Tin Whiskers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: LektroiD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 12:41:45 am
content: A few years ago I found a series of videos, each about a minute long talking about tin-whiskers caused by Lead-Free solder and the effects they have. I was wondering if anyone has any more information on this, or links to videos about this phenomenon. I'll link what I have below, but seems this is the only videos ever been made about it. I wonder which documentary these are from...

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 01:05:34 am
content: That's the narrator voice from Modern Marvels, History Channel.It seems much of the lead-free scare hasn't come to pass. Although lead-free processes must be more tightly controlled, the end product (of good processing) is *enhanced* reliability. It is a stronger differentiator, so that poorly controlled processes tend to fail more readily (which was the problem documented there).Not to say it's not a concern; it certainly is. But it also hasn't produced the "sky is falling" results that it was claimed to; consumer crap continues to be thrown out in the 90 days to 3 years timescale that it has always been, and things that randomly last longer than that.Tim

author: KD0CAC John
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 01:18:15 am
content: Here is a NASA study I found yrs. ago , a PDF if you want .http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 01:23:43 am
content: funny, spending $10 Millions per major electronic OEM and causing avionics failures, a nuke power plant shutdown isn't a "problem" - when the environmental protection goals could have been met/exceeded at lower cost with a rational regime?http://paris.utdallas.edu/IEEE-RS-ATR/document/2008/2008-19.pdf

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 01:26:56 am
content: Between RoHS and bad caps, I think we've got the diagnosis for 75% of all electronics failures in the last 10 years.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 05:16:47 am
content: Well, look at it this way - if one more person is killed by failed electronics due to whiskers, one less person is available to die of lead poisoning. So, we are gaining ground.Talking about death is upsadding. I need some comfort food. Where is my roll of rosin flavored solder? That pine gum taste really takes the edge off.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 07:55:34 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 05, 2015, 05:16:47 amIt is, it is indeed.On an upcheering note, you have embiggened our vocabularistic repertoire with your cromulent neologism.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 04:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on May 05, 2015, 07:55:34 amOh, well, error on my part! This one I "corrected" from the correct word to the wrong one. Very careless of me. While this is only a forum, looking stupid is... well, stupid.Your criticism is well grounded. I do think I would have benefited had I learned English better. While my career (in the USA) was ok, but I know I could have done better had I wrote better. Sometimes, particularly when I am tired or in too much of a hurry, my writing really make me look stupid.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 04:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on May 05, 2015, 07:55:34 amMetaphorically speaking cromulent is such a confusicating term with such embiggenment!

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 05, 2015, 04:31:33 pmIt wasn't a criticism - more of an appreciative jest. I do happen to think that upsadding is a fine word - cromulent, in fact

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:21:16 pm
content: Spoilers: "cromulent" and "embiggening" are from The Simpsons.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:27:39 pm
content: Tin isn't the only metal with whisker growth issues. Zinc and cadmium were causing trouble in electrical and electronic equipment before it was even realised that tin could also form whiskers. I've seen some amazing bundles of whiskers on zinc coatings that looked like grey cotton wool.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:46:49 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 05, 2015, 06:21:16 pmWell, theywerefrom The Simpsons. Since their debut there in 1996 they have started cropping up in print, possibly to show that the author is a happening kind of dude(tte). Nothing wrong with neologisms - Shakespeare was a prolific source, of course (of course).Back on topic, it does seem weird that after all the study devoted to them we still don't know the mechanism of whisker formation.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:59:33 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 05, 2015, 06:27:39 pmAlso "dendritic silver" is a whisker growth issue in certain situations.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 07:11:40 pm
content: We know quite a bit more about whiskers nowadays -- new research, that has lifted everyone up, so that from the highest NASA papers (linked earlier) to the lowliest of programs (also linked earlier), we now understand at least a little more, and what to do about it.I would suggest looking for references since 2012. Those NASA docs for example are 2009ish, and mostly reference materials even older (2000s and less). Should be plenty from, like, IPC, IEEE, etc. out there? (No, I don't have any to hand, unfortunately.)If you're looking to get products manufactured, and your choice is leaded, or a lead-free process and formula that's unchanged since 2000... I'd go with lead any day. Such are the same processes documented in those papers.Tim

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 10:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 05, 2015, 07:11:40 pmTrouble is, we have a generation of folks programmed to think not only lead free, but that lead is evil - to the point they are worried about breathing lead-fume during soldering. And of course they have no idea about the reliability impact.

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 10:32:32 pm
content: and in hiRel applications allowing lead it is now difficult to obtain parts - many now have to stripped, coated outside of the OEM process controls

author: LektroiD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 11:42:11 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 05, 2015, 10:07:19 pmI'll always use 60/40. I'm more concerned with breathing flux than lead fumes (that's if such a thing as 'lead fumes' exist)...In a sense, RoHS is way worse when it comes to all the failed electronic waste in landfills. RoHS solder seems pointless anyway, it's not like the consumers are going to open their new TV and lick the PCB.There's a lot worse substances being used than a little lead in solder to prevent whisker shorts, unless planned obsolescence is the agenda...

author: savril
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 11:44:41 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 05, 2015, 10:07:19 pmMy concern is not to breath lead, due to the heavy mass of lead, it's unlikely to breath a signifiant amount of lead I think.My concern is more about that :https://www.google.fr/search?q=african+computer+recycle&biw=998&bih=761&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=kVJJVev6Hc_base1gYgB&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQThere also on youtube videos from stupid people on how to get gold by melting chips. Not only there's the lead problem but there's also the halide which turn into dioxin while burning. Due to corrupt people, a significant amout of electronic waste will end burning like this and polluting for a long time a foreign country.I do my part by not using leaded solder and I don't suffer from unacceptable bad soldering and I don't care if I may have tin whisker problem in 5-10 years, my design will probably be totally out of date by then. This make my life easier as I don't have to write in my testament "Please handle my electronic with care and send them to a proper recycle facility".

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 12:12:13 am
content: Quote from: LektroiD on May 05, 2015, 11:42:11 pmThat is exactly my point. Lead doesn't evaporate at that low a temperature, but their phobia caused them to overlook the obvious (flux fumes) and instead scared to death of lead fume which is impossible at such a low temperature.Might as well worry about lightning strikes while soldering. That is at least more probable than lead fume.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 12:28:37 am
content: Quote from: savril on May 05, 2015, 11:44:41 pmLead in solder doesn't evaporate at such low temperature. There is no chance lead-vapor can form and there is no possibly you can breath any "lead fume" in.It is not merely unlikely. It is impossible!Imagine worry about steam burn because a dog walked into the swimming pool. The dog's body temperature is warmer than water. But even if a million dogs walked into the swimming pool, the warmth from that million dogs will not boil the water.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 12:39:10 am
content: Well, let's not bestupidhere.Any use of lead products inevitably produces dust, too. Wiping or striking off the soldering iron produces small globs and dust. It's not much, but it's more than zero.Keep your work area separate from your eating area, and wash your hands inbetween.Tim

author: savril
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 01:30:17 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 06, 2015, 12:28:37 amIt's not that simple I think. If you look at your solder workspace, you'll see lot of little spots of solder balls more than 20 cm away from you solder area (depends on how much flux used). When I solder small SMT, I tend to be close to the PCB. There's a chance that nano part of lead will be pushed by hot air from boiling flux and that you can breathe it (because the force from evaporating flux may be enough to push small lead spheres). Boiling flux may be more likely to make lead jump from the board to your mouth. I'm not a lot educated in physics of materials but I think it may be possible. However the amount of contaminant involved in this case seems marginal I think.That's why I'm more concerned about flux for the people doing the soldering (which you can hardly get any information from any solder or flux manufacturer, secret recipe if it is not pure rosin).

author: PeterFW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 02:31:58 am
content: About "lead fumes" and "breathing in" lead...Lead boils at way, way every imgainable temperature that is used to solder.I do not know about the details but if the boiling point is around 1700° it can not be that much that gets airborne at 400°C (worst case).There are a great number of people who regularly breath in real "lead fumes" and oxides. In moderation with proper ventilation but no respirators.I am one myself and i do not know annyone who has had problems with that, even all the folks way past 75, all still alive.Some claim to have had the doctors check their levels and they claim they were rather high, but folks talk all kind of crazy talk if they think they "know stuff".And none of them had signs of lead posioning.Edit:Ok, lets say "acute lead posioning", today people are all wonky in the head annyway, maybe that is caused by long time lead exposureYes, lead is a tad bad for you but not nearly as much as you think, at least over two to three generations. Maybe future generations will walk around with a third arm, who knows.Water contamination through lead in the soil is very, very unlikely.I know a few contaminated areas were the ground water regularely checked, not a single problem.One heavily contaminated local forrest has even been declared a wildlife preserve to my knowledge, because all the little critters and plants are very happy to live there because filthy humans dont bother them and are all healthy...

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 03:37:05 am
content: In short, lead is toxic. The main problem isn't immediate death. The problem is that continued exposure causes long term health and mental developmental problems - particularly in children.For anyone who doubts the human health effects of chronic lead exposure, you are hereby cordially invited to our nearby Superfund Cleanup site at Kellogg, Idaho, USA. In the 1980's, the children tested there has the highest blood concentrations of lead in the world. Many of those exposed are still there today. Come see the results and feel free to arrive at your own conclusions.We also have a bonus side trip! We'll go for a bike ride down the valley from the cleanup site where you can see acre after acre of dead swans - who die from eating the lead-laden mud that covers the tubers that are a food source.---------Please do not interpret the above as an endorsement of RoHS.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:01:01 am
content: I'm not sure what Germany's history of lead use is like (depending on how far back you go, as well), so you may well have a different perspective than the situation in the US, or other places.Lead exposure (principally via paint -- babies put their mouths on literally *everything* -- and via soil, and things growing out of that soil) has been correlated pretty strongly with increased aggression and poverty. The correlation is spacial (i.e., between areas with and without such conditions) and temporal (they were worse when lead was used regularly, and have dropped considerably since lead was banned in the sources -- paint pigments and gasoline).In most areas, water is a very low risk indeed, even considering some water mains are original lead pipe. The reason is, calcium, carbonate and sulfate ions in the hard water in these locations keep the lead insoluble, where it remains as a corrosion resistant surface inside (and outside) the pipe. In areas with different water chemistry (more organics, acidity or salinity, I think?), lead can be dissolved in the water, and the water mains must be investigated and replaced.There's no such thing as "acute lead poisoning" -- well, I'm sure there IS, but it's not the problem. The problem is *chronic*, and the problem is worst when the bones are growing rapidly (where serum lead co-precipitates with calcium, with a half life of years to decades), which are also the most formative years for the brain. Biological absorption via ingestion (includes inhalation, by swallowing sputum) ranges from ~10% in adults to 50-90% in children growing rapidly.Lead is not a potent carcinogen, and no one will spontaneously grow a third arm (or be at greater risk of bearing children with additional appendages) as a result of its exposure.The hazard is real, and joking it away flippantly is not only hurtful to its victims, but insensitive to those who actually suffer fromdeformities as a result of other chemical exposures.Tim

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:05:53 am
content: Referring to iatrogenic poisoning incidents as "chemical exposures" is beyond bizarre.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:18:32 am
content: The issue with water contamination not being a major problem is misleading. Downstream of our superfund site, while *dissolved* lead concentrations in water are not a huge concern, the water will transport a red froth that consists mainly of iron which combines with lead, mercury and cadmium. That froth coats the banks of the river downstream, creating a toxic scum for animals and the unwary.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:25:31 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 06, 2015, 04:18:32 amI was speaking of established drinking water systems; around superfund sites, mine tailings, and so on, the runoff can get quite nasty, as you say, both from dissolved or suspended contents!Tim

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:56:58 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 06, 2015, 04:25:31 amTim,I agree with what you said. I'm actually referring to Peter's comments prior to yours. Sorry for not quoting. We are on the same page. It is just nothing to laugh off anymore. The evidence of the consequences of chronic metals exposure is so well documented and observable by the layperson, that there is no point in further debate upon the matter.The debate over the merits of RoHS is a different animal. I would choose to add a little lead back in, and simultaneously push for the right to repair and recycling. The reality is that mining, not disposal is the real source of most contamination.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:09:46 am
content: Re lead and soldering, there is a real study of frequent solderers in qex which showed NO increase in blood lead of those who use lead solder. Other fumes worry me more, flux not much, some of the plasticisers are more worrying. Fresh moving air is pretty good!

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 11:31:04 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on May 06, 2015, 05:09:46 amI've read a few people say that leaded solder alloys somehow don't dissolve well in humans, but I don't know of any evidence to back it up. I'm heavily sceptical -- can anyone find a (publicly available) study/findings/etc ?

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 11:58:49 am
content: If you 'eat' leaded solder long term you will get in trouble I am pretty sure, hand washing works very well. The lead in solder I don't think is in an amalgam like the mercury in teeth filling amalgam. So I think the lead in leaded solder is bio-available, poor absorption but even poorer elimination ie accumulation.I have treated a young man with acute cns lead toxicity from sniffing leaded petrol (many years ago). I don't know the composition of the 'lead' in petrol but it must be volatile enough to get inhaled into both engines and blood!

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 02:42:59 pm
content: Tin is not exactly good for you if ingested in any way.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_poisoning.The stupidest thing I have heard from the anti lead brigade is the removal of all lead from the bullets fired by the British army, as if having been hit by such a projectile you would be concerned by the lead content.

author: PeterFW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 03:08:20 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 06, 2015, 04:01:01 amI know, i know... and i know the differences and effect of long time lead exposure.That stuff is very bad for your, yes.We should remember, all the fuss about lead was caused by problems on a industrial scale before we knew and cared about what the real dangers of long time exposure are.We threw that stuff at and in everything, in walls, on roofs, in paint, water lines, industrial waste dumped in the ocean...That was bad, very bad indeed.And that was not what my comment was about.I was speaking about fishermen, hunters, sculpters, historic building maintenence, home soldering... everything were we use lead on a small scale basis, in "big chunks".There, the occasional lead exposure is no problem as long as you do not eat it, put your head over the smelting pot and take deep breaths and wash your hands afterwards.Yes, "no problem" is of course the wrong phrase.But today everything has been proven to be bad for you or give you cancer.As long as you use some common sense, you will be good.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 03:40:59 pm
content: Tin whiskers are only a small problem. Read up on CAF ( cathodic-anodic filament ) in circuit boards ... or dendrite formation on the surface due to insufficient flux removal. a drop of water can produce a hard metallic dendrite in like 12 seconds flat ...same goes for conformal coating. let's slap it on ... without sufficiently decontaminated surface : a nightmare waiting to happen . i just had a 2 day training on that stuff.. hair raising what kind of defects occur.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 07:16:29 pm
content: Had a second-hand customer where they were having failures.The circuit was poorly drawn to begin with. I don't know what they were thinking when they "designed" and reviewed this. But alas, that was years ago, many engineers past, and a corporate restructuring (of my client, not the end customer).Looking at the claimed failure mode, I was stumped. There should be no way that can happen, even given that the circuit is nonsense. (On a related note: an op-amp will read somewhere between 0V and VCC at its output, when its inputs are shorted together. How much (input offset) varies with board flex!)Talking with another engineer who's more involved with the customer, I learn they don't wash their boards. Hoo boy. Oh, and they use conductive flux, so if there's anything nearby at all, basically every node in the circuit is about 100kohms apart, maximum.Oh, and the customer also wants this to pass environmental. It's not passing (surprised?), so they're just going to glop conformal on it and call it a day.!!It gets better...said customer has their production in-house. Which sounds like a good thing, right? Ah, but you see... they don't want to add a wash step, because it's extra time "wasted". And they don't want to change fluxes or processes, because... who the fuck knows.(There's not been one conversation about this customer where I've gotten a sense that they have a freaking clue what they're doing. It's just bizarre that such a mess can survive. And for years, at that!)Tim

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 09:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 06, 2015, 03:37:05 amKellogg site is a mining site. How something is mined is independent of how that something is used. One can mine very clean stuff in a very dirty way.There is no disagreement that lead is toxic link many other heavy metal. The issue really is how lead in solder affects users and how disposal of used-electronics affects residents near disposal sites. In this discussion, user is the solderer but not the end-user of the electronics.I don't mind reasonable approach to ensure environmentally friendliness. I do object to single minded absolutist approach. Absolutist often come up with approach with far costly down-stream impact than the original pollutant.Beyond environment impact, we also have to be concerned about financial impact. Would a clean environment do more for the people verses having heated homes in the winter freeze? Cost increase reduces living standard, that is simple arithmetic. Dirty environment reduces life expectancy, that is common sense. So one must seek a reasonable balance. Absolutist fails to see the negative so simply ignore the negative. That is what I object to. I agree with their goal, I just object to their purest approach.Risk exists all around us. We just need to be reasonable about it.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 09:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 06, 2015, 09:19:29 pmI'm arguing for reasonableness as well. I brought up the example because the toxicity of environmental lead was questioned. To flippantly dismiss metals toxicity as has been mentioned is not reasonable. Nor is the opposite extreme of shutting down civilization. So, we use common sense and good science to make good compromises to protect human and environmental health.I solder with lead. I also respect its toxicity.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 10:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 06, 2015, 09:49:56 pmActually, your "arguing for reasonableness" came through well. I was quoting you in agreement.I point out that site being a mining site to "pre-emp" (as in preemptive) it from being use as "see what you leaded solder cost..."

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 12:38:06 am
content: Gotcha Rick. Yup, that would be a logical fallacy best left unsyllogized.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 11:45:34 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 05, 2015, 06:21:16 pmA noble heart embiggens the smallest man.Interestingly "embiggens" was in my phones dictionary and I didn't have to override the autocorrect.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 04:20:34 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 08, 2015, 11:45:34 amHa, you guys are still on "cromulent" and "embiggening". I had to look up the dictionary to find out what that two words mean.Usually, when I made up a word, my excuse is English is not my first language. But this time, it was plain carelessness on my part. Such carelessness is some what "upsadding"...

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 07:30:28 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 05, 2015, 06:21:16 pmI, for one, welcome our new linguistic overlords.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 09:02:16 pm
content: That was interesting, I never knew about this phenomenon. Could it be the cause of random failures in stuff like computer equipment? Tin whiskers on the motherboard, or cpu etc? Though given their size I would have thought they'd just short and burn and the circuit would continue to operate. I guess if it happens on a logic level circuit then it wont have enough power going through it to burn.I think I might remember that satellite incident too... I just remember one time as a kid, the TV and lot of stuff was not working and it was to do with satellites, though I remember it being more drastic and involving multiple satellites so not sure if it's another incident I'm thinking of.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 09:31:19 pm
content: The US Environmental Protection Agency evaluated 63/37 against several lead-free solders in a total life-cycle assessment of environmental and health effects. They found that leaded solder presents a greater risk to personnel who handle the material, due to the toxic effects of lead. However, the lead-free SAC solder was found to be most damaging to the environment and public health in 10 out of 16 categories including global warming, ozone depletion, acid rain, and public health-cancer.http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-12/documents/lead_free_solder_lca_summary.pdf

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 10:49:34 pm
content: Tin whiskers are real, and have caused real failures. Not often. Even when they occur they mostly just blow clear with only momentary effects. They matter when you are doing medical, industrial or military equipment where any failure may cause loss of life. Not so much of a problem for consumer and hobby and even automotive electronics where poor reliability is accepted.Lead toxicity is real, but the dangers are wildly overblown. When a shooting club I belonged to was shut down there was a movement to do a full hazardous waste treatment on the range, which was in a national forest recreation area. Those pushing expressed concern that hikers and animals would be endangered merely by walking through the area. As a defense against the expense, two employees of the club, who had walked and worked on the range six days a week for more than twenty five years were tested. These same two persons also were ammunition reloaders who frequently cast bullets and handled huge quantities of lead shot. They also were game hunters who fairly regularly ate birds which had been shot with lead shot. The results; their blood levels of lead were not only below acceptable limits, but below detectable limits.It takes real effort to get lead poisoning. You have to eat and chew on lead based paint, or have lived next to a major superhighway with high traffic before lead was eliminated from gasoline, or eat acidic foods of and out of certain lead containing pottery daily for a long time, or something similar. The Romans used lead very widely and unwisely and it still took centuries for the effects to catch up with them.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2015, 08:06:40 am
content: Main cause for the Roman lead poisoning was the method they used to make sweet wine, which involved storing the wine in lead lined vats, which dissolved into the wine creating a sweet tasting lead salt.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome_and_winehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%28II%29_acetate

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2015, 10:28:42 pm
content: Yep. Sweet wine. Lead glazes on pottery with a nice acid fish sauce. And all of the plumbing was lead. Not to mention lead and pewter dining ware. Still wasn't very effective in killing them off. Took the help of barbarians to the north and a few other problems.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2015, 02:30:29 am
content: And like I said, there are lead water mains still in use in the "civilized" world today -- as long as the corrosion stays in place, insoluble and protective, who's the wiser -- and who cares?Tim

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2015, 06:42:25 am
content: More than 70% of the piping feeding water in the city are still asbestos cement pipes, they are slowly changing them out to polypropylene piping in areas where the leakage rate is too high, using an in place method with the new piping pulled in to the old one after the casing is fractured by a hydraulic ram. Also has the added benefit of removing all the undocumented water connections, as they only connect to the meters on the record afterwards.Does not work though in the CBD, as there the water mains are half meter diameter concrete, and fixing a leak can mean you dig up the road for 100m or more till you get a pipe end that does not break on removal of the old section. One leak took them a week of doing that 24 hours a day till they got one that was not brittle. Then new pipe sections, and finally redo all the water connections using a collar and drill to penetrate the pipe.