Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 03:04:56 pm
content: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019? Why?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 03:07:39 pm
content: I still use an analog scope - because I know it, and for many tasks it's sufficient. So there was not enough need to buy a DSO.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 03:18:18 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on July 30, 2019, 03:04:56 pmWhy does 001 post random topics they almost never contribute to? I'm only calling you out due to the sheer volume of post where I see you do this.I honestly think you would be happier posting on the website: reddit.com. There are no "up votes" here.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 03:21:12 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on July 30, 2019, 03:18:18 pmWhy so angry? I post service manuals schematics etc. for membersBut I have questions too

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 03:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on July 30, 2019, 03:04:56 pmNope, never anymore.Why do you ask is more important ?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:01:18 pm
content: It is not that i "still" use them, they are primary tools in my shack, as i deal with RF stuff, analog scopes give best buck per MHz.

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:04:20 pm
content: 9 analog scopes vs 1 DSO. I think that answers your question.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:05:51 pm
content: Nope. When I got my first DSO, a HP 54510A, and I tried it I was so impressed with it that Igaveaway all of the analog scopes that I had and I've never looked back. I had very expensive HP 1726A analog storage scope and we'd been trying for weeks to catch a fast pulse in a flash lamp circuit and could never catch it but the FIRST time that we tried the 54510 it caught it. We turned around and ordered a second HP 54510 that very same day.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 30, 2019, 03:51:17 pmI use one. But is it time to upgrade to DSO now?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on July 30, 2019, 04:06:47 pmHow could I know ?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:14:28 pm
content: Dave made a somewhat relevant video.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:17:28 pm
content: It depends on what you're doing. If you're just looking for a waveform and your analog is fast enough then it's fine. But if you want to store the waveform or to measure it's parameters then a DSO is much easier to use, particularly on single shot events. Even the almost 20 year old HP 545510 will quickly and easily measure frequency, period, peak voltage, RMS average, risetime, and a number of other parameters. The leCroy 935x scopes that I now mostly use will also give you FFTs, power measurements and other very sophisticated math operations.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on July 30, 2019, 03:04:56 pmThe main reason I use one is it was cheap and second hand off ebay.It does most of what I want although recently I have been getting into +20MHz signals and its a bit slow for that.I actually design USB PC oscilloscopes.So if I need something to store waveforms I use one of those.You can pick up a USB PC scope off ebay for peanuts now.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:21:26 pm
content: I still use one occasionally, my primary scopes are DSOs but the XY mode on my analog scope blows away every DSO I've tried for that purpose.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:21:50 pm
content: Back in the early 1990s, when the DSO's record length wasn't deep enough (unless one paid a fortune) I was also designing analog-TV baseband circuits.To properly see the chroma burst and static pattern in the active video, one had to use an analog scope.Not any scope, but one which had advanced TV triggering capabilities, i.e. trigger from a specific line. But the resulting display was very dim.For that reason, Tektronix and other manufacturers also sold waveform monitors, which were specialized scopes for the purpose of viewing analog TV signals, see attached image.Then Tektronix came out with the VM700, one of the first all-digital waveform monitor.Ever since I first used the VM700 in perhaps 1995, I have never again used an analog scope.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:31:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 30, 2019, 04:21:26 pmVery true, analog scopes are unbeatable for making curve tracers and the like.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on July 30, 2019, 04:21:50 pmThat was the problem that we had when trying to use the 1726 analog storage scope to catch the pulse to a flash lamp. We could keep tinkering and finally get it to trigger but the pulse was so narrow and so dim that you couldn't see it on the display.

author: maxwell3e10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 04:49:20 pm
content: In my self-imposed challenge of doing hobby electronics on lowest possible budget, my home setup is a used analog scope ($50) and an LHT00SU1 USB logic analyzer/1 ch scope ($25)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on July 30, 2019, 04:06:47 pmYes on Tuesdays, no on Thursdays.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:09:17 pm
content: My usual unit is analog. If I need more careful analysis I break out the digital. In summation, the digital gets used very little.The analog is 150 MHz and the digital 500 MHz. Nice thing, the analog is smaller.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on July 30, 2019, 04:17:28 pmCapturing single shot events is theonlykiller use-case for digitising scopes. Everything else is down to convenience and cost.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:15:21 pm
content: Quote from: bob91343 on July 30, 2019, 05:09:17 pmReally ?Other way around here.This, my only working CRO (15 MHz) is bigger than my 500 MHz DSO.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:16:35 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 05:11:18 pmDecoding digital signals while viewing the waveforms, FFT, math, capturing waveforms for further processing on the PC. I could name a few.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:30:08 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 30, 2019, 05:16:35 pmA logic analyser is better for that.QuoteSpectrum analyser or modulation domain analyser are better for that.QuoteCan be done using other techniques (see before digitising scopes were usable), but convenience is a factor!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:42:13 pm
content: Convenience is a huge factor. If you value your time even just slightly having the ability to do something easily is a huge boon. With patience and skill most things can be done with basic tools, but our time on this planet is limited. Oscilloscopes are a means and generally not an end and being able to do something the hard way doesn't mean wanting to it that way every time. Obviously FFT could be done better but typically at a huge cost. It's generally many times the price of a decent oscilloscope. Having basic FFT capabilities in a device already on your desk can be quite beneficial. Logic analysers don't always display the analogue waveform in which case it can be hard to troubleshoot your issue if it's to do with signal integrity. Having MSO capabilities to correlate analogue and digital can be very useful.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:48:38 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 30, 2019, 05:42:13 pmAnd with that we return to my statement, which you have chosen to snipp in your latest post, viz: "Capturing single shot events is the only killer use-case for digitising scopes. Everything else is down to convenience and cost."I'm glad you agree with me.QuoteLAs never display the analogue waveform; they interpret the analogue waveform as a digital signal, then post-process and display the digital signal.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 05:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 05:48:38 pmIt's true for FFT indeed. In the other cases the alternatives seem to be inferior. Or if you want to turn it around, catching single shot events is ultimately a matter of convenience too. You just have to be patient trying to catch that one glitch on a CRO mucking about with film and exposure times.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:06:57 pm
content: Happily I use both, have a 500Mhz mso which is really great for many applications, as has been said on the thread it is convenient and has many other features also takes up less space than my 400Mhz analogue tekky, but there is something satisfying about using a analogue scope.Quality FFT? sorry Spectrum Analyzer by a country mile, I appreciate cost here is a factor, and understand that aspect however as an SME I can justify a certain amount of outlay for a given project. I require accurate repeatable and reliable results.Having a real time analyzer is also very useful, something unless you have an uber Tekky six figure + cutting edge scope and the matching probes etc then its all just willy waving unless you are a large multi national aerospace / telecommunications company etcEverything has its place and my analogue scope is staying

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 05:48:38 pmI had an old HP1631C (I think) that had two scope channels built in. These could be synchronous with the digital. For work we had an old HP16500 (I think) that also had two scope channels. It was modular, so I assume you could add more if needed. The specs on it were not bad, unlike my old 1631C (or what ever it was). I would imagine Keysight still offers such boards for their state of the art SAs.Back on topic...Quote from: 001 on July 30, 2019, 03:04:56 pmI currently have 4 old scopes at home, not including my handheld Flukes. These are all digital. I havn't used an analog scope at home in maybe 10 years after I gave mine away. For work, I would guess it's closer to 35 years since I have seen one. But I also havn't used an analog VOM in about that same amount of time.

author: scuzzyTerminator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:27:44 pm
content: I still use my Tek 547 to warm my room in the cold months. Seriously.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:29:26 pm
content: Horses for courses. I use one of each. My Analogue is a 250MHz Tek475A and my DSO is a VDS1022I (100Msps, 25MHZ).For me, I tend to find that anything high frequency that I want to look at is repetitive and anything that I want to single-shot capture is lower frequency. Anything else is handled by the logic analyser (after I've looked at the quality of the signals with the Tek).Usually I just reach up and pull the power button on the Tek 475A if I want to look at something.I can't afford/justify anything digital that would match the 250MHz bandwidth of the Tek.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:33:16 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 30, 2019, 06:21:49 pmThat's a single box with two completely different instruments in it! Useful, but doesn't change the pointQuote(Background: in the 90s I used high-end boat-anchor digitising scopes and knew some of the people that designed their front ends).Until recentlyaffordabledigitising scopes were in many cases inferior in one way or another to analogue scopes. You onlychoseto use them to capture single-shot events, where they were usually better than analogue storage scopes (may they rot in hell!).My major objection is to people that say analogue scopes are useless and chould be ignored.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on July 30, 2019, 06:29:26 pmThat's a good summary of a sound development and debugging strategy.It divides the problems into sensible categories, uses the strength of each tool, and covers a tool's weakness by other tools' strengths. Horses for courses indeed.But I prefer my Tek 485; it has a real 50ohm input, not these rubbish 50ohm//15pF inputs

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 06:47:59 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 05:48:38 pmOne could argue about what constitutes a logic analyser, but all current Saleae models have analogue capabilities on all channels. Older models had mostly digital and some analogue channels. We see this overlapping of traditional specialised devices more and more. As technology advances the limitations that lead to the creation of several discrete devices blur. The recent Keithley DMMs are arguable fancy single channel oscilloscopes and are probably more capable than some of the actual single channel oscilloscopes of yesteryear.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:29:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 30, 2019, 04:21:26 pmI made ths screenshot from my RTB 2004 in X-Y Mode. No idea, what's wrong with that.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:40:30 pm
content: Yes, it is the only thing I have for now.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 07:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: BU508A on July 30, 2019, 07:29:56 pmIt doesn't look that great to me (maybe if C2 was higher amplitude and less noisy). If that's the best it can do on a simple phase shifted sinewave then I wouldn't want to use if for any sort of complex X-Y function.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 08:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 30, 2019, 06:47:59 pmCan I suggest you use the quote button above the top of a post, if you want readers to understandwhyyou are saying something.The definition of a logic analyser is standard.I have no idea what "analogue capabilities" might mean. If it means post-processing and combining several digital signals and interpreting them as a number, then that is most definitely not the point I was making.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 08:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 30, 2019, 07:14:06 pmNobodywantedthat! We used it because it was the only technology available.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 08:47:09 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 08:16:22 pmI am using the quote button, just cutting out the unnecessary clutter and repetition. The definition of a logic analyser isn't as clear-cut as one would think, hence my example of the Saleae logic analysers. This generation can display analogue signals on all channels and the previous generation could display a few analogue signals along the digital ones, blurring the line between oscilloscopes and logic analysers the same way many other instruments are blurring the lines between their instrument type and adjacent types.https://www.saleae.com/

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 08:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on July 30, 2019, 07:49:00 pmThe distinct lack of a better XY function on even rather expensive digital oscilloscopes suggests it is adequate for real world usage.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 08:19:17 pmAt the time, I was glad to have a bolt on Polaroid camera for storage. Phosphor storage so I could actually see an event was huge. I was also impressed with the IBM PC, no more whiteout. We had one DSO for the entire department but it wasn't reliable and Tektronix had it more than we did. That thing was some huge monster mainframe with an external keypad. I think it was 100MHz which at the time was far beyond any thing we were working on.For home, I had made a record playback system to at least be able to look at some events. It was never fast enough. That 1631D was a big step up but I kept my analog scope as it was better for a lot of things I was doing. The 1631D only had two channels, vs my Hitachi with 4. Hitachi had digital readouts for period, frequency and phase. It also had lower noise. But the HP had an external dual disk drive and I had a printer for it. I dare say it was a 50:50 split in those days which one I used.Looks like BK still offers an analog scope. I wonder who makes the tubes for them.https://www.bkprecision.com/products/oscilloscopes/2120C-30-mhz-dual-trace-analog-oscilloscope-with-probes.html

author: dcbrown73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:09:50 pm
content: I use a DSO. I would like to have an analog scope for those few use cases where it makes the most sense. Two scopes would take up a lot of space on my bench. I could make room, but unless I have to. I would rather not. I can use the other space for a lot of other things.Thus far in my short time span of my electronics hobby, my DSO has done everything I've required.The only piece of test equipment I have more than one "bench version" of on my bench, is power supplies. (I have multiple DMMs, but only one bench version)

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:29:38 pm
content: Oh, boy! I had forgotten about the Polaroid scope camera, and taping the photos to reports.Unless one was very familiar with exposure settings and brightness setups for both the traces and graticule, it would take at least a couple of attempts to obtain the desired photo.And..........If the scope did not have an on-screen display of the vertical and horizontal scale settings, you better not forget to write them down!Been there, done that.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:36:44 pm
content: I use both, becauseMy DSO is 100MHz it only has two channels but all kinds of analysis and trigger options enabled,my analog scope is 500MHz and has four channels

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:38:30 pm
content: I still keep my analog Russian 2x20 MHzhttp://danyk.cz/c1-118_en.htmlbecause it is galvanic isolated from the mains, so once or twice a year might come in handy. Yet, didn't powered it up for a couple of years now since I am using the digital Rigol DS1054Z.One thing that analog oscs still shine is XY mode, which still surpass any digital ones, especially when you need XY mode with intensity variations.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 09:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 30, 2019, 08:47:09 pmYou are snipping thecontext, and context is important. Exactly what constitutes context is a matter of taste, but there are commonly accepted bounds.This forum isn't stackexchange, thankfully. Stackexchange actively discourages context, which means the threads are limited to "which button do I press to frobnitze the squirdle", and prevents interesting discussions of subtle points.QuoteIf the 555 timer is a direct representation of a digitised analogue voltage, then it is an oscilloscope display.It is completely irrelevant whether the oscilloscope display is intermingled with a logic analogue display - they are still two completely different instruments.By your contention, you believe that the screenshot below means that there is a "blurring of the lines" between clocks, discs, processors, memory, networks and thermometers! I think that's ridiculous.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 10:15:04 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 09:53:19 pmNone of the context is removed. The message to which was responded is included in the response. None of the actual context can be removed or altered by me, as it is both cemented and easily found in the thread. Few people seem unable to cope with cutting the repetition out. I don't think there are any well defined rules about what an instrument is called based on what properties. The archetypes keep evolving with technology. The new Keithley DMM range would be another example of the lines blurring. These devices can display voltage measurements over time in real time and has more advanced triggering options than most oscilloscopes. Is it an oscilloscope? Is it a DMM?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 10:32:15 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 30, 2019, 10:15:04 pmSigh. Do youreallythink context is the last post and the last post alone? It seems you would feel at home on stack exchange.Toreiteratethe point, including only the last post removes the context in which the last post was made.QuoteSo, youdocontend that my screenshot indicates that there is a "blurring of the lines" between clocks, discs, processors, memory, networks and thermometers! Bizarre.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 10:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 10:32:15 pmI've neither confirmed nor denied that assertion. Do you contend the new Keithley DMM, DAQ and SMU ranges are actually oscilloscopes? Who controls these definitions for each device type and where can they be found? It seems you'd end up like biologists, desperately trying to come up with definitions that'll lead to discrete species but being thwarted by nature every time

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 30, 2019, 10:39:00 pmIgnoring counter examples never looks good.QuoteI'm afraid I don't keep abreast of all manufacturers latest products displaying incremental changes from previous products, so I can't comment on the Keithley products. But do they market and sell them as oscilloscopes? What are their triggering facilities?Having said that, most people would agree on the key distinctions between an oscilloscope and a logic analyser: one captures analogue waveforms, the other interprets analogue waveforms as digital signals and filter and post-process those digital signals.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2019, 11:29:04 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 30, 2019, 11:12:15 pmThe difference between your example and mine is that the Saleae devices are explicitly marketed as a logic analyser and clearly were incrementally developed from other logic analysers. The Keithleys are marketed as DMMs, but have the ability to display voltages continuously over time at 1MS/s. They also possess triggering capabilities like the triggering on rising or falling edges commonly found in oscilloscopes. Those elements are arguably what historically defined oscilloscopes. Advances in technology blur the lines and change already loose definitions.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 01:21:05 am
content: I will bite. I have several analog oscilloscopes and digital storage oscilloscopes but will mostly discuss my 2232 in analog mode:1. It was only $120. Of course at this price you have to be prepared to refurbish the instrument yourself.2. The display and controls operate in real time. REAL TIME! Do you know what that means? Latency for either never spikes. I never have to wait for the oscilloscope to respond to my next action or second guess it.3. It boots in 7 seconds in analog or DSO mode.4. The display was a retina display, in analog or digital mode, before Apple invented it.5. The analog grading means it can make RMS noise measurements in analog mode of voltage or time using the tangent method reliably and to good accuracy. I have used this to verify that DSOs are measuring RMS noise correctly and to make spot noise measurements.6. The response of the automatic peak-to-peak triggering mode is fantastic and not duplicated in any DSO and few analog oscilloscopes since. Automatic peak-to-peak triggering also tracks signal levels continuously. This means no waiting when moving a probe between signals for the display to stabilize. Later oscilloscopes, including analog oscilloscopes from Tektronix, implement automatic level triggering which is pitifully slow in comparison.7. The transient response is excellent. This is a time domain instrument so this is what matters.Nothing prevents a modern low cost DSO from doing most of the above except programming.(1) And analog storage and analog sampling and digital sampling oscilloscopes but let us keep things simple.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 01:33:14 am
content: I have two DSOs. All the rest are analog, and analog is what I tend to use more often than not. Main workhorses are a Tek 2246 and a 2465A; if I use a digital it's normally my TDS 3032. Older tube-type Teks get played with occasionally for fun and variety (and more in the winter). 7000 series are waiting in the queue to eventually be wrung out and go into the rotation. And I just got an HP 140A last week.-Pat

author: graybeard
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 03:36:46 am
content: For my home lab I use my500 MHz 7904Awhenever I want to look at signals that are too fast or not viewable for other reasons with mySiglent SDS1104X-E.Where I work we no longer have analog scopes available in the pool. I currently have a 300MHz R&S RTB2004 checked out which is an excellent scope, and have access to many models from Tek and Keysight. A few weeks ago I used a Keysight 15 GHz model.I have a 1GHz (500 MHz in the 7904A)7A2950 Ohm plugin with 800ps rise time. I also have 27A26 200MHz dual channel plug-ins, a7A11 250 MHz FET probe plug-in, alate-model 7A13 105 MHz differential input plug-in, a7D11 digital delay, a7B92 500ps/div time basethat is the best triggering time-base I have used in any analog scope, and a7B50 time basethat is very easy to adjust for low frequency signals.Before I bought the Siglent, I only used the 7904A. Since I bought the Siglent, it is the scope I primarily use at home. However the old TEK has capabilities that I still need and use, especially with the special purpose plug-ins. I also sometimes use to verify what I am seeing on my Siglent because my many years of analog scope use I have a much larger mental database of what to expect.If I had the RTB2004 at home I would use the 7904A even less frequently than I do, since most time I use it is for the greater bandwidth and 300MHz would be enough for 95% of things I do at home.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 03:52:17 am
content: 9 out of 10 cats prefer Tek Analog scopes.7854 with cat plugin2 cats with 7844, 2232, and 7903 in background.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:27:22 am
content: To answer the Op: Yes.I have an HP1740A analogue scope (courtesy of Dave) that superceded my Hitachi V152B as my first 'go to'. It has selectable 50ohm inputs which make a huge difference when frequencies start getting up there. The first time I tried these out, I was amazed at the difference between the trace when using those and using a 50 ohm terminator on the opposite side of a BNC T connector.These 2 scopes have covered the majority of my needs - which, I admit, aren't all that demanding - for many years.In the digital range, I do have a Hantek 6022B USB scope and a DSO138 which have their place (notat the front line) plus a Tek TDS220 courtesy of another member here which I haven't learned to drive properly yet ... but, then, I haven't needed to.I suppose the best way to answer you is to say - if you already have a scope and don't knowwhyyou need to go digital, then you quite probably don't. At least not yet.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:29:10 am
content: I actually don't even have a digital scope, except at work.My "stable" consists of a 7904A mainframe with a selection of plugins (more on the way soonish I hope), 2465B, and the rather uncommon HP 1727A storage 'scope.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:33:50 am
content: Ah yes the 1727A. I just sold mine because I never used it. A rare analog storage oscilloscope, tiny screen, very fast.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:58:21 am
content: What wasreallyhappening with the cats....

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 02:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on July 30, 2019, 07:49:00 pmjust for comparison: I've assembled two 1kHz sine wave gen and connected them to my scopes,a RTB2004 100MHz and a Tektronix 2465B bot in X-Y mode.The RTB 2004:The 2465B:

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 04:58:51 pm
content: The last X-Y mode plots look like there is quite some jitter problem. I would guess this could be more like a generator problem. The old analog scope also shows so some distortion - which is more like a scope problem than from the generator - on the DSO the waveform looks reasonably OK.When using XY mode one usually should turn to single channel. This would remove the extra diagonal on most scopes.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 05:09:33 pm
content: Affordable DSOs have features, affordable analog scopes (used) have bandwidth. I have been using a Tek 485 (350 MHz) analog scope for at least the last 12 years. It cost about $200 on eBay. Today I primarily use a 100 MHz (unlocked) Rigol 1054Z and it has both features and channels. It's a great scope for low frequency work.There is no comparison between the scopes. One is a master of measuring, displaying and decoding. The other is fast.The big feature of the DSO is Single Shot. It turns out I use that more than any other feature.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 05:24:19 pm
content: Haven't owned one in my life, none of the reasons to own one has been compelling enough for me to do so. Storage, measurement, and analysis options are also just too powerful for me to ignore when considering a scope purchase.I get nostalgia, I get that they are sufficient for most tasks, and I get that some things like X-Y mode are often implemented better... none of those are enough for me, and in my experience, decent DSOs can do plenty well. I've got a generation old Rigol and a 15 year old higher bandwidth LeCroy and while there are some features/performance I envy in other scopes, I'm covered pretty well for my use cases and none of the things I'm looking for are available in an analog scope.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 05:35:51 pm
content: I have a Tek 475A with DM44 and manuals but it almost never gets used other than drawing things thanks to the excellent xy(z) mode. I keep thinking about getting rid of it but what a hassle. So essentially, no, I don't use an analog scope anymore.

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 07:25:09 pm
content: I have one analog and one DSO. Both are ancient. I used the analog one just this week to look at a video signal.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 08:06:37 pm
content: I still have my first oscilloscope Kenwood CS4025 stored somewhere but still in pristine condition. I rarely use it anymore, especially because my Rigol DS4014 does an excellent job in terms of bandwidth, color grading and response.Part of my experience transitioning from analog to digital ishereA few additional comments about the analog vs digital arehere.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 08:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on August 02, 2019, 04:58:51 pmThe jitter has imo two main reasons:- EMV in my lab- I have bodged 2 independet 1kHz sine wave generators with some parts I've laying around.I do not own (yet) a nice function generator.The generators have two slightly different frequencies, 996Hz vs. 978Hz and they are running freely.This will produce this "dancing" Lissajous plot.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 10:18:18 pm
content: My 2465A has a permanent place on my bench. I've had it professionally serviced and cal'd. And it does this:

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 10:37:31 pm
content: Another thing I like about analog CROs: control inputs are immediate, and tactile. I get to spend time with two expensive digital scopes at work...I have a Tek TDS5k series 1 GHz DPO on my desk and there's a Keysight MSO-X 6k down in the lab. While both are amazingly capable, I absolutely despise having to navigate menus to find functions.Plus, control inputs have an annoying amount of latency between input and effect.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 03:44:33 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on July 30, 2019, 04:21:50 pmWe used waveform monitors for convenience, but never had any major dramas with triggering Tektronix CROs ----a bit fiddly, but you could usually see individual lines OK.I must admit, I did cheat a bit from time to time by using a device called a "Link 330", which was primarily designed for doing diff gain/phase testing, but had a very nice trigger on individual lines.When the Tek & HP reps would come in to show us their latest & greatest DSOs, we would immediately try to display one or, hopefully, two fields of video signal.This was a standard test at transmitting sites, to check for "clamp pulse break through" in the field sync group, where the keyed clampers would sometimes miss-clamp on the pre & post equalising pulses.Inevitably, the DSO display would disintegrate into what looked like my overgrown back yard, from aliasing due to the reduction in sample rate at long time/div settings.That put my employers & me, personally, off DSOs for some time!We did have a Tek THS 720A, which was reasonable for service work on Picture Monitors & the like, but if a beat up old analog was available, I used that instead.Was the VM700 monitor the one with the touch screen?We had a waveform monitor with such a screen, & I was trying to point out a "glitch" on blanking level to another Tech, so touched the screen where it was, as you normally do with conventional units, & the $&&$$/-/&)))!!! thing changed ranges!I ran into a few DSOs in later jobs, but usually they weren't the newest devices, & there was aways an analog 'scope available as well, which I used due to familiarity & known performance.Now I'm retired, I can't afford to buy a modern DSO anyway, & my Tek 7613 does all I need it to do.Surprisingly, the analog storage function is quite good on this one, & if I really want a permanent record of awaveform, a digital camera does the job.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 03:59:42 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on August 02, 2019, 10:37:31 pmThat's strange as Keysight's Megazoom oscilloscopes are famed for their immediate hardware accelerated response to inputs and not slowing down when more features are enabled. Does the 6K series run an additional "desktop" Windows layer?

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 04:07:04 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 03, 2019, 03:59:42 amI don't think it does; when it boots there is zero sign of windows. It absolutely is faster at responding to inputs than the DPO, which runs windows 2k.But I can still feel that it's just not quite as immediate as my analog 'scopes at home. IMO, YMMV.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 08:29:18 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on August 03, 2019, 04:07:04 amAt work I used to use both a TDS7104 (Win2k) and a TDS3054B and they were very slow, with an edge for the 3054.My Rigol DS4014 runs circles around these in this aspect.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 01:22:05 pm
content: Going back to the original question, here is my approach for troubleshooting with an oscilloscope:If I don't have a clue, inititally, what the problem is, I use the analog CRO.Once I know what's going on, and need to make a measurement or a single-sweep capture, I use the digital unit.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 02:00:09 pm
content: Thanx a lot! Yours opinions are great hope to me.It is slightly esoteric but I mean what some sort of medieval era is coming. I.e. electronics became "timeless science"

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 06:41:18 pm
content: No not anymore. Used a Tek 7854 up until 2017, not bad for a 400MHz analog scope and you get the benefit of a 10-bit digitizer. You also get the benefit of having to repair them several times a year.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 09:17:29 pm
content: At least it's repairable. I have my doubts as to whether the current cream of the crop test equipment will remain serviceable for as long. Certainly once it breaks, you will be faced with a broad array of unobtainium parts and boards that are intended to be replaced rather than repaired.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 09:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on August 03, 2019, 09:17:29 pmYeah, but what's going to break? There's no high voltage, a simple switch-mode supply only a couple of power rails, a single PCB with a handful of chips on it...A lot of them use standard chips, too. Off the shelf FPGAs, RAM and ADC. Avoiding the ASICs isn't difficult.Plenty of old boat anchors have custom chips, too.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 09:54:38 pm
content: Many of the older Tek scopes are full of custom chips and other esoteric parts made of pure unobtainium. The CRT too, nobody is making or rebuilding those anymore and they have a finite life and are easily damaged. You can substitute any other display for the CRT in an analog scope.One benefit of the modern stuff is it's far cheaper than the old gear was when new so it's produced in larger numbers and is cheap enough that it can be replaced if not repaired.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 09:59:28 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on August 03, 2019, 09:17:29 pmJudging by the TEA thread you could go through a lot of analogue device repairs before you ever run into a digital device one.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 03, 2019, 09:59:28 pmThat's because when you have a fault on a modern digital scope, you look at it and realise repair is impractical at best - and give up. With a classic analogue scope you feel that can puzzle out a fault and rectify it. So you do, or at least have a good crack at it.Guess which is more interesting and satisfying.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:28:46 pm
content: Sure but that's a hobby in itself. I don't really enjoy repairing my gear, I want to use it to debug/repair other things. Occasionally I'll pick up a broken instrument to tinker with but generally I'm just really hoping my scope doesn't break because they're all a bit fiddly to work on and any decent scope is going to have some esoteric parts in it.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 03, 2019, 10:25:42 pmThe one where even the block diagram isn't spelled out for you but you trace out the fault, ID the part, and fix the behemothIt's definitely easier to repair gear with bigger parts and full schematics, but you run into the same issue with unobtanium parts on old gear as you do on new, and often newer stuff isn't driven as hard to achieve its performance, so even solid state bits can last longer. The bigger thing is that I don't think even the designers of ye olde premium test equipment of yore expected their gear to be serviceable or have replacement parts after 40 years of service (the Tek 7854 launched in 1980).... so why is it an expectation that my Keysight or R&S gear from 2010 will have replacement parts or assemblies available in 2050?Maybe by then they'll release some service manuals too

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:49:09 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 03, 2019, 10:25:42 pmNeither, as I'm not looking for projects to be added on the pile when I'm trying to finish others.Oscilloscopes are a means and not an end. By that metric gear that breaks most often would be best. It may be to some but that's not for me.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 11:07:00 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on August 03, 2019, 01:22:05 pmMaybe you have never used a DSO with a decent toolbox of fault finding tools.There's not much that will escape Persistance and color grading for you to then adjust trigger settings to reliably catch any event.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 11:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 03, 2019, 10:25:42 pmSure, while the already diminishing pool of parts mule CRO's still exists. Costs for them are rising as the demand for replacement bits increases.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 12:28:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 03, 2019, 11:59:04 pmShrug. So what; even where true that does not invalidate my statement. It does tend to reduce the need to buy a new low-end DSO, e.g. a Siglent (chosen for reasons given under your name on the left of the window)Besides, why pick on CRTs? There are plenty of other failure mechanisms.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 12:53:42 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 03, 2019, 09:33:21 pmSure, but 30 years down the road, who the heck knows? Computers (which most TE these days really is, a computer with some expensive peripherals) regularly fail in under a decade from the original purchase.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 01:11:31 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 04, 2019, 12:28:39 amYes but it should not be seen as the cheapest option as age of these old gears is now taking its toll.If your particular bent is for the higher end CRO's then the additional cost of parts mules cannot be overlooked.QuoteI never mentioned CRT's in particular but yes how you mention it they are also common failure point.The EHT supply and its associated componentry are typically under some heat stress where divider networks drift to let the scope go out of Cal. Plate output amps also fail as the HV also stresses them and typically the BJT's used back then weren't given much voltage headroom. On several occasions I've uprated CRT output amps to a more capable BF259.Oxidising contacts and pot wipers are a relatively small inconvenience but still an annoyance that the modern DSO doesn't suffer.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 05:02:24 am
content: While I design USB scopes I rarely use them in every day work.My test equipment consists of Hitachi 15Mhz scope and a sig gen.Scope was about £40 second hand and sig gen was about £25 second hand.Had them for many years now.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 10:42:00 am
content: Just curious, who do you design USB scopes for? Pico?

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 11:10:40 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on August 03, 2019, 04:07:04 amThe current Keysight 6k scopes run embedded Windows. Other than taking a little while to boot they're very responsive, but yes still slower than an analog scope.That said, I can't imagine using an analog scope for anything other than XY these days.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 03:22:27 pm
content: An analog 'scope is my main method of test. I use the digital when I want precise readings but it's much more cumbersome to make casual measurements.With the analog I have direct control over sensitivity and sweep speed. Not the case for digital, where the aliasing as well can cause spurious display.Both units are of great use to me.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 02:17:43 am
content: The custom parts in old oscilloscopes are usually not a reliability problem. Mechanical issues are far more common.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 09:47:56 am
content: FWIW for a quickie 'one off' test or measurement, I can get things rockin in a flash, on just about any analogue oscilloscope, without stuffing about with DSO menusand especially my pet meh of shared controls on 4 channel DSOsand"Dude, where's my external trigger socket n controls gone..?!"and"is this really supposed to be X-Y ?!!"That said, if I need to capture something elusive, the DSO comes into it's ownAnd then there's the gone but not quite forgotten analogue storage oscilloscopes with variable persistence,and some lower bandwidth jobs with split screens etc (anyone remember those awesome beasts?)that fit somewhere between the two above.Hey, if you can afford the extra dollars and bench space (or use them upright on the floor), why not have both an analogue and DSO oscilloscope and cover most bases ?As far as repairs go, if the DSO goes belly up past thecorporat pushed designer planned'hurry up and use it, then buy another' date, you may as well flog or donate it for partsor get in a free pump with the dusty sledgeThe analogue cros have a better chance of beingFrankenfixed, assuming you have a service manualand reluctant parts donor

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 10:05:55 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on August 05, 2019, 09:47:56 amDon't forget the dualbeam(not channel) analogue storage scopes. If you are capturing a fast single-shot event, alt mode will miss it and chop mode will mutilate (at best) it. Dual beam removes that dilemmaThe related dilemma with DSOs is ADCs that are shared between channels.Having said that, nobody used analogue storage scopes because they liked them. You used them when nothing else would capture your problem.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 10:18:31 am
content: I forgot about mentioning the dual beamonly because I could not source one (or afford it..)and I had a forgottenworkaround/poor mans dual beam arrangement using a pair of same model oscilloscopes one on top of the otherwith a mutual trigger arrangement. i.e. it worked great but I can't remember how I did it =Yep, dual beam rules, two channels, no alternating or chop to think about, and basically WYSIsort ofWYG

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 10:26:41 am
content: I am still using lots of analog scopes for some high voltage measurements. I found the Fluke PM3394B the best for this type of applications. They are purely analog, because the can be switched from analog to digital but I am using both modes.And ... the front end input on the PM3394B is protected to more than 5kV (DC and AC), try that on any other scope.On my high voltage bench I sometimes use 6 of them together.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 10:38:33 am
content: Now that's a six pack to die for

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 11:46:28 am
content: Reading this topic reminded me of a quote that I recall but can't find it again, I recall it was Chuck Yeager at an airshow - a P51 was being compared to a modern jet and someone was extolling the virtues of the P51 - his reply was to the effect of - don't get sentimental - old gear is fine for restoration - but almost always the most modern is the best - something like don't bring a knife to a gun fight.If I am serious about repairing something - the dso comes out first. A switch on glitch was found easily.I also can't imagine in the Keysight / Fluke / Lecroy main labs there are more analogue than DSO scopes.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 12:48:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 10:05:55 amDual beam storage oscilloscopes all used bistable storage which suffers from a low writing rate so bandwidth was limited to about 25 MHz and most were much slower. I do not know of any dual beam variable persistence storage oscilloscopes.QuoteI have a pair if Tektronix 7834 400 MHz variable persistence storage oscilloscopes and the 7834, or even better the 7934 which replaced it, would be my first choice if I could only have one analog oscilloscope.Quote from: VK5RC on August 05, 2019, 11:46:28 amThe problem with that is what if the modern replacement is lower performance? For instance no other feature in a modern DSO can make up for higher bandwidth in an older instrument.Or in my case, one feature I really like on my old oscilloscopes is fast peak-to-peak automatic triggering which no modern DSO supports. (1) It allows no adjustment operation while quickly probing different areas and changing signals. Sometimes the older "obsolete" instrument is better.(1) This feature has become even more relevant as newer DSOs have buried the trigger settings further inside menus making them even slower to operate.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 01:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 05, 2019, 12:48:33 pmTelequipment DM63 is dual beam and has a variable persistance, 0.2s to 1minute coverage accordnig to the manual. Fastest timebase is 200ns/div (or 40ns/div), so it can't be classed as "fast".Front panel, centre, under CRT:QuoteMaybe, but it is unlikely anyone ever had a 7k series storage scope as their only scopeQuoteToo true. And more difficult for beginners to realise that there is something that is affecting their ability to find what they need to see.There's a lot to be said for everything being upfront and visible on the front panel.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 02:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on August 05, 2019, 11:46:28 amI think the "almost always" is the key here. The strategists inebriated with the newfangled technology of radar seeking fitted their F4 Phantoms with AIM-7s only and removed the ancient machine gun tech. As per McNamara's words: “…being equipped with a gun is as archaic as warfare with a bow and arrow.”A similar thing happens with the new tech: the newfangled idea of full digital gives designers are lot of complacency in designing their analog front ends, to the point of having noisy or irregular response front ends on several pieces of gear. Sure, you can reconstruct a lot of digital bits and bytes, but the fidelity of the front end is still key.Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 01:58:24 pmWhen talking about menus and such, the interface of older technology tends to be much more accessible - after all, the options are entirely enclosed in the front panel and not hidden under tabs, drawers, doors, etc. (the physical equivalent of soft menus).The problem is how to aggregate the plethora of new options in such small panel. Sure, a Tek 555 sized gear could probably have enough real state to accommodate all the options in a DS1054Z.I read this a while ago:https://www.electronicdesign.com/industrial-automation/mechanical-engineers-should-design-our-interfaces

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 02:54:28 pm
content: Interesting thread.To answer the original question, yes. Why? Absolutely no idea, like most things I do.Analogue scopes are unreliable, inferior in almost every way, heavy, consume a ton of power, make the driver do all the legwork, all the parts are unobtainable and a lot of them are quite frankly quite dangerous.Anyone want to buy my analogue scopes?

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 03:39:42 pm
content: One thing that is great about an analog scope is its educational value. Just for that purpose I have picked up a used CRO a few weeks ago.CRO's have almost the same user interface, so if you know how to use your Tektronix, you will be able to use the Hameg efficiently in no time. So when you want to teach oscilloscope essentials to a student, it's best to go off of a CRO, because user interface details won't get in the way. All CRO's have trace intensity, trace rotation, input AC/DC/GND, trigger type, Voltage/div, Time/div, horizontal position, vertical position right there on the front panel. No need to hunt for them in menus etc.Once a student has learned the basics using a CRO, s/he can move on to a DSO with that solid foundation. And with every DSO, you have to learn yet another user interface quirk, and other limitation in such and such feature that the other DSO doesn't have.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 04:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 05, 2019, 02:13:16 pmThat's a significant issue, of course.Having too many options isnota benefit. That is true not only for obscure and rarely used options, but also for frequently used options that are buried too deep.An example of the latter is that a well-regarded small DSO has the display dots or display vectors option buried - and just about every change to any control resets it to the irritating "vector" optionI like instruments that show me what they actually "know", and don't try to be too clever.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 05:04:47 pm
content: Plenty of the more serious oscilloscopes don't even have a dots option.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 05:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 04:55:51 pmYes - useful options buried six feet under are quite obnoxious, and lacking the ability to save the status or the configs is quite troublesome. I was fortunate enough to have a wonderful wife that allowed me to gift myself a bigger cousin of the well-regarded small DSO and I am able to stay away from several of this and other sins mentioned (and argued to no end) by the owners/detractors of these.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 05:39:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 10:05:55 amDual beam and dual time base with delayed sweep would be easy enough to implement in a DSO. Not cheap, but certainly easy. People instead make do with really deep memory.

author: khs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 06:11:13 pm
content: Simple answer: yes.Why:First I don't trust low cost digital scopes.Second: Analog scopes like the Tek 7K are quite easy to use. Until the Rigol ready to use the measurement with the analog scope is finished.Additional a 7K mainframe with a 7D15 and a 7D12 is a digital voltmeter and a counter so I can see the signal and get the measurement value with up to 7 digits...But as you can see in the picture the Rigol is a great logic analyzer. So I use and need both.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 06:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: Tom45 on August 05, 2019, 05:39:48 pmDual beam is implemented simply by having a single ADC for every input channel. It only costs more and requires more memory bandwidth.You definitely don't want to play around with altering the ADC clock rate. Any mechanism to do that would add jitter, and that's a no no.You could implement a delayed sweep by simply not clocking data into memory until the relevant number of samples after the trigger occurred, but that would mean you couldn't see the pre-trigger data thus losing a major advantage of digitising scopes. Avoiding that requires storing all the incoming samples in case a trigger arrives later, and that might mean a deep memory. But memory is cheap, so that's a good tradeoff.Early digitising scopes used a CCD to sample and store the waveform, typically limited to the 1024 samples shown on a screen. Such shallow memory was a necessary evil, but is of limited use and should be avoided.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 08:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 05, 2019, 05:23:38 pmHaving commonly used features buried is a plague affecting far more than scopes. It drives me crazy in cars, and my iPhone's web browser auto-hides the navigation bar requiring an extra tap every single time to bring it up. This sort of thing is an infuriating result from minimalist dweebs obsessed with making a "clean" looking interface.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 08:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 05, 2019, 08:30:48 pm100% agreed. At least, provide enough customization that people who want to can set it up how they like. At least Apple provides a pain free way to remap caps lock to escape on touchbar macbooks. That's a trivial example, but we need more.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 08:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 05, 2019, 08:30:48 pmIt's less of an issue in a well laid/thought out UI and less again with a touch display.

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 09:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 05, 2019, 02:54:28 pmI still have an analog scope - my original Tek 922. All I do is audio, so I don't need anything higher bandwidth; there's plenty of that to let me see noise and hash on a signal. The Siglent has 10x the bandwidth of the Tek, and even 500 Msps is far more than I use. What I DO need is a display which doesn't need the options of "focus", "chop" or "alternate" - some of the things which always bugged me on analog scopes. Digital displays take care of this by nature, as well as making things like delayed trigger and measurements/math part of the built-in capabilities - even with 4 channels to display. And if I need to carry it to the stereo or AV system for a direct look at the signals, that's a one-handed task. Since I got my Siglent, I have only turned the Tek on a couple of times.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 11:33:25 pm
content: For a quickie no brainer 'get in and get out' measurement hook up, dial up, and trigger of a mystery source,the DSO can still be at the starting gate, whereas the analogue cro has supplied the relevant eye candy data, powered down, and back in the stableAnd that's why you don't see analogue scopes on nature strips, nor in pawn establishments (unless they are wacked off or knackered)In fairness to the DSO, I have presets with notes scribbled down if I need to 'fix' the horse race

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 12:24:46 am
content: I'm not sure... Why is simply being an analog scope so much faster for you all?

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 01:26:37 am
content: If you can find an good working one, why not, go for it OPLike highvoltage said you have pretty good model(s) going strong, my friend has an old phillips model, works pretty well, and less jumpy in the controls like the tds1210b i have, the controls encoders have begun to play tricks ... erkFor me the tds1012b with the autovoltage range is a life saver for me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 02:45:38 am
content: Quote from: 001 on July 30, 2019, 04:06:47 pmYou currently have no ability to capture a single shot or non-repetitive waveform and analyse it. That anenormousgap in electronics troubleshooting.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 02:58:01 am
content: Sure, it will depend on your needs, actually i just need basic functionalities for rf calibrations, but an mso and a dso are used in other depts in my company.And the hackable "cough" loll models threads are more than welcome ...

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 03:43:11 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 06:45:33 pmIt takes more than just an ADC per input to implement dual beam functionality. For each ADC there should be an independent time base and triggering circuitry. A dual beam scope is really two separate scopes that share only the phosphor on the CRT. Well, and power supplies I suppose.Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 06:45:33 pmWith delayed sweep you see two traces for each input: The main trace with the A timebase, and an expanded trace running at the faster B timebase. The portion displayed by the B timebase trace is intensified on the A timebase trace which gives the context. Note that the dual time base feature exists for single as well as dual beam scopes.For those of us that grew up with dual time base scopes, it is second nature to pull the time/div knob and rotate it clockwise to get the faster B sweep speed.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:49:42 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 01:58:24 pmThe DM63 is 15 MHz so one of the faster bistable storage oscilloscopes.The problem is simply that the bistable storage mode supports a much lower writing rate than variable persistence storage. Some bistable storage oscilloscopes supported a repetitive write mode which used multiple sweeps to allow storage at higher bandwidths but this precludes single shot acquisitions.QuoteI actually thought my 7834 had a bright and sharp CRT until I got a 7904.QuoteI do not know why oscilloscopes including analog ones made after about 1990 do not support this mode of triggering. For analog oscilloscopes it sort of makes sense because it requires some extra trigger circuits but DSOs should be able to do it for free with just a software change. My guess is that by the time DSOs became common, this feature was already depricated from analog oscilloscopes so the designers of DSOs were simply not aware of it.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:53:19 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 05, 2019, 02:13:16 pmThis is also from a guy (Yeager) so full of himself that he could not be bothered to check his fuel state resulting in a research F-105 crashed into the desert while joy riding.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 05:40:18 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 04:55:51 pmIt is not an issue at all; modern DSO interfaces (and other test instruments) are just poorly designed.The issue with limited space for hard controls is *which* controls do you include and they pick based on marketing or maybe a dart board rather than usability.Two things I would like to see are number pads and dual soft encoders; the later would be a real improvement and wide format displays make it even more practical. One thing I really hate are "stylized" buttons.Quote from: Tom45 on August 05, 2019, 05:39:48 pmImplementation would be close to free as far as the hardware is concerned. It would be especially useful in situations where even a large record length is not sufficient to maintain the highest sample rate or where processing power is not sufficient. Dual decimators would allow capturing a maximum sample rate section of an existing waveform whether the record length is sufficient or not. And it would not even require an extra trigger circuit unless the underappreciated trigger after delay feature is supported.But I agree with you; people make do with deeper memory and that covers most use cases although it yields lower performance.Quote from: tggzzz on August 05, 2019, 06:45:33 pmMultiple digitizers is the expensive way. Early DSOs chopped the signals in the analog domain to support more than one channel and it worked fine. That did not scale with sample rate so chopping during decimation became the standard and is still used except in "real time" DSOs that have a completely separate digitizer per channel.QuoteOnly very early DSOs attempted to do it that way. Very early on, the digitizer was run at its maximum sample rate and the output was decimated.QuoteYou could do it that way but nobody did except for some of the first DSOs. The difference between a normal sweep and a delayed sweep is simply whether the trigger is delayed and that only requires a counter. The pretrigger data is preserved either way. If this were not the case, then you could not set the trigger position in delayed sweep mode.QuoteSome early digitizing scopes worked that way and their record lengths eventually reached 120 kSamples. They were competitive up to about 2000 where high real time sample rates were important.Quote from: Tom45 on August 06, 2019, 03:43:11 amDifferent time bases are implemented with decimation on the digital side. With digital triggering, the cost of the extra hardware is tiny.Most dual beam oscilloscopes only had one set of horizontal deflection plates so only supported a single sweep or delayed sweep. Completely independent beam instruments like the Tektronix 556 and 7844 were the exception rather than the rule.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 05:57:53 am
content: Quote from: Tom45 on August 06, 2019, 03:43:11 amIt is worth mentioning *why* delayed timebases existed. It was for more than a magnified view.Delayed timebases implement "slideback" measurements which are more accurate than counting divisions on the CRT. That is why the delay control either has calibrated markings or a readout of delay time. If you align a waveform feature on the graticule and then align a second waveform feature on the graticule, then the difference in the delay control settings is the duration between the waveform features. This measurement has higher accuracy because it does not rely on CRT calibration or linearity. Some later instruments supported dual *delta* delay timebases which displayed two separate delayed sweeps allowing the direct readout of the time or frequency.DSOs never really needed delayed sweep for measurements so it eventually became rare. They could use cursors or automatic measurements.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 06:38:22 am
content: This thread has a scent of OP needing us to validate his use of analogue oscilloscopes. It seems likely the population on this forum isn't quite representative and the CRO crowd is over-represented just like vintage equipment is over-represented in the TEA thread. The truth is that CROs are still around and still useful. Another truth is that they're on the way out. None of the serious players produce analogue oscilloscopes any more. Although it's possible the world is itching for one and these annoying manufacturers just won't deliver, it's more likely the analogue oscilloscopes have been superseded. Even with their inferior XY modes the world at large seems to prefer DSOs over CROs and the areas where CROs still fare better are apparently not vital to those using them in earnest. Although it's more likely the inferior areas aren't well developed because few people require them. The beauty of CROs being delegated to more casual use in general is that people get to enjoy them for reasons other than sheer functional productivity, like the visceral experience of pushing and pulling clunking buttons and switches.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 06:47:01 am
content: I would be happy if someone made a DSO with the advantages of an analog oscilloscope and a good user interface but nobody even bothers even though I know it is possible. I am slowly working on my own design but more for fun than any practical use.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 06:59:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 06, 2019, 02:45:38 amThat's the killer use case for a storage scope.ButI've found it far less useful that many people claim. Why? Basically I can usually make my tests repetitive - and that'snecessaryduring development.The one case in the past few years when I really needed a storage scope was to look at PSU turn-on behaviour. Ironically that was in an old Tek 485 with a dodgy PSU; I could only do one test every 12 hours.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 07:03:58 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 06, 2019, 06:59:48 amHow would you make something like button bounce reliably repetitive?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 07:05:16 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 06, 2019, 05:40:18 amThat's the significant issue

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 09:21:02 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 06, 2019, 06:47:01 amOne of the manufacturers may work that out one day, so that the user can plug into the standalone DSO via USB etc, with customizable software installed on their computer,so that they can access the DSO and rig it the way they want, with preset analogue/digital/retro flavors to choose from as well.Add a touch screen monitor to the mix to act as the control panel and you have whatdumbass noise vendingDeeJays already have now, and have had for years,USB interface hardware and programs like VirtualDJ and the other funny named ones that are too complicated because they can be, which appeal to music appreciation challenged so called DeeJaysthat don't know how to use them, but pretend they do..and never will, going by their bad taste in music, slackness in 'reading the crowd', and unaware of their pending deafness, and their unfortunate eckied/iced music appreciation challenged followers

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 09:24:19 am
content: I don't find DSO interfaces terrible. At least HP 54600 series, Tek TD200 series and DS1000Z series.Granted there are some annoyances but nothing particularly end game. I am lazy enough just to whack auto most of the time then tidy up what remains

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 10:23:58 am
content: AWESOME

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 11:17:14 am
content: Horses for courses I suppose. I have three analogue scopes and one DSO in my home lab. The DCO gets used maybe 1% of the time, when I need the singe event/slow event/storage capabilities. For the rest of my work there (audio, tape recorders, metrology, some RF stuff) analogue scopes work better for me. At work I have the opposite, on my bench there are three DCOs and only one simple analogue scope (which I would use for a quick troubleshooting and fault finding - so not very often).Here is my summary:Analogue scopesAdvantages1) Important. Telling the truth most of the time. What you see is what you get. If you can see something, it is usually there.2) Can see things which DCOs have great difficuly in seeing. Like AM RF or a mild 25Mhz oscillation in a power amplifier on a particular part of 1kHz sinewave... .3) Quick. Both in startup and reaction when you touch a point with the probe.4) Usually considerably cheaper.Disadvantages1) Can not do what DSOs do easily (single events, precise timing, easy screenshots, quick measurements, FFT, comms etc)DSOsAdvantages:what their analogue counterparts can not do - see above.Disadvantages1) DCOs are untruthful by their nature. Unless you know beforehand what you are looking for, what is on the screen may have nothing to do with the reality. Which creates a particular problem when you are troubleshooting... . You have to check and cross-check what you see to be sure.2) Almost useless in some situations (see above, especially if you don't know what to expect, say with RF oscillations in an analogue circuit with a slow changing signal).3) Slow. Slow in start up, slow in operation, slow in the reaction on the probe. You get used to it, however if I need to fire a scope and do a quick fault-finding in an analogue circuit, an analogue scope saves a lot of time, in most cases I would see the problem before a DCO would finish the boot-up sequence... .CheersAlex

author: edigi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 01:04:22 pm
content: For me DSO only.Apart from price (and DSOs have very steep pricing when it comes to e.g. bandwidth) and a few quirks (like slow boot/crappy shared controls etc.) from functionality perspective DSO always wins hands down.Quote from: Alex Nikitin on August 06, 2019, 11:17:14 amI don't see the difficulty. Even entry level scopes have nowadays 10M+ sample memory so if you make a 10ms capture (10 periods of the 1kHz signal) with 1GSa/s it fits into memory and can check both the 1kHz and 25MHz signal.More advanced DSOs can have even more memory.Note: In my view (and limited experience) it helps a lot also if you know what to expect (to trigger properly) or in other words you know what to look for.Many recent features like very big FFT can come handy sometimes even if you have SA (I happen to have that as well), as you may not have high impedance input or the various probes to the SA that you may have with the scope.Others things like protocol decoding I don't see such a big deal, actually for simple stuff I'm just too lazy to setup the DSO properly and just decide based on what I see if it's OK or not, that could be done also using analogue scope (would not work for more complex messages).Sure if you work with low frequency analogue stuff mostly DSO brings little if any benefit (if we forget about lab space, noise and heat generated).Also DSO can mean learning or re-learning stuff, so it may move you out of your comfort zone that not everybody is so keen of.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 10:24:05 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 06, 2019, 06:59:48 amI agree; easy single shot acquisitions are a killer feature of a digital storage oscilloscope if you need it. Analog storage can do it also of course but it is not nearly as easy to use and I would never recommend it.The oscilloscope which sits on my bench is a Tektronix 2232 which is both analog and digital storage. While I would like a modern DSO to replace it, none have qualified without costing a house. Maybe I need to look for one that I can live in.Quote from: edigi on August 06, 2019, 01:04:22 pmThat is one place where modern DSOs have repeatedly let me down compared to an analog oscilloscope. I have diagnosed circuits where I suspected there was a local oscillation, like in an emitter follower from offset or operating point changes, and was able to verify it with an analog oscilloscope because the trace was "fuzzy" at a specific location. Then knowing exactly where to look, the DSOs I tried could not see it at all. (1)Then things get worse because my analog oscilloscopes support trigger on delay so I could actually lock on to and display the oscillation but since common DSOs no longer support this triggering mode, they could not even try to do this, except of course for my trusty old Tektronix 2230/2232 which has analog triggering and trigger on delay so it could not only lock onto just the oscillation, but then in DSO mode average out any noise to display it.(1) My 400 MHz 7854 10-bit *1 MS/s* DSO (sort of) with its puny record length could catch it. Oddly enough so could any of my *analog* sampling oscilloscopes. To me that suggests that any good 10 or 12 bit DSO could also so maybe they do have a use other than marketing and emptying your bank account.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 11:53:08 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 06, 2019, 05:57:53 amI could count the number of times I had to use a delayed timebase in the described manner on the fingers of one hand.Working in Television, there was always a known source of timing reference available in the video waveform itself.If you are finding a "glitch" that was not inherent to the original signal absolute accuracy was not all that important.I'm not disputing the original reason for delayed sweep, more pointing out that many users found the other advantages of this facility of primary importance.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 12:01:28 am
content: Is this what they mean by an analog storage scope?

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 04:32:47 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 06, 2019, 10:24:05 pmI would agree with this. I own one analog storage 'scope (HP 1727A) and while single shot acquisition does work, it's rather fiddly to get right. Whereas, the digital scopes I use at work make single shot really a matter of setting up the appropriate timebase and vertical settings, and pressing a button.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 05:48:53 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 06, 2019, 11:53:08 pmVideo is where "trigger on delay" is especially useful. Trigger on delay allows the delayed sweep to track the signal so you can count the sync pulses and then start the sweep synchronized at a specific point of the video signal without any jitter.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 07:15:24 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 07, 2019, 05:48:53 amIndeed, & that is how I used it.I very seldom used it for formal "slideback" measurements, but being able to look at individual lines (& parts of those lines) was invaluable.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 07:29:15 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 07:03:58 amYou could make an electromechanical device to push the button at accurately determined intervals.It is hard, but you can look at things like button bounce with a non-storage CRO free running at a very low speed & set to high intensity.Just press the button, & you will see the bounces----- stir & repeat.Not a very good method, no permanent record, but if you think the problem is switch bounce, it will confirm this.In many cases, it is a "Fix the bloody thing!" situation, & going "cap in hand" to the Boss saying "Please, Sir---I need a Storage 'scope, preferably a DSO." just won't fly!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 08:25:37 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 07:03:58 amUsing my finger, I have done exactly that on a non-storage scope, many times.Sure a digital scope would have made it easier, but it didn't give me any moreusefulinformation.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 09:24:38 am
content: Right tools for the job. Use a universal counter for debouncing stuff

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 10:26:19 am
content: A bit of drilling and soldering, 2 Morse code boxes and 2 Singer sewing machine foot switchesgets the 'never miss any event again' job done hereFacepalm aside, it can be done, especially if the DSO Stork gets h!jacked

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 04:39:18 pm
content: An early example where I used delayed sweep was looking into a problem with an 854 CDC disk pack drive.Being a removable pack, they didn't spin very fast in comparison to today's hard drives. As this was nearly 50 years ago, I don't remember the actual speed. But it was probably in the 100s of RPMs rather than 1000s. See below: it was 40 RPM.So a transfer was two steps. First send a seek command to some address. When the disk heads had moved to the correct cylinder, and the disk rotation was close to the desired sector, an interrupt was sent. Then a read or write command was given. Because the desired sector was close to being under a head when the seek interrupt arrived, there was only a slight delay before the read or write transfer could start. With a bunch of drives (we had 24) a lot of seek commands could be underway in parallel so the effective overall seek time was very much smaller than the actual seek time of a drive.However one drive wasn't right. At the time of the seek interrupt it wasn't close to where it needed to be.So using a Tek 547 scope I looked at the data stream coming from the read head while triggering on an index pulse that was at the start of a revolution.Then using delayed sweep, I could step through the addresses for an entire revolution. It turned out that the sector counter was broken. It did count all the sectors, but not in order. I think one bit of the sector address was flipped. So a seek to sector N should normally give an interrupt at sector N-d (I don't remember the value of d). Because of the bad counter, d sectors after N-d wasn't N. So there could be as much as an entire revolution of the platter before the I/O actually started.I reported the problem to the onsite CDC guys and they found and fixed the problem in the controller. The controller was the size of a refrigerator and was all discrete components. No ICs.Well, I got curious and did a search on the CDC 854 drive. A sales document is at:https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/CDC/CDC.Disk_852-4.ca1970.102646314.pdfThe rotation speed was 40 RPM, or 25 msec per rev. Overlapping seeks was very necessary.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 04:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2019, 09:24:38 amPutting a universal counter on every button of my products made for steep prices.It's not about debouncing, it's about knowing how big your bounce is so you can build a debounce mechanism with purpose whether it's hard- or software.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 04:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 07, 2019, 08:25:37 amHow does that work? You just go crazy on the button and hope the oscilloscope shows anything useful?

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 05:19:44 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 06, 2019, 04:53:19 amAnd who destroyed an NF-104 (as poorly dramatized inThe Right Stuff) because he was unwilling/unable to follow the designed flight profile. He only escaped from that debacle because the court martial board was unwilling to censure him. A talented pilot, but a little too quick to criticize the educated people.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 06:44:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 07, 2019, 04:56:01 pmThe technique was described earlier in this threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/do-you-still-use-analog-oscilloscopes-in-2019/msg2599065/#msg2599065It works; try it and see

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 07:25:19 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 07, 2019, 08:25:37 amI have done in that way also when I lacked a storage oscilloscope. It works but using a storage oscilloscopes makes it much easier.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 07:42:57 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 07, 2019, 04:54:49 pmPin change interrupt / scan. Disable interrupt/scan. Set timer for 50ms. Handle whatever button was supposed to do. Timer fires, turn on interrupt/scan again, disable timer.Hardware? Fuck it. It’s 2019. Cheaper to do it in software. I actually used a PIC10F320 to do this recently and replace two logic ICs.Quote from: David Hess on August 07, 2019, 07:25:19 pmThat’s quite funny. Back in the distant past we turned the lab lights out and pulled down the blinds and shut our eyes for 30 seconds to increase trace persistence.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 07:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2019, 07:42:57 pmI did that but also made a shade out of paper and taped it to the oscilloscope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 08:07:36 pm
content: A Persistence button is easier to use that a viewing hood !

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 08:09:25 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 07, 2019, 07:42:57 pmIf software was free a lot of people would be out of a job. Regardless, offloading to hardware has its pros and cons.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 01:39:10 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 07, 2019, 08:07:36 pmWell, I did eventually buy a Tektronix 7834 analog storage oscilloscope and my go to instrument is a 2232 combination analog and DSO; both are one button push away from persistence or digital storage. I would use a modern dedicated DSO if I found an affordable and acceptable one but that ended up being the 2232.

author: scatterandfocus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 06:17:36 pm
content: I thought my first scope would be a low cost used analog one. It turned out to be a dud. So that got me looking at dso's. Navigating that world of interdependent specifications, models which has this feature or that feature (and actually works as expected), firmware bugs, hardware bugs, which companies actually reasonably support their products, has turned out to be a confusing mess eating up weeks of free time. So now I guess I'm back to looking at old analog scopes where everything seems much more straightforward. It's just a matter of finding a seller who isn't trying to pass off junk at a high price.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 06:43:41 pm
content: I mean, my work area now has both a Tek 7904A and a 7104 sitting beside it, so my persuasion is clear. However, I'm thinking I'll look into an older Tek DPO eventually. I have one at work, and once it gets booted the scope itself works pretty damn well. The DPO FastAcq features are useful for hunting rare glitches, and I can get into one for a price that I can afford for personal use. Plus if I find the right connector cable, I can connect it to my TLA715 logic analyzer system.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2019, 07:44:06 pm
content: Scatrter, what are you looking for in a used analog 'scope? I now have four of them plus one digital. They are all Tektronix of varying age and specification. One in the ham shack, one at the work bench, two in the closet, plus the digital on the bench. The ones in the closet are backup; I have this dread of not having a decent working unit.

author: scatterandfocus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 am
content: Bob, probably nothing much in terms of what many people seem to be using scopes for. I'm mostly interested in analog audio with some automotive uses on the side.The seller of the dud scope that I received has offered to replace it with another unit. So I'll see how that goes.On dso's, I guess I don't get much of what they are about. Oscilloscopes are for looking at waveforms, right? Meters are for accurately checking voltage and current. Spectrum analyzers are for looking at the frequency domain. Logic analyzers are for looking at digital signals. So then, why is so much piled into these low cost dso's? Who is it all for? Does a dso give better voltage and current measurements than a meter? Does it provide better FFT than an analyzer? Better decoding than a logic analyzer?Better waveform display than an analog oscilloscope? A better interface than dedicated instruments? I guess the only real strength that I see of dso's is the storage aspect. But in what cases is it needed to store waveforms rather than just looking at them in realtime? Is storage a necessity or just a nicety? And when looking at dso's, I'm asking myself if I really need what they provide, the same as asking myself if I need an arbitrary waveform generator over a simpler audio generator. And if I get a dso, will I still be using it in 10-20 years, or will it be technically obsolete in 5 years and not repairable when it breaks?

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 01:44:23 am
content: Storage becomes real handy when you're looking for a rare event (as do complex triggers).

author: scatterandfocus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 01:50:18 am
content: Oculus, in what practical use cases?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 02:02:34 am
content: I'll reply for Oculus since I have found storage useful since I was using it in analog storage scopes. You have a noise problem. It only causes a problem when the noise spike lines up with an edge of a signal in your device. When that occurs something happens that shouldn't. Now how do you identify where that spike is coming from? You look at possible offending lines, signals that have energy in them so they might be the source of the crosstalk. But which one is it? You trigger on the offending event. It happens only every so often so it is a blip on the screen, but when you can store, digital or analog you can see what is happening at your gate and on the candidate offender. When you find one that lines up you have your culprit.Both digital and analog storage work for this, but digital made it cheaper and more versatile.

author: scatterandfocus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 02:17:00 am
content: CatalinaWOW, I assume that you are looking for glitches in digital signals. I don't know if that will ever be a practical use case for myself. And if I do have a need for that in the future, I think I would have a better idea of what I need at that point (rather than now). And as tech marches on, there will likely be better tools for that task in the future.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 07:00:21 am
content: Thanck You! This tread is awesome

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 07:03:39 am
content: Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 amIn general, no it is not better, but it is often good enough. But that requires defining "better" and "good enough".Fundamentally you should use the tools available, understanding their limitations and using imagination to work around the limitations.QuoteThat is indeed the killer use case. It is needed for single-shot events, e.g. PSU switch on/off behaviour. For events that can be made repetitive, it is not an advantage. "Repetitive" is within the limitations of the CRT's phosphor's time constant.QuoteThat is indeed a question with modern equipment, not just scopes. The low-cost of some scopes makes them disposable items. When bought new, a Tek 465 cost about a year's salaryIf you are interested in audio, then you are probably interested in low-level signals. A lower bandwidth scope can have more sensitive vertical settings. With digital scopes you have to be very careful to understand the consequences of the ADC, particularly the effective number of bits and linearity.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 08:32:15 am
content: Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:50:18 amIf I may add few thoughts.. You can have glitches on analog signals, injected from some sort of interference (mobile tower, some sort of machinery, garage opener etc etc..) or from a separate faulty circuit in same device. As already mentioned, you need to verify startup sequence of PSU, sometimes several voltages at he same time to see if sequence of events is right. There are all sorts of circuits that are automating some sequence of events (open this valve, 100 msec later enable 12V, sometime later do this and that.) You can have a problem with a walkie talkie that flashes the display when you press TX, and it overheats quickly when you do that so you really want to do this as little as possible.And on and on.Many many years ago, we used to have ampermeters, and voltmeters, and ohmmeters. As separate instruments. Even had them separate for different ranges: 10V voltmeter and 100V voltmeter and a separate 500V AC voltmeter. And at one point, people realized they could put one one moving coil instrument in a box with switches and different shunts and resistors and a battery and a multi-meter was born. After many years they became digital, they started measuring temperature, capacitance, frequency etc etc...Today nobody wants to use anything else. There are no people saying "we should be using old analog ampermeters, those are better" That would be just silly.Modern digital scope is really a "signal multi-meter". In addition to showing repetitive waveforms it can measure hundreds of other parameters. Better ones have whole analysis packages built in. That saves time and enables you to use different, faster and better workflows..Regards

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 08:42:25 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 13, 2019, 08:32:15 amOoh, a challenge.Try measuringchargewith a modern meter.At school we measured charge using a ballistic galvanometer. Principle: dissipate the charge through the meter in a time that is much shorter than the meter's response time. The needle is kicked and the maximum deflection is proportional to the current*time, i.e. charge.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 08:50:24 am
content: I prefer analogue ammeters for watching change. They are also much faster responding when you consider the brain has to interpret the value and the value trend. Flitting digits is hopeless. The analogue bargraph on most DMMs is totally hopeless as well. I include the 87V there.Thus I use these rather nice analogue ammeters on a regular basis...I probably nearly never use the DMM current ranges. I usually use it in volts and measure across a resistor if I need current. Mainly because I don't have to futz with changing the leads then.Incidentally they also seem to promote intense concentrate on accuracy which isn't actually that important in perhaps 80% of cases. Hmm it's 1.063 amps vs it's 1 amp.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 09:06:10 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 13, 2019, 08:50:24 am

author: edigi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 09:22:24 am
content: Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 amIn the last couple of decades so much has changed in the electronics that that the role of oscilloscopes has changed also significantly. Naturally one thing has not changed: An expensive dedicated test equipment is typically better in what it's dedicated for (cheap ones not necessarily).Nevertheless a decent DSO can be a substitute for some of those dedicated equipment (especially for hobbyist if they don't have very demanding requirements from them in certain areas, or big $ pocket which is actually kind of the same thing).Thus these low cost DSOs are mostly for hobbyist (in my country I know that some repair shops are using them). There are couple of equipment that one cannot avoid even as hobbyist and DSO is one of them. For DSO vendors those extra features costs from little to nothing. Just SW on existing HW.Although the main role of looking at waveforms like you wrote, but not only that.This has to do a lot with how electronics has changes in the last couple of decades. Back the majority of the stuff was analogue (well with some exceptions like 74 series of ICs and 8051 micro that arrived gradually).Deep down naturally still everything is analogue, however from practical purposes real analogue stuff (where core functionality is still analogue) has remained only a few places.Today most of the signal generation and processing has transferred to digital domain. (This does not necessarily mean DSPs as MCUs have become quite powerful, many times MCUs are used instead). For fast logic CPLDs and FPGAs are used even by hobbyist.Thus we have purpose made chips that communicate via some interface (like SPI and SPI can use fast bitrates...) and generic chips where logic is defined via some HDL language (and where really fast communication is needed e.g. LVDS is used).Naturally if you work with analogue audio and periodic signals (and couple of more areas) none of these change impacts you.However most of us that has something to do with modern electronics are very much impacted.Naturally even in these realms some signals can be made periodic. However sometimes it becomes increasingly hard, sometimes downright impossible. E.g. although I've occasionally did, I'm generally unwilling to change HDL code to make something periodic as the synthesized HW will be different and glitches invisible because of the difference made.Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 amSure. However DSO has the high impedance input and can provide better resolution for lower frequency ranges. Potentially you may have probes for the DSO that even if you could have for SA, you'd rather not duplicate them for pure economical reasons.I can't emphasize enough the probing part of this story.Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 amSure again. Logic analyzers have the same probing issue again if you work with fast signals (and even couple of $ MCUs can produce such fast signals nowadays that without proper probing your analyzer fails to see or even worse potentially corrupts it). This has been recently discussed in the forum and it worth checking these 2 videos (sorry for reiterating again): Sigrok and Logic Analyzers DSLogic Logic Analyzer Review and TeardownSo while some vendors tried to address the problem, and certainly there is generic solution in the nxk$ domain, if the number of signals that you need to check does not exceed what your DSO is capable of DSO is actually comes very handy in case of fast signals.Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 amI guess it heavily depends on how you define the term better.I'd rather look for better triggers as there is no replacement for that.So as short version: killer use cases for DSO, single-shot events (including protocol decoding), probes that you have available for fast signals, FFT and so on.I guess everyone who has switched to DSO (almost everybody based on the offerings of the oscilloscope vendors) has at least one good enough reason, since DSOs tend to be significantly more expensive than the analogue oscilloscopes that you find.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 09:24:34 am
content: Re: the Keithley....I'm honestly not sure why that exists. Say I'm looking at PA transistor current. As the transistor gets hotter, current goes up. Difficult to read trends over a 5 second period with any kind of digital metering. The real time trend graph is good for sure but you can see the same thing watching a needle creep up and it doesn't cost $1750 which is a bad ROI unless you spend all day looking at it. If I want to log something over time then use a generic bench meter with a PC interface and do it there. Very limited in what you can do with the data on a device when there's Excel and Mathematica available on something larger and more powerful.Some analogue action from me to demonstrate the current metering response...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 09:49:33 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 13, 2019, 09:24:34 amHave you seen videos about the DMM6500 and DAQ6510? They're insanely flexible and powerful machines and a lot of processing can be done on the machine itself. Of course you can hook up a computer and do it that way but it's all about expediency. It's essentially the COTS versus rolling your own discussion. I don't think it's a stretch to say Keithley set a new standard. Of course the model pictured can scan multiple channels so doing more involved measurements can be easily done.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 09:53:44 am
content: You are referring to this, I assume?http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/2019/08/04/keithley-daq6510-6-5-digit-data-acquisition-multimeter-review-teardown-experiments/

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 10:07:18 am
content: Not sure I get the use cases for it. I built similar test platforms years ago using GPIB and composition. Composing instruments is always more powerful than having a black box. You can reuse the instruments for other cases later once your production run is over.Also as always with these things, they tout 6.5 digits, 1MS sample rate but look at the datasheet. To sample all those channels you need a channel switch with a 3ms rate change so say you have 80 channels, so including settling time that kicks you down to 1 reading/second over 80 channels and those channel switches have a pretty finite lifespan! Also it only has 512 memory slots for readings. When you start adding options, it makes some of the other competitors from Keysight look cheap.On top of that you get to program it via a shitty touch screen UI made by the lowest bidder or some weird ass proprietary language and development tool chain. And I know something from experience; test gear companies can't write software.We had similar stuff with two 34401A's and two channel multiplexers driven from a rack mount PC and visual basic that could do this sort of stuff back in the late 1990s.Composition > monolithic devices.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 10:31:23 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 13, 2019, 10:07:18 amAgain, it's all about COTS versus having to roll your own. Needing four devices, a rack mount PC and a coder who knows what he's doing versus one DMM and a monkey poking at the screen able to make all kinds of involved measurements without external postprocessing. The software to do it on a PC is supplied too if that tickles your fancy. But none of this was the point. It was all about making changes intuitively visible and a graph is essentially doing what a needle does except that it also shows a historical trend.I'm not sure where you get the 512 readings from but the datasheet says the following. "Maximum Reading Memory (volatile) Up to 7 million readings with standard buffer (includes channel and formatting information). Internal (non-volatile) Memory for Saved Scripts and Scan Configurations 6 MB, enables hundreds of scan configurations or TSP scripts to be saved in non-volatile memory" You can also use your own storage. The number of times a relay is operated is stored and the relays themselves are standard fare so can be replaced when their millions of operations are used up.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 10:32:51 am
content: Quote from: BU508A on August 13, 2019, 09:53:44 amThat's a pretty good video. The SMU and DMM7510 reviews too as a lot is shared across all models.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 10:48:40 am
content: Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 amThe key is in the 'S' part of "DSO". You can capture waves and examine them at leasure (zoom/pan). You can also set up complex conditions for when to trigger so you only see the stuff you want to see.This alone is worth the price of entry (eg. a Rigol DS1054Z).If you have special needs that aren't covered by a basic model then make a list of them and spend more money on a better DSO.Or ... if it's something you do a lot then buy a dedicated device for that function and use the two devices together. You'll get better results (as you noted).Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 amWhenever a waveform isn't a simple repeating shape that fits on screen.Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 01:36:25 amIt's cheap to add those functions to a DSO because it's just software, it gives useful results even if it's not perfect, so... why not?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 11:05:36 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 13, 2019, 08:42:25 amWell I'm sure you will have trouble measuring liters or kilos with digital multimeter too.. Ballistic galvanometer is specialized instrument. If it was something commonly used, multimeters would have a measurement for that.You could use a meter with high Z and know capacitor, and measure peak voltage.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 12:29:33 pm
content: Analog multimeters mostly suck at resistance measurements - highly non-linear. For the rest, IMO they are alright (not that I use one regularly anymore) .One thing that I like about analog meters is that it exercises your brain to interpret what you see - after all, our brains need as much exercise (even in mundane things) as the muscles in our body.The fact they also operate without batteries is an interesting factor.Regarding DSOs, to me the "S" is the first advantage one faces when moving from the analog to the digital domain (others follow suit the more one works with it). Never to forget: the digital domain is a simplification of the analog domain and carries intrinsic limitations with it. Good understanding of these is critical to get the most of the two techniques.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 04:09:15 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 13, 2019, 11:05:36 amNonetheless, analogue ammeters are better for measuring charge, and using them for that purpose isn't silly.That meter+capacitor technique won't work in many interesting cases.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 04:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 13, 2019, 12:29:33 pmThis would make a great tee-shirt. Sure would burst a lot of bubbles

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 04:59:31 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 13, 2019, 04:34:18 pmWhat bubbles would it burst?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 05:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 13, 2019, 04:09:15 pmMy english fails me. Sorry. What I wanted to relay is that fact that there are separate instruments to measure current, voltage or resistance doesn't make multimeters stupid. If anything, most of us only use multimeters for those kind of measurements, and we have no separate voltmeters and ammeters and voltmeters, for pretty much anything that multimeters do.What you are mentioning is a measurement that doesn't exist on multimeter. So it is not only not silly but is only logical thing to use specialized instrument made for that particular measurement.Of course you can measure quantity of charge with capacitor. It is actually most common method today in today's electrometers, by using known capacitor and connecting it either in integrator mode or in a shunt mode (the one I mentioned). Ballistic galvanometer uses mass to integrate charge pulse into mechanical displacement, capacitor uses stored charge to integrate to voltage directly. Actually, ballistic galvanometers are calibrated by discharging calibrated capacitors into it, making it mathematically equivalent, proven by physical experiment.Yes, I'm old enough, we did play with those in school too. They are fascinating, very very cool. I love old tech.Scopes can measure frequency, but my TF930 does it better. But most of the time, I can quickly, while scoping around, verify that crystal on my board runs at 10MHz and that the waveform is OK. And 8 digits and 2-3 ppm frequency accuracy on a scope is better than what that cheap 20-30 ppm crystal will do.If I need it more precise, I fire up TF930.. But 80-90% of time it's not necessary.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 05:14:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 13, 2019, 04:59:31 pmFor starters, anyone who looks at a digital display and assumes it more accurate than an analog one. I could get into recorded music, but I think you get my drift.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 07:26:05 pm
content: Quote from: scatterandfocus on August 13, 2019, 02:17:00 amThat happens, but my most frequent use case is in systems with multiple servo loops, all operating at the same time, but with different loads and frequencies. I haven't personally done this but I would assume that CNC setups of various types run into this sort of thing. Any place signals have been mixed would seem likely to find uses for this. All those sum and difference frequencies make searching for the culprit fun.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 10:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 13, 2019, 05:14:13 pmIt is interesting to see how many younglings think that analog is useless or "out" while digital is "in". I've burst many bubbles with my sentence above and with this other one: "we are analog by nature, thus any digital gizmo is useless if it does not have an analog way to interact with us". But that shouldn't be a surprise for anyone here.There's a reason as to why working with digital is so prevalent these days: it is easier to process, obtain information, transform, reconstruct, restore, etc. All that at the expense of acceptable levels of uncertainty and many orders of magnitude of increased circuitry complexity.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 10:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 13, 2019, 05:14:13 pmI would argue that in most cases a digital display is more precise, now whether it's also more accurate depends on a lot of things.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 12:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 13, 2019, 10:30:29 pmYes, a lot of things, things non EE types probably don't even know exist like ADC's, hence the "bubbles". So to be precise, I was not referring to a lot of people here.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 03:41:26 pm
content: Interesting article about soft/hard interfaces...https://news.usni.org/2019/08/09/navy-reverting-ddgs-back-to-physical-throttles-after-fleet-rejects-touchscreen-controls

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 04:14:32 pm
content: Now if only automotive manufactures would get the memo.I loathe touchscreens. I put up with one on my phone because it's the only practical way to make a pocked sized device like a smartphone work, but beyond that, no thanks. I like physical controls that have a tactile feel, I should be able to operate everything without looking at it.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 06:07:03 pm
content: james_s, I think touchscreens are a very good fit for specific purposes that do not require excessive precision - tracing/highlighting regions (for mask, for example) or quickly accessing menus or functions that float around the screen. Feedback mechanisms such as button highlighting or haptic also help a lot with the operation of touchscreens - usually haptic is quite responsive, but visual aids are heavily dependent on the CPU load of the HMI and are rarely well implemented.Bring touchscreens to a precision fight is a very bad idea IMHO... Setting values on a dial or slider interface, or even trying to highlight or move a cursor on a line of text (so common when posting on EEVBlog from the cellphone, for example) is an exercise in patience with the occasional frustration. For those tasks, bring me a mechanical/physical interface any day.Oh well... I wonder if our line of thought will become extinct as our generation ages...

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 06:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on August 06, 2019, 11:17:14 amAnd I'd argue, you need to know the same when using analog scopes. What will the 12pF capacity of your probe doing to the signal under test? The scope (analog or digital) will also be a low pass filter -- what are the exact characteristics? If you blindly trust what either kind of scope is showing you, you're in for a ride.I (just a hobbyist) got an old (slow) analog one for fun (essentially as X-Y vector monitor) and for nostalgia. And a buddy just tasked me with repairing his Tek 475. For troubleshooting or measurements I wouldn't think twice to use one of my digital ones (I'd love to have one of the old analog Tek 7 series ones with their quite impressive specifications, but I just don't have the space for such and I'm afraid by now, they require too much TLC).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 06:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 23, 2019, 06:07:03 pmTouchscreens require that you are looking at the screen to see which control you are changing.That's potentially lethal in a car, when you should be looking at the road in front of you. Hence it is illegal here to use a non-handsfree cellphone while driving."Heads down" syndrome is implicated in many aircraft crashes, as can be determined from the two flight recorders. Unfortunately cars don't have those, so it will be difficult to prove.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 06:42:52 pm
content: That's why many modern cars stick up an annoying disclaimer on the centre screen at startup, pointing out the risk and asking you to confirm.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 08:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 23, 2019, 06:42:52 pmSo they actually say "This equipment is dangerous if correctly used in the way designed"?I wonder if that is sufficient. Mind you, I did once write a contract to develop an X and included a clause stating that it was not fit to be used as an X, and I pointed out the clause in the covering letter. The client signed the contract

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 08:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 23, 2019, 06:30:48 pmCertainly. It is ridiculous the amount of people that I see zipping at 120km/hwhile their heads and eye are plugged to the stupid phone. There are accidents and there is recklessness.I recall years ago many studies and prototypes of safety systems that monitored the movement of a driver's eyes and/or head to detect tiredness - they should instead detect lack of attentiveness. I am pretty sure there are much more accidents caused by phones than by sleep.Quote from: tggzzz on August 23, 2019, 08:13:36 pmMy friend's car has an in-dash GPS that prevents it from being operated at all when the car is moving - even by a passenger! (which would be difficult to tell form the GPS's perspective)Unless the car is in full stop (at a traffic light or jam), the GPS accepts no inputs.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 01:41:03 am
content: Car makers are doing exactly the opposite, implementing all sorts of technological crutches to enable people to focus even less on driving the car. It's a well known psychological fact that if you remove the need to focus on something, the brain very quickly finds something else to focus on. The less workload a person has, the more they'll tend to zone out and play with their phone.I'm starting to think they need to make distracted driving a criminal offense, felony if it causes an accident. Maybe if they at least hit people with a $1k fine for the first offense and progressively higher from there people might start to get the message. I see it every single day and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 06:45:21 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 24, 2019, 01:41:03 amOver here there is the catch-all "driving without due care and attention". Nonetheless it has been shown to be necessary to have another law w.r.t. using non-handsfree cellphones, and there is talk of increasing that to any phone.The latter is silly; perhaps it will become an offense to talk to a passenger.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 09:09:06 am
content: QuoteWell my passenger (my other half) is busy operating the Sat Nav, I find looking over to the centre screen far too distracting! I'm not a very talkative driver, I need to concentrate.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 09:57:21 am
content: Can’t fix stupid. Don’t try.Prevent stupid from being allowed on the road to start with. And test it regularly. And ban people who do stupid stuff instantly.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 03:13:34 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 24, 2019, 09:09:06 amIf I had a screen, I would too.Unfortunately too many people think "I can multitask, and do more than one thing at once".

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 04:49:24 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 24, 2019, 06:45:21 amMultiple studies have demonstrated that a handsfree phone is no safer than holding one in your hand, so why is it silly?I'm not sure precisely why, but talking on a phone is more distracting than talking to a passenger. Perhaps because a passenger is in the same car and can intuitively tell when the driver needs to focus on driving, I don't know. I refuse to use my mobile phone in any capacity while driving because I know that I feel distracted when doing so. I cannot walk and chew gum at the same time and neither can most people who think they can.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 05:49:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 24, 2019, 04:49:24 pmPlease provide links to such "studies"If you remove the common distraction variable "phone conversation" from the parameters that study would show that driving with one hand is just as safe as driving with both hands on the wheel.I find that very hard to believe. Perhaps the difference is below the noisefloor of the study but last five years a multitude of socialpstchology studies have been redone and rejected as non significant. It would not surprise me if these are some of those studies.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 06:08:40 pm
content: I’m glad this thread is still on subject.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 06:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 24, 2019, 06:08:40 pmWelcome to the Internet!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 07:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 24, 2019, 05:49:02 pmI read the same studies. I do not know if they were updated or refuted. The studies used to support legislation either had very poor control groups or the legislators did not care, but why would they?The common factor with the greatest effect was the distraction caused by using any phone or even talking to a passenger in the car; it was the intellectual distraction and not the physical distraction. None of the studies covered it but I wonder if using a two way radio where only one side can talk at a time like with amateur radio is less distracting.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 08:13:59 pm
content: I find it difficult to believe that looking at a keypad when dialling a number is equivalent to talking to a passenger while still looking at the road ahead.Ditto reading/writing an SMS.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 08:34:39 pm
content: Hey Siri call "X" .... Hey Siri "send a message to X" ... problem solved. Hands and attention free here.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 09:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 24, 2019, 08:34:39 pmThat would have the same advantage as two way simplex communications where continuous interaction is not required.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 09:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 24, 2019, 06:22:50 pmHave you ever been to Stack Overflow?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 09:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 24, 2019, 09:38:32 pmOnly by mistake; I rapidly made my excuses and left.

author: xmetal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 09:54:03 pm
content: I still use a Tek 2235 although I'm looking to get a modern digital scope as well.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 06:11:12 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 24, 2019, 07:47:48 pmMany such studies employ young students---- they work cheap, & are less likely to consider the study nonsense.They also tend to use simulated traffic situations.The two things may cause errors because-(1) The participants have very little experience in driving in the real world, & are still in the "panic" stage" where they have to actively "think through" the very mechanics of driving.Experienced drivers perform the normal tasks of driving subconciously, so their attention is available to analyse traffic situations, despite alleged distractions.(2) "Simulations" don't reproduce the driving experience all that well, so the "noob" may be fixated on that difference, become easily distracted, & miss vital traffic information.It seems that the "distraction" idea has been extended out of all proportion to the original obvious problem of people looking at their mobile phones while driving.iAll of the other things have been around nearly as long as cars have, with little statistical record of them causing accidents.Most things a driver might do were designed to be possible using just the sense of touch.Driving itself, for example:-With a manual gearbox, do you ever look at the shift pattern diagram on the gear knob?Look at the headlight switch, or wiper switch?Car radios were for years made with pressbuttons so pre tuned stations could be selected.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 09:10:43 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 25, 2019, 06:11:12 amThe other controls I need to over by touch alone are temperature, ventilation, windows.On scopes I want to change tmebase and the vertical sensitivity controls without taking my eyes off the circuit or screen.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 09:12:28 am
content: Quote from: xmetal on August 24, 2019, 09:54:03 pmThat's rational; use the right tool for the job, taking account f their characteristics.My principal objection is withnpeole that claim you can't do anything useful with an analogue scope.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 09:39:14 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 24, 2019, 04:49:24 pmI pick my missus up from Heathrow on a regular basis, and have started asking her to quit the inevitable jibba jabba until we’re away from the complexities of the road layout at the airport, and are on the relative calm of the motorway.I simply won’t be listening to a word she’s saying when the driving is taking up so much of my mental capacity. Of course, a week later in conversation, and in exasperation, she’ll say “You weren’t listening, I already told you that”.Equally, I would be avoiding phone calls in a similar situation.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 12:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 25, 2019, 09:39:14 amMy attitude precisely.Unfortunately there are youngsters that haven't had time to make mistakes (yet), and people with Dunning-Kruger syndrome. So laws and enforcement are needed.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 01:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 25, 2019, 09:39:14 amLOL. Why that sounds familiar? I have no idea, really...Jokes aside, I agree with you, when it's complicated, you better concentrate on driving. You can chit chat later when you survive the traffic..

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 09:42:15 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 25, 2019, 06:11:12 amYou can consider the studies any way you like, however they certainly align with my own experiences. I *know* that I have difficulty driving and holding a conversation at the same time, it is super distracting and when on a phone conversation I cannot just trail off when I need to focus on the road the way I can talking to a passenger next to me who will clearly see that I am focused on driving the car. I don't care whether it's legal or not, I refuse to talk on the phone, hands free or otherwise while I'm driving a car, at least not around here where traffic is heavy most of the time. If I were out on a rural highway it would be different but in a busy metro area one really needs to focus.I know lots of people who think they are great at multitasking but having ridden with them I cannot name a single one who actually is. They all start making careless mistakes once they get on the phone, whether something benign like missing their turn or something dangerous like running a stop sign or red light.I had not heard of Dunning-Kruger syndrome until very recently but that describes a lot of people very well. I see it literally every single day when I'm on the road, idiots blabbing on their phone drifting out of their lane, driving 10 under the speed limit, changing lanes without even looking, doing the speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down thing, merging without looking, etc. It has gotten so bad that I don't even like to drive around here anymore unless I have to.

author: Martin.M
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 03:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on August 07, 2019, 12:01:28 amhello Alex,your 547 is amazing but this what you are asking for is the Tek 549 storage oscilloscope.Tek Oldies have it in the name, they are:oscilloscopedual beam oscilloscopestorage oscilloscopedigitizing oscilloscopedigital storage oscilloscope.. behind the TYPE number.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 04:12:50 pm
content: Quote from: Martin.M on September 19, 2019, 03:21:04 pmMartin, Alex probably meant physical storage of stuff on top of his 547, not electron storage in the oscilloscope internal circuits...We have an old Tektronix TDS3014 that features both types of storage! The battery compartment in the back fits all sorts of things when no battery is installed.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 04:54:23 pm
content: Thanx to all for great tread

author: Martin.M
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 02:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 19, 2019, 04:12:50 pmthank you. With my english I will never get the green cardSome Tekscopes have a pounch on the top, for chocolates, beer and some you need to do a good job, 475 and relatives..Classic Tek can have a little door upside in the case, mostly is there a little manual inside. Not all of them have that, example with door: Tek 531, 533, 535, 551 ..otherwise use the storage box what is part of the scope mobile.Martin

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: Martin.M on September 20, 2019, 02:26:18 pmI suspect these Teks would be great to keep your lunch warm.

author: Martin.M
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 06:05:33 pm
content: for this special measuring you have to select a Classic Tek without Fan,easy to identify by: they have a lot of holes in the upperside of the case, for the hot air... (and the coffee cup)Tek 310A, 561, 564, and the Time Mark Generator 181 are useful. No "B" types, they are too modern, more transistors and not so many tubes..Special problem: in case of that they must be cleaned inside yearly. A Classic with Fan have a filter.Martinpicture: Tek 181 run 20 tubes.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 07:34:44 pm
content: Beautiful picture! Beautiful meter!

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 10:16:47 am
content: Just thought about the coffee cup being on top of this and staying warm, that is a nice thoughtNow I want one, too ...

author: Martin.M
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 11:36:00 am
content: Quote from: khs on August 05, 2019, 06:11:13 pmyour 7854 is sitting on a 202 scope cart made for Classic, the Plugins there are also for#500 series.Where is the scope they are for?The 7k can do the job of the rigol also by using a 7D01 with display formatter.Martin

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 01:22:22 pm
content: Sounds like an excellent way of ending up with an oscilloscope full of coffee.

author: Martin.M
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 02:58:07 pm
content: here is my DSO

author: Martin.M
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 03:01:11 pm
content: but analog scopes are smaller then DSO

author: Alfons
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 05:44:54 pm
content: At the moment, besides my Rigol DSO, I also have three analog oscilloscopes, a Tek 475, a 2467B and a 7603, all very useful devices. The Rigol is not bad, light, portable and usable for most things. However, working with the analogs is easier and faster, they usually trigger the signal faster and with far fewer adjustments. By the way: they are all very sharp, no fuzzy signal presentation, which I really like. I can not confirm that the signal quality would suffer from the Tek devices. Disadvantage: they need space and with slow signals they are not usable.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 06:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: Martin.M on September 21, 2019, 03:01:11 pmThey are indeed. This was the smallest one I ever had, which was broken as always:Some other gear (UT61E etc etc) during repair to compare size:I own nothing in that picture nowI do have 4 working analogue scopes and a digital one though

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 11:53:22 pm
content: I connected my signal generator to my two digital and one analog scopes and observed the wave, and measured it.It pointed out the clear advantages of the analog scope for many purposes. It's fast, accurate, and user friendly. It measures things differently but gives the same results. It doesn't store waves but I don't need that most of the time.But it sets up in a way that makes it clear and unambiguous what it's measuring. Not so the digital units, that get confused with signals that are too small or too slow, etc.So the short answer is yes, I use analog much of the time. If I want to see, for instance, if a microphone has output, the analog unit is the device to use. If I want to see an amplitude modulated wave, again the analog unit works best.For many measurements a spectrum analyzer is better than an oscilloscope.Every instrument has its area where it does a good job, even the lowly analog VOM. And that one needs no power supply, as well as being isolated from the rest of the equipment.

author: Fezder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 10:54:23 am
content: Got both analog (kenwood cos-5040 100MHz/4channel) and digital (rigol ds1054z, with upgraded firmware)I use digital mostly nowadays since I actually have learnt to use it (yeah right....). Only I have trouble triggering on pure DC signal, like 9v battery voltage apart from single shot/rolling, which I can in my understanding with analog. Analog I use mostly as curve tracer and other stuff that needs proper XY-mode. It has some issues with smaller voltages where trace jumps bit after setting, due that I don't use it on very small voltages. Speaking of smaller voltages, rigol shows all unrelevant information, but of course that can be cured with settings like persistence and waveform averaging (stuff that dave addressed in his video about digital oscilloscopes appearing noisy).Also I miss not having vernier adjustment on my analog scope! Really pity.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 11:08:54 am
content: Quote from: Fezder on September 24, 2019, 10:54:23 amTriggering on a flat DC voltage isn't really a thing.In "Auto" triggering mode your DS1054Z will display a trace using a timeout as well as a real trigger.In the top corner of the screen it shows "Auto" when the trace was being drawn because of timeout and "T’D" when a trace was drawn because of a real trigger event.See the "Trigger mode" section of the manual.

author: Fezder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 02:40:41 pm
content: Yeah, that auto mode is the method I use for triggering at DC signal. Didn't remember that setting during writing...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 03:35:05 am
content: Quote from: Martin.M on September 21, 2019, 02:58:07 pmI've always wanted a Tek 222. Not badly enough to pay what one costs but they sure are neat. I remember when they came out, seemed amazing, still impressive to this day. I actually hadn't realized until now that they were DSOs, I assumed they were analog.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 03:43:43 am
content: Mostly on DSO because of the single shot, the Tek is rarely used, as my hobbyist need on > 100 MHz is minimal.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 03:57:09 am
content: I have 3 in total: 2 analog and one digital (MSO). I use my Tek 2245 mostly because its quick to start and easy to set up and read. My 2225 is only used for signals < 1 or 2mv (500uV/div mode) so rarely. My HP 54622D I only acquired a few months ago and have yet to find a spot on my bench for it but I suspect it will be the most used going forward. I may have to sell the 2245 as I never use more than 2 channels. At least one analog for XY mode must be retained even if it is rarely used.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 04:04:09 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2019, 11:08:54 amThis was the function that bugged me most with the only early DSO I actually used over a reasonable length of time.(A Tek THS720A)When I troubleshoot equipment, I use a 'scope "DC coupled" & in "free running" mode to look at the DC power supplies as I go along.There is usually no need for high accuracy--- if say a supply looks "about" 5v, it is probably OK.You then can look at signal levels, only triggering the instrument when you need to.Try as I might, I couldn't find an equivalent of making an analog 'scope "free run".The nearest was "roll mode", which wasn't really satisfactory, because, instead of the whole line shifting upwards when the probe was placed on, say +5v, it would display it as a transient.It seems modern DSOs do not have this limitation, & thereisa workaround with the THS720A, but It it wasn't evident at the time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 05:18:48 am
content: Every DSO I've used has an auto trigger mode that gives you a free running trace. The oldest have been from the mid 90s though (TDS300) so it's certainly possible that others didn't. That would be annoying for sure.

author: Martin.M
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 08:12:23 am
content: sometimes oldies can work in areas where the DSO gives a white flag

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 03:56:59 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 13, 2019, 04:04:09 amAll analog oscilloscopes do automatic triggering in about the same way but digital storage oscilloscopes use a variety of methods to implement it with some being more user friendly than others.The straightforward way would be to simply automatically trigger as fast as possible for the highest acquisition rate but this produces the most smeared display which can actually hide the signal characteristics other than uncorrelated envelope. Better may be to periodically pause and highlight a single acquisition so that the actual waveform can be seen; Dave showed this in one of his videos.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 10:56:32 pm
content: I use an HP 1980, and am not sure that I can call it a strictly analog scope since it has several ancient processors in it.Works just fine for most things I want to use it for, use Spectrum analyzers most of the time now though...Even has digital memory for waveforms!!! (pretty crappy waveforms though)Wally

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 01:38:42 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 12, 2019, 03:56:59 pmI made a similar comment on the apparent lack of auto triggering on the THS720A elsewhere, & was directed to a section in the manual which told how to do it.Itisa normal function, not a "workaround" as I suggested, but it isn't immediately obvious, unlike many of the other functions on that 'scope.As when I let my 'scope "free run", I am effectively using it as a large scale analog DC voltmeter (with benefits), I don't much care how fast it triggers, as long as the trace appears as a continuous line on the screen, which moves vertically with the application of DC voltages.I find this so much more convenient than swapping back & forth between 'scope & DMM.Of course, if a DC level looks wrong, the meter is there to get a more accurate value, & if there is an ac component on a supply that shouldn't be there, I can quickly adjust the 'scope to investigate.

author: drfrasher
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 07:26:28 am
content: And even in 2020! Having a great working Tek 7904 gives me 500 mhz in analog. Yes some of the newer and/or higher end digi scopes can do that very well or better including the math functions. But only in a VERY high price range. Digi scopes in the same price range can't begin to compare with accurate display of these higher frequencies and fast rise times.I DO have an older Tek TDS360 which is ok for below 50 mhz or so, fast checks on the measurements and such, but the FFT is completely useless, and and the wave form can't be trusted on anything fast unless it's repetitive, with high sample rate. But then acquisition time is unbearably slow. and you'll miss any random events, noise distortion.If I had the budget, sure. However $5-6k and up, is just too much for my hobby use.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 10:21:48 am
content: Quote from: drfrasher on February 17, 2020, 07:26:28 amFor hobby use you don't need to spend anywhere near to $5k for a decent 500MHz or better DSO unless you want it brand new.There are many used high BW scopes for pretty reasonable prices.For example, something like a LeCroy LC574 (1GHz 4GSa/s, up to 8M) in good condition should be obtainable for notably below $1k. If that's still to much, there are scopes like the LeCroy 9374 (1GHz 2GSa/s, up to 8M) which can sometimes be found below $500.Even a something like a 2GHz WavePro 960 with 16GSa/s and 64M memory or a 3GHz WavePro 7300 (20GSa/s, 64/96M) can occasionally be found below $2k.All give you tons of measurements, large FFTs and a bunch of waveform analysis options.There's also the HP/Agilent 54800 Series of Infiniium scopes, which can often be found reasonably cheap (especially the early ones running Windows9x). Lots of hacking opportunities, and some models also have decent memory sizes.If for some reason it has to be Tek, there are even some Tektronix DSOs which can be had for cheap (i.e. a TDS744 500MHz which is often around $500). Although compared with other scopes from the same era they are pretty lackluster in terms of capabilities.There are lots of good options for a good high BW scope, especially if you have some patience to wait for the right opportunity.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 01:22:33 am
content: Even the Rigol and its clearance bin (where I got my DS4014) is pretty far from the $5k mark. Sure, it has some limitations but for hobby use is quite capable.https://www.rigolna.com/clearance/I think Siglent also has a clearance bin.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 01:38:44 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 18, 2020, 01:22:33 amYep and not much in it ATM.https://siglentna.com/products/clearance/