Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:18:08 pm
content: Products like CPUs, GPUs, phones/ etc have made huge leaps since I've been using them over the decades.I have a 1980's 200MHz DSO, and a +2015 200MHz DSO, with more options and a nicer screen and more memory, and it's lighter and more compact. That's a lower end Siglent sds1(2)04x-e. Even mid-range Siglent and Rigol scopes are into the $1000's of dollars still. I never even consider top brands, because I bet their new 50MHz scopes are still $1000.Maybe in the last 20yrs the multi-GHz scopes, and 6-7-8d DMMs have been getting a lot better and faster. But they cost too much for most people, (not that I need a multi GHz scope).So where do people expect us to be in another 10yrs ?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:41:46 pm
content: Hi,At work we got some very old lecroy DSOs from the early 90s.With 50kpts memory and 100Msa/s max. ....So I thought this was long time ago, today it should be better, more and cheaper.Better and more is correct, but cheaper...Even nowadays these old scopes got features you won´t find on the modern cheap and good scopes, you find them on the modern expensive scopes of today...Many things are getting cheaper, thank god otherwise I hadn´t a DSO.But it seems there´s an invisible red line you can´t go under what quality/features/specs in relationship with price concerns.Today you can also spend more than 10000 bucks on scopes from rigol and siglent.....

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:28:26 pm
content: My Rigol scope I’ve had for nine years you can still buy brand new today. So in some respects I’d say nothing will be different.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:24:29 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on October 22, 2022, 08:18:08 pm100% irrelevant.Quote from: MathWizard on October 22, 2022, 08:18:08 pmI think touch screens will be standard. Apart from that ... pretty much the same.$400 DSOs already have all possible features (more or less) and the laws of physics aren't going to change to allow them to have 10Ghz bandwidth.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:10:07 am
content: They will be paper thin, cloud connected and we will pay subscription fees to use selected features.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 05:55:40 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on October 22, 2022, 08:18:08 pmBased on physics I think we are near the end of the evolution of CPU's and GPU's in the sense of moore's law. So apart from 3D chips I don't expect much improvement there. But what can be seen is the rise in bit width on the ADC's. The 12, 14 and even 16 bit scopes will become cheaper. But high bandwidth, high sample rate devices (>GHz) will probably remain expensive.But who knows. Quantum computers or optical computers might bring something completely new to the table.And price wise it will either go up like everything else at the moment or remain at what is. Just look at computers over the last decade. Sure they got faster and have more memory but the price for a similar setup remained more or less the same.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:33:38 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 23, 2022, 05:55:40 amBut the operating system and software have kept up with that curve.CPU clock speeds have stagnated. RAM size is stagnating. We all have SSDs now.Graphics has a little way to go yet, but not much.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:43:49 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 07:33:38 amUnfortunately

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:50:59 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on October 22, 2022, 08:18:08 pmYep, mainly from integration but miniaturization/SMD also.QuoteAnd we'd still be paying through the nose for gear without the competition from the Asian brands.In my lifetime a good but nothing fancy scope cost the same as a house 50 years back whereas the SDS1204X-E DSO you have runs rings around anything of modest value from last century.QuoteI don't believe you will see this sort of equipment change much as the market sector is small and development significant.QuoteEven more choice but some with fish hooks....look at some barrel bottom brands with their very limited sensitivity that excludes them from some tasks. Experienced users spot this stuff a mile off but novices get sucked in by the price.As B brands learn their craft a steady push into higher levels of technical achievement and a continuation of class leading at their price points.More innovation, that is adding new capability into product ranges and new specialist product lines, Siglents soon to be released SDS6000L headless DSO being a fine example.My last 10 years has been a wild ride and we live in such interesting times.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:06:14 am
content: I believe we will see more fragmentation in CPUs and GPUs.Why do you think both Intel and AMD bought FPGA companies?Look at the architecture of a Zynq FPGA for example. You havea powerful CPU with an SoC, and a Programmable Logic area.Now envision a x86 10 core Intel/AMD CPU with a large PL area.You will be able to load custom accelerator blocks based on yourapplication. If you need a real time FFT, you will load a FFTmodule in to PL, if you need high performance floating point,you load a FPU block, etc ....I think this and much lower power consumption is what we willsee in CPUs and GPUs.I also believe that high end DSOs will become cheaper: Look atADC prices over the last 20 years. The prices have dropped,while performance has increased. I think this trend will continue.The same goes for front end analog sections. I think we will seebetter components (lower noise, higher dynamic range) becomeavailable at much lower cost than they are today ...Cheers,luudee

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:50:06 am
content: I doubt we will see bandwidth/$ drop a lot, but more processing might become a thing.I'm mostly interested in the high-bandwidth end and am very curious when R&S will push beyond the 'low' speeds, and into the realm of the scopes used for SERDES and similar communication applications.When it comes to that sector (high-speed communications) I imagine the lines between BERT and scope will blur further. You already see this with Keysight having BERT functionality in their high speed scopes when used in conjunction with an high-speed keysight AWG (provided you are happy with BER<10e-6, which is fine for a lot of applications now).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 05:07:33 am
content: My observations are anecdotal at best, but it seems to me that the trend is likely to follow a similar path as has been seen in the past.My expectations: You will continue to have similar pricing of equipment across markets - with performance and feature sets scaling appropriately. The point where we find "High End" gear just shifts up as technology allows. For example, scopes in the 50GHz category are going to be priced in a comparatively similar manner as 5GHz scopes have been in the past.Certainly there will be watershed moments where new technologies make great leaps in capability - but the marketing crowd know how to price that. Inexpensive manufacturing does not mean low prices - well, not with "Brand name" products - but the cloners will have a ball.Just my 2 cents.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:33:01 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on October 22, 2022, 08:18:08 pmIn the early 2000s, every couple of years you could buy a new desktop CPU that was twice as fast. In the last 10 years things have stagnated big time. Consider that a current flagship CPU is only about twice as fast for single threaded tasks compared to a flagship CPU from 10 years ago:https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-3770-vs-Intel-Core-i9-12900/1979vsm1668917Sure you can get a CPU with twice as many cores compared to 10 years ago, but in day to day tasks typically no more than twice the performance is realized because client side software rarely takes advantage of more than a few cores, and clients rarely perform more than 1 task that demands 100% thread utilization.Also seems that things like software demands have stagnated for the average user too. A PC from 15 years ago is quite sufficient to browse the internet and write word documents. Imagine trying to browse the internet and use the latest software in the year 2000 with a PC from 1985. Not even PC games and video are really driving the need for improved hardware anymore - e.g. for most applications the difference between 1080p and 4K video is imperceptible, let alone 8K video. Perhaps the only thing actually driving the need for faster hardware is developers getting lazier and making more inefficient code, and bloatware.Any advances in entry level and mid range oscilloscopes will reflect what is available in terms of FPGA/SoC technology, something that again has been rather stagnant in recent times. Also as capabilities become in excess for what the average user needs, development cycles for new models become longer and longer. Consider the Rigol DS1052E was released in 2009 and was made almost entirely outdated and irrelevant by the DS1054Z only 5 years later. Now we've had the DS1054Z for 8 years, and nothing seems to be around the corner that will render it outdated.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 07:08:35 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 24, 2022, 04:40:28 amIjustmade some replacement PCB's that convert these Renata 1000-7 backup batteries to CR2032 cells for my Tek AFG5101 func gen.PM me if you want one of my spare PCB's for the cost of shipping.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 07:20:17 am
content: Quote from: TMM on October 24, 2022, 06:33:01 amWhere have you been since 2017 ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 09:47:30 am
content: I predict that Fluke will be making the exact same 87V.(...and that every Fluke meter below it in price will have something important missing so you won't buy them)

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:54:32 am
content: I am very unhappy about cheap (say, <2000$) scopes market.It's all flawed stuff, and what spites me is that it seems it's intentionally flawed.What do we have? Let's make a recap starting from 500$ up to 2000.- the 1104x-e.Great in terms of price/performance but it's a vacuum cleaner. It can house a fan of just 60mm, so you can't really improve the acoustical performance by installing a better one. Plus, you need to shell out other money to get the bode plots.- the MSO5k.The noise will eat you alive.- the MicsigsNo statistics. I'm not gonna do paper calculations for such trivial stuff after having spent 600$ for the damn scope.- The SDS2x+Acoustically noisy all the same, and it starts crossing that line of price which makes you ask yourself if you should buy a western scope. So let's talk about them.- The RTB2KYou are not going to buy it (4chs) with 2K$ and it has a horrid reflective screen, and it feels plasticky. Difficult to install a matte screen film because the screen is recessed.- The PicosBad price/features ratio and the 4chs will not be available for a while.- The KS 1204G.1400 bucks for a 7" scope with many features missing? And the fan is noisy almost as the 1104's. No way.So you start to think that you will save and buy a Tek 2 series. 4chs, just 70 MHz for 3000 bucks. Ok, I can live with that, after all you get a vesa mount, a big, bright sceen, a lot of features and it has the damn brand name on it, so that you can brag about owning it.Then you discover it just got 10M memory depth. I'm not gonna spend 3 grands for a 10M scope.So, there is no viable scope for a student/hobbyst.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 10:54:32 amI am sorry, but this is getting comical. You do realize that not so long there might not have been a single "viable" scope on the market (silent, low noise FE, large screen, super deep memory, full set of analysis features and what not) atanyprice-point, right?I realize you want something without a noisy fan and actually I sympathise. In a lab with a noisy aircon and other stuff running all the time, it might barely be noticable, but after-hours at home I agree that it can be quite annoying. But that is a niche requirement, so if you really cannot live with the fan at all, you'll probably just have to pay more and maybe give up statistics or make do with "only" 10M sample memory or learn to apply a screen protector or something.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:48:15 pm
content: There is a bit of a point in the fan noise level being absurd. For just a little more money they could implement fan control and use fans that are less noisy.It is being done in the computer industry. My PC's are not loud at all, because I invested in a quiet CPU cooler and fan less power supplies.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 10:54:32 amPaper? You don't own a calculator?Do you know exactly how often you'll need those?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 05:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 24, 2022, 01:34:08 pmThat's my point. These are all little aspects that make using the oscilloscope enjoyable and the money worth spending. It seems you have to forcefully give up on something, while implementing such stuff would be quite easy for the manufacturers.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 05:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2022, 01:57:37 pmBy saying paper I mean paper and a calculator. I'm not gonna press pesky buttons on a calculator when almost any scope does those calcs automatically. And I need them quite often.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 05:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 24, 2022, 01:48:15 pmExactly... They could make it silent at little or no cost at all.And, as I said elsewhere, the pc workstation I built is much more silent than a commercial A-brand workstation (that costs 2X at the very least) with the same specs. That's because I implemented good airflow, sensors, and bought quality fans.BAd engineering should not pass for 'normal' or even 'a necessary evil'.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 05:38:57 pm
content: Lots of things might happen to oscilloscopes in the next 10 years. However, nothing much has happened to DMMs in the last 30 years, except who makes the popular ones. Why would that change in the next 10 years?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 05:41:18 pm
content: The same stands for the VESA mount. How does it cost to drill four holes in the back and make it just a bit more sturdy? Nothing.The scope wouldn't get in your way, and its use would be 10X more ergonomic.But no. I'm asking too much.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 05:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 10:54:32 amAre you a bot? Or getting paid by the word?Text us when you have made your decision.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:01:41 pm
content: "I can think of one drawback for each option, therefore I can't possibly choose!"Look, I get it, I feel that way too sometimes, just remember that you have intentionally excluded the common mode from your analysis. It is irrelevant for choosing between options, but the fact is that all of our choices are good and cheap these days vs not too long ago, and that fact is hiding in the common mode. If you can't choose right, you can't choose wrong. Roll a dice if you must.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 05:33:19 pmClaiming that means there is no viable scope is ridiculous, though. Engineers and hobbyists have been using various scopes for decades. All the way back to tube-based analog scopes. And now suddenly none of those scopes are good enough for hobby use? Sure, features are nice to have, but none of them are essential.Quote from: coppice on October 24, 2022, 05:38:57 pmThe HP 34401A had a alphanumeric VFD, while the 3445x/6x/7x series have a graphical LCD that can do trend plots, histograms etc. On the handheld front we have some models like the Fluke 289 that have similar features. I'd say that's progress and something that can be very useful if the form factor allows a large enough display (e.g. bench DMM).I wouldn't expect too much change on the analog side, we're not going to see 6.5 digit handhelds becoming popular. But I expect changes in the UI, just like the Keysight 34461A is quite different from the HP/Agilent 34401A. Also I expect to see the digital sampling of AC signals (what Keysight calls TrueVolt) instead of analog True-RMS converters to become more common.

author: Axtman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:14:27 pm
content: The future of digital multimeters will be wristwatch multi-meters! Duh!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 05:38:22 pmIt actually isn't cheap or easy to make things reliable and quiet. If customers demanded silent products the market would necessitate their production. I'm guessing you are just bothered more about fan noise than most. I've built quiet PCs too--with a great deal of effort--for special purposes (HTPC/Hi-Fi room) but other than that unless it is a very whiny rack server fan, I'm not really bothered by a bit of fan noise. The only instrument I have with a truly annoying fan is an HP signal generator that sounds like a bench grinder. And as for cheapo vs A-brand, I have two Tek scopes--both over $5K new--that are noisier than either of my stock Siglents. And my Tek PS280 PSU has the loudest fan of anything on or near my bench (the HP sig gen is banished to the garage unless needed).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:33:22 pm
content: For some reason i just had a flashback to my youth.. I remembered the book "The Princess and the Pea" by Hans Christian Andersen.. I have no idea why ...

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:45:49 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on October 24, 2022, 06:01:41 pmYou aren't wrong.Still...

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 24, 2022, 06:29:53 pmGot the message. A-brand doesn't (necessarily) mean more care for details and ergonomics.Sad.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2022, 06:33:22 pmHa. Ha.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 08:49:51 pmWell, you are a bit picky, you know...

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:11:35 pm
content: Well, let's say we were designing a budget oscilloscope and our market research found that suddenly absolutely no one wants to buy anything with a noisy fan anymore (although for some reason most of the survey participants had the same IP address based in Italy, weird that). So we decide to make silent operation a prime design goal and "go to town". Good thermal design is free after all, right? So what do we do?- massive custom heatsinks help; they are also expensive and require mechanical support- bigger, slower fans are a lot quieter; and you will probably need to design a new, bigger case to fit them- well, if we are designing a new case and have new injection moulds made, at least we can re-design for better airflow as well (maybe hire a specialist?)- oh no, the PSU has minimum airflow requirements we don't meet anymore; well, not to despair, we just get a more expensive one with higher-rated parts; or, how about a custom one that integrates nicely with our new case, I mean how much can that really cost?- our main board may now run a bit hotter, that may be bad for realibility. Oh well, let's order some Nichicon 105°C caps and use the Crapxxon stockpile for something else instead.- we also have a potential for larger temperature-gradients in the frontend now; may need to loosen some of the specs a bit? Or find some lower TC parts?- the old model had a lot of headroom when it comes to cooling really, we figured "better safe than sorry" and were fairly confident it would be able to take almost anything customers would throw at it even with the vents all clogged up after a couple of years; we're flying a lot closer to the sun now but we'll just do really thorough environmental testing, so we will be fineFast forward to the launch date... Well, it was tough, but we made it.Ok, kinda. There were a lot of delays because of all the custom parts and the re-designs. Also the bike-shedding in design review meetings, everyone is a bloody expert in thermal design now, it was basically like reddit in there, soo annoying. And there was that embarassing incident when a prototype set a customer's lab on fire. But the software people say the fan-control bug is fixed now.So some minor features didn't get done in time and we moved most of the devs over to the new spectrum analyzer project. We just tell customers that "there is no public roadmap for new features at this time but software development is ongoing". It's not a lie either, Karen comes in twice a week to fix some bugs. Anyway, it's mostly just statistics and some weird memory-management stuff that no-one cares about that's missing. And it's just twice the price of our direct competitor's product, which is soo much louder.It's a great day, it's just a little sad that our social media manager quit today because he "couldn't take the abuse anymore". Some guy calling himself balnazzar was spamming rants everywhere about how the new scope "has really bad price/performance" and is "useless because it doesn't have basic features" and that he would rather use a rusty nail and a light bulb.* I originally wanted to write a serious post about thermal design but I am currently home sick and may not quite be my normal boring self. There is stilll a serious point here: nothing is free, there are almost always trade-offs.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 06:16:14 am
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 24, 2022, 11:11:35 pmAhahhahaah brilliant!! Love it!

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 03:01:11 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 24, 2022, 11:11:35 pmSounds very similar to a group of folks discussing a high performance custom chip design, with none have ever designed a chip or likely high performance anything before, yet somehow are self proclaimed "experts" in suchCouple of cases in point:About 4 decades ago we were tasked with designing a passive portable remote sensing chemical agent detector for battlefield use. A part of the spec was altered to require surviving a Point Blank Thermal Nuclear Detonation!! Common sense says, which we unsuccessfully argued, who really cares about a potential chemical attack when you've just been nuked, and everything left standing is highly radioactiveWe passed the test (blast Heat and Pressure Wavefront and EMP), and his single requirement likely tripled the instrument cost!!Another case involved a custom CMOS specialized ADC chip on a custom hybrid, a special requirement invoked was the hybrid had to survive a discharge from 25KV at 500 ohm source impedance, yep 50 amps peak!! This was likely someone that found the Body CMOS ESD spec and decided to "augment" it to make the system better. We passed, but the others involved didn't, eventually the spec was reduced to the usual CMOS ESD spec so the others could deliver their part of the system.Anyway, randomly tossed around specs can significantly drive the development and production cost and need to be carefully evaluated before invoking!!Best,

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 04:34:54 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 24, 2022, 11:11:35 pmWell, isn't this a gigantic spamming rant from someone who has half my # of posts (and I came here literally the other day), and either is some kind of minus habens or a person that intentionally pretends not to understand, and makes out of place use of hyperbolas. Rarely I've read posts so bestrewn with fallacies, but mainlyhttps://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-whiteSimply read or watch any review of the R&S RTB2000. It's barely audible. Same price of its A-brand competitors, or a bit less. Same size.Does this simple observation provide a reply to your long list of silly and ill-articulated points?Quote from: 2N3055 on October 25, 2022, 06:16:14 amSome prefer to behave not like the average high-school bully, but like his follower, the cowardly one.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 04:52:04 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 05:41:18 pmWe actually included a VESA mount on the new MXO4 oscilloscope

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 04:59:33 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on October 25, 2022, 04:52:04 pmThat's great (seriously). But the MXO4 is not really a scope that private customers can buy.. At least not a good 99% of them.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:01:13 pm
content: Please add VESA holes to the next iteration of the RTB2000 (or however it'll be called).

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 24, 2022, 01:48:15 pmQuote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 04:34:54 pmDespite being screaming fast (4.5M waverforms /sec) the new MXO4 is also whisper quiet - like, "is it on?" quiet. We're very proud of thatAs a T&M instrument manufacturer, we get a LOT of feedback about acoustic levels: you might be surprised how important "quiet" is to a lot of customers. Over time, I think (audio) noise level is going to become a much more important differentiator when it comes to instrument purchases.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:17:10 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on October 25, 2022, 05:12:26 pmI agree. Nowadays test equipment that has huge fans + noise is just a no-go. A couple of decades ago I brought my own (huge) Tektronix DAS9200 logic analyser to work. I set it up on my desk and turned it on. My co-worker that sat across my desk wasn't happy because the huge amount of air coming from the back of the logic analyser blew all the papers from his desk quickly.As I'm a getting a bit older I also start to become more annoyed by noisy equipment. Typically I don't want to have equipment with fans on longer than strictly necessary.edit: typo

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:22:21 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 05:01:13 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rtb2004-vesa-mod/msg4222681/#msg4222681Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 05:01:13 pmAs a hobbyist and ham radio operator, I very much appreciate having access to instruments I could never, ever afford to buy with my own money. That said, the thread was about where scopes and meters will be in 10 years, and I do feel fairly confident a lot of the "higher end" innovations will trickle down into the more (personally) affordable instruments. I've been working in test and measurement for about 25 years now, and I'm perpetually amazed when I compare modern "entry level" instruments to "high end" instruments from a decade or two ago.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:22:54 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on October 25, 2022, 05:12:26 pmIt's quite remarkable that we are hearing this from someone who works in manufacturing oscilloscopes. But the blokes above seem to have a hard time understanding ergonomics.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:32:59 pm
content: Getting back to the question, we'll see further capability and features make it into "entry level" instruments but the entry level won't change that much. Scopes will still cost $400, but they may offer 12--14 bits, 2Gsa/s or 200MHz and 4ch at the base level. On the DMM side we might see 5.5 digits and 4W ohms for under $300, 6.5 digits for $500. Along those lines.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:34:00 pm
content: Where do i see scopes and DMMs in 10 years...Lecroy had a really expensive scope with detachable screen. I've read somewhere here that it was a disaster, but i think that will be one of the things of the future: a more than decent acquisition module coupled with a screen. Together they look like a scope, but you can separate the screen from the acquisition module and see everything and interact realtime via a really high speed radio link. Wired connection too, maybe. So what lecory tried, but better and affordable. Reason is bench space, having to insulate between the user and the DUT, DUT being not really accessible. An evolution of todays tablet/portable scopesWe already have wireless multimeters with some basic scope functionality, but of course you are constrained by BLE bandwidth and the fact that you're running an app on a phone.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on October 25, 2022, 05:22:21 pmI thought about that a lot. My only worry was (other than the warranty) that the plastic would break as time passes. If there is space for another metal laminate shield on the *inside*, I think it's doable and the plastic enclosure won't break.Other random thoughts...:I don't know how the airflow is directed in R&S scopes, but on a brand I know a bit better the fan blows from the inside towards the outside of the scope.This has major disadvantages:1. A smaller amount of air will blog through the components (perhaps contrarily to intuition).2. The inside of the scope will have a negative pressure (that is, will suckle in air from any opening no matter how small). This renders filtering the fan vitually impossible. In time, dust and grime will accumulate upon the pcb, the caps, the heatsinks, the chips.. Thus reducing the thermal efficiency and the reliability of the instrument.3. OTOH, a fan blowing towards the inside of the instrument can be easily filtered (just place a Demciflex filter on its vent) and will create a positive pressure into the scope, thus keeping dust&grime accumulation away.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:38:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 25, 2022, 05:17:10 pmSame here. And this is particularly true if you're in a (home) office instead of a lab. When there are 50 other sets of fans going in a lab, one more fan is not usually a big deal, but it's very noticeable / annoying when you're in an otherwise quiet environment.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 25, 2022, 05:34:00 pmFirst attempts are often disasters, but one has to give credit to the pioneer who invested time & money.You can, however, have something similar.1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.2. Another is treating the scope just like an acquisition unit and use the integrated web server or the usb software, with you computer monitor as a big, hi-res screen. Preferably attached to a vesa arm by itself, so not to occupy bench space. On-screen-keyboard and just a mouse on the bench.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 05:36:30 pmI probably should have said that the link was "for entertainment purposes only"There may be other ways of adding a VESA mount to an RTB, but I'm pretty sure that none of these modifications will ever be officially sanctioned by R&S. Sorry!

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 06:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on October 25, 2022, 05:55:48 pmI vaguely suspected that.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 06:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on October 25, 2022, 05:22:21 pmSame. I remember ogling over electronic magazines 50 years ago wondering how I could ever afford one. That's when I discovered our school science lab had one, a Tek IIRC so I greased our science teacher to get to use it on personal projects at lunchtime.Will never forget the look on his face when after checking the ripple on my 320V valve PSU when he found out the voltages I was fiddling with when aged 13.QuoteJust the last 10 years has been amazing !

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 07:07:29 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 05:43:01 pmMind that i was just answering the question in the title thread, what i have in mind is nothing that is currently available on the market, nor something that i can cobble together, nor something i desperately wantyou do seem to have an answer for everythingis this why you're unsatisfied by the current scope market?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 07:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 05:43:01 pmIf only there were VESA-like arms with little shelves on them.Maybe somebody could invent one to save us from having to drill holes in our equipment.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 07:47:31 pm
content: "I couldn't find the oscilloscope of my dreams, so I built it myself." - Howard Vollum

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 07:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2022, 07:45:04 pmGo on Amazon or Aliexpress. You'll find dozens.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 08:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 25, 2022, 06:43:37 pmMaybe we'll see some new type ADCs utilized in DSOs within the next decade, something along the lines of simultaneous time and amplitude waveform quantization like the Non-Uniform Sampling concepts that were being developed before we retired a few years ago, where the actual input signal waveform dictates various ADC characteristics including post ADC quantization anti-aliasing filtering!!Must admit, didn't expect as good a performer as the SDS2000X+ we acquired a few years ago as our first out-of-pocket DSO, remarkable instrument for the $ IMO!!Anyway, looking forward to the future!!Best,

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 10:54:32 amYou missed the GW-Insteks in your roast.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 25, 2022, 07:51:06 pmIndeed. But it's not the same thing.A scope directly screwed to a vesa arm will be stable. On a shelf attached to a vesa arm, it won't.That's probably why that RTB2000 user drilled his scope enclosure.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:20:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2022, 10:02:11 pmUnderspecced for their price. Like they were a-brand. But they aren't.Plus, they lack modern features more often than not.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 25, 2022, 07:07:29 pmAlas, not for everything.But you got the point nonetheless: I have a very clear idea about what I'd like to see implemented, and no scope within typical hobbyst/student pocket's range truly delivers all the package. Then, I can just think about workarounds.It doesn't help that the manufacturers do practice customer segmentation so enthusiastically.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 10:18:53 pmNo it's not but on a VESA arm with a shelf and zip tied down it ain't going anywhere.Sure we can add the perfect fastening solution but the cost goes up when a simple fix will be perfectly adequate. Why make things harder than they need be ?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:39:26 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 25, 2022, 10:29:41 pmYes and no.If you use zip ties you have to use quite a few of them to secure the scope, or it will wobble and recoil every time you press a button. It'll be ugly, but not only that. Since the zip ties will be plastic and the scope chassis plastic all the same, you got very low friction, and consequently you have to tighten the ties a lot. Not sure they'll not gnaw dents into the chassis as time passes. Then you have to bring the scope around every now and then. So, untie and tie back down. With the vesa holes, it's just 4 screws to unscrew.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 12:14:35 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 10:27:27 pmYou are wrong here. There is no oscilloscope out there that is simply perfect. You'd need to spend tens of millions of $US dollars to have the perfect oscilloscope developed. Mere mortals end up buying several oscilloscopes; each suitable for a range of tasks. If you dig deeper you'll see that there is a surprising gap between the abilities of oscilloscopes. Like every manufacturer has it's own idea about what is really important.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 01:23:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 26, 2022, 12:14:35 amThat's exactly what leaves me surprised. They could easily manufacture not the perfect oscilloscope, but almost, for each price range. Of course I cannot demand to buy a 10 GHz oscilloscope with my money. But.. I mean, a noisy fan maybe doesn't bother all the potential customers, but surely bothers some, while a silent fan will make everyone happy. Same for a matte screen. For a vesa mount. And those are all things that cost near to nothing.Other stuff might be costly, you'd argue. For example, a clean, non-noisy front end. But as we have shown before, the Owon 1022i was able to see quite clearly a 2 mVpp signal that for the MSO5000 was just random noise, or close to.And that's a scope going by 119 eur vat included. It requires, I don't know, 20$ to manufacture it?My whole point here is that the end users seem to have that philosophy of being happy with what falls from the sky, no matter how flawed it is. "Falls" here is a figure of speech, since these products are not cheap.If users were a bit more demanding, the manufacturers would adjust, as our friend from R&S honestly told us. More to the point, he told us that when a certain number of customers make the manufacturer aware of design flaws, they put some real effort into adressing them.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 03:16:59 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2022, 07:45:04 pmMesa tink dat arm cos more dan mesa scope! Mesa oberly sad.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 06:56:24 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on October 26, 2022, 03:16:59 amThe forum members advised me that it was a good investment. People should always buy the best arm possible, just in case they might need it one day.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 12:58:51 pm
content: I am not sure if it was mentioned, but I think that more and more popular oscilloscopes will start to break beyond the 8-bit limit of the current offers as ADCs decrease in price.(from my hobbyist point of view, that would be the most interesting feature that would make me consider moving away from my beloved Rigol DS4014).As for DMMs, I think the race to the bottom will continue and the form factor changes will bring interesting developments for the handhelds. I think that remote connectivity will continue to improve (BT solutions nowadays are a bit iffy, TBH).

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 01:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 26, 2022, 12:58:51 pmIndeed already mentioned, and can be seen already. Take the new Rigol 12bit scope for 700 bucks excluding vat.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 01:06:59 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 26, 2022, 01:04:07 pmIt is 999 € excluding VAT. With VAT it is almost 1200€https://rigolshop.eu/hdo1074.html

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 01:10:38 pm
content: The two channel is cheaper

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 01:21:53 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 26, 2022, 01:10:38 pmI don't think anybody should buy 2 ch scope anymore.. You cannot even look at the SPI bus signals without it..Especially that price difference is not that great.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 06:57:58 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 26, 2022, 01:21:53 pmYou can but not both MOSI and MISO together.One channel must be on the clock and instead of connecting another to CS as you don't have a spare channel you use a Clk Timeout to emulate CS.These features are in the Siglent DSO's you have.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:14:25 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 26, 2022, 01:21:53 pmI can't remember the last time I used a scope with more than 2 probes plugged in. If I want to look at an SPI bus its usually for something specific. A clock channel and the one data line I am interested in is usually enough, and avoids me having to bother hooking up more test points. If a 4 channel scope is a low premium over a 2 channel one you might as well get the 4 channel model, but I wouldn't pay a high premium for the extra channels.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 26, 2022, 06:57:58 pmLet me clarify what I meant. I wasn't talking about decoding. For decoding single direction data you are absolutely right.But what I was referring to was seeing full SPI data (CLK, CS, MOSI, MISO) on analog level (and decoding if need be).Many times we need to measure both question and response and general timing for all 4 SPI lines. To basically be able to compare to timing diagrams in datasheet. Also (and this is when MSO comes in handy), for instance on AD/DA converters to correlate digital and analog data...To paraphrase TopGear, MOAR CHANNELS!!Joking on the side, there are many people out there whose needs are perfectly well served with 2ch scopes..That is why I said "I wouldn't buy". Emphasis onmyopinion based on my type of work.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 26, 2022, 07:20:07 pmI know exactly what you meant.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 26, 2022, 07:14:25 pmThat's fine, we all do different things different way. Each person chose their priorities. My point is that 2 ch scope with 2 probes is 700€ (no tax) and 4ch scope with 4 probes is 999€ (no tax). Difference is not peanuts but in percentage it is not so great. That is for new Rigol HDO1000. In meantime Rigol MS5000 is cheaper in basic 4 ch version then in 2ch. Go figure..

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:57:39 pm
content: I am with coppice on this one. Even if i do have a 4 channel scope I avoid using more than 1 channel as much as I can because fiddling with multiple probe cables drives me nuts. As it turns out 99% of the time 1 channel is all that is needed.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 08:12:19 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 26, 2022, 07:33:32 pmSinisa, it is 40% more... For a beginner it can give you a lot in the test gear department.My experience also reflects coppice and Bud here, but I agree it is entirely dependent on the usage. Analog electronics has use for one or two channels 99% of the time, while digital electronics might be better covered with other tools such as a cheap logic analyzer. Each to its own, I guess.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 26, 2022, 07:33:32 pmNowthatI don't understand... Go figure.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 08:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 26, 2022, 08:12:19 pmThe 4 channel one is on promotion right now. The 2 channel one isn't.

author: robert.rozee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 01:17:20 pm
content: we may see a role reversal in future, with an instrument that is primarily an 8 or 16-channel logic analyzer that includes a tightly-integrated 2-channel oscilloscope add-on.imagine 8 (or 16) BNC inputs running into to the logic analyzer portion, and then a pair of analog channels that can be switched arbitrarily to more closely examine any of the 8/16 inputs. this would well serve the needs of someone who is mostly interested in digital electronics, but at the same time has a need to occasionally inspect the shape/integrity of signals.most crudely, there would be two 16-position rotary switches that select which two of the 8 (or 16) inputs got the analog attention. the screen layout may consist of the two selected channels expanded vertically, so that as you rotated one of the rotary switches the digital traces would be shuffled up/down to accommodate the analog one(s).© me, 2022!cheers,rob :-)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 03:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on October 27, 2022, 01:17:20 pmIt’s almost here, the SDS6000L, a headless DSO of 4 or 8 analog channels with each unit supporting 16 digital channels and if you say that’s nothing special you’re correct but multiple units can be remotely ganged together to provide a max of 512 analog channels.There’s a thread here dedicated to them including the little we know about them at this time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 03:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on October 27, 2022, 01:17:20 pmI doubt that. Digital busses are going away more and more. Also your idea already exists. On my Tektronix logic analyser I can select 4 digital channels to have these output on 4 BNCs to check the signals with an oscilloscope (which could be build in as well through a DSO module).

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 07:11:30 pm
content: Since Rich just posted this on LinkedIn today: the definitions phase for our new MXO4 oscilloscope started around 2016 and development started in 2018.So the question "where will oscilloscopes be in 10 years?" will most likely be answered about ~5 years from now

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:00:43 pm
content: It's interesting to note that Keysight have milked the Megazoom IV ASIC for 12 years now, with no sign of a replacement in sight.In terms of update rate it's only recently been beaten by the R&S MXO4 series, but even that high end kit will drop from millions of waveforms/sec to under 1000/sec when you turn measurements on. So the 12yo Keysight still wins and nothing else can touch it for everyday responsiveness.With all the advancements in FPGA and processor horsepower tech, I find it strange that scopes still lack responsiveness in some basic operations.The winner this decade might be the one that can crack the best and fastest architecture when you turn all the features on.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 12:50:12 am
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 24, 2022, 01:34:08 pmBack in the day, much of my Oscilloscope use was in massive transmitter halls with a constant background noise of high volume blowers for the air cooled transmitting tubes, so any noise from the 'scope fan was negligible.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 12:53:05 am
content: In my case, my personal ones will probably be in landfill!Meanwhile, I will either be "pushing up daisies" or sitting in front of TV, doing a crash course of drooling down my cardigan!