Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 07:47:19 pm
content: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 08:09:30 pm
content: I heard about this a while ago and checked out their web site. I think that's been limiting their business. You can't browse their list of manuals, only search. I think that means that the search engines can't index any of their manuals. Which means that if I google for a manual, I won't find their site. At least, the two manuals I bought were unknown to google. And both of them came with a big pink sheet that said:LAST ONE!Customer get a copyReturn this to the floorLAST ONE!So sad.Ed

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 01:16:05 am
content: Dammit. This would be Manuals Plus.2002 Bethel Rd, Suite 105 Finksberg, MD.Phone 410-871-1555. Fax 410-871-1255em: sales@manualsplus.comweb:www.manualsplus.comGoogle maps:https://www.google.com/maps/place/2002+Bethel+Rd+%23105,+Finksburg,+MD+21048/@39.5426145,-76.9270742,17z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c838cf2bd77577:0x73f10597464e914aThey sent a flyer to customers (including me) last year announcing their impending going out of business. But then they were still listing on ebay long after the end date, so I'd assumed they'd changed their mind. Now suddenly it's "manuals being dumped in the trash"It's a tragedy, and should be criminal that they are dumpstering their manuals. Apparently with no attempt to advertise a giveaway. That counts as deliberate, premeditated destruction of cultural and technological treasures. Along the lines of destruction of libraries. (Btw, google that. It's happening a lot lately in a deliberate program by a certain group.)Hopefully it's not Becky doing the dumping. She is a very nice lady, and appreciates the worth of the manuals. I can't believe she'd do it, even if her boss told her to. That there was no flyer about the actual closure suggests Becky is no longer employed there. I don't know who the business owner is, but I'd certainly like some time 'alone with him.'I'm in Australia, or I'd be there with a semi and filling up shipping containers. WHHHY can't they donate them to an organization able to store them and give them away?I really do think that destroying these old and in some cases unique and irreplaceable manuals should be a crime.People should go there and recover the already dumpstered manuals. And shout abuse at the people doing the dumping. Maybe something involving iron bars and two by fours wouldn't be amiss either. The guy that decided to shut the business down without organizing for the manuals to be saved, deserves a very unpleasant fate. No, the crappy quality scans available online of *some* of these manuals do not count as 'preservation for posterity.' The idea that there are already adequate electronic copies of all these physical manuals is delusional.A similar thing happened in Australia with a manuals company called High Country Service Data, about 20 years ago. They had a warehouse of service manuals, including many from early Australian electronics companies like BWD. Recently I discovered they had 'gone digital' - had all their manuals scanned (with the very crap scanning technology of the time) then destroyed their entire physical archive. I literally wept. No, I don't want to buy your pathetic digital low quality copies, thanks very much. A*hole.Notice on google maps that the building is situated in a semi-rural area. Also ManualsPlus is just one unit of that old factory complex. How much can the storage costs be? Combined with the absence of any giveaway attempt makes me suspect the decision to destroy the manuals may be motivated more by an actual desire to destroy them, than by commercial reasons. So far as I know Becky was the only employee, and she always seemed to be worked off her feet with manuals sales.I can't type words expressing my feelings about this, since this is an all-ages forum. But a lot of them begin with F and C.Edit to add: Darnit. I wanted to save the article pics fromhttp://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683as a record of this cultural crime.But now the site is "Bandwidth limit exceeded".Sigh. It will probably stay that way a while. So I have to go grubbing in caches.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 01:22:15 am
content: @TerraHertz: Did it occur to you that they are going out of business because nobody wants the manuals? Then who would want to save them?I'm sure there will be couple of manuals in the collection which are sought after by people trying to maintain old gear but they really don't want to spend $75 for a manual for a piece of equipment they got for $10. The golden days for service manuals are over because service manuals don't exist anymore.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 01:47:11 am
content: Let's link these 2 threads together:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-needed-to-archive-te-manuals/

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 01:47:41 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 16, 2015, 01:22:15 amYour argument is invalid, and merely demonstrates that *you* don't want them. How many people buy ebay'd old gear? Did you actually look at ManualsPlus prices?QuoteYou are strawman arguing, and should know better. Not 'a couple', but many thousands of manuals. $75 is way too high, and $10 is 1 to 3 orders of magnitude too low for typical worthwhile bits of old gear. Also, speak to any historian about whether current commercial value is a true measure of historic value.QuoteHa ha, fine example of circular logic there. But the last phrase is precisely correct. Service manuals don't exist anymore. Are you saying that is a good thing?One of the ways in which these manuals are precious, is as a physical demonstration of what good technical documentation should be. To hold up against and shame present day outrageous lack of anything similar.And such examples are not useful if there's just ONE copy in some library somewhere. They need to be held in many copies across a population to have any effect. Every kid learning electronics should personally experience manuals like these, to make them question why present day manufacturers don't produce such things. To show them the benefits of having tech companies run by honest engineers working for the good of society, rather than by a bunch of soulless marketing droids and lawyers.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:07:23 am
content: I refuse to pay for manuals, why should I scan mine and give them free as I have always done for some ingrate to then sell it on ebay.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:11:24 am
content: Quote from: Deathwish on August 16, 2015, 02:07:23 amThat's what the FREE manual respository websites are for, upload your obscure manual to make it available to the masses for free.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:18:10 am
content: yes, I know but how many of those that now need to be rescued will suddenly become only available by ebay purchase !

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:21:52 am
content: Isn't there any chance of help from archive.org or Google or even the Library of Congress?Google have developed high-speed scanning technology and host thousands of books online.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:23:33 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 16, 2015, 02:11:24 amPretty sure he was just trolling.FWIW, here's the flyer from ManualsPlus in Dec 2014. I bought a few manuals as a result, but was/am too poor to go on a real splurge. Even given cheap shipping via shipito, and that ManualsPlus prices were always reasonable and Becky was being extra generous during the sale.Also I'm pretty sure I mentioned their impending closure here, but didn't save a link to the thread.Where are all the rich philanthropists, who could easily afford to organize a warehouse and one or two staff for this? Considering some of the stupid things people donate millions to, inability to get this done seems really sad.Btw, did anyone save the pics from the original article?

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:27:56 am
content: I was not trolling anyone thank you. I have always scanned what manuals I have and given them freely, I have even seen one or two then being sold against my wishes on ebay, it rankles and annoys me that people who will offer help to save a collection will then suddenly decide hey why shouldn't you pay for what I got free in the understanding i got them for nothing to save them for others to have freely.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:44:05 am
content: Quote from: Deathwish on August 16, 2015, 02:27:56 amWell you bought that upon yourself.Years ago I hunted high and low for a free Telequipment D83 manual and had to buy a scanned copy from the UK, it was the only source available at that time.Eventually I found an online copy, promptly downloaded it then uploaded to Ebaman, free for all.However it seems Ebaman is no longer online, links and some hunting points to a total loss of that archive by fire. A real shame.Preserving our technical legacywas Ebaman's motto and while it's honourable to do the same with this Baltimore resource how can we ensure it's safe for decades to come?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:55:03 am
content: Quote from: Deathwish on August 16, 2015, 02:27:56 amSorry then. Sometimes with your sense of humor it's hard to tell. (But I do enjoy your shenanigans.)The original article athttp://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683is now 'bandwidth exceeded'.But it was saved today and available at archive.org:https://web.archive.org/web/20150815114528/http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683(with pics)There's also "full photos from today’s shoot" here:https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/sets/72157657277241785Incidentally, that info about 'lease expired, can't justify cost of relocating' is a teeny bit suspect. That's not what I recall Becky saying in email to me early this year. I'll see if I can find that.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:01:47 am
content: Sounds like the Jason Scott already has some connection with Archive.org. The short term issue is sorting, hauling everything off and storing it until they can come up with a plan for archiving it.Jason Scott's site has exceeded its bandwidth quota :~ but apparently there is a paypal link to help with storage.As for burning libraries, I think someone else started doing that about, oh 2000 years ago?Update: Thanks for linking to the archive.org copy. I'm glad he's taking this on. I really hope they are checking printings/dates/revisions when eliminating "duplicates."

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:11:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 16, 2015, 02:44:05 amWhat? But Ebaman is working for me, still has my account details, and saved docs going back to (quick check) at least 2007. See screenshot taken just now.Can you please check again? If it's still inaccessible to you, that's interesting. I'll explain why, if you still can't see it.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:29:03 am
content: Quote from: eas on August 16, 2015, 03:01:47 amWhat sorting? It's already neatly sorted and indexed. The hard part would be preserving that during a move.Anyone in the US able to think of a way someone could put a legal hold on the destruction?QuoteOh yes, there's a long tradition of barbarism regarding libraries, much further back even than 2000 years. It's just lately there seems to be a new style. No flames and swords, same end result. I can't mention by whom and why here. But you can probably find out what I mean via google. Incidentally it's a practice I've seen with my own eyes, being done by the specific group (who we can't mention.)The whole "who needs physical books, digital copies are all we need" bullshit meme seems to go hand in hand with the stealth barbarism. But there's a very sound reason why paper copies are superior in a critical way, that overrides all other considerations - You can't expunge/corrupt/rewrite them.Either by accident ( seehttp://everist.org/NobLog/20131122_an_actual_knob.htm#jbig2re JBIG2 faulty compression ), or deliberately - say hypothetically some group were intent on obliterating the technological heritage of Western Civilization.QuoteI would bet money that isn't happening. (Ha ha, if I had any. But then, I'm certain I'd win the bet, so...)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:34:10 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 16, 2015, 03:11:39 amThanks.Yep Google search found them and I've also updated Ebaman's link I posted in the Repair board.http://www.ebaman.com/index.php/remositoryhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/repair-documents-and-links-sticky-me-please-mods/msg478324/#msg478324

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 07:47:35 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 16, 2015, 03:29:03 am

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 07:51:30 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 16, 2015, 01:47:41 amYes. I think I bought a couple of manuals from them in the past. You can argue all you want but running a business requires paying customers. Paying customers requires offering a service which customers would pay money for. Going out of business means there are not enough paying customers which in turn means the service provided is no longer wanted.There are just too many repositories with free manuals & websites with repair tips nowadays; you just can't make a living from only the rare manuals. Service manuals started dissapearing from the early 90's so most equipment for which a service manual could exist is at least 20 years old. Such equipment is beyond economical repair so the people who do fix such equipment are hobbyists without much money to spend.IIRC the manuals I bought from Manualsplus where in the $50 to $75 range excluding shipping costs (before the clearance). Shipping a binder with few kg of dead tree across the ocean isn't cheap. I also agree with the other person about not being able to browse through their collection. That made Manualsplus invisible to Google. If they addressed that earlier they could probably have survived an extra couple of years.

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 12:15:07 pm
content: I've been a customer of HCSD in Cooma (AU) for a long time. I remember hiring printed manuals.... but I haven't hired a printed manual now for years! I ring up, order my manual and a minute or so later I have a download link. I print the pages I need, and I keep the .pdf copy. No postage, no time waiting, etc. He can't be making huge dollars out of the enterprise now, since he doesn't charge GST. Should a company keep massive premises and such just because someone might need an old manual in 20years time? Surely it's better to have the information available still, even if it's not an original copy.Having said that, throwing away old stuff is very sad, and it should be archived in a climate-controlled facility. But how's it paid for? Would have to be paid for by the taxpayer! Future generations would thank us.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 12:41:06 pm
content: I recall a bookseller of secondhand books, the guy who was doing it said he just set it up in the middle of nowhere, in a place where land and labor was cheap, then cataloged and advertised and indexed everything online. He really didn't bother to try with low prices to attract anyone, just figured to simply wait until eventually such and such a book was wanted by someone. It was just a snails pace strategy, keeping cost low.All the places I've seen that collect information for free don't allow it to be copied in bulk, they sit on it to make money out of it. archive.org, wikipedia, JSTOR, you name it, you can't download it. Saving manuals to be free is just an idea, and I can't see it becoming real. It's a dream city somewhere over the rainbow where you can visit a library where all the old library books go to make room for the new ones, and you can read forever. It's a dream.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 12:42:15 pm
content: I'm only a couple of hours from Maryland. I've got access to a 42' flatbed and copious amounts of climate controlled storage. I'd be glad to take all the manuals off their hands (and scan them as a long term project).Sent from my Tablet

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 01:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: timb on August 16, 2015, 12:42:15 pmI think you should talk to Jason Scott directly via email - "jason at textfiles dot com" is what he mentions in the link. Those sound like the exact type of resources he's in need of. (I doubt you'll get to keep anything but the duplicates though.)Quotearchive.org? Jason Scott works there and they certainlydoallow downloading...here's a random download link I used a few weeks ago

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 02:18:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 16, 2015, 07:51:30 amYou keep assuming they are 'going out of business due to lack of sales'. That's not the case at all. The article states it's due to loss of the lease, and not being able to justify the cost of relocating. I know from conversations with Becky (the sole staff) that she was always working non-stop.And I'm not sure about that lease stuff. So far I can't find the emails, but I'm pretty sure she said it was just the owner deciding to shut down. A decision made in Dec 2014 or earlier. Then the failure to advertise over the last 8 months to see if they could get any takers for the entire collection, so now they would dumptser them, that's barely believable.QuoteYes, I agree the website was bad. More incompetence from the owner. But again, it wasn't 'lack of business' according to them. It was loss of the lease.Quote from: timb on August 16, 2015, 12:42:15 pmWell, here are their contact details again.Manuals Plus.2002 Bethel Rd, Suite 105 Finksberg, MD.Phone 410-871-1555. Fax 410-871-1255em: sales@manualsplus.comweb:www.manualsplus.comGoogle maps:https://www.google.com/maps/place/2002+Bethel+Rd+%23105,+Finksburg,+MD+21048/@39.5426145,-76.9270742,17z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c838cf2bd77577:0x73f10597464e914aPlease phone them. Now. Also contact Jason Scott and work out some cooperation with him. Main thing would be to stop them dumping manuals off the shelves till you have time to work out how to move them while maintaining sort order. Also they will have an index and ordering system on computer - you'll need that too.See if you can find out who the building owner is, and talk to them. Are they _really_ terminating the lease? Maybe that story is true, maybe it isn't. Would be good to know for sure.As opposed to, say Tektronix or Agilent/Siglint or whatever they call themselves now, passing someone a few thousand bucks to eliminate a library of manuals, thinking they might sell a few more new instruments if manuals for older gear are unavailable. Just a thought.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 06:21:30 pm
content: I know nothing about the ins and outs of why they are closing. I have been an occasional customer over the years but postage to the UK isn't cheap. I heard about the closure and hopefully in the next week or so will arrive boxes 5 and 6 of the sale manuals. I think I might now have spent more on postage than manuals with the discount on these last boxes. Thanks Becky.As has been pointed out, to keep in business then they have to sell manuals. As with any secondhand item 5% of the items account for 95% of the sales or enquiries, think ASICs from Tek 2465 scopes, who wants the CPU board, or the bit of bent metal that holds the widget on? Who fixes things now? Look at the various threads, buy a Rigol and stuff anything more than 5 years old? My manuals were mostly boring, Tek 7000 stuff and similar, but ManualsPlus had originals, and I an tired of rubbish copies and it was worth the cost to buy and ship them across the pond.This is a very common occurance now in my experience, no one is interested in older things, generally, it is all apparently on the internet. I had a nice collection of electromechanical computers, mostly navigation equipment from aircraft, inertial gyros, air data computers, ground position indicators and similar. When I had to downsize it went for auction, would have got more at a scrap yard. Similarly old books, 3rd edition Britannica, a Pantologia, runs of the AJS and similar, these are now valued just for the plates they contain, maps are best, the plate of yet another bridge is used to light the fire. It has taken me years to to actually accept that the things I spent so much time and money on acquiring are now worthless. I have ST412 working disc drives, no interest, scrapped, similarly with much other computer stuff. No one now has the space to store this stuff, and museums don't seem interested either.I am pleased that I bought the manuals I did from MP, and they will be used and appreciated. But they will also go for recycling when I die, what is a 7T11? In the end I had a choice, pay MP for the manuals and postage, or keep that money in my savings account. All the others who complain about the manuals being dumped perhaps should have put some money where their mouth is, and bought a couple of thousand $ worth when they could. I did.

author: NickAmes
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 07:26:53 pm
content: Jason has published an update:http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4695

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 02:15:55 am
content: Quote from: woodchips on August 16, 2015, 06:21:30 pmI've been a long term customer too. Also bought what I could afford after hearing of the shutdown. But it wasn't anything like what I wanted to buy. I'm poor atm, though that won't last forever.QuoteMy view is that at least some people should keep test gear that is repairable, as opposed to contemporary gear which isn't. As a 'just in case' precaution, for potential economic and therefore technological regression scenarios.Also as a collector of old gear partly for the historical interest, it seems stupid to have the gear, but not the original manual, which is part of the aesthetic. And in addition, I find electronic copies pathetic and nearly unusable in a practical sense, even if the quality is good. Which it so frequently isn't. Nothing beats having the stack of paper large foldout schematics.QuoteYes, and do you know the history of fads and manias? Who can be sure the Internet is going to last forever in its current form? It's only been around what, 20 years so far. This is not sufficient basis to predict eternal availability.Are you aware of moves by the fascists in the US government, to legislate 'sharing of technical information on the net' into a 'terrorist crime'? Seriously... Unbelievable, but it fits with those arseholes' mentalities.QuoteTragic. Did you offer it via places like this and the vintage computing forums? Or was that before you knew of them?QuoteYou're making a big mistake. The same made by many people, which results in relics being so very rare after a few decades. You're allowing yourself to be conditioned by the prevailing view that monetary value of the moment, is equivalent to moral worth. This is a falsehood. You should decide what value is, within your own moral code. F*ck opinions of others to the contrary.QuoteSob. More tragedy. I'd have taken all that stuff. Incidentally, this 'no one has the space' is not just by accident, it's the result of deliberate social manipulation, intended to disempower the majority of the population. A deliberate side effect of the way the economic system is structured at the moment.QuoteHow soon will that be do you think? Any chance you could put me down in your will, to take whatever techno-relics you still have? I'm totally serious, please PM me if you'll consider it. I'm 60 now, will be around a while yet. Seehttp://everist.org/NobLog/I have a lot of Tek 7000 series stuff, but mostly not yet recommissioned due to the sequencing of getting my workshop set up.QuoteSo did I, but it wasn't anywhere near that much. The timing is what bugs me. In the next year or so, I'll likely be forced to sell my current large property due to a zoning change. (http://everist.org/no-rezone/hmmm... needs an update.) I expect to end up with more than enough to rebuild in the country somewhere, including a *much bigger* workshop, and live comfortably. One of the items on my 'new workspace' requirements list, is a _large_ library space. Medium scale library. I wish MP had waited to shut down till that was set up.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 06:30:11 am
content: Quote from: amyk on August 16, 2015, 01:20:59 pmcan you send them 300tb of hard drives and a cheque ? not for any of them.

author: Leiothrix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 11:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: TheElectricChicken on August 17, 2015, 06:30:11 amEnglish wikipedia download link:https://dumps.wikimedia.org/enwiki/20150805/Around 12GB, totally free (well, CC-BY-SA, but no $$). Admittedly this does not contain other media, but you can get those too with a bit of mucking around (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download#Where_are_the_uploaded_files_.28image.2C_audio.2C_video.2C_etc..2C_files.29.3F)

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 01:14:25 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 16, 2015, 03:29:03 amQuoteYou guys need to watch what you say. Becky is aware of this thread and had been following it.As for duplicate sorting, according to Becky, Jason and others have been hard at work.I've personally spent over $1000 on manuals from them this year alone, but that only goes so far towards their USD $10,000 a month building lease.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 04:44:57 am
content: Jason posted some photos today:https://twitter.com/textfiles/with_replies

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 05:10:02 am
content: Quote from: edavid on August 18, 2015, 04:44:57 amIn Realtime: We are barely halfway done

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 05:59:49 am
content: That's a pretty good effort, but why do they seem to be leisurely reading through the manuals...? I was expecting more "grab and go", with people pulling armfuls of them out at a time and stuffing them into boxes, since the priority here seems to be to get them out of the place ASAP. All the sorting, duplicate culling, etc. can come later,afterthey've been moved out...

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 06:12:54 am
content: Quote from: amyk on August 18, 2015, 05:59:49 amMy guess would be that they are checking the document id and/or revision numbers (and maybe posing for the camera). The reason they were trying to pull just one copy of each was the sheer volume of material, however I don't think this is a good idea when done in a rush and on a deadline because there is a lot of potential for accidentally leaving behind documents.I'm not sure from that last post by Jason if they've decided to take additional copies of material or not, but given the massive amount of work just packing this stuff is, they definitely need all the help they can get.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 06:47:21 am
content: Quote from: Leiothrix on August 17, 2015, 11:25:23 pmAround 12GB, totally free (well, CC-BY-SA, but no $$). Admittedly this does not contain other media, but you can get those too with a bit of mucking around (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download#Where_are_the_uploaded_files_.28image.2C_audio.2C_video.2C_etc..2C_files.29.3F)actually you can't. You can't send hard drives and get the dataset of images and video to run through your latest AI project at UNI or what-have-you. The text is tiny, 12GB would probably only be the current state of the project, which is not worth looking at really. They continue to bloat their media collecting with something called GLAM or some such, basically photographing library and gallery collections and then putting it into their own un-indexed, un-browsable, un-downloadable hole in the ground from which there is no return. Someone who was doing some thesis was offering $500 per terabyte or something crazy to download the images from wikipedia, I doubt it can be done. You know, without a closet to hide the laptop in and the FBI trying to kill you like Aaron Schwartz.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 07:37:05 am
content: Quote from: Tothwolf on August 18, 2015, 01:14:25 amHi Becky! (Guy D from Sydney here.)I still bet 'duplicate culling' (not sorting, they are ALREADY sorted) isn't happening in any adequate sense. Revision and serial number comparison is *hard* and there's no way it could be done for that archive in the time available. Especially not while also maintaining overall sort order and catalog to shelf grid references.Also even if it was, it's still a tragedy, since the purpose of the the 'save & move' would ideally be to keep the manuals in this collection available for future purchasers. Which I don't expect will be possible, and that makes me feel ill. Both on principle and because it makes my future equipment life harder. It's like watching a priceless library burn, and nothing I can do about it. Feel like I want to kill someone. Not Becky or the volunteers! Three cheers for their effort. The owner, maybe, depending on what the actual situation is. How come this got left to the last minute? Or perhaps the building owner. Or maybe a bunch of bankers, for creating a debt-riddled system in which a business like ManualsPlus can't own its own premises clear of debt, and have no overheads beyond water, power and maybe land rates.There seems to be a lot of 'save only one copy of each for scanning' attitude going on here. You can guess what I think of that. Current scanning and encoding file formats are NOT ADEQUATE! There'll be better schemes in future, but till then save all the physical copies, in as many hands as possible to prevent this kind of mass loss.But, since I can't help or influence in any way, who cares what I think.QuoteI still wish it was possible to do some checking of background details to this. Is "$10K/month" for that not particularly big space in an old subdivided factory in semi-rural area sensible? I don't know, but it does seem a bit hard to believe. Did the lease actually 'get lost'? How & why, given there's not exactly a huge swell in demand for industrial real estate in the USA these days.Who owns the building, and what's their story?I know I'll never see answers to these questions, which makes me feel even more ill about the whole thing,

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 08:18:43 pm
content: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4724

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 08:24:33 pm
content: TerraHertz, dude, instead of bitching about the manuals not being handled in the exact way you prefer, could you perhaps try just being thankful someone bothered to keep them at all? kthxbye.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 08:26:45 pm
content: I own a pulse generator, a Thurlby TG105, IF there is a scanned service manual for it then I will buy it for a reasonable price but ONLY if I am then given permission to put it online for free in case anyone else wants it.Sorry if that hurts other peoples senses but I believe that such things should be free rather than locked away like so many other things in history

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 10:06:11 pm
content: Is there anyone from this forum who "has boots on the ground"? I mean is there anyone here who is there? I have a somewhat difficult time trying to figure out what is going on and if there is someone with boots on the ground, I could concentrate on their comments.thanks

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 11:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on August 19, 2015, 10:06:11 pmHere's an article that gives the background:http://www.radioworld.com/article/manuals-plus-announces-pending-closure/275714Quote

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 01:48:23 am
content: Good News Everybody!!From the Manuals Plus website:"As many of you may have heard, Manuals Plus is closing its doors.We have made an agreement with The Internet Archive to donate our entire library to their collection. You can find information about them at (https://archive.org/about/). "Hopefully, this really means the entire library rather than whatever Jason manages to save.Ed

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 03:16:41 am
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on August 20, 2015, 01:48:23 amThey are just referring to Jason's project. He did his best to save one of everything though.

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 03:38:15 am
content: I heard from Becky this afternoon (I've been in regular contact with her) and she has said that anything left is now up for grabs. This is part of what she wrote me today:"If you know of anyone that wants to come here & help themselves over the next two days they are welcome. (Only if you weed the ones that want to meet us with 2x4's) Please have them contact me through this email. I do not particularly want them to just show up."Becky's email address is: sales -at- manualsplus.comGiven how busy she has been, I suspect email is much better than trying to reach her via phone.[...and it should go without saying, but be nice. It wasn't her decision to close down.]

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 12:49:05 pm
content: We are fools and history tends to repeat itself...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_AlexandriaDigital media will not last forever. And the world's knowledge will not necessarily be backed up. Certainly won't last as long as the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Rosetta Stone.There is data for many ASICs, because the companies that created them are no longer in existence or no longer care, or the data-books have long been thrown out and no-one backed them up on digital media.I was just damned lucky one website had the source code listing to the early Intel 4004 based calculators from the 1970's. Another example the STAC Timer chip. No chip data exists for that on the web or probably on the planet. A shame really, because I still own a STAC Timer, but there is no data for it besides dumb pin-outs.However I do have every SERVICE MANUAL to every model of AWA Fisk radio ever made. Not only the schematic, but alignment, assembly procedures and parts lists. I suspect it is the only complete collection in the world. In perfect condition and not available digitally. These are locked up off site with a secure documents company for safe keeping.Remember the great fire of Alexandria. One day in the future, the only record of our existence in the 21st century might be that of a god called Bieber.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 02:28:26 pm
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on August 20, 2015, 01:48:23 amwell, until some troll tells the IA that the manuals are copyright and It can't publish them, at which point they'll be well locked away out of reach as their own property. Kickstarter perhaps ?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:00:33 pm
content: I saw something very interesting yesterday on YouTube which has some surprising things to say about preservation...30 minute documentary, recommended: "Lost Forever: The Art of Film Preservation"https://youtu.be/3TEgrdAlofkQuote

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on August 20, 2015, 12:49:05 pmDigital media can be copied and backed up and converted between formats and storage types and etc etc etc indefinitely. The data is finallyseparatefrom the medium, as it should be. It haswaymore chance at longevity than paper.Anyone who thinks digital media can't last thinks "digital media" is a filing cabinet full of CD-Rs.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:10:58 pm
content: It sounds like the ideal format would be digital data recorded on 35mm film.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 09:04:51 pm
content: A funny notion: early digital storage media included the Williams tube, a CRT with a storage type phosphor, performing electrical readout via secondary emission. Early units handled on the order of kilobits; I believe the ultimate limit was around a megabit (sounds about right; my 1.92Mpx Trinitron CRT is a bit too fuzzy to be able to store an image as clean binary dots, so a sharper beam and lower density would be in order). A handy feature of this medium was, because the phosphor is both the storage medium and photoemissive, the computer's live operating memory was directly readable in person, in use! Recording a photograph or movie of this memory would be exactly akin to transferring MPEG onto film (by which I mean, retaining the digital encoding; which because it's a lossy method, is arguably an integral part of the final movie product itself, and so should also be preserved).On a related note, I wonder about the failure mechanisms between film and tape. Consider:Film is an emulsion of pigment particles, usually silver metal (B&W) or organic dyes (color), coated onto or embedded in a plastic carrier. Magnetic tape is a coating of pigment particles, usually a hard magnetic compound based on iron, bonded to a plastic carrier.Magnetism itself can be quite enduring (paleomagnetism), and there need be no reason why organic dyes should last any better.I'm sure it mainly comes down to a production matter, as usual; it's difficult and expensive to produce very pure, very robust media, so who would ever buy the stuff? The low demand compounds itself by causing high prices.Tim

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 11:05:05 am
content: Quote from: TheElectricChicken on August 20, 2015, 02:28:26 pmI'm pretty sure the copyright act allows copying of full publications if a copy is not available from the publisher in a reasonable time.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:10:16 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on August 20, 2015, 12:49:05 pmFallacious reasoning. You are pointing to two things that were preserved as much by accident as design. Yes, the rosetta stone was probably intended to be a durable artifact, but its significance today is that 1) it escaped being lost or destroyed (perhaps by someone who wanted to re-use the stone for another message), 2) it managed to be found 3) it said the same thing in three different scripts/languages, and provided a bridge to understanding Egyptian hieroglyphics.Similarly, there was surely some intent of durability in the creation of the dead sea scrolls, but the fact that we know about them today depends on may external factors. Continued dry climate, long term success of abrahmic religions, escaping looting or reuse of the materials, etc.Ultimately, the medium matters, but so too does the sheer number of copies. Digital storage makes the latter practical for a huge amount of information. I'll tell you, though, the people who actually feel responsibility for preserving the worlds knowledge includes a significant number of people who aren't content to trust a single strategy for preservation. Even for digital storage, there are people who work to ensure long term robustness through multiple strategies.QuoteGreat that you have your own project. Obviously though, physical copies at a facility dedicated to preservation of physical copies is pretty much exactly what the Library of Alexandria was. Moreover, by forgoing digital versions, you are both missing an opportunity to ensure the information is available and useful in the future, and sacrificing its present day utility, which, I'll suggest, decreases the future likelihood that anyone will care that the information has been preserved.Generally, I'd say that any "portfolio" that includes significant investments in planning for the "end of the world," should have much larger investments in avoiding the "end of the world." Ironically, people who prepare for the "end of the world" by coming together with other people who are preparing for the "end of the world," are actually cultivating resilience that makes the end of the world less likely/more distant, while those who hole-up and isolate themselves are helping make the "end of the world" more likely, but even then, they are making a suckers bet.Quote from: wagon on August 23, 2015, 11:05:05 amIn the US, at least, there are insufficient provisions for abandoned or orphan works. Moreover, the terms of copyright are so absurdly long due to the lobbying efforts of Disney that I suspect that most test equipment manuals are, unequivocally, still covered by copyright.People are free to try to keep stuff out of the hands of the internet archive because of ill-informed paranoia (or well informed reasoning), but I'll point out that the Internet Archive is actually one of the places that has enough information to make well-informed decisions about this stuff. Also supporting them is an example of how coming together builds resilience. It increases their base of support, and their leverage in negotiating with copyright holders. They've clearly already managed to make a significant amount of information publicly available, including a lot oftechnical docsAs I see it, the thing about digital preservation is that it is cheap enough that its practical to preserve things that would be very difficult to make a case for physically preserving. The manuals-plus collection is a perfect example of that. The owners could no longer make an economic justification for preserving it. Perhaps, given enough time and effort, someone could have been found who would be willing to preserve it as physical media, but the cost commitment over decades would be high enough that it would have to be weighed against other priorities, and making that decision would have involved its own non-trivial costs.On the other hand, the case for digital preservation is such that one person with a foot in the world of digital archives was able to put together and execute a plan in a short amount of time that has delivered the short term physical preservation of most of the archive, and the likelihood that most of it will be archived digitally and made widely available, while also leaving the possibility open that some of it could also be preserved as physical media. There is a large up-front cost to digitizing the collection, but: 1) That cost has immediate benefits in making the collection more accessible/useful 2) The long term cost is tiny compared to the cost of physical storage. 3) The trend is for digital storage and distribution to get even cheaper, while physical storage and distribution will grow.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:30:17 pm
content: Quote from: eas on August 28, 2015, 08:10:16 pmIn the case of test equipment manuals. the existing public archives have mostly been left alone by copyright holders. I guess it's possible that the involvement of the high-visibility Internet Archive would change that.I think scanning a zillion manuals before the storage money runs out is a much bigger challenge than copyright though. I don't know if IA scanning people have really tangled with foldouts before.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on August 28, 2015, 08:30:17 pmThe holder of the copyright to the various Heathkit manuals certainly hasn't left the public archives alone! Many of the B&K manuals also seem to be unobtainium.I've also noticed that a lot of old books that used to be on Google Books are no longer available. Just yesterday I tried to find a copy of 'A Standard History of Ross County, Ohio' written in 1917 IIRC and it's no longer posted. Another book that recall in particular was written in 1794 but somebody has stopped Google from making it available and the URL that I BookMarked no longer valid."I think scanning a zillion manuals before the storage money runs out is a much bigger challenge than copyright though. I don't know if IA scanning people have really tangled with foldouts before."Yes, trying to find a GOOD scanned of fold out schematics has been a big problem. Yes, they made digital copies the manual but often the quality left a lot to be desired!

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 10:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 09, 2015, 08:48:15 pmMost people think that copyright has lapsed on Heathkit manuals. There are plenty of sites that host them.QuoteHas B+K ever threatened an archive site?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 02:00:59 am
content: The Internet Archive has scanned plenty of other, more popular, and newer, copyrighted material. I think they've fought many other copyright trolls before.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 03:43:48 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 20, 2015, 06:08:09 pmAnd how about using a collective storage medium? Think about peer-to-peer networks. Music you won't find in any (online) shop can still be obtained from peer-to-peer networks.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2015, 03:53:48 am
content: An audio interview with Jason Scott about the rescue of manuals.http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/why-i-spent-my-summer-rescuing-thousands-of-vintage-manuals-1.3222642Ed

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2015, 11:22:58 pm
content: The reason to digitize plain-text media is to make working copies and make the copies available widely.That is not the same as archiving.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 10:56:54 pm
content: Sorry for the necroposting, but I picked up today two excellent quality manuals from another company (Tucker Electronics, also available at eBay as teoutlet) and the owner Jim said they will not be around for long anymore due to personal reasons. It is sad to see his huge collection go to the dustbin, so hopefully someone knows someone that could salvage them...

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 11:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 08, 2017, 10:56:54 pmThe last time I talked to him, he was holding out for $10/manual, so salvage wasn't really an option. Did he change his mind about that?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 11:28:58 pm
content: The best way to store data, including files like PDFs (as blobs) to assure longevity, is a ACID compliant SQL database with replication.This is not difficult to set up, as DBs like PostgreSQL include replication and are free. You can add additional machines that are in different parts of the world. The price of bandwidth also is going down and is approaching zero.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 12:03:48 am
content: Quote from: edavid on December 08, 2017, 11:07:43 pmAs I don't have the means to pursue this myself, I didn't discuss this with him.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 01:48:11 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 08, 2017, 10:56:54 pmAsk Jason Scott, the same guy who rescued the manuals discussed previously in this thread.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 06:33:48 am
content: Oh no, not teoutlet too.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 06:59:48 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on December 09, 2017, 06:33:48 amI just got another manual from teoutlet.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 04:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on December 10, 2017, 06:59:48 amBack in May, he said he was going to close in June

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 08:06:34 am
content: He's been selling manuals on evilBay, but I haven't been able to get to the direct website recently, so I'm thinking things may be wrapping up there.That stinks, as he was a good source for paper manuals, and I've gotten quite a few from him.-Pat

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2017, 04:47:13 pm
content: I bought one very hard to find manual from teoutlet, basically perfect condition paper copy with big fold-out schematics. The downloadable one from the manufacturer had the schematics redacted. I was very pleased with the purchase, and I'd do it again if needed, but most often there is something usable out there for download. I guess that's why these manual dealers are not viable today. Sad.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 01:17:59 am
content: Quote from: Deathwish on August 16, 2015, 02:18:10 amNo matter what you do, some freeloader will try to find a way to profit from it. I try not to worry about it, I'll provide stuff like that for free any time I can, if someone else tries to sell it that doesn't take anything away from me nor does it negate the help I've done for others by providing it.