My very first oscilloscope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: DoorVb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 10:23:01 pm
content: Greetings,Today I was browsing for an oscilloscope on a local site like e-bay. I came across this oscilloscope(https://www.2dehands.be/elektronische-apparatuur/overig-apparatuur/elektronica-meetapparatuur/oscilloscoop-355933802.html).It's a BK Precision, type 1535A. It costs 75 euros. Is it any good? Are there things i need to watch out for with an old (analog) oscilloscope?Anyway, a picture is in the attachments.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 10:40:45 pm
content: You can probably get better than that for €75. Look out for Philips Pm3317/3267 models there in Belgium. Lots of them available across Europe, easy to repair (no odd parts) and good performance. If you're lucky you might even pick up a Tektronix 100MHz unit for that.As for things to watch out for, if you buy an old analog oscilloscope you'll need two as it will break down and you will have to fix it at some point and this tends to need another one. This turns into a journey in itself which has good educational value though so it's not a bad thing.One thing to watch out for is that if it's not shown powered up with any trace at all then the seller doesn't know how to use it and therefore can't tell you it's working or not and/or its broken.

author: DoorVb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 10:43:55 pm
content: Thanks for the informationI kept looking a bit and found a Philips PM3209 for 50 euros? Is it better?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 10:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 15, 2017, 10:40:45 pmExactly.Adding: If you're buying a CRO ensure the service manual is available.........at some stage you *will* need it.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 10:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: DoorVb on August 15, 2017, 10:43:55 pmIf it's working then yes, it's a dual channel scope which is significantly more useful than a single channel. It also has slightly higher bandwidth (40MHz vs 35MHz).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 11:00:47 pm
content: Still a bit expensive. Usual rule is €1/£1 per MHz for a working unit. Max €10/£10 for a dead or untested one is what I use as a gauge. Mikerj is spot on with two channels.You really want:1. 50MHz or more bandwidth2. Delay sweep (this is like a time zoom and span system)3. Two channels4. Major brand5. Available service manual6. Shown working with a trace7. Not bashed around8. All controls intact on front panel.If you hang around and wait on local sites and stalk eBay you can get some good bargains. I think I paid €15/£10 for my last analogue scope.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 11:01:44 pm
content: Good advice here today, as usualIt looks very similar/same? to the Trio-Kenwoods with a nice easy layout, all the functions and knobs at your fingertipsIf everything is CONFIRMED WORKING it's a no brainer at a reasonable price.Buying a cheap dud and having to repair it is unpaid work, zap risks and guaranteed newb dramaIf the dials and switches are a bit stiff or noisy, working them a bit when the unit is switched off usually gets them going againThe trace should be bright and SHARP when adjusted accordingly.I still use these because they are quick to set up and in your face for most stuff,whereas the digital snail scopes I use just for fancy capture workYou can't go wrong with a good analogue scope, and get a digital one later on.. if you need it

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 07:09:28 am
content: I would recommend HAMEG oscilloscopes with usefull component tester.My prefered model is the HM605.Look on ebay.de....you will find them sometimes for cheap...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 07:14:16 am
content: Definitely agree with Hameg as well. Nice scopes.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 09:06:34 pm
content: Third vote for Hameg, I have a Tektronix, a Kikusui and a Hameg, the Hameg is the one I go for every time.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 07:13:04 am
content: In the analog days I used to specify the Hitachi V-series. They were aimed at video work but were good all-round instruments, and I've never seen one fail. As you might expect from Hitachi, internal construction was first class. The V-422 is good enough for most work, but if you can find a top-end model with delay sweep and/or digital storage, it's a winner.http://www.usedoscilloscope.orgis handy for comparisons.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 08:12:23 am
content: QuoteIt's a looserExactly what you should NEVER BUY- too complicated to use- if there is a fault, you will never succeed to repair it- No spare parts.If you buy an analog oscilloscope, buy a very simple one !

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 08:23:46 am
content: Yeah got to agree there. Delay sweep is about as complicated as you should go with an analogue.This is what you end up with on older DSOs - fancy repairing this as a beginner? Was hard enough with 30 years' experience:

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 08:32:10 am
content: +1Digital *anything* built in to a CRO is trouble waiting to happen.IMHO the minimum requirements for a CRO you plan to keep are:* In good working order, with a service manual available and no 'unobtanium' model specific hybrid modules or ICs.* 2 channels with a choice of chop or alt modes* At least 50 MHz Y bandwidth* Delay timebaseNice to have is trigger view - effectively a third trace if you use the ext trigger input. Usually there's not a lot of choice of input attenuator settings for it, but its good enough to let you get three digital signals on screen simultaneously which is very helpful if you are debugging SPI interfaces and need to see the clock, data and chip select all togetherIts also helpful if the delay timebase supports a dual view mode where it can display the delay timebase trace and the expanded trace at the same time, with an adjustable vertical offset between them.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 09:36:23 am
content: Good to see I'm not alone here in recommending a fully working analogue scopewith no digital frills to die on you and render a good CRT uselessYou can always buy a current cheapie DSO later, rather than an old 'all in one' digital/analogue hybrid that can go belly up any day,with no one locally willing or capable to fix it , much less get parts or service infoWhen my hybrids go south and no easy fix, they get sold as 'not working or for parts'I don't mind OPs scope above, if all the functions work, it's a winner

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 03:51:10 pm
content: My primary considerations would be a service manual, ease of repair, and availability of spare parts.When I was oscilloscope hunting, I made records for a couple months of which models were selling and for how much. Then I went back and looked for which were the most common indicating a good supply of spare parts.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 10:57:00 pm
content: My method was quick n dirty and bought whatever was working 100% and get on with using it,and if/when something else better came along, I would sell off the first one and recuperate funds easily,because I could demo it working to next buyer, who usually just got burned previously with a dud scopeThen again, why sell the goodie when two scopes can be better than one,three can be handy too...some of you may be familiar with that inner voice heads up deal

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 03:36:20 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on August 17, 2017, 10:57:00 pmThe first DSO that I bought for my own use a couple years ago was a Tektronix 2230 and I did so figuring I could buy two and combine them for one working oscilloscope. As it ended up, only one had a problem and I managed to fix it.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 05:34:02 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 17, 2017, 08:23:46 amThose are totally doable for a newbie who is just learning what a transistor is and which parts not to touch when plugged in and trouble shooting.So I wanted to buy one of these but I always get stuck on how much band width I need. The rating is how high the scope will detect that my circuit will put out? Not sampling rate or complexity of how I can zoom into the wave? So if I'm repairing old radios and need to see 108mhz or 455mhz the scope has to go up to that right? Do analog scopes go that high? I always see analog scopes on those youtube channels where they repair old radios and even police radios that are 400-500 mhz. I have been fascinated with RF since I was a kid and have the problem where I'm not sure if the circuit is oscillating. It would be nice to wrap a wire around a scope probe and see the signal. Basically right now I would just use the scope to see if the thing was working not so much feeding in markers or doing anything too complex. Or should I just shoot for a digital scope?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 06:56:48 am
content: Typically you don't use a CRO for RF work. Although there's enough bandwidth on a good scope to handle carrier signals up to the shortwave band, the timebase usually isn't fast enough to get a good look at the waveform and triggering meaningfully and stably on a modulated carrier is *DIFFICULT*.Checking for oscillation is a simple as using a capacitively coupled RF detecting probe + a multimeter with a mV or uA range.http://www.qsl.net/g3oou/simplerfdetectors.html

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 07:25:01 am
content: Yep. I've been doing RF stuff with a 50MHz analogue scope, an RF diode probe, a DMM and a frequency counter. I'm good to 150MHz with that. I recently bought a digital scope but mainly because I had some cash to burn and it comes with some conveniences and smoke keeps coming out of the analogue scope, not because I needed it.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 08:50:55 am
content: Here is a good oscilloscope for the beginner: the Hameg 412.It is simple to use, simple to repair, robust, easy to find (see ebay.de), cheap, components are easy to buy, documentation is available on the Internet, printed circuit boards are easily accessible, ... .Its only shortcoming : it has no component tester.There are several versions, give preference to recent versions. (HM412-5 for exemple)It was also manufactured in 1 channel version, choose the 2 channels.Only buy an oscilloscope in perfect working order.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 09:30:38 am
content: Well, I wasn't suggesting the V1100 for a first scope. They still go for quite high prices. The 422 or a 212 is easy to use and very dependable.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 11:39:26 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on August 18, 2017, 09:30:38 amI wouldn't knock it back as a newb if it was in good shape and no repairs to think aboutThere are worse ways to spend a weekend working out and documenting ALL the functions the V1100 puppy performsBesides, I could always sell it if any'too much scope for me'symptoms appeared(NOT)

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2017, 09:10:03 am
content: The cost of transport often exceeds that of the oscilloscopeMoreover, an oscilloscope is fragile, it is not advisable to transport it.So it's better to look for an oscilloscope from a local vendor.Choice is not that large......Look at :https://www.2dehands.be/elektronische-apparatuur/overig-apparatuur/elektronica-meetapparatuur/