Welcome back Win7  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 08:41:25 am
content: After 'struggling' with Win 10 on a machine for a few months (I need to know about it for work) I've finally given up and activated the recovery partition to reinstall Windows 7.The final straw was spending an hour and failing to get an RTL SDR dongle to work.After Win7 'dies' I will be running Linux and maybe maintaining a legacy Windows box to support old software so, other than the Ubuntu distributions, which Linux desktop distro would you recommend and why?

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:28:32 am
content: distro choice depends on your skills.if your not a master, Mageia is very good.if your a master & need the very latest packages then use Debian.(debian lacks a lot of graphic configuration tools, you have to edit the config files from a terminal)i run both btw.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:17:29 am
content: for desktop definitely ubuntu - provides the best user experience for the "average joe" - everything is prepared and works out of the box.for servers my personal preference is debian stable, second would be centos

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:36:45 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 09:08:47 am

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:02:49 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 09:08:47 amplease show me...so my requirements.. cheap plastic case laptop with windows OS running - just enough to get the job done. it will be used in a environment where it will be constantly "beaten" so not expecting a lifetime longer than 12-18 months. i can have such a windows based laptop for approx 350-450 Euro. please come up with your cheaper (money wise) alternative from the half-eaten fruit

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:12:54 am
content: I tried Win10 for 2 weeks, cannot bear it then and change back to Win7.It's just a unfinished rubbish with "funny" UI, tons of bugs and spyware.I'm still using windows server 2003 and Posready 2009 on some machine, no problems.If win7 ends life, I may continue using it, just with a good AV you'll be fine.For Linux, I recommend CentOS, it's very stable and flexible, and use low resources. But for beginners, the most common ones such as Ubuntu or Debian maybe better, because they have much bigger forum and more packages.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:14:35 am
content: Yea, I happy with win 7 as well. Actually Win NT 4.0 was the most stable OS I've ever used. Had a few of them running Avid editing rigs that would often run over night rendering, and then never get rebooted in the morning, or the next, or the next. Heck a week would go by and it was still rock solid. Windows 7 is almost as good, but drivers seem to fail more then the OS does....Anyways.I often fine the OS debate funny, cause no one ever paid anyone for a job just cause the OS they are running. It's what you get done with the end software that is key. Most software these days are function-to-function identical across platforms.Quote from: rob77 on October 14, 2016, 10:17:29 amIt *almost* works for the average Joe. But the second you have to sodo anything, that all goes to crap. I love the idea of something like ubuntu, that I can just install or side boot to and get work done, but it never works out that way.If the ubuntu folks (and alike) really wanted to challenge MS and Apple, they could. But that would mean giving up the command line - and they won't ever do that. It's written by nerds, for nerds. And giving up sudo would mean they aren't nerds anymore....or something. I honestly don't know what their deal is, but for some reason, want to hang on to somethings just to keep it an exclusive club. My 2 cents.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:23:35 am
content: The easiest I've used is Linux Mint/Cinnamon. The only bad thing is that snot green color that is everywhere. They made the colors easier to change in 18, but that version has been unstable for me. I continue to use 17.Cannonical smells to me like the Microsoft of the Linux world, so I avoid them.I have Debian on one machine and overall I like it the best. It's not quite as easy to use as Mint.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:50:44 am
content: Quote from: george graves on October 14, 2016, 11:14:35 amWhen you're expected to support users who are using Win 10 though it's beneficial to know how the OS works which is why Win 10 happened, I pity anyone who has to use it for anything serious.Other than that, I totally agree, I can program (badly), I can remote into servers and remote desktops and many many other tasks from any other OS so I can be fairly flexible with my OS choice.It won't hurt to keep my Win skills up to date so it'll need to dual boot, Ubuntu is a current Linux favourite as log as I can still rerrange the close, minimise and maximise buttons to a sensible place.As for Macs, yes, very pretty, lovely OS.Hardly cheap though when you consider the enforced obsolescence of the platform.Might buy some if I win the lottery.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 11:50:52 amthanksi was just curious how severely infected you arearen't you a apple sales man ?

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:20:18 pm
content: On the "Macs are bettar!" bandwagon: If you're notincompetent, a PC will work reliably and without issue. There is no "30 minutes of updates in the morning" or any of the other issues you find so dreadful. It just Works (tm). Sure, if you're a complete moron and click on anything that moves, you will have issues.As for the "free software, yay!": Libre Office is free, you can get the community edition (or whatever it is) of Visual Studio for free, MSE antivirus is free (and Iarguablydon't need AV; in the 5+ years I've run my current computer, I haven't had a single virus scare). Etc. As for video/audio editing, I wouldn't know because it doesn't interest me.Also, the top-of-the-line Mac Pro is $4000. Just for the dustbin. My $2500 desktop - most of which is close to 5 years old - is faster in most tasks (andsubstantiallyfaster in some on account of having some proper GPU horsepower), likely quieter, and doesn't end up being used as an ashtray by accident.On the topic: Yes, Win10 is completely horrid. I'm in the same position; I'll run Win7 until it's no longer workable, then switch to Linux for everyday tasks. I might end up running ESXi on the bare metal, with a Linux VM for most tasks + a Win10 (or whatever it'll be by then) VM side by side for gaming.I just wish MS would stop actively working to make every single product they have worse. But hey, manglement happens.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:32:06 pm
content: Totally did not want this thread to turn into a fanboi flame fest but I will not be going for a Mac now or any time in the future and suffer none of the supposed windows hangups you list and could refute most if not all of your claims about backup, cost of software etc. and still prove a new PC is cheaper than a comaprable Mac, I've been around the PC/Mac game for a shade under 30 years and have seen all the arguments, Macs are excellent if you have some rather specific needs, other than that, they're expensive eye candy and, if you really want to play, I'll dig out the antivirus disks I have kicking around that were for the Quadra machines one of our local TV stations had back in the 80's.Just because nobody talks about Mac exploits doesn't mean there aren't any.My Wintel environment with Win 7 suits my needs for now and the foreseeable future, at some point I will migrate to Linux and to that end I'm prepping a machine for a Linux install tomorrow.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:41:46 pm
content: I have 3 2010 vintage HP Z210 SFF workstations here at the house. 2 are test computers for repairing company equipment and 1 is my personal computer-8 gig of ram, dual core processor Win10 64 bit and the computer basically runs 24/7 with no issues. Maybe I am a doofus, but I like Win10 and also run it on my Dell I5 laptop of about the same vintage with no issues. My 'inferior to MAC' Windows machines do what I need them to do when I need them to do it. At my age, I don't have the patience to learn another OS, though someday, when the company test computers reach EOL, I might try Linux on one of them, we will see. They will probably be around 9 years old by then, 4 years past death as some would state but will be more than adequate for Linux learning. By the way, I don't like Kool-Aide.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 11:50:52 amBrilliant. I hope you have nothing against me using your way of argumentation as a template to explain to the next guy that in reality a Ferrari 488 is cheaper than a Fiat Punto. (Not that i want to compare Macs with Ferrari and PCs with Fiat, but hey, if you like then feel inspired by my comment...)Oh by the way, i still use a Acer TravelMate 8006LMi from the year 2004. I guess it secretly is a Mac, otherwise it would not have lasted that long, right?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 01:23:55 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 14, 2016, 12:56:43 pmProbably should have, I didn't expect the Mac contingent to show up as I thought I'd been explicit enough that Windows/Linux were my options.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 01:26:03 pm
content: I'm not convinced that Windows 7 will ever "die". The recent changes Microsoft made to the update system has me wondering if their ultimate goal may be selling update subscriptions beyond the point in time when extended support ends.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 01:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 14, 2016, 12:02:36 pmYou're as curious as I was about your inability to think

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 01:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 11:50:52 amThe 4 years lifetime apply to cheap office PCs. For my data center @ home I've build EUR 500 PCs running 24x7. The last PCs I've decommissioned were 8 years old and are still fine. Selection of good hardware and some preventive maintenance helps a lot. Comparing a PC to an iMac with integrated screen isn't that simply. I doubt that the iMac will be usable after 10 years. And if the screen breaks, you can't simply go to next best shop and get a new TFT. You have to add a lot more for a TCO calculation.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 14, 2016, 01:26:03 pmIt will, in 2020 for average Joe. From what I understand, MS is creating a "windroid".

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:24:10 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 09:08:47 amI wouldn't. I've had more kernel panics and hangs requiring a power cycle on my MacOS X machines than I've had with any recent version of Windows. I haven't had a BSOD on a Windows box in nearly a decade. MacOS X, on the other hand, has been an unstable pile of crap. The last reasonably stable release was Snow Leopard.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:25:26 pm
content: Regarding anti-virus software, viruses and anti-virus software have existed for the Mac since the 1990's. Viruses on the Linux platform also exist. There are far fewer of them to be sure, but I would not go so far as to say you don't need anti-virus software.Regarding Windows 10, I am in the same boat. Win10 seems to work fine on my laptop but has been problematic on my main PC, a 4 core i7. I have been considering alternatives and have played with OSX which is a nice OS, but I wouldn't buy an iMac or MacBook Air to replace my main PC and I can't afford the Pro machines. The other alternative that has already been mentioned is Linux. I use Kali at work so I am familiar with Linux, but Kali is rather specialised. For a general purpose OS I am considering having a look at Mint. I looked at Ubuntu a while back and really hated the Unity interface, although I expect it probably works OK on a touchscreen, however I will be giving Ubuntu a miss.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:35:42 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on October 14, 2016, 01:23:55 pmI'm really really sorry for the problems that me, the Mac contingent, have created in this thread. Wont happen again

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:36:13 pm
content: same here - mint all the way. ubuntu is for those that don't know any better (oddly, two companies I work/worked for both used ubuntu and both didn't know about the spyware and crap in ubuntu).mint is ubuntu minus the crap.it also installed flawlessly on latest skylake cpus with EFI bios. surprised me, in fact. memtest86 won't run on efi systems (dammit) but linux has managed to figure it out.Quote from: rdl on October 14, 2016, 11:23:35 am

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:44:45 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 09:08:47 amArgue .. Yes. win that argument ? No .To begin : where do i put my PCI GPIB card in this fabled Mac computer ? or my PCI-express Multi-Io card ? and where am i going to find drivers for those things to run on Mac OS ?Last time i checked Mac's don't even have PCI or PCIX ports ...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 02:35:42 pmAnd i didn't mean to cause offence either, Macs are just not on my radar for too many reasons to list here but they are excellent machines, just not for me.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 03:04:19 pm
content: When I need a server or something like that, I use openSuse. For a desktop/workstation, I like Mint these days. I've tried Ubuntu multiple times. The Unity interface is just such a pile of crap. Maybe it's gotten better in a few years, but it still even just looks like a pile of crap. There's no polish. I also found Ubuntu a little difficult to work with unless all you want to do is surf the web and write letters.Mint is more like a real workstation, IMHO. Ubuntu's more like what you put on a desktop if you know absolutely nothing about computers and just want to say "I run Linux."

author: Syntax_Error
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 03:17:17 pm
content: I had to go back and read the OP again, as the topic seemed far off the title, but I guess it's still in it's lane.By Ubuntu distros do you mean to include downstream distros like Mint as well, or literally just the Ubuntu "flavors"?For desktop I use Mint 17.3 and have been keeping tabs on 18, just don't see a need to update at this point. Side note: I always find it amusing every time a new version of software comes out and in one breath they simultaneously tell you how it will be supported for over 5 years and then tell you to update from your current version (which still have 2 or more years of support left) to get the newest features. Does anybody see the irony in that?For servers I only have experience running Ubuntu server, but I would imagine Debian is extremely similar, and I would recommend checking it out. I have zero experience outside the Debian ecosystem other than trying Fedora once. Hated it, but that's just me.I don't buy into all the FOSS religion or Linux fanboyism, so to me an OS is only a few things: a platform to run my software on, a platform for learning about the OS and it's operation (Linux excels in this area for those interested), and a piece of software that controls my hardware. It must do these things well enough without hassle. Viewing Linux or any OS this way removes a lot of the cat's cradle of nonsense and crusaderism and just leaves you with an OS...Which Linux? Well, I use Mint. Why? Because it's easy to use, offers good hardware compatibility, and runs (most of) my software. Would other distros fit this bill? Absolutely, they just do it differently.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 03:41:49 pm
content: I'm still using XP. Never needed anything newer.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 04:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax_Error on October 14, 2016, 03:17:17 pmI'm looking at Mint right now, which desktop would you suggest as being familiar for a Windows user?I'm with you on the fanboi/religious aspect of OS choice, they've all got their pluses, my taste for Windows stems from my work requirements but for home use I'm happy to try most things (Mac OSX excepted as I just cannot afford the ecosystem and for a few other reasons), if it gets the job done then it's a good OS.

author: Syntax_Error
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 04:39:39 pm
content: Coming from Windows 7 through 10, I'd say the most comparable are Cinnamon Desktop and KDE Desktop, followed by (in no particular order) XFCE, LXDE, and MATE, and then as most different you have GNOME and Unity.Some considerations beyond familiarity of layout and operation are resource usage and software ecosystem. KDE Plasma can use quite a lot more memory and CPU (but nothing too bad for modern computers, we are just stratifying for the sake of it here) than other desktop environments, while the likes of XFCE and LXDE are optimized for low resource usage, and sometimes it shows. By software ecosystem, I mean the frameworks that these desktop environments run on are different. KDE uses the Qt framework, while GNOME and Cinnamon use GTK, etc. These things are mostly transparent to an end user.One very nice plus about Linux is you can choose multiple desktop environments, installing new ones and switching between them at the login screen via a dropdown. So if you want, install Mint with Cinnamon, and then later install KDE or XFCE and you will have the option for both/all at your login.I use Cinnamon, but have used KDE and XFCE in the past. MATE looks like Win95 to me, and I hate GNOME and Unity with a passion. Again, that's just me.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 05:27:38 pm
content: I have Win 10 on two machines and every single thing I have tried to do has worked. I have all kinds of external USB gadgets and every single one works. I also have Win 7 on an HP All-In-One and it has been working for several years. Again, everything I have tried to do has worked - except that it won't take the Win 10 upgrade...Multi-monitor support on my Surface Book is a treat! I really can't see the tiny font of the EEVBlog on the tablet screen (old age) so hooking in a 27" monitor is a nice feature.Linux is a whole different can of worms. I absolutely hate Ubuntu and the arrogance of the packagers in the way they unilaterally decided to move the system buttons to the left. That is just plain backwards. Sure, I can change it but why should I have to? How many ESUs (Extremely Stupid Users) are going to have to endure that nonsense because they don't want to use the command line to change configuration files?So, I have Ubuntu on a laptop and Debian on a couple of desktops. Debian is a pretty solid distro but to me it seems years behind Ubuntu in features. For command line stuff, I rather like the Bash shell added to Win 10 with the Anniversary Update. Very nice! Once I get lpr to work...Sudo is a huge problem for ESUs. First of all, they shouldn't be working at the command line nor should they have to. Second, they have to. Just adding your user account to the allowed users for the COM ports is an issue. You can't do that until you learn to add yourself to the sudo users. The system is a nightmare to set up. Windows just installs and runs. Not necessarily a good thing in terms of security but at least the user can get something done with the machine.Device drivers for Linux are years behind. Not every hardware manufacturer will provide open source drivers. In fact, very few will. As a result, Linux will have some generic driver that almost works but doesn't take advantage of the more interesting features of the hardware.I'm a huge fan of Win 10. It works perfectly, for me! But I must say, Win 7 is pretty solid.I don't know anything about MacOS. That it is full blown Unix would interest me a lot. I like using the command line. I would wonder about USB compatibility and application software for various devices. Not everything is written in Java nor does every application writer bother creating a MacOS version.The mainstream OS for the next several years is Win 10. It is worth getting up to speed.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 05:37:13 pm
content: IMO if you are contemplating about switching to Linux after Win 7 dies you may as well do it now. Windows 7 is a relatively static pillar in OS land and will be an ancient pillar in a few years. "Switching to Linux" is not like installing a distro and be done with it. You don't use Windows and Linux the same ways. You will need to find replacement software, adopt to it or find ways how you can keep using Windows software at an acceptable productivity in a Linux environment (either remote desktop, VM or a second box). PC administration and configuration is done differently. Package managers and upgrading boxes is done differently.That's why I recommended basically start the switch today if you're inclined to do.. the longer you wait the less time you will have when it is a real necessity. It took me a year to fully adopt back to Linux while running it on my laptop (which was then my tinker machine). I now run it for 2 years solid on a new laptop as my daily driver and couldn't be happier.Of course, I think this switching thing is only applicable if you believe that Windows 10 won't improve within a few years. For me personally I don't have that hopes if I also collect my memories from Windows 8.I wouldn't write of Mac, but for hardware and embedded software development I also wouldn't encourage it. Mac is a commercial Unix which sounds great, but Apple is also a company that wants to sell you a 1000$+ device with only 1 port or a "pro" tablet which has the same flaws as almost any other tablet in terms of productivity software and how you can get "shit done". This may be cool for some designer dude, but not for me. I'm sorry, but everyone's needs and insights are different I suppose.For distro recommendations I would recommended staying in or close to the Ubuntu ecosystem, so Xubuntu, Linux Mint, Ubuntu Mate, or maybe even Ubuntu itself it you like Unity.The reason for my recommendation is because Debian, Fedora and Arch is more suited to "open source purists" that only want to run open source software (no proprietary software/drivers in vanilla builds) and don't fear that cutting edge stuff can break some stuff. I consider a "daily driver" rig a "production environment", and therefore not very well suited for these installs. Unless you have the knowledge/experience/inclination to drive these systems.I personally use Xubuntu on my laptop and it's running fine. Before I used Linux Mint Cinnamon which is probably a bit closer to the Windows UI at first, but it can be customized to work very much like Windows 7, or work like how you want it.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 06:02:27 pm
content: Mint is nice, but also add Virtualbox ( and the free VB extensions, so you have a lot more control over peripherals and USB devices) and make a gold master Win7 install. Then make a copy of it and use that, and only transfer your changes ( new programs you are happy with, whenever you decide to run Winupdate) to a new copy of the gold master when you are happy it is all working well. Make a shared drive to store the documents folder, so you can rerad files between the various VM's, and the host system, and you will be fine.I have around 5 copies of the VM at the moment, there with a single function on each, so that a failure on the one will not totally wipe the lot, and where I can easily wipe and recreate one from scratch if it gets issues. Just make the gold master a VM you never use.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 06:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on October 14, 2016, 01:42:24 pmability to think ? hmm. interesting..btw. why did you deleted your posts from this thread ? this way no-one will see how superior your thinking isyou should stand your ground, what was said was said... if you changed your mind then share your new standpoint.. but do not delete evidence. (e.g. all bullshit i ever said on this forum is still here... i'm not deleting anything.)p.s. Sir you earned the second place in my ignore list (for the reason above).

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:38:45 am
content: This thread is amusing to me, since I'm still running WinXP on most of my machines as opposed to Win7, for very similar reasons to why people are now hating Win10 and reverting to Win7.Though, one thing on my todo list, is setup and learn to use thehttps://www.ntlite.com/utility, to build a more 'comfortable' Win7 package, for a specific machine that needs Win7 64bit.As for those speaking of switching to linux after Win7 'dies'(*), are you aware of what the Microsoft-Intel cartel is doing to the PC platform specs, regarding UEFI and secure boot? Incrementally working towards a hardware platform that *cannot* be made to run any OS other than what the manufacturers installed. And you can guess what that will be. So let's hope it's still possible to run Linux on new hardware, by the time you want to try. What does this mean anyway? If a system (hardware and OS) works for its intended purpose, and that is still useful, where is the problem? So what if it's very old and current marketing hype is rubbishing such things? Ignore the hype, just keep using familiar tools if they are working for you. Especially when it becomes apparent that OS/GUI/feature churn is actually motivated by hostile intent, designed to force you to waste time, buy 'new everything', and incrementally lose computing capabilities.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 03:17:53 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 14, 2016, 10:17:29 amI wholeheartedly concur.... I'm an average Joe and set up my kids with Lubuntu, my wife with Ubuntu, and myself with Ubuntu Studio. Have not looked back.... I have the Win7 boot option on all 3 machines still, but rarely if ever use it. I access all my data files from Ubuntu anyways even if on the Win7 partition. I have never felt better using Linux and thought I could never survive without Windows but Ubuntu surprised me.I probably don't need to mention that with my machines being all 5-8 years old with "minimum" specs compared to newer machines, and with Ubuntu flavours on them they just fly compared to Win7. Smooth and quick! I'm not a fan of the Unity desktop on my wife's machine so I installed a menu widget. My kids Lubuntu uses LXDE. And my Ubuntu Studio uses a clean DE (not sure which) but not Unity so it is pretty slick even on my 2008 laptop with 2gb RAM.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 05:51:27 am
content: I'm using Mint 17.3 MATE for my lap/desk tops.This is IMHO the desktop that ressembles , what i'm used (WinXP & older linuxes) to the most.For server i'm using Debian.I haven't tried Mint 18 yet , and have made a habit of never installing the .0 version , maybe i'll give it a try on 18.1/Bingo

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 07:00:44 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 15, 2016, 03:42:49 amNot sure what you mean by "long term support version" Win 7 ends 2020. Win 8.1 ends 2023. Windows 10 ends 2025. Windows 10 Aniversity Edition ends 2026. There is not really such a thing as a "long term support" version of Windows.I have never understood why people don't like Windows 8.1 - as far as I am concerned, it is better then Windows 7. File handling is better.All you need to do to turn it from rubbish to great is to right click on the toolbar. Select properties. In the Navigation->Start Screen tab, tick "Go to desktop instead of Start", "Show Apps view on Start", "List Desktop Apps First in Apps view when Sorted by Category". Uninstall every Metro App you can. One you have learnt how to use the Apps menu, it is pretty nice as long as you don't have to see any hint of Metro. It is more efficient then the Windows 7 Start menu once you learn it.Windows 8.1 is a much better option for business then Windows 10 and it almost doubles the time you can continue before having to upgrade to Windows 10 "Whatever" Version. The ability to reset Windows is pretty good for business use. Windows 7 does have less Microsoft IntrusiveWare then Windows 8.1. That is the only main advantage of Windows 7 over 8.1. Otherwise most end users hardly know they are using Windows 8.1 if they don't see Metro.In case anyone didn't know, you get downgrade rights with Windows Pro versions, so if you have Windows 10 Pro, you can downgrade to 8.1 Pro or 7 Pro. If you have Windows Home, you are out of luck. Microsoft do let you download the Windows 8.1 installation ISO file. They did have the Windows 7 ISO files on DigitalRiver, but they wiped that a few years ago.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 08:16:00 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 15, 2016, 03:42:49 amCorrect.AMD graphic drivers offer a subpar experience on Linux. I ditched AMD last year for that. Since I use NVIDIA and it works much better. Don't bother with open source drivers though, if you want to get any work done that is.Virtualization is indeed not perfect. With NVIDIA, VMware worked best in my experience. It's free but very dumbed down to use, however 3D and CAD does work and you can be productive in it. I use it for my Windows 3D CAD tools.Virtualbox 3D is non-functional in my experience.Wine is non-functional in my experience too. I got some stuff to work at times, but often with many bugs and crashes. Moreover 'niche proprietary software' like CAD tools won't get a lot of attention from the community in terms of fixing bugs, testing and supporting it. Although I guess not using Wine with say Altium "because it doesn't work" won't improve the situation overall.I would like to try KVM and PCI passthrough one day, like so:The host passes through a complete device, in particular graphic cards, that the Windows VM can then use with vanilla AMD/NVIDIA drivers. As demonstrated people play games with this kind of setup.Unfortunately I don't have the machine currently that support this afaik.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 09:36:52 am
content: The simplest way to get into KVM is to install Proxmox. Takes a few minutes to set up a KVM and OpenVZ host on a PC box with a really great web interface. Proxmox VE is open source. It has a nag screen on login that is pretty easy to remove. Very solid. Very reliable.There is an experimental PCI passthrough.https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Pci_passthrough

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 10:34:49 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on October 15, 2016, 12:38:45 amI don't think so, since they would be fined heavily by the EU and forced to allow alternative OSs. Apple was also mentioned, but their market share in the PC business is quite small. Too small for any regulative actions.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 11:44:56 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 15, 2016, 08:28:39 amI see. So you probably have a Asrock X99E-ITX/ac board?I suppose you could replace the mini PCI-e wifi card with a USB Wifi dongle (given that you find a stable Wifi dongle with good reception), and get an adapter/hack board like this:I doubt how stable such a setup will be.. PCI-e on a long cable doesn't sound great. And no enclosure although a 3D printer can fix that.However compared to the "mini ITX powerhouse" you currently have I can understand there is absolutely no appeal to go through so much trouble for a Linux host/Windows guest setup.I have a thinkpad P50 laptop and the way it's external video outputs are connected is only via the NVIDIA GPU. That means that if I were to setup Linux host OS like shown in the video only the guest OS can display on external monitors.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:25:43 pm
content: As far as I can tell, the backlash was swift and decisive. The defacto business vendor, Dell, even offers Linux pre-installed. Also, Microsoft has signed at least a couple of distributions to actually make them compatible with Secure Boot.Big misstep by Microsoft to try and pull that, and it was quickly squashed. I doubt they'd try it again.I keep wanting to get away from Windows, but I just have too many programs that I need to run, and weird solutions to get hardware acceleration is just not an option.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 11:07:17 pm
content: I swear there are really two different Windows 10's out there. I have upgrade all 4 of my machines with ZERO issue, ZERO issues through the updates - including the anniversary update that seems to generate all sorts of fails, but none of my machines has any problem with it. And I do run some strange stuff, not just web browsers and Office apps.Only two of those computers are brand new, as in current generation of hardware and shipsets. One of the others runs a Xeon E3-1230 V2 (couple generations old now) and the other runs a second gen Core I5 (laptop) with the added fun that I replaced the stock 1366x768 panel with a 1920x1080 one (and yes it worked, under Win 7 at the time). The Xeon machine was 7 to 10, the others were Win 8.1 to 10.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:47:41 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on October 16, 2016, 11:07:17 pmAs an OS, I think Windows 10 is quite good. In fact, they've mostly been quite good since the Windows NT/2000 lineage was refined. As an OPERATING SYSTEM. I did a good deal of Windows programming over the years, and it's a rock solid environment, for the most part, and a programming paradise.As a desktop, they've had some ups and downs because they can't seem to get out of the way of their own crapware/spyware. That's really the shame of the whole thing. World class OS coupled with incredible amounts of crappy applications, services and interfaces.There aren't two different Windows 10s. There are two different Microsofts, just like there are two different Apples. There's the Apple that can toss together OSX, and there's the Apple that can toss together iTunes. OSX is quite nice, aside from this crazy Objective-C garbage they seemed to like. iTunes is a steaming pile of crap and is the single biggest reason I went one round with an iPhone and never tried one of their mobile products again.I'm running Windows 10 on my Laptop, though my workstation is still on 7, and there it will stay until I upgrade. I don't have anything bad to say about the 10 OS. It's rock solid. So is 7. I've had my Windows 7 workstation for several years, and I think I've only rebooted it about 30 times. I can tell from some logs I've looked through. Most of those reboots have been from installing updates or having to power down because I lost power and my UPS was going to run out. In fact, I don't think it's ever actually crashed. Every reboot has been voluntary.Ditto for Windows 10.But I spent hours disabling all of the Microsoft craplets that came when I upgraded to 10. What a nightmare. I can't argue with how it runs, though. If they could get their act together and stop cramming all the garbage down our throats, they would have accolades instead of constant hatred.

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 06:30:35 am
content: I've had zero issues with win 10 apart from spend a few hours uninstalling all the extra crapware and opting out of all the tracking/targeted rubbish.It's probably their most stable OS since Win2000.Doing a clean install is usually the cure for problems.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:50:43 am
content: If I had to choose an OS I would go with windows 8.1 + Start8. I've been actively using 7, 8.1, 10 and 8.1 is the best onefor me.There is nothing wrong with w7 but for laptop computers it has significantly slower hibernation, sleep, wake-up etc. That's why I prefer 8.1.Windows 10 works well at my Thinkpad x220 but I prefer old school windows UI better. I consider 8.1 the best choice because of conservative UI (with Start8) and optimized performance.Btw: I also use "ShutUp 10" app for W10.From Linux point of view, I like Linux Mint. (I am an linux BFU)

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:13:07 am
content: I just installed Mint running in VMWare on my workstation. First I tried Mate. I liked it, but I found some funny interactions that would cause the desktop to checkout. It's probably just something to do with running it in a VM, but in the end it was just easier to redo the installation from scratch. Now it's running Cinnamon, and it's fine. I just got Diptrace running under Wine, and it runs perfectly well best I can tell....even the 3d preview is great. Overall, it seems like a pretty good desktop...probably the best I've seen for Linux so far.My FAVORITE Unix desktop, though, is still CDE. Maybe it's just what I'm accustomed to, but I always really liked it.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:22:44 pm
content: From Day 1 I never used iTunes with my iPhone and iPad. You don't need it. It's ESPECIALLY horrible on Windows. And absolutely NEVER let it manage your music library. I have all my music organized by artist and album, and yet iTunes will insist some songs are from different albums and mess it up. No, it is NOT tags on the files, in most cases these are my own CDs I ripped and I known darn well that a given song is the version from a certain CD, not what Apple thinks it is (still means it is messed up on my phone, but I normally play music with the shuffle anyway - at least my neatly organized folders on my server are not messed up). There is a free program I use that can copy music, books, pictures, and other files to and from the IOS devices without using iTunes, for those times I need to - but since getting Kindle Unlimited my reading is almost all in the Kindle app, which downloads the content right from my Amazon account - again, no iTunes needed. The program is called Syncios.Back to Win 10, this is only the second time I've ever bothered with an upgrade, the last time being going from 2000 Workstation to XP, that machine worked just fine after the upgrade until I replaced it with something a little faster/ Normally I wipe and reinstall, or use the opportunity to upgrade the storage and do a fresh install on a new drive. I've done upgrades though for all the 10's. The only real long term one was this machine I am typing on now which had 7 from day 1 and is about 5 years old now. The laptop, I had recently done an 8.1 fresh install (bought a new bigger SSD for it). The two new machines, the easiest way to get 10 on them was install my legit copy of 8.1 and then wait for the upgrade offer - but I only installed 8.1 and then did updates, I held off installing other stuff until after the 10 upgrade happened on them. So they were upgrades but about as simple as you could get.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on October 15, 2016, 12:49:39 amNot at all. In fact, Apple went out of their way to specifically allow Macs to boot Windows (and Linux) after the switch to Intel.The writing was on the wall for BIOS, so they decided to ditch it and go with what would become the new standard. So, instead of porting OpenFirmware (the boot system used with PPC) they chose the new UEFI boot system.The issue is that, at the time (2006-2007), Windows didn't support EFI. So, Apple created a "BIOS Compatibility" EFI module, which emulated BIOS calls. They released this firmware update to all previously released Macs, along with a software package they called Bootcamp.Bootcamp is a macOS program that assists the user in non-destructively re-partitioning the hard disk, burning a driver CD and rebooting into the Windows XP/Vista/7 installation disc.What the poster you quoted is talking about is called Secure Boot, which is something Microsoft is trying to mandate into all new EFI equipped PCs. Essentially, what Secure Boot does is only allow a PC to boot into an OS for which it has a key. So, the PC can be locked down to *only* be allowed to boot into Windows. If you tried to reformat your drive and install Linux, you couldn't.Apple gets a lot of shit for being "closed", but the contrast between Apple and Microsoft is pretty striking here. The twisted thing about that is, Apple makes the hardware, so if anyone had a reason to restrict you into a particular OS, it would be them (but they don't). Microsoft doesn't even make the hardware, so what's their excuse?

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:13:22 pm
content: The general idea isn't a terrible one: prevent root kits from taking over your system. The implementation was extremely heavy-handed.But it seems to have been squashed. I don't know anyone locking down systems like this, and Microsoft has even signed some Linux distributions so they work with secure boot, but just keep it turned off and life it good.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:37:32 pm
content: There is also a new problem. Skylake processors and newer will only run correctly on Windows 10. They have "reasons" for this but WTF?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 06:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 17, 2016, 04:37:32 pmI hadn't heard about that. I know there can be problems installing Windows 7 on 1151 motherboards if the manufacturer only provides USB 3.0 ports (no PS/2 or USB 2), since Windows 7 has no built in support for USB 3.0

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 06:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 17, 2016, 04:37:32 pmSome business PCs with a Skylake CPU are supported:https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/11675/windows-7-windows-8-1-skylake-systems-supported

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 07:52:50 pm
content: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/11675/windows-7-windows-8-1-skylake-systems-supportedThey're saying they won't cut off security updatesearlyfor Skylake systems after all, a backpedaling move from what they had previously announced, which was probably just another scheme to force people over to Windows 10 a little faster.http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/skylake-support-on-windows-7-and-8-1-given-a-one-year-extension/

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:51:10 pm
content: I believe there also was some trouble with Intel's new speedstep technology they introduced with Skylake. The Microsoft Surface with Skylake suffered from poor battery life for months before an update was released, only for Win10 I believe. The new speedstep should allow faster steps in clock speed and power modes, which is overall nice, but MS probably didn't/couldn't fix that in the older Windows 7 architecture/kernels (or didn't bother).Skylake PC's will just boot and work.. other than that probably not much to say. You probably should install Intel's latest microcode to fix some bugs. I see these support limitations as purely business/artificial driven, which is not unique to MS or the PC industry. As engineers/developers we probably all know how horrible it is to support patch changes in older/newer versions, maintain backwards compatibility, etc. Technically alot is possible, given enough time and resources, but MS won't make any money from it (new PC's will rarely be shipped with Windows 7) and want to push Win10 as hard as they can. So all in all it makes sense (for them).Unless you want to utilize one of the latest connectivity options on Intel's platforms there is not much reason to upgrade since like Sandy/Ivy bridge age.Some new standards like USB 3.1 and M.2 is nice. But honestly I have never 'needed' USB3.0 (USB2.0 does fine for my external harddrives etc.), and my current laptop came with a M.2 SSD which is also a bit quicker allround, but not worth the upgrade/extra cost/GB for me.So only if you want to do a new system build I see it as a potential issue.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: hans on October 17, 2016, 09:51:10 pmA lot of business PCs are shipped with Win7 and 10. Companies are very reluctant to move to Win10. Especially in the EU, Win10 might violate several privacy related laws. So companies will have to wait for legal certainty about that.Quote from: hans on October 17, 2016, 09:51:10 pmI like USB3 for fast backups.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:29:29 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 17, 2016, 09:59:53 pmwell it's locked on my Asus Transformer, and that's not even running windows.it was hinted by Asus that it was done by Intel because it has an Intel cpu.i tend to believe this because all Asus Tablets and maybe some other brands that use Intel cpu's are Secure-Boot Locked, but machines from the same manufacturer with ARM cpu's are NOT locked.

author: sony mavica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:28:04 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 14, 2016, 10:17:29 ami love ubuntu but i use that on my laptop my main pc i use everyday i stick with windows 7

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:55:57 am
content: On most of my lab PCs I am running XP very successfully and have no need to change.On my CAD station (mechanical and EE stuff) I am using Win7I looked at Win 8 and said NO wayThen I glimpsed at Win10 and said NO wayI am not sure what will come after Win 7 but why upgrade, if everything runs stable and fulfills my need?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:23:59 am
content: I just reluctantly upgraded from my winxp to win7, having tested both win7 and win10 for a few months.Winxp was perfect for me but more and more of my software cannot run on it. And I wished I had a 64bit version of it. Pae isn't as good as 64but native support.So far win7 has been good.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:30:21 am
content: Win10 broke some software on the last update even though I was running in Win7 compatibility mode, gone back to Win7

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:31:03 pm
content: A potentially good candidate is windows server 2016. I have been playing with it with the goal to use it as a desktop os. Much smaller footprint, and really robust. Some program conpatability issues and not terribly (GUI) user friendly.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 06:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 17, 2016, 04:37:32 pmall 3 of my new pc builds are for skylake and linux.care to retract your statement?win7 has trouble installing on skylake. win8 will install (I'm told). I never tried either one on this chip. but linux - booted and ran with latest mint or ubuntu distro just fine.yesterday I helped our company sysadmin create an old ubuntu install that uses new kernel for skylake. works fine and we get to keep using 14.04 ubuntu for build reasons (compilers, version of python, etc).vlc hd video is really nice and fast on linux and skylake. I built 2 systems that I often use for playback (i5 and i7, both 35w tray versions that are heatpipe passive cooled). no dropped frames and very smooth video. no longer need to use windows anymore.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 07:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on October 29, 2016, 06:27:17 pmI was referring to statements made by Intel and MS regarding the comparability with versions of Windows.It is not clear to me whether Skylake will have all features working in Linux.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:08:10 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2016, 02:44:45 pmwell.. thunderbolt.lack of drivers.. that's another thing

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 11:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 29, 2016, 07:53:19 pmabsurd FUD. of course 'all features' will be supported by linux (which is just power saving, which is all new cpus ever really give you, these days; cpus already have all the instructions you'll likely ever need and the only new things they CAN do is make the hardware faster and add power savings/sleep modes).MS is full of FUD, as usual. they may say that previous windows versions may not get new power savings modes, but linux is not a previous windows version

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:50:40 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on October 14, 2016, 02:24:10 pmWhat on earth are you doing to get kernel panics like that? I've been developing on macs in the past 7 years and not once had problems you describe.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 02:57:43 am
content: I don't understand that really. What does Intel or AMD stand to gain by limiting which operating systems they will support with drivers? Do they not want to sell as many chips as possible?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:50:02 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on October 29, 2016, 11:58:20 pmabsurd FUD. of course 'all features' will be supported by linux (which is just power saving, which is all new cpus ever really give you, these days; cpus already have all the instructions you'll likely ever need and the only new things they CAN do is make the hardware faster and add power savings/sleep modes).MS is full of FUD, as usual. they may say that previous windows versions may not get new power savings modes, but linux is not a previous windows versionWTF? FUD? I said clearly "It is not clear to me whether Skylake will have all features working in Linux." This was a statement of my ignorance, nothing else. MS and Intel have said emphatically that Skylake will only fully work in Win10. They have now apparently extended the date when this will be so. No FUD......................

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 10:32:31 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 30, 2016, 04:50:02 amAll that's happened is Microsoft said that it's no longer going to support new processors in Windows 7/8, and Intel/AMD have said that they no longer intend to write drivers for legacy operating systems. As much as I don't like Microsoft, it seems pretty reasonable to me and is long overdue. They've always had this crazy backwards compatibility thing going on. No one else does that.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 11:06:02 am
content: You might want to read following:-http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-extends-again-support-for-windows-7-8-1-skylake-based-devices/-https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/11675/windows-7-windows-8-1-skylake-systems-supported

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 11:57:12 am
content: Quote from: madires on October 30, 2016, 11:06:02 amThank you ... this to confirm that my Win 7 x64 will stay for a while, at least at home.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 08:40:45 pm
content: Bad news:http://venturebeat.com/2016/11/01/microsoft-stops-selling-windows-7-and-windows-8-1-to-computer-makers/