impedance problem in suez canal - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 06:04:20 pm
content: So it looks like they have a high Z condition

author: calzap
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 06:54:49 pm
content: Looks like tugboats have not increased in size to the extent cargo ships have. The tugboats next to the ship look like mice trying to move a VW. For dealing with future mishaps, the canal authority should invest in some truly giant tugs. Cost would have to come out of a transit fee increase.Mike in California

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 07:01:51 pm
content: bad risk management planning, someone hand waved at this. I am sure the engineering/safety department forsaw that contingency.They are trying to reduce costs too much. Someone should not have authorized that ship to pass through!This is like 'yeah, don't pass the refrigerator through that door' .

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 07:15:07 pm
content: At the time of Sinbad, sailors knew how to handle a sailing vessel in a sandstorm. With the high stack of containers above deck, the ship presented a huge sail area.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 07:19:13 pm
content: Still, they should assume they can take it out, what if the engine failed or something? Its a question of can you push this out of here. I have a feeling its shady, perhaps not declared properly, etc.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 07:20:16 pm
content: I'm no naval engineer but it seems to me there should be a rule of thumb that you don't try to enter a body of water that is narrower than the length of the ship. In perfect conditions as long as ship stays straight I guess it's fine but in this case they definitely got themselves in a kerfuffle and jackknifed her good! We're gonna need a bigger tugboat.They'll probably need to bring in a large dredging ship or similar to try to get it out I imagine.

author: bsdphk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 07:24:41 pm
content: "For dealing with future mishaps, the canal authority should invest in some truly giant tugs. "Those are pretty giant tugs.For tugs it is all about propulsion and the smaller the hull, the better.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 07:35:28 pm
content: Those guys better get to it. My aliexpress order is being held up.Speaking of Suez, remember the worst traffic jam in history?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 07:48:11 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 26, 2021, 07:01:51 pmwe don't ban driving just because people sometimes crash. We don't know what happened yethttps://youtu.be/QLFmojnXtk0

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 08:53:12 pm
content: thats banning driving a 18 wheeler on a rope bridgethis is what financial people wantalso at the money its costing, we will get bullshit explanations and justifications supreme crafted by the bullshit gods of the world. The PR thumb-screw is gonna get turned with a 2 foot long pipe wrench on this one.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 08:56:49 pm
content: While the suction dredging operation is bound to work eventually, given that the blockage is holding up $400M of goods per hour (source: Lloyd's List), I would have thought they would have started hammering some big piles or ground anchors into the ground and using winches (and maybe rams?). I'm sure you must be able to get more force out of a bunch of big winches than a few tug props.Given the cost involved, it doesn't really matter if they damage the ship - as long as it still floats, so they could weld attachment points if necessary.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 09:09:38 pm
content: Maybe if they throw water over it and play whale song, it will find it's own way out to the sea?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 10:28:02 pm
content: Don't worry, managment is on this! Blocking $9.6B of products per day, I've allocated resources.One digger should be sufficient.The memes about this happening are hilarious.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 04:59:58 am
content: It's mind boggling when you consider the amounts of money involved in these delays. These are amounts that can build incredibly large structures or other big projects that can take years, and this is days.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 05:53:43 am
content: Can't they let air out of the tires to pass it through? Or is that buses?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 06:02:35 am
content: They could try filling the ballasts with helium!

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 06:51:26 am
content: Someone is dragging their feet here probably in order to change anything in the new world order you need to create a crisis. For the few days this thing has slowed boat traffic to Europe they could have been REMOVING THE CONTAINERS using helicopters while the tides change and offloading anything in the bilge including fuel. A cynic would say no one really cares in this fiasco because their is of course the insurance to pay for the delays.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 02:27:06 pm
content: There's a driving school for big ships:

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 03:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on March 27, 2021, 06:51:26 amHelicopters?– 20’ DV Container:Tare Weight (Empty shipping container): 2.300 kg/5.071 lbPayload (Maximum cargo weight that acontainer can carry): 25.000 kg/ 55.126 lb– 40’ DV Container:Tare Weight: 3.750 kg/8.268 lbPayload: 27.600 kg/ 61.200 lb

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 04:37:37 pm
content: Don't forget this thing is very nearly a quarter mile long and holds up to 20,124 20 foot containers. Technically feasible or not unloading it in a hurry on site probably isn't gonna happen.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 04:58:07 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 27, 2021, 03:35:51 pmyeh, afaik the biggest helicopter (that isn't a one-of in a museum) can lift ~20000kg

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 05:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: calzap on March 26, 2021, 06:54:49 pmWhy use boat tugs at all? I know the Pamama canal abandoned railed tugs in their new locks, but I doubt it was a smart decision.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 05:53:30 pm
content: News reports indicated that offloading the containers by crane onto other vessels would be a last-ditch effort if all else failed.I also don’t understand why the renovated Panama Canal abandoned the towing locomotives.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 06:06:00 pm
content: Latest update. They're now using 14 tugs and have pumped out 9000 tonnes of ballast water (hope it stays upright). Apparently they will need to bring in a 60m (200ft) high crane if they need to lighten further.It does sound like the stern is more or less free though.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 06:42:18 pm
content: 400m by ~50m high makes for a 20,000 square meter 'wind jammer'. By comparison, a soccer pitch is ~7000 square meters. Back of envelope mode: a beam-on breeze at 10m/s is a million newtons of deflection? Once a cross wind had her moving, she was not going to stop. I wonder if the bow thrusters were in use?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 07:01:30 pm
content: The ship is leaking, two compartments taking on water"in the forward void space of the vessel and the bow thruster room."Smit Salvage says you can damage the ship more using tugs, so the dredging and high Spring tides better work.About a dozen ships are turning back to take theCape HornCape of Good Hope route, so somebody thinks this will take several weeks to resolve.Before the crash, ship was hauling ass at 13.5 knots, canal speed limit is 7-6-8.6 knots.I don't see training to include side gusts of wind. I'm skeptical that is the cause of the accident.edit: fixed cape

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 07:44:28 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 27, 2021, 07:01:30 pmsuch a big ship will be required to have a pilot on board, maybe he was sleeping

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 07:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 27, 2021, 07:01:30 pmCape of Good Hope actually. That's another 8.5 days (assuming that you're not already stuck in the jam), so yes, it seems a reasonable risk - especially when you consider how long it's going to take to clear the backlog!Quote from: langwadt on March 27, 2021, 07:44:28 pmFrom floobydust's link, they had two canal pilots on board.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 07:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on March 27, 2021, 07:44:28 pmMaybe he's a former Cairo taxi driver....

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2021, 10:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 27, 2021, 07:45:25 pmFixed. I think the new route times are longer? I was reading around 10 days additional, plus port backlog time. This is especially terrible for European trade.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 04:16:28 am
content: The users of the marine forumn i read are calling for Tugs with a minimum of 200 Tons Bollard Pull. Evidenty those do not grow on trees in the area. They are also calling for a rock cutting dredge to open out the canal bottom, besides moving the sand. They feel the ideal solution will be hydraulic chain pullers installed on land. So the problem is a logistics issue.Steve

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 06:48:28 pm
content: It sounds as if they can move the stern by about 30 degrees but there's a big mass of rock under the bow - probably not were you want it and pretty hard to move with the weight of a container ship on to of it! It's probably acting as a very high wear single use bearing as the shift the stern from side to side too.Prepare to lighten ship!https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-56547383

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 06:57:53 pm
content: Just flood the Suez with hydrogen peroxide, the increased density should make the boat float higher, no? Seems simple enough, I'll head to the pharmacy and start buying some...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 07:00:39 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 28, 2021, 06:48:28 pmInitial news made it seem as if the ship lost power and sort of drifted onto a soft, sandy bank or something and then turned sideways. What really appears to have happened is that it rammed a reinforced concrete wall at 13 knots. It's firmly beached and there is going to be significant damage to the underside of the bow. If they don't have it off tonight, it looks like they'll need to start moving containers off of the front. Truly a first-order f***-up.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 09:35:00 pm
content: Another graduate of the Francesco Schettino Institute of Marine Piloting?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 09:52:58 pm
content: How much longer it take across the cape depends on where one starts and the ships speed: a container vessel may be nearly twice as fast as a oil tanker going low speed to save on fuel.Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on March 28, 2021, 06:57:53 pmThis is not a good idea, though it may (dis)solve the problem.

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 10:01:13 pm
content: I was disappointed when I saw how far the ship is from the mouth of the canal. I really wanted to see them touch off a little nuke under water and send a tsunami up the canal to lift her loose. Could have a tug drop a few anchors up the canal a bit so the wave straightens her out in the process. They have insurance on the cargo, don't they?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 10:29:46 pm
content: how about mounting rockets to itgiven the size of it and how efficent gasoline is and how long it takes for a force to build up in it I don't think it would be too good unless you need to apply force in a different point along with a strong yank to dislodge something, but it sounds like this might turn into a scrap removal job if it floods (I think it depends on how good the bulkheads are, i.e. is the ship warped), if they are good it can be welded up and pumped dryI think typically the problem with ships is when they get fucked up mechanically and the doors between compartments cannot close well, I imagine it gets expensivebut there aint no welder on the planet that won't be worth the money at the rate they are loosing it and the dollar value of the ship, they can get 5k an hour and it won't scratch that recovery budgetYou know I do wonder if the ship coulda been hacked to do that. they can always blame hackers

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 10:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on March 28, 2021, 09:52:58 pmHow about more good old sodium chloride? Dead Sea that sucker out of there!

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 11:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on March 28, 2021, 04:16:28 amAnd one estimate I heard was that it might require 33,000 tons of pull. That's a lot of tug boats.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 11:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on March 28, 2021, 11:03:48 pmWell, there's a Saturn V already on its side in Florida, maybe they can press that thing into service for a few seconds...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 11:49:05 pm
content: For comparison, a Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range Rwy class M-3 "Yellowstone" 2-8-8-4 simple articulated heavy-duty steam locomotive has a tractive force of 70 US tons.When I was a mere lad, I could see (through my bedroom window) these in operation, hauling heavy trains of iron ore, and assumed that they were "normal". I later found that Yellowstones were the highest tractive force steam units ever operated in the US.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 11:58:12 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 28, 2021, 11:49:05 pmThis thing is nearby, how much can it pull?https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=USS-Harry-S-Truman-CVN75

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 12:22:15 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on March 28, 2021, 11:58:12 pmIf thrust scales with power, perhaps 4000 tons. But I don't think you can bring a Nimitz-class carrier to full power in the middle of that canal without having some other issues. Perhaps the propwash would help free up the cargo ship or maybe it would tip it over.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 12:55:23 am
content: I think someone on FB got it figured out. Just need to find some good tow straps.Seriously though, pile drive some big beams into the ground and some kind of very large industrial winch could maybe be used.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 04:37:30 am
content: https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/massive-ship-blocking-the-suez-canal-has-been-freed/ar-BB1f41PC?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 09:09:35 am
content: Yay, they've swung the stern 80 degrees.... and still stuck!I wonder how much it would take to fully empty the ballast, fuel etc. and roll it out of the way onto the bank! Cheap at twice the price.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 11:01:10 am
content: Why not usecamels?

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 11:18:23 am
content: Get some old hippies from the 60's to levitate the thing like we did to the Pentagon.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 12:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on March 29, 2021, 11:01:10 amThe Arabs should know about camels, but the ones in charge are dutch.With the ship now so close to the bank it is likely no longer an option. It may have been an option initially, but at the size of the ship it would need sizable ones and they are likely no available so fast.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 12:40:31 pm
content: if thats not fake or hacked post fact then the ship got hacked prior to the fact or there is a seriously disgruntled employee or its just a joke (captain told to burn time). Its too funny for a coincidence.https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cargo-ship-ever-given-penis/

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 12:43:06 pm
content: Quotemaybe a reverse dutch solution,instead of a little boy with his finger in the dyke,have loads of little boys pissing in the canal to raise its level

author: Vovk_Z
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 02:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on March 29, 2021, 04:37:30 am- I'm sure it happened only because of a several very helpful advises in this topic.And several possibilities (for example, with Atlas V) were wasted.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 03:38:40 pm
content: its free

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 05:53:50 pm
content: Quote from: Vovk_Z on March 29, 2021, 02:13:31 pmUh oh, did someone call the USS Harry S. Truman and let them know they can turn back?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 06:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 26, 2021, 07:20:16 pmWhether they are seawater canals for huge ocean going vessels, or inland canals for vessels specifically designed for canal only use, it has always been normal for canals to carry ships longer than the width of the canal. Canals cost serious money. Making them any wider than is necessary for 2 vessels to pass each other safely would make most of them too costly to be viable.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 06:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 29, 2021, 03:38:40 pmIt's bloody expensive.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 07:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 29, 2021, 06:06:24 pmSome canals are not even wide enough that 2 of the larger ships can pass. So they have to operate at last parts in one way mode. This is the usual way for the suez canal. They are in the process to widen the longer northern part, so that they can go both directions at the same time, at least for that part.If the ship is much longer than the canal is wide, the ship can not longer so large an angle to hit the banks - so it gets a little safer. The ship was not too long - it was too short.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 07:22:04 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on March 29, 2021, 07:08:30 pmYeah, its common for there to be canal sections, over things like viaducts, which operate for a while in one direction and then a while in the opposite direction, to minimise construction costs. There are also spots geographically constrained for width which are one way at a time. Locks, except in the busiest location, are usually one way at a time. The local canal where I was a kid had an odd arrangement of double locks for some locations interspersed with single locks for others. I guess when the system was first built some sections were expected to have massively more traffic than others.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 07:20:02 am
content: Applying Cunningham's law: As so often with Japanese humor - I don't get it. So I will post a possibly wrong answer and hope to be corrected."バズった怪しい研究" - "(their) Weird experiment went viral""間違いの指摘" - "(now they are) pointing out (someone else's minor) mistakes"Why bother putting this picture here? Well, I hate total surveillance. I mean that could have been me, a quarter century ago. Working in a place with lots of sand, the next toilet 1 kilometer away, 50°C. "Don't get caught, it is considered very offensive.", the colleagues said. Man-sized tires make a great target, though.