Choosing a ~$10K MSO (Keysight 3000G, LeCroy 4000HD, Tek MSO34, R&S ??) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 06:10:40 pm
content: Hey everyone,I'm hoping I can get some feedback on my thoughts and testing I've done, to help make a final decision. If I've missed something or gotten it wrong, please tell me! Similarly, if there's some other model I should definitely look at, please let me know!Right before I started my new job at the university chemistry department in September (where I am the sole electronics tech in the workshop), the workshop got approved to buy a new oscilloscope because the existing LeCroy WaveRunner 8254-M's power supply was on the fritz. In between submitting the request for a replacement scope and me starting the job, someone in another department took a look at the WaveRunner and replaced a few caps, and since then, I haven't been able to reproduce the fault, so it seems fixed. Nonetheless, a new scope got approved, but not something quite as expensive as the 4ch, 2.5GHz, 40GS/s WaveRunner.Because I only just started in the department, I don't really have a good feel for what types of signals I'll really be dealing with, nor what all the development activities I'll be facing. After talking to some of the professors whose research is the electronics-heavy stuff, I don't actually think the scope demands arethatextreme -- they use converters to translate extremely short pulses to longer ones, and it seems that the timingbetweenpulses, rather than their amplitude or duration, is the critical measurement. The one professor designs some of his own hardware -- things like ADCs, TDCs, or FPGAs, with MCUs running the show -- so I suspect some embedded development will come my way, too.Additionally, my job involves a lot of repair and maintenance of all kinds of lab gear, from magnetic stirrers to mass spectrometers, including setups controlled by Labview or Python.Based on that, the other scopes in the labs, and the WaveRunner being seemingly fixed, I came up with the following requirements/wish list:- 4x 500MHz analog channels- digital inputs for mixed-signal, for embedded development- serial decode for embedded development- fundamentally a reasonably well-equipped scope, options-wise, because of the uncertainty of the tasks to come- arb generator not a requirement, since I have a separate one. Only potential advantage of an integrated one is Bode plotting.I had the various reps bring by some candidate scopes (and in the case of R&S, bring by the MXO4, though there's no way they could fit that in my budget, and they know it!), so I tried out the following:- R&S ScopeRider (ScopeMeter-like "handheld" scope with galvanically isolated inputs)- R&S MXO4- Keysight MSOX3054G- LeCroy WaveSurfer 3104z and 4054HD- Tek MSO24 and MDO34I didn't request a demo unit of the R&S RTM3000, which would be a candidate, because that's what I used at my last position, so I'm already familiar with it (and can go upstairs and use it if need be).The Tek rep was kind enough to loan me asignal demo board, too. Its "rare anomaly" and "frequent anomaly" signals were very illustrative, consisting of repeating pulse trains (every 1.6us), with defective pulse trains (containing a spike and a runt) occurring approximately once every 800ms and 100ms, respectively. Every scope could easily trigger on either of those anomalies by using the pulse width or runt triggers. The differences were in even seeing that therewereany anomalies at all!Here's what I've figured out so far about each candidate:Common to all, except where noted:5GS/s sample rate (4ch), 2.5GS/s (4ch) 4 analog channels with probe ID/power interface and switchable 50 ohm termination, 8-bit ADCs, 16 digital channels, ethernet and USB, touchscreen with mouse and keyboard support, "all the options" means digital inputs, serial decoders, analysis options, and arb generator. Sample memory given in NNN/nnn Mpts, meaning at 2 and 4 channels, resp.Rohde & Schwarz:RTM3000: Great scope in many ways (10 bit ADC, great FFT!), but it'd drive me nuts on a daily basis because its UI is irritatingly sluggish. Nice intensity grading. Bode plot option. 80/40MptsMXO4: Fantastic scope overall, with 12-bit ADC, insane waveform update rate, extraordinary FFT, big, sharp display, and a reasonably snappy UI. Nice intensity grading. But to get one of these, I'd have to sacrifice practically all options and go rather low on bandwidth.Handled the rare and frequent anomaly tests with ease. Rotary encoder knobs are made completely of rubber, and one of them stripped its inside knurling already. 400/400Mpts. 5GS/s digital acquisition rate for all channels. Bode plot option.ScopeRider (RTH1000): Snappy UI, nice waveform update rate, 10-bit ADC, battery-powered, with galvanically isolated CAT IV 300V inputs. 5GS/s for 1 channel, but drops to 1.25GS/s for 4 channels. No probe ID, smallest screen of all, and since it's in the "giant multimeter" form factor, not really optimized for bench use. So-so feature set (though excellent for a handheld scope). Lowest vertical range is 2mV/div, but maximum is 100V/div. No 50 ohm mode. Decent monochrome intensity grading. Decent FFT. 8 digital channels. External power supply. Handled the demo board's anomaly tests with ease. Feels really solidly built. Physical controls optimized for use with gloves. Optimized for real-time more than post-capture analysis. No arb generator option.Common to all the R&S:UI tends to require going through a lot of screens to find things.Nice diagrams of things like triggers, but not super awesome online help texts.Excellent web interface with high frame rate screen sharing and touch control.Measurements slow down display updates, but not by too much.Logic analyzer pods are 8-bit, so if you don't need 16 bits, you can just plug in one pod and not have those extra 8 leads flopping around.Tek:MSO24: Adorable form factor (other than the external power supply). UI is snappy most of the time but can get bogged down at times. Fairly light on features. Waveform update rate not impressive. Passable on the frequent anomaly test, took a while to capture the rare anomaly. Mediocre FFT. True multi-grid ability at full resolution. On-screen numeric keyboard refined.MDO34: Nice form factor with great build quality and little touches like the feet that lock in place under the weight of the scope. Waveform update rate in normal mode not impressive. In FastAcq mode (where all features are disabled), decent on the frequent anomaly test, "meh" on the rare anomaly. Still fairly light on features. UI snappy most of the time. Nice intensity grading. Separate RF input for spectrum analyzer, FFT good. Would have to sacrifice bandwidth a bit to fit into budget. On-screen numeric keyboard a little rough around the edges.Common to both:Nice web interface with fast update rate on VNC connection.UI can get sluggish when decoding serial.Labels on voltage divisions, but not horizontal divisions.Dual multipurpose rotary encoders (e.g. one per cursor, or one each for upper and lower thresholds).Otherwise very light on hardware buttons, many core functions require double-tapping the screen.Measurements slow down display updates.Unclear what they're optimized for.Setting sample rate and memory manually is cuckoo on these.LeCroy:WaveSurfer 3104z: In terms of sheer value for money, this is the winner, since they could fit it into the budget with ALL options and 1GHz bandwidth. 4GS/s. Mediocre waveform update rate. With persistence, the frequent anomaly signal took a few secs to capture, the rare anomaly quite a while. No labels on grid divisions (only an option to label the extrema). UI elements sometimes a bit small to hit with a finger, especially near the edge due to recessed display. UI often a bit sluggish, enough to annoy me.WaveSurfer 4054HD: Superb value for money, with a lightly-used 500MHz demo unit fitting in the budget with all options. UI much snappier. 12-bit ADC, bigger display with no bezel, so on-screen targets easier to hit. Has labels on divisions. 25/12.5Mpts memory. Separate coarse/fine general-purpose knobs.WaveRunner 8254-M (existing): Monster sample rate (40GS/s) and bandwidth (2.5GHz). Full Windows OS under the hood. UI is usually snappy. Big, sharp display. Tons of display options. Very mediocre waveform update rate: with infinite persistence, slow at capturing the frequent anomaly, almost entirely incapable of capturing the rare anomaly regardless of settings. 128Mpts memory. Unfortunately, this unit does not have the MSO option (which cannot be added after the fact) and has no serial decoder options installed.Common to all LeCroy:Identical UI across models: nice layout that appeals to me.Practically nonexistent online help, other than on triggers.Nice auto trigger level finder. 'Very much focused on signal analysis, not real-time signal viewing.No peak or envelope acquisition modes.So-so intensity grading.Display persistence only in fixed steps.Measurements slow down display updates.Really nice serial decode display in the waveform grid.Ability to save setups, waveform acquisitions, etc to disk and then import them to a higher model, like the WaveRunner, to use its more powerful analysis capabilities after the fact.Poor acceleration control on rotary encoders (jumps to really fast at some point).No web interface, just control via the comprehensive, but data-oriented, Windows-only desktop software (no live stream of the display). (I figured out after the demo units went back that there may be a web interface after all, accessible by changing the network settings on the scope. I don't feel stupid for not figuring this out before the demo units went back, since LeCroy's documentation is extraordinarily sparse, and even the LeCroy rep didn't know when I asked!!)Irritatingly slow response to signing up for a web account, which is needed to downloadanythingfrom the company.Keysight:MSOX3054G: G models are the same as the T models, just with most of the options thrown in by default. Smaller display with bezel that makes it a bit hard to hit the top status bar. Second-highest waveform update rate after the MXO4, but with obviously higher display redraw (not refresh) rate. Hands-down, by a wide margin, the snappiest user interface of all, with so little lag that it usually feels like an analog scope. They say they do everything in hardware, and it shows. (The flip side is that it's a clearly "old" design in other ways.) Nice intensity grading (but 64-level monochrome only) that looks like an analog scope. Best context-sensitive online help: press and hold any button and a nice text pops up. UI is old-fashioned but easy to use, though a bit cramped on the small resolution of the display. Lots of physical controls, but also completely mouse-controllable. Measurements do not affect waveform update rate at all. Hardware serial decode. Zone trigger seems potentially really useful. Bode plot. Really lousy FFT. Web interface is complete, but screen sharing is not super fast (maybe 3fps). Desktop software is buggy. Probably the noisiest front-end. Just 2Mpts real-time memory (4Mpts single-shot). I'd really love it if the Keysight rep were able to finagle a MSOX4054G instead, simply for the larger display.Bonus:Rigol DS1054z: My dinky little scope at home worked approximately as well as the Tek MDO34 at making visible the two anomaly test signals. And its intensity grading is actuallynicerthan the Keysight's, putting it right at the top alongside the MXO4 and MDO34. Impressive for being a bargain-basement model from 8 years ago. It also makes me curious as to how good higher-end Rigols are. Unfortunately, Rigol has not yet responded with an offer for a demo.The upshot is, at this point, that unless R&S can come up with an insanely high discount on the MXO4, it's really down to the LeCroy 4000HD and the Keysight 3054G, with me leaning towards the Keysight. The LeCroy would have the advantage of the same user interface as, and high compatibility with, the WaveRunner, and it would bring with it hands-down the best set of options. But it's got the same strengths and weaknesses as the WaveRunner, in that it's an analytical scope. On the other hand, the Keysight wouldcomplementthe WaveRunner, in that the Keysight is more of a real-time scope that reacts instantly and makes it easier to discover the existence of anomalies. My thinking is that the Keysight would make it easier to identify what it is I want to look at, and that if I really need to analyze it in detail, I could then use the WaveRunner to do so. Similarly, the WaveRunner's FFT is pretty decent, so it could serve that purpose.Am I missing anything?Are there any "gotchas" with these models that I don't know about?Am I giving too much weight to having digital inputs?Would that be better spent on a separate USB logic analyzer like a Saleae or Analog Discovery?Thanks for any insight or tips you may have.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 07:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 06:10:40 pmSiglent rebadged SDS3000X, a model range only seen in the west branded LeCroy and its predecessor SDS3000 was a collaborative development.SDS5000X or SDS6000A models are of more recent designs.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 07:35:04 pm
content: @Tooki:QuoteAnd this is already the improved version...We have a WS3024Z in exchange for our previous scope, a WS3024 without Z.That was a terribly slow, buggy thing, the Z version is much faster but honestly nothing compared to the PC based models.We borrowed the HDO4034A and were quite impressed, despite the rather small memory.But then we decided on an HDO6034A (and a WS9054), it is even faster than the 4000, we got the spectrum analyzer option, the power analyzer option and the serial decoder options as a bonus and thus paid almost 14000€ (for the WS9054 with the same options 12000€).Lecroy has no problem with borrowing equipment for the time being and I would only buy directly from them, not from dealers.I don't know Tek and Keysight, to get something similar to the HDO, only the 6000A would come into question with Siglent, possibly the new DSO7000, which according to siglent eu should be on the market this year, like the larger lecroys it is a pc-based scope.An MXO4 is also very appealing to me, even if it is not a pc-based scope and therefore lacks the corresponding cpu/ram expansion options.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 07:44:07 pm
content: @Tooki: Did you look at any of the Yokogawa models?For embedded development, you will want to get the deepest memory money can buy. The Keysight is likely the worst choice as the memory is shared across 4 to 8 different sections leaving you with 1/4th or even 1/8th of the memory depth it says on the badge (which is already a super small amount according to today's standards).

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 07:55:07 pm
content: Used Yokogawa digital scopes since 1995.Have several DL7440.The later MSO Yokogawa DLM2440>>3440 (?) may be what you want.Jon

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 07:59:54 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 05, 2023, 07:35:04 pmIt might be beyond tooki's budget however as the base model will be 2 GHz BW which for SDS6204A (top 6000 model) is already $9990.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/

author: bozidarms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 08:47:37 pm
content: No doubt - LeCroyUnmatched signal analysis capability.

author: mk_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 09:15:58 pm
content: Are generic currentprobes and diffprobes aviable or branded ones?As there are some nice tools inhouse - I would go for a tool that`s not aviable at the moment, extending the capabilitiesWhat`s the reason that Cleverscopes or Picoscopes are no on your list?We use... well... we avoid most of the time the aviable Wavesurfer because of... how it works. No screendump via LAN, slow, I2C debuging is much slower then slow.For us an oscilloscope is something to show unknown signals, something which is needed to verify something... so there is a lot of configurationtime needed to find spurious signals... to zoom in or find the right trigger... It`s an interactive workflow when using the LeCroy HDO6xxx. But not with the Wavesurfer... that`s not something can be called "workflow" because it`s so slow.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 09:18:40 pm
content: Quote from: bozidarms on November 05, 2023, 08:47:37 pmIf you need that... For general purpose work you'll want peak-detect and filling all the memory even if not all of it is on screen. Lecroys typically can't zoom out which is something that is super handy for doing embedded development work. I have an older Wavepro 7k series with a crapload of options and it fullfills the wildest dreams you can have where it comes to signal analysis, but no way I would want to use that scope as a daily driver. Tooki seems to have a similar model already.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 09:30:23 pm
content: You can also work quite normally with today's models.We mostly use our models in the test field, where we certainly don't do any development work.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 10:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2023, 09:18:40 pmAnd the scopes discussed have several other ways to achieve the same result. In many ways the more flexible windows/views of the Lecroy where the user can freely define the split between the views is far and away more useful than your hacky "zoom out", which while it may fit your construed workflow does not naturally make sense.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 10:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 06:10:40 pmProbably, unless you have a known/demonstrated need to time correlate many channels. I've used MSO sections only a handful of times in real situations and it was never essential but just nice to have (would have found the same information by repeating the experiments and moving the analog channels around the DUT.Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 06:10:40 pmCostings presented did not include probes. You are already limiting choices to scopes with active probe interfaces for some reason. What is the fleet of available probes already?Consider looking at a Siglent 6000A + LPA10 to share probes with the bigger lecroy.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:02:01 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 05, 2023, 10:18:02 pmBear in mind that the WaveSurfer models can’t do this with anywhere near the flexibility of the WaveRunners.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 05, 2023, 10:30:35 pmYeah, that’s more or less been my experience so far.Quote from: Someone on November 05, 2023, 10:30:35 pmNo existing active probes around. Other than appreciating the basic divider ratio detection ring for ordinary probes, the active probe interface isn’t a requirement, just an artifact of the scope class I’ve been looking at.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:08:10 pm
content: QuoteAnd HDOs...I wouldn´t go for any wavesurfer model.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 11:02:01 pmYou need to include active probes into the picture... Many times that makes decision for you. If you already have some probes for certain platform that is big plus. Or when buying new probes, being able to sell "but it will work for other scopes too.." helps too..If some of he work will be on precision analog (ADCs or something) then 12 bit is plus.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 06:10:40 pmThere can be a lot of heated debate around this but in the end you are the one who knows best what kind of projects you get on your desk. Personally I like to have digital channels on a DSO in order to use it as a general purpose logic analyser / correlating digital signals with analog signals. The biggest advantage is that an oscilloscope is already on your desk and hooking up signals is easy. So no need to pull a computer screen + mouse + keyboard near the already crowded working area.Another question is whether a generic USB logic analyser is a good alternative to a dedicated protocol analyser. For example: When I need to deal with a CAN bus, I typically use a dedicated CAN bus dongle together with software which can capture, analyse and save all data. Ofcourse decoding is still usefull up to a certain amount of data but a CAN bus generally has a huge amount of data being repeated so memory fills up fast with useless data.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:21:07 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 05, 2023, 11:08:55 pmIt’s hard for me to guess whether I’ll do anything that would require active probes — my understanding/observation so far is that the faster signals are already on 50 ohm lines.My former coworker (the one who repaired the WaveRunner) actually built his own active 4GHz (IIRC) differential probes for the LeCroy interface. (So far, with a 3D printed housing to plug in directly and draw power, but without I2C communication, for now.) Whether for the WaveRunner or potential future WaveSurfer, he said he’d share the design with me once he’s refined a few things.(I think he said it cost something like 50 bucks to build, and it’s similar in performance to some probes LeCroy charges 6000 for, albeit with a smaller input voltage range.)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 11:21:07 pmCurrent probes, high voltage diff probes, or even a high impedance low capacitance single ended active probe. If you need to work of wide number of different devices it gets interesting sometimes..

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2023, 11:12:07 pmYeah, unfortunately I just haven’t been in this position long enough to have a really good idea of what kinds of projects I’ll have, hence the nebulous requirements. What I’ve done so far is all stuff that would be easily handled by a $400 Rigol, but the laser labs full of expensive, fast pulse generation and detection gear, and the little bit I’ve been told about the one prof’s own boards, makes me fairly certain that wouldn’t suffice forever. But I also am reasonably certain that massive bandwidth isn’t needed either, it being my understanding that the 2.5GHz WaveRunner was acquired at a steeeeeep discount, far exceeding actual requirements.Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2023, 11:12:07 pmWhat kind of interface would you recommend?One PhD student I’m doing a project for would love to do some CAN bus reverse engineering (since Agilent doesn’t document their command protocol).Is the dedicated interface you’re thinking of analogous to, for example, the Aardvark for I2C?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:33:09 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 05, 2023, 11:27:32 pmI believe it. But again hard to predict what will actually be needed. :/I know that “generic” current probes and HV differential probes are readily available. Not so much for active probes, correct?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:35:37 pm
content: I will add that investigating these scopes has a) taught me a lot about oscilloscopes, and b) showed me just how much I have yet to learn about oscilloscopes! :pAlso, this is what the loaner scopes looked like in the storage cabinet.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 11:30:49 pmAt least the signal analysis needs will be covered by that oscilloscope so you won't have to concentrate too much on that on your new purchase. There is not a single oscilloscope which is perfect for all situations.QuoteI'm not familiar with the Aardvark. Rings a faint bell though. For CAN I'm using Lawicel CAN-USB dongle and CAN monitor pro software. The software is sold seperately. IIRC I got these from Antratek.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 11:56:41 pm
content: @Tooki: A nice selection....QuoteYepp, hard to find, only elder used ones.For current probes, I wanted to move away from the lecroy probus system in order to become independent of it in the test field.It is no secret that Hioki manufactures such probes for almost all brands and the ones for Siglent can actually be used universally for all scopes.With the same technical properties.And they cost just under 6000€...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 12:06:22 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 11:02:01 pmYeah much has been made of this by folks that can't get their head around another way of doing the same thing.It suits some and not others but scopes at the level you are looking at offer Mem management options thereby pleasing all.Key is mem depth providing orders of magnitude better zoom out capability than some of the so-called A brands.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 12:46:55 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2023, 11:50:26 pmAin’t that the truth! That’s one of the reasons I’ve been leaning towards the Keysight, in that its strengths are very, very different from the LeCroy I already have.It’s a pity the Rohde & Schwartz RTB2 and RTM3 series have such woefully sluggish user interfaces, or else one of those would be a wonderful choice. :/

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 12:48:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2023, 07:44:07 pmNot really. The lack of any mention of waveform update rate kinda scared me off. Do you reckon they’re worth a look? The “portrait” layout of the unit is very appealing.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 12:53:40 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 05, 2023, 07:59:54 pmSince Siglent is closely entwined with LeCroy, it’s my understanding that Siglent scopes lean more towards being “analytical” scopes like LeCroys, as opposed to “interactive” or “real-time” scopes like Keysight (and Rigol, which more closely copies them). Since I already have a heavy-duty analytical scope, I think I should be focused more on a real-time model. Does Siglent have something more like that?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 01:16:36 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 06, 2023, 12:53:40 amYeah well in your mind what defines such ?WFPS update rates ?Consider that providing best WFPS rates vs sampling rates and a digital trigger ?IMO sampling rate is king when combined with a digital trigger.Also consider how sampling rate can be /ch or max/channels in use.Ideally 5 GSa/s (or better) on each channel is the preferred solution.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 02:00:25 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 11:05:40 pmIf its not a hard requirement then better to leave it out, you may well be better served with a lower cost scope to complement the GHz unit already on hand. Given a budget I'm usually putting a third to a half on probing but others have different balances/needs.Quote from: tooki on November 06, 2023, 12:53:40 amTry and wrangle a demo from your local dealer, as it is your wishlist sits between their 2000 and 6000 series. Both are very competent for interactive/realtime use.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 03:02:30 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 05, 2023, 06:10:40 pmUsed Keysight 4000X 1.5G with digital for $10k?https://savings.em.keysight.com/en/used/oscilloscopes/msox4154a-u01-2466425

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 05:40:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 06, 2023, 03:02:30 amStated feature = Capture more data with4 Mpts memoryand standard segmented memoryA $339 DSO has 3x more memory.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 07:59:13 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 06, 2023, 05:40:20 amQuote from the OP: "it's really down to the LeCroy 4000HD and theKeysight 3054G"I suggested the 4000X for the same price.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 08:04:07 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 06, 2023, 05:40:20 amIt is even worse.4Mpts is available only on 1 channel per ADC (ch 1 and 3 for instance) and only in single mode.If 4 ch enabled and in RUN mode is 1MPTs.If you enable MSO then only 512KPTs is available

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 08:12:42 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 06, 2023, 08:04:07 amKinda laughable when several DSO's under $10k offer 500 Mpts mem depth.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 08:46:44 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 06, 2023, 12:46:55 amI use an RTM3004 as my daily driver. The UI is not the fastest but if you use the touchscreen efficiently (with the user defineable hotkeys for example), you can get things done quickly. IMHO the RTM3004 is a good choice for doing embedded development work and is a good complement to the Lecroy beast you already have. The MXO4 is likely nicer so perhaps it is worth persuing a deal.About probes: I guess this purchase is part of the academic end of year buying frenzy? If yes, buy the probes / extra options next year OR purchase them as part of tooling for a specific project.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 09:27:02 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 06, 2023, 12:53:40 amLogic of Siglent scopes is very similar to logic of LeCroy.Slightly slower refresh rate is not show stopper. It simply means sometimes you will see the glitch every 5 seconds instead of every 2 seconds. It is slower but still works. But lack of memory will prevent you from using high sample rate for longer timebase. There is no workaround for that. Your 500MHz scope soon becomes a 20 MHz scope.Or less. Or undersamples....I have here 2 Siglent scopes and also Keysight MSOX3104T.I don't see much advantage from super high refresh rates on Keysight, but I do see problems because of short memory on Keysight that makes it drop sample rate much quicker as you go to longer time-bases. 2MPTs compared to 100MPTs is large factor.Let's say you want to measure a parameter, like risetime, and want to do statistics on 1000 edges for an average.Keysight takes only one measurement per trigger. On first edge from the left side of the visible screen, not in relation to trigger.You will need 1000 trigger events until you get your 1000 measurements. So you shorten timebase so only one event is on screen. And since it uses decimated data, short timebase will increase timing resolution too. You need to always keep short timebase anyways, because otherwise sample rate drops. It needs super fast triggering because otherwise......On Siglent or LeCroy, enter deep measurements.You take one, single, capture with 1000 edges in it. Since you have long memory you keep maximum sample rate and retain same timing resolution as with short timebase. Scope will go into that capture and measure each and every edge and add them to the stats. All 1000 of them from a single trigger. Or 10000 from a single trigger.In this particular case, which one is faster?Also hardware decode in Keysights is both good and bad. It is fast, but you have to setup everything perfectly up front, before capture. You cannot capture some nice long UART data, and you realize it is not 8bit no parity but 7bit with parity and it all looks scrambled. You cannot go into settings, set it right and it will then decode properly. It was decode at capture time and that is it. You need to update settings and recapture new capture from begining. OTOH, this scope actually captures data with a comparator built in analog channel. Because of that it will sometimes decode data that in analog view looks unrecognizable... But that is a crutch that works despite it's short memory..On scopes with software decode, you can capture some data even without decode being on. You can enable/disable decode at will and play with settings until it shows propper data...Also Siglents/LeCroy have always running History of captures in background. It is similar to segmented capture but while normally using scope...Every concept will have bad and good sides...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 01:50:47 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 06, 2023, 09:27:02 amThe same goes for R&S and Yokogawa. It might be handy because having an automatic history mode is typically easier to use compared to setting up segmented recording.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2023, 04:31:20 pm
content: Does this have to be a new model?I have a few Lecroy's some Keysight (6000 models) Siglent & Rigol. Everyday models we use Wavesufer HD's.Have seen HDO6000's around the 12K mark, depends on which BW and sample rate you are looking, The R&S MX04 is also a very fine scope though it may be outside your of your budget. Do shop around currently one or two manufacturers are dropping their trousers for specific models.Also, Keysight are doing some 'deals' on the 3000 series as well currently.Although I would suggest pretty much all scopes for hence forward will be 12 bit, so do take that into consideration.If you are looking to extract more performance then you may wish to look at the hackers whore specials Siglent, in fairness the brand has make very positive strides in the performance and reliability stakes in the last few years.plenty of choice out there, what I would also suggest prioritise exactly what features you are looking for, take into the PROBE cost, and any future app upgrades that may be of use. Power Analysis/3 Phase/ Serial Data/ power rail analysis etc.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 09:27:22 pm
content: Just a quick update, since a decision has been made. I still want to respond to a number of replies above, but that will have to wait; I had an eye doctor appointment today and 10 hours later my eyes are still wonky from the dilating drops. :/After a bit more discussion with the relevant professors, it became clearer that this really just needs to be an all-purpose scope, and that high bandwidth is not expected to be necessary (and if needed on occasion, served by one of the big LeCroys in the department.)With high bandwidth off the table, I was able to go for theRohde & Schwarz MXO4. The rep was able to squeeze into my budget an excellent bundle for the 200MHz model, plus mixed signal and the options bundle of low-speed serial decoders (I2C, SPI, UART, etc), automotive decoders (CAN, LIN), arb gen, and bode plotting. It’s almost certainly fundamentally overkill for what I predict to need, but the combination of a modern platform (deep memory, big, high res screen, broad feature set) AND a high waveform rate is ultimately what sold me, especially given the outstanding specs it has in basically every respect.It was a hard choice, since every scope had something to like: the Tek MDO34 grew on me a bit, thanks to a few thoughtful little touches (like the dual multipurpose knobs and top-notch build quality and industrial design; the LeCroys share the nice UI with their big brothers and have a phenomenal set of tools; the Keysight has a nice feature set and phenomenally responsive UI. But the Keysight and Tek MDO34 are based on kinda dated technology, which is visible at times. The Sigle… err, LeCroy models, the Tek MSO24, and R&S RTB2 and RTM3 clearly push their CPUs to their very limits, so UI responsiveness and some features suffer as a consequence.FYI, the R&S rep mentioned that the MXO4 is just the first of their next-gen scopes. The MXO5 is already on the horizon, but he mentioned that the other models are expected to be transitioned to it, too, over the next few years, likely as the MXO3, MXO6, etc. and that those should have the superior UI performance.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 10:01:52 pm
content: Thanks for the update. Just a question though: in your opinion, is the user interface on the R&S MXO4 better compared to the R&S RTM3004? I guess the answer is yes given your choice but I hope you can eloborate on the details a little bit as you have hands-on experience with both.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 10:16:29 pm
content: Ah, MX04...Nice.QuoteThere are no hardware differences between 200Mhz and 1.5Ghz, you can buy software upgrades up to the top bandwith.Or do it in another way when warranty has expired.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 11:18:55 pm
content: MXO4 is a good modern purchase at sub10k if you can get bundled with the things/options you gonna use, otherwise, it gets expensive very fast.Thx for the update.. always interesting to sense wiggle room (options) from scope manufacturers on relatively new models around their MSRP, and see scope vendors dropping loan units left & right to land the 10k purchase from an institution.Very nice modern scope, no doubt.. one envious puppy here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2023, 03:32:52 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 16, 2023, 09:27:22 pmNice!QuoteNot surprising, leverage the new ASIC. Keysight have gotten 13 years out of the Megazoom IV.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2023, 03:41:52 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 16, 2023, 09:27:22 pmThat was one of the surprising things about the new(ish) Tek 5/4/3/2 series. Awesome standardisation across the UI and other things, but still rather slow scopes. They have enough differentiation though to be competitive in the corporate world.Not a peep out of Keysight on the Megazoom V or whatever they will call it. I do wonder if they are re-evaluating things after the R&S MXO release?The previous Megazoom releases were about 8 years apart, now it's coming up on 13 years...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 07:39:14 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2023, 10:01:52 pmI think the RTM3 is a tad easier to use: I think some of the menu options are grouped a bit better. But the RTM3’s CPU simply isn’t up to the task of keeping that UI nice and fluid (for example when scrolling), and the lower screen resolution means scrolling is needed on it. The MXO 4’s customizable toolbar is, IMHO, slightly indicative of room for improvement, which I hope they do over the years.The MXO 4’s flexibility in screen layout also gives you more rope to hang yourself with. But that’s a fair trade off for being able to tile the screen at will, including tabbed viewsof the same signals configured differently.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 07:55:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 17, 2023, 03:41:52 amYeah, the consistency is nice. I’m a bit disappointed at how so many scopes are slow these days. The first DSO I ever used was the venerable DS1054Z, and then Keysight (after which that generation of Rigol scopes is clearly modeled), and I didn’t realize how spoiled I was in terms of responsiveness and display update rate (which is the other aspect of slowness that gets overlooked, after waveform update rate).As for consistency, IMHO LeCroy is the most consistent, in that it’s essentially the identical UI across all their scopes (with the possible exception of the entry-level T3D series). If I’m reading between the lines correctly (because of how one of the remote control APIs is deeply entwined with Windows), it’s actually basically the same code on all of them, running either on Windows CE or “real” Windows.Quote from: EEVblog on November 17, 2023, 03:41:52 amThe MDO3 grew on me a bit more than I expected. It’s definitely not the most powerful scope among the options, and there are many things that aren’t obvious until you remember “this UI is designed around double clicking”. But it also doesn’t get in your way too much, and the fit and finish of the hardware is impressive.Quote from: EEVblog on November 17, 2023, 03:41:52 amYeah, that’s a really good question.What I hope is that they (and everyone else) start hiring programmers with backgrounds in low-latency UIs, like gaming, audio production, and video editing. It really shouldn’t be that hard…The other thing I wonder is how much of the code can (and should?) be moved into GPUs, since that’s where a lot of a modern computer or SOC’s actual processing power is. I have a hunch that this is something a lot of non-game programmers have very little experience with.