low cost placer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pdp11
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 02:32:01 pm
content: Hello,I think that my problem is already discussed but I haven't found a recent thread.I'm looking for a low-cost pick and place for my dungeon.I'm now using often 0402 passives and 0.5mm pitch qfn.On my smaller bord is not a problem to pose by hand (with microscope), but on bigger board I'm too slow:The solder paste is dried at the end of the placement if my board uses more than 100-120 components.I found a lot of projects:Liteplacer,Microsmt pnpV3,Lumenpnp,All of them are priced similar (~1500-1700€)Do you have any experience with any of those machines, or others similars?I don't need any series production, I never assembly more than 2-3 boards.500 components per hour is fine for me.Or is better to store more gold and buy a chinese machine as TVM802A?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 05:19:38 pm
content: Well, for 0402 and 0.5mm lead pitch, you need accurate alignment. Probably, 0.1mm absolute accuracy would be required to get the 0.5mm pitch parts to reflow without bridges forming. The solder paste should not dry out in just a few hours, I use the GC10 it is great stuff and will reflow fine even if left for hours - I have even been stuck and did the reflow the NEXT DAY just fine. I have some REAL doubts these cheap machines can do the required accuracy and repeatability for these parts. I have a $150K Quad QSA30A with flying vision and it is JUST barely able to do 0.5mm pitch FPGAs.Jon

author: pdp11
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 09:10:32 am
content: Thank you jmelson,I've already seen some board placed with a low cost qihe placer, and 0402 are well placed.I don't need an 13000 cph machine, 300 cph are good for me.But low cost qihe are out of budget for me.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 01:30:38 am
content: Quote from: pdp11 on February 21, 2023, 09:10:32 amWell, of COURSE, my $150K machine did not cost ME that much! I got it at auction for $500, but then add in shipping, repairs, feeders, etc. and it starts to add up. And, while there are pretty wild claims of machine speed, I don't get anywhere NEAR what is claimed, but I'm quite happy to get over 4000 (REAL) CPH with it. Although there are some software quirks on it, it is a true production machine, and pretty much does what it is supposed to do.Jon

author: doppelgrau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 12:00:24 am
content: I bought a used (and a bit modified) liteplacer. use 0603 for passives but also 0.5mm qfn with success.But as Software I run OpenPNP. Took only a short look on the Liteplacer software an then decided to go OpenPNP.

author: pdp11
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 10:55:56 pm
content: thank you doppelgrau,I'm looking for chinese kit as Microsmt pnpV3or this:https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005004357214373.html?srcSns=sns_Copy&spreadType=socialShare&bizType=ProductDetail&social_params=20836957995&aff_fcid=75b229a9f67f4ac9a9f05d0bc5bfbc87-1677192889517-00864-_mM75Je2&tt=MG&aff_fsk=_mM75Je2&aff_platform=default&sk=_mM75Je2&aff_trace_key=75b229a9f67f4ac9a9f05d0bc5bfbc87-1677192889517-00864-_mM75Je2&shareId=20836957995&businessType=ProductDetail&platform=AE&terminal_id=dd960c2d3c7443809411c870810b51de&afSmartRedirect=y&gatewayAdapt=4itemAdaptSomeone offered me an used Microsmt pnpV2 for a little price.

author: doppelgrau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 12:23:05 am
content: That link doesn't work for me.But what I found from a quick google search I'd say make sure you will get enough usable table space. the really usable space where both nozzles can reach seems a bit small, especially after removing the space for camera and the pcb there is not so much space for many feeders on the table. (If you primarily want to use reel-feeders, that might be ok).https://www.formann.de/2021/03/pick-place-6-n-halbwegs-fertig/A picture of mine, but with the HeapFeeder quite slow.

author: level6
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 06:04:07 am
content: I have a LitePlacer. The LitePlacer is supposed to be able to place 0402, but it would need to be well tuned to place 0402 consistently. The LitePlacer is fine for 0603 and I have done some testing on 0403, as I have an upcoming project that uses 0402. In my testing, the 0402 placed fine.You'll want to use OpenPnP with the LitePlacer which requires a firmware update, and some other configuration changes to the controller board (TinyG) settings. The LitePlacer software is okay, and useful for getting the machine intially setup, but OpenPnP is a lot better, especially with computer vision and feeders.The major problem with any of these benchtop systems is reliable feeders and this becomes even more important with 0402. The LitePlacer does not come with feeders, and you will have to make your own strip feeders or make some of the semi-automatic or automatic feeders that are supported by OpenPnp.

author: pdp11
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 09:04:19 am
content: Thankyou level6,@doppelgrau,Try with this link:https://a.aliexpress.com/_mM75Je2It'a a openpnp comunity guy that has shared some information on this machine.

author: pdp11
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 01:01:40 pm
content: Another low cost kit from chinahttps://pandaplacer.com/index.html#form5-x

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 09:48:21 am
content: I would buy a 2nd hand Japanese machine out of Asia , or USA - there are plenty of good machines been given away.I would not bother with ANY chinese machine. The hardware can be good (Kayo) but the software is all CRAP. real crap, and their attitude to software is crap. It's garbage and if you want to place 0402 and QFN reliably, you need it to work. Chinese machines are pretty much all sh1t.I think the Kayo is OK for OpenPNP- but I dont know anyone who has done it. (I wrote my own SW, reverse engineered the commands and they then gave me all the commands )Really ANYTHING--- no matter HOW MANY hours it has ,--- anything built this century --- is better than anything you will buy in china. and you can fit in your garage.Like a Yamaha YVL88ii (also called Phillips/Assembleon Emerald ) (can place anything) etc. you could get a refurbished one out of Asia for less than 8000USD plus something like 3000 to ship it. (I can give you contacts). OR you can get these machines for moving cost out of the USA.....you need lots of air.but not too much power < 750W continuous (3phase you can make with a 3 phase UPS)With OPENPNP some of those Chinese PNPs can be OK but I would not go for a belt machine for anything smaller than 0603 and 0.8mm pitch QFP.I bought a Hanwha Samsung SM482+ in the end (new) and bought a 20 tray auto feeder used out of Asia for it.-glen

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 09:03:01 pm
content: Well a belt placer is just fine and can easily handle 0201, but you have to enter a little bit control theory.Linear encoders aren't that expensive, stick them onto the gantry and take the position from that. You can even get a nice index from them they will make the accuracy pretty good.Even ASM is using belts in some pick and place machines.My background is CNC machining, and pick and place machines are just a subset of that.I have my own software so I can only complain about myself if something is not implemented.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 11:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: MR on March 08, 2023, 09:03:01 pmI don't think any current ASM machine is using belts, and take a look at the belts used on something like a D2 launched like 15 years agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miy3HxlcwUg.Its on one axis and its a chonker. The other axis looks to be linear, the new machines are all linear. Our Essemtec uses belts and is rated for similar placement accuracy, they are also chonky and yes they are backed up by encoders. Essemtec wants users to replace them every 2 years, the new models.. linear. I'd say ASM was an outlier in belt usage then, even ball screw seems retro now for full size machines.Even allowing for the much lighter gantries and heads on desktop p&p the belts seem way too puny to be trusted to stay in spec, even so its feeding that will probably let you down. 0201 in paper tape will be much more forgiving than plastic tape, and 0201 size diodes for instance can be in very shallow pockets needing very smooth feeders.Tiny volumes, Tiny budget, norealneed - won't miss that $1800 too much, maybe try the Lumen it looks like less work than a liteplacer, and the other is a total unknown. However flawed I might consider the approach, it has grabbed some community interest which can only help and at least they are looking at feeders and improvements.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 02:26:39 am
content: Honestly what can you do wrong with belts and linear scales not much you get the absolute feedback and the PID will do the rest.Mechatronika is also using a belt they're not as big as the ASM ones but also work reliable (the belt part works fine - unlike the rest of the machine software, feeders). I wrote alternative software for the Mechatronika machine and it works absolutely reliable from a positioning point of view.The second machine I made is using ballscrews, even there there are differences in quality of the ballscrews. I also built my own CNC machine to be able to machine steel, you can also get things wrong with ballscrews overall.There are various types of ballscrews available ground ballscrews vs rolled ballscrews. Single nut or double nut. In the CNC world it's even more complicated since you really want a good positioning eg. if you want to mill a non-straight line or a circle. Many PNP machines even do non-coordinated motion (the simplest form of motion). The steel balls are also a topic (especially if you get cheap chinese ballscrews), and they wear I managed to damage them with tweezers only.Mid range machines are just fine with belts, certainly if you rely on motor encoders or simple count steps and have a flimsy gantry system things might be off a bit.Of course pricewise you can go up to the moon with various motion systems, eg. linear motors but they also very much depend on encoders.Do you know about magnetic linear scales? Have you ever seen them on gantry systems with a belt? That's where the accuracy comes from. 0201 is absolutely no problem with a belt system, even if you overstretch the belt itself or do a shitty mechanical installation (just like Mechatronika delivered to us).Things will just go crazy if you don't fix the pulley firm enough on the motor then the portal will start to oscillate (been there seen that -- Mechatronika delivered their pick and place system like that to us until we disassembled it and fixed it ourself but it took time to figure out where it is because they have so many issues, and all Mechatronika said we should have flown to them for training back then and those idiots just went silent).But things can be loose with any kind of machine, after all we don't live in a perfect world.Don't discredit belts for pick and place machines.PNP machines are just a subset of CNC machines and don't really need to be as rigid as CNC machines. After all you don't need a ferrari to drive 60km/h ~35 mp/h on the street. And the PID + linear scales will permanently try to fix mechanical offsets.Cheap linear scales are available up to a resolution with 5µm/1µm and the PID will not give up until the target is reached regardless of what the motor reports. Now if that is not enough?If you buy a PNP machine without scales just don't wonder that things might be off, it's the buyer who got it wrong for his projects then.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 08:50:49 am
content: ...and the number of cheap belt driven desktop p&ps with liner encoders is.... zero. The number of mid-low end chinese p&p in general regardless of drive system with encoders... you can count them on your fingers. Irrelevant to the OP, but I'm going to have to agree with glenn, once you step up from the entry level, avoid the belts unless your machine is well specified and NOT Chinese. Of course once you do that you won't find many belt driven machines anyway.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 10:00:11 am
content: Well then I have to say you are pretty much wrong.https://www.orion-industry.com/fritsch/FRITSCH%20PLACE%20PRO.pdfJust because you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist.The other example as mentioned was Mechatronika.I'm using linear scales with my CNC as well (with glass scales). The extraordinary cost for 5µm was like 200$If you buy a Haas CNC they quote like 20.000$ for glass scales. The ballscrews (single nut) are following the glass scales.https://www.haascnc.com/productivity/product-options/ls-2.html

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2023, 11:42:04 am
content: Quote from: MR on March 09, 2023, 10:00:11 amYou've lost me, that's German, I'm not contesting belts can work, they work just fine on the Essemtec I use every day. I am saying as a class of machine a cheap belt driven desktop machine (which Fritsch is not- its €100k+ with feeders) FROM CHINA, is not well made and NEVER comes with encoders. Equally those higher end machine families that were belt driven are moving on, Mechatronika and Fritsch have both been selling the same machine(s) for ~15 years or more, they are both small fry and basically irrelevant with stagnant platforms and little innovation.Step up to Essemtec/Fritsch level and the machines are so expensive (new) you need a really GOOD reason to be choosing them and not a Hanwha/Yamaha/whatever which depending on model can be a very similar price. They are not cheap/affordable machines, they are compact with some quirky setup options that mean they make sense in certain scenarios. In our case, one machine where we would need two of the alternatives.

author: PCBprototyping
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2023, 01:55:25 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on March 09, 2023, 11:42:04 amAre you sure, you're familiar with Chinese desktop pnp machines? Tronstol E1 has position feedback and it's very precise, reliable placement of 0201 and with some limitations 01005 also.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 12:41:41 am
content: "Tronstol E1 has position feedback and it's very precise, reliable placement of 0201 and with some limitations 01005 also."claimed or verified ?All the chinese machines claim 0402 but reality is the yield is low once you try all the different colours, shapes, sizes, shinyness of end terminals etc.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 10:33:33 am
content: They must have an amazing stable feeders for 0201 and smaller. With my Universal gold plus feeders if they are a bit beaten up the have trouble with perfectly feeding some of the tiny stuff. Mine mostly have a few million picks so some are a little worn.

author: PCBprototyping
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 03:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: glenenglish on March 11, 2023, 12:41:41 amVerified many times, results attached. It uses laser centering(curtain of beams), so component acts as a physical object inside the curtain and therefore does not rely on image recognition algorithms and quality of camera.Machine has drag feeders and if you set them in right order - center of the holefirst+feed onceto self adjust the tape to the needle andthenset the center of the pocket, it will be spot on every time. It's up to machine precision, not feeder and machine is precise enough to repeatably come to the same XY coordinate.It even has pocket recognition, so you don't need to readjust the centers, when you replace the feeder bank.

author: girts
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 02:35:04 am
content: Quote from: PCBprototyping on March 11, 2023, 03:44:51 pmAs usually, we see some "demo" boards, not real job and screens from production run.For sure, Google translate hasn't option for translate from "what Chinese seller promises" to "what device actually does".According to practice (based on all purchases from China) - if it is claimed for 0201, it does 0603.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 09:22:57 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on March 11, 2023, 12:41:41 amMy Chinese HWGC machine works well and consistently on 0402 and 0201. I usually use them on electrical feeder rather than the pneumatic CL feeder when doing this. And usually visual recognition tweaking is only needed on odd components like modules made of PCB substrates due to the imperfection of the edges of these type of components.

author: qihe_kim
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2023, 05:05:19 am
content: Attention pleaseAll friendsMaybe you are a customer of Qihe SMT machine, or maybe you will consider buying in the futureI hope these sharing can be useful to you, please feel free to contact usQhsmt software update linkhttps://www.qhsmt.com/support/Qihe Product Centerhttps://www.qhsmt.com/porducts/The news of Qihehttps://www.qhsmt.com/blog/In addition, share some customer cases about our latest exhibitions and latest modelsQM81 modelhttps://www.qhsmt.com/2022/09/11/smt-pick-and-place-machine-qm81-fully-automatic-smt-line-applied-to-smart-wearable-device-prototyping-pcbs-and-mass-production/QM81 modelhttps://www.qhsmt.com/2022/09/03/smt-pick-and-place-machine-customer-sharing-qm81-fully-automatic-smt-line-applied-to-prototyping-pcbs-and-led-lamps/QM62 modelhttps://www.qhsmt.com/2022/12/25/qm62-automatic-pick-and-place-machine-smt-setup-pnp-automatic-production-line-operation-video-smt-pick-and-place-machine/QM61 modelhttps://www.qhsmt.com/2022/11/10/smt-pick-and-place-machine-qm61-smt-line-video-sharing/TVM926S modelhttps://www.qhsmt.com/2023/05/03/ball-lamp-bead-led-producing-case-by-fully-automatic-led-line-tvm926s-4-heads-pick-and-place-machine/

author: Loky22
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 10, 2023, 04:44:48 pm
content: HW is the bestHW is the best chinese machines but it can't be considered cheapI know but 10k for smaller pnp for me are not a few for prototypes, 200kg is heavy .802, zb3245tss, yy1 is for home prototype very small.E1 aren't cheaper pnp look same neoden but aren't like HWSo low cost placer is 802A,B,Bx B plus price is 3 to 4k , zb3245tss etc .here see a people speak good of yy1 , same zb3245tss, 802 too.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2023, 07:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: pdp11 on February 24, 2023, 01:01:40 pmI ordered one up to play with. I can already see optimizations that can increase CHP such as moving the UP looking camera so the nozzles don't have to move down to get into focus. It actually looks like the camera is mounted low on purpose, which is curious. The feeders appear to be dumb servo driven feeders, so upgradable with other OpenPnP feeders most likely. The firmware is Marlin (I'm very familiar with Marlin) and obviously OpenPnP, so all good news there.Anyway, for $850 shipped, I'll give it a try. If nothing, I'll put in on cap placing duty.

author: DeepLink
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 10:31:42 am
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on May 12, 2023, 07:00:49 pmHave you received it yet?Would like to hear you experience/Hans J

author: jshtech
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 04:24:07 am
content: We are interested in TVM926s model. There are two queries:1. Does this machine available with Ground Ball Screw for X and Y movement?2. What is the Operating System of the machine. We are looking for latest Windows 11 operating system.Regards

author: Skree
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 02:39:24 am
content: About to do the same! How's your experience been thus far assuming it's arrived and you've had time to work on it?

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 05:23:43 am
content: Quote from: jshtech on July 19, 2023, 04:24:07 amit has ballscrews it seems, when zooming in I'd say they are rolled but not sure (2 squeezed lines on the crest next to each other are a good indicator for rolled ballscrews).

author: CrisErving
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 06:10:16 am
content: (Excuse me for posting in multiple forums... I found this one later, and it appears to be a more suitable forum)I'm looking at a few machines in the ~$3000 or below range. I'm looking for a tool to mount under 20 parts on several different board designs, in some cases it's only a few parts that are 0.65mm pitch and I just don't want futz around with doing it by hand. These are generally going to be done one board at a time in batches of 20-100, speed is not as important as accuracy and ease of use. The Pandaplacer has almost no documentation, so that's out. The TornadoSMT V2 looks really flimsy. I looked really hard at the LumenPNP, but it just doesn't look like the specs are very good for the money (it it was closer to $1000 I might be a little more inclined to go that way). The SMT802A variants all look reasonably decent, as does the Neodyn YY1 (which has more feeder slots). So, what is the consensus out there for the SMT802A vs. the Neodyn YY1?

author: lutkeveld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 08:29:04 am
content: Why does the TornadoSMT V2 look flimsy to you?Looks quite solid to me.

author: CrisErving
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 06:24:07 pm
content: It looks like the base and the gantry parts on the Tornado SMT V2 are 3D printed. I could be wrong... but there is so little documentation on this machine that I'd be very hesitant to buy one. It looks like you have to actually buy one to see the documentation... and I'm not willing to gamble $2000. At least the LitePlacer and the LumenPNP are well documented, and so are the Chinese machines (more or less).