JBC or ERSA? Mini-review: demoing a JBC system but not convinced. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 01:36:40 am
content: Hey everyone,First off I'd like to say that I've read every soldering iron comparison thread on here - twice. However many are old and the tech has shifted, or they don't address specific things that I'm interested in. This is also a semi-review but what I'd like to get out of this is a comparison by someone who has used both (modern) ERSA and JBC gear. I'm particularly interested in tip wetting and performance of the ERSA.With that said, I'm gearing up to drop some serious coin on a soldering setup. Or - preferably - my client will agree to it as part of our build-out. I'm currently demoing a JBC system but for the eye-watering price there are a number of things that are not impressing me. I'll get to that, and to why I'm considering ERSA. I've narrowed down to JBC and Ersa, not interested in Metcal or Hakko. I would be open to Weller but there are a few things I'm looking for that they don't have.This is also an opportunity for anyone interested in this JBC stuff to ask me about it since I've got it all for a period of time.Here's the stuff I'm demoing:4-tool stationDR560 desoldering tool + electric desoldering pump245 nitrogen soldering handpiecePA120 tweezersNitrogen generator + flow regulatorPHS-1B IR preheater + PCB holderThe total price for all this is pushing $7k. Not cheap, but I'm at a place where it's becoming a real setback to not have access to these tools. JBC also gives a fairly generous discount if you go back and forth with their sales folks.The contender ERSA station is this one:https://www.tequipment.net/Ersa/i-CON-VARIO-4-KIT-4-115v/Desoldering-Equipment/Rework-Stations/Getting to the point, my absolute #1 complaint about the JBC stuff is the tip wetting. I feel like I am now having to devote serious attention to the tips, constantly tinning and wiping and tinning to make sure everything is OK, where as before with my Weller WP80 I never really had to think about it. Give it a wipe and a quick tin and you're good. The JBC tips seem to start oxidizing almost immediately. I did an informal comparison where I wiped the tip on a damp sponge (I have brass also) to fully clean it, let it sit for 10 seconds at temperature, and then tin with solder. Obviously this is not ideal but for test purposes appropriate IMHO. With the Weller this was no problem, the tip takes up solder immediately and it wets very well and spreads across the tip even if it's hot and dry for minutes. With the JBC? It wets a tiny portion and then I have to roll the tip around, poking solder into every little dry spot before it wets fully. And this waswithnitrogen on the JBC! Even if I don't wait, the tip starts to discolor very quickly and generally just give me grief. I've got a 10 year old Weller WD1 with the WP80 iron and it has performed beautifully. I'm not running at insane temperatures either, the test goes the same way whether I'm at 275C or 350C.This is a real problem because poor tip wetting leads to frustrating soldering especially when you're trying to remove bridges or drag-solder and the solder just doesn't wick back onto the tip. Sure you could tin the hell out of it but then you're just going to create more bridges rather than less. This is my main reason to look into ERSA as I hear their tip quality and wetting ability is second to none. I just can't square the idea of paying so much for tips and having them be anything less than the best. A $4 Weller tip should not outperform a $50 JBC tip in this regard, but it does.Quick thoughts on the rest of the JBC setup:- I like the 4-tool station. It's nice, sturdy, lots of setup options, and I like that all the JBC stuff is stackable. Physical buttons would be nice.- The nitrogen generator rates a solid "meh." Try as I might I did notice any appreciable difference. From the literature I have seen you need to get down to <500ppm of O2 (99.95% purity) to get the benefits of nitrogen soldering, and these nitrogen generators just can't do it at the flowrates necessary for soldering. The generators thatcando it are an order of magnitude more expensive. That leaves one option: high pressure N2 bottles. At 1-2 SLPM a 300 cubic foot bottle will last 70-140 hours, which to me will average a few months of soldering. Not a bad deal IMHO, and the purity is far better than one of these generators. I will say that so far pre-heating makes aFARgreater difference than the nitrogen in terms of clean drag soldering, eliminating icicles on lead-free stuff, etc...- The desoldering gun is quite nice. Pretty forceful. Never used a powered one before but I am impressed, it even cleans SMD pads just as well as wick which I wasn't expecting. I had to remove 40 pin headers from 20 PCBs and clearing out the PTHs took <10 seconds for each board. Way better than wick! The pump, on the other hand, is loud and annoying. If you have compressed air definitely get the pneumatic pump as it's less annoying and much more powerful. That's the one I'll pick up if I keep this kit.- The nitrogen regulator works fine if you can get past paying $500 for a valve and flow meter. This is a perfect DIY candidate.- The tweezers are good in actual use, but I'm not impressed. The tips on mine required quite a bit of force to insert to the mark, to the point I'm worried about either damaging them ($80 per set!!) or worried about slipping and stabbing myself in the hand. To rotate them you have to unscrew the little grub screw on each and fiddle with them. Very tedious.There is also no adjustment if they happen to be out of alignment (not in the same plane). The JBC rep says they're about to release updated tweezers which address this.- The biggest problem with the tweezers is the terrible stand. I'll get a picture later, but the tweezers are held in the stand by a little lip which engages the plastic protrusion on the underside of the tweezers. They then rotate back until the sharp-edged metal on the stand hits the metal shaft on the tips. This mean that if you put any pressure on the top of the tweezers while in the stand, you will force the tips into that metal edge and damage them. They also wobble around in the stand and if you even think about bumping the cable the tweezers will fall out of the stand. I have a cramped desk and I'm knocking the damn things out constantly.- The IR preheater is something like $1700 with the PCB holder. It's a nice product, but for that price you can get aPace PH100which is much larger, no direct IR, more power, and a better interface. Which is probably what I'll do. Pics of the JBC:The stand is pretty nice but has a really stupid issue - the little black thumb screws have a hex head, and the stand comes with a little driver for them to tighten them down. On more than half of them the hex head is way too loosely toleranced and the driver just spins. This is such a dumb problem to have for a $1700 preheater. This alone makes me not want it because...seriously? The screws should be figured out.Functionally the pre-heater is pretty good. Not a huge fan of the direct IR as it's already burned some connectors on the bottom side, and this was with a thermocouple placed on the top (closest to heater) of the connector and covered with kapton. There is one more dealbreaker however, and it's this damn control dongle:Unlike the JBC tool controllers, this screen is angled straight up. It's matte, and the screen itself is low contrast and has a narrow viewing angle. Which means that the above is mostly what I see when I look at it. A reflection of my bench lighting. Hell nah. The buttons themselves are also pretty mushy, of the "wait did I actually press it?" variety. More like a cheap TV remote than what you'd expect from the buttons on the JBC stations.As for the ERSA station, here's what I like and don't like vs. the JBC:- The tweezers seem to be much better designed and more ergonomic.- The station accepts the 250W handpiece without needing another $1k station as with the JBC. That said I am intensely curious if anyone has ever managed to hit 100% power on even the regular JBC handpiece. I plunked the largest chisel I have into a cold solder pot and swished it around and I barely broke 30%.- The ERSA nitrogen attachment is cheap, doesn't require a different handpiece, and snaps on easily. It seems to center itself. The JBC on the other hand has this:The squishy ring goes into the handpiece. This has two side effects. One is that you can no longer pull the iron straight out, you have to pull it back a little bit and then lift it straight up, else the tool rest catches the nozzle and pulls it off. After years of developing muscle memory you will forget this. Constantly. Then you have to fish the hot nozzle out of the stand somehow. Two is that there is no indication that the nozzle is inserted. You just kind of mush it in there and hope it holds, and it's never centered the first time. It's free to wobble around that silicone ring and you have to look at it, push it towards the center, look again, push again from a different side, etc... until the nozzle is centered around the tip.- I don't like that the ERSA station has an electric desoldering pump with no pneumatic options. I also think the JBC desoldering gun is more ergonomic based on appearances, but without using the ERSA one I can't say. EDIT: The ERSA seems more smartly designed though. The JBC is a "straight through" design. There's the tip, then a glass tube which has a filter on the opposite end and a strip of metal twisted 180° in the center to keep molten solder from the filter. The problem here is that when desoldering large quantities of solder, the solder will build up on the leading edge of that metal strip and block air flow. You then have to remove the tube and bang it on the desk until the metal strip comes out. If it doesn't you need to push the whole thing out of the tube which also results in the filter coming out and rolling away somewhere. The ERSA uses a reversed flow design where the air changes direction inside the solder reservoir. The molten solder just flies back until it hits the silicone stopper, rather than building up and blocking airflow. I doubt from my experience so far that the JBC desoldering guncan do thiswithout getting clogged.- It comes with hot air. The JBC hot air looks very nice, but I feel that the ERSA hot air will suit me well for almost anything.- The tip changing. Let's talk about the much-praised JBC quick change tips for a second. Without building a custom rack, the JBC tip change is a two handed operation. Here's the process right now:1) Insert the tip into the stand.2) Hold the stand so it doesn't move while removing the tip.3) Find another tip and - with your hands, since there's nowhere else to put it, insert it into the iron.4) Push the tip into the table surface (ESD mat, no worries) to seat it.5) If you have to change back shortly after, carefully pick up the one you just removed from the stand without burning yourself and set it...somewhere. Repeat.The dream of one-handed, effortless tip changes remains elusive. The ERSA system honestly seems faster and more convenient. I thought the opposite until I got some real time in on the JBC. The ERSA stand can hold 4 tips easily and securely and you could make a custom holder for 20 of them in an hour.On the plus side the JBC does have more tip options but frankly it's an academic difference. ERSA has more than enough for any conceivable scenario. I have 10 JBC tips (borrowed from work) and I really only use 2 of them. I will say however that the specialized JBC tip for soldering thru-hole pins is awesome. The tip wetting still sucks but it heats the pin + pad immediately. Very nice for soldering lots of thru-hole components.If anyone is interested and/or I explained any of this poorly I can make a video going over it.The JBC system overall is pretty nice and I like it, but there are a lot of little annoyances that frankly should not exist. It's usually unreasonable to demand perfection but this is an insanely expensive system. I believe it's warranted. If anyone has made it this far and has used ERSA stuff I would really love to get your feedback on any of these points!For those who followed my other PCBA thread - fear not, things are moving along but at a glacial pace.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 02:10:46 am
content: Ersa is a real workhorse. Chisel tips are really hard to kill. 2.3 mm solder well tips which I use a lot lasted around 90k solder joints as much as I figured from quantity of boards assembled. But those were some connectors with nasty terminals. In the end I grinded through the tip as with file while drag soldering. Likely would last much more is soldering SMT ICs. The only tips I don't like are 0.2 and 0.4 mm cones, they also have some problems with solder wetting unlike bunch of other tips I have. Not so long time ago ersa made a special high thermal capacity 0.3 mm cone 0102PDLF03 (not 0102PDLF03L) which apparently is way better but I hadn't bought it as it's not widely available yet and buying it would cost me more in shipping than the tip costs itself.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 02:20:08 am
content: QuoteI did not have a chance to use those those Vario stations but ERSA CU 100 A standalone pump is a real beast of a vacuum pump.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 02:26:11 am
content: BTW on the picture on that link you provided I see old x-tool, which is strange. Although it should be supported there is newer x-tool vario, I think. I guess that's an old picture made when not all vario tools came out yet.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 02:27:53 am
content: That's weird, when I click the link it shows the new tool.EDIT: Maybe not. Isthisthe newer one?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 02:44:12 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on December 22, 2017, 02:27:53 amYes.BTW JBC preheater IMO does not look impressive at all. Pretty much like in jovy IR stations. Quiet thick, small area and likely slow to heat because of that semi transparent ceramic on top. PCB holder is pretty neat, though.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 04:13:46 am
content: I have ERSA i-con 2V (i-tool + chip tool vario), before i buy i also search about JCB and found some people with same problem with tips, they don't last much and with inproper care will kill tip fast, so looking at tip price that is not a good factor to me.I'm very happy with ERSA, tips are long lasting and if you forget to tin they will not die, the coating seens very good because even if you brass clean the tip you can see like a very tiny tin coat that prevent from oxidize, while i solder for long period sometimes i forgot to tin when put back on stand and tips still like new, instant grab solder, and yes chissel tips are awesome.The only thing i dislike and that can be solved quickly by ERSA is when you turn on station all tools will turn on too (except s-air, and other one that i can't renember), so i-tool, chip tool, power tool and other irons will auto heat, if you just one you can't work with both and most likely you only use one tool per session or maybe chip tool rarely, so you are wasting tips... Tool will enter into standy mode after your defined time, but for that you already waste electric power, tips, heater element, wearing and others.My suggestion to ERSA was a firmware moddification that allow you to choose the predefined tool to always heat up, and others only heat up when you grab it, so by default they can had station like now, all auto heat, but with a extra option in the menu they could put this and serve better the users. For me is a no sense to have 4 tools heating always, for people like me who turn station multiple times on/off during day is anyoing and i fell it's made on porpouse to waste tip life, this could be avoided with 20 or 30m of codding!Still i have made my modding and hack the ersa station to support individual switching, see here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ersa-i-con2v-(port-switch-hack)/msg1199653/#msg1199653(Right now the switch have color caps on it)Like wraper said conical tiny tips are useless, the performance sucks. 0.2, 0.3, 0.4mm and even 0.5 and long versions are just trash, they will wick solder up and not at tip, the heat and thermals are bad, other tips are OK, including 1mm conical that perform awesome.Also i got almost every tip includding the 0.3mm optimized version, for me it's cheap and very avaliable, and i can tell that works as advertized, they are good but not small enough to me, eg 01005 is tiny near that 0.3mm tip, i spoke with ersa about that and they agree to talk about a new smaller tip for that such components.@wraperamazon.desell that tip (0102PDLF03) cheap don't know if you can buy from there... Got mine from there because was cheaper and it was prime. Also you can get it fromersa-shoptoo.About chip tool vario i find it a bit weak... It burn my fingers with easily under a angle when i need to press the tweezers, the knob to set tweezers default position will lose it position as soon you set it and start use, only lock works well. In terms of soldering it feels weak, for me it's hard to remove a component without put a good amount of solder on each side first, so i use hot air more to desolder than this. Also as i work with microsoldering i don't find that usefull for my work. So i fell like i-tool is a Ferrari and chip tool a Opel. But thats my opinion, maybe i'm doing something wrong. But you will never go wrong with the i-tool. Chip tool is more usefull to desolder. Also my died pretty quickly, it start to show an error then i restart station and it work again. But after sometime it stop to work permanently, i contact ersa and returned the chip tool, they sent me a replacement very quickly, their note: Bad heat element and tips replaced, even with my new replacement i notice no difference from the faulty i had before in terms of performance. At least i found ERSA service very good and they not ignore you.About S-AIR tool is good just for small components that don't require alot of airlow, because that tool is tiny, but is perfect for soldering new stuff in, for large BGA and even medium BGA is useless. It have a button to start and stop the air/heat and a rotation knob to ajust airflow on the handle, which is great IMO.X-Tool Vario i never tried but it looks like a good instrument, let others come and say.Other good thing is that Vario 4 station will support all new tools and some old ones too, you can use very tools in it without buy other compatible station... The bad thing is that station use same power supply for all slots, so if it die all dies. If was me i would buy two ERSA Vario 2, or one i-con 2V (feed i-tool and chip tool) and one VARIO 2 (feed s-air and x-tool vario), you are spliting work so it will last longer, but i have to tell that Vario 4 put some respect and is pretty.Overall you will never go wrong with ERSA, the i-tool worth all the money and you will find it so pleasing to work with, and again tips are one of the best you can find plus they are cheap, about 8€ each normal/simple tip. Large wick tips are expensive but they work very well.Thermals on i-tool are very good!

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 04:34:00 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 22, 2017, 04:26:51 amTry i-tool HP, and put JBC on the bin while keep some cash on the pockethttp://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/tools-for-soldering-stations/produkt-details/i-tool-high-power.html

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 04:42:44 am
content: SVFeingold, you do realize that the hot air tool available for the Ersa Vario 4 is only 200W (same as Weller's HAP200)?If you're only removing SMD passives or cell phone sized IC's, you'll be fine.Anything else however, you'll very likely need a more powerful unit. JBC's are nice (JTSE-1QA @ 700W), but they're also quite expensive ($1439.68 from TEquipment, and it's NOT a kit, so no protectors/shields or extractors included*).I'd recommend a Quick 861DW instead (1kW unit that runs all of $275shippedfromPrime Distributing).Seriously, it's that good. Intuitive UI (similar to what you're used to with the WD1), so you'd have it's normal operations mastered within a few minutes. You'd really only need to read the manual to put it in calibration mode. Couple of nice bits besides it's performance & operation, is that the heating element is a cartridge, and the stand is separate from the main unit. Plenty of info on this unit here in the forum, and some YouTube videos as well.Here's one from Louis Rossmann:https://youtu.be/ChujyTV-HME* Their protectors and extractors are quite nice, and are the only commercially available products I'm aware of in this regard. Another method is to DIY your own from some malleable metal (i.e. rivet the seam is the easiest).In regard to the irons and desoldering tools, I've only had YouTube videos to check out Ersa's products in terms of functionality (and some discussions in the forum), but they're excellent from what I've seen & heard. And the tips are less expensive than JBC's. The newer X-Tool Vario is really nice, and easy to clean (,if you've not yet seen these).So perhaps Frankenstein an Ersa system for iron, HD iron if you need it, an X-Tool Vario desolder tool, and hot tweezers. Then combine this with the Pace you're looking at for a preheater, and the Quick 861DW for hot air. As per an N2 system, I'd skip it entirely. Decent solder that wets well with a good flux will be sufficient to get proper joints IME. So this ^ setup would not only do what you want, but cost less as well (both for the initial equipment as well as consumables/spares).For disclosure, bothwraperand I own a Quick 861, and are very pleased with them. He's had his longer, but I've had mine for 3+ years at this point with zero problems.Do note that for those of us requiring 110V input units, it will cause your lights to flicker (seeing it with CCFL and LED). The simplest way to solve this is run it on a dedicated circuit IMHO. This wasn't available to me however, and I resorted to running my LED strips on a linear PSU; problem solved (I've simply removed any CCFL's). Not terribly expensive to do either way, especially if you're doing the labor.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 05:01:32 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 22, 2017, 04:46:37 amHappens on 220V too, LED lights all the way

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 05:24:25 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 22, 2017, 04:46:37 amWasn't aware of this on 110V input models as they only draw half the current as the 861DW.Quote from: sn4k3 on December 22, 2017, 05:01:32 amSeems a bit odd as the Quick 861DW's don't seem to have this issue on 220V mains input according to their owners, as it only pulls half the current as it's 110V counterpart.Anyone have any ideas as to what's realistically going on here as it seems it's not purely a function of the current draw when the heating element is receiving power?Seems I got lucky with my solution of a linear supply for running my LED strip lights.BTW, the LED in the swing arm lamp flickers to this day, and have been under the impression a true online UPS would handle that (currently only have line-interactive units).

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 06:00:05 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on December 22, 2017, 05:24:25 amI'm not the only one with 220V version and light blink, even a Yellow LED lamp blink but i solve it by improve it own psu. White LED Bar always good...Switching 1kW maybe is doing that even with a line filter built in. Anyway for me not a problem as i use only LED now. But with old lamps are a pain.Running this machine with a dedicated line or UPS seens a bit overkill and expensive, better to upgrade to LEDs

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 06:29:56 am
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on December 22, 2017, 06:00:05 amGiven the LED's are flickering as well, upgrading/replacing PSU's would certainly be easy enough if you're able to for all of them. Unfortunately, the issue regarding LED's now are the ones that screw into light fixtures (PSU's in the bulb's housing, which is glued together*). In those cases, it seems that moving the 861DW to it's own dedicated circuit would solve the flickering lights issue entirely (BTW, they do contain EMI filters similar to the one in the photo).Now when you say old lamps, could you elaborate (i.e. older LED's, incandescent, ...)?And if it's older LED's, can you offer a clue or recommendation or two as to what to go for?(I'm after an LED spotlight @ 5000K for my swing arm lamps, and something suitable for the regular light fixture, preferably @ 5000K as well).TIA.*I've never had much luck opening these without wrecking them to the point they're no more than scrap.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 07:19:21 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on December 22, 2017, 06:29:56 amThat is what i use, LED Version.I have 5 lamps in my room:1 back fluorescent tube like the photo above 1 center incandescent  + 1 LED lamp1 White LED tube like the photo above at workbench1 Yellow LED tube like the photo above at workbench [Blinks not so hard as others, i solve this by place a capacitor outside the tube but hidden]1 fluorescent tube like the photo above at workbench When i'm at workbench i use only White + Yellow LED together, colors are more natural than if i only use the white led.Other leds do not blink, for example microscope led ring are always stable.I also meassure Mains Voltage, it variate alot, some 10 to 20v when quick is working. When i put quick on stand the main voltage get "constant" againRossman have a teardown video of the quick but is not usefull to solve anything.By old i mean the incandescent lights sorryAnd for LED tubes, the ones i buy at china store are better than the expensive ones i buy at a proper store. I have pay 5x more for a lamp that perform worse when quick is working (The yellow).If flicker is a problem a online UPS should handle that, but they are expensive and to feed 1kW is even worse...Other way to get rid is use a separate line just for quick and others.Flicker is not the problem to me, main voltage variation seens a worse problem that can cause problems to other equipement

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 07:53:35 am
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on December 22, 2017, 07:19:21 amAnd since installing a new circuit isn't feasible due to my home's construction, it's either fix PSU's for LED bulbs or an online UPS.I won't purchase a new online UPS (over $1k = too rich for me). So I've been looking into finding a used one that's fully functional at a decent price, but needs batteries (i.e. using it as an AC-DC-AC/back-to-back converter). I can make up the necessary pigtails and install decent batteries for it (i.e. Panasonic, CSB, or a few other brands that last) for half or less the cost of a new unit (looking at 1500VA units). Unit + 4 new batteries I can handle financially.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 08:28:55 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 22, 2017, 02:20:08 amI have Weller gear and for desoldering much prefer the pneumatic handpiece compared to the station with in-built pump. The downside was the cost of the compressor, air filters, cold pot/refrig air dryer, pipes/hoses & fittings, distribution, electrical, install etc. If you already have that all is well and good, otherwise stick to the units with a built in pump.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 11:19:32 am
content: Can you tell us a little about why you felt your Weller WD1 station wasn't adequate any more? I'm keen to learn about the possibilities and limitations of different pieces of gear.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 02:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on December 22, 2017, 04:13:46 amI have the same experience with JBC. The tips don't last very long which results in working with tips which don't take solder very well. I also second the remarks about JBC's SMD tweezers. They are too wobbly and because the tips wear out quickly you end up with a sub-par tool. OTOH I'm very happy with the Ersa chiptool I have. The tips are easy to exchange and have retaining rings so you only have to align the tips once and you can swap between them whenever you want. And ofcourse the tips have the usual life expectancy. I have been using Ersa for over a decade and I have not replaced a single tip nor do I have spares.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 06:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 22, 2017, 04:46:37 amMy Yihua 858D causes a slight flicker to my LED shop light over my bench. I do have a 957DW coming as a Christmas gift. If it flickers, it flickers. I am used to it already.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 06:48:29 pm
content: sn4k3, that is disappointing about all tools turning on at once. Pretty strange issue to have. The JBC station does not turn on any tools until you remove them from the holder. When you put them back it puts them to sleep and starts the hibernation timer.I've never liked conical tips for the reasons you describe. I'm curious about your experience with the chip tool vario (I assume you meanthis oneand not the lower powered one). I found the JBC tweezers to be pretty good, and they have the same power output as the ERSA ones with similarly located heaters close to the tips. Interestingly the tips are one area ERSA seems to win - they have more variety for the tweezers than JBC.blueskullI'm not sold on nitrogen yet. I was primarily hoping to achieve lower temperature wetting which will help with pins/pads attached to higher thermal masses, reduced bridging as seen in the ERSA demo below, and reduced icicle formation with LF solder. So far I haven't seen those things, but I also don't have very pure N2 as I mentioned. I'll have nitrogen in the new lab for other reasons so I'm still interested to try it.I agree that for most stuff I don't think it's necessary. I've figured out that I kinda hate SAC305 (Kester) but I have both Kester KL100D and a roll of SN100C from AIM and those are far superior IMHO. Very similar to regular old lead solder in terms of usability. That combined with discovering Loctite GC10 (after trying at least 5 other lead-free pastes) has drastically reduced the amount of rework I need to do.nanofrogI do realize it's lower power. Mostly I would use it for passives and smaller components. The JBC hot air looks awesome, I like the extractors, the shrouds, and that you can use both the high power and precision hot air handles with one station (interchangeable). It's just that I have no immediate use for it and there is other equipment I need first. Janelonline has the lowest prices on JBC gear I've seen, although the discount JBC offered is even less than that. So you can probably get the full hot air kit for ~$1700. Another thing I like about the JCB hot air is that it has a vac port and a pedal input, so you can use it for picking up and placing SMD stuff.I'll check out the Quick hot air, looks pretty nice!blacksheeplogic, the Weller station looks like a beast. 30LPM air flow, that's 2x the JBC. That's the easiest thing to modify however. I feel pretty confident I can replace the electric pump in the ERSA system with a venturi pump in an afternoon.Mr. Scrammostly it came down to heat transfer. I've been working on more and more boards with multiple planes and there are some things the Weller just couldn't do. Getting good hole fill on the tab of a metal RJ45 housing to a that's connected to 4 ground planes just wasn't happening, thermal reliefs or not. Granted, the JBCalsocan't do this, but it gets a little further and gets there faster. The variety of tip geometry on the JBC stuff appealed to me.This tipmakes short work of most through-hole pins. Another example, soldering 1.5mm pins of an AC/DC converter (PCB mounted) to 2 thermally relieved ground planes took a couple seconds longer on the Weller than the JBC. If you have to get 50 time-critical boards out the door then that starts to make a big difference at the end of the day.I also preferred the quicker tip change and wasn't a huge of how the Weller tips used to be mounted. If you look at the LT series tip you have the flat back of the tip contacting the flat front of the heating element. Well, if the back of that tip gets damaged, dirty, or oxidized, your heat transfer goes way down. It was rare that it became a real issue though. Overall the Weller station and iron have performed beautifully and continue to do so. Once I figured out that the WP80 stand has 3 spaces for extra tips +barrels, I was an even bigger fan. Pretty much the same system as the ERSA, and a lot easier to swap out than tapping the thing on the table til the hot tip falls out.I really don't like the Weller tweezers, but overall I still am very fond of Weller despite the issues they've had. Some of their stuff is just better thought out.Speaking of heat transfer, however, using the JBC has really driven home just how impossible it is to put even 80W of heat into most PCB joints. It doesn't matter which tip you use, you are never going to be able to actually put 80W (Weller) or 140W (JBC) into a through-hole pin, or SMD pad. There just isn't enough heat transfer for the iron to ever need to use that much power. Even on heavy ground planes with large (middle of the JBC range) tips, the thing barely saw 20% power.After looking at the ERSA tip range, I take back what I said about them being essentially equivalent to JBC. JBCdoeshave a lot of useful tip geometries. The through-hole specific one I linked above is really great, it is noticeably faster especially when you're soldering rows of headers. If they could just figure out better tip metallurgy that would seal the deal for sure. Having said that I've got PCBs + a complete BOM for the Universal soldering iron sitting around, even if I go with ERSA I can just grab a JBC handle and a few of the esoteric tips for much less $$$.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 10:12:18 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on December 22, 2017, 06:48:29 pmFound the higher power modelJBC JTSE-1Akit on TEquipment ($1750.52). If you're not aware, I've found calling will usually get you better pricing on higher ticket items, regardless of brand.Do note that the Quick 861DW doesn't have a vacuum port, but you can use a separate vacuum tweezer. See the following examples:Hakko 394-01 Vacuum Pick-Up ToolVirtual Industries(multiple models, including some that can use a foot switch).FWIW, I use a Virtual Industries modelTV-1000. FWIW, I find the release button on handle quite easy to use. They also offer theTV-1500 Elite with Foot Switchif you're dead set on the foot switch.

author: Safar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 09:09:53 am
content: Just to note: if I remember, some 2 channels ERSA Vario do not have vacuum pump (in set without vac tool).Of course 4 channels fully equipped.And should to tell about ERSA vario tweezers that it is very comfortable device, for me at least. I set up tips at some angle and now I prefer tweezers to air gun for both soldering/unsoldering.Agreed that turning on all instruments together is not good but I set up short sleep delay and lowest sleep temp. As all instruments heated very quickly it is not big problem to temp waking up.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 12:30:13 pm
content: I used nitrogen with a professional Leister soldering gun in a production environment (cellphone factory) and they're really really good (the soldering gun that is).All of our semi-automatic BGA rework stations also used nitrogen.However, I think that they are completely unnecessary outside of a production environment. The reasons we used it in production was because we needed to fulfil 6 sigma (and of course the nitrogen was already being used in the production reflow ovens). There are so many ways to f*ck up soldering before you even need to start worrying about oxidation and moisture levels in the air that your regular Hakko or Aoyue uses...But I really wonder if anything but high quality purpose-built tools are any good, because if I had identified that I have quality issues due to oxidation then I would get a proper large gas cylinder or a couple of smaller ones ( I don't know the sizes, 50 litre is around 77kg so maybe 10 or 20 litre size)

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 07:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: Safar on December 23, 2017, 09:09:53 amYes that's true. Vario 2 all have same ports but the VAC port is dummy in some models. To get the VAC port working you need to buy the version with the X-Tool Vario (0ICV2000AXV)A good combo can be: 0ICV2000AXV + 0IC2200VC. A tiny cheaper than 0ICV4000AICXV and you will split into two machines, two PSU, more durability, better if some station broken you always have the other, while if vario 4 broken you can't do nothing than wait...Can you post some pics about your ERSA vario tweezers setup? And how you use it?

author: Safar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 02:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on December 23, 2017, 07:37:16 pmOf course, but after 26 of Dec as I just not at home.But nothing secret here.I use tips like in attached pic (just found pic in web, not sure that is main exactly) and set both in ~30..40° angle, so the flat end sections are parallel on both tips. It hold well any two pole smd from 0402 (do not try 0201 as it scary small for my eyes), but of course I use regular tweezers for removing smd from tips while desoldering.I have also angle tips with small cones but it is not so good for me at least.Edit: add photo. Angle not like I described:

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 05:40:44 pm
content: Thank you for showing.My config is like yoursBut when i use like this angle, it start to burn my fingers:

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 07:40:02 pm
content: Why does it burn your fingers? Those metal collars get hot?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 07:56:03 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on December 26, 2017, 07:40:02 pmHot air goes upwards.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 11:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2017, 07:56:03 pmThats right, i find it hard to press if i go upper, so i press at very bottom of the handle

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 08:49:26 am
content: QuoteTS: With that budget, Did you look at Pace ? I have an old MBT250, (the black one) I use it for professional repairwork, not production. I bought it something like 10 years ago used ex military. Just because it had the (SX70) desolder iron and was cheap. My main rig was a WS81, and I still like that a lot. Also because it is analog. Just turn a knob, no fancy menus.But the Pace turned out to be so easy to use and performed great. All the theoretical downsides turned out to be no issue.Tip wetting is no problem. Besides that, they are cheap and last a long time. Tips have a hard life here because I do a lot of industrial repair (conformal coatings, old tin, dirt etc) Wetting has never been a problem. If I abused a tip to much I use Weller tip-reactivator. I bought that for my DIY custom tips (If I need a very special shape I make sometimes tips from brass)Never had problems with not enough power. I have it standard at 320 and maybe once a month I set it at 370, I can do much more.After wasting 900 euros on a Metcal I upgraded my Pace with a new solder handpiece (the big one because I like my Weller for the microstuff) Not really needed but I wanted a new one because the old one had become very dirty and it had not yet the silicon wire. And a new SX-100 with the tips that are trumpet like on the reservoir side, and that one sucks, but in the good wayIt has no problems doing what Esra did in that video. I desolder a lot, never counted it but I think 50 to 100 joints a day and sometimes much more.In 1 year my 2 Metcal pumps used 3 membrames, I cleaned the Pace pump 2 times in 10 years and both times it was not really needed. Not even signs of wear.The stands are fine, I toss the handpieces in and grab them without looking. Tip changes with a screw and Pace tweezer like tiptool sounds like something from the dark ages but it simply works. No problem in all those years. I switch tips not much, something like 2 times a day for the solder handpiece but something like 5 to 10x a day for the SX-100. They have great working cardboard reservoirs for the SX100 but I use the glass one (that comes also standard) Works good enough for me. I clean it so often it became a routine and 1 minute of time.They still sell parts for my MBT. When I was in doubt between a JBS or a new Pace (not because my Pace had problems, just because it was old and the SX-70 worn. I did not know there was a SX100 for my station. After the 900 euro Metcal disaster I contacted Pace for advise. He told me the SX100 was worth the money (and he was right) but no need to buy a new station or a new pump. He also advised me in several mails about the best tips for me. I bought those too and he was right again.It not fancy looking gear with nice displays, it is just build like a brick to last forever and do it's job as easy as possible for the user.

author: Safar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 02:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on December 26, 2017, 05:40:44 pmFor me personally more comfortable this way:

author: Safar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 02:33:51 pm
content: And I don't like one thing. Instrument part of stands make from ceramics (except vac tool). It is good for stand, but don't for tools:

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 03:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: Safar on December 27, 2017, 02:33:51 pmThat's why I'm using older version of stand which is rubber only, without ceramic insert. Although I have a new holder somewhere in the box.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 03:11:40 pm
content: QuoteThat's fancy right there !

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 07:09:04 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2017, 07:56:03 pmI assumed he meant the handpiece gets hot just from poor insulation. The updraft I don't have a huge problem with, I haven't really noticed it too much on the JBC tweezers with similar geometry. If those metal collars DO get very hot though, being in contact with the tips, that would certainly make the problem worse.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 07:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on December 27, 2017, 07:09:04 pmFWIW, the JBC tweezer tips have the heating element down near the tips, so they shouldn't be very not near where your fingers operate the tool. And though I've not used them, I'd suspect that Ersa's tweezers would keep the heat down towards the tips as well in terms of where the heat is applied to the tips.That said, I've not used them so I've no idea as per convection (i.e. hot air rising from the tips).Wish I could offer more info (1st hand experience).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 08:29:19 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on December 27, 2017, 07:09:04 pmBecause of very short tip to grip distance which is a huge advantage BTW, hot air going up may become an issue if you hold it vertically. If you like to hold it this (unintended) way, wearing ESD gloves will make it not noticeable.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 07:05:18 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on December 22, 2017, 01:36:40 amYou absolutely nailed it ! I have same experience and this was the exact reason I said a few times I do not recommend JBC.QuoteThis is another one with JBC I confirm is very annoying.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 02:32:40 am
content: After reading this thread and a dozen others, it seems that the JBC is a reasonable choice for users that need a lot of flexibility. The comments about tip wetting are the part that would frustrate me the most. I don't solder an enormous amount, but when I do it's a game of speed. Needing to go from 0201, to a big inductor, to 12AWG through hole on a big ground plane demands flexibility and I really like the tip choices from JBC.Perhaps the demo method is truly the best way to go choose.Short and misplld from my mobile......

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 06:50:35 pm
content: Regarding tip wetting, there is one advantage to the wetting characteristics of the JBC iron.Background: moving from cheap Velleman station to a Hakko, I went the opposite direction. I had to get used to a tip that sucks up solder... everywhere, all the time.With a "JBC" type tip, you can wet the parts you want to use, and the solder stays there. At least that is how I used my Velleman iron. So with a conical tip, for instance, I can put some solder on the very end, and it WON'T automatically suck up, away from the tip. Now, to be sure, after using the tip like this for a short while, it oxidizes and will no longer take solder on those dry spots without some work at it... and definitely expect a decrease in tip life.But for sure, there are a lot of disadvantages, esp with production type soldering, drag soldering, et al. At the time I used the Velleman, I was mostly hacking up prototypes and one-offs, and esp considering the minimal tip selection of the station, the "poor-wetting" was an overall advantage in this scenario. I had a conical that tinned only a few mm on the very end, and it worked for years, albeit the tinnable area very slowly but constantly shrunk, and it would have eventually needed replacement (if it hadn't corroded and broken apart from the inside that contacted the heater, first).But first switching to Hakko, there were definitely some things I couldn't do, as well. Namely fine, point soldering of bodge wires without undoing the other bodge wires in the process. Until I discovered Hakko TFO tips from 1 to 3mm. With these, the Hakko does everything better, and I can use all my old tricks, plus some very great new ones. I've looked at Ersa tips, and I don't see that they have any TFO, so...The more you get into the process, the less often you need to do bodge wires... but I can't give up TFO tips. I think I'll always have an 888 kicking around, no matter what else I ever buy. It doesn't help that ironically I find the 2.5 to 3mm TFO tips to be some of the most usefulproductionsoldering tips made.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2018, 11:53:36 pm
content: After pricing out an equivalent ERSA system on Tequipment, I'm torn. For a couple reasons, one is that the price pretty much ends up being the same. JBC applied a 20% discount to the demo stuff which is even below Janel Online prices. Granted the JBC price doesn't include hot air but it's likely I'd pick up a Quick station either way.Another is that ERSA's tip selection is soooo close to being just what I need, but there are a couple oddballs from JBC I quite like. Though JBC not offering bent chisel tips for the tweezers is confusing to me. Those would be the most useful IMHO.Somewhat frustrating in the ERSA case is that I can't seem to find a distributor for certain tips! For example, the 0.3mm heat optimized pencil tip, or the 0.4mm chisel tip are nowhere to be found. TEquipment sells a bunch but only in 10 packs! RS Online also has a bunch but not those two, and none of the larger conical chisels. The ERSA shop is all in German and it doesn't look like they ship to the US.Anyone in the US using ERSA gear, where do you buy tips?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2018, 11:57:20 pm
content: You can order 0.3mm tip from TME. BTW eevblog members have 6% discount at tequipment if you did not know.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 04:07:23 am
content: FWIW, you could make contact withKurtz-Ersa USA(they have a physical presence here in the US, likely where US distributors get their stock from).As per another source, tryMurray Percival(takes you right to the i-Tool tips).

author: jhenderson0107
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 10:09:38 pm
content: I recently purchased an Ersa i-Con2 station from TopLoser, then subsequently hunted for tips and accessories within the USA. This proved surprisingly difficult. I couldn't use the online ersa-shop.com website, since it disallows user registrations outside of the EU. Amazon carries some Ersa tips, but with a minimum order quantity of 10/ea. TEquipment carriers a few Ersa tips, but most must be back-ordered. Incredulous that it was so difficult to locate tips and other common accessories online in this day-and-age, I complained to Ersa USA management via email.They recommended Marc Technologies (http://www.marctechnologies.biz/online-store.html#!/ERSA-Soldering-Tips/c/11819516/offset=0&sort=normal).I have no affiliation with that company nor have I yet ordered from them, but at least they seem to have most of the Ersa accessories available in their online store.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 12:22:54 am
content: Quote from: jhenderson0107 on January 08, 2018, 10:09:38 pmSidenote: I had a similar problem with a Weller iron which was ordered from the US for some reason beyond my understanding. It is impossible to find tips for that iron in the EU! There is something fishy about how localised A-brand soldering tools are.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 06:27:02 am
content: Thanks nanofrog and jhenderson. Unfortunately neither of those sites seems to have the 0.4mm chisel or the 0.3mm heat optimized pencil tip - only 10 packs. Frustrating!Are there enough folks here at EEVBLOG interested to get a group buy going? I considered today just keeping the JBC since it would be less short term hassle than returning it and putting a new kit together...until I used it to solder some bodge wires and the tip-tinning issue came back all over again. I'm starting to think the best compromise will be getting the ERSA station and then a single JBC station to run the oddball tips when needed. Fairly certain I'll be happier with the ERSA tweezers and desoldering tool. When I need the powerful hot air that could be a JBC station since it's standalone anyhow.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 07:00:29 am
content: OP.....Do you think the tweezers are a decent investment? Removing small passives easier?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 06:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 09, 2018, 07:00:29 amI bought a pair of Weller tweezers not too long ago and though I'm a bit underwhelmed by what the money buys you in a "it doesn't look and feel like much" sense, but it's actually stupidly simple to remove passives and even to replace them. Normally it can be a pain to heat one side, then the other only to find the first side didn't come loose completely. With tweezers you just pick the part up.Obviously, it fully depends on what you do whether it pays to buy them.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 07:04:40 pm
content: I think they're worthwhile if you'll use them more than once in a blue moon. For instance if you're tuning component values for an oscillator, amplifier or whatever, it makes it very easy to swap out component values. Despite being 2x40W on the JBC they do take a minute if there is a pad connected to a ground plane but so far they've been able to do the job. Those little tips aren't even capable of sinking 40W to the board, I'd be surprised if it was over 10, and surprisingly JBCs tip selection for the tweezers is downright awful.The tip prices are of course painful ($80/set) but the ERSA is no different on pricing.For me, it's a convenience I enjoy. Could I do the same thing with a good hot air and tweezers? Of course, but then that has risks too especially on a dense board.On the topic of the Weller tweezers, I don't think they're very good. We have a set at work and aside from being more expensive (tweezers + stand almost $400) they just feel too flimsy to me, too much play. The cartridge idea is great though, just pull the whole "tweezer" portion out along with both tips. Simple.EDIT: Worth mentioning that both the JBC and Weller tweezer stands are AWFUL. Either will fall out if you sneeze or look at it wrong. With the prices charged for these, and the dazzling breadth of cheap manufacturing methods out there, I'm still struggling to understand this.The ERSA tweezer stand doesn't look terribly better but it's hard to gauge. They also seem a bit "fatter" than the JBC tweezers but without holding them I couldn't comment on ergonomics.EDIT 2: OK I just went and played with the Weller tweezers again, after having used the JBC. I will say the Weller tweezers are actually not so bad. The construction quality is pretty good. Would be nice to have easier angle adjustments for the tips. The stand I would rate better than the JBC but if you bump the cord either will fall out.

author: kTsAT
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 15, 2019, 11:42:27 pm
content: I hope it's ok to bring this thread back to life.. it's my first post and I've read pretty much all I could find related to JBC and Ersa stations. I am still torn between both brands and maybe now after some more time passed, people might have come up with different views / opinions.So I'd basically be interested into the JBC dmpse or the Ersa i-con vario 4, they pretty much cost the same while the Ersa comes with hot air, the JBC doesn't. This wouldn't be a big deal since I'd add the Quick hot air station to the JBC dmpse. I also found the idea of splitting the vario 4 into a vario 2 (hot air and x-tool) and i-con v2 (i-tool and tweezers) a good idea.So, I was basically already about buying the JBC station since I've heard a lot of good things about it and technically it offers everything I'd ever need but digging deeper and reading eevblog topics I've read quite often, that tip life and tip wetting isn't that good. This is of course a major deciding factor, but then again, in general JBC seems to be the top brand.. When talking to someone recently and when I told him that I might get the Ersa instead of the JBC he just said "I shouldn't buy a VW instead of a BMW", that's of course exagerated, but still, JBC has a certain reputation.. I am more in production than repair, work is still about 50/50 tht/smd.. so I am mainly looking for the last push into the "right" direction to make a decision between these 2 / 3 options. Any info or decision help would be much appreciated.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 01:17:42 am
content: I decided to update my equipment to a Pace MBT350 (3 channel Intelliheat series) and two Pace ADS200 (1 channel Accudrive series) stations last year. Pace is still in the middle of releasing Accudrive handpieces and stations so if you are after the latest and greatest all in one solution there will be a wait. I'll try to summarize what I have setup most of the time.Pace MBT350 (price varies on config):SX100 - Vaccum desoldering. If not the best desoldering tool out there. Can be setup to run with virtually no downtime. Handle or pedal actuated, has anti clogging features, fast swap dross reservoirs.MT100 - Mini tweezers. Fast swap tips, powerful, cheap to run and solid. New Accudrive model being released MT200 is 120W and is aluminum constructed with silicone grips, should be even better. Dave will review soon.TJ70 - Precision hot air. Handle or foot actuated. It's convenient precision air for smd work, not a replacement for a BGA hot air setup.Pace ADS200 (price starts from around $220):TD200 - Soldering iron. 120w fast swap tips, calibration free, aluminum construction, 3-4s fast heating on smallest tips. Has advanced power features. Very simple to operate. Combines smd tips and high power tips into the one iron. Ergonomic and short grip to work distance. Affordable high quality cartridge tips ~$11-$13.I would have gone for an Accudrive multi channel station if it was released but currently this setup is the best of both worlds till the Accudrive series is finished. Pace balance longevity/performance/price over plastic, fancy displays. But as for technology the new Accudrive series has advancements over other brands.Below are shots of handpieces and what the stations look like on the bench. Don't expect fancy displays here. These displays are designed to run with continuous duty for years and even if failed can easily be replaced. The strain relief for the irons is built into the handle btw.