W11  - Worth upgrading from W10 ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Lindley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 12:01:47 pm
content: Hi,Our diy desktop runs W10 with an old Asrock H81M mobo and an Intel i3 4170 which are not TPM / W11 compatible etc.To run W11 we would need to update the mobo,cpu and ram which would come in at around GB £250-£300 for something like a socket 1700 i3 12100 cpu.We use it for typical home office work, along with some cad and micro ides etc.Its a private machine, well backed up etc so wondered if there is any real point in updating to W11 ?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 12:45:37 pm
content: No.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 04:33:46 pm
content: yes, if you envy MacOS taskbar...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 04:38:29 pm
content: Despite our own opinion, and our hardware that Microsoft says will not support W11, when will we be forced, against our will, to switch?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 12:34:33 am
content: M$ will not force you, but the vendors of the tools that you swear your life with will. So be careful on what tools that your life will dependent on.. btw, you can find in googles/youtube the other way around, that on how people force win11 on unsupported hw.. by birthright, my hp z800 should not be running win10, but somehow i managed to play mixed reality with it. ymmv.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 04:13:14 am
content: Have MS made any of their basic programs any better ? For instance the basic photo viewer is crap, as is the basic paint.I suppose it's not up to MS to do anything, but they used to make that stuff pretty good years ago.And even the calculator in win10, I'm sure it's worse, I don't use it tho anymore, I just use my real TI calc.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 05:15:36 pm
content: I haven't seen any real improvement in Windows in the last few years. Most are just *changes*, not improvements, and many make things either the same, or much worse.It seems to be a trend, it's not just Windows, and not just MS. I can say the same about most current large software projects such as web browsers. The trend is pretty much rooted in the agile fad (whether those companies actually implement an "agile" process per se or not), for which *changes* is the motto. There must be a constant rate of changes, a constant increment of versions, even if that means just changing some icons or *removing* features (which is also a very common way of changing things.)And of course, changes also include more telemetry with each new version, and this is again not just with MS.No one will force you to switch except yourself. The main problem you'll encounter is some apps that you are using that are not compatible with the Windows version you use anymore. For Windows 7, there's now a whole lot of apps that are in this category, but that really started a few months after the support officially ended. If you're currently using Win 10, since the official end is oct. 2025 at this point, you can probably safely use it at least up to that point without having issues with third-party apps.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 05:18:20 pm
content: In my case, I needed to switch to Windows 10 (with which I have no real problems) when TurboTaxTMsoftware no longer allowed Windows 7.My concern is that I am happy with my current hardware, and MS tells me it will not support Windows 11.(I am not a "gamer".)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 06:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on May 27, 2022, 05:15:36 pmYes and since they break everything down into bite-sized sprints, the big changes/fixes/improvements very often never get done because they are too hard to break down into small pieces so instead they spend their time just tinkering and changing things around. Removal of features drives me nuts, in my job multiple times I have had to push back against removing working features, ostensibly to reduce the support effort, but they were working! Why remove something that already works and has not required any significant dev effort? So what if only 5% of users utilize that feature, somebody clearly does find it useful. It drives me nuts.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 06:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 27, 2022, 05:18:20 pmTurbotax still has a standalone program? I had no idea it even existed anymore, for at least a decade I've used the web based one. Usually I am not a fan of web based software but in the case of tax prep that is only useful for that one season it makes sense.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 06:57:02 pm
content: Yes, Turbotax is available as a standalone program that can be downloaded (after payment).There is an old axiom in tax law and software that the tax law must change every year in order to render last year's software obsolete.I'm not sure, but it may be available on CD as a physical medium, but the first thing that happens when you start the program after downloading it is that it checks for updates online.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 08:29:06 pm
content: I implore you to run a fucking mile from windows 11. I just spent the day trying to provision a node as a development workstation. There are turds EVERYWHERE to step in. Hang out on windows 10 until about 3 months before EOL, then make the move if you have to.As you're in the UK, when you do finally have to upgrade, look on eBay for new but open box Lenovo machines with warranties. There are usually loads on there that range for £300-400 ish. You will get an decent i5, 8Gb of RAM and 256Gb SSD and a 3y NBD on site warranty for that. Oh plus they will come with a Windows Professional license. That'll give you 10 years' life easily.

author: 50ShadesOfDirt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 02:22:49 pm
content: It's always worth it to run the latest OS, after the initial dust settles. Whether it is worth it to OP or not seems more personal. I gained either performance or feature improvements, or both, from w7 to w8, then w10, and now w11.However, long ago, I maxed out the mobo/cpu (static part) with ram and SSD as these are obtainable and easy to upgrade. At this point, with these items maxed out, whatever OS is on there will be humming much better than before. If you periodically rebuild the OS and debloat it, so much the better. I'm over 5 years or more on my current ASUS mobo/cpu combination, and I've been able to install all these OS's on it.Don't know if OP is at max ram and on SSD, but if he were, and as he is already running w10, he'd gain a few more percentage points of performance and some feature gains just from w11. If he isn't maxed out in ram and SSD, then that's where I'd go first.Of course, a more modern mobo, cpu, ram, & SSD set will always make a difference ... the chipset changes with each mobo/cpu. Is what you have doing it for you, or do you need/want more (performance, features)?I would tend to run the latest OS platform, and on some cycle of years, upgrade to the latest mobo/cpu/ram/ssd hardware platform to get the latest chipset gains. Rarely does one drive the other, as my current platform ran or is running from w7 to w11. You don't really *need* the latest hardware to run w11, if you google a bit, but it might be a "good for the economy" thing if they make you think it is required.I did change out my nvidia graphics card separately over the years, as that gave me a boost in certain areas ... cad, gaming, video production, and such.Hope this helps ...

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 02:55:56 pm
content: Microsoft have a long history of borking every other major OS release, going right back to the pre Win95 Windows on MSDOS days of the early 90's. Its as if they forget all the end user complaints, technical support pushback and media screaming, so after a successful Windows version the development teams go hog-wild adding and changing stuff without consultation in the next release.Seehttps://www.quora.com/Does-the-fact-that-Microsoft-only-gets-every-other-major-Windows-version-right-mean-that-they-release-them-prematurelyfor a discussion of this MS anti-pattern.Therefore the sanest response to Windows 11 is to hold off upgrading till either you have to (e.g. a couple of months (for debugging) before Win10's end of support date - currently October 14, 2025) or until the next major windows release (Windows 12?) has been out for a few months, whichever comes sooner.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 03:13:39 pm
content: no, buy it's worth buying a Mac M1

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 05:21:54 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 03, 2022, 03:13:39 pmIf they didn't have a stupid notch in the screen I'd consider it. That's a deal breaker for me though, it drives me nuts.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 05:36:34 pm
content: yup, the notch in the screen is annoying and very stupid design, you have to make yourself one reason for it and accept it, which is not easy.Say, good compromise: the machine has better battery life, and MacOS has a better feeling, so I can ignore the annoying notch in the screen.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 05:52:08 pm
content: I can't ignore the notch, it drives me nuts. It's also totally unnecessary, they did it purely for the sake of fashion, they could have simply made the bezel a few mm thicker. I really don't understand the obsession with razor thin bezels, a bezel serves a purpose, it frames the display.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:01:23 pm
content: It’s only the M1 MacBook Pro that has it. The MacBook Air doesn’t.The notch doesn’t bother me at all. I’m happier to have an extra cm or so of vertical useful space on the screen due to it being there.The biggest problem with the thing is the screen is so good that it’s hard to look at anything else afterwards. You can zoom the entire London connections map to full screen and still read all the station names clearly.https://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:10:26 pm
content: If it doesn't bother you that's great, but it bothers me to the point that I won't even consider buying one, and I won't invest in the ecosystem out of concern that the notch will eventually spread to the Air as well. An extra cm? Just make the damn computer 1cm longer, who would even notice? It's totally absurd to make a huge sacrifice like cutting a chunk out of the display just to make a laptop one puny centimeter smaller. I am far from the only person for whom the notch is a deal breaker. A good friend of mine was all excited to buy a new top of the line Macbook when that range was coming out, they had fixed virtually every complaint he had about the previous models but then he saw they have a notch and changed his mind. Same reason he and I are both holding onto older iPhones.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:13:07 pm
content: Of all the things to strangle yourself over.It literally sits in the menu bar and stays out of the way. Same with the phone. It literally gives you more screen.Some people just like being miserable bastards.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:16:08 pm
content: The notch wouldn't bother me so long as it was handled well in the OS. If it's treated as extra screen real estate which is not used by normal windows, just somewhere to dump status icons, common menus, the clock.. then it's fine, so long as it doesn't result in the aspect ratio for the main area becoming non-standard.Whether Apple treat it that way or not I genuinely don't know - I don't use them, I'm not in the market for them, it isn't worth the time it took to make this post to research it. But if handled right.. meh, it's free space rather than blank bezel. And Apple, being in control of both OS and hardware, have the capability to do that properly - good luck ever getting Microshaft to make that work right, they can't even make the taskbar work properly on every version of Windows I've used since XP, there's always bugs which they just leave for the life of the OS.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:23:13 pm
content: Here's a screenshot of the notch. You can't screenshot it in-system as it's a virtual cutout. Literally it doesn't get in the way at all. You don't even see it after a couple of days.But of course you can punch yourself in the balls with this visceral reaction as much as you like and miss the fact that it's the damn near best thing out there in laptop land.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:24:49 pm
content: Seems grand. If the aspect ratio of the area without the notch is normal, I can't see why people are getting themselves so twisted about it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:27:07 pm
content: Indeed. To note it's people who seem not to own them that have the problem with them.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:51:26 pm
content: It's the same kind of notch that's on some mobile phones for the front camera (and possibly other sensors), I suppose?I don't like it either, not that it'd be a dealbreaker. I admit that with the M1, switching to a Mac is more and more appealing.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 03, 2022, 06:13:07 pmI'd rather not.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:54:57 pm
content: My phone has a literal hole, not a notch, for the camera, and.. I just don't see it any more, it doesn't matter. There's nothing up there but a clock and some status symbols, apps stay out of it - and this is the horrible unusable Android which is literally worse than not having a phone oh god I'm channeling my inner eti please help

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 07:01:34 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 03, 2022, 06:51:26 pmRather large 1080p webcam which works in low light + truetone sensor + camera indicator LED sit in there. No FaceID unfortunately. Apparently the FaceID sensor is slightly too deep to get in a reasonable screen profile.

author: 50ShadesOfDirt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 08:23:14 pm
content: "Therefore the sanest response to Windows 11 is to hold off upgrading ..."One could live in fear (of every other release), per the fine folks at Quora or other such sources, or ... do what I do, which is load a virtualization package, load w11 into it, and test. Find a wart that you aren't happy with, and fix or work around it with some googling ... repeat. After a (for me, short) period of time, it was ready to install onto my primary platform, supplanting w10.FUD is one approach to OS installs ... best practices are another, and with a few of these, any OS will be at your command in short order.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 08:36:27 pm
content: Or you could do what I do which is leave it two years for everyone else to do that first.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 08:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: 50ShadesOfDirt on June 03, 2022, 08:23:14 pmI'm not interested in being a part of their unpaid QA team. Starting with Win8 the amount of warts became nearly insurmountable and 10 pushed over the edge for me. I see no sign of 11 being any better. I just want to use my computer, I don't want to spend my time fighting against a hostile operating system.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 06:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 03, 2022, 08:59:46 pmSame here. I run various Windows installations in a VM (which runs on Linux) nowadays. When Windows starts acting up or slows down, I restore the VM and have a working system within seconds. Gone are the days of trying too figure out why something suddenly has stopped working & fix it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 10:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 04, 2022, 06:40:36 pmThat's the direction I'm headed. I'm running Win7 Pro on my daily driver and Linux on everything else (except vintage machines) at this point. At some point when Win7 becomes non-viable I'll go to Linux and run Windows in a VM as needed. I used almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 7 and most of them grew on me fairly quickly, I think Me was the only one I didn't use since Win2k came out around the same time and was vastly superior but starting with 8 was the first one that was unusable without 3rd party hacks. I used 10 for almost 2 years at a former job and it never grew on me, it felt like it was fighting against me every step of the way and it was a constant battle to just keep it out of my way.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 02:13:37 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 04, 2022, 10:54:17 pmAlmost exactly the same here.Quote from: james_s on June 04, 2022, 10:54:17 pmThe Windows versions I ever used were: Win 3.11, 95, 95 OSR2, NT 4, 2000, 2003 server configured as workstation (that was pretty good), then 7.Each step felt like for the better. The biggest step I experienced was when switching to NT 4. Felt like going from a toy to a professional tool.Had to use 10 for some job too but didn't like it, and the telemetry crap was a no-no for me.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 04:59:06 pm
content: I've been using it for a year+.After restoring the left-side taskbar and classic mouse context menu, it's way better that Windows 10, faster and less buggy.Win+X menu brings a decent quick menu, also admits keys for faster access.The only really annoying thing is window combining/grouping, it's enabled by default, there was a registry hack but was later removed, use Win+tab as alternative.W10 had serious issues every then, now and tomorrow, stuff breaking after updating was common, also I hated so much the black UI, a little worse and they would have go back to Windows 3.1.Still, I prefer Windows 7 by a lot, would use it if companies didn't make such big efforts to make it obsolete.My system has uncompatible CPU (i7-3770k) neither TPM, yet I get all updates, although McrappySoft said unsupported machines wouldn't get them.I'd say: Give it a try!

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 07:20:33 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on May 27, 2022, 04:13:14 amThe standard Windows mail program is designed to force users away from email to ... anything else. It's really terrible. But that said, Mozilla Thunderbird is worthless shit, too.The Mac Mail program still works well.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 07:21:43 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 03, 2022, 06:13:07 pmIf they don't like the notch, wait'll they get a look at the rounded upper corners of the screen!(Typing this on the M1 Pro MBP. And yeah, the screen makes everything else look like blurry crap.)

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 08:11:03 pm
content: On the other hand, you can get an Lenovo 14" Ideapad 5 Pro with a 2880x1800 display for a third less than a Macbook Air.The time when everything low end on the PC was FullHD is long gone.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 08:33:40 pm
content: Or you can pay a third more and get decent battery life, an enclosure that isn't made of what feels like recycled coke bottles, no vignetting on the screen, won't make you infertile if you stick it on your lap for 30 minutes and will actually log in when you open the lid not 5 minutes after you've argued with windows hello after daring to actually shave...Oh and an actual warranty (try getting Lenovo to service anything that you haven't paid for an extended NBD warranty on)I've owned a lot of Lenovo kit and I won't go there again.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 12:16:46 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on June 09, 2022, 07:20:33 pmI'm using Thunderbird 2.something and for the most part I find it to be pretty nice, although it's getting rather old at this point. I tried to like Thunderbird 3 for a while but there was something about it I just couldn't stand, it's been so long now I don't remember what it was. There seems to be a shockingly small selection of proper email clients these days which is surprising because web mail is terrible. I use Gmail and every few years they redesign the UI to add features nobody ever asked for and make it worse.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 02:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 03, 2022, 06:24:49 pmThat is exactly how it works. Full-screen mode avoids the notch. So yes, it’s people getting their panties in a twist for the sake of enjoying their own outrage.Quote from: Marco on June 03, 2022, 06:53:03 pmFrom a usability perspective, the menu bar is a spectacularly good design which has withstood 40 years of service (Apple introduced it in the Lisa, a few years before the Mac). It makes it clear which app has focus, and its position at the edge of the screen makes it far faster (and less fiddly) to target than an inset menu bar — the same benefit enjoyed by the Mac’s Dock and the Windows task bar (seeFitts' law).

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 02:20:56 pm
content: But most software is either so simple it doesn't need a menu, or so complex it needs a complete and much larger GUI, where the horizontal interruption would break clicking continuity. So what remains which you can put in the relatively awkward space is a small menu just to fill the space and I'd rather not, I can live with it ... but I could better live without it and more screen space. On a phone it doesn't matter, it's tall.You're always going to be working around it, not with it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 02:27:03 pm
content: Well don’t buy one then. More spares on the shelves for meAs for menus, use the keyboard. You can’t really complain about clicking continuity when you’ve got to drag a mouse to the top of the screen already. That’s like going to a steak house and complaining because they served you steak.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 03:31:15 pm
content: As a sysadmin I had to look out for the diferences of Win 10/11 for the company due to long term decisions.Basically it boiled down to something like this: When Win 11 is finally stable (=wait for 1 year after launch minimum), we have to evaluate all our (sometimes written inhouse) programs if they would run on Win 11, and then determine a timeframe for switching the whole company. In the meantime, all hardware bought has to be evaluated to be Win11 compatible.My colleague volunteered to be the first guinea pig for testing Win11 in production, so far it works on his Probook 650 Gen8 without issues- at least none we really could see.On old computers, like Haswell generation that do not have the necessary TPM module, Win11 is not officially supported, but can be installed. IN a test, a fresh install of Win11 on a Asus Mainboard with a i7-4790K was successful.But, as Win11 is more resource-consuming as Win 10, Win10 finally is down to yearly big changes and finally stable, I do not see any big benefits of upgrading to Win 11.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 03:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 11, 2022, 02:27:03 pmSoon I won't have a choice, Apple already has the high margin market dominance to buy over a year of process node advantage. A monopoly with trillion dollar barrier to entry seems inavertable to me.QuoteThe menu will be there regardless. I don't need a huge webcam with large lenses, I mostly don't need the menu, but I could always use extra screenspace. I can live with the notch, but it's always suboptimal.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 03:50:11 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 11, 2022, 02:20:56 pmOh, I see you’re talking about rejecting a notchinthe menu bar, not about rejecting the menu bar itself, correct?Well you don’t have to release the mouse click to move across the menu bar. Because it’s at the edge of the screen, you just slide the mouse along the top edge, where its vertical movement is constrained by the edge, allowing you to use much less precise hand motions to move the mouse quite precisely and quickly to the desired spot. The menus just scoot around the notch.And again, the display size and aspect ratioexcludingthe notch is normal, so what they did was to offload the menu bar onto the area around the camera, creating the notch. The alternative is to have no screen there at all, so the notch is actually giving you more screen space, not less.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 04:22:26 pm
content: I like Windows 11 and have had no problems with it. I wouldn't say it's worth spending money upgrading hardware just to move to it though. Next time you want to upgrade hardware anyway then it's probably worth switching.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 05:06:54 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 11, 2022, 03:50:11 pmLaptop lids need a little bezel, it's not like the new Macbook Pro has mobile phone sized bezels, a small webcam fits in there comfortably. I'm sure if you want to show your zoom partners every pore on your face the Apple cam is vastly superior ... but I don't really care. It solves nothing of value for me. Face Id at least would be somewhat useful, maybe some engineering schedules didn't line up and they just couldn't get it to fit in time and this was the result.I wonder if it's the IR projection which stands in the way of further miniaturization for Face ID, I don't see why a ToF camera would need to be any larger than a webcam. Of course Microsoft snapped up most of the ToF camera patents a little before Apple realized they needed it.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 05:36:52 pm
content: Still running Windows 10 on mandatory (company owned) laptop. Don't have a specific opinion on Windows 11, I run it in a virtual machine to test software. I don't really see what the fuss is about, the software we develop works just fine. I recently installed the first Linux desktop on another company laptop that will be used for special tasks that Windows can't handle. Yes, there are situations I can't work without Linux now. On company servers we've used Linux for 15+ years. I've been running Linux on my own private PCs as long as that (I ditched Windows when Vista came out). Lenovo laptops support Linux nowadays, you even get firmware updates via fwupd.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 05:43:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 11, 2022, 03:50:11 pmHaving no screen there at all would be far preferable to me. I know a lot of people have this attitude of "It doesn't bother me at all so it therefor is a non-issue and stupid to complain about!" but I would be most of those people have encountered something else in their life that bothers them greatly which others would consider a non-issue. Whatever the case it doesn't matter, a notch, hole, or any other blemish in the continuous area of a screen is an absolute deal breaker for me. I will not buy a device that has a cluster of bad pixels, and I will not buy a device that has a deliberate cluster of missing pixels, period. I will not put up with this nonsense fad and I most certainly will not support it with my wallet, this is not negotiable.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 05:48:04 pm
content: Yeah. I for one don't care about having a webcam embedded in the display anyway, so I would rather have none and no notch. Other, smaller sensors such as light sensors can be put outside of the display area.Is there any laptop out there without an embedded webcam?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 05:48:48 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 11, 2022, 05:06:54 pmI think it was a very deliberate branding move, it makes the device recognizably Apple, at least for a few weeks until everyone else copies them, and fanbois and corporate apologists will fall all over themselves to justify it and smugly belittle anyone who has a problem with it, I guess it makes them feel superior, I don't know. Whatever the case it triggers my OCD tendencies, I simply cannot stand it, it's like a bad pixel or a blob of snot on the screen that I can't wipe off. If it doesn't bother some people that's great, life must be easier for them, but for others like myself it is intolerable and I don't appreciate being blown off and marginalized.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 07:04:33 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 11, 2022, 05:06:54 pmThey don’t “need” them any more than a phone does, if anything, less so, since an accidental touch of a MacBook screen doesn’t cause things to happen…Quote from: Marco on June 11, 2022, 05:06:54 pmIf only. They may be better than they used to be, but the cameras in the MacBooks are still far behind those in the iPhone and iPad, which are similarly space-constrained, if not more so.Quote from: Marco on June 11, 2022, 05:06:54 pmSince both iPhone and iPad have Face ID, I doubt space is the reason.Me, I wish they equipped the iPad Pro with Touch ID, either as an option instead of, or in addition to, Face ID. I really prefer Touch ID, since I nearly always stabilize my iPad with my left hand, obscuring the cameras.Quote from: james_s on June 11, 2022, 05:43:00 pmSince you can disable display area next to the notch (open an app’s Get Info panel and there’s a checkbox named “Scale to fit below built-in camera”; having any app with that option set running causes the screen to shrink just enough to schooch out of the way of the notch), it really is a non-issue for those who dislike it.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 08:37:08 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 11, 2022, 07:04:33 pmThis would be an option for me as well.This articlementions you need to do this for every application software individually - I wonder if every update would reset this setting, but that would be somewhat uncontrollable by Apple (I would have preferred a system-wide setting, though).Also, the same article mentions thatApple also mentions in the support document that this scaling feature will disappear once developers update their apps to deal with the notch correctly.- so it wouldn't be a permanent solution for the "notch annoyed"...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 09:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 11, 2022, 05:43:00 pmBuy a studio display to go with it and you’re sorted

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2022, 10:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 11, 2022, 08:37:08 pmAs the article says, as long as an app is running this wayeven in the background, the display is scaled. And the option will presumably disappear when a developer sets a flag in the compiler saying “notch compatible”. So just run some old version of some tiny utility hidden in the background.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 12:55:48 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 11, 2022, 05:48:04 pmbut you miss one most important thing.. being trendy and modern..Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 11, 2022, 05:48:04 pmfor webcam 'not on monitor stupidity', there are plenty of options from not the macbook and not the m$. if you really mean no builtin webcam at all, then its difficult. Hence thats why my general consensus still applies that...Any breed of laptop (or tablet) is a piece of junk, afa serious work is concerned, esp the 16" monitor and keyboard are so 80's it only meant for kids or newcomers enthusiasts, unless you have a very good reason for your work that a pc or workstation inherently incapable of doing.. a much capable and powerful pc/used workstation can be had for 1/10 to 1/20x the cost of topline macbook.. i'd rather buy a kawasaki ninja then i can do much more such as clubbing..Why win10/11 thread wanders to laptop discussion? Esp the webcam on lcd abomination? They should be left piling up in dark corner of the gollum world.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 01:13:33 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 12:55:48 amWhile you're busy complaining, many more people are busy getting things done without issue.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 01:25:12 am
content: Good for you.. i get things done on a $500 machine..with no webcam ever..How to get things done nowadays

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 02:56:14 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 12:55:48 amLMAO at how insanely wrong you are. A top of the line, maxed-out MacBook Pro is $6100. You think a $305 PC can exceed that MacBook? 🤣 It won’t even match it. The M1 chip performs extremely well, and M2 ships shortly.16” display being “so 80s”? 🤣 some more: typical displays in the 80s were 12-14”. 17” didn’t become common until the late 1990s.Are the most powerful computers in existence desktops? Absolutely. But given that most software, even professional stuff, can’t actually make use of that (since that requires being highly parallelized, something most applications simply aren’t), the real-life performance of even a midrange laptop these days is sufficient.In my day to day, I use Altium, and it runsbeautifullyon my $1000 HP laptop. At home, I connect some bigger displays to it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 02:58:36 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 01:25:12 am

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 04:00:24 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 13, 2022, 02:56:14 ami know what you meant and also know how clumsy it is.. in the end, whats most usefull if anything in that tiny piece is the integrated board under the keyboard, but then, like the rest, is crippled in term of upgradability... (once i considered an integrated pc inside a full scale 20"+ monitor that i can carry around, forgot the breed name, that we can plug usb devices at the back of the standing monitor, but i figured my current pc is doing fine, the extra cost is not justifiable)btw, I know when my modded z800 utilizes all of its 12c/24t cpu, the fans will get noisy. Surprisingly mortal games that i installed (i learn to be a pilot) will ramp the fans up to max for a shortwhile during loading, unlike whats normally claimed that we only need 4 cores... let alone things like EM/FEA solvers and a diy brute force app to find 4th degree polynomial fit's global minima.. granted that this is only a minority report.. if you dont need it, a macbook at a cost of a kawasaki ninja will make you more than happy..

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 06:38:33 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 13, 2022, 02:58:36 amTo be fair I mostly use the webcam on mine for shaving

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 06:43:03 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 12:55:48 amJust have both worlds. A laptop that’s as powerful as a workstation and turns into an desktop. That is not that possible on the PC side of things unfortunately. All the workstation class laptops run stupid hot and noisy. To point out as well: the power cost of most desktop workstations is a significant contributor to the total cost of ownership.Anyway best solution at least for me. If I bought a Kawasaki Ninja I’d not live long enough to do any work.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 07:03:22 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 04:00:24 amStatistically speaking, the vast majority of computers never get any hardware upgrades whatsoever over their lifetimes. While we techies may think of upgrading as an essential thing, most people see a computer as a magic box and simply replace it once it no longer serves their needs. As such, it’s perfectly reasonable for the vast majority of computer models to not bother with upgradability, especially if giving up the upgradability allows for optimizations like reduced cost, thickness and weight, or improved performance (like Apple is getting by building RAM directly into the SoC).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 07:06:39 am
content: Can confirm. I haven't seen anything upgraded in any business for 15 years other than RAM and CPUs in servers

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 08:00:15 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 13, 2022, 07:03:22 amthats why i said for kids and newcomers is ok, and if you dont think to upgrade your skillset (more serious and larger softwares) in foreseeable future during the machine's lifetime. if they have the money, they can go for mac brand from the start. i cant name a single techies in my place that will touch a mac with 10' barge pole though. due to cost, most people will buy not a mac anyway and maxed out their hw later by going to itshop or if they have family who knows how when their os/sw got bloated. good luck doing that on a mac.Quote from: bd139 on June 13, 2022, 07:06:39 ambecause for business, i havent heard the boss asked for upgrade, they just buy entirely new sets within 5-10 years time, most of the retired sets still have a good life in them and thats what we B40 grade will usually keep an ear to, i have one here dell brand that i got for free few years ago and i maxed out recently for kids usage (after they managed to render my install to an unbootable state), about 13yrs of hw age... if its an old mac, the rubbish is its rightful place (no hope for upgrade). for normal (esp techies) people, esp storage tech is rapidly changing, you can mark the transition between HDD -> SSD -> NVMe and recently 1TB -> 4TB HDD/SSD upgrade, i bet its within less than a 5 years time for each tech to reach the market.another aspect is customization option during purchase, with normal PC, the range is basically limitless. dont have the know how? just ask your itshop to do it for you, just name your budget, what games you are going to play what engineering SWs will be in, how many hundreds GB of RAM or TBs of storage you want and you will be all set. you can even ask them to beat this brand or that brand at a fraction of price... 10 years later there is a new hardcore game/simulation that requires a new card, no worries, buy the new card and snap it in the PCIex slot of the old PC, mac? just buy the new book pro of that time i guess and you can put your old mac to a good rest. ymmv.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 08:20:13 am
content: Fair points. Last place I worked just shredded 50 unused i9 16" macbook pros. That's the horrible reality of corporate IT. A lot of stuff that goes through disposals and doesn't get shredded is excellent though. For many years I used ex corp desktops and laptops mostly new in box. Chuck some more RAM and an SSD in and use it and job done.I think the "average user value proposition" is peaking in the second hand Lenovo Tiny series. They are cheap, don't take a lot of room, fairly fast and don't use a lot of energy. Following that, the M1 mac minis are crazy powerful for the money. My Ryzen 3700X desktop was replaced within a week of buying one because it was faster and didn't bake my feet in summer

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 08:22:14 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 13, 2022, 06:43:03 ami'll do the other way around. buy a powerful PC and a cheap bottom grade laptop if i want portability, just to port my files from a PC/workstation to another PC or for presentation, web meeting etc.Quote from: bd139 on June 13, 2022, 06:43:03 amdiscuss that with big bike enthusiasts in their forum and see how much hatred you'll get for that statementi dont need a big bike just as i dont need a mac. your opinion is not wrong, in fact it is right for certain type of people. i'm just giving opinion who think want to be on the side of my type of people, cheers

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 08:30:07 am
content: I did the two computer thing for years. It never worked out for me. Always sync problems. I do have an iPad though for mostly writing up notes on and mobile use and that does sync perfectly with the mac.As for the bike thing, that is a statement about my ability, not the bikeGood to have different perspectives always. The answer is usually somewhere in the middle

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 11:21:16 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 08:00:15 amUtter nonsense.The days when software was always teetering on the brink of not running are long over. Most computers today far, far exceed the minimum requirements (or even recommended requirements) for most software. It certainly is not the case that "more serious" software always has higher system requirements than more entry level stuff. Heck, the most hardcore professionals often use software that is more lightweight than the stuff for consumers. For example, Keil (the big ARM MCU IDE) is extremely lightweight. A ton of professional software was originally created long ago, with the core code originally designed for far, FAR less powerful systems. Even with new features tacked on, they don't come close to taxing a modern computer.So "upgrading your skillset" certainly doesn't always (or even often) necessitate upgrading a computer.In contrast, modern games are extremely demanding.Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 08:00:15 amMaybe that's true in Malaysia; I know the relative prices between brands vary significantly around the world. Here in Switzerland, Macs are only a bit more expensive than similar PCs, and their significantly longer usable lifespans more than make it worthwhile, so it's quite common to see techies using them. USA is the same. (I'm an American in Switzerland so I have close ties to both countries.)Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 08:00:15 amThe average lifespan of PCs in business, which for many years was 2-3 years, has now crept up to 3-4 years due to the factors mentioned at the top of this reply. Macs in businesses typically are kept one year longer than PCs, so around 4-5 years now. Either way, 5-10 years is completely unrealistic.As for comparing adesktopPC to a Maclaptop: very few PC laptops have upgradeable graphics cards. Laptops, regardless of platform, tend to have highly customized motherboards, and while the Mac has embraced fully-integrated, completely non-customizable/upgradeable motherboards, the PC world is going the same direction, just a few years later (as always...).FWIW, I do still miss the days of upgradeabledesktopMacs. The current Mac Pro is upgradeable-ish, but nothing like how my 2008 Mac Pro is, in which all the drives and expansion cards have been upgraded many times over the years.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 11:38:28 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 13, 2022, 11:21:16 amThat's so true!The funny thing is, the PC I'm using now has a Ryzen 3 3200G and does the most intensive tasks I do (Fusion 360) with ease. Yet, I'm still planing to upgrade to a Ryzen 5 5600G in a few weeks. It's an addiction I think.What with all the AI advances going on I may need to run on of those on it soon.Yea that's the reason for upgrading ...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 12:35:27 pm
content: Get a mac. Neural engine. 11 trillion float16 ops a second

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 02:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 13, 2022, 11:21:16 amjust to be clear, my comments earlier are on any laptop in general, not particularly on mac brand. macbook is just a high end version of a laptop. any laptop doesnt have upgradable graphics card, thats what i was talking about, one of the thing.i dont consider any EDA such as Keil or Microchip Studio as "demanding" tools, even the Photoshop or Altium Designer, they are in "lightweight" to "middleweight" range. AutoCAD or other 3D CAD or renderers start to demand on GPU power, CPU power for custom render methods that the GPU cant do efficiently. things got heavy when you play with engineering solvers and FEA/FEM analysis tools. and i heard people talking about large scale SW development that the compiler will use to the last bit of your CPU power to do compilations of many code files, i dont think Keil is one of them. probably in sci-fi film production too. maybe you can ask people at NASA or CERN about which PC/laptop is suitable for their particle physic modeling/prediction etc. and there is no amount of processing power on earth that is "enough" if you want to do a custom O(n^x) operation with x >= 2, n = extremely large value, even for a small single function of code. ymmv.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 02:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 02:14:48 pmLOLNasa. Curosity team...Also the researchers tend to use MacBooks at CERN and the place is absolutely crawling with iMacs. They only place they don't really feature is on compute clusters and admin stuff. But it's all Unix and the Macs are Unix...Same in fintech these days as well.Edit: don't forget that Tim at CERN's old www box was a NeXTcube, which is basically what the current line of Macs are (Mach + NeXTstep + some evolution).Reality is you can go to ANY high street these days and buy a multi-core RISC 64-bit certified Unix machine descended from the NeXTcube that is used at CERN, NASA etc and ships with a full suite of compiler tools and a full Unix command line that runs rings around most other things on the market on performance and everything on the market for power consumption and battery life and everything that has ever existed on quality.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 03:02:09 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 13, 2022, 02:37:49 pmnot the socialized office people again!those are not personal owned laptops, those are company's assets, suited for the purpose

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 04:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 13, 2022, 02:14:48 pmDude.Nobody is disputing theexistenceof users with truly high-end needs. But your original statement, made to exemplify the need for upgradability, was that anyone who chooses to "upgrade" their "skill set" will need upgradability. And that's complete and utter nonsense. The hardware demands of a piece of software have no relation to how far someone goes in their career! A programmer, no matter how skilled, will never need cutting-edge hardware to do their job. (OK, if you're going to compile the entire Windows source code, it's handy, but it's not justyourwork then.) Meanwhile, anyone doing 8k video editing, no matter how low-skilled they may be (even someone straight out of school at a film studio), is going to need a beast of a machine with massive storage infrastructure. It has nothing to do with skill and all to do with the requirements of thejob.And realistically, very, VERY few things these days require high-end hardware. The vast majority of workers, regardless of skill level, have minimal-to-modest system requirements, and won't EVER upgrade their computer, they'll just replace it.I remember when computers were so slow (very early 1990s) that a standard part of benchmarking in computer magazines was recalculating large Lotus 1-2-3 or Excel spreadsheets, because the difference between an entry level machine and a top of the line one could be 45 seconds vs. 15 seconds. That's a real, palpable difference. Only a few years later, they removed the "recalculate" command altogether because it was something that could be done in real time. It used to be that photography was an extremely high-end application, now it's something that (at least when implemented with some brains) is happy on almost anything: graphic artists no longer need to be as high up on the performance scale as they once did. When I started my career in IT, professional standard-definition video editing required machines with tons of specialized hardware and massive disk arrays (The video never even passed through the CPU: the computer was simply the host and user interface for dedicated hardware). SD (and HD) video editing is something modern systems can do in their sleep.I also think it's important to point out that games have basically redefined what high-end means. GPU development isn't driven by high-end professional graphics (engineering workstations, etc) any more, it's driven by games. A GPU that's modest for modern games is, frankly, quite capable for a whole lot of engineering software. (The main difference between "pro" cards like the Quadro line is the drivers, which are optimized for accuracy over speed, whereas the gaming drivers are optimized for speed at the expense of accuracy. As an aside, on the Mac, there's never been this distinction, with the drivers all more or less corresponding to the pro drivers on Windows. That's why software that demands a pro GPU on Windows is perfectly happy with the equivalent gaming GPU on the Mac.) It used to be SGI pushing GPU capabilities forward for money-is-no-object level of high end applications. Less than a decade after $250,000 each SGI Onyx systems were needed to create the liquid metal in Terminator 2, SGI was moribund and Maya, the descendant of the software used to make that film, was running happily on Mac OS X and Windows NT on commodity hardware, thanks to games pushing GPU development forward at a tremendous pace.Similarly, the growth of standard computer performance is why the high-end UNIX workstations (SGI, Sun, etc.) all died out. Mainstream hardware caught up with them, so there was no longer any justification to spend the enormous R&D costs to design those things.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 07:09:08 pm
content: After using Windows 11 for some time, I still don't like it. Windows 10 is more user friendly, while 11 is a pain in some aspects. Also, I have not found one single nice new feature.But the upgrade is a must, due to security updates which will cease on Windows 10, when it gets obsolete.The only thing one can do is to delay the upgrade until then.It pisses me off that most of my power computing hardware is not eligible due to older CPU or lack of TPM 2.0.

author: austfox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 02:33:19 pm
content: I put together a new computer for home use and installed a fresh copy of W11. About 4 hours in and all my programs were installed, drives setup the way I like them, desktops customised, and the whole thing just works without any issue.W11 was a free upgrade from W10... W10 was a free upgrade from W7... and I've been around long enough to remember when DOS was AUD $150, Windows 95 for around the same price, and OS/2 was well over the $200 mark (maybe half the weekly wage back then).I realise the money to be made nowadays is in data collection and App purchases, but since W11 has been working 'out of the box' for me, I can't complain.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 09:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 13, 2022, 04:29:58 pmFor many years the computers I could afford were never really powerful enough and they quickly became hopelessly obsolete. Now my daily driver laptop was made in 2015 and I'm typing this on a 2011 made Thinkpad since my main laptop suffered a hardware failure and I haven't had a chance to rebuild it from some parts machines I bought and for day to day use this thing is plenty capable. I can't tell the difference in speed between this and brand new Macbooks at work. Computers got so fast that it just doesn't even matter anymore for most things, even a 10 year old PC is perfectly fine for about 98% of use cases.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 09:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: austfox on June 14, 2022, 02:33:19 pmUpgrade LOLI consider Win10 a substantial downgrade from Win7. I've used both extensively and there is no comparison, I got so sick of fighting with Win10 at a former job that I have never looked back, upgrading to 7 was a breath of fresh air. I recently picked up another laptop that came with Win11 so I played around with that for a bit, not sure if it's better or worse than 10, the start menu is hot garbage though. They keep messing with it and it STILL is not half as capable as the start menu in Win7. I wish they'd just throw the Win7 UI on top of the Win11 framework and ditch all the telemetry and other trash, then they'd have a solid OS that I'd actually pay for.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 11:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2022, 09:57:07 pmcurrently using Win7 on 13yrs old PC, soon upgrading to Win10 on another older 7yrs old but upgraded to maxed PC. if talking about start menu, i still miss WinXP start menu... no need to scrollbar, all apps can fit in a screen for quick browsing. but its a second issue (after Windows Explorer) as i've workaround of putting my frequently used apps on desktop screen and taskbar. but digging seldomly used apps in start menu, WinXP is still the best... my need for newer Windows is only due to be able to run newer apps/features that cant be run on WinXP anymore, and security update is the second reason. the kids in M$ who develops newer Windows only think of appearance rather than practicality, maybe due to the majority of kids out there requesting it in their Users Experience Surveys.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 09:55:39 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2022, 09:54:21 pmExactly!!! In fact, until I got my Windows laptop last winter for school, my daily drivers were my 2008 Mac Pro and 2012 MacBook Air.The only reason they struggle at all with my everyday stuff is because I tend to leave a bajillion browser windows open. (Indeed, particularly with the Mac Pro, the ever-growing problem wasn't performance, but software compatibility, since it doesn't support recent versions of macOS, and I've been too lazy to look into the hacks to get newer versions on it.) Asking the MacBook to run Windows in a VM with all my other stuff open at the same time was simply asking too much, so I got the Windows laptop for school. And realistically, Altium struggled in a VM on either machine, since VirtualBox's GPU support is... modest.