Auto-Tune. Now used on Simon and Garfunkel. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 04:29:10 am
content: A comparison of two live vocal performances of Art singing Bridge over troubled water. One from 1981 and the other from 2009 released with Auto-tune. A non-Autotune 2009 version isn't available.25min video or you may prefer to examine just the isolated vocal comparisons:1981https://youtu.be/1ylQPwNofmQ&t=122s2009https://youtu.be/1ylQPwNofmQ&t=521sThe youtuber does a pretty good rant in the vid, so I'll spare ya.Bottom line is if you are buying old music, check that they haven't applied this garbage to it. The record companies think it's cool apparently.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Tune

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 05:17:49 am
content: I cannot say that I am surprised. It was a matter of time.I hear a lot of modern music with the vocals processed both with autotune and harmonization.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 05:21:54 am
content: I agree with the gentleman on the video. I was thinking auto-tune was a form of cheating. It was discussed in this thread back then (thread link below).I must add, I enjoy "real" music better. Listening to computer created perfection is not the same as listening to a human performance. It just doesn't invoke the same kind of emotion when you know it is just a computer making the "art".Quote from: Rick Law on March 15, 2018, 01:15:17 am

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 05:42:50 am
content: To answer your question, Rick, some performers are using it on the fly during concerts. With mixed results. There are a few y/t vids where they have caught the performance in the phone and then looked at it closer. One video I saw there was a point where they realized the effect was so munt that they turned it off. From that point the singer's warts-and-all voice went out to the audience.The same youtuber had a video on this about Michael Buble. So insidious.Auto-tune goes wrong LIVE for Michael Bublé. Is it REALLY worth the risk?!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 05:49:52 am
content: Even when it's not obvious to some, I can still hear the autotune artifacts. It bugs me, probably more than it should, but I just can't stand it.

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 12:02:23 pm
content: Auto-tune is absolute garbage. I don't understand how people can enjoy auto-tuned performances. Maybe I'm getting old.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 01:31:58 pm
content: A while ago I bought a CD of Bridge Over Troubled Water, only to find it was strange - because it had been remastered.I sent it back, and got a transcription of the original album.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 03:46:09 pm
content: I struggle to comprehend how could any sound engineer think this sounds good.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 03:01:03 am
content: Well, IMHO, it's not really about sounding "good". It's probably that producers get pressure to use autotune everywhere, because that's what people have now become used to and the majority of them (especially younger ones who have known nothing else) are likely to find recordings without autotune "weird'.So even remastered stuff - if they intend on getting more sales and touch a younger audience, they may *need* to do it. Yeah it's like all trends.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 03:05:23 am
content: And I though rap was the bottom of the music industry....

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 03:05:30 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 19, 2021, 03:01:03 amRevolting.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 03:53:12 pm
content: This is all about record companies making money. Auto-tune sounds like crap, but you won’t know it until after you pay the record companies. Look at what Phil Spector did to music especially the Beatles. It was about a noise and a wall of sound not the quality or fidelity of the music. Just look at the voice quality of cell phones. When cell phones were first hit the market they were trying to get the quality of a landline. Now, it’s a race to see how little bandwidth is required to get good enough voice quality,It’s all about money. Alway has, always will,

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 06:42:19 pm
content: This guy also has a nice video on Michael Jackson recording voice doubling. Absolutely no autotune involved, he just hits the note - 100%, every single time. He just moves around the room to change the ambience.On the autotune-topic, I think there is a Netflix documentation on this - how software invented to analyze seismic waves turned into autotune (and the inventor obviously made millions from it).

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 07:00:35 pm
content: Isn't Auto-tune the electric guitar, Moog synthesizer or tape loop of this generation but for voice? The Beatles used all, and mufti-track recordings, is this really any different? I'm sure this same argument was made well over 100 years ago when songs were recorded on wax cylinders and records. Depending on the type of microphone and placement the voice was altered.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 07:33:48 pm
content: Auto tune as far as I can tell was invented as a band-aid, not as a new frontier in sound.This doesn't mean that a recording that uses auto tune can't be musical, but you have to assess the end product as a combination of the proficiency and skill of the auto tuner, not just the vocalist. Sometimes 99.99% the auto tunerI think auto tune does fundamentally represent a devolution of musical ideas. That is to say that notes in music are complex entities with many parameters, and are often continuous rather than discreet. This doesn't really mesh with how it's typically implemented in technology, and so it's just another element that gets neatly quantised and simplified, along with harmony, rhythm, tempo and phrasing.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 08:19:44 pm
content: Quote from: John B on December 19, 2021, 07:33:48 pmI think what you are saying is music sucks today - No disagreement.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 08:22:34 pm
content: Auto-tuned singing sounds fake, and you lose the character of the original singer. But without auto-tune a majority of the current singers wouldn't be consistently good enough to record. I'm being a touch cynical but I hate the music industry as it is these days. I grew up listening to music in the late 70s and 80s, the golden era!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 08:26:29 pm
content: May be some very devoted music fan can some day make a difference...Sue them under false advertisement. This is not the persons voice as depicted on the cover, this is a computer generated voice basing on the person's voice. Then, after one or a few such law suits, the record company may find it necessary to put some visible indication on the cover; something like "This recording has been modified by computer and is not a true representation of the person's singing."Law suits are expensive, so this will need to be a class-action kind of suit driven by a group of some sort. Seriously, I would consider joining such a group. I am not particularly devoted, but I like my music real. At times, the imperfection or even the trembling of the voice can convey real emotion adding to the singing.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 08:31:19 pm
content: Quote from: YurkshireLad on December 19, 2021, 08:22:34 pmSo true. I think Marni Nixon was the first Auto-tune. She was the singing voice for Audrey Hepburn, Debra Kerr, Natalie Wood and many other well known movie musicals.Movie and record industry has been dubbing for 100 years.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 08:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: YurkshireLad on December 19, 2021, 08:22:34 pmI know it's a complete reversal of the stereotype but I don't know how the kids can listen to the stuff they do today, it's sobland!

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 08:45:42 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 19, 2021, 07:00:35 pmEven if that's the case, it should not be applied to existing records. That's just... wrong.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 08:56:02 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 19, 2021, 08:36:43 pmAny where is the creativity?

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 09:20:30 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on December 19, 2021, 08:45:42 pmIt's a tough call. The musicians did sign away the rights of ownership to recording companies, but it was also at a time when there was no other choice, not like nowadays when an individual can buy their own recording equipment that vastly exceeds the quality of the best 70's studios.To me this highlights the importance of owning physical copies and personal backups of recordings, much like movies. You can't trust large corporations to not fiddle with IP over time, whether to "historically revise" media for political purposes, or make good aesthetic judgements.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 12:44:02 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 18, 2021, 01:31:58 pmI have noticed a lot of 80's stuff on YouTube sounding horrible despite seeing "Remastered" written on it. When I look for something that wasn't "remastered" like recorded from a record player quite a few seems to sound the way I remembered it sounding.I knew there was some fiddling going on with these so called "remastered" stuff but I didn't know what it was and didn't sound good to me.I thought a long time ago that remastering was about using other ways to remove noise and cleaning the picture up a bit.QuoteNow they alter or interfere with it.When I hear fancy words like like enhance I always think what bullshit maybe behind it.Why can't they just LEAVE it alone.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 04:49:47 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 20, 2021, 12:44:02 amWhy indeed.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 05:15:44 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 19, 2021, 03:53:12 pmIt doesn't bother most people, but it sure bothers me. I would much rather hear hiss than speech coding artifacts. Excessive harmonization sounds bad also, but auto-tune sounds worse and for whatever reason seems more apparent.Do not get me started on dynamic range compression and the loudness wars. People do not realize how bad it is until they either listen to old source material or make their own recordings.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 06:22:40 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 20, 2021, 12:44:02 amIn the context of remastering music it was different.The musicians create music in the studio. It's recorded, mixed and edited in the studio environment, and the resulting sound is a combination of the whole signal chain. The largest influence on that is the interaction between the monitors, studio/control room environment and the engineers ears.One of the jobs of the mastering engineer is to take that (traditionally stereo tape) and alter it so it sounds as-intended on common playback devices. In the old days, that was anything from the old transistor tape player, car stereos with 4" drivers or cheap 400W PMPO plywood boxes in the lounge room. That meant a good look at the EQ to make sure it wasn't going to be too boomy or tinny, no screeching resonances, not pushing the needle out of the groove on the lathe and so on.In some cases, the studio was known to be using monitors that had a specific bias, resulting in a master that sounded awful outside of the studio. So compromises were necessarily made.As reproduction technology improved, and certainly when the 80s introduced the CD into common use, record companies (and artists to be honest) saw the opportunity to take the original studio output and "re-master it". Basically run the mastering process again from scratch. So not re-mixing, nor editing or in fact altering the original mix in any way. Just mastering again to leverage the advances in reproduction.I have a few re-mastered CDs that I've also got original Vinyl for, and they were done as-intended. I also have some re-mastered cd's where "re-master" obviously meant "compress the fuck out of it and make it all highs and lows". I like the former.Unfortunately re-mastering doesn't actually mean that anymore. It's been co-opted to mean any perversion of the original (like auto-tune, or the "Buddy Holly and the Picks" abortion).Many years ago I read a great interview with the mastering engineer who did the Beatles re-issues last time around, where you could get them on Vinyl, CD, SACD or some high-res bluray or something. The interviewer asked him which one he should buy, and the engineer said "Buy the mono vinyl. George Martin was a whiz and knew the limitations of the format. There were things done during recording because he knew it was going to vinyl and we couldn't do anything to make them sound the same on digital formats". That was one case where what was done in the studio directly influenced the mastering engineer. But George Martin was certainly different.I bought the Vinyl and the CD of the same album as a test. I won't say the Vinyl sounds better, but it's different in ways that are hard to quantify.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 06:34:49 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 20, 2021, 04:49:47 amMoney - Remastering, Remixing are just bullshit marketing terms to get people to buy it again. Look at how little it cost’s them to remaster something they already own. It’s next to nothing.

author: Moshly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 08:14:36 am
content: This video from Rick Beato breaks it down fairly wellIts worse than just tuning, Rick explains in some of his other videos how everything is now quantised to the beat.Then there is the loudness wars : Goodby Dynamic RangeAnd now for some modern music with dynamic range, free from auto tune & quantising.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2021, 08:18:52 pm
content: Anyone remember Beatles, Day in the Life. Are you trying to tell me the 24 bar transition is much different than the music today?

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2021, 10:48:28 pm
content: Western music is forced into the twelve tone equal temperament, which in itself doesn't contain any clean sounding intervals (12√2 ≈ 1.05946 ratio between each step). Equal temperament is a compromise where every interval is a tiny bit off, sounding a bit off pitch. Except the octave, which is a perfect 2 to 1 ratio. Forcing all music by using auto-tune to produce these same musically dead intervals makes the music sound dead and clinical. Even in western music, string or brass instruments, or a cappella vocal music (without instruments), they do not strictly adhere to the equal temperament, but rather try to create perfect intervals where possible, because clean, natural sounding intervals are a natural thing to do. In singing, it is almost as natural and easy to sing a perfect fifth as an octave (of course, you then disagree with the piano). It is an intuitive thing, of course now mostly destroyed by the western equal temperament scale (people are used to hearing intervals wrong). A perfect fifth (C - G), would have a ratio of 1 to 3/2 or 1.5, which sounds very nice, especially in a chord (no dissonance). Whereas a fifth played on the piano would (theoretically) have a ratio of 1 to 2^(7/12) or 1.498307077, which doesn't sound clean or natural. That's why some temperaments through time have tuned instruments with perfect fifths mostly (of course the other intervals are not perfect then). But when singing or playing instruments with variable pitch, it is a natural thing to try to achieve perfect intervals where possible. Auto-tune destroys all of this, plus of course any spontaneity, imperfection and so on that make us all human and contributes to a unique live musical experience.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2021, 11:51:40 pm
content: Quote from: jukk on December 22, 2021, 10:48:28 pmThat sounds like you are describing Jeff Lynnes recent "one man show" re-recording of the old ELO classics.Perfect but completely devoid of any feeling.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2021, 05:10:44 pm
content: One who impressed me immensely when I first heard him, but whose auto-tuned performances later made me a bit disappointed is Dimash Qudaibergen, who certainly must be one of the most advanced vocalists out there today. He has a crazy vocal range and successfully uses an incredible amount of different vocal techniques. His variation of style doesn't make him easy to listen to, though, but as kind of a master class vocalist, he is unique. Interestingly the eastern countries (former Soviet) where he mostly performs, do a lot of post processing and auto-tune of especially televised performances. That's a shame, because the guy can really sing. There are many live performances out there too as proof that he really can sing. Many of his youtube videos are claimed to be live (for sure they were at the moment he performed), but are clearly post processed before released. Many people claim that the guy therefore can't sing, that everything is made up in the studio. Go figure. But if you have any knowledge of vocal technique, you can't avoid being amazed by the guy, whether post-processed or not.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2021, 05:27:19 pm
content: Allegedly the studios pretty much force it on artists where they can these days, because "the audience is used to it and expects it", even when the artist is a perfectly good vocalist. Lady Gaga would be an obvious example.I can just imagine the conversation between the publisher and the members of Iron Maiden if they tried to impose autotune on them; I'd imagine a fair number of expletives followed by moving themselves to another label...

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2021, 06:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 23, 2021, 05:27:19 pmOr no label at all. It's always been about the money not the music with record companies.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2021, 12:34:30 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 23, 2021, 06:14:16 pmOr just start their own labels, has happened quite a few times. I expect artists with big sales and good managers can have their contract specify non-interference on such matters, though obviously if you've signed away rights to a back-catalogue, there's bugger all you can do about it.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 10:15:36 pm
content: why all music sounds a like, it is psychological trick to keep you scrolling and keep looking for something you will never find. exploitation of young generationI think Lady Gaga was made and promoted by record labels, same as Gangnam style experimentwhen the hype is going to end/or decision, record label kill and switch to new project(same happen with TV series to free up air space)if there is bass and sound people dont care

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 01:28:15 am
content: The point is, she's a good singer, and yet the record company made her use autotune on her early albums.Also, nobody really gives a shit about album sales any more, nearly all the money is made in touring.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 05:24:19 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 26, 2021, 01:28:15 amWhat’s an album?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 09:34:50 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 05:24:19 amA series of pieces of music played in the order intended by the artist, cf Spotify.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 03:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 26, 2021, 09:34:50 amYou mane that’s the way things use to be, when people could sing and didn’t use autotune, could play instruments, and took time to produce a quality product in which consumers would pay a fortune to buy high end stereo equipment so they could hear every note in high fidelity. This includes the Ringo’s chair squeak at the end of the Beatles song “A Day in the Life”. People listening to music today do not care about the quality, it’s the quantity.In 2018 Forbes magazine said the record album is dead. The trouble is, too many artists fail to recognize that the album is quickly becoming a relic of the past and even detrimental to their success.We live in a singles world today. No longer does anyone consistently sit down for 40 or 50 consecutive minutes to listen to an album from front to back like they used to. In our portable music society today where streaming music from Spotify or Apple Music is the king, there's no reason to be tied to the music playback system or to listen to songs that we don't care to listen to. If that's the case, why should an artist even bother to spend the months it takes to create an album?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 07:39:40 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 03:51:00 pmAnd that's not just with the "music industry". That's what you get when the only goal becomes to maximize profits, and technology allows it. In a way we could say this is down to entropy.Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 03:51:00 pmIf they said so. When you have that much influence, it's easy to make influencing the world pass as predicting the future.Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 03:51:00 pmWho decided that?Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 03:51:00 pmOh really. Not anyone? That's a bit much.And, no one is forcing you to listen to a whole album in one go. You can listen to it as you like. As I'll say below, the creation process itself of writing a whole album and only a single song is very different. And so, the end result is not just that you have fewer songs to listen to.Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 03:51:00 pmBecause that's like any other form of creation. Like writing a book. Sculpting. Painting. Maybe even designing a product.Are you suggesting that people should just stop bothering writing whole books, and stick to Twitter-like posts instead? Is this the new world?Any kind of creative process takes time. Heck, anything valuable we do takes time. Time is a big part of what gives value to anything. This is not particularly philosophical, it's even just a physical constraint.Now, if we absolutely keep on working on getting time out of the equation - which again happens not just for music, but is a more general trend - we are likely to end up at a point nobody will enjoy. This looks like a dead-end to me. But this is apparently fine, as we seem to like dead-ends, lately.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 08:39:11 pm
content: Music and art is in the ear and eye of the listener/looker. To say music and art take time to create is complete BS. For some it might take a lifetime and they will never achieve it. Yet for others. they can do it in a matter of minuets and it can be perfect with very little effort or experience.Albums typically had a couple really good songs along with others which were just awful. If listening to an album on a record one would have to move the phonograph needle to skip a song on an album. With cassette tape one could omit the song/s when recording from the record. With tape, CDs and DVD there is fast forward and skip. With Alexia it's the word skip and no need to buy an album with shit songs.Dude the world has changed, but it appears you aren't happy about it. Change with the times or perish.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 09:36:13 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 08:39:11 pmWe are not given the option of listening to the music produced by the artist, but by a corporate monopoly.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 11:00:10 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 26, 2021, 09:36:13 pmIsn't that the way it has always been? Profits first. That's what killed Napster and it took Steve Jobs to disrupt the music industry in price and distribution. The record industry is still pissed.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 12:23:23 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 08:39:11 pmOh really.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 12:37:27 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 27, 2021, 12:23:23 amReally... How many signers or actors have created works which became very popular with only one take and/or had never acted or sang before?How many writers had never had a book published yet the first one was a huge success?How long did it take someone to toast a piece of bread and see Jesus's image calling it art?Just look at YouTube and TikTak and you will find thousands of videos with no experience which have gone virial making people millions.So really art can take no time at all (for some) to create. Other's might not be able to crate are trying their entire life.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 12:53:03 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 27, 2021, 12:37:27 amSo, just like my example of Twitter posts becoming good enough to replace books. You're confirming what I said. You just don't seem to get to the same conclusions. =)

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 12:58:45 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 27, 2021, 12:53:03 amArt and how much someone with pay for art is i the eye of the person buying it. Please explain why people are paying millions for NFTs?

author: RiZsho
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 09:59:09 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on December 26, 2021, 08:39:11 pmYou should try it and publish some of your art. Be happy to listen/view.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 10:35:26 am
content: popular artyoutube intagram tiktok.. is like ice ice babynot being michael jackson, bee gees .. you cant be no matter how much tryit was risky gamble to invest into something that could go bustnow somehow need to get constant growth of profitI think modern popular musicians are face/actors reading script and are owned by record company . and voice is not important factor , probably reason to pay less

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 04:53:38 pm
content: michael buble had autotune fail during a live performanceStill his music sounds just as bad with or without enhancement. When will Canada stop exporting musical misery to the world?

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 01:53:34 am
content: Huh, I hadn't seen that before, I always thought he was perfectly proficient without it and may be he is. It's hard to hear exactly what he was doing due to the recording quality and the pitch correction interfering, but it sounds like he was bending into notes and throwing the pitch correction off, leading to the artefacts.But what's more interesting is the artefacts when the piano is playing by itself in the intro. Did the mix engineers run the whole master bus through an autotune? This is like shot-at-dawn level mistake.If I was Michael I would have been pissed as well, afterall it does negatively affect his brand name. Assuming that he didn't have a choice in such things, it's probably something negotiated with his manager.

author: vwestlife
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 09:56:51 pm
content: They're doing the same thing with drums. They "quantize" the recording so that every drum hit lines up exactly perfectly with the tempo. It ends up sounding like a drum machine, because that's basically what it is -- a recording cut and pasted together on a computer. Rick Beato has ranted about it in several videos:

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 10:32:21 pm
content: Age old complaint by old people. It was about 500 years ago people were complaining that the printed book is just not the same as one hand made by scribes. And then it was music on wax cylinders aren't anywhere as good as a live performance. Then it was records, radio, TV, magnetic tape, CDs, DVD, and now it's autotune. Ask some young kid if they think if old outdated music from the 50s and 60s is better or worse than today's autotune computer music? They will probably say no.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 11:18:40 pm
content: It is not just Autotune. Is dynamic range compression applied as a result of the Loudness Wars is an improvement?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 12:25:20 am
content: Don't today's loudness stem from women signing Arias at the top of their lungs? And did they have any musical talent?

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 01:09:59 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on January 06, 2022, 10:32:21 pmYou're comparing mediums to a process though. Wax cylinders, records, tapes, digital audio are all iterative attempts at objectively recording sound, whilst being totally agnostic to what is being recorded.As I said earlier in the thread, autotune can be used as an interesting form of synthesis. But how it's mainly used is to "fix" music and in that comes a whole host of value judgments about what music should sound like.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 01:35:22 am
content: Quote from: John B on January 07, 2022, 01:09:59 amYes and no. The recorded mediums were meant to be a replacement for live music. This resulted in poor quality which in the 100+ years since wax recordings were made technology has been attempting to fix. First intended use for Autotune. Just as artists like the Beatles used the technology to improve the quality of recordings as an instrument to produce music, artists today are using Autotune as an instrument as well. (Second use of Autotune.)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 09:12:51 pm
content: If I use auto-tune in a live concern, can it correct if I pressed the wrong piano key or pressed the wrong note for violin?I don't know the answer to the above, but I am guessing it is a "yes". If so, it is acting more than an instrument and more a correction device. If one uses an bow-and-arrow set that self-guides, does hitting that target with that device made one a good archer, or does it not? It is still a good shoot when it hits the target. But should the credit goes to the person, or the credit goes largely to a good device?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2022, 09:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 14, 2022, 09:12:51 pmWell, frequency (pitch) is only one aspect of a performance, and often not the most important one.I've worked on recordings where autotune and overdubbing were used to correct a recorded live-concert vocal (the usually good singer was suffering from a cold and travel-fatigue). It salvaged what would have otherwise been an unusable performance. By the way, when I heard the original recording and I commented on the off-pitch singing I was told they would use autotune. This was a live concert, so I asked about instruments bleeding into the vocal mics. They said not to worry. When they were finished, I could faintly hear the instruments de-tuned by the same amount that the voice was pitch corrected, making an interesting beat-note. It bugged me, but nobody else seemed to notice or care. In the end it sounded great, but I could hear the artifacts.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 05:02:22 am
content: Take a look on YouTube someone analyzed Karen Carpenter's singing. Turns out she could hit a note and stay on it perfectly with her all 100% natural autotune. Turns out her recording was a bit flat and live performances were spot on.I think Tiny Tim is also said to have been pitch perfect. He was very well educated in music theory Tip toeing through the Tulips.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 12:41:20 am
content: May or may not be of interest to you..Early 8-Bit Sound Digitizers

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 07:23:39 am
content: Yeah FAKEs that stay around a while tend to aquire a sort-of lingering 'cultural funk'; analagous to bad 'smells'.We've got a 'couple' politicians, one Xtra bad, in particular with the 'FAKE Botox treated' face, lookin liketerminator 2, RIGID, PLASTIC...People aren't fooled, by the 'plastic looks' and most may not be, with the FAKE processing of their music.They just, adjust, perhaps occasionally thinking;'Whew...that lady has vanity, bad...'.But they don't say nothing.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2022, 08:53:37 pm
content: In my opinion, the bottom line is, auto-tune can achieve better "mechanical perfection" but that better mechanical perfection doesn't equate to better music.Music is what? Not just a series of notes, but instead it is a communication to convey feelings and emotion via sound. People do buy the same piece of music from different artist because they communicate different emotions and communicate them differently.The pauses, the way the note transit from one note to another, the volume of a note, and the rise and fall of a note, all convey information -- all adds to the whole of the performance.Typical music prodigies achieved their "mechanical perfection" at an early age, but never having experienced say for example "a broken heart from being abandoned by boyfriend/girlfriend". Thus, they do not have the romantic depth in feeling that someone older with actual romantic relationship experience has. So, be it instrumental or vocal, their playing often is "wooden" as compared to older musicians. They could imitate how other artist convey the emotion, but in doing so, they are not conveying their own emotion -- they don't yet has that emotion to convey. Auto-tune will at best make an "amateur level skilled" musician sound like a good prodigy but fails at delivering the emotions that make the music come alive.In my opinion, yeah, live performance with an audience is better - because the artist's emotion and the audience's emotion feed on each other. There is a positive feedback loop there. Recording of course will depend on the media as different media may miss the more subtle qualities differently.Until "Commander Data" achieve his dream of having emotion, his experience in life will never equal that of a human. Same for AI today.EDIT: typo correction, mistyped "node" which should be "note" in a few places. Musical notes is a thing, musical nodes isn't.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2022, 09:17:08 pm
content: Music is a form of art. And just as art is in the eye of the viewer, music is in the ear of the listener. Art like music is a business and the artists and promoters charge as much as they can to make as much money as they can. If you don't like auto-tune music, don't buy it.Is Auto-tune that different from lip-syncing?Or having Marni Nixon ghost sing for Audrey Hepburn, Natalie Wood and many other stars any different?Check out the Dave Clark Five on the Ed Sullivan show. Someone didn't press the play button at the right time.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2022, 11:21:17 pm
content: I have a question... At this place I go to they sometimes do Karaoke.They have this adjustable peddle thing where the microphone connects into it which they say is suppose to make their voice sound better than it is.Is that some form of auto tune?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2022, 07:47:11 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 11, 2022, 11:21:17 pmInvite me. If when I sing it sounds like Elvis Presley then it’s Auto-tune. If everyone leaves, it’s not. It’s probably a reverb box.