How is your Yamaha feeder doing? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 06:56:07 pm
content: I'm having bit of trouble with my Yamaha feeders that I bought from QIHE (so clones, obviously).1st, I had to install a second spring onto the arm that pushes the peeling wheel against the second one. It was failing to pull the cover tape strong enough without it. So I just bought more of them, and put second one on all of my feeders. So far that created different problem only once, on a 12mm tape. On 8mm tapes it works great.2nd, I noticed that some of them are more or less prone to components bouncing after the pocket is opened. Some are really bad, some are ok. The problem is critical on 8mm feeders. The temporary fix that I applied wholesale to all of my feeders is a rubber band around the feeder, pushing the top moving plate down. It works pretty well in 95% of times. (Meaning, with the fix I still have a couple of exceptionally bouncy feeders out of 50). I also tried using speed control valve to slow down the feeder. I started with a really bouncy feeder and put LEDs in plastic tapes in it, which is the worst combination. I was able to eliminate bouncing entirely as closed the speed control valve. However I did not get to deploy this fix yet permanently yet. Need more testing.Is there any secrets to these that you can share to make things smoother yet?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 07:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on March 19, 2018, 06:56:07 pmYup, I have this problem on certain capacitor tapes, almost exclusively on paper tapes, not the embossed plastic tapes.QuoteYes, this is why REAL Yamaha/Philips feeders are better. They have a "vane" or blade that covers the pocket. This vane moves forward in sync as the tape advances, and is only pulled back as the nozzle is coming down to pick up the part. I NEVER have problems with the part bouncing out of the pocket with these feeders.Jon

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 09:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on March 19, 2018, 07:57:19 pmInteresting, can you take a picture? Mine also have the blade that covers the pocket as the tape moves forward. The bouncing occurs when this blade retracts to open the pocket. I could not quite understand whether it from the vibration created by the impact of the fast moving parts, or from the compressed tape springing up...I'd like to get a real Yamaha feeder to try however not quite sure where to buy themThey are all "genuine"

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 03:46:55 am
content: Quote from: ar__systems on March 19, 2018, 09:24:35 pmHmmm, interesting. I'll see about a photo. But, my Philips CSM84 weighs 600+ Kg, and the feeder rails are about 20mm thick and solid steel, and weigh about 30 Kg each. So, the feeders do not bounce, even if you pound on them. Even though my machine has mechanically actuated feeders (an air cylinder presses down on a lever to advance the 8 ans 12mm feeders) there is no movement or bump to the feeders. I'm wondering if the actuation of the feeder is causing it to vibrate. It doesn't take a whole lot of vibration to cause the parts to jump when the cover blade is retracted.Other than that, the top clamp that holds the tape down fits QUITE tight to the top of the tape. So tight, in fact, that if the tape is just a HAIR thicker, it will bind the tape. If the clamp or the blade is not RIGHT down on the top of the tape, it may allow parts to jump out.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 01:07:50 am
content: OK, here's a picture of the tape area of the Yamaha (Philips) mechanical feeder from my CSM84.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 02:02:44 am
content: Thanks! Well the clones look seem to implement the same principle, but the implementation is slightly different. I also notice that is a section of peeled tape is much shorter than on mine. It looks like if you unload the tape from it you will lose only 4 parts. On mine it will be more. Don't remember exactly, maybe 8. The sprocket also seems to be closer to the pick up location. So maybe that is not exactly a prototype for the Chineese cloneStill, I'd like to know if there is a procedure to tune these to work better.Oh, on your machine, do feeder get a separately regulated pressure? I'm thinking that maybe they don't need full 80-90 PSI and will work better at lower pressure.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 07:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on March 21, 2018, 02:02:44 amActually, with a little technique, you can usually get it down to just a couple parts, although I generally don't quibble over 2 or 4 0805 resistors.I do get more concerned with several $ op-amps and $0.50 capacitors. I just about never use cut tape for resistors and small capacitors, just buy a whole reel with leader. But, I do use cut tape for expensive parts. For those, I have a technique to peel a little of the cover tape, and then feed the tape into the feeder such that the cover tape catches on the slot where it is supposed to come out of. This is pretty tricky, but I can get it to work. Then, I splice the little bit of cover tape that is sticking out to some old cover tape with masking tape, and feed through the puller mechanism.QuoteWell, the little bent blade that covers the next-up pocket really does keep the part in the pocket. Then, when the feeder lever is pressed, the feeder must not be vibrated. Even a LITTLE vibration is enough to make the part fly. That is part of the reason the CSM84 weighs 780 kg or so.QuoteNo, the 8 and 12 mm feeders do NOT have any air. They are mechanically actuated by the same air piston on the head that lowers the nozzle. The 16mm and up feeders do get air, at constant pressure. But, the air valve has a "speed controller" that is basically just a needle valve. I think there's just one needle valve that controls both the extend and retract of the air cylinder.This is an older style of feeder than is used in the Gem series of Assembleon machines.Jon

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 07:56:28 pm
content: I have real Yamaha CL feeders and Chinese Clones, on my YV100's. The clones work just as well as the orginals.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 08:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on March 21, 2018, 07:56:28 pmSo, no malfunction whatsoever? Where did you buy the clones?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 10:03:27 pm
content: http://www.ksunsmt.com/

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 10:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on March 21, 2018, 08:32:05 pmhttp://www.ksunsmt.com/I did'tn say no malfunctions. I just said as well as the orginals. there will always be something to wrong periodically. They are mechanical devices. They will break down. But they compare just as well as the orginals..

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 09:20:43 am
content: I also have ksunsmt feeders and they have a sliding vertical tail of metal over the pocket .Robert did you get your feeder plates changed out, the early TVM920s had those ill fitting feeder plates, the feeders never sat flat and fast on those old plates.QiHe was swapping them out.g

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 06:40:09 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on March 21, 2018, 07:56:28 pmHow good is the YV100 ? And how much does it cost? Thanks!

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 09:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on March 19, 2018, 06:56:07 pmYUP, I have REAL Philips/Yamaha feeders, and do something similar. I just "choke up" on the spring, ie stretch a shorter part of the spring over the points to give more tension.QuoteMy real Philps/Yamaha feeders have a blade that covers the pocket as the tape advances. This blade is retracted when the head pushes down the trip lever, so the nozzle can pick up the part. Then, the blade extends as the tape advances, preventing the parts from coming out. This totally prevents parts from bouncing out of the pocket. See post #4 above in this thread.Jon

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:26:14 am
content: Quote from: dimbmw on July 31, 2018, 06:40:09 amThese are 1999 vintage machines, they dont' make them any longer. You can buy them for around 15-20,000 maybe less if you are lucky. They are real SMT machines.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:59:21 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 31, 2018, 09:17:34 pmIt is the same on my clones, but when the blade retracts sometimes parts bounce, especially on plastic tapes. So far I deal with the problem by putting a rubber band over the entire feeder to hold the sliding plate with the blade down. It works.I actually bought some speed control valves to try and slow down the opening of the feeder, but did not have a chance to try it yet.

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 05:37:41 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on August 01, 2018, 02:26:14 amAre thre any recent machines that use the same yamaha feeders as QiHe ? Just wondering if we will be able to keep the feeders and use them with the other machine.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 09:15:20 pm
content: Plenty of machines use the CL Feeders.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 09:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on August 01, 2018, 02:26:14 amI got my CSM84 plus about 50 feeders for $3500 US. Maybe I was extremely lucky (a direct sale, no broker, and yes, the seller was motivated as replacement machines were ON THE WAY).Jon

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 12:37:01 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on August 01, 2018, 09:39:54 pmIf you hunt around you can find some real bargins. I got mine at auction, for a song. But it comes with the risk that you have no idea if they are running, and its all on you as-is where-is.

author: nikhilrt
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 12:27:26 pm
content: I faced the same issues !The problem is, you are doing it wrong !Have a look at the pickup coordinates of the feeder. Is it the one that is generally covered under the metal strip or the one just above it ?I solved my problem by using the Pickup coordinates to component sitting under the metal strip.While pickup, the metal strip is supposed to go back and expose the new component for pickup until nozzle picks it up. Once it is picked, the metal strip moves forward (back to its original resting position) moving the next component forward under it. (The next component will never move as it is protected by the strip).If you set the other coordinate, when tape is moved forward, since the component is left open, no one is stopping it from moving / overturning / rotating.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 10:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: nikhilrt on October 26, 2018, 12:27:26 pmYes, look at my picture in reply # 4. The location to pick up the part is where the tip of the cover blade is. When the feeder is "activated" that cover retracts, exposing the part, but NOT advancing the tape. Then, when the feeder is "released", the cover slides forward at the same time the tape advances. So, the next-up component is covered by the blade until the nozzle is right over the pocket to pick it up. Unless the feeder is jostled a lot, the parts will not fall out.Jon

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 11:54:36 am
content: Quote from: nikhilrt on October 26, 2018, 12:27:26 pmCongrats on figuring out that the pick up coordinates should be for the part under the blade! It is so self-evident, I'm sure you are the only one that made this mistake.

author: AJ Quick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 04:40:29 am
content: Have you had any luck trying the regulator / speed control valve? Likewise, I think the feeders have way too much pressure and that's causing chips to jump! I'll try the rubber bands on mine!

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 03:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: AJ Quick on November 27, 2018, 04:40:29 amI did one experiment but never gotten to implement it on all of the feeders. I keep using rubber bands. They break, but they are cheap and easy to replace. I'm not sure why, but the jumping behavior nearly disappeared for me. Maybe the feeders kind of broke in? Recently I was making 64 boards with a total of couple of 1000s of 0603 LEDs in plastic tape(aside other parts), which used to be real PITA, they were bouncing real bad. And I don't remember having any of the LEDs upside down.I'm not sure if the s/w on your machine allows per feeder pickup z adjustment, on mine it does not. I lowered feeder plate on one side by about 0.8 mm, and use this side for paper tapes only. The other side (higher) is used exclusively for plastic tapes. In yamaha feeder the optimal pickup height depends on tape thickness, and this trick allows me to keep it closer to optimal to different types of tape.

author: AJ Quick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 08:45:21 pm
content: You may need to show me where the rubber band goes exactly. Around the portion that holds down the tape to the cog?I went and added a regulator to precisely control the feeders. Now some of them work perfectly and some throw chips but its not as severe as it once was. I have a feeling you are right about them needing to be broken in a bit too. Thanks for the tip about tape thicknesses too.Edit: Qihe seems to believe my issue is with the chips being blown by the nozzle rather than the feeders momentum causing the problem. This makes sense because they all feed properly when I'm doing it manually without the nozzle nearby. Do you happen to have an air assist to (presumably) puff the chips off of the nozzles?

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 01:38:58 pm
content: How can they be blown by the nozzle, when the nozzle *sucks* air? Even if they do blow air in between pickups, I don't think the air stream from 503 nozzle could possibly move 0603 part from 15mm height.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 05:31:05 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on November 29, 2018, 01:38:58 pmOn my Yamahas the nozzles, both suck and blow air. the part is 'blown' off the nozzle when it is placed. Otherwise they would stick to the nozzle. However it its happenign at pick up, somthing is wrong.

author: AJ Quick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 06:09:22 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on November 29, 2018, 01:38:58 pmYeah there is a little aquarium pump that blows a tiny bit of air through the nozzle. Apparently Qihe's implementation is poor and it is always blowing air.Disabling the blower fixed my problem of the chips coming out. I just hope they don't get stuck to the nozzles now.

author: mrx
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 07:04:17 am
content: We are building our smd layout. Stop at Chinese copies of yamaha feeders. We cannot find the characteristics of the compressed air system. Tell me what pressure should be in the system?