EEVblog #1233 - The Demise Of Solar Roadways - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 11:51:54 pm
content: The inevitable demise of Solar Roadways in France, China, and the Netherlands. But Solar Freak'n Roadways won't go down without a fight!, not that it was ever in the ring, apart from starting this whole boondoggle concept.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 12:16:45 am
content: 50% of expected is highly efficient, politicians operate on the PPB efficiently level by defaultthis is more like a stunning success being downplayed by neurotic engineers. It meets its goals better then most goverment programs.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 12:20:45 am
content: I wonder where they hid the jumper cables to charge it to meet the 50% level though. Undoubtedly there is a rather severely tapped power pole in the region.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 12:22:45 am
content: Segolines power bill is undoubtedly in the six digit range

author: Deodand2014
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 02:43:46 am
content: You are absolutely right about the complete waste of time and resources this thing has been, sadly with the rise of 'If itfeelsright, itisright' thinking you can expect a lot more things like this in the future.And it's not as if this was unknown, if you dig through the US Department of Energy website, you can find all the solar power/home energy efficiency work they did in the 1970s under Carter (A lot of this also used to be duplicated at the NASA Technical Reports Server, but was removed following the 2012 'security scare'.) and the one thing you do not see is 'lay the panels flat on the ground'.As for the medias role in all this, the same thing happens with 'water from air' devices, no matter how many times the inefficiencies are pointed out, the concept just bobs back up like a rubber duck and each time it's a 'new breakthrough' with the previous failures being ignored.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 01:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: Deodand2014 on August 01, 2019, 02:43:46 am$imple and predictable. If it can attract attention - and, thus, dollars - it's fair game.

author: goeiecool9999
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 03:30:14 pm
content: Hi there EEVBlog forum. I'd like to link this article relating to the solar bikepath in the Netherlands. Unfortunately it is written in Dutch but google translate seemed to do it's job well on the French articles.anyways here is is:https://nos.nl/artikel/2010809-zonnefietspad-kan-niet-tegen-de-kou.htmlApparently last winter the surface got so cold that the panels were damaged.However the company behind these roads did acknowledge it on their twitter and said they took the necessary action to fix it and prevent it from happening again in the future.Something that I wouldn't see Solar Freaking Roadways doing publicly on their twitter account. Though clearly from the picture posted on twitter in the video that didn't seem to work.

author: Ahaber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 04:55:48 pm
content: I live about an hour away from Baltimore. Might stop by and see whats up this weekend. Will report with photos if I make it.Edit: After some digging through instagram posts it would appear the Baltimore installation isn't happening until September will definitely check it out once it's installed.

author: cFire
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 06:05:29 pm
content: I found out that I live a 15 minute drive from one of the newer SolaRoad projects in The Netherlands. (The one in Haarlemmermeer.) So I went to see what kind of condition it's in and take a few pictures. Spoiler alert; It's not doing great.I've attached one of the photos taken from roughly the same vantage point as the photo they show on their site. You can see the solar panels are currently covered by the kind of heavy steel plates they use to make temporary construction work roads.You can find the high res and the other photos I tookhere. Just to be clear, the close-up photos are actually of the solar road. There's so much dirt and sand on there it took me a minute to realize it wasn't just normal concrete.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 07:52:44 pm
content: Wow, that site opened in March this year and that's its current state? Another epic fail.https://www.solaroad.nl/portfolio/

author: ExtraSmallWhack
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:05:48 pm
content: Quote from: cFire on August 01, 2019, 06:05:29 pmThat's because it's broken...The province of Zuid-Holland (Zuid = South) has a few press releases on their website about the SolaRoad (all in Dutch).March 7th, opening of the bus lane:https://www.zuid-holland.nl/actueel/nieuws/maart-2019/werelds-eerste/March 15th, a first update:https://www.zuid-holland.nl/actueel/nieuws/maart-2019/update-zonnewegdek/July 9th, the bus lane pilot is being ended:https://www.zuid-holland.nl/actueel/nieuws/juli-2019/beeindiging-pilot/So the March 7th one basically had the same information as the press release on the SolaRoad website (as seen in the video).Then the fun starts, so here are a few translated excerpts from the March 15th one:QuoteThen the full press release from July 9th:QuoteSo it looks like Dave doesn't have to worry about his future income from debunking solar road projects..

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:20:01 pm
content: Resin panels are garbage in terms of reliability (when it comes to water, salt, cold weather, etc.). Are there any commercial solar installations that even use resin panels?I get why you'd think its better as a road surface, but, glass is much more reliable for solar. So its kind of a lose-lose situation choosing either one.Quote from: goeiecool9999 on August 01, 2019, 03:30:14 pmI see what you are saying, but cold weather is a thing that damages roads and unless some tech has drastically improved, will keep happening. Regular maintenance has to be considered on these things.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 07:27:04 am
content: Quote from: cFire on August 01, 2019, 06:05:29 pmTHAT'S the panel?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 09:21:21 am
content: the prison industrial complex can sweep that for a fee

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 11:33:53 am
content: cFire, those photos are beautiful

author: Alex26641
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 08:13:25 pm
content: I read the most recent #1234, and this one... I had to laugh out loud... I especially liked the Carl Sagan Quotes.

author: Jef06
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 09:47:09 pm
content: @EEVblog hold onto your hat... The French "département de l'Orne" (the local administration dealing with roads in the area) has allocated 100k euros to rebuild a new version of the road, 400m long this time, with second generation panels...Link (in French):https://www.ouest-france.fr/normandie/alencon-61000/route-solaire-l-orne-investit-100-000-eu-dans-la-deuxieme-version-du-projet-de-tourouvre-6424676

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:16:22 pm
content: Perhaps if they are going to keep on trying this they should focus on testing a transparent surface that holds up and stays transparent for a reasonable period of time because that is going to be the key to the whole thing working at all.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:20:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 03, 2019, 09:21:21 amMost of the world doesn't have a "prison for profit" industry.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 02:45:13 am
content: can you just drive a street sweeper on this thing once in a while?i wanna see that woman driving a sweeper

author: Damon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 06:10:35 pm
content: Seriously, not a single word on our top-notch German engineering?Germany got a solar bikeway last winter (November 18):https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/erftstadt-bei-koeln-deutschlands-erster-solar-radweg-oeffnet-a-1237681.htmlSPOILER: The magic smoke escapedhttps://www.maz-online.de/Brandenburg/Solmove-Solar-Radweg-in-Erftstadt-nach-Schwelbrand-ausser-BetriebBy the way, Mr. Müller-Judex has found the solution to vehicles causing damage to solar roads:Don't drive on them, just park your vehicle on the solar panels. (2nd last paragraph of the first link)GENIUS!!! If the vehicles don't move, there is no friction or stress to cause damage.Now we all just need cars made from transparent aluminium and the Sun will shine right through them,onto the space designated to be covered by parking vehicles...

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 11:14:16 am
content: Yep, the magic smoke escaped in April or so. In July it was still closed and covered in black tarp (I guess as kind of an EPO switch) The latest news article I could find (July 4) says the city is waiting for the company to fix it, but the planned fix must be extensively tested and will then be approved by TÜV before the repair work will start. The city is planning to put up detour signage for the bicyclists...https://www.rheinische-anzeigenblaetter.de/mein-blatt/werbepost/erftstadt/solarradweg-bleibt-gesperrt-neues-kapitel-in-der-posse-32803092I should really go there and have a look, it is only a few miles away.

author: Damon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 11:36:46 am
content: @TassiloHIf you go there, watch out for the energy counter and if it displays anything at all:https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/rheinland/koeln-rhein-erft-solar-radweg-100.htmlTL;DRThe city (apparently in charge to to this) forgot to do the paperwork to connect the bikeway to the grid.Also some panels "were destroyed by vandals using stones, others were not installed correctly"So this cycle path caught on fire shortly after it was connected to the grid... Coincidence?Well, no time to think about that, the guy already has plans to pave LA in solar panels:https://innovationorigins.com/start-up-of-the-day-solmove-cruising-the-streets-with-the-sun/Oh, and he wants to wirelessly charge cars, make pedestrian crossings appear when children step onto the road, acquire and process data to control traffic and transmit power between homes with his solar road. BINGO!

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:03:43 pm
content: Guys, you don't understand the reasoning here.Those experiments are for solar cells manufacturers to do efficient accelerated life testing of their products funded by taxpayers.Hmm. I funded the french one.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2019, 05:31:13 am
content: Something's afoot at solar roadways!https://twitter.com/BookSwapSteve/status/1173436952672124930

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 12:36:26 am
content: If they ever did get a solar roadway panel work correctly, how far could the power practically be transmitted?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 02:21:28 pm
content: Quote from: JustMeHere on September 17, 2019, 12:36:26 amThat depends on how much secondary electronics you attach to it.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2019, 03:13:56 pm
content: Now they can claim there have been able to increase the efficiency of the installation (as power produced vs consumed)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 12:30:02 am
content: Looks like our mate Scott is taking out the stuff from the panel box, and the hole has been filled with sand.Doesn't make sense if they are just replacing the panels.https://twitter.com/BookSwapSteve/status/1174113949178126336

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2019, 12:37:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2019, 12:30:02 amPublic safety. Filling with sand decreases the trip risk, but sand can be removed very easily. Wait for the area to be paved or concreted for a full surrender.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 05:04:34 am
content: They know we are watching!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 07:14:37 pm
content: LOL!I find it strange though that there is nothing about 'upgrading' the installation on their website. Wouldn't that be worthy of a press release?

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 05:25:56 pm
content: A couple of articles regarding the construction work.http://sandpointreader.com/solar-roadways-unveils-a-new-model/https://www.kxly.com/news/solar-roadways-installing-updated-road-panels-in-downtown-sandpoint/1122907483

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 04:26:23 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on September 21, 2019, 05:25:56 pmQuoteHas anybody written to "jstapleton@sandpointidaho.gov" to point out that the previous ones didn't produce any Watts at all?

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 06:38:41 am
content: No longer "Coming soon"?Anyway, do we have some numbers on how much power those solar panels consumed since they were installed? Those heaters they were running last winter must have gobbled up quite a bit.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 07:32:44 am
content: Clearly the tiles have been stolen by the Big Coal, or Big Nuclear, or Big Tarmac or something!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 01:22:12 am
content: It's BAAAAACK!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 01:28:16 am
content: Its back with new more efficient tiles with only half the number of sides.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 01:32:27 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 01, 2019, 01:28:16 amAnd half of them chopped off

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:24:29 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 01, 2019, 01:28:16 amThat's still just a hole. I'm guessing the pattern is for installation purposes (is that where the thick cables go for all the power these things are going to produce?)

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 08:56:45 pm
content: Wouldn't a triangle (compared to hexagon) be a worse shape to be covered with square solar panels?There are also more individual panels for the same area - more connections to go bad.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 09:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on October 02, 2019, 08:56:45 pmIt's almost as if you believe the people paying for this can do basic math.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 11:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on October 02, 2019, 08:56:45 pmMore connections yes but what you can't do with square panels is cover an uneven terrain. In that respect choosing for triangles is a good idea.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 01:05:22 am
content: Which uneven terrain, this is for Roadways FFS. I'd say such pattern is even dangerous in that its weirdness may through some drivers off (mentally) and cause accidents.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 07:08:57 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 03, 2019, 11:57:31 pmWhile it's true that triangles can cover uneven surface, if all you have is a bunch of equilateral triangles, you can only cover flat surface. For 3D contours, you need all sorts of different triangles.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on October 04, 2019, 07:08:57 amIn theory but if you look at regular pavement you can often find a tile being cut diagonally to cover some uneven bit of terrain. I assume there is some wiggle room between the panels so the spacing isn't critical. Road surfaces are never perfectly flat and may deform over time for various reasons.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2019, 02:21:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 01, 2019, 01:22:12 amSurly that's just some underlying support. There is a fair drop from the surface of the concrete to whatever that is creating one hell of a trip hazard. Certainly the real deal must not be installed yet.Seems comical that something designed for foot traffic only (in this application) would need an elaborate support under it vs just sand, stone/stone dust or some other common base material. Paver driveway has far less BS under it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2019, 10:17:01 pm
content: SR4 panels are in!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2019, 06:51:20 am
content: So - will these new ones be able to melt snow?

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2019, 06:59:21 am
content: I'm guessing they still only burn money.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2019, 07:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 08, 2019, 10:17:01 pmMaybe we can change the thread title to "rebirth of solar roadways"?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2019, 07:11:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 09, 2019, 07:03:09 pmAn then back again next week when the new roadway dies?

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2019, 07:30:31 pm
content: It's a stillborn anyway.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2019, 07:31:51 pm
content: At least they're working on improving them, but not sure who is paying for that? We all know the system is plugged-in using grid powerStrange theepoxy reacted with the blue, white, yellow LED's.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 05:17:24 am
content: Are the yellow LEDs the sort that uses a phosphor? The blue and white LEDs are both blue emitters, so perhaps the intense blue light is affecting the epoxy the same way UV from sunlight breaks down polymers?

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2019, 09:57:55 pm
content: They are up and running. The pattern they are displaying is S, R, 4. Ingenious.It appears that it's overcast in Sandpoint, but these new and improved LEDs still aren't particularly bright, even from above. Maybe SR5 will be revolutionary.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 03:32:42 am
content: I have to give it to them... They keep on pushing - and you kinda hope they will be successful. Shame our current understanding of physics and economics isn't aligned with their aspirations.If nothing else, they will have put in a lot of effort that will show how well the ideadoesn'twork - effectively, that is.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 10:00:07 am
content: The Solar Busway Graveyard!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 03:47:06 am
content: What was the cause of death?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 03:55:58 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 18, 2019, 03:47:06 amBusses rolling over solar panels

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 04:10:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2019, 03:55:58 amIn the graveyard, nothing looks busted up or destroyed. It's a very thick concrete substrate, so no flex issues like the other failed roadways. Unless those failed panels are in landfill, not the graveyard. The only other difference is the coating is gravel granules of something that obviously could not compete with a bus tire. Who'd have thought?Quote from: james_s on November 10, 2019, 05:17:24 amSR3 looks like they're using Cree XLamp leds, it looked like amber not "yellow" ? The encapsulation caused trouble.Cree XLamp Chemical compatibility"Any VOCs present in an SSL system can diffuse into the gas-permeable silicone lens and encapsulants of the LED. Within the molecular structure of these silicone materials, the VOCs will occupy a free space in the interwoven silicone polymer. With subsequent exposure to high photon energy emitted from the LED, along with the heat from the lighting system and the environment, the volatile compounds trapped in the LED's lens or encapsulants can discolor. This discoloration of the trapped VOCs can degrade the light emitted from the LED. This discoloration tends to occur in blue, royal blue and white-light producing LEDs that use blue wavelength LED chips with yellow phosphors for spectrum conversion. This sensitivity to VOCs is not unique to one LED manufacturer but is a known problem for all types of blue, royal blue and white-light LEDs."

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 04:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 18, 2019, 03:47:06 amThe segments don't seem to be damaged; it is just that the surface finish didn't stay on the panels. They probably repurpose the Solaroad segments after putting a new surface finish on them but this time likely in lane with lighter traffic first. AFAIK this was the first field test with heavy traffic so chances of problems occuring where high to begin with.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 05:58:18 am
content: Ho, Ho, Ho, Merry xmas!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 08:59:16 am
content: Uh, they supposedly have a heater in the modules but all I see is a little hole in the snowWhy don't we take it to the next level.Invent superconducting solar roadways. They must be kept very cold.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 09:05:55 pm
content: TF says that the lighter area around the panels looks like a dry patch from being heated.I would offer a different hypothesis - it's salt they spread around in anticipation of the snow, hoping that would melt it.In any case, it's not working.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2020, 08:59:14 am
content: And we have a first failure. A bright pixel: