I have hit a dead end with my learning of electronics... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 09:50:23 am
content: I have hit a dead end with my learning of electronics. I have currently read a few books which are directed at beginners like me who want to get started in electronics. The problem is that somewhere around the middle of the book, I start to lose my understanding in the circuits in the book, I attempt to re read, but no positive results. Has anybody else stumbled upon this problem? Is there something that I can do about this?

author: DonRon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:03:10 am
content: Hi Mint,my experience:Learning by reading books only is very hard ... so I always try to do some practical exercises. Build some simple circuits and try to understand how they work. Run the circuits, make measurements, modify it ... measure again. And then read again in the book to understand what I observed.So learning by doing ... that's the way I like most.Cheers,Ronald

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:13:11 am
content: Find books that teach youtheory& givemathematical examples.Don't read a page & say"Yeah,I understand that!"----go through the worked examples & do the maths yourself.(If your maths are a bit rusty do some revision).Carefully study the schematics shown on the page,see if you understand them,or need to learn more fundamentals.Get other books & cross check between them.Often,some books are weak on particular points,or gloss them over.If you are puzzled,look it up on the 'Net ( Don't always trust the Internet,though), or check in yet another book at the public library.Find a mentor,if you can,-----what the Hams call an Elmer.Ask some of the grumpy OFs on this forum,or on QRZ.com---If they think you are making a real effort to work something out,& not just wanting it "on a plate", the old grumps will be very helpful.VK6ZGOPS: Also follow Ronald's exellent advice!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:21:04 am
content: Same answer you ignored just a few days ago when you asked:patiencefocusattention to detail

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:32:23 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 28, 2012, 10:21:04 amThank you kind sir.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:32:53 am
content: Quote from: Mint. on January 28, 2012, 09:50:23 amDon't just read - read and do. Build the example circuits. Experiment. Make mistakes. Measure things. Calculate. Make notes. Build things. Etc.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:49:03 am
content: I had difficulty until I decided to brave the maths, after that it was easier (but still tedious).Its a clumsy way of presenting material if you rain formulas in lieu of explaining things. Yeah yeah math is the language of nature and I like it but it is still not human readable enough to do the job of explaining things, it distracts. I could never visualize the electrons around an atom until I saw the animations of the lobed orbit. When I did it made sense in 3 seconds.I don't believe there are no easier ways to get across some of the complicated material, we just haven't found them yet for some of the stuff.

author: Lesolee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:50:29 am
content: Quote from: Mint. on January 28, 2012, 09:50:23 amWhy would you WANT to "learn electronics"? I learned because I wanted todostuff. Just learning for the sake of it seems boring (to me at least). Now if you have a goal to do something then that is different. If you want to make your curtains open using the internet that is a goal, a purpose, something to achieve. But "I want to learn Boolean algebra" just 'cos I saw it in a book seems, well ... boring. I'm sure you have some goal you haven't mentioned. Maybe if you spell it out, even to yourself, that might help you to understand what the next step should be.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:53:26 am
content: Understand all the basic "building block" circuits first. Not being able to "understand" more complicated circuits, means you don't fully understand the basic building blocks. But really understanding the basic building blocks can take a long time, so don't get discouraged.And as others have said, build stuff up and measure and play, and fail, and troubleshoot. Rinse and repeat.Keep doing that for 10 yearsDave.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 11:40:11 am
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on January 28, 2012, 10:49:03 amI hadn't intended to come across as pushing formulae,but they are needed.Ididsay "books that teach youtheory& give mathematical examples."I also urged the study of schematics to gain an understanding of their meaning.You & I are probably similar,in that some concepts are fairly intuitive,so we can visualise a phase difference between two signals,or as you said,the electrons around an atom,whereas some other people would have to have it expressed mathematically.This ability was actually an obstacle to me in learning to express things mathematically,while others had no problem.You really need the best of both worlds,as fundamentals,such as Ohm's Law cannot be used conveniently unless you can manipulate the maths,but the basic concept must be understood,or I=V/R is just another equation.VK6ZGO

author: McMonster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 11:55:30 am
content: In the long run theory didn't always worked for me. I always had to try, screw something up and poke around with multimeter and oscilloscope, repeat until I really feel I know how this work. Then go to the theory books (Google and Art of Electronics come first) and learn the details and "how to calculate this so it fits". Sometimes I also have a great circuit idea first and learn things (the way I described) as I needed them, I would come nowhere if I focused on building circuits that don't need some knowledge I didn't learn before.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 12:27:06 pm
content: Quote from: Mint. on January 28, 2012, 09:50:23 amWhat exactly are you having trouble with? If you give an example, you might find someone on here to guide you through.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 12:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 28, 2012, 11:40:11 amThat's often the case and it reinforces the previous suggestions of learning from multiple sources. No two tutors/Mentors will explain a piece of knowledge in exactly the same way. Lord Bored above stated the principles correctly, and perseverance is one of the big ones no matter how you go about it, but often looking for another explanation of the same problem can reduce it to something you'll soon find trivial.Ask your sister for directions and she will likely use hairdressers as waypoints ask some guy from college and the waypoints will be hotels and skate parks. I can remember high school math being about as exciting as white noise, but when applied it becomes both fun and trivial. Calculating for the sake of it is drudgery of the worst kind, but use those same kinds of calculations to work out what is limiting your quarter mile ET or to correctly design a non rectangular speaker box to a specific volume. Tronixstuff emphasised doing rather than just trying to cram knowledge and this is the only way you truly get a hold of any subject, application! It is also the most enjoyable way.I know things can be difficult when there isn't much budget to play with, but it is suprising how much you learn from doing all kinds of little projects.One of the real problems I see is, is the level of beginner projects some are attempting and I can see how many will hit dead ends. A Solar Powered Large Hadron Collider may not be the best choice for a newbie project, neither will be a solo attempt to reverse engineer the entire workings of version whatever of an x-box or playstation. Seeing actual realisation of your projects is seldom boring, look at the Gurus here and most have container loads of less adventurous projects they have cut their teeth on building up to their more complex creations.There has never been as many available resources as there is today, and even the suspect ones can be a learning experience. For most this becomes more than a hobby it's a passion and an attitude .

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 12:52:17 pm
content: also, try something like falstads circuit simulator, its a more freindly (albeit less perfect than spice) way of testing out designs, and concepts, say you see something in a text book and wonder, how does that work, it just gives that little bit more help, as it even has a bunch of samples

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 01:53:44 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 28, 2012, 12:47:17 pmActually what many people miss is that mathematics itself is quite beyond drudgery and computation. Mathematics is all about relationships and interactions, in fact the whole science is about that (naturally). The problem is that we were told wrongly in school that maths = mathematical notation. The truth is that nature doesn't give a rat's ass about notation, but only mathematicians used to know that.Recently a very inspired genius choose to enlighten us about this very fact. Those who didn't already know her should check outVihart's channel on youtube. I'd like to hear what you think about her approach to mathematics.My thinking is that if Maxwell's equations had their own Vi there wouldn't be a need for this thread today. We need more people like her.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 02:34:27 pm
content: +1 for preseverance, you don't really hit dead ends in learning until you are dead in the literal sense.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 03:05:55 pm
content: Mint,Lots of excellent advice, so I will try something different.I think I remember you working on some LM317 circuits. Because the chip does so much internally, you do not learn all that much. So I will give you a challenge to work out a solution to a problem using LM317's that is really neat, and you will definitely learn about electronics if feel like having a go.Problem: The voltage range of a LM317 linear supply is limited by heat dissipation. How can you double the output voltage range without increasing the maximum total heat dissipation by much? The solution I am suggesting is a clever idea used in the HP 6227B power supply and would be based on two LM317 regulators, and two power diodes. The idea would also work with the LT3080 regulators that Dave is using.If it sounds interesting, I can give you some information to get you started, and you know you can always get help here.Richard

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 08:09:16 pm
content: I thank everybody for their input. You all have been very kind to me. I will follow all of the tips that you gave me and I think the main idea that I have missed is that I should experiment and measure things more and I think that is probably the best way to go if I think about it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 08:34:16 pm
content: same problem here, maybe due to age. so what i did is just tinker the circuit until it work. i only remember to open the book (or ask question in blog whichever comes first) and try to concentrate if i already smoked some passive elements.

author: DaMaDo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:09:13 am
content: I feel the same way you do Mint. My problem is with transistors at the moment. I understand the physics of it, but am struggling with the various applications. Calc 3 and physics w/ calc are slowing my electronic progress also =(One book I feel has helped me a lot isMake: Electronicsbecause it teaches almost completely by actually building circuits.For the math (very basic) side of it,Electricity and Electronicsis a good read, but a bit dated as a 2000 print. The chapter on transistors has me a bit lost. I'm currently building a 34V AC-DC power supply from this book and it does an ok job of explaning things, except the floating ground concept used in this design, but amspire and IanB helped me with that on this forum.I enjoyed the Make: Electronics book because your always making something, but it wasn't very "deep" at all, but fun. The Electricity and Electronics book was a lot more detailed and is full of equations (non-calculus), but it too is enjoyable because it quickly led to building this power supply...which surprisingly works without me killing myself. Although the regulator section is still in the breadboard stage. The 'second stage' of the book takes you through building a really nice audio amplifier, but I'm not very interested in that.Hopefully I'll be a lot further ahead once I finish those two books.Another book that's teaches through application isElectronic Circuits for the Evil Genius. It looks pretty good. I might have to get that one after also.For those into calculus and diffEQ there'sBasic Electronics for Scientists and Engineersthat hopefully one day I'll read, although it's theory.

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:44:12 am
content: Quote from: DaMaDo on January 29, 2012, 12:09:13 amHello DaMaDoI have read Make: Electronics and I agree that it is an excellent read to get a feel on what you are going to be doing later on if you continue electronics, however I felt that the descriptions lacked detailed explanations, but like you mentioned it was a fun read for myself too.The other book that you mentioned Electronic Circuits for the Evil Genius is a very poorly made book in my opinion and I would advise you to stay away from this book. The content is very poor and the pages are very hard to follow. Take a quick look of the full book on Google Books:http://books.google.com.au/books?id=HAkdt2CHCTIC&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=falseI will further look into the other two books that you have mentioned and I thank you for your suggestions.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 01:12:59 am
content: I think one of the better ways to learn about electronics is to study small, but interesting circuits, and try to understand how they work mathematically. Then proceed building them and observe how they work in the physical world. Try tweaking and changing the parameters of the circuit to alter its behaviour. Compare that change of behaviour with the theoretical model and see if you can predict the same change mathematically. Having something tangible in your hands; that is, something you can actually play with, is a lot more fun and rewarding then trying to cram theory into your head all the time. You learn better when you actually have fun.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 01:33:53 am
content: Quote from: Mint. on January 28, 2012, 08:09:16 pmNot sure if somebody already mentioned it but tear downs of old electronic gadgets are fun. Look for circuits you see in your book.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 03:58:29 am
content: Quote from: DaMaDo on January 29, 2012, 12:09:13 amDon't get bogged down in the physics of transistors,although it is very interesting.Just regard the transistor as a "black box" which has certain parameters.The very name "transistor" comes from "transfer-resistance",so it has a transfer function--whatever signal you put into the base has a corresponding effect on the collector(& emitter) current.In other words, they allow a quite small input signal to control a very much larger current,with consequent gain.Although they are quite different in construction to BJTs & their input & output impedances are different,FETs & vacuum tubes appear as similar devices to the external circuitry.The biasing circuits for NPN & PNP transistors are usually derived from formulae,but if you forget the formula,you can work it out from basics.VK6ZGO

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 04:34:41 am
content: I have a degree in EE, but eventually lost interest in Electronics. I believe it's all because of my lousy school's "theory only" approach, without much practical projects. Well, I am to be blamed as well, I could have endeavored into my own projects.But anyway, I have moved on to software/firmware field instead, and into the world of DSP. So, EE knowledge is still somehow used, so I felt it's a good combo between what I've learned for 5 years (EE) and something that still interests me everyday (SW Engineering).Most will comment "isn't that a waste, doing something that is out of your field" though, but I beg to differ.

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:03:51 am
content: "Principles and Applications of Electrical Engineering" by Giorgio Rizzoni is a good introductory textbook at the university level. It will give you a mathematical understanding of a lot of the basic building blocks. Instead of just knowing "what" something does, you can understand "why". Once you get a deeper understanding of some things, a lot of previously learned concepts suddenly make a lot more sense.If you don't want to pay the $100 or so to buy the physical book, you can probably find a PDF copy on Library Genesis (google it).

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:28:59 am
content: Quote from: metalphreak on January 29, 2012, 05:03:51 amIs it an illegal site? :O

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 05:49:36 am
content: the way transistors clicked for me was when someone explained that the beta is the multiplication factor of the base current, e.g. 1mA on the base a transistor with a beta of 100 means it conducts 100mA, just as a tid bit for those that are struggling to understand them,

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 06:33:35 am
content: If you think video lectures or web-based courses will be helpful then check out IIT NPTEL. (Google it.)The Indian Institute of Technology has made hundreds of their courses available online for free. You can get entire 40 to 50 hour video lectures that cover everything from the basics to advanced electronics. They have courses on both analog and digital electronics, computer science, mathematics, etc.The professors are actually very knowledgeable. IIT was founded by MIT alumni.

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 06:40:27 am
content: Quote from: TerminalJack505 on January 29, 2012, 06:33:35 amI'm not being racist or anything, however I do not watch course videos with Indian professors, their accents are horrible and I can't understand anything!

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 06:48:12 am
content: Quote from: Mint. on January 29, 2012, 06:40:27 amLOL. Fair enough.I had trouble with their accents at first but I quickly got used to them.

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 11:12:17 am
content: There's plenty of good videos on iTunes U (U for University). Basically recorded lectures from Stanford and MIT amongst others.The ones taught by Anant Agarwal are pretty entertaining. In one lecture he brings in an electric chainsaw out of nowhere to demonstrate noise back into the grid. In another, he uses some kind of photo transistor to play a britney spears song wirelessly xDHe has a bit of an accent but he's not hard to understand (its like a mix of indian/pakistani and american). I actually watched some of his videos because I couldn't understand anything the lecturer at my uni was saying...

author: DaMaDo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 01:35:06 am
content: You can also get them direct from MIT's website:http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/I think Dave made a video about getting your whole "degree" that way.

author: Mint.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 02:15:39 am
content: Quote from: DaMaDo on January 30, 2012, 01:35:06 amIs it really possible getting a whole degree that way? I mean like with an official certificate or whatever you get when you finish the course?

author: DaMaDo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2012, 02:31:00 am
content: No, that's why I put it in quotesHere'sDave's video