Cheapo clock tear up. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 06:51:54 pm
content: I used to use an old style, “analog” wall clock. It was definitely inexpensive and did not keep time particularly well. Purchased some ~20 years ago, it eventually found its way into storage (and yes, I did remove the battery first). It worked, more or less, and had served its purpose.For some reason, I decided that I wanted to once again use that old style clock face. So, I took it out and inserted a fresh battery and…nothing.Investigating further, I quickly found the culprit – oxidation on the (-) terminal. Scraping that off, resolved the problem and I could see the pulsing gear movement.That first gear, nearest the coil, has a magnet inside. I removed it from its place and inverted it in the picture.So, the circuitry under the blob, amplifies the crystal oscillation pulses to drive the coil – right? Nice little neat design.These are more interesting electronically than I had realized, but then again, I am easily amused sometimes.I still will reinstate an old style face clock, but not this one. Instead I ordered anotherhttps://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-WT-3102S-Silver-Atomic/dp/B000AMCAUGwith radio setting. I have a wrist-watch with such a receiver that does, in fact, work well enough to never have to set. I am hoping that this one will be as good.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 07:07:32 pm
content: Pretty close, the crystal runs at ~32768Hz (215), which conveniently divides down to 1 pulse per second with simple divide by two logic, that is then amplified to drive the stepper motor.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 07:29:14 pm
content: No, I don't think you got that right at all. Not about the crystal, about a stepper motor. That gear is not attached to the shaft of a motor. There is no stepper motor or motor at all. Movement is accomplished by two magnets. One is a permanent magnet inside the base of that first gear. The other is an electromagnet (i.e., that coil). Energizing the coil creates a repelling magnetic pulse that moves the gear - perhaps my non-EE terms leave something to be desired.So, beyond the crystal oscillator, it would seem that electromagnet pulse width needs to be fairly precisely specified so that only a single gear-tooth move is produced - that is what I think is so neat.EDIT: Also, I really don't want this to be an argument thread or, just as bad, an "I know more than you thread so I am going to correct you". I think I have the operation of this right. If you KNOW you have it right than feel free to explain and all will benefit. But, please, appreciate that I went through the trouble of taking and posting pictures of something that I though was interesting and entertaining.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 07:42:30 pm
content: Its a single coil stepper. The magnet aligns with the coil's core poles. Reverse the coil drive and the magnet will turn to align its next pole, overshooting slightly due to inertia. Somewhere in the mechanism there will be some sort of ratchet or friction clutch device that prevents it running back to bring the magnet in exact alignment with the core poles, so that the direction is predictable.If the mechanism is otherwise in decent condition, that would be a good candidate to convert to aVetinari clock.The higher supply voltage will overcome any slight stickiness in the mechanism and you can compensate for the crystal's measured frequency error in the code.GNU Pterry

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 08:01:48 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on January 04, 2022, 07:42:30 pmOhhh ok, I gottya, what you are saying is "Movement is accomplished by two magnets. One is a permanent magnet inside the base of that first gear. The other is an electromagnet (i.e., that coil). Energizing the coil creates a repelling magnetic pulse that moves the gear"- thanks so much for the official explanation

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 08:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on January 04, 2022, 07:42:30 pm^ This.Except that the permanent magnet poles will be 90 degrees offset from the two coil poles by the ratchet.The ratchet mechanism can be seen on the third gear wheel (the two crescent-shaped thingys with a hook at the end).

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 08:15:29 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 04, 2022, 08:04:38 pmOK, thanks, I must have been on drugs to think that "Movement is accomplished by two magnets. One is a permanent magnet inside the base of that first gear. The other is an electromagnet (i.e., that coil). Energizing the coil creates a repelling magnetic pulse that moves the gear"So glad nobody validates that position... JFC sometimes you nerds...I'll tell ya

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 08:19:37 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavet-type_stepping_motor

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 08:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on January 04, 2022, 08:19:37 pmPretty close.Please explain why "Movement is accomplished by two magnets. One is a permanent magnet inside the base of that first gear. The other is an electromagnet (i.e., that coil). Energizing the coil creates a repelling magnetic pulse that moves the gear" is incorrect. Thanks, I notice that was missing. Third time I am asking in the thread....Beuler...beuler..Please read this link:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shift-mind/201103/why-is-it-so-important-be-right

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 09:16:54 pm
content: Erm... puts on hat and leaves (not tin foil, but Borsalino).

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 09:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 04, 2022, 09:16:54 pmBuh-Bye - here take this link with ya...https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/addiction-and-recovery/201907/stop-seeking-validation-others

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 09:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on January 04, 2022, 09:23:51 pmAhh yes, such a dazzling comeback - amazing, yet so predictable.... buh-bye and I know either of those links and shiny penny will keep you occupied.Next?Please explain why "Movement is accomplished by two magnets. One is a permanent magnet inside the base of that first gear. The other is an electromagnet (i.e., that coil). Energizing the coil creates a repelling magnetic pulse that moves the gear" is incorrect. Thanks, I notice that was missing. Fourth time I am asking in the thread.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 09:38:04 pm
content: Its only repulsion for the first half of each step. Once the rotor has moved 90 decrees. the force is better described as magnetic attraction.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:05:02 pm
content: What was said by me, was, in fact, correct and pretty much everyone around here can figure that out.To call it a stepper motor and then a Lavet stepper motor is simple intellectualizationhttps://www.dictionary.com/browse/intellectualization,the original response was, at best misleading and at worst just plain wrong - that is my opinion and I have yet to see anyone type anything at all in this thread to make me change my mind - and if that were to happen, I would not have any difficulty standing corrected.Hanging your hat on trivial details which are not at issue makes it difficult to find your hat when you leave.What I said was correct and the point is how difficult it is for the you to even admit as much - I guess I would add the "liker" who could not muster enough gonad to respond in any other way.What I have learned is that there are many people on this forum who have a lot of expertise and it is those folks that I predominantly read and attend to - most often when I am not even in the thread. Most impressive is when they demonstrate that the expertise is accompanied by an emotional IQ above their age.All too common is the - "I didn't really read (or think) much but I am going to jump in to correct what has been written, no matter if I don't know what I am talking about and no matter that it has already been said or anything else...I'm jumping in - no qualifications at all...just jumping in with the wishful wisdom that exists only in their minds".When that is questioned, I understand that it is annoying and it can sting a bit, you want to jump in and tear me a new one (too late now). I am ok with that. To those folks, block me, please, I will do the same...but also please know that I wouldn't be slapping you around if I thought you were half the expert you act like you are.If you were you could have figured out how to respond to the query, repeatedly posted, and you would understand why you should have done so.Peace and no leaves.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:05:35 pm
content: I had to replace our kitchen clock with that exact movement a few months back. The tiny plastic pivot pin on the top of that first gear had completely worn away - the shock loading of starting and stopping the second hand is quite high.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:20:22 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 10:05:02 pmOk, let's check out your responses then. You said:Quote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 07:29:14 pmSo you seem to be saying that you don't think it is some kind of stepper motor.Which would seem to be in disagreement, with other posters and the wiki article.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 11:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 04, 2022, 10:20:22 pmPredictable arrogance that literally makes my point. You have nothing at all to contribute other than a ridiculous attempt to correct - that is your purpose and I seriously doubt you have ever made a living doing it.Let's actually read what I wrote....not your cut and paste of part of what I wrote in a pathetic attempt to ... oh nevermind, you wouldn't understand anyways.Quote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 07:29:14 pmLook at the first pph:No, I don't think you got that right at all. Not about the crystal, about a stepper motor. That gear is not attached to the shaft of a motor. There is no stepper motor or motor at all. Movement is accomplished by two magnets. One is a permanent magnet inside the base of that first gear. The other is an electromagnet (i.e., that coil). Energizing the coil creates a repelling magnetic pulse that moves the gear - perhaps my non-EE terms leave something to be desired.Note that I said that I don't *think* he got it right - see what I did there? Let me spell it out - it says I don't think I am the smartest MFer around, but this is what I see... Then proceeded to explain clearly what I saw and I did that correctly - you just can't admit it that. You with your "seems to", have decided that ANYTHING THAT PULSES IS A STEPPER MOTOR. This ill-advised and opportunistic mischaracterization complete ignores, like your buddy, what most people on this board think of as a stepper motor. You know that and you know that is a point and one that you can't cover when you put your hat on as you leave.Instead of anything resembling a civil response which would include ADMITTING that what I said here is absolutely correct:"Movement is accomplished by two magnets. One is a permanent magnet inside the base of that first gear. The other is an electromagnet (i.e., that coil). Energizing the coil creates a repelling magnetic pulse that moves the gear".There was a correction, erroneous as it is. followed up with a drive by link - the true mark of the weak-minded who have only the time to correct...in their own minds.In my second pph..."So, beyond the crystal oscillator, it would seem that electromagnet pulse width needs to be fairly precisely specified so that only a single gear-tooth move is produced - that is what I think is so neat."I again am being, at least, fundamentally, accurate and am trying to set a pleasant tone.Finally, I edited the post adding the 3rd pph because I knew it could go the way that it did. That too is not something that you "seem" to grasp.In my original, well before your sophomoric summary of what "seems" to be.... So, the circuitry under the blob, amplifies the crystal oscillation pulses to drive the coil – right? Nice little neat design.That is absolutely true and nothing that you have said or anyone in this thread has said refutes that at all.Now any civil response by anyone with an IQ and an EQ above that of a leafy green vegetable, and any true expert, anyone with any successful record of communication, anyone who is sincere, would have stated - YES, when you say,"Movement is accomplished by two magnets. One is a permanent magnet inside the base of that first gear. The other is an electromagnet (i.e., that coil). Energizing the coil creates a repelling magnetic pulse that moves the gear".You are correct....and....______.That is the point - the "corrector" is not intellectually or emotionally inclined to do such a thing as it would defeat the reason they are responding in the first place.But if you had, then you could come up with whatever contribution you wanted to add....it's a stepper motor, not in the usual sense as there is no shaft that the gear is connected to like the ones you have probably used, or...this is an old design and works so well it is all over the place, and so on and so forth.You, again, could not do that - ask yourself why you could not do that - ask yourself why you still can't do that - I know why and sometimes I am inclined to simply call that crap out and I have already provided some drive-by links for you to go read, but, it "seems" like you disagree with them. It "seems" like you are an absolute expert on what things "seem" like. To me, it "seems" like you are just spewing disingenuous BS because you are not intellectually capable of addressing the issue in any other way.Regardless, I can help you out by simply not responding to any more of your posts and perhaps the best thing I can tell you is that yes, I agree, to you it must *seem* like that.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 11:47:47 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 11:32:56 pmAre they posting while drunk, too tired, had a really bad day, or something ?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 01:56:02 am
content: I still ask myself, why....https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/cheap-clock-repair-why/

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 02:13:04 am
content: Lots of entertainment for such a limited subject. I have taken apart quite a few of this type of movement and the number of minor variations on the basic idea is actually kind of impressive. Why bother looking? Standard answer, the same curiosity that led me into an engineering career.While I have several times contemplated programming up a micro to do some fancier functions than these things do, i just keep buying one of these movements when I want to make a clock. They do the job very well. In my experience they are usually accurate enough to last until the next daylight savings time forced adjustment and they are far cheaper than the pieces I would have to buy for functionality that isn't that compelling.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 02:54:41 am
content: Quote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 11:32:56 pmThe mechanism is designed so the pulse width doesn't matter.QuoteI think that statement is so vague, that you can't really say it's correct or incorrect as a whole. However, the part where you say the coil repels is incorrect, so doesn't that mean the statement is not "absolutely correct"?Even if we agreed it was correct, I don't see how it's useful in understanding the mechanism.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 03:10:37 am
content: Quote from: edavid on January 05, 2022, 02:54:41 amWell, I believe you went you say that you don't see how it is useful and that is OK, but I don't think your post is useful in understanding anything that interests me - not unlike your inability to understand that you alone are not the only one who understands that a 6501 is not the same as a 6500/01 as from your missive from a few weeks ago. Thanks so much for reminding me of your nickname.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 03:28:43 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 05, 2022, 02:13:04 amSo happy that I could be the source of entertainment for you. I have lots of materialWhen I searched on that little clock box, I found hundreds of examples and was in the process of trying to locate the patent on this one.One thing that I do want to comment on is your statementsQuoteNow, I am not trying to insult you and I trust you know that I would not be too subtle if I were, but those statements whether intended or not, really illustrate to me, some difference between an EE and a Behavioral Scientist. Now, I am happy that curiosity about anything captured your focus, I always am happy to hear about that, assuming the curiosity was not about unscrupulous activities.I was going to throw the clock out. It was old and crusty and somewhat yellowed. Yes, I did fix it (if you call identifying some oxidation on a contact and cleaning it off, fixing), but that was not going to rejuvenate the age and I did not care to find out if it lost even more accuracy. My point is that such an experience, for me, was driven by a simple curiosity that I have had all my life about anything and it would never inspire me to go into EE.Instead, the pathological behaviors (my opinion) of folks who become keyboard warriors believing that they are operating anonymously is just one of a kazillion aspects of human behavior that inspired me to go into and stay into the Neurosciences - something I have never regretted over decades of work which I call the best work a person could have - trying to understand the nervous system.Hey, different strokes for different folks - just saying and, of course, it is what it is

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 03:30:25 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 05, 2022, 01:56:02 amIt is a bit like the question, does Bill Gates bother to pick up a $10 note, he accidentally drops ?Which he got asked (or similar), and he said "He would", if I remember correctly.I guess we learn (and/or keep in practice) from doing such repairs, and somehow it feels bad/wasteful/sinful to just throw such items away.I'm often curious how they work. How come they are so cheap to manufacture ?But especially, how come they manage to last, for perhaps a year, on a relatively small AA battery, despite (slowly) spinning round all those hands, throughout the year, with a (usually) inefficient motor (or stepper mechanism).

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 03:39:30 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 05, 2022, 01:56:02 amThat was an interesting thread and I think you you did a good job - happy wife, happy life.I had no sentimental attachment to this piece of junk (no reference to any wife, ex or otherwise) and I only wish I could remember how much I paid for it - my guess is no more than $5-$6. I suppose I should have put it back together and given it to some starving student whose cell phone battery needed replacement and apple watch got stolen.I was ready to put it back up and stopped myself. It never did work well and, unlike some wines, I can't believe that 20+ years of ageing would improve this. I disliked having to manually correct the time and it was not particularly ornate in any way. Time to treat myself to an $18 upgrade - living the dream eh? So, hopefully the receiver to Colorado (and it touts some DST switches) on the new one does work and it is as good as it looks online.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 05:49:38 am
content: Quote from: DrG on January 05, 2022, 03:28:43 amSorry my response.offended you. Have a nice day.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 07:31:01 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 05, 2022, 05:49:38 amOh come on, do you really think your response above the handful of crap I read (e.g., this circuit is resistant to pulse width - I know because umm I designed it and here is the link and I'm really a big deal so just believe me and act like I know more than I do). Your post, in contrast, was nothing like that. I think you were just trying to talk about what fun it is to be curious and how it inspired you to pursue a career in that field.Nevertheless, I think it is important to stand up to weapons-grade arrogance and delusional SME without any demonstration of commensurate accomplishment AND factual basis with the issue at hand. People secure in what they know and what they don't know, do not act that way and in my experience it is a meaningful predictor.That a small group band together and like each other's posts and rely on the royal we and a bunch of well know and quite tired defenses does not bother me at all - they are not used to being taken to task and rely on one or two sentence replies in hope that someone will come around to save them and then they flock to liking the posts - it is expected. They can't stand up for themselves so they just make crap up.These are folks that I have now blocked and I am happy to do that. It is a great feature because they have little to offer me and are, in my view, recalcitrant. Yes, pathological behavior has always interested me but sometimes an asshole is just an asshole and when they are so simple to predict, having to see all that crap is little more than a waste of time. Now, I don't always know somebody's reputation on here from their nickname and have to refresh my memory, but I don't ever remember seeing such arrogance from you and I have no reason to not engage.If you sincerely think that you offended me, please know that you did not. If I offended you somehow, even vicariously, please also know that I am not apologizing for anything that I wrote - I meant all of it (well, save some typos and grammar) and nobody is forced to read any posts let alone respond to them.You have a great day also.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 07:35:50 am
content: What on earth is this guy rambling on about ?Are they crazy or something ?

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 07:50:45 am
content: Quote from: DrG on January 05, 2022, 07:31:01 am

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 08:36:07 am
content: I have a couple different analog clocks and replaced the movements with some that have WWVB receiver built in so they set themselves and keep excellent time.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 02:41:28 pm
content: Quote from: basinstreetdesign on January 05, 2022, 07:50:45 amI have to sincerely thank you for that as it is the most that I have laughed in at least three days. I have no idea who you are and don’t ever recall discussing anything with you or even reading one of your posts other than this one.Yet, in a thread that I started, you post, quoting, literally, hundreds of words. Not just mine but from another poster as well….and your contribution: A single emoji. There is no editing your way out of that.I think it is absolutely fantastic; I already sent it to a couple of friends.It is as though you are holding up a sign that says “Sycophant with lips looking for butt to kiss” or maybe “C’mon guys, can I be in the club, can I, huh, can I”.If you are trying to get me to put you on an ignore list, you have got to do much better than that. I can’t in good conscience ignore someone on the basis of a single emoji, it’s just not right. You have to use your words and not just an FU. There have to be more words than that, strung together in a sentence. Maybe even use two or three sentences. Aim high.Now I’m not making any promises, but if you can make a really snappy comeback, I will at least consider it because; I believe you have potential - you just have to apply yourself.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 02:45:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 05, 2022, 08:36:07 amThat is encouraging. If I am to believe Amazon, I will have it very soon and will, of course, test out whether it can receive. It really only needs to do this every few days or even less often than that. As I mentioned, I do have an old wrist watch (with outdated DST code) that does, occasionally get reception so I know my location is not out of the question.Were the modules you got strictly for clocks? I have, on occasion, thought about getting something that I could interface, e.g.,https://universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-60khz-atomic-clock-receiver-module-wwvb-msf-jjy60/This is probably more of a vestigial desire from reading Popular Electronics years ago and marveling at the receiver projects, rather than a real need although it would be kind of cool to have my own local time server. Yes, I know I can go through my router and get to NIST – done that lots of times.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 03:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on January 05, 2022, 03:10:37 amI didn't think that I was the only one who understood it, I just thought that you didn't understand it. Again, because your post was too vague.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 04:00:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 05, 2022, 08:36:07 amIs there a particular model of movement you can recommend?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 04:05:52 pm
content: QuoteI got around to doing that once. It kind of worked, but positioning was critical and I wound up having to stagger writes to the oLED display otherwise the signals in the ribbon cable would interfere with the RF decoding. But commercial clocks with similar gubbins also suffer from that (we seem to be in an RF hollow - even TV reception is dodgy), and the clocks typically only sync at night and when most of the toys are turned off.If I were needing to do it again, I wouldn't really consider it. With easy WiFi you can do faultless ntp on demand, and if you're even lacking that a cheap GPS module would likely be sufficient. Ain't gonna run for 10 years off an AA, though.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 05:57:55 pm
content: .

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 08:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 05, 2022, 07:35:50 amI think so. The complete and utter lack of self-awareness in DrG’s posts here, accusing others (who did nothing wrong) of precisely the things he’s doing… classicprojection, perhaps with a bit of gaslighting thrown in for good measure.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 08:16:46 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 07:29:14 pmPosting an interesting original post doesn’t give you the right to be the colossal asshole you’ve been to every single person who replied to you here.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 07:02:07 am
content: Quote from: edavid on January 05, 2022, 04:00:38 pmI don't remember what one I bought but I read a review comparing 5 or so different ones. I think I ended up ordering it fromhttps://www.klockit.com/.I have no affiliation with them, just a happy customer.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 09:31:19 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on January 05, 2022, 05:57:55 pmIf I remember correctly. When the battery, eventually gives up the ghost, but before changing to a fresh AA battery. The clock can go into this funny mode. Whereby it lacks the strength to operate correctly, so the time remains fixed at some point. But the clicking (ticking) and seconds hand, continue, where it flutters, between say, 29 seconds and 30 seconds, then 29, 30, 29, 30 ...Which I assume, is perhaps related to the mechanism of being able to go backwards, if the pulses were arranged in the way you describe.It sounds like a fun and cool project, to make a typical mechanical/analogue (battery) clock, run backwards in time. Presumably if you re-arrange the digits on the face, it could read the time correctly, but backwards.The (typically) black blob IC (chip on board, COB), is also of special interest for me. I sometimes wonder how fast it could be clocked, as it would make a powerful binary counter/divider. If they can be adjusted, to correct for quartz crystal calibration errors at the factory (some people seem to say they can be, but I haven't seen a definitive source, that I remember). Then there must be something more complicated inside, I wonder what ?. Maybe a further binary counter, and (presumably) some kind of mechanism (really cheap in massive bulk quantities), that allows it to retain the calibration setting. Perhaps an array of diodes/zeners (blown to change the bit, by high voltage pulses, at the factory), like very early PROM devices.Surely the price point, doesn't allow it to be an OTP MCU, which would be an obvious solution, but a bit too expensive for that kind of application. On the other hand, there are thread(s) here about $0.03 MCUs, so maybe.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 09:38:56 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 05, 2022, 08:16:46 pmIn my observation in this thread. If your very first post (or maybe later ones), disagrees at all, with his opinion and/or (apparently) massive list of weird rules and regulations. He immediately adds you to his ignore list, replies to your post, but the post ends with words to the effect, 'I'm ignoring any responses you might make'.That is NOT the way friendly open/free forums, such as this one works. Especially technical forums.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 01:38:50 pm
content: QuoteWe had a clock which, when the battery was low, was OK on the 0-30 side but lost time on the 31-60 side, presumably due to a very small imbalance in the second hand.We do actually have a clock that I had written off as not worth taking more effort over than clicking a 'buy now' link on Amazon - it seems to work but gradually loses time, and not at a trivial rate. Thanks to this thread maybe I'll dig into it and see if it can be saved...

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 04:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on January 05, 2022, 04:05:52 pmAgreed. The WiFi route makes sense and I have done that, but at least in my case, the controller logs onto my ISP through the router. At some times in the past that was a chronic problem. In fact, I even built and used a circuit to reset the router every night. Later, I had the router on a remote switch to reset it easily from various locations.True, my current router and ISP are much better and I almost never reset it for any reason at all, but to not have to rely on the ISP at all is a plus.Of course, that plus becomes a minus when some of the experiences you report occurs.I was looking again at this product during morning coffee,https://universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-60khz-atomic-clock-receiver-module-wwvb-msf-jjy60/and it still interests me. I was looking at some of the GitHub code for projects folks have used and it looks quite feasible to me (there is even an Arduino projecthttps://github.com/ahooper/WWVBClockand stand-alone projectsas well as stand-alone projectshttps://github.com/bhall66/WWVB-clock).But, I have no earthly idea how to evaluate how good or bad that antenna might be. It is not even clear to me if the new V3 version improved that aspect Can you [or anyone I am not ignoring] get a sense for how good it  from the specs they give...QuoteRight now I am still waiting for the new clock from Amazon which should come in tonight. If the WWVB works for the clock, I am thinking (rightly or wrongly) that the board would work also.I mean, it's not like I need another projectbut this is something that I find interesting.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 04:54:02 pm
content: QuoteSorry, it's meaningless to me! And I suspect only meaningful in comparison to something else. For $20 it could be a few evenings worth of fun decoding the signal. And waiting a couple of minutes for a stream to almost complete before detecting corruption.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 05:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on January 06, 2022, 01:38:50 pmThat makes perfect sense to me. I (vaguely) remember reading (or possibly a video) about that, quite a while back. There are reasons why the clock favors, stopping or running in some places rather than others. Unfortunately, I can't remember the details or exactly where I found out about it. It is a mechanical, rather than electronic phenomena. Something which very strong mechanical engineering types can perhaps pick up on.Since I can't remember it, I'll try guessing. It has to lift the hands up, and do that through the complicated and friction creating gears. So, some positions are wear it tends to rest, when it is almost fully out of having enough power to move the clock hands, correctly.Also, the radio data (time reference) clocks in the UK, at least my mechanical one. Can sometimes happily show completely the wrong time, or rather the minutes hand is correct, but the hours hand is completely wrong, without warning. This usually/always means it needs new batteries. Presumably, moving the hours hand reliably, needs a bit more power from the batteries, or something. Fascinating devices, anyway.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 05:42:21 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 04, 2022, 11:47:47 pmNo, posting while insane."Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” - Anon.Quote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 08:01:48 pmQuote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 08:15:29 pmQuote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 08:49:48 pmQuote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 09:33:58 pmQuote from: DrG on January 04, 2022, 11:32:56 pm

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 05:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 05, 2022, 08:16:46 pmLook, if you insist he stops doing the only thing he appears to know how to do, what is he going to have left?As he's so fond of attaching psychological labels to people, lets try this one onhimfor size:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 07:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on January 06, 2022, 05:42:21 pmYou were not being ignored by me previously (I promise I will add you to the list momentarily) and here is why; while I remember well your amateur solution to how to change behavior so many months ago, I did not put you on ignore because of your previously reasonable (and sometimes insightful, for a novice) posts on CoVid. I figured, why bother, maybe he has something worthwhile to add even though he knows less about behavior than a kitchen appliance.I like the ignore list feature. I have never responded to posts or even in a thread of some on the list. They are there because they have posted something so incredibly stupid, that I want to make sure I don't read whatever else they have to say. IOW it, and them, simply do not interest me. Others, like you, get on the ignore list because they are childish fuktards.I don't have the number of posts that some do, but it is not my first rodeo - I see this fuktard mentality all over the place. I have learned that the type-B fuktard behaves notably different than the type-A fuktard.If I get into it with a type-B fuktard, they leave me alone and I leave them alone. Neither one of us is particularly special and, believe it or not, I respect that way of behaving. There are lots of people I don't like and I am sure lots of people don't like me - I am ok with that - it is realistic and accepting that is healthy. There are so many people on boards, there is no reason to care a whole lot about that one way or the other. For the type-A fuktard, however, it is a different matter.There is an old American expression, "A hit dog will holler" - that describes exactly what you and a few others are doing - you are 'hollering'.Standing up to them, no matter how long ago, throws off their illusion of balance and self-worth and they remember so well that they just can't get past the experience.For the Type-A fuktard, to be ignored is the worst thing that can happen to them. They don't get the attention that they so desperately and pathetically crave. They can't leave it alone, they keep coming back for more confrontation - hoping, sadly, that if they can just get into it one more time, there will be a better outcome....and, of course, that never happens.That you and the few others can't get over your ass-kicking, no matter how long ago, is, indeed evidence of efficacy.Note that I don't bother with you or anyone on ignore because it is just not that important to me. I know that they are there and I can safely surmise that they are hollering - so what?Someone ignores me, I am fine with it. If they tell me that I am on their ignore list, I am fine with that and I would add them to mine so I can remember. That is why there are ignore lists.Note also that every time the type-A fuktard acts out publicly like you are doing now where you have nothing at all to contribute to the thread, go out of your way only to disrupt, sadly try to gang up and bully your way to what you hope will be a different outcome; you put on display exactly what I am talking about.You might feel better for the moment, but you remain a type-A fuktard and sooner, rather, than later, you will go through the same tantrums - when ever someone calls out your fuktardidness. In the classic sense, you can dish it out, but you can't take it and you can't get over it. That is not my fault and you would do better to direct your anger elsewhere...but you likely will not see it that way.I don't like you (and the 3-4 other type-A fuktards on my ignore list, so far) and I am never going to like you and I am never going to respect you. Accept that.I know that this post will piss you, (and those others) off and you (and those others) will holler some more...because, well, because you are type-A fuktards - again, that is not my fault. I have plenty of faults and there are plenty of things that are my fault, but your fuktardidess is simply not in that pot.So, yes, I will be cleaning type-A fuktard ass bits out of my boots sometimes but the type-A fuktard can't do anything but "holler".Many us have had to deal with plenty of type-A fuktards in real life. Consequential type-A fuktards, not impotent pissant keyboard warriors. Personally, I never, ever, let them bully me into going away. I will continue posting in this thread and any other that strikes my fancy because I am not breaking the rules and there is no reason why I should go away, no matter how much you wish for that - and, further, the fact is that there is not a damn thing you can do about it, but holler...and now you know that I will never see it.Life is tough son, wear a helmet and stop hollering.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 07:15:13 pm
content: LOL

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 07:24:30 pm
content: Oh, do you think I touched a nerve?Quote from: DrG on January 06, 2022, 07:10:37 pmIt doesn't piss me offat all, not in the least. I got exactly the kind of knee-jerk foul mouthed insulting response I expected. I wasn't expecting a quality, reasoned, insightful post, that would requireintellect. After watching your ongoing tirade in this thread, I just thought that your smug, self-satisfied ballon of an ego needed pricking. I can see that I succeeded.I don't normally give in to the base temptation to do that sort of thing but in your case I was prepared to make an exception.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 07:47:10 pm
content: Maybe we just don't feed the troll?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 01:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on January 06, 2022, 01:38:50 pmSo I took it apart, or tried to. The adjustment wheel what holding it together, but a bit of brute force broke that and allowed the case to come apart. Seems that the shaft of the adjuster locates on a small dowel, and it's the dowel that broke allowing the shaft to come out. I think the shaft should turn easily on that dowel, and since it didn't that would put a kind of brake on the minute hand. Presumably the gearing allowed the second hand to fight against it somewhat, but not completely successfully, thus leading to slow timekeeping.Naturally, the fix was to Cellotape the adjuster to the clock housing in case of future need.My partner would like to thank DrG for starting this thread and getting me to actually look at this damn thing which I've been ignoring for months in the hope it would walk itself to the trash bin.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 04:07:29 pm
content: It’s so cute how DrG thinks he’s “kicked” ass when in fact all he’s done is proved that he is one!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 04:10:22 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2022, 07:47:10 pmOr warn or ban him?It’s one thing for someone to react to deliberate jabs; it’s quite another for them to dish out endless condescension, insults, accusations, pseudo-psychological diagnoses (of which they themselves are actually the guilty party), etc in response to totally normal discussion, but then throw a fit whenever anyone dares call them out on it…

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 04:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 07, 2022, 04:07:29 pmI don't mind (I might even enjoy it), if someone wants to technically criticise my (or other peoples) posts. We can have some nice and educational discussions, which is what forums are for.But just to essentially generate a huge wall of text, which seems to be to justify and hide, the eventual swear word(s), they are using against other members. Is NOT good forum etiquette.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 04:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2022, 07:47:10 pmYou will get no more trouble from me and I am sorry that he called you and thanks much for being so diplomatic.I especially appreciate the wording; sane folks can see it as they (the axis of evil) are the trolls and they can believe the reverse (the big lie).Just a heads up though, we are going to publish (elsewhere of course) on my theory of fuktardidness. The modelling portion (appendixF: 3.F-3.S) includes three fictional characters; MT14, pooki and Cerebutt: The theory, all names, characters, and incidents portrayed in this model are fictitious. No identification with actual persons (living or deceased), places, buildings, and products is intended or should be inferred. –just saying

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 04:57:29 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on January 07, 2022, 04:38:42 pm… and then continues to cause trouble later in the same post…Quote from: DrG on January 07, 2022, 04:38:42 pmOh, the obliviousness here…Quote from: DrG on January 07, 2022, 04:38:42 pmClassy.Quote from: MK14 on January 07, 2022, 04:12:37 pmI completely agree. It’s not always fun to be get critical feedback or even be proven wrong, but if the feedback is factually correct, then I’ll learn from it, and for that I am grateful.Sometimes, it takes some verbal sparring to get to the root of a problem or solution, but that’s ok too.What I have little patience for is conceited idiots who insist you’re wrong even when you are demonstrably correct, and then flip out and call you names when you show them the proof that you’re right.Quote from: MK14 on January 07, 2022, 04:12:37 pmIndeed.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 06:06:51 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 07, 2022, 04:57:29 pmAnd sadly with some people they are incapable of taking any feedback whatsoever and just time and time again won't accept corrections in any form no matter how gross the errors they make, and if it is patently obvious to everybody including themselves that they have made a mistake, argue in circles until they start throwing accusations of bullying or vendettas around when people won't just agree with. I've just had to finally add someone I otherwise activelyliketo my ignore list on a certain forum after years of this and years of trying to steer them away from doing that. And in case someone thinks this is an excuse to hurl accusations that it's just me and my bundle of anti-social tendencies, I'll point out that over they years I've been DM'd by many people about the same individual, so this isn't justmyreaction to, or opinion of, this individual. It's sad when you have to admit that someone is a lost case and that the discussion will only improve without them.I'd point out that you and I have had our disagreements in the past, but that doesn't stop us having a civilised conversation and giving and acceptingusefulcorrections when they are called for. I will also admit that I mightjust, perhaps, rarely,poke fun at you when you stand on your professional dignity as a linguist but your saving grace in that regard is that (1) you usually recognise it as merely poking fun, (2) you don't by implication fall back on any professional titles youmayhave acquired when I do so. As far as the whole American/English thing goes I still maintain it's all because Noah Webster never actually learned to spell.Edit: typo s/mater/matter/ - clearlyIhaven't learned to spell either.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 07:20:21 pm
content: oh well, took the easy option and hit "the button"

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 09:01:56 pm
content: @Cerebus, @MK14, @tooki:Seriously: why did you bother? I already took the exit on the first page.Sit back and take a deep breath first. Really. Discussing with basket cases brings nothing, except wasting your time.@Simon: Thanks.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 09:15:01 pm
content: which is why I said don't feed it, best thing you can do to these types is deny them the attention they want as then they have nothing left.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 09:45:58 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 07, 2022, 09:01:56 pmYou (and the other hat collectors) were right. I'll get my hat and coat.