PROXXON 28481? need to cut thin plastic and metal sheets - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 03:48:57 pm
content: I need a tool to open squares and rectangles in thin plastic and metal sheets whose thickness is between 1 and 2 mm.I am thinking about the purchase of thePROXXON 28481+ set of cut blades.What do you think about it?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 04:01:37 pm
content: very decent but expensive, factor in the cost of fixturing to make sure your project does not go over budget. Dremel like tools vibrate like crazy sometimes. They work good so long you have steady hands and are careful but they only will work good if you can orient your work piece in such a way that it is stable and comfortable to cut it.working on plates is different then working on boxes then working on brackets or C sections (I assume you want nice looking front panels). Make sure you figure out how to approach each of those problems.And alot of people like the extension rod for the tools, or cordless tools. Foredom tool is excellent if you can afford it. Often the problem with cutting metal with a dremel is vibrations and also, it works better if you can rest your hands some where like you are welding MIG IMO, so you can use your thumb or forearm as a pivot point.I found that dremels and die grinders are somewhat hard to use nicely. Lots of technique. But a stiff tool is also important, and learning how to feed the metal (it will start oscillating if you push it too hard, when you are doing metal with a little bur its actually pretty slow, don't push it, let the tool do the work.Also what can help is hot glue/wood, if you need to cut something floppy you reinforce it temporarily and clean it up. Kind of want to get a cordless hot glue gun for this.Get that tool, and use it for something other then polishing, and you WILL learn vibration and really understand what resonance is.Also, layout and visibility is SUPER important using the tool, sharpie might not cut it if it is vibrating etc. You might want to think about machinists blue and a caliper so you can mark boxes, and possibly a contour gauge and a heavy duty protractor/scribe. I find its very easy to go out of bounds when you are using a bur.. but alot of that has to do with fixture (if you only have a simple vise, you might end up working in some angle that you don't have good visibility of the cutter.I recommend a good ball vise (don't own one but its on my wish list), like the one for electronics but beefy. So you can swivel it in any direction . But thats just one method of clamping. Make sure you have a good table too. Otherwise, I actually recommend a coping saw and doing cutting manually after you drill because its very precise, then using files. Dremel is a beast you must tame IMO.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 04:09:14 pm
content: these days there are dam cheap hand routers, did you consider them?Dremel are high speed that will melt your plastic in no time

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 04:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on May 04, 2020, 04:09:14 pmdremel plastic cutting wheel is good, the bur works fine on plastic and router is not optimal because its heavy, but some people like it alot (it is extremely stiff). Dremel is advertised like crazy and widely used but its hard not to be sloppy sometimes.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 04:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 04, 2020, 04:01:37 pmThe PROXXON 28481 is about 90 euroThe "combo kit" (PROXXON 28481+28622) is about 140 euroI am not sure if I need PROXXON 28622, it's an option that I have to consider carefully.Quote from: coppercone2 on May 04, 2020, 04:01:37 pmYes. Instrumentation front pannels.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 04:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on May 04, 2020, 04:09:14 pmnot yet considered. Is there any micro hand router?if so, any vendor/model you would recommend?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 05:03:52 pm
content: What is proxxon 28481?When I google it I get a picture of a rotary tool. But when I try to buy it, there is no 28481. So maybe that pic pops up from the word "proxxon." Then OP mentioned "blades." I associate blades with a saw, not a rotary tool.The proxxon rotary tools are bar-none the best I have ever used. They don't have as high rpm or torque as the high end Dremels, but the concentricity and smoothness more than make up for it, in most uses. I would highly recommend a Proxxon rotary tool for this kind of work, using a fine carbide burr for steel and aluminum and plastics. Dremel sells one for removing grout from tile. It's a little too long, but if you snap it in half it's perfect. You can also find a variety of carbide burrs from China, but they often have 3mm shanks, so you have to use a chuck or to find the right collet.The awesomeness is fragile, though. Keep abrasive dust out of them. The bearing wears out pretty quick, in the neck, but it can be replaced. The dust can and will get into the motor and wear out the commutator. Once that gets worn, the tool will lose this edge and be a normal underpowered rotary tool.I have one I used mainly for FR-4, on its second bearing. And it still feels smoother than a Dremel, but it's damaged goods. My good proxxons run circles around it, in cutting speed, despite running at the same rpms. So once it is wore out, the magic is gone, and it is basically just an underpowered Dremel. For dusty work, you might want to use the cheap one.The mains version has higher rpm and torque than the 12V transformer models. It's pricier, but it's the best one.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 05:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 04, 2020, 05:03:52 pmProxxonmicromot 28481tool.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 06:30:20 pm
content: ^That's the good one.Copper has given a lot of good advice, except this isn't a Dremel. This is smooth like butter. And when the burr is cutting 100% of the time, it cuts very much faster with much better control. Compared to an unbalanced rotary tool that will bounce/chatter and only cut a little bit per every revolution or 10. Forget power; if you want to use carbide burrs, you want this.When you buy bigger quality electric die grinders or trim routers, they will be smooth like butter, too. And they will generally last longer. But the proxxon you listed there is way more ergonomic and easy to use. I use this quite a lot, despite having more powerful choices.Personally, I won't be without my Proxxon rotary tools!But if you want to use cutoff wheels, then this level of precision is not going to be that much different than a cheap rotary tool. With a cutoff disc on steel, higher rpm might trump this. You want like 30k, and these only go to 20k. These are basically incredible free-hand milling machines, using carbide burrs and even endmills in softer materials. They will do all the other Dremel-stuff, but the milling is what makes them worth the premium.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 07:59:10 pm
content: dremel sells a tungsten carbide bur that is not meant for anything specific, its very strong, handled out of control osculation (imagine it beating around in a steel hole like a loose fire hose), with no chips.https://www.dremel.com/en_US/products/-/show-product/tools/9901-tungsten-carbide-cutterI have the KS280 chop saw, the tm115, the micro mill, the dremel stand from proxxon. They are all excellent quality. I don't have any dremel hand tools, I assumed it would be in the same ballpark. Kind of want one now. Unfortunately I invested in dremel and milwakee already,Might get it for the milling ability if its really that good, because that is what gives the standard rotary tool the most trouble.I actually love that table top saw even though you can use like 4 other tools to do the job (ks280).BTW, I usually mod crap. If you are doing a brand new box that will be welded, screwed or glued together, the router is obviously superior in every way if you work it on a flat surface braces against a full plane, especially if you use the cams or guides for the router. But that is also alot of work. Fortunately its not hydraulics and even RF electronics finger gasket has a spec that would make a early carpenter working with stone tools happy. (only really crazy LNA stuff), specified for like 30-70% compression IIRC.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 08:20:03 pm
content: oh right, and if the proxxon tool has the same collets as the drill, they are VASTLY superior from proxxon.The dremel collets you can imagine as light aviation. The german collet is a panzer tank. There is NO comparison. Proxxon actually gives you a REAL machine part there. You can pinch the dremel one with two fingers closed i want to say.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 08:55:24 pm
content: Yeah, the Dremel collets are 4 slot and might be made of aluminum. Proxxon are 3 slot and steel. That said, I only ever use the chuck, lol.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 03:47:48 am
content: If you add the drill stand you may be able to use it like a vertical mill as long as you're only cutting thin/light metal or plastic.I have an MF70 that does a pretty good job, but it was very expensive for as little as I've used it.(click for bigger)

author: ralphrmartin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 06:03:26 pm
content: Have you though of using a nibbling tool?https://www.rapidonline.com/Anvil-AV-NIBT-Nibbler-Tool-86-2150This is a manual one, but you can also get drill attachments.

author: bateau020
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2020, 04:41:36 am
content: And to add even more confusion: ever thought about a small CNC machine? Huge learning curve, not always fast (depending on the build quality of the CNC machine), but very precise. And most importantly, total freedom in shapes of holes and engravings.The pictures are from my chinese 3040.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 11:11:03 am
content: OK, so it’s the IBS/E. (The part number will vary depending on which voltage it’s for, pack-in stuff, etc.)I have the IBS/E and the MB200 drill stand. It’s not a true milling machine, but it does work well. It’s fantastic for drilling PCBs, and I have used it to mill small openings into plastic. I need to get an XY table for it to be able to actually mill things properly.I have read, however, that if used extensively for milling, the front bearing will give out. It’s not made for that kind of sustained lateral force.I can confirm that a dremel feels undignified compared to the proxxon. There’s no comparison in build quality. (Dremel does have some great cutters and bits, but of course those work just fine on the proxxon.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 11:18:54 am
content: Quote from: 0db on May 04, 2020, 04:37:05 pmI just got the flex shaft. It’s very useful. However, you’ll want to find a way to secure the machine itself when using the flex shaft. Proxxon sells a dedicated holder, but you could also just hang it from a hook.€50 extra for the flex shaft is a terrible deal. If Reichelt will ship to you, and customs fees aren’t onerous, it may end up cheaper to buy from them, where theIBS/E is €73and theflex shaft 110/BF is €21.The machine holder, by the way, is calledUZH and costs €19. I’m going to pick one up on my next Reichelt order.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 11:36:38 am
content: Quote from: ralphrmartin on May 05, 2020, 06:03:26 pmnot yet, but it's interesting

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 11:37:52 am
content: Quote from: bateau020 on May 10, 2020, 04:41:36 amThe Proxxom one is too expensive. With the 3-motors kit is about 800 euro, and the working area is very small.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 11:53:18 am
content: Quote from: tooki on May 16, 2020, 11:18:54 amUnfortunately, they do not.Quote from: tooki on May 16, 2020, 11:18:54 amThank you! This is exactly what I need to secure the tool when I use the flex shaft, and I have just added one on my Proxxon combo order

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 12:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: 0db on May 16, 2020, 11:53:18 amAre you sure? They list Zambia as a country they ship to.Quote from: 0db on May 16, 2020, 11:53:18 amGlad to be of help!!

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 12:57:51 pm
content: 2881028812288082881828304I have also just added an extra kit of cutting wheels. I will try which is the best for my final application.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:16:40 pm
content: This tool spins the carbide like a champ. And for cutting out square holes in plastic and aluminum enclosure faces, these burrs will quickly get you within your needle-file finishing quickly and smoothly.https://www.amazon.com/Tungsten-Woodworking-Engraving-Drilling-Lukcase/dp/B082RFCRKD/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=carbide+burr+1%2F8%22&qid=1589648633&s=hi&sr=1-9The most useful one is just a cylinder with a flat end, IMO. A small one (1/8" shank diameter all the way through) and a big one (like the ones on the right, or even larger), and that's all I would ever need. The pointy ones are occasionally useful, but there's no surface speed at the point.These cheap sets seem to have steel shanks, though. So if you screw up and chatter the tool inside a hole, you can bend them. The Dremel ones I mentioned before are all carbide, including the shank. I've been using the same carbide bits and endmills since the beginning of time, so I don't consider them consumables, even.Edit: regarding endmills, I would suggest you keep them short, 2 flute, and regular flat-ended. The tool doesn't have the rpm to use a ball-nose endmill in most engineering materials.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:17:51 pm
content: don't ever set the tool upright on the table if you want carbide burs to last forever

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 08:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 16, 2020, 05:16:40 pm20K RPM isn't enough??

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 09:17:58 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 04, 2020, 05:03:52 pmHave you ever used a Urawa/Minimo Minitor system? They're certainly priced at the super-high end for rotary tools, but there must be some market for that.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:50:01 am
content: ^No, that's not something I have even heard of. If it's comparable in function and price, that would be interesting to try out, though. Japan vs Germany.Tooki: Ball-nose endmills have a tip where the surface speed shrinks with the radius, approaching zero at the center. You can use them at some angles, but it's hard to make clean cuts at only 20k. For this type of hand-tool and what you are wanting to do with it (usually following with a file or sanding or something), having/using the spinning 90 degree edge/corner of a regular endmill or burr is going to be more useful (faster and smoother). Intuitively, you might think oh, it's rounded, so it's easier to control. But that is not the case.There's a point where to cut slower, you need more stability, rigidity, and outright mass/inertia. This is where ToT messed up with mini lathe (which he doesn't use, anyway), IMO. He geared it to make it slower, like his big boy lathe. Smaller, lighter, less rigid... sometimes it works better at higher speeds, even if it means running hot. I am pretty sure he mentions this in the video. So it's not novel information, or anything.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 02:41:21 am
content: Rotary tools are great with an almost endless number of legitimate uses so I will never tell somebody not to buy one! However I don't think square and rectangular holes are optimal uses for rotary tools, especially for hand held work.Quote from: 0db on May 04, 2020, 03:48:57 pmIf you want square holes or similar cutouts one of he best tools to get is a nibbler. Nibblers can be manually powered or electrically driven. Costs run from mild to what every you can afford. This:https://www.amazon.com/Sheet-Metal-Nibbling-Nibbler-Cutter/dp/B00WFFZ2X8is a dirt cheap solution and problem works like dirt. This guy:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0841RZ97R/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B0841RZ97R&pd_rd_w=erxg5&pf_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158c5&pd_rd_wg=jcb2A&pf_rd_r=C37419H7KT64M2NM8TP8&pd_rd_r=7be8651b-077c-46a7-8367-9560ea7ee260&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExREY1Skc3VEQyMDEwJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTQ2NDA5MzFNTkRXNzJXN0k1UCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwOTU5NzM3MVozNUlPVVNJT1hMVyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2RldGFpbCZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=is a drill powered unit that actually works well considering how cheap it is. Now for manually operated nibblers there are more expensive units from mainline tool manufactures targeted at professional usage.QuoteGreat tool for the price, I just don't see it as ideal for producing nice square holes in sheet stock. One consideration is to make use of the rotary tool in a Cartesian frame sort of like a manual CNC. I would not suggest going for a full blown CNC for these small rotary tools as the tools don't hold up well in CNC machines. If you want CNC, go full hog and build a decent machine.Other possibilities:Files and jewelers sawsGreenly type punches3d Printed plastic panels, Yes another machine but worth it.CNC router. Again another machine but very usefulbuy a mini milling machine, search carefully on the used market and these can be had cheap.When desperate chain drill and file

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 03:20:34 am
content: be careful with punches, first financially because they really limit what you can do, its meant for like job site electricians that make the same hole all dayalso, if you fuck up the alignment, it can blow up and possibly kill you if the hardened die fractures, so you need to be careful using those. I heard it can do some serious fragmentation damage. They are actually pretty heavy and I heard some bad things about them from someone that was around them before

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 03:34:16 am
content: For plastic and aluminum or really any relatively soft material I’ve been using wood chisels. Mask off the surface make my marks and start hammering. Lines are laser straight and corners are sharp. For round holes I use piloted or Forstner bits against a wood backer.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 06:56:11 pm
content: Adam Savage video link.These are very similar to the Dremel "grout removal" bit I have among my collection of carbide burrs.I find it curious that he calls these "hardened steel" double helix cutting bits. I think they're possibly tungsten carbide. He uses them to cut glass, among other things. Any rate, they make "carbide double-cut burrs" that look and work just like these. Some people might call them rotary files. They're not just for super hard materials. These cut thin plastic very controllably, as well. In thin plastic like an enclosure, this is close to a lightsaber. Good for any cutting too hot or too abrasive for steel cutting bits, too. Whenever my steel cutting bits wore out, I just didn't replaced them. The carbide bits keep on going.https://youtu.be/dj9lNlLTC_U?t=476Funny, he ways these were "real money" at 20 of them for $40. I think I paid $10.00 for the one Dremel brand bit. This is the one I snapped in half and have been using for probably 10+ years, now. I wonder if even Adam will use 20 of them in his lifetime. It's kinda funny that Dremel markets this so specifically as a grout removal bit (or they did ten years ago; that was how the packaging was most prominently labelled.) After cutoff discs, carbide burrs might be the second most common bit I use in a rotary tool, and I've never removed grout.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 09:24:58 pm
content: adam savage is extremely cheap with his shop because he actually seems to factor in his work time. Free time used to be very precious for him if you follow his older videos, he said he got to use his shop once a month or less when he worked on myth busters.I think a guy like that factors in how much money he could be making doing TV/celeb stuff, so his shop budget is atomically thin.. thats why he has a 1 day build habit (in addition to movies being made fast though). He must feel like he is losing serious amounts of money, chances are he could get a pretty fun (but not as fun as his shop) high paying show etc made if he wanted to with similar work, at the cost of having to deal with producers.I would not be surprised if he is not very careful with tools (since it takes time to be careful), so those end mills might not have a long life expectancy.Alot of the things he does are geared for speed , i.e. super glue + accelerator for gluing wood together. Almost everyone else would use clamps and wood glue, but instead of half a day, he does it in like 5 minutes or less.Normally you pay out the ass for fast.. but he does it cheap.. some how. If I factored in time earning potential ,my shop would be under sea water in the marina trench with the kind of stupid shit I slowly wrestle with to save small sums of money so I can get good tools, i.e. cleaning extreme scrap. I spent like 4 hours dealing with rusty old sheet metal used for a 1950's basement storm shutter this weekend to save on like 30-40$ of plate (keeping tool wear in mind too). I think he would die doing that, perhaps from fumes and dust.. but I also think his stomach would churn on some of the purchases I end up makingI just know, if the guy is trying to run a shop with similar 'budget' factors as other people, like trying to run it like some pesudo business, and he does fancy omelet cooking with hollywood celebrity cooks, he will defiantly not have the same 'buffers' as dirty bastards like us to pad high end purchases, if only mentally.I am pretty sure that most of the people here are ready to do demonic rituals to try to ensure the zombie equipment they run and so the endmills don't break. Also, it might cost him connections if he starts doing things people in his line of work consider 'nasty' with scrapyards etc, but also alienate poorer people if he starts throwing money at problems, so some of the things he says are irrational to me. 50 year old grease and bug removal are just not going to keep him popular

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 04:36:47 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 18, 2020, 12:50:01 amThey are hard to find, but if the sites I found are representative, they really aren't comparable.The only US distributor seems to bethis one, and they only accept business orders. The US FOB price for a Minitor grinder is around $650, plus $650 for the power base. In other words, around 13 times the landed cost for a Proxxon. The advantage is the much wider range of speeds and accessories, including motors up to 50,000 rpm and up to 4 lb-in torque, oscillating polishing heads, etc. There are a lot of other Japanese tool brands on that site that I haven't seen elsewhere.

author: 0db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 10:04:36 am
content: The parcel arrived yesterday and I have just done my first cut: wow, it's very precise and fast!