Better Pick And Place Machine DIY - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 10:48:34 am
content: based on what looks like 3D printer

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 05:55:57 pm
content: It has potential , just needs some development.

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 11:11:07 pm
content: Promising.Looking forward to see some actual pick-and-place, especially the component alignment and the speed.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 11:47:45 pm
content: Mechanics and speed look better than most of the lame efforts seen so far, but consequently probably not cheap. Still no sign of feeders, without which it is of minmal usefulness.There is way more to p&p than a good x/y/z mechanism. I suspec he'll either get bored and give up, or spend not much less than a used commercial machine before it is any real use.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 12:36:04 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2012, 11:47:45 pmYou might want to re-think that.This project is from the same guys who built this(a wall sized voice controlled automated parts storage system):Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2012, 11:47:45 pmUsed machine? So like 10k? 15k? I doubt it. I think if you used a 3d printer to help make some of the feeders and the head, I think you could make a DIY PNP, with top and bottom vision, and a rotating head for under $2-3k. I think the vision system and software is the real issue.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 01:15:34 am
content: Quote from: george graves on November 22, 2012, 12:36:04 amClassic example of solving a non-existent problem with a technological sledgehammer, and not nearly as complex as making a useable P&P. It's just voice->database->XY location.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2012, 11:47:45 pmQuoteVision is easy (as vision problems go) - all you need to do is find the centre and rotation of something in a very controllable environment at a fixed focal distance with optimal lighting. For bonus points make it find parts in trays & feeders to reduce manual setup time. For super-bonus make it find loose chip parts and shake the tray til it finds a good one the right way uo.Software is a major task - you only realise how major after you've used a real P&P and notice all the little details that need taking care of to make it useable.Even a good commercial P&P takes significant time to set up data and load parts. Any corner-cutting on a DIY machine that makes setup take longer eats further into the range of jobs for which a machine is useful.But useable tape feeders are still the problem that someone needs to solve to make it worthwhile.Any P&P that can't run a reel of parts without manual intervention is nothing more than a toy.Most would-be DIYers have never used a real P&P machine, and have not realised that a P&P that is, say 25% as good as the cheapest real one is a lot less than 25% as useful.An analogy that comes to mind is OCR software - 99.999% accuracy is pretty useful, but as that accuracy reduces below, say, 99% there comes a point where it is of just no use as it requires too much manual correction.I'm not saying it's not doable, just that it's an order of magnitude more work than it first appears.To anyone considering it, I'd say before you do anything, go take a good look at any commercial pick/place in action, and look at the whole process from setup to finished boards. At least you will get an idea of the complexity of the task.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 01:36:18 am
content: QuoteI was just repling to your comment about him not finishing the project - I agree - overkill.And...I hear where you are coming from - but I'm sure people were saying the same thing about a DIY 3d printer several years ago.DIY feeder:And for software - the openpnp project just about has all the complexities that you mention worked out.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 02:19:43 am
content: I've never seen a feeder, is it normal for it to have it's own motor?

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 02:29:12 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 22, 2012, 02:19:43 amIt needs one in order to advance the tape. Otherwise you would be able to place only one component.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 03:59:44 am
content: What I mean is is it normal for each feeder cartridge to have a motor, or would there be a single motor to power multiple cartridges. Meaning does a machine typically use more of a mechanical solution versus one that uses electronics and say steppers as in the vid above.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 07:37:26 am
content: Some modern feeders I've seen use two approaches: either a flat stepper motor (u know, the feeder for passives is like 10-15 mm wide) or some kind of miniature motor driving a screw gear which advances the tape. So yea, usually every cartridge has it's own motor (or motors)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 07:54:55 am
content: Quote from: george graves on November 22, 2012, 01:36:18 amThe difference is a slow, crappy 3D printer is still useful as it will do things you can't do by hand. The same does not apply to a P&PQuoteThat's not a viable feeder - just a stepper with a sprocket. Too wide to get a reasonable number, no cover stripping and unlikley to work well with both paper and plastic tapes.I quite like the multi-lane approach to feeders - my Versatronics P&P uses 10-lane feeder banks, which have one stepper and 10 solenoids, and gives good density. Bit of a PITA to reload the middle reels though.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 08:44:23 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 22, 2012, 07:54:55 amI believe that was just a proof-of-concept someone whipped up in an afternoon. It's not like "this is the only feeder design possible." Come one - let's be a bit more forward thinking, eh?I still don't understand why you think that something that does 90% of what a $30k machine does, for a 10% of the price isn't worthwhile venture. Enlighten me - I don't say that flippantly - I'm interested.And, I have to disagree - I do think it(a DIY PNP) is analogous to the DIY 3d printers. As a side note: Have you seen the quality of prints the current round of of repraps are putting out? "Slow" and "Crappy" aren't words I'd use to describe the prints now-a-days. At a recent 3d printer met up at a local hackerspace, I couldn't tell the reprap prints apart from the makerbot prints - no one could. Not to mention a DIY approach has the *huge* advantage of you being able to fix the thing when it breaks. To me that's a huge plus.Anyways....point is, that none of the DIY PNP machines to date are useable - I'll give you that. But, just like with 3d printing, when a community comes together, a lot can happen. I looked at DIY 3d printers a few years ago - the output was laughable. Now, I'm really, really impressed.I guess I don't see any issues that can't be over come. Feeder width might be an issue, same with software. But it's all just a bunch of parts and some code. Nothing magical/mythical with a PNP. (Unless there is some baby dolphin tears used to lube the machine that I don't know about.) - And - it's even more true if a open source group got some momentum with it - just like 3d printing.At a $30k entry price for a new PNP, that I can't work on, is close source, and I can't expand upon - yea.... I think 100 hours of my time would be a worth it to be able to populate 50-100 boards a day while I do other work. I kinda value my time. Just my 2 cents.BTW - love your videos - keep up the good work.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 10:47:51 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2012, 11:47:45 pmSpeed is indeed good, but speed is easy. The mechanics of this machine cost $225.QuoteDepends on the intended use. For any real production, I agree. But for prototypes and (very) small production, feeders are definitely not required. As I've written before, I am looking for this kind of machine, or just maybe, to build one. I've posted the picture of the board that got me convinced that I need a machine like this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-chat/homemade-pick-and-place-awesomeness/msg158657/#msg158657. This board has 80 small bypass caps, the biggest nunber of single component. That is only 320mm of tape. The machine only needs longish slots to where pre-peeled tapes are placed. Those might be a problem too, but that is much easier to solve.Setup time is not an issue for one-off boards either. I can see a process where machine prompts components ("Need 16 pieces of 470pF, 0805"), the operator takes those out from parts storage, puts the tape in a slot and clicks the button labeled "slot2". While the machine places those, the user puts back components from slot1 and gets ready for the next part. Spend some thought of the work procedures, and you could save that job. If you have more slots than types of components, operator is needed only when the slots run out. And in principle, the machine can be big. Round rails, aluminium profile or whatever is used to build the contraption are not that expensive. Add a vision assisted loose component pickup capability and we'll have an extremely usable machine. With an upward looking camera, even BGAs become usable for hobbyists.With this kind of machine, I imagine that the board would have been done in less than an hour, "setup" included. Still not good for production but huge improvement in development. A prototype house typically takes several days and charges more than half of the machine cost each time.QuoteRight, the software is the crux of the matter. Still, that would be fun, and if done as a hobby project, spent time does not count. For any commercial firm I doubt the investment in time (= salaries) would pay off for own use. Still, I think there is a market for a sub $1000 pick and place kit. But there is no reason why the part costs would be more than a few hundred.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 10:56:44 am
content: And to add to the fixed slots scheme: Imagine a board with parallel slots (say, 1mm wide), 4mm apart (the SMD tapes come in 4mm increments). You have a pile of special aluminium profile pieces, and you press them to the board at required distances. You now have configurable part tape holder system.Now we only need a company putting out about 2k, 1k for the nozzle and 1k for the first mile of the profile. I would buy several meters with the prototype p&p kit.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 02:24:50 pm
content: QuoteI think in practice it won't be that simple, e.g.peeling the right amount of cover, the uncertainty on qty doe to mis-picks and vision fails. Not saying it's not possible, just probably not quite that easy in practiceI really don't think that would be suffiecntly faster than hand-placement for a big enough range of jobs to be worth the effort. I have a P&P but still hand-assemble small quantities, and hand-place parts on the P&P joibs where there are only one or two parts of the type.You need to step back and look at the overall picture. Requirements range from one simple board to zillions of complicated ones.At one end, hand assembly is the quickest and easiest option, and at the other it is a no-brainer to go to an assembly house.So the market for a cheap or DIY P&P is where the placement count is too high for hand assembly to be viable, but low enough ( or urgent enough) that outsourcing it doesn't make sense. Any compromise in spec/funcitonality narrows that market further.If you take out the urgency/flexibility requirement, the upper end limit can be in the tens to hundreds depending on the attitude and workoad of available assembly houses. if you have space, you can pick up an old TP9 or similar for 5-10K, which will pay for itself pretty soon.I'm sure there is some market for a simple/DIY majchine but IMO it is very small, and any compromise in functionality, feeders in particular, makes it smaller.QuoteBGA viability is more about quality of solderpaste and post-inspection than placement accuracy. The need for multilayer boards for many BGAs is at least as high a deterrent than any placement difficulties.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 04:45:27 pm
content: I think speed might not be too high on the list of things a DIY P&P for the hobbyist would need. Even if slower than manual placement, if the accuracy is fine then the advantage is that it becomes a "set-and-forget" type of thing to automate a menial task. While it takes its time I can concentrate on doing other work. As long as the amount of time it needs attention is less than it would take to place the parts manually. So concentrate on getting the feeders and other bits working well, speed can come later.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 06:44:06 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 22, 2012, 04:45:27 pmTo some extent yes, but there is only so far speed can go down before it becomes useless. One fundamental limit is how long the paste stays tacky.The other is just the effective use of money/space - how long does it take to pay off even a cheap machine that does only a couple of boards a day?If it is slow it is even more important to be reliable and not need attention, which brings us back to needing reel feeders.Even the apparently simple method of using fixed tape lengths has potential problems. One is you need to tell the machine where they are ( vision may be useable to help speed this up, but probably not with black parts in black tape), because different jobs are going to want a different balance of feeder vs. board areas on the bedPlastic tape has its own issues - if you need to peel the cover off a length, sometimes small parts stick to the cover tape, and plastic tape is very springy, so once the cover is off, the slightest touch ( or vibration from the machine) can easily send all the parts flying.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2012, 05:24:56 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 22, 2012, 11:45:28 pmThe assumption here is that there are hobbyist that building one of something. Compared to a company that builds 100,000 of something. And there is no middle ground. You either make 2-3 of something - or 2-3 hundred thousand. That's not the case at all. Is it?You're right - for a hobbyist it would be an "academic exercise" - as they say. But there is a large number of people that are in the gray area between hobbyist and a corporation. It's a niche, granted. But that's where open source seems to thrive. I could site examples of that - but I'm guessing I wouldn't need to really - if you have been following the trends of open source hard/software over the years.And for mike - here is yet another 3d printed feeder design.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2012, 08:14:32 am
content: Quote..well at least someone has realised that feeders are necessary, which is a start.I can't see this design working well with plastic tapes though.I think the wheel would need to be metal (or at least use metal pins) to get a smooth and robust enough pin action, and I don't see the point of the sideways pushing - you just need a track with a stepped ledge to guide the tape.And he's got it back to front on his model - the index is on the wrong side - corrected on the multi-bank design.At least it's a start.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2012, 11:25:58 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 22, 2012, 11:45:28 pmAt some point, machine vs. hand placement is not a question about ease of use or convenience, it is about can I do this at all. Cases:- There is a finite time after printing the paste that it is still tacky enough. In my experience, that 450 component board was really pushing that limit. I don't want to do that again.- The older we get, the smaller the components become, both in reality and in perception. I can do only a few 0603 in a row by hand, and I do need a microscope for that. A board with 30 or so of those, and I need a machine. I can't place any 0402s. Ok, a machine would need to be pretty good for those - but possible for a hobbyist machine, I would think.- BGAs.QuoteBingo!

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2012, 12:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2012, 11:47:45 pmYou miserable old cynic you! If people want to have a go at making a P+P machine themselves, let them! If they want to try and sell a low-end one to a few customers, let them! We should be enthusiastically encouraging these people. Britain (and Hewlett Packard) was built by eccentrics in garden sheds.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2012, 01:52:20 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on November 23, 2012, 12:45:37 pmCynical, me..?QuoteNobody is stopping themQuoteYes but encouraging them to think about how to make something that is actually useful and not just diving in with a half-arsed approach that will never be more than a toy. My fear is that some over-enthuisiastic DIYer will lauch a half-arsed attempt on kickstarter, get funded by fanboyz/girlz who don't understand the issues until it's too late. That then takes a way a lot of potential market for something that's been done properly.QuoteYes - totally agree IMO the UK designed Versatronics machine is probably the best effort anyone has ever made at making a small, cheap P&P - I think they just were a bit ahead of their time in the 1990s and ran out of cash. There are still plenty of these machines still going, and if you can find a good used one (typically £3-8K with feeders) it is definitely the smallest and probably the cheapest real P&P available.Potential P&P builders could learn a lot by using one of these machines.Bottom line is I'm just trying to share my experience and help people avoid wasting their time persuing dead ends.I did look seriously at doing a DIY P&P a while ago based on a plotter before realising it was hopeless, and that, combined with experience of having a real one gives me insight into what is and is not important.Seemingly small issues like parts bouncing out of plastic tapes are only apparent once you start using feeders, but could easily make some approaches to feeder design unviable. There are many other small issues like this that you only see with experience.All I'm doing is trying to help & guide people but sometimes the truth hurts!Nothing has dissuaded me from the opinion that a P&P without reasonable speed and a viable design for proper feeders is a dead end.I believe that there is, now more than ever, a good opportunity to make a cheap (say $3-5K) very useable, and scaleble machine with economic tape feeders, but it will only be viable if it can perform well enough in terms of speed, setup time and component variety to cover a sufficiently wide range of jobs from 1-offs to small runs,to be genuinely useful to enough people.It will need a lot of work and some clever design to minimise costs. I've yet to see anything that comes close to it. I hope this will change but am not holding my breath.If people want serious suggestions on approaches that I think are worth persuing - I'm more than happy to contribute constructive ideas and share experience for free whan I have a little more time.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2012, 02:11:56 pm
content: ..and if someone wants a suggestion on something to design to make a real contribution to low-end SMD, the market is crying out for a cheap (<£200) stencil printer that will handle random sized unframed metal stencils, with proper tensioning.Good quality paste printing is the number 1 factor in good reflow quality.I'm convinced it could be mostly done using thick (3.2/4.8mm) PCB material as the main structural material. Some thought needs to be put into alignment and adjustment, although I've found that the fixed pinning method used in Eurocircuits' rather expensive printer works surprisingly well without the need for adjustments.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 05:26:41 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 22, 2012, 07:54:55 amThe older & common Juki's are all pneumatically driven. There is simply a compressed air line going into a momentary switch which shoots air out to both the tape advance sprocket and the tape cover winder. The machine head comes across to pick from the tape and after it has done so it hits the momentary switch and the tape advances before it leaves. Very simple, no motors and relatively cheap feeders. Its really nice because when you set up the tapes by hand you can apply the compressed air to the feeder bank and hit the tape advance switch by hand to make sure your aligned and ready before you set the machine up for a job.WRT to feeders and diy pp machines. I've thought about it too and personally I think the whole feeder caper is insurmountable for the DIY'ers. I think the best idea if someone is intent on doing a machine is simply to limit themselves to cut tapes and stick vib feeders. So build a really large xy table with a really fast screw and get a crap load of 8mm and 12mm cut tape linear guides machined out of aluminium and mount them down at one end of the table. Doing it that way they may get a couple hundred parts per strip of cut tape laying down on the table which may be good for a run of 100 or so boards before you need to replace the tapes. pulling back the tape covers will be up to the operator to do before running the job. ie no feeders, no fishing sinkers, limited runs of about 100 or so boards.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 10:11:23 am
content: QuoteI strongly disagree that a good DIY feeder is not possible, it just needs some clever design. It's not an inherently difficult thing to do, just needs thought applied to design details.If you go multi-lane, that helps remove the size constraint as well as making it easier to accommodate different tape widths - standard feeder bank width, different numbers of lanes with just a differemt set of guide rails.Another factor in keeping the widest possible potential market is machine footprint. A low-end machine is going to spend a lot of time not being used, so if it takes up a lot of space, it is going to be less useful to people with limited space.Large banks of passive tape rails are not conducive to a small footprint.Another issue here is you need high mechanical accuracy in the placement area but not in the feeder/pick area, so by needing to enlarge the table size just to accommodatae feeders, you are paying for precision over a wider area than is strictly necessary in terms of mechanical precision.This is one reason I like the SCARA arm approach as it has a small footprint & makes efficient use of space. Although it has an irregular reach area, this can be efficiently used by placing feeders, toolholders and reject bins in the outlying odd-shaped areas of accessability.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 04:29:27 pm
content: I think this is extremely clever.No "active" feeders, the PP head itself moves the tape.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 07:36:16 pm
content: Quote from: Dago on November 24, 2012, 04:29:27 pmTonnes of code and not even a motion profile with controlled acceleration.It shakes like it is having a heart attack.Leo

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 08:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: Dago on November 24, 2012, 04:29:27 pmUsing the head to move the tapes is a reasonable approach, but not using the tool - should be done with a dedicated pin. However cover tape peeling is still a problem - with static tension it can be a fine line between enough friction to prevent the cover-peel moving the tape, and too much for the head to pull smoothly.This machine also has no vision - vision is essential for useable accuracy - you may just about get away without for 0805s but nothing smaller.Vision is so cheap nowadays that there's no excuse for not using it. What would be nice is of someone figured out a way to use optical feedback for closed loop positioning. Unfortunately you can;t do it by looking at the PCB as you only see solder paste, and you need to align to the pads underneath. I sort of wonder if there may be something clever you could do with an upward facing camera looking at a cover plate with an accurate grid on it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 10:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 23, 2012, 01:52:20 pmI suspect that's inevitable.Is there any value is a good quality manual placement machine perhaps?i.e. one that has either say vibration trays (to flip a random lot of components) or manual tape channels, and vision assistance with good micro adjustment.Like this one at 9:40Dave.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 10:58:25 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2012, 10:18:17 pmProbably, but for $8000 it's very limited to commercial outfits that do a lot of hand placement of very low-run boards with very small parts.Just saw this, which is a similar idea, rather cheaper :http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/11/24/diy-low-budget-manual-pick-place/I don't think either of these would be much faster than tweezer/vac-pen hand placement, the main benefit is precision, so only really useful where you need to use small stuff, and a different beast to any sort of mechnised P&P, where the aim is higher speed/less manual work and fewer errors.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 11:28:42 pm
content: Here one idea on how to center the parts and not even bother with vision if you choose to. (this is a mill converted to a PNP - so it's extremely slow - but you get the basic idea)I still don't see any problems that can't be solved. There are several example of good hardware (speed and precision) in this thread. And example of software that would work as a starting point.As far as be concerned about a kick starter project...well yea, it's kick starter. One has to look at all their projects with a raised brow(or should I say there is a sucker is born every minute). So that's kinda moot. It's not a reason why an open-source approach wouldn't work.And here yet another design - I like the idea of it being on some sort of cart that could be put away when not in use. too bad it doesn't have vision, or better feeders. Someone just needs to combine all the ideas into one machine. Problem solved.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2012, 11:44:07 pm
content: Top and bottom vision on a DIY pick and place:

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 01:36:28 am
content: A novice comment again. Does Kicad or any other program export info (component location) that a pick and place system can use? I assume the answer is no.As a follow up I guess you would need a pickup location and perhaps a mask to indicate orientation, if not a mask a package name so you could create one. Just thinking.

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 02:36:10 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 25, 2012, 01:36:28 amYes, they can create .pos files.Generated from the video card sample that comes with KiCad:Code:### Module positions - created on 25.11.2012 03:30:58 ###### Printed by Pcbnew version pcbnew (2012-01-19 BZR 3256)-stable## Unit = inches, Angle = deg.## Side : Cuivre# Ref Val PosX PosY Rot SideC2 100nF 13.6050 2.6550 90.0 CuivreC4 100nF 14.0150 3.0750 0.0 CuivreC5 100nF 13.6300 3.8300 270.0 CuivreC6 100nF 13.6050 2.8850 90.0 CuivreC7 100nF 13.3150 3.4550 180.0 Cuivre

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 04:58:58 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 24, 2012, 10:11:23 amIts possible.. some commercial feeders are very simple as I mentioned...you could just copy an existing feeder design... its just that I'm not sure its worth it. Feeders for some of the older common machines are available for around $100 per feeder. I get the impression people want something in their shed for a grand or two... I'm not sure you'll get near that point with a bank of 20 or 40 feeders included ( you will with cut tape strips though). (not to mention weight. I have a small cnc. My feeder bank weighs more than the cnc). Then you're in the realm of picking up a commercial machine for 5 grand at auction with feeders included....which way to jump?You could look at the Madell approach which seem to make machines that look somewhat like what a DIYer could be expected to come up with. Instead of making their own at first they decided just to steal a commercial feeder and use that (can't remember which... fuji feeders?). Then when they did come up with their own you needed to run down to the tackle shop and buy a bunch of sinkers. Its probably just not an economical prospect.

author: benemorius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 05:10:07 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on November 25, 2012, 04:58:58 amI didn't realize you could pick one up in that range. Can you elaborate a bit?

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 06:48:45 am
content: Quote from: benemorius on November 25, 2012, 05:10:07 amjust keep your eyes on the auction sites.I think whats driving it... at least from what I see is that this last 2 years has been a real killer for the industry. This year alone I've seen a whole bunch of shops shut down, not just OEM's but some of the smaller contract shops have been going to the wall. As a result alot of used gear has been going up, not just pp's but all sorts of stuff. Downsides are most of it literally weighs a ton as it is commercial gear. You hardly ever see the small proto type systems. The other end of it is that most of the gear will only do down to 603's in a pinch.

author: JonnyBoats
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 07:12:08 am
content: Here is a very low cost DIY manual pick and place that looks quite nice:http://vpapanik.blogspot.gr/2012/11/low-budget-manual-pick-place.html

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 07:53:07 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on November 25, 2012, 06:48:45 amThat's no drama for most projects. If you know your machine only does 0603, design accordingly.If you could get a commercial machine for $5K here in Oz, I'd be temped to pick one up myself, for kicks.Dave.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 08:27:03 am
content: Being that the low end of a *new* usable machine is ~30k USD - the lowest I've seen for a used machine is 10k - and always sold "AS IS" - as auction houses and ebay sellers tend to do. No gaurentee that it works at all So you are out 10k and you don't know if the machine works or not - and if it's 20 years old, good luck on getting parts. I don't know about you - but I could never wright a check for 10k or even 5k with out knowing something works.....I have head of a hacker space that picked up a non-working unit for something like 3k(?) and then replaced all the electronics. I don't think they have vision or anything working on it - it's all just trusting the steppers don't skip and then hand re-aligning the parts that don't get placed right.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 10:57:55 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 25, 2012, 01:36:28 amAny serious PCB software will generate a report listing component locations, rotations, types & values.If you can unify the package names used by your PCB and P&P system (and make sure orientations are consistent relative to feeder orientation!) then data setup can be very quick & easy. A minor fly in the solderpaste is SO packages that can come in tubes or on tape, which usuallly need different orientations.You also need to export fiducial positions to get the absolute position references - I do this by having a special 'fid' component that my conversion software recognises and uses to create reference points in the P&P config file.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 11:05:15 am
content: Quote from: george graves on November 25, 2012, 08:27:03 amThis is where you really need to know what you're doing- some machines will be easily fixable, others will need unobtanium bits, like custom made leadscrews.If you're seriously looking it's worth talking to specialised second-hand dealers - the good ones will know which machine are viable, even as 'projects'.You generally also need a fair amount of space, and access (wide doors, no steps etc.) as most old machines are big and heavy and don't break down into smaller pieces easily.When I was looking for a P&P I found several in the £5-10K range with feeders that would have been fine if only I'd had the space for them.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 11:10:53 am
content: Quote from: george graves on November 24, 2012, 11:28:42 pmMechanical centering is a dead end IMO. A few low-end commercial machines of old used it - the only reason I know is whenever I hear them mentioned it is to bitch about how bad they are.It may work for chip components but not readily scalable for the whole range of pars without a lot of fiddling.The machine already has to have the ability to rotate and move parts, so all you need is a camera, and cameras (and the processing needed) are now trivially cheap so no reason to slow everything down by stopping to centre each part.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2012, 11:19:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2012, 07:53:07 am0603 is a pretty reasonable limit for a low-end machine - the difference between 0805 to 0603 is a lot more significant that 0603 downwards. something that could only do 0805 would be quite limiting - e.g. by the time you 'd got a couple of 0805 decoupling caps around a QFP micro, you've lost a lot of routing space.0603 is now pretty much the default industry size for non space-constrained designs.QuoteIf there are any SMD/factory equipment dealers left in Oz it's worth emailing them - they often aren't too interested in low-end stuff but if they know someone is looking they may come across something & let you know instead of letting the factory they're clearing scrap it.The problem is that with any old machine that is still useable, the feeders tend to be in demand from other users, and can often have higher value than the machine.Industrial SMD stuff is an area where there is very little info on the net - the only forum I'm aware of (other thanmine) ishttp://www.smtnet.com/Forums/

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 08:43:03 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 23, 2012, 02:11:56 pmCould you elaborate? In principle, what is wrong with manual method, like this?I've done only two boards like that, using a steel stencil, and the print turned out perfect. Was I just lucky? Why a machine is needed, why tensioning is needed?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 09:20:08 am
content: That video has no sound (To save others from wasting time checking their PC cables)

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 09:33:01 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 25, 2012, 11:19:17 amAlso:forums.adafruit.com/viewforum.php?f=42

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 10:25:00 am
content: CAUTION; STRONG USE OF CHINESE LANGUAGE!http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19322348120Looks amazing though. looks to be about $3500 AUD @hoeken linked it on twitter a while ago.http://www.tudou.com/home/SMThzQuicker loading videos.I'm also zipping the vids and putting them in my dropbox; it's quite impressive, the later videos show it can pick up 2 components at the same time and place them, halving the head movement mostly.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 11:10:40 am
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on December 17, 2012, 10:25:00 amVery interesting - could be a great opportunity for an English-speaking company to translate & market it.Not clear what if any vision it has though, or how it handles different tape widths.Putting two heads on a low-end machine is awesome!

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 11:33:33 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2012, 11:10:40 amNot to mention 0402!By vision do you mean vision for absolute positioning, or vision as in foresight (eg marketing/future support)?As for tape width, yeah, very true, the look semi fixed.https://dl.dropbox.com/u/677635/chinesepnp.zipis a zip of the videos from tudou.Reading the translated description of features seems pretty cool:multiple guarantees free logistics freight negotiation site commissioning, training the whole year warranty. - i wonder if this counts in the UK or Ausexclusively developed feeder automatically, no need to spend money to buy enough. Configuration 8mm = 12 stations, 12mm = 2 stations, 16mm = 1 station; - and or? eg does it have all those feeders or only one set at a time?exclusive research and development of laser cross cursor coordinates acquisition, programming is more concise and precise; online visualization of fine-tuning each component. - maybe this is to do with absolute positioning?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 11:38:51 am
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on December 17, 2012, 11:33:33 amYes - what makes me suspicious is it looked like they were picking the QFP from a specially made tray, presumably to pre-align it.Although you may be able to get away without vision for chips, once you get to smaller taped parts like TSOPs and MSOPs it's pretty much essential.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 11:40:52 am
content: QuoteLooking at the size that looks like a fixed set - If those are all fixed than that is an insane limitation.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 11:49:27 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2012, 11:38:51 amalignment doesn't look too bad, in the zip, video 150540862.h264_1 shows it placing resistors in a circle shape with slight angle on each one, they look pretty decent.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2012, 09:11:12 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2012, 11:38:51 amAhh, just looking at the videos again, it seems they have different trays that you mount beside and populate for it to pick from for larger components,https://dl.dropbox.com/u/677635/pnpmachine.jpghttps://dl.dropbox.com/u/677635/pnpmachine2.jpgthe trays that i saw had between 10 and 14 spaces which is pretty limited, I wonder if you could sacrifice some workspace for more trays to pick from? the trays don't seem to extend to the maximum range of the head either so that looks a bit wasted space...the feeder config is pretty limited yeah, but it looks like it is limited because the way the tapes are held, the section that holds the tape in position seems fixed because its all machined out of the one piece of alu.it seems like it would be pretty simple to customize so it isn't fixed thoguh, remove the fixed raised block that goes underneath either side of the tape and tap some threads into the base to mount new blocks, make up a bunch of blocks that have different spacings for different thickness tapes, you might need to make different tensioners too, i'm not sure, the wider tapes are always in the background, then reprogramthough, that does seem like a lot of work if you're buying a new, $3500 machine... although... for $3500, that's a pretty good deal still.