Electronics Manufacture in the Far East - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 01:54:11 pm
content: Hello,As you know, there are few Electronics jobs in UK now, as Electronics has been largely hived out to the Far East…Far East Manufacture (& design) is extremely common in UK)As you know, the UK (and many other countries) are closing down their own electronics companies, and instead, big western corporations are simply buying the electronics products from Far East Asia, and selling it into the Western markets….making a big “middle-man” mark-up.Raking in the lucre, to the stagnation of the UK.I have been to many UK based companies where they are having electronics made in the Far East. One common thing, is that certain company staff, every now and again, have to go over to the Far East to “check out” what’s going on with the Far East Asian manufacturer. I deeply apologise, but this must be said……I regularly overhear lots of discrete innuendo about UK Male Staff members cavorting with Far Eastern prostitutes, whilst on these “business visits”. This is a serious concern. Not only is the UK (+other countries) loosing its electronics industry, but no doubt, a great many Far East Asian girls are being groomed or even, tragically, bred, into prostitution. I have even overheard stories of Western males on “Business trips” indulging in , shall we say, “activities”, with under-age Far Eastern girls.The talk is that the visits to the “Far Eastern manufacture site” is essential so that they can be monitored by the Western business……however, its entirely possible that the Far East Asian “Manufacture site” that they attend is simply a temporary site, put in place purely for the Western “business visitors”, and then taken down again when they have gone………and then the real Manufacture site goes back to whatever horrendous sweat-shop it was before.I have certainly seen examples of Far Eastern manufacture being so bad, on such a massive scale, that the assembly could only have been done in a room with very very little lighting…….the multiple assembly errors being that massively obvious…and yet missed…The most startling example was a domestic goods company in UK, where literally thousands of products were assembled incredibly badly in the Far East…….and the whole UK warehouse stock of millions of pounds worth of products had to be shipped back to the Far East to be re-worked…many of the products had already been shipped to UK customers, with slashed mains internal wiring with gold conductor strands protruding out of the wiring insulation sheath and hanging precariously near internal metalwork, or even touching it………there had been countless “business visits” to the Far East Asian manufacture site, but nothing was picked up then.I also remember a chap showing me his photos of his “business visit” to the Far East…..i particularly remember he showed me one picture of a restaurant meal with the Far Eastern Asian company’s staff….many of the Far East Asian staff were very young looking girls, dressed not really in a business like fashion.So can anyone spread more light on such un-edifying activity in the Far East…at the behest of the Western Corporations?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 02:12:18 pm
content: Have a read of this book, it's excellent and well worth your time and money.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production/dp/0470405589/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517667028&sr=1-1&keywords=poorly+made+in+china

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 02:25:07 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 03, 2018, 01:54:11 pmI'm not sure you can say it's "at the behest of the western corporations". It's not as if China were a <ahem> workers' paradise until the western corporations came in and started making behests.The situation in China has been bad for a long, long time. The people there have been victimized by the Communist regime, the British imperialists, and the emperors going back thousands of years. People with weak morals avail themselves of the ... uh ... opportunities regardless of who gets hurt in the process. The people in western corporations are not inherently more virtuous than anyone else, but neither are they inherently less virtuous than anyone else.- Bob

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 02:58:46 pm
content: Your description of Asia sounds pretty much like Europe or America.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 12:18:36 pm
content: QuoteThanks, yes, i assure you, the big Western corporations, (and their subsidary companies which appear on the face of it to have no relation to the corporation) by acting as "middle-men" for these Far Eastern goods, are entirely complicit in everything that is going on in the Far East in this respect.The tragic breeding of these Far East Asian girls into prostitution for the satisfication of the Western Business visitors is entirely something that the Western corporations are responsible for.In the UK, we are supposed to pay a heavy tariff for Chinese goods, but this is cleverly avoided by all. No UK body would even want to enforce the Tariff anyway, because its an EU tariff, and the tariff money would only go into the European Central Bank.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 02:49:09 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 12:18:36 pmProviding prostitutes for guests is a millennia-old tradition that is not limited to the west. And pimps are at least as culpable as johns - arguably more so.I'm not trying to let westerners who avail themselves of prostitutes off the hook. But it sounds like you're trying to hold them solely responsible, and I don't buy that.- Bob

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 03:06:41 pm
content: A couple of other thoughts:Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 12:18:36 pmHere in the US, there's been a controversy in the past few years about what rights corporations have. One of the arguments is that corporations are not people.But you're talking about corporations as if they're moral agents. They're not. The people working in the corporations are moral agents. Some employees of western corporations visit China and take a prostitute, and some don't. The moral burden is on the individual, not the corporation.Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 12:18:36 pmSo what? Are you complaining about prostitution, or are you complaining about the economics of international trade? First you try to hold "western corporations" wholly responsible for the world's oldest profession, and then you you advocate for tariffs. What's your actual agenda here?- Bob

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 03:23:46 pm
content: Thanks, i recognise there is prostitution everywhere, but in the Far East Asia, it is common for Girls to tragically be accosted and bred as prostitutes...forced into a life of prostitution. This is very different to what it generally is in the west.And this is a good reason not to rely on buying stuff from Far East Asia.Ultimately, the act of allowing another country to do all your engineering for you, partly by enslavement of their population, will lead to the western counties stagnating and dying off.In UK, we are already experiencing this, as follows...https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdeclineThe following is a letter which UK residents (and residents of other countries in the same situation) can send to their politician so as to try and get something done about this...https://massey276.wixsite.com/letterThe Great President, Donald Trump is trying to push things in this direction, but the huge corporations are trying to smash him out. These are the huge corporations who just want to rely on Far Eastern slave labour.Thank goodness Trump is standing up. Nobody else is brave enough to stand against the corporations...those corporations who 'backhander' the politicians to get their way. Trump is rich enough to be able to afford his own security against the inevitable assassins bullets which will be flying towards him.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 03:29:09 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on February 11, 2018, 03:06:41 pmCorporations are not moral agents, which makes the legal notion of corporate person-hood absurd. However, things have changed. In the 19th century, when most company law started, individual officers within a corporation were usually the entities dragged into court for wrongdoing. They had a strong incentive to ensure their chunk of the enterprise operated within the law. Even when AT&T was broken up, people tell stories of how the senior managers held public meetings where they told everyone to obey the letter of the law. If they didn't the senior manager could go to jail, and they really didn't like that idea. Now, nobody is surprised when no personal indictments result from wrongdoing in companies. This migration of responsibility flies in the face of one of the few truly repeatable findings in psychological research - its hard to make people do bad things when they will be held responsible, but very easy when responsibility can be diverted to someone, or something, else.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 03:42:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 11, 2018, 03:29:09 pmNot to digress too far, but there's a common misunderstanding that the Citizens United case in the US was decided based on corporate personhood. It was not. The majority wrote "If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, orassociations of citizens[emphasis added], for simply engaging in political speech."I.e. it was decided based on the 1st Amendment right of the people to assemble.Quote from: coppice on February 11, 2018, 03:29:09 pmBut corporate law was always about limiting liability. That's not new.- Bob

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 04:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 03:23:46 pmCan you cite evidence of major differences between prostitution in the east and the west?Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 03:23:46 pmThat's a really mean letter, that any sender should be ashamed of sending. Young people need to go where opportunities take them, and in the UK that is no longer into engineering, unless their goal is to emigrate. People didn't stop studying engineering causing a decline in UK industry. People stopped studying engineering because the UK government drove away most of the engineering industry, and the jobs dried up. Now it seems to be driving away pharmaceuticals, and other remaining areas of successful UK industry. This has little to do Europe versus cheap labour in Asia. It is about the UK versus Germany, and how the environment in Germany has lead to things like the streets of China being filled with VW, Audi, BMW are other German cars. It looks like even Germany is screwing up now. Its industries are doing fine today, but the innovation which should drive its industries 10 years from now seems to be slowing.The UK government is the greatest enemy of a prosperous future for the UK. The UK only wanted to join the EEC because the country was screwing up so badly in the 1960s. Government practices haven't really changed, so without a moderating influence from the mainland I fully expect the UK to go downhill faster after brexit.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 04:08:49 pm
content: QuoteThanks, i think its actually just possible that we actually concur, just that we are coming at it from different directions.What i am saying is, yes, i agree with you generally, but the UK can do something about it if somehow its peoples can be stirred.If everyone in UK got behind this...https://massey276.wixsite.com/letter...then the UK could make a success of Brexit.QuoteIf UK youngsters no longer go into engineering , then within a decade, UK will be a third world country.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 04:27:44 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 04:08:49 pmSo what you're proposing is that the UK government schools "regularly point the kids" to a particular political screed, promote to "all the UK Schoolkids/College students" a certain individual's course on designing power supplies, establish socialist/mercantilist economic policies ("More public funding for UK Engineering companies"), and teach children that their highest purpose in life is “Service to UK”.For myself, I prefer individual liberty, free economies, and an absence of state propaganda.- Bob

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 04:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 04:08:49 pmKmoon Treez, where are your fancy engineering stories? We are really missing them.You got bored by Electronics and high-tech and moved to Politics? Even now if you take a midday snapshot on the streets of London, it looks already as a third world country.Bedford(sorry I mean Luton, was thinking to something else about Bedford) was also a very nice town, now it mostly looks like downtown Karachi. I'm sure you can build a long list of cities in the same condition. The fancy BREXIT will help a lot in the transformation process, deny access to Europeans and open your doors to the others. Very wise and smart decisions.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 04:36:07 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 04:08:49 pmIn the early 1980s, when people first began to seriously turn away from engineering degrees in the UK, the group I worked in was asked to give talks to local schools about careers in engineering. We had reasonable jobs, but we could see where things were heading. When the organisers realised we intended to present a highly discouraging view of getting an engineering degree as a route to an engineering career in the UK, they suddenly didn't want us to present.School careers people cannot be trusted to serve the best interests of the young people they serve. They serve the needs of industry, and what industry wants is an oversupply of skilled people, to help keep costs down. The smartest young people don't buy into this, so you immediately have a filter that ensures a lower tier of abilities get suckered in. If there are good opportunities, smart people will sign up for engineering degrees without any cajolingQuote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 04:08:49 pmGo anywhere in the US or Asia and you'll find quite a few smart UK engineering graduates (along with Australians, who are in the same position) who are making a good life for themselves. Most that I have talked to would rather have remained at home, if there were opportunities. Its hard to get successful things started in an unfriendly environment, though. A friend's brother recently moved to Singapore to start a biotech company, because it was too hard to start it in the UK. It looks like engineering is being repeated in the life sciences.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 05:31:13 pm
content: i dont disagree with you, but if the British people are shown that their country is in a rapid state of decline, and is being sold down the river, then they may just decide to help turn things round.This website should be shown to the UK people, to show them that they will be third-worlders before long....https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdecline..the problem is that no British know this, they all think that the UK is the 5th richest country in the world.This applies to all countries...because they will end up like Greece if they do not keep their eyes on their politicians...Greece was sold down the river by its own politicians.Greece borrowed itself into bankruptcy.Greece would never have been able to borrow so much money if it had not joined the Euro currency.Greeks were taken into the euro currency without a referendum.Are we saying that Greece's leaders didnt know that this bankruptcy would happen if they joined the euro?Lucas Papademos was actually working in thye European central bank from 2000 to 2010...are we saying that he couldnt tell what was going to happen?

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 06:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 05:31:13 pmYou've posted a link to that site four times in the last two hours. Enough already.Let's assume you're right and that the UK will soon be a third world country. What happens then? Wages will drop and foreign manufacturers will take advantage of the cheap labor by building factories. And so the situation will reverse, with Asian countries outsourcing to the west and western wages rising again.But in reality, the economy won't swing up and down between extremes like that. What we're seeing now is wages stalling - but not dropping - in the west while wages rise in Asia. It will reach a new equilibrium point where there are large middle class populations in both places.- Bob

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 07:48:16 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 11, 2018, 05:31:13 pmYou seem to assume the average Brit is an idiot. Millions of British people, especially older ones who have lived through decades of decline, are painfully aware of what has happened. Half a million people leave the UK each year, and most of those aren't doing it because its so great in the UK. People just have no idea what they can do to make things better if they stay. It certainly isn't to get a degree with poor job prospects.Through most of my life I've watched the political parties in other Europe countries arguing about how to carve up the pie, while the parties in the UK keep arguing about whether baking pie is a good idea.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 07:13:32 pm
content: QuoteThanks, i would be very grateful and much appreciate it if you were possibly able to say what percentage of them are engineers.I suspect its a lot.QuoteThanks, but not at all....British people just havent got time to get into it....so i have written them a letter which they can simply click off to their MP to reverse the situation..here is the letter..https://massey276.wixsite.com/letter

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 07:31:20 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 12, 2018, 07:13:32 pmIf you're so good at designing power supplies, why don't you design few really good ones and then open a business selling you brilliant power supplies (or IP rights on them). Does the British government really stop you from doing that?

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 07:40:50 pm
content: Good God, you've posted five links to the same web site in two days!

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 05:50:28 am
content: QuoteThanks Thats interesting...There are several billion SMPS's in operation in the UK. There is not one single British power supply design company. (eg no Meanwells, XP Power, Traco, Lambda, TDK, etc etc)

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 02:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 13, 2018, 05:50:28 amSo? The absence of the local competition must be good for your business.

author: josip
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 02:43:54 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 03, 2018, 01:54:11 pmI spend about 10 years in multinational company, on commissioning, plants all around the world. Unfortunately, agenda (not sure if this is a right word) was always the same. And it is not related only to Far East, and / or UK male staff.Quote from: treez on February 03, 2018, 01:54:11 pmThis is not unusual. In all (Asian) factories that I was working, it was not possible to see older working person. Almost complete stuff was under 30 years. Dress code is different there, same as male/female relationship, and it is not unusual to see girl (that is not a prostitute) in very short dress, visible panties.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 02:48:12 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 13, 2018, 05:50:28 amIn the 70s, when an SMPS was new technology, the best power supplies were British. People like Advance made 240V SMPSes with reliability levels nobody else could match. Like most of British engineering they didn't adapt to a changing world where making a reliable SMPS is relatively easy, and cost is king. If you compare that to US companies, Lambda, Delta and others were making reliable 120V SMPSes in the 70s, but their export offerings for 220-240V markets sucked. However, they kept working in the reliability and the cost, building on income from a solid 120V market base. Lambda is now owned by TDK, and Delta is practically an Asian company. They had to adapt, but they are still around. How many people even remember the name Advance?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 03:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: josip on February 13, 2018, 02:43:54 pmWhen there is rapid growth in an industry the average age of the workforce is usually quite low. In the 70s, when electronics was growing rapidly in Europe and America, the average age of people in western electronics companies was not a lot different from what you see in many Asian plants now. In the last 10 years the average age in Chinese plants has crept up a bit, as their industry has started to mature.Generally young women dress in a way that reflects how safe they feel. In a warm place like Singapore, where assaults on women are rare, its hard to tell the office workers from the hookers in the downtown area. This confuses many westerners, but its just the local way. Its rather like the odd conclusion that many westerners come to that Asia is full of lesbians, because so many young women walk around town holding hands.Even in factories, where people don't generally dress as smartly, in a hot climate a woman won't be wearing a great deal if she feels safe.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 11:02:30 am
content: Hello,Our company imports vast amounts of Chinese designed/manufactured lighting products and “middle-man’s” them on to western markets. We have a ‘token’ design/manufacture base in UK which kind of “oils the wheels”, shall we say, for this operation. (I'm not knocking the token products....they are pretty cute, and in truth, on a cost/performance/functionality basis, they are very very good and very often just what the customers want.)Though this behaviour by virtually all UK companys undoubtedly means that ultimately the UK will totally stagnate and passage into being a third world country, (https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdecline) you can clearly see why UK companys find this modus operandi very difficult to avoid… because there are now very few engineers left in UK, and schools are simply not adequately trying to address the engineering staff short-fall. –The following necessary measures are not being carried out…(https://massey276.wixsite.com/letter) There is also the situation of trying to make UK designed products cost competitive with stuff that is simply bought in from the Far East....at a price set by the Far East, which is so cheap that it is low enough to encourage total "knock-out" of western product design capability.....ultimately rendering the west a dependent customer.There is also the situation of Far East Asian girls being tragically bred into prostitution, so as to satisfy the revolting sexual desires of Western business visitors, who visit the Far East on the premise that they need to “check out” the factory. How they can believe that whatever Far East Asian factory they get shown round is really the one where their products will really be designed/made is beyond me…….in truth, it is virtually certainly just a stooge setup, to fool western visitors. The real factory is probably some horrendous sweat-shop that Western eyes never see.Anyway, our engineer was just in the middle of finishing up some important testing in some of our “token” UK products, when they took him off this job, because for whatever reason, they were concerned that he may up and leave after completing this work. The company now appear to be pretending that the engineer must design a switch mode power supply based LED driver. This seems to me to be almost certainly a fake job, invented to try and fool the engineer into believing that there is some juicy work to be getting on with, and no doubt an attempt to scupper his leave plans, having prevented him from finishing the work he was doing on the ‘token’ products.I really cannot believe that a company that makes the vast bulk of its money from “middle-manning” Far East Asian lighting products into the UK suddenly wants to start designing stuff. Only a month ago they told the engineer that there was no development work to be done. Every time a Switch Mode design was presented, it was simply rejected on the basis of being too expensive.The crucial point is, how much money can be made in importing Far East Asian lighting products into UK? What is the EU Tariff on such imports? I am aware that UK companys don’t pay the tariff because the EU customs guys don’t come to mainland UK. Does anyone know what kind of profit gets skimmed off of an order for say 1000 T8 LED tubes from the Far East , say?Its necesary to find out the details before our repective western countries totally stagnate, and in the case of the UK, feverishly filling its boots with Far East Asian stuff, and becoming a Third world country within a decade.-----------------------------------------------I am sure China imports to the EU have to pay VAT at 20% plus some extra amount. As such, i do not know the total tariff for China to the EU?Does anyone know.Currently, British Electronics companies set up "token" manufacture lines....producing "token" products. This is so that they can declare themselves as a manufacturer...these British companies then import Electronics stuff from China, and dont pay the EU tariff....they then pretend that these goods are "made in UK"...and then sell them on to many other EU countries.....these EU countires then conveniently dont have to pay a tariff as UK is currently in the EU..( but not for long).Its easy to do this from the UK as our ports are off the EU mainland and are difficult for the EU customs to scrutinise...This will all end when UK leaves the EU in march 2019, because UK will not be in the EU...Even if the UK stays in the EU, this business will end anyway, because the EU are going to ensure that its clamped down upon. For a start, the EU have arranged for a rail route direct from China to Germany (or near Germany) …….any products coming to the EU from china will be easy for the EU to monitor via this route…..any other products coming to the EU from china, eg by ship, will be severely scrutinised. The EU have already ensured that many of the European mainland ports have been closed down to Chinese imports…..the net is closing in…China imports on which the EU tariff has not been payed will not be possible after March 2019….not in any significant volume anyway.The problem is that this “token” electronics industry in UK, is the only electronics industry left in UK……. And when march 2019 comes, this industry will vanish overnight.This will leave the UK in a parlous state. The people that ran these industries will simply depart the UK.Please send this to your MP if you are a Brit, and please heed this if you are not…..it could be your country next….look what happened to Greece.https://massey276.wixsite.com/letterI predict total collapse of UK to the third world within a decade. Before that, there will be total disorder, with possibly American troops coming in and sort it out as best they can.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 11:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 18, 2018, 11:02:30 amHuh? That's crazy talk. I think you've totally lost the plot!

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 11:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 18, 2018, 11:02:30 amI think it should be French troops sorting things out. That would be so much more fun.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 05:54:15 am
content: Quoteunfortunately, whether or not i have lost it, is now irrelevant...the damage has been done...here...https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdecline