Come in through-hole components your time is up! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: badvoc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 09:07:19 pm
content: Hi All,My username is Badvoc, i am a new member to this forum, it's great to be hereI was just wondering what the forums views are on through-hole components are? Do we think these types of components are going to be phased out in the future in favor of Surface Mount or the next new thing. And will this spell the end of hobbyist electronics for some people in the future?I have yet to attempt using Surface Mount components and still rely on breadboards and prototyping boards for my projects and tinkering about, so i try and keep a good stock of though-hole parts, but i haven't yet noticed any difficulty in obtaining these components, what is everyone else's experience or views on this subject?Thanks for readingBadvoc

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 09:19:14 pm
content: What do you mean, phased out in the future? They were phased out 20 years ago.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 09:26:48 pm
content: For ICs, they are all but phased out as the above poster said. Get used to surface mount, even if you are a hobbyist. DIP Trace and OSHPark are your friends. Other components, such as jacks, are through hole and will stay that way for mechanical strength. Nobody is going to mount a 1 pound transformer on a PCB without fasteners, for example, it would peel away with the first one inch drop. You still see some through-hole power transistors and the like, but there are surface packages taking over for this as well. This surface package from Fairchild is so sexy (and such good specs):I think a lot of the older similar through-hole parts are less expensive and get used under many circumstances because of price.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 09:47:08 pm
content: Through hole is already of the past.In some applications still preferred though, like connectors for rigidity, although in consumer products this is also more often not the case (because cost).Just learn to use surface mount. If through hole never existed we wouldn't know better. I think the hobby will not die out if there are still plenty of people that are able and willing to learn the new technologies (albeit at a lower pace or delayed compared to industry). And SMT is very accessible for hobbyists.If it is still too difficult, there is still a whole range of cheap boards on Ebay, Adafruit, SparkFun etc. with lots of fun chips already connected. Just a few pin headers and wires and you're up and running.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 10:16:21 pm
content: For ic's, sure, for high power active devices and large wattage / larger capacitance /inductance you are still in the relm of through hole to even chassis mount. Each has there role, but i agree there is less and less need to use them as computing trends towards lower power and our switching devices become more effective.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 11:54:04 pm
content: I'm in the same boat myself, I use mostly through hole and would hate to see it go. As a casual hobbyist I'm just not equipped for SMD. You need a very good microscope (not just zoom, but optical clarity, focus distance etc) and very precise tools. I've attempted even "large" SMD parts but without proper equipment it's very hard. You pretty much need to have proper circuit boards for them too, trying to solder them "free air" is much harder and more tedius. They move around too much and with only 2 hands you can only do so much. With through hole at least you stick them in the protoboard and flip them and the weight of the protoboard is enough for it to stay put while you solder. It's not so much that SMD is not doable it just takes much more effort if you're not properly equipped. But their real advantage is in mass automated production as threw hole is kinda a pain for that.If it comes to a point where it's hard to find stuff in through hole I suppose the norm is going to be to get break out boards made out for prototyping etc. You can buy them but they're kinda spendy if you want a lot of them but with how cheap it is to get PCBs made you could make your own. I need to sit down and learn KIcad properly so I can do that myself. I have a couple parts that I thought would be easy to deadbug but tried and it's super tedius to do. I'm sure I'd get it eventually but with proper boards it won't be as hard.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 02:29:19 am
content: Surface Mount Technology (SMT) is the technology of today, but Through Hole (TH) is still an effective method and I can see it hanging in there for a while yet. Through hole is more than a mature technology, it's manufacture is now so well developed that while a market exists, running the machines isn't an economic problem at this time. You will know when the market shrinks - prices will go up.However, this state of Electronics as a hobby has been discussed elsewhere - and there is one aspect of the nature of electronics that is clear: It is changing.In the early days, you would build a crystal set - where you actually had a crystal and a cat's whisker which you played around with to get your diode rectification. I still have the rather cumbersome setup my father had in the 1940's. When I was a kid, I bought a crystal set kit - which had a semiconductor diode. No fiddling required. The 'craft' had moved on. Nobody tries rolling their own diodes for this application these days - unless they are doing something retro, nostalgic or educational.When I was a young lad, ICs were something you had heard about, but would never have expected to have them to play with. Instead, my Philips EE20 kit had discrete components, with the most exotic being an AF114 transistor. DTL and RTL packages were around, but not big in my world. Then things moved on.The days of the 741, 555 and 7400 series TTL brought a whole new world of capability - and they were embraced with eagerness. The two transistor flip flop was replaced by the far more capable 555 timer in a vast array of applications. Our designs became more adventurous, our objectives more complex and the ability to achieve them far more readily found. Then things moved on ... again.We now live in a world of electronics where it is commonplace to be able to work with microprocessors, FPGAs and the like which are a scale of capability I could not have imagined 30 years ago, let alone be able to afford. A couple of years ago, I was able to buy 5 Arduino Nano clones for $1.97 each - delivered to my letter box. That level of price, performance and capability is something that would have blown my mind when I was in high school, yet today is commonplace.So it is with the packaging. We are looking at greater capability which brings greater complexity and the need for space to accommodate it - and since the older TH packages contained so much wasted space on the footprint, package reduction is only natural.Bottom line ... don't be afraid of SMD. All you need is a steady hand and either good eyesight or a headband magnifier. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty, it's how you learn.The days of setting up your own cat's whisker diode for a run-of-the-mill project are long gone.

author: badvoc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 07:01:54 am
content: Thanks everyone for all the useful feedback, much appreciated

author: badvoc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 07:08:11 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 05, 2017, 09:19:14 pmHi Monkeh, thanks for the reply. I was just wondering if these types of components would become unavailable to purchase in the future. I don't see a problem now, but just wondered if manufacturers will stop producing at some point.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 09:27:04 am
content: EDIT:Just had my coffee, sat down and re-read my previous post. Then I realized I was an arrogant prick with what and how I wrote previously. Anyway, here's the first PCB I ever made, not so much to brag about as to hopefully prove SMT is not rocket science and is the way to go, even for an amateur like myself.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 09:53:46 am
content: PTH is still very relevant in some situations.EXAMPLES:TO-220 devices when needed to be connected to a vertically mounted heatsink.SMA connectors on PCBs. Why? Mechanical robustness.DC power input connectors or photo jack connectors. Why? Mechanical robustness.Female header connectors. Why? Cost.Optocouplers. Why? Isolation, although you can now get many in SMD with the same isolation characteristics.PCB mounted speakers. Why? Cost and availability.High power resistors.Other than those and a few other examples, SMD is the way to go. These days, there is little reason or excuse not to use SMD in general. My eyesight is not crash hot, and yet I can solder 0402 resistors without too much fuss. I have even hand soldered 0201's - not much fun, but doable.For SMD, older folks might need some visual aids. You will need a decent soldering iron, decent solder, decent flux and decent tweezers. A hot air de-soldering tool helps too.PTH ICs are generally very old school. It's like wearing flares and body shirts. You'd look like a dag. Time to get with the times.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 09:57:01 am
content: TH ICs are being phased out. NXP dropped all their DIP parts for their logic ICs and other legacy ICs (like some old microcontrollers).However, I see this more of a materialization of a decision taken 10-20 years ago. Look up any modern analog signal or digital logic chip. Almost none of these are available in DIP. They are all at least SOIC, often SSOP packages. I wouldn't be surprised if more silicon vendors like TI will follow in the upcoming 5-10 years.Dave did a great soldering tutorial on SMT. There are not that many tools required to do the job, although some people may find a microscope a necessity if they have unfavorable eyesight. For me I only use a 4x loop for inspection.I wouldn't even get too dragged along into using flux for every solder joint. The stuff smells, sticks, makes a giant mess, and with good fresh solder there is also flux inside it. Only for QFP or QFN chips I will use flux to make sure the soldering job will succeed.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 10:03:27 am
content: VK3DRB, you can add other large passives to that list (capacitor, inductors) too. Easier to solder, soldering process doesn't stress the part as much, and more mechanically robust.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 11:13:45 am
content: My lab is stocked with TH parts, how am I supposed to transfer it all to SMT?I'm very slowly trying to buy only SMT and use only SMT but I have a lot of TH capacitors, resistors, op amps, diodes, bjt, fets, what not, and I can't afford to just stop use them and order a LOT of SMT parts.For a beginner who just started I can advice to use SMT when can, and try to order mostly SMD.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 12:38:43 pm
content: During one of my latest product designs, I could not afford to mount an SMD 3.5mm jack header, due to the fact that all the stress is taken by the solder joints and I did not want random jacks to detach themselves from the boards on the field. I found a very good PTH part, which allowed me even some space saving on the PCB, thanks to the straight vertical pins instead of SMD large pads.The choice between SMD and PTH was in some other cases more fine, e.g.: high voltage paths, mechanically/thermically stressed PCBs, solderability (does this word even exist in English?), producibility.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 02:28:22 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 05, 2017, 11:54:04 pmlet me disagree.. you don't even need a microscope. a cheap 4x magnifying glass is enough (the one old ladies use for knitting is good enough). SOIC packages and 1206 passives are doable without any kind of magnification. furthermore you need a pair of sharp tipped tweezers, solder paste and source of hot-air for soldering, if you're careful you can even use a hot-air gun for paint striping (low setting and heating board from 10-15cm till the paste flows). so no expensive equipment needed.Quotefully agree you have to have proper PCBs for SMD. that's why it makes sense to make your own PCBs (unless you want to wait weeks for your cheap boards from China)Quoteactually the effort is on par with building on proto-boards.. more effort goes into designing and making the PCB and much less effort into actual assembly, but at the end of the day it's the same amount of effort.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 03:24:40 pm
content: I'd say that connectors (and sockets or other potentially mechanically stressed components) will be available as through-hole (or at least have mechanical holding pins) - there's just no reasonable way to replace the mechanical stability this provides.Also, the heavier parts will be mostly through-hole - large ass capacitors, transformers, a lot of what makes a PSU.Also, the power parts seem to be more easily mountable onto heatsinks when they are through-hole.That said, in the future there will be less components available as through hole devices, for already stated reasons.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 05:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: hans on May 06, 2017, 09:57:01 amI don't see why some people feel the need to use a load of flux.I just use rosin cored solder for everything, The only time I need extra flux is when the board or components are badly oxidised.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 08:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on May 06, 2017, 02:28:22 pmThe issue I find is mostly trying to get everything to stay steady and making movements that are tiny enough. The natural shake of my hand is much higher magnitude than the size of most SMD pins. I guess you could consider the shake as "noise" and what you want to solder the "signal". The "noise to signal" ratio becomes very high when trying to work at such small parts. I can see fine with magnifier, I just can't actually maneuver that precisely. Eventually I get it, but I find it takes much more effort. I don't have any fancy tweezers or anything like that though, most of the stuff you buy these days is garbage crap from China, I have some tweezers but they don't really seem to pick up or hold stuff very well.One thing that's crossed my mind is to have some kind of spring loaded set of metal pins/fingers that can push down on chips, if you can have something keep it steady on a thick heavy piece of wood then you can solder magnet wire to each lead without the chip wanting to go everywhere.I guess bottom line is once you can find a proper way of doing it, it's probably not that hard after all. I do see that a lot of ICs are only in SMD so by trying to do only TH I'm really limiting myself in selection. I have these 30amp current sensors that are SMD and I under estimated how small they are when I ordered them. I'm surprised you can even pass 30 amps through something that small! You normally need like #10 conductor for 30 amps and the whole chip is smaller than that.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 10:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 05, 2017, 11:54:04 pmI guess I have to disagree. Surface mount is faster and easier than through-hole even for me, an aged hobbyist. I squirt some solder paste on the pads, place the parts and cook the board in one of two ways. The cheapest is to use a hot plate where the flat surface is sufficient for the size of the board. Like this:http://www.target.com/p/oster-single-burner-hot-plate-ckstsb100/-/A-13773420The second way is to modify a toaster oven (mine is the now obsolete Black & Decker InfraWave with an Arduino controller) by adding controls and, in my case, sheets of insulation:http://www.rocketscream.com/shop/reflow-oven-controller-shield-arduino-compatibleThe third possibility that I sometimes use is to just place the parts in the solder paste, hold them down with curved tweezers and hit the junction with a soldering iron. This is pretty slow compared to either of the other methods.SMD is NOT an issue. All you need is solder paste, flux, a decent soldering iron and, perhaps, a hot plate or toaster oven. Some people use the hot air rework tools to good advantage. I haven't found mine to be helpful.I don't even bother to buy stencils, I just dab the solder paste on by hand.QuoteAdapters for prototyping work well. They are just as hard to solder.I don't have a microscope but I have been getting a lot of use out of my Optivisor. I have two, one is a little more powerful but the field of view sucks. I have to get my head right down there.Drag soldering is another option. Just smear the pads with flux, place the part and hold it down. Put just a tiny bit of solder on the tip and hit the corner pins. Once the device is locked in place, put a little more solder on the tip and run it down the pins. It's amazing how well drag soldering works. Google for videos.I buy all my PCBs from ExpressPCB. As a result of the MiniBoard concept, my boardsize is limited. Using SMDs means I can still build projects with many dozens of components. ExpressPCB software is probably the least sophisticated on the market but it is very easy to use and autorouting never makes a mess. It doesn't have autorouting...

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 10:43:23 pm
content: Like I said if you have the right equipment (which you have) it's not as hard. I'm talking about someone who may not have all that equipment. With just a solder iron (even a crappy fire stick with a thick tip) and regular solder, you can do through hole much easier than SMD.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 11:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 06, 2017, 10:43:23 pmYes, through-hole is easier to solder but if there are no through-hole devices, it just doesn't matter.It turns out that a large tip works well for drag soldering. A fine pointed tip is almost worthless.I think my tip is a 1/8" chisel type and it is all I have ever used.Flux is the only thing that is really required that the beginner might not have. It isn't required to use solder paste. In fact, for drag soldering, it isn't even used.For the 'no extra equipment' approach to SMD, drag soldering works well. Just put flux on the pads, place and hold the component and drag a bit of solder off the tip. Add a little more solder and drag some more. It's truly easy!Flux is the key!OK, add SolderWick. It is inevitable that there will be solder bridges. Put some flux over the affected pins, lay the braid across and hit it with the iron. The problem with SolderWick is that it will sometimes take too much solder off. Expect to have to apply more flux and drag a bit more solder.SMD is easy, it doesn't have much of a startup cost and there is no reason to hang back because, sooner or later, you will be left behind. We're simply out of the DIP business.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 12:05:54 am
content: I usually use visual aids - microscope, Vision Mantis or a 5X Inspector Gadget. But a very handy device is a decent mobile telephone with a magnifier app. The app illuminates the object and you can vary the magnification. A good phone will have a nice macro.http://www.altronics.com.au/inspectagadget/

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 12:09:11 am
content: I'm all for newer technologyHas any company produced through-hole SMD adapters ?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 12:14:40 am
content: I still struggle with the idea of needing to switch to primarily SMD / PCB work for one-off prototypes or projects. If building several of something it is no doubt more efficient but I just don't see that for my hobbyist use - at least not yet.I used to think it as needed for anything but low frequency projects until I learned that dead bug and Manhattan style prototyping can work well for any of the speeds I'm likely to require in the near future.The lack of through hole ICs has forced me to learn to solder surface mount using adapter pcbs. Repair work has as well. But otherwise I have no need for it on a regular basis.The biggest drawback for me at this point is that I have absolutely no interest in spending time in front of a computer screen doing PCB layout. I spend way too much time on a computer for my day job. One of the main reasons I've taken up electronics as a hobby is to be able to build things with my hands and get away from the computer

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 09:02:12 am
content: I think the most valid advantage of through-hole work is that it's the best if you need to design + deliver a circuit in a single day. But if you have a week or two spare and want to make something truly wonderful, then PCB+SMD isabsolutelywhere it's at. And also, to borrow an analogy from cooking; it's worth making a distinction between "cooking time" (waiting for PCBs and parts to arrive) vs "preparation time" (actual time spent on designing PCBs, soldering, breaking veroboard tracks, etc). I'd confidently claim that for any decently complex project, the prep time for the SMD+PCB route is easily less than the throughhole+veroboard(or whatever) route.Quote from: mtdoc on May 07, 2017, 12:14:40 amEach to their own -- I did a reasonably complex veroboard design once, and grew tired of breaking all the tracks and having to design around the arbitrary imposition of horizontal traces. I encountered some small layout issue, and it just snowballed. I gave up at copied the same design down into the PCB software and the design took less time than the physical process of preparing (yet alone designing) the veroboard, it's a third the size and has twice the features. And this is a design that has a lot of through-hole (high power) components; being able to easily integrate SMD parts (an being able to access the huge library of SMD-only parts {i.e., anything developed in the last 20 years}) is yet another massive bonus on top of that. But see below, I understand that different people have different priorities so might see things differently.Quote from: mtdoc on May 07, 2017, 12:14:40 amInteresting -- I grew up in front of a computer screen, so I don't find it any more taxing than being awake. I.e., I consider designing PCBs on the computer to be an entirely different and distinct activity from my day job, software engineering.

author: TAMHAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 02:58:31 pm
content: This is a decision I recently had a BIG fight about with Raper, over a relatively simple design. We ended up going partially SMD, and I bought a Mantis to do hand soldering of prototypes. Here is what was our reasoning:Pro SMDSmallerOur design shrunk by 50% as we could stack a process computer above another planar's SMD part.CheaperNo words...Side-looking LEDsDon't beat me: having to bend 5000 LEDs to make "side looking ones" by hand is a nuissance. Also, getting multiple LEDs next to one another to "look" the same length is difficult. With side looking LEDs, its super easy.Pro and Contra SMDVibration resistance of SMALL parts - QuestionableAccording to various books I bought, SMD parts are more tolerant to vibration than their TTH counterparts. This is something my practical experience disputes: I saw multiple boards where SMD inductors (always inductors) had dislodged.Looking for some input from the esteemed quorum on the last point!

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 05:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on May 07, 2017, 09:02:12 amI've also been using a computers starting with a Z80 in the late 70sl. I spent a few years in my work life in the early 90s programming with LabView which has some similarities to PCB layout. Now I spend way to much of my work day in front of a screen, using an Electronic Medical Record.I have not doubt that once proficient with a PCB CAD software package that it's a quick and efficient way produce a small project. But for me there are 2 roadblocks:1)The thought of spending the screen time needed to become proficient with a PCB CAD software package makes me want to throw up.2) I'm an inpatient sort - and when I want to build something, I want it NOW - waiting for the turn around from the PCB fab would be a buzz kill for me. The thought of setting up the needed space to make my own boards is also a non-starter.Well, still I have no doubt that if I continue to advance in my knowledge and hobbiest skills, I will have to bite the bullet and tackle those obstacles. In the meantime I'm having fun doing it the old school way..

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 05:59:50 pm
content: Speaking of doing stuff the old school way it's mostly how I roll:TBH though, I think I would have been better off getting boards made even if it was a one of project, that took way longer than I had anticipated.But the nice part with this way is that I don't need to wait on a 3rd party or mess with making boards myself. I tried to dead bug SMD but it's way too tedius to do. It can be done, but just not my idea of fun. Haha. Suppose I need to figure out a better process to make it easier. Maybe some kind of jig or something. Then just make my own TH parts for one of projects using sections of perf board. For anything I want to do more than one of then it makes sense to get boards made. Or even get break out boards made instead of trying to deadbug.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 06:11:04 pm
content: Excellent Red Squirrel!The thing is, no matter how long it took, it was time spent using your hands versus staring at a screen and clicking a mouse.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 07:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on May 07, 2017, 06:11:04 pmso clicking a mouse is not "time spent using your hands"btw you can do your own boards ( i men manufacture them yourself) to have the "i made it with my hands" feeling. i'm making my own boards and using SMD parts and it's even better (in terms of good feeling from making it) than protoboarding because let's admit it.. nice green boards with smd parts are tending to be more aesthetic than protoboards.i'm not saying doing it the old way is inferior.. not at all.. i even admire the patience of people capable of routing wires for hours (like Red Squirrel above) , i'm just saying the smd boards are more aesthetic and you also have the "i made it with my hands satisfactory feeling" if you manufacture your boards at home like i dohere are some examples of my boards:

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 07:42:39 pm
content: Wow those actually home made? What kind of process did you use for that? Did not really figure you could do SMD with toner transfer as most printers won't have enough DPI. I imagine you're using something more precise like some kind of milling machine?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 07:52:03 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on May 07, 2017, 07:34:18 pmNo, using a mouse is not using one's hands in the sense of building something by hand. There's a certain primal satisfaction that some people feel when building something by hand. For some people it can be taken to an extreme - for example wood workers who only use hand tools - no power tools.The idea of making my own boards with the toner transfer, etc type methods using chemical etchant has no appeal to me but to each his or her own.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 08:00:16 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 07, 2017, 07:42:39 pmthose are not toner transfer but imaging is done with a cheap 600/1200dpi laser printer.the proces is:1. print the designs to polyester transparencies (polyester has great dimensional stability so the image is not distorted)2. clean the copper clad3. laminate riston dry-film photoresist with a cheapest office laminator possible4. use UV light (few cheap UV LEDs with a simple led driver circuit will do) to transfer artwork5. develop in washing soda (don't buy expensive developer solution, it's just plain cheap washing soda anyway)6. etch in ferric chloride or whatever other etchant you prefer7. remove photoresist with sodium hydroxide (regular drain cleaner) + clean the board8. laminate dynamask dry film solder mask to the board (again with the cheap laminator)9. UV light to transfer solder mask artwork10. develop in washing soda11. cure the solder mask with UV12. enjoy the productand start populate the parts. i use the cheap "mechanic" solder paste - using a toothpick to make little dabs of paste on the pads, then place components and heat it with hot air to reflow.the proces might seem to be expensive , but it's not... the polyester transparencies are $25 per 100 A4 sheets - so approx 25 cents per A4 sheet, the riston photoresist is approx 50cents per A4 sheet, dynamask is $3 per A4 sheet. chemicals are cheap $2 for a kilo of washing soda (you need approx 17grams per liter) and $3-4 for the drain cleaner (approx 20-30 grams per liter).quality 3W 400nm UV leds are approx $4 - you can even trasfer with a single UV led (but i have overkill homemade rig with 15 of them - takes 5 seconds to expose the image)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 08:43:34 pm
content: TH is in no way dead and in some little way we all need to help keep it alive......buy some and keep it in stock and alive.How will we be able to repair old equipment without it.Sure we mostly need to progress to SMD for new design, especially for commercial production.Here's what GK is doing in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-pong-for-1-or-2-players/timb is doing the TH PCB that is nearly finished and he's intending to make it available to us.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 03:13:06 pm
content: Sorry for posting in an old thread, I think the topic is still pertinent. I was wondering how you prototype on breadboards if TH is dead? How do you prototype with TH?

author: Algoma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 04:36:27 pm
content: Various surface Mount adapter boards are very common and easy to find. Simply surface mount your IC one one side and install the through hole pin headers.They come in all shapes and sizes for almost every format.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 02:50:24 am
content: But what about all the other components like resistors, diodes etc? And besides, isn't part of the point of prototyping on a breadboard to test whether the actual component will be suitable? If you use different SMT components on the "good copy" from the TH components on the breadboard, you might run into issues? No? Seems this way you're prototyping twice!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 03:32:56 am
content: If a question is asked, the asker is unsure.Since the asker is unsure, let me ask you this - have you considered how many devices are used by the military, of which GIGANTIC numbers are deployed, which are so vastly expensive that they’re expected to last (and be repairable) for decades - think that they need to be serviced, and the components needs to be VERY firmly attached, but which also need to be serviced in locations that can’t always be lifted out like an operating theatre (IE, on the battleground) and how many are legacy industrial devices which continue in manufacture as nothing “better” is needed, and their systems simply depend on things (“if it ain’t broke, don’t ‘fix’ it”)I don’t see it. What I do see is many other forums having the same type of thread, over ten years ago, and yet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ here we still are, and here through hole still is, still existing and doing very well thank you.Not every single electronic device is a cheap piece of eBay tat that can be thrown away after a year.Look at this:Defence contracts are funded by bottomless pockets, and if they say THT stays, nothing else matters - that’s the final word on it, and since lots of our technology descends from military research… well… that’s all there is to it.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 03:48:23 am
content: Quote from: PixieDust on December 28, 2021, 02:50:24 amMy personal workflow is to only breadboard discrete subassemblies.E.g. aBH1620on an adaptor plate, along with a few passives, to see how it works and to fine-tune the values of those passives, and maybe test a MOSFET or microcontroller pin to turn the whole lot off. Such subassemblies are translated into SMT on a first revision PCB, which has extra test points, solder bridges, 0 Ohm resistors, etc.More complex sensors, drivers, etc. usually come on breakout boards and don't need to be breadboarded, just connected to the microcontroller dev board with Dupont cables.You can't easily breadboard the really fast stuff anyway because of reflections, etc.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 04:17:02 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on December 28, 2021, 03:48:23 amYeah, I do the same. Only very limited breadboarding now before making a PCB.I've made tons of stuff via the veroboard method, and it's very laborious and time consuming to bend individual bits of wire to connect everything. Then when I blew up things they were very difficult to repair/desolder so I tossed them aside most of the time.I would also have to do a quasi-pcb design to plan out where all the parts went anyways, so I figured I might as well go straight to PCB.I even surface mount my old through hole components now.Even your TO-220 packages will work fine SMD if you have enough room and don't need to dissipate much power.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 06:26:52 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 28, 2021, 03:32:56 amYep I've seen that video, but then you also read through threads on this forum and other forums which all point at the fact that ICs for example are pretty much all in SMT format now. Similarly, copper boards aren't cheap and SMT reduces the footprint quite drastically which is quite appealing in of itself. If you need to place SM components, why not switch over to SM for everything?EDIT: But I see what you're saying, higher power stuff won't be making to SMT any time soon. I guess the following from a random article sums it up:"Overall, surface mounting will almost always prove more efficient and cost-effective than through-hole mounting. It is used in more than 90 percent of PCBAs today. However, special mechanical, electrical, and thermal considerations will continue to require THM, keeping it relevant well into the future."Thanks "I wanted a rude username" & "John B" I've only built less than 10 boards so far, some through hole and some surface mount. The TH I tested in a breadboard, the surface mount I just created the board and threw it out when it didn't work as expected and just made a new one. I guess that's how it works these days with SM.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 12:30:28 pm
content: I read the post in full...Some comments hold very true andshouldhold for quite some time..Nevertheless blindly stating that THT is dead or any morbid thinking is aTOTAL BULLSHITReason being (some already said):- First and foremost there is no way to hold some parts unless using THT- High power devices no matter howcutethey craftpackagingrely on heat dissipation on the PCB itself.. needless to say how stupid this is.. so THT is required to mount large heat sinks devices attached firmly- More and more and more.. and more... I am stuck wasting my time looking for or developing myselfbreakoutboards... just because there is no possible way to do real devel. in something that tiny or with ZERO pins or head connectors... so ..THT even to fit HEADERS...The more stupid answers probably should remember that unless making everything in a "virtual model computer base thing..." the whole SMT is meant to large production...not develop.. not even a single piece of tiny shit.. ..we just ccan not mount or handle that dust like parts...SMT is cheap affordable.. easy to automate... period.it is not meant otherwise..The rest goes THT - put the header connectors.. the missing proper size.and real world mechanics... we can not have peek and place machines everywhere..and it just makes no sense such stupid sized thing ...Paul

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 01:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: PixieDust on December 27, 2021, 03:13:06 pmWho would use breadboards anyway? The major thing I recall from breadboard are flaky contacts. I use strip board which works just fine with SMT parts and chips can be mounted dead-bug style. Besides that most of the analog circuits I design start life in a simulator and more often than not I just create a PCB to test the circuit.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 02:09:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2021, 01:47:25 pmInteresting, I was wondering how widespread SPICE use is.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 02:26:56 pm
content: Quote from: eti on December 28, 2021, 03:32:56 amYou are suggesting that the military uses THT parts because of reliability. As a blanket statement, that is a complete and utter fabrication.Yes, the military (and aerospace) generally demands high reliability, and often demands extremely long repairability and parts availability. But that simply ensures old component types will remain available (be it by continued manufacturing or by suppliers stockpiling parts). It doesn't say anything at all about whether or not an old component type is superior to a newer type.A THT component need not be more reliable than an SMD equivalent. For example, SMD components often do better at vibration resilience.You also imply that THT is more serviceable than SMD, and that, too, is only true to an extent. Each technology has its own challenges, and with the right tools, service is a routine thing. With the proper tools, an SMD component is often easier to replace than the THT version. I think people often think SMD is "harder" to work with, because they're working with tools fundamentally designed for THT, so yeah, it's gonna suck. But if you get tools designed for SMD, it's easy. (And those tools, in turn, suck at working with THT parts.)And may I remind you that the military (and aerospace) was among the very first users of SMD parts? They've been using them since the 1960s, right alongside THT components.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 03:02:21 pm
content: I use through hole when doing initial prototypes. The parts are larger, you can see what they are without using a scope, and you can disconnect them and reconnect them in various configurations more easily.You can also shove them into a breadboardFor later designs, I use as much SMD stuff as I can. I still like to have things like ethernet ports through hole, but this is only because you don't save any space because the connector itself is massive, and for fixing strength. Smaller connectors like smaller USB connectors can go SMD.You can just do more with less space when you go SMD IMO

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 04:20:52 pm
content: I strongly prefer through hole for connectors as well for the mechanical strength.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 12:11:49 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2021, 01:47:25 pmSomeone starting out in electronics, learning from books, YouTube etc, being able to quickly change parts/values etc on a breadboard, I personally think when starting out, it’s a necessity.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 01:52:14 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2021, 02:26:56 pmThat must be rubbish, I mean you couldn't use nascent surface mount technology, stick it in a dirty great Saturn V rocket and launch it at the moon, could you?Saturn V Launch Vehicle Digital Computer board.Oh. Oh yes you could.Modern SMD chips are much more reliable than THT chips. I've been using tiny little DHVQFN16 packages for boring old 74 series logic recently.These both literally contain the same silicon die. One is a a lot cheaper and takes up a lot less room on the board.It would be pointless to do the "deciding which is left as an exercise for the student" bit.Nexperia (nee NXP) have this to say about the SMD packages:Quote from: Nexperia Logic Handbook(Emphasis mine)It's intuitive. A package that weighs milligrams attached to a board by solder over almost 50% of its area versus a package that weighs perhaps 100x as much cantilevered off the board by lots of flexible metal pins that are subject to vibration induced fatigue (remember how quickly copper work hardens and breaks, I bet we've all deliberately snapped a copper wire in a few seconds by repeated bending).

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 09:50:30 pm
content: QuoteIs it? The DIL device scores by being able to have its legs bent overandsoldered down on the other side of the board. That isn't going to come loose too easily. OTOH the SMD device is held on solely by the strength of the glue holding down the tiny pad. Levered with a screwdriver, as a test, I know which will come off first

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 10:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on December 30, 2021, 09:50:30 pmYou might use glue, the rest of us use solder. This may also be a clue as to why you've been having difficulty getting SMD stuff to work.But seriously, brazing/soldering about 50% of the area of a very light part (~10mg for a DHVQFN16) to a board, as compared to suspending a heavier part (DIL16 1100mg) off the board on flexible metal legs itisintuitive which will be stronger, unless one has no mechanical intuition. Similarly the service loads on parts are a result of their mass being accelerated and decelerated, not some gorilla deliberately attacking them with a screwdriver.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 10:28:19 pm
content: QuoteAh, a bit too quick on the clever reply so you missed:QuoteDon't care how strong your soldered joint is if the pad lifts. This is why even SMD connectors often have either relatively huge mounting pads or hole for pins to be stick into.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 11:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on December 30, 2021, 10:28:19 pmConsider those might also be for shifting heat.Otherwise I'm with Cerebus, less mass in a high vibration environment has to be better provided the PCB is also restrained properly.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 11:51:11 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on December 30, 2021, 10:28:19 pmAny arguments about the bonding of the foil to the substrate apply equally well to a through hole part but frankly that's irrelevant; all the mechanically failed through hole parts I've seen it's the actual leads that have broken, not pads. Both SMD and THT parts have adequate mechanical connection to keep them attached to the board except under extreme circumstances or deliberate attack. What the THT parts have that the SMD don't is a vibration failure mode that is much more important than whether the part can be ripped from the board or not. As I say, all the real life mechanical failures that I've seen have have been from that mode.Arguing about connectors when we were talking about chip parts is just doing a bait and switch. Connectors are always going to require relatively heavy mechanical connections to boards if they're board mounted, whether they are SMD or THT. The 34 way through hole connectors I've got on order have bolt holes on them for a reason, 3M aren't expecting the solder pins to provide an adequate mechanical connection on their own.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 12:07:07 am
content: QuoteReally? It's as easy to pull a bent and soldered leg back through a hole as it is to peel off a pad?QuoteThough that didn't stop you throwing in that littlebon mot. Either it's irrelevant or it's worth making a point, can't have both.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 12:22:20 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on December 31, 2021, 12:07:07 amYou were the one who brought up bonding strength. If I don't answer you point about it you'll say I'm glossing over it, if I do answer it you act as if I brought it up as a fallacious argument. Make your mind up, either is it important, or it's a red herring; you seem to want it both ways depending on whether it bolsters your point of view or not.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 02:17:49 am
content: There was a time when I absolutely hated surface mount. But after kitting myself out and practicing a bit I now prefer surface mount. Look closely at attached perfboard bottom side pic. They make assembly so much cleaner.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 02:50:35 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on December 30, 2021, 11:51:11 pmWow really? Interesting. I presume the failed components were dual lead? I can't imagine a single lead on an IC breaking, but I guess a single lead of a diode for example, well I can see that happening.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 03:57:57 am
content: Quote from: PixieDust on December 31, 2021, 02:50:35 amYeah the things with more leads tend to fair better. It's usually poorly supported TO-220s and their ilk that are the first things to go, then radial electrolytic caps, and only then small resistors, diodes and the like. There's pretty much a direct relationship between the ratio of device mass to total lead area cross-sectional area and the probability of failure. I've only seen these in things designed for relatively light duty applications (or carelessly designed), things intended for harsh environments tend to get the extra attention to ruggedness that they deserve.The classic culprits? Audio gear designed for domestic use pressed into semi-professional use on the road. Falls apart in no time at all.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 07:17:18 am
content: Makes sense.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2022, 03:20:20 am
content: Through-hole will never die.