UK power grid situation!! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 07:10:13 pm
content: Does anyone else watch Grid Watch in the UK?http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/Consumption is a hair under 45GW as we speak, just on the orange warning sector for max grid capacity!!If it wasn't for wind contribution at almost 10GW it would be a close thing!!

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 07:32:01 pm
content: You may have noticed in the previous week wind made virtually no contribution at all.Energy policy such as it is has been wrecked by green policies, insufficient non-fickle generating capacity combined with overload by heat pumps & electric cars.

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 07:48:34 pm
content: Absolutely! This is the problem with so called renewables, intermittency! Wind and solar on an optimum day can knock out 50% or a little more, but the next day, nothing, or close to it!! It fluctuates so much that it becomes difficult to deal with unless there is capacity in the system for other sources. If it wasn't for base load capacity provided by gas and nuclear it would be blackout city!!Not as if there is actually a climate problem anyway, it's all hyped up nonsense from the green agenda. Problem is now, it's being used to keep gas and oil retail prices at the elevated prices they have reached, even if the market price falls.There is so much BS being pitched by MSM and political interests, that have absolutely no basis in scientific fact, and Joe public just believes it, like a religious cult.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 09:47:23 pm
content: The UK grid has been predicted to be under high stress for the last few weeks. This is not news or surprise to the ESO (National Grid, but soon to be divested.)Nor is this particularly down to renewable energy, and I can't really understand why this myth persists so much. The problem is that we have had two nuclear reactors go down for refueling but at the same time a steam leak reported on Heysham 2 NPP, at a time when energy demand is ramping up because of the colder temperatures and events like the football. The UK grid has more than enough capacity even with nil wind, but we would need to burn a lot more natural gas and maybe some coal. Demand shedding is also used at times of high loading (usually agreed well in advance with high load customers), as well as frequency balancing via the very expensive Demand Flexibility Service.Renewable energy being intermittent isn't really a problem if you have grid scale storage & models show that once sufficient storage is available a power outage is not going to occur even in 1-in-1000 year event scenarios. That requires that the wind power be scaled up to something like 3x the nominal grid capacity and combined with several days worth of storage usually in the form of synthetic natural gas, ammonia or maybe hydrogen. These are being modelled on the small scale for now. For smaller countries (micronations mostly) batteries alone would probably be sufficient, though they are unlikely to make much sense for countries the size of the UK except as frequency reserve.Neither is this grid stress caused by EVs or heat pumps. You may as well have swallowed a copy of the Daily Mail with that tripe. EVs represent around 2% of all cars for the UK right now (~650k total). If every one was plugged in simultaneously, and using a 7kW charger, you might see 4.5GW of additional load - quite significant. But the reality is these are usually not charged all at once. If you assume a high end average of 15,000 mi/yr and a low end efficiency of 3mi/kWh then you're adding 5,000kWh of additional load per EV, around 3.25TWh, to a grid that generated 310TWh last year. It's barely even a blip! As for heat pumps, in 2020 only 100,000 homes had them. There are 25 million homes, so this is an even smaller figure than EVs. Many more homes have plain resistive heating, like large parts of Wales for instance, where over 11% of homes use resistive heating. This is actually enough of a concern that the UK grid operator does plan for cold weather scenarios in this part of the country, ensuring transmission lines have sufficient capacity being the biggest risk.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 09:55:28 pm
content: Keep your garbage political takes off this site.Current wind and solar clearly meet the definition for renewable energy.https://www.factcheck.org/2018/03/wind-energys-carbon-footprint/https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-wind-nuclear-amazingly-low-carbon-footprints/

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 09:57:45 pm
content: We need more nuclear.Storage is a big problem for renewables and there are currently no solutions for the UK.Heat pumps aren't much of an issue, if they're firstly just uses to replace resistive heating, as that would result in a net reduction in power draw. It might be more of a problem, if everyone had one though.EVs aren't a problem now, but the grid needs to be expanded for the time when everyone has them. It's true their batteries could be used as storage, but a lot of people wouldn't like the idea of their car's battery being used as a free grid buffer.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 10:16:01 pm
content: wonder how much is being wasted on christmas light trails ?i know of one install that requires a 300A 3 phase supply.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 10:28:56 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 05, 2022, 10:16:01 pmWhen was that?Modern LED Christmas lights hardly use any power.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 10:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 05, 2022, 10:16:01 pm*sniff, sniff*. What? 300A * 230V * sqrt(3) = 117kW? You know of a Christmas lights install that uses 117,000W? A typical LED bulb would be under 0.05W, so they have over 2.3 million LEDs? Over, say, a 45 day "festive season" those lights would consume over 126MWh of electricity, at a cost of around £5m...

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 10:43:56 pm
content: And they think these “EV” pipe dreams are gonna happen 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 10:57:33 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 05, 2022, 10:39:06 pmOld-fashioned full-size Christmas tree incandescent bulbs pulled about 7 W. They must have used over 16,000 bulbs in that display. No wonder that they are now hard to find...

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 12:28:01 am
content: Quotethey dont,butQuote

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 12:32:24 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 05, 2022, 09:57:45 pmOn the other hand, quite a lot of people will love the income they get from satisfying the demand pricing. The use of car storage will be far from free.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 12:55:39 am
content: Look, the governments are clueless and inept. Also EVs are greenwash eco bullshit. Even the supposedly most “intelligent” people have become brainwashed and have bought into this idiotic sci-fi daydream.It ain’t gonna work. We all KNOW they’re a scam - they’re not more economically sound, and I’m not gonna sit here and parrot science and figures to people intelligent enough to do it for themselves. It’s not ABOUT figures and graphs, it’s about personal biases and the middle/upper classes projecting guilt and virtue signalling as they fly around in their Buck Rogers supercharged milk floats 😂 hoping “Scientists will work it out in the end”What a load of utter ##### bollocks. It’s a daydream and one day you WILL all wake up to it, because reality overrides daydreams.Do your own research and you’ll soon see it doesn’t add up. I don’t come here to “justify” my views - you don’t need to justify yours either. My point is that they’re a joke which is halfway matured, and the full punchline has yet to be properly delivered. Wait and see - you’ll either laugh and carry on or cry in a tantrum because you blindly invested in a system which is unsustainable.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:04:53 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 05, 2022, 10:39:06 pm300A * 230V * 3 * cos phi actually, so 207kVA apparent power.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:08:27 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 06, 2022, 12:55:39 amSpeak for yourself, please. I certainly do not need you telling me what I do and do not know, and while unlike you I don't speak for others, I have strong doubts anyone else here feels differently.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:21:05 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 05, 2022, 09:57:45 pmIs there a significant amount of electric resistance heating in the UK still? It's still common in apartmens in the US and there are still older houses around that have it but at least in this region natural gas is more common and heat pumps are rapidly gaining. Given the much higher cost of energy over there I'd have thought resistance heat was largely a thing of the past.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:25:55 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 06, 2022, 01:08:27 amAs I clarified very firmly, I speak for myself. I’m not “telling” you anything. Be more secure in yourself, you don’t need to justify, defend etc. My views are not yours and vice versa. Don’t lose any sleep over it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:30:13 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 05, 2022, 10:28:56 pmMine use about 900W for the outdoor lights plus about 260W for the tree and another 80W or so for other misc indoor lights. Most LED Christmas flicker and/or have icky monochromatic colors, I have incandescent C9, C7, C6 and miniature lights that look much nicer IMO. It's well worth the ~$35 extra I spend on electricity.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:39:46 am
content: The UK should adopt their own version of Ohmconnect, a program that rewards conserving during peak times.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:47:10 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 06, 2022, 01:39:46 amThey have been carrying out trials in the UK, of something vaguely similar, which seem to have had complaints that the payouts, are way, too low, to attract customers. So I think it is being revised.Another complaint, is only customers with smart meters, will be able to join the service.Many links possible, here is one of them:https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/04/britains-biggest-suppliers-to-offer-discounts-for-off-peak-electricity-usage

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:49:19 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 06, 2022, 01:25:55 amThe royal we, is it? Or have you already forgotten your own words?

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:50:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2022, 01:21:05 amGas is common in and around cities as well as built-up areas. But out in the countryside, electricity and oil are used for heating.Sadly, we have very old housing stock in the UK which results in poor insulation and heating systems that run more than they need to.Government and housing developers don't want to build houses even close to touching passive house spec and most people don't want to pay for it upfront either.Typical of British culture to not plan/pay ahead and then get future generations to pay for it...As for the nutjobs in here.Most people in the UK know what climate change is and understand that humans are the cause of the rapidly increasing temperature changes and bad weather we are having.But we are all fed up with the political class, corporations, and celebrities talking down to us and making out it is us that are the problem while they all fly in their private jets, live in luxury housing, and can afford to heat and eat their way through winter.Most of us want green power sources but we know the storage technology is not here yet.Most of us want green transportation, but not everyone can afford £30k plus cars that have a 5-8 year battery life span.Most of us want to generate our own power and store it, but we cannot afford £20-30k worth of solar and battery storage.The issue with green energy at the moment is its cost of it. It is why people on good salaries can buy that sort of stuff. Yea, they are going to act all smug about it. They have something the majority of people don't have access to. So what. They are paying the introductory price that will eventually come down as the technology improves and becomes affordable.More needs to be done. We are not going to stop oil production tomorrow or the next day. But if we can work towards ending it, and rebuilding our infrastructure so we are not reliant on cartel-controlled energy producers, that is a start.Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 06, 2022, 01:39:46 amWe have tariffs that discount and overcharge during offpeak/peak hours.Ideal for EV charging overnight, but they do overcharge during normal hours. So it is only really worth it if you use a lot during the night for EV or other things like hot water tanks or storage heating.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 02:24:59 am
content: Quote from: Jackster on December 06, 2022, 01:50:08 am“Most of us want…”Have you conducted a door to door survey of all 65M+ Brits, to quantify your “most of us”?

author: Andy Watson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 02:39:21 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 06, 2022, 02:24:59 amAnybody who didn't "want" such things would have to be stupid or wilfully ignorant. Take your pick.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 02:43:40 am
content: Quote from: Andy Watson on December 06, 2022, 02:39:21 amWow. Take care.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 02:56:00 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2022, 01:21:05 amElectric heating is a minority in the UK (share dependent on dwelling type), with electric storage being somewhat blurry (do you include direct "brick" storage and hot water storage?).https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/insights_paper_on_households_with_electric_and_other_non-gas_heating_1.pdfA salient quote:QuoteSo to the usual complainers.... Times are changing, fossil fuels that used to be cheap are no-longer (UK like Australia sold it all off cheap) and that isn't coming back. So demand cheap and always available energy all you like, thats not something that exists any more. Either pay more for availability or accept that cheap energy will be a variable thing.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 03:11:20 am
content: Quoteso something which stores the energy when available would be ideal,like the box of bricks currently heating this place.thankfully there not lot 20 compliant.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 03:25:01 am
content: There are speculators and traders of electricity that really profit from all this. No homeowner here can purchase electricity months in the future, yet the leeches can.We're getting anarctic blasttonight with temps below -30°C which causes grid demand to go to the max. The UK has a bit smaller one I see.Electricity pricing can go from typical $0.11/kWh to almost $1.00/kWh just because of a "shortage". How much the shortfall is, it can take one power plant to trip and go offline, a loss of say 500MW to cause a crisis. Remember Enron did this on purpose.Grid contingency is always pretty small, there is never that much excess generation available to handle bad weather.I think governments need to punt the leeches - the traders, speculators who gouge consumers for a living.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 03:47:19 am
content: Quoteno chance,it was the goverbent who flogged the state owned power company off tothere mateshighest bidder here in the uk.and that moneys long gone to pay the same mp's second home energy bill

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 03:53:21 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 06, 2022, 03:11:20 amSure sounds like you're one of the usual complainers that needs batting down.... being that lot 20 does not change existing installs, restricts the market for new installs, and there are new storage heaters on the market with LOT20 compliance.So, still wanting to dream of the past?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 03:58:53 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 06, 2022, 03:53:21 amI wonder how supercilious and condescending you’d be if you met them in person and they were 6’9” and built like a Russian wrestler?Internet bravado doesn’t work IRL. Being a man includes not talking down to people.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 06:45:42 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 06, 2022, 03:58:53 amThen why do you do it all the time?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 08:03:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2022, 01:21:05 amAround 7% of all properties are electric resistive heated, but in some areas it's 25%, like the Welsh countryside and Scottish highlands. Parts are rural enough that delivery of oil on a truck to homes is expensive, and there's no piped gas, so electric heating is all you have left. Some others get heated by tanks of propane which get delivered and exchanged before the winter season.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 12:37:32 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 05, 2022, 09:47:23 pmAnd the permanent shutdown of more AGRs (Hunterston B and Hinkley Point B) this year, which could have been extended 18 months but UKGov declined to fund the safety work.https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/01/hinkley-point-b-nuclear-plant-could-be-spared-imminent-closure

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 12:48:09 pm
content: Quote from: eti on December 06, 2022, 03:58:53 amRich that coming from you...

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 01:05:12 pm
content: bonjour à tousSimilar situation in EU, USA, elsewhere.electric generation, transmission and distribution systems were designed and installed decades or even a century ago.The radical changes in generation and load over space and time, require total review and redesign of the sources, grid, controllers and load management.Nowadays the utilities are controlled by laws, regulatory compliance and politicians.Most of the experienced power and nuclear engineers are long retired.Finally the old line manufacturers, GE, Westinghouse, Brown Boveri, ABB are fully booked years out or have off-shored manufacture to China.Thus the issues are long, deep and very wide ranging.Suggest a natural gas/ propane permanent install backup generator for 25 kva or less eg your house or small firmsJust the ramblings of an old retired EE, 1968Bon courageJon

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 02:47:33 pm
content: Well stuff all this BS climate change crisis nonsense, I'll carry on installing my Lister CS Startomatic diesel generator as a CHP unit running on waste engine oil, which will make me energy independent as long as I can scrounge 500 to a 1000 gallons of oil per annum.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 03:21:58 pm
content: QuoteScrounge? surley you'll be charging garages to remove there waste oil for them,after all they can no longer burn it to heat the garage so the only option is to pay for its safe removal and disposal

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 03:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 06, 2022, 03:21:58 pmBurning other people's waste oil is illegal without a license in England.Government can do it though..

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 04:10:02 pm
content: When I worked in Halifax, W.Yorks, a car garage opposite our office would frequently burn off their waste oil. It would cover the entire area in a thick black smoke and made the air unpleasant to breathe. I would be glad if that practice were to be banned, maybe it should be allowed if it can be done cleanly, but it is probably better to take the waste oil and recycle it into something else.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 06:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on December 06, 2022, 05:54:29 pmThat was in the summer, it's now winter. Sad how?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 06:13:27 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 06, 2022, 04:10:02 pmIt can be done cleanly, not as clean as burning natural gas but it shouldn't be belching out black smoke.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 08:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2022, 01:30:13 amThe Christmas lights you've seen are complete junk. I have a set which is run off 24VDC, or high frequency 24VAC PWM rather and are flicker free. They hare saturated colours, but that's what I like. It is possible to get pastel phosphor converted LEDs, which some people prefer.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 08:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 06, 2022, 08:33:34 pmI've tried everything I can find, I'm a lighting enthusiast, I even tried some fancy high end "TruTone" C7 bulbs, the colors look great but like most LED holiday lighting they flicker. I've considered trying to run them off of filtered DC but they're expensive enough that it's cheaper to just stick with incandescent. If you like the saturated LED colors that's great, personally I think they're icky, the green is always that gross lime green, the red is more orange than a true deep blood red, the blue is the same saturated blue of almost all blue LEDs, my eyes can't focus it properly and it looks blurry. I've looked at everything available and so far found nothing acceptable. For whatever reason, Christmas lights that use a transformer or power supply are not a thing here, the LED lights are universally series strings powered directly from the mains, or individual 120V bulbs wired in parallel.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 09:11:22 pm
content: Interesting (about Christmas LED flicker).With cheap LED strings from Home Depot (one multi-colored and one white), operating from 60 Hz, I do not perceive any noticeable flicker.On the white string (pre-installed on a fake tree), I do see a spatial effect due to the small luminous surface inside a glass envelope, but it is time-stationary.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 09:21:28 pm
content: The last set of Xmas lights I bought came with an SMPS that outputs very smooth 24VDC and even on the PWM setting the flicker is barely noticeable. (I can generally see flicker up to a few hundred Hz by scanning my eyes across something, but much more than that is imperceptible.)I would guess a DC SMPS is probably cheaper than an AC transformer nowadays, plus it automatically makes the lights safe for outdoor usage (though in my experience, unless you get higher quality ones, they won't last long due to corrosion at the base of the LEDs.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 09:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 06, 2022, 09:11:22 pmMy mom has some LED lights on a tree outside, she says she can't see the flicker, but it's very obvious to me. I took a picture with my phone while rapidly panning the phone and it clearly showed the trail of dots effect. I have always been sensitive to flicker, especially in my peripheral vision and even more so when I'm tired. Even when it's high enough frequency that it is not readily visible when starting at it, flicker still shows up when I rapidly scan my eyes past something. I'm hopeful that LED lights with proper power supplies will become common at some point, and ideally some different colors, I really don't like the lime green, saturated blue and orangish red.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 09:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 06, 2022, 09:21:28 pmIt probably is, but transformer powered Christmas lights were never a thing here, the first time I ever saw such an arrangement was when I met a friend in the UK that shares my interest in lighting. Ours are mostly just series strings of LEDs that are half wave self rectifying, some try to mitigate the flicker by having the LEDs staggered across two wires in opposite directions. On top of their other deficiencies, my experience is they don't even last as long as incandescent. Probably because they're run hard to make them bright enough and they have no protection from spikes.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 09:38:25 pm
content: I don't think I've seen a purely mains powered set of LED fairy lights in a long time - andpossibly never. Incandescent ones were nearly exclusively mains powered, even the outdoor ones usually using ruggedised cables and bulbs. I wonder if there was a regulation prohibiting them when they were introduced or at least once they became popular, grandfathering in the old design which remained for sale up until a few years ago. Not sure how it varied across the world, but the old incandescent sets in the UK used things like "fuse bulbs" (designed to blow at a lower voltage once too many 'self-shorting' filament bulbs had failed) and were notorious for leading to house fires especially on real trees; the fire brigades around here asking people to switch off their lights at night & watch pets and children around them.I have fond (and not so fond) memories of finding the dead bulbs in a set with my father. He had a little tester which contained a 9V PP3 battery, which was enough to light up the bulb (I think they were 12V/1W rated, so a common arrangement was 20-24 bulbs in series plus one fuse bulb for each 'run'.) In earlier days the flasher function was provided by another thermal bulb, like older car indicators, but it went electronic before the switch to LEDs, I would guess using triac dimmers.Nowadays, I am sure that 24V/3W SMPS costs around a dollar to make, so likely much cheaper than better insulation etc.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 10:00:54 pm
content: It's probably largely to do with the fact that the voltage there is double what it is here. Starting I think sometime in the 80s miniature lights required crimped terminals in the sockets, heavier wires and fused plugs. I have some from the 70s that have very thin wires which is nice because they're much lighter and more flexible, but they are fragile and the wires are only wrapped around the metal plates pressed into the sockets and the plugs are not fused. Throughout the incandescent era there were C7 and C9 size 120V bulbs in parallel or miniature strings with groups of 2.5, 3.5, 6 or 12V bulbs in series powered directly from 120V. I've never seen an incandescent set with a transformer in this part of the world.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 10:06:36 pm
content: I grew up with the 120 V (actually, this wasmanyyears ago at 110 or 117 V) bulbs in parallel, but 40 years ago it was the series-parallel combination of lower-voltage smaller incandescent bulbs connected to 120 V, 60 Hz. The smaller bulbs were a pain to replace, if I remember right. Recently, my Christmas bulbs are LEDs with a small adapter supplied by the manufacturer.The colored strings are a bit too saturated for my taste, but I hide them in the greenery.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 12:03:06 am
content: james_s, regarding comments on LED flicker:Scope showing approx. 5 Usec. repeat periods, or about 233 khz, if the LED is using a buck converter (oscillator with inductor coil to boost voltage).I get the 'dots' lingering visual effects, especially in side vision. But, the timing seems wrong, when reconciled with speed of (head) movement...the oscillator rate seems more like 3khz or something, a puzzle.Do you have any info, on Manufacturer, model ?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 12:23:32 am
content: QuoteI'm fully aware what lot 20 is and its scope,I'm also aware ,from real life figures ,not reading random numbers in a brochure that a like for like lot 20 compliment heater will actual consume MORE energy than these ancient heaters

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 01:48:17 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 07, 2022, 12:23:32 amTalking about resistive heating (off peak electricity heating into bricks), how can consuming more power result in less heating ? ? ? all the energy ends up as heat with almost perfect unity.or more accurately if you come back and say that there is no impediment to buying another storage heater, then what on earth were you saying originally (quoted above) ? What is better about the old heaters that you cannot buy? Resistive heating dump into a brick is pretty much impossible to screw up.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 09:22:53 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 07, 2022, 01:48:17 amJust a typical conspiracy theorist, has to hate something new that the EU/government introduced because that's automatically wrong.Pay them no mind.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 01:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 05, 2022, 09:47:23 pmBut we don't...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 02:03:05 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on December 07, 2022, 01:59:16 pmGood news, we also don't have a grid that's entirely dependent upon renewable energy either.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 02:09:02 pm
content: QuoteOr maybe somebody who has spent time testing a site were tenants complained about an increase in electricity use after there flats were rewired and the old heaters changed for new.For a start there not a direct replacement as they require a permanent supply along with the existing timed supply.The older heaters didn't have a constant power draw ,just in case you want to see the room temperature by an app on your phone,consuming several watts even thought the heater isn't doing anything apart from showing the time and temperature on its display,from memory it was about 1kw/h every 2 weeks. On the particular model was a "safety feature" which ,if the temperature fell below a non adjustable level,would turn on the heater,both pointless as it also had a frost stat option,and a bit of surprise come bill time,Turning off the permanent supply to get rid of these "features" also turns off the economy 7

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 02:28:00 pm
content: None of those functions are required by Lot20 though, it's just about including a mandatory timer. If the manufacturer of the heater puts a crap timer and extra frost-stat in then... well, don't use that particular model! That's nothing to do with the EU, and I bet the residents would be far more upset by leaving the heater on for longer than a few watts in a digital controller. A simple electronic timer meets the requirements of Lot20, no requirement exists for the frost stat etc.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 03:43:35 pm
content: Quotegood luck finding oneQuoteWhy does a night storage heater,connected to an economy 7 supply need a built in timer?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2022, 08:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 07, 2022, 02:28:00 pmEnergy saved in having a temperature setback during the sleeping/away hours would easily swamp the couple of watts from standby & fan.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 06:05:30 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 06, 2022, 03:25:01 amThis is one of the downsides of large power plants that often seems to get ignored. Large power plants focus an essential system for a large area into a series of places.1 problem in the distrubition network or the plant causes a big problem for a lot of people.Nice thing about renewables is small, self reliant systems can be spread out such that 1 problem in 1 small area only impacts that small area.

author: Mark
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 10:46:39 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on December 07, 2022, 01:59:16 pmit's a start:November 25, 2022Europe's biggest battery storage system goes online four months earlyhttps://www.techspot.com/news/96773-europe-biggest-battery-storage-system-goes-online-four.htmlOperators have flipped the switch on Europe's largest battery energy storage system, bringing online a system capable of storing enough electricity to power 300,000 homes for up to two hours.The facility, located in Cottingham, East Yorkshire, UK.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 11:09:38 am
content: Quote from: Mark on December 09, 2022, 10:46:39 amUnfortunately that cannot be remotely sufficient in the current situation.Firstly, it presumes that the battery can be recharged after the 2 hours. If there is a gas shortage then the cuts will be continuous (in a predefined rota) until there is sufficient excess power.Secondly, the power cuts rotastarts at 3 hourcuts per day and, as shortages get worse, progresses to 6, 9, 12, 18, 21 and 24 hour cuts.FFI seehttps://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity-supply-emergency-codeAs far as I can see, the two practical ways of storing grid scale energy for a few days are hydroelectric (pumped or conventional) and gas. Unfortunately the UK geography is against hydro, and the UK gas storage facilities were allowed to decay by Centrica because they were uneconomic. Shortsighted and not prevented by the government (presumably based on the dogma that industry and the market knows best).The person/company that develops practical long-term grid-scale storage of electricity will become as rich as Croesus.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 11:25:53 am
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on December 05, 2022, 07:10:13 pmI assume there's something wrong with that display. It claims to use ELEXON data, but ELEXON's website (and API)https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=actgenration/actualaggregateddoesn't provide any since a few days.No idea what data is displayed then, actually. Any discussion based on the Grid Watch display should probably be taken with a grain of salt unless the author of that site has found another secret source of data.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 01:07:47 pm
content: How about give discounts to customers who get devices installed to limit heating to 60-65F during peak times?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 01:19:42 pm
content: Quoteor worried spending money to bring them up to standard would cause the dividend on there shares to drop

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 01:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: mfro on December 09, 2022, 11:25:53 amhttps://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=eds/mainseems to be working

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 01:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 09, 2022, 01:19:42 pmI didn't specify whether for the individual or the company

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 06:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 09, 2022, 01:07:47 pmHow do you enforce that? It's trivial to bypass a thermostat to turn on the heating, and if you don't want to mess with that, just plug in a space heater.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 06:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 09, 2022, 06:27:58 pmSmart meters.Also, most people are not smart enough for 'trivial'.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 06:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 09, 2022, 06:41:37 pmWhat if someone likes leaving the windows open but keeps the thermostat at 18°C? Should they get a discount? What if most the house is 16°C but your office is 20°C, does that qualify? What about people that upgrade their insulation?Pay per use billing seems a lot easier and more fair. Use less energy, get a lower energy bill.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 06:52:00 pm
content: Missed the part about peak times but again, billing schemes could drive that with much less bureaucracy and more fairness.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 07:53:00 pm
content: The uk has a new method of cutting down on grid demand,pricing the poor out of the market.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 10:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 09, 2022, 07:53:00 pmIf they fall behind on their payments too far, then the energy companies don't cut them off (because they said they wouldn't when installing the smart meters).They do, however, transfer them onto a prepayment tariff, which is typically more expensive. That has more or less the same effect as cutting them off, but avoids the PR & political fallout.Whether that is fair or just is, of course, a separate argument.Personally I'm waiting until there is a large database cockup or malefactors enter the system - and transition everyone onto a prepayment tariff or directly turnoff the supply at using smart meters.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2022, 10:31:30 pm
content: Supply and demand. There's a shortfall of gas, prices have to rise. Why would they not? How else would you manage excess demand in a time of shortage? The alternative is rationing, i.e. power outages throughout the day, and that sounds even more unpleasant. Of course, if the shortfall got bigger due to low temperatures, it is an acknowledged risk, with energy prices being capped there is technically no incentive to further reduce consumption.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 12:22:39 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 09, 2022, 10:31:30 pmI'm not sure what point you are trying to make.All you have done is indicate the conditions that lead to rationing using one criteria or another.Poor people are pretty frugal with their use of fuel. I doubt that cutting off poor people's supply will do much to reduce the chance of general rationing via widespread power outages.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 12:42:36 am
content: Supply and demand. There's a shortfall of gas, shareholders dividend have to rise.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 08:43:58 am
content: Was more replying to @hippy, re prices going up pricing the poor out of the market. Not saying it is not unfair, but your two options are high prices, or rationing. And yes, shareholder dividends for the energy extractors are higher than they ever have been, so I fully support taxing them hell out of these companies. But, it still doesn't resolve the issue with a shortfall of gas, because you need to manage that somehow.People have to be forced to ration, by increasing the price ("demand destruction") or you have to ration them forcefully. A prepayment meter is one way, but those can take a while to get approval for, and can require physical access unless the meter is already compatible. They also don't work for people who can keep up with their bill, but are using a lot of energy regardless (because the government is picking up the tab and in theory, governments have unlimited money.) So, that's why wemightsee rolling blackouts this winter if we're unlucky, because we're literally consuming too much gas and the price signals to stop that have gone. (This is an unlikely worst-case scenario. So far the data shows we'll not see this, because we've consumed less gas this year than a typical winter, and the winter has been warmer than historical averages.)

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 09:53:44 am
content: Quote from: Kasper on December 09, 2022, 06:49:39 pmUnit cost should go up, the more you use, and not down, as it currently does.Quote from: tggzzz on December 09, 2022, 10:14:21 pmWhat happens in this situation is that the customer is described as having "self-disconnected" when they can't afford to feed the meter. I expect there will be quite a few people in this position during this current cold snap, and if we don't have a mild winter, it could become a serious problem (beyond the fact of it already being a serious problem for the people directly affected).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 10:24:04 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 10, 2022, 08:43:58 amIt would be helpful if you learned two basic things:indicating who and what you are replying to by using the "quote" button rather than the "reply" buttonunderstanding the concept of "price elasticity of demand". That will clue you in to why high pricesarea form of rationing. High prices and rationing arenot mutually orthogonal

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 10:34:35 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 10, 2022, 08:43:58 amAs with any use of the concept of averaging, the averging period is absolutely key. For example, by choosing different averaging periods, an individual's average (mean) heartrate can be stated to be anywhere between 220bpm to <1µbpm. Yes "µ".In this case the averaging period of "winter" or "season" is invalid and misleading. The only correct period is relative to the total capacity of stored gas and the usage rate. One report indicates for the UK's largest (hastily partially recommissioned) gas storage facility, Rough: "If the facility were able to maintain its previous outflow rates, calculations by Watt-Logic suggest it would be able to provideup to 12 per cent of UK gas needs for about 19 daysduring this winter."https://inews.co.uk/news/gas-rough-uk-storage-facility-winter-energy-crisis-russia-1900316

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 03:21:44 pm
content: The main reason electricity price is high in the UK at present is that it is tied to the price of gas, even renewables are tied so that wind and solar are getting both subsidies and increased price. And the reason that electricity price is still high, forward buying on gas by the generating companies who bought forward as soon as Russia invaded Ukraine at panic inflated prices and now that the wholesale price has dropped due to greatly increased LNG imports they are still contracted at the higher price, what happens as the contracts expire is anyone's guess. One thing that all this has shown is that power should never have been privatised, all privatisation has done is put too many snouts in the trough forcing up prices and ensured that not enough is spent on the infrastructure so that the whole system is creaking at he seams. What is going to happen to the grid when haulage companies are forced to use electric trucks, ware houses lined with row upon row of one megawatt chargers, the grid at present will not take that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 04:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 10, 2022, 10:24:04 amUse of@username(or an abbreviation where it is not ambiguous) is an accepted internet practice to refer to multiple posts when there is no particular comment in mind. It predates Twitter, but it was probably mass popularised by that platform.Of course I understand demand elasticity. That's like econ 101. But that's not really the same as rationing, because it's not enforced on you if you can afford to pay, it justencouragesdemand destruction by consumers. Rationing would be telling people you have 10kWh of gas to use today, once you go over that, you're going to shiver. That is the alternative if we want to keep prices low. That's also what I wanted the UK EPG to be, some average amount of kWh per year/quarter/month to be covered at the guaranteed price and anything above that at market rates, but it isn't how it worked out.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 05:17:09 pm
content: QuoteBrilliant idea as long as us wthout gas get to flog our share off

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 05:24:04 pm
content: The UK did not end World War II rationing until 1954.Food rationing was not so severe in US (not under attack) and it ended in 1945, except for sugar that was rationed until 1947.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 06:58:27 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 10, 2022, 04:47:19 pmHaving been on the net since '86, I am fully aware of various conventions. Quoting was commonplace even then, in emails and on usenet. It is regarded as being courteous toreaders.The first time I noticed your seeming inability to use the quote button was your slightly earlier posthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/uk-power-grid-situation!!/msg4572133/#msg4572133Where it certainly wasn't obvious.Your comments indicated you have no understanding of price elasticity.Your latest comments indicate you have no concept of "rationing by price".

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 06:59:23 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 09, 2022, 07:53:00 pmOh yes, but it's not restricted to the UK. It's the same shit happening in most of Europe.It's also driving a lot of smaller companies out of business.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 07:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 07, 2022, 01:48:17 amIt depends on the person's lifestyle. For me, storage heaters would cost more money to run. I prefer to have the heating off at night and most of the day, as I'm either at work, or out seeing family. I turn the heating on in the late-afternoon/early evening (I normally work shorter hours in winter, so I can avoid cycling in the dark) and it stays on until I go to bed. I also have the thermostat set to 15oC both to save energy and so I don't break into a sweat and have to remove layers of clothing, when doing housework.Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 10, 2022, 06:59:23 pmIn the UK there are triad charges during peak times, for large commercial users. This incentivises businesses to cut their power consumption during peak hours, between 16:30 and 18:30, from November to February. They're not applicable to small businesses, as far as I'm aware.https://smarterbusiness.co.uk/blogs/faq-what-are-triad-charges/

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 10:07:48 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 10, 2022, 07:10:40 pmThat convenient power you pull in the early evening is right on the peak wholesale cost, if you were exposed to that pricing then a storage unit would make sense running on midday power. Consumers are disconnected from the marginal costs so something needs to change, or those using most of their power on peak (as you do) will just continue being subsidised by others (suits you sir).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 11:12:13 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 10, 2022, 10:07:48 pmThat's a good point. Anyway, it doesn't affect me, since I use gas for heating.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 12:44:31 pm
content: I see we're into the orange again today at 45.5 GW demand, there's only 1.2 GW of wind, and Drax are warming up two coal units for this evening.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 12:55:53 pm
content: I see the French, Dutch and Norway ICTs are maxed out too. We also seem to be usng pumped storage early in the day, that's normally reserved for sudden peak loads (kettle breaks).

author: xmris
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 03:23:15 pm
content: I am watching another similar sitehttps://grid.iamkate.com/and hell, wholesale price was £1650/MWh a couple of hours ago...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 10:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: xmris on December 12, 2022, 03:23:15 pmAustralia used to hit the market "cap" of $15,000 per MWh a few times a year:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/residents-asked-to-switch-off-appliances-between-1630-1830-today-due-to-heat/msg1133303/#msg1133303Not as sustained but the ongoing gaming by the generators (to avoid selling power at the marginal cost + fixed % markup) resulted in the wholesale market being capped down to a 300 $/MWh. But thats only achievable here because so much of the grid is vertically integrated power plants physically on top of coal mines, yet they want to "sell" the coal at international market prices when it suits them. UK being reliant on importing energy is going to hurt.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 12:25:02 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 12, 2022, 12:55:53 pmAlmost half (26 out of 56) of our nuclear plants were halted a few weeks ago. A few have been restarted since then, but there's still a significant fraction that is halted. You bet we are maxed out.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 12:37:28 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 13, 2022, 12:25:02 amOuch. What was/is the common cause? Fractures?Looking at the yearly UK-Franch interconnectors graph on gridwatch, I would have guessed more than a few weeks. More like starting in April/May/June.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 01:58:03 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 12:37:28 amIt's a combination of multiple factors, which, to be fair, would require a pretty long and detailed explanation. Otherwise the short version may look too much like a conspiracy theory.One of the factors was that they were under maintenance, but how come that many plants could end up under maintenance at the same time, that's complicated (and sounds unbelievable.)I have not heard of any particular incident. I think it's relatively standard maintenance, now sure some of our plants are getting a bit old, so maintenance is required and sometimes longish.The management of our energy company EDF has also been largely questionable for over a decade.But all in all, we have been sabotaging our energy production capabilities in most of Europe. There's absolutely nothing unexpected here.Apparently all is well as we're going to build "green" hydrogen pipelines. Yes, really.https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/h2med-hydrogen-pipeline-france-cost-25-bln-euros-spanish-pm-sanchez-says-2022-12-09/

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 08:11:12 am
content: Read yesterday in the Guardian I think it was that wind power was down to under 3.6% here in the UK, of course being the Guardian it was all down to global warming that there was no wind. Thing is here in the UK we have always had foggy days that go on for a few days or even a week and when there is fog there is no wind, guess these city idiots just don't realise this and think the wind is a steady state thing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 09:18:38 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 13, 2022, 01:58:03 amAll reasonable. ISTR our nukes have similar (non)operating characteristics.Most of the year our nukes have been generating 4-4.5GW, but in the past few days it has been up to just under 6GW.QuoteHere too for various reasons, some commercial and some political doctrineQuoteAt a glance, hydrogen pipelines don't seem completely unreasonable.OTOH, we are apparently building a housing estate that can be powered by hydrogen and natural gas. It will be a testbed. I wonder if success will be declared before the usual domestic and road-level maintenance has started being necessary.https://hydrogen-central.com/hydrogen-homes-uk-neighbourhood-green-energy-revolution/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 09:26:04 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on December 13, 2022, 08:11:12 amThe "global warming thing" is that extreme weather will become more frequent.The "wind is always blowing somewhere" is a longstanding mantra od the idiot green fringe that also measures energy in GW. It is easily disprovable, courtesy of gridwatch. I took a year's wind production and plotted the CDF. As a rule of thumb in the UK, if the peak wind output is X GW, then the wind output will be below X% for X% of the time. Example: if the peak output is 10GW, then it will be 0.1GW or less for 1% of the year, i.e. 3 days.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 09:29:11 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 09:26:04 amOne idea is to put a load of off shore wind turbines in the North Atlantic, from Southern Spain, all the way up to Norway and Iceland. The wind will always blow over some part of the ocean, depending on the weather pattern. I don't see how it's any more feasible than covering the Sahara in solar panels, which has already been shown to be impractical. The problem is distribution.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 09:38:19 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 13, 2022, 09:29:11 amDistribution is an issue; I haven't looked to see thefundamentalsignificance of the issue.As for increasing the geographic area when considering the reliability/dispatchability of wind, yes it will help. But...the UK is better than most places for wind, so adding areas won't be as beneficial as "expected"larger areas run into the same long-distance distribution problemsshow me the CDF. Until then it is merely allhotcold air.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 10:32:02 am
content: [quote author=tggzzzThe "global warming thing" is that extreme weather will become more frequent.The "wind is always blowing somewhere" is a longstanding mantra od the idiot green fringe that also measures energy in GW. It is easily disprovable, courtesy of gridwatch. I took a year's wind production and plotted the CDF. As a rule of thumb in the UK, if the peak wind output is X GW, then the wind output will be below X% for X% of the time. Example: if the peak output is 10GW, then it will be 0.1GW or less for 1% of the year, i.e. 3 days.The number of foggy days is fewer than it was in the 60's and 70's although over the past few years it is increasing again proving if anything that the weather is variable, if the weather is really going to get more extreme that means winds will be higher and wind turbines shut down in high wind. If we really want net zero carbon and have enough energy for modern life the money being put into wind and solar especialy ther subsidies should be diverted to fusion.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 10:39:37 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on December 13, 2022, 10:32:02 amThe clean air act and less particulate pollution is why fog is less common. Now when we get high pressure in winter, it's more likely to give clear, sunny weather, rather than fog. It might also be why the the average winter temperature has increased slightly more, than summer. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest the prevalence of fog is increasing again. There's been quite a few foggy days this winter and the last, but that's not enough to suggest a trend.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 11:04:47 am
content: Relying on fusion to solve the zero carbon problem is just as foolish as relying on carbon capture to make fossil fuels OK to use. Fusion has not yet returned a positive result, the longest true fusion reaction was about 30 seconds and still did not return more energy than it required. YES, it might be possible in the future and we absolutely should throw more money at it, but in the meantime wind turbines are zero carbon, efficient, and cheap to build, so we should continue to build them.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 11:30:49 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 09:26:04 amI don't know if anyone is proposing wind ex storage as a viable grid supply - if they are then you are quite right to shout at them.The reality is that a purely wind powered grid would require some form of storage. Batteries are very unlikely to be viable, unless there is a massive advance in the technology (like 2-3 orders of magnitude). So we have to look at chemical storage, as we know that already works, e.g. most gas storage is done underground in large natural salt caverns, or by pumping gas back into expired gas fields. There are already some demonstration plants in operation that are producing hydrogen from excess renewable energy.I would like to see what your math looks like it you take the current ~25GW of wind capacity, increase it to ~100GW (which is likely to be where we are in about 15 years), but add storage of about 50TWh (~10 days) into the grid. There are a few papers on this concept, it is known as 'renewable superpower' (a bit of a marketing term but the idea is to overbuild renewables to overcome their intermittency). So your 0.1GW now becomes 0.4GW, still not enough to run the country right, but you can use hydrogen or natural gas instead, and it's got a very small carbon footprint (hydrogen zero, natural gas only due to fugitive emissions). The best thing about this concept is, if you do it with synfuel natural gas, you don't even need to renew the power plants. If you do it with hydrogen, you'll need to replace parts of natural gas plants, or build new fuel cell plants, to convert it into electricity, but the overall efficiency is probably a little higher. You can then also supply the gas into homes to run heating (with homes steadily moving over to heat pumps).The current storage capacity in the UK is ca. 5 bcm of natural gas, which is about 50 TWh, and 70% of this is in one facility (Rough natural gas field.) At a consumption of 45GW, assuming 40% CCGT efficiency (real drawdown ~100GW), that capacity alone is enough for 500 hours of electricity production. You'd need to add heating and industrial demand of gas to that too, so we'd likely need to roughly double the current storage capacity to make this viable. Fuel cell plants and more wind make it ever more viable.The beauty of this route is that it allows you to slowly transition to renewables without great risk.Edit - corrected typo

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 12:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 13, 2022, 11:30:49 amI don't know what "wind ex storage" is.Allintermittent (i.e. non-dispatchable) sources imply storage isrequired.QuoteI'm not going to poorly duplicate what is freely available elsewhere.Best source, lauded byeverybodyfrom "big energy" to "hardcore greens" and politicians ishttps://withouthotair.com/Available as a pdf, if you prefer.This remarkable book sets out, with enormous clarity and objectivity, the various alternative low-carbon pathways that are open to us. Sir David King FRSChief Scientific Adviserto the UK Government, 2000-08For anyone with influence on energy policy, whether in government, business or a campaign group, this book should be compulsory reading. Tony Juniper Former Executive Director,Friends of the EarthAt last a book that comprehensively reveals the true facts about sustainable energy in a form that is both highly readable and entertaining. Robert SansomEDF Energy... a really valuable contribution ... The author uses a potent mixture of arithmetic and common sense to dispel some myths and slay some sacred cows. Lord Oxburgh KBE FRS Former Chairman,Royal Dutch ShellEngagingly written, packed with useful information, and refreshingly factual. Peter AinsworthMP Shadow Secretary of Statefor Environment, Food, and Rural AffairsEveryone who cares about the survival of humanity should read this book. ... I've been reading books about energy and climate change for the last 20 years, and this is the best yet. Stephen Tindale Co-founder, Climate Answers and former Executive Director ofGreenpeaceUK.It is a fabulous, witty, no-nonsense, valuable piece of work, and I am busy sending it to everyone I know. Matthew SullivanCarbon Advice Group PlcHe outlines the basic physics, chemistry and biology of energy generation and energy consumption. He presents half a dozen plausible alternatives, without preferring any of them.Key concept:numbers not adjectives, andmake the arithmetic add up.QuoteThat's misleading #1: Rough is (?can?) only operating at 20% of capacity, thus reducing the 50TWh to 22TWh. Quite a difference.That's misleading #2: wind on its own is not a solution. For every 1W of installed wind power, you also need an extra 1W of dispatchable power - even though you won't need itmostof the time.Storage is the key, and is now more of an issue than generation. Any entity that comes up with a practical way of grid scale energy storage will become as rich as Croesus. Currently the only practical solution is pumped storage hydropower, and the capacity for that is very limited in the UK.Nobody should present half-baked proposals unless they explain how they fit in the physical world outlined by MacKay.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 01:19:33 pm
content: Wind ex storage would be a grid powered by wind power with negligible amounts of storage, assuming that it will always be windy. What's hard to understand about that? Anyway, no one sensible is proposing that as a solution. Every fully renewable proposal that has some thought behind it includes the need for storage.I have read nearly all of MacKay's book; I wouldn't be proposing what I suggest if it wasn't somewhat feasible.But: MacKay died in 2016, and the book was last updated in ~2014. In that time, available technology has changed, and wind power has been constructed at an immense scale.For instance, wind systems are now well integrated into the grid. NG/ESO understand when wind won't be available and when to have additional supply on hand. Constructing wind power in the sea is far more feasible and we can put 20MW offshore turbines up now. A wind farm can be commissioned in a matter of months, far quicker than any nuclear or gas power plant, but it can generate comparable power to one in good conditions. In his book, MacKay provided limited analysis of off-shore wind, which a 100GW-sized wind grid would consist mostly of (he also did not provide any analysis of new technologies, such as floating off-shore, or newer turbines that can sink into 100m deep trenches). Onshore wind is worth constructing because it is *so cheap* to build, and cheaper than offshore to maintain, but it carries a political price and therefore we're unlikely to see much new developments here. It's less effective and less consistent than offshore, but storage (and combining it with offshore) makes that kind of thing less important.(That forecast is a little inaccurate - the UK already has 25GW of wind capacity and it's ~2023.)You would not need significantly more dispatchable power. You would simply maintain and replace as necessary the existing natural gas power generation equipment, which is normally enough with nuclear to support the grid under most conditions without wind. That we are burning a few percent of coal now shows we don't quite have enough, but we are not that far behind, and constructing at a normal pace is sufficient to keep up with additional demands like EVs, heat pumps etc., and there will also be a few new nuclear reactors coming online in the 2030's. Note that a major benefit to having the renewable super-power would be that electricity in certain conditions would have a very low price; consumers would be heavily incentivised to buy it at certain times to e.g. charge their car or home batteries, or shift behaviour of large industries, shift patterns for aluminium smelters already avoid operation in the 4-7pm peak, but this would change to be based on forecast wind and grid availability.Rough may be only used at 20% currently, but it will be fully reopening soon; it's a crying shame this government has inadequately funded storage. But hopefully Russia's actions show that is increasingly necessary to maintain energy independence which wind power and storage enables. Anyway, I said we'd need more storage, this is not the hard part. There are lots of depleted gas fields, and there will be more come the end of North Sea gas and oil. I'm sure we can figure that bit out. The difficult bit is the syngas stuff, that is the new infrastructure that needs to be built en-masse. Such plants would likely be located near to the terminus of existing wind power supply lines to reduce losses and costs. Also, we need considerable upgrades to the 400kV supergrid, as at present the Scottish wind power supply is often limited by the two main 400kV lines feeding the rest of the UK.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 02:12:27 pm
content: I live in Norfolk not far from the coast and very often when I go up to the coast even when there is a favourable wind most if not all the visible offshore wind turbines are at a standstill when the land based ones are turning, not sure why this is.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 13, 2022, 01:19:33 pmIt an obscure phrase that you probably invented on the spur of the moment, and which failed to communicate what you meant.QuoteThe fundamentals haven't changed one iota; that's what makes the book so valuable.QuoteTrue, but irrelevant to the key point about storage.QuoteNonsense, unless you are using "commissioned" in a non-standard way that you haven't bothered to specify (cf "wind ex storage").Cherry picking (e.g. "in good conditions") is a bad debating technique, suitable only for politicians and salesmen.It is true that getting a conventional nuke operating is slower than a wind farm. The SMR approach is yet to be tested.QuoteThose are variations on a theme, and nothing fundamental.100GW with storage is larger than we would require. Without storage we would want something around, say, 1000GW to avoid outages,QuoteNo, the UK doesn't. It has 25GW peak capacity, which is very different. In the last yearOn 2nd August it had own to 0GW (zero) output.1.7% of the time it had <1% of the peak output (i.e. <250MW).Please do your research before making statements such as those below.Quote"Normally enough" is what happens in third world countries and back in the 70s. I've experienced both those, and it sucks.QuoteWhat's your source for "will be fully reopened" and definition of "soon"?Arguably it isn't up to the government to fund storage: that is the company's responsibility. Whether the government allows the companies to escape their responsibility is a different question.Quote"I'm sure we can figure that out" is not sufficient.Syngas has no advantages (and many disadvantages) over natural gas, and is an irrelevant distraction.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 02:27:35 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on December 13, 2022, 02:12:27 pmSpeculation without knowledge: breakdowns/maintenance, whichwill be more frequent due to the harsh environment.There's a reason why onshore is preferred.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 02:33:07 pm
content: QuoteQuoteyou want the tax payer to pay for the maintenance privately owned infrastructure twice ,were already paying for that privilege as part of the daily standing charge. heres a better idea ,put there own hands in there own pockets and pay for it out of there profits.If you want the tax payer to pay for it then put it back into state ownership

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 02:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:27:35 pmWhere is the speculation here, I said I live near the Norfolk coast and very often they are at a standstill, that is what I have seen, I did not give a reason, I think this is a statement of fact as I have seen it. I have just been on the MET office web site and they say that fog is one of the most frequent weather conditions in the Uk especialy around the east coast where many if not most of the offshore wind farms are.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 04:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on December 13, 2022, 02:34:55 pmMy speculations, not yours.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 04:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 04:03:07 pmAh sorry about that my mis understanding. Although I dont see 80 odd all breaking down at once, might be the wind is wrong though as these wind turbines only work in a relatively narrow wind speed range. Or could be down to demand, I read that both wind and solar can earn more idle than working due to the way subsidies are run, but if as so many claim wind and solar are cheaper than other forms of power generation why do they need subsidies the power companies would be running to build them as it would be more profitable.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 04:34:33 pm
content: QuoteTo aid the transfer of public funds to private pockets without the public realising how were being ripped off

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 05:10:41 pm
content: Here in Helsinki, the city-owned energy company Helen is making record profits, and has hiked prices to around 0.25-0.35 €/kwh, about double or triple what they themselves pay for electricity and generating it. (They produce energy, especially central heat and cooling, and sell electricity to about 400,000 customers all around Finland, some of it bought off the European electricity "market" (price-fixing cartel designed to shield coal and gas use). A BIG player here in Finland.)When questioned, they said "We're using this opportunity to save for future transition to green energy", and refused to cut their prices.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 06:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on December 13, 2022, 05:10:41 pmIf it's city owned, can you not vote for different people to run the city?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 07:34:17 pm
content: The main reason globally for this largely made-up "energy crisis" seems indeed this "transition" to green energy that is being now forced at all costs, while we are nowhere near ready for this transition.And are some companies taking advantage of it? Of course.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 08:08:08 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmHuh?https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ex_2The word 'ex' is frequently used as a shorthand for 'excluding' in British English, for instance:"The price is £1500 ex VAT"This is common British vernacular, and an internet forum where abbreviations are perfectly fine. In fact, if you type 'define:ex' into Google - or any word for which you do not know the meaning - I expect you will find the definition without issue.Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmWell, yes, and no -- like all publications it has only the foresight of the author at the time of publication. MacKay's work includes this diagram of the coastal areas of the UK:Fig 70, pg 61, ch 10 "Offshore Wind". Yellow indicates up to 25m deep, purple 25~50m deep, and unhighlighted is beyond that, to save you finding that description.If you compare that to the situation as of 2021 here:https://www.windenergynetwork.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/A1-Map_Issue-57-WEB.pdfThen you can see that many of the 50m areas are already filled in, and even some exploration and early planning is underway in areas beyond 50m deep. This is despite MacKay's words (pg 62):QuoteMacKay believes such a section, if filled densely, could achieve 240GW. The probably reality is somewhere around 1/3rd of it could be filled with turbines, achieving a peak production capacity of around 80GW. Combined with existing wind gets you to my 100GW figure. Combined with going to 75m - 100m turbines, which havealready been used(https://www.boslan.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/BOSLAN_monopile_foundations.pdf,pg 7), I have very little doubt we could go well beyond MacKay's estimates.This does not make MacKay a bad author. His work is fantastic - the heat pump section is particularly enlightening (and it's one reason I believe the mass-conversion of UK homes to heatpumps is effectively impossible). But, he wrote it with the knowledge available in 2014, and technology has moved on.Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmI think SMR will turn out to be a pipe dream, but let's see if it happens. It has my support, just like fusion, we need to approach the problem with all options. But we should spend the most effort on things that currently work and can be demonstrated to work. How many commercial SMR plants are there, compared to windfarms full of 20MW turbines?Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmNo. 1TW would be far too much with current projected demands. I don't think you're appreciating what storage does to resolve the intermittency issue.Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmDo you think that I don't appreciate wind sometimes goes to zero watts? The whole point of storage on such a scale is to make wind power viable (and solar in countries which have good insolation.)The whole point about overbuilding the amount of wind power is that you store the excess by converting it into hydrogen or hydrocarbon fuel, and then use that fuel when there's no wind. You combine that with demand management, so encouraging usage of energy when it's more readily available, and conservation when it isn't - e.g. EV chargers that run more on excess wind.If you don't understand how that can work I don't really know what to say.Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmJust a phrase. The modelling uses 100 or 300 year projections with large margins to ensure there would always be capacity available in storage.Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmError on my part. "Soon" it will be open to 50% capacity, not 100%. The current capacity including Rough is around 9 days usage in winter (I gave figures based on 10 days. It's less than the seasonal average.) But, Centrica have stated they want 100% by 2030, but want government funding to do so. I am also not a fan of the government funding private enterprise, but it's a thing this government has done repeatedly (for instance, see Hinckley C.)I would much prefer to see more infrastructure owned by the state, and grid-level storage would be part of that. It should be owned and run by the ESO or similar organisation (ESO is becoming publicly owned soon, currently it's owned by National Grid plc.)Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmWell, the good news is I'm not in charge of grid and power engineering for the UK, so you don't need to rely on me "figuring it out". There are people working in this area that know way more than both of us working this stuff out, and I am summarising research, papers and thought patterns here. This is not a formal treatise on how wind power and storage could work, just a discussion.The other good news is this is not happening any time soon. Whilst the UK is seeing the odd day with zero fossil usage for electricity, it's very unlikely we'll see sustained zero fossil fuel usage for decades to come. National Grid is planning for around 2035 for a sustained zero carbon grid (as they say "net zero", but a little hand-wavy), but it's quite likely to still require some fossil fuel usage until about 2040 or so.In terms of storage, the UK has comparatively little in use right now. About 9 days' gas (see above) whereas NL has around 130 days. If we use depleted gas fields, we should be able to achieve capacities similar to Europe. Note that Europe has traditionally had more storage as it has had less access to LNG, so the UK has had no need to develop much storage historically, and this was also used as justification to shut down Rough in 2017. Really, Rough is a small field in comparison to the capacity of the North Sea gas fields. For instance, one field in Scotland has been proposed to store CO2 of 360,000,000 tonnes, at a sixth of its capacity. (If that were CH4, it would be around 30 TWh if filled fully.) And that is one field in the North Sea. We certainly have no shortage of fields that could be developed for this purpose. And of course, we can use the existing European transmission network to buy and sell the synthetic gas across the continent or use LNG transports. There are also inland fields, or converted coal gas mines, available.Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 02:26:02 pmI use the wrong term here, my apologies. By syngas I was referring to synthetic or substitute natural gas, produced by something like a power-to-gas process.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_natural_gasFor instance, you could use the Sabatier reaction, but there are others.It's not yet clear whether natural gas or hydrogen will win here. Natural gas is easier to use, as existing gas boilers, power plants, and industrial processes can use it, and it is easier to store and transport than hydrogen. However, it has greater losses. Current research suggests about 70% conversion efficiency could be achieved with an optimised CH4 conversion system; hydrogen may be able to achieve 80%. The conversion loss is one reason that you need to overbuild the wind power and the storage capacity, because your storage will be less efficient than using the energy directly. The really cool thing about Sabatier is it uses CO2 from the atmosphere, so processes that trap CO2, like fertiliser production via CH4 (a huge amount going into the soil carbon cycle) it is negative for carbon emissions. And even if you burn it in conventional boilers etc., it is effectively carbon neutral if fugitive emissions are kept low enough.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 02:44:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 13, 2022, 06:41:32 pmLarge majority of those who live in Helsinki tend to lean quite far left, and believe Helen is doing the Right Thing. They believe the families that are having trouble paying their electricity bills are guilty of causing climate change, and therefore deserve to have a poor Christmas, and are just getting payback for their past climate crimes.And that rather than Helen cutting their profits a bit, the government should help those having difficulty paying their electricity bills anyway, because the transition to green energy is more important than anything else and must not be questioned or risked.It is politics mixed with the worst facets of urban stupidity.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 02:51:56 am
content: Someone said: "We just don't need the vast majority of the population".Nice times.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 03:50:20 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 12:31:41 pmOne of the most promising ideas being investigated here is to turn the electricity into hydrogen (or less easily, ammonia), and store it, and then turn it back to electricity when needed.For hydrogen it is a case of electrolysis and fuel cells, but storing the hydrogen in large quantities is difficult. Ammonia is easy to store as a liquid in tanks, but electrolysis/fuel cells that work with ammonia is a very emergent technology, far from practical deployment.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 08:49:55 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 14, 2022, 03:50:20 amI always like to point out there is less hydrogen (and hence hydrogen bonds) in a 1 litre of hydrogen than in 1 litre of petrol/diesel. Using hydrogen to power aircraft leads to the aircraft looking like a Super Guppy on steroidsOne example of an SMR being used to generate hydrogen is in the special case of using the hydrogen locally in an industrual process.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 08:56:33 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 13, 2022, 12:31:41 pmA big problem with wind power in the UK and Northern Europe is, the jet stream tends to be weaker (negative North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO)), when it's cold and most needed and stronger (positive NAO), when it's mild. Long term storage is the only solution, as it's not practical to cover the North Atlantic with wind turbines and even then, if we get an extremely negative NAO winter, like 1963 we're buggered, unless the energy can be stored for years.https://uip.primavera-h2020.eu/sites/default/files/PRIMAVERA_factsheet_climate_energy_NAO_final.pdfhttps://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/seasonal-to-decadal/gpc-outlooks/ens-mean/nao-descriptionhttps://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/learn-about/weather/atmosphere/north-atlantic-oscillation

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 09:25:43 am
content: Thanks for acknowledging where you made a mistake; too few people do that!I'll concentrate on the interesting points.Quote from: tom66 on December 13, 2022, 08:08:08 pmEssentially there are more operational SMRs than most people would like. They are,of course, self-propelled and surrounded by coolant.Repurposing such reactors is one reason to believe their technical characteristics are well understood. Whether the political and commercial aspects work is TBD.Fusion does have a potential problem: if it works and if is too cheap and if energy consumption continues to increase at the historic 2.9%/year, then in 450 years the oceans will boil (ref: the "Thermodynamic Limits" inhttps://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/)QuoteI was presuming the storage problemisn'tsolved. Solving it has to be a high priority, and (as I said) solving it will lead to the richness of CroesusQuoteOh, I completely understandthat. What I, and others, don't understand is how to do thateconomicallyandin the UK.Afterthat is solved on the scale of seasons and grids, wind/solar/tidal/etc it becomes practical to remove fossil fuel power stations.QuoteThere have been people working on that for manydecades. My father, when he was at the Central Electricity Research Labs, wrote a paper summarising the options. That was40 yearsago !Hence my wanting to "kick the tyres" before believing that any particular technology ispractical.QuoteThat sounds about right.One viewpoint is that the UK has been "banking" imported gas in various European storage facilities. Let's hope we can "withdraw our deposits" when there is a "run on the banks".QuoteMaybe. I don't know which locations are practical and economic.I'm skeptical about storing gas in coal mines; overall capacity and leakage into buildings are two obvious issues..QuoteI'm skeptical about non-commercial uses of hydrogen. Apart from its low energy density, the small molecule size exacerbates leakage, and over time it embrittles metals.I wonder if the planned test sites will be monitored long enough, or whether success will be declared before the problems have had time to become apparent.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 09:50:12 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 14, 2022, 03:50:20 amYup, ammonia is another useful technology worth investigating. The other advantage is you can use ammonia as fertiliser, which is something we need to stop using fossil fuel gas for, if only for food security. Ammonia can also be directly combusted, though I'm not sure if there are any particularly negative side effects from using this as a fuel or if the efficiency is particularly good compared to CH4. A downside is that ammonia isn't a great compound to have around in huge tanks, due to environmental hazards if it leaks.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 04:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 14, 2022, 08:49:55 amFor anyone not keeping up with acronyms, SMR is steam methane reforming, which is an industrial process to extract hydrogen from natural gas, producing carbon dioxide as a side product.In the hydrogen world, there are different "colours" of hydrogen. For instance "grey" hydrogen is produced from reforming where the CO2 is simply discharged to the atmosphere. Then there is "blue" hydrogen, where the reforming process is still used, but the produced CO2 is captured and not released to the atmosphere. Or there is "green" hydrogen, which does not use reforming at all, but instead uses electrolysis of water or some other process that does not create any CO2.The desire is to move towards green hydrogen, but there are issues of scale and efficiency still to be resolved.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 04:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 14, 2022, 04:30:01 pmIdeally a tech would come where we could also convert the CO2 in Graphite and Oxygen...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 04:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 14, 2022, 08:49:55 amAnother reason we need to figure out synfuels. There have been a few attempts at making jetfuel from algae but not all that successful or economical. Some other projects are looking at making it using fuel cells. It's an interesting concept. It's vanishingly unlikely we'll find a way to stop using jet fuel any time soon.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 09:03:20 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 14, 2022, 04:30:01 pmThat's the "wrong" SMR"My" SMR is "Small Modular Reactor", e.g.https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/11/rolls-royce-wins-210m-to-progress-small-modular-reactors/orhttps://www.constructionnews.co.uk/supply-chain/rolls-royce-nuclear-supply-chain-awaiting-signal-from-ministers-24-11-2022/Quote

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 09:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 14, 2022, 09:03:20 pmWell that's a problem with TLAs, especially since steam methane reformers are themselves commonly used to produce hydrogen in industrial processes

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 06:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 06, 2022, 12:28:01 amI have a set of 100 Christmas tree lights which use a total of 2.4W, so a million will only use 24kW. If the lights twinkle, they'll have a lower duty cycle and use even less power.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 07:23:13 pm
content: If, for example, you had a million 5 W incandescent lamps, the power supply would be a different story...

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 07:31:16 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 14, 2022, 09:09:33 pmWhat's Tennessee Library Association got to do with Shingled Magnetic Recording, anyway? Is this about the reliability of long-term storage when using spinny-disk HDDs for archival storage?