Why the thermal cameras is so damn expensive ?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2011, 04:36:16 pm
content: Every electrician starts to feel the need for one thermal camera,it does makes out life easier about detecting hot spots in large panels.Usually one loose connection can cause lots of troubles, one source with strong vibrations next to that control board,is what causes the mess, but there is no way to shut down the machinery.And the major question is, why they are so damn expensive ?

author: hacklordsniper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2011, 05:09:05 pm
content: Well i always wanted one, tried few eBay auctions trough years for dead ones in hope of repair but even them sold too expensive.Altrough the technology behind them is fairly expensive it does not justify the price. I'm guessing the big part of the price is the "exclusive" since they are simply not mass manufactured. There is little market for them and this holds the price.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2011, 05:10:22 pm
content: Love those things and was able to borrow one for a while. The ones for my particular application are way too expensive to own. I suspect the cost is due to two things. First, you can't use a regular glass lens. They usually use germanium because it passes the required wavelengths. Second is the sensor. There are a couple methods, but all are expensive and have poor resolution. Low production volume doesn't help any either. Finally, there is what the market will bear. The function is sufficiently desirable that people will pay the price. Why sell more units for less if the profit is the same?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2011, 05:44:38 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on July 25, 2011, 05:10:22 pmHow about because you gain fame and trust from the many ?And they will buy more generic gear, with your name on it, later on.This is what companies do wrong this days, they expect to make money by partnering with few major contractors,and they do not care for the private troubleshooter, or the ordinary technician who works in the humble maintains department of a factory.If the damn electrical board gets on fire, I can replace him with 1000$ top, parts + labor.Why I should spent 4.000$ for a camera ?There must be a better balance for the pricing on those cameras.No one can accept the current pricing, if they prefer to have their warehouses loaded with unsold merchandise,then I have nothing more to say.I will keep using the cheap IR gun type thermometer, 100$ worth no-name, but affordable.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2011, 07:39:38 pm
content: Expensive....nah, not when compared with how much they were 20 years ago.In the early 1990's the Agema units that I purchased were GBP75,000 per unit (Sound expensive ? well in 1992 it was VERY expensive). For that you received a bulky Shoulder-Cam, a 'mobile' controller two Germanium lenses (wide & narrow view) and a 5" colour monitor. The unit consumed Liquid Nitrogen for cooling the sensor but for an extra GBP25000 we bought the Stirling Cooler upgradeWe were at the leading edge of technology at the time and I have watched the technology develop since. The Military needed more compact and cheaper versions so the uncooled raster scanned Bolometer came into use but was initially pretty insensitive, monochrome and very low resolution indeed. The price.... to you Sir...only GBP15000 in 1997.Agema and FLIR developed more advanced stirling cooled and uncooled Bolometer until they were HandyCam sized and provided decent thermal sensitivity, differential resolution and spatial resolution. Those units were around in 2000 and cost around GBP35000 each. Modern thermal imagers produce amazing resolution compared to the GBP75000 Agema of the 1990's, almost up to CCTV resolutions. CCTV now makes use of the technology as well.IMHO, what you now get for GBP2000 to GBP5000 is very good value for money. It's a very specialised market and the sensor is far more complex than the CCD with a far greater specification for manufacturing and high rejection rate. The electronics that have been developed to interpret the imager data and maintain imager calibration is also the result of Millions of Pounds of research, much for the Military. This is one area where much money has been spent and the manufacturers are keen to recoup it quickly.In the world of Thermal Imaging there are very few players.... Agema merged with FLIR, Magnavox & Raytheon are mostly Military production and many other manufacturers either use FLIR imager chipsets or lesser known chipsets that may or may not perform as well. I saw one on sale recently that was technologically of the mid 1990's Agema era. Think FLIR or Raytheon when considering thermal imaging. I suspect the Flukes are using FLIR chipsets throughout.Take a look here to see the world of Thermal Imaging as it stands today :http://www.flir.com/GB/Oh and finally.... they are not easy to repair ! The Magnavox units tend to suffer from failed capacitors but the chipsets in these units tend to be custom LSI with no spares sources except other failed units. In a raster scan unit you also have a mechanical scanning mirror. Any failure in the optics or scanning mechanism and the unit is pretty much scrap. In the cooled thermal imager, the Stirling Pump is much like a car engine, it requires regular servicing. From memory they last around 2500 hours before requiring a complete rebuild at around GBP7000 a timeIf the Stirling Cooler requires a rebuild the unit will not complete it's cool down cycle. These units are leading edge technology (of their time) in terms of the requirement for custom LSI so are very repairer unfriendly. As with most kit of this type, OEM repair is prohibitively expensive.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2011, 08:08:14 pm
content: QuoteImagine designing a camera which must work when the body, sensor, and lenses are glowing red hot. Making a good thermal IR camera is *much* harder than making a visible light camera. Considering the technical difficulties and the small market, it is something of a miracle that you can get entry level thermal IR cameras for around the same price as an professional grade SLR camera.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2011, 09:43:15 pm
content: People we are in 2011, NASA stops visiting the stars, the Russians send before few days their Radio Astro on orbit.The militarywasone fat customer, for the companies who deal with technology.And this waste of money of the tax payers eventually will stop happening.Crisis is the name, and effects every army and nation.Yea I remember very well how much it coasted one mobile phone before 20 years, and the size of it.But the changes in market of the industrial tools are rapid, there is no 20 years adjusting period ahead.Uncle Sam its not that fat any more, and the products must circulate in to a wider range of people, new customers.We have lots of examples of business who was involved with metrology, and they have collapse and shut down.Its up to the existing ones, to change their business model or die.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2011, 10:46:54 pm
content: We can but hope as I would love to buy one at a low cost for use at home. There has certainly been a large increase in the production of units for hunting heat leakage around houses (environmental testing) and I would never have expected to see a Fluke thermal camera a few years ago. As you say, times change.The used market will also start to come into play if units are superceded or companies go bust.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 12:41:34 am
content: Flake have been pestering me for a long time to review their (I think $10K+?) thermal imager.Very cool product, but they won't let me take it apart due to the supposed propriety technology in it.But they were willing to let me drop it 3m onto a concrete!Dave.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 03:08:24 am
content: I think this is still a product used by companies that provide services based on renting out a tech with high priced hardware to perform a task that someone is willing to pay big bucks for. Periodic testing to uncover signs of end-of-life in systems is built into the budgets of a lot of companies and environmental/efficiency testing is very lucrative. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the businesses built on this kind of testing would be very upset if the gear came down in price to where every Joe Homeowner could buy one of his own.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 07:20:19 am
content: There is also the$10 thermal imagerif anyone wants to DIY

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 07:51:05 am
content: Hi,I seem to recall seeing a DIY imager on hackaday a while ago, using mechanically scanned infrared thermometers. Might be interesting to have a go at, though the resolution would be pretty poor. You might be able to improve it with a view aperture for the thermometer, although the sensitivity would suffer. I will have to see if I can look up the article.John

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 11:47:13 am
content: http://stores.ebay.com.au/Electronic-Component-Distributor?_trksid=p4340.l2563hashttp://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EXTECH-FLIR-I3-THERMAL-IMAGER-IMAGING-CAMERA-NEW-/370522280748?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5644d9532cEXTECH FLIR I3 THERMAL IMAGER IMAGING CAMERA for $1189https://www.youtube.com/embed/NE9-lm3hcwYThey have been cheap for a couple of years according tohttp://www.extech.com/instruments/press.asp?pressid=08042009Cheap isn't always best I just bought a SICK Inspector I40 vision camera which is basically a small cmos camera with led flash and a little brainbox for 3 grand

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 01:25:54 pm
content: Most of the 'lower' price auctions for thermal imagers on eg ebay are scams/stolen and should be avoided. For such items it is best to test the camera in person if you are a private buyer.It is interesting that Fluke would choose eevblog as a marketing channel. Price set aside, I had a conversation with a Fluke sales rep re a Fluke Ti55 (the high-end stuff) for research purposes, and she was genuinely surprised with an electronics related application for these cameras. We ended up getting a FLIR SC660. Have midrange cameras penetrated the electronics design market or they are still mainly used in industrial plants for preventive maintenance?

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 01:37:36 pm
content: As a side note, my most important application would be imaging very small items with decent resolution. None of the "cheap" cameras can do this as they don't have interchangeable lenses or good closeup capability. We're spoiled by what cheap point 'n shoot digital cameras can do these days.Another useful tool is the ultra high speed camera, but once again, to get the necessary frame rate, plus close up capability, I was looking at $60,000USD cameras. Needless to say, we didn't buy that either.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 01:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on July 26, 2011, 01:37:36 pmHow about 300 fps for 400$Sanyo Xacti HD1010 LOL

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 04:08:34 pm
content: Not a bad price, but alas we needed upwards of 1500 fps to really see what we wanted. Another problem with high frame rates is that you need a lot of light because the effective shutter speed is so short. At super high frame rates the illumination level on the surface of the sun is just about enough.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 04:41:58 pm
content: Ther are some cheap casio cameras that will do up to 1000fpshttp://www.casio.co.uk/Products/Digital-Cameras/Exilim-High-Speed/product/EX-FH100BKEDB/

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 04:48:10 pm
content: Another point regarding buying Thermal Imagers.... if you are outside the USA and buy one from a non official source within the US, such as ebay, expect the deal to fall through. The US has very strict controls on the export of Thermal Imagers, as they consider them usable for military applications by those unfriendly to NATO.I nearly bought a faulty Magnavox TI a few months ago at a great price, but after some investigation I discovered that it would have been stopped at the US Post office or courier. The sender could lie about the contents on the paperwork but I doubt you will find an American citizen willing to go against Federal Law especially where potential military violations are involved. To do it legally requires all manner of paperwork and red tape.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 04:59:14 pm
content: About such ridicules geo-strategic rules, I have the faith that if the Chinese manufacturers smell that there is market for such devices,they will float Europe in one night , with those thermal cameras.And if there is such legal limitation, the only one who looses money are the American companies.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 05:56:11 pm
content: I would have expected to see cheaper Chinese sourced TI's in the marketplace already. I don't know why this has not happened but presume the complex imager chip and optics are too difficult to manufacture in the Chinese bargain factories ? Or it could just be that it is too specialist an item to appeal to Chinese mass production. Amazingly not everyone wants or needs a thermal imagerI have used one to great effect when fault finding on PCB's. You can immediately see which IC's etc are working hard and any anomalous thermal activity.As a cheapskate alternative for home use, I purchased a great little handheld IR thermometer for around GBP20. I then purchased a really neat smaller version that can get up close to components. You can 'read' the thermal landscape of a PCB quite well with such a device. I attach a picture of the smaller unit below.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 09:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on July 26, 2011, 05:56:11 pmWell we have come to the point to speculate, and here is my own speculation, it looks that the thermal cameras had become products in the line of companies who work with metrology.And so I expect that the answer could come from a similar source.And this could be the UNI-T .I never suggested or implied that such items can be manufactured under banana trees .UNI-T does one electrical test probe called as UT15C volt stick, the identical item from Fluke / Beha / and some other brands,retails for 100 - 120 $ , UNI-T offers it for 17$ .With shipping I got it for 24EURThis is what I am expecting to happen with those cameras too.Not like tomorrow, but very soon.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 10:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 25, 2011, 09:43:15 pmThis is a double edged sword [innuendo intentional!] Without the military spending money like it grows on trees, manufacturers will have to provide products at more "reasonable" prices. If they want them to sell at all. On the other hand, without the military spending, a manufacturer needs to exert more effort, and have more vision, that they WILL be able to make a profit by developing a lower-cost version of the product. Driving down prices and implementing a large scale production line is hard work; it's a lot easier to produce expensive gear via "artisan" processes at art-like prices.The electronics industry is one of the very few places where this has worked. And even there it takes a serious visionary to say "if this was a lot cheaper we could get very rich selling lots of them", and such visions often fail anyway.If I had my choice of Expensive Devices to put on a serious cost-reduction diet, I don't think thermal imagers would be very high on the list. How about something healthcare-related instead, like a mass-produced CAT-scanner instead? (The diagnostic tool of choice for lots of things, heavily dependent on electronics and computers. But apparently thus-far immune to the price reductions we see in consumer electronics. But it's OK because it's paid for by insurance companies whose money grows on trees...) (Even look on a computer web-site and notice "medical grade monitors"? I suppose at one time these had the extra high resolution needed for diagnostic imaging. But consumer grade gear has caught up, and now they seem merely "slightly odd" and with a 10x price premium. The industry ought to be embarrassed.)

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2011, 10:59:05 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on July 26, 2011, 10:00:26 pmThe word that you seek called laziness.And yes this laziness happens mostly when you get good cash from Uncle Sam for long time, and you feel that there is no need for more R&D.But the up-come would be that when you will wake-up and need new customers ( because Uncle Sam its not there any more),You will realize that the competition had take you over, and there is not much to do about it.No one will pay art-like prices.About areas of interest like medical gear , I will totally agree with you , its another area that money grows on trees.The magic word called as "Public care".And many was taking advantage of it for long long time.Some people say that we have the politicians that we deserve, and that's a lie.They play their games behind our backs.And so we can not be blamed.But the next step would be to stop be spectators an do something about it.I like the way that you think.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2011, 01:28:12 am
content: I think you underestimate the difficulty of mass production, sort of like the people who complain about all the preservatives in their food without really having memory of or experience with food that doesn't have preservatives. In general, there seems to be a big gap in between "hand made" (or nearly so) and mega-factory-produced (we recently did tours of Harry&David, Tillamook Cheese, and another cheese company. And then there are all the "chic" candy-makers vs the mass-produced stuff. Interesting to see/compare.)One of the other reason that some things are so cheap is that the consumers exploit third-world labor to make them. And that'll have to stop too. For one thing, while we might consider it exploitation, the workers consider it improved quality of life, and as that goes up, so will their wages.Again, electronics is an exception. It's amazing that Sparkfun and Adafruit can exist, profitably. But they're leveraging a vast infrastructure of stuff designed to manufacture 50million disposable cellphones and toys per <timeperiod>, and that's really something that ought to be curbed as well...The military may spend money like water, but in some ways it is one of the few remaining customers willing to pay a premium price for custom-made high-quality merchandise built-to-last by domestic workers. Sometimes they get what they pay for. Sometimes it has benefits well beyond their immediate concerns. Sometimes not.It'd be nice if the world comes out of the current set of financial and environment crisis with a philosophy that perhaps living/consuming wastefully is not such a great idea. But given human nature, I suspect not.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2011, 08:13:38 am
content: Quote from: westfw on July 27, 2011, 01:28:12 amThis could be the picture about electronics made in the east before 10 or 15 years back.Today the robots do the job, everything is automated, and there is no need for workers,or for as many workers that you will probably think.This is why you can add wheels under any factory and move it world wide over night,even next to the parts supplier factory, so to reduce even more and the transportation cost about the parts that you do not make by your self.Primarily all those changes and planning about lowering the production cost,was offering one major gain ( profit ) exclusivity for the company and the stock holders.The new harder competition it will force them to offer part of the ( gain profit ) to the final consumer, by reducing the final price.This is what I am talking about.It could look as one wild guess, but this is what I predict that it will happen.The last fashion, is to move the factories from China to Africa or India.They will keep moving them at any place that energy or fuel cost less.This is how it works for them.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2011, 11:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 25, 2011, 04:36:16 pmKiriakos you can have my Fluke Ti25 for $4500 USD, shipping included to Greece. It's like new, 160x120 FPA, 6xAA NiMH battery, has built in visible light cam, SD card slot, voice annotations, -20 to 350C. I'm willing to trade it for test gear plus cash.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2011, 11:53:39 pm
content: Thanks for the offer, I had check your listing, but the price is extremely high.Its not your fault, its the astronomic Fluke art prices.By adding the local importation fees, It will make the bill even larger.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 12:16:45 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 01, 2011, 11:53:39 pmI can make it so you don't pay any import fees. I just looked at Farnell UK, it's $4200 GBP = 6845 USD, plus 15% VAT = 7 871.75 USD. I think my offer is a *very* good deal. If you really want it, I can come down to $4200 shipped. You can't buy it for that on eBay. Also note this is Ti25, not a much cheaper Ti20 or TiR. This imager is $9800 USD in Canada, to this day.

author: Trigger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 12:19:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 26, 2011, 12:41:34 amThat's a pretty piss poor answer from them. Its "propriety" my ass. It's not like anyone with the money can't just buy one and take it apart themselves. Dave, call them out on it!