How does the general public replace a failed  EBike charger? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 04:27:23 pm
content: HiSupposing someone buys an electric bike with a charger for its 48V Lithium battery. Then 18 months later, the charger fails. The person has to then buy another charger, but may have no idea what kind to get. The charger that shipped with the bike may well be obsolete. They may then buy a replacement charger with far too high charge current , and thereby either blow the battery up, or severely reduce its lifetime, due to overheating it during charging.How is the industry addressing this issue?..or isn’t it?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 04:35:38 pm
content: Just more short term obsolescence at the low end of the market. Most markets are removing the middle ground, it's crap with no support and one or if you're lucky two big brands with decent (but expensive) long term support.In this case, just buy Bosch.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 04:38:16 pm
content: One can still get new e.g. Panasonic chargers for their discontinued 26V batteries. You just don't want to pay the price, I know that because we lost one last year, belonging to a 9yr old electric bike. So for now I'm using my home made charger - universal type, you need to know how to set it up to not toast the battery.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 05:58:19 pm
content: Thanks, this is fascinating……the only responsible way to do this would be sell a battery as a “unit” with a charger (current source) incorporated into it…the user would then simply provide a 48V, XWatt power supply to this…the thing is, this wouldn’t be realistic because the charger would need a fan to cool its electronics, and fans fail and so this would mean these battery units ending up as scrap, creating an electronics waste nightmare. Also, the heatsinks for such an incorporated charger would be large and would add weight to the battery “unit”.………But if one relies on the public to select a charger, then its hopeless….because Joe Public doesn’t have a clue what charger to buy for what battery.The only other way would be to make the battery up out of D cells, and sell chargers for these. So the customer has to break up the battery pack and put the D cells into a charger. The D cells would need to have written on them “use with X Amps D cell charger”.Though if some ignorant customer still connected the wrong charger to them, then fire could well ensue....or at least, the cells could get fryed and not last very long.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 06:20:37 pm
content: I don't see the problem. I don't know about e-Bikes, but the vast majority of lithium powered devices have the charging circuitry contained in the device itself, some a have removable packs that are then put in product-specific cradles to charge. Examples are power tools and SLR cameras.There's no reason the charging controls should need to be fan cooled as they essentially consist of some control circuitry and a buck converter. Since the operating parameters of the buck converter are known ahead of time, 90% efficiency or better should be obtainable, so why the fan?

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 10:14:11 pm
content: QuoteThanks, EBikes use from 250W to 1500Watt, with most at about 500-600W. So you’re using a 48V, 10Ah battery. Charging that at 1C means a 500W charger. That would almost certainly be fan cooled to keep its size down. As you know , It wouldnt be mounted on the battery as it wouldn’t have a good enough IP rating for the outdoor use, due to its fan vent holes.The thing is, when such a charger wears out and stops working, the user has to replace it. They wont have a clue how to do this, since Joe Public knows nothing of electronics…..and as such, its likely we will see Lithium battery fires and explosions....because the public will shove too_high_current chargers into lithium batteries......Boom!!!The EBike makers arent even standardising on charger connectors....as such, Joe Public wont be able to even find a charger which connects to his/her battery pack...and since Joe Public doesnt know electronics, they wont know how to mod their charger to put the right connector on it.So people will be throwing away the entire charger and battery and BMS , and replacing the whole caboodle...even though it was only the charger that failed....so we will see tons of electronics waste.....perfectly good batteries being littered all over the shop.I just love near the end of this video....where he says he has a charger for which you can set the charge voltage and the charge current………so Joe Public will get hold of a 36V battery, and inadvertently set the charger to 48V…and then proceed to overcharge the heck out of their battery…fire and flames!Previous to today, the only people using chargers were RC plane enthusiasts….these are people with a high level of tech know how….EBike users are just guys and gals who want to get to work quickly….we are going to see Lithium battery fires big time.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 02:45:02 am
content: Quote from: treez on July 24, 2020, 10:14:11 pmSo are we making up requirements and specifications out of thin air? My bird scooter has a 250Wh battery that is charged at around 1.5A, or 75W, it's a total non-issue. Ebikes are not that far off.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 02:46:12 am
content: Quote from: uer166 on July 25, 2020, 02:45:02 amEdit: and who the hell has a commercial e-bike battery without a BMS and a overcharge disconnect?! Plugging a 48V charger into a 36V battery will result in a nothing sandwich.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 10:37:36 am
content: QuoteGranted, yes, no lithium battery should ever be sold without internal Charge balancer and Over/undercharge disconnect.The thing is…battery balancing circuits are meant for a particular charge current level. If you charge a battery with more current than the charge balancer is meant for, then you can still severely unbalance the cells…..and ruin your battery pack.This is another reason why we will see shedloads of waste batterys due to this ebike and escooter craze. Goodbye environment.Quote…The 48V charger would try and charge the 36V battery up to 48V…This will cause overcharge damage to the 36V battery.A 48V LiFePO4 (15 cell) would have a voltage between 37.5v and 54vA 36V LiFePO4(11 cell) would have a voltage between 27.5v and 39.6v...as we see, these overlap and there's room for confusion.____________--------------------_______________---------------------__________________---------------------Just look at the massive range of ebikes…….there is no standardisation of battery shape/size and fastenings.And Ebikes need a firmly afixed battery otherwise it will be stolen.When people’s ebikes have a worn out battery…people will often not be able to buy a similar battery to the one that’s just worn out…and no other battery will fit in its place…so we will see people throwing away their whole ebike into the garbage…just because the battery is worn out!!!We will have millions of tons of scrap and kiss the environment goodbye.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 12:54:41 am
content: It is an increasingly common problem with all kinds of consumer grade rechargeable equipment. The best you can generally hope for is to invest in a product ecosystem like rechargeable tools from one manufacturer which will attract third party support.Part of the research I do before buying something is service documentation and parts availability.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 03:10:29 am
content: USBC is the right standard for this, a BMS with an integrated USBC input charger would be a possible answer to the standardization. Battery broke? Just replace the charger/BMS since it would be an integral part of it. Power electronics aren't that expensive nowadays, and could be a reasonable compromise to keep the interfaces the same.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 10:07:44 pm
content: USBC does not solve anything unless the charger is built into each battery, and USBC will not be powerful enough for many applications.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2020, 10:56:53 pm
content: How about a global standard for ALL ebike batteries and ebike chargers? Maybe an autoconfig protocol so the charger knows what batteries it's meant to incinerate? Are there any EE's in the building?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2020, 06:35:22 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on July 27, 2020, 10:56:53 pmhttps://xkcd.com/927/