Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2018, 12:04:47 pm
content: We are probably all familiar with the Rossmann video on reballing, but I'll link it below just in case.I have yet to see or hear of anyone actually showing any research, studies, or other types of investigation on the subject. It really seems just like everything else- a strongly worded statement of one's own personal opinion, with nothing to back it up other than a firm conviction. There are plenty of alternative possibilities to what the problems may be, and what heating or reballing the die may actually be doing. Despite the similarities in his logic to those he is disagreeing with, people tend to rally behind Rossmann's opinion on this video. He has not properly disproved the general idea that reballing BGA chips "fixes" them, nor has he supported his own claims about the "little bumps" inside the chip being the actual root cause. His claim that heating the chip well below the point at which solder melts somehow "proves" his point is simply not true.I am a fan of Rossmann and the lion's share of what he has done on the topic of repair, freedom, and related subjects. His claims may very well be true, but he has not supported them.What are your thoughts on the topic? Does anyone know of any studies or research that may be more valid-- or any other convincing arguments in general? Any ideas on ways to have a better idea on what is going on, even if it is not quite to a proper scientific level?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2018, 12:15:35 pm
content: He is not nearly the first who said this simple truth. This reball repair BS is going on since around 2007. Starting from laptops with failing Nvidia GPU or chipset.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2018, 12:21:14 pm
content: He proven his claim easily, IIRC he said something like "heat up GPU way below solder melting point, and voila it works again". Which would not be the case if there was a soldering issue between PCB and chip.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2018, 12:22:27 pm
content: Thanks for the image. What is the source? Is any pdf possible?

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2018, 12:24:32 pm
content: On a flip chip BGA it's the balls that connect the die (i.e. the bit generating the heat) to the substrate which suffer from failure due to differential thermal expansion induced stress. The thermal expansion coefficient of the substrate and PCB are more closely matched so stress is lower, and the balls are larger.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2018, 12:36:32 pm
content: I googled with some of that image text and found thejournal source. anyone have an arxiv pdf or another source? :pUsing that I also found some more info, like the image below. I'm going to do some more reading down this rabbit hole.

author: LateLesley
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2018, 02:01:18 pm
content: I did a bit of googling into this at the time, and it appears he is right. It's an inherent flaw in flip chip design of a certain time, and what was breaking was not the solder balls under the chip, but the solder balls between the silicon and the package substrate. No amount of reballing would fix that.http://www.sonoscanchina.cn/us/images/18FCBumpPassivationFailIRPS97.pdf

author: stojke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 07:22:19 am
content: I dont think you need any more evidence than practical evidence.AMD chips repair in 99% cases if done correctly and the chip is still working and stay working for a lenghty period of time (we are yet to have one return after years of servicing) , where NVidia chips fail within a few days or weeks after the exact same procedure. The most trouble originates from users abusing their failing hardware for days or months untill it completely fails before trying to service it.Some times on nVidia chips due to bad cooling and constant usage at those higher temperatures a typical reballing fixes the problem as it was caused by bad bottom connections and not those within the chip.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 07:48:28 am
content: Quote from: stojke on June 22, 2018, 07:22:19 amYou mean success that it lasts long enough that service customers are left without a repair warranty? If something fails within a few months people likely will just choose another repair shop, they don't have a warranty anyway. Some AMD chips from early 2010s were not that much better than Nvidia from 2006-2008.QuoteIn rare lucky+low stress cases might last like 6-12 months instead of 2 weeks. Issue still within the chip. Actual soldering fail is quiet rare and even with unaffected by plague flip chip BGA you never know for sure if the issue wasn't in the chip.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 08:04:46 am
content: If a quick&easy reflow fixes it, and it does, who cares? How is it better to replace the chip with another new but also defective chip? I've done a zillion reflows to iMacs and PowerBooks and it just works(TM).https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/getting-started-with-bga-reflow-and-reballing/msg472940/#msg472940

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 08:16:29 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 22, 2018, 08:04:46 amGot to be nice to be someone who is ripping off his customers. If you know that you cannot buy a good replacement, you need to have guts to refuse a repair, not milking customer.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 08:18:52 am
content: Join just about any repairman's crash course,here in India,the first thing they are gonna teach you is reballing,but before that,they'll tell you that many chips will go bad some time afterwards, but it'll be late enough that the customer won't suspect that you didn't repair it fully and wont blame you.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 08:44:21 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 22, 2018, 08:16:29 amRight, I've ripped off my friends, and they're still very thankful. They just had to choose whether to pay many$ for a mlb swap or a a let's try this and cross fingers. And they chose wisely because an mlb swap would more than likely have failed again and this hasn't, as has happened to too many previous gen iBook G4 users. No doubt there's morons who may prefer to put it in the trash and get a new one... just because it might fail again.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 08:58:45 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 22, 2018, 08:44:21 amSomething does not add up. You certainly talk BS in one way or another.Zillion refrows, for friends? I could believe that if you do a reflow every 2 weeks for the same few laptops.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 08:59:03 am
content: Quote from: Raj on June 22, 2018, 08:18:52 amYou're not to blame if you explain it's a design error and you can only do what you can do but the error is going to remain there and may strike again. Twelve years ago an Apple mlb swap was very, very expensive, and didn't warrant a better outcome than a reflow, it paid to gamble and try the reflow first.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 09:13:35 am
content: Zillions in my book is a synonym for plenty or dozens :-)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/getting-started-with-bga-reflow-and-reballing/msg472940/#msg472940Quote

author: stojke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 09:20:01 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 22, 2018, 07:48:28 amEach and every customer is fully aware of what an reballing procedure and an chip replacement procedure is. I can warrant that my work was done correctly with the tools I have in an unlimited time period but I can not warrant for your crappy chip as it is not new nor has factory warranty any more. Warranty can only be given on new chips that have their own warranty. In personal experience no one has ever opted for chip replacement, it is too expensive. Keep in mind that in the region that I am from there are only a few % of those who have high end machines.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 09:23:50 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 22, 2018, 09:13:35 amZillion is certainly is more than plenty of dozens. But I still won't ever believe you have so much "friends" that they could bring in plenty of dozens of iMacs and PowerBooks. And at the same time you don't do this professionally for living, yet pay off for a right equipment. Not to say that old PowerBooks are completely irrelevant to the problem.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 09:25:06 am
content: I always had a sneaking suspicion that graphics card failures in iMacs that come good after heating the card might have been due to tin whiskers from lead free solder causing shorts that were then melted during the heat process as they are so fine. Just a theory, I have no proof though.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 09:25:35 am
content: Quote from: stojke on June 22, 2018, 09:20:01 amThen I know why you don't have returns. Because they sell them to another suckers before they die again.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 09:27:28 am
content: Quote from: Synthtech on June 22, 2018, 09:25:06 amTin whiskers, particularly on GPU. When there are tons of other components with finer pin pitch.

author: stojke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 09:32:16 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 22, 2018, 09:25:35 amDo they or do they not I do not know nor care. But I do know that those who purchased an repaired laptop from my self , as I sell repaired laptops as well , those who bought reballed laptops returned for system maintenance and purchase of additional devices later on. The shop is open and on the same address for years as it has always been, it is their own flaw not to return and get problems solved.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 10:01:29 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 22, 2018, 09:23:50 amDear, almost thirty years being an Apple employee, since long before the Macs even existed, I've known hundreds of Apple users with many of which became friends (mostly nerds). Retired in 2008. Just so you know iBook G4s had the same problem and aren't powerbooks. What's the purpose of you trying to break my balls at every opportunity? It's tiring...

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 10:04:01 am
content: Quote from: Synthtech on June 22, 2018, 09:25:06 amYes, same here, I would have liked to be able to see under the chip!

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 10:42:11 am
content: Also, dear wraper, BTW, how do you think Apple itself fixes these mlbs? They do exactly the same thing...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 11:06:05 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 22, 2018, 10:42:11 amBlast with a heat?. Unlike you and me, Apple has a source for new chips. Not to say they do it somewhere in a big factory, not small repair shops. You can get many but not all (non faulty) chips, they origin is questionable and therefore hit and miss.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 11:38:57 am
content: Exactly, replace the chip... with a new faulty chip.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2018, 12:02:27 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 22, 2018, 11:38:57 amSay unreliable nvidia chips from 2006-2008 got an update in 2009 and were not failing anymore. Dunno about later chips but they probably got an update as well. Even if they replace them with the same chips which areprone to failure (not faulty), not 100% of them will fail. If they will eventually fail, you can at least expect they will last comparably as long as original chip lasted. If you blast the chip with a heat, it's still the same old chip which is still faulty.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 02:42:44 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 22, 2018, 11:06:05 amhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&feature=youtu.be&t=11m36s

author: MacBook Mike
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 06:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 22, 2018, 07:48:28 amQuote from: wraper on June 22, 2018, 08:16:29 amAhhhhh!!! MORONS! Bloody morons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LET ME TELL YOU, IF YOU A SELLING HEAT BLASTING (re-balling) as a service you're a moronic BELL-ENDThe issue is due to thermal expansion coeficient delta between the GPU die and substrate causing stress on the die / substrate interconnects!HERE, learn something!....

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 06:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: MacBook Mike on October 26, 2018, 06:33:58 pmJeez, man. This thread had finally, peacefully, faded awaa; wraper as well as George had survived it without physically injuring each other (to my knowledge).And here you come, with a first post, months later, and feel the need to stir it all up again??Who are you? Why should I believe you anything?

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 09:12:36 am
content: And who says the chip to substrate balls can't be fixed by a reflow? If a three minutes at 300°C reflow makes it work again, what explanation do you have for that other than "yes it works"?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 10:32:08 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 27, 2018, 09:12:36 amThen try heating 2 pieces of solder stacked together without any flux present, then show us the result with photos.Edit: also please explain why heating to only 150oC restores functionality as well? Is it a proof that solder melts at such temperature and a proof that it was fixed?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 10:50:47 am
content: On my part I can say that I blasted with heat or even reballed several GPUs myself. There was some stuff from my relatives and an acquaintance who needed a quick fix to revive his laptop before he gets a replacement MXM GPU. Needless to say, all of that died again sooner or later.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 01:01:56 pm
content: Of course they'll die again, because the design flaw is still there. Just rinse and repeat...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 01:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 27, 2018, 01:01:56 pmMaybe you don't have anything better to do, but I don't feel like frying PCB once in a few weeks (if lucky, months) or even more often. Not to say faulty bump is never fixed, just barely makes a weak contact again.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 06:47:45 pm
content: But nVidianever fixed the problem, so if you replace the chip you aren't doing it any better because the "newer" chip you put in is as bad as the one you've just removed. There's lots of info about this @ the inquirer:https://www.theinquirer.net/search?query=nvidia+defective&per_page=48&sort=relevance1For example:https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1004378/why-nvidia-chips-defectiveQuote from: theinquirer

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 02:42:11 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 27, 2018, 06:47:45 pmAnd now you are talking bullshit as it is. The same chips with 2009+ date code were fixed and even had underfill of different color.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 06:34:27 am
content: @Macbook Mike: See what you have done now?

author: flolic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 08:27:23 am
content: I used to do chip reballs, but soon come to conclusion that's completely waste of time. Now I just replace chip with new one if it is available from reputable seller (but reputable is a tricky word when stuff comes from China).For devices that you can't get new chips, liker PS4 game consoles APU-s, I just do proper reflow. But for that service I don't give ANY warranty and it is completely at customer risk. Price for that service is fair and stuff usually last atleast 6+ months after repair. Customers are generally OK with that.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 08:59:32 am
content: Quote from: flolic on October 28, 2018, 08:27:23 amThere are occasional legit requirements for a recall. The HP Jetdirect 615 had been soldered with either a duff profile or duff solder and they had a pretty much 100% long term failure rate. They are completely cured with a reball, it's just unless you are doing for academic purposes it's not cost effective.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 09:44:28 am
content: At least for the faulty 7300 and 7600 GT GPUs in the 2006-2007 MacPros and iMacs, I'm sure nVidia never bothered to fix those because they had been already obsoleted by the 9400, 8600GT, QuadroFX, GT 120/130 etc. by the time the problem was discovered and widely known. Proof for that is also that Apple never issued a recall (repair extension program in Apple's parlance) for those two but instead issued a FW update to both slow down its clocks and speed up its fan, e.g.:https://support.apple.com/kb/DL285?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_USIOW a "fix" of the same sort of the infamous Apple iPhone battery slowdown patch, very much in line with nVidia's proposed "fix" at the time (2008-9):https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1051409/nvidia-k-filing-goes-microscopeQuote2009 is three years later, when nVidia finally began to grasp it:"Nvidia finally understands bumpgate"https://semiaccurate.com/2009/08/21/nvidia-finally-understands-bumpgate/AFAIK, that's all they did for these two older GPUs, as for other later models, I honestly am not sure, but if you dig deeper at the inquirer, I seem to recall there's an article there (or pehaps @ semiaccurate.com) saying that they not only never really found a proper solution, but, they also got rid of all their abundant stock of known faulty chips by selling them mixed with new (fixed according to them, not really according to theinquirer) ones... And most of them have had to have repair extension programs anyways,proof that chips manufactured after 2009 were still, also defective.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 12:37:23 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 28, 2018, 09:44:28 amIIRC 7 series nvidia were not affected (or at least they were not dying like cockroaches), also they were not used in macbook pro. Apple gone from ati in 2006 to nvidia 8 series in 2007. FYI you can find g84/g86-xxx chips from 2006-2008 even with 2012 date codes.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 12:44:12 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 28, 2018, 09:44:28 amAnd when they were supposed to fix them when they usually were failing after around 2+ years? When it became clear there is a big issue, they fixed them. Also it's not like you can implement such fix instantly.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 01:40:00 pm
content: Quote1) FYI MacPro !== MacBookPro2) iMac 24" 2006 and ~all MacPros at that time came with 7300 and 7600, and yes, they were dying like cockroaches.3) The chip in your post is NOT a 7300/7600 GT.4) It seems you believe the first Macs affected were the 2007 and on MacBook Pros with the 8600m GT, those were the first that had an extension program (read: the first time Apple publicly recognized the fault), but they were not the first to fail nor the only ones...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 06:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on October 28, 2018, 01:40:00 pmI guess I read improperly because was typing from airport. If 7 series were dying in desktop Macs there should be some very inferior cooling. Even crappy 8 series were relatively little affected on desktop PCs due to much lower temperatures. Sourcing 7 series GPUs was never a problem because they did not fail much, and there was no much demand. Sourcing 8 series was difficult, a lot of relabeled GPUs with altered part number (ink marking) or even sanded silicon and fake marking applied with laser. Demand was huge but supply was limited. So Chinese friends sold whatever they got (including old faulty GPUs) as whatever you would want to buy.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 06:11:46 am
content: laptop 7 was a plague, HP Pavilion dv9000 was one of the most famous victims, I am guessing mobile 7 wasnt as popular as 8 series so you didnt hear about it as much.desktop 7 didnt die en masse afaik, or at least were replaced withe newer gen cards(7 to 8 was a massive leap in performance) fast enough it wasnt noticed.desktop 8 was a disaster, its quite rare nowadays to find a high end working 8-9-2xx series card, my personal collection is full of dead ones (8800,9800,285), every card died in 2-5 years, all bad GPU. Anecdotally I also have 7600 GS which survived running 24/7 10 years with a voltmod and aggressive 50% OC (400/400 to 600/600 MHz), finally ended up frying ram supply controller. I dont even recall Collectors complaining about 7 series.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 06:50:33 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on October 29, 2018, 06:11:46 amDV6000/DV9000 which failed were either AMD CPU based with Nvidia NF-G6100-N-A2, NF-G6150-N-A2 chipset with integrated GPU (Geforce Go 6100/6150 GPU), NF-SPP-100-N-A2 (same as NF-G6100-N-A2 but with disabled GPU) or with 8 series GPU (both AMD and intel). A bit newer ones (AMD) had nvidia MCP67x-xx chipset which was just as bad (with iGPU enabled variants GPU was displayed as Geforce GO 7-something). Those chipsets were of the same generation as 8 series GPUs and even less reliable. I don't recall any intel based DV6000/DV9000 with 7 series dedicated GPU, only AMD, and those with AMD always had nvidia chipset to die first.EDIT:I actually sourced some NF-G6100-N-A2 with 2009 date code (with glue remains on corners, removed from scrap mobos) and replaced NF-SPP-100-N-A2 and even NF-G6150-N-A2 (with bios mod to support G6100) with them as I bought several dead DV6000 laptops, some were brought for repair by acquaintances. One of them I used myself and one was given to my father. Mine had dedicated Geforce GO 7400, father had one with dedicated GO 7200. They worked fine for several years afterwards.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2018, 06:57:55 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on October 29, 2018, 06:11:46 amMSI made a 7600Go MXM card for their laptops that's 100% compatible with the 2006 24" iMac, you just have to replace the spi eeprom that's 1/2 the size of Apple's, and write Apple's code into it. That's very easy to do because the ROM image and the flasher program come bundled in the iMac's graphics firmware update .dmg.