General Apollo DSKY Replica Discussion - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 12:24:31 pm
content: How come noone here is talking about this already? This is so sad. Been busy myself but I thought someone would have picked up on this by now.From Fran's GoFundMe update 4 months ago,QuoteI removed the ebay link because it doesn't deserve the recognition on this site. Its further disgusting that 17 (maybe more) suckers have bought this already for $1000. Hopefully unaware of this. If you're one of them, try to cancel your order. You can do it thru the bank if bought on credit. EDIT2: Seems to be resolved for now based on what Mr. Scram posted.Anyways please help Fran. Shes been working on this since 2014 and is trying to reproduce a much more faithful replica. This is well documented on her youtube channel.Fran's channel:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMLgHbpJ8qYqj3CkdbvC0WwFran's Apollo DSKY youtube update:Fran's DSKY GoFundMe:https://www.gofundme.com/apollo-dsky-display-projectFran's Patreon:http://www.patreon.com/frantoneEDIT: changed title to "seller" not "company" to clear up misunderstanding.EDIT2: changed title again to be fair.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 02:35:22 pm
content: I'm sorry to say this, but if you open-source your project without a license limiting commercial exploitation and without the means of enforcing the license you can't do much about this. Fran did the right thing by telling people about it and trying to give them a reason to support the project. I think she knows to leverage social media. Fighting the ebay seller would be probably just wasted time.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 02:49:44 pm
content: Hasn't this been discussed to death? As far as I'm aware, there isn't any direct evidence that the seller actually used Fran's materials. He has responded and showed some materials to prove he was working on the project before Fran came with hers. Unless he's digging a deeper hole to cover his tracks, it just seems a case of two people working off of the same original material. After all the effort Fran put in I can understand she's a bit defensive about it, but I don't think I've seen anything that's an actual issue. The eBay listing, the original accusation and the seller's response are linked below.https://twitter.com/contourcorsets/status/898542414469660672?lang=enhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/DSKY-with-Apollo-Guidance-Computer-runs-NASA-MIT-Code-/263190750503?

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 03:27:47 pm
content: The product description is one of the most thorough I've seen on eBay. Didn't see a response from Fran on Twitter to their explanation.

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 03:35:42 pm
content: @madires You know what, you are right.@Mr. Scram I had a second look and the seller did credit her in the ebay description so I guess I'll change the title of this thread. It hasn't really been discussed which is what caught me a bit off guard. Twitter I just avoid like a plague for obvious reasons. In this case it was helpful to see what both parties were thinking. Thanks for informing me.With the above said, I'm turning this into a general Apollo DSKY thread. What are your thoughts? Personally I'd like a close to faithful reproduction. The ebay seller "samammons" has the closest one to date. Going back, I believe what had happened was a rush to have something, anything out before the 50th anniversary. 4-5 years is a very long time. Still I have problems with what is currently available besides the ownership rights of the panel artwork mentioned before. For starters, there are no relays. It is an option to have them. The buttons I'm not sure as I don't own one or have even touched an original. I wonder if they are close to the real thing. The lighting was discussed in the links provided. These can be minor. One thing I'd like to bring up now is this. Does the final price make any sense? Am I getting my money's worth?

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 03:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: CNe7532294 on January 08, 2018, 03:35:42 pmAs long as the product clearly indicates that it is a "replica of an original product", and clearly lists exactly what is different from the original, one will be OK.Even though US$1000 is a little rich for me, I can appreciate the effort involved in producing the replica, and it is a fair price.I had previously read Fran's Youtube videos where she reverse engineered some DSKY boards. Fascinating stuff.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 03:59:05 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on January 08, 2018, 03:56:41 pmOne question is whether what amounts to pre-orders are actually allowed on ebay.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 04:23:47 pm
content: Hmmm....you may be right.Perhaps a Kickstarter project would have been a better option?

author: TimInCanada
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 02:13:35 am
content: Seems a little pricy for a Raspberry PI with 4.3 inch LCD panel. But it does come with "Stereo audio and Bluetooth Audio." That's something the$49 paper cutoutversion can't offer.Isn't Fran's plan to recreate the real EL display? That's a whole different ballgame than programming a PI to display simulated 7-segment numbers.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 02:50:30 am
content: Quote from: TimInCanada on January 10, 2018, 02:13:35 amJudging the price based on these components does not make sense. Throw Rpi and LCD together and see if it resembles the real thing. How are you supposed to recreate the real display?QuoteThis alone means a lot.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 03:00:02 am
content: Quote from: CNe7532294 on January 08, 2018, 03:35:42 pmFran is trying to do a faithful reproduction and hitting all sorts of walls due to technology not being available or being terribly expensive. Just the relays will mean you'd go bankrupt. You can either spend tens of thousands of dollars on a reproduction, or make concessions in the areas where it counts most or least, depending on how you look at it.It's completely custom hardware and seems to be made with a fair amount of care. Whether that means getting your money's worth is completely up to you. To some it will be throwing away money, to others it will be the closest they'll even get to the real thing.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 03:11:41 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 10, 2018, 02:50:30 amAll a matter of approach. If I'd been approaching that task, I'd seriously consider creating ONE set of parts (out of whatever materials are easiest), then use them as to make greensand molds for aluminum castings. That's much closer to real, and might even be cheaper.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 03:33:33 am
content: Rocket not included?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 03:43:16 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 10, 2018, 03:11:41 amAnd get a rough piece of junk without any finish which then needs a lot of CNC machining and making a surface finish in some way.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 03:45:03 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 10, 2018, 03:33:33 amI doubt it. But if you have your own Saturn V,https://haynes.com/en-gb/nasa-saturn-v-owners-workshop-manual

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 04:08:59 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 10, 2018, 03:45:03 amI was a bit disappointed to find it's not actually in the style of a workshop manual.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 06:23:49 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 10, 2018, 04:08:59 amLol, I have the users manual for the U.S.S. Enterprise though.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 02:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 10, 2018, 06:23:49 amNever did pick that one up, but I do have the tech reference manual for the 1701 - signed by The Engineer himself. (Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise)

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 09:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 08, 2018, 02:49:44 pm"My Apollo DSKY Display Project data has been appropriated by a for-profit company.... So Very Trumpian of them!"Oh dear, oh dear...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 12:06:02 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on January 10, 2018, 02:19:02 pmI have that one too. Not sure if it's signed. The other one I have is actually the officers manual, not the users manual, oops.

author: TimInCanada
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 01:25:39 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 10, 2018, 02:50:30 amWell, if you're Fran you research the DSKYs in such detail that the Smithsonian will let you come in and dismantle some of theirs. Then you research the Sylvania EL technology of the day and identify materials and processes originally used to make the displays. Then start tracking down said materials, make a set of 12 silkscreens to print your own displays and source the glass panels. That's as far as her updates go, but she seems to have a handle on what's involved.Pretty darned impressive industrial archeology.QuoteAnd for "a realistic look" put aluminum tape on the printed parts so no one can tell they were printed on a Professional Stratasys Dimension 1200/768 printer.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 01:41:19 am
content: The Dollar store used to sell EL night lights. IIRC, this is a thin plastic sheet inside the little light. Perhaps Dollarama still sells them.I'll go see next time I'm buying Mentos in bulk.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 01:42:23 am
content: The rope-memory (ROM) for Block II was 36,864 words of 15-bit+parity. Weight 70lbs.If this is a replica project, I can't see anyone hand-sewing that. Raytheon made a machine to do the sense-line wiring.ref:Journey to the Moon: The History of the Apollo Guidance Computer (Library of Flight)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 02:45:30 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 11, 2018, 01:41:19 amYou can go on eBay and buy EL sheets easily. That's not the issue. The issue is replicating thepreciseformulation to get the exact appearance -- and don't forget that her goal is to actually reproduce those EL displays, not create mock-ups that work but are hacked together.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 03:04:07 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 11, 2018, 01:42:23 amShe's just making the readout and keypad, not the whole computer (as far as I know). Plus, you wouldn't do that by yourself, you'd get a team together and have each person working on a different section, sort of like how Mythbusters made the million Lego ball.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 03:36:55 am
content: Ahhh not a total replica. It would be cool to see the EL display, totally unique. The entire UI is highly engineered:"Human-factor engineers standardized color and intensity of each category of light within the spacecraft. Color and intensity of the DSKY's electroluminescent-type lights could not meet the standard. Green, the only color available, was reluctantly accepted for numeric displays. Spacecraft status lights were white, and caution lights were yellow. Filamentary-type bulbs were necessary to meet those color requirements." Eldon C. HallThe EL display seems to need 250VAC 800Hz and driven by a matrix of 120 relays.Anybody know how to drive these with semi's and reasonable complexity?I only know of Westaim Corp., then iFire Technology who were into EL displays, but plasma and LCD took over.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 06:25:04 am
content: I don't know about triacs, but these might work.http://uk.farnell.com/hamlin/he751a2410/relay-reed-spst-no-300v-0-5a-tht/dp/9561854It says out of stock here, but I checked and Mouser still has them (their photo is wrong though, hence the old link).EDIT: You won't be getting them from Mouser any time soon, the minimum order is 5K, and Digikey seems the same. They might have them elsewhere though, we'll have to keep looking. But so far it's the only small relay I can find that will handle 250V.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 06:56:46 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on January 10, 2018, 09:04:46 pmI could not get rid of impression from the very first few seconds of the video that she is on some sort of medication.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 08:33:06 am
content: Quote from: Bud on January 11, 2018, 06:56:46 amI doubt it. Exactingly recreating obsolete bits of kit is opioid enough for certain engineers. At least it keeps them off the streets

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 11:12:24 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 11, 2018, 03:36:55 amHow much current does each segment need?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 01:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on January 11, 2018, 06:56:46 amShe’s mentioned in another video that she receives feedback that her voice is so calming that it actually reduces symptoms of some disorder that causes noise to be perceived as pain, so much that sufferers actually recommend her videos as relief!!I’ve also wondered what her voice was like before she transitioned — but I suppose that’s not really any of our business.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 01:48:35 pm
content: Almost zero, as they are basically capacitors with some slight dielectric absorption ( which is the light) but you can expect around 2-10nF per segment, depending on the size. Your display is essentially a very large segmented capacitor with a saving grace of having a moderate ESR as well due to the thin ITO layer needed to make it both optically clear and conductive on the front, though the rear contacts are generally a silver plate on the EL phosphor layer with an etched display layout on it.Generally the front will be masked to create the digits, cost depends if it is front of the glass or done with a glaze frit mask on the ITO layer before the EL screen print, which gives a much better contrast between digits at a quite lower yield and higher cost.The current is basically a capacitor with ESR of around 100R ( varies quite a bit) in series, though with a reed relay switch I would also add a series 1k resistor to each segment as well to keep switch current low, as you really cannot use any snubber across the switch elements.Electronically an optical MOSFET switch is nearly perfect, just have to use one with 400VDC rating, and if it is polarised then a bridge rectifier with each one will be needed, but with both being SMD you could make them a lot smaller in form than a relay ever could hope to be.Example is AQW280EHA athttp://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/1314/0900766b81314265.pdfwhich will do this without any problem with only a 5mA drive. DIP8 package as well is pretty small, available as through hole or SMD mount as well in the same size. You could fit them into the board space easily with room left over, and could even make some metal covers to emulate relays for them as well.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 04:08:24 pm
content: QuoteI'm confused at how you'd put 250VAC through a FET. How is a rectifier going to help? That would make DC, we want AC. Also, you overestimate the size of those relays, Fran has showed them before and they were the size of small metal can transistors.EDIT: Are they dual FETs? The datasheet doesn't seem to specify. They also run on 50mA, not 5.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 04:16:41 pm
content: Something like this should work fine :http://uk.farnell.com/vishay/lh1546adf/ssr-mosfet-spst-no-50ma-350v/dp/2103650

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 06:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 11, 2018, 04:08:24 pm

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 07:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 11, 2018, 01:42:23 amI guess most people may have seen this video. It goes through the Guidance Computer in detail including the assembly of the memory:

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 08:20:53 pm
content: There are videos out there of people actually tinkering with Apollo program rope modules. There are memory dumps and X-rays available.