Tronstol A1 ( former Neoden S1 ) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2020, 06:38:56 am
content: Hi!I got a Neoden S1 a week ago or so. It is now called Tronstol A1.Since I used this forum quite a bit to read up on my previous machine (Neoden 4 ) I thought I could contribute by writing a bit about my experience.Some impressions:- The file format is xml and it is very understandable. I who want to write an external sw producing these files are very happy about that. Way better than the neoden 4 file format.- Software "looks" alot better than N4 software. Not that that matter very much but at least someone care about the software!- Touch screen takes some getting used to. I ended up using the mouse quite a bit.Test 1:I used the test pcb and double sided tape that came with the machine. Opened the file for this PCB (it was located on the local drive). Disabled all feeders except the 0402. Inserted a nozzle. Calibrated the pick x/y position. Then I started the placement.All 25 x 4 0402 components was placed without any issue. No components was missed. Very happy moment!I repeated the test I think 4 times, so I placed 400 components int total. No issues at all.Test 2:I put in 4 nozzles and after some head scratching got it to use all four nozzles. I then started placement of the same file.I placed about 1000 componentsThe result was that components was not picked up quite often. Maybe 1 out of 40 components picks was unsuccessful. Also one component was placed up-side down.From experience from Neoden 4 I thought that the pick height might be too low. Because then the components shake around when the nozzle hits the tape. Sometimes ending up up side down.Using the manual test interface I test picked a few houndred components and when it missed there was no component in the slot.I adjusted the height upwards until it never picked a components. The factory setting was -14.5mm. It stopped to pick at -13.6. This confirmed that the pick height was too low. I put it to -14mm.Testing again all components was placed without any retry. I think I placed around 2000 0402 without any issues at all.As a side note I realized that the nozzle assignment function could be improved. It is quite convenient that you can disable different feeders. Then the placer ignore these feeders. But when doing the nozzle assignment, it still consider all components assigning nozzles like 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3,4... Even the one not enabled. Actually even setting the components itself to not be fitted does not solve the issue. The use of nozzles get out of sync so it sometimes picks only components with nozzle 3 and 4 then places, instead of filling up the head first.Future testsI have two PCB:s coming in. I will use these to test the machine.Also I want to test 0201 but I need to buy some 0201 reels...

author: Chad.Wagner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2020, 02:44:30 am
content: I had considered the S1, but ending up ordering the Neoden 4. I would be very interested in your comparison.I am very happy with the IN6, but having issues tuning in the 4. Lots of dropped parts and one of the nozzles is having issues with rotation right now. I have reported it to Neoden but I have not been able to answer their questions yet.

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2020, 02:31:26 pm
content: Hi!I do not know about IN7. Which one is that?I also had some issues with neoden 4 but when you get to know that machine it can be set up to place down to 0603 quite reliable I think. I have placed 0402 with it as well but with quite a lot of scrap and retries. I think the pick height has been the most critical parameter for me on the N4. (N4 is in my opinion alot of machine for the money but I have some issues with the software).However, comparing S1/A1 to N4, I allready can say that S1/A1 performs alot better when it comes to setting up things and for placement accuracy.I performed another test today with my new machine to test if I had to fiddle with the settings when swapping feeder position.Test 3Still only using one feeder in the machine (0402). I swapped the feeder position in the sw to a location far away from the first one (on the other side). I then pulled out the feeder and placed it in the new slot.I performed an auto calibration which worked great. It feeds one component and then automatically detect the pick position.Then I made a test placement of 100pcs 0402 components. Every component was placed correctly. No retries or anything.I must say that so far this thing works very well!Still waiting for components for my next assembly which will be the real test. Lots of 0402 and some fine pitch packages. 75 PCBA:s in total.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2020, 03:15:59 pm
content: Weird that they would change branding. Does the T1 have nozzle changer yet? Also, can you report actual cph you are seeing? 6000 cph sounds slow. I like the overall size of the machine. Does software have chinese/chinglish characters? Is the software smart enough to allow for more reels (ie if there are 68 feeders required for pcb, it will finish 58 and then need remaining 10)?

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2020, 04:06:21 pm
content: The original S1 has lots of issues that they had to pull it out of market completely. Kinda like having a bad name so they thought it would be better with a new name after relaunch.

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2020, 06:36:46 am
content: Does the T1 have nozzle changer yet?No, no nozzle changer yet.Does software have chinese/chinglish characters?My menus are in english.Is the software smart enough to allow for more reels (ie if there are 68 feeders required for pcb, it will finish 58 and then need remaining 10)?I don't know but I don't think so. However, this is a new machine and software is still developed. I know since the manual has been updated since I got the first manual draft a long time ago.My impression is that there is a completley different focus on the software for this machine compared with the N4. I hope they will continue to improve the software, not only fix bugs.Also, can you report actual cph you are seeing?Sure, I performed the two following tests for you.Test 4 - default speed settingI swapped location of my 0402 reel to a position really close to the PCBA.Number of nozzles:4Number of reels: 1Number of placed components 24Speed setting: defaultTime from picking first component to placing last component: 41sAverage time per component: 1.7sCPH: 2107Placements accuracy: looks good to me...Test 5 - high speed settingI swapped location of my 0402 reel to a position really close to the PCBA.Number of nozzles:4Number of reels: 1Number of placed components 24Speed setting: "speed"Time from picking first component to placing last component: 24sAverage time per component: 1sCPH: 3600Placements accuracy: looks good to me...Comment on speedI do not know how they get it up to 6000 CPH. I suppose that is the most optimal configuration you can get. If using 4 feeders instead of one and placing the components really close to the feeders you might get this speed. I guess it should be used for comparsion between machines more than as an actual measure of expected CPH. I think speed "looks" quite similar to N4.Regarding the need of speed I think it depends on what you do. I build prototype series for myself and my customers. The volume is between 5 pcs and 75 where 20 might be the average.I have concluded that what takes time is component handling, setting up the machine, inspecting the pcba:s etc. If it takes 5minutes to place one PCBA that is not a big issue for me I think. At least if you can rely on the result.I would like to have an automatic PCB feeder in front of the machine. That together with a nozzle changer would make it possible to let it run with a limited amount of babysitting...I am still new to this machine and the tests are not perfect but you get at least some indication.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2020, 10:58:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kammlake on October 06, 2020, 06:36:46 amThe same way everyone else does, by taking the absolute minimum time it takes to pick and place a component (or perhaps one movement pick and place move of the gantry) an extrapolating that time out to an unobtainable cph value. A quoted IPC rated speed would at least give you some idea of how fast it places in the real world but even they tend to be a little higher than you will get IRL.We do similar work and batch sizes with our Essemtec, any more speed than this in a standalone setup is almost meaningless, you need a line to take advantage of higher speeds and then you need the volume to keep that line busy. The S1/A1 is I think the most interesting cheapish Chinese machine to me, as I could see it doing some of the things the Essemtec does (feeder count still sucks), do we have anything other than rumour about its chequered introduction @GerardG it seems to be listed perfectly normally in the EU?I can't say I'm a fan of machines that promote the ability to swap in extra feeders to complete a build, that could only be a complete chore. It was a solution pushed fairly heavily at me a few years ago by MyData as their single sided feeder setup means those machine hold way less feeders than you might think. Out typical panel is done in ~2mins on that class of machine, can you imagine swapping feeders in and out that often?I do build boards that require more feeders than we own (they would fit if we did), with Essemtec, I manually split the job and run the boards through in two passes, this is OK(ish) when you know you can complete both passes in 2 days or less and you have a paste that doesn't mind that sitting around.

author: GEORGE12
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2020, 03:50:47 am
content: @Kammlakehow many feeders do you got ? i have a machine of the same type, not in working condition , any help possible ?rgdsGeorge

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2020, 06:58:31 am
content: how many feeders do you got ? i have a machine of the same type, not in working condition , any help possible ?I don't get what you mean by "any help possible" but......it has 58 feeder banks. The up-looking camera, that is an option, occupies 3 slots and the vibration feeder, which also is an option, occupies 4 slots. Wide feeders off course occupies more than one slot.I have bought feeders so that I can fill up the machine. Probably I should have bought some more wider feeders. Might also want some dedicated feeders in the future for the very standard components. I heard feeders for an essemtec or similar costs a fortune. Feeders for S1/A1 is still a significant part of the total cost but still quite affordable if they are needed.Since I have an N4 as well, that I think most of the time performs okeyish/pretty well for 0603 and bigger (although I always have an allergic reaction to the N4 sw when using it but that's a different story). I plan to put that one after the S1/A1. That gives another 48(max) feeders.Then I am pretty much set for the kind of jobs I do. With the N4 I could often not fit a job but I was not that far away.Actually I also would like another small machine after these two taking care of higher components like caps and connectors. It could be super slow. ( I think that should be tronstols next machine. A component placer for high components that connects to the A1.)Starts to be messy though with all the machines :-) would need some sw application for splitting up a job on the different machines. Have started on one...

author: GEORGE12
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 05:54:02 am
content: " i have a machine of the same type, not in working condition , any help possible ?"I mean, the same machine which we purchased last year hasn't even worked for a day at all. before that many issues on it and all related Tronstol/Neoden Engineers tried to repair it , it didn't happened , so lying same like it here with us. "i seen you pretty confident in this machine with a week and showing a positive attitude , unlike many others , so i wanted to know that , can you help me to repair my machine ?tksGeorge

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 06:06:12 am
content: @GEORGE12Sad to hear that your machine is dead. Neoden could not get it to work? What are the issues?

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 02:23:33 pm
content: Hi again!So I got a reel with 0201 resistors today. Picked up one of the cheapest I could find on digikey. Turned out to be 10k 5% from Bourns.Test 6 - 0201- Loaded the reel in a feeder. It is a little bit tricky since you need to get the "peel off" tape all the way through the front of the feeder.- changed nozzle- performed an automatic calibration of the stack (feeder).- Started placement of 96 components.(No other settings was changed except setting the "skip" setting to "false" on the 0201 components.Result-No missed components!-Placements accuracy: A bit hard to tell since I am not used to 0201. There is a slight miss-alignment. If that will cause problems or not I do not know. Maybe the soldering process will correct everything or maybe there will be tombstones etc.In addition I could see, during placement, that the components was sometimes quite far from centered. I suppose it will get better if they are more centered from the beginning. Maybe some adjustments (pick height?) will make this work out better?See attached picture (not the best one...)Over all, I think this result is not that bad at all!

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 02:32:56 pm
content: Looks OK to me, maybe 1 or 2 that might tombstone in reflow, but if you haven't tuned the vision or pick of that component size I don't think you can complain

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 02:44:59 pm
content: I performed another test (could not resist even though I have other stuff to do...).I changed the speed setting from "default" to "accuracy".Now the speed was much faster. I think I need to read the manual more... There are several speed settings and I suppose default then is the "sensitive" one.Anyhow...Test 7 - 0201 - speed "accuracy"-changed speed setting to "accuracy"Result:- Components that was not picked or descarded: 3- Placements accuracy: Slight missalignment.Comment:Identical to the missalignment in test 6. In fact all components are missaligned almost the same. The test PCBA is a 2x2 panel. So I get 4 circles. All of them are slightly aligned to the left (see picture of last post).So I think accuracy are better than it looks. It think the "system coordinates" (or whatever) needs to be slightly adjusted. Could also be that the fiducials of the test boards are not that good. or that the fiducial checking is not that accurate. The "component rings" are however shifted in the same direction in both test 6 and 7.That 3 components was missed I think is because of the higher speed in combination with that I havent tuned any pick parameters.

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 02:47:04 pm
content: SMTech:Looks OK to me, maybe 1 or 2 that might tombstone in reflow, but if you haven't tuned the vision or pick of that component size I don't think you can complainTotally agree. I am holding back my feelings... Think the result is better than expected... (so far)

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2020, 05:31:48 pm
content: I have started to work on my first job on the Tronstol A1. I think I will refer to it as TA1 from now on...Todays exercise was to place qr-codes on the feeders to be able to use my component management system when loading the machine. I place QR-codes on every component when I receive them.Still haven't figured out how to use the machine in the future when "automating" the loading of a job. Anyhow, that maybe is a different topic. I attach pictures of how I labeled the TA1 feeders. I used one big label on the side and one small one facing "outwards".

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 07:33:10 am
content: Hello Kammlake,I hope you get it running.In step and repeat it is misplacing the parts. You can see the left board is OK, next board is not OK, last board is OK.I loaded a single board and made the panel on the machine. The program is OK, it is not having the same problem on every panel.90% of the panels have this problem.Neoden is no longer building this machine because of these problems. The dealer is taking back the machines.I think I will go back to the N4 for now.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 08:24:33 am
content: How did you lock the PCBs? I don't see any Fiducials, did you bind the optical recognition to a pad? Can you explain the process a little bit?To me your issue looks like an optical recognition problem (and there can be a few issues behind that; too late illumination, wrong camera settings (shutter speed, brightness, contrast, ....) etc.)Resistors are mostly ok.I'm quite sure new companies for sure need some support with optical recognition, there are always parts which might be difficult. Of course it's annoying if those parts are standard items (SOT323, TSSOPs, ...).

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 09:34:08 am
content: I followed the manual and used the fiducials 1.5mm on the board edge.Then loaded the program and specified the step and repeat.Starting the production run the first panel can be OK. Sometimes the left board is wrong and sometimes the right board is wrong.I can not walk away from the machine. Have to inspect every board. About 10% of the panels is OK, we can not find any root cause. Neoden and the dealer have helped (day and night and in the weekends) to get it sorted.It can shift a component or completely miss a component, no noticeable pattern in skipping and placement offset. I am loosing a lot of components on this.I don't mind to loose some resistors or capacitors.Because the root cause is not found the machine can be returned to the dealer.Never had this issue with the N4.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 09:38:27 am
content: No, what is happening there makes no sense at all. Most of the parts on the middle panel seem to be where they should be and then there are a few in locations with no common shift and an extra cap from somewhere.. . Its like the control system lost track of where the head was. I thought the A1/S1 even had linear encoders tho' so that should be quite hard to achieve. So one assumes massive software bug?

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 09:49:51 am
content: I heard from our dealer that Neoden has stopped the production on this model before it gets out of hand.We talked about changing it to an N4 in tandem with the N4 we have, more feeders and no extra programming.

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 12:00:41 pm
content: Hi!The issues you have seems really bad! I haven't observed any such problems (yet?).The test PCBA I have been using is a 2x2 panel. All tests I have made have been working out ok. I don't know how many tests I done but I would guess that I have placed 20 panels at least. All components has been properly placed. I have only placed 0402 and 0201 so far.I am just about to try out first placement on customer PCBA:s (panelized boards). So I may find out soon if my machine also have this problem...Is it only for panelized boards you get this problem? If you run one PCBA at a time does it work better?

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 12:32:02 pm
content: Small components placed OK most of the time.SOT23 will be rotated wrong some times.Bigger components are more of a problem.Also changed all the video cables back in June, from black then to orange and last one was in green.Took me a lot of time to upgrade. But the according R&D the black and orange where giving problems in the factory also.Did you already upgrade to the green cables?

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 04:03:43 pm
content: I don't have such a machine.Did you try another nozzle (bigger) for the bigger components? Maybe some component is dancing on the nozzle due to insufficient suction.Another thing could be that the optical recognition is having some issue and there's some misdetection of the "base" orientation.Also check the quality of the cameras, maybe some white spot at the edge is giving the optical recognition some hard time.(I have implemented the optical recognition algorithms according to my needs to my machine (which I built from scratch), and those are issues which I had to deal with initially)

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 05:51:18 pm
content: Hello MR,thank you for your input.We have tested these settings.I have tried to change nozzle types. The R&D told me what nozzles to use, these are the same as on the N4, where I have no problem.Swapped the camera for a new tested one. Cleaned lenses.But it did not make any difference. The machine keeps doing OK on 1 PCB and messing up another.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 06:27:08 pm
content: Its probably a software issue. Chinese software is plagued with problems due to lack of R and D.Sad to hear neoden stopped this model but from my perspective the prices are extremely high. Used samsungs are much cheaper and 100x better. You may pay slightly more for feeders but have a proper setup instead of a makeshift problem prone unit. I really wish china would make a $10000 essemtec fox knockoff that worked 24/7 and was reliable using yamaha cl feeders. But it requires lots of R&D and precision manufacturing.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 04:35:40 am
content: The S1 feeder is more expensive than your CL feeder!

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 11:31:10 am
content: Hi!So I got the time to work some more with the Tronstol A1.So I have placed the bottom side of 40 2x1 panels so 80 pcba:s in total.Bottom side only have a few smaller components.Test 8 - assembly of 80 pcba:s (bottom side)Components12 x 04024 x 06032 x 08052 x sot231 x sot 223speed:highestResult:- Every single component was correctly placed.- Due to the highest speed setting there were some misalignment for the 0402:s however, seemed to work well after reflow.- I dig get one tombstone and two components that was soldered only on one pad. However this is most likely because of my paste printing. My paste application process needs some improvements for the 0402...I had four feeder problems during placement. Two was because of that the tape was not pulled back correctly, one was a jam due to a tape joint and one was a "jam" due to collision of the tape with the machine.- Tape not pulled issues: These I think was both related to my tape extenders. I had some exposed tape that got stuck. So, at least for now cant blame the machine.- The problem with the tape joint (two tapes joined together) was that the tape got too thick in this region so it could not pass through the front of the feeder. Seems like this is a weak spot for the feeders.- The "collision" was simply that the "used" tape went straight forward instead of down. I corrected by just bending down the tape slightly.I could remove the feeders, put them back, adjust settings (pick position and height) and continue the placement. Could also chose to ignore component or the full stack for the rest of the placements. For the extended feeder I took out the feeder ripped away the extender and saved the components from the first tape in a bin. When I had no components left in the feeder anymore I selected ignore stack and it placed all remaining PCBA:s without this component. (I placed it manually).When setting up I only did automatic calibration. No messing with numbers at all.There are some log-info generated (number of missed components per stack and messages with details). However I do not think these can be saved or stored anywhere. Maybe have missed something.Also I recently got an off-line software to prepare the files on a PC. I used it for this placement. It can convert BOM-files to the correct format. You can also assign feeders and change settings. It is partly the same interface as used in the machine. There is a tab where you also can connect to the machine through internet but I haven't tried that. I think it is nice that they have an external software. I had started to write my own software for this purpose but for now I can use the one I got instead.I have found some issues in the software that I think are bugs but nothing too bad and something you can work around. For example local fiducials on bottom side are not mirrorred automatically as the component coordinates. So I had to enter (pcb_width - fiducial.x). Not a big deal but took me some time to figure out.Also had some issues with how to change the position of the scrap bin. I quickly got a video explaining how to do it from Tronstol. (Well now I didn'd explained my issue good enough to get the correct answer but It led to that I could find out the issue myself anyways).Regarding the color of the video cables (that someone asked) mine are green.Next thing to do is to place top side of the PCBA. There we have LQFP-64, SOIC-8 and TSSOP-20 etc. Should be very interesting to see how this goes (based on the comments in this thread about placement issues with big components).

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 02:02:12 pm
content: Very interested indeed.In 0 rotation the QFP was on the pads. (good enough to solder)When rotating it gets worse.With my N4 it is spot-on in every rotation.

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 01:29:49 pm
content: Hi again!Test 9Assembly of 80 PCBA:s (as 1x2 panels).Result:The issue someone reported about random problem with components placed in the wrong direction was never observed. Every component was placed in the correct position. In fact all components placed with the head "3D-camera" was ok I think.Alignment of bigger chipsSo I did have problems to get the LQFP64 and 20-Pin eTSSOP aligned correctly.It did worked out better when I fine tuned the head reference point. however I didn't really get it to place the LQFP64 or eTSSOP concistently good. SO8 was ok but one could see that also these components were missaligned. Seems to be a problem when aligning with the up-looking camera.About one third of the LQFP64 had to be corrected before solder. However I never saw anything nearly as bad as in the picture "MakeIt" sent. The rotation from pick to place was 90 degrees. See attached picture of some random samples.The eTSSOP was consistently placed too "high" (about 0.5 to 1 pitch distance). Maybe I am doing something wrong with the setup.Also I have experienced one machine crash after managing to enter an incorrect position when modify the stack pick position. The machine moved back and forth with one nozzle down. Breaking the nozzle. Really should be some error handling added in the software.Also after this I have had three situations when the head freezes. I have to do a hard reset and then the initialization fails (it says that initialization fails but not why). When pushing on the cables in the head it start to work again. It might be that I got a bad connection during the crash. I do not know exactly what it is but since the connectors are correctly mated and it still helps when I push the cables it could be a cracked soldering or something. I probably need to deal with it because it might get worse.I did get in contact with tronstol about the freeze situation. Also got response and info about the connectors very quick. I have not contacted them about the positioning issues of the LQFP64. They may be able to help me to get better positioning. At the time I just needed to get the PCBA:s manufactured so I just pushed the chips before soldering.So to conclude:1. Random placement issues reported by other users seems to be solved.2. accuracy of placement with up-looking camera I didn't manage to get good enough for LQFP64. However no big misalignment (as reported by other user) was observed.3. All 0402, sot-23, sot-223 etc. worked fine.4. The software lacks proper error messages.5. The software seems to lack protection against unsafe movement. (I managed to enter a state where head was moving continuously with nozzle down).I think there is a good chance that the issues mentioned above will be solved. Still optimistic! Also should mention (to be fair) that the overall experience is not bad at all. When the head froze I could save my progress and continue where I was.

author: scooter87
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 05, 2020, 01:21:29 pm
content: Kammlake, have you had any new success with the up-facing camera? I'm curious if you know how to calibrate it? If so, could you please share the process? The S1 user manual doesn't seem to go into details about how to calibrate the camera.Also, has anyone had any luck populating a board without using the automatic feeder rails? Is it possible to populate a PCB using the magnetic tray like with the Neoden 4?

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2020, 02:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: scooter87 on November 05, 2020, 01:21:29 pmHello Scooter87,The Calibrating of the up-looking camera was was a problem with my machine. When rotating the component 180 degrees it sometimes rotates less and sometimes rotates more.Need to change the rotation in the CSV file to get it placed correctly.A panel of 4 boards with 2 PCBs rotated with 180 degrees is not possible to calibrate.

author: Kammlake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2020, 07:28:26 am
content: Hi!Regarding the up looking camera I was looking into it a bit but had to get the job done so I just started to build... I performed the automatic calibration first. What I then did was to just calibrate the head nozzle position a bit since I saw that the position of the LQFP was all slightly positioned to the upper left. This obviously helped with accuracy but precision still not good enough to get good results all the time for the LQFP. I have been lacking enough time to really get to know the machine...To me it seems like the 3D-camera is working pretty well but the up-looking camera still needs improvement. I think (hope) this is only sw-related.

author: scooter87
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 02:03:33 pm
content: Just saw an update on YouTube from Tronstol regarding IC placement/alignment:Seems the offset application of the X, Y, and Rotations in the "tools" menu might apply to ALL components placed, rather than just one particular component. I haven't tried this, but curious if anyone here has? Also seems the Dcam/upward facing camera would automatically adjust; however, I have not had much luck with my upward facing camera. Too many reflections that incorrectly measure component.There are also some videos regarding an X/Y driver update and new software update with "slow"mode. Has anyone tried this?

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 02:25:21 pm
content: Hello scooter87,Yes, this setting is for all the components.I have tried it all. New firmware for the placing head, new firmware for the stepper drivers. New firmware for the mainboard. And about 6 software versions.Use slow settings didn't improve it for me.I have returned my machine because the Engineers had only one solution left, "place your components correctly orientated in the tray and do not rotate during placement"Now I have the K1830 and it works like a charm. No problem with rotating bigger components.Hope you can find a solution.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 10:17:11 am
content: Quote from: MakeIt on December 16, 2020, 02:25:21 pmRandom as hell that they can mess up something like this one one machine model and have it working on others, it wouldn't hurt their model at all to just adopt openpnp, open up all the firmware and let their (clearly not very good) engineers make contributions to a community project. They'd get a more stable machine and nobody outside chine could touch the hardware price anyway.

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 03:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on December 17, 2020, 10:17:11 amIt looks like this is not a Neoden machine (Tronstol?).Now with the K1830 the interface looks the same as the N4 interface and also looks the same as N7 interface. I see a pattern here.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 02:17:42 am
content: It is. The S1 was pulled out of the market due to serious flaws. It's basically a marketing gimmick to erase the bad reputation the machine had when it came out as S1.

author: scooter87
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 30, 2021, 03:24:12 pm
content: I just wanted to write in about my recent experience with the Neoden S1/Tronstol A1I just completed my second batch of boards using the machine. First run was very much a learning experience, as I'm new to pick and place. This second run I was more confident in how to set up the machine; however, was nervous about this larger run and the alignment issues others, including myself, have experienced.I had pretty much given up on the up-facing camera, as I was having too many issues with reflections. It wasn't measuring the part correctly, thus rendering the camera useless, but this issue has now been resolved by adding some electrical tape on the feeder bank (see attached photo). The camera no longer picks up the reflections from the feeder bank and accurately measures the part and corrects for any alignment offset. I believe some additional software updates were made in recent versions to improve the camera functionality. I'm currently running Version 21.After calibrating the nozzle alignment, and calibrating the up-facing camera (dcam), I have been getting SPOT ON placement of larger IC's and components. (TSSOP28, SOIC 8/14, TDSON8, Inductors, etc.). I was not able to get good results before when just using the down-facing camera in the nozzle head, as others here have also noted.The up-facing camera is a GAME CHANGER for this machine. Once you get it working, the results are incredible. I now use the up-facing camera for all larger components, and the down-facing camera for all smaller chip components.I can't compare performance against the N4, as I have not used it. But the S1/A1 has great, easy to use software, and I have been very pleased with it. It's greater feeder bank capacity, ease of swapping out feeders, and larger component handling capability were the main factors for me choosing the S1/A1 over the N4. It certainly has it's "quirks" as other machines in this price point have, but the issues can be overcome, and the machine is improving as the factory team is very responsive and cares about making their product better.I purchased my machine through Neoden USA, and their support has been top notch. Always responsive and willing to help me out and answer any of my questions. Great people to buy from and work with.I know we often seek forums like this for help, and sometimes products get a lot of negativity. The flaws of the S1/A1 were giving it a bad rep, but a lot of improvements have been made, and continue to be made. I wanted to share my positive experience with the machine, and let others know not to be weary of getting one. I know I was on the fence between the N4 and the S1. The added capability of the S1 is what pushed me towards it, and I don't have any regrets.I've attached an image of the boards I recently assembled using the S1. I should also note that these were soldered using the Neoden IN6 reflow oven. Not shown are some large heavy inductors on the bottom side of the board (IHLP6767) which absorbed a lot of heat. After some adjustments of the profile, the IN6 soldered everything perfectly!Disclaimer: I am NOT a sales rep or spokesperson for Neoden or Tronstol. Just a very happy customer

author: robbok
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 03, 2021, 05:41:35 pm
content: Great information, thank you for sharing. I am looking to scale up from my current machine (Charmhigh). I bought an IN6 oven from Neoden USA last year and service and quality were good.Looking at the Neoden USA website today, they still list the S1 and there is no mention of Tronstol. Is it safe to say the S1 is no more and that if I order from them now in the USA, I will get the "good" machine? This is the largest expenditure we've been considering, so I cannot afford (literally) to buy a bad machine.Thank you!

author: scooter87
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 04, 2021, 09:31:38 pm
content: I purchased mine from Neoden USA as the Neoden S1. As far as I can tell, it's the same as the Tronstol A1. It has all the Neoden badging, but runs Tronstol Software and firmware, and is supported by Tronstol (as well as Neoden USA). Tech support from Neoden USA is very helpful and responsive, and they have equally good relations with both Neoden and Tronstol.I wish I had experience to compare the S1 against the N4, but I do not. For me the decision was easy to get the S1. I have many PCBs with several unique parts top and bottom. This requires me to do several passes through the machine and having to swap feeders. I can swap a single feeder on the S1, even if it's in the middle of the bank, without disturbing any of the feeders next to it. They just pop in and out. I believe this is more difficult to do with the N4.The component height capability is also what sold me on the S1. The S1 can handle 8mm parts. The N4 can only do 5mm, but the user manual recommends a max of 1.8mm for reliable feeder operation. I use a lot of bulky parts for power supply designs, so the extra component height was critical. I've placed components as high as 6mm with the S1 without issue.

author: robbok
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 05, 2021, 02:48:49 pm
content: Great info, thank you again. I too have many bulky, tall parts (mostly top-facing JST connectors) so the height capability of the S1 seems like just what I need.

author: Jemma.zhang
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 07:26:13 am
content: Thank you for your attention to Neoden S1(Tronstol A1),I'm the overseas manager Jemma from Tronstol. We are still selling Neoden S1(Tronstol A1).Our R&D team focus on every feedback from our customers.We are constantly update our machine.Most of our customer are willing to use it.This machine is easy and flexible to operate.It create value to our customers.We have a good relationship with Neoden USA.They are very responsible and do the strongest after-sales service and support for all products. You can buy it from Neoden USA with confidence. Neoden USA and Tronstol will work together to give you support.

author: Jemma.zhang
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 07:32:08 am
content: Thank you for using our machines and supporting us.We have been on the way of research and development. Hope that our P&P machine can always bring value to customers

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 08:05:42 am
content: Quote from: Jemma.zhang on March 01, 2021, 07:32:08 amWhat's with the 2 branding name (Neoden and Tronstol)?

author: Jemma.zhang
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 08:41:13 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on March 01, 2021, 08:05:42 amNow we are 2 different brands and different companies.This is our website：www.tronstol.com. Tronstol have own R&D team,Production department and Sales department.

author: PCBprototyping
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 09:37:32 pm
content: From our experience, Tronstol A1 is a very reliable and precise Automatic Pick & Place system, it can easily place 0201 to 35x35 mm components, all the initial flaws from Neoden S1 have been sorted out. Tronstol A1 will be replaced by Tronstol E4 in June 2022, which will have ball screw drive(10,000 CPH), automatic nozzle exchanger, SMART electric feeders and Linux desktop with intuitive user interface. Tronstol E4 supports automatic pocket recognition and feeder bank calibration for quick project setup and changeover.We are happy to announce that we became Tronstol distributor for Europe.We take care for local support, service and EU stock of machines.We are glad to answer your technical question, for more info visit us atwww.tronstolsmt.eu.