Scope recommendation for HAM radio repair - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: warnberg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2015, 09:13:56 pm
content: Been shopping, time for a scope for my bench and so many options out there. Want some advice from the experts... This scope will be used to build / repair HAM radio equipment, radios, power supplies, transverters, etc...First.. I figure I will need a 200MHz scope, might be able to get away with a 100MHz... not sure more then 2 channels is really necessary. With that in mind and trying to keep within a reasonable budget I've looked at the following and wanted some feed back from everyone..1) Rigol 1054Z (yes I know it's only 100MHz)2) Siglent SDS1202DL3) Hantek DSO5202BMV4) suggestions to look atSuggestions, comments, others to look at and consider?ThanksDavid

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2015, 09:32:52 pm
content: Check out the GWinstek GD2202E, 200MHz. Rather annoyingly some 20% has been knocked off the price since I bought mine, but you live and learn. It's an excellent scope btw.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2015, 09:34:36 pm
content: Quote from: warnberg on December 14, 2015, 09:13:56 pmWelcome to the forum.SDS1000X series:http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1369&T=2&tid=1

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2015, 09:51:28 pm
content: For general purpose Ham/CB repair work I would recommend getting two scopes.Find a cheap 100MHz Tek 465. I know it's an old analogue scope but this scope has some neat features that are relevant to Ham/CB radio repair that make it easier to make typical service measurements.But for any modern gear that has any kind of serial data bus (eg for PLL synthesisers etc) then you would also need a basic DSO.If you decide to just get a modern DSO then try and get one that is easy (as in less confusing) to use when looking at modulated RF waveforms.

author: Awesome14
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 12:20:05 am
content: It depends on how in depth you plan to service the equipment. I have found that USB DSOs offer flexibility not seen on pricier integrated-display scopes. But the laptop consumes a bit of bench. I agree that that two instruments are probably the best idea, but one ought to have frequency-analysis capability, preferably by FFT. These are pretty good:http://www.aaronia.com/products/spectrum-analyzers/?gclid=CPHntaDF3MkCFQuLaQodnV4AOg.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 02:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: warnberg on December 14, 2015, 09:13:56 pmShort wave or UHF? (Or even higher frequencies?)

author: warnberg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 08:02:34 pm
content: Right now I building transverters... UHF/VHF (specifically 70cm and 2 meter).. but will use it for HF as well..I'm leaning Siglent SDS1202X or the SDS1202X-S but am still undecided..Thanks for all the input from everyone giving me some options I had not thought of.David

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 08:08:22 pm
content: Welcome to the forum.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 09:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: warnberg on December 15, 2015, 08:02:34 pmInbuilt AWG's do not have the functionality of a standalone AWG. Single output and no modulation are just 2 of the features in particular you may miss. I recommend you save some $ and get the base model and put those $ towards a dedicated AWG.I wouldn't say this for a hobbyist maybe needing only a basic AWG but for your RF use you may be better serviced with a dedicated AWG.Daves reviews in case you'd not seen them:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-797-siglent-sds1000x-review/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-800-siglent-1000x-oscilloscope-teardown/Next step up in BW from the SDS1202X is either the older SDS1302CFL 2 Gsa/s but much less memoryhttp://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=58&T=2&tid=1ORthe much more capable SDS2000 or latest HW revision SDS2000Xhttp://www.siglentamerica.com/pd.aspx?tid=1&T=1

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 09:17:24 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 15, 2015, 09:06:35 pmThe Rigol DS1074Z-S waveform gen is a little limited but does have AM and FM modulation, it also has two outputs. I'd also recommend a stand alone AWG though unless you get a great deal on a builtin unit.If you can handle a 100 MHz scope I'd seriously consider the DS1054Z. Then save a few more bucks and buy an AWG and maybe a spectrum analyzer down the road.

author: fang64
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 10:06:31 pm
content: I'm using a Rigol 1054Z and would recommend it, I am doing radio repair on mostly modern radios when I have the time. Although my experience has been that along with the scope, the Arbitrary Waveform Generator has been invaluable as well at least in my endeavors. You definitely don't need both to do most work but in my case I started out with a VFO kit based on the Si570 for most my needs initially till I needed something more robust.

author: warnberg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 10:10:37 pm
content: Steve, isn't the DS1054Z a 50MHz scope?? or am I missing something?tautech, leaning siglent SDS1102X or SDS1202X....Thanks againDavid

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 10:28:40 pm
content: The DS1054Z is a 50MHz rated bandwidth scope, but it has a real world bandwidth of more like 100Mhz. It can be hacked to a rated bandwidith of 100MHz and have a real world bandwidth of something like 135MHz.

author: warnberg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 10:28:40 pm
content: Is the DS1054Z the scope that has the same internals as a 100MHz model and can be modified???I see the reply... sorry...ThanksDavidSo here is the quandry...1) DS1054.. 4 channels...... 400.002) SDS1102X.. only 2 channel.... 500.003) SDS1202X.. only 2 channel but 200 Mhz... 660.00for the money and the ability to go 100MHz the 4 channel Rigol might be the way to go...And Steve makes a good point... save the money and later add a AWG and spectrum analyser ...

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 10:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: warnberg on December 15, 2015, 10:28:40 pmExactly - so for ~375 USD shipped you can have a 4 channel 100 MHz scope with all of the extra features "enabled" - SPI/I2C/serial trigger and decode, more waveform memory, waveform record/playback.It is very hard to beat at this price.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 10:42:34 pm
content: This might be a bit weird, but I use a spec analyser more than a scope, especially if you are interested in transverters, they are really helpful.Consider a spec analyser instead?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 10:46:34 pm
content: 200MHz will be a bit more useful, but not too much. As suggested a spectrum analyzer would be great.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: warnberg on December 15, 2015, 10:28:40 pmTo be well informed you need to do more research on the forum for the various threads. Just one:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 11:36:48 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 15, 2015, 11:01:26 pmYep, the Rigol still has a few bugs, they don't seem to be that big of a deal most of the time though. Pretty sure the Siglent products often do as well, and they include rust at no charge.Anyway, something else to consider down the road would be an HP8920B or HP8921A Service Monitor - then you get a signal gen, tx test, rx test, spectrum analyzer, modulation analyzer, dummy load, wattmeter and loads more that operates 0.4 to 1000 MHz(with the proper options) all in one box.We may be getting way beyond what you wanted, never hurts to dream though right!btw I'll always recommend an HP/Agilent/Keysight product over a Rigol, Siglent etc and there are often great deals to be had on ebay with RF related items and such. However when it comes to scopes they have really progressed in the past few year so it is tough to beat the bang for the buck newer Rigol and Siglent products offer.and I also use all of my toys for ham radio.

author: sreeb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 02:56:12 am
content: Quote from: warnberg on December 15, 2015, 08:02:34 pmSomething in the 500 MHz range sounds useful but that probably means something used.

author: cncjerry
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 09:18:50 am
content: Inexpensive scope like the Rigol and a spectrum analyzer. I also agree with someone who mentioned the Tek 465 plus a DSO, just add a spectrum analyzer and you are done. Some DSOs have an FFT based SA in them, I guess most do these days, but they aren't very usable compared to a dedicated SA.I have the Owon SDS7102V, I think is the number (on the low end, battery operated scope) as well as a 3054b and my personal favorite TDS 784. I grab the Owon often because of the battery. But having the analog 465 type scope makes things really easy especially if you are new to scopes and not sure what you are viewing. An analog scope for some reason is just easier to get an initial picture, no menus, just knobs and triggering is pretty reliable. I think I have 7 or 8 scopes now and when things get tough I often pull out my 7603 or take the DUT to it, more like it. One of the best places to find a great deal is the local craigslist if they have it in your area. Here in the SF Bay Area there must be twenty old scopes listed at any one time. This way you can check them out as well. As far as the Rigol, every bug, twitch, glitch, blemish, feature, etc is described in depth on this forum.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 09:49:27 am
content: Quote from: cncjerry on December 16, 2015, 09:18:50 amAnd, for amateur radio purposes, an SA in the form of a DSO+FFT doesn't have useful specs.If you are looking for phase noise, nonlinearities and dynamic range in a radio receiver or transmitter, you really need a radio receiver with excellent linearity and excellent dynamic range and a very stable oscillator. You lose low noise, but (to coin a phrase) amplification is cheapOnly a good dedicated SA can achieve all that.

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 11:00:48 am
content: A Spectrum Analyzer would be more handy than a scope for most radio work, such as a Tektronix 2712. A basic analog 30-50 MHz scope will do almost anything else you need, audio and low level modulation wise, but the Spectrum Analyzer is a must for RF work.

author: warnberg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 09:28:38 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on December 15, 2015, 10:42:34 pmYou know I have thought about that... and I'm actually looking into using this SDRplay I have as a spectrum analyzer not sure as to limitations at this point and still have to workout the details but I think it's doable... thoughts??ThanksDavid

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 09:39:15 pm
content: One of the problems with transverters is that they tend to have outputs at frequencies where they shouldn't.To make sure that's not happening then the quality of the spec ana needs to be high or you'll be wondering if it's the SDR causing the sprog.If you can find one with a good display, then an Anritsu MT8801 with the analog and spec ana options works well as a radio test set, sig gen spec ana, mod meter and frequency counter. If you can find one cheap enough then a Marconi 2945 or 65 also have spec anas in, and whilst the 2955 doesn't have a spec ana it will do all the other measurements you need and they are readily available and the service manual is good should you need to repair it.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 09:30:01 am
content: My first Spec analyser was a SDR type and was not v useful, the noise floor was pretty high and had quite a few spurs/birdies. Then it stopped working.I bought an old HP 8592A which was so much nicer to use, and it is probably the most used bit of test gear (after a handheld DMM and PSU) in my shed. Its not one of HPs finest SAs but still pretty useful.Guys like KJDS and G0HZU are serious tech guys and know their SAs so much better than I do.I suspect in 5-10yrs or so the SDRs will be pretty hot and may overtake old style SAs but the good units will for sure be expensive and will take a few more years to filter down to reasonable prices even used.If you go down that path allow for some extra for stuff like attenuators, DC block.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 11:26:14 am
content: QuoteAgreed, but you can still do some useful ham radio stuff with a DSO/FFT.eg my old Tek TDS2012 can be configured (in FFT mode) to undersample and show the spectrum/bandwidth of a 28MHz morse code test signal sent as a series of dits at, say, 2 dits per second. A conventional spectrum analyser would struggle to resolve the signal. Obviously the undersampling opens the door for alias problems but a cw signal should be a narrowband signal anyway so this method is quite valid in practiceAlso the TDS2012 is quite fast in FFT mode and can display human speech fairly well. For a narrowband SSB signal at 28MHz or it can be used to display speech or the classic two tone SSB test signal and it will do it much faster than most traditional spectrum analysers. You have to buy something fairly modern with a decent digital IF and DSP to compete with it in this respect

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 11:53:22 am
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 17, 2015, 11:26:14 amWe are in fairly violent agreement.That scope and the way you are using it isn't too far from an SDR receiver. Even some of the remarkably cheap (£15) RTL-SDR dongles are being pressed into doing surprisingly interesting things, as shown by the many many websites devoted to them.

author: warnberg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 06:05:43 pm
content: Well... thank you all so very much for your input... a New Rigol DS1054Z now sits on the bench.. for 400 bucks I just couldn't resist.Thanks Again and Merry Christmas allDavid

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 02:10:19 am
content: Well done, it is very popular around here for a good reason, it is a good Scope.All the best for 2016.