Trapped by rubbish software in white goods - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 07:16:44 am
content: ...........................rant alert........................I have a house full of this stuff and it mostly gets to annoy me every-time I use itI just put the washing on and the stupid Indeset software wastes 10Ltrs (2Gals) of cold water before starting the hot fill, it has many other tricks up its sleeve like wasting water when you put things in just for a spin.The fridge decides to run a 500W heater in the back for so called auto-defrost at frequent intervals.The TV recorder doesn't allow you to select among 250 recordings other than by scrolling.I have a Fronious GTI that fafs around doing nothing useful for nearly 5 minutes every time it drops offline (frequently).I could go on but you know what I mean and I am sure everybody else has a house full of this stuff.Guess they employ child programmers with no experience and have long since ceased bothering to test there productsIf only it were mandatory to provide consumers source code on request so we could fix the crap they send out!!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 07:28:33 am
content: I guess the adage is somewhat relevant, you get what you pay for. That being said, I've seen some pretty awful software/firmware in some popular brands too.Before buying an appliance, I always do my homework first and read about the opinions and gripes of those who have bought them before me. Keeping it simple is also better in most cases and we're slipping so far away from simplicity with these Internet of Things appliances. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: a truly smart home is one which is well designed with thought in-mind, not about how many IoT devices you can stuff into it.For example, your vacuum cleaner or coffee machine does not need to be Wi-Fi or cloud enabled.Personally, I try to stick with trusted and long-standing brands designed and manufactured in Europe, Australia and the USA.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 07:45:26 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 08, 2018, 07:28:33 amYes I agree but unfortunately a bit like the semiconductor industry of the last decade or so many of these have been swallowed up by shell companies and the respected employees ditched, manufacturing moved to China etc etc so brand names mean nothing in this day and age! Trying to find white goods genuinely manufactured in USA/Europe is hard indeed, testing all the features of software before you buy impossible.We take it on trust that say a car manufacturer actually knows what a car is supposed to do, one wonders if consumer protection in the guise of unfit for purpose could be used against some of these blatantly bad products.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:02:26 am
content: Just a point: all Indesit stuff in manufactured in or close to Europe (UK, Turkey, Poland usually)You will find that this is building down to a price point. Indesit’s tag line first word is “affordable” which immediately means with compromise. What happens is that there is a loosely defined QA process for software which means it ships when the device first works and that’s it. These never get a software update. The service companies are FRU replacement and that’s it. If you reported this as a defect they would “replace the electronics” and stuff the same module in with the same software. This happened to me with some Beko stuff.Eventually bought some Miele and Bosch stuff in at 3x the cost and it’s been fine.Really I’ve found the best approach is buy from companies with a reputation. They means Miele, Bosch, Sony, Apple etc. And don’t buy the bottom rung stuff. The cost of ownership is the same over the lifetime of the device minus the hassle.I’m finding the same with cheap Chinese test gear. So many bugs in my DG1022Z it’s getting frustrating.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:31:41 am
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on January 08, 2018, 07:45:26 amTrue, you can't just rely on brand name alone, but you can quite easily work out where in the world they are being made. For example, in Australia, there is Chinese-made Bosch and European-made Bosch. Needless to say the price difference is significant, but it gives consumers an option, they just need to check the label on the back of the appliance.Quote from: bd139 on January 08, 2018, 08:02:26 amI know I'm opening a can of worms here, but I personally don't put Apple in the "quality" category. Their business model (like many other huge companies) is getting their consumers locked in to their products and eventually forcing them to upgrade to newer and newer models. Sure, Apple products are orders of magnitude ahead of your cheap, Chinese products in terms of their build quality, but in many cases, they leave a lot to be desired. The worst part about it is, they don't give a crap what you and I think.I've personally found "middle ground" in large companies with a proven track-record, but not so big that they force products down everyone's throat with tons and tons of advertising. For example, my TV is a Philips, fantastic quality, no bullshit software. It does exactly what it's supposed to do in that it takes a video input and displays it, very well. No, it doesn't have Netflix or an ultra-thin bezel, but I honestly don't care.Another example is my fridge, Electrolux branded, owned by the Swedish but was the last line of fridges actually manufactured in Australia before they closed the plant. They've produced and aquired some pretty amazing and reliable brands in their almost 100 years of operating.A final example are both my washing machine and dishwasher, both made by Siemens and both absolutely top-notch. Sure I paid a bit more, but the price is reasonable and with routine cleaning and generally looking after them, I'd expect both to last well over 10 years.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:50:22 am
content: I disagree with them not giving a crap. They’re overly helpful. I’ve hsd bugs fixed and tracked in OSX and iOS.Microsoft, even though we pay a lot of money for them under a partner agreement are impossible.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:56:31 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 08, 2018, 08:50:22 amI'm talking generally. Yes, they are helpful in ways that costs them little money. You walk into an Apple store with a broken screen on your iToy, and provided it's a new model, you'll probably walk out of there with a nice, new, shiny screen. It's how they keep a lot of their repeat business and for that, I commend them.But when they deliberately make hardware or software changes at the user's detriment, that's bullshit. There are many examples of it, the latest being the whole battery/CPU under-clocking issue. You buy the product knowing it has a smaller-than-ideal battery capacity and that's fine, but power/performance settings should be the user's decision, not what Apple thinks the user wants.Getting back on-topic, if you pay a premium price for a product, it should come with premium performance and reliability.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:19:02 am
content: You make some good points blueskull, but just a rebuttal on a few points you raised...Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:09:39 amOn the contrary, I know exactly how young people, or probably more accurately, "the average consumer" thinks.I'mnot an average consumer. I couldn't care less if next door wants to spend their hard-earned money on the latest ultra-thin Samsung display or a flashy new iPhone. I was always taught the value of money and to buy once, buy properly, even if it's something as simple as a kettle to boil water in. By the way, my kettle is non-electric, boils water just as fast as an electric one and will probably out-survive me with proper cleaning. Why spend $15 on the cheapest, nastiest "hot water boiler" every 6 months when I can buy a decent one for under $100 that will last a lifetime?Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:09:39 amYou might be right, but there is no shortage of shitty dishwasher brands in Australia. If you want to buy the cheapest, there is plenty of choice in that end of the market, just expect to be replacing sprayer arms, pumps or the entire unit in next to no time.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:26:32 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:23:03 amAhh, yes... Apple Care... the product which basically gives you nothing above and beyond what Australian Consumer Law already provides.Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:23:03 amI have to say I'm disappointed with Sony. I previously owned one of their professional video cameras. After light use, it developed a problem which required a replacement mainboard. It was the last time I touched a Sony product, professional or otherwise.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:39:52 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:34:05 amYes. I got AppleCare for the premium replacement service. They send a new device to me before they take the old one away. Zero downtime. If I smash it I can just walk in an Apple store and walk out with a new one. This is important for me because I run my entire operation off it. One day down might cost more than a new device for me.I can however walk into an Apple store in the UK and get a faulty device swapped over instantly. I have done it before (my daughter's 2 year old iPhone 5S had a white spot on the screen) - they replaced it and moved her stuff over in under an hour. I've replaced cables and earphones that are years old without quarrel which have failed. None of those are covered by Apple Care. If I smash the screen, I pay for it.Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:23:03 amAndroid and iOS have 40% of usage market share across the client side, OSX 5% of things and MSFT have merely 51%. Neither iOS or Android really existed a decade ago. Go figure where the market is heading. Hell MS's mobile apps sell better on other platforms. They're even deploying Android devices in my local supermarket to kill off the "dark" Windows CE deployments. Server-side, MSFT are circling the drain. You can see this when they started deploying .Net and SQL Server for Linux and started to integrate Linux support, docker and SSH into windows. If you can't beat them, join them.Back on topic again, there is a manufacturer in the UK, the name of whom escapes me unfortunately who just build a chassis for your white goods and put generic multi-sourced parts in it. Those don't have a design life built in. They happen to sell the generic parts as well and top quality service coverage same day. Usually found in hospitals, kitchens etc here in the UK. Premium is about 20% on top of Miele for example but 20-30 years is not an unreasonable lifetime expectation. Normal replacement cycle is 5 years for cheap white goods so that's a good win if you are playing the long game.I'd like to see more of the above. Rather than thousands of containers of pre-built crap being shipped, ship the materials, assemble in destination country. Far more efficient.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:41:32 am
content: Why is there an apple discussion in the White goods topic?I know some apple stuff is white... But still?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:42:46 am
content: As usual someone, me this time, mentioned Apple, as someone who actually kicks out quality items with support to back it up.White goods should be doing the same. But alas, most are built by the lowest bidder and churned out en masse with a short design life and no support. Most of the white goods manufacturers rely on third party service companies which never fulfil their obligations. I know someone who worked for one of them and they rarely repaired anything; write it off and a new one turns up (after several months of arguing).Buy quality, buy not just for the item itself but the service that comes with it, if you don't want a world of pain.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:45:49 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:34:05 amI don't blame you for being sceptical, but Australia's ACL is actually quite powerful. Sure, deliberate damage caused by misuse or negligence isn'tgenerallycovered, but you're not covered for that even with Apple Care. If a product is not "fit for purpose under it's normal purpose" or "reasonably durable", then Apple and everyone else must remedy the issue at their expense.Recently, Apple were forced to prominently display consumer rights on theirAustralian websiteafter an investigation by the ACCC and subsequent court order.Even with AppleCare+, you still need to fork out AUD$45 for a replacement screen, on top of your additional manufacturers warranty (AUD$299 for iPhone X and AUD$189 for older iPhones). It's probably cheaper just to buy a durable case if you're the type to keep dropping phones.In comparison with my current phone, I can get a replacement screen for theSamsung Galaxy S8for AUD$220 directly from Samsung, if the issue was found to be my fault.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:54:32 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 08, 2018, 09:41:32 amWell, the subject title is about operating software and white goods are consumer appliances. You can make a good argument that an iPhone is a consumer appliance (it is a closed system with a pre-defined combination of hardware and operating software), and furthermore the operating software in an iPhone is just as able to annoy you as the operating software in a washing machine.What annoys me about iOS (for example), is that each new release is dumbed down over the previous one, removes choices and options, and generally makes things harder to find and harder to accomplish. So having updated my phone from iOS 10 to iOS 11 I have found the experience so bad that I am in no hurry to let my iPad update. It stays on iOS 10 for as long as possible.Whether the annoyances in OS updates are bugs, or poor design choices, or mis-features, or simple incompetence is a matter for debate, but the debate is still there.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 10:02:07 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:23:03 amMost so called reviews I have encountered are rubbish especially on the likes of Utube, there just in it to make money, have no product or usage knowledge and unfortunately if you search on product review that's about all you turn up. About the only way to find out if anything is any good is to persuade someone else to buy it first, a fast way to loose friends

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 10:06:58 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 10:04:09 amYes, but they probably rely on review samples and therefore have to give positive reviews to stay in business. It is doubtful they can be treated as unbiased sources.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 10:09:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 08, 2018, 10:06:58 amAnd the reviewer usually gets to keep the product as an added bonus!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 10:21:28 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 08, 2018, 10:06:58 amAnd they won't do anything that pisses off their advertisers.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 11:18:21 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 08, 2018, 09:54:32 amDictionarywhite goodsnoun1. large electrical goods used domestically such as refrigerators and washing machines, typically white in colour.archaic2. domestic linen.No apple product fits the description. Unless there is an iWash or iBlender I am not aware of.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 11:27:48 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 08, 2018, 08:56:31 amThese days a premium price for a consumer product generally buys more bells and whistles, but the same stripped to the bone quality for the core of the equipment. Only a very few brands attempt to buck this trend, like Miele.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 12:47:50 pm
content: About a year ago we got an LG front loader washing machine. Inverter driven motor with direct drive to the tub. So far so good. Even has a function that you can push a pair of buttons and it will play a series of tones (like an acoustically coupled modem does) into a smartphone app to help diagnose any problems. The really dumb thing about this washer though is that when it is filling up, the water gets turned on and of maybe twenty times! Perhaps partially fill and then rotate a bit several times for the sake of evening out the wash load might make sense, but this puts in what sounds like as little as half a cup at a time. We have noisy house pipes too, so had to go and get a water hammer surge arrester thing. Next time I'll document it properly, but it's just ridiculous how slow and tedious and halting it is to fill.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 12:55:53 pm
content: Miele is great. Miele has updateable firmware. Our washing machine and cloths dryer are updateable.In theory - at least.If you have the programmer (IR or something) and someone to give you the binaries. In practice those are located with the service manuals in some super secret clandestine stash accessible only to poeple who don't care.Miele marketing promise updateable firmware. I don't buy that putting it in an inaccessible FTP counts as delivery. Miele are yet another brand the is fully bait n'Switch.Miele is great at marketing. Too bad it is like Bauknecht, Electrolux and BSH in practice. Gaggenau is even worse. Crap service.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 04:56:09 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 08, 2018, 10:21:28 amSony is the garbage consumer crap of the audio market. Way back in the day they used to make decent transistor radios, now the just make integrated amp crap.Does anyone have one of those Samsung computer fridges? I bet that's a nighmare.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 05:18:38 pm
content: Sony have always made good hardware and shitty software.Actually that's every Japanese company since about 1985. Let's not talk about Japanese products from the 1960s and 1970s. Silent revenge for Nagasaki and Hiroshima etc I suspect

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 05:47:04 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 08, 2018, 09:41:32 amWhen Apple first went to white they weren't "white". They were "Platinum".

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 05:50:36 pm
content: Asko washer. At the end of the high-speed spin cycle it would turn the motor off.Off. Not slow it down first. The current had to go somewhere, so there would be a nice, bright blue arc with it's associated sound while it burned off a significant percentage of the brushes and pitted the commutator.The solution was a new controller with updated software. And a new motor.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 05:53:37 pm
content: Microwave ovens are THE worst case in point. Why is it that these appliances invariably have buttons for cooking time adjustment, but these buttons are NOT what you use to set the time? More often you have to press the Start button repeatedly. The designs are simply crackpot, there is no other way to describe it.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 06:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on January 08, 2018, 05:53:37 pmMy wife has just bought the microwave equivalent of those "big button phones" for older people. It has four buttons in total, one to set heating time in 30 second increments, one for defrost time in 30 second increments, a go button and a stop button (proper buttons, no crappy membrane or touch sensors). It has a four digit seven segment display to show the time (which switches off after cooking has finished) and that's it, not a single pointless feature and it has a nice flat base with no turntable. Heaven.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 07:12:50 pm
content: Mine's got a knob and no software!(I've learned never to spend more than £30 on a microwave)

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 08, 2018, 07:12:50 pmAhhhperhaps that's the answer, electromechanical YES software NO!I had a dehumidifier lasted 25 years till leaks in the refrigerant circuit became beyond repair, the humidity sensor was a hair (don't know what animal) operated micro-switch, never failed! Replacement had electronic sensor and software, what a nightmare, never on when needed and never off when house dry. Eventually got so fed-up built my own controller to override it but still relies on over-hyped electronic sensor, should have kept that old animal hair thing dang!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:14:44 pm
content: There is something to be said for the simplicity of a basic mechanical timer. Any idiot can operate it and there is relatively little to go wrong. At least 99% of the time I don't do anything with the electronic controls on my microwave other than set the cooking time and press Start. Occasionally I use the beverage button to heat a cup of water for cocoa or tea but I could live without it.I'm actually not a fan of updateable firmware. The fact that they can theoretically update it later leads to sloppy production and QA, shipping a barely usable product on the promise of fixing the bugs later. Unfortunately in practice that rarely happens, they're too busy working on next year's model. Against current trends, I want to buy a product that is *done* and use it as delivered until it wears out. The last thing I want to do with my white goods is tinker with firmware updates that brick the thing or break features that were working before.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:26:21 pm
content: The story of "planned obsolescence" is an interesting one and basically you hit several nails on the head here (got the issue right) in your analysis about why its done below.One word that I often use is "churning". With money getting tighter, decisionmakers are being beseiged by various "business types" who are basically telling them to stir things up to generate business. From this point of view, huge disaters are framed as good things, if they force people to buy lots of stuff they don't otherwise need. Also, the advertising industry frames older people as "dead weight" and isnt that far away from saying they are better off dead. I kid you not.They want them, as well as poor or uneducated people pushed out, regardless of the value they add to the community, which is real but not measured in dollars. They want to destroy the intangible but important thing, trust people have in one another, and replace it with commercial relationships which will disintegrate whenever there isnt money behind them. Because they can make more money this way, they are always looking for things they can use to put large groups of people at a disadvantage. I call this exclusionism, and its like stealing from society.To sell their schemes, they use wildly overoptimistic estimates of the money their proposed changes will bring, which never pan out. But that doesn't matter as the whole point is the churning, and the profits to be made there. Not the outcome.Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:09:39 am

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:34:30 pm
content: Fortunately in the case of most white goods I can easily keep older units running for the rest of my life. My washer and dryer are around 15 years old now, I've replaced various parts in both and they're working fine, I have no plans to replace them in the foreseeable future. I like my front load washer but I could get by with a 30-50 year old set if I had to and even with my dryer once you remove the modern styled exterior the inside is barely distinguishable from one built in the 1950s. Clothes dryers are very simple devices, very little has changed under the skin in decades.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 08, 2018, 08:34:30 pmMaybe you are single! I remember being told by a friend that my wife was bitterly complaining to all who would listen about my repairing activities and how she longed for a new washing machine among other items like her friends had

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:51:39 pm
content: When people are forced to move they have to dump a lot of it and often buy all new stuff..So, extreme weather suddenly becomes a business opportunity in all sorts of ways. For some people.Also regulatory changes often can force people to buy all new stuff.. For example, driverless cars. Forcing people to buy driverless cars will be easy, they just wont allow non-driverless cars on the major highways or urban streets.. and keep expanding the areas where they are not allowed.Even if because of automation, highways are deserted, I guarantee you they will do this anyway. They are already counting the profits.They are like addicts, their sense of entitlement is so thick its sickening.They are just determined to do it, no matter what.Its their way.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 08:54:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 08, 2018, 08:34:30 pmUnless you get one of those steam ones...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:09:00 pm
content: I don't know if people still do this but a friend of mine many years ago who was from Texas, she wasn't poor, nor was she a 'redneck' in any way, just Texan- Anyway many years ago this friend who spoke with a strong Texas accent, told me that many people there, even the well to do, washed their clothes by putting them in a cooler or 55 gallon drum that they just put in the back of their pickup trucks, the motion of the truck and some soap would perform the washing activity.Back then many people would pride themselves on their thrift, so even rich people would do things like that.It seems like we've lost that quality, or maybe a media campaign to make people value new always over old (even when the old is made to last and the new isnt)TV shows that deify shopping until you drop have shamed thrift out of many people.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:30:48 pm
content: I find it funny that people here think Bosch washers and dryers are good products. Not Bosch America products. Worst quality control of any product we have owned and they were EXPENSIVE. Finally, SWMBO got a set of Maytag Commercial products and she absolutely loves them.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on January 08, 2018, 08:50:16 pmI'm not, but she uses the washer and dryer I provide and maintain, otherwise I will happily take over laundry duties myself as I did for years when I was on my own. I got banished from that job after ruining a few of her shirts or something years ago but I'm sure I could manage to avoid that. Fortunately she generally shares my attitude that it's usually better to fix than replace and pointless to needlessly throw perfectly good money away replacing perfectly good equipment. I'm not going to buy shoddy new appliances just to get a trendy new skin on the same antique technology. I've proven my abilities to properly repair equipment many times over, I'm not the stereotypical bumbling incompetent domestic mr. fixit depicted in sitcoms.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 09:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on January 08, 2018, 09:30:48 pmI've never seen a Bosch washer or dryer but I know several people with Bosch dishwashers and those are wonderful. Not the easiest to work on and not completely trouble free, but incredibly quiet and do a nice job of cleaning the dishes. Relatively average in regards to maintenance and reliability.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 10:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 08, 2018, 09:37:00 pmI have a Bosch dishwasher, but it had a major design flaw. The current for the water heater was routed through ordinary copper traces on the control board to relays soldered into the PCB. The solder joints at the relay pins are not up to handling the mains voltage and current required for the heater and they eventually fail open with arcing and charring around the connection.It took me two attempts to fix by thoroughly cleaning and remaking the solder joints and reinforcing the current path with extra copper. The alternative was to pay ~$200 for a replacement control board, which would probably contain the same design flaw.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 10:34:23 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 08, 2018, 10:15:33 pmInteresting, I know several people who have them, I'll keep that in mind as there's a good chance I'll be called to take a look at it if/when that fails.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 11:10:59 pm
content: And... this is a preview of what happens when the controller of all your IoT-enabled white goods also has rubbish software .....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42614281

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 11:38:07 pm
content: QuoteOxymoron alert! If you have a "smart home" you forfeit any simplicity. Simplicity is electromechanical appliances.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 12:24:13 am
content: There are times when it makes sense to connect something to the internet, but at the moment the IoT fad is looking a lot like the dot com bubble of the early 2000's. IoT is all the rage and everybody is building internet connectivity into everything just because they can. I cannot imagine the frustration somebody non-technical like my mother would experience with this stuff. The other day she told me her CD player had stopped working, I forgot to look at it when I was there and then a few days later she told me she "fixed" it by discovering the disc was in upside down.She's very intelligent by most measures but tech is just something that doesn't click with her and I know there are millions of other people in that same boat.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 03:14:11 am
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on January 08, 2018, 07:16:44 am50+ replieson an EE forum, with long oscilloscope-hacking threads no less, and no one has made the comment that you don't need the source code to fix things?Whatever happened to the "hacker spirit", as it were? I suspect that's why products are so crap these days --- no one really bothers to actually do anything about it beyond complaining.Buy a cheap machine, make it better yourself --- I wonder if there's a market for these mods... provided you don't get noticed by the bureaucractic regulatory wankers.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 03:26:33 am
content: Breville toaster oven. Here's a fancy-looking device but the buttons are poorly debounced. The mode selection moves back and forth while spinning the knob in one direction, and the power button beeps on and off from one press.I mean JEEZ, does no one put in 15 seconds of thought into how fast people can press a button, and how quickly it should react?Is it logical to press start on a toaster and immediately after decide to turn it off? Why not debounce for 300-500ms?My LG washer seems to be able to decode a selection knob properly. I know it's not trivial, but I've tried to write code to filter out runt "backward spins", and it isn't that hard. either.I wrote some PIC assembler to properly decode a rotary encoder, I just kept kludging in more and more counters to remove runt backwards spins to simulate "inertia" of a massive knob. It turned into a mess of ad-hoc "if thens" but I'm not a programmer, perhaps there's a simple and logical way to filter out unwanted pulses and determine the actual direction of movement.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 03:50:56 am
content: Quote from: amyk on January 09, 2018, 03:14:11 amRegulatory issues stop this in Australia, its really sad. I have an oven which you can pay an extra $300 for the next model "up" with more functions, all they did was change the rotary switch mechanical detents to include mode combinations of the functions already in the oven.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 06:07:27 am
content: With all that garbage made in china what do you expect from software.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 06:27:43 am
content: I personally have no problems with China or the Chinese people but there is a whole lot of low grade garbage that comes from there. Now it's not that China is incapable of building quality goods, but the American companies that outsource production to China typically are on a mission to reduce cost to the bare minimum. People here then shop by price and it's a race to the bottom. Unfortunately the label "Made in China" becomes associated with garbage just as "Made in Japan" was in the 1960s.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 07:13:38 am
content: Quote from: amyk on January 09, 2018, 03:14:11 amBelieve me I have looked into this and managed to fix the de-humidifier externally but fixing for example the washer internally would require re-writing from scratch it's entire code and that would be after reverse engineering the hardware to derive the software interface. OK not a complicated product but probably a good few man months of effort to fix one bug! OTH the GTI is several orders of magnitude worse being a DSP based product with filters and control algorithms, re-creating that from scratch would probably take me several years! So I am sorry to only moan, I do what I can within the realms of practicality but gimmi the source code so I can modify the annoying bits and I would be in utopia

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 08:22:10 am
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on January 09, 2018, 07:13:38 amObviously you can. You are just ignoring the possibilities.You don't HAVE TO reverse the code. You can, for example, detect the sequence that happens during a spin, and disconnect the fill solenoid during a spin. There are many ways to convert white goods into something better. Just adding a leak detector and a faucet shutdown is a mod many do to an appliance.I have an Espresso Machine that I converted to full pressure and flow profiling, bluetooth connection to a scale, etc. All EXTERNAL to the main controller. The main controller did have an RS232 output which I reversed and was able to get the operating mode of the machine from. Everything else was Arduino, relays, PWM controllers and signal isolators operating independently but in sync with the original espresso equipment.You do need to figure out the timing & logic which may be difficult for a complicated device like a washing machine (espresso is very simple in comparison). So admittedly, it is only worth doing if you expect to hold on to the appliance for MANY years to come.So for those complining about the washer motor control: You can probably add a VFD controller (and wire the enable pin to the original relay). That should extend the life of the motor and drive train considerably. But is it worth adding a 200$ VFD Drive to a 300$ washer? I don't think so but everyone has different priorities....But everything is modable: I even modded the fan in the bathroom (annoying - if wired to turn on with the light - SO would complain about noise, and if it was wired to a separate switch - it was never used and the bathroom was always damp and smelly...). So I added a TDR that turns it on for 5 minutes after a human turns the light off. Now it is both fresh and quiet.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 08:37:29 am
content: One point about the logic of white goods: You may not always understand the reasoning behind different choices made the by the goods designer.Sometimes it is indeed a bug or an error.But, at least in my experience, at a later date when you find yourself sitting at a conference with a designer of such goods you end up realizing that some of the "bugs" were actually planned in to maybe extend longevity, or to allow the use of a cheaper part, or to achieve a better energy rating, or to avoid undue stress from a weaker component, etc.As humans we tend to be far too dismissive of the complexity of even the simplest of thing. A washing machine is theoretically a simple thing. But in practice, I am not so sure. I even ran into trouble replicating the simplest ever device known to man - a sink stopper! Think it is simple? think again. The first iteration actually floated away...https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1664940

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 02:37:07 pm
content: Well, though it still is a hydro-mechanical appliance and, not exactly a White Good, I loathe the moment we will be forced to be using anIoT enabled toilet bowl...Smart devices forimbecilementally challengedusers...-George

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 02:45:03 pm
content: There will be a Japanese porn site for hacked IoT enabled toilet bowl camera photos no less than 30 seconds after they are deployed.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 09:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 08, 2018, 09:34:05 amIIRC in sweden with iPhone1 apple did lost the case with self-cracking displays at winter time. Can recal what were the case with self-igniting batteries in them.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 10:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 09, 2018, 10:04:34 pmWell that sweden thing were due the iPhone were specked iirc -10degC or were it even 0 d.C and sweden is partly on arctic circle .. normal use environment so apple were judged to be responsible repair to warranty..and Ericson and Nokia had put out products over a decade without a such silly problems so they couldn't claim it is impossible in technical standpoint.But apple is not producing a white goods anymore, iMac did look like a fancy juicer

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 10:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 08, 2018, 09:37:00 pmI can attest to every aspect of this statement. I’ve got a Bosch dishwasher (actually all the appliances in this apartment are Bosch or Siemens, which are the same appliance company), and it is indeed super quiet and does a great job at washing dishes. But after a year they had to fix the door mechanism under warranty, because the puny nylon anchor for the cord that links the door to the closer spring failed. (A common failure according to the repairman.)And while the repair itself was expertly executed, they tried to bamboozle me into paying for maintenance product I didn’t ask for. They frittered up a lot of goodwill and respect I had from them, all over an $8 bottle of machine sanitizer. (The repairman took one bottle and used it to “start a test cycle” to verify proper operation, and handed me another bottle and said “use this 2 months from now”. A week later, I get a bill for $16 for two bottles of sanitizer. I call and say “sorry, I didn’t ask for it and wasn’t told it would cost money”, to which she says “OK, I’ll take off the used one and you can just pay for the second one.” Incredulous, I said “no way, I didn’t ask for it”, so she replies “then you can mail back the unused bottle”, at which point I read her the riot act about Swiss sales law, which includes that you cannot ask someone who received an unsolicited product to pay postage to return it. So in the end, they actually sent someone to come by and pick up the stupid $8 sanitizer, and I didn’t pay anything. But I’m sure that the bottle of sanitizer only cost them $4 maximum if they’re selling it for $8, so I’m sure the labor to retrieve it exceeded its actual value. So instead of saying “sorry for the confusion, please accept it for free with our compliments”, they actually spent money to piss off a customer...)Quote from: Vtile on January 09, 2018, 10:23:27 pmApple never made white goods. (“White goods” does not mean just any product that happens to be white colored.) In English, “white goods” specifically means major household appliances, because historically those were made mostly with white enameled steel housings: stoves and ovens, refrigerators, dishwashers, clothes washers and dryers, and similar large household appliances.Small appliances like toasters, mixers, blenders, and kettles are expressly not considered white goods, but are indeed actually called “small appliances”.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 11:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: Vtile on January 09, 2018, 09:55:11 pmThe first iPhone model was never sold in Sweden. Another phone or fake news.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 11:08:24 pm
content: Quote from: Vtile on January 09, 2018, 09:55:11 pmThe first iPhone model was never sold i Sweden, so it can't be that model.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2018, 11:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: Vtile on January 09, 2018, 09:55:11 pmThe first iPhone model was never sold in Sweden. Must be some other phone or broken memory.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 12:12:13 am
content: appliances are "hell on earth"We bought a house 2 years ago - and have two little kidsAbout 1 week after moving in and about 1 week before Christmas - the washing machine (old) breaks down - the cement balance wheel thing simply broke apart.Then we rush ordered a new Samsung super model (geeks...)Device One - Samsung5 days later it breaks down just in time to NOT be serviced until after New Year! (Christmas with whole family here - 14 people total - 4 smelly teenagers - 2 toddlers - no washing machine)1St repair: known fault on the machine - the internal hose rattles loose during transport - Hose replaced on site - 2 hour job2nd - 8 months later - Washing machine has WiFi (geek - but on separate WiFI Subnet/VLAN) - WiFi stops working - control board replaced. Known error ... (according to repair guy)3rd - Again just before THIS Christmas - same issue as 1st repair - Reported 1 week before Christmas - no repair people until after New Year... So I opened it up myself. Bottom exit hose fallen off. Was secured with special "Samsung" hose clamp - plus 1st engineer put zip-tie on 2nd grove - but not one zip tie - 2 tiny zip-ties - zip-tied together - like the ones you would use for AWG16-26 cable. Zip ties had just slipped apart and previous engineer had not figured out how Samsungs hose clamp actually worked and put it on the wrong way so it only had moderate pressure on the hose.I put on a real mans ziptie that fitted in the grove - outdoor marine thing meant for engine roomsI kept the maintenance appointment for January - and told the guy "Sorry but I repaired it - but you need to sign off so I do not get into trouble with future warranty. And then I showed him the pictures...... And then there was absolutely no problems signing off that THEY did the repair I had completed ..Device 2: Dishwasher - front panel failed after about 1 week. Some sensor error. Engineer came - replaced electronics - and left. Again with "typical error" - I have the board here - it looks fine - but probably a cold joint somewhere or just a loose connection. Tried selling the washing solution as well for about 3 times of what they cost in the supermarket but was politely told no thanks.Device 3: New Fridge (with a 15 year old house all white goods are failing) - Got a new fridge from same company as Dishwasher (not German/Not Asian) - it was more noisy than the dishwasher when running! Parts missing... Then they brought a replacement - but managed to "ding it" somehow in transport. So I ended up sending both back.Device 4: Got a fancy new extractor fan as the old one was incredibly noisy and did not work well. Probably a few fan blades missing.. - Bought a "slightly scratched" super-model for < 1/2 price. No scratches on that at all. But still very noisy when installed and did not work well. Then found out that extractor fan canals was NOT ducted to anywhere but my end-wall and not THROUGH the wall... We did think it was smelly cooking in there but we thought it was the fan. And of course once the extractor could get rid of the air - noise went down to very tolerable levels (for an extractor fan). So much for a British super high "quality" builder! (We then found another 2 extractor outlets that had not put through the wall either.... - but another 2 was done "right)Extractor fan btw is a German model with WiFi - Brand NEFF which is 90% the same as Bosch and Siemens. But they have changed a comma somewhere in the software so it does not work 100% with Bosch Siemens control software - moronic.The NEFF models do not support manual WiFi connection - only WPS - at least according to their support and manual. But if you follow the Bosch/Siemens manual/instructions - it works fine setting it up manually - but you can't really use it for anything unless someone hack it.I got a hint when I read the spec sheet for the similar Siemens model of extractor fan as it said "feature Y only on NEFF device" - but that is first time I have seen NEFF mentioned on Siemens website.So short - Samsung software is okay on the washing machine. Same goes for Siemens/NEFF. But UI on their App's? forget about it - terrible. A bit like Keysight/Tektronix - great (usually) firmware - terrible off device software. Even GOOD LOOKING firmware on the devices - and then the App's let it down. Either they look great and work bad - or they work great and look terrible(I do think Fluke is furthest behind right now on the software side)So yes white goods are not fun. Neither are brown goods (that is what consumer electronics products are known as in many places)So my advice - if you buy new white goods - the day of delivery - file a case that your device needs repair - because so far it has been about 70% right for us with new devices. Or do not get rid of your old device if possible until you are CERTAIN the new one works. Or at least write the phone number for the support hotline down right away.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 12:19:46 am
content: This is where it is heading:https://youtu.be/SnzzWGcdMqY

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 12:33:50 am
content: I'm trying to figure out why on earth an extractor fan would need WiFi or what possible benefit that could bring. So you can turn the fan on remotely if you realize you left something cooking when you headed out on vacation?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 01:05:01 am
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on January 08, 2018, 07:16:44 amHow else would you like it to defrost the coils?Sure they could eliminate the water evaporation portion, but how many people would want to hook up a drain to their fridge or empty it every few weeks. 99% of people wouldn't want the hassle to save <$40 in electricity per year.Quote from: Circlotron on January 08, 2018, 12:47:50 pmGet dampeners, they will help but not eliminate the problem. The machine is determining how much is the minimum amount of water it needs to add to wash your clothes properly (based on balance of the drum when it rotates somehow). If you don't care about saving a bit of water that's understandable, but the manufacturers are required to adhere to standards.https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sioux-Chief-Mini-Rester-3-4-in-x-3-4-in-FHT-x-MHT-Washing-Machine-Arrester-HD660-H/202273959

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 01:37:31 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on January 08, 2018, 12:47:50 pmModern appliances do lots of clever things to save energy. The biggest of all is to reduce the amount of water that must be heated, because the heating is the biggest energy use. Adding water little by little to match the load size, as thm_w says, is how clothes washers accomplish this.Modern dishwashers do something else really clever: when the wash phase ends, they pump the hot dirty wash water into a heat exchanger reservoir in the back wall of the wash cavity and hold it there. The fresh rinse water is drawn in and splashed around so it absorbs the heat from the dirty water, and only then is the dirty water dispatched to the drain. Saves tons of energy. The downside is longer wash times, added complexity in the machine, and the heat exchanger, whose channels are prone to collecting gunk, making regular cleaning with special machine cleaner essential.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 01:40:10 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 10, 2018, 12:33:50 amProbably because there are some hidden sensors that analyze the gasses to know exactly what you're cooking and transmit that data so they can sell it to ad agencies who try to sell you overpriced food on the internet.You do realize that alot of IOT crap is susceptable to hacking right (the bad kind)...so if it's not the companies selling your data, it's people far worse.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 01:43:23 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 10, 2018, 01:05:01 amNo, it tumbles to make sure the clothes all get wet and have soaked up water. It adds water little by little so as to reduce overfilling. The goal is for the clothes to be sopping wet, but with almost no residual water in the drum. So it tosses the clothes (so the water doesn’t drizzle off) and then checks the water level, and adds water now and then until even in motion, the water level begins to rise. Then it knows the fabrics are saturated, and begins washing.Nb: I find it incredibly relaxing to watch clothes in a front-loader. I’ve sat and watched from start to finish more times than I care to confess, lol! (The nerd in me also appreciates observing how it behaves with different cycles, load sizes, fabric types, etc.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 01:45:59 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 10, 2018, 01:05:01 amI'd be curious to try a reversing valve like the sort used in heat pumps. Periodically reverse the flow of refrigerant, pumping ambient heat into the coils to defrost them. A heat pump is ~3x as efficient as straight electric heat in terms of the amount of heat placed where you want it per kWh of electricity. The added system cost may take a long time to be recovered though.A significant challenge with the defrost cycle which applies to heat pumps too is that it is very difficult to actually detect the amount of frost present, so most systems are rather dumb and simply trigger a defrost cycle every x amount of compressor run time, then terminate the cycle when a temperature sensor on the evaporated is tripped. This obviously results in a compromise where if you are defrosting frequently enough for humid environments you are defrosting more often than necessary for dry environments.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 02:17:20 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 10, 2018, 01:45:59 amThat might not solve an (apparently common) problem that occurred with my fridge/freezer, namely that the condensate drain hole would get plugged with ice and stop draining during a defrost cycle, with the result that the defrosted water would instead overflow and flood down inside the fridge.I eventually discovered the cure was to retrofit a "hot finger" device that attaches to the defrost heater and reaches down inside the drain hole, melting any ice plug that tries to form there.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 04:02:30 am
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on January 08, 2018, 07:16:44 amThat auto-defrost cycle is your friend. The coils are in the freezer compartment, and since the unit doesn’t pump out the air in the freezer (unless it’s a very high-dollar unit!) the moisture in the air condenses on the coils. Without regular defrosting, the coils end up being covered in snow, so air cannot circulate around them. The fridge section is cooled by a fan pulling cold air from the freezer section, and if the air cannot circulate, the fridge gets warm while the freezer remains frozen.Too often, that happens and people end up with a new fridge because they don’t know how to fix this problem. If the coils are iced over, that means the defrost coil is either bad or the timer that controls it has gone bad. This is the case with my fridge ... every once in a while we notice the fridge section is too warm (I have digital thermometers with magnet backs on the side of the fridge, with probes inside both compartments), so I remove the coil cover from inside the freeze and spend twenty minutes defrosting the coils with a heat gun. At some point I’ll get a new timer for it.Oh, there was a point where the compressor wasn’t starting, so I did a bit of web searching and learned that the likely culprit was the relay that switches it on and off, driven by a timer. The test? Pull the relay out and shake it; if it rattles, it’s bad. There’s a place called Appliance Parts Depot not far from my house, so I took the relay over to them with the model number of the fridge and $20 later I had a new relay and a cold fridge.Of course, it’s the old-school Kenmore/Electrolux fridge with mechanical timers and zero microprocessors inside.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 04:40:26 am
content: I have had relatively few bugs in the "white goods" purchased over the last few years. Nothing special on brands, just middle of the road quality and price. But I have been infuriated by the "operational characteristics" forced on these goods by well intentioned people.The timer on the coffee/tea maker that turns it off after two hours. Apparently there is a rampant problem with folks leaving their pot on until it boils dry in a flammable surrounding while incurring a failure in the thermal fuse that has been part of these things for decades. And no one in the regulatory world takes more than two hours to drink 12 cups of coffee.The power regulator on lights in a ceiling fan that solves another rampant problem - fires from people who put very high power incandescent bulbs in these fixtures. Fixes a problem that could easily be fixed with a fuse and dramatically reduces the reliability of the device while significantly increasing the cost. If the problem even still exists in this world of LED bulbs and even CFLs.These are really just more examples of many of the things mentioned above. A defrost system designed to work in cold rain forest conditions which is overkill for much of the world. A washer that has been tweaked for efficiency to the point that it has lost some utility for many. Not software bugs (or hardware bugs) at all, but the result of a great deal of thought and effort headed in a different direction than the complaining end user wanted to go.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 05:51:29 am
content: I've fixed that problem twice on the 70s vintage fridge at the family cabin, both times somebody was about to replace the whole fridge, turned out the defrost timer is part of the ice maker and the whole thing was jamming up. The entire evaporator was encased in a solid block of ice, it took me several hours with a heat gun and propane torch to carefully defrost it all into several buckets worth of water.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 07:32:26 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 10, 2018, 01:40:10 amI did not buy it for the WiFibut because it was chaper than any of the other equal units. But it is used to turn on and control intensity when the hub/cooker is on. It could have been solved differentlybut they did not. I would just have put in an IR Led in the hub and receiver in the extractor. WiFi is clearly overkill....And they could monitor what I cook - as it does have sensors - so far only seen to change the speed dependent on cooking smells and cooking intensity.And yes Wifi can be abused - which is why I have them isolated on their on their own sub-net - and I do monitor their communications with deep packet inspection on that subnet. And it is easy to disable their routes if they become to aggressive.And while I would be nervous about most companies and data leakage - I’m not (too) worried about it from German companies. They tend not to be evil in that way..Samsung on the other hand... I would not trust them as far as I could throw them.But I do like I can get notifications from washer / dryer that they are done. Else I tend to forget about themand nothing worse than a wash that has been sitting for 8+ hours - the longer it sits the longer I have to iron or fight with it to get it straight’ish before hanging it out. And even more so for the dryer.But software on all of them are “baby steps” simple apart from the Samsung one.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2018, 12:11:20 pm
content: Moved tohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ces-standout-products-for-whatever-reason/to avoid diverting the thread.