EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 08:06:16 am
content: What does the CE mark on a product actually mean?How do you get one?What is it NOT?What is a Declaration Of Conformity?There might more to this mark than you realised!The FCC mark is also discussed.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 09:26:10 am
content: Im still waiting for a "battery safety" making. Some people are placing Li-ion batteries peaty much in their ears, on their faces, in their pockets (next to their reproduction parts), various holes in their bodies (e-cigarettes. Why, what did you think about?). Nobody ever asks the question, if it is safe or not.Samsung had the huge fiasco recently. I've recently witnessed someone phone die. He bumped into a traffic pole, walking, phone was in the way. No damage on the outside. Battery heats itself up (hey, at least no fire, right?) and it never charges again. There are various reports of people getting 3rd degree burns because of the batteries fires.So when are getting regulations and proper testing for this?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 02:15:06 pm
content: Looking forward to watching this one. Just the fact you attempted to tackle it, you get myI watched it and it was a good toe dip. There was a hint you may take the plunge and dive in. Looking forward to it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 02:54:42 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 29, 2017, 09:26:10 amThese have been established a long time ago: UN38.3. If a Li-ion battery pack doesn't have this approval (which requires actual testing) it won't be transported.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 03:21:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 29, 2017, 02:54:42 pmI'm aware of this. I actually had to ship Li-Ion cells (big ones, ~50Ah) overseas. It had to be done in some cancer inducing crap, self extinguishing.UN38.3 does not answer to Li-Ion battery problems built into consumer devices. Anyway, this is off topic.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 03:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 29, 2017, 02:54:42 pmlikecheap hoverboard's from China.Like to see Dave do a teardown on one.keep fire extinguisher handy.

author: mdszy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 03:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on May 29, 2017, 03:21:30 pmMy university actually banned those (in the residence halls, you could still ride them around on campus) because of the fire hazard issues!

author: elmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 06:25:42 pm
content: A way to comply without actually test the device or machine is to use the IEC norms. e.g. you would use IEC 60204 for the design of the electrical systems on a machine. By doing that you have chosen a recognized method to address (some of) the relevant requirements of the machine directive. Of course a directive may require you to follow a whole series of different norms to address all the requirements.This may not be as easy in regards to PCB design, I wouldn't know that. But in regard to machines assembled from off the shelf components this is a perfectly good way to do it, as long as the components them self is in compliance (and so on).

author: vlad777
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 08:12:39 pm
content: A question as old as life it self.http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/keep-finding-but-dont-know-meanning.109044/#post-893546I still don't get it...

author: elmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 08:43:04 pm
content: Quote from: vlad777 on May 29, 2017, 08:12:39 pmhttp://www.ul.com/marks/ul-listing-and-classification-marks/appearance-and-significance/marks-for-north-america/<- The RU mark.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 08:46:53 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 29, 2017, 03:21:10 pmWell, it should be but like any marking which is based on a small batch of samples it is not a safeguard against poor quality control.

author: Wim_L
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2017, 09:06:42 pm
content: It's not always as simple though. For some products (and this certainly applies to most consumer electronics) the manufacturer can self-certify. Mind you, the manufacturer isn't always the one who manufactures it. If the real manufacturer is outside the EU, and has no legal presence there (not all that uncommon), the importer gets redefined as manufacturer (and assumes legal responsibility).For some other things, independent certification by so-called notified bodies is needed. This is mostly for high-risk items, such as explosives, but some electronics are included too (e.g. fire alarms, medical devices). In that case, the CE mark will include a number to identify the notified body.

author: STMartin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2017, 03:14:05 am
content: I work at UL; really looking forward to what Dave has to say!

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2017, 05:40:25 am
content: The problem with pictograms is that they're cultural. Like the tortoise and hare diagram representing slow or fast presumes you know Aesop. Where I live, we don't use "wheely bins" for garbage but rather exclusively for compost. So the WEEE symbol locally translates to "Don't put this in your composter."

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2017, 02:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on May 30, 2017, 05:40:25 amThe problem with pictograms, is way Too many of them nowadays,and then add in advertising logos.you have a bewildering alphabet soup, that no one has the time to google all the definitions.

author: prof
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2017, 08:03:38 pm
content: China Export is a semi-myth. Anything sold inside the EUmustshow the real CE sign, otherwise if customs stumbles about it, it will be destroyed without further discussion and independent of whether the device has a conformity declaration or not. If the manufacturer is outside of the EU it is actually the duty of the importer/distributor to make sure the conformity declaration exists and the product is properly labelled. Now the importer/distributor would be pretty stupid to accept a shipment of a mislabelled product so it's rather unlikely what Dave said in the video about people putting the wrong logo on it by accident...But: The EU fumbled and did not properly protect the CE logo which means anyone can legally use their own variation of it to fool customers, often implying the product has a conformity declaration even though it doesn't actually need it or for counterfeit products imported by customers themselves or coming through shady side channels like Amazon warehouses, passing by customs just by dumb luck.I'd really love to see a genuine product which needs a confirmity declaration, actually has one but the manufacturer got the logo wrong... So far I haven't...

author: prof
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2017, 08:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on May 30, 2017, 05:40:25 amI challenge you to design a universally understood logo saying: "Don't throw in your regular trash".

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 02:18:00 am
content: For safety and accountability, independent testing is needed. But, as some others have noted, all the logos on products do lead to more confusion. The larger problem I see these days, is some manufacturers not bothering, saving money, and simply counterfeiting both logos, and labels. So while as a consumer, you may be led to believe any one of the logo/labels makes the product better/safer, the counterfeit ones begin to erode that confidence.

author: STMartin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 03:14:16 am
content: Quote from: prof on May 30, 2017, 08:03:38 pmAll of my HP/Agilent equipment has the "wrong" logo. The image has two 3610s, a 3620, and a 34401.The other image is a BK 8500, whose CE logo seems somewhere in the middle, and a Rigol DG1022 which seems to have the "proper" logo.Even among genuine products, as Dave would say, it's all over the shop.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 03:30:01 am
content: I always thought CE meant Cheap Exportmeaning to 'take it apart' and make sure it's safe, before switching it on.If it's a realposjob, get a refund asap.So far so good, CE works for me

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 03:36:48 am
content: Quote from: prof on May 30, 2017, 08:03:38 pmLeft, an HP power supply, right a Toshiba hard drive, both just the first things to hand, the red overlay is the official logo scaled to match the C in each (https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sites/growth/files/ce-mark.png), this is not a camera trick, in real life it's obvious that the two devices have different spacing.So yeah, depending on how close you want it, there's plenty of variation.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2017, 04:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: prof on May 30, 2017, 08:03:38 pmA company I worked for managed that. The CE mark was embedded in the plastic moulding. The first samples were OK, but we needed to correct a mistake (the C-tick mark had changed). The new mark needed a bit more room, and so the designer just squashed up the logo a bit. We ended shiping the first 1000 units with incorrect logo before we could correct it.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2017, 05:54:41 am
content: Quote from: prof on May 30, 2017, 08:12:03 pmThis is why written languages were developed. Unfortunately there are more than one, so the only answer is "Don't throw this in the trash" in all the languages you expect to reasonably communicate with. It's annoying but we are human. Tower of Babel and all.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 12:25:58 am
content: Also, self-certification is off the table for any RF devices not covered by a harmonized standard. As those are ordered by frequency and application, it is quite a tedious search. ETSI has guidace documents on this!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2017, 04:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: prof on May 30, 2017, 08:03:38 pmNo, if customs did that they'd be in the wrong. Not that that would stop German customs, who are the most officious and awkward in the universe - you'd think most of them popped out of the womb poised to immediately say "Das is nicht richtig" (Anyone who has had to deal with them will know what I mean).The point the CE mark is required is when it is first "made available for sale" within the EU. It's quite lawful to import something unmarked, re-label it, and then put it on sale (as long as itisactually conforming naturally). I have an expensive lawyer's word for that, as this is something I've been involved with in the past.If you think about it this makes sense, as parts that might be saleable on their own (say a contracted out switch mode power supply) couldn't be imported to subsequently make a complete CE labelled product with its own overall conformity process and markings. If customs had the right to immediately destroy products without a CE marking then products intended for re-export to a non-EU market couldn't transit the EU without the CE marking, which would both be facile and massively counter-productive for EU exports.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2017, 12:33:17 am
content: That was informative. I honestly thought it did mean China Export myself and that it was some kind of cert from the manufacturer basically to say "Yes it comes from China but we approve it" or something like that.It would be very interesting to see videos on other markings too, like ULC and CSA, ETL etc and maybe even go through what it takes to get a product tested through those or what can be exempt (ex: under a certain voltage). Could even be more than one video as there are different categories of markings, like some are safety, while some have other purposes.