What do you think of the new Fluke 87 V MAX? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Axtman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 01:07:50 am
content: What do you guys think about the new IP67 rated Fluke 87 V multimeter? I received a survey from Fluke a while ago so I knew they were coming out with this model. If I had a job outside I would be very interested in this meter.https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/87v-maxhttps://www.fluke-direct.com/pdfs/cache/www.fluke-direct.com/87v-max/datasheet/87v-max-datasheet.pdf

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 01:11:40 am
content: Just a rebadged Fluke 27II/Fluke 28 II.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 01:16:16 am
content: It might, likely?, have an internal revised pcb/layout/components, since the last Fluke 28II rev?Someone was selling Fluke 27 II for $100 Canadian a few years ago.

author: Per Hansson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 05:38:24 am
content: I compared the specs yesterday and it seemed identical to the 28-IILiterally the only difference was the increase in drop test height from 3m to 4m.Diode test is still limited to 2v, surely they could have revised this.And the meter also does not have dual input impedance:Surely that would be a very useful feature for the market they are aiming this meter for?Don't get me wrong: I do have a 28-II but seeing this rebranded without any changes after so many years seems strange to me.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 05:57:48 am
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on November 04, 2019, 05:38:24 amI didn't do that so it's possible there are improvements and changes and given the timeframe of the introduction of the 28II.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 06:45:00 am
content: Does it have any new features over the 87V?I recently bought the 87V+i410 promo kit for €500 for work, I thought that was a nice deal.Are they retiring the 87V?

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 06:57:18 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on November 04, 2019, 06:45:00 amNaaa, looks like they are retiring the 28II instead. This is the PCB of the 28II so I expect it to be like the 87V Max (Photos from Dave's video on the 28II)No coating, looks like its by the video screws with o-rings plus o-ring on the battery cover, big plastic cover on the bottom of the PCB , a big ridge around the case that creates a lip where both top and bottom case meet with an o-ring for seal, so basically all the water ingress is by the use of o-rings and compression of them and isolation from the PCB and front cover. So the Input Jacks don't come connected to the PCB, they stay on the cover. Correction of photos and extra explanation.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2019, 10:24:52 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on November 04, 2019, 06:45:00 am"Double the battery life of the 87V (up to 800 hours); backlit keys for dark environments"It's also ruggedized, etc.It's not much more expensive than the ordinary 87V, it looks like it's going to replace/unify the 28 and 87 models.

author: Marco1971
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 01:52:16 pm
content: Hi all, images above belong to FLUKE 28 II Ex preproduction not plain/standard 28 II.http://www.mjlorton.com/forum/index.php?topic=150.0Marco1971

author: Arhigos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 02:09:17 pm
content: fluke 87v max is same as fluke 28-2 (even same pcb, if you open 87v max you will see pcb from 28-iiOnly one difference (except display mask and firmware) is that 87-v max doesnt have msha certification.Black Phoenix, you posted pictures from 28-ex meter. and that coating is not a protection from water, it's protection from fire, even if you burn your meter it will not make any sparkle (if you working in explosive hazardous area)

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 02:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: Arhigos on November 10, 2019, 02:09:17 pmQuote from: Marco1971 on November 10, 2019, 01:52:16 pmThank you for the info then. I just checked the Dave's video and he had photos from it.Plus extra promotional video:I corrected the post above with the right photos. But I keep what I said, the 28II is going to be phase out in reliance of this one. And expect the 87V Max Ex version in the future to phase out the 28II Ex. Plus going by this old ad in a promotional document:https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/3821028_0000_ENG_A_W.PDFFirst they promote the 27II/28II as the 83V/87V but with a IP67 rating and now release the 87V Max that is exactly like the 28II but with extra battery life?Ahh and keyboard that light up...No more ideas? Yes I know that the 87V is basically a mark in the market, a good no frills just works DMM but can please innovate a little more?

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 07:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on November 04, 2019, 05:38:24 amThis, and maybe people were a bit rough on the 28-II in terms of holding it to that 3m spec. Fluke's "lifetime" warranty seems to refer to the lifetime of the model run, not the actual lifetime of the meter (or owner). So phasing out the 28-II makes sense if Fluke are getting them back beaten to a pulp, as does rebadging/repackaging the same meter with new robustness claims (cited) and actual improvements in robustness (not so apparent).As for those who are on the fence about buying a new 87V, this could be a smart move for Fluke in terms of marketing. Consumers might be more likely to invest in an "improved" 87V (more well-known model) but wouldn't be interested in the 28II (less recognition of the 27/28 series). It comes down to the retail market vs the military contracts, especially if it really is the same meter. Soldiers are likely to be much rougher on govt-issued equipment than the mall ninjas measuring batteries in their basements with an 'indestructible', expensive meter which remains safely far from industrial high voltage (or the battlefield).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 08:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: Johnboy on November 10, 2019, 07:39:08 pmYep. 100%.I bet all the Youtube bloggers have already ordered theirs just so they can make their"Unboxing the new Fluke 87V MAX"videos.Me? I'd definitely get one just to be able to say, "Yes, bitI'vegot theMAXversion.."(in fact this is the first time in my life I've ever been tempted to get a Fluke 87V)

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 10:52:07 pm
content: I have a 87V and a 28II, I seldom use the 28II because I much prefer the smaller form factor of the 87V. If the current 87V is discontinued in favor of the 87V MAX it would be a shame.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 11:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on November 10, 2019, 10:52:07 pm??According to the Fluke web site there's only 2mm difference.87V: 201 x 98 x 52 mm28II: 198 x 100 x 63 mm(Ok, it's thicker....)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 11:24:04 pm
content: I briefly had a 87V, I sent it back after a couple of days though, partly because I discovered a defect and partly because I found that the current ranges default to AC Every Single Time. Move from A to mA and it's back on AC *again*. It's such a boneheaded design because almost always if I'm measuring AC current I'm using a clamp so the meter is on ACV.I went back to my old 87 III, it lacks the diode test beep which is annoying but the current defaults to DC. It also has a higher quality feel that is hard to put a finger on. The plastic just feels tougher, the V had that sort of harder cheaper feel to it and the buttons are harder plastic rather than soft rubber like the III.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 11:48:45 pm
content: I had the 87v for a couple of months. I used it half a dozen times at most! I just didn't like it. It was one of the first to go when I decided to thin my collection out. I got it new at a great price but just couldn't take to it.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2019, 11:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 10, 2019, 11:03:18 pmIn the holster it is ~5mm wider, ~18mm taller, ~20mm thicker and noticeably heavier. In the hand the 28II feels like a big meter compared to the 87V.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 12:00:22 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 10, 2019, 11:24:04 pmYep, and this is one of the reasons I'll never buy one. It would annoy me intensely. There's absolutely no reason why it can't simply remember the last setting for each range like other brands do.Of course there's people who'll say "I want it to be in a known state every time I power it on, dammit!" but, (a) It would always be in thewrongstate (for me), and (b) This is 2019, behaviors like that it could be user-selectable options.("But whenever I borrowsomebody else'smeter I want it to be just like mine, dammit!")

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 12:04:46 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on November 10, 2019, 11:53:42 pmThe measurements I posted were "with holster" according to the Fluke web site.FWIW The web site says the MAX is "215 x 101 x 60 mm (with holster)" which would make it the biggest of the three.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 12:28:05 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 11, 2019, 12:04:46 amI'm was not looking at the DS as I have the two meters sitting next to each other at the moment. The numbers I gave you are quick and dirty (imprecise approximation) but they are close enough....

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 09:36:02 am
content: Quote from: Johnboy on November 10, 2019, 07:39:08 pmThis gave me a laugh; it describes me perfectly! ThanksI have a Keysight U1242C on the way - purchased 'used' from eBay from the Keysight store which is a recommended place to buy from except that it always takes them a week to get stuff in the mail - maybe that's because their main warehouse is on the moon? I got the U1242C for just $217 and it has stand-alone logging capability of 2,000 measurements (vs the U1242B's near-useless 200) but the U1242C is similar to the the Fluke 87 V Max including the IP67 rating which I suppose it would be good if my basement floodedI had been trying to buy a Fluke 289 but, after a scammer eBay seller took my money and never sent the item (if there ever was an item) and I had to wait for PayPal to get refunded nearly 3 weeks later, and then I kept losing bids on scratched up or grimy-looking stuff, I gave up. On reflection, the U1242C looks like it will do all I want plus the free logger software (for PC & smartphone) works well.

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 03:20:30 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on November 11, 2019, 09:36:02 amI was actually referring to myself!Most of my gear, including the audio stuff, is overkill considering what I actually do with it. As for test equipment... sigh. I find myself lurking around that TEA thread, and them's dangerous waters. I've made a lot of efforts to strip down and streamline when it comes to my own test bench, with admittedly mixed results, but this meter would be a wasteful expenditure for me. I don't jump out of planes very often anymore.I see this as a makeover of the already-presumed-tough 87V into the MAX pre-Buster-Douglas Mike Tyson of the multimeter circuit (awful simile, I know). They're aware of Brymen and others offering meters with advanced specs at a lower price point, so it makes sense that they would take their product in the direction of improved safety/reliability assurances rather than in the direction of feature additions/programmability.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 07:24:02 pm
content: MAX.... hmmm, as in "has parts at the wrong position and a software to compensate for it sometimes going crazy" MAX? *SCNR*

author: notfaded1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 08:15:21 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 10, 2019, 11:24:04 pmI even found a new 87III on ebay still had the plastic on the screen even... someone must have bought it and never used it at all. It's mint.Bill

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 10:16:31 pm
content: I wonder who need an IP rated multi-meter? 87V max, 28 II whatever...If its raining heavily I would never open an electric cabinet to measure anything.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 10:39:47 pm
content: It could be handy for cleaning it off. Industrisl equipment is notoriously gross and dirty, same with working on cars. Sometimes too one has to work under less than ideal conditions, I've had to troubleshoot equipment like heat pumps when it's pissing down rain. The weather doesn't care about your safety, sometimes you gotta get the job done.

author: AJ3G
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 01:03:15 am
content: Quote from: rvalente on November 11, 2019, 10:16:31 pmI bought an IP67 rated meter because I use it in a marine environment. It’s bulky, but my hope is it will last longer than the other meters I have used for the task.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 01:58:20 am
content: I bought an IP67 rated meter in case I get a puddle in my basement

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 06:15:07 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 11, 2019, 10:39:47 pmOther place were I can see the use of a IP67 is not only water ingress but extreme temperature changes, like thermal shock creating condensation. Probably the best DMM to use in Antarctica or in very cold climates.https://www.fluke.com/en/learn/blog/digital-multimeters/antarcticaAlthough since is air tight, condensation could happen when the saturation conditions are achieve, since there isn't any exchange between the outside and inside air.So probably now that I'm thinking I'm wrong right?

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 10:10:13 am
content: So you dont need ip67, just weather sealing. Since there is none available, you went with ip rating. Fair enough

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 10:11:57 am
content: But i care about my safety. No stop machine or process ir more valuable them my life. Im many of my customers, since im a contractors, no outdoors activities are allowed if it's raining

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 10:19:32 am
content: Specifically for Antartica, LCDs will not be viable. Power-hungry though they may be, OLEDs work just fine in very low temperatures. Keysight makes several multimeters that come in OLED flavors.

author: WhichEnt2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 10:22:33 am
content: Quote from: rvalente on November 11, 2019, 10:16:31 pmEven if it's low power safe-to-work-in-water 12V(or so) automation stuff?

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 11:18:50 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on November 12, 2019, 10:19:32 amWell by that use case I posted that is available on the Fluke Website, I see a 189 and it looks like a 179 in the second photo being used in temperatures around -32oC.[Offtopic} I wouldn't mind that kind of scientific job in Antarctica to be sincere. Being able to live in a place where not a lot lived plus at the same time do experiments and find things that could help the rest of the world.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 11:41:14 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 12, 2019, 11:18:50 amYou haven't been keeping up with the Ancient Aliens series; there are alien cities complete with pyramids hidden under the ice.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 01:17:18 pm
content: Usually outside cabinets wont have only 24v systems.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 05:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: Axtman on November 04, 2019, 01:07:50 amI think that Fluke is fluffing up an old design meter, making it in China and passing it off as a premium successor to their 'flagship' USA-made 87V. It sounds very profitable.

author: AJ3G
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 08:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on November 12, 2019, 05:18:26 pmAfter some review, I would agree. Although, the Keysight U1282A I have (Also IP67 Rated) appears to have some sort of firmware problem, so your choices are limited if you need this rating in a multimeter..

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 12:37:26 am
content: Quote from: rvalente on November 11, 2019, 10:16:31 pmThat’s a dumb statement if ever I heard one...Quote from: rvalente on November 11, 2019, 10:16:31 pm1. You do realize that it could be wet EN ROUTE to the box, but not in it? Or just so that if you drop it INTO water, it won’t immediately die.2. You do realize that an IP rating (“ingress protection”) isn’t just about waterproofing? The first number in the IP rating is its dustproofing. Factories are often dirty places. Or you might be outdoors in a dust storm. Neither of those is wet, but you damned well don’t want conductive metal dust getting into a meter, nor even just ordinary sand that could get into switch contacts.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 12:40:40 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on November 12, 2019, 05:18:26 pmWhat are you talking about? The 28 II was also made in USA. There is zero reason to assume the 87 V Max is made in China.Not to mention that it is a newer design than the 87V.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 02:26:14 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on November 12, 2019, 05:18:26 pmI think it's a minimal revamp of an old cash cow 30+years old. Danaher/Fortive can charge the extra $70 for the IP67 and leds. A drop test on the front face will kill it, and OSHA forbids most measurements in the rain, clashing with the marketing photos. Nobody wants a fatter multimeter. They have an entire industrial electrical DMM line to add to the confusion here.I really dislike mega-conglomerates buying up legends such as Fluke, Tektronix and then mismanaging them to death.They cannot innovate or make anything new, other than priority one - return value to the shareholders. Look at Fortive and Danahrer stocks for that story.I've used 87's at below -20°C and instantly the test leads(TL75 PVC)get hard and brittle, then the LCD freezes up, then the alkaline batteries get cold and voltage plummets. By then I'm usually frozen though. PVC test leads shatter when they get cold, that's a hazard. Does this meter come with silicone test leads? Could find nothing in the product docs. I guess it's a low temp fluid LCD now, so display contrast might suck unless they added a boost converter.We've already had the flame wars over Made in/Product of/Assembled in.... The build quality still looks very good, it is a $500 multimeter after all.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 03:16:39 am
content: QuoteThe "Product Details" page at TEquipment identifies the country of origin as China. We haven't seen one yet so AFAIK nobody has had a chance to read the box, but TEquipment correctly identifies the country of origin for other products that I checked. I guess we'll see.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 03:33:28 am
content: One of the main reasons I've been willing to pay the premium for Fluke is that I could get one made here in the USA just a few miles from where I live. If I'm gonna buy a Chinese made meter I'll just by one of the less expensive brands. It saddens me when companies take this route of coasting along on reputation. Happened to Tek already.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 03:47:39 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 13, 2019, 02:26:14 amThat I agree, when I bought the 87V I was expecting leads like the ones that come originally with the 287/289, the silicone TL71 or even the newer TL175. I was nor expecting for the equipment it is to come with so bad leads as they are. They are stiff, too small and not that ergonomic. Yes they do the job but come on, I understand in a low budget less that US$150 DMM that kind of leads, not in a US$350+ DMM.Quote from: james_s on November 13, 2019, 03:33:28 amA lot of things are made in China, it depends how much you want to pay to manufacture. Pay the minimum, sh#t quality, pay the most, best quality. Foxconn makes iPhones, Motherboards, PCBs for different applications (NSN Blade MGW and MSS were all fitted with Foxconn made PCBs to name a few and their quality is excellent in terms of finish) and their factories are mainly in China.The sign "Made In" currently is just a status quo brand. Fluke is one of them, "Made In US"... No let me correct you: "Design and Assembled in US with parts manufactured around the world".Most of our high end equipments that we use are manufactured in China or contains most parts that were manufactured in China. No way to go around, so can we please stop?Again puttingMade In China - Bad Qualityis not the right thing, What people should do is make companies responsible for they wanting to pay less and less for manufacturing quality, making their parts break early and easily. And no I don't want to turn this topic into another political China Vs the West thought. It's just each and every time this comes to shore there are the ones who start the same thing over and over again. Can we please focus in why Fluke released the equipment and why it is what it is instead of were it was manufactured and that his quality is bad because it was manufactured there? We don't know yet, the meter was released this month, there aren't a lot of reviews yet (if there is any). And I don't see Fluke just basically murdering their renowned 87V.You have a lot of year of work to get into good grace of consumers, but that good grace is lost in the most easy and fast mistake you make.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 06:37:21 am
content: I never said made in China was bad quality, I said I'm willing to pay a premium to buy something made here in my own country, employing my fellow citizens. Even if it's the same quality as anything else I don't mind paying more for something so people can make a decent wage building it. If it's going to be built elsewhere I may as well just buy a cheaper brand, I'm not paying a premium just so a handful of execs can get a bigger bonus.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 08:50:37 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 13, 2019, 02:26:14 amIt's a clever move from a marketing viewpoint.I'm guessing not many people were buying the 28II - why would you if you're only going to use it indoors on a workbench?By renaming it "87VMAX" they're going to sell an awful lot more of them even though it's the exact same meter with a bit more rubber. The pointy haired bosses will sign off on one of those without asking questions so long as it still says "87V" in the name.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 09:05:09 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 13, 2019, 08:50:37 amYes very smart indeed.Although but for years Fluke had the 20s series as the rugged version of their DMM, the thing that you could throw on the concrete and make an hole on it.Being the 27II/28II the next iteration that even had the Ex version released. What I see is the following (although both models are still present in Fluke Website) - The 27II/28II Line will be discontinued and will disappear from the website given their own time, and by that Fluke now have the old workhorse that knows a few new tricks- Fluke 87V Industrial TrueRMS;- Fluke 87V Max Rugged TrueRMS;and probably in the future:- Fluke 87V Max Ex Rugged for use in explosive atmospheres.Same as the 70 series were replaced by the 170 series.Fluke is starting to look a lot like Intel, until a competitor does the same or better, with the same quality, more functions but for way less, they have the monopoly and there is no need to leap frog, just small tiny steps.Same as Fluke Networks and their DSX-5000 CableAnalyzer - They are typically used by dedicated network cabling install companies to certify that the cabling they install meets industry standards, which is required by the cabling manufactures in order to issue the (often lifetime) warranty on the cable. There are other brands as the IDEAL LanTEK III & FiberTEK III Cable Certifiers but most of the companies use the Fluke.Still I'm curious to see inside of the 87V Max to see if its really a total rebrand and killing of a line, or if there are anything more that changes. There are a lot more thing they could do to improve the old design and performance. Heck bring back the 187/189 without logging but call it 87V Pro or whatever.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 09:44:35 am
content: Yes, the branding could go the way of the Pentium.Intel started with 86... 286 ... 386 ... 486 ... Pentium.Then it went "Pentium II... Pentium Pro..." etcFluke could easily go "87V ... 87 MAX ... 87 Pro" and no bosses would ask why all their meters suddenly cost $200 extra - it's still an 87V, they've been buying them for years.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 09:52:43 am
content: But why do I worry really?I'm super happy with my 87V and I don't pretend to sell it. I have a 289, although If I had the chance to exchange it for a 189 in the same condition as mine, pristine basically new I would probably without bat an eye do it. I have the 54II that I pretend to repair after the accident it had, but parts are hard to get by at normal prices and want to buy the 225C Scopemeter because I used one extensively while working in the telecom industry so I got a linking on it. That would basically be all my to do list before I'm to old to enjoy them.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 10:07:02 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 13, 2019, 02:26:14 amUmm, the docs all prominently state that it comes with the TL175 test leads, which are silicone.Also, they already showed people using the 28II in Antarctica years ago. I doubt they had to change anything in the LCD.Quote from: bdunham7 on November 13, 2019, 03:16:39 amGiven that the 28II and 87V are made in USA, it’s unlikely the 87V Max will be made in China. My guess is that somebody copied the database entry for one of the cheap Fluke meters that is made in China, and hasn’t updated it, pending inspection of an actual unit.Quote from: Fungus on November 13, 2019, 08:50:37 amAfter the 737 MAX fiasco, I’m surprised they didn’t choose a different name. Why not simply 87VI? (Or do they finally have a bona fide 87VI in the works?)

author: Marco1971
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 11:17:33 am
content: Hi all, possibly a better battery compartment in this "new model"...Better than the standard one in FLUKE 28II (in my beloved one too)...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/fluke-28ii-battery-compartment-bulge-normal/Marco1971

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 06:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 13, 2019, 09:52:43 amBecause the biggest name brands in the multimeter scene has stopped doing any R&D?That they're still making the same meter they've been making for the last (mumble) years?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 07:03:40 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 13, 2019, 10:07:02 am87-V MAX User Manual, Safety Information- no mention of the test leads beyond:"Test Leads 1 (set of 2) *variable - Seewww.fluke.comfor more information about test leads and alligator clips available for your region."Website 87V-MAX and Datasheet says it comes with TL175 silicon leads, TL175 datasheet:DO NOT IMMERSE in liquid.DO NOT USE in wet or damp locations.oopsTemperature is a nothing burger, it's lost a bit:87V MAX "Operating Temperature -15°C to +55°C, to -40°C for up to 20 minutes when taken from +20°C"87V "Operating Temperature -20°C to +55°C"28 II "Operating Temperature -15°C to +55°C, to -40°C for up to 20 minutes when taken from +20°C"

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 12:01:48 am
content: It’s possible that in Europe, they come with the TL175E test leads, which are simply the TL175 bundled with lantern tip adapters to let them securely plug into round-pin AC outlets.I’m sure lawyers ensure the warnings you’re mocking.As for temp... same as 28II, which allows excursions to lower temps than the 87V. Again, no change from the 28II. It really does look as though they changed absolutely nothing, other than perhaps gluing down some components to improve the drop rating.

author: wnorcott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 01:23:13 am
content: The branding seems to water down the Fluke 87V which I have and is a fantastic meter, of course they are pricey. It just seems weird to rename a lesser meter and call it "Fluke 87V MAX". It just causes chaos and confusion in my mind. It just reminds me of the Ford Mustang II that was really just a rebadged Ford Pinto, and we all know how the Ford Pinto turned out. Fluke really has to be careful about damaging their own brand reputation with a bad model name.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 01:49:16 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 13, 2019, 06:44:26 pmYes and then we see releases of products like the NanoVNA at the price is released and the same companies still don't react with products around the same price with the same or more functions, taking ideas from their own portfolio. No let's just release the same DMM that we been manufacturing for the last 15 years (the Fluke 87V was released in May 2004 that was the sucessor of the 87III that was the sucessor of the 87 released in 1996) but as if it had gone into a Gym to get bulky.Let's release a DMM with a Thermal Camera, when you can buy a better DMM and a better Thermal Camera for the same price (Talking about the Fluke 279 FC True-rms Thermal Multimeter that costs US$999. For that price I can buy a Fluke 87V and a Flir TG267 or a FLIR One Pro LT and still have money for a dinner).Quote from: tooki on November 14, 2019, 12:01:48 amFor the DMM that it is and the use is going to have it should come with the TL224 SureGrip Right Angle to Straight leads, the TP175 Tips (same as the TL175 but removable) and the Fluke AC285 SureGrip Alligator Clips. Then we have a deal.Quote from: wnorcott on November 14, 2019, 01:23:13 amI don't see how is a water down, when the DMM is exactly the same as the 87V plus the IP67 of the 28II, that by itself was the the 87V but with IP67 (see the problem? Fluke already had a 87V with IP67 called 28II).The only change is the name, an extra battery life, different leads and probably some internal changes that we still don't know because there aren't any teardowns or reviews available online yet.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 02:20:56 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 13, 2019, 10:07:02 amFor folks that want to say there are 87Vs made in China, check the long thread below.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 07:06:09 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 14, 2019, 02:20:56 amPlease no, that thread gone to sh#t way faster than I was expecting...

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 09:30:44 am
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on November 04, 2019, 05:38:24 amThat's a total deal breaker for me. There are going to be a lot of people being caught out by this.The diode test range must supply 1mA of constant current and read up to 3V just like the 87V.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 03:26:15 pm
content: Quote from: wnorcott on November 14, 2019, 01:23:13 amBut the 28II was never a lower end meter. It actually is usually more expensive than the 87V. Other than the diode test voltage, the 28II has always been an improved, ruggedized version of the 87V.What I find odd is why they even bothered to rename it. Dunno what was wrong with the 28II. Well, I guess I know now: some people mistakenly thought it was lower-end. (Not that higher numbers correlate to better models anyway. The 110 series and the predecessor 10 series are entry level meters.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 03:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 14, 2019, 01:49:16 amUmmm... they have the electricians kit version of it which comes with modular leads:https://www.tequipment.net/Fluke/87V-MAX/E2-KIT/To complain that the regular version doesn’t have modular leads is silly.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 03:52:43 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 14, 2019, 03:33:11 pmMy mistake then, I didn't saw that kit version on the Fluke website. So I will withdraw what I previously said.

author: bc888
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 06:42:46 pm
content: The other reason for a new model is that when they cease making an old version they will save $ repairing the old models for free which are no longer produced. The Fluke "Lifetime" guarantee has an end clock which starts ticking when productions stops. (below)"Industrial products limited Lifetime WarrantyLifetime is defined as seven years after Fluke discontinues manufacturing the product, but the warranty period shall be at least ten years from date of purchase. *(Lifetime Warranty applies to products manufactured after October 1996). The warranty does not cover manuals, fuses, disposable batteries, damage from neglect, misuse, contamination, alteration, accident or abnormal conditions of operation or handling, including failures caused by use outside of the product's specifications, or normal wear and tear of mechanical components. This warranty covers the original purchaser only and is not transferable. This warranty covers the LCD for 10 years only (state-of-the-art for LCDs). To establish original ownership proof of purchase is required (20, 70, 80, 170, 180 and 280 models). THE FOLLOWING PRODUCTS ARE INTENDED FOR SALE AND USE IN THE CHINESE AND HIGH GROWTH MARKETS ONLY AND AVAILABLE FOR WARRANTY PROTECTION ONLY IF SOLD, PURCHASED AND USED SOLELY FROM AN AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTOR WITHIN THESE TERRITORIES: 101, 106, 107, 15B+, 17B+ and 18B+. THE WARRANTY FOR THESE PRODUCTS IS VOID IF THE PRODUCT IS SOLD, PURCHASED OR USED OUTSIDE OF THESE TERRITORIES, OR FROM UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS AND NO WARRANTY COVERAGE, SERVICE, REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT WILL BE PROVIDED."

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 07:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: xavier60 on November 14, 2019, 09:30:44 amMe too, thanks for the warning!There'sno wayI'd spend that much on a meter that can't light up an LED. Nu uh.Quote from: xavier60 on November 14, 2019, 09:30:44 amYep.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 10:23:31 pm
content: Datasheet compare shows diode-test and ohms source is different. The MAX must have new silicon.87V <3.9V out, 3.000V displayed vs 87V MAX <2.8V out 2.200V displayed

author: Per Hansson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2019, 01:21:58 pm
content: No it is just identical to the 28-II that has the exact same specifications.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 06:56:12 am
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on November 16, 2019, 01:21:58 pmFluke marketing team on the turps, again ?or their bosses working on 'there's one born every minute' principle ?all this excitement about a revamp, and no freaking LOW-Z feature to be seen,3k resistors must be unobtanium in 2019..

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 08:34:07 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on November 17, 2019, 06:56:12 amWhat a release...The more I see the more I agree with this (pinned comment on joe smith Fluke 87V Robustness Tests, Part I):Quote from: robber576So instead of updating, lets rebrand something that WE already manufacture and go with this:Quote from: Fungus on November 13, 2019, 09:44:35 am

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 10:34:28 am
content: Right around the time this thread started, I was trying to pick up a Fluke 289 so that I could get the stand-alone data logging (the 289 has 10,000+ reading storage) but the prices, even for used stuff were too high for me so I ended up buying a Keysight U1242C which meets my needs but I now realize is clearly a closer competitor with the Fluke 87 V Max. The Keysight doesn't have quite as high an accuracy on the spec sheet but can capture at 5 or 40 SPS but the Fluke looks like 4 SPS only. The Fluke also seems to default to 6000 count mode by default with 19999 only being available in optional HiRes mode which isn't available for some modes. The Keysight only has half the battery life (400 hrs) but features remote capture to a PC using an optional $37 IR-USB cable or on an iPhone using a $100 Bluetooth adapter (U1117A). I put together a quick comparison table (see below).I plan to do a mini-review on the U1242C, There's a typo in the table, the Fluke only goes up to 50 Meg Ohm on resistance, not 500

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 11:36:56 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 17, 2019, 08:34:07 amLooks like Fluke wants to be the next Tektronics.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 11:52:23 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 17, 2019, 11:36:56 amWell, Tektronicx is part of Fortive, that also owns Fluke Corporation, so we must say that they're family...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortive

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 01:12:34 pm
content: OTOH this is a good thing. At least we know we'll have a consistent baseline to use when comparing other meters against each other.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 01:20:35 pm
content: Yep. The feature nuts don’t understand that the value in Fluke isn’t advanced features, it’s dependability and long term interchangeability. Many industrial and military applications have defined, nearly etched in stone procedures that are certified only with specific instruments. Those customers do not want added bells and whistles, they want absolute certainty that the instrument will produce the same output as when the procedure was developed decades ago. (That’s why fluke still sells the 27 II, a non-TRMS meter, since changing to TRMS would require changing nominal values if the signal is not a flawless sine wave.)

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 02:00:50 pm
content: Better Hi Res performance and decent diode test specs shouldn't interfere with established operating procedures.1 µV resolution would be very useful to me.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 02:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: xavier60 on November 17, 2019, 02:00:50 pmFor that you have the 287/289 (talking about the 1 µV resolution).Let's be sincere, I've been bitchin# about the 87V MAX buttookiis totally right in his comment, the 87V is a established equipment in the Industrial and Military fields, with certifications. They want the equipment to work, it doesn't matter if it is able to dance or spit on the floor. And asking for a change of methodology is asking for a lot of bureaucracy and hitting with the head in the wall. Just because we enthusiasts want more and more and more at the same price point or less, other don't care about that, they just care things work as they should.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 03:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 17, 2019, 08:34:07 amI'll be very honest... If it is a market leader, why change it? Surely Fluke tried when released the 87IV (which became 187/189). I certainly wouldn't and no sane product manager would either. The shifts in the government contracts move at a glacial pace. Also, the 28 eats market away from the 87V.For us enthusiasts, it is certainly upsetting to see how the lack of true innovation comes from their handheld business, however, from all the statements above on the quoted post, IMHO the only one that I see as a true issue is the need to crack the seal to replace a fuse.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 04:49:14 pm
content: I much prefer the 9V battery with a wired snap over AAs in a molded holder. AAs leak, I've had SO many things messed up by leaking AAs, often while they were still working to power the device. The leaks corrode the plating off contacts and the thing is never the same again. 9V batteries rarely leak since they have an extra housing. The wired snap is easily replaceable if it does get damaged. I remember we had a Fluke at a former job that used 4 AA batteries and wondered why they went to that, I would not buy one.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 05:07:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 17, 2019, 04:49:14 pmYep. I don't get the hate. The only thing I've heard against them is they're "harder to find in a pinch" but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason for all the hate. If you're likely to ever be in a pinch then get some spares.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 05:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 17, 2019, 05:07:33 pm+1 here. I have lost too many things to leakage. Just look at an entire aftermarket of spare battery contacts for the 18x/28x, for example.The one thing is that 9V used to have a very high price in my home country.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 12:44:38 am
content: Fortive shouldn't have kept the old model number with a different circuit.It's still confusing, I'd expect the same readings from an 87V in the lab verses an 87V MAX in the field- which is not the case now.Out in the field your ohms-source and diode-test voltage/current are critical performing tests in the midst of oxidized, corroded, wet connections, big semi's IGBT's etc.I have 30 year old DMM that is water and dust proof. So I think this 87V MAX is a nothing burger, would not buy.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 12:38:37 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 17, 2019, 02:42:23 pmI started getting excited about the 289. When I saw the battery specs, my excitement went soft.I have witnessed AA and AAA cells leak, even while partly discharged. The problem also applies to expensive premium branded cells.Even if the problem has been fixed now, the trust is gone.Since I have gotten in the habit of turning off my 87V's, a battery lasts about 5 months.I use reasonably priced Varta alkaline 9V batteries from Bunnings,https://www.bunnings.com.au/varta-9v-alkaline-batteries-2-pack_p4410245I recently bought a BM857S-WB for when I need 1 µV resolution. The 87V remains as my go-to-first DMM.BTW:https://www.fluke-direct.com/product/fluke-87-5-industrial-multimeter

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 05:55:02 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on November 19, 2019, 12:38:37 amUS$43 of discount. It can be a normal sale. But it can also mean that the 87V is no more. Although if the discount were above US$100 I would point more to the second option.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 06:05:03 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 19, 2019, 05:55:02 amLuckily, Fluke products last so long, a new 87V bought now will likely last the rest of my useful life.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 06:51:34 am
content: I still keep my Idea that they are going to keep the87Vplus the new87V MAXand in the future release the87 MAX Exand kill the28II.They are still reasons to keep the 87V around without the extra ruggedness that the MAX version provides, even if it is only price alone.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 07:03:05 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 19, 2019, 06:51:34 amIt can test LEDs.

author: pjones
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 08:56:25 am
content: As others have said as well, I suspect the only reason they are introducing the 28II with a new name is so they can put an end point on the warranty of the 28II series as I suspect they phase it out. The specs make it look like it's identical to the 28II circuitry and functions (not the 87V like they claim) but with a newly designed case to provide a little more drop protection.If its identical to the 28II wouldn't it be logical to make it the 28II Max, or the 28III?I have reached out to them but they haven't responded to my questions, and at this point, its been a week or more, I'm skeptical I will get a reply.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 09:01:38 am
content: Quote from: pjones on November 19, 2019, 08:56:25 amOnly to an engineer.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 09:40:11 am
content: and another load of Fluke 871V/891V/189 model styled buyer confusion..Anyways, good news for meI just need to source a"87 V MAX"sticker from somewhere,slap it on the 28-11and good to go for another 10 years with the latest Flukeyand still use different meters for diode/led checks and Low-Z..-----------------Giggles:Key featuresWithstands drops up to 4-meters (13 feet) with industrial strength casing and holster40 meters/130 feet if dropped at nominated DJ locationsWaterproof, dustproof IP67 case for the most extreme work sitesunless it's a real 'extreme' work site with clumsy dumbass nogas tradies that handle it like a football and compressor/generator wheel chock,thinking the meter is faulty just because it keeps beeping with the leads in the current position, during a voltage check in Continuity modePremium TL175 TwistGuard™ test leadsYes please!Double the battery life of the 87V (up to 800 hours); backlit keys for dark environmentsTriple the battery leakage risk = a slow miserable demise of the PCB

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 12:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on November 19, 2019, 09:40:11 amBruh.... that’s not how Roman numerals work. They’re capital i’s, not 1’s. Especially not when mixing Roman and Arabic numerals...

author: notfaded1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 02:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 19, 2019, 12:12:55 pmLol I was also wondering about those model numbers... I've still got my 87III going strong. I don't see any reason to change.Bill

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 02:18:35 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 19, 2019, 12:12:55 pmTooki... You should know by now how Electro Detective works... It's11Image Credits

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 03:09:54 pm
content: Quote from: pjones on November 19, 2019, 08:56:25 amEssentially rebadging a model and weaseling out of you promises isn't very classy. Some software developers with "life long support" use the same trick but those don't heavily depend on their reputation.

author: WhichEnt2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 03:21:58 pm
content: Would like to see what should be called "87 MAX +" in another iteration.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 05:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 19, 2019, 03:09:54 pmI agree. From another angle, there is always a possibility the BOM of the 87V became uninteresting (a device went LTB or too high priced, for example) and they plan to consolidate the two lines.At any rate, it seems there is some chicanery:Fluke's pagedisables the 87V MAX comparison checkbox. Oversight?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 10:10:57 pm
content: Here's theNot Made In Rome Fluke 28-II/28 11/28-ii/28!!/28 Round#2/28-2 RELOADEDFluke 87V MAXYoutube video > youtube.com/watch?v=iInW6CL3RFEafaict they aren't really 'roughing it', in fact any decent meter in a zipped lunch bag might handle those 'extremes' just as well.Perhaps the cash strapped film crew with the sweaty muddied tradie actors only had one28-MAX/87FATBOYmeter to work with?Better value to fly in and tradie dressup EEVblog host DJ in that shoot,showing punters how it's actually used in the field, the modes, apps, proving, and precautions,and how lead tangles and pinches, drops, drags, stomps and selector oopsies happen.Bonus footage: what to do with worksite tool and multimeter snatchers--------------Youtube Comments:"MEATBALL POWERIs there a difference between the fluke 27/28 series and this 87v max?Fluke CorporationHi there - Yes, the 87V MAX is a step above the original, successful 28 II. The 87V MAX is the most rugged DMM Fluke has ever built, drop-tested to 4 meters (over 13 feet), while offering a waterproof, dustproof IP67 rated case. The 87V MAX also gives the user TL157 TwistGuard™ test leads. These test leads not only offer adjustable CAT ratings through the TwistGuard probe tips, they remain flexible and usable from -20°C to 55°C (-4°F to 131°F) – the first time both a meter and its test leads have carried such an extreme environmental operating range.TropicalEncounter​@Fluke Corporation Aside from the additional meter of drop rating, the rest of the technical specs of this DMM appear to be identical to the 28II, not the 87V like the marketing literature implies. The description on Flukes website says "The 87V MAX contains all the trusted features of the most popular DMM used today, the Fluke 87V, plus much more", but that statement is not true, for example the diode test function is not created equal to the 87V DMM it is identical to the 28II. Why was this model not labeled as the 28III since that product line is what it most closely resembles?"--------------------No reply yetEDIT: after a curiosity searchfor Fluke Corporation's mention of"TL157 TwistGuard™ test leads"()there is no such item, perhaps a typo and meant theTL175TwistGuard™ test leads >www.fluke.com/en-us/product/accessories/test-leads/fluke-tl175which fwiw are one of the better/best/hard to beat multimeter test lead sets I've usedPerhaps the scrape and rebadgeTL157MAXleads were late for the revamp party?(ED =)

author: Per Hansson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2019, 04:43:12 pm
content: Yes for sure it is a typo because TL175 is what the Fluke 28-II comes with...

author: Marco1971
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2019, 07:10:00 pm
content: Hi, not in all 28 IIs. My own comes with a pair of TL75 same leads in 101, 87V etc.Marco1971

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2019, 07:17:05 pm
content: When I first saw this, I thought "Looks a lot like the 28 Series 2".Glad I'm not the only one that spotted this.I best it's a marketing thing going on here.I notice on the page for it there's a chart comparing it to the 87V.It lists the drop test of the 87V as 3 meters.Last I checked, the 87V drop rating was 1 meter.I think someone screwed up in making the page for that thing.Anyway, I'll stick to my 87V and 88V.Nice as it is, no need for a meter that can withstand being dropped off a dam.Yet....

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2019, 08:53:02 pm
content: Fluke more likely did this for marketing reasons. The lifetime warranty ends 10 years after production stops and company execs barely do anything that's next quarter let alone has a possible perceived benefit 10 years latter especially if it pisses off next quarters customers.Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 19, 2019, 03:09:54 pm

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2019, 09:54:10 pm
content: Lifetime Warranty nuking reasons aside, they could have just called it something like the'87-5 Plus'losing the confusing Roman iIvVxX numbering BS tooadvertising it as the heavy duty version of the 87V based on the 28x model,and no one would have raised concernor smelled deceptive practicesand include both meters in the video, so customers can choose which Fluke to go for that suits their working conditions.i.e. if someone needs more than one meter, they may be better off with an 87V back in the lab/shed/cubby/personcave etcand the heavy duty version rolling around in the tool bag for field use, which fwiw is my setupI originally had two 87Vs and had to baby the one I had on jobs, and wasn't aware of the 28-11 till I saw DJ's Youtube videos.Anyways I sold one 87V and luckily scored a pre loved 28-11 in good nikk for about the same dollars.A 28-11 is a tough no brainer on jobs, but like all my test gear I will throw a leather glove or rag on it if sitting in direct sunlight.Not sure if extreme exposure harms/kills these meters or trashes the displays,and not willing to find out, especially at Fluke replacement prices

author: rammy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 23, 2019, 02:19:42 pm
content: Good news, the 87v max will be assembled in USA declared by fluke's ig reply

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2019, 02:36:58 pm
content: Quote from: Doom-the-Squirrel on November 22, 2019, 07:17:05 pmI doubt it’s a mistake, but rather “clever” marketing.The 87V’s specs list a 1m dropaccording to a specific IEC standard. The MAX’s specs just list “drop test” without any standard, meaning it could be a much simpler test, one which the 87V does indeed survive to 3m.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2019, 08:31:35 pm
content: A drop rating of one metre/meter or three metres/meters tells us nothing.Is the drop on to concrete, steel girder, wood, carpet, ice, Wookie head, what?Is the multimeter powered on, off, or standby mode during the drop?What angulation of droppage ?Ambient temperature: is the multimeter more/less at risk whilst powered on or off in cold or hot weather conditions?i.e. under favorable conditions ANY multimeter can be dropped 1 to 3 metres/meters, and still power up.Same deal with the operatorMarketing 'teams' need to include instonersales spins, whatsubstancethey were indulging in at the time of their decision to roll out the ads/promos.IIRC back in the day.. a well thought out marketing brochure coupled with the user manual of a product, made for quick and easier purchase decisions and usageand fwiw, any multimeter I drop (not often btw) from any ouch height gets taken apart and inspected ASAP, not turned on and returned to 30+ volts prodding duties,no matter if it's 28-11 or a cheapie

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2019, 10:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: rammy on November 23, 2019, 02:19:42 pmWhy is that good? US manufacturing isn't known as a cut above other usual suspects.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2019, 11:09:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2019, 10:15:43 pmI fully agree it is not a guarantee of quality. However, having manufacturing close to home (anywhere where there is decent manufacturing industry, not only US) GREATLY helps with initial setup, quality overseer during production and accountability when things go wrong.I've had to deal with both scenarios and, for a product that does not sell in the millions of units per month/year, the closer to home the better.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2019, 11:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 23, 2019, 11:09:47 pmI'm not so sure. The US manufacturing workforce has been downsized substantially and expertise and knowledge has consequently bled away. More has to be done with less than years ago. If domestic or close to home manufacturing were tied to quality US products would likely have a better reputation than they currently do. The US doesn't seem to be known for quality manufacturing.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 12:04:19 am
content: "assembled in.."can mean anythingI reckon they been reading posts here and Youtube comment whines,about flagship class Fluke meter prices 'Made In NoOneCan100%VerifyLand'so they can justify the big price tagsand or an imminent price hike, if supposedly 'assembled' in the original country of 'assembly'and manufactureI smell and call BS on this one@ Fluke corpotrolls and the like: DON'T even think about it, I'm on to your tired bait and Report tacticsTry it on another forum, you may get a bite or two over there..

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 12:07:08 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2019, 11:40:10 pmI am not saying this from a theoretical position; I have been working on this for the best part of three years. The company that does the overseer and the control may have other priorities at hand such as cost, but you can control the output of your production run much more tightly. I am not, however, involved with million unit production runs but instead about ten thousand units per year.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 12:20:40 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 24, 2019, 12:07:08 amFluke has well established manufacturing in China so that's no more or less a home game than US manufacturing.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 01:06:45 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 23, 2019, 11:09:47 pmWhen you're manufacturing at Fluke scales you can afford to have a decent manager over there, permanently.Quote from: Electro Detective on November 24, 2019, 12:04:19 amWhenever I see that label I think it's only there for marketing purposes - because the buyers will pay extra if they believe they're buying something patriotic, not something "imported".In reality it might mean a single screw was put in to hold the imported parts together.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 01:08:42 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on November 23, 2019, 08:31:35 pmThat's the message of the video: With a Fluke you don't need to do that.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 01:10:09 am
content: I design PCBs and help my customers get the initial batch of prototypes made.There are many many US contract manufacturers around and their quality is really good, components are almost certain to be real, and you can address issues with them face to face. Those are not things that I can say about Chinese manufacturing. The biggest issue is that the cost of manufacturing in the US is 2 to 5 times greater in the US than in China.This is just my experience, others may have difference results.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 02:36:47 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on November 24, 2019, 01:10:09 amIt looks like you're US based though. When you have people on the ground permanently or even your own manufacturing facilities the home turf advantage evaporates.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 03:35:43 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 23, 2019, 11:09:47 pmI have a Fluke 117 that is Made in China. It's every bit made to the same standard as their Made/Assembled in the USA.Made in America means nothing to me over made in China. It's the company and it's reputation that matters.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 04:14:26 am
content: My Fluke beef a while back (before professionally baited unawares, and thrown under the troll bus..)was that if the apparently supervised 'Made In China' meters are just as good in quality and support as those formally made in the USA,then why the same mega prices when it's so much cheaper to produce in China?Where's the loyal customer benefits to justify 'sorry bub, not made in USA anymore' and local job losses?Fluke has THE name and reputation, and no serious competition as yet to dent their sales,so why are the MIC meters so expensive, at Made In USA prices and beyond ?The decent quality MIC 114, 115, 116, 117 aren't that cheap for what they are,for that money you are looking at a serious Brymen or different brand of orange holstered meter,LOADED with features and performance.and to be quite frank, they could have packed the few features of the 115 and 116 into the 117,charge the same 117 money,to save electricians, tradies, HVAC, and serious home gamers a decision headache between four same-ish models

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 07:22:35 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on November 24, 2019, 04:14:26 amMate, tell me a company who moved his production from US or EU or any Western country to China, Vietnam, Thailand, India, etc and lowered the prices of the products because of his production being cheaper in that country instead of the home country? Just one with proof... I can't remember any. They move because it increases their own bottom line and the investors pockets, not to pass that savings to the end customer. If you don't agree with that then don't support the companies who do that.Again by looking at the 87V vs the 87VC (china only version) and the 289 vs 289C the build is made in different places (all C versions are made in china) but are exactly structural and component wise equal to the non C versions. As I said before, the all Made in USA is just a status symbol who does mean jack shit.Plus the main part of the thread it was to understand/speculate why the 87V MAX was released if it's a rebrand of the 28II, not (again) comparisons between China made and US made equipment.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 08:39:29 am
content: They are meandering towards deceptive marketing to keep up with other marketards, and money grubbing for the sake of lazy low life investors andunemployablebrokers,and not doing US punters any favorswhich this post, about a multimeter rebadge, to dodge support of the previously badged model, clearly revealsyet the skeptical loyal customer is force fed some 'reputation driven company' BS, in 2019..which is hard to swallow.As a Fluke owner and still fanmy next purchase/s, or consideration to purchase, will be after a LOT of research, Youtubes..and a glance at what the competition has to offer.i.e. if something else also MIC looks good and performs well enough at a 1/10 of the price,bring it on...fwiw I now own some Uni-T gear () and optimistic CAT label concerns aside, they are good enough for the tasks I bought them for,especially if it's not CAT dependent work

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 10:16:20 am
content: Yes I'm US-based plus I'm close to the heart of the Automotive industry in SE Michigan.More thoughts on China:- Made in China can be good but you have to have 2 things in place to get 'good'. 1) Representatives on the ground to keep Chinese CMs on their toes and ensure your quality 2) Repeat business to follow (maybe).- My Apple iPhone says something like "Designed in California, made in China" on it and it's an awesome product.- I have had several PCBs made by PCBWay in China, the quality is excellent and the price very low compared to the US.- I've heard that China has so many businesses competing that there's always somewhere willing to make it cheaper and that by forcing down prices the bean counters (financial management) often force down quality.- As many have said, many US manufacturers prefer to see the savings in manufacturing costs of 'made in China' go to their profits rather than savings to their customers.- My local CMs privately voice annoyance with the Auto industry who have reputations of giving CMs big contracts that take up half of their production capacity and then coming back and demanding outrageous price reductions once the CM has ramped up to meet their customer's needs. This is by no measure just an electronics industry issue.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 02:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2019, 12:20:40 amIt could be, but we can only wonder why they still insist in US manufacturing then. If Flukes made in PRC were identical and cheaper, why then have different model designators for that market alone? 87VC or the 101 are examples.Marketing alone is not enough to hold the facilities in a given country, since it can be easily circumvented by word play shown in the subsequent discussion below:Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2019, 01:06:45 amThat is my experience as well.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 02:23:11 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 24, 2019, 02:14:54 pmEasy: US military and other government that require critical equipment to be made in USA. (People don’t realize that even many brands that manufacture everything abroad have minor domestic manufacturing facilities in order to be able to sell a version to the military that is “Made in USA”. But you’ll never see those on the web store, they have to be ordered through government sales offices.)

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 02:40:13 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on November 24, 2019, 08:39:29 amMy story with Fluke was different.My first contact with the Yellow Meter was the Fluke 112 that was given to me and all my colleagues at the Electronics/Electricity Vocational Degree (Equivalent to the VET in AUS) for the degree. After that I had the chance on my first work to have the Fluke 111 (same as the 112 but without the screen light function) for me as work DMM. Although I also had a Fluke 77-IV that was my senior colleague DMM. Later he bought the Fluke 1587 as his new DMM (It was common for us to test Transformers Isolations and Motors on the CNC machines we sold and repaired, so instead of renting equipment we gone and bought it) and the 77-IV turned my new DMM. I also had the chance to use the Fluke 705 Loop Calibrator (used for testing boards for faulty sensors) and the Fluke Scopemeter 97.So basically all my first 3 years of work were around Fluke equipments, so when the chance to buy the Fluke 289 in 2007 appeared (was added to the company quotation for new equipments, but I paid fully from my pocket. I just had a small discount because of the many equipments we bought but I still paid more that €850 for the FVF kit) I simply didn't refuse it. After that all my other Fluke buys were on the side market and paid way less than the selling price (Fluke 54II for £80 and now the Fluke 87V for US$260.00).Currently I still like Fluke but the lack of innovation in some of their money movers makes me start looking apprehensive. And rebranding existing equipments is not innovation.Kinda makes me remember this video from Fluke itself:Although I don't deny that they have a big slice of the market and a lot of brand respect and reputation, who made them win contracts with governments and military. And that makes the will to innovate a second plan (See Intel vs AMD).Quote from: tooki on November 24, 2019, 02:23:11 pmYes I always forget than that kind of requirements exists./EDIT: Correction of the English to a understandable and mostly continuous thought, I hope!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 05:55:01 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 24, 2019, 02:23:11 pmWith the US COTS policy and apparently large amounts of counterfeit parts found in everything up to and including fighter jets there doesn't seem to be a requirement to have military DMMs made in the US.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 06:39:38 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on November 24, 2019, 03:35:43 amWhy should it? Both America and China are foreign countries to you. Would you be willing to pay a premium for something that is made in Australia though?I like to support the local economy when I reasonably can. People complain when there are no good well paying jobs, and then they go out and buy the cheapest imported stuff they can find. Can't have it both ways, can't sell at rock bottom prices while paying people reasonable living wages to build and support stuff.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 06:46:49 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 24, 2019, 06:39:38 pmSure, but buying something stamped "assembled in the USA" probably isn't doing that.(...any more than buying products that are marked "Designed in California")

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 07:35:50 pm
content: No, but Fluke meters *used* to be built right near me in Everett. Who knows how the production is done anymore, it probably is just trivial assembly work, I don't think I'd buy a brand new Fluke, there is little compelling reason now. There was in not too distant history though.

author: pjones
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 09:33:02 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on November 19, 2019, 10:10:57 pmThey are sure taking their time on a response...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 09:43:50 pm
content: It honestly looks like the Danaher Method is in full effect. Buy a reputable company and extract every last cent out of it instead of developing it further. Don't invest or develop but instead ride the reputation until it's evaporated. I'd like to believe otherwise but I don't see what they're doing as the products being good as they are. Most people would agree something like the 289 has room for improvement but instead they come up with a rebadge. Looks like Fluke is doing a Tektronix.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 10:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: pjones on November 24, 2019, 09:33:02 pmYeah, don't hold your breath waitingI had another peek to see if any progress or reply at that video > youtube.com/watch?v=iInW6CL3RFEYoutube commenter 'TropicalEncounter' has come back 3 days later tostick in the bootsexpand his/her previous observation based comment"MEATBALL POWER 1 week agoIs there a difference between the fluke 27/28 series and this 87v max?Fluke Corporation 1 week agoHi there - Yes, the 87V MAX is a step above the original, successful 28 II. The 87V MAX is the most rugged DMM Fluke has ever built, drop-tested to 4 meters (over 13 feet), while offering a waterproof, dustproof IP67 rated case. The 87V MAX also gives the user TL157 TwistGuard™ test leads. These test leads not only offer adjustable CAT ratings through the TwistGuard probe tips, they remain flexible and usable from -20°C to 55°C (-4°F to 131°F) – the first time both a meter and its test leads have carried such an extreme environmental operating range.TropicalEncounter 5 days ago​@Fluke Corporation Aside from the additional meter of drop rating, the rest of the technical specs of this DMM appear to be identical to the 28II, not the 87V like the marketing literature implies. The description on Flukes website says "The 87V MAX contains all the trusted features of the most popular DMM used today, the Fluke 87V, plus much more", but that statement is not true, for example the diode test function is not created equal to the 87V DMM it is identical to the 28II. Why was this model not labeled as the 28III since that product line is what it most closely resembles?TropicalEncounter 2 days ago​@Fluke Corporation My previous post wasn't a rhetorical question, I am genuinely curious why Fluke has decided to take, what appears to be, the 28II DMM and put a better padded housing over it, then figured that (what appears to be) single change was worthy of a name change for it and bumping it over to the 87 series product line. What has actually been improved or changed from the 28II model? I'm curious what the considerations were when this change was decided. is this the beginning of the phase out of the 28 series models? I consider leads to be an accessory to a meter so I didn't add it to the list of features changed. Were there any changes in production or design of the board or internal components? Basically, what I'm asking is, if I go out and buy the TL175 leads and the upgraded case for the 87V MAX, from what the literature says, have I essentially upgraded the 28II to the 87V MAX? I like the fact that 9V batteries are relatively reliable and that was a great feature of the 87V DMM, but you've changed that to use AA batteries which can be quite prone to leaking even with high quality batteries. Is damage caused by leaking batteries covered by the warranty? If it's not are you going to provide parts available to us so it can be repaired if it happens? In my opinion, for a company that sells high quality equipment, the TL71 leads that you provide are a slap in the face to the people who just purchased that equipment. I know thats a harsh statement but they are clunky to use and feel cheep when you pick them up. It created doubt and makes us wonder if the rest of the meter was built with the same quality as the test leads, not a good first impression to give with a new piece of equipment. The change to the silicone leads was a smart move that I believe everyone will be happy with. I use the TL175 leads every day and have been very happy with them."------------------I doubt even the company's best feelgood motormouths would dare rock up to contest that. I reckon they'll pull the video insteadThe corpotrolls are running late to the party, probably demanding extra pay to begin their Youtube attacks and insults on this too hard basketAnd is that"better padded housing"something new, or pretty much the same with a stylish curve or whatever added?At about 0:32 seconds into the paused video, and other parts that show the sides and rear, it looks EXACTLY like the holster on mine, including the grubby smudgework,and same silly wonky standthat's close to useless@ 'Fluke Corporation': please just fess up 'umm yes, it's a 28-11 rebadge',a bored marketing team's light bulb attempt to give customers a heavier duty 87V option,and pump the recognised sales line for another 10 years.Nothing really wrong with that, the product is still good, and business is business..but PLEASE don't overprice itto fill lazy investard parasite pockets

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 11:52:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2019, 05:55:01 pmNot specifically for DMMs. But for most military purchasing, period:https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2015/09/dod-buying-from-everywhere-but-america/(With incomplete success, obviously.)Similar rules exist for many other branches of the federal government, with even less adherence...https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/24/us/politics/secret-service-uniforms-mexico-trump-trade.html

author: R2DAW
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 27, 2019, 10:03:48 pm
content: I recently bought 28-II (for unknown reason, here it's cheaper than 87-V). I regestred it on Fluke website, providing them my e-mail.Today got a newsletter from Fluke, featuring new 87V MAX. When I saw it my first reaction was like: "Wait, what?!" Almost identical except it's size but even weight is same not mentioning other things.My second reaction when I saw photos from their advertisement campaign was "Déjà vu". And yes - they even reuse their photos from advertisement campaign for 28 IIOriginal:https://testeribg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/FLUKE_28II_5.pngLittle Photoshop for 87V MAX:https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/87v-max-dustproof.jpgUnbelievable (c).P.S. And MAX is unlucky product name, IMHO.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 01:07:29 am
content: Quote from: R2DAW on November 27, 2019, 10:03:48 pmThat's even less funny that I expected...Really Fluke?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 01:54:56 am
content: Wait a sec - are we getting snookied? 87V 9V battery verses 87V MAX three of AA battery?That means the battery weight is 1.5x, energy is doubled, run time is doubled... so it actually consumes 15% more current and has lower compliance voltage on ohms and diode-testWhat pisses me off, Fortive has $24B in market cap, $6B in revenue and this nothing burger is what rolls out?They have multimeters grouped and tailored to use - automotive, lab, industrial, electrical, plant etc.It makes no sense to take a lab DMM and add a few outdoor features to it, mainly a big fat bumper, change over to the 28II's board, and give it the legend's model number.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 09:03:31 am
content: Check out the video >youtube.com/watch?v=iInW6CL3RFEthe only difference physically I can see and spec wise comparisons to a 28-11, is the87V MAXlogoi.e. it's a rebadged 28-11 and some marketardswetdream to impress the bosses/shareholders with someidiotic87V 'reboot'FYI: why bother to obese and reboot a classic that will keep selling forever 'as is' ?@ 28-11 owners:hold up your 28-11 next to the video and tell me I'm wrong, and or one latte too manyEDIT: Here's the latestWHOPPERcomment and reply at that Youtube video:Ray So 4 days agoIs the 87V Max assembled in USA?Fluke Corporation 2 days agoYes, the 87V MAX is manufactured in Everett, WA. Thanks!----------------@ Chinese EEVblog members: with all due respect folks, is there such a place in China?

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 10:36:38 am
content: Quote from: FlukeMaybe the Chinese created a place called 'Everett, WA'? They created a place called Sheffield so they could stamp 'made in Sheffield' on their cutlery.Happy Thanksgiving to all; especially the indigenous native North Americans.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 12:36:57 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on November 28, 2019, 10:36:38 amThat's just urban legend. No evidence whatsoever of that being true:https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/topic/202374-made-in-sheffield-china/#comments

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 04:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: R2DAW on November 27, 2019, 10:03:48 pmI noticed that as well. As if they just edited photos of the Fluke 28 II and pasted the new badge on it.Aside from the 4 meter drop, it's just the same thing.Now, if they offered higher voltages for diode tests and a low impedance as well as high impedance, then I might consider it.I wonder if Dave will get one and do some drop tests.

author: rammy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 04:42:55 pm
content: I'm expecting to see the tough test too.Btw,does anyone know is the 87v max released already?

author: rammy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 04:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on November 28, 2019, 09:03:31 amAlso find the same reply in ig

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 05:08:14 pm
content: Looking at Fluke's page, they still have their banner that appears, asking for a notification when it is ready to ship.I would assume it isn't released yet.I wonder if they're rethinking the idea, or if they're looking for other ways to differentiate it from the 28-II.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 10:10:22 pm
content: Quote from: rammy on November 30, 2019, 04:52:28 pmIf they stick with that reply at a few more websites,over time all here at this post, and Fluke themselves, may believe it too ()Everett in Western Australia is a top Butcher's shop in Kalgoorlieno mention of the 87V MAX or subbing for Fluke on their Facebook page

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 04:47:14 am
content: I wonder if they offer any kind of tour of the facility? I'm about 20 minutes from Everett, probably would have to know somebody who worked there though.

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 04:59:47 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 02, 2019, 04:47:14 amThey used to, I believe.There is a video on Youtube that showed a Fluke facility, that including the chamber where the meters are subjected to high voltage on ohms. They demonstrate this with a cheap multimeter that blows up.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 08:49:15 am
content: They're hiring aDigital Multimeter (DMMs) Business Unit Manager"Bachelor’s degree in Business, Marketing, Technical/Engineering; MBA preferred"I'm sure business and marketing types know what a volt is, or the difference between 87 and 28. Sigh.There's a Fluke Injection Molding building in the research park, that would be neat to tour. I wonder what products are done there.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:42:32 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 02, 2019, 04:47:14 amabout 20 minutes from Everett? Lose the tour and rock up with a resumehttps://careers.fortive.com/job/FORTUSFLU008609/Digital-Multimeter-DMMs-Clamps-EPROD-Business-Unit-Manageryou may get lucky as there is no human on Earth that will meet those requirements, plus you have the advantage of being close by1. Pump up your resume a bit () they won't check2. Do not mention this post3. Take an 87V along= in like Flynn

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:46:09 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 02, 2019, 10:42:32 amJeez, was that job advert generated by a buzzword-script?

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 11:31:17 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 02, 2019, 08:49:15 amThe first time the word 'engineer' or 'engineering' appears in that job description is 94 words in, almost an afterthought - the main role seems to be to "drive growth and profitability"That speaks volumes to why their newer products suck so badly. It's also sadly ironic that they chose the term 'Max' when the Boeing 737 Max series were the planes that fell out of the sky killing all on board because engineering safety concerns were overridden by business requirements (aka profit & greed).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 11:38:32 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 02, 2019, 08:49:15 amTalk about misleading quoting there...That is an eminently reasonable requirement, but it's not the salient one. Let's look at that bullet point in context:QuoteSo they're not looking for a green-faced college graduate, as your selective quoting implied. They're looking for an industry veteran, and a degree is merely a prerequisite.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 11:42:43 am
content: What fantasy land do you guys live in, if you think companies don't need business-side product managers whose job it is to plan and drive sales? They're a publicly traded company, they HAVE to have business people just to manage basic SEC compliance.The issue is whether those people have respect and deference for a) customers and b) their engineers, in equal measures. And a corporate, written-by-HR-drone job listing like that tells usnothingabout that.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 11:46:06 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 02, 2019, 11:31:17 am*737 MAX. There is no 767 MAX.Anyhow, I, too, think the 87V MAX name is unfortunate (I think I said this earlier on). Perhaps the T&M business unit manager position has been vacant for a while now, and the 87V MAX sign-off was by some random Fortive MBA who REALLY doesn't know the business.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 11:57:06 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 02, 2019, 11:42:43 amWell put. That reads to me as boilerplate job description for that type of position.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 02:42:58 pm
content: In the automotive world, the product managers are kings of their domains and are engineers who liaise with marketing. I agree that you need good marketing managers but you also need good products and this whole thread has been questioning why the new Fluke 87 V Max looks like a product designed by someone who doesn't use the product.You can have the best marketing in the world but a bad product will doom your sales numbers.

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 03:19:09 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 03, 2019, 02:42:58 pmDon't know about that, but I'm questioning why the Fluke 87V Max seems to be a duplicate of another product.It just seems to be a rebadged Fluke 28 II.That's the real issue I think people are going to have with it, unless someone can look inside the thing and see what sets it apart from the Fluke 28 II, apart from a 4 meter drop rating, compared to a 3 meter one.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 03:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 03, 2019, 02:42:58 pmThe problem here is that It wasn't a product designed from someone who doesn't use the product. It is a copy paste of an existing product, the Fluke 28II, that is even more lazy. Just change some silkscreen in a plastic printing machine, change the design of the packing box and some text in the manual and done.It's like when a brand releases a restyling of the last year's model, but in this case they only changed where the letters stuck on the boot.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 04:01:12 pm
content: +1 here. The 87V MAX is probably an excellent product but, until proven otherwise, it is a carbon copy of the excellent 28II.This is lazy marketing, not lazy engineering.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 04:16:41 pm
content: Quote from: Doom-the-Squirrel on December 03, 2019, 03:19:09 pmNo, the real issue is that some specs suddenly got a lot worse in something that's being sold as an "improved" product.eg. Diode test voltage.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 04:53:38 pm
content: I think the outrage so many in this thread are expressing is simply ridiculous. From the sound of it, you’d think Fluke somehowowedyou a bells-and-whistles new model.1. Fluke doesn’t owe you anything.2. There’s nothing wrong with the 87V MAX being a rebadge of the 28 II. Companies do this all the time.3. Given that the 28 II is a drop-in substitute for the 87V for probably 90% of users, and that it probably results in less warranty claim costs due to its better durability, I speculate that Fluke was probably frustrated that people kept buying the 87V instead. So the rename might just be to try and get more people to the newer, more robust platform.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 06:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 03, 2019, 04:53:38 pmSure they do. Better do what we fans and detractors want or else! We will splatter our anger on Twitter, Forums, Instagram and Facebook and hurt your sales for hobbyists and purists! Sure, you still sell your soul to those fat government and transnational contracts and this will probably not hurt your bottom line, but our principles are still intact.Quote from: tooki on December 03, 2019, 04:53:38 pm87IV --> 89IV --> 187/189 --> dead as a dodo.Quote from: tooki on December 03, 2019, 04:53:38 pmAha! Gotcha! They are trying to save a buck by consolidating product lines and using all this new age MBA Kanban 6σ JIT on top of everyone. Us fans and hobbyists will grab our emojis of pitchforks and torches and show you our anger at your Facebook page.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 06:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 03, 2019, 04:53:38 pmThey owe us enough to not crap all over us with stunts like this.Their customers are mostly professional engineers. They're gonna notice.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 07:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 02, 2019, 11:38:32 amNot mislead - line 1, the job prereq's are hilarious, not the years of experience.Marketing/Business types don't even own a soldering iron or multimeter. You want this as Captain of Fluke DMM's? It's all about "driving sales"?Engineering and business have absolutely NOTHING IN COMMON.Engineers strive to make something safe, reliable, useful whilst business wants the MAX return to shareholders, in the fastest possible development time, with pittance spent on R&D or the long-term as that doesn't make money on paper. The race to the bottom that MBA-style management has become.I've worked with several Product Line Managers- some uneducated but been with the company 15-20 years, others with an engineering degree and MBA. The best are in the trenches with their customers, know the applications very well - not sitting in Board room having meeting upon meeting and jerking off to a Gantt chart.I duly note Fortis is located next door to Boeing, also incapable of making a new product and can only rehash a decades-old legend calling it the MAX.The thread asks opinions of the 87V MAX and I say it's a nothing burger. I bitch because Fortis is letting the brand rot, stay as 1990's tech or even worse if the 87 is now a 28.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 10:07:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 03, 2019, 06:51:15 pmFluke’s customers are primarily industrial technicians. Not engineers, LOL.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 12:22:12 am
content: I'm glad I no longer own any Fluke meters, I have 3 Keysight handheld and one bench multimeter

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 01:55:29 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 04, 2019, 12:22:12 amBut I know you will one day buy a 289, at the right price. I know you will...Quote from: tooki on December 03, 2019, 04:53:38 pmYes they doesn't own me anything, but we are free to judge their own choices, knowing that nothing will change, but still we are free to express our opinions right? This is a discussion topic, if it keep it civil and point valid points, the opinion is valid as any other right? Just because you are the leader in a market, that doesn't mean you should do the minimum. Look at Intel and what it got to them. Sure AMD will do the same and then Intel will overcome them again, and so on. The Prey it will be the Hunter in the future, over and over again. That kind of fight is what makes things improve, get better.John Fluke would never think that his company would release a 289 or a 87V when he released the first Portable DMM, the Fluke 8020A. World evolve, and that is because companies and engineers crave for more, for better. f we gone into the mentality of it's good enough we will all still be driving the Ford T, and the Internet would not exist. Heck we would still live in Caves.We know they can inovate - the Fluke 289, the FC series of equipments (that I really think is a great thing, having all equipments measuring different stuff simultaneously and being able to see real time live on a PC all the measures is great).It may not mean anything for the normal buyer, a corporation but for the ones who get assign said equipments and who use the equipments it says a lot. And we always like to have the best, the better. We talk into the wind, what we talk no one will listen or thing we have a point. Specially corporations.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:24:37 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 03, 2019, 07:08:55 pmThat's exactly why this meter is acomplete fail. No existing 87V owner is going to "upgrade" to this.Imagine how many "sales" they could have made if the 87V MAX was an 87V with some extra features, eg. 100,000 count hi-res mode, ability to select DC mode by default on current ranges, better measurement of AC+DC combined, faster settling times, CAT !V 1000V, etc.(which is all stuff that can be done without changing any existing operating procedures...)That would have driven a few salesanda lot of upgrades from existing 87V meters.Maybe that's why they're looking for a new product manager.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:55:10 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 04, 2019, 08:24:37 amIt's not a 'Maybe', they are PRAYING a sleezy and or experienced applicant will walk in to theirpanic strickenboard room meetingand offer them a money spinning 'rebadge' idea that won't cost an extra dime in production costs, or a pittance at best,a money spinning 'rebadge' idea that won't cost an extra dime in production costs, or a pittance at best,they can score here for free,or already have..

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 09:11:51 am
content: After the Boeing fiasco I'm surprised anyone would use "MAX" as a product name enhancement

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 09:57:40 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 04, 2019, 08:24:37 amIt is not meant to be replacement or upgrade. Marketing wanted to cash in on strongest brand name on market, to prop up the sales of 28... Simple as that. IT IS about milking the brand name. And they got it right... Just look at this useless and long discussion here...News flash: Fluke is brand in decline in multimeter world. For years, nothing new was made.. They live of the old glory, and as long as few remaining products sell, they will keep it going.Maximum profits, minimum investment...And if they make new 87 VI with upgrades you suggested, it would compete with 289 and we can't have that, can we? And so many people told me here on EEVBLOG that they like it exactly because it was simpler than, for instance, Brymen 869. To them lack of features and functions is a virtue, not a deficit.And anwer to OP question: Who cares. Nothing happened. They renamed one product. How is that of any relevance to anybody except to Flue salesman?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 10:24:01 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 04, 2019, 09:57:40 amThere's also the argument that any changes to the markings on the dial would force a lot of people to rewrite their operating procedure manuals, training material, etc.That's why none of my suggestions in the previous post made it less simple or changed the way it works. They were just incremental improvements to the existing meter to keep it competitive and maybe even give existing 87V owners a reason to upgrade.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 11:12:08 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on December 04, 2019, 01:55:29 amI haven't got set up for making videos properly yet but am moving (slowly) in that direction. However, I have tested out the data capture features of the U1242C and it meets all my needs; it can capture up to 2,000 readings stand-alone or unlimited plugged in (or connected via the U1117A BT module). The Keysight handheld meter logger software on the PC can a) grab the contents of the 2,000 saved values and save as .csv/.pdf and b) generate graphs over time of multiple readings i.e. more than 1 meter feeding data into the software. I can also do wireless readings to my iPhone using the U1117A from any of my Agilent handheld meters.I'm not feeling the urge to go splash out on a 289 right now.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 12:23:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 04, 2019, 08:24:37 amYou think upgrades are desirable in this industry?!? This isn’t phones or computers. The physics of electricity aren’t changing. Test and measurement is an industry where long-term reliability, durability, and consistency are much more valuable. Their key customers don’t want featuritis in a field multimeter, they want reliable devices. They want to know that the model they buy now will be available in 10 years because the equipment they service with it will be in use for 50 years.And no, the potential changes you list most certainlywouldchange procedures and policies! Don’t you understand that industrial, military, aviation, etc customers have procedures that require arduous processes to change AT ALL? You literally cannot change a single word in a military or aviation manual without a stack of approvals, validations, etc. If a meter has different defaults, additional buttons or modes, or different values shown (which extra digits would do), then you’ve invalidated the manual and it has to go through all that again.Besides, why turn the 87 into the 287/289, which already exists? Customers who want those features already have options. And don’t forget that Fluke did add features to the 87 series in the 87 IV, and it backfired and they ended up changing it into the 187/189. So it’s not even as though Fluke doesn’t know whether it’s a bad idea, they KNOW it is!!We electronics people need to understand thatwe are not the market for Fluke meters. While we appreciate the reliability of the Fluke gear, it’s not designed for us. It’s designed for industry and electricians. Fluke makes absolutely no secret of this. The things we might want in a meter simply are not relevant to the industrial electricians they focus on, and in fact are undesirable distractions, adding complexity and opportunities for failure.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 04:47:59 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 04, 2019, 12:23:03 pmYes!Quote from: tooki on December 04, 2019, 12:23:03 pmThey don't have to stop producing the old one.(In fact theyaren'tstopping production of the old one, probably for the reasons you mention.)OTOH there's plenty of people who are starting to suspect that Fluke aren't the "best" any more. If I was a sales manager I'd be targeting those people with an upgrade.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:06:33 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 04, 2019, 09:11:51 amThe term max is hardly a Boeing exclusive.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:33:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 04, 2019, 04:47:59 pmAnd it’s a good thing you’re not a manager, because you’d fall flat on your face from not understanding what those customers want.They don’t want bells and whistles. They want simple, reliable, and consistent.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:33:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 04, 2019, 08:06:33 pm:::whoosh:::^^ sound of the point zipping right over your head.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:39:15 pm
content: This isn't an electrician's multimeter - No low Z (V or C) so you can't trust readings out in the field. Silly conductance measurement, ±0.05% accuracy is unnecessary.I worked with plant electricians and they were scared of the 87V, didn't understand all the features and were afraid to damage one. It was too embarrassing to damage such an expensive meter and have all your peers laughing at you and the boss pissed off. This is what they told me. So the 114 (no current measurement) was popular for them.Fluke really need a new DMM chipset, to lower costs and increase features. The days of the Linear Tech alliance are long gone, I can't see Analog Devices really giving a shit over high margin, low volume IC fab. Hycon and Cyrustek Taiwan have the leading DMM IC's out there.The 87VNGwill likely have marketing add airbags, so it can survive a very long drop.The holster offered in hot pink or rainbow colour, for a gender inclusive product.Probably has MCAS in it, so the 87V MAX behaves just like an 87V despite 28II hardware.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:44:48 pm
content: Wait, so you’re saying that the techs preferred the 114 because they were afraid of the 87V because its features overwhelmed them, but you’re also saying that Fluke should design a new chipset so they can add more features?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 09:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 04, 2019, 08:33:49 pmIt wasn't ging to be a 737 MAX zipping over my head was it?Do elaborate.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 11:08:22 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 04, 2019, 08:44:48 pmI think you're saying Fluke handheld meters such as 87V are designed for industry and electricians - not for engineers in the lab.I disagree in two ways- I've found electricians prefer simple, lower cost models, and the 87V was never great for field use, missing a low Z feature. So why add a fat bumper, make it waterproof and tougher for drops, add a few outdoor features... to an indoor multimeter?I think the 87V is very good in the lab, engineers use and trust them a lot. Many engineers are fans of that model here.For Fluke DMM's to stay relevant, the next generation DMM's need a new single chip DMM IC. Not that Fortive will get off their greedy, lazy ass and do some real product development. Just sit back and milk the old cash cow, everyone collects a paycheque hoping the stock goes up. These mega-conglomerates kill legendary brands in a slow painful death.I suspect component obsolescence is the real reason 87V MAX is using the 28II hardware. The 87V might get discontinued as part of the big plan.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 01:34:47 am
content: Just like many other Flukes, the 87V uses a programmable Flash MSP430 device which is still in production. I am not so sure about the other parts though.Regarding electricians' requirements, most of the ones I know like the 179, which also does not have LowZ measurements. At the labs I work, 87V and 187/189 are the norm. I have no idea what big contractors such as the various government agencies use.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 05:43:50 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 04, 2019, 08:33:10 pmSo... Fluke 117?Quote from: tooki on December 04, 2019, 08:33:10 pmThey don't want the Fluke 87V MAX, I know that much.It’s a good thingyou’renot a manager, because you fail to understand there might beothertypes of customers out there who'd be prepared to pay for a few upgrades.

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 08:39:30 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 04, 2019, 08:39:15 pmI don't know about that.I'm told that at the Palo Verde plant, Fluke 87Vs are used.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 11:18:43 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 05:43:50 amUnfortunately that kind of customer is a drop in the ocean. It's not the John Doe who likes to mess around with electronics or all the users on this forum who will make a dent when you have the Military/Government contracts who order a lot more. So I understand why Fluke done what we have been talking here, but that doesn't mean that I should feel OK with that. But I can't and don't have the power to change something. I'm just a sale in a sea of bigger contracts that pushes a lot more units.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 03:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 05:43:50 amOf course I know such customers exist. What I understand, and you don’t, is that Fluke doesn’twantthose customers, because catering to them would make their product less attractive to their core customer group. One NEVER improves a product by trying to make it be everything to everyone. You succeed by focusing a product on a particular customer group and tailoring it for them.And as I said, Flukealreadyhas models that cater to people who need more features.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 03:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 04, 2019, 11:08:22 pmUmmm... look at Fluke’s branding, advertisement, marketing, etc for handheld meters from the past 30+ years. It’s all for electricians, industrial maintenance, and the like. They’re not designed or marketed for lab work.As I said, many of us use them for engineering anyway, but it’s NOT what they’re designed for!!! That’s obvious to anyone who’s looked at their communication even cursorily.The fact that another group of customers buys a product doesn’t mean they are the target market. For example, one can use salt and flour to make play-dough,and it’s commonly done, but that doesn’t suddenly prove that flour mills designed their flour for play-dough makers. It’s just a tangential application.Why add a bumper to a non-waterproof meter? Ummm, because indoor industrial environments exist? It’s actually possible, as it turns out, to have falls onto concrete indoors.Quote from: floobydust on December 04, 2019, 11:08:22 pmWhat’s wrong with the current chipset?? I’ve seen nothing here other than lust for novelty, but nothing even distantly approaching an actual deficiency.I do agree with you about stupid conglomerates that strip companies of their value and leave their sorry husks behind. (See “corporate raiding”.)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 10:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 05, 2019, 03:36:50 pmMaybe so, but all the people saying they can't touch a single feature because procedure/manuals/process are still contradict themselves:a) The 'V' in "87V" is a roman numeral. Fluke has changed the 87 feature set five times.b) This new "MAX" model doesn't have the same electrical specifications as the 'V' model.c) If it were true the US army would still be using the Fluke 27FM.Quote from: tooki on December 05, 2019, 03:36:50 pmThey stopped producing the 189.I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Fluke doesn't care about features or making the best possible meters any more. They're run by bean counters and just milking their brand name and existing contracts for all they're worth.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 10:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 04, 2019, 11:08:22 pmAlso the screen sucks donkey balls in indoors lighting. Seems to be great in daylight outside, wonder if this is a feature, not a bug.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 12:00:45 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 05, 2019, 10:46:50 pmWith the 28II lower compliance voltage, I thought it's due to new silicon or the lowered rails. It must be the (new) lower battery voltage? From 9V to 3xAA.ASIC LTC984-1 (SL10327) Fluke 2103969 does the ohms-source and runs off +/-2.5VDC in the old 87V, MSP430 sees 5V to drive the LCD.If there is no boost-converter to make up for the lower battery voltage, then LCD contrast is also going to take a hit and it explains the lower ohms compliance voltage. Still fishy.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 02:00:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 10:39:57 pmIt's not a contradiction. It's explaining that you don't want to make gratuitous changes that will trigger major review. You keep changes to a minimum, both in terms of frequency and scope. That way, procedure and documentation reviews, being arduous as they are for those customers, are kept to a minimum. Not to zero, just to a minimum.It's not that youcan'tchange the product at all, it's that if you do it too much, you will piss off key customers. It makes more sense to instead produceadditionalmodels, and that's exactly what Fluke has done over the years. That way, customers that want more features can choose those, and customers who need continuity are also served.Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 10:39:57 pmNope.There have been exactly three "true" 87 models: the original 87 (1988), the 87III (1998), and the 87V (2004). The 87IV (1999) did not replace the 87III, but was sold alongside it, and later became the 187 (2000), and that evolved into the 287 (2008). The 87IV was anadditionalmodel, not an actual upgrade.AFAIK there was no 87II. I think they went straight to III to align the series numbers with the 70 series III.Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 10:39:57 pmNope, it's not identical. And that's probably why they're not canceling the 87V. (Though it begs the question of why bothering, since the 28II already existed.)Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 10:39:57 pmAnd why do you think Fluke still makes the 27II? Legacy procedures and manuals are the only plausible explanation, given that nobody else in their right mind would spend that much money on an average-response meter. Changing those procedures to TRMS would require a lot of work, and entail some risk, so those customers would just as soon not change the procedure.(FWIW, John Fluke was a Navy technician, so military environments are something Fluke has been focused on from day 1.)Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 10:39:57 pmUmm, okay? What's your point. I didn't say the 189 specifically, I said "models", which they do indeed make, like the 287/289.Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 10:39:57 pm**yawn**

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 02:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 04, 2019, 09:10:06 pmNobodysaid "MAX" was exclusive to Boeing. What we all expressed incredulity about was that anyone would choose tobeginusing MAX in a product nameafterthe 737 MAX grounding (March 2019).Apple, for example, began using Max (in the iPhone XS Max) in late 2018 (just before the first crash), and continued it this year with the 11 Pro Max, in what I consider to be a series of unusually inelegant product names.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 10:49:20 pm
content: Has anyone spotted a "28-11 to 87V MAX upgrade conversion kit" on Ebay or Ali yet?$20 to $30 would be reasonable for a decent quality meter shelland just re-use the same amber/yellow/orange holster that has no markingsThe new OHL produced meter shell may feature metal screw posts to entice sales from fence sittersand as a side bonus > help to keep the meter fairly intact in a real world CAT 6 styled-BANG!-

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 08:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 08, 2019, 10:49:20 pmAll you need is a label that says "87V MAX True RMS Multimeter" and stick it on the 28II.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 10:34:02 pm
content: In the meantime, whilst everyone awaits Ebay/Ali sellers to oblige with said 'upgrade' stickers(6 sticker for 2 dollar FREE POST)pop a speck of black electrical tape on the '28-11' part = temporary meter upgrade job doneand it's a reversible 'hack'()

author: rammy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 02:45:17 pm
content: It seems the 87V Max are now released, who's gonna try first

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 02:56:34 pm
content: Quote from: rammy on December 11, 2019, 02:45:17 pmFor $450 US they should be kissing me when trying to sell me an 87V with  printed on the front. If you can pick up a 'used' Keysight U1242C for $225 US on the eBay Keysight store then that would be a much better deal IMHO.

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 04:41:29 pm
content: Quote from: rammy on December 11, 2019, 02:45:17 pmI'm tempted to get one for work, but only because I don't have a meter like the 28 II.Still, I have to pay down some debt and pay off the tool truck bills.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 09:09:02 pm
content: Quote from: rammy on December 11, 2019, 02:45:17 pmNot me, I'll have to sell off both the 28-11 and 87V to afford onePerhaps EEVblog host DJ will test drive one soon?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 10:14:17 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 11, 2019, 02:56:34 pmAs someone who owns both an 87V and a U1252B, it’s a no-brainer: I’d pick the Fluke in a heartbeat even at twice the cost. The Keysight simply cannot compare, despite superior specs. I recognize that the U1242C is a different model designed later, but my understanding is that no Keysight handheld DMMs compare in continuity mode. (The 1252B’s is so slow as to be practically useless.) But above all, there are just the occasional quirks that make me not trust the Keysight 100%, whereas I trust the Fluke implicitly.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 02:05:45 am
content: Tooki, perhaps the Escort designs were lacklustre in this aspect, but the newer U123x, U127x and U128x are as fast as the Flukes. (I don't know the U124x)If you talk about the feel of robustness of the rotary switch, however, I don't think anybody was able to replicate the feel of the 87V and the 179 - even my 189 does not feel that robust.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 07:14:05 am
content: Really? I could be mistaken, but I thought I saw multiple reviews of the U1273A/AX complain that its continuity wasn’t as good as Fluke.As for the rotary switch, it’s definitely not as nice as the 87V, but it’s not what I was thinking of. More things like occasional readings that don’t agree with the Fluke nor any other meters, sometimes even itself.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 07:49:14 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 12, 2019, 02:05:45 amThe rotary switch of one of those crumbled to dust after a few thousand turns in joe's switch rotating machine. The Fluke was like new after 50,000.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 10:27:10 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 12, 2019, 07:49:14 amDamn, that means that, if I twiddle the rotary switch on my Keysight U1242C twice per day, every day, it will only last for another 68 years

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 12:17:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 12, 2019, 10:27:10 amIf you take out the batteries and put in a very thich box, closed in vacuum and without any kind of light, it will last for eternity and be discovered a Thousand Million years away for the next civilization who will roam this planet.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 02:14:10 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 12, 2019, 10:27:10 amThe Keysight's indent spring was indeed damaged around 2K cycles. 2000 cycles / 2 cycles a day or 1000 days. / 365 days per year, that's 2.75 years. I had tried to contact Keysight a few times but they never responded. This is why I never ran another Keysight product.I have not tested a lot of meters but of the few I have looked at, that Chinese made Fluke 17B+ leads the pack.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 02:36:21 pm
content: Since there is now a Keysight rep here on the forums, maybe bring it up with him?? 2000 cycles seems insanely short for a name-brand product.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 03:29:17 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 12, 2019, 02:36:21 pmThis section of the video clearly shows the cracks on the detent spring. If you watch the first minute or so of this video, you can hear the difference as the detent spring failed. I pretty much gave up on Keysight, but you are more than welcome to point them to this video if you like.https://youtu.be/z9732OYPRx8?t=329

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 06:04:19 pm
content: You ran the U123x series, thus I am unsure if the other meters would follow suit on the same way.Quote from: joeqsmith on December 12, 2019, 02:14:10 pmApart from Brymen, who else provided you any assistance "post mortem"? I know Gossen and Fluke didn't but Hioki did, right?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 06:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 12, 2019, 10:27:10 amNo, that's the Fluke...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 06:59:14 pm
content: This meter just came up in another thread:I hadn't seen it before. It's a tiny little Fluke with just about everything ... and they stopped making it.That the Fluke management decide not to make meters like that any more but to rebadge other meters and pretend they're a new "MAX" model tells you everything you need to know about Fluke these days.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 07:53:00 pm
content: Do you get wafers with it?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 11:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on December 12, 2019, 10:27:10 amClose..but that calculation will go south fast if unattended children find itwhilst supervising adults outside are distractedgetting hammered on booze n BBQgabbing about holiday trips, phones, cars, AV money pits, pools, and other 'keeping up appearances' bs/hsfwiw I've dismantled a few abused Fluke selector dials, scraping along nicely loaded with fine sand, metal particles and motor/gear oils pumped in ..and after clean up, very light silicone grease and reassembly,there is no way a blindfolded person could pick the difference between a refurb or new switchTBH my humble refurbs turn smoother and hit home runs much better, EMMV on that.i.e. consider a decent Fluke if clicking about constantly between modes is the thing

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 12:08:29 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 12, 2019, 06:59:14 pmThey are in business to make a return on their investment. If it was a high volume profit driving product they would still make it. Don't assume your wet dream must have meter was a product that was taken off the market out of spite... they are not a charity and I strongly suspect they not interested in the prestigious position as the lowest cost hobby meter.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 12:13:33 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 13, 2019, 12:08:29 amIt's not entirely unlikely they killed it and replaced it with something simpler because it was eating into the higher cost model's share. Too good a deal isn't in a company's interest if they're trying to milk their portfolio.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 12:30:54 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 13, 2019, 12:13:33 amThat is also quite true, but that's how business kind of works. Investing where the return makes sense.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 02:15:29 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 12, 2019, 06:04:19 pmTPI (Test Products International ), ExTech, BK and Brymen have all been helpful. Fluke did talk with me about their meters and they did allow me to rip and release the 97 scopemeter video into public domain. I also spoke with Klein Tools. My dealing with Gossen USA was bad. After they lied about what had happened, I would never deal with them again but at least they answered my emails. Hioki and Keysight would not return any of my emails. UNI-T did write me once and offered to send me some meter to look at. After I explained what I was doing on the channel, they never wrote back.As for running the meters, the only company that has expressed any interest has been Brymen.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 03:15:21 am
content: The Fluke rotary switch does have a few patents. 'Digital multimeter having enhanced rotary switch assembly'US 8093516andUS 8946571to show a couple.I noticed Danaher (Shanghai) Industrial Instrumentation Technologies R&D Co., Ltd., Shanghai (china) has some patents for the ornamental design of a DMM. US D744,361 SIt looks like an ANENG multimeter lol.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 06:18:06 am
content: Probably because Zotek (the maker of the Aneng meters) clearly copies many aspects of Fluke’s styling, in particular the Fluke 101. In fact, the Aneng 8000 series is actually Zotek’s 100 series — they even copied the model number 101 for the first one.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 06:29:44 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 13, 2019, 12:30:54 amInvesting is the one thing Fluke doesn't seem to be doing any more.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 07:54:42 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 13, 2019, 12:08:29 amMore true with every day.Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 13, 2019, 12:08:29 amThe expensive part of that meter (or any meter) would be the R&D. The R&D was already done.If that meter was removed from the lineup it was probably because the bang:buck ratio was too high and was hurting the profits of their more overpriced meters.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 11:15:22 am
content: Or, if one is less conspiratorially inclined, maybe they discontinued it because it didn’t sell well enough to be worthwhile.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 11:27:27 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 13, 2019, 11:15:22 amWhat a normal company in a competitive market would do is improve it until it sells.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 01:06:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 13, 2019, 11:27:27 amOnly if you’re losing sales to a competing manufacturer’s product. If you’re losing sales of it to a different model of your own, then you just discontinue it, since you’re still getting a sale.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 02:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 13, 2019, 01:06:56 pma) You mean like Brymen? My best meter is a $175 Brymen, I'm never gonna spend $450 on a Fluke, not while Brymen are around. Fluke don't want my money?b) You're in a nine page thread where one of the main themes is that Fluka can't touch a single feature of the 87V because so many huge contractors depend on it and couldn't possibly switch to anything else, no matter how cheap.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 03:31:27 pm
content: Bluntly: no, they don’t want your money. Fluke doesn’t go for price-sensitive customers. It’s a perfectly valid business decision that no doubt was made by accountants who can calculate what makes more sense for them.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 03:33:47 pm
content: As an aside, the bitching and moaning and whining in this thread reminds me why I think that accounting and economics are things everyone should learn the basics of in school. The absence thereof is plainly evident in this thread.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 04:10:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 13, 2019, 03:31:27 pmApart from the millions of people who buy the Fluke 101, the Fluke 15B+, the Fluke 17B+ ... and all those other "Asian" meters.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 04:49:08 pm
content: Noone expects you to drop $450 on an 87V model unless you have the cash. If you don't or would rather spend that kinda money on more important things just get a secondhand one like everyone else.The most I've spent on a meter so far is $115 for an 87V in good condition. Prior to that I brought a grubby 87V for $55, it took a fair amount of work but came up nice (see below).

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 04:55:31 pm
content: Here is a video of the Fluke 111 which is very similar to the 112 but missing the back light. If they were still making these they would likely need to update the LCD and backlighting, it's a bit dated now, otherwise it's a tough little meter.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 08:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 13, 2019, 03:33:47 pmMarketing does stretch things. Always has. It's just now people can call out the bullshit, or at least try to before they drive the brand off a cliff.NO! Not the sand from installing solar roadways! In my8022B !

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 09:51:39 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 13, 2019, 03:31:27 pmQuote from: tooki on December 13, 2019, 03:33:47 pmAccountants, bean counters and investards can sit on their Casio calculator till the cows come home planning turnover magic,but it's not the 1980/90s anymore when that mindset had a chance to workNowadays, ANY established brand can die in the ass if and when their bad corporat attitude and flogging same/meh products becomes obviousand goes viral on the internet in general chat, not just Youtube comments and tech forum b!tchingBack on topic: this 28-11 rebadge '87V MAX' clearly indicates screws have rolled under the marketing team table at Fluke HQ..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 09:53:13 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 14, 2019, 09:51:39 amThat'd be the HP12C, not a Casio.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 09:57:02 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 13, 2019, 08:45:08 pmThis guy had a few pipes before rocking up for workffs put the freakin meter in a zipped sandwich bag if you're going to play with it in in a sand pit

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 10:48:17 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 14, 2019, 09:57:02 amThere's no way that meter's not going in the bin after that. The switches will be full of sand, the case will be cracked...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 07:31:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 13, 2019, 04:10:45 pmNonsense. The price-sensitive customer will then say “but I can get an equivalent Uni-T for $29”. No matter what feature set or market, Fluke is never among the cheaper options.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 07:33:45 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 14, 2019, 09:57:02 amDo you have even theslightestinkling of how stupid that statement makes you appear? The point of industrial equipment is that it’s not people “playing” with it. The point is that they’re tools that can withstand the rigors of industrial environments, including (and especially!) the “oopsies”.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 07:35:34 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 14, 2019, 09:51:39 amLOL. Nope, economics and accounting still work just as they did before.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 09:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 14, 2019, 10:48:17 amIf that meter went to trash after that event I couldn't tell, but one of the reasons they moved to a rotary switch was exactly due to the rotary being easier to avoid ingress of water and other contaminants.Obviously that, if this change was done in days of social media, there would be a thread like this bitching, moaning and blaming the bean counters for actually using a cheaper solution.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 09:51:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 14, 2019, 07:33:45 pmFor starters, that's not a rebadged 28-11 aka 87V MAX , or 28-11 EX in the photo above (from floobydust) Fluke meters that stand half a chance to quote"withstand the rigors of industrial environments"much less a sand dunking by a clueless worksite knuckledragger, perhaps on the turps and or weed the night before,please note that there are NO LEADS plugged into that meterYes yes, sand dunked meters may work 'fine' for while, but it's downhill all the way from that pointOnce moisture and rough/fine particle sand, and metal grinding crap gets into those switches and or rotary tracks, it's service overhaul time,or as Fungus above pointed out > thebindue to intermittent operation or unreliable readingsMeter users that work on or near the sea/ocean can't afford a salt water splash or sand rompand don't expect long term miracles from quick fix compressed air blowouts, which may 'push' the problem plus moisture/condensation even further into the meter.Would you risk your life or employee safety using a half knackered meter in that state ?i.e one dip or two in that pictured sand and most meters won't perform as they should unless pulled apart, cleaned and finely lubed.What's your experience using meters in hard core industrial environments,and have you had to service multimeters crippled due to dust/sand switches and dry/bridging tracks etc?I have pulled apart and restored operations on 87V, 1520 and some LEM gear that were write offs and now working as new and perfect cal specand go easy on the insults too mate, I fell for that baiting thing a handful here like to sport a couple of times,unfortunately there isn't going to be a hat trick on that

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 11:35:39 pm
content: I remember the quality of these forums before the infamous sand wars of late 2019.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2019, 08:31:53 am
content: I found anold comparison chart,to better show the applications for each Fluke DMM that Fortive forgot. The 87V MAX makes no sense aside from changing over to the 28II pc board.Digikey USA no longer lists the 87V MAX? Digikey Canada no longer sells any Fluke products? Must have recently happenedAnd the USA site is newly carrying Owon, Tenma brand DMM's for cheap.That vintage ad I thought funny because it's so obvious what John Fluke's values were back then, and the role of sand. I was also surprised the 802x manuals had some heart in it:Dear Customer:Congratulations! We at Fluke are proud to present you with the Model 8022B Multimeter. This instrument represents the very latest in integrated circuit and display technology. As a result, the end product is a rugged and reliable instrument whose performance and design exhibit the qualities of a finely engineered lab instrument.To fully appreciate and protect your investment, we suggest you take a few moments to read the manual. As always, Fluke stands behind your 8022B with a full 2 year warranty and a worldwide service organization. If the need arises, please don't hesitate to call on us.Thank you for your trust and confidence.John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 08:24:53 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 14, 2019, 07:31:25 pmThe Venn diagram of "price sensitive" and "wants a decent meter" has an overlap.Not everybody is clueless enough to think a Fluke 15B+ and a Uni-T are "equivalent".I think the Fluke 17B+ is a very good meter but if I compare the features with an equivalent price Brymen then personally I'm not buying the Fluke. YMMV.Fluke are still manufacturing the 15B+ and 17B+ though so that harpoons all your theories. TheyDOwant money from price sensitive customers.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 08:33:23 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 16, 2019, 08:24:53 amI wonder if the PCB's are still the same like 15/17B were ?$30 more for just a couple of extra buttons ?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 11:45:39 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 16, 2019, 08:24:53 amNo, you’re literally proving MY point and discrediting yours: you’re saying you’d buy the Brymen instead of the 17B+. Every way you cut it, you’re saying the Fluke is too expensive and you’ll buy something else. So... price sensitive.And sure, tons of people will buy the Uni-T over the “equivalent” Fluke. Tons of people either have modest needs, or don’t know that they actually should have a better meter. So they see a cheaper meter with the superficially same feature set and buy that instead.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 11:57:15 am
content: Sigh; maybe we should have another 10 pages on what 'better' means?Everyone is price sensitive to a point but Fluke do currently seem to be selling less well-engineered products and applying a price premium based on their reputation.A quality meter is simply one that meets the user's requirements; using that definition, my Aneng AN8008 is a quality meter and it only cost me $16 US (+ $10 for some decent silicone leads).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 01:51:54 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 16, 2019, 11:45:39 amNo, you’re literally proving MY point and discrediting yours: you’re saying you’d buy the Brymen instead of the 17B+. Every way you cut it, you’re saying the Fluke is too expensive and you’ll buy something else. So... price sensitive.I'm not saying I'm not price sensitive, I freely admit that.I'm saying Flukeismaking cheap(ish) meters while you're claiming they're not at all interested in price-sensitive customers.Quote from: tooki on December 16, 2019, 11:45:39 amAaaaand... right back down the big snake to the start.Question: Why do they even bother making the 101, the 15b+, the 17B+, etc. According to you they must be selling zero units due to competition from Uni-T so they should have discontinued those lines years ago to concentrate on the $400 meter market.Instead we see the 15B being replaced by the 15B+, the 17B being replaced by the 17B+, a whole new model - the 18B+, etc.Where do they fit into your world vision?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 02:25:40 pm
content: You’re not understanding me. As I’ve elucidated already, it’s not aboutabsoluteprice, it’s about price for a given feature set. A customer who needs 4.5 digits and a particular feature set isn’t going to be looking at the 3.5 digit models, for example. But they will look at different 4.5 digit meters and compare their feature sets, and the ones who want more bang for the buck will buy something other than Fluke, while the ones who are less price sensitive will buy the Fluke.Analogy: when shopping for a vehicle, $50K is cheap for a V8 sports car, and expensive for a compact sedan. So “price sensitive” might mean someone who spends $50K for a sports car, or $20K on a sedan.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 07:54:14 pm
content: Value might be a better word.Fluke brand quality, reliability, safety and support, limited lifetime warranty are top values for some users.Others users want low price and lots of counts, extra features. It doesn't matter that the safety approvals are fake, warranty, reliability are not there at all, in the case of chinese DMM's.Relevance to the 87V MAX is upping the price $100 for the IP67 feature, yet the 27,28III already have that as Fluke's harsh environment product offering.Relevance to the 87V MAX is its antique feature set that Keysight, Brymen, Zotek, Uni-T and many other manufacturers are crushing.Fortive is asleep at the wheel- this is why I'm bitching that they wasted piles of cash getting new injection moulds, testing, marketing for a giant nothingburger product release.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 09:54:37 pm
content: For sure different customers prioritize different characteristics. This simple fact seems to be beyond the comprehension of many here.What new molds?It’s the same meter.They just needed to silkscreen one part differently. I speculate that the higher drop rating was likely achieved by supporting with glue whatever part broke off in drop tests of the 28II.I really don’t understand why you all feel so attacked by Fluke rereleasing the same thing with a different name. It’s not even the first time Fluke has sold the same product at the same time under two different model numbers. (The 23 and 77 are the same meter, just in different color housings.) It boggles the mind that this bothers you all so much.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 11:00:51 pm
content: Then there is the Fluke 87IV, 89, 187, 189 model shuffling and Fluke 75 to 77 hack. Criminals!A good test when comparing brands/models is consider if both were the same price, which one would you want? Then consider is the actual price difference worth it for you? If you are wanting Fluke top shelf but are buying Aliexpess then that is a budgeting problem not Flukes fault.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 12:08:50 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 14, 2019, 09:51:31 pmYes, my first 87 bought in the very early 90's went to every imaginable shit hole in the world and suffered this problem as a result. Stripping the meter works the first few time but I eventually had to replaced it.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 12:14:06 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 16, 2019, 08:33:23 amLadies and Gentlemen, place your betsTear down time, who has these models for a perv?Plizza you posta foto here, tanka you very much

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 03:45:32 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 17, 2019, 12:14:06 amFluke already done that before with the PCB of the 50 series II thermometers, where the PCB is exactly the same and by changing some resistors around the equipment would recognised itself as a different model. To be sincere that's a very good way of saving money on development, using the same base and just populating what is missing depending of the equipment in question:https://xdevs.com/article/fluke_51ii/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 05:19:57 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on December 17, 2019, 03:45:32 amThis is done all over. Tek did it with many of their scopes, the entire TDS3000 series for example is capable of 500MHz but was sold in several models all the way down to only 100MHz at a substantial price difference.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 06:20:02 am
content: They're going to discontinue the 87V (or the 28II) because the 87V MAX is pretty much both. That's using logic to make sense of this stupidity.Using emotions to make sense of this stupidity, after crying over the nothingburger that Fluke/Fortive rolled out, grab a pitchfork and yell at them to come with something new, innovative, or even competitive. But they don't have to.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 09:49:00 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 17, 2019, 06:20:02 amAnd you and me know perfectly well that they didn't even think about that even once since we, "power users" don't are the market that they want to cater. Most of us don't even buy their equipments at full price, we look for Used/NOS deals instead.I can say that my opinion stays the same, but with all the conversation back and forward it kinda changed a little, in regards of understanding and knowing my own place in what a company promotes their own equipments.My needs of bigger, better, newer is not what they look for. The extra add in functionality for the same price or a good price/features metric.

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 06:28:18 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 17, 2019, 06:20:02 amI can see the 28 II being discontinued, due to the similarity.The 87V Max is more like the 28II than the normal 87V.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 02:00:00 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 17, 2019, 05:19:57 amYes it's done all over. My reply made it look it was the first time I saw that and was a surprise, I should had written in a less ambiguous way.

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 03:43:02 am
content: I've been searching on the forum for discussions about diode voltage for multimeters, and I spent some time poring over this particular spec on Wytnucls' spreadsheet. For many meters, the diode test voltage is the same as that which it puts out when doing continuity tests. This voltage seems to have crept up and up in production models over the years, with the 87V (whether you wish to label it as an electrician's meter or an electronics meter, it's clearly marketed toward industrial work) leading the pack of "favorites" at almost 8 volts. Five volts seems to be the norm, looking at Flukes other high-end offerings. The rest are considerably lower. Despite the need to test LED's, an "electronics meter" in the hands of a neophyte shouldn't be damaging sensitive components either. If you look at Keysight's offerings, for example, only a few are subjecting continuity checks or diode tests to even half of the voltage the 87V does. The 28-II, on the other hand, only does 2.8V. Does anyone feel that the lower test voltage might be a selling point for the 87V MAX as a electronics meter? Or am I way off base here?Edited as an afterthought to add: My Simpson 260 supplies ~9.5V on its dedicated continuity setting. I read that some of the Triplett analog meters supplied 14V.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 06:10:01 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on December 17, 2019, 03:45:32 amFluke have been making identical models since the original 70 series DMM. Just a single link on the PCB turned your model 75 into a 77

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 06:25:04 am
content: Exactly. And as I’ve already said, they also sold the 77 in a different color housing as the 23.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 08:08:52 am
content: Quote from: Johnboy on December 18, 2019, 03:43:02 amIt's for a reason.Quote from: Johnboy on December 18, 2019, 03:43:02 amI don't recall any threads saying "My Fluke87V destroyed XXXX", do you?The reason is that the output is current limited - that voltage will drop instantly the moment you connect it to something.Quote from: Johnboy on December 18, 2019, 03:43:02 amFor me it's the opposite: I would never buy one because of that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 08:19:56 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 18, 2019, 08:08:52 amI can remember when digital meters had a "Low Ohms" feature that limited the resistance compliance voltage so it didn't turn on PN junctions in-circuit.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 10:11:21 am
content: Quote from: Johnboy on December 18, 2019, 03:43:02 amThe Fluke 87V in diode mode outputs 7.29V on both my meters when measured with 10M impedance. When I measure the 87V with the LoZ 3k impedance of my Fluke 117 it measures about 2.6Vaccording to this threadthe 87V is sourcing about 1mA of current in diode mode.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 04:09:38 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on December 18, 2019, 10:11:21 amie, It's current limited.If you measure a 300 Ohm resistor instead of that 3k resistor you'll see 0.26V.If you measure a 30 Ohm resistor instead of that 300 Ohm resistor you'll see 0.026V.etc.The manual says that the short circuit current is "0.6 mA typical" on diode test range, "<200uA" on resistance range.I'm surprised nobody went into that thread to set it straight.

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 04:35:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 18, 2019, 08:19:56 amI wondered about this.So far, I've only see a "Low ohms" description in the manual for the Fluke 80s (or at least the 87v and 88v), saying to put it in High Res mode, then select a low range when on ohms. Any idea if that works the same?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 05:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 18, 2019, 08:08:52 amThe older VOMs used higher voltages on the low scale ohms. I damaged several of my dad's FND560 LED displays by testing them on our ICE 680R - it was like testing matches!(he was sooooo mad when he found out... My 8yo self will never forget)Quote from: EEVblog on December 18, 2019, 08:19:56 amI remember that as well.BTW, your U1272A probably has a very low-volt ohms output - my U1273A sure has it. It is great for in-circuit measurements (I explored thisherewith the U1282A, U1273A, 189 and UT61E - sorry, in Portuguese).

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 06:08:49 pm
content: It was in the 80's DMM's all inherently had low V ohms, so you could measure resistance in-circuit without semiconductors getting in the way. All the techs knew that was how DMM's worked. It works but at some point that aspect got lost I guess. I still have Beckman/Wavetek DMM's for that. Diode-test was for when you needed high compliance voltage.This is all about the loss of the 9V battery with Fluke old analog IC's. No way to spin it for Fluke that the lower compliance voltage is a "feature".Your Simpson 260 ohms Rx1 is 1.5V at 125mA that does damage semiconductors but works great "out in the wild" where high ohms test-current bites through oxides and organics on electrical connections.Comparisons of 87V MAX to anything like 87V or 28IIFluke website does not allow it.Awww. What are you hiding.Another reason for obsoleting the 87V is the newer PCB layout does have improved HV spacings for 61010. Still some mistakes- but a bit better compared to previous models.

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 07:28:23 pm
content: Thanks to all for helping me to better understand this. I'm not trying to hijack the thread; it seems to me that since the diode test is one of the most glaring differences in the specs between the 87V and 87V MAX, it's begging the question "feature or bug"? I had hoped to determine what really is a safe voltage for doing continuity testing, and the answer may be that "it depends on the tolerances of the individual components in the circuit", that there are no hard and fast rules or overarching solution. I understand that current limiting on the meter's end to 1 mA tends to discourage damage, but when I looked at the thread linked above, I found it confusing.There does not seem to be a consensus even among manufacturers what a suitable test voltage should be. If it's strong enough to light a blue LED, does that mean it's also too strong to get away with making an error in a test measurement of sensitive devices? There are no threads where someone complains that their 87V fried something... but since damage to semiconductors (whether by the meter or ESD) may not show up right away, the last thing a beginner will likely ask about a failed component is whether the meter could be the culprit. I think that's what David Hess seemed to be getting at in the last post in that thread. Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 07:36:11 pm
content: Quote from: Johnboy on December 18, 2019, 07:28:23 pmRight.Quote from: Johnboy on December 18, 2019, 07:28:23 pmThe voltage is a red herring because the output is acurrentsource, not a voltage source.The "voltage" number in the manual is only themaximumvoltage that it can go to on a high resistance circuit. On a low resistance circuit it simply won't go that high.The output is locked to 0.6mA, use Ohms Law to calculate the voltage you'll get in the DUT.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 07:38:25 pm
content: Johnboy, there are numerous threads on this matter to hunt out and one with some actual measurements:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-with-low-continuity-test-voltage/

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 08:25:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 18, 2019, 07:36:11 pmYes, that is what I had found confusing. Thanks for being patient enough with me to explain more than once.Quote from: floobydust on December 18, 2019, 06:08:49 pm

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 10:26:31 pm
content: 'Low Ohms' labelling on multi function meters in the last few years can mean anything..if not sure I'll test with another meter with a steady-ish 10 meg and 3k (Low-Z) inputand note what auto and manual range puts out what, and throw in a short or two.@ Noobs and overconfident knowalls: Watch out for 'Low Ohms' on insulation testersyou don't want to be playing around sensitive electronicals with an insulation tester's 'Low Ohm' setting,most units do about 6 volts OCV at a Short Circuit Current of 200ma, 0 to 40 ohms on the meter display etc = IIRC as it's been a whileSome models have a Continuity mode with low current, BUT kick in automatically with 200ma if they sense a short or anything lower than 200 to 40 ohms etcThere is no warning btw, that's just how they work, handy for unpowered electrical wiring tests and the like,not so good for sensitive electronics/components.Fluke 289 has it's own Low Ohm/50 Ohm thingie too, not to be confused with Low-Z parked on the other side,or centrally located Continuity/Buzzer/Ohms/Diode/Nanoseafood(?!) modesQuote Fluke re LOWsetting:"Two terminal 50 ohm range with 1 milliohm resolution, 10 mA source current.Useful for measuring and comparing differences in motor winding resistance or contact resistance."AFAICT many 'not so Low's' are a test mode that sits between a 'standard' low voltage continuity test most are familiar with already, and a high voltage insulation test,but the deceptive titled 'Low Ohms/Low' puts out 200ma DC current at low voltagei.e. If you own a 289, or a bells and whistles AIO multimeter with insulation test modes included, from any manufacturer, watch out for that!As per DJ's comment above, it pays to keep a whimpy meter or two hanging around that won't hammer in-circuit components,or send too big a DC BANG! through a powered up (oops..) audio systemBesides, isn't it fashion now to buy an ESR meter for checking dud caps in circuit,and score a poorer techs Low Ohms feature as a side bonus?Correction/s to this comment are welcome if I've stuffed upEDIT:Member Wytnucls quote/posted at >www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-with-low-continuity-test-voltage/msg477081/#msg477081"If you want a Fluke, the cheap 101 has an open voltage of 0.53V and a test current of 178uA. The buzzer stops above 80 Ohms."Nice to know, I only use the 101 for the buzzer, AC/DCand suss situations where an expensive meter has no business going to first..

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 04:33:45 am
content: 87V schematic the current-source DMM ASIC LTC984 (SSOP36) runs off +/-2.5V from two Vregs off 9V battery. Seems to be 5V coming in to it.87 DMM IC 921606 (100 pin) ran off 9V-diode drop.87V MAX/28II... Must have a boost-converter on the board, I see one.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 07:29:20 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 19, 2019, 04:33:45 amThat's probably how they got the extra battery life - by not throwing away half the electrons.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 07:40:43 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 18, 2019, 10:26:31 pmThat thread is completely bass-ackwards, stop quoting itWorrying about the diode test voltage of a multimeter is like worrying that if you power some 5V logic chips with a 5V, 200A power supply, that the power supply is going to somehow forcing all 200A through those chips and burn them up. It isn't, Ohm's law prevents it. The number "200A" is only the maximum that it might supply if given the chance.Multimeter diode tests are a current source, not a voltage source. The "voltage" number quoted is only themaximumthat it can supply.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 08:22:03 am
content: Quoted that thread this one time about the 101 it for those of us chasing a cheap/er 'lower' ohm meter with'open voltage of 0.53V and a test current of 178uA' specsI was not aware of that spec, assuming the meter 'weak' in that regard due to the price point, without considering the advantagesThat thread was useful to me, perhaps others here toofwiw if I need a handheld diode barn door kicker, there's the 87V and 8060Aor a jerry rig car or motorbike battery to get a Lilliput style LED Rave thing going

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 10:31:33 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 19, 2019, 07:40:43 amActually, you do have to consider the compliance voltage (as it's called) in some cases. Because the full open compliance voltage, if high enough can potentially damage sensitive unprotected circuits.Sure it might only be able to supply a mA or two but that might actually be enough to do some damage in some extreme cases.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 10:38:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2019, 10:31:33 amThat and a potentially reversed polarity, don't ask how I know.

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 06:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 18, 2019, 06:08:49 pmI just measured the Simpson 260-8P's current in continuity mode-- 16.3 mALuckily it's not my only meter, although it's been my go-to since it got here.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 07:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2019, 10:31:33 amThere's a topic for a video - see how long it takes for the voltage to drop down. Try to find a component that can be hurt by a Fluke 87V, etc.I'm betting the settling time is measured in nanoseconds (give or take the capacitance in the probe leads).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 07:54:24 pm
content: Fungus, tying your two comments:Quote from: Fungus on December 19, 2019, 07:05:24 pmQuote from: Fungus on December 19, 2019, 07:40:43 amThat is something I have seen in the past. The absurd low impedance of a voltage source (200A/5V in your example) caused damage exactly due to the extreme slew rate that caused excessive inrush in specific parts of the input voltage regulator. Obviously that was quite difficult to track and, obviously, re-test and correct the problem.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 10:15:09 pm
content: coin toss gambling 'damage' issue possibility aside, having a 'weaker' meter in this regard so as not to switch stuff on in circuit as DJ pointed out, can come in handyI'll be running through all my meters when time permits, with fresh and tired batteries, and take notes on all the auto and manual ranges into different resistances and shortsI've done it before, to see which meters kicked ass in diode mode and Continuity and buzzer speedand LED disco brightness levelsThis time I'll scribble it all down on paper scraps, so I don't forget most of itagainHey yeah, a video of this stuff above would be great if anyone has serious gear, expertise and Youtube channeland if an 87V can do damage or if the 28-11 (pre-87V MAX rebadged model) is better in that regardor did Fluke drop the 28-11 diode voltage/current because it runs on 6 volt 4 x AA battery set instead of a single 9 volt batteryHas anyone tried a 28-11 with a 9v battery, or better (safer) still a limited current regulated PSU ramped up SLOWLY ?or does it just flash and clap out at 8+ volts, and no performance difference

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 05:07:17 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 20, 2019, 10:15:09 pmSeconded. There is some conflicting information on the web. I'm aware that I'm working with outdated equipment, and I'm aware of my own ignorance (for the most part), but it seems that there might be "a trap for young players" out there that should be addressed, even for those with more modern/expensive industrial-grade tools.

author: Per Hansson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 09:56:48 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 20, 2019, 10:15:09 pmThe 28-II uses 3 x 1.5v AA batteries, so it runs at 4.5vI havetried itwith Energizer Lithium batteries and saw no I'll effect:Those have a open circuit voltage as high as 1.8vBut now I have had it replaced under warranty and am on the fence about the safety of doing so.So if anyone knows how the 28-II regulates battery power in depth I'm all ears.I tried asking Fluke but the answer was as expected:To conform to the listed standards it needs to use the listed batteries on the unit, which are alkaline.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 10:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on December 21, 2019, 09:56:48 amThanks for the correctionI assumed it 'logically'?! ran with 4 x AA like some other models in the stable,I haven't opened mine in ages, actually since I got it to check for crusty batteries and leaks > it just keeps goingwhich kicks in another question, why not 4 or 6 AA instead of 3 ?Fluke thinking the user will use the 4th battery in the blister pack to revive the kitchen clock?So IIRC fresh 1.5v rated alkalines kick at 1.65v (?) so 3 gets one 4.95 to 5 volts tops3 lithiums at 1.8 volts each will hit 5.4 volts, maybe 5.5?Surely the meter circuitry has a 10 percent forgiveness factor, seeing as the voltage can only drop over time, current draw and battery shelf life leakageAnyways, please don't kill an expensive 28-11 to confirm my ghetto math come guesstimate risk taking

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 03:51:17 am
content: My guess is that the digital circuitry is running from 3.3V, so 3x AA batteries is a logical choice. The extra voltage of 4 cells would just get burned up in a linear regulator.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 09:08:37 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2019, 03:51:17 amPlus they need a lot more space, might not fit inside.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:11:02 am
content: Other Fluke meters with same or smaller dimensions, with more action inside, take 4 x AA (189, 1587)or 6 x AA (289)as well as their Process Meters that output current tooNot forgetting the 28-11/87V MAX are an obese tough body version of the 87V,so space should not be a problemSome CAD wanking going on during R+D perhaps, to save a dime on plastic molding and a battery terminal?or a design decision to drop the diode voltage?or a stuffup to maximise battery runtime, forgetting to check if any negatives

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:12:58 am
content: My lowly 15B uses just 2 AA's and they seem to last forever.

author: Marco1971
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:54:54 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 22, 2019, 10:11:02 amAgree..."stuffup to maximise battery runtime" to meet 800 hours spec. (without backlight on).

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 08:03:23 pm
content: Only inductor on board the 28II pics is L7 100uH. The kind that break off a pcb after a drop...Nearby IC's:U24 TPS77050 5V LDO marking code PCYIU26 TPS77033 3.3V LDO marking code PCXIU17 SOT-223 marking code T5 51 not sure what it doesU8 LT1790 2.5V ref (LTPZ)With the 5V LDO there must be a boost converter and likely why the battery life is extended.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 09:45:43 pm
content: Maybe it has a Batteroo IC in it? This is one place where it could work and the inductor is a really tiny SMD.

author: DiamonDiver
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 02:02:29 am
content: I worked on ships, DMM’s were considered a consumable item, like paper towels. It’s not using the meter in the rain that kills them, it’s the 800 foot walk in salt spray to change a navigation light or dropping it in the bilge. Not everyone treats the gear like it’s theirs and if you haven’t worked on ships you wouldn’t understand how tough the marine world can be on gear.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 03:00:30 am
content: Quote from: Per Hansson on December 21, 2019, 09:56:48 amA hires teardown photo might reveal a lot.I could probably go a few minutes down the road to Fluke HQ oz and get one, but I couldn't be arsed

author: srjaynes49
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2020, 07:16:38 am
content: I’m willing to bet the extra drop durability of the 87-V Max comes from the thickness of the holster. I’m going to do some precise measurements of the actual meters and their holsters and report back.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2021, 01:04:03 pm
content: I asked my new worker to pick a meter so we would buy for him out of these 289, 287, 87V, 87V max and he picked the 87V. He research online and said the 87V max looks cheap. For me the 87V max doesn't look cheap but doesn't look as pretty as the 87V.