A new affordable thermal imager - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 07:33:53 am
content: Hi!8 months ago, a friend of mine and myself started a project called C-THERMAL - it is going to be the first smart thermal imagerwww.c-thermal.comHowever, I just wanted to give you a short hello - I really like this forum because of it`s reasonable discussions about electronics stuff.For those who want to ask which core we use: yes, it`s FLIRs Lepton and every single picture on our website is taken with our working prototypesIf you are really interested, I`m also going to make a short video clip of our hardware design within the next weeks.I would really appreciate any feedback from you!Cheers, Andi

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 07:41:39 am
content: Nice. Which Lepton did you use?

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 07:50:22 am
content: It`s the Lepton 2 - the one with 80x60 px resolution. At the moment, the Lepton 3 is not yet available to OEMs.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 08:01:04 am
content: An affordable thermal imager for occasional spotting of hot components on a PCB or drafty windows at home would certainly be nice. How affordable are we talking?Also, will you be sending eval units to folks like Martin Lorton for comparative testing?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 08:05:49 am
content: Quote from: Andreas_Thermal on March 17, 2016, 07:33:53 amHow do you justify that claim ? In what way is this smarter than any thermal imager ?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 08:15:03 am
content: Looks interesting. What is the planned price? Does it have a tripod mount screw?

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 08:45:26 am
content: Our planned price was 298USD (or for the EU - 298€) - but at the moment it seems to be that we can sell it a bit cheaper than planned.A review by Martin Lorton would be very nice - but we don`t have that much working prototypes ready to ship yet.Regarding the "smart": Our automatic detection of damp masonry and heat bridges works through a combination of the following sensor data: air pressure, air temperature, air humidity and of course, the thermal imaging core. The automatic detection takes place within the camera firmware - there is no need for a smart phone. For taking thermal panoramas, we have also integrated an orientation sensor. We have also planned to support our camera over a long time period with over the air firmware updates.The combination of the mentioned things above is our definition of a smart thermal imager.PS: of course, an automatic detection of damp mansonry respectively mildew hazard is a pretty easy thing, as you may imagine, it`s not that easy with heat bridges, but it`s manageable.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 09:06:51 am
content: Kinda surprised nobody brought this one up before (video by mikeselectricstuff):

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 09:21:01 am
content: Quote from: poorchava on March 17, 2016, 09:06:51 amI'm a bit surprised it's taken so long for anyone else to do it...

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 09:31:02 am
content: Yes, of course I have been inspired a bit by mikeselectricstuff (by the way: I love to watch your videos, especially the extreme teardown of a Lepton core).

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 09:58:07 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2016, 09:21:01 amWe were eagerly waiting for youbut the postman never come.

author: TinkerFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 10:03:50 am
content: Nice bit of kit.If you get it through kickstarter though...

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 10:09:45 am
content: The fundamental problem with all of these home insulation type thermal cameras is that they have limited practical use in small electronics due to their focal length and/or the fixed lens configuration. Really, something which is useful for inspecting your house metres away is not going to be useful to distinguish between two small and adjacent mosfets, one of which is maybe 10C hotter than the other while sitting next to a hot CPU.If someone comes up with an imager which has a focal length more like a macro lens for less than $1000, that is some real novelty in my opinion.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 10:16:15 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2016, 08:05:49 amMike, "smart" in today's IoT lingo often means that it needs a smartphone to actually do anything ...So it essentially means exactly the opposite - dumb.Even though the OP's gizmo seems to be able to function without the phone as well (unlike Seek).

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 11:00:31 am
content: QuoteI´m also working on a case design with focus adjustment (the Leptons lens shape offers it - looks a bit like a gearwheel).Made some images with a very close distance to a PCB:

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 12:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: Andreas_Thermal on March 17, 2016, 08:45:26 amIf this is working ok, then you could also implement super-resolution:

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 04:16:43 pm
content: http://www.em.avnet.com/en-us/design/featuredpromotions/Pages/FLIR-Thermal-Imaging-Breakout-Board.aspx?cmp=na-152-flr-ds-201603&ed2f26df2d9c416fbddddd2330a778c6=hekyppsykb-hjkeewa$39.99 in single quantities,

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 05:42:27 pm
content: Plus $175-183 for the camera module.http://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store/em/EMController?langId=-1&storeId=500201&catalogId=500201&term=lepton&x=0&y=0&searchType=&advAction=&N=0&Ne=100000&action=products

author: OrBy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 09:42:12 pm
content: Are you going to be using the shuttered or non-shuttered cores?Is there any chance that the LUT's or color pallets may be able to be customized? (a night vision green to black would be nice)Will video streaming over USB/UVC be an option?Pictures only or will it be able to record video? (I personally would take video recording over other features like wireless charging)

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2016, 10:24:17 pm
content: Nice project, but I would argue that the first price point you mentioned is still too close to the Flir One G2 with Lepton 3 (or even the Seek) for your product to be competitive. If you can hit $189, with a future Lepton 3 version that's priced slightly lower than the Flir One G2, then you would have a market.

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 06:20:07 am
content: QuoteAt the moment we use the none shuttered versions (25° and 50°). Regarding the LUT`s: nice idea, would be no problem to implement (never thought about this). Video streaming currently only works over WLAN and is not planned to be implemented over USB. It can record pictures and videos (in full 14 Bit thermal resolution) - LUT`s are applied in post processing.QuoteThank you! You are right - at the moment we do everything we can in order to lower the price.

author: OrBy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 02:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: Andreas_Thermal on March 18, 2016, 06:20:07 amI can see having the non-shuttered version being able to make a smaller more robust package - image quality my be a little worse but that's likely a better trade off given the size of the device.Having the ability to use or upload custom LUT's would be a feature that no one else has really done in this price point/space yet so it would be cool - I do hope you look into it. (Attached are a few of my fav LUT's)Since you can record video on device - then not having video over USB is fine in my view.On other question - it looks like your going for quite a small easy to fit in your pocket form factor - is the front of the lepton going to be exposed or are you going to shield it with another lens or recess it a bit?

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 05:29:44 pm
content: I just had to try out one of your gradients which looks very night vision like- As we have 8 Gb of internal memory, your suggestion is really no big issue to implement for usRegarding the window: At the moment the camera lens is recessed by about 1 mm but we have no final decision (yet) about using a window or not - those tiny little things are quite expensive.

author: OrBy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2016, 01:07:10 am
content: Nice!If your looking for more LUT's to play with I posted a file with many in it herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg713511/#msg713511. (not all of them are good but with 8gb of space it sounds like it would be a minimal impact)I can imaging the costs involved with custom thermal parts like lenses could run away on you quickly - if it's reasonably recessed with some sort of gasket to avoid ingress of dust/lint/light moisture I could see that being an workable solution.I look forward to your kickstarter.

author: eren
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 10:56:51 am
content: Excellent project -- I'd be really really interested to use this! Looking forward to the kickstarter.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 11:20:21 am
content: Quote from: Andreas_Thermal on March 18, 2016, 05:29:44 pmAre you looking at germanium, chalcogenide glass or ZnSe? or something else? Do you plan on doing your own calibration of the units, or are you relying on the calibration of the lepton?

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 09:22:41 am
content: QuoteQuoteThank you - nice! Yesterday we did the first take of our crowdfunding campaign video - I had to use your black-green-white gradient for the night vision scene, it looks so nice.QuoteI was looking for ZnSe windows because they are cheaper than the ones made of germanium but I didn`t do to much researching about windows up to now, so I don`t have an idea about the price of chalcogenide glass (i can imagine that this could be also a cheap option for us). At the moment I calibrated each of our prototypes manually, according to this experience, we definitely have to do our own calibration.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 01:47:54 pm
content: For info ZnSe is a relatively soft material. It scratches easily. This is why you do not see it used as lens protectors on commercial cameras. IIRC ZnSe also needs a materials safety warning for the user as it can be toxic.Be very careful how you attach ZnSe, it does not like some adhesives and reactsvwith them.When considering options, it is often a good idea to research how the bigger companies approach the issue of lens protection. An obvious case being fire fighter cameras. They have robust Germanium windows to protect the lens..... Very expensive. The FLIR ONE G2 uses a Chalcogenide glass such as GASIR as it is a good balance of performance and cost. Ask yourself if a lens protector is truly essential with such a small lens ? PCB CCTV board cameras do not bother with such due to small recessed lenses.If needed when working with fluids, to protect against splashes, a thin thermally transparent film may be used as a lens protector. That is what FLIR provides for its industrial users. Just mount the film on a ring that attaches to the camera. The Chinese make auxilliay lenses for mobile phones that attach with magnets and look very neat.Fraser

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 12:12:23 pm
content: Thank you for the information about ZnSe! I never got in touch with a ZnSe lens, and I thought they will survive harder conditions (as far as I know they are mostly used in Co2 laser applications).QuoteThat`s why I didn`t do further research up to now - at the moment our focus is to lower the price of our camera. On thing I can say about the missing window up to now is that I have one of our prototypes in my pocket all day (without any cover) and I never had problems with the lens.I`ll take a look at the thin film you suggested - this sounds promising to meAndreas

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 02:25:48 pm
content: Anreas,The film that is used on commercial thermal camera lens protectors is POLYOLEFIN Shrink Wrap, as used in teh food and cosmetics industry. It is also to be found around some new Audio CD cases.I buy mine from Bee Beautiful (www.beebeautiful.org.uk). It is very cheap stuff.Common thicknesses are 12 and 15 Micron. For thermal cameras, the 12 Micron is best. The effect on the image is more than acceptable.I recommend that the film is attached to some form of ring or frame with glue or other securing mechanism. It is then gently heated with a hair dryer and it shrinks drum tightNo wrinkles to cause image distortions.FLIR sell disposable lens protectors that just clip onto the front of the lens. For a simple POLYOLEFIN item they are very expensive though.The film is easy to find on ebay with a search fro Polyolefin.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20mtrs-Polyolefin-Shrink-Wrap-Film-25-micron-450mm-/351366578838?hash=item51cf148296:g:1GAAAMXQVT9SvXDChttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20m-Polyolefin-Heat-Shrink-Wrap-Film-250mm-500mm-Centrefolded-/272104814150?hash=item3f5ab5f646:g:xEQAAOSwd4tULs~Shttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5m-or-10m-Polyolefin-Heat-Shrinkwrap-Film-15mu-500-1000mm-Centrefolded-/182055746914?var=&hash=item2a635e3d62:m:mr2uAuQtLWMdJXJmD7EKmxwhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13-25-Micron-250-700-mm-Polyolefin-Heat-Shrink-Wrapping-Film-Centre-Folded-/161819677503?var=&hash=item25ad34533f:m:maNrLAg6RzmvbcXPsQGwAKgFraser

author: OrBy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2016, 06:31:19 pm
content: Any chance that this will be up gradable to a 3rd gen Lepton when they start becoming available to the public?(It may even be a suggestion to wait till they are as the higher res would be awesome)

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2016, 10:04:13 am
content: QuoteThank you Fraser for sharing your resources!QuoteTechnically it would be no problem - I also thought about an upgrade solution to the newer core, the only issue for me is that customers have to open the case and from there it can get complicated in terms of warranty handling. Af few months ago as I started the project it was planned to be open source - maybe I`ll get back to this idea when FLIR releases their latest Lepton for OEM use.Cheers,Andreas

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2016, 10:32:42 am
content: Just wanted to give you short update: we have integrated the Lepton 3 core in C-THERMAL, works great!Sorry for the C-THERMAL advertisings in the video, but I also use it for promotional purposes.Checkout the short comparison of Lepton 2 and Lepton 3 image quality:https://youtu.be/HPWR_mpzY9I

author: OrBy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2016, 01:52:35 pm
content: Wow - seeing them side by side like that really highlights how much better the gen 3 core looks!

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 07:45:21 am
content: Shut Up and take my money!Where/When can I buy it?Around 300$ for a unit that does not need a cellphone its perfect for me.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 10:24:52 am
content: I suspect the problem at the moment is sourcing a Lepton 3 core. FLIR does not appear to be making them available to OEM's at the moment.The current cheapest way to obtain a Lepton 3 is to buy a FLIR One Gen 2 camera ! ...... when there is stock available that is.Fraser

author: Andreas_Thermal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 10:43:52 am
content: QuoteHey Trax, we are going to start a crowdfunding campaign on Kickstarter soon - you can register for a notification onwww.c-thermal.com.You can also visit me in Leibnitz or Graz, there I could show you our working prototypesQuoteAccording to my information, we don't have to wait very long until the Lepton 3 gets available to OEM's

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 10:51:20 am
content: @Andreas Thermal,Thanks for the info on the Lepton 3. That is great newsFraser

author: tomas123
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 12:05:09 pm
content: @ Andreas_ThermalHow do you solve the problem of missing radiometric mode of lepton 1 and 3 for temperature measurements?http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/knowledgebase/index.cfm?view=67336Yes, I know that the Flir One is radiometric...see data sheet "8.4.2 Radiometry Enabled"https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/?action=dlattach;attach=206832this "14 Bit output values" are linear to Radiance [W/m²] (with an offset)...and not linear to Temperature "Quote from: tomas123 on October 17, 2015, 05:52:44 pm

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 12:29:55 pm
content: Quote from: Andreas_Thermal on April 30, 2016, 10:43:52 amDoneI was waiting for a Device like that since mikes "prototype".The issue for me with the existing solutions was that they all would require me to buy a new smartphone, USB OTG needed. What I don't want to do as the current one still fulfills all my needs, especially that recently there even was an android 6.0 custom rom for it released.Quote from: Andreas_Thermal on April 30, 2016, 10:43:52 amI'm located in Vienna so to Graz it till be a bit of a long drive, but may be I can find time for that...Or will you be visiting Vienna in near future, for some reasons of Austrian bureaucracy or so?CheersTrax

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 04:57:16 pm
content: QuoteI would recommend extending that idea by adding the radiances calculated for 7500, 8500, 9500, 10500, 11500, 12500, 13500nm as you can also factor in lens transmission and sensor sensitivity.It may change your curve slightly, but you should find that it gives a very good fit 0 - 1000°CBill

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 05:13:57 pm
content: I'm wondering if the range of this lepton sensors can be extended using a filter?Sure you would loose on resolution but if you want look to 300°C i guess you don't need sub 1°C resolution.

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2016, 01:39:17 am
content: Quote from: Trax on April 30, 2016, 05:13:57 pmIf you use a ND filter you shouldn't lose temperature resolution / NETD, you will only lose the ability to make lower temperature measurements (ie. anything too cold will clip the bottom end of the sensor).You will only lose NETD if the sensor is put into some kind of a low gain mode.

author: tomas123
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2016, 05:52:18 am
content: Quote from: Bill W on April 30, 2016, 04:57:16 pmEdit field F29 of the Excel sheet for display another wave lenghts.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2016, 07:01:11 pm
content: Quote from: Andreas_Thermal on March 18, 2016, 05:29:44 pmUse a silicon window like the FLIR One has. FLIR managed to keep that pretty cheap. Alternatively, purchase a used Germanium window (better LWIR transparency than silicon) from eBay. Bet you could find one on there for about $100 or less if you are lucky. If you are trying to keep your price down, you should depend on eBay for your parts. You can get some pretty good deals on there. There may be a scratch or two on it, but as long as it isn't too bad (is near the edge of the window, rather than in the middle of it), and as long as your product isn't used for anything mission critical (like medical, industrial, or military usage) it should be fine. Ordinary consumer products like "point and shoot" digital cameras almost always have some small defects in them (both in the optics, and in the sensor, that's why they are SO CHEAP compared to professional devices like thermal imagers which are NOT aimed at the consumer market, as FLIR products are 100% WITHOUT DEFECT, making them HUGELY expensive). Consumer usage is just more tolerant of those defects than professional usage.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2016, 08:18:15 pm
content: Quoteer no.The ND filter will reduce the radiance from all temperatures just like closing an iris does. With constant system noise your end image MDTD will rise.That is the problem with NeTD, it is a sensor parameter not a camera parameter. It is also abused by many sensor manufacturers, eg FLIR quote NeTD at f/1 and then put a f/1.4 lens on the camera.You could however win a bit with a 10um cut filter (but see Tomas's spreadsheet to sort out radiance to temperature scales)Bill

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2016, 08:27:33 pm
content: QuoteThat is not what I meant. I am suggesting copying the sheet 6 times, set each sheet to the different wavelengths and then sum the radiance result from all the sheets with appropriate transmission / sensitivity factors on a new master sheet.R (total) = a*R(T)(7500) + b*R(T)(8500) + c*R(T)(9500) + d*R(T)(10500) + e*R(T)(11500) + f*R(T)(12500) + g*R(T)(13500)where:R(T)(7500) is the radiance of a black body at temperature T for 7500nm, and assumed representative of the radiance from 7000 to 8000 nm.a - g are the optic transmissions / sensor absorptions for each 1000nm blockI assume zero transmission below 7000 and above 14000Bill

author: tomas123
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2016, 09:14:16 pm
content: sorry, but I think, your approach is unnecessary complexhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_lawThe sensor manufacturers give us a "Peak Spectral Sensitivity" and calibration values are conversion factors for temperature=function(radiance)You don't need special investigations of band with.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2016, 02:18:04 am
content: Sensors are calibrated viewing (typically) 20°C and 40 °C images.Stored factory gain / offset tables convert sensor ADC output to an arbitrary linear-in-radiance scale based on the radiances of the 20° and 40 °C images. This process probably invisible to the user.The 'actual-temperature' images are then calculated using either a measured or calculated conversion curve much as you have plotted. Around ambient a curve for 10.6um will be fine.However when dealing with say 1000°C, so much of the radiant energy is in the lower wavelength areas that you do need to deal with what is essentially 'colour correction'. The FLIR response curve you posted would otherwise result in undereading temperatures for very hot objects.The 7.5 - 8.5um band is 15% of an ambient scenes' radiance (between 7.5 - 14.5um), 18% of a 100°C scene but is 32% of the radiance from a 1000°C scene.A consequence ofhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wien's_displacement_lawregardsBillwww.fire-tics.co.uk

author: tomas123
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2016, 10:49:47 am
content: A great answerMy first thought was, that a necessary ND filter for 1000°C will also move the peak of radiance.But a ND filter is not a wavelength converterWith a ND filter, the camera needs certainly new calibration values for the function Temperature=f(RAW).And Andreas_Thermal hasn't answered to my question, how he calculates this function.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 06:23:48 pm
content: Whats the progress on the project?

author: OrBy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 06:01:19 pm
content: I was hoping to see an update before the end of June when the Kickstarter was suppose to launch. I wonder if they have run into issues or are perhaps waiting to see how the market is going to play out.

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2016, 07:58:32 pm
content: They should probably change their name before starting campaign.C-Thermal sounds almost exactly like Seek Thermal. Only one "K" of difference.