How to get a negative 1000V at 0.1mA? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 01:10:56 pm
content: I got a photomultiplier tube that takes a negative 1000V to drive and takes about 80 uA of current.I need to provide this from a 12V supply.So far i've been doing that with a push-pull converter out of another project, fed over an isolated 12V->12V DCDC brick, which is an extreme overkill, bulky and pricey.I've looked around for pre-made DCDC power modules that can produce -1KV, and while there are some from XP Power and Traco, dear god are they expensive.The question now is - how to make one?It has to be regulated, with low ripple, and i have a strong preference for something that won't require winding inductors/transformers.I'm not sure even what topology to go for, and google was surprisingly unhelpful. There are some variants of a boost converter that can do negative voltages (buck-boost?), and it appears to be possible to attach a voltage multiplier to one.Would that work in practice?Or is there a more straightforward solution?

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:17:16 pm
content: There are plenty of 300V type inverters on ebay. Most are not isolated and neg is referenced to ground. a multiplier could still be used to multiply to neg HV. Look at LCD TV inverter circuits and use the transformer used to supply HV to fluorescent tubes and multiply that.

author: jeroen79
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:17:30 pm
content: Why anegativekilovolt? Negative to what?Voltage is relative.If you have something battery powered then it will be negative or positive depending on what you call zero.If you drop the 'negative' would you then be able to find a suitable design?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:24:00 pm
content: Such high voltages are often produced using isolated topologies (which then may or may not internally connect one of the terminals to the input ground, getting rid of the isolation!), meaning using these topologies it doesn't matter if it's negative or positive, as long as you have a way to choose which end of the transformer you ground.I'd do it with a flyback.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:44:19 pm
content: Is efficiency a big concern? The easiest solution would be to hack a CCFL inverter. If high frequency HV diodes are hard to find in your area, a 240V transformer used backwards in an inverter circuit with a voltage multiplier connected to it can work.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:52:25 pm
content: Flyback is the most reasonable topology, you could get the inductor from am old tv and be close enough but from 12V to 1kV without a transformer or dual inductor with the correct turns ratio isn't easy to get. Wounding your own is probably the best so you can get a reasonable voltage at the output to regulate it later from a fixed 1000V+ or with feedback around your converter.The best option there would depend on-load changes (the consumption is steady or the load changes all the time)-input voltage range (are the 12V fixed or it's a battery that changes by a few volts during it's discharge?)-how precise you need the output to be?-Do you need to be able to change that voltage while working?-How much ripple and noise you can afford to have?All those variables would make to the best choice, as you could use a fixed duty cycle and then use a linear regulator or regulate with the duty cycle as SMPS do, or a combination of both as clean efficent supply do.JS

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:58:47 pm
content: This product may be is what you are looking forhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-6V-12V-1000V-1500V-High-voltage-Power-Boost-Step-up-Module-Generator-Board/172793939362?hash=item283b5245a2%3Ag%3AWcIAAOSwwvZZUGOj&_sacat=0&_nkw=1000V+coverter&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 03:13:31 pm
content: Have a look at this appnote:http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/AN118fb.pdfFlyback converters are not usually recommended for PMTs, a resonant Royer converter is much better and can be easily controlled. PMTs require a low noise and good stability supply, accurately adjustable in a good range (usually 300-1500V).CheersAlex

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 04:15:27 pm
content: If you want to homebrew this, a simple way is to use a Royer converter on a 6V small PCB line transformer (1.5VA, e.g.), then a voltage multiplier to obtain ca. 1.2-1.3kV.An RC ripple filter with 1-2uF caps and 100kOhm resistors should do (takes a while to charge but ripple is very low).Regulation can be done by sampling the output voltage by a resistive divider, then regulating the supply voltage of the Royer converter.There are some CCFL circuits by Jim Williams showing this principle.I tried such a circuit for an isolation tester (1kV, 100uA max) and a Geiger counter tube supply, both worked well.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 04:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: jeroen79 on August 01, 2018, 02:17:30 pmBecause the tube requires electrons to flow from the photocathode towards the anode, which requires it to be at a 1KV below the anode.Sure, i can use a positive 1KV supply, but then i'll either have to have two sets of batteries or power it over an isolated brick, since the tube is connected to the rest of the circuitry (preamp, ADC, etc).Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 01, 2018, 02:44:19 pmNot really care about efficiency, unless it's completely dreadful.I've considered CCFL inverters, but they are unregulated and designed for constant current operation, so i don't see an easy way of making one produce a stable voltage.Quote from: JS on August 01, 2018, 02:52:25 pmWhere can i find examples of a flyback design producing a regulated negative voltage?On the list,-Load is almost perfectly stable per tube, but not between tubes and between days.-Input is a battery, so 11-14V or so.-Very precise. Amplification depends exponentially on the bias voltage, so being a 100V off would make the signal be off by a factor of 10.-No need to change the voltage past the initial setup.-The less the betterQuote from: ebclr on August 01, 2018, 02:58:47 pmIt's unregulated.Quote from: Alex Nikitin on August 01, 2018, 03:13:31 pmSo many convoluted self-wound transformers...I would strongly prefer to avoid this unless there is no other way.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 04:31:17 pm
content: http://www.ceratecinc.com/transformer.php

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 04:32:35 pm
content: Quote from: jeroen79 on August 01, 2018, 02:17:30 pmRelative to the incoming supply ground, obviously

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 04:56:22 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on August 01, 2018, 04:26:54 pmThen 100µA isn't too much for a linear regulator, even regulating 200V, pass transistor must live up to the task but that's not hard to find.The problem you have is the line regulation, as your input changes quite a lot, you could regulate it down, then use a flyback with a fixed duty cycle, use a linear regulator to keep the voltage at the output stable and clean.If you want efficiency you could use some feedback across the switching stage, that makes it deal with the line regulation and get a better high voltage source to start with, then the final linear regulator will take care of the edge, but you might be fine regulating 50V or less at that stage.QuoteYou could use something like this for the topology I described but I don't know how well or close it will remain, 1500V output is a lot and you probably can't adjust it, even if not regulated, or maybe it just gets X times the input, so you adjust the input so the output is 1100V or something and then add the linear regulator after. With this you will avoid having to deal with any transformers, but the one in the module.JS

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 04:58:07 pm
content: Ultravolt makes a perfect product for youModel:1V15-N0.815V input- 1000V output, 0,8mA

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 05:05:50 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on August 01, 2018, 04:26:54 pmAnystandard isolated flyback design. Being isolated, you can freely connect the output+ to your ground reference.Consider outputting, say, 1050-1100V and using a linear regulator to go further. Both for transient response and noise.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 05:09:48 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 01, 2018, 04:58:07 pmAt $270 a pop it's anything but perfect.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 05:20:42 pm
content: A10P-12 from XP Power.https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/1238299/?utm_medium=buyNow&cm_mmc=aff-_-uk-_-findchip-_-1238299&utm_source=supplyFrame

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 05:23:33 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on August 01, 2018, 05:09:48 pmI bought a few used once over the years for 10 to 20 Euro eachIs this for a production run or a one off project

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 05:28:24 pm
content: You can design your own with one of these transformers:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/wurth-electronics-midcom/7508110151/1297-1122-ND/4800054You will need to make your own oscillator driving the secondary side, and on the primary, you will need to double the voltage with 2 diodes and 2 caps. This will get you in the 1kv range. Your method of regulation will need some work. It can be cheap as Zeners shunting the output, or, using a real switchmode controller for the input side.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 06:41:15 pm
content: Bourns make some nice CCFL transformers,http://uk.farnell.com/bourns-jw-miller/pm61300-4-rc/transformer-smd-ccfl-6w-13v-to/dp/1795421Although the Bourns PM61300 is not recommended for new design. You can even get CCFL inverters from Mouser and maybe Digikey. If you add a diode and cap to the output and change the current sense feedback to voltage feedback then job done. Somewhere around here I've got a modified CCFL inverter board that generates +1.2kV for a small CRT.

author: reboots
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 06:59:42 pm
content: Here's a power supply intended to drive a Hamamatsu R1548 photomultiplier tube at +1250V, from a 2011 effort to create a portable nuclear analyzer. If you are familiar with this application, you will understand that it requires very good voltage regulation (and you may recall the significance of the year 2011). The effort never progressed past this point, but the power supply prototype appeared to perform well. Perhaps you can use this circuit topology as the basis for a negative supply.The power supply uses a LT1054 switched capacitor voltage converter to drive a voltage multiplier through an off-the-shelf Eaton/Coiltronics CCFL backlight transformer. The CTX210659-R transformer is sadly obsolete, but its characteristics were not especially exotic. Recovering a signal from the anodes is an exercise for the astute observer, and probably involves a large film cap.All design credit is due to AERCO Electronics. I was responsible for the physical implementation, and can't offer any additional information or application advice. Have fun!

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 07:12:54 pm
content: I haven't used a PMT since '86 when I greatly increased the dynamic range of the tube. I like that upside down approach.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 07:46:21 pm
content: Microchip'sLR8linear regulator can handle an input to output differential of up to 450V. Its usage is similar to a LM317, except at a much lower current and much higher voltage.Design a floating output inverter + voltage multiplier to deliver between about 100V and 300V above the output voltage you want, then regulate it down with the LR8, with a 400V unidirectional TVS diode across it to protect it against overvoltage if the output is ever shorted, (+ reverse voltage during shutdown) and ground the positive output terminal to get a negative output on the other terminal.It will waste a bit of power as the LR8 has a minimum load current of 0.5mA, but assuming you are boosting to 1200V, and size the divider chain to draw 0.5mA, you can keep its dissipation under 3/4W, well within the capabilities of the SOT-89 or D-PAK packages.

author: Mazo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 08:25:29 pm
content: Mains transformer(220-30-40.... whatever volts) to something like 6V.Low voltage windings in parallel driven by class AB amp(don't really see a point in switching design at this power level) high voltage windings in series rectified,filtered and feedback from the output changing the amplitude of the sine applied.(all in all a handful of transistors and op-amps if I am not missing something).Don't forget to calculate the frequency of the sinewave needed to not saturate the cores.Also be careful with the isolation stress as it is over a kV.Probably the hardest part is the voltage(current) control AM sinewave oscillator(attenuator).Look at jfetsOr you can just do all that with a MCU if you don't like the analog way.All numbers cited are just rough mental calculations.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:58:49 am
content: Flyback topology is definitely not suitable for PMT aplication.Use Jim Williams aproach described in AN118:http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/AN118fb.pdfUse Coiltronic/Eaton transformer like CTX21xxx. There are obsolete, but if you want to built one-piece, it is possible to source them.

author: kony
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 11:45:42 am
content: I just happend to have our AAS service manual on table, so here is solution coutesy of Varian, cca 1985.So just cascoded shunt regulator. The HV source does not necessarily have to be auxilitary power transformer winding with a doubler, resonant converter with CCFL transformer is viable as well.

author: Lee Leduc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 11:00:34 pm
content: Lots of circuits on the net. Google "photomultiplier tube power supply circuit" and search images.Here's one that I've used. "An adjustable 0 to 1500V+, regulated, low ripple HV power supplyfor powering PMT's and geiger tubes".It outputs a positive voltage but you may modify the circuit to change the polarity.http://charliethompson.50megs.com/LowRippleHVsupply.htmlTypical CCFL inverter sold by Digikey.https://www.jkllamps.com/pdfs/BXA-24529.pdf

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 07:36:10 pm
content: To answer a comment made earlier, negative voltage for a PMT is quite common. The negative voltage is applied to the cathode, which makes the anode signal output relative to ground.For the power supply yoou will likely need a milliamp or two. There should be a resistor divider for the dynodes. If you make the value too high, then the tube will suffer non-linearity over the signal range. 20K to 1 meg are used, typical is 50K to 100K, which requires 1-2 ma just for the divider string. As for the power supply, a LCD backlight supply (for CCFL) is ideal. Since they are typically AC out, you can rectify to the polarity you want. A simple op-amp circuit and transistor can be used to regulate the output by modulating the DC input to the inverter. I have built several. They are cheap (ebay) and effective.paul

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 12:57:35 pm
content: I have my doubts about HV noise performance of this opensource design, as part of a pulse height analyser project, but posting here since it is quite an interesting application:https://www.theremino.com/en/blog/gamma-spectrometry

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 02:56:31 pm
content: i would use a flyback.....you can actually use the reflected output voltage on the primary to sense when your up to your required voltage.The flyback can be isolated as such.Anyway, just use it the "wrong way round" for a negative output.This flyback way is how they do it for the detonator power supplies.....they use high voltage like you.There are other ways of doing it including combining an smps with a cockcroft walton multiplier......but a straight flyback is good.You can even buy high voltage bobbins so you can get the voltage separation for your primary and secondary

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 02:58:53 pm
content: A voltage multiplier can be attached to the output of a boost, inverting, or flyback converter however it will have much higher noise than a Royer or inverter based design.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 03:04:18 pm
content: True. Flybacks are simpler, but have steep transistions and create a lot of wideband noise.Royers are quieter and can be slew-rate limited to make them even more quiet.And in extreme cases you could use sine-wave inverters.my question:- What is the spec for your PMT tube application ? How much ripple and noise can it tolerate in what frequency ranges ?

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 08:31:52 am
content: I suppose ripple translates as instantaneous PMT gain change, so what percentage pulse height noise is acceptable in the application? Maybe for simple gamma count rate PMT applications higher ripple of flybacks would be tolerable, just set discriminator a bit higher. For spectral applications psu noise would smear the spectrum to some degree (higher FWHM).The Hamamatsu range mostly have ripple specified in the 10 to 100mV range but they don't say much about it's bandwidth.https://www.hamamatsu.com/resources/pdf/etd/High_Voltage_Power_Supply_TACC0005E.pdfOrTec is <15mV 20Hz to 20MHzhttps://www.ortec-online.com/products/electronics/power-supplies-and-nuclear-instrument-module-nim-bins/556-and-556hCAEN NIM PSU modules seem to be 10mV typ. at 3Kv/200uA. Some quote <5mV 100Hz - 100MHz.http://www.caen.it/csite/Function.jsp?parent=21&idfun=15ISEG 10mVhttps://iseg-hv.com/en/products/dc-dcMatsusuda claim <1mV for thishttps://www.matsusada.com/pdf/hpms.pdfhttps://www.matsusada.com/product/psel/hvps2/And a CERN flyback design that claims a 'low' 700mV ripple:https://indico.cern.ch/event/83060/contributions/2101687/attachments/1069924/1525757/Presentation_TWEPP.pdfhttp://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-0221/5/12/C12049/pdfSo, 10mVpp ripple on a 1000v psu, 20Hz-20MHz, seems feasible to aim for, 0.001% reg.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 10:21:47 am
content: Cockroft-Walton design. Doesn't discuss output noise.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 07:19:43 pm
content: Check out figure 17 on page 11 and figure 27 on page 18 ofLinear Technology application note 45. The first shows a flyback converter driving a voltage tripler and the second is the same but with just an inductor in boost configuration and lower output voltage.I think the transformer shown was intended for a Royer CCFL inverter but since you are not running on 1.5 volts, aphotographic flash flyback transformerwould be more suitable and easier to get.For the inductor version, a cascode transistor will need to be added to the common emitter or source switching transistor to handle higher voltages.I would not necessarily use the LT1073 shown.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 05:25:51 am
content: Building a Royer converter to get anywhere up to several kV is very easy, I have done so on numerous occasions. If you want a regulated output you can monitor the output through a voltage divider and use that as feedback to control the input voltage to the converter. At only 0.1mA you might even get away using a linear shunt regulator across the output for regulation.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 08:31:22 pm
content: Does anyone have any hints and tips for measuring millivolt ripple on a 1500VDC psu?How about using a 1uF PP film cap int (HV rated) into a resistor load to ground (with bidirectional zener across it for some scope protection) - measure noise across R.Should get down below 100Hz with that.Or is that a dumb idea?

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 09:07:04 pm
content: ...and a nice answer comes once again from the late great Jim Williams in Linear App Note 118. RIP.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 09:44:55 pm
content: I'm a *tiny* bit dubious of the Jim Williams circuit - if the HT supply you are characterising suffers a flashover, with nothing to limit the transient current out of the coupling cap except its ESR and the cable impedance, the transient current through one of the MUR-110s may be rather higher than you'd like, so that 50R input its direct coupled to had better be fairly robust. Of course, in his day, the testgear he used typically was that robust. Modern low voltage highly integrated gear typically isn't, unless the designer put a *LOT* of effort into input protection.Quote from: voltsandjolts on August 29, 2018, 08:31:22 pmReplace the resistor load with a 2:1 divider, with the clamping at the tap for the scope, compensated for the loading of the scope probe, or maybe with the tap buffered by a video OPAMP driving a 50R cable terminated at the scope and I think you'd be onto something. The top resistor in the divider, with only a few pF of compensation across it limits the max clamping current. Also, there was a topic that got bumped today:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/multimeter-input-protection-what-are-these-bjts-doing/msg719790/#msg719790that's worth a look as the transistor clamping described can have much lower leakage and junction capacitance than a pair of Zeners. Alternative very low capacitance and leakage clamping if the scope input can stand >100V would be a NE-2 neon bulb.Its behaviour could be characterised with a cheap chinese coin cell stack in a plastic pipe*to get a low noise approx 1KV DC bias voltage, and driving the bottom end of that from a signal generator.* A 1KV CR2016 stack is only 334 cells and just over half a meter tall. Split it in two and it can easily be fitted in two 30cm tubes bonded side to side, with a conducting crossbar to link them and retain the cells at one end and two contact springs retained by pins at the other. Insertion is easy if you stack cells 16 at a time and wrap the edges with just under a single turn of 25mm sellotape. then insert them with a slotted plastic plug that can be removed (and replaced again) after complete assembly preventing contact with the conductive crossbar, so you don't have to work live on a 1KV DC source capable of over 200mA short circuit current.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 09:55:15 pm
content: Hi,I think the comment about the maximum flashover current is valid. The pulse could fry your protection diodes (35A max.) and the next thing to suffer then is your scope input.What I would do is a 50Ohm series resistor (HV type) at the input, a neon bulb or spark arrester to ground,another series 50Ohm resistor (normal one is OK) and the antiparallel diodes to ground afterwards.That should limit the voltage to a 50Ohm scope to something survivable.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 04:45:23 am
content: I think you are underestimating how tough a silicon diode is. If you do manage to destroy the junction short of disintegration, it turns into a short fulfilling it protection function anyway. The 35 amp maximum specification of the MUR-110 is for a half cycle of 60 Hz and reflects the maximum rise in junction temperature.If you are still worried, then the same protection circuit can be used with a 1 megohm input but 50 ohm input instruments have lower noise.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 06:58:22 am
content: ... I might be pessemistic, but the 35A for the diodes are the only pulse power spec that is available in the datasheet. I used this scheme once (with different diodes and a larger cap to get a lower frequency limit) and they did not survive (fortunately the failed short so the scope was undamaged).If the diodes would fail open and you fail to take notice of this, your next dead thing is your scope.I dont know what exactly killed them, it could also be that due to a very high dV/dt the conducting area was just a small portion of the die, making this one punch thru.

author: vindoline
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2018, 12:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on August 01, 2018, 01:10:56 pmI've had exactly this problem. By far the simplest and cheapest option is to use a CCFL inverter intended for automotive headlamp use. On eBay search for "angel eyes inverter." They go for about $5 each. Use a simple LM317 circuit to provide a variable input from 0-12v and add a voltage double/rectifier on the output. This works great for PMT supplies.User G8RPI over at the gamma spectroscopy forums (https://groups.io/g/GammaSpectroscopy) has a great article on exactly how to do this. Posted with his permission.