Nissan LEAF as Home Energy Storage - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 09:13:42 am
content: So you'll soon be able to use your LEAF as home battery storage, that's pretty cool.But this article says it could cost $10,000 for the widgethttps://thedriven.io/2020/07/09/nissan-leaf-owners-should-be-able-to-use-their-cars-to-power-their-homes-later-this-year/

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 09:52:21 am
content: No, it's not cool. Dedicated home batteries use a different chemistry and promise 5000+ cycles. Did some back of the envelope some time ago, works out to about 0.1$/kWh charged/discharged.Car batteries, with 1000+ cycles work out to, what, 0.35$/kWh charge/discharged? Thanks, but no thanks.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 12:05:24 pm
content: We recently had a five day power outage here. I used a hybrid car as an emergency generator, with an inverter on the 12V circuit. Not much power - about 1kW - but enough to keep the fridge running and a couple of lamps.The hybrid car just sits there, cycling on and off, topping up its high voltage battery which then feeds the whole show. Not as efficient as a separate generator... but the overall cost is low, no storage needed for a generator that would only get used once every few years!So back on topic: An electric car that was able to act as a back-up for the entire house.... is actually not a bad idea at all!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 12:23:08 pm
content: Instead of this gimmick they should rather add battery thermal management system so their batteries do not degrade at extraordinary rate. They are disgrace of electric car industry.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 12:29:22 pm
content: BTW why someone would pay $10k for this is beyond me. For this money you can buy Tesla Powerwall with installation included.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2020, 02:01:06 pm
content: https://wallbox.com/en_uk/quasar-dc-charger"Charge and discharge your EV usingadvanced facial recognitionandgesture control."Sounds like feature creep has led to the $10k price tag.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 07:49:16 am
content: Some more news related to this project for anyone wanting to take a deeper look.https://arena.gov.au/projects/realising-electric-vehicle-to-grid-services/https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-08/act-hooks-electric-vehicles-up-to-power-grid-in-research-trial/12436224https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/new-lab-to-help-drive-australias-low-carbon-energy-futureI'd agree with the sentiments the price for the hardware is a bit premium compared to what a well cost optimised solution could be even with "early adopter premium". I did some investigations on cost effectiveness of vehicle to grid (V2G) vs dedicated battery systems.A 9.8kWh residential energy storage system (ESS) from LG chem is rated for a24.3 MWhlifetime throughput down to 60% rated capacity degradation (https://solarjuice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/lg-chem-lv-resu-limited-warranty.pdf) with a retail cost of AU$7,862.80 (https://www.ecoelectric.com.au/shop/lg-resu-10-lv-battery-system.html.html). So thats0.326 AU$/kWhthen you need to add a seperate inverter-charger which would serve the same function at the $10k wall wart vehicle to grid (V2G) interface.As an additional datapoint for residential ESS, Tesla Powerwall 2 is warrantied for37 MWhdown to 70% rated capacity degradation (https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/Powerwall_2_AC_Warranty_AUS-NZ_1-0.pdf) at a retail cost of AU$10,000 (https://www.ecoelectric.com.au/shop/tesla-powerwall-tesla-14kwh-battery.htmlhttps://www.tesla.com/en_AU/powerwall). So thats0.270 AU$/kWhand you've got extra capacity at the end of warranty compared to the LG Chem and the inverter-charger is built-in too.Now for EVs the standard warranties appear to be about 160,000 km = 100,000 miles (https://www.caradvice.com.au/859099/electric-car-battery-warranty/) finding how much energy throughput that relates to though is a bit more challenging.Nissan leafs are warrantied to have after 100,000 miles no less than "9 bars out of 12" (https://www.nissan.com.au/owners/warranty/new-vehicle-warranty-terms.htmlhttps://owners.nissanusa.com/content/techpub/ManualsAndGuides/LEAF/2018/2018-LEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf) and confusingly the first bar segment is 15% but the remaining are 7.5% (https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/26/2018-nissan-leaf-60000-mile-update/) so down to 60% capacity. EPA rating for the 2018 leaf (https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=42085&flag=1) shows 187.709 miles for 44.8318 kWh of charge input (probably some onboard converter loss in there) so4.19 miles/kWhthen that gives warrantied throughput of23.9 MWhor only532 cycles?! Looks like using your car for ESS is probably not too great in terms of warrantied life. However, I've seen anecdotal evidence the actual lifetime in general is better than warranty at 92.5% capacity for 40,000 miles (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/06/40000-miles-with-the-2018-nissan-leaf/) then 86.8% after 60 000 miles so on track to a bit under 80% by 100 000 miles.The Australian 2019 leaf (2018 leaf everywhere else) is about AU$50,000 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/nissan/leaf/2019) then add on the AU$10,000 wall wart so assuming you used the warrantied throughput purely for V2G that'd be2.51 AU$/kWh(2.09 without wall wart).Now obviously you're paying for more than just the batteries when you buy a car. It took some digging to find but the cost of a replacement battery for a Leaf is apparently at least is JPY 820 000 aprox. AU$10,700 for a 40kWh battery (https://global.nissannews.com/ja-JP/releases/180326-04-j?source=nng&lang=ja-JP) and only available in Japan at that cost apparently so that's actually 0.867 AU$/kWh or if we dont include the expensive V2G grid tie (which you could assume as a non recurring cost?) thats0.448 AU$/kWhnot too bad. Mind you, you costs are a bit worse using this guy's quoted cost (https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=6077) AU$ 10,000 for replacing a 24 kWh battery in a first gen leaf (which were notoriously bad btw,https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109640_lessons-learned-from-early-electric-car-2011-nissan-leaf-at-90000-miles) and you might end up getting stiffed by dealerships like this guy (https://autoexpert.com.au/videoblog/astonishing-30k-nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-bill) with a $33,000 bill for what seems to be the same replacement as the bloke on the AEVA forum... Might be worth looking more into these wildly varying replacement costs.If the cost of the vehicle to grid interface gets brought down to a more reasonable ~$2.5k like other existing inverter-chargers (https://www.outbackmarine.com.au/multiplus-48-5000-70-100-inverter-charger-victron) and you assume the EV batteries get degraded maybe half as much as they would driving (i.e. halve the lifetime energy throughput cost) then you could,maybejustify the lifetime costs with respect to a typical ESS system and have the benefit of not needing to spend extra capital to buy a separate 40kWh battery system.Again, I'd expect degradation to not be as bad as calculated here particularly considering ESS use where the load characteristics will be much gentler than driving (500 cycles seems low for any cell put under typical ESS use). That being said, the warranty is the warranty and EV manufactures don't seem to have warranties covering V2G use yet so I'm just playing with numbers here.In the end, I think in terms of straight cost effectiveness its not possible to beat the cost optimisation of a system designed specifically for ESS and at $10k you can literally just buy a Tesla Powerwall but it could maybe work and make sense in the future even with lifetime cost considerations?Disclaimer: I'm involved in work on EVs and ESS related systems but not any V2G products... as of writing this.Edit: To compare the loading of ESS vs driving. The Tesla powerwall is 5kW continous, 7kW peak and the wallbox Quasar is spec'd at 7.4kW. That's a0.185 Cload at max with a 40kWh battery. The Leaf's power train is rated at 110kW=2.75 Cwith 40kWh battery and obviously you're not going to be flooring it continuously but burst loads an order of magnitude larger.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 09:17:29 am
content: The evidence so far from Leaf batteries is they have extreme calendar degradation but generally cycle life isn't a serious factor. So it is actually in your interest to get as many cycles out of it as possible.I don't know what chemistry Nissan are using, but it is genuinely crap, and it hasn't got any better. Other manufacturers have at least twice the battery lifespan of Nissan, and Tesla makes 500k miles / 4 years to 92% capacity still remaining. It doesn't make sense.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 10:06:50 am
content: Costly now, but in the future i hope it will be more accessible, that's a good start ...

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 10:50:34 am
content: Quote from: 47blueskull on August 27, 2020, 09:49:10 amThere's also this minor fact that the chemistry is different.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 01:33:27 pm
content: Hard for any EV to beat an ICE for longevity. E.g. I have an old 1990 Mazda MX5 that looks and runs beautifully, delivering hundreds of smiles per gallon!It would probably have been much more expensive to keep an EV alive for this long.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 01:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: sandalcandal on August 27, 2020, 07:49:16 amA Tesla powerwall in Australia is $10k + $1700 "supporting hardware" + installation according to the Tesla AU pricing page.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 02:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: sandalcandal on August 27, 2020, 07:49:16 amI think so too.And it also provides greater flexibility. i.e. not having to plug in at home every day if you have charging capability elsewhere like at work.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 02:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2020, 01:58:14 pmYeah I kinda ignored that cost. I think the supporting hardware is distribution box components and anti-islanding which you need for any ESS/generation systemhttps://www.tesla.com/en_au/support/energy/powerwall/learn/system-design

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 12:56:09 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 27, 2020, 01:33:27 pmI doubt any modern ICE with its high compression ratios, turbo, and complex exhaust systems, will survive as long as that Mazda.There's something to be said for a simple naturally aspirated engine.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 01:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 27, 2020, 01:33:27 pmDon't think I agree. Swap the batt pack and move on. Electric motors should have any ICE beat for longevity...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 01:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on August 28, 2020, 01:00:44 pm30 years... 200K miles... how many battery packs are we talking about?And don't forget: an ICE performs at 100% as long as there is any fuel at all in the tank!Doesn't mean I don't like EVs, I do, but let's not ignore that they have some downsides too.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 01:41:43 pm
content: Pretty much any EV should be able to hit 200k miles on its first battery..

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 01:47:38 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on August 28, 2020, 01:41:43 pmThe hard part for the EV is the 30 years at full performance...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 06:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 28, 2020, 01:37:40 pmI'm not sure about the 100% bit. ICEs loose a significant proportion of their output power over their life due to engine wear, loss of compression etc. I remember quite a few episodes of the BBC 'Top Gear' program where, in their challenges, the presenters have proudly put their second-hand performance car acquisitions on a dynamometer, only to find that they have a fraction of their original output power. I doubt they drinklessfuel.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 11:38:28 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 28, 2020, 06:14:56 pmModern ICEs only go bad only if not maintained (primarily, watch those oil changes!) or if they are abused/driven hard (e.g. performance cars!) or if they have truly stratospheric mileages on them, or if you are simply unlucky and something breaks prematurely due to a flaw in materials/workmanship. Consider also that as carbon deposits build up in an ICE, compression actually goes UP over time! - this can become a real problem and cause knocking/pinking.In the case of my particular MX-5, it appears to have been adult driven and its little 1.6 engine still easily beats its specification 0-60 time and does not burn any oil. In other words, it hasn't lost performance noticeably. I will check the compression one of the days, but modern engines are so good that I don't even think I can find my compression gauge without digging deep in the garage!We do have several other older ICE cars in the family, and they all run like Swiss watches. One is a hybrid Ford with >220K miles, it still beats its EPA mileage rating and gets the same mileage as new; the story is the same: no noticeable loss of performance. However; unlike the MX-5, the Ford will eventually need a new hybrid battery... at which point it will probably be scrapped due to it being uneconomic to do so. It isn't going to make it to 30 years old, unlike the Mazda.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 11:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 28, 2020, 11:38:28 pmModern ICE is when tiny 3 cylinder engine is stressed so hard to salvage the last bit of power that it often dies at 100k km (60k miles). It's a bit different in US since they do like big cars with big engines and care comparably little about fuel efficiency.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 08:43:23 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 28, 2020, 01:37:40 pmPlenty of EVs perform at 100% with a discharged battery too.I mean my PHEV on pure electric gives full performance (100 hp) when the battery indicator reaches 0 miles.In most cases the EVs that do have a 'turtle mode' only do so for two reasons: one, to make discharging the battery to zero safer (you don't want to cut power under full acceleration, could be quite dangerous) and two to extend the range (and make drivers be more economical) for the last few miles.It would be sort of like an ICE car limiting the car to 2000 rpm as the fuel tank ran dry. Most don't do that.Early Model S had no power limit and would discharge well past 0 miles with full power available.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 04:26:49 pm
content: Nobody is disagreeing that an EV battery is unlikely to last 30 years?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 04:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 28, 2020, 11:49:41 pmEven worse, when they use a tiny 4 cylinder with a turbo to pretend it is a bigger engine. That works well... for a while!The MX5 is a very light car, so even its 1.6 liter 4 banger is not stressed at all - for sure one of the reasons it still runs great.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 04:32:30 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 29, 2020, 04:28:23 pmWho said those 3 cylinder engines don't have turbo.https://www.topspeed.com/cars/these-are-the-most-powerful-three-cylinder-engines-in-new-cars-ar183861.htmlAnd then something like this happens, I wonder whyhttps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-45628325

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 04:56:38 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 29, 2020, 04:26:49 pmMost cars don't last 30 years, your MX-5 is not a representative sample.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 06:01:22 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 29, 2020, 04:56:38 pmIf you take care of your car properly, it can last forever pretty much - that's surely the most environmentally friendly thing you can do?Tesla warranties their long range batteries for 8 years, or 120,000 miles, at 70% of original charge.If I kept an EV for 30 years... and replaced the battery every 10 years, for example... sounds like at least two battery packs would have been needed in that time.A Tesla battery pack costs $6500, from a quick Google.Long term EV ownership sounds expensive, with the current state of the art.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 06:44:27 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 29, 2020, 06:01:22 pmThat's not reality, however. The average is half that, at best. In some areas, a lot less because of rapid corrosion (coastal, cold climates). Keeping a car alive for decades and never replacing it also costs you all the improvements made in the last 30 years, unless you plan to retrofit better airbags, seatbelts, ABS systems, insulation, climate control, navigation, reversing camera, folding mirrors, parking sensors, side proximity sensors..How many miles has your unicorn done a year, anyway? I'm guessing not nearly the average, always in the best weather, hasn't seen coastal conditions let alone salted roads..

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 08:53:39 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 29, 2020, 06:44:27 pmI haven't owned this mx-5 its entire life. I bought it used for $4,500 about 19 years ago. It now has 190K miles on it. Looks beautiful, gets lots of compliments from people wherever I take it. I live in a coastal region and salt/rust is an issue - have to wash the undercarriage of any vehicle regularly during salting season....I agree that keeping a car alive for 30 years is more of a hobby than average usage pattern, but that isn't really the point I was trying to make. The point is that the performance of the 30 year old ICE car is pretty much the same as when it was new, because there isn't the same calendar decay that you get with a battery.If you like, we can discuss more normal ownership patterns. The average age of a car in the USA is around 12 years. I don't know what the standard deviation is... but it seems reasonable to say that there are quite a few cars that make it close to 20 years, judging by what I see in daily traffic.So, it seems reasonable that a lot of EVs will require at least one battery pack, and possibly two, within that kind of time frame. If that is not a realistic estimate, I'd be interested to know the reasons.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2020, 02:17:54 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 29, 2020, 06:01:22 pmThat's assuming the person wants to or can keep using the same car for 30 years.Needs and circumstances change.e.g. when we had kids we sold the old RAV4 and get a bigger and safer car. Would that car have still been working now a decade later (probably 20 years old now)? Yep, no doubt, but that's beside the point.Move houses or jobs and your new car doesn't fit or is not suited to your daily needs any more? Gotta sell it and move on.Hardly anyone keeps the same car for 30 years for these reasons alone.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2020, 03:06:58 pm
content: There aren't that many EVs out there with that kind of age ... so we don't have much data. Certainly none with Li-Ion. You might find a very old EV1 that's 25 years old with a Ni-MH pack but those are mostly in museums.A large battery like a Tesla Model S, with say 70kWh rated capacity (220 miles range), and min. 2500 cycles, should be able to drive for over 550,000 miles to 70% capacity.Few cars go that far before something else major goes wrong or substantial overhaul is required. If we assume 15k miles/year, that's 36 years of use. Does that meet your standard? When is the battery 'failed'? I could still go quite far on 70% capacity but sure, it isn't quite as good as a new vehicle.The best example of longevity is probably the Prius. Older vehicles used Ni-MH and newer vehicles use Li-Ion, again not much data from the latter, but there are Priuses driving around with their original Ni-MH battery pack with over a quarter million miles. And that pack is cycled probably hundreds of times every day, and has large discharge and charge currents (~2kWh nom. capacity, 30kW peak charge/discharge for the original Prius.) This battery is just air cooled. It is true that the packs are known to fail eventually, but generally it is a single cell that goes bad and rebuilding the pack is quite easy, many companies offer it for under $500. But there are also many examples of this vehicle still using their factory pack, drive motors, etc. with only basic preventative maintenance being performed.There is also evidence that there are EVs that won't last long due to defects in their battery chemistry. Nissan Leaf for instance has a clearly defective chemistry which barely gives the vehicle a 10 year lifespan, even worse in hot climates but temperate climates like the UK still present challenges. But Nissan products in general are crap, I would never buy a Nissan vehicle.And you say the ICE doesn't degrade as it gets older? No, I disagree. Certainly with newer vehicles at least. Engine seals wear, oil burn increases, cylinder bores wear, valves, springs and bearings all also wear. Eventually, the compression of the engine will progressively reduce. This reduces the power output, and decreases the fuel economy. You need to rebore and rebuild the engine eventually, which is usually uneconomical. Older vehicles are generally less likely to require this because they were built with fewer demands on the engine and used thick, well lubricating oils that perform well at low temperatures but increase engine load and decrease economy.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2020, 03:17:10 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 29, 2020, 04:56:38 pmLocation also plays a huge role.Here in the US salt belt vehicles driven through the winter begin to rust through after only 5 years. My 1999 Chevy truck had rust holes I could put my fist through by 2005, vehicle had less than 60k miles.Newer vehicles might be slightly better, but not by much.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2020, 03:28:18 pm
content: hmm. Guys, please stay on topic, or open another topic.

author: Phoenix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2020, 11:49:01 pm
content: It's a shame this thread has a negative tone, rather than appreciating where this technology current is and the potential that it has. Yes the Wallbox Quasar has some gimmicky features, but you have to stand out somehow. And yes V2H might not be the killer application for the it - but probably the easiest to explain in a mainstream article.The concept of V2H and V2G is very in its infancy right now and companies are looking at what the technology can offer. The biggest driver for CHAdeMO bidirectional (i.e. Nissan Leaf) was the Japanese earthquakes/tsunamis that knock out a power grid for weeks and damage other infrastructure like roads. They imagined that a fleet of nimble service vehicles carrying personnel could also bring portable high capacity power supplies. This now exists thanks to bidirectional EV chargers.Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2020, 09:13:42 amI wouldn't get too hung up on the marked price; there is nothing hardware-wise inherently expensive/novel in a product like this and the price will drop when there is some competition in the market (think solar inverter price). As far as Wallbox is concerned, at the moment whatever they manufacture they will sell (or have already sold). They are being used extensively in trials in Europe.As for battery discharge and lifetime reduction using this, it's probably not as bad as everyone thinks on first impression - there are many ways a product like this could operate. For example the ANU trials mentioned in that article are participating in the FCAS market. While not as potentially lucrative as the spot price market it will only discharge the battery when a grid event requires it, but still get paid whenever it's available (i.e. plugged in) to perform the service.If you're trying to imitate the behaviour of a Powerwall you might use up a bit more of your battery. But the EV battery has 4x or more capacity than the powerwall and you're really only discharging/charging the top 15-20% of the battery which isn't as bad as full discharge/charge on cell cycles.If you want to have house backup during a blackout - this would be an infrequent event that you might be willing to use a little more of your car battery and still probably not notice any degradation in lifetime. To do this you still need the added expense of the islanding device though - just like a Powerwall.Fleet owners could make use of their banks of cars that sit in their parking lot all day. They may have less concerns about battery degradation (only keep the cars a few years, and/or only use top fraction of capacity).Quote from: blueskull on August 27, 2020, 09:49:10 amI'm only aware of a couple auto makers who are trailing the BiDi OBC concept, not yet publicly available; perhaps in China it's more available? There is also a large requirements gap between that idea (I like the name vehicle-to-picnic for it) and V2G/V2H with grid interaction.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2020, 03:22:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2020, 02:17:54 amAgree, but a little 2 seater sports car that doesn't cost much to run is a good second (or third!) car whatever stage of life you are at. The little Mazda MX-5s are very reliable and a hoot to drive. A neighbour down the road has an early 2000's Porsche for the same reason. Still further up the road, a guy has an old Mustang. - It is not uncommon for guys to have a "hobby car".To remain on topic: one of Tesla's first models was an electric version of a Lotus sports car. In future, as all cars become EVs, all sports cars will be electric too... Which means, there will be people who keep them alive for a long time, and will have to deal with replacing batteries.Maybe an aftermarket battery industry will evolve. I can't imagine batteries remaining "stupid expensive" in a future where hundreds of millions of EVs are manufactured annually...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2020, 03:34:55 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 30, 2020, 03:06:58 pmI actually do own a hybrid car as well (I have too many cars...) - it is a 15 year old Ford hybrid, with 220,000 miles on it. It still gets as good mileage as new (and beats its EPA rating without too much trouble). Both the ICE and the NiMH battery/electric systems have been paragons of reliability (fx: knocks on wood to avoid jinxing it!).Modern engines are much, much better than old ones. In the 60's, it was normal to have to rebuild an engine well before 100K miles. Nowadays, most cars will approach 200K and - if the oil is changed regularly - they will sail past 200K with no problems, like my old Ford.I don't doubt that one day, EVs will achieve similar results. I'm not sure we are there yet, though.Adding the workload of running the house from the EV's battery can only shorten its life further, it seems to me.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2020, 03:46:53 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 31, 2020, 03:22:38 amInteresting you say that. While I was looking for some official pricing on Leaf replacement batteries I came across people that are already doing 3rd party battery replacements for Leafs.https://insideevs.com/news/428315/ev-rides-nissan-leaf-new-battery/

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2020, 04:06:10 pm
content: Here are a couple of interesting videos on the balance between EV and ICE:

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2020, 04:33:11 pm
content: Fun fact: Toyota tested their NiMh Prius battery with 100.000 Charge/Discharge cycle, no degradation. That is 200.000 Pure electric km, they claim it is typically using 30% of the time electric drive, so 500-600.000KM should be possible.The bidirectional charger makes sense. I've seen a projection, that this should be standard feature ASAP on chargers, but not to power your house when you want it.The reason is to solve electric grid infrastructure problems. Integrating renewable energy into the grid is not an easy task. Storage is a problem, and variable input is a problem. From 2030, petrol and diesel car sales are banned here. They sell about 500K cars per year here, so by 2030, there could be maybe 2 million EVs here. They should be plugged into the network as much as possible. At any time half of them is plugged in, we are talking about 100 GWh of storage. That is 4 days worth of storage of the total electricity usage of the country.What will probably happen, is that you get an incentive to plug the car in. Maybe cheaper electicity, or tax or something like that. You sacrifice 10-20km of range, that could be there, fully charged, but maybe not. Doesnt really matter, it is monday, you are not going to drive 700km. But in the meantime they can store the solar and wind energy, and use it during the night or if the wind calms down. Microcycling doesnt degrade batteries as much as full cycles.And really, who cares about the pricing of the charger. They make 51 of them, it is a research project. When it becomes widely available, they solve the pricing. Most of the electronics is there already anyway, maybe you need a couple of extra FETs.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2020, 07:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 31, 2020, 01:05:38 amNot the ones I was in.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2020, 11:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 31, 2020, 04:33:11 pmOn my hybrid car, the battery management system keeps the charge in a strict range between 40% and 55%... it never makes excursions outside this range (except when rebalancing the cells, which happens every few thousand miles). This is why the batteries last so long...So, you cannot compare a hybrid system to a "pure" EV, the latter will almost certainly not be able to make its batteries last anywhere near as long as a hybrid. And that's before we start talking about bidirectional chargers.I think the bidirectional charger has merit for power outages and other emergency use, but for daily use? Not so much, unless you enjoy replacing expensive batteries regularly...

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 12:25:37 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 31, 2020, 04:33:11 pmAlready done in some places with the Ohmconnect service. They don't care how you reduce your peak usage, just by how much you manage to. I personally would go with scheduling loads and using thermal storage as those are a lot cheaper than batteries.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 07:50:42 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 31, 2020, 11:00:45 pmMost Tesla drivers seem to drive between about 80% and 20%. The vehicle has enough range that for day to day use (commuting, city drives, shopping etc) that the car can be viably used in this reduced range, which surely increases the lifespan of the pack considerably. Tesla themselves recommend only using 100% for long trips. It is known to increase cell pressure and encourage cracking.My PHEV explicitly locks out the upper 6% of the pack and lower 22%. It's interesting they are more concerned about the lower part of the pack.I think there's good evidence to show who have done well with batteries: Tesla.And who hasn't: Nissan, Renault (using same batteries).The others, there is too little data, but early results from VW e-Golf are good. It uses Panasonic cells. Like Tesla, although they are in pouch form.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 02:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 01, 2020, 07:50:42 amInteresting. There might be lessons in there for designing smaller products that use Lithium Ion batteries... i.e. stay in the range 22% - 80% of charge, perhaps use a slightly larger cell to make up for that, and your device would have a longer service life? (than using 0% - 100%)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 03:43:46 pm
content: Yes. Lenovo has software on their laptops that can limit high charging level to 70/80/90% for customers that keep their laptops plugged in all the time. Significantly improves battery life.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 06:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 01, 2020, 03:43:46 pmIt would be a very good feature if it wasn't a goddamn Lenovo vantage which requires an online sign in, otherwise it will be pestering you with notifications to no end. Not that it will completely stop pestering you even with it.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 08:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 01, 2020, 03:43:46 pmIt is called calendar ageing. Some studies show, that keeping it at 70% charged reduces calendar ageing by a factor of 3, compared to 100%. The other big factor is temperature.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 09:03:57 pm
content: Yes - and that might be a factor behind why Leaf batteries age so much quicker than other batteries. Because the vehicles have such a short range, it is necessary to keep them at a high SoC for daily use. Whereas a Tesla can happily sit at 70% SoC for 'daily use' (commuting etc), with 100% reserved for road trips only.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 09:16:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 30, 2020, 03:06:58 pmhttps://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-nissan-leaf-firmware-update-to-correct-capacity-reporting/Leaf will hit about ~60% after 10 years of normal use, which is ok considering the low cost of the vehicle. If you want a pack that lasts a long time then you pay extra for the Tesla, or others with active temperature monitoring. Buying one new of course is a huge waste of money, used (off lease) market is where the value is.Average ownership about 4 years, with cars on the road being ~8 years, and destroyed at 16 years in the UK. An old 60% capacity leaf gives you ~80km range which is still usable for a lot of people (easily covers daily commute in UK).Reliability is fine as well.Quotehttps://www.whatcar.com/nissan/leaf/hatchback/used-review/n823/adviceBut yeah, using as a power bank only really makes sense for emergencies imo. vs tesla with the greater capacity.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 08:18:56 pm
content: 5% degradation after 7 years under low mileage usage. Tesla are doing something right, even if they are having issues with lifespan under heavy supercharging use on older cars.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 04:07:11 am
content: Lithium battery life looks like it probably comes down to the choice of chemistry used in the cells that are selected for the battery and the careful charge regime.If you watch this video:referred to in this threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lithium-ion-battery-degeneration/So, you may ultimately get what you pay for.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 09:03:13 am
content: A friend of mine has a Model S 100D and he reports that Tesla has progressively reduced cold temperature regen. He used to get full 60kW regen down to about 5C, now it has to be above 15C, until the pack is below about 50% SoC.Whereas my PHEV gives me 45kW regen at -5C and at +30C, but limits the *discharge* power at low temperatures (and below -10C, enforces 'hybrid only' operation, with no pure electric mode available.) So presumably the chemistry of these packs differ quite considerably.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 11:39:11 am
content: It’s been reported Nissan Leaf’s have the worst batteries. While this “sounds” good, in theory, one would be a fool to do this with a Leaf. Tesla yes, but a Leaf, no way.https://youtu.be/jUINNMHZxXchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WigjD2CZAJE&feature=youtu.be

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 12:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on September 04, 2020, 04:07:11 amThis is an excellent video, thanks for posting.Interesting that the coulombic efficiency reveals all...

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 05:39:43 pm
content: Have you seen the video about Tesla's batteries? They are getting close to a million miles. (Or double or triple the life of the car.)Wonderful explanation of what Tesla is doing right, and why the other car companies are 10 years behind if not more. I'm not a fan of Elon or Tesla. But after watching these videos you have to give credit Elon and Tesla credit for what they have done. The guys in the video also talk about how the other non-American car companies are learning from Tesla. And how the American car companies are failing. No wonder the new Ford President is ending manufacturing of all passenger car except Mustang.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 05:49:38 pm
content: Why double post?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/why-tesla-batteries-are-better-than-everyone-elses/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/why-tesla-cars-are-the-best-evs-and-tesla-is-the-best-car-company/You seem to be a serial pointless YouTube thread linker!

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 05:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 04, 2020, 05:49:38 pmJust like with Dave's videos there are others that are very good and most credible. I post so others can learn from them just as I have. You don't have to watch them, but then why are you in this forum if you don't want to learn something?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 05:56:25 pm
content: If people want to watch videos about Tesla on YouTube, they just need to type it in - there's no need to start a new thread linking each one, let alone posting duplicates.Edit: the thread title is "Nissan LEAF as Home Energy Storage" not, 'How great are Teslas!'

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 05:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 04, 2020, 05:56:25 pmWhat's in the videos are relevant and pertinent to the topic being discussed.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 06:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 04, 2020, 05:56:25 pm

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 06:30:14 pm
content: Did I not post the Leaf battery links? And it turns out he address questions saying he was wrong. - Good stuff.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 09:23:56 pm
content: And this appears to be the issue that's arising with EV batteries.Pick the right (not necessarily the cheapest) cell construction and properly manage the charge control seems to be the way to longevity.As with most products, the drive to save cents here and there can often have a hugely detrimental effect on the life and reputation and mostly these cost 'savings' are driven by uninformed or uneducated financial controllers who are prepared to ignore souund engineering advice or fail to get such advice.This is fine to get your stuff into the market but these shortcuts or design implications should make part of the information for marketing.Yes, sure, maybe I am prepared to live with an un-backed five year battery life in a cheap(er) EV but that should be my informed decision.Personally, I think EVs are heading in the right direction and we will be seeing more and more of the transport market (bikes through to trucks) opening up to EV power plants and mostly it is thanks to the early adopters and almost the social as well as engineering experiments manfacturers are doing - just like any new complex devices that his the market over time.The results of what we are seeing today will most likely set the playing field of expectations tomorrow.But referring to the OT, ultimately I think if you have dreams of using your EV as part of your home energy infrastructure, you may need to consider what the EV is there for primarily, fine if it's a second car and you're happy to have it drop to 25% (say) and won't need to jump into it in a hurry expecting it to have a full charge.I imagine that the future of this sort of integration would be supplemental to an already installed battery system. The capacity of the home batteries is sufficient to run a normal household load and the EV would dip in at peak times as needed, so the load on the EV would be similar to dynamic loads of driving and hence the energy profile of the EV.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 01:36:17 am
content: @aargee I was in agreement with you on battery technology until I watched the tear-down of Tesla batteries. And comparison of Tesla batteries with the other manufactures. Tesla batteries are lasting for 1 million miles which is probably two to three times the life of the car.I think thought this video was very informative on automotive batteries.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WigjD2CZAJE&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=EforElectric

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 03:31:37 pm
content: Given that we have learned that calendar time is the main determinant of battery decay, more so than the count of charge/discharge cycles (which is perhaps more of a problem with lead/acid or other older technologies?), perhaps it isn't completely crazy to use the EV as a home top-up battery. You could even argue you get better use out of the battery in the calendar time that you have with it?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 03:32:12 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 01, 2020, 09:16:24 pmLow cost? The entry level UK model is a few quid shy of £27,000, its dinosaur-squeezings cousin the Micra (with an almost identical body plan) starts at £14,500. You clearly have a very different perception of "low cost" than I do.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 10:28:40 pm
content: The Leaf is 4.5m x 1.8m x 1.5m; the Micra is 3.99m x 1.75m x 1.45m.The Golf mk7 is 4.25m x 1.8m x 1.45m. Golfs start from about £23,000, and an equivalent trim to the Leaf with a 140 hp motor and cruise control would be around £27,000. It's in a similar segment, so that's probably why it costs...about the same. Hmm.How can you call it a Micra? I don't like the Leaf, but it's clearly in the mid-size family hatchback range, not city-car Micra which is a whole half-metre shorter on length and 5cm shorter on height.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 10:33:00 pm
content: Talking about using Nissan Leaf batteries for home storage, try not to wince when you see this catastrophically failed Leaf battery pack:https://twitter.com/muxsan_ev/status/1290250657207730176from a Leaf taxi with 200,000km, frequently quick charged. Somehow, pack reports 85% SoH, but presumably catastrophic failure (possibly involving fire or just complete failure) is not too far away. Remarkable that it can still drive. But this shows the terrible design of Nissan's battery pack. A combination of lack of any cooling method, plus poor battery chemistry and limited temperature sensing, means the packs don't survive that long in the real world.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 10:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 05, 2020, 10:33:00 pmYou are making a generalization based on 1 data point. Take a look at the Tesla design they are hitting 1 million miles for life expediency or double or triple the life of the car. There are three different battery designs. Do you know which on the Leaf is using?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 12:02:40 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 05, 2020, 10:28:40 pmThe precise size of the car is not the point, neither is an exact comparison with a somehow 'identical' petrol car - the point is someone calling £27,000 "low cost" (close to the UK median gross wage before taxation etc).

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 12:04:10 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 05, 2020, 10:45:16 pmFreudian slip?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 06:19:29 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 06, 2020, 12:04:10 amIf only it was. That auto-fill is such a comedian.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 07:44:35 am
content: Doug, I have nothing but disdain for the Leaf, at least the older 24 and 30kWh and some 40kWh packs. Barely any of them will last 8 years to 70% SoH. The lack of active liquid cooling, combined with poor cell chemistry and pouch format, leaves the cells under great stress.Whereas, I think it's rather likely we'll see 20 year old Model S's on the road with ~90% SoH and still drivable with basic preventative maintenance. Clearly Tesla have done their homework. Nissan have not. I would not buy a Leaf, new or used, excepting the latter case when it was very cheap and I could accept the limited range or replace the battery pack for little. Right now there is a reason a 6 year old Leaf can be picked up for 1/6th its original price.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 07:48:02 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 06, 2020, 12:02:40 amBut new cars aren't cheap. I don't know what your point is. Most new cars in the UK (>50%) are leased because purchasing is expensive. You can lease an EV for about £200 per month. If you aren't putting £150 per month of petrol in it, and instead £25 per month of off-peak electricity, then that's a pretty good deal for someone who just wants to drive a new car around. I considered it for a while before I decided to buy my GTE used instead.A car like the Micra is the epitome of basic. 5 speed manual, cable operated handbrake, manual HVAC controls, tiny engine, drum brakes on the rear, simple suspension, small steel wheels with eco-tyres, small load space etc. And that's fine for someone who wants that. There are plenty of 20-year-old Micras driving around the Leeds/Bradford area, probably because they are very cheap and easy to maintain cars. But you can't put it in a similar segment to something like a Leaf or Golf or Focus, which are midsize family hatchbacks.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 08:06:51 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 05, 2020, 03:32:12 pmThat's a wrong way to look at EV's. The price delta is, obviously, mostly down to the battery pack. You can get 250 km on a charge, you get 1000 cycles (or: at least you should) so you're buying 250 000km worth of battery. 13 000£/2300 => 5,6£/100km. Add to that about 0.25£ * 15 for the actual electricity cost and you end up with a total "fuel" cost of 9.5£/100km. Comparable to an ICE. In essence, you're paying fuel costs in advance rather than as you go. Whatever you get out of the battery after 1000 cycles is pure bonus.* yeah, electricity and fuel cost can/will vary

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 11:18:27 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 06, 2020, 07:44:35 amIt's not just the capacity drop % itself, it's also because the capacity of the 24kWh packs was barely enough for many daily tasks as it was when new (130km approx).If you add in 20-30% loss in range then that could tip the car into a category for many owners that no longer suits their daily needs.And factor in that the average age of a car is 10 years (it is here in Oz YMMV), and many owners will be starting to think about selling anyway after 6-7 years.Also factor in that EV owners tend to be early adopters of technology anyway, and that they have a higher disposable income than most, then that's a perfect storm for EV trade-in's around that mark I would suspect.No shortage of early 2014 and earlier Tesla model S's on the market, 359 of them on this site:https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/all-cars/tesla/model-s/beverly-hills-ca-90210?dma=&searchRadius=0&endYear=2014&isNewSearch=false&marketExtension=include&showAccelerateBanner=false&sortBy=relevance&numRecords=25&firstRecord=25

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 05:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 06, 2020, 07:48:02 amThen let me spell it out in 9 words: "£27,000 is not 'low cost' for a consumer item". Why is this so difficult for you to to grasp?*Go onto the Clapham Omnibus**and ask all the passengers if they agree or disagree with the statement "A £27,000 car is a 'low cost' car". A majority would disagree. It's not about car pricing in general, it's not aboutthisorthat, it's simply about what constitutes the perception of 'low cost' in an absolute sense with a subsidiary "even for a car" tacked on the end for good measure.**If the answer to that is "I've got more money than sense." I'd like to discuss some"investment opportunities"with you.**The English law definition of a "reasonable person" is tied up with theClapham Omnibus.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 05:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 06, 2020, 05:00:31 pmAnd £250,000 is not "low cost" for a house, but in my area you'd struggle to find anything else lower than price point. You would be silly to measure the cost of a car relative to the cost of a much smaller and lower specification vehicle.£27,000 for a mid-size family hatchback is not "low cost" compared to a £150 fridge or a £300 dishwasher, but it's "modest/low cost" as cars in that segment go. AFAIK the Leaf goes upwards of £42,000, which is "insanely expensive" for such a car, in my opinion.If you want a low cost EV you want something like a Skoda Citigo EV which is around £17,000 after PICG. That is pretty close to your Micra for a similar spec (and bonus, you're not driving a Nissan vehicle.)

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 05:07:21 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on September 06, 2020, 08:06:51 amIt's not about EVs, it's about the perception of £27,000 as being 'low cost' foranythingof a consumer nature.I can see why there's a problem with the uptake of EVs by the general population if there's a coterie of marketing people and engineers behind them who think they are offering 'low cost' solutions that are regarded by the general populace as 'bloody expensive' solutions as well as the general public being concerned about range issues.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 05:28:58 pm
content: Well I think part of the problem is a lot of people don't buy new cars. They either lease a new car, or buy a used car.And if you are buying a used car you haven't paid for that first 2-3 years of depreciation. I bought my Golf GTE at £15.8k, brand new it was £33k (invoice price) although prior owner was a leasing company but that means someone has eaten at least ~£16k on that car over 3 years. I recently got a quote and after 2 years, I'd still get £13.5k for it. Considerably lower depreciation.It does surprise me that people buy new cars. But I suppose we should be glad someone is willing to pay for all of that, otherwise the used car market would also dry up.So if you were to say, let's look at the used price of EVs compared to used price of ICE, the situation is perhaps a little more affordable?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 01:42:13 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 06, 2020, 05:28:58 pmI've looked at used EV's extensively for quite some time, even going to inspect a few.Conclusion is that at least here in Australia it's just not worth. You either go really and cheap (like say a 2014 LEAF for under $20k), or you go brand new with an 8 year battery warranty.For me the 8 year battery warranty is the killer reason to buy new.The few 2nd hand EV's availabel that are only a few years old really hold their premium here in Australia.You can maybe say a few buck on an ex-demo if you want find one, but again, not really worth it. Especially if you are considering Hyundai IONIQ as I am, as last years model was a 30% smaller battery pack to the latest model.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 04:13:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 07, 2020, 01:42:13 amDoes Chevy sell in Australia? Can you get a 2016/17/18Volt?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 04:28:56 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 07, 2020, 04:13:48 amSold for a very brief period here under the Holden brand and then discontinued shortly after. Probably a few around on the used market.My local dealer still has the Volt sign out the fronthttps://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.7344095,150.9810614,3a,75y,284.08h,91.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKpbCdnhxPOltAFG29xVyCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 04:39:29 am
content: We are on our second Volt. Very pleased and would buy another had Chevy not discontinued it.Did you see the videos on Tesla’s batteries? They are nearing one million miles.They are playing with the chemistry to make even better batteries. Sandy’s videos on how Tesla builds their cars and batteries is very interesting. One has to admire Tesla for how they are designing and building their cars.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 04:43:46 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 07, 2020, 04:39:29 amTesla's aren't affordable in this country. Even the model 3 at near $80k on the road cost is considered a luxury car price by most people.EV's already carry a huge premium here, but the Tesla's are in another bracket.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 01:18:59 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 07, 2020, 04:39:29 amYou keep quoting this "one million miles". What's your source? Can you point to a single vehicle that has actually pysically gone nearly a million miles or is this a hand-waving number that's come out of Tesla (or from one of their uncritical fans) based on accelerated testing under laboratory conditions that may not, and probably does not, truly represent actual real world conditions?If this was a 2008 Tesla Roadster it would have to have done circa 84,000 miles a year (8 hours a day, 365 days a year for 12 years @ 28.7 mph) to reach 1,000,000 miles by today. If a 2012 Tesla Model S it would have had to do 125,000 miles a year (43 mph for 8 hours every day for 8 years). So I doubt that this "nearly one million miles" is a real figure based on an actual driven car, and if it is, the mileages are so high the only way they can have been achieved is with a team of factory drivers driving an especially cosseted factory test car.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 01:22:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 07, 2020, 04:43:46 amI think you mean to sayunaffordable.For those "playing along at home" that $80k Aus is £44.3k GBP or $58k USD.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 01:46:52 pm
content: Theaverageprice of a new car in the US this year is $36K...

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 04:39:16 pm
content: That's amazing to me but maybe I'm just too frugal. My last new car was $25K including everything.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 05:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 07, 2020, 01:18:59 pmWhile you doubt the nearly one million miles did you research it at all? I've posted links.Did you bother to take a look at the Sandy Murano videos where he tests and tears apart Tesla's and other car manufactures batteries? In the videos he talks about Tesla battery "secret sauce".Dude, no offence but what a narrow minded way of thinking.... " the only way they can have been achieved is with a team of factory drivers driving an especially cosseted factory test car."That is NOT the only way. Don't you know about the kid who owns a fleet of Tesla's who drives people who do not want to fly from LA to Las Vegas? Several cars in his fleet are record holders for the highest millage Tesla's. He said the Tesla's were being fast Super Charged 4 or 5 times per day. If you have ever made that drive you would know the speeds you've stated are half or a third of what you've stated. And yes the kid burned out several Tesla battery packs in doing so.This kid is brilliant. With just $300 in his pocket he was able to get a Tesla X and started driving people from LA to Las Vegas in style. Prior to Covid I think he had 9 or 10 Teslas. Don't be so narrow minded in your thinking... These young kids today are proving you wrong.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VspjxmsIqxo&ab_channel=D%C3%86rik

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 06:07:53 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 07, 2020, 05:12:34 pmIt's not narrow minded it's called "critical thinking". There's a claim of "nearly a million miles", it's unsourced, and the figures look suspect. That you don't say "Source? Sure here it is: ..." suggests that you're just repeating a figure you've heard which may or may not have substantive backing. Again, if there's a nearly million mile Tesla out there, point to it, not an advert for some dude's airport taxi service that just happens to use Teslas.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 06:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 07, 2020, 06:07:53 pmThank you for using ""critical thinking skills" wish more people would. You are right to question me, but did you watch the Sandy Murno and the kid's airline substitute business? Both claim million miles for Tesla's battereis.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 06:35:20 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 07, 2020, 06:11:57 pm"Yes, as much as I could bear" and "just skimmed". The former is hand-waving and mindless techobabble (as others have pointed out), literally hearsay, the later an advert for someone's car service. Neither of them are a reliable source for a claim that Tesla are getting nearly a million miles out of a batteryin real world conditions, not 'accelerated' laboratory testing. Something that notable needs a peer reviewed scientific paper or at least some solid documentation before it becomes truly credible. Did you watch the video on Lithium battery chemistry with particular respect to Leaf and high temperatures? That puts the lie to, or at least reveals the flaws in, much of the laboratory based longevity results being bandied about by the manufacturers.Unless you can point to actual verification of this vaunted "million mile battery" then I don't think you're doing anybody any favours by repeating the claim. That's all it is without solid documentation, a claim.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 06:54:53 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 07, 2020, 06:35:20 pmYou raise an interesting question. Is the only information we should consider credible are peer reviewed scientific papers? What about companies like the one Sandy Murno owns where he is paid to tear-apart products and analyze them using scientific methods. Should we discount his work and findings because his work is not peer reviewed? From what I understand the man has an incredible reputation for producing excellent work.And what about the kid running a business. He's not a researcher yet he's sharing his business findings. He clearly has done some comparative business analysis of EVs with ICE to come up with a cost savings that an EV is 8 times less to fuel and maintain. Prior to covid his ACTUAL numbers on Tesla battery life are support the million mile claim. And I think there's another guy who has a Tesla in Germany that I think is approaching a million km.While I agree we sould never believe marketing hype, we can believe and trust the findings of other trusted sources.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 07:48:33 pm
content: Let's approach the "million-mile battery" from the other end: cycles.We know Tesla Powerwall is rated to 18MWh / 10 years, for a battery with a capacity of ~10kWh, guaranteeing residual capacity of >6.5kWh. That rates it to 1800 cycles (one cycle every 2 days.) A Model 3 has an efficiency of ca. 250Wh/mile, so a full 70kWh pack gives a nominal range of 280 miles. If we go with the same 1800 cycles estimation, then we have 504,000 miles.That's about half of the "million-mile" battery claim and doesn't take into account any degradation. It would be fair to derate this figure by around 10-20% to account for degradation of the pack over time, though it is notable that Li-Ion packs tend to degrade slowly initially, with degradation accelerating rapidly near end of life. So applying degradation to this is not as trivial as it first seems.However I do think that given Tesla warrant similar technology to around ~40% of the million mile claim, is not too bad; that probably means less than 5% of batteries will fail to achieve this claim as warranty claims are expensive.Things like bearings in the motor, gearbox wear and body problems will occur well before the battery degrades to a useless level.I think million-mile right now is probably on the optimistic end, but probably achievable soon. But the question is why worry, when for most people the rest of the car will have fallen apart before the battery even reaches 80% SoH. Cars are depreciating assets for a reason, some may do better than others, but outside of collectibles, I can't think of any car that climbs in value...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 11:17:25 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 07, 2020, 01:22:57 pmYep, oop's corrected.Unaffordable for Joe Average.I'm pretty darn sure I'm going to buy a new Hyundai IONIQ as a business car.With the savings from moving back to the old lab, some government COVID tax breaks, instant asset writeoff on the business, and hardly anything to pay over at least the next 8 years (battery warranty is 8 years, mechanicals should easily last that too), it's $50k up front now, but it should pay for itself.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 11:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 07, 2020, 11:17:25 pmJohn Cadogan gave a good review of the 3 versions of the IONIQ about a year ago.Is this guy known or well received in Australia? I like it that he's an engineer and his technical explanations. But as an American I find he can be a bit crude at times. I'm thinking most Australians wound't think so. Or would they?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 11:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 07, 2020, 11:25:38 pmHe's a typical aussie larrikin, and hamming it up for the camera.No aussie would bat an eyelid at the way he talks.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 11:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on September 07, 2020, 04:39:16 pmSame here. I have several cars... I'm a bit of a car nut... but the cost of the whole (pre-owned) collection doesn't even add up to one average priced new one!With no monthly payments to worry about, you find you have spare cash to buy superchargers, custom leather interiors, or whatever!

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 11:41:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 07, 2020, 11:28:30 pmThat's what I was thinking. I like watching him, but I don't think I should say I want to root with him. (I got that right.) I'm just not that kind of guy.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2020, 12:16:39 am
content: QuoteNice, DaveAnd you probably can pump electrons from your PV to the EV