Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ?   (In the USA?) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mcovington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 03:52:19 am
content: In my youth, "solder" was always pronounced "sodder" in the United States; "sole-der" in England.I think I'm sometimes hearing Americans pronounce the L now, more often "sol-der" than "sole-der". But I'm not sure. I'm going by YouTube videos, mainly, and I'm not always sure where people are from.What is your experience? Is the pronunciation with L catching on in the USA?BTW, I'm a linguist and have looked into the history of the word. The "sodder" pronunciation is actually older. The word is from French "souder," but the L was put into the spelling on the basis of the Latin etymology (related to "solid"), and eventually a lot of people started pronouncing the L. This is very similar to what happened with "salmon" except that nobody pronounces the L in that one.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 03:55:39 am
content: Please use the forum search feature for your answer.This topic has been trashed to death in the past on a couple of occasions.

author: mcovington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 03:58:45 am
content: OK, will do. I am a linguist, and for me, this is an actual question -- I'm not spoiling for a fight about it. I've been on both sides of the Atlantic and have pronounced the word both ways.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 04:00:37 am
content: Quote from: mcovington on December 20, 2022, 03:58:45 amSorry, I perhaps misread your intention.I will close the door on my way out...

author: mcovington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 04:02:31 am
content: No problem. The search feature immediately led me to some long brawls, but not actually the information I want -- which is to know whether a pronunciation with L is catching on in the USA. I'm not asking what is wrong or right; I know the origins and history of both; I'm just wondering whether some Americans are using the L pronunciation now.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 04:04:06 am
content: I have never heard the "L" in solder pronounced in the US.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 05:12:43 am
content: I've never pronounced the L, I've heard people do it before but only people that didn't actually know what solder was.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 07:40:55 am
content: Since I deal with US colleagues a lot on the job (but rarely discussing electronics), I am curious: In the common US pronounciation, is the 'L' suppressed in all forms of the word? E.g. would you say "soddering iron" too?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 08:24:19 am
content: Yes, to the point that RatShack guys took a few moments to understand what I'm talking about and then corrected me.Maybe my English just sucks

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 09:46:16 am
content: Do similar words like bolder, colder, folder get the same treatment?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 10:05:28 am
content: Logical consistency is not a concept which applies to English language in any of its dialects, or exists in America at all.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 11:37:26 am
content: Quote from: mcovington on December 20, 2022, 04:02:31 amIn the 2022 US election, over 150 million people legally voted, and not one pronounced the L in solder.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 11:58:42 am
content: As a native American English speaker, an electrical engineer, and someone who was once in a PhD linguistics program (specializing in phonology, no less): I pronounce "solder" as "sodder" and can't recall ever hearing any other Americans pronounce it with the "L".America and the UK: two great nations separated by a common language

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 12:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 20, 2022, 07:40:55 amYes. And even if it were spelled (spellt?) "Sottering iron" we would still pronounce it as "soddering iron"[Americans tend to voice stops between vowels, so most Americans ... myself included ... pronounce "battery" as if were spelled "baddery"]

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 12:38:11 pm
content: I think most folks are not introspective enough to be aware of subtle changes in pronunciation. I have shifted my pronunciation slightly over time, and currently have a faint, barely detectable hint of the ell sound before the d. Retaining the soft o.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 01:08:30 pm
content: Before tooki chimes in, a quick tldr "in a nutshell", if I remember the earlier discussions right, American English  is closer to the French origin "souder", without the L sound. This is not surprising; American English has evolved different paths from British English, after it got "frozen" some hundreds of years ago. The idea thatcurrentBritish English is somehow more "original" than current American English, is logically weird.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 01:14:08 pm
content: Oh no - not this again ...

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 02:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 20, 2022, 01:08:30 pmAn interesting note from the OED (Oxford English Dictionary), referenced by etymology.com:The -l- typically is sounded in British English but not in American, according to OED, but Fowler wrote that solder without the "l" was "The only pronunciation I have ever heard, except from the half-educated to whomspelling is a final court of appeal..." and was baffled by the OED's statement that it was American.So one of the co-authors of the classic "Modern English Usage" says that as far back as the late 1800s, the "educated" pronunciation of "solder" in Britain did not include the "L"Again, speaking as someone who made a living (well, such that it was) for many years in languages / linguistics: the most likely explanation, and the one supported by Fowler, is that the "L" was added by people who looked at the spelling and decided that they should pronounce the "L".And from the OP's comment, it appears that this is happening again in the 21st century: the "L-pronunciation" is being used because people are imitating what they hear a handful of YouTubers saying versus what the vast majority of professionals (whom they will never meet in person) typically say.

author: mcovington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 02:41:27 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 20, 2022, 07:40:55 amYes. That is the normal American pronunciation.The only reason I asked my question was to inquire about whether the L pronunciation is starting to pop up in America. Apparently so, and the obvious reason is spelling pronunciation (that is, people want to pronounce the word the way it is spelled) together with YouTube suddenly enabling us to hear the word pronounced by people from elsewhere (many of them outside the USA). I did find one person on another forum for whom the L pronunciation had been normal, in Savannah, Georgia, since at least the 1970s.The quote from Fowler (just above) is interesting. We know that the L originally was *not* pronounced when this word came into English. The history is:(1) English borrows the French word 'souder' and pronounces it 'sodder'(2) Spelling is changed to 'solder' on the basis of the Latin etymology (solidare)(3) Pronunciation adds the L because of influence from the spelling.Fowler must have observed British English before step (3) had run to completion over there. Step (3) never took place in America -- or so I thought -- but it seems to be doing it now.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 05:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 20, 2022, 07:40:55 amYes, and FWIW I've been using one for about 65 years now and all over the US and in Canada and a couple of other (non-European) countries and I have never heard it pronounced differently. Even the Brit from BA that I used to work with pronounced it "Sodder"."Sodder" Pot, "Sodder Paste", "Sodder Gun" and "Sodder" Sucker are four other common phrases and pronunciations. Oh and add "wave Sodder machine" and "wave Sodder" (verb) to the list. We always spell it with an "L" but it's never pronounced.And I forgot "Silver Sodder" (both a noun and a verb).YMMV,

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 05:42:52 pm
content: I'm not sure if it is true in America, but in Britain, "sodder" sounds slightly rude or uncouth (sod is an expletive), so it may be that British people moved away from pronouncing it the American way out of a sense of decorum?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 05:52:25 pm
content: "Sod" in American usage refers only to grassy lawns.I assume the rude British usage is short for "sodomy".

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 05:56:43 pm
content: I haven't looked up the etymology, but that sounds likely.It means a soddering iron would be akin to a buggering iron, which in the hands of the unskilled might not be too far from the truth

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 06:21:59 pm
content: Solder is from the Latin "solidus" mostly referring to a specific coin, or something "solid" or make something solid, I won't discuss the verbDon't know the Sanskrit equivalent at all, I stopped all Linguistics study at Medieval LatinHere in the Midwest we speak "United States" not quite "English" ( not even "Canadian") let alone Latin.Words change with use, an Elm tree used to be an Elem tree, a pronunciation that is used only in one small part of the US.Goofy stuff, Language is.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 06:23:29 pm
content: Quote from: mcovington on December 20, 2022, 02:41:27 pmI really don’t think it is. A few YouTubers who pronounce it wrong are not evidence of widespread change in usage.I mean, there’s another YouTuber who pronounces DOS (the old Microsoft operating system) as “dawz” despite getting flak about it in every video’s comments, but that doesn’t mean there’s a change in standard usage. (Which is “doss”, for anyone who doesn’t know how it’s pronounced in English.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 06:24:17 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on December 20, 2022, 06:21:59 pmNope, we got it from Frenchsouder, as already explained twice in this thread before now.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 06:25:57 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 20, 2022, 01:08:30 pmYou summed it up very well. Thank you for saving me the time!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 06:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 20, 2022, 06:24:17 pmIf the French can drop the L from the Latin origin, then the English can put it back again. It works both ways.Quote

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 06:50:39 pm
content: Thank you all for the clarification/confirmation of the American pronounciation!As a mildly off-topic addition, the German word for solder does not go back to Latin, but comes from a different Germanic origin. "Löten" (verb) or "Lot" (noun), which has found its way into English as "lead" (the metal).

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 09:41:06 pm
content: In a word, NO. That is pronounced no.Quote from: bitwelder on December 20, 2022, 09:46:16 am

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 09:42:54 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on December 20, 2022, 12:02:00 pmUnless it's a cheap Chinese knockoff, then it's a sodding iron in all pronounciations!

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 09:49:02 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 20, 2022, 06:50:39 pmMy copy of Duden's Herkunftswörterbuch agrees: "Lot" is from middle high German "lōt / lœten" (related to Dutch "lood" or English "lead"). It even claims that this word is either related to middle Irish "lūaide" or was borrowed from it (!)Interestingly, the German verb "loten" is derived from Lot in the same way that the English verb "to plumb" is derived from Latin plumbum (that is, the process of determining a vertical distance by means of a heavy / lead weight on the end of a string).

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 09:55:35 pm
content: As an exercise for the interested reader, research (or Google) the etymology of the pronunciation and spelling of the English military rank "colonel", which originates in French.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 09:56:00 pm
content: To my Australian ears many in the US pronounce o as ah. Soder becomes sah-dr.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 10:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: mcovington on December 20, 2022, 03:52:19 amThe “sodder” pronunciation is actually odder.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 10:01:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 20, 2022, 06:23:29 pmAgree completely. But it very well could be thecauseof a widespread change in usage.If big name, high-follower-count YouTubers like Veritasium, Mark Rober, Dave Jones, etc. suddenly started pronouncing it "soll-der," I think you might start to see that pronunciation being used by other people as well. (This would be a really interesting thesis / dissertation topic, by the way .... )Change in usage happens more quickly than some might think. I'm not that old, but I've seenmanychanges in English and German usage during my own lifetime, and I have to believe that the Internet, and in particular YouTube, are accelerating the rate of change in language.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 10:03:41 pm
content: We're just as likely to all start pronouncing it "weld" based on the AliExpress usage...

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 10:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: mcovington on December 20, 2022, 03:52:19 amThere is a Hebrew given name Salmon where the L is pronounced. I wonder how one of those people would pronounce so(l)der.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 10:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: bitwelder on December 20, 2022, 09:46:16 amNo, but there are many words that do get a silent "L", for example: salmon, almond, would, yolk, half, folk, palm, could, psalm, calve, walk, ...

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 11:05:28 pm
content: Quotesilent maybe,but in english english the L affects how the word is pronounced.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 11:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 20, 2022, 05:52:25 pmHere are some ways to use the word "sod" in British English:"Sodding hell!""This sodding iron doesn't work!""Well sod it, I'm going home!"

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 12:25:44 am
content: I was wondering along a similar lines or debates on how to pronounce "LED." Is it "L," "E," "D," or something that resembles the word "lead?" Maybe uneducated Brits pronounce "IC" is "ick."

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 12:35:59 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on December 20, 2022, 10:01:55 pmcApa-sEEtor , you Louis Rossman fans, not that 'capAcitor' rubbish

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 12:36:25 am
content: Here in the US (Silicon Valley) it's almost always pronounced "L E D" and rarely "lead".

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 12:56:06 am
content: Yeah uh. Some people also pronounce ARM "A R M" while others pronounce "arm". I tend to be in the first category although I've heard it pronounced "arm" so often that I'll sometimes use it too. But I find it kinda silly.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 01:01:52 am
content: Ever since ARM was first founded in the UK I've heard it pronounced "arm". I have never heard anyone say "A.R.M.". Make of that what you will.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 01:13:57 am
content: Quote from: mcovington on December 20, 2022, 02:41:27 pmI imagine that immigration may have something to do with it - I say the "L" simply because it sounds better to me as it is closer to the pronunciation in Portuguese ("solda" or [s′ɔwdә] or closer to "saul-duh")@jpanhalt, sorry to say but I voted last election and pronounce the "L"

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 01:16:48 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 20, 2022, 10:16:47 pmEven those words don't have universally silent Ls in all dialects.I pronounce the L in almond. I say ol-mond, but I've also heard all-mond and al-mond. My mother who's from Cheshire pronounces the L in yolk and folk.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 01:34:57 am
content: Quote from: aeberbach on December 20, 2022, 10:03:41 pmI think that's just due to translation software. I don't speak Chinese but I'm guessing they must typically use the same word for solder and weld, it definitely looks a bit odd though.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 01:38:10 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 21, 2022, 01:34:57 amPortuguese also uses the same word for both.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 03:26:20 am
content: The L in solder in the USA is obviously silent.Nobody here has ever heard the word "sodding" or would have any clue what it meant.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 03:28:05 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 20, 2022, 11:05:28 pmEven in American English, there is a pronunciation difference between "calm" and "cam".

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 04:04:58 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 21, 2022, 03:28:05 amThat makes me think of the "Mary", "marry", "merry" convergence, and wonder if there is any part of America where calm and cam sound the same?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 04:34:14 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 04:04:58 amMy knowledge of American dialect is not encyclopedic, but I know of several places where the word calm is pronounced with little or no ell sound. But in all of those areas the word cam is easily distinguished because the sound of the a is totally different in the two words. In no place that I have visited are the two words pronounced similarly.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 04:40:19 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 21, 2022, 01:16:48 amHere on the USA west coast we pronounce it all-mund. I think "ahmand" is an east coast thing.And I go with sodder.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 04:50:36 am
content: I’m not sure whatleadme here, but it’s some’tininteresting to pass the time.How to pronounce it properly? I guess there’s a 60/40 split in opinion… 😛

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 04:52:04 am
content: If almond is derived from the French amande, it would be a similar story to solder with the L spelling coming later.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 05:24:08 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 21, 2022, 03:28:05 amAlmond, folk, palm, walk all have the L pronounced though in the case of folk and especially walk it's subtle. At least here in the Northwest. I read somewhere years ago that people in this region speak a neutral American English with no regional accent.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 05:44:57 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 04:04:58 amTry the deep South. They insert "r's" almost randomly. My mom pronounced "Eva" as "E ver" (long e) so calm and cam might be pronounced carm and carm, respectively. She moved in 1945 to LA after he was discharged, but never completely lost that accent.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 06:01:15 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on December 21, 2022, 05:44:57 amThat reminds me, my grandmother grew up in Illinois and pronounced Washington "Warshington".

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 09:45:57 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 04:04:58 amI don’t think so.“Calm” vs “cahm” is one thing (presence or absence of L, but same vowel), while “cam” has a different vowel.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 09:56:10 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on December 21, 2022, 05:44:57 amThe “Mary”/“marry”/“merry” convergence isn’t about the R, it’s about the vowel.Linguistic processes are basicallyneverrandom. R insertion is common in non-rhotic dialects of English (in USA, that’s just the south and New England, but it’s most of the UK, and in Aus/NZ):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_RThe “intrusive R” (like in “Warshington”) in rhotic English is best known in the Midlands (Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri) dialect, and the Midatlantic (Maryland, Delaware, Philadelphia) dialect.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 10:46:23 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on December 21, 2022, 05:44:57 amI've lived in the Carolinas almost my entire life and if anything, I would say the difference between "calm" and "cam" is evengreaterhere than in other parts of the United States (due to the "twang", i.e. nasalization, in "cam")

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 10:54:31 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 01:01:52 amWondering if I should start another thread just to discuss the pronunciation of VSWRI have always pronounced this as "viz-wahr" but have received ... passionate ... feedback that it should be sounded out letter by letter: V.S.W.R. I would say at least 90% of my R&S co-workers and customers pronounce this "viz-wahr"I like to point out that when you say "VSWR" dozens of times a day, those extra 4 syllables start to make a difference: viz-wahr (2) vs. vee-ess-doub-ble-you-are (6)

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 11:50:08 am
content: This thread is putting me to sleep. Gotta catch somezeds.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 11:56:37 am
content: Then there's the 'N' word (as in fission and fusion) which is apparently down to the poor reading and pronunciation skills of certain American Presidents.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 04:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 21, 2022, 12:56:06 amWhat kind of sicko pronounces it “ey are em”?IIRC from an interview with one of the guys who invented it, they pronounced it like the limb.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 04:30:32 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 21, 2022, 11:56:37 amMany people pronounce it “nucular” (which I do not believe to be down to spelling). It is not limited to American presidents, nor just to Americans:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NucularThe presidential goof that really was shocking was the one who pronounced Bhutan and Nepal as “button” and “nipple”.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 04:38:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 21, 2022, 09:45:57 amAlphabetical spelling is an encoding of pronunciation.In the original Latin, this encoding was probably efficient (I am not fluent in Latin).As the Latin alphabet spread to other languages, including non-Romance languages (Germanic, etc.), the encoding became less consistent."Calm" vs "cam" is an example of a silent letter used in this encoding to differentiate between two different sounds, neither of which includes the "L" consonant.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 05:24:09 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on December 21, 2022, 10:46:23 amOh. I'm used to hearing Dan pronounced as "Day'en". Are you saying cam would be pronounced like "cay'em"? I suppose that would be right.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 05:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 21, 2022, 04:38:10 pmAlphabetic spelling is an encoding of what wethinkthe pronunciation is, not what itactuallyis (or ever was). In linguistics, theseconceptualspeech sounds are called “phonemes”. But in actuality, many phonemes have multiple “allophones”, which are the actual speech sounds created, after application of the pronunciation rules of the language. (For example, English has two different “k” sounds (allophones), but because they occur in mutually exclusive situations, we mentally collapse them down to a single “k” phoneme.)Alphabetic spelling is based on phonemesat most, so they are not complete guides to pronunciation even in languages often considered to have highly regular spelling, like German.Anywho, in your original comment about calm, what do you mean by “cam”, then: the things camshafts have multiple of, or the word “calm” with a silent L?Because the issue is that there are THREE pronunciations to deal with:Calm with L pronouncedCalm with silent LCam

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 05:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 05:24:09 pmYep. (I lived in NC for 7 years, so I’m well acquainted with their dialects, though my own English made it through largely unscathed! :p)I remember in third grade, in a spelling test, the teacher spoke the word — “pee’un” — and then realized her own speech has the “pin-pen merger” and blurted out “that’s ‘pee’un’ p-e-n, not ‘pee’un’ p-i-n”, followed a moment later by a facepalm.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 06:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 21, 2022, 05:43:28 pmI was just commenting on how normal English spelling employs the silent "L" to distinguish between the words "calm" (as in absence of wind) and "cam" (as in camshaft).Spelling is a code, and is not an efficient coding for phonemes.For that, you need to use the various "phonetic alphabets", as used in dictionaries to describe pronunciation accurately.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 07:37:58 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 01:01:52 amI've worked at companies that either use or produce ARM parts for twenty years and I've never heard anyone call it "A.R.M." -- always "arm".

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 07:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 21, 2022, 07:37:58 pmThe thread was all about how words are pronounced in various parts of the world, if you noticed. So you'll be surprised how some words can be prounounced differently in different parts of the world, they already are within the same country. All the more for acronyms. In some languages, it is even unusual to pronounce acronyms as nouns. The world is a big place.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 07:59:41 pm
content: Two problems with the question, IMO. First is that the individual's background is more important than their current location. Second is that the US is a big enough place that regional differences are significant.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 08:18:28 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 21, 2022, 07:53:59 pmBut ARM is a name, the name of a company and a brand. Usually, the people who own a name get to choose how it should be pronounced. If you pronounce it differently than the owner of the name, then they are entitled to tell you that you are wrong.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 08:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 08:18:28 pmIn my current position, I've been on a number of conference calls with ARM employees, and they always pronounce it "arm".

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 09:03:14 pm
content: "ARM" is a good example of an acronym, a word formed from a pronounceable abbreviation.

author: Dave Wise
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 09:43:11 pm
content: I've used solder for 55 years and never heard an "L" until I watched a Dave videoAnother DaveUS west coast, brought up by Minnesotans, you betcha.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 10:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 21, 2022, 04:34:14 amSome American dialects, particularly ones in the Deep South, sound really bizarre to my West Coast ears. Example: "clothes" is pronounced "clays".

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 11:03:09 pm
content: Quotesounds like glaswegian

author: gbaddeley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 07:31:35 am
content: I’m an Aussie that started soldering when I was about 12, in the 1970’s. Until 2018, when I started getting into YouTube electronics videos (Bob Pease etc) I had never heard it pronounced sod-der. I was wondering if he had a speech impediment 🤔

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 07:50:07 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 21, 2022, 07:53:59 pmNobody disagrees with that in principle. But I’ve never heard ARM pronounced spelled-out in any language. Everyone says “arm”, with the exact pronunciation of the three sounds within varying on the language.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 07:54:43 am
content: I just made myself chuckle by wondering if anyone ever pronounced IBM as “ibbum” or something.A funny, now largely obsolete acronym, is SCSI: only noobs pronounce it “ess see ess eye”. Likely apocryphally, some people early on suggested pronouncing it “sexy”. But the pronunciation that stuck, not only in English but also in many other languages, was “scuzzy”.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 08:05:20 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 22, 2022, 07:54:43 amWell done for teaching the world the “correct” way to pronounce an acronym. lol.Acronyms are, by their very definition, a contraction of a description into its initial letters to avoid tediously speaking out the entire description ; there is no “correct” way to pronounce them, they aren’t meant to be pronounced. To say what you’ve said is to say “that’s the incorrect pronunciation of that slang” - in essence, it’s a matter of choice whether one creates a phonetic analogue of said acronym so it rolls of the tongue more easily, or whether they formally say “Ess See Ess Eye” <—— (phonetically worded for clarity).One might even say that formally pronounced, letter by letter, is more correct than the “slang” equivalent of forming these contractions back into words, since there’s only marketing people who sometimes create pronounced acronyms for the same reason anyone else does; to make them memorable (and profitable, in their particular case.)“NICAM” is an example of this, but even then, that doesn’t mean it’s “right”, and that any other spoken version of “NICAM” letter by letter is, therefore, “wrong”, it’s just what happened to stick.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 08:22:59 am
content: Based on the sheer amount of atrocious spelling and grammatical errors even on BASIC words (and yes some are dyslexic and can’t be helped), which I’ve seen on EEVblog over the years (and a fair number from the great founder, even), I’m not sure I’d pick this forum as a reference for correctness of the English language or pronunciation rules. I’d point folks maybe to:https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/29374/pronouncing-acronyms

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 09:37:55 am
content: Quote from: gbaddeley on December 22, 2022, 07:31:35 amG'day mate. Same pondering here in the UK.I wonder if they wear out their shoe sods rather than shoe souls, get on the sod-train and sell their sods to the devil?More worryingly, sod-dering can be used in English as a slang term for man-o-man action. Keep your soddering iron hot? I don't think so. We also use, sodding around or sodding about, to describe incompetent behaviour.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 09:46:55 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 22, 2022, 07:54:43 amAnd it goes the other way too. I had been in China for almost a week before I realized that the Chinese were pronouncing "app" as A-P-P.Quote from: tooki on December 22, 2022, 07:54:43 amI wonder which came first, SCSI or SCPI ("skippy")?I will say that although I pronounce GPIB as "gee-pib," I also hear plenty of people spell that one out (G.P.I.B.)And serial protocol acronyms are all over the place. Some are spelled out (USB, PCIe), some are read as words (SPI, CAN), some are hybrids (UART - you-art) and one is even read in "mathspeak" (I2C - i-squared-c).As someone who does a lot of technical presentations and videos, how to pronounce acronyms is actually a pretty important topic. I did a webinar on NVIS and we had a bit of a debate about how I should pronounce "NVIS". In the end, I chose to use "nih-vus" because that's how most of our .mil/.gov customers pronounce this, but there were plenty of votes for N.V.I.S. as well.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 10:00:03 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 22, 2022, 08:22:59 amPoint takenBut my personal feeling is that this forum is an excellent reference fortechnical(and specifically, electronics-related) English pronunciation and usage.When I was in engineering school I supported myself in part by working as a translator, and it drove me absolutely crazy when non-technical editors would tell me the "correct" way to translate or phrase technical concepts in English. The "correct" way isalwayshow native speakers working in that field say it

author: kjpye
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 10:05:15 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on December 22, 2022, 09:46:55 amwhich is of course the "correct" pronunciation. Its the spelling which is wrong. The original spelling was I²C, but people were using systems which were incapable of representing that, or were incapable of typing it, so it became corrupted to I2C; at least enough of the origin was remembered to keep the "i-squared-c" pronunciation.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 10:11:20 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 22, 2022, 08:05:20 amI never said “right” or “wrong”. I said only noobs spell it out, which isn’t the same thing. Only noobs spell it out because a) they haven’t learned the common pronunciation, and b) haven’t yet gotten tired of how much longer spelling it out is. (“ess see ess eye” is four syllables, “scuzzy” is two.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 10:15:44 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on December 22, 2022, 09:46:55 amSCSI was first, standardized in 1986. SCPI was released in 1990, by which point SCSI was already widespread in UNIX workstations, Macs, and high end PCs.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 10:49:29 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 22, 2022, 10:15:44 amI actually built a PC (from scrap parts) that had SCSI drives and a GPIB interface and I used it to control instruments via SCPIPity that FDDI ("fiddy") was already dead at that point, otherwise I might have used that for the LAN connection - way faster than Token Ring

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 12:22:46 pm
content: I remember a meeting where a Canadian dude was going on and on about the need to implementsequel methodologies. After an hour we realised he was talking about S-Q-L. MySQL to be accurate. Yep, done that.As forRijndael Ecryption, just accept yanks are going to call itrain doll hashing.Re Kicad; is it Kye-Cad or Key-Cad?FIGHT

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 12:54:55 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on December 22, 2022, 12:22:46 pmWikipedia says (/ˈkiːˌkæd/ KEE-kad) and that's how the core developers pronounce it. But each unto his own. That's how languages work. You will pronounce a word with your own accent that feels most comfortable. Only if your own pronunciation stands out, you will try to "correct" it and adjust to your surroundings.And that leads to something I observed. In some of the latest videos with Linus Torvalds, I heard that he is pronouncing his own name in the American way (lye-nus), instead of how he originally pronounced it in his Finland Swedish (lee-nus) (Linus is btw pronounced with the "ee" vocal in most European languages, except English). Linuxis also supposed to be pronounced in the same style (lee-nuks).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 01:08:22 pm
content: Quoteskippys been bouncing around since 1968

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 01:21:32 pm
content: One that amuses me is the various pronunciations of Aldi and Lidl I hear in the UK. The greater the speaker's snobbishness, the more outlandish they seem to become!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 01:43:07 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 22, 2022, 01:21:32 pmThat one is easy -- "ull-dee" and "leedl".But I assume an anglicized pronunciation is normally used in the UK and US?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 01:59:27 pm
content: Ah, thanks, the official versions. There have been a few tv programmes recently on how they achieve their pricing and the famous centre isles - even senior executives, both German and British seem to have variations.Yes, they are anglicized a bit, typically al-dee and, well, li-dl. Aul-dee seems to be spreading, together with ly-dl among the folks I previously mentioned.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 02:03:04 pm
content: And then theres those who go to le dahls with there m+s carrier bags

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 02:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on December 21, 2022, 10:54:31 amWe always spoke of SWR as swahr, so VSWR was Vee Swahr. My physics teacher (who was also the licensed rad shack operator and had his own observatory) was extremely English, and was most particular about his pronunciation. Did I mention he was English? Very, very English. I have no idea where the "ah" in SWR came from, but it seemed to make sense when instructed.He was also the one that was absolutely vociferous that a PUT was to be annunciated as a Pee You Tee and had absolutely no relation to golf as that was a silly game invented by the Scottish. Very, very English.Dads family are all American, from Minnesota to Texas. We visited a lot over the years, and the astonishing range of colloquialism and pronunciation always fascinated me. I learned not to make it a *thing* because I came from a country that had a Koala in every tree and Kangaroos jumped down every suburban street. Stereotypes can be fun (especially as a 14 year old).

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 02:54:52 pm
content: Quote from: eti on December 22, 2022, 08:05:20 amThe definition of an acronym is a pronounceable word formed from an abbreviation, i.e. "laser", "NASA", "radar", etc.From Merriam-Webster on the difference between acronym and initialism:(They weasel at the end about a sometimes use of acronym. I prefer careful usage.)'What is the difference between an acronym and an initialism?Both acronyms and initialisms are made up of the first letter or letters of the words in a phrase. The word acronym typically applies when the resulting thing can be read as a word; for example, radar comes from "radio detection and ranging" and scuba comes from "self-contained underwater breathing apparatus." The word initialism only applies when the resulting thing is read as an abbreviation; for example DIY, which comes from "do it yourself," is pronounced by saying the names of the letters. Note that the word acronym is also sometimes used to mean "initialism."'Terms ending in "onym" include synonym, antonym, homonym, etc. for specific types of words.I often harp on this question of careful usage, because Irejectthe following syllogism:"An acronym is a specific type of abbreviation. Therefore, all abbreviations are acronyms."

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 03:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 22, 2022, 02:54:52 pmThat's not a syllogism but a fallacy in my book.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 03:56:23 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 22, 2022, 01:08:22 pmEvery source I’ve found says the SCPI standard was published in 1990.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 03:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 22, 2022, 03:56:23 pmYeah, I'm old enough to get his references..

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 04:42:47 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 22, 2022, 03:29:53 pmThat's why Irejectedit.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 04:52:42 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 22, 2022, 04:42:47 pmI understand that you don't subscribe to the wrong conclusion. But I found it funny that you called it a syllogism, after harping about careful use of words and dropping an above-average number of greek and latin loan words.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 04:58:32 pm
content: I stand corrected: a syllogism requires two propositions and a conclusion.If this fallacy were worth defending, I would have to construct it differently, splitting the first sentence into two propositions.(PS: almost everything in modern English is a loan word, giving it hybrid vigor.)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 05:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 22, 2022, 01:43:07 pmYes, but probably a bit similar, for instance "al-di" and "lid-l". Unlike, say, BMW.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 05:28:56 pm
content: A better-formed (yet still fallacious) syllogism:1. Nothing is better than seeing God.2. Cold coffee is better than nothing.3. Therefore, cold coffee is better than seeing God.Taken from "Dr No", a recent novel by Percival Everett (2022) about a mathematics professor at Brown University whose specialty is "nothing" and is the world's leading expert on nothing.https://www.graywolfpress.org/books/dr-no