MCU that support DDR and gigaethernet? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 03:56:53 pm
content: Is a MCU that can support 2G DDR RAM and has gigabit ethernet interface?

author: fchk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 04:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: honestgold on June 23, 2023, 03:56:53 pm2Gbit or 2GByte?DDR: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; LP or standard?You should look at Cortex-A: NXP iMX-6...8, nVidia Jetson modules, AMD Zynx ARM/FPGA combos,...fchk

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 04:42:33 pm
content: PIC12F508(may need some interface logic)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 07:51:00 pm
content: Not that I know of.You probably already realized that with those requirements, you're more in the area of arm SOCs. Do you have a good reason for not willing to go that way?Of course we'll also need to agree on what you call a MCU here.What's your application?I seem to remember that a MCU with gigabit ethernet support was mentioned a while ago, but I'm not 100% sure and I don't remember the vendor and model.But a MCU supporting DDR RAM, I do not know of any.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 08:03:05 am
content: CH32V307VCT6 has gigabit ethernet

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 09:28:27 am
content: What are you actually building and why do you think you need a microcontroller?

author: sd
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 10:44:05 am
content: https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-microcontrollers/i-mx-rt-crossover-mcus/i-mx-rt1170-first-ghz-crossover-mcu-with-arm-cortex-m7-and-cortex-m4-cores:i.MX-RT1170This one supports SDRAM and gigabit ethernet.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 04:17:16 pm
content: That i.MX also includes HyperRAM, which is DDR, but I imagine not the "DDR computer RAM" that was intended by OP.Honestly these specifications just describe a MPU. But there is no reason you can't run bare metal code on a MPU.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 12:04:50 pm
content: Those i.MX parts are great, except they are pricy, and usually comes in BGA, also the stock is questionable but this baby CH32V307VCT6 from wch is supper cheap if you buy it directly from wch

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 02:13:35 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on June 25, 2023, 12:04:50 pmI had to check how a 3 buck LQFP MCU managed to support DDR....

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 08:10:46 pm
content: None of these MCUs (neither NXP nor WCH) support DDR RAM. Or do they?

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 04:02:21 am
content: I see TI has Siatra that is pretty impressive, but maybe NXP is more popular has better support. Price little more expensive is not a big issue for me.I was using ATMEL before, but they have been behind on the Gigabit Ethernet front.I need at least 2G RAM, or maybe 4, and also NVIMe module because I need to store a lot of video data. VIDEO comes in and get stored in RAM first, then they get pipelined to NVIMe disk for permanent storage. Need Gigabit Ethernet because I need to server the data to the clients.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 04:15:18 am
content: Uh yeah, given your requirements here, you definitely don't need a MCU, but a full-blown SOC running an OS.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 05:52:58 am
content: Sounds like a job for a raspberry pi or one of the many similar SBCs. What interface and data format is the video source? That's going to determine your choices more than the ram or network interface.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 08:27:51 am
content: NVMe = SATA/PCIe = (high-end) SoC. Maybe you can use a USB3 to NVMe adapter though, if they are reliable.I think the RPi compute module does have PCIe. But they are also hard to get sometimes.But in such an application, I would also consider whether you need video compression (and could use a h264/h265/av1 encoder) or want to bother with the data rates of RAW.And indeed, if RAW, you're probably talking many tens of MB/s, so it's also a question how to take in data.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 05:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: honestgold on June 26, 2023, 04:02:21 amLook at the iMX8MQ from NXP. But you'll need to run Linux on it

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 05:45:50 am
content: Quote from: honestgold on June 26, 2023, 04:02:21 amAgain, why do you think you need a microcontroller?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 12:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on June 27, 2023, 05:45:50 amProbably "advised" by self-professed "experts" who say you need an FPGA or a "high-end Intel Core i9" to achieve something like that, because their top-tier Windows machine can barely do it. As it is just a few clicks to set up in Windows, it must be even easier on a microcontroller, right?_ _ _ _ _I'd look atOrange Pi 5 Plus(wikiindicates HDMI input is already supported) for this. The RK3588 SoC manufacturer is known to at least try to push support into upstream Linux, which greatly helps with long-term maintenance.When experimentation shows it does whatever is required of it, I'd start the huge work of designing my own RK3588 Linux board, if necessary. (Of course, just buying the boards in bulk directly fromShenzhen Xunlong Software Co.would make a lot more sense.)There is enough systems integration work (including priorities between video capture, storage, and serving, and possibly core assignments for service processes across the A55 and A72 cores) to make such a system work reliably and well; adding completely new hardware into the mix is just asking for trouble if alternatives already exist.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 06:44:06 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 27, 2023, 12:37:30 pmAnd who do you speak to if your board doesn't work? How are you going to verify the memory interface without tools provided by the manufacturer? How to contact the manufacturer anyway? And how long is that Rockchip going to be available? If you want to design a board with a SoC that has design support, a well tested Linux environment and a long lifespan then your only choices are NXP or TI. Both have excellent support to get a design done right. When designing boards with a SoC, manufacturer support is super important in order to be able to create a stable product. With new chips even more so because you might get bitten by things not being mentioned in the datasheet (been there, done that). Or how about getting reference designs? In these cases it helps when you can open a support ticket and a representative from the manufacturer actually gives you a real answer.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 07:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 27, 2023, 06:44:06 pmI see you have no idea what or who Rockchip is. Hint: They are one of the rare fabless Chinese SoC companies that pushes support upstream into vanilla Linux kernels (they employ several active Linux kernel developers, working on supporting their SoCs) – so do TI and NXP –, and even do some of the developmentin the open. There are dozens of companies creating SBCs based on Rockchip chipsets, like Olimex, Hardkernel, Shenzen Xunlong Co (Orange Pi), and a shitload of companies making Android appliances like media centers.Granted, I have not designed or created my own SBC, but then again, I did say it would make a lot more sense in my opinion to buy existing RK3588/RK3588S boards exposing the desired peripherals.For NXP i.MX8, Olimex has a very powerful OSHW SBC,iMX8QM-TUKHLA, but as of 2023-06-27, it's out of stock.Anyway, my point was to first use an existing SBC to see what kind of performance is actually required. RK3588 has both HDMIinputas well as output, and supports PCIe 3.0 x1 or x2 for fast (up to 2Gbytes/second) M.2 PCIe storage; Rock 5B even has dual 2.5G Ethernet, making it very suitable as a test platform.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 07:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 27, 2023, 07:22:35 pmI knowexactlywhat Rockchip is because I have evaluated some of their chips for a new design for a customer but decided against it due to lack of crucial information. (Amongst other things) I design SBCs + software environment for a living for quite some time already. Let me tell you that a manufacturer pushing kernel updates (or not) is the very least of your problems when you design an SBC. Choosing a manufacturer solely because they push kernel updates is pretty much insane. First you need to make sure you can actually get the information to succesfully design & bring up a board. Without that information you are just left with just an impossible idea.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 08:56:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 27, 2023, 07:28:09 pmOlimex has done it and even made it OSHW, many more are doing it right now, and only you cannot. Who should I trust? You? Ehh, no, thanks.Because it has been done and is being done by so many wildly different parties, I do not need to care about how easy it is to design a SBC around the Rockchip SoC.People like you who only care how much of the hardware design work will the vendor do for you, almost always forget the software side, especially the systems integration work, and provide their users with unmaintainable messy forks of the Linux kernel with arbitrary-version toolchains as "SDKs", with who knows how many security and instability-causing bugs. All you care is how cheap and easy the design work was. That is disgusting to me, because it leads to just more shitty products in the world.This is why it is so damned important for the original SoC manufacturer to provide support directly upstream: it largely determines whether the SBC is useful in the long term or not. (Typically, for upstream Linux support nowadays, SBCs based on Rockchip SoCs really only need a full device tree description, as most peripherals are already well supported by various drivers.) You don't care, because it does not affect your income, but I care, because it affects every single end user much more than any of your worries.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 09:59:49 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 28, 2023, 08:56:03 amAgain, you are seriously underestimating the complexity here. Olimex likely has access to support from Rockchip directly to get documentation & integration manuals (maybe this stuff is only available under NDA and with the promise to do some serious production volumes). And how stable is the Olimex design? Can you run a batch of 1000 boards 24/7 for weeks on end at full load without one crashing? How are you going to validate that? It looks like they used Kicad which by itself is seriously underpowered for these kind of designs (*). Maybe they ran the layout through an impedance & trace length / delay analyser. The fastest memory Olimex has used in their designs seems to be DDR3-1600 (800MHz) and the question is whether they run it at full speed. The reality is that if you are going to buy a few chips at most, a lot of doors stay closed for you.The RK3588 you mentioned needs a crapload of memory bandwidth. I have not been able to find what the actual memory speed is but I reckon the memory is clocked at frequencies between 2GHz (4GBit/s per bit lane) to 3GHz (6Gbit/s per bit lane). This means that there is a square wave with a frequency of 2GHz to 3GHz travelling over your board. This is far from trivial to design and you really need the manufacturer's tools. For the iMX8 series NXP offers tools to configure the memory settings (a couple of hundred settings) and a tool that creates the correct memory initialisation which is tailored to your board design. And the iMX8 series 'only' goes to 3.2GBit/s per bit lane (1.6GHz clock) ...Part of your problem is also slowness of kernel maintainers. Especially when chips are new, there is a storm of kernel patches. Using a mainstream kernel isn't an option if your product needs to ship ASAP. Still, you can switch to a mainstream kernel once stuff has matured. For example: all NXP iMX8 stuff is also in the mainstream kernel but behind in respect to NXP's own repository due to slowness of picking up the patches and putting these into a stable mainstream kernel. For some projects it will still take extra work to upgrade the kernel. For some of the projects I did the customer wanted to have a selection of kernel startup logos centered while supporting various screen resolutions. The standard Linux kernel doesn't support doing that.*IIRC the reference designs made by Rockchip are designed using Orcad Allegro (which I also use). Even Altium isn't good enough.

author: fchk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 03:35:13 pm
content: Quote from: honestgold on June 26, 2023, 04:02:21 amIf this project has low quantities I'd recommend NVidia Jetson Orin Nano. This module has got very good video support, lots of CUDA cores for processing and en/decoding, and there are 8G RAM on the module. Using such a module reduces the complexity and project risks by one or two powers of 10.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 03:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: fchk on July 02, 2023, 03:35:13 pmNot really. If you want to reduce the risk, then get an TI Sitara or NXP iMX based module. The NVidia modules are troublesome to get working well because software support isn't fantastic which in turn is caused by the archaic way NVIdia's chips are gobbled together from various pieces. There is a steep learning curve involved with getting the PCI express & usb interfaces up & running for example. Been there, done that.

author: fchk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 06:39:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 02, 2023, 03:50:22 pmI've also designed several Jetson carrier boards, and I didn't find the whole thing unusual difficult.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 06:39:44 pm
content: Good luck with a chinese chip if they invade Taiwan

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 06:47:57 pm
content: Quote from: fchk on July 02, 2023, 06:39:11 pmBut did you try to get a different arrangement of PCI / USB busses and drive an LVDS screen split over 2 DSI interfaces? Sorting through the DTB files is a real nightmare IMHO. Copying the eval board with the bus arrangements as-is is easy ofcourse. The trouble starts when you need something that is slightly different compared to the eval board. A lot is not documented properly by NVidia or when it is, you have to dig deep into manuals that may not seem applicable at first sight or even hunt for forum posts that are hidden deeply.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 06:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 02, 2023, 06:39:44 pmI think if that goes down you'd be lucky to get any chips"Taiwan makes 65% of the world's semiconductors and almost 90% of the advanced chips."

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 08:25:36 pm
content: Sure, but it depends on whether they invade and succeed, or invade and fail. The former will be a problem for us all. The latter will be a lesser problem but will likely result in sanctions against China.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 09:15:06 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 02, 2023, 08:25:36 pmHow would e.g. USA sanction an entity that owns over a trillion dollars (over 1,000,000,000,000 USD) of US Treasury Securities? (Ref)Nope. The situation is much more complex, and much more dire. We rely on fiat currency, and if that ever collapses in its own impossibility –– which is likely if we start throwing trillions of dollars as a weapon in a mixed hot and financial war ––, it's restart the society time: it's the ordinary populations that have to deal with it. The elite doesn't care, they have their remote retreats almost ready now. Food will be much more important (and hugely expensive, because of the current relative cheapness of machinery and technologies used to produce food) than any electronic gadgets.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 09:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 02, 2023, 09:15:06 pmIt is very simple: the USA will void the loans. Just like what happened to rich Russians who support the attack on Ukrain. They no longer own the money and goods. How is China going to enforce payback being a roque, terrorist state (in case they invade Taiwan)? Also notice that the amount of outstanding money to China has been reduced significantly. The most recent amount is on the left (contrary to what you'd expect).

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 04:01:32 am
content: raspberry 's Broadcom CPU is bad with peripheral. Terrible documentation and many features not supported. TI/NXP/ATMEL/ST are strong with peripheral. I believe Raspberry chose a bad CPU for the project. Should have gone with one of the above I mentioned.

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 04:08:56 am
content: I agree, I would not touch a Chinese company for MCU. Besides political risk, it is very hard to get support from them.If I have office next to them and know their boss, I might consider their chips.

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 04:16:53 am
content: What would you choose for a new project in your opinion? TI Sitara or NXP IMX8?My main concern is good documentation and decent support. I have been using IT and ATMEL and Analog for a long time and they are pretty good. Microchip is slower than Atmel.Never worked with NXP or ST before. Heard NXP chips are in shortage.Also, do you know if Real-time linux available on SITARA/IMX8? I don't need very strict RT, but need to know worst-case timing boundary. I know they support FREE RTOS, but driver for ethernet and USB might not be available. I need driver for gEthernet and USB for the project. I did port a lw-tcp/ip to a barebone system before, but it takes too much time.thank you,

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 08:25:10 am
content: Quote from: honestgold on July 03, 2023, 04:01:32 amIt would be helpful to know what peripherals you need, to do exactly what. That's why I ask again, why do you need an MCU?Raspberry chose what they chose because they had connections (they basicallyarea spinoff "charity" (LOL) by Broadcom) and got the chips for cheap. It's worth remembering the original Raspberry project was coined to get rid of some aging SoC stock no one wanted to buy. The company ("foundation") never became "open" and have always been fundamentally against any openness, that's why you see no documentation, but binary blobs, DRM and artificial constraint of supply. A horrible platform to do anything interesting on (professionally or hobby), but good for the original "let's blink a LED with Python while browsing web".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 09:21:02 am
content: Quote from: honestgold on July 03, 2023, 04:16:53 amI think both are equally well supported so it really comes down to the peripherals you need. However, I strongly suggest to avoid having to use the DSP cores in the Sitara devices. Then you have to focus on 2 entirely different platforms which doesn't help to move forward quickly. Better get extra ARM cores to do number crunching or a GPU that supports OpenCL (like the iMX8 series offers). Stay on the beaten path so to say and avoid vendor proprietary solutions.The iMX8 typically have extra Cortex-M4 cores for doing realtime stuff so that might be an option. I suspect TI has a similar solution in their Sitara devices.

author: onsenwombat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 10:22:15 am
content: Quote from: honestgold on July 03, 2023, 04:08:56 amAgree on both. Unfortunately I cannot give details on the cases, but have been a sort of second row spectator on issues related to 2 Chinese chip fabs. One was quite honestly dogshit design that they showed zero intention on fixing, and the other was (still is I reckon) in "we're trying to investigate" loop for months without much to present. Whether they're actually doing anything on their own, or just delaying and milking whatever information they might get from the poor customer, lord knows.Bottom line is, as they say you should not take the 'typical' value from any datasheet for ~any worth, in these cases (without better first hand knowledge) it could be worthwhile to doubt every single line in the datasheets, application notes, and heck even NDAs to boot.I'd rather build my device from vacuum tubes than anything from that country, but everyone suit themselves I guess.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 10:37:05 am
content: Quote from: onsenwombat on July 03, 2023, 10:22:15 amThat is a bit too short sighted. Chinese make lots of good stuff as well. I rather remove the bad apples from a basket than throwing the entire basket away. I have been pleasently surprised with Gowin FPGAs and the Espressif stuff is thouroughly & honestly documented as well.

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 06:25:20 pm
content: Some SEM companies have background intertwined with Taiwan. Hard to tell from the website. Anyway CCP is bad for business and it is scaring a lot of people away from many good businesses based in China.

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 06:29:57 pm
content: Yah, I did not know the Broadcom connection. Now it makes sense.I need SPI slave / DMA interface and the the Broadcom does not support slave. Not surprised, Broadcom is good with asic but never strong with MCU.

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 04:06:23 am
content: Can you recommend a good SOM vendor for NPX IMX8 or IMX8-plus?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 07:07:34 am
content: Quote from: honestgold on July 11, 2023, 04:06:23 amI'd start at Variscite (https://www.variscite.com/)I have not used these modules but their software support is good. They use a standard Debian distribution with the binaries from NXP added on. That gives a much faster start than using NXP's archaic Yocto software.Biggest downside of using modules is that long term availavility and software compatibility may be an issue. If you plan to produce more than 200 units, a full custom design will be cheaper and more reliable -from a supply chain perspective-.

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:55:47 am
content: I am in the US, and I sent couple emails to Varicites but no replies. Seems they are in Israel.Cannot find a phone number in the US. Maybe they don't have an office here.

author: sd
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 08:40:24 am
content: Has anyone used these?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 08:27:45 pm
content: Nope, but that looks interesting.https://www.ti.com/product/AM2434I'll have a look at the SDK, as this is something that would be relatively critiical for such a beast.

author: honestgold
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 03:12:56 am
content: I am looking at their VAR-SOM-MX8M-PLUS Evaluation Kits. Cannot find JTAG interface on their system. How do they debug on the M7 . I plan to run barebone no OS on the M7 for SPI interface. Normally Segger J-link is pretty popular.VAR-SOM-MX8M-PLUS Evaluation KitsKit PN:VAR-DVK-VS8M-PLUS_LOIncluded SOM:VAR-SOM-MX8M-PLUS with 1.8GHz CPU & Commercial temperature rangeSOM PN:VAR-SOM-MX8MPQ_1800C_4096R_16G_AC_EC_TP_WBD_CTOperating System:Linux

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 09:37:30 am
content: Does this help?https://www.variscite.com/services/training/webinar-debugging-i-mx8-cortex-m-coprocessor-firmware-on-variscite-system-on-modules/