Of grounds, electrical wiring and safety practices. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Computeruser
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2011, 11:01:12 pm
content: I have had five houses in three different states or provinces in two different countries in the space of 7 years. I am still in the fifth house. This has lead to interesting electrical code practices and indeed errors.The first house was wired with aluminum wiring. It was code at the time; I did not like it; and I moved out (for business reasons) after about 2 years. Now I did have to replace some outlets because the outlets were cheap (still code) and broke down with repeated use. Additionally, I noted that plugging in a toaster and a kettle would blow a fuse. This is not code. So I took out the fuse block for that circuit, went upstairs, stuffed my big screwdriver (plastic handle) across the hot screw and into the box. Big sparks and more fuses go. What was supposed to happen was 3 split outlets into 3 fuse blocks, but the electrician had cross-connected the wires. I have no idea how it passed inspection. Indeed, one wire came from upstairs down into the basement and was not connected. It was cross connected in a light box on the main floor. I had a licenced electrician make repairs and moved on (indeed out, later). But it was a specific lesson that led me to check all wiring in all houses ever after.We did not stay in the second house long before leaving our native country for the United States. It had two prong outlets (no grounds) but was fundamentally safe if one used safe practices. I did nothing in this house. It is about 60 years old at this point, and code was different at the time it was built.The third house was new and in Connecticut. Code then (30 years ago) was much the same as Code now. Basic 100 amp service, copper wiring, fuses, and grounded outlets everywhere. No issues, no changes.The forth house was also new and in New York. It was different in that wire from street to house was aluminum, and wire for the fixed range, heat pump, and electric furnace were also aluminum, but all other wiring was copper. All outlets were ground and I did not make any changes.The fifth house was (is) back in Canada and where we have lived for 30 years. A quick inspection showed (a) that everything worked properly and (b) the fuse box was a cheap box and fuse blocks would break up when pulled out (checking split outlet kitchen sockets). I quickly engaged a reputable contractor to discard the fuse box and install a Square D circuit breaker box. The wire from the street was code rated at 125 amps, so we put in a 125 amp service. I was informed that special wires with special (expensive insulation) could be installed in the existing conduit from the street to provide code rated 150 amp service, but we have never needed that.I learned during this work that the refigerator was on the same circuit as the basement lights (code at the time). Again, I found that I could purchase an (expensive) breaker with two 15 amp breakers in one slot. I long ago put the refrigerator on its own ciruit and that is indeed Code practice today. I had some wiring added when we renovated and added an independent Microwave ciruit at the time. I put two 15 amp circuits in my workshop and did some other changes. The bathroom outlets and the outside outlet in on a GFI ciruit which is a good idea, but I often wished there had been two.So I have learned enough from bad practice and errors to spend the time when purchasing a house to ensure that grounding, wiring and outlets are all completely safe. This is also North American practice and may not apply to you, but whatever applies means hobby work in my electronics workshop will be safe at all times. All five of these homes have 2 live wires coming in from outside and the third (neutral wire) is clamped to earth ground. I have always found this to be desirable..... C

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2011, 11:23:43 pm
content: Quote from: Computeruser on September 04, 2011, 11:01:12 pmThe assumption is that just because you follow code or take certain precautions it is completely safe is more dangerous than poor wiring with a vigilant attitude, in my opinion. No matter how much time and money you spend, nothing is ever completely safe.

author: hitachi8
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2011, 11:27:25 pm
content: reminds me of yesterday; i realize that some of my house wall-plug were not installed correctly (inverted polarity), and that some of the light socket were always live.be sure to always check your house circuit before touching anything, you never know.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2011, 11:31:20 pm
content: What alm says is true. Mains electricity is not safe, it is hazardous. It is always wise to respect that hazard.As for grounding or earthing arrangements you have to go along with the local distribution system. For example in some countries (like the UK) the system earth is usually provided by the electricity company and you are not supposed to make your own earth on the consumer side. It is, however, required that all metal pipework in the house is securely bonded to the system earth.

author: Computeruser
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2011, 11:34:47 pm
content: To both above - that is why I said I check ALL outlets and wiring upon purchase of a house. Once checked and randomly checked thereafter, it is a reasonable guess that wiring is safe. Children will plug in computers, hair dryers, clocks and whatever. It is ESSENTIAL that wiring be checked and be KNOWN safe. Beyond that, care, of course is required. But I was very clear on that in my post. My attitude is NOT dangerous and NOT vigilante.Please allow me to remind you of the Normal Distribution in Mathematics (Engineers should know this): Everything, distributed enough times, turns normal. So when you say "nothing is ever completely safe" - True, but also out in the tiny ends of probability.Do you grounds check your own outlets before you allow children or guests to plug anything in?... C

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2011, 04:13:50 am
content: There is just so much you can do to ensure electrical safety---but you should do all that you can so the probability of injury becomes extremely small,-------way smaller,in fact,than than the probability of an injury while driving,gardening,or almost any other pursuit!VK6ZGO

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2011, 04:23:58 am
content: One of the things people here have started doing is having a home inspector check a house out before they buy it. There's really too much to inspect for even a tradesman to have a good handle on, while the better home inspectors have very thorough checklists and protocols and will likely catch most issues.Luckily, it's rare to see situations that indicate building inspectors "on the take" here, but it does happen, so even relatively new homes should be looked over by an expert.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2011, 06:38:54 am
content: Dear Computeruser:--It seems to me that your comments were honest and well intended, as well as informative.--With regard to comments by alm:"The assumption is that just because you follow code or take certain precautions it is completely safe is more dangerous than poor wiring with a vigilant attitude, in my opinion. No matter how much time and money you spend, nothing is ever completely safe."--If the above is an example of good writing, I will get my NRA Lifetime Member hat and the mustard forthwith.--It seems to me that my thread (posted below) may have some relevance to your topic. Please view, and comment in either thread, if you are so moved.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4701.0"Three weeks in the lab will save you a day in the library every time" Stanley Williams, HP LabsBest RegardsClear Ether

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2011, 11:50:49 am
content: Electrical safety is one of my most argued topics.Incorrect installation is the biggest worry especially as mentioned above as reverse polarity which can be tested with a simple volt stick. (if the light switch is off but volt stick lights up you got a problem)To make it safe in Australia they want RCD's on all lights and power circuits with talk of putting them on stove's which would be a nightmare. RCD's aren't safe without a good local ground. Any appliance with an element has some earth leakage especially if they haven't been used for a while and would trip the rcd.Now in Aus retailers need to put a (no diy Install by Licensed Electricians only) Sign on any appliance or accessory that needs to be installed by electrician.

author: Computeruser
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2011, 12:20:58 pm
content: >>> but you should do all that you can so the probability of injury becomes extremely small,-Yes. And I do all I can to be safe. Thank you. ... C

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2011, 06:15:48 pm
content: The UK introduced a rule that means I can't do anything more than changing a fitting. Anything more requires a qualified electrician (i.e some who has paid the money for the piece of paper) to do.As I remarked to the electrician who wired up my new conservatory - I was qualified to design / test the instrument he was using, but I couldn't run the wire through the wall.Neil

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2011, 07:07:03 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on September 05, 2011, 06:15:48 pmHow can that rule be enforced, exactly? Say you do the work yourself (correctly) and at some later time you want to sell the house. On inspection the electrical work is either safe and compliant, or not. If the wiring is safe, how can the inspector tell when the work was done and whether it was done by a licensed electrician? Are they going to insist on record keeping and presenting various pieces of paper upon inspection?

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2011, 08:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 05, 2011, 07:07:03 pmHere in Italy any NEW electrical work or any REVISION to an existing wiring (including antenna, anti-thief and door-openers) requires:1) a design, including wiring diagrams, conductor and RCD sizing, instructions for installers and testers.This can be done by a certified professional ONLY2) the installation can be done only by a certified electrician.3) the final testing can be done only by a certified professional (for bigger systems) or by the same installer, who releases a Certification of Conformity.All documents must be kept by the owner (and usually are kept by the constructor, or you can have a copy from the Municipal archives) because they may be required when selling the house.If you don't have them, you must pay somebody to release a new Certification of Conformity, before being allowed to sell the house.If you sell an house built before the new regulations, idem: you must produce some papers, even if the buyer wants to rebuild everything.Similar requirements are for the heating system (usually gas powered) and for the air conditioning.The heating system must be checked annually by an authorized technician, who must clean the furnace and check the CO emissions and the furnace efficiency.Theoretically the Municipality may ask you a copy of the certificates.This is the theory. In practice there are regions where the don't apply this by simply ignoring the law.Where I live they ask for all the papers, but a friend of mine bough a new house in a condominium, with all the paperworks, and discovered that a whole room was connected to the facing apartment...best regards

author: AlsInd
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 08:40:33 am
content: wow... i am glad i am here! i have lived most of the past 30 years in North Idaho and have built several houses and remodeled several more. here in Idaho, we are allowed to do our own work provided it meets code and is inspected. every time i have purchased a home of any age, in any place i have lived, including most of western Europe in my younger days, i have found poor electrical work. i have never found a building that was free of mistakes except for the ones i fixed myself. in my experience here are some facts that would help deal with the general mediocrity of our world:1) there are too many lazy people around! inspectors who have their heads up their a$$es, electricians who will rip you off if they can, and builders who are dishonest as well as lazy.2) very few people will care for your well being as much as you do; when found, those who do care are usually labeled as control freaks because they care enough to try to help people remove their heads from certain dark places!3) in majority of cases, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. every now and then you will find a person who actually loves what they do and is decent enough to care about you; these wonderful people are promptly eliminated because they take too long to do their jobs and are not efficient!4) after trying hard to help people, we realize that people generally are not seeking help but just want to bitch at you. as soon as you try to help by giving solutions to the problems they face, you become a pushy, controlling, know-it-all.5) you can never actually teach anyone anything. God knows i tried for years at the U! at best you can show the road to your students and hope like hell that at least one of them finds success.6) always... and i mean always inspect the electrical system of your house yourself. mains power is dangerous if not respected so respect it! learn the code. learn where its weaknesses are. i have always over engineers my houses for safety. i surpass codes on all levels. remember that codes are minimum requirements. in my travels i have found codes that were inadequate in my view. i have seen too many electrically poor homes all over the world that i do not trust my life and my family's life to anyone else. i do not give a pair of dingo's kidneys if they are licensed electrician. i have known too many morons who were licensed. do not trust inspections either... they are crap. inspectors are absolutely worthless as a rule. they will catch the obvious things because they cannot help but notice but they are, as a rule, too lazy to do proper diagnostics to check everything. most of them do not even understand basic electricity... they just go through a checklist and that is it.see... now you got me ranting too :-)cheers :-)al...