"A British Audiophile" compares audio interconnects - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 04:29:00 am
content: Yes, I know. The whole audiophool thing has been done to death, but I still can't help but shake my head at these people who can trick themselves into hearing differences that don't exist.He compared cables and was apparently able to hear a difference in "where instruments were located", how "woolly" the bass sounded. He was also able to determine that some of the cables had more "presence" and could determine the "leading edge of the notes" better on some cables. I could go on. Apparently interconnect cables play the role of "filters" in an audio system.What's interesting is that there seems to be a distinct lack of negative comments or criticism calling out his bullshit... could he perhaps be deleting comments that aren't favourable?Secondly, surprise surprise, the most expensive cable (which he apparently paid £800 for) scored the highest in his tests and the cheapest performed "worst", but he claims that "he couldn't care less if the cheaper cables sound better" (of course, we all know the cheaper cables never come out on top in these kinds of biased and unscientific tests, so he's safe there. Money well spent!)

author: MazeFrame
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 11:55:04 am
content: In theory, a cable could be made to have higher resistance after a set point (skin effect).Would be nice if someone with access to a 20Hz to 20kHz LCR meter got his hands on one of these cables, just to see what the numbers say.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 11:59:24 am
content: These things always remind me of my father who was a "wine expert". Or that was until he didn't realise a bottle was thoroughly corked, drank half of it and got everyone else to taste how good it was. Then everyone knew he was talking bollocks to obtain intellectual status.In this scenario I would love to see coat speaker replaced with coat hangers wrapped in sticky tape which is what I had to use for my first HiFi set up. When I bought some proper cables I couldn't tell the difference at all.Perhaps I should start selling audio grade coat hangers 🤔

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 12:00:35 pm
content: Well, I picked up some of the braided PTFE cables, and am using them, suitably undone, as test leads, as they do have a reasonable amount of copper in them. Not too flexible, but fine for power supply use.Did use the Van Del Hul as interconnects, but they are no different to the others, except they are much better shielded than the original cheap came with cables, which came as about 5 strands of possibly wire for inner, and 3 strands of almost metal as braid, not even foil wrapped. Just had to resolder the dry joints on them, they rely on solder to provide mechanical support and contact for the inner core.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 12:13:18 pm
content: Same BS different day. They bias themselves towards the appearance and price. The best looking and most expensive will win. The tests need to be blind comparisons. I'd pick a roll of Radio Shack wire and build it up with pretty coverings and say it costs $12,000. It would win hands-down.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 12:48:36 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2021, 04:29:00 am... When he feels like it.We'll see how mine will do:QuoteQuote

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 01:01:18 pm
content: Me too -Quote

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 01:49:20 pm
content: QuoteA perfectly valid ,and correct claim as every cable will have a measurable inductance,capacitance and resistance value. These might combine to make a filter that only cuts the signal above 472Mhz by 0.000000000000000032dB with a 0.0000000005dB slope,but its still a filter.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 01:52:11 pm
content: Erm, the cables in the video are not speaker cables, they're phono interconnects.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 01:54:55 pm
content: I was looking briefly at some of his videos, not his words and he shows some stuff:Iota VX SA3 & PA3 reviewyoutube.com/watch?v=UTrYCGtSWY0Construct your own Audiophile Power Cable from £15 (no soldering)youtube.com/watch?v=gfVYfC6tmccShame he resorted to audiophoolery.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 02:00:09 pm
content: Classic cognitive dissonance. The higher the price, the better the sound.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 02:07:15 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 23, 2021, 02:00:09 pmIf I paid 800 GBP for a piece of cable I'd be going around saying that it sounds the best.Better that than admitting I'm an absolute idiot...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 02:28:34 pm
content: Lets see how long this takes to disappear.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 03:33:08 pm
content: Oh noes that's hate speechBTW, some audiophile cables are absolutely realI remember reading about an optical cable which was supposed to remove harmful interference and whatnot by galvanic isolation. It just so happened that their optoisolators proved to have terrible frequency response too, when somebody set out to investigate the thing closely.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 03:39:13 pm
content: Looking at his speakers sarcasm:I see he puts the fireplace in place of the television and the television above the fireplace.It's like the speakers surrounds the fireplace.I would find the flames of that fireplace rather distracting and notice it more than the television.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 04:21:27 pm
content: Sneaky bugger, replies to every positive comment giving the commenter their little dopamine hit, reinforcing the sycophancy and ignores or deletes the negatives/non praise comments.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 04:24:36 pm
content: You can fuck that up easily by replying to his positive comments. That wrecks the entire thread

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 05:04:19 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 23, 2021, 01:54:55 pmWhat a fucking clown. No fire insurance for him!You do NOT use SY cable in a BS1363 plug-top, because there is neither space nor provision for safely connecting the braid to earth, which effectively leaves it as a floating conductor, which is a big no-no.SY should only be used with IEC 60309 (commando) or similarly rated industrial type plugs and couplers.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 05:14:51 pm
content: QuoteRemember this is audiofoolary so the screen is only connected at one end to stop noise being transferred,the connection from braid to earth will be made on the other end of the cable

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 05:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 23, 2021, 03:39:13 pmBased on the size of the speakers their frequency response should start at about 35 Hz.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 06:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 23, 2021, 05:14:51 pmIt's certainly "foolary" to blindly repeat practices from one area (balanced circuits) to another (power), cargo-cult style, with no understanding of the reasoning behind either. Hum loops are a direct result of the lowest-impedance path to ground not being the shortest path. There is no "noise being transferred" by a power cable that can be fixed by doubling its effective ground path length!Quote from: MazeFrame on August 23, 2021, 11:55:04 amThe skin effect is one of those bits of jargon that audio-scammers throw around to mystify and confuse. It has no relevance to audio applications because it happens at microwave frequencies.QuoteDo "20Hz to 20kHz LCR meters" exist? A few minutes with the LC equations will show you that the size of components resonating at those frequencies are quite rare and unusual... Of course it's not the case if you add R. LCR meters generally measure at line frequency (50/60 Hz), twice line (100/120 Hz), 1kHz and maybe 10kHz. If you want to measure impedance through the audio band you need to use a bridge with external input from a signal generator.Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2021, 04:29:00 amThose are all differences that exist in sound reproduction, but not from cables. I guess it's comforting to believe that you can fix these problems by buying a cable, rather than doing something real like treating the room with acoustic material (which would ruin his perfect Edwardian decor).Quote from: madires on August 23, 2021, 05:27:27 pmThe sad thing about "debunking audiophools" is how much ignorance is on display by the debunkers. Acoustic suspension speakers do not need to be large.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 06:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: helius on August 23, 2021, 06:05:10 pmskin effect happens at all frequencies, the skin depth at 20kHz is about 0.45mm, at 50Hz about 9mmwhether it has any relevance is another matter

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 07:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: helius on August 23, 2021, 06:05:10 pmPlease check a few datasheets of similar sized acoustic suspension speakers.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 12:40:08 am
content: Got this reply in the alert box:QuoteLooks like it was edited to this:QuoteTranscript quotes:QuoteQuoteSo he offers consultancy services for things he can't explainand believesthat an adequate explanation doesn't exist and that's why I don't believe it.Youtube transcript:Code:0:06 hello everybody welcome to a british audiophile for those of you who don'tknow me already my name is Taran a little while ago i asked the companyhere in the uk called designer cable to send me out some pro audio interconnectsyou know the type that you find in studios all around the worldand the reason is that when i'm generally asked by people who aregetting into this hobby as to what interconnects or speaker cables theyshould go for i always recommend going for a decent pro audio cable00:32 so i've got three of those cables here as well as two of my audio file brandsand i want to answer two fundamental questions can i hear a differencebetween these interconnects and if i can is it worth paying the many multiplesmore for the audiophile brands i have to declare right from the beginning i don'thave a horse in this race i couldn't care less whether the cheaper pro audiocables sound better than the audiophile cables or vice versa in fact if anythingif the cheaper ones sound better i'll probably have a little bit of a smugsmile on my face at the end of this video01:05 so let's get started and have a look at what i have herefirst up is the Vandam Xke Star quad that retails for 45 pounds for a stereopair on the designer cable website for just over 50 pounds you can get thebelden 8402 and for a similar price you can get the Mo gaming Negflex 2534my Van Der Hull the first will set you back the best part of 200 pounds and ifyou're feeling flush for the best part of 800 pounds you can get the ChordCompany signature i did a video on cables when i started01:42 this channel over a year ago so i'm not going to go over that all again but Ithink it is important to summarize the key characteristics of the cable so youknow what to look out for and by far the most importantcharacteristic is dc resistance all three of these pro audio cables havevery low dc resistance below 100 ohms for a kilometer that's a kilometer not ameter and audiophile brands don't generally publish full specs which is shockingreally and just adds to this speculation of snake oilbut as far as my crude measurement device my multimeter could tell therewas no discernible resistance from the Cord company signature cable so it'sbelow obviously 0.1 of an ohm for a meter so it's likely to be in line withthese but there was quite a significant resistance on the Van Der Waal thataffect the dc resistance other than poor quality termination is the type ofconductor and the thickness of that conductor.02:43 Now i don't know the thickness of these conductors because they're notspecified but all three of these pro audio cables have a thickness between 25 gaugeand 20 gauge remember as the number goes down the thickness actually increasesand all three of these are also pure copper construction with the exception of theVan Damme that has a few silver plated strands in there.03:02 silver has a slightly better conductivity than copper the van de hul the first is quiteunusual because that's actually a carbon conductor and that might be the reason why theresistance is higher and the cord company signature has strands which areall silver plated if you're looking at copper cables there are differences inthe grade of copper that can be used now all of the cables here with theexception of the Van Der Hall the first which uses carbon are oxygen free copperthat's fairly ubiquitous it has an impurity level of about two to threehundred parts per million and the next grade of copper that youmight want to look out for is linear crystal oxygen free copper that's aprocess that was patented by hitachi in the 1970s and it involved annealingwhich is reheating the copper after it's extruded it drops the impurity leveldown to about 20 or 30 parts per million and the highest grade of copper is occono continuous cast copper and that has one continuous crystal boundarywhich basically means that there's no impurities at all now this is where objectivistswill be jumping up and down and claiming snake oil because there's nothing to suggestthat if you go beyond the oxygen-free copper that it makes anydifference certainly doesn't show up in the measured performance a decentinterconnect should have vanishingly low levels of capacitance and inductance ifyou have too much of it it will cause high frequency roll off all three ofthese pro audio cables have very low capacitance and inductance.04:33 I can't confirm it for the Vanderholt and the Chord because they don't publish theirspecs and you should think of capacitance inductance as forms of stored energywithin the cable that you don't want capacitance being stored energy withinthe electrical field and inductance being stored energy with the associatedmagnetic field you can't have one without the other there are three factors that affect theactual amount of capacitance and inductance you have within a cable theinsulator that wraps around the conductor is known as the dielectric itsjob is to separate out the charges and it affects the speed at which the signalpasses down the cable itself something known as the velocity of propagationwhich is expressed as a percentage of the speed of light the ideal dielectricwould be a vacuum which has a dielectric constant of one and a velocity of propagationof close to 100 air comes fairly close as well but neither of those are practical if you'relooking at cheap cables you tend to find pvc used as a dielectric that has adielectric constant of 5 and a velocity propagation of around 50 percent thethree pro audio cables here use the next grade that's commonly found which ispolyethylene pe and the Chord Signature uses the next grade up that's commonly foundwhich is ptfe also be referred to as teflon that has a dielectric constant of around 2and a velocity of propagation of around 70 there are aerated versions of that wherethey try and inject a little bit more air into the density of the ptfe andthey can get dielectric constants down to about 1.4 and a velocity of propagation ofaround 80 percent.06:12 I couldn't confirm what dielectric was used in the Van Der Waal again there's nothing tosuggest that these fancy dielectrics produce results that are audible when it comes to themeasured performance of a cable the geometry of the cable has an effect on the capacitanceand inductance of the cable as well that's how many conductors you have how they're spacedapart and how they're arranged the Van Damme and the Mogami both have a star quad configurationwhich is actually quite beneficial if you're using a balanced interconnect because of its noiserejection properties the Van De Hul is a coaxial cable design the belden and the Chord Signatureuse two conductor pairs the third thing that's worth mentioning here is whether the cables areshielded or not shielding is generally considered beneficial when it comes to interconnectsbecause it can reduce the amount of rf and emi external noise that's picked up by the cablealthough that can be debated to some extent in any case shielding also does add capacitance andthat shouldn't really be an issue over the cable lengths that we're talking about here all thecables here are shielded with the exception of the Van De Hul the first this is an earlier versionof the cable that was unshielded terminations at the end of your cables are also important youwant good quality connectors with enough contact pressure there isn't then your dc resistancegoes up also if they're soldered as are these pro audio cables you want that connection to be doneproperly as well otherwise that's an opportunity to induce noise all of these pro audio cables camealready terminated with switchcraft connectors which are good quality and audio grade solder but ifyou want to do it yourself you can save yourself about 20 pounds and buy the individual parts fromdesigner cable the van to hold the first and the Chord Company Signature are solderless terminationsbecause they believe why introduce another metal in the signal part if you don't have to for thoseobjectivists out there there was a blind test performed during this evaluation.08:14 I didn't do it myself for reasons I'll explain in a moment but i was able to get my wife to sit down for about anhour and a half and i played one track repeatedly Flamenco Sketches by Miles Davis it's one of her favorites i justbasically got her to listen to that track for 15-20 minutes and then I switched the cables sometimes I'd pretend toswitch the cables and I didn't actually switch them I made sure that I wasn't in eye shot and I just asked her totell me which cable she preferred and whether she noticed a change every time without fail she noticed a change andshe picked out the cable out the two that she preferred so take from that what you like. u08:53 Unfortunately I couldn't get her to do the same for me for two reasons she's very loving and very supportive.I can barely get her to pick up the right remote control for the tv leave alone here to switch cables at the backof my amplifier and the other reason was that I repeated these tests over two weeks again and again so that I couldhave some kind of reliability as to what was going on and there wasn't someone here that I could rely on to do thatif you're going to evaluate cable where the differences can be quite subtle I have some advice for you in fact it'sgenerally good advice if you're evaluating any hi-fi gear don't try and evaluate five cables like i did at the sametime i'm not doing this again it took forever just pick out two cables and also avoid the temptation to do quick a bswitching that's where you listen to a cable for three or four minutes and then switch over to the other our short-termauditory memory isn't reliable enough.09:46 It's a bit like buying houses the first time you go and visit you notice generalstuff the second time you go and visit you notice much more specific stuff and that's how it works when we're listeningas well first time you'll hear that track you'll hear the general stuff and even if you change nothing the second timeyou play the same track you'll hear more so listen for at least 15 20 minutes before you switch and pick demo materialthat you know well that is well recorded you don't want to learn what's on the track you need to know what's on thereand pick tracks that basically demo different aspects of the music so pick something for good bass extension or goodtop end extension or good male vocals or good female vocals you get the general picture repeat the test over a numberof days because there's a lot of factors that affect how we hear things including our mood how tired we are how muchbackground lighting there is how much background noise there is believe it or not how much electrical noise there iscoming through the mains as well can have an effect so you need to repeat over a number of days so you can get somereliable results just before I start looking at the evaluation results let's talk about the system that i use to formthe test itself most of which I happen to own myself but not all of it my Aurelik Aries Mini Streamer that's powered byan external mciu linear power supply that was then fed into the Denafruits Pontiff Stack that recently came infor a review and that in turn was fed into my exposure.11:14 21 pre and 18 super monoblocks that's still the most resolving amplifier that i've come across since I started reviewingon this channel they then fed my Prac Response 1SC speakers which are also very resolving supplemented by my Rel Strata 3subwoofer enough chit chat time to look at the results I evaluated the cables in 14 different categories the kind of stuffthat all efrs typically tend to consider certainly the kind of stuff that i tend to consider and I scored the cables in eachcategory from one to five one being abysmal five being excellent so the maximum score that any cable could get was 70.11:56 So let me share with you my results i've got them here on a notepad and I'll post something up on the screen so that you canactually have a look at what i'm looking at down here so let's get started let's start with sound stage the Van Dam had thenarrowest sound stage it was pretty much between the speakers the Vanda Hull and the Mogami extended it a little bit more leftand right and the cord and the belden were the only two cables that gave you a bit of soundstage depth all the cables hadreasonable imaging you could make out where the instruments were located but there was a touch of vagary except for the Mogamiwhich was a little bit more rock solid the Vanderhall, had the williest bass, the chord and the Belden fader quite a bit betterbut it's really the Magami in the Van Damme where you could follow phonetic bass rhythms bass speed sometimes comes at theexpense of base weight and that was the case here with the Megami and the Van Damme the chord and the Beldum have a bit more oomphbut it was the Vanderhull that hit the hardest in terms of base extension I couldn't tell the cables apart.12:54 So I gave them a three across the board a lot of audiophiles look for that warm rich sound which primarily comes from the lower midrange and that's what the Beldum and the Vanderhull have the Mogami and van dam sit on the leaner side with a cord somewhere in themiddle if you crave a little bit of excitement it's usually the upper mid range that's responsible between a thousand and five thousandhertz all the cables did well here but it's the chord the magami in the Van Damme that had a little bit more presence that area can alsobe responsible for a bright and harsh sound if gone unchecked and the mogami and Van Damme fell down a bit here they are a little bit brightsounding the ability to pick out leading edges of notes probably differentiated the cables more than anything else the Van Der hall felldown a little bit here the Belden less so the cord and the Van Damme did a very good job the leading edges of notes on the Mogami werecrystal clear the Van Damme had the thinner sound in the mid-range this is also referred to sometimes as the body and the release of a notethe megami fared a little bit better but not much and it was the Van Der Hall the Chord and the belgium that gave you the most tonal richnessmany audiophiles love to hear the decay of instruments the Van Der Hall and the belden suffer in this area they're full sounding cables butlack a little bit of clarity in this regard the van damme does a little bit better it's really the Megami and the Chord that give you a blackenough background for those decays to really shine through if you're looking for that airy quality on top.14:20 You'll be happy with the Megami and the Van Damme the Chord and the Beldum in comparison are a little bit more recessed it's the Vander Gullthat rolls things off the most there's no point having that high end extension if sibilance isn't well controlled otherwise that's quality canget quite annoying the most rolled off cables here have less to do so they fare fairly well but the Megami and the van damme do a reasonablejob if tonal accuracy matters to you it certainly matters to me because I listen to a lot of acoustic instruments vanderholt is the most warmsounding cable and colors the sound the most on that side of the spectrum that's why it gets a two the beldum's still warm but less so and the Chordis the most neutral sounding cable and that's why it gets a four the Megami in comparison is distinctly leaner but it's the Van Damme that colors thesound the most on the other side of the spectrum and that's why that gets a two for those of you who are interested in the results from my subjectivelistening tests the Van Damme came in last place in fourth place was the Van Der Hull with 42 points there was joint second place for the mogami andthe beldum even though they have very different sound characteristics and the chord signature came out on top with 50 points I didn't know what toexpect but there's some interesting results here these cables do not sound the same and for reasons I can't explain I don't think an adequate explanationexists when it comes to science I take a slightly philosophical approach our auditory system and the neurology of our brain have developed over eons.15:48 There might be all kinds of subtle windows and doors to our perception that we haven't uncovered yet that seems quite likely we know a lot about ourauditory system there's an awful lot that we don't know as well and i'm not alone industry insiders designers will regularly tell you they switch outcomponents and they measure the same but sound different there either is a massive conspiracy going on or they're all incompetent and then there's theelectron itself the fundamental particle that's responsible for all of this we think of it as a tiny subatomic particle with a negative charge becausethat's how it's generally observed apart from when it isn't when you get into the realm of quantum mechanics it's described as a wave because it exhibitsthe behavior of a wave something called wave particle duality which sits at the heart of quantum mechanics and if you think that's science voodoo wellthat's the reason why you're sitting here being able to observe me now a lot of our technology is based on our understanding of quantum mechanics so ifwe don't know the actual nature of electron itself I think it's a little bit arrogant to assume that we've got everything figured out my advice for thoseof you getting start in this hobby remains the same.16:57 Don't go and spend a whole load of money on audiophile cables when there's decent pro audio cables like this that exist you've got to think of cables likea filter on your system and spending more money doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to prefer the sound you might not like the filtering effect thatthat cable is having on your system for those of you who've got bright sounding systems that you want to tone down a little bit i'd go for something likethis belden 8402 and for those of you who have dull sounding systems that you want to liven up a bit well that's when you'd opt for something like thisMogami Negflex 2534 audiophiles out there that got highly resolving systems that are chasing the last bit of performance don't worry about what the naysayerssay by all means you should be investigating the audiophile cable brands.17:41 Well that's it from me for today all that remains for me to say is if you like this video please hit that like button please share it if you like whati'm doing with this channel and you haven't subscribed already please consider subscribing and don't forget to check me out on Patreon where I offer somePatreon only videos and some consultancy services but for today for now a british audio file signing off.Found this objective comment down the list and yes there don't seem to be many:Quote

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 12:54:40 am
content: The thing that bothers me, is that his ‘premium’ cables must be adding artefacts to the signal, because I’ve only ever used Belden and Canare cables when wiring up high-end studios.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 01:14:36 am
content: Quote from: helius on August 23, 2021, 06:05:10 pmMy HP 4145A does 100Hz to 10kHZ, and my HP 4275A will get you from 10kHz to 10MHz, so that is a good range to work with.I don't currently have anything that will go below 100Hz though. I just checked my Der-ee DE-5000 handheld LCR meter and it does 100Hz to 100kHz. Might be a little difficult to go below 100Hz.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 01:29:39 am
content: Quote from: helius on August 23, 2021, 06:05:10 pmNo, skin effect comes into play well below microwave frequencies, even being present at medium frequencies, but is effectively non-existant in the audio region!Quote

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 01:39:12 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2021, 04:29:00 amHe's the real deal! didn't you notice that he didn't let the lack of gold plating, and the home-made look of heat shrink on the most expensive cable cloud his perception of its noticeably better quality?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 01:42:27 am
content: Quote from: MazeFrame on August 23, 2021, 11:55:04 amWhen you do get real performance loss with an audio cable its usually a relatively high impedance output feeding a high capacitance cable, forming a low pass filter, and the treble rolls off heavily. Instrument cables, like electric guitar cables, are notorious for this, as you need a pretty long cable on most stages. Mic outputs are usually a much lower impedance, and long cables usually work well.

author: MazeFrame
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 07:49:26 am
content: Quote from: helius on August 23, 2021, 06:05:10 pmAFAIK, Skin Effect starts as soon as there is any frequency.For power transmission, it is definitely a consideration. Hence the construction of those cables (steel core for structure, aluminium conductors on the outside). Since those operate in one could call "bass"-range, there may be something worth experimenting on a Saturday afternoon here.Quote from: helius on August 23, 2021, 06:05:10 pmYes. Most of the bench top ones can do DC to kHz/MHz. GWInstek LCR-8210 for example (DC, 10Hz - 10MHz).And since planes have 400Hz board systems, it is quite an important consideration to keep losses down.Low frequency oscillators can be accidentally achieved by putting a capacitor in the wrong spot on an Op-Amp's feedback line, don't ask me how I know.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 11:23:03 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 23, 2021, 04:24:36 pmTrue, but I bet the replies would be deleted rapidly.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 04:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 23, 2021, 05:14:51 pmAn unused conductor should only be ever terminated at one end, otherwise it becomes a functional conductor. The termination should be at the supply end, not the load end.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 05:55:32 pm
content: Quoteyea we know that but these are audiofools,who make up their own were rules ,like advising reversing the polarity of the supply to improve the sound,but ignoring the regulations about single pole switching and protective devices,or claiming to have measured directionality in cables,strange how kimber never did reply to my request for further details.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 07:28:43 pm
content: Surprised my comment hasn't been deleted yet

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 07:48:57 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 24, 2021, 07:28:43 pmYou might be the only one who sees it. Check from incognito mode or logout from your account.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 08:09:09 pm
content: I had to add my point to the thread as well.Quote

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 08:47:08 pm
content: Spot on.There's another thread going on actually which is quite funny which I pointed out a similar conclusion on:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/recommend-me-the-thinnest-coaxial-cable-but-i-need-the-thickest-shield/msg3631855/... worth a read to look at the solutions

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 10:17:33 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 24, 2021, 01:42:27 amthat's why you use instrument cable for guitars and not microphone cable

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 10:20:50 pm
content: Quote from: MazeFrame on August 24, 2021, 07:49:26 amwhat audio signal cares if the resistance of a cable isn't get any less than that of a few mm^2 of copper?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 10:32:49 pm
content: OK, so here is some technical details and myth busting.Speaker cables: A typical speaker is 8 Ohm, complex, slightly inductive load. If you connect it with 5m of 18 AWG copper wire, that is about 320mOhm extra resistance. Your Amp has some extra output resistance (typically as low as possible). But the ratio of the speaker cable and speaker resistance is called "damping factor", and because you connect a reactive load with a mostly resistive conductor, it does change with frequency. Additionally, passive crossovers make everything more complicated.RCA / Interconnect cable: Depending on the source, the source impedance can be as high as 10KOhm (record player). If we place a moderate 5uH 100pF( which is not impossible for these cables ) on this output, it filters at the 10kHz already. 10Khz is audible, but (and this might be more important) it could sound different for a dual tone test note.I personally see the difference between a cheap and a good XLR cable. It provides different noise floor for my microphone, SPL meter in software shows it clearly. I also saw burn in effect in an amp, with my own eyes, because I had a DSO2024 connected to it, after building a circuit and powering it the first time.This guy is obviously a snake oil salesmen, but there is some non-trivial effects of cables (or coat hangers).

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 10:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 24, 2021, 10:17:33 pmYes, there likely is a bit more capacitance in a twisted pair, but that tends to be offset by the impedances (source and input) in such circuits by convention being much lower and the capacitance required to make a dent in the response being so much higher.A typical guitar pickup, OTOH, is pretty high output impedance, perhaps 15K, and ideally needs loading with 1MΩ of input impedance to not lose out. A balanced microphone typically is 100-200Ω output impedance, and will perform well into 3KΩ, which is typical microphone input impedance. Rule of thumb for audio is that Zin/3 > Zout will mostly do fine, impedance-wise, but more is better.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 12:15:02 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2021, 10:32:49 pmand that cable+output resistance is effectively in series with the DC resistance of the voicecoil so..the skin effect just means that as frequency increase bigger cable doesn't decrease the resistance, does it matter if you 10mm^2 cable only looks like at 1mm² cable at 20kHz ?Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2021, 10:32:49 pmthings that are easily measuredQuote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2021, 10:32:49 pmthe difference between cheap and good xlr cable noise floor is likely how the shielding is constructed

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 08:46:21 am
content: I wonder why no one ever solders their cables directly to the amp PCB and speaker/player PCBs - those plugs just add contact resistance which even your 100 EUR plug has. Not only is it way cheaper but technically superior (not that anybody would ever notice, but still...)

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 11:42:48 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 24, 2021, 07:48:57 pmI see your comment.It seems he does reply to pretty much replies to very comment but the subjective ones and he claims to be doing a "subjective listening" test but didn't see any removed yet.I got one reply that it wasn't about me believing it "not even a little" and another talking about a the "wife test" to my comment about their difficulty selecting the right remote control:QuoteSo according to that the wife maybe picking up what he expects her to do.I like how he says his wife couldn't find the correct remote control without his help and she sits down for an hour and a half to listen to the same track:Quoteand seems to me to be making out like the cables are beyond science itself:QuoteQuite a bit of this don't make much sense to me as I can't see it with my own eyes or feel it:QuoteBuzzwords: Tonal accuracy, subjective listening tests?, siblance, warm, rich, sound colour, philosophical, brain waves, ions, neurology, quantum mechanics, wave particle duality, fundamental particle, subatomic partical, negative charge, science voodoo ... over an audio cable.* Is he saying that the colour of the cable is going to have an effect on how it sounds or is he visualizing colours from the sound he perceiving from the said cable?** I don't see any demonstration other than him talking.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 11:50:31 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 25, 2021, 11:42:48 amI want to ask him, well if all these things are true about cables, what do they do in mission critical uses such as space communications, military, or aircraft? All that is vastly more critical than a person sitting on their ass listening to a vinyl record. Does NASA hire audiophiles to check out their headsets and cables?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 12:36:42 pm
content: So basically he's bonkers and talking rubbish?

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 02:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 24, 2021, 08:09:09 pmTsk tsk!!!!!You are hurting unsuspecting musicians beyond belief! You should use this.https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-rj-e-ethernet-cableAnd by the way this store is so awesome. They even offer a 96 hour burnin service, no less! Of course they warn you that audio cables are directional which is entirely logical, or would you live happily upside down, sucker?The comments section is awesome. And this particular cable seems to be especially hard to tame.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 02:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on August 25, 2021, 02:01:26 pmIt seems that adjusting the burn in time doesn't affect the cost.QuoteBuzzword bullshit: Extreme-purity, unprecedented clarity, dynamic contrast, strand interaction, cable distortion, high-purity, Perfect-Surface, grain boundaries, harshness, increasing clarity, directionality.Does that mean that the conductor is silver plated or pure silver?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 02:45:08 pm
content: Now that so many people have VNAs its possible to test audiophoolery cables much better.Why not?

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 02:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on August 25, 2021, 02:45:08 pmVNAs are useless for that. You need MNAs instead, but they haven't been invented yet.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 03:47:22 pm
content: I would suggest near 42Hz in real terms no withstanding having a fireplace between them

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 03:48:49 pm
content: "Now that so many people have VNAs its possible to test audiophoolery cables much better Why not?"Something mention every time I hear this crap

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 06:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on August 25, 2021, 03:47:22 pmFrom the viewing angle It's hard to guess the speaker's depth. If the depth is less than the width it could be 42 Hz. When it's a few cm more than the width then 38 Hz are possible. Quite disappointing for an audiophile setup.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 07:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 25, 2021, 06:49:12 pmAbsolutely, although I was thinking about the claimed freqency response as 'opposed' to the REAL in room response

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 07:54:48 pm
content: Just noticed this review:https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-rj-e-ethernet-cableQuote*Thathesettled down or got use to it.If he was using that as a network cable that sounds to me beyond stupid and Dave Jones did video on something similar about the product not beingsetupdesigned right if it is being influenced like that but I doubt it in this case.EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Cardyoutube.com/watch?v=AO-vbzLPwScYoiutube transcript:Quote

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 09:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 25, 2021, 07:54:48 pmIt is. People who believe in this have not understood data transmission. They might claim to understand, but they're so busy wanting to believe that their new expensive toy is good that they can't distinguish between fantasy and reality.Just to reiterate;All streaming in a consumer playback environment is via TCP/IPThe IP traffic is, today, exclusively TCP, more specifically HTTP. Because nothing else will function given the proliferation of middle boxes, NAT gateways, and other packet-destroying paraphernalia that make up the end-user "internet" today.Sometimes itmightbe SMB. Still TCP.In both cases, it is essentially a checksummed (multiple layers) file transfer. It is not a bitstream as would be found via AES3 or S/P DIF. (those both actually transfer samples, in AES3 32-bit ones, that are alternatingly left or right, and have extra data in the top 8 bits, given a 24-bit audio level value.)It being a file, it is always transfered with liberal buffering, implying that there is ample time for getting the samples out of the file and into the playback application.(How can we be certain there's buffering? Because doing it without buffers is impossible, and small buffers are much harder. I know, because in my application you can't buffer much at all when it's really live, and people who made the signal will hear it (stage monitors) after it's been shipped over your network! We even have to use RTP over UDP, and we do a bunch of magic with clocking things, using PTP et al.)In the case of ID3 tags,they are at the end of the filewhich means that if your player can show the title it has the entire file or can do random reads.So, the player, before playing, gets most of the file, in chunks (HLS) or disk blocks (SMB) or as a more traditional FTP-style transfer.The file has a header, in which there's a sample rate indicated.The local oscillator governing the D/A converter is responsible for putting samples out in the right rate, as read from the header. Not the network, not the NAS, not the web server handing the HLS stream out. They're just shipping bits, with buffering.That's all there is to it. The network is not responsible for the clocking of the playout, and any player who is influenced by network cables in any way is probably illegal to sell, because it does not meet EMI/RFI immunity standards.Edit: The above assumes flat uncompressed WAV or AIFF. If you have compression (MP3 / FLAC / OGG or Tidal (*barf*)) , you have a lot of maths being done in non-realtime priority in the player computer before there are samples that can be output paced via the local clock. More abstraction, more buffering, less chance of interference by the network.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 09:33:09 pm
content: Oh yes. My first encounter of this was 26 years ago. I spent a good chunk of 1995 trying to persuade a law student that his £70 SPDIF cable wasn't going to make his MD recorder any better than the £2 one. There are a whole bunch of things he just didn't know or understand including ATRAC. We got there in the end.He was an Amiga user as well

author: MazeFrame
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 10:03:36 am
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 25, 2021, 09:13:32 pmUDP and TCP are the common transport protocols (when going by OSI)TCP is used where time is kind off irrelevant but integrity is important (File transfers, etc.)UDP is used when time is more important than integrity (Streaming, online games, etc.)HTTP (and SMB or FTP, or any protocol aware of the concept of "file") is Application layer. Way different beast and has nothing to do with shuffling 1's and 0's about.All the compensation for jumbled packets happens in the displaying software on the receiving end, NOT in the transport! Else you would have to update your router (not modem, not switch) for every new file format.SPDIF (no matter if home or pro format) is VERY time sensitive. As such, minimal (if any) buffering. A "broken" packet or a flipped bit does not matter much (even if every 10th packet goes missing completely), after the DAC and its output filter are done with the bit-stream, it will be difficult to measure and impossible to hear.Additionally, even when the receiver had time to detect an error, there is no way to tell the sender to re-transmit.There is also never a full file transfer (there is not even the concept of file). Just some info, left/right select and then the actual audio payload. Else you would have to wait considerable time each time you change the song (say 8MB mp3 @ 15Mbit/s ~ 4 Seconds).

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 03:29:14 pm
content: Very sorry gents, I must aplogise in advance he is loosely British

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 06:16:27 pm
content: He should buy some carpet. That is more likely to improve the sound

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 06:38:25 pm
content: I was waiting on him to say the best listening is done with only socks on which improves the sub-phonic ergonomic sound scenario and boomy brilliance.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 09:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 25, 2021, 12:15:02 amThe speaker cable is in series with the inductane as well. And 20Khz skin effect is negligible, since you have multiple conductors in a cable, called stranded cable.Differences can be measured, never claimed otherwise. But you might be surprised, because human hearing has extremely large dynamic range. That's why ie. an oscilloscope is often a bad choice to measure audio circuits, not enough bits. A lot of other general purpose engineering tools are just not suited for it. A DSA would be good for it for example, or a Keithley 2015.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 09:40:39 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 26, 2021, 09:10:09 pmstranded wire doesn't help with skin effect because all the strands are shorted together. In litz wire each strand is individually isolated and carefully arranged

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 10:03:38 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 26, 2021, 09:40:39 pmOh really? You seem book smarts, but I'm just going to leave this here, maybe you learn something:https://www.belden.com/blogs/broadcast/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency/I let you guess, if an 18 AWG wire uses 95% or 90% or 85% of it's cross section.Or this entire discussion matters for the point I was making.*It doesn't, you are just heckling.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 10:19:40 pm
content: QuoteI think streaming from a HDHomerun is UDP/IP. I had a periodic corruption problem with my MythTV system which I assumed was the antenna because it's a pretty dodgy area for TV around here (the symptom is the picture breaking up a bit briefly). Evenutally I figured it had to be the HDHomerun so got a new one, and blow me if that didn't do exactly the same. What else could it be? There's only 1m of UTP to a gigabit switch then 1m of UTP to the DVR, and viewing pre-recorded video over that same link was fine. Changed the cables anyway, just to be sure, but still no fix.Turned out that the switch was suffering capacitor swelling, which caused the occasional packet to be corrupted. Normal video (for viewing) was unaffected since the packet would just get resent, but the HDHomerun uses UDP and doesn't have a resend ability, so the stream didn't get corrected.OK, not audio and a surprise to me, but it happens

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 10:41:37 pm
content: QuoteI thought I was prepared for the bullshit he was no doubt going to spout, but I actually found I couldn't watch much of that at all - it was so bad! However, I did watch enough to find out why cable risers are used, something that hadn't been explained before (to me - obviously any audiophile will know the words if not the meaning). So I learned something, even if it was bollox

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 10:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 26, 2021, 10:03:38 pmwhere does that link say anything about stranded wire? as far as skin effect is concerned stranded and solid wire is the same

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:25:40 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 26, 2021, 10:19:40 pmOnce you go to uni- or multicast video via RTP/UDP, all bets are off. TBH, that was not the set of assumptions we started out with ;-)What one needs to do, in that case, is to establish what kinds of traffic are present, and if they are in conflict with each other to a level that will impair performance. Then, one needs to determine what tools are available, and likely put a lot of money into an Ethernet switch (assuming this is on the LAN at home or so) that will allow some traffic management.Having a working PSU not subject to TEA Rule 9 is a good start, but you very soon run into things like classifying access lists, DSCP trust, queue depth and allocation on departing interfaces, CoS mapping, et c.Nice rabbit hole, that.Also, the single most damning thing that will bite you in traffic management is flows that originate in a high-bandwidth device and are supposed to go out towards a lower bandwidth link. Say you have the HDhomerun on Gig, and there's a receiver on the other end of a 100Mbit Ethernet line in the upstairs bedroom. Where the speed change when the line rate is $1/10$ will have an enormous impact. If there is not buffer space enough to convert bursts of 1000Mbit to a stream of 100Mbit, there's going to be drops, and that even if you're not using more than perhaps 20% of the rated bandwidth.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:27:07 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 26, 2021, 10:50:45 pm

author: MazeFrame
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:40:49 am
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 27, 2021, 07:25:40 amWhat? Not everyone is running a 40Gig network at home?

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 08:48:51 am
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on August 26, 2021, 03:29:14 pmI just want to quote him:"These tips will make your system sound twice as good."Is that extravagant British understatement? I mean, why not three times as good?

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 02:18:38 pm
content: Apparenty one Youtuber that responded to me, I think it was the first one saying that it is not what it was about:QuoteQuoteIt is about Tarun Sharma's "The British Audiophile" experiences of testing a bit like a story.Only some cables, some datasheets and opinionated testing.If I knew on that basis I wouldn't have watched it and bring up the opinions in question from when I thought from the title "Audiophile Vs Pro cables evaluated - Surprising results!" to assume to mean and expect cable tear downs and physical testing to show the differences.I would be annoyed though if I clicked on a title like that which I often do to find it being opinionated.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 03:53:07 pm
content: Quote from: MazeFrame on August 27, 2021, 07:40:49 amI limit myself to 10G. But my vmware host has 2 of them.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 03:57:01 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 26, 2021, 06:16:27 pmI suggested that and got a sensible response. Am impressed.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 06:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 27, 2021, 03:57:01 pmI just looked and couldn't see that, is it still there?I thought what I said was sensible about measuring the differences and/or show us a hearing test but according to some of the commenters none of these things seem to matter to them for story tellers talking about their experiences. With a title like that I'd generally get annoyed and think click bait when I don't find what I 'd expect.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 06:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 27, 2021, 06:16:59 pmYup, at least when I check from a non-logged-in browser.Quote from: YoutubeObviously his wife is running the hifi store from where you can buy the things he's reviewing

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 06:58:19 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 27, 2021, 06:36:22 pmIf the bots didn't hide it because of the word "bloody" maybe he hid it when he got all embarrassed.QuoteAccording to him she couldn't even pick up the right remote without his help:QuoteMaybe he is just trying to gain sympathy like below in his story tellingventurestechniques.QuoteIsn't Dave Jones, PhotonicInduction, BigClive, and many like them brave? They tackle quite a lot of things most of the time.Oh I forgot...He is story telling.This seems to talk some sense:Quote

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 08:41:40 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 27, 2021, 03:57:01 pmSounds like he needs to replace that component of his life

author: midix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 10:07:40 pm
content: I imagine he must have his head screwed in at the same exact position for every test, to avoid hearing "cable differences" that are actually being caused by minor position differences of his head relative to his speakers.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 11:49:32 pm
content: It’s simpler than that as that assumes immaculate perception. Some days you listen to a track and it sounds great. Some days it sounds like some rats fighting in a bin. On the same reproduction device that is.However stuff sounds pretty good after a bottle of wine. Even the wine tastes good after that much. And it’s only £5na go. Much cheaper to fix the perception than interconnects.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 02:33:37 am
content: AESTen years of A/B/X Testing"Experience from many years of double-blind listening tests of audio equipment is summarized. The results are generally consistent with threshold estimates from psychoacoustic literature, that is, listeners often fail to prove they can hear a difference after non-controlled listening suggested that there was one. However, the fantasy of audible differences continues despite the fact of audibility thresholds."I've found there is real science with loudspeaker cables and differences, affecting power amplifier sonics. Seen with a scope or spectrum analyzer.But it's going down a rabbit hole of electronics subtleties and prob. best discussed in another thread, psycho-electronics aside lol.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 11:23:42 am
content: He responded to me -Quote

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 06:44:00 am
content: Got this reply, pointing out that the title was mistated in some way at the same time calling us whiney babies and that we're demeaning? them and got to to call an waaambulance.QuoteIt looks me me like Tarun loves his audio cables and stuff as to why he replies to many of the commenters that identify with him.Maybe one day he'll get some testing gear in place for his blind tests to have something to back it up with and put an end to the opinionated snake oil mysteries.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 09:10:50 am
content: I bet he’s “sick of experts” tooHear that said a lot by morons.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 10:07:53 am
content: Quite a few morons cherry pick partial quotes out of context too.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 10:25:46 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 29, 2021, 06:44:00 amWell, yeah, the title is incorrect. They're not speaker cables. I pointed this out on the first page but everyone keeps banging on about speaker cables.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 10:35:42 am
content: Reading is a lost art.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 07:57:37 pm
content: Buyers of these cables can also "whine" too about "it not sounding right" and needs burning in and so on.I was told by someone about "upsetting the apple tree" for them.Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 29, 2021, 10:07:53 amI think I might be guilty of that one on a number of occasions as I frequently misinterpret things.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 11:08:28 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2021, 04:29:00 amIf you pay $800 for a cable you WILL hear the difference!

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 11:29:23 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 29, 2021, 11:08:28 pmyou either hear it or admit to yourself that you're an idiot, so ...

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 11:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 29, 2021, 11:08:28 pmHe says his wife noticed the differences:QuoteOne commenter mentioned that it could be about a wife test thing:Quote

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 12:07:37 am
content: Title fixed.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 06:39:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 29, 2021, 11:08:28 pmAnd if you don't then you will not.Sounds like some guys in here are missing out

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 06:47:42 am
content: I have to laugh, one of my mates is an audiophool. Nice guy, but I think he believed everything the sales guy told him. Has all the gold plated, woo woo cables etc... Claims he has a golden ear but was unable to hear that his record player turns a little too fast. I was listening to a song I had heard many. many times and told him it's slightly too fast. He didn't believe me.Anyway, what I'd love to know from people smarter than I am is this... He streams all his music to hisoverpricedpremium sound system via a Bluetooth DAC. Does Bluetooth recompress audio and result in degradation of the original source material?I mean it sounds perfectly fine. I have a Bowers and Wilkins audio system in my car which sounds phenomenal but I still stream to it using Bluetooth. I'd just be curious to know if there is any real perceivable difference in audio quality versus playing music directly from a phone via the audio output.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 06:58:04 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on August 29, 2021, 11:54:21 pmThere is a classic case demonstrating this, illustrating the absolute requirement for double-blind testing;"der Kluge Hans".

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 07:19:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 30, 2021, 06:47:42 amThat one is tricky. Few people are able to detect absolute frequencies.QuoteIt depends. There are lossy and lossless compression algorithms for Bluetooth audio.https://www.soundguys.com/understanding-bluetooth-codecs-15352/So, it's a bit complicated. Not only your equipment must support it, it must be also properly supported without some subtle software bug breaking codec selection.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 07:29:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 30, 2021, 06:47:42 amThere are two things that could be a problem with Bluetooth (or any digital transfer system);LatencyBit errors.The former is, generally, not a problem in unidirectional audio transfer, even if it's "live" -- we cope pretty well with the multiple second delay in terrestrial TV. (until the radio transmission of same sports event is 2 seconds earlier...) Basically we have no reference as to "when" and then we have to accept what's coming at us as "now", FSVO. For prerecorded media, it's of course mostly irrelevant.The latter is of course more complicated; it depends on EMI levels, distance (mostly as distance tends to introduce more line-of-sight challenges), physical barriers to radio waves et c.Actually, I lied.Thereisa third thing, and that it is that Bluetooth is vertically integrated. There are only those applications in the various OSI equivalent layers as the standards owner of Bluetooth saw fit to include. This means that there's a scant few audio codecs specified for Bluetooth audio, and given a decent RF link, it's mostly about comparing codecs and their performance. You don't get 2mbit/s AES3 bit-clean 24bit/48KHz, no matter how hard you try.If your BT link is APT-X compatiblein both ends(there's a negotiation, so you might end up lower), though, it's practically transparent. I've been on the fringes of some serious testing of this at a former employer, and the data supports APT-X at 576kbit/s as pretty wide open. The earlier SBC standard might not be as transparent. There are a few other newer standards that look to be promising, but IMNSHO the APT-X is your best bet.Also you need to think about the encode-decode chain in entirety. Since the BT link, as observed above, requires recoding, you have at minimum a storage format -> BT recode -> BT decode chain to factor in. If you listen to streaming radio, the best case probably is more like:Linear sound file or live transmission (both at 48KHz 24-bit) goes into processing for streaming and then to the live stream encoder, coming out as AAC 192kbit (highest encoding standard at previous employer), which is received by your phone, recoded to a Bluetooth transport format, sent over the BT link, and then unpacked and played back.If it's a "normal" show, it's more like a 384kbit MPEG2 file played back; the L24 storage option is reserved for classical music.Phew!The mere thought that the directional arrows on yourEthernet cablewould need to be correctly oriented in this is criminally insane.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 07:50:01 am
content: I wonder what audiophools would think about professional digital audio streaming over IP, for example Dante.It needs a properly configured network but it works like a charm. Now tell a live sound engineer to buy a 50 metre long"special Ethernet cable" for his digital snake from AudioquestBut of course audiophile grade routers do exist!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 09:35:33 am
content: When our audiophools upgrade to optical network cables they will need directional multimode fiber.

author: MazeFrame
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 11:01:53 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 30, 2021, 06:47:42 amDepends on the BT standard and Codec used.Some Codecs do not compress, they just use the available bit-rate and drop whatever would push past the limit.Wireless streaming is always lossy.Important distinction:Streaming - Information is NOT stored permanently on the receiving deviceTransfer - Information IS permanently stored on the receiving device

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 11:24:48 am
content: Quote from: borjam on August 30, 2021, 07:50:01 amHey Borja,I know you are clever, but when you call Dante "working like a charm" I'd like to question that a bit.Dante:Will not traverse a routerIs limited to 64 channelsWill only be routed by a stinking Windows app, also on the same LANIs using PTPv1Won't easily interoperate with AES67 or RavennaIs proprietaryAnd, I don't like it.But, seriously. In my application (2000+ sound sources spread over a 2000km long country), Dante is a joke, a toy. Their attempt at world domination would have been spent better in coöperation with other industry forces to build an even better AES67.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 03:20:55 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 29, 2021, 09:10:50 amEEVblog #29 - Audiophile AudiophooleryQuoteJoke: Then I guess the morons don't have half a brain.Maybe he'd be sick of this review:youtube.com/watch?v=KzwAdwvy9l4Audioquest Thunderbird Zero Speaker Cable Review: 72V DBS Legit Science or Snake Oil?QuotePretty much sums it up for that Audioquest snake oil cable.QuoteI suppose that may make them sick too when they realize.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 06:12:42 am
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 30, 2021, 11:24:48 amI guess you have more experience with Dante than me, so I won't argue much. Anyway what I meant (poorly phrasedis that it works without creating any of the "audiophoolic" problems audiophools imagineQuoteHmm. I think they wanted to play it safe. Running on a single broadcast domain they can do a lot of magical autoconfiguration withoutrelying on poorly supported multicast stuff.So, well, it's designed for a building or at most campus level application.Also I think they haven't done a bad job making sure that it can work with many "enterprise" Ethernet switches and with a reasonableconfiguration it can coexist on the same infrastructure.QuoteWhat I have used is Macos based. I haven't tried Dante Domain Controller but I understand it's available on Macos as well? No Linux, though.Or what do you mean with "routed"?From what I understood they avoid a central "router" node per se, relying instead on a Dante Controller application that is more like an orchestrator for the capabilites in each Dante interface. That's not a bad decision.QuoteI have used it just for mostly straightforward stuff, so no experience there. Anyway I insist, in the context of this thread the "works like a charm" means it doesn't create "audiophool" issue and I am sure audiophools that have attended live concerts in which Dante was used haven't noticed "imaginary digital issues".QuoteI must agree with this. It should be an open standard instead of a proprietary solution. As for liking, I think they did a goodjob for their intended usage (venue level networking, at most campus level).QuoteI think they played it safe taking into account the lack of networking experience in audio professionals and the awful chaos in some implementation aspects of common protocols.So yes, I saw it's not a "WAN" protocol but still I was surprised at how easy it is to set up as long as you have decent networking knowledge.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 07:11:31 am
content: boxed wine at radio shack?

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 01:03:29 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on August 31, 2021, 06:12:42 amI unfortunately have experienced Dante, yes. And like all pro and semi-pro system solutions, it is pragmatic w.r.t. 'phoolery. That much is true.Quote from: borjam on August 31, 2021, 06:12:42 am...until you have Ravenna and/or AES67 and/or SMPTE2059-clocked SMPTE2110 video. They all use PTPv2 which is an either-or protocol with PTPv1. If you support PTPv2 on your network, the Dante nodes will lose sync, because they can't create their clocking island. We ended up downgrading to a much worse switch for those nodes where Dante can't be turned off.Quote from: borjam on August 31, 2021, 06:12:42 amThat is correct. And it is the right decision to make. I meant that the Dante Domain Controller that actually lets you set the crosspoints (i.e. decide which multicast addresses nodes are going to subscribe to) is a Windows app.QuoteAll your points are valid. It's a fantastic 1:1 replacement for an analog multicore cable and a small matrix router. The problem is that's there no path upwards. You can't grow, and you can't control things beyond the peephole they give you.Also, you're completely correct that they wanted an easy sell for a complex problem. Problem is that this does not always work.. Biggest issue is the discovery of nodes and sources. Noone has solved this correctly in the "complete products" area; there's only skeletal implementations of properly designed node discovery systems, like the BBC efforts withNMOS IS-04But no, Audiophools they're not!

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 01:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 31, 2021, 01:03:29 pmOut of my "pay grade". I do live jazz and I can work with a 10 channel mixing desk, go figureQuote from: borjam on August 31, 2021, 06:12:42 amAh! I saw they offer it as a virtual machine appliance and I imagined it would carry some Linux system as the OS.QuoteSo, we basicly agree. Now, how about teaming up and creating 9th Circle fixing all the Dante problems using IPv6, eggs, bacon, blockchain, BGP, egs bacon, quantum cryptography, blockchain and and fuzzy logic and blockchain blockchain instead of discrete bits?I am sure audiophools would love the fuzzy thing and the blockchain would help them feel secure?

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 01:43:33 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on August 31, 2021, 01:26:36 pmThat's my hobby!http://vvv.besserwisser.org/Public/Bilder/Skafestplats/desk.jpegQuote from: borjam on August 31, 2021, 01:26:36 pmI'm actually content at applying science where there's a need. I run a lab-grade clock system for work, with dual GNSS mainframe clocks, a distribution system and a monitoring system (clock quality, et c.) that's something extra. That's what it takes to build good synchronisation for audio and video..

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 01:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 31, 2021, 01:03:29 pmI don't know anything about Dante, but there are two layers of QoS you can tweak to match your requirements and make things work. Ethernet and IP have each their own QoS functionality which can be combined. Additionally, professional switches and routers support several methods of queueing and queue configuration to map QoS classes to specific traffic handling while also supporting filters to classify specific traffic. If you need to build broadcast domain islands you can use VLANs.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 09:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 31, 2021, 01:51:26 pmAt times I dream of the blissful times before I knew about the intricacies of IP QOS and Ethernet COS. And queuing in switches.Anyway, it is moot, in the Dante vs Ravenna case. To get good enough quality of the PTPv2 clock (all nodes on the net synchronised within 1µs ) for the real stuff, you need PTP-aware switches; most implementations that are useful are acting as boundary clocks, where the switch becomes an intermediate master clock to its children.These are not cheap devices. Our most common one, for audio, is the Cisco Nexus 9348, which costs about 7000€, list, for 48 ports GE, 4 ports 10GE, and 2 ports 100GE.Now, the implementation (and this is common to all switches we've tried, not to bash Cisco) is such, that when you tell the switch to start doing PTPv2 magic, it also stops forwarding PTPv1. Yeah, it sucks. I blame IEEE. This means that if I want Dante and AES67/Ravenna on the same network infrastructure (and it's a very strong requirement that we follow Metcalfe's Law and don't build one net per application), I will have to use minimum 2 switches. The one for Dante can be PTP unaware, but since I then must make extra effort to put the clocking packets first in the interface queues on that switch, I can't take just any crapola switch; it needs queues and it needs means to fill them with the right packets. So, I now have 2 rack units occupied, 2 switches to manage, even if I only need a handful of ports.

author: Jr460
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 09:54:54 pm
content: Late to this thread.Let me say I use Dante in semi-pro way every weekend for years. I have friends that work large venues that have the whole place setup with Dante. Never had an issue with it ever, it just works.It doesn't require $7k switches. I use a pair of lower end Cisco 8 port switches. Read some of the doc, the switches does have to do PTP, what they do want suggest is a switch with low gitter. They gave a list of switches from Cisco to stay away from. I trunk two VLANs between the switches, one has Dante only on it the other has DMX/Artbet and other low bandwidth data.The switch does have to run or understand PTP, just be predictable in the forwarding of packets. What you do need to setup onto switch is QOS so that PTP gets priority. Plenty of docs, show the exact settings to use.I do question two things stated. Limited to 64 channels, NO.Needing some windows only app, NO. Most times nothing else is needed. If I want to pull a live recording, then the controller running on MacOs and also the Dante Virtual sound card driver, that looks like an ASIO driver to any recording app you happen to have. Controller allows me to map the streams to channels on the virtual sound card.Mixing and matching withe other new protocols..... No need.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 10:45:24 am
content: Quote from: mansaxel on August 31, 2021, 09:27:45 pmHave you tried switches supporting the configuration of the PTP version per port (e.g. OnTime networks)?

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 07:56:36 pm
content: Quote from: madires on September 01, 2021, 10:45:24 amNo, and having looked at the CM-1600-FC4 from OnTime (I'm assuming that "onetime" was misspelled based on googling for both strings) I see that it would help with protocol translation, but not with the carrying of media traffic, and then it's out. I'm currently running something like 250 ports Ethernet for audio media traffic locally, with some 200 more for remotes, and I need more, to give an impression of the scale we're operating at.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 08:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: Jr460 on August 31, 2021, 09:54:54 pmYou can do it without PTP support, that is the whole point. All you need to do is make sure you have enough bandwidth and some queuing in place. It is a splendid alternative to an analog snake, which is what people buy it for. It does not work as well for my scale of things, where I have, as stated, perhaps 2000 sources active over a 2000 kilometer long network.Quote from: Jr460 on August 31, 2021, 09:54:54 pmI'm happy to be corrected here.Quote from: Jr460 on August 31, 2021, 09:54:54 pmLucky you!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2021, 11:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: MazeFrame on August 30, 2021, 11:01:53 amNot for long:https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2021/09/01/qualcomm-adds-bluetooth-lossless-audio-technology-snapdragon-sound

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2021, 11:50:18 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on September 02, 2021, 11:08:47 pmAs long as the path from storage to D/A isn't bit-clean (just shuffling octets) there will be recoding from one lossless format into another, and several steps of it at that. Recoding is identified as one major cause of signal degradation in sound transfer systems. It can be reduced in impact by starting out with less reduced bitrates, but is still audible.