EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 12:25:04 am
content: The most amazing feature of the new Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope was surprising!Teardown time.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 10:46:27 pm
content: Nice video Dave.Yeah the metal handle was the first I´ve recognized after unpacking the scope.It´s 1:1 the same as on the Lecroy HDO6034A, very nice.The mains frequency syncboard got two names on it, siglent and teledyne lecroy..The building quality in general is very good - Will a testing video follow ?Then what the name changing of the rigol concerns:Lecroy got a HDO4000 series for years, maybe therefore they´ve changed it to DHO.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 09:19:37 am
content: Nice teardown.When I got it, I was also pleasantly surprised by how nice and solid it felt.And, yeah, the handle is nice touch.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 12:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on February 17, 2023, 10:46:27 pmYeah, well, not wanting to get sued may have something to do with it:https://trademarks.justia.com/856/77/hdo-85677228.htmlI am utterly perplexed how they could have missed that.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:10:11 pm
content: 2 points.Seperate AWG PCB has been previously used in early SDS1002X models as an option and later in all models when the range became X+This is a 500 MHz design not 350 MHz.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 05:15:46 pm
content: You guyslikedthe cast zinc/aluminium handle? I'd much rather have a glass-filled nylon one

author: LooseJunkHater
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 07:47:37 pm
content: Made a separate post about this product (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/siglent-sds2000x-hd-teardown-hackable-arbituary-waveform-generator/new/#new), but what's the likelihood of being able to source the arbitrary waveform generator PCB and hack it so the whole scope isn't needed to use it? Seems like it may only be controlled via USB 2.0 protocol or similar based on the 5 wire connection?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 08:03:51 pm
content: Quote from: LooseJunkHater on February 18, 2023, 07:47:37 pmSee here on P13 for its capabilities:https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_07_20/SDS2000X%20HD_Datasheet_EN01A.pdfIt's an optional device completely managed by the scope UI which controls its countdown from 30 free trial uses and any permanent licensing.Further the UI is quite complex with numerous input fields that can even be controlled with a mouse scrollwheel.Lastly, it's an inbuilt AWG and never are inbuilts renown for their drive capability.Instead my recommendation would be to buy a standalone AWG in the first place of which today there are plenty in the marketplace with better output drive and even cheaper than the €289 SDG810

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 08:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 18, 2023, 05:15:46 pmWhy ?This one folds away flush so very unlikely to ever get damaged.These scopes are 4kg so are portable which will invite getting carried about as they are a nice scope to use and are supplied with a nice wireless mouse.Now Dave has done his teardown he really needs to get on with using it.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 07:16:25 am
content: All the shielding appears to be aluminum too.No Siglent rust anymore, it seems they lost their signature feature.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 08:30:31 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 18, 2023, 08:12:38 pmBecause cast metals are more likely to have micro-fractures that aren't apparent (unless you x-ray or ultrasonically probe them, not likely for this application) but will gradually worsen over time until one day *ping*, *crunch*, your $5k scope is on the floor and now a parallelogram instead of a square.EDIT: Additionally, the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope, in the form ofvery smallfilings. Granted, this will be in miniscule quantities, but it's attention to detail that makes the difference between a good product and a great one.They've likely gone for die-cast zinc or ally over glass-filled nylon for the reduced maintenance cost on the injection moulding machines; glass-filled nylon is notoriously hard on such equipment.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 09:43:40 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 19, 2023, 08:30:31 amSo best advice would be not to even buy an engine that was built with cast metals ?Good luck even finding one that was milled from billet.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 05:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 19, 2023, 08:30:31 amI’m sorry, but are you genuinely unaware how unhinged that all sounds?Die-cast metal is used for countless products, almost always ones of above-average quality. From tripod castings, to KitchenAid mixers, to car engines, to all manner of electrical motor mounts, etc., to BBQs (like my Weber Q series, which is cast aluminum, with cast iron grills), to practically all high end camera bodies, field-use broadcast audio/video gear (stuff designed to take a spill and keep on working)… the list goes on and on!Besides, what makes you think injection-molded plastic can’t have fractures or other faults?In the end, regardless of the type of material chosen, the quality of the resulting product is determined by the quality of the raw materials, the care and skill with which it is processed, and the culture of quality control and improvement within the company.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 05:46:48 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 19, 2023, 09:43:40 amDo they even exist? I could see that being done for prototype parts during development, or maybe for one-off customs for racing or something, but not for mass production.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 05:50:18 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 18, 2023, 05:15:46 pmThose who like metal handles are probably in warm countries. Grabbing a metal handle in the freezing cold is no fun.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 06:25:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 19, 2023, 05:50:18 pmThis is a scope that is supposed to be used at room temperature..

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 08:11:08 pm
content: QuoteHow often do you move the scope in such manner ?It must be a permanent moving to create such scenario..

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 04:31:10 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on February 19, 2023, 08:11:08 pmSome people use instruments in mobile situations every day. They aren't all in nice comfy labs. That's when the cold metal handle can bite.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 05:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 20, 2023, 04:31:10 pmAgain, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..Nor extreme temperature range, nor mil grade rugged nor portable.And handle holders are outside the shield.. If there are going to be metal shavings, they are on the outside from electronics.For portable rugged use, Siglent has it's version of Scope meter, including isolated channels.. expanded temperature range, IP51, rubberized...

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 06:43:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 19, 2023, 05:44:49 pmBefore I rebut your points, one by one, I'll remind you that engineers think about how thingswill fail.Quote from: tooki on February 19, 2023, 05:44:49 pmPartly true, but completely irrelevant to the context. The highest quality ones will invariably be machined rather than cast, either from billet or forged blanks. In any case, heavy duty applications are pretty chunky, way more so than the weak point here, namely the handle pins. They will be exposed to shear forces when the scope is being carried; the examples you give are mostly exposed to impact (compression) forces, where the material is quite a bit stronger.Cast metals, zinc and aluminium in particular, have quite low elasticity. This means plastic deformation happens earlier, and on top of this they are much more brittle than nylon. Fractures in die-cast metals can to be quite hard to spot, as they tend to fail elastically initially, with the crack being almost invisible off load, and will fail catastrophically (in context this just means the part breaks into two or more pieces) as repeated elastic loadings cause work-hardening/further embrittlement. Flaws in this particular case will be impossible to spot; once the part is in service, the only way to see the relevant area of it is to disassemble the scope.Quote from: tooki on February 19, 2023, 05:44:49 pmOf course they can, did I claim otherwise? They are much more likely to fail plastically, however. In practice this means there will be increasingly noticeable deformation long before catastrophic failure.Quote from: tooki on February 19, 2023, 05:44:49 pmNaturally. I merely pointed out that the failure modes of glass-filled nylon make it a better choice in this instance (imo).

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 07:11:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 19, 2023, 05:50:18 pmPerhaps this could be a marketing point... "Metal handle to indicate whether ambient temperature has been reached."Quote from: 2N3055 on February 20, 2023, 05:31:12 pmIt would generate some each time you moved it. Granted, they would bevery small, but in an instrument this sensitive, it wouldn't take much to derange the readings. You can clearly see at 3:50 that there are holes where the tabs penetrate the shield, and in the shield. It is clearly not sealed from particles of this size.Additionally you can see that the pins don't rotate in the tab sockets at their strongest point; they have to pass through the plastic of the outer case first, meaning there's additional complexity to the load vector. It's not a simple shear as I first thought, but would be most likely crack at the top of the pin where it meets the handle body, and peel under tension. This could be greatly mitigated by having a stepped pin, with a greater diameter as it passes through the plastic case.NB: This isn't a likely failure from a perfect part, but from a casting that has an internal flaw that wouldn't be noticed under normal QC.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 09:21:45 pm
content: Those handles will be spin cast, which will pretty much guarantee they do not have porosity or fractures in them, and will be uniform as well. As they likely are reusing a mould and line they already have experience on, not too much issue with a metal handle, and it is going to be less likely to fail than a glass filled nylon, and die life will, despite running a lot hotter, be better as well, simply from the stress only coming once cooled, and no wear from an abrasive fluid flowing under pressure.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 12:00:32 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 20, 2023, 06:43:31 pmPart of engineering is knowing how to put risk into perspective. This is a couple of thousand $ scope, not a piece of life-support equipment or spacecraft part.Quote from: AVGresponding on February 20, 2023, 06:43:31 pmI'm sorry, but just... no. The examples I listed are ones where thebestproducts use die-cast parts. Every pro-level photo camera uses a die-cast frame. (The only pro cameras I know of that use milled billets are the RED cinema cameras, which are likely produced in a fraction of the volume of Canon, Nikon, and Sony cameras, all of which use die-cast bodies.)The best still photo camera tripods are from Manfrotto, Gitzo, etc., and they're all die-cast. The standard in video tripods is Vinten, and they're... die-cast.There's no better stand mixer than KitchenAid, and they are die-cast. (And so are the competitors.)Etc etc etc.So your claim that the best products are "invariably" (your word!) made of billet or forged blanks is, plain and simply, false.Edit: And just to be clear: I am not a machinist or metallurgist. I am, however, familiar with enough best-in-class products that ALL use die-cast bodies to know that your blanket statement cannot, and thus is not, true.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 08:10:13 am
content: It is a bit strange that so much of the discussion is about the handle. The construction with 2 identical parts is a nice design. However the combination of cast zinc and aluminum is not great. Ideally there would be a plastics bushing of some kind to reduce wear. Anyway it already is over-engeniered as is.On my first impression I was missing additional contracts to supprat an active probe - though usually mainly a point for higher BW.An active probe may still be a point for really low noise, if you can't use a passive 1:1 probe.There quite a lot of chips on the PCB - so it does not look like build to a price, more like reusing part of older designs to get a product out fast - which makes absolute sense.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 12:05:07 pm
content: Indeed, I bought this box because of the handle which I wanted to reuse to repair the door handle on my car. Later on this machine turned out to be a low noise scope. After repairing the car, I can confirm the scope works fine fine without the handle.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 12:23:22 pm
content: Quote from: temperance on February 21, 2023, 12:05:07 pmPrecious!!

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 05:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 21, 2023, 12:00:32 amPerhaps I should have said "strongest". In any case the context is inappropriate. High-end cameras may well have die-cast frames, or frames made out of lettuce; I have no direct experience, but I rather suspect the delicate internals will be far more likely to break under impact than the body. Andonce againI will point out thatthis material is much more resistant to impact than to tension or bending.As an industrial electrician, I've been in a few industrial environments, including industrial kitchens, where I've seen broken die-cast brackets on things like mixers. So, they aren't indestructible, by any means, even the big chunky ones on machines weighing a quarter of a ton and more.SeanB makes a more useful point, though I'd argue we have no information as to whether spin moulding or static injection moulding is used here. Perhaps tautech could find out, if anyone actually cares. I don't; I've made my opinion clear, and to be clearit is a personal preference and opinion. Feel free to disagree, but don't expect me to change my mind unless you provide a properly reasoned argument.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 08:07:25 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 21, 2023, 05:53:28 pmThe engineers that designed it do !Of course they might have used a GRP if their tests proved it be robust enough but obviously it wasn't.SDS2000X Plus while slightly larger is somewhat lighter and keeps the plastic handle.SDS2000X HD is a new case design....more compact and in being so was also a blank canvas to get the carry handle design and bracketing right for this heavier instrument.I remember needing to get a folding bail handle for a SDG for a school as a student thought they could just swing it shut but only succeeded in ripping the locking lugs off.The replacement cost just USD4....the cost of billing was more and as they had 70 Siglent units they got that for free.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 08:06:00 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 21, 2023, 05:53:28 pmNo, the context of a camera body is not “inappropriate”, it’s actually practically identical. What do you think the lens mount, tripod mount, flash hot shoe, and strap attachments are attached to? The body. They have to take significant tension and bending forces.I’m not saying that die-cast is always better, or that it cannot fail. Butyourblanket statements that the “best” or “strongest” products arealwaysmade with billet or forged metal is simply untrue, and easily disproven by the list of examples I provided.Quote from: AVGresponding on February 21, 2023, 05:53:28 pmProviding counterexamples to an absolute statementisa properly reasoned argument.Your personal beliefs, on the other hand, are not.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 01:52:02 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 20, 2023, 05:31:12 pmJust how is one of those simple scope meters supposed to substitute for the scopes we are talking about? Just because you don't need to do sophisticated measurement on the move, don't assume everyone else is the same. Many people HAVE to use lab equipment on the move, as there are no rugged versions available. There are all sorts of protective cases made for these people, but you usually need to pull out the instruments for actual use.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 03:36:45 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 22, 2023, 01:52:02 pmI really don't understand what are you trying to say...Again, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..If you want to abuse a piece of laboratory equipment by bringing into hostile environment it is your problem.It is outside design envelope of the product. That is what I'm saying.Saying engineers made a design mistake by not providing handle that can be comfortably used at -20°C is a completely irrelevant statement for a product that is not meant to be used at -20°C.For a product designed for such low temperatures, that would be hard fail, I completely agree.And new handheld from Siglent (and some others like R&S) are far from basic rudimentary Fluke scopemeter. My reference was to package factor not capabilities. SHS1000+ capabilities are in desktop scope class (same as R&S portable scopes). Including gorgeous screen..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 05:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 22, 2023, 03:36:45 pmNevertheless a product that will do the job is better than having no product at all. IMHO the example of a metal handle not being suitable for when it is cold, is a bit far fetched (you could put isolating tape / foam over the handle anyway) but the point in general is valid. I do agree with coppice that you won't be able to find rugged versions of test equipment that fullfill all testing needs. For example: My Yokogawa DL708 (an 8 channel, 12 bit DSO) came in a super sturdy flight case with quite a bit of sticker residue on it indicating it has travelled a lot. Along with the accesoires is a sensor to do vibration testing. So obviously the oscilloscope has been used for testing something in the field.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 10:08:13 pm
content: QuoteOperating temperature range is 0°C-50°C.Plus I want to see anyone who didn´t wear gloves in general at -20°C or -10, or 0C°.Otherwise wrap heating wire around the handle and connect a battery to it.A nice teardown video but the people discuss about the handle..QuoteCan confirm this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-x-model-siglent-handhelds-coming/msg4690073/#msg4690073

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 02:01:50 am
content: So sad to see all the bandwidth about this fantastic scope being used up by a lame discussion about the handle. I never noticed the handle and I have still not bothered to check if mine would be plastic or metal. I used the handle exactly once to get it out of the box and up on my desk! I strongly suspect I am in the majority of users here.Why not talk about how big an upgrade this scope is compared to the vanilla SDS2000X+ ? Yes I realize it is twice as expensive but it is actually also twice as nice. I love the touch screen and the new UI. It is quick and easy to use. There are new exciting math functions including FIR filters. There is a lot more to this thing than just 12 bit. Although the 12 bit thing is also very nice to work with.From what I can tell the SDS6000 series might have the same touch screen and UI but not the SDS5000.It was a lot of money for a hobby. But thanks to someone who might want to remain unnamed here, I was able to hack it and gain a 500 MHz 12 bit scope with a very nice look and feel. I think it was well worth it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 03:54:47 am
content: Quote from: baldurn on February 23, 2023, 02:01:50 amFYI, in order of release, SDS5000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS6000A and SDS2000X HD all have touch displays and use the same UI.Only SDS6000A has a 12" display while the others use 10".The main feature SDS2000X Plus does not share with its 3 brothers is the Fixed Memory and Fixed Sampling modes.Of interest is SDS5000X is the first in the Siglent DSO range to have used this new UI followed by SDS2000X Plus however a firmware upgrade added Fixed Mem and Sampling features to SDS5000X long after its release but as yet there has been no such feature upgrade to SDS2000X Plus.That if/when it comes will be a significant statement.Size comparisons from other threads:SDS2104X Pus, SDS5054X and SDS6204A on right.SDS6204A vs SDS2354X HDAnother with SDS2000X Plus vs SDS2000X HD

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 09:22:33 am
content: It appears that the glass display is new and only sds6000a also has glass?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 10:50:55 am
content: Quote from: baldurn on February 23, 2023, 09:22:33 amSDS2000X HD also.This image shows the new display format.

author: Ulrich.G
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 04:43:09 pm
content: Thanks for the video and showing all this technical details. Now I finally understood how the ADC interleaving is working. Its not interleaving between two physical separate ADCs, but between the two channels of one TI ADC12D1x00 ADC. So, when using all four (scope) channels, each channel has its own ADC channel, but with lower sample rate. Have to watch the SDS2000X-Plus teardown video again whether its similar with the 8bit ADCs there.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 07:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: Ulrich.G on February 23, 2023, 04:43:09 pmI can save you the trouble:Current Siglent 4ch DSO's with two exceptions* use dual ADC's, each with their own memory support.When just one channel is used on each ADC full sampling rate and memory depth is available.Exceptions:SDS6000A uses a 5 GSa/s ADC foreachchannel.SDS1104X-U uses just one 1 GSa/a ADC shared by all 4 channels.

author: veegee
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 06:10:30 am
content: If anyone can provide some more information on liberating the extra bandwidth, I would be very grateful.

author: CChin254
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 11:06:41 pm
content: By any chance can you post photos of the backside of the main PCB? I am unable to find the voltage reference on the front side.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 07:22:40 pm
content: @Dave:Had you made hi-res pics of the board ?