Font with special character sought  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 10:26:31 pm
content: Does anyone know a font containing the 'tripod' sign, as used in the UK to denote army property?

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 10:30:54 pm
content: Can you give me an example of the symbol you are talking about?I may be able to make you a custom font.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 10:39:10 pm
content: 1) It is not a "font."2) Show us what you and we may help you find that special character.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 10:43:00 pm
content: I suspect this:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_arrow

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 10:59:48 pm
content: from that page:"It is currently a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to reproduce the broad arrow without authority (in the same way as it is an offence to reproduce hallmarks). Section 4 of the Public Stores Act 1875 makes it illegal to use the "broad arrow" on any goods without permission."Going to need to hear more about what OP is up to.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 11:04:06 pm
content: Strangely apt:

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 11:08:47 pm
content: You have not defined the character zone of your "font." If it is 5x8, then something like this might do:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/font-with-special-character-sought/?action=dlattach;attach=448168;image

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 11:13:45 pm
content: Here it is: (attached)The prohibition applies to marking things, not to explanatory use in a document.@jpanhalt: What do you mean by 'it is not a font'? What I need is a trpresentation as a special character in a ttf font, NOT A GRAPHIC. Scaling with the text, insertion by 'Symbol' in Word.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 01:34:59 am
content: Just make it yourself.https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/'Slight learning curve' required, ha ha. (The sensation is much like running full tilt into a cliff face. True story.)https://apps.timwhitlock.info/unicode/inspectSearch finds nothing for broadarrow or broad arrow.https://unicode.org/I'm amazed there doesn't seem to be a Unicode assignment for this. Hundreds of stupid emojis (https://unicode.org/emoji/charts/full-emoji-list.html) and all Chinese characters, but nothing for a famous British symbol that's existed for centuries?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 02:04:18 am
content: I've had a quick look and the closest I can find are some arrows in Wingdings and Wingdings3

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 02:25:35 am
content: Does it have to be vertical? (Here)

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 04:27:09 am
content: You could just...you know.../|\ \|/

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 04:29:57 am
content: Unicode "Supplementary Mathematical Operators" block has code U+2A5A "logical and with middle stem", which looks exactly like that: ⩚. Perhaps you could use that?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2018, 05:26:30 am
content: Unicode Character 'CANADIAN SYLLABICS CARRIER WO' (U+15D1)https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/15d1/index.htmAlso learned that this mark (made with a hatchet on 24-inch mast-grade trees) was one of the origins of the American Revolution. The British came to rely on eastern white pine when they could no longer get Baltic timber for masts on their sailing ships. But they exploited their monopoly and paid a fraction of the open-market price which was just another of the growing list of abuses that led to the rebellion.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_arrow#In_the_American_colonies

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 03:03:01 pm
content: Quote from: Neomys Sapiens on June 04, 2018, 11:13:45 pmHi there 'Neomys Sapiens'. Have not seen a further response from you.....Regarding one of the Images you supplied, being....(baspecformwr-003.jpg)I can create this, as an inclusion within a standard Windows font if you like ??

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 08:53:36 pm
content: @GlennSpriggWell, that would be great. I suggest using 'Martin Vogel's Symbols' (Marvosym.ttf), as I know that this guy has no objections to that and small scale (semi)professional usage.I need it for the recording of markings and maybe for a publication and do not intend to commit a fraud against any organ of the UK.The question remains how I could thank you adequately for undertaking this task.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 11:52:34 am
content: @GlennSprigg, I'd be very interested to hear a step by step description of how you go about that. Which font editor do you use?I mentioned fontforge and cliffs. But this task seems like a nice simple test case. So I fetched Marvosym.ttf and the current portable app version of fontforge, set that up. Can open Marvosym in fontforge. Now here's running into that cliff face again. My god that's a complicated app. No need for anyone to explain to me that it's complicated because font file tech naturally is complicated, I know.But I do need to learn how to do this. And it's a useful way to procrastinate to avoid doing something else I'm supposed to be doing. So, manuals reading time. Don't hold your breath.20180610 Update. Ow, that cliff hurts! For anyone else interested in playing with fontforge, here's some links:https://github.com/fontforge/Entry point to Fontforge on Githttps://github.com/fontforge/fontforge.github.ioFontforge website repositoryhttps://portableapps.com/apps/utilities/fontforge-portableCurrent: Ver 2017-07-31 for WinInstalled in ... \Editors\Fontforge_2017http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/Getting startedhttp://designwithfontforge.com/en-US/Book on using fontforge. PDFhttp://fontforge.github.io/en-US/documentation/http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/documentation/interface/User interfacehttp://fontforge.github.io/en-US/tutorials/overview/OverviewIn the downloaded fontforge source code package:fontforge-master/doc/html/index.html Old doc by 'AP', maintained 2000-2009.--> User & Reference manualhttps://fontforge.github.io/overview.htmlSame as above. "part of old website"fontforge-master\doc\html/fontforge-tutorial.pdf Dated 2007, but a very useful tutorial.https://fontforge.github.io/autotrace.htmlAutotracing bitmaps in FontForge.Extract: FontForge does not have a native autotrace, but it will happily use theoutput of two freely available programs which do autotracing. These are:- Peter Selinger's potracehttp://potrace.sf.net/- Martin Weber's autotracehttp://sourceforge.net/projects/autotrace/

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 11:55:00 am
content: Quote from: Neomys Sapiens on June 08, 2018, 08:53:36 pmNo problems mate!... I've got your supplied Font now, (and your symbol specs page), and will sort it outover the next couple of days! I'm only 'online' here every 2 days or so, and I'm busy designing artwork formy 'missus' for her embroidery machine. I'm retired, and it's all just 'fun' now !If I can help someone else, then I've added some worth/value to my existence !!! (It's not a 'chore').TerraHertz:-You alsomentioned that.........."I'd be very interested to hear a step by step description of how you go about that. Which font editor do you use?"........... and .........."But I do need to learn how to do this. And it's a useful way to procrastinate to avoid doing something else......"Thank you for your interest too ! Excellent idea mate. I will mention various 'products' while I "do this deed", aswell as include a description of what I do/am doing, with screen-shots too. Maybe I'll put all this in another Topic??Yes, 'Font' work can be like sitting in the cockpit of a Jumbo-Jet, but it can be 'simplified'(P.S. I was going to 'procrastinate', but I decided to put it off !)Here's a 'quick' interim prelude.... Start with an existing (& royalty-free font of course! haha) Font, where 99% ofthe 'Formatting' work is done for you. Then find some 'obscure' symbols/characters that no one cares about, oreven know that are there!... Re-design them, using certain protocols/restraints, and then re-save them !!!Note down simplified access to such 'characters', like "Alt+176" for example. Bye for now... Glenn

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 01:09:54 pm
content: @Neomys SapiensIt's interesting that the symbol in that milspec document is drawn so inaccurately, by the dimensions stated.Below is a (photoshop) construction of the symbol, to the numerical specs. Overlaid on the one in the document.Made so I can do the font symbol accurately. Now I have a correct bitmap image, to import into the can of worms aka fontforge.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 02:00:20 pm
content: I suspect that they scanned the older documents without too much care.Now for the history of the symbol: I've come across a different version, but I'm striving right now to relocate the source. According to it, this symbol, denoting army property, was derived from the rifles stacked to pyramides of three when resting.

author: Andy Watson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 02:34:13 pm
content: Quote from: Neomys Sapiens on June 10, 2018, 02:00:20 pmThat symbol was used by the Birmingham Small Arms company. Although it might have been found on army property, I think it is just a coincidence that it resembles the broadarrow symbol.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 06:27:49 pm
content: Note thatNoto Sans Symbolfont contains the U+2A5A glyph, andNoto Sans Canadian Aboriginalfont contains the U+15D1 glyph. The usage guidelines arehere, and the license isSIL Open Font License version 1.1, which is a free, permissive license. (No cost, and you can use it anywhere you like, including commercial publications and such.) I do believe the Noto Serif fonts also have the glyphs, but I don't have them installed, so I cannot verify.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 06:02:59 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 10, 2018, 06:27:49 pmNoto Sans Symbols does not go up to 2A5A. Did you mean some other font?NotoSansSymbols2-Regular also doesn't have anything similar.Noto Sans Canadian Aboriginal 15D1 is not the correct glyph.What I'm up to: can easily create the correct glyph in fontforge, in the suggested font. But to get it to map to a specific code... arrgh. The character table is NOT a simple sequential indexed array. I get WHY it isn't, but there's something I very deeply don't understand yet. Probably multiple somethings.Also fontforge is a fine example of flakey patched-together idiosyncratic buggy badly documented open-source coding. You don't want to see my 'issues' list.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 08:55:03 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 11, 2018, 06:02:59 amThe older version fromUbuntu repositoriesdoes include it (inNotoSansSymbols-Regular.ttf). You can download that version (perfectly legally, it's the official upstream git repository)here.Quote from: TerraHertz on June 11, 2018, 06:02:59 amTheU+2A5Ais only slightly different toU+15D1, so you might not find a perfect match. There are also stylistic differences; the sans-serif fonts (like Noto Sans) do not have those small serifs at the lower inner ends of the "legs".Quote from: TerraHertz on June 11, 2018, 06:02:59 amIt is just crap code. It isn't stable even on Linux.I wonder ifBirdfontis any better? I haven't tried it myself.

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 09:16:03 am
content: maybe this is of help... i created a quick and dirty ttf font with just that glyph roughly following the image from wikipedia on the 'B' character. It' sometimes easier to do this rather than editing existing fontslooking around there seems to be many variations on the style

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 01:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: dexters_lab on June 11, 2018, 09:16:03 amPity that's not the glyph Neomys Sapiens wants. Seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/font-with-special-character-sought/msg1587283/#msg1587283- the 3 page spec doc he posted. The true name of the glyph is "pheon".Also, what tool are you using for font editing? (Nevermind: "Generated by Fontographer 4.1" in the binary.)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontographerhttps://old.fontlab.com/font-editor/fontographer/US$408.99 Ouch, out of my reach.I'd really like to hear comments on the quality and clarity of utils other than Fontforge, which is a can of disorganised worms. For a purpose I have (unrelated to Neomys' glyph needs), I'd actually pay money for a general font editor that works and has decent documentation.

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 01:28:02 pm
content: ahh sorry i thought we wanted the one from wikii can follow the design rules in that scan, it shouldn't be a problem to change it. It will have to be tomorrow now though as i'm off to work in a biti'm using a very very old windows app called Fontographer (Macromedia/Adobe), it's old and a bit clunky but it works fine for doing quick stuff like this... back in the day when i was working for a software company i modified a monotype font for a terminal emulation app and used it to make custom characters, alter hinting information and the like.

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 08:56:02 am
content: ok, i think it should be right now. The bars are parallel, L/10 and at 60degbitmap, TTF font and EPS versions in the attached zip

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 12:28:38 pm
content: In answer to my prior offering, to'Neomys Sapiens', I've made a temp Font for you !!Instead of incorporating it within the Font you supplied me, (tech reasons), I've created a new mostlyblank Font, with2 versionsof the 'BroadArrow'. One with sharp corners & one with rounded corners.These are accessed purely by pressing thelowercase'z' and 'x' keys.....https://nosilverspoons.000webhostapp.com/eevblog/BroadArrows-zx.zipI simply started with you original image file....Edited that to create individual bitmaps, and then used them for 'tracing' in 'Vector' software.I used that 'Vector' to import into the 'Font Glyph', as well as trying to 'trace' within 'FontForge'.The result looks like this, in 'Wordpad'......To 'TerraHertz' ..... (Re: your prior request to me), I am part way through creating a 'step by step'description, but it is being based on the following......I have/do use various software other than 'FontForge', like 'Studio-5 Font Studio', & 'High-Logic Font Creator'.(For various reasons of power & functionality). My older version of 'FontForge' (which I was'nt keen on), wasway out of date, so I installed the latest version. I MAINLY did this, as I would need to supply info regardingFree/OpenSource software only. This includes the in conjunction utilization of 'Adobe-Illustrator' for Vectorwork, for which one can now substitute with the Free 'Inkscape' software !! for Font integration.Hope you don't mind waiting another day or two.....

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 03:08:57 pm
content: P.S. ...... "Inkscape" (for 'Vector' creations) is now quite well advanced, and has a LOT of powerfultools under the selections of 'Extensions', and off of that... 'Typography'.... saving a LOT of work....However, it needs some detailed discussions/explanations, and then all is clear !!!!

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 08:32:41 pm
content: That's absolutely ok - except that I can't access it.I'm getting a 'SEC_ERROR_REVOKED_CERTIFICATE'What to do?Got it and thank you very much!

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2018, 12:45:44 pm
content: Neomys Sapiens ... Glad I could help.....I'm curious about your (prior) error about.... "SEC_ERROR_REVOKED_CERTIFICATE"...I used one of my temp servers for the data... Did you originally see the Images' at least ?

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2018, 01:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 11, 2018, 01:11:53 pmWould you still like the 'Step-By-Step' mate ?? It's covering all the basics, and all that needs considering. (At a simple level...)I was compiling a '.pdf' file with all the basics, for you?....

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2018, 01:25:27 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 14, 2018, 12:45:44 pmCan't be specific here, but it is a concurrency issue with multiple connections.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2018, 08:20:35 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 14, 2018, 01:16:03 pmThanks, but no rush. I'd still appreciate it if you could post it in this thread eventually when you're done, but since OP now has what he wants, my own fonts-adventure is no longer relevant to this thread.I'm currently reading up on the truetype font file structure specs. Since the objective for me is to understand how all this works. Enough to build an extensive custom font of special symbols, to be loaded by html/JS files that construct a fascia of a virtual keyboard (and other instrument fascias.)----------------goog: truetype font file format specificationhttp://www.truetype-typography.com/ttspec.htmTrueType font files are made up of a number of tables, some mandatory (such as the 'glyf' table containing glyph outlines), others optional (like the 'kern' table). TrueType was designed this way to make the format extensible. Microsoft has taken full advantage of this in defining tables for the TrueType Open and, with Adobe, the OpenType initiative.https://developer.apple.com/fonts/TrueType and AATSpecifications for the TrueType Font Format. Apple Advanced Typography (AAT) Font Feature Registry for advanced font rendering.Apple TrueType Reference Manualhttps://developer.apple.com/fonts/TrueType-Reference-Manual/Bah. One of those online, many pages html 'manuals'. Can't find a pdf of it.http://lefonds.pagesperso-orange.fr/old/html_e/typo_efr.htmltypographical resources (From 1998, but interesting historical info)... and lots more.----------------By the way, the fonts you created from the images in that document from Neomys Sapiens, do not conform with the actual content of those specification documents. The images are drawn 'too fat' and don't match the numerical dimensions shown on that same diagram. See the photoshop screencap I posted earlier, in which the light gray background is that doc drawing, and the black foreground is the precisely calculated correct glyph. Accurate to about one pixel in 1000 overall glyph box. Ha ha, that must be the first time I've used trig functions on a calculator in quite a while.The photoshop file:http://everist.org/pics/misc/Pheon_5.psd4.2 MB (photoshop 5.5)

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 01:36:20 pm
content: Ok TerraHertz ... I think I get the 'gist' of what you want to do....and yea I guess I 'cheated' a bit by assuming the 'Page' he supplied was to scale...Regarding all the tech specs you mentioned... of course there is MUCH more to be consideredin creating a Commercially acceptable 'Font' and all that goes on 'behind-the-scenes'I just tried to keep it as simple as I could, for what was asked.....Keep in mind though, 'cubic' 'glyphs' don't have to adhere to ALL the specs, like 'Wingdings' etc.And if you are working within HTML/JS, remember that the 'new' standard for 'Web' based Fontsis the new '.woff' standard. All modern packages can convert to this, from '.ttf' etc....To explain to others, (assuming you already know...), this means that 'Font' references can bemade to your Website server/page (.woff file) without being installed on one's 'System'.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2018, 02:27:58 am
content: You don't actually _have_ to use WOFF for loadable web fonts. It works with TTF/OTF as well.Seehttps://www.w3schools.com/css/css3_fonts.aspQuoteOne caution: I found in the browsers I tried, the @font-face css MUST be in the html header!The exact same code in a loaded css file is ignored.