Solar powered scams? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2016, 10:45:32 pm
content: I have been noticing more and more in the NY area, that people are getting falling for solar panel scams. Basically they get people to buy as many panels as they can afford, and then they install it on any side they can get easy access to, and market to the next house.NY is a place where the planet hates you. We have a different set of seasons, Spring (lasts a short while), Winter wave 1, Winter wave 2, and Winter's revenge, thus the area is not very good for solar panels anyway.On top of that, with many tall structures, and overgrown city trees, Even during good weather, it is difficult to get good uninterrupted sunlight.To make matters worse, a few companies have been going around, and tricking people into paying tens of thousands of dollars for solar panels, which they install in locations where they will get very little sunlight.For example, for house pictured below, the sun rises from behind the house (no panels there), and begins to set near the front. There are taller structures in that direction, thus later in the afternoon, the other structures cast a shadow over the home. only about half of the panels will get probably 2 hours of direct sunlightHas anyone else been noticing more and more companies springing up to sell solar panel installations to anyone and everyone who will pay?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2016, 11:27:37 pm
content: QuoteThis has been pointed out many times here: the whole renewable energy thing is a scam in that they are not economically feasible without tax payer subsidies.The example you pointed out is just one of many. The panels are subsidies by the governments, in terms of lower panel costs, property tax relief, favorable mortgage rates, production tax credits (for the installer / panel owner if the panels are leased), ......No one would invest in those things if it were not for the subsidies.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 04:00:24 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 05, 2016, 11:27:37 pmSolar PV is cost effective for many circumstances, it varies wildly worldwide.Quote from: dannyf on July 05, 2016, 11:27:37 pmHonest companies will help the customer make an informed choice, see the comments here:http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/how-much-energy-will-my-solar-cells-produce/Dishonest companies are happy to take your money for a questionable or non-existent return/result. Its not unique to the solar industry but may have been amplified through all the government grants/incentives, especially the "free" solar installs offered to the public in many countries.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 04:14:04 am
content: I was very happy with the 8 kW array on my last house. I bought energy for $0.15/kWh with no out-of-pocket cost. The lowest utility rate (and it applies to only a few kWh) is $0.18 and the highest (where we spend all our money) is $0.35. At 'settle-up', the annual settling, all we paid to the utility was the meter charge and saved $1200 for the year.Yes, there are subsidies for the company but since California is just about to shut down the last nuclear plant and no new gas plants have been built in the past decade or more, the subsidy will occur one way or another. Either our taxes pay the subsidy or the ratepayers pay for a couple of power plants.The entire interstate Highway System was subsidized back in the '50s. We really can't complain about the jobs it created and the roads that were built.Eventually, a lot of our energy will come from solar. In fact, solar is so popular in Hawaii, it takes 4 years to get approval from the utility to install panels. The utility is just barely staying solvent. Any more solar and they won't be around to provide the nighttime load.There is no reason for an end user to pay for panels. It is cheaper to sign up with one of the companies offering a Power Purchase Agreement. It sure worked for us~ We would have never spent $20k for that array.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 04:55:49 am
content: While some companies will lease panels, I feel it will still be a bad deal with the current setups. Basically, you agree to a monthly rate for the panels (they can be 15+ years in some cases for the contract), but due to them pushing them in bad locations, users may only see a small short term saving for a month or 2, and then spend the other 10 months losing money.With outright payment, even with the subsidies, the average out of pocket cost here is over $15,000. If the panels are installed in a really bad position, the system will never pay its self off within its service life.Overall to me, it seems like a new fad. all of a sudden this year when the weather started to warm up a little, these solar companies started marketing heavily to people.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 10:10:18 am
content: "Overall to me, it seems like a new fad"Worse than that: this thing is a reverse robinhood, taking from the poor to give to the rich. Utilities are required to buy a certain amount of capacity from those renewable sources at a premium. That incremental cost is passed onto the rate payers.So you end up with well off people who can afford those panels being subsidized by the average utility customers.But that's fair in the eyes of our fairness policy.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 10:57:32 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 05, 2016, 11:27:37 pmIt may surprise you to learn that all forms of energy generation (as far as I know) are subsidised in one way or another...https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imfAs Someone said; dishonest companies selling people things they don't need or won't get cost effective use out of is not something which is unique to the Solar PV business.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 11:26:10 am
content: The scam isn't paying money for solar and not getting power back.No the scam is in three parts:1) Poor engineering, panels blocked by trees/buildings, poor workmanship, unsafe wiring etc.2) Shitty components, cheap inverters, solar panels using non UV resistant glue to bind the cells to the glass, circuit breakers that catch fire.3) Claims on making X power/money from the solar array, or not getting a bill.Worst part is #2, google "landfill solar" to find out how bad this can be. At a basic level they install whatever is cheapest that week, pray it's another companies overstock, and not an importer going broke due to warranty returnsI've heard of installs that never actually worked, or that failed within weeks.Good solar companies don't need to go door to door to get customers, scumbags do.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 04:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on July 06, 2016, 10:57:32 amThese are not real subsidies but the 'negative externalizes' trick.Code:The vast sum is largely due to polluters not paying the costs imposed on governments by the burning of coal, oil and gas. These include the harm caused to local populations by air pollution as well as to people across the globe affected by the floods, droughts and storms being driven by climate changeNote for example how those people don't count the benefits of coal power such as saving millions of lives by eliminating indoor pollution:http://www.who.int/indoorair/en/Abundance of cheap reliable energy saves and improves human lives in many ways.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 09:55:19 pm
content: I live 5 months a year at my summer home in upstate NY.. It is totally off grid with PV solar providing refrigeration, hot water, lighting and entertainment. It only cost me about $1,700 to install. Easily paid for itself with the savings of the basic monthly minimum service charge I would have to pay the utility if grid connected. In this community at least 30% of homes have solar panels. It is one of the most affluent communities in NY.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 11:04:26 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on July 06, 2016, 04:22:41 pmOr without going to accounting for externalities you can see that conventional (including fossil) energy and generation gets substantial subsidies:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidiesLess per kWh than renewables in that example, but still substantial subsidies. I know the Australian situation better where the subsidies are much harder to uncover as they're spread across so many different areas and levels of government.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 11:55:10 pm
content: It's important to keep in mind that fossil fuel and nuclear energy subsidies have been going on for decades and their cumulative subsidies per kWh are massive.Nevertheless, the truth is that with PV prices now so low, grid tied PV systems are cost competitive with fossil fuel and nuclear power generation in many markets even without current direct PV power subsidies.But, because production of PV panels and copper wire and inverters is not possible without fossil fuels (mining and transport of raw materials), it is true that PV is dependent on government subsidies - that is the government subsidies that keep the diesel fuel flowing.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:02:44 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 06, 2016, 10:10:18 amI guess it all depends on where you live. Around here, we aren't allowed to 'generate a profit'. Here's how it works: Let's say my 8 kW array generates some excess kWh over the year. Well, I get to 'sell' that to PG&E for about $0.04/kWh. But I paid $0.15/kWh to buy it! Not much incentive for oversizing arrays... This accounting happens at the annual 'true up' event. So, the fact that I over-generate from time-to-time doesn't matter. What matters is the net at 'true up'. Some summer months I actually over-generate if the temperatures are cool and, of course, I may under-generate during the cloudy winter months.We have tiered rates starting with some low number of kWh at $0.18 (basically subsidized for the economically challenged) up to about $0.35 where most of the kWh is sold. It makes all the sense in the world to generate enough to avoid the higher tiers but it gets arguable about the bottom tier. It used to be $0.16 so it was a toss up. Now it might make a little sense to worry about the $0.03 difference.Again, I paid nothing for the installation, I pay nothing for upkeep and maintenance, all I do is pay $0.15 per kWh for what they actually generate. If the do a poor job of installing, their panels will generate less, I will buy less and they earn less. But I also save less...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 09:00:55 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on July 06, 2016, 04:00:24 amSometimes it's more convenient too.At my parent's house, there's a shed at the end of the garden. It would be a pain to run a mains electricity cable up there so I just installed a couple of solar panels and lead acid batteries to power the lighting. It works quite well and was certainly cheaper than running a cable.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 09:31:53 pm
content: "Solar PV is cost effective for many circumstances"Then one more reason to get rid of subsidies for it.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 10:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 07, 2016, 09:31:53 pmYes, I'm installing solar without any subsidies, tax breaks, or other external incentives. It makes a good return on its own. Subsidies are not universal. But we would like to also see all subsidies removed from competing sources of energy to level the playing field and let the free market determine the optimal choices.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2016, 05:28:49 pm
content: Wow that seems like a bad install, especially with those trees.I've taken a quick look at my roof, only place I could put some is on one section of my south facing roof. Might have room for 1-2kw. I'd like to look into it at some point but there's no way I could go off grid on solar alone because of where I am. The days are very short for most of the year. Would work great in the summer months though.One thing I've pondered is if you could use a wood stove to fire up a steam turbine. Would probably be the most feasible renewable way to make power in the winter, and you need the heat anyway. Just don't know much about machining to be able to build something like that.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2016, 05:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 08, 2016, 05:28:49 pmWood stove to heat home and water is relatively easy. For wood powered electricity, it's better to build a wood gasifier. Complete DIY from scratch can be done, but you can also buyComplete DIY Kitsor fully assembled one.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2016, 06:15:58 pm
content: QuoteMaking a turbine and running a turbine can be quite difficult, and likely inefficient and requires a lot of expertise / safety knowledge. Most new power plants are supercritical and co-gen now so it is likely far better to centralize power generation.As for heating, I burn through two cords of firewood a year with one high-efficiency stove, mostly as part-time, "decorative" heating. If I were to use it as my primary source of heating, I can easily see ten times of that amount, at $2500 total, vs. my heating bill of $800 - 1000 / months x 4 months plus $300 / months for hot water - I use electric heaters in the house.Twenty cords of firewood would likely translate into 5 fully grown trees, which I can harvest a year on my property alone, at $800 / tree.The point is there isn't much to be saved from wood-based heating.I do have friends who use wood pellets for heating, in automatic pellet stoves and it can generate some really impressive heat. not great to look at, however.