Gossen Metrawatt Metrahit 2+     vs.    Fluke 177 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 10:45:52 pm
content: Looking at the Gossen Metrawatt Metrahit 2+ versus Fluke 177 and am not sure which one to go with, my old analog Micronta suffered a battery leak. So that's how long it's been since I thought about a multimeter and want to get one that will last as longand serve as well. But with so many choices I decided to ask here for any wisdom and/or experience with either of these.I think they aree good enough choices but if I'm really wrong let me know that too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 10:51:42 pm
content: Both are excellent meters, but both are also not an electronics oriented meter, offering no uA range.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 06:03:29 am
content: That's a great answer, thanks. I do want to be a little future proof so I have to decide on something that will do uA. I see Fluke 87 (original, not the V) for reasonable prices that do have uA range. I will do some research on that one. I did see display fixit kits for the Fluke 87 on ebay so that makes me wonder if there's an inherent design flaw in the displays. I saw too the GSM issue.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 06:09:46 am
content: Quote from: GiskardReventlov on January 15, 2014, 06:03:29 amRegarding the display, see modemhead's blog entryhttp://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8x-faded-lcd/Regarding the GSM, I *think* it only affects the V. Someone did a video on youtube testing a lot of Fluke meters and GSM. You can watch yourself. (Turn down the volume if you dislike latin? music ).

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 06:11:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2014, 10:51:42 pmseems someone is missing a sales opportunity here

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 07:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on January 15, 2014, 06:09:46 amVideo says:Fluke 83 PassFluke 87 PassFluke 87 III PassFluke 83 IV PassFluke 83V FailFluke 87V FailFluke 87V EX FailThere was an 87V for sale and a potential buyer asked for the serial no. but many of the 87V I saw for sale don't mention the issue and don't provide serial no.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 07:51:56 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on January 15, 2014, 06:11:35 amDo you mean eevblog should see me as a sales opportunity? If so what's the pitch you're alluding to?If not, my mistake.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 08:46:32 pm
content: Quote from: GiskardReventlov on January 15, 2014, 07:51:56 pmDave offers a micro current device for sale (called theµCurrent).It would add micro current capabilities to a meter that doesn't have a uA range, or one that uses a low burden voltage if it does (Dave's uCurrent page has a link that will explain why burden voltage can be an issue).

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 07:13:27 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on January 15, 2014, 08:46:32 pmI understand now. I am in the keep-it-simple-mode right now. But that's good to know about.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 07:43:36 pm
content: I found that there are Gossen DMM15 and DMM16 but don't see them for sale in N. America.I did come across an interesting feature on one of the many meter reviews I've looked at. This meter (can't recall which) had a lighted ring around each probe hole and lit the probe holes to match the range switch. Seems like a good idea not quite as definitive as hole-block feature on Gossen meters but better than nothing. Probably additional drain on the battery but always trade offs.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 08:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: GiskardReventlov on January 16, 2014, 07:43:36 pmthe cheap mastech meters sold through harbor freight?the lights go on when there are no probes inserted. if the probes are inserted correctly, the lights go out. if they are inserted incorrectly, the correct one flashes and beeps until remedied.i got one for shits and giggles a while baack. its not bad for a $40 meter, but do not fool yourself into comparing it with a gossen.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2014, 01:58:00 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on January 16, 2014, 08:54:30 pmNo idea what the meter was, was not interested so it was forgettable. The probe hole feature is a good idea. Gossen's is more foolproof and offers more safety. It's comparable since I've not seen any similar features in any other meter.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2014, 06:31:49 am
content: Quote from: GiskardReventlov on January 18, 2014, 01:58:00 amIf you are talking about the shutter locks, a number of manufacturers, past and present, have them. For example, Hioki in their latest marketing brochure displays this feature (page 6 - called Hazard Prevention).http://www.hioki.com/file.php?t=catalog&iid=1_678Yokogawa who made multimeters for HP in the past had this in the HP 974A (now discontinued).http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5967-6368EN.pdfSome low end knockoffs (YH112 - around $40 USD on ebay) have it as well.http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/580140163/All-New-4000-Counts-SMT-injection-font-b-Innovative-b-font-font-b-Digital-b-font.jpg

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2014, 07:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on January 18, 2014, 06:31:49 amHioki looks well made, they call them "terminal shutters". The only problem I see with terminal shutters is that it adds moving parts to the meter. I've not seen a review of the mechanism for terminal shutters on the Gossens. But I wonder what happens if they break or jam.I would guess Fluke never implemented that feature due to increase in costs and lowered reliability. But the lighted terminal seems like a good idea and would be cheaper and more reliable than a moving part at the expense of battery life.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2014, 03:36:17 am
content: I decided to buy a BK 2709b and then keep my eye out for a meter in the $200-300 range later. One thing I like about the BK, that Dave didn't like in the shootout, is that the battery compartment is isolated and the battery uses the typical 2-wire 9-volt connector. My previous meter died due to a battery leak so I guess I'm thinking about this more. But really who wants a crap battery to destroy a high dollar electronic. Good batteries help but sometimes they fail too. The BK through-hole is at the bottom of the battery tray but still it's better than some that have the battery contacts connected directly to the PCB, like the UNI-T and Ideal. If these leak it's very probable that the PCB will get contaminated. I loved the part in #99 part 2 where he's wrestling with the boot on the Ideal to get to the battery compartment. Was there some extra acting in there ala futbol players trying to draw a foul? Good stuff, thanks for the tips and the videos! It saved me from buying a "heap O' shit".

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2014, 03:40:12 am
content: For what it's worth it seems the price just jumped up on the BK2709b by $10-15. I looked last week at they were in the low $80 now they're in the low $90's and above. Are DMMs a commodity now? I got that feeling when I read some posts around here! I think it's still a good buy at $95 so no regrets.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2014, 05:29:56 am
content: The BK is fine, but it has no analogue bar graph. Not a train smash, but at that price point, it should have been included.The Gossen 16S is discontinued, unfortunately. Once in a while, it appears on eBay in Germany, priced at about 100 USD. It only has a count of 3100, but a good DC volt accuracy at 0.1% of reading plus 1 count and a resolution of 10uV. It has a uA scale, is true RMS and can do AC or AC+DC measurements, up to 20kHz.For comparison, the BK specs are 0.5%+2 digits, with a max resolution of 100uV and a maximum TRMS frequency of 500Hz!

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2014, 10:03:55 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on January 21, 2014, 05:29:56 amI'm still keeping my eye out for a more capable model in the future. This is going to be a BIG improvement on my old meter. When/wher does the analog bar graph become useful? I noticed it as a feature but I didn't research it. Dave never got into much detail in the shootouts about it only mentioning it vaguely.No Gossen or BK but interesting:http://www.johannes-bauer.com/electronics/mmcomparison/app/index.htmlMaybe he can add Gossen and BK, I will ask.(Edit: Found a description and it seems that I can add the data myself and run it locally.http://www.johannes-bauer.com/electronics/mmcomparison/?menuid=2)(on same site I sawhttp://www.johannes-bauer.com/electronics/conttest/?menuid=2funny but amazing how bad continuity responses are for those meters)

author: Lunasix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2014, 10:49:11 pm
content: Yesterday, I made comparison between Gossen 28S (300,000 counts) and Metrix MX53C (50,000 counts). On power up of a power supply, the 2 give the right value (with no bounce), but the Gossen is much faster while the Metrix is thinking, and then displays the result. The Gossen as no bargraph, and the Metrix (recent buy for a not recent model) as one. I think it's good if you have a bargraph, but it's not the most important thing in most cases.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2014, 04:37:49 am
content: METRA HIT 28S and 29S multimeters are high performanceprecision instruments for laboratory use, as well as for service andtraining. With a display range of 300,000 digits, as well asoutstanding accuracy and long-term stability, they fulfill allrequirements for use in calibration and R&D laboratories. Theinstruments can be utilized on-site for precision maintenanceand calibration tasks thanks to battery operation.These are specialized meters to measure steady states accurately, mostly for calibration tasks.General purpose meters should have a bar graph to observe fast changing parameters, which are too fast to make sense of on a digital display.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2014, 05:37:29 am
content: Quote from: GiskardReventlov on January 21, 2014, 10:03:55 pmA bar graph is useful when you've got a measurement that is changing quickly. A bar graph may update 40 times per second. That's about as fast as your eyes can reasonably see, and it's probably 10 times as fast as the digital display can update (your eye can't read a 4 digit display much faster than 1 time per second, anyway). The bar graph is low resolution, high speed. The digital display is high resolution, low speed.You might use the bar graph for adjusting trimmers for peaks or nulls. Maybe you do the finest adjustment using the digital display, but it's faster to do the coarse adjustment using the bar graph as a guide.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2014, 08:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on January 22, 2014, 04:37:49 amQuote from: AG6QR on January 22, 2014, 05:37:29 amThis feature makes a lot of sense and seems useful enough for Dave to spend a little more time on. It will be on the next meter I get.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2014, 08:04:01 pm
content: I noticed on the recent, nice greenlee teardown that has an audible and visual warning for incorrect probe placement. I was reading the BK Precision manual( not a good manual) and they mention similar. I don't know if it has a visual too.Input Warning BeeperThe meter has a beeper that warns the user when the test lead is in the currentjack while the meter is switched to make a voltage measurement. Another safetyfeature to protect the meter and you.http://www.bkprecision.com/downloads/manuals/en/2709B_manual.pdf

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2014, 06:00:13 am
content: That safety aural warning is not very common and is seldom found on budget meters. Other meters with this feature are in the UNI-T UT71 range. Obviously, the safest system is the reliable mechanical blanking of the input jacks, as implemented by Gossen on their MetraHit range.Interestingly, on their new series of meters, Gossen has combined the A and mA input jacks, making the blanking mechanism simpler.

author: Lunasix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2014, 08:40:03 am
content: Many Wavetek / Meterman have this warning beeper when test lead isn't at the right place. For example DM30XL and even the very cheap DM5XP.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2014, 09:56:10 am
content: The Meterman DM5XP is made by Amprobe, a company which is big on input protection, just like parent company Fluke. I wouldn't call it cheap though, selling for about 60 USD. That's a lot of dough for a 2000 count meter with manual ranging and mA range only.http://content.amprobe.com/manuals/15X355X_umeng0000.pdf

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2014, 06:47:02 pm
content: I finally got my 2709B and my first impressions are that construction is good. I like the probes and the basic usage is fine. The display's good. The backlight's good, although it shuts off automatically after some seconds. Not sure if that's a feature or bug. The manual's basic and not really good, I had to search online to figure out what's what. Yes I'm a novice for sure but it's possible a novice might read the manual. I suspect veterans would not. Knowing your audience when you write something's important.While trying to measure mA I was disappointed. But maybe my expectations are not realistic. I used a wall charger, supposed to be 4.5V and 700mA. I get 6.4V and for reading amps I had to plug into the 10A terminal on the bk and I got a fluctuating reading. It's possible that it's a PEBPAC (problem between probes and chair). But I also consider the previous mention somone made about uCurrent and burden voltage. I suspect that's the issue here. I don't have an accurate power supply.I was working on adding the BK to this page but due to my lack of understanding for all the DMM specs I couldn't create the proper xml. I used the UT61 xml as a template from the site below as a starting point and the BK specs to modify the UT61 data.http://www.johannes-bauer.com/electronics/mmcomparison/?menuid=2The columns for the different metrics (DCV, ACV, DCA, Ohms, etc.) are like so:maxvalue="2.200000e+2" resolution="1.000000e-2" errorpercent="5.000000e-1" errorcounts="1.000000e+1"max and res are simple enough but the last two had me scratching my head. I think the data's in the manual but I may be missing something simple but not yet obvious to me. Translating the below to fit the columns is my problem.Here are BK 2709B specs:CurrentRanges: 660uA, 6600uA, 66mA, 400mA, 10AResolution: 0.1uADC accuracy:± ( 1.5% rdg + 2 dgts) on 660uA to 400mA ranges± ( 3.0% rdg + 3 dgts) on 10A rangeAC accuracy: (TRUE RMS) (50Hz ~ 500Hz)± ( 2.0% rdg + 10 dgts) on 660uA to 400mA ranges± ( 3.5% rdg + 10 dgts) on 10A rangeCrest factor: 3Voltage burden: 0.4V on 660uA, 66mA, 10A ranges2V on 6600uA, 400mA ranges