Massive ripoff attempt on next door neighbour thwarted - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 06:48:29 am
content: My next door neighbour owns a DeLonghi wine cooler out of warranty - a small fridge. It stopped working and he called a repairman. The repairman charged him $240 to remove a faulty circuit board. Fair enough. It is a very simple PCB with a 7812 type 12V linear regulator on it and a relay and not much else. Look at the photo here.The technician told my neighbour a replacement board costs... wait for it...$1,200plus labour to install it. About $1,700 all up including the $240 to come out in the first place... more than what the Italian branded whitegoods rubbish is worth.My neighbour thought it was a bit expensive and he told the repairman he'll think about it, then he dropped by my house with the board. The electrolytic cap was a bit bulging (tested OK though) and the 7812 had a dead short internally. I had a spare LM340T-12 voltage regulator and a high quality electrolytic capacitor to replace the hu-flung-dung brand capacitor. Cost was nothing to me and I won't charge my neighbour anything as he is a nice bloke and a good neighbour.Part of Australian culture is that ripping people off is seriously frowned upon. Was this a red herring, or is this sort of ripoff more commonplace?

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 07:02:20 am
content: i'm in western washington and i've seen posts on reddit that suggest i could make money.. driving all the way to california, and back.. to change out a compressor on wine fridges.to some extent the prices they get estimates for.. are just the cost of having a repair man within half an hour of housing prices at 20 million an acre.

author: Dan123456
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 07:09:43 am
content: I think it’s pretty common unfortunatelyA lot of industries don’t repair anything anymore as the labour cost is too high compared to what they would make from the repairFor instance, back in my mechanic days everything was just remove and replace so you might have one broken wire in a car that could be soldered back together… but the boss man will charge the customer for a whole new harness plus a days worth of labor to fit it.I can’t speak from first hand experience on whitegoods, but have heard similar stories from mates saying repairing their dishwasher or what not was gonna be 2 or 3 times more expensive than a new one!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 07:14:48 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 27, 2023, 06:48:29 amI have no doubt that dodgy operators are out there. However this is insanity.For those reading along at home, if the unit was slightly out of warranty, you could make a claim citing Australian Consumer Law. I'm sure DeLonghi being a "reputable" brand would have just sent out their service techs, or at the very least, a replacement part for free.But you get what you pay for. I recently had to get someone to look at my Bosch/Siemens dishwasher which was leaking and triggering a "water doesn't belong here" error. The unit was purchased in 2015 and has been great to this day.I went to the Bosch website, logged a service job and they sent a local company out the following day. The part (something to do with the sump) was replaced at no charge. Bosch identified that there was a design defect in that model during manufacture which caused a seal to leak over time. The faulty part was replaced and I wasn't out of pocket. I was actually shocked, as I fully expected to pay at least a call-out fee, but nope, Bosch took it upon themselves to remedy the issue for free without me even asking. THAT'S service and it's the reason why I wouldn't hesistate to buy a Bosch appliance again. It's been rock solid.Meanwhile my neighbour bought a cheap dishwasher from Aldi (some rebadged Chinese rubbish). He has been through 2 units in 3 months and the second unit is now faulty with the same problem.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 07:17:16 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 27, 2023, 06:48:29 amIt seems to be par for the course when involving wine fridges. "Cost down" design at top of the market prices. Take a cheap fridge, change the thermostat and put a glass door on and sell it for 6 times the price.Then again maybe I've repaired enough that I'm just old and bitter.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 07:23:38 am
content: Sometimes it is easier to name a price no reasonable person would pay rather than explain why you don't want the job. And if they pay, oh well, you will make some money.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 09:39:52 am
content: Might be interesting to search the p/n of the board to see what the online speres places sell it for...I volunteer at my local Repair Cafehttps://www.repaircafe.organd I guess we manage to fix half of the stuff that comes in with basic hand tools and an assortment of bits we carry in our tool kits - and if it's something like the OP one of us would take it home to fix and make arrangements for the user to collect it later.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 10:55:49 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 27, 2023, 07:23:38 amAh, the ol' "go away" price.At a previous job, my employer once quoted an existing client such a price, as we were too busy but didn't want to flat out say "no". Except the fools actually accepted the quote, and we had to drop everything and do that job instead.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 11:19:03 am
content: Inescapable consequence from the conflict of interested between selling new products and repairing old products.first party repair costs naturally move towards where a repair has the same profit as a new sale.Best solution to the problem is strong right to repair laws.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 01:03:30 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 27, 2023, 07:14:48 amWhat dishwasher do you have and what was the error code? We have a Bosch that threw an error code that I think was related to water collecting in the pan. So I wonder if it was the same problem as yours.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 01:40:06 pm
content: Over here practises like that are common for lock smiths, plumbers that deal with emergencies (broken water pipe) and sewer blockage services.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 01:57:27 pm
content: OTish, but it looks as if that board cooks, particularly around the bridge rectifier diodes (and contributing to the regulator temperature). It might be worth suggesting that any ventilation slots aren't obstructed.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 05:18:02 pm
content: Yeah, those diodes got hot enough to scorch the PCB and boil the capacitor sitting practically on top of them. Diabolically clever engineering in a planned-obsolescence sense, and diabolically stupid in all other respects.Usually when a 78xx regulator fails dead short, it's because there's more energy storage downstream than upstream. Was the large capacitor good in the sense that its capacitance was still within tolerance, or was it just good from an ESR standpoint?If the smaller capacitor next to it is 100 uF or so, and the input bus had another load that discharged it in a hurry at cycle-off time, that could make life rough for the 7812. I'd put a diode across it before giving it back.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 08:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 27, 2023, 01:57:27 pmReading a product manual with completely serious instructions like "keep a 30cm open space on all sides of the appliance", for a fridge. Hopefully dishwashers aren't as picky even though they are installed almost identically in kitchen cabinetry.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 08:26:56 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 27, 2023, 07:23:38 amand I can see why a pro that is going to be on hook for the result wouldn't want to bodge something together unless they get paid really well

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 08:48:36 pm
content: Lots of craziness in the repair world. My parent's stairlift is insane. A simple mechanical microswitch is 60$ when it comes in a plastic bag with a bar code on it, the switch is an Aliexpress special for 1$ each.I bought 20 of them and I'll probably change them all and have spares too.Those wine coolers use a Peltier device, and the power supply is often so cost-reduced the lifetime is (warranty period)+delta and it fails.I had one, I was constantly repairing the supply.Now I only drink Scotch.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 09:30:21 pm
content: I found the board listed here:https://modulerepair.com.au/product-details/6525/wine-fridge-power-modulebut no priceSimilar board with controls here for $77:https://www.partstown.com.mx/en/avanti/avndg3-1040-1Or from china, for $10:https://www.taobao.com/list/item/679061701962.htm?spm=a21wu.10013406.taglist-content.1.1b752380tdyYPOlolI would leave them a negative review on google if they are listed there.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 09:43:45 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on November 27, 2023, 05:18:02 pmYou are right. Cheap arsed design. A diode from Vout to Vin is a good idea in those old regulators. Some don't handle current flowing backwards well after switch-off.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 10:38:44 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 27, 2023, 07:14:48 amYes, Bosch is pretty good.I will only buy German made Bosch whitegoods from now on. Pay extra but have less troubles. Excellent quality. There were two consumer Bosch dishwashers at a company I worked at, in the cafe. Each ran half the day (fill up one whilst the other is washing). They had been working for eight years without a problem! Bosch is safest these days. Less callouts and less change. We have a German-made Bosch front-loading clothes washer and are very happy with it.In contrast, just over the hill are Italian-made whitegoods. I have an expensive two door Whirlpool fridge with ice-maker and water filter, made in Italy. When it was delivered it didn't get cold. Whirlpool forgot to put the gas in it. The technician said it had never been gassed and it had never been tested. The plastics inside are rubbish, they use substandard plastics and are of poor design. Half of it is destroyed and of course Whirlpool has no spare parts. So it is hanging together with 3D printed parts. The fridge needs replacing. But the biggest shock was the fridge's controller PCBA with its mains AC to DC power supply. They converted the 230V mains to 3.3V by using capacitors and resistors. The Hu-Flung-dung brand capacitors dried up and the PIC chip on the motherboard was continuously resetting. There was no mains isolation transformer of course... anything for the knuckleheads to save a lira.During the 2-year warranty there were six call outs. From then on, I fixed everything I could myself, including replacing those crappy capacitors. Whilrpool is completamente stupido nella testa.I should not knock the Italians too much. The reputedly make good cars that sell for $400K+. Besides, the missus is Italian so I better watch what I say. Australia made inferior whitegoods from the 70's until now. Junk that never lasted very long. But back in the 50's they made Holden, Fridgidaire and other brand fridges that were build like tanks and lasted for many decades. They were simple, well insulated, effective and reliable. No callouts needed. Those days are gone.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 10:44:56 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 27, 2023, 01:40:06 pmThe joke in Australia is is plumbing is the only profession where you can rob people in broad daylight and never go to prison. I guess no-one wants to do a crap job for crap money.As for locksmiths, cut a house key... $5. Cut a car key on a blank with a fob you bought from China... $80. Why? Because they can.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 11:58:39 am
content: Quote from: YurkshireLad on November 27, 2023, 01:03:30 pmThe model is a Siemens SN46M583AU (I think they also call it an IQ500). The error I was getting was E15 and the pump would run continuously when the unit was powered on.The repairer said it only takes a small amount of water (less than half a cup) to trip the sensor under the sump. It's designed this way so you don't flood the electronics or cause more expensive problems.They weren't specific about exactly which part was manufactured incorrectly (and I didn't ask), but Siemens/Bosch offered to replace it for free.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 12:59:11 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 28, 2023, 11:58:39 amThanks. Very interesting - I think we got the E15 error as well, but I may be wrong. I'll do some more research.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 01:22:41 pm
content: many wine coolers get defectives on the psu since it works continuously and i find them under rated for the taskrepaired some of them with better ones at least twice the current output ... never died again ...

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 02:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 28, 2023, 11:58:39 amDo you have an online reference where Siemens/Bosch say a part was manufactured incorrectly?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2023, 10:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: YurkshireLad on November 28, 2023, 02:34:24 pmNope, this is just what was told to me by the repairer (hence not being charged for the service or part). The process I followed was:1. Logged a service request through the "MySiemens" portal (you'll need to create an account).2. Siemens referred it to a local repairer in my area.3. Repairer came out, inspected it, ordered the part, then returned to replace it.4. Job done, no charge.I imagine there is probably some kind of note or recall attached to the model/serial number of my unit in the backend, so if they see this fault code, investigate the known issue.I was never made aware of it, as I mentioned, I fully expected to pay for it as it was well and truly out of warranty by that stage.

author: u666sa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 07:51:09 am
content: There is a law of twos and threes, if you have client in the morning with something particular, that means that day there will be more clients with that same thing. Just the other week I went to a store wanting to buy a zener, and guess what, two guys in front of me were also buying zeners, and a guy after me came in to buy a zener. Crazy. No explanation why like this. It is just like this world over. If dude brings you dead macbook in the morning, that means you will see more macbooks that same day. But I digress..I am waaaay long past over doing stuff for free for people. Because in the long run, after it is done and over with, they won't return you same favor, neighbor or not. One taxi driver comes to mind, I had a beat up office on 5th floor and next door was taxi dispatcher, so taxi drivers would come in. I fixed mic for one dude, just some wires. Time went by. Dude offered to drive me to supermarket several miles away for money and I knew for a fact I can drive there for less if I used the app, and I was waiting for the bus.Good did never comes back, man. Above is just one example, but there are plenty of these examples.If you did something for someone for free or cheap, there is a law of twos and threes, more people will come to you and expect you to do stuff for free or cheap for them. But, if you decide to take money for it!!! Ohhhhh... They will get butt hurt, turn around and leave, and then talk bad about you behind your back.Don't do stuff for people for free! Ever! Take money even if you think the thing doesn't worth anything, because that is not true. If the thing didn't worth anything, the dude wouldn't come to you. If he came to you, that means it worth something for him, keep that in mind.Charge people money. Always.Look, at the end of the day it does not matter if they think you're a good boy! Did this and that for free. At the end of the day matters if people think you worth something. They think you worth something when they spend money on you.

author: dl6lr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 04:34:31 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 27, 2023, 07:14:48 amSame story here with a Nikon lens. It got faulty several years after purchase. I asked if it even could be repaired and they asked to send it in for a free repair. There was a free of charge service call several years ago that I that I failed to notice.

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 08:02:01 pm
content: And when you fix something for someone, for free or not, you will be responsible for ANYTHING that goes wrong with that product FOREVER.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 08:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 28, 2023, 10:59:36 pmThanks. We got the E15 error again so we switched off the fuse for it in the basement. We left it for a few days hoping the water would evaporate, and it did. It's been running fine for a few days now. I may look into this portal if it keeps happening at more frequent intervals.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 07:30:56 am
content: Quote from: Someone on November 27, 2023, 08:12:33 pmThe reason for that is on the "new" fridges the condenser is built into the skin of the side walls rather than hanging a coil off the back, therefore you need convection space for air to circulate.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 08:41:06 am
content: Quote from: BILLPOD on December 08, 2023, 08:02:01 pmBullshit, and if any would try to hold you to that, tell them to get lost. But don't let that fallacy prevent anyone from helping anyone else.But on a general note, it's a shame more people don't get into electronic repair as there's a decent demand for it. The unfortunate thing is that technicians with troubleshooting ability are so rare, and the good ones upgrade themselves to engineering.