Rechargeable Batteries in multimeters etc - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: terryt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 02:28:40 am
content: I have searched the forum's Index but was not able to find a thread relevant to my Noobie question.Is there general consensus here on whether it is better to use quality 1.3V rechargeable batteries (e.g. Eneloop) in place of quality 1.5V alkaline batteries in equipment such as multimeters (digital/analogue) and clamp meters etc. And, if so, why so, please.A while back I was cross-testing a mini clamp meter (powered by Eneloop's) with a Fluke 87V in the lower amp ranges and the clamp meter was off a fair bit to the Fluke...but I can't recall now exactly by how much. I tested the Eneloop's and they were at about 50% capacity. I fitted new alkaline batteries and immediately the clamp meter results were much closer to the Fluke.At the time I didn't know whether this was simply one of those "shouldn't happen, but did" events and promised myself to eventually post on EEVblog and ask the question.Any comments will be appreciated.

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 02:49:19 am
content: I use my Fluke multimeter every day and I frequently do not turn it off but it turns itself off if it is not used for a few minutes. It has a name brand alkaline battery or battery cells that have been running for years. It does not need a rechargeable battery that needs to be charged every year.If it is not used often then an Eneloop battery holds a charge for only 1 year but a name brand alkaline battery is guaranteed for 10 years.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 03:10:28 am
content: Quote from: terryt on February 25, 2017, 02:28:40 amWhat model clamp meter are you using?

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 03:12:28 am
content: Quote from: Audioguru on February 25, 2017, 02:49:19 amNewer generations of eneloops can hold a certain percentage of their charge for up to 5 years now.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneloop

author: terryt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 09:39:52 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on February 25, 2017, 03:10:28 amI was playing around with a couple of clamp meters at the time but I'm fairly confident it was a CEM DT-337 (4A/80A).

author: terryt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 09:42:05 pm
content: ToAudioguruandretiredcaps:Thank you for your comments.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 09:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: Audioguru on February 25, 2017, 02:49:19 amI have put cameras loaded with Eneloops away for two or three years or more, and they have still worked fine when switched on. To own Eneloops is to love them.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 10:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: terryt on February 25, 2017, 02:28:40 amI think a primary reason for avoiding alkalines is the risk of leakage. If you use alkaline batteries, then statistically youwillencounter a leaking battery that ruins something. For example it happened to me with my room thermostat.If you have something nice that you want to look after, then putting alkaline batteries in it is a risk you may wish to avoid.I will sometimes use lithium batteries, but I have found that some things will not operate properly because the voltage is too high. I may even have damaged one thing by putting lithiums in it.The operating voltage of an Eneloop is a bit lower than a fresh alkaline cell, but at about 1.2-1.3 V it should be fine for most things. A good meter will compensate for declining battery voltage and continue to read accurately down to the low battery warning.If you have something in frequent use then you can probably take the risk with alkalines. But if you put something away, then you must either remove the batteries or put non-leaky batteries in it.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 10:50:32 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 25, 2017, 10:06:35 pm+1, this sum up everything and answered OP's question imo.Oh, I'm a fanatic & militant Eneloop user here.Just let the pics to tell my sad story ...Be reminded, this picture was taken at 2013 , way far from the batteries expiry date and NOT drained at all at that time.This was happened to my fluke 287 terminals because of that leaks

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 10:58:25 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 25, 2017, 10:06:35 pmI have found that Energizer alkaline batteries never leak and are guaranteed not to leak. Every old Duracell alkaline battery I have seen were leaking all over the place. Every old Chinese "super heavy duty" battery I have seen are also leaking and even in the store before they are sold.

author: terryt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 11:39:19 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 25, 2017, 10:50:32 pm

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 11:56:45 pm
content: I'll echo IanB's comments. If you value your equipment, use rechargeable batteries. With alkalines, you risk damage from leaks. Even if they are guaranteed, do you want to go through the process of making a claim, shipping your damaged equipment away and then waiting for a replacement or compensation some time in the future? I've done it. Never again. Just say "no" to alkaline batteries.Do make sure that the device was properly designed to operate at the lower voltage of rechargeables. This actually applies even if the voltage was the same because you want to be able to make full use of the energy in the cells. I shudder to think how many alkaline batteries are disposed of prematurely due to poor design.

author: terryt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 12:05:00 am
content: Quote from: Audioguru on February 25, 2017, 10:58:25 pmNot what I wanted to hear.The DuracellUltra Power(AA & AAA) are my go-to alkaline batteries (in Australia), and so far, no leakages that I can recall. Just checked my stock, some of each size are made in Belgium, and some made in China...so if all are made to Duracell's spec, no problem.The Eneloop (AA & AAA) are my go-to rechargeable batteries. I have 100 of each size currently installed in various household and automotive tools and equipment.In the past I have had "standard" Everyready and Duracell batteries leak on me.

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 03:07:01 am
content: http://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-ultimate-lithium-batteriesFor my good meters. Rechargables for my cheap meters. Alkalines for my disposable meters.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 03:19:29 am
content: Quote from: daybyter on February 26, 2017, 03:07:01 amHowever, unfortunately...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-bm235-does-not-accept-lithium-batteries/

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 03:28:51 am
content: Quote from: terryt on February 25, 2017, 09:39:52 pmHmm, CEM. They don't have the greatest reputation for making/producing high quality meters. The build quality ranges from terrible to average and a meter made on Monday isn't necessary identical to one made on Tuesday.I looked for a manual, but couldn't find one athttp://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/682/pid/690/pids/1215and looking at the glossy CEM brochure athttp://www.ponpe.com/download/Catalog/CEM%202007%20Clamp%20meter.pdfI can't help but notice that on their other clamp meters, one of the features they tout is "low battery indication". However, this feature is not mentioned in the DT337 page. So it is possible that, under load, the rechargeable batteries is below the threshold of an "accurate" reading and the DT337 doesn't indicate low battery.Of course, I could be wrong, but without a manual, I don't know for sure. And after spending more than 5 minutes searching, I gave up.BTW, I am re-watching Martin's video to seeif I can spot the start screen to see if there is a low battery icon.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 03:39:12 am
content: All major dry cell brands in the USA will repair equipment damaged by their batteries leaking. They have to do this because damaged caused by product failure is a tort. It may also be the case in other countries.If the damage is confined to the battery compartment, it may be very simple to polish the contacts to good metal and you're "right as rain". If the device is left in the back of a closet for 10 years the damage can be much more extensive, which is why removing batteries is such a good idea when you put something away.

author: terryt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 05:52:11 am
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on February 26, 2017, 03:28:51 amThank you for taking so much interest and time in this matter, appreciated.I was aware before buying it that the CEM DT-337 is not generally regarded as a quality name meter; and I wouldn't expect it to be so at the price.The CEM DT-337 does have a low battery indicator icon but I don't recall seeing it displayed at the time of testing.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 06:10:35 am
content: Quote from: terryt on February 26, 2017, 05:52:11 amOn those cheap $5 830 style multimeters, lots of newbie 1st time TV fixers/DIY people use them over at badcaps.net because that is all they have. Or they get them free from Harbor Freight.While these cheap meters have a low battery icon, they almost never come on early enough. When guiding newbies through measuring voltages, almost 10% of the time, they report nonsense readings. When they put in a fresh 9V battery, the same voltage reading then makes sense.In some of Martin's meter videos, he hooks up the meter to a variable DC power supply and voltage reference. He then dials down the voltage until the low battery icon comes on and obverses whether the DCV reading is still accurate or not. Some meters, when low battery icon is on, drift quite a bit out of spec (10% or more).On newer Fluke models, when the battery gets below the threshold, the lcd displays "bATT" and doesn't allow the user to make another measurement.When it comes to CEM branded or ODM/OEM meters, I think"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me".

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 06:37:13 am
content: Quote from: helius on February 26, 2017, 03:39:12 amWell, theoretically these sound really nice, isn't it ?Here, Energizer also has that kind of policy.The real question is, are you really prepared to go spend on your time, energy, prolly tears and to go through the "red tapes" (aka excessive bureaucracy) which is specially designed to demotivate the claimer to do such thing ?Yeah, I've been that path before here locally.If its just a non critical stuff like your shaver, toy or flashlight, then its fine, no big deal.But the other real question is, are you really want to send off your precious, that is still in cal (expensive calibration btw) piece of fine test equipment of yours, to go through their claim process ?Oh yeah, that prolly take "a while" too, and who hell know what they're going to do with it.My 2 cents.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 07:49:39 pm
content: I use rechargeables in all of my gear. I switched after I had alkalines leak and ruin the battery holders in both my Capacitor Wizard and my flyback transformer tester. An added bonus is I don't have to replace a set of batteries every time I forget to turn the thing off when I put it away. I use 8.4V NiMH "9V" batteries in my Fluke 87 and I can use the backlight all I want without feeling like I'm wasting batteries, it works fine.

author: vealmike
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 12:00:46 pm
content: Meters generally aren't a good application for (lithium) rechargeables.Lithium-ion advantages over alkaline:High energy densityHigh current for volume.Lithium-ion disadvantages compared to alkaline.High self discharge current.Expensive.Basically in a meter, you'll never use the capacity afforded by the Li-ion. Unless you're using the meter for hours every day the batteries will self discharge faster than the meter will drag them down. So the energy density is useless.You don't need the current ability either.For an application that sits for long periods between being switched on, Li-ion is not a great choice. May as well fit the throw away.