Power Transformer behavior at higher frequencies - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: alireza7
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 08:52:04 am
content: Suppose a 220VAC to 110VAC ,50Hz, 20w transformer.How is it's behavior in higher (1khz up to 10Mhz) frequencies? Does it attenuate signals with high frequencies or not?Actually i want to know that if using a transformer on the mains line improves EMC of my system and protection against burst signals or not?

author: eb4fbz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 10:26:52 am
content: Quote from: alireza7 on January 02, 2019, 08:52:04 amYes, because impedance is very low at high frequency (differential mode). However, at very very high frequency you have to accound for interwinding capacitance for common mode rejection.

author: alireza7
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: eb4fbz on January 02, 2019, 10:26:52 amI would be appreciate if you explain more about interwinding capacitance.How can i increase this capacitance in order to increase common mode rejection?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:31:52 pm
content: Yes.The small-signal model looks like this:where the transformer part is an ideal transformer.To understand capacitances, add capacitors between pairs of terminals too. This gives the second order equivalent, which for a given load impedance, shows a low-frequency cutoff (due to the magnetizing inductance, Xo), a high frequency cutoff (due to leakage inductance X1+X2 and capacitances), and poor isolation at high frequencies (due to the capacitors from primary to secondary).The capacitances and inductances can resonate, giving peaks or valleys in the frequency response around the HF cutoff. A real transformer, with multiple layers of windings, can have many such peaks and valleys, which needs a higher-order model to represent. Let's just quietly ignore that for now, and approximate it with this model instead.For a typical split-bobbin mains transformer, leakage inductance dominates around a few kHz. Actually, leakage is pretty significant at mains frequency itself, too, which combined with DC resistance of the windings (R1 + R2), allows some transformers to be "impedance protected" -- that is, you can short the secondary and it won't burst into flames. It might still get hot though, as you will have noticed if you've seen a melted wall-wart before. This is the feature, that comes with the bug: poor regulation, i.e., Vout varies strongly with Iout. Often you'll measure an open-circuit voltage ~1.5 times nominal output; the output comes down to nominal at rated load.Anyway, the capacitance on this type is also pretty low, which is nice for mains noise isolation purposes.For a typical "shell" style transformer (EI core, windings overlapping on a single bobbin), leakage is lower, taking over in the low 10s of kHz. Regulation is good. Capacitance is higher. For low-noise purposes, an electrostatic shield (a layer of foil, slitted to avoid it becoming a shorted turn) is usually inserted between primary and secondary, basically solving the capacitance problem with regards to noise. (The capacitance is still relatively high (100s pF?), but it's to ground only.)For a toroid style transformer, leakage is even lower and capacitance is even higher. I don't know that I've seen one of these made with a shield; youcould, but I don't know if anyonedoes? Kind of awkward wrapping flat foil around a donut, after all. Anyway, these have good efficiency, surprisingly high bandwidth (sometimes low 100s kHz), and good regulation.If you take the question a little further and ask about SMPS transformers as well, then the bandwidth continues to rise -- it has to carry sharp square waves -- but there are again a number of variations. Resonant SMPSs can have intentionally poor transformers, making use of leakage inductance as part of the resonant circuit. The bandwidth in this case will be relatively low (a bit less than the switching frequency itself), at least when loaded with all the capacitors and diodes and stuff in circuit. On the other hand, very compact, high frequency DC-DC isolators need to have very low capacitance and high bandwidth, which means making the transformers as small as possible.Tim

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 02:37:21 pm
content: Just in case, there are devices designed for this purpose: power line filters.2 T3sl4co1l: there are toroidal transformers with electrostatic shielding, but they are rare. The easiest way to find them is to search for "toroidal audio transformer". Like this one:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIY-Audio-Grade-Toroidal-Transformer-300V-A-GOSS-band-and-screen-grid/382615178797?hash=item5915a44e2d:g:s04AAOSwCfRbFQTr:rk:2:pf:0.

author: alireza7
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 06:43:55 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 02, 2019, 01:31:52 pmIn addition to the facts that you said can we also say since the burst signals have large amplitude ( e.g. 2kv peak, 50ns duration ,5Khz frequency ) the core become saturated and Xo become low (Iu,the magnitization current become high) and the transformer is somehow short circuit and doesn't pass the signal?And also i think core loss become high at high frequencies so Ro became low. Am i right?

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 10:09:02 am
content: I did a little experiment with a 120V to 30V 30VA laminated power transformer. I used a frequency generator on the primary and an oscilloscope on the secondary.I injected 10Vpp at varying frequencies to see what the output would look like at the secondary.I haven't tested this particular transformer to see the actual ratio but that didn't seem important for this experiment. The experiment was to see at what frequencies this transformer would hold a stable peak to peak voltage.The transformer is supposed to have a 4:1 ratio and showed at the secondary approximately 2.4Vpp between 13hz and 270Khz on the oscilloscope.From 270khz to 490khz it climbed 2.4Vpp to 5.6Vpp.Above 490khz the Vpp started to drop of .At 1Mhz the secondary only read 0.8Vpp.I took other arbitrary readings like capacitance of the transformer but couldn't make sense of them at the time.But capacitance seemed to drop off to zero at around 9.3khz.I also took DMM readings on the primary and secondary .Primary held 3.9Vac through the whole range of frequencies .The secondary showed the highest voltage at at the highest capacitance but also dropped to zero of at 9.3khz.Anyway I thought it was an interesting little experiment and will look into it more .

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 10:20:56 am
content: Yeah, not bad, also not unexpected. It's not very meaningful without a load resistance -- again, transformers have a characteristic impedance, and best results are had when source and load resistance match their respective windings.Capacitance measurements are only meaningful at low frequencies, where the windings aren't interfering with the measurement. And even then, that's only between windings, or winding and core, or shield, or etc. You can't meaningfully take the self-capacitance of a winding -- you probably need an impedance vs. frequency measurement to fit that.Tim

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 06:45:50 pm
content: Under full load, the most important parameter in the frequency response of a linear transformer is the leakage inductance, and the cut-off frequency is in the range of a few kHz or less.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 09:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: alireza7 on January 02, 2019, 08:52:04 amHi,from a 220V:110V 50Hz line transformer you can expect- useful power transfer up to ca. 400Hz- above that iron core losses rise too much so that the transformer gets hotabove ca. 400Hz interwinding capacitances, iron losses and stray inductance spoil the broth. You will see a lot of resonances and an erratic transfer rate and input and output impedance.If you need a wideband transformer, it is probably some type of injection transformer, like here :electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/injection-transformers/These go from a few 10Hz to some MHz and they have a defined amplitude/phase transfer characteristic. The drawback is that only smaller voltages are allowed.Have fun experimentingWolfgang

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 02:22:16 pm
content: BTW, rumors () say a cheap current transformer can serve as a poor man's injection transformer. Never tried myself. "APPLICATION NOTE 3245"https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/3245

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 03:32:13 pm
content: Quote from: exe on January 04, 2019, 02:22:16 pmIts not a rumour. For a limited frequency range, they work fine. Seeelectronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/injection-transformers/Its also possible to make homebrew transformers as good as commercial ones, like here:https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/injection-transformers/measuring-commercial-and-homebrew-injection-transformers/

author: alireza7
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 10:14:06 am
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on January 03, 2019, 09:54:00 pmNo i need essentially a base band transformer which eliminate surge , burst and conducted RF signals.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 12:00:55 pm
content: If I get you right you want a common mode choke ?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 12:07:33 pm
content: You can eliminate those factors with a synthesized sine wave inverter / UPS -- you cannoteliminatethem with a transformer.A transformer canattenuatethem to some extent or another, so if you have some acceptable attenuation figure or noise floor or threshold, we can give a meaningful answer.Tim

author: alireza7
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 02:10:42 pm
content: I want to reject both common mode and differential mode signalsFor this purpose i designed a circuit like this:Vout goes to a switching power supplyDo you think this circuit will pass surge and burst and conducted RF tests?If you don't know what are surge and burst and conducted RF see this website:

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 03:42:32 pm
content: Quote from: alireza7 on January 07, 2019, 02:10:42 pmAgain, if you do not have a meaningful spec, you cannot possibly hope for a meaningful answer.Taking the above statement at face value, the best rejection of both common mode and differential mode signals is to short the input of whatever this connects to. That way all signals -- transients, noise, and mains voltage -- are rejected about as well as can be (>120dB, if a little shielding is provided?).Tim

author: alireza7
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2019, 06:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 07, 2019, 03:42:32 pmI read a lot about EMC(surge,burst,...) but my goal is just to designed a protection circuit in order to prevent any MCU reset or malfunctioning in secondary circuit (which contains micro-controller and analog circuit) ,when we apply burst and surge signals . So unfortunately i don't have any sense to numbers and required specs.