Why are prices so high and/or how overpriced is equipment ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 09:34:36 am
content: I know u could ask this about anything from any time, whither in the stone-age, or electronic ageI want a good function generator and spectrum analyzer or a modern Tektronix scope as examples, but they all cost a fortune for someone working part-time or trying to raise a family.What to u think of the prices ?

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 10:02:34 am
content: High quality equipment has always been expensive.In 1969, the price for a Tek 310A was $ 735 and the price of the Tek 453 was $ 1950, and we are talking about really hard dollars.The main difference that I see, is that those instruments were really high quality built, designed to last for decades.Even today, you have a good chance to repair them if they break.Today instruments are made of cheap plastic parts, with lots of electronics components that are made of unobtanium.In a few years, they will become unrepairable because of lack of spare parts.My employer can afford to pay for modern disposable equipment, I cannot.For my own private work, I maintain an archaic ensemble of instruments that I can always repair.The only modern pieces are a Fluke 179, a Fluke 87V and an Ersa i-con 2.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 10:11:41 am
content: I am always surprised at how much people want for second hand gear on ebay - often close to, or even more than, new prices - I think this is because they paid a lot more a few years ago and then cheaper chinese alternatives appeared.One advantage though that a home buyer has in a lot of cases is time. That is you can wait for a good price - I probably over do this as I hang around for years. A business needs kit now and can't wait so must buy new and probably close to list. I got most of my kit as refurbished or ex demo so it still had warranty but was much cheaper but you can't get such bargains when you want often and have to wait until something turns up.I agree with ferdieCX about the fact that kit can become unrepairable - this makes it a bit of a gamble for those of us on a budget. I can't afford to pay for extended warranties even if available, but repair costs, going with what has been said on this forum, are often higher than the original second hand price.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 12:57:12 pm
content: I was able to purchase some quite nice equiptment I found in cheap second hand stores. I found an Extech Multimaster 560a which the owner had sitting on his shelf for along time. This meter was passed by because it wasn't a Fluke. Do you know what it really is? It's a rebranded Brymen BM857s. It's negatives are it doesn't do temp measurement and the backlight is weak. But it has replaced my desire to purchase an oscilloscope for the present. When I found out how to use all its features I realized it gives a good approximation of what circuit waveforms are and alot more.I was able to get this for cheap because I let it come to me and not set my sights on something I had to have right now. When I go to sell it I will feel it will go for about what I paid for it but not a lot more because its not a Fluke. After a few more years when I go to sell it I don't think it will owe me anything.

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 01:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on August 25, 2018, 09:34:36 amPerfectly reasonable. Businesses need tools that "just work" and don't make the users guess whether there's a problem with the tool itself rather than the device under test. Quality developers and QA (i.e. bug fixing) isn't cheap and we all want decent pay, too. Considering all the effort that goes into quality test equipment, I consider the prices fair.Someone with a limited budget either has to go for old quality gear, get lucky or reduce expectations. If even a Rigol is considered expensive, then joining a hacker space and using their equipment is probably the best option.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 04:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: abraxa on August 25, 2018, 01:12:10 pmAlso: The volume sold istinycompared to other consumer goods.R&D costs have to be recovered so there no way the prices can be compared to mass-produced items, it's apples to oranges.

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 05:58:16 pm
content: Overpriced? My Tek 922 cost $800 back in the 70s and I just bought a 4-channel 200 MHz scope which walks all over it for $500. My single-channel single-frequency signal generator (list $185 back in 1978) has been joined by a two-channel 30 MHz computer-controllable swept-frequency arbitrary waveform unit for about $100. My $200 Fluke DMM has been joined by autoranging high voltage capable units for less than $100.These were all budget units back in the 1970s; in modern dollars test equipment is incredibly cheap and powerful. You can get good brand name gear for the same dollar numbers, which is still cheap counting inflation. All things considered, test equipment has never been a better bargain.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2018, 06:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on August 25, 2018, 09:34:36 amIt's all relative. Do you need the latest model*? Expensive. Do you need it now? Usually expensive. Do you have time to shop? Moderately priced to inexpensive. Can you fix it? Inexpensive to totally free**. Can you buy it locally? Prices are all over the place, but you save on potentially outrageous shipping fees.* Clearly defining your requirements (rather than your desires), can make a big difference in the cost of equipment acquisition.** Of course, there is the cost of parts and time to repair broken equipment, but this can still be significant savings over buying fully working gear.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 12:41:36 pm
content: This is what I have trouble with as a hobbyist,bitseeker writes:"* Clearly defining your requirements (rather than your desires), can make a big difference in the cost of equipment acquisition."My difficulty is I do not know what are my requirements are. I started this hobby around 10 years ago, as therapy, and something tI could lose myself in.Kinda a like doing physics instead of reading Sci-fy for a commercial artistI read RadioShack Mimms books and similar. It seemed all I needed was a DMM under $50, and some basic tools,and a few parts. The repair books kept saying a dual channel scope with at least 100MHz capability..I did not know about eBay or Amazon having technical equipment...I was ready to go..I was set. a few $100 for some parts, a DMM, the hand tools, I already had, though not right for electronics... one of those monster230 watt soldering guns, a blow torch for sweating copper pipes, typicial electricians cutters and linesman pliers, and so forthWhat are my requirements? It keeps changing as I learn more, as I watch Dave's, Ian's, Martin's, Mikes, etc.etc YouTube videos. I just keep getting hooked getting deeper and deeper into the more and more possibilities.I am also stubborn. I set rules for myself. at first it was just $10 per month.( I thought this would be plenty), I would only buy econoChin. stuff too. Preventing me from getting too serious.I had half of a 30"x60" desktop that was able to switch between the electronics desk back to the graphic arts table...I am way beyond what I had set as my limit. fortunately I have a partner with a sense of humor. She loves to bring up the topic at dinner parties, how I blow a much more money than my self-restricted budget on things..Then she get entertained from my griping, trying to shove some piece of tech equipment into a tiny slot in a shelf a slapped together on-the-flyI am the target of the cheap stuff, then upgrading to entry level stuff.. I still refuse to drop the money for Fluke..because This is NOT a business, and my partner, she has made it clear, no new businesses created related to electronics..and that was and is a core rule for myselfSo, finally I ask, What what are my requirements? when I don't know where I am going, yet, keep finding more and new directions within this hobby that excites me...That is perhaps, why she teases me, and everyone else at what I child I have become...If this hobby was cocaine, I would be in rehab, then in prison, then dead by now!

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 01:36:17 pm
content: Wow I didn't know the early stuff cost that much back then. $1950 for a Tek 453 I have a beautiful Tek422 that I have taken apart to checkout and learn from. But I've been busy and haven't touched for ages. I finally think I understand how the PSU works. I can't wait to get into the rest of it very very soon. I can't remember the price tho, 150-200 probably.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 02:25:25 pm
content: Are those old prices corrected for inflation? Because $800 in 1970 was equivalent to wel over $5000 now.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 02:30:06 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on August 25, 2018, 10:11:41 amThe real problem is that everyone monitors the TEA thread and sets the price according to desirability and drool factor of the thread posters.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 02:43:04 pm
content: "drool factor" - love it!! Thanks GreyWoolfe ! I think we shoud oficially adopt this term on EEBBllog. Make it say 1 to 5. Better yet, -1 to 5, as having some negative mark should help extend objectivity of assessments.

author: Fleetz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 03:59:27 pm
content: I can’t believe how cheap things are today! Ok let me preface that comment.In another life I had a company that designed, developed and manufactured TV broadcast equipment. We were at the cutting edge and were always chasing a fast moving technology industry. Our R&D guys always required the best T&M so we were Tektronix centric in what we purchased and their gear was never cheap but it was the best.Now retired I can’t get the engineer out of me and just potter as a hobby now to keep me off the streets. Over the past few years I have bought some secondhand gear mainly off eBay, gear that cost $30k 20 years I bought for less that $200 off eBay, cost more to ship. So have been able to play where I use to make my bread. Probably have around $100K of older Tektronix and other high end broadcast T&M gear don’t think I have paid more than $1k for.Just bought a second hand DS1054Z (all but new) which has been hacked and I can’t believe what this can do for the price. Sure it’s not Tektronix but bang for your dollar this scope 20 years ago would have set you back probably $6-7K or more. The value of money was different back then to, so maybe 9-10k in today’s money?I realise it is all relative and what you would purchase for a business is going to be different than if it’s a hobby. That said I have set my little hobby workshop up with some pretty nice gear for not a lot of money and could design some pretty serious gear if I had the inclination (which I no longer have) so I reckon folks today are pretty spoilt for choice when it come to test, measurement, generators, tools, soldering stations etc etc and at I believe very reasonable price both new and secondhand if your patient with your purchases.Just my 2 ohms...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 04:11:06 pm
content: You pretty much nailed it Fleetz.As you say the capability of modern gear for little cost is astounding. It's not many years back when I only had a CRO and an old Philips FG and now much more capability comes in a single, smaller and much less power hungry box !

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 04:41:02 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 27, 2018, 02:25:25 pmThose are the prices printed in the 1969 Tek catalog. Because of that, I said " really hard dollars "

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 04:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2018, 04:11:06 pmAgreed.

author: Tony_G
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 04:47:56 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2018, 04:11:06 pm+1 - Completely agree - I was doing a little project to get an e-Paper display working with an RPi2 & Windows 10 IoT Core and the total cost of tooling to achieve this was just over $1000. The dev tool (Visual Studio) was free, the Saleae was around $400 and the scope was around $600.I commented to my wife at the time that if I was doing this just 10 years ago (this was 2015 so 2005ish) I would have paid way more for all those items including the OS, board and display.This really is a great time for people entering the business in terms of affordable functionality - My caveat on this is that certain areas like RF still have high price entry points compared to the general case above but compared to where they were 10-20 years ago they're still comparatively inexpensive now.It's just amazing at times what is on offer.TonyG

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 11:20:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fleetz on August 27, 2018, 03:59:27 pmKeysight has new scopes up into the $300k range. I don't need them...I can't see how anybody can complain about the newly reduced price (plus enabled features) of the DS1054Z. We're talking about $350! That's pretty inexpensive and more than adequate for my simple needs. I did buy a Tek 485 a long time back and that covers any need for bandwidth up to 350 MHz. I only paid about $200. But it doesn't have any of the advanced features of the Rigol.I did splurge on a Siglent AWG (SDG2082) but that's still pretty low end in price. It is available with a lower frequency range but I decided to go for it. Now, there are MANY signal generators around (new and used) but how many can add harmonics plus phase shift (like 8 harmonics per channel). That's pretty neat! Still have to be under 80 MHz but that's pretty interesting.If somebody wants the entire bench in a little box, the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 does just about everything for $279. For a low bucks operation, particularly for students, this is the way to go. You get every imaginable instrument in a little box (plus a PC, preferably with a 27" monitor). There are some accessories that really seem more like mandatory - like the BNC adapter plus a couple of 1x-10x probes. This thing is really handy!I don't see the prices as high, I see them as what they are. The only question is whether I am willing to pay them.