keyboard for programmers, any recommendations? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 04:02:55 pm
content: It's time to change my old keyboard because ... well because it just died.R.I.P.(1 sec of silence, to remember how many things I typed on it. Great stuff.It was a rather good IBM PS/2 keyboard. Paid 150 euro, it lasted 10 years)....OK, I am mostly a C programmer, I usually also program in assembly, sometimes in Python, but I think i will write a lot of documents in Latex in the next months because the development list of tasks in my depart is rather idle at the moment.Yesterday I watched a video on Youtube, a dude was mentioning a "keyboard for programmers", but he didn't explain what "for programmers" really mean. He simply showed a very expensive (250 euro) mechanical keyboard, and I am really confused.Is really there a keyboard optimized for programmers?!?Like those keyboards optimized for gamers?That guy also showed his new iMac which comes with a super small keyboard, wireless. Aesthetically it looks nice, but the touch-pad is an external unit you have to buy separately. I don't know how good it for typing, it also comes a fingerprint recognizer, that's exactly one of the features I don't strictly need to have.What I really like to have is a track-point in a decent position (e.g. between the keys G and H?), embedded with the keyboard rather than on an external unit.I really used a lot the track-point on my old keyboard, and I think it's one feature I would like to have on my next keyboard.Any recommendations for a new keyboard?Thanks

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 04:46:34 pm
content: There aren't many options for a full sized keyboard with a pointing stick. AFAIK Unicomp EnduraPro is the only one currently available. Allegedly, its very much like an IBM model M + a classic Trackpoint, but with a USB plug on it. If you can live with a compact keyboard (no numberpad), Lenovo do the standalone USB 'ThinkPad TrackPoint Keyboard II'.I cant actually recommend either as I haven't used them as I'm a cheap-skate and my satisfaction criteria for keyboards are fairly low due to early experiences with rubber keyed 8-bitters best described as typing on a corpse, and I'm not *that* fond of pointing sticks (although if someone would make a min. 5 button mouse with a pointing stick for scroll wheel functionality, I'd be all over it)!N.B. a buckling spring keyboard is likely to make you unpopular in a cube farm due to the resulting noise level!

author: sulami
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 06:28:56 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 02, 2021, 04:02:55 pmNot really. Some are programmable, either via firmware flashing or on the fly, and might allow for macros and such, but in general they all work the same.More interesting imho is actually the form factor and ergonomics. As someone suffering from typing-induced RSI, a well shaped keyboard is just as important to me as a decent chair.In general I’d say go for something mechanical, have a look at different switch kinds and what you might like (stiffness and sound mainly), spend a decent amount but not too much, 80-200 is a good starting point. Stay away from anything too obnoxiously gaming branded, and just pick something that you like. Reviews can be useful too.As for an actual recommendation, I’ve heard good things from colleagues about the CODE keyboard, which is definitely on the pricier end, but a standard form form factor and robustly built.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 08:27:14 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on June 02, 2021, 04:46:34 pmModel M keyboards... I've not seen/feel anything smoother than them.I am not programming professionally anymore but I am still using my IBM-PS2 keyboards (Modem M keyboard) that was once on my IBM-PS2 (model 50, 70 and the p70)... Yeah, they are the round PS2 mouse/keyboard connector plug, but these days they are used via a USB adapter.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 12:54:09 am
content: Ah yeah, Model M...Unicomp now makes keyboards that have a similar tactile feel with USB connection:https://www.pckeyboard.com/Other than that, I'd personally vote for a mechanical keyboard. Much more pleasant to type on. Another point: I'll only use keyboards without numeric keypads these days (aka "tenkeyless"). They are not as wide, and when you're using a mouse, it'll be closer to the center and thus more comfortable in the long run. Numeric keypads is something you can definitely do without. I have a separate numeric keypad just in case, but I hardly ever use it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 05:10:05 am
content: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UWZBP4AThese Unicomp keyboards have the look and feel of the old PC-AT keyboard. They are made for people who know how to type fast.I have two of these and they simply blow the doors off of every other keyboard I have ever had.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 07:15:01 am
content: Having a mixed PC desk/workbench, my preference went to a gaming mechanical TKL (Ten Key Less) keyboard.The lack of a numeric keypad does not bother me in the least, but I would sure feel crippled with any of the lesser layouts, especially when programming.The RGB background lighting is nice to have: I made several static (no flashy effects) layouts e.g. for Visual Studio, LTspice, gaming etc.Many of these keyboards can be bought with different switches, Cherry is still king and a safe choice, though other brands are now almost on par and some might be better.It's up to you to select the right switch for your taste, there aremany combinations of stiffness, tactile feedback and sound(my personal preference is for Cherry Blue = tactile "bump" and loud click - in work environment one might want to select for quietness).Now every time I need to type on a membrane keyboard I pine for myNorwegianBlue Cherry keys.The model I use is a CoolermasterMasterkeys Pro S, though I won't recommend this specific brand and model; they are more or less all similar, as long as:It's from a good brand and solidly built.It comes with the switches you likeIt comes with your preferred features (e.g. lighting, USB hub, maybe macros)I got this one as it had the right switches and at the time it was on offer at a very good price.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 07:23:21 am
content: +1 for Cooler Master - I use an MK750 and rate it highly.IMHO the first, last and only consideration is "can I type comfortably and accurately on this?", and the answer in my case is 'yes'.By contrast, the ,echiancal keyboard on my laprp[ ois terrible and I haye using it fore anything other than the ofdd shortcut.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2021, 07:38:29 am
content: Sure, the old IBM Model M keyboards are good, as are the equivalent Apple ADB keyboards from the 80s. It's fun interfacing either to a modern system.The modern Apple keyboards are actually pretty nice.I don't hate the Microsoft Wireless Desktop 850 with a keyboard and mouse both paired to the same USB dongle that works on anything with USB. I actually have those on my M1 Mac Mini now, as well as the Threadripper, and another set on my RISC-V PC (HiFive Unmatched).The keyboards are "good enough" but the mouse is I think one of the better mice out there.I think they're around US$35 these days.[possibly it is ironic that this is the *only* Microsoft product I buy]

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2021, 10:14:00 pm
content: WASD Cherry MX brownI have two.

author: daveho
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 06, 2021, 11:01:25 pm
content: I'm currently using the absolute cheapest 104 key mechanical keyboard from Amazon, and it's fantastic:https://www.amazon.com/Holiday-Sale-deep-56-Off-Merdia-Mechanical-Keyboard/dp/B076F4T4T4I like it at least as much as any mechanical keyboard I've used, and I've used a few.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2021, 12:26:26 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 03, 2021, 05:10:05 am+1 for the Unicomp keyboards, they are awesome (I have the "ultra classic"). The one downside is - they are huuuuge. But they can't be beat for fast typing...

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2021, 03:32:31 pm
content: PERIXXhttps://perixx.com/products/11525https://perixx.com/products/11354https://perixx.com/collections/mice/products/11534Paul

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 04:56:14 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 02, 2021, 04:02:55 pmKeyboards usually don't just die. and most of the times they are repairable. (which is better to do since it takes a month to rebuild muscle memory.Yes, you can optimize a keyboard for whatever use case... Had I had money, I would have made my own keyboard with num pad on left and A-F buttons next to it for programming and braille stickers on every button. I'd also have a row of programmable keys right above function keys. QMK I think is the software that people use to program such boards, But I'd rather write my own firmware.I'd also not stick to having single color of cherry MX equalvant, but like reds for alphabets blues for enter and numbers etc.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 09:36:39 pm
content: At the office I have a Unicomp. At home I have a Das Keyboard. Both are excellent if you actually type for a living.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 10:20:50 pm
content: I've been programming professionally for 40 years. Nowadays it's mostly C embedded/system programming, plus enterprise distributed systems C#, Java, SQL, Powershell etc as required.Despite my earlier career being very much married to the clunky long travel IBM Model F and Model M, for at least fifteen years it's been the reduced key travel style keyboards that come bundled with PCs.I went through a phase a two or three years ago trying to find the "ultimate" keyboard and spent a fortune on a couple of dozen, particularly with long travel Cherry keys. To put it bluntly, I just couldn't get on with them. It's not just the travel and noise, it's also the implementation, with stupid layouts, key markings, and, particularly on reduced size keyboards, the keys they miss out. Keyboards with backlights seem to be the worst offenders for key markings, some are even upside down on the top row number/symbol keys which confuses the bejeezus out of me.As for bluetooth, forget it for mice and keyboards, it's just far too much trouble fannying about with pairing.My favourite keyboards now aren't poncy $100 units. They're basic run of the mill keyboards with standard layout plus media keys, calculator key, and an on/off key.About 18 months ago, I've finally settled on either of the following two, liking them enough that I have a spare of each in case of failure.Wireless, it's the Logitech MK270 + M185 combo with dongle. It also has a caps lock annunciator (but no number or scroll lock annunciator). Importantly, the batteries last forever on both keyboard and mouse. ~$30.Wired, it's the Microsoft Wired Desktop 600 Keyboard and Mouse set, ~$20.Both the Logitech MK270 and the Microsoft 600 have almost identical & standard layouts so switching between them is simple. They are also reasonably efficient on desk real estate, and both fit easily into an under deka keyboard tray, which is very handy for the bench. I found that the full travel keyboards weren't always compatible with standard pull out keyboard shelves.I think both may be close to EOL now, but are still readily available new old stock on ebay.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 04:29:52 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on July 09, 2021, 10:20:50 pmAah. Microsoft 600. My dad used to have it. until the lettering on it wore off.Now I own rapoo nk1800.Both microsoft and rapoo have a problem of developing a sticky muddy layer on keys after usage of upwards of 2 hours even if you wash your hands thrice before using them and have an AC turned on.I don't know if they make them anymore, but only the LG keyboard didn't have that problem, which I used to own in the 2000s and died to a milk spill.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 12:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: Raj on July 10, 2021, 04:29:52 amNever encountered that with the Microsoft 600 keyboard or mouse despite years of daily use.I have most definitely encountered it with Rapoo mice though. It renders them useless.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 01:34:01 pm
content: K70 RGB with Cherry MX BrownSadly it won't make you a better programmer but you get a nice tactile feel and clattering sound.Go for Cherry MX Brown.... whatever you do don't go for a non-tactile switch like Cherry MX Red... they are horrible for programming.(I also have a Corsair M65 ELITE RGB Optical FPS Gaming Mouse but that is only because it looks cool)

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 09:17:42 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on July 11, 2021, 01:34:01 pmNumbers and symbols are upside down on the top row. That drives me nuts. No calculator or power button. Lots of desk real estate. It’s a “No” from me!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 09:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on July 11, 2021, 09:17:42 pmI don't fancy those RGB gaming keyboards that much either. But the K70 has a TKL version so that doesn't take too much real estate. Maybe you're one of those who can't do without a numeric keypad? I for one also thought I couldn't, until I tried, and never looked back. Full-size keyboards are just too large.I would second a WASD keyboard. No bizarre lettering, no bizarre keys, well built.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 01:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 11, 2021, 09:32:26 pmI do prefer full size keyboards: I've become very jaded with reduced key layouts, with no apparent standard in the layouts of auxiliary keys such as cursor arrows and home keys. The same applies to laptops where some keyboards become very frustrating, Toshiba and HP being the worst offenders, where it's possible to inadvertently select and delete large amounts of text thanks to their cursor control key layouts. The very worst offender for layout IME has to be the Microsoft All-in-One Media Keyboard which lacks Insert, Home and End keys rendering it useless.The K70 seems to have a large palm rest, perhaps it's removable. The problem with the palm rest is that it won't fit in your average under-desk keyboard drawer, a feature that I find very useful for lab bench work.RGB keyboards generally lead to ergonomic compromises in my experiences, the swapping of numbers and symbols on the top row is just one of those compromises. They also seem to be quite bulky in height meaning they don't fit in common under-desk drawers.Personally speaking, I find the full travel Cherry keys to be over-rated, almost being a status symbol rather than adding any real value. But it is a personal thing, YMMV, of course! Perhaps I've just become so used to limited travel keyboards so common on laptops that I'm more akin to that style. FWIW, my favourite laptop keyboard is on the LG Gram 17" which enjoys a separate keypad [and the best screen in terms of both brightness and perfect 1:1 native resolution (WQXGA 2560 x 1600 16:10 aspect ratio) I've yet to experience on a laptop].

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 01:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on July 12, 2021, 01:01:53 pmI don't use it; so I guess it was removeable.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 02:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 02, 2021, 04:02:55 pmIn the past we called those "chicklet" keyboards and they were more suitable for toys than for typing. The modern ones are no better.Quote from: DiTBho on June 02, 2021, 04:02:55 pmThere is a lot of overlap between keyboards suitable for gaming and keyboards suitable for typing. Both tend to be mechanical with good tactile feedback and perhaps macro capability. I actually prefer gaming mice for their extra buttons and macro capability.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 06:17:43 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on July 12, 2021, 01:01:53 pmWell, all decent "TKL" keyboards just have the exact same layout (ISO layout), except no numeric keypad. All other keys are exactly at the same location. So there is absolutely no learning curve. (Except getting used to entering numbers with the upper row instead of numeric keypad. Which turns out to be more comfortable, except maybe when you're entering a large quantity of numbers in a spreadsheet, for instance, that's why I have a separate keypad (but even that I can do without now...)The keyboards that have odd key location and odd key spacing are those that do not follow an ISO layout. You'll see them called "60%", or the like (the numbers vary.) They often have fewer keys than ISO TKL keyboards, and are also much smaller. I do not like those either. A few people do swear by them though, such as the Happy Hacking keyboard (https://happyhackingkb.com/), but I certainly do not.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 06:31:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 12, 2021, 06:17:43 pmYes, that happens a lot on laptops too. I'm typing on a compact Logitech MK240 right now and it's one of the better ones for that size: it just happens to sit well on top of the yoke of my flight sim machine. It lacks a power button but does have a calculator hot key combo. I'd never use it for programming though. I had to re-label almost all the keys because the typeface was too small and it's a light red on white, so lacks contrast. No caps lock, num lock or scroll lock annunciators either. For battery powered wireless keyboards, I'm slightly surprised LCD annunciators haven't caught on... probably doubles the BOM cost though!On the subject of annunciators, I did design a USB-C annunciator dongle specifically for this limitation on wireless keyboards. It includes volume up/down buttons too. It needs a slight physical redesign as it takes up too much space as a dongle, primarily dues to the tactile volume buttons. Most laptops don't have dedicated volume controls any more, so it was a feature I wanted. I might try touch instead to reduce size, but even touch pads need a certain size to work.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 09:29:12 am
content: re:K70Quote from: Howardlong on July 11, 2021, 09:17:42 pmI agree it is a bit weird how the keycaps are printed for those but in reality they are not upside down. Press !1 and you get a 1 or shifted you get a !... so that's as per usual.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 11:23:30 am
content: Since I got a buckling spring keyboard many years ago, I did not suffer from pain on my elbow joints anymore. I ended up getting a keyboard from Unicomp as well; they had a NOS Model M in Brazilian layout. It is noisy, though.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 01:02:24 pm
content: .

author: peteru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 01:33:21 pm
content: Kogan make a cheap, but surprisingly usable keyboard that I've been using for a while. It's not in the same league as my Amiga 2500UX keyboard made by Cherry, but then again, few keyboards are.The Kogan keyboard is available with blue or brown keys. I have both and have a slight preference for the brown keys.https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-tkl-rainbow-rgb-mechanical-keyboard-brown-switch/https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-tkl-rainbow-rgb-mechanical-keyboard-blue-switch/I wish the backlighting was just a uniform white or light blue light, rather than rainbow. However, the standard keyboard layout without a numpad is definitely a big win over most keyboards. Does not require any software or drivers and works with everything I tried, including Linux systems, embedded devices and TVs.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 03:54:27 pm
content: At this price, I'd be surprised if the keyswitches were genuine Cherry ones, although they use the "blue" and "brown" naming. Probably clones with a similar "feel".Note that the whole keyboard construction plays a big role in both the tactile feel and noise. You can get pretty different results with the same keyswitches depending on keyboard construction (particularly materials, rigidity, weight...) So, two different keyboards using the Cherry brown KS for instance, which are pretty popular (my keyboard has them too), can feel pretty different.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 04:26:44 pm
content: I don't understand the hype around these horrible beige, noisy relics from the 80s, almost like you're not a proper "programmer" unless you use a keyboard from an old terminal. I've got a Dell KB4021 because I got it for nothing brand new and it types just fine. As an added bonus, it doesn't drive everyone bananas - especially the other half when she's trying to sleep.I wonder if those that like the Model M also like the keys on old HP gear like the 3585A?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 05:38:44 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 12, 2021, 06:17:43 pmFor a while a couple years ago they were pushing a slightly different layout with 2 instead of 3 columns of of keys between the alpha keys and keypad to distinguish "consumer" from "business" keyboards. All of the retail stores I visited had only these consumer keyboards and I had to order online to get a "business" one with the standard layout.Quote from: mc172 on July 13, 2021, 04:26:44 pmI lot of research from IBM backed up the human factors engineering of the Selectric keyboard, and this carried over to the feel of the IBM PC keyboard. Apple borrowed some of it for the Apple III keyboard intended for business but previous to this computer keyboards where either toy chiclet keyboards, similar to the current preferred style of trash, or terminal style keyboards. Later, lower cost rubber dome keyboards replaced mechanical ones.There is no requirement for mechanical keyboards with strong tactile feedback to be noisy. If you want a silent mechanical keyboard with strong tactile feedback, they are readily available now.The joke is the current style of chiclet keyboards which evolved from thin laptop keyboards. If a laptop is thin enough, then the key travel height must be compromised which leads to the chiclet design with minimum travel and a flat instead of cupped keytop. But desktop keyboards would make them seem as bad as they are, so those have been replaced with chiclet keyboards also. I suspect the only reason this has been successful is that most of the customers these systems are intended for do not actually do significant work that requires a good keyboard.If you do not see a problem with modern keyboards, then I suspect either you are not typing much, or you never used a well designed keyboard.The same applies to screens. Glossy handheld displays have replaced matte anti-glare laptop and desktop displays even when touch screen capability is not present. I have a good laugh every time someone reviews a new stylish test instrument and keeps having trouble with the camera focusing on the reflection in the display. I do not know how the people with laptops get by in uncontrolled environments where a laptop is the only choice.

author: peteru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 06:12:05 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 13, 2021, 03:54:27 pmThey are Outemu switches. The switches are soldered and the keycaps are Cherry MX compatible. LED backlighting is fixed colours (six colours), but variable brightness (including off) and you can select from various preset animation effects or program your own key LED patterns. The LED for each key is individually addressable and some, like caps lock, also double up as state indicators.QuoteThe construction on these particular keyboard models is pretty good. Solid metal chasis with no flex or ringing, enough weight to stay in place, non slip rubber pads on the bottom, braided USB cable and two shot keycaps that are not too loose or wiggly and have just enough curvature to guide your fingertips towards the centre of each key. The key switch stems on the blue Outemu switches are just a tiny bit more rattly than the brown switches, which gives the keys a bit more play. I found that factory standard both keyboards didn't have particularly smooth key travel, but after lubricating the keyswitches, they are both performing well.Again, these are inexpensive mechanical keyboards, but given that they can be had at a price lower than much worse keyboards, they are a good deal. If you are willing to invest a bit of time to lubricate the keyswitches, they compare well with keyboards 5x the price. I managed to get the brown key model for AUD$20 delivered and a few weeks later I got the blue key model for AUD$28 delivered. They seem to get discounted regularly.They are by no means "ideal" or high end keyboards, but at the same time they are not cheap, nasty and unusable rubbish either.Going back to the original poster, these keyboards are good programming keyboards, with solid construction, mechanical switches, standard layout (but without the annoying number pad) and as affordable as rubber dome keyboards.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 08:00:56 pm
content: Backlighting you cant change the color of is just a gamers gimmik. I can see some utility in being able to select the backlight color on a per key basis if you can auto-load different color sets for different applications, but I certainly wouldn't pay much extra for the feature.I do not understand some peoples preferences - but each to their own and at least the compact chiclet keyboard afinciados will leave more previously owned full size full travel keyboards for the rest of us!Otherwise, not only are most modern keyboards absolutely crap as discussed above, but they also generally aren't particularly reliable. My main machines have 25 year old Fujitsu / ICL full sized PS/2 keyboards on them, model KPQ-E99AC-14 to be specific, which is a full travel (IIRC membrane) keyboard, with a buckling elastomer cup under the properly dished key cap, providing a low noise 'click' action, and I believe an elastomer dome under the separate actuator plunger, which cushions the keystroke as it bottoms out. They aren't IBM model M's, but they don't keep the neighbours awake either. I've been using them for over twenty years and in that time have gone through a succession of newer budget USB keyboards on my other machines. Even with far lighter use , they just don't last . . .

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 10:40:05 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 13, 2021, 05:38:44 pmThat's the point. Those were excellent keyboards, because they were made to be close in feel to keyboards for typewriters - which obviously had been refined over the years to be the most comfortable - and accurate - to type on for heavy users. They were designed for the user. As opposed to all those modern, Apple-like chiclet keyboard that are primarily designed for looks. Most are just horrible. And that's not just the mechanism. The "higher-end" keyboards have scissor keyswitches (same as on decent laptop keyboards), which can be pretty good, especially if you prefer shorter key travel. But the keycaps, usually all flat à la Apple, are absolutely atrocious from any ergonomic POV. Keycaps were curved for a good reason.But yes, someone not seeing how great those keyboards were has probably never typed on them. Or is just so used to modern keyboards that they would find the feel "bizarre".Glossy screens are a good example too. They are clearly designed just for the looks while their usability is awful due to reflections.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 03:33:58 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 13, 2021, 10:40:05 pmShorter travel and flatter kecaps are required to minimize profile which is the overriding requirement for modern stylish laptops. Expansion ports, larger batteries, and high heat dissipation capability had to go also.QuoteThe advantage of a curved keycap is that the finger can self center without touching the edge of adjacent keycaps. Even before keyboards used sculpted layouts, which never became ubiquitous, they used curved keycaps.QuoteI do not know if anybody else noticed but after Apple's new glossy white styling and glossy glare filled screens became popular is when we had movies copy that aesthetic with the new Star Trek movies being the best example I recognized. Another one I noticed is that popular eyeglass styles converged on narrow but wide about a generation after the high definition aspect ratio became popular; it took that long for the generation who grew up with wide format high definition it to start wearing glasses.Portable devices with touch screens have little choice but to use glossy screens and this has carried over to laptop and desktop computers even when they lack touch screen capability and would be much better off with anti-glare screens. A majority of people who now buy these devices are used to thumb typing on their smartphone, so hunt and peck typing on a horrid keyboard is not so bad for them.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 03:37:21 pm
content: Coming late to this (as usual), I just returned a Logitech MX Keys keyboard as unsuitable. I wanted a wireless affair, backlighting would be cool (the glare from my monitor light obscures keys that aren't backlit), full size, good feedback. The Logitech seemed to fit the bill, I lurrve the MX mice, and just about every review was positive.But now it is gone because:* keys were flat. Yes, the entire thing is on a slope but the keycaps are all the same without any profiling.* Lack of movement. Less than I am used to, and the tactile feedback was OK, but it just didn't feel right.* Lack of separation between keys. Sure, there is a gap and the keys are dished but, perhaps because of the lack of travel, it was hard to tell when your finger was just out of bound and therefore the hand placement automatically corrected. Worst case was not feeling I was stabbing the right key when using the number pad (more on this in a mo).It was a very nice keyboard indeed, and I was sorely tempted to keep it anyway, except it costs far too much. So now I am back to my trusty Dell SK-8115:https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003CO171CI realise there is a certain amount of muscle memory involved, but I think I gave the MX a fair trial. In typing this I haven't once looked at the keyboard - even when I press the wrong key I know where the right one should be and there it is. The number pad, as noted above, is the worst case example that turned me off. I never use it as a number pad, only as cursor keys. Yes, there is a set to the left, but I never use those for anything! Reason being, the number pad has the 5 in the middle and the + - * / all around, and the enter key next to it. Just a better cursor pad than the cursor keys, IME.The SK8115 is pretty damn good. A bit rattly, I suppose, but I can type pretty fast and error free with it. Coding with the MX was just a slow pain. So my plan now is to convert a spare SK8115 to wireless somehow. One option is to embed a bluetooth doobrey, but I can see battery life being annoying. Another is to gut a sacrificial wireless keyboard and wire the clever parts to the Dell keys. Could end up a mess.Just today, though, I noticed there is a TOM680 DIY keyboard. That kind of thing might work, but I expect it would be very costly and I couldn't spot a 108-key option. Anyone know of a reasonable source for that?

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 04:54:35 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 19, 2021, 03:37:21 pmMy school had sk8115. Hated it. it's sharp and digs into your wrist. Logitech mx looks like seenda keyboards which wasn't comfortable either.tom 680 looks good, I don't think gateron switches would cost a lot.Btw, apparently Adafruit is selling keyboard kits now.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 05:20:36 pm
content: QuoteAh, perhaps you have the version with a wrist rest. I hate those and partly chose the Sk8115 because it didn't come with one (and had a minimal footprint for the layout). My wrists never get close than 2" to it.QuoteThanks. Had a look but they don't seem to be doing an actual keyboard, just keys and case bottoms. Do you have a link to either a full keyboard or the gubbins to achieve one? Seems to me the sticking point would be the PCB - not rocket science but big enough to be a pain to manufacture in one-off quantities (as a DIY project).

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 05:34:19 pm
content: Found this one:https://mechboards.co.uk/shop/keyboards/vortex-tab-90m/Seems designed for me! No cursor keys but includes the keypad and associated keys.But... £170...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 08:18:07 pm
content: That non-standard layout would drive me nuts!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 09:01:41 pm
content: It's essentially the layout I use (except cursor keys rather than numbers) without the wasted space in the middle. I imagine it would take a week or so to get used to not moving my hand so much. Biggest downside might well be really really liking it and then being locked in to a one-off item that's not going to last forever.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 12:47:32 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on July 19, 2021, 08:18:07 pmEaxh to its own, but I agree with you: I need my PgUp/PgDn, Ins/Del, Home/End buttons aligned in two rows of three keys. Laptop keyboards already drive me nuts as they are (Except the Dell Latitude E6520 that I used at work; that was a very good keyboard)

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 01:07:50 am
content: If you like the IBM Model M keyboards, you'll likely love the Model F. Problem is they're ancient and the layout on many isn't standard. However, there's a guy who made an excellent reproduction of the Model F. Take a look athttps://www.modelfkeyboards.comto see what he's done. I bought one, and love the feel of the keys much better than my 35 year old Model M keyboard. However there aren't any actual F1 - F12 keys, rather they're mapped by default to the number key row, in combination with the Function modifier. You can totally customize the keyboard to any layout you want. It's not cheap, but in today's dollars, it's still considerably cheaper than the original IBM Model F. He sells parts for the keyboard as well, so if you buy some extras, it'll likely last you for many decades. The keyboard is really built like a tank (and as heavy as one), and I don't expect to ever wear out.Anyways, all keyboards I've seen come with layouts not optimized for programming. With a totally customizable keyboard though, you can add a layer for the symbols you use for the language you program in. So, for instance, the various braces/parentheses, and operator symbols which are often a stretch for your fingers on a standard keyboard, and may need to be shifted to access, can all be placed in the home row or just up/down from the home row, in easy to reach places. It takes a bit of time to overcome your muscle memory of automatically hitting the keys in those old positions, but once you get used to it, there's a lot less physical stress in coding all day. And if you want, you can customize the keyboard to a Dvorak, Colemak, or keep it as the standard QWERTY layout for the alphabet.I had one of the original IBM PC's when they first came out, then the XT, then the AT, all with the Model F keyboards, so perhaps I'm biased. But I think there never was a better feeling keyboard switch, with the possible exception of it's predecessor, the beam spring keyboards. Nor was there ever a more durable mass marketed keyboard.I also have a modern Unicomp Model M keyboard, but it isn't even as nice as the original IBM Model M, though close, and certainly not as nice as the original IBM Model F or the new Model F reproductions.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 02:15:17 am
content: QuoteThey look good, but unfortunately not my style. Also they weigh quite a bit, which I'm not keen on. The recent MX Keys was heavy and felt very solid. Really nice if you like that kind of thing, but I've got used to moving the SK8115 with my pinky finger to make fine (and coarse) adjustments to position. The keyboard goes where my fingers expect to find it rather than vice versa

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 03:36:43 am
content: Quote from: AaronLee on July 20, 2021, 01:07:50 amI've never found typing speed to be any kind of limitation on my programming speed. Maybe I just think slower than average, I dunno.The very great disadvantage of getting used to a customised layout is you can't use anyone else's computer. You'd have to carry your own KB with you everywhere you go.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 03:54:48 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 20, 2021, 03:36:43 amI'm a touch-typist, and I'd guess type fairly fast compared to the average programmer. Even if the layout is the same, going to another keyboard that has slightly different key spacing means my error rate skyrockets. So if I'm going someplace and will just use a different computer for a very limited amount of time, I'll live with it, even if the layout is totally different. Even with my new muscle memory for my custom layout, I still remember well the old standard layout. If I'll be using another computer for any length of time, I'll likely take my keyboard there, despite the fact that it's probably the heaviest modern keyboard there is. For my office and home, I have the same keyboard in both places. That's my primary concern, but for some who go out and use other computers a lot, it might be a real issue. If I was in that situation, I guess I'd get the smaller version of the keyboard I have, and in a reduced weight case, and find an extra heavy duty bag and live with lugging it around. It really means a lot to me to have the exact same layout plus spacing, plus key feel in any keyboard I'm using for an extended period of time. Anything else will slow me down considerably. I lived for decades with just a standard keyboard, but after using a fully customizable keyboard for less than a year, I don't see myself ever going back.By the way, the modern Model F that I have has a USB port, rather than the old PS/2 style interface of most Model M and F's, meaning it's usable with any modern PC without any adapter. The only thing about using it in an office is that it's quite noisy, and could be bothersome to office workers in some environments. There are ways of quieting the keyboard down though.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 01:16:31 pm
content: It took me quite some time (years) to wean myself from a model F style layout to the full model M layout 30 odd years ago: I kept the num pad in cursor mode default for a long time on the model Ms.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 02:40:42 pm
content: Does that mean you use it as a numpad now? If so, what caused you to change?

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 07:43:47 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 20, 2021, 03:36:43 amI swap Left-Control and Caps-Lock for the obvious reason and that baffles everyone who sits down at any of my computers.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 01:18:44 am
content: I still use the cursor keys on the numpad, and input numbers via the keys on the top row. If I have some task of inputting lots of numbers, then I have a layer on my keyboard where the numbers can be inputted via the numpad.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 08:48:15 am
content: Thanks. One of the problem with all these keyboards, particularly the expensive ones, is that you can't easily try them out. Dropping $355 to find the feel isn't quite right could get expensive very quickly.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 09:02:08 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 21, 2021, 08:48:15 amDepending on where you're at, there may be keyboard enthusiasts which have a get-together where they bring their keyboards and you can try them out. Or join a forum for keyboard enthusiasts and ask if there's anyone nearby the has the keyboard(s) you're interested in and if you could meet up with them to try it out. Or buy the keyboard you think suits you best, and if you don't like it, try to resell it on Ebay or such, for which you'll still lose money, but not like losing the full amount.In my opinion, for someone who types on their keyboard for a majority of each work day, and if the keyboard will last for a minimum of several years, if not decades, a few hundred dollars is cheap compared to lost productivity of a crappy keyboard. Most people don't see it that way though, and never consider how much money they're saving in productivity gains from using a great keyboard.

author: peteru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 09:44:59 am
content: While I agree that a good keyboard is definitely a very worthy purchase, a good chair should come first. My typing speed and accuracy, as well as productivity levels, attention span and energy/fatigue levels are very obviously related to the chair under me.Changing chairs has a larger impact for me than changing keyboards. (As long as it's not a laptop keyboard - nothing can improve those. Old Thinkpads probably had the most usable laptop keyboards, but even those were a poor experience when compared to a desktop keyboard.)

author: lordium
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 09:59:35 am
content: I switched to a mechanical keyboard (brown switches) simply because I tend to forget where my cup is, and usually it flies onto the keyboard. The older ones with plastic and conductive tracks inside always break immediately when in contact with liquids, but my new mechanical one has a pcb with soldermask etc on it which can handle it better. Yes I have spilled liquid in my mechanical keyboard, but I just take it apart and clean/dry it out and no problem. So even if a little more expensive, definitely worth it in the long run, and with most mechanical keyboards you can replace the switches if something happens to them.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 11:20:42 am
content: QuoteThat's another thing I like about the Dell: it has a trough under the keys so you can tip half a cup of coffee in there and it just comes out through two convenient drain holes, never going near a key switch or PCB.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 11:55:49 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 20, 2021, 02:40:42 pmYes use it as a numpad now 100% of the time.It was just a habit vs convenience thing. 30 odd years ago, there were still plenty of Model F and Model M keyboards around, so rather than having to be a polyglot, you naturally used what they had in common, so I used the numpad on the model M predominantly as a cursor pad in the same way as the Model F.Now I also used to do vacation work as a kid in high street retail banks where we used to key in cheque (check) information using number pads, so I became pretty proficient in using number pads, so there was also reason to switch from cursor mode to numpad mode on a model M when there was a lot of numeric data entry stuff to do.Once Model F keyboards went the way of the dodo, I gradually got used to the separate cursor keys and convenience of having them separated, and moved over to using the numpad 100%, but it did take some time, my muscle memory on the numpad's cursor keys was pretty ingrained, old habits die hard.I'm by no means a touch typist, but I do need the comfort factor of having keys in the right place, and with the right symbols the right way up. I mentioned earlier that some RGB keyboards have their shifted and unshifted symbols switched, particularly the top row number keys. Worse are some of the keys to the right hand side of the main cluster on UK keyboards (and presumably the same applies on US keyboards), so shifting now has the opposite effect of what's written on the keys.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 12:03:05 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 20, 2021, 07:43:47 pmAbout 25 years ago, I worked with a fella whose surname was Llewelyn. I swapped his L key top with another adjacent key once day, the look of confusion on his face when he tried to log in was priceless. What was more stunning was a new graduate we had in, who couldn't work out why pressing the L key gave a K. Same guy couldn't figure out why faxes he kept sending never arrived... he was putting the printed pages in upside down, and that had to be spelt out to him. Still, one chore he was excellent at which few enjoy was writing documentation.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 06:12:24 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 20, 2021, 07:43:47 pmI do also and have had the same experience when others use my keyboard or computer. Some keyboards used to have a switch on the back for configuring this.Another reason I like mechanical keyboards is that if necessary, I can take the keyboard apart and swap those keys by cutting the traces and soldering in jumper wires.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 06:46:48 pm
content: I'm missing something: what's obvious about swapping caps-lock and left-control?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 08:54:35 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 21, 2021, 06:46:48 pmI dunno. I guess he might find it easier to reach the caps-lock key at this position, and the rationale may be that he uses the caps-lock key much more often than the ctrl key? Just guessing though...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 08:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 21, 2021, 06:46:48 pmIt puts the control key adjacent to the A key where God intended it.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 09:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 21, 2021, 08:57:20 pmExactly.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 10:03:09 pm
content: Ah! I thought you mean you switched the key caps rather than the signal.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 01:35:04 am
content: Quote from: peteru on July 21, 2021, 09:44:59 amI totally agree about the laptop keyboards. I really despise them. Even more so, the touchpads that are in front of the keyboard that inevitably registers zillions of unwanted cursor movements because I can't avoid the palms of my hand brushing over it. And as with you, the old Thinkpads, with the red trackpoints were the most usable, and I still have mine that I take for situations where a laptop is necessary, such as for meetings in a conference room.For chairs, I'm usually fine for at least 30 minutes to an hour typing on a crappy chair. If it's going to be for a long time though, then a chair will definitely affect my work. A crappy keyboard though has an immediate detrimental affect on my throughput, but as the day goes by it likely gets better as I learn to adjust more to it. Though with either a crappy chair or keyboard, I'm likely to get frustrated eventually and then my productivity really drops like a rock. A good monitor is another thing that's mandatory for me. Trying to squint at code on a monitor that's just barely readable is no fun at all. For a mouse, I can deal with all sorts of them without much issue, provided they're reliable and don't register false clicks or such. I tend to use keyboard shortcuts for almost everything. Even for internet browsing I have a browser extension (Vimium) so I can scroll with the keyboard and hit a key to highlight a code for all the links on a page and just hit the key for that code to open the desired link, rather than take my hands off the keyboard to click on the mouse.So yeah, a great chair that makes me comfortable and keep a good posture / position, a great keyboard that's my lifeline to inputting/controlling everything, and a great monitor to see the results. Those are the three big requirements for me, plus a good environment that allows me to concentrate.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 05:15:43 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 21, 2021, 10:03:09 pmI meant that when I press the Caps Lock key the computer recognizes that the left Control key was pressed. And when I press the left Control key the computer recognizes a Caps Lock press. Unfortunately I can't swap the caps!On Windows there's a registry thing to do this. On a Mac you can go into the Keyboard Preferences, and in the Keyboard tab there's a "Modifier Keys" button that has a little table for selecting the mapping.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 09:53:22 am
content: I might be late for this thread, but I can give you a relatively unknown brand, that makes excellent keyboards, and they are without bells and whistles, just a MX style switch KB, with light color keycaps.This one is the Akko 3108 silent. Every single key where it supposed to be.This is what I use at home, replaced the Logitech somethingrather mechanical one. Choice from 3 switch types, silent, tactile and clicky. It has TKL and 60% layouts available. And some of them with BT (Which I haven't had experience with). There are also some with artisan keys, if that's your thing. Price is also reasonable.Or last resort: I also designed keyboards for fun. It usually comes with a ATMEGA32 and you can program it the way you want it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 12:18:23 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on September 01, 2021, 09:53:22 amThat sounds rather challenging - what do you use for keys etc? 3D printing?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 01:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on September 01, 2021, 12:18:23 pmYou can buy Cherry MX switches, or compatible ones, at around 0.4 USD/EA. All the MX style switches accept compatible keycaps, and there is a large selection for just keycaps, with all the colors of the rainbow. They are usually mounted into 1.5mm thick laser cut aluminium or steel plate, I replaced this with a regular PCB with the appropriate size holes. And then they are just soldered into the PCB. You also need so-called stabilizers, which are for the larger keys, these are small plastic helpers with a bent metal piece in between.There is a whole movement of people designing and building keyboards. Due to mechanical keyboard enthusiast, all the custom parts are available. The only part lacking standardization or ease of access is the case. Open source software called QMK Firmware is running on it.This is one KB that I made as a commission for someone, they came up with the layout:https://github.com/tszaboo/Ortho4Exent

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 02:28:50 pm
content: Can’t believe I missed this one.I’m using a Durgod K320 TKL with Cherry MX silent red keys. Best keyboard I have ever owned.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Durgod-Taurus-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard-Cream-White/dp/B08MDFTF49/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=HF18S6VBBSCD&dchild=1&keywords=durgod%2Bk320&qid=1630506452&sprefix=durgod%2Bk320&sr=8-1&th=1&psc=1Earlier comments about chairs are spot on. Spend on a chair. I got a second hand Herman Miller Aeron for 200 quid here which was probably the best investment I’ve made in about a decade on anything.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2021, 01:59:39 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 09, 2021, 09:36:39 pmI have a couple of the Unicomp keyboards and they are excellent but they are NOT multi-media keyboards. They simply replicate the PC-AT keyboard. You can type really fast on the Unicomp.Like these:https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/NEW_M

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 01:21:58 pm
content: 3DConnexion just sent me blurb on their new keyboard. I was kind of looking forward to this, not least because they bothered to ask their users what it should be like, and they have a reasonably good reputation from the space mouse, etc.https://3dconnexion.com/uk/product/keyboard-pro-with-numpad/As it turns out, you couldn't pay me enough to use it. The unremovable wrist wrest is a waste of space and means you can't get the keyboard to the front of your desk (and that's apart from being non-ergonomic). It can be tilted by a massive 4 degrees (hold me in case I faint). But the keys are terrible - flat laptop keys, no curved profile.Fortunately, it's no doubt priced way out of my budget.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 02:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 28, 2021, 01:21:58 pmThe wrist rest thing makes it a no-no for me too, it won't fit into an under desk keyboard drawer. They should have made it detachable.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 10:58:18 pm
content: Never a numeric keypad for me, ever. With the keyboard centered in front of me and my index fingers on the home row F and J keys, a full-size PC keyboard pushes the mouse out so far it's uncomfortable to use. If so much software didn't rely on arrow keys I would use keyboards without that whole section as well, to reduce the distance to the mouse even further. But it's not as disqualifyingly bad as with a numeric pad.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 11:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: bson on October 28, 2021, 10:58:18 pmAs I mentioned earlier in the thread, I was brought up with numeric keypads, both as a bank teller in my student vacations and during the days of the IBM XT model F. For work, I find it a handicap without one for serious work such as on most laptops, but can get by, but I have been surprised how much I use it on a 17" LG Gram lappy I bought 18 months ago. YMMV ;-)

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 06:52:51 pm
content: The best keyboard I ever used was a Sun Type 3; did a lot of development on that system.Now, I just have a crappy Dell but I used a Type M for quite a while.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 12:54:45 am
content: A fancy keyboard does not make you a programmer, and elitist programming keyboard just confirms your a moron. The only factors that matter are is it comfortable to use, ergonomic and fits your needs. I prefer having ten-keys because I spend time in apps that are more efficient with a ten-key pad, in VIM I use hjkl to move around but a lot of apps I use having arrow keys is a plus.I don't understand the trend for small keyboards that require complex key combinations to enter common text chars. They don't make you a programmer but if it makes you feel special OK I guess. My perspective is that people asking and especially posting about their programming keyboards are the type of people who crave conformation and really are copy-paste kiddies.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 01:12:21 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on November 03, 2021, 12:54:45 amOr, worse, people who could be copy=pasting but type it all by hand instead.I've never found typing speed limiting my programming speed. It's my brain that does that.The Microsoft keyboards and mice are plenty good enough, cheap enough, and available everywhere. I used them even on my M1 Mac Mini :-)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 01:29:16 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on November 03, 2021, 01:12:21 amMicrosoft peripherals are usually at least half decent, and often good to excellent.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 08:41:28 am
content: I am having a vague urge to make my own keyboard since one that suits perfectly either doesn't exist or costs a medium fortune. A lot of this (the urge) is down to the availability of resources for keyboard hackers, from keycaps through layout generators, but one of the things I would want it to be is wireless.Coming at this from scratch I would think that the link between keyboard and dongle would be a custom protocol, with the USB handling of keycodes and stuff entirely within the dongle. The keyboard wants to be very low powered, which would normally suggest that power is only applied when a key is pressed, but it seems to me that doing it that way would lead to perceptible delays since the Tx (and whatever is encoding stuff) needs to wake up before anything is sent. Obviously, they could be left 'warm' but maybe that would drain the battery quite quickly.I had the opportunity to try a Logitech MX keyboard and the battery in that lasted a reasonable time (despite having backlit keys!) and there was no delay that I noticed when playing Wreckfest or Trackmania. So it can be done. Anyone got any thoughts on this?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 11:14:32 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on November 03, 2021, 12:54:45 amI didn't understand it either. Talked to some people about it, it is up to ergonomics. If you have a keyboard witch is 40% (see below) a lot of keys are missing, and you need to keep the combinations in head. They explained that they have used vim for a long time, so using characters to move the cursor is second nature. And they can place their fingers on the middle row, and there is no hand movement is necessary for typing.Same for layouts, like Ergodox, it is about reducing fatique. That being said, I use a 100% keyboard, because that's what Im used to, and I use numbers.Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 03, 2021, 08:41:28 amMaking your own keyboard will for sure cost more than something from the store. I say this from experience. That being said, I enjoy it as a hobby. most custom boards are built around the QMK firmware, which started with Atmega32 and wireless is afterthought. it has the most support, like layout generators and lot of hardware for it.For wireless, I would go with the ZMK :https://zmk.devThey seem to have a power profiler on the website. I put in a 2400mAh battery size, that is a typical 18650, and resulted ~1 year battery life.I haven't tried the ZMK yet.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 11:48:47 am
content: QuoteAh! Thank youQuoteYes, I thought it might. I priced up a JLCPCB and I think that's reasonable - the laser-cut ally plate would be the killer price though. And that assumes it's right first time and doesn't need a respin or several. OTOH, since it would be paid in installments perhaps the extortionate cost wouldn't be noticed so readily

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 12:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 03, 2021, 11:48:47 amFYI, JLCPCB charged me 20 EUR (if I recall) extra compared to their normal price for a plate. For "excessive milling".The PCB was regular price.I don't know what sort of layout you want to make, but probably the easiest is to start with an existing keyboard case, which comes with a plate. Keys on regular keyboard are supposed to be in a certain row, so you cannot replace a Q with a Z for example, because the angle of it is different. Unless you go with a DSA profile (there are others), where all the keys have the same shape. So there are some restrictions, and some ways around it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2021, 01:17:08 pm
content: QuoteSimilar to this one:98-key layoutBut ISO, so the left shift is shorter and the return key is two high instead of 2 across.QuoteYes, I figured the case would be the hardest so going with an existing one would make sense. In fact, going with existing anything where they exist is fine by me - got plenty of other projects to spend time on!