How did you survive prior to the internet making information easy to find? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 06:27:42 am
content: I'm about to start an ESP32 project and today I saw someone on a forum mention that the GPIO pin toggle speed was way slower than the clock speed would suggest. I checked the ESP32 sitting on my desk and two minutes later I was looking at this posthttps://www.esp32.com/viewtopic.php?t=1595which confirmed the behavior.So how did you find out about this kind of stuff prior to internet making information searchable?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 07:34:53 am
content: Don't forget about datasheets that you could request from suppliers and electronics fairs to look around for new technology.Or libraries with books for that matter or the popular electronics magazines.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 08:04:42 am
content: At first, we survived with printed on paper info: books, databooks (a book of datasheets), magazines.I remember the whole floor used to be filled with all kinds of books and magazines, all opened at a given page or article that was related to whatever project was happening at the moment. It was the equivalent of a web browsers with many open tabs.That was not very efficient, so we invented the Internet.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 08:48:47 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2022, 08:04:42 amAnd a multiple monitor setup, so you can spread out the pages on your screens instead of having to swap between tabs

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 09:06:36 am
content: Quote from: evb149 on June 19, 2022, 07:06:29 amThat all camedecadeslater.Magazines, a few datasheets and application notes from companies sent by snailmail, books and textbooks, and in corporate settings "videos" on 16mm film.With such little information available, the key skill was to repeatedly re-read anything you could get your hands on, in order to glean as much data as possible. That was valuable, since it encouragedthinking, andunderstandingof causes and consequences.Today theoppositeskill is required:rapidlydetermining what toignore. There's vast amounts of superficial and inaccurate dross in people's blogs and yootoob vids.Most videos are a waste of time: mere talking heads (much slower than reading), there are too many ums and ahs and you knows, and too much "I unboxed it plugged it in and it worked therefore it is good look at me and give me advertising revenue".Go back and look at some of the corporate videos from before the 80s. They tend to be notably concise and information dense: they were carefullyplannedbecause creation, manufacturing, distribution and viewing were difficult. A good example is the Pace "Basic Soldering Lessons 1 - 9" videos:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL926EC0F1F93C1837

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 12:26:09 pm
content: Still got a good chunk of Motorola databooks, amongst others, that I got from a local supplier, as they got new ones, and I got the old ones free. Same for National databooks, and they came in useful over the years, having obscure semiconductors in them that were obsolete, and nothing known these days about them. Then the poorly printed transistor, diode and IC shortform data books that held shortform info about 15000 transistors, so you could look up what that part that failed was, and what was a substitute that likely would work in place of it, that you could get locally.When you sent off for a catalogue from the UK, and would actually get it, then go get that international bank draft to post to them, then the 3 month wait for the delivery. Yes I ordered from Maplin UK, to South Africa, and still havce the chime clock I bought as movement and chime IC from them, still working 30 years later on. Did however this week upgrade the power supply for the chime, it eats AA batteries, so in went a 10Ah lithium pouch cell from a power bank with junk connections that never worked, along with a battery management board, and the lowest power 3V3 regulator I could find. Should only need charging next year, a much better proposition than AA cells that last 3 months. Clock itself goes 2 years on a single AA cell, no worry there, and making a battery eliminator for it is a pain, as you need to get a very precise 1V3-1V4 to get timekeeping into the sweet spot for accuracy long term.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 12:52:20 pm
content: Databooks were the best in those days.And the suppliers had outside reps with knowledge.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 03:14:53 pm
content: How did we manage beford Sir Tim put the ht into the tp? We "pulled the drawings". An expression I guess that goes back to when engineering drawings lived in 6x4ft drawer racks(?). Or we "checked the specs."It was normal for engineers to spend hours in the technical library department searching for some coefficient in some material of some part that had a non standard tolerance. It was a case of, if you did not know how to find out then, you found out, how to find out. Now, we just "click on the PDF".Today I fixed my long used and abused orbital sander. The yellowed 1980s instruction manual which clearly stipulates no user servicable parts inside, has an exploded diagram and parts list! Although the telephone helpline number might be 3 decades dead, no internet connection was necessary to figure out what to do.The availability of datasheets online is a HUGE leap forwards. No need to order poor quality photocopies from RS or Maplin, at 25 pence a page. This said, there is a new generation that has no idea how lucky they are. And they still have NO idea how to use this hypertext internet thing. Seriously kids, Google for it and then RTFM.pdf

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 03:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on June 19, 2022, 03:14:53 pmOr, usenet, or in a few cases, used FTP.FTP still works in browsers, but it will soon be removedUsenet is almost, but not quite, dead.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 05:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 19, 2022, 03:20:18 pmReal old skool stuff. Newsgroups, Archie, Gopher and Finger. Using Kermit over a blistering Kbps business grade connection to FTP from a BBS. Happy days.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 05:39:18 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on June 19, 2022, 05:18:19 pmOld skool is before the internet existed, and before the Altair 8080 existed. Others will debate those specific events, of course.Examples:https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/a-40-year-old-hack-disinterred/which is nearer to 50 years nowhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/vintage-hacking-or-the-past-is-a-foreign-country-they-do-things-differently-there/Makes me wonder why we ever had enough patience to build anything. The lack of distractions probably helped. No doubt in 50 years time my kids will be saying something similar about biohacking

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 06:28:59 pm
content: What do you mean by "survived" ? We thrived, not survived, there was plenty of books and magazines and old electronics to dismantle and use parts from. It was Much more exciting time in terms of speed of development, nothing close as it is now. And we had real grey beard mentors, not that youtybe shit where everyone is an expert.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 06:41:48 pm
content: Yup, that was mostly magazines, datasheets and books. Then depending on the exact period, you would have probably experienced slightly different things.I personally never had access to BBS when I grew up. I started getting interested in electronics pretty early on, and so that was magazines, books, starting with kits, and datasheets when I could get ahold of them. Sometimes that meant writing to manufacturers asking for some datasheets, and if you were lucky, they would send you some. (I was still a kid/teen at this point, so that needed to pull off some trickery.)Then at uni we had access to Internet (but there wasn't nearly as much information as there is now, the web was just merely starting, so that was mostly access to some FTPs, newsgroups, and IRC.) And when I graduated, Internet started to become accessible for private persons so I got a personal access about when I started working. So in my case, the pre-Internet era was mostly when I was learning electronics as a hobby as a kid and teenager.Yes, these days, getting information has become so easy. As others have said, I'm not sure younger people realize how easy they have it now.I think having to put more effort to do anything was giving us a better sense of reward when we managed to be successful.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 07:08:15 pm
content: it took me decades....5 yrs college 3 yrs grad school, reading books, magazines and learning on the job.HARD WORK!j

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 07:10:56 pm
content: .

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 07:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 19, 2022, 06:28:59 pmThat is what a lot of us are here on EEVBlog, grey beard mentors, except for the beard which I don't have once a weekIt is somewhat grey though at the end of the week.And on youtube well I guess you are using irony, cause lets face it there is a lot of crap on youtube and the makers don't give a toss as long as it makes money

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 07:34:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 19, 2022, 09:06:36 amExactly this. People actually read the documentation instead of trying to get the quick fix for their problem. This fostered an environment of contemplation of a problem and actual discussions that led to a lot of knowledge passing among people.Part of my work is to create documentation for specific products and it amazes me how little people read these days, even with the help of easy reading fonts, hyperlinks to glossary, other relevant topics, graphics, photos, etc.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 07:58:58 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 19, 2022, 07:34:46 pmAgree 100%.When the WWW was in it's infancy, I had a library of Wrox Press computer books which, I had to read cover to cover as, there was no 'Gandalf' teaching us the quirks of the LAMP haystack. Everyone had to figure it out the hard way. Thankfully, there weregoaty beardscreating detailed examples. In software development, I've heard people bleat that things are "too difficult". Obviously searching Google is not for stupid lazy persons.Before we became the pixelation nation, I read quite a few Wireless Worlds, Practical Electronics and ETIs. They are a facinating read even today, especially the adverts for hardware that's now vintage. Looking back from 2060, kids of today will have no such joy. Unless printed out, their digital world will have evaporated faster than you can say zip drive.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 08:17:51 pm
content: The "quick fix" attitude can also be seen in software using debuggers.Back then, unless you had access to expensive tools, you just couldn't fire up a debugger, set up a few breakpoints and step away. You actually had to observe behavior, analyze the code and deduce what could be wrong, and proceed methodically from there. That may have taken a little longer at first, but would maximize the chances that you would actually *understand* the root of the problem instead of just adding a quick patch and move on until the bug reared its ugly head again in some other form.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 09:20:29 pm
content: It helped a lot that devices were simpler back then...QuoteI dunno. 8080 has breakpoint and single-step capabilities, along with many of the other micro, mini, and mainframe computers back through the 70s.OTOH, there were those IBM Mainframe Dump Files.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2022, 09:41:29 pm
content: "simpler devices"See the 1942 unbreakable speech scrambler SIGSALY, my IEEE SPECTRUM article72 ADC, 384 thyratrons, 30 kw power staffing 15 techniciens....Jon

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 12:36:26 am
content: My recollection, circa 1988, we sat / stood around one screen or another, to debug some game machine code, and there, way over in corner, some client had running;A MODEM running dial-up mode, at 4800 baud. Most of us (Engineers) had little idea, of that 'outside world'. An almost complete disconnect, between that remote connecting thing, and OUR devices right there, running at 'blistering' multiple Mhz, (like 2.2 Mhz).

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 01:46:54 am
content: I'm only 60, so I really don't remember a time before internet, at least in my working life.Before university was just terrible. I grew up on a dairy farm half an hour outside a small city of maybe 30,000. I read everything the city library had about electronics and computers but most of it was from the 1950s and 1960s and there wasn't much (this is in the late 70s), especially about programming.The best resource I could find was magazines: Electronics Australia and Electronics Today International (also out of Australia). Wireless World (UK) or BYTE (USA) were also sometimes available on newsstands, but were very expensive.These magazines were sometimes publishing things such as designs for a board using a SC/MP or 2650 microprocessors (which were both pretty horrid) and such articles included some assembly language program listings. 6502 wasn't really on the radar yet, though it was starting to appear in commercial machines (Apple, Pet). The US magazines were more about very expensive S100 machines using 8080 and then z80.One of the teachers at my high school had been working for a computer company overseas before becoming (returning?) to teaching. He started an electronics club in the school. He had thick books of datasheets for things like TTL from TI. I made a few small things using 7400-series and 555s and 741 op-amps. We were probably very lucky to have this.When I went to university I deliberately chose a smaller university that had interactive computing available using PDP-11s and terminals (and a VAX on order). The larger universities had B6700 mainframes that could be accessed (at least by students) only via submitting decks of punched cards.Apart from writing my own projects on the DEC machines (far in excess of what we were taught in class .. e.g. in my first month at university I got tired of the line editor on the PDP 11/34 and wrote my own full-screen editor ... at the start of 2nd year we were writing assembly language for Rockwell AIM65 6502 boards but we only had access to the lab a few hours a week ... so in an evening I wrote a 6502 emulator on the VAX) ... the main useful thing about university was the library, and specifically the basement full of things such as CACM and Sigplan. I spent days every week in that basement reading all the historical (and current) issues.Internet still didn't exit then (1981-1984), at least in New Zealand.In 1985 I got a job as the only in-house programmer in a stockbroking company. They had a DG MV10000 supermini that was mostly running standard commercial software. The lack of access to information after leaving university (and going to a different city) was just awful. I quickly made some contacts at the local university who could help by borrowing or photocopying articles or books for me.AND THEN!!! In 1986 BYTE Magazine announced they were starting a BBS service, and it would be accessible via X.25. My employer already had a PC with a modem and an account for X.25 (via X.28 dial-in to a PAD) in order to access library and some commercial financial data resources. I persuaded them it would be worth while me also using that to access BIX. (and it really was)Then in 1989 a local Wellington BBS system got a connection to internet. At first it was just uucp so was basically internet email and usenet, but that was huge. You could also do things such as ftp files via email. Within a year they got full time connection, so I could also use them to telnet to BIX (saving many hundreds of dollars a month -- sometimes thousands, I think -- instead of using X.25)In the late 80s I think BIX was a better resource than internet, as internet was mostly academics, while BIX had people working in industry, and as also used as a support forum by various companies, ranging from for example Rich Siegel from THINK/Symantec, to Bjarne Stroustrup at AT&T and Greg Comeau of Comeau Computing (first commercial vendor of C++ cfront) when I was using Apple cfront-based MPW C++. Also Walter Bright of Zortech (first native C++ compiler, later developed the D language). And lots of others, in many fields.As the 90s rolled on and more people and companies got on internet BIX faded away.But basically, I've had electronic access to internet or something like it for so far 36 of my 37 years working.

author: betocool
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 01:16:16 am
content: I got private internet access during my 2nd year at Uni, but I've had Internet at Uni one year prior, not that I used it much. I didn't really get into C or programming until much later.I did use a lot of the Internet in 2002 for my thesis, working on a Xilinx Dev Kit. The Digital Systems Head of Department had a kit and didn't really know what to do with it, so he gave it to me and says "Tell me what it can do and how, make something flashy". I would have been utterly lost without Internet.Ever since then, my work experience has been with available information online, and while there is TONS of crap out there, most of the time someone has already had the same problem. Usually it's a very specific thing within a bigger scope, which is what you're trying to solve. And sometimes you find a few jewels where the information is laid out beautifully and support by the community is there. Fortunately, I find the amount of information has also gotten better.I do remember working on a TI DSP in 2002, and at the time the lab had the complete datasheet as a book. It came with the dev kit when bought as an educational package. Never seen that since.Hats off to all the pre-Internet engineers man, I cannot imagine how that would have been, I confess I'd be utterly lost.Cheers,Alberto

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 04:50:40 am
content: Quote from: betocool on June 21, 2022, 01:16:16 amYou did not know any better and used the tools you had at hand. Over time a new tool came available and that was the internet, and indeed it is very handy, but also requires new skills. These are needed to filter what information is available. What is real and what is fake, what is useful and what is not, etc. some can't tell the difference.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 06:59:43 am
content: There was a lot of shared knowledge even before Internet.There were magazines and newsletters and bugfix information shipped on paper, tape, and other media.Shucks, you could go to a trade show and actually learn stuff, or get sent to a vendor for three weeks of classes on obscure internals issues. Expensive, perhaps, but so was the hardware, and the facility, and etc...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 07:42:04 am
content: Quote from: westfw on June 21, 2022, 06:59:43 amYou are quite right there. Stuff was expensive, but for schools and foundations like STEIM there were special offers. I got to work with Xilinx FPGA's and receive training for it for a reduced price. Brought that knowledge with me to another company and they had to pay the full price for the software. A bit of a win win situation for Xilinx.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 08:15:35 am
content: Another memory from the before-Internet era electronics (there was also no Internet shopping, doh!), is that we were going to brick and mortar shops. There were shops with electronic components, just like there are groceries today.The funny thing is we were sometimes visiting the shop just to see what's new, or drooling at the windows as kids, for parts we couldn't afford. A side effect of this was that whenever you go to buy a transistor or something, there were always somebody just hanging around looking at the parts and eager to advice others what to buy, or knowing by heart the VCBO, or which transistor would be better to do this and that, and so on.It was almost like a forum, but in person, and with random strangers you could talk to, by voice.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 10:12:31 am
content: .

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2022, 01:14:22 pm
content: It would be nice to have a few things on paper, I don't have a printer. If I lost the internet, I have a bunch of datasheets, and course notes/books in pdf's.So if I loose the internet and my disk drives, then I'll be up a creek. I'd have to write down all the info I could think of, and go to the library to use their internet, and that trip would take 1/2 a day.If their was no internet, then I'd be lost without forums and google. I'd have to get a bunch of part catalogues, but I should get a couple anyways.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 07:40:42 am
content: More than 35 years ago I used to climb over the boundary wall, slipped into the bins of local companies, and dug in the paper waste ...... found a lot of interesting documentation, abandoned datasheet and books(not sure if climbing over the boundary wall was/is legal, anyway)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 07:55:18 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 24, 2022, 07:40:42 amTrespassing isnotillegal in the UK. If you are caught trespassing you could be liable for damage or theft.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 09:54:52 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 24, 2022, 07:55:18 amUmm, the funny is I never had to carry shears to cut nets or padlocks, I just climbed over a wall, and found bins full of paper, a lot of which paper for ribbon printers, but also abandoned books, notes, and projects, no one who used to shred paper-documents at the time.The luckiest found: two DTACK copies, one a bit yellowish and a little wrinkled from humidity, the other in mint condition thanks to a protective plastic bag, it was my luckiest day

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 10:28:06 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 24, 2022, 09:54:52 amYou could probably have been done for theft. If you had taken them from a bin on the street, you could lso have been done, but I'm not sure whether that would have been from the company or from the council.I once lived in a vey affluent area, and there were riches in jumble sales and at the council tip. After I moved away I believe the council stopped people taking stuff from the tip, and that people were accosted while queueing to get in by people wanting to know what they were dumping and whether they could take it!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 11:07:59 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 19, 2022, 09:06:36 amIndeed, that’s true as a generalization nowadays. In the past, the challenge when researchinganythingwas discovering information and where to find it. Research skills meant knowing how to locate resources.Nowadays, research skills are a) knowing how to choose search terms carefully to tease out relevant information, and b) knowing how toquicklyidentify what is relevant, high quality information and what is crap.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2022, 11:35:09 am
content: My first job pre-internet, was programming Fortran on VAX-VMS. We had the complete VMS documentation set in a closet that covered one wall of the office. My only option was to pore over documentation and find my own answer. I miss those days of having real, printed documentation.

author: tepalia02
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 09:59:22 am
content: Well, when there was no internet, there was no ESP32 eitherYeah, it's very true that before the internet was this much available, Engineers and hobbyists had to work really harder. Hobbyists were mostly dependent on electronics project books. Engineers had to keep their textbooks handy all the time.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 11:51:40 am
content: Quote from: tepalia02 on June 27, 2022, 09:59:22 amBefore the internet was before highly-integrated specialised devices, in general. Everything was built using standard fairly simple parts. And when there was a highly integrated device it was used unchanged for a long long time. I mean ... Apple was selling computers using a 1 MHz 6502 from April 1976 (Apple I) until November 1993 (Apple IIe) though they did change from NMOS 6502 to CMOS 65C02 (with a few extra instructions) in March 1985.But ... 17 1/2 years selling essentially the same computer with unchanging performance. It's completely unthinkable today. Just the price was continually reduced (at least in inflation-adjusted terms) especially taking into account the RAM and peripherals that came standard at the end vs being expensive add-ons at the start.The Z80 had a similarly long run, from the TRS-80 in August 1977, to the ZX80 in 1980 to the ZX Spectrum finally discontinued in 1992.And you can still today buy both CPUs. They are still being made, even in the traditional 0.1" DIP40 packages.So the main point ... back before the internet, technology wasn't changing all that fast, so it wasn't hard to keep up. Even if you got your news and datasheets three or six months late, it didn't matter much.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 12:07:04 pm
content: For me it was mostly printed materials, i.e. books and journals/magazines. All of the R&D companies I worked for and/or visited had libraries full of physical books and other publications. In some cases you could find what you were looking for by visiting the local university library as well. If you were a serious researcher or academic, it behooved you to start amassing your own library of technical books -- I bought lots of books simply because I thought I might need them "someday".There was also quite a bit of "tribal knowledge" -- if you knew who to ask, they often could point you towards the information you needed.(For context: I learned to type on a manual Smith Corona typewriter and wrote my first thesis on a typewriter as well.)

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 12:16:12 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 19, 2022, 09:06:36 amThank you!This pretty much describes exactly my thoughts when it comes to producing videos and other content.I also believe the same could be said about writing books, articles, etc. Without backspace, cut-and-paste, etc., changes often required you to re-type the entire document (!), so you had to carefully plan, outline, organize, etc. before you ever started hitting keys.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 12:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on June 19, 2022, 06:27:42 amLet's imagine I was sent back to 1970, in a time-machine, with no money, or anything, except basic clothing. Let's also assume I can keep my knowledge of electronics and stuff, but have to forget any specific datasheets I may remember or pin-outs.A library of that era (or borrow from friends/clubs/educational-establishments), would probably/potentially have electronics books and magazines, for reference. One can then take notes (for free), on paper. E.g. The TTL 7400's Pin out.You can do odd-jobs, or pocket-money or something, and get some £cash.From various places, shops and/or mail-order, you can get, perhaps priced in shillings. Grab bags of miscellaneous, transistors, diodes, resistors, capacitors, integrated circuits, logic ICs, etc.If you are handy with an analogue meter, you can identify the lead connections on a transistor (resistance mode of meter, there are techniques for doing it, fairly quickly), measure its Hfe, and estimate its capabilities, from the size of its package (power/current handling of transistors/diodes, power rating of resistors, capacitors often have their capabilities, printed on them).Logic ICs, can be hand datasheet'ed. I.e. Let's say it is the era of TTL logic, which 1970 mostly was (there was still other types such as DTL, RTL etc). The power was usually 5V+ on the highest number pin, and ground for the diagonally opposing pin e.g. Pin 7 GND and pin 14 +5V, on a 14 pin DIL.By probing (multi-meter or logic-probe or even just a resistor plus LED (bit early for them, to be widely available), or small filament lamp, buffered by a transistor.Then you can try out the connections, as the outputs will be somewhat obvious, the rest are inputs (ignoring power connections), and assume it is either AND/OR/NAND/NOR/XOR/INVERTERS, as an initial guess. It is a bit like tying your tie. I could fairly easily do it, but describing how to do it, would be a real pain. You just go through and experiment for a few minutes, and somewhat rapidly, decide what it is.More complicated logic, such as decoders/flip-flops, would be much harder to determine.Suppliers, especially in later decades, would be happy (sometimes free, sometimes perhaps 10 pence or more, per sheet, photocopies of the applicable datasheets).Also, there were books, with lots of transistor specifications in them (usually big tables), from a wide range of manufacturers. Typically called something like, transistor substitution guides. (Towers?, was a popular one).In the olddays, there were lots of shops, selling electronic items (components), or sold many items, but included a section with electronic items (transistors/resistors etc). It was quite possible that the shop-keeper, or one of their assistants, or even (at the right time), a knowledgeable customer. Might be able to help with your electronics questions.Some (quite a few) items, such as TVs, Radios, etc. Actually had the schematic, inside the case. Some items instructions came with a schematic. Some components when bought, actually included a paper leaflet, with datasheet like details, printed on it. Especially (needed to request a free datasheet with purchase) Radio-spares (now known as RS), Maplins (who were happy to give free datasheets on request, if I remember correctly, also their earlier catalogs, had a lot of datasheet pin out and other information in it). Tandy (also known as radio shack, in some other countries), also typically/sometimes had datasheets, inside the IC packet.Some of the better electronics kits (e.g. Heathkit), would come with decent schematics, and component details (pictures/outlines rather than datasheets as such).EDIT: In later years (before the internet), if you were important enough (i.e. suitable businesses, not individual hobbyists), you could get the distributors/suppliers/manufacturers, to fax through their datasheets. Or post you the databooks, if significant enough of a customer, for them to justify doing that.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 12:26:44 pm
content: Quote from: evb149 on June 19, 2022, 02:36:43 pmI started adding "chapters" to the R&S Test and Measurement Fundamentals videos for exactly that reason - makes it easier to "search" the video for things that are interesting.https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8And in some cases, I also create whitepaper versions of the videos for people who prefer to read, e.g.andhttps://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/analyzers/signal-spectrum-analyzers/white-paper-understanding-phase-noise-fundamentals-register_255143.htmlare essentially the same content, just in different formats.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 06:37:20 pm
content: QuoteIndeed. This is a sample from my library at that time - the TTL Data Book was a must for everyone and an excellent example of what you could get, but all of them were very good. OTOH, this is all you got - no googling for examples or asking on some web forum.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 07:52:16 pm
content: Here is a small sample of what I still have in my cupboardThere are databooks, school text books, microprocessor specific books, some by Elektuur (Elektor) an electronics magazine, compiler manuals, product manuals of Brutech, etc.This is the user manual of a terminal made by Brutech.It also contains schematics.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2022, 04:23:27 pm
content: In addition to new products and project articles, most electronic magazines had great adverts for cheap surplus gear - a great supply resource pre-internet which allowed learning through experimentation.I always loved Bob Pease's "What's all this ..., anyhow" articles - I learned a lot of theory reading that.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 04:22:53 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 27, 2022, 11:51:40 amAs a corollary, because searching for things was more difficult, and the community of wise greybeards were more difficult to consult, individual engineers were more likely to use what they already knew.If you know the 8051, learned the 8051 quirks, and had all the right resources in hand for 8051 projects, it would take quite a push to move away from an 8051 microcontroller. Of course, there are still 8051 fanboys today, probably all minted in the 1980s.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 06:05:12 am
content: As a youngster I'd just walk into a university library and find things to read. I will still do this today when travelling just to poke around and see what they have to offer. When I worked at DSE in the 90s we had to shrink-wrap the circuit library books, and in one store put them behind glass - people were just ripping pages out.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 09:56:39 am
content: Quote from: johnboxall on June 29, 2022, 06:05:12 am"Just"The nearest was 200 km away, and that city a once or twice a year trip. Hell, even today it's probably a twice a year trip for me (not counting going only to its airport, or passing through to somewhere else without stopping)

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 12:37:13 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 29, 2022, 09:56:39 amPretty like my new Estonian friend AniaAnia-who? A blonde girl with weird strands of purple hair, met at the last hacking camping ... definitely unusual look for an Estonian (I mean blond is a usual color there, but not with purple strands of hair), she told that she doesn't live near Tallinn, so before moving to a very small rented apartment near the capital, she had to travel miles and miles just to read something good.Now she enjoys everything all the Taltech (Tallinn University Technology) can offer her

author: todorp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 01:23:22 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 29, 2022, 12:37:13 pmAre you aware Estonia is a very small country?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 05:20:57 pm
content: Quote from: todorp on June 29, 2022, 01:23:22 pmSure, my euphemismEstonia, last time I traveled fromRakveretoTallinn, it was 110Km (68 miles), and fromTallinnto Karksi-Nuia, it was 230Km (143 miles).Italy, last time I traveled from Milan to Bologna, it was 220Km, while from Milan to Rome, it was 570Km.Just, except Tallinn, Similar to Finland and Sweden, Estonia's population density is one of Europe's lowest, something like 30 per Km^2, so when you travel, your perception of distances becomes greater.

author: rooppoorali
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 01:24:22 pm
content: I started in 2010. At that time there was the internet. But contents were not available like it is now. I had to do a Microcontroller course. Had to spend around 3 hours in class 3 or 4 days a week for 2 months.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 03:18:40 pm
content: Electronics, specially digital stuff, weren't nearly as complex as today (TTL, CMOS, relatively simple CPUs) so with few books you were ok.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 04:36:57 pm
content: Yes exactly.I am disposing of a load of data books and reading some of the manuals on CPUs I used to program (Z180 Z280 H8 - the list is below) they are just relatively little books. Today's stuff is 10x more complex, although obviously a lot of the principles continue to be useful.The Big Negative of online publication is thatbecauseit is so easy, there is a lot of dross around. This isn't just in programming (with perhaps 90% of the stuff on Stackexchange etc being of no use) but in other fields. If you are a pilot then you will know about the vast increase in notams published, where every d1ckhead who can write a sentence, sort of, is publishing notams for airports about mostly trivia. One learns to speed read...The less savoury aspect isclickbait. I have just spent a few hours learning how to do some very simple stuff with javascript embedded in page html. I reckon half of the examples on websites do not work. Many of these are set up in huge fonts, probably by someone who knew about website design but nothing about the topic.Then you get so many youtube videos. I hate these. I have had to watch quite a few and many of them are useless. The narrative is done by someone whose English is so poor I can't work it out. This is true for some ST videos!The one clear positive of the internet is that one does not need data books and the shelf space can be used for other stuff - like CP/M 2.2 manuals which you have for sale in the vintage computer section of Ebay

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 07:44:37 pm
content: Those are sensible points.When I came back to embedded systems after 20 years, I was both pleased how quickly I got back to where I had been, and horrified at how little had changed (except smaller, cheaper, faster). In other words the fundamentals had not changed.Unfortunately gurgle deliberately de-emphasises unchanging fundamentals in favour of transient twittering.Stack exchange is OK if you want to know which button to use to floggle the squirdle and turn it green. Understanding -not so much.Very few videos are worth the time spent to see if they might be worth watching. Easy to ignore.A key difference between when I was growing up and my daughter was growing up isI had to know how tofindinformation, and then togleaneverything possible from that little which I foundmy daughter has to learn how to quickly decide what toignore, so that she can concentrate on the small proportion that is usefulAnd in that vein, videos are prime candidates for ignoring.The web is great forsearching, but less good forserendipitousbrowsing. (Despite my using a browser right now!)

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 06:00:26 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on June 29, 2022, 04:22:53 amMy senior design project at university was based on the 87C51. That should give you an idea of the timeframe.I just put an EFM8UB1 into a design.Fanboy? Maybe.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 08:06:41 am
content: RS had a set of large folders with a data library on many of the chips they supplied.Al of manufacturers would send you samples and datasheets.

author: wek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:44:05 am
content: The real question is, how do we survive internet.JW

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 11:00:13 am
content: Being far from everything was different.Standard components were easy, even here some importers offered almost free databooks but final products were other thing.If product itself didn't include enough information, like schematics inside the case, the situation became very difficult if the case was more than general user stuff.So when you had some occasional info at hand you knew its value, like jumpers and DIP switches of the machine, pocketbook was one of those things, other one was a driver disk and well known example of it is NE2000 network adapter.And if you were at the customer you better ask and check their never used part of their office storage, missing manuals had probably been there all these years, including original plastic bag with warning flips and travel locks.I guess that original plastic bag is still there and now it includes original driver and manual CDs.Service info was generally as it is now, if local service organization was established free info was limited.Other end was that nobody was blocking anything because nobody knew anything, maybe importer was just a bit lazy, later even manufacturer was a bit unknown.Rebadging was one thing but then Taiwan and Korea started appearing with their never-heard-of brands, also some lesser known from Japan.Luckily computer internals were pretty standard and consumers learned pretty fast that known brand is better, even if a bit pricier.For computers USB and Plug'n'Pray became very helpful, finally when praying was less necessary.Then net before Google was many times much better than it is today.Now much more info is available but, like it is said, SNR is occasionally very bad.It's everyday more clear that Google is actually not a search engine, maybe it used to be so but not anymore.So finally circle is closing, regular stuff is easy and the rest are what they are.Though no idea if it's really just Google, maybe those old pages just are not there anymore.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 04:52:20 pm
content: Google doesn't generally keep old stuff. It trawls the net and if some info (for which it kept the URL where it found it) is no longer there, it removes it from its cache. So as websites die, their content is lost. Google is not an archive; other websites have to perform that function.One of the really annoying things is that distis are totally clueless today. I don't think any of the main ones can quote you for a 4k7 0805 1% resistor. They need a P/N, but there are many P/Ns, at a vast range of prices.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 11:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 31, 2022, 04:52:20 pmI don't object to that practice.I do object to gurgle "hiding in plain sight" good solid information that has not needed to be changed recently, and emphasising new (and transient) chit-chat. I know that is better for gurgle's profit, but it is a change for the worse.The original gurgle page rank emphasised information that had many pages pointing to it, on the grounds that implied that many people thought it was worthy information. That "science citation index" type facillity was invaluable.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 05:04:14 am
content: There are a few old sources of info that haven't been mentioned yet.1. Reader Service Cards.Back in the days before the Internet in any form, you just wander up to your favorite magazine stand and pick up either a hobbyist or professional electronics magazine. Bound into the back of the magazine was a postcard. Tear it out, fill in your name and mailing address, then start reading the magazine. At the bottom of every ad there was a note that said something like "Circle Reader Service Card #XXX for more info". Circle the numbers that interested you, mail the card, and wait. After a while, goodies would start trickling in to your mailbox. Databooks, app notes, even free samples. It wasn't fast, but it worked.2. The D.A.T.A. series of databooksD.A.T.A. == Derivation And Tabulation Associates. Yeah, I know. That's so bad. They should be ashamed of themselves. The D.A.T.A. books were multi-vendor catalogs divided up into catagories. i.e. transistors, linear ICs, digital ICs, etc. But they were professional-level items that were hideously expensive.3. EEM CatalogEEM == Electronic Engineers Master (Catalog)Another multi-vendor catalog that was somewhat easier to get than the D.A.T.A. books. Over a thousand pages of goodness. Some vendors just put in glossy-brochure level info, some put in their full catalog. I recently used the 1983 EEM catalog to find the basic specs of a low-aging double-oven OCXO that was sold in the 1980s. Here's a link to Archive.org's collection of a few issues:https://archive.org/search.php?query=%22electronic%20engineers%20master%22

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 07:56:48 am
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on August 01, 2022, 05:04:14 amI don't think those worked outside North America.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 09:44:26 am
content: They were big here in the UK.They mostly worked, but sometimes a salesman would turn up with no notice. I had a holiday job during college and univ and used to send those off, and once I circled the number for a £5000 (1977!) Tek scope. The Tek salesman turned up, and there was this kid who obviously wasn't going to buy the scope... The whole design dept loved it - they wanted to teach me a lesson

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 11:29:42 am
content: Ebook readers a lot of stuff very well still, hacker new on a vt term looks basically the same but on a green tube.Lucky days when you found a free seat in the university laboratory, so you could access the BBS

author: passedpawn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 02:49:18 am
content: Blue and yellow books. That's the answer. Those books were found in beige lockers. That was an easy one. Next.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 07:12:52 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 29, 2022, 04:36:57 pmSome Youtubers do it only for money and their videos don't add any good information, just something grabbed from the Wikipedia.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 08:39:50 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 31, 2022, 11:56:04 pmMost people don't understand search engines, and that's *a big* problemGoogle(USA)64.233.160.0 - 64.233.191.25566.102.0.0 - 66.102.15.25566.249.64.0 - 66.249.95.25572.14.192.0 - 72.14.255.25574.125.0.0 - 74.125.255.255209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255216.239.32.0 - 216.239.63.255Yandex(Russia)5.255.192.0 - 5.255.255.2555.45.254.0 - 5.45.254.12737.9.109.0 - 37.9.109.25537.140.128.0 - 37.140.191.255Yahoo(USA, Sunnyvale, California, Verizon Communications)...Ecosia(Europe, based in Berlin, Germany,B Corporation statuscertification)...Bing(USA, Microsoft and third-party tracking tools)...DuckDuckGo(USA, based in Paoli, Pennsylvania, in Greater Philadelphia)...Baidu(China)Last time I visited China, I learned that if you try to access Google from inland China, you will be redirected toGoogle dot hk, but, depending on your query, results will be filtered or not available at all. Not available in China are alsoYahooandDuckDuckGo, sinceBaiduandSogouis what you are supposed to use.Sogou(China)Sogouhas developed its own algorithm and this has been very useful for companies who target an audience in low tier locations due to more affordable pay-per-click campaigns.Shenma(China)a joint venture betweenAlibabaandUC Web, it's a mobile search engine for Chinese shopping and Chinese appsHaosou(China + Hong Kong)also known as360OU, internal search engine for market share, but it also goes beyond China and arrives in Hong Kong, where it's a great stuff to use.Youdao(China, mandarin learners friendly)highly appreciated by mandarin learners thanks to the free online Chinese-To-English dictionary that comes with itWeibo(China)It has often been considered the equivalent of Twitter in China, but it's not a blog-social engine, it also a net-scanner....Thesenet-scanning-enginesonly scan the net - sometimes checking "robot.txt" or the like to better understand the website they are visiting - and address things for browsers.Then there arearchiving engines, things that capture a web page as it appears now for use as a trusted citation in the future.But, according to the international lawsit's only available for sites that allow crawlersthe site owner can request pages and cache deletionWayback machine(web dot archive dot org)207.241.233.214185.177.93.166185.220.101.142185.220.103.4198.245.53.182109.70.100.4794.16.117.23695.216.18.15251.91.110.17045.135.229.1037.1.202.102151.106.9.30109.201.133.6135.181.35.237116.203.50.155151.80.230.878.129.165.8Stillioarchive.todayPageFreezerWebCiteYubnubAlexa(retired from Amazon on May 1, 2022)Time Travel

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 08:49:36 am
content: (forgot to say, there is also a kind of "Chinese Microsoft bing", I mean thanks to Microsoft’s willingness to comply with local Chinese regulations, you can useMicrosoft Bing dot cnin China to access to a western search engine without using a VPN. Well, ... there is cooperation with the government, but search results are filtered by local censorship. Better than nothing)

author: Bruce Abbott
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 04:05:47 am
content: Quote from: e100 on June 19, 2022, 06:27:42 amPrior to the internet we got our info from paper datasheets and application notes. And then we didn'tneedto ask questions like the one above, because we knew what the parts did and didn't have addled ideas of their capabilities. Manufacturers knew that providing comprehensive, accurate and easy to understand documentation would boost the popularity of their devices.But then - just as the internet started to become useful - chips got more complex while 'datasheets' were pared down to little more than a list of features. Finally the Chinese started making their own chips, and often didn't publish datasheets in English if at all. Nowadays a lot of popular devices are treated like black boxes whose innards we are notsupposedto know about, so we are forced to troll the net looking for posts like the one above to get the information we need.A Google search will bring up heaps of 'information' for sure, but much of it is low quality. Recently I was looking for an answer to a question on Stack Exchange about how to reliably receive serial data on a PIC MCU. I found dozens of slick web pages with tutorials that provided example code, but onlyonethat showed you how to handle overrun errors. There were also heaps of posts from users admitting that their devices locked up from time to time, and they were just putting up with it! The best info came came from a post onPICList.com, which started out as an email list at MIT back in 2007.

author: twospoons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 04:09:54 am
content: I had a large bookshelf stuffed with data books, and the Philips rep on the other end of the phone.Debugging code was by LED, 'scope, brain power. And on one occasion printing out the code on fan-fold paper, spreading it out on the office floor and spending days crawling up and down tracing the code flow. You had to fix your own bugs - no-one else could help you.Prior to my professional career the only source of info was hobby magazines and the woefully inadequate "electronics" section of my local library.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 03:31:02 pm
content: Digging up this thread again...I have a load of data books, from the 1980-2000 sort of era. These will eventually get binned, which seems a shame. Someone was going to take them and pay for shipping, but this didn't work out. So I am posting them here again. 3 photos herehttps://www.dropbox.com/sh/qjvnupyh698nk1x/AABsWUss7e9MiM1ZF5bbSVIXa?dl=0

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 05:07:02 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on November 16, 2022, 03:31:02 pmIt would be a shame.There are a small number that might interest me. Where are you in the UK; that might remove the postage costs.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 05:14:43 pm
content: We did not know what we did not know, and therefore information search was not that difficult. Bigger problem was parts availability. You could have data books, magazines and stuff but much of it was just an amazing paperweight because you could not get parts.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 05:15:21 pm
content: I am in the south east.Ideally I'd like someone to take the whole lot.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 06:14:00 pm
content: Having access to much less information made it easier to focus.The abundance of information is great, but it's much, much harder to focus.Also, of course, as information, especially technical, was mostly available through formal education, books and magazines, which were all expensive "businesses", the average quality of information was much higher. Publishing crap content was risky and thus relatively uncommon. Now that publishing content is virtually "free", obviously the average quality of availlable information has dramatically decreased. Now if you have enough background to sort it out, it's great. But if you don't - if you're still learning the basics - then it's a hellhole.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 07:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on November 16, 2022, 05:15:21 pmI’d take them in a heartbeat if there were a way to get them here that didn’t cost a fortune.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 07:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on November 16, 2022, 05:15:21 pmI'm in the SW, and the nearest I'm likely to go to the SE is Stamford via Bedford/Oxford.My house is already full to the point I might end up on TV in the future, so I couldn't take muchHence it seems like I've had a lucky escape!

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 08:10:37 pm
content: QuoteI did an estimate and it looks like 150kg total. This would easily go into a car. It takes about 1 day to drive to me from CH.I got the office to look at shipping options but to my surprise there wasn't anything cheap, which I would have expected for this kind of material, sent by road haulage. We probably didn't look very hard though. The best price was GBP 800+ which is ridiculous. I am sure you could find people to drive there and back for less