How can we change the way people think about buying consumer electronics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 12:55:22 am
content: Sorry the title stinks.I'm working on an essay for school...due tomorrow, by the way. I have to write a satire to mock something in present society. I decided to choose consumer electronics and how easily we get caught in the buy and throw away cycle. I decided to focus in on Apple. I mocked Apple for trapping consumers in this cycle where they are lead to believe that they HAVE to have the latest product, etc.However, I have to provide real solutions to the problem. What do you think we can do to get consumers to be more aware of what they are buying, to help them (us) to step back and examine our needs and realize we dont NEED the iPhone 5, or the iPad, etc etc. Sure, they are nice, but how can we fix this problem of...well people being stupid. The most obvious answer would be to educate them..but how do you educate people on this kind of stuff?Thanks!

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 02:27:29 am
content: apple is actually a quite difficult subject for that argument, as they nudge you to upgrade by constantly reminding people how slow the old one feels, when in the scheme of things our modern mobile devices are sodding fast and usually its lousy coding letting down there devices,so its almost a cycle of:use inefficient code that passes a base line,get a faster device to run it betterwhich increases the baseline, cycle repeats,however thats not really your argument as it more chases up the developers and apple itself,to change how people think about throwing away old things means changing how they value their devices, rather than being a status symbol be a tool and terminal, if its a tool that works you keep using it until it breaks and possibly try repairing a number of times, when its the latest in fashion it only stays popular for a season to a year in general, thus the current models dillemma or business success depending on what side you root for, ,

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 03:01:41 am
content: Apple is actually a bad example for this.Sure, it's an easy target to mock "Apple fanboys" (and girls) for their slavish devotion to fashion, but the popularity wouldn't happen unless there was some substance behind the marketing. For the most part, Apple have been successful because they have produced well engineered products that do what people want. Good engineering doesn't mean being on the bleeding edge--far from it. Things like the iPhone might be a step or two back from the latest advances, but this makes them stable and robust and cost effective to produce and sell.Not all of us are blind followers of fashion by any means. Apple today may be their own worst enemy. I am not today considering the iPhone 5 as a future upgrade, and I am reconsidering my inclination to get an iPad. I am looking at alternatives. Why? Because of the iOS 6 cock-up. I happened to like the Google maps and YouTube apps along with many other people, and Apple screwed up big time by dropping them.Let's be real here. When I am shown features of Android or Windows phone that work better than my iPhone I take notice. Apple doesn't get loyalty automatically, it earns it. What you can can earn you can lose, and Apple had better watch out, or it will certainly start losing.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 03:30:05 am
content: I am not doubting the quality of the products. In fact, I really do like Apple products. They are durable and can last a long time if you want them to. The problem lies with the marketing and the consumer.The consumer (being general) is too dumb to acknowledge that he/she is caught in an endless cycle of buying. Apple is at fault for their "brainwashing" techniques that insist that you have the latest and greatest.Nothing is wrong with Apple products if you look at them solely from an engineering standpoint. It's what the company makes you think and it's what the consumer is blindly led into that is the problem.My opinion.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 03:33:33 am
content: People are going to be stupid. You don't see people clamoring to upgrade their toasters or refrigerators. You can buy an air conditioner for 89 bucks now and it will last at least a few years.Apple caters to hipsters. Hipsters are going to do whatever it takes to remain hip within their circle.Apple generates a tremendous amount of money for this country. Why would you want to do anything? Sure it would be nice if those jobs were here, but Apple is apparently popular in China which means Apple's profits are a net gain for the US. I won't use their corporatized shit, but more power to them.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 03:48:42 am
content: Okay. Instead of this being about Apple, pretend it's about Company X which has a location of Country X but employs similar techniques of Apple (But theyre not Apple!).I don't know if you can say people will always be stupid..A mere 75 years ago, this kind of buy buy buy mentality was practically unheard of. People treated their stuff as valuable goods. As rerouter was getting at, I think our stuff is a lot less valuable to us now. People do not treat their phones as tools, but rather a fashion accessory. The reason this is partially possible is because electronics are so darn cheap these days. If we throw it out, it's not a huge loss to us, but our buy buy buy lifestyle has a pretty nasty impact on our world, and especially our environment.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:18:38 am
content: The californian fruit company has never made any durable product at all.Want something durable? Buy a HTC.Tell me how is it durable if the glass breaks when dropped on the floor and i'm not saying the S3 is durable either, it's also shit

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:21:35 am
content: 75 years ago it was a depression, but people of means were buying nice cars. They bought nice radios, too. Even a cheap brownie camera, made from bakelite (a plastic made from wood), would last for years. And nylon was invented, which paved the way for even cheaper plastic.1938 high technology.I can buy an $89 air conditioner or I can pay a repairman 50 bucks an hour plus 15 bucks a can for freon to repair it. Why fix it? Send it to the recycler. Or sell or donate it to someone who will fix it themselves. I can buy a toaster for 7 bucks. An electric iron costs 9 bucks. You can't pay someone to fix this stuff for that. Of course our stuff is worth less. Maybe I invest in a $1000 air conditioner instead of a $100 one and when it breaks its worthwhile to fix it. But that's not a cellphone.Technology advances fast now. Technology is so cheap it doesn't make economic sense to fix it, because labor costs more than the technology.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:30:33 am
content: It's a tough balance. I think the general quality of most things we have these days has decreased, but yet they are "better" at the same time. Our stuff won't last as long as it did a few moons ago, but our stuff can do things unimaginable by people of 75 years ago.But I still think that we are hooked on cheap stuff. I try telling my parents to spend the extra few dollars and get the better quality one versus cheaping out and getting the one that will work...but for who knows how long.If technology was made to last, it would probably cost more, and when things cost more, we tend to care about them more, and value them more.I know getting modern technology repair is asking for trouble though. BGA rework adds up pretty quickly. But if it was made to last in the first place, you wouldn't even need BGA rework!

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:33:25 am
content: How do you "make it to last" when it will be obsolete in ten years? How many people still using Pentium II machines?

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:37:03 am
content: Quote from: T4P on September 27, 2012, 04:18:38 amMeh I beg to differ....My iPod nano was fairly indestructible compared to what was available at the time...and still today. Few devices come in machined aluminum enclosures. It's very hard to hurt those things.However, the reason that stuff breaks is because people don't take care of their stuff! Sure, accidents happen..but, a lot of the time it's just carelessness. Why are we careless? Because we don't value our technology because it's so cheap and worthless to us.I am completing my theory! Haha...3,2,1 now you can come and bash me.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:40:32 am
content: Quote from: poptones on September 27, 2012, 04:33:25 amMake it last those full 10 years. There's a time when all technology becomes obsolete. The problem with our stuff is that it becomes obsolete before it needs to be. Planned obsolescence. There's a difference between that and just plain too out of date.If you're going with a 10 year approach, a better example would be Pentium 4. Don't have a statistic, but I think there is a good amount of P4s still out in the world today, but of course, only the one's built to last.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:48:56 am
content: So that accidental 1-drop should be avoided? Really? Being a handheld device what's the chance of it not dropping in 2 years?I have dropped my HTC a dozen times and nothing happened, not even a scratch.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:56:43 am
content: Quote from: T4P on September 27, 2012, 04:48:56 amMy point is not that we should be perfect...just more careful. That's all.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 06:05:26 am
content: Quote from: FenderBender on September 27, 2012, 04:56:43 amI flipped my iPhone 4 onto a concrete floor in a parking lot the day after I got it. It doesn't have a scratch on it. The reason being that I wanted to look after my valuable phone, so I went out and got a rubber case for it right away. It now bounces when I drop it on the floor.This might not be the style that Apple intended for it, but it certainly makes me feel more comfortable.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 07:42:04 am
content: The main problem is Brand mark up, by that I mean the cost of a certain branded item versus non branded.I have just purchased a new brush cutter not due to needing a new one the old one made by Stihl (olny 4 years old)would be perfectly serviceable if I purchased a new carb but the service agents want £63 for the Zama carb made in China, I did a quick search on the web and found a company in Holland selling brand new no name brush cutters with a 52cc engine (the Still is 26cc) for £71-99p including delivery to the UK. When it was delivered 3 days later what did I find,the carb is a Zama same as the Stihl's just bigger jets I presume but externally it is identical when I took the Stihl apart most of it was made in China. The only conclusion that I can come to is brand name company's tend to rip you off especially on spares.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 09:48:51 am
content: Quote from: poptones on September 27, 2012, 04:33:25 amNot everything is obsolete in 10 years. Some simple cellphones are still used and older people actually prefer them (they are only using the phones for making and receiving calls, not even SMS and the older phones are simpler to use as just a phone). Similar with audio equipment, a good amp and speakers can be used for a long time, assuming it does not fail completely - there are no significant improvements made anymore (increasing the number of channels is only useful for some movies, not music, 99.9% of which is mono or stereo), so you only need to replace the amp if you are upgrading it, otherwise, a 20 year old amp can still sound great. Same for TVs - SD was standard for many years, now 1080p is enough and will be for many years (most likely). 3D (as it is now) is a gimmick and not really needed. My TV can display 1080i and I am happy with it.The only thing that become obsolete relatively quickly are computers, since it look like software developers become more and more incompetent so the newer software runs slower even if it does the exact same thing as the old version.Simple appliances, like a fridge or microwave oven do not really become obsolete and should be made to last many years (actually this was the law in the USSR - a fridge had to be made to last 30 years).It was a weird feeling when I replaced my new VCR (bought in a store) after it failed (mechanical failure) 6 months after warranty, because I replaced it with a 16 year old VCR (bough used on ebay) that, apart from a single bad cap in the power supply (which I replaced) still works even now and I continue to use it to record stuff from TV (though the heads may be wearing out or something got misaligned - the recorded image is brighter than the source, which is not a problem, but when copying from tape to tape the second generation copy is really bright and loses detail in white areas).

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 02:04:34 pm
content: Crowdsouring homework? :-)Maybehttp://www.storyofstuff.org/movies-all/story-of-electronics/can give you an idea of educating consumers.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 02:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on September 27, 2012, 09:48:51 amActually it's a good idea to enforce some reasonable lifetime for appliances and electronics. EU politicians becoming aware of the problem slowly. A resent study of the energy footprint of laptops shows that the production needs more energy than running the laptop. Even when considering more power efficient CPUs and so on, one would need to use a new laptop much more than 10 years to compensate the energy used for producing it vs. keeping an older model. The advice is to modularize laptops like standard PCs to simplify repairs and upgrades, and to increase their lifetime.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 02:34:04 pm
content: Unfortunately People are not just idiots , thats just a new age stereotype imo since 100924.341 BCe<, Trusting might be a better word or even innocent? , take for example all those that believe what a politician says or the Law and plenty of other examples , to some it is beyond comprehension that something can say one thing but actually mean another .But then there ARE those Idiots out here!Food for thought<a waste of time>but it's your time so who cares....

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 04:53:08 pm
content: Educate consumers...Most lower end Toshiba and Sharp LCD TVs, and all Hitachi LCD TVs, are rebadged Vestel models. You would get exactly the same build quality with a supermarket brand.But in addition, the throw-everything-away culture needs to be cured:Require a warranty of at least 3, if not 5 years on all new goods included in the price. And require that where possible the item be repaired (instead of replaced) should it fail.Require that all manufacturers make parts available for their goods at a reasonable price and to all. (Something like cost + 10-20% margin would be fine.)Require that service manuals and repair guides be published on manufacturer's websites, instead of having to dig them out from the bowels of the internet. Require schematics for all parts.Repeal RoHS or make it optional (maybe add a tax for non-lead free devices; this would encourage the use of lead free designs where it works well and manufacturers would use leaded parts on parts requiring greater reliability - for example BGAs.)Encourage buy-back schemes for older appliances where the appliances are sold, not just destroyed.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 07:51:05 pm
content: apple is a fady device, apple will soon go like nokia didi agree with coding part high level and abstraction poor compliers too

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 09:07:56 pm
content: Just ignore T4P. If you hand't mentioned Apple he wouldn't have even bothered to come into the thread.The throwaway culture arises for different reasons depending on circumstances, IMO. For cell phones, there is a constant push to sell more phones because it generates plan revenue for a cell company who is otherwise just a fixed service provider. You can't sell more of the same phones to people, so there is a huge push to constantly update the phone and create a desire to upgrade. Android phones are easy; there are so many phones and they're all at least slightly different. Apples upgrade cycle is more or less tied to the universal "2 year contract" as well.With other products like TVs, how do you convince a customer looking at two TVs that one is worth the extra 30$ because it has better capacitors that won't fail? The only way a customer can really tell is if the company develops a history of making quality products that last. That's really tough to do and it's much easier to differentiate on price or features.But I think you can wrap it up in other ideas to make it palatable. For example the "Made in the US" trend in the US typically implies quality and in most cases you do see that. It's not so much that being made in China means the quality sucks, but if they're trying to reduce the cost so much (and they're not top designers who can avoid the pitfalls) that they need to ship to China, they're going to sacrifice quality to save a buck.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 09:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: jerry507 on September 27, 2012, 09:07:56 pmWrite it on the box (or a sticker on the TV) as a feature. This is done with computer power supplies - the more expensive ones state what brand the capacitors are on the box (or at least write that the caps were made in Japan). Also, offer longer warranty - if the device is designed properly and the components are high quality, it won't fail.Of course building brand reputation is also important. If the company if known for saving every cent to the point of compromising quality then if it starts claiming that this device is longer lasting everybody will doubt it.A bit OT - the problems with capacitors seem to be very recent ones (aside from USSR caps made in late 80s to early 90s) - I have a relatively old TV (17 years old maybe, Sharp brand) and the only problem with it I had was that the horizontal deflection transistor failed after 16 or so years. I replaced it and the TV will probably work for the next 16 years. The TV has a switching power supply, but all caps are good (or at least good enough to not affect the performance). On the other hand, a lot of newer devices have failed caps. It's even worse than with the "bad period" USSR caps - at least they worked for 7 or so years before drying out (no bulge or anything like that, the cap just simulates open circuit) and the problem now is that the devices are at least 20 years old and will have at least one failed cap.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 10:20:41 pm
content: But TVs switch at 15khz and don't use particularly fast switching times. Motherboards use switching supplies that switch at very high speeds and demand large surges of current. The demands on the caps are greater, thus they die quicker.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 10:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 27, 2012, 10:20:41 pmNo, CRT TV SMPS is usually greater than 15kHz... other than the old ones using the flyback as a mains transformer, but that's an old design, requires a beefier HOT and a second standby power supply too, I haven't seen one of those for a while (I don't fix any CRT TVs though.)Main problem with LCD TVs and plasma TVs is there's very little ventilation. A CRT TV has good cooling, and there's enough space to move components around to make heat less of a problem. Also, there's been a resurgence of cheaper TVs in the rush to produce budget models - this has led to significant cost cutting at the expense of the customer. Bad caps seems to be related to quality of manufacturer rather than electrolyte, formula or design - I've seen failed CapXon in the weirdest low stress places but they'll survive elsewhere, for example.I imagine that by mandating a fixed warranty TV manufacturers would design products to last the warranty period. Repairing and replacing is expensive, so they will implement better design practices. So, they may use cheap caps - but they'll figure out a way to make 99% of the TVs using them last 5 years.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 10:52:07 pm
content: I've worked on many, the power supply is almost always tied to the 15,734hz flyback. One big transformer, one big transistor, one big cap. It used to be a common test to evaluate quality of tv sets: get a bright picture and turn the volume up loud as it will go and see how badly the screen shrinks in response to the sound.Anyway, I'm against "mandating" anything. Gov't has no business telling companies how to compete. Regulating banks is one thing, mandating warranties is something else entirely.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 11:26:38 pm
content: I think enforced warranties would cut down on waste. I visit the local tip regularly and for a small town of 50,000 people there are at least 20 dead LCD/plasma TVs in there from 19" to 50" monsters every week. Usually you'll see a 40" Samsung with bad caps there. All get disposed of. The EU already has a 1 year minimum warranty and technically you have a 6 year warranty in the UK under the sale of goods act - but you have to prove the device was designed poorly (not simply failing due to wear and tear) which for most people is only an option if lots of other people have the problem or if you get an engineers' report. If not enforced - some kind of incentive, such as a tax break, might work well.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 11:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 27, 2012, 10:52:07 pmWell, I've only taken apart two sets. One Vestel-based 11AK-something or other. It used PFC, with an ordinary SMPS transformer to provide B+, then sent to flyback. One Orion based combi 14" CRT, which used a similar design. Difference? Vestel full of crappy G-Luxon, one bad. Orion (a budget TV) full of Rubycon, none bad. Both were relatively recent models I must admit - the older ones may have done it differently.

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2012, 11:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: FenderBender on September 27, 2012, 12:55:22 ama little while ago our very own Russian Minister of Education said thatthe society doesn't need anymore educated citizens; and the primary task of educational system is producing sophisticated consumersDUHHHHyes, he iswaytoo blunt.no, he did not resign afterwards.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2012, 02:40:28 am
content: Quote from: madires on September 27, 2012, 02:04:34 pmHaha. Well honestly I picked myself a tough topic and I knew you guys would have some sort of input. So I decided to throw it out there. No I didn't copy anyone.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2012, 02:47:24 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 27, 2012, 04:53:08 pmDarn too bad I didn't ask this question two days ago! Those are some really good ideas! Unfortunately they couldn't make it into my satire.Well if anyone is curious it reading my essay, here it is:http://ge.tt/7mA8CWO/v/0?cMind you this is 3am typing on the day of. It starts to go off the deep end towards to end. I would have loved to include more "real" proposals but my mind was failing me at such wee hours of the morning.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2012, 05:08:48 am
content: With the rate of change of new tech., I doubt the consumption of devices will slow. It would probably be easier to educate consumers on how to recycle. The excess of old devices also opens other opportunities for businesses like Gazelle.http://www.gazelle.com/

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2012, 11:47:42 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 27, 2012, 04:53:08 pmYour suggestions are dead-on!

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 02:08:00 am
content: Really? I make my living buying and selling parts. If I was required by some assinine law to make no more than 20% I wouldn't bother because I would LOSE MONEY on every transaction. 20% won't even cover my ebay and paypal fees, much less shipping. And when do I get paid for my effort?Thank god I don't have you as my Senator.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 02:40:51 am
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 02:08:00 amThe fees wouldn't count, since they are part of the cost (the fees go to ebay, paypal and the postal system, but not your pocket). On the other hand, if you buy a part for $50 (includes shipping to you), pay $10 in fees and $40 in shipping (to me) costs (so, total $100) you could only ask $120 from me ($100 is the actual cost, $20 goes to your pocket).

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 04:40:34 am
content: ROTFL. OK. I'm sure your ideas would go over well in Cuba.So if I am fortunate enough to buy, say, a quarter million parts at $0.0016 cents per part, I should have to sell them at no more than, say, half a penny each? Even though that is still roughly 200% under fair market value?Twenty bucks on a 50 dollar item, assuming it costs 40 bucks in shipping, isn't worth my investment in inventory. I'd be better off hoarding silver.Even communist China isn't that stupid.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 05:30:10 am
content: OK, what would be a fair percentage? Assuming the item costs $50 (shipping, fees etc don't count - they will just get added to the total price), how much would you ask for it? $200 (+shipping +fees)? More? Less?

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 05:48:17 am
content: How much would I ask for it? As much as I could get.Seriously. How much is an ipod worth? Apparently it's worth quite a lot.A set of piston rings for a Ferrari will cost you 100 times the price for a Ford. I once had to replace a clutch in a Maserati Bora, it cost the owner like 4500 bucks and a new clutch for a Ford costs about 50 bucks. Do these expensive parts cost 100 times more to make? No, but Ferrari and Maserati buy a lot fewer - and sells a lot fewer - than Ford.I sell parts on ebay. I have one item I list for 25 bucks buy it now, and I auction one weekly and sell perhaps one every other day. Last week that item auctioned for 31 bucks. Should I let the person have it for 25?The surplus market exists because of markup. I may buy an item and not sell out of it for months, yet it may have cost me $1000 to buy the lot. Am I supposed to sell that at a flat 300% markup?Back in the day when really good surplus lots were common on ebay I bought a lot of 7500 solid dielectric caps of, I think, about 470uF, another lot of 5K that were perhaps 100uF, and so forth. The 7500 lot cost me about 75 bucks. These were really common motherboard values and it was the height of the emachines/dell/gateway/sony bad motherboard conflagration. I was able to sell a lot of 15 of the larger value for 7.50 and they went as fast as I could list them. As those bad machines gradually fell out of the market I was left with maybe 2500 of them. I can't sell them for 50 cents each anymore, they sit on the shelf and go into grab bag lots. If I had been "legislated" into fixed profits I would have lost my ass on them, I would have had to sell 5000 of them at a penny profit each and I'd be left holding the bag for a third of them.You can't legislate good business. Items are worth what they are worth. Do you remember tube crts? A crt for a bad monitor costs more than a new monitor. Why? Because the manufacturer has to keep that item in separate inventory to ship it by itself. It has to be packaged for shipment, billed as a single unit and handled as a single unit. Go to digikey and see if you can buy one of an item for the same price you can buy it in lots of 1000.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 07:24:07 am
content: I think a good way to change how people view electronic devices when they are buying them is that magazine (and internet) reviews should always try to include a teardown and do some quantitative analysis on the ACTUAL quality or more importantly LONGETIVITY of the device.The reviews should check the capacitor brands/types and other known points of failure and try to make the consumer aware of these flaws. This way making "cool" looking products that work about until the last warranty date ignoring the insides would be harder because the consumers would be more aware of what actually defines the longetivity (and quality) of the product (which is the actual parts/structure inside the device, not a cool aluminum front panel).

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 08:15:50 am
content: 85% of the consumers don't know how to differentiate between a cheaper well-built phone and a more expensive badly-built phoneLook at apple and samsung users

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 08:54:07 am
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 05:48:17 amOK, it seems I didn't think it trough. However, some companies overcharge too much for common parts (unlike a CRT, which probably was made by the same company which made the monitor). For example, when the batteries in my UPS (4x12V/18Ah) died, I checked to see the price of the official battery pack. Then I checked my local electronics store. The batteries in the pack are CSB GP (cheapest CSB batteries, regular use, 5 years@25C, ~1 year @50C) or some other manufacturer. For the price of the pack I bought CSB HRL (designed for long life and high power discharge, 12 years @25C, 3 years @50C, cost about twice as much as the CSB GP batteries) and had money left over. Another example would be ink for printers - the official ink sometimes costs two or three times as much as the third party ink cartridges.As for digikey - cheap items (like resistors) get quite expensive (relatively) if I would buy one instead of 5000, on the other hand, bigger, more expensive items (like, say, a VFD) do not get that much more expensive. Examples: Aresistorcosts 0.02 if I buy one, but 0.00256 if I buy 1000, so buying one is 7.8 times more expensive. On the other hand, aVFDcosts 51 if I buy one, but 36 if I buy 5000, buying one is only 1.4 times more expensive.

author: EEMarc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 02:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on September 29, 2012, 08:54:07 amTry starting a business for yourself. That will rectify your thoughts on the matter.DYI seems great when you don't consider your time worth anything. Businesses pay people to do work and time is money. Apples and Oranges.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 02:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 02:08:00 amLarge distributors for IT stuff just make about 5% and IT shops about 10-15%. If the IT shop tries to make 20%, customers will buy somewhere else because they get the PC for 30-50 bucks less. If an IT shop is just reselling standard stuff it has to sell huge amounts to survive. Or the shop has to sell some special and rare stuff, or has to make money via service.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 02:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 05:48:17 amSelling penny parts is another story, since the processing of the sale is much more expensive than the part itself. The original topic was about consumer electronics, i.e. TVs, PCs, laptops, smartphones, stereos, microwave ovens and so on.

author: EEMarc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 04:09:42 pm
content: Legislation that would limit profitability that is intended for the consumer electronics market will impact other markets such as poptones. In some cases, it would devastate them. Writing law to cover all such cases becomes convoluted, full of loopholes, and gives competitive advantages to those who can worm their way through it. This usually means the large companies win and the small ones get screwed.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 04:19:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEMarc on September 29, 2012, 04:09:42 pmPlease don't get government involved in regulating something else, they really can't do it well.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 04:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 27, 2012, 04:53:08 pmWill never happen. Consumer electronics changes too rapidly for manufacturers to keep supporting older models, they simply will not do it.QuoteThe reason replacement parts are high is because they have to store those parts and it isn't easy because of the way the products are manufactured. After a production run of a model they would have to keep every part of that model in a warehouse and to make the price low would have to store lots of those parts. Eventually you end up with a very large warehouse with lots of parts that are not needed anymore and you have to get rid of them . What might work is to do what appliance parts have done. Appliance makers do not warehouse every part, instead at the end of a production run, third party companies buy up the surplus and sell the parts later, taking the burden off the manufacturer.QuoteLG does this on some stuff. The main issue with this idea is proprietary information. To see how open companies are about releasing information check out the fcc id database. This is the place all RF devices sold in the USA list their products test information, schematics, pictrues, etc. You can download schematics from the site for a ton of different products, but the more established companies have filed a letter of confidentiality which blocks the schematics from being shown.go herehttps://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfmtype znf in the grantee box and LG430G in the product code box and click searchOn the next page click summary, notice it list the schematic but is marked as permanent confidentialNow go back to the same page and enterZ4U and then TC881101Click detail and you can download the schematicThe difference is one is a large company with lawyers and the other is a small one without. Those are the same lawyers you would have to fight to get those schematics open to the public.QuoteThey already do this for things like refrigerators, and some places take electronics too. The problem is the electronics are not recycled most of the time, they get put in a shipping container and shipped to dumps in India or China.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 06:47:14 pm
content: Selling penny parts is another story, since the processing of the sale is much more expensive than the part itself. The original topic was about consumer electronics, i.e. TVs, PCs, laptops, smartphones, stereos, microwave ovens and so on.What some of you seem to not realize is that selling "parts" for an itemputs manufacturers in competition with themselves. Apple doesn'twantto sell you a battery for your ipod because Apple doesn't make much money on that battery (there is absolutely zero value added in selling parts) and by repairing your ipod they have deprived themselves of an opportunity to sell you anewipod. It's not in Dell's best interest to sell you a motherboard they had tobuyfrom Foxconn, they want to sell you a whole computer that DELL made. See?There is one area where laws like this exist in the US: cars. Automakers are required by law to stock replacement parts for ten years. It's a pain in the ass and, guess what? It depresses the market supply ofaftermarketparts. For example, it used to be that Ford small blocks cost about twice as much to rebuild as Chevy small blocks. Gaskets, pistons, rings and bearings cost a lot more for a Ford than a Chevy. Why? Because there were a lot more Chevys being sold. And when Ford released the Fox body Mustang and sales took off like a rocket, itstillcost more for many years to rebuild a Ford than a Chevy even though the DFord was outselling the Chevy. Why? Because Ford changed some of their tooling in 1981 and Chevy didn't change their small block until several years later. It wasn't until the late 80's that it became cheaper to build a Ford small block than a Chevy - after Chevy had changed their small block, and Ford's mandated spare parts inventory was about to expire and so the aftermarket companies considered it worthwhile to ramp up their own production of spare parts.Forcing manufacturers to repair everything they sell would depress the market for repair shops and spare parts. It would make it even more expensive to roll our own computers because everything that goes inside would cost more. It would depress the resale market because rather than upgrading their phone and selling the old one on ebay (because that's what happens to good phones - no one is tossing out a 200 dollar phone) they would keep the old one until it was so obsolete no one would want it.The problem is the electronics are not recycled most of the time, they get put in a shipping container and shipped to dumps in India or China.That's not true at all. They get put in shipping containers and shipped off to places with terrible environmental laws where they get disassembled, ground up, and reprocessed for the precious metal content. Even lead batteries - there's a giant battery processing place in China where the workers get sick and the ground is toxic waste from all the lead. Perhaps something needs to be done about that, too, but it's not our business ot tell China how to deal with their own real estate.There's a fellow in Kentucky - I know this because my brother, who had a PC repair shop, has sold him cartons of dead motherboards - who buys motherboards off ebay and does the gold leeching himself. What he does with the rest of it I have no idea, but even "dead" products have value to someone, and that value is going to be extracted until there's minimal residual product.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 06:56:21 pm
content: Tell me about LG and trying to find service details. Their manuals are pitiful. I have only found one or two schematics and they usually miss out the big stuff like power supply whilst focusing on the individual data lines on the DDR RAM.Sure they are proprietary but there's a lot of work involved in simply copying stuff. The argument is that if schematics are published then other manufacturers will copy. That argument falls down because:a) only small manufacturers would even dare to do this. Larger ones would go to war with each other and it's not worth the risk.b) there's still considerable software, PCB layout, EMI, sourcing, servicing, maintenance involved with a design. A schematic is only a small part of it but makes TV repair much more possible.Re. the warranty, it would probably turn out that there would not need to be any "repair instead of replace" term, but that it would end up being cheaper to repair instead of replace once the individual businesses realise that they end up fixing 10% of their TVs because of inferior components ... then they install good components in the next run. In theory.Most buy back schemes just crush or part out the TVs. Singer used to do the same thing with old sewing machines because the used market was killing their business.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 07:02:20 pm
content: Singer used to do the same thing with old sewing machines because the used market was killing their business.There ya go. Like I was saying...

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 07:21:32 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 06:47:14 pmYes, that is why the government needs to force the manufacturers do it, because they are not going to do this themselves. They don't need to sell all parts, just the custom ones, like heads for a VCR (I can buy capacitors and resistors in my local electronics store, no need to buy them from the manufacturer and pay for shipping). Also, a law mandating minimum 5 year warranty would increase the reliability of the devices (since then it would not be economical to make devices that fail within a year).The companies want the consumer to buy their products, toss them out (not sell on ebay) as quickly as possible and buy new ones from the same company. This, however, creates a lot of waste, since the devices are not properly recycled and even if they were (and it was possible to recycle 100% of the materials), all the fuel burned to ship them from China to the consumer and from the consumer back to China (for recycling) also adds to the waste generated just so the companies can make even more money. So, to reduce the waste we need to force the companies to create less waste, even though they will make less money than they currently do.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 07:31:59 pm
content: Again, that's a stupid idea. You're cutting down on the number ofjobsfor people.If you're worried about transport cost, why not just end the 40 Billion in subsidies the US pays for oil? I'm not sure how much the UK or China provide in subsidies, but in the case of China I'm willing to bet it's a HUGE sum of money.Now everything is more expensive. Now poor people can no longer afford air conditioning, so you have more poor and elderly people dropping dead during heatwaves. Cutting off subsidies sure seems to have worked in Nigeria, where there are many poor people.http://youtu.be/LWsJwwGVW-oI think things work pretty well right now.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 07:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 06:47:14 pmOf course it's against their normal practice to sell individual parts, just like they don't divulge a single detail of what's going on in a MAC. Nor do they tell you what CPU you are getting with their seriously overpriced Macs, now, they can sell batteries all they want but they are probably gonna sell it at 100$, when they easily got it from Foxconn(they do!) for fewer than 2$ even in one-off quantities(Believe me or not, it's the truth)That's apple ethnic. Sell you a crap battery that craps out in a year and frozen in a coffin-like case and expect you to change a new model the next yearI have seen LG make that mistake with the first optimus but my other LGs have not crapped out within the first year nor is my HTC crapping outMy friend's 4S purchased last year has already crapped outYou get my point? It's all about apple ethnic.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 07:42:23 pm
content: Ethic.And again I say so what? A dead ipod is still worth money, no one is tossing it in the trash they sell it on ebay to someone who needs to repair theirs, or who doesn't mind opening the case and fixing that two dollar battery.We don't need legislation to protect people from themselves. If you had a bad experience with an Apple, don't fucking buy another one. When their sales fall off they'll fix the problem, no legislation needed.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 08:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 07:42:23 pmUnless all cell phone manufacturers start doing the same.After all, if lead paint was not banned, it would be used on a lot of toys (it still is, even though it is banned). Same with other toxic materials. Free market only works if there are a lot of suppliers and the buyers have complete information.Making everything more expensive (by mandating long warranties, not with a tax) would also encourage people to try to repair the old device instead of trowing it out and buying a new one. That would even help the repair service market.This whole "companies must grow" thing is unsustainable - we will run out of resources and then what?

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 09:32:38 pm
content: That's a rather dumb "if." There is no legislation now and they don't do it. Manufactuers are greedy but not stupid. If you piss off your customers, no more company. Chinese companies are able to get away with this because resources are so cheap and there are so many Chinese. That well will eventually run dry and manufacturers will be forced to improve their quality - just like Yugo and some of the other little car companies did in the west. Otherwise they'll go the way of SAAB and someone else will fill their shoes.As I already pointed out numerously, stuff isalreadybeing recycled. Making everything more expensive penalizes poor people. I'm not down with making the lives of poor people even harder.Man, am I glad I don't live in the EU. I now see how convoluted some of that "legislate everything" thinking can be.Nothing personal. It's cultural.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 09:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 09:32:38 pmGasoline (A95) in my country costs ~$1.8/L (not gallon, by the way, average salary here is $850/month, minimal salary is ~$250/month). When the price of oil increases, the price of gasoline immediately increases too, the gas stations explain this by the fact tat they have no reserves, so they now buy more expensive gas and sell it at higher price. This is understandable. However, when the price of oil drops, the price of gasoline stays the same or increases, the gas stations explain this by saying thatnowthey have huge reserves of the expensive gas, so they cannot lower the price. There are maybe 5 companies that run gas stations and they all do this.No wonder a lot of people want the government to regulate the price of gas. Germany already does that and the government in my country doesn't because they are idiots or in the pocket of the gas companies.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 10:02:54 pm
content: To be honest - we wouldn't be losing out on much in the UK. Hardly anything is made in these countries that the average consumer would buy. It might reduce some jobs in the retail market -- but this has been on the decline for some time anyway, and more and more customers are buying stuff on the internet. The number of times I've walked into a big box store to find it mostly empty but still staffed with 10 bored looking sales assistants!Margins on TVs and such are razor thin - they'd rather sell you that £90 HDMI cable, which they make 90% margin on, rather than the TV which nets them 2-3%. I was in a retail store a couple of weeks ago where the customer was asking what HDMI cable they'd need to watch HD, the sales assistant was going on about how you'd get a clearer picture, better colours etc etc with the higher end cable. I was so tempted to hand them the £1 metre long cable I'd picked up in Poundland! (BTW - the cable is perfectly capable of 1080p at 50 Hz; the only complaint must be is that 1m is a stretch, but I'd quite happily pay £2 for a 2 metre one!)If repair and service becomes more popular, the jobs would probably be transferred from the retail market to the repair industry.

author: amvakar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 10:43:49 pm
content: Maybe I live in a strange parallel universe, but most people I know actually do research on products and factor reliability and longetivity into their purchasing decisions. It's not like we live in a world where a salesman can lie anymore -- the Internet is full of critiques of every major device one can buy. If people choose cheap crap it's because they're too stupid to deserve better, don't care to deserve better, or can't afford better. The first two will stratify markets no matter how high one sets the baseline, and the last will always exist until you legislate poor people into having nothing for their own good.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 11:02:01 pm
content: Indeed. Every time I go to buy an appliance I have two rules that I generally follow:Don't buy anything when it has just come on the market.Check reviews.If there are lifetime issues the reviews will indicate it, but not until AFTER the item has been on the market six months or more.The exception to this rule I have followed was a Panasonic G10 42" plasma monitor I bought. And I bought it knowing it was a Panasonic. In my experience, that's a very good brand.I bought my Acer pad after shopping around more than a month. It was in the middle of its life cycle so I got it reconditioned for about half retail. I find "reconditioned" to also be a good value (there's that recycling thing again...)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 11:17:32 pm
content: You did good on your G10 series. I happen to have a 50" G10 in my student dorm. It unfortunately has a cracked screen, so it's going to be recycled for parts (I'm just selling it on eBay to someone who does this kind of stuff.) But build quality is head and shoulders above any Samsung or LG plasma by far - all Rubycon caps on the plasma scan/sustain boards (PSU uses Chemicon) - the number of IGBTs on it - I counted 20 on the scan board and another 15 on the sustain board - it's really well engineered. It's one of the few TVs that will lead you to the fault when something is wrong using the blink code. Excellent service manual, with full schematics of everything.Panasonic used to give away free 5 year warranties with their TVs - they were confident that they would last.They don't do it any more, my guess would be the retail stores don't like it, they like to add their optional warranty for hundreds of pounds. The warranty seems to be the same whether you get a 42" Panny plasma or a 42" Vestel based Toshiba/Sharp/Hitachi, they seem to have no knowledge of the difference in build quality!I will say though - stay AWAY from the new X5 consumer Panasonic plasmas. They aren't the high end ones but I used to recommend them as they are budget - think £349 for a 42" 1080p - but they're full of crappy caps and the build quality has really suffered. BAD Panasonic!!

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 11:39:28 pm
content: I'll probably buy another Panasonic, but not a plasma. I use my monitor for my desktop and I didn't know plasma could etch. By the time I lost track of it (long story) iI could see a dark stripe across the top where my taskbar resides.I'm not even terribly sure about the Pana part, I am looking at an LG LED set for 699 bucks.Seven hundred bucks for a 1080P 42" LED set. If it blows up I can replace the caps myself

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2012, 11:47:09 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 11:39:28 pmLG have a lot more problems than caps now."Lucky if it Goes"Mainly firmware issues. Though they are better than some others I like to avoid LG. They also don't stand behind their product as evidenced by their mura issues.I would go for a higher end Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Sharp, or even a JVC LED (>=40") - it appears all make their own LED TVs (though I'm not sure for how long - we'll have to see.) Some Samsung LEDs are OK - usually they use good caps (form factor requirements - Rubycon has excellent low profile caps) - but I've seen on the badcaps forums quite a few dying after 2-3 years with various problems.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2012, 01:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 29, 2012, 06:47:14 pmI see, and those companies will continue with that business model as long as they can. But we also have to realize that natural ressources are limited and throwing broken e-junk at the nearest landfill isn't the most brilliant idea. You don't need to be scientist to anticipate what will happen. Some raw materials will become very expensive, rare earths for example, so it will be cheaper to recycle old electronics. Landfills will become new mines. Not next year, but in 20 or 30 years.QuoteIf there wouldn't be any regulation at all, the car manufactures would try to suppress any and kind of aftermarket spare parts with patents, because they want you to buy a new car.QuoteI would enforce manufactures to provide service documentation and spares of custom parts, not that they have to repair all products by themselves. And I don't think it would depress the resale market, since products would become more expensive. Yes, my home-built PC will be more expensive too.QuoteLike burning the whole TV to get the copper wires by kids in Africa or "cooking" PCBs with acid to get the gold in front of a hut at the dumpster somewhere in Asia. It's our business because we created that e-junk by throwing it away. It's easy to export that problem, but that doesn't solve it. There are several local companies recycling e-junk in a proper way and they make money. But with shipping containers full of e-junk to Africa or Asia you can make a quick buck :-(