Buying Keysight 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench DMM - Opinions? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Majorassburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 05:03:24 pm
content: This MAY be my next DMM purchase based upon your opinions, advice & experiences.I'm open to alternatives in the "under $2,000" price range.I eliminated the Fluke 8808A because of its limited functions (no capacitance, etc.).Your input is much appreciated. TIA.

author: Demon Xanth
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 05:05:01 pm
content: The Keithly DMM6500 is a very comparable model.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 05:09:30 pm
content: Its either the Keysight or the Keithley DMM6500. I don't think there is any real competition at that price point, unless you want to go lower in price and quality or higher in both.

author: Lstkartagi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 05:43:42 pm
content: The 34465A seems to be going for around $1,860 before tax, so if $2k is the range, I would consider a 65A. The DMM6500s are good, exceptional on the 10V scale and 4 wire ohms, however IMHO a far less user friendly interface. Probably just depends in part on what you get used to or personal preferences in GUIs. Does TEquipment still give an EEVBLOG discount? Probably worth asking them anyway.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 05:49:37 pm
content: Well, if you can get the 34465A under 2k it's a really strong contender too. Here in Europe is €1990 before tax, which is already over $2000. I't an overall improvement in every aspect of the 34461A which I have, and it's excellent. I'd like to get the DMM6500, but haven't been able to find it used for under €500 yet

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 09:05:52 pm
content: Definitely consider the Keithley unless there is a strong reason not to go for it (e.g. you simply must have the extra buttons of the Keysight). When I got mine it was actually (significantly) cheaper in the UK than a 34461A let alone a 65A and the extra features it has are important to me, so it was a no-brainer. That's back in early 2021 though, prices have gone up substantially since.I also picked up a nice 34401A since though, and certainly enjoy having both available@Antonio90If you find a decent one used for <500EUR then I'd buy a lottery ticket at the same timeMine was ~850EUR + VAT for an ex-demo unit (full warranty and support, cosmetically almost perfect), but they're WAY more than that now

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 09:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: Hydron on March 05, 2024, 09:05:52 pmYeah, not happening. 850EUR +VAT is a bargain anyway, now it is around twice. I got my 34461A for 500EUR, but it was used, from a lab, and the light coloured version, so quite a bit older than yours I'd wager.I would certainly buy the DMM6500 If I had the choice between the two of them new. Probably even over the 34465A at the same price.

author: slugrustle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 09:53:39 pm
content: Keysight won't deal with you (e.g., if you need warranty repair) unless you are a business. Seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-officially-lost-the-plot-dont-buy-if-youre-a-hobbyist/. That's something to consider if you're buying this for personal / hobby use.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 10:59:23 pm
content: 34461A vs. DMM6500 is a bit of a conversation and it's been covered in other threads. They are quite different and even a single aspect might direct someone one way or the other.In the US, Keysight doesn't actually require any documentation on whether you are a business or not. I just made up a three letter acronym and they simply don't care.At the moment, the 34465A is the better choice over the 34461A, as Keysight is having a promotion where you can get some free stuff after purchase:https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/3123-1921/flyers/Choose-Your-Reward-Promotion.pdf

author: slugrustle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 12:43:36 am
content: Quote from: J-R on March 05, 2024, 10:59:23 pmWas this only for the initial purchase, or did you receive actual services such as warranty repair by this method?

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 01:23:09 am
content: Both the 34461A and 34465A are rock steady since I got them three years ago. So no regret on either meter and I highly recommend them.I presume you are buying a 6.5 digit meter for precision and accuracy, my suggestion is to set aside some funds for occasional calibration.I considered buying the 6500, but since my gears are almost all Keysight/Agilent in the lab and I know their sales and support team well, I decide not to get the 6500 as a one off. But I will have no reservation with it as long as touch-based interface is OK with you.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 01:27:51 am
content: Quote from: slugrustle on March 06, 2024, 12:43:36 amExtended warranty purchases and repair as well. I sent in a U1461A with a bad screen and they sent a replacement unit. In none of my dealings did they ask for any proof of a real business.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 01:37:29 am
content: Quote from: J-R on March 05, 2024, 10:59:23 pmI second this. The DMM6500 has more ranges though. I have a 34461A myself but one thing I don't like is that the lowest Ohm range is 100 Ohm. I wish the DMM6500 existed when I needed a 6.5 digit dmm.

author: Majorassburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 01:44:53 am
content: Thanks for all the valuable info.After studying specs and reviewing your comments, I'm leaning heavily toward the Keysight 34461A because:1) 34661A's immediately available from the factory (Don't want to buy through distribution/dealers) unless I'm missing something here. 2 day delivery. I hate to wait! DMM6500 quoted 33 weeks!2) The specs for the functions I use most are adequate to very good (Low Frequency AC, DC Voltage, Resistance, Diode, Continuity, Capacitance).3) I like the tighter specs on the DMM6500 and the Lo-OHMS range but I don't like touch screen interface on anything.4) The 34465A is nicer but I can't justify the extra $400 for what I intend to use it for.The only spec I don't like is the AC-coupled TRMS. I like a switchable choice, AC or AC+DC.I'll keep studying and I'll keep an open mind to any additional comments.Thanks so much for all your input so far, especially on the promo program.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 02:23:35 am
content: with the failing spear mcus in theses, i would avoid them personally speakingnot sure if the 65 has the same problems

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 02:53:54 am
content: Get the 34465A and get a free U1733C! Pays for itself!

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 04:07:50 am
content: Not sure if relevant to you, but be aware that 34661A doesn’t take thermocouples of any kind.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 04:26:14 am
content: 34465A also can measure up to 1G Ohm and adds a 1uA DC current range. There are some other memory and speed differences. Worth the extra money unless you just don't have it.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 08:44:33 am
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on March 06, 2024, 04:07:50 amWith most DMMs the use of thermocoules is limited, as the connector and cold junction temperature compensation don't work well. So don't expect much accuracy.An exception is the Keithley 2110, with a proper TC connector.

author: Hexley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 04:35:25 pm
content: After using a 34465A for a year or two, I added a 6500 because I needed the expansion card capability for a certain project.The 6500 is nice for some specialty tasks, particularly data acquisition; but I found that the UI of the 6500 did not suit my operating habits.So for day-to-day use, I reach for the Keysight.YMMV.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 09:43:03 pm
content: The 34465A is a no-brainer compared to the 34461A with the promotion and those features like the thermocouple support and extra current and resistance ranges. From a price perspective, the 2M memory upgrade is worth about $300 and would add some value to the instrument, and the U1733C retails for about $550 and can be sold on eBay for $400 or more if necessary. Either are good options depending on your needs.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 10:00:41 pm
content: We have both in the office. The 34461A is a good meter. If you can afford an update to the 34465A, you are golden.The DMM6500 is OK, but it has some issues that gets on my nerves every time I want to do more than measure a value. No cold junction compensation for thermocouple. The battery dies in like 2 years, you have to take it apart a lot to replace it. The buffering somehow makes an excel starting the middle of the buffer. Sampling settings are unintuitive.The only two things going for the DMM6500 IMHO are the high speed sampling, and the optional scanner card. If you don't need those, I would get the 34461A. Even though there was 1 out of 4 or 5 that died on me, it was replaced in warranty.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 01:04:20 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on March 06, 2024, 08:44:33 amSpot on, educational as always!I only wanted to point out that 34661A can't read thermocouples, whereas both DM6500 and 34665A (34661A's bigger brother) can.Why would one use a 6.5 DMM (with a dc voltage accuracy in the vicinity of 30 ppm) with a thermocouple of 1-3% accuracy? Not necessarily for accuracy per se (or lack of it...), but also for the excellent graphics/logging capabilities with real time trend display of many modern bench DMMs.I am lucky enough to have both 34661A and DMM6500 on my bench. The night I took the picture below I was trying to optimize the cooling of a device I was putting together (the heat came form high-power blue LEDs running in different sequences). I could not find in my drawers any thermistor or temperture sensor my 34661A could read. Luckily, I had a bunch of K-type thermocouples that worked just fine with my DMM6500 (the one particularly used here came with one of my Flukes). Job done.Might be relevant to some.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 09:10:40 am
content: It can absolutely make sense to use a 6 digit DMM with a thermocouple. The absolute accuracy of the TCs is limited, but the reproducibilty can still be good. All it needs is an external cold junction compensation and than some math (the DMM6500 should be able to do the math as a user programmable function). One does not really need 6 digits, but may want 1 µV or better resolution for the voltage and this is usually found with 6 digit meters and few 5 digit ones. There are few dedicated thermometers with comparable resolution and they may cost as much as a 6 digit DMM.The scanner cards for the DMM6500 may include a cold junction sensor.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 02:22:00 pm
content: We have 3 KS34465s and a DMM6500. The DMM6500 was acquired when a KS34465 was backordered a year and we forgot to cancel the order when we found a DMM6500 in stock as a replacement (this was our first Keithley Instrument). When the KS arrived a year later we decided to go ahead and keep it since the price had really jumped up!!Now that we have both types the DMM6500 lower ohms range is highly appreciated, both types are really good instruments and one can't go wrong with either!!Best,

author: BorisB
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 04:50:34 pm
content: @Antonio90 Not sure where you saw the 1,999 € excl. VAT for 34465A? AFAIK it is currently available for far less, e.g. 1,701.68 € excl. VAT from Germany.It is a moot point, however, since it is not an option for hobbyists and freelance consultants in the EU.Cheers!

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 05:01:51 pm
content: For anyone in the UK, Farnell have a promotion on 34461A at £978 + VAT, cheaper than the 60A.https://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/34461a-promo/digital-multimeter-6-5-digit-1kv/dp/4294711?st=34461a

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 06:38:19 pm
content: +1 for 34465A; it is a joy to use.The 6500 is likely also very good but I think it will have the strongest appeal to users who are adept with or enjoy software scripting.On the KS if you can take advantage of a promotion it might help close the gap between the 61 and 65.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 06:46:23 pm
content: Note: Capacitance is specced at1.0 nF to 100.0 μFin practice up to 1000 μF.To me this is the only weak hardware related point of the 34465A I have been usingfor just under 10 years now. The other is its Benchvue software. But that's another story.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 10:58:48 pm
content: they should never put capacitance's checks in bench dmm ... and surely for theses low values .. ORsince we have highly integrated chipsets like the ones in DEER lcrs etc ... a 2x IC's combination, why don't they add it properly ?just add an real cap discharge load before the measurements

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 11:53:04 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on March 30, 2024, 10:58:48 pmHaving a capacitance measurement in a bench DMM is fantastic. I wound't want a bench DMM without capacitor measurement. It saves needing another instrument on an already crowded bench if you just want to check whether the right capacitor has been put on a board. OR you are not mistaken putting a capacitor back which is next to 5 other capacitors you removed from a board earlier on.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 06:05:25 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2024, 11:53:04 pmI agree. Which makes 2 now.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 06:51:09 am
content: and you people forget they are time constant measurements to give you the capacitance, not frequency related ... not dcr esr blah blah ...man my 189 do 50,000 ufmy gossen 30,000 uf ... and i still don't thrust a part of it because of time constant, maybe and removed cap could be measured, but in circuit it's a no gosave yourself 100 buck and buy an de-5000, or even buy theses "avr based component testers" for 10-30$, they do a better job at it

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 09:35:22 am
content: In circuit capacitance measurements are always tricky. The only exception is an ESR test, when also doing a DC resistance test first.There is relatively little extra effort to add the capacitance function - much if it reusues the ohms part. This way the protection for the ohms part is also active. In this respect the capacitance function on DMMs is often better protected than many dedicated LCR meters.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 10:33:19 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on March 31, 2024, 06:51:09 am99.9% of the times that doesn't interest me. I just want an indication of the value. 99.99% of the capacitors I use are ceramic.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 01:07:38 pm
content: I chose the DMM6500 at work (I’ve used the 34465A and don’t care for the UI), and I’m quite happy with it. It does have some UI quirks, but it’s fast and powerful, and incredibly flexible. I haven’t used this feature yet, but one thing you can do in it iswrite your own apps, so you can make it do things it was never designed to do. One of the demo apps is a fully parametric thermistor readout, so you can make it work with any imaginable NTC thermistor.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 08:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2024, 11:53:04 pmOr you picked out 25 0.1µF 0402 decoupling caps and want to quickly make sure you didn't mix anything else in. The auto hold, tabular capacitance measurements are super handy for something like this. Just quickly measure them all, moving on at the beep, no need to look up at the instrument, and then eyeball the table to verify.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 09:06:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2024, 11:53:04 pmHave you tried one of those “smart” LCR tweezers? Not only that they don’t take any precious space on your bench, they could also be more precise. They are so tiny that, if your bench is as crowded and messy as mine, you’ll actually have a hard time find them when you need them. Case in which, indeed, a large, easy to locate bench DMM with capacitance capabilities comes in handy.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 09:27:44 pm
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on March 31, 2024, 09:06:57 pmI have read about those but have not really considered buying them so far. A quick Google shows that these things are rather expensive at between $300 to $400. At that price it doesn't really make sense for me to purchase. I see some lower cost ones but no idea whether these are worth buying. Anything needing a replaceable battery is a hard pass though.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 10:33:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2024, 09:27:44 pmOnce they were but things are changing.Having used SMD tweezers for 15+ years and an early convert to them I endorse Caliaxy's comments except for losing them amongst bench clutter as here they a valued tool.Shannon's ST42 SMD smart tweezer has changed the landscape and my now old ST3 tweezers have been retired.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/