What Software is Right for Me?  KiCAD or Altium? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: asg32000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 01:54:56 pm
content: I am new to circuit design, but I want to start taking it seriously. I am looking to gain some professional experience and have something that will look good on a resume. I am kind of torn between using KiCAD and using Altium. I've heard that Altium would look better on a resume, and that it's more full featured, but it obviously costs money where KiCAD is free. I have the money and the will to pay for Altium if it's worth it, but can someone please help me weigh the pros and cons so I can make a value-based decision? What are your thoughts on Altium Designer 16 vs KiCAD (latest release)?

author: andre_teprom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 04:49:26 pm
content: In my opinion, Altium is an excellent tool, having several features that you’d not probably find at Kicad. Additionally, it has specific packs for analyzing EM fields as well Thermal analysis. An finally, it has an almost “native” integration with Solidworks, where you can draw 3D models. However, I particularly see Altium as a corporate tool proper for professionals who work entirely on PCB design, not for eventual use; It’s quite hard to setup a new design.

author: Papal_Stick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 05:51:52 pm
content: Quote from: asg32000 on January 25, 2016, 01:54:56 pmIt's likely that your (future) job will be outsourced to Eastern Europe. Anyway I'd learn KiCAD, good luck and have fun.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 07:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: asg32000 on January 25, 2016, 01:54:56 pmTo paraphrase, a good designer can use any package...Since Kicad is free, why not try both both? Altium name might help with employers or agents who use keyword search, but intelligent employers are going to look at what you have designed, rather than what tool. If they also use Altium, that might be a bonus, but chances are they don't.OTOH, if you can master several packages then that shows flexibility and ability to learn. You might also be able to impress an employer with an objective critique of the merits if different packages.

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 07:55:42 pm
content: PCB design is more than just knowing how to use the software, what buttons to click, etc.I think it's both an art and a science/engineering.KiCad and Eagle are free downloads. Just learn them and get the skills/experience.If you have the money, then buy Altium. I'm sure prior experience will transfer to the other software. It's just a matter or learning where the equivalent commands are and learning a new way of doing the same things.

author: mstevens
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 07:59:48 pm
content: If you purchase an Altium license be advised that you will never be able to get any of that money back on resale. Altium does not allow reselling of their licenses.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 08:20:44 pm
content: Quote from: asg32000 on January 25, 2016, 01:54:56 pmAre you a student? If so, contact Altium for the 12 month student package.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/contact-with-altium-about-a-lighthobbyist-version/msg87575/#msg87575And there is a free 30 day trial version.http://www.altium.com.au/solutions/by-industry/educationKiCAD Vs Altium - they are very different packages & they both offer very different features.As suggested above, why not learn both. That way you will be in the box seat as to which tool you want to use for the various designs you undertake.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2016, 11:35:12 pm
content: I'd start with Kicad so at least you have an idea on what to look for. Besides that Altium seems to have become a bit of a Pavlov choice when it comes to schematics and PCB design. IMHO it most certainly is not the best / most stable package out there!

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 04:55:46 pm
content: QuoteIt is worth it if you are serious about design.Why eat dog food when you can have filet mignon? Buy Altium if you have the money and have fun. You will be spending the same amount of money with KiCAD getting it working when you factor your time to deal with it's GUI and its primitive workflow.Also, if you are wanting to build skills with a tool that is good for a resume, etc. Go with Altium (or another professional tool such as PADS, allegro, Zuken, etc). For example, if you ever want a consulting gig and have to interoperate with others, KiCAD is useless. Outside of the hobby world, no one uses it.QuoteThis is 100% false. I have personal experience as I have picked up a seat that another company let lapse. All you have to do call Altium to transfer a license. One party just has to write a letter and they will switch it over. Trust me, the sales guy will always take whatever money they can.

author: jeroen74
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 06:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 25, 2016, 11:35:12 pmAt work (a small startup) we are looking into buying our own CAD package instead of subcontracting the work as we did in the past.Unfortunately most, if not all, PCB subcontractors can handle Altium, which to my manager is a very important point and he basically won't let me choose Pulsonix; which to me appears to be a reasonable, significantly cheaper and far less bloated alternative to Altium Designer.The local distributor gave a demo of Altium about a half a year ago, and to me it appeared to have a tendency to be brittle with that 'Compile' option. What happens if you forget that? And resetting all components identifiers back to ? takes a couple of seconds? Back in 1996 that same operation was basically instant in Orcad Capture. And with the nearly universal complaints of age old buts, instability and bloatness I'm not really looking forward to using it.On other hand I have no hands on experience with Altium, so I can't dismiss it, and there still is a fair chance I might actually like it

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 06:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: jeroen74 on January 30, 2016, 06:32:37 pmAt least Pulsonix has import filters for Altium designs:http://pulsonix.com/importfilters.aspQuoteSo why does it matter? Your in-house designer will simply use/learn Pulsonix instead of learning Altium.I use Altium ............. but I dislike it. If I had my time again, I would have searched out a different professional pcb design tool.ADDED: Pulsonix have a 100 pin version available at no cost. This is a full version with no crippling:http://pulsonix.com/softwaredownloadrequest.asp

author: jeroen74
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 07:32:36 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on January 30, 2016, 06:56:24 pmI know Pulsonix has a trial version, I used it to try it out.Which package we choose does matter, because in case our in-house designer (who happens to be me) is not available for whatever reason we can subcontract the work to an external party or hire a designer, and with Pulsonix that company or person is likely not as (directly) productive as with Altium. I did some research on this, and I found only two companies (ranging from one-man shops to bigger ones) out of about 12 in The Netherlands that support Pulsonix, and all supported Altium (and PADS, the other alternative proposed by my manager).In my opinion this all is a valid concern, but not that big that we as a money-starved company should spend €5000 more for a program that basically is not better for our needs.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 12:21:57 am
content: Quote from: jeroen74 on January 30, 2016, 07:32:36 pmSimply get the sub-contract company to use their copy of Altium. After all, they have paid for it already.You can use the free Altium viewer to check their design.QuoteGet a full quote for the modules you require from Pulsonix then contact Altium direct & ask them if they will match it.Also take a look at Proteus. The developers are just across the channel from you in the UK. I prefer this package over Altium.I read Donald Kay's positive review of Proteus some years back. I contacted him in Adelaide & we discussed Altium at length. We both have copies of Altium & we were both pretty unhappy with it.I then began using Proteus & have never looked back. I still use Altium for some legacy designs, but I still dislike it. I also use DipTrace but it is not as powerful as either Altium of Proteus.Donald's positive review can be found here on the Proteus website:http://www.labcenter.com/products/pcb/pcb_overview.cfm"PCB design is our business. We review PCB layout software on an ongoing basis and Labcenter has topped the list for the last 10 years. Certainly the most productive and very, very affordable. We have licences for other very expensive products but they don't get much use."One of the "other very expensive products" he refers to is Altium.And his company website can be found here:https://www.donalan.com.au/Just some further thoughts for you

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 12:27:56 am
content: I use KiCad no complaints, but Altium might be better on the resume.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 02:20:08 am
content: HiOk, so here's a twist to your original question:If I own a license to one or the other of these, which one can I start making money off of sometime next month? I think the answers that have shown up already in this thread give you a pretty good handle on that. Am I suggesting self employment as your main source of income? Nope. Am I suggesting that a little extra money now and then might come in handy? Yes indeed I am.Bob

author: mstevens
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 04:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: ehughes on January 30, 2016, 04:55:46 pmGood to hear that you were able to get a license, hopefully relatively inexpensively. You were probably just lucky though or perhaps Altium has changed their policy. The cost of an Altium licenses IMHO is significant. I would not want to see someone purchase a license, not use it, want to sell it, and then not be able to sell it, particularly if it is not being used. I am a long time license owner, have owned since Protell 99. I would urge the OP to checkhttps://forum.live.altium.com/#posts/205360and other Altium forum topics on the issue. If the OP might want to resale in the future, I would get it in writing from Altium.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 05:10:57 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on January 25, 2016, 07:08:54 pmMakes me wonder why nobody uses rubylith or tape anymore... After all, a good designer should be able to use even pencil and paper ...It's all about productivity. You try making a 8 layer board that has complex design rules in terms if widths and clearances, matched impedance , and has to mesh with a complex mechanical assembly.See how much effort is needed doing that with rubylith. Do the same in a proper cad tool where you exchange the 3d model so positioning is correct , enter the design rules so the cad tool verifies the rules are met, and then export the design to Ansoft, Maxwell, Comsol and Sherlock so you can run electromagnetic, thermal, power integrity and reliability simulations.Pull the results of those simulations back in then close the backend running DFM on Valor.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 05:30:13 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 31, 2016, 05:10:57 pmHiYou could add to that exporting your > 400 part BOM from the schematic straight into the documentation system. Can you do it with pencil and paper? Sure, been there / done that. It's the same thing as tape. By the time you get to the end of the process .... something has fallen off (un-noticed) from earlier in the operation. It's no easier to spot that mis-transcribed number than it is to catch the missing pad on layer 7. I've made both mistakes often enough to know.Do I do 8 (or 12 or 16) layers here at home - most certainly not. Same thing with parts lists that number in the many hundreds. Work .. that's a different story. My needs here at home are different than my needs at work.Bob

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: jeroen74 on January 30, 2016, 06:32:37 pmI'd still go for a package which offers the best user experience for you. Decades ago Ultiboard and Ulticrap where the standard go-to packages in the NL even though they where total crap! If you can work quickly with a package you won't even need to outsource and thus saving more money.

author: jeroen74
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 02, 2016, 08:21:08 pmWhere I work PCB design is not our core business. There's about a dozen PCB designs in the machine we are developing, and a few years ago I inherited those designs which were all done by external parties (most done in CadStar). Now and then these PCBs need to be updated, or, in case of a design or three, completely redesigned.A while ago it was decided that layout work will no longer be outsourced and that we'll purchase our own EDA package. Unfortunately a few weeks ago this purchase has been put on hold until business becomes better.It seems my boss is afraid that no one will be able to work on a Pulsonix design in case I'm sick or something like that; it's easier to get someone productive immediately with a big well known brand like Altium or PADS, instead of that obscure Pulsonix which the interim PCB designs needs to learn to work with (and charges more probably).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 10:22:14 pm
content: How complex are these designs? A couple of years ago I had to do some changes on a design made in Layo1. It turned out to be quicker to just redo the entire board in Orcad Layout than to muck about with Layo1 even though I have hundreds of hours worth of experience with Layo1. Most of the work in a PCB layout (say 80%) is component placement anyway.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 01:27:38 am
content: HiIf you change programs, count on having them both around for a while. Going in to change a silk screen note on the old program is way lots easier than importing the whole blasted thing into the new program *and* verifying that nothing changed. As the old boards die out, so does the old program. Some number of years down the road, you import the last board into the new program and you are done with the conversion.=====Yes, you can also throw piles of money at it and outsource the conversions. If you do that, outsource the conversion to one guy and outsource the verification to an independent group. Do not simply trust that it all will be perfect with only one set o eyes looking at it.Bob

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 02:20:56 am
content: Another much less expensive option to Altium is CADint from the USA. This is powerful software without the high Altium price tag.The full version is US$2900, the light version (1000 pins) US$1495, the 2 layer only version US$720 & the 4 layer option US$1440.They offer a "Competitive Upgrade" from other packages for US$1995.Annual support is extra if you require it.http://cadint.com/Order/It appears you can buy the CADint cut down versions much cheaper from their Swedish arm ie 2 layer version is 5000SEK = ~US$585. Perhaps there is a catch to this that is not obvious.http://www.cadint.se/p_2L.aspA good selection of import filters are offered:http://cadint.com/12-Reasons/"CADint can import ASCII data from several platforms such as Visula, CADstar, PADs, EEDesigner, P?CAD, Protel, Tango, and Edwin, very soon Orcad layout. Example: You import an Orcad schematic and a Pad’s design, NOW using the features in #2 above you can match the two different packages to be 100% True Bi?Directional."You can either save existing Altium files in Protel or P-CAD to then be able to import them into CADint.Just a thought.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2016, 06:03:05 pm
content: I have never seen really good imports from other formats so I would take the ability for package A to be able to read files from package B with many grains of salt. Especially if you want to edit an imported design.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2016, 06:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 04, 2016, 06:03:05 pmHiThis is one of those "do not trust" and "always verify" situations.All of these guys tweak their formats over time. I can't directly read projects created on a version of the same package from 2 years ago. I go through a mumbo jumbo "upgrade" process and maybe it can be used. Trying to track that sort of thing from the "outside" .... not easy at all. If you do decide to buy based on import capability, make sure you see it work before you spend any money.Bob

author: jmcdonald
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 11:40:15 am
content: At work we were using Altium but 12 months ago i started using kicad at home and now we are using it at work. I find it adequate and any way to boss would not buy a legal copy of Altium.So far i have completed 5 different pcbs and produced 59 individual pcbs (6 from oshpark) with on problems.

author: Rutger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 06:39:51 pm
content: I have tried many different PCB softwares, I find Kicad ok, but it has some pitfalls ( I can't remember what happened, but the PCB I got back from the fab had mistakes, and they were not showing up in Kicad).I have settled on Altium (not a quite legal copy though, see pirate bay, but it is only for hobby stuff) after using the free version of altium calledhttp://circuitmaker.com/.I would recommend you download the circuitmaker version and play around with it, you can do anything you can in Kicad, but ones you get serious you can transition easily into Altium.Save often with circuitmaker, because I have heard that once it fails (and it still has some bugs) you can loose your days work.One of the best features of Altium I like is the 3D viewer, it can really help you with PCB design, think of mechanical issues like the size of components and how they interfere with other components.

author: Obi_Kwiet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 11:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: ehughes on January 30, 2016, 04:55:46 pmSerious in this case would need to mean owning a company where you design a significant number of boards. 8k$ isn't a financially practical investment to get a little extra side experience for a job interview. Doing a couple of jobs on any layout software will familiarize you with the process. Let the company pay to train you on the specific tool.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 01:25:55 am
content: Quote from: Rutger on March 01, 2016, 06:39:51 pmHiOk so in the context of the OP who is looking for something on his resume:Big Boss: I see you have experience with Altium?Poor victim: Yes, I have a copy and have done a lot of work with it.Big Boss: Have you ever done this this and this?Poor victim: Yes, indeed I have.Big Boss: Great, that's what we use if for.Big Boss: One last question .. where did you get your copy of the software?Poor victim: I stole a a copy because I figured I would not get caught.Big Boss: End of interview, please wait here while we call the software police.Bottom line, no matter what benefit you *might* get from having experience with this vs that package .. it's nothing compared to the automatic disqualification you get for stealing it. Worse yet, the kind of place that *won't* disqualify you is *not* the kind of place you would ever want to work (assuming you care about paychecks bouncing and that sort of stuff ...).Bob

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 01:38:40 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 12, 2016, 01:30:17 amHiOk so:......Poor victim: I bought an academic copy from "Bob's Discount Software".Big Boss: Were you a student at the time?Poor victim: No i was not.Big Boss: End of interview-----At least in the countries I am familiar with hiring in, the process is much more finely tuned towards issues like integrity and trust than towards technical details. At least in the US and Europe, the "stolen software" issue is much more likely to trip you up than anything else.Bob

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 02:27:40 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 12, 2016, 02:12:07 amHiWe are not talking about patent issues here. In that case, you take a risk and pay up when you loose in court. In this case we are talking about a job interview. It is not a "get your day in court" process where your lawyers argue with their lawyers. It's a short simple process. You get no appeal on the decision. It just comes to an abrupt end and nobody tells you why.You are applying for a job that gives you direct access to a companies IP. If they have anything worth protecting, they *are* going to be very sensitive to the "trust" issue. Any red flags in this area are not something you want to have. If it's a point system, you get +1 for experience on a package from the tech guy. You get -100 points on "trustworthy" from the rest of the interview group.Bob

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 02:48:30 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 12, 2016, 02:39:01 amHiI am *not* suggesting that spending $8K on a software package for personal use is a good idea. What I suggesting is that (at least over here) you should avoid things on your resume that lead to "is this guy a crook?" sort of doubts or questions. There are a lot of comments in this thread about "I have a not quite legal copy ...". That is not the sort of thing you want to have come out in a job interview.Bob

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 06:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: uncle_bob on March 12, 2016, 02:48:30 amThat depends on where you are living indeed. In the NL nobody will think less of you if you use a cracked copy for your hobby projects or to hone your skills in your spare time. Ofcourse Altium, Cadence, etc will never ever endorse this publicly but I'm sure they very much prefer hobbyists to use cracked copies of their products instead of Kicad. Installed base and people knowing your product are very important for a wide adoption. At some point many of these people will have a voice in what a company should buy.