Seriously, why would anyone consider anything else than Rigol? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 12:45:44 pm
content: Hi, it's time for a new 200 MHz oscillosope and I have a serious question, that is, I really don't know.Why would I consider other brands than Rigol, if Rigol is good, time proven, and cheap?Why woult it be worth to pay more to get a Rohde&Schwarz, GW Instek or something like that?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 12:51:14 pm
content: Must have features required might be a good place to start for best recommendations.

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 12:54:57 pm
content: Currently even a basic model would satisfy my needs. But it may turn out that I need some more advanced features in the future. I just can't imagine what it might be.For sure, I need stable and bug free firmware.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 12:58:55 pm
content: 2 or 4 channels ?

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:00:08 pm
content: I can live with 2

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:04:47 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 01:00:08 pmDecent memory depth or only enough for basic tasks ?1 or 2 GSa/s ?MSO capability ?

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:08:46 pm
content: I don't need MSO/DSO. 1 GSa/s seems to be enough. Simple I2C/SPI/RS232 decoding would be nice. 1M or so memory depth as well.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 01:08:46 pmOK, just a basic DSO with decoding.Look up SDS1202X-E or the new Rigol equivalent released as competition for it.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:16:52 pm
content: The only viable alternative would be Siglent.But not the A-brand manufacturers.Keysight, Tektronix, LeCroy, R&S are all overpriced for the hobbyist.So where do the A-brands come in then?If your boss or your school pays.If you have money to spare.If you don't do your homework.If you just want to show off with your A-brand, and you really don't know what you are doing with an oscilloscope.If you are dumb.It's like those photographers who have an expensive Nikon or Canon camera, and they don´t even know the basics of photography.If you can do a good deal on a second hand A-brand oscilloscope, then it's a different story of course!

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:23:07 pm
content: Thanks, Guys.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:23:29 pm
content: The primary point I would give to the modern siglents is really fast SCPI processing, but if you don't use it, then its not really a factor for you,e.g. throwing 8 thousand commands at the thing at line speed, and have it feed back the answers in a few seconds (way overkill, but I was testing to see what broke first)

author: SmokedComponent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:26:08 pm
content: I chose SDS1104X-E over similar Rigol (was considering it also) purely because of... looks.I know Siglent isn't a looker, but at least it doesn't look toy-like like Rigol. </rant>More seriously, all things being more or less equal for my needs, I liked Siglent more because of 200Mhz hack and web server which allows me to make screenshots directly to PC easily. Maybe Rigol has that, too, but then again... the looks...

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:27:58 pm
content: Can SDS1202X-E be unlocked to a higher bandwith?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: SmokedComponent on July 06, 2020, 01:26:08 pmYes well the SDS1104X-E does have a few more features than its 2ch sibling however it's ~50% more $ and just 100 MHz unless you hack it.Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 01:27:58 pmNo, it's all out @ 200 MHz.....well ~225 MHz is it's -3dB point.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 12:54:57 pmWell, there is your number 1 reason not to choose for Rigol.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:35:44 pm
content: Michal, 1st decide your budget! Then these people will help.

author: Ctrlocti
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 06, 2020, 01:16:52 pmFlagship Canon/Nikon is entry level A-brand scope prices. I think the Canon one is less than 7k USD.Don't get me wrong, I get your point and agree with it. Just emphasizing how crazy expensive (relatively) the A-brands go for. It's really aimed a professional/corporate environment. You are not buying just good tech, you are buying the support (most of the time anyway).The hobbyist market is an insignificant speck for the A-brands.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 02:38:32 pm
content: If your number 1 reason is an oscilloscope with a toy look, then you can go for GW-InstekQuote from: nctnico on July 06, 2020, 01:31:22 pm

author: Ctrlocti
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 02:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 06, 2020, 02:38:32 pmI was going to say that you are exaggerating but then.... yikesThat's a terrible layout. The screen looks so small and cramped while the controls are so spaced apart. It looks bizarre

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 02:56:14 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 06, 2020, 01:16:52 pmA second hand A brand can be a good choice for a hobbyist... often simpler (just from being older), and generally does what it says on the can in a stable and professional way.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 02:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: Ctrlocti on July 06, 2020, 02:51:46 pmGiven that modern scopes have added so much more information on their screens compared to traditional models, it is outright ridiculous that they attempt to keep the same screen size as the old ones. Any modern scope should have the biggest screen that reasonably fits the front panel - anything less is simply not good enough!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 03:04:57 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 06, 2020, 02:38:32 pmI don't get why tools need to look good. It's not a fashion accessory. Tools just need to get the job done in an efficient way. In fact, the shinier the tool, the shitier it usually is to work with.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 03:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2020, 03:04:57 pmI would normally agree with you on that.... but wow what an eye sore that thing is lol.. too much color clashing making it hard to look at; biggest detractor though would be all the empty space unused and wasted where that could have been given to screen size if not trying to do the 4 control alignment over the inputs

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 03:51:12 pm
content: I know Rigol doesn't keep up with Siglent's light speed addressing of software bugs and glitches mainly thanks to Tautech's ability to badger the factory into actionHowever if you look back through the threads for bugs on these machines you may find the differenices are not so many.Like Rigol a lot, six units of various abilities I own plus a dedicated R&D scope which is pretty good but its costs were significantly more make no mistake. Does it perform better than the Rigol yes no question, however the Rigol does not disgrace itself in any way and for an everyday mid range scope is rather good and I use it every single day it is accurate enough for 85% of my requirements. But with everything in life the last few percents of performance cost the most.Bug wise I understand NCTNICO position completely if you are running sensitive experiments that require stability accuracy and repeatability for a company then Keysight/Lecroy/R&S are where you need to be. Hence why I have Wavepro for those VIP investigations no argument. That said the MSO8000 I have only found one annoying bug (now Reg has left the room) and its been 100% spot on even giving some of the A brand boys more than a run for their money in certain areas of scope performance. Yet it is feature rich and pretty good reliable and dependable results.The 5000 is a great scope, as is the Siglent alternative, both scopes have a good fan base here you will not go wrong with either one imho

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 03:55:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2020, 03:04:57 pmI think that's basic human nature (I think many men are related to the Peacock species, feeling a strong need to put on a display!).E.g. why does a car has to look good, instead of just being utilitarian?Why do we like art?Complicated discussion!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 04:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: Elasia on July 06, 2020, 03:49:03 pmThe remark about the form factor is a valid one but the picture is a rather old model. The newer GW Instek models have 16:9 displays with the knobs much closer together. But not that close that it becomes cumbersome to operate.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 04:40:42 pm
content: There is a polish shop you can ask for the price, they are cheaper then others : sos-electronics.Others all have the same price i think because of illegal setting of prices.Go for it.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 05:18:23 pm
content: I bought Rigol on Dave's recommendation. I came a gutser when the warranty expired together with the encoders.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 05:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 06, 2020, 02:58:33 pmWell, the high end has already gone that way. But that drives up the BOM cost to put in a bigger panel, so I wouldn't hold my breath on the bargain bin models following suit anytime soon.

author: tomato
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 05:24:20 pm
content: QuoteWhy would anyone consider anything other than a $10 voltmeter?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 05:46:05 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 12:45:44 pmIf you had some serious idea of what you wanted the scope to do (or not do) your question would have an answer. There are countless threads here regarding the attributes, highlights and shortcomings of cheap scopes. However, the way you asked your question and titled this thread is silly and ignorant. Just because you can't imagine why someone would spend more money than the cheapest option doesn't mean there aren't perfectly good reasons to do so. I'm guessing you are a ways off from even being able to understand those reasons, so stick around and read the other threads, perhaps you'll learn something.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 05:47:38 pm
content: Quote from: tomato on July 06, 2020, 05:24:20 pmIgnorant fanboys that just want that Fluke name badge, of course!

author: Alex P
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 07:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 12:45:44 pmI had a Rigol. Press a button, waitsix secondsfor something to happen. That way my Rigol got in the way of what I wanted to do so I sold it and got something better (yes, more expensive as well).That's why.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 07:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: Ctrlocti on July 06, 2020, 02:51:46 pmActually the controls are so spaced apart on purpose so the channel knobs are aligned with the input. IMHO that's a great feature.

author: Ctrlocti
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 07:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on July 06, 2020, 07:38:12 pmyou mean it's great because of the symmetry aesthetics or is there another reason you like it?

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 08:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: Ctrlocti on July 06, 2020, 07:56:48 pmMaybe not great aesthetically, but function wise makes a lot of sense

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 09:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2020, 01:31:22 pmYep. Siglent hasn't had a single firmware update since release. That thing about mailing little packets of capacitors to people so they could solder them to the motherboard to fix things? We must have dreamed it...Seriously though, the Rigol is sorted out now (and has been for quite a long time).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 09:08:17 pm
content: Quote from: Alex P on July 06, 2020, 07:21:01 pmWhat thing was that?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 09:42:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 06, 2020, 09:05:16 pmTalking out of your arse again Fungus ?

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 11:30:53 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 06, 2020, 09:42:40 pmtv84 and i have already chopped up a few patches to their SDS2k+ and SSA3k+ lines in the last few months.. whatever is latest released is where to expect firmware updates.. as their gear ages out then yeah they tend to drop off firmware updates, also some lines get way less love than their bread and butter items.. *cough* spd

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 11:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: Elasia on July 06, 2020, 11:30:53 pmPM me with changes/improvements that need be made and I'll forward them on to the factory.Do qualify them against the FW version installed.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 12:04:30 am
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 12:45:44 pmI'm trying to figure out why I'd buy theRigol DS4024Efor $2,400 when theKeysight DSX1204Gwith 200 MHz input bandwidth is $2,000 and gives me a signal generator I'd actually use.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 12:22:38 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 06, 2020, 09:05:16 pmI dreamed that? It seemed awfully real - more like a nightmare, I was that pissed off buyer...

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 02:08:38 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 06, 2020, 11:37:51 pmNothing that others havent already complained about... it could use a bit more universal scpi especially around the linefeed sillyness.. it should accept either to match whatever terminal emulation is coming from the client; two its processing is slow as molasses to accept commands, some sort of queuing would be nice to be able to tell it i want x voltage with y current limit for duration xAnd maybe thats more due to the hardware itself but maybe they could look at improving that whenever they release a new spd; would be nice if they offered something with more amperage like 0-10A per channel or stacked to make 1 20A

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 02:32:10 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 07, 2020, 12:04:30 amI have a DS4014 that can be hacked to full 500MHz and the RP3500 probes are reasonably good. This model was plagued with bugs in its initial versions (reason why it gets quite a bad rap around here) but the last firmware is quite solid.I don't have the Keysight, but I played with one during a demo visit at my company. It is responsive (their major benefit), super compact and light and is quite feature packed. However, I really disliked the wide screen with rectangular graticule (the Rigol has 14 square divisions), the small memory (the Rigol has up to 140Mpts, which I need for my work) and the somewhat cramped front panel (understandable given the small form factor, but the Rigol has independent controls).If you live in North America, you can also check their clearance bin athttps://www.rigolna.com/clearance/- I got mine from there about five years ago and it came fully furnished with four new 500MHz probes.

author: Ctrlocti
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 05:28:33 am
content: Quote from: stafil on July 06, 2020, 08:15:11 pmHmm, you are being too spartan with your words, I'm not getting what advantage it gives you over a bigger screen.To me, something like the Waverunner is the tits. 15in display, controls on the side. Now if only someone made that in 4 channels, 100mhz for $1-2k...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 09:13:25 am
content: Quote from: Elasia on July 07, 2020, 02:08:38 amDocument it all properly and I'll put it forward.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 10:16:47 am
content: Nothing in the Rigol range ticks my boxes.I'd prefer a handheld.Handle 240VacHave decent playback memory.Screen that is visible in full sunScreen that has a perfect backlight in full darknessLiPo battery usb charge or at least AAs.Minimal friggen buttons.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 11:27:52 am
content: Quote from: Elasia on July 06, 2020, 11:30:53 pmIn the end you don't get what you don't pay for. Even in China software engineers are expensive. If people continue to buy products with unfinished firmware (and even cheer if they get a bone thrown to them in form of a partial fix) nothing will change.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 11:38:36 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 07, 2020, 11:27:52 amSure, but according to the resident Siglent salesmen the Siglent world is all perfect with rainbows and Unicorns. It isn't, it's just one step up from Rigol (with matching step in price).You want bug-free devices, with telephone support? They ain't it.

author: robca
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 06:18:36 pm
content: The OP saysQuote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 01:08:46 pmJust thought to mention that a ~$10 eBay 8 channels logic probe with sigrok can do protocol decoding for pretty much anything, and usually a logic probe is a better tool to analyze digital protocols.For 20+ years as a hobbyist I happily used a 1980s era Hitachi V-1065 100MHz dual trace analog oscilloscope and a cheap logic analyzer, and I almost never found the tools to be limiting (mostly was my skill level). I see plenty of decent 60-100MHz analog oscilloscopes on Craigslist locally for slightly more than $100 or so.I recently found a too-good-to-pass deal on a barely used DS2072A (upgraded to 300MHz now) and the main benefit for me has been the reclaimed desk space. Clearly it's a much better scope than the one it replaced and has plenty of new useful functions. But the cheap eBay logic probe still sees a lot of use, nonethelessIf the OP doesn't really know what s/he wants, maybe a cheap used scope would be a good starting point to learn more and, one day, know exactly what it's needed in a scope. Not to mention that every year that goes by, better and cheaper entry-level scopes are available

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 06:26:17 pm
content: Quote from: robca on July 07, 2020, 06:18:36 pmTrue, but it won't let you see if your pullup resistors are the right values.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 06:41:03 pm
content: Quote from: Ctrlocti on July 07, 2020, 05:28:33 amOh, no, I didn't mean I would trade it over the big screen. I agree with you and the rest of the comments on all other points.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 07:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 12:45:44 pmYou might want an alternative, and pay more for it, if the Rigol could not perform a specific function or make a specific measurement that you want, like for example measuring RMS noise, or decoding from the acquisition record instead of the display record.In my case, Rigol's DSOs do not do anything I want better than my existing DSOs while an oscilloscope from Rhode & Schwarz would.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 10:48:32 pm
content: I have many scopes. 95% of what I do is easier, faster, and one push button operation using Siglent. The remaining 5%, I have to rely on other scopes and more/less purpose made equipment. Today's "cheap" scopes are amazingly capable. If Rigol suits you fine, then go for it. When you find its limitations, you will know more than enough to determine what you actually need.Tek scopes of last decade and earlier used very high quality parts. I'd imagine parts cost alone will exceed the whole purchase price of Siglent/Rigol. But such is not as affordable. So have to take that into consideration as well.Something kind of interesting I tried not too long ago. I was looking at a very fast rising square wave. I had something like 10 probes - all compensated to that scope. Some are Tek, some are generic. Tek probes were all pretty close. Generic ones read wildly differently! This, you can see for yourself.I really don't have a point to make. Get what you can afford. Get what works for your project, I guess.

author: robca
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 12:42:49 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 07, 2020, 06:26:17 pmIndeed. But you don't need an I2C decoder on the scope to do that either. As a matter of fact, my old analog scope was good enough for that purpose (with some challenges with finding a proper trigger point in some cases. That could be easily solved by sending regular data on the I2C bus). I was pointing out that the decoding part can be done (usually better) by a logic probe. Also, with only 2 channels you can't do SPI, let alone parallel buses, so there's always a point where having a logic probe (esp one as cheap as you can get now) is a must have for anyone playing with digital logicAnd cheap logic probes don't work for 1.8V logic, unless you also use level shifters. So a cheap logic probe is by no means perfect. But for most people using 5V and 3.3V, really a must have

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 05:42:00 am
content: Quote from: robca on July 08, 2020, 12:42:49 amNo. Often the problem is more subtile and in the analog domain. Having decoding on an oscilloscope is worth the money for development purposes. If there is no I2C problem then you can do the debugging of an embedded application at a much higher level. IOW: when doing development there is very little use for a logic analyser to look at busses. A logic analyser is only useful for doing reverse engineering; in that case the I2C bus is known to be good and you are only interested in the data.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 09:19:50 am
content: Quote from: Alex P on July 06, 2020, 07:21:01 pmAgree. Also looking at scopes to buy, and Rigol do seems to have good hardware, and also for a much lower prices than anyone else (perhaps connection to CCP party gives the debated subsidies for Rigol to sell scopes outside of China below manufacturing prices). No complaints at the hardware side on Rigol.It is the software side that lack the polish and optimizations that I would have liked to see. For some reasons software engineering seems to be harder to match for some brands (especially Asian, but not always). Seems to be much easier for them to get up to a good hardware standard than software standard. No idea why (seems strange).Also; the design; ugly as hell!They really need to hire an industrial designer to make them a little bit more professional looking. Today it is a total disaster.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 09:25:05 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 06, 2020, 09:05:16 pmMissed that one. What was up with the capacitors??Where we as customers supposed to fix some new scopes, or was it a fix for older series?I think, just like with Rigol, that Siglent seems to makegreathardware today. No complaints from me, and far from the Atten and Din Young days (with more dubious quality control and poorer design choices). It its generally only on the software side they sometimes messes up.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 10:15:01 am
content: QuoteSomething to do with the frontend, user got capacitors in the mail to solder in place. I'd be surprised (but don't know for sure) if Siglent wouldn't do it FOR you but then there's a lot of time (and money) lost in shipping etc.And there's SDM3055 where users have been promised an update forquite some timeand the old SDS2000 (IIRC) which was abandoned, leaving users in the dark and the EBAY debacle when someone got in trouble for trying to sell their old unit and most likely a whole lot of other "stuff". So, Rigol is far from perfect but it's not like it's all good and well on the Siglent side of things either.Another pet peeve of mine in these sorts of discussions: Refering to devices (scopes, DMMs whatever) as "the Rigol", "the Keysight", "the Siglent" etc is really bad when it's not clear that it's this or that specific model you're talking about. For example, over and over again it's stated the "the Rigol" can't decode from acquisition memory" yet "my Rigol" (a DS4000) does that just fine which I've shown on this very forum and although it's not the fastest GUI around it sure doesn't take 6 seconds for something to happen. So if "your Rigol" takes 6 seconds to respond which model is that? It's not like they're all the same.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 10:38:27 am
content: Quote from: martinot on July 08, 2020, 09:19:50 amYou are smearing on a thick layer of propaganda here. American and European manufacturers are also subsidised, including scope manufacturers, in various ways.So why pick on China - is it that you psychologically need an enemy to make yourself feel better about your own life?

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 05:21:35 pm
content: I was an early purchaser of a brand new Siglent SDS1202X-E. When changing Y range AROUND 1V/div, the probe compensation went all wonky and you had to perform probe compensation - yes all that messing around with a screwdriver to get good square waves. Turns out there were capacitors missing off the main PCB. I asked Siglent to fix for me but they wouldn't but instead sent me capacitors - then they told me that, if I broke the seals, I would invalidate my warranty - fuck that!I escalated and was, at first, told I was SOL, eventually after a LOT of emails, they purchased it back from me. I have since unburdened myself of all Siglent gear.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 05:37:32 pm
content: Gandalf_Sr, I had never heard that episode.What a nightmare of customer care!?!?!

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 06:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 08, 2020, 05:37:32 pmIt's still available on catch-up!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1324788/#msg1324788

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 10:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on July 08, 2020, 05:21:35 pmThat's unbelievable -- but I believe you. And your solution seems to be wise, as expected from a Wizard.

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 11:05:56 pm
content: Wow, that's crazy of what they expect you to do. They should not expect owners to have the equipment or skills to dismantle the equipment and solder SMD, plus the whole warranty seal ordeal. Now I understand why you prefer Rigol, I would have returned it and bought something else as well.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 11:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 06, 2020, 01:16:52 pmIt's a bit silly to pretend the choice for A-brands is only driven by ego or incompetence. There are plenty of practical reasons to go with A-brand tools. Having support and calibration services is important if you do any kind of serious work and the trust you can have in them too. Although top brands do make crap products and budget brands make good products the quality and liveability of top tier equipment is often less hit and miss. That can matter when the tool is a means to an end and you need to get on with a job.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:06:25 am
content: I must protest this as what is right is really up to the user. Further a lot about what is right about a scope is how the user interacts with it.An analogy:Most of use might think that it is silly to spend $150 on a ratchet to work on our cars. Others professional or not may disagree, a lot of the time it comes down to subtle things about how the tool works. So too with electronic instruments it often comes down to personal preference!!!Now all of that being said I still don't understand why a hobbyist would buy a brand new scope anyways. Especially somebody new to the hobby and still not sure of their direction.Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 06, 2020, 01:16:52 pmThat is nonsense. It is up to the hobbyist to determine how much is too much and how well a specific device will fit his interest. I run around in the cheapest pickup that meets my needs while others spend hug bucks on 4x4's and never get them dirty. Is the guy that pays an extra $30,000 wrong? The difference in price of an A line scope vs a Chinese scopes isn't that great, compared to what many piss away on high end vehicles.Similarly people around here spend lots of money on backyard pools that barely get used 3 weeks out of the year. A hobbyist might use a scope twice a week all year long, so which is a better spend on money?QuoteIt is really up to the buyer to determine priorities for his money. But when it comes right down to it the price of an A line scope is peanuts over the lifetime that the owner may have it. Especially when compared to other spend that a person might have.QuoteActually it is often the opposite, it is the people that really know what they are doing that carefully shop for their tools.QuoteActually both Cannon an Nikon covered a wide array of users until the advent of phones with camera. This isn't just a thing with cameras though. Here is a little tibit about people with things they can't handle:A few years ago out, on highway 104, I came to a stop at an intersection in my little pickup. Along side came a little Porsche. I figure great I can have a little fun while it lasts. So the light changes green and I give that little engine a punch knowing full well that the Porsche could blow me off no problem. What happened? Well the guy driving the Porsche missed a gear not once but twice. I had to let up on the gas, and frankly was disappointed with that guys driving.So does his lack of ability to drive the Porsche means he shouldn't own one? Maybe the guy was learning or had other issues, I really don't know.In the context of a scope, something you might own for 20 years, does it really hurt to start out learning the device from the ground floor? It might take some time learning to "shift" from menu to menu but even if that takes 2 years you still got 18 years of ownership ahead of you.QuoteI've yet to grasp why everybody thinks they have to buy new!!!! That applies to any scope from any manufacture and frankly a lot of other instruments. If somebody is focuses on new I'm still of the opinion that a good multimeter is a far better use of somebodies "new" tool budget. This especially for somebody new to the hobby that doesn't have well defined interests.Part of my reasoning here is that a good multimeter has uses beyond the hobby bench for somebody with the technical ability to use. The fact is life gets into the way of hobby's and sometimes you just don't have the time. However things break around the house or even the car, a multimeter helps keeps you running. It is a useful household tool just like hammers, screwdrivers and the like.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:10:55 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 06, 2020, 05:47:38 pmSadly people on both sides of the fence seem to think that way. My response when somebody asks; is to always buy a Fluke if you need a handheld meter. Is that being a fanboy or jut a reflection of years of industrial experience and being treated well by Fluke. Some companies earn their reputations.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 07:14:10 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 08, 2020, 11:12:55 pmThis is well said. Just to add, some hobbyists will have advanced knowledge , and some will have no clue and all in between. Those with limited knowledge will have little use for advanced features.Quote from: wizard69 on July 09, 2020, 06:10:55 amNo you're not wrong, Fluke and Keysight are great, but you are privileged citizen of rich country who can't even grasp fact that price of Fluke 87 is the price of monthly salary of menial worker in my country. And my country is far from being poorest there is. It's just not rich.Also just some responses to you in general.Quote from: wizard69 on July 09, 2020, 06:06:25 amQuality of noname tools became so high lately that it makes no sense anymore for hobbyist to just buy most expensive tools. Duty cycle of occasional use makes cheap tools last long time anyways, and if anything is damaged it's cheap to replace.If I use tool every day, I will buy pro quality tool. Fora tool that gets used only occasionally, i just buy something that does the job. It will last long time because it's not being used much.Quote from: wizard69 on July 09, 2020, 06:10:55 amThis was done to death before. Only f***ing country that has used instrument market that makes any sense is USA. In rest of the world only choice isnewinexpensive. Or expensive.Quote from: wizard69 on July 09, 2020, 06:10:55 amYou're confusing concept of freedom and concept of smart rational choice. You have freedom to act stupidly. But that fact doesn't make it smart. Actually, it makes it worse. You had choice, and you deliberately made choice to be stupid. It's double stupid. Freedom of choice isnotlegitimization ofanychoice to be consideredequally good. Only equallypossible.And yes, people that buy 30000$ 4X4 and never get them dirty ARE stupid. And assholes that damage environment, make road traffic unsafe to others... Not to mention that they could have bought more appropriate vehicle and put 10000$ in their kids college fund. Or fed some of so many hungry children even USA is full of.. And they would still commute the same.And just to give you "unamerican" point of view, many people in Europe are looking at those 4 times too big houses with those never used pools (that are useless, because most of them are not big enough for you to swim in them) and think these people are, well,retarded, for the lack of the better word.I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just blunt, as you are in your simplistic views, and to show you how non USA people think. Many of those things you attacked in in Pascals biased opinions you opposed with your bias... And I don't even agree with Pascal... I made comments to him before...Hope you don't get it the wrong way, just being honest.All the best,

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:25:15 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on July 08, 2020, 05:21:35 pmThere is essentially a divide between correct compensation produced without the capacitors. Compensation holds well but there is a weird step around that setting. (I haven't checked it myself, but there was a detailed post here covering the issue.)QuoteThey deliberately removed them. Presumably a QA screw-up of the 'It seems fine without these, so lets save two cents' type.QuoteTautech offered to do the necessary work and cover shipping. Warranty wouldn't be affected. Where did you buy yours?I have bought multiple 3D printers from AliExpress. Some were fine, some had varying levels of minor problems. The most expensive one has caused me massive headaches just trying to get it to work properly (including bricking the display while trying to upgrade firmware to a hoped-for usable level). It presently works almost as well as the worst of the two cheap ones I have... hooray. Sometimes you get bit if you're trying to buy based on cost. (Nobody resells these here, but my point is to buy local if you want support.)QuoteThe frustration level depends on your usage, I guess. If it's a PITA for you then it's a major problem.I haven't yet fixed mine. Didn't even remember to ask for the capacitors until recently.It's probably the same for people happy with the older Rigol 'scopes. The super-slow UI / lack of response drives me nuts, but if you aren't using that UI much...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:42:13 am
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on July 09, 2020, 08:25:15 amOh good, so you got the caps ?Getting low on them now.And you should get that PSU soon I hope....maybe even tomorrow. Check the tracking first thing tomorrow.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 09:17:51 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 09, 2020, 07:14:10 amAlthough I agree with many of the ideas laid out by wizard69, what 2N3055 says above is an ESSENTIAL FACTOR that, most of the times, I see US guys here not realizing.Theeconomic differences between countries are hugeand even the Siglent/Rigols that get beaten over here all-day are complete Rolls Royces for many other countries.BUT, as important,the used market outside US is pratically non-existentand, IMHO, some US members are so accostumed to it that they have their mindset (subconscioully) biased. I'm not bashing that, I wish I could do the same, but it's totally impossible to me.I don't hang out in TEA (although maybe I should...) but you can have a testimony of what I'm saying by looking at the usual citizenships of those that frequently fly there. If I had open access to a true used market, I definitely should go in TEA or, better, put on coma.

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 09:38:01 am
content: The best reason I ever heard for buying any electronic equipment new, is the lack of any other elecronic equipment of known accuracy to be able to test/repair second-hand equipment if it turns out to need it. I took that to mean something has to be your datum.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 09:48:44 am
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on July 09, 2020, 08:25:15 amMine was bought from Saelig.com. You're lucky to have Tautech in NZ; he reached out to the Siglent NA manager on my behalf basically asking for them to do the right thing and fix my scope but they refused.I ended up buying a Rigol DS1054Z that got 'upgraded' and has worked really well ever since. I also sold my Keysight scopes recently and bought an MSO5074; now I only have Rigol scopes.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 10:23:10 am
content: Quote from: Fred Basset on July 09, 2020, 09:38:01 amFred,That is absolutely true!! And most of hobbyists and beginners are exactly in that position. If you have good, calibrated, 6.5 digit meter, you can buy used Fluke 87V, verify it and be happy. If you're buying first meter, if you really want/need F87V you need to buy it new or used but calibrated so you have at least some confidence it measures true... Or if money is problem, you buy new UNI-T that is lesser quality meter but it will be dead on accurate.....At least brand new.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 10:26:53 am
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 12:45:44 pmTheir support and updates have left a lot to be desired compared to others.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 10:27:29 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on July 09, 2020, 06:06:25 amThe reason is simple. New equipment has new features like a display which shows the status in a clear way, ethernet / USB connectivity, (in case of oscilloscopes) support for protocol decoding, etc.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 10:54:17 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2020, 10:27:29 amCAN FD did it for me... If using the latest protocols you need new gear to match

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 11:24:04 am
content: Quote from: Elasia on July 09, 2020, 10:54:17 amThis is important. For instance Keysight is known to update decode to match evolution in standards in currently supported models. Sometimes even in older models. LeCroy too.I ONCE complained some time ago that MSOX3000T can count pulses on analog but not digital channels.. On next firmware update, fix was in.. That was awesome.

author: Ctrlocti
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 11:33:14 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 09, 2020, 09:17:51 amTruth. I would have a real hoarding issue if I could get my dirty hands on second hand gear.The second hand market is really a US phenomenon. Just go check the european ebay(s) and equivalent sites. Not only are the offerings a tiny fraction of what's available in the US, the prices are usually relatively high and you have to account for real shipping costs, especially if you happen to live in any offshore location. Considering that older gear weighs a lot, that entire formula results to a, for all intents and purposes, superficial market. Don't get me wrong, the marketexistsbut its not the shopping-mall style that you can find in the US. It tends more to the customer who wants some specific old piece of gear, and will wait until a piece surfaces. It's a different game alltogether.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 11:46:46 am
content: Quote from: Ctrlocti on July 09, 2020, 11:33:14 amStill good deals can be found even taking the shipping and taxes into account. You just have to wait a bit longer for the right deal to appear and not be afraid to make a low-ball offer. I've bought test equipment from all over the world.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 12:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 09, 2020, 11:50:16 amNonsense. This hasn't changed at all. There is lots of used test equipment out there with custom parts.

author: Ctrlocti
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 12:24:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2020, 11:46:46 amYes, of course it can happen. But I really think it's not as welcoming to the low-budget beginner who wants to buy his first (and only) XYZ piece of gear as the US market.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 12:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 09, 2020, 12:24:06 pmOK, but still no. For example HP and Tektronix have been using custom parts for decades.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 12:37:45 pm
content: A lot of older gear is very reliable. If you buy used gear cheaply enough, a "repair" can consist of just getting another one.The main downside of older equipment is often the physical size...

author: Jay1011
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 03:46:46 pm
content: Hobbyist here. I'm in the market for my first scope and plan to buy a low-end but new Keysight DSO12xx soon. Why a new KS and not a less expensive Rigol/Siglent or a used scope? In my view, a few reasons:I want something that works reasonably reliably, both in terms of the scope features/UI and its electrical performance. I get paid to deal with crap CAD tools for my day job; I don't want to deal with similar for my hobby, especially for stuff like SPI/I2C decoding. No, KS won't be perfect, but it will be good enough for me for sure.Modern KS scopes in particular seem to retain their values very well in terms of resale on EBay or the like. This meansI likely can sell my scope a few years down the road if need be and recoup a good portion of what I paid for itIt makes little sense to buy a used KS scope; better to spend a little more money and get a new scope with support and warrantyThe raw cost difference is perhaps ~500 USD. I am fortunate that my income permits me to spend the additional money on something that I'll keep for a few years. I realize not every hobbyist is in this position.I don't need the higher bandwidths that a Rigol/Siglent can be hacked to support. I do primarily digital "hacking projects" and nothing I'd attach a scope to in my designs is much above a couple 10s of MHz.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 04:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: Jay1011 on July 09, 2020, 03:46:46 pmJay, you stated with your reasons and, in your case, I totally agree with them.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 04:13:19 pm
content: Quote from: Jay1011 on July 09, 2020, 03:46:46 pmWhy not an MSO model, if you are doing digital stuff?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 04:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: Jay1011 on July 09, 2020, 03:46:46 pmWell, I'd say the memory is way to short for what you want to use it for. 2Mpts (IIRC) which translates to 500kpts per channel in real usage scenarios. And even less if you add digital channels. In your case I'd consider looking at GW Instek, Siglent (hopefully they fix the memory management soon) or R&S; at least the recent models from these manufacturers have deep memory. I'm also not convinced that Keysight's UI is that spectacular. I used to own an older model but setting up decoding or anything special like math was really clumsy. At least buy a Keysight model with a touchscreen so you don't need to use the buttons below the screen and the selector knob.Resale value is highly overrated. Test equipment devaluates faster than a car.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 04:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on July 09, 2020, 06:10:55 amMy comment was meant sarcastically, but there are those, like the OP, that pore over spec sheets, price lists and features they don't need can't grasp the unspecified reasons that a more expensive product just might be worth it. There's another thread with a guy who has an apparently still working decades-old 8060A and 'upgraded' to an Aneng 8008 and was shocked that things didn't go well.

author: Jay1011
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 05:15:02 pm
content: Yes, I meant the DSOX12xx, almost certainly the DSOX1204A. I don't need the wavegen of the "G" model, but I want 4 channels for full SPI decoding (and I2S if it supports it) as well as general flexibility.Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2020, 04:25:35 pmThe datasheet says 2M depth per channel for one- or half-channel operation, and 1M depth per channel otherwise. Sure, more would be better, but 1M is enough for me I think.Yeah, I'd like a touchscreen scope, but that's the KS 2xxx series or above, which are (a lot) more money, and in the case of the DSOX2xxx, barely better specs than the DSOX12xxx scopes these days. I can't justify the additional cost.Not sure why you say resale is overrated. KS scopes may or may not "devaluate faster than a car" (a 5 year old scope would be perhaps 50% of its original cost?), but I have yet to see in a few months of looking a completed EBay sale where a recent KS scope in good condition, with similar capabilities and with probes, has been sold at a price that would make it attractive compared to a new DSOX1204A. I'm sure that has happened, but I haven't seen it. Note that I don't want a "too old" KS/Agilent scope because I want the modern features (serial decode especially) and I want a physically small scope due to space limitations at home.

author: Jay1011
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 05:33:33 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 09, 2020, 04:13:19 pmThe digital features of MSOs I've seen have come across to me as hacky/frustrating. I'd much rather get a low-end logic analyzer, something like an Analog Discovery2 or Digital Discovery.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:11:15 pm
content: Quote from: Jay1011 on July 09, 2020, 05:15:02 pmCheck the manual again; likely this is in single shot mode only. In normal mode it will use dual buffering which halfs the memory again. Also digital channels are very useful because -unlike a logic analyser- you can see the signals realtime.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:57:58 pm
content: Jay, for an A-brand the price/performance of the Keysight is unbeatable. The official price of a DSOX1204A (~1000USD at Keysight page), however, puts you at the level of a Rigol MSO5074 or a GW Instek GDS-2074E.I echo what nctnico is saying: due to the reputation and popularity of the Rigol and Siglent oscilloscopoes, the resale value at this price point will be eroded severely no matter what brand you get - after all, the price of a new unit is already low and flattens the price range of used units. In other words, a used Keysight at, say, 50% of its value would be competing head-to-head to a brand new and more capable unit from the other popular brands. I personally wouldn't worry about this aspect: buy what you want and don't look back.

author: Jay1011
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2020, 06:11:15 pmGood point. I will check that, but I doubt 500K vs. 1M depth would change my decision.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 07:40:05 pm
content: With 500kpts of memory you'll run into decoding problems quickly if you need to capture several packets. You'll lose resolution due to low samplerate and find yourself needing to trigger on very specific conditions in order to find specific packets. I'd recommend to get a scope with at least 10Mpts of memory if one of the uses is decoding packets. I also recommend getting a 4 channel oscilloscope for SPI.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:05:41 pm
content: Quote from: Jay1011 on July 09, 2020, 06:58:35 pmNico is right.If you want to decode 500K is limitation. So is only 50 segments. Only reason why MSOX3000T can handle any serious decoding is that it can have 1000 segments. One thing that works for Keysight is that decode works even at very low sample rate, even when signal on screen looks like crap..But that defeats purpose of looking at it with a scope.DSOX1204 is perfect as an analog scope replacement. For more advanced digital scope use is disappointing..Performance and specs of GW Instek GDS-2074E is absolutely superior in every aspect. Every. On Rigol and Siglent you might be reticent because platforms are new and not mature yet. And you don't want to wait a bit for them to sort it out.That being said, Siglent has been more diligent fixing stuff lately than, say, R&S was and still is.But GW Instek is rock solid, has fantastic performance and many measurements DSOX1204 doesn't...Your only reason to buy DSOX1204 would be something else than real technical advantage.Of course, you will buy what you want. It is you money and you have your reasons.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:12:42 pm
content: The ASIC and the resultant performance and ease of use is a technology based argument and arguably the main attraction of the Keysight oscilloscopes. I have little doubt it's the reason Dave still prefers a Keysight as his daily driver. The ASIC oscilloscopes are honestly just a joy to use.

author: Jay1011
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:27:51 pm
content: Specs say the DSOX1204A has 1Gsa/s sample rate when all 4 channels active; GDS-2074E appears to be 2Gsa/s across all channels, so 500Msa/s when all 4 channels in use.Also, the latest DSOX firmware enables 500 segments (seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-dsox1200x-and-edux1052-scopes-with-extended-capabilities/msg2951870/#msg2951870). I suspect that is plenty for my use.GDS-2074E is less expensive and a slightly larger screen, and surely some other random differences I didn't notice in the specs.There are always going to be tradeoffs, I realize "what scope should I buy?" is a popular topic around these parts, but my intent was simply to provide an counter example to the OP's contention of "Why would anyone consider anything else than Rigol?".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 09, 2020, 08:12:42 pmBut Dave uses it as an analog scope replacement. For that purpose the low end Keysight scopes are fine (as 2N3055 already noted). But for decoding and advanced use not so much. The UI alone is just too tedious.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 09:06:25 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 09, 2020, 08:12:42 pmOnly because Mr Jones has still to get his head around the power of deep memory DSO usage.Instead of 'crippling' it's a extremely powerful feature.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 09:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: Jay1011 on July 09, 2020, 08:27:51 pmThank you for that information. That IS much better and more useful..And no not some random differences to GW Instek. GW Instek is literally better designed scope from ground up, having much more capabilities, search, measurements, statistics with histograms.GW Instek is really bad at marketing, you need to download user manual to actually see all the stuff you can do... If it weren't for lower bandwidth and sampling rate and less protocols (not problem mostly all important are there for general purpose work) it would give MSOX 3000A run for it's money, as far as math, measurements, and analytical features.. MSOX3000T doesn't have histograms, for instance...DSOX1204 is severely limited compared to it.But hey, like I said before, I'm not trying to convince you anything. Just making facts straight. It was obvious from the start you're going to buy Keysight.. It's your choice. It's a very nice, very good analog replacement scope. It's not bad choice, just not best buy, capability wise. I guess brand name does have value after all.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 10:00:57 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 09, 2020, 08:12:42 pmTotally agreed. I get to use a (much more expensive) MSO-X 6000 series scope at work and it is truly awesome how immediate it feels. If they could combine that with deep memory...I think there would be no reason to buy anything else (if you have the budget for a 30-40k scope of course).

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 04:18:01 am
content: Just got a half working (with problems) DSO5034A for $60. I know input amplifiers are good. Can't wait to get inside of it and get it ready for cal!It would be interesting to compare it to my Siglent. $9000 (old) scope vs $350 scope (new). WHO WINS?I also have a older Rigol I bought for $20 with no display. Backlight connection was out. Easy fix! Nice to have a small & light scope I can throw around.

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 08:21:41 am
content: OK, so now the contestants are:Rigol DS1202Z-E for $469 (where I live)GW Instek GDS-2202E for $1105Keysight DSOX1202A for $900

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 09:51:22 am
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 10, 2020, 08:21:41 amMaybe you've already commented but why not a Rigol MSO5074 which is $939 from Tequipment.net after the eevBlog 6% discount?

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 10:31:41 am
content: $1130 at my place. No idea, you tell me

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:17:28 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 09, 2020, 08:12:42 pmYes, it "just works", and everything is just stupidly fast and responsive. All other scopes feel a bit "finicky" in comparison.And remarkably the Megazoom IV ASIC will be10 years oldNext Feb!

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 12:02:32 pm
content: QuoteDon't forget that the $939 price from Tequipment would be without whatever tax you'd pay when importing it into Poland from outside of the EU (25% here in Sweden).If I were to buy the Rigol MSO5074 from Tequipment it would cost €885 - 6% + 25% tax = €1040 plus some €10 or whatever in import charges. It's not clear if they offer free international shipping.At Batronix it's €1042 incl 16% tax and shipping. Perhaps you can get some discount on that as well. Not much difference, right?The price from your secret place of $1130 is around €1000 so if that includes tax and shipping I'd say it's certainly on par with the others.

author: jaromir
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 12:17:27 pm
content: Just to add another option: I bought my 5074 locally from herehttps://rlx.sk/en/4ch-oscilloscopes/6861-mso5074-rigol-4x70-mhz-8gsas-200mpts-500000-wfmss-la-16opt.htmlThis is well above limit for free shipping within Slovakia, not sure about Poland, but you may ask.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 12:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 09, 2020, 09:06:25 pmGive it a rest.Other than a few fanboys of other brands and in your case a seller of competing equipment shiling his own brand I haven't seen many people complain about memory depth in the real world. Having more memory doesn't hurt but we know available memory is the trade off with the current generation ASIC. The real world implications tend to be massively overstated by a few usual suspects.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 12:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2020, 08:46:13 pmSee the message from Dave. The UI is anything but tedious as that's a major selling point. Speculating about how Dave uses his oscilloscopes seems a bit inappropriate.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 12:52:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 10, 2020, 12:47:33 pmHave you ever used a Keysight scope to do decoding (for example)? I have and the process of setting it up is super tedious compared to GW Instek. This is not speculation but hands-on experience. The secret of the GW Instek is that is has a horizontal and vertical row of buttons next to the screen and a seperate select button instead of a combined rotary/push button. That makes a world of difference in ease of use.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 12:52:24 pmA PC is optimized to input and display information, with keyboard, mouse, large screen. Can't help thinking that there might be something to the idea of a USB scope... but I've never looked into them and I don't know if they are even comparable to a "regular" scope in performance.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 10, 2020, 12:43:01 pmSory but you're wrong. It depends of what you're doing. For design and reverse engineering it is neded all the time. Also for verification and test, it might be needed some longer sequence, but with sufficient timing resolution..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:16:31 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 10, 2020, 01:11:43 pmDefine performance..

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:19:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 12:52:24 pmConsidering your history of endlessly pushing the GW-Instek brand I'm hesitant to take any comparisons of it to any other brand at face value. I've never had much trouble with decoding on the Keysight oscilloscopes I used but I'm hardly a benchmark.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:27:43 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 10, 2020, 01:16:31 pmCan a USB scope do the job of something like a Keysight MSOX3104T?Is a USB scope fast/responsive, or are you sitting and waiting on screen updates?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 10, 2020, 01:15:31 pmConsidering the Keysights are somewhat more popular amongst the professional crowd and the lack of posts about how these oscilloscopes are not suitable for this intended purpose it just doesn't seem to be a major issue. You'd think it'd be discussed more when someone can't do the job with their tool and wants to get on with it to pay the bills.. What I am seeing is a few people relentlessly push "their" favoured brand, massively exaggerating the pros of their choice and cons of any competitors for financial gain or reasons unknown. I've commented before how unfair this is to newcomers who may not be aware of these large amounts of noise and skewed information and subsequently may be steered in a direction not serving their best interest, but the goals of these noisy individuals.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:46:48 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 10, 2020, 01:30:46 pmI understant where your'e coming from, but..Pro crowd rarely have one scope, way more pro audience use LeCroy than you would think.. All advanced Keysight scopes are deep memory ones.. 3000/4000/6000 series are excellent service and diagnostic interactive scopes...I have 3000T but also 2 Picos, one with 500 MS memory. And quite often I have both on and use them interchangeably..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 03:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 10, 2020, 01:30:46 pmFrom what I'm seeing the 'professional crowd' is mostly just making do with whatever is on their desk without even questioning whether there is a tool out there more suitable c.q. more efficient for the job at hand. And what does it matter if the pay check comes in every month anyway?The biggest difference between oscilloscopes is actually what isn't in the datasheet. Currently I own 4 different oscilloscopes each with their unique pros & cons and thus different usage cases.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 04:05:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 03:47:06 pmCompetent professionals are quite sensitive to how efficiently they can get the job done. Time is money and delays because you're dicking with your tools is expensive. That's why most professional tools are rather uneventful affairs which get the job done without too much fuss.I agree not everything is in the datasheet. Ease of use age liveability are factors, which is why Dave's remark is interesting.

author: chegueva01
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 04:41:37 pm
content: Not having enough money might be a reason to , imaging needing to buy lots of tools to start your electronics journey. you'll need to start with some not so heavy tools then upgrade when the time is right.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 04:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 12:52:24 pmI have. It works fine and is not tedious to set up. Speaking as someone who strongly prefers analog scopes anyway in hobby land, the rotary push knob thing that Keysight uses is actually a damn sight better than doubling the number of softkeys.I was most recently using the aforementioned scope for sniffing around a CAN bus, and it does an excellent job. I told the scope what CAN frame ID I wanted to trigger on and it grabbed it no worries.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 05:13:08 pm
content: But you didn't try a different scope to see if it is better or worseI did and I know from experience the Keysight UI is not the most ideal one for doing more complicated setups. There is not much use in saying 'I didn't find it tedious' without having any reference frame.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 05:27:11 pm
content: So what? I was sharing my experience with some tools I have access to at work, and that I did not find it tedious to use. That's just like....my opinion, man.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 05:31:38 pm
content: But it precisely underlines what I wrote a few posts earlier in reply #127

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 05:55:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 05:13:08 pmIs that why Dave's judgement got waved away with "he uses it as an analogue oscilloscope"? I'm pretty sure he has almost anyone beat when it comes to experience with different models but I suspect it wasn't the desirable reply. I don't think cherry picked arguments are doing anyone a favour.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 06:23:27 pm
content: The religious arguments that erupt about DSOs on this forum are honestly hilarious.If we are talking about buying gear for work-for-money, the low end just doesn't cut it for a variety of reasons. If I'm buying an instrument for work, it not only needs to work well, it also needs good support in case it breaks. NIST traceable cal may be required depending on what you're doing. Keysight may not be quite as awesome as HP was, but their support is excellent and they carry a wide range of useful instruments as HP did. It's pretty much like the "No one got fired for buying IBM" adage.At my work, Siglent/Rigol/GW Instek just wouldn't cut it from a risk management perspective.Nobodybuys that stuff except for one off purchases to use at your desk or something. Serious lab equipment purchases are always a top brand, and we have JIT agreements with the vendors so if you have a sudden immediate need you can usually get it in on your bench within a couple business days.On the other hand, if I'm buying for myself...the lower end OEMs provide a great value proposition and serious bang per buck.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 06:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 10, 2020, 05:55:52 pmDave may have touched a lot of scopes but to gain some real in-depth experience in what works and what doesn't you'd need to use a whole bunch of them in various scenarios. Dave just doesn't do the heavy duty of design work like some of us do -which is perfectly fine- but you should put his remarks in that perspective. IOW: you can't go around saying this oscilloscope is absolutely perfect for all use cases. Such an oscilloscope simply doesn't exist.To my left there is a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A with a GW Instek GDS2204-E stacked on top of it to use for a project. Each oscilloscope is better for a certain purpose so I pulled out both.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 07:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 06:47:39 pmKeep on waving, wave anything getting in the way of the foregone conclusion away. GW-Instek must be the logical choice or else we'll just wave some more!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 09:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 10, 2020, 12:43:01 pmOK play the man instead of the ball !The most capable DSO's have good memory depth, period.It requires a different use style to get its full capabilities and some use of gray matter instead of just twiddling knobs and hoping to see squiggly lines.If you don't understand the design strategies used in scopes today and why they are used maybe it's time you did some study so to know what you're taking about.BTW, who mentioned any brands ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 09:48:59 pm
content: @Tautech: dang it, why did you have to take the bait?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 10:15:07 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 10, 2020, 09:28:05 pmMost other people would make an excellent point, but considering the endless barrage of Siglent shilling coming from your corner it's a bit laughable to now suddenly start worrying about how the game is played. Act like you want to be treated and people will have no issues returning the gesture. I'm not sure whether you're on a personal quest to ruin Siglent's reputation and make it look like a dishonest outfit but you're doing an admirable job.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 10:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 09:48:59 pmThey hated him for he told the truth.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:22:01 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 09, 2020, 08:05:41 pmI think GW Instek looks to have some really good and interesting scopes (will look more at them), but how good are they at updating firmware and fixing bugs?

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2020, 10:27:29 amFor me personally it is also much easier for tax reasons for my company to buy a new scope (unless you get a really, really good price on second hand market, it is not worth the hassle).

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:34:36 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 08, 2020, 10:38:27 amI did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on July 08, 2020, 05:21:35 pmOk. Good that they (finally) took it back at least.(Even if I think it would have been more normal for most other manufacturers to just replace it with a new working one, and can not understand why not.)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:47:49 pm
content: Quote from: martinot on July 10, 2020, 11:34:36 pmOK.- First you need to know that in general, it is completely normal for incentives to be granted to any industry, especially in an area where there is unemployment. This is done with the idea of boosting the economy in that area and, hopefully, make it self sustaining in the longer run. It is very common for American states to compete for corporations' attention by offering various attractive sweeteners. Of course, any company that has received a subsidy in this way, can use that money in different ways - either to run low prices to shut others out of the market, or just add to the profitability of the company. For example,https://mexicogov.org/incentives.phpThen, there are the "hidden subsidies" that are created by government programmes such as aerospace or the military. These branches of government typically have a LOT of money at their disposal and they disperse it to industry via tactics like buying equipment and/or parts at inflated prices from favoured suppliers, which effectively acts as a state subsidy without calling it a state subsidy. Many of the A brand oscilloscope companies that we know and love benefit from these programmes.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on July 09, 2020, 06:10:55 amI have bought som great multimeters from other brands, like my Brymen BM257S, Wavetek/meterman (several), and also the EEVblog 121W one (wanted to support Dave and channel, and have some of his other products as well). Have been very happy with those and not regret it at all, but at the same time I must admit that all my other five multi meters I own are from Fluke. Never been disappointed with them. Even if less features per buck compared with the competition, my Flukes have never let med down and are a joy to use. If I measure AC conductors, I almost exclusively use my Flukes.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:59:33 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 09, 2020, 07:37:59 amNow in those times with CV-19 I personally have a lot more acceptance that many manufactures (especially those who manufactures in China/asia, or depend on key components from China) have difficulties with normal lead time deliveries.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:07:41 am
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on July 09, 2020, 08:25:15 amI have not (yet) have had the possibility to test modern Rigol scopes, but will try to when possible. Are they slow just compared to Keysight scopes (which I have had a chance to test in the 1000-series, and is a good reference to me), or are they slow in general compared to all other brands?I know it does not affect measurement or end resluts, but responsiveness is very important for me, as I personally really hate working with slow and unresponsive devices/machines (regardless of types).

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:15:59 am
content: Quote from: H.O on July 08, 2020, 10:15:01 amThanks!I think some things seems to be more common between scopes by a certain manufacture (documentation, general quality of software, general user interface, normal frequency of firmware releases, customer support, etc.), but many other things I fully agree needs to be discussed regarding the specific series, or exact models. Would be happy if more people mentioned which specific series or models they referenced to when they mention certain attributes.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:16:32 am
content: Quote from: martinot on July 11, 2020, 12:07:41 amJudging by the videos I've seen the MSO5000 is faster than the DS1054Z, but noticeably laggy on video. It'd drive me nuts, which is a shame as it's a competent oscilloscope otherwise. They were so close to owning this slice of the market but now the competition is onto them with their respective products. A tool should be a shortcut instead of being a barrier to scale.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:26:25 am
content: Quote from: martinot on July 10, 2020, 11:34:36 pmFinnish actually.rf-loop goes to China most years and displays the Chinese flag while he is there.Very experienced engineer and now retired (I believe) test equipment reseller of Finland.You should research his many informative posts about all brands over many years.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:33:02 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 09, 2020, 09:17:51 amI agree. It is a very good comment and observation.But that said,youalso have to remember theopposite; at that same time as Rigol/Siglent are "normal" and affordable for you in your country (and too expensive in even poorer countries), Keysight/R&S could just as well be normal and affordable in richer countries than yours (like northern Europe countries like Germany and Scandinavia, and USA/Canada, for example).Just like different neighborhoods defines what car brands are normal. Where I live it is a little bit upper middle class, with a lot of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsches and Teslas, but very few of cheaper car brands like Skoda, FIAT and KIA (like in lower income areas), but at the same time also very few really expensive cars like Ferrari and Lamborghini (have a couple in the area, but not many or common, like they have in really rich peoples areas).Your view and purchasing power, and what you consider "normal", varies a lot depending on where your live, and what you see around you every normal day.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:37:05 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 11, 2020, 12:26:25 amYes, I think that was the person who informed that Rigol got subsidies from the Chinese government for specifically selling their scopes outside the Chinese market. As you represent Siglent, is the same true for them as well?

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:45:01 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 10, 2020, 11:47:49 pmI have read a lot of economics at the University, so you do not need to explain what subsides are or how they work.I am interested to hear from you regardingyour claimsthat;1. I have got false information regarding that Chinese government gives specific subsidies to Rigol for selling their scopes outside the Chines market?2. Which of the scope manufactures in USA and Europe receives the same type of subsidies as Rigol (which you claimed, but without mention who)?Please answer thosespecificquestions (not telling me some gibberish lectures about general economics terms).

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:48:26 am
content: Quote from: martinot on July 11, 2020, 12:45:01 amI think you just sound like a Trump supporting China basher, and there isn't much point in talking with you. Have a good day Sir!

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:54:42 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 11, 2020, 12:48:26 amI do not like or support Trump (if that is important for the discussion, or for you to know).What I would like to know are the facts behind your claims that what rf-loop said about Chines Rigol subsidies are not true, and your claim that you know that some brands in USA and Europe receives the same type of subsidies.If you can not tell me that and are willing to discuss facts (your the one coming with all the personal attacks); I think you need to rethink who of use who are more "trump like".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 01:03:05 am
content: Quote from: martinot on July 11, 2020, 12:37:05 amI would expect so.Like I posted some days ago, most jurisdictions give exporters incentives. Subsidies as you call them are the same thing.Other industries I have worked in have all manner of subsidy, it maybe higher depreciation writeoff incentives on the purchase of new equipment, maybe lower input costs, lower power cost for example compared to domestic.You are chasing rainbows as it is something all countries do as normal industry incentives.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 01:41:13 am
content: Quote from: SmokedComponent on July 06, 2020, 01:26:08 pmI did the same, got the 1104 and upped it to the 1204, I love it so far, I love one of those $10k scopes too someday, but that's a long way's off, but possible.I've been taking screenshots of the webpage display , which is ok, but is there any difference from the button on the machine ? (which IDK where it is yet.)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 01:51:26 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on July 11, 2020, 01:41:13 amBlue round Print button saves directly to USB.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 07:35:09 am
content: Quote from: martinot on July 11, 2020, 12:33:02 amOpposite? ?That's not opposite.That's precisely what I said but upped 1+ level!

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 03:06:49 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 11, 2020, 07:35:09 amNot exactly; but never mind. I agree in principal with almost all that you said (good comment and observation).

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 03:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 11, 2020, 01:03:05 amYou try to talk gibberish as usual - to try to fog the subject in question (I understand that it might not be so comfortable for you).I am exactly referencing to what Chinese person claimed as fact that Chinese Government/CCP gave special targeted subsidies for each scope that Rigol sold specifically outside the Chinese market.I have said it many times, but the totally dishonest person you are - you seem to "forget" things like that, and avoid the topic by answering with gibberish and personal attacks.Way to go Siglent - you have so "professional" sales people - should be proud of how they behave.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 07:46:40 pm
content: Can we stop the politics, NOW?!

author: neon416
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 09:11:20 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on July 06, 2020, 12:45:44 pmBecause while you can buy MSO5074 for $999 and get 500+Mhz bandwidth for 4 channels by simple software "patch"- your need not something else)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 12:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: martinot on July 08, 2020, 09:25:05 amThey forgot a few of them on the first production runs.To solve the problem they posted little bags of them to people who complained.Quote from: martinot on July 08, 2020, 09:25:05 amYes.

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2020, 11:48:23 am
content: OK, guys. I have 2 candidates left and that's final, I believe. I have to choose among the 2 of them.Keysight DSOX1202A for $950. 70 MHz upgradeable/hackable to 200 MHzRohde&Schwarz RTB2002 70 MHz upgradeable (hackable???) to 300 MHz, 10 bit for $1700.Contrary to what some of you thought, stating that "if you have to ask, you're a noob", I just don't quite have the time to go through all the specs and I need opinion of people actually using these scopes for real work, whose input far exceeds what can be read in datasheets. For instance, one guy here is pushing GW Instek. That's true, it's a decent company but I bought their function generator and I quickly returned it and took a cheaper Rigol instead because it was way better both in specs and actual behaviour. So I need practical advice, not specs bragging.I'll use it for various things while designing industrial electronics, and I work both with microcontrollers in the digital domain, and also take a lot of analogue measurements, such as precise measurements of low currents, which makes me think 10-bit or better resolution may be the right way to go.

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2020, 02:54:42 pm
content: OK, I've just read that SPI and other decoding options are bought separately, which renders the R&S way too pricey for me.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2020, 08:26:16 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on August 05, 2020, 11:48:23 amI guess you mean me. I have returned the GW Instek function generator as well. I still have & use the GW Instek oscilloscope though; my advise is from experience.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2020, 08:09:53 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 05, 2020, 12:48:11 pm100%. My ex-boss couldn't say no to the price-tag on Rigol DS1104Z, so he bought two to replace our aging Tek TDS2000 scopes. Blood pressure through the roof working with that thing.Then we bought a Siglent SDS2104X. So much better. Still hangs occaisionally with a lot of memory points, but better than the Rigol. I have GWInstek GDS2204E at home. Of the 3 scopes, it's UI is definitely the fastest and most responsive. Well worth the money, to me. Other people might not care!

author: tchiwam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 12:47:34 am
content: If you don't play with complex numbers, convolution kernels, doppler and phase coding, and/or <25ps jitter you don't need the big names.If you play with these, then you will buy the tool that does only that job and probably have a cheap scope and a not so cheap scope.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 03:21:54 am
content: If you're buying for professional use, yes you do. It's very much akin to the old aphorism "Nobody got fired for buying IBM". And the big names offer very good support that you really should have if you're using your test equipment to make money. Otherwise, for hobbyists just wanting a working scope, Rigol/Siglent/what have you can provide serious bang per buck as long as you do your research and figure out what meets your needs.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 04:10:17 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on August 08, 2020, 03:21:54 amBut do you need 'bang for the buck'? Or do you need a responsive, easy-to-use intuitive tool that achieves what you need as easily as possible? How many people that are up-hacking their scopes to 350MHz ever actually view a signal at 350MHz, perhaps other than their signal generator? I suspect that higher-quality tools are even more appropriate for occasional users that don't want to relearn the non-intuitive quirks of their bargain scope every time they pull it out to use it.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 04:27:41 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 08, 2020, 04:10:17 amYes. If you have (1) budget for it or (2) are willing to work with old stuff. I'd say the vast majority of the folks who come on here wanting oscilloscope advice are beginners who have budgets no more than $500 (and that is probably already on the upper tail of the normal distribution). Vanishingly few people come here and say "I can spend $15,000+ on an oscilloscope, help me choose". The folks that can afford that for a hobby lab probably don't need to ask on a forum anyway.As for hacking bandwidth...why not? Maybe they want to work with faster digital circuits, in which case having more bandwidth is quite useful for seeing your signal integrity.I actually do not own a digital scope unless you count the two Data Precision digitizers I have. I use DSO/MSO professionally though. I choose to use analog CROs (I am up to five now; Tek 7104, 7904A, 585A, 2465B, HP 1727A) for my hobby work, and they do 99% of what I need on a day to day basis. I also enjoy troubleshooting and repairing old test equipment. Not everyone does, I get that. But all of mine were top of the line, high dollar items when they were new, and they all work great to this day.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 04:32:38 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on August 08, 2020, 04:27:41 amI think that's probably not exactly correct. I think analog CRO'sareyour hobby. I recognize the symptoms.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2020, 04:36:23 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 08, 2020, 04:32:38 amWell yes, but I use them too.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 12:11:18 am
content: Some of this reminds me of the audiophools who spend tens of thousands on stereo equipment and only listen to test recordings.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 01:17:31 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on August 19, 2020, 12:11:18 amLOL!Well, not so far off, CONTEXT people!How much do you actually need on a regular basis?Yes, from a professional level I get you need more, but for most things???It's the same problem why people want fancy cars, computers and sofa's.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 05:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 06, 2020, 02:58:33 pmI'm not a GW fan or salesman, but I think you guys are overlooking a lot of utility and worrying about the color scheme a bit too much. On the face of it, the scope looks excellent to me as a daily driver, although I haven't tried one.First, the colors in your photo are a bit too vivid.https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/Instek-GDS-3354-Oscilloscope/?gclid=CjwKCAjwm_P5BRAhEiwAwRzSO2n1qrWyB3HE8F2F3vj5Q5phi84HjPyKtGaczi7VrPJm8qA5kG3a9RoC57oQAvD_BwESecond, the screen is listed as 8 inches, that isn't all that small. In fact it is larger than any scope I currently have. I'm guessing the scope itself is a bit bigger than some.Third, again without commenting on howwellit works, the inclusion of 50R, 75R and 1M input impedances, ETS, split-screen function, probe power/sensing, individual channel controls, a separate external trigger and an external monitor connection are the things I would be discussing, not whether it clashes with my carpet.

author: MichalPL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2020, 03:01:19 pm
content: Guys, just to let you know that today I've finally ordered the ultimate solution to my needs, I believe. Thank you all for your input. I bought Rohde&Schwarz RTC1002-COM2. A promo bundle with 300 MHz and all the options including a logic probe for $1700.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2020, 05:38:24 am
content: Quote from: TimNJ on August 06, 2020, 08:09:53 pmYep. In Dave's videos you can clearly see the Insteks have the fastest UI response.The Rigol is the slowest but mostly on the vertical control and you can learn to do it faster. It's all in the finger technique.Quote from: TimNJ on August 06, 2020, 08:09:53 pmI guess it depend on how you use your scope. I really don't find myself constantly messing with the vertical controls, so...Not worth paying $150 extra for.(OK, the Insteks aren't more expensive than the Rigols now, I'd definitely get the Instek if I was buying a 'scope today)

author: multiJ
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 05:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: MichalPL on August 27, 2020, 03:01:19 pmEnjoy in good health