Use only genuine APC batteries, because they are safer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:13:22 pm
content: A genuine battery from a standard APC UPS-C 650 line interactive unit. Of course they are safer.Have you ever seen similar damages in other sealed acid batteries? For me it's the first time.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:22:51 pm
content: ... and more expensiveLast week I found an interesting post about the float charging voltage and how to adjust it (http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_smartups_battery_float_voltage). My Smart-UPS's float voltage was a little bit to high.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:30:05 pm
content: Seen that before plenty of times.We have hundreds of APC brand UPS units throughout the business.It is not uncommon for batteries to come out looking like that.We replace with Panasonic brand because they are a lot cheaper than the simply re-branded APC ones.Also, it is my understanding that Panasonic SLAs are a little more tolerant of a slightly higher float voltage than other generic brands.That said, we have still had some Panasonics bulge and in a couple of cases split.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:33:52 pm
content: Yes, this is why there's a fixed service interval for UPS battery packs. I used to have a 3000VA APC SmartUPS where the batteries were so swollen they wouldn't fit through the opening anymore. My other smaller NetUPS 700VA has some nasty corrosion in the battery bay. Both were given to me for free, people just don't seem to realize the cost of a UPS is in replacing the batteries regularly, not just the initial purchase.Also buy the correct batteries for them. I tried some standby type batteries in the smaller NetUPS and it just destroyed them after a few hours of battery runtime over a few months. You need batteries that can deal with very high currents.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:35:45 pm
content: I just rescued a perfectly usable, fully working APC Back-UPS RS1000 from the local recycling center (I grabbed it from the top of the electronics pile while the attendant wasn't looking). When I pulled the batteries out (original APCs), both were split, like in your photos. That wasn't something I'd come across before.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on June 24, 2015, 09:33:52 pmYes, we have an annual replacement policy for everything under and including 1500VA.The larger units, 5000VA and 10000VA get theirs done every 2 years.But we still get the occasional balloon...We are a bit disgruntled with APC.We have begun the slow process of replacing them.We are currently trying out Eaton.They are cheaper than APC, lighter weight, and seem to deliver longer run times than the equivalent VA in an APC unit.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:49:50 pm
content: In my experience, the Panasonic SLAs last for about 4 - 5 years.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 09:57:55 pm
content: We have a bit of a special situation in which a lot of our units will be operating for a number of minutes a number of times a day.After a year or so the battery has had a bit of a hiding...

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 10:00:31 pm
content: I have a bunch of old dead OEM batteries I pulled from APC units years ago. Nothing special about them other than the APC sticker. No garbage brands though, Exide and Panasonic mostly. None of the failures exhibited any swelling or cracking - most just got old and dried out.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 10:35:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mr.B on June 24, 2015, 09:30:05 pmSame here. The cause seems to be the crappy charging circuit APC uses. You should be able to get 5 to 10 years out of a lead acid battery as long as you maintain it properly but in an APC UPS you better replace the batteries every 3 years.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:03:33 pm
content: We had a couple of hundred of the APC SmartUPS 1500's deployed. When the batteries wore out we replaced with the equivalent part number batteries from Batteries Plus. Never really had an issue with them. I am running 4 of them here when we did the equipment refresh and am still using the Batteries Plus batteries in 2 of them. They will be getting new batteries soon as I use them for work related equipment and just got the authorization to replace them. I have seen a couple swell up that made it hard to get out of the UPS, but I've never seen them split.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:36:22 pm
content: APC is utter crap. They use crap components and crap batteries even in expensive models. Any decent batteries will be better or the same as APC branded (if you are lucky and get CSB under the APC sticker this day). Riello and Eaton are way more reliable. I know one Riello 10 kVa UPS which runs 7 years on the original batteries and they still are OK. Or for comparison, We have a few Powerware (made before Eaton bought them) 9120 series here (different power models). I had to replace the batteries in a few of them recently. Batteries were at least 5 years old (know as much as I work in this company). Some of them still run on the old batteries. On the other hand I had to replace batteries in much newer APC branded smart UPS crap in less than 2 years.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2015, 11:45:36 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 24, 2015, 11:36:22 pm+1Thats why we are currently trying out Eaton.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 06:07:54 am
content: Any UPS with built in battery is likely to toast the battery in a similar way.Brand does not matter.QuoteYou will get 5 - 10 years out of a deep discharge tall tubular batteries. Not even 3 years out of a SMF battery.It is simply in the physical construction and quality of the lead.Batteries are a replaceable item in the low end UPS designed to fail after a year. After all, APC makes more on the replacement batteries than they do originally on the UPS

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 08:25:49 am
content: Quote from: madires on June 24, 2015, 09:49:50 pmI'm going to have to buy Panasonics next. After about 2 years, I also had a Chinese battery bulge like OP's APC branded battery.PS: My UPS is also a APC SmartUPS for home use. cheap as crap inside, it's probably destroying batteries with an improper charger circuit.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 12:38:05 pm
content: Why do people say "APC batteries"? They don't make batteries anymore than Ford makes tires.Also, could somebody please post this charging circuit that APC uses and explain why it is so bad.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 12:38:19 pm
content: We found that the original APC batteries lasted about 3 years or so. The Batteries Plus batteries lasted 3-4 years. I still get that out of them here in the home office. As long as the company is paying for them, I'm good.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 12:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on June 25, 2015, 12:38:05 pmBut you can buy batteries that are branded APC, unlike tires... Obviously APC doesn't make them, but with the APC branded ones you know they are the correct type and shape. You also lose the equipment protection insurance when using other batteries.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 01:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on June 25, 2015, 12:49:40 pmHaven't seen it myself yet, but some people report that APC ships some UPSs with Kung Lung batteries now. About Panasonic SLAs, if you got a low or moderate load on your UPS you can use the standard SLAs. But if you run your UPS with high loads, you should get the SLAs optimized for UPS usage (high current draw, low internal resistance). And check the float voltage!

author: Kevman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 02:23:22 pm
content: My CyberPower is still on its original batteries... And its probably 5 years old. Works fine. I know it takes 2 7Ah SLAs, but since I've never had them out so I don't know the brand.My dad has a Generac Generator that uses the exact same battery to run the starter. Its still on its original, despite being over 10 years old. It doesn't trickle charge, though. I wonder if that actually helps the battery, because I've seen some UPSes kill batteries after one or two.I guess the quality of the battery and UPS both have an impact... I think I'll stick with Cyberpower for the time being.Ever been near a car battery when they let go? They literally sound like a gunshot. It scares the crap out of you when you turn the key on your car and it makes a sound like that.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 02:34:24 pm
content: The problem with most UPSs is that they overcharge the batteries. APC was famous for cranking up the voltage so that the battery would recharge quickly. This isn't necessarily a bad thing because it gets the battery ready for another power failure but it wears out the battery with the constant overcharge. They can't just turn down the voltage to the 'correct' voltage because that level is a moving target determined by temperature, age, and battery condition.Some brands (and I think this is becoming more common) float charge the battery for a few days after an outage and then disconnect the charger completely and just monitor the battery. The charger is reconnected when necessary. This prevents the overcharging and often gives you a battery life of over 5 years. Sometimes it's hard to find out if a UPS uses this technique because they hide the fact behind marketing gibberish.Ed

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 02:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on June 25, 2015, 12:49:40 pmIf by "branded APC" you mean putting a peel and stick label on the battery over the original manufacturer's printing, then yeah, they're APC batteries. Don't know about the "insurance" part though. That seems a bit shady.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 03:54:19 pm
content: Just replaced a load of batteries this year, 64 in the Tower UPS. They did 5 years, and the ones before were new in 2002. I recycled the old ones into things that were lower stress, like emergency lighting and such, as the old cells were still mostly good, just reduced in capacity. Some though were cooked, and the simple rattle test was applied to all.Just today took a battery dated 2002 out of service, replacing with a 2010 dated one, as it finally died. It was finally killed by the Load Shedding. The new battery I put in this year has had a lot of those cycles, so will not last too long. Ah well, i am buying them by the pallet load so they are cheaper, and are a reasonable brand from Deltec.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 08:38:43 am
content: Given the higher cost per amp hour you get from gel cells, for my main UPS I went the inverter-charger route, and 4 big ass 100ah batteries. Want to switch to a 48v telco style setup at some point though and possibly redundant rectifier and inverter. Perhaps overkill for home setup but I don't like downtime.For smaller UPSes I always buy "off brand" batteries at a local electrical store for 1/4th of the price APC asks for the same battery. Just because they are non APC does not change much, these same batteries are used in emergency lights, fire panels, etc... so they're going to be just as good.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 10:20:17 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on June 24, 2015, 09:43:20 pmAre you in Melbourne? I know someone who would pay for these replaced batteries... me.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 10:47:58 am
content: Quote from: rdl on June 25, 2015, 12:38:05 pmIt's not the charging circuit per se, it's the implementation.Within reason, you can extract more capacity out of a lead acid battery by charging it up to a higher voltage. That's why most SLA's say 13.8v for float and 14.4v for cycle usage. APC take advantage of this by floating them in excess of 13.8v (just). The problem is as the components in the charging circuit age, the float voltage creeps up, and as it is already right on the high side it cooks the batteries. The older the UPS, the more likely this is to occur. I have 2 units here, one is 1998 and the other is 2001. Both of them needed the charging circuit adjusted when I picked them up. Resistors had drifted (still within tolerance) but enough to push the charge voltage up that I could hear the SLA's chirping as they reached a full charge. When you over charge them they make the cutest little repetitive farting sounds as they progressively vent. Replace the 5% resistors with properly sized 1% units and the problem goes away.It is what it is, and if you use APC UPS's its something you just deal with. On the flip side I have a beaut MGE that has 7 year old batteries in it. I prefer the APC because they are old-school iron core transformer based units and therefore require no active cooling unless they are sourcing or trimming power, whereas the MGE has fans that run full time.The APC units are as rugged as buggery, are actually quite a clever design and the older units have schematics available and are relatively easy to repair and maintain. They're also pretty ubiquitous and therefore tick a lot of boxes for those of us looking for reliable power protection. You just need to know their quirks.Personally I drop the float voltage to spec and replace the batteries when the UPS demands it (5+ years at the moment).

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 11:46:33 am
content: Quote from: BradC on June 26, 2015, 10:47:58 amMine was 13.9V. The datasheet for Panasonic's SLAs recommends 13.6 - 13.8V float voltage.Quote from: BradC on June 26, 2015, 10:47:58 amA few posts ago I posted an URL to a manual on adjusting the float voltage via the serial/USB connection. That method works fine with my old Smart-UPS (around 2004).

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 11:47:25 am
content: Nice explaination BradC.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 02:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 26, 2015, 11:46:33 amAre you sure? In a lot of cases the software calibration alters what the UPS reports, but does not actually change the float voltage. Yours may well be different, but it's worth breaking out the meter to be really sure. In the units around the age of mine, the float voltage is actually set by reference voltages into the charger ASIC and not influenced by the firmware. Specifically the ASIC requires the float voltage to be divided down to 5.0V and as the divider and surrounding circuitry ages things move around. I can change those constants using the serial interface, but that only changes the voltages the UPS reports to *me*, not what its actually floating at.I can confidently say this as I had one UPS totally lose it's mind and scramble its eeprom - suddenly thinking it was a 3kva 110V EXL unit (where it is actually a 1400W 230V RM unit), and I had to learn how to re-configure it from scratch including all the calibration constants and model details that are not actually documented anywhere at all, so I spent a *lot* of time with a meter and variac learning how the device *actually* works (thankfully with a schematic).

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 06:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on June 26, 2015, 02:22:12 pmI'm pretty sure! It's a hidden programming mode which allows you set the gain. I had a DMM connected to the batteries and tweaked the gain. The voltage followed the gain nearly instantly. A while later I checked the voltage (DMM) again and it was still the same. I suppose the gain adjusts the voltage measurement of the batteries. When you change the gain, the displayed voltage changes too. But since the firmware controls the float voltage also (preset value, my guess is 13.9V), it thinks that the voltage is too high and decreases it. So the displayed voltage is less accurate but the float voltage is correct for my SLAs.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2015, 01:02:40 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on June 26, 2015, 10:20:17 amSorry... Wrong flag.I am in Nelson, NZ.May be a bit expensive to ship them to you.

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2015, 03:57:46 am
content: Quote from: mcinque on June 24, 2015, 09:13:22 pmI have in a few instances... Mainly in UPSes (other than APC... because I'm cheap), but I have seen it in other SLA uses as well. I figured it was typical for series SLA battery setups without balance charging.

author: BurtyB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2015, 11:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on June 24, 2015, 09:13:22 pmYes - bothbigand(APC) - sometimes they just need more love than they get.

author: CronusWorks
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 30, 2015, 04:08:52 pm
content: I've seen lots of this since I work for a battery retailer/distributor. I've pulled several UPSes apart for customers to replace swollen batteries.My favorite was a very large unit's battery modules that were brought in (literally just big plastic cases full of batteries designed to slide into a rack). Each one contained 10 12V 8Ah batteries in series (so it was a shock hazard too) that had been left in so long that they'd swollen enough to deform and crack open the outer casing. There were even a few that swelled so much they bridged the ~3/4" gap between the batteries and were still stuck to each other after I removed them from the casing.I personally own two Eaton Powerware 9125s that I got cheaply (brand new) in 2009 because they were discontinued and the batteries were past the 'charge by' date on the box. Despite that, the original batteries are still in there and still working just fine (I'm sure the capacity is somewhat reduced, but I haven't bothered to test by how much). To be fair, I'm running a lot less equipment off these than they were intended for.+1 Eaton.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2015, 09:32:24 pm
content: the difference between a flooded lead acid battery and an AGM battery.. is you can add water to the flooded battery.agm batteries are theoretically able to handle overcharge because the hydrogen and oxygen have space to be able to migrate across the fiberglass which is not fully saturated with liquid.. reach the other plate and react.but this is only partly true. that's why they have a rubber cap under a cover that takes about 5 psi to blow.the hydrogen if it is produced will migrate through the plastic battery case all by itself without any help from other entropy generators.but anyhow, add water early, add water often... and your agm batteries will last a lot longer.and they should be floated at the same voltage you float your flooded cells at. but the reason the float voltage is higher is because it can be.they increase the acid concentration.. this is why an agm cell, after a month disconnected, can still read 13 volts. a flooded cell should drop to 12.56 volts within a few hours.btw, my brother is a nuclear operator on a rather large submarine.they switched to AGM cells rather than flooded.the navy found that float/trickle charging them utterly destroyed them.so.. if you can believe this.. i cannot, lol.the us navy charges the agm cells. and trickle discharges them.then charges them.. and trickle discharges them.they are now lasting as long as the battery manufacturer told them they would.