3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:53:24 pm
content: Software Defined Electricity, It's the future!Yeah right!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/200/I can't see the option now, but I definitely allowed the changing of your vote / your mind!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 02:21:06 pm
content: I won't vote because I still don't know what 3DFS's VectorQ is actually doing and how. Anyway, the thread linked is a marketing disaster. We've asked several times for details but only got buzzwords and insults. And the company's web page isn't helpful either. When I consider just the marketing I'd have to assume it's a scam.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 03:38:54 pm
content: My opinion, if they have to resort to being beligerant and roll out the buzzwords to a bunch of engineers, is 'scam'

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2018, 03:31:01 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 12, 2018, 08:18:21 pmProve it!And I don't mean another of your buzzword loaded paragraphs filled with insults at your interlocutors. I mean, either some solid, cogent, complete technical explanation of how your systems achieve your claims (i.e no more of this 'We do it by delivering microamps per microsecond in real time' tosh but a properly argued white paper or similar, you must have onesomewhere) OR details of one or more reference customers who are prepared to publicly stand up and say it works.If you cannot, or will not, offer one of those two then the only reasonable conclusion is that you're either deluded, or deliberately pedalling rubbish and we can safely ignore you, your extraordinary claims, and tell anyone who asks that they ought to avoid your products like the plague on the grounds that you can't or won't properly explain or defend them.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 02:34:51 am
content: Maybe I am misunderstanding it but isn't that what regulators and other control circuitry is for?To me it sounds related to what already happens with data transmission over mains like with powerline adaptors.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2019, 06:21:28 pm
content: @cdoerfler: Chris, two suggestions for you:(a) I think it is really time that you disclose your affiliation with 3DFS in your forum identity. Easy to do in the forum software, via either the "personal text" or the "signature" in your foum profile.(b) Don't you have a technical person on the 3DFS team who could represent your company on this forum, and give some real technical explanations? Forgive me, but a bachelor in psychology does not cut it around here, especially as it shows in your posts.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2019, 08:28:08 pm
content: Thanks for adding the signature, Chris -- that's a step in the right direction.

author: lokiiie
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 16, 2019, 07:34:27 am
content: How does the vectorq work and how it harmonize the system?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2019, 12:43:28 pm
content: Lightning protection done in software, what could possibly go wrong.https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1127560806793609216

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2019, 02:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on May 16, 2019, 12:43:28 pmAn IoT app, it queries the local weather service then uses bollockchain to leverage synergistic AI technologies and achieves a lightning prediction rate in the high teens percentile, sometimes even before it gets blown to pieces by a direct strike.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 11:04:19 am
content: Quote from: CJay on May 16, 2019, 02:06:47 pmDon't be giving them any more ideas.Yep, no lightning strike will be able to sneak passed that.They'll probably win an award.img fromwww.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/25/

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 02:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 17, 2019, 12:51:45 pmMore buzzwankery with no substance.Quote from: Cerebus on June 21, 2018, 03:31:01 pmAnd how the hell is that box gonna protect against surges? To do that it either has to clamp or have a disconnect in series. That thing is entirely wired in parrallel. So even if it clamps it would short the supply using any normal switching elements (IE ones that can be computer controlled). Also, reaction and switching times play a factor in surge arresting. MOVs, diodes, lightning arrestors exc all work extremely fast. If you throw a computer and switching elements in it, you are adding delayed reaction to the point it would already be too late and damage would occur. "oh look, a sur-" *BANG*(not to mention the computer would have to protect it's own supply, but with what, traditional elements?) The only award that would earn is the one for the person that can identify it's remains after a surge.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 06:07:50 pm
content: In all seriousness, I assume the wires entering the box on the upper right are the utility supply and the wires leaving upper left are to the premises.So that leaves half a dozen or so wires from the magic box, where's the active element, is it in the box you built or is it in the main panel being controlled by your box?

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 08:07:03 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on May 17, 2019, 06:07:50 pmFor those not familiar with US wiring, I have annotated the pictureI couldn't help myself questioning some of what is or isn't there.Another thing I wonder about is Cdofler stating that the device is connected via fuses when the picture clearly shows a 3 pole breaker; wouldn't a power engineer know the difference?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 05:11:43 am
content: QuoteRight there you have just admitted you don't know jack yet you've been trying to defend this rubbish to real engineers.It has every type of cooling huh? First of all, water cooling requires a radiator which usually requires fans to cool it unless it's significantly large (which wouldn't leave much room). Oil cooled? So it's filled with mineral oil?Also, even if the fans only come on for a a surge arrest that seems like an an aweful lot of cooling for something that consumes 70W ( less than the human body at about 100W when resting).Also we've grilled to death already how it's impossible to use tiny amounts of power to correct large amounts, that's basic thermodynamics.Backfeeding breakers is also iffy, only certain types allow it. Drawing power from them and backfeeding them is even more iffy. Due to the above, the backfed power, or clamping a surge might trip the breaker. You have succeeded in making a self defeating device that will shut off it's own connection when it tries to surge protect.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 01:22:07 pm
content: No, they are not FACTS at this point, you are spouting buzzwords and wankery, not explaining anything in actual QUANTIFIABLE muasurements in terms of things like patent papers, charts/graphs, actual verifiable figures. All you are doing is making CLAIMS, not backing them up, which is what we've BEEN ASKING. You have shown 0 PROOF that your device does what you say it does, and you say you are not an engineer on their team so how does that qualify you to explain anything? I could do the same thing and claim I have a cold fusion generator that harnesses zero point energy and the power of lunar phases.How about you open that blue box and take high res photos of the inside...because if you look at the poll on top, most of us think it's full of crap. Prove us wrong and you'll earn your rep back.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 01:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 18, 2019, 12:38:51 pmNo, you really aren't. You are statingwhat it allegedly does.What this audience is looking for are real explanations of what the components are, what the circuit looks like (at least a block diagram), and what the algorithms do (again, a high-level technical summary). There must be a way of conveying that with technical credibility without giving away any trade secrets. Would you have a peer-reviewed scientific paper or a key patent which explains the principles and which you could share?

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 01:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 18, 2019, 12:38:51 pmPossibly.You are not helping in any way, though.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 06:39:01 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 18, 2019, 05:29:26 pmUS 9,178,35, "Multipurpose, universal converter...". The patent essentially seems to describe a combination of UPS, various frequency converters, and power factor correction, where the PFC is done via a DSP. Maybe tossing all these things into one device isnew. I cannot recognize (understand?) theinventivebenefits of the combination. And specifically I cannot see any hint why one should use a DSP rather than conventional power factor correction.QuoteWell, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology onthislevel:Quote(Taken from your "Whitepaper",https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 08:07:57 pm
content: Its all "wordy" ... none in numbers nor quantitative, in a pure technical talk, yeah, right.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 09:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 18, 2019, 06:39:01 pmAh, the famous 26 parameters.It's such a pity that "We do not maintain a list of the 26 parameters that are being measured/derived."So we cannot know what they are...though the amount of data is quite impressive:6-7ns sampling time, 24 bits by 26 parameter makes for digesting/processing more than 10 Gbyte/s, that's quite some DSP power!

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 09:26:07 pm
content: Well there we have the breakthru, a 24 bit ENOB ADC at MHz ratesSeriously, that part I would buy (and so would many, many, others), forget mucking around with the power waveform, that ADC technology right there is **money**.3DFS need to get some actual engineers in this discussion, letting the marketing intern play on the internet unsupervised is comedy for us, but someone really needs to warn them.Thing is I have bought kit that does not a million miles from what I suspect that box is actually capable of (Eat at least some of the current harmonics and tart up the power factor in realtime), and may buy more, but there is one company now on my 'no way in hell' list.To quote my old boss "NUMBERS DAMMIT!", nobody here is afraid of getting down and technical, and you have a patent so there are no trade secret issues.Where are the real datasheets as opposed to 4 colour glossies?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 11:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 18, 2019, 10:49:33 pmGet into the multimeter market. Such a device, if it lives up to its claims, would completely revolutionize the way measurements are made.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 11:06:22 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 18, 2019, 10:49:33 pmQuote from: NiHaoMike on May 18, 2019, 11:03:57 pmFTFY

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 11:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 18, 2019, 10:34:53 pmBonkers.Quote from: cdoerfler on May 18, 2019, 10:49:33 pmBonkers.Edit. added the bold bit.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 11:43:47 pm
content: I think there was also something about "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?I would take a claim of 24 bits ENOB @ 1MHz as being extraordinary, so where is the extraordinary evidence?Frankly nobody here will take you or your company seriously until you actually come up with REAL NUMBERS, we are engineers, numbers are what we do.....Thermodynamics (Not to say the whole position/momentum uncertainty thing) says that there can be no such thing as a perfect measurement in less then infinite time, so for a 1MHz 24 ENOB ADC, what are your numbers? Linearity, settling time, offset, scale range, bandwidth, power consumption you know the basic stuff?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 11:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on May 18, 2019, 11:43:47 pmDon't forget the nanoseconds, so the sampling speed is 100MHz or more!I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead itdissipatesthe lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/msg1590616/#msg1590616It's a pity there's no one here with enough knowledge of electricy to explain why that's not going to work.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 04:54:48 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on May 18, 2019, 11:51:00 pmAgree, the lightning strike turns instantly into arcing plasma, and then the whole fully charged plasma gas will be blown out from the system by the constantly running high power fans, so no more hazard, get it ?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 05:42:56 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 19, 2019, 04:54:48 amHoly shit, they've invented a device that shoots ball lightning out it's fans! Now I can finally make a homemade plasma gun!In fact, that's what I called him out on earlier and he was like "no, you're wrong". If you shunt a surge with a device connected through breakers, it'll just trip the breakers.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 08:33:41 am
content: Many years ago, when I was a highschool kid, there was a fellow in my home city who thought he had squared the circle, and proven that Pi = 3.2. He published a series of full-page ads in the local newspaper, which gave excerpts of his proof, but also devoted a lot of page space to extolling the virtues and benefits of this discovery, and to praising the Lord.Being a smartass kid, I figured I would reach out to the guy and show him the errors of his ways. Phoned him, arranged an afternoon visit, and was warmly welcomed by a retired man who was pleased that someone took an interest. (Side note -- yes, this was a time when parents let their 15-year-old kid go out on his own to visit a stranger...)I left in the evening with a copy of his self-published book with the full "proofs", and with a lot of frustration. The guy's way of reasoning was so different from what I had learned in school: He kept starting from unproven claims and arguing round in circles until he reached the conclusion that the claim was true, etc. -- I could not get a foot in the door. The book was the same.I concluded that arguing with this type of evangelist isnota fun way to test your (math) skills, but that it is pointless. I have typically given wide berth to these types of "discoveries" from thereon. I still have the book, and have occasionally looked at it to remind me of that learning...Now wait -- why was I telling that story here?

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 11:00:12 am
content: I think it is simpler then that, I think we are either the research subjects in a psychology experiment (Wonder what the IRB had to say), or we are just straight up being trolled!Regards, Dan.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 11:34:06 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 18, 2019, 10:49:33 pmFor starters, please read up on quantization errors and noise. Then look into measurement errors. There's no error free data acquisition! With such claims 3DFS is becoming a laughing stock.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 09:13:51 pm
content: EMP Detection: Software-Defined Electricity operates on the principle of oversampling inputs to extract maximum information on the power flow to deliver the most possible time to react to any electrical event. EMP travels in waves.In oceans preceding a tsunami, shore water recedes significantly back before the inrush. A similar phenomenon is true with EMP in power networks.Time is the most precious resource related to EMP damage mitigation. The sooner it is detected, the more time there is to react.3dfs.com/news/3dfs-selected-as-finalist-for-nato-innovation-challenge/05/2019Edit. Is there any evidence that the bold bit even exits for EMP, I've not been able to find any, yet.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 10:11:32 am
content: Why isn't this troll already banned?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 10:45:52 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on May 20, 2019, 10:11:32 amBut then he wouldn't be able to tell us who the manufacturer of the 24 bit 100MHz error free ADCs is.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 10:46:50 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 20, 2019, 10:09:02 amI've now read many pages on lightning and nuke EMP, not one mentions or shows the tsunami effect. I think you're making it up.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 11:35:46 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 20, 2019, 11:00:59 amI always suspected it was just the reading of thedigital valuesout of the ADC that was error free, everyone can do that.QuoteIt oversamplesdigitalvalues? What does that even mean.QuoteNope, "the input" to what? As the analogue readings are full of random and measurement errors, no data onwards is error free.It probably uses 24 bit math, and you're totally confused.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 12:40:18 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 20, 2019, 11:51:27 amThanks for trying, I've tried, and no one will make sense of that!How many bits wide is the "input data"? I suppose if it was cut down to only 6 bits wide you could claim that any error must be less than one LSB so it's error free.Changing 60Hz power is so ruff and ready that quite a bit a error won't matter at all, so all the claims of 24 bit error free data is total nonsense.QuoteLOL

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 01:39:28 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 20, 2019, 11:51:27 amI'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I will ask one last time: Do you have a technical publication, scientific paper, or patent application which describes this? You position this as a rather central idea for 3DFS's business, with applications well beyond electricity. You can't bank on keeping it as a trade secret, right? So why not explain it in technical terms, preferably to a patent examiner?

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 06:01:43 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on May 20, 2019, 10:11:32 amBecause we are all having too much fun with this thread and even learning new marketing spin terms and outright fantasy.This stuff is science fiction without the science.It is true that engineers love a good argument.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 06:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 20, 2019, 02:55:39 pmAhh, now we are getting somewhere. So youintentionallynever explained how your technology works. And there I was, wondering whether we had a communication problem, maybe caused by different educational background.Could you please share the peer-reviewed papers and independent third-party studies of theresultsthen?

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 06:40:40 pm
content: So the little blue box senses analog anomalies at the breaker panel and over samples these glitches to make sure it hasn’t erred.All of this over sampling takes a finite amount of time.Then it converts this huge amount of oversampling into 24 bit digital signals and sends it to the processor. This certainly isn’t instantaneous.Then the processor accesses the super-secret algorithm and decides the best way to deal with the myriad of spikes, sags, harmonics etc. present; this has to be done for each unique anomaly in order to provide the promised results. Happens in no time, no doubt.Then the processor signals the appropriate switching of some more secret circuitry that can magically capture the spikes and use the energy to fill in the sags. WOW And even better this all happens in real time as fast as the anomalies initiate and stop them in their tracks.Maybe it utilizes the infamous flux capacitor to magically go back in time and correct the problems before they happen; but how does it get to 88 miles an hour?Maybe the marketing wizards at 3DFS believe the grid is make believe and all digital, like The Matrix. And the blue box can magically stop the digital glitches in mid cycle.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 09:15:45 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on May 20, 2019, 06:40:40 pmThey claim oversampling makes the response faster.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2422518/#msg2422518

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 12:10:32 pm
content: So.. You are asking a forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.I am sure anything is possible if you change the rules of engagement... If you cannot, using todays widely accepted norms and standards, to demonstrate the use and benifit of your system I doubt if you can get anyone to even understand what you are wanting to communicate.Sure, your stuff does work... but before you revolutionise physics and electronics and anything else inbetween... explain in todays terms and standards..In the words of Richard Feynman "If you cannot explain it simply, you dont understand it".Either that or you are stringing everyone along...Quote from: cdoerfler onTodayat 09:22:36 pm

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 12:12:55 pm
content: Which leads me to my next question...If you are sure that traditional power quality analyzers are useless.. how are you able to demonstrate the effectiveness of your technology?What is the T&M equipment your reports are based on???What are they using for data acquisition??

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 12:50:05 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on May 21, 2019, 12:10:32 pmNice summary of the key points, krish.Feels strangely familiar to the sales pitch made by the typical "audiophoolery" vendors...

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 02:21:19 pm
content: Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way."The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)to name a few...And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.Quote from: cdoerfler onYesterdayat 11:56:58 pm

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 04:39:01 pm
content: As I said, you are wanting to redefine science in order to prove your alleged claims... The T&M instruments are not accurate / precise enough...We can prove our claims using our technology... Our method of measurement reveals that no energy is saved....Ok, I ll bite.. First step to accepting your paradigm shift is to repeat the tests.. So how do you do what you do... doesnt have to be extremely specific in details.. just the broad sequence of steps to repeat your process... A -> B ->C....And how is it any different from any COTS solution...Let me rephrase.. what are you doing different, in order to get your claimed improvements?Quote from: cdoerfler onTodayat 12:55:31 am

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 04:46:30 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 21, 2019, 01:54:44 pmI wonder why they don't believe your claims. It's not as if you fill the interwebs with impossible claims, or anything like that.I wonder why the voltage and current are so out of phase.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 06:08:04 pm
content: Evasive, inconclusive and vague at best...I asked for the precise sequence of steps to replicate your success....All you are giving me is the marketing material and investors pitch talk..I am asking for this..1. Setup a test rig of this capacity and this load..2. Now measure V/I at these and these points...3. Now this measurements has to happen at 20 or 30 Mhz.. meaning you need a FPGA and a fast ADC with lots of memory...4. Since we are aiming for 24 bits ENOB the signal path has to be clean and be guarded against any noise... meaning we need these and these safeguards..5. Now with the measured data... perform this and this transform...6. We end up with this results...7. This is where our AHA moment comes into play...8. We use this data is this manner (which is different from the mainstream COTS correction)9. Now we use this calculated parameters to correct the supply in precisely this fashion...10. Now we are able to observe these and these results before and after the correction...You see where I am going with this... If I ( or anyone cant replicate this sequence) then whatever you say might be fluff....That is what I and many others meant by repeatability...Quote from: cdoerfler onTodayat 04:00:08 am

author: pigrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2019, 06:28:52 pm
content: It looks like the current sensors and voltage sensors are mixed up between lines? And all of the current clamps are put on backwards?L1: U(Gray), I(-Red)L2: U(Red), I(-Blue)L3: U(Blue), I(-Gray)Because of this, the total powers are wrong (for the uncorrected case on the left). There must be a significant amount of energy storage, probably nearly 1 power-line-cycle of the max power? Maybe around 10 mF of capacitance at 120VDC. However, it has to be able to take up the current very quickly during the peaks. The control loop can't know the future, so perhaps it is correcting the current draw to be balanced based on the power which had been drawn the previous cycle? If all goes wrong (runs out of energy, demand wasn't what was expected, etc), then it can just give up at a zero-crossing and reset its state machine.This could go very wrong when equipment draws energy every other power line cycle. Don't some triac-based heaters do that? The other strategy would be to just have a couple power line cycles of energy, so that it could average it out over a few cycles, but there should always be some pathological case where the correction fails.EDIT/POSTSCRIPT: While I believe that this overall technology is reasonable (excluding some bad descriptions of it) and good for some niche applications, it's likely much better to just balance your loads and migrate to power equipment which has less harmonics (replace VFDs, etc, with newer models). However, I've never worked in an industrial setting, so I don't know how the economics balance out.Quote from: StillTrying on May 21, 2019, 04:46:30 pm

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 12:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: pigrew on May 21, 2019, 06:28:52 pmYes that will be it, as usual 3DFS haven't a clue.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 01:41:49 pm
content: It could be simply the phase difference between voltage and current. What those graphs also show is that the load optimization increases the phase shifting. This is to be expected since the blue box needs time for measurements, calculation and power correction. And the capacitance and inductance of mains wiring and loads don't make the job easier. So any power correction will have a delayed impact. This also means the box doesn't provide much benefit for data centers. To increase power efficiency and to reduce bills for power a HV DC power distribution (incl. HV DC PSUs for servers and network elements) would make more sense.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 07:34:32 pm
content: Err, the whole point of a box doing power factor correction is to REDUCE the phase angle between the voltage and the current!This is just a measurement screwup with placing the current clamps.The real value in these sort of fairly small AHF boxes (But I like mine with actual data and salted with less gibberish) is when you are doing something like changing the use of an existing building and find you have neutral overload issues for example because of that whole floor of cheap ass PCs your accounts department put in.Much cheaper to knock off 40A or so of triplen with an AHF box then it is to pull bigger wire 8 floors up thru trunking that is too small!Band aid, maybe, but it gets your site signed off.I had an issue in a theatre (LOADS of phase angle dimming that changes moment by moment), the choices were an AHC box (Quite a big one at that) or a 315kVA K rated delta-star transformer that we had no space for.....The (Real) AHC tech has a valid use case, it is the frantic fluffing by the marketing guy that is cracking me up.Regards, Dan.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:02:05 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on May 22, 2019, 07:34:32 pmBut only to the requirement of the utility company of course... that requires a proof and a reason. The thing is that the power that is installed and paid for today includes all costs needed to run the system - with all its inefficiencies and a good amount of safety margin.They do not make up a problem and sell you the solution. Apparent power and real power are one thing, sinusoidal current is another. And then there is wear and tear, but i don´t get how the shape in which the heat or vibration is produced would make that much of a difference or if it is the main cause for failures in the first place. Maybe there is no point in mitigating effects that do not preempt the first failure that typically occurs.Then there is this: Why should a customer try to solve a problem that the utility does not recognize as such if the goal is to protect the grid and transformer and acutally prolongs its life. Wouldn´t that be in the interest of the utility and therefore fixed there? Utilities have plenty of data, plenty of customers and can see which loads cause which failures.Maybe in fringe cases with island grids that operate too close to physical limits this plays a role, but there the supplier and load are usually under the same control and could be solved on the side of the load anyway. But you are usually not in a good situation when intentionally operating too close to physical limits, it is called bad design.QuoteWhich could be solved/mitigated in the first place by rearranging loads between phases. Cheapest way possible, just change clamps. But this technology is not about phase split, it is about a one-sided redefinition of what Power Quality Rating means.Btw. there are some data protocols on the grid... like switching on street lights, nightly rate for electrical heaters. You do not want to compensate those.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 06:14:16 am
content: Moving loads between phases does not help if the neutral current is mostly third harmonic however, because third harmonic sums in the neutral rather then cancelling.This is what had me on that theatre install, full load at 30% on the dimmers and the RMS neutral current wound up to nearly 200% of the phase current.Agreed, that you only fix as much as is economical, but in this case AHF was MUCH more cost effective then burning the triplen as heat in a delta-star transformer, mostly because we did not have a good location for the transformer.The other interesting application is in sites where you have significant voltage harmonics AND static power factor correction cap banks (Which REALLY don't like voltage harmonics because they push up the current in the cap bank by a lot). AHC setup to reduce the voltage harmonics only can allow a significantly smaller current rating on the passive cap bank. Usually an issue out on the end of a long feed line where the supply impedance is not as low as it could be.Now both are slightly niche applications, and there are usually cheaper ways to skin this, but the AHF tools have a place.Agreed that the marketing drivel is unusually severe with this one.Regards, Dan.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 10:38:17 pm
content: 3DFS think their load current balancing S/W has something to do with controlling the frequency of the grid.https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1133015758282342402http://www.altenergystocks.com/archives/2019/05/digital-electrification-a-path-to-adding-capacity-by-reducing-waste-heat

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 09:41:42 am
content: However, the phase current imbalance has nothing in common with the frequency.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 12:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 28, 2019, 03:18:40 pmTo correct the unbalanced currents, 3DFS's magic software has to follow the phase and frequency of the grid - whatever it is, so the amount of control that 3DFS's magic software has on the frequency is less than zero.Edit! How would it even know if the 60Hz's phase should be moved slightly a head or behind what it currently is.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 12:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on May 29, 2019, 12:23:06 pmI don't think cdoerfler is claiming that 3DFS canactively controlthe frequency of the grid. Rather, he seems to state that 3DFS can avoid load fluctuations, to which the grid would otherwise need to respond by varying the frequency.However, it is unclear to me whether that second claim is correct. Assuming that the 3DFS technology can only compensate for load imbalances between phases, how would that change the overall load the grid sees?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 01:27:37 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 29, 2019, 01:07:56 pmYou've lost me there (again), I'm afraid."Software defined" grid frequency ??

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 02:06:28 pm
content: The grid frequency is controlled by the (im-)balance of the power fed into the grid and the power consumed by loads.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 03:26:50 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 29, 2019, 01:51:35 pmBonkers!"It cannot correct the entire grids frequency,"But it can correct just part of the grid's frequency?Or different parts of the grid will have a different frequency?"but when fully distributed throughout the grid,"Don't worry, it won't be!"frequency response will no longer be needed."I'm amazed (but not much!) that you think the changing phase and frequency of the grid is a fault. You seem to think large rotating machinery being unstable and having inertia is the problem, compared with electronics (24-bit over-sampled, sub-cycle, and in real time of course!).It would be very easy to use atomic clocks to keep a rotating machine's frequency and phaseexactfor ever if we wanted, perhaps you could suggest the idea to the big electricky suppliers as yet another SDE innovation.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 09:49:38 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on May 20, 2019, 10:09:02 am"On 30 May 2019 the 7 finalists of the NATO innovation Challenge pitched their solutions to a jury composed of experts and authorities from the Czech Ministry of Defence, NATO Transformation Command, NATO Science and Technology Organization, Old Dominion University and the Czech Academy of Science...The US based company Electronics Service won the Challenge,"It seems you didn't manage to convince those experts of the EMP tsunami effect either!https://innovationhub-act.org/content/innovation-challenge-winnerQuote from: cdoerfler on May 29, 2019, 01:51:35 pmI remember thinking about that at the time. A generator changes the phase/frequency by adding or removing energy/fuel, it's impossible to use a 3ph supply's own energy to change its frequency.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 04:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 05, 2019, 02:31:13 pmThe problem is your EMP tsunami effect doesn't exist!"Re: phase frequency, again you are incorrect. The device is temporarily storing the energy in the FESS which is then a separate source for instant injection. It is also where any extraction is temporarily stored. By temporarily storing the extracted energy and then using it when an injection is required, the device does not have to consume any "new power" from the grid/generator for the injections."It's impossible for the phase/frequency in the wires to suddenly change as it passes the VectorQ2."This is part of what allows the device to be 98% efficient."Your efficiencies hardly ever make any sense. If the VectorQ2 is doing many kWs of current correction it's efficiency should be well over 100%, if there's almost no current correcting to be done it's efficiency is less than zero, 98% doesn't come into it.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 04:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 05, 2019, 04:13:05 pmAgree. If thetime-averagedefficiency is less than 100%, you would be better off not installing that thing, right?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 04:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 05, 2019, 04:28:49 pmYes,it's only for high current, bad PF, unbalanced load, and charged for it, customers really, but they claimed to be developing one for the home. LOL.In the video above somewhere, PQ somehow gets mixed with power used, charged for, and overall electrical efficiency, perhaps what's happening at the supplier's transformer is some of the 26 parameters.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 09:26:13 pm
content: It's difficult the know where to start here, but I'll have a go.Quote from: cdoerfler on June 05, 2019, 05:33:55 pm"The Vector is making minute, in situ corrections with tiny amounts of current."It will be making (very roughly) around 20mA sizedadjustmentsto about 3 Amps of current. 20mAisa tiny amount of current to a 3 ph supply, and nothing to do with micro Amps, the control signals will be higher than micro Amps."It does not require massive amounts of current because it is maintaining the synchronization."It requires the larger current corrections approx.every1/4 mains cycle, there's no such thing as "massive current now no longer required because it's maintaining the synchronization"."Its like steering while driving, there are small corrections as you drive, not massive back and forth over steering (which would be the case using cap banks)."No, It's more like peddling up a quite steep hill, you can't just stop peddling once you've got the bike moving up the hill."It is true that if the power is perfect coming in the facility,"You probably mean, if the load(s) are already drawing their current in phase and balanced, which is a quite bit different."The calculation of efficiency is key here."ROTFL"We are using 70-120W of power at all times to correct (bring to full synchonization and balance) of 60kW at all times."The 70-120W is just for the magic computing, the power control devices will use and dissipate more, especially if they're switching Amps at MHz frequencies."Don't forget surge protection,"I haven't! It doesn't do very much in the way of surge protection, the wires are much to thin!"asset performance improvement"LOL How do the assets even know if the current in the supplier's transformer is balanced or not."The residential version is a trickier business case. Outside of high consumers of power or special cases like audiophiles,"Yeah, there's nothing there, even for audiophools."If a home has solar and an EV, the case becomes very clear though as it improves the output of the solar and charging times and rates of the ev charger"You've mentioned the correction ofthe outputpower of solar and generators, for these devices does the VectorQ2 have to be connected backwards, think about it!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 10:26:02 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 05, 2019, 05:33:55 pmWhen I load one phase with 60kW then the blue box would have to take 40kW from the other two phases for balancing. Let's do a very simplified calculation. The current would be about 350A (40kW/115V) and a super nice MOSFET with an R_DS_on of 2mOhms would drop about 0.7V (350A * 0.002Ohms). So the MOSFET burns roughly 250W (350A * 0.7V). Surely there are more components the current has to pass through.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 02:21:10 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 06, 2019, 12:00:20 pmNo! When I load L1 with 60kW (L1 to N), how does the blue box balance the 60kW across all three phases in a way the grid's three phases are loaded equally with 20kW each?BTW, if the blue box has an efficiency of 98% and is able to deal with 60kW the inefficiency is 1200W.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 02:55:20 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 06, 2019, 12:00:20 pmAround 50% of your claims are electrically or physically impossible or just nonsense. Most of them are nothing to do with your methods or our understanding of your methods, they're just laws of the universe. It's a very target rich environment.When you're trying to show whichdirectionthe power or current is flowing in wires on a diagram it would help if N and G weren't connected at one of the loads.Quote from: cdoerfler on June 06, 2019, 12:58:11 amA 1cm x 1cm CPU can dissipate 150W with a small heat sink and small fan, no one would have to use water cooling, oil cooling and 2 big fans to dissipate 70-120W.Why don't you say that is uses only 120W while correcting 60kW worth of power. That would make it's efficiency 120/60,000 =99.998 %.99.8 % which is even better!QuoteThe current correction is not bidirectional, which is why the current transformerhasto go on thesupply sideof the current correcting connection. Another simpler reason is that it's impossible.QuoteWhen the currents and voltages are alignedin the suppliers transformer, the currents and voltagesin the motorwill still be misaligned, theonlyway for the currents and voltages to be aligned in a motor is for it to not be a motor.Your claims that you somehow correct the phase of the current inside motors and make them better is among the most ridiculous, I'm surprised you continue with them. There's at least one other thread on it somewhere.QuoteThat's not all bad, just some.QuoteNot true, and Bonkers!

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 04:24:49 pm
content: I am just wandering, why isn't this thread already locked, trashed, and troll blocked?

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 03:13:56 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on June 06, 2019, 04:24:49 pmAlthough controversial, this thread is entertaining and somewhat educational (if an interested person wants to take the time to look up the claims and arguments presented). There aren’t very many posts on this forum related to mains and grid AC power. Power engineering should be near and dear to most electronics enthusiasts because it is the probably the most often used power source for most of us. Plus, it hasn’t really crossed the lines of unacceptability to the point of banning.It is the batterizer for mains power; note the number of posts this forum had for the batterizer. Similar to the batterizer there are very loose connections to reality that might look good drawn on the back of a napkin after a couple of pints at the local pub.It is also entertaining to observe someone digging themselves into a hole and wondering how deep they get before it all collapses. The anticipation of if or when a real working model is available helps keep interest even if the odds approach zero of getting real verifiable data from the purveyors of this theoretical device.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 05:10:32 am
content: Of course there's a market in the audiophool trade. It's the next best thing since a copper rod in a box of rocks."Complete surge protection" when the wires are thin and it's supposedly going to sink the surge current through it's own supply breakers. If you try to sink current beyond a certain point it would, by the laws of physics, trip it's own breakers.We've been throught this..."I reject your reality and substitute my own!" -Adam Savage

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 01:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 06, 2019, 04:24:56 pmIts current correcting wires are too thin and inductive for it to do much in the way of surge protection, never mind complete surge protection.QuoteThe current corrections and thepower directioncorrections only apply to the supply side. It's impossible to change the current, or the two waypower directionof a load with bad PF on the loads side.QuoteI've checked, I'm not!Details, just in case there's anyone still reading.The CTs measure the current on the supply side of the current correcting wire, from there they can determine the supply side power and it's direction.The CTs can't measure anything on the loads side of the correction wire because they're not there.And nothing can be done with thecurrentorpower directionson the load side anyway, because it is the load(s) that determine it.So the current corrections correct the direction of power flow on the supply side so that the supply power direction is always flowingfromthe supply.But the supply side current corrections can't change anything at all on the load side, so can't change any of the 2 way power directions or PF of the loads.Nothing changes at all on the loads side so it can't fix a motor's PF, or any thing else on the loads side. But it does hide the 2 way power direction fluctuations from the incoming supply.QuoteIt cleans the power on the supply side so that the power's direction there is alwaysfromthe supply.But on the load side the two way power fluctuations due to a load's bad PF are still there. So bits like "unintelligent loads consuming precisely what they demanded" and "power fluctuations" are just nonsense.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 02:16:02 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 08, 2019, 01:42:45 pmFor a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?QuoteBy using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 06:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 08, 2019, 05:51:34 pmChris, your statements do not make any sense.The problem with the "detached surge protection" is the inductance and resistance of the long cables. No matter what you do in that magical blue box, it will not be able to protect the wiring from fast high-voltage surges, because most of the surge energy does not evengetto your blue box. All your "digital", "software defined", "intelligent sensing" is just smoke and mirrors.I do not understand why you keep posting here. You are not gaining a shred of credibility here -- every single one of your posts is torn apart by various people, and for very good reasons. It cannot be fun to do this, at least not for you... And if you have the commercial interests of 3DFS in mind, the best you could try and do is to let this thread peter out and hope not too many people find it.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 06:46:03 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 08, 2019, 05:51:34 pmExactly!You forgot the wire between the detached blue box and the distribution panel. If you want to suppress surges you need to do it inline with mains for optimal results. As StillTrying already has explained, the wire has inductance for example. The next thing you got wrong are TVSs. MOVs degrade with each surge. TVSs don't degrade as long as you don't exceed their limits.QuoteDoesn't matter! As long as it's a transformer you can only measure AC, not DC. Also very basic stuff.Anyway, I have to admit that you convinced me that the blue box is nothing I would buy or recommend to others. If that was your goal, you've succeeded.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 06:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 08, 2019, 05:51:34 pmThe above is why people here think you have zero credibility. You go around telling people that they don't know what they are talking about and then make a statement like that. Somebody studying electricity in a(high) school physics class(not even college level) ought to know that DC does not make it across a transformer, ought to know that transformers are strictly AC transducers. This isn't a difference of opinion, a difference of perspective or anything like that, you are just plain flat-out wrong - there is no other way of framing it. If you are incapable of getting the very basics right, fundamental laws of physics, why should anybody trust you to discuss more advanced topics?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 07:09:08 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 08, 2019, 06:42:29 pmNeither do I. Maybe it's his education in psychology. All I get from this is that 3DFS is the Batteroo for mains. I can imagine that a Fourier based approach might possibly work, but that would involve a lot of processing and a large box without tiny wires.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 07:21:02 pm
content: Maybe we are underestimating Chris...https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherdoerfler/(I have criticized others for linking to the LinkedIn profile of pseudonymus users before, but since Chris has been open about his 3DFS affiliation I trust this is OK. Chris, if you prefer this link to be removed, please let me know and I will edit the post.)

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 01:41:36 am
content: No your invention would violate well established laws of electrical physics that have been studied for about220 FUCKING YEARS!If you can suddenly bend the laws of physics to your will then where's our lightsabers, cold fusion, open air holograms, ftl travel, forcefields, exc.And to be clear, we aren't the only ones onto your BS.https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=187471&page=3https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 03:17:04 am
content: It's a nice thread, and cdoerfler is either bonkers or just a sales person; in many cases it may be hard to tell the difference. My only issue with the thread is that other bits of mis-information is also being included by other users. The two most egregious one's I've spotted are “Backfeeding breakers is also iffy, only certain types allow it” and “For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached.”For the first I’ve never seen a breaker that isn’t bi-directional. Some of the more ‘intelligent’ trip units can have reverse power flow detection and such which may trip a breaker if the current flows opposite to that which is expected, but that’s about it.For the second the vast, vast, vast majority of surge suppression is carried out by a device, whether it be a MOV, SASD, TVSS etc, that is placed in parallel with the incoming line. The feed to the protection device needs to be as short as possible but the device is certainly not put in-line.My 2 cents worth

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 06:18:41 am
content: Quote from: sibeen on June 09, 2019, 03:17:04 amI am pretty sure this is what everybody meant when talking about "in-line" surge protection: A protection device that sits in the same box as your main fuses or distribution board, to allow for short, fat connections. That's in contrast to the 3DFS connections to the blue box, which seem to be on the long and flimsy side (photo below). Yes, of course the blue box can short out some surge voltage, but only the part that gets to it...To put it another way, "in-line" does not mean "in series" (at least to this non-native speaker.)

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 06:54:24 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 09, 2019, 06:18:41 amI can live with thatI also had a thought about the circuit breaker, some RCBO/RCD/ELCB type breakers may also be directional in their current sensing and may also trip if installed 'backwards', but for your general purpose ACB/MCCB/MCB, for those in IEC world, couldn't give a rats about which way they face.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 10:34:17 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 08, 2019, 05:51:34 pmCalibri series is not even a current transformer, and you can't make a coil transformer work down to DC by using faster data acquisition.I've seen much better logic from an internet bot.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 02:17:12 pm
content: I'm out of here. As long as all we get from cdoerfler is the insistencethatit works, combined with both the unwillingness and inability to explainhowit supposedly works, this thread is not going anywhere.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 02:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 09, 2019, 01:26:55 pmWe understand basic physics perfectly well. There IS nothing to understand about your BS, you CAN'T violate the laws of physics. That's why the other forums are calling you out.What is more likely, that you suddently invent tech that can violate 200 year old laws of phsics and you use it for a boring little PF corrector instead of fancy sci-fi stuff, or that you are simply a very persistant charlitan that has gone nuts believing their own shit? You are not even a real engineer, you are a goon."I reject your reality and substitute my own" -Adam SavageFor example you CAN'T detect DC with a transformer. Physics dictates that you CANNOT create a current with a static magnetic field. No amount of electronic rubbish can change that. "flex coil transformers"Do you also have a flux capacitor? Surprised you didn't use a hall effect sensor as an excuse, at least that can detect static fields.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 02:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 09, 2019, 02:17:12 pmHe's not an engineer, he's a marketing puppet. He's been driven mad into wholely believing anything the phony dev team dishes out to him to spew on the internet. He fails miserably every time when he encounters real engineers. (just look at the top vote)The only people he's managed to fool are the dumb media who also believed in things like waterseer, ubeam, batterizer, fontus, exc. And guess what happened to those...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 03:56:53 pm
content: If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 06:25:49 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 09, 2019, 03:03:45 pmThanks.But the laws of physics that your claims violate were made billions of years ago, haven't changed, and are the same everywhere, so we don't have to be where you are to know how they work.QuoteYou claim to have a team of engineers, research scientists and power experts working for years, demonstrations and evaluations, and then claim that the current corrections at the panel "clean the power" and cause asynchronous motors to operate synchronously loaded or not. Even after everyone says those motors don't work like that, and that the PFat the load/motordoesn't change anyway!https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1070789837026783232Has any happy customer witnessed that miracle fake claim first hand.I thought not!I'm afraid many of your claims of what the VectorQ2 can do are worse than bonkers, I might have to upgrade bonkers to fake.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 10:36:22 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 10, 2019, 10:03:24 amIn your assessment, what fraction of that 68% loss is addressable by 3DFS load balancing?Hmm, seems I amnotout of here yet...Must practice self control...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 11:58:23 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 10, 2019, 10:03:24 amHave a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.Quote from: cdoerfler on June 10, 2019, 10:03:24 amAre transmission losses BS?

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 12:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler (emphasis mine) on June 10, 2019, 10:03:24 amSo, you disproved Carnot's theorem?That's an interesting development...

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 12:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on June 10, 2019, 12:44:19 pmCome on, let’s stay reasonable. He said that other effects (losses) are dominant, not that Carnot‘s theorem is invalid.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 10, 2019, 12:30:22 pmWe don't blindy except them, they were established physics since the big bang.Transmission loss has nothing to do with "harmionic losses" throughout the entire system (total bullshit). Everything that isn't a superconductor in an AC system has an impedance at the normal operating frequency even with a perfect sine wave and PF. That's basic high school physics that your superiors must have beaten out of you for you to believe this rubbish.EDIT: In fact, hydroelectric power is nearly 100% effiecient, the only losses due to said impedance. This 68% only applies to steam plants where the losses are mainly in the steam system.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:05:45 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 10, 2019, 12:54:24 pmThen why bring it up? What's his point?There must be a language barrier. I honestly understand 10% of what he writes. I can grammatically parse the sentences, but they just don't mean anything to me most of the times...this is another example:Quote

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on June 10, 2019, 01:05:45 pmYes, there clearly is a barrier -- not so much in language, but in thought process, scientific background, and intent of the communication. I think Chris is to some extent muddying the waters intentionally, since he is delivering his sales pitch. And to some extent he just does not understand the underlying fundamentals.As a result, I find there is no willingness or ability on Chris' part to differentiate:What are unavoidable losses (be they due to resistive losses, stray magnetic fields in a generator, Carnot cycle in a thermodynamic machine etc.), vs. which losses can be reduced by ensuring good load balancing and sinusoidal currents/voltages? Heck, a lot of the losses in the Lawrence Livermore chart have nothing to do with electrical systems at all...What relative improvements does the 3DFS "digital" approach bring over traditional approaches for load balancing etc.? It's not like the 3DFS gadgets cannot have any benefit at all -- but why, and to what extent, would they be better than classical approaches?Anyway, I don't have high hopes for qualified, differentiated answers...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 02:24:33 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 10, 2019, 12:30:22 pmI see, you are talking about losses caused by phase-shifting and so on. But those losses are only a part of the total sum of losses. There are things like wire resistance and transformer losses (even for a perfect sine wave and a PF of 1). Your argumentation based on the total sum of losses is misleading.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 02:51:51 pm
content: Some interesting stuff about the utilities' side:-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_booster-https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/where-and-why-do-we-use-phase-shifting-transformers-https://new.siemens.com/global/en/products/energy/high-voltage/transformers/phase-shifting-transformers.htmlAnd numbers about transmission and distribution losses for different countries:-https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.LOSS.ZSFrom 3 up to 71%

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 07:20:56 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 10, 2019, 01:55:06 pmYour last 2 posts aren't bad, but don't worry, your nanoseconds and 24-bits are still nonsense,Quote from: cdoerfler on June 10, 2019, 02:53:14 pmAt about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041"For renewables and energy storage, inverters replaced by SDE enabled inverters will result in anywhere from 20-40% more output."

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:51:39 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 11, 2019, 07:20:56 amMost likely he do not see difference between Transmission & Distribution losses and energy conversion (heat) losses.US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory chart shows total energy lost.https://youtu.be/G6dlvECRfcI?t=83FYI typical coal plant is around40%34% efficient. No way you can improve it's conversion efficiency using fancy "digital electricity box". Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 09:38:24 am
content: Quote from: ogden on June 11, 2019, 08:51:39 amI think it's more like 34%. It seems unlikely that after spending 80 years chasing 0.5% improvements, that everybody missed an obvious 50%-80%.3DFS should use their magic software to control and balance the wheels of a car in real-time, this would nearly double the output from the engine.... by keeping the cylinders in-phase.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 10:41:38 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:07:24 amYou must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 10:41:55 am
content: cdoerfler,I think you are among the top runners for the price for "most arrogant person" on this forum.There are so much BS in your so called "technical explanations" that it is hard to know where to start.You are not doing yourself or your company any favors at the moment.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 10:43:34 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:34:19 amHere's your quote: Microscope is pointless in application where you need telescope or just simple ruler

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 11:01:16 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:49:10 amEE quote of the year.Seems, due to specifics of your "business", you simply cannot change your mantra no matter what. Thank you for good laugh

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 11:05:23 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:57:33 amYou have not posted reports that reveal actual grid efficiency numbers. If you did - no need to spam indeed, provide just link to that post.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 12:27:09 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:07:24 amYou always have this problem with time, measurement and RMS.Nothing useful counts in an AC power measurement until at least 1 16.7ms cycle has passed. If you did measure power at 16.7ms intervals every result would be different as loads vary, so it's a good idea to take a average measurement ofpowerover a few minutes and not just 1 cycle or less.This doesn't have very much at all to do with the fact that the sampling of the actual waveforms will be at much smaller intervals than 1 cycle to record an accurate shape.PF correcting does have to be done on intervals of much less than 1 mains cycle, but that doesn't have much to do with thepowermeasurement which has to be an average over at least 1 mains cycle.Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:34:19 amIf you look at an ant under a microscope it might look like an elephant, but it's still an ant, it wouldn't be any heavier.You're claiming it is an elephant, as in if you looked at a 1% loss much more closely and accurately it becomes a 50-80% loss.QuoteI make it a few less than that.QuoteI would hope so! Did your teams of engineers and research scientists see the fake claims you're posting all over the interwib and say, "We're having nothing at all to do with any of that".

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 01:01:52 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 12:49:43 pmI thought I explained it quite well myself.Are you suggesting they should produce GBs of data of power measurements in 6ns intervals, instead of just one number, how would they fit them all on the chart."You don't have access to that sort of data"You're wasting your time with them types of replies, we often measure thingsmuchfaster than you do, it's how we know your 6ns and 24 bits is nonsense.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 01:26:07 pm
content: Take nearly any modern AC power/energy IC used in electronic meters and you will see that even at 2500 samples/sec you can get better than 0.5% energy measurement accuracy. Using 4096 samples/sec CS5463 achieves 0.2%. Also it shall be noted that electronic metersdo notuse averaged voltage and current RMS values. They measure momentary energy quantity for each voltage/current sample instead, then obviously accumulate (attach).

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:07:45 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 01:44:56 pmWe have 32-bit ADCs.http://www.ti.com/product/ADS1263

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 01:45:59 pmIt is 4096*60*2 = 0.49 MSPS. Suddenly it is not nanosecond level, nor 6 nanoseconds level. It is not even microsecond level, it's 2 microseconds. Truly amazing how "fluid" are specs your product.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 02:18:41 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 11, 2019, 02:09:12 pmThe fastest 24-bit ADCs I could find were 4MSPS or 250ns nowhere near 6ns.6ns would be 166MSPS

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:32:45 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 12:49:43 pmYou claim that the Livermore chartpower measurementis not accurate because it's anaverage of powerover 15 minutes."Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable"You think their 15 minute increments should be just 6ns increments, how would that work ?You'll soon see you'll have toaveragelots of the 6nspower measurementstogether for it to make any sense.Do you have any idea what you're on about, nope!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:03:27 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 01:45:59 pmThat's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!I still struggle to see how either time resolution would provide useful information on mains current and voltage (rather than just heavy oversampling). But for starters, it would be good to at least get consistent numbers on what 3DFS does sample. Could you summarize that please? How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth? Thanks.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:31:24 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 04:10:50 pm1 MSPS? It's 1e6/120 = 8333.33 samples per half cycle. Just few posts ago you claimed 4096 samples per half cycle. Wow. You shall get at least consistency of your preaching right.Seems, you have no clue how sampling interval relates to sampling frequency and bandwidth of sampled signal. Instead you call those who laugh about your nanoseconds where you have by three orders of magnitude slower sampling, moronic:Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:34:19 amIn return w/o regret I can say that you are fine example of Dunning Kruger effect.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 06:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:57:33 amNope. 15 minutes = 900 seconds. 900 s x 60 Hz = 54,000 full cycles. You multiplied by 60 too many times.Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 04:10:50 pmAgain, incorrect use of multiplication.You are clearly not measuring 26 input channels with one 24 bit ADC at 6ns intervals (167 MSPS). As mentioned above there is no 24-bit ADC that can handle that. You may be doing low Mhz rates per parameter, but that wouldn't be 6ns intervals. And you want to get the most of the 24-bits, so I wouldn't think you'd want to try multiplex the ADC inputs that fast. Even at 4096 samples per half cycle (<0.5 MSPS) it is most likely using a separate ADC per measured parameter.Your own white paper states:QuoteSo with 3 phases you are really only measuring current and voltage on 4 or 5 circuits, which is 8 or 10 total measured parameters. Most of your "26 channels" are actuallyderivedvalues (presumably all the standard things that can be derived from V, I, & t). Sure those extra derived parameters may be calculated and processed in real time, but that has nothing to do with your 24-bit sample rate.In addition your white paper also states it isoversampling. I hope you understand what that actually means, considering how much flack you are giving the power generation industry use of "guesses based on averages and integrals".This kind of sales talk (obfuscation) you keep spouting is why the engineers here keep saying your statements and replies are nonsense.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 06:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 11, 2019, 04:03:27 pmThere's 3 current transformers and 3 current/voltage wires so about 6 ADC channels, there's nothing else to measure!So we can safely ignore 3DFS's claims of 26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution.They derive things such as frequency and then count it as a MHz 24 bit channel.ED: The clip on CTs will probability be about 0.3% accuracy if they're good so about 8.5 bits.#Bonkers

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 06:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 10:34:19 amYour increasingly aggressive and demeaning stance does not play well with the constant contradictions in even the few hard facts you provide.Within a single day, you have claimed sampling intervals of 6ns, 1µs, and 2µs. We don't even have to get into the discussion whether there is value in any of these (they all seem much faster than necessary to achieve your purpose, and the 24 bit ADC resolution is even worse overkill). As long as you cannot give us consistent information on even these trivial facts, your credibility is zero. And so is your standing when you choose to ridicule other forum members.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 07:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 11, 2019, 06:32:29 pmFast sample rate indeed seems like unnecessary overkill due to limited frequency content of AC mains current/voltage "signal", even when heavily distorted. I can't say the same about 24 bit ADC. Meters shall meet their accuracy in wide dynamic range. Think of TV in standby consuming 1W, then electric stove consuming 10KW. Consumption of both shall be measured precisely, with specified accuracy. As an example here's ADC designed for energy meters, 24bits, max 32KSPS:http://www.ti.com/product/ADS131M04

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 07:50:31 pm
content: This guy reminds me of the Steorn guys.Incredible arrogance mixed with incredible ignorance. Loads of talk, loads of reasons why they can’t explain crucial points of their claims.They easily fool gullible journalists and non technical management types who climb on board with “I think these guys are real guys!” Then after years of failures to demonstrate their core claim, they quietly go under and their investors shuffle away with red faces and an extreme reluctance to talk about “that time when they lost their money investing in a perpetual motion machine.”This is just a perpetual motion machine in different makeup.(Edit) The fact that this moron tries to keep selling this crap in technical forums probably means that he has drunk the kool-aid and is a full blown believer himself. Usually the conman avoids those qualified to call out his bullshit.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:09:08 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 11, 2019, 07:41:43 pmNo, I don't think you need a wide dynamic range for power factor correction and load balancing. If only 1W of standby power is drawn from my 10kW circuit, power factor corrections etc. just don't matter at all.QuoteIf you want accurate total energy, integrating precisely over a wide range of currents may be more relevant. 7 digits still seems excessive?Note the32 kHzsampling rate, btw. That's a far cry from even the slowest rate cdoerfler has claimed (1 MHz). I would venture a bet that 3DFS sample at much less than 24 bits, and then calculate various values at 24 bit resolution. Maybe an 8 bit ADC at 1 MHz, from which some gliding averages and secondary values are calculated at 24 bits? That's a cheap way to throw up some smoke and mirrors and claim "24 bit, 1 MHz".

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 08:04:40 pm

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:27:42 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 11, 2019, 08:09:08 pmPerhaps you missed other functions of the product. Quote: "Digital Multiparametric Measurement of Electricity to provide visibility with a new layer of electricity data and analytics".QuoteAs it appears - no. In addition to 24bits resolution, that "energy-aimed" ADC have PGA with gains 1, 2, 4 ... up to 128. If interested - TI have some appnotes where they proivide loads of useful information including reasoning behind their design decisions. Hardly any 24bit ADC have 24bit ENOB. Usually when I hear "24 bit ADC", I think "around 21 useful bits, 22 bits at best".QuoteRight. Agreed. At 32Khz that (delta-sigma) ADC have reduced resolution. Nominal, design target sample rate is 4KSPS.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 11, 2019, 08:27:42 pmAhh, right. "A new layer of analytics" can never have enough ADC resolution.I want my electricity measured in True Color and Dolby THC!

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:48:20 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 08:04:40 pmCan you please explain what you mean by "error free data"?Maybe we misunderstand what you mean by it. As explained previously, there is no such thing as "error free" when measuring physical phenomenon (apart from some rather exceptional circumstances). There is calibration error, quantisation error, and noise. Errors will then accumulate in any derived parameters. Read up on ENOB as mentioned by ogden."Garbage in, garbage out" as they say.QuoteYeah, if you have 24-bit inputs then unless you do your math wrong you can retain 24-bit (math)* resolution (more or less) with the derived parameters.QuoteUm, what?It was you stating that you're doing 24-bit sampling at MHz rates (it is also in your white paper).We're happy for you to correct us if we have assumed something wrong, but be professional and give us some facts if you would like to get treated professionally in return.OK, so what I understand from this response is that you sample the 2 parameters on all circuits in parallel with multiple ADCs, and I assume you then do the calculations for derived parameters "simultaneously" with an FPGA.As you state there are only two parameters you can actually measure per phase/neutral/ground circuit - i.e. voltage and current. The rest of your 26 derived parameters are going to be calculated from those plus elapsed time.Just because you may be collecting 26 parameters at a high rate doesn't mean you're sampling at the speed you have constantly implied.You have demonstrated with your own words that the 6ns sampling interval was nonsense all along.* edited to add "(math)" - rather unlikely you can calculate derived parameters like PF, phase angle, etc to actual 24 bit resolution (i.e 6+ digits!).

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 11:18:45 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 12, 2019, 10:05:17 amSo it uses oversampling and averaging to filter the input.Whoop-de-doo!That is still not "error free", it is just a technique to try improve the SNR.I thought you said yesterday that using averaging produces "guesses".QuoteSorry, but parroting the same marketing nonsense over and over without any substance behind it doesn't make it true.I tried to engage, but it is clear you just can't help yourself.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 11:46:50 am
content: Chris, what I would really love to understand is why you keep posting here. You have nothing lose here, but you can't win with this audience either.Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd? (Hint: The aggressive and demeaning angle is not so effective...) Do you just want to let off some steam, which you can't do in front of potential customers or investors? Or does this feel like fun? (How?)I'm truly puzzled.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 12:44:52 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 12, 2019, 11:46:50 amLet me guess... He is using this forum because it keeps popping-up in internet search results. If skeptics are uncontested, then general public may draw unfortunate conclusions. He has to defend product by all means. This is nothing new here, example:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/bullshit-texzon-wireless-power/

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 02:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 12, 2019, 11:23:52 amOversamplingBut, maybe,thisis more relevant.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 03:05:33 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 12, 2019, 12:44:52 pmAll posting here will do is make it worse. We are scambusters (aka "qualified personel" or real engineers). And Dave isn't the only Youtuber here should we choose to video debunk (which would get a ton of search hits). The only thing scams should do when they end up in this section is run and hide.Warning! Warning! Bullshit level exceeding 80%!*klaxon*

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 06:37:36 pm
content: After reading through this entire thread of word salad from 3DFS, all that comes to mind is Bea Arthur as the Roman unemployment clerk in History of the World Pt I when she distilled Comicus' profession (Stand Up Philosopher) into a somewhat more 'raw' descriptive term...-Pat

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 03:54:36 pm
content: "After reading through this entire thread of word salad"I've read some of it again for the giggles, I'm hungry for some more salad.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:04:40 pm
content: Unfortunately, I do not like salad, so I vote for locking this thread and banning the troll.Instead of helping others, users waste time and effort here.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on June 14, 2019, 04:04:40 pmNo. Truth shall be told so people who are not knowledgeable enough get chances to make their own decisions about this "product".

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:56:10 pm
content: People not knowledgeable enough will not likely make a decision based on this thread, just because it is full of this salad.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 07:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on June 14, 2019, 04:56:10 pmMaybe. Whatever. Please do not end this fun by banning him, ok?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 08:06:16 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 14, 2019, 03:54:36 pmSalad? Nah, his posts are a technobabble smoothie.Even AvE is easier to comprehend.

author: racemaniac
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 11:54:55 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on June 11, 2019, 08:04:40 pmOoh, finally one i can respond on XD. Sorry, but having studied numerical mathematics that handles subjects like this, it's not because your input data has a certain accuracy, that your result will have the same accuracy. How errors propagate through calculations is very interesting, you should read up on it.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 01:56:19 pm
content: After telling every EE on the planet that they don't understand electricity, 3DFS try plugging theirreal time battery chemistry modelinginstead, and that doesn't go well either.twitter.com/rshandross/status/1141669369531052033

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 02:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 20, 2019, 01:56:19 pmWow! They know so much that is hidden. They can't explain it, though, because... ...secrets.-Pat

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2019, 04:16:48 pm
content: This is probably just atwitter textthing rather than a bonkers claim, but I found it amusing.Someone asks:"I'm not a power guy, but think a100 mile high voltagepower transmission line has milliseconds of propagation delay."Seems a simple enough question, but 3DFS answer:"Altitude is irrelevant."

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 04:31:43 pm
content: 3DFS's entry to the May NATO EMP protection competition, if anyone's really bored. All the usual nonsense is there!1st mention is in Reply #12.http://aee-seva.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Gaffney-3DFS-NATO-Innovation-Hub-Challenge-Expanded-Abstract.pdf

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 08:51:41 pm
content: That's gonna be hilarious! Their shit's gonna get blown to bits if they do any heavy surge testing!

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 09:37:17 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on July 01, 2019, 08:51:41 pmThe competition is over.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2463483/#msg2463483They didn't win which is lucky, because the winner has to demonstrate it 'working', so it didn't get blown to bits.How did they manage to make the final 7, perhaps the NATO judges just had a strange sense of humour.While 3DFS have for years been claiming that every uA in the grid must be digitally measured, modeled and software controlled:Senate passes cybersecurity bill to decrease grid digitization, move toward manual controlThe Securing Energy Infrastructure Act (SEIA) establishes a two-year pilot program to identify new classes of security vulnerabilities and to research and test solutions, including "analog and nondigital control systems."https://www.utilitydive.com/news/senate-passes-cybersecurity-bill-to-decrease-grid-digitization-move-toward/557959/

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:55:35 am
content: These lot seem to have been quiet since the last flurry in this thread, I don't think they've mentioned the VQ2 since!What would happen if you actually tried to buy a VQ2.https://twitter.com/connor_daren/status/1153834825481981952They're now moving into rocket science and suggesting non-combustible rocket fuel.https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1156757447836651525https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1157649334994919425#Bonkers

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 11:00:38 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on August 09, 2019, 12:55:35 amHmm, does that mean they suggest software-defined fuel instead?

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 11:04:45 pm
content: ...aaaaaand he's back to add ......nothing whatsoever.To reiterate the question tweeted by Darren Connor in Australia that appears to have gone unanswered, what countries DO you currently sell in?-Pat

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 11:38:15 pm
content: Sorry for being late to the party, but what's so controversial about all this except the buzzword marketing?Storing 0.6 KJ for active PFC seems to fit in the box fine. Crowbarring a surge into a water cooled resistor so your MOVs only have to absorb a small amount of a surge doesn't really seem out of the realm of possibility either. Water can absorb a lot more energy than a MOV without breaking.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 12:09:04 am
content: Quote from: Marco on August 14, 2019, 11:38:15 pmPlease read the entire thread...then you'll understand the pure lunacy.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 12:12:24 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on August 14, 2019, 10:46:49 pmThe stench of your incompetance has made the engineering community vomit.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 06:28:31 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on August 14, 2019, 11:07:38 pmMr. Connor's solar inverter is 1ph.I'd still like to know how a solar inverter's output voltage and current can be out of phase.After our posts on AC power measurement starting:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2477325/#msg2477325your're still complaining about the 15 min. AC power measurement by LLNL.https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1161241721881223172https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1161254846382727168So how long should the LLNL's AC power measurement be? 6ns?

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 06:32:58 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on August 15, 2019, 06:28:31 amWait...WTF?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 07:05:52 am
content: Quote from: sibeen on August 15, 2019, 06:32:58 amWhich bit?From the end of Reply #98:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2464896/#msg2464896cd:"If a home has solar and an EV, the case becomes very clear though as it improves the output of the solar and charging times and rates of the ev charger"me:"You've mentioned the correction of the output power of solar and generators, for these devices does the VectorQ2 have to be connected backwards, think about it!"Instead of thinking about it he said that the power correction is bi-directional, it only corrects the 3ph balance and PFas seenby the supply side, some of their claims are based on it actually fixing load's PF.

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 03:27:38 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on August 15, 2019, 07:05:52 amErr the bit I posted where you asked how a solar inverter's output voltage and current can be out of phase. That bit.I do realise that the VectorQ is complete bullshit but combating it with crap as above isn't a great look.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 08:49:09 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on August 15, 2019, 10:14:07 amWe have over 51K members who know actual science over your crap which is BS even on paper let alone practice. You sound exactly like a conspiracy theorist free-energy nut. Believing that everyone is against you because "ooo big brother/big buisiness conspiracy" instead of the fact that you are simply WRONG!Selling BS to gullible people (aka a scam) is not something to boast. When your crap fails to surge protect properly because it is snake oil it could cause tremendous damage leading to a hefty lawsuit.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 09:13:03 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on August 15, 2019, 08:49:09 pmHe knows that very well, just can't admit in public for obvious reasons.QuoteRest assured - actual documentation and purchase contract of "product" (if any) most likely is bullet-proof from legal point of view. BTW product could be some rebranded OEM igbt phase balancer with self-made digital electricity nanosecond-level woo-woo software

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 11:33:54 pm
content: You guys are just being jealous. Apparently.Must be some kind of software-defined jealousy.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 11:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 15, 2019, 11:33:54 pmHow do you know? Before we draw premature conclusions, it must be measured using 24 bit error free data and calculated accordingly.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2019, 12:07:44 am
content: The effective number of jealousy bits.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2019, 12:14:09 am
content: Quote from: ogden on August 15, 2019, 09:13:03 pmDisclamer: This product is not gauranteed to stop all surges, save any money, or prevent all electrical disturbance. Quantum energy super linear graphine batteries not included. Products sold seperately. This print may require an optical magnification device to read.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2019, 12:19:51 am
content: Quote from: sibeen on August 15, 2019, 03:27:38 pm3DFS claim that power quality is very badat generationmany times, I haven't found a solar inverter one yet but this one hints at inverters being less than 60% efficient unlessfixed.https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1118687111237066752and this:"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam.""For renewables and energy storage, inverters replaced by SDE enabled inverters will result in anywhere from 20-40% more output."https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041"It is established science that the power factor, harmonics and phase balancing are the worst at generation."https://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=12204964&cid=56776034QuoteI think it really is useful for a high power 3ph user with constantly changing balance and PF loads, but not much else.I try to avoid claims more than about 3 months old because even 3DFS are allowed to change their mind, but I've just had a look at one of their white papers to see how they explain away it causing Asynchronous Motors to Operate Synchronously, - another one of my favorites!This white paper reviews how Software-Defined Electricity delivers digitally perfect power to every load in a power network at all times, preventing any fluctuation including transients from affecting load performanceIt's a shunt voltage regulator on a 3ph supply with complete surge protection.VI. Expected Results from Software-Defined Electricity™Load Performance and Work Output ImprovementExample 1: Reduced Data Packet Loss in TransmissionExample 2: Reduction of Power Supply TemperatureExample 3: Asynchronous Motors Operate SynchronouslyExample 4: Improving Audio Recordings/Live PerformancesExample 5: RF Signal Propagation ImprovementExample 6: Increase the Detectable Distance of RADARGenerator Performance and Output ImprovementsUPS, Battery Performance and Output ImprovementsPower Network StabilityAutomatic Impedance MatchingMaintaining Separation of Power Network from Data NetworkSustainable Surge ProtectionStacked Layers of Energy Savings1st Layer - Direct Savings from Loss Prevention2nd - Reduced Environmental Conditioning3rd - Optimized Work Output Per Period of Time4th - Expert System in the Power NetworkUtility Penalty Reduction/EliminationDemand ChargesPower Quality Related Utility ChargesNew Layer of DataError Free Digital DataNon-Intrusive Load MonitoringSeamless Platform Integration Via APIPredictive Analyticshttps://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2019, 01:24:23 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on August 16, 2019, 12:59:54 amNo, I think it's in a link on the other thread on here but I'm not going to search.You claim the LLNL's AC power measurement is inaccurate because it's measured over a 15 min. time interval.What AC power measurement time period would you recommend to give a more accurate result?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2019, 06:37:32 am
content: Haven't these threads run their course by now? Can we just lock the threads and ban this goober as is typically done with people pushing pseudoscience and other scams?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2019, 03:57:49 pm
content: Another round of merry-go-round.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2019, 04:17:36 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 16, 2019, 03:57:49 pmJump to earlier in the thread where we explained that "error free" is impossible and those sample rates are utterly rediculous.A loony never learns, it's been scientifically proven now. Maybe he needs a padded, soundproof room with the walls covered in real science to eventually reform him.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2019, 06:34:48 pm
content: QuotePMFJI... I think I see the communication problem here.The LLNL's measurement has to be an average and they presumably choose 15 min as a reasonable timescale for their purposes (which is to know the average). That's perfectly reasonable and appropriate.3DFS's requirements are very different in that they need to know what the instantaneous value is in order to correct it. Thus knowing that it needed to be adjusted 15 mins ago is pointless. That's also reasonable and appropriate (which is not saying anything about what it actually does or may be possible, etc).A way of looking at it is, as ever, using a car analogy: for fuel consumption you want an average over a journey or period of time (LLNL) but for controlling the injectors you need instantaneous numbers (3DFS).So ISTM the two of you are batting away assuming that the opponent is talking the same thing, but you're each actually on different playing fields.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 11:52:57 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on August 19, 2019, 11:37:34 amLOLThey're done by 3DFS. Only 3DFS would use a pixel aliasing effect on current wave forms as proof of "How phase balancing protects assets and infrastructure."QuoteThe VectorQ2 balances and PF corrects the incoming supply's current, the 'electricity' at the loads doesn't change.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on August 19, 2019, 12:10:13 pmNice try, but you're only saying what I've been saying for ages."The amount of power demanded by the load does not change."The voltage, current, and PF of the loads doesn't change, which means PSUsdon'trun cooler, and asynchronous motors certainlydon'tsuddenly become synchronous motors."This results in a zeroing of ground and neutral current."Only on the supply side of the VectorQ2.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:39:26 pm
content: How exactly?? How does phase current redistribution affect neutral to ground current imbalances??If there is a small but finite / significant impedance between the neutral and ground on the load side, how does one correct the neutral to ground imbalance??Or are you suggesting your magic device can override laws of physics and electronics and magically null the neutral to ground current??Quote from: cdoerfler onTodayat 10:10:13 pm

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on August 19, 2019, 12:39:26 pmThere's a diagram here of course, I've already asked why E and N are connected at one of the loads.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2465997/#msg2465997

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:47:16 pm
content: That is the explanation for current balancing in the three phases.. I get that.cdoerfler has mentioned "This results in a zeroing of ground and neutral current".Now, I could be mistaken in my understanding. I assumed he meant zeroing of any neutral-to-earth current.Unless of course, he meant zeroing any stray "phase to neutral / ground / earth" current.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:59:10 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on August 19, 2019, 01:47:16 pmKind of. "Neutral current" is correct term in case of any consumer - big or small. Mentioning ground/earth may lead to frustration because earth-related currents usually associates with faults, not phase imbalance.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 03:21:56 pm
content: Hence my confusion, The neutral current is simply the sum of the individual phase currents. (in a perfect system)We will usually have some leakage current and some neutral to earth potential, which are usually associated with a fault.Now, any amount of mathematics and shunt correction will not remove these "faults". Again, if my understanding is flawed or imcomplete, I stand to be corrected.Quote from: ogden onYesterdayat 11:59:10 pm

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 03:55:16 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on August 19, 2019, 03:21:56 pmThree phase system is very clever in a sense that "power delivered" versus "wires used" ratio is very good. Perfectly balanced three-phase system can live without neutral wire at all. That's why high voltage power grid lines have only three fat conductors, fourth conductor on top acts more like lightning rod rather than neutral wire. Three phase motor do not need neutral wire to operate - think about it. Phase imbalance creates neutral current that has nothing to do with neutral to earth potential which would be earthing fault.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2019, 12:50:22 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on August 19, 2019, 12:10:13 pmNope, the power dissipated over the neutral wire is the power not dissipated on the phase wires, should they have been perfectly balanced. There are not much losses left over to be concerned about.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 12:35:08 pm
content: Struggling to keep up with all the requests for information on their SDE technology, 3DFS show their 3 phase power analyzer, which is not all that portable.https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1174709460478103553

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 01:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on September 20, 2019, 12:35:08 pmCome on; don't sandwich another bout of disbelief in between that moment of pride.Seriously though -- where do they say what's inside that trailer? (How do you know it's their power analyzer?) The trailer might simply be chuck-full of "clean power", as stated on the outside, so the bigger the better.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 02:40:23 pm
content: "How do you know it's their power analyzer?"It says "Electrical Network Evaluation Unit." along the bottom, that's 3DFS speak for "A Power Meter".

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 04:29:07 pm
content: Holy shit!Is it full of tubes? Even that sounds like it would be smaller, unless they have a tube computer in there too (or an arc rectifier).Other wise it's probably full of rubbish like air, concrete, bricks, exc.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 10:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 23, 2019, 10:25:41 pmIs it CGI?I can see you've been having fun on twitter, using those 2 old pdfs and the vox.com article as data is terrible, they're full of errors and #bonkers claims.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 05:43:35 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 23, 2019, 10:58:09 pmWhat's really funny is a modern 3-phase power analyer can fit in your toolbox.And you show a damn trailer the size of a mini-camper. That is not progress, that is being stuck in the 50s.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 08:02:17 am
content: QuoteMight that be a display unit for exhibitions?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 09:27:31 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 24, 2019, 08:02:17 amI don't think they do exhibitions anymore, people must google before inviting them.Perhaps it's their new premises.After 7 years of saving the world with this transformative technology, it must be the least successful marketing campaign ever.No results found for "3dfs customer".No results found for "3dfs power customer".No results found for "3dfs power customers"

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 11:05:34 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on September 24, 2019, 09:27:31 am

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 11:06:01 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 24, 2019, 11:01:58 amFor a super serious person that has invented something the world never has seen before, you surely lack some skills...

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 11:19:19 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 24, 2019, 11:18:41 amOnce again you prove my point to perfection

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 01:32:31 pm
content: What "technology"? Google says you've delivered jack shit.Quote from: StillTrying on September 24, 2019, 09:27:31 am

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 07:34:06 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 24, 2019, 04:54:40 pmThe con artist says otherwise?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 08:05:41 pm
content: Groundhog day...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 09:01:47 pm
content: QuoteThe fact that we've debunked you thoroughly and repeatedly throughout this thread yet you still claim to sell this rubbish to people.PF correction is a real thing, yes, your outlandish claims, not so much.EDIT: Oh, and the fact that you keep saying you are better than everyone because you know some "fundamental truth". Just like the nutter who posted this threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/over-unity-it-runs-on-water-stanley-meyer/

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2019, 02:10:30 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 25, 2019, 01:29:38 amNot only have we debunked you if you read this whole thread Mr.Insane Psychologist who has no real engineering degree unlike a lot of people who have questioned you on this forum, but you have been debunked elsewhere on the internet with the same responses. (links have been posted here before)https://www.quora.com/How-feasible-is-the-software-defined-electricity-proposed-by-3DFShttps://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/You are like a broken record, the Mad Hatter, or more like mad not-actually-a-real-scientist.Just beating around the bush throwing evidence that's never any actual proof, then callinguscrazy like some child going "no, I'm not wrong!"Are the marketing team gonna punish you if you get exposed? Or, more likely, you really are completely delusional yourself.The real kickers are the reviews of your website.Here's an old one from 2011 that shows you to be directly associated witha free energy scam website! That's a nasty stain on your reputation.http://americantrollsociety.blogspot.com/2011/04/overunity-suppression-tactics.html"this website seems suspicious"http://www.scamaudit.com/domain/3dfs.com

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2019, 11:10:12 am
content: So show us some evidence or shut up and bugger off!

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2019, 11:32:13 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 25, 2019, 01:29:38 amBack in the real world, we can see there's claims you can longer make, and supporters you've lost, so debunked.Why do you keep trying to question our knowledge, nobody knows everything, so here's an example of yours.Automatic Impedance MatchingWithin the process of Real-Time synchronization is automatic impedance matching for every load. The impedance will be maintained under 1 milliohm at all time on the supply and load sides simultaneously.Your pdfs of official tests shouldn't contain such nonsense anywhere.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2019, 12:45:46 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 25, 2019, 11:46:57 amYou have shown tons of "evidence" already that we've proved scientifically to be false.We're trolling you becauve YOU are trolling like a whiney brat and not actually even attempting to defend your claims anymore, or is it simply because you know you can't?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2019, 02:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 25, 2019, 01:33:17 pmSomething tells me your marketing team are not smiling. Also "you haven't seen it" isexactlythe same speil free energy nuts use. In fact, that's what MariandJay said about that ZeroBreeze rubbish as well "you haven't tried it", when it can't possibly meet it's claims due to basic physics.You have thrown around a ton of claims, and the internet full of real engineers (unlike yourself) has proven them false.You want observation? Send EEVBlog one of your units for a teardown.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2019, 03:15:37 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 25, 2019, 02:20:52 pmHA, thats never gonna happen, that 3dfs guy got way too much chicken going on.Wonder what his excuse will be, "not possible to ship it downunder", "can't show our superior BS tech" etcBut he is sure to come up with an excuse

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 12:05:16 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 25, 2019, 10:38:57 amYou're *this* close to getting banned. Stop it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 12:14:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2019, 12:05:16 amCan we at least lock this stupid thread? It's been going in circles for months now, it's not adding anything IMHO.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 01:58:13 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 26, 2019, 12:14:59 amI don't get these bits, is someone somehow forcing you to click on it, there's many threads here I hate and think should be removed such as the Three Word Story, TEA, any with subjects of "Question" or "Help" I get around this awful problem by just never clicking on them.Of course it would be different if ppl were killing each other or it was spilling into other threads, but as long as it's on topic and in the right group I can't see the problem me-self. As someone else said it is or was educational, and quite fun at times.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 02:35:53 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on September 26, 2019, 01:58:13 amIt is extremely rare that I ever suggest that a thread be locked, but when it is circling around and around and around and going nowhere except swapping insults, some veiled and some not so much, what is the point really? I mean yeah it's not that big of a deal, I never suggested it was, but it's a bit pointless IMHO.I would care even less if I could put an unlimited number of threads on my ignore list but I seem to have hit that limit and every time I hit ignore on a thread it resurrects some other thread I have long ago ignored.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 03:18:33 am
content: This is the dodgy tech section, expect actual nutters to show up here.I mean, there's a recent thread here with a real free energy nut.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 04:18:57 am
content: I worry that if this thread is locked, or the 3dfs guy is banned, nobody will ever hear from them again and we'd lose out on some laughs.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 11:28:58 am
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 26, 2019, 11:25:15 amThat is just a load of codswallop!How can you get more computing power out of a processor by adding your own software to ANY other software developed for that processor?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 11:49:12 am
content: what software are you replacing?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 11:54:22 am
content: So this is software from a specific manufacturer?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 12:07:25 pm
content: So what does this software do?

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 12:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 26, 2019, 11:25:15 amI think one can start here. In my book, an order of magnitude is atenfold increase. Here the plural is used, so let's say at least 1.5 OoM (just to be kind).That is a 30-fold increase in "computing power" for a given processor.Sorry, but extraordinary statements require extraordinary evidence.Application specific computer languages are one dime a dozen.This might just be a communication and language problem.I would say cdoerfler is not the right guy to speak to EEs, or like minded persons, but he should be well aware of this by now.Words are important.If they have such a revolutionary technology, they should also have someone that understands and can explain it in a technical way.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 01:18:49 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 26, 2019, 01:17:45 pmWhat does the software that you are replacing do?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2019, 01:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: cdoerfler on September 26, 2019, 01:22:47 pmAnd there ends your trolling. You can't/won't answer simple questions.