How did they make wire conductors in the early years ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 03:20:12 am
content: I was looking at a timeline of EM discoveries and inventions. And I was wondering about how hard and expensive it would have been to make round, thin/long conductors/wires back then, and buy them. There's actually a book "The History of Electric Wires and Cables ". I guess they never made the documentary yet, but I'd watch.I can think of 20 questions, I've seen a lot of blacksmithing video's and history, but IDK if any long metal wire was in use for much anything, maybe on some early musical instruments? Or mechanisms ? Maybe Gold thread which was hammered and rolled. No one was making chain-link fence, or did some castle have such things ?If you only had a local blacksmith, but did have copper, how hard it is to go from ingot, to a single 10ft, 24AWG wire ?, or 100ft ?And when did they start making wires in a mechanized way in machines, and someone made sold it besides just in some big city at some University or something ?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 03:35:18 am
content: Wire was made and used way before electricity was discovered. It was used for fencing and other household needs. There are varying timelines for that, but I think drawing through dies in an industrial way was perfected in 1400s. And for small lengths it was used in BC times.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 03:36:50 am
content: Its like people someone stumble upon forums without knowing about this thing called internet search engines!https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=wire+drawing+history

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 03:49:00 am
content: Ok so people were drawing wires in the 1400's and making fences. I have a propane torch, 1 of these days I want to see how soft copper wire gets.I wonder when/how they 1st made flux filled solders ? I bet people were not afraid to try chewing on solder back then. I guess I better not try yet.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 03:55:47 am
content: Annealed copper is very soft, it can be easily drawn though a die in a cold state. But it work hardens like crazy, so you need to anneal it after every work cycle.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 10:59:51 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on February 08, 2022, 03:49:00 amgoogle patents should have some methodshttps://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/f5/90/60/40bb8e9bdbdfc2/US1724680.pdfhttps://patents.google.com/patent/US1724680

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2022, 12:12:26 am
content: Stuffing stuff into sausage goes back to antiquity...

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2022, 12:28:05 am
content: QuoteThe castles were too busy knitting the chain into armour rather than fencing

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2022, 03:00:52 am
content: Wire is very easy to draw -- given the right tools. Examples date back to antiquity, with wire being easy to form for jewelry, inlays, etc., as well as commercial or practical uses.I've even done it myself; twas a particularly boring summer (remember 2020?..), I decided to collect all my saved-up solder, clean it (flux), strain out the random bits of wire, SMT chips etc., and cast into bars. Then I hammered it round, and drew into wire.For drawing plate, I used what I have on hand -- a set of drills and an aluminum bar. A peculiar choice for die, but solder doesn't stick to aluminum and it's still harder than solder, so, sure, why not? I made holes ranging from about 1/4" down to, well I'd have done 1/16" if I had it but that drill broke a long time ago and I never replaced it. The holes are tapered by way of wallowing them out with the drill (makes an hourglass shaped cross section), and reaming with the tang of a file (which is... not very sharp -- a tapered square or hex shape -- more of a burnishing than a cutting process!). Eventually I got enough holes, close enough in size, that I was able to pass wire through the whole sequence. A little grease serves as lube (mandatory, the wire will tear without it) and a strong set of pliers serves for traction.Despite the simple means, the holes and thus wire end up quite smooth. The holes are reasonably round by way of rotational symmetry, which also smears out surface defects; likewise the wire passing through, might get hung up on surface defects (ring-shaped bumpiness?), but it's moving perpendicular to those so the same error is applied over the wire -- it ends up smooth.Getting started on the next hole down, is the main challenge; well, that and having enough strength to pull the stuff through, depending on how active you've been -- which, fortunately(??), was also something 2020 made me realize the importance of... The pinch at the end, from grabbing the wire, often has a small enough cross-section it can be twisted into the hole, or can be hammered down to a taper if that's not enough. Extra leverage may be needed to pull through the thickest sizes (~1/4"), which may also yet be lumpy from the casting/hammering; I just grabbed it from the side and pried against the plate, which mars the wire surface but it's got plenty of drawing left to do and smooths out by 1/8" or so.Consistency is key. You can weld solder wire together easily enough, but the joint will be a different alloy -- the random mix is probably close to Sn50, so is softer than the fresh Sn63 I have. Such joints tend to break when drawn down with the rest of the metal.The cross section also doesn't draw round as fast as you might think. You'll probably start with a somewhat lopsided or squarish cross section, and find that the corners smoosh down first, eventually leaving narrow patches of low material, being pushed in from the sides. It's also easy to hammer solder over itself to a similar end, leaving laminae that eventually comes loose on drawing. Finally, hard sites don't draw down with the solder, instead delaminating and tearing apart (even after straining, I ended up discovering a few small bits of copper/iron in this way).I ended up with a couple batches of around 6ft each, totaling, Idunno, half a pound or so? Welded together (somewhat crudely; I'm not going out of my way to draw down the whole assembled length and probably just tear it up even more!) it's stored on a spool and I've even made use of it from time to time (works fine as anything with paste flux).Like I said, it was a slow summer...For something like iron or copper, of course you'll need a hardened drawing plate for the former, and preferably for the latter as well; you'll also need to anneal from time to time (notice I didn't mention that for solder -- room temp is adequate to anneal that, as it happens -- one reason why leaded solder isn't prone to cracking, however lead-free you might need some time in the oven every couple of passes?). A hardened plate isn't even that hard to make; in the olden days, a tapered spade drill could be made in annealed carbon steel, then hardened. The holes can be further cleaned out with abrasive slurry and a stick, or leather cord, say. Or just by drilling with abrasive slurry in the first place -- it's extremely time-consuming, but hey, carved and faceted jewelry has been made this way for millennia!And yeah, iron wire has been in regular use for various purposes through the industrial revolution; it wasn't really a good engineering material until post Bessemer or so, for a couple reasons:1. Wrought iron has slag inclusions. Remember my comment about consistency and delamination? I can just imagine this stuff would be... challenging to draw out. And, I don't think there's a hot-drawing process, really, not without technical ceramics. (That said, I do wonder if a high-fired clay or mullite die would hold up to a useful number of miles of hot, scaly iron?)2. Sulfur and phosphorus impurities. These were problematic in early Bessemer steel, in terms of hot-shortness (difficult to forge) and cold tolerance (raised ductile-brittle transition temperature). Or, I forget what exactly phosphorus does here, maybe it's mostly just the effect of sulfur I'm thinking of. Or it's beneficial and that's the point, it's burned out preferentially. Oh, that's probably the trick, P neutralizes S to some extent? Not sure. It's been quite a while since I did much reading on metallurgy alas.Anyway, it's rather difficult to leach or burn out sulfur, it tends to stay in solution. So it varies with ore quality and processing, I think. As do the trace alloys. Which also tend to burn out before the iron does (reactive metals like Ti, V, Cr, Mn), so in addition to a very mild steel (no carbon) after blowing, it's, well,verymild, not much strength in it at all now, and those trace alloys have to be reintroduced. Mn and C being the easiest to add (speigeleisen).The main innovation of modern steelmaking is the basic oxygen process, keyword "basic": the hearth is lined with magnesia bricks, which combine with the sulfur, drawing it out. (Bessemer's invention used traditional clay-based (acidic, silica and alumina) refractories, which had no effect on sulfur content.)Still, it was good enough to build contemporary structures: suspension bridges with iron links and steel cables were now possible in the 1800s.Consequently, barbed wire, and telegraph cable, were produced industrially as well. Yes, telegraphs used iron quite often, at least as I understand it. Would've needed rather large conductors, but, well, if 18 gauge is cheap enough anyway, who cares, right? Copper took over as real electricity distribution began (not just piddly telegraph signals), along with the development of useful insulation as we know it (rubber, fabric, enamel, and extruded polymers when they arrived).Faraday's own experiments in magnetism, were done with -- oh I forget if it was iron or copper wire -- wrapped with thread or fabric, and carefully laid in layers spaced with fabric. Rough times they were, before anyone else needed insulated wiring!Quote from: themadhippy on February 09, 2022, 12:28:05 amAu contraire, chainmail is excellent protection for  fencing!Tim

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2022, 08:26:45 am
content: Yes, old phone lines for long distance have been hot dipped tin on copper coated steel for quite a while, as the cost saving even in the 1900's was significant, and the steel wire allowed longer lengths of wire to be strung between the supports. Even now the common way to bring phone service in is a copper coated steel wire, as that is a very strong wire, and also can span long distance. Only copper is the bundles for trunks, where there the strength is provided by the steel cable co extruded with the sheathing, so they can use copper instead.That steel wire is hard to cut, you need special cutters with hardened steel edges rated for it, your standard cheap side cutters or electricians pliers will dull the blade very quickly cutting it.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2022, 09:55:18 pm
content: an advanced jeweler will still use equipment like this to make wires to repair old custom necklaces etc. pretty sure it does not need to be square either, just an example.If you have a mandrill with many reductions then you do not need a great amount of force, just time.For soft materials, you can get hand held wire making pliers that basically compress a ball through a orifice to make wire (used in chemistry to make soft alkali wires etc)I would say the bigger 'breakthrough' for electrical wire is development of good varnish coatings that have high durability and temperature resistance.. this lets you get more out of your copper in a reliable way. (started with the 1900's chemical industry revolution). I imagine the wire is easy to make in comparison to reliable insulation. Silk, tar, paper, etc. IMO the first strong 'development' for power transmission was the invention of PILC (paper insulated lead cable), which is actually oil filled, that allowed for reliable high voltage cable runs.And I suspect a bronze casting of the roller mill that is hand finished would work and that tech would be available back in the bronze age, for a wealthy craftsman... probobly more like individual rollers not a big consolidated multi gauge thing. (at least for working silver, its softer then bronze). I wonder if you can make silver wire with granite rollers too... if you preheat the wire before roll milling you can probobly get away with quite a bit.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire#History

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 03:31:49 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on February 08, 2022, 03:49:00 amAt least not on raw lead during the early 1800's. According to the tour guides at the reconstructed Hudson's Bay trading post at Fort William in Thunder Bay, ON, rambunctious kids were given a lump of lead to chew on. They say it was wonderful how it would slow them down...

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 03:00:41 pm
content: Early electrical experimenter had to wrap bare wire in linen or silk by hand themselves as no calendaring services were available back then.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 04:20:12 pm
content: In the history of technology, the use of wire to wind electromagnets, etc., could not happen until wire was readily available.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:58:26 pm
content: Last time I saw a lead cable being properly terminated, as in wiping the lead, and using bitumen, as opposed to just using epoxy and shrink sleeving, was around 1998, when they were installing a new paper cable for a building. Since then all the joints are now made using Scotchcast kits, which are so much less training to use, as you do not have any hot metal or filler to apply, and less training needed to use them. Seen them used all the way from 400V 3 phase application, up to 132kV underground supply cables, where you still need a lot of skill to keep voltage gradients even, as otherwise your joint will explode soon after you apply power, could be anywhere from seconds to weeks, depending on just what you did wrong, and what small step you left out. That 132kV kit comes with a massive colour install booklet, on water resistant paper, with detailed instructions, and lots of pictures, in around 30 languages, for the installer to use.Of course, assumes installer can actually read.