safest mains plug - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 10:40:33 pm
content: What country has the safest mains plug and why.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:10:21 pm
content: This has previously been discussedad nauseamon the forum.A couple of threads:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/'britain-has-the-best-wall-sockets-on-earth'/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rs-components-raspberry-pi-order-triple-fail/msg133785/#msg133785

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:12:43 pm
content: Start here:http://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/Requirements for safety:* Adequate thickness metal pins for the current, and for robustness including an earth pin capable of carrying the full fault current.* Insulated bases on L and N pins so conductive objects inserted between the plug and the wall cannot make contact if the pins are in contact with the socket contact. A recessed socket is a possible alternative, but it must be impossible to mate the plug with any socket designed for insulated pins.* Effective cord grip that wont tend to split the plug under sideways strain.* Shuttered socket that cant be defeated with a single pointed object.* No exposed easy to damage spring contacts or pins on the socket.* Fitted to a flex cable rated for the full current capability of the upstream circuit protection* A strong standards organisation monitoring compliance. e.g. seehttp://www.bs1363.org.uk/Also the BS1363 plug has the advantage of being fused, so it can safely be used with thinner flex cables than the others.OTOH its physically bloody f---ing dangerous if you leave one on the floor and tread on it!

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:42:01 pm
content: The safest plug is the Schuko type F or type E used mainly in the central Europe. Also the niciest looking ones. :-PBut more interesting is to compare the high power three phase plugs. The ones used in europe are a lot better than anything I have seen anywhere else.But also, we have had a LOT of different interesting types of 3ph sockets here. They have really made interesting evolution. (oppose to the single phase, which are the same almost a century here...)PS: Fu*k shuttered sockets.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on November 17, 2015, 11:42:01 pmwell you can use the CEE,http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1ct_IHFXXXXc3XVXXq6xXFXXX1/Power-Plug-and-Socket-CEE-plug-and.jpg

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:56:45 pm
content: All I can say is it's definitely not the US plug - that thing is scary dangerous. At least we only have 120v mains...

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 12:02:56 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on November 17, 2015, 11:55:57 pmI know this one (Have one of those in my garage), this single phase is often used for powering camping equipment like trailers...

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 12:04:00 am
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on November 17, 2015, 11:56:45 pmhave you ever stepped on a UK plug?

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 12:05:31 am
content: I haven't.. but the UK plugs looks funny as hell. So does the ring wiring of sockets. (deliberately making wiring loops)//EDIT: A few weeks ago, I have seen some funny video rant about a shitty AU 3ph socket..Yea, that was it! That socket looks really stupid...

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 12:17:05 am
content: Shuttering the holes is a great idea, however almost never done properly. Most shuttered sockets have poorly designed shutters, preventing you pluging something in there without smashing it with a hammer to fit it in... The more chinese socket, the more shittier shutters!!!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 01:14:54 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on November 18, 2015, 12:17:05 amMeanwhile, in the UK, shuttered sockets are a requirement.. and work just fine.Perhaps it's the crappy implementation of the moving target of EU sockets which is the problem?

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 01:21:35 am
content: The problem is.... the EU itself (European Union) and all its political bullshit. Tons of idiotic requirements on everything. But I'd rather not open politics here, its an engineering forum and I get easily pissed when talking about EU and local political situation here.Same goes for the shutters in sockets. For like a century, we have had sockets without thos f...g shutters. Noone got hurt, no problems with anything. (An if you wnated to, there were a dedicated plastic dummy plug, which could not be defeated by kids) Now any cheap chinese crap extension cord has some crusty shutters that just don't work properly. They still can be poked by a single object if you try and you almost cannot plug a proper plug in there.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 01:23:00 am
content: So stop buying crap and complaining about it.It can be done right and we have done it right. For over 60 years.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 01:38:44 am
content: Thats the problem. The market here is so much fucked over, you mostly cannot buy a decent extension cord which is not a dangerous crap. No simple means for an average person to get a half decent extension cord. Most people are buying this stuff from multi-everything shop houses, where you can get them dirt cheap (but also dirt c**p). I have seen those cords dangerously explode (usualy shorts inside cables) a few times...The only solution how you can get a decent extension cord is to make your own. Separate plugs and sockets are still available and can be bought from reputable manufacturers, same applies for cables. You can buy a very decent ones, no ugly not-so-much flexible CYSY type cables.Shuttered wall sockets are no problems. Mostly because people use ABB brand here for new installations, they make a decent stuff. Also I think I haven't seen shuttered wall sockets so often in my area. Shutters there are mostly not needed, as most of them are safely plugged with a plug

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 02:13:48 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on November 18, 2015, 01:38:44 amThere are extension cords from big brand electrical fitting makers, like Schneider, which are fine. They aren't even that much more expensive than the garbage.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 02:25:52 am
content: You know what they say in the service trade: The safest mains plug is the one in your pocket!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 02:41:34 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 18, 2015, 02:25:52 amDon't the pins stick in you when you sit down?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 03:35:45 am
content: Better than some dangerous bastard plugging it back in while you are working on the equipment. . . . .

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 06:45:53 am
content: Hands down the best mains connectors in my opinion:http://www.neutrik.com/en/video/powercon/powercon/powercon-true1/250V, 20A, rated to make and break under load, IP65 when mated, and smaller than anything comparable on the market (not much bigger than an XLR connector). The receptacles aren't shuttered, but the contacts are well recessed. Cost is comparable to quality US mains connectors.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:01:39 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on November 18, 2015, 12:05:31 amWhy the palmface? It allows a higher current carrying capacity whilst using less copper.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 10:32:37 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 18, 2015, 01:23:00 amSo, how did he get the crap Chinese 3-phase plugs into Australia? The importer should have been fined.In the US and Australia, the customers can learn to start paying decent prices for quality products and support their own local manufacturing industries. If they won't do it, legislation can. A few deaths here and there seems to be a price we accept to get more stuff more cheap. Our governments are culpable for not policing the imports.I for one avoid buying anything "Made in China" but it is getting harder to do, especially with electrical goods because we have sold our souls to China. My furniture is all made in Australia - beds, loungeroom suite etc. I pay more but the quality is far superior and I am happy to pay more to support local industry.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 10:55:22 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on November 18, 2015, 09:01:39 amRight. The only downside of a ring main is it is a pain to test that the ring has been properly completed.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 11:11:41 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 18, 2015, 10:55:22 am... and that the ring can break due to a cable fault or loose connection, then you have sockets which still work but are supplied by a cable which is not adequately protected from overcurrent.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 11:48:49 am
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 18, 2015, 11:11:41 amWhilst that is a valid concern I have known a number of fittings overheat and melt, but I've never seen a problem that stemmed from a broken ring. It has always been due to poor contacts, either through the use of garbage like Clipsal, or contacts so dirty the wiping action can't sustain a good contact any more.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 11:56:29 am
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 18, 2015, 11:11:41 am

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 03:17:58 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on November 18, 2015, 11:11:41 amIt's unlikely a ring would break unless someone had been fiddling with the installation after which you'd have tested the installation and found any high resistance connections or found the broken ring. You'd also do well to end up with any cable being damaged due to the maximum area covered by a ring.Quote from: bookaboo on November 18, 2015, 11:56:29 amNo it's simply to reduce installation costs - less copper required. High integrity earthing that you mentioned is a different matter altogether.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 03:45:54 pm
content: The best thing about British shuttered sockets is that you needn't use a plug, just shove a screwdriver in the earth hole, poke in the live and neutral wires and when you remove the screwdriver then the shutter will hold the wires in place.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 04:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2015, 12:13:43 amI recall my first experiment with household AC was at around 11 years old. Thought I could just wind about 12 turns of wire over a nail and stick them into the wall outlet and have the most powerful electromagnet in the neighborhood. While it did smell very quickly from melting plastic wire insulation, luckly the upstream screw in fuse saved the day. I was able to locate the fuse panel and replace the fuse and none the wiser found out. Another life's lesson that forged my life.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 04:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 18, 2015, 01:14:54 amOne thing I noted in Saudi Arabia, which uses the shuttered UK socket (as well as other European sockets), is that the locals would open the ground hole with a screwdriver, exposing the two power sockets, and insert stripped wires. Releasing the ground would then clamp the stripped wires firmly (sarcasm) in place. Unfortunately, I lost my photograph of an exhaust fan in a hotel bathroom connected in that manner directly above the toilet.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 06:19:32 pm
content: The safest mains plug? The only one that includes a BS 1362 6kA breaking capacity fuse, clearly.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 06:37:13 pm
content: My brother in law thinks that 3 4 inch nails tapped onto the end of the cable is fine for pluging into the cee form socket on his portable gen set.The toughest plug I have come across is the rubber cee form, you con run over them with a fork truck and the survive.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 06:39:02 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on November 18, 2015, 04:41:36 pmDon't think you would like the illegal connections here then....... Bare wire, earth return and with insulation provided by convenient tree branches, wooden shack walls and all at knee height. Electrocution of people is so common it barely rates a footnote in the newspapers, and fires are very common from the wiring as well.http://mybroadband.co.za/news/energy/137616-how-izinyoka-steal-electricity-worth-billions-each-year-in-south-africa.html

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 07:06:40 pm
content: Holy Sh**!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 07:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 18, 2015, 10:32:37 amSlightly at a tangent, but I just bought some replacement T12 fluorescent tubes and all the ones I looked at were marked "made in USA".

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 06:10:18 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on November 18, 2015, 09:01:39 amSometimes the ends don't justify the means.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 06:48:44 am
content: In the UK, as there's no aluminum (domestic or light commercial) wiring or back-stab terminals, and BS1363 socket terminals invariably use effective screw clamping, the risk of a broken ring is extremely low.UK socket outlet ring circuits use 2.5 sq mm PVC covered solid copper cable which is good for about 20A with 40 deg C temperature rise, depending on the installation conditions. Even if overloaded to 32A, if properly installed, it is extremely unlikely to exceed 100 deg C. and will not be an immediate safety hazard.http://www.aeicables.co.uk/literature/CurrentRatings.pdfTherefore the UK ring system is fit for purpose, no matter what certain Yanks and Canuks may believe.Its a *LONG* time since I've looked at the UK wiring regs, but IIRC you can still run single circuits, wired with 2.5 sq mm cable to no more than two outlet positions per circuit with 16A circuit protection at the consumer unit, and sometimes that's a better option than a 32A ring

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 06:58:17 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 19, 2015, 06:48:44 amFrom an engineering point of view there is nothing wrong with ring mains. However, after installing a few during my student holidays I really questioned how much copper rings save. The notion is that a floor of a house will have sockets running largely around its periphery, back to the start point. However, when you take into account all the meandering around internal walls the benefit is less clear.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 08:03:18 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 19, 2015, 06:48:44 amYou can have a 20A radial in 2.5mm² if the installation method is correct and voltage drop calculates out OK.Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2015, 06:58:17 amThe difference is one piece of cable back from the last socket, where otherwise it'd stop if it were a radial wired in 4mm². Quite a large saving.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 08:31:38 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on November 19, 2015, 08:03:18 amDid you actually read what I wrote before replying?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 08:47:46 am
content: If its more than 50 sq m floor area, you'd need a 4mm radial. If its more than 75 sq m, you'd need two radials of at least 2.5 sq mm cable. A single ring is permitted up to 100 sq m floor area. Seehttps://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.3.1.htm(one edition out of date but still good enough for bar-room debate)

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 08:50:48 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2015, 08:31:38 amYes?

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 10:02:32 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 18, 2015, 11:48:49 amDo you even get Clipsal wiring accessories in the UK? I've never seen any at CEF, or Neweys etc

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 10:06:05 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on November 19, 2015, 10:02:32 amClipsal are now owned by Schneider. Do you see Schneider wiring accessories? I think since Schneider bought them they have been improving. Clipsal were an Australian company, considered by many to be a premium brand, but the cause of many a plug welded into a socket by molten plastic due to their poor contact design.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 12:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2015, 10:06:05 amWhat do you do with your connectors?Clipsal & Ring grip have been making plugs in Australia for over 50 years,& the incidence of such a happening if used in normal service is infinitesimally small .

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 12:15:53 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 19, 2015, 12:09:29 pmI don't have much experience with the Clipsal's Australian/Chinese sockets, but their BS1363 ones are awful. The contacts gradually deform and don't grip the pins properly. Then the plug of a high consumption appliance, like a washing machine, will melt into the socket.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 12:30:46 pm
content: I very much doubt if the BS1363 ones are made in Australia.They are probably made in the PRC,& "badge engineered" as Clipsals.As the rest of the PRC doesn't use them,& HK is a relatively small market,they may have "slipped through the cracks" between Chinese,British,& Australian regulators.Probably in earlier times Clipsal would have ensured they were to BS specs,but their Management are probably as venial as all the rest these days!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 12:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 19, 2015, 12:30:46 pmClipsal have their own plants in China. The BS1363 fittings they make are using in a number of countries. Basically countries which left the British Empire before BS1363 (e.g. india) use the old 5A and 15A round pin plugs. Countries which left afterwards (e.g. Malaysia and Singapore) use BS1363.At least some of the Clipsal stuff sold in Australia is made in their plants in China. Clipsal is a major brand in China, and I think they have something to do with China and Australia being the only two countries using those sloped pin plugs.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 02:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2015, 12:58:20 pmNo,it is a coincidence.Both countries were already using them,many decades ago,when Clipsal only made stuff in Australia,& all the Chinese factories were Government owned.One South American country,(can't remember which) uses similar plugs,& has for years,as has New Zealand.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 06:37:05 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 19, 2015, 06:48:44 amAluminium wiring is also very rare in Canada. It was only approved for a short while in the 70s and after that most people had it removed. I've encountered it twice I think and both times it was removed upon discovery: it's reputation is dismal combination of cheap, poor construction and thing-that-will-burn-your-house-down. It's getting popular for service entrance wire again since copper has gotten expensive, but this would be at minimum #2 (6.5mm diameter) on the smallest modern installation. That is to say, it's not what you run around the house.It's been a while, but 'round here the inspectors made you redo your wiring if you used those back-stab connections. Of course we have the advantage of Roberson screws which make using the back stab connections pointless.