Prototyping pick and place - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rachie5272
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 08:27:16 pm
content: I'm in a unique position with a client. I need to populate 10 or so boards, and need some better tools. It's not very demanding (maybe 100 components per board, no smaller than 0805), but I'd like to make my life easier. The client has agreed to buy tools for me, up to about $5k USD. My first thought was getting the boards assembled for me and pocket the rest of the money, but no, the $5k budget is strictly for tools. A use it or lose it sort of thing.I know I need a decent solder stencil holder. There seem to be dozens available, and I have no idea what to look for.I have a toaster oven reflow conversion (with PID controller and door-opening servo motor). Should I stick with it, or try infrared? I've seen some astonishingly cheap units.The real question is whether or not to try a desktop pick and place machine. It looks like they start at $3k, but I have no idea if they're any good.If not a machine, what are some good manual PnP tools? Definitely no squeeze type vacuum pumps; my hands hurt just thinking about them.Sorry for all the questions--I'm still new to short run manufacturing.Thanks!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 08:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: Rachie5272 on November 10, 2018, 08:27:16 pmThis is where you shoudl concentrate your spend on. Getting decent stencilling is 90% of the battle.I have one of these (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-Arrival-PUHUI-High-Precision-Printer-Manual-Stencil-Printer-machine-Silk-Printing-Machine/32568881109.html) which i use for prototypes and it works well. you just need to spend a bit of time getting it setup.. Dont' try to mess around with kapton plastic stencils, or unframed.. This is about the 'entry' level for what you would attempt.. the cheaper ones from here are rubbish.QuoteProbaby that will do the job. There is a reason why they are cheap.QuoteYup they do, but seriously a 3k machine is going to take you a lot of effort to get going and keep going. I'd probably look at trying to find a good manual placer machine.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nordson-Dima-Manual-Fineplacer-FP-500-SMT-SMD-Chip-Pick-Place-Excellent/273500599081?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3De7181d081e6b4b58b76f681652623f42%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D173592472970%26itm%3D273500599081&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A75947281-e52a-11e8-9af6-74dbd180ccdf%7Cparentrq%3Aff6538fb1660aaa335172a68fffe1469%7Ciid%3A1)This is a bit overpriced.. I have the FP600 and its awesome.

author: Gary.M
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 11:29:22 pm
content: Mrpackethead. That printer, I assume it takes the standard framed stencils you can get from pcb way etc?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2018, 02:41:37 am
content: yes, the framed stencils basically are a rectangular box section, and it simply clamps down it it. It takes a bit of effort to get every thing lined up ( X,Y,Z and theta ) . My only grumpble about it, is that they could have put a lot more mouting holes in it, so you have more spots to put support pins in. The 50mm spacing is a bit to big, 20mm or even 10mm would be better.A printer like the one above will let you print fine detail. BUT a lot of it comes down to operator skill in using the squeggee. Practice makes perfect.

author: khs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 01:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 11, 2018, 02:41:37 amHow much is a framed stencil?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 01:40:50 pm
content: Using PCBway to the UK as an example $15 (or $31 polished, nice if its fine pitch), and an extra $11 shipping on top of your existing shipping assuming you are ordering it with your PCBs

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 01:51:14 pm
content: Foot operated vacuum pickup and some way to hold tapes for easy access.Some decent tweezers and a good magnifier.Unless you're regularly doing lots of protos I don't see much value in most of the expensive "manual pick & place" tools out thereFor your budget I'd buy :A vacum tool with selection of stainless needlesSome tweezers.Leaded solderpaste (both screening and dispensing grades)A cheap toaster oven and controller.A good hot air tool for reworkSome way to mount and hold stencils - The Eurocircuits one is good but overpricedA Mantis Compact with 4x and 6x lenses, and a cheap toaster oven. used leaded paste for improved reflow-to-incinerate ratio - nobody needs to use leadfree on prototypes.If you have funds left over, get a used Herman Miller Aeron chair.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 02:21:10 pm
content: +1 for Mikes post. I would add:1) replace Mantis 6x lens with the 6x SLWD lens - it gives you 10cm more working area AND it raises the Mantis head by 10cm which makes it easier to work with it for long hours.2) Get a fume extractor with a decent filtering for the soldering oven. I am using a Pace Arm EVA 250 and I build a funnel (I am not sure if this is the right word for this) to allow to suck in all air which raises from the oven.It is one thing soldering one PCB or soldering 10 in a row. This fume is not healthy and you should have a filter with activated carbon for it.Btw: for handsoldering i can recommend a Weller WFE P fume extractor. The Pace mentioned above is way to loud for using it all the time. The Weller sucks in the raising fume directly at the soldering tip. See pic attached, the suction tip mounted to my JBC soldering iron.It is then being filtered in the vacuum device itself. I am sooo happy I am using this, every time I am cleaning the pre (coarse) filter. You will not believe how much stuff otherwise would be in the air and breathed in.

author: Selectech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 11:28:40 pm
content: I have one of these to complement my small Neoden p&p machine. I got it with the foot switch option.I mostly do 0603, 0805, SOT-23 and SOIC, but works ok for QFNs & TQFP100.https://www.abacom-tech.com/shop/manual-smt-pick-and-place-machine-ezpick/

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2018, 12:36:06 am
content: EkkQuote from: Selectech on November 12, 2018, 11:28:40 pmEkk. I bought one of those a long time ago and really it was the biggest pile of junk, the arm construction is just flunky.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2018, 12:31:37 am
content: The primary advantage of a manual pick and place, providing its nice and stable, is that picking and placing vertically means you can get parts directly out of tapes, which can be fiddly to impossible to do with tweezers sometimes. Plus how often when you grab things with tweezers do they turn upside down in your grip or simply ping across the room?Our (rather old and not often used) manual pick and place even has 20 pneumatic feeders that take 70mm mini reels (not something you see these days). Like several others there's a rolling platform I think you are supposed to rest your arm on, the vacuum is triggered by an array of micro switches linked to the vertical travel of the head. Most of the time this makes way more sense than a foot switch, no coordination required.As others mention, they all cost far too much although some of them do have some clever features (well Fritsch and LKPF do).

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2018, 12:49:18 am
content: You might also want to firm up your relationship with the client. They're either paying you to achieve to an outcome (what you want) or they're paying you for specific times, ways, places of working, and dictating the budget between various categories of spend (most/all of which shouldn't be their business).This job is worth $10K to me vs this job is worth $5K plus up to $5K in tools that you get to keep anyway is a distinction without a difference in a proper arms-length contracting relationship, IMO.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2018, 04:20:00 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on November 14, 2018, 12:31:37 amYup.. even a 0805 resistor can just be a nightmare to get out of tape that is sitting flat on the tape. having something with a vacumn is perfect for for that. I've not been to any big PNP lines that don't have some form of manual pickup tools.. Its just too convient. I'm acutally thinking of trying to build an arm similar to my DIMA FP-600 to go over a conyeyor table, on my line, so those oddball parts that are just too hard to do on the machine, ( or you only have 5 to place ) can be done without moving the board off the line.Our (rather old and not often used) manual pick and place even has 20 pneumatic feeders that take 70mm mini reels (not something you see these days). Like several others there's a rolling platform I think you are supposed to rest your arm on, the vacuum is triggered by an array of micro switches linked to the vertical travel of the head. Most of the time this makes way more sense than a foot switch, no coordination required.As others mention, they all cost far too much although some of them do have some clever features (well Fritsch and LKPF do).

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2018, 05:43:42 am
content: Placing 10 boards with 100 components per board will be DRAMATICALLY slower with a pick-and-place machine than doing it by hand. So much slower that it isn't even a comparison - unless we're talking only 2 or 3 unique part numbers per board, but I am guessing that's not the case.I echo what others said... you don't even really need a reflow controller, just a toaster oven with quartz elements top and bottom and a convection fan will be fine. Good solder paste, a big, clean and well lit desk will help tremendously. A good magnifying setup will be a godsend. A vacuum pen will be very helpful. Spend the rest of the money on supplies like 99.9% IPA, swabs, tweezers and all the other little things that will help you.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2018, 06:57:03 am
content: Some useful tips in this vid I did a while agohttps://youtu.be/pdGSFc7VjBE

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2018, 07:22:38 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on November 15, 2018, 05:43:42 amThis is not my experience. I regulary run 2 or 3 panels of a product then swap to something else. The most products i've done in a single day was 6 differnet items. Typical componet count would be around 150, uniquess 50-70. I can do this becuase i have 200 slots of parts set up all the time, and a system that creates PNP jobs knowing where parts are located.. It did take a LOT of effort to get to this point though.I echo what others said... you don't even really need a reflow controller, just a toaster oven with quartz elements top and bottom and a convection fan will be fine. Good solder paste, a big, clean and well lit desk will help tremendously. A good magnifying setup will be a godsend. A vacuum pen will be very helpful. Spend the rest of the money on supplies like 99.9% IPA, swabs, tweezers and all the other little things that will help you.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 08:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 15, 2018, 07:22:38 amYes, I agree. And, I do not have a "standard setup" on my machine. I optimize feeder placement for each job.I have run as few as 2 boards (not panels) for a specific customer, although that board had a fair number of parts.That is pretty rare, however. But, I usually run anywhere from 15 to 50 boards of one type before changeover.The FIRST TIME setup for a new (or revised) board can be a big deal. I have to decide what feeders to put where, go from CAD placement file to the format the machine wants, deal with issues where I forget that 16 mm feeders cannot occupy adjacent slots, proper part rotation, what nozzle to use for each part, and so on. Then, make sure the machine picks up the fiducial locations reliably.But, once all this has been worked out, I can file the feeder setup and placement files, and run the same board again with a LOT LESS effort.Jon

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 09:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on November 16, 2018, 08:31:50 pmMy trade off is not swapping feeders around for specific jobs. I guess i could possibly increase speed a little bit, but for short runs the placement time gained would be much much less than effort required to optimise feeders. That being said, i have moved my most common parts to the middle slots of the pnp so they are closest to the camera.. ( such as 100nF/0603, 1nF/0603 ). Unfortuantly on my machine its not possible to swap feeders out while its running so, this becomes the biggest pain item.. When you run out on a reel. I have enough feeders, and will have a replacement reel ready to go. ( my run sheets will tell me which feeders will run out during the job ).QuoteThat is the big difference. I'm not Contract manufacturing, so i can highly optimise for my own products.. CM comes with a whole lot of extra complications for both the customer and the CM. Which is why for me at least, not using CM is the right thing to do.QuoteYeah, if you are starting from scratch, it sure can. Theres quite a bit to do, if you have to set everything up.QuoteOn the yamaha system, it will do feeder optimization for you, if you really want.. It will look at the build, and then tell you were to put the feeders. Becaue i dont' want to move everything, i turn off this optimzation..Quotethe effort i put into dealing to my part library, part inventory, and part locations, and scripting that so, its all end to end was big. But its now paid off.. My process is this.(1) Create custom Bill of materials and PNP data files from Altium..(2) Upload files to 'fab' ( fab is our server in AWS, that has the database and engines )(3) Fab does an inventory report, tells you what stock is on hand, what needs ordering, whats on the machines, what will need loading on the machines. When you have all the materials on the machines, ( in altium, i have an additional feild that lets me tell the the sytem how i intend to place the part.. If its hand placed, then it won't get included ), you can then proceed and create a VIOS machine file. .The vios file is 'uploaded' to the PNP machines.. ( or you can do it manually and copy the file over ).. These are pre-network machines, and i have a serial-ethernet port on them, but its sometimes easier to just load a file.. ( i replaced the floppy disk drives with USB-FDD emulators ).(4) you need to do a bit of work on the pnp's them selves for the import, I have not yet full scripted all that, it takes about 2-3 minutes.Since i run across two machines, the scripts also deal to splitting the parts between the machines.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 09:20:00 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 15, 2018, 07:22:38 amThat's great. But irrelevant to the OP.You said you spent a LOT of time/effort to get to a place where you can run just a few of something. This guy does not have a PnP at all, so he will have to not only obtain one, he will need to spent that same time/effort you did to get to your position - which can only work if you have parts already loaded in feeders and a process in place for fast turnover.I would bet my life savings on nobody in the world being able to set up any PnP with 100 placements per board and do it faster than I can do it by hand. The only way it could possibly work is if most of the work (setting up the feeders and doing the programming of it) is done beforehand, or if there are literally 1 or 2 unique components per board.1,000 placements across 10 boards as a one-off run is NOT a job for PnP.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 11:05:51 pm
content: I think you would lose that bet. More lines to a BOM may well increase the time to load feeders, but it also increases the amount of time you need to spend setting out your parts for manual placement. For manually building a single board, you can just go through your kitting box doing one part number at a time, for 10 you need another plan, so that time advantage is gone. I build boards like that day in day out, I don't have the feeder count of mrpackethead so sadly I frequently kit the machine purely for the job in question. It is categorically worth doing even for quite small jobs, fast, accurate & without errors.The machine doesn't need to scan a barely legible silkscreen or diagram looking for where the hell R67 goes, it just gets on a places it. In actual fact I think you have your logic backwards, its when there are only very few part numbers to fit that it swings more in manual placements favour. The effort mrpackethead has gone to is unique to his case, other people might have a simpler system, or have those tools baked into the machine software already.No for the OP sure, probably not worth getting one, indeed without knowing how much of this they do, beyond saying get some nice toys that make your life easier I wouldn't like to recommend anything because I don't know what they have or how much space or use they would have for it after. Mikes list seems sensible enough to me but to be honest you can do a perfectly good job inspecting assembled boards with a deskmount magnifying lamp.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 11:55:48 pm
content: I don't have a PnP machine and decided not to buy based mostly on feedback from this forum.But if I were OP, I would definitely get $5K for the machine. Then I would add more of my own money and buy a good machine. It's like getting the machine with $5K discount, and being paid for all the time you spend to set it up. Looks like no brainer to me.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2018, 12:09:58 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 16, 2018, 09:11:43 pmWow, that is quite a limitation! I can pull a feeder any time, just press stop, open the safety cover and pull it out. I pull the feeders out for many jam issues, as most are easier to fix with the feeder on the maintenance stand than when packed in the machine.Or, do you mean as the machine is actually in progress? Yes, I think very few machines actually allow that. You could get your hand CRUSHED!I'm not Contract manufacturing, so i can highly optimise for my own products.. CM comes with a whole lot of extra complications for both the customer and the CM. Which is why for me at least, not using CM is the right thing to do.I am not contract manufacturing, either. I have a line of about 15 boards I make as an OEM.QuoteMy machine will do one simple optimization, it will pick up multiple parts on the 3 nozzles, if they are in order on the build list. This requires them to all be different sizes, as that is how I have the nozzles set up.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2018, 12:15:20 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on November 18, 2018, 11:55:48 pmWell, it depends on your volume. My business is a part time/weekend job. I sell several hundred boards/year, and CANNOT imagine doing this volume by hand -- which I did 11 years ago and earlier. It was a nightmare to stuff those boards by hand. I went with a used Philips P&P machine, and it has been a godsend. I have had some issues with it, as it is now about 23 years old, but if it took me half an hour to make one board by hand, and 2 minutes to do it on the machine, then I have saved something crazy like 1000 hours of labor.Jon

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2018, 12:17:01 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on November 19, 2018, 12:09:58 amThe high end machines will let you disable a feeder, in a particular bank and replace the feeders for truely non stop operation. And yes, i can stop the machine and replace a feeder. trying to do it with the head flying around.. meh that might be a bit scary.QuoteMy yv100's have 8 nozzles, and they will fill them all up as best they can. The nozzles are spaced at the same increments as the feeders, so it is possible for it to do eight component picks at the same time, though it will only place them one at time. But it has some alogrithms to reduce the total travel distance.Jon

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2018, 12:55:23 am
content: Lots of machines let you remove a feeder while the machine is running although it is probably much easier/safer when they are at least a bit smart so the machine knows you have done it. On my Essemtec the feeders slide out so there is no risk to me, I guess potentially if you timed it really badly you could pull a feeder while the machine was picking from it which might not be great. On most platforms however I think hotswappable feeders have controls on them, including ones that are effectively eject buttons so it knows you want to remove them. Note however that my feeders are not Essemtecs latest shiniest ones and have a design that dates back at least machine generations.Personally I only pull feeders when the machine isn't running a board, however because they are smart I can remove, reload, put somewhere else, or even put something else in it at any point during the program running should I so choose.

author: alanambrose
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 09:18:02 pm
content: >>> improved reflow-to-incinerate ratiov funny Mike