History and current use of word "Tension" on meters? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 01:28:09 pm
content: I have a few raw "D'arsonval" movement (analog) panel meters that I got at an estate sale of a silent key and two are labeled "Tension" - I sort of have a vague understanding that means voltage in some contexts, but I'm not at all sure about that. Can anybody fill me in? I kind of like it - at least its unusual. They are both Simpson panel meters, old but in fairly decent condition. One is center zero so I think I am going to try to build an impedance bridge out of it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 01:43:30 pm
content: Tension is just another word for voltage, or more precisely potential difference. It's fallen out of use in the English speaking world, but I believe it's still very common in other languages.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 02:19:25 pm
content: Resistance is measured in ohms.Current is measured in amperes.Tension is measured in volts.Perhaps the english language is going for -age on everything?Ohmage is measured in ohms.Ampage is measured in amperes.Voltage is measured in volts.Inchage, feetage, mileage (oops) ...

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 02:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 16, 2017, 01:43:30 pmIn Danish it is "spænding" which means tension.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 02:34:31 pm
content: And in Swedish: spänning (also a direct translation of tension).

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 02:35:32 pm
content: Same in DutchWeerstandis measured in Ohms, and literally translates to resistanceStroomis measured in Amps, but literally translates to flow, which is similarly enough to currentSpanningis measured in Volts, and literally translates tension

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 02:37:29 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 16, 2017, 02:22:20 pmIn portuguese it is the same: the potential difference is called "tensão". In fact, in portuguese the term "voltagem"(voltage) does not formally exist, just like "amperagem" (amperage) - although these terms are wildly popular.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 02:44:44 pm
content: I move we stop using "voltage" in English also. Always found Voltage-Volt a ugly pair next to the Current-Amp and Resistance-Ohm, as it mixes up dimensions and unitsOtherwise we may as well start talking about poundage and mileage instead of weight and distance (hmm, I guess we should stop using mileage too)Edit: reading this back, I suddenly realize mileage is not even used for distance, but for fuel economy. So it does not even use the -age suffix properly. It should be milespergallonage.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 02:55:16 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on December 16, 2017, 02:44:44 pm"Meterage": centimeterage, kilometerage, megameterage, oh the possibilities in SI ...

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 03:07:24 pm
content: ...no!Even when result is in microvolts, it is still the voltage.So even then the result is in centimeter, it is still "meterage"See why we should not mix up the dimension with the unit. The scalar does not apply to the dimension. Only to the unit.So this is better:Even when result is in microvolts, it is still tenson.So even then the result is in centimeter, it is still length(not that I actually think we are seriously going to be able to bring back tension)

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 03:49:35 pm
content: What? You mean 'high tension lines' doesn't mean they are tightly strung?That's the only place I know that it's still commonly used.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 03:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on December 16, 2017, 03:07:24 pmSure, but we are dealing with a tradition that also didn't balk at stacking prefixes: millimillifarad.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:04:30 pm
content: "Tension" seems to have been the original functionally-descriptive name."Volt" was a person.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Volta

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 16, 2017, 03:53:55 pmOr using a prefix for the base unit: kilogram.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:11:50 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 16, 2017, 03:53:55 pm... and also written as MMF (megamegafarads).

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:28:31 pm
content: When "mmf" was a standard abbreviation, it actually meant "pF" or "mickey-mikes" for typewriters than could not write " ??F ", as this reply form.It could be worse: accountants write "thousand" as "M", not "k", following the Roman numeral and I have seen that usage on antique test equipment for "k".

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on December 16, 2017, 02:44:44 pmActually, mileage does generally mean miles travelled, for example "a high mileage car" is a car with a lot of miles on the clock.And poundage is definitely a word in the English language, and it means what you think it means.Quote from: glarsson on December 16, 2017, 02:19:25 pmAlmost. It's amperage in fact.But ohmage doesn't exist.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 16, 2017, 05:28:31 pmI hope it didn't, because that would be truly weird

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 16, 2017, 05:04:30 pmIf I recall correct, that is not an accident, but the a purposeful standard for SI naming.Apart from a few very early and basic ones (liter, gram) almost all units are named after persons (and thus written with a capital) and all functions/dimensions/physical quantities are not named after persons, and not written with a capital.

author: Damianos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 06:08:57 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 16, 2017, 05:04:30 pmThis ^ ^ ^ ^Voltage is a slang word, such as amperage and many others (some already mentioned).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 06:14:08 pm
content: It comes from french, and people not speaking english well (or ignorant) use it instead of voltage. Also see: programmation.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 06:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: Damianos on December 16, 2017, 06:08:57 pmLooking at the etymology I can't find anything about the term "voltage" being slang.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 06:58:39 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 16, 2017, 05:37:33 pmIt does now. I just invented it and it should have equal rights.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 07:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 16, 2017, 05:37:33 pmIt took Google 500 milliseconds to find "About 84,200 results" just on the interweb.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 07:10:41 pm
content: I'll pay ohmage to that.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 07:12:38 pm
content: At least in the UK Tension was used to describe high voltages when we had them in valve or CRT equipment.HT(High Tension) would be the 100's of volts typically used by valve stages, whileEHT(Extra High Tension) would be for the >1kV's like used for the focus or the 20-30+ kV used as final anode on a colour CRT.LT didn't really exist as a term, it was just "low voltage" and still is, but nowadays much much lower than ever before.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 08:27:35 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 16, 2017, 07:02:36 pmWho knew so many people could be wrong?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 08:37:11 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 16, 2017, 08:27:35 pm

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 10:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on December 16, 2017, 07:12:38 pmI'll get my fromage.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 10:52:13 pm
content: That is fascinating. Nothing to do with the UK of course so I don't know why you quoted me.In particular take a look at Euro service manuals from the 70's-80's - from Philips for example. HT was labelled as such, and EHT most definitely with warning signs.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 10:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on December 16, 2017, 10:52:13 pmAbout 45% of English words have French origin. The French say it all the time, but nobody cares.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 05:23:40 pm
content: Interesting contrast to the Chinese term, which translates directly as "(electron) pressure". Pushing instead of pulling.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 08:03:02 pm
content: While I do not know for sure, my build in need for order would prefer to believe that like in the other languages, English also used to use tension (or even pressure, like the Chinese apparently) rather then the bastard 'unit'age. I dislike the growing use of amperage too.I wonder what people like Edison, Bell, Westinghouse (US) or Faraday, Maxell (UK) used. Tesla would not count, as he was foreign.Anyone knows where we can view documents from these people?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 08:05:29 pm
content: Quote from: cybermaus on December 17, 2017, 08:03:02 pmWhy does it matter what they used? Times have changed, as have words. It's like asking Ford about air bags.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 09:28:11 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 17, 2017, 08:05:29 pmLike it or not, language is a living, evolving entity. Grade school teachers not withstanding. Oh how they abhorred any word that hadn't been in the dictionary for at least 100 years. Same with grammatical constructions. In grade school the dictionary was some kind of gold standard and it's as if the teachers didn't understand that the dictionary people document usage, not dictate it. Standards are useful so that we don't suffer another Tower of Babble but the language will evolve.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 09:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 16, 2017, 10:55:48 pmThat's because so few of us speak French well enough to understand them.The words may be French but the language is Germanic.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 09:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 17, 2017, 09:35:17 pm*Gallic Shrug*

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 10:19:56 pm
content: Yes, "mf" used to mean microfarad and "mmf" meant micro-micro-farad back in the day. I have seen paper capacitors with "mf" and mica capacitors with "mmf" that are not quite so old as I.Does anyone know how to enter lower-case Greek mu on this form? I tried copy/paste from Word and it came out "?".

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 10:33:21 pm
content: Back to the subject:If I remember correctly tension was sometimes used to indicate taut band meter movement; an upgrade from the standard hairspring method most often used.

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 12:19:16 am
content: Yes, "tension" (or more precisely "electric tension") is French for voltage.Jacques-Arsène d'Arsonval was French.In Canadian French, we usually say "voltage", instead of "tension électrique".

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 12:34:39 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 17, 2017, 10:19:56 pmOn Windows, use the Character Map. µ is one of the few special characters that survive unchanged here.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 12:36:38 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 16, 2017, 05:38:52 pmWeird or not, it actually was used.Rather than being a prefix as we know it, it was actually an acronym, for the term "micro-microfarad".As, at that time, Farads & Millifarads were not preferred terminology by capacitor manufacturers, it wasn't really confusing.Nanofarad was pretty much unknown, with values lower than one microfarad being called out as decimal parts of a microfarad.Interestingly, many old hand drafted schematics have " micro microfarad" shown with the correct "mu" symbol, but still doubled up.Some caps said "MFD" for "microfarad", but many used, as they still do "uF".As to the term "High Tension"( or normally "HT"), this was widely used back in the valve/tube days for whatothers called "B+" or "Ebb".In the case of transmitters, it was really "High Tension", being commonly around 10kV or more.With CRT TV receivers, the tube voltage was commonly called "Extra High Tension"(EHT).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 12:42:46 am
content: I also think the abbreviation was usually in uppercase, so that MF for microfarad and MMF for micro-microfarad.Things were confusing back then because "M" was also a common prefix for thousand and "MM" a prefix for million. So you had to know which was which from the context.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 01:41:22 am
content: Quote from: glarsson on December 16, 2017, 05:11:50 pmI think we should introduce the MmF (or MmFD) as the unit of measurement for supercaps: the megamicrofarad!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 01:43:45 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on December 16, 2017, 07:12:38 pmI almost agree.As a youngster I well remember looking at early portable battery powered valve radios that of course required heater and plate voltages, some as little as 50V. Batteries for them were labeled as HT batteries and IIRC were 45V.If we look at CRO's for example there's a good # of voltage rails present and we usually lump any under 50V into a LV group. HT for CRO's is 100-300V and used in the CRT output stages to drive electrostatic deflection of the X and Y plates. EHT as you say is for the CRT elements, cathode, screen and grids and is always negative and used to propagate the electron beam and create focus and brightness control.The CRT anode on the other hand need be thought of differently, low BW scopes have no post deflection acceleration (PDA) and the anode potential in these is just 0V.Higher BW CRO's must use a highly positive PDA and while it's derived from the EHT supply should not be considered as just EHT, it is PDA and at voltage levels in another league to EHT. Low level PDA might be +5KV and in the 8-15 KV range is the most common. Only a few CRO's use more than 15 KV but colour TV's push towards 30KV.Semantics you may say but to those reading it's important to define each range/group of voltages even though each group can still be broken down further.Heater, digital, reference and so on.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 05:00:05 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 17, 2017, 10:19:56 pmYou mean like this guy?QuoteWell, there's your problem...Microsoft Word is not an input device.In this case, you're looking for a character that happens to be a part of the goodol' schoolASCIIcharacter set, so it makes it super easy. Even on your poor Windows device, you can probably still just hit-230to get a?character. That means holdand then press2 - 3 - 0on the numeric keypad... Just like 30 years ago.... It should still usually just work...Young'ns...

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 05:13:05 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 18, 2017, 01:41:22 amWhy stop there? We can always use a Gigapico farad

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 05:14:01 am
content: Quote from: drussell on December 18, 2017, 05:00:05 amIf I want a ? character it is much easier just to press ? (lower right, press shift with the / character on a US keyboard)

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 05:26:12 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 18, 2017, 05:14:01 am(Left) ALT 230 will give you aµ

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 07:07:06 am
content: Quote from: drussell on December 18, 2017, 05:00:05 amGot nothing to do with age. Plenty of us computer veterans also just expect things to work.There’s nothing wrong with using Word as a source of text. It SHOULD work, and the fact that it doesn’t has solely to do with the stupid, 20th century configuration this forum uses.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 08:21:41 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 17, 2017, 10:19:56 pmFascinating

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 09:39:36 am
content: I still refer to a car's HT coil and HT leads, though the youth of today say ignition coil and ignition leads.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 10:09:20 am
content: Quote from: Delta on December 18, 2017, 09:39:36 amIgnition coil matches what we use in Danish: "tændspole"

author: Calambres
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 12:05:22 pm
content: Tension is the correct word in spanish too... more precisely "tensión", with an accent over the "o" in case your codepage cannot represent it correctly. Also used as "voltaje" (yes, with "j")

author: Damianos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 16, 2017, 06:14:30 pmIt seems that my statement is a little or entirely wrong! It has to do with a combination of English, French and ancient Latin, but it's a little too late for me to begin learning languages ??in depth and technology history.