Trotec EC060V -  Shutter does not operate - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2021, 08:33:03 pm
content: Hi,A few weeks ago I´ve bought a used thermal camera from trotec, model EC060V.It seems to work, but one thing is very irritating, couldn´t describe it better:It seems, the cam display is in "persistence mode", parts of the former object you´ve examined will be "stored" and overlayed with the actual viewing...In general, the handlig of the cam functions is complicated to me - So is it a "mode" which can be deactivated ?Or is this simply a malfunction ??(picture of the cam will be uploaded in the next days)MartinEDIT : Title changed

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2021, 11:55:21 pm
content: Is the 'persistence' also inverted ? That will be the calibration flag is stuck open.If you hold your hand over the lens it should be fine for about a minute until the next 'calibration'. You would expect to hear a click as the flag gets driven over.Bill

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2021, 09:38:57 am
content: I carried out a teardown of the SATIR minIR80 some time ago. It is basically the same as your Trotec unit in terms of hardware.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/thermal-camera-_teardown_-the-satir-minir80-by-fraser/You can unscrew the lens completely to view the FFC shutter operation. As Bill_W states, this sounds like a problem with the FFC shutter either mechanically sticking open during the FFC event, or an issue with its driver electronics preventing it operating. If the FFC shutter remains open during an FFC event, the scene that the camera is viewing gets used to create the flat field image and the scene is likely anything but thermally Fiat ! The temperature measurement accuracy will also likely suffer as a result of such a fault.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2021, 08:38:20 pm
content: Hi Guys,Thanks for your posts, a few minutes ago I´ve tested it again, in the Livingroom.Holding the cam in direction to the lamps on the ceiling, focussing it clear and sharp...looks good.After a while, maybe it´s the minute, it stucks shortly (refresh? Can´t hear a sound), then you see what´s actual on the screen plus again the lamp but somekind of inverted.And it stays, even when you turning to something else in the room.After a while, maybe again the minute (must measure it), it vanish.Hopefully it´s something which can be fixed...Martin

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2021, 08:54:26 pm
content: Those are the symptoms of a non functional or intermittent Flat Field Correction shutter.You will need to investigate whether the shutter is jammed against its fully retracted end stop or some other mechanical hindrance has occurred. If you hear even the slightest click from the cameras lens area when it is trying to operate the FFC shutter, you will know that the solenoid drive is still operating. I would expect a sticky FFC shutter myself. You will need to dismantle the camera to inspect the very thin shutter flag and its drive system. See my teardown of the SATIR version for details.FLIR cover the use of the FFC shutter here……https://www.flir.co.uk/support-center/oem/what-calibration-terms-are-applied-in-the-camera-there-is-the-ffc-and-also-the-gain-calibration.-are-there-others-can-i-do-my-own-calibration/Fraser

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2021, 09:17:15 pm
content: As said before, this sounds very much like the shutter flag not being moved at all. Do you have any shadows in any corners? That could mean the shutter is stuck half way.I have experienced that with one of my cores and managed to repair it by simple adjusting a screw a bit so it could move again, cycled it a few times and carefully tightening the screw once again so it operated as expected.If you can take the lens off take a look. There are different assemblies for shitter flags, so a possible repair might look different. Also depending on how severe the fault is.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2021, 09:31:03 pm
content: Another point (maybe) :I don´t hear a thing, not a "click", nothing...It would be a pity if this one couldn´t be fixed, in general it seems it is a "fast" one, moving objectives are displaying without remarkable delaying.160x120, -20 to +250 degrees celsius aren´t that bad, even today.And main thing (for me), it´s manual focussing...Well, next Weekend I´ll tear it down and hopefully se what´s going on there.Martin

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2021, 07:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on August 10, 2021, 09:31:03 pmIf you don't hear a click, then the shutter is stuck. Literally not moving.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 09:37:23 pm
content: Hi...Digging this thing out, starting with a stupid question:"Unscrew" the objective, I can see the sensor of the cam - But how can I identify the shutter ?I see a black area, nothing else...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 04:11:06 pm
content: *Push*Here a pic after releasing the objektive...Where is the shutter ?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 04:17:57 pm
content: I did a tear down on this camera in its “Satir” branding here….https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/thermal-camera-_teardown_-the-satir-minir80-by-fraser/Having looked at that thread, sadly I did not show the FFC flag operating but you can see its actuator solenoid in the lens block. If you operate the camera without a lens mounted you should see the FFC flag move across the face of the microbolometer when an FFC event occurs.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 04:32:50 pm
content: I have dug out my MinIR80 and will check the FFC flag operation for you. On charge now.The flag will come in from one side of the microbolometer. It is not an iris type. It is only seen when brought into the optical path.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 06:58:20 pm
content: Whilst looking at the microbolometer window (lens removed for visibility), the FFC flag swings down from the top left with its arm pivot point located top right.The flag is square in shape.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:03:15 pm
content: The FFC flag rotary solenoid is ringed in the attached picture. You can see the return spring that it acts against and that returns it to the parked position.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:30:28 pm
content: Thank you !Will check this tomorrow.Martin

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:47:21 pm
content: While you have got the camera apart, you might wish to gently clean the microbolometer window with a micro-fibre cloth and some IPA. Your looks particularly contaminated with dust / dirt.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:00:23 pm
content: Hi,Will do and:Teared apart now...But following the plug to the pcb doesn´t make me happy, it seems someone has done some soldering to the pins...So the issue was known I guess..

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:17:45 pm
content: The obvious tests are ….1. Continuity check on FFC flag solenoid.2. Check of FFC Flag solenoid with low voltage and a series current limiting resistor to avoid overcurrent. It will not need much, say 2V with a 1K resistor to start with and if no movement, creep up to 5V and see if the solenoid operates or at least looks like it’s trying to move. If not, yet it has good continuity, it is a mechanical fault. Either the flag mechanism is jammed or a detached magnet inside the solenoid.3. If the solenoid is OK, monitor its input connections whilst the camera PCB is attached and running. The lack of a FFC event drive pulse to the solenoid would suggest a failure in the solenoid driver circuit or associated PCB traces.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 09:06:59 pm
content: Hi,The DC-resistance of the Coil from the "Solenoid" is 6.9 Ohms....A supply with 100mA limited runs into its currentlimit without driving the solenoid.The mechanic is manually free moveable, you can see the shutter then.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 09:55:13 pm
content: The area around the plug, pics taken with andonstar microscope.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:24:21 pm
content: In my comments on the Satir version that I dismantled, I said that some connectors appeared to have been hand soldered, and not with any great skill ! My pictures of the same PCB show similar questionable soldering on that same FFC solenoid PCB connector. I think that may be just the way these cameras were built.I am a little surprised that the FFC solenoid did not operate at 100mA. It would be worth seeing if the drive pulse is present for the FFC solenoid. If it is, it suggests the issue may well reside inside the solenoid. the resistance you measures on the solenoid pins sounds about right to me. Hence my comment about including a resistor in series to limit current. I would have expected a current of less than 50mA to show activity in that solenoid but, if i am honest, I cannot remember the last time I tested one as all the ones I disagnosed had either corrosion induced issues or failed windings at the output pins.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:29:57 pm
content: Well, 5v/6.9Ohms are about 720mA so no wonder the supply shut down.Solenoid...Is it a motor/servo which drives the shutter ?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:36:33 pm
content: There should not be 5V across that solenoid. It should be powered in a controlled manner to avoid such excessive current. I would expect a switching transistor and current limiting resistor combination in the simplest configuration plus a diode to deal with back EMF. It may have a darlington driver in the adjacent IC marked 330h or it may be some dedicated solenoid driver IC.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:48:12 pm
content: It is worth noting that the actuator is a limited rotation solenoid and not a motor. It contains a field coil and a shaft that is attached to a steel segment or even a magnet. It is like any other solenoid except that it rotates a shaft rather then producing a linear motion. It is effectively a low resistance coil, just like in a relay.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:55:10 pm
content: QuoteIt is exactly this IC (U10), the connections of the solenoid goes only to this one, more exactly the "plus" line, minus is gnd.Tomorrow I´ll examine the area around the connector, trying to get a signal for the scope.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:55:43 pm
content: A sample rotary solenoid datasheet is attached. These things are more current hungry than I expected ! Almost 400mA in the case of the attached example.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:02:14 pm
content: This rotary solenoid is nearer to your units resistance and needs around 315mA to operate. It is a bi-stable model but I would expect the coil currents to be similar.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:03:26 pm
content: QuoteTherefore a current limitating resistor above say 10 ohm wouldn´t make sense.But the circuit must deliver the current for only a short time ( how long ?).Tomorrow I´ll test the solenoid with a little bit more power...

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:08:47 pm
content: Useful page on the rotary solenoids used in thermal cameras etchttps://www.brandstrominstruments.com/standard-rotary-solenoids.php

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:12:10 pm
content: Interesting!Hmm...which type the cam got...I guess none of the three as the shutter will be forced back due to the spring.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:33:27 pm
content: The attached CAD file suggests that your coil resistance would be designed for 3V to 5V direct operation (no current limiting resistor).

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:51:38 pm
content: So "tomorrow" I´ll set the current limit up to 700mA and the voltage to 3V, then we´ll see if something´s happen.If it works, next step will follow, checking the signals via scope.BTW:Why is this needed ?I mean the shutter, why you must cover the "sensor" for a short time ?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 11:01:00 am
content: Shutter/solenoid works!Giving more current and it reacts on/off wise.So the failure must be on the pcb...Time to do some reverse things.Martin

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 11:06:27 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 30, 2022, 11:51:38 pmMicrobolometers are chronically unstable with ambient / sensor temperature. So, about once a minute there is this process (#) written into the software:Close shutterLook at dataWork out what to add / subract from the pixel data to get a flat image of 'all pixels are the shutter temperature'Save differences for each pixelOpen shutterAdd/subtract pixel differences from every frame from now on.(#)There are 'shutterless' cameras that try to remove the patterns by image analysis and more comprehensive calibration vs sensor temperature.Bill

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 12:27:39 pm
content: I have tried to identify the IC marked “330h” but came up empty. I thought it could be a logic driven mosfet switch or even just a MOSFET pair but have not found a likely identityFor certain you can treat it like a “block”…… power and 0V input, control input on/off (likely whatever voltage the processor generates at its I/O and a output drive to the load(FFC solenoid). It will be a case of checking for the presence of reasonable voltages on that IC’s pins and seeing whether it is getting the correct inputs and producing the expected output as a result. Hopefully reverse engineering that small circuit will be relatively easy. That hand soldered connector is worth checking for continuity as well.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 04:17:18 pm
content: Hi,With a very high possibility I´ve found the suitable one...So next step is to solder a testlead onto pin 5 (on/off) for checking it with scope.Martin

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 05:35:56 pm
content: It´s getting more and more interesting...First, it´s indeed a FDC6330L switch (U10), pinout matches with the results I´ve get with scope.Second...No need to solder a testlead, the tip of the scope probe is small enough - But the cam must be disassembled, I couldn´t use its battery, so I connect a PSU adjusted to 7.2V and appx 750mA on it.Surprise:After pressing on, PSU reaches the limit...Hm? OK, more current...Pressing start and two things happen.Initial input current is above 1AAnd: First time ever I´ve heard the internal beeper while starting...After this, current decreases to "stable" 520mA - Boy, didn´t expect so much.Then measuring and yes, it´s like fraser wrote, the input signal is 1sec width and got an amplitude of 3.3V .And this will periodicly happen every minute....Watching the current meter on the psu, when input pulse appear, current rises over 800mA...Hm...Measuring the output to the solenoid....aha, output is given !!!What´s going on here...And I don´t know what I´ve done, I´ve moved the spring letting the shutter one time "flipsing" manually - After this, shutter is always active for 1 sec every minute until I´ve stopped the measuring.... or that was pure coincidence - Then I got a strange feeling gentlemen.The Accu which comes with the trotec was claimed as "new" from the (private) vendor.Looking at his specs...1000mAh...I´m not a expert what accus concerns but could it be that this is simply too weak...??Remember, I´ve heard the beeper sound for the very first time as the external PSU was connected.Must think about it, here some pics..

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 07:30:06 pm
content: Some info that may help…1. The start up current of the camera is high because the microbolometer incorporates a heater to raise the microbolometer die to operating temperature at thermal equilibrium. This is usually around 32 Celsius.2. These cameras are not the best and I found my SATIR version microbolometer temperature stability during the first 10 minutes of use to be pretty poor. The FFC shutter was operated a lot as the camera stabilised. An FFC every minute sounds a bit too often but could be typical for this camera. Many cameras use a FFC interval of 2 Minutes or employ an active monitoring system to determine when an FFC is needed.3. 520mA is not exceptionally high for such a thermal camera.I forget how long a battery is supposed to last in this camera but that could give you an idea of the expected current draw by the manufacturer. 1000mAh / Current draw = Maximum Run Time4. The battery in my unit has died so I cannot do much with the camera at the moment. From memory the battery is available as a Sony camcorder equivalent. I forget the details though and would need to check. If the battery is not performing well, the run time will decrease but if the camera completes boot OK and runs for 10 minutes whilst stabilising, the battery is likely OK, at least in terms of system operation.I will be sourcing a new battery for my camera and will share details if I identify which to buy.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 07:38:39 pm
content: Well that was easyThe battery is a Sony NP-FA70 clone.I attach a picture. My battery had a stated capacity of 1220mAhFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 07:41:12 pm
content: A Germany based seller of a clone battery…https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384964213398?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=t3HlhxGxQOO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=BgpdXaaLSkK&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPYCameron Sino batteries have been reliable in my experience.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 07:43:53 pm
content: Thank you Fraser,Will buy it and then we´ll see what happen.What do you think, is it possible that the shutter circuit won´t work correctly when the battery is too weak(not meant what steady current delivery concerns, meant in a "dynamical" way) ?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 07:52:33 pm
content: The camera draws maximum current at first start so a weak battery would show up itself then. I would not expect the FFC flag to be a valid sign of a weak battery but then I do not know enough about this camera to be certain. Monitor the voltage across the battery with the camera starting and running. Look for a significant voltage drop on your oscilloscope when the FFC shutter should be operating. That will show whether the battery is suffering in a way that deprives the camera of adequate current availability.I also have the identity of the expansion connector that attaches to the bottom of the camera if you think it would be of use to you. From memory, the camera takes serial UART and the docking station contains a UART to USB bridge pcbFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 08:02:29 pm
content: The expansion connector plug is a Molex Handylink product that I bought from Radio Spares some years ago. It looks to be discontinued now.The RS No. is 196-700https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/telecom-connectors/0196700A cabled version was also available under part number 196-744https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/serial-cables/0196744I likely have the pin-out somewhere as well but would need to find it.Fraser

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 08:07:57 pm
content: Thank you again,Would be interesting when I know the cam works stable.Quote from: Fraser on October 31, 2022, 07:41:12 pmHave a look at the pic there and then on mine...My accu "says" 7.4Wh, where the other is marked with 4.8Hmm...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 09:18:43 pm
content: Asked the seller, it´s 7.4Wh...Ordered now, let´s see what will happen with a fresh new accu...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 06:24:36 pm
content: QuoteNothin new, re-assembling all together....Shutter don´t work.It´s really annoying..OK, tear it apart again...

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 05:55:30 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 10, 2022, 06:24:36 pmDid you check those tantal elco's? Maybe the board has not enough capacity any longer to start the movement of the coil? You could try to add some temporary additional capacitance and power it from the battery to check if that changes anything.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2023, 09:54:14 pm
content: Hi....Stupidly, the battery for my "new"thermal camerahas not arrived yet, only next week....This brought me to deal with the Trotec again.Today I replaced the tantalum electrolytic capacitor(150µF...wow), which is directly connected to the shutter circuit.Nothing...remains so, no shutter movement.Nerve...What now.So I investigated the board further.The camera has a lot of switching supplies on the board, which convert the 7.2V of the battery, the "shutter circuit" also has its "own" supply, 3.3V.I then soldered test leads directly to the exchanged tantalum and connected an oscilloscope to it.I wanted to see if the voltage drops when trying to turn on the shutter.So prepared the camera halfway assembled, the battery takes over the supply, switched on and........The voltage remains stable...So it had nothing to do with the shutter being turned on when I connected an external power supply.This must have had another reason.This makes me so curious that I will measure again tomorrow, at various points.More on this later.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 04:00:45 pm
content: Hmm...Scope is connected to output to the shutter, a second channel measures the current through the shutter.Output is there, current is flowing also - but no shutter movement.Interesting, must look further.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 07:47:39 pm
content: Hi,No caps, nothing on the pcb - It must be the "motor" of the shutter...I took the camera apart and fed a 3.2V signal to the shutter "motor" whose connector.Then turned on the power supply, a current flows, but nothing moves.In the off state then moved with the finger the wheel on the motor, no tangible resistance, the mechanics with the shutter moves smoothly.And now it comes:Again voltage applied, the shutter moves...Over and over again, as soon as the 3.2V is applied.Then I let it rest for a few minutes, applied voltage again - Again only current, no movement...This can only be the motor of the shutter, right?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 08:27:03 pm
content: The unit is a rotary solenoid rather than a motor.If a sensible currently flows it indicates a completed circuit so you are not dealing with a broken or intermittent field winding. If excess current is drawn, it could indicate a winding shorting to 0V or even to its own windings if there is damaged ECW insulation. Both cases could prevent normal operation due to decreased field winding flux.You have stated that the solenoid spindle rotates easily. This tends to exclude the solenoid bearings as a source of trouble. These solenoids usually contain a permanent magnet or steel core. It is worth checking that the magnet or core is still securely attached to the rotating shaft.You may have to dismantle the solenoid and inspect it under a microscope. If the field winding has suffered an over-current event, you may be dealing with a field winding that is intermittently shorting to itself internally and collapsing the magnetic field. This occurs when the ECW coating has partially melted due to abuse.Fraser