Windows Modern standby bullshit that don't sleep but pretends to - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 05:46:05 am
content: I had an issue with one of my laptops with Windows 10 LTSC 1809 four years ago. It would not go to sleep with the power attached. Long story short I disabled from doing that it by adding some power options in registry I think I think but didn't add it to my disc image back again and can't remember the setting so now trying to do it again for this other one so trying to compared the previous laptop. I'd thought this sort of stuff would be a glitch but apparently not.I'd be very angry at the time with it was "PRETENDING"to go into sleep and found out just now this is what it was exactly doing where it drained the battery twice this month and many years ago for the other one as I put it in the bag expecting it to go to sleep so what's the point of a sleep button if it is going to do that.https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/xps/xps-15-9570-bios-130-sleep-mode-gone/647f7bd2f4ccf8a8dea1c8d4QuoteQuoteUtter bullshit!No! They REMOVED a feature or setting in the firmware.Supporting it should not warrant removal of settings especially brought and paid for with the product. Reminds me a little like the Sony and the Other OS thing in 2011. Looks like there are strings attached to the agent who has to support only Microsoft not the user. Again it's ALL about Microsoft again not what the customer wants and they don't seem to care about the battery or overheating.*Sod the user for support.QuoteIt seems Microsoft have now "fixed" this issue "for themselves only and nobody else" by removing options to turn it off in build 2004.https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/how-to-disable-modern-standby-in-windows-10-may/db950560-33da-4a90-8340-b1f181f5efe6QuoteSo Microsoft are now DICTATING the states I want it but PRETENDS to go in sleep when I command it and expect it which I find a damn insult. It's almost reminds me when I was about 5 and the parents pretend and fob off the children like they wouldn't notice when they pretend to be sleeping in this game.Like I mentioned before in this thread:Quote from: MrMobodies on October 28, 2024, 04:14:48 pmhttps://www.elevenforum.com/t/lenovo-laptop-wont-sleep-when-plugged-in.12468/Quotehttps://www.tenforums.com/general-support/157734-v-2004-update-removes-ability-turn-off-modern-standby.htmlQuoteQuoteIf that is the case I wonder is Microsoft paying Dell for this?It effectively pretends, the fan still runs as it is almost like this little shortcut I once had many years on the quicklaunch menu to simply turn off the display.Bloody STUPID! idea like that thing with the DCH drivers.Looks like LTSC 1809 will be my last one as I can't tolerate this nonsense.Set false illusion by giving the option of going into sleep and saying it does? which is not what it is going to do but stays on in the bag.Drains and causes battery wear and possible overheating in the bag where.Not in control of my own stuff where they end up damaging it.Anyone came across this issue?What do you think?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 06:03:13 am
content: It is not a Dell or Microsoft issue, it is a much widerculturalstance in information technology. Even open sourcegnomeandfreedesktopprojects do the same, removing user options, because they simply believethey know betterthan the users what the users actually need and should be able to do.I suspect it has to do with the concept of who should be in control of how the tech is used. Even in open source there are projects and lots of people who want to "carve out" a volume they "own", being the absolute rulers of, to the highly aggressive exclusion of any competitors or even co-operation with others. (And no, I'm not talking about the Linux kernel. They co-operate well with for example BSD developers, often dual-licensing drivers and kernel contributions, so that they can be utilized in BSD kernels as-is.)Unfortunately, I have no solutions to offer to this. I myself either accept this, or carefully avoid these situations, depending on their impact on myself.

author: garrettm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 09:23:47 am
content: So I had a Lenovo Kaby Lake laptop that supported both S0ix ("modern standby") and S3 (suspend to ram). When using Windows 10, and playing music in the background, the laptop would go to "sleep" and continue playing music... Like WTF Microsoft, does anyone actually test this shit in the engineering/QA department? Anyways, going though the same settings as you mentioned, I could enable S3 and actually go to "sleep" in Windows. But... this broke the WiFi card, which disappeared upon waking.Fast-forward to my new Lenovo Tigerlake laptop, and S3 completely is broken in both Windows and Linux. I can only use S0ix. I have since changed over fully to Linux, but sleep on this new laptop is a bit fickle. I have to disable the "embedded controller" (acpi.ec_no_wakeup=1) or it will rapidly drain the battery when powered "off" and disable PCIe memory mapping (pci=nommconf ) to make my Lenovo Thunderbolt 4 dock work after waking from standby.Honestly, S3 was so much more reliable than S0ix. Intel insists that S0ix saves power and wakes faster. But what is a few milliseconds compared to broken ass FW not actually working with "modern standby"? And the power drain difference between S3 and S0ix is likely negligible for most situations--enough so that S0ix is pointless to use in the first place. It would be a different story if the FW of peripherals like Thunderbolt docks, external GPUs and such would actually wake correctly using it, but I've had shit luck on that front. (The same dock worked flawlessly with the old laptop using S3 for standby.)

author: garrettm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 09:38:47 am
content: I think most of the issues with "modern standby" are due to the "embedded controller" doing stupid shit like waking up every 5 seconds to check for network access and other pointless "features" that simply kill battery life. Then there are weird edge cases like when a laptop is put into standby while charging before disconnecting the power cord. This can cause the laptop to draw significantly more power while "sleeping" and literally cook itself if placed into an enclosed space like a backpack. Again, I don't think anyone who designed these "features" actually tested them in real environments with real people doing real people things. It might work fine on a lab bench under very specific conditions, but take it out of that limited environment and the whole thing falls a part. Microsoft, Intel, and all the laptop vendors clearly can't pull their heads from out their corporate assholes to see how badly they've broken the one feature people expect to work on a modern laptop.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 10:17:26 am
content: Quote from: garrettm on December 12, 2024, 09:38:47 amYep. In Linux, this means that with these stupid devices, you need to hook into the sleep triggers, and at minimum, unload and reload the kernel driver upon wakeup. Even some touchpad drivers need this, because they don't wakeup correctly (with the vendor Windows drivers doing some nonstandard crap at wakeup.) Sometimes you even have to unload the driver prior to sleep; thealxmodule is one example.Good thing is that these "we know better how to use your device than you do, user" people have not yet managed to stick their mitts this deep yet, so someone with sufficient knowledge can fix these issues –– but only as long as the hardware is actually capable of it, and disabling it in BIOS/EFI/ACPI tables is pretty shitty thing to do.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 10:42:42 pm
content: Windows also more or less now hibernates by default when you "shut it down", if I got it right (but it's such a mess that it may have changed), so that the next power on is not actually a full reboot.Also allegedly to remove any "friction" as the new buzzword says.I also lost count of Windows users who had Windows decide it should forcibly update itself right when the user's ready to leave work and shut down Windows - update taking ages, the user losing it and force-powering off the PC to be able to leave. Next reboot fails and requires a reinstall. Apparently, everyone's happy with all this and keeps asking for more. Who are we to discuss that?I don't use Windows anymore.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2024, 11:06:21 pm
content: It sounds like Windows got worse than systemd.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2024, 08:38:27 am
content: It seems to be working at the moment and other times it don't. I only noticed it was going into S3 when watching the event log for events.I noticed it happening when the fan suddenly changes from max on manual mode to bios in tpfancontrol where I can feel it start getting hot so that could be some Lenovo service I installed.If it worked in a way where it results in, no heat given out, the fan stops, power consumption is brought down to as before and I can see it then I wouldn't care less but this seems to be working against me with overheating and couldn't be good for battery.I wonder if Microsoft are working on a mechanism to control it remotely via the firmware so once connected up they can run certain things in sleep and wake up the machine as they please where they couldn't do it with S3.The last thing I had like this was a Lenovo W700 where sometimes on sleep, I'd think it'd be going into sleep where I put it in the bag but it'd just hang, fans would eventually go to max, it'd get hot and the battery will drain. I found it doing that one day sleep on the desk and it wouldn't wake up, just fans up at max hot air coming out. I removed sleep option for a while but I discovered one day that it was the Quadro drivers at the time causing that to happen.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2024, 12:56:17 am
content: It started doing it again like before intermittently but found this time only when the power cable is plugged in.When I restarted then it seemed to go in sleep with the power apply but intermittently happened again later pretending to sleep.https://blag.nullteilerfrei.de/2019/03/05/stop-entering-away-mode/Thanks to this article:QuoteSo some overzealous person at Microsoft had been putting in processes to start this stupid thing.I am not sure if this is connected to Modern Standby or in addition to but pleased to stop this nonsense. It reminds me of adaptive brightness where they'd be different things doing it and sometimes hidden in the power savings settings of the graphics drivers.https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standbyQuoteRather THAN?What's WRONG in addition with? It is only increasing like that but not naturally because they are DEMANDING manufacturer's do it.QuoteLIARS!QuoteThey ordered Dell to remove the option but Dell offers an earlier bios downgrade.Quotehttps://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/11jer7z/modern_standby_fixed_after_changing_sleep_state/QuoteLie lie lie lie lie lie lie!So it isn't that, there isn't a setting that could turn it off, when they ordered manufacturer's like Dell to remove the setting and others just disguise it under some compatibility setting where one setting stops it working. They made it LOOK like it can't be switched off when it can hence pretence.QuoteNo that could be done already by simply closing the lid. It is not a friggin phone this is a friggin laptop a large one with a great big display, heatsink and fan on it with large power requirements and will never compete with a phone for battery life.QuoteBullshit...*It just turns the screen like before where you'd close the lid.**By just turning the screen off and lowering a few power states but still on.Quote*So they look upon it as "equivalent"It is not the same thing and will never be equivalent with the fan going in the bag and it producing heat.**I'd be that'd be the stupid netframe "apps" in the appstore and promotion stuff they install behind their backs along with the updates.QuoteSleep means sleep.... it doesn't mean to pretend to sleep, the fan going around, producing heat and wasting battery life as if it was on. Until it could do those things and maybe cap tasks to run at power levels the same as S3 then maybe it is a gimmick as above it just turns the screen off and goes to lower power state with some fancy modern pretty trendy name "Modern standby" applied to it.Even if they do get it to work properly with lower power levels I'd still want it to SLEEP and do absolutely NOTHING behind my back when it put it in "SLEEP". Maybe they should make an additional mode called "STANDBY" as well for this sort of thing where I'd know the screen is just off.So rather than develop this "concept" properly over time they make it artificial and PRETEND it can't be stopped or reverted back to S3 on existing gear whilst demanding manufacturers to go along with them, remove options and delude the user that t is be design and there is no option where there was and can still be off via other means effectively deluding the user with something it already does with the lid down set in low power mode.Bloody STUPID!When they say Support" sounds to me like "forcing upon"Microsoft not developing stuff like this to work properly but by pretence with a gimmicky name.Buzzword bullshit:Modern Standby, consequently, user experience, smart phones, inclusive, market segment, Microsoft Store app, conceputalizes, equivalence.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2024, 01:26:11 am
content: How about hibernate? Might be more suited to your needs, although I can't find it on my W11 laptop.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2024, 01:42:19 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on December 19, 2024, 01:26:11 amNo it's working now as it should. When I select "Sleep" it now goes into sleep.This time it turned out to be AWAY MODE with no setting and nothing specified in registry.For what I am doing I don't need the hibernate.If they listed this Modern standby maybe "Standby" on the shutdown menu items in addition to "Sleep" then that'd be a lot better:If the user decides to put it in a bag knowing it'd be some time then sleep.If they know they going to take it around an office all day then the modern standby "just turn screen off" and reduce power levels to the lowest it can go whilst running some background tasks might be useful as a starting point and work from there rather than forcing it upon for everything and everybody and then lying that additional modes don't exist.