Choosing between entry-level 12-bit DSOs - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: awakephd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pm
content: **** Even as a newbie to this forum, I understand that this is a question which can generate religious fervor and inflammatory rhetoric. I would really, really like to avoid that, and just get some straightforward input. Note that I did not say "objective" or "unbiased," because I assume each person will have some bias towards one or another, but if the input could be focused on features and tradeoffs rather than ad hominem attacks on the character of those who dare to differ, that would be most helpful. ****On to the question: I am planning to buy my first DSO in the next couple of months, either to supplement or replace my beloved but massive Tektronix 465M. I have been reading extensively (here in the eevblog forum and elsewhere) and watching YouTube videos, seeking to gain a good understanding of the options. For the very modest budget and modest needs that I have, it seems clear that either Rigol or Siglent are the brands to consider. My sense is that a year ago, the choice between the brands was partly driven by price, with the Rigol 1054 slightly less capable than, but also cheaper than, the Siglent 1104. My sense from six months ago is that the then-new Rigol DHO804 was the unit to beat. Today, however, we have competing 804's (Rigol DHO804 and Siglent SDS804) that appear to be appear to be priced identically at $USD 439.This is where I am thus far in my research, reflecting the fact that the Rigol 804 has been out longer than the Siglent 804:Rigol DHO804: compact size, possible use on battery, extremely hackable, easily available (e.g., via Amazon); unclear to me how many bugs remain in the firmware or how serious / limiting they are; noisy fan.Siglent SDS804: brand seems to be slightly more highly regarded, higher sampling rate; not yet as easily available; unclear to me how it compares feature-to-feature with the Rigol; unclear how readily hackable it is; some bugs reported, but again unclear how serious / limiting they are.What I really could use would be an extended side-by-side comparison of the two, ideally as a YouTube video, ideally with the reviewer offering transparency concerning any bias. I've been searching, but so far I haven't found such a thing.I am guessing that the definitive answer is always, "it depends on what you need to do." Since I have never used a DSO before, I honestly don't know what I may find useful down the road, but at this stage, I am looking for the basic DSO capabilities to capture and view waveforms in detail. I don't know that I will ever need to use an FFT - maybe? - and I don't even know what a Bode plot is, so pretty sure I won't need that any time soon.So ... hoping not to open yet another flame war ... can anyone offer some point-by-point comparison or point me to a review? Or does anyone know if such a review is due to arrive "any day now"?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 02:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmThere was an attempt to make such comparison. It has quickly devolved to something stupid.Because if you start really showing that one device has some real benefits, fanboys of competition come in hordes and start with personal attacks.Also such "comparisons" are not really possible in a way.Just comparing on "number of features" is nonsense because it doesn't take into account if "feature" is really useful and how well it is implemented.Also, as you astutely point out, not every user needs same capabilities.Some need only simple device, some want (and know how to use) advanced analytic functions...So, my advice to you is that, sadly, you will need to do footwork yourself.Few pointers to help you with process:- decide what you need.- if you are such a beginner you don't really know what you need, start small.- decide how much money you are prepared to give.- based on needs and budget create small list of possible candidates.- from list of candidates, decide on device that has local support in your country, and has minimum bugs. That is important because you want device to actually work as expected.- all the fuss about hackability is mostly irrelevant if you don't need all the features. See the "how much features I need" point. Hackability means nothing if it unlocks features you don't need. And most of the "usual suspects" are hackable anyways.Good luck.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 02:53:50 pm
content: Welcome to the forum - nice first post. Your intro and your observations of the landscape were all very good and well said.The short answer is that you can’t go wrong with Siglent or Rigol but Siglent has gained very substantial momentum.In the end it will come down to the criteria that are most important to you, and the Q&A in this thread will help you surface and learn/develop your criteria - so enjoy the Q&A and all your research - it might be almost as much fun as eventually owning the new scope.Back to the Siglent momentum, while either a Rigol or Siglent scope will open new learning and doing opportunities for you beyond the no doubt excellent experience you have gained from the Tektronix 465M, what I think might tip the scale toward Siglent is the phenomenal user community here. The Rigol users here are also many and outstanding, no doubt. And there are some users who have experience with both - but as you have diagnosed, recent adoption has gone pretty substantially with Siglent.Net, net: a big part of what makes both Rigol and Siglent scopes excellent is the user community. When you factor in Siglent’s product dev momentum plus the user response around here I think you are likely headed for a Siglent. (fwiw, I have 4 oscilloscopes: 3 analog Tektronix and 1 Rigol - YMMV). Enjoy the journey.

author: csuhi17
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 03:21:23 pm
content: If you want to choose between these two,then, looking at the price/value ratio, I think Siglent is better worth it.It offers more for less and has some good mini features.Many useful things are described in the Manuals.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 04:01:55 pm
content: Performa01 has made asignificantcontribution to the Siglent community which is worth your taking a look at:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-review-demonstration-thread/msg5422823/#msg5422823

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 04:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmYou are skipping a step here: tell us what kind of circuits you tend to work on. Neither Rigol and Siglent models you mention are the best choice for every possible use case. Also consider both have 'bugs & issues' threads on this forum for almost every product they put out. That should count as a red flag. Last but not least, 12 bit is not everything so look at other DSOs as well as they might be a better fit for the projects you work on.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 05:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2024, 04:15:17 pmNone of the manufacturers have a single product at any price that can be best choice for every possible use case. What kind of statement is that? Truism, but shaped deliberately to look like a failure of specific manufacturers..Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2024, 04:15:17 pmAgain, I won't even start to enumerate how many bugs are reported for R&S, Keysight etc.And, again, deliberate misinformation, using large numbers of posts to prove something is bad.Fact that people write more on EEVBLOG about bugs of Rigol (or Siglent) than R&S is first and foremost because of price there is factor 1000x more Rigols and Siglent being bought by EEVBLOG community.And R&S RTB2000 has 17 pages of revision history where full 3 A4 pages are enumerated bugs fixed.Same with RTM3000.Are you trying to help here or trying to indoctrinate people to your world view?I'm all for bug free products. But based on real information, not information warfare..If you have real exact data, please share with us.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 06:02:52 pm
content: If it's the entry line you are wondering about SDS804X HD or DHO804..they are almost the same price atm from European resellers. DHO804 500 € vs SDS804X-HD 510 € (incl VAT)In that scenario, I don't think it takes a Ph.D. to see that the SDS804X HD is a more mature system all around with stronger fundamentalsThe Rigol DHO800 does have some secondary advantages.. fx mobility/ability to run from power-bank, HDMI out etc. and it can be had quite a bit cheaper from abroad... if you are willing to purchase it from Chinese resellers.. it's around 385 € last time I checked (DHO804) and it includes both shipping and 25% DK/EU VAT, where as the Siglent SDS804X-HD is quite a bit more expensive.I don't have either, Im not in the market for a new scope, but if I were & the price was around the same, I would jump on the Siglent... its also runs the same resolution as the bigger siblings just with a smaller screen, so that could also open up for new sw-features that in the future should see daylight on the bigger models.. being ported down if there ain't hardware restriction.. the same res do make it easier to port across numerous models.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 08:13:51 pm
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmWelcome !QuoteA new world awaits you, really it does !Almost any modern DSO offers features that will shock you vs an old CRO.Select the best feature set, not to use now but to grow into.

author: awakephd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 09:54:54 pm
content: Thanks, all, for the warm welcome. A couple of you pointed out my oversight in not specifying the kind of work I might use this for - great question. The two areas where I have played in recent years are 8-16MHz AVR / ATTiny circuits and PWM designs.Indeed, the current pricing for the Siglent and Rigol seem to be identical, at least from suppliers such as TEquipment and Amazon. The latter is not (yet?) carrying the Siglent SDS804, but since they carry many other models, I am hoping this will change sooner rather than later. That is actually one of the factors that has led to my question - I have a fair bit of Amazon gift card money that would make it convenient to buy there. But based on what seems to be the consensus thus far, I am more inclined to go with the Siglent if the price is comparable.With respect to the helpful advice from 2N3055:Quote from: 2N3055 on March 31, 2024, 02:37:02 pmI had meant for my post to address the first several items - I have decided I need (desperately need, if my spouse asks - desperately) a 4-channel DSO; 70MHz is probably more than enough, though I wouldn't object to more; I'd like to spend in the $400 range; thus I have narrowed my focus to the Siglent SDS804 and Rigol DHO804.The last two items raise a couple of follow-up questions: 1) Can anyone comment on support for either product in the US? and 2) How many folks here have found it helpful to hack for higher bandwidth or other features?Thanks again for all the help!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 10:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 09:54:54 pmhttps://siglentna.com/contact-us/is the best place to start and here's the list of all your local suppliers:https://siglentna.com/how-to-buy/

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 10:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmI'd suggest shopping around and not making the decision based on that... there are eevblog discounts (there are threads for each, if you search, with the code or contact info) at several test equipment retailers that will likely match or beat amazon prices.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 10:59:33 pm
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 09:54:54 pmSiglent support is significantly superior. Rigol scopes come out as bananaware, and you're stuck with alpha level products that even when developed are inferior (spec for spec, bode plot, etc.). This is not just my opinion, if you search the relevant threads, you'll see Rigol users complaining about support and updates. You can also see that the SDS800 series is based on a larger platform, and has already received at least one firmware update since release.If you review the SDS800X HD thread, you'll see that the 804 has been successfully (and easily) hacked to the 200MHz 824 level.Yes, I am biased in my general hate for Rigol, but that's because my first scope was a Rigol, and I learn from my mistakes. 😉

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 11:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmNever going to happen. EVERYBODY is biased.Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmYep.Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmThat's the wrong thing to focus on, IMHO.Neither is "best" for everybody.Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmBoth would blow your old Tek clean out of the water.Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmI own the Rigol.I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Rigol is simpler to use and the display/text is much easier on the eyes. When I put my Rigol side by side with my other 'scope the readability of the numbers really leaps out as a feature, it's like a multimeter with low contrast LCD vs. one that's really black and readable.I think I'm also right in saying the Siglent doesn't do WiFi (correct me if there's been new developments there, I don't follow the Siglent threads). I use WiFi alotfor grabbing screenshots and stuff from my PC.The Rigol takes up a lot less space, especially if you get a right-angle USB connector so the cable comes out sideways (why didn't Rigol do that?)There's a lot of junk in the "bug" threads. People are eager to reportanythingthey don't fully understand as a bug. I only knowoneshowstopping bug - the video trigger doesn't work and half a dozen annoyances.You won't have any problems using it to look at wiggly lines on screen.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 11:27:54 pm
content: Hi,Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 09:54:54 pmI am one of the few people who had or have both scopes.I had the DHO804 for 3 months and tested it intensively; I currently have the SDS804X HD, also for testing and as a "break filler" until my new larger scope finally arrives.The question is actually already answered with the release of the SDS800X HD series - I would normally say.But since you don't even know what you need yet, except that it should be 4 channels, it looks different.Basically, both would be suitable for you.What I like better about the Rigol is the UI, which makes it a bit easier to use.It is also more compact due to the external power supply.But that's all the subjective advantages.Both are easy to hack if you need to.If even I managed to do that in both cases, then it's easy.On the subject of bugs:They both have them, I don't know of any scope that is 100% bug-free.But what both have in common is that you can still work with them if there is talk of bugs here in the forum, because very rarely in such a form that a scope would not be usable, that does not exist, not even with Rigol.The SDS800X HD is even better equipped than the DHO800, especially in terms of FFT, but also Bodeplot, Logic Analyzer, frequency generator control (last two as options).More decoders...At the moment it doesn't matter for you, because you said you don't know yet if and what functions you will need in the future.I tend to belong to the "having is better than needing" faction, which saves the hassle of buying/selling in the future.The general support is much better at Siglent, they are visibly trying to eliminate bugs and what I like is that there are almost always new features with the firmware updates.Conclusion,At the moment, it doesn't matter who can/has what better.However, this can change quickly with use, as I know from my own experience.Taken on its own, the DHO800 is a good scope for basic applications.A plus is the successful UI and the video output.With the release of the SDS800X HD, however, the cards have been reshuffled, it offers more for the same price and the support is also better.The SDS804 can be hacked to 200Mhz and 100Mpts memory, plus generator and logic analyzer control.At the moment it wouldn't matter, both scopes would be a leap compared to your old analog ones.But there's not much to be said for the rigol, I can say that clearly without blushing.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 11:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 09:54:54 pm70Mhz is more than enough for AVR work.The "70Mhz" Rigol actually has about 125Mhz measured bandwidth so you wouldn't need to hack it for bandwidth, it might even be an advantage to leave it at 70Mhz.You'd want to hack it to get the 50M memory though.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 11:42:13 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on March 31, 2024, 11:27:54 pmWould you trade that for the Rigol UI/display for "AVR work"?Quote from: Martin72 on March 31, 2024, 11:27:54 pmI heard the Siglent Logic Analyzer is compromised by doing the decimation inside the logic probe so memory for decoding is very limited.(correct me if I'm wrong...)This is probaly moot though as the logic probe is an expensive option so I don't think OP would ever get one.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 12:07:54 am
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 09:54:54 pmsiglent is good because 2GSps, but if you plan to extend to bode plot and LA, you need to add money more than the scope price. rigol is a bit matured in term of hackability and PC softwares and if you think enjoying adventure of tearing down your scope. about local support, siglent maybe better i dont know. if you kinda want to play safe with warranty, i guess you need siglent, ymmv.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 12:13:31 am
content: @Fungus:QuoteI don't know what exactly you mean by that, but I stand by the fact that I think the rigol user interface is "better" in the sense that you can see and access everything almost simultaneously instead of having to scroll down.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 12:41:06 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 31, 2024, 11:27:10 pmCough cough.Member Howardlong did a MSO5000 vs SDS2000X Plus comparison vid a year or 3 back.@awakephdPatience is a virtue.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 01:06:38 am
content: @ awakephd,Like you we came here a few years ago looking to acquire our 1st DSO, coming from a pair of Tek 2265s. Our bias from our career was totally HP/AG/KS, Tek, Fluke, and R&S, never even heard of Rigol, Siglent, nor GW Instek!! Our 1st scope was a Knightkit, then Heathkit 65 years ago, so we've used just about every piece of electronic test equipment ever made, and even created some of our own out of need.So after spending some time watching the various threads, post, rants, flames and such we became somewhat familiar with the various posters knowledge, bias, and credentials.Our only advise is you should do the same, then come to your own conclusionsAnticipating your question,"so what did you choose", it was the Siglent SDS2000X+, the best valued piece of test equipment we've ever had, only recently superseded by the amazing SDS814X HD!! We have no idea how Siglent can offer the SDS800X HD series at their introductory price point, it's like getting a Stella or Boddington's for the price of a Bud LightBTW we have a Rigol DHO814, well it's a customers (long story), sitting right next to our SDS814X HD. We did some preliminary testing for our customer when it arrived and it's quite an impressive DSO, very well done, the hardware is top notch, very capable DSO in ever respect. It has some quirks as you can find in the Rigol threads, but so does the Siglent for that matter.We will not do a direct comparison of the Rigol and Siglent, will let others that thrive on that stuff do such, both are quite capable DSOs at attractive price points!!Awhile back we were somewhat concerned that Siglent was making too big a jump into the higher end equipments and would be neglecting the baseline foundation that got them to where they were as they would be "spread too thin"!! We've seen this happen before, and with Rigol's 12 bit DSO introduction with custom ADCs and such, Siglent would just concede the lower end DSO market.Well Siglent has proven us wrong on our concerns, in fact so wrong they've not only stayed with the low end DSO market, but introduced outstanding products to counter Rigol, some may see this as raising the intro DSO bar againWe've mostly chosen the Siglent path here at "The Labs", and no regrets, Siglent just keeps producing impressive equipment while keeping the older equipment in mind with frequency updates!!Honestly don't listen to us either, we're old and just rambling, but wanted to give you an idea of the path we chose. Do your homework, study carefully, and make your own decisions and you'll always make the proper ones wrt to your needs.Best,

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 01:35:41 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 01, 2024, 12:13:31 amI mean would the Siglent's supposed advantages over the Rigol ever come into play for that usage scenario?eg. Everybody goes on about the Siglent's FFT being more "correct" but I don't see that coming making any difference for AVI work. I find the Rigol FFT perfectly adequate for finding peaks in a signal (and I'll take the much faster update rate over the Siglent's "correctness").Kind of a difficult question.I guess what I'm saying is that most of the stuff the EEVBLOG gear-heads obsess over simply doesn't come into play at that level. I know it doesn't bother me in the slightest (and I'm a heavy AVR user with the occasional bit of Audio stuff).Separate question: How would you rate the Siglent's serial decoders compared to the Rigol?Edit: And while we're discussing UI pros/cons, I don't think the Siglent does windowing. That seems like a big feature to me.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 02:15:41 am
content: Are you suggesting that there's no point of a Bode plot with AVRs?

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 04:03:38 am
content: Quote from: awakephd on March 31, 2024, 02:09:38 pmMy suggestion is to order both the Rigol and the Siglent. Play with both scopes for 2 – 3 weeks and send the looser back to the vendor.Unfortunately, the Siglent SDS804 is not available at Amazon, but you could make sure with Saelig, TEquipment or another vendor if youcan return it in period of 30 days without a penalty.Good luck.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 07:27:30 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 01, 2024, 02:15:41 amPost an example scenario, see if OP can relate to it.