UK government orders Apple to provide a backdoor - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 11:40:08 pm
content: https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-asks-apple-let-it-spy-users-encrypted-accounts-washington-post-reports-2025-02-07/

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 11:44:27 pm
content: If the government has access to your secret data, then anyone does for a price. Governments are littered with very corrupt people.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 12:00:03 am
content: I have to say, of all the countries in the world that are actively, assiduously working to undermine free speech and privacy and turn the entire world into an enormous police state, none, and I'm not exaggerating, none are pursuing this more earnestly than the goddamn UK.Not even China has gone to the lengths that Blighty has done to strip every millimeter of privacy from its citizens.(I'm not making any boasts as a US citizen: we're not far behind in that regard.)"Prison Planet"

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 12:12:19 am
content: China has long been requrirng cryptographic products to be backdoored, I would say it's a wash

author: Fryguy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 12:16:24 am
content: Why does this remind me of the south park episode "Cartman gets an a***probe" ?Does anyone know of a government that does not do anything within it's powers to spy on their people ? This will be the shorter list . . .

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 12:17:46 am
content: We know China has a high level of surveillance in place, that's a well established fact and part of how it functions. And I don't think most of us like the idea very much.But, as a counterpart, the Chinese are at least relatively safe. In the UK, and Europe in general, as mass surveillance progresses, people are increasingly unsafe. We are geniuses.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 12:42:37 am
content: you dont sayim actually surprised moscow is not that high(i think this chart may not be truthful)Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 08, 2025, 12:17:46 am

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 01:04:04 am
content: Governments have tried his one on Apple before and it has had no effect. Just because a law says that a company must comply, the request has to be "reasonable". It would be like a government ordering a company to "break unbreakable encryption", it's not going to happen.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 01:20:15 am
content: This is a diversionary tactic to distract people from realizing that any encrypted communications are already in the open and not secret at all.Every modern device, be it Windows 11, MacOS, iOS, Android has the ability to scrape the screen and log your keystrokes to a database, and then run an AI over it to report anything suspicious to agencies that might be interested. Information can be captured before it is encrypted.To be safe from scrutiny, you need to use a device with hardware you have full control over, and the same with software it runs. For example, you could use older hardware, and an OS like Linux you have built yourself from source and inspected every source file to make sure it has no spyware embedded. For phones, you would have to do likewise, by using an open hardware platform and installing a vanilla version of Android that again you have built from scratch.Needless to say, hardly anyone will have the time, ability, or inclination to do this.So the privacy battle is already lost, and has been for a while. Who needs a backdoor when there is already a front door?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 02:58:32 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 07, 2025, 11:40:08 pmThe only correct response here it's an is ... Apple stops selling in the UK while fighting to overturn / invalidate it.It's not actually all that hard to go to France, Netherlands etc and bring back a few for your mates. And of course people will do that commercially too. If they're unwilling to stop Afghans, Syrians etc coming in on small boats how are they going to stop iPhones?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 03:09:03 am
content: Looking on how things are going lately, I suspect Trump will tell UK to fuck off.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 03:30:44 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 07, 2025, 11:44:27 pmLuke 4:5-6:QuoteAs you can see all governments are under control of the devil. God created man free, while the devil tries to subjugate and enslave people. And he does this through deception and fear.Government officials cannot disobey a superior order, even if it is criminal, because this threatens them with serious punishments and , by committing crimes, they become dependent on the system, since they can be blackmailed and forced to serve evil. This is in line with the devil's strategy of deception and enslavement.John 8:34:QuoteThis explains why they are corrupted and doing criminal - that's the way how devil builds its own strict hierarchy of control.Regarding to backdoors and spying, I think this stems from the goal to subjugate and enslaving peoples, for this the devil needs a total control and surveillance of everyone on the Earth.Revelation 13:16-17:QuoteGod allows devil to tempt people to test their loyalty. And I think the government, can serve this purpose - to test whether people will compromise their conscience.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 08:31:49 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 08, 2025, 02:58:32 amVery easily - they will be willing to stop them because it's terrorism.UK convinces me that Orwell was neither a warning nor an instruction manual, but a prophet and visionary. Those guys love him

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 09:27:17 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 08, 2025, 08:31:49 amProbably a bit all of that combined.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 09:30:04 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 08, 2025, 01:04:04 amYeah, it's worth remembering that politicians and governments are notorious for coming up with ridiculous laws that end up "dead letters". The driving force for politics is not to do what is needed, but what gives good vibes, money, or seems popular (at least within the bubble where the politician in question lives) at the time.For example, total Internet censorship laws beyond level of China have been tried all over the planet for as long as internet became popular in 1990's. They just... get forgotten. Only small % end up being actual laws, and even then it does not matter if no one follows the letter of the law.In this case, the article in opening post is meaningless. Obviously Apple only needs to do what laws say, not what governments illegally "request" them to do, and even less, what unnamed sources claim that governments are supposedly illegally requesting.Laws are, by definition, public.. This:"citing unnamed sources""Britain's interior ministry declined to comment"means that the whole thing is just yellow media being yellow media. It has the same information value as me saying that the sky is falling tomorrow.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 10:22:20 am
content: Are you saying the journalists are lying, or you didn't read?QuoteSource:https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-asks-apple-let-it-spy-users-encrypted-accounts-washington-post-reports-2025-02-07/

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 10:45:02 am
content: Lawful interception in telco is known for dozens years and UK is just trying to catch traffic which is escaped to the channels it can't surveil (e.g. wifi due to encryption).Government requests towards vendors to open backdoor are usually processed without much noise, thus having it published in the news is most interesting part of the story.I'll laugh at one who claim Apple doesn't provide bd to regulator in its country of jurisdiction.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 10:50:20 am
content: It's a very UK thing to do.Maybe someone should order the UK goverment to implement a will of the voters.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 11:58:40 am
content: Quoteterrorism was last months bogie man,the report on the news last night kept mentioning this weeks bogie man ,child porn.Quoteyou got more chance of liechtenstein invading america

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 07:01:58 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on February 08, 2025, 10:22:20 amTo whom are you responding? Please use the quote button to reduce confusion. Probably not to me since I quoted text from that exact same link that was in the opening post? What point are you trying to make?No one said journalists are lying. In this case, they are gossiping (commenting a rumor), and openly admitting that. That's OK - apply normal media critique while reading, and remember yellow media is yellow media.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 08:00:58 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 08, 2025, 02:58:32 amA few mates bringing back in luggage is literally nothing compared to the volume Apple sell. And once it gets to commercial quantities the importers will be in the same boat as Apple.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 10:14:29 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 08, 2025, 07:01:58 pmWhile the info was first reported by the Washington Post (which I don't really know - is it what you'd call yellow media?), this has been apparently "confirmed" by the BBC who have allegedly contacted the sources:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20g288yldko, and while I don't have a ton of respect for pretty much any kind of media at this point, Reuters "gossiping" is kind of maybe a bit over the top. I don't know.The reason both the UK gov and Apple refused to comment is because this kind of demand can't be made public (which the BBC article states). The UK law under which this kind of demand is made possible is the Investigatory Powers Act. This isn't the first time either, so there's little reason to think that it's not true. From what I got, this may have been uncovered by Privacy International:https://privacyinternational.org/itself UK-based.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 10:21:45 pm
content: This!Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 08, 2025, 10:14:29 pm

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 11:44:51 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 08, 2025, 10:14:29 pmWell, Washington Post pretty much lost any remaining credibility of their "sources" after the supposed official "leaked" information of Finnish authorities considering the undersea cable damages "accidents"; which of course turned out that (A) no one was officially considering them as accidents, (B) no information like that had leaked; they just simply fell for the obvious troll source inside Kremlin.Clearly it's a news source which publishes any rumor without much journalistic work to verify the credibility. Further, as their sources are just "unnamed", there is no way for 3rd party verification. Just "trust me bro", with very poor track record.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 02:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 09, 2025, 11:44:51 amWhat utter nonsense. Let me correct that for you "Clearly it's a news source which publishes any rumorwhich furthers their message, without much journalistic work to verify the credibility."

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 07:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 09, 2025, 02:13:54 pmInteresting you think it's nonsense but still made such spot-on addition I can totally agree with.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:45:46 pm
content: Interesting stuff.In years past, if a back door or a key escrow was not implemented, the manufacturer would not get an export license.About 30 years ago I was involved in making DES line encryptors (RS232 in and out, 38k). These were fixed (shared) key boxes. No escrow would be needed; presumably the GCHQ could crack DES in nearly real time, even then.It was obvious that for x million you could build a cracker, with 10k or 100k FPGAs, which would do the job well enough.Others were making similar boxes but RSA for the session setup, and they were tamper-proof to protect the private key, using various means like the storage module encased in glass with a fine wire coil in the glass, etc... I believe such modules are still used in cash dispensers. The GCHQ (CESD actually) didn't want the private keys, since again they could probably ready the DES encrypted data even if the key was changed ever minute.But if you used anything stronger than DES, key escrow was a condition for exporting it.I think the UK govt has totally given up on all this now. But this situation is different. No idea which way it is going to go.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on February 14, 2025, 09:45:46 pmMost of what has been called DES in recent years has been triple-DES, as the original DES became relatively weak quite some time ago.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 07:28:41 am
content: But hasn't the "deprecation army" done the same with 3DES, because the name contains the same 3 letters "DES"?I am sure the GCHQ an decrypt the stuff but they cannot reveal that they can.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 12:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on February 15, 2025, 07:28:41 amTime moves on, and requirements escalate. Its rather pathetic to watch things being deployed on the basis that "they can't realistically be cracked today" when they are part of a rollout that won't be complete for maybe 20 years. I watched this happen with smart meter security over a couple of decades. That is a good example of something which needs high security, as its a financial network carrying billions of dollars of billing information. They also need low costs, take years to roll out, and deployment (rather than the hardware) costs a lot. At each step people have tried to get away with the nastiest solution they could, putting hardware in place that lacked the performance to do anything better as security considerations inevitably increased.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 12:44:30 am
content: Well, I partly take back my earlier comments.Seems like Apple bowed to the UK's pressure, but not in the way I expected. Had it been a case of Apple "breaking" encryption, this wouldn't have passed, however, unbeknownst to me, ADP (Advanced Data Protection), which enables end-to-end encryption of Apple iCloud backups, is actually a user switchable option.That option is no longer available to users in the UK, and for those users who had the option enabled prior to the change, will eventually be forced to disable it (or presumably they will lose all their data).https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-removing-end-to-end-cloud-encryption-feature-uk-bloomberg-news-reports-2025-02-21/

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 12:48:44 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 23, 2025, 12:44:30 amI find Apple's response hilarious. Its such a cool slap in the face to politicians who only want OTHER people's information to be spied on.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 12:55:32 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2025, 12:48:44 amI'm sure all those government organisations who handed iPhones out to their staff are in panic mode. Did those clowns actually believe that it would only be applied to a specific subset of users?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 01:13:35 am
content: Not sure I see how GovUK have lost here. They've achieved what they wanted to do: the ability to spy on citizens data. OK, so they can't spy on other countries citizens but it's really the home lot they want to poke.Apple win this round but lose overall because now other countries see how they can force Apple to remove non-backdoored encryption. Before, it was a case of would they or wouldn't they and no-one really knew, but now it's clearly just a matter of incentive.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 01:30:11 am
content: Apple did the only reasonable thing to do. Providing a backdoor would make their "advanced encryption" fragile and that's not something acceptable if you're serious about security. Apple's encryption is end-to-end, so any kind of backdoor would make it effectively not end-to-end at all, and you'd get the equivalent of security by obscurity.The ones who are losing here are UK citizens. But I guess it's up to them if they are in a democracy?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 03:27:14 am
content: I think it's really only going to have a real impact on the stupid crooks. i.e.: The ones who upload offending content "in the clear".The smarter ones will just encrypt the data before dumping into iCloud (or not use iCloud at all). It also has no impact on the data that resides on the handset. There have been tools out there that get around that for many years. Graykey being the primary one.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 06:01:48 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 07, 2025, 11:44:27 pmSo their data was safe from them until now that they are going to remove the end to end encryption.I thought with the size of the GCHQ that they'd find a way without asking or anyone knowing.I remember something like this happening to Blackerry in 2011 with the Indian government to intercept the messages and I see they got their way in 2013.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23265091Quote

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 06:15:28 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on February 23, 2025, 06:01:48 amI've worked in organisations where this kind of technology is used and developed. A particular Australian government agency worked out how to dump and decrypt the data from certain models of Blackberry quite some time ago. The solution was rather bespoke.But that being said, regardless of the size or budget of the organisation, there are some things that just aren't technically possible in a reasonable amount of time. Even something as simple as full disk encryption has been a major thorn. Whilst the government has money, it doesn't have some magical, mystery powers outside of everyday hackers and penetration testers.Acquisition and interception of data is one thing, and usually a trivial task. Making sense of it, especially these days, is the hard part.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 02:07:21 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 23, 2025, 01:30:11 amThey always have a backdoor ... system updates. Theoretically the user can close that, practically it's always open to Apple. System updates can take all, the only thing stopping that is restraint and contractual obligations. A more targeted backdoor with similar security wouldn't significantly increase fragility as long as Apple controls the keys.Note that when for instance FBI wanted Apple to provide a backdoor to unlock locked devices, they didn't demand the ability to do it themselves ... they just wanted Apple to be able to do it. Whether you think that's reasonable or not is one thing, but to argue it makes the security significantly more fragile is naive or dishonest.Apple already has a near universal backdoor, this is a fact.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 02:31:14 pm
content: Just more bolitics ,the government can now claim there being tough on crime ,have taken measures to stop end to end encryption.on a small percentage of devicesand forced large corporations to make changes.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 03:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 23, 2025, 01:13:35 amGovernments want to spy on other people. Not make it easier for other people to spy on them. They think they are Gods. An enforced lack of privacy is for the plebs, not them.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 04:09:32 pm
content: I think you'll find they want to spy on their own people. Think Stasi. Sure, other people would be nice too, but they want to know what their own lot is up to.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 04:19:33 pm
content: QuoteStasi stammer certainly got a ring to it

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 06:38:09 pm
content: Well,ifUK gov't. officials are in panic mode because of this thing blowing up in their faces, I can't say it could happen to a more deserving bunch, given their horrendous overreach in trampling on privacy and free speech.I must say that we here in the US can only watch with jaws dropping at the absolutely Orwellian moves of those who administer Blighty. So probably not long in coming here as well ...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 09:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2025, 03:28:05 pmI thought they are just 'blessed' since Hirohito

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 01:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2025, 03:28:05 pmYou have very accurately pointed out that they want to spy on others but do not want to be spied on themselves.God, by His nature, is omniscient - He knows everything without the need to observe. His knowledge is absolute and not limited by space or time. Watching people and gathering information is not necessary for God but for those who lack complete knowledge - humans, rulers, or dark forces.It is the devil who seeks control, manipulation, and surveillance because he himself is not omniscient. He operates through deception and information gathering to influence people.Therefore, if someone wants to spy others while remaining hidden, they do not resemble God but rather follow the path of those who seek power through fear and control.As saidabove, Luke 4:5-6 states that all governments are under the control of the devil. This explains why they need to spying and deceive people - such is the nature of the devil. Since he rules through lies and manipulation, those under his influence resort to surveillance and deception as tools of control. This highlights the fundamental opposition between God's truth and the devil's tactics of power and dominion.It may seem unbelievable to you, but all of this is quite real. If you pay close attention, you will notice that many of the officials promoting these sinister ideas are, in fact, devoted to the devil and demons. You can often identify signs of their allegiance to dark forces - such as tattoos and other symbols. Many of them do not hide their devotion to the cult of the devil.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 03:39:27 pm
content: Didnt think this was the place for made up fairy tales.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 04:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 24, 2025, 03:39:27 pmWhat "fairy tales" you're talking about? They are worship Satan and now even don't hide it. Many people have died, and many souls and lives have been corrupted. Just open your eyes and watch.They close churches and persecute clergy. They forbid belief in God, but at the same time force people to worship their symbols (which, by the way, violates God's commandments). They replace churches with their false "religions" that blasphemously mock believers with wild dances in churches and desecration of faith. They promote violence, murder, drugs, sexual perversion... And you want to say that you still don't see it and don't understand who they are?

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 05:25:24 pm
content: @themadhippy, This is a serious discussion about slavery, human trafficking, murders, and real-world crime. Yet, you seem to approach it with a childish carelessness by posting such foolish pictures. These are issues that deserve respect and thoughtful attention. I believe such foolish pictures are completely inappropriate in this context.With time, you will gain a deeper understanding of many things, including the foundation of faith. Faith is not based on books and pictures, but on analysis and logical reasoning of life situations.For example, from the perspective of a naive child, a politician gains power through elections, where people vote for him. From the perspective of someone with experience, power comes from a higher authority, and it is not granted freely - it is earned through loyalty, often involving blackmail or compromising information. This is why so many politicians are associated with criminal activities, without such ties, they would never be allowed to hold power. These are the rules of our world and you cannot change it, the same as you cannot change Ohms law.When you start to grasp these realities and then study the Bible, you will see that it’s not just pictures, but a very strict and logical framework behind these concepts. However, to truly understand this, one needs life experience, and typically, people don’t begin to fully grasp these things until they are around 40 years old or more.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 05:37:26 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 24, 2025, 04:43:08 pmThe joke's on infidels like you, because if you try to burn the proof of God's existence you go to prisonDunno about God, but I swear that some countries today are proof positive that the Devilmustbe real.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 05:38:43 pm
content: Quotecompared to postings slabs of nonsence about some mythical figures whos only claim to existing is they got mentioned in a book of fairy tails

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 06:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 24, 2025, 05:38:43 pmIf you dismiss complex historical, philosophical, and ethical concepts simply because they are written in a book, you might be oversimplifying reality. Serious discussions require depth and understanding, not just shallow dismissal. This reaction is quite normal for a young person - at a young age, people often want to be revolutionaries and question everything. However, lacking knowledge and experience, they often end up in difficult situations by blindly following their rebellious ideas. And this is exactly what the devil exploits to tempt and take control of young souls.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 06:22:43 pm
content: Actually, some of the worst atrocities are performed in the name of religion, on behalf of the perps 'god'.Politicians are often corrupt because they can be. No other reason - they find that as they climb the ladder normal rules don't apply to them so much, and they gradually drift into rule-breaking being the norm. Except for those that are irredeemably criminal, such as some current country leaders.And some politicians appear corrupt because they end up between a rock and hard place, yet have to make some choice. Whatever they do will displease some and be 'proof' of some conspiracy thing.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 08:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 24, 2025, 06:22:43 pmThis is what I call the desecration of faith.Unfortunately, some people don’t see the difference between real faith and those who wear a cassock only to spread propaganda. In reality, faith itself does not commit atrocities - people do, often using religion as a cover for their own ambitions. Despite this, it is often quite easy to recognize such deception for those who are willing to look deeper.Quote from: PlainName on February 24, 2025, 06:22:43 pmIt would be interesting to see politicians who are not criminals. I think it would be hard to find them. Power attracts those who seek control, and as they climb the ladder, they often realize that the system rewards compliance with hidden rules rather than integrity.The idea that corruption happens simply because they 'can' overlooks the deeper mechanisms that ensure only the obedient and compromised reach the top. Isn't it?Quote from: PlainName on February 24, 2025, 06:22:43 pmYes, but this is exactly how the devil traps his victims in his cunning nets.A person who is not a criminal would never choose a path that leads to such dilemmas in the first place - but I believe such people rarely enter politics. And even if they do, they are quickly crushed by the political system.It is also important to note that even a corrupt politician still has a choice - not to commit further evil. However, the devil holds them back through fear of punishment for their past crimes. The deeper they go, the harder it becomes to escape this cycle. With each new crime, they sink further, just like an addict who constantly needs a stronger dose. In the end, only a few manage to break free from this vicious circle.I think at some point, they begin to realize that their end is near. But this understanding comes only when the devil has already woven his intricate web around them, and breaking free becomes nearly impossible. From this moment on, they no longer receive the 'rewards' of temptation from the devil, but become his slaves, held captive by force, threats, and fear. The illusion of choice vanishes, and they are bound to his will, unable to escape the chains of their own making.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 08:49:57 pm
content: Quotewhich is nothing more than a book of storys plagiarised from much older myths and legends,religon is nothing more than a way of keeping the population under the control of some leader and earning said leader a few quid.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 09:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 24, 2025, 08:49:57 pmOne man found a piece of paper covered in strange symbols. He turned it over in his hands, couldn’t understand a word, and threw it in the trash. 'Just meaningless scribbles,' he thought.Another man, a mathematician, happened to see the same paper. His heart started racing - before him was an elegant solution to a problem he had struggled with his entire life. In that moment, this scrap of paper became more valuable to him than all the riches in the world.To one, it was worthless trash. To another, the answer he had spent a lifetime searching for. It all depends on who is looking.Unfortunately, as Schopenhauer observed, in our real world, the first will far outnumber the second.Actually politics is far more complex and nuanced than merely a means for accumulating wealth. While financial gain can be a factor, true political power operates on deeper levels - shaping ideologies, controlling narratives, and influencing entire societies across generations. It is about authority, legacy, and the ability to mold the course of history itself. Reducing it to a simple cash-grab oversimplifies the intricate mechanisms of governance and influence.Those who enter politics with wealth accumulation as their primary goal seldom endure. Lacking strategic vision and true power, they inevitably find themselves outmaneuvered by those who understand the deeper game. In time, they either lose everything and are cast onto the scrapheap of history, or they become mere pawns-servants, in the most literal sense, to far darker and more formidable forces that truly dictate the course of events.In The Prince, Machiavelli meticulously dissected the nature of power, outlining its dynamics and the intricate strategies rulers must employ to maintain their authority. He analyzed various forms of governance and demonstrated why a ruler who upholds and protects the interests of his own people possesses far greater resilience and strength than one who prioritizes short-term gains through alliances with oligarchs and foreign powers.A leader who betrays his nation for personal advantage may achieve temporary success, but in the long run, he undermines the very foundation of his rule. Dependent on external forces and lacking genuine popular support, he becomes vulnerable to shifting loyalties and external manipulation. Ultimately, such a ruler is doomed to lose everything - either overthrown from within or discarded by the very powers he once sought to appease. Machiavelli’s insights remain as relevant today as they were centuries ago.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 09:22:49 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 23, 2025, 06:38:09 pmI doubt anyone in industry specifically relied on ADP for anything, so this is not likely to generate much blow back. It's just some irrelevant posturing.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 11:15:30 pm
content: Please stop to avoid the thread from being locked.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:40:20 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on February 24, 2025, 04:22:40 pmI think he means the bits about a god and devil. Most people have no reason to believe that they exist. "God's Commandments" have no bearing on the lives of a significant percentage of the population.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:55:18 am
content: Remember, under the Five Eyes agreement, any info the UK has, the US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada also have.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 05:04:48 am
content: Quote

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 08:46:28 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 25, 2025, 05:04:48 amYou've taken lots of chances beforeBut I ain't gonna give anymoreDon't ask meThat's how it goes'Cause part of me knows what you're thinkingI bought "I Robot" on cassette in 1977, then back-filled "Tales of Mystery and Imagination", and subsequent albums were insta-buys for many years.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 25, 2025, 04:55:18 amAnd under the lots of people are corrupt rule, anyone else has it for a modest fee.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 06:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 25, 2025, 04:55:46 pmYes, any information collected by the government will inevitably become accessible to criminals.Therefore, mandating a backdoor for government access is, in effect, equivalent to mandating a backdoor for criminals.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 08:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 08, 2025, 12:00:03 amTbh, I don't think they're doing anything different from any other government. Maybe just denying it a bit more incompetently than some.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 08:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 23, 2025, 04:19:33 pmOh ffs. Like the last lot were determined to preserve our privacy at all costs ?I happen to have a preference for the claimed priorities of the present government, and am very glad to see the back of the previous one. But I'm under no illusions as to how much difference it will make in reality. They'll all get away with whatever they can, as Starmer proved very quickly after gaining office with his continuation of the tory practice of accepting bribes. Only the source of the bribes changed.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 09:42:41 pm
content: Quote from: artag on February 25, 2025, 08:47:55 pmFew politicians have a good attitude to the rights of their citizens, but Starmer doesn't even seem to be embarrassed about it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 04:22:13 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 25, 2025, 09:42:41 pmHe apparently said that “Westminster is just a tribal, shouting place". So, go figure what his notion of a democracy is. Just wondering.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 04:28:19 am
content: like game of thronesand you know its kind of ridiculous because this kind of stuff made sense during the london blitz , I don't think your situation is that dire yet that you need to curtail civil liberties to prevent german agents from directing bombers or something. It comes off as very cowardly, or like a seriously.. crippling OCD tendency. england, be brave

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 03:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 26, 2025, 04:22:13 amHe was also asked to choose between Westminster and Davos, and very positively chose Davos. I don't think this was due to his love of skiing.