Killing yourself with solvents (Alcohols and Hydrocarbons I have loved) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 12:57:48 am
content: This is intended to pick up the off topic discussion from the moderation reports thread.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 01:10:01 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 13, 2020, 12:20:17 amI was a great fan of Trichlorethylene and was rather miffed when it went the way of all flesh because of new regulations about chlorinated solvents. Nothing beat it as degreasing agent without being either very much more flammable or much more toxic.The toxicity profile of Trichlorethylene was actually very good, the only real drawback was that it was quite possible to knock yourself out with it if you were stupid enough to use something so volatile in an unventilated space - it's chemically very closely related to Halothane (2-Bromo-2-chloro-1,1,1-trifluoroethane) which is an inhalational anaesthetic.Carbon Tet. was all over the place back in the day. Used to be used by dry cleaners until somebody finally got the memo that it was rather more than just asuspectedcarcinogen. Replaced in dry cleaning with Trichlorethylene. I always associate the smell of Trichlorethylene and with libraries, there was a dry cleaners smack next to the main library where I grew up and there was always a lingering smell of it in the area.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 01:28:15 am
content: We used to go through trichlor by the gallon degreasing evaporater and sputterer shielding at National Semi. It would sit in a potassium hydroxide bath until the aluminum deposits had been dissolved, then multiple DI water rinses (may have been a dip in mild acid along the way, too, I can't quite recall as it was 30+ years ago and I typically only helped out with the degreasing part and not the initial clean) followed by a very liberal trichlor-acetone-methanol degrease, spraying it on with a modified blowgun set up as an atomizer. The evaporation of the solvents made it a bone-chilling task and you'd wind up with very numb fingers after a short time. Wish I'd had the foresight to pilfer a gallon or 5 of the trichlor!-Pat

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 01:45:59 am
content: I've been PM'ing, anyone, who continues to reply, to any of my past posts in the moderation thread. To avoid polluting/disrupting it any further.Talking of polluting, there use to be Evo-stick Glue in the UK (google says there still is!).The stuff from many decades ago, would stink like crazy, from its solvent(s). Some kind of fast evaporating solvent, which I'm not sure off-hand, what it was. I bet/suspect, it doesn't use that solvent, any more.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 02:01:03 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 13, 2020, 01:10:01 amHmm... Wierd.It is still readily available here in Canada (well, Alberta, at least) as automotive brake cleaner. It is my favorite version of brake cleaner, especially since it very useful for so many purposes.This can in my hand is CRC Brakleen brand, in a red and white can... This partial-remnant-can that happens to be sitting on top of my fridge for quick "household" uses without having to run out to the garage happens to say it is made in the USA, but it is obviously an export-to-Canada version of the can since it has only English and French on it and says (C) 2017 CRC Canada.Edit:Manufacturer number is 75089, it's about $6 per can at AutoValue here for the regular-size 539g cans.It would probably get randomly stopped in customs if I tried to send you some, though, knowing my luck.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 02:30:55 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 13, 2020, 02:04:38 amThe problem with most commercially available Limonene is that is isn't very pure (it reallyisdistilled orange oil). So you need a second washing operation to remove the limonene. I keep a spray bottle of limonene in the kitchen for label removal and for cleaning fat spatters off the kitchen cupboards near the cooker. The nozzle of this cakes in a soft sticky waxy residue that needs regular cleaning itself. Also limonene is very slow to evaporate; which can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on what you're using it for.If I'm using it on anything I can't tolerate possible residue on I follow up with either a water and detergent wash, or an isopropanol rinse possibly followed by DI water.I can also relate that, although safe on many plastics, it is a very effective solvent of ABS. I found this out the hard way - let's just say it involves me coming back to find a bit of ABS that used to be 'something' was now more of an amorphous blob.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 02:39:56 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 13, 2020, 02:30:55 amIf you don't mind me asking, where do you get your supply of Limonene from ?I recently tried ebay, but it seems fairly expensive, for a bottle with not much in it.D-Limonene Citrus/Orange Turpene 250ml 100%, for £8.99, seller jamalmiah.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 02:41:00 am
content: Quote from: drussell on May 13, 2020, 02:01:03 amI love Brakleen - it doubles as an excellent wasp and yellowjacket killer, too. Way cheaper than the 'official' wasp sprays, and useful for cleaning brakes and other things, so there's usually a can kicking around in the garage.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 02:54:04 am
content: QuoteAlso used as the propellant in dodgy chinese flame jet fx units.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 03:23:26 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 13, 2020, 01:10:01 amIt is not flammable but still should not be used around flame because the products when burnt are toxic.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 05:17:48 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 13, 2020, 01:10:01 amTrichloroethylene is still available: I have a can of it in my paint drawer (Sprayon EL848). It was manufactured just three years ago. What got banned by the Montreal Protocol was 1,1,1-trichloroethane, because it is an ozone depleter. 1,1,1-trichloroethane was not regulated for health reasons.QuoteNow I'm quite certain you have mixed up trichloroethylene with 1,1,1-trichloroethane. Trichloroethylene or "TCE" is a particularly toxic solvent whose dangers became evident in the 1960s when it began to be found in groundwater around IBM's disk drive factories in Santa Clara, CA. It was largely replaced for aerosol uses by 1,1,1-trichloroethane ("Tric"), which was much less toxic. However, 1,1,1-trichloroethane is an ozone depleter and was banned in the late 1990s under the Montreal Protocol that regulated CFCs.QuoteDry cleaning solvent is almost entirely perchloroethylene (tetrachloroethylene). It is also widely available (maybe not in Los Angeles) as aerosol brake cleaner. My understanding is that perchloroethylene is much less toxic compared to trichloroethylene or trans-1,2-dichloroethylene.These days cleaners are increasingly switching to "organic" (sheesh) clothes cleaning methods including D5 cyclomethicone, or "wet cleaning" using new equipment.I saw some 60% carbon tetrachloride in an old fire extinguisher. Looked like it was still full. Great stuff I'm sure.As far as methylated spirits/denatured alcohol goes;I believe the ratio of ethanol:methanol is 10:1 or more, which makes it less dangerous to contact the skin. The reason for this is that ethanol and methanol compete for the same enzyme, alcohol dehydrogenase. Ethanol gets metabolized by this enzyme to acetaldehyde (the cause of hangovers), whle methanol gets metabolized to formaldehyde (a neurotoxin and cell destroyer). If the active site of the enzyme always bumps into an ethanol molecule, it can't metabolize methanol, which is why the treatment for methanol poisoning is high doses of ethanol.It is still not a good idea to intentionally put it on the skin.Quote from: MK14The products I am familiar with are Citra-Solv and De-Solv-It. Note that many cleaners such as Simple Green also contain glycol ethers in addition to limonene.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 05:32:30 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on May 13, 2020, 02:39:56 amOff of eBay UK (I'll look for the vendor in a minute, but it's long enough ago that it's probably fallen off my purchase history). I got a litre for a sensible price - which with me being a cheapskate probably equates to 'cheap' to most people. I don't have the original HDPE bottle that it was supplied in (decanted it into a proper reagent bottle) so I can't find the vendor's name that way. My usual eBay vendor for solvents and the like is apcpure (http://www.ebaystores.co.uk/apcpure) so it was probably them, but they don't have any at the moment.Hold on .... Nope, - I was right, too long ago. On searching it does seem prices are crazy high at the moment. You might need to wait for the world to return to something like normality before prices go back to normal.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 05:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: helius on May 13, 2020, 05:17:48 pmOh, wait... I misread this all initially also and am incorrect.The 75089 Brakleen I have here is perchloroethylene / tetrachloroethylene.Yes, the same as the dry cleaning solvent. It is handy for that kind of oily stain removal....

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 06:02:56 pm
content: Quote from: helius on May 13, 2020, 05:17:48 pmHere's a video of an Aussie bloke making a bit of a mess trying to get some out...

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 06:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: helius on May 13, 2020, 05:17:48 pmWhat I was confusing was my spelling (which always happens with me with alkanes, alkenes,et. al.). You are right, I did mean trichloroethane. In my defence, I was just copying the existing misspelling perpetrated by another because the Servisol referred to before was most definitely 1,1,1-trichloroethane. I was thinking about the right thing but writing about the wrong one. As I say, not the first time I've done that with the whole alkane/alkene/alkyne thing.QuoteI was thinking back to the 60s when Carbon Tet. was replaced with thichlorethane in the UK (under the tradename Trilene(my spelling of that may be off)) and was then subsequently replaced with perchorethylene.QuoteWe had one of those - a brass 'syringe' affair that my Father dug up from somewhere. He was rapidly dissuaded from putting it on the wall in the kitchen by both my mother (a chemist) and me.QuoteReally it's not much of an issue putting any of these on your skin as long as you don't bathe in them. The whole point of all these skin sanitisers using alcohols of one sort or another is that the alcohol usedistoxic, if it wasn't it wouldn't kill off the things it's supposed to kill off.LD50 (skin)for Methanol is 15.8g/kg (rabbit), Isopropanol > 10g/kg (rabbit) and Ethanol 15.8g/kg (rabbit); so methanol is no worse a toxinfor skin contactthan good old ethanol. This shouldn't be a surprise because the mechanism of transferacrossthe skin to where it can exercise any toxicity is going to be similar, if not probably identical, for all three alcohols. The skin is evolved to be a barrier and does a very good job of that, you have to get through quite a layer of no longer living material before you can get to the living stuff to do it any harm.On a side note, ADH actually preferentially binds to ethanol over methanol.The formulae used around the world for denatured alcohol vary quite a lot. Only some contain methanol, many contain other denaturants either alone or in combination with methanol. I'd have more concern about some of the other denaturants usedin terms of through-skin toxicitythan I would have about methanolper se. A common addition is methyl ethyl ketone, which has an LD50 (skin)of 5g/kg (rabbit) and because of its affinity for and high solubility in lipids it can do a much better job of crossing the skin's barrier.The official formulation for "completely denatured alcohol" in the UK isQuote from:https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-473-production-distribution-and-use-of-denatured-alcohol/excise-notice-473-production-distribution-and-use-of-denatured-alcohol#section16(There are other formulae in common use in the EU at that URL)So "methylated spirits" may actually not contain any methanol nowadays.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 09:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 13, 2020, 05:32:30 pmThanks for the helpful answer. I will wait until after the current situation improves/resolves (unless urgent needs, arise).They (apcpure), also seem to sell electronics use chemicals, such as IPA and PCB etchants.Knowing the approximate price point also helps, which you have done. Because some things are genuinely very expensive, such as insulin. It will probably take a very long time for the price of IPA, to get back to pre-epidemic prices.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 10:29:26 pm
content: IPA is actually around the same price here. Technical quality, 22EUR for 6 1 liter bottles a year ago and 27EUR now.Personally I find that ultrasonic detergents are sufficient to clean off most things. IPA is mostly when I need to wipe something down without getting it wet.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 10:47:53 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 13, 2020, 06:43:14 pmThis article:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=1241216Seems to explain (I've also added my own words/explanation/details, so best to read original article, if that bothers you), that purposely adding poison(s) to methylated spirits, is nasty/criminal-like, because in many cases of poisoning by it. It was children, who accidentally found (e.g. a bottle of it, in a low cupboard, then defeated the mandatory child proof lid) and injested it.With serious risk of death and/or blindness. ('and' because blindness can be earlier symptom, before death).Therefore, it has been banned (I think), by a number of countries. The UK NOT being mentioned in those countries.It seems to say, the US, Australia (already ban it) with New Zealand (at the time of the article), seriously considering, outlawing it (limit something like 0.1% Methanol).

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 11:33:40 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on May 13, 2020, 02:01:03 amAre you sure it is real trike? - and not some kind of substitute... The US brake cleaners are definitely not trike.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 11:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 13, 2020, 11:33:40 pmNo, I had misread that post....See post#15above...

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2020, 11:56:38 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on May 13, 2020, 10:47:53 pmYeah, "meths" was made undrinkable so that it would provide a source of 'pure enough' ethanol for things that need ethanol (some lamps, some varnishes and so on) without attracting the massive taxes applied to drinkable alcohol. Many industrial uses of ethanol become prohibitively expensive if you have to pay booze taxes on the alcohol you use. So we then get a regulatory framework that mandates the deliberate addition of poisons to denatured alcohol if you want to use it for legitimate processes, all because of the calvinist/presbyterian/puritan idea that 'fun is bad' therefore we must have punitive taxation on alcohol. Nowadays it is wrapped up as a 'health' intervention, but most people would drink no more booze if the tax vanished overnight. So we have the stupid situation where the government sets out to deliberately poison people who try to have fun without paying tax on it - it sounds like something out of dystopian fiction when you boil it down like that.Realistically, just adding the bittering agent that is already added would be enough to make meths something only the truly desperate would drink and would do it without deliberately adding something that we know will kill or seriously damage the people desperate enough to treat meths as an intoxicant or consuming it accidentally.The newer formulations seem better in this respect. Isopropanol is a permitted food additive and is little more toxic than ethanol. MEK is more toxic (i.e. it has a lower LD50 concentration), but there are biochemical pathways that will safely detoxify it as long as you don't get too high a dose (About 20-40% of ingested MEK is excreted simply by breathing it out, 5% gets excreted unchanged in the urine and the rest gets either oxidised or reduced by various variants of CYP450 in the liver and gets excreted in that form complexed as glucuronides or sulphates. The point you're usually in trouble is where your body runs out of supplies of glucuronic acid, a factor in poisoning with many substances that you can happily detoxify at low doses e.g. ethanol and paracetamol.). Methanol is the real killer as the detoxification pathway itself produces another highly toxic chemical, formaldehyde.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2020, 01:17:52 am
content: how about simple green?and IMO solvent flammability for hobbyists is overrated, use it outside. you need to be alert and cautious for like 5 minutes rather then thinking about DNA damage and shit laterbut yes, i like carbon tet and ethylene, when I need something special, but I won't use it for something standardbtw: degrease tip, especially for gluing. Since you typically sand afterwards, before you sand be sure to use a scowering pad, it does WONDERS and improves the utility of standard solvents greatly. Don't be too lazy. And you can always degrease in stages, to minimize use of toxic solvents.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2020, 01:42:04 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 14, 2020, 01:17:52 amIt's not the using it that's the point of concern, it's the storing. Most people capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time know how not to set themselves on fire when they've got an open bottle of solvent nearby, but how many of us keep our assorted selection of solvents in a proper fire proof solvents cupboard like you'd be required to at work? It's actually seriously on my list of things that I really ought to acquire. I've got enough flammable, low flash point liquids in this house that they could be a real cause of concern if I was unfortunate/stupid enough to have a fire start in the house. It's the kind of thing that turns a small, learning-experience type fire into a "well, I didn't really like that house anyway" kind of fire.I've been in a small, easily extinguished household fire. Things went from "I know how to put this out" to "I can't see, I can't breathe, I'm just going to shut the door on it and go outside and call the fire brigade" in less time than it took me to type this sentence.Notsomething I want to repeat or would wish on others; well, most others anyway.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2020, 10:02:31 am
content: It is amazing, all the biochemical processes, that go on in the human body. Hopefully these days, when they next invent the new "Methylated Spirits", (just like you described), it WON'T contain any real toxins/poisons. Just stuff to put people off from drinking it.Apparently, lots of people in the US (probably other countries as well), buy Alcoholic mouthwash (and/or vanilla extract , as it is dissolved in ethanol), as a way to get drunk, with little money available to buy it. Or are too young to buy the real thing legally, yet.Example links:https://www.addictioncampuses.com/alcohol/drunk-from-mouthwash/https://kidsactivitiesblog.com/119727/drunk-off-vanilla-extract/Quote from: Cerebus on May 13, 2020, 11:56:38 pmSometimes taxes, end up costing the consumer, many times as much as the tax was suppose to be.E.g. A £15.01 (£0.01 over the £15 limit) parcel from China, could be charged an extra 0.2 pence VAT (UK purchase tax), in theory.In practice, they decided to charge the VAT (and import duties, in some cases) on the total (without subtracting the £15 "tax free" bit), so you need to pay an extra £3.01But, the post office, ADDS on another £8.00 handling charge.So the 0.2 pence (£0.002) (Since we are allowed items for "free", up to a maximum of £15), is actually charged at around £3.01 (for the £0.002 bit) plus £8.00 (Post office + usually more if alternative delivery service) = £11.01

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2020, 06:40:58 pm
content: I started my career in the 70s at a company that used trichloro-something-or-other to clean PCBs. They had stainless trays for manual cleaning under a fume hood for safety but didn't give any training nor did they post any instructions, other than a reminder to put the lids back on the trays. If you didn't, 5 liters would evaporate before you knew it. It would dissolve polystyrene caps and take some part labeling off if you weren't careful.In the mid 80s I moved to a small company and with a real can-do attitude got a 5 gal drum of the same stuff to clean the few boards we built. After about 5 years, that drum became a problem to the company so I just took it home and put it in the garage. Great for cleaning car and bike parts and getting grease off clothes. One day I went out to get a splash of it to clean up a spot and found that it had all evaporated through a small crack in the flexible pull-out spout. The garage was not air tight and I never smelt it and I have two normal (??) kids so I think I'm OK... I also grew up in the age of leaded gasoline and surrounded by tobacco usage so it would be hard to say what caused what anyway.

author: jogri
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2020, 07:38:35 pm
content: Quote from: duak on May 14, 2020, 06:40:58 pmIt probably didn't affect you much as solvents that contain halogens (like chlorine or fluorine) are much denser than air-> it will form a layer of gas on your garage floor and just flow out under the garage door or through vent holes at the bottom. As long as you don't live under your garage you are fine. Btw, if you want something that can degrease parts and isn't as toxic try MEK and ethyl acetate (the acetate sucks at removing grease in bulk but is great for getting the last 5% off).

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 09:05:48 pm
content: Ethyl lactate can also be used as a less-toxic degreaser.And then there's alkylbenzene sulfonate, which some of you may remember as DuPont No. 7 Car Wash. There are a lot of choices for aqueous cleaning, but this works pretty well on plastics and painted parts.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:40:45 am
content: In Australia there is (was?) a solvent sold in hardware stores called "White Spirits." It's a clear liquid somewhat like mineral turps, but smelled quite different. I recall the contents were just listed as 'hydrocarbons' or something like that. I don't have any of it any more so can't check a label.It was very good for general cleaning of grimy dust, like when restoring old 2nd hand electronics equipment cases. I used to use it frequently, holding a soaked pad of tissue in bare fingers as a wipe.End result when doing this a lot over a few months - pretty bad peripheral neural damage. It seemed to be diffusing up along nerves in hands, arms, up to the shoulders. A gradually progressing ache going up the nerves, and numbness of fingers.After I realized what was happening and stopped using White Spirits as a solvent, the symptoms took nearly a year to get better.Whether it's still available I don't know. Probably just the name is enough to make SJW types have a fit.Does anyone know what 'White Spirits' actually consisted of?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:49:55 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 18, 2020, 12:40:45 ama boiling point fraction of crude oil probablyQuotehttp://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc187.htm#SectionNumber:1.1

author: ChristofferB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:04:24 am
content: I've always been a fan of heptanes as a solvent for all that is tacky and oily. Here, it's sold under the name of "purified gasoline" for stain removal, etc.I don't think it's "just" heptanes, probably a low-aromatics hydrocarbon fraction around the boiling point of the heptanes. Works great for oils/fats/waxes and other sticky residue.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:37:37 am
content: I don't know if this is even meant for here but I wish they would stop scenting flux cleaner, why does everything need to smell like fake oranges when I want to clean up some flux? Drives me nuts.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:57:08 am
content: Quote from: mc172 on May 18, 2020, 01:37:37 amOrange oil is actually an excellent cleaner/degreaser - the smell may be real!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 03:15:34 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 18, 2020, 01:57:08 amMore precisely,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limonene

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 03:34:09 am
content: Quote from: mc172 on May 18, 2020, 01:37:37 amThis. One of my current gripes is the common household cleaner "Ajax spray n' wipe" that I use for many things. Used to be non-scented. But for years now it's only been available in supermarkets in various obnoxiously over-scented forms. Lemon, 'Ocean Fresh Fragrance', etc. It pisses me off greatly.Keep meaning to contact the company and ask if I can buy it in bulk drums, without any added scent. Being pretty sure the answer would "no", is about 50% of why I haven't tried. (The other 50% relates to laziness.)

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 05:56:32 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 18, 2020, 12:40:45 amProbably a significant percent of n-hexane.See comments here,andhere is a news article.It was very widely used until the 1990s. Even worse stuff, like n-propyl bromide, was in flux removers after that!Even when using relatively non-toxic hydrocarbon solvents like heptane (paint thinner, odorless mineral spirit), absorption into the skin causes inebriation and lethargy comparable to taking several alcoholic drinks. Solvent intoxication is a major unrecognized cause of car accidents.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 11:02:21 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 18, 2020, 12:40:45 amI have gotten a lot better with using latex or vinyl gloves whenever I touch any chemical. Even IPA, but also when working on the car etc.

author: ChristofferB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 09:35:32 pm
content: Gloves are not a foolproof substitute for not getting solvents on you in the first place.I've had good quality disposable nitrile gloves go completely chewing gum and failing just from acetone exposure. The penetration tests required to slap the little 'chemicals' symbol on the box is only a handful (I think as little as 3?) of substances that needs to be tested for penetrating time.Minimizing exposure - even through gloves - is pretty critical.Funnily enough, when gloves dissolve (or are penetrated) by solvents they gets cold. This happens both with acetone and dichloromethane - which by the way is another great cleaning solvent I wouldn't want to use at home or without a fume hood in general.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 09:37:00 pm
content: High evaporation rate = cold to your skin. Volatile solvents are like super-sweat.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 10:35:16 pm
content: Some nice heavy duty fuel gloves will protect you for a while... but they make precision work very difficult!

author: ChristofferB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 10:45:41 pm
content: It's not the evaporation, it gets significantly colder faster than that.

author: jogri
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 10:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 18, 2020, 10:35:16 pmDepending on the chemical they could only last 4 hours before they stop protecting you... And i wouldn't recommend leather gloves when handling chemicals for the simple reason that they tend to get soaked with the chemical-> You have permanent contact between the chemical and your sweaty fingers->ideal absorbtion into your body.The german GESTIS database is a really nice source of information if you want to know what gloves to wear for which chemical, and it is even available in english:http://gestis-en.itrust.de/nxt/gateway.dll/gestis_en/000000.xml?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=gestiseng:sdbeng$3.0Just go to "safe handling"->"personal protection". I would highly recommend using that side when working with new solvents as most gloves are good against a few different solvents, but provide little to no protection against others. (And some chemicals like fuming nitric acid shouldn't be handled with  gloves at all)

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 11:26:57 pm
content: Yep. There's practically no synthetic material that has good resistance to all solvents. It's reassuring that chemistry grad students are surprised when nitrile gloves are attacked by acetone and don't know why low boiling point and high vapor pressure liquids feel cold when they get spread on your skin and exposed to air.(Phase change from liquid to gas requires energy; this is sucking the heat right out of your skin.);;;And don't worry, Christoff, everyone on the forum knows I am a bit off, at times, when it comes to social interaction. Some are sure I'm just full of myself.One of the biggest recurring problems I find in our education and understanding of our own knowledge is... You take 100 intelligent and highly educated people who aren't accountants, and not a single one will believe he understands the tax codes of their country/state/city. These 100 highly intelligent and educated people who aren't biologists, and not a single one will think they know how mitochondria work and replicate. But you take 100 highly educated people of any field, and 99 of them believe they understand physics. They think Newton and Boyle etc. just wrote all that stuff down so you can calculate stuff. But that the main gist is obvious and intuitive, and they get it. But 98 of them are wrong. They carry incorrect connections/assumption in their mind, which they formed at a time when their view was limited, and which worked well enough to get them this far. At a certain age, those bad connections will never be fixed.Not necessarily talking about you, and I'm sorry, Christoff. You can post mean response w/e, and I don't care. Will not respond. I deserve it for being a twat.

author: ChristofferB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2020, 12:35:55 am
content: I should clarify, what I mean is some solvents gets 'colder than they should' by evaporation, the absorbtion or dissolution of nitrile (haven't tried with other gloves) is likely endothermic.Another point about solvent safety is that a mildly toxic solvent that's readily absorbed through skin can 'trojan' more toxic chemicals into your body. This is especially a problem when cleaning unknown nastiness and gunk. It's especially bad with DMSO and DMF i believe.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2020, 12:52:00 am
content: QuoteI'm the idiot.You are clearly more mature than I am (I make no claim otherwise), and you probably have some previous experience dealing with my kind. Thank you for that.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2020, 01:56:09 am
content: Quote from: jogri on May 18, 2020, 10:51:59 pmThe choice between getting some painful burns, or some even more painful burns from the glove catching fire...

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2020, 03:06:53 am
content: I've tried using both MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) and DCM (dichloromethane) for solvent welding. MEK is great, relatively slow evaporation, gets absorbed well, easy to place parts. DCM is awful, it evaporates far too quickly, smells like cancer, and so thin that it's hard to brush it on the desired area. I know both of these solvents are recommended for welding ABS, styrene, etc, so what's the deal?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2020, 04:03:35 am
content: If you want to weld ABS or styrene, acetone works really well. Acetone is thin and evaporates fast, but you can thicken it by dissolving some ABS or styrene bits in it. Maybe make them with a drill or a saw. This is the only solvent welding I have done that actually is completely practical. Even welding plexiglass to ABS this way, no signs of brittleness or cracks, some 10 years later. I tried to take some bits off, 10 years later (some unique parts I had welded onto something I was scrapping), and that wasn't happening even with a hammer.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2020, 07:10:22 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 18, 2020, 03:34:09 amOne reason for the proliferation of "this slightly changed version" and "that slightly different version" of consumer products is Walmart. Walmart (at least they used to) requires that their suppliers reduce the price on each SKU annually. Well, suppliers caught on quick and would make minor changes to their products ("New 16.5 oz size!") that required a new SKU.Edit:You could always just make your own. This probably wouldn't be practical because the ingredients would be too expensive in the amounts that you would ever use, but fun to think about.Edit edit:Looks like the Klean Strip brand denatured alcohol available at a popular chain of home improvement stores in the USnA still has a mother truckload of Methyl Alcohol (see attached piece of the Safety Data Sheet), as well as a little MIBK.