Trimble Thunderbolt - Cheating? Aging product? Total lack of technical support - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 08:26:00 am
content: Situation:Trimble Thunderbolt Receiver ..... (GPSDO 10 MHz)Symptom:The date passed by the receiver backed by almost 20 years! Real date 1 August 2017 at the receiver display 15 December 1997....what ?OKProbably a bug in the software, just update the firmware and it should be OK.But no, here is the information from the support ....Mr Brad (Tech suport Trimble)Unfortunately, the unit that you have is experiencing the WNRO issue. The WNRO issue is not fixable via a fw update. the unit will need to be replaced.Can it be exchanged for another device under technical support?NO !!!Answer tech :"Unfortunately, you will need to purchase a new device"SorryBuy it newWhat the Fuck !The device is IC flash and you (only) need an easy IC firmware update, but Trimble has it in the ass.ONLY BUY NEW !!!==============================================================Conclusions :DO NOT BUY GPSDO TRIMBLE DEVICES. NEVERInclude documentation "problems" of trimble devices.

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 09:01:51 am
content: I have also had personal experience of bugs in their Resolution T timing receivers. Due to Trimble making incorrect assumptions about a RESERVED field in the navigation message, when it was changed by the USNO the receivers started losing lock once every 12.5 minutes.That one was fixable via firmware flash (took a few months for the fix to be released), but that's cold comfort when you've got them inside non-internet-connected equipment in hundreds of secure sites all over the country....

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 09:09:43 am
content: In this case, do not issue new firmware

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 09:38:00 am
content: Losing lock (even briefly) was unfortunately not really acceptable behavior in this case, so the firmware upgrade was the only solution. Thankfully the equipment connected to it could deal with it well enough that it wasn't critically urgent and could be put off until the next time a technician was scheduled to be there, but it was a close one.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 03:15:37 pm
content: Week number rollover where the 10 bit week number broadcast by the satellites wraps from week 1023 to week 0 is a very common problem with GPS receivers. It happens every 19 or so years. Most receivers have a week number offset compiled into their firmware so that the receiver is good for 19 years until the next rollover + compensation offset occurs. The next generation GPS satellites have a 13 bit week counter, but it will probably be 10 years for the current satellite constellation to be replaced and new GPS receivers that know about 13 bit week numbers are available.Thunderbolts have been an obsolete product no longer supported by Trimble for many years. The date rollover issue is documented in their user manuals. It would be nice of them to offer a firmware update, but I can't really fault them for not offering a firmware fix for such an old product.Lady Heather has an automatic rollover detection and compensation feature built in. After 10-15 seconds of dates before 2016, it corrects the date forward 1024 weeks. You can also force the rollover mode on from the command line so you don't have to wait 15 seconds for the date to fix.Most NTP drivers and GPSD know about rollover issues and have code to work around it.

author: K1JOS
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 03:29:06 pm
content: check website of KO4BB ---http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.phpHe makes a nice inexpensive display for the Thunderbolts and will have corrections built into his firmwareJerry NY2KW

author: branadic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 04:01:14 pm
content: Bought a Trimble Thunderbolt E last year via a german distributor. Device received a few weeks later.When monitoring the ouput level of the 10MHz signal I found that output voltagel was way out of spec and 10MHz everything but stable. So I contacted the distributor, but as he was only a distributor he couldn't help and forwarded information to Trimble.After some mail comversation I sent him the GPSDO with a description of the failure I found.He sent the GPSDO back to Trimble. I'm not sure if they do really have qualified employees, but they were not able to understand the problem, which I don't understand as they only had to monitor output voltage to see the problem of the unit.However, weeks later without a feedback from Trimble the distributor decided to order a replacement from Trimble and sent me this unit, which is working now quite well in our lab.Conclusion: Trimble support service is very annoying and everything but customer friendly.-branadic-

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 05:48:56 pm
content: Trimble is well aware of the problem and can fix it by updating the firmware.But better sell a new product for thousands of dollars! Better for the company.But they forgot the fraudsters that buyers are not losers.And they are generally well-known electronics technicians.BranadicHave you bought a new one? Device, so grace does not do that they have (they must!) You replace the device with new ones.But as you wrote, TRIMBLE has been causing problems !?My device is already several years old, and TRIMBLE believes that it can have a customer's on ass.

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 06:03:40 pm
content: good to know

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 10:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: max-bit on August 01, 2017, 08:26:00 amHi Maxbit,I understand that you are frustrated. But I feel that your post is missing some relevant information:When was the product manufactured? It is normal for manufacturers to discontinue support of legacy products at some point in time -- provided that the suppport period is reasonably long.I assume you are using this unit with some kind of front end. Can't you fix the week roll-over in the front-end, so you can continue to use the Thunderbolt?

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 10:51:38 pm
content: I looked for some kind of EOL document for the Thunderbolt, but couldn't find one. It looks like it ceased to be a 'current product' sometime before 2010. The typical Thunderbolt sold on ebay and elsewhere - i.e. the plain package - isn't even the retail version of the Thunderbolt with the red label. Who knows what the actual requirement was for the plain package version? Maybe they didn't even care about the year.It doesn't surprise or upset me that it has this kind of problem since it's a GPS problem rather than a Trimble problem. Every GPS device that tries to extract the date from the satellites will have this type of headache eventually. As ebastler stated, support eventually ends for every product.It's also worth noting that this issue doesn't affect the Thunderbolt's performance as a GPSDO, i.e. providing 1 PPS and 10 MHz signals locked to GPS. It only affects the year. The time and the rest of the date are still correct. Lady Heather already compensates for it. I've seen one report that a Linux fix has been implemented. I haven't seen anything official from ntp.org.Ed

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 11:22:33 pm
content: One could just stick a newer more modern GPS in there hidden in some corner to provide the NEMA data.

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:56:26 am
content: Thunderbolt sold on eBay and Thunderbolt E (lab kit) are the same products.Of course, Trimble does not care to support but sell new ones.Of course, the problem is with the GPS (specification) but it can solve the software update.However, Trimble does not care about that.And here is the main problem.

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 08:37:32 am
content: To make it more ridiculous, after asking a technical question whether there is a possibility to reprogram the flash memory itself (, contact stopped.Here is TRIMBLE suportThe device is an am29F400bb flash memory. So reprogramming memory is no problem.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 08:50:34 am
content: Quote from: max-bit on August 02, 2017, 08:37:32 amYes, Trimble sucks, in your opinion. We got that now. What else do you expect from this thread?

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 09:05:33 am
content: Firmware to update.

author: branadic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 09:08:33 am
content: QuoteYes, we bought a new unit via distributor in germany from Trimble. And yes, the defect unit was replaced by a new unit.Trimble was not able to understand the problem I discribed (output voltage level is not within spec), instead they told us that the unit is working fine. My guess is, they haven't even touched nor tested the defect unit that was sent back to them.However, the replacement is now working fine and within spec.-branadic-

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 09:12:02 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 02, 2017, 08:50:34 amQuote from: max-bit on August 02, 2017, 09:05:33 amYou expect the audience on this thread to provide you with firmware?!Come on, man. You bought a third-hand product cheap on ebay. You claim that it is "the same as the Thunderbolt E", but it is probably an earlier version (Thunderbolt or Thunderbolt II?), which Trimble no longer supports with updates. You never had a business relationship with Trimble, it appears. So either you solve this problem yourself, in whatever host you use the Thunderbolt with, or you buy a new unit, Trimble or not. Simple as that.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:36:49 am
content: Quote from: max-bit on August 02, 2017, 03:56:26 amNo they are not! Different design. Different receiver. Different firmware.

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 01:54:54 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 02, 2017, 09:12:02 amget coding you slackers!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 02:23:58 pm
content: How long should they fix things like that?If its easy I think they should for at least 20 years. Or make the software modular or user-configurable.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:29:23 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on August 02, 2017, 02:23:58 pmThe Thunderbolt design is pretty close to 20 years old...

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 04:18:55 pm
content: @max-bit i'm quite sure you can get the tbolt sold to a user here , for a decent price. If you don't want it anymore.I have 3 tbolt's , and i got them for 10MHz & 1PPS outputs.The Week Rollover doesn't affect the frequency outputs , just the date sent.I'm using Lady Heather, to dicipline my tbolt's , and "TP, the author"even made it automatically detect the rollover. AND show the "corrected date".See the yellow "ro" after the date , indicating it's rollover corrected.I'm using the linux version, that runs native X./BingoI wonder what happens at the next leap second though ... Well see.And i'm quite sure that it will still output a nice 1PPS & 10Mhz , maybe with a glich around the leap

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 05:53:29 pm
content: I see my Lassen LP's are in the list, but to call for replacements.Maybe for the original application (TBolts) it does not matter?

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 06:00:59 pm
content: No replacements only buy newfull price maybe ...

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 06:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on August 02, 2017, 02:23:58 pmTo put that in perspective, Windows XP was released to manufacturing in 2001, sales halted in 2008 and extended support discontinued in 2014. So that is ~13 years, for a /hugely/ deployed and popular product, from a company that had a ton of money to support a product. I think it is extremely unlikely to think any company would support a product much past a few years after EOL'ing said product.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 07:00:04 pm
content: you rub salt on those old wounds

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 07:24:31 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on August 02, 2017, 04:18:55 pmBTW, the GLP keyboard command will set the location to "private" so you don't have to photoshop the screen dumps.The code should still handle the leapsecond properly... but maybe not. The tbolt reports a "leap pending" flag based upon the satellite almanac... but that gets set months before the actual date of the leapseoncd. Heather calculates the date of the leapsecond (and shows a countdown clock) based upon values in the almanac message. Heather attempts to adjust the almanac values based upon the rollover compensation, but there's no way to test that... unless somebody wants to buy me a GPS simulator.

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 04:47:19 am
content: Propose to read the code from the firmware, and try yourself to make a correction in the software ?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 05:39:07 am
content: Quote from: max-bit on August 03, 2017, 04:47:19 amWho are you proposing this to? You want your Thunderbolt roll-over issue fixed, so feel free to give it a shot.

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 05:54:34 am
content: Do you have to write a concrete thing in the matter?So far not so much apart from pointless advice.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 06:07:52 am
content: max-bit, I can certainly give you more concrete advice if that helps:Stop whining!Seriously: You are disappointed with Trimble. This is based on what I consider unrealistic expectations; as pointed out before you have probably bought an end-of-life product via ebay. And now you seem to seriously expect that the forum members should write you an updated firmware?!

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 06:07:59 am
content: Quote from: max-bit on August 03, 2017, 05:54:34 amDo you have an example of something that is supported after a 20 year life, especially a "technology" device?I cannot think of anything. Even regular old household appliances, automobiles, and my very first cell phone will no longer function today. Even my television is no longer compatible with the "new" digital broadcasts in my country (and Sony is not going to fix that).But if you come here just to vent, that is understandable. Maybe try and make a dent in Trimble's sales for some vengeance?How do you use the date output from your device? Maybe if we better understand how the issue impacts you a solution may present?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 11:12:02 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on August 03, 2017, 06:07:59 amTurns out that max-bit actually has a nice web page online which describes his GPSDO build:http://www.rflab.pl/rflab_wp/wzorzec-czestotliwosci-10-mhz-w-oparciu-o-gpsdo/(Scroll down a bit for English translation in blue.)It uses a semi-commercial display solution by VK4GHZ -- unfortunately discontinued, and not open source:http://vk4ghz.com/thunderbolt-display/It seems that the date is merely displayed in the LCD for information, in which case it would just be a nuisance to see the wrong date. But maybe VK4GHZ can be talked into updatinghisfirmware? His product seems to be a relatively recent one, last built in 2013. Maybe VK4GHZ (Adam from New Zealand) is even on this forum?

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 11:22:13 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 03, 2017, 11:12:02 amDieder, of ko4bb.com fame, sells a Tbolt monitor and is currently updating the firmware.But, for some perverted reason, I prefer using Lady Heather... perhaps on an RPI with the touchscreen. The code now supports touchscreens and has some screen optimizations for smaller screens and a video mode setting for full screen on the 800x480 screen.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 01:32:52 pm
content: I have a triple power supply that was manufactured in the 80s but "is still a current model".It has transformer humI sent them email and they made some constructive suggestions that I have been considering.If I want they will sell me 3 replacement transformers that don't hum.. For more than I paid for it used. Of course.Now that's support.Solution for now?Bought GW Instek GPC-3020

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 01:37:44 pm
content: I will contact VK4GHZ to see if he will reply.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 02:38:30 pm
content: Now you all are tempting me with more buying stuff...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 02:36:34 am
content: another Human Error.

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 09:00:49 pm
content: I want to refresh the topic a bit.Trimble Thunderbolt EThe version marked 60333-50 (this is a newer version from 2010)Unfortunately, support for these devices is still a mistake.Trimble seems to have forgotten about these devices (zero support)There is a new company selling these devices called Novotech, although you can also find the same devices branded as PROTEMPIS???And now no company supports the device??This is some big joke

author: The Doktor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 02:40:08 pm
content: Perhaps you can find a nice crying towel on eBay?

author: max-bit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 03:57:28 pm
content: Very funny HyHy