More mains outages with renewable energy? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 08:29:15 pm
content: Will there be more mains outages when our power grids are supplied almost exlusively by wind and solar? (as they soon will be).I believe we will see regular daily outages. Would you agree? (even if only for 20 seconds each day)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 08:31:36 pm
content: That might depend on whether the power grid is connected to sources outside of your State (US reference).Since solar power has a diurnal variation, storage might be a good idea.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 08:43:04 pm
content: It's Sunday, it must be treez.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 08:45:13 pm
content: “Exlusively” is an interesting Freudian typo in his original post

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 08:52:40 pm
content: Can we get regular 24-hour outages for treez's house?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 09:02:10 pm
content: I don't think short power outages would be a real issue. Mainly wind and solar would need quite some storage and than short outages would be less of a problem. The point is more like unusual weather patterns depleting the storage capacity, like a low wind winter, or severe weather in general. More frequent extreme weather is expected anyway - with solar and without.I don't hink rolling blackouts are very effective. Many of the high power uses (like heating / cooling, car charaging) have some storrage capability and would take a similar energy, just a few hours later.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 09:41:12 pm
content: Provide incentives to adapt demand to supply and a big part of the problem will solve itself. That is, make energy more expensive when supply is low and cheaper when there's a surplus. Also make the energy cost progressive during high demand so that those who use a lot would have to pay a lot more, but only running essential stuff would remain cheap.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 09:46:04 pm
content: How do you even function on a daily basis with such bitterness and paranoia?

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 01:07:39 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 04, 2021, 09:46:04 pmTreez is on the knife-edge between "Sufficiently-advanced parody" and "genuine kook."

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 02:50:36 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on July 04, 2021, 09:02:10 pmLike California and Hawaii, I doubt enough storage capacity will be provided once politicians see the cost. And there are considerable rents to be collected through rationing. ISPs, at least US ones, do it so why not power companies?Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 04, 2021, 09:41:12 pmThat would be my preferred solution based on economics however it itself could produce grid instability, and of course the rents issue mentioned above may make it infeasible politically. That is why we have cap and trade.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 03:07:07 am
content: No. It's a manifestly obvious problem and the reason why renewables are always talked aboutin tandem withenergy storage systems. Whether battery, pumped, molten salt or etc.Tim

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 03:16:18 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 05, 2021, 02:50:36 amDirt cheap thermal storage is a perfect match for HVAC and hot water, two big residential loads.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 03:24:42 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 05, 2021, 03:07:07 amI used California and Hawaii as specific real examples where storage was deliberately ignored. Real Engineering covered it a couple years ago:https://youtu.be/h5cm7HOAqZYRecently I have been watching TIK's videos discussing economics during World War 2 which have lead me to think more and more of politics as being the art of replacing and ignoring the science of economics.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 04:18:50 am
content: Yes, cautionary tales of ignoring the obvious. Another thing politics is good at...On a fundamental level, politics is about determining the distribution of scare resources. Mind, that distribution need not be particularly "fit", for a given definition of "fitness" and "organism". (Evolutionarily speaking, villages ofup to ~150 individualswould be the superorganism whose fitness matters. Presumably, that explains the ~1% rate of sociopathic/NPD or related traits in the population; their natural interest in leadership makes their survival contingent on survival of the group, but they needn't be particularly concerned with the survival of any given individual within that group.)Applied today however, there are several segments with little or no scarcity. There is more than enough food to feed everyone, if we wanted to. Or spare budget to cover it, if we wish to preserve the market based economy that drives it today. But politics always finds a way. If scarcity doesn't exist, it will be invented, and so we have food waste simultaneous with starving poor. Or for another example, all the marketing tactics employed to justify the pricing of video games, which are distributed digitally nearly for free. Anywhere there is a buck to be made, it (apparently) must be, and anywhere there's a lot of bucks to be made, economics gives way to politics, and everyone involved (and everyone wants to get involved) wants their kickback. Big-economy projects are a notorious case; the history (or more accurately, lack thereof) of high-speed rail in the US is a prime example.Tim