Old style boat anchor logic analyzers...HP 1660CS, etc - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2018, 10:18:17 pm
content: Are these worth getting into? I'm watching one on ebay that appears to be working and has all the connectors included, they want $195 or best offer. Seller that I've done business with before. I've used PC-based logic analyzers in both Altera and Xilinx FPGA toolchains so I'm aware of the advantages there, but I was thinking it might be fun to have a standalone one for building and debugging logic circuits. Is it worth it compared to something like a Saleae box, which is quite a bit more expensive new?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2018, 10:49:36 pm
content: Well they have the advantage of having a lot of channels and not requring a computer, while being relatively inexpensive. They definitely have niche uses although keep in mind that the probes are typically worth quite a bit more than the analyzer itself. Disadvantages are typically small memory depth and they won't be aware of modern serial protocols.I use my HP logic analyzer working on vintage arcade boards, it was cheap and is a fun toy, I don't think I'd recommend them for most people though.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2018, 11:21:04 pm
content: If it's cheap and you have the space then they can be useful, but as you can get cheap PC based analysers these days, and the state functionality is less useful nowadays that processors don't have external buses, applications are limited.One thing they are particularly useful for is reverse-engineering vintage microprocessor based systems with external memory.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2018, 11:25:08 pm
content: I like my 1660AS because its no baloney and it just works and I have the cables stowed away on top in the velcro ready to quickly get at a job rather then opening desk drawers, finding applications, etc..The only thing is with it, you need to1) know how to use it quickly and learn the menus2) have all the accessories like the grabber clips, mini grabber clips, cables, etc3) have more accessories like DIP or SOIC tap clips (3M etc).4) have alot of all the accessories because what this thing seems to excel at is looking at pretty much every single digital logic signal in your circuit at the same time and giving you peace of mind that you are looking in the right place to identify a problem .Biggest hurdle I had with making good use of it is not having extension cards for spectrum analyzers and shit. It's probably a complete beast for fixing a complex system but if you don't have the damn capability to connect it its pretty useless.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 12:01:14 am
content: Once you need like more than like 16 fast channels and advanced triggers, you'll love them.16500C/16700 with 16556/7D card even has rather large memory.HP logic probes are easy to build yourself, so I tend to use them more often than the even more capable TEK 714/715 with TLA7AA4.USB logic analyzers are usually more like toys. Convenient to use, but sampling rate, channel count and trigger are usually more like a joke.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 12:18:48 am
content: You can get USB logic analyzers that are very fast if you pay, but there are a lot of inexpensive ones that are more like toys. I'm a big fan of standalone test gear though, having had my share of PC based tools they are nice when you need something portable but too much hassle IMO.IIRC the 16C500/700 are newer instruments that are much more powerful, I think mine is a 1670 or something, rather old but it was only $25. I had to pay nearly $200 on top of that to collect a complete set of probes but I can use those with other gear too.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 12:53:40 am
content: Thanks for the opinions! I messaged the seller to ask about what it comes with, since their picture shows those "ribbon" connectors these all seem to use for the logic connections in all 4 plugs on the rear of the unit.I have a complete set of Pomona SOIC clips for starters, at any rate.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 02:40:28 am
content: beware the ribbon cable is not enough, you need a ribbon to what I call floor mop adapters (they look like janitorial mop heads at the end of the ribbon cables).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 05:15:40 am
content: Those octopus adapters and grabber clips that plug into the end of the ribbons are the most valuable part of the whole setup. The logic analyzer itself is typically worth $25-$75, while a complete set of probes and grabbers can be a few hundred bucks. The issue is that when these things get retired, whoever is disposing of surplus equipment often just throws all the random cables around the lab in a box or in the trash, not realizing that a lot of cables are specific to particular gear. You end up with a lot more logic analyzers on the market than probe assemblies.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 06:23:02 am
content: urghh that CRT looks old.https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-1660C-Logic-Analyzer/352299499749?epid=1222693946&hash=item5206afc0e5:g:SngAAOSw~l5aoGDU:rk:5:pf:0and 100MHz state analysis? 4K depth memory? thats abysimal...http://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/Agilent-1660C-Datasheet.pdfman you can get better... how about we make a deal? you try to fight this... $100 start bid i hope nobody else here is interested...https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-TLA714-Logic-Analyzer-Mainframe-w-TLA-7D1-DSO-7N4-136ch-Module/283286888603?epid=1100488730&hash=item41f536e09b:g:YN4AAOSwn6JcBAE0:rk:1:pf:0and then i pay you $100 (or less?) and shipping (paypal only) for the TLA 7D1 stucked beside it, because i need it. and you still have TLA 7N4 2GHz timing 100MHz state module with it. there is no probe, but i got a deal 7 x P6860 for around $150 incl shipping is on its way. either you can buy from me the excess 3 x P6860 that i wont be needing (i only need 4x for my (was TiN's) TLA7AA4) or we can barter trade 3 x P6860 probe with the TLA 7D1. (edit: since the P6860 that i got already including the semiconductor head, you wont be having headache finding active octopus part that can cost many other hundreds, its just a matter of making a diy clamped pcb to match the head's pin and passive octopus arms flying lead wires.)and then you can add just a little bit for 8GHz timing 450MHz state TLA7AA4 full 32M depth memory from Canada... (there are many other options near you with less price and memory, but i think this one is pristine)https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-TLA7AA4-ES-136-Channel-Logic-Analyzer-Module-32-MB-MEM-450-MHz/173470600995?epid=28022560422&hash=item2863a74f23:g:7VUAAOSwK3tbcpAU:rk:6:pf:0ref:https://xdevs.com/review/tek_tla7aa4/https://doc.xdevs.com/doc/Tektronix/TLA7NA/tektronix_tla7na_series_service_manual.pdfand then we can share thoughts on usage and tricks since i just got and rectifying a TLA714 + TLA7AA4 from TiN. if not because $500 shipping quotation from seller i wont be telling you this... ymmv.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 06:54:26 am
content: Well, that could be an interesting deal for sure, so long as the price for that mainframe stays reasonable. Last thing I tried to bid on (a frequency counter) should have maybe gone for $150 but I think the guy who got it's max was well over $200!I definitely might be willing to make a deal there. Can you PM me pictures of the probes?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 06:58:37 am
content: well no secret here... see attached... you still can get better deal in ebay US if you wait patiently i think... for example maybe this...https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-P6860-34-Channel-High-density-Probe/253977579303?epid=24012077773&hash=item3b223e4f27:g:Vy4AAOSwxPNb6cUm:rk:5:pf:03 or 4 of this may cost you the $100, ymmv..

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 07:17:42 am
content: I'll keep an eye on it over the weekend and see if I can grab it. Thanks for the probe link...that does look like a nice deal.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 07:18:23 am
content: what are you troubleshooting that its abysmal?seriously i wanna know

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 07:52:55 am
content: its glitch or jitter detection is in order of ns where tla series in order of ps. maybe try probing 400MHz lanes... i'm none the expert but the original owner said you can look at DDR3 lane with 714, ymmv... why pay the same for less capable spec? and err, older model/part?Quote from: 0culus on December 07, 2018, 06:54:26 amyes this is luck business. in the battle that i've lost recently, the item started $100 for 6 days, in the last 5 minutes the battle begins from 0 bid, i upped to $750, then i lost to some other guy, he got it at $760. in normal market it costs $4K, i wasnt too desperate since i already got the item, i was just thinking if i can resell it. if i was desperate, i can up the price to $2K or more. anyway i got the item (earlier) at half the market price through begging in counter offer business, the guy got it at a third from what costed me, he maybe more rightfull than me. otoh i won another item thats usually sell at more than $2K complete working set at quarter the price with nobody's (competitor) around. far earlier i got an item for 1/10X the normal cost, so.. you might want to try your luck sometime...btw: the TLA714 is my best score ever since i got it for free from TiN (i only pay $150 shipping Korea to Malaysia, not a small money though for someone else) when asking about similar thread as you (maybe you are too late few more weeks)...How Relevant Old Tektronix TLA7*** Logic Analyzer Today?i noticed later through eevblog searching that he tried to sell it 3-4 years ago. maybe nobody responded and he want to get rid of it, so by luck its been passed to me. the unit seems in the self-disintegrating state though so my job is getting it back integrated. getting $99 probes is another good thing for me here in the middle of nowhere... TLA7D1 unit is my next victim, got to be patient enough... ymmv..

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 08:04:32 am
content: i just never imagined dealing with digital systems that fast with alot of IO as a hobbyist. i guess you can make your own embedded system.won't you need active probes for ddr3 ?can you actually try to fix modern equipment that uses like windows n stuff using that? what other uses are there?

author: Drewbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 08:08:24 am
content: If you watch part 4 of the Apollo AGC Restoration video (recently posted to YouTube), you will see a 1670G doing what it does best.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 01:38:37 pm
content: I have a 166x. It does not support differential signaling for example, which limit it's use. One feature I used a fair amount in these old systems was the persistence. I would guess about 10 years ago, I went to use it and it would no longer power up. The power supply had failed. I don't remember it being a major deal to repair but keep in mind these are fairly old and may need some TLC.Before this I had a 1631D I think. External floppy drives and was my first real DSO. At some point I wanted more channels and bought the newer one.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 04:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on December 06, 2018, 10:18:17 pmThere are other cheap and much better than Saleae, take a look at this one:https://www.thelabeshop.com/Analyzers/Protocol-Analyzers/Multi-Protocol/Acute-TravelBus-TB1016E/It has HW triggers for: DALI, HID over I2C, I2C, I2S, LIN, MDIO, PMBus, RS232, SMBus, SPI, USB1.1.And it can decode a ton of protocols.With to modes: Protocol Analyzer Mode and Logic Analyzer.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 05:20:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 07, 2018, 06:23:02 amLooks bright and razor sharp to me, practically brand new. The only reason it looks washed out in a couple of the photos is that the camera shutter interacts with the vertical refresh causing that banding.The other points are valid, however for the sort of stuff these instruments are typically used for (1970s-80s microprocessor based hardware) the sample rate is adequate.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 06:01:48 pm
content: Sigrok.org is a collaborative effort to create a suite of software that supports a wide variety of both legacy hardware and newer devices that includes very inexpensive programmable logic dev boards. (Some are really really inexpensive, as little as $6)As stated above, for many people they are not enough in terms of power and options.There are affordable newer devices that are faster and supported by both their own manufacturers (such as zeroplus) and Sigrok.Some of the LAs listed there are a good middle ground, and I suspect really good buys.As far as the probes, its such a pain using test clips for anything that involves them staying there for any length of time because they are so easy to dislodge.better if you built a connector for testing right in to your device from the beginning, one that was easy to make a plug from your LA to go right to- if possible.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2018, 08:47:56 pm
content: So I decided to pass on the ones I was watching in order to do more research. I found a Tek TLA715 that the seller wants $600 OBO for...apparently he installed WinXP Pro on it. I sent a question to inquire as to whether any probes are included at that price...

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2018, 12:27:44 am
content: Looks like I may be able to talk him into a packaged deal with the mainframe + 2 x TLA7N4 modules and the requisite probes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2018, 04:35:12 am
content: I'm not familiar with that series, but $600 seems like a lot of money unless you really have a specific need for such a unit. A big logic analyzer is pretty esoteric gear these days, they have uses but not many people really need one.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2018, 05:33:10 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 10, 2018, 04:35:12 amThis one is still fairly small and has it's own screen, unlike the larger 721 mainframe which is huge and requires an external screen and stuff.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 12:33:35 am
content: I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the 715. I ended up being able to make a pretty good package deal with the seller. The 721 is too big for my needs.

author: Daxxin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:59:47 pm
content: just for info ..what the difference when appear ex. label "DATA all" or visible DATA 0 , DATA 1 etc.. in waveform mode ?why shown in different way the first look like group how to configure if ever is a group all lines in one ?