Sharing some project planning phase: A (digital) ELECTRO-MECHANICAL  Network - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 06:15:41 am
content: (Inspired by coppercone2's thread, on various 3-D arrays, pls see '...Space-Time Simulation Network, (eevblog Technical Chat section).Some 'niche' applications benefit when alternate solutions are applied, as, for example: a data transfer network having sensors, and some digital 'logic', but also immersed in harsh conditions...like a volcano interior...At any rate, a fairly simple process, designing interconnecting path 'switches' allows for a series string network of (separate) stations, each individually accessable. The concept has each station in one of two modes: An active or controlled (rotary) output, or, a mode 'transparent' where some mechanical signal set is merely let 'through' to drive a same-format set (of rotary signal shafts).So, one of those 'rotary signals' is either used as 'data', of sorts, or can be used to do 'work' as CW and CCW rotations (CCW = counter clockwise).In this (current) plan, for the network construction project, there are 3 separate parallel signals, called simply 'A', 'B', and 'C'.The plan theory of operation, resembles 'Leap Frog' actions where, for example, a first signal, 'SEL', or 'SELECT' enables a next use of the 'A' column, then a second signal, 'A' enables column 'B', and that X shaped 'leap frog' crosses and re-crosses, between the two columns, progressing (upwards direction on paper diagram). Meanwhile, signal column 'C' outputs get switched, along with 'B' column. This is why the passively switched signals in 'C' are termed as 'CLIENT' function signals. A Client signal, or rotary 'shaft' output would be doing any actual work, such as winding up (or down, release) of a string winding bobbin.PICT illustrates, the approximate type of 'Worm Gear' type useful as mechanical 'outputs', with position 'holding' power when any (rotary) forces have stopped.Plans include a series connected string of, perhaps 8 such stations, featuring 8 separate, individually accessable shaft outputs, each considered a digital 'zero or one's resolved number.Pict showing small electric DC PM motor, driving a nylon worm gear. (Example from toy having reciprocal CCW-CW movements).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 06:35:49 am
content: Here is a second example PICT, included is the small PC board and custom micro-processor under a 'blob'.With larger mechanical networks, there might be several sub-system controller IC's. This picture also conveys approximate view and size, of ONE mechanical station, of 8, in one version. Then, of course, there can be 8 rows, for a 2-D network (8 by 8,)and a possible 3-D configuration having (8 by 8 by, if the 2-D arrays are repeated 8 times...Now, so that is 512 individually accessable, (or addressable), but motor total count being 64...BUT, each string gets 4 motors, not one.So, that's 256, actual, motors, when multiplied out.You can appreciate, how such networks get impractical, past a point. A (5 by 5 by 5) network has much less shear bulk, but even a 5 X 5 X 5 network, gets big enough to demand special approaches. The concept here, is to use many, many plastic -printed parts, gears and rubber wheels, while reducing motor count requirements.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 10:59:36 pm
content: So I'm treading on 'failure ground' a bit: but a lot accomplished, and better defined the problem, when 3-D ARRAYS component counts skyrocket...The best, is ability to skip some number of motors, then creating systems, mainly looks like strings of variable length, (station count) and requiring 4 motors, usually small DC PM toy size motors.Check out the waveform diagram, a processor outputcauses rotary 'transfer' from (actual) motor, which can be either direction, CW or CCW.A 3.3 V system or 5 V system could do the switch move actions.Interesting, the 'A' signal shown, acts ahead, causing the stage '2' ahead to position that switch stage, actually. The set-up means that the 'A' signal travels into the following path switch, and emerges as a 'local' signal. That's what acts, then, to Select, the stage 2 ahead of present.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 11:08:35 pm
content: Please see picture, features one 'stage' as a 3 pole path switch, for rotation signalling.By putting a brief CW or clockwise rotation of 200 milliSec. the path is changed, into 'local'.That will mean, using a term 'JOB' for example in a stage 5, then an output can be labeled 'JOB5'.That output, on column 'C', is grouped with col B as both are Col B type signals.By omitting that motor, shown on left side, the rotary input that positions the SWITCH itself can be just another rotary input, from previous stage, usually.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 11:13:35 pm
content: Here is a fun application, those turn over tags, are similar to the old memory error latching flags.Here, that's a 7 by 7 array, where you control each flag, along a horiz line row.So, you have 4 motors per row, that in itself would need 28 motors !Shown is a crude attempt to draw a '2' on that 7 x 7 dot matrix.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 10:06:51 pm
content: Presented as a series of 4 steps, the switch in this picture is shown 'SELECTED', then having 3 'local' access to outputs.First step, the 'C' colum Local Output is activated: THE JOB (rotary) output can be used - stopped - reversed - ....whatever, and for however long needed.Secondly then, job done, the 'A' colum is used. OR, 'A' is separate, allowing simultaneous activity, in this case.Note that control action constantly does this alternating left-right-left ordering of signal paths. In that context, both 'B', and 'C' columns are 'right side'.This second step, 'A' rotation signal positions the next switch. It is called 'SEL' due to action, CW rotatesto SELECT the following stage. A '4th' BUS signal, this 'SEL' does NOT pass through, stage to stage but rather the signal is built, at each stage. The original signal is transferred by way of the BUS.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 10:37:24 pm
content: Notice in this picture, that the next stage, Stage 6, is selected (into Local mode) and ready to go. The 'B' column signal is highlighted in green, showing a kind of 'un-select'; the 'A' layer being, also, split-ganged and can be reset, separate from 'B' or 'C' layer segments.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2021, 12:34:52 am
content: Here is a view of a conceptual path switch: It has three separate levels on that toggle set.Left side, for input is the dark blue wheel, up top.Next, you can see two (yellow highlighted) wheels, as the other two inputs. So... all three levels gang together, at least when pushed clockwise, as a little tab on the 'A' wheel is what pushes the other two wheels, into 'Selected' position (CW rotation).Coming the other way, the 'A' layer switch gets pushed back (CCW) independently. (Just a simple tab that only pushes when moving 'A' toggle CW.)Not shown is the toggle position setting, a small gear with post and toggle lever...simple really, nylon type small gears etc.These multiple parallel path switches have potential, for chained contact, giving multiples, but not shown here. This 'toggle' platform is moved by signal from the 'A' column, usually. See other previous diagrams, 'A' column Local output...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2021, 08:33:27 pm
content: Here is a picture, showing that '4th' step in the process, where this is the clean-up, or finish, by clearing the local mode. A semi-trick, a (rotary) tap is taken, off the stage 'CHAIN' output - this one is not used, until after stage has finished.So, an extra gear take-off receives the 'A' signal rotation, that is always CW (clockwise), normally.You just have invert that to CCW for pushing switch 5 closed. That is, the segments or layers for switching 'B' column, and 'C' column.Doing the stage switching this way, makes for nice speed and keeps the size vs time needed in a linear relation. Something like a 32 stage line-up is a goal, while still using 4 motors, at the line-up start.The 'A' column is responsible for starting, or SELECTING next stage. 'B' column is the STOP signal, causing transparent chain mode. 'C' column is yellow, as can be either state, '1' or '0'.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2021, 08:42:54 pm
content: The timing can be a little confusing, due to being pipelined signals. Interesting: the stage 5, as an example, will first SELECT stage 6, but no effect yet.Next, both 'B' and 'C' can be active, because they are separate. Of course, ultimately those 2 rotary pulses came from the 'B' and the 'C' PM electric motor pulses, perhaps approx. 200 milli-seconds duration.But the waveforms show a quite simple and speedy access through the network, and LINEAR !!!Looking like twice as many little stages would involve twice as much time...to access everything...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2021, 08:34:16 pm
content: Some practical observations:Accumulated friction probably will limit the number of series connected units: A string with 30 stages would be efficient, using 4 motors to turn the 30 (virtual rotating motor) addressable outputs.Of course, attempting to gain such efficiency does not work, for the other 2 axis, lacking yet another scheme, things (component count) blow up fast, for component counts. The assumption being, that somewhat, a high component count is tolerable, when using re-cycled plastic 'line source' material, doing 3-D printing. It is the actual DC PM motors that have 'exotic' construction materials, ceramic magnets and other special metals used to make typical toy sized motors.A 'few' actual motors is OK, but a motor count approaching 48, that's also going to involve driver electronics, say: 8 motor driver channels per driver PC board, that would require 6 PC boards, with processor control, and medium power output transistors (typical 800 mA motor current, each).The picture shows some options, for when outputs needed are moderate, such as a five or six output string. For a 7 output string, only 2 stages are actually needed. PLUS, not discussed in depth, the first stage has its own dedicated motor, for switching all three ('A', 'B' and 'C' columns), and no 'gang-split' so all three rotary signals are simply switched together, as there is no conflict, of having a signal turn off its own path switch.After a system has a few stages, it starts to be operated more uniform, but the last stage has to be handled a bit different.You can surmise: of the six signals being chained, down the serial lines (lines meaning connected rotary paths- analogous to electric wire lines),Of the six BUS lines, the 'A' column, local, is for enable SELECT.The 'B' column, local, is for CANCEL local mode on 'A'.The 'C' column, local, is you active stage output, (or 'Client').Then, also, are the 3 chain outputs, for maintaining the three transmission paths. In other words, the chain signals simply allow transfer stage to stage, (along non-selected stations, transparent or not affecting any components, in current stages as (rotary) signal progresses.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 12:09:29 am
content: Things are starting to look good, at least the logic for switching down the line of stations, on the mechanical signal network (digital write-only BUS).As picture shows, the timing of 200 mSec. motor pulses (SEL1, 'A', 'B', and 'C' connection columns), is simple. Each movement impulse can be longer, and can even switch polarity, CCW rotation followed by 1 second CW rotation, for example.Highlighted is the Stage 4 (rotary) output, simply shown in this case, as a 200 mSec. CW or Clockwise movement, into the user's load or work to do.It's a challenge, working out the pipelined series of signals, as there are 3 separate stages being accessed, as including the current stage being output.Each new stage adds NO additional addressing requirement, a very helpful situation.The logic utilizes an early enable, to next stage, tapped by a simple take-off wheel, to clear all switches in current stage.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2021, 09:49:26 pm
content: Having fleshed out a scheme for getting mechanical 'data' in rotary form, CCW or CW representing data '0' or data '1', here is shown how to read, remotely, from the 'mechanical' network:See in the picture, a signal to read a switch position is shown, in normally closed position, very similar to a single pole (electric) relay. The yellow colored piece will toggle, causing selection of either input wheel. Shown pushed to the right, this moving toggle piece contacts the (blue colored) wheel for CCW data result: that is a binary '0' representation.The idea is to interrogate the 'toggle' position and send that back towards the home base. That contains the processor, for motor control, and the 4 small motors in the base unit. So, accessing the last in a string of, say 30 stations, along the series line, and allowing a local switch there to influence the rotary direction, a base unit can recieve the information, of which position the mechanical toggle is resting.In position shown, a '1' sent to interrogate, will return a '0', implying the position of the sensor switch is 'N.C.' or 'normal closed or un-active'.As an alternate, suppose that (yellow colored) toggle is contacting the other wheel set:Then, the rotation direction of the signal returned will be CW (clockwise).Each of how ever many remote switches are used will share that same 'rotary' return signal path, the current active stage being determined by which stage gets that interrogating 'clock', as it were.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2021, 09:59:39 pm
content: (Sorry, this post has the close-up diagram, while last post has the network view).In the network, shown is stage 31, as an example.As seen, an 'interrogation' pulse, (simple rotation, for 200 mSec.), where that pulse gets conducted down the network string of stations and the sensor switch converts that, according to actual switch position.As a, perhaps, bizzare example, this could be a mechanical network monitoring a hatch or other deep interior feature, in a nuclear core reactor. OR: perhaps an explosive hazard area, in a factory, where no electric devices can be used. This way, some simple, but crucial data points can be monitored, in a very computer-like manner.Not described, are how a base unit would convert such rotary signal, CCW or CW, back to conventional digital (electrical!), but somewhat easy to do that.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 06:33:11 am
content: It's a TON of work, laying out parts, and designing.But a quick couple minutes to assemble. In principal, two BUS signals, A and B, act on each other.The 'B' signal column is 'GO to Ready',while 'A' signals: 'STOP Ready state'.A general traffic on the BUS is usually A, B, or C and picture shows how each shaft is 'logically' a chain-in chain-out. A fourth signal, shaft, handles local control (select).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 06:39:30 am
content: The diagram shows a portion, in this case the yellow shaded wheels are pulleys, for bands. In the center, the B pulley is 1 1/2 inch DIA. and with belt drive from 3/4 inch pulley.If you care for the detail, the 'A' output is what will drive that large pulley, for the B switch toggle.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 04:06:03 am
content: only thing I would add for construction is if you built it from a two part shell, planing the interface between the two parts flat might offer more repeatable and stable mating.. I mean on the bottom where the two boards meet, if its not done already. I think when its cut smooth it will work better then a saw cut surface.. from experience when I was joining multiple boards together to make cheap table covers I was doing this, and the side walls too, to ensure everything is super square

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 12:43:59 am
content: Yes, Coppertone2:I've just gotten enough done on the enclosure, that's always easier doing parallel (plates), as you said...Maybe doesn't look like much, but the 'brick /lunchbox' proto for a mechanical-addressed station helps deal with the relatively simple interference issues.For example, each 'B' column receives a 'SELECT', which places that station into 'READY' mode (or SELECT mode).For that SELECT signal, coming as an input, it is best handled, in or near the other input layer components. In this case, the receiver pulley is placed near to other inputs.For another case, taking the column 'A' signal, from the 'output' plane, dictates placement, of a receiver pulley, near other outputs.Notice the basic BUS seen, consists of 3 mechanical rotary signals, passing into and through each station (box). The fourth BUS signal, is used locally, for setting each station 'RELAY' into Ready status.Not obvious in picture, but this 'footprint' maintains position, while BUS passes from module to module without offsets.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 01:50:46 am
content: It's a wacky solution, looking for a wacky problem, but...Consider the HIGH VOLTAGE CAGE structure, needed to keep 'pesky humans' from trouble (accidentally contacting the 150 kV Southern Pike Line.)This gajget made from wood or plastic could do a few ,(rotary) mechanical actuations, free of metal conductors.But, of course, this 4-shaft BUS system might be better replaced with... simply 4 shafts. And for larger network (strings), some solutions gain too much simple friction, too fast:. But, it's a fun concept, an infinite network, using a 'NEXT ITEM' type access.A simple 8 way binary system would have 4 shafts, 3 for the binary address bits, plus a shaft acting as 'clock'. The actual decode done, classic style, with 3 shafts, bits 0, 1, and 2.Looking back at diagram, the station box pulls apart, back face (inputs) and front face (outputs), that way any shaft couplings etc can come free, as one plate is loosened.Even more detail: inside is half-way wall, for terminating shafts. Input shafts have terminating, as a bearing support, at the half-wall. Output shafts similar,where half-wall supports shaft ends, while other ends exit the station housing.Assembly / troubleshooting is aided, by having easy to dis-assemble modules. Plus, metal screws or other metal fasteners should be avoided, for best design.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 11:18:47 pm
content: ...Trying for a phrase: Best could come up with, regarding 'bloated designs' (and playing off the MEMS acronym for 'Micro - Electro - Mechanical' devices.)How about, for this 'Mechanical Logic Contraption':...'GROSSLY Oversize Electro - Mechanical', or'GEMs'.Seriously, I discovered my (wood working) skills need updates: Much of that 'RELAY' box, pictured recently, is accurate, ONLY, to +/- 1/8 inch ...wow!But that's boxwood, so it's easy to sand the soft wood.Came across an apt quote, via old LIFE Magazine article, on DISNEYLAND:"Intricate, hokey, hugely expensive assemblage...""...embodied the businesslike use of fantasy, theno-nonsense approach to nonsense."That's gonna do, for now.ENJOY YOUR HOLIDAY !

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2021, 03:21:56 am
content: I wanted to take time to describe my own take, on developing prototypes.Believe it, or not, that's my BABY, there, figuritively.(See picture). I'm thinking: "Any customer, of my product, is going to notice, any dirty fingerprints, on that unfinished wood box".So that's one concern. Inventers are, sometimes, a strange breed...You aren't 'working' for a living, no cash usually coming in today. That can look a fool's pursuit.REWARDING, heh yeah...maybe tomorrow.You can't be expecting quick rewards, or you lose sight. But it can be a very unpleasant journey.The problem area, with prototypes, is you can be faced with a wide open, BLANK page, and better get busy. Many folks balk at this point (ha! Wimps).But in reality, not so bleak as there are some set patterns of action that some creative people utilize.Plus, pay attention to an opposite effect. Say, you've got a new dress design. Using existing designs, think of the burden, of review all those (thousands) of previous dress designs. In that dynamic, you are often better off ignoring everything else, and just get (your) design down, in paper, first. THEN, you enter the 'prior art' review phase. (NO LEGAL ADVICE, just opinion).For dealing with novel design, my approach often starts with a goal, first prototype model, often precedes most functional goals. It's a packaging and 'fit and use' ergonomic consideration.Of course, this describes prototyping mechanics and with 'educational' market aspects, so the package appearance takes precedence.The first (couple of) models, I let things get slightly 'wild', meaning that some bold or unusual feature might be emphasized. For example, after considering one particular model, requiring 4 foot tall cabinet, I went bold: exaggerating that cabinet, to 7 feet height.Now, that's bold, but some restraint needed too!I often don't strictly require the whole 100 % of functions to be working, until 3rd prototype model is begun.My main point here is that it doesn't add that much to sort-of 'decorate' the dang thing: In this case, I wanted that clear wooden box to get a nice varnish, or oil rub finish. Can't hurt, and makes your new 'baby' purty to look at...Meanwhile, maybe you can't visualize the whole of it, mechanically especially. You give it your best shot, and add some cosmetically pleasing appearance. It can be an attitude changing approach.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2021, 03:56:40 am
content: Referring to previous photo, for sealing the wood case I like a product, WATCO DANISH OIL, a rub on oil finish. I mean, why not get your prototype cabinet looking good, at a stage where things are starting to mostly fit together and work."DON'T BE A 'WOOD BUTCHER' as my 9th grade Wood Shop teacher would say. (lol).By the third prototype box build I generally expect most of the nagging problems to be solved. For mechanical items it often comes down to a good 3-D perception, whether it's visual, or simply precedes any viable looking model. As you may purcieve, I put maybe more emphasis on 'looks' but that's an eye towards customer engagement. That's actually a HUGE vital aspect, if the effort is to create trade-worthy market products.Sometimes, a big / major error occurs. That's OK, part of this business cycle. For example: suppose a co-worker points out: "...your signal output labels are totally backwards, on the bottom half..."Now, perhaps a decision point: Remember the prototype isn't simply a 'wooden box': that's your investment, there, represents all those hours, time spent searching hardware store shelves, etc etc.You have a management question: One approach is to be consistent and plan for at least part of (that 3rd proto model) to be functional and ready for some quality worthy testing, big time.Otherwise, you have to consider 'abandoning' that 3rd prototype model, and endure another round of build. Yes, I guess it's at this point that things can get serious. Every inventor / innovator has this kind of story...well almost all of us..."I don't like inventing, but the inventing likes me.."(Borrowed from song lyrics: "I don't like THE DRUGS but the drugs like me".Inventor reading this? Even if technically off-base, the information here is meant to encourage creative exploration, in engineering, and present some methods in approaching novelty in product development.Thanks.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 12:59:51 am
content: By way of explanation, the attached picture shows, partially, the organization of 'internal compartments.To simplify, there are two main rectangular compartments or volumes. That is, the interior division, depicted by the half-wall in the picture, is, first, to make the 'A' and the 'C' individual switch areas.Then, interior to those, further divided (not shown here) are two volumes or 'compartments' where function is split: one compartment handles inputs, to the 3PDT switch, while the other is for Output components. It's all fairly simple, but with some demanding attention, for avoiding basic interferences, 3-D wise.Because the switch module involves this 4 layer stack of compartments, the depth available for components is fairly tight, (using 4 inch depth, in present prototype.)Perhaps too much detail info here, but the 'C' portion of the assembly sits behind the other ('A'), and literally, the shafts associated with 'A' had to 'poke through' the volume assigned to the 'C' toggle portion. That's OK, as clearances are carefully kept, between the two extra shafts, and the toggle lever (of 'C' ).It's messy, but easy to assemble.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 01:14:36 am
content: Here is photo depicting an antenna modifying 'tuning' or impedance switching, as MEMS application. (That's Micro-Electro-Mechanical device).For special switching, roof-top or other settings, including in presence of high voltages, the Mechanical Network, discussed here, could be utilized, at the four switch points, shown in the example.Of course, would be easier, to just run 4 shafts with no complicated 'network node boxes'. A better example might be, if there are several such antennas, needing switches, say, spread out over a roof-top. Then, a network accessed mechanically, by four 'encoded' shafts, could replace a system, say four antennas, each needing 4 switch boxes. So that reduces the 'control' shafts from 16 original.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 01:24:45 am
content: Picture shows prototype enclosure, the 3PDT mechanical switch box, in comparison with what half-sized unit would look like. (That's a standard wall box, for indoor light switch).By designing / building at that scale, volume goes down, by a factor of 8. Much of the switch box could be done different: after all, it's really just a small rotary transmission. It's the LOGICAL use here, that is central to operating as a networked string of devices.Current design uses rubber wheels, for rotary contact, but a gear to gear arrangement probably has lower total friction. Friction is a critical factor, when attempting to operate a string of, say, 40 devices (3PDT Switches).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 01:30:26 am
content: Here is picture, you can see, where two metal screws are:. It's possible to use nylon fasteners, for in-service use (prototype has some shortcuts).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2021, 05:55:09 pm
content: Getting pretty exciting, watching my prototype switch box get assembled, for first time!This 3PDT Mechanical Switch (rotary activated transmission really) is approx 2 X sized, and main 'test' involves that moving piece: the toggle lever.See in photo, the little screwdriver on top the box indicates the 'toggle lever'. These cut-out ports you see are for access in assembly and visual confirmation. That toggle lever arm might be required to be a different length, or need a wider swing.But the box construction itself ends up fairly aligned, as those various shafts, (3 parts, for channels 'A', 'B', and 'C') look aligned, decent. We are talking very low accuracy, perhaps +/- 1 mm in critical parts...The upper shafts, those don't actually exit the box, as those are stationary axels for each of the 3 SPDT arrangements. (You only see 2, because the 'C' channel switch subsection is behind the other two, and so it shares the upper stationary shaft, (with 'A' portion).Mainly, I'm interested in debug the toggle lever sizing(in photo, that toggle lever moving part is just a scrap piece, for confirming things fit...so far.I've now gotten rubbed oil finish, outside, some extra glue, in loose spots, and some nice, yellow highlight paint, on the sides. Generally, the 'face' in the photo, is considered the output plate:3 outputs are the 'BUS CHAIN'1 output is 'local BUS control...i.e SELECT to next boxand 1 output will be the actual, locally available' CLIENT' signal, for doing custom things, such aswinding or un-winding a bobbin, for simulating anode, in a serial string of (these) boxes.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2021, 05:58:15 pm
content: Here is another view, of the 3PDT switch.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2021, 06:06:15 pm
content: ...maybe hard to see, in there, without contrasting color, but the mock-up 'toggle lever' is mounted on the right side stationary 'axel' wooden dowel rod. The toggle shown with downward tip 'selecting' the left side, although incomplete as it's going to actually be (rubber) wheel to wheel contact, selecting either the left or the right side (for output from the switch box).Generally, in the serial string network, four output shafts connect, on down the line, to each next 3PDT switch box. That's considered 'transparent' state, where the local output is not controlled.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 12:15:23 am
content: The friction scaling problem seems frustrating, to get the best alignment you would need to get a fly cut or better plate, drill holes with a jig borer, temper and ground, then size the holes properly with a jig grinder and use machine pins for the elements, using thermal fitting to seat components.I am just posting because I am kind of wondering what it would cost to make this design in a high precision variant. It also seems that its something you can get partially manufactured in a gear-box shop, or a spline shop, there are still manufacturers of precision scientific grade gear-boxes BTW. It would be a non standard custom job.. but I was kind of wondering what the cost would be. I know thats not your objective but I find it interesting to think about how it would perform if you had this going with moly-d on precision ground gears. I think this construction would ultimately give the lowest friction that can think of with my limited knowledge of gears.Here is a 3d-printed 11 million to 1 gearbox someone made (crazy amount of slop, but it does function!)Those videos might help you size up your friction problem more accurately, if it does exist, since those are 'cheap' designs.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 06:55:04 pm
content: Thanks for thoughts, contributing to the viability of some components, in even harsher conditions, as MOLY STEEL has potential. Hypothetical there, has sometimes been the 'SOLAR ATMOSPHERE PROBE", (sounds comical, but that sort of science involves 'skimming' close to SUN, briefly.)I'll have to think about your post, Coppercone2. I guess a 'jig' has a pattern and a 'follower' pin, for guiding a nearby attached cutter. I want a Dremel tool with that...As to developers / fabricators cost:Latest progress on proto box involved 3 days, total about 16 hours, and so at nominal $20 per hour that's a labor cost (equivalent) maybe of $ 320. However, most formal employment, you maybe need to double that, covering (health insurance) the myriad of formal business expense.That's more closer to $ 600, and only a moderate gain in the prototype development. (Any reader wants to send me that... I can spend even more than $ 600... maybe just for decent jig...)I estimated, 12 of those hours spent on serious machine shop tasks: the rest of that time, 4 hours on just 'dinking' with things: That means staring and scribbling notes, and making tiny changes in the fit and friction, on that prototype model components.(Also involves minor nasty 'ice pick' stab wound, to finger tip...)Now, (thanks again coppertone2), a MOLY-D version has to be adding substantial materials cost.Two mechanical issues, yet to be tested / addressed involve:1.). The toggle lever movement needs to have a slipclutch type effect, at the end of travel just toguarantee full travel, (but maybe not stall at tthat completion).2.). See photo diagram: pulleys need to be operatedby either of two torques, with the other pulleynot adversely affected. In simple view, turningone pulley will cause the other to turn, and thiswill also put torque 'backards' into the otherdriver pulley (3/4 inch dia. here).I need to observe, before tackling that, asmy mechanical expertise is not 'expert'.By the way, eevblog hosts a great video,Dan Gelbert discusses prototypes, in machine shop.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 08:10:19 pm
content: yeah your design has alot of unique challenges over a gear box, that was just my first idea of a starting point. I never even made a gear before, the best I could do is resin print one. Interesting to read that though. Maybe I can make a brass one on my proxxon mill (I do have a kind of indexer), but it would require alot of learning. I know gears are very difficult to master.And of course doing wax prints and casting gears is an option to make them metal cheap. I would think zinc cast would be easy, brass would be best. Zinc is stronger then aluminum and I think melts at a lower temp, if you get the right formulation, and it does not need you to engage in anything especially hazardous like molten brass (that is a big step for me). I think it might be possible to pour a very good zinc casting.. but its only conjecture

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:02:15 pm
content: Here is, a nice picture, (from inventor perspective), showing the so-called 'BRIDGE' drive arrangement:The toggle lever is shown, left position in this view, where that is the 'selected' state. The foreground input shaft has that little 3/4 inch mock-up pulley driver wheel, for that blue rubber band, the band going up, to the pivot axis. The bridge is intended for bringing the input rotation, ultimately, up, over, and back down to the 'tip wheel', that is the moving part for output.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:15:46 pm
content: ...Now, this second picture shows, look for continuation of the input shaft, (thru the half-wall, look towards up, and left, for the OUTPUT shaft, continues that shaft direction).That's the output shaft, and it's almost as if the input could just be going straight through the switch box...BUT what happens is the rotation is transferred up, over and back down, and for the non-selected case, will exit out the OUTPUT FACE as if continuous.That's the 'data transparent' mode.Of course, my modeling abilities not so stellar; in this project I tried using heavy heavy paper (tablet backing) but it is so difficult to cut using Xacto knife, I'm going back to just saw cutting my boxwood, for 3D mock-up.As to why fuss over aligning the shafts, to some yet-nonexisting NETWORK rules, where input and output align, I figure why leave that major design feature out...heck, that's a ton of work to have to modify later.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:28:48 pm
content: ...Those last couple posts help view one section, of the three section 3PDT switch, generally using 3/4 inch pulleys for driving the band. The arrangement first acts to bring the input rotation into alignment with the toggle arm PIVOT axis: that way the toggle arm can swing the 20 degrees or so, between stops, without causing tension changes, in that drive band.In the photos, the left is 'SELECT' and swung to the right is the un-selected or transparent switch position.That input shaft also must be located going 'through' the other main section, keeping clearance from any interference. That issue is why this 'working mock-up' is valuable, as a sort-of 3D design aid.Anyone have suggestions, PC software for modeling to find such interfere spots ?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 02:13:00 am
content: NOW, taking a self-critical viewpoint:Getting this '4 signal BUS' to work is nice project milestone, but also establishes challenge: To make that series network to function with less.To that end, consider a 3 shaft SERIES BUS:You would 'encode' one of 4 (outputs), using two shafts, plus a needed clock (mechanical shaft). The two 'addressing bits', using CW for '1', or CCW (counter clockwise rotation, to a stop), for positioning a multiple selection switch, then pulse the mechanical 'clock' line, producing (rotary) output, on the one of four.This won't work, in extension, as each new access, further down the series string of switch box stations will require yet more and more 'bulk' of switching activity. Or, say, it can work but ridiculously burdened.Each access, let's say you are at station 7; now to control and access the next, station 8, you need station 7 multiple times, for twirling those 3 inputs to station 8. But for that, you have to revisit station 6, multiple times, and for that you need station 5,...and for that...station 4, etc, etc etc.Gets to be a factorial number, of sorts, and the result is a (very) non-linear pile-up of required access/outputs, in the rotary encoded digital switching scheme!In current design ( 4 shafts total travel down the network line), a station count, like 30, is going to mean TWICE as many pulses issued by base control, VS having 15 stations, for example.I also, here POSTING A PICTURE, OF A BUG, as I have no picture of CAT.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2021, 03:47:33 pm
content: Maybe providing 'too much detail' but trying to write towards beginners, and plus that's actual kind of my own level of expertise; maybe similar to a 'diary'.I did work in a physics / engineering R & D situation, doing electronics development and testing, in development of high vacume, high voltage electron beam 'accelerator'. For a medical related application.They insisted on every engineer keeping entries in a 'department LOG BOOK'; keeping track of project details. Plus, that was a 'shoestring' budget. I got to view, first-hand, the dynamic of a little tiny 'shop', about 7 folks.We had the 'old guys': a couple doctors investors in the venture. (They wanted to come 'tinker' with their Shakey hands.). We had, luckily, 'Hans', a mechanical genius with German accent so thick... For whatever reason, seems like the Swiss / German region has been a real center, for mechanical contraptions.Now, perhaps India producing innovation...Picture showing my pivoting 'switch lever', right now I am 'adjusting' that 'mock-up' component, for best interface, with the two receiver wheels that are the switch 'poles'. This pass, adjusting the cardboard piece for shortening (radius) of travel, from 2 1/4 down to 2.0 inches, pivot to 'tip wheel's.Mechanical and assembly problems include:1). Perhaps use of 'oil finish' causes problems withglue strength:. I try not to put oil finish near glueareas (inside switch box).2). Using wood dowels (1/8 inch), as 'axels' is kindalame, but works without massive friction.3.). Assembly issues must be included, in thepackaging:. a consideration way way way outsidemy background, if you consider solely, an EEdegree, with mainly software experience (onpaper).But, innovation is a basic way of life, living in SF bayarea, and (these sorts of technology centers)attract all kinds of new developments.One university fellow noted: Something like oneout of every nine start-ups 'might' suceed.That's 11 percent.Other mechanical related issues involve needing simple one-way drive wheels, that don't turn when pushed 'backwards', with actual implementation using simple features, in plastic pulley wheel(s).PLUS, completion (of useable 3PDT switch), creates easy path, for other, ideas to follow (this).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 05:46:55 am
content: Here is some more progress: In the photo the mock-up components show the main 'cross', or 'X', of signals. The 'A' output acts to reset the 'B' segment. The 'B' (chain) output acts to reset 'A' segment.The diagram / photo helps for visualizing and avoiding interfering parts.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 05:55:13 am
content: This next photo also shows 'X' shaped control paths, within the 3PDT switch box.Many details of (this) partial paper test build were obsolete before construction finished...It's tons of work, thankless, but...can't see it THAT way.The basic idea, is a driver pulley at 3/4 inch diameter, going via band, to drive a 1 1/2 inch pulley, attached to the pivoting lever arm. The lever arm has the 'tip wheel' for driving one or the other, of output wheel pair.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 06:51:49 pm
content: You can see the (picture) organization, shown back to front, is 'C' (green toggle bracket in back quadrant).In front, is 'A', the red components, and 'B', the yellow components (shown on left-hand side of photo).Each 'switch' section takes up a quadrant of the whole box.Each individual of the 4 sections has a compartment, so the full box has, from back to front, 'C' inputs, 'C' outputs, 'A' inputs, 'A' outputs, each taking roughly equal depth (1 inch each, out of 4 total).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 06:58:21 pm
content: Viewing photo, straight down, is seen the 'half-wall' that divides and supports the (front) 'A' compartment. (Other 2 partial walls omitted in this photo ).The red toggle bracket is seen (back rt corner) must straddle the half-wall as it acts as a bridge: rotary signal goes up, over, and back down, to the movable TIP Wheel.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 09:28:54 pm
content: the rubber bands are a nice way to transfer energy in a prototype because its torque limiting, so you cannot hurt yourself too bad. A prototype is usually a good place to hurt yourself because you are working with measuring exposed mechanical systems most likely.. so its a good way to go about things. It would suck to get a pinky crushed in some gear chain. Just watch out for them snapping and nailing you in the eye.. you can glue them together with super glue to make sure they are never super taught (custom size), so even if they are less reliable because of the glue joint, they should not have alot of force when they break. *Are those broccoli bands btw?*I am just saying this because it looks like something you might show to common people because its interesting and mechanically impressive. If it works then it would be a success at a science fair etc.I kind of feel like your mechanical intuition is like.. much greater.. then most people on the forum. I never really built mechanical objects that are this complex/dynamic (moving parts are hard). I tried to build like a micro chop saw that I can put a dremel flex shaft on and lets just say that 2 days later I decided to buy a proxxon lol. Nothing came together quite right and it turned out to be a enormous amount of work designing a seemingly simple pivot. I could probobly do it now after a few years of watching people work on youtube. Also the hole alignment and layout is tricky..but my mistake was also not making a cardboard prototype.. i went strait for the aluminum pieces

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 03:18:30 am
content: The picture, reminds me of a 'square Porcupine' but those fragile wood dowels are a pain to replace, and so not too good idea, to locate strewn across. .Boss would say " if gonna have vulnerable, at least minimize that."So, a better footprint, is three pairs, each of A, B,C channels. Channel 'A' local is only used inside, so that is the short stub output.Not so bad, a chain of 2 BUS signals, plus a local control, gets you access, albeit minimal.And so, with another BUS signal, (i.e. channel 'C'), basically along for the ride; that rotary channel can be used for any misc general output.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 05:11:49 pm
content: So it's almost like a 'cartoon caracature' of a machine design...dictated by a Software expert, fabricated by an artist - satirist...(sigh).Looking HOKEY...very HOKEY!But...next version gets rid of some complaints (the footprint), gets even larger, more small parts to fab (3/4 inch pulleys, need, like, 50 of them.And YES, coppercone2, THOSE are 'brocoli' bands; I left my professional rubber bands (in my other car).The next version puts the 3 switch segments, 'A', 'B', and 'C', in a 'stacked' arrangement, all sizes being equal and uniform, across the three.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 09:43:55 pm
content: Well the cartoon prevents you from making a large heavy expensive time consuming mechanical piece only to be foiled by some kind of clearance issue...Do you have a 3d printer or lathe to make pulleys with? if not..You can cut wood disks out with a hole saw quickly, I would try to wedge them on a shaft and use a upright drill press as a wood lathe with some round files/rasps after some sanding... but you need to be good with your eyes to make 50 identical ones, there are no stops or settings doing it this way... but it should be fastish.. so long you choose the right base wood (easy cutting). I only ever did this for chamfering wood disks, I never tried to cut a groove in it.Another type of pulley suitable for a band could be made like this:1) get big piece of plexiglass or polycarbonate2) cut a bunch of disks out in two sizes, one for the area where the band runs, and one for the 'bobbin'3) center drill and stack disks on a shaft to make the right size pulley and glue together with acrylic or polycarbonate cement, so it wicks in from the side4) put it in a drill press and polish the outside of the ring using a dremel with a series of scotch brite buffs on it and then solvent-polish it with the appropriate solvent to make it glass smooth (well, at least smooth enough, really polishing further it would be ALOT of work).. if you don't want it clear on the top and bottom, just scratch it up with a medium grade scotch brite buff.. perhaps texture would even help with grip (not sure how band interface components work).But its a very.. geometric.. pulley, I am not sure if it would work well.I guess you can combine the two techniques and try to premake the geometry with flat disks then use files on it to round it out.. maybe you can even use wooden disks but the problem is, I never saw thin wood sheets that are too flat.. I expect it to bow. Don't know what the hell would happen if you try to file plexiglass on a drill press either! probobly a bad idea, but it might be doable with a dremel with a sanding drum on it if you are gentle.It will overheat and crack the plexiglass most likely, don't sand it aggressivelyI don't misuse drill press much BTW, if you do this alot you might find that the chuck falls out or something.. need to be real gentle, i recommend gently tapping on the open chuck after you are done doing this with a rubber mallet, to make sure the jacob's taper(re?)seated into the drill press, just make sure the chuck jaws are hidden when you do this.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 01:38:01 am
content: Here is photo of next phase, box number three, actually...Previous box gives model, for exact panel sizing, that's always a pain. Things like which panel overlaps the other two, etc.Each segment has 1/3 the whole, as a book shaped compartment. That's 2 inches depth, giving roughly 1 inch for inputs and 1 inch (depth) for outputs.In photo, see the 'stairstep' arrangement, 'A' outputs at the highest, of the 3.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 01:43:10 am
content: The advantage, this box layout has simple, one behind the other. By offset downward (1 1/8 inches) there can be 3 separate segments or sections, 'A', 'B', 'C, all fit within 7 inch height.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 12:48:58 pm
content: In photo, I wanted to point out, the 3 'music boxes' that are shown side-view. The stair-like arrangement puts the 'A' segment up higher, and in front.The 'C' compartment is on the (photo) left. The two horizontal panels are the 'floor' for each separate compartment: floor is for each so-called 'half-wall'.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 12:54:23 pm
content: In this photo view, is another version, of the Rotary Switch: this one, perhaps, more suitable for miniaturization. That is called a 'SLEEVE SWITCH' and involves coordinated movement, with sleeve sliding on-off, and with a flexing or shifting of the drive (cable).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2021, 02:17:17 am
content: Here is a nice, 'Christmas-y' color photo: the green compartment is like 'START' or SET on a flip/flop.The red is for clearing or 'RESET' as a processThe blue, that's for what ever the application wants, using the one dedicated output shaft ('C').That's also called the local output shaft, or 'Virtual Motor', that being addressable.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2021, 02:22:31 am
content: This photo shows, everything is non-attached, so all comes apart, by simple pulling, and wiggling a bit.The two main, interim walls, separate the 3 compartments, of the 3 Pole switch.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2021, 02:25:21 am
content: ...the color shots just add a little, to the grey on grey color scheme (of the blank wood).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2021, 08:52:34 pm
content: This photo shows more detail, how the mechanical switch 'toggles', there showing receptor wheel on left will be getting contact / rotation.The signal is 'dry switched', meaning that there is no actual rotary signal, until later with a different cycle.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2021, 08:58:20 pm
content: ...and this view, toggle seen causing contact with the receptor wheel, on right side of photo. That side is the so-called 'chain' side, having (usually) a rotary signal in and rotary signal (chain) output.The other side, of switch is the 'SELECTED' or 'ready' state.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2021, 09:05:29 pm
content: ...and a little more detail doesn't hurt:The compartment shown, is the 'C' channel, situated the lowest of the 3 segments (A,B, and C).Not shown here, but each of those rectangular compartments is further split, into INPUT, OUTPUT sub-compartments.Generally, if nothing else, this arrangement gives some structure, to work with while solving basic problems.By the way: those other shafts seen poking through, are for the other switch segments, and have to be carefully checked, for clearance.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 10:41:34 pm
content: So:. Is this, actually, A LADDER NETWORK ?? (Without realizing it).At this juncture, here are some problems, dealing with mechanical switching:Stages need self-switching to transparent mode (after current stage, or station, does some local, custom rotary output session). One method involves a 'split-ganged' layout, having left and right sides. By having right side finish, with control having moved on, to next station, a signal to clear the current left-side can be sent 'backward' from, for example, station #17 backwards to clear the left side on station #16.This way there can always be a clear path, for the chained signals (A, B, C) going through all stations #1 through and up to station #18.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 10:53:07 pm
content: ...Actually, a more efficient method, for putting each station into transparent mode, has the signal looping back, but done right there in local station (switch box).The signal to do this 'self cancel' after box has done, is simply the first signal after transparent mode has been put into place. That's going to be a 'SELECT' that is destined to pass through the following switch box, to act on the box 'twice removed' which is box #18 in the case of sending from box #16. It's a signal pipelined setup, sometimes hard to wrap mind around, as things involving timing often do.The difficult part involves how to make such action only happen once (the first time). Otherwise that extra resistance will be present for everything, and from each station, along the serial line...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 11:07:44 pm
content: Another problem area, is when mixing two different signals: it's probably necessary to prevent 'BACKFEED' of an active signal, down a path that is (only) supposed to be one-way, from the other source.There are various ways to deal with this. (In electronics that's called 'WIRED OR')One partial solution involves using helix or worm-gear drives, as they cannot be driven from reverse direction, that is that while the rotary direction can be either way, CW or CCW, that rotary 'signal' can only go one way, through a worm gear. Plus, worm gear will hold position (of toggle lever, in this case).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 11:17:37 pm
content: A CHALLENGE.So, NO, I haven't got it to work, yet, but have defined a couple problems to work on.As to why design (current) using 'toggle' commutators, when final design might require some other form: The whole package is so new enough, as to be difficult to imagine, as a whole. Then, typically, many other aspects and problems, of design can be tackled. The substitution, later, of a helix worm gear, turns out to be relatively minor, so the whole project can progress forward

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 12:02:24 am
content: ...also assessing problems with the toggling 'tip wheel' that will do selecting between one output wheel or other. Along with a detent action, is probably needed a bit of 'springy' force between the tip driver and the receptor wheel. Some use of very springy rubber (wheel) itself might be enoughAlso, the direction of the tip drive wheel rotation probably affects the toggle lever-bracket so some testing needed to determine if there is a 'disengage' force to contend with.My methodology, (perhaps a bit 'Drunken Warrior's method, lol), is to fabricate, best I can, cross fingers, try it, even with known questionable results. (Some backwards or unplanned signal paths are harmless dissapation effects. But keeping friction down is critical, when so many (10 to 30) units can be involved, in serial string.Along those line, consider a switch box having 90% efficiency, (90 % of rotary force gets through). The percent declines, going down the series network, such that after about 10 stations, the rotary signal is diminished to about 10% or less, of original rotary signal coming from a BASE control unit (with regular motors).Probably, even that is too optimistic...But, I can find out these things, with relatively minor 'workshop' fabs. I certainly would not expect the 'usual' customer, for a KIT FORM product, to go to these lengths.Mechanically speaking, I probably will get more skill, out of development, than any hypothetical customer.THOMAS EDISON, I've heard, had a WHOLE CREW to go off, and build this / build that.Makes me wonder; What stories would EDISON's lab staff have to tell ?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 06:53:35 am
content: Here's more thoughts, regarding HOW TO shut off a (rotary signal) switch, when the energy for doing that is supplied by...(You guessed it); supplied by, or sourced, by the double-pole switch itself.Imagine the moving toggle; when the toggle, in standard electric switch leaves the 'pole' contact, that energy is stopped, and same thing occurs with mechanical commutator switches; that is, the source that causes switch movement, in the first place, is no longer there. A small flywheel, perhaps, or some kind of spring, could maintain power, as it winds down; pushing the switch to complete arc of travel. By using split paths, the arrangement can maintain power, in a portion, (actually literally in the next station), and the 'turning off', or de-selection, can occur, crossways, from right side, over to go transparent mode on left side portion. The right side, in current station, has been put into transparent mode, already, and with the actual right side 'active' state actually being in the following station (confusing!).That is a situation where the 'active' status is 'smeared' a little, across a couple of stations simultaneously.A FLYWHEEL ?? Man, this sh~π's getting out of hand (lol)...What's next: ...I can't even think of anything, that this design process can't top...How about: Requirement for a FLAGMAN and two flares, for warning folks: "Warning, Mechanical Switch."...At any rate, like I said, these are interesting questions, I want to know, and PLUS, besides, there could be other projects that come up, for experimenting with Mechanical Logic options.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 06:15:11 pm
content: Some more improvements:Picture shows 'Back Face' panel, make from 'plexiglass' or similar soft-flexible, so that can hold parts aligned and for testing. As with other internal parts, the face plate has no attaching screws etc.Actually, for light weight duties, the little (1/8) wood shafts do well holding the plate steady.Red color portions, are 'A' logical segment, of the 3-part switch box. (Think 3 - Contactor mechanical positioned switch assembly).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 06:25:04 pm
content: One new part built, is the moveable toggle lever.It has a 'Tip Wheel', driven by belt from pivot area (has same axis). The tip wheel has pulley, while belt driver pulley rests or is supported by the stationary pivot shaft. For each of the 3 switches, the 'chain' input is what drives the pivot mounted, and thus the tip wheel, for selecting 1 of 2.Photo shows pivot lever or 'toggle arm', omitting the tip and drive wheels (in this partial mock-up).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 12:02:24 am
content: Arrangement for SET and RESET:In this picture, it helps to view as 'planes', where the wood panel is 'outputs' compartment. So going towards viewer's foreground, the several different planes are shown spread out, for clarity.First, see larger yellow pulley wheel, meant to match with the blue color drive pulley, seen diag down / left.That is 'SET', causing the toggle lever to move.Alternately, logically, the RED color pulley, is meant to match, with the white color wheel, diagonally right nearby.Actual 'data' being switched, or commutated, is, yet another 'plane' compartment; that's the two white colored wheels, at the more 'picture foreground' end.For orientation; the two faces, front and back, resemble a wall clock, where the clock front face is the 'outputs', and back face has some inputs, or even a 'winder'.I like to consider switch box having NORTH-SOUTH axis, from back to front (outputs). Thus, the sides, of the box, are EAST-WEST, orientation.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2022, 06:19:58 pm
content: PROBLEMS WITH SELF-SWITCHING:The switch box has a combination of generic components and some customized interconnections,(for implementing this particular network).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2022, 07:28:07 pm
content: Photo shows:It seemed pretty inconvenient, to have 3 shafts from the other switch segments, penetrating the 'C' segment volume (rectangular compartment).But, seen in upper left, both the 'A' local output (to do reset), and the 'B' input, are needed, and used right there. Extremely convenient.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2022, 07:35:47 pm
content: Photo is to show, generally, the path of that reset, to the 'C' segment of switch, going against the grain, so to speak; The reset coming from the 'A' local output takes the path usually reserved for input, as there isn't any input process. That is the other side (local). The main side is for chaining signal, input to chain output (via the toggle switch with tip wheel).This view is from front, towards the back. Altogether, there are 18 layers: 6 for each segment of the ABC 3 section contactor.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 04:57:33 pm
content: Jumping ahead, for a second: Here is some outline for a Base controller.Currently, have identified 2 key issues, details for implementing the basic path switch, or commutation switch assembly. One issue, involves mixing mechanical (rotary) signal 'data', inadvertantly causing 'backwards direction signal, into other components.Other current issue involves how to actually turn off or reset all channels in a given switch box, meanwhile the preceding boxes have all gone to 'transparent' mode, and so cannot effectively send out local controls.For controller aspects, photo showing toy 'robot dog's for wired control, where a clever switch setup helps for sending dual polarity to motors, for doing both directions, CW and CCW (that's counter-clockwise.)The toy hand controls will issue approx 3.4 volts DC of either polarity direction, to each Base motor / gear drive. For the Base controller outputs, there are 3 'chained' signals (channels 'A', 'B', 'C'), with an additional 'local' output, using 'B' to send 'Select' to next station switch box.Various other Base Station features mostly manual controls, but with plans towards eventual controller, (Arduino likely). The rotary switches seen are 2 pole, and 6 positions, for various options while testing / experimenting with series networks of switches.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 02:08:28 am
content: Those TOY DOGS, well, they provide some function examples that I could use in my projectThe motor has a two directional separator that puts any clockwise rotation to one output, in this case the dog wags tail, and barks, via small audio chip with little 1 inch speaker. The little PC board and connected motor respond to one POLARITY direction, diode isolated. The other polarity output direction, of the two cell battery pack gets isolated, mechanically, and provides the 'walking' motions of that dog.Anyhow, being more software experienced I need that kind of fairly simple TOY mechanism, for implementing actual progress, towards a working 3Pole - 2 throw switch (3PDT).(It's been couple years since I've open one, but have forgotten how that toy doggy does the separation of the two motor directions, into 2 destinations, according to motor polarity.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 09:03:50 am
content: Here is a view, I've been wanting to show: This diagram view, included, shows how there is a sort-of 'DUALITY' in the mechanical commutation switch. In the view, simplified disks pressed together act as switch, for selecting one or the other. That would be the chain output, or the 'local' output.Now, any switch is going to have a TOPOLOGY (no expert; I can barely spell that), where it's a 1 in and 2 (signals) out. When the topology, or connection layout is extended, as in my series connected, the layout, itself, suggests a 'fourth' terminal, rather than just the 3 used in one stage.The match, of the 'B' segment, of 3PDT switch, going out to the next station 'B' switch segment, suggests that a fourth location be assigned as 'B local input'.This creates a nice, common sense result, putting each local output to be sent into next station's local input. Formally, that doesn't show much meaning, but in the (series) network, in the bigger view that 'local' input makes sense, and preserves the need, to avoid any spatial offsets, from each station box to the next.(Otherwise, there would be a 'drift', misaligning each next box, that either needs correction, or simply doing station box placements that aren't in a straight line....Confusing, YES I know. (Thanks).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 07:28:03 pm
content: Wanted to divert, for a minute, to outline the TOY hand control, having a clever polarity reversing schemeBoth push buttons have a terminal, both normally connected to the (2 cell) batteries minus (-) terminal.So, by pushing the RED button, for example, the toy 'red' wire gets connected to battery plus (+). For the opposite; pressing the BLUE button, the TOY 'blue' wire gets connected, to battery plus (+).Since in either case, the TOY does get voltage supplied, via it's two wires, you get a 'reversable' or bipolar motor activation.(Picture showing the dog bone shaped TOY hand control.)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 07:33:59 pm
content: This second picture shows how the plus and minus battery voltage are brought out to two little tabs, for contact when either button is pushed.Please see little screwdriver tip is just above those two little stationary tabs, for contact when moveable tab(s) on each pushbutton happen to be pushed (button has usual springs and captive housing.)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 01:33:31 am
content: This TOY DOG mechanism shows the scheme for separating out rotation direction. Clock-wise coming in from motor, ends up same, clockwise or CW for short.With motor sending counter-clockwise, (CCW), the what I'm calling 'Square shaft', which is the main axel for turning, on both right and left sides.The main point is to show, a bit hazy, but in middle of photo, notice the gear has small gear integral, and the small gear now, drives another little gear. That can toggle back and forth, due to to rotation itself causing a rotary force (or reactive).Result is kind of like a 'Rotary Diode'. The mechanism gears the motor down a bit, then positions that little moveable 'inter-gear', so it's effective path switch.Also, though, this is also resistant to backwards applied rotary force, at least in the one direction. It's like it 'slips', when wrong direction trys to drive it.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 01:36:00 am
content: This view s bit closer, of the little moveable gear.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 10:51:04 pm
content: Just stumbled upon a basic function I need anyway, and that is for some 'slip' or other factor that lets me send a bit 'too much' rotation, to reposition that toggle arm.This set-up, shows first, emphasis on the movable bracket with inter-gear. That whole thing, when toggle is is in 'drift space' between either output gear, that whole toggle bracket etc is basically a 'sculpture', a 'blob'... until that encounters one or other output gear.I estimate, a swing of about 30 degrees, over time of a quarter second (250 mSec), and some thing like base motor at 1100 rpm est.When that interim switching state finishes, that little gear impacts into the gear edge, the output gear to be driven.A big gob of green grease was seen, might help make that little captive gear from turning, during that initial free flight rotation, to impact.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 10:54:29 pm
content: One other thing, is that the direction separating is done after a bit of gear down, like divide by 18 or something, before the motor has to push on that bracket and little inter-gear.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 03:43:13 am
content: Moving to gears, the only sane alternative, having stage after stage, each absorbing the motor's energy.The TOY DOG gear box has interesting switch, but not offering full comutating function.One possible build has that (toy dog) style switch, for moving the toggle bracket only. Then, another copy rides on that movement. But an indent or click spring would need about the same, forces, for the simple use of the commutating path switchBut the rubber wheel versions, provided a much-needed design optíon for reset of 'A' segment, in a previous stage.Photo shows, not too hard, to get gears to 'mesh', pushing the two together. Photo shows the toggle bracket went outside normal bounds, because gear box is opened.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 12:43:14 am
content: In this model view, symmetry of the 4 gear wheels makes for repetitive design. Looking diagonally, lower right, up towards upper left corner wheel, is how that path switch is acting.(Sorry, my layout needs tweaks, for having those 2 blue colored gears touching.) That swing, of the toggle between gear wheel outputs, is approx 60 degrees, in 250 to 400 mSec.Labeled 'L' means 'Local' input.The 'CH' is 'Chain Input', that will be 'A', 'B', or 'C'.This also shows, the Footprint, reader can imagine 3 of these flat 'wafer' style package.Footprint, input or output, is 2 by 6.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 02:04:28 am
content: The view (previous) is simplified, but also first shown as the 3PDT Switch, that it is. Next, is the particular details for this network, of series connected switch boxes.The layout, for the switch segments, (A, B, C), is non-trivial, very confusing in a 3-D way. So I'm up to it, haha...For reference, consider the 3-layer switch as a '3 floor apartment':Say, you lived on 2nd floor, each floor has two apts." To RESET the relay switch, " you'd say, "...go upstairs, and down (to Apt 3b)."" To SET, the switch, that's right next-door" (apt 2b).At any rate, a 3 layer switch assembly, is not that hard to assemble. A simple pulse exchange, or opposing phases, gets the network access done, and proceeding at the next 'station', each two pulses, does that phase pair, each per station.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 04:27:35 am
content: Do you think that these kind of mechanics were exemplified by the successful deployment of the James Webb Telescope? It had many single point failure points and I bet NASA also used some very creative mechanisms... the stuff used to deal with the sun shields is probobly interesting.. to anyone doing this kind of mechanism research, it may pay off to try to find details on the Webb telescope.Well, it makes the thread even more interesting anyway.Usually when you get the mechanical version of something complex, it ends up being more popular and interesting then the electrical version.I find it interesting that this thread was brought about by an idea of relativity and I wonder if this mechanism might have applications as some kind of gravitational distortion correction mechanism in telescope parts (on the battlestar galactica of course), NASA got my creative juices flowing. Hope it gets to L2 good

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2022, 04:40:41 am
content: Haha: coppercone2, I was just thinking that, but a lot going on right now, concerning that little toggle switch.The idea / example is: Suppose you have a Mirror Adjuster system, of 24 boxes.If you need, a little adjust, on # 21 and #22 mirror, plus some more extended adjust, the tension line on #17, here is how.By sending alternate pulses, (quarter second each), you work the way down from #1 to #17, then, you are free to adjust that output bobbin tension, that goes to one square 'tile'. Now, suppose everything settles and your calibrator reads that you've gone too far. The connection is 'analog', base motor down to target, but you can get lots of play in the gears etc.More like 'analog-ish'.Heck, you can play that one line in or out until happy. Then, you can do the two pulses each, to get past 17, 18, 19, etc, and do the minor adjust at station #21.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2022, 04:50:09 am
content: The thing about that toggle method, using the little inter-gear, is it has a 'CASCADE' function, when you start turning the input; The arm swings, into the bigger output gear, but then it still accepting more rotation. That new state is more resembling regular gear train, but you could conceivably use that output as 'Cascade Overflow' output.The little inter-gear pushes, one surface contact, on the gear tooth, of the big output gear, but then after transit is done the inter-gear pushes with the alternate surface! Yet, it is hard to visualize that.My dilemma, using that switch, don't know which is regular data for commutation, or positioning of the toggle itself!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2022, 05:24:41 am
content: I thought about this, is it possible to use momentum like a centrifugal gear thing, so if there is a rapid velocity increase there is like a spring loaded thing that pops out and makes it activate another mechanical system?So you can yank it back and forth quickly to make something deploy, perhaps on a damper, so it stays activated by some amount of time. Like those games where there is a ball in a maze thing, and sometimes you need to shake it to make it jump over a obstacle or something. Different damper/spring combos could make it so different 'communication shakes' toggle different switches... that would allow for pure rotational control if you can make the motor capable of excess speed on demand in a controllable way. I.e. turn crank forward 3 times then rapidly turn it back and forth 1/2 rotation. On a big mechanism presumably you can use your ears to detect a thunk that indicates correct operation. When its moving slowly the spring circuits would never get fired.I think there is something like this in old cars (RPM detector) that extends arms on high speeds to engage other gears/switches.And for all the toggle things its possible to put a big reset button connected to some weird actuator that disengages all the "dogs?"

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2022, 07:51:12 pm
content: (Sorry, worm gear on output was misplaced, now using right-angle gear.)Main concerns now (and thanks coppercone2), mainly are with the forces generated by the path-switched gear being driven. The reactive force can either cause 'more' engagement, or, the other direction of rotation can cause a disengagement force.So, let's say the original situation has 3 grams of 'drag' (see yellow colored big gear disk in photo), for when it's in free travel, then, when contact is made:5 grams of reactive gear force, 'deeper' into the output gear being driven.In (my) theory, putting about a 5 gram spring 'detent' into the motion of the toggle piece will allow setting, by the positioner, but the use of the commutated path will avoid actually changing position (of the toggle) that is because the disengagement force (should be!) lower, as the original 3 grams of disk drag aren't involved. For that, the little center gear is driven directly.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 06:27:03 pm
content: SUCCESS ! At least this problem.....This (photo) shows the 'Make After Break' style of mechanical digital switching. The highlighted parts show the path, for incoming rotary signal, from previous box.First a rotary TAP, taking output from the 'B' channel.With a switch, that rotary signal travels thru to the 'A' channel positioner. Purpose is to shut down the left side, or 'A' channel, that needs to be put into transparent mode.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2022, 06:36:21 pm
content: ...so this photo shows the loop aspect, where, having position the 'A' switch, back to transparent mode, the output wheel / gear gets contacted and gears start acting to convey that 'overflow' signal.That signal actually might not keep enough momentum as noted, the actual power source or rotation source has been switched away.Purpose is to cut the accumulated resistance, in the network, by doing some tasks as 'one time only'.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2022, 03:44:21 am
content: Ha ha, the photo looking like a Wedding Cake !This stack of switches gets the two, 'B', and 'C', to move together, when SEL signal comes. First layer, starting at bottom, is so-named local 'Motor', just a lable for that bigger gear. It is called 'Motor' as it is what moves the whole toggle, first by dragging the little inter-gear, literally, due to the heavy dollup, of green goo (an industry term, likely).Likely, this kind of moving toggle, in the toy, can't be used at very high speeds. At 1100 rpm (18 rev per sec.) the toy had two gears to divide down to about 2 rev per sec. before applied to the special intra-gear path switch.First layer does position of toggle, (that whole, towering mess...) while the middle layer is 'C' channel.At top, you can see the layer for doing the 'B' switch.I've left out a lot, this diagram is probably too unrecognizably novel. Yeah, I get that, a lot, sometimes. Up top of this; the 'A' segment has also a couple of layers. The 'A' switch channel is set together with 'B' and 'C' latching, but then will, actually be used later to reset 'B' and 'C' position.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2022, 11:23:19 pm
content: This photo shows the toggle-gate used with 3 switched signals. The 'B' channel commutator is highlighted in green; that's the 'B' output gear in the back there. That's a 25 tooth, while those little inter-gears have 10 teeth.Ironically, the lower 'switch' has no outputs as that is the positioner 'motor' layer. The 'A' channel is shown attached, in this generic switch view, but actually is independent, having its own large positioning gear, like the one seen at the bottom of this stack of switchesReaders may have difficult following the explanation, for how to clear the 'A' portion of the 3 switches.When the 'B' channel starts using it's chain output that indicates that it's time to clear the 'A' side, and preferably only once.That way the whole switch, at that station, has gone to transparent mode; merely passing signals through to next station.Some problems also with gear ratios, which need to stay near 1 to (almost) less than, say, 1 to 1.1.When doing 'motor' internal, at a particular station, it's OK then, to have gear down, as it's not a situation that the ratio keeps growing, outragesly.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2022, 08:58:33 pm
content: Photo shows, maybe hard to design, but to build is all standard stuff. The solution, for three main problems, is each with two gears, perhaps just one in a case.Looking at 'green' output gear, that's tapped, with rotary action used to reset segment 'A', in the current box. See yellow gear; that's the gear to drive, (CW or clock-wise). That will put switch to 'transparent, pass-thru' mode.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2022, 10:13:39 pm
content: A really fun thing, about this diagram: that yellow gear to blue gear rotation doesn't happen until, maybe 300-400 mSec. AFTER the blue gear starts getting driven. Sort of an overflow - saturation indicator.Using that, so-called 'Cascade Overflow' makes it safe to start (trying) to disconnect from the source of rotary action. Should, hopefully, disconnect (perhaps another 600 mSec. ).The full switching on the 'A' segment there, gets the transparent mode in place.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2022, 10:22:34 pm
content: Damn those gear towers are starting to look really complicated. I think your enclosure is stiff enough to handle it.. might need to move to something like anodized aluminum round stock shafts (might be a fair bit stiffer then dowels).When I saw your drawings it made me wonder about gears on bent shafts (like on purpose, so the shaft might look like a sinusoid with gears at different angles with special tooth cuts).. wavy shaft drives.. I wonder if thats a thing. The closest I have seen to that is a crank shaft in a car, but its still only ground on one axis.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2022, 12:22:46 am
content: The overall speed ratio is a big deal, spread down this line network. Considering 10 percent (speed reduction by gears), even 8 stages or stations starts to build up 'crazy' high reduction ratios.So, I wanted each switch box to be exactly 1 to 1 ratio, but also; perhaps a bit of (gear down reduction) would give some increased mechanical advantage, going down a line of, say, 45 feet.Gears, for the signal switching, are more merely to move the signal over, rather than explicit gear-downRatio of 0.9 overall, is not correct in photo view, starts to be in ball-park close.(Close to 1.0 or higher.)One idea is to have one switch box, at ratio for about 7 percent reduction, and then stringing 5 additional (serial) boxes that each are 1.0 gear ratio, in and out.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2022, 08:24:04 pm
content: ...coppercone2, coppercone2, coppercone2...I'm writing a folk song... Kinda catchy.If you roll this (see picture), along the flat ground, notice that the upper flex-shaft will be positioned, by whatever those cam-shaped rollers are causing, segment by segment.Of course, those 'cams' are ordinary plywood scraps.Imagine, then, there could be a 'carrier', plus some modulation...of the final upper shape...There's various, mostly messy ways to show this.Demonstration could show the idea, of a radio having 1 khz audio modulation, on top of a 1 MHz radio signal 'carrier'.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2022, 08:29:55 pm
content: To make a 'cam', the design involves plus or minus offset of the diameter, at whatever angle (from shaft mount hole). At bottom, of picture, you can see 7 (plywood) segments, all laid out in accending phases.Many other thoughts, yeah, flex shaft isa happening thing...(I'm an aging hippy, so forgive the lingo, man)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2022, 10:25:56 pm
content: Well, flat cams would be a really good reason to get a CNC router machine. I have a feeling that cams made out of aluminum on a CNC router table will be high quality.One of my project ideas was to make a rotary 'profiler' that uses a dial indicator to map out the surface of a cam.. it seemed like a project that can be put together out of standard bushings and rods available on mcmaster. The real ones from mitutoyo are very expensive.https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ACE-H10-Shaft-Concentricity-Measuring-Testing_60578631325.htmlA primitive version of this that uses bushing adapters of various kinds to center any sized shaft. I think they have dial indicators with a ball on the bottom like a ball point pen, you could use one with a extra long shaft to make a cam profile.https://www.ebay.com/itm/275081634005?hash=item400c24a0d5:g:LSMAAOSwCRthyxWrIt is starting to look organic BTW, like a spinal column.Also, irrelevant, but I did see this interesting technology on youtube where you can measure crank shaft bearing tolerances by using a special type of film.https://www.plastigaugeusa.com/how.htmlI find it interesting how they found such a simple and cheap way to measure something that has insane tolerance requirements. Those round surfaces pose special challenges.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 02:31:40 am
content: I'm thinking: 8 times rate, as a (radio transmitter) model, for doing modulation, at 8 X, rather than more normal, 1000 X for the RF carrier frequency. Like, for example, a 49 Mhz carrier is 100, 000 times a 500 Hz audio modulation.So the model has 64 plywood disks, that's 8 for making each (offull sine waves.That 'carrier' can be activated by twisting the shaft, considering that each individual cam creates a sinusoidal motion. The photo shows about half, of the 30 inch 'visitor's exhibit display'.For the modulating, that's at a '5' amplitude, that's going up with (added to) the carrier motion, up and down being the interest. Carrier is at sine peak of '10' amplitude, so I think that's 50 % modulation. (?) Duh...I did the 'modulating', calculated by straight adding, to the bipolar some values. Perhaps that should, strictly, be a MULTIPLY,...I don't know. Don't do 'Te h Stuff's, ( haha).Coppercone2: sorry, I always taking the complex route, huh?...Keep the nice suggestions coming!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 02:41:41 am
content: I hope you don't mind, an off the cuff, off-topic remark. But I wonder what would happen, if someone gave you a big, powerful, efficient high quality, modern 3D printer. Any computer equipment upgrades and/or training for 3D printer use, and 3D modeling/creation software. A very plentiful supply of (free, no cost for you) plastic filament, or UV setting materials, or whatever the 3D printer requires. Also, free/speedy access to a company, which will turn the 3D printed parts, into other materials, such as cast metal, where needed,I wonder what the heck you would be able to invent/create/make with it. Perhaps a big mechanically brained, AI supercomputer Robot, like they use to have in old 1960s TV/movie shows ?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 06:08:35 am
content: Actually, and thanks MK14, I think about such issues, sometimes, but I've had plenty opertunity plenty of resources, and luck ...A 'polymath', (lookit up: just means I'm good at YOGA). I can say that, anonymous, and mostly unsuccessful. But... Van Gogh got a lot of that drama/no money gig.I like saying ' I'm an artist', but that trite phrase gets me nowhere.HAYWARD CITY LIBRARY has 3-D facilities, that's a big, 4-story tall 'cube', very recently built. That's on east bay land grant, btw.Hayward is pop 200,000 + and about 30 minutes drive from San Francisco.I couldn't handle the details, of a good comprehensive 3-D printer package. But I did manage to complete a US PATENT application. Yes, AT THE LIBRARY!Pls seeUS 20030172205

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 07:11:20 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on January 22, 2022, 06:08:35 amThat looks like a very nice library, it seems very modern, and a nice building. It seems relaxing, spacious and rather interesting, in all, a nice place to visit.That is a very big patent indeed, you must have put a tremendous amount of effort into it, over a number of years. 89 detailed diagrams, and a huge amount of text, which at a glance seems to be book worthy sized.Yes, I agree. The realities of getting to terms with a 3D printer, and the new way of creating the 3D stuff on a computer. Would be a big change, to your work flow.A bit like in the old days, whereby if you just needed to write a quick note, simply writing it on a post-it-note sized piece of paper was much quicker, easier and needed much less skill. Than learning to properly use a type-writer, with full high speed touch-typing abilities, and high rates of words per minute, typing skills, and high accuracy.Similarly, to learn how to use the (now old) word-processors, from the 1980s and 1990s, with all their commands, and how to edit stuff and things. Would also need a fair amount of time to learn, to use it well. Although, if you can touch-type and/or type quickly, some of the old word-processors, are not that difficult to just sit on and use.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 05:54:32 pm
content: Looking at a couple things, that wood box is R.I.P. but a couple ideas, to share there (before consigning to closet).But first, after consigning to (possible) mundane design hours, a couple truly wonderfully (functional) things did become clear:(1) The switch positioning has a 'saturation' effect, after encountering end-of-travel stops. The switch toggle stops it's swing but the assembly still accepts rotation (input) without stalling. Incredible !(2) The so-named output 'cascade', used on the 'motor' section of the path commutation switch, can be used as an indicator, of switch travel completion by engaging with output gears.Actually, a third unexpected break, in basic mechanical, is that the 'B' channel, being done and gone 'transparent', that the chain output was usefully, for clearing the 'A' side switch....(whew...)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2022, 07:31:45 am
content: (Diagram shows) cleaned up layout a bit. That's maybe, 3 hours, min, right there. I think I figured someone, (you...) would have paid out around $20,000 dollar, for this monstrousit..., Er, masterpiece.Up top, 'B' channel has that cute little 'TAP', which actually allows for lower friction (build-up).Each input, and output really, have rt. angle interface, to the external shaft set, (4), that interconnects, box to box down the line.Down below, in this 3-layer jobber, is the so-named 'MOTOR Layer', that is for positioning all three layers together. The output labeled 'CL' is 'channel C local', and that is your custom user feed.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2022, 08:23:32 pm
content: Wanted to show, picture has the side view of the 'robot' dog. There are 3 movements, one is just tail wagging, that driven by an 'eccentric'; by that meaning a moving shaft/axel with wheel and a post, for eccentric action.So that goes back and forth, regardless of electric motor direction and polarity.For walking motion, is one output gear, and for opposite polarity, the output drives the head, 'bobbing' as the little audio board makes audio 'barks'...When motor is driving walking, (pretty lame), the front dog leg moves slightly circular: also used is a post, for the leg piece to restrain motion.Both eccentric drives have that feature, in frontActually the two sides are same shaft rotation, just in different phase, for shifty walking.In back (legs), the leg is just pulled back and forth, skidds or scratches in semi-realistic walking 'shuffle'.3V motor has the typical 10 uF cap across it.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2022, 08:25:38 pm
content: Here is view of whole package, wired remote.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2022, 12:47:28 am
content: Gear Ratios matter a lot, and there are a couple different situations going on here.For the 'transparent' aspect, you want as much lack of acceleration in the signal. This is because of the friction that can increase, when rotation rates vary; up and down. This is the case, even when overall gear ratio is at 1.0, and the reason being the non-linear friction, of various sources.In the photo/diagram, the 8 gears form various but average 1.0 ratio. The fact that some place(s), in the gear chain from input to output, will speed up the signal, like 40 to 20 for a 2X, that speed-up causes disproportionate more friction, during that couple if gears transition (of the rotaeasery signal).Then, point being, a following ratio, like 20 to 40 (2X gear-down), will not experience a '1/2' degree of friction (reduction) to balance out the increase.Current example the two diagrams are the gear ratio changes, experienced along the gear chain. Probably need a LOG (logarythim) where, 1/2 is same distance up to '1.0' on the graph, and a 2X ratio is, also that distance, up from 1.0.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2022, 10:31:11 pm
content: A transmission line question is coming up: Suppose there are 8 boxes, each sometimes switching, but for now they all just 'chain', serially. That's 8 gears per box, at 1 : 1 ratios, for a total of 64 gears, probably typical 32 tooth nylon.NOW... What happens, when your processor gives out a 250 mSec pulse, to the motor (that's 300 mA little pm motor)?I figure an impulse into typical toy gear chain, will take, maybe, 240 mSec. before the third station output starts rattling to life. (Another TECH term).AND, figure not much flywheel effect; the gear train prob comes to slimy HALT soon, like 100 mSec after the 3 Volts gets stopped.So I tried to graph thatPlease see photo

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2022, 10:38:45 pm
content: This more detailed (see photo), view shows the 8 gears in each station switch box.Idea is propagation thru the chain is palatable, or at least audiable and a 240 mSec pulse, making way thru 24 gears, comes out to 10 mSec per gear, to sort-of 'wake up'.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 12:23:39 am
content: Hard to convey in the picture, here, but question is about the back end, of the curve. That is, while I can imagine a front 'wave-front' powering into each next box, it's hard to characterize the back or turn off where rotation has stopped, in the wake.Plus, it becomes important to distinguish: most power stop actions also inherently place a BLOCK on any rotation, down the line as well. So that is, maybe, equiv of sending an (electric) pulse, then shorting out the line!It is possible, that removing the electric motor connect so the gears in the network line are free, that might have effect(s).Certainly, in steady state, having a 'dead' motor connected is a huge 'buzz-kill' (uh,...stalls the whole drive chain...)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 10:28:18 pm
content: Picture showing:The graphic has main TIME axis, moving downward as time flows. On the left, each series string (of gears), is for the rotary power flow as left to right; in other words, an electric controller / motor drives the series string Network.Looking at the 'red' gears; those represent 100 % of total speed has been reached. See first line; at 200 mSeconds from origination pulse (that's set at 250 mSec.)Next, going down, the (electric) power is gone, by time= 250 mSec. So the gear train speed starts to decay. Scanning further downward, viewers can interpret this diagram to show the 'evolution' from active rotating, downward in speed, to 50%, then 20%, before full stop.The graph is a little harsh, in that the residual rotation(s) likely persist more like a couple hundred milli-seconds..., Not 100 mSec.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 10:37:07 pm
content: The reason the graph (previous) helps, is to get a glance at how 'FAR' down the line that momentum / inertia will take the gear start-ups, after formal STOP is made, and will those extra interactions cause problems.Well, according to graph, there shouldn't be much residual transmission, (down the line to other switch boxes), maybe one box would be accessed.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 03:03:05 am
content: ...But what (that last) graph starts to show, how everything in that gear train line-up just, maybe, goes into a 'free fall', or at least 'free wind-down'. What I mean is, there is a sort-of ACOUSTIC like connection, from gear pressure applied, down the line.Think of it this way: With gear tensions or 'run lash', all back lash gone, try poke or tap the gear. Acoustically, that TAP will progress thru your train, enabling you to feel the taps, some number of gears forward. That's what I'm calling 'acoustic' and that moves at speed of sound (in metal). By taking some (even slight) pressure off, by cutting the motor for instance, you change the mode, of this gear train slow-down, to something like, every gear just slowing down by itself.(Using speed of sound est 1 foot per millisecond, very roughly)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 04:05:38 am
content: The provably, better approach, changes the rotary switch configuration, of the chained or 'Local', to a situation where the 'chained' signal is constant; never switched.Going box to box, there could be as little as 2 gears, interfacing the input to the output. Right now the gear count is eight, and even worse, for avoiding friction, the 'speed-up' then 'slow-down' aspect quickly adds to the total drag.This way, each of the columns are not switched, there are three 'TAPs' switched in, which is locally similar to the (current) state of ...:Revision 2.0.11.49532, Feb. 4thhaha

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 06:55:45 am
content: what if the stop applied a break to all the gears? like a whole bunch of pins with rubber on the tip that press into everything to hault it.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 10:06:28 pm
content: Coppercone2:I don't think I wanted that individual stop: but it's just that I realized, each individual gear, maybe, gets into a state where there is no 'immediate' forces but rather just coasting down, along with everything else, along the chain.I heard about gears, many years back, dude was saying that ' gears aren't what's doing the work'...that it's really forces on (gear metal teeth) rather than some kind of 'spin' energy...Something like, he saying ' Gears are just a convince, round in a clever way to bring those 'working surfaces' into contact...At any rate, stay tuned, please...more breaking news...I've figured a basic change that gets rid of massive gear count (and DRAG!).The new idea has the 'chain' from station box to station box, with, essentially NO gear, that being just one continuous shaft (although using couplings of course).See photo, there is ONE gear, incidental as the TAP switch being open will leave that gear unconnected.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 04:34:51 am
content: The 'switched-in' signals don't make it, back onto the serial network. For those components in 'switched-in' chains, a couple of gear-downs don't hurt, as this is one instance, not chained.For example, a 1 to 2 ratio, followed by 1 to 3 ratio giving a total gear-down of X6, could then position the toggle 'motor', with geared-down ease.As to the question: Why not switch off all of the box, at once?That's a (frustrating) circular argument involved. It's like, channel 'A' cancels 'B', turns out the lights, and goes home..., but who is left, to turn off 'A' s lights?But now, using SPST switching, plus that hot-hot 'overflow' special function, it's more reliable, to implement self-disconnect, (hopefully without needing some ghastly flywheel contraption!)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 05:21:33 am
content: abrupt interruption of rotation between gears is certainly interesting to think about. When you think about how the deformation from the impact or the 'lurch' from the break might look like something is 'spreading' from the edge of the gear which puts a real spot light on the 'surface energy' as you described.When a rotating gear has a strong magnetic field applied to it as a break its certainly interesting.. uniform field around the gear when the different parts are at different KE's. Makes it seem like the field should NOT be uniform to give a 'softer break' to the gear.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 04:09:25 am
content: Wow, nice:Enter the ' PROXY GEAR '.I remember, recently saw that great, mechanical computer video, featuring a ' Range fire Computer '.That, would track an early airplane, effectively 'doing' calculus, for the tracking, using RADAR input feed ...Well,... anyway, this ' Proxy' whatever, it's really a;1) ' Proxy Motor ', as it runs, almost exactly, to the tooth, in step with the 'real' motor, the one in the next switch box (or station).2) well, uh, it's not.It's really a PROXY of a VIRTUAL MOTOR. Er...3). How about: it's a virtual motor, a 'Proxy Gear', and it's a proxy for another 'virtual motor'.(or gear-train).Plus, it's looking like it is possible to make a 'self-extinguishing' switch, using the features in a virtual motor right there, to basically indicate the 200 to 400 milli-Seconds it takes, normally, to fully switch, thus start to an 'overflow'.Yup, extremely valuable and simple, for timing, which is actually more literally 'sequencing', at whatever timing it took. Just being carefully, to match gear tooth counts, for the 'Proxy' right there.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 09:16:36 pm
content: It sounds cryptic, but that's the input face, including the 'L in' or local motor input signal. That is responsible for setting the 'B' switch (TAP). (See photo).Let's start with that: The switch section #16 is sending, activating the next box, Station #17.Now that we can focus, on Box #17, we can send as needed, the custom stuff, (custom rotary output from Channel 'C'). Then, when it's time to move on, to Box #18, Channel 'B' can activate the Channel 'A' TAP Switch.Notice that any switching activity does not involve switching to an already active shaft, 'A', 'B', or 'C'. That's called 'DRY SWITCHED'.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 09:18:48 pm
content: Here is a related photo, showing the 'footprint', for the 4- Shaft mechanical BUS.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 03:43:45 am
content: It was too tempting to use this (Photo), as that's a lot of work. The main shape, essentially after a 'Y' shaped path switch, gives a 'form' of sorts: outlining where new components can best fit. In this case, picture shows the 'B' column variations don't use any of the 'right side' gears, for connect by the moving tip gear. So that space becomes the (empty) place of interest.With the 'A' switch to the right (next sheet), the intermediate shaft can fit, to the right of the 'B' partition, where it sits, in the (output) 'Footprint', as discussed.Up to, notice no 'motor' features, just 'reads' the turning there, of the 'B' Shaft into that commutation toggle. The 'Overflow', by the way, is best if located around, (including the double riding gears, the TIP, and the PIVOT gears), plus the little driver wheel.All very detailed and messy...AND boring I'd bet, not for me tho....

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 10:21:49 pm
content: Folks; SORRY, I made major mistake, but easy to remedy......But first, a brief look at the layout / locating of the 'LOCAL' output shaft:The diagram showing simple shaft connects, only local as one box, only to the next switch box.For layout, that 'L' or Local shaft, in the 'footprint' of the input face, should simply be spaced a decent amount, from the 'A' shaft, and 'B' shaft.So, half way between, and that same distance (down) makes for equilateral triangle.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 10:31:53 pm
content: My mistake, (Sorry !!), was that the 'B' channel gets CLEARED, not SET !For that you need the right- hand shown 'Overflow' gear. Plus that ends the use of that space, previous not occupied...Photo shows: The Local output from each switch box will connect, by shaft, and end up powering the Virtual Motor, the type that positions each toggle.With ratios like; 1:3 with 1:2 and another 1:2, that ends up being a 1 to 12 gear-down, and heck; I don't have any clue what I need there.Those two intermediate gears are, mainly, there just to transport the rotation over there, sideways.The ratio 1 to 12 sounds OK, as I figured some toggle gears only move, like 5 teeth during the mode of switch transport, (expecting 200 to 400 mSeconds normal).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 01:58:56 am
content: Taking a minute's distraction, here is a mechanicalADJUSTABLE. SIGNAL. GENERATOR.Thinking about that 'Toggle' switch, you know: How about a 'feature' to stop in the middle, of travel of that TIP Gear; that's a no-load place, where the switch components are not pushing a gear load.Anyway, no time to think in-depth, but you could do some time divisions, and without (obvious) ratio gear-downs. Some pretty nice Timing and (small) distance potential.For example, your processor, smart AI, will trial out that a 240 milliSecond rotary impulse will cause a 300 mSec travel time (before the switch toggle lever drags to a stop).So your handy processor, ( like an Arduino) can keep a little table: Maybe Station #7 has a glitch where it needs extra time. Perhaps, then, Station #10 had been found to switch extra easy / fast...Temping diversion !

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 05:54:10 pm
content: There are various ways to have oscillation, the switch, in SPDT arrangement (double-throw) merely has an inverter in one path, both paths then connect to the switch positioned 'motor'.With 300 mSec to complete movement, plus about another 200, for loop; that's 500 mSec at very best. But then, you need 'recovery', that's where the machine puts itself back to starting condition, by returning the SPDT switch back (to ready state).The way to get faster, is by using an alternating'either-or' where there are 2 pulse sourcing bits of (gear) logic. Each could do a 150 mSec pulse, every second, so with both, you could have a 2 HZ CLOCK.To make even shorter, but controlled, pulses, the switch is 'prewound', which simply means that, during recovery time, some portion of the characteristic 150 mSec can be input: say '50 mSeconds' worth. Then, the pre-conditioned timing can be used, soon, completing the full, disconnect that a single, 150 mSecpulse is going to do.Of course, you also don't want the sort-of 'tooth-grind' that may happen, at very tentative gear separation.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 10:51:38 pm
content: Working on a pretty good wrap-up, at least this phase. The layout has 3 segments, 'A', 'B', and 'C', and so is (ridiculous) very wide. It is a 2 layer deal; the lower layer of a switch is for positioning (i.e. 'Motor').The upper layer, that's called a 'Reader' or 'Follower', as it can read out a toggle position, out of 0 or 60 degrees rotation from within stops.For fabrication plans, comparison shows one of those toys, has about 7 gears, roughly, in that little gear arrangement. This Mechanical Logic Switch design will use approx. 14 gears, in the upper, reader stage.Plus, this Network Gear-box has, about 11 gears, in the lower, toggle positioner spaces.So:... That's approx.25 gears, compare with 2 toys, that's at approx. 14 regular type gears. Point being, you are not in the 'quicksand', not yet anyway.Also, notice I left out the 'C' channel, another 9 gears.That's 34 against what 2 of those robot toys have; 14Not that bad, those gear boxes are tiny.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 02:33:42 am
content: Picture showing:That's the 2 TOY gear layouts, with the path switching to demonstrate a very accurate look / size occupied, etc. The 'Y' shaped layout, of both switch assemblies, is apparent.Plus, there is a watch band set there as a pointer in photo: that gear, the band points to, on left, is a second gear, just placed there, to simulate roughly what the other layer would take up, in thickness overall.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2022, 10:18:56 pm
content: Focus on the 'A' column the purpose is to set, pipeline style, the NEXT switch box Station, for transfer function, down the Network line.Basically, 'A' (local output), will exit this box, in the 'Footprint', representing that shaft (see picture).Notice, a CW (clock wise) turning of the 'chained' signal ends up again CW, by the end of the 4 gears, as each will invert the signal sense, CW or CCW.A tough structural item to convey, is the simple bearing and 'head to head' alignment, between two separate shafts: The output here, is using the same footprint location, as the input, although such has geometrical reversal, left to right. (Shaft footprints are, also, continuous thru the switch box interior: thus reversed depending on viewing direction.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 05:52:12 am
content: One concern is Parasitic Back-Feed, where 2 signals mix, but in ackward fashion, as each separate signal, now together, will 'back-feed' as an unwanted or parasitic signal, that may cause some random harm.Remember, this is machinery but 'designed' by a Software Expert...(ahem...).Remedy is easy examination: one case has the parasitic driving, backwards, the 'A' switch TIP Gear.However, during that time that TIP Gear is un-connected; just flapping in the breeze.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:56:41 am
content: Hard to see, in photo the separation, at 90 mSec, of that TIP Gear, supposing gear teeth are, perhaps, 0.08 "and so that little movement, for disengage, came out to about 7 degrees, (out of the total 60 degrees travel).A bit of time is needed, overcome the extra heavy 'grease', but also not much acceleration at end oftravel.The full diagram would have, at end, a 7 degrees or so of engagement. That might be very short, but not a source of (short) pulse.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 12:55:54 am
content: Taking a look at how to use a 'PROXY' set-up, each switch box needs to SET the following switch box, meanwhile applying that to also RESET the currently selected switch box.So, in effect, the swing travel (should) be same, just mirror reversed. But, conveniently, the switch here, in the current box, provides a usable 'substitute', and this the term used: PROXY.The overflow signal indicates that the typical 300 mSec travel delay, has made contact (that's why you get that rotary 'overflow status' signal.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:01:01 am
content: I would seldom consider using the term 'delightfull', to describe a gear train, but here goes:Picture shows, (maybe never going to be clear, really)The gear train runs towards the left, that being the 'A' positioning motor. Two 'alternate' lucky breaks are that a 'backwards' and unwanted signal that 'B' Output sends, as a result of legitimate sending to SET switch 'A', that signal also folds back, a parasitic that goes into the 'B' overflow (output).However, good news is, that RESET Overflow gear is currently in an unconnected state, (when B output happens, the 'B' switch is, by definition, positioned away from the overflow.Same good news, for the parasitic signal the other way; When 'A' is being RESET, that signal, from 'B' overflow (while being RESET), will back-feed, to the'B' local output; but no bother...again, by definition, the 'B' switch will then have been positioned, in the open or RESET condition.Very confusing, I know! (I had to design that shiii)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 06:36:16 pm
content: A chronological treatment is going to help for understanding over-all function, of these pipelined switch boxes:First diagram; From a box's point of view, an arriving 'SELECT', arrives, on the 'Local' or 'L-in' shaft. That gets moved over, from left to right in diagram, resulting in driving the positioning 'motor' element of switch 'B'.Looking up higher, straight above is the upper layer in this expanded view and that has the little toggle, that follows the lower toggle positioning .The 'B' shaft is then going to drive anything, but for now the shaft is stopped (dry switching).That's going to take some 300 mSec, nominal, for toggle travel.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 09:57:36 pm
content: Readers should note that it's the 'A' shaft itself, that powers the SELECT action, (to SET the 'B' switch). That is, from current (new) box point of view, the 'A' shaft actually starts up, rotating slightly before that SELECT starts coming in. (More in a sec.)That's because the 'A' 'generic' shaft signal, when asserted, is there in all the boxes down the network line. (The other boxes are just not in selected mode.)Note also: I corrected the 'A' switch position depicted, supposed to be in RESET position.Looking at the gear chain for the 'A' motor, that's shown with a marker pen set on those 4 gears. Ignore, please, the front little chain, (4 gears, they have a little paper slip along them). That was previously discussed.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 10:12:05 pm
content: (Previous diagram).Interesting, the 'main' just, of that gear chain, the 4 gears (underneath pen) form a path from the 'B' local output (that's just by turning the shaft, while selected, some custom connect), path to the 'A' motor input.So that looks pretty 'normal', but hold on...:The upper, follower section, of 'B', sends down, and into this chain, but, ALREADY there is connection, to the gear that conveys an overflow...Maybe not obvious, but feels 'reckless', or like a:'. '. MECHANICAL. SHORT. CIRCUIT ' '.Uhhh, I think they call that a 'STALL', ...pretty sure.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 10:48:27 pm
content: I'm assuming a (rotary) signal gets down the network line pretty quick, like 1 second or less. Assuming, say, 12 stations, each 2 feet apart.In each station, that rotary signal gets thru in probably maximum 50 mSec. Funny then, the nominal gear start-up or accelerate time is 10 mSec per gear, : That means significant time, especially with, let's say, 8 gears. That's an 80 mSec time to start rotating at speed, and signifies how a switched signal can 'lag' in time, behind the 'raw' generic shaft (any of 'A', or 'B', or 'C' series BUS chain.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2022, 11:51:18 pm
content: Let's stay on this TIMING thing, a bit more:So impulse #1, that was put into the 'Box Input', and goes, internally, directly to set (that box's) 'B' switch.In the string or series string network, impulse #1 serves to SET the next box, from (expiring) current.Impulse #2, that's where channel 'B' outputs, again internally only, the 'command', as it were, to SET the 'A' switch.I'm figuring, by the way, sending BASE CONTROLLER knows which station / which delay or pulse length, etc to use.At 50Sec. each, 4 stations should be OK at 200 mSec delay, before assuming you can start timing, plus whatever action time, for switching the network components, that it.So that is saying, at Station 4, when you want to impulse one of the internal switches, your Electric Motor impulse should last, at least 200 mSec + 300 mSec, for best reliable switching.So, STEP #3:). Now that channel 'B' had SET channel 'A' to active, and assuming you've done all of that 'custom' output from channel 'C', now it's time to send out, to next BOX, a SELECT for local hand-off.Step #3 is kind of complicated:It sends, out via the 'LOCAL' shaft, to SELECT nextIt parallel sends, via LOCAL, to RESET the channel 'B' switch, right here in this box, but also,It uses the 'Saturation Overflow' to accomplish RESETback around the loop, as that reset takes away the power that is doing all this (that's switch 'A' being active).So, that's a few steps, but, aside from any complexity with channel 'C', the actual impulses are simply, 'B', for 500 mSec and then 'A' for 500 mSec.If no activity for 'C' output, it takes a pair of those, to get down to each next network box.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:54:52 pm
content: You get a TON of diverse ideas, using that switch with the second, logic follower layer up top. Several ideas, at once, can pop up; (if you are enthused), including a very 'traditional' looking 'Edge Triggered' pulse 'circuit'.In photo, the diagram has a drive (rotary) signal arrives to the 'D2' gear input. Not shown is an additional connection option: By connecting the switch motor driver to the switched output, (D1), you get an interrupted impulse to the motor, that will start to dis-engage the whole switch (toggle lever).That's one layout method. Another, places that motor input to the basic circuit input, this the motor keeps running, strong, even after pulling the reader portion free of any drive input. That's going to produce a classic RISING EDGE TRIGGER.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:58:53 pm
content: This photo, features the latest shift, from schematic and (endless seeming) diagrams, to a test bed, for getting some timing info.Landlord is Elec Tech / Engineer with many nice items, like the TEKTRONIX old school SCOPE.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 06:07:40 pm
content: Using the first test bed, I want to try out some of the many assumptions and cautions, (mostly concerned about parasitic signal feeds).Probably try a toy electric motor, as a generator of some electrical output, for triggering that '465 scope.I figure, roughly, a motor shaft spinning at 30 revs per second, that's going to be 1 milli-Second per gear TOOTH, for 30 tooth nylon gear.I have used the light metal guitar string, for various springy contacts, so that is another option, for generating a little pulse, for diagnostic uses, in the LAB. (We use a Lab with 'car storage' option, and fresh air).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 07:26:48 pm
content: as a side note, did anyone start researching spintronics after looking at all these pictures... just for namesake alone?Something kinda makes me feel like eventually someone is gonna figure out how to use monoatomic? hydrogen as a gear

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:14:03 pm
content: Here is a pretty wild example, using commonplace analog concepts...(and YES, you can squeeze some analog, even from 'digital' switches).Using your custom 'C' channel, suppose you have a moveable 'STOP', that can be adjusted, in some separate action / components.Now, that picture shows, the temporary STOP is now at 48 degrees, travel from zero. Course, you lose any right side gear function, as that requires full travel, to insert gear teeth, of moving TIP rotor.You can arrange, for PULSE duration match, you would have a 'PROXY', that's just a useless looking, no output switch, that provides tracking info, regarding being in step with another gear layout; that being in the next box, or wherever.But back to function: The arrangement is to run the two gear trains at same time, and cause any lingering output, in the compare, to be 'ERROR', for feedback.AHH: but not feedback to gear train run, but to cause the slight adjust, of moveable stop.That way you can issue repeatable impulses, even though the actual components are transient involved, or, said another way: The process, for a single time interval, is DESTRUCTIVE, in that you cannot repeat, without an 'image' source somewhere. That's done by that moveable stop, that does not change, except by another, separate action.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 01:01:26 am
content: All kinds of so-named 'RUN-OUT' schemes can be tried, for generating (surprisingly short) impulses.First of all, just a simple Run-out can be done, shutting off motor power (the toggle pulls clear), and subsequently the toggle stops it's arc of travel.But, importantly, an output is tracking that short bit of inter-gear 'drama', uh...and that means Output stops soon, too (Output is essentially in parallel with the TIP gear).Took a sec. to illustrate some possible Spring Detent, there...Now, I say that switch Toggle travel, in that 60 degree ARC, takes, est 240 mSec. (divides out to 4 mSec per degree, average), and, showing in the picture 11 degrees of swing ARC, why isn't that, 40 mSec ?Well, the 11 degrees of start-up travel are probably the slowest, due to huge GREASE viscousity.Plus, please note that those three gears, in photo there, don't turn, or at least AREN'T WORKING.They could just as well be sculpsures (my favorite),or...heck... little toy 'King Kong' figurines, those being transported / dragged upon the disk of their fate (The regular big motor gear disk)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:23:27 am
content: Looking at (this) photo, Readers may wonder: That looks a mess...how could such a wild' A LION, STANDING ON ANOTHER LION'S BACK'...how could that, you know, work ?(It does the compare you'd need, in a PW servo.)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:24:48 am
content: (double-decker)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 02:34:31 am
content: ...That double layered, does some fancy footwork: first, the lower half will position the upper, within normal 0 to 60 degrees pivot. Then, second, the upper layer (yellow components), is simply spun, a little, and is designed for that to be irrelevant.Notice, way up top, the red gears bring in the 'minus' or negative quantity, for 'backwards' subtractive effect, on this compound toggle.This would do, for example, 200 minus 190 = 10 mSeconds. Now, really, the actual quantity is gear tooth count based, and some slip/ drag.Anyway, the result is an 'error' signal, to be fed to the static PW Proxy. Hopefully, as a servo, next time the error comes down.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 05:29:39 pm
content: Regarding that Pulse Width copy process, for SERVO use, the included diagram features a 126 milliSecond count, against a 118 mSec duration 'Test' case, for determining SERVO response:Sorry, the arc of travel, of the moving TIP gear should be shown as 'running' in, (or back), not as 'running out'.That's running out, to a moveable stop, on the right, but no overflow. Could be seen as a prep move, for next impulse, to be, again, with ARC of travel back towards the left overflow gear.(SEE how easy, things gets bass-ackwards....The 'subtraction' process is quite adroit: coming up with an 'error', as the first (top) timing is longer.Process is to then feed that 8 mSec 'error', back to the adjustable stop, in this one, repeatable SERVO action.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 09:05:48 pm
content: You know what makes this more interesting now then 50 years ago, is that you have a high speed camera in reasonable smart phones. When I started seeing timing numbers pop up, in this time range, I kind of wonder if its within the realm of using a iPhone slow motion mode to prove this design.. this used to take serious money I think. Well, or it was a huge pain in the ass with a bunch of encoders and electronics. Talk about rapid prototyping improvement... when I think about this measurement problem and the capabilities of a phone. Timing a whole bunch of gears with a phone video is a gigantic cost reduction for a prototype. I think if you got a tripod or put the phone on a micrometer arm (and maybe some mirrors/periscopes on another one) it might be able to give reliable and reputable scientific data on a complicated gear train so long its not shooting oil everywhere.The magnifier app, seek thermal cam, slow motion cam, magnetic field meter (careful with this one, might be a gimmick).. and you can even hook up a sdr, high sensitivity microphone (acoustic signal analyzer) and external optics to it (macro lens, microscope lens).. not to mention it makes conferencing easier with photo uploadI wonder how far it is from being a real life tricoder, useful for science.Tried the slopro app for iphone @ 1000 FPS, quite impressive.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:47:45 pm
content: Hey, a distraction for a minute:That R/C car has steering, and reverse, from remote....oh and was $ 9. 90 drug store chain.Likely great motor power.Make a good SCARE -CROW !We got CROWs, bad.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:54:50 pm
content: Hey Coppercone2, how are ya ?Thanks, man, for, especially the micrometer mount.I do have kid-style microscope.Reminds me, I met a person, INDIA borne, that young person demo'd his 'Tech Rig', a soap box on wheels.But that kid welded, soldered, fixed any electronics, on the streets, of (Bombay?).Anyhow, I bet I would enjoy a good, mechanics shop supplies, for specialized, ultra-accurate shit, (that is, a catalog for lathes, etc. instruments.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:59:04 pm
content: I had a look at spinning some high RPM stuff (like a kitchen blender) and it looks like the iphone app on a iphone 10 does a good job of looking at it.. a bit blurry but maybe the light is not enough.. if you are serious about high speed video you need very powerful lights. If you put a bright color on the gear it should be able to look at those response times, 1000 FPS is 1mS.. so you should get 100 frames of your object in slow motion. I don't know if they do some kind of digital magic that makes it less useful for actual science..I had these old gear boxes I found before, small ones, about the size of a film canister, that were ultra precise with reduction ratios, brass precision gears and a slot for a photo diode break beam encoder.. I imagine that's the kind of thing you would use to 'test' the system you want. When I looked on ebay A while back they wanted like 200$ for each of those gear boxesmanufacturers website was like $600+Right now I am experimenting with using the FaceID scanner for 3d scanning. I think its quite impressive at making 3d models considering how poorly I took the pictures sliding on my ass around the floor to map a drink can... I was thinking about making a turn table for 3d scans and improving my home made iphone tripod that is too light (got some aluminum round plates from the trash that I can glue it to, and Possibly use two more plates to make a rotary base for it.. just by press fitting them with some retaining compound on a old hard drive motor. Great bearing, no cost, and can be computerized if desired later on (I think they are variable speed so its no problem to make it rotate slow?)Anyway.. if you never tried to harness the full power of your phone sensors its pretty fun.. gonna look at the lumen sensor and maybe try a sound FFT app also.I kind of wonder too if you can make a frequency counter for gears from a phone's magnetic field sensors for cheap RPM measurements. I think I had a app that graphed field strength on an old phone.. maybe someone made a counter.. great way to suck your expensive phone into a giant gear box tooFor gears, if they still had an audio jack on the phone, it would be trivial to fit a inductive pickup probe into it in order to get RPM recordings too.. that would be pretty high quality industrial grade stuff. I think they have a break out cable (I modified my inductive pickup probe to a BNC cable, so I would need a BNC to phono to iphone adapter).https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/inductive-sensors-purpose-working-principle.jpgIt's probobly possible too to modify one of those ultra-rugged iphone cases with some 2450 cells (or flat LiPO) and power LED to make illumination for high speed video work

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 12:39:15 am
content: Thank you!Believe it or not, COMMODORE 64 has /had awesome real-time performance. You build a framework, like, say, 100 uSec per click. Course, your 50 Hz or 60 Hz video is going to be 16 milliSec per field for 60 fields per sec rate.Anyway, much of this is looking like 1 milliSec thru about 999 milliSec range, like 300 mSec typical.I thought, gear TOOTH took up 1 mSec, each, to pass by...Right now, I'm distracting myself with design for output 'SQUARE' waves, roughly:A mechanical 'Square-like' impulse features 450 mSec on time, CCW (that's counter-clockwise), 300 mSec off or coast-down time, and the same for CW, another 750 mSec.Total repeat time, of 1.5 seconds.and with decent stationary time, for less stress when change directions of rotationThis thing would have like 3 or 4 special gear / switches, but one of a kind test ew. so not multiples.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 04:23:43 am
content: Coppertone2:My recall is that a coil, say wound on thick nail, is fairly weak, in voltage output, especially compared with a piezo sensor. Like, 0. 070 volts vs. 1.8 volts, for loud noises.But, with added X8 OP amp circuit, (Lm324 has four),not bad voltage. Always possible, some foil sheild sometimes grounding that, and wrap around, will help, for hf electrical noise, nearby .Of course, for scope trigger, could always trigger on electric dc switched in, for toy motor, then, somewhere, for diagnostics, another toy motor used as generator, creates 'pulse', but that's kind of vague, and besides; single shot stuff on scope won't show well, especially is it changes, each trigger time.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2022, 09:13:06 pm
content: These 2 diagrams, (enclosed photo), perhaps not related directly, show the kinds of timing, in the milli-Seconds range, generally.Bottom diagram features a 'SQUARE WAVE' generator, having also those periods of mechanical output 'rest', at standstill while gears still turn (somewhere).Upper diagram features the timing (I think...), estimations for the two existing 'OVERFLOW' gear outputs. The 'L' (left side) gear will turn for a bit, RUN-OUT, until toggle lever TIP gear disengages, approx 90 mSec.The 'R' (right side) or SET OVERFLOW will run, after TIP gear contact engagement, for as long as input.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 07:33:34 am
content: I had a really tough time, on this SQUARE WAVE generator. Thinking it would be easy, you have your ON time, plus another timed 'off' time period...at least in ttl electronics...This thing does the sequence, for 1 SQ wave cycle, in 'brute force', setting an output and timing that (T1 in diagram). You get the needed positive contact result, at the end of T1, for an assertive response, which is to issue an 'End of T1' signal, signifying the switch had reached end of swing travel.That starts up action, to soon pull (switch T3), to end the cycle timed by T1, plus the short wind-down T3 represents.For the (empty action time) of T2, that signifies the off or stationary period, timed and issuing an 'END' pulse, to next section.The next section, not shown, is virtually the same, except that it times things for a CCW or counter- clockwise output, in the SQUARE wave.Also not shown, is the reset, or 'RECOVERY' mode, where everything (in diagram) needs to be returned to start, for another timed square wave cycle.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 09:17:20 pm
content: As to any errors, there are plenty...for example, that previous 'SQUARE WAVE' Generator layout showed incomplete waveform diagram, it needed the second 'rest' time, that brings that waveform to 1. 4 seconds, or call it 0. 7 hz.Now, innovation for avoiding complete self-destruct, by abrupt direction flips suggests: DON'T DO THAT...But that doesn't help.What can do is:Double-up your little system, this is Test Equipment, (potentially), and only making a few...there.So, one impulse timer/generator runs a pulse output, CW or clockwise, say, once per second.Now, with attention to phase, exact 180 ° (degrees), another separate little gear layout does the exact same thing, out of phase, and going south (pulse rotates to CCW or counter-clockwise).Build those two simple sources, and, diagram showsa simple phase sensitive controller (gear-switch), coordinates start times.The two, opposing-coordinated signals mix, logical-or style.Possibilities include un-conventional timing overlaps, doing unexpected things...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 10:38:16 pm
content: A brief run through the issues of scale distortion, just common friction being stubborn; I.E. viscous grease + drag...Figured, est. that 0 degrees thru 60°, to be way, way slow, at first, at 42 X SLOWER !Wow, but the stick is static hold, electrons got comfortable stationary, etc etc.So, after first 11 degrees or so, figured estimate was:Go up, decent, and turn curve (see fig.) slope down; Classic 'S' curve, where speed became, essentially without acceleration. Otherwise called peak limited.The right side diagram features that same 'S' curve function. Notice, starting the diagram for clockwise, that curve starts with 'jump', to 90 mSec, for only 11 degrees, a bare sixth of total angular travel.Seems fairly normal. Big dots signify more linear response, travel position, VS. time.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 11:45:45 pm
content: Ok FOLKS:POST A PICTURE, of your ROBOT. DOG(Mine is posing next to some nice wood burl box)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 11:57:44 pm
content: Hey! Ha ha:. Jokes on ME ! :I figured a lazy break... Show your ROBOT,. bla blaBut, along the way, That DOG exhibits the very same little glitch, in movement, that I feared. The action of switching the toggle, when you've mixed toggle movement signals, INTERMIXED, with the 'data' being switched, well, that creates approx. 120 mSec. of backwards drive, (to left side gear, in this case).That's before the formal, desired output direction takes over, so (you've) got to wait...until the TIP gear comes clear, of the former contact with left side output.If you recall, that moves, one of the linkages, outside of toy's gear box, that moves the legs, in little circular patterns. But the brief movement is obviously backwards, from point of view of one of the Robots paws.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 03:21:18 am
content: This current photo, makes the case against NETWORK propagation delay, at least some.You can see, as the signal or 'work' flow is from that electronic Base Controller, having small electric motor outputs. But the shaft, it simply connects, straight is best, down a 'series' line, on occasional bearings, in each distributed box.I'm thinking, say, 20 msec to box #1, from controller, then 400 mSec, for a Station box out 20 feet away.Then, internal switch swing times of typical 300 mSec plus ..So might be, at end of string, 400 + 300 = 700 mSec.And so, instead of playing '700', against 380 mSec,I just throw hands up and say: " Do 1. 000 Seconds, for a few percent over what's needed, without case by case delay.Often, with a 'Human', we can take 1 second, just pulling arm back, after pressing 'START'.Cant see good, thru my intentional 'smoked plexiglass' boxes., But only one box, at a time, is with switch TIP gear engaged. All those other Stations, with their own main (un-engaged) gear it's just hard, sometimes, to conceptualize it all, so hard, while keeping some computer science function detail in mind.But, so anyway, don't forget, the main method is to send, to excess, that one single impulse, of concern, trusting switching (or whatever) will be completeMeanwhile, down the line, there, the Station switch performs an 'auto-stop', of sorts, self switching upon completion of some local task.For example, when switch 'B' gets cleared, overflow after positioning completion, then proceeds to reset switch 'A'. So the box kind-of self disconnects components, for least drag but also so that function doesn't 'Do the UNDEAD' thing, later.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 03:56:44 am
content: Here is more detail, on the 'Proxy Gear' similarities with that tear-down video, on " FORD MARK II Range Computer"..something like that.Inside, a GEAR acts as a real model in a simulator intent, (partially what I thought a tracking gear could do, for my particular issues.)The gear position symbolized an aircraft under tracking, while another gear symbolized 'velocity', (I guess, maybe). Plus, acceleration, (the 'third tier' in calculus integrals) was also in thereRadar input provided 3-D info (? maybe?).Purpose was to swiftly move the big anti-aircraft guns, but as time brought out the Jet propulsion, well, the FORD MARK II Computer faultered...('Proxy Gear does similar work, following some remote component, but also provides valuable longer term timing (delays).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:53:59 pm
content: With all this subject jumping around, Readers might appreciate some more depth, describing that SQUARE WAVE GENERATOR.(Please see diagram). With T3 switch positioned in connected mode, the application of 'power' by way of input, starts an Output goingThe idea, for timing this, is using Switch T1 for a 250 mSec delay, before turning off the impulse Output.(Meanwhile the input continues to supply the power.)Each timing switch ends up in a cascade state, passing output rotation continuously after end of cycle (passed to next component).For the 'OFF' time in this cycle, another switch-timer, T2 will, as the others, run the time, 250 mSec. and then start sending the 'T2END' status Output.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 11:43:03 pm
content: For the Sq wave: Diagram shows 'T3' at bottom; that's the output you want, timed to 340 mSeconds.Notice the waveforms T1, and T2 finish and then just 'hold' there. Each separate timer can do that, for a cascade that enables the next component, without additional explicit switching.Don't be fooled, by thinking a time interval is over, when the timer reaches 'Sat.', as there is still a short bit of work, (and rise times), before effective end of this little cycle, and start of next.Notice, also, turn-off IS faster here, at 90 mSec, than the bigger swing 250 mSec for the 'assertive' contact switch end-field.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 01:01:38 am
content: this came to mind, the 'no go' zones of these kind of contraptions are bound to be interesting. Then you start thinking about flex of the chassis to allow the gears to some how walk over each other or something so they do not break teeth when it has a aneurysm. So the shafts in the gear box and the gear box walls are all spring mounted and it yields and has a (undefined) spasm instead of breaking bones. That sounds like it belongs on a battlemech (from the battle tech universe, how do you make a bipedal tank keep lumbering after it gets hit by a rail gun?). that might be applicable to walking proteins too, since atomic bonds are stiff but often described with springs.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 01:28:03 am
content: Here is diagram, probably still imperfect, but to show the 'cascade' sequence, at the end everything's streaming out...But like before, the good Output you want is from 'T6'and there are some special details, keeping rotary direction proper, for the negative half, of Square Wave.E.O.C. (see right side of diagram), means 'End of Cycle' and that would start up a process to 'restore' the various toggle levers, for next plus / minus cycle.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 03:56:31 am
content: This looking, 7 gears -switches, course they're TIMERS, and do special jobs, like issue overflow / underflow status...(like some 1982 z-80 CTC beast).And so being TEST GEAR (no real PUN), that's no sweat build.The arrangement sends out Clockwise, 500 mSec, then 500 rest stationary time.That second half is simply blank timing, as the zero part of Square waveform.Same for the CCW or counter-clockwise Output, you get 500 milliseconds on the CCW labeled Output, then 500 of stationary rest.Notice it's two fragments of a SQUARE WAVE, needing a mix.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 04:02:45 am
content: Coppercone2, I'm going ta need you on that...WTFDIVIDE BY ZERO ? ...HUH ?...what happens, if I press 'PLAY' ?Will it: PLAY another video ?...maybe it will 'PLAY that video...'...Huh, ?...

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 04:05:23 am
content: Can we nominate this thread for the longest Solo thread of the Forum ?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 04:05:44 am
content: I just mean that the failure modes of timed mechanical systems are interesting, since you are getting into pretty precise timing. When you start counting miliseconds thats getting precise. I like how the calculator loops harmlessly rather then getting jammed up/broken by incorrect input. It could have probably been built so that it explodes gears when you divide by 0.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 06:03:32 am
content: Actually, I had been thinking; What about a video, that can run any program, or PLAY any video...Was this an old-school prank play?Spatt:Run Splatt;At any rate, you get that (120 millisecond) glitch, when even the follower stage has CCW coming in...You get a 'pull-away' transient output, very un-planned, but surprisingly benign.Like, when an un-designed feature sends that 'backwards traveling' signal, but to un-selected output of something...Not even touching...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 09:10:56 pm
content: Here is (photo), almost buildable, and that's really only two gear assemblies...To start your SQUARE WAVE cycle, a 500 mSec impulse, going CW or clockwise rotation the INPUT comes up, feeding through to the Output TD-3.TD -3 is kind of a 'Normally Closed' switch; when it is turned it disconnects, typically in 90 mSec.First, TD- 1 starts the swing, over to contact the next (TD-1), and, notice that TD-1 times through a bigger swing, than 60: It swings about 85° for a delay of 400 mSec, before starting the disconnect to be 90 mSec 'fall time', of the impulse.It was fun to go ahead and skip any 'intermediate' gears that would connect the two separate timers!

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 02:32:59 am
content: That last schetch featured a 'disconnect', at 90 mSec and a good place to point out: that 'TD-1' timing set has a, literally, positive assertive time-out, that being the little impact, and connection to overflow Output gear.Looking at 'TD-3' that's not the case, as the Output just becomes unconnected, and so does not work any loads, as it slows to stop.So the task is to time the next part, of the SQUARE WAVE, that's the OFF or stationary, for 500 mSec.But first, to get that start, best way is use another gear, for timing a specific, assertive end to the pulse time, regardless of exact match, or not, with disconnect and stopping.Of course, any TEST EQ like this, adding some components is no big deal.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 05:10:39 pm
content: My first choice is to continue my work today, amid bad news/war, for many.Yes, I watch, and argue among friends...(we disagree).So, please forgive, I see the troubles, but work is work, so...===========================================================================Going into a modeling / prototype phase, for the (Mechanical) Data Network, but also interested in mechanical LAB DEVICES, instruments such asSquare Wave Rotary Source Generator.As to the timing: I'm looking for what I like to call:90 / 250 ...which means typical expected is250 milliseconds, to travel the moving switch TIP,and 90 mSec; that's how long you get rotary output, when 'pulling' the switch gear out of contact / engagement.The 250 mSec timing possibilities are nice. All without any explicit 'gear train', at least not fullyFor estimating: The thing obviously takes some (wild) fraction of a second, and most certainly not 'zero' elapsed time, ... 250 mSec has a darn good chance !Audio sounds, like quick loud hand-clap, are fairly close to 50 msec, and a 'slap-back' from (concrete wall) nearby, that's around 50 to 120 mSec.That Toy I'd mentioned, dog's tail moves about 4 to 6 times in one second, I figured. That's approx 170 to 250 mSec.By the way, in case wondering, the TOY runs at rate of 2 hz, at the later stages, into the directional switch.?? Numbers don't match, above, but will figure things out, with that 'open face' special model (see photo of prototype, with transparent face, for testing.)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 11:37:00 pm
content: Taking a look at speed parameters, and the increased voltage pulses, the numbers come out to a shockingly LOW LOW 1 / 17 MPH ...Yes, that's about 6 % of 1 MPH !figured like this:Second half of (toggle lever) travel, at 150 mSec point (of 250 mSec total), things are up to speed (in viscous grease), say that 1/10 inch takes another 100 mSec of travel:That's an easy 1 inch per second (0.1 inch in 0.1 sec).Now, that rate can be increased, by using DC pulses higher than 3 V, say 9 V, for 9 times the power (SQ law),that the 3 V runs at. Maybe, est 300 mA X 3 V is only about one watt.Now, 400 mSec might even be too much ( heat gen), in a 500 mSec ON, 500 mSec duty cycle (50 %).Maybe the 250 mSec pulses, issued thru transistor buffers, would be tolerable for shorter runs.Heat sink, on motor always possible...With shorter swing ARC, right now, could get switching times down, along with that motor pulse Voltage increased to 9 V, 600 mA (transient 1/2 watt).Perhaps, times reduced, to 90 mSec 'rise delay',and also reduced 'fall time', or 'disconnect duration'(Actually, more like a little delay, then gear winds down). That's easy some 35 mSec...with any luck...Some 4 Hz potential, without too much unusual construction.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2022, 07:26:05 pm
content: This enclosed diagram lays out typical switching time durations, (to accelerate and move the switch toggle lever).Using Google, the typical EM relay (mechanical moving contacts), operates at several milliSeconds travel time, with specials doing 100 uSec travel times.So, that is a benchmark curve set; SEE LOWER CURVE, please.Up top, with an easy, demonstrated timing clustered near 200 mSec, readers should realize; that kind of time, basically one fifth Second, is on similar time scale, as a quick arm and hand movement, (in sports, etc). Going under 1 mSec for a mechanical device, that's just awesome. ...Using previous thoughts, that 'speed' would be:250 X the 1/17 mph calculated.So...that's 14 MPH average for the 'TIP Gear' ARC swing. (If I did that correct).GOOGLE 'Small signal relay' for more history info on that older technology.Some scientists get bored with this sort of (endless seeming) narration, covering a single switch action, blah blah blah: BUT:I've also heard that, in the past, many SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY people spent lots of time, on 'pesky details'...too.(Lol, TIC). (That's 'Tongue in Cheek).-- Rick B.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2022, 04:26:33 am
content: For a bi-direction data interchange, couldn't be simpler:For reading a Switch, let's say it is a thermostat, or something...this (scetch in photo) shows a few boxes in series. To read your special switch, (of course, when at box # 14, or wherever), BASE Station sends, via shaft 'C'; that goes thru sensor-switch and, thanks to BUS method, is able to DRIVE the 'A' BUS shaft. That, of course, goes to every Station, but this action is done while box #14 is in 'SELECTED' Mode, meaning some drag on the 'A' shaft, but only one Box at a time, anyway

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2022, 04:35:58 am
content: Continuing on, with a second photo, filling out that mini-Network; And now shown, on right side, from Station #13, That box is doubled-up, with separately addressable Station #14, for doing that M1 'motor' function, to move the Switch that can be read, later.So the two stations would be in same box, and cable of sending the 'single bit', of data, really, and BTW encoded 'rotary', that is CW = 1, CCW= 0.Notice, maybe, you can store '1 bit' that way,...right there in the remote box. (And simple, too!)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2022, 05:40:57 pm
content: Filling out the details, here's how a remote station Switch Encoder works:(See Diagram), the two variations of (resolved) SWITCH positions are easily encoded; simply 'invert' by using odd number of gear interconnects, and mix the two possible (signals).Using the rt. side layout scheme, you can see, one path gets through unchanged, while other gets rotary direction reversed.Now, also here, please note that the method, for reading and sending back position, to the BASE Station, needs some additional logic, for (time) sharing the 'A' shaft. Otherwise the box, itself, will try to 'actuate' based on shaft 'A' sourced 'commands'.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2022, 07:16:18 pm
content: For 'crude' analog, remote, a conversion to Pulse Duration allows for sending a proportional signal (back to the computerized BASE station).First, the 'C' shaft rotations get looped back down, towards BASE Station, signifying pulse start.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2022, 07:25:29 pm
content: Now, second photo shows: The timer runs approx from 150 mSec to 250 mSec. You want to skip the lower range, as that gear start-up is very non-linear.After that Timer-Switch has rotated, to contact the Overflow Output wheel, the process is started, to pull the first switch OPEN, that way the rotation drive, 'C' to 'A', is interrupted, signifying the stop of time period, and also has to account for the 'Disconnect' pull, adding another 90 mSec or so.Base Station gets pulse (by reading shaft movement) and will time the 100 or so points, between 150 and 250 mSec. Of course, a calibration helps, and temperature, etc can cause inaccuracy.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2022, 08:01:59 pm
content: Switching hats, for a sec, this photo covers some current thoughts, on how to plan for Oscilloscope (Tektronix '465, YAY), the response involving getting some contact (or optical), and measuring timing, starts with electric impulse start, and interval would end on that diagnostic temporary electric contact.High 'E' GUITAR STRINGs are very delicate and springy, for making temporary switch, (along with 3 V battery holder, and optional pulse indicating LED.Another 'street' tech method, has that 'tickle wire' on a regular gear, obtaining ground, or whatever, by way of the metal shaft. That way the little springy wire goes round just sitting in top of moving gear.Of course, other contacting switches (Microswitch Co.) do that, but I wanted high resilience for fast rotation movements.

author: Capernicus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2022, 03:34:26 pm
content: Are u making a mechanical analogue computer with cogs?The illustrations are beautiful, nicely colour coded for clarity, How much paper have to got lieing around now about it?Your going to need even more, maybe 15 years worth and then u can probably start a toilet paper factory with it.CCW subtract, CW add. I'm the same. and that gives u scalar values, (not just logic gates, which is digital.) you have a range from 0 - 360* (or 0-70* and dont use the full circle ever) for your minimum and maximum and u allow for half turns inbetween to get the scalars I think that's a good way to do it.You get multiplies from the radius of the cogs. and I think doing that is what gets you amplification possible. U sorta power into the transmission gearing and it gives u amping.You've got even more in front of you if u want to finish your computer!!! =) keep going! you'll make it and if u finish it you could be quite successful.I wish I could help more, but I'm not using cogs, I'm using cranks. It's similar how its based apon rotation the same as cogs, but its a little different too, because I end up with a different set of problems, but I bet one thing mechanical does in general is to tend all LOCK up together, if one part of a mechanical system locks, the whole freezes all at once.A tricky thing (And I think you also stumbled apon it.) Is that if you attempt a gate with two operands, if you affect it with operand a, it actually outputs and goes down operand b at the same time, (so it spits back into the input.) U need some way of separating that, one thing u can do I think is u can do operand a and operand b sequentially instead of at the same time.If you cant get arithmetic to work, you can try and get logic gates and do it binary/digitally, may be easier, up to you.I think cogs get solved slightly differently than what I'm doing, so its up to you keep at it!

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2022, 07:55:12 pm
content: Capernicus, thanks for review !(feels now, like you the Senior Designer, here )For your points, some thoughts:Not directly thinking about ANALOGUE, but just a couple posts back (approx 2/28), I'm discussing how an 'analogue positioned' moveable 'STOP' will adjust switching speed...That is, the distance that TIP GEAR has to swing, for contact with output gear.So you can get manual input knobs etc. on a range of 0 to 99 for a somewhat nonlinear behavior.(That's converted at BASE Station, being a Pulse Duration, where, for one example build, it's a max pulse of 250 mSec, where usable range is kept at 150 to 250, this you have a 100 point range, to some accuracy.Thanks for your thoughts, on what I've been calling 'spurious back-feed', (or 'parasitic back-feed). Nice to have somebody watchin mybaac, even if it's finding faults. Numerous detail errors in there; not real bad, but I DID the MOTOR ELECTRIC POWER calc wrong:It's up to 6 Watts, transient motor pulse, using 9 V pulses, approx 600 mA.Ever listen to Dave Blank?

author: Capernicus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2022, 06:00:31 am
content: Are u talking about moving the cog itself? That could be useful, maybe adding cranks (Like on the wheels of a train.) to your design might help.Cranks will add nonlinear behavior, tho.I'm Just watching a Dave Blank thing now, on nano-technology.Resin 3DPrinters could print some really small cogs, but it would be a bitch to have to assemble it all together with tweazers.I'll be back, I'm a bit busy atm.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2022, 09:24:45 pm
content: Capernicus, coppercone2; MK14 : Here's more details:The 'COG' moving ? Not sure what that question is?I'd say, the 'GEAR's move, sometimes only, like 1/ 4 turn. Probably OK in (any) machine under light stress conditions, and modest working lifetime.The gears do not, however, do not DIRECTLY have analogue encoding; most logic in each switch box / Station are for FULL actuation-switching, thus considered 'DIGITAL', in academic sense.I've left open though, possibilities, especially with analogue easy conversions to pulse width (or duration if it's just a single impulse).This morning, posting this display of one suggestible method, for generating electrical contact action, for SCOPE analysis.One thought was to simply, symmetrically, connect another gear train and switch. It will be 'backwards' as you are sending into the second gear train's output.Goal is just to 'wiggle' the motor, obtaining approx 1 V pulse, for timing studies.Need caution as the 'motion reacting' gears probably take a lot of time, maybe too much, for valid timing measurements of the first gear train (that I'm interested in characterize).In photo, the left side has electric motor to stimulate with a plus or minus direction impulse, say of 250 mSec (as the device likely switches in that 250 mSec time).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2022, 09:55:13 pm
content: Here, in photo, shows a supplemental support, for 3-point support, of the little switch module, on that plastic base.Picture is upside down, you can also see where the 'left side' output gear goes. That gear location is on rt. side, in this photo.Goal here is to have a stable test stand, and provide (various) ways to get a wire-to-metal contact result, for measuring timing. SEE: in photo that eccentric mounted 'link piece' is underneath and pokes out a bitfor the temporary trials, to obtain timing and transit details, in the ARC swinging toggle with TIP gear for commutations.The little cludged support was cut from a typical plastic parts slide drawer.That 'push button' panel you see is from the Robot Toy;With one push, you get + 3 V for CW rotation, or, on alternate button you get the minus (- 3 V) for CCW output, from motor, into the Direction Sensitive path switch.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2022, 11:11:08 am
content: A little self-awareness can often help. Looking back, (please see Nov 24, 2021 post, reply #18), and thinking,with the (mechanical logic switch tools, presently could attempt a binary-coded addressing scheme.It might be lot like: Imagine telling the boss, as investor rep listens; "Fred, ...We gotta dump this whole line, ...our design has been 'OUT-INNOVATED'!"Well, ...that's bad (sez boss).""Yeah, and it was me, disrupting my own technology..."Oh, well: Just trying, to get the thing out the door, before another round of 'improvements' disrupts it.It reminds me of similar post, there was a culture of spinning the pc board fab, too early for proper testing and bug fixing.At any rate, the '''''''new''''''' scheme would involve, say, 4 shafts, binary coded:First 3 shafts are address, in a traditional 3-bit code, while the 4th signal shaft is the 'STROBE' input, off the BUS. Typical 1 of 8 decoder (technically 'demux').This is leaning towards addressability, of elements internal to any particular switch.Those local available signals could do the logic functions needed, those being explained here, as the main 'A', 'B', and 'C' shaft signals.Notice that I'm still not suggesting binary addressed (switch) boxes, or 'Stations', which actually might be something like 5 bits, for up to 32 Stations.No, it's the control actions, locally...With some of the aquired skill set, it might be simpler and, indeed faster, to use the conventional random access type (selection action).But that way won't do 'unlimited' numbers of serial connected Switch Box Stations...Hmmm gotta think on that overhaul....Can anybody, see, the potential, and engagement such a project, purchased in kit form, brings to the classroom...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2022, 07:28:30 pm
content: Ok, now, (I'm afraid this latest convolution, is going to alienate / lose some READERs...).Don't worry, pipelined stuff frequently gets VERY difficult, comprehension-wise.It's looking like the (BC) grouping, in the scheme where the 'A' on the left side (of schematic), and 'B' shaft and 'C' shaft are grouped as 'right side' type, that (BC) group can be replaced, calling the new section the BINARY section, of the (serial) BUS.What that means, (I'm thinking), is that the 'Binary' section doesn't REPLACE the older way, but rather it SUPPLEMENTS with binary encoding, for expansion to have more than the ONE custom 'C' output.(Also see post #134, as it relates to this whole SELECTION, and partial box split-up, into logical left and right 'entities'.)So, it's very similar; The former (BC) subsection is replaced by a set of binary-coded functions (local).Here's the run-down:With 1 shaft, you get 1 function,With 2 shafts, you could try encoding, to Clk, A0, but those 2 shafts simply decode, to 2 outputs, (so no gain).With, 3 shafts, typical binary, you've got CLK, plus you've got a 1 of 4 decode, so 3 shafts giving 4 output.And; With 4 shafts, you get CLK, plus you get 1 of 8 decoded outputs.Etc. etc. for a doubling of local available OUTPUTs for each shaft signal included in the BOX signal 'footprint'.Soooo... ... It's looking like, BINARY decode is a nice expansion, of capability, but not until you go to a '5 Shaft' system, of BOX I/O shafts....(some) Potential for error, here......VERY HIGH PROBABILITY, of READER 'confusion', here! Sorry, comes with the territory...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2022, 08:03:24 pm
content: I will be supplying the layout diagrams for doing Binary Decoded function expansion (5 BUS signal shafts, now).Looking back at the posts involving more than 1 local output, internal to a Switch Box, now: with the binary decided scheme, can put more functionality, in one BOX, relative to the NETWORK of serial-connected individuals. That means, for example, a 2-bit memory cell, can be written to, without going to an additional Switch Box, as the 'decoded' 1 of 4 will give an additional 2 functions.So, a NETWORK Switch Box Assembly, 5-Shaft type, will then have an additional 2 un-committed shaft outputs, for doing actuations like, for example, 'RING a bell', or, an example set the LOCK to a safety hatch door. Previous example just used 2 combined box's logic, into 1 box, for getting 2 custom actuators.OK, Readers, time to start 'bleeding from the eyes'...(Shucks, I'm just a Fatal Engineer...)It's gonna take a kid, ages 3+, to really accept all this......'DATA BUS'...'Mechanical logic Sequencer...''...'Data / Address Decoder'?...'Dude: Where's the chips, there'

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 04:07:10 am
content: With numerous changes, here is some help, for understanding structure of the NETWORK:Folks could ask; Why not just apply the standard 'decoder chip' I/O lines, and just do the Transparency thing some other way?Good question. By keeping the 'A' side switch, OUT of that process, of enabling the 'NEXT' network station, you avoid the act of switching a 'LIVE' signal. That's because when any signal is issued, from electric motor(s), that signal is present all the way down the line, the whole series.So, any Switch On Select, would otherwise cause a spurious 'surge' as that moving switch contacts the moving 'A' shaft, at completion of switch travel.So to avoid that, you only want to switch on, the so-named 'right side' components, first, (from the prev box).That's the down the middle 'SPLIT', in the architecture here. Next, the 'B' channel (new box now) the B channel performs the 'trivial looking' act, of Selecting the 'A' left side switch. Sounds too simple, but result helps avoid that 'switching HOT' type transient.This time, for that switch box 'clean up' or 'un-Select' the 'A' side, like in the (BC) case, on the right side half, NOW it is the 'BINARY DECODER' substituted, simply for more capacity and features, by decoding 1 of 4 outputs, to actuate 'Locally' in this sw Box, or nearby external (rotary) JOB to perform. Example might be to put a couple of 'impulses' into some string winder BOBBIN.Wading through this design process involves some 'sorting out', trial and error...and COFFEE...lots of coffee.Paying attention to standardizing a 'footprint' helps impose some structure. Some old assumptions persisted, despite fundamental design shifts...(We've all seen THAT persistent dysfunction, in work and personal).I got lucky, and found some 'architectural' direction, out of that switch connection TOPOLOGY...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 04:25:59 am
content: (part 2 of review)The sequence, then, is to enable the next box, partially, then turn over the action, to that next box.The 'new' box then enables it's own 'left side', channel 'A', and starts to go to work, using the binary decoded output to manipulate things.That would be, first that 'A' switch enable, and then, second, the 'BASE' Control Station will use the previous box's 'A' channel switch. Remember, that is still in active mode...You have a kind of 'Smeared' locality, of what's 'on-line', and what's transparent.Now, using the pivoting switch 'OVERFLOW' status signal, (described previous), that lagging Left side portion can be made to transparent mode, so whole box is transparent, to the binary decoder signals, while the next box is FULLY selected.Each excursion forward, down the network line, works that way, a complicated 'pipelined' situation, very hard to digest, newly...That last, self-extinguishing action, is 'A' clearing the right side section (the decoder and user custom outputs), with eventual overflow, that loops back for 'Self-Cancelation'.I gotta come up with a more optimistic term...Anyway, that issue, of having no ADULTS in the room, at the end, leaves a BOX in a sort of 'Limbo', but I'm confident a definitive turn-off, to transparent mode will not be impossible ..

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 07:23:41 pm
content: I like the shape of the latest drawing, it reminds me of old banana plug crystals, and I have a matching transformer that kind of looks like that. Feels like it belongs in space.I recently diagnosed my old lambda supply with a bad capacitor, they sure like axial parts. That part would look great inside of that chassis as a electrical component.Its amusing to see the concept art.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 08:41:09 pm
content: Haha, coppercone2, it's very NICE to have a 'fan',...besides the stray cats I tend to, around here (lol).That rounded case, well that's copied from a Nesquik Chocolate container, yellow plastic, very rounded.Space-Ready ? Maybe me too.You (must) become a 'Packaging' guy, if you want to survive, in the 'Eddukasion field'. ...uh, thats 'Edukation'...uh...Anyway, I tried pretending to be an ARTIST, that didn't work. Its a struggle, against basic Uglyness, and aging...(But I usually don't have to look at myself, lol).I use the plastic container, out back, picking up my POT smoking remnants, so KIDs can't get to it.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2022, 11:03:01 pm
content: Finally, back to work, it's maybe mundane, but necessary...necessary for the fabrication phase to be STABLE, if not accurate. (My machine shop skills are pretty sloppy: + or - 1 mm....terrible).But at least stable, someone could 'stand on' the contraption, so things, (Scoping the sub-second mechanical action), at least repeatable.That clear plastic column gives a 'third' mounting, and the other two utilize pre-threaded mounting posts, from the 'walking robot dog' toy, I've commandeered.Much of the worktime consists of shuffling around (the workshop), looking for glasses, or, especially:"...WHERE's my little Phillips ?...?....". (screwdriver).We all get that.Right now, I'm trying to remember:. Somebody POSTED info, on conversion of TIME, to Voltage, for checking things...that might help me, using two wires, stone knives, and wooden sticks, to measure LAB stuff during product development.That blob of plastic, on a green base, is my ROCK STAR, for the season...(guess I don't get out, much, lol).Getting close, to measuring crude start-stop pulses...(On the generic Mechanical Commutator).