OS used in a electronics development setting - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bsccara
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 02:10:52 am
content: I'm currently developing a tool for electronics development work to be controlled by a computer. In order to better allocate development resources I'd like to ask you what, in your experience, are the OS most used in computers connected to electronics development equipment, such as scopes, logic analyzers, signal generators, etc., in a professional or hobby setting.Thank you for participating.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 02:27:59 am
content: For test equipment, it has to be Windows, because few of the existing tools from Keysight/R&S/etc work in other operating systems.But 95% of the time, I only use the front panel on the instruments.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 02:50:31 am
content: Just offhand I would guess mac is least used, their user base being more creative/artistic than technical.For the most part, it follows consumer computing trends. It's been a long time since they days of specialized computers, workstations and mainframes; your average PC has orders of magnitude more power than all of those combined, certainly more than adequate to do anything you'd want to do with the connected instruments.I don't know personally what drivers and tools are available for *nix, but I'm guessing for example NI supports it with their tools (most relevant probably being LabView or a GPIB adapter)?So, corporate IT for instance, is probably already doing this, just request another PC to run equipment.Tim

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 03:04:53 am
content: Just make a Python library to go with it. Pretty easy to make it work on every commonly used desktop OS and even some embedded ones.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 05:39:34 am
content: Bench computers that we use attached to gear, to google stuff, etc are all windows.I have no idea what your product is but if I was developing a bit of kit I'd have it with ethernet/wifi and let users connect to it via a web browser.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 06:18:20 am
content: For me Windows in both my work and my hobby. There's really no practical alternative for me - the vast majority of software I use runs only on Windows* and I have no reason to use two separate OS.* - Yes, I am aware that I can use wine and if I spend a few hours diddling my computer, use some obscure hack and type in a meter long arcane console command then it will actually be usable. But I want to use my computer to work, not solve computer problems.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:02:54 am
content: There's a reason that most industrial grade software (Cadens, Zuken, ADS, Altera, Xilinx) runs natively on Linux.The same for STM32, Microchip, etc.If possible use TCP/IP and/or RS-232 connection and use SCPI commands like most professional instruments.That way the OS doesn't matter.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:18:17 am
content: If the question is aiming to create new tools, IMHO supporting both Windows and linux is almost a definite must. The fact some large players only support Windows doesn't change this. Many developers run linux for most of the tasks and booting into Windows to run one Windows-only tool is manageable, but totally unnecessary distraction so if you can get rid of that it's very helpful and creates a big value-add for significant customer base.Windows support is obviously a definite must-have.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 12:20:17 pm
content: Let's rant...Technically ?- telemetry? license managers? DRM? royalty per tool/format ? ...- no source ? no tools w/ paying "extras"? not ready schemas.. ? printouts..(blue) ?flushed that long list nearby latrine...Ethically ?- a threshold or crossroad has been reached where everybodycan (and should) choose the proper option...I myself just have stopped using and supported that MS pig shit.It is a free ethical choice .. Technically there is not even debate.Paul

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 03:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: bsccara on June 08, 2021, 02:10:52 amNowadays you'd be foolish to develop for Windows only. Linux is pretty common in engineering workplaces.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 06:12:18 pm
content: Quote from: bsccara on June 08, 2021, 02:10:52 amPerhaps I'm misreading this, but to me this sounds ambiguously phrased. If the tool is expected to run on an engineer's desk, then Windows seems to be preferred in the EE world (I guess -- I have a software 'engineering' background and prefer Linux, as do most of my former colleagues). If however that tool is to be run externally to any engineer's desktop, say for 24/7 test or production, then Linux is the obvious choice (just give it some nice web GUI so that the Windows guys don't get scared) if you (and those developing and maintaining that tool) are already familiar with it (but why do you ask then?).

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 10:07:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 08, 2021, 03:45:37 pmWindows 10 also has WSL so if you support Linux, there's a chance it will just work on Windows 10.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2021, 06:04:05 am
content: If you want to develop a tool that needs to have a GUI, than there's only one good choice: Qthttps://www.qt.io/

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 12:19:07 pm
content: Windows-linux 2:1 is very close to what I expected to see.One third is a massive customer base.Modern software development practices emphasis cross-platform whenever possible. If you have competent people working for you, the extra cost of supporting both Windows and linux is negligible.If you choose to only support Windows, it's basically saying "f*** you, we are not interested in being helpful, cope." Those using linux mainly will cope and work around the limitations you gave them, but it will cost them time, and if available, they will turn to a competitor who offers the linux tool once available, so you are at a risk of losing the business.OTOH, if you only decide to support linux, you are completely locking out some part of Windows users who are just unable to cope because it has been traditionally possible to work on Windows only so they never learned to work around.All in all, for the widest audience, you absolutely must support Windows but not supporting linux is likely a very bad choice, so do support both.In best case, all your tools/UIs/codebases except embedded core itself are written in such a way that providing support for all major OSes is a matter of running compile, running a simple unit test on each system, and packaging the files.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 12:29:58 pm
content: I personally prefer Linux because I'm not tied into a closed proprietary ecosystem. But I do find I am sometimes limiting myself as there is just not as much good professional grade software that works in it (general purpose CAD for example) and if I buy a piece of hardware it's a gamble as to if it will work in Linux or not or be easy to do so (sometimes it works, but it's ways harder than in Windows). Or if I want to get into something like say, FPGA development, I need to figure out how to do it in Linux. That said I still prefer Linux for every day use and I will use ease of use/compatibility as a deciding factor if I buy something.If developing a product I would just try to make it as universal as possible. Make it work in a web browser or make it use serial and make the software open source and provide documentation such as the serial protocol. This saves you from having to officially support other platforms but at least enables the product to be used on other platforms if someone wants to develop the software for it. Of course if you put effort to make it cross platform then even better.I hate that lot of companies go all copyright nazi on software that on it's own does nothing. If you are selling hardware, the software is only there to make it work to it's fullest extent, it should be free/open source. Same with drivers. Wanting to keep the hardware itself closed source is another story I have less against that, but the software that is required to use the product absolutely should be open source.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 12:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on June 10, 2021, 12:19:07 pmThanks to WSL, supporting Linux likely means it will just work on Windows 10, of course it's good to check.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 01:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on June 09, 2021, 06:04:05 amHave you missed the license debacle?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 01:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: bsccara on June 08, 2021, 02:10:52 amLinux and Windows. Personally I prefer linux.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 02:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 10, 2021, 01:45:01 pmI believe their LGPL license would apply.Definitely worth digging into the details.Your target audience is mostly likely Windows or Linux.The LGPL licensed sources arehere.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 02:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 10, 2021, 01:45:01 pmQt has two licenses, a commercial one and the LGPL.If you want support and the latest & greatest versions/updates/patches, you buy a commercial license. Nothing wrong with that.If you don't want to pay but you still want to sell closed source software, you can use the LGPL'ed Qt shared libs (.so/.dll).

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 03:12:34 pm
content: In my experience, engineers love going on about how superior Linux is, but when it comes to the actual work, they tend to choose Windows precisely because "it just works".

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 04:22:58 pm
content: Counting Microsoft's update disasters the last 12 months many people might disagree with "it just works".

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 06:16:36 pm
content: Windows, by a mile.When I worked in the pharmaceutical industry, everything was connected to a Windows machine.Personally, I use Windows primarily but do some Linux stuff mainly because that's what's shipped with the RPi.For many situations, if you know what you are doing, the choice of OS should be immaterial unless it's part of a formal design specification.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 06:31:55 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 10, 2021, 04:22:58 pmOh man what is up with that anyway, do they not test their code? I guess they do... in production.I don't remember it being this bad before, I mean yeah windows 98 and that era had lot of random crashes and blue screens and lockups etc that required to end task or reboot which was still pretty horrible, but Windows 10 seems to be plagued with bad updates that render the whole PC completely unusable. I'm so glad I don't use that OS I would be so pissed if 1: updates were being forced on me, and 2: these updates had a decent high chance of completely trashing my computer.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 06:47:56 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 10, 2021, 04:22:58 pmCounting how many times Windooozze locked and trashedand bugged and failed over the 20+y w/me that sounds hilariousMy 6y nephew after 5 minutes was pointing and clicking anddragging and fussing a linux machine built for him...He can say that works.. even learned the finger asapPaul

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 09:09:03 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 10, 2021, 04:22:58 pmHave you ever worked on a software that is used on many millions of computers in open ecosystem (meaning you have no control over hardware nor software aside from yours)? Well, as some who has, I can tell you that no matter how much you test, you are going to screw something up for someone somewhere. Windows is running on over a billion PCs worldwide, so no wonder issues crop up every once in a while.In all my time using Windows, I never had any issues with it that were not self-inflicted. I did have quite a bit of issues with Linux, which I also use for work. I've lost count on how many times what seemed like a simple version update turned into a multi-hour saga of troubleshooting with pulling my hair out.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 09:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on June 10, 2021, 06:47:56 pmIt's funny that Linux is much more widely known for having issues during updates. Especially when it comes to drivers, which stop working all the time due to constantly changing kernel ABI.As for Windows "locked and trashed", 99,(9)% of those cases are either users doing something stupid (average Windows user is an idiot who barely knows how to turn PC on - there is a reason all tech supports worldwide ask if PC is connected to the outlet, or turned on whenever they receive a call from a customer), or hardware issues resulting from buying random cheap garbage.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 10:23:01 am
content: Quote from: asmi on June 10, 2021, 09:14:22 pmWell you can't be more wrong about that...I am using Linux specifically since 90s (was using SCO and HPUX before that)and since then... I had 0 ZERO issues keeping rolling setups customized by myself..ZERO issues in some decades is good in time and effort and money...As for the garbage.. I **WAS** once upon a time (before 00s at80s and 90s ) a DOS and WINdoooze programmer..It is just a total insanity - in a system wo sources or crippled sourcesand bugged drivers - to try to doSERIOUS INSTRUMENT and HARD stuffTotal insanity I got TOTAL rid off by the end of 90s.As of these "BRICKS" they sell today for these 99.99% stupid goonies..Well my 6y old nephew is a de facto MSCSE - MerdSoft Crock of Shit Expert ...He can barely read but he can do everything related with thosecartoon stickers or figurines... by just moving clicking pointing..install shitty video drivers to play his games..re-install shit OS by just using the stickers..everything with a cartoon sticker he can do...A real crock of shit expert... MSCSE... Now he can read and I amtrying to introduce him a real computer above a BRICK..Where he is already playing MINECRAFT and BRUTAL DOOM (99.99% time)He just evolved from that MSCSE...And I am doing whatever I can to introduce him to real computersnot stupid goonies bricks..Hes is already very fine ...Paul

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 10:42:07 am
content: Quote from: asmi on June 10, 2021, 09:09:03 pmI agree with that, but I didn't mean oddball combinations of software or hardware. For example:https://www.tomsguide.com/news/windows-10-may-update-is-officially-a-disaster.I know of several companies which were effected by the printing problems because they have the "wrong" printers, standard office printers from well known vendors. Talk to IT departments and they will tell your their latest horror story about Windows updates.However, this is going off topic.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 10:46:46 am
content: Quote from: madires on June 11, 2021, 10:42:07 amNah.. not off topic...Corporate IT is the closest thing related to the NAZI REICH ...Absolute mindless terror and lack of sense..Kinda flow of bad habits or practices and no one questions itPaul

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 02:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on June 11, 2021, 10:23:01 amNow you are just straight up lying. Not interested in continuing this conversation. Move on.On topic - if you can go for cross-platform - go for it. But please keep in mind that this move is going to cost you quite a bit of money and time, because you will need to test each and every release in all supported OSes, as well as deal with support cases coming from them. So you will need to think real hard if it makes sense from the business standpoint. Or you can go the way some other software vendors going - don't support it officially, but give users an option of going for it at their own risk. Average Linux user out of necessity is way more PC-literate than Windows or MAC user, so this approach might work and a lot of users will appreciate not locking out that opportunity.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 02:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 11, 2021, 10:42:07 amI worked in/with IT departments a lot, so no need to tell me about that. Good IT department always pre-test all updates in a sandbox to make sure they don't break anything - all big companies have a ton of oddball LOB applications which were developed over a decade years ago which they still use, so no sane IT department in it's right might will ever allow direct access to updates without such testing and verification. That's part of their job. So if someone hasn't done it's job, it's not a vendor's fault because you can't realistically expect them to test each and every configuration possible in the world. And as a software developer, I know that even if you test on a 10000 different HW/SW platforms, there is always going to be the 10001st one which won't work for one reason or another.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 03:22:47 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on June 11, 2021, 02:41:07 pmThanks for the insult.. but why would I do that?I have nothing really to gain lying about that...I started with a SLACKWARE distro around 1993..and it was (still is) so easy to keep rolling...That I do have some of that original stuff around..archives in the file system dated 1992 1993..some of the stuff requires ancient libc stuff to run...which I have ditched already...I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else about a simple factlike this..If you never ever tried a Slackware distro.. try one.You will see for yourself how simple and different it is.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 04:12:31 pm
content: I do not like even by chance to be taken by someonenot serious..So to satisfy the doubts of the issueHere some shots of MY DESKTOP TODAYRUNNING STUFF DATED 1993... 1995 ...perfectly as it was at that time...OpenLook window manager was the primary stuff runningat 1993... replaced by FVWM at 94.. then FVWM95 at 1995.And then folks started these KDE GTK and stuff by 2000sAll this stuff is still on my primary workstation as it was 199x..Running TODAY with KiCAD and some goods..So make no mistake about myself...PaulPS> for the curious.. I can run any of these and a dozen otherwindow mangers like desktops anytime on any of my systems..simple result of a clever rolling schema of keeping my systems..

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 07:08:50 pm
content: In the corporate engineering world, it has to be Windows. It just means you can send stuff to clients, or quickly get something onto a laptop for offsite testing etc.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 10:42:19 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on June 11, 2021, 07:08:50 pmThat depends entirely on your customers. I have a few customers who run on Linux and a Windows application is very cumbersome to use for them. As I wrote before: if you are serious about software deployability then make sure your software runs at least on Windows and Linux otherwise you'll miss out.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 07:12:39 am
content: Quote from: asmi on June 10, 2021, 03:12:34 pmSounds like trolling but I'll reply seriously just in case...For the record, I consider myself doing "actual work".I do initial design - component web research, spreadsheeting, SPICE simulations - on linux. This is actual work.Then I boot into Windows for PCB schematic&layout for obvious reasons (EDA software availability), and I know mechanical designers do the same. The "OS itself" IMHO really works worse than linux but workswell enoughto let me do the job, namely running the EDA monster, no problem here, it's ok. This is actual work as well.For firmware & other software development (actual work again!), I then again boot into linux because it just works for this workflow and does it so much better. I know the difference because I was a Windows-only guy up until around 2013. It was manageable, but it was different. Someone gave me a laptop with linux installed and I changed my MCU workflow into base GNU tools, command line, make automation and linux and it skyrocketed my productivity compared to Windows IDE crap. I was sold; now I'm the one who's called when "Actual Work" needs to be done.Being stuck in dualboot is manageable but not optimal. The Windows part seems to be some heavy hours during a few days to weeks in a large project.Because I do both HW and SW, and due to the fact SW is 99% of the time more work, the end result is more work in linux. If I was a HW-only guy, the chances are, I would run a single-boot Windows system; or maybe I forced myself to try KiCad for the fourth time. Nah, it would probably continue to suck.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 11:09:00 am
content: Same here except that I run WIndows stuff in a VM but that is only for text processing, schematics editing and some other minor tools. For the rest everything runs in Linux (including PCB design with Orcad Allegro). The same goes for firmware development. What takes less than a second to compile under Linux takes 20 seconds to compile on Windows. Same source code, same compiler, same IDE and same machine. Claiming Linux can't or isn't used for real work is utter nonsense. Why would so many companies (Xilinx, formerly Altera, Cadence, etc, etc) have Linux versions of their engineering software? Even Microsoft is forced to make quick progress to have Linux software to run in an integrated VM in order not to have Windows lose traction in the workstation market.