Will dimming incandescent bulbs with a rectifier diode cause noticeable blinking - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:21:00 pm
content: If I use a rectifier diode to dim incandescent light bulbs to around 50%, do you think it will cause noticeable blinking? A google search showed that some people suggested that the blinking might be noticeable, but they didn't seem certain about it; It either seemed conditional or they weren't speaking from experience.What do you think? Is it conditional? Will the blinking be noticeable?I have a halogen fixture that is dimmed with a 1N4007 diode (this is what originally gave me the idea), and I don't notice any blinking at all.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:25:23 pm
content: I don't think you will see anything. Thermal devices like a light bulb can't respond fast enough I would think.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:33:57 pm
content: You will not see noticeable blinking with incandescent lamps. They emit light as a function of the filament temperature, and the time constant is long enough that temperature will remain steady even if every other half-cycle if blocked. This should be intuitive since triac dimmers work in a similar way and don't cause visible (or really, any) blinking with incandescents. I have some disc-shaped devices labelled as "rectifiers" that were sold once upon a time as bulb life extenders. They do not cause any blinking.You can satisfy yourself that it isn't a flicker-fusion effect, and the luminance is actually steady by blocking a lamp with an electric fan. If there was blinking faster than the eye could see, there would be nodes in the chart of brightness vs fan speed. If the brightness is flat independent of fan speed then it really is steady.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:37:30 pm
content: Thanks for the responses!!Quote from: wilfred on November 22, 2015, 10:30:55 pmThe halogen fixture had a Low and High setting on a 3-way switch. One day the Low setting stopped dimming the bulbs (they were displaying full brightness, just like the High setting), so I opened it up to see what happened.It ended up that the 1N4007 was visibly burned. The diode was connected to the Low side of the 3-way switch. When I replaced the diode, everything worked perfectly again, and the Low setting dimmed the lights just like before.I'm just a beginner in this stuff, so I don't know if I drew some wrong conclusions.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 11:48:25 pm
content: On 240V lamps you certainly can see a flicker, I have a 100W one with a diode in series that I use for charging batteries. Lower voltage lamps have thicker filaments so maybe you can't see any flicker in the USA with 120 V.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 11:55:45 pm
content: For me it depends.low wattage bubs I can see the flickering...Higher wattage bulbs and I don't notice it.Your mileage may vary...

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:15:37 pm
content: Thanks everyone for your input! I ordered a 1000V 10A diode (http://www.ebay.com/itm/171505136204) and am planning on using it to dim eight 60-watt 120v incandescent bulbs. The item should arrive sometime within the next 7 days. I'll post my results here once I try it.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:23:56 pm
content: May be marginal for inrush current. Your 60W lamps each need 1/2A current when running normally, but when cold their resistance will typically be ten times lower so they will each pull a 5A surge at switchon. With eight in parallel that's a 40A surge. Check the diode's datasheet carefully for its peak If rating and how long a surge it can withstand.

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:26:08 pm
content: Halogen lamps life expectancy drops significantly when dimmed. The lower filament temperature hinders the regeneration process.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:28:41 pm
content: Also, DC doesn't do them any favours (electromigration)

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 03:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on November 22, 2015, 11:55:45 pmYes, I can see flicker on C7 Christmas lamps due to variation on triac triggering.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 04:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 23, 2015, 12:23:56 pmThanks! I will keep this in mind, and will check the datasheets once I'm able to see the part numbers.Does anyone know of any other easy way to dim a line of AC incandescent bulbs to about half strength (I don't need it to be variable) by using very few components? I know they make all kinds of dimmer switches for this purpose, but I'm interested in learning how this can be done in other ways.My main purpose is that I want to remove a certain regular light switch and put a wireless 4-way latching relay there instead, so that I can control/automate the lights through my Arduino. The 3 options will be: Off, Full Power, and Half Power. If a proper rectifying diode is able to dim the lights to about 50%, this would be easy and ideal for me.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 04:44:16 pm
content: A series capacitor of the right value would dim without introducing any flicker. Motor run capacitors are rated suitably and usually cover roughly the right range of values.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 04:51:25 pm
content: Connect each pair of lamps in series for half power.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 05:33:19 pm
content: $3 gets you a cheap eBay triac dimmer, which will handle 2kW and which you can set and forget.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 05:59:41 pm
content: This is a very old trick to make the incandescent bulbs last almost forever with a diode in series. But in Germany with 230V and 50 Hz, we always have a flicker, no matter if it a low wattage or high power bulb. In the USA with 60 Hz and 115V I never noticed the flicker as much but it is still there.Both suggestions, to use a capacitor in series or a second light bulb work much better than a diode.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 06:15:11 pm
content: Thanks everyone!I'm interested in learning how to use a capacitor in series, and I was researching it for the last 10 minutes, but I feel like it's too complex for me for now. I'm still working on the beginners' electronics books.Is the main idea that the capacitor lowers the voltage across the circuit? If so, how do we know what kind of voltage drop would be able to dim eight 60-watt incandescents to anywhere between 40-60% of their regular output? Is it straightforward, like where 60 volts (instead of 120) would result in a 50% reduction of light output?Also, how do we calculate what size capacitor to choose?

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 06:59:43 pm
content: I found this information, and am curious what you guys think of it:Quotehttp://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/13464/Capacitors-as-AC-Voltage-Drop-Components

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 07:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on November 23, 2015, 04:21:47 pmAs Delta said, rewire the lamps as series pairs. It requires only a switch. It is cheap, simple, and reliable.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 07:36:36 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2015, 07:21:27 pmI would do this, but I want to be able to switch easily from full power to half power (and from an Arduino sending a wireless signal to a group of relays).

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 07:55:53 pm
content: X10 Dimmer module + an X10 interface for the Arduino. You get local manual control, a warranty and its code-compliant so it doesn't FUBAR your home insurance.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 09:36:58 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on November 23, 2015, 07:36:36 pmSwitch easily using a relay:

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 09:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 22, 2015, 11:48:25 pmI have heard of this, but thought of it somewhat of an old wives' tale (old sparkies' tale?). But now I have a car battery that refuses to take a charge I am thinking of giving it a go... I think I'll go for a 60w lamp as it's my first time!

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 11:05:01 pm
content: What about inductors. I know of one famous sign that had a motorized core that moved in and out. A primary of a transformer can be wired in series and low voltage secondary can be shorted for full brightness. Not necessarily small. Magnetic amps, two transformers in series controlled by a 9V battery and a pot."But now I have a car battery that refuses to take a charge I am thinking of giving it a go... I think I'll go for a 60w lamp as it's my first time!"I once started a car with a toaster and it made breakfast. Wish there was Kickstarter back then. Could have been a product!

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 12:08:17 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2015, 09:36:58 pmThanks for the info!The 8 lights I'm trying to control go around the room in a big "U" shape, with the long legs of the "U" about 30 feet long (with 4 bulbs spread out linearly on each long leg), and the short leg about 10 feet long. The wiring is run through exposed metal conduit.Do you have any suggestions for the best way to wire something like this up into series pairs, while being as conservative as possible with the wires? Would the most efficient way be to wire each adjacent bulb as a pair?Does having 70 feet of linear wiring make the series-pairs idea less practical?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 01:03:34 pm
content: Assuming they are currently all in parallel, all you need to do is split the live at the mid-point and run both lives back to the switch. On the diagram above's wires to the lamps, top and bottom wires are the two lives after splitting them and the middle wire is the existing neutral. Same number and type of bulbs each side of the split of course.Try two lights in series before you get into this. If you aren't happy with the brightness, you'd be out your time and the wire.If I had to do this without going X10, I'd use a series dimmer module, with a relay to short it out for full power, so I could set the brightness required. Leave off the knob and put it completely inside the wall box if you don't want anyone changing it.Read this:http://www.standardpro.com/product-information/halogen/faqs. There's a critical power level below which the glass capsule wall doesn't get hot enough for the deposited Tungsten to get scavenged by the halogen and operating in this region will vastly shorten bulb life by blackening and premature filament failure. You certainly should make your control system go to full power for several minutes after dimming before switching off if you want to avoid having to stock spare bulbs in case lots.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 02:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 24, 2015, 01:03:34 pmThis is really interesting to me. I had to concentrate for a long time before being able to understand it enough to ask questions.I already have a spare unused wire running through the first half of the conduit, because there used to be 2 light switches, 1 for each side of the room, and I combined them into 1 switch a few years ago.Forgive me for breaking this down and simplifying it, but could you please check over my reasoning here?-When the lights are turned on full power, the existing neutral acts like a regular neutral wire. So we have 2 hot wires (one for each side of the room) and 1 neutral wire.-When the lights are turned to half power, the neutral wire is disconnected from the box, and doesn't act like a regular neutral anymore. Instead, the neutral acts as a connector to create the series pairs. One of the previously-hot wires now acts as the new neutral, completing the circuit back at the box.Was I far off?Thanks for the info about the halogens. I had never heard that before, and it was good to learn. I'm actually planning on using regular incandescents here. The reason I had mentioned halogens earlier in thread is because I got the "rectifier diode as a dimmer" idea from a halogen fixture I had opened up to repair (it was this fixture here, which used a 1N4007 diode for the "Low" setting:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006SUZJM). The bulbs on those halogen fixtures seem to have good life spans to me, even though I'm running them on Low most of the time.I'm also still considering the idea to use a series dimmer module inside the box. But I'm really enjoying learning all these useful techniques, and I would like to understand them before I make a decision.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 02:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on November 24, 2015, 02:06:23 pmI think you've got it.QuotePlug in mains stuff: do what you like as long as it doesn't violate basic electrical safety. Hard-wired (permanently installed) mains stuff: Keep it as close to code compliance as possible and if its non-compliant, keep the weird stuff to a minimum in as few locations as possible so you can easily revert it to full code compliance. Otherwise, if you ever need an electrical inspection and get a hard-ass inspector, you are in for a world of $expensive$ grief.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 03:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 24, 2015, 02:43:20 pmExcellent advice! I would never do something like this to my regular house. I do these modifications to a unique rural cabin-like structure that nobody would ever live in and nobody would ever inspect.I was thinking about using a wireless relay like this for switching between off, low, and high power:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D56IX00,mainly because it's easy for me to send the wireless commands to the relays via my Arduino units.When that relay is set to "latching" mode, only 1 of the 4 relays is allowed to turn on. So if "A" is on and I press "B", "A" would automatically turn off while "B" is switched on.I'm not sure if it waits for the previous one to turn off before switching on a new one. The change happens so fast that I can't imagine they'd both be on for more than a few ms. I'm not sure what a good way is to test this (I don't have an oscilloscope yet). I'm planning on asking the manufacturer eventually.But either way I'd still be curious about the answer: IF 2 of the relays happen to both be on at the same time for a few milliseconds, would that be enough time to cause a short on my line when switching from "High" to "Low" power?This is my rough drawing of how I'm thinking about wiring it up (sorry I'm not good with schematics or diagrams):

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 04:15:24 pm
content: Why have you turned it around? You've now got the feed on the right, and its a disaster as if they are ever both on, its a dead short across the supply.I've annotated IanB's diagram for two separate relays:Note that A is shown ON and B OFF.With both off all lamps are off.Turn A on for dim.Turn B on for full,Turn both on by mistake and half the lamps light with full power.I suggest spitting the neutral as then there is less work taping wires to identify them as hot and keep it near code compliance + it keeps the switching on the hot side. Put an override switch actoss B and you will get at least *SOME* light in an emergency.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 04:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 24, 2015, 04:15:24 pmThank you!! The annotations were very helpful. I'm sorry I needed things to be explained to me so simplistically.I'm going to make a small test circuit using the same relay switch and small incandescent bulbs, before trying it out on the ceiling lights.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 04:36:51 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 24, 2015, 04:15:24 pmThanks for this additional information!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 08:08:34 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 23, 2015, 04:44:16 pmThat's a good idea.An inductive fluorescent lamp ballast would also do the trick.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 05:39:53 pm
content: What are your opinions about using short (1"-2") 20-gauge wires to make the connections to the relays? Is that generally considered acceptable because of the short distance? The max amps passed through the wires would be about 4 amps when the lights are on full power.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 06:01:09 pm
content: Don't even think about using 20 AWG wire. *NEVER* use any conductor rated for less current than the breaker or fuse feeding it. What's your local fire department's response time out at your cabin?

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 06:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 25, 2015, 06:01:09 pmThanks! Yes, everything is slow out here, even the fire department.I was pleased to find out that my relay screw terminals will handle 12 AWG. I'll probably use stranded so that there's less force on the parts.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 10:49:44 pm
content: I did a small test using two 60-watt bulbs on a table, and everything seemed to work fine.Then I hooked it up to the ceiling lights, and at first everything seemed fine. I was surprised it worked on the first try. I loved the brightness of the low-power mode.But then when I was switching between low power and off, there was a small explosion and the fuse tripped.This is how the back of the relay board looks:It looks like the 2 contacts that are blown were both the NC and the NO lines on the A relay (A meaning the same A as in Ian.M's annotated image above).Do you guys have any theories as to why this happened? The individual relays say they are rated for 12A at 125V. This is what the specs on the board say (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D56IX00):"-Max.Switching Voltage: 110VDC 240VAC. Max switching current:15A-Rated switching power: 1,875VA 360W for each relay"Is it possible that while the A contact is switching from NO to NC, somehow it creates a short?

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 10:54:04 pm
content: I should mention too that I was switching between the different modes (full, low, and off) a few times before it blew. It definitely didn't blow on the first try.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:03:04 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on November 25, 2015, 10:49:44 pmNC on the B relay is not connected to anything. How could it have current flowing through it?

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2015, 11:03:04 pmOops, I'm sorry! I meant the A relay. I'll try to edit my previous post.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:17:31 pm
content: I have some new data that might be helpful:When I was testing it with only two 60-watt bulbs on the tabletop, I heard a small "pop" when switching between the modes, and the dim setting didn't work anymore. I was thinking maybe one of the relays was defective, so I moved it over to a different relay (since the unit has 4 relays, and I only need 3), and it worked fine.Now I just tested it and found out that the original relay I was using for the dim setting (the one that broke earlier) when testing on the tabletop (for the "A" relay wiring in Ian's diagram above) doesn't switch anymore, and always stays in the NC position.I hope I explained that clearly enough. Basically there are 4 total relays on the board, and 2 different ones that were used as "A" broke.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:25:47 pm
content: From what you have described, it sounds like the NC contacts welded together. This might happen if the relay was used beyond its rated specification, or if the relay was not capable of the switching duty given in the product details.From your product link it states that the device can switch 15 A, and yet your picture shows the relay sitting on a circuit board with solder joints and copper traces intended to carry this current. My bullshit detector is rumbling at this point.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:30:50 pm
content: Here's an example of the kind of relay that would handle this duty:http://www.newark.com/omron-industrial-automation/ly2-12vdc/relay-dpdt-120vac-28vdc-15a/dp/42M2297

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2015, 11:25:47 pmVery interesting! Thanks for the response.I'm using 2 of these same relay modules in other places, but only for low-power DC (less than 100mA each relay).I'm curious about this question: Is there any possibility that some relays aren't supposed to have a 120v hot on the NO while there is a neutral on the NC (or vice versa)? Is it possible that that's too close when the relay is switching between on and off, and somehow there's a short from arcing or anything like that?

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2015, 11:30:50 pmI have ones just like that. Maybe that's what I'll try next. I can use a different way of switching it wirelessly, by having a wireless outlet apply 12v power to the coils.I think with that method I would have 1 (wireless) switch to turn the lights on and off, and a separate one to activate that relay, which would switch between Hi and Low modes. Does that sound feasible? I think I already have all the parts here.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:39:09 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on November 25, 2015, 11:31:53 pmThe thought occurred to me, but I'm not sure that's the problem. Relay contacts are supposed to be rated to interrupt a certain current at a certain voltage. I don't think it should matter if there is a voltage across the NC and NO contacts at the time of switching. When buying a branded relay I suppose it may be possible to call product support and verify if there is any problem using the relay in that configuration.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2015, 01:11:38 am
content: I tried using a large DPDT relay to switch the line between hot and neutral. I put the hot on one side, and the neutral on the other side of the relay, so that they were farther apart when switching.I was using the same wireless relay that I was using before, only I used it to turn the larger DPDT relay on and off. The DPDT I was using had a 120v coil. The only power going through the wireless relay was to energize the coil.At first everything seemed to be working wonderfully again. But after toggling the lights on and off a few times, I heard another "pop", and another relay blew on my wireless module. So now 3 of the 4 relays are blown!I'm wondering if it was just a faulty module. I have another similar one by a different manufacturer that I could test, but I would hate to blow that up right away because I'm overlooking a different problem.I also have a 12v and 5v DPDT relay that I could use instead of the 120v one, but I wonder if that would've made any difference.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2015, 04:16:19 am
content: I agree with IanB.Don't believe the ratings on cheap relay boards. Neither the tracks, nor the contacts are heavy enough for the claimed rating. If you reinforce the tracks with wire, they will typically switch an incandescent load of no more than 20% of their nominal rating and if you want them to last, 10%!. It sounds like your wireless relay module isn't even rated to switch inductive loads like a heavy duty relay coil.I believe the ratings are entirely bogus:"-Max.Switching Voltage: 110VDC 240VAC. Max switching current:15A""-Rated switching power: 1,875VA 360W for each relay"Its extremely rare to see so little derating for DC. I certainly wouldn't try to switch 15A at >24V DC with it. Relays don't care about the difference between Watts and VA. When closed, its the current that counts, when open its the voltage so the 360W 'rating' implies the relays cant handle more than 3A, possible only 1.5A if that was supposedly for a 240V AC circuit.I've run some numbers through a trace width calculator. The contact traces look to be about 0.1" wide. If the board is 1oz copper, they'll cook themselves off the board long before the current reaches 15A. If its 2oz, there'd be approximately a 45deg temperature rise. I doubt its 4oz copper which would be required for an acceptable temperature rise.Your relay with welded NC contacts is characteristic of a cheap relay trying to close on an excessive current. A 60W 120V bulb has a cold resistance of approximately 24 ohms, giving an inrush current of 5A. Contact bounce while closing + 5A current melted the contact faces enough for the to weld. Game over.The best thing to do with that P.O.S. relay board is return it as "not fit for purpose - failed while switching a 60W bulb". However if you are stuck with it, remove *ALL* the relays, and patch the coil drive connection to the terminal block so you can use good quality off-board relays. Measure the resistance of the coils of the relays you remove so you can determine the max coil current capability so you don't blow out the relay drivers. The removed relays should be given the big hammer treatment and trashed!Now you see why I recommended an X10 dimmer module. UL rated so it wont burn your cabin down, and if it craps out, warranty replacement is a phone call away.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2015, 05:03:29 am
content: Thanks for the help and the info, guys. @Ian.M, I'll definitely be taking a look at those X10 modules. But I really like to learn as many techniques as possible, and the process is just as important for me as the end goal. Already today I learned many useful things that'll probably be helpful to me in the future.I just blew 2 different large DPDT relays, like the Omron one that was linked above. One was 120V and the other had a 12V coil. Each one had a relay socket with screw terminals, and all the connections were clean. I was able to flip the lights between full power and half power successfully a few times, and just like previously the relays blew between toggles.Are you guys feeling certain that it's okay to put a hot and a neutral on each end of a relay's contacts? They seem awfully close to me. When the relay is switching between the 2, there's probably less than a millimeter of "empty" space in between the contacts.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2015, 05:25:22 am
content: It depends on the relay. If it comes from PRC, they'll print whatever rating you like on it, but the guts will be the same low voltage low current crap. If its a brand named relay from a reputable manufacturer, it will actually live up to its ratings. However, if your circuit has too much inductance, you'll probably need to add snubbers across the contacts to prevent arcing.If you use a heavy duty contactor it will certainly be rated for changeover switching line to line or line to neutral. However the one's I've used had a snap action with about 5mm travel on the moving contacts, with a double break (i.e. both ends of the moving contact opened) giving 10mm clearance. They also had separate moving contacts for NO and NC so that any arc couldn't blow across the gap between the fixed NO and NC contacts and cause a line short.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2015, 02:30:21 pm
content: I didn't want to mess with (or break!) relays anymore, so I ended up just adding a wireless on/off switch. I kept the lights on half-power mode, since I liked it so much. I'm glad you guys walked me through the wiring for putting them in series pairs. I've never done anything like that before.Probably the next experiment I do with having a full/half-power mode is when I get the rectifier diodes, hopefully within the next week or so.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2015, 04:02:01 pm
content: The specs for those relays is rather optimistic. The NO contact alone is rated for 15A 250VAC use, the NC contact however is rated much lower, typically 5A at 250VAC, as the closing of the contact is faster than the opening. Also using the relay to switch with a potential difference on the 2 contacts requires a different relay, you need one with 2mm minimum of contact separation when they are open, so that the arc created when it opens can extinguish, and you need to use another contact set on the same armature to do the normally closed operation, so that there is no possibility of the arc created during opening can be attracted to the other pole.I use the same relays for 250VAC use, though only as a single pole switch. Doing a changeover will cause it to arc over between poles as the clearance is small, typically 1mm. You want to use a double pole relay instead, so that there is no way to arc over. Preferably a mains rated contactor, which has double break contacts so that even if one does weld shut temporarily the second one will still open, and the torque created during this will break the weld, while if it does weld shut totally it will not operate the other contact set at all. A little more expensive than the $1 relay, but will operate reliably for decades. You probably will use the single pole relay as a drive for the coil, as they typically do not come with 5V coils, typically 24VDC, 24VAC, 36VAC, 48VDC, 48VAC, 60VDC, 115VAC, 115VDC, 220VAC for the most common types.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2015, 05:43:43 pm
content: The problem with using a double pole relay as a changeover is if one of the contacts welds. Depending on the contact stiffness and travel, operating force etc, you may end up with the NC contacts welded but the NO contacts still closing, and it all gets exciting again. That obviously cant happen with a single pole changeover relay, though that isn't much help if it simply arcs straight across.How the relays on that board ever manage to have a 240V AC rating, I do not know!

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 06:03:09 pm
content: @SeanB: Sorry I was late to respond, but I just wanted to say thanks for the info about the contact separation and the arcing. I was fortunate enough to be able to use the last working relay of the wireless board (of which 3/4 of the relays were burned from my experiments), and the relay is successfully working switching a 5 amp load at 120v. I'm glad I didn't have to toss the entire thing!I finally received the rectifier diodes today, and quickly wired one up to a 60 watt incandescent bulb. There was definitely noticeable blinking! I wonder if the blinking would eventually get better if the bulb is on for a longer period of time and is able to get warmer. Maybe I can test that later. Would the number of bulbs attached to the circuit affect the blinking?So far it seems that wiring in series pairs allowed a much more pleasant light output than the diode would have.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2015, 02:11:43 pm
content: Today I used the rectifier diodes to create a switch that can dim 250-watt heat lamps, and it worked really well. There is no noticeable blinking like I had with the 60-watt standard incandescents, I'm guessing because the high heat keeps the brightness more stable.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 09:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on November 22, 2015, 11:55:45 pmThis is the correct answer. Everyone's perception is different and some can see it and some won't. I say won't because generally people can see 30 Hz flicker but most don't pay attention and fail to notice it. Also your eyes are more sensitive to motion that is off to one side of your direct field of view because the different sensitivity of the rods and cones in your eyes. And different bulbs have different amounts of persistance that plays into it too. But let's just say that there was a REASON that electric power utilities eventually chose60 Hzsystems! There used to be 25 Hz AC power systems as well but they didn't last long!Visible 30 Hz flicker drives me up the wall!

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 02:40:46 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on December 17, 2015, 09:50:13 pmAmen. Thank god we all use 60 Hz now!