Rigol DS4000 series  VS  Keysight 3000T  Better Value? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Thunk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 12:13:19 pm
content: I've looking for a good mid range 4 channel oscilloscope. Electronics has been my hobby for a while and I've been using an old Tektronics ebay scope that is now having troubles. Somehow I managed to get the CFO of the family (my wife) to give me permission. Anyway...At one point I decided on the Rigol DS4024. Base price is $2,650 USD plus I need the serial decode package for $605 USD (by the way, they have a special running now where you get all the serial decodes for the price of one). Good scope with lots of features at a total of 3,255 USD.The other contender is the Keysight 3014T (100Mhz vs 200Mhz in Rigol to keep the price down a bit). Base price is 3,990 plus the serial decode $1100 for a total of $5,090 USD. Way out of the ballpark. Couldn't even consider it at that price not to mention how much the other software upgrades cost...But then I found out Keysight is having a special where you getall the software upgrades for free! All those upgrades would cost more than the scope. Suddenly, the 3000T series became a much better value. And the price became comparable at 3,990 vs 3,255.So, given the quality of the scopes, options, and price which do you believe is the better value? The 3000T's 4 meg memory is the only thing about that scope that is sub par, but the 1M update rate...Thanks!Thunk

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 12:41:59 pm
content: I believe these particular Keysight (I keep wanting to type Agilent...what a stupid new name!) scopes are bandwidth upgradeable. Double check on that. Also, 4M points is not standard...it's an option. Do you get that for free to? I could live with 2Mpts, especially with segmented memory. Does it have segmented memory (also an option, I think)?Anyhow, the large memory depth of Rigol is gimmicky, IMHO. If you don't absolutely need the 200MHz, this sounds like a slam dunk decision for the Keysight. I may be a bit biased, of course. I've been using HP and Agilent products for 20 years, and seeing those names (and now Keysight...ugh...) gives me some serious warm fuzzies. While my cheapy Rigol scope is a steal for what I paid for it, it's just not in the same class as a Keysight product and doesn't instill nearly the same confidence. I'm always sanity checking what I see on the screen with the Rigol.The Keysight with the touch screen is the bees knees. I wish I could come up with some business related project to do that could justify such a scope.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 02:38:19 pm
content: I agree with John. At the 3,990 vs 3,255 I'd go for the Keysight. 1 million vs 100k waveforms per second is worth it.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 02:43:37 pm
content: I have the 4000, don't much care for it.See here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/Unless you need the hackability (maybe the Agilent can be hacked as well, I don't follow it), go for the Agilent.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 04:35:42 pm
content: I was in doubt between the Agilent 3000 and the Hameg HMO3522 (350MHz)I bought the Hameg (around 3 years ago) and I use it every day. Not a single problem. If I had to choose again I would buy the Hameg again. I had a Rigol before the Hameg, the first 100MHz scope they made, bought it for to much money. I hated that scope so much I gave it away.Why everybody wants a cheap Rigol I can understand. You do not have much choice in that range. The gap with a real scope is big. But I do not understand why people who are looking for a serious scope even think about buying the expensive Rigols. Even if it performs well (while new), it is still a Rigol.After I bought my Hameg they found some thing that could be a minor problem in some cases. They send me a new box, collected it the next day and brought it back a few days later, upgraded, calibrated and with a new printed manual. At no cost !!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 04:43:05 pm
content: I'd go for the Keysight as well. IMHO Chinese scopes are good if you want something low end but if you spend 4 digits of dollars/euros you are going to be dissapointed by the Chinese.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 04:46:37 pm
content: definitely the Keysight!In Germany right now, you get all 17 options for FREE, if you buy the scope new.http://www.datatec.de/ac00239.htm

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 04:51:36 pm
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on July 04, 2015, 04:35:42 pmYeah, that's pretty much it right there. For under $400, my 1054Z is unmatched and it does everything I need it to do (I mostly play with audio applications). If I were spending more than maybe $1000 or $2000, Rigol isn't even on my radar. There are just too many high end scopes in roughly the same range.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 06:19:42 pm
content: I get the op is strapped for cash and he wants a good scope for non serious apps and unpaid work? That being the case just get a Rigol 1000 series scope, everyone swears by them and it very unlikely he will run out of bandwidth.I have a DS1104Z and it does everything I want it to do, never hit the bandwidth limit yet.Even so, with this scope it has features which I forget how to use.I've just been looking at Keysights 3000 series, £2700.00+20%vat, this scope has that many features, it's simply scary, will you ever need or use them?, and how long will it take to learn all of the features and then when it is needed 6 months down the line you've forgotten how to turn the scope on.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 08:08:57 pm
content: I love my DS4014, with the tequipment discount and them dropping the price a bit from what it used to be, I don't think it is a bad value at all. It can be easily unlocked. You've got two real ADC's so you can run two channels at 4gsa/s or four channels at 2gsa/s. I don't doubt that it is NOT in the same class as the Agilent, an Agilent with tons of free options would certainly be attractive.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 08:26:43 pm
content: Quote from: Thunk on July 04, 2015, 12:13:19 pmIf I had to choose between the two then I'd take the Keysight any day. The Rigol DSO4k is a pretty basic scope which in some areas is really awfully poor (i.e. FFT which uses only a few kpoints, no search functionality for the sample memory, ) while accordiing to some DS4k owners I know even with the latest update still suffers from firmware issues. It's essentially a 4ch version of the DS2k.However, the big question is if it really has to be Rigol or Keysight? Why not a LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000?http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=466It's a much better scope than the Keysight DSOX3kT (and even more so than the Rigol DS4k) in any way (10M memory, and much better analysis tools), and for what it can do it's really pretty modestly priced (and LeCroy also often offers some additional discounts).In my opinion at the moment there's nothing better in this price range.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 08:27:27 pm
content: Have you looked at the 2000A series from Keysight? Very similar to the 3000 series, but doesn't have the touch or a few other things like higher bandwidth. But from your post, it seems 200MHz is plenty. Moreover, the 2002A (I have a review coming) is about £800-£900, and is hackable (verified by me) to the 200MHz, 4MPts memory, MSO, all options model. I would recommend spending a little more for the 4 channels though.EDIT: 1Mpts (sorry)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 08:56:20 pm
content: The Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 base models are loss-leaders. You'll have to add a few options to make it actually useful but that increases the price a lot.

author: AutomationGuy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 09:34:14 pm
content: There is not too many options to a Wavesrufer 3000. Just MSO, function generator and serial decoder.It has lots of measurement functions and some statistics. Plus 1GHz FFT. Many documentation features as well. The function generator is not realy needed anyway. You get better external.But you hardly get a wavesurfer for less than 3000€.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 09:55:46 pm
content: With serial decoding (which doesn't include CAN!) and the MSO options the 200MHz version of the Wavesurfer 3000 costs over 5500 euro ex. VAT (I've got a quotation earlier this year). The options make close to 40% of the price! I actually also need CAN decoding so add an extra 890 euro to the price for that and the options make up for almost 50% of the price. I dare the people who claim they can get them cheaper to make these scopes available for less money (or).

author: AutomationGuy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 10:10:09 pm
content: I paid for my Wavesurfer 3024 + MSO + FG 5K8€ incl. VAT in germany.There is two serial decode options one for SPI/RS232 which is WS3K-EMB and one for CAN/LIN which is WS3K-AUTO.They each are abouts 1K€. I don't need them yet. But you can get bandwidth upgrades as well.The scope has many features which ease my work a bit. I used to work with LeCroy at customer sites and I always liked their scopes.You can get the wavesurfer 3024 without options for 3800€ incl. VAT.

author: Thunk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 02:01:00 pm
content: WoW, thanks for all the replies/suggestions!My main requirements for the scope are:4 channel200 Mhz (or 100 expandable to 200 Mhz)SPI & I2C at a minimum upgradable to I2S (I dabble in music / guitar / instrument effects)FFT or spectrum analyzer ability at lower frequencies (typically audio, but occasionally higher -- say 100Mhz at most)Price: under 4k (lower the better, of course)Various trigger / math functions that all scopes come with now so I won't list themHere is what I'm reading from above:Rigol- Don't bother at this price rangeKeysight- Can't go wrong with the 3000T, solid contender- Currentfreesoftware upgrades include the AWG, freq counter, all decoding, etc.- Can buy 100Mhz and upgrade to 200Mhz- Very nice hardware FFT (not software)Teledyne/LeCroy- I haven't researched these because I heard they are rebranding a cheap Chinese scope as their own. No idea which models are good.- People have suggested their 3000 series, but they don't show scope prices or option prices so it's hard to compare (maybe I missed it on the site?)- Are they bandwidth software upgradable? Can I get a 100Mhz and upgrade it later to 200 or more?- Obviously I have homework investigating theseTektronix- Well, after watching Dave's review of the MDO4000 ... more bad points than good points IMO.- Let me know if anyone uses this scope please. I could use another opinionBack in the day Tektronix was the bees knees; if you were anyone you owned a Tektronix scope (or HP). It's funny nobody mentioned them on this thread ... must indicate something...

author: AutomationGuy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 02:24:35 pm
content: You can find LeCroy prices in DigiKey.Which budget scope is not build in china? Yes LeCroy labels the wavesurfer as a budget scope.Your Apple products are build in china as well.Btw my scope has a calibration protocol from the US. Final assembly was probably in US.200 MHz is the minimum bandwidth you can get at the wavesurfers.Look at TEquipment for "WS3024-BW-500" if you wanne know more about bandwidth upgrades. Never ordered one yet.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 02:45:20 pm
content: Tek scopes are nice, especially their lower end scopes. When you start getting in the $3000 to $4000 range...the more serious scopes...Agilent's scopes are just better overall in my opinion, but Tek scopes still hold their own. Anytime there's a real choice to be made between Agilent and anyone else, Agilent nearly always comes out on top. There are exceptions, of course. Keithley comes to mind, but Keithley doesn't even bother making a bench scope.I really wonder how all these other scope manufacturers keep their lines alive. Teledyne Lecroy for example. Why would anyone buy a Teledyne Lecroy scope? In 20 years I can truthfully say that I have NEVER seen a Teledyne Lecroy oscilloscope in person. Ever. Every lab I've ever worked in has been packed with HP/Agilent and Tektronics scopes. Keithley and Agilent meters. Agilent power supplies. Even GW Instek power supplies.It's really hard for me to imagine how anyone looking for a new entry level scope ends up with anything but a Rigol, and how anyone looking for midrange and better scopes ends up with anything but an Agilent, or maybe a Tektronix.

author: AutomationGuy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 02:51:46 pm
content: I have been working for many big companies in germany and switzerland and they have often LeCroy in the high end range.I think LeCroy used to be a swiss company. Not anymore its teledyne now. Thats why you don't find them often in the US.But you are right their scopes are not in the entry level.We don't have many Agilent/Keithley scopes in german companies.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 03:05:24 pm
content: I wonder how it is elsewhere? Lecroy seems to be practically nonexistent in the US.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 03:05:57 pm
content: LeCroy are American.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 03:43:19 pm
content: Anything in particular wrong with the DSO-X 2002A? £900 for 2 channels, all options (hacked obviously), or ~£1400 for 4 channels. Maybe they don't do I2S? Not as many math options?Tek scopes are not great at the entry level: expensive, less features...I'n sure Wuerstenchund (or whatever his name is) will tell you about Lecroy!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
content: I'd go for the 4 channel scope. Even if it is just because you get the double memory length when using 2 channels (1 from 1&2 and 1 from 3&4).

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 08:17:26 pm
content: Wikipedia has an entry on the LeCroy roots.QuoteIt was an American company making them for CERN. I just think the popularity has to do with the the target demographic. LeCroy seems to cater more to scientific research while Tek and Keysight have a reputation with Engeneeirs.If I was getting a mid range scope I have no idea what I would get. Would try to avoid a Windows scope though, which could be challenging. I have nightmares from supporting windows environments in the late 90s, and ever since then I am allergic to anything Microsoft.

author: AutomationGuy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 08:28:35 pm
content: Yes I know I was wrong with my assumption.The european head quater of LeCroy is in Geneva Switzerland close to the CERN. But it always was an American company.But anyway all of my customers use LeCroy in the high end domain. They do scopes up to 100GHz.Many companies I worked for have all kinds of scopes (LeCroy,Tek,Yokogawa,Hameg) but I haven't seen Agilent yet in a german company.Edit: I have seen on many LeCroy Windows

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 09:48:28 pm
content: I have a DS4014 and am very happy with it. I'm sure that the Agilent and LeCroy scopes are better, but they cost more.The FFT is a weakness, so considering you are a hobbyist like me, I would be a bit creative and spend the money like this:* DS4104 $2300* SA44B spectrum analyser $919 <- No doubt there are better options for audio than this, I'm an RF guyThat satisfies your main requirements and you can come in $500 under budget and have $200 to take the wife out to dinner.

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 11:35:48 pm
content: I would also recommend the 3000T. I didn't see anyone mention support yet, but my experience with Agilent/Keysight customer support has been top notch. This is just as important as the device itself, at least in my opinion.On the other end of the scale, my experience with Rigol customer support has been awful. I won't go near anything Rigol for this reason alone.I've evaluated the Tek MDO4000 and found that the UI was extremely slow and clunky, particularly when it was doing a lot serial protocol decoding. If that's your intended use, I would count that out too.No opinion on the LeCroy; never used one.Someone mentioned the Keysight X2000A series. Read the datasheet and compare carefully. It has some non-obvious limitations, like not being able to decode serial protocols attached to the digital channels.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 05:20:05 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on July 05, 2015, 08:17:26 pmYes, it will be. Keysight's DSOX2k/3k/4k run WindowsCE, the WaveSurfer 3000 runs Windows7 Embedded. IIRC the Tek MDO3k runs on Linux, as does the Rigol.Not that it makes a difference as the user only sees the scope's UI anyways.QuoteSure, because nothing has really changed since Windows95, right?Most mid-range and all high-end scopes run Windows instead of other OS platforms for a reason. This aside, most corporate networks are Windows based, and use Windows backends (Windows Server, Exchange) for their important stuff. Windows is also no longer an extension for MSDOS, this line died over 15 years ago. Modern Windows is based on WindowsNT which is al lot more stable and reliable than DOS-based Windows variants like Windows95. Go figure.As far as scopes go, I'm mostly working with high end scopes, which means Windows scopes, since HP/Agilent came out with the original Infiniium running Windows 95 (which was shit, admittedly). I've never seen a problem with a scope running some variant of WindowsNT (W2k, XP, Vista, W7 etc) which was caused by Windows and not by a hardware or driver problem.For low end scopes like a Rigol DS4000, Keysight DSOX3000T or LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 the OS is probably by far the least important parameter when choosing between them.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 05:33:57 am
content: Quote from: MarkL on July 05, 2015, 11:35:48 pmLeCroy's support is top, in my experience at least as good as Agilent's/Keysight's support. LeCroy scopes are supported for 7 years after the specific model is no longer made, which is longer than what Agilent/Keysight supports many of their devices for. After that they offer repair on a "best effort" basis (which means as long as parts are available they can fix it). LeCroy still repairs 9300 Series scopes, and these scopes stopped production around 1998.In addition, scopes that are inside the 7yr support windows can also be fitted with new manufacturer warranty. That means you can buy a second hand LeCroy scope i.e. on ebay and then send it to LeCroy, and as long as the factory seal is still in place and the scope passes calibration you can then buy manufacturer warranty (1/2/3yrs, or longer for some models) for it.I also found that spare parts are often noticeably cheaper with LeCroy than with Agilent.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 06:17:52 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on July 06, 2015, 05:20:05 amI supported Windows NT/2000, half of our servers were FreeBSD and the other half was Windows, being woken up in the middle of the night was always a Windows issue. Anyways those years of lost sleep are the reason for my subjective bias. Under the hood they still use the windows registry and its still a proprietary OS. Anyways don't want to derail the thread, it's a subjective preference. I am sure they are fine for their intended purpose, I just avoid it like a plague, because of the scars.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 06:33:29 am
content: In my experience Windows on a piece of test equipment doesn't have to be a bad thing. It often allows to interface to other software easely and security is not really a problem as long as you don't use the internet browser on the scope or install dubious software.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 09:56:17 am
content: Quote from: Thunk on July 05, 2015, 02:01:00 pmIf you want I2S then it probably has to be the Keysight as neither the Rigol DS4000 nor the LeCroy WaveSurfer support I2S.But I'd consider if not just getting some cheap USB device as I2S decoder isn't a better alternative anyways.QuoteFFT is really bad on the Rigol as it only supports a few thousand points (IIRC 4kpts). The DSOX3kT uses up to 64kpts for FFT which isn't great but still a lot better than the meagre 4kpts of the DS4000.The LeCroy WaveSurfer uses 1Mpts.QuoteWell, the Rigol is pretty primitive in this regard (few triggers and primitive math). Both Keysight DSOX3kT and LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 offer much more in these areas. The WaveSurfer also comes with WaveScan which is a very flexible tool to find glitches or any other signal anomaly. It's probably best described as some kind of very flexible trigger, although it works with realtime data as well as data in the sample memory.QuoteAs to FFT see above. It's much better than what the Rigol offers but that's because FFT on the Rigol is so poor for a scope of this day and age and not because it's that great on the Keysight. 64kpts is still pretty low for FFT, but I guess that (similar to the low sample memory of only 4M) is a limitation of the old scope platform and its slower processing architecture (the DSOX3kT is a slighlty improved DSOX3k which came out around 2012).QuoteYes, they do. The LeCroy WaveAce Series are rebranded Siglent scopes, and they are crap (the hardware is fine but the Siglent firmware is shit), plain and simple. But these are bottom-of-the-barrel scopes, and I guess LeCroy slowly realized that it burnt their reputation.The WaveSurfer 3000 is manufactured by Siglent for LeCroy but the software comes from LeCroy, and it's a really good scope at a decent price. There have been a few discussions here so use the search function and you'll find more information.However, the WaveSurfer 3000 is more a competitor to the Keysight DSO-X4000 Series than the 3000 Series.QuoteYes, they are.However, I recommend to just forget about bandwidth upgrades. They are rarely worth their money, no matter what manufacturer. Buy the bandwidth you need in the foreseeable future now, and later when you find that you need even more then sell the scope and get a new one which has the larger bandwidth. There's little point investing hundreds of dollars in the upgrade of a scope that by the time you want to upgrade is pretty much outdated when you can sell the old scope and use that money plus the money for the upgrade to buy a new model which will also perform better.QuoteA good starting point are the spec sheets:Keysight DSO-X 3000T:http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-0140EN.pdf?id=2545408LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000:http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-datasheet.pdfhttp://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-fact-sheet.pdfBTW: the WaveSurfer recently got a DVM display mode (similar to the one on the Keysight) as a free upgrade for all WS3k scopes, and the optional signal generator in the scope is now a full Arbitrary Waveform Generator, again through a software update (which is free for owners of the FG option). Both things aren't mentioned in the data sheets.QuoteTektronix really was the technology leader in analog scopes, which also earned them their reputation which they are still benefitting from. But as far as DSOs are concerned, Tek was never a front runner. They had some decent scopes, and were the first offering scopes in the typical lunchbox format, however technology-wise they were mostly trailing behind others, notably LeCroy which is probably closest to being Tek's equivalent for DSOs.The MDO3000/4000 might not be a bad scope if you need a single device which includes scope and spectrum analyzer, however the specs of the latter part is pretty poor, and for the price of a MSO3k with 3GHz SA you'll probably get two separate devices with overall better performance.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 11:17:03 am
content: Quote from: AutomationGuy on July 05, 2015, 08:28:35 pmInteresting observation.When I visit my German customers, I see:1. HAMEG2. Tektronix3. AgilentI think I have never seen a LeCroy scope in action in Germany.Lately I see lots more Agilent/Keysight.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 12:06:22 pm
content: QuoteI looked at the advanced math and trigger specs in the Keysight 3000T document linked above and compared with my DS4014. They actually seem pretty comparable in both.What am I missing?

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 01:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on July 05, 2015, 09:48:28 pmYou can get it for 6% less than this using a certain discount. $2162.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 02:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on July 06, 2015, 12:06:22 pmThe Keysight with the touch display does zone triggering, I believe...which is incredibly cool.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 02:22:42 pm
content: QuoteAnd you can unlock all the decoders as well as the full 500MHz bandwidth using the available keygen - if your moral doesn't stop you of course (mine didn't...).

author: I4E
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 02:23:17 pm
content: Just to clarify someone else's point above. Some of the Rigol DS4000 series scopes do have upgradable bandwidth.Have a lovely day everyone!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 02:44:24 pm
content: Almost anything that was said about the Rigol DS4000 seems valid, but I think it is an absolutely fine scope if the price is right. I just got my DS4014 (no options) from Rigol's clearance bin (North America only, though) for a lot less than the DS4012, and it is a very balanced four channel scope. The offer was even more sweet as it came with four brand spanking new 500MHz passive probes.Does it have bugs? Yes, some annoying. Does it have a smaller FFT window? Yes - it is in fact 2048 points due to the crap Analog Devices DSP in it. Does it have deep memory? Yes, and despite there is no search, the memory navigation is a breeze with the jog dial. Does it allow for bandwidth upgrades? Yes, up to 500Mhz. Does it have a limited set of decoder options? Yes, although I figured I can probably workaround this by triggering the signal on a decent USB-based LA to be purchased later.Quote from: hendorog on July 06, 2015, 12:06:22 pmWuesterschund's comment about the limited math is that LeCroy's math is really advanced. However, the DS4000 is a good middle ground as equations can be created from scratch.Based on Wuesterschund's great reviews of the LeCroy oscilloscopes in this forum, I put this brand into the pool when I was fiercely searching for an oscilloscope. I was limited by budget (<$2k USD) and searched for options from several brands (LeCroy's LT364M or L/374 M or L/384M or L;Tek's TDS744/784D, TDS3054; Agilent's 54825, DSOX2002) but all of them had highs and lows. Heck, I even had my eye on a Wavesurfer 44MXs-A with an initial bid right on my budget, but it obviously went for a lot more.Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2015, 06:33:29 amI agree, nctnico, although IMO it was a big turn off when I saw the aforementioned Wavesurfer with ESET NOD32 30-day trial installed... (I love this AV, but that only evidenced the risk is always lurking).Quote from: MarkL on July 05, 2015, 11:35:48 pmPerhaps it was Rigol North America or your particular experience, but the service and support I got from them was really good.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 02:55:49 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 06, 2015, 02:44:24 pmDid you see my post here about this?Glad it came with the four 500M Rigol probes for you. It sure was a great price as I recall.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 05:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: AutomationGuy on July 04, 2015, 09:34:14 pmYeah, in Germany (which for many things is a pretty expensive place), but the OP is not in Europe but in the US, and there the WS3k actually starts at $2,999 (approx 2700€).Quote from: nctnico on July 04, 2015, 09:55:46 pmMaybe, but didn't you get these quotes from some T&M resellers in your country and not directly from LeCroy?QuoteEven here in the UK LeCroy regularly does some deals where you get scopes like the WS3k with many/all options for little more than the basic price, or even for the list price of the naked scope. They also regularly sell ex-demo units which come with many/all options and which are priced pretty low, despite being less than 6 months old.US prices are even lower, and because LeCroy wants to get more WS3000 scopes out there they are very flexible on price. Why do you think Keysight now offers all options for their "new" DSOX3000T for free? LeCroy puts quite a bit of pressure on them.But hey, see it this way, there are other benefits of living in the Netherlands, even when low T&M prices might not be part of it

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 05:24:15 pm
content: If Lecroy wants their scopes out there they should do a promotion and advertise with it otherwise their 'promotions' are just hearsayI hate having to haggle for a good price; I regard it disrespectful towards customers.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 05:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on July 06, 2015, 02:55:49 pmSorry, I somehow missed it. Hopefully we are not the only ones that are actually happy with it, or I will start suspecting the issue is on us...In any case, hopefully Rigol will keep investing resources to continuously improve the DS4000 FW.Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2015, 05:24:15 pmHaha... nctnico, if I did not haggle with the damn service operators here (phone, internet, cable TV, insurance, you name it) I would go bankrupt. Same rules are applicable for finished goods ranging from TVs to T&M gear to cars...

author: jboard146
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 05:51:59 pm
content: I've get the DS4000 in a work is is "ok".If i had to buy another scope it would be a Tek MDO3000 or Keysight MSO3000.The serial decoding SUCKS, the FFT sucks, and the LAN/USB software SUCKS. If you think you might want to use any of these features look else where.The hardware isn't the problem. It is all just crappy software or software issues.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 05:59:28 pm
content: I need to get a blog so someone will send me a Lecroy scope to play around with.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 06:00:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2015, 05:24:15 pmWhen you got your quotes, did you even talk to LeCroy, or did you just ask your local resellers for quotes?QuoteNo offense but there's an old saying in this industry (T&M) which goes that only morons pay list priceHaggling has been a pretty standard thing in dealings with the big names for decades, and is pretty much expected. If that's beneath you then that's fine, but then don't complain when you're paying over the odds.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 06:03:13 pm
content: Quote from: jboard146 on July 06, 2015, 05:51:59 pmLike with most Chinese kit. Rigol (as well as Siglent) has shown that they can produce decent hardware, however like most Chinese manufacturers they are pretty poor with software.But then, after having seen an MDO3000 fail because of it's firmware, I'm not sure that this scope will be much better.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 08:29:33 pm
content: QuoteIt would be interesting to know some more about this from people with experience of it - which companies are more open to it, and can a hobbyist expect to get a discount?Its annoying that the brand names don't publish their prices. I am sure it turns people away, as the old rule applies: if you have to ask the price you can't afford it. So if they are prepared to negotiate then there is an upside I guess.Of course if you are a large company with much high end equipment already then they knock on your door not the other way around. Which makes it really easy.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 09:08:27 pm
content: QuoteI work for a large company with a fair bit of high end test gear and what usually happens (in the engineering labs) is that the big TE names will try and contact our engineers by various means and try and ply us with offers. Eg, they may phone us on an individual basis or arrange some kind of roadshow demo in a large meeting room where they basically show off dozens of items of test gear and try and ply engineers with various freebie/promotion treats. Sadly, we are no longer allowed to accept any such treats under recent rule revisionsHowever, price is rarely mentioned at this stage. They try and find out what we (may) need and then try and offer us extended loans/trials of anything we might be interested in. These free trials can easily last 6 months or more even on big ticket items.But usually, a new project will require a certain amount of test gear and if it isn't available within the business already then we either hire it or (if we need it long term) the engineer goes 'cap in hand' to the project manager with a plea to buy said item(s) of test gear. The next stage is to make a valid business case for the equipment and if this gets approved by the beancounters then it gets purchased.I'm not sure how much haggling gets done by our purchasing department or how successful it is. The engineer rarely offers alternatives to the desired pieces of kit and the buyer in the purchasing dept really won't know much about what they are buying apart from maybe having a list of addon options for each item of test gear.However, in the production/test dept it is probably very different and we probably buy test gear in large batches and there would be a fair bit of price negotiation involved in this.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 11:00:06 pm
content: Great summary, thanks.So 'easy' is not the right word - its easy to get the reps attention, but the process to actually get the gear is much harder and longer.QuoteJust as an aside, in the software development world I have observed this is another driver to use open source software.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 11:21:26 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on July 06, 2015, 08:29:33 pmI could afford it and prices can be found on various websites but if they don't give me a good deal straight away I rather spend my money on Ebay (which I did). What is the use of asking for a quotation if you get the same price you can find at Farnell, Digikey, et al?

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2015, 11:32:32 pm
content: QuoteProbably the nearest I ever get to 'haggling' is asking a rep what alternatives are available and usually this means they offer a cheaper deal on an ex rental or ex demo version of the kit with some kind of warranty.But I'm not expected to haggle at this point. Firm pricing wouldn't be discussed here. I would just present the various alternatives to the project manager and this info would get repeated in any subsequent 'business case for purchase' the manager would then present to the beancounters if the cost was beyond the authorisation limit of the project manager.During the approval process I assume we ask for formal quotes for each alternative. But unless it is a big ticket item (eg >>£30k) we usually buy new stuff rather than ex demo or ex rental.Note: We probably already qualify for special/reduced pricing as an established and regular customer so I really don't think much haggling takes place by our purchasing dept. But that really is just a guess on my part.

author: Isaac000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 12:25:43 am
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on July 04, 2015, 04:35:42 pmI will second this. After years of Agilent/Tek, we got our first Hameg. Comparable pricing, slightly cheaper than Tek or Keysight but full I2C, SPI, UART decode. So far been quite nice to use. I would not go for the Rigol given the slight price difference. I have used them before and it was not a joy (though yes, for the price, it does work). If I had to do it again, I might say I would still go Hameg over the Agilent.I would consider the following options:* Move down to Agilent MSX2000 series or the non-touch 3000A and save a bundle.* Consider a Hameg 2000 or 3000 series. Nice stuff at comparable prices. Worth the premium over Rigol.* Scrounge around for a used unit from Agilent / Tek (or Hameg, Yokogawa or if you must, LeCroy). Tons of them abound which have what you need and you can save quite a bit of money while you're at it.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 12:46:23 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on July 06, 2015, 11:00:06 pmI've never looked at prices when I was an engineer. I simply spec'd what was necessary. Whenever it got rejected, I simply update the schedule to reflect the impact. I don't think I can ever remember a time I was actually refused a piece of gear. Gear is cheap compared to engineers. You think $20,000 is expensive for a piece of test gear? Burn my time for a month, set back the schedule, and you'll see some REAL pain.Usually it's the other way around. "We have to spend $100,000 dollars in 2 weeks or our rate gets screwed up for next year. Better find some stuff to buy."Software is another matter. It's like pulling teeth to get some companies to pony up a few thousand bucks for software licenses. I've sat in meetings with a dozen people discussing a software purchase where the meeting itself cost FAR more than the damn software. $250,000 for test gear? No problem. Spend spend spend!! $50 for a good text editor? You'd think I was asking for a Lear jet.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 01:02:27 am
content: QuoteHaha, yep thats so true

author: AutomationGuy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 09:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on July 06, 2015, 06:00:02 pm

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 11:39:39 am
content: I tried to fix your broken quoting, I hope it's allright now.Quote from: AutomationGuy on July 09, 2015, 09:03:02 pmThat question was actually aimed at ntnico, not you. I guess you contacted their German subsidiary? In any case not replying to a customer request is pretty poor, although I can't say I'm surprised, considering that customer service towards consumers often isn't a top priority for German businesses.QuoteWell, you can. Maybe not in Germany but that is true for almost any other product.QuoteOf course they are, because Germans in general are willing to accept far worse deals than most other countries, something even German industry is well aware. Many moons ago when I still lived there Volkswagen cars were sold with "Gewaehrleistung" only (with no manufacturer warranty!) in Germany at prices much higher than the same model sold in the US (which came with 3yr warranty and was stuffed with options while the German market variant was pretty basic), even after compensating for living costs, tax etc.I don't know what the situation is these days, though, as I haven't been in Germany since and have no desire to go back. I still buy occasionally stuff from Germany (i.e. German movies you can't buy outside Germany), but that's only attractive as long the EUR is weak.QuoteMy prices are in US$ and there is no VAT in the US, just a sales tax of varying percentage that applies in some states but not in others. VAT and EUR prices are pretty irrelevant for the OP who according to his flag lives in the US.QuoteIndeed, and as a German I'm well aware of thatQuoteNo, I don't (I just happen to mention LeCroy because no-one else does, and that means people looking for gear might be overlooking some great alternatives to the trotten path of Agilent/Keysight). I don't work for any T&M manufacturer, in fact I've always been on the customer side, having bought tons of lab equipment over the years from individual DVMs to complete lab outfits costing 6+ digit figures for my customers, plus of course the occasional (more modest) purchase for my own private lab.I won't bother haggling for a piece of kit that costs say $600 at some retailer like Batronix (which probably has pretty small margins anyways), but I'll certainly try to get a better price or some additional options for something which has a sticker price of $3000, which is a price where it is worth going to the manufacturer directly. And I always manage to get some concessions, i.e. if not a lower price then for example getting some options thrown in. And for big ticket items ($5k+) I won't close a deal without some additional incentive unless it's a really critical and terribly rare item for which there's only one source.Of course there's a limit to what you can gain as an individual buying a single scope, but still it's worth trying to get a better deal than standard pricing, which even for single items should be possible.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 02:08:06 am
content: Man, that all-options offer is super tempting...QuoteHmmmmm.... I guess I have until November to decide.I was happy with my DS2000 until it died recently, so my faith in Rigol is waning.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 04:17:52 am
content: I read over this thread and want to clarify a few points:-On the 3000T series, 4mpts IS standard, unlike the 3000A.-Request a few quotes and you can get a 3014T for around $3600 with the free application bundle....$11,000 worth of apps if bought individually.-The upgrade license to 200Mhz is ~$400

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 06:57:41 am
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on July 31, 2015, 04:17:52 amWhere does one request a quote--the Keysight website?I was considering going through Tequipment, hoping I could get the EEVBlog discount and no sales tax (Err, of course I still pay voluntary use tax to my state, I uh.. promise....)

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 02:24:49 pm
content: Try TestEquity for the pricing I mentioned.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 08:52:01 pm
content: So I bought the DSOX3000T, I went through Tequipment which indicated they were shipping via Keysight.Turns out they actually ordered the scope through Transcat, which is neither here nor there.However, the scope came without the free application bundle/options.Per this:http://www.newark.com/wcsstore/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/cms/asset/pdf/americas/common/special-offers/keysight-july-so.pdfAny scope purchased new between June 1-Nov 30th 2015 should come with the options enabled.However, mine came with no factory installed options, nor a license code.Who should I go through to get this sorted? Can Keysight field issues like this directly, or am I going to have to hop through multiple distributors?Has this happened to anyone else?I imagine this scope was boxed prior to June 1st, so it's not that surprising. However, I'd think they would have had a system for handling this, knowing that distribution channels would have scopes that were boxed up before the promotion started.Thanks.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 09:43:19 am
content: I'm sorry this happpend to you. But I'm also sort of glad it did and did so even with the top of the line brand Keysight whos QC, customer support and after sales service is so bloody good. I'm sure they'll fix you up in seconds.... ;-)Let me tell you that had it been Rigol making that mistake there would've been 5 Youtube videos a 10 page forum thread by now with all the rage directed towards the chinese piece of shit company for not knowing what they're doing, lack of QA and bad customer support.It just goes to show that no one is perfect. I sincerely hope you'll get it sorted ASAP!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 10:47:07 am
content: Quote from: H.O on August 09, 2015, 09:43:19 amWell, since he bought it from Tequipment and not Keysight directly it's much more a case of the reseller messing up than Keysight messing up, because Tequipment should have taken care that the scope they send out comes with all the options. Obviously they failed to do that, and its actually up to them to sort that out (but I'm sure Keysight will sort Tequipment's failure if asked, because their customer support and after-saes service is indeed "bloody good").QuoteUnlikely, but don't let facts get in the way of a nice rant

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 10:47:20 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 08, 2015, 08:52:01 pmIn my experience with other manufacturers, I would contact the rep first (Tequipment) and show the .PDF file you mentioned (preferrable on a link from Keysight directly). One of the reasons is the rep knows details about the transaction (date of purchase, part number sold, etc.) and will probably pre-filter this when making a request to the manufacturer. The manufacturer knows nothing about the purchasing transaction but will listen to the rep.Obviously that sometimes such requests fall through cracks, therefore just keep pressing the rep.In my experience, contacting the manufacturer directly will mostly likely be redirected back to the rep on an equipment under warranty. If you are a big customer, they would do all that for you, though.Quote from: H.O on August 09, 2015, 09:43:19 amThis may be true due to the fact Rigol/Siglent/Owon have a large customer base among hobbyists (which can post things on a whim), but don't disregard the fact HP/Agilent/Keysight has a much longer track record of excellence. It sounds unfair at first glance but, as anybody in the business know, the new kids on the block have to work twofold to prove themselves. Despite I have absolutely no complaints about Rigol's support, you can't dismiss the issues others reported around the forum.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 11:30:33 pm
content: Thanks for the responses. I contacted all three of them, shotgun approachI'm hoping this can be resolved quickly. In the interim, since I want to fully test the scope in case it is defective, I activated the 30 day trial. Unforunately I neglected to set the date to my local time zone first, and if I do so now I'll probably lose a bit of trial time. heh!The scope is nice but the build quality isn't as good as I had come to expect from Keysight/Agilent. All of the BNCs on the front are off-center about 1mm to the left, leaving glaring gaps between the BNC and front panel PCB. This also means the USB port and MSO connector are offset as well. I re-watched Dave's tear down video and his unit has the same issue, although not as bad as mine. I could probably disassemble it, loosen all the screws holding down the PCB, and move it over? It's far enough off that if I were to use an active probe, the power pins might not seat properly in the gold divots.The display is misaligned, and the display bezel is wavy and leaves gaps around the display. The plastic feels kinda cheap.I actually think the build quality of my Rigol DS2000 is better (at least exterior-wise).Oh well. It is an incredibly fast scope and I like the UI and interface.Do you have to spend $50k+ to get scopes that really maintain attention to detail in their construction these days?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:00:14 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 09, 2015, 11:30:33 pmWell, I have two of the 3000X series scopes and I really can not complain about misalignment. But the built quality of my Agilent 7000 series scope is definitely better and top quality,

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:28:00 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 09, 2015, 11:30:33 pmI haven't seen a DSOX3000T in the wild yet but the labs I work in have quite a few DSOX3000 and DSOX400 Series scopes, and on the ones I've looked closer to I did notice similar things, and felt they looked pretty cheaply made for something carrying the Agilent sticker. It's definitely not on par with their non-X predecessors.QuoteNo (although spending $50k+ is no gurantee that there won't be any issues), but that's why you should get to try one first before committing to buying an expensive piece of test equipment (i.e. go to someone who has one and play with it, ask the manufacturer for a loaner, or rent one for a day or two).

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 08:28:59 pm
content: Yeah, I understand these are entry level scopes so I guess I am not that surprised--just was hoping it to match the build quality of my older Agilent/HP equipment which is top-notch. I guess they have to cut corners somewhere, but geez I thought it'd at least feel better than a Rigol (not the case here).Tequipment is trying to figure out what's going on with the missing options on my scope. Argh, I was led to believe the scope would ship from Keysight (maybe they were out of stock so they used Transcat). Anyways, with three layers of distribution I don't know how easy it is going to be to get the app bundle for my scope.I *still* have not heard back from Keysight-via-Newark about my purchased bandwidth upgrade option. Maybe it's not a good idea for individuals to purchase from the big names like Keysight etc. You just aren't important enough to warrant good service. Unless you are a big account, you just kinda get ignored.To the contrary, My interactions with Rigol have been stellar, although two of my five Rigol devices have been returned for hardware issues-so maybe it's a toss up.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:14:31 pm
content: So heard back from Keysight who told me that I need to contact Transcat. Transcat will then contact Keysight, and Keysight will generate the option key.I contacted Transcat who told me to contact Tequipment, as they placed the order with Transcat.I contacted Tequipment who at first told me to contact Transcat (seemed to think I ordered from Transcat?). Once I explained that I actually ordered from Tequipment, they put me on hold and then said they'd contact be back when they get it figured out.So, I guess it's working out exactly as you'd think it would: complicated as heck

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:26:38 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 09, 2015, 11:30:33 pmHi dadler, it's me again...Interesting set of developments arising after slagging off my GW-Instek GDS2000 series scope as low end crap.Anyways it seems you have purchased high end crap so we are in the same boat. Yep, I considered the Agilent 2000 series before I bought the GW-Instek for £1200.00 but Agilent wanted a cool £2000.00 vat incl for their 2000 series(2ch-200MHz). from Farnell(Newark) thats 40% more dosh than the Instek, and you have bought a top flight 3000 series stuff aswell?

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:29:06 pm
content: I didn't say it was low-end crap. I said it was low-end like Rigol/Siglent, which it is. The Agilent DSOX3000 series is also their low end line. Lots of low-end here. No crap.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:39:18 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 10, 2015, 08:28:59 pmNot really. The problem are the resellers, which in my experience for most part are absolutely useless if the task involves anything which goes beyond picking a box from storage, slapping an address label on top and sending it off.If I wanted to buy a DSOX3000T (which I wouldn't, but never mind) then I'd get it through Keysight directly. I might pay a bit more but the hassle is a lot less. It's different if I were to buy some Rigol or Siglent kit (because they have no own sales channel), but certainly not for something like a $3k big brand scope.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:50:39 pm
content: I can't say I'd ever consider the Keysight 3000 series "low end". The 1000 and possibly basement 2000's, maybe, but I suppose everything's relative.The 3000 is probably more of a VW Golf, the bread and butter mid range mainstream unit with the 2000 a Polo and the 1000 an Up. The range then goes all the way up through the Bentleys, Lambos and Bugatti high end, those that sell far fewer but are high performance and high value. They probably sell 100 times more 3000s than they do Z series.s

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 10:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 10, 2015, 09:50:39 pmI don't think so, as dadler is finding out by himself their are no high end scopes available to buy any more.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 10:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 10, 2015, 10:00:45 pmApparently so!

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 10:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 10, 2015, 09:39:18 pmYeah, I retrospect I regret going through Tequipment. I just have had great experiences with them in the past and wanted them to get my business (plus it was cheaper). But the small cost difference was not worth this headache... if I could do it over again I would do just that.And I don't know. The DSOX3000T kinda seems low-end to me. I suppose all kitted out it is like $20k, so it's not exactly cheap. Maybe I am just very underwhelmed with the build quality and trying to justify it by calling the scope low-end =P

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 05:11:47 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 10, 2015, 10:21:57 pmWell, the DSOX3000T*is*a low-end scope (and I doubt even at the overinflated list prices with the options paid for it a DSOX3014T would have cost even anything close to $20k), the fact that they added touch functionality what's essentially the old DSOX3k doesn't change that.And as I said, the build quality of the more expensive models of the DSOX family isn't better. I really like Agilent/Keysight kit but the DSOX I find pretty poor, not just the 3000 Series but also the bigger models (the higher you get the more unattractive they become).These days there simply are better alternatives out there in their price class, unless you really require one of the options that are only available on the DSOX3k(T) (i.e. audio).Quote from: Howardlong on August 10, 2015, 09:50:39 pmWell, as most of the times when car analogies are brought up they also fail in this case. Test instruments aren't cars, and the T&M market has pretty much *nothing* in common with the car market.The DSOX3k(T) is definitely a low-end scope due to its price (although Keysight is really pushing it), functionality and performance (100MHz to 1GHz bandwidth, low memory, simple math and measurements, very basic FFT, weak processing). The DSOX2000 is nothing more than a DSOX3000 which has been artificially crippled to create a model between the bottom-of-the-barrel 1000 Series and the DSOX30000. But that doesn't change the fact that all these are low-end scopes.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 06:22:48 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 11, 2015, 05:11:47 amThat is your opinion, and you're very welcome to it. I don't think the car analogy was at all inappropriate, and you didn't give a reason why it "failed", so I guess without that justification we'll have to disagree on that. I thought, and still think, it's quite a valid comparison.I do agree that some aspects of the 3000 are a little backward such as waveform screen resolution and memory depth, but there are also positive aspects such as the 1Mwfm/s. I wouldn't call a 4 or 5Gsa/s scope with a bandwidth up to 1GHz low end. 100MHz perhaps, but bandwidth isn't everything depending on your application. For audio work I'd say the 3000 is way up there for example.I think we're all well aware that you regularly have the luxury of driving five figure scopes at work and find them to be run of the mill to you, but not everyone sits in that position, very few in fact.http://youtu.be/K2k1iRD2f-cI drive a Veyron by the way.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 12:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 11, 2015, 06:22:48 amThat's not just my opinion, that's simply the standard way the scope segments are divided in the T&M industry. You can ignore it of course but that doesn't change how the market is divided.Keysight's low-end goes from the DSO1000 Series (entry-level) over the DSOX2000 (mid-entry) to the DSOX3000(T) (upper low-end). The midrange starts with the DSOX4000 and end in the DSOX6000. The high-end range starts with the DSO9000(H) (lower high-end), and goes over the DSO(X)90k(A) Series (mid high-end) to the S, V and Z Series (upper high-end).LeCroy's low-end goes from the WaveAce (entry-level) over the WaveJet (mid-entry) to the WaveSurfer 3000 (upper low-end). The midrange starts with the WaveSurfer 10 and the HDO4000 (lower midrange) and ends with the WaveSurfer Xs-B and the HDO6000/8000 Series (upper midrange). The high-end starts with the WaveRunner 6zi (lower high-end), goes over the WavePro 7zi (mid high-end) and WaveMaster 8zi (upper high-end), and ends with the LabMaster (ultra high end).R&S' low-end is populated by the Hameg HMO Series (entry level to upper low-end), the midrange starts with the RTM (lower midrange) and ends with the RTE (upper midrange), and the RTO (actually a lower high-end scope) is their only high-end variant.If you talk with manufacturer sales and read their internal marketing training material you'll see that this is how the scopes are categorized in this day and age.QuoteIt isn't, for various reasons. First, cars are bought emotionally, which is completely contrary to test equipment which is predominantly bought after a more or less hard set of requirements. When a hobbyist buys a scope some emotional component might be involved, but that's still not the same as the car market where emotions play a large part of a purchase decision (which is why advertising mostly plays to the emotional side, hence the often silly commercials).Also, cars have much more variety than scopes. VW (like other car manufacturers) not only offer hatchbacks but also sedans, station wagons, SUVs, Crossovers, Vans, plus a number of high-powered sports variants, pretty much across most (all?) segments. All of them allow tons of options, plus most models are available with a variety of different engines and transmissions (and some even with four wheel drive). People interested in say a hatchback might not be interested in a sedan or SUV variant but would probably consider the hatchback variant of the smaller car, while a station wagon customer might consider the SUV variant as well. A customer interested in the sports version of a sedan might not consider the sports version of the SUV or Crossover variant but might consider the sports version of the Station Wagon variant, and so on. With cars, there are much more differentiators than just the 'class' (i.e. sub-compact, compact, midrange, luxury, etc), thanks to a gazillion of options a sub-midrange car like say an Audi A4 can be ordered with engines and options of that available two classes above, leaving essentially just the smaller size of the car as a differentiator. Can you do that with a scope, i.e. ordering the processing, sampling and memory capabilities of a upper midrange model for an entry level scope? No, you can't.QuoteAside from the fact that audio work isn't really demanding, 5GSa/s, up to 1GHz, small screen and limited processing/FFT/Maths simply puts the DSOX3000(T) right into the low end segment. I agree that some of its specs would have been considered midrange say 10 years ago, but they're simply not in 2015.QuoteRight, but so what? Coming back to car analogies you seem to love, do you think a compact hatchback like a VW Golf turns into a luxury vehicle just because the buyer can't afford something better? I don't think so.So why should it be the case for scopes?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 03:02:38 pm
content: I am not party to these mysterious "internal documents" you reference so without them I'll keep to my opinion.The plethora of options available and choices for cars actually strengthens the case for the case of the analogy as far as I could see, it wasn't clear to me what point you were trying to make I'm afraid.I didn't ever say that the VW Golf is a luxury vehicle, although 25 years ago when I bought my first brand new car, a VW Golf GTi convertible, to me it did seem pretty close.Anyway, agree or not, I don't think an analogy between scopes and cars is something to get too uptight about, so instead, I'll pour myself a coffee, draw up a chair, and relax with a bit of $7k low-end scoping.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 03:56:45 pm
content: Well, I consider my Agilent MSO7104B and my MSOX3104A luxury scopes and enjoy them every time I use them. I know that Keysight offers scopes in the 1/2 Million Dollar range, but would I really use that much scope and enjoy it?Its all very relative, I guess.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 04:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 11, 2015, 03:56:45 pmThat's perfectly fine, but of course misses the point, which is that in as much as the current scope market goes the MSO7104B is a midrange scope and the MSOX3104A a low-end scope, and unfortunately that classification is completely independent of the owner's feelings.This aside, and to make it perfectly clear, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a low-end scope, which contrary to what some people seem to belief isn't a derogatory term but simply a classification in the grand scheme of things.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 04:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 11, 2015, 03:56:45 pmSorry to go a bit OT, how do you find the MSOX3104A as compared to the MSO7104B, particularly in terms of screen/waveform resolution and size, but also any other comments you may have? I have the 7104B, which I like primarily for the super responsive UI and reasonable XGA resolution, although I find the screen size is perhaps a little on the unnecessarily large side at times, but it is super clear.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 04:42:51 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 11, 2015, 03:02:38 pmThat's completely fine, you're of course free to ignore common categorization and invent your ownQuoteThe point is that with cars you can mix and match to a great extend, something you can't do in a similar manner with scopes (again, can you get a low end scope with tiny screen but the processing/FFT/math of the high end model? I don't think so). Plus you ignored the point about cars being purchased mostly on an emotional basis, much more so than test equipment.The common thing is that both markets have items and people that buy these items, but that's about it. You could as well have used the market of cheese cake sales on the Cornish coast as a similar example, it would have been similarly unrepresentative.But as I said, you're of course free to make up your own categories, even if they don't reflect what the rest of the industry uses. You shouldn't be surprised if that leads to misunderstandings, though.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 05:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 10, 2015, 09:39:18 pmI would directly compare the Keysight 3000A/T series to the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 series. There are pros and cons to both, but the bandwidth ranges, sample rates and features are roughly equivalent. The two big negatives on the Agilent compared to the WS3000 series are the screen/waveform resolution and the lack of LAN port as standard, but the latter can be rectified. On the other hand the Lecroy maxes out at 130kwfm/s compared to the Agilent's 1Mwfm/s, and has multiplexed vertical controls (offset though I would imagine by the touch screen). Swings and roundabouts everywhere as far as I can see.The 4000 is essentially a 3000T with a bigger telly.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 06:17:36 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 11, 2015, 05:01:59 pmI agree, both serve comparable market segments.QuoteNot sure I'd say it's roughly the same:The Wavesurfer comes with a larger screen with higher resolution (10.1" 1024x600 vs 8.4" 800x480 with the DSOX3kT)For scopes with bandwidths up to 1GHz I'd say in practical terms 4GSa/s and 10Mpts is probably much more useful than 5GSa/s and only 4Mpts memoryFFT with the WaveSurfer is up to 1Mpts while the DSOX3kT uses only 64kpts which is pretty poorThe WaveSurfer allows automatic and manual sample memory/sample rate management while the DSOX3kT is automatic onlyUnlike the DSOX3kT, which feature-wise is not that much better than the DSOX2k, the WaveSurfer 3000 has many features that can be found in LeCroy's high-end scopes, i.e. WaveScan and LabNotebook.The DSOX3kT has nothing comparable to WaveScan, which is a very versatile tool to find rare glitches and other issues and which works 'live' as well as on sampled data.The DSOX3kT also doesn't offer anything comparable to LabNotebook, which is a documentation tool and pretty neat if you have to document your measurements in some standardized format.The WaveSurfer 3000 uses the same probe interface (ProBus) all midrange and high-end scope from LeCroy use since the mid '90s, which means there's a wide range of suitable active probes out there, including a lot of second-hand ones which often sell for reasonable prices because they don't carry the "Tektronix" or "Agilent" labelIntegrated AWG: 25MHz 125MSa/s 14bit with 16kpts on the WaveSurfer, 20MHz 100MSa/s 10bit with 8kpts on the DSOX3kT (both not great, but still)LAN is standard on the WaveSurfer 3000 while it's a $400 option on the already expensive DSO3kTNot that important, but the WaveSurfer has four (2x front, 2x rear) USB host ports (Keysight two, one front one rear)Plus the WaveSurfer 3000 is noticably cheaper than the DSOX3kTYes, the WaveSurfer has single vertical controls for all channels (which are also swapped, i.e. horizontal is left and vertical is right, as it's tradition with LeCroy), but my experience is that this is something one gets used to pretty quickly *if* the scope is used somewhat regularly. I agree that it can be confusing for some people who use such a scope on the odd occasion only.Don't get me wrong, the 1M wfms/s update rate of the DSOX3kT is impressive in the low-end segment, but Keysight has painted itself a bit into a corner there when they decided to go for high waveform rates as top priority (which they've done mostly for marketing reasons). For finding glitches or other signal deviations I'd take a slower scope which has WaveScan or a similar tool over a high waveform rate DSOX3kT any day. 130k wfms/s are in my opinion more than good enough for an entry level scope, and overall I'd say the WaveSurfer 3000 is the much more well rounded scope than the DSOX3kT which really only excells in its max waveform update rate and trails in most other properties that are important for a general purpose scope.Aside from the waveform update rate, the only thing that really speaks for the DSOX3kT is the list of available options, which includes some pretty rare ones (i.e. I2S audio trigger). The WaveSurfer 3000 has a much shorter list, although LeCroy is working on adding more options through updates, as they've done already (i.e. CAN, AWG, DVM) since the scope came out mid-2014.I'm not saying the DSOX3kT is a bad scope, but in my opinion for what it offers it's pretty much overpriced.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 06:19:33 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 10, 2015, 09:39:18 pmYou seem intent on disparaging the 3000T with inaccurate and subjective statements. It's specs saw a nice bump over the 3000A in both memory(doubled) and sampling speed(25% boost) despite your claim of a touchscreen simply being stuck on a 3000A. Slow processing? What are you talking about? What's faster in its class?What "alternatives" are clearly superior in it's price range? I'd love to hear it. Rigol? Owon? Something from Tek or R&S?As far as build quality, all modern electronics feel flimsy in comparison to built like a tank CRO's of old. There's nothing wrong with Keysight's materials or construction on my 3000t. Encoders never miss a click, ever.The wavesurfer 3000 is considerably MORE expensive, with fewer features, a sampling rate that 65% slower, smaller selection of options, etc, etc.Also, for whatever reason Tequiptment seems to be on the fringes of the Keysight dealer network. The bad feeling I got when they knew nothing about the free app bundle, after a week of trying to get a straight answer, convinced my to buy elsewhere.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 06:30:11 pm
content: With all the free options (if you can get them! ARGH!), I think the 3000T series is a great value right now. After November 30th, perhaps not so much.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 06:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 11, 2015, 06:30:11 pmI had an issue with the app bundle and they took very good care of me. I never got through to a senior engineer from customer service in under 2 minutes before.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 06:59:03 pm
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on August 11, 2015, 06:19:33 pmIf you call the Keysight's data sheets "disparaging" then I guess you're right.QuoteWrong. The 1GHz variant of the DSOX3kA already came with 5GSa/s (only the smaller bandwidth models were limited to 4GSa/s), and 4Mpts was already available on the DSOX3kA as well, although as an option.And I'm sure you can explain why you believe 5GSa/s is such an advantage over 4GSa/s sample rate on a scope with a bandwidth of 1GHz or less? Especially since the much smaller memory on the Keysight means you can capture a lot less (and the sample rate will drop much lower on longer timebase settings).QuoteFast? Right.FFT on the WaveSurfer is pretty fast, as is the DSOX3kT (based on the videos Keysight and others have put up, it's the same as the DSOX3kA, which we have several in our labs), but the difference is that the WaveSurfer processes 16 times the amount of data!QuoteYeah, right:DSOX3012T 100MHz 2Ch - $3,350 (Tequipment $3,316)http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2483807-pn-DSOX3012T/oscilloscope-100-mhz-2-channels?nid=-32756.1114212&cc=US&lc=enghttp://www.tequipment.net/Agilent/DSOX3012T/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=truevsWaveSurfer 3022200MHz2Ch - $3,199 (LeCroy list price is $3000 but market prices have actually gone up)http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/WAVESURFER%203022/WAVESURFER%203022-ND/4897128OrDSOX3034T 350MHz 4Ch ´- $8,300 (Tequipment $8,217)http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2486117-pn-DSOX3034T/oscilloscope-350-mhz-4-channels?nid=-32756.1114202&cc=US&lc=enghttp://www.tequipment.net/Agilent/DSOX3034T/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=truevsLeCroy WaveSurfer 3034 350MHz 4Ch - $5,499http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/WAVESURFER%203034/WAVESURFER%203034-ND/4897130OrDSOX3054T 500MHz 4Ch - $11,200 (Tequipment $11,088)http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2486131-pn-DSOX3054T/oscilloscope-500-mhz-4-channels?nid=-32756.1114205&cc=US&lc=enghttp://www.tequipment.net/Agilent/DSOX3054T/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=truevsWaveSurfer 3054 500MHz 4Ch - $6,949http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/WAVESURFER%203054/WAVESURFER%203054-ND/4897131BTW, for less than the price of the 500MHz 4Ch Keysight you can even get a 1GHz WaveSurfer 10:http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?mpart=WAVESURFER%2010&v=1133Any more nonsense to spread?

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 07:41:05 pm
content: On a side note, Newark is saying that the bandwidth upgrade license code that I ordered is "backordered" (by Keysight) until September.I have no idea how a license code can be backordered.That LeCroy does seem like a nice scope. What options does it come with? I only went for the Agilent due to the option bundle. Are they bandwidth upgradable (via software or mail-in retrofit)?

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 07:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 11, 2015, 07:41:05 pmI guess they have to schedule them - you know, order all the parts (bits and bytes?), qc the incoming parts, put the parts on shelves in inventory, get the parts from the inventory shelves to the factory floor, assemble them in batches, test the assembled product (bits/bytes/license?), print the documentation, put all the pieces in a box, ship them from the factory to the distribution centers and have them ready for shipment to partners and eventually to customers.Seriously, I think someone must have been confused or given you bad info, it is hard to believe that what should be a downloadable software license can be backordered for a month.... especially when they are running a special promotion on an offering with the license....

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 07:59:53 pm
content: Backordered means they are selling too many, and want to spread the profit out over a period so the beancounters will be happier without a spike.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 08:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 11, 2015, 07:59:53 pmSo even though Dadler paid for his scope and took delivery of the scope they aren't going to count the sale because they didn't complete the delivery (with the license) and therefore they are going to delay booking the sale so they can smooth the spike? Not to mention August and September are in the same quarter for most/all companies. Kind of hard to imagine but if so it's an interesting way to make happy customers. I have some faith in Keysight, I think there is a chance the license will become available sooner.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 08:34:06 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 11, 2015, 07:41:05 pmAs other said, it's mostly to spread the revenue.QuoteThese are the options available for the WS3000:http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=466LeCroy currently does a promo in Europe where all software options (except MSO) are included, but my guess is that they would offer the same to US buyers as well.Bandwidth is software upgradeable, however I doubt that this makes any sense, for this or any other scope. You're really much better off by buying the bandwidth you need in the foreseeable future now, and when you find you need more then sell the old scope and buy a new one with the better bandwidth.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 09:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on August 11, 2015, 07:41:05 pmDid they charge you for it? Just curious.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 09:43:18 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on August 11, 2015, 09:36:06 pmNo, I have not yet been charged. Won't be charged until it "ships" =PJust want the 200Mhz bandwidth. Only ordered the 100Mhz version of the scope because I was told the 200Mhz (pre-installed/labeled) version was backordered. Since it was the same price to get the DSOX3014T + the upgrade code, I went that direction.I ordered DSOXLAN + the upgrade code through Newark (received the DSOXLAN a couple days later), but I have telephoned Newark twice about the bandwidth code. They are being told by Keysight that license codes are "backordered" until September 4th. I ordered August 4th... hmmmmI called again and got a nice lady in customer service at Newark and she said she'd do her best to contact Keysight via phone this time, and see what the deal is.In all honesty, I bought the DSOX3000T because my DS2000 broke down and that was sufficient excuse (for me) to "upgrade" to the scope I wanted in the first place (given the free option deal). In retrospect, what a major headache. Ahh teaching me daily lessons in patience....

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 09:56:37 pm
content: Regarding the touchscreen functionality in the Keysight: isn't it more like a gimmick for making your screen dirty with fingerprints?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 10:21:12 pm
content: QuoteI was wondering which period would work for that. It can't be monthly as the 4th is too early in the month. Quarterly would be Oct, Nov, Dec wouldn't it? Maybe they just ran out of plastic bags to put the bit of paper with the key into

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 10:24:03 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 11, 2015, 08:34:06 pmAgain, here you go veering off track with your absolutist statements. Are you aware not everyone has the same use case? How about that fact that in some instances the scope+bandwidth upgrade is no more than, and in some cases less than the scope with higher bandwidth preinstalled?Everyone is not you, and it's notable that you give strident and arrogant advice, without ever asking what the scope will be used for.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 05:37:51 am
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on August 11, 2015, 10:24:03 pmIt seems someone is out for trolling again.QuoteI guess you're right if your "use case" (a term you don't seem to understand, really) involves spending as much money as possible.I agree that in some cases it can be cheaper to buy a lower bw scope plus a bw upgrade instead of the higher bw model. But that's because when bought together with the scope the bw upgrades are normally much cheaper than bought later.But that doesn't change the fact that buying a lower bw scope now and planing to bw upgrade say one or two years down the line is rarely economical, as the upgrade will very likely be much more than the difference between the amount you'd get for selling your old scope and buying the higher bw model instead. Of course you might get lucky and the bw upgrade will be dirt cheap, but everyone who knows T&M companies knows that this is unlikely.Of course you're absolutely free to ignore my advice and gamble on the upgrade being cheaper down the line, and frankly, I can't care less if you do. It's your choice.QuoteYeah, whatever.If you don't like what I write or my advice then ignore me, simple as that. A five year old would be capable of that but obviously not you as you're clearly out to troll. Of course you could try to counter my points if you can argue why my advice is wrong (that's called a "discussion" btw) but I can clearly see that's beyond you. It's clear you can't even get the basics rightOn the other side I have to say I somehow feel honored having attracted my personal troll, even though you're pretty much below the minimum intellectual standard I expect from my trolls. That means because of sloppy work like not checking basic facts before attacking you only get aGood luck next time!

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 05:31:09 pm
content: On a more positive note....Quote from: Tequipment

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 07:12:46 pm
content: HAH goddamn this headache.They sent me a license certificate for the 2000X series. Wtf?This entire ordeal is so much fun!Tequipment has been great, but their supplier Transcat should be avoided at all costs. These guys screw *everything* up.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 12:11:27 am
content: So, Still haven't received my bandwidth upgrade nor the app bundle license.HOWEVER, all is not lost.I have received two, yes two, free gifts from the Keysight trigger challenge! This is "time sensitive material", baby!I wish the layers of distribution worked as well as the marketing arm of Keysight. I would have received the licenses before I even requested them!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 05:17:23 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 18, 2015, 12:11:27 amThat's pretty poor, especially considering you're waiting for some software codes.If I were you I'd give Tequipment 5 days to sort it out, otherwise I'd return the scope and buy it from somewhere else.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 08:33:32 pm
content: So Tequipment got TransCat to overnight the correct license certificate to me (why we are mailing paper, the world will never know).I just activated it and it works. The options are now permanently enabled.However, I have a question and wonder if anyone knows the answer.When the scope first arrived, it came with the MEMUP option enabled. This is because the 3000T series of scopes is supposed to come with the (earth-shattering) 4MB of memory standard.When I turned on the trial options (as the DSOXT3APPBNDL wasn't installed, and I wanted to try out the options), the MEMUP option disappeared to be replaced with "memMax*", with the * indicating that it is a trial option that will expire in a month.Anyone know if when the trial expires, I'm going to go back to 2MB of memory on this scope? I would have think they wouldn't even have activated the "memMax*" trial option, as it seems to have overridden the MEMUP option that came pre-installed.BTW: Keysight contacted me via PM and offered to get this all sorted out via email if I continued to have issues with the license codes. They get a bigfrom me!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 09:27:18 pm
content: My experience is, that the scope will fall back to exactly how it was, before you activated the trial license.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 12:47:22 am
content: I am glad everything is working out for you, dadler!Quote from: dadler on August 18, 2015, 08:33:32 pmWe have a similar scenario with our software licenses. In general distributors have license to sell physical goods only and not electronic "soft" licenses. In our case I prepare a DVD master copy which is replicated and packaged with its software code printed in card stock paper.There is a possibility that what happened in your case was a sudden demand increase in software codes, which depleted the distributor's software license card stock. If that was the case, I am pretty sure someone at Keysight was scrambling (just like me at a times) to place an order with their publisher.Yeah, all this is silly in the internet era, but...

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 11:13:08 pm
content: An engineer from Keysight contacted me via PM, took my order information, and contacted the account manager at Newark regarding my "backordered by Keysight" bandwidth upgrade.Guess what: Once he contacted them, I immediately got a shipping notice from Newark.I had spoken with no less than 7 different people in various departments, and was told unilaterally that Keysight were the ones that had backordered the item, and it would not be available until Sept 4th (Or August 24th, or some time in between, depends who you got on the phone).So Keysight gets one-hundred thumbs up from me. They read these forums and really do want their products represented in a positive light.In other news, the scope has grown on me and I have begun to really like the touch interface. It seemed gimmicky at first, but now I don't know if I can go back to a non-touch scope without feeling a sense of loss.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 09:59:29 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 18, 2015, 12:11:27 amI think I have 4 or so, gave them away. The wife is already poking fun at me every time she brings one of those envelopes

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:29:31 am
content: AHAHAH--this is ridiculous!I received the "bandwidth upgrade" from Newark, and all they included was the "200 mhz" stickers. There is absolutely NO entitlement certificate!Nothing!I will *never* purchase a single thing from Newark ever again, and I urge all of you to avoid them at all costs.They are an entirely joke organization.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:22:15 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 25, 2015, 06:29:31 amBet you will.They aren't as bad as think - like any of these organisations they just aren't that good at 'complex' things.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:27:16 am
content: Complex, like putting the item you paid for in the package they sent you?They sent me an empty envelope, other than a piece of paper that says "Follow the instructions on the entitlement certificate that you received in the envelope with this sticker sheet"...I'm tired of dealing with these folks. I've spoken with them several times on the phone, talked to a different person every time. Each one was cordial, but none of them were helpful or assisted in resolving any issues. I haven't even listed half of the issues in this thread.Anyways, I guess "never" isn't a particularly useful qualifier, but at this point I don't see myself ever purchasing from them again. Too many headaches, my time is worth more than all of this. argh.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:24:44 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 25, 2015, 09:27:16 amThings like these are the reason I try to avoid resellers as much as possible, even for personal purchases (unless it's stuff like Rigol or Siglent which can't be purchased directly). They generally add nothing to the process and in the worst case make things go worse.But I have to say I admire your patience

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:14:55 pm
content: I never had any problems with a Keysight reseller in Germany for Hardware.But software is a different issue, almost every time there was a problem.However, as soon as I got Keysight involved, the issues had been taken care of in a quick and easy way.I think Software should not be handled by resellers at all.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 05:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 01:14:55 pmYeah, I wanted to go through Keysight for the software, but was redirected to a distributor after filling out the online quote form.I still want the MSO option, maybe I'll try TestEquity. I also got a quote from them. Newark has better pricing, but it seems to be smoke-and-mirrors.I should have just waited it out and got the MSO-X 3024T instead of trying to upgrade the lower modelHad no idea it would be this difficult.I contacted the Keysight engineer that helped me in the first place, and he is going to try to see if he can get it sorted out. Keysight

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:07:17 pm
content: Wow, Keysight really, really came through.The two engineers I was in contact with gave me the bandwidth license directly, side-stepping Newark and their poor service.Beyond that, I am floored, as they gave me a bonus for my trouble that leaves me without words.At the risk of sounding cheesy, I've never had such a positive experience with a vendor.Keysight has overwhelmingly reinforced their positive image in my mind. They read these forums and truly do care about their customers and the perception of their products.Ok, calming down now, backing off all of the superlatives. Keysight now gets one-thousand thumbs up from me+997