Upgrading the lab to something decent - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2017, 09:48:22 pm
content: After having spent most of my life intermittently tinkering with electronics in a not too serious fashion and getting a bit more serious the past 1-2 years, it's finally time to upgrade the workbench into something more permanent. I've grown tired of every tool being a project itself, and want tools that help me get the job done, rather than having to fight them to get anywhere. A bit of background is that I'm the owner of a tiny fledgling business. Electronics are not my core business, but I've found it to be an enjoyable and useful addition to my bag of tricks and have become a more prominent part of things because of that. I'm not quite focussing on one area, with work including the assembly and repair of my own power and CNC tools and computers, the design and manufacture of tools and components for internal use, preliminary feasibility testing and prototyping of boards to be used in actual products and possibly small scale manufacture in the future. I'm still looking into the certification and liability side of the latter. Embedded microcontrollers, small power supplies, motor control and some minor RF work are amongst the things I worked on so far. I don't mind spending money on good tools, but as with any starting business, money is very tight. Spending money here means not spending it elsewhere. It also means I'm not going to set a fixed budget, as I don't want to set a hard limit and miss out. I've looked at various options for a while now, and the time has come for you folks to take shots at my reasoning.I've bought a Fluke 87V. I was actually looking for something much more modest, but I could pick it up at a decent price. Even though I initially felt I overspent and was prepared to dislike it for being nothing too special, I'm actually pleasantly surprised. In relevant ways, it reminds me of my Knipex tools. It can take a beating and will get the job done regardless, without much fuss or excitement. This has reinforced my belief that it pays to get some proper tools, as I've always appreciated them in other areas. I've never caught myself thinking I should have bought a worse tool for the job, but again, the budget will dictate the choices here. I've assembled to following preliminary list:1. Rigol DS1054Z - You can hardly go wrong with this one. Even though the model is ageing a bit, there don't seem to be any competitors with an equal amount of channels and value. I've looked long and hard at the Siglent SDS1202X-E, because of its higher bandwidth, better FFT and more snappy interface, but I think the bigger memory and extra channels of the DS1054Z win out. Four channels will help looking at digital signals and working on brushless motors. I've also looked at more expensive models, but I don't see too much reason to upgrade. Any significant performance gain coincides with a huge price hike.2. Korad 3005D-2S - The Korad is a fairly basic dual channel power supply with enough extra features to make it interesting. It has a convenient UI and all the obligatory basic options. You can also read and write data through a PC, which could be a very useful addition for some testing. I've looked at the Rigol DP832, but that's quite a bit more expensive without offering that much more. It should be more accurate, but the interface is a little more clunky. I'm not sure spending two to three times more will pay off there.3. Quick 861DW - Considering I'm moving towards more modern components, often available only in some of the more annoying SMD packages, I thought it'd be a good idea to invest in a good hot air station. This seems to be the only option between the Aoyue models and the much more expensive Hakko or even JBC and Weller ones. I know Aoyue is known as a good budget option, but I've had a lot of trouble with my 936 station. Even though that may very well have been a fluke [ha!], it has turned me off to the degree that I'd rather spend a bit more to get something else. This model seems to be very well liked by people who do professional board level repairs and is compatible with the commonly available Aoyue nozzles.This should get me along my way for now. Next up would be a decent function generator, but for now I've bought a very cheap FG-100 that'll fill the gap until then. What do you guys think and have I missed any obvious options?

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2017, 10:07:20 pm
content: You've got the basics covered.I can recommend comparing the Micsig TO1104 to the DS1054Z. They're similar in responsiveness, apples and oranges in control scheme, but the Micsig does have the advantage of a larger screen and optional battery power. Micsig cheaped out on the included probes though, they're not X1/X10 switchable...As for the Korad, I've used it briefly and find it to be workable, but I've ultimately moved on to much better power supplies. In my opinion, it's not worth it to put your project on the line with a cheaper power supply. My current main supply is a Siglent SPD-3303D which happens to be significantly more quiet any of the HP / Agilent power supplies I've owned.Finally, I have nothing but good things to say about Quick and their line of hot air stations. My 957D has served me well, and I have no doubts the 861DW will be a great unit as well. If you think you'll be doing a lot of soldering, I would recommend looking into buying or building a fume extraction solution. We've been having a discussion about fume extractors in the Other Equipment forum recently.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2017, 10:41:20 pm
content: Quote from: nidlaX on September 18, 2017, 10:07:20 pmI should note that I've got a cobbled together electronics workshop of Chinese no-name tools and homebrew contraptions. You can get things done with them, but it's often a struggle. Now that it's becoming more than a hobby thing, the time has come to stop mucking about.The Micsig TO1104 seems to be an interesting option. One problem I see right now, is that it costs about $200 more when delivered to my doorstep. I'll have to look into that a little more to be sure. I do like the DS1054Z being a well known and thoroughly tested model. The value of having a community ready to help isn't lost on me.Can you elaborate on the risks you see associated with the Korad? I've seen them both sold by Dave Jones on Amazon and in the lab of Jack Ganssle, which tells me that they can't be too terrible. Out of curiosity, can you upgrade your model to a higher resolution too, like you can on the Rigol?Finally, looking into fume extraction is a good tip for sure. I take my health in the workshop fairly serious. Looking into proper fume extraction also means being better prepared for any staff that might get hired in the distant future. I don't want to overhaul the whole shop because it's not meeting safety standards at that point and I certainly don't want them working in a shop that doesn't meet standards.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2017, 10:49:05 pm
content: IMHO when it comes to hot air you can't go wrong with the Atten 858D+ (or newer model). I don't see how spending more will get a significant advantage but then again I have not used a more expensive hot air station. A magnifier lamp is also nice to have although I wish I have space for a Mantis.Maybe a cheap USB logic analyser can be a good investment as well. The same goes for a simple LCR meter.Anyway, often I buy equipment when I need it for a project.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 01:01:21 am
content: For DMM's, you'll want more than one for simultaneous measurements and they don't have to be expensive units either. For example, you can get aUni-T UT139Cfor ~$34 shipped. Plenty of other options as well, but not knowing what you'd be working on, I mention the UT139C as it has decent protections in it (CAT III 600V).I own a Quick 861DW hot air station, and it's very good IME. The unit itself has sufficient power, and the UI is intuitive to use.The 3 presets are very nice too (i.e. use a timer/stopwatch, and you can use them to make a crude reflow profile; otherwise you can have a setting for heat shrink, leaded, and lead-free soldering/desoldering). You'll be able to do most anything with the 3 round ones they include with the station, so you don't have to go and buy a bunch of extra nozzles either. Just add specialty nozzles if/when needed.I found making or buying shields to keep from heating nearby parts to be more useful instead (JBC makes them, but they're not exactly cheap;examples). DIY'ing them out of thin sheet metal and riveting them together will do the job as well. Even something like an aluminum soda can will suffice.As per PSU's, I'd recommend you consider quality used linear units from eBay, particularly if you live in the US/CAN (you get greater value from multi-channel output models). Better quality for pennies on the dollar this way.Here's a few examples:GW Instek GPC-3020(CC & CV modes for ~$60 shipped)Tektronix CPS250Systron Donner TL8-3By going with SMD parts, you'll want some means of magnification; whether it be a simple Opti-Visor or a reasonably priced stereo microscope. Or trinocular if you want to do still photos or video without having to remove one of the eyepieces to fit an adapter suitable for your camera. I'm partial to zoom types rather than those that use fixed magnification, but the latter is a bit less expensive. BTW, you'll want ~ 4x - 10x for most work, and ~ 20x for inspection.Fixed Binocular(10x & 20x eyepieces)Zoom BinocularZoom TrinocularYou can get them with different stands, such as the double boom stand which improves stability. And if you're after a trinocular type, there's a version that has simultaneous focusing between eyepieces & camera so you can take images/video while working; no loss of an eyepiece (Amscope calls it Simul-focal).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 01:17:37 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 18, 2017, 10:49:05 pmThe Atten seems to be a popular budget choice, but that reminds me of the Aoyue 936. I've spend too much time fighting, then troubleshooting and fixing that and I simply don't want to risk that again. I probably had some bad luck, but the money saved certainly seems to be offset by the time spent in that case. Also, due to taxing related differences between local and eBay purchases, the effective price difference between the Atten and the Quick is not as big as it would be for a consumer. Considering the relatively minor price difference and everyone seemingly being in love with the Quick, it seems to be the right choice.I already own a cheap logic analyser, which is a great tool. I'm a bit fed up with the cheap hooks falling off their leads, so I might spend some money on better ones. One of those cheap LCR meters discussed elsewhere on the forums is also present, though I made sure to pick one in a decent housing. Getting a "real" one that can do smaller capacitances is on the "next to get" shortlist. It would be nice to verify all the components are working properly before installing them in at least some projects.Current projects include a DC/DC SMPS that will need to be at least partially characterized and a microcontroller board it will need to power. I feel it's important to test things on the bench with some vigour, to prevent surprises later on.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 01:20:21 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 18, 2017, 09:48:22 pmDon't know how much of a hurry you're in, but if not you could consider waiting for these:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/I've had a 100 MHz model for a few days to test, yes there's some bugs in it that need to be be fixed before release.I'd can't disclose any more other than to say it will give the marketplace a good shakeup is this bracket of DSO.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 02:54:24 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 19, 2017, 01:20:21 amOh, bother. It looks like I'll have to wait for that one. Do you know when it is expected to be available in western markets? I don't mind being somewhat patient, but considering I was about to pull the trigger and it is the most needed item on the list, there are limits.I can't quite deduce how the memory is compared to the DS1054Z. For some reason, the Rigol is ridiculously well equipped compared to the more recent competition.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 03:03:15 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 19, 2017, 02:54:24 amNo dates yet, sorry.QuoteTwo x 1 GSa/s ADC's, each has 14 Mpts available so with 4 channels On, 500 MSa/s and 7 Mpts for each channel.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 09:46:14 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 19, 2017, 01:17:37 amAoyue soldering stations are utter crap. I used to have the SMT tweezers and it ended up in the bin. However (IMHO) hot air is hot air. Not so much that can go wrong with that. I have been using my 858D+ for many rework and heavy soldering jobs and it performs well. I do have a spare 858D+ unit on hand though.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 12:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 18, 2017, 09:48:22 pmI agree, Dave agrees, but prepare to be assaulted ...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 12:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 19, 2017, 01:20:21 amWe also know that Rigol is working on a completely new custom chipset for their oscilloscopes.Also: Next year's car will be better than this year's! Maybe nobody should ever buy a car, just in case...

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 12:38:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 19, 2017, 12:17:12 pmNope. Usually they f**k up everything with facelift. They completely ruined Toyota GT86 looks.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 01:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 19, 2017, 12:17:12 pmI thought that was for higher-end scopes...

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 05:14:42 pm
content: Quote from: exe on September 19, 2017, 01:41:45 pmIt's targeted for the 1 - 4GHz range according to the press release, though it's possible it could be used in lower BW models at some point.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 05:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: exe on September 19, 2017, 01:41:45 pmI'm sure it will trickle downwards after the higher-end 'scopes are released at the end of the year.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 10:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 19, 2017, 12:17:12 pmAnd we also know it will be riddled with bugs for at least a couple of years after introduction.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 11:11:29 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 19, 2017, 03:03:15 amI understand you can't give us any dates, but might you be able to indicate a month or even a quarter? Failing all those, based on your previous experience with domestic releases and the subsequent release on western markets, what would you say is a reasonable time to be expected between the two?Quote from: wilfred on September 18, 2017, 11:15:45 pmThis sailor is done with having to patch his boat and not getting quite anywhere as a result of it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 11:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 19, 2017, 11:11:29 pmCan't because I don't know them.Best guess is in the OP is the linked thread, maybe before I don't honestly know.

author: ruairi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 11:55:20 pm
content: I would pick up a Rigol 1054Z and start having fun and getting some work done now, forget waiting for vaporware. The great thing about the 1054Z being so ubiquitous is that used prices are strong, you could sell in a years time if you outgrow it or something better comes along.I'm a believer in good tools and some of my gear far exceeds my requirements and even my abilities but it is a lot of fun to use.

author: STMartin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2017, 01:44:27 am
content: If you don't specifically need a programmable power supply, I'm a big fan of HP/Agilent's linear supplies. Something along the lines of an E3610A or an E3620A; simple and reliable.They can be found used on eBay for around $150. You can also find broken ones for $90 or so. In my experience it's usually something dead simple to fix: bad solder joints on the main switch, blown fuse, loose wire, etc.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2017, 07:23:03 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 18, 2017, 09:48:22 pmIgnore the possibility of other equipment - for now. Use the equipment to do something,anythingthat interests you.When you can't do X, first use imagination (and skill) to try to find adifferentway to achieve X without buying anything. If you can't, then you will be able to write a specification for what youneedto buy.Don't forget that everything has a learning curve; too muchstuff=> too long learning!Having said that, you don't mention soldering and vision equipment. For the latter, a cheap way of finding what you do/don't need is the ~£20 head-mounted visors with changeable lenses. Don't forget good adjustable lighting; I find bench-mounted LEDs on a long gooseneck are very useful.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 19, 2017, 01:01:21 amThanks for the comprehensive reply. The Fluke 87V is my fifth DMM, so I'm covered doing multiple measurements. I have an old hardware store meter, one Bside ADM01 from back when I first got more seriously interested in electronics, two AN8008 meters to do power and efficiency readings and the Fluke 87V to finally get something decent for higher voltages. What's still missing is a decent logging multimeter, which might be a Brymen or just maybe Dave's new meter. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.I've yet to hear a negative comment about the Quick station, so that seems to be a done deal. Louis Rossmann said he would do a review of the thing this week, so that might be interesting.The power supplies are another story. I agree with you that looking for second hand brands and models that are known to be of decent quality is a good idea. Following up up on your comment, but being located in the EU, I haven't seen anything that makes a lot of sense t me. eBay has allowed me to score a few good deals, but as far as power supplies go, it doesn't appear to be so. I saw one beat up single channel HP unit go for more than the new dual channel programmable unit would cost me. Yes, I know, apples to oranges, but still. I am still going back and forth on getting two separate Korad units, one dual channel unit or a Rigol, but the dual channel Korad seem to make the most sense. It never hurts to have more options, so upgrading to something more decent later while keeping the Korad around for the more "hold my beer" kind of experiments is viable. I will be sure to keep checking the various channels until I actually make a purchase. Something might pop up.Magnification is something I've been looking at, but I think I will see how that pans out in practice. I will find out quickly enough whether I desperately need to invest in optical equipment. Getting one of those cheap but half-decent USB microscopes might be a workable in-between until then. If I do spend money, I'd rather do it right the first time and unfortunately, that does not represent a trivial amount of money.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:24:02 pm
content: Quote from: ruairi on September 19, 2017, 11:55:20 pmI'm not sure I would qualify it as vapourware due to it apparently being available and released in some parts of the world. However, after going back and forth for a while I do think I agree with you. Waiting for a model that may or may not show in the next 6 months, that may or may not have the features I expect and require, which may or may not be receiving favourable reviews from the community, which may or may not have serious issues that need even more time to be fixed and may or may not be considerably more expensive, due to its two channel brother being as expensive as the DS1054Z doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. I can't sit still for 6 months or more based on a vague promise and the DS1054Z will still be a very decent tool after the competition surpasses it.At worst, I could always sell it and spend some more money on the upgrade, but knowing my buying habits, that doesn't seem too likely.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 26, 2017, 11:24:02 pmLots of surmising and short on facts.I have one for testing and it far exceeds capabilities of its lesser two channel brother.Mentioned/suspected release dates are reasonably accurate....far less than 6 months.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 12:39:48 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 26, 2017, 11:15:11 pmFWIW, TopLoser has an Agilent U1252B up for 200GBP + shipping (here) if you're willing and able. Even if not, sending him a PM regarding something you're after is worthwhile IMHO, as he sells customer returns that are fully functional and aren't screwed up cosmetically.Regarding the U1252B, the interfaces aren't expensive and the software is free. Brymen sells the interface for the BM86x series DMM's inexpensively as well (here); TME would likely be the best place to find that at a reasonable price.Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 26, 2017, 11:15:11 pmI'll have to keep an eye out for that one (don't have a video camera myself, other than my phone, and I suspect using it would be a disaster).Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 26, 2017, 11:15:11 pmGiven you're in the EU, have you tried eBay sellers in say the Netherlands and Germany?Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 26, 2017, 11:15:11 pmYou could start with a magnifying lamp or Opti-Visor (or similar), as they're not terribly expensive.Regarding a microscope, I figured on a buy-once-cry-once philosophy, so I spent $609 shipped for an Amscope 3.5x - 90x Simul-Focal*, double arm boom stand, fluorescent ring light, and a 5MP camera kit. Everything you need OTB. Not pocket change, but at 1.5x a Rigol DS1054Z, it's not horrible either.The optics are decent BTW, so I don't see the need to spend more than that. An upgrade or two, such as a 1x Barlow to keep the objectives clean, polarized filter, and better lighting**.* Includes a 2.0x Barlow to get above 45x, which can always be added later on (10x eyepieces * 0.7x - 4.5x objectives without a Barlow lens installed). I only got that model as it was in stock, and the price difference was negligible (you really onlyneeda 0.5x Barlow).** LED ring lights are cheap, and ideally a dual arm fiber optic LED unit would be even more desirable (convert a used halogen unit?). The reason is hitting the chip at an angle makes a world of difference reading IC P/N's IME. The inexpensive IKEA goose neck desk lamps would do too, or in a pinch, a flashlight/torch. BTW, turn off the ring light for this.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 07:18:53 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 24, 2017, 07:23:03 amIgnoring the possibilty of other equipment doesn't seem to be a productive approach. Unfortunately, your choice of DSO also dictates what you can do with what arbitrary signal generator. As far as I can tell, an oscilloscope and signal generator within the same brand tend to be a more streamlined experience. Recording and replaying a signal is something I have uses for right now. Generating damaged or modified signals through a script and playing them on data lines is another application I can already see being useful.The whole purpose of upgrading the lab is eliminating every tool being a project in itself. I've mucked about with homebrew solutions for a while now, but I'm trying to shift the focus more towards getting the actual projects done. Buying something just good enough for the current project seems to be a bit of a gambling approach, as any slight change in requirements could warrant yet another upgrade.Soldering equipment was mentioned in the form of the currently present Aoyue 936 station I'm not too impressed with, and the potential Quick hot air station purchase

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 01:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 07:18:53 amApart from having the same case colour and (possibly) having similar external dimensions, I can't think of what you might mean by that.QuoteIn that case, for analogue signals you need an AWG, and for digital signals a pattern generator. Make sure the number of samples and frequency / baud rate are sufficient for your signals.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 02:07:24 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 28, 2017, 01:20:16 pmAccording to Tautech, the protocol to send a captured signal to an AWG is not standardized and therefore a match is required. Obviously, you can export a waveform to a file and import that on the AWG, but the option being as streamlined as possible is worth something.The divide between analogue and digital isn't that neat. The fun part is distorting and damaging digital signals to see what happenshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1311071/#msg1311071

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 03:47:00 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 02:07:24 pmFor someinexplicablereason, you've snipped important context, so here it is again...Quote from: tggzzz on September 28, 2017, 01:20:16 pm... but it turns out you weren't interested in signal generators after all, and, as I suggested, AWGs were relevant.QuoteActually, the divide is strong, unambiguous and very important :analogue signals conveyenergyfrom transmitter to receiver, digital signals conveyinformationfrom transmitter to receiver.Distorting and damaging digital signals is trivially easy: all you have to do is flip/insert/delete bits.If you are thinking of "distorting and damaging digital signals", then it is most likely you are intending to changeanaloguesignals that willsubsequentlybeinterpretedas digital signals. That can indeed be enlightening, provided the AWG is fast enough and the changes you introduce are representative of those you will find in the wild. Mobile/wireless comms channel models are a classic source of such things.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 05:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 02:07:24 pmActually it is quite common to be able to export/import CSV files but it may take some editing. For example: I have used data captured on a GW Instek scope on a Siglent signal generator. This wasn't as straightforward as I would have like due to the Siglent generator wanting a specific header in the CSV file but in the end it worked.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 06:04:27 pm
content: I have an Instek GPC-3020 and it gets a lot of use. Still, there are two issues I have with it. Both are fixable, but you should know about them1. the voltage pots are extremely sensitive, and really it could use multiturn pots there, which I plan to add. Fix, find two compatible multi-turn pots to replace the voltage pots.2. The second you turn it on a loud fan distracts you from your work and runs like a airliner taxiing to takeoff until you turn the power supply off. Fix, replace the 24volt fan with a quieter one that includes a thermistor so it only runs fast when major cooling is actually needed.Quote from: nanofrog on September 19, 2017, 01:01:21 am

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 11:56:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 26, 2017, 11:51:39 pmIt was a reasonable stance, based on the facts and estimations available at the time. An estimated Q1 release means that it may or may not appear within 6 months. Now we know a little more.Quote from: tggzzz on September 28, 2017, 03:47:00 pmThe superfluous context has been cut, to prevent cluttering the discussion up with endless nesting. Those who might get confused will figure out how to scroll back eventuallyI was talking about an upgrade to an AWG all along. Sorry for any confusion.Again, the divide between analogue and digital signals isn't so obvious. Any digital signal is also an analogue signal and how that analogue signal looks exactly has consequences in the digital world. Slew rate and other forms of distortion that differ from the ideal digital signal may or may not have an impact on performance

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 12:16:54 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 27, 2017, 12:39:48 amTopLoser's multimeter has been sold before I could do enough research to see whether it would fit my needs. I must say the 200000 count Brymen BM869s sounds attractive, even though it lacks mobile logging capabilities. However, I do think I have other priorities at the moment. When I really start needing it, I will evaluate the options to find the most suitable match.Louis has posted his video on the Quick. It's what I would consider a rave review.I'm looking at eBay listings from people in countries that have reasonable shipping, including the Netherlands and Germany. There seems to be a huge amount of low quality stuff, with a bit of high price top quality mixed in. I'm still looking for that affordable gem that might be in there somewhere, but I might very well pull the trigger on the Korad and go from there. So far, I've not seen anyone complain about it, save Dave's review before the fix.Magnifying glasses have never really felt comfortable to use. Maybe a magnifying lamp is different, but the Opti-visors sound like a better option. However, I do take the buy once cry once approach too, so I'll figure out what to do with that as I go along.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 12:30:51 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 29, 2017, 11:56:23 amThere are other simple and less charitable interpretations. It is considered bad form to snip conversations in ways that change the intent and meaning of other people's posts.QuoteNo, for the reason given.You are describing "signal integrity", i.e. an analogue signal that will be received and then interpreted as a digital signal. Exactly what sample rate do you require an AWG to have, in order that it be useful to you for signal integrity experiments?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 02:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 28, 2017, 05:32:33 pmUnless things are designed properly strange, exporting a CSV and importing it elsewhere should generally be possible. I wouldn't be inclined to buy anything without it. However, in your example, you would need a computer and some extra work to do it. I'm not scared of a little scripting work to ease the pain, but if I can eliminate that hassle and the need for a pc in the process, it certainly is worth it to me.Quote from: tggzzz on September 29, 2017, 12:30:51 pmI must say that I'm rather confused by the level of distrust and the implied accusations and I don't quite feel I have deserved either.Right now I'm mainly working with microcontrollers and associated slow-ish bitrates. However, I'm not looking to buy an AWG right now, but I don't want to paint myself into a corner later either.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 02:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 29, 2017, 02:50:08 pmBecause you changed the context of what was said and why it was said.Why am I not surprised you didn't take the hint about snipping conversations.It is disrespectful of readers' time to expect them to trawl back through past postings to try to recover useful context that you have chosen to unnecessarily delete.PS: if you dislike context, I suggest you head over to stackexchange or edaboard. While they seem great for "which button do I press to do X" type questions, they are very poor when it comes to answering and discussing more subtle and interesting topics.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 03:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 29, 2017, 12:16:54 pmIts predecessor, theU1252A, is currently available from another member on eBay (nmori87) in NEW condition for $180 + shipping, and he does sell internationally. Dave's also done a review on the U1253A, so you might want to give it a look and see if it's suitable to you (U1252A does do stand-alone logging).Regarding the Brymen BM869S, it's only a 50,000 count meter (4-4/5 digit). The 500,000 count mode effects resolution in DC mode only (5-4/5 digit). So be aware that DC accuracy remains the same, nor does it work with any other mode.I suspect pricing will be very similar between the two units. And if this is the case, you'll have to seriously reconsider the desire for stand-alone logging. Especially if its primary use is for bench work, as you'll want access to a PC on the bench anyway.Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 29, 2017, 12:16:54 pmThanks.I'm aware it's up, but haven't watched it just yet.Edit: I've watched it in its entirety, and Louis's assessment matches my experiences as well (i.e. I've a Luxo swing-arm lamp with a 5000K LED bulb installed, which flickers like a SOB when running the Quick 861DW). Overall, it's an excellent station, price not withstanding; take the price into consideration however, the value increases significantly IMHO.Initially, I presumed my experience regarding the lighting flicker was an anomaly. Fortunately, I suspect it can be fixed (shouldn't have to, but the price difference makes the aggravation/fix acceptable IMHO).FWIW, I've some 5000K LED strips for the underside of my bench; 0.5m on the under-side of each of the lowest half-shelves (2 * 0.5m strips) for bench lighting. They're independently wired with a linear PSU as the primary source of power.FWIW, I got the PSU (+/- 12V @ 1.7A) as surplus fromSkycraftthe last time I was in Orlando in 2014 (paid $15 for the PSU and ~$6 for 4 fl. oz. of Kester 1544).The caps in mine are of 1996 vintage, nor do they have any leaks or bulges from what I can tell. And they seem OK from what I'm able to test.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2017, 11:29:21 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 29, 2017, 02:53:00 pmI don't know why you're so adamant to get a rise out of me. I have not had or displayed any ill intent, nor have I deserved your distrust or accusations. To prevent endless nesting and clutter, I've removed all but the last message in the conversation. I've done this consistently in this thread and throughout the forums and no one has taken offence so far, except for you. If manipulation was the purpose, doing the same thing consistently seems besides the point. It would also seem to be a rather feeble attempt to hide something that's already in plain sight, as the messages are displayed in the very context of the thread they originate from. They are out there for the world to see and I can't change that, nor do I want to.Even though I hope we can put aside these differences, I fear that my words will not change the way things are. If this is the case, I have to kindly ask you to keep your worries to yourself, start a conversation about the matter elsewhere or, if you're convinced of foul play, ask a member of the moderation crew to look into what transpired. This thread is about a lab upgrade and associated considerations. Comments on this are obviously more than welcome.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2017, 11:31:04 pm
content: Thanks to everyone who contributed in a useful fashion to this thread. You've given me a lot to consider, research and think about. I've gone back and forth on a number of things and thoroughly confused myself a few times too, but I think I've made some progress.- I've decided to hold out for the Siglent SDS1204X-E. Obviously, the reports have to be favourable if and when it arrives, or I will go for the DS1054Z instead. We'll see how things pan out. In the meantime, I've ordered a Velleman WFS210, in the hopes it will be enough to keep the momentum of a few projects going until the SDS1204X-E materializes. I'm very much aware that this the project in itself that I wanted to avoid and that it's barely comparable to the real oscilloscopes, but the main attraction that it's cheap. Cheap enough to be a bit cavalier with it and any experimentation done to and with it. Again, we'll see.- Looking at power supplies, I've been trawling through eBay and similar sites for a good deal, but haven't quite been able to locate any. If nothing pops up, I will probably go for the dual channel Korad. It's cheap enough for it not to be a total disaster if it doesn't turn out to be good, but by all accounts, it's actually decent. It's linear, it's programmable and it can take some abuse. Adding a supply with more provenance later is always an option, in which case the Korad could serve as a supply for more adventurous experiments.- Other than the light flicker issue, the Quick seems to be unbeatable. It should serve my purposes more than adequately and should allow me to start prototyping with some of the more awkward packages.- Tempting as it is, I think I have to put my multimeter desires aside for a while, at least until I have some of the other gear sorted.- I'm also looking to buy a basic set of decent banana leads. Maybe something like silicone Hirschmann leads of a few different lengths. I'm working with cheap Chinese variants now, but I'm getting less and less amused by shoddy workmanship, metal flakes in my test lead sockets and so forth.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 02:50:37 pm
content: I've been talking to someone about HP E3631A, but it looks like it just got snapped up. I don't seem to have much luck when it comes to power supplies, so I may very well just go for the dual output Korad. Yes, I'm aware they're not quite the same breed. My main concern right now is that I can power microcontroller and FPGA circuits, and that I can characterize small SMPSs. Both should be doable, although the latter obviously also needs a programmable load.It's a shame, but I guess the HP was a bit too expensive anyway.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 06:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 03, 2017, 11:31:04 pmI have a bunch of these myself. IMHO they are very affordable (if you look around a bit for a cheap supplier) and not worth the hassle of using inferior test leads. Even under high load they work as they should.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2017, 02:05:11 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 09, 2017, 06:29:24 pmWhere did you buy them, if I may ask?

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 04:37:18 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on September 28, 2017, 06:04:27 pmCDEV,I have just picked up one of these GPC-3020's, possibly from the ITT demise as well. Mine is coming out of north Florida. I would like to make the changes you have mentioned as well as locate the manuals you referred to in another thread. Did you get to doing anything to it ? If you could point me toward those manuals that would be great. I have done a bit of searching but so far what I have come up with is not too good. Thanks

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 08:02:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 03, 2017, 11:29:21 pmThere is usually no benefit to removing the context in which a response was made -- and therearemany disadvantages.There has been no suggestion of "ill intent", as youcannoteasily see from what I wrote since I snipped it. That suggestion is a strawman argument.It is often insufficient to regard the entire thread as "context": threads naturally divide into sub-threads. One extreme example is the "TEA" threadIn the absence of a threaded display mechanism, the only way of preserving that useful information is via quoting.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 09:13:58 pm
content: We should start a separate thread on this. Yes, I definitely want to fix the loud fan.Safely.The documentation I have on it are namedmanualfuenteGW-GPC3030D.pdf andTek_PS280-283_Service_Manual_Schematics.pdf -will have to see if I can find the links to it.Both manuals have relevant info but neither is the exact same unit. You'll see what I mean.Quote from: Old Printer on January 23, 2018, 04:37:18 pm

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 10:24:10 pm
content: Thanks CDEV, I have seen the TEK version of the manual, did not realize that was what you were referring to. I'll download it and compare it to my unit when it arrives in a few days. If you find the link to the other that would be great as i have not seen that. Yes, another thread is in order, there are probably a lot of these units out there by now. Maybe right here in the forum.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 11:39:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 23, 2018, 08:02:01 pmAs I've stated before, any further discussion on the matter will have to take place elsewhere.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 08:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 23, 2018, 09:13:58 pmWhat helps a lot are rubber fan mounts. A couple of months ago I got a GW Instek PSP-603 bench power supply and it is nice but the fan resonates to the casing.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 09:34:33 pm
content: For convenience, here's the GW Instek GPC-3020 manuals mentioned above.GW Instek 3020D Manual(covers the analog version as well)Tektronix PS280 -283 Service Manual(110pgs., contains schematics)

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 10:38:44 pm
content: Thanks much NanofrogHad not been able to find that version of the User Manual.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 03:26:23 am
content: @NCTNico, that is such a ridiculously good suggestion as soon as I was done with dinner I rushed to take a look and see if it was possible to do that tonight and have what would amount to a whole new power supply (the noise really annoys me) unfortunately, it looks really tight in there. But as you can see, you are definitely right.Also, this power supply is really built like a tank. Look at that huge heat sink in there.So what I am thinking is that what is called for is a thinner 24v fan, and then it should be possible to isolate it much better. It won't take much. I am attaching some photos I took just now.Thank you for the suggestion!Quote from: nctnico on January 24, 2018, 08:00:51 pm

author: gearshredder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 07:49:55 am
content: The fan in the PS280 is a AD0612HS-C70GL 60x20mm, 12VDC 16.4CFM 0.16A.The heat sink arrangement is very different in the PS280. It is very open.It is also only held on my two of the 4 mounting positions.