Going Paperless: More Harm Than Good? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Longhair
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 02:57:19 pm
content: I have a hard time spending long period of times reading text from the monitor because it hurts my eyes. I end up printing everything out and putting it in a binder so it could be read anytime when I am away from the computer. So I was looking at my "print" folder and seen that I have literally hundreds of pages to print out - even with duplex printing there are hundreds of pages. Instead of spending the time printing everything out and then wondering where I was going to place it all, I started looking at e-readers.A lot of the reviews were saying "this version is better than the last version" (same brand) and a lot of forum posts were like "I like the (newest version) over the all the older versions - yes I've owned them all - and it is even better than the (insert other brand) newest version - yes I owned all of those also."That means that someone is buying a new ereader every time one is released because it is better than the last one.In a few years when the next generation goes completely paperless, the trees will have to be cleared away for landfills instead of paper? That doesn't sound like a good trade off to me.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 03:34:53 pm
content: i stick with the real books (for serious reading).

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:05:24 pm
content: Have you tried adjusting your monitor so you can read on it well? Reduce contrast, brightness, refresh etc., I can sit on a monitor for hours and never get eye fatigue, its my butt that hurts more.Ereaders are at the phase of rapid growth, remember when PCs were faster every month? The same thing happened to calculators & cell phones.Most Ereaders are for pocket book sized, and mostly are sold to folks who like reading for pleasure. Technical material is mostly written for 8x 11 inches paper and its a mixed bag because the formatting makes it awkward when shrunk to only 1/4 its size. Its also difficult to read some technical books that require you to jump from chapter to chapter, like Art of Electronics.New generation ereaders are prototyped to sizes >= 8x11, but so far, nothing on the market for actual sale.That said I'm 99% paperless; except for some technical documents I need to read that require large printouts like schematics, or official, legal and tax documents, or Art of Electronics or High Speed Digital Design, I haven't used paper in over 10 years.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:11:36 pm
content: As far as reading from the screen, I think most people will agree with you that it's not as comfortable as reading paper. Studies have show that retention is also lower for texts read on screen vs. paper. Some of it may be related to the fact that if we read on screen, it's easy to get distracted by browsers or email or other things, but I also think it has to do with resolution. The average human eye is capable of resolving about 180-200 dots per inch resolution at which point things take on a "photographic" appearance. Most monitors available only provide between 85-110 dpi and it's not getting any better now that people are buying into the HD monitors which are really low resolution vs. their size. The average e-ink screen is well above 110 dpi with no refresh rate, and there are e-inks in development that have nearly 400 dpi resolution. At that point it will look as sharp or sharper than the print in a book. I personally am waiting for color e-ink before I take the leap.As for out of control consumerism, I don't know what to say

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:42:04 pm
content: I can't read datasheets and journal articles on my e-reader so at work I print everything and recycle it. I like to highlight and write on work related documents as well. When I am at home I read off my e-reader (Kindle) for pleasure. If you are getting an e-reader get an e-ink based e-reader. It looks and reads identical to ink on paper.

author: Longhair
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:53:19 pm
content: If I were to get an e-reader, I would get something the size of the Kindle DX and make sure it can read anything I throw at it (.pdf, .doc and .docx word files, etc.). A lot of hands-on (not someone else's hands) of a lot of different makes and models would be in order before I settle on one.Color would be nice but then the line is being crossed from e-reader to tablet (what is available in today's market). I'd rather have a netbook over a tablet though... Wait, I do have a netbook

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 04:56:44 pm
content: I can deal with reading things like datasheets on my monitor, but that's because it's decently big. I would prefer to have hardcopies, because like those above have said it's nice to be able to highlight important points, and actually sit down to read things. Same reason I haven't gotten all my textbooks in a digital format.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 06:29:30 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on January 11, 2011, 04:05:24 pmThe Kindle DX is quite a bit bigger than any other mainstream e-ink device I know of. That's probably as big as it can get with that form factor. Any bigger and it might as well be a laptop.As for environmental effects, I think e-ink will turn out to be much better once you compare it to the equivalent amount of regular paper it replaces.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 06:55:49 pm
content: I have an 8" e-reader (iLiad). I'm very happy with it but it will never sustitute all my real books, some of them MUST be the real thing.

author: Longhair
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 07:50:43 pm
content: Regular paper comes from a renewable source - trees - and can be 100% recycled. E-readers are made from a non-renewable source - oil - and cannot be 100% recycled.No matter how many trees that an e-reader saves today, it will become tomorrows landfill when it either breaks or a new improved version comes out. That is the side of the argument of "going green" nobody wants to talk about - the waste created by replacing everything to be "green".

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 08:00:36 pm
content: The point of going paperless is to do it whenever is possible.If it is not possible, like in your case, then don't do it.Is not a must that you need to do something like been green or else, but we all need to help this world.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 08:28:57 pm
content: Yes, you're right Mike, but the screen isn't 8x11", its about 10", the whole device is more 8x11. 8x11 is about 14" diagonal. I would idealize something like this, but so far, its vaporhardware:Right now I make do with the Jetbook Lite:It does the job, I read mostly pdfs, most are readable and its AA powered, SD card driven, and $100. Its engine is the Dr. Yi reader, a pretty decent unique design from the ground up ereader developed in China.Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 11, 2011, 06:29:30 pm

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 09:01:41 pm
content: I prefer reading on the screen myself and fail to understand why people prefer paper.On the screen I can highlight and zoom in on text, I can open up the same document in more than one window and view different pages side by side. I find it easier to sit back in a comfy chair and look at the monitor than to sit hunched over my desk reading a book.I think older people prefer paper because it's what they're used to and they don't know how to use a computer properly.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 09:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on January 11, 2011, 09:01:41 pmI'm young, and I prefer books for most things. For things like data sheets I can work with them on my machine because I'm usually next to it while working. For the reasons you mentioned it's better. For actual learning resources though, I'll take my books. I'd rather sit on the sofa and read that kind of material.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on January 11, 2011, 09:21:40 pmHere's picture illustrating my point.To do this with a book I'd need a photocopier.If I wanted to read on my sofa, I'd either buy a laptop or connect my PC to my TV.At work I have a laptop with a monitor which is even better as I can view even more pages simultaneously.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:06:19 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on January 11, 2011, 11:02:43 pmI didn't say machines were useless. I said they have their applications. For things like datasheets they work better. They take an assload of ink and paper to print off. For something like a textbook on electronics I'll take a book over a digital copy. I never highlight in books anyway, so it's not an issue.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:47:59 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on January 11, 2011, 11:06:19 pmExactly why waste ink and paper printing stuff off? The only time I do that is when I need it where I can't take a PC but I only print what I need. Even then I have a mono laser printer which is dirt cheap to run.QuoteThat screenshot showed a book: The Art of Electronics.One of the things I like about ebooks is I can make notes on them and annotate them without ruining the original.I'm also not very good at looking after paper books and after awhile the pages get torn, dirty and the spine broken.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2011, 11:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on January 11, 2011, 11:06:19 pmI agree: datasheets, program code or other text you just have to rapidly take a look at can be on the screen (PC allows also to search for keywords!), but when you have to read and understand deeply something I prefer a printed copy. I'm not that old, 28 years, and my first PC was when I was only 10...I find physical pages easier to remember, since I recall in my mind the exact place where a certain thing was written on the page, while scrolling a page on screen (and a single page at once) doesnt's give the same. Perhaps a good monitor (ah, why do they only sell those 16:9 screens, today, is it that PCs are only used for watching films?!!) would make the difference, I should try...

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 12:03:48 am
content: QuoteWhat about the oil used to transport the paper and the oil used to make the toner/dyes used to print the paper? Not to mention the oil used to drive to a library - which can be very significant.And I highly doubt people will just throw away the old devices when they upgrade unless the device is broken beyond repair. Most likely, they'll keep the device for another family member, give it to a friend, or sell it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2011, 12:49:02 am
content: for serious reading (real book) this is what i prefer when i want to sit back and relax:1) far from irritating neon (lcd) light, pc fan noise, karpal tunneling keyboard and mouse.2) no need to worry about plugging wires, deteriorating battery, possible electricity outage.3) can open the book at an instance, the same when closing it, take a nap for 5 minutes and re-open again. not having to wait another 5 minutes to boot and "de-boot"4) jot down some additional info/diagram on the page and be there for the rest of its life.5) multiple bookmarks that 5 (or 10) fingers is all it take to flip it within second. no scrolling problem, no need mega foot/inches monitor size.6) we move the book closer if the text is too small, not take our head close to the monitor.7) not worry dropping it or spilling it with water.Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 12, 2011, 12:03:48 amthats off topic. people use oil for everything, not just solely for the book. and i dont go to library but still be able to read. once the book got printed and in our hand, we can go to any cave, light up some fire, and start the reading business. with computer, how about the saving the electricity business?Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 12, 2011, 12:03:48 ami got friends who upgraded their cellphone and pc every few months and re-sell their older stuffs. only them think that they are not wasting anything. they are victim to the trend... like fashion, like girlsimho, this paperless buzz only very suitable for government and private sectors who use documentation, letters, paperworks alot, which the lifetime of the paper is very short (even just for several days, and it goes to dustbin). for short document (1-5 pages), sometime i prefer reading on pc, but for hundreds of pages of book, the fatigue/concentration factor for using the pc is much more significant.my 2 cents.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2011, 05:36:12 pm
content: I personally find that reading more than a page or two from a pdf to be counter productive as by the time I get to the end of page two I have forgotten the details of page one. With a hard copy this is not so true and retetion is much better (but not perfect).Also if you need to refer back to something, with a hard copy a quick flick through will usually get you somewhere near your point of interest not so with a pdf (Usually resort to a search if I can recall a keyword). The beauty of a hard copy is what I call tactile memory the physical turning of pages and holding of the book re enforces it's content.Maybe I'm of that age as all my formal learning was in book form but I certainly struggle with ebooks.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2011, 05:42:01 pm
content: I can't learn or read technical stuff on an e-book but my casual reading is all done on an e-reader. I tend to read 3-4 novels at once so having an e-reader is ideal.The technology isn't quite there yet for e-readers to be versatile enough to make technical text comfortable.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2011, 05:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: Time on January 13, 2011, 05:42:01 pmUntil you posted I hadn't thought about it but you are right, I find tech pubs far too heavy going in electronic format but non tech very much eaisier.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2011, 02:09:13 pm
content: If reading on the LCD is giving you eye strains consider changing everything to gray font on black. I mod my firefox so that the whole interface is like that (You need to extensions to do it properly), including overriding all the web page colour schemes. Decent PDF readers also allow you to do that. Personally I don't have a kindle yet. Maybe I'll get on when the DX price comes down.