Rotary tools in support of electronics, Dremel and more .. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 12:05:53 pm
content: One accessory that can make life easy when modifying cases, physical components in housings or parts, hacking PCBs, dead bug construction and more, is a rotary tool. In the USA, and maybe elsewhere, the market is dominated by Dremel.However, the years have shown a reduction in quality and materials used to build Dremel rotary tools, and many competitors either can meet or exceed its performance at a lower price, or far exceed it, at a higher price.What models do you recommend?Are the original accessories still better than clones or competitors? That is bits, wheels, cutters?As more names are gathered, I'll add it to the poll for a vote on the most often used tool among eevblog users.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 12:16:25 pm
content: The Dremel tools use a rubber mounted bearing, not so good for precision work. The major advantage is that they are stocked just about everywhere and are relatively cheap.My preferred small grinding/milling tool is a Proxxon Micromot 50/E. A lot dearer but worth every cent (or euro or whatever...)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 12:19:08 pm
content: i like to use a Dremel tool but cheap 3rd party bits, the dremel bits are expensive

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 12:23:05 pm
content: I prefer to use air powered die grinders and micro die grinders I have a couple of desouter and atlas copco ones they have the advantage of running cooler and being lighter and smaller.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 12:26:31 pm
content: Proxxon is a little bit expensive but it's the most precise you can find

author: notsob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 12:28:03 pm
content: Proxon are far better than dremel , & do not buy a dremel drill press - the mount for the dremel tool is plastic & moves when the bit makes contact & the one I had, did not even hold the dremel vertically - it was out a few degrees, I had to "dremel" out the plastic moulding to correct it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 01:08:40 pm
content: yeah, i have the dremel drill press.It's only useful for the most crude of tasks and has no precision at all. Far too many plastic parts.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 03:09:15 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on July 06, 2012, 12:23:05 pmI highly agree, They also have higher rpm typically 40k to 90k rpm. That is very effective for tools roughly 6mm dia. and smaller. On the other hand those speeds are an accident waiting to happen with larger diameter cutoff wheels. That is where the variable speed electrics have an advantage with low speed torque. Also if you are polishing with a felt buff and a compound of some sort, low rpms is a benefit in not slinging the compound off instantly.General info on bonded grinding wheel behavior on metals. (does not apply to plated abrasive wheels):Wheel bonds are made in different levels of hardness and there are various types of bonds used, vitrified (form of glass), shellac, rubber, etc. Hardness refers to how strongly the bond material holds the abrasive particles to each other. Typically a hard bond is used on soft materials and a soft bond on hard materials. The ideal hardness will have a abrasive particle break the bond and fall out when it is dull. This makes the wheel self sharpening.Why do you care? The surface speed of the wheel changes the effective hardness of the wheel no matter what hardness it is. Slower makes it behave softer and faster makes it behave harder. So when you are using a wheel, if it seems like it is not cutting very effectively slow it down until you start to get some slow wheel breakdown (self sharpening). On the other hand if the wheel just seems to disappear as you try to grind, speed it up. There are limits to how far speed can effect hardness so a wheel can be too soft or too hard for a particular material. All of this applies to a wheel that is NOT loaded up with smeared metal or severely glazed. So use a dressing stick to clean the wheel surface before you start.EDIT:When you dress a wheel you want to break bonds and remove whole abrasive particles, not gently rub the tops off abrasive particles leaving a hopelessly dull wheel. You have to be a little agressive.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 03:39:54 pm
content: With air tools it is very easy to just throttle down the speed with the paddle lever, the down side is they sound like a dentists drill.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 04:56:04 pm
content: I have a Ryobi rotary tool that runs circles around my old Dremel.For serious work, a "super-dremel" (AKA a die grinder) comes in handy:http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/makita/us/products/GD0800C.asp?cagpspn=pla&gclid=CNnF-9XBhbECFQgGnQodrH1Y7A

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 06:52:59 pm
content: To add a bit to robenz' write up here is a little trade secret for grinding aluminium.Once I was involved in design and production of a new façade for an office building which consisted of nearly 20 tons of aluminium sheets welded up - all welds to be ground flush and polished to match the original finish. My guesstimate is that we removed close to a ton of aluminium by grinding alone. So I had enough time to go though all of the Murphy's laws concerning aluminium and its grinding.Aluminium is very nasty to grind with abrasives as it fouls up the abrasive immediately and once fouled the stone (or flap disks in our case) can not be recovered. One little known remedy is to use lard as a lubricant. Yes, common lard and I know it is 21'st century. Liberal amounts of animal lard is applied to the part being worked and the grinding medium. As the part is being worked it heats up and melts the lard which then flows and lubricates and almost totally prevents fouling up of the grinding medium. I've experimented with most other substances out there and nothing works anywhere near as good including all sorts of oils greases emulsions suspensions old wife remedies and what not.It makes an absolute horrid mess as blackened drops of molten lard sling all around and solidify as they hit the wall and ceiling, so be warned this is not something you want to try in the living room. Wear goggles and some old t-shit you don't like.Lard is a hard white substance with consistency reminiscent of soap or candle wax (i.e. it is purified not raw). It should be available in hardware stores if lots of aluminium is being worked around the area. It is also raw material for common soap.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 07:07:13 pm
content: I use Johnson's #140 stick wax. It is made for this and behaves exactly like the lard including the horrendous mess. Also works well for using carbide burrs on aluminum. You can dip the running burr in the wax. My tube of it is probably 30 years old but it is still available.HAL-42b, I am glad we can count on each other to get OT in the machining direction

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 07:33:59 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on July 06, 2012, 07:07:13 pmI'm kinda glad that we don't have "everything brand name" around here yet. Most things are sold as bulk commodity. Or maybe it is simply due to the quantities that I am used to deal with.QuoteIt's a pleasure

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 07:41:11 pm
content: One of the hardest things to machine is soft silicone.PTFE is a far second, and Vesconite is great to machine bushes out of. Much better wear properties than bronze, and nice to work with, though you have to be careful with thin sections, you need sharp tooling and multiple small passes to get to the final size.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 07:59:25 pm
content: As for picking the right rotary tool ... Forget about dremelIf anything avoid the ones that look like the dremel normal seriesGo for the ones that have a 25mm chuck or a 6mm chuckPS: I'm throwing out my dremel clone that hardly works anymore once i get a new die grinder

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2012, 09:18:36 pm
content: I use zirconium flap disc's for grinding aluminium no need for any lard or wax as the material is made non clogging. There is also a special aluminum grinding wheel which is silver in color and does not need lubricant as it contains it already.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2012, 07:42:39 pm
content: My tip is..don't rotate it, vibrate it (any woman knows that!)From a older tread..https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-chat/cutting-square-holes-for-instruments/msg108707/#msg108707

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2012, 09:14:07 pm
content: Somebody put Foredom in the list. Odd though that nobody has mentioned flexible shaft tools. These blow a typical dremel tool away both with precision and flexibility. They aren't cheap, but a good one with a Jacobs chuck/handle will last a lifetime with occasional replacement of the flexible shaft and brushes. I've owned a Vigor that I bought from a Jewelry tool supply and some other quality miniature tools about 35 years ago that works just as good today. Unlike a Dremel, these generally don't use collets unless you specifically buy a collet style handpiece. It's always hanging there ready to use rather then digging it out of a box or kit. Most of the Chinese knock offs are crap, but a few of them are actually very well made. You don't see these too much outside Jewelry repair, but they are one of the essential must haves in my book. One particular Chinese made unit that was sold by craft suppliers was housed in a blue or green plastic housing that was excellent. The shaft was supple as a hose and the handpiece was a near identical copy of the Jacobs #30 and the foot pedal while plastic was a very smooth speed control, much better I think then mine. These were selling for about $50USD and less at places like Harbor Freight. Most places replaced these with a metal housed unit that's garbage with a stiff shaft and shitty handle, but the Blue one is still around and a much better deal then a Dremel.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2012, 09:34:36 pm
content: You can get flexible shaft tools in varying sizes as well I have seen monsters with 5KW 3 phase motors for grinding. There used to be a very good make called Flextool I have not seen them around for a while another good make was Wolsey they made flex shaft tools as well as sheep shears.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2012, 01:13:45 am
content: Quote from: Dawn on July 11, 2012, 09:14:07 pmI've an old Dremel of this type I inherited. Much easier to work with than the non-flex shaft versions IMHO as well.Not sure how it stacks up with Foredom or similar though, as I've not had access to them.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2012, 01:56:02 am
content: Proxxon, I have a few models they have bearings made in heaven. Drills 0.25 mm holes without breaking carbide drills, the drill stand is available from amazon cheap and very useful and very rigid compared to Dremel toys. Once you tried a Proxxon, you will never look back, Dremel is immediately at the bottom of list, it has shitty bearings. Foredom is too expensive.Many has converted Proxxon tools into cnc.Flex shaft is not the answer to precision stuff, and it requires regular maintenance. It is not as flexible as holding the Proxxon Micromot. It is a low voltage and lightweight tool it provide full freedom. I feel that flex shaft is always fighting me whenever I want to change angle. It is especially useful for micro engraving PCB, it works really well. Despite being an AC motor, you can power it from your DC power supply albeit with less torque(unless you build a PWM). It starts with a gentle hum from 6V you can use it in the silent of the night but don't let this little gem fool you it's bloody monster when it's at 15V. I fit a 2mm endmill to mill aluminium block quite slowly.The advantage of bigger brother mains powered Proxxons over Dremels are their precision bearings and balanced motors. Other than that, I don't see much different. Proxxon has very little vibration which makes them a fine tool. Just think about it the next time you use your Dremel. The Dremel is like a tool trying escape from your hands when it's on. My biggest regret is buying a second Dremel. Get a Proxxon you won't be disapointed.Finally not everything is good with Proxxon, I find some of their engraving bits quite 'unfinished'. Dremel makes very fine bits.On therightis a factory Proxxon bit that I fixed manually.

author: Fallingwater
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2012, 12:37:07 pm
content: My "good" rotary is a mains-powered Black&Decker RT650. Back when I bought it a Dremel would have cost me neatly twice as much (they have come down in price since). I often read bad opinions about B&D, but I've gotta say the RT650 is a good tool. It has torque to spare and I've had no trouble with the bearings. I put a drill-style chuck on it because I was tired of losing the little triwing collets every time I had to change bit size and it's been my main rotary tool for the last decade.I also have a nail-art rotary I got from a friend after she gave up on the activity and sold her gear. It looks a lot likethis, except for the color. The motor is much smaller than an ordinary Dremel; it's about the size of one of those pistol-grip cordless Dremels, but without the grip part. It has impressive torque for something that small and that, uh, pink.The collet has a twist-grip arrangement that works really well at releasing bits, and the base has a variable speed setting and lets you change direction, though there's little point in running it reversed. It's also surprisingly quiet considering its power. Torque-wise it obviously can't match the mains-powered RT650, but for precision jobs it blows it into the weeds - bits meant for grinding stone-hard nail-art gel and acrylic have little trouble eating through relatively soft materials like plastic, and can go through harder stuff given enough effort.I also have a couple of cordless cheapies with nothing interesting to remark on. I use them for low-power jobs around the house.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2012, 11:10:46 pm
content: Thanks everyone for their insight into so many rotary tools of use in electronics. Please keep them coming, I think this thread is one of the better ones on the net, as it covers so many types of tools in one spot, very well described and detailed.Eyeballing Proxxon reviews on Amazon.com, for 115/E and IB/E units, ~ 25% complain [ 3 star or less reviews] of early failures with motors smoking as a fairly common symptom. Anyone experience this?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 12:23:11 am
content: I only know dremels suffer from premature brush failure, fake or not.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 04:14:15 am
content: Quote from: saturation on July 12, 2012, 11:10:46 pmThe parts listing on thier website shows a geared drive. That is why the spindle is offset from the body. It does not look like it would be very robust.

author: StubbornGreek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 05:07:57 am
content: I use a Dremel with a flex shaft attached but I've been eye-balling a proxxon for a while - I just can't justify the purchase as I use other tools for precision work (like a drill press, etc.) and my little Dremel (ok, I have a few) does everything I need it to.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 05:02:40 pm
content: EDIT: posted my negative thoughts on this thing above.:DI just found this milwaukee unit. If it the same quality as all the other milwaukee stuff I have it will be a winner. The reviews are very positive. I know it is battery powered. If you dont like that hook up to your PS at 12V. Milwaukee manual/parts list shows no guts so cant see internals.I dont like the typical "plastic shell at resonant frequency" sound in the video but that is a big disk and probably running at its top 32000 rpm. I do like the electronic overload protection that kicked in in the video, very nice. I know my M12 drill and my M12 driver also do a forced shut off at the low battery level, also very nice.The kit is better buy than the bare tool without battery. For $20.00 more you get a $45.00 battery and a chargerMilwaukee press releasehttp://www.milwaukeetool.com/news/press-releases/1146You tube review.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 05:06:44 pm
content: I concur, I give their design the benefit of the doubt, but Amazon users review suggest the design can have issues particularly if the motor is overloaded or even run for extended periods, the geared connection is a source of heat generation, and transfer loss probably caps the upper speed to 20krpm.The Dremel design is a more reliable direct drive, and far less parts.Quote from: robrenz on July 13, 2012, 04:14:15 am

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 06:15:08 pm
content: Brushes wear proportionate to use. If they are cheaply made and wear, which I haven't found to be the case, they are easy to get a hold of, and worse can you can get any brush that is sized like it. I used to find them generic in Asia, and kept a box I never used I paid a $1 for 10 or so, just find the right size and shape.The Dremels rotary tool has its faults, but the core design is simple, little can go wrong. Its basically unchanged for 50 years, and the current series 100,200 is identical to the Mototool series of 1992, and the 3000 is a just a 300 in a new body. Its principal advantage over Black and Decker or Chinese nameless clones, is the older technology is easy to fix DIY, modify if needed, its 'schematic' and part are 'open', and easily available. Its like the VW bug of cars, if you don't mind a VW bug.It will pay for owners to disassemble and understand how it works, and were it can fail.I've seen other people's problems with it most due to job sizes that were better off with a die grinder, or often misused: applying pressure to the wheel/bits to speed up a work, then complain of rapid wheel wear or the motor bog down, both tasks accelerates wear on the drive system, overheat the chassis, and premature fail any electronics.Worse case the parts are fairly cheap and easy to acquire in the USA, the Mexican parts, particularly the rotor and stator are reliable, but like others before it, unsealed [ so it can get fatally dirty when grit enters the motor]; its basically a universal brushed motor with a on/off switch or a light dimmer [ variable control], it can easily be bypassed with wires and solder, then later add an external light dimmer to provide continuously variable control.Thus, the cheapest basic 275 or 100 model kept clean and given a supply of brushes, will most likely die from mileage related use, and far less than quality defects.Quote from: DaveXRT on July 13, 2012, 12:23:11 am

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 06:21:25 pm
content: Or it can be due to stress from incorrect brush tuning- Actually, i mean positioning

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 06:44:37 pm
content: I have a Dremel Professional model #398 that has served me well for the last 8 years with no problems. It is better constructed than the cheaper models. But it is a retired model.Like saturation says these have real motors in them.http://www.ereplacementparts.com/dremel-398-f013039807-corded-multitool-parts-c-15440_15456_15477.html

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 08:07:27 pm
content: Yes, you are right.I've seen it on factory new boxed models too or poorly reassembled by users: the cap isn't screwed on correctly so as the brushes age the tension of the spring isn't what it should be, causing it to loose contact prematurely or provide uneven pressure on the commutator, so the brush errodes unevenly.The older models with stiffer plastic or even metal screw caps were more reliable, but the new soft plastic caps can be screwed in improperly. The good news is the cost cutting by Dremel can't go any further since the chassis needs to be rigid enough to support the bearings, so the chassis is pretty much that from the 1992 version, and similar quality.On bad thing Dremel did in the 1990s was use a Bosch "safety" feature, a plastic clutch connecting the motor to the drive shaft. With overloading, this 'flex coupler' would break severing the shaft from the motor. Alas, with just age all these coupling meant guaranteed failure! As it wore with use, it would slip, reducing speed! Its easy to repair, just insert a new one or until it arrives, use a piece of aquarium air pump tubing, but you have to be comfortable opening the unit, like we all do on eevblog, "take it apart".If you send those older Dremels in for service, they willgive you free of chargeadd the new motor assembly, about $20, which does away with the coupling, or you can have a supply of couplings, $2@.IIRC, all Dremel rotary tools use the same proven old motor design, what's been unfortunate is cost cutting in some parts harmed their reputation, and so did using the dreaded coupler.The Dremel 4000 seems like a good unit, but only time will tell. But I think the simpler 275 aka 100 is a better deal for reliability and expected performance of a Dremel rotary tool.Quote from: DaveXRT on July 13, 2012, 06:21:25 pm

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 02:35:11 am
content: Went to home depot to try out the Milwaukee unit I mentioned previously in the thread. Very disappointing, with nothing in the collet it has that sick resonating sound at all speeds. It may be gear noise but it even feels bad in the hand. The spindle can be flexed laterally at least .020" in the housing with mild pressure. I could not find a position where the "ergonomic shape" at the nose could be held pencil style. I am sure the motor and electronics will hold up in typical Milwaukee style but I think this is a total FAIL!

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 06:36:05 am
content: Well, since the question included the word _quality_, my vote has to go to Kress. (please copy the link into your browser; Kress has stupidly included characters in the URL that this forum misinterprets:http://www.kress-elektrik.com/Power-tools.71+M561855e446b.0.html?&tx_commerce_pi1=17 )While i am not familiar with all the brands mentioned, those that i do recognize and own, do not come anywhere near Kress quality. The models i linked are quite popular in CNC circles as spindles for mini mills for wood and aluminium, as well as PCB work - drilling, isolation routing, v-grooving etc etc. High quality collets are available for all popular shaft diameters making a Kress a good allround tool. If only it could do 60 000 rpm as well...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 06:58:37 am
content: 60,000You might as well use a mini jet engine

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 10:11:15 am
content: Some model makers use dentist drills as they are lighter and give greater accuracy,they tend to be a bit pricey and you have to be able to stand the noise as well.One of these is the best compromise very light runs cool (too cool they freeze up) are these units, they are also very cheap.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-Micro-Air-Die-Grinder-Kit-56-000RPM-Pencil-1-4-NPT-Water-Oil-Separator-/280805025684?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item416148a7

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 12:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on July 14, 2012, 06:36:05 amwe have a kress drill here at home the thing is more then 20 years old and the only problem of this the bearing and the shaft is resonating a bit, you cant make nice holes with this anymore, but apart from this its running fine with original brushes. it wasnt treated gently during its life.as for the dremels these are intented for hobby/modelling work right? how can it contain any plastic parts for the internals? at those speeds just waiting to an accident...for the 4k series dremel tools anyone used 1 of it, does it different from the others or just a "new" look and a stronger motor?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 01:47:44 pm
content: Wow. I've never heard of this tool, but its schematic and the support provided by the linked website suggests this is the best one so far listed, based on specs listed below. Now that's a rotary tool with all the features I've idealized:handheld field usableThe power and reliability of old style brushed universal motors, direct driveself resetting electronics protecting it from overheating and overloading while providing variable controlisolation of the electronics for protection against dust and dirthigher precisionAlas, a quick google shows one reason we don't hear much of it here is its primarily an EU/UK product.Pricewise for USA, it competes with the Foredom, which has a similar reputation for reliability, albeit its nottransportable given its mounting style and size.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kress-1050-FME-Milling-Grinding-Spindle-CNC-Router-10-year-warranty-/310393277059#vi-contentQuote from: Kremmen on July 14, 2012, 06:36:05 am

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 02:53:21 pm
content: I've added Kress to the poll list.With age bearings and motor to wear, its vital to have spares as wear is expected, but they have to be far cheaper than buying a new tool.I've dissected and owned Dremels for some time, and the plastic casing is fairly durable, but its not a precision device. The bearing mounts will wear with use, so it maybe good for limited precision work when new, but not as it ages, but it won't wear to the point its useless as a general purpose handheld grinder/drill.FWIW, Dremel plastic housings in the 100, 200, 300 series have proven durability simply because its unchanged from a design of 20 years ago [called multipro, a rehashed 1980s mototool], using the same material. The original cases were metal back in the 1940s.The newer tools, 4000 & 3000, still have to prove themselves, but the material looks to be of similar composite as the 100 series.The 3000 is just a rehoused 300.The 4000 is a "new" and in my eyes still unproven but the reviews on Amazon are very good, 3+ or less star review account for less than 5% of total responders, compared to 25% with Proxxon.The electronics now include feedback control to maintain rotational speed, but how well it works under load has not been tested well, reviews suggest it works but rapidly overheats when overloaded. The overload protection is just a fuse, it blows, the unit dies, unlike the Kress design which allows feedback to the motor to reduce output until the overload is resolved. The Dremel electronics are not sealed, and also exposed to the inside housing, thus it can get fouled and shorted by metal debris. It is also larger, I cannot hold it like a pen as the Dremel 100 series, so theysellan accessory so you can grip it betterI think the 4000 addresses complaints of users that fled to the Black and Decker RTX series tool. Basically, its used as an electric handheld die grinder. But unlike pneumatic die grinders, air keeps the unit cool and pushes out dirt, whereas the electric grinders suck in air, and thus suck in dust caused by grinding; it causes a lot of premature unit failures if its not protected from dust.I personally do not use such tools for home repair routinely. It mainly in my bench to cut PCBs, casings, etc., in support of electronics. The small 100 series works better and is a tested design, and can do double duty for occasional home repairs.Quote from: M. András on July 14, 2012, 12:39:05 pm

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 03:03:36 pm
content: Thanks for checking, I was about to do this later this week. The Amazon reviews rate it 4 stars, but bring up the issues you raised too, mainly noise, then more vibration under load, and battery life. It sounds like some motors are not well balanced, and bearing mounts have too much free play.Those problems plague all rotary tools but you can get some from the cheapos like Harbor Freight that are well done. I think it shows quality control for low cost tools cannot be slackened, because such a small difference in bearing mount clearances, straightness of shafts or accessories, collets etc., can make a big difference at difference speeds. Rotor balancing is another, if its not done correctly as found in quality tools, it won't do at all even for cheap tools.Quote from: robrenz on July 14, 2012, 02:35:11 am

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 03:48:03 pm
content: my old no brand name tool just packed in .so just bought a dremel 300 ..it's ok but i do find it a little heavy 480g .

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 04:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on July 14, 2012, 02:53:21 pmI don't think the Kress items are in the "dremel style" range. I think they fit into the rotozip, mini router or die grinder category. I think of dremel style as something you can hold pencil style reasonably well. I think latest versions shown in your history photo are departing from that comfortable pencil style like the 398 I have and is shown in that list. Just my 2 cents.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2012, 05:06:25 pm
content: like a pencil .mine weighs half a kilo

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2012, 12:14:54 pm
content: You are right, robrenz, but it also has options for a flexible shaft, making it more like the Foredom, which clearly one cannot work with without the shaft. A price for heavy duty use and higher precision cuts is greater bulk it seems, but at least the Kress can be hand carried, all 3-4 lbs of it!I found this dissection of the Proxxon Micromot and a Dremel clone used as mill. Not many side by side discussions on the net.http://reprap.org/wiki/Milling_and_Drilling_Head#Inspiration_for_Own_DesignsQuote from: robrenz on July 14, 2012, 04:54:38 pm

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2012, 01:21:05 pm
content: Over the years, I've seen several flexible shaft accessories added to dremel-like tools, even the motor shaft of a Pace soldering/desoldering rework station. None even came close to the suppleness of a real, jewelry grade flexible shaft. Most of the add-ons are very stiff or fight with you at every move. There's no comparison either to a real handchuck. These tools are in a class by themselves, but like mentioned above, they aren't multipurpose tools. Back in the 80's, Dremel sold a flex shaft attachment as part of a desktop workstation that was a round carousel that held the bits with a pivot mount to hold the motor in the center and a collet style handpiece. It was near impossible to work with with mounted on the round tray or hung because of the rigid shaft. Maybe the current ones are much better. Nothing like a smooth foot lever to control the speed either.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2012, 06:55:19 pm
content: I have often considered using a brushless inrunner helicopter motor and its corresponding controller to do a awesome high power mini die grinder/ bore grinder using an ER8 collet milling extension as the spindle shaft. I would use a preloaded ball sleeve bearing at the nose to keep the diameter small and a preloaded angular contact pair at the back to control the axial motion. My real job is designing and building high precision spindles. Material costs would be about $300.00 so not a real practical thing but it might still happen.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 12:49:05 am
content: rob, have a look at this, I have a earlier version made out of ceramic bearing spindle and it has amazing precision.http://www.ebay.ca/itm/All-New-1-8-12V-TB-650-Package-Deal-CNC-Router-Spindle-/170877195518?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c91314fe#ht_2047wt_1396It works very well with R/C brushless motor. It actually heats up after while even when it's doing nothing due to the bearings, it's ceramic so heat don't really expand it so it stays precise.I have this model

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2012, 01:19:40 am
content: Very nice video. He's not making much money on that spindle setup if any.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 04:14:34 pm
content: Some images of the PROXXON FBS 240/E (superb machine):

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 05:33:02 pm
content: The Proxxon FBS240/E uses a triac and then the waveform (AC) is rectified with a diode bridge (DC).So it is much more eficiciente than one AC motor with the same power, and is less noisy.I've had two dremel, both burned, his AC motor only makes noise... And its design and construction compared to PROXXON is garbage.I can't understand why Dremel and Proxxon have a matching percent in this poll.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 06:00:10 pm
content: I have no interest in a brand war but If you compare a higher end Dremel models that cost as much as the Proxon you will see why. The #398 industrial Dremel I have and mentioned in this thread is much heavier duty in design and construction than the Proxon.

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 06:21:30 pm
content: I would recommendForedom flexshaft.I have used these for plastic model building, jewelry and electronics.The key factor about a Foredom tool is that you can purchase the hand piece, the motor type, the collet system and the foot or hand speed control; a la carte or in a complete kit.Above that, you can have a system that works at extreme slow speeds with high torque and high speeds with fine precision.The only down side is that it is a fixed location device. You need to mount is on a hanger or retractable cable, whatever. It is not very portable.Yes, you can use a drill press attachment as well.Now, I do own and have always owned a Dremel, I like that tool too, but not if I need precision control. Ok, that's my opinion.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 06:52:32 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on December 29, 2013, 06:00:10 pmA war of brands, no please. Just look online to see the public perceptions. I will not say anything more.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 07:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: Kryoclasm on December 29, 2013, 06:21:30 pm+1 on all those points. Many operations are performed much better well below the typical 5000 rpm minimum of the dremel style units.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 07:48:27 pm
content: Quote from: Kryoclasm on December 29, 2013, 06:21:30 pm+1FWIW, Dremel actually makes an equivalent model (9100 Fortiflex). Not cheap either (~$250 through 3rd party seller on Amazon), but is a little less expensive than Foredom. No idea how it stacks up though.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2023, 04:20:52 pm
content: ... have recently got a Foredom SR series pendant motor with 39-inch key drive flex-shaft and H.20 and H.30 handpiecesneed a trip to IKEA to find something to hang it onnothing much found on YouTube regarding its use for electronics applications - though someone has adapted a China copy to run off a cordless Makita router

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2023, 05:07:56 pm
content: some further Foredom options:- drill press and motor bench stand+quite a good (dentist's) overview on rotary tools:

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 08:38:15 pm
content: example video of an electronics bench with rotary tool - plenty of noise - not so jarring with the Foredom

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 08:51:19 pm
content: I use a very cheap £25 rotary drill kit, mains powered - it's never given me any trouble and always been "perfectly adequate".

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 06:47:16 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 05, 2023, 08:51:19 pmMy hunch (and the poll supports this) is that the majority of electronics people will agree with you - I expect hobbyists may be more inclined to think about buying CNC milling or Laser cutting platforms (than expensive handheld tools).

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 02:28:41 pm
content: I have a few different rotary tools, including two Dremels (one mains powered and one Li-Ion powered) with a flex shaft attachment.I also have a small, cheap ($10)Harbor Freight rotary toolthat I've used for delicate 3D print finishing work, because it's small and light (unlike the Dremels). Very little torque but for that use it doesn't need much.My most recent acquisition was one ofthese small rechargeable rotary toolsmainly for electronics work (like grinding solder mask away in repairing tracks/pads). Again, for more delicate work that doesn't require much power. I'll break out the big Dremels when I need to really do some damage.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 09:41:41 pm
content: I have an older Dremel at work with a manual speed control, it does the job.I had a dremel a newer digital control Dremel at home, one day it just stopped working. Had a fiddle and couldn't fix it which was really quite annoying as it was quite expensive, hadn't been used a lot, but was well out of warranty.I bought an Ozito (cheap brand at Bunnings in Australia) to replace it and can't faulty it.

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2023, 04:33:19 am
content: Quote from: saturation on July 06, 2012, 12:05:53 pmI have two Dremels, plus several Dremel and no-name accessory kits. All bought many years ago.Recently I needed to made a prototype housing out of stainless steel (specifically), and needed to grind apertures to fit other mechanical parts.The no-name grinding bits did nothing. The Dremel bits did the job, although with a lot of wear.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2023, 02:37:45 pm
content: Stupid poll!I have an extensive home shop with stuff you don't even imagine. I have had good and bad luck with over half your list - both with the SAME brands.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 07:52:59 am
content: In my experience Dremel is low quality for high price. Some of their accessories are unusable flimsy plastic (e.g. the drill stand). Any no name will work at least the same if not better, and for only a fraction of the cost.As about which brand is better, most consecrated ones (not Dremel) usually have two product lines: one for hobby use, the other for professional use.The hobby ones are loaded with gimmicks, not very productive, and designed for the cheap. Usually made to last from tens of minutes to a couple of hours top (at an intense use). No replacement parts, no international service, no extended guarantee, and again: hobby tools are not meant for intensive use.The professional ones are exactly the opposite: designed to be reliable and productive, to do one thing and do it well. The professional tools cost about 10 times or more than the hobby ones, so unless you drill holes all day long for your entire life, it only makes sense to rent a professional tool for occasional work, never to buy.I have a Dremel that was about $200 and a no-name high speed rotary of $30. Dremel came with almost no accessories, only had a few bits. The no name one came with hundreds of bits.In practice I'm using (and abusing) the no name tool, while the Dremel is sitting on a shelf gathering dust.