Public transport, how the hell do people do it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 09:50:43 am
content: Another rant... (I seem to be very angry just recently)I've given up my company car and used public transport to commute for the first time in years (I've used buses, trains, tube and tram before but not for some time)It was bloody awful.Not Tube awful but even that has a sort of charm of its own that sort of gives users a mark of respectThe price was ridiculous, a few tens of pennies lower than the cost of *buying* and running a car per day.The length of time to get to my destination about four times longer than the journey in the car complete.There's a mile walk to get to the station, then a mile walk from the station at the other end unless I pay two thirds of the tram fare again on buses to get to and from the stations.It's no wonder people want cars and the government can't get people out of them.There's a BMW in my near future, I will not be using public transport to commute for a day longer than is avoidable.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 10:06:02 am
content: Motorcycles, pushbikes, or go half costs with a neighbor who drives to same destinationAnything is a better deal than butt rubbing with the rabble,trapped in a half-assed transport system based on profit not service

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 10:33:12 am
content: Well I've just spent ten minutes doing the sums and a 3 series BMW will cost me a whole £1 a day (based on fuel consumption of 35MPG, they should average around 50MPG) more to buy and run than it will cost to use public transport so stuff it, there's a salesman who's getting some commission this weekend.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 10:37:50 am
content: Depending on how long your runs are between your walks or your station changes, you can end up with free time where you would otherwise be putting along in a car where all your attention is required. similar for the start and end walk, you can navigate a surprising amount of obstacles while staring at a phone.Back when i was a 1st year apprentice, the train generally turned out to be quite a good option, the trade school had very poor parking, but there was a train station only 1.6km away from it, so even though the walk was quite long, i was garenteed i would end up on time if i left at a certain time, even in my later years when i changed to driving i would generally still end up parking near the station and walking.The biggest thing i miss from those days is, because i was walking 3-4km per day, i was much more fit,Now as 8/10 days i'm off to a different site in the middle of nowhere, the car is the only real option, but it was nice in how much free time i had, not having to sit there focusing on the road for the 45 minute drive home, vs the 35 minute train ride + 20 minute walk.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 10:39:08 am
content: I am incredibly aware of how public transport is.I'm 15, and where I live, we have the CDTA bus system. It's my only personal means of transport besides walking, or being driven by my parents. The college I go to gives me an unlimited bus pass while school is in session, which is great, I get free bus rides most of the time.A ride on almost all the buses is 1.50 USD ~1.13 GBP and for the 905 express bus (which I take on occasion) it costs 2 USD (1.51 GBP) There are also several passes that make it a bit cheaper, like an all day pass, a 3 day pass, a 10 ride, and two different month cards, one that is unlimited for most buses (besides the NX motor coaches) every day of the week for a month, and one that only works on weekdays for a month.Let's take an example trip on my bus system. From Schenectady (where I live) to Troy, I need to take a bus (won't tell which) to downtown Schenectady, and then the 370 to get to downtown troy, if I don't want to do a lot of walking. This takes 90 minutes one way (3 hours both ways). I can cut this time in half by doing about 20ish minutes of walking through a park straight to a 370 stop, but that's still a lot of walking.The most insane example is getting from Schenectady to the Crossgates Mall, which is one of the larger malls in the area. Just starting on the State St./Central Ave corridor, the quickest route is incredibly hard to time. I would have to take a 355 at the right time to New Karner station, and hope to catch a 155 bus, which doesn't run on weekends. If I want to go on a weekend, I have to time it even better and go to Colonie Center (the mall that is right next to Crossgates), but even this is stupidly hard to time. Now if I want to do it at any time without a need to go through planning, I need to take a 905 (or a 355 plus a 1) to downtown Albany, which is as far away from Crossgates as Schenectady is. Then I have to catch a 10 or a 12 (doesn't matter) and go to Crossgates that way. This trip, one way, can take around 2.5 hours. This is one way, and is the only way to get there without waiting for buses for probably as long.Yet, I love the system. It's my only way to get places, and before I started using it, I didn't have a way to just get up one day, say I fancied something from the Crossgates mall, get up, ride the bus, and get off. I even find a geeky enjoyment. I'm one of those annoying people who stands up front and talks to the bus driver (those in Germany may be cringing right now, but it's a lot more normal where I live). There are interesting people to talk to, and it's almost a social experience. I also have fun identifying the exact buses, decoding their ID numbers, and even adding information to the Wikipedia page for the service.If I had a car, and I could drive, I would throw whatever bus anything I was doing before away, and drive. Where I live, it's debatable as to if a bus is cheaper than a car. In the short term it definitely is, and there are many ways to save money. Some supermarkets even provide those unlimited bus passes for their employees, and for someone who doesn't have a car, it goes everywhere. I hope you manage to get a car soon, and pick something better than a BMW (just kidding). Hope this was of some help.P.S. a good point was made about having to walk. It's exercise, get it in while you can.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 10:51:03 am
content: Yeah, the walking will be good for me, I used to (as can be seen from the AVI) run assault course races like Tough Mudder but an injury (broken rib, two broken toes and a damaged achilles on my last one) put me out of the game and my fitness has deteriorated badly so the exercise will be welcome.I don't mind the tram/bus as such but it's holiday season here and the trams were still ridiculously busy, I know they get much worse.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 10:57:52 am
content: Even me as a student I drive a car. And I don't drive to work or college daily.I make long journeys once a month to family. Public transport would take twice as long (5 hours). Need to leave before 7PM if I want to finish it without sleeping at a train station. Then also need to call family to pick me up. I need to hop onto 4-5 different busses and trains. Haul all my bags to the bus stop and between stations. Wait at stations until my legs get sore(which they get fast). Wait in the rain, snow, hail, wind. Have people yelling, coughing or generally be dicks. Have to deal with shit public toilets (if even available). Not being able to stop whenever I want, like get a coffee.Opposed to a car. I drop my bags in the back, fill the car up, sit down for just over 2 hours and I'm at my front door.Public transport is just as expensive for my transport needs (short trips in city etc.). If I travel to family more often, the car becomes cheaper.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:10:24 am
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 10:51:03 amOh yeah, you guys have options. We have buses. No trains, trams, subways, light rail, any of that. We have Amtrak, but a trip from Schenectady to Albany costs I think around 20 bucks, so I might as well walk for that price.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:11:13 am
content: Also, on the car side, get a cheaper car with the comfort and features your after, e.g. i bought a 7 year old Toyota corolla for my day to day car. If you spend any kind of time on the road you pick up pretty quickly that the more expensive the car, the slower and more cautiously its driven.Cars older than 5 years will have non OEM spares available, and a non luxury brand will be much cheaper to service.If you want it for a social status, then go for it, but i prefer being able to go rough on it on the odd occasion without having to do the math in my head on how many grand the next service will cost. or how much resale value i am shaving off.No better feeling than accelerating past a Maserati or Ferrari after stopping at the lights because they are babying them so much :p

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:13:08 am
content: For work I need to carry around a truck load of tools, ladders, cable and other equipment to various and distant locations so anything other than my trusty Toyota is out of the question, anyway you couldn't pay me enough to get on public transport and the same applies for sitting in stagnant traffic for hours on end, fortunately I'm able to nominate which direction I am heading for the day and at what time as I simply cannot handle being trapped in traffic any more yet there was a time when it never used to bother me, those days are now long gone along with my patience.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:13:17 am
content: I spend around 2.5 hrs a day on public transport.... gives me time to write nonsense on EEVBlog and read the odd book. There is no reasonably priced parking where I work and the London congestion charge etc.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:13:30 am
content: Many car antagonists dont realize or dont accept, that time and comfort has a value too. Furthermore, time has value and price at once.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:19:56 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on August 02, 2017, 11:11:13 amHah, yeah, no, you've never seen me drive. New car or not (I could tell you a story about how I learned to drift in a BMW but I won't, at least not in public).until recently I drove ~35,000 miles a year.Plus, it's an odd quirk, but the BMWs, Mercedes and Audis I've had in the past have all been cheaper to have serviced at a main dealer than the Peugeots, Renaults and assorted other non-luxury cars we gave to engineers.Plus, I *like * BMW and the residual value makes them cheaper to buy than the lower screen price cars.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:32:58 am
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 09:50:43 amYou haven't given us a lot of detail there. How long is your commute overall, and on what type of roads? The stated 4x ratio between car and public transport commute time makes me guess that it is not that far. Have you considered cycling the whole distance (or using an e-assisted bike, if the distance is on the long side)? How about using a foldable scooter for the way to and from the stations, or a cheap old bicycle stationed at either end?It feels a bit like you ran your public transport experiment mainly to prove to yourself that buying a car is justified. Which is perfectly fine, of course. But there are more ways to make this no-car commute thing work for you than you might have considered.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:34:49 am
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 11:19:56 amI found Volvo the same. I just had my car serviced and a new set of tyres. The Volvo dealer could actually beat the prices of all the major tyre centres, plus I get a free loan car for the duration.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:49:41 am
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 10:33:12 amIn New Zealand (both Wellington and Auckland) the buses and trains cost more than owning and operating a reasonable car (certainly cheap one bought new or better one bought moderately used). And that's with only one person in the car.The savings or using a car evaporate if you have to pay for parking.Motorcycles aren't any cheaper to run than a modern small car (tyres are the main expense, not fuel), but can usually be parked for free even in CBDs.In Moscow where I am now, it's completely different.The Metro (underground/tube/subway) is much faster than driving once you get to a station (most fairly central places are no more than 10 minutes walk from one), and furthermore the times are absolutely predictable, so you can very reliably arrange to meet someone at a particular station and know to within a couple of minutes when you need you enter the station near you in order to get there at the proper time. Yandex Metro does a good job of estimating these times, including any changes between lines. It's also virtually free, at currently 35 rubles (US$0.58, EUR 0.49, AUD$0.73, GBP 0.44) for a trip of any length, when using a "Troika" rechargable card. You can add on unlimited busses or trams to that within a 90 minute period for an extra 19 rubles (54 total). This happens automatically.When the metro/bus/tram is not convenient, I use Uber (GETT and Yandex Taxi are very comparable). The cost is 9 rubles per km plus 9 rubles per minute. I seldom spend more than 300 rubles (US$4.95) for a taxi ride, and I don't think I've ever spent more than 500 rubles (US$8.25) unless I'm going to/from one of the airports, which are all about 30 - 40 km from the center as the crow flies and take about an hour to drive to. Airports have a fixed 1100 rubles (US$18) fare to/from anywhere near the center, but you can instead spend 420 rubles for an express train from various stations about 3 km from the Kremlin (all of which then have metro & bus service).I don't actually end up using taxi all that often, but even if I used them twice every day it would still be cheaper than owning and operating a car -- let along parking it. For a once or twice a week shopping expedition is an absolute no brainer.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:51:20 am
content: The cost and usability of UK public transport depends hugely on where you live and work. It never approaches the standards of places like Hong Kong, but if you live in a suburb of London and work in the middle of London it can be reasonable. If you live in a suburb of London, and work in another suburb, requiring a circular journey around London, public transport is a nightmare. Public transport in London, and I believe the other large UK cities, is radially focused.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:55:21 am
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 09:50:43 amI gave up commuting to work almost entirely.My lab and office are close to my home for that reason. I can walk, ride a bike, or a couple of minutes in the car.Could have got a place three times the size for less cost if I was willing to drive 15 minutes, but bugger that.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:02:02 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on August 02, 2017, 11:11:13 amMy 530D has been the most reliable, lowest maintenance car I've ever owned. One service every 18,000 miles or so.Sod the whole 'social status' thing, it's quiet, refined, and handles way better than a car of its size has any right to.400 lb.ft of torque comes in handy sometimes too.: it's probably also worth mentioning the comment I had from the tester at its last MOT - apparently it was "too clean" for the diesel emissions tester to give an accurate result, so they couldn't run the test. And it regularly does over 40mpg; newer ones are even more efficient.

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:06:10 pm
content: The buses here (Toronto) are very good, it takes me ~40 minutes to get to work in the morning. A car would do it in ~20. In my previous place (Israel) it was impossible to use the public transport. A 1 hour commute by car would be a 3 hours ordeal using the public transport. So even with very high taxes on cars and gas, congestion fees and hellish traffic, most people have to use cars there.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 02, 2017, 11:55:21 amI'm with you.Here in Moscow I got an apartment in a building 100 meters from work. I spend more time in the elevators in each building than I do walking between them. It's only 77 m^2 2 br/1.5 bath but it's modern, comfortable, has both A/C and plenty of windows that open (on both north and south sides of the building). Cost 65000 rub/month (US$1070, NZ$1440, AU$1342). That's NZ$332 or AU$310 per week.So, so convenient to be able to put on a load of washing when I leave for work and hang it up at lunch time. Eat lunch at work or home as I feel like on the day (depending for example on where the gf is there). Pop home for a quick mid-afternoon nap or similar with no one being the wiser ;-) :-)

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:15:29 pm
content: The biggest problem for PT is that people tend to move at the same time but from and to different directions, if it were the opposite more different times and all in the same direction than public transport would be easy and cost-effective.Still there is sometimes coming an end to people owning cars (most families here now own two cars and we already have a parking problem in our street to get rid of the tin cans) and as can be seen in different parts of the world the car traffic jams will also put an end to it.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:19:54 pm
content: So the solution would be to relocate my residence closer to workplace, or workplace closer to residence. I did it, same as Dave. My residence closer to workplace.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:27:37 pm
content: At the moment I commute regularly to a customer within Zone 1 in central London, door to door it's 35 minutes including a five minute walk either end.I get a seat all the way 99.5%+ of the time, plus I'm lucky enough to have a couple of options on different lines, so if one line is broken I usually have a reasonable alternative, but it might add 10 mins on to the journey.Nowadays we have live updates of tube operations, so you can pretty reliably plan rather than standing on a platform waiting unnecessarily and unproductively.At a push, it's just about possible to use WiFi at stations, although sometimes it doesn't work reliably when you're on the train, like the time I ended up with the same pizza delivery three times ;-)Some of the lines (Circle, Hammersmith & City, District, Metropolitan) are now air conditioned which during the summer months is a huge benefit.After a few days taking the same route, you can figure when the best times are to commute, and where to stand on the platform to ensure you get a seat.The biggest irritation are the irregular travellers who randomly stop in front of you and get in the way, particularly on stairs/escalators, but also at ticket barriers.I used to drive to the same customer a few years ago, but driving in Central London has become increasingly difficult. There's almost nowhere to park, and any parking there is is horrendously expensive. By the time you've found a spot, the walk is often quite a walk away anyway. Traffic is horrendous despite the congestion charge, and it's definitely worse than, say, ten years ago (I drive a plug in hybrid that's exempt from the charge).One of the benefits of taking public transport compared to driving is that you can spend quality time reading datasheets etc!Once you get into a routine it's not half as bad as you think it's going to be, but it might take a few goes to optimise the trip for your convenience and comfort.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:43:52 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 02, 2017, 11:32:58 amNo, I didn't give a lot of detail I suppose.The commute by car is ~6 miles each way, currently 20 minutes (holiday season, roads are quiet) or 30 in traffic (usual), the roads are 'A' Roads which are the best non motorway/dual carriageway roads.To get from home to office I have to use at least two trams or buses, I can mix and match which would remove most of the on foot element but it'd cost more and I'd lose the health benefits so while I have no car I will take that.This morning I left home at 7:20 and arrived at the office at 8:50, the trams weren't as busy as I have seen them, I did miss my stop but that only added ~5 minutes.I've considered a bicycle to the station and once my fitness improves I will cycle to work if the weather is good as there's secure storage at work.There's nowhere secure to leave a bicycle at the stations where it won't be vandalised, stolen or removed by the authorities.Outside of the working week it's going to be difficult as well, my partner lives ~50 miles away and public transport presents similar issues but at a much higher price, the return journey would be ~2 hours each way and cost ~£40, then there's transport to consider there as well.I live in walking distance of all the local facilities I need so it's not necessary to use a car to go shopping for instance.

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:51:17 pm
content: I try to cycle from Zone 3 to Zone 1 as much as I can - I'd say it 90% of the time. It is only 6 miles to work and it takes on average 45 min, 35 if it is middle of the night and I cycle harder.On days like today (raining) I take the tube, but it takes a bus or a bit of walking first and then 3 tube lines (tube network in south London is not that dense) and in total 50-55 min. It costs money too, hence I prefer to cycle.It would be madness to drive through central London, I bet it would take similar amount of time as cycling if not more and the costs of maintenance, parkings, taxes, insurance would be huge.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 12:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 12:43:52 pmNo excuse, buy an electrical bike

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 01:02:12 pm
content: Quote from: lukier on August 02, 2017, 12:51:17 pmI've done the driving through central London, many times up to last year, I didn't find it to be as bad as everyone says, but you do need to be able to hold your own against the cabs/ubers, they seem to feel they have some sort of divine right to drive however they want (usually badly and with no regard for anyone else or traffic laws).I'm up in the footballer belt of South Manchester and have free parking at the office and home, there's no congestion charging either at the moment.Definitely an option to cycle when my fitness improves as there are cycle lanes I can use but I'm an old man now, I like my creature comforts, a comfy seat is a welcome luxury.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 01:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 02, 2017, 12:56:21 pmHaha, it's an option but I'd rather use the one I already have, no fitness benefit from an electric bike and, knowing myself, I'd forget to charge it.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 01:17:26 pm
content: Quote from: lukier on August 02, 2017, 12:51:17 pmI have cycled in regularly in the past, and I really ought to start again. Like you I am a fair weather cyclist, I would regularly check the Met Office every morning and if it was going to rain or was particularly windy then I'd take the tube or drive (assuming I could be reasonably sure of having somewhere to park).One thing that is thankfully fairly ubiquitous these days in modern offices is shower facilities, and often there's somewhere to park the bike, those facets are almost a prerequisite IMHO for a cycle commute.Cycling is without doubt the fastest way from door to door for me, although perhaps not if you factor in the time for a shower too, but at least you get your fitness ration in for free.On the negative side, I did find that in recent years there has been an apparent increase in the angry cyclist brigade, often seriously lycra'd up, who are on a mission to get to work in a split second quicker record time. They weren't too happy about sharing the road with a slightly more sedate tootler such as myself who actually dares to stop at red traffic lights.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 01:30:45 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 01:02:12 pmI lived in Cheadle Hulme for eight years, and worked in Sale/Altrincham/Wilmslow/Knutsford. My commute was almost always a drive, occasionally a bicycle. When I moved to London 25+ years ago, the traffic wasn't as bad as it is now, but the key here is that if you're crossing London in particular, you have to factor in about an hour irrespective, you just never know what's going to happen. I find cycling or public transport is in contrast _usually_ far more consistent and reliable than driving in central London.My main bone of contention about driving is that I found myself becoming really quite grumpy: after you've been cut up half a dozen times on your five mile commute you do have a bit of a sense of humour failure, it's not a good way to start the day.I don't have much of a problem about black cabs as a rule, I can pretty much guess what their intentions are, it's the Ubers and Addison Lee drivers in particular who apparently have no concern for anyone else, dawdling along lost with a queue of frustrated drivers behind them.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 01:39:36 pm
content: IMHO public transport is not up to the challenges of the 21 century.I have a toyota prius, drive 50 km per day on a terrible road. If I would go with the bus, it would be 3-4 hours per day, I know, I've tried it. The prius costs me 2.5 EUR/day, or about 500-600 EUR/year of fuel. Insurance and tax is more, you know, because "screw car owners", thats why. But taking a bus would cost more. And it is delayed all the time, and 2-3 days every year it does not come at all, because they are on strike.When was the last time, you hear in the news: 'Public transportation tickets cost reduced because it is not competitive.'Biking is really not an option above 5 km commute. It ruins clothes, the weather is there, at winter its just too cold. Hopefully 10-20 year from now, we can just call a a self-driving electric über, and get rid of the busses altogether.And trains: When it is cheaper and faster to fly somewhere, you are doing it wrong.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 01:47:45 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 01:03:44 pmStick to public transport then, because in 2040 (Petrol/Diesel car engine ban comes into force in the UK) and later, your car will forever be run down, as you keep on forgetting to charge it up, overnight.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 02:00:35 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 02, 2017, 01:39:36 pmIf a route only supports one A320/B737 an hour then the cost of rail infrastructure is totally uneconomic.If you're dispatching a 747 every ten minutes then a high speed train starts to become a goer.

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 02:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 02, 2017, 01:17:26 pmI've noticed that and it made me wonder. Not so much in the colder months, but now and mostly around the peak hours - a lot of really pro cyclists in lycra with these super lightweight expensive racing bikes, click-on pedals and so on. It is not like in Amsterdam and other European cities where people just commute on whatever has two wheelsI believe it is called MAMIL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MamilI'm more of a "Fred" myself (http://bikeparts.wikia.com/wiki/Fred_(bicycling)) with my heavy city bike with a pannier rack and mudguards and more leisurely pace.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 02:43:31 pm
content: Quote from: lukier on August 02, 2017, 02:28:15 pmI remember, vividly, on a drive from Richmond, a lycra clad cyclist on a very expensive looking bike hurling verbal abuse, hand gestures and generally being incredibly unpleasant to car drivers who he seemed to think weren't being respectful enough to him, I've been the victim of a cyclist who was aggressive and attempted to be intimidating towards me because I wouldn't get out of his way on a footpath in London, apparently he had to cycle on the footpath because there was a van coming the right way down a one way street that he was trying to ride on in the wrong direction.There are a great many cyclists who respect laws and other road users but sometimes it seems there are a great many more who don't, I suspect purely because they are extremely vocal in defence of their tenuous reasons for acting like idiots.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 02, 2017, 02:00:35 pmThis argument seems reasonable. However, in the UK it seems to the less heavily used train lines which have the more reasonable ticket prices. The busy routes out of London have the worst prices.Both train and plane ticket prices are generally fairly random. You can be sitting next to someone who's ticket price differs from yours by a factor or 3, and with special offers even more. If your plane journey is a single hop, your ticket is generally rather more expensive than if you chose an airline that has to take you by multiple hops, yet who had the higher costs?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:25:02 pm
content: Quote from: lukier on August 02, 2017, 02:28:15 pmThat must make me a OGILS (Old Geezer In Lycra Shorts). When I was younger I just used to cycle in jeans but as the years wear on I find that I need the padding between me and a 'racing' saddle that a decent pair of cycling shorts provides. I ride an old Raleigh Tourer that's older than most of the forum members.I use to cycle alotin London (over a hundred miles a week) but rarely nowadays - the roads have got much busier and all the road users (including cyclists and pedestrians) have got less attentive, less law abiding and less courteous.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 10:33:12 amDon't forget that insurance and depreciation costs areat leastequal to fuel costs. And I'd be very surprised if you would get even 35mpg in the rush hourSometimes commuting by public transport can be pleasant, if you can either fall asleep or do something more productive than turning a wheel and pressing pedals. But that very much depends on the journey.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 02:43:31 pmIndeed.However, the same is true for drivers,especiallyBMW drivers(New BMW => "I'm a successful salesman so I'm more important than you". Old BMW => "a wannabe" ditto). Naturally there are honourable exceptions.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:55:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 02, 2017, 03:42:02 pmIsn't Audi the new BMW?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 03:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 02, 2017, 02:00:35 pmThat is about 10.000 passenger per day in one direction. Not a lot of routes has that many.I regularly fly between Brussels and Budapest. 1400 km. My plane ticket is usually between 30-100 EUR in one direction, 14 EUR being the lowest. The 373-800 uses 2.4 L/100km/seat for these distances, so it is about 33L of fuel. Fuel gives about 1/3 of the costs in the ticket.I'm actually looking for future, and small airplanes. I remember, recently they are making airplanes with 20-30% improvement in the same size. But with reduced size, improved aero, reduced weight, and reduced speed, they can probably make the costs even less. Planes like double-bubble D8 has 50% improvement over the 737. And Europe has airports almost every 100km. If planes start flying there, it will be a new revolution for the transport industry. Plane tickets at 1/5 of current cost, and having an airport at every big town.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 04:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 02, 2017, 03:37:59 pmFiguring the BMW will be roughly similar MPG to the Octavia (the 'official' figures are very similar but we all know what they're worth) I've just given up I would expect an average of ~50 for the type of driving I do, but I worked it on 35 and counted insurance into it.I also worked it out taking depreciation consideration, it actually gets a little bit better because a four year old BMW 320D SE with 40K miles on it (assuming the government doesn't do something punitive to diesel owners) would probably be worth >£9000 because it has lowest depreciation in class (which is why they're a simple choice for company cars where you want to make the staff feel special, they were actually cheaper to lease than a Peugeot 406 but don't tell the sales staff that or they get the hump, ask me how I know)I like a nice train journey, but this one isn't.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 04:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 02, 2017, 03:56:52 pmThat's 118 mpg per seat for us Brits.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 04:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 04:11:18 pmThat is, I believe, currently on the cards. I'd think twice, or at least wait and see what happens, before buying a new diesel vehicle.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 04:25:22 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 04:11:18 pmDon't forget that in towns "mpg" is little more than a fiction. The dominant factors are the weight of the car and the number of times you accelerate from 0->30mph. A rule of thumb is that 0->30 takes as much fuel as 0.8km at a constant 30mph. The simple physics is energy =1/2mv2for each acceleration from 0, and at a constant speed energy is proportional to v2. FFI,http://withouthotair.com/cA/page_254.shtmlQuoteI had one of those: 3 trains, 2 hours. It was faster to push bike cross country - but the A322 was a horrible road for cycling! I stuck it for 3 months, then left that company.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 04:27:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 02, 2017, 04:21:56 pmOn the up side, it looks like many diesel cars are available at big discounts in the UK right now.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 05:17:31 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 12:43:52 pmYes, it would probably be faster too.If the weather is bad, then how about a velomobile?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 05:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 02, 2017, 05:17:31 pmThat's a funny shape and colour for a Sinclair C5.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 06:37:37 pm
content: Interesting thread. I've got a shitty old '06 diesel and drive in and out of the city a couple of times a week because public transport is horrible. I'm going to keep this until it either dies (DPF is about to clog) or the government stop me from driving in and buy something else. I pay the congestion charge and get reamed for a space in an NCP car park. The big problem for me is that trains and buses are disease factories and unreliable so while I saved a load of money I was constantly sick, spent way more time travelling as the train ends nowhere convenient for me and ended up working on the damn train anyway so they got more hours out of me for no pounds.I did cycle in until about a decade ago when someone wiped me out just outside Waterloo. Wrecked me and a 2 month old Dawes Ultra Galaxy... Decided the only way to beat a metal death machine is with another metal death machine. Plus when it rained it was horrible and I got a sore arse.

author: orin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 07:06:31 pm
content: Quote from: lukier on August 02, 2017, 12:51:17 pmIn the early to mid 80s when I worked in London, it was 25 minutes by bicycle from Hackney Downs to Great Portland St, 35 minutes by public transport (bus, bus/tube, rail/tube - many ways to do it but none particularly faster - bus was cheapest) and 45 minutes by car and good luck parking!I'd mostly bike. The trick was not to look out of the window before getting dressed... or if it was raining I'd change my mind and ride the bus.Now, here in the US (Woodinville WA to Bellevue WA), my commute is about 13 miles by bicycle and takes about 50 minutes. It's not often that it gets that long by car - usually half that if I time it right and pay a $0.75 toll. I try to bike at least a couple of times a week when the weather cooperates. Fortunately, I can do a lot of the bike commute off roads on paved and/or dirt trails.As for clothing, I like mountain bike style baggy shorts for commuting. They have the lining/padding like the lycra shorts, but don't have the look. FWIW, the jersey that gets most respect is a Wallace & Gromit jersey that I ordered from England!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 10:00:43 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 02, 2017, 05:32:16 pmIt's got no battery to charge, is lighter and probably faster than an old C5.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 10:05:46 pm
content: Probably also actually works unlike most Sinclair products.I got my arse stuck in the C5 that was at the music and video exchange at Notting Hill Gate once much the amusement of the staff in there. I have no idea how anyone would want to get in something like that.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 01:19:03 am
content: A popular hobby in Perth Western Oz is to rail at the "terrible public transport".I spent much of the last 15 or so of my working years using public transport, &, with the proviso that you are heading South to North, or East to West (or obviously,vice versa), it is quite good.When I was working in Tuart Hill, it took me about 20 minutes longer to get there, if all the train /bus connections worked out OK, (they often did) & I could read whilst travelling on nice, modern buses & trains.(In my earlier travels, the trains were older diesels, but the period I'm referring to is after electrification of the train service).You miss the daily traffic jams & associated stress.Of course, if you need to travel from one suburb to another around the periphery of the city, that is a different story----you usually are better off going into the city then out again---or drive!

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 01:39:25 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 02, 2017, 05:17:31 pmHuh. Ace and Gary's car is real!NWSNWS

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 02:45:15 am
content: I no longer work downtown, but shoot me now if I had to drive it every day. When I did commute downtown, the (elevated) train got there in 25 minutes, in what would take 40 minutes of frustrating driving. Trains every 90 seconds...

author: antonylex
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 03:35:24 am
content: Same here. I prefer sitting on the train reading my book much more than driving.

author: orin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 04:27:36 am
content: Quote from: boffin on August 03, 2017, 02:45:15 amThat would be a no-brainer.In London when I was there, property values went up the closer you were to a tube station (I couldn't afford to be near a tube station.). Here, in the Seattle Eastside area, it seems that the locals fight against rail (or come to that, any alternate transportation) in any form or fashion. I really don't understand it. All they achieve is to make their own commute by car worse.

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 06:26:32 am
content: Quote from: orin on August 03, 2017, 04:27:36 amThis is true, not many people know that:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs%E2%80%93Thomson_paradox

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 09:00:52 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 02, 2017, 01:47:45 pmThat's not true. They are banning the sale of all new cars with petrol and diesel engines. Not banning them outright.

author: ^_^
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 09:37:57 am
content: Quote from: antonylex on August 03, 2017, 03:35:24 am+1 !Though audiobooks can make driving a similar experience as well.If one has to go by car, I'd recommend listening to audiobooks.Then you kind of make what would be a wasted time... not-wasted

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 09:59:13 am
content: When cars become autonomous and the marketshare increases over a threshold then you will see an huge increase in insurance premies for the manually driven cars, so huge that it will soon be financially impossible to drive a car yourself on a public road.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 10:49:39 am
content: Quote from: mc172 on August 03, 2017, 09:00:52 amNot to mention that 2040 is four to seven elections away for most countries, making any political announcement now pure environmentalist theatre.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 10:51:42 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 03, 2017, 09:59:13 amWishful thinking.If and when autonomous vehicles are safer than manual driving by a careful driver, they will make the roads safer for *everyone*. Including the remaining manual drivers.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 10:53:14 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 03, 2017, 10:49:39 am2040 also allows enough time for technological change to make today's decisions obsolete.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 10:56:07 am
content: I have a BMW:BusMetroWalk

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 11:09:55 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 03, 2017, 10:51:42 amThat will be the case for the first generation, I am talking about 2035-2045 when third gen aut. cars are on the roads, so we have some time to go.At least that is the information I got from a spokesperson from a government agency last year here during the european autonomous cars demonstration where universities of 12 european countries did demonstrations with the interaction of their cars.As an example, the autonomous cars did pass eachother at crossings with distances as small as 10cm from eachoter, it was essential that the human in the car in no way could interfere otherwise the other cars would have been unable to anticipate. That is why the human element in cars will be banned alltogether in the future and the seating positions will look more like in a bus and train than they are now in a car. The unpredictable human is and always will be the biggest cause for traffic accidents and this will no longer be tolerated by insurance companies. Our grandchildren will only be driving cars on a racecircuit

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 11:32:52 am
content: So there will be no pleasure at all to be gained from driving.Wonderful, another pleasant way to spend a day ruined in the name of safety.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 11:41:26 am
content: Quote from: CJay on August 03, 2017, 11:32:52 amA day ruined you say? How about lifes ruined?There will be no more kids runover by drunk drivers, no complete families wiped away by a sleeping truck driver or ghost driver who missed a sign, no other innocent people runover by someone checking his facebook page while driving etc. etc.There will be more good things: you can read the newspaper or work, traffic jams can be controlled and kept to a minimum, cars can be shared by multiple people if their need is not overlapping (the car can drive itself back after dropping you off and pick up the other person and not sit in the parkinglot of your work useless the entire day etc. etc.Think further than just missing out on something you can still do as a hobby on the circuit and there are many many positive effects from this, and to get back on topic it will beat public transport

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 11:45:37 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 03, 2017, 11:41:26 amThere ya go, just what you needhttps://www.kitepackaging.co.uk/scp/bubble-wrap/small-bubble-wrap/?sfpartno=BSE1X1000X100&sfunits=y&gclid=CjwKCAjwk4vMBRAgEiwA4ftLszekqq8wQpIfV4Mtp2v5Vd1okE2nqxnmq6rR0SEZm6426HwVsO5E-xoCDA0QAvD_BwE

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 11:49:42 am
content: If a time comes that autonomous cars are operating as virtual trains, with vastly higher speeds and shorter following distances than today then I will happily give up driving on public roads.I'll still have this (sorry, so old it was shot by my passenger on a brand new iPhone 3gs):

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 12:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 03, 2017, 11:41:26 amNewspaper in 2040? What's that?There will be new opportunities for crime too. Terrorists could modify the software in driverless cars to cause huge accidents and steal vehicles.Quote from: Kjelt on August 03, 2017, 11:09:55 amWhen there's an accident who will be liable? The car owner? Manufacturer? Software developer? I can see it being difficult to prove who's at fault.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 12:57:47 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 03, 2017, 12:47:05 pmPersonally I think it will be easier since all logged sensor data from all involved cars will be available including videofootage from all 7 onboard cameras for each car.It is like with an airplane accident not only having all the black boxes recovered intact with sensor and voice data but also having multiple angles of videofootage from the accident available.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 01:27:07 pm
content: Quote from: mc172 on August 03, 2017, 09:00:52 amEDIT: N.B. All the following ONLY applies to the UK (but other countries, may do the same).I did not word it very well. It was aimed specifically at the OP, rather than being fully general purpose.Because the OP seems to be saying (i.e. BMW car salesman reference) he buys brand new cars (I may have misunderstood what he said), the "joke" was meant for the OP. So for people who always buy brand new cars, in 2040 the Petrol/Diesel engine ban comes into force in the UK.You are quite right, it only applies to brand new cars, from that date. But give it, 5 or 10 years, from then and it begins to get very difficult to get a Petrol or Diesel car, which is not beginning to fall to pieces, by then.tl;drIf you always buy brand new cars, the ban comes into force when, after 2040, you next buy a new car.If you buy/use only used cars, the ban comes into force after 2040, plus how many years old, your car is when you buy them used.So after 2050, for most people, when they next change their cars, it won't be a petrol or diesel. But as others have said in this thread, 2040 is a long way into the future. Things could easily change, by then.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 01:45:59 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 03, 2017, 12:57:47 pmStill, I don't see how that would solve the problem.If it's my car and it kills someone do I have pay? If it was me driving, then fair enough but if it was the software, then I surely can't be held responsible because I didn't write it.What if it wasn't the software but poor vehicle maintenance? Obviously the owner would be to blame then but it would need to be proven.Software can also be hacked too.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 01:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 02, 2017, 10:33:12 amWhere can you buy a BMW for 50p a day?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 02:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 03, 2017, 01:46:34 pmIf there is writing on the box, it can easily be 50p a day.Example:

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 02:29:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 03, 2017, 01:45:59 pmThe laws of the country shall have to be rewritten updated for these new situations, let the lawyers handle thisQuoteSure but software integrity is not so difficult to secure.The experts fear the most for the wireless communication protocol between the cars, communcating their speed, direction etc to eachother so they can anticipate their next move.If there is a jammer or hack to that protocol it could get nasty.The carmanufacturers have to upgrade their security anyway since CAN was never secure and the number of cars that get stolen are rediculous so I am curious how this will evolve.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 03:09:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 03, 2017, 01:46:34 pmHelp me out? I fail to see how you get that it was only 50p a day?

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 03:35:22 pm
content: QuoteSpain is the third country in Europe where more car thefts are producedhttp://www.bez.es/253727458/Espana-tercer-pais-Europa-donde-mas-robos-coches-producen.htmlThe 10 most stolen cars in Spain in 2016 (data provided by Detector):1 – BMW X5 (17%)2 – Toyota Land Cruise (12%)3 – Range Rover (11%)4 – BMW X6 (3%)5 – BMW Serie 4 (2%)6 – Land Rover Discovery (2%)7 – Audi Q7 (2%)8 – Jaguar XJ (1%)9 – BMW Serie 5 (1%)10 – Audi A4 (1%)http://motor.atresmedia.com/novedades/noticias/10-coches-mas-robados-en-espana-2016/

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 04:32:40 pm
content: Quote from: lukier on August 02, 2017, 12:51:17 pmYou are lucky guy for living on a City fairly plane(for riding bikes). My town has the 40% of the streets with slopes , my street has 3 slopes on total 800 meters. You would finish with the steel legs or without feeling the legs .

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 05:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 03, 2017, 01:19:03 amAnd like you said the key are the connections between transports. When i went to University , i had to get two buses:For going to home -uni aproximatly 45 minutes , for returning 1h:30 minutes .The trouble with the returning, that the buses were desynchronized,if the uni-bus arrived a few later, i lost the bus-home and i had to wait 30 minutes on the better case.Until, i tired the situation and i decided to save the uni-bus for the returning. I began to walk until the bus-home (3 km on 15-20 minutes on a town full the slopes).I reduced on half the time for returning to home(45-50 minutes). There are considered that the travel uni.home on car is approximatly 5-8 minutes. On resume, the publlic transport is A SHIT.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 05:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 03, 2017, 03:09:17 pmAs well as the costs on top of Petrol for running cars (I assume the £1/day was just for the Petrol bit of the cost), there are many extra costs.But in fairness, there can be some potential extra costs, for travelling by public transport as well. Which may not have been needed, if travelling, mostly by car.E.g. Extra clothing costs (it can be rather cold/wet outside in the UK, if not traveling inside a sealed car, all the time), overpriced public transport food/snacks (e.g. on trains), expensive taxis + tips for when the public transport doesn't work out as planned.Expensive phones, expensive MP3 players (when they were popular), expensive laptop just for on train use.Expensive bags. Expensive phone plans, because you are on public transport so often.Expensive season tickets, that then get wasted because of illness or change of where you work.Less (or even no) overtime opportunities at work, because public transport, enforces certain (train etc) time tables. Which can be less flexible than cars, which are time-table free. Hence less potential take home pay.Etc etc.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 07:13:00 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 03, 2017, 05:32:57 pmIf you go back and read the original post he was saying that owning and running a car would cost £1/daymorethan the costs of using public transport.[Fx: Wanders off muttering to himself: "I don't know, the standard of literacy in the youth of today...Now, what did I come in here for?Where is here?Why am I in my pyjamas?"]

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 07:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 03, 2017, 07:13:00 pmBut that would be assuming I didn't get the information, from other posts, such as this one:Quote from: Fungus on August 03, 2017, 01:46:34 pmBut you are right, I DID misread the statement about the £1 per day. I was not really participating in the thread at that point in time. Just having a very quick glance (speed read) of some of it.Some people use different methods for calculating the costs, anyway. So if they get paid an hourly rate, and public transport adds, 2 hours to their away from home time.They calculate its cost as 2 x hourly rate per day. Which can come to a substantial amount.While others will see it as a time to read a nice book, or perform other useful activities, while on the train.Others still, would dislike it, and be happy to pay money (i.e. for a car), to avoid travelling that way.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 07:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 03, 2017, 07:13:00 pmWithout a breakdown is very hard to understand, besides this is a private case, maybe for an other person this afirmation isn't true.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 07:56:22 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 03, 2017, 03:09:17 pm50p for petrol, 50p for the car.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 09:26:14 pm
content: I commute every day from Leeds to Halifax for work via car.It takes me 30 minutes in the morning, 45 minutes in the afternoon, average speed of around 25-30 mph in both instances (routes are usually different due to traffic). The fuel cost one way is about £1.50. Morning route is pretty much free flowing and motorway 60+ mph, evening route there's some queuing traffic but none too bad, no more than about 10 minutes in traffic.Public transport would take around 2 hours each way (bus + train + bus + 20 minute walk), and cost me £3.50 in ticket cost, or I could buy an annual ticket for the pleasure of about £1,300 of my funds a year.My car only cost <£1,000, annual maintenance costs of £200 a year approx (service + MOT + tyres every 3 years), insurance is £750.Why would I use public transport?? It would cost me twice as much and take three times as long. I'd have to share with other smelly or antisocial people and listen to their crap when I could just enjoy Spotify in my private car. And I'd still need a car for shopping, hackspace, other trips anyway so I'd still be paying for that.

author: ivaylo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 06:20:05 am
content: Depends where you live. I personally always rent in walking distance from some sort of public transport. Which in the US is difficult and expensive. The alternative of mindlessly sitting in traffic is worse though.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 07:04:51 am
content: An earlier poster mentioned the cost of parking often tips the balance.The bus costs me about NZ$100 per month and the trip takes about 30 to 45 minutes door to desk. Car parking within walking distance of the office costs NZ$170 to 250 per month. A no brainer.More proof that YMMV...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 08:26:12 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 03, 2017, 02:29:20 pmBut we all knows that never ends well. I can see all sorts of stupid things happening, such as making any modifications to one's own vehicle illegal.QuoteMe too. I think it would be better without relying on any communication or access to the Internet. The software should also be stored on write protected media.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 10:20:27 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 03, 2017, 07:56:22 pmNope, not what I said at all.