DPScope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 09:41:56 pm
content: Hi lads (and gals, if any).I've been looking around for an USB scope, not only for the obvious reasons to save money, but to save on space as well as my"workbench"is located in my living room and I need something that can be easily stored in a drawer. I would really love to get the Rigol 1054Z, but I don't have space for it and it's a little above my capacity.I've already read all the comments about the great value of a real scope above the USB ones and I do understand a USB scope can't really replace a proper scope, but so far I'm using an Arduino Uno with a custom sketch and a stupid software I wrote for Processing (https://gist.github.com/rlogiacco/7699213) to get some form of scope reading. Either that or other similar stuff based on the basic and quite unreliable Atmega 10 bit ADC.Compared to that I believe most USB oscilloscopes will be a huge improvement.Now, I wish obviously to get the best I can afford on that front and I'm here to ask your opinion about the DPScopeII (http://www.pdamusician.com/dpscope/features_ii.html) which seems to be really promising.Thanks in advance to anybody who will spend some time in reading the specs and having a look at the open source schematics: any consideration is welcome, bare in mind though I might be unable to fully understand your advices O0

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 09:53:01 pm
content: And just to add some more meat on the roast, I've been evaluating the SmartScope from LabNationhttps://www.lab-nation.com/specsand the BitScope Micro (https://www.lab-nation.com/specs) but they really seem overpriced. Compared to the Rigol 1054Z price for value they just look like robbing the poors... 2/3 of the price and you don't provide probes or anything?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 10:20:10 pm
content: Well I am not sure about the second one yet, but the first you pointed too is basically a toy maybe good enough for audio work.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 10:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: rlogiacco on January 20, 2015, 09:41:56 pmNot sure what you want to do with it but I agree with Lightages, the first one is a toy, and the other ones have awful specs.And really, is a scope like the old Rigol DS1052E or Siglent SDS1072CML/CNL so difficult to store? I mean they are reallz dirt cheap, and essentially represent the bottom line where it goes from toy to tool. And both scopes are really dirt cheap.USB scopes don't save any money, in fact they are regularly much more expensive than comparable desktop scopes (or if they're cheap then they're usually shit).Any of the USB scopes you listed sound like flushing money down the drain. Better save for something which isn't crap.

author: Guni
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 11:43:15 pm
content: HANTEK 6022BE can be something for you - IMHO cheapest scope on the market - 65.99$ on ebay with free shipping, you can store it in a drawer and, most important - you can do something with this.

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 02:24:06 pm
content: Back here to move this further:Hantek 6022BE 60$: adviced as 20MHz, but with 24MS/s per channel it's more like a 6MHz; this seems very cheap, but I've heard many bad things about the software, especially trying to make it run on Win7 64bits, and it's supportDPScope II 90$: cheap, but to be considered a toyBitScope Micro 110$: adviced as a 20MHz, but with 20MS/s I would consider it more a 5MHz which makes this quite expensiveVDS1022I 130$: usb isolated, advertised as 25MHZ which sounds acceptable for it's 100MS/s specDSO203 130$: advertised as 24MHz, with a 72MS/s (upgraded firmware) I believe it should be consider a 18MHz; nice because it is really portable and the two additional digital channels make it a decent logic analyzer, but the screen size is very limitedBy looking at the specs the best one seems to be the Owon, but I'm strugglying to find a review, especially to understand what is the drawback of having only 5k storage....The next following one is the DSO203, which has the real portability as a nice to have...Once again, I'm not taking into considerationreal oscilloscopesbecause of their size, and yes, storing a DS1052 or a DS1054Z is a problem for me, that's why I'm willing to compromise.So the questions are:does anybody have tried the Owon and provide their feedback or point me to a decent review?do you believe my above consideration are faulty and, in case, in which terms?Once again, please consider I am an hobbyist and, even if I were buying a proper oscilloscope, I wouldn't consider anything above 50MHz or 300$.Thanks a million for your help.

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 02:32:25 pm
content: I'd go for theAnalog Discovery. Seems like a decent device and not that expensive, especially if you could get an academic discount.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 02:54:10 pm
content: It depends on which way you are inclined - to save money OR to save space. As has been said decent USB scopes cost more than a rigol, but if you are sure you want a PC scope then look at the PicoScopes. Pretty expensive, but they are very good for a USB oscilloscope.

author: Stupid Beard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 03:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: rlogiacco on March 08, 2015, 02:24:06 pmThe DS1054Z is surprisingly small. You don't realise how small it is from videos on the internet until you have one in your hands. You could probably fit it in a shoe box with room to spare. Judging by the extremely scientific method of looking at a DS1054Z and a shoebox and making a wild guess, both of which are currently located on my desk right in front of me so it's not all that wild really.Obviously only you know how much space you actually have, but be really sure before you decide.

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 05:40:44 pm
content: Quote from: Tainer on March 08, 2015, 02:32:25 pmI live in Italy, no discount for us, of no sort...Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Tapatalk

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 05:56:15 pm
content: Quote from: JackP on March 08, 2015, 02:54:10 pmThe good thing seems they actually don't lie on their scope performance! Their 10MHz model has 100MS/s, a sampling frequency equivalent to the OWON I mentioned... And a similar price.BTW: is a 100MS/s a 10MHz or a 25MHz? I use to divide by 4, but both Dave and PicoScope use a factor of 10....I'll check the delivery price, thanks for the suggestion!Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Tapatalk

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 06:03:04 pm
content: No problem, hope it works out for you. In regard to the performance, the sampling doesn't dictate the bandwidth. You could have a 100MHz scope with 100MS/s, but you wouldn't see anything useful. Modern scopes have the anti aliasing feature, which is basically just a low pass filter, cutting off frequencies higher than half (?) the sampling rate to prevent this. I'm no expert so maybe someone else can weigh in here, but I don't think I'm talking complete BS!

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 06:04:59 pm
content: Quote from: Stupid Beard on March 08, 2015, 03:15:23 pmI would love to get a DS1054Z, trust me. I know it's great value for money and I know if I try it I will never consider anything else: Dave made me drooling with his review.Space is my first consideration, my second one being I'm just an hobbyist, meaning it would probably be underused in my hands, staying in a drawer for months just to get out of it for a few minutes.On the other hand I believe I need one to check a couple of projects I have and my local FabLab doesn't have one: I would buy a DS1054Z and rent it to them :-)Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Tapatalk

author: Stupid Beard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 07:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: rlogiacco on March 08, 2015, 06:04:59 pmI'm a hobbyist also. That doesn't really mean much. The laws of physics don't change just because you're a hobbyist, so you still need the right tools for what you are interested in doing.I was in your position not long ago and I had the same concerns as you do. The scope was a pretty large purchase for me and was not one I made lightly.I went without a scope for 10 ish years and made do with just a multimeter, because it was just an on again off again hobby and I couldn't justify the price. And it's true, I don't use it every day. But it's a tool like any other; it's there when I need it and it will last me a long time. And when I do need it, it saves me a lot of time, swearing and hair loss.I will only feel like it was wasted money if I stop doing electronics. I am pretty sure that I would not be feeling the same way if I'd bought a USB scope regardless of how much it cost.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 07:54:34 pm
content: Something I would say is that a rigol can cost much less than an equivalent PicoScope. Also, don't underestimate the UI of the scope; a bench top scope is much easier to use than the best USB scope (although the PicoScope is one of the best in this respect).

author: coflynn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 07:55:00 pm
content: I'm pretty partial to the PicoScope line - I've got a few and they've been great. One nice thing is the same software application is used for there $160 scope as their $8000 scope. Compared to the random USB scopes you find off e-bay, the software is much much better. There is also a Python library I worked on, so if you want to do some automated testing it's fairly easy (seehttps://github.com/colinoflynn/pico-python)Seehttps://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2200/picoscope-2200-specificationsfor specs. I had somenotes/review of the 2204A here.They are a UK company, so might be easier for you to order one in Italy as well.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 08:47:23 pm
content: Agreed. They are great. I am lucky enough to live about 5 mins from their base in St. Neots, and found them by searching for a job (part-time, for a 14 year old). I contacted them to see if I would be able to buy one direct from them, and they were kind enough to send me a discontinued model (2208A) for a very good price! It is a 200MHz model, and it is great for those higher bandwidth tasks. I have to say though, for day-to-day tasks I still use the massive 20MHz CRO on my bedroom desk; I just find it so much more intuitive, and I don't have to keep my laptop open (which consumes the rest of the desk).I highly recommend the manufacturer, just consider your needs. From what you have said I think a PC scope will suit you, because of your infrequent use, though.

author: coflynn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 09:29:57 pm
content: QuoteThis is really the major consideration... if you want a USB scope or not. Personally I prefer USB-connected instruments generally, as can streamline my setup (have monitors at rear of desk, workspace in front). I also do a fair amount of work that requires exporting data for further processing, and PC-based is naturally much easier/faster for this.It sounds like the OP might be leaning towards USB anyway.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 09:45:40 pm
content: You are completely right, and I'd like to try exporting data from my CRO! I prefer the feel of a real front panel, but I realised half way through writing that post what the OP wanted. I have no need for data processing at present, so that isn't a problem, although it is amazing how small a scope can be without a screen or front panel.

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 11:08:36 pm
content: I really appreciate all your comments lads... Went looking for the PicoScope in details and it seems impressive, especially on the software side... Yes, it's a little pricey, especially compared to DS1054Z which has 4 inputs.... But it is definitely a lot smaller and easily storable for me....While I keep drooling in front of the DS1054Z, would you consider going for the Picoscope 2204 10MHz (cheapest) version a silly choice?In the meanwhile I'm scavenging my drawers with a shoebox at hand to check if I manage to get enough space to store the Rigol in an hand-reach place: if I can't I'll have to definitely pass on it.@Stupid Beard I reallyhateyou, you made me rethink about the entire thing again from scratch!

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 11:20:56 pm
content: It depends on your needs: My 20MHz CRO does most of what I need, just messing about and learning, as well as some repair work. 10MHz is on the low side these days, but It'll be a perfectly fine choice in terms of the scope itself. I know the price rises steeply with added bandwidth, so I can understand your choice. Reviewing this post, I realised I didn't really answer your question, so I will say talk to us about what you want to do, and we can help you out with regard to bandwidth. A general rule is to buy as much bandwidth as you can afford, but this doesn't always work with hobbyist work.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 11:23:57 pm
content: Quote from: rlogiacco on March 10, 2015, 11:08:36 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 11:30:28 pm
content: Stealing a shoe box from a cat is animal crueltyI'd pick the Rigol DS1000Z series over a Picoscope every time. I have used the Picoscope and didn't like it. The input range on the Picoscope I used was also very small. Most scopes will survive a couple of hundred Volts with a 1:1 probe connected. The Picoscope I used only allowed 5V max.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 12:49:26 am
content: Quote from: JackP on March 08, 2015, 06:03:04 pmTo underline your first sentence, I've used very expensive 1GHz bandwidth scopes with only 40MS/s. And yes, you could see sub-nanosecond risetimes in detail with a 40MS/s scope.Seehttp://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1986-04.pdfandhttps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EB5LkMEQ24gC&pg=PA52for remarkably full details.

author: coflynn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 01:06:11 am
content: QuoteYeah, the 2204A is only 100V overvoltage protection. If we are talking low-price scopes, and you might want to do any sort of power stuff (with great care!), it makes a lot more sense to go stand-alone. As the lower-cost of the PicoScope might be overshadowed by the cost of replacing your laptop + picoscope.QuoteThe DS1054Z is a pretty amazing value - note beyond the obvious spec differences, you are also going to 12000Kpt memory over the 8Kpt the lowest-cost picoscope has. The picoscope gives you complete serial decoding from the start however, which is an option on the DS1054Z (perhaps unlockable anyway).But the 10MHz/100MS/s isn't bad for a first scope. It also has the AWG (limited to 100Khz), but you can do stuff like build filters, active amplifiers, etc, and characterize them by sweeping the AWG while recording the frequency response. So there is a *lot* of potential for learning about circuit design with the PicoScope option.Thinking about how you want to use it might help give you ideas about which way to go.

author: Stupid Beard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 01:51:30 am
content: Quote from: rlogiacco on March 10, 2015, 11:08:36 pmHahahahah! That's awesome.Sorry@HowardlongNice one

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 02:00:01 am
content: Quote from: rlogiacco on March 08, 2015, 02:24:06 pmThe 6022BE captures 48ms/s for each channel, not 24ms/s per channel. However, at that speed it captures just over 1000 datapoints each channel whereas at slower speed it would capture a lot more datapoints. You can see more info about datapoints and capture speed here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-6022be-20mhz-usb-dso/61/The software is not bad but certainly not great. There is also an improved version developed by member "RichardK" of this forum. Richard's version is a great piece of work. The links for different releases of the improved version are in the same thread above.It is not a scope to grow with, but a scope with limitation you live with. Great value for the money if you can live with the limitations.

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 07:38:00 pm
content: Ok, let's talk about my usage context, so you can give me a proper advice.I've started with electronics a year ago, with an idea for an industrial automation project: temperature monitoring and heaters and water pumps driving, all controlled from a web interface. As a software architect I knew I could easily do the web based software interface, but I needed a mean to gather data and actuate... so I went for the obvious choice for any starter these days: Arduino.I now have a decent knowledge about AVR and ARM, enough to design and program from scratch my 8x8x8 LED cube with WiFi/BT interface.The only analog project I did so far was a smartphone to quad copter interface through the audio jack: generate a two channels sound on the phone and then analyze it to determine per channel frequency and amplitude to translate into instructions for the rotors. I went for very low frequencies, ranging between 100Hz and 300Hz.I'm now building a laser cut with a couple of friends at my local fablab.In all those digital projects you might easily understand how much I could have improved the result having an o-scope at hand, like avoiding to burn out a few mosfets before realizing the rise/fall time of the gate was too slow, or the frequency of the clock pulse was irregular and stuff like that...At this stage I imagine a 10MHz scope could be sufficient, but my assumption might easily be wrong.To Rick Law, I'm not considering the Hantek an option because the software is a big part of an o-scope, which becomes greater on an USB o-scope and I believe that buying one with a crappy software would mean flushing money into the toilet. Hantek might have made a decent, very cheap, low level o-scope speaking about the hardware, but they failed all their customers with their total absence of support and no improvements on the software.I'm not going to support such attitude, even if that might cost me double the money: better give RichardK my money than Hantek. Honestly, I can't understand why people still buy their product, to me they just should go busted. And I believe RichardK should get no less than 20$ for each one who uses his software, plus another 20$ from Hantek as a compensation for their lack of software engineering capabilities.Thanks anyway for the suggestion and the correction, but with 2,5 times the money I'm going to get 5 times bandwidth and 8 times memory, plus a good software.To the DS1054Z supporters, so far I haven't managed to arrange my stuff in a compatible manner, but I'm giving myself a little more time, which means the Rigol is not out of play, yet.What bothers me about the PicoScope is its lack of USB isolation: my 1k+€ desktop will be at risk considering my usual dumbness ... And the serial decoding capabilities with only two channels are, to say the least, very limited: I2C, OneWire and UART to my knowledge

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 08:50:54 pm
content: Hey Howardlong, that's cheating: it's an MSO1074Z not a DS1054Z

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2015, 09:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: rlogiacco on March 11, 2015, 07:38:00 pmI was not suggesting you should. I was merely correcting your reply with a factual error on 6022's sample rate. You said 24 mega sample per channel which is incorrect.As I said, 6022 is not a scope to grow with; instead, it is a scope with limitation one must live with. I think for those who can deal with the limitations, it is great value for the money.Good deal or not, it is not for me to judge whether you can live with a limitation or not.

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2015, 12:46:19 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on March 11, 2015, 09:05:12 pmApologies if my rant came across as being direct towards you, it Wasn't... considering the way I feel right now I believe I can live with the hardware limits, but I'm not willing to live with the software's ones....If it had a decent software it could have been my first choice with that price....

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2015, 03:42:24 am
content: Quote from: rlogiacco on March 12, 2015, 12:46:19 amNaaah, no apologies necessary. I didn't take that personal at all. You were polite but merely disagree. Nothing wrong with that.I too think the software isn't that great, but I do not think it is as bad as some said. I look at that kind of product as like a kit. It takes you there part of the way, and if you can bridge the gap, well, you can save some money.Rick

author: rlogiacco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2015, 09:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: coflynn on March 11, 2015, 01:06:11 amHave you had a chance to look at my usage context? I'm looking forward for your advice...Quote from: Stupid Beard on March 11, 2015, 01:51:30 amAfter long time spent on rearranging my 4 drawers I believe I managed to make a niche big enough to host a DS1054Zwhich means I now have to find another reason not to go all the way up and spend 350€ for my hobby

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2015, 09:23:48 pm
content: You know you're going to do it....

author: coflynn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2015, 01:18:50 am
content: Hello,I had no good advice so kept quiet ;-) Typical usage like that doesn't really push me either way, personally I'd be happy with either USB connected or desktop. Something else to consider is if you want portability... if taking to a makerspace for example the USB-version might be a bonus.The 10 MHz BW limit would probably be sufficient for what you are looking at doing.QuoteYeah - USB isolation isn't cheap, and if they use high-speed mode (which I assume they do) difficult.QuoteLess than a Euro a day!