Why is this area not in with the rest of the computer related topics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:59:31 am
content: Seems odd that it wasn't moved as part of the recent changes.

author: GromBeestje
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 08:00:02 am
content: A microcontroller isn't exactly a (Personal) Computer. Even when you can program both in C.Looking at microcontrollers, you usually program them bare metal (without operating system), while PCs these days hardly ever run bare metal code.When discussing microcontrollers, it concerns a lot more low level stuff. Poking around in hardware registers, and interfacing with external peripheralsover busses like I²C, SPI or even bit-banging custom protocols. It's a whole different world then the world of Personal Computers and therefore deserves its own area.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 11:20:33 am
content: Quote from: GromBeestje on June 14, 2019, 08:00:02 amI wonder about that, surveys consistently show that the majority of embedded projects use an OS of some sort,https://m.eet.com/media/1246048/2017-embedded-market-study.pdfby 70% vs 30%.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 11:44:27 am
content: Microcontrollers or microcomputers as they were originally referred to, are certainly a computer on a chip. It seems odd there is a whole section dedicated to embedded software/hardware but this area remains apart from it all together. Spreading out the website just clutters the front page and this one sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 12:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 14, 2019, 11:44:27 am"Microcomputer" was a term used to describe small, self contained computers (i.e. desktop systems) back in the day when a typical full sized computer took up an entire room, and what became known afterwards as a PC (personal computer). It's not the same thing as a microcontroller.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 12:40:53 pm
content: Microcontrollers are generally a part of a larger system, whereas personal computers are discrete systems. Technically they're very alike, but contextually they're quite different. It's electronics versus IT. It seems that's what has led to this choice.It's a bit like putting dolphins next to elephants and giraffes instead of in the sea section. Biologically not wrong, but contextually the sea section makes more sense.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 01:13:00 pm
content: If you really fail to see the (massive) difference, then this section clearly isn't for you.QuoteNo. No. Just no.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 01:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on June 14, 2019, 12:07:37 pmA few exampleshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/whats-the-smallest-computer-you-could-make/msg2451381/#msg2451381https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/self-programming-the-mc68701-and-the-mc68701u4-(motorola)/msg2434620/#msg2434620Quote from: Siwastaja on June 14, 2019, 01:13:00 pmSee the above links.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:05:04 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 14, 2019, 01:47:48 pmEarly computing and hardware was more similar to today's microcontrollers and more integrated with the electronics field back then, but the fields have diverged massively the past 30+ years. Even compared to the processors of yesteryear modern microcontrollers tend to be much more integrated.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 14, 2019, 11:20:33 amThe key there is "embedded" and it´s definition - or change over the years. Or better said: popularity of what is understood by it. Microcontrollers are a subset of embedded computing by definition, but as soon as the distinction becomes important enough to call it a computer, you require a different skillset to work with it.By definition it just means that the application contains an embedded computer, not the standalone computer as such runs an application. It doesn´t tell you anything about the computer nor its complexity.Bash scripting a RasPi is also "embedded computing", but that won´t help you with programmers, interconnecting logic families, booting or electrical issues.When processing performance and interconnectivity becomes an issue you usually end up in the ecosystem of OSes or go bare metal FPGA.This is what makes the differences, but anyway, the toolchains are very different, the topics are distinct.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 02:34:12 pm
content: Motorola was not the only one using the term microcomputer to describe what we today call microcontrollers. Here is a preliminary datasheet from November 1982. Its not the point I was wanting to make but a little history never hurts.My point is only that a thread for microcontrollers really should fall into the computing category. Having an embedded computing category that covers both hardware and software or what I would call firmware, seems redundant.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 12:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 14, 2019, 02:34:12 pmI think the point people have been trying to make is that that isn't considered a CPU by modern standards and haven't been for a while. It wouldn't even be considered a decent microcontroller nowadays, as those have much more of what were external components back then on board. Obviously people will need to use the different threads appropriately, otherwise they'll still become duplicates and redundant. I can imagine that being an issue without or even with a lot of enforcement.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 03:23:02 pm
content: A microcontroller is a programmable electronics component. An embedded system is a complete system; what most people term acomputernowadays.Currently, the most distinct difference between microcontrollers and single-chip systems (SOCs) is the amount of RAM available. If measured in kilobytes (say, less than a megabyte), you have a microcontroller; if measured in megabytes, you have a SOC. This distinction is not a definition, but is commonly accepted as it has evolved naturally,from the actual use cases. Development, especially programming, on the two, requires completely different approaches. You can write microcontroller software that can be used in various different ways, but because of available resources (especially RAM) and cost, each microcontroller is usually programmed and chosen for a single purpose. Embedded systems are designed for more complicated tasks, trading ease of development and maintenance for increased resource use and cost.You can argue that you can build an embedded system around a microcontroller. That is true, in the same sense that both gasoline and diesel engines are internal combustion engines. But, if you ask for internal combustion fuel for your car, the salesperson will be confused, and/or you might ruin your engine.The reason why microcontrollers and embedded systems should be separate, is because of their completely different approaches. Kerosene, diesel, gasoline, and ethanol are all internal combustion fuels, but their properties are such that they are treated differently. For example, nobody bothers adding foul-tasting additives to kerosene to stop humans from drinking it. On a microcontroller, the software you write is the only thing (other than the libraries you also use) running on it; it is a single thing within its entire universe. In an embedded system, there are multiple applications (or services or daemons or programs) sharing the resources, coordinated by the kernel. Microcontroller software (I like to call thosefirmware) is straightforward, and in complete control of its hardware resources;applicationsmust negotiate resource use with the kernel.Personally, I find thatallthreads currently in the Embedded Computing forum are actually about microcontrollers, and have nothing to do with embedded systems.If I were to discuss embedded systems in these forums, stuff I'd discuss in that would be e.g. about the power draw characteristics of various embedded systems; stuff like adding bulk capacitors to the 5V power line on Odroid HC1 SBCs; how to safely attach a serial debugging cable between an SBC and a computer without frying anything with ground loops; how to write properly asynchronous I/O in Python in Linux SBCs; and so on.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 03:32:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 15, 2019, 12:47:48 pmI did say it was a history lesson on the use of the term microcomputer. I don't think I suggested that the 6801, 6811 or 8051 are a modern microcontrollers. Although the 8051 still seems to beQuoteThe area marked Computing doesn't suggest it is for high level computing, IT, or beginners. Some of the sub-threads do. Looking through this thread, there appears to be a lot of cross over.From the responses, it seems the group wants to set themselves apart from the IT and beginners by saying it's closer related to electronics but to me it is still all computing and seems odd they are separate.Actually, I would have placed the 6801 discussion we are having under the Computing, Vintage area but it is a microcomputer/microcontroller. As the site grows and adds new areas that are not clearly defined, it will make navigating the site more difficult. Again, just MO.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 03:35:27 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 15, 2019, 12:47:48 pmI think an even more important reason for dedicated boards (forums? subforums?) is that it allows members to focus on the subject areas they are interested in, without having to wade through masses of uninteresting posts.I've already mentioned elsewhere that the separateBeginnersarea, where some members provide invaluable help to those of us without practical electrical engineering experience, is either sheer genius or an amazing stroke of luck. It should reduce the amount of general beginner questions elsewhere, so that greybeards who don't feel like reading such, don't have to. If they had to wade through scattered newbie posts, I bet they'd visit less frequently, just to avoid seeing the same errors repeated and wondered about year in, year out. With theBeginnersarea, they can wade in and give advice when they feel like it, and not be pestered with beginner questions all the time.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 03:44:38 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 15, 2019, 03:23:02 pmFunny how no matter the topic, it always comes back to cars.I agree, that having these gray areas that are not well defined make it difficult to know where to post and search. It's understandable that we will see this sort of cross over. IMO, if the people posting are not clear about where to post, it is pointing to a bigger problem. That seems to be the case here.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 03:52:13 pm
content: Oh my God, imagine what would happen if someone posted in the wrong area!One key trait of engineers is the desire to put things into categories, and ignoring the fact most of the time it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 04:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 15, 2019, 03:52:13 pmExactly my point!! Why have so many places to post about computing when it's not very popular and really makes no difference? It only makes the site more cluttered and difficult to navigate. Again just MO.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 04:24:10 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 14, 2019, 11:20:33 amThose surveys are bogus. Most designs use MCUs that aren't even big enough to run a bare bones OS, so you know they are bare metal designs. There must be massive selection bias in the respondents to those surveys.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 04:54:15 pm
content: As Nominal Animal said, a microcontroller is an electronic component, not a complete system. That alone is enough to answer the OP's question. Of course sometimes there is a thin line between the two, but you just gotta make a decision and stick to it.Many, if not most, questions relative to microcontrollers here wouldn't fit in a general computing section IMO. The exception being probably the questions that are strictly programming questions. Problem is, for some programming issues, many people, especially beginners, would have a hard time judging whether the question is strictly a programming one or if it's specific to microcontrollers. So no need to fret. The topics may be moved later on if some moderator thinks they belong to programming sections (problem with that is that if someone else encounters the same issue on a microcontroller, they may not think about looking it up in a general programming section... and thus we'd risk more duplicate topics...)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 05:39:00 pm
content: Maybe my definition of computing or computer is flawed.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/computinghttps://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/computerNow where to put my home made CPUs? They are fairly old, I am going with vintage. Then again, I do use assembler and ucode. They do involve interfacing some hardware so maybe here. But they are not really microcontrollers but rather use FPGAs so maybe the FPGA section.. IMO, its computing.https://youtu.be/C8txvmXUIJQ?t=796

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 07:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 15, 2019, 05:39:00 pmYour definition isn't necessarily flawed and there will always be a lot of overlap, but in lieu of throwing it all in one monster category you'll need to draw arbitrary lines. There inevitably will be people who don't agree with those lines, wherever you put them.Nominal Animal and SiliconWizard seem to have it right. The distinction between system and component is acknowledged and used as a basis for the different categories. I don't necessarily disagree with that, although I do see some potential issues depending on how people use the categories.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 07:27:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 15, 2019, 07:03:36 pmWe have been using the term SoC for some time when talking about a single component FPGAs and controllers. I suspect the IT and CS guys get hung up on the acronyms but to me, they are still all Computing.The T&M section actually is one monster category and there are no arbitrary lines as of yet. It's touted as the largest T&M forum on the net. Obviously, not segmenting that area has worked out well. Computing is much smaller with lots of categories, except nothing for microcontrollers.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 10:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 15, 2019, 07:27:19 pmAs has been said, wherever the lines are drawn there will always be people to object.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 12:03:10 am
content: Don't fix what ain't broken. End of discussion.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 02:37:14 am
content: Quote from: asmi on June 16, 2019, 12:03:10 amI agree, but if it wasn't broken, then why the changes? The main page now has more categories for Computing than some of the far more popular areas.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 02:55:29 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 16, 2019, 02:37:14 amThat's what I don't get. I never got an answer for why ...

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 03:56:44 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 16, 2019, 02:55:29 amPlease provide a link to this discussion.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 07:26:59 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 15, 2019, 07:27:19 pmThat reminds me of early 2000s, when a lot of people on the net insisted on calling SMSes "faxing".You don't get the right to redefine terms just because you cannot get them right. If you do, it is not that others "get hung up on the acronyms"; you are just wrong. One more to the ignore list, I guess!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 09:56:20 am
content: How about categories:1. Code..2. Things that run code..3. Things that don't run code but use electricity..4. Doodas that you use to measure things..5. How to use doodas that you use to measure things..6. Crazy people obsessing about nanovolts...LOL.Any hierarchy will make sense completely only to a person that though it up..All that is important is to make sure that homepage of the forum properly enumerates what is what and where it is...

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 11:47:34 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 16, 2019, 03:56:44 amAll of this -https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/time-to-split-up-the-tm-categories/

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 01:07:42 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 16, 2019, 11:47:34 amI jumped in a few times but didn't follow it. Odd that the highest votes are no changes or small ones and we get major changes in computing which wasn't even part of the question. If Dave's comment really was the goal:"As I said in my OP, it's not because many people have been asking for it, it's more for outside appearances. e.g people hear about the EEVblog forum being THE place for test gear, and you come in and there is only one area for all test gear."I don't see how adding all these Computing topics to the main page helps reach that goal and I agree with tggzzz.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/time-to-split-up-the-tm-categories/msg2418657/#msg2418657

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 01:21:42 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 16, 2019, 01:07:42 pmI dunno Joe.I posted and posted and got shot down most of the time. I just decided to quit and leave and not take it any farther.The Test Equipment board has over 308,000 posts and itdidn'tget split out. But the computing boards all add up to less than 5,000 posts anddidget all split out. I thought I was sort of intelligent, but I guess greater minds than mine carry logic beyond my powers to understand.I appreciate Dave having this forum and I guess it's what the powers that be decided, but I'll be damned if I understand what is going on.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 06:10:13 am
content: I mean is there a reason to beat on this? Topics kind of gravitate around the forums description and other threads that are already there, as long as people are helpful there is no problem if something was posted in a different area -it takes a moderator a tiny bit of effort to move the topic. The real problems start when people stop being helpful and distract with complaints about posting to the wrong section and such - or sidetrack by blaming the existence and choice of sections as the cause. Even if a moderator would move the topic, then there areobsolete postsin there that either need removal or are completely out of context and irrelevant to everyone that finds and reads the thread, that drives the required effort up by a lot. Please don´t do that.Treat all topics as discussions in the making and you can still only know what the problem is after you found a cause. It makes a good hen and egg problem, to know where to post your question before knowing an answer - sort of.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 06:44:37 am
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on June 17, 2019, 06:10:13 amI have to admit I feel the same. What's been said seems to have been said. I think everyday reality whether the categories are practical or not and suspect adjustments will be made accordingly if major issues arise.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2019, 02:42:57 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 14, 2019, 02:34:12 pmI'd call that particular chip a microprocessor not a microcontroller because while it has a little onchip memory as a microcontroller has, it also has external address and data bus to access up to 64 KB.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2019, 06:15:53 pm
content: Last time I looked at that other forum (a couple of days ago), virtually ALL of the threads on the first page (e.g. the most recent threads) were Arduino based. Seriously, I was stunned. It read like the "Arduino Forum".Given that, I'm glad this forum is separate because it appears all of the truly embedded stuff is here, uncluttered by Arduinos and other "mini-board-level systems". Those have their place, for sure, but truly embedded development is not the same as just plugging in an Arduino and some off-the-shelf shield boards.EDIT: I just looked at that forum again. There are 26 threads on the first page, and 23 of them have "Arduino" in the title! I'd say a "computing" forum where fully 88% of the threads have "Arduino" in the titles is mostly an Arduino forum. I'll continue to bring my (truly) Embedded topics to this forum, thanks.And no, combining the two forums into a single "embedded" forum is not a good idea. It's been my experience that there is an enormous difference between Arduino users and true Embedded Engineers. Arduinos have their place, but the fact is their use cases are radically different from those where folks are designing embedded systems at the chip level instead of the board level. Please keep them separate. In fact, a better name for the Arduino (excuse me, "Computing/Embedded Computing") forum might be "Computing/Board Level Systems" since its own subtitle describes itself as "Single board computers like the Raspberry Pi, BeagleBoard etc Hardware and Software."

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 02:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 16, 2019, 12:45:53 pmWell, FPGAs (especially the larger ones) definitely can, and often are used to implement a SoC, especially for prototyping/development, so it makes perfect sense to me?Of course it sounds a bit dumb, like "travel car" or "drinking beer"; a person buying an FPGA to synthesize a SoC on it knows what they are doing, but nevertheless this isn't wrong.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2019, 09:12:52 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult (underline mine) on June 18, 2019, 02:42:57 amTongue firmly planted in cheek:So you mean a microprocessor, like, say, a PSoC or an STM32?