Speck Behind Display Window: Ignore It Or Try to Remove It? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: THX1138
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 07:35:32 pm
content: Just picked up a "used" Fluke 87-III online for a very good price that arrived today. I was willing to take a chance on it due to its appearance in the photos and my communications with the seller, who seemed to be telling the truth about the item being barely used and having "no imperfections." And the price was right. The multimeter arrived today and does look generally new, but it has one flaw that is disappointing: a small speck of something, or possibly a nick, behind the display window. The photo I attached shows the problem.Should I just try to ignore it and leave it alone? The multimeter seems to work properly, after all, and the rest of it does appear to be like new. Or, having no experience in taking apart multimeters or any other electronic equipment, should I try to take the multimeter apart and clean the back of the display? I have no idea what to do, but I do feel somewhat like a fool for believing the seller's assurances that there were no imperfections in the item. I did ask him specifically about the display, and whether there were any marks, scratches, nicks, discolorations, etc., and he apparently did not tell me the whole truth.Any advice you can provide will be greatly appreciated. The most advanced work I've done in electronics repair was removing and reinstalling the fans in a ham radio transceiver (they had been installed backwards at the factory). Not a complicated process. Taking this multimeter apart would make me nervous.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 07:53:57 pm
content: I think you're talking about the microscopic small white spot, right? The big grey one is probably the shadow of your skull.It's a small piece of dust between the protective acrylic cover and the glass of the LCD. Either live with it, or open the multimeter and blow/brush it away.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 08:12:41 pm
content: It's a speck of dust or plastic (or dandruff) from assembly, nothing to get excited about. I doubt Fluke assemble them in white smock clean-room conditions.Try rubbing the display window with a soft dry cloth, the static will probably shift it - or attract a few more!

author: Manul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 08:22:35 pm
content: Maybe the seller haven't noticed or he did not care (like most people would), maybe the dust was somewhere else, but moved during shipment. But you know, frankly speaking you bought it is used, not from shop and it looks better then 99.99% of used meters, so you are amazingly lucky with such purchase.I would not suggest to open meter for that reason, but it is your choice. Is the dust on LCD or protective acrylic glass? You might be able to move it away if lucky. If you have signal generator, you could try sticking a piezo and sweeping frequencies to try to detach it. Could be fun to try.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 08:40:26 pm
content: Your average home or workshop has enough airborne dust and microfibres to make any attempt to remove that speck an extreme gamble even ignoring any risk of damage, as the chances are you'll introduce more debris than you successfully remove! IMHO, leave it strictly alone unless you've got access to a filtered glove-box, or can improvise one.

author: THX1138
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 10:30:23 pm
content: Thank you very much for your replies. The general consensus that there is significant risk of introducing more dust into the multimeter by opening it up is in accord with what I was guessing, and I am somewhat relieved to see the comments indicating that the speck of dust shouldn't interfere with the proper operation of the device.Yeah, it was a gamble to begin with, and the device seems to work and look good, other than that flaw in its appearance. But I doubt he didn't notice it was there....Thanks again, for helping a new forum member so quickly and thoroughly.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 07:55:10 am
content: Having opened many older Fluke 87’s at work to clean their zebra strips, I don’t agree with the warnings about getting dust in. I haven’t found that to be a big problem during reassembly.Bear in mind that getting to this dust only involves opening the meter as far as you’d have to open it for a fuse replacement.If you do decide to open it, some tips:1. Use adhesive to pick up dust. The ideal tape is something like theremovablescotch tape, or Kapton tape. A post it note will do in a pinch. You don’t want an overly strong adhesive. Gadget repair shops often use gel rollers, similar to what are sold to consumers as washable lint rollers, toremove dust from screens and glassbefore joining them.2. If possible, avoid cleaning the display itself. The front layer of the LCD panel itself is very easy to scratch, even a rough tissue can scuff it a bit. Won’t make it unusable or anything, but not ideal. If you do need to clean it, I suggest using adhesive, and if there’s still stuff to clean (like a fingerprint), use a soft, lint-free cloth (like an immaculately clean eyeglass cloth) or lab tissue and some isopropyl.3. If you ever need to extract the whole LCD panel, be careful with the clips on the display bezel, they’re easy to break off.4. Poor man’s clean room: with the door closed, the exhaust fan off, and any windows and air conditioning vents closed, run your shower on full hot for a few minutes to get your bathroom really steamy, then with the door still closed, let it cool off a bit. The steam will condense on floating dust particles and weigh them down, and they’ll sink out of the air. And of course, once you’re done using your “clean room”, you’ll want to really air it out well to ensure it dries fully and quickly. (Ain’t nobody got time for mold!) Obviously, this isn’t truly clean room level, but good enough for things like applying screen protectors to phones with much lower risk of entrapped dust.5. There are antistatic surface treatments like Staticide that help dust to not be attracted to things.

author: THX1138
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 05:23:19 pm
content: Wow, the voice of experience! Thanks for the information. I’d like to print that out and file it for future reference. Unfortunately, the situation took a turn into the Twilight Zone yesterday, when I sent the seller a note about the surprise speck. Rather than offering an explanation or a discount on the price, he went berserk. What followed led to me losing a lot of sleep last night, then concluding that I had little choice but to return of the multimeter for a refund.I’ll buy a new Greenlee and consider this a lesson learned about buying used electronics equipment via the web.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 05:27:52 pm
content: I have a Fluke 87-III, I've opened it up a number of times to replace blown fuses due to being careless, and I usually blow it out with a can of air duster before I reassemble. It's no big deal at all, they're designed to be user serviceable, you just remove a few screws and the whole front lid pulls off.

author: THX1138
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2021, 07:14:20 pm
content: Thanks for that information! It’s obvious you speak from experience, as have the others who replied to my op. I’ll know what to do when this situation comes up again. Thanks to all - this is clearly a forum of friendly and polite people eager to share knowledge with others. I’ll be learning a lot from all of you, no doubt.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 05:10:54 am
content: Quote from: THX1138 on August 31, 2021, 05:23:19 pmWhy would you write the seller about that? Complaining about dust in a user service area of the meter is like complaining that a second hand shirt arrived with a wrinkle.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 08:09:46 am
content: Quote from: THX1138 on August 31, 2021, 05:23:19 pmIt sounds as if you just lost yourself a good meter.It must be the seller who thinks he's been dragged into the Twilight Zone. Trying to sting him for a discount is pretty shoddy behaviour, no wonder he was 'upset' to to some degree or another.It's this sort of thing that tips sellers into thinking that it's just not worth the hassle, and dries up the opportunities for the rest of us.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 09:02:54 am
content: Quote from: THX1138 on August 31, 2021, 05:23:19 pmI don't see what your problem with a little speck of dust is. It's perfectly normal for a second hand item to have minor imperfections like this. Indeed, I probably wouldn't have even noticed it and neither did the seller.Even if you buy a brand new unit, it's still possible it might have a small speck of dust on the screen, as it won't be completely hermetically sealed and it's possible a piece of packing material might get inside it.Your expectations are completely unrealistic. Had I sold you the meter, I wouldn't have accepted a return.

author: THX1138
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 02:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 01, 2021, 08:09:46 amWow, you try to be nice and this is what you get - as with the seller of the item at issue. First, I didn't lose myself anything. You fail to acknowledge what I said in my posts very clearly - that before the purchase, I inquired in detail about the condition of the display and specifically brought up imperfections like this one. I did not "hassle" anyone - I have a right and it is perfectly reasonable to inquire about such an issue, which I did very politely and without blaming or accusing the seller of anything. The price of any item for sale, either new or used, is always conditional on the condition of the item - at least it always has been in the world I live in. It was the seller who forced me into initiating the return process.Second, blaming me for the seller selling me an item in a condition that was not accurately represented, and which represents a substantial chunk of money for me, makes no sense. And accusing me of poisoning the entire market in used electronics equipment is even more ridiculous and rude. I thought being rude was discouraged in the forums here?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 02:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: THX1138 on September 01, 2021, 02:00:34 pmThe seller probably should have encouraged you not to buy it if you specifically asked about imperfections the size of a speck of dust unrelated to the function of the used meter.It's too bad that they didn't pick up on your specific inquiry here and now you both seem to be disappointed and flabbergasted at the outrageous behavior of the other party to the transaction.

author: THX1138
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 02:08:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 01, 2021, 05:10:54 amI didn't say I complained about it, did I? I said I asked him about it. I was very nice about it, as a matter of fact - and you couldn't possibly know the contents and tone of my communications with the seller. Why would you assume facts that aren't true?I'll make it easier for you: obviously, it is my fault that the seller didn't mention the type of flaw I specifically asked about, before bidding on the item. There - happy?

author: THX1138
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 02:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 01, 2021, 09:02:54 amI didn't say a speck of dust should be a problem. I said I simply asked him about it, since I had asked specifically about that type of thing on the display before bidding on the item. You don't know what my expectations were, so you aren't particularly qualified to lecture me about what they should be or shouldn't be. And I didn't demand a return - that was his doing. But other than that, you are right on the money.I take back what I said about this forum being a friendly and helpful place.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 02:19:43 pm
content: All this over a bit of dust which can be trivially removed with no dangerous side effectsI buy mine like this.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 02:40:44 pm
content: Quote from: THX1138 on September 01, 2021, 02:12:41 pmYour original post seemed to indicate you thought it was unreasonable for there to be a tiny speck of dust on the screen, which most people here appear to think was an unrealistic expectation.Quote from: THX1138 on August 30, 2021, 07:35:32 pmIt's possible the dust got there, during transit.This forum is a friendly and reasonable place. It isn't our fault you don't like the advice offered.I still recommend you keep it, rather than returning it, if you can. You got a good deal. I suggest you tell the seller you're happy with it and was just asking asking a question, rather than trying to get an extra discount, or something for nothing and want to keep it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 04:42:36 pm
content: This is beginning to sound very troll likeA zero poster turns up with a picture of an obviously tiny speck of dust and a tale to tell, gets lots of comforting positive advice, and then stokes it by saying he's putting the seller though the hassle and expense of a frivolous return...Quote from: THX1138 on September 01, 2021, 02:00:34 pmHow do you "enquire" about a speck of dust without wanting something out of it - it was you who mentioned "offering an explanation or a discount on the price". What responses can the seller possibly give? It either has to be 'I didn't notice it (Here, have a chunk of money back!)' or 'It wasn't there when I shipped it (your word against mine), but here, have a chunk of money back to avoid a return!'. You were clearlyafter something. [Edit: ...and the seller obviously "forced" you by not playing ball].QuoteI simply have to ask myself, would I go through the hassle and return costs of selling some of my, perfectly serviceable, used kit to somebody who's going to make a frivolous return like this? Then look at the number of people who read this forum every day (already over 500 views on this thread and counting) who might contemplating selling some of their own surplus kit... It's simple maths.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 06:50:47 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 01, 2021, 08:09:46 amIndeed, it's exactly this sort of thing that makes me leery of selling on ebay. Buyers of used equipment having totally unrealistic expectations and the way ebay stacks the deck heavily in favor of the buyer, it's just not worth it. If a buyer wrote and complained about a speck of dust I wouldn't go nuts but I would certainly add them to my blocked bidders list so I'd have one less drama queen to deal with down the road. There's a very good chance that speck wasn't even in a visible place when the meter was shipped, and it's in a location which is meant to be user accessible and serviceable so it's a total non-issue. Buyer lost out on arguably one of the best DMMs ever made, superior to the current 87-V in my opinion, and it looks like it's in great shape. I'm sure they will have no trouble selling it to someone else.If you want absolute perfection, buy a brand new one from Fluke, it will cost you $450 but there's a decent chance you won't have to spend 2 minutes blowing a speck of dust off the display.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 06:52:28 pm
content: That’s not usually a problem from experience. I’ve sold a metric ton of test gear and had only one problem. The buyer couldn’t work out how to use a 5334B and didn’t want to RTFM

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 07:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: THX1138 on September 01, 2021, 02:12:41 pmBy and large it is a friendly and helpful place, but it's also a community of people who come here voluntarily to share information and you get out what you put in. You're more than welcome to hang out here and I think you'll find people are very happy to answer questions and give you information. I will say though that in this particular case you're in the wrong, you have completely unrealistic expectations and you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The reasonable way to handle your situation was to ask here if that speck of dust is a problem, then wait a day or two for some experienced people to chime in and say "no, it's no big deal at all, just take the cover off and wipe the dust speck out" and then you do that and everyone is happy.Try to see this from the perspective of the seller, they sold a used item that frankly appears to be in great shape. During shipping it's likely a speck of dust shifted and ended up on the display, these things are not assembled and serviced in a clean room, it happens, it's no big deal at all, you just open it up and clean it out, Fluke meters are made for professionals who know what they're doing and they're meant to be serviced. I don't intend this to be rude, but you are behaving like the stereotypical princess here, costing the seller time and money over a speck of dust. If they had sold the meter to me or anyone else here they'd have got their money, we'd have got our meter and that would be the end of it, done deal, smooth transaction, no hassle. Do you see why they might be annoyed?You do you, but if I were in your position I'd just admit I was wrong and overreacted and move on with life, nobody is going to chastise you at that point or bring it up a year from now and say "ha ha what a moron!", it's not a big deal, we all make mistakes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 07:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 01, 2021, 06:52:28 pmOh I've sold a bunch of stuff too and I generally haven't had many problems, but there is a first time for everything. Recently I listed something that was brand new with a price significantly below retail or best offer and I had some guy contact me and ask "what's your best price?" which I hate. I mean dude, the asking price is listed, that's what I want, if that's too much for you then make me an offer, money talks, don't waste my time. Later he contacted me again saying he had used up all his offers and asked me if I'd take a certain amount which I said fine, so I relisted it and sent him an offer and he accepted. Then he complained that I was charging tax and asked me to remove it, I told him I don't charge tax, ebay does, they are legally required to collect it, I can't remove it. So he complains that if he'd known there would be tax he would have bought local (and he would have had to pay tax there too) and cancelled the sale so I relisted the item. Then he had the nerve to contact me and ask me to send him an invoice which would get around the tax.No dude, just no, I don't really need the money and I most certainly don't need the hassle. It really grinds my gears when I try to go out of my way for somebody and then they are just totally ungrateful and want more, I don't have time for that, especially for something that is not even a couple hundred bucks. I'd rather give it away to someone that is polite and doesn't try to jerk me around than sell it to an extreme cheapskate who expects me to bend over backwards to accommodate them and will never be satisfied. If I were interested in providing the kind of support you get with a brand new item I'd charge brand new retail price.

author: Hamelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 08:50:41 pm
content: it's unbelievable how much time some people spend looking for a fly shit

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2021, 08:52:41 pm
content: Yes indeed.Had a few of them. I had some guy wanting me to ship to Guernsey a while back. I quoted him £100 for postage (which was about right for insured delivery for the weight and value) which he said was taking the piss. I replied that he was taking the piss expecting me to make a loss shipping there. Turns out you can’t tell a user to “fuck off” via messages but you can tell them to “feck off”

author: highpower
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2021, 02:09:03 am
content: Wow. Déjà vu.Circa 2017 I bought a brand new combustion analyzer that set me back $2K. It had a similar speck stuck to the inside of the bezel straight out of it's carry case. I emailed the customer service department about it and asked if the bezel could be easily removed so I could clean it out myself. Their answer was "no". Seeing that it was under a 2 year warranty I left it alone.The warranty ran out, it still works and the speck is still there.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2021, 03:46:01 am
content: See that would annoy me. In the case of the Fluke though cleaning the display is trivial, the front cover is a user-serviceable area, it's expected that an owner will open it up at some point, I could open a Fluke 87, wipe off the display and put it all back together in under 2 minutes. It wasn't even new and the guy said he got it for a good price, that's what makes it all so unbelievable.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2021, 05:37:09 am
content: Quote from: THX1138 on September 01, 2021, 02:12:41 pmYou have raised the gain here very rapidly, in the face of some very mild comments. As an old joke says when a new person asks a local what the people are like the local responds they are much like where you are from. Implying that social interactions largely follow the individual, not the location.But to your specific problem. You ask a specific question about flaws in the display. At least you thought you ask a specific question. But without a specification it is a very general question and subject to much disagreement. For most people large scratches, non-operating segments in the digits, and low contrast are defects. But some folks have much more challenging standards. Such as closely matched contrast on all segments, equal response time for the segments. You apparently have a dust specification, but it is unclear what it is, other than this meter does not meet your expectations. You can tell from the comments that it would meet many peoples expectations. If you say you want zero dust it is literally an impossible requirement. No visible dust is more achievable, but still requires more definition (under what magnification, what lighting and so on). So given your rather qualitative initial conversation it is not surprising that there was a miscommunication. And in spite of your assertion of a very nice communication after your receipt of the meter, it is entirely possible that the vendor received a different message than you thought you were sending.Leaving this forum in a huff after a bit of contradiction is not evidence that achieving communication is something you put much effort into. Unless something changes I would expect a series of disappointments in your future.

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2021, 09:49:05 am
content: looks to me like the op is making a big deal out of nothing,i bet as a kid he was a spoiled brat!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2021, 05:11:58 pm
content: I assumed he still is a kid, or a young adult at any rate.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2021, 05:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: THX1138 on September 01, 2021, 02:08:39 pmBut it’snota flaw: the display and the bezel are perfectly fine. There’s just a speck of dust between them, a speck of dust you could easily eliminate. To me, this is like asking a used car seller “are the windows intact”, the seller says yes, and then you write back saying “um, you said the windows were intact, but there’s a bird poop on the windshield”.