More girls should post EE video - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 08:33:18 am
content: I watch a lot of EE/electronics type videos, and there's hardly any girls posting them. Come on ladies, get to it.

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 08:54:00 am
content: seriously of the 100s of EE videos I've watched, I only remember 2-3 female teachers, and only 1 lady actually doing soldering.I want to see girls soldering.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 12:33:51 pm
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on September 22, 2018, 08:54:00 am5 different girls working on electronics, is that enough for you?EDIT: And another one:

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 01:40:12 pm
content: Also Jeri Ellsworth (not very active these days, but has an extensive collection of videos and streams), and scanlime (currently active, streaming and videos).Both have shop kittys, if you're into that kind of thing too...As for telling a nearly-nonexistent group to do your bidding... you seem to misunderstand the demographics of your field (and perhaps your priorities in entertainment as well?). My experience is about 2% of EEs are female.And if your interest is sexual in nature, understand further that the fraction of lesbian and trans within that subset is far higher than in the population in general.Tim

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 08:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on September 22, 2018, 08:54:00 amAnd who are you to order non existent youtube users into action? if you want to drool over girls in videos at least get an interest in maths.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 08:57:29 pm
content: I sorta hate the whole video blog thing.It used to be you could write a nice paper, maybe with ascii pictures, and everyone would think it was neat.Now you have to be good looking and have a nice voice (or at least not be self-conscious about those), work on your speaking skills, spend hours doing video editing, get expensive lighting and microphones, and then put up with nasty comments about everything but your content... (and if you're female, you get to put up with being called a "girl" and/or comments about your sexualuity (both of have already happened in this thread.)) (hats off to people like Dave and Mike and Fran and Limor who put up with it all.)

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 09:19:25 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on September 22, 2018, 08:57:29 pmplenty of "talking hands" videos where you never see who is behind the camera, people like DiResta have great success with videos with no talking, you can make video with a cell phone, I think BigClive used to do that

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 09:24:44 pm
content: I don't get the point of the comments about the presenter sex or appearance. I also don't like video tutorials. Videos for me are more for entertainment and general knowledge, in depth details and step by step guides belong on paper where it is easy to refer to any part of them.On the other hand there are channels that specifically use female presenters to draw the droolers in, scrapper girl was one that had an attractive red head trying to talk authoritatively on recovering metals from things like computers while she made very poor demonstrations of taking these things apart. The reality was the thing was heavily scripted and poorly rehearsed and presented and it was very obvious that the presenter clearly did not have a clue what she was talking about or know how to use basic hand tools while presenting herself as an expert.It's an age old trick. A connector supplier that I have a personal distaste for as he is a smarmy arsehole made a final ditch at getting my custom by sending his newly recruited pretty female sales rep. She had obviously been told that i was a bit of a geek and her charms might not work so the declared herself a geek and professed to love engineering and connectors.... so I took her to the workshop where i had a table full of connectors for a project i was working on. She clearly did not have a clue about what she was talking about. I never heard from that supplier again and good riddance. I actually prefer talking to sales reps with an engineering background and those so far in my experience have all been men although i have come across female tech support that knew her stuff inside out unlike the male sales rep from the same company.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 09:33:25 pm
content: A girl's gotta do, gotta do what a girl's gotta do

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 10:03:56 pm
content: you can watch women solder stain glass pretty decorationhobby gadget impractical unnecessary and no fit decourfrom my experiences I expect jerri ellsworth face to open up and a martian to run out, she is a rare women. In a sense most women are kind of right because the do-dads that they put together can be used for a display, given as gifts, have some dollar value, etc.. what men make usually ends up collecting dust in a hidden shed no one wants to admit the existence of. Most men have a 'goverment warehouse' out fitted with the latest insane combination of cutting edge technologies of decades prior. These devices may light up some kind of display but usually have a cryptic BNC output (and maybe a LED) and their existence may be of interest to some professors and engineers.Maybe robotics engineering bridges this gap between man and women but as far as things like analog electronics, high speed systems and radio research, fat chance IMO. **i mean in the home as a nonpaid hobby.In general this hobby is not very social. Even I heard from things like ham-clubs and everything their not really some kind of engineering communes like you would think, more like drinking, bullshitting, showing off equipment, etc. Don't know about maker spaces. I would assume alot of people trying to make it rich, but there are a few hopeful marker space youtube channels out there, kind of.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 10:18:47 pm
content: There is also a difference between a more general channel and a very specialized one (where solder or other "heavy machinery" would be the main act). I am with others that procedural content is better presented in written form, but in rare cases the continuous video can help (soldering techniques, for example).Adding to the list above, although heavily scripted and sometimes cut quite short, the channel Beauty and the Bolt tends to spark my interest as a general content channel.

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 10:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 22, 2018, 12:33:51 pmGuys, if you noticed the tools in the background first, then I have bad news for you !

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 10:46:51 pm
content: there was actually a conspiracy theory about her being a shill for her boyfriend. I believe it was effectively countered however.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 05:16:23 am
content: I'm pretty sure all girls in tech have run into problems with misogyny at some point. I remember reading something about how it was especially bad back when Fran was trying to start a business.Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2018, 08:35:56 pmBroaden the scope to include art and general DIY, then you'll find plenty of girls like Anne of All Trades, April Wilkerson, Laura Kampf, and Simone Giertz. And if you're into custom PCs, there's CaitlinV3, Nerdphilia, and TastyPC.Quote from: M4trix on September 22, 2018, 10:40:00 pmWe need more girls setting examples that it's OK to set up an electronics lab in the living room, so that other girls get the idea. Makes it a lot easier for the (married) guys who want to have more space for their hobby.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 10:11:55 am
content: This thread smells more like hormone kicking in action rather than electronics, get a real girl or at least real pron.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 10:14:35 am
content: You can tell who hasn't been married for 20 years in this thread.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 11:13:07 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 22, 2018, 09:33:25 pmHow dare you refer girls as porno objects! Shame, Shame on you!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 01:26:13 pm
content: Unless you've been sarcastic, you have quite a bizzare interpretation of the song that was on top of Apple music chart in Canada

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 02:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: M4trix on September 22, 2018, 10:40:00 pmI noticed the fact that the intro cartoon images are erm, specifically made to evoke a reaction and she has very poor dexterity with tools and what was she using gloves for? (I jumped in at the middle as I got bored). I'm in too minds as to if she does this for the add revenue or the love of it.If I want to drool over a woman's body I have plenty of the specific and appropriate content for that purpose that does not involve engineering. If i am going to watch an engineering video I expect it to be such!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 02:09:25 pm
content: Since Simon noticed it too, I wonder if the rumors about her being a actress for someone else are true.IMO an actor on a youtube channel thats supposed to be a hobby is kind of scary and it would be considered kinda predatory on the DIY community.But she is using a glove to seemingly avoid a painful hot glue mishap. IMO its a good technique when a manager is present.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 02:10:16 pm
content: Well said Simon. Give me Alan Wolke over that crap any day

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 02:12:59 pm
content: I have no problems with her videos but I do maybe kinda notice a weird unfamiliarity with hand tools, it reminds me of a time I had to educate someone that was basically completely sheltered on how to spark a flint for a torch in a lab class (the person had exceedingly poor 'thumb control' iirc. I could tell they never cooked or did anything fine.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 02:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 23, 2018, 02:09:25 pmIt's no different any other acting and choice of presenter not based on their relevance to the subject at hand, it's just that this is supposedly a presenter that knows what she is doing. I suppose she is the female Ben HeckGloves for hot glue? OK say's it all really..... I prefer to have my hands free when working, using gloves just reduces the usefulness of my hands and hot glue is not actually that hot but each to their own.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 02:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 02:01:19 pmWhat would you prefer she be doing? Playing video games? Making music? Dancing? There's a lot of content on those so it's valued less.I think the reason Naomi Wu is valued so much is because so far, nobody else has challenged the way she shows herself off through engineering. But that might be changing soon because Sarah Petkus was apparently inspired to start a project of that type. See some teasers here:https://hackaday.io/project/158886-she-bon/log/148357-pulse-pack-enclosure-buildQuote from: coppercone2 on September 23, 2018, 02:09:25 pmShe works for Creality, although I do not know if she's a regular employee or a contractor.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 03:03:25 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 23, 2018, 02:59:08 pmQuoteIf she is not competent at engineering then not in anything of that nature, if all it's about is her body, the traditional route for that is to go into modelling of one sort or another.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 04:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 02:58:23 pmI think that's probably the most apt comparison. It's notable that all the discussion of Ben Heck that's ever taken place on here has either been about his soldering ability or lack thereof, or his technical knowledge - never about the size of his balls or whether he's got implants.Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 02:58:23 pmI've had some impressively painful hot glue burns. I might take a hint and grab some gloves next time I'm playing with it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 04:15:54 pm
content: Yes but we are blokes, what would a predominantly female audience be saying about Ben Heck?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 04:45:20 pm
content: at least its not oiled up dave jones in a speedo

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 04:47:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 04:15:54 pmI would imagine, "God that's awful soldering".

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 04:49:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 23, 2018, 04:45:20 pmOh please. I'm still trying to get the image of Paul Hogan in budgie smugglers out of my mind, I don't need that too. Oh well, at least it wasn't Les Patterson in budgie smugglers....

author: the_janitor
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 04:52:57 pm
content: the patriarchy and condescension in this thread!1!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 04:54:37 pm
content: There is always fun with brave girls.I am not an author of these photos. Do not try it.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 05:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on September 23, 2018, 04:54:37 pmI think that crossed the line between brave and insane stupidity

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 05:07:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 03:03:25 pmWhich seems to be what she's doing? I would say that if she just showed the end result and skipped the build, everyone would be asking where she got that stuff from.Things are going to get interesting once Sarah Petkus releases a video showing off herself as well as her very advanced engineering skills. Would she eventually end up taking the lead or would most viewers prefer to keep the engineering at a basic level?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 05:46:19 pm
content: thats why you don't smoke crack and play tomb raider.Is this from russia?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 05:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: the_janitor on September 23, 2018, 04:52:57 pmWell that is going to be one hot girl pretty fast after turn on, but surely that was a joke and a setup at worse.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 05:56:36 pm
content: It would be nice if more women were genuinely interested in engineering, but there are not very many, especially hardware oriented stuff like EE. Throughout elementary and highschool I cannot recall encountering a single female who had anything other than disdain for "geeks". At the college I went to there was *one* girl in the entire EE program, I don't know if she graduated because I dropped out for various reasons. It's really only in the last 10 years or so that being a nerd/geek/etc seems to have lost much of the stigma.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 06:13:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 23, 2018, 05:56:36 pmNo it's only in the last ten years that the term geek has been reapropriated and is now a the new cool but from what I can gather it simply means that you have the money to buy the most expensive tech particularly if it's apple. The original meaning has been lost or rather has been torn away from those who genuinely identify with it.There is still nothing cool about hardcore electronics and software. These day's these so called geeks that venture near the field of electronics are workshy and superficial and will buy off the shelf development tools like an arduino, write a few lines of code and proclaim to be doing electronics.I wanted to hit my boss when he asked me if the project I had labored at for 2 months solid was an arduino......... no it only incorporated 5 power rails involving a charge pump and had lots of custom circuitry specific to the project.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 06:47:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 06:13:27 pmMy experience is that for test platforms, using off the shelf tools where they make sense is preferred. When I worked at Intel, they had some custom test boards based on Arduino. Specifically because it would be easier for another engineer to maintain it as opposed to a completely custom design based on (for example) PIC.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 06:57:19 pm
content: That is not what I was referring to. I too use arduino for test jigs, they don't need to be pretty and neither do they need to pass shock and vibration or EMC but they do need making fast and as you say someone else has a chance of understanding them later.But I do not call making hobby projects with pre existing boards and a few lines of code where 99.99% of the code was provided doing electronics. but with the new perversion of the word geek it makes you a geek.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 07:55:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 23, 2018, 05:46:19 pmThis is from Czech Republic.https://zpravy.idnes.cz/zachrana-zfetovane-divky-ze-stozaru-vysokeho-napeti-p0j-/krimi.aspx?c=A120620_162801_zlin-zpravy_sotYou might have never heard of that country.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 08:11:57 pm
content: Can you give us the jist of what happened?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 08:14:57 pm
content: from another source:"A girl in Czech Republic climbed an electricity pylon hallucinating on ultra-strong ‘skunk’ cannabis. She was convinced that this was a bridge across the Morava river. Locals called the emergency services and the girl was coaxed down unhurt after two hours of precarious balancing on high-voltage wires."

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 08:21:19 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 08:11:57 pmafaict unhappy love and drugshttps://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=cs&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fzpravy.idnes.cz%2Fzachrana-zfetovane-divky-ze-stozaru-vysokeho-napeti-p0j-%2Fkrimi.aspx%3Fc%3DA120620_162801_zlin-zpravy_sot

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 08:36:46 pm
content: Ah, the line was not live or she would not be.

author: JugglingElectrons
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 08:41:18 pm
content: I agree that I would like to see more women online posting electronics and mathematics videos. The sad part is that many of them aren't going into engineering. If I had to guess it would be only 10% female at best for EE/EET in my area. At my local University the women were represented more proportionally in the physics department so that is encouraging. I really want to see more videos from women, but it's just going to have to wait until somebody wants to be that new electrical educational character.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 08:43:58 pm
content: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2162558/Czech-woman-scales-electricity-pylon-hallucinating-super-strength-skunk-cannabis.html

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 08:53:28 pm
content: Wow, that was some powerful stuff!Presumably they cut the power by the time she got up there.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 08:55:00 pm
content: I don't understand the sudden expectation of more women in engineering. If it's what they want to do they will do it these days and every college in the UK loves to plaster their site with pictures of female students in the lab.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 09:22:53 pm
content: non-equal distribution means people get all sorts of ideas relating to things like discrimination, male culture, or currently radical ideas like difference between male and female intellecta imbalance is seen as a problem in a society that says things are theoretically equal naturally but are unequal because of negative societal and social factors brought on by the history of human development

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 09:29:56 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 02:58:23 pmIt sure feels hot when you get it on your hand. I got a fairly serious burn on my finger from hot glue a couple years ago, it dripped on the side of my finger and stuck there. Blistered and left a scar that was visible for a couple months. I still don't wear gloves to use it but I can see why someone might want to.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 09:34:29 pm
content: What you might not know about hot glue is that there are industrial grades which require higher temperatures as well. I believe some go higher then 450F (they don't look normal, usually applied from a heavy duty looking 3M applicator and the cartridges have a solid plasticky/wax brown color rather then the flimsy low temp melt clearish stuff.Yea, industrially you get the ribbed yellow ones usedhttps://www.hotmelt.com/blogs/blog/the-ultimate-3m-hot-melt-glue-stick-guide

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 09:36:05 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 06:57:19 pmSometimes I do that. Other times I design the whole thing from scratch and lay out a board, and write all the firmware myself. It really just depends on what I'm building, if I can accomplish it by sticking together a handful of dirt cheap modules from China using existing libraries and it does what I need it to do then why not? If it's a one-off going into a box and doesn't need to be visually pleasing then I don't always feel the need to show off.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 09:37:08 pm
content: I call it 'systems engineering' as not to ruffle any feathers because it sometimes takes an awful lot of time to find all that shit. And its often heavily cost optimized.Even if you put together a computer its a engineered solution since you looked at all the specs, made sure everything was compatible, ran a test procedure.. I guess now everything works better together but its still fairly skilled labor.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 09:44:43 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2018, 06:57:19 pmI'll bet the same thing was said when people first started using ICs instead of building using all discrete components or before MCU use became prevelant. Things evolve.In a professional setting - I'd say whatever is the most efficient to get the job at hand done would be wise. In a hobbyist setting - whatever is most enjoyable. Whichever label once chooses to put on it seems irrelevant to me.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 10:03:18 pm
content: TBF Arduino is just a slightly crack-smoking preprocessor around AVR-libc / AVR-gcc and some off the shelf libraries that are mediocre quality and a just about good enough IDE. But you know that gets you to the destination reasonably well compared to everything else. I can't complain. I regularly throw some stuff together quick with one to get something done.But I've got agree with Simon but on a slightly different tangent. There's a long way to go from an Arduino hookup to a commercial product.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 10:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 23, 2018, 10:03:18 pmI agree. But I bet there are lots of commercial products out there that use an ATmega 328 or similar chip that were prototyped using an Arduino and using some of the freely available code.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 10:36:03 pm
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on September 22, 2018, 08:54:00 amI highly recommend the BBC 1 series "Making Out". Watching girls soldering really isn't as fun as you think it is. It was always considered womens work.Margi Clarke lived in the terraced house in the street next to me.. lol. My GF at the time worked in the Tech Park supervising girls soldering all day long. I couldn't get a job soldering because I was a man - the dude told me to join the RAF instead. I am not kidding.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 10:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 23, 2018, 10:11:08 pmIndeed there are. I'm building one now!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 10:56:11 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on September 23, 2018, 10:36:03 pmI've seen the production lines at EMI and Marconi, in the late Seventies, early Eighties, crammed with women looking like nothing more than a whole room full of school dinnerladies. They used to give them huge firestick soldering irons but they'd do lovely clean, delicate work with them. A friend of mine, Patricia, used to work with a team (about half lasses) wiring the airframes of Tornadoes. The UK used to employ a lot of female technicians at one point.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 10:59:34 pm
content: Yes exactly. My mother used to put Telequipment scopes together. Badly as she said

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 11:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 23, 2018, 10:59:34 pmI suspect she mean in the "Bad Girl" sense - some of those lasses could turn the air blue and woe betide the spotty apprentice who had to cross the factory floor on his own, unguarded.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 11:46:38 pm
content: Jeri Ellsworth on building a magnetic loop antenna,It really got the point across about LF dipoles and the mounting height. Good to see she's making videos again

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 11:49:59 pm
content: honestly my whole day got derailed because of the glowing knockersI am waiting for a brazilian 'tail light' twerk now tbhman my day was kinda dreary but THEN THERE WAS LIGHT

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2018, 12:00:29 am
content: QuoteI remember the Farnborough air show in '78, just wandering around as you do and I heard something like "she's hot" and it got my attention. Turned out to be some guys exhibiting an IR camera that they just happened to be pointing at the crowd, you know what, they were right, I spent ages staring at that monitor.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2018, 12:08:50 am
content: Some girls building a small house:

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2018, 12:23:28 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on September 23, 2018, 10:36:03 pmIt used to be pretty common in the UK to find 100% of the people soldering production stuff were women, but anyone working on prototypes was male.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2018, 02:31:40 am
content: QuoteA well-dressed (by some measure) guy doing a technical video or presentation without obvious competence (or at a trade show booth) might be assumed to be in marketing or sales. A woman gets assumed to be an "actress" (or "booth babe.") - I don't understand why more men don't "get" that women think this is a problem...(I remember... "It's OK Bill: when the sales team takes you to a customer site, they WANT you to look like a "real engineer", an not another salesman." So it's not like the "looks to good to be technical" isn't a thing for both genders. But in the case of women, too often it turns into "oh, they don't know anything" instead of "oh, they're not as good as Dave.")QuoteFine motor skills, you know. When I had a summer job as an Electronics Tech (mostly wire-wrapping; some soldering), more than half of the full-time techs were women.And I'm pretty sure I owe my current level of comfort to women bosses and founders... (Thank you especially to Ellen and Sandy!)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2018, 09:09:58 am
content: Quote from: westfw on September 24, 2018, 02:31:40 amI guess men think that way because they've been to quite a few exhibitions where this is exactly what happens. A little less today than 20 or 30 years ago, but only a little less. Don't jump to judge people's attitudes as being how they think things should be. Most times they are just a response to observing how things really are today.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2018, 10:22:38 am
content: Quote from: westfw on September 24, 2018, 02:31:40 amMy assumption would be that the well-dressed women werealsofrom the marketing department. Depending on the industry, the presence of "booth babes" is largely a thing of the past, but when they were there it was pretty obvious who was from the agency and who was from marketing - the stage exhortation comes to mind "Teeth and tits love, teeth and tits", i.e. smile and stick your chest out. Back in my tech journo days I'd encounter a lot of people from PR companies, roughly an equal number of men and women, and it was pretty clear that the men had been selected on looks just as much as the women had been.Quote from: westfw on September 24, 2018, 02:31:40 amMy experience has been somewhat different, but I think that's because I think most of the women managers I had to deal with were from the era where women felt they "had to be better than the men to succeed" and "better" translated into "at least as arrogant and pigheaded as the men".

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2018, 06:42:37 pm
content: I work in a Engineering College. Watch out fellows, many of our classes are greater then 45% female. I coach one of the intercollegiate robotics teams, and we have many women on the team who are not afraid to get their hands dirty, take the manual machining course, or do hands on repairs. Our Baja racing team has many female participants including builders, designers, and field repair team, and drivers. Thee Mach 2 Rocket team has a female president, female propulsion designers etc... The concrete canoe team is mostly female , too..These women do it all, solder, weld, design, machine, present, budget, everything. So watch the male chauvinist attitude, it is becoming dated.Steve

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2018, 07:31:13 pm
content: Tim's about right - in my EE graduating class in 1988 we had 2 women out of about 100 total. And one of those was already out as a lesbian. And quite good at EE stuff- she was part of our group that did projects and studied together.In the 50's and into the mid-60's, my Mom worked at building transformers. As did my grandmother. She was pretty skilled at soldering, soldered all my projects back when she didn't think I was old enough to use a soldering iron by myself. After she burned my finger once though, that was it, I just did it myself from then on.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 12:42:56 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on September 24, 2018, 06:42:37 pmI see very very little of the chauvinist attitude. Most guys I know would love to see more women doing stuff like this, those that do have always been very popular, but the few that I've met throughout my life I could count on my fingers. I learned a long time ago that talking about engineering was about the most efficient method there is of repelling women. Everyone talks about the male chauvinist attitude but what about the female anti-nerd attitude that has been so prominent throughout my life?

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 01:05:24 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 25, 2018, 12:42:56 am+1Rules when dating a woman:1. Do not ask or guess her age.2. Do not ask her how much she weighs.3. Do not talk about engineering.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 01:25:10 am
content: Women who are truly passionate about engineering do seem to enjoy talking about it. Of course, now the problem is trying to figure out if a date is genuinely interested or merely in it for the money...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 06:10:45 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 23, 2018, 09:37:08 pmYes but you would not claim to be doing electronics. Arduino stuff made purely from off the shelf stuff is not electronics, I'd go with system building but not electronics.

author: Jon.C
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 06:11:47 am
content: Natashka PLUS

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 06:15:02 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 23, 2018, 10:11:08 pmAnd I contemplated that early on. It's not the Arduino that is the problem, it is the ignorance of the surrounding electronics required and how to interface the µC to the real world and how to process the results to make them meaningful like putting hysteresis in thermostat software so that your relay does not become a suicidal buzzer.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 06:23:26 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 24, 2018, 12:23:28 ammany unskilled electrical assembly jobs are done by women as they apparently make nicer work of it. In the PCB assembly factories I have visited the split was about 50/50. The harness making department was 100%. To be honest I think it is also historic as women have always been paid less and so long as it did not require technical initiative they where the worker of choice. It still goes on to a degree.On the other hand the good harness making company is all men and they turn out the most beautifully flexible harnesses no matter what is asked of them but they are 2.5-3x the price of anyone else.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 06:26:57 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 25, 2018, 12:42:56 amYes spot on, being an engineering nerd is bad enough with men around!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 06:39:04 am
content: Quote from: Jon.C on September 25, 2018, 06:11:47 amShe seems more comfortable with the gear she is working on but it's hard to judge not understanding the language.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 11:04:25 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 25, 2018, 01:25:10 amI'd estimate that 95%+ of engineers I've worked with over the decades (and the same ratio for fellow EE students) don't really have a genuine interest in it outside of the the job.So the same percentage on the already small percentage of women in engineering means you can almost round down the zero.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 10:13:26 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 25, 2018, 06:39:04 amquite the mix of subjects on that channel, from electronics to car repair. Strangely interesting trying to guess what's going on when you don't understand a word of Russian

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 11:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 25, 2018, 11:04:25 amI think the only female in that category that I have actually met throughout my entire life was Jeri Ellison, and that's only if you consider chatting for a few minutes in her booth at the maker faire about 10 years ago counts as "met." It's sure not guys preventing women from being into engineering, I've yet to meet a guy who has any desire to keep them out.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 12:12:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 25, 2018, 11:03:57 pmI know some girls who are quite passionate about engineering, mostly from college. We certainly need more of them and that's arguably where female TV show hosts are of value - make it "cool" for girls to do engineering for fun and a lot more girls will want to do that.Now I wonder how to get more girls accepting of DIY engineering, even if they aren't interested in doing it themselves.

author: juan_ee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 05:41:44 am
content: Don't forget Limor "Ladyada" Friedhttps://www.adafruit.com/about

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 06:07:27 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 26, 2018, 12:12:35 amWhy do we "need" more female engineers? is their a shortage of engineers and all the men have gone to war? If women want to go into engineering these days they will.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 07:15:02 am
content: I've been sitting here thinking about this and this is already solved.(nothing but respect for glasslinger btw - some of the finest videos on the internet)

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 07:59:51 am
content: I would like to make videosBut I cant, I'm scared to death by filming, talking and people, even phone calls are sometimes too big problem to solveSo what now ?

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 08:19:36 am
content: QuoteI've known guys with pinups all over their office walls, or pornographic desktop pictures.(no, not recently. In fact, I'm pretty sure that both those guys are dead.)That's hardly a welcoming environment.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 08:30:05 am
content: Sex of the person filming obviously shouldn't matter for the content, but I think it could matter the young nerd women out there who might be looking for role models (for lack of a better word). I mean, it helps knowing your not the only xxx-person interested in this or that when you are young, I believe.The Youtube tech channels by women i have seen do get more weird abusive comments than the average guy. We all now know that some people think they should just "grab 'em by the ****". There certainly are nasty people in the world and they are on the internet as well as everyone knows. Best thing to do is just ignore them and remind yourself they are a minority, don't let them scare you away.Quote from: Miyuki on September 26, 2018, 07:59:51 amYeah, me too. But as someone said, you don't have to show yourself on camera, just film what your working on like e.g. Big Clive, NurdRage (and many others) if that's ok.Quote from: EEVblog on September 25, 2018, 11:04:25 amAnd probably only 5% of those who are passionate about it can make good videos...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 08:32:57 am
content: Quote from: apis on September 26, 2018, 08:30:05 amBut are they?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 08:54:16 am
content: Quote from: westfw on September 26, 2018, 08:19:36 amThis reminded me ofthis recent JAMA articlethat sumarizes findings from a recent National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine Report on Sexual Harassment. Specifically the 3rd caragory they describe:Quote

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 08:58:08 am
content: Quote from: apis on September 26, 2018, 08:30:05 amBigClive can talk about it I can make silent movie, for me is speaking part problem

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 09:35:56 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 26, 2018, 08:32:57 amBased on the proportion of comments and personal experience (as well as opinion polls and the like), i think they are. They might be a bigger minority than one would like, but definitely a minority.Quote from: Miyuki on September 26, 2018, 08:58:08 amI hate being on camera/being recorded as well so I don't have any good advice. I remember Dave got some abusive comments about his voice/accent in the beginning, but somehow he managed to continue and kept making great content anyway. I guess you have to have thick skin.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 01:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 26, 2018, 06:07:27 amMakes it easier for the guys trying to find girls willing to work together on projects.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 02:08:02 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 25, 2018, 06:26:57 amIt is not only "engineering" but other nerdy stuff like science or math.With some exceptions of course. Visiting a Bulgarian factory, I met a young lady, reasonably good looking, which also was quite good at math.Over lunch, she recommended me to read a book: "Against the Gods, The remarkable history of Risk", which is a mathematical history book. Which I still have.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 02:11:55 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 26, 2018, 01:38:15 pmAnd thats important because ?(Maybe easier to just use a dating site ?)I simply don't understand the focus on this, we are engineers for gods sake, why is gender so important

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 02:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: juan_ee on September 26, 2018, 05:41:44 amAnd doing its manufacturing not only in the US, but in New York City, of all places!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 04:33:15 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on September 26, 2018, 02:11:55 pmActually dating sites are a waste of time for nerds

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 04:43:21 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 26, 2018, 04:33:15 pmThen its good I found my wife 37 years ago when we were at the same school (at age 15)Anyway, I don't understand why there is such a focus on gender in electronics (apart from connectors....)

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 04:48:04 pm
content: "(apart from connectors....)"I don't remember whether it was on this blog or other EE blogs which I also frequent, in which there was a heated discussion whether to eliminate the male and female designation from connectors, and just refer to them as plug or receptacle.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 04:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on September 26, 2018, 04:48:04 pmThere was something like that here. For the record it's plug and socket and male and female pins, of course there are the bisexuals like the Anderson power connectors

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 05:26:53 pm
content: Worse than that there are "sexless" connectors, e.g. coaxial one APC 7

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 05:54:03 pm
content: what are you gonna do about bananas?male banana(this might be the worst one ever)plug bananabanana pinbanana receptaclebanana 'socket''banana 'there is nothing you can do with banana that wont make you grinface it electronics is a dirty game, your connecting electrodes to bananas to test master slave systems

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 06:05:29 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 26, 2018, 05:54:03 pmI was referring to the slightly more refined connectors. Bananas don't have a shellso the plug socket thing is not a thing and you can use plug for male and socket for female if you want.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 06:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 26, 2018, 06:05:29 pmmultimeter bananas have one kinda

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 06:33:26 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 26, 2018, 04:33:15 pmI found my partner on one ~8 years ago, and numerous shorter term things in the past. Personally I found them to be great because I'm not really into the bar thing, I work in a heavily male dominated field, and not too many of my day to day activities place me in proximity of eligible females.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 07:12:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 26, 2018, 06:25:53 pmuncircumcised male banana

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 08:03:20 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on September 26, 2018, 07:12:40 pmYou meanone of these?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 08:12:27 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 26, 2018, 08:03:20 pmyep, the multimeter types usually can't retract the foreskin

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 08:14:28 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on September 26, 2018, 08:03:20 pmHoly fuck you have triggered me. I think your microaggression is amplified by you excluding theblack uncircumcised male banana plug. Do you not know that red lives are toxic masculinity, and black lives matter?

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 09:11:33 pm
content: Probably already mentioned in this thread by other users but... I don't really care who/what does the video as long as it is good quality, educational, creative, well-spoken and I can learn something. If people want to mix electronics and being titillated there are plenty of videos out there to watch... such as SexyCyborg and CodeBabes. Personally I find it more of a distraction, and I find it exploitative and sad that many of such videos/bloggers with questionable educational value end up getting millions more subscribers and video views based on the amount of skin they show, or the thumbnail "click-bait" they use, than the content of their material. Imagine if Dave had to do his videos topless and in a Speedo to gain viewership (actually better not)...I also don't feel the need to "force" some kind of equality in the contribution of material from either sex. Whoever wants to contribute will, regardless of their gender. Anyone can upload a video to YouTube and ideally should be judged and rated and gain subscribers based on what they can contribute educationally and creatively. Why not let things sort themselves out.... the genders being equally provided with opportunities to learn and work in the electronic fields, so that in the future it will result in more balanced content as a result.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 10:05:22 pm
content: Lets meet here in 20 years and you will see the proportion of genders in EE has not changed. You can't beat the laws of Nature.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2018, 02:32:42 am
content: Quote from: cgroen on September 26, 2018, 02:11:55 pmYou somehow missed all the instances of engineers trying to hide their latest purchase from their wives who do not see the value of nice tools and whatnot? I suppose getting a girl who is also into the hobby has the problem of having to fight over tools that are too expensive or too rare to simply buy another one. Just getting them to accept the value of engineering doesn't have that problem and should be far easier than getting them to actively spend time on it.Quote from: edy on September 26, 2018, 09:11:33 pmI'm really liking one of the projects Sarah Petkus is working on - think combining the way Naomi Wu shows off her appearance with the way Micah Elizabeth Scott shows off her advanced engineering skills. Interesting because when Naomi Wu was getting into the spotlight, she was known for being more skilled than other "show off" girls on TV, although she still left the bar set low. I expect something of a repeat with Sarah Petkus, but this time the bar would be set really high.There seems to be an inherent bias against advanced projects in that the work easily stretches into months - as opposed to simple projects that can be cranked out at a rate of several per month. Therefore I doubt those are likely to help creators get the most views.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2018, 04:17:39 am
content: I’m sure there were thousands of ladies willing, and just waiting to be invited by the OP

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2018, 01:57:04 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 25, 2018, 06:26:57 amYeah and I do this as a hobby, I don't think I could go down to the EE dept. at the local university without having to fight all the other guys off first

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2018, 06:54:19 am
content: Been sitting here thinking about this and I think this is possibly a cultural issue. In the IT trade, unfortunately my main income, here in the U.K. its the same with software people. Perhaps 20:1 ratio. However if you look at the Indian and Eastern European outsourcers the ratio is actually pretty close to 2:1.Now on the university front there was one female in my entire EE degree and she had to put up with a lot of shit.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2018, 10:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on September 26, 2018, 08:19:36 amHere's something I haven't seen in 20+ years of work on the electronics industry (and part of them in Brasil, where these lines are much more blurred). Sure, on an auto shop that was certainly the case. Not on the multinational I worked and on the numerous electronics/consumer/telecom/whatever companies I visited as part of my job. It is anecdoctal, but it was certainly not pervasive by any means.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2018, 10:43:21 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on September 26, 2018, 08:19:36 amMany of the women I know professionally partake in lewd behaviour as much as the guys. They aren't easily scared wildlife that should be protected.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2018, 01:40:35 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 30, 2018, 10:43:21 pmThat's certainly the case where I am now. Many of the women on the team are at least as crude as the guys. It really depends on the group.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2018, 07:44:42 am
content: Relevant,(Not that this is unexpected given prior mention in this thread)Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2018, 09:34:15 am
content: i personally want to work with an android like bishop instead of more humans

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2018, 11:14:13 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on October 01, 2018, 09:34:15 amThis made me laugh because it lines up 100% with my thoughts on the matter.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2018, 03:44:19 pm
content: https://youtu.be/gmzc1HwaeeM?t=11Tim

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2018, 10:51:33 pm
content: I'm not so surehttps://youtu.be/RJ7E7Qp-s-8

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2018, 11:13:54 pm
content: thats the 1.0, davids the windows ME rushed version

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 12:42:13 am
content: Robot girls (and guys)? Nice until the year 2038 bug strikes and they go berserk.Something I find odd about that game world is the lack of robot pets. Maybe that's old and outdated so nobody wants it...

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 12:08:22 am
content: Has someone posted this girl?https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRCFFTRNzbAAONw9vQ3lXdg/videos

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 12:25:45 am
content: "Women" works better for me than "girls" irregardless of age.Probably the main reason there are far fewer women than men in some tech disciplines is what to them often amounts to a hostile environment.It varies a lot from one place to another. At one point I thought it was going away but it seems the last few years have seen a reversal of that trend in some areas.Technically, women are likely the equal of men. A great many of the first computer programmers were women. Estrogen may even offer some advantages over testosterone.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 01:10:42 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on November 02, 2018, 12:08:22 amI didn't post but mentioned their channel (hers and her partner) on reply 11.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 06:08:24 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 02, 2018, 12:25:45 amI've spent my whole career in tech and I just haven't seen this hostility. That's not to say it isn't out there but I don't think it's anywhere near as common as some claim it to be. I have little doubt that women are on average at least as if not more capable than men at technical jobs but few seem to have much interest in it. My partner for example is fantastic at seeing how things fit together, kicks my butt at nearly every game we ever play, she's very skilled at sewing together intricate quilts that require a great deal of dexterity. She's also a math wiz and took calculus her senior year in highschool. I think she'd be great at laying out PCBs and I've tried a few times to get her interested but she's just not. My friend's wife is similar, she has an advanced degree in chemical engineering and worked in tech for years but left a few years ago to teach, not because work was hostile but because she wanted to teach.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 02:43:37 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 02, 2018, 12:25:45 amLike James_S said, I've worked my entire career and have almost never seen this.QuoteNo doubt, but it's not as wide spread as people make out. If anything women can haveadvantagesin the field than mendon'tget.QuoteNo one has said they aren't.The "issue" is why aren't there there more women in tech, and many people just don't want to accept the fact that the research shows that women have a lower natural interest in it, and there is nothing wrong with that.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 10:18:40 am
content: Here is just one stat sample: in my college class (CS mind you, not EE) the male-to-female ratio is 2 to 1, and quite a few girls are more artists than engineers. For the class of my roommate (who was EE) the ratio is 1 female to 15 males.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2018, 08:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 03, 2018, 02:43:37 amWell, some people think you should just "grab 'em by the pussy" apparently. Wasn't an engineer that said it though.