RANT: People calling themselves engineers. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2012, 11:56:56 pm
content: I've noticed there is a new trend now to call yourself an "engineer" even though there is no real education+experience behind it, and to a lesser extent people use their engineering degree as a blanket across several fields. Having an oscilloscope at home and knowing how to solder doesn't make you an engineer. Being an electronics repair tech does not mean you are an engineer. Having a mechanical engineering degree does not mean you are an electrical engineer. You just look like a pathetic asshole when you misrepresent yourself on various websites and give interviews. I won't point fingers but there are members on this forum who did this (Don't worry, it's not Dave). You look like 15 years old script kiddies that call themselves hackers. Chris Tarnovsky is a real hacker, and even he doesn't refer to himself as such. Jim Williams was a real engineer, and he never flaunted it. Unless you have a proper degree, from an accredited 5+ year university and not a shitty rural 2-year accelerated evening college with online courses, published works and a ton of experience please, for the love of FSM and all that is holy, don't refer to yourself as an engineer. You might be a great electronics tech and DIYer, but you ain't an engineer.EDIT: Since this has many people worked up: All I ask is that you don't call yourself engineers if you got nothing to show for it. Is that so damn hard to grasp? Do you really believe that every electronics geek with an arduino and some community college is justified to go around and refer to himself as electronics engineer? Seriously? How is that elitist? By your logic, everyone with a hacksaw is a plumber.Regarding Jim Williams: yes I'm aware he had no engineering degree. He didn't go around calling himself an engineer in his MIT days like the butthurt people in this thread, did he? That was exactly my point!At what point does one become an engineer? Do you set your own bar?All I ask for is PLEASE, don't proactively tell anyone you are an engineer if you are not. I'm sorry if this conflicts with your warped reality.EDIT2: Clarification: I'm not saying that years of experience and published works is meaningless if you don't have a piece of paper. I'm stating:1. Please don't proactively TELL people you are an engineer just because you do electronics.2. Performing series of successful surgeries on animals does not automatically make you a veterinarian.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 12:06:09 am
content: There was already a thread like this, but I can't seem to find it.Anyway, be an elitist dickhead if you like, but don't expect everyone to agree. I personally think that ability has little to do with formal education, and much more to do with the person's interest.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 12:15:47 am
content: I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, but if I was working along side an unqualified person who was doing the same work, I would call him or her an engineer. If they are employed as an engineer, they are an engineer. My father became president of the Institute of Chartered Accounts here in Australia and he was very involved in establishing the academic qualifications and standards for chartered accountants. For a while, he worked with the Tax Department and made rulings in Tax law, which often meant setting legal precedents. He had no university degree.Who cares about the bit of paper? It doesn't mean much. Most of the learning is done on the job anyway.Richard

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 12:26:39 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 19, 2012, 12:15:47 amThat'd be the elitist dickheads mentioned previously.QuoteThe distinction being your colleague is not a qualified engineer. A distinction that seldom matters to anyone other than the afore mentioned elitist dickheads.Regurgitated topic. Not much more need be said.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 12:30:29 am
content: At the end of the day you judge people by their abilities. For instance, I may not know about Richard (amspire)'s qualifications, but I do find he seems to know what he's talking about. Which means I inherently put more trust in what he writes than I might with other posters (not meaning anyone in particular, btw).

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 01:03:08 am
content: I have met engineers with balls the size of Australia with out any kind of degree (as far the degree part).As his name came up, what degree Jim Williams had?Alexander.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 01:06:44 am
content: It would seem Jim Williams was self-taught.http://www.linear.com/williams.phpJust goes to show...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 01:20:05 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 19, 2012, 12:55:29 amCommitment yes. Financial is debatable and purely dependant on circumstance.For some the cost of a degree doesn't even make a dent in Daddy's petty cash. Sacrifice? What friggin sacrifice? It's a career choice, if you want to be a cowboy you learn to shoot and ride a horse, want to be a copter pilot it helps to learn attain a pilots licence.QuoteYes to the same degree a poorly educated cleaner deserves respect for working awful hours for pittance wages to feed his family. Students are studying degrees for their own future advantage, good on them, where does this "swoon look he has a degree" evolve from?QuoteAgreed, a pity it's all too often assumed by the holder to be a certificate of attainment of all knowledge. A qualification is a great thing to have, but it is far from the only way to achieve excellence or competence in engineering or any field.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 01:29:49 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 18, 2012, 11:56:56 pmQuote from: 8086 on January 19, 2012, 01:06:44 amThis is really embarassing.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 01:34:57 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 19, 2012, 12:55:29 amThat is true, and the fact that someone has done a 3 or 4 year course to get the degree does mean something.But I also remember from when I was at Uni that the compulsory part of the course in say electronic design were really pretty basic, and if a qualified engineer chose all the computing and microcontroller type electives in the later years, then it is possible that they may have a life time experience of less then a hundred hours total on bench with a circuit, oscilloscope, DMM and soldering iron.They may know less about practical electronic design then a keen 16 year old who loves building electronic projects.Richard.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 01:44:23 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 19, 2012, 01:34:57 amIt's people like you Richard that I look up to. Sure I'm still a student, but I feel as though my passion and willingness to pay for everything with my hard earned money even though I make very very little to further my own understanding of my career choice is what sets me apart from most of the people in my class. They see it as a job or something that'll make them money but rarely do I hear of them going so far as to buy their own oscilloscopes or buying their own books to read in their past times. I do this because I love it and whether or not I pursue higher education in the field is a moot point to me.I just hope I can achieve half the knowledge that you, Dave, and others on these forums have. I try my best. I build, I fail, I move on and keep going. Thanks for being open minded and not being elitest. You too Uncle Vernon, my hats off to all of you.Armin

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 02:08:23 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 12:26:39 amTHere is another elitist dickhead level beyond that. Those who look down if you aren't a registered member of some engineering institution, and/or didn't go to therightuniversity (common in the US).Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 02:12:48 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 18, 2012, 11:56:56 pmObviously you haven't heard, Jim Williams did not have any formal qualifications in the fieldDave.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 02:26:14 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 19, 2012, 01:29:49 amDon't kid yourself. Jim Williams spent 10-11 years (depending on your source) teaching and performing research at MIT. Reference contributors section inthisorthis. Besides, there isn't a single person on this forum who's even remotely comparable to Jim Williams.Quote from: amspire on January 19, 2012, 01:34:57 amTo clarify a few points, 3-4 years to complete an engineering degree is exceptional performance; a proper EE degree is a 4-5.5 year affair as far as U.S. universities with ABET accreditation are concerned. I've read that in other countries, it's against the law to refer to oneself as an engineer without having completed rigorous formalities--a protected professional title in the same manner as Professor and Doctor.One of my professors once went on a mid-lecture corporate culture rant about his internship experience at IBM as a grad student. He summarily concluded with something like, "I didn't go through 5 years of pain and suffering to earn an engineering degree only to work for a company where business majors and janitors are endowed with the same title." It's a rite of passage that isn't easily achieved.Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 01:20:05 amI suspect you've never been through a proper engineering curriculum. Normal 16+ hour days of study and working on projects. Missing out on football games and student life semester after semester after semester just so you don't fall behind. Breaking into the locked engineering building on weekends to use equipment while your non-engineering friends are partying. Sleeping in the lab. There's a reason why engineering has less than a minority presence amongst Greek student life. There's a reason why the engineering building parking lot is always packed on weekends and holidays (even when the building is locked down) while the rest of campus is barren. Yes, it's a career choice and yes, we love what we do, but you are in no position to say that sacrifices aren't made.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 02:33:20 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 02:26:14 amSo what you are saying is that he was really, really good. Good enough to teach and contribute to research projects. All without any formal engineering qualifications.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 02:41:30 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 19, 2012, 01:06:44 amIs it so surprising that people can 'teach' themselves? Especially now there is such a vast amount of readily available information on the internet.I quit half way through a 4 year degree because too much of what I was being taught was crap. I got a two year head start on my classmates doing stuff instead of being taught about it, and I got paid for it. Sadly today being allowed to 'do' without formal qualification is harder.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 02:46:03 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on January 19, 2012, 02:41:30 amIt's absolutely no surprise. I have some formal higher education in EE myself, but I am taking a break from my degree to do some stuff on my own, gain some business knowledge, and get down and dirty with electronics. All things that for some reason seem to be missing from the degree. I realised pretty early on that doing the degree is not just for me, it's for other people to judge me, and I don't like that one bit.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 02:51:48 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 19, 2012, 02:33:20 amI guess it is, other wise it will become moot point.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 02:52:07 am
content: One thing that I didn't understand at the time was something my teacher told me:"You don't become an architect before 40 - not enough hours in a day."How right he was...

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 03:01:30 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 02:26:14 amI just don't care less about the fact that someone went through "5 years of pain". That is his problem. If someone is capable, then I admire them. If a janitor with no degree is the most capable engineer, then he deserves to be promoted over the top of less capable qualified people.Anyway, I just don't believe word this "Professor" is saying. His 5 years of undergraduate study were all "pain and suffering". And he is still at the university? Either he really had a ball for five years and loved it.Or he is some sort of weird masochist, and we can only hope he gets better soon.Richard

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 03:12:25 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 02:26:14 amThen you aren't being much of an engineer. A good engineer deals in facts and not suspicions. You can surmise all you wish about mine or anyone Else's skills, education and sacrifice. What basis to you have to suggest the pathway you have taken involved more/less sacrifices than any other person.QuoteOh poor you! Your struggle is somehow more than that of some enthusiast working two rubbish jobs to support a certificate qualification? Your struggle far more important than that of the enthusiast going it alone and trying to educate themself while supporting a family? Your struggle is greater than those who throw their very existence into an engineering based business putting their homes on the line, to guarantee wages for the technicians, tradesmen and engineers they employ? Is four to five years of effort supposed to cover a lifetime in the workforce? Take your hand of it!QuoteStudying, business, law, medicine, etc pays more, studying exercise physiology gets more girls? Studying engineering is far more likely to have you associated with perpetual time wasters, alcoholics and dropkicks the discipline unfortunately also attracts.Quoteperhaps it is indication that the curriculum is lacking in the practical skills needed to maintain a typical ageing student motor car in a running condition.QuoteWhat is it, that puts you in a position that says your sacrifice is any greater than that of so many others? If you love it so much, is it how can it equate with the sacrifice of the enthusiast who works a job he hates to fund his hobby or the quest for entry into an industry they aspire to?Remember not everyone had the same path or opportunity to a tertiary qualification you did? Think of that next time you want to bang on about sacrifice!QuoteYes and that is thanks to people in those institutions who did not have an elitist boys club mentality. Engineering and education professionals who could recognise talent, skill and ability. If it was left up to the "we deserve respect set", much of the brilliance of Mr Williams would never have been shared throughout the community and industry. How do you know there is no one comparable to Mr Williams on this forum, are you a qualified psychic and and an engineer? Hell there are a lot of better qualified people here if that's the yardstick.If you look at one of the greatest and most respected attributes of Mr Williams it was his skill to explain complex circuits in a simple and readily understood manner, something those hung up getting respect could never hope to emulate.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 03:28:00 am
content: Hahaha, I like all the wannabe RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGEEEEE! Look at all the self-appointed engineers coming out of the woodwork.First of all, I'm not an engineer (yet), so calling me "elitist" is dumb. My point is that getting a degree is a lot of hard work and sacrifice. I have a lot of respect for people who went thru the guts of the educational system. The point I made about "real" schools is that these days you can literally buy a degree and it means fuck all. I agree with the point that Dave made about belonging to a particular association - it's meaningless. As for the "right" school - an accredited school with history is good enough. I never said you MUST go to MIT or degree is not valid. But if you do the online evening classes - come the fuck on! Do you really believe your education is just as good?You know what you all naysayers sound like? Like people who want to be medical doctors without proper education. Remember that defibrillator Mike took apart? Would you prefer to be revived with the one built by a person with years of education from a university, hundreds published works and experience or a guy who bought a bunch of shit from Sparkfun and goes around calling himself an engineer?Regarding Jim Williams: He didn't call himself an engineer in his MIT days like the self-appointed losers here, now did he?QuoteLast time I checked, none of the self-appointed engineers who gave interviews on eeweb and other sites have next to none published works and are less than obscure in the large scheme of things.Chill out people. All I said is that every second charlatan is an engineer these days. Sorry I hurt your egos.

author: ronwoch
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 03:34:34 am
content: Hmmmm. All the talk of sacrifice makes me cringe. Try being a proffesional soldier. My hobby on the weekends is to make leds blink. Or occasionally smoke. Either way, I am by no means an "engineer" nor do I think I will ever achieve that level. I deeply respect those with that level of skill and knowledge, and do my best to learn from them. What piece of paper they have with their name on it, nor what they did to earn it, matters not one bit to me.My job is to protect my friends and family. I get paid for it, some say too much, some say not enough. I also risk my life for it. Not as little nor as often as people think. It is part of what I do and I accept it.When people come up and thank me for what I do, it makes me uncomfortable. I do what I do for my own reasons, some selfish, some not. But not for 'recognition' or anyone else's reasons.I certainly respect those who are better than me at something. I find it mind-boggling though, that someone would demand respect for having a sheet of parchment with their name on it. I have far too many officers who think that way, and in the end, their four years at a service acadamy, and their degrees in architecture to engineering to basket weaving still do nothing to make them as good a soldier as me, an NCO with nearly a decade of experience. But I respect their knowledge in things I don't know, and do my best to learn from them, as I hope they are able to learn from me.In the end, the only thing that matters is what a person is like, what they can contribute, are they willing to share what they know to make the world a better place? Or are they simply seeking 'recognition' for having their name on a piece of paper?/rant

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 03:37:05 am
content: Wartex. It seems to me that you aspire to be one of these elitist engineer types you speak of in future.Perhaps it is not our egos you need worry about, but your own?

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 03:53:46 am
content: Fellas, don't forget to think about liability and lawsuits.Say you have a sharp self taught employee. The company is so impressed with him or her they give him the engineer title. The company let him or her work on the radiation dosing module of that big nuclear medicine cure-o-matic contract they just won. A bunch of patients develop cancer due to radiation overdose. They lawyer up and sue. They find out the guy or gal that designed the dosing module did not even go to college. Damages sought quintuples bankrupting the company. Your guy or gal can't even claim he was following best practices because, as a non-member of any relevant "societies" and "associations", how would he or she know what they are? What credible member of such organization would vouch for a non-members credentials?There is a reason formal education is important. There is a reason professional organizations exists.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 03:59:03 am
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on January 19, 2012, 02:52:07 amAs I pointed out in the other thread, 10k hours of practice seems to be the magic number.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:04:29 am
content: Quote from: ronwoch on January 19, 2012, 03:34:34 amWould you jumped in afox holefighting position with some one who never completed BRM? They say they have, but they don't a have piece of paper saying so. How confident can you be with the guy or gal.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:08:53 am
content: one of the absolute best engineers I know - has no formal EE education - but has built some of the best PC motherboards ever. My old company had 3 of his "server's" running our ISP parts DNS - and the PC's never died - while HP, DELL & Fujitsu servers died around them - they just kept running. Total running time 11 years without a hitch.I met him during my Education - where he was building some of the first Arcnet ISA cards with the company I worked for. His desk at work (and floor at home) used to look like a Jim Williams desk... Most of the student PHD's and EE's always went to him for solutions to the "hardest" problems.Today Soeren owns / runs Soekris engineering - which are known for some of the most stable "embedded" pc designs for router/firewall etc.You can learn basic engineering at University. But you do not become a great EE unless it is your passion. And if Electronics is you passion - you are usually 2 years ahead of your classmates without the passion. I rather have a great self-taught EE with passion in my company than a lousy University degree holder without passion.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:13:31 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 03:53:46 amWhat does this have to do with anything? You don't take medical equipment from design to distribution just like that.You also don't learn very many best practices (if any at all) in university, that's something you learn while doing a job.However, having said all this, your post is a straw man. Not all engineers work on such equipment. I very much doubt that the company could be sued on the basis that one of the engineers hadn't been to university, either.Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 04:07:54 amYou may limit yourself in that way if you wish, but I suspect you are attempting to protect what you're working for. After all, your ego can't have a field day if you graduate if you just let those without degrees be equals, can it?Your profile says you're 30 years old, is it common for this age group to be so insolent?

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:16:10 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 19, 2012, 04:08:53 amSo this is your criteria for bestowing the engineer title, a messy desk and floor?

author: ronwoch
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:26:24 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 04:04:29 amNo, I would first take them to the range and see how they shoot. With or without the paper. I give a shit what someone claims to have done in basic training. Basic training is just that- Basic. MY job as a Non-Commisioned Officer is to ENSURE that the soldiers under me are ready to go to war.No matter how much time they have, experience, credentials, courses, or NONE, they ALL have to prove to me that they can cut it. Or be willing to learn how.I would expect that an engineering job be roughly the same. If I were the new guy, it matters not what college my degree is from, what fancy certificates I have, or don't have, I still have to prove that I am capapble of doing the job I have been hired for, do I not?

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:33:46 am
content: QuoteI'm not trying to protect anything. I'm not even in school now. Your argument is a classic straw man and I'm not falling for it. I ask people to be humble and not flaunt their undeserved name, that is all I ask. If you can't get that, my condolences.QuoteSeriously? The age card? What's next, "yo mama" jokes? Is it common for your age group to have no modesty and humbleness?

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:34:37 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 03:53:46 amThat is only true in the US where the legal system is completely screwed by greedy lawyers anyway. The rest of the world do not have the liability rules of the US. Non of my companies liability insurances says I have to employ only people with a degree.Anyway - for medical engineering you usually both have engineers and doctors working side by side on the equipment - and the equipment does not go out to anyone before it has been checked and approved by a something like the FDC.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:36:31 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 04:16:10 amNo my little troll - you are out to pick a fight are you not?

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:36:56 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 04:16:10 amAccording to all the rage posts before, it is. The worst part, is they go around and TELL people they are engineers.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:43:07 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 03:28:00 amYou know your options! The exit doors are call clearly marked if you see yourself as a little to special for the community here.QuoteDo you understand the concept of mutual exclusion? Being an elitist knob has no absolute relationship with any attained qualification.QuoteRelative to what, Paris Hilton probably sees batting her eyelids as hard work. Hard work for a wet behind the ears student with free board and lodging may be a doddle compared to the sacrifice and effort others have to make in pursuing their careers. What position are you in to judge. How many engineering related positions have you held, how would you cope in the circumstances others have needed to endure in their pursuit of an ideal career.QuoteThat's where we differ, I have respect for those who have learnt and can apply attributes other than arrogance as a result of their path through higher tertiary education. Clearly it's possible for some to traverse that path and achieve nothing but a false sense of elitism for their efforts.QuoteThat is not the point you made in opening this thread! Your point was clearly to deride the attribution of the term engineer to anyone other than those who had the privilege of studying in your so called real schools. A certificate engineer is qualified engineer, any person able to competently do the work of an engineer is an engineer, albeit an unqualified one.QuoteNo you've missed his point entirely. The fact the parameters of your elitism differ from some other set, does nothing to dismiss it's ignorance.QuoteAs a student you see yourself positioned to judge the effectiveness of all methods of attaining education. Clearly employers end others in the industry have a very different outlook on the abilities of current and prospective engineers. Are you saying much of the industry is clueless and need the wartex insight?QuotePerhaps he chose to judge himself and others around him by other than some elitist handle. But again you have revised the topic to avid the glaring error in your initial assertion. JW attained never undertook your mandatory hard slog to attain his education or reputation. He achieved widespread respect as an engineer, developer and educator, yet by your parameters he should be seen as a charlatan.QuoteLast you checked? Did you check this as accurately as you check the credentials of the late Jim Williams? Where does self appointment come into it? What is that criteria for their selection of an eeweb interview? And of course when we see the interview from "wartex - elitist and student. esq" we will see a substantive reference to your published material? What the hell right do you have to criticise those selected?QuoteIf you want chill perhaps you think of this before pressing send on some elitist bollocks.QuoteNo you said something entirely different! You derided the abilities of many skilled and working engineers with some clueless and elitist crap. You've derided rural colleges that for some are the only opportunity to seek out their derided career, you've dismissed the abilities of driven and self taught individuals. What the hell kind of reaction were you expecting?

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:44:52 am
content: I think the right way to approach the Engineer vs "University Engineer" - is to ADD something to the title of those engineers who has a university degree. .. ohh - that has already been done...

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:45:11 am
content: Quote from: ronwoch on January 19, 2012, 04:26:24 amI agree, so tell me this, is it OK if someone with basic training and 2 years on the base in Europe to go around and TELL people they are a hardcore war veteran and do interviews for newspapers and TV shows? Because this is exactly what these people are doing.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:46:25 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 04:33:46 amI wouldn't call use of the word engineer to describe someone who designs electronic circuits "flaunting" it. It's merely using a word that best describes what they're doing.If there were any "yo mama" jokes, I would expect them to come from you. I expect better from someone with 30 years experience of life and people. You were being insolent, but who says I don't have modesty or humility?I still maintain that you're thinking of your future self by taking this view. Your definition of a person who deserves the title fits what you have planned in your future, no doubt.I will admit, I used to have a stance similar to yours. What changed my mind is that I went to college (I think you may call it community college, but Im not sure; that may be underselling it) and university. At college, I met people who are good engineers and have been working for years in industry and only now have taken it upon themselves to get qualifications on paper. At university most of the students were absolutely clueless. It wasn't hard to see who were the better engineers.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:47:51 am
content: Quote from: ronwoch on January 19, 2012, 03:34:34 amFor the record, I'm a SSgt with 10 years combined active duty and national guard service. The formalities and engineer title beef isn't about demanding respect just because one holds a piece of parchment. It's about the disrespect towards professionals who didn't take the path of least resistance and have paid their dues. It's not the kind of disrespect you get when you walk into a gas station in a liberal town while in uniform and get called a baby killer by some punk ass civilian who doesn't have clue about duty. It's the kind of disrespect that guys like us see when we encounter ass clowns likethis guyorthis guyorthis guymaking a fool of our rite of passage.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:01:24 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 04:47:51 amThat is PRECISELY what I'm talking about. Every dipshit with a soldering iron calls himself an engineer these days. It cheapens the title "engineer". And thanks for the word I was looking for: POSERS. That's right, a bunch of people who gave interviews on eeweb are POSERS.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:09:27 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 19, 2012, 04:34:37 amThat's probably because the rest of the world don't feel any obligation and responsibility when the crap they "engineer" hurt somebody.QuoteSo I guess its okay to call oneself and engineer so long as your work is supervised by some one with a degree. Makes sense to me.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:11:07 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 05:01:24 amWell come on, which ones! And for that matter which members of this forum are using the title engineer without justification?You've made your claims, how about backing them up with specifics and examples! How about having your judgement placed under the the same level of scrutiny you expect to contributions of others to comply to.Put up or shut up!

author: ronwoch
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:11:23 am
content: Slateraptor, I understand your point. Fully, and agree with it. Just as I can say I would never call myself an 'engineer' neither do I think it is right for others to do so that haven't earned the right. What I disagree with the OP about is the method of earning that right. Your interpretation of things may be how he meant it- but is NOT how it came off, at all, nor do I feel I am the only one who read it to be rather snide and derisive. Certainly it would be disrespectful for me to claim a title I am un-deserving of. But just WHO makes the final say on if I deserve it or not? You know as well as I that in the military many people hold ranks and titles they have no business laying claim to- they just are not fit for the job. While others who are, suffer on the sidelines. A diploma from one school or another is not exactly proof positive. Some schools are better than others.Some very respected, known and un-known people in the electronics field, have no formal education. Others perhaps went to nothing more than a 'cow college.' Who is the OP to say that just because someone went to a community school instead of MIT that they are a 'poser'?I can understand justifiable anger at people who have no right AT ALL to the title of engineer claiming to be one. But to say that some honest, hard working people, don't deserve to be called engineers simply based on what school they went to, or possibly never went to one at all, is wrong.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:12:22 am
content: I just want to know one thing. Why are you so bent out of shape about this? You're looking rather foolish by ranting and throwing your arms around like a little kid over a word that anyone with a lick of sense could differentiate between. I mean yeah, I don't call myself an engineer, but what I do is engineering. I would never call myself a Prof. Engineer like Dave or some of the other people on these forums.. but Jesus Christ man.. let it go. You're not even a certified Engineer and you're getting all mad about it like you've been personally disrespected by it.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:15:20 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 19, 2012, 04:36:31 amYou seem very impressed with a mesy desk and floor.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:17:09 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 05:09:27 amno it was just to show how flawed your example was.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:18:14 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 05:09:42 amWhich ones! Your making lots of accusations, where is the evidence to support your claims. If the problem is a wide spread as you suggest you should be able to easily quote numerous specific examples as substantiation.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:21:07 am
content: Quote from: Armin_Balija on January 19, 2012, 05:12:22 am.That is ALL I ask. Unfortunately from the get-go it appeared as if I said that unless you have a piece of paper you are not an engineer. That's not what I meant. I meant that many people are unqualified posers.QuoteI'm upset about it because I'm working towards a point where others can think of me as an engineer (and I would never call myself one, even when I finish school), while there is a bunch of amateurs who have done less and they ALREADY go around and tell everyone they are an "engineer", without any education OR real professional experience.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:23:17 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 05:09:42 amNo? Who made that decision? The almighty Wartex? LOLQuoteWell done, it was not unexpected from you.QuoteAgain, who decides?QuoteThe fact that they had been working for years in industry is really only to indicate that they were capable without having degrees. There were also many young folk that outperformed most of the university students I met.I ask you, if you don't care about degrees, why mention it? You clearly do.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:25:33 am
content: well to stop the discussion..http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engineerEngineer is defined and originally comes from "Middle English engineour, from Anglo-French, from enginer to devise, construct, from engin"The definition does not list any universities...

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:25:57 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 05:21:07 amSo what? Do you concern yourself with stuff like that often? Seems like an awfully shitty way to live in my opinion. I mean honestly I could give a shit less about if someone thinks their life is hard or they've sacrificed. I've just undergone a double lung transplant a month ago after living with a debilitating genetic defect that left me crippled with 27% lung capacity for 22 years of my life.. but I don't go around flaunting it or telling every damn soul about (I realize the irony of putting this on a public forum but it's to make a point.) I don't downplay others' struggles and I certainly don't get mad when people are having a hard time in their life or if they say how shitty their life is. Everyone deals with things in their own way. I know how my life is and what I've gone through, if someone can learn from me awesome, but I don't get bent outta shape if someone says their life is extremely hard.Likewise for you, I'm sure you've sacrificed a lot to get where you are and you'd like to be called a Professional Engineer someday..but who cares if others are calling themselves engineers even if they're unqualified. Why is it such a big deal to you?

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:26:47 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 19, 2012, 04:13:31 amIts not a straw man. They are people in hiring positions that know nothing about "engineering". They just rely on the title being legit. So a poser can theoretically end up working in a nuclear environment (see Homer Simpson. there are real world Homer Simpsons just like there are real world Dilberts) .

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:30:09 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on January 19, 2012, 05:25:33 amThat dictionary is no doubt edited by duly degreed editors.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:33:15 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 05:26:47 amI know, but you're making it out to be some kind of important public safety concern. People will claim to be able to do things they can't really do that well, sure, but the kind of scenario you used just doesn't happen. Theory is fine but the worst that you can expect in the real world is the person will get fired at some point or the product will be poor quality in terms of it's function (again not talking about safety, there's separate external certifications for this).

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:39:44 am
content: Quote from: Armin_Balija on January 19, 2012, 05:25:57 amIt's a rant man, on the Internet, where no one really cares. I'm not losing any sleep over it trust me. I read some interviews on eeweb and other sites, and then researched the people who called themselves engineers and they turned out to be electronics amateurs, some not even working in the industry. That's all. They can call themselves heart surgeons if they want. Deep inside they know they are frauds. I'm going to spare them the embarrassment and not post their names. They know who they are.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:40:04 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 05:21:07 amWhich people? You can claim people are all jaywalkers too, it's an equally hollow and pointless claim. Unless you can cite specific examples what changes?QuoteLike those on eeweb you complain about, what do you know of what they have or have not achieved in working towards their individual quests for engineering recognition? As yet you have been unable to state which if any of the interviews there, you believe featured frauds.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:40:46 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 19, 2012, 05:33:15 amI don't know. Anything that runs on electricity automatically carries a safety concern. Maybe that's just me.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:44:47 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 05:39:44 amI think all it did was gain a generally negative impression towards you on these forums to be honest.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:47:05 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 03:28:00 amI quit half way through a degree, not because I wasn't smart enough to finish it but because I wasn't dumb enough. While my classmates were still learning about transistors I was working for Texas Instruments making them. After two years in a job and with my own study I was a much more competent engineer than I would have been walking out of university with a bit of paper. So no, going through the guts of the educational system does not automatically earn my respect I am as likely to take it as indicating lack of initiative.Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 03:28:00 amIf I wanted a guy to build a defibrillator in 4 years time, given the choice of sending him to university for 4 years or making him play with sparkfun shit for 4 years I would go with the sparkfun option and call him a guy either way.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:48:18 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 05:40:04 amI'm not naming any names. I watched their videos on youtube and read their sites, and googled their names, usernames, emails and can see they are working in either totally different industry, have no experience or misunderstand basic concepts in electronics, or have a degree in a totally different field. Most are legitimate people on there and there are some posers. I'm not commenting on this any further.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:48:42 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 05:39:44 amSo you claim! Where is your evidence?QuoteThat is not good enough! Hit & run accusations are baseless, they have no place in engineering or even in polite behavior. If you cannot backup your claims then those claims then any loss of respect is likely to be your own.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:51:18 am
content: Quote from: Armin_Balija on January 19, 2012, 05:44:47 amMy original post didn't come out right unfortunately, but I don't really care. Most people who complained where up in that self-congratulating group anyway.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:51:26 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 04:43:07 amActually, it could be argued that if you are "unqualified" and you are accepted and hired by an organisation to perform an engineering task (and have subsequently proven yourself capable of doing so), then you are now "qualified" to do that job, by way of your peers at the engineering company.It can actually be argued that the "most qualified" on paper are just as unqualified for any particular position as anyone else who hasn't worked on the required stuff before. You are accepted and proven into any position actually doing the work. The main difference with someone with better formal paper qualifications perhaps "potential" to handle a given task better. That potential though does not necessarily translate into good professional engineering work. Top formal qualifications and the ability and aptitude to do any particular engineering can be mutually exclusive.Let's say you have Mr Honors Phd MIT on one hand with 20 yeas designing farting novelty toys, but with no experience at all in designing say implantable medical devices, up against someone with no formal qualifications but who's been designing just such devices for 20 years, is widely regarded as an expert in the that industry, has stuff published, many successful and proven designs in the market etc. Who's the more "qualified" for the position of designing those implantable medical devices? Any sensible company would say the later.You could be the best ever graduate with an honors degree, masters, Phd and university medal from MIT or wherever, but that doesn't necessarily make you technically any more practically "qualified" to perform any particular job.Dave.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:51:45 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 19, 2012, 05:33:15 am*cough*I personally know a 13-year veterantechniciancurrently employed in a lucrative 6-digit defense contract engineering position who has admitted to me in private that he can contribute almost nothing at this stage of the project. If the project involved safety-of-flight, I'd take it upon myself to ensure him relieved of his position.*cough*

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:54:56 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 05:48:42 amThere is no need to name names. Surely you believe there are posers in every field and that they should stop.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:57:16 am
content: Quote from: Armin_Balija on January 19, 2012, 05:44:47 amWe ought to stray away from personal insulting and focus on constructively criticizing the idea.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:58:04 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 05:01:24 amWhat would you do if EEweb asked you to be the next featured engineer?How are the people who have been on there "posers" when they have actually done the stuff mentioned in the article, and likely were selected to appear based on that work?Dave.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 05:59:08 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 05:57:16 amWell I never said anything personally harming towards anyone on these forums as far as I know and if I have I apologize. The only reason I said that was because it was plainly obvious that Wartex and a few others had an ugly exchange of words that were nothing but ad-homonem attacks. Like I said in my previous statements, he shouldn't really care about the posers since they won't really affect him in anyway.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:05:08 am
content: Quote from: ronwoch on January 19, 2012, 05:11:23 amIt is wrong, and a lot of the industry clearly agrees. Because itiscommon in the industry for companies to hire and bestow the title of engineer on those who do not have formal engineering qualifications (or unrelated degree qualifications for that matter).Whether or not Wartex or anyone else agree's with that is irrelevant, the industry will dictate for itself how these things are decided and viewed.Dave.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:12:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 19, 2012, 05:51:26 amIt seems that everyone ignores the first part of my original post. My point was that every newbie these days call themselves engineers. A good school builds a basic foundation, and what you do with it is up to you. There are tons of EEs out there who are just terrible at math. I don't care if you designed heart implants for 20 years, I'd rather hire a green guy with strong knowledge of theory and understanding of what he is doing and retrain him than hire a nerd who has developed a toolkit for a very narrow field with a very narrow specialization. When your guy with 20 years of heart transplant development loses his job or hits a technology change, he is fucked.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:13:14 am
content: Wartex, I have deleted a couple of your posts that included personal attacks or name calling. This will not be tolerated here, please don't do it again.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:19:31 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 06:12:19 amShame that's not how a lot of the industry works. You might come to learn this when you have more experience in the industry.You might even find yourself on an interview panel where you will have to bite your tongue when they decide to ignore what you think and hire that girl who's the specilised "unqualified" nerdQuoteA massive non sequitur if there ever was one.Dave.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:23:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 19, 2012, 05:58:04 amGood question, and while it will be very tempting, I would clearly indicate that I'm NOT an engineer and just a tinkerer. I would never call myself an engineer on my blog etc like some people do. I have won some pro gaming tournaments (with actual money prize) and had an interview with a newspaper, I refused to call myself a professional gamer and asked them not to publish my name. There are hundreds of people online who call me a "noob" and call themselves "pros" on a daily basis, even though I can rip them a new one any time.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:23:10 am
content: Everyone likes to go on an on about experience. Experience is what counts. Its all about experience. Education not so much. Yet, mountains of statistical data always reveal people with degrees in their field make more money than those who do not.Given that profit seeking employers only pay workers as they are qualified, either somebody is wrong about experience, experience experience or somebody is resentful about what somebody else is making at the workplace because both can't be right.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:25:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 19, 2012, 05:51:26 amBy that definition I am very much a qualified engineer. Personally I have aways made the distinction to ensure I was never accused of claiming I was something I was not. My employers were the ones to bestow the title engineer upon me, I just did the job it never mattered much, I have trade qualifications and some certificate engineering qualifications.I run my own engineering business, I engage and am engaged by qualified engineers to perform various works, I've worked in the industry since the late 70's, I've been employed as an engineer since completion of a trades certificate and I've seen a legion of wet behind the ears graduates try and pull rank along the way. Could explain a lot of my abrasive attitude to know alls.QuoteToo true. And while projects are best run as a dictatorship, it is surprising how often a new chum, a graduate, an apprentice or the plumbers apprentice can come up with a solution that everyone else missed. A good engineer never stops learning before he is planted in a timber box, a good engineer is one that can consider and use the input of all around him/her.QuoteAh yes, but when employers have to wade through several hundred applicants those with the experience are often at a real disadvantage against those with the formal qualifications, get to the interview stage and the tables are turned but you need to get there first.QuoteAgain I'd agree, however I'd never discourage anyone who can take advantage from them, from attaining formal qualifications. I'd had liked to have the opportunity they offer. Not everyone who follows that path picks up "the attitude" on the way through.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:32:05 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 06:23:02 amBut the section of the magazine is entitled "Featured Engineer", not "Featured Tinkerer".People might mistake you for a poser!Dave.

author: plunger
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:35:47 am
content: https://www.youtube.com/user/jeriellsworthhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_EllsworthThis girl on youtube is employed as an electrical engineer but I don't think she even got close to getting a degree. But she's one smart cookie and didn't need that paper.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 06:50:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 19, 2012, 06:05:08 amAlthough I agree that industry will dictate itself, that doesn't necessarily mean it's right either. Take for example when the financial industry decided to exploit legal loopholes and the global consequences it had. Or how about the role of nurse practitioners within the medical industry the its correlation to the drastic increase in medical malpractice lawsuits. Or the legal push for PhD clinical psychologists in gaining the authority to prescribe medication without going through proper medical school. For electronics work in non-safety related applications, I suppose the world tends to turn a blind eye. But when safety is of the utmost critical, formalities carry far more weight than you suggest. I recalla recent Spectrum podcastpointing out quite succinctly that even the commercial airline industry has become quite laxed with qualifications.I feel that in today's technologically complicated world, the days of Oliver Heaviside are long gone for anything non-trivial, of significant consequence and/or related to public safety. I suppose that's why we have minimum requirements that have to be met before one can qualify to even take the P.E. exam here in the US, which is protected by law from abuse in the same manner as the titles Doctor and Professor.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 07:07:20 am
content: Quote from: plunger on January 19, 2012, 06:35:47 amJeri is great and she's very clever. But being clever can only get you so far. You'll need todig a bit deeperthan a few YT videos. Besides, I feel that industry has used her situation as a sort of vanity tool for recruiting purposes.

author: joedevola
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 07:20:16 am
content: I work in a field where many have the job title 'engineer' without having a university engineering degree. Licenced aircraft engineers service and repair aircraft and have a professional body representing them. 'Flight engineers' used to sit in the flight deck of 747s and in earlier generation transport aircraft used to service and repair them when away from base. These people are not pretending to be university educated engineers. I would say to Wartex, the industry knows what the labels it uses to describe skills and jobs actually mean. They know what combination of skill, experience and education they require. Reserving the title 'engineer' for people with an engineering university degree would serve no useful purpose.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 07:20:27 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 06:50:23 amCompanies can and will do whatever they like depending on the weather. At my wife's firm they've just hired a HR lady to be the new 'human factors engineer'. This is legal due to the legal industrial exemption that most countries have meaning that engineers employed at companies need not be licensed.In the US however the industrial exemption does not apply to people who hang their shingle out for public business. ie if you advertise in the yellow pages as an 'engineer' you need to be licensed or you are not legal. Many non licensed have attempted to get around it by calling themselves things like 'technical consultants'.This thread is a great read for a psychology student... but based on previous threads it is unresolvable as it involves people's sense of their own value and self.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 07:43:59 am
content: There has been a fair bit of comment about "experience" in this thread,as if it is all that non-Degree technical people have to offer.Those people broadly classed as "Technicians" & "Technical Officers" usually have quite a lot of formal education in their chosen field.This is enhanced by experience ,which for a good "Tech" isn't just a "paint by numbers"--------"If this goes wrong,change that bit!"sort of thing,although this seems to be the ideal of some industries & many educational institutions."Experience" is a lot deeper than that,as analysing circuitry when chasing faults requires in-depth knowledge of theory.It doesn't go away,either.For instance,If I work on a piece of equipment made by LG,I can apply knowledge of the wayPhilips did the same thing to get a better understanding of the problem.Degree Engineers,if their Employer allows them the time,can get even better value out of experience,as they can apply their greaterdepth of theoretical knowledge to analyse what some other Engineer did,so that when they design things,they don't either make silly errors,or get bogged down in whatever design "fad" is currently popular in their University.Large Engineering organisations in Australia used to have a system where qualified Technicians could apply to become a Cadet Engineer,where they remained employed during their University Training,after graduation,being appointed as one of a number of grades of Engineer.These people were widely regarded as the best Engineers in the organisations.Unfortunately,this scheme is gone,along with the evisceration of these organisations,so a Tech with aspirations towards an Engineering Degree is pretty much on his/her own.In my last job,I had the courtesy title of Engineer,but made it known that I was really a Tech/Technical Officer."Engineer"sounded good,but ,when they came to replace me,we got numerous applications from recent Graduates,who were not capable of the job,& in any case would be wasting their time in this position.I haven't noticed anybody on "EEV Blog" calling themselves an Engineer,except those who have Degrees.If a Tech knows more than an Graduate on a certain subject,should he keep quiet & "Knuckle to his Betters"?VK6ZGO

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 08:01:10 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 06:25:38 amHaving had the privilege of being at both the technician and engineering end of the spectrum, it's been my experience that "the attitude" is just as prevalent (if not more so) amongst the former. I serve 1 weekend a month working in an avionics shop where I'm now the only technician with a formal engineering background and have received quite the share of verbal abuse. In short, senior technicians of 30 years experience aren't appreciative when young guys like me have something to say about bad habits; probably worse is that the engineer title has somehow caused them to so easily forget the 10 years experience I've put in.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 08:03:20 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 07:07:20 amWhat else is required? Postcode? Old School Tie?QuoteWhat a patronising piece of sexist nonsense!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 08:16:28 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 08:01:10 amI wouldn't disagree with that, the prevailing perception amongst light & power sparkies being that an engineer (any engineer) is a tradesman who has suffered a head industry. That is an attitude just as stupid as any graduate elitism and one probably fostered by some exposure to unwarranted elitism.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 08:37:38 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 08:16:28 amI remember sitting in the break room having my coffee when I was still in Aus and the electrical contractor coming in and just shooting off at the mouth about how crap engineers are to his apprentice. He'd only been in the building 5 minutes. Maybe its me but that 'Attitude' seemed to go through the roof when wage levels for tradesman rose and started to get near those of the engineer.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:07:10 am
content: Of course,most Techs have seen,& had to fix,any number of Engineer's stuffups,so there is some reason for the prejudice.Engineers are usually quite receptive,if you point out a problem,but they are usually in such a hurry with some new job that the fix-up ends up back with the Tech.The manufactured stuff which fails due to poor attention to such things as insufficient heatsinking of components,under rated devices,etc,were also all designed by Engineers too!In this latter case,though in many cases,the poor old EE is overruled by Management,& has to use bits which don't quite make it.One thing that is annoying with EEs,is when they assume that their Electronics qualification enables them to design mechanicalsystems as well.Some of the "Bodgy" mechanicals are quite frightening!VK6ZGO

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:12:31 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 08:03:20 amThe point I'm trying to get across is that given a problem in engineering where trial-and-error becomes unfeasible due to either the time required to find a possible sol'n within a given exploration space or limited resources making iterations developmentally prohibitive, there is no replacement for a formal education which allows you to skip all the crap and cut right to the nitty gritty. She may have done some tinkering with FPGAs, but I doubt she'd be able to contribute at a hardball company likeNallatech. She may have spun a single transistor at home, but I suspect she won't be designing ASICs at Intel any time soon. As mentioned earlier, this will hold true for any position with significant consequence and/or having to do with public safety.Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 08:03:20 amIt's a US affair as far as I can tell, but just in case you missed the memo, a few examples:http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1158223http://www.ieee.org/membership_services/membership/women/index.htmlhttp://www.swe.org/swe/regiond/sections/sefl/Templates/StatisticsonWomeninEngineering%5B1%5D.pdfhttp://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11624http://www.engineeringschools.com/women-in-engineering.htmlI'm fairly certain Chris and Dave have discussed the topic of engineer recruiting on The Amp Hour more than a few times.Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 08:16:28 amAgreed.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:17:02 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 19, 2012, 09:07:10 amAgreed. That's simple a case hubris and poor judgement, and any licensed engineer ought to know better.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:26:51 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 09:12:31 amWhy not? She currently works as a contract ASIC designer.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:43:46 am
content: The word "engineer" has kind-of evolved.As science has progressed it's no longer necessary to know everything down to the lowest level in order to work in the industry. Abstraction has created multiple skill levels from cutting edge silicon fab design to joining pre-made modules together with glue logic.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:46:34 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 06:23:10 am`to screw a bit with graduate statistics.. More than 60% of successful and lasting businesses was founded by people with NO degree. That includes some of the most well-known companies in the world. And to add to the that - an alarming degree companies founded by MBA graduates fail in the first 2 years of operation. (a much higher than average fail rate)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:53:47 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 07:07:20 amIt got her as far as being invited to give a Keynote address at the ESC conference last year. Effectively a massive industry endorsement that a "non-qualified" person can be recognised and become a very successful and respected industry figure.Dave.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:54:18 am
content: Would you call Watt an engineer or Brunel? They were both great engineers, Watt was an apprenticed clock and instrument maker before he got involved with steam. The list of such ENGINEERS throughout history is endless.What you are talking about is a PHD or doctorate and nothing to do with being an engineer qualified or otherwise, engineering is about doing or making thing's and not necessarily designing or researching things at the academic level. The Germans always use the term Dr. to refer anyone with a degree so as not to cause confusion with a person without one.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:57:52 am
content: Quote from: joelby on January 19, 2012, 09:26:51 amBecause Intel doesn't play games likethisorthis.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 10:02:17 am
content: Wartex has offered a whole lot of contradictory views about what an engineer actually is. I think this is because on any given metric, you can find strong exceptions. Jim Williams blows university educations out of the water obviously, and it can be easily repeated.I don't give a crap about what someone calls them self. It makes absolutely NO difference. Lots of engineering students march out of universities world wide thinking they're professionals, when they don't know squat. You get people who lay out massive FPGA boards, fancy themselves high speed digital designers who don't really understand any of what they're doing. If they follow all the right rules of thumb but don't understand any of the analog world they live in, does this make them a fake engineer? Or even a bad one?As the 2nd post in this thread said, old topic and not much new to say. The OP is pissed that stupid people exist. He should start the improvements with himself (not saying he is stupid) and STOP CARING what a person uses as a title. Then he can learn to dismiss all the dickhead "dilbert" managers, senior engineers, lead project designers, whatever. I find that within a few minutes of talking to someone on a technical level, it's pretty easy to see who is the poser and who isn't.Titles, whether self appointed or conferred, are always suspect.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 10:03:03 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 09:12:31 amAh, she has and does work as a contract ASIC design engineer as several reputable companies.You have little if any clue about Jeri's professional design experience, her methodologies, or abilities.Personally attacking her abilities is highly likely to make you look very foolish indeed. Nor will it gain you any respect at all, from anyone.By any chance, you aren't a tad jealous because her C64 joystick was wildly more successful than your FPGA based NES system?Dave.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 10:26:47 am
content: QuoteBullshit. OK maybe there are a few muppets out there who aren't capable of learning enough to do more than random trial and error, but they won't get far.Theory and practice are both essential for a good engineer, and by far the most important skill is the ability and willingness to learn. If you have that you can learn any theory you need as you go along. All the theory in the world won't teach you enough to build real products ia commercial environment.I don't understand why some people seem to think that a University education is the be-all and end-all. I have met many university lecturers who haven't had a job in industry for years (if ever), and couldn't design a real manufacturable product to save their lives. 4 years at collegemaygive you a reasonable start, depending on the quality of the teaching, but the same time making real products will definitely teach you enough of both theory and practice to be useful in industry.QuoteJust because you don't choose or have the opportunity) to do engineering as a job doesn't mean you are not capable of doing it. Some people choose not to do what they love as a job as it can spoil the enjoyment.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 10:42:33 am
content: A degree in engineering will protect the engineer in many ways.The nature of electronics allow people with out any degree to make great things. And there is no problem with that. I wouldn't mind a self taught in electronics to do any kind of stuf.But... There are many kinds of engineers. E.g. a structural integrity engineer, a chemical engineer bla bla bla.Alexander.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 11:19:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 19, 2012, 10:03:03 amNot at all.Like I said earlier, I think she's great. But I've seen what students pursuing a career in ASIC design have to go through at the formal graduate level, so you'll have to excuse my skepticism when she's compared to a proper ASIC engineer gainfully employed at Intel.For the record, my NES project was a 3-month solo endeavor, 1st iteration ground-up prototype indirectly motivated bythis guyand intended as a means of applying what I had learned over the years...nothing more, really. It was a bit of a why-not-spur-of-the-moment ordeal when I decided to post those pics online. Only future employers will get the opportunity to test drive the final prototype which will be finished in a few months...ok, I'll probably post it here too for shits and grins.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 19, 2012, 10:26:47 amYes, I agree: both theory and practice are essential. The comment was directed at the huge space of engineering problems with a high probability of failure or downright being untouchable for all practical purposes without a formal background (or private mentoring, if you like), in particular, the problems that necessarily rely on intricate mathematical analysis just topossiblyarrive at apotentialsol'n, e.g. RF design, MIMO control systems, control optimization, MEMS, DSP, a huge sub-set of biomedical engineering, etc.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 12:19:04 pm
content: QuoteGetting right down into the nitty gritty of a problem and spending days on advanced math and theory isn't always the best option. The deeper you go into it the more theoretical and the less real-world things get.Using experience and instinct a good engineer will often use a trial and error approach to find a problem very quickly. Experience and good instincts aren't something you can ever get from a qualification.I see a lot of people treating electronics as if it's entirely about theories and math which i think is a mistake. The theory and math form the basis for it but on top of that you need a creative mind in order to solve problems and make intuitive leaps.There's a very good reason why the book "The Art of Electronics" uses the word "Art"

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 12:43:17 pm
content: a 2 year rural engineering course allows you to call yourself an engineer. Get over it!If you have a doctorate of electrical engineering I will call you "Doctor" just like the medical clown attached to the pharmacy.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 12:47:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 19, 2012, 06:19:31 amTell that to all the COBOL, ADA and FORTRAN programmers.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 03:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 19, 2012, 11:19:21 amForgive me for simplifying, but it's just learning. It is possible to learn things without being taught in a formal setting. That is the whole purpose of an education, to help people learn for themselves and become less reliant on others. In fact, I think the ability to continually learn new subject material and further one's abilities is one of the traits we should find in a good engineer.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 04:20:42 pm
content: You really don't fire them. You simple retire them or pay them a bunch of $$ to fix your problem.Alexander.Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 12:47:38 pm

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 07:42:53 pm
content: What happened to Kiriakos? Did that guy call himself an engineer? I havent seen him around in awhile.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 07:58:55 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 19, 2012, 03:48:13 pmI know a few asic designers and all of them went through postgrad degrees. I don't think any of the major chip vendors around me would touch a non-grad. Any business with a HR department will trashcan any non-grad application straight away unless there is an explicit recommendation. Unless you are the self punishing type you'd be well advised just to get the damn bit of paper behind you. Its the ticket to play.Alot of people are mentioning people like Jim Williams in this thread as an example of some kind of elite proof. You know he was an applications engineer right? Generally a less respected and lower paid function in any chip company. There was a story that Widlar once got into a fight because he was talking about how good his op-amp was, one of the hardcore chip designers came back at him and basically said he was full of crap and what was he screwing around with opamps for when the industry was scrapping to get microprocessors and comms chips to market.George elliot once said that the world is an infinitely better place because of all the unmarked graves in the cemetary. The same is true here - there are plenty of great chip designers that have changed the world - but we will never know their names - they are not on youtube.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 08:54:17 pm
content: Today I have been working on updating a switch mode power supply which has been in production for more than a decade.Looking for a cheap more available part for the main MOSFET I check the specs of the one in the current design and discover it is a logic level MOSFET with an Abs max Vgs rating of +/-10v.The controller chip is driving its gate with 14.2V.It was designed by a BSEE, MEng, from a prestigious American university, who also taught at two other prestigious American universities (I won't name the universities because google could take you straight to him).It is medical equipment too, so who did you want designing your defibrillators again?

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:01:36 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 08:03:20 amTotally agree somebody can be self taught and that will get one somewhere. The question is who in industry is going to believe them? Who in industry is going to trust their failure is not an option mission critical big money project to some self proclaimed "engineer".You say that's what interviews are for. Well, really!? You think your interview is better at discerning the dept and breadth of electronics knowledge, skills and abilities than university curriculum or professional accreditation? That's fine I guess but as you may satisfy yourself that the candidate is good enough to be called an "engineer", that in no way shape or form mean the rest of planet should defer to your judgment. Therefore, people should not go on calling themselves an engineer without going through the "proper channels".

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 09:18:38 pm
content: In the US an engineer can be a train driver. The true or original meaning of engineer is one who builds fortification's, Look in the Dictionary the breadth of meaning for engineer is now such that I am not going to bother typing it all out here, But one thing is certain it does not mean only one who has a university education.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 10:27:23 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 09:01:36 pmAt those timesit didn't matter squat what I thought. What mattered was was what the people who were going to be writing the cheques though. As stated previously getting an interview without formal qualifications will always be an uphill battle, that part of the process is usually handled by clueless space wasters like HR managers more concerned about their own fashion impact than about any aspects relevent to their companies needs. The short list that makes it to an interview usually get to show their wares to the managers and engineers involved. A skilled and enthusiasticpractitioner will wipe the floor with all the full of attitude disinterested "respect me I have a degree" graduates in any position worth having.Get to the interview stage and in most cases, the fight for a position, becomes a fair battle.QuoteNot my judgement. I wasn't the one salivating about a business card title. It was industry, engineers and managers who bestowed the title to my cards. Given a choice, I'd have selected "Beaut Bloke & not at all Stuck Up".QuoteTell that to the industry, they know dipsticks come in both qualified and unqualified forms just like engineers. Best manager I ever worked for in a multinational had all titles removed from stationary and correspondence, the only ones bitching were the less capable graduates and sales managers.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 10:39:30 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 19, 2012, 09:18:38 pmAnd in other countries it means exactly that. I happen to live in a country where the term engineer in any variation is protected by law. Even the US protects the engineer, they just have a bunch of industrial exceptions, making the "railroad engineer" possible. But the "railroad engineer" wouldn't exist without that exemption.The key thing is, those who like to point out that everyone can call themselves an engineer are (a) typically wrong in the legal sense, and (b) have a strong desire to do so, without having completed the corresponding education and are just looking for excuses.This is then typically followed by (c) a statement that completing the corresponding education is (c.1) anyhow trivial and the self-styled engineer just didn't do it, because he/she was busy with real-world tasks, or (c.2) that one anyhow doesn't learn the real stuff in school, but only on the street.If that doesn't work, than (d) a few poster-child examples of successful developers without completed engineering education are cited as "proof" that one doesn't have to have an education to be an engineer. This is trying to argue that a few exceptions are the norm.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 10:48:18 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 19, 2012, 10:39:30 pmDoesn't apply to your exports, who consider relative sobriety, a broad accent and of the rack suits as actual engineering qualifications.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 10:59:31 pm
content: Putting a government certification requiring someone to pass a big test with known material and a huge industry of study guides behind it doesn't fully protect you from passing a crappy engineer who can really memorize stuff. A university education is similarly mostly a "pay to play" ticket, as stated above. If you're the kind of person that goes to the bottom of an article and says "Hrrmmmm haawwwww the author is from XXX, better trust this dude" even though the article is total crap, more power to you.If you can't read the content and tell whether it's bullshit or not, you had best reconsider chipping in your 2 cents on this subject.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 11:16:54 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 10:48:18 pmNa, that depends on the engineering subject. I.e. never trust a software engineer wearing a suit (rack or tailored doesn't matter) and a tie. Never trust an automotive engineer without oil under his nails. And boy am I tired of Australian engineers running around in shorts, sandals and with unshaved legs.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 11:33:04 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 19, 2012, 11:16:54 pmYour home grown engineers are all leg shavers? Explains a lot about why your motor cars were always peculiar.(Hint: lose the socks and you can tan your ankles too.)

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2012, 11:54:16 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 19, 2012, 11:33:04 pmNo, they wear real pants and grew out of shorts when they were 10 years old.QuoteLose the socks and get cold feet.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 03:33:02 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 19, 2012, 03:48:13 pmThe probability of being able to permeate texts likeJackson on Classical Electrodynamics(the graduate standard)withoutguidance from a professor who's intimately versed on the subject matter is slim to nonexistent, let alone a solo attempt with little to no formal background. At this echelon, you're not "just learning", you're mastering, which entails a significant amount of talent, dedication, sacrifice, and with the exception of a select few outlier prodigal types, guidance.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 04:27:03 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 20, 2012, 03:33:02 amWell of course you can't tackle advanced graduate texts from cold, you need to work up to that level. But I have to tell you that an undergraduate education at university is less "teaching" and more "telling". You get told what you are supposed to know, and it is down to you to learn it (by study, by tutorial exercises, by reading and re-reading textbooks). In the world of knowledge you are as a "grasshopper", lost in a forest of things way over your head. But some of it sinks in, and by the time you graduate you are not-quite-green any more and have hopefully learned how to learn. As a graduate, if you undertake graduate study, you are taught even less. You enter a world where learning is your personal challenge and people aren't going to coddle you. If after graduation you enter the world of business, then you enter a lifetime of learning just the same.As it happens, I sit "at this echelon" that you speak of and I speak from experience. I interact daily with colleagues who have PhDs and deal with advanced material at the level of that book and beyond. In fact, I sometimes take such texts from my own field as bed-time reading (I kid you not). The top of the mountain may look far away from the plains, but when you approach the top the nearby peaks become like small hills. You can't top the mountain in a single bound, but step by step you get there. Material I struggled with long ago as an undergraduate I look back on today as if it were 2 + 2. It's an adventure that's never over, and if I couldn't find new material to learn life would become very dull.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 04:57:14 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 20, 2012, 03:33:02 amAnd now you are going to tell me that the only way to gain such expertise is during a university course? The rest of the planet stops at wikipedia, do they?QuoteAnd of course every graduate has reached this dizzying above mortal engineer state, a secret society unobtainable by any other means.QuoteAm I supposed to swoon before or after reaching for the barf bag? Universal mastery at a level mere mortal could not even aspire too.QuoteAnd is something which bares out no relation to the many graduates, Whose main skill is bleating perpetually about an absence of by-the-numbers product training.No one is arguing the value of a solid education but to suggest it is the only path to expertise or to suggest that it routinely creates minds so far ahead of the pack is simply laughable.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 05:15:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 20, 2012, 04:27:03 amThen we're on the same page and you can clearly see where my skepticism arises from...mind you, Jackson is classical theory.Quote from: IanB on January 20, 2012, 04:27:03 amI beg to differ. In fact, what you've pointed out is the primary difference between trade school and a university education.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 05:33:24 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 20, 2012, 04:57:14 amI suppose you and everyone else will be willing to pay the nominal 6-figure salary of field expert, or perhaps make the same sacrifices that Heaviside had made to attain the same goals?Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 20, 2012, 04:57:14 amSo conveniently forgotten are the minds who've created the high-level abstractions that allow to speak with such naive confidence.

author: Deepak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 06:08:18 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 19, 2012, 12:47:38 pmAs a CS undergrad & grad with years of industry experience, and an electronics hobbyist, I think I'm qualified to say that you're squandering your talents pursuing EE.You sound like the model MBAer for a numerical computation shop. I mean, only longbeards like the Portland Group and the nitwits at Intel bother with antiquated technologies like Fortran.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 06:50:54 am
content: Quote from: Deepak on January 20, 2012, 06:08:18 amDeepak almost has a valid point...almost. SinceCS has spent the past few decades riding Moore's tailcoat, they're a bit behind the progression curve...or maybe your boys at the ACM are simply full of it. But the "almost" caveat comes in the form of India and China pumping out a bit more than their global "fair share" of code monkeys. Here's your clue: Despite seemingly popular belief around here, hobbyist electronics doesn't even skim the surface of EE.Quote from: Deepak on January 20, 2012, 06:08:18 amAnd don't forget those loser "scientific" types whose research stems from Monte Carlo experimentation...you know, those genome sequencing lamers.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 09:43:59 am
content: Quote from: Time on January 19, 2012, 07:42:53 pmHe got banned from the forum.Dave.

author: Robreeves
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 07:52:41 pm
content: I have an electrical engineering degree (BSEE Tufts 1971)I have a masters degree (MSIM Purdue 1985)With the exception of two years as a manufacturing engineer (factory floor stuff) and a couple of years as a business analyst, I've worked 40 odd years as a systems developer.Am I an engineer?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 08:05:14 pm
content: I am not an engineer. I was the Engineering Manager for a high tech company and signed off on hours and the work for an engineering intern.How does that fit in? The qualifications of an engineer depended on my approval of his work. Strange no? But totally correct and legal.In that job I saw many engineers fresh out of university come and go. Some were bright people, some could not design their way out of a wet paper bag.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 08:14:28 pm
content: I have 46 years of experience and an SA degree in mechanical engineering. ( SA = self appointed)I have designed and built more industrial equipment than 99% of the degreed engineers I have interviewed in my time in the industry. If you don't have the passion and God given abilities for your type of engineering, the paper does not mean a thing. There were a few outstanding engineers with papers that I have known and they all had the inclination, talents and passion for their field before they ever went to college. (like Dave)

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 08:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: Robreeves on January 20, 2012, 07:52:41 pmIf you ask me, a non-engineer, yes you are an engineer. You have an engineering degree so you are an engineer. How good you are as an engineer is another matter.And that seems to be the confusion this thread. Just because somebody's demonstrated knowledge, skills and abilities are "good enough" does not mean they can be called an engineer because the title confers aformalrecognition of said KSA. That's what titles are, formal recognition by some establish credible recognizing body like a universities or professional associations. Just because your buddy or supervisor is impressed with your power supply project is not enough.

author: Robreeves
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 08:54:24 pm
content: Thanks, but as a practical matter, with skills a few decades old, I'd be hard pressed to represent myself as an EE at a job interview. In fact, I'm here (on the eevblog, that is) precisely because I still have the interest and energy to try to catch up with the few years of progress that have passed since I had to look at this stuff seriously.I still have (I hope) an engineer's rigor, skepticism, attention to detail and general intolerance for BS, but contemporary design skills, not so much.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 08:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 20, 2012, 08:39:06 pmNo, you're wrong.That is just your interpretation.Having letters after your name shows a formal recognition of KSAs

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 09:17:05 pm
content: Quote from: Robreeves on January 20, 2012, 08:54:24 pmI see no reason to count yourself out in the ranks of engineers. Sure, you have to qualify your experience at a job interview but there is nothing wrong with that; there are all kinds of engineering specializations and varying degrees of experience desired for any given project. Same as in other fields. I don't think a dermatologist count themselves out as doctors just because they can't do neurosurgery. Or a divorce lawyer don't call themselves a lawyer because they don't know the first thing about international law.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 09:19:55 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 20, 2012, 08:59:08 pmI seriously don't see how I may be wrong. Its not an interpretation. Anyone can walk into a trophy store and buy one and have it inscribed with their name and "worlds greatest Dad". If no child ever gave that to you it means nothing. Same with professional titles.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 09:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 20, 2012, 09:19:55 pmThe point is that engineer as a title doesn't indicate ability.It would be like someone buying a trophy that just says "Dad".

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 09:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 20, 2012, 09:26:58 pmThen we are in agreement, I think. But still, don't you sense something has gone terribly wrong when you see people give themselves trophies? Give themselves titles, regardless of abilities even if clearly superior?

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 09:39:23 pm
content: I think I must have missed the point where, after getting my two degrees in engineering, they conferred the title of "engineer" onto me. I don't remember kneeling before someone in a crown made of circuit boards and components who patted a sword made of gold plated tantalum on my shoulders.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 09:42:29 pm
content: I just took this from wiki. nuff said.An engineer is a professional practitioner of engineering, concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical problems. Engineers design materials, structures, machines and systems while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, safety and cost. The word engineer is derived from the Latin roots ingeniare ("to contrive, devise") and ingenium ("cleverness").Engineers are grounded in applied sciences, and their work in research and development is distinct from the basic research focus of scientists. The work of engineers forms the link between scientific discoveries and their subsequent applications to human needsIn the United Kingdom, a Chartered Engineer is an engineer registered with Engineering Council UK (the British regulatory body for engineers). Contemporary Chartered Engineers are master's degree-qualified and have gained professional competencies through training and experience. The formation process (academic + internship / apprenticeship / graduate training + peer reviewed professional practice) of a Chartered Engineer spans 8–12 years. The title Chartered Engineer is protected by civil law but the practice of engineering has no legal restrictions in the UK. With over 180,000 registrants, it is one of the most recognizable international engineering qualifications with registrants in many countries.The next is from the engineering council web site.EligibilityThe CEng professional qualification is open to anyone who can demonstrate the required professional competences and commitment. These are set out in our professional standard, UK-SPEC, and are developed through education and working experience.The process will be more straightforward if you have particular academic qualifications, which will also allow you to obtain interim registration. For CEng these are:an accredited Bachelors degree with honours in engineering or technology, plus either an appropriate Masters degree accredited by a professional engineering institution, or appropriate further learning to Masters levelor an accredited integrated MEng degreeHowever, you can still become a Chartered Engineer if you do not have these academic qualifications. Further information about the assessment process can be found in UK-SPEC.From this it is evident that you do not need a degree to be an engineer but it helps if you want to be a chartered engineer.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 09:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 20, 2012, 08:39:06 pmSo which establish credible recognizing bodies award the title of secretary or postman?In your country (or perhaps your mind) engineer may have some special meaning but for most people in most of the world it is no more than a description like secretary or postman.Universities award specific titles such as Bachelor of Engineering, does any university award the title 'Engineer'?

author: chscholz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 10:16:16 pm
content: In the US the legal and medial business has been very successful in creating barriers for entry and establishing minimum requirements for professional practice in the field. Engineering has not been very good at that with tremendous benefits for the overall population.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2012, 10:17:55 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 20, 2012, 09:38:57 pmWell, as I see it, it's not even a trophy. It's just the best word for what a person does.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 01:01:25 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on January 20, 2012, 09:45:08 pmThey do actually, its called the 'electrical engineer' degree or EE for short. Its roughly between a masters and a phdhttp://www.eecs.mit.edu/grad/It has mostly faded away these days however and is somewhat of a rarity.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 03:32:27 am
content: So can someone with a Master of Electrical Engineering degree go around demanding people call him Master? AFAIK only a PhD gives you a proper title. Even then, most people with PhDs are absolutely trash engineers so is that really helping your case?

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 03:45:13 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on January 20, 2012, 09:45:08 pmhigh school diploma? (no disrespect to secretaries or postmans intended)QuoteIt does have a special meaning if used as title and not just as a vague job description in the same way as "duke" or "princess" are not just job descriptions (yes, those royalties do have "duties" to perform).QuoteThere is credible and justifiable basis for claiming the the title. As I said, how good they are as engineers is another matter. All it means is they haveformallydemonstrated at least theminimalcriteria for the title.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 03:48:07 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on January 21, 2012, 03:32:27 amAgain, lets not confuse actual ability and having formally demonstrated the minimal criteria for the title.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 04:26:12 am
content: Saying there is a standard, at least in the US, for college degrees in engineering is a joke. There isn't even standardization on very well established requirements like calculus. At the graduate level, there are hugely varying ranges for getting a Masters degree. Not all schools even require a thesis! There is a general requirement for some level of "peer review" at every school I've ever heard of, but that requirement is almost always compromised by self interest on the part of the reviewers. How does any of this add up to a minimum standard for showing someone is qualified to be an engineer? It's mostly a time and dedication sink, and doesn't guarantee a particularly strong level of knowledge or competency.The only thing that approaches a "minimum standard" would be a Professional Engineer title, and even then that isn't a very well defined process, relying (as I understand it) on a history of quality work and an apprenticeship process.I have yet to see any solid requirements stand up to "peer review" on these forums for what makes someone an engineer. It seems increasingly obvious that it's a "I know it when I see it" classification, in which case what someone calls themself is pretty worthless as a judge.

author: tbscope
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 05:38:32 am
content: One thing I dislike is that most people and universities don't make a distinction between "electricity" and "electronics".You often see that an engineer with a master in electronics is called an "electrical engineer". No, that's an "electronics engineer".There's a world of difference between electricity and electronics.I'm a true electrical engineer and I know almost nothing of electronics. The only electronics I've ever seen is simple circuits and power electronics (rectifiers, filters, ...).Recently, at the company I work, we hired an electrical engineer. When this person opened a circuit breaker cabinet, she didn't understand one bit of it. It turned out she was an electronics specialist, but was hired on her title.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 08:48:03 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on January 21, 2012, 04:26:12 amThe official standard is a university's adherence to minimum program requirements established by ABET and passing periodic comprehensive reviews in order to attain/maintain accreditation. The unofficial standard is a university's program exceeding minimum expectations, which is directly reflected in a school's reputation;University of North FloridaandBerkeleymay hold the same accreditation, but take a wild guess who's program is better?Quote from: jerry507 on January 21, 2012, 04:26:12 amCalculus is a tool. You might be able to get away in digital courses, but you're not passing circuits, signals, EM fields, solid-state physics, etc., etc., etc. without it...simple as that. Besides, who cares about lower-division prereqs anyways? Keep in mind that manyincoming freshmenat reputable universities who declare engineering or a physical science as their major skip calculus entirely and jump right into upper-division mathematics; it's practically the norm these days!Quote from: jerry507 on January 21, 2012, 04:26:12 amMasters is a specialized degree, so I don't see your point, especially when the discussion pertains to engineering; if there's anything to gripe about, the MBA programs across the nation could use some constructive criticism. Since when is a thesis required? A thesis is really preparation for doctoral study; non-thesis MS is a terminal degree in the same way as MEng, and the thesis is often replaced with some project of notable complexity. Either way, the point is a red herring in that masters candidates have already completed undergrad requirements for their respective program.Quote from: jerry507 on January 21, 2012, 04:26:12 amPE is a liability thingregulated by state, which relies heavily on the successful completion of thePE examamongst other checks and balances. Requirements for attaining the license are well defined contrary to what you suggest. It's not a minimum standard; it's a notable milestone in professional development and a title that many engineers strive to attain.Quote from: jerry507 on January 21, 2012, 04:26:12 amPeer review plays a role. Perhaps not the dominating role that you'd like it to be, be it's nevertheless there. Personally, it's a trust thing; there are just way too manyimposters,fakes, andclever con artistsout there to be handing over responsibility and the benefit of the doubt so nonchalantly. I see it as a game of probabilities:What are the chances that Person A, who has successfully completed an established and known curriculum, can produce a viable sol'n to a problem in engineering vs. Person B, who has no formal background but has gained the respect of his peers?Fair game. Now consider another scenario:What are the chances that Person A, who has a formal background and 4 years industry experience, can produce a viable sol'n to anon-trivialproblem in engineering vs. Person B, who has no formal background and 9 years industry experience?

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 09:34:21 am
content: Quote from: tbscope on January 21, 2012, 05:38:32 amIn the US, the degree bestowed is in electrical engineering, whether your focus is electronics or energy systems; specializations are in the fine print. An example of a electrical engineering specialization that wouldn't fit the electronics engineer title is a signals specialist. I know only the fundamentals of power theory andabsolutely nothingof practical power production systems. Could I learn it? In due time, sure. I'm I an ideal candidate for an entry-level power engineering position? Definitely not. Does this fact inherently disqualify me of any future employment in that particular industry? I don't think so.Although I agree that there's definitely the potential for confusion, I believe that's what industry titles are for, not degrees. If there's any difference, it's in practical implementation and consequences. Power systems is to electronics as signals is to semiconductors. In principle, there is no difference; Mother Nature doesn't differentiate between electrons handled by electronics engineers and proper electrical engineers.Quite frankly, this is what I'd expect a technician to say.If there's an issue, it's with your employer's HR staff and interviewing party. If she's gotten that far, perhaps someone at the table saw something of value. You're living in utopia if you really expect a new hire out of college to simply look at some industry-specific device and instantly know everything there is to know about it (doesn't make for good job security either). If you were a 20-year industry veteran, you'd be in the exact same predicament walking into a high-energy lightning research facility or particle acceleration plant.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 09:54:35 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on January 21, 2012, 03:32:27 amAt least in Austria you can ask to be addressed as engineer. They historically have the courtesy to include the engineer in the list of occupations and civil service ranks to be used to address someone. Like Doctor, Magister, Privy Councilor, Professor they address you in polite company as "Mister Engineer" and not "Mister <your name>" when they figured out you are an engineer.It is quite funny. Check in a good traditional five star hotel. Fill in the registration form. State engineer as occupation. From now on the hotel staff will call you "Mister Engineer".I have been told that stating your academic degree or title is also required on official documents, but I don't have enough experience with Austrian bureaucracy to confirm this.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 10:17:54 am
content: Quote from: tbscope on January 21, 2012, 05:38:32 amI am not sure if you want the spanish versionIngeniero técnico de telecomunicación en la correspondiente especialidador the polish versionIn?ynier telekomunikacji uprawniony do projektowania lub kierowania robotami budowlanymi bez ogranicze? w specjalno?ci telekomunikacyjnejof a telco engineering title. At least that is how they are listed in the EU registry of regulated professions. Should be quite to fun to fit that on a business card.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 10:29:20 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 21, 2012, 09:54:35 amThe Führer would be proud. LOL jokes jokes

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 12:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 21, 2012, 09:34:21 amA halfway decent Electronics Technician would certainly recognise the basic devices in a circuit breaker cabinet,so he/she would probably make the same comment,as would any of the Electronics Engineers I have worked with over the years.A circuit breaker box is hardly an "Industry-specific device",they are used in every industry that uses electricity (there aren't many steam operated factories any more).A high-energy lightning research facility or a particle acceleration plant would be more in the realms of Physics than Engineering,but a"20 year industry veteran",either Electrical or Electronics Engineer, Electronics Tech,or a Licenced Electrician would definitely recognise a lot of the equipment which goes to make up the devices involved.The engineer concerned was not really to blame,as it was the over-specialisation of her training ,plus the lack of practical work in her Uni course, which made her unable to operate in the position she found herself in.VK6ZGO

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 01:10:01 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 21, 2012, 12:33:29 pmYeah...right.Quote from: vk6zgo on January 21, 2012, 12:33:29 pmYeah...right.10 years as an avionics technician on 3 airframes has taught me a hard lesson about what ought to be and the realities of what is.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 02:50:14 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 19, 2012, 09:01:36 pmSomeone who cares about the mission critical big money project rather than someone who just cares about covering their arse, knowing they can blame a university for qualifying the idiot that just blew up the project.Your argument is the stuff dilbert cartoons are made of.Someone who didn't spend 3 or 4 years obtaining a formal qualification spent 3 or 4 years doing something else, so ignoring arse covering considerations, it boils down to which of those 3-4 year options provided the best training for the job you want them to do.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 03:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 21, 2012, 01:10:01 pmWell,wow! I should be impressed?44 Years as an Electronics Technician/Technical Officer,working on TV & BroadcastTransmission & Studio Equipment,Comms equipment,& latterly on hearing testing equipment,Mining Equipment Simulators,NMR machines,& ISM RF Equipment has taught me a bit too,my friend!VK6ZGO

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 04:02:28 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 21, 2012, 03:42:50 pmForgot to mention,there might be 1 physicist involved here.No disrespect, but your comment serves as a vivid reminder that the path I chose so late in life is one that will still grant me a 34-year head start designing the next generation of equipment that you currently repair.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 04:59:43 pm
content: Semantics. You can be an engineer but not be an Engineer without "proper accreditation", which varies by a) jurisdiction and b) by circumstance.I can call myself an engineer, but if I set foot on a college campus and call myself an Engineer, the campus cops may be called to escort me off. I can call myself an engineer, but if I do so on a job resume without having a degree with the correct letters associated with it, I can expect to get non-hired. If you tell a banker you are an engineer, its banking fraud. In some jurisdictions, even associating the E-word with my name without certification would probably put me at risk of criminal prosecution.And of course, if I call myself any sort of engineer here, I would be lucky to only be laughed at. :-/But yet, in my own limited way, I do perform electronics engineering. Of a sort.Sooo...what was the point of all of this again?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 09:12:27 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 21, 2012, 01:10:01 pmArgue all you like, but vk6zgo is spot on here. It's a question of competence, some basic understanding that carries through since the late 19Th century.QuoteAgain vk6zgo is spot on. We are talking engineering not the customs of the masons. Every complex system can be broken down into a number of well proven and readily understood and recognised systems.QuoteAnd this 10 years, by your argument counts for nothing, it's only the formal title that matters, right. Much of that time had no guru professor on tap, how could that experience be of any value if so much of it was self learnt? How could your years of experience be superior to some fresh graduate, from a recognised school with a higher qualification?

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 09:12:57 pm
content: Quote from: bullet308 on January 21, 2012, 04:59:43 pmThis whole thread can be summed up as: a guy off the street with years of experience is better than a university graduate. I don't have a problem with that.The REAL issue is oftentimes guy from the street is full of shit, and hasn't done an iota of what he says he did or he specializes in a very narrow field and cannot really think outside the box. School teaches you how to think and how to try to understand, school teaches you discipline, and a lot of sels-appointed neckbeards lack discipline big time and despite being great "engineers", they fuck up the project by being late on deadlines or deviating from the original scope of work. These very people have that attitude thinking that university students don't know jack which is of course not true. These people tend to have inflated egos and overestimate their abilities and get their panties in a bunch when they get called out on their bullshit. The issue at hand that, I will repeat myself for the 100th time, is that schools are like filters, they allow employers to see that person X is at least this good, while guy off the street can call himself an engineer after 1 year of tinkering with arduino and verifying his REAL abilities is next to impossible unless he is known in the industry and has published works and project whitepapers.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 09:45:50 pm
content: wartex are you bitter about something ? i read the first page of this subject but i couldn't be arsed to go right through it ,it's just too long.so i'll throw my two penneth in now.it doesn't matter !.saying that .throughout my experience of university .not in electronics by the way.there are two types of people who become graduates.those who need to be spoonfed ideas and those who don't.those who get ideas and act on them and those who don't.exactly the same for people who don't attend college.no one is better than the other.if you go down the beach and see someone sketching you'll say to yourself "there's an artist".if you see someone fiddling about with a breadboard with a handful of components " there's a electronic engineer.you'd be correct .a piece of paper means nothing.i don't mean that in anyway disrespectful to those who have degrees but it doesn't.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 10:06:14 pm
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 21, 2012, 09:12:57 pmHow is that an adequate summation? It's an unsubstantiated opinion loosely related to your topic title.QuoteWhat basis do you have to suggest that such people are routinely passing through the interview process? And if so isn't the issue inadequate review rather than some bollocks about titles?QuoteBollocks! Thinking is not something that can be taught. Education is a system that (hopefully) equips its students with the means to absorb knowledge.QuoteAnd of course you have some basis of proof that somehow all with qualifications are immune from similar traits. I call Bullshit! Theere are costly space wasters from every source.QuoteNo one suggested all university students were clueless far from it. But you wont have to look too far to find many examples of cocksure junior geniuses with a sense of self worth that far exceeds ability.QuoteTraits that could be readily attributed to the previously mention cocksure junior geniuses.QuoteWas ad infinitum repetition a skill learnt in college? I don't think it was! It doesn't take much of a genius to work out replicating an action will most likely replicate the result.QuoteBollocks! If they are filters they are not very effective ones, a fair quantity of the inept are seeping through. They may be skilled in the meeting the requirements of a syllabus but they certainly do not posses the abilities to observe, adapt or apply knowledge they may or may not have retained.QuoteWhite papers is it? Your argument becomes more implausible by the hour. Where is this industry wide crisis of Arduino nerds infiltrating and undermining industry? And of course industry has never expressed dissatisfaction with the generalised readiness of well accredited graduates.Your arguments appear based in the realm of open blogs and forums with little relationship to any industry realities. Anyone can set up a website, and any clueless jackass with a keyboard and an ego can deride or challenge the contents without basis.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 10:57:16 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 21, 2012, 10:06:14 pmThis looks like the central circular argument to me... grads are bitter that non grads are deriding their efforts and the non grads are bitter that they are unrecognised for their personal effort to learn.I suspect this issue would go away on the board if some of the college is crap innuendo would disappear.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 11:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on January 21, 2012, 10:57:16 pmWho is suggesting college is crap??? The suggestion being more that it's influence is not absolute. Equally self taught is no guarantee to a higher position. Ability and knowledge are just that, the means by which those traits and skills are obtained is of no real consequence to ability.There is and always will be pretenders in our discipline, some with, and some without degrees!

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 11:24:04 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 21, 2012, 11:13:31 pmcmon Uncle Vernon, some of your language throughout this thread and others has been something less than impersonal. One of the posts called PhD's trash engineers. Very few people would say things like cock-sure geniuses. Thats hardly gives grads a warm and fuzzy feeling. I don't remember anyone referring to non grad's as cock sure shock absorbers. There was a previous thread a month or two ago when someone was sick of one of the amphour discussions on the topic. Its been somewhat consistent for quite a while.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 11:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 21, 2012, 09:12:57 pmIME that simply doesn't hold true.Qualified people can be equally as shit as "someone off the street".Some of the worst and most clueless people I have ever worked with and interviewed have had excellent qualifications.Qualifications and having a clue can be mutually exclusive.I've interviewed and worked with people form the exact same course and exact same institution, and there can bevastdifferences between their knowledge and capabilities.That's why any smart employer judges people based on their experience and what they have proven they can do, plus "the vibe" of course. And that's why you have probationary periods too. If they managed to slip through the interview process, then you give them the boot after a few months if the don't perform.Only when hiring green graduates, will your qualifications matter match, simply because there usually isn't much else to go on. If you have several people to pick from, you like them all, they all seem equally switched on, and the only differentiator is the qualifications, then that might be the deciding factor. Otherwise the deciding factor is almost always something else other than qualifications.And correct me if I am wrong, but you haven't actually worked in the industry, correct?If not, then how can you talk with any authority on this topic from the perspective of an employer?Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2012, 11:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on January 21, 2012, 11:24:04 pmAnd that equates to me supposedly saying "college is crap" how exactly?QuoteOne of my posts? I am afraid you are in error there. I reiterate there are good and poor engineers from multiple sources. A PhD while impressive is still no guarantee of aptitude or real world ability. This isn't for a moment suggesting all PhDs are clueless.QuoteOh the poor little darlings, if they want the big bucks they'd better earn them. Am I supposed to swoon just because they have some form of degree.QuoteThe point being?QuoteSeveral consistencies the most prevalent being the line that a degree entitles the holder to some sort of workplace superiority. Industry response is bound to disappoint those whose perceive a qualification as a justification for their receiving elevated status.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 12:43:15 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 21, 2012, 04:02:28 pmYes,I do sound a bit like Methuselah,don't I?By the time the equipment you are designing becomes in need of repair,I will probably be beyond repair,myself!I didn't just walk in one day,44 years ago,& stay a baseline Tech at the same bench,doing the same thing till now,I have had various titles such as Supervising Tech,Technical Officer in various Grades,& against my expressed wishes-Engineer!!The number of useless Techs (& Engineers) I have encountered during this time could be counted on the fingers of one hand.The majority of good ones had an interest in,(indeed a fascination with) Electronics,to the extent that they "tinkered" at home as well as doing it as a job.Your experience seems to be different,in that what I,or the majority of older Techs & Engineers accept as normal seems to be regarded as unusual.Around 10 years in,I did think about attempting to become an Engineer,but did not pursue it for several reasons:(1) I didn't think I was smart enough!(2) I didn't have a good enough Educational background,& would have to make up that deficit first,turning a 4 year course into 5/6 years.(3) I had only been married two years,& had recently become a father,so other things took priority.From where I stand now,I can make the following comments:(1)I believe I was (maybe not now!) smart enough,(2)The 5/6 years went past anyway,& I had to make up the Educational deficit in any case, to progress further through the Tech Officer grades.(3)I can still justify this,as dropping down to a student's income would have put a lot of pressure on the family.If I had done the first couple of years,there may have been the possibility of the employer picking up the tab for the rest,but that had virtually died out by that time.As a new Engineer,I would have been making less than a Tech Officer on Shift.In one of my earlier posts in this thread,I made the comment that those Engineers who started out as Techs then became Engineers bydoing a Degree were usually regarded as the best Engineers.I commend your efforts in becoming an Engineer,& I believe that your practical know-how will combine well with your theoretical knowledge to make you one of the best.VK6ZGO

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 12:49:08 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 21, 2012, 11:50:33 pmOh you poor darling (feels good hey). I said innuendo and I didn't necessarily mean you.QuoteQuoteI was talking about the level of nastiness and pot stirring in the thread. Wartex was the only one who raised the language to your level.QuoteQuoteNon-grad CV's will most likely be binned when you apply for a job. The world has overwhelmingly already made their choice on this. My take on it is this thread has nothing to do with capability. Its about calling yourself an engineer without what is widely accepted to be the ticket to play. The degree. Now I know that a degree doesn't automatically give everyone superior knowledge (although it will the already clued up). I think most of the grads in this thread have said that. So who's harping on it. It really doesn't matter what you or I think on the topic. That bit of paper is the ticket. Whinging about how the world isn't fair because you haven't the patience or personality to sit in the classroom is irrelevant.And it goes beyond that. Very few of the institutions that regulate standards actually require you to have a degree. The degree makes the process painless however. If any of the non-grads think they have the goods they can apply for an individual assessment. Then guess what? You too can have the bit of paper to play. But I suppose if they refused to accept you they must still be full of shit.And as far as cocksure goes. You make the assumption that there is nothing that a university could give you that you could not pick up on your own in the job.QuoteQuoteFor the most part the grad's have been straight and said that the degree doesn't automatically guarantee anything - its just the accepted ticket to play. No-one has come in and said that the number of retards amongst the technician ranks is alot higher.QuoteQuoteI'm sorry Uncle Vernon it does. Industry has already made its choice. Suggesting that industry as a generality doesn't care about grads or non-grads is dishonest. Whether its right or wrong is irrelevant.Do you really think the level of the low hanging fruit is the same between non-grads and grads? Really - an even 50/50 split?And how should industry work? Should we abolish the concept of the degree or the CV or give everyone an entrance exam to apply for every job just so that we can be 'fair'. Should we just hire more HR?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 01:15:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2012, 11:35:12 pmHow to assess people at interview, that's the trick isn't it?I've interviewed people with glowing resumes, but when I asked them detailed questions they deflected the questions like a politician rather than answering the questions like an engineer. Sometimes when you interview people it's like trying to discern detail in a bunch of cotton wool. You can probe as much as you like but you will never find anything solidI have read mention above about people being hired who weren't up to the job, as if that was HR's fault. Now I don't know where people have worked, but to me that is an organizational failure. In functional organizations the hiring decisions are made by people close to the job. HR may do the paperwork, but they don't make the hire/no hire decisions. If you work in an organization where HR throw random people at you, go work for a different organization

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 01:48:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2012, 11:35:12 pmAnd for two guys the same age the one that didn't spend 3-4 years getting a qualification can have 3-4 years extra of something else to go on.When my classmates on the 4 year degree I quit after 2 years graduated I had already worked for Texas Instruments for 18 months and was 6 months into a job with IBM.Since someone bought it up I did take an informal 'entry exam' during the interview for the TI job, for IBM I had to take a formal IQ test.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 01:56:32 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on January 22, 2012, 01:48:27 amMay I ask what your role was with TI? It has nothing to do with this argument I am just interested to know.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 02:14:58 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on January 22, 2012, 12:49:08 amThat's nice for you. Let me know if I am supposed to feel offended.QuoteThe only one? Best have another read, eh?QuoteMost likely? That will depend entirely upon circumstance, I agree a degree is a head start at getting to the interview stage of the job application process. That is something I had previously stated in this thread. But come the interview process a degree is much less of a decider. And as highlighted by Mr Jones the probationary period.QuoteOh it has has it? Which world is this? Back here on Earth results vary well outside any universally overwhelming outcome.QuoteTicket to play? Take your hand off it! A degree is a certificate of attainment not some universal justification for high status.QuoteDidn't you just suggest a degree was "a ticket to play"? IE: All without a degree should not be allowed to play! That's bollocks.QuoteIt's been suggested that advanced skill is not possible without a degree. That is old boys club elitist bullshit.QuoteOne side of this argument is precious about a title that most everyone with a clue would rather do without. You tell me who is harping on.QuoteIt may matter to anyone looking to do work for me. Attitudes need not apply.QuoteTicket to being a few step away fromthe bottom in a first stage employment screen, yes that has already been established.QuoteWho said anything about the world being fair, let alone expecting it to be. Patience or personality to site in a classroom? What elitist rot, not everyone had the privilege to sleep in till lunch time and sit in a classroom for 4 or more years. Some of the best engineers on the planet has seen never had such luxuries. Families, geography even conscription has robbed individuals of the opportunity of a formal education. Seems most of the whinging is from those who are under the misapprehension that four years of study is due a lifetime of respect. Those who believe such things are due a whole world of disappointment.QuoteWhy do those with years of assessment and industry respect need a piece of paper?QuoteNot at all. And not something I have ever suggested. On the other hand when we start seeing degrees various being handed out without review to Sisters Minogue various, US presidents, etc, you do question what value a degree actually entails.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8855284/Surprising-honorary-degree-recipients.html?image=9http://news.ninemsn.com.au/entertainment/8372232/dannii-minogue-gets-brit-honorary-degreehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-15165796http://www.dartmouth.edu/~commence/speeches/2011/obrien-speech.htmlhttp://www.harvard.edu/historyQuoteI made no such assumption! Nor did I suggest that other paths were or quicker or easier.QuoteSeveral consistencies the most prevalent being the line that a degree entitles the holder to some sort of workplace superiority. Industry response is bound to disappoint those whose perceive a qualification as a justification for their receiving elevated status.QuoteYour experience must differ from my own.QuoteAs a matter of fact I do. Dills are Dills regardless of their qualifications. The only difference being the graduate Dills generally hold an exaggerated perception of self worth.QuoteProfitably and expertly, any other options and it will be undercut by Asia.QuoteWell that is your suggestion not mine. I don't see to many of the non degree engineers whining about not getting a fair go. I know I've seen more than a few degree holders (and just as many unqualified applicants) fail miserably at answering what I consider basic challenges of knowledge and ingenuity.QuoteDepends who you ask. Hairdressers and Filofax salesmen would definitely be in support of such an idea.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 02:34:09 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 22, 2012, 01:15:17 amSure is, and it's far from easy to do. Apart from sorting out the inevitable time wasters.QuoteYes the politicians immediately get marked down. I'll give a a lot more plus points to someone who can admit they have no clue, but can outline the steps they'd take to find the answer. The interview process is intimidating for applicants especially for first time job seekers or those who haven't looked in years. You always have to cut people some slack while at the same time evaluating performance under pressure.QuoteYour right, there are often a organisational failings. I've seen so many examples of HR and Financial Managers doing the hiring, and this is with large US, Australian and American based corporations. Funny how giving the Dear John chat, was always left to those people close to the job.QuoteI most certainly don't, though I most certainly have done. Many times over.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 02:47:21 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 22, 2012, 01:56:32 amThe job title was maintenance engineer (oops that word - lol). Looking after all the manufacturing and test equipment for transistors and diodes from finished wafers onwards.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 02:53:39 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 22, 2012, 02:14:58 amQuoteAbsolutely... are you suggesting that most electronics engineers work in small business?Most electronics design that I see going on clearly happens in the larger business. Every large business I know of has clear graduate entrance requirements. Thats why HR bin them.QuoteQuoteAbsolutely.. and its usually the law in most countries in order to provide services directly to the public. You have an individual assessment procedure if you think you have the knowledge.QuoteQuoteFrom what I recall the suggestion is that the likelihood is slim.QuoteQuoteWould you hire someone with your attitude?QuoteQuoteThere are plenty of problems with the current system but it is generally relied upon to keep standards up. Most of the alternatives would be an unworkable time sink.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 03:17:55 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on January 22, 2012, 02:53:39 amNo! And my observation are far from limited to small business.QuotePerhaps your experiences are limited. There is a some serious design happening in all spheres of business. The cutting edge stuff is often more likely to be occurring in the the smaller organisations with less compatibility and liability obligations. There are no hard and fast rules to engineering application.QuoteApart from the dinosaurs most progressive engineering businesses source labour from a variety of sources. I've worked for several multinationals in my time, who'd seen fit to type the title Engineer on my business cards.QuoteThat and the fact they probably have no clue of the required attribute the position entails.QuoteI hired me didn't I?More importantly a lot of Engineering Managers have had no problem hiring me and my attitude.In sectors like the construction industry for example, attitude is almost mandatory. I'd rather someone who can back themself than some whiner any day.QuoteNow that is thinking like an engineer</sarcasm> A true engineers sees a problem as an opportunity to develop a solution.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 03:37:01 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 22, 2012, 03:17:55 amQuoteI am actually wondering if you even do electronics engineering.QuoteI am well aware of that. I work in small business and I do cutting edge design. However in terms of volume, its small peanuts compared to the volume and job opportunities the major's are doing.QuoteYou've taken an extreme position. Its been decades since uni education was for the privileged. Hell I even had a classmate who died from Aids shortly after we graduated but who wanted the experience anyways. People are typically living rough and working some kind of part time job. The IEAust even set up a online education wing in 95 to get technicians up to graduate level. Just an extreme view of grads being 'elitist'.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 03:58:42 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on January 22, 2012, 03:37:01 amYou can wonder till your brow furrows, it doesn't make a spot of difference to my day.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2012, 08:40:52 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on January 22, 2012, 02:53:39 amCome to Australia and you will find that is not the case.In fact it is not uncommon for job ads to specifically state qualifications "or equivalent experience" for the grad/junior type roles, or in the majority of cases for experienced roles, not state any minimum formal qualifications at all, or for a qualification to be listed under the list of "desirables".And in many cases, when a qualifications is stated as a "must-have" requirement, they are usually quite flexible on it.Dave.

author: mlaargh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 12:56:32 am
content: I'm a EE at one of the largest electronics companies in the world and I'm non-degreed. Though it is much more difficult to get hired into such a position without a formal degree in the US, I'm proof that it is quite possible with the requisite knowledge, enthusiasm, and attitude.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 01:51:17 am
content: I know I'm at the tail end and I'll bet someone's already brought up people like Jeri Ellsworth.I'll just say that, personally, I've known people with a university degree in engineering that couldn't engineer water out a boot with directions on the heel.Two men without degrees taught me everything I know about my current engineering job - they were both definitely engineers.I like to say there are 4 quadrants, and I've known folks in all 4.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 04:35:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2012, 08:40:52 amFact of the matter is,all else being equalbetween two candidates, the one with the degree will always get the job whether it was required or not and the other without it will not. This is true in any industry. This is why pay data consistently reveal that degreed workers earn more.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 04:45:28 am
content: Fellas, let not forget to think about context when throwing around the word "engineer". I suspect this is the root of why this thread has gotten so long.The way I see it, there is engineer the title conferred by some conferring body that a lot of people seem to think highly of though certainly not everybody. Then there is engineer the job description where the word is meant to denote the tasks and activities of engineering. Then there is engineer as a mark of "street smarts" around all things electronic. There may be other context but untangling those would go a long way in this rant thread.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:02:51 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 04:35:40 amFact? What absolute rubbish!QuoteNo it is not. But I will agree that a degree will help no end with negotiating salary. Specifically starting salary. Something which also makes a nonsense of your prior statement. Overqualified is the usual soft let down phrase for the unsuccessful degree applicant, code for overpriced and inflexible.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:11:08 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 23, 2012, 05:02:51 amWithall else being equalbetween two candidates, what basis does a rational employer have for hiring the uneducated candidate? I concede that there can be stellar things about an uneducated candidate, but then the ceteris paribus caveat will not apply in that case now would it?

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:15:21 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 05:11:08 amYou can't just say that about two different people. They may both have the same ability to do the job, but what about looking at personality and all those unquantifiable things that engineers (oh there's the word again) sometimes miss?

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:18:58 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 23, 2012, 05:15:21 amIn all things that matter to the employer, legal or otherwise. Its anything really, including the "vibe". The only expectation is the employer is honest, fair and applies his/her standards the same for both candidates.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:25:51 am
content: Well of course, if you just define the whole argument yourself you will always win^This now makes no sense because PeteInTexas edited his post.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:28:00 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 05:11:08 amIf one candidate was uneducated how could all things be equal? But we are not talking about an uneducated candidate, we are talking about capable candidates, some of which may not have a recognised degree.QuoteYour suggestion of qualified applicants having equality with the uneducated, readily suggest that a Degree may not be the sole determinant for an organisation seeking to employ skilled and knowledgeable persons.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:31:50 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 23, 2012, 05:02:51 amThe state of Texas has a population that exceeds that of Australia as a whole by a few million. Fact of the matter is, if there are any contentions concerning the methods of employment between two countries separated by vast oceans, Australia wouldn't be considered the standard and is hardly the norm.Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 23, 2012, 05:02:51 amWith respect to entry-level positions, agreed. Keep in mind that technicians in the US, regardless of experience, often have very little--if any--say with respect to salary negotiation. That being said, it's not like technicians don't make a pretty penny, as pointed out byKidder in his historical account of engineering perseverance at Data Generalor theblue collar WG-13 pay rate of non-degree avionics techniciansat my military unit. Furthermore, the matter of being "overqualified" is more a dilemma of maintaining organizational order rather than salary or inflexibility. In fact, many are willing to accept entry-level pay and are still denied. The dilemma more often than not has to do with overpaid managers who don't take kindly to PhD's well accustomed to living on pocket change and have the balls to point out their less-than-refined decision making faculties.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:45:38 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 23, 2012, 05:28:00 amThis appears to be an admission of disparity amongst those with a degree and those without.Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 23, 2012, 05:28:00 amIt was previously argued that in industry, a degree is more often than not the ticket to play...a pre-test, if you will.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 06:01:31 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on January 23, 2012, 05:28:00 amallelse. The only difference is the degree. How can this be you ask? Well, say an employer is only interested in years in the industry regardless of actual capacity and the ability to tell a clean joke.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 06:07:32 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 23, 2012, 05:31:50 amYes all things are bigger in Texas, including Hats and egos. Why are you telling me this? More to the point why would I be interested?QuoteFact? Two countries? It may come as complete surprise to you but this forum and this thread for that matter has an international readership. Differing standards differing regulations etc. There is a whole world out there that is not continental USA.QuoteThere you go shifting the focus again. We aren't talking about entry level positions. Refer back to the thread topic? We are talking about engineering positions.QuoteWhy would I need to keep that in mind? I'm sure it's handy info for someone who is a) IN the USA and b) a technician, but its hardly relevant here.QuoteWhile I share your scepticism with generalised standards of management type, I cannot agree it that it is the only determining factor. More than a few managers a too stupid to know they are being criticised when it happens.The salary thing is a complex relationship, which matches the greed of the employee with the greed of the employer. You only have to look at the IT sector to see what happens when things get out out of balance. A few years back, dot com boom and all that it was a closed shop, top dollar paid, computer science degree essential. Now look at all the bitter out of work graduates bitching cos Raj from Bangalore has their job, doing lots more work for lots less money. Don't think it doesn't happen in industries across the board.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 06:14:21 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 23, 2012, 05:45:38 amOnly if for those of you who see a degree as being equal to uneducated.QuoteWhich was previously refuted, along with substantive testimonials. !

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 06:26:50 am
content: I'd generally agree that at least a bachelors degree is a "ticket to play" in the US. What I don't agree on is that this is at all a guarantee of any level of "real world" competency. I attended Iowa State University, which is by no means a top tier school, but it's a pretty good EE program. While there (for many years), I generally came to the view that your classes were pretty worthless by and large. A persons ability to sit down and put a circuit into action was directly related to their ability to get out of the classroom and do other stuff. Any sort of extra-circular activity worked. Even the most annoying idiots who did everything wrong were better than the ones with 4.0 GPAs who always started their homeworks a week early.I don't believe the US educational systems properly equips students to be useful out of the university. Lab exercises are generally pathetic and underfunded. Professors hate teaching (with a few excellent exceptions at any given place) and the university is generally happy to do the bare minimum to extract tuition dollars from undergraduates while letting professors do research. Graduate programs reward extreme specialty even though this is often contrary to what industry is looking for. Even when the specialty is in the correct place, graduates often have no exposure to related areas. People with PhDs generally have no additional useful skills beyond a masters student. Though I haven't checked in the last few years, throughout the early 2000's EETimes was running a salary survey. They had consistently been showing that a PhD was no more likely to have a higher salary than a masters student, despite having forgone many years of salary plus sometimes sunk cost into getting the degree. "The industry has spoken."Of course, this is all in relation to the US. I think this is, as noted by PeteInTexas, a huge source of confusion with our very widely diverse crowd. In the US, the only type of official engineering title that you can get (AFAIK) is a Professional Engineer title. How much you see a PE varies a lot it seems. The companies I have worked for only employ them in mechanical positions. My current company (mostly a software operation) doesn't employ a single one. Because of crazy US laws, it's often the case where you don't need a PE at all.I think the two big camps here are the people who believe that degrees imply a basic level of skill, and those who don't. Whether someone can be called an engineer really depends on their skill level, and how we want to see that skill level demonstrated differs between us. Personally, if someone comes up to me and wants to talk shop, I'm not going to look at their business card, where they went to school or their legal titles. I'm going to talk to them and figure out if they're worth their salt. It's the only way to be sure.

author: joedevola
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 06:48:05 am
content: Another way of looking at it: The initial qualification is extremely important for getting that first job. After that, skill, ability and experience become more important in chasing the higher paying jobs up the food chain.

author: damo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 06:50:44 am
content: What about people who call themselves 'Software Engineers'? Some of them have no formal training, only experience. The job description is very similar only one works in the real world while the other works in the virtual world.That being said, I don't call myself an engineer as my current job is in computer training and analysis. I could become an engineer if I took up software design again like I did after I finished my degree in IT.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 07:00:06 am
content: Quote from: damo on January 23, 2012, 06:50:44 amDijkstra himselfhad a few words to say about the contentions of proclaimed "software engineers".

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 07:02:07 am
content: Quote from: damo on January 23, 2012, 06:50:44 amMy title is "software engineer" and at my last client was fixing EMI problems, reworking hoses in hydraulic systems and rewiring harnesses on prototype machines. It's what you do, not what you're called.

author: damo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 07:03:04 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 23, 2012, 07:00:06 amDijkstra rules!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 08:12:50 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on January 23, 2012, 05:31:50 amYeah,& just think!If they hadn't been so eager to snuggle up to the USA back in 1845,they'd have a real country of their own too!AND it would have been bigger!VK6ZGO

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 09:02:06 am
content: My brother in law has two degrees and leads a department at the National physical laboratory but if the fuse blows on his computer my sister has to fix it. There is an old saying those that can do those that cant teach.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 11:38:15 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 04:35:40 amThe only way all else could be equal is for the non-degreed candidate to have spent 4 years in cryogenic storage instead of attending university.Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 04:35:40 amWonder how lifetime pay data compares considering that for degreed workers the first 3-4 years of it is negative?

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 02:15:06 pm
content: QuoteTradeoffs, tradeoffs....if this is like most any other industry, the non-degrees engineer can do very well if he gets his foot in the door at a given company. Some companies, he can get that opportunity, others not.Then, once he has proven his mettle, he may be promoted, or not. Some companies will hire worker bees without degrees, but wont let them into management, or they will hit a glass ceiling somewhere in lower to middle management. He may well find himself working for management/marketing MBA pointy-haired boss-types forever. Or not. But I submit that the higher up the food chain you go, the more a degree is going to buy in in most cases.And if you are not interested in management and just want to keep doing what you do? If the EE field is anything like others I have been around, you can make a darned good living at it but a lot of times you cap out at Worker Bee, 1st-Class and your pay quits rising.So, you lateral over to another company...but how big on degrees are they going to be? Again, it varies, but I submit that the guy with the degree will, all else being equal, find himself to be more portable from company to company.Or, you can have a suck degree and limited skills outside of a few narrow and not particularly lucrative fields, like me. :-/

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 04:29:04 pm
content: I got a soldering iron AND an oscilloscope does that make me an engineer?I have been watching this thread since it started it has been really funny, I've especially enjoyed and agreed with Uncle Vernons replies. I am definitely looking forwardto the Amp Hour this week. I'm sure this thread will get a mention!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 04:34:42 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 23, 2012, 09:02:06 am..to which I'd add "those who can't teach write magazine articles"Obviously with the occasional notable exception

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:43:30 pm
content: I guess we better stop calling Leonardo da Vinci an engineer. He never got a degree.Can I call myself a machinist if I don't have machinist journeymans papers?

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 23, 2012, 09:02:06 amMaybe this has more to do with the value of your brothers time than ability to tinker with a fuse?

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on January 23, 2012, 05:43:30 pmda Vinci will not make it today's world. No company will hire him for actual engineering. They would probably hire him just to boost their image- "look at us we have da Vinci".

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 05:53:05 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 05:47:16 pmImplying that employers' bias has anything to do with use of the term...?

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 06:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 05:47:16 pmThe military of the time thought he was good enough to hire.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 06:24:20 pm
content: Its more to do with him being totally incompetent with a screwdriver, A degree in pure math and computer science does not an engineer make.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 07:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 05:44:07 pmFrom your statements I can hear you have not been around truly exceptional people who are so focused on their "work/research" that everything around them just becomes "noise" that they ignore.I went to school with the granddaughter of Niels Bohr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr) - and she said - "He lived in another world - and if you gave him a hammer - he would not know which end to hold - but ask him about an atom - and he could tell you everything down to the minute detail".Another "equal" I know is Holger Bech Nielsen - who has problems doing his shoelaces - and has a full time paid assistant to help him find out where is is supposed to be during the day, what to wear and how to wear it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holger_Bech_Nielsen)The truly exceptional focuses their minds on a subset of what the rest of us does. So they become "extreme" in their field - but seem "out of place" in normal society. Today it would quite possibly be diagnosed as an illness like ADD - and it might be. But without those truly unique creatures - our society would be generations behind where we are now.So just because a someone does not know how to change a fuse despite one or more degrees - it does not mean they do not want to - they truly might not know.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 08:42:00 pm
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 04:45:28 amEveryone has a different interpretation. I see plethora of systems or maintenance engineering jobs that look more like technician jobs to me. I worked in Australia for a considerable amount of time and those jobs make up most of the job market there. I can type in electronics design into one of the australian job boards and only see a handful of true design jobs at any one time. I consider design to be the core competency that defines what engineering is - but its obvious that alot of people on here don't. Its also the reason why an army of design engineers left to work in the US. At any one time there are about 3000 to 5000 Australians in Silicon valley for this very reason, but I've met Australian engineers in almost every company I've visited in the US. Even PCB layout guys are often called engineers in australia - this is quite different to the US where I've not met one with that title yet. In fact I've been here now for 7 years and worked in 3 companies and havent run across a non-degreed engineer yet. But I work in design, not maintenance or integration so maybe that explains it.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2012, 09:32:05 pm
content: I'm not going to trudge through 15 pages of posts, so this may have already been posted.Here is the definition of "engineer" in theMerriam-Webster(linky) dictionary. Anyone (regardless of training and/or education) that designs something falls in to paragraph 3(c). Thus they are, by definition, an engineer. If someone teaches themselves a branch of engineering, they fall into paragraph 3(b). If someone has no formal training, but through on the job training follows a branch of engineering, they fall into 3(b). They are all engineers.To simplify things, an engineer is someone that designs stuff. That really is it. That isn't to say that a degree is useless, but it doesn't make you an engineer.As a society, we place far too much weight on titles. We are so obsessed with titles that we have started putting certain qualifications on the meaning of the title; many, if not all, are arbitrary.That being said, I would say that there are definite skill levels involved. I can, with no formal training, put a few items together and make a handy widget. That doesn't qualify me to build a bridge.

author: damo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2012, 04:38:14 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 23, 2012, 04:34:42 pmI always thought it went like this: "Those that can do. Those that can't teach. Those that can't teach, coach sports"?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2012, 04:40:04 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on January 23, 2012, 08:42:00 pmOne reason why you see a lot of "Engineer" jobs that look like Tech's jobs is that the "suits" that run most of these firms don't know the difference.I mentioned in another posting that when I wanted to retire,my last job was advertised as an"Engineer",so we got a bundle of would-be "Design Engineers" with their brand new degree tucked in their hot little hands applying for a job which :(1) They did not possess the "core competencies" to do.(2) Would be a total waste of their training & no doubt formidable abilities in their real field.Most older Techs & Tech Officers could do the job as they,(which may come as a surprise to you),also have formal training in their field as well as many years of experience.Many younger Techs (who were trained by the "competency based training system",where you do a course,& if you have the required "competencies" at the end,you pass) would not have the abilities to do this job.I have met several who were trained this way who were sorely lacking in core theoretical knowledge-"Ohm's Law?,What's that?"Maybe the "dumbing down" of the Tech qualification is "International Best Practice" & is just bringing Australia in line with the rest of the world.Many old-time Engineers also could have done the job,as they had the combination of hands on ability & theoretical knowledge required,but most of them are at,or approaching retirement age & hopefully are in better jobs already.Most of the Engineers I worked with in the past would probably be "Systems Engineers",if you can call people who design & overview the construction of microwave broadband systems many hundreds of km long,analysis of the RF paths over this system & resolution of any problems which the Techs could not resolve,by such a name.Other Engineers were involved in the design & overview of Radio & TV Broadcasting Sites.Yet others were responsible for determining that the existing & new sites met the requirements of the licencing authority.( In many cases,Techs did the actual tests,but the"Ginger Beer" took the kicks if any mistakes were made-not that Techs ever made mistakes).OK,these Engineers "strung together" stuff made by others to make a system,but is this any less design than sitting in a Lab designing ICs?Although they aren't EEs,are the guys who test bridges to determine their structural integrity,any less Engineers than the guy who designed it?VK6ZGO

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2012, 05:30:17 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 24, 2012, 04:40:04 amWhen I went through tech training we were within about last 2 years to do component level faultfinding. The college had decided by about 91 that it was no longer worth it as all the tech's were doing by then was board swapping. As I said in a previous thread, by about that time IMO there was a serious decline in the call for Tech's or TO's. I think you've pointed to a real problem in some of the western economies in that the jobs that engineering schools are preparing the grad's for are just not there like they once were... so everyone's fighting over whats left... or going to where the jobs really are.Quote from: vk6zgo on January 24, 2012, 04:40:04 amI think they are EE's - infact those were the type of guys that suggested I go back to school. I view microwave engineering as one of the trickier branches. We were installing feedhorns at the time that CSIRO had designed. There was quite alot of calculation to do in terms of microwave system performance specs, and peoples balls were also on the line if they didn't get that right during testing. They were trying to hit contracted specs while being overseen, and you could see it was stressing them to demonstrate that. I suspect the guys at CSIRO were a few cuts above the rest of us though. Maybe I've been in the US too long now but I still think most tech's in Aus realise that the bit of paper is the ticket even if they wont say that out loud during the tech tea breaks... at least thats the way I always thought about the issue.I always thought I would regret it if I didnt get that bit of paper. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that its not necessary. I wonder if you had your time over what you would tell a younger version of yourself to do?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2012, 07:11:04 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on January 24, 2012, 05:30:17 amI pretty much covered that in reply # 168,yeah,it would have been nice,but,oh,well,it didn't happen!The Tech training regime you describe is criminal! I bet the real reason was so they could save money!That type of thing does not bear any relationship to the kind of training which was the norm prior to the loony 80s & 90s!Thankfully,you had the brains to come out as a good Tech,& then to go on to do your Degree.Many did not,& account for some of the brain-dead so-called Techs around!Every job,except one,I've had in the time since they made this nonsense comment entailed component level fault finding.For instance,the last job I had, entailed finding the source of built-in faults in Radio transmitters made in the dear old People's Republic,& allegedly designed by Engineers.The things were riddled with faults,mainly due to lack of Quality Control,but others were design faults,including some which were due to a fundamental misunderstanding of the requirements for the device to perform as required.We persevered for some time with trying to get Engineering backup from China,then gave up & fixed the mongrel things ourselves!The so-called "Engineers" obtained 1kW output by the simple expedient of paralleling two nominal 300w amplifiers to get 600w,then paralleling the result with a similar pair to give,supposedly,1200W,a margin of 200W.The original 300w stages were really,2x 150W amps in parallel so these had to be balanced first,otherwise it would cook the unbalance load ,which was underrated,so the two halves had to be within 1dB at the operating frequencyIf not,you cooked the load,the amp would die,& the unbalanced load for the 600W parallel pair would also cook,so on.Needless to say,the amps were nowhere near the required frequency response--some were up to 4dB low!-AAARGH!!To add insult to injury,there was an ALC system,that when the Tx output fell,increased the drive toallthe amps,making sure they would cook!Another sweet trick was the Op Amp which was part of this ALC system that would go into oscillation at various power settings & Amplitude Modulate the Tx with a rail-to-rail 88kHz squarewave! again,AAAARRRRRGGGGHHH!There's more! but this wasn't supposed to be my RANT!I and the other bloke, analysed these heaps of faeces,fixed the faults,redesigned as necessary,& we never called ourselves Engineers!This is the sort of stuff that old school Techs did all the time,so it freaks me out when some people on this forum sneer at Techs.Back in the day,we didn't call ourselves Engineers either,& we had plenty of respect for the Degree qualified Engineers we worked with.These "Ginger Beers" would pull up at some site out in the bush,in a red dust covered Landcruiser,& annoy the hell out of us,but it was nice to know they were around!VK6ZGO

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2012, 07:56:49 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 24, 2012, 07:11:04 amTechs have suffered the same fate as engineers... just been reduced to increasingly more mundane tasks like PC repair.I remember years ago that one of ministers for trade (Button was his name I think) said that the electronics engineering industry in Australia was essentially designed to fail. I guess if you look at the decline in jobs and training he was right. A shame because if you took the number of british and australian engineers out of the US you would have a medium sized city.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2012, 09:24:53 am
content: I grew up in the city of Cambridge, My grandfather was a professor of architecture and held the Bartlett chair until he died.I mixed with many of the high ranking research fellow's etc and met famous ones as well like Steven Hawkins.At no time did any of them talk about the merits of whether they were engineers or not to many to call them an engineer would have been an insult, engineers to them wore greasy boiler suits.They did discourse on topics like the color of tie worn or rather light or dark blue or none at all.To Many an Ma meant you were only fit to be a politician or civil servant, you had to have a Bsc to be a scientist or Msc.Of course the University of Cambridge is known as the KGB spy school but that would put you in the dark blue camp of bum boys and politicians.

author: Polossatik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 07:35:50 pm
content: sorry to skip 14 pages.Just a bit of poking to add:disclaimer: I'm only talking about the "engineer" title here in our education system in Belgium. Maybe a lot of the engineers who get an engineer degree might not pass the test for the OP. donno.I have no formal education in software (or any university degree for that matter), but currently i'm (internally known as) the top expert of my area of expertise in a fortune 100 software company.do i call myself an engineer? no, it's not on my card , nor do have any intention of doing such thing as it simply irrelevant for me.do i get introduce sometimes a "here is an engineer that will help you" yes, quite often, especially to clientsdo a lot of my coworkers have a engineer degree? yes, the majorityAre they technically better or worse than me ? that depends on the co worker (like i'm sure numerous people before in this thread have said, a nice piece of paper does not warrant the dude/gal is not a complete idiot.) and the area of expertise called in. I'm a big 0 in big parts of our product stack, as you would expect from any highly specialized person.Besides the "title" you "earn" when doing a formal engineer degree, the term "engineer" is often (ab)used to simply state "here is a technical person who knows a thing or 2 about this stuff and might be able to help you" , kind as a "short cut" for "he's good at what he's doing".While the OP might be mad at the fact some people without formal "approval" call them selfs (or being presented as) an engineer, I can vouch for the fact that there are a lot of crap "real" engineers who have the nice habit of waiving with paper credentials instead of knowledge and simply don't grasp the fact that "self thought" is a valid (and oftenveryhard ) way of getting knowledge .One thing that stands out however in my 18 years of work experience, people who DO know their stuff almost never waive "paper titles" around.If you are in a technical meeting with me and the moment you start to do that, well , you to the "fail" side in my book , as I mostly seen that behavior with idiots who knew jack sh*t.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 09:10:17 pm
content: This thread is dead and needs to stay that way.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 09:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: slateraptor on February 05, 2012, 09:10:17 pmstill on that killing stuff theme, eh Slateraptor?

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 11:25:30 pm
content: Hi all,Have I any Engineering Qualifications (of any kind) = noAm I an engineer = Absolutely yes.Why: Since 1984 in the Oil & Gas industry hands-on building, testing, designing, repairing, installing, prototyping pcb's & full systems. Managing software engineering teams, managing production teams, managing R&D teams................all of which gives me the right to call myself an engineer. Anyone who says I'm not is insulting me.Nuff said.Ian.

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 11:31:05 pm
content: you know when you say a word over and over it starts sounding weird, well the word "engineer" is starting to look weird.talking of weird, I had this dream before where someone was holding up a lightening rod and directing lightening into an active volcano to hit myhouse and even though it was obvious what was happening if you looked through the window no one would believe me.I say "before" cause I've been ill and sleeping in the day just so you know.

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 11:42:49 pm
content: Quote from: PStevenson on February 05, 2012, 11:31:05 pmSemantic satiation-- always good fun, and a handy sign you need to take a break from what you're doing

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 11:45:50 pm
content: Quote from: PStevenson on February 05, 2012, 11:31:05 pmI was going to suggest cutting down on liquor and rich food prior to your clarification!

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2012, 11:58:40 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on February 05, 2012, 11:45:50 pmto quote Jim Lahey "I'm laying off the food for the moment, it was clouding my mindthe liquor is doing the talking now" haha

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2012, 02:49:35 am
content: Quote from: baljemmett on February 05, 2012, 11:42:49 pmSeems more like redundancy--why would you need to use both the words "weird" & "engineer"!

author: Randall W. Lott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 06:50:32 am
content: I'm a janitorial engineer. I methodologically compile malodorous specimen.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 06:54:05 am
content: <sigh>. not this thread again.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 07:56:14 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:--When I was in school, I noticed that the Engineering and Physics students had very little time for socializing. They also had a much more practical, and to my mind, realistic and rational world view. This in turn led many of the Liberal Arts majors, who obtained degrees based on doing "book reports", to conclude that Engineering and Physics majors were not very smart. Indeed it is possible to bullsh*t your way through a Political Science course. Courses in Calculus or Programming, or even Business Administration, not so much."I'll have the Alfalfa sandwich, and the smashed yeast"Woody Allen 1935 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Kilroy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 03:45:55 pm
content: I have a friend that is a gas station attendant. He never spent a day in any institution of higher learning. When folks ask what he does he tells them he is a Petroleum Transfer Engineer.Not really lying, I guess...

author: Chet T16
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 05:39:11 pm
content: Quote from: Kilroy on February 28, 2012, 03:45:55 pmFuel Injection Engineer :p

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 06:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on February 28, 2012, 07:56:14 amThere is no such thing as politicalscience

author: Randall W. Lott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 07:31:15 pm
content: The alcoholics at my college call themselves "fluid flow test engineers".

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 08:58:04 pm
content: someone needs to take this thread out the back and shoot it in the head

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 09:13:38 pm
content: Quote from: PStevenson on February 28, 2012, 08:58:04 pmWhy?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2012, 10:01:25 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on February 28, 2012, 09:13:38 pmIf you thought like an Engineer, perhaps you would understand.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 08:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 18, 2012, 11:56:56 pmSo, unless you drive a train ( steam powered type ) or run any other kind of engine ( like a big engine in a power plant ) that means ALL of us...That is where the word 'engineer' comes from. Someone who drives and maintains an engine. ( in british-english the 'engine' is the locomotive of a train )

author: rbola35618
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2012, 03:48:42 pm
content: Sorry for commenting so late in the discussion. In my work (we do work for NASA), if you have a BSEE (Bachelors of Science in Electrical Engineering) you are called an Engineer. If you have a BSET (Bachelors of Science in Electronic Technology) you are called a Technologist. A Technologist typically works under or is lead by the Engineer. So perhaps the Technologist title should be used for non BSEE?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2012, 04:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: rbola35618 on April 05, 2012, 03:48:42 pmThere's also BSEET where you have a Bachelor of Science in Electronics Engineering Technology

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2012, 05:22:56 pm
content: Fred Dibna. Now there was an Engineer. No degree but a consummate engineer. Isambard Kingdom Brunel one of the greatest engineers the Builders of the pyramids more great engineers. And at the end of the day what in a name or title. Some people need to get over themselves.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2012, 02:29:52 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 04, 2012, 08:41:46 pmActually, according to Merriam-Webster, the english word is a derivative of the french wordenginand its first known english use was in 1300s.It was initially used to name people that designed warengines(that's the same etymology for portuguese as well).I don't design war engines, therefore everything I believed is gone... My diploma is fake...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2012, 03:31:38 am
content: engineer is from the word.... somebody who build engine. to take it to broader view, engine is not just diesel or car engine, engine can also means a working circuit in ee, or a working piece of code (main core algorithm). i believe somebody who can build an engine, is... engineer. the better engine he build, the better engineer he is. cert otoh, is just diplomatic/politics, imo.i have native farmer here who built palm oil carrier (looks like lorry) diy out of scrapped tractor part i guess, going around sometime, and surely the diy carrier looks funny. but me who have studied those kind of thing got astonished, i will call him engineer, me with cert just a.... undergraduate. anybody who deny it its just ego, thinking with their hard earned spent money in 3-5years time to get that piece of paper. thats it. i never care too much about this thread, but it keeps going on and on.ps: and what an engine do for?... to help people to solve problem (or to get more money into their belly). imo.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2012, 03:49:22 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 09, 2012, 03:31:38 amNever a good idea to swallow coins. You'll get much better nutrition from Ham, cheese and tomato sandwiches.This thread really needs to expire.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2012, 04:31:32 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on April 09, 2012, 03:49:22 amI dunno, Unc,I agree about the cheese & tomato,but most of the"Hams"I know are pretty unappetising!

author: BBQdChips
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2012, 04:52:55 pm
content: In my travels, I've seen some pretty capable engineers, with or without papers. I've also seen some of the most overrated, common-sense-less idiots as well. Sadly, those make as much of a bad impression on me as the good ones make a good impression. As school requirements keep dropping, they seem to be turning out a lot more of the latter, and far fewer of the former.Some time ago while discussing hiring a part time person for nights, a former employee of my company mentioned that his boy could use some part time work, and that he was a senior in high school, good with his hands, dilligent, etc. He said also that his son was accepted to an engineering program and would be going to college in the upcoming spring. Not exactly what I was looking for but meh, I'll give it a shot and see how it works out.While working with him, here's a few excerpts of conversations.Describing dimensions for a part: This part is xx.400 inches... .400? Is that a half? Silent blank stare ensues from me... A quarter? ... Ok, just go do something else...While discussing coordinate dimensions: Ok, move to X of ___ and Y of ___... pause for obvious look of confusion.... What's X? You're joking right? Cartesian coordinate system? We've never done that...Accepted now mind you. This kid has absolutely not one stitch of math skills, he honestly doesn't know basic math. Handwriting is totally illegible. Has no concept that .125 is 1/8th,and makes no connection between the two. And aspires to be an engineer... Ahh, I'm thinking it's a bit late to start looking at that path. Might better look for a job digging ditches.Maybe a little A.D.D. can be a good thing. Like for engineering. In my opinion, it is those people with the degree and education, butalsowho consider their job to be their hobby, to be far and away the best at whatever they do. Engineering or otherwise.But to address Post #1, I'd feel a lot more respect for these people with degrees, if when they demonstrated a clear ability to be a moron, someone took their credentials away.

author: Ajahn Lambda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2012, 06:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: BBQdChips on April 09, 2012, 04:52:55 pmHmm...Yeah, it's sort of a blessing and a curse at the same time, the AD(H)D. When it lets me focus on what I need to do, it's awesome. When it doesn't, forget it; I might as well go watch Tiny Toons while sipping Jack Daniels.In fact, I'd go as far as to say my AD(H)D is/was the underlying reason I quit during my senior year of EE, but there were several things going on at once to make it a 'perfect storm.' I do want to finish that degree or a related one, but it will have to wait until I have the $$$. The real bitch was that I wasn't diagnosed with AD(H)D until my Junior year.So, do I call myself an engineer? No. I don't feel the need to, and no one asks, but if they want to know the truth, I'll tell them. I'm only 11 credit hours away from my BS degree; I already have my Associate of Applied Science in Automotive Engineering Technology, but since it was a community college degree, I don't typically count it for much. It's not lying at all to say I have an engineering background. My dad's a mechanical engineer, I've been neck-deep in engineering stuff since I was in grade school, and I can keep up with most EE graduates without a problem. Since dropping, I've learned more on my own than I ever did in EE classes, so maybe in the pure knowledge realm, I'm way ahead. But dammit, I still want that f*@&ing piece of paper!QuoteOh man, if only.... They take away a doctor's license when they screw up, right? Can the same be done with those with PE certs?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2012, 03:35:47 am
content: Quote from: SigEpBlue on April 09, 2012, 06:02:35 pmThat is the defining point about a "Professional Engineer" they are held accountable to their registration body, similar to doctors and other community facing professionals. They can be deregistered for misconduct, or lack of skill. Holding the title infers trust due to the oversight of the registering body.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2012, 04:20:49 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on January 23, 2012, 04:35:40 amInterestingly in this country the complete reverse is true. Due to prescriptive advertising/hiring guidelines an employer wanting a 10 year industry experienced technologist will place something like this on their requirements:Degree qualification and 5 years experience or equivalentWhile actually not wanting someone with a degree.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2012, 04:27:03 am
content: Quote from: Armin_Balija on January 19, 2012, 05:12:22 amBe careful, I have never seen Dave claim to be a "Professional Engineer", as he points out that specific claim is restricted to members of specific professional bodies.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineers_AustraliaOf note to this discussion is their distinction between the skill/responsibility levels of their members, designated as Professional Engineer, Engineering Technologist and Engineering Officer.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2012, 05:21:41 am
content: Dave is a professional engineer, but not a Professional Engineer. Legal titles exist to serve legal bodies but one can indeed be an engineer without having a professional title. The difference in what the noun and adjective are makes all the difference.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2012, 05:33:42 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 10, 2012, 04:27:03 amIn several decades, I have yet to see a electronics engineering job advertised in this country thatrequiressomeone to be aProfessional Engineer, with accreditation from the IEA. I don't even recall seeing it as a "desirable" in fact.And like I think I said, only very occasionally do I see a mention of "eligible of membership of the IEA". i.e. you don't even have to be a member, you just have to eligible!As always YMMV in your own country and industry.Dave.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2012, 08:01:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 10, 2012, 05:33:42 amIndeed, advertisements for electronics jobs requiring full member status would number in the single digits, and those only requiring eligibility are quite unusual already.You could do well to question Engineers Australia and ask why their representation in the Electronics area of practice is so poor, especially given the increasing level of regulation the market faces. Given you strongly represent one side of the view and have a large audience, they might be able to provide an interesting interview.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2012, 08:58:28 pm
content: I once had the engineering dean at a uni in sydney tell me IEAust was a club for mechanical and civil engineers. When Australia still had the IREE they at least had a journal that was worth a read. Nowadays you are better off joining IEEE.Government jobs are the ones that usually ask for eligibility for IEAust. They never care if you actually had IEAust membership as long as you had a BEng. However if you had a BSc in electronics you probably would have needed IEAust membership because that would of put to bed the question of eligibility. Same with the old technical officer spots. My old boss had to have his certificates reassessed by IEAust to prove equivalency for a 2 year diploma and his eligibility for the old TO posts.On that note there is a ultra rare radiocomms cadet engineer post available to all the young'ens in Uni right now with an interest in radio;http://www.apsjobs.gov.au/SearchedNoticesView.aspx?Notices=10569612%3A1&mn=JobSearch

author: Kyl8145
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 10:42:21 am
content: Hello all, I had stumbled across this thread while browsing Google and thought I could contribute an opinion. I know it is over a year old, but I did read the whole thread and was intrigued by it. I am right now an aspiring engineer, but not yet what I would call any engineer. I agree that whether someone is considered an engineer or not should not solely rely on formal qualifications but also skills and capabilities. That said, my understanding of an engineer has always been that it involves a specific skillset for a person. Nowhowthe person acquires that skillset may not necessarily involve a formal education, but it is a skillset nonetheless. I get the impression that some people think that if one is into anything technical, even hardcore, that this makes them an engineer if they are skilled, but I would have to respectfully disagree with that assertion. For example, being highly skilled at electronics for example does not make one an electrical engineer unto itself.My understanding has always been that engineering is generally defined as one who has the skills to apply knowledge of mathematics and the sciences to the solving of problems in society. This may involve anything from designing a dam to hold back millions of gallons of water to designing a bridge to designing a jet engine or a new microprocessor. But what is involved in all such activities is being able to apply advanced mathematics and scientific knowledge to the solving of such problems.As such, a person who would formally be called an "engineer" would be someone who has such knowledge. This generally means someone with a knowledge of calculus, differential equations, linear algebra, etc...along with physics and more advanced physics courses depending, sometimes chemistry, and then of course all the advanced technical courses in their field that involve the application of said mathematics and science knowledge. Without this base of knowledge, my understanding is that it is impossible for one to be an actual engineer, because if they do not know the base of knowledge of mathematics and science, they will not be able to apply said mathematics and science to the application of solving problems.I think a problem that happens occasionally that I noticed myself at university was that there are some people who are really technologists or even technicians who call themselves engineers when they are not. For example, I saw technologists who repeatedly referred to themselves as engineers. Not meaning to demean technologists at all as they play a vital role, but the education requirements for a technologist are not the same as those of an engineer. The technologist does not have near the same math and science requirements. This then gets the engineering students bent out of shape.There can be very technically talented people who are great technicians and technologists, great at electronics, mechanics, etc...but that isn't unto itself engineering. I think a secondary problem that happens also that I noticed amongst engineer students is a bit of an elitist attitude towards technologists and technicians, who then get upset by this and thus point out how oftentimes engineers don't have what they see as any practical knowledge. I think on that, something people should realize is that engineering deals a lot with theory and applying science and math. As such, it can get very detached from the practical, depending. For example, you might have a mechanical engineer who specializes in engines who say knows all about the combustion process, how to design combustion chambers, etc...(for example, there are whole textbooks devoted just to combustion chamber design I believe), but yet you crack open the hood of the car and they're lost at how to fix a basic mechanical problem. Or a computer engineer who knows all sorts of math and theory for designing microprocessors, but they get a basic computer glitch and can be lost.Generally the way I see it is that the engineer is the one who takes raw science and raw math and then applies them with known technical knowledge to produce all of the "stuff" that makes society work, and also advances that technical knowledge. Technicians are people who are trained to maintain and repair that stuff. And technologists sort of bridge a gap between the two. For example, take the electrical grid that powers our country. There is a big difference between the engineers who design the power plants, the electrical wiring and so forth, versus the technicians who can work on the plants and repair things and the technicians who can repair the wires when the weather knocks them out, and so forth. There is a difference between the engineers who design a rocket versus the technicians who work on it. There is a difference between the technicians who work on nuclear power plants versus the actual nuclear engineers, etc...Sometimes, the word "engineer" is used to apply to things that are not academically engineering, such as a train engineer or in certain technician specialties, but generally, if someone says they are in engineering, one assumes that which involves hard science and mathematics. Another comparison could be the difference between a medical doctor and a nurse.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:03:21 am
content: Quote from: Kyl8145 on February 17, 2014, 10:42:21 amA practicing electronics design engineer rarely uses "raw science and raw math".YMMV vary of course, but if you did of survey of how much "raw math and science" they use in the course of your work, I think you'll find it's very little.

author: Kyl8145
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:27:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 11:03:21 amDo you mean someone who has to get (what in America at least) is formally known as a degree in electrical engineering, who specializes in electronics? If so, why is it that the requirements for the degree require the math and science if the person doesn't need it for designing electronics? Or is it that the math is incorporated into understanding how to do the electronics? For example, I know that to properly understand circuits, at least as taught in the engineering curriculums, one needs to know differential equations, which requires calculus.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:30:59 am
content: I stopped calling myself an engineer a long time ago. Whoever wants the word can have it.re: math and scienceIt depends on the application. I think you'll find in the real world there isn't a lot of that sort of stuff, and what little there is you would usually just lookup. My particular work was always heavy in robotics, electro-optics, vision systems, etc, and was typically in a pretty R&D kind of environment. I ended up doing quite a bit of nuts and bolts math, applied physics, etc over the years. It really depends what you end up doing. Regardless, you'd better know it because it does come up from time to time even in straightforward jobs, and the guys that can consistently think their way out of trouble do well in the industry. The guys that can't become the warm bodies that just sit there, plug and chug and never amount to anything more than the guy you toss some work to so he stays busy, keeps out of your hair, and lets you can get back to doing real work. I think anyone who's worked in the field knows EXACTLY what and who I'm talking about.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:37:32 am
content: In theory you are only allowed to call yourself an electronics engineer when you graduated from an electronics engineering program that grants you that title. Here in the Netherlands there is some confusion because we have two titles very similar, one called ing. and on ir. both are pronounced engineer but the first is a BScEE and the latter a MScEE. So is a BScEE and electronics engineer in your country or only the MScEE? Both are 4 year to 5 year studies and have math but the level differs, the MScEE is more academic while the BScEE has also more practical applications.Then from my own experience I can only confirm that there is a big difference between theory and practice, I have had designs from MScEE's that on paper were beautifull but on a breadboard performed as garbage.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:59:16 am
content: Quote from: Kyl8145 on February 17, 2014, 11:27:59 amDon't ask me, I've never taught at university, nor have I been a dean who sets the curriculum, you'll have to ask them.My guess would be (aside from that's the way it's always been) that they deem the "basics" of engineering to be heavily theoretical, and a good foundation here is important.Of course it is important stuff, but they seem to think it's really really really super mega important that you need to know how to start everything from and to derive Maxwells equations, even though the fact remains that probably the majority of practicing electronics design engineers will never need that advanced math and science in their career. At least as taught in many cases.*insert fundamental education buzz words here*Heck, I was forced to take civil engineering and mechanical engineering classes "just in case" I changed my mind in the first two years and wanted to move from EE to civil or mechanical.And therein lies one of the problems. Probably the majority of EE degrees are very generic, so they teach the fundamentals that will apply across many fields and allow you to solve theoretical problems at a deep level.But hey, I'm not saying it's wrong, just pointing out that IME most will never use it in general electronics engineering.Although in practice it's impossible to have any degree teach every required skill across a massively diverse industry. There are engineers who will deal with advanced math and science concepts daily, and those like me who have never solved an integral in 20 years, nor worked with any other EE's who have had to do that either. It entirely depends on what part of the industry you end up in.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 12:26:44 pm
content: Engineers come in many flavours. Design,development, application and production, the list continues ad infinitum. If one wants to be snotty about it I guess one could call oneself a Dr. of engineering if you have the relevant degree.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 12:30:39 pm
content: From what I have been told:Academics invent new stuff, engineers turn ideas into real products.Then again: an engineering diploma doesn't necessarily mean someone can do engineering work. A couple of years ago I worked with a guy who had an engineering degree but couldn't do anything the degree stood for. It's mind boggling how he ever managed to get the degree! In the end we let him do test work (a monkey who pushes buttons). Since then I let applicants take a test as part of their job interview.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 12:34:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 11:59:16 amIt all depends on your role at hand. I've worked in RF and antenna design where you needed to understand what Maxwell's equations mean, so you can be productive with the software design tools, and I've worked in consumer gear where all I've ever needed was Ohms Law and maths that I can solve in my head (on the few occasion's where I just didn't whack in 10k and call it done!)I now manage and hire Engineers, and typically the fact they have a degree shows me they are smart enough to learn. Graduates are like new sponges, useless until they soak up some knowledge. But once you're into 5 plus years of experience I care not about your formal qualifications, but rather what your work history is like.Get a degree, or cut your chops in the real world, either way, imho, gives you the right to call yourself Engineer.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:05:01 pm
content: Not a 100% on topic and similar to what the guy from the Netherlands said, only worse: Here in Austria there is form of high school called HTL,"Höhere technische Lehranstalt". If you get your high school degree from there, you can call yourself engineer, "Ingenieur". If you have an engineering degree from an actual University, you are a "Diplom-Ingenieur". Leads to some confusion in the other countries, when they hire an 18 year old engineer and realize he doesn't know much.The word "engineer" developed from people operating engines. Historically they were self-taught mechanics turned tinkerer. The academisation came later and stayed truer to the latin stem "ingeniare" - to contrive, which is a mental thing rather than a phyical. Eventhough the proto indo-european origin is, "gena" - creation (as in 'genesis', 'genos' and 'gene').. So in principle people who call themselves engineers are right as they create and contrive stuff.However the meaning of the word engenieer has changed. Most people expect a university degree when they hear it. If you don't have a degree, just call yourself an "electronics professional" and everything is good. Then everyone will be happy. In some countries "engineer" is a specific legal term and it is a criminal offence to use it without having the formal education, regardless of being at a job interview or in a strip club.I don't think it is elitist to ask of people to use the title according to what is required legally and what most people will assume it means. But being in academia for some time I can say I've seen the biggest dumbasses get their degree, or habilitation for that matter, and very creative intelligent people fail to - not that I'm one of either.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 17, 2014, 12:30:39 pmNot really, all a degree (or any course) qualification means is that you learned how to pass the tests, and that you stuck it out for the X years required. It does not automatically mean you have any useful aptitude in the subject.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 01:05:07 pmSo well put!Quote from: con-f-use on February 17, 2014, 01:05:01 pm

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 06:33:08 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 01:05:07 pmSadly thats so true. School only prepares people to pass exams, not to be creative thinkers. Explains why i had such difficult time at school.Mind wonders thinking what else i could use that formula for.....

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 07:05:55 pm
content: Quote from: Wartex on January 18, 2012, 11:56:56 pmNot having a scope, not knowing how to solder is no problem, just do your 4 or 5 years.'engineer' is no protected title, nor a protected function description. Everyone is free to call himself or his company engineer. In our country, only ir, ing, msc, dr is protected.Since the title "sales engineer" exist, I think about the title "engineer" to have no value at all.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 07:24:17 pm
content: Quote from: Kyl8145 on February 17, 2014, 11:27:59 amyou only understand a circuit if you can explain how it works without having to resort to analogy like mathematics.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 07:25:55 pm
content: My old grandad was an Engineer - indeed, a Royal Engineer in the eighth army, fighting Rommel. I remember when I was a child and he was kicked out by his wife and ended up sharing our kids bedroom for a couple of nights, him chain smoking all night. We would ask him about war stories and he told us how the krauts would lay mines in the desert with booby trap mines underneath. He also told me how he and his comrades in the RE tricked Rommel over in Libya by making thousands of tanks and planes out of bits of wood and sheeting with camo paint, so the krauts reccy planes would report back with warnings of massive allied battalions ready to wipe them out. This was in the 1970's and still an official secret, it was only declassified recently, sadly after grandads death. He kept it secret from his own wife and kids as was ordered, but let us nippers know.After the war he was the best mechanical engineer bar none and refused to join commie unions in the '70s. He could handle any lathe, press, milling machine, and was a "Toolmaker". He even made me a whole Meccano set in his works down time in the old-school Red/Green as an add on to my modern Yellow/Blue proper set. (Sadly he made it with imperial rather than metric, lol!)He never had a degree. He did go to a good grammar school. The culling of grammar schools in the UK is the worst thing for public education and STEM "engineers"Elitists with pieces of paper are the last I would ever choose to work with.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 08:04:26 pm
content: Quote from: WIKIPEDIA on February 17, 2014, 07:25:55 pmThis is totally unexisting in Central Europe. Only Bachelor and Master, with the optional field added.

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 08:49:23 pm
content: People on this thread are bitching about not having a piece of paper, that does not really matter much, in their opinion.Since they are soo much better than a fully educated engineer getting that piece of paper should not be difficult.The fact that instead getting thateasily achievableeducation and title, people are bitching, whining and belittling other people's achievements makes me think that perhaps that education does matter and requires some real work, effort, skill and dedication.If you are really much smarter than a educated engineer getting a degree and a title would be a formality.Or you would feel so emotionally secure you don't need the acknowledgement of a title or bitch about it.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 09:15:16 pm
content: Quote from: FJV on February 17, 2014, 08:49:23 pmA great straw man argument, much like: if you aren't doing anything wrong why be afraid of surveillance. I've known many people who were brilliant in a field but didn't have a degree. Sometimes because they have a degree in a related field that suffices, other times they have a learning disability that precludes formal education or familial/financial commitments that prevent formal education.I'm not an engineer, nor claim to be. I'm a nanomaterials chemist. That being said my grandfather was an engineer for Ford, with no degree. His official title was engineer. After he retired, he kept doing contract work for Ford, repairing what the kids with a degree fucked up.There are a variety of ways to become an engineer. Just because it doesn't conform to the world view you bought into doesn't mean it's not correct. The fact is, there is NO replacement for experience. All a piece of paper does is guarantee you could pass tests in certain classes at one time.Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 09:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on February 17, 2014, 09:15:16 pmAnd I would be able to bet at very good odds that these brilliant people did not do a tenth of the whining, bitching and belittling as displayed in this tread.You know that thing about "being emotionally secure enough that you don't need the acknowledgement of a title or bitch about it."However for the huge majority education does matter.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 09:39:30 pm
content: Quote from: FJV on February 17, 2014, 08:49:23 pmYou missed the points made. Getting a degree requires skills in itself, the ability to memorise, work out how to pass the exams not neccessarily good for being and engineer or posessed by pracrtical engineers. I never did well in exams but I'm working as an engineer (note the "working as"). I was moved from the quality department to the engineering one in 3 years, my predecessor with all his so called qualifications (college only actually....) complemented me on my achievements and frankly I know is a bit envoius as it took him 4 years to get out of quality and into engineering and he did nothing but try.I get really pissed off with the way the word engineer has been abused and devalued, now every guy on the end of the phone is an engineer trying to sell you something as is every guy with a screw driver and a smartphone that is more important than the screw driver so he can call home and get told how to do the job.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 10:03:10 pm
content: To 'bend a well known meme:the people with the engineering degree should not interrupt the people doing the actual engineering work...

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 10:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 17, 2014, 10:03:10 pmThe people that do the work are called: Technicians, when they cannot do the work anymore, they call the engineers.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:12:13 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 17, 2014, 10:03:10 pmOn a serious note: going through engineering college does give people math skills and 'tools' to work in a structured way. Over the years I have come across several intelligent, capable self-taught people who screwed their projects up because they knew too little about math and how to tackle a big project.edit: added self-taught to make the point clear

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:16:55 pm
content: Quote from: FJV on February 17, 2014, 08:49:23 pmI don't recall anyone here actually saying that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:21:53 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on February 17, 2014, 09:30:02 pmThey would be wrong. At a fundamental level, education is never time or money wasted.

author: Kyl8145
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:27:26 pm
content: I would have to disagree with the assertion by many in this thread that getting an engineering degree just means one showed they can pass tests. A good engineering program is a lot more than just tests. There's extensive homework problems that you must do and turn in which affect your grade, lab projects that you must do where you apply the knowledge and these also affect your grade, there are more extensive projects you must work on here and there, and then there are also exams. In the engineering university I attended for a short while, you have a senior capstone project in your fifth year that you must work on where you apply all of your acquired knowledge, and then you also have a co-op, where you have to go out into the work world and work with companies for a bit.

author: Kyl8145
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on February 17, 2014, 07:25:55 pmOne thing, but when you say "mechanical engineer," do you mean an actual mechanical engineer or a machinist? Because here in the U.S. at least, those are two different occupations. The engineering field most related to machinist would probably be manufacturing engineering.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 12:19:15 am
content: I was one of the aforementioned kids who was fascinated by electronics from a young age, built all kinds of projects from trashpicked parts, etc. Went to a Vo-Tech HS, and studied electronics for 4 years. Went to university to study EE, but left after a year to take a job offer doing the exact kind of hands-on prototype development and research work that I eventually wanted to get into after earning the degree. As life went on, between job, marriage, kid, etc. I never did go back to finish the degree, and doubt I will now in my mid 40s.FWIW, my current job title is "Senior Research Engineer", even though I have no formal degree in EE or any other discipline. That's the title that goes with my position, which I moved into replacing a guy with an MSEE.The kicker to this whole story is that I work for an R+D lab, at an ABET accredited university that has several engineering degree programs! If giving a guy with not much more than a Vo-Tech education (and a lot of years actually doing electronics) the title "Engineer" is good enough for an ENGINEERING SCHOOL, then how can anyone complain that this is somehow wrong or misleading?Engineer is just a word, that describes the work one does. If you do engineering work, you are an engineer. A formal degree gives you the ability to append, BS, MS, PhD, whatever after your name, in places where you want to emphasize your formal education for whatever purpose.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 12:26:00 am
content: Quote from: Kyl8145 on February 17, 2014, 11:49:31 pmI don't know the difference, but yes he was a hands on workshop engineer also known as a toolmaker. He was known as "Mac the Miller" as the go-to guru for all things involving lathes and milling machines, and could turn any draughtsmans drawing into a precision part in quick order. Of course this was back before the days of CAD/CAM/CNC. He would be called on to make any precision parts or prototypes and not have to do the boring factory assembly line repetitive stuff. He used a slide rule and engineers tables to work out geometry, spindle speeds, etc. also used precision micrometers and flatplate references, etc. He was paid more than anyone else in our village (most of it he wasted on ale).He was definitely an engineer. He could also speak Italian, German, French, and was learning Arabic before he died. Also, like I said, he was in the Royal Engineers and Eighth Army and defeated Rommel inEl Alamein. He built and destroyed bridges, cleared land mines, and made fake batallions. He had a bullet through his cheeks and survived with just scars.He was more of an engineer than any prima donna elitist wanker with a bit of paper. He didn't understand electrickery though and never learned to drive!!!

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 12:41:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 11:21:53 pmIt is time and money wasted if you can get a better education for the same time and money by doing something else.

author: Kyl8145
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 12:48:10 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on February 18, 2014, 12:26:00 amNot meaning to knock on him at all, but he sounds to me like he was more a world-class machinist than an engineer. To be an engineer (at least in the context that I am using the word) would mean that he designed things, be they engines, industrial equipment, etc...not made them. For example, you might have a guy who can design an engine, but ask him to actually machine any parts and he could be at a total loss.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 02:44:38 am
content: There is a guy where I work who on paper is not qualified to do an install and certification of some specialized equipment. But the guys who come in to do the work are. They have said that after assisting them a couple of times that he could handle the job alone. So, who is the qualifier and what are his qualifications? That's the real question.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 08:02:19 am
content: I noticed last night on a uk online paper that that recent sheila multiple killer in Alaska , its husband was a refuse sanitation engineer or something like that? , anyway , = "Works at the Tip/dump" .Many a time back in my day as a Heavy industries Mechanic and also down to the small stuff or named a Everything Mechanic maybe who only ever reached the proficiency level in grade after the apprenticeship and stayed there since forced retirement , I could not count how many times a "A" grade who were paid more and had that 'status' were asking me how to do things , welding , hydraulics , 12v/24v stuff you name it , and most times I was flabbergastedof how totally useless many were with all that "brains" yet could not open a wet paper bag even if it had a hole already started , reminds me of somewhere also it does..I like Bananas too yaknow .ps> I want a banana smiley/icon thingy for the forum , like a small monkey eating one ...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 11:43:06 am
content: Well I'm getting fed up with "gas engineers", they are just plumbers, they don't design the boiler !

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:01:49 pm
content: Most important lesson in any engineering degree... CONTROL THEORY. It teaches you how to think. It relates to everything... electronics, business processes, how to run your finances, how to maintain your car, even your relationships.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:07:14 pm
content: hm ,relationships + control theory, don't tell the misses that she won't understand what you mean.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:14:30 pm
content: I would say one in five embedded programmers know how to program. Many are just inept engineers working in disguise as embedded programmers.Some of the embedded C code written by engineers I have come across is simple appalling.There is no excuse for lack of coding standards, poor spelling, poor commenting, poor indentation, idiotic variable and function names, lack of consistency, lack of design and planning, lack of code reviews, lack of documentation, and lack of concern for the next poor bunny who has to take over the mess.It has been said for someone to take over horrible code is simply soul destroying.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:33:57 pm
content: Now that we have been told (i also am a qualified ee) that we are a) wankers, b) assholes, c) failures with a paper showing that like trained monkeys we learned to pass some tests, d) are unable to tell the cold end from the hot when grabbing a soldering iron ... and i am sure i missed a few ... let me ask this.- how is a sanitation engineer different from a toilet cleaner?- if an "engineer" is the guy who solders the wires together, then what are the guys who create the designs in the first place?When i say "designs" i don't mean a 3 transistor PCB. A _design_ to me would be mastering the full life cycle (**) from initial concept to final form - including but not limited to - say:-- an electric car; _not_ building one. Designing one from first principles with all math and physics properly analyzed and described. Because someone did it.-- a color TV; again, _not_ building one. Designing one from first principles. Because someone did it... and continuing in the same vein:-- a telemetry system for a deep space probe.-- the control system for a nuclear power station-- the avionics, navigation, attitude and aspect control system for a modern commercial jet-- etc etc etc(**) to me it is a prerequisite that "an engineer" can explain - correctly! - what constitutes a "product life cycle".Those, to me, are the job of an engineer. Granted, many qualified engineers do something different and not all who work on the topics mentioned (successfully or otherwise) are qualified engineers. But anyone who does needs to have the skills. I have worked mostly for big companies where i have recruited more people than i can recall or count. The positions have been mostly suitable for university graduates but that has very seldom been a formal requirement. Accordingly, I have recruited all kinds of applicants with and without degrees. Yet the trend is clear - for jobs requiring the ability to manipulate complex abstract concepts, those with college level education tend to show better readiness. Not exclusively but predominantly. There is a filtering bias in effect; people whose aptitudes favor working with abstractions tend to be successful in tasks where that aptitude is rewarded. In other words, if you hate theory, college sucks. If you fail college, it is worthless. Elementary psychology. Maybe too elementary, but the tendency is there.Properly, engineering is an applied science. Fundamental science creates hypotheses and then validates them with experiments to add to the body of theory. The domain of the engineer is the theory and how to apply it to come up with practical designs. The work tends to be almost all math and validating/documenting the design process. Like experimenting in science, prototyping in engineering is used to validate practical designs but actual manufacturing/practice is not engineering. Failure to grasp this causes disillusionment once the truth dawns in the middle of the first semester in the college.The domain of a technician is the practice or how to turn designs into tangible things. There may be math involved. The job may be a complex and difficult one requiring considerable skills in various arts. But it is different from engineering.The majority on this forum appear not to understand the above difference and consistently confuse creating a design with building a device. With but few exceptions the participants in this thread have described a technician in the role of an engineer. I take a trivial example: during my active years as a practicing design engineer i needed among other things to take a deep interest in the stability and durability of solder joints in hostile environments. Mastering that issue took some significant theory on the metallurgy, mechanics and thermodynamics of soldering - for both manual and various machine processes. During the entire time nobody suggested that i should grab a soldering iron and try my hand at it - that would have been entirely pointless. Yet i can actually solder well enough to take on anyone, whatever the tools and materials. It just was not in that job description and would have constituted a waste of time.But then of course the anglo-saxon? way of confusing formal qualification and "just doing it" under one umbrella guarantees that the scene will be one big melting pot of more or less skilled blokes calling themselves whatever the hell they like. In the end it doesn't really mean anything anymore.Apologies for the above and bowing out now. Rant on.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:37:58 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on February 17, 2014, 10:05:07 pmWho then stare at it because they don't know how to use a soldering iron or what a scope is for.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 18, 2014, 01:14:30 pmYou would say or you are saying?I say you just plucked that out of the wind.QuoteAnd some i have seen - written by engineers - is so sublime in its execution that it leaves the reader in silent despair of ever achieving the same.Your point then is?QuoteYou are right, there isn't. And engineers are to blame for all of that? Or could it be that the company in question just hasn't reached the maturity level to master these things?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 18, 2014, 01:14:30 pmyup, we have an electronics subcontractor and the guy doing our stuff left, his software was never very good and the next guy just wants to rewrite it all.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 02:10:20 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 17, 2014, 10:03:10 pmSo it is your considered opinion that people with the degree spent all that time and effort to actually _become_ _incompetent_ at the job they studied for?Somehow i expected better of you ...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 02:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on February 18, 2014, 01:33:57 pmHere is how it is split up in my little world.Design engineer: designs the circuitry , from scratch , using simulators. Makes his own damn transistors.Validation engineer: verifies the brainfarts of the above on bench. Tortures the device until the magic smoke escapes. Points fingers at above and tells him where the design sucks.Application engineer: takes the validated device , creates a finished product with it. Selects parts around it, does all the calculations, simulations needed so the end product meets the customers criteria. This is also designing. Not a silicon design , but a product.Lab tech: takes the drawings from apps engineer , orders parts, keeps stock , solders parts. Rinse , repeat.Now, there is overlap.The design engineer frequently needs to wear the validation engineers hat. To assist a pure validation engineer.The validation engineer needs to wear the apps engineer hat and vice versa. If the app blows up because something was not caught in validation, or if it blows up because the apps overload it they need to bang their heads together.The apps engineer will cross check the validations work (like for repeated reverse current pulses in a switcher).All these guys are expected to be able to work as lab tech. They need to know how to order a part and put it on the board to verify a hypothesis in order to solve a problem. If you got a board with a chip under test with 100 wires, probes and whatnot connected you are not going to disconnect it to change a few resistors. You do that yourself. No matter if you are design , validation, or apps engineer.There are others . We have chip layout engineers, specialised in optimising the structures, calculating parasitics and providing feedback to design what can and cannot be done.Some people change hats a number of times a day. Since you work together there is cross pollination.You may discover you have an aptitude for a particular 'hat' that was not your original one. And then you end up doing that . You never had any university or school training in that function. You learned over the years , in a work environment , and you got to do it.There are techs that roll on to become apps engineers and validation engineers and even design engineers.I have an ex collegue, now retired, that finished school with a diploma 'french' . Married young , moved to mexico became very poor. Hubby was alcoholic, a child. Hubby knew how to fix vacuum tube tv's. So she learned by watching. When hubby was conked out once again she fixed TV's and kept the money. Eventually she had enough to flee with the kid back to California. Remarried. An acquintance told her Maxtor was looking for crafty people to assemble the precision mechanics of the early drives. She got the job. Pointed out some potential improvements and was put in the design group to build proto's and help iron out problems. Designed test fixtures and test programs. Assisted the firmware guys (in the early 80's) putting self test functionality in the drive. Made both the hardware design and software for it. Then a new thing came along SCSI. She made the first interface adapter with TTL 74xx series. Wire wrapped. She designed the circuit only from the timing diagram. Later this was integrated. Her group was spun off and became known as ... adaptec .... She wrote the first DOS and windows drivers for that card, with a chip on it that contained her design. Built from timing diagrams.The last years of her professional life she was a Design validation engineer. She would torture multimillion gate designs, see if they met criteria , and, if not, fix the damn verilog code of the system designers. She could write faster (as in come up with a working solution), cleaner (as in do with 5 lines wath the 'schooled' guys need twenty pages for, and is unreadable) and smaller (as in synthesises much smaller) verilog than anyone in the department. And it would work first time.She had a diploma 'french' with a second language 'spanish' and was 73 when she retired.I'd call that a succesfull career.To come back to your questions. The first guy making a tv or a train was not an engineer as that title hadn't been invented yet. Was Tesla an engineer ? Was Edison ? What about Volta or Ohm or Marconi ? What about archimedes ?Sure you can have an engineering degree and design a space probe or a tv from scratch. That does not precluded people that don't have the degree doing exactly the same.If you know how to do it you are working as an engineer and engineering the device. You just don't have a ribbon handed to you by an institute made to roll out such people.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 02:23:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on February 18, 2014, 02:10:20 pmno, although in some cases... I know plenty of cases of people that have a msee in electronics and have been doi g customer relations or sales for 20 years. They have become incompetent as an MSEE. They couldn't design a flipflop if their life depended on it.'I knew , long ago how to do it with vacuum tubes'" well we ain't got those anymore. Here are some and gates and a few inverters. "-blank stare-What the meme above says is that the degreed people should not interrupt the people doing the work. The people doing the work can be degreed or non degreed.The degreed people should not tell someone "you can't do that: you don't have a degree"

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 02:26:37 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 18, 2014, 01:14:30 pmI think that's true for all programmers, besides it's not always an engineer in disguise :-)QuoteVERY TRUE! A while ago I've started to fix some issues in an open source project. I'd like to tar and feather some of the original programmers. The software deals with a lot of dynamic data. Instead of using linked lists they're using arrays and re-alloc the array for each new element. Rarely any comment and so on.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 02:47:21 pm
content: And none of those guys should have a degree? Because "the people with the engineering degree should not interrupt the people doing the actual engineering work..." :>Why i participate in this rant is not the need to bang the drum that i have a degree - it is not that important to me and anyway, in my current job people couldn't care less. Still i take exception to this gross stereotyping that is obvious and egregious bullshit. People are allowed to succeed by whatever strengths they have - it is nothing away from me. Just that dismissing what you don't have or can't get - however irrelevant or otherwise is intellectually dishonest, not to say character revealing. If someone takes offense for me stating it, too bad. I can live with it.Quote from: free_electron on February 18, 2014, 02:23:41 pmOK, but what has the degree to do with this? The exact same guy sans degree would be in the same position. It is not his degree or othewise, it is that time left him behind while he did other things...QuoteAhh but the _implication_ is that the guys doing the job do _not_ have a degree. Right? Otherwise i agree. If you can find after the fact that the guy is capable of doing the work, then no problem. But before the fact, who would you pick of 2 otherwise _identical_ candidates: the one with degree or the one without? No assuming that one has all kinds of documents of past projects and the other does not. Identical applicants.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 03:01:28 pm
content: Engineering degrees are worth shit. Same as any other degrees, except maybe for medicine (don't quote me on that).It doesn't matter what you papers say. What matters is what you can do, how well and how fast and it has absolutely nothing to do with any official degree you have. You can have a PhD and be a complete tool, and you can be brilliant at engineering without having finished a high school.Sadly, companies don't hired based on skills, but based on degrees and certificates, and that's why those degrees still exist today.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 03:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on February 17, 2014, 07:05:55 pmAnd that, ladies and gentlemen, neatly encapsulates the matter. What's in a name. As long as the work is interesting and the pay is nice, who the hell cares what label is slapped on.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 03:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on February 18, 2014, 02:47:21 pmwhat i am saying is that, even if you have a degree, if you don't practice it daily you become rusty and eventually useless. Stuff moves fast these days. blink and you are obsolete.The same is true for any other profession. You can have been a auto mechanic for 40 years, knowing how to adjust carburators and ripping motors apart and reassembling them first-time right blindfolded while standing on your head. If my Tesla doesn't start you are useless. Everything you know is now obsolete. The only profession that doesn't change is a plumber. you will always be mucking about in other people's shit.Working in technology means lifelong learning. What you learned in school (to get your degree) isn't even the tip of the iceberg. it's 2 molecules in a frozen puddle of mosquito pee on top of the iceberg.Stick two equally smart people , one with paper one without. in the same work environment for 20 years and they will be equal. Whatever the papered guy learned is now absolete anyway.QuoteAhh but the _implication_ is that the guys doing the job do _not_ have a degree. Right?That's not what it says. It says the people doing the work. those can be degreed or non-degreed. it is not specified.You read something that isn't there. I did this on purpose to show how easy it is to overlook something. we all are partially blindfolded by what we like to see.The english language makes it even more annoying because engineer is both a title and a verb.We really need to split that.I like the german solution. Diplom-engineer. Meaning this dude has a piece of paper from an institute proving he studied the field of engineering.If he goes of and pursuse a career in it he is a Diplom engineer working as engineer.It doesn not preclude someone without the title also working as engineer.I wouldn't call my self a diplom engineer. That would be lying.But i will call myself an engineer because that is what i do on a daily basis.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 03:24:35 pm
content: QuoteI don't actually have any argument with the above. Education institutes don't have a secret formula for teaching, it can and does happen on the job as well. In fact the old apprentice system was based on that idea and those old guys above could be said to be something between that and a "savant", "naturalist" or "amateur" when the latter word meant something very different from what it means today. And of course an inventor is by definition not trained to make those particular inventions, or they would not be that.Perhaps the difference between formal education and on-the-job education is that the former is ability-building in the more general sense. It creates no instant experts in a narrowly defined topic - a point that is often used against formal education in this thread and elsewhere. But it does build a broad(er) foundation and readiness on how to learn more.On the job training is usually focused more to the immediate topic at hand resulting in a somewhat converse end result; one learns and knows the special aspects of the daily work and may be eligible for promotion in that context. But maybe not so much outside it. That is not to say that the promotion prospects are to be dismissed easily - there is no shortage of that kind of success story. It is just that that particular lottery ticket probably has longer odds.I can't escape the feeling that those in the latter position may be unable sometimes to see the value of the former. Not that it is the end-all of anything either. Myself, i haven't actually been paid to do ee'ing for decades. And as an ee i would never get paid half what i get nowadays. So go figure.P.S.QuoteThat is the way we do it as well. I guess because back in the day we inherited/copypasted all of that from the Germans anyway... But in Finland we don't really have a word for "engineering" and that is the crucial difference that makes it so easy and straightforward here. You just do not have a catch-all term that can mean anything the listener wants it to mean. Instead you have to use a specific word for the activity and there is no fuddling with a generic non-term.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 03:36:05 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on February 18, 2014, 02:47:21 pmThe one that can do the job.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 03:46:29 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 18, 2014, 03:36:05 pmThe one that can do the job well.Failing that, <monty_python>the girl with the biggest tits</monty_python>.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 04:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on February 18, 2014, 03:46:29 pmEven if the other candidate's hobbies include golf, strangling animals, and masturbating?

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 05:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on February 18, 2014, 03:46:29 pmShe's got my Vote!

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 06:11:04 pm
content: As a mature person I really want to get a qualification such a a B-eng in Electronics, writing to the open university I received an email telling me they do not have any courses or modules for Electronics, which completely knocked me off my perch, as I really wanted home study's, so I can't call myself anElectronics Engineer

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 06:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 18, 2014, 03:36:05 pmYeah, me too. And this is apparent how? Assume you never saw either of these guys in your life, as is usually the case. No time/money for lengthy trial periods to see which one you want to keep. Both say more or less the same things making the qualification the only real difference between them. Been there a number of times, or as close as makes no difference. Of course you can always skip both but assume no obvious candidates appear and you need a guy. So just tell me that for you the qualification is worth nothing and you may as well toss a coin. However, in my book the fact that one made the effort and got a paper does not make him worse - it makes him better.A degree paper with the ink still wet may not prove too much about the person's competence in the subject at hand. But it does prove one thing - that the person is able to persist at a task at least to the extent of getting the degree (4-5+ years in some cases). Sometimes that alone is not so easy to do, depending on exactly what is the relevant degree.So if you are looking for a specific guy for a specific job, by all means get the one who has years of experience under his belt doing just that thing. I would do the same. But big companies also look for growth potential. What free_electron just wrote about an old geezer falling behind the times is partly avoided by making sure you recruit fresh blood with fresh ideas, not only veterans already set in their ways.And now i part your company for some time to engage in technician level work. There's this guy on another forum needs help with an Arduino based exhaust temp gauge. He is a bit lost with the SPI signaling of the temp sensor chips so i promised to troubleshoot it for him. So here goes grabbing the hot end of the soldering iron.P.S.QuoteBeen there, done that. And what a behind as well... But then, she was very good where it really mattered, as well.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 06:16:10 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on February 18, 2014, 06:05:35 pmFor noting that we have been called that? But doing it is OK?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:09:31 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on February 18, 2014, 12:26:00 amMy Dad did a few deliveries by air to that area. Never stopped but just went past and left presents behind. When he landed after a few sorties he found he had been promoted to Wing Commander, by the simple dint of being the only surviving plane in the squadron. went to Cairo, drank the tea and spent a week in bed with the runs. Went to Karachi and avoided the water, drank this clear water looking stuff called Arrak by the bottle. Took another week to get sober after drinking water the next morning.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:22:06 pm
content: if the problem sits for more than a week on your desk you are now the expert on it...

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:25:10 pm
content: Quote from: Kyl8145 on February 18, 2014, 12:48:10 amPerhaps. Except when I say he was a toolmaker. He would use his experience and logic to design machine tools to get the jobs done quicker and more efficiently. The draughtsmen only produced the design for the product. Grandad would then draught and design specific tools to improve production of them all off his own bat. He was definitely an engineer and worked in engineering works all his life. He deserved the title. He just wasn't a "shiny arsed bastard", ie. stuck on an office chair 40 hours a week. He got his hands dirty.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:29:53 pm
content: Just to throw my two cents in.I am not by trade an engineer and I don't have any engineering credentials. I do have a two-year degree in computer programming, and I work for a university as a programmer. I do not put "engineer" on my resume or tell people that I am employed as an engineer.But.... I do consider myself something of an engineer, as I daily solve problems at work and home using my knowledge of science, mathematics, and logic. And I have an office full of gadgets I've designed and built. I also like to carry screwdrivers in my pocket. That should count for something.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:33:37 pm
content: I usually refer to myself as "employed as a design engineer" or otherwise call myself a technical cartoonist which is all I think doing 3D models under someone else's direction is. Although I have since produced projects of my own.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 18, 2014, 01:53:20 pm"Rewrite" is a term that invokes heart palpitations with management. "Merciless re-factoring" is what we called it instead when proposing a rewrite. I'm a software engineer as a real job

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:36:13 pm
content: The problem was he's hardware was even shittier so i'm not sure what he was really capable of

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:56:22 pm
content: Prime manager material then Simon.......

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 08:00:39 pm
content: don't go there

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 08:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: M0BSW on February 18, 2014, 06:11:04 pmI recently looked at the OU too. Back in the day you could do hard sciences, chemistry, physics, electronics. You would be supplied with lab kit and also be expected to do a few weeks on campus. It seems they have been dumbed down to the soft BA degrees. They are worthless to me now.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 08:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on February 18, 2014, 07:09:31 pmHaha. Yes when grandad was in Italy he was given malaria tablets (sulphonamides? - based on a purple dye). He never took them by mouth as he took the local italians advice to just drink the vino and the mozzies don't bite. He used the tablets as a form of contraception/STD prevention by popping them in the local hussy girls pussies. He told me his dick was stained purple for weeks! hahaha. Dirty old sod.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 08:35:37 pm
content: He got Malaria as well in the tropics. Treatment was simple, they used Arsenic and over a 3 week period built up to a grain a day, enough to kill a horse, then slowly tapered off to nothing over a 2 month period. No more Malaria.One thing he had was a lot of shrapnel fragments inside him, came from leaving a plane without the benefit of using a door, as it fell apart around him. The nurses in the hospital told him when he woke up 2 weeks later they found him under a pine tree in a snow bank, his plane having crashed and burnt around 2km further on. All he remembered was his back burning from the parachute being on fire.Funny was that he went to school in Bavaria, and just happened to be in Liverpool in 1939 when the war started. Strange as a pilot was that he was quite blue green colour blind. Did not have much problems aside from not being able to do wiring without checking at least 3 times every time, or getting a second opinion ( me) to verify.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 08:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on February 18, 2014, 08:09:46 pmOh my makes the whole tale so believable

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 08:57:08 pm
content: Just remember that at that time rubbers were something thick, hard to use and scarce, and a second currency was both cigarettes or chocolate for renting a room. Using a disinfectant was pretty good to prevent going to the doc with a drip.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 02:55:51 am
content: Quote from: poorchava on February 18, 2014, 03:01:28 pmIt 's worth 600 euro extra a month for me, with more freedom and a less ennoying job.Still in search of an interesting job.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:43:47 am
content: 9gag has this thread coveredhttp://9gag.com/gag/aYbMDWN

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 04:26:40 am
content: QuoteUnless they got their Degree prior to around 1960,I very much doubt they would have ever had to design a flipflop with tubes,& unless they have been living on top of a mountain peak in the Himalayas,would have heard of "and gates & inverters".Most old "Ginger Beers" I've known seem to keep up with things quite well.Turn it on its head,& how many modern "Engineers" of whatever variety could design a flipflop using tubes,or even BJTs.(Well,actually they could,if they did a tiny bit of research)Of course,most of them would just buy a prepackaged flipflop,or even program a PIC to do the function!They seem to want to do things like that!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 04:38:14 am
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on February 17, 2014, 10:05:07 pmYeah,that works really well when the nearest Engineer is 1000km away,& the Engineer who designed the bloody thing 15 years ago is 10000km away,or dead!

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 04:44:03 am
content: 23 pages wasted on this?The trash man of yesterday is today's sanitation engineer. Move on the title is hosed. Your skills define the deference not the title.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 05:16:06 am
content: Quote from: Kremmen on February 18, 2014, 06:14:57 pmBut there will be a difference - one of them spent 3-4 years getting a degree and the other is 3-4 years younger or spent 3-4 years doing something else.Quote from: Kremmen on February 18, 2014, 06:14:57 pmBetter? Maybe especially if you are looking for a slogger who lacks ambition and initiative. What kind of person is willing to spend 3-4 years (and in some places a lot of money) to get a bit of paper which as you say may not prove much except they are persistent enough to spend 3-4 years getting it?

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 06:08:21 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on February 19, 2014, 05:16:06 amYou see, this was what i was getting at. Here it is out in the open. I bent the question out of shape almost to the breaking point to see if someone actually says it, and you did.So, there actually are people who honestly think that getting an education makes you worse instead of better.I don't want to start arguing the relative merits of this and that institute, curriculum or particular professor. All these things have a spectrum from awful to excellent. It is just disturbing that the general idea of educating oneself can be considered a disadvantage. Thank god i have never had to encounter that particular worldview in my life.Used to be only the gipsies would hide their kids when it was time to go to the school. Nowadays even they are starting to see the merit in rethinking the idea. So where does that leave you?

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 06:27:10 am
content: Quote from: poorchava on February 18, 2014, 03:01:28 pmOh they are worth a lot more than that. But unless you have one, you will never get to know.QuoteIt matters more often than you would think, i guess (since you think never). Like my onetime karate instructor used to say: a big good man beats a small good man.QuoteThere is no such thing as "companies" that does one thing only. Incompetent persons and companies bungle their jobs and slowly disappear to stage left. Competent ones continue in the competition. It is a well know best practice to gauge an applicants general level of education because it is an indicator of so many other things. Competent HR people know this and i know it for a fact. I won't go into the broken record routine so read my previous posts to see the difference between hiring a lathe operator to a garage company and a long term HR investment in a bigger corporation.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 07:15:08 am
content: I think this discussion has just taken two polarized sides ignoring some "facts of life". There are many people that get degrees for the sake of it or because they think it was an easy course but many are people genuinely interested in the subject and want to work in it. I think it's a large number of snobs that give the few genuine qualified engineers a bad name.I do wish I'd had formal education but I know I'd have struggled being dyslexic and undiagnosed as such (they don't know what it is in italy yet and my UK school was crap). But I'm happy with where I'm at, I'm not earning a fortune but I'm the most qualified person in my work place in electronics as we are mecahnical engineering, but then sometimes I get the impression some people don't listen to me because I don't have qualifications although my boss does not seem to have a problem and is pleased with my input to the company.

author: Kyl8145
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 07:43:08 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on February 19, 2014, 05:16:06 amI find it odd that you think that someone who spends years getting a degree lacks ambition and initiative. They are showing ambition and initiative by getting the degree, which if a good program, will require a lot of hard work. Also, you are assuming that all fields of engineering can be self-taught. That isn't the case. Some require expensive equipment to learn that only universities have on hand. And if the engineering program they are in is any good, then provided they get good grades at it, then they should most definitely have some level of real skill when they graduate or they would not have been able to get the good grades.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 07:47:38 am
content: I think this all applies to any degree, I get the impression we live in a university snobbery in the UK. Everyone is expected to go to university, the whole system has lost it's value, once a degree meant something these days it becomes a case of universities wanting to give them away to attract more students to an "easy course" and naturally the whole system suffers.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 07:58:35 am
content: New word for the day SimonSnoburglars .I saw a Tv doco awhile back exposing these degree thingymabobs and it was saying there are heaps of degree owners that are driving Taxi's , working at Takeaway food places and everywhere except where a degree would dictate , it was so funny it nearly made me decide to move to Finland Ha Ha Ha ..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 08:01:46 am
content: When I lived in italy our local bar owner had a degree in astronomy. I think he was genuinely interested in it but family/life did not permit him to persue it. In italy a person with a degree is automatically entilled to first dibs at any job. One of my sisters friends lost her job in a nursery when a degree holder showed up and wanted the job, naturally it was nothing to do with childcare, my sisters friend, the nuns that ran the nursery, the children and parents were all so upset......

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 10:47:52 am
content: Oh noes! everybody is using the title I'm going to school for...Well, guess what, after you finish engineering school, you're nothing.You are an engineer when you have a job as an engineer (you have to engineer things as part of the job). That has nothing to do with either skill or what school you went to, if you even went to school.This also means that you're not an engineer if you are no longer working as an engineer. It just means that you were an engineer at some point, now you're not. You can however still use the expression "I am an engineer" to describe the fact that you're qualified to be an engineer, when that's the case.Now let's draw a line between people making things and people engineering things: I'm a hobbyist and if I'm making a metal box, I'm just doing metal work. If I'm designing a metal case with some features that solve some problem, it's called that I'm engineering it. This doesn't make me an engineer, but it makes me the engineer of that box.So to summarize:1) School has nothing to do with it.2) Skill has nothing to do with it.3) You're an engineer only if you're engineering things for a living.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 12:01:02 pm
content: An engineering degree opens doors and gives you choices. It teaches you, to some extent how to think and teaches you control theory (a valuable lesson indeed). I could argue that Bill Gates with all his billions of dollars cannot buy something which I have earned - an engineering degree.Even so, some electronics engineers with degrees are no engineer either. Some of these did an engineering degree for the WRONG reasons such as saving face or caste. It is expected of them by their family, even if they lack talent or interest. These people are "conscripts". You can always tell a "conscript". He or SHE does not own a soldering iron or a even half decent multimeter at home. No hope of them ever being interested in buying their own oscilloscope or getting a ham radio license. They have no idea how a $5 AM radio works, nor are they interested. As soon as the ink is dry on their exam paper, out goes the knowledge.The best electronics engineers are those who have a passion for the discipline often from a young age. This can usually be measured by the extent these engineers get involved in electronics at home, outside work. As kids, they often pulled things apart to see how they work. These people are "volunteers".I know who I'd hire - DEGREE OR NO DEGREE, ONE VOLUNTEER IS WORTH TEN CONSCRIPTS.And engineering degree does not guarantee you are any good at engineering. And not having an engineering degree not not mean you are not any good at engineering. But in many workplaces and countries, you are not considered for an engineering job unless you hold an engineering degree. I think this might be for legal reasons as well.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 12:11:31 pm
content: Three attributes of a AAA engineer:AttitudeAptitudeAbilityThe first two are inherent. The last one can be learnt.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 12:32:16 pm
content: I sit oposite a guy that used to design water works. His old company would have to take on newly qualified people for work experience, he one told me one designed a system that required water go uphill..........

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 12:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: MacbethThat's sad, I remember watching the OU programmes on BBC2 in the 1970's when I was a kid - much more interesting than regular TV. A few still stick in my mind such as working down Group 1 of the periodic table throwing Alkali metals into water with bigger and bigger bangs each time (there's a chemist from (I think) Nottingham Uni who has some similar vids on YouTube).I see they do offer Maths+Physics as a BSc - in fact I think that's a step up from the 70's because all their degrees used to be BA's back in the day. It's barely cheaper than going to a real University though.Quote from: SimonPartly I think we looked at places like Germany which are doing well economically and said "they have a workforce 75% of whom attended higher education and they are doing well, we have a workforce 25% of whom attended higher education and we aren't doing well" and concluded that we needed to have everyone get a "qualification" without regard to a) what that qualification was and b) other minor bits of the equation such as infrastructure and support for industry.Partly I think someone cottoned on to the fact that if we encourage more 18-21 year old's into education they handily stay off the unemployment figures.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 12:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on February 19, 2014, 12:46:14 pmYes quiteI used to go out with a girl that did modern art/cinematography, thinks she achieved something by going to uni, did about 5 hours of lectures a week and her final year piece was her on her back waving her arms and legs around and then turning it upside down......... but she has a degree WOWThis country needs to have a serious apprentiship program, not a wishy washy one that is as bad as some uni degrees. You join a company you start at the basics and work your way through being taught how to do stuff. I am so glad I spent time on the shop floor as a quality inspector (again underqualified for the position) because I learnt so much from the guys and some were happy to teach and explain when I showed a willingness to learn. Now I always go back down there as soon as i have a project concept to see what they think about how i'm planning to make something to make sure we all do it as cheaply and best as possible.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 01:42:30 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 19, 2014, 12:01:02 pmYep! Passion, that's the key! When I did my degree about 50% of the EE students dropped out for reasons like too boring or too much math. And a lot the remaining students never had a resistor in their hands until they had to deal with physical parts in a lab. Just a very few were don't-turn-it-on-take-it-apart kids.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 01:45:18 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 19, 2014, 12:57:44 pmBut that isn't likely to happen without a resurgence of organized labor. ESPECIALLY in fields like engineering, where most workers (with or without college degrees) consider themselves "better" than those grubby "blue collar" types, and therefore resist efforts to organize collectively in their own interests. Because...SOCIALISM!Apprenticeship programs were/are largely run through labor unions, not employers. Bosses want cheap employees, able to work NOW, without having to invest in training them. Giving employees additional training and skills is not really in the interest of the employing class, because it strengthens the ability of a worker to bargain for higher wages or take a better job elsewhere. Better to outsource jobs to China or India (or bring in indentured servants on H1-B visas) than to invest in growing the skills of an already "overpriced" and "entitled" domestic workforce, right?

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 02:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on February 19, 2014, 01:08:25 pmRight, but if you're a student after a career that does not require scope-time why would you want to waste time taking classes on it? Perhaps EE education needs to do what computer science education did and split into two. What used to be called "computer science" is now called "computer engineering" in the US. That's where you learn how to write a compiler, and build CPUs from logic chips, etc. "Computer science" degrees now teach how to administer Windows & UNIX servers, etc., and is just as valuable to some students as computer engineering.Perhaps EE education tracks should adopt a similar approach? I've known lots of EEs, and not one of them knew how to use an oscilloscope, but they all knew how to program for embedded systems.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 02:36:51 pm
content: we seem to be in an age where if you can program ypu "think" you can do electronics, not so,

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 02:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 19, 2014, 02:36:51 pmAnd the other way around is also true

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 02:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on February 19, 2014, 06:08:21 amThen you bend my answer out of shape - I don't think getting an education makes you worse. I think and said that if you are going to spend 3-4 years and possibly a large amount of money there are alternatives which can make you better.30+ years ago I quit half way through a 4 year degree. I don't regret quitting, I regret starting it. By the time my classmates graduated I had two years of work which was education I got paid for and 6 months later I was hired as a design engineer by an electronics test equipment manufacturer a job which none of my classmates would have got.I don't think I would be able to do that today which is sad and wrong. A situation promoted by those with degrees who are dicks about it and consistently refuse to accept that there are other ways of spending 3-4 years (and possibly a lot of money) to provide education and training for a job.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 19, 2014, 12:01:02 pmhere is a spanner in that argument : he doesn;t need to buy them , he gets em for free from leading universities.If degrees are so valuable why do universities give away 'honorary' degrees to princes , businesspeople, kings , and other people that never even studied there ? talk about watering down the title ...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:12:39 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 19, 2014, 02:36:51 pmlook i made an led blink using an arduino. that qualifies as hardware and software. That qualifies as 3 degrees : electronics , computer engineering and computer science! where's my 150K$ a year job now ?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 19, 2014, 03:12:39 pmSteady on, where are those 3 bits of paper ?

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 19, 2014, 03:08:59 pmNot entirely a valid argument. If you have a honorary degree you are required to say that it's honorary. All credible Universities (TOP 250) only give hon. degrees to people who have achieved something in the field of the respective degree.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 19, 2014, 03:08:59 pmThat's what the "Honorary" qualifier means. "Not earned, but we think you're awesome." They usually get to pick the honorary degree they want.Honorary degrees do not count as qualification or proof of knowledge. Actually, regular degrees don't do that either, truthfully, even though they're supposed to.Regular degrees basically mean "We certify that you are capable of sitting in a seat for 2, 4, or 6 years." This is actually a meaningful statistic, to me. People that are chaotic can't stay in one spot for very long, no matter how hard they try.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:27:43 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on February 19, 2014, 03:17:51 pmOR donated huge sums of money to that university or one of its pet projects

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on February 19, 2014, 03:17:51 pmAh, yes. Like the degree given to that noted engineering genius, Dr. Frank Sinatra...http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/23/nyregion/our-towns-frank-sinatra-doctor-of-engineering.html

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 03:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: N2IXK on February 19, 2014, 03:28:27 pmhoho he experimented a lot with frequencies between 80 and 4000 Hz and with his experiments achieved to make some grown ups cry, very clever indeed

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 08:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 19, 2014, 03:12:39 pmFor the 150K, you only need to add sales. Were you able to sell your blinking led?Or management. Were you able to let other people blink the led?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 08:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 19, 2014, 12:57:44 pmThe fact they call this "higher education" isn't the worst problem.Real problem here is that for many Government functions, a Master degree is wanted. They are filled up with Masters in this kind of crap, with an enormous arrogance, without anybody in the whole department who counts better than me at 12 years old.I call that kind of education, a hobby.

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 10:00:33 pm
content: I'm going through my 5th year for a BSc in science of electrical engineering, with focus on electronics and communications. As for the study program itself, it hasn't lived up to my expectations at all. My background is a lot different than most of the people here because I've not discovered electronics engineering as a possible hobby until two years ago in a circuit analysis course project. That's because I came from a naive and blind background on the subject of electronics engineering. In my case, the university environment has woken me up and it helped a lot in maturing. The interaction between students, teachers and instructors gave me a chance to go out of the shell that I was living in. However, as I said earlier, the study program is way too much theoretical with very little practical and real world examples. The net result is that I barely have any skills as far as circuit design is concerned.You spend most of time doing a homework on deriving a bunch of equations rather than building a circuit, scoping, taking measurements and troubleshooting. You stress yourself preparing for an exam two weeks prior and memorize things like how to solve one stage small-signal transistor amplifier by memorizing a bunch of equations associated with a hybrid or T model and yet you don't have a clue how to design such a circuit from scratch. In the lab, you're given the amplifier assembled and are asked to blindly take some measurements and then use this and that equation to get that and this thing.I can go on on this forever, but I've been through the experience and I'm aware that a BSc in electronics engineering doesn't mean that you're any better than a guy who has been doing it as a hobby for years. The one who's more skilled and experienced in hands-on work, is the one who deserves to be called an engineer. In either case, it's a self-study process, but doing it without university work will give you much more time and brain clarity. Actually, most of the time, I spend learning a course material on my own since I can't stand classes too much anymore. Anyway, in my country you're paid while attending university and a BSc is a must for stepping into an engineering position in any institution, private or public.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 12:34:10 am
content: The best are the ones that blend theoretical knowledge with hands on experience. What are you doing outside of school to get the hands on stuff? When I was studying my major, and all through grad school, I was constantly fiddling with stuff outside of my curriculum...you know, just having fun.That theoretical knowledge is valuable when your design doesn't work. It's valuable when you have to do more advanced designs. When the practical rules of thumb break down, and they often do, you'd better have some clue how to break things down to first principles and figure out what's going on.That separates the men from the boys, IMHO. The really great engineers have a lot of theoretical knowledge under their belt, whether from school or otherwise, and know how to apply it to real circuits. You don't NEED a degree to acquire that, but the notion that it's not valuable is nonsense.You may not remember off the top of your head how to design a proper decoupling network, but you'll recognize the problem when you see it, and you'll know where to look up the solution. That's the point.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 01:28:00 am
content: The thing is--a lot of the stuff used in Circuit Analysis is not "first Principles".A transistor is not a bunch of current & voltage generators,although it may be adequately represented in that fashion for the purposes of analysis.In most cases it can be regarded as a variable resistor,controllable by biasing & input signal,which if incorporated in a voltage divider,allows us to amplify that input signal.The name is the clue---- "trans-istor" from "Transfer- Resistor".To get even closer to "First Principles",is to delve into the operation of Semiconductor Junctions.

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 08:29:05 am
content: I will never deny the importance of theory, but too much of it without any practical design is worthless as far as I'm concerned. In a communication theory course, you're given loads of probability analysis for random and noise signals. Things like WSS and stationary random process, their properties and when a signal is WSS or ergodic, and yet you can't understand these things well because you're just dealing with symbolic analysis with no physical things, like a signal on a scope or a spectrum analyzer. Most of the time the instructor will keep going through slides of deriving an equation like the signal-to-noise ratio for a DSB receiver. Although this one is easy to do, but it's worthless since we did that only on paper and wasted like hours deriving the same things for SSB, FM, empathized FM and so on.A month later, almost all of what has been learned in that course is forgotten. Why? because it was just a math and probability course in which we don't actually work with actual transmitters and receivers. What are the practical skills acquired? none. Aren't we supposed to demonstrate the ability to design some simple AM and FM transceivers, calculate and compensates, choose appropriate components based on the datasheet figures, plots and rule of thumbs, scope and maybe analyze the spectrum.As for our little small-signal transistor amplifier, the most important question is, are students able to design one stage of that thing after finishing the course? I guarantee you, NO, and they absolutely have no clue where to start from. If this is the case, then yes, it was a waste of time for me and for the others. Tinkering in home with a load of university work is the road to suicide, you barely have the time to cook food for yourself. 7-4 PM, back home, eat and get some rest and the rest of the day is preparing for next day's load of work. In a nutshell, this all can be learned alone with your agenda and plan, and yet you will be a lot better than an impressive PhD holder instructing a bunch of BSc chasers.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 08:43:28 am
content: Quote from: Abstr7ct on February 20, 2014, 08:29:05 amI agree partially but a lot of theory that is not being able to be put in practice is a question of time before it is practically feasible. If that is the criteria then we can shutdown 95% of universities doing long term (useless in practice) research.Concerning all theory learnt at uni or college, I think you use about 10% in your daily work depending on which work you do. Then all at a sudden you change to a new job or have a new project at home and you have to know something you once learnt. Hopefully you remember that you once had that knowledge and know where to dig it up again (keywords, parts of formula's) and you are in business. If you never had that theory or problem to deal with in the first place you didn't know it existed and that there was someone before you that solved it and you are doing really worthless work: the same work someone else already did or post a question on this forum so the people that remember that theory can make you aware of it.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 10:21:31 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 19, 2014, 03:20:09 pmThere is a difference between a degree Honor'y and a degree with honors.

author: Kyl8145
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 11:32:56 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on February 19, 2014, 12:46:14 pmPart of the reason was also the Cold War, and the drive for "everyone to get educated" so that we can compete with the Soviets. It was the era of the Space Race and all that.

author: Kyl8145
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 11:37:36 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 19, 2014, 02:01:00 pmWould have to disagree there on that definition of computer science. Computer science is not administering Windows & UNIX servers, that is what is known as information technology, at least here in the U.S. Computer science deals with the design of algorithms, how to make computers do different things. For example, the Google search algorithm, that is computer science. Note it isn't system administration or software design. Artificial intelligence is another example of computer science. Compiler design is another. In many ways, pure computer science is really a branch of mathematics. Computer engineering combines computer science and electrical engineering, but because the design of computer systems became such a specific field, computer engineering split off into its own field.

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 06:17:22 pm
content: One thing I'd like to throw in is something that may not be apparent to everyone. The word 'engineer' or it's translations in other languages do have different meanings in different countries. One extreme being Germany where enginner, or in German Ingenieur, is an academic title. Only if you have completed a course of study that ends with a certificate that says Ingenieur on it, you may not call yourself an engineer. It's actually a criminal offence to call yourself that without the necessary academic background, as outlined in § 132a StGB (StGB = German Penal code). The other extreme being the US where i live now: Here it's a job title. Some ground keeper kind of personal has the word 'engineer' in their titles. Also, many wire strippers at TV / radios stations are called engineers. And I know I'll offend some of the older Broadcast engineers with that. So I want to add that the old ones for the most part actually know quite a bit. But the younger Broadcast Technology Engineers are often wire stripping experts and are also great at rebooting and shipping broken parts.Accordingly, the inhibition level one needs to overcome to have the audacity to abuse titles varies greatly by country. Would be interesting to hear how this is handled in other countries.But the real problem at hand is not just limited to engineers. Look how many people with a camera call themselves photographers, how many people call themselves musicians, martial arts experts, ... The list goes on and on.And it's natural. We all want to be proud of ourselves. We all want a cool title. At the same time, it has absolutely nothing to do with elitism that people with a large knowledge base are absolutely against it. If I go to college for 5+ years to be called an Electrical Engineer and some kid with an Arduino calls themselves an Engineer, then yes, my blood starts boiling most definitely. And the same time I'd like to stress that the reverse also exists: I bet some hobbyist and self-taught / self-named engineers shake their heads at the lack of knowledge some 'top notch' (going by grades) engineers out of college. There's no doubt in my mind that there's a great amount of self-named engineers who have a huge lack of ... well ... everything you need to be an engineer. At the same time, I believe the same is true for 'real' engineers with a college degree. There's just as many people there who do not deserve their title.And let's not forget what engineer really means. Is the better engineer really the one who knows more? The answer is: absolutely not. Being an engineer is more a skill-set of problem solving using analytically thinking and thinking of clever ways to implement solutions within the constraints given. Thus, it's absolutely possible that some 12 year old Lego Mindstorms kiddo is the better engineer than the 30 years of experience kind of person.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 07:02:08 pm
content: Quote from: KF5OBS on February 21, 2014, 06:17:22 pmI will try an put things into perspective for you with some historical guess work.Once upon a time the most complicated mechanism most people encountered in their lives was a musket, we didn't have machines in the sense we think of them today although you can argue what a machine is. Then steam "engine"s came along, they were an absolute marvel huge breakthrough designed by few and could only be operated by people who understood how they work so also fairly "clever" people for the time. I will guess these people became known as engineers because they worked with or designed engines that few understood. I would expect that after the first generation of self taught engineers the need arose for the knowledge they had gained to be passed on so some sort of academic institution had to be created to teach "engineering". So for a ling time an engineer was something to aspire to be and being one meant you were really clever and held in high esteem, how many people want to be held in high esteem by others ? you guessed it, all of us really.Fast forward a few years and technology is becoming easier, we have computers and many many more people are familiar with technical matters. There are of course plenty of engineers around and in many disciplines now and everything in life becomes more technical and even to be something like a plumber you need to know more than how to screw a few pipes together.So as the two ends of the scale from those who design to those who implement got slightly closer people who were on the implementing end got the notion they were designing something maybe and maybe because of some ignorance they got wrongly called engineers. After all who does not want to be someone which such esteemed skills and roles ?And so I guess the real dilution of the word began as the masses took to appropriating a title that they longed for so much and that they could convince most that they were but because with the advent of technology does not mean to say joe public is any less ignorant. Just because joe blogs can use a smart phone does not mean to say he is any more intelligent than the ancient egyptian that lugged stones around for a living but he thinks he is and because he is not really he is easily dupped into allowing someone with some skills that works with something technological to be called an engineer.When people ask me what i do I say i work "as an engineer" not that "I am an engineer" (maybe i'm missing a trick!). My new contract at work calls me a project engineer, ok I had my own project, I did most of the work on it. Still I'd have gotten it totally wrong had my boss not kept an eye on me and nudged me in the right direction now and then.I was once called a quality engineer when i worked in the quality department. A what ? I was a quality inspector, i never designed anything!!!! The only reason I'd want to be calling someone a quality engineer is a) if they have an engineering qualification AND b) they have gained enough experience in troubleshooting to be effective at verifying the quality of products or processes and correcting any problems (engineering a solution).Where I used to live in italy where most people are ignorant and a few get degrees everyone wants to run around calling themselves engineers, or doctors to the extent that buying a degree is comon. My cousin in italy who is cheif of local police bought himself a degree so that he can have doctor infront of his name in places like the telephone directory. In reality he is a big fat ignorant shit that got the job because of his fathers influence and is pig ignorant and is sneered at by many in town myself included, he's that clever that he got jailed for allowing cheating at a police admitance exam that he was too stupid to oversee. But well people will want degrees in this part of italy because if you don't have one as my boss told me you can't have an opinion.It's all a case of prestige and laziness, people want to have a title that guarantees for life that they are held in esteem without having to do anything, instead of being held in esteem for actually doing something meaningful and useful.As for homegrown versus qualified ? well a little snippet I can tell you. Our electronics subcontractor once proudly showed me the voltage regulator he had found for our countrol box that takes a 28V input and uses less than 1 amp, it was difficult to find he told me a regulator that could dissipate all the heat needed for the big voltage drop.....so he is so clever that he never thought of the practical solution to the problem like I did and always do, to put a resistor in series with the regulator to take some of the voltage and power dissipation off the regulator......... he is qualified, I am not !many people with a qualification just go for a text book solution and are too scared to think for themselves, I prefer to "outwit" the problem, not crack a nut with a sledgehammer !

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 07:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: Kyl8145 on February 20, 2014, 11:37:36 amI agree with you, but I had two interns last year who are both getting their "computer science" degrees this spring, and they both agreed that modern "computer science" degrees are system administration degrees.The definition has changed whether or not you or I like it. Which I don't.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 07:25:39 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 21, 2014, 07:22:59 pmI think it probably depends more on where you do it.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 08:55:21 pm
content: I would regard Isambard Kingdom Brunel as the champion of all engineers. He was highly educated with the benefit of public and private education, though his family ended up in debtors prison for a while. He did not get a piece of paper, but finished a proper apprenticeship, before building the best bridges and railways and steam engines and ships, etc, for his era.No poncey "shiny arse" paper qualified "engineer" could possibly even compete.Also, with the chat on Honorary Degrees; Jeremy Clarkson himself is now an Hon. Engineer of Brunel university for his magnificent history program about Brunel (as well as others like Frank Whittle and Tommy Flowers)I would say the "shiny arse engineers" with pieces of paper, all derived from Eton and the rest of the UK Establishment are the upper/middle class scum drinking pink-gins at the cricket matches who stole the IP and gave Whittles Jet engine design and Tommy Flowers computers to the Americans, and then locked up all the engineers designs as "Official Secrets" for the next 50+ years.As it always has been in the UK - Lions led by DonkeysIsambard Kingdom Brunel - Jeremy Clarkson Pt1 ~ 6

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 09:35:34 pm
content: uh, as much as I like documentaries that one by Clarkson looks like a feeble attemp, to much fancy stuff and very diluted information

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 12:52:27 am
content: At a party if you say you are an electronics engineer to a single attractive female, they will run the other way.But say you are a lawyer, doctor or business development manager (a salesman), you become a chick magnet. Maybe it is because most women are ignorant, spending too much time reading silly women's magazines catching up on the latest gossip about some actress, rather than reading Elektor magazine where they can appreciating the beauty of an op-amp and admire those who can design a differential amplifier. Maybe most women are more attracted to money rather than brains.An engineering colleague who is single usually says he is "a designer" to a chick at a party. He NEVER say he is an electronics engineer.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 01:11:55 am
content: Don't be so quick to generalize about women. Women are just as distinct and varied as men are. Moreso, probably. I work with a couple of degreed female electrical engineers, and like all healthy people, they don't care what career a dude chooses. If he's someone that she finds interesting, is generally human in appearance, and somewhat well balanced, and she is looking for a new friend, then it wouldn't matter if he was a garbage man.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 01:43:34 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2014, 12:52:27 ams/women/people/g

author: envisionelec
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 02:54:30 am
content: I don't call myself an engineer - it's my job title.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 03:15:05 am
content: I call myself a "retired Old Fart"!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 04:21:24 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2014, 12:52:27 amBeen a while, has it?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 08:49:36 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2014, 12:52:27 amBeen there, seen it, and can tell you from my own experience that this is only true (generalizing ofcourse) for women <30.The requirements that young women have for partners do not comply with most engineers: exciting, money, adventurous, extravagant, etc.If you are a well know criminal you stand more chanceAfter their 30 and they want a serious relationship (and family so beware if you are not up to that) the serious men come in to view, the requirements are suddenly different: reliable, stable, etc. very compatible with engineers

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 09:13:46 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 22, 2014, 01:11:55 amSanitary engineer please.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 09:32:06 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 22, 2014, 09:13:46 amCan you design a brick dunny?

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 11:29:05 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 22, 2014, 08:49:36 amEXTRAVAGANT? Many engineers are very extravagant. They will own a Fluke 179 over a $10 crappy multimeter. I bet Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise and Leonardo DiCaprio do not own a Fluke 179.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 12:20:32 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 22, 2014, 01:11:55 amDepends on the country.In Australia, women rarely marry "below themselves". For example, your will not often find a female judge married to a male car mechanic. In places like India (the caste system), China (saving face) and England (the class system), people tend to marry their in own socio-economic class. These norms are discriminatory and rather shallow, but are well entrenched. There are exceptions of course.I have a relative who suffers schizophrenia and has not worked for 20 years. He is overweight (due to the medication), has no money, no friends and lacks self esteem. In his late 40's he has never had a girlfriend. Women simply are not interested because they would see him as being at the bottom of the heap.A mate of mine, a fellow electronics engineer I have known for many years (brilliant with analogue design), got divorced and lost almost everything. He is friendly, decent and knowledgeable. A few years after the divorce, he would go out on dates. As soon as they find out he hasn't got money, they run. They don't give a toss about how smart he is.Maybe most women and men who think, "What will they come up with next?", are blind to the fact it is the electronics engineers, systems engineers, embedded programmers and technicians who created their iPhone, HDTV, or new car bells and whistles that they must have. In a perfect world, these engineers would be at the top of the A list, way above actors and actresses and those born into privilege.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 12:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2014, 11:29:05 amIt's more comllicated than that.Women reason like this: When challenged to choose between a fluke 179 or a 200$ shirt and tie the engineer will pick the fluke. And you can't wear the fluke to take me out to a fancy place for dinner...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 01:19:00 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 22, 2014, 08:49:36 amThen my luck may just be starting to turn..... not!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 01:23:49 pm
content: I'm afraid life particularly in the UK is about prestige, and prestige comes with money. It's a horrible system but it's there.If you are from the right family with money you can afford university....... a good one, that lines you up for a good job or highy paid political role, then you get well paid for not doing much.If your just good at what you do but not from a ice background your ignored. My boss has slowly learnt to trust me and my abilities (I don't blow my own trumpet) and has slowly let me take o more electronics, particularly since i have pointed many a finger at stupid text book design features from a so called qualified person.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 04:28:00 pm
content: Do not worry Simon, you are not alone there.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 05:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on February 22, 2014, 09:32:06 amThat would be against union rules, you have to be an architect for that.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 11:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 22, 2014, 05:50:37 pmHang on a sec, wouldn't there also be some rule/legal requirement that would also involve a civil engineer to handle designing the hole?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 12:23:46 am
content: I can see why people get upset but this is about semantics.My current job title is research engineer but I consider my role to be more of a technician, rather than engineer and I don't mind it. I'm happy to be a technician at the moment. I've done more real engineering roles in the past and found them more stressful. I'm happy where I am and it pays enough, even though I could earn more somewhere else.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 12:45:26 am
content: I have no electronics qualifications whatsoever.When people ask me what I do for a living I tell them I workasan electronics design engineer doing blah blah blah. I tell them I do an EE's job, not Iamone.Been messing with stuff for over 40 years now.On this vid ->http://youtu.be/dmeVvuLiiPssee the two black ignition boxes attached to the rhs corner of the motor on the dyno? They're mine; software, hardware, pcb layout all by me at home. Have been on 4 or 5 first-place engines since I think 2008. I am barely qualified to tie my own shoe laces.What the EMC is ->http://youtu.be/QYShB8c-zmo

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 07:39:50 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 22, 2014, 01:23:49 pmRegarding privilege, the English class system is rather notorious. But we had the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne not long ago. The bloated A-list (populated by filthy rich people and celebrities) got free tickets to the opening ceremony, paid in full by the taxes of the Victorian workers. Due to a lack of subsequent seats available, the workers had to succumb to a ballot system and had to pay full price if they wanted to go.We are finding that foreigners and greedy property investors keep the real estate prices highly inflated, squeezing out first home buyers who were born here. This is supported by a government that allows very generous tax dodging by investors but virtually no relief for battlers trying to buy their first home.Money and celebrity buys privilege, no matter which country you are in.If we had our priorities right, electronics engineers and technicians would be treated above the rich, the celebrities and the politicians, and afforded due privileges. After all there would be no TVs, mobile phone toys, internet or computers without us and society would be in the dark ages. The government can start with tax free electronics test equipment.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 09:11:20 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 22, 2014, 11:44:49 pmNo. The civil engineer has to check the design of the hole but woe betide anyone who puts a spade into the earth unless they are a fully paid up member of the dunny diggers union.

author: obd.tech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 12:01:34 pm
content: Quote from: madires on February 19, 2014, 01:42:30 pm'don't-turn-it-on-take-it-apart kids' made me smile :-)Yes this is so true of any engineer, in any field. Making something better. Interest & passion!We are undervalued in society (and by the girls :-( ) Come on girls, passion drives us!This thread has cracked me up with some of the great comments :-)Keep up the good work guy's :-)

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 10:55:32 pm
content: "If we had our priorities right, electronics engineers and technicians would be treated above the rich, the celebrities and the politicians, and afforded due privileges. After all there would be no TVs, mobile phone toys, internet or computers without us and society would be in the dark ages. The government can start with tax free electronics test equipment."We could organise a global strike? Turn everything off, take it all apart and force them to bow down to our collective might!Also, Uk class system is horrific (developed country my arse!). I'm lucky to be in Scotland so tuition is free. Personally I'm very happy to pay that back through my taxes and hopefully end up paying the higher rate eventually as well.My worry is that as I haven't done a "Gap yah" or any "Voluntourism" employers will be able to pick me out as not being middle class enough for their jobs. That's essentially why this shit's "good for your CV" right?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 07:01:56 am
content: Quote from: Tris20 on February 26, 2014, 10:55:32 pmAs if we didn't have enough incentives for people "calling themselves engineers"

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 12:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: Tris20 on February 26, 2014, 10:55:32 pmRight, but to be treated well, it's important to steal, or organise a stealing-structure.Better to become a politician for the ones who want to do that.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 12:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 22, 2014, 08:49:36 amTelling you're an electonics engineer is telling what your position is, in a colorless way, like you're a bank employee.Tell them about your passions, what kind of machines you develop, what toys you made, with who you do it.It still makes the Kardashian and Hilton types run, but now the interesting ones have more place to discover you.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 12:50:26 pm
content: It should be a case of everyone from the bin man to the banker is equal, sure some jobs deserve more than others, but as much as most people want to sneer at bin men (who earn a good wage) they'd soon be hacked off if their bins were not collected, it's called living in a society......

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 12:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on February 27, 2014, 12:49:45 pmI'm currently chatting to a nice young lady that works at my local super market on facebook and she seems very impressed with my skills (the "position" is not much talked about).

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 01:57:06 pm
content: I haven't read the entire thread, so if this has already been said, I apologise.People will always try to make themselves feel better with the titles they give themselves. Janitors and garbage (wo)men call themselves sanitation engineers, and so on. Titles don't matter, titles mean nothing. If someone calling themselves an engineer makes you feel vulnerable, then I would postulate that you already felt vulnerable before you declared this to be an issue.Don't get your britches in a twist over it; there are bigger things that should be bothering you.Now, back to the off-topic conversation, already in progress.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 02:01:59 pm
content: Titles are often quite arbitrary.When I worked at the school bus factory, one of my co-worker's title was "weight analyst." I was curious, so I asked her how much a school bus weighed. She couldn't tell me. I wondered how the "weight analyst" could not know this. She wasn't really an "analyst" at all - she typed some information about the order into a computer, and it spat out an "OK" or "Not OK." She was really a "data entry clerk." The "analyst" was the person who wrote the program.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 02:19:54 pm
content: Not that I care for the title itself but we have to give things and concepts names, it's part of our language and means we can discuss and exchange information using a commonly understood system. This breaks down when we start giving the wrong names to things. As tempting as it is particularly when talking to not so technical people I will never ever call an MCU a processor but many do. I even read a section in a book that got this all in a muddle.I'm sure people would be in a rage if they were told their delicate brain operation was going to be done by a GP (general practitioner - doctor - aka useless twit that dishes out perceptions) calling themselves a surgeon instead of it being done by a brain surgeon...... nuff said !

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 02:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 27, 2014, 02:19:54 pmAgreed; language is for communication, so common terms are important. I'm just saying that a title isn't really important and should not be considered a definitive explanation of what someone does. Titles are titles, qualifications are qualifications, and with a few exceptions, anyone can call themselves anything they like.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 03:15:50 pm
content: The title simply defines the persons usual work, if we all know who is the engineer, who is the salesman, who is the storeman, who is the MD when someone approachs an organization they know the nature of the reason to contact, they know what type (tittle of person) will be able to deal with that inquiry. It's that simple, that is what titles are for. When I take calls at work I know who does what job and if I don't know them and exactly what they are doing I know by their title if they are suited to take the call further. It's like having a resistor colour coding scheme, we all know what os what that way.

author: mechtonia
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 03:30:32 pm
content: I'm a Mechanical Engineer with a BSME and a PE license in my state. I always love it when I call the front desk to get a light bulb changed, or a leaky faucet fixed in a hotel room and they promise to "send the engineer to fix it".

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 04:27:21 pm
content: Quote from: mechtonia on February 27, 2014, 03:30:32 pmThat is in the USA and is some kind of union thing is it not? I remember once having a demo in a conference and we wanted to unload the boxes with equipment and carry them to the demo location we were stopped. We were not allowed to carry anything inside the building there were special people for. Ok so these special people moved the boxes to our demo location. We started unpacking and plugging it into the wallsockets and again we were stopped. We were not allowed to plug anything into any sockets, there were special people for. So what is this? Union stuff or work protection or??? Here in Europe we do everything (well almost everything) ourselves, it was a strange experience.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 05:35:25 pm
content: PE's aren't a union, but rather a professional association (National Society of Professional Engineers). I could see such an interpretation though, as not all engineers in the US are members.Depending on what they're doing, an engineer here may not need a PE license for advancement if there aren't any legal requirements to do so, so some chose to skip it (exams are also quite difficult, so that helps in keeping the number of PE's down too). There are however instances where such a license is required (i.e. legal standpoint), and without it, you'll run into a glass ceiling that cannot be surpassed.As per the conference thing, it could have had a union reason behind it, but I'd think that had to do more with liability issues instead (i.e. obtaining lower insurance rates). My reasoning behind this, is unions aren't that prevalent in the US (don't have the governmental cooperation/acceptance that they do in other parts of the world such as Europe), but lawyers here will sue over anything if they think they remotely have the slightest chance of getting some money out of it.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 05:55:15 pm
content: Probably a good time to note that in many US states, you can take the PE licensing exam without having a formal academic degree...http://nodegreepe.com/who-is-eligible-2/You won't generally see a lot of PEs in the electronics field, though. Mostly a requirement in civil or structural engineering to establish a system of legal liability for screwups. Gives the state the ability to pull the license and prevent someone from practicing in the field if they prove themselves to be incompetent.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 09:19:09 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 27, 2014, 05:35:25 pmAh ok I see, same as that in the USA everywhere there are these yellow signs to watch out for the wet floor not to slip. Here if you slip in the McDonalds and hurt yourself, you are lucky you get a free burger

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 09:44:09 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2014, 12:20:32 pmSame here, but there's a huge misunderstanding. Due to the economy that turned too good, we've got a lot of people with useless Master diplomas, like psychology, history, art, music,... that call themself high educated.Some of them say they don't want to date a plumber. But the rarely see a plumber ready for marriage, because plumbers don't want to downdate.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 12:39:14 am
content: Quote from: mechtonia on February 27, 2014, 03:30:32 pmLike saying at a party " I design and build Formula 1 race cars cars for a living" and having someone reply "Oh, so you're a mechanic".

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 01:22:58 am
content: Quote from: mechtonia on February 27, 2014, 03:30:32 pm<joke>you are an engineer and you can't change a lightbulb or fix a leaky faucet ? what has the world come to ...</joke>How many theoreticalmathematicians does it take to change a lightbulb ? None. A solution exists for this problem. no need to re-prove.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 07:03:15 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on February 28, 2014, 12:39:14 amrevenge

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 05:25:27 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on February 28, 2014, 12:39:14 amOr like being a company's network administrator, and your employer calls you to his office and says, "You're good with computers right? So you must know how to use photoshop. I need you to design a monthly advertisment for us."Happened to me before.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 05:33:10 am
content: Q: You're good with computers right? So you must know how to use photoshop. I need you to design a monthly advertisment for us.A: You're human, right? So you must know how to use water. I need you to design a desalination plant for me.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 06:01:22 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on March 02, 2014, 05:33:10 amThat's what I wanted to say. What I actually said was something closer to "I'll get right on that sir." I managed to google my way through it.Not the best job. Even though I was only hired to do networking and tech support, before I left I was also their web designer, sudo inventory manager (result of designing their inventory database), handled their mass marketing, created monthly advertisements, and ordered weekly supplies. I was also at the owner's beck and call when he needed his personal computers fixed or needed some personal pictures edited. Once the owner called me on the weekend to photoshop a personal picture for him (put his head on a baby's body for some unknown reason); off the clock of course. And they were angry when I told them I was leaving for another job.I should have known it was going to be a rough gig when on my first day there the owner called me into his office and said "what is java, and do I need it?"

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 07:01:09 am
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 02, 2014, 06:01:22 amYou should really have had that running as a restricted user

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 07:20:18 am
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on March 02, 2014, 07:01:09 amUnless he meant 'Pseudo'i.e Doing someone elses job !

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 07:27:25 am
content: Probably because the rest had no ability to mess it up completely, and he was the only one who could fix the errors they put in without having a sale to a dummy customer called Oops.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 12:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on March 02, 2014, 07:20:18 amUm, this one actually. My bad. Too much time spent with linux I guess.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 12:21:43 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 02, 2014, 05:25:27 amWhen people ask me how to use some app on their pc I tell them that's like asking the local tv repair guy some question about their favourite tv show.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 12:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on March 02, 2014, 12:21:43 pmI simply tell them"I dunno."or"It shall forever remain a mystery!"or some equivalent where I don't care about the logical consequences oftheirtechnical incompetence. Life is so simple sometimes.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 12:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on March 02, 2014, 12:43:49 pmMust be nice. I always need my paycheck too much to try it.The last time I told my previous employer that something wasn't technologically possible (he had saved thousands of names and addresses to a file, and then asked me how he could get it to re-organize based on last name. Only it wasn't an excel sheet, it was a plain word document.), he turned over to the person next to him and said "Wish I had Bill Gates working for me. I bet he's smart enough to do it."Good memories.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 01:00:19 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 02, 2014, 12:54:49 pmI'm having difficulty reading the tone of your post but just to be pedantic, this is actually perfectly possible and quite simple to do. I forget specifics but it's only a couple of lines in a terminal.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 01:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on March 02, 2014, 01:00:19 pmYou're telling me that you can alphabetize a file by last name in a word document that has no table (and in this case, no real method of organization), while maintaining the correct correlation between each name and each address (see example text below)? If you can, then I would call you a wizard sir.John Doe 3546 Lakewoods Lane FL, 74953Jane Matherson465 Hollywood Ave AL, 93530286 Lake Martin Rd.GA, 87923 Molly Smith

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 01:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 02, 2014, 01:34:53 pmAll you would need to do is figure out which way most of the addresses are formatted, deal with those, and have the process write the un-parseable data to another file, which you can then parse on it's own.So, since 2/3 have the name first in your example, all you would need to do is read the line until you got to a number (which would give you the name), then read until you get to a comma or another number (which would give you the address), then read the number (which would give you the zip code).Then do a variant of the same on the other file.It's mildly annoying, but definitely possible. It's easier with a good terminal (so OSX or some linux variant rather than windows).

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 01:56:28 pm
content: Yes, that would work ok if there was a discernible pattern. But in a random mess of madness I couldn't just regex my way through it.Perhaps if this was an important work-related document I would have put more effort into coming up with some clever solution, but it was the owners personal holiday card mailing list. And I had advised him to use an excel sheet for this purpose instead of a word document for this exact reason. He ended up getting another co-worker to copy and paste each address into excel and then organizing it. Of course, the next year he came back with the same problem as he made his new mailing list in word again.Also, no linux at this company. We were still sporting XP and 2000.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 01:56:39 pm
content: Indeed, it's almost trivial. Write a bunch of regex's for the common ways the addresses can be formatted. Run through it, and you did well you have a fair percentage of matches. Check what doesn't match, and try to capture that with either a new regex or some tweaks. Then when you get a high enough percentage of matches you run it. And the non-matches you dump to file for your manual processing pleasure. I've processed this sort of thing (and much much worse) using some perl scripts.Customer: Oh lookey here, we have to migrate this backend, but unfortunately the cat's eaten our database design.Me: no worries. I like a fun puzzle!

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 01:59:20 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 02, 2014, 01:56:28 pmMmmmh? Empty lines seperate addresses. Newlines and comma's are field seperators. An address is comprised of a certain combination of fields. Oh whatever shall we do?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 02:05:32 pm
content: I think the point is that they guy had not used a common formatting pattern and expected a miracle.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 02:06:48 pm
content: It's not a miracle, it's regex!

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 02:11:40 pm
content: Fine, fine, I forfeit. Apparently it can be done, and I bow to other's mastery of regex.I've only had to use regex to check filenames, not parse through text documents, but I can see how it could be done now that I've thought about it. In all fairness though, when I was working for that company I had no regex or programming experience and was hired to just do tech support for their network. So to me it would have been a miracle to pull off.I didn't learn how to program at all until I took my next job.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 03:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: obd.tech on February 23, 2014, 12:01:34 pmTry this pickup line "do you want to see my Arduino?". Works every time.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 03:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 02, 2014, 02:11:40 pmThat's wise, but a bit self-defeating in the way you put it. When it comes to regex, there's a whole lot that can be done. You can do things like find prime numbers with a regex. It's nuts.It's a long, steep road to getting good at it, but it can be done, and it will pay off for you if you can, because very few are good.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 03:20:50 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 02, 2014, 01:34:53 pmPiece of cake, write a Mechanical Turk job to extract the last name of each record and the sort automatically.Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

author: nuhamind2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 03:30:28 pm
content: do you want to see my Arduino Mega ?. Should works betterQuote from: zapta on March 02, 2014, 03:08:58 pm

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 03:34:09 pm
content: And then she goes, "sure, want to see my lilypad?"

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 04:58:49 pm
content: This thread has taken some interesting turns.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 01:03:21 am
content: The awkward moment when she invites you to her place and pulls an actual arduino out of a drawer.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 01:34:12 am
content: Quote from: Dave on March 03, 2014, 01:03:21 amThat's mean she's a keeper!

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 02:00:07 am
content: Quote from: zapta on March 03, 2014, 01:34:12 amOr a pothead, if you believe some folks on here....

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 02:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: photonpunk on March 02, 2014, 01:34:53 pmExport the word file to plain text, use some awk magic (awk is also available for Windows) and you'll have sorted and formatted addresses. Output them in CSV, import that into Excel and tell the boss that miracles take just a little bit longer than regular tasks.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 02:33:20 pm
content: "Darling, would you like to see my etchings?" has a whole new meaning when you make your own PCBs.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 04:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on March 03, 2014, 02:33:20 pmAnd hopefully, when she talks about the small size of your "package", she is talking about pin pitch

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 04:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on March 03, 2014, 02:33:20 pmAnd she will let you using the big kitchen oven to reflow your boards. Can it be any better that this?

author: nuhamind2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 05:37:39 pm
content: "Darling,can you help me checking my hardware. Please hold the probe firmly while I pull the switch on"

author: electrolux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:56:44 pm
content: I know someone who is a bathroom fitter and told me he is a engineer, and another one who's wife said that he is a civil engineer and he turned out to be an I.T man that looks after the computers of a civil engineering company. UNBLEVEBLE

author: Br0ski
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 12:42:48 am
content: To me anyone who goes above and beyond trying to get the details and facts in order to build something in working order is technically an engineer.Someone who goes above and beyond that to prove something via experiments and theory is a scientist.This is why many Scientists were Engineers.I have a BSIE, that's Industrial Engineering,www.iienet.org. I build, design and enhancesystems. Mainly manufacturing systems but my fundamental degree can be applied to data and internet systems all the way to construction. Most people think I build cars? and that's it. Trying to explain to my parents what degree I graduated with was rediculous. But everything has a system (laymens terms: ecosystem (cars electrical and UI system).I make the system more efficient; eliminate waste, using six sigma, design of experiments, statistical process control, total quality management, ergonomics etc. to get and maintain control of the system to cut costs and reduce waste.My profession was branched off of Mechanical Engineering after WWII. You can look up Walter Shewhart or Genichi Taguchi for some "founding fathers".But I hesitate to tell people I am an Engineer (or Industrial Engineer) because it leads to 20 questions and me ending with a half hour speech so I just avoid the fact. Another thing is I took the PE exam once and missed it by 3 points so I am not a licsensed PE. Much respect for those guys who take all the legal responsibilities.I am however an Electronics Technician. I find this some what daunting because someone who had an engineering degree and then went through the military courses as fast as we did would have known that they only taught you a fraction of what it would take to be an Electrical Engineer. However I met a few young minds eager and willing to learn all the fundamentals and read books to advance their knowledge.Currently I like to hobby around with Electronics it is a great stress reliever and I love and enjoy everything technical I like to get to the root cause and fix the issue, this is how I have designed myself, self programming in addition to the various tool sets I have picked up along the way. I like trying to become a Master McGuyver.My title on my business card says Engineer, I just leave it at that. This will indicate what I am seeking when we talk on the phone or in person. It will also warn the dummies most often I just don't want to talk to you.Br0ski O0@Br0ski47

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 01:41:33 am
content: Quote from: Br0ski on June 07, 2014, 12:42:48 amIndeed. I have a B.Sc. Physics, but I haven't done science professionally for twenty years. I have done it as a hobby, basement research.I spent my life split between renovating jobs, building electrical wiring, and electro-mechanical design. I did all the engineering calculation, etc, but had to have the design reviewed by someone who was legally authorised to use a rubber stamp...I was treated by shop workers as "an engineer" up until they saw me machine and weld my own hardware.I was snobbed by engineers until they needed to understand the fundamentals of somethings and then needed my help.In large corporations like Bombardier aerospace, there are plenty of people doing engineering job, such as finite element analysis, who never went to engineering school. They just have a good comprehension of math and the nature of things. For the whole company, say, the plan of the Global Express or Regional Jet which services most short hauls routes between US airports, there maybe be only half a dozen engineers who will sign and approve plans. I know people working there who did not bother renewing their membership with the local Engineer's professional order, yet, who are held in high esteem in the field.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 05:58:39 am
content: When I worked for a while fixing Electronics in the Chemistry Dept of UWA,I found that the Professors,had in the past,designed a lot of the specialist Electronics used for Chemical Analysis.Although they had no Engineering qualifications,the stuff was all well designed.Much of it had been replaced with Commercially made stuff by then,but there was no Commercial equivalent when they made them.

author: PE1RKI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 09:05:01 am
content: after reading this thread, its nice to be on the other side of the fence with a real degree in engineering,keep on studying!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 02:37:41 pm
content: Once I was staying in a nice hotel in Baltimore. The bathroom did not work and when I called the front desk they said that they are sending an 'engineer'. That surprised me, around here we call them maintenance guys or plumbers.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 03:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 07, 2014, 02:37:41 pmSome people will accept a fancy title in lieu of actual money.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 04:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 07, 2014, 03:18:11 pmGenerally the longer the title the less authority. E.g. 'president' vs 'vice president for marketing of test equipment in europe'. Each term restricts the scope.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 04:53:54 pm
content: The op was probably injecting way too much into -engineer-.to me, sn engineer is one whose job is to engineer. Degrees or experience isn't that important

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 05:46:02 pm
content: When I started my career electronic people had two levels, 'technicians' (no academic degree) and 'engineers' (academic degree), similar to enlisted and officers in the military. I realized pretty soon that the degree does matter and went to college.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 06:39:02 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 07, 2014, 03:18:11 pmThere's a funny coincidence. I will accept actual money in lieu of a fancy title.

author: Br0ski
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 08:21:36 pm
content: Experience will always trump theory and some book you read.Br0ski@Br0ski47

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2014, 08:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 07, 2014, 04:53:54 pmNor even required. In California to be able to hang your shingle out and sell your services as an engineer requires a California P.E. certificate (Professional Engineer,Holder of the Stamp) and i knew a couple of P.E. engineers that didn't even have degrees as they allowed (at one time anyway) a grandfather clause for those with specified work experience to take the exam.As an employee of a company, anyone can have the title of engineer as the company assumes all liability. As a self employed engineer you must have a P.E. to sell your services as an engineer. Other States and Countries laws may vary.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2014, 04:03:03 pm
content: I'm a lowly "enjun-eer" been "enjun-eer'n" since around 1977... seen many a smoke in my days too! Building Smoke, Car Smoke, Cigar Smoke.. and lots of Chip, Resistor and Transistor Smoke! ... and don't forget the Solder Smoke!

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2014, 08:18:43 pm
content: BT (British Telecom) - the previously state owned phone service here in the UK - has realised that they don't have enough people to do the work available, and their contractors are signing work off as complete, when its not. Afraid of having their massive profits bitten into (well, given a nasty toothless suck) by the regulatory watchdog, they have decided to recruit 1600 "engineers".http://www.btplc.com/Careercentre/Ourlocations/UK/Openreach/Thebenefits/index.htmFor those who understandably don't want to wade through all this, I offer a few quotes. See if you can tell me why they don't have enough "engineering" staff available.Quote£17,000 a year before tax. The Dollar is quite weak at the moment, so that is US$28.5K, but of course they only tend to quote the amount with full bonus (which you are unlikely to earn as a trainee)QuoteBecause becoming an engineer takes 3 weeks.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2014, 08:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: Zad on June 09, 2014, 08:18:43 pm"We are still in discussions with the Communications Workers Union on the final terms and conditions for the roles and therefore some of the above terms may alter."Yak."22-28 days’ holiday (depending on how long you’ve been with us)"Wow.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 08:18:57 am
content: Quote from: zapta on June 09, 2014, 08:32:20 pm24 days is minimum in Holland but we have fewer free national holidays then a lot of other countriesHowever we are allowed (not all companies) to buy extra vacation days, in my company an extra 15 so total 39 days but less pay.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2014, 12:53:04 pm
content: When I lived in Australia, it was 20 days, minimum. I had 30. That's 6 weeks of paid vacation for those who are playing along at home.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 01:40:19 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on June 10, 2014, 12:53:04 pmCrap. I live in the wrong country. Thew few companies that do give more than 20 days do so only after 20-25 years of employment. I worked for one place that required three years to get the standard 10 days.In Japan, it's common for employees to have to work on Saturdays to make up for "holidays," which, I suppose, aren't really holidays at all. My co-worker worked there for a year - he asked if he could just work the holiday and have his weekend - they said "no."Many in the US have vacation days, but they have so many duties that they can't take them.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 01:51:09 am
content: Employers in some high-end competitive industries give employees a 60-day sabbatical every seven years in addition to regular 2-week vacation (BrEnglish: "holiday"). I am currently eligible for my 5th sabbatical, but I haven't scheduled it yet (I have 2 years). I may just retire after scheduling my sabbatical. OTOH, why retire when they pay you for having fun?But even counting the 2 months every 7 years, we don't get as many regular annual days off as you blokes in the EU. If everybody goes "on holiday" in August, do companies just stop doing business? Who runs the resort businesses?

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 02:12:52 am
content: In the U.S. it varies by company, no laws dictating vacation. Most companies do have 10-12 official holidays, but vacation as I said varies. Mine started at 2 weeks, 3 weeks after 10 years, 4 weeks after 20, and 5 weeks after 30 years, but I only stayed 27 years before I retired at 59 1/2 years old.Best thing is around 1994 they went to a voluntary 4 day 10 hour work schedule (one could stay on 5/8 if desired), so every weekend was a 3 day weekend, that was really great.It was/is a great company, but I won't name it as people hate "Big Oil Companies" for reasons that usually are not fact based.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 02:26:27 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 12, 2014, 02:12:52 amI love them. They work hard to bring gasoline from deep holes in far deserts all the way to my car here.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 07:19:56 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 12, 2014, 02:12:52 amWe dont hate them. Only emotionalists do so. Look Facebook for that.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 12:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on June 12, 2014, 07:19:56 amYes, I over generalized, but it's a opinion shared by a vast number of people often handed down from generation to generation. It's a easy target for politicians every time gas prices spike even though sales gas taxes are based on percentage of price, so they go up too. Big oil companies ROI is usually less then the fast food companies.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 11:48:53 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on June 12, 2014, 02:26:27 amIt's more likely that the oil comes from the Gulf of Mexico and not the Persian Gulf.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 12:25:42 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on June 12, 2014, 11:48:53 pmIt comes from all over the U.S., 100 year old fields in Calif are still producing. Peak oil has not been reached.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 12:59:51 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 13, 2014, 12:25:42 amNeither has peak price.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 01:27:44 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on June 13, 2014, 12:59:51 amAnd I paid 29 cents for a hamburger as a youth. Raising oil prices in time is what will make alternate fuel supplies a reality rather then the subsidized mess we have today. The whole corn ethanol fraud is an example of government trying to do stuff it has no business doing, and now it's an entrenched lobby that congress can't afford to offend, let alone eliminate.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 03:42:23 am
content: Add as well the Saudi states are investing heavily in gas to fuel based on the Sasol plant method, to increase the value of the product sold at source, and to use the otherwise uneconomical to ship gas they have plenty of. Moving a VLCC full of oil or diesel costs the same, just that you have a better profit margin for diesel over heavy crude.When I was young sweets cost under a cent ( South Africa had a half cent coin until the 1980's) for multiple.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 11:21:59 am
content: The tree huggers are right about one thing: there is a limit on our carbon energy reserves. Some solutions will need to be found or energy prices will continue to rise.I would also add that if you look at the whole petro economy, it makes little sense that we derive 80% of value add on 20% of the petro input (through petro chemical processes). The other 80% is consumed in transportation, the least value-add.I wouldn't mind if prices rise on that portion of the petro consumption. It would be beautiful to see $10/gl or $20/gl gas prices.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 12:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 13, 2014, 11:21:59 amDid you know that it is literally impossible to think about something clearly and without bias once you've assigned a nickname or label that has its own connotation? There's way too much of this namecalling BS going on these days, and it's done to influence the reader/listener without making it obvious that they're being influenced. (It's a cheap trick to sway people to their side.)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 01:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on June 13, 2014, 12:25:25 pmHe used it to give more validity to his point. "I am not a tree hugger and therefore you should take my tree hugger opinion more seriously".You are right, labels are used all the time to manipulate opinions and are a good way to detect bias in the media (e.g "Obama's landmark initiative" vs "Obama's controversial initiative"). NPR for example is full of these subtle manipulations.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 05:48:38 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 13, 2014, 11:21:59 amVisit Europe and your dream comes true today.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 12:42:43 am
content: How to make energy cheaper than coal, and synthetize hydrocarbon fuels...Thorium Remix 2011 (DVD Version)

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 02:58:10 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on June 13, 2014, 12:59:51 ami think its very close. allegedly, the oil coming out of the ground in certain places in the middle east is 90% water.. sea water they have pumped into the ground to push the oil out..however,the following is the testimony from my late grandfather.he worked as a test oil driller. they drilled hundreds of test wells and capped them, over a 20+ year time frame.not one dry spot was found. provided, you were at least 5 miles offshore and drilled at least 5000* feet below the sea floor.he did a lot of drilling off the coast of Europe, and from northern Alaska to the bottom of South America.*might have been 2000 feet, i'm trying to recall.if the price of oil gets to the point that nations start to lose it, there will be rogue oil wells guarded by mercs, all over the world. currently, most of the fields my grandfather explored are offlimits.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 05:27:12 am
content: Quote from: johansen on June 17, 2014, 02:58:10 amDid he leave you a secret map of this locations?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 10:23:42 am
content: QuoteThat's not important. Peak oil or not, it will run out at some point, as our rate of consumption far exceeds its rate of accumulation (production if you will). It is simply a matter of time for that to happen.So it makes sense that we start on a solution on that now.That's something those tree huggers got right.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 11:21:10 am
content: Watch this video and we know, where we will be 20 years from now:Jon Stewart on:An energy independent future:(Sorry, the better video version is blocked in Germany)