Why didn't HP/Keysight/Agilent/Keithley/BK Precision/Datron make Audio Amps? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 01:55:21 am
content: Like especially back in the 80s when all the legendarily good stuff was made (video killed the radio star).My list in the title isn't even exhaustive, could be any of a number of test equipment companies.I mean HP made the 3458A 8.5 digit multimeter... and the first atomic clock... Wouldn't it be entirely within their purview to make a balls-to-the-wall perfect audio amplifier? Put their engineers to task and come up with something out of this world.But no. At least as far as I can tell.Is it the subjective component inherent to audio that stopped them? Did it never occur to them? I mean all the parts are there; audio amplifiers are basically test equipment with audio amplification internal electronics...Should have been right up their alley... at least one of them should have had that creative/romantic instinct to do so

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 02:15:40 am
content: Could they have done it? Sure. But why would it be better than other manufacturers who have the knowledge and have been doing it for years?Turn the question around - why didn't exceptional audio manufacturers make really good test equipment? Companies want to be know for a certain product line so they stick to that and don't (usually) try to challenge an established product line outside what they are known for.

author: squadchannel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 02:38:03 am
content: In the past, IBM also did not manufacture products for the consumer sector. IBM PC etc...You would not use an audio amplifier in business.is not to say thathpnever made products for audio purposes. hp 8903 is an analyzer for audio.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 02:41:48 am
content: https://www.hewlettpackardhistory.com/item/the-barney-oliver-amplifier/https://nscainc.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/A_6824A.pdf

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 02:46:52 am
content: Quotebest go and tell me mates they dont need those flight cases full of amps for there buissness

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 02:49:03 am
content: Quote from: oPossum on February 09, 2025, 02:41:48 amDamn I'd love to hear that amp

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 03:14:12 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on February 09, 2025, 02:15:40 amWell because they're full of hot air and hippy types, and not rigorous lunatic engineers

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 03:56:32 am
content: while possessing advanced knowledge you would be surprised how little outside of their field of expertise most engineers will go at work when they are comfortable, if you don't work, you will learn that, I don't think atomic clock guys want to burn out making another world class product just because their brain might be capable of it.And I think those teams are pretty damn big, so just re coordinating everyone to learn something new and split up the work to be managable for their corporate culture etc is not easy/cheapusually the truth is that its a orchestra of people doing very little (and someone has to write the composition), especially at big companies, its usually not jimmy hendrix lolits the borgand its probably pretty boring and unappealing compared to some advanced design they do at higher frequencies. And less money

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 04:25:52 am
content: Would it not be "child's play" for them at that level?I guess that's the crux of the question: why not eek out some profits here as the expertise, tools, production, etc. has a lot of overlap.Like a toothpick company also making shish kabobs (I couldn't think of a better analogy)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:19:14 am
content: no because difficulty is relative.i.e. in RF you might not consider voltage and current to be a thing (they just operate on power)and you would think it might be childs play for a VLF designer to make audio, but then you realize hes a expert at dealing with a very narrow bandwidth and audio is broad band. they are all different and the only thing you get trying to compare difficulty levels of different engineerings is offending people and also getting punked in a design review . When a design gets precise or complicated enough, there is never that much commonality.and audio has to deal with the monster that is a speaker

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:57:03 am
content: One exception: National Instruments made one: PXIe-4610

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 02:23:54 pm
content: Philips once made both test equipment and consumer grade audio stuff, they weren't the only company doing this.David

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 04:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: factory on February 09, 2025, 02:23:54 pmLike thisBut none seem to play in consumer HiFi

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 04:14:46 pm
content: Quotesome of there audio gear was aimed at the pro market, had some of there 100v line speakers and microphones,both which sounded very good, at a previous place of work.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 05:07:30 pm
content: My system’s FM tuner is a Philips 1851.A traditional solid-state unit with multi-gang tuning capacitor and slide-rule dial.There is enough unused volume inside the housing to hold an amplifier: perhaps the original plan was to make a complete receiver.

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 07:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 09, 2025, 04:12:32 pmThis consumer tat grade enough? they made radios from the 1930s onwards and stereos, midi systems & separates etc. Some older stuff seemed to be rebranded Norelco for the US market.David

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: factory on February 09, 2025, 02:23:54 pmIf you look at many of the Japanese companies in consumer electronics, they also made test equipment - Sony, Trio, National Panasonic, Hitachi, etc. Japan also has a number of test equipment makers who appear to have done nothing else, like TMK, Yokogawa, Hioki, etc.Distribution channels are key to success, and the distribution channels for consumer equipment and test equipment are completely separate. Even if one company operates in both areas they need to treat them more or less like two different businesses.

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:18:04 pm
content: UK/European makers did too, such as Cossor, Grundig, Marconi etc. And seeing that budget Philips stereo, has reminded me of the "crime against humanity" Schneider stereo from a Photonicinduction video, Schneider once sold test gear too.David

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:28:08 pm
content: Quote from: factory on February 09, 2025, 08:18:04 pmMost of the European consumer makers had some kind of professional equipment groups. Cossor, EMI, Decca, Thorn, Solartron and other UK consumer makers had either test equipment, defence, emergency service or other non-consumer divisions. Many of those, especially Thorn, were heavily into components as well as equipment, and often made almost every component in their consumer products, as well as the product itself. It also felt like anyone who pressed vinyl records (or shellac before that) also made weapons.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 10:03:39 pm
content: Well the reason is that they are test instrument manufacturers and not audio equipment or consumer hifi manufacturers. That is that.However, it could be that if you use these accurate instruments from HP, Tek etc... to measure a very expensive tube amp you may not see why it should be that expensive.

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 04:54:40 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 09, 2025, 01:55:21 amYes but the first reviewer to write about it would call it "sterile" and suggest that their SET tube amp sounded nicer.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 05:24:38 am
content: Quote from: Geoff-AU on February 10, 2025, 04:54:40 amAnd they'd be correct. 😉

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 06:16:10 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on February 10, 2025, 05:24:38 amoh boy....

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 09, 2025, 01:55:21 amSurely this question has been asked ever since the birth of capitalism. I think in general companies often embody particular expertise in their personnel, such that they might be exceptional at designing test gear, but just don't have the cutting edge skills needed to compete with the best audio amp manufacturers.Also, expanding into other product types might well require some serious marketing effort in order to gain credibility in that new space; it might need a completely new business model and processes (eg if HP decided to sell ice cream); and it might require establishing complex supply chains. Also, the company might need to buy in expertise on regulatory issues (what does HP know about food safety?).So I can see lots of reasons why companies decide to stick with what they are good at. Expanding too widely might well mean being mediocre, or average, in that new space. It's better to be exceptional at what you do.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:24:58 pm
content: I think a more interesting question is how did a company like McIntosh, that makes exotic audio products for wealth consumers, end up supplying large numbers of amps for rock bands to take on the road. The have never been a purveyor of ruggedised products, and I don't think they ever produced customised touring tolerant products for people like the Grateful Dead.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 10, 2025, 12:24:58 pmWait, you're saying that McIntosh made guitar amps? I don't think so. (Besides, the wording in your post is contradictory.)You must be thinking of Marshall. Or Vox or Fender or Peavey or Ampeg or ...Maybe you meant to write "the interesting question is how did a company like McIntoshnotend up making amps for rock bands?".

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:38:01 pm
content: QuoteAlmost anything can be made tour proof ,just use the right flight case, an inner rack to mount the amps thats got suspension between it and the outer road case are pretty common for delicate kit ,however making something roadie proof is a much tougher challenge.Quotenope McIntoshQuotehttps://www.mcintoshlabs.com/about/news/mcintosh-and-the-grateful-deads-wall-of-sound

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:48:53 pm
content: Ah, thanks for the correction. Interesting.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 10, 2025, 12:38:01 pmAlmost anything needs additional protection for shipping, even the ruggedised amps. The issue is how roughly treated most kit gets between the unpacking and the repacking. Life is rough on the road.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 04:28:38 pm
content: I just bought a Denon 7.2ch AVR (7 normal channels, 2 sub pre-amp channels). It was £379 delivered to my door. I doubt you could buy much more than a scope probe from Keysight for under £400 / $500 USD. Those companies aren't set up to make high volume consumer gear. And the low volume stuff is mostly woo-woo anyway, you cannot hear the difference between THD0.01% and THD0.0001%, and biasing your cables with 72V DC during the manufacturing process and insisting on oxygen free copper for speaker cable is all just nonsense that wouldn't go down well in a company that prides itself on science and measurement accuracy.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 04:43:49 pm
content: Quotein most cases stuff stays in the racks,and once in place it rarely gets moved unless its ment toQuoteindeed it is ,ive spent a big part of my life on it

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 12:31:04 am
content: Regarding the Grateful Dead's use of McIntosh amps for their "wall o'sound":While they did use these amps (see the blue meters that show vividly here), did McIntosh actually make any equipment that was sold as dedicated rock-concert gear? I don't think so; those amps were their standard rack-mount ones (MC2300s) that Owsley Stanley bought and installed in cabinets.No big deal, just wondering about this detail.Still pretty damn impressive. I've never seen anything like this, and I've seen the Dead (at the Oakland Coliseum).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 01:24:11 am
content: Why would companies which make premium test equipment want to compete in a commodity market?I do not know what HP was doing, but Tektronix encouraged engineers to work on their own projects outside of work with company resources, and some did design and build audio power amplifiers.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 02:37:54 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 09, 2025, 04:25:52 amBack in the day, really good test equipment was sold for similar prices to a "top of the line car", up to a house, & there were a lot of large technical organisations who could afford them, so the profit motive wasn't there for consumer items.Many large electronics manufacturers, like Siemens, Philips, Marconi, RCA, & AWA (in Australia), did make very good test instruments as well as consumer equipment, plus TV, Radio & line transmission equipment.AWA for instance, made a generation of Noise & Distortion Test sets, which were superior to the contemporary products from HP, but as they were a niche product, eventually lost interest.,

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 05:42:27 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 09, 2025, 04:25:52 amIt was a solved problem, or could have been, by the time big bipolar PNP ring emitter transistors became available, which go back to at least 1980. Quasi-complementary designs with all NPN output stages were possible that were practically as good, so it could have been a solved problem earlier.I think HP sold 4-quadrant power supplies that could be configured to operate as servo amplifiers, but they were not required to have low distortion.QuoteThink of the opportunity cost. Was there something better which the design teams could be working on which would return greater profits?Maybe it would be better to design and manufacturer the test instruments that the audio producers rely on, like distortion analyzers, curve tracers, etc.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 05:29:43 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 10, 2025, 04:28:38 pmYes,nowyou can do that, but I can also get a $100 100MHz LCR meter or any of a myriad of test equipment for peanuts that those same companies wouldn't compete with.But that wasn't always the case, and as there is a market for the cutting edge test equipment, so there is a market for cutting edge audio power amplification.During the 70s and 80s this was even more pronounced.Also, yes, a good power amplifier makes a difference. A huge one.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 09:23:38 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 09, 2025, 04:25:52 amThe B2B and B2C channels are very different, and at that time HP was B2B.HP was making good profits in its marketplace, and had no need to enter a different fickle marketplace where they would have been one of many "me-too" suppliers.HP worked out that given the amount of money they were paying hotels in the Bay Area for visiting employees, they could have put up their own hotel and made a profit. HP decided not to enter that market, because it would have taken too much of management's attention away from their principal markets.A lot of business is knowing whatnotto do.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 11:52:00 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 12, 2025, 09:23:38 amIn retrospect, they should probably have made the same decision about entering the (mini) computer industry.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 01:30:44 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on February 12, 2025, 11:52:00 amFrom memory...Their hp2000 had a 25 year lifetime, and they needed something to control their test equipment.The 3000 introduction was botched, leading to a "Bill and Dave story" about Paul Ely (q.v.). Nonetheless they had a 36 year life.Many (autonomous) divisions then proceeded to create their own "desktop calculators", so named as to avoid provoking corporate immune systems relating to "computers". IIRC they were all successful islands.That was tidied up with their 68k families, which were also successful.The successor PA-RISC families were very successful, and opened up many markets, especially telecoms.The when PA-RISC was running out of steam they created the Itanic which was, um, less successful. It had two major failings: presuming compilers could use the hardware, and wasting lots of energy on speculative execution just as TDP limits were becoming important.So overall it was usefully successful for the most part, with the glaring exceptions being the Itanic and the 3000 introduction.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 01:48:37 pm
content: They did make audio amplifiers. They are called audio analyzers, and you can listen to sine waves, and it even tell you how much distortion you have.