Are those all in one water coolers any good? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 09:40:51 pm
content: i have been considering water cooling my CPU. I expect that any water cooling will be more effective than air. So I started looking at bits and yea it's not cheap. But then I stumbled across thesehttps://www.scan.co.uk/products/corsair-hydro-series-h75-120mm-all-in-one-hydro-cpu-cooler-2x-120mm-sp120-pwm-fans-white-led-pump-in. Well I do wonder if they are any good. I was preparing myself to purchase a dual 140m fan radiator or even 2 of them to make sure I dumped the heat as effortlessly as possible.Now as it happens I actually work for a radiator manufacturer and potentially could probably drag something out of a scrap bin that does not leak and would not even have to worry about a fan on it. With these radiators costing near what a car one does well... erm...So my limited knowledge of thermals would tell me that in order for this to outperform my air cooler I need the radiator to have more surface area than the air cooled heat sink. At the end of the day the heat rejection is a function of CPU temperature to ambient difference and the amount of time the system has to blow the ultimate coolant - ambient air - over the radiator to dump as much heat as possible. But do these puny little radiators cut it? Are they no better than air cooled and just a gimmick or a decent entry to water cooling?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 10:12:22 pm
content: Oh well, I just found a 2x140mm one, I've gone with that. It also has a quick coupling in it so that it can be expanded.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 12:35:52 am
content: I have the Corsair Hydro Series H100-110 on my 32 core ThreadRipper 2990wx that uses around 375 W when heavily loaded. This is my first water cooling system ever. I was surprised how little plumbing there is compared to other systems I've seen on youtube. It works fantastic. The machine is extremely quiet even under full load and also stays cool.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 01:03:34 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 18, 2020, 09:40:51 pmYou're doomed from the start then. Water coolingisair cooling.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 04:03:22 am
content: Quote from: mc172 on April 19, 2020, 01:03:34 amDon't be pedantic. Water cooling is water to air cooling but that's just semantics, obviously the distinction here is direct air cooling vs water to air cooling. The advantage of water is that it has a tremendous capacity to absorb heat and you can use a pump to rapidly move the water away from the heat source and replace it with new cooler water instead of relying purely on conduction to the heat dissipating fins. Then you can cool the water with a large water to air heat exchanger (radiator) located elsewhere in the case.The downside is that water likes to leak and having a water cooling loop creates opportunities for a mess.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 06:22:36 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 19, 2020, 04:03:22 amYup, there's a reason why few cars since the VW Beetle have used air cooling.I can't compare across comparable enough cars but in the early 80s I had a 1980 Honda XR250 motorcycle with an air cooled engine and 1000 mile / 1600 km oil change interval. The XR250 had 24.6 HP while the EPA-satisfying XLS250 had 23.4 HP.Now I have a 2019 CRF250L. It's essentially the same HP with 24.5 EPA- and EURO4-satisfying ponies (I think around an easy 30 if you uncork the intake and exhaust). But now it is fuel injected, has a cat converter, ABS brakes, and ... is water cooled. And has an 8000 mile oil change interval.Eight *thousand* miles. Thirteen thousand km. Eight times longer than the 1979-2005 air cooled bikes.QuoteI believe the units being discussed come with the water loop already assembled from the factory? I imagine it's pretty reliable.[when building PCs I specify all the parts myself, but have the store I order them from assemble and test them because they charge SFA for doing so (way way less than my time would be worth) and because they build machines every day while I do it once every few years, so if anything turns up DOA they have other parts to swap in to debug it while I don't]

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 08:08:55 am
content: Wow, looks like a water cooling can do a job very well now.I remember tried it on Xeon without any overlocking way back and one of worst experience - hell noise...Eventually, I replaced it with beefy Noctua fans and much bigger case where I place EATX+ MB horizontally

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 08:26:32 am
content: Quote from: mc172 on April 19, 2020, 01:03:34 amIf you read my post I explained that and that the advantage would only be better heat dispersal given more surface area.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 08:49:45 am
content: I bought this one:https://www.overclockers.co.uk/alphacool-eisbaer-280mm-cpu-aio-water-cooling-unit-black-hs-008-ac.htmlIt was up against a similar Corsair one that cost less. It does slightly more airflow for slightly less noise. What does annoy me is that none of these products actually come with any specifications. If you ring my employer up and ask for a radiator to be designed they want an awful lot of information more than how big it should be. I picked this one because it can be expanded as a system. I am toying with the idea of dropping the £400 on a Ryzen 9 3900X, it has apart from 12 cores to my R7 2700X's 8, 64MB of cache to my 16MB so much more cache per core and from the little i can tell I need more cache for BOINC/rosetta jobs.I just tweaked my RAM settings again and dropped tRAS from 31 down to 29 (stock is 42 but this is 3.6GHz @ 3GHz) and now my CPU saturates with 15 work units whereas before it ran 96% so I dropped to 14WU's and now I am back to 96% processor time so looks like I need more data throughput which I will not get anywhere for cheap (one can dream of 4 channel RAM) but I think ultimately that is what the Cache is for to try and make best use of RAM bandwidth and keep as much data local at a time as possible.However the R9 3900X run's RAM at 3.2GHz, my current board an Aorus X470 ultra gaming say's it only goes to 2933MHz but then if the RAM controller is in the processor what does the motherboard have to do with it other than a PCB layout that can cope.In the past my R7 2700X has auto overclocked up to 4.1GHz (3.2GHz as bought) as a stock setup if I reduce my core count to 2 cores so I know that it can do the speed but for the temperature.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 01:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 19, 2020, 04:03:22 amYup. Obviously properly done water cooling is more effective than mere air cooling. We've been doing this on car engines for decades. There's no contest.For CPU cooling, same thing. To get something equivalent with pure air cooled heatsinks, it requires huge and heavy heatsinks, which can be tough to fit on a motherboard/in your case, and can damage the motherboard depending on how it's mounted (some of them are just monsters.)Quote from: james_s on April 19, 2020, 04:03:22 amYup. Had a Corsair H100i (first version I think) and it leaked after a few years of operation. I should have been more cautious; a couple months before the leak happened, I had done some maintenance on this computer and noticed very light cracking on the tubing. I didn't think much of it at the time, bad idea. Anyway, it leaked right over the graphics card as is usual, and it killed it. Fortunately nothing else was damaged.These days I would recommend Alphacool (which I now have) or Be Quiet solutions instead of Corsair.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:02:37 pm
content: AIO water coolers do not provide better cooling than good air cooler, some are even significantly worse. They are not more silent as well. Also you should expect that it likely won't live more than 4-5 years. Not to say there is quite high to ignore possibility it will leak and destroy your computer. IMHO the only reason to use one might be for transportation. As heavy heatsink mounted on MB is not good for transporting without additional support.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:04:05 pm
content: The problem with air cooling is that heat does not actually move in solid metal that fast. I did an experiment with a heat sink and a power resistor and looked at the heating of the heat sink on my thermal camera. The heat really does not creep up the metal that much. The local fins dump most of it and then there is not enough temperature differential to push it further up the heatsink. The answer is to collect the heat, take it away and then dump it.Radiator fins are designed to turbolate air and get heat out in a way that extruded heat sinks cannot. They have far more surface area.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:05:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 02:02:37 pmis that compared to a put it together yourself system? At the end of the day i cannot buy the component parts for what this costs, it's 2x 140mm fans which is far more air volume than the 80mm fan on my stock heat sink.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:06:51 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 19, 2020, 01:54:58 pmNope it's not. Air coolers have heat pipes which work like water transferring heat to large radiator.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:08:24 pm
content: Not the stock ones.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 02:05:55 pmYou can buy air cooler with two 140 mm fans if you want. Quite ridiculous comparison with stock cooler. But generally there is no big reason to go above 120mm fan unless you do extreme overclocking. Water cooling might have some advantage only if you build custom loop for cooling GPU as well.Test results starting from 3:50

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:15:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 02:08:24 pmBuy higher end AMD and you will get stock cooler with heat pipes. Again comparing measly stock cooler and AIO is ridiculous.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 02:04:05 pmLOL what? What solid metal? There is fluid inside them. And they transfer heat very fast.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:24:02 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 02:15:12 pmAs I said above I can get my CPU to 4.1GHz by just turning so many cores off that the 2 remaining cores have so much cooling that they overclock by themselves without me having to do anything.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:25:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 02:22:35 pmNot all, a lot of the stock coolers usually for sub 85W CPU's are a copper core heat shrunk into an aluminium tube with fins coming off it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:27:16 pm
content: QuoteDid you mind painting heatsink surface or at least attaching a piece of adhesive tape on it's surface? By default it works like mirror for IR, so you won't see actual heatsink temperature by IR camera. You may look at piece of metal heated to 100oC and see 40oC reflected from something else. I suspect you don't know how to use IR camera properly.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 02:25:37 pmI thought you were talking about solid metal heat pipes. Yet again, even mentioning cheap stock coolers in AIR vs AIO comparison is ridiculous.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:37:59 pm
content: i don't think i will be able to fit a huge air coolor. At the moment I have a ton of fans anyway. For all the hype the manufacturers make about their fans they never give performance and with good reason, they are all shit! If I get the radiator outside of the case i can easily make an adapter for ebmpapst 4114 series fans, those kick ass and on their minimum speed will outperform any over-hyped junk that all PC accessory makers sell.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:41:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 02:37:59 pmWhat is your CPU? As your stock cooler does not even have heat pipes, I guess $40 mid size air cooler should be more than enough. If you watched that youtube video, small air cooler beats small AIO.QuoteThere are tons of cooler reviews with performance comparison charts.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:44:02 pm
content: In fact I can tell you why water versus air is the same. The fans are so awful that they push less air through a radiator than the straight fins of the air cooler, Radiators present a not insignificant pressure drop because the air is made to go the hard way. Even on vehicle radiators the fans have to be carefully chosen because air flow is not everything, if the fan does not have the pressure to get air through the radiator - game over.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:45:21 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 02:41:30 pmit's a Ryzen 7 2700, I am thinking about a R9 3900X but that is not much more power hungry.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:45:35 pm
content: Not to say if you buy $50 air cooler VS $120 AIO of the same performance, you can invest remaining $70 into hardware that actually makes a difference. Like SSD, RAM, Better CPU, whatever.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 02:27:16 pmIt was a black one, usual 100x250x30mm from RS 6mm thick base and fins every 12mm. it was also not a test about raw temperature but actual movement of heat up the base plate which it did not.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 02:45:21 pmIt's certainly doesn't need AIO. Anything above mid range AIR cooler won't make a difference.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 02:45:35 pmYes i am not entirely silly. i have decent Corsair RAM that will do 3.6GHz, again "if" you read my posts further back I have substantially overclocked the RAM already, Yes i have a nice intel SSD thank you not that this makes much difference with computational speed of the computer and most hard drives now are fast enough to only be a bottle neck for very specific tasks. As I already explained if you read my aim is to maximise BOINC work - something to do with a virus without a vaxine and just for the hell of it. As for a CPU, $50 won't do a lot, that nice R9 3900X is £400+, there is no point in making a small jump to something like an R7 3700X might as well spend the extra £100 for something really earth shattering in fact the per core cost of the 3700X and 3900X is the same.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:56:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 02:48:47 pmWell it currently does 3.45GHz tops on the stock cooler, it's rated for 3.2GHz and as I already said if you read it will do up to 4.1GHz if kept cool enough. With air cooling I can't do a lot. I cannot fit one of those huge things in there and to prevent recirculated air inside i need a ton of fans so I might as well get AIO water, put the radiator outside the case and put my excessive amount of fans onto the radiator if I don't just fit some real fans. Having to have PC fans either side of the radiator is just saying that those fans are shit. I can get one real fan and really have it dumping that heat.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 02:52:51 pmOne more reason to buy AIR cooler since it creates at least some airflow around CPU area.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 02:57:48 pm
content: the cheapest i found when looking in the market is segotep halo blue around USD40 but i cant find it in ebay anymore... i bought 2, one as spare in case i need it in another system..talking about tube leak, i believe there should be always a way around. hardware store should supply few compatible pvc/silicone tubing that can last much longer, and also longer in length if required such as external mounting etc. adapter can also be made/bought easily i believe. i prefer the transparent tube so i can see liquid circulation inside, if rust developing, water pump not working etc, but my water cool is still new so maybe next time for the mod. looking how tough it can cool my old power craving 95W cpu, i believe water cool is only necessary for gamers. if no other good reason, air cool will be sufficient to avoid unnecessary leak/clog/dead pump risk. i put it in my system just because the upgraded cpu will only require larger air cool heatsink that cant fit in the tight space. so i have to bring the heat far outside the area hence the need for the water cool. arguing about the heat dissipation capacity, if you are too afraid that it wont be sufficient, just buy the 2 or 3 fans in the pack, like Simon's linked but £100+ is not something i'm willing to spend, even a single fan is rock solid enough for my need. Segotep also comes with double fan setup..and few other brands come with cheap price. so this is not for a premium grade users only anymore... leak is not the only risk, clogging, rusting also are, seeing whats inside maybe can give better clue if you want to take the risk/mod effort... open loop system also available in tank like setup... you should also aware of thermal mass nature of it, ie when the water heated up due to longer PC usage time, it will takes time to cool down. not really an issue as long as it can be dissipated more than generated by the CPU... equilibrum will take its place...ymmv.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 03:01:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 02:57:19 pmYou won't give up will you? one ram module sits in front of the other, the RAM is not really overclocked, I have as you suggested already bought the best RAM but i am running it slower so I have adjusted the timings but seem to be doing better at 3.0GHz than simply recalculating my 3.6GHz timings implies. Calculate the same clock timings of 42 @ 3.6GHz @ 3.0GHz, I am runnig 29 way better. "cooling" RAM with hot CPU air is not really the bast. By taking the heat right out of the case the RAM will be benefiting from a lower ambient already.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 03:13:16 pm
content: Read your comment about BOINC/rosetta (single comment which I missed). Frankly it's stupid to overclock for that, especially up to the max possible. You double power consumption for marginal performance increase. And you get doubled emissions into atmosphere instead of doing good deeds. IMHO it would be better to simply donate additional money spent on electricity bill.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 03:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 03:01:51 pmAir out of CPU cooler is not that hot and there is also incoming airflow. FYI VRM around CPU often overheat when used with water cooling because there is no airflow. Warm airflow is better than no airflow at all.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 03:26:54 pm
content: adding extra small fan to circulate CPU's surrounding air is not a big task.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 03:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 19, 2020, 04:03:22 amEmphasis added - this is the key part. An "integrated" water cooling solution with approximately 120x120mm radiator doesn't do anything that couldn't be done with a classical copper heat spreader block and large aluminium heatsink of suitable design - i.e., a well-designed and large standard heatsink+fan.If I wanted to go through the hassle of water cooling, I would definitely take the advantages of it by using aconsiderablylarger radiator block than a simple air cooling solution can ever provide. Otherwise, there is no point.Yes, the key in water cooling is you can move the heat elsewhere and spread it over very large areas. Doing the same with a classical heatsink would require huge mass of metal.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 03:56:39 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 03:13:16 pmThe CPU has a maximum power it can run at, in my case 65W to run faster at a given temperature it has to crank the volts up and use more power so the W/CLK goes up. As far as I can tell I cannot exceed this unless I force it. But I have left it on manual setting. The cooler it is the lower the voltage required for that speed so the less power it uses so the faster it can go. I am not using more power I am getting more efficiency with better cooling. I also generate twice the electricity I use and I need something to heat the house anyway.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 04:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 03:20:00 pmYes, with watercooling, I would definitely consider adding a fan running at a very low RPM to cool the components in the vicinity of the CPU, because the motherboards are engineered with the fan cooling in mind.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 04:03:06 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on April 19, 2020, 03:56:19 pmThat is why I picked this particular model. It has a quick connect coupling so I can break that and insert more of the same system, so one more radiator and another pump to compensate for the added pressure drop - perfect.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 04:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 03:56:39 pmFirst of all it can consume more than 65W and does that even without overclock. TDP is not maximum power consumption. Secondly by overclocking you increase power consumption a lot. Overclock without power consumption increase does not exist. If there is power limit which is exceeded, clock simply drops.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 04:14:18 pm
content: Well I am not looking to force it any faster. I am running it on auto settings to sort itself out. Higher speeds could need more power but if that power is linear to speed increase that is fine.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 05:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 03:56:39 pmWhile you are right this phenomenon exists, you are likely severely overestimating it. The difference is almost insignificant. If you want to get seriously higher performance with the same power dissipation, you need to go to a refrigerated system, or even liquid nitrogen.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 05:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 03:56:39 pmYou should not forget that water pump and fans consume power. So even if you got a bit lower temperature (which you won't), you still need to power water pump and any additional fans. As said above, to really have any noticeable power consumption advantage due to lower CPU temperature, you need significant temperature difference, no a fewoC

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 05:30:12 pm
content: I had similar (offline) discussion with a one guy. He completely ignored my suggestion to stick with air as it's trouble free and offers same performance, saying stupid argument that he wants to assemble computer which will run with overclock and don't need any intervention for many years. Guess what, his very expensive AIO leaked in less than a year. He said no water got onto electronics but I have doubts about that since now he has some weird motherboard issues.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 05:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 05:21:11 pmIndeed but then who sets the standard? my CPU can run from a minimum speed to a maximum under ideal conditions. Yes Ideally I need to drop £400 on a new R9 3900X that will run a bit faster and has 12 cores. What a pity it was not out when I bought what was then the best thing since sliced bread.I have actually noted an increase in power consumption as I slowed the fan down. eventually I figured how to get best case airflow so that i could run the fans slower.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 05:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2020, 05:30:12 pmIf you read what I wrote earlier I don't think the AIO may be much better but I have more control over improving cooling with it. i can pun some real fans in that run at minimum speed will knock the socks off these so called "PC fans" and with low power flow more air.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 05:55:40 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 05:33:21 pmThat's some bold claim.EDIT: Just so you understand. Good coolers already have fans with optimized airflow / static pressure ratio to get best performance when combined with particular radiator. The only case when you can get better performance is when you put fan with faster RPM at expense of noise. But most coolers already have fans which run pretty fast and noisy at maximum speed.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 06:04:02 pm
content: Those crap things from Corsair are not fans, these are fans:https://www.onlinecomponents.com/datasheet/4114n2h8pu-50371715/I really do not know why you think the claim of a better fan than a "PC fan" is to be scoffed at. You obviously live in the closed box of PC accessories with big words used to describe the silliest of things. Obviously I would not run that fan at 125W but even at minimum speed it will outperform a peice of crap from Corsair. Why do you think all these bullshitters never publish specs. The only time I saw a spec it was like 30Pa real fans run well over 100Pa.As I already explained that will not understand a radiator will offer more pressure drop that an air cooler. this is because the air is put more into contact with the hot bits and slows down. So less air is pushed through by the same fan negating the effect. Now put a real fan on the radiator and getting enough pressure for good flow will not be a problem.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 07:20:44 pm
content: low noise low rpm doesnt play well with static pressure, good luck with that 24V fan. maybe you are digging into over engineering area (or wrongly engineered) the bundled fan should be adequate, on properly designed brand, it should be optimized and meet its rating W. tell me whose CPU that runs 95W flat like my archaic Pentium D CPU? they must have a problem i guess. to add to the flavor, i removed the bundled radiator fan because i placed the radiator closer to the existing fan that cools something else. no issue so far with temp. although i never run and profile closely for all day long. the CPU will only runs for few minutes to maybe an hour when i want to measure something with the DSO its operating. in case of temp lockdown emergency occur, i have double counter rotating fan that can scream like a vaccum cleaner to put in there...https://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-GFB0912EHG-92x92x50mm-12V-2-1A-cooling-Fan-M2609-QL/182057385481?hash=item2a63773e09:g:WCoAAOSwoBtW6lYE

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 07:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 06:04:02 pmPAPST does not make anything exceptional. Usual fans not even optimized for low noise. Does no stand even close to noise/performance ratio with Corsair default fans.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 07:40:06 pm
content: Can you even compare the corsair fan's to the papst? well you can't for starters because the corsair spec is non existent. To actually work this out properly you need the radiator specs, that is temp in, temp out, waster flow rate, air flow rate and pressure drop at that air flow. To get air through a radiator with the puny corsair fans i will need to double up the fans, which is fine as I can now take two out of the case and put them on the other side of the radiator.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 08:03:27 pm
content: BTW how are you going to control that papst fan? No normal fan controller will be able to deal with such load.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2020, 08:18:21 pm
content: control? well it has a PWM wire like any other fan but I do not know what the PC fan PWM spec is. Not saying i would use that precise fan just showing you how pathetic these highly celebrated bits of junk are that cannot even come with a simple graph. They may do similar 12V versions although these will run quite happily at 12V, I have taken them as low as 5V and they will keep going down to 3V but cannot start at 3V.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 01:52:35 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 19, 2020, 06:04:02 pmLikely yes, since it's minimum possible RPM likely will be larger than Corsair fan maximum. I just wonder why do you think that using higher RPM fan will somehow make things better? It will be simply noisy, that's all. Running this fan even at half speed will make staying in the same room barely bearable.QuoteThey often do publish specs for standalone fans.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 06:49:04 am
content: mmH20 ?Both those fans are the same! the plataue in the middle around 40-50CFM is where they are designed to work, they both do 40-50CFM with pretty much the same pressure 1.5mmH2O or 15Pa

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 11:45:15 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 20, 2020, 06:49:04 amMost (non PC included) fans have static pressure spec in mmH20.QuoteThey are not the same. Larger fan has lower noise while offering similar airflow. Again, is it that hard for you to understand that PC fans are optimized for maximum performance at lowest noise? Because noise is what annoys people. Yeah, you can put 11K RPM fan into computer... when used in server room. BTW it won't give any amazing AIO cooler performance boost since fan is not really a huge bottleneck.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 11:56:17 am
content: I have a custom loop on my main PC, It's pretty wicked with a 9x 120mm fan radiator from Aquacomputer and a eheim 1250 pump.But, for my server, I bought an AIO from china, in march 2017, 120mm cost almost nothing...I paid $49,99 USD including shipping. It's been working 24/7 ever since..I suppose it's all about what you need it for...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 12:01:26 pm
content: Yes I know it's all about noise, yes those 11krpm fans screech the house down, I am very familiar with them. Yes if you have a larger fan going slower you get less noise for the same spec and less power consumption. I know but 10Pa is nothing. don't be fooled by the fact that you can nearly look through a radiator, they will put up quite some pressure drop, so find the pressure you need for the flow you need and draw a line across at the pressure drop, that is your new "0" and you see how much airflow you really get.My current setup has 5 fans, all running low speed, not too much noise but that one little 80mm fan on the CPU heatsink is a little screecher, so I am replacing it with several larger fans on a remote radiator because of the very point you make. I cannot pu 4x140mm fans on my 80mm heatsink, but I can on a radiator.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 12:12:50 pm
content: what actually made my PC quieter was to increase the speed of the rear fan to help move cool air into the CPU fan so that it stopped recirculating air, that alone brought the noise down as it stopped the CPU fan going nuts.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 01:19:28 pm
content: I put the radiator for my custom loop in the room next door, keeps all the fans and noise in there...1080ti gpu is watercooled, and I did have a watercooled PSU for a while, but the internal pump failed (it had water to 3m fluid heat exchanger on the back), I did keep the 1 liter or so of 3m fluid when I troubleshoot the thing...9900K cpu overclocked to 5 ghz on all cores..Years ago, I had 5 harddrives, gpu + cpu + ram watercooled... I discovered it was a pain, and having a low rpm large fan in stead works alot better.Also... blue fans = just because they where cheap... Fans are crazy expensive when you buy 9 of them... lolIt has a built in flow meter, as I can see the water jet in the PET bottle

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 03:25:14 pm
content: Well arrived and fitted. Just takes 20C off the temperature for the same noise. The supplied fans which are actually bequiet fans are better than the corsair garbage I had before but I have put their fans on as pushers and the corsair ones as suckers. I am now up to 3.575GHz which is nothing massive as it normally ran 3.425-3.45GHz without any overvoltaging.Power wise the processor will use between 65 and 80W. Hotter on air cooling pushed it to 80W but changing boinc workloads has affected the power draw on water cooling. Now that I allow some WCG WU's as well as rosetta I see the power rise. rosetta requires more ram than WCG so i suspect the rosetta WU's are not taking advantage of the dual threading as there is not enough cache.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 03:53:12 pm
content: So is water cooling useless?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 25, 2020, 03:53:12 pmAbout as useful as good air cooler. 20oC improvement over small stock cooler which does not even have any heatpipes. What an achievement!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 25, 2020, 03:53:12 pmWell it certainly dissipates heat more easily so yeas it does what it says on the tin. Whether the processor can do anything with those lower temperatures is another matter.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:09:55 pm
content: i am more interested in RAM timing/speed

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 25, 2020, 04:07:43 pmExcept that heat is now being ejected directly out of the case and i do not have up to 80W of heat being blown around the case.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 25, 2020, 04:19:29 pmAnd it would work around the same if you attached case cooler instead of radiator and directed CPU cooler in a way that air exhaust gets blown towards case cooler.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:25:40 pm
content: erm, but like i said I cannot fit a big air cooler due to space and the stock one is circular. Look i know that water cooling is not a magic bullet but it's a cooler, it works!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 25, 2020, 04:25:40 pmIf you have 15+ cm space above CPU, it's completely enough for good air cooler. If there is none, it's a bit strange there was space to fit water cooler in this case.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 04:35:42 pm
content: Look why don't you just go away. I wanted to experiment. I made that fairly clear.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 09:33:33 pm
content: And of course it's worth remembering that I am running the PC at 100% all the time as I run BOINC so everything is taking a pounding so keeping it a bit cooler even at stock speeds is not a bad idea.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 11:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 25, 2020, 04:29:52 pmsometime right on top of CPU there are obstructions maybe a card or another fan protruding, in my case, the DVD drive is directly on top, but there are plenty of space on the other side. water cool heat exchanger on the CPU top is not so big can easily fit in a lesser than 10cm headroom, and as others mentioned, wont stress motherboard too much. 20°C is a significant improvement, between BSOD and stable CPU difference. iirc 30-40°C improvement on my case on otherwise 90°C (BSOD or damaged risk) 95W Pentium D using stock (smaller) fan meant for 65W CPU.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2020, 07:14:21 am
content: And it's -20C at quiet settings, runnig my fans fast on my air cooler did not really do much other than make a lot of noise.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2020, 01:56:49 pm
content: Yes, water coolers are usually much easier to mount. Most air coolers that are decently effective are not just tall, they are also pretty wide, and are often hard to mount on a number of motherboards (that was the main reason I stopped using them), they don't fit due to nearby elements such as RAM, chipset heatsinks, etc. Another point is that they significantly hinder airflow inside the case (unless your case is gigantic), so that additional case fans are a lot less effective.As far as cooling efficiency goes, you can find many, many tests online comparing various solutions. Whereas there certainly are air coolers that come close to good water coolers, and water coolers that are pretty lousy and are worse than good air coolers, I don't really remember any test not showing at least a slight benefit of water coolers for high TDP CPUs.If you're overclocking your CPU, in my humble experience, watercooling is hard to avoid (keeping the above in mind: if you want something that is not a headache to mount/or will ruin your motherboard.) My main workstation has a Core i7-5930K @4.4GHz, and I couldn't get to this figure reliably with air coolers. Of course not saying this isn't possible - just that it's usually much harder to achieve.Now for CPUs with moderate TDP and not overclocked, the story is different, and I would likely go for air cooling. But water cooling still has the above benefits (first paragraph.) My criterion of "moderate TDP" is under 100W.Now don't underestimate the risks associated with water cooling. Leaking does happen, even with well known brands, but Alphacool makes IMO higher quality stuff than average. Check your installation every once in a while, especially the tubing.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2020, 02:21:57 pm
content: I have also found that pump speed is not even a consideration here as changing it has no effect. Which is to be expected as the radiator is more than capable. I just need to change my graphics card or do something to the damn fans on it, they run at 1500rpm even with a cold GPU