Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 10:24:12 am
content: There have been other threads about copper-clad steel or aluminum wire.Big Clive puts one from eBay to the test and it promptly catches fire.Here is the thing though: It is the importer into the EU (or UK) who is responsible for the product meeting safety standards. It is not the job of the Chinese seller. If you buy a single item from China you are responsible for the safety. If you are not sure then better buy only from accredited importers (and pay the premium).It is not like the cable is intrinsically bad. It is perfectly good for other applications but not for putting 5A through it to power a toaster.I suppose an argument could be made that eBay or Amazon should bear responsibility that the products comply with the standards of the destination country but they would simply not do any international sales because it is too costly to get the approval.Do we prefer the freedom to buy dangerous things or do we prefer the safety of having every product we buy controlled by our authorities? Tough call.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 10:31:52 am
content: I prefer a market which isn't flooded with dangerous crap. The average user has no idea that this cable is crap and is liable to start a fire, and if they plug it into their toaster in an apartment block, that could become another crisis like Grenfell was.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 10:39:13 am
content: The copper clad aluminum started decades back with CAT patch cables (solid wires) afaik.I can remember I put the naked CAT wire into the flame testing whether the wire is copper clad AL or copper.With network cables it is not a big problem as those signals are low power and fast (skin effect).

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 12:14:35 pm
content: The connector (EU 2 pole one) is not specified for 5 A, but only for 2.5A at most. So at least under normal conditions there should be no load with more than 2.5 A accepting this type of cable.It is still not good or safe - it may withstand 2.5 A when single, but just a single loop or knot in the cable can be an issue.I also still have some iron core cable - though not intended for mains, but an old "military grade" phone cable.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 12:30:54 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 16, 2023, 10:24:12 amJust as an example, here's a demo of something that CCA cable is perfectly suited for:As you can see, it's being used correctly here. Some crazy people however try and run power through it which is definitely not its intended use, as the comment in the video points out.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 05:06:30 pm
content: I have a k40 laser cutter, the wires for the fan were just twisted together. I binned the fan shortly afterwards as it was very thin wire and I just didn't trust it.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 09:10:01 pm
content: Import restrictions are never a good thing...The problem with this product is that it was ever made in the first place. By virtue of the types of connectors on its ends it is implying that it is designed to be used for the full current which is supported by those styles of connector. The fact it has been manufactured with them, but not with good enough wiring to take that current means its manufacturers should be punished for even making it, never mind where it gets sold.It wouldn't be acceptable to make a device with a micro USB (male end) connector which used this interface to put out tens of volts (imagine the damage it would do if plugged in to a phone's USB port, because it looked and fitted like a 5V phone charger). The USB port has expected pin outs and voltage and current specifications. So it shouldn't be acceptable to use those types of plugs on a cable not rated for the current those plug connectors are expected to deliver.Isn't there some sort of "copyright" on the design of the plug which counts for nothing normally, but can be used against any company manufacturing something with that plug which doesn't meet the electrical expectations that the plug's presence implies the cable meets?This surely isn't a cable that would be "only useful in China" (China surely doesn't go around using the european type plug for low current applications), its a cable where the cable type is inappropriate for anything the plug is appropriate for.Also, shows the advantage of the UK style plug, where a fuse is there right at the socket end.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:48:14 pm
content: For safety always check the fuse rating chart

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 12:03:39 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on October 18, 2023, 09:10:01 pmThat is not how the world works. The EU, the UK or the USA have no authority or capability of enforcing their laws in other countries just as other countries do not have the authority of enforcing their laws in the EU , the UK or the USA.Furthermore, while it might be illegal to sell such a cable to the public in the EU or the UK it is not illegal to manufacture it and sell it abroad.Again, the importer (seller) is responsible for the product they sell meeting safety standards.If Joe Blow buys a cable or other device abroad and imports it then he takes responsibility.Since many people do not have the knowledge or qualification it might make sense for the platforms like ebay or amazon to make sellers guarantee that a product meets EU standards or declare that no such representation is made. A notice such as "We make no representation that this product meets any safety standards" might discourage some buyers.I have bought some crappy crap from China but I assumed it was crappy when I bought it. If you want a product guaranteed to meet local standards then you should buy locally... and pay the price.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 12:18:52 am
content: Quote from: iMo on October 16, 2023, 10:39:13 amUntil this garbage loses contact in connector or you use PoE

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:09:59 am
content: I buy nothing that directly requires mains directly from china.But even when you buy from a bigger importer, there is sometimes dodgy stuff, as with my ZD-915.I sometimes buy stuff requiring an external power supply, but that, including any mains cable, will be scrapped.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:24:48 am
content: If you are the importer, legally you have no one but yourself to blame. Ergo, don't buy anything safety critical from China unless you know what you are doing.I would extend it to "don't use anything safety critical made by commies", because the former Eastern Bloc stuff wasn't much betterBTW, AFAIK manufacturing such stuff is also legal in the EU, and even selling it to consumers - elsewhere.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:36:30 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on October 19, 2023, 10:09:59 amThere is a difference between buying directly from Amazon, in which case they are responsible, or buying from a third party through Amazon's marketplace in which case the seller is responsible.In my opinion Amazon and eBay do not make that clear enough as they should.This guy bought a cheap charger and it wrecked his expensive camera.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 11:08:53 am
content: Quote from: soldar on October 19, 2023, 10:36:30 amI agree.I recently was in a discussion about that in a german forum, and there the majority of the posters put the full blame on the customer if they buy crap on Amazon and they don't realize what implication a long delivery time can have.Someone bought a kind glue that cannot be imported into the EU, and was miffed that the package was intercepted and destroyed by customs. Of course there was not even a hint on the product page, and a lot of recent reviews in german. By now the product page has been taken down though.So how is a layman supposed to know that stuff sold on the german page of the largest online retailer - that has an excellent customer reputation - could be illegal?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 08:14:06 am
content: Quote from: soldar on October 19, 2023, 12:03:39 amThe problem is, there is no way Joe Blow can know whether the product he sees on eBay is safe or not. I would also question whether it's his responsibility, since he isn't importing it. Ebay or Amazon should have to take responsibility and ban users who sell dangerous products.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 09:33:22 am
content: So what exactly is he doing if not importing it?(Maybe you would have a point in case of AliExpress or Amazon and their European warehouses, but not direct from China.)I don't think it's feasible to put this on trade platforms. It's not their product, they have no control over it whatsoever. All they could do is demand paperwork from sellers of certain items in certain categories. Of course, the paperwork will be fake, and good luck going legally after someone outside EU jurisdiction for violating EU regulations. If you ban their account, they will set up a new shell company and sign up for a new one. Good luck having auction sites play detective in faraway countries to figure it out. And who will pay for testing these products to find out that the seller needs banning in the first place?Besides, as long as greed rules the world, trade sites have no motivation whatsoever to spend money and effort on reducing their sales volume. They quietly permit a lot of unethical shit already, and they will continue.Education and Darwin are about the only effective solutions. Don't buy dangerous shit from places with zero ethics, simple as that.(In related news, damn it, reading such posts reminds he of how fucking relieved I am that Brexit went through)

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 10:53:12 am
content: A guy purchased a large quantity of brass screws. I pointed out these were attracted to a magnetic screwdriver? He stated brass is magnetic, which is why it is used in compasses. So off he went to the boat yard and fitted these 'brassic' screws to his beloved day boat. A year later, and after drilling out each rusted screw head, he admitted only Chinese brass is magnetic.Other examples of metal plated turds: Chinese stainless steel and Chinese solid nickel battery links.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 03:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: magic on October 20, 2023, 09:33:22 amIt isn't as though the buyer is going to China, and bringing the item into the country with him. The seller is exporting it to him.QuoteThere is no way for the buyer to know and it's impossible to educate everyone about what's safe and what isn't. This is why there are product safety standards.Expecting the platform to take responsibility is the only sensible option. I doubt they would get away with allowing listings for guns and stealth knives to countries where they're prohibited. Why should dangerous electrical items be any different? Heck, I've heard stories about eBay de-listing items because they're deemed to be offensive. I would rather they spent the time on things which can kill people: no one ever died from hurt feelings.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 05:31:56 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 16, 2023, 10:24:12 amI think there is a misunderstanding there. Buying a single item for end use doesn't make you an "importer" in the context of EU regulation. You only become an importer by "placing it on the EU market".[If you are actually interested in the details, look at the "Blue Guide". It does not make for light reading:https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:52022XC0629(04)]So it is technically the job of the Chinese seller (and technically for some product categories they are actually obligated to have a representative in the EU). This does at least put it into the purview of market surveillance, so if a product is found to be dangerous and the seller does not cooperate, they can at least order platforms like Amazon or eBay to remove the listing.Clearly everyone (including the European Commission) knows that this is not a particularly effective solution in practice.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 06:58:29 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 19, 2023, 10:36:30 amNot a charger but PSU that replaces battery. Also it wasn't that cheap, £40 ($49) for low power PSU is not cheap.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 08:33:38 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 20, 2023, 03:31:12 pmYou won't find guns on AliExpress because I'm sure their sales are highly controlled in China as well.But funny that you mention that, because I heard you can actually buy some restricted gun parts and accessories disguised as everyday items on AE. I suppose there is some whack-a-mole going on with those sellers, but that stuff exists.Truth is, you have no jurisdiction over the sellers and the platform will only make half-assed attempts to look like they are trying something so you can't say that they aren't. And they also wouldn't care at all if they didn't have business presence locally. Try going after some knife seller who is not using an international platform.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:30:43 am
content: Thing is the likes of ebay, Amazon etc. have got the money to pay the lawyers to avoid the blame for allowing products like this to sold via thier systems. It's how the gig economy works to a certain extent.Going back to BC, I like his videos and some are rather informative but at the same time he has a following that are expecting things to melt etc it's part of his routine much like ElctroBoom shocking himself. So Clive is going to look for the dangerous stuff, partly to inform but also to give his viewers what they want.I am often worried by the stuff being sold in the really cheap shops. Makes me wonder how much is fake copies of brands or just dangerous stuff.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 10:16:32 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 20, 2023, 03:31:12 pmOne thing does not preclude the other. The seller is exporting and should abide by his country's laws and the buyer is importing and should abide by his country's laws.In terms of a private person importing for his private use it does not matter at all whether he has it shipped or whether he brings it with him. I have bought a lot of things in China which I have brought back with me and I have bought many things which I have had shipped. In the end I am responsible.In the end the buyer has to take responsibility for his acts. The State does not have the means to protect us from ourselves nor should they. If every little import had to be inspected and tested then that would be the end of this type of small scale purchases.Note that the State does not have the means to inspect even all of large shipments so they do random inspections and catch only a few non-compliant products. Many get past.Having 100% inspected is just not feasible and inspecting 100% of small packages and every suitcase that people bring into a country is just absolutely impossible and attempting anything resembling that would bring a country to a halt. Maybe North Korea could try something like that.A person has to understand that if he buys anything from shady sellers he is taking the risk himself. If he is not qualified to judge he should buy only from very safe sources. The same when investing money, etc. I do not want a State that micromanages my life.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 12:06:16 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2023, 10:16:32 amThe seller has the opportunity to inspect the goods and should know the law in the country they're exporting to.There is a big difference between going to China, buying an item and bringing it home with you vs ordering online. In a real market, you get to see the item and inspect it before purchasing it, which you can't do remotely and the number of people who travel to China to buy things is vastly smaller than those who order them onlineQuoteIf you're going to make that argument then why not just abolish all health and safety laws? It's a straw man. The seller should take the lion's share of the responsibility.QuoteHow does the buyer know the seller is shady?It's not practical to inspect everything, but that doesn't mean nothing can be done to tackle the problem. Trading standards should clamp down on the likes of eBay who list dangerous products. All they need to do is buy a few dodgy products from eBay, report the sellers and take legal action against eBay, if they don't do anything about it.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 01:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2023, 12:06:16 pmLMAO, why would anyone study the laws of some remote shithole that others are ordering his products from?Isn't your own shithole enough of a pain in the ass to deal with?Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2023, 12:06:16 pmQuote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2023, 12:06:16 pmMaybe that's how you know it.You haven't inspected it. You know no one else has. You are ordering form a 3rd world hellhole demoralized by decades of communism.Caveat emptor, anyone?Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2023, 12:06:16 pmEbay isn't doing nothing. I'm sure selling illegal products is against their ToS. If you report products lacking the China Export mark or if you have proof that the mark is fraudulent, I'm sure they will be delisted.And then re-added tomorrow by the same guy. What exactly is supposed to be done about it?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 01:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2023, 12:06:16 pmThat is not how the real world works. If you are buying in China you are doing the transaction under Chinese laws and legal system. The seller is only bound by those and nothing else.And the same with the other way around. A seller in Europe has no obligation to know the law of the country he is exporting to. Someone buys from him and it is the buyer's responsibility to comply with the laws of the country he is taking it to.Imagine a European seller who ships a movie, work of literature, wine or food, etc to a country where the item is prohibited. Suppose a court in Booniestan declares the European seller to have broken their laws and imposes a fine. No European country would submit to that and with good reason. It would make trade impossible. And I cannot help but detect a a tone of ethno-superiority in those who say other countries should submit to our rules, presumably because our rules are better, when we would never consider submitting to their rules.The seller is required to comply with the laws of his own jurisdiction and the importer from another country is required to comply with the laws and regulations of their own jurisdiction. That is the way it is and that is the way it should be. Anything else is just unworkable.And, from a legal standpoint it does not matter if I bring something with me or if I have it shipped to me. One way or another I am the one who caused the forbidden stuff to move into the forbidden jurisdiction.A French cheese merchant, a Spanish wine merchant, A Belgian beer seller, etc. only need to comply with the laws of their jurisdiction and they need not know nor care that their product is not legal in some other place.Buyer buys a product abroad and and when the product gets to customs it is confiscated and destroyed before it enters the country. It is all on the buyer and nothing on the seller.If there is misrepresentation in the sale then the seller's jurisdiction has jurisdiction unless otherwise agreed. But that is a different matter.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:48:36 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2023, 01:42:12 pmI'm sorry, but this is simply wrong. In fact the Blue Guide I linked above points this out explicitly:QuoteOn the other hand:QuoteIf you sell directly to consumers in a third country, it is not at all uncommon for those countries to expect you to follow their regulations. They may even require you to collect VAT for them. Now, if you don't have any representative or assets there, you might choose not to do that and they may never be able to fully enforce that. But they can have your products confiscated by customs and have your listings removed from e-commerce platforms. And if things go pear-shaped, you might want to choose your future holiday locations around extradition treaties.And the real problem is not people deliberately buying from shady third-country sellers. The problem is those sellers offering their dangerous products on legitimate marketplaces next to legitimate products, or through their own, seemingly legitimate, localised web shops. It is often not clear at first (or even second) sight where those products come from. If they ship through a local fulfilment service, you may never notice. And even if you can eventually spot the difference, can your elderly relatives?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 04:00:34 pm
content: I'd argue that the larger part of the problem is that the majority of the people buying this crap have zero knowledge of electrical standards, safety etc, and just operate on the premise "cheaper is better", and assume that anything sold via a "reputable" platform like eBay or Amazon must be safe. Unless you educate these people, any other action you take will be doomed to failure.

author: MLi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 05:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2023, 12:06:16 pmYou're acting like that isn't the default opinion on this forum.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 05:48:36 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 21, 2023, 04:00:34 pmAgreed 100%Sadly the majority of people includes project managers, product/brand directors, purchasing executives, senior executives and the wunder kinders in accounts. Now go design stuff.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 05:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 21, 2023, 02:48:36 pmThe real problem is the one you have any degree of control over, and that happens to be your local citizens. So you can stop them from buying garbage by inspecting their incoming post, you can order test samples of items offered to them and attempt to restrict access to unsuitable offers from your territory, and you can punish those bypassing your regulations.Quote from: switchabl on October 21, 2023, 02:48:36 pmAnd which country would require foreign vendors to do its tax collection?Even the EUSSR isn't so full of shit, and only offers it as an option, and only under a threat of making the customers pay unreasonable processing fees, not the sellers themselves.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 06:07:09 pm
content: QuoteThe uk post brexit for one

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 08:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 21, 2023, 06:07:09 pmUm, no. That's not right. The UK can require corporations which work in the UK to collect taxes from UK buyers. It absolutely cannot require foreign vendors to do anything at all. The foreign vendor is not collecting tax for the UK. Amazon, operating in the UK, is collecting tax for the UK from buyers in the UK. The foreign vendor has nothing to do with these taxes.The UK does it just like other countries do it. It's not like they've invented anything.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:15:55 pm
content: You keep making these bold, easily refuted statements.https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-overseas-goods-sold-directly-to-customers-in-the-ukQuote(And yes, the VAT registration form has a box you can check specifically if you are not based in the UK).I'm not saying that this is a particularly brilliant arrangement. And if you are a small business in China you might just get away with ignoring it and maybe sell under a new alias in case you get blacklisted or something. A reputable company (whether EU or China) that cares about its UK customer base may not want to risk that...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:42:40 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 16, 2023, 10:24:12 amThose cables are intrinsically bad. The steel can only tolerate a limited amount of flexing, then it fractures, arcs, and bad things happen. I've encountered them before, not so much as a fire hazard, but as an unreliable piece of junk. Perhaps copper coated steel has applications in fixed wiring setups, but as a flex its useless.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:44:38 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2023, 08:18:52 pmSince a few months ago, if you buy anything on AliExpress from the UK they add UK VAT to the price, and state this is an agreement they have with the UK government.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 10:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2023, 09:44:38 pmAliexpress is a doing business in the UK and the UK government requires them to collect taxes from UK buyers. If a UK buyer is buying a widget through aliexpress (or ebay or amazon, etc) from a seller in China, the seller collects no tax and does not care about the tax. He can be selling to twenty different countries through the platform and it is the platform who is collecting the tax from the buyer and passes it to the buyer's government. There is no collection of taxes in origin, it is all in destination. Aliexpress in the UK collects tax money from the buyer in the UK and passes it on to the british Government. The tax is never collected in China, it is not paid by the seller. It is paid by the buyer in the UK to the Government of the UK. The seller who sells through Aliexpress neither knows nor cares about this. He is selling to twenty different countries and does not care what the buyers need to pay. That is what the platform does.In the USA each state has a different tax and the platforms collect from the buyer and pay the State. The seller in China is not concerned with this in the least. He gets exactly the same price and later the platform adds the tax and charges the buyer.Anyone who thinks all those small sellers in China are collecting taxes for hundreds of different jurisdictions all over the world is very misinformed. Those small sellers do not even have the capacity to do that. It would be crazy to think they are submitting to each American state and to each country in the world collected taxes which may amount to cents only. That is precisely what the platforms do.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 11:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2023, 10:57:08 pmAliExpress has no operations in the UK. If I want to buy from a shop on AliExpress I am buying from the Chinese AliExpress company in China, and they handle charging me, and often delivery, on behalf of the small local traders they represent.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 07:14:06 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2023, 11:04:23 pmAliexpress has offices and bank accounts in UK and can be sued in the UK. Same as eBay and Amazon.QuoteAnd I do not know if they have brick and mortar stores in UK which they do in EUland.At any rate, at the volumes those platforms operate it becomes necessary for them to use their own containers, sorting, delivery, etc. so it is unavoidable for them to operate in the destination country if there is any significant volume.When I have bought anything from China through those big platforms I do not remember ever having received the item posted from China. They have operations where they ship entire containers and then mail from there because it is much cheaper, faster and efficient that way.As far as the physical package is concerned my government doesn't even know it originates in China.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 10:22:15 am
content: The way I understand it, in very general terms, is as follows.The laws on VAT or sales tax burden the buyer always. The taxable subject is the buyer.The laws place a duty on some sellers subject to the jurisdiction of those laws to collect the taxes and pass them on to the government. They cannot and do not place such obligation on sellers outside their jurisdiction.It is false that a buyer would pay the tax, and send the money, to a foreign seller, out of jurisdiction, who would then turn around and send it back to the buyer's jurisdiction. It makes no sense. The money would be converted to a foreign currency and then back again. The seller could just not send it back. The scheme makes no sense in any sense.Imported goods are supposed to pay duties and taxes at the moment of import, when they become subject to the jurisdiction of the law.Governments have customs and border controls just for this purpose.But governments realize it is foolhardy to try to inspect and collect millions of small, low value, packages and they have twisted the arms of the big platforms to collect the taxes for them. Which makes sense.But if I buy outside of these big platforms from some outfit in China there is no way they would collect any VAT or sales tax and remit it to any western government. They simply cannot do it. I, as the buyer, am responsible for paying VAT and duty when the goods arrive in my jurisdiction. And that is the way it was before the platforms had any agreement to collect taxes. No European tax money went to China, ever.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 02:51:22 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 22, 2023, 10:22:15 amBut that *is* the way it is now supposed to work, and *does* work with various sellers.I picked something random on Banggood.com:Note the notice: "Inclusive of VAT", the shipping location from China, and the expected delivery date, which matches delivery directly from china.The VAT notice has a help link:https://www.banggood.com/index.php?com=help&t=questionCategory&artid=1901&catid=187And this page describes exactly what@soldarexplains. I was not able to find a german address of Banggood, so i am resonably sure that they do not have one.By the way, that process of getting foreign companies to collect VAT on behalf of the customer was started way before Brexit. I would think that the UK only does that because it's an old EU ruling that was not yet abolished.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 03:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on October 22, 2023, 02:51:22 pmI am sure I have read that is exactly what the EU have done, it was a planned thing to happen at about the same time as the UK plan. This way the tax offices' get more money and dont have to rely on import paperwork to be honest on the values.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 03:47:34 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on October 22, 2023, 02:51:22 pmThe fact that it appears to the customer that the tax money is being sent to China and back does not mean that is what is actually happening.Those pages you link to do not support your point in any way, shape or form.We would have to see the actual details of an actual transaction. In any case. I found Banggood has a representative office in Cyprus. So they do have a presence in the EU. And they probably have much more than that as far as shipping, etc.I am now retired but have spent most of my professional life in purchasing and these things can get quite convoluted. To give you an example, We sold in Spain, to the national phone company, products of an American company, made in China, delivered mostly in China (to be included in a pack), other times in Spain, and we paid to the American company in a bank in Singapore. I was in the middle of these contracts and negotiations and even for me it was complicated and we had tax consultants and accountants involved.The notion that tax money would leave the country and return is just, to me, completely preposterous. I have not seen anything halfway convincing so far. Others can believe otherwise.I think I am done with this issue.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 04:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on October 22, 2023, 03:36:56 pmThere was a huge increase in cooperation between a large pool of governments a few years ago over taxation, both company and personal. Governments that wouldn't trust each other over reports of today's weather seem to now be trusting each other to inform each other about the residency of people and the activities of companies.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 04:45:36 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 22, 2023, 07:14:06 amTry looking at any of the information about The UK registered Aliexpress company at the site you linked,https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06030390. It seems to be just a shell company, with no apparent link to the Chinese Aliexpress, created in 2016 as an offshoot of another apparent shell company called Zaradneski. Its latest accounts show no activity in the past year.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 05:19:54 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 22, 2023, 03:47:34 pmI think this may explain at least part of your confusion. B2B is a whole different world than B2C and the latter has also changed a lot in the past decade or so. In B2B you have a lot of freedom in drafting your contracts. Once you start selling directly to consumers, countries tend to have pretty clear ideas on what you can or can not do. Just to give you an idea of what you can expect:https://www.s-ge.com/en/article/export-knowhow/20193-c3-e-commerce-legal-key-questions?ctAnd yes, I get that they may not be able to enforce that in all cases. But that doesn't mean they think their rules don't apply to you and it doesn't mean that they are not going to try.Quote from: soldar on October 22, 2023, 03:47:34 pmI have already posted a link to a UK government site explaining their VAT rules for cross-border e-commerce.As others have mentioned, there is a EU version. It is called IOSS:https://vat-one-stop-shop.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-07/vatecommerceexplanatory_notes_28102020_en.pdfIt's a bit different from the UK one in that it is not mandatory (but encouraged) outside of the big platforms. You may need an intermediary in the EU if your country doesn't have an agreement with the EU. And if you don't use it, the buyer still pays VAT on delivery. The UK approach seems to be "we trust you to do this" which still seems very weird to me. They may not have been prepared/have the resources to create a full replacement for the planned EU system post-Brexit.