Advice on Starting Independent PCB Repair - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 07:28:09 pm
content: Hey y'all! I am reaching out for some advice on taking on PCB repair as a private entity. Currently, I work as Lab Instrumentation Engineer for a biotech company. I've been doing that for the past 5 years. To give a bit of background, last year I started a YouTube channel documenting my repair endeavors (both personal and work-related). I only meant for it to be a videoblog to catalog my repair experiences. Never thought it would bring business opportunity. But the work-related repairs (i.e. on lab equipment PCBs) has garnered attention from others in my industry. Most lab equipment services only swap PCBs, not repair them. And the PCBs are generally very expensive. So to have someone who can repair them is a highly valuable skill. It has saved my company significant amounts of money over the years.But anyway, I am looking for advice on how to approach this. I am having trouble finding information on hourly rates. I charged $150/hr for my first job. The customer was pleased with that. I think that is a good rate, but I was hoping for some input from those with more experience doing this. Is that too much or too little? Do you charge a fixed rate or by the hour? I was thinking of doing a fixed hourly rate. For example, quote the hours for a job ahead of time. If it takes me longer, then that is on me to eat that cost.I was thinking of offering a warranty on the repair. Like 6 months. If the device has a failure related to that repair within that timeframe, I will repair it for no cost. But it will be after I investigate the issue for other potential causes. Do you offer warranties on your repairs? Why or why not?I want to make my services affordable but paid a rate that reflects the service provided. I want people to repair these boards, not swap them out entirely. But I would greatly appreciate anyone's feedback!Thanks!P.S: PLEASE do not turn this into a discussion about 'no fix, no fee'. There is already an annoying thread going on in the 'Repair' forum about that topic. I'm really looking for advice from individuals who do this for a living full-time ideally.-Frank

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 09:32:13 pm
content: Usually warranty on repairs is given as 60-90 days, not 6 months. If you do offer 6 months, just be sure to be super specific that it only covers the failure of the repair itself, and not the machine or other aspects. To start I would not add risk like this unless client is asking for an extended warranty. You can always decide for yourself to cover something that has failed after 6 months as a favor, or if its clearly your fault, even if you didn't say so up front.Looks like the ozark biomedical you mention in the video offers 30 day warranty on PCBs and parts for example.I don't see a problem with 150/hr for devices this complex.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 12:12:21 am
content: Frank,After 40 years of business:It is easier to make a policy exception than live with a policy that can drive you out of business.i.e. warranties. Easier and makes you look better when you decide to service a comeback out of warranty.You can, and should, adjust your business model as you learn. This includes rates.The market will tell you if you need to adjust your rates. If you get overwhelmed, raise your rates until you get a 10% decline rate.Qualify your customers. If your rates are too low you will not attract those who understand good work.Do not accept customers who tell you what your rates "should be". Especially if they return after checking around. They will do what they can to get their pound of flesh from you.Listen carefully to how the prospective customer talks about previous repair services. If they only ran into poor results, it sez something about them.Measure your success not by "sales"; but by number of true customers (repeats).And be aware that people talk. I have no idea how pilots in particular check me out, but that community seems to reps ct my service.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 12:35:28 am
content: Dewey and thm_w: thank you so much for your insight. You both have excellent points to consider! I really appreciate it.EDIT: also I might have sounded like I was being a bit hard on Ozark Biomedical for that price on the latches. But seriously, that is a 1 hr job tops. Disassemble the latch, replace the microswitch, reassemble. The microswitch is a couple dollars. The OEM states you can't repair these latches. And they $1k new. So this is just taking advantage of the customer IMO because the OEM states they can't be fixed (which is a lie). The PCB repair/exchange price might be more reasonable, but I also think it is a bit overpriced. There are giving you a board they repaired before, and taking your replacement board to work on it at their leisure so that they have more lined up in stock. Or at least that is what I think they're doing.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 01:52:58 am
content: Quote-warranty is a tough one I've learned. I used to repair a lot of pro audio equipment. Some years over 400 repairs. Some people are sane and normal. But there are people with other ideas who will claim warranty for each and every problem it develops after you worked on their equipment.-Document everything about the equipment and deliver that to your customer. Cosmetic condition, supplied cables,... Because the not so sane people will claim they delivered whichever usually expensive option and now it needs replacement at your cost. Or that scratch wasn't there... bla bla, I will not pay your invoice. (But I will return next time because you are actually good at what you do)-Document everything if you notice any damage has been done by someone else in an attempt to repair the equipment.-Invoices: again the same thing. Normal people pay your invoice within days. But on some you will have to spend a lot of time in order to get your invoices paid. And if you refuse to take on new repairs, they start to pay all open invoices a few days before they reappear. The remedy for those is overcharging for the time you will have spend on getting your money. Payment at take out is an other option. They will hate you for that. I must have been doing my job pretty well because they returned anyhow.The nutters:Sir, the microphone you repaired makes a strange clicking sound at maximum gain (over 60 dB). It never did that and I demand a new one and right now because I have work to do with this microphone. (Those extremely sensitive microphones are pretty expensive and blowing onto the membrane is enough to kill them) Eventually he brought it back and after some tests nothing could be found but at his location it made a clicking sound. After some more questions it became apparent that the clicking noise had a period of one second. What a coincidence. Is it by any chance the sound of a mechanical clock? It turned out to be his own watch... He never apologized for the screaming, shouting. Because well why would you?The funny ones: I was once asked to repair an amplifier from an expensive disco hair saloon in Paris. Complaint: it shuts down and the red light are on (over temperature in this case). The amplifier was completely filled with hair shavings and hair varnish front to back. I called them and after introducing the problem I said I refused to work on it unless they would shave it first. But they didn't get the joke. I can hear the person on the phone having a very confusing conversation about my question with two other people. After a few minutes they decided they wouldn't know how to shave an amplifier.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 01:04:00 pm
content: Great advice here thanks! And thank you for the laughs!Quote from: temperance on July 05, 2024, 01:52:58 am

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 01:37:18 pm
content: Quote from: fmashockie on July 04, 2024, 07:28:09 pmDachshund work, no time related, one unit (board, block) $250.When you overloading, you can increase the tax (price per unit).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 03:10:37 pm
content: Also: don't comment on shoddy repair jobs done by others. Decades ago I brought my TV in for a repair at the local repair shop. When I picked it up the repair guy complained the previous repair was a shoddy job. The guy didn't look happy when I told him he was the only one who had ever repaired the TV

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 03:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 05, 2024, 03:10:37 pmNot right. There is no need to scold, but commenting and taking photos is a must. This won't happen too often because the repairer is usually stupid, but neat.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 09:33:39 pm
content: OP consider your test equipment costs. Does it make sense to have say $x,xxx of test equipment but not factor that into your repair pricing? I will charge a fee for test equipment usage because it's part of the wear and tear and cal/eventual replacement that must happen. Otherwise, you must amortize the costs of your gear wearing out.Another expense to consider, is the fabrication of a simulator/tester for boards. Some control boards I have had to make this to run boards outside/away from the big appliance.It pays for itself in time and hassle, but is a cash outlay. RTD/thermistor/thermocouple simulator in it.I sometimes charge for shop supplies, like a car dealer does. To cover IPA, flux, solder, cleaners solvents etc.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 09:56:28 pm
content: "Most lab equipment services only swap PCBs, not repair them. And the PCBs are generally very expensive"Well done for finding a field where making repairs on other people's electrical equipment can be economically viable, well though out indeed. For so many things repair can be valuable to do for yourself when you need it, but the cost of time and effort versus the cost for replacement devices makes it very hard to provide a service people will want to use at a price you can make a living from. Your main difficulty then, will be making sure all the owners of expensive lab equipment in your area know that you are available to fix it if it breaks. The other difficulty might be that many of the companies with that lab equipment already employ people who have the sort of knowledge that they might offer to fix it in their spare time for a bonus?

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 12:44:51 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on July 05, 2024, 09:33:39 pmThanks again for everyone's insight! Floobydust these are all good points I hadn't considered!Quote from: Infraviolet on July 05, 2024, 09:56:28 pmI've been a scientist for most of my adult life. I started out as chemist (got my degree in chemistry). My interest in electronics came later and I slowly switched from being the user of the equipment to the fixer. That's where my interests led me. But everything made for a lab is overpriced. The equipment; the consumables; everything. I have a video on my YT channel repairing a configurable/modular SMPS for an ultracentrifuge. Nothing too special. From the manufacturer of the centrifuge, it costs $7500 brand new. Absurd.And that's thing: most companies do not have an on-site engineer like myself. Unless you are big pharma companies like Merck/GSK/etc. These companies usually rely on the service contracts of the manufacturer of the equipment. And they are expensive. The manufacturers of this equipment make a huge profit from these service contracts. It is as much a business to them as the equipment they sell. But the thing is, even they don't do component level troubleshooting of PCBs. They just swap boards. Which I have no interest in doing. I've provided a huge cost savings to my company over the years by reducing our reliance on the equipment manufacturers. And that's what I'd like to offer to other customers as well. So I really appreciate everyone's input!