Scope recomendations in $15-20K range? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jayk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 06:45:41 am
content: I'm looking for a scope in the $15-20K price range. I'd like at least 1GHz BW, 4+ channels, 12 bits. Tek has a promotion right now with the MSO44-1.5GHz coming in at $14K and the MSO46-1.5GHz at $16.5K, with options at half of list price. I see the R&S MXO4-BNDL (1.5GHz) @ $20.5K. The LeCroy Wavesurfer 4104HD is $13K with a bunch of options. Keysight has some 10-bit models on their used site in this price range (even up to 2.5GHz or higher), although these don't include probes and I'm not sure about the option pricing. I do a lot of embedded and RF work along with some power supplies and precision analog. I played around with the MXO4 a bit at a trade show and the UI seemed a bit laggy though there wasn't an opportunity to make any real measurements - it does seem to have a ton of features, and there are some in-depth reviews on youtube. I haven't used the Tek or Lecroy yet, but I'm seeing if there's a way to get one as a demo. My trusty MSO6034A has been great going on 15 years, but these days the screen is seeming a little small for some reason.Anything else to consider in this range?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:08:22 am
content: SDS6204A @~$10k might be right up your alley, albeit officially 8bit it offers an additional 8bits or ERES/Hires when/if needed. Nice 12" touch display too and fond of mine.There's also a option bundle promo active for these.https://siglentna.com/news-article/permanent-analysis-bundle-on-your-new-oscilloscope/

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:11:59 am
content: PSU, analog work and embedded is done well with scope with less BW. It will be less noisy.RF is done best with RF tools like SA.Maybe you would be better served with that combination?More detail would be needed.Siglent has new SDS3000xHD that was just released for fraction of that budget and it leaves enough money to buy good SA...That is 1GHz scope and a SA in your budget...Or 200-500MHz scope and even better SA...Also include probes (active) in the equation if you need them..

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:20:26 am
content: Something to consider is if you want to be using the scope as a daily driver or as a high performance beast that can do any task thrown at it.A lot of the high end feature packed scopes come at a price of speed. I also have a MSO6034A and it is still my daily driver scope. The Agilent MSO9204H is rarely used because it is not as quick and intuitive to use and most of the time i don't need the extra performance. It is big, it is loud, it eats lots of power, it takes longer to boot, lots of menus are on touchscreen only...etc. So i tend to power it on only when i have a job that needs the GHz bandwidth or high resolution, or decoding some weird high speed bus that nothing else will decode.So i found out it is sensible to have a simple, fast and reliable daily driver scope for all the simple tasks of "is this clock 25MHz?" or "is my LDO oscillating" then keep a separate big boy scope for when you need to dig deep down into some serious high speed timing issues.Also keep in mind that in order to make use of the GHz levels of bandwidth you also need active probes. Yes you can buy 500MHz passive probes or even 1GHz probes. However all of these passive probes have too much capacitive loading to be useful in real life circuits above about 200MHz. Active probes solve this problem, however they can be very expensive and tend to be specific to a scope manufacturer, or even only usable only on a subset of scopes from a given manufacturer. So it is a good idea to look into what probing solutions are available for your next scope.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:48:16 am
content: Yeah, once you hit like a $5-8k scope price it's more about what scope features do you actually require to do your job.Spending more just to get a quality/high-performance instrument is usually not the best use of the money. (not saying you are doing this, just in general)As stated above, really expensive scopes can be harder to use or slower. And quality doesn't change that much.Sometimes a cleaner/simpler UI is nicer to use.

author: metebalci
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:53:26 am
content: I bought a scope from Keysight used store a few years ago and the bandwidth option had a reasonable discount if I remember well. If you like a model there, it is a good idea to ask for a quote with the options you want. I purchased passive and digital probes from other places, considering the price of the scope these are not expensive. If you will need active probes, that is going to be costly.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 02:19:46 pm
content: Hello,perhaps a 3 GHz Siglent SDS7304A H12?Batronix has it with a free SDS7000A OptionsbundleBest Regardsegonotto

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 02:41:02 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 29, 2024, 07:11:59 amTrue, but if you don't have the budget for both a scope and a spec an, then choosing a scope with a really good FFT implementation (like the MXO4) becomes important.In addition, the ability to look at a signal in both the time and frequency domains is extremely helpful in many different applications: especially if you can set the spectrum parameters (center, span, etc.) independent of the time-domain settings.

author: Domitronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 02:47:54 pm
content: I can tell you that the Tek MSO46 has a really slow and laggy user Interface. 6 channels are really nice to have but the UI is almost a dealbraker in my opinion.Just now the MSO46B was released where Tek claims that speed of the UI has doubled. But i still wouldn't buy it without trying it at first.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 03:02:14 pm
content: I'm highly suspicious of people who start with a price, instead of a performance requirement. Stating a need, and asking if you can get that for a certain budget makes sense, but a mere price point is not a serious request.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 03:18:15 pm
content: If I was planning to spend that much, then I would try to contact some representatives of the manufacturers to get some hands on experience.Quote from: jayk on February 29, 2024, 06:45:41 amWhat about adding an external monitor to your MSO6034A. Does it have a video output?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 03:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 29, 2024, 03:02:14 pmAlso no indication of what it's going to be used for.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 06:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 29, 2024, 03:02:14 pmI've worked in T&M sales and product management for over 25 years and I was a T&M customer before that (so I have experience on both sides of the table). There are lots of customers who start out with a budget (max price) and then try to maximize what they can buy with that budget. Yes, there are also many customers who don't have a defined "upper limit" when it comes to price, but I don't find it strange at all when people ask something like "What's the best scope I can buy for under $25K?"Honestly, if my manager told me I could spend $25K max but I could meet myimmediaterequirements with a $5K scope, I would still try to buy a scope as close to $25K as I could

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on February 29, 2024, 06:35:44 pmOTOH there is seller trust and satisfaction grown when one displays a lower cost instrument can deliver needs with significant savings.This can lead to many further purchases.....

author: Construct
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: jayk on February 29, 2024, 06:45:41 amIf you've been doing well with a 300MHz scope for the past 15 years and your only major issue is screen size, I wouldn't rush to spend $10K+ on a replacement.As others have mentioned, making use of the extra bandwidth a 1GHz scope would provide requires extra equipment. Passive probes, even if indicated up to 500MHz, bring significant capacitive loading.If the goal is to expand into higher frequencies then the budget should consider active and/or Hi-Z probes as well.Alternatively, there are some great value scopes in the 12-bit, 200-300MHz range with big screens that would provide nice quality of life improvements. This would keep your budget free for specialized equipment when the need arises in the future.At the rate oscilloscopes are progressing and prices are falling year over year, I think the optimal strategy right now is to only buy what you need. By the time your needs grow, prices will have dropped even further.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 08:55:59 pm
content: If 1GHz is all you need, you could afford 3 SDS3104X HD scopes. But it might be smarter to buy only one and some nice active probes. If I needed something higher than that, I'd look at the SDS7000A series.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on February 29, 2024, 08:55:59 pmLike I said he could buy SDS3104xHD and a good SA from Siglent, and a probe or two...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:20:03 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 29, 2024, 09:11:00 pmThere's a test not yet done....find the -3dB BW of active probe SAP1000.....now I have the RF sources to do so.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 29, 2024, 03:18:15 pmI absolutely agree with this. For this kind of price, don't just order online, but ask for a loaner you can keep for some days and test with your own signals.I would also consider that the fancy probes like active probes, differential probes, current probes, power rail probes, isolated probes etc are often not interchangeable between brands. So if you are interested in some of the more exotic probes, take that into account. I would say that for 1 GHz bandwidth you should definitely look at active probes or lo-Z resistive divider passive probes likethis. Several brands sell the latter, and unlike active probes these probes do generally work on any brand scope. But the downside is higher DC loading (lower loading at 1 GHz, though).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 11:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on February 29, 2024, 02:41:02 pmIndeed. If you have a PSU for example, you can analyse a waveform piece-by-piece using FFT and find out which part of the waveform is causing excessive emissions. You can't find this using a spectrum analyser.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 08:59:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 29, 2024, 11:38:11 pmBut scope I mentioned, for instance, can do that..I didn't say don't do this with a scope. I said, you can have a scope with good FFT AND a SA for that money and have both...

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 09:39:16 am
content: Quote from: alm on February 29, 2024, 09:28:31 pmAgree - I've done literally hundreds of in-person visits and demonstrations for single-instrument sales opportunities (for two of the biggest T&M companies).Quote from: alm on February 29, 2024, 09:28:31 pmIn my experience, most differential and current probes can be used with any scope (although they would have to be powered in a non-proprietary way). Single-ended active (FET) probes are usually best bought from the same manufacturer as the scope.That said, you usually get what you pay for with probes, so unless you have very modest requirements, you're not really saving money buying "budget" probes to go with a "nice" scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 09:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: jayk on February 29, 2024, 06:45:41 amIn this price range, you really need to get some hands-on experience with a selection of devices. Make sure to get a demo unit for at least a week (not just a visit from a salesperson); this shouldn't be a problem generally speaking. If it is, then just skip. But before doing that, make sure to create a test plan so you can determine piece of equipment truly caters to your needs. Making this testplan will take time & reading datasheets and manuals for the various pieces of equipment but it will be worth the effort as you'll also learn about the differences between the various pieces of equipment. Each manufacturer has their own approach to making oscilloscopes making it a wildly varying landscape.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 11:26:02 pm
content: I think the best comparison reference should be indeed theLeCroy Wavesurfer 4104HD.You should/must drive test this oneand compare all others to this experience.That would still leave space for some probes and MAUI software is... MAUI software.R&S MXO seem above the $$ range. Tek and KS are no go.Siglent 6000A is below what a 15-20k$ user desires. Siglent 7000A is above just because of BW.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2024, 02:05:40 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on March 01, 2024, 11:26:02 pmThere's an MXO4 bundle promotion going on right now (MXO4-BNDL) that's 20,665 USD (either through us or through a distributor). That's about 1/3 off of list price.Package MXO 4 series digital oscilloscope4 channels, Contains serialized product + options: R&S®MXO44 digital oscilloscope 1335.5050K04 consisting of: - R&S®MXO44 digital oscilloscope, 4 channel, 200MHz - R&S®MXO4-B24151.5GHz Bandwidthupgrade - R&S®MXO4-PK1 Application bundle consisting of -Arbitrary Waveform Generator MXO4-B6 -Power AnalysisMXO4-K31 -Frequency&Impedance analysisMXO4-K36 Triggering and decoding for (I2C,SPI,UART/RS-232/-422/-48)MXO4-K510 (CAN,CAN-FD,CAN-XL,LIN) MXO4-K520https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/rs-mxo-4-oscilloscope_63493-1164992.html(hit: "Configure and Quote")https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/mxo4-bndl/oscilloscope-1-5ghz-5gsps/dp/70AK5603https://www.testequity.com/product/20000019-MXO4-BNDL

author: jayk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 07:13:43 pm
content: Paul... does R&S offer similarly discounted MXO4s with lower specs (say 1GHz instead of 1.5GHz)?

author: jayk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 07:42:36 pm
content: I've been comparing the SDS3104X HD and the 4104HD. Screen on the Lecroy is slightly larger, sample rate a bit higher. I see an optional spectrum analyzer upgrade for the Lecroy. Much larger memory on the Siglent. Apparently no web control interface on the Lecroy (just something called MAUI). 2x price difference.I do some work with frequency synthesizers (think TI LMX or similar) and would like to look at the frequency settling time when the part is reconfigured. I saw Shahriar do something like this in his Signal Path review of the Tek MSO6 series. On the SDS3000X can I do a long capture and then look at the spectrum of a short portion as I sweep along the captured waveform?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 08:34:43 pm
content: Quote from: jayk on March 05, 2024, 07:42:36 pmCalling @2N3055 to answer this in detail.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 03:13:43 am
content: Quote from: jayk on March 05, 2024, 07:13:43 pmI don't think we have anything like that at this time, but I'll check with our North American oscilloscope product manager - I'm not personally involved with deciding what we include in bundles / promotions.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 09:44:03 am
content: Quote from: jayk on March 05, 2024, 07:42:36 pmYes, using the Analysis Gate function you can pick an arbitrary max. 4 Mpts long portion of the record for FFT analysis.

author: surgewave
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 03:14:05 pm
content: Hi, Yeah I fully agree with this thought.Also beware of any offers because they easily makes you focus you to the wrong things.Ask to try scopes before buying. When you make an expensive investment its normal to test drive the product.Remember that Tek maybe famous but its not the best often.I would recommend you to check this one:ROHDE & SCHWARZ MXO4-BNDLMSO / MDO Oscilloscope, MXO 4 Series, 4 Channel, 1.5 GHz, 5 GSPS, 400 Mpts,It a real runner!

author: surgewave
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 03:20:58 pm
content: Quote from: Domitronic on February 29, 2024, 02:47:54 pmYep. Fully Agree! TEK touch screen scopes are really laggyOne additional tip: Don't buy TEK for FFT because its FFT not performing.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 11:57:01 pm
content: Something else I might look for is a screen that does not suffer from excessive glare. I have seen some DSOs in the past couple of years that would be unusable under adverse conditions.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 12:48:48 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on March 06, 2024, 11:57:01 pmYou can usually place a matte screen protector in those cases. I do that anyway.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 06:13:54 am
content: Yep i have a matte screen protector made for laptops on my scope and it works well.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 08:15:09 am
content: Having recently compared (as in test-drive loaner units for a month) scopes at the $10K mark at work, mostly lower-bandwidth versions of what you’re considering: the decision should first and foremost be driven by your needs.For example, LeCroy has unbeatable analysis tools, and I quite like their UI. But their waveform update rate is far lower than the others, so they suck for identifying glitches in real-time. In contrast, Keysight and R&S excel at this. Tek is a bit weird: they are not bad at real-time glitch capture — but only in a particular acquisition mode that disables most other features. In a sense the Tek models don’t have any obvious strength (other than offering super-low-capacitance passive probes), but they grew on me, in that I just liked using them. I will add that the physical build quality of the Tek models was the very best in the bunch.I came across a quote somewhere (in a presentation, I think) from a LeCroy manager who said exactly what I concluded: there are two groups of scopes: “analytical” scopes focused on event capture and analysis, and “display” scopes focused on real-time use with high waveform rates. LeCroy is the leader in analytic scopes, Keysight arguably the leader in display scopes, with R&S trying damned hard to dethrone them.(This isn’t surprising, given that LeCroy began not as a scope company, but as a maker of digitizers for nuclear research, where one captures a ton of data of an event and then analyzes it later.)In the end, I ended up going for the MXO4, because I already had a high-end LeCroy I can use for analytic purposes, so I chose to go for a “display” scope, and the MXO4 excels at this, with both full-time 12-bit (which is used for the digital trigger, so the trigger sensitivity is superb) and above all an unparalleled waveform update rate and a great spectrum analyzer. It was a really tough call between the MXO4 and the Keysight 4000G, whose user interface is by a wide margin the most responsive of all the scopes I’ve ever used (other than other Keysights that are equally snappy). The Keysight is only 8-bit, has very small acquisition memory, the web interface and display streaming are mediocre, the user interfacelooksa bit dated, and the display resolution is low by today’s standards, but it’s an absolute joy to use. The Keysight is a mature product and it shows. The MXO4 is really nice in many ways, but it feels a bit unfinished in places. (Including promised or hinted features that still have yet to materialize, like zone triggering and XY mode.) I also hope R&S can hire some experienced software developers from the video editing and game engine development worlds who can help them improve UI responsiveness (which is OK, but not great), because I’m convinced it just needs some optimization.

author: Domitronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 10:53:08 am
content: Quote from: Domitronic on February 29, 2024, 02:47:54 pmThere is now a promo ongoing for MSO Series 4B:https://go2.tek.com/en-4-series-b-ultimate-bundle-promo-em/But i guess the 1GHz variant is still way over the 15-20k budget.

author: Stewart8
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 12:48:34 am
content: I am also looking at upgrading my oscilloscope.I am thinking of buying R&S' MXO4 bundle deal. The MXO4 looks like a great scope and the bundle deal make it almost affordable.My only concern is reliability.Are the new R&S scopes reliable? I don't want to pay a lot of money and have the scope fail just outside of its warranty period and not to be able to afford to have it repaired because its list price is so expensive.I have a Tektronix's TDS 360, which is 26 year old and is still going strong.I would love to hear everyone's thoughts with regards to R&S and other major brands reliability.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 01:21:07 am
content: R&S is a company that’s been around a long time and has a very good reputation. The company that R&S bought to add oscilloscopes and the like to their portfolio, Hameg, has an equally good reputation. I have a 30ish year old Hameg in my basement, actually.The big brand whose longevity I would question is LeCroy. At work, we’ve had three $20k-40k LeCroys fail (out of 4 units of similar generation that I am aware of). The acquisition hardware and host PCs as such are fine, but they used second-rate no-name caps in the power supplies, so they’ve all failed. (LeCroy wanted thousands to replace each PSU, but a few $ of caps is all they need.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 01:36:51 am
content: I second the lack of build quality and poor mechanical engineering on (non-rebranded) Lecroy equipment. I have a Lecroy scope costing around US $30k when new but the overall construction and build quality is just amateurish. The same goes for another piece of Lecroy equipment I used to own.

author: points2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 02:42:49 am
content: Hi,just my comment about this subject titled "Scope recomendations in $15-20K range"1st comment about that kind of stuff : PLEASE be FAIR :1. metrology is a basic part of your process2. metrology is not a basic part of your processI'm a "eternal" "young player" as our dear Dave would say ... and so : asking for advice about a scope (a scope is a basic tool !) in the range of 15-20k range => that's weird !I see 2 options :- "15-20k" is the budget : very narrow (weird !)- the purpose is to do some measurements ? or show off based on the scope screen's displaying ? (weird too...)bottom line :anyone that asks about advice with such a budget :1. he's a jerk : because it has the cash but not the know-how (what to to with it)2. he is... another kind... and I need to understand... what kind of guy you areI'm a "young player", but I manage to go thru the BW / rise time and so on.. because at the end, a scope is a time-domain tool, as simple as that.Sorry about this rough reply

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 03:03:07 am
content: Sometimes products can be supplied with a minor fault (e.g. I've had a Keysight product (not a 'scope) arrive with a wonky fan blade hitting the metal chassis, it really was not worth the effort to return, but I'm sure Keysight would have done so if asked. I've had a couple of products from a couple of top brands that initially had different battery back-up issues, again minor.I've used the MXO 4 for about a year, and not experienced any hardware fault so far, but of course this is just a single datapoint.Firmware releases for the MXO 4 have occurred approximately every 4 months, with the major releases containing useful new functionality as will as the bug-fixes of course, so that's been a very positive experience so far.In summary, hardware/construction of it seems good, although I wish it came with a hard cover by default, since nowadays 'scopes have huge screens. It came with a nice, 1cm-thick piece of protection material in the box, which served as a temporary screen cover for a long while!By the way, when you receive it, initially it might look like the MXO 4 screen is very glossy, but it's actually a thin protective sheet. Took me about a month to notice it was removable!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2024, 03:14:05 am
content: Quote from: points2 on March 24, 2024, 02:42:49 amYeah right.Please tell where you might go to seek wide advice on such a purchase ?Here with 1000's of members with all manner of equipment seems a good place to start narrowing down on possible purchase candidates, don't you think ?