Altium possibly charging for cloud storage space?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Engineer1
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 06:06:28 pm
content: I've just read a Reddit thread where multiple users report being contacted by Altium reps, with a heads up that they will be charging for use of 365 cloud space, at what appears to be thousands of dollars per year (on top of subscription cost) for 10GB space.I don't know if I can post a link here. But checking the Altium subreddit will find it. It's a pretty active topic.Coincidentally I am about to start a small project on Kicad, as maybe it does what I need. I do love Altium though. Particularly the schematic editor.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 03:55:55 pm
content: I don't know of any rule against posting links here. I assume this is the thread you're referring to?https://www.reddit.com/r/Altium/comments/1gn78xx/altium_is_going_to_start_charging_altium365_users/This was mentioned here by another user:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/massive-price-hike-on-a365-coming-in-jan/None of this is really that surprising when you look at their overall pattern of behavior for the last few years...or just read the bio of their "General Manager of Digital Software"...or read any of their investor communications.QuoteThis is the business plan du jour: convince customers that they need your subscription services, get them good and locked in, then start jacking up the price. Yeah, you destroy all of that hard won customer trust, but who cares as long as the line goes up. Maybe you even tank the business, but that's fine too -- just take your big pile of capital gains and your "strategic clarity" to some other unsuspecting company and you can do it all over again!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 04:06:29 pm
content: Corel, now that is a name I have not heard for a long time... Didn't know they still existed.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 06:24:38 pm
content: What is impressive is they say you are using too much, but reportedly unable to give you a breakdown of how much space is in use and by what.Altium have solved the issue for me. They won't take my money to keep my permanent license, hence A365 is off limits. They lose even more money.

author: RnDMonkey
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 02:24:39 am
content: A truly disgusting acceleration of enshittification happening at Altium. Been using it since 2008 and have become something of a guru. Sucks to see it going down the toilet, and quickly.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 09:01:34 pm
content: Its fine to link the reddit thread.There is some discussion in there that the large storage sizes are due to how commits are held, binary sch/pcb files. So you end up with a ton of binary commits which aren't easily compressed. I don't even know if the ASCII format is still available?So then maybe they got their cloud bill which was huge and fought the issue with this instead of going back to ASCII or finding another solution.Quote from: RnDMonkey on November 12, 2024, 02:24:39 amIts attempting to maximize profits, has nothing to do with shitification at all, we already have one forum member who overuses that word, please don't be another.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 10:13:19 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 12, 2024, 09:01:34 pmEven plaintext files like .PrjPcb files are handled in ways that make them less efficient for version control. Parameters, for example, will get rearranged in the file depending on how they were last accessed in the GUI, resulting in a lot of lines changing even if there has been no substantive change to the data. There's lots of other stuff that seems to change for no obvious reason between commits. Although that probably doesn't amount to anywhere near as much raw storage as the binary files do in a typical PCB project repo.I have a vague recollection that PCB version comparison used to be much more useful back before they added git support, I wonder if part of that change lost them the ability to do a proper diff between the binary PCB files? Allowing for proper diffs that can be handled intelligently and atomically in something like an altium PCB file requires a data model and access methods that are designed with that purpose in mind, but, other than for compatibility with git et al, it doesn't have to be represented in plain text. Arguably something custom could allow them to store project data/history more efficiently AND enable more sophisticated change review/comparison tools in the UI, versus using plaintext tools for binary files -- maybe they are doing that as well, I don't know. But in any case, this appears to be a pretty dumb problem on Altium's part.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 10:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 12, 2024, 09:01:34 pmEmphasis mine (and cut some text).I think that is the whole point. Perhaps milking a few very big customers is more lucrative compared to catering to a couple of hundred who may buy or may not buy a new perpetual license every 5 to 10 years. Maybe Altium is also seeing Kicad moving in closer and they decided to try and lock in as many customers into their cloud based solution and milk those instead of trying to fight a battle they can't win.In the end Altium is a tool with a cost and benefit to a company who uses it. If the costs don't make up for the benefit, it is time to look for a different tool which is more suitable.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 10:20:40 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 12, 2024, 09:01:34 pmI had Altium rep at our place asking:Why are you not using our cloud?It's completely upside down. I have a project, which has PCBs and other things in it. Not the other way around. So can I add a doc file to the project? Yes, but rather you wouldn't... Okay then.And now they come with this. I seriously don't understand what these companies think, charging 100x more for things than the industry standard.

author: Niklas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 11:02:01 pm
content: I ignored a phone call from them last week after some not so positive emails the week before and got a new call this morning. They can still not provide any means for the user to check the actual usage of data storage, just partial data is available by downloading all projects locally and check their sizes. Upon asking how they will treat customers that refuse to pay the "Trust me bro" invoice for exceeding 10 GB was that they will not lock out our access to our data. When asking if I can get that in writing, the answer was not really clear and he had to check with his boss...For my workplace it is not really a matter of money, even if a price increase sucks, it is more a matter of trust. Can we do business with them, or should we take our money and go somewhere else? At the moment we are actively looking at alternatives.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 05:03:48 am
content: Quote from: Niklas on November 12, 2024, 11:02:01 pmYou can continue using Altium withsome otherGIT storage (cloud provider, or on premises).Altium are under no incentive to help you with that but it works fine.

author: Niklas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 06:23:20 am
content: Yes, I guess that is an option and we still have more than a year left on the licence. It would be possible for us to archive older projects in another storage space.The issue is more of how things were presented by Altium and how it is perceived by the customer. They were presenting a lot of new add ons and features, then just mentioning some quotas as a side note. The data storage was also played down as "some", read few, customers put "everything" in the cloud and they wanted to address this. The day after this presentation, an email arrived with "you are exceeding the 10 GB and here is what you need to pay". No info then, and still no info after another call and a direct question, about what will happen if we are not paying.It would have been fair of them to say that you could continue to use Altium as you do today, or pay a bit more if you want to use the added features. You would need to pay for Silicon Expert and the other plugins on top of Altium added price anyway.Now it's more like pay, or else...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 02:08:42 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 13, 2024, 05:03:48 amOr even better SVN. I had to justify continual usage of SVN for our repos. I gave up after 25 reasons.Git is terrible with binary files, tries to diff them. Repos cannot be large, 1-3 GB and it falls apart. There are workarounds, but the easiest workaround is just not using git. Altium originally only supported SVN, they went with git to their online storage probably, which likely costing them processing power and HDD.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 02:45:56 pm
content: I use Synology's live backups for that, as it preserves old versions of the files and allows reverting to any date in the past it has data for. This works well for me as the backups occur automatically so I don't have to remember to commit/push. But I'm the only person working on my designs, so maybe this approach won't work as well for cases when multiple people work on the same designs. As a nice side effect, Synology NAS also automatically performs an offsite backup to satisfy 3-2-1 rule and makes sure I don't lose these files if something happens.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 02:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on November 13, 2024, 02:45:56 pmI run my own Git server on my Synology NAS, there is an add on Gitea package which works very well. The whole NAS gets backed up locally and offsite each day, so it's easy to handle. I notice there is an SVN solution too, might give that a try for Altium.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 03:56:10 pm
content: Quote from: jc101 on November 13, 2024, 02:51:15 pmI tried both SVN and git, but I didn't find much use in either of them because it's hard to see changes as AD files are not really a code (which is what SCs are good at), so I decided to stick with live backup instead as it automatically backs up every change in a file so I don't ever need to worry about losing something, and can always go back to any of the past saved files.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 10:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on November 13, 2024, 03:56:10 pmComparisons is the bit Altium handles for you. GIT is just some backend that it can store to.

author: RnDMonkey
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 01:01:31 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 12, 2024, 09:01:34 pm(emphasis mine)I don't know about another member's overuse of the word, but maximizing profits is the core driver of enshittification (as Cory Doctorow coined it). Though admittedly there are several differences from what's going on with Altium's platform, one overarching outcome seems consistent to me: profits at the expense of the user experience.Now maybe you're having a great experience with the Altium platform and think this is an upward trajectory that they should continue. I do not. I think profits are not just being maximized, they are beingprioritizedat the expense of user experience and good will.To put enshittification in Altium terms:Phase 1: value to attract users. Around '07/'08 Altium consolidated its licensing structure and drastically lowered its cost, bringing in a wave of new users and massively increasing adoption. I came in around this time and have since contributed hundreds of hours to community via the official forum, and spent many hundreds of hours learning scripting and contributing to the Altium user script repository. Having a powerful, flexible, and affordable tool led to brand loyalty and adoption.Phase 2: monetization through subscriptions and product tiers. I feel like this needs little explanation, so I'll just put few bullets:Addition of multiple "subscription" tiers that get you different levels of supportGating features behind subscription levels i.e. Multiboard, Constraint Manager, PCB CoDesign, Harness DesignNot clearly communicating which features are or will be tiered (granted, this has improved after feedback)Phase 3: extraction and lock-in tactics. Multiboard was one of the first egregious examples of lock-in and extraction. How could moving multi-board design from Standard to Pro tier after a few years of development and feedback not be viewed cynically? If you were a standard user using multiboard features, suddenly you get that rug pulled out from under you if you upgrade past a certain version without upgrading your subscription. At one point we were told explicitly by Altium management that perpetual license holders would be grandfathered in, but that was not the case and became subject to ad-hoc requests by individual license holders for them to honor their word. Other things:Selling A365 storage as being included with subscription, encouraging adoptionFocusing product development on features that require A365Discontinuing perpetual licenses and subscriptions for them, removing their ability to use A365 unless they convert to term licensesIntroducing cloud storage cost as an additional significant fee, taking away a feature if you don't pay up(presumablybased on hints when you connect to A365 with AD 23.11.1) breaking A365 for you if you don't update to later versionsSo no, I don't think I'm in danger ofoverusing the word. I understand how capitalism works and I understand the need for them to return a profit, but it's feeling like Altium Inc. is moving from a software company that makes a great PCB Design tool that people want to buy and use, to a revenue-generation company that includes products "involved in the development and production of electronics hardware" that people are handcuffed to.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2024, 04:14:39 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 12, 2024, 10:20:40 pmThis is a fundamental problem with all of these integrated cloud services -- particularly for smaller companies, which highlights the disconnect here. If you have a hundred people spending 40hrs a week collaborating on Altium projects, then sure, getting them all onto a unified platform directly tailored to their specific needs makes a lot of sense. You might also do the same for your MCAD team, using some other cloud platform, and where you need to collaborate across teams you can dedicate a couple of people to making sure that information is marshaled from one cloud/team to the other. Smaller companies are a different story -- if your whole team is a dozen people across EDA/MCAD/etc, the relative cost of managing that interface is a lot higher, and it's harder to get the full benefits of a cloud designed for bigger teams. Not to mention the overhead of managing more cloud subscriptions, and the COST of it all, across all departments. I can think of a dozen SaaS/software subscriptions we rely on, it all adds up very quickly.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 10:37:25 pm
content: Quote from: RnDMonkey on November 14, 2024, 01:01:31 amThe quality of the application has not decreased, as much as people love to complain. Altium 25 is not an overall lower quality product than Altium 23, or 21, or 19. So no, it does not match the short form definition of the word:"Enshittification (alternately, crapification and platform decay) is a patternin which online products and services decline in quality."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnshittificationThen there are the 3+ different "definitions" in that article that Doctorow has given which, sure some apply and some don't. But its not a meaningful word if you aren't going to nail down the definition.QuoteWhich is a different argument.If by platform you mean A365, is it on a downward trajectory in terms of features and quality? Not yet. If the 10GB limit is actually implemented then you'd have an argument for it.Quote from: RnDMonkey on November 14, 2024, 01:01:31 amPerpetual licenses are not discontinued.Yes the whole point is pushing existing licenses to use A365 to get that recurring revenue, there is no argument there.No one is defending Altium here.

author: ajawamnet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 06:15:25 pm
content: [ Specified attachment is not available ] [ Specified attachment is not available ]Cloud - Term Licenses. No man. I don't need another "Partner" in my business. I don't want to have to depend on - or have to pay - any other entity to allow me to access my work.See, these software companies "blew their wad" back about the early to mid 2000's... they gave you all you really needed to replace a typewriter, a drafting board, or in our case, a light table with Bishops Graphics tape up.Yea, parametric/3D modeling is cool, but again that was in the mid-late 90's. I know - I was one of Sourworks first customers- still have my 1996 install CD (lost the 95 one). In fact, there's a vid a guy did - and he calls it Sourworks - where he compares Sourworks 1995 to 2012 -Note how he shows that most everything you do in later versions was already there back in 1995.So now we have an industry that sort of obsoleted itself. Now what's it do?Go to SaaS... and insure a recurrent revenue stream by making it more of a "rental" thing. In fact, Autodesk almost had their ass handed to them by Vernor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.) when Judge Jones cited First Sale in reference to licenses.As I've posted many times - from Fenwick (the IP law firm that did the first shrinkwrap EULA) :https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Patent_Licensing.pdf:"Quiet EnjoymentLicensees, having paid for the right to use licensed technology, generally seek to ensure that nothing interferes with the benefits they have received. For example, licensees are concerned with their ability to obtain assistance from the licensor in fixing defects that are discovered in the technology, to have the right to fix the defects themselves if the licensor is unable to do so, to obtain periodic upgrades and other maintenance services from the licensor, to transfer their rights if they sell their business and to continue enjoying the technology even if the licensor becomes bankrupt."So yea... I saw this train wreck a'comin back in the mid 90's. And now it's here.Greed. So lovely. Destroyed this industry. So sad... we had so much hope back in the 70's/80's for all this tech.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 06:56:43 pm
content: QuoteA simple example: he draws a box then makes it 3D by adding depth. In both cases it's the same operation, but the 2012 version is far more 'slick' and informative, so although they are notionally the same, the later version has added value.

author: hwasti
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2024, 01:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 15, 2024, 10:37:25 pmMany people, including me, will STRONGLY disagree with that statement.The user-interface and the software stability took a major dive going from AD17 to AD18.AD18, AD19, AD20 and to a lesser extent AD21 were unusable. The software was too unstable and the user interface was unusable. By AD22 they had solved enough problems in both areas that the overall value of the software was once again comparable to AD17.I have not tried AD25 (really AD24.11). Looking at the release notes, I see no reason to waste my time trying it. There is nothing new there.Every new release has some new, not very well thought out, features and lots of new bugs. Increasingly, the new features like wire bonding support, are targeted to narrower and narrow user bases. But any resulting changes to the user interface or application stability adversely impact all users. I call that a regression.Then there are bugs, bugs and more bugs. New bugs greatly outnumber the new features. Not to mention bugs that were fixed that reappear after a few releases for an encore.Occasionally they add some neat features that they eventually get working reasonably well. But that is getting progressively less frequent.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2024, 11:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: hwasti on November 17, 2024, 01:48:35 pmI didn't try it yet. But by the looks of it, they only added new features to the more expensive version. Not cool. The only change I see is the single layer support.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2024, 12:06:01 am
content: What's the single layer support in Altium 25? I searched but only found stuff that isn't recent.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2024, 12:12:21 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 18, 2024, 12:06:01 amLayer stackup -> delete layer.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2024, 08:42:16 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 18, 2024, 12:12:21 amOh. Is that important or useful? When I've done single layers I just ignore one during layout and don't include the gerber for it.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2024, 09:16:20 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 18, 2024, 08:42:16 amIt is if you want to design single layer boards. You can place vias by accident, or have footprint with PTHs in them.I wanted to try it for IMS boards, and was a bit puzzled why I wasn't able to make a single layer stackup. I don't think IMS is supported as core. It's just puzzling why they wouldn't support this simple thing. Probably out-of-touch software guys in charge.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2024, 10:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 18, 2024, 09:16:20 amIt looks like they tried to add support but it caused too many bugs:https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge-base/altium-designer/define-single-layer-stackupThey did have Jumpers for single layer use, but thats been there for ages. You are right would be nice to have a dedicated single layer mode, since we have stuff like flex PCBs, copper, alu core, etc. as more common now.Quote from: hwasti on November 17, 2024, 01:48:35 pmThats the thing, if you really disagree then why not just stay on AD17 perpetual license? Why did people keep buying support for the newer versions, there is zero reason to if they actually think the old versions are superior.QuoteAD19 was fine as a daily driver, saying its unusable is a stretch. Seems stable for me. AD18 was the 64-bit rewrite, so presumably the major improvements were there, but I never used it. AD24 seems fine so far.I haven't used the other versions enough to comment on them. I'm sure there were some to be avoided.Could it have been much better than it is? Absolutely. So much time wasted on FPGAs and wire bonding and other garbage like you say.

author: ivonenand
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 06:35:37 pm
content: Hi guys,It's been a while since Altium has introduced this 10GB limit. How are you handling this issue? Paid for the "Organizational Security Package" or moved the projects back to local disks?Ivo