EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 12:54:06 am
content: Dave assembles his first uCurrent in the SMD reflow oven.With random running commentary while pick and place assembling.

author: jesuscf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 03:50:05 am
content: Securing the strips of parts tape to a piece of soft wood board with push pins is much easier than using tape. The push pins fit perfectly into the tape's holes.

author: dumle29
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 05:20:40 am
content: Dave, you might want to take a look at this

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 05:37:43 am
content: Or as told by Mike:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 05:39:50 am
content: Quote from: dumle29 on December 28, 2013, 05:20:40 amI know. I don't have a vacuum pump. Will eventually get one.

author: scopeman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 05:50:10 am
content: Nice Job Dave.Now you have me thinking about another project - a DIY SMD reflow oven. As if I need yet another project!SamW3OHM

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 06:16:46 am
content: Quote from: scopeman on December 28, 2013, 05:50:10 amI just got done doing one, works fantastically, I am documenting it herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/another-diy-reflow-controller/

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 09:06:53 am
content: Will there be any review of that Metrahit Ultra?

author: Michael_P
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 10:08:12 am
content: Oh!Dave, could you please recommend or suggest any cheap source of current reference, it would be perfect.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 10:17:22 am
content: http://www.voltagestandard.com/DMMCheck_Plus.htmlSimple low cost one, though might not be to the spec you want.

author: redben
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 11:13:25 am
content: How would you use this oven with smd parts on both sides ?Does the soldering paste hold the components upside down ?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 11:24:54 am
content: You would need an extra stencil to screen on an adhesive to hold the components, allow it to dry then screen on the paste, then place the underside and activate the adhesive to hold the components. Then paste the topside and place and reflow to do all at once. You can see this on some boards where the components are held down by red dots of thermoset adhesive then reflowed.

author: trackman44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 12:59:23 pm
content: Now that, my friends, is uCurrent Gold #1!! Would probably be worth alot.Will

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 02:45:22 pm
content: What's the ticking sound during the oven shots? It seems to be there when the oven is not on, so not the controller turning it on/off.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 02:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: Michael_P on December 28, 2013, 10:08:12 amFor the class required to test the uCurrent, no such thing as really cheap. I'm building a not-so-cheap one now, but still <$100 maybe.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 02:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on December 28, 2013, 02:45:22 pmProbably the oven mechanical timer. It would have to be turned on for the oven to work since the oven mains plug goes into the controller output.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 03:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 28, 2013, 11:24:54 amUnless you have big/heavy parts on both sides, you don't need glue - surface tension will hold parts on during the second reflow.Probably the biggest difference is your stencilling setup needs to be able to support a board with parts on the underside when stencilling the second side, and of course you need to support the board during reflow.

author: trackman44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 05:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on December 28, 2013, 02:51:12 pmYou could hack the oven and remove the timer, if its only purpose is for reflow work, but I wouldn't toast anything edible, that's for sureWill

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 05:44:45 pm
content: Quote from: trackman44 on December 28, 2013, 05:39:12 pmI left the electronic timer on my oven, and use it as a fall-back set to 6 mins to prevent incineration if I forget to check it..

author: hikariuk
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 05:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on December 28, 2013, 02:45:22 pmMy guess would be the sound metal things make when they cool down and contract.

author: ion
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 08:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2013, 05:39:50 amYou could get an aquarium air pump and reverse the valves - I made a decent pickup tool like that.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 01:08:45 am
content: I just scored a VIRTUAL INDUSTRIES V8000 SMD-VAC-GP Vac pen on ebay for $60! Got it in today and I must say it's pretty nice, beats the pants off of placing SMD with tweezers . The model I have is an older model but the company still makes them and they start at around $300! So I think I got a good score, plus ebay has variants of it. I plan on doing a photo tare down to check it out, will have a thread for that soon.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 03:23:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2013, 02:50:12 pmConsidering some of those resistors were in the dollar range, I could imagine costs going up significantly with precision.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 03:36:52 am
content: If anyone's looking to roll your own reflow oven, Kevin Darrah had a couple of nice videos on it.He, like Mike, left the time enabled and also left the internal thermal protection enabled in case the microcontroller goes into a runaway mode. That way the oven will turn off by itself and at least won't go over the maximum safe temperature for the oven. Also he found that he could get a lot better temp control by coating the glass with foil. He also mounted a small fan in the back to circulate the air to help eliminate hot/cold spots but my concern with that would be even with the fan on a standoff, it could start to melt.One thought I had is you could also do it without modifying the oven at all. Just move the electronics into an outlet strip or use a Power Switch Tail that is controlled by your Arduino.The actual setup he had was, Arduino (well AVR board programmed as an Aduino), cheap Walmart oven, Sharp 16A/250VAC solid state relay with heatsink, a start button, K type thermocouple, Maxim thermocouple amplifier, and a standard Hitachi interface 2 line LCD.Video 1 is the teardown and conceptualizing of the design, Video 2 is his finished design and explanation of what he came up with.

author: trackman44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 03:49:56 am
content: Wouldn't it be nice if you could cut some louvers on the top that were attached to a servo controlled by the Arduino? Then you'll have a proper cool-down cycle. That would be awesome.Will

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 05:14:46 am
content: Dave,HP3457A!!! Where did you get that? An ancient meter, but a ripper, and was quite rare. It might have even been the very one I bought at IBM around 1989. It cost a fortune when it was new. After IBM sold us out, it was transferred to Bluegum/Alcatel, then Solectron then maybe auctioned off to the public in Sydney. If I recall correctly, you can set up pass/fail test alarm thresholds without even connecting a PC.I am wondering if it might be better to suspend the boards on a small tight fine wire frame to reduce the thermal mass of any object coming within contact of the board? Something like a cheese slice cutter.Sometimes it is better to make footprints slightly bigger than the recommended footprint if parts are going to be hand soldered so at least you can get a soldering iron in.cheers,Dave

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 08:19:06 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 29, 2013, 05:14:46 amCommand as mud on ebay.

author: dumle29
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 03:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: ion on December 28, 2013, 08:15:56 pmThat's What that video is about

author: Tioleco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 02:04:53 pm
content: Can I use the kit in a small oven with 9 liters of capacity?

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 05:02:12 am
content: Quote from: ion on December 28, 2013, 08:15:56 pmI have no idea why but i found this amazingly amusing.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 28, 2013, 03:22:41 pmif you use heavy parts, could you use lead free on one side, and leaded on the other, reflowing the leadfree first, then leaded after at a lower temperature? or is the temperature difference too hard to get it in the gap?

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:50:32 am
content: I have an interest in the controller that Dave reviewed but the 240V requirement is difficult for me, especially finding an oven.I found this controller on eBay. It uses an SSR to switch the oven's element, is programmable in terms of the temperature ramp-up and down, and otherwise looks like it may do the trick. What do you guys think of this? There are some other controllers that are even cheaper but less programmable.http://www.ebay.com/itm/PID-TEMPERATURE-CONTROLLER-W-30-RAMP-SOAK-SSR-OUTPUT-/110627498979This one is cheaper but doesn't seem to have any ramp and soak timing options:http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Universal-Digital-PID-Temperature-Controller-SSR-Control-output-1-alarm-/110862594914

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 01:59:14 am
content: The link below was posted in page 5 of EEVblog #558 discussion page. This fellow, who seems to know this subject very well, has built his own controller and demonstrates it with an IR oven which he recommends and makes some points concerning why he considers IR to be the correct oven technology to use:http://forum.43oh.com/topic/3980-reflow-oven-booster-pack/It seems this oven is no longer sold by Walmart but I bet another IR oven with a high wattage rating would work as well.Too bad his controller project seems to have not taken off in the past few months as expected. If I couldn't get his controller I still wonder if the controller I linked in and you talked about wouldn't work well with an IR oven. I am thinking it might well. Watch the video, his oven ramps right up. And it's a poorly rated George Foreman oven!

author: hairykiwi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 03:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: JoeN on January 01, 2014, 12:50:32 amOr why not try the OSPID controller fromospid.com?I've detailed most of my reflow experience with it, including hacking it, onthis postat the ospid forum's 'Setpoint Profiles (for Reflow et al)' thread.It did take some experimenting to get a JEDEC compliant profile working:Click on the image to view full res images.I started out and failed, trying to use a cheap hotplate, (way too much thermal mass) before eventually settling on the four bar9 litre Elgento E048, available from Amazon and ASDA at least, in the UK.In the end I also decided against using PID control. PID, as I discovered is a science, not a black art. Determining PID settings by the wild-assed-guess (WAG) method is only fun for about an hour. From my limited experience, a PID controller using one P, I and D setting, is great for a steady state system such as a coffee machine or incubator, but ideally a controller needs a range of PID tuning parameters over the entire temperature range of the connected oven, to ensure it can actually achieve the rates required by a reflow profile.So, inspired by mikeselectricstuff's simple yet elegant manually controlled and timed 'power ON' cycles to achieve a reflow profile, (detailed in one of the videos linked to earlier in this thread) my solution was to hack up another couple of profiles to use with the ospid controller.Firmware is here:https://github.com/hairykiwi/osPID-Firmware.git,and software for the monitor here:https://github.com/hairykiwi/osPID-Front-End.gitThe new profiles simply automate the process of setting a power setting for a), a given period, or b) until the required temperature is attained. The only prerequisite is that you determine, by experiment, the maximum rate of change of temperature achievable by the oven at each phase required by the reflow profile. After a short period of experimenting, you're then in a good position to wild-ass-estimate the power output required to achieve a required rate as each phase; much easier than WAGing PID settings - and as an added benefit a much a smoother temperature profile can be achieved more easily.As for evidence of sucessful application, the last profile in the collection above was recorded during (PB-free) reflow soldering the prototype open sourceOTM-02watch module:Click on the image to view more full res images.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 02:48:30 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on December 29, 2013, 03:36:52 amNeat. I just finished making my own reflow oven last week and used exactly the same cheapo oven from Walmart as a starting point (under $20). I added a third heating element and lined the inside with reflect-a-gold. Using SSRs for driving the heaters, and while I started out designing my controller circuitry from scratch - shortly after I got started on it an acquaintance on Kickstarter launched a project that included a Leonardo-based controller system along with enclosure etc. So I used that hardware for the controller, but ended up writing my own firmware to get more flexibility in how it processes the profiles. Doesn't use PID; it uses a slowly cycling heater pattern for each phase of reflow, tuned to measurements of how my oven responds.The reflow controller hardware from Kickstarter (I think these kits are now on Amazon):http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1471240030/controleo-an-arduino-compatible-controllerThe LCD backlight isn't really that bright - my phone camera just seemed to oversaturate.

author: hairykiwi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 12:03:10 pm
content: Nice one MacAttak. What are the part numbers did you used for the reflective foil and heater element please?The larger display on the ControLeo is quite a nice feature also, compared to the smaller one on the 'industry standard sized' ospid.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 01:59:50 am
content: Quote from: MacAttak on January 03, 2014, 02:48:30 amHey, thanks for this, I didn't know it existed. It turns out that I have all the parts required (with some substitutions for voltage regulators and the transistor drivers) to make this thing on a solderboard already with the exception of the MAX31855 and MCP2300 chips. I'm going to build up one of these in the next week and try out their software.Can anyone identify why they even use an MCP2300? All it is doing is GPIOs and the Atmel chip has a lot of free GPIOs available. Why use it?https://raw.github.com/engineertype/ControLeo/master/ControLeo-Schematic.pngHey, check this out. One of the guys who created this project is selling a few of his MAX31855s on eBay. He bought 250 of them at Mouser at $4.16 each and is selling off the extras at a small profit, but still under the Mouser qty 1 price:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maxim-MAX31855-Thermocouple-to-digital-converter-/301056322310He's not selling MCP2300s yet.In fact, no one is selling these on eBay.But the part is very inexpensive ($1.22) at Digikey.EDIT: Parts Ordered!EDIT: Actually the part number is MCP23008 and there are people selling it on eBay, but it's only $1 each if you buy 10 at Digikey so that is where I bought it.http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mcp23008

author: Solver
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:46:17 pm
content: There seems to be some reasonably priced manual smd pick and place aids available from china.These did catch my eye when I was looking for something else:smd reel holder/feederhttp://www.wtotoy.com/1-set-5-way-smt-smd-feeder-for-diy-prototype-pick-place-en.html(even cheeper price on ebaywww.ebay.com/itm/SMT-SMD-Feeder-for-DIY-Prototype-Pick-Up-Place-5-Way-i-/360679650359)and the same including vacuum pump and penhttp://www.wtotoy.com/1-set-5-way-smt-smd-feeder-and-air-pump-vacuum-suction-pen-for-diy-prototype-pick-place-en.html

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 05:13:06 pm
content: Hi all,I'm sure I've posted my oven on here somewhere sometime in the past, but today I made some mods and logged data out of the Arduino and into Excel. My heaters are a bit slow hence the reflow takes 350secs total, but I think the plot is quite good.I was also testing an internal fan I have just added to help move the heat around to help cure some cold/hotspot issues with big pcb's (I do have a diffuser in-front of the fan but removed it for the photo).

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:08:50 am
content: Quote from: hairykiwi on January 03, 2014, 12:03:10 pmSorry for the delay in responding, I didn't notice the question previously. Here are the exact sources I used for both the reflective tape and the heater element. The storefront with that heater element had a wide range of element sizes / power ratings at reasonable prices. The heater element was used in addition to the two elements that were already in the oven (I'm guessing they are 500W each too).Reflect-A-Gold tape (this stuff is NOT cheap, but nothing really compares to it, also will need two rolls to fully cover the inside of an oven - I wasn't able to cover the door and about two inches of the bottom with just a single roll):http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0039Z5TYU/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i05?ie=UTF8&psc=1500W heating element:http://www.ebay.com/itm/230913607229?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:11:58 am
content: Quote from: JoeN on January 04, 2014, 01:59:50 amI contributed back my version of the software to his code repository (mine is the "v2" code).I'm not sure why exactly that chip was selected. I'm sure Peter would give an answer though if you asked him. He's been very responsive to me when I had other questions / problems.

author: hairykiwi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 10:26:18 am
content: Quote from: MacAttak on January 11, 2014, 12:08:50 amThanks for the links.

author: matkar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 08:52:09 pm
content: TWO YEARS LATER!!!I've followed this link from 2014 but got nothing.Quote from: JoeN on January 04, 2014, 01:59:50 amNo link to the schematic is available on ControLeo github repository anymore:https://github.com/engineertype/ControLeoI can't find the schematic elsewere either. The closest I came is here:http://blog.atmel.com/2013/10/23/controleo-is-a-quad-relay-controller/?utm_source=tuicool&utm_medium=referral/but due to low resolution it's not usable.Does anbody still have the schematic for this project?

author: Po6ept
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 09:02:55 pm
content: You can save yourself a lot of effort by buying a solid state relay, an Auber Instruments SYS-2352P (or equivalent) Ramp and Soak PID Temperature Controller, and a thermocouple. Add the three components to an old toaster oven that has enough elements for quick heating and you have a reflow oven.In the US, most toaster ovens are wired for 120V. I found one with separate top and bottom elements for broiling/toasting vs. baking. I wired the top and bottom element sets sets in series and run the oven from 240V for fast and even heating.http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4

author: matkar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 10:05:55 am
content: Currently I use a hot plate with manual control, but I want a new toy. I figured since I almost have all the parts necessary I'd assemble ControLeo hardware using parts I have.Actually the only thing not clear to me is the wiring of the port expander MCP23008 to LCD. I can only guess it is wired the same way as the adafruit's LCD IO expander:https://learn.adafruit.com/i2c-spi-lcd-backpack/connect-to-i2cbut I'd like to receive a confirmation if someone knows before I buy/build it.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 05:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: matkar on May 03, 2016, 08:52:09 pmI found this in my libraries directory for ControLeo. I think this is an older version.Directory of Z:\arduino-1.0.1\libraries\ControLeo04/13/2014 11:32 PM <DIR> .04/13/2014 11:32 PM <DIR> ..01/03/2014 11:06 PM 78,025 ControLeo-Schematic.png01/13/2014 01:18 AM 573 ControLeo.h01/03/2014 11:06 PM 7,884 ControLeo_LiquidCrystal.cpp01/03/2014 11:06 PM 2,443 ControLeo_LiquidCrystal.h01/03/2014 11:06 PM 5,849 ControLeo_MAX31855.cpp01/03/2014 11:06 PM 558 ControLeo_MAX31855.h01/03/2014 11:06 PM 2,092 ControLeo_MCP23008.cpp01/03/2014 11:06 PM 521 ControLeo_MCP23008.h04/13/2014 11:32 PM <DIR> examples01/03/2014 11:06 PM 1,019 keywords.txt