Is This Well Pump Generator / Main panel schematic done properly? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ThermallyFrigid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2024, 07:49:09 pm
content: Hello,Wiring up my well pumps for generator backup power.What I have is a Rotary Switch which acts as a transfer switch and will not allow accidental backfeeding.I also have a L14-30 Generator Power inlet Box.Below is the wiring I have made to accomplish this but was hoping someone experienced could look at it and tell me if there are any mistakes.ThanksHere is the Rotary Switch Schematic

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 02:34:53 am
content: It looks good to me but you need to connect the ground wire to the generator as well. IMO you can connect it directly and it doesn't need to go through the switch.I'm assuming that your well pump runs directly off of 220 volts and doesn't need a neutral wire. (Mine is that way.)

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 03:28:28 pm
content: Include the ground directly to the L14-30 receptacle. Don't run the ground through the switch!! It looks as though you have a portable generator on wheels? Make sure the generator carries a grounding wire the the plug! It should also be bonded to the metal chassis of the generator. Is your connection to the generator done with a suicide cord having a male plug on each end of the cord? I see that often when both the generator and house connection are L14-30R receptacles and connection is through a cord with L14-30P plugs on each end.

author: ThermallyFrigid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 06:37:08 pm
content: Hello SE,Correct.I see two 120 hots and no neutral on the pumps.Here is a closeup of one of the two water pump's electrical connectionsWhen I place my meter leads on A and B, I get 240vTerminal A to ground is 120 and terminal B to ground is 120. No neutral.The white wires are going from C and D terminals into the pump housing. and A is physically connected to C, and B is physically connected to D terminalThanks

author: ThermallyFrigid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 06:52:52 pm
content: Quote from: CaptDon on February 09, 2024, 03:28:28 pmHello Capt Don,Sounds good. Thanks.I'm not going to use a suicide cord but a standard L14-30 Male to L14-30 Female store bought cord.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 08:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: ThermallyFrigid on February 09, 2024, 06:37:08 pmYes, that's the same as the switch that I have on my well pump. It's just a big, pressure operated double pole single throw switch. Two hots only, no neutral and the metal chassis is connected to the ground wire going to the pump motor and to the ground wire coming from the electrical distribution panel (and in your case also the generator chassis).

author: calzap
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 08:48:25 pm
content: That switch has a Baomain tradmark. Does it have a certifying agency (UL, CSA, ETL, TUV, etc.) approval on it? If not, don’t use it. “CE” aka China Export is not good enough. In addition, any switch used for this purpose should have a HP rating equal to or greater than the pump. Amperage rating alone is not sufficient.I have a similar setup for one of my wells. Done with a county permit, inspected and approved. This is required in most jurisdictions. Work must be done according to code with listed materials.Cables coming into the pressure switch box should have proper clamps on them. One appears to be coming in through the removed plastic cover, which is probably not OK (depends on the structure of cover, but cable needs to be clamped in any case).Mike

author: ThermallyFrigid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 08:56:33 pm
content: Quote from: CaptDon on February 09, 2024, 03:28:28 pmOn this generator, NEUTRAL and GROUND are NOT BONDED.On the MAINS connection I did as you suggested. The GROUND from MAINS is directly connected to GROUND from the PUMPS, not through the switch.I will make sure the generator L14-30 GROUND Pin is Grounded to the chassis.So in the Generator L14-30 Box, Neutral will have no connection? That would make sense since the Pumps do not use a Neutral connection?Quote from: CaptDon on February 09, 2024, 03:28:28 pmYes, on wheels.GROUND is indeed Bonded to the frame.Neutral is floating (no connection to frame or ground)As mentioned above, the cord is store bought and female on one end, male on the other. Both ends are L14-30Do I need a ground rod in the ground (Earth) and a wire connected from the chassis / frame to that grounding rod in this case?It seems to me that the Ground to the pumps is already grounded since it is directly connected the the MAINS GROUND regardless of whether the power is being supplied by the MAINS or the GENERATOR?What (if any) implications could that have in case of a short of some kind while running on generator power?

author: ThermallyFrigid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 09:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: calzap on February 09, 2024, 08:48:25 pmI just purchased the home recently.Unfortunately quite a bit of electrical work was done under the radar and absolutely not up to code.If I told you all the whack things that were done you'd be in shock. (pun intended)Hard to believe what people will do way out in the sticks.I'm trying to make sure there are no immediate hazards.Code compliance....I will be working towards that.

author: calzap
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 09:24:24 pm
content: Pic below shows wiring for using my generator with one well. Transfer switch is a Leviton DPST rated for 2 HP (pump is 2 HP). One thing I learned the hard way is the internal contact movements on these Leviton switches are oriented 90 degrees from the direction of travel of the toggle. Read the spec sheet!Not shown on the pic is the generator has an independent Ufer ground.Mike

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 10:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: ThermallyFrigid on February 09, 2024, 08:56:33 pm1. No, Per the NEC the electrical system can only be tied to earth ground at the point where the electrical service enters the home. So no ground rod at the gene if it's tied to the home's electrical system. OTOH if you left out the ground wire back to the electrical system then I suppose that you could argue that you could connect a ground rod to the gene. But IMO I would only use a ground rod if I was completely unplugging (physically disconnecting) the well from the electrical system. But since you're using a switch, I would leave out the ground rod and make a ground (non-switched) through the electrical system.2. True.3. As long as the pressure switch and the well pump are completely insulated from their chassises and the well casing and the generator is grounded via a ground rod or through the electrical system (but not both), there shouldn't be any implications in the event of the gene shorting out; except that the well pump won't run.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 10:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: calzap on February 09, 2024, 09:24:24 pm

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2024, 11:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: ThermallyFrigid on February 09, 2024, 09:00:12 pmI just want to commend you for your well explained and documented question. It is a pleasure to see things presented like that. I have to bite my tongue when i see questions where the OP has not put the minimum effort or interest and anyone trying to help has to extract information little by little and with great effort.Your setup looks good to me and if the switch is of suitable quality I would not be too concerned with UL marking.Code compliance is a goal to work towards but for me it is not the ultimate goal. In some cases I might deviate from code if I have a good reason and I know what I am doing.Good luck with your projects!

author: ThermallyFrigid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2024, 07:13:04 pm
content: In this situation, the previous home owner installed a 30A breaker in the homes main panel and ran two HOTS and GROUND out to the well pump shed.From there he added a breaker and ran the 240v pump connections.However, he needed to run several 120v appliances namely, a dosing pump (120v), a 100gallon reservoir tank that has some kind of 120v device inline with it and a overhead light in the shed.So what he did was for each 120v appliance that needed power he tapped ONE LEG of the 240v circuit and then combined the GROUND and NEUTRAL of each appliance and Used the GROUND in the Breaker Box at the well pump shed to complete the circuit.I have successfully completed the 240v part of the setup but decided to use a separate rotary switch and inlet box for the 120v part.Here is a diagram of where I am but I am confused as to where to connect the GROUND coming from the 120v outlet socket in relation to the 120v rotary switch and 120v pump (see diagram below)Hope this makes senseAny DIY advice appreciated.

author: calzap
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 12:24:58 am
content: Neutral should be bonded to ground only in the service entrance panel. There should be appropriate gauge ground wires going from the service entrance panel to each subpanel. The well pump should be on a dedicated circuit. Lighting and 120 VAC receptacles should be on a different circuit. You need a subpanel in the well house, and it should be earth-grounded and have ground and neutral wires going back to the panel that feeds it. But its neutral should not be grounded.Mike

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 03:36:19 am
content: Quote from: calzap on February 09, 2024, 08:48:25 pmAlthough a lot of China crap has all kinds of fake certification stamped all over it, CE stands for “Conformité Européenne” and as such is an official recognised standard, how well that or any standards are policed is another matter. The best ones to follow are of course those recognised for your local regulations.

author: calzap
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 04:03:31 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on February 14, 2024, 03:36:19 amWish it were always so. Unfortunately, CE can indicate Conformité Européenne or China Export. The two symbols are in the pic below and explained in the link. Now imagine the symbols reduced to a few mm high on an object. Could you easily decide which is which? In addition, Chinese manufacturers aren’t always careful which they stamp on merchandise.Mikehttps://www.kimuagroup.com/news/differences-between-ce-and-china-export-markings/

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 08:20:57 am
content: Quote from: calzap on February 14, 2024, 04:03:31 amThis is the salient point here, thanks Mike. It's pretty obvious that it's done to deceive.Xena

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2024, 09:58:16 am
content: I do not believe there is a valid or recognized "China Export" mark. I believe it is just a way of using the CE mark and trying to play the trick that it is not really the CE mark. No judge or jury would be deceived by the ruse.But I am not sure there is much or any control on the use of the CE mark so I think anyone can just put it on any product. I suppose, in theory, the validity could be checked by inspection at the point of entry to the EU but ....