EEVblog #670 - FLIR TG165 Lepton Sensor Followup - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 10:03:29 am
content: A followup on the FLIR TG165 Visual Thermometer / Thermal Camera teardown. A look at the micro-shutter and some thermal chamber experiments and scope measurements on the SPI data from the Lepton sensor used.

author: woox2k
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 10:42:01 am
content: Power the sensor without any external controller, then you know for sure what is controlling the shutter.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:09:58 am
content: Lepton datasheet :https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3wmCw6bdPqFdXI1bEFnOHdWZTQ/editI2C bus isn't used for much at the moment it seems. Flir haven't yet released the command spec.There is some info in the examples on the Pure Engineering pagehttp://www.pureengineering.com/projects/leptonBut I couldn't get the Flir One sensor to respond to most of them, so I guess firmware is different.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:12:52 am
content: The fact that it seems to be working with no I2C interaction could be a very nice bit of design -- when the Lepton sensor wakes up, it just starts outputting video straight away, and takes care of NUC itself.Ifyou want more control (e.g. "Dear Lepton sensor, I've just placed a shutter that I know is at 24.37 degrees C in your field of view, calibrate off that please"), you're free to take control via I2C, but many simpler applications like this won't need to go to that complication. I'll take five!

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:36:42 am
content: With the risk of making a fool of myself, (or possibly you!) are you sure that you were actually probing the I2C clock pin? It seems odd that there would be a single ~500 ns pulse on the I2C bus. It would make sense if there was no activity, but a single pulse? Maybe there's a hardware bug, and the module won't start up without that pulse...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:37:32 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on October 04, 2014, 11:12:52 amYes, I thought that was very elegant, no mess, no fuss.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:38:46 am
content: Quote from: nitro2k01 on October 04, 2014, 11:36:42 amPretty sure, I buzzed it out.Likely just a setup thing on the micro or something.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:54:49 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 04, 2014, 11:09:58 amWouldn't surprise me if Flir products using their Lepton had unique firmware for each product, and it's only the OEM modules they sell would be as documented.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:16:28 pm
content: You mean flir?btw: i heared fresnel is pronounced fren-nell.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on October 04, 2014, 12:16:28 pmI've never heard anyone in Australia pronounce it like that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:36:37 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 04, 2014, 12:29:17 pmWhy be embarrassed, countless people say it either way, just like many other thing, and it's perfectly acceptable. The anal retentives can choke on it

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 04, 2014, 12:22:31 pmAs it's French the "s" is technically silent, but most people seem to pronounce it these days

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 09:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 04, 2014, 12:22:31 pmIn the stage lighting industry everyone says it as "fren-ell", but most people new to the term usually say "frez-nell". I know I did years ago.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 10:57:45 pm
content: Yes it's "freh-nell"

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 02:52:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 04, 2014, 11:29:17 pmFrom Dave's tone of voice, I suspect he edited the video to remove some dead time, and happened to edit a way a bit too much.

author: morpheus
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 07:34:03 am
content: Is it possible to buy one of thoosse lepton sensors somewhere, without buying whole thing?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 07:43:09 am
content: Quote from: morpheus on October 05, 2014, 07:34:03 amI think mike's videos on the Flir one he said they weren't available to buy.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 08:24:48 am
content: Quote from: morpheus on October 05, 2014, 07:34:03 amSure, if you want to buy 1000qty at $250ea they will be happy to take your money. All others get a

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 08:51:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2014, 08:24:48 amAnd of course for that price they will only enable the features you order, and disable the rest permanently. They will also lock in the resolution and frame rate you want as well, and will not allow you to disclose any info under a NDA.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 09:21:04 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 05, 2014, 08:51:53 amResolution & framerate are fixed, though I suspect it is capable of higher framerate - why else would the interface run at 3x the actual rate...Datasheet is released (link above) & I'm told the I2C command stuff is on its way

author: morpheus
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 09:36:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2014, 08:24:48 amYeah, not a option for meIs there similar modules, with at least 60x60 resolution, available for hobbyists?

author: Grapsus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 09:42:29 am
content: Apparently some people obtained a deal from Flir which enables them to order in 100 batches :https://groupgets.com/campaigns/31-flir-lepton-thermal-imager-batch-2Still, 250 bucks is a stiff price if it's just for playing around with the sensor with no real project.Maybe I2C is used to update the internal firmware of the sensor ? It might be interesting to trigger a firmware update on the device and probe the I2C bus at the same time...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 09:54:28 am
content: Quote from: Grapsus on October 05, 2014, 09:42:29 amI'd be surprised if the TG165 had the ability to update the FW on the sensor.Since Seek Thermal announced, Flir Ones have started dropping below RRP on Ebay, and combined with the Iphone 6 launch, I don't think it will be long before you will be able to easily get an F1 to harvest the sensor for $250 or less. Even if Flir don't drop the F1 price.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 08:24:39 pm
content: Does the F1 sensor pulse the 2 micro-shutter pins when it does a correction or does that come from elsewhere on that sensor?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 09:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on October 05, 2014, 08:24:39 pmUnless it's a product that has the shutter, I doubt it would try to activate it ( it's possible it may sense if the coil is connected), as it needs to know if there is a shutter, otherwise it would try to cal from an image that was not "flat"

author: eripaha
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 05:23:59 am
content: I really did not like these thermal camera tear down videos, but hey i hope other people did.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 05:27:56 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 05, 2014, 09:17:18 pmDefinitely.That is why I think each product is tailored with it's own (likely non-upgradable) Lepton firmware.And I expect the ones you can buy OEM will be different again.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 08:37:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2014, 05:27:56 amPossibly, but if the only configurable option is shutter or not then they could detect its presence automatically by whether or not a coil was connected.Another possibility is simply that they hadn't finished the full OEM firmware in time for production of F1 and TG165.I don't think there is enough additional functionality in the OEM version to be worth the hassle of dealing with multiple firmware versions to prevent people using harvested "consumer" units.Except of course for frame rate - If a >9fps version exists then it needs to be different due to export controls.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 11:22:49 am
content: Regarding sample availability. I have approached FLIR for a sample through official channels and can confirm that I did not even get a reply. I suspect that they have had many such requests and are now just ignoring them.Having looked at the new FLIR MUON core web page I see that they make it very clear that they have no interest in supplying quantities of less than 1000 units and this is to ensure quality of service to industry ? I suspect they wish to avoid being bombarded with questions from small scale users or companies.I have placed an order for the SEEK unit and, IMHO, that may offer a far better option to developers as the complete camera unit is only $199. I am hoping that it will be like the SDR Dongles..... as in it outputs RAW data and its capabilities are defined by the software used with it. The LEPTON may be very small and neat but its is only 80x60 pixels.....far less than the SEEK imager chip offers.Anyone wishing to design their own TIC based on an OEM core would do well to speak to SEEK as I suspect that they are chasing market share and will be more friendly. FLIR are a large organisation that has many layers of beaurocracy to penetrate.Aurora

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 01:42:03 am
content: Is the muon not the same as the flir one?(17µ VOx FPA technology - 640 x 512 and 336 x 256 resolutions (60 Hz and 9 Hz frame rates))And is it not possible for adafruit etc, to sell. I suppose they'd need to bankroll $250k.I guess nda etc would complicate things.Would need a library/sdk still.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 04:27:38 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on October 07, 2014, 01:42:03 amFLIR One and FLIR TG165 both use the Lepton sensor which is only 80*60 resolution.Quote from: nowlan on October 07, 2014, 01:42:03 amNot sure Adafruit would actually be able to push 1000 of those units to the public at that price, even if sold without profit, mainly because of the lack of usable tools atm. And FLIR might not be willing to sell to a retailer.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 08:27:55 am
content: The guys atPure Engineeringseem to have persuaded them to sell - I understand the arrangement is an order of 1K with drop-ships of 100. Not sure what happens if the orders dry up after 100.....They have also got permission from Flir to publish the datasheet, and I'm told will also be making the I2C interface docs available once Flir have finished it.However I suspect a lot of people are waiting to see details on Seek before committing to Lepton. Backers for the Lepton buy seemed to stop dead once Seek announced.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 09:52:21 am
content: The seek has usb interface for 199$ and better resolution?From the pure engineering post:https://www.tindie.com/products/PureEngineering/flir-lepton-thermal-camera-breakout-2/$48https://groupgets.com/campaigns/31-flir-lepton-thermal-imager-batch-2$257.48edit: doesnt appear to have the NUC filter.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 12:24:12 pm
content: Answer : Seek has a USB interface that connects to mobile phones using USB OTG. The Seek resolution is 205 x 156 pixels (32136 total active pixels) It is a complete raw data capture module and IIRC contains the NUC shutter. It has far greater resolution than the 80 x 60 pixel FLIR Lepton but it is still early days in the SEEK project and the image noise levels are presently on the high side for my liking. The fact that the module outputs data for processing on a mobile phone via USB may offer great opportunities for open source software however ?Take a look here for more details on the SEEK product:http://thermal.com/what_is_thermal_desktop.htmlThis forum has a thread on it as well. Search for 'SEEK'

author: callipso
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 12:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 04, 2014, 09:13:31 pmI usually say fresnel and here's why: saying frennel in english (or in my case in czech) IMHO is a hybrid - either say freznel or frennel with the weird frenchy R and silent-ish L at the end..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 12:48:25 pm
content: FYI, this mob do group guys on the Lepton and sell one-off.https://www.groupgets.com/campaigns/31-flir-lepton-thermal-imager-batch-2