Keysight MSO upgrade, what's the verdict? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: k4rlhp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 09:19:07 pm
content: Hi,I have 3000T series DSO.Thinking of upgrading to MSONow I ran int these few questions that I seem to need some help with..1: what's in the box?3000T series data sheet has this to say about it:- page 35, "(N2756A MSO cable delivered separately)"- page 34 probe section, "N2756A 16 digital channel MSO cable; 1 per scope included on all MSO models and DSOXT3MSO"My logic concludes that the 1350€ +VAT = 1620€ upgrade includes the N2756A probe set.If not, disaster ensues since the total cost would become (1350€ + 760€)*VAT = 2532€What's the story? Included or separate?2: Separate monitor needed?The main point in getting MSO upgrade is to work with analog and digital domain simultaneously on one UI/display. Otherwise a Saleae 16pro or similar would be much cheaper option, depending on needs (would do for me).I've so far used 2 of 4 analogue channels for digital analysis and 2 for analogue ... with all the stuff on scope's display the screen real-estate simply runs out. It's difficult to discern what's where. Now I see need for 4digital + 4 analogue and soon up to 8 digital channels required.Is the VGA option of any help here? Will mirroring the display on a much larger 24" screen make it much more visible, or is it hopeless due to WVGA res. limit of 800x480?3: The verdict?Considering the above, does it make more sense to go with a Saleae or some other similar product and save some money?I've found analog-digital side.by.side quite useful. But if UI limit basically ruins this thenThanks!

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 10:47:58 pm
content: The DSOXT3MSO upgrade kit includes the license code, an N2756A (probe grabbers, probe cable etc) and a front plate sticker (MSO-X 3104T)the probe cable (N2756A) can also be purchased separately but you don't need it if you buy the upgrade kit.There's no benefit in using an external monitor for the LA in my opinion. You have your hands on the controls anyway and end up with a stiff neck

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2016, 10:54:58 pm
content: For that kind of money you can buy a seperate low end MSO!Isn't there some upgrade deal from Keysight because I imagine you may also want protocol decoding?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 12:31:09 am
content: I don't have the 3000T but I do have an MSO3054A which has a very similar setup but lacks the touch screen. The screen does indeed get busy, you need to take a bit of care how you set it up, and once you zoom in of course it's even worse. I am not sure what it is you are doing that needs eight digital channels, it's pretty rare I run more than four or five digital channels these days with the analogue channels.It's an eye-wateringly expensive option :-(As someone else said, the VGA isn't really going to help as it's the same screen replicated. Possibly it might afford marginally better visibility on a larger area, but the internal screen size with the given fixed resolution is about right to my eyes.I don't know what bandwidth your scope is: I'm almost tempted to say sell it and buy a second hand one with the MSO option already installed, it's likely to be cheaper, assuming you can find a reasonable second hand one of course!As Nico says you could buy a separate MSO for that money, two or three if it's a Rigol!

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 12:37:51 am
content: Having serial triggers is awesome. Time correlation between analog events and digital is awesome.I have a scope, Saleae. and a Beagle - all separate and a total PITA compared to full integration, IMHO.

author: k4rlhp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 06:55:28 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 03, 2016, 10:54:58 pmProtocol decoding, yes, (un)fortunately I have the appbundle installed.Paid money for itI guess that's what you get when you buy early.K

author: k4rlhp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 09:24:39 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on April 04, 2016, 12:37:51 amCorrelation is indeed a nice feature that I would like to keep.Have you tried to orchestrate triggering from scope trig out?Does that improve the situation a little?This is what I was thinking with Saleae, let the scope handle the triggering (I have appbndl installed that enables HW trigger on some protocols) and get trigger to Saleae from scope trig out.And then use the scope's webserver and Saleae UI on PC to get a fairly coordinated picture.A bit complicated workflow and I'm not sure how well this would actually work. Plus VGA option for scope is also ca. 600€Another possibility is to get another (USB) logic analyser, like the Zeroplus LAP-C (or F1) that supports HW triggering and trig out but the workflow will still be complicated.Karl

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 12:55:40 pm
content: I have a MSO6000 and i have very rarely used the digital channels(Granted i was missing the cable for the digital probe for a while, but still). I don't know why exactly i bought a digital probe cable for my MSO9000 seeing how little use i give it. I think it was mostly because cables for those scopes are rare and i happened to see a good deal for one on ebay so i had to get it.In the vast majority of cases 4 channels on a scope are enough since it covers all the common serial buses and parallel is very rare these days.So a cheaper USB analyzer like the Saleae is often a better choice for the odd chance you need 8 or 16 channels. Also those stream data to the PCs RAM so with enough RAM you can record for pretty much as long as you would want and then browse trough the data at your own pace. Something that scopes are not all that good at doing due to limited memory and user interface.But it depends on what your particular use case is. Perhaps you need 16 channels at high sample rate and analog correlation, then MSO is for you.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 04:21:50 pm
content: I agree, that most people do not need 16 digital channels very often and that it is pretty expensive. But I frequently need 4 or 6 plus one or two analogue channels, and sometimes you need to decode TWO serial bus(mmm- whats the plural: buses, busses?)at the same time.I just needed this to find a problem:1) SPI Communication from/to CAN controller thus MISO, MOSI, SCK, CS (CS needed, because there was also a Flash memory chip using the same SPI bus).2) CAN Rx/Tx Output from CAN ControllerThat makes 6 channels and two serial decoders needed at the same time.And I also had two analog channels visualizing CAN H and CAN L, not really needed (in this case) - but you never know before - and.... just because I could ...

author: k4rlhp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2016, 09:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on April 04, 2016, 12:55:40 pmRight, I think this is what I gravitate towards.Pity that Saleae has not implemented HW triggering but I think I can work around this limitation a bit.Saleae usability seems the best out there and thats important.Specs seem to cut it too, just about.Thanks.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 05:52:26 am
content: Quote from: k4rlhp on April 04, 2016, 09:35:37 pmThe ones i have is the old original Saleae 8 bit and a cheep Chinese clone of the old 16 bit one. Both work pretty well. The sample rate is not terribly high due to having to stream everything over USB.Yeah you don't get any triggering past simple edge and state triggers, but a lot of the time i haven't even used a trigger at all. Just hit run and let it record a few seconds around the event of interest and then scroll trough the data to the interesting part. A bit of a problem is searching for specific data in a busy always active serial stream, for that you can export it in to excel or something. Again not the best but does the job in like 99% of use cases.