Siglent's new products -  SDS3000 series oscilloscopes - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 08:18:59 am
content: Siglent have developed new series of oscilloscopes. These are Siglents top models.On the paper it looks very interesting.SDS3000 series have 2 and 4 channels models for 100MHz up to 1GHz range.Sampling speed is max 4GSa/s in 200, 350, 500MHz and 1GHz models. 100MHz models have max 2GSa/s as in SDS2000 series all models)Waveform update rate up to 250kwfms/sIt is normal and mixed signal oscilloscope.It have 10,1" 1024x600 TFT (also interface for external monitor)10Mpoints/channel memoryOf course in this class it is natural it have lot of advanced trigger and acquire features.Option: Internal function generator (AWG) 125MSa/s 16kpoints. (output bacside)Option: MSO 16 channel, 500MSa/s memory 10MOption: Decoder for IIC, SPI LIN, CAN etc.Attached front picture of SDS3054note small text left bottom of display"Siglent Powered by Teledyne Lecroy"(bad joke in professionals coffee break: in future they may change it for Teledyne Lecroy powered by Siglent. Worls is changing.)

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 08:34:47 am
content: This new Siglent scope is very similar to HDO4000 series. It is funny.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 08:39:19 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 26, 2014, 08:34:47 amAs I told:bottom of Siglent TFT screen read: Siglent Powered by Teledyne Lecroy.(it can read using some artist freedoms: "Siglent Teledyne LeCroy")

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 08:42:57 am
content: So what? Does Siglent use some older LeCroy ASICs or something?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 09:17:00 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 26, 2014, 08:42:57 amKindly.Your question reflects your thoughts.I will not become a guessing game. I will not speculate referred to by circumstance.I pointed out just what the bottom of the screen reads. Since it is a bit of a new phenomenon.Secondly, HDO4000 series is almost completely different device. Although the external convergence is. This in turn does not conflict with anything. Especially when you consider the text at the bottom of the screen which, at least for me is the first time when the product bears the name of Siglent.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 09:29:33 am
content: Is there a price yet? Otherwise there's really no way of comparing.Given it's 1GHz max bandwidth, do I assume that 4GSa/s is per channel?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 10:01:11 am
content: Quote from: Harvs on May 26, 2014, 09:29:33 amNot yet overseas price.But if look domestic price it give something for thinking.SDS2000 series starting around CNY6000 and SDS3000 starting around CNY 20000.I do not believe simultaneous 4GSa/s for all channels.This is what I think after read chinese datasheet etc.It is organized so that 2 channel group have 4GSa/s (for single channel in use in two channel group 4GSa/s and for both channels in use 2GSa/s per channel. In 4 channel model there is 2 x 2channel group.(in 100 MHz model 2GSa/s arranged as in SDS2000)If this is true then 4 channel model can use with 2 channel so that both have 4GSa/s.Of course real time work need least 4GSa/s for 1GHz BW.For repetitive signals this is not at all problem when use repetitive sampling.So, it is not fully 1GHz real time oscilloscope if all available channels are used simultaneously.Analog channel before ADC is designed for 1GHz BW. Risetime better or equal 350ps.

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 10:08:55 am
content: These look very nice,but expensive!!!!!, to the real world I have just been bought a Siglent SDS-1102-CNL 100Mhz1GB sampling, I am absolutely totally happy with it, as mainly a hobbyist, it does me fine compared to my 10Mhz CRO,plus it's helping me in repairing a servicing which something I seem to have fallen into, and really enjoying. The SDSD 3000 series are without any doubt on a different universe to mine, but if I could afford one,which I can't ,would it really make much difference to my level of electronics!!!!!.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 10:11:13 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 26, 2014, 08:42:57 amSiglents builds these scopes and sells a rebranded version to Lecroy. All of Lecroy's 'low end' range equipment is made by Siglent.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 10:35:19 am
content: So that DS6000 series from Rigol is still unbeaten.http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds6000/And It was introduced in 8/2011.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 12:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 26, 2014, 08:18:59 amAssuming the picture is genuine, I'm not sure that this is really a Siglent development...Quote...because based on the picture this would suggest this scope uses LeCroy's proprietary XStream technology and software. It would also mean that this scope is likely to run Windows (as XStream software is based on Windows), with a complete PC inside the scope, which will make it very expensive (and I'm not sure many will spend that much on a Siglent scope).And even if it is a XStream scope, the question will be if it does have all the capabilities of a LeCroy XStream scope, and will the advanced options be available for it as well.Edit:I did a search and found Siglent's spec sheet for that scope (in Chinese):http://www.siglent.com/DataSheet/CN/SDS3000_dataSheet_CN.pdfIt talks about USB Host and device ports (XStream scopes don't do USB device mode), however the pictures do look like a XStream scope, although the screen images lack the Aero effect that can be seen on current LeCroy scopes like the HDO4000 series.The scope also seem to have ProBus probe interfaces.Very strange.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 08:58:29 pm
content: I like the back panel, but why is there a D-SUB instead of DVI? Come on, it is 2014. My old 17" LG monitor from 2006 has a DVI video input.

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 09:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 26, 2014, 08:18:59 amOK, the series starts out @ 2CH 100MHzQuote from: rf-loop on May 26, 2014, 10:01:11 amI take that to mean for about 3200.00 US$ for a 100MHz 2CH Scope... Not very competitive at all...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 09:27:31 pm
content: Apparently it will only be available to Western markets as a LeCroy.I am not sure that this is a good thing, but I do have a vested interest.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 12:04:17 am
content: Oh, poor LeCroy.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 12:04:37 am
content: Bringing more competition to the market. Always a good thing. This is an interesting scope, as it is Siglent's move to push into the mid range of scope markets up to 1GHz. Very interesting to see how this scope performs.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 12:13:06 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on May 27, 2014, 12:04:37 amBut what about probes? I wonder what the 1GHz model comes with and at what price?

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 12:17:53 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 26, 2014, 08:58:29 pmwhy ask for DVI then? displayport is the "display"-oriented standard.(HDMI is the consumer all-in-one cable, so don't even dare!)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 06:35:48 am
content: Quote from: Harvs on May 27, 2014, 12:13:06 amAs we can quess scope probe connection is compatible with LeCroy ProBus.I do not have any knowledge what probes they include with 1GHz model.But If take some things together "Powered by Teledyne LeCroy"Scope front image where can see ProBus looks like interface for probe.BW 1GHz.With these in mind looking what is Teledyne LeCroy solution for this.Good probe for this is example ZS1500 from Teledyne Lecroy.QuoteThis probe separate purchased fron Farnell in Finland. (http://fi.farnell.com/lecroy/zs1500/probe-active-1-5ghz/dp/1272493?Ntt=ZS1500)One single probe: 1 860,00 € (0% VAT)Including VAT 2 306,40 €It DO NOT mean that with this Siglent is exactly this probe! This was just only for imagine that this class of probes are not cheap.I think over 500MHz it is difficult to think that scope is equipped only with passive probes.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 10:13:00 am
content: According to someone in the LeCroy Yahoo group this scope is supposed to replace the LeCroy WaveSurfer Series. It seems to run Windows CE (like the Agilent DSO-X) so it's not a fully fledged PC. The XStream software is also cut down and seem to lack most of the options available for current LeCroy XStream scopes.Apparently LeCroy is now working with Siglent in a similar way they have been with Iwatsu, i..e Lecroy provides software and Siglent provides the hardware design. Although it is certainly a good thing if Siglent doesn't do the software (something which they are terrible at) on that thing, but I'm not sure that Siglent can provide the appropriate quality for such products. The Iwatsu-made LeCroys like the WaveSurfer weren't cheap but they were high quality scopes with loads of processing power, advanced software and the capability to install MathLab, LabView or any other Windows software directly onto the scope. This is now supposed to be replaced by a scope running some embedded OS and a stripped down variant of the XStream software on a low power platform.The current WaveSurfer starts at $11k for the 4Ch 200MHz variant. Based on the price difference between a WaveAce and the original Siglent scope, my guess would be that (assuming the price of roughly $3200 is for the Siglent SDS3102 2Ch 100MHz is correct) the LeCroy variant of that scope will probaby go for roughly $8k (based on the way they upsell their Siglent-made WaveAce/WaveStation). This would mean that the 4Ch 200MHz variant will probably be close to what the current WaveSufer costs, and this IMHO is excessive for a scope like the SDS3000.I also wonder how LeCroy will prevent the Siglent variant (which is supposed to be sold in China only) to find its way to Europe and the US, which means lost sales (Siglent support is worse than LeCroys which is important but if the LeCroy variant is costing almost 3x as much then you can buy two Siglent scopes and still save a lot of money).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 10:22:18 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 27, 2014, 06:35:48 amNot a problem at all as long as the scope has 50 Ohm inputs. Some passive divider HF probes go to several GHz.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 11:01:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 27, 2014, 10:22:18 amOf course. All can do, also sell scopes without any probes or passive probes or what ever. What is wise, I do not know. Keysight may know better.And even to 1M input as Tektronix TPP1000But also these are not cheap and input capacitance is quite high for 1GHz (around 4pF tip)And more if look 50ohm passive probes (examplehttp://www.ggb.com/10.html) or even diy probes what we did tens of years ago (in military exercise workshop just for rest time fun and playing)Of course <1pF is different as 4pF and so on. 4pF cap reactance with 1GHz freq is around 40 ohm.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 11:31:30 am
content: QuoteExactly what I have asked Siglent.The Chinese market will be more profitable per unit than sales to LeCroy so we may well see some units "migrate" to the west.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2014, 04:34:46 pm
content: I found some hi-res photos.http://www.siglent.com/cn/product/detail.aspx?id=100000012056253&nodecode=105008001

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 05:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 27, 2014, 10:13:00 amExcept the cost of a 2-channel, 200 MHz LeCroy version (WaveSurfer 3022) is only $3,200 USD, not $8k. Perhaps that price guess for the SDS3102 was too high?QuoteThe differential isn't what you projected. Still, it's surprising (and unfortunate) that the LeCroy version does not support some protocols (like CAN and LIN), that the Siglent version does. And Siglent offers a lower-priced 100 MHz option, which LeCroy bypassed.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 05:55:47 pm
content: Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 06:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mark_O on September 18, 2014, 05:47:02 pmNo shit, Sherlock? But you*are*aware that I wrote thatwas four months agowhen the LeCroy variant wasn't even announced, right???Although I agree that the pricing is a pleasant surprise. It seems that LeCroy learnt their lesson from the WaveAce. For that price it certainly looks like a very nice scope. Siglent has already proven that they can produce quality hardware.The positioning as WaveSurfer is still a bit odd, but I guess they wanted to re-position the WaveSurfer a little bit further below the WaveRunner to avoid cannibalization.QuoteI'm sure if the Siglent version supports it then the LeCroy version will, too, as LeCroy seems to be the one who develops the software not Siglent. But yeah, the decoding capabilities are a bit thin (I'm missing stuff like ARINC429/MIL-Std 1553 which was supported by the preceeding WaveSurfer models (and which Agilent offers for the DSO-X3000 Series, which is what the WaveSurfer 3000 competes with).I can also see why LeCroy doesn't offer the 100MHz version as it doesn't make much sense (it wouldn't be much cheaper than the 200MHz version, and who would buy an advanced scope with only 100MHz bandwidth anyways?).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 06:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 18, 2014, 05:55:47 pmI don't think they will be available outside, I bet that the licensing agreement with LeCroy (after all, Siglent is using their technology) will prevent them from being sold outside China and maybe some other Asian countries.Considering the functionaliy these scopes offer, and the surprisingly reasonable price for the LeCroy variant, I'm not sure there would be any dramatic savings when going with the Siglent version.And (most important): the LeCroy variant is in black!!!

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 06:51:49 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 18, 2014, 06:38:13 pmI don't understand the animosity in your response. I wasn't criticizing you in any way for an old price estimate. Just letting folks know the actual price turned out to be significantly more reasonable. What side of the bed did you get up from this morning?QuoteYou're very welcome. And I agree.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 07:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 18, 2014, 06:41:33 pmThough it may not be dramatic, it might still not be insignificant. I didn't have access to the pricing info for the SDS3000 you were using way back when, but I do recall seeing somewhere on their site since then a banner with about 21,000 Yuan Renminbi ($3,400) listed. And I was unsure if that applied to the 4-channel, 500 MHz (?) version they were showing, or the base-model (I can't read Chinese). If the former, that's equivalent to the WaveSurfer 3054, at almost 7-grand.Also of some interest, though Siglent was touting reaching the 1 GHz BW milestone, LeCroy offers nothing beyond 500 MHz. [Probably because that starts to encroach on their higher-priced models.]QuoteCool!Ah, I found it. Perhaps one of our members who isn't so woefully lacking in language skills as I can shed some light...

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 07:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mark_O on September 18, 2014, 06:51:49 pmNo anymosity. I just find asking if a guess which was made a long time ago was wrong after the facts a bit pointless. But nevermind.QuoteSo let's get to the important bit: who's going to get one and do a review?(Which reminds me: didn't LeCroy want to send Dave some scopes for review a long while ago? I guess it didn't happen.)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 07:51:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 18, 2014, 05:55:47 pmNothing has changed that I am aware of re SDS3000 series for western markets.LeCroy has an agreement with Siglent for western markets AFAIK.Quote from: tautech on May 27, 2014, 11:31:30 amThere are I believe new top end ( for Siglent) models in development, but how far advanced and close to release, I am not sure.Hopefully I will get a glimpse at these when I visit Siglent next month.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 09:50:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mark_O on September 18, 2014, 07:07:40 pmI'm pretty sure the price is for the 2Ch 100MHz variant (SDS3102). Even Siglent can't offer a 500MHz 4Ch scope with these specs for that price, especially not when they have to license the software.And $3400 for the 100MHz variant isn't really cheap when the 2Ch 200MHz LeCroy version is in the same ballpark. In black, and with LeCroy's support behind.QuoteMost certainly. I guess the previous WaveSurfer models were a bit too close to the more expensive WaveRunner Series, so they probably decided to increase the distance by placing the new WaveSurfer a bit under the older models (i.e. closed embedded OS instead of full Windows platform, limited decode options, max bandwidth 500MHz instead of 1GHz, much lower price).But the 1GHz variant doesn't make much sense from a technical point of view either, as probably most customers requiring that bandwidth also need much faster processing, more sample rate and more sample memory. And more advanced software.But it really does make sense, as in the past there wasn't interesting stuff below the WaveSurfer Series (there was the WaveJet 300A which was built by Iwatsu, a good scope alsthough a very old design and no longer competitive, and below that the WaveAce Series; both vastly overpriced). Now LeCroy has a solid offering in the range of the Agilent DSO-X3000, which is great.BTW: completely unnoticed, it seems they also replaced the old WaveJet 300A Series with a new WaveJet Touch:http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=469All they should do now is getting rid of the shoddy WaveAce scopes.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 11:55:11 pm
content: As expected, LeCroy Wavejet Touch is a rebadged DS-5600 Iwatsu scope from Japan.http://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ds/ds5600/ds5600_top_e.htmlI wonder what the waveform update rate is. And it is weird to have a 500MHz scope with only 1GSa/s per each channel. Come on, it iy 2014 year now.The 640×480 VGA display is also rather poor. It should be wide screen, as is common on many tektronix and Agilent scopes nowadays.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 03:06:54 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 18, 2014, 09:50:31 pmWhy guess? Just go to TaoBao and you can see the prices being offered for these scopes in China. The 500M 4 channel seems is listed at about 65k RMB. I don't know what negotiation might do to that price.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:59:13 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 19, 2014, 03:06:54 amJust checked and the SDS3052 (500MHz 2Ch) is listed for ¥51480.00 which Google says is $8383. Digikey lists the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3054 (500MHz 4Ch) for $6949.I don't think there's any money to save by importing the Siglent versions.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 05:06:16 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 19, 2014, 04:59:13 amI agree. I checked a couple other SDS3000 models on taobao as well (3024 and 3034), and they were both significantly more expensive than the LeCroy MSRPs. (over $1,000 more.)

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 05:08:29 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on September 18, 2014, 11:55:11 pmYes, the specs are rather poor for a 2014 scope. It seems its the same hardware behind as the original WaveJet 300 from 2007, just with upgraded sample memory and touch interface.Iwatsu makes great scopes but I don't think that this scope is going to cut it against the competition. Especially when Mouser lists the 350MHz model at $4514 and the 500MHz model at $5374.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2014, 07:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 18, 2014, 07:51:22 pmWell I got more than a glimpse, had quite a fiddle with one on display connected to a large flatscreen at the entrance to Siglent reception.The front panel controls were all labeled in English but the UI was in Chinese.No problem I thought, I'll just change the language setting to English to explore this scope further.Asked for assistance from my ever-helpful Siglent Sales manager but alas there wasONLY a Chinese language setting in the menu.So if you want a SDS3000 and need other than Chinese language, getting the Lecroy might be advisable.(did I say that)Or maybe the Lecroy firmware.Had a great day at Siglent, great to put faces to the emails.Thanks Siglent.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2014, 08:12:47 pm
content: Thanks for the photo, and the humorous anecdote. But where are the shots of the R&D lab?I'm glad they had the unit there on the box, for ready access to the touchscreen. If the big screen was used to control it, only folks like Wilt Chamberlain, or Kareem would be able to hit the Menu items.(He dribbles to System, drives down court to Utility, pivots on Memory... he shoots... he Stores! O0)

author: Siglent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2014, 03:39:15 am
content: welcome to visit Siglent!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 11:07:36 pm
content: I saw the LeCroy Wavesurfer 3000 and it looks like a typical LeCroy scope. Full of many stuff. But the waveform generator is limited. There is probably no modulation available.