One of 99 red baloons goes by... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 11:53:26 pm
content: Maybe the only place to post this story...USA Today: Blinken postpones China trip amid spy balloon row; US officials scramble to get rid of it...https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/02/03/spy-balloon-china-civilian-airship-updates-reaction/11177611002/“We know that it’s a surveillance balloon,” Air Force Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder, Pentagon press secretary, later told reporters.The war machine springs to lifeOpens up one eager eyeFocusing it on the sky991 red balloons go by

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 11:59:09 pm
content: yet again the yanks getting arsey because someone's doing to them what they've been doing to others for years

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 08:15:03 am
content: The original German lyric just has balloons, without colour (luftballons). They had to add the word "red" to make the lyric fit the rhythm in the English translation.I try to mention at least one useless fact per day.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:59:50 am
content: I've read somewhere they have not decided not shoot it down because of some political reasons, but because they do not know how to shoot it down.. And yes, Nena, it is 40y now..

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 10:35:49 am
content: Adding another fact of the day - Japan sent balloons equipped with a large amount of explosives and boobytraps directed towards the USA.Of course, that has been during WW2.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu-Go_balloon_bomb

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 01:08:50 pm
content: The politicians should heed the advise of the b side and stay in bed instead of playing with balloons

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 08:55:14 pm
content: Uncle Joe pops China's balloon overunpopulatedAtlantic.QuoteSeriously? The Chinese have their own space station. So I think they've been looking down on the parts of America not already covered by Google Earth for a long while. Whilst their cheap tech has been dialling home for decades.99 knights of the airRide super high-tech jet fightersEveryone's a superheroEveryone's aCaptain KirkJoe Biden...Quote

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:07:01 pm
content: They did it over Atlantic coast because of the missile landing in the ocean, worst case.. Good shot, indeed.I wonder what they will find, all encrypted, most probably..PS: I saw such a "luftballon" in person flying over the (now an EU) city I lived in late 70ties, as I can remember.. A bright star on blue sky slowly flying east direction..

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 03, 2023, 11:59:09 pmYeah. But to be fair, that's the game of all intelligence agencies everywhere in the world, so that's not specific to the US. Spying on others is a core activity and of course they'll do as much as they can to prevent others from spying on them. News at eleven.Sure the US sound more vocal about it, just like they are about others' military operations when their own is always moral and justified. But that's the case for every country in the world. Again news at eleven.And you can rest assured that what we can *see* is probably only a very anecdotical fraction of what is happening in terms of spying. Intelligence agencies tend to be discreet.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 11:27:09 pm
content: What is truely interesting to me is that apparently the Chinese have flown balloons over the US before but the US intelligence agencies (an oxymoron if ever there was one!) never told the public about them. This time a private person in Montana spotted this one and reported it on Twitter and that started the sht storm. I have to think that if they were a threat then the US Gov would have said something publicly before now and they would have done something to shot them down over the Pacific andbeforethey reached the US. It seems like this time, the US Gov is only reacting because the dolts in the news media are all crying that the sky is falling!OTOH if the Chinese optics aren't very good or if they wanted a much better view of something, then flying a balloon at 60,000 feet would be better than flying a satellite at 100+ miles (528,000+ ft) and probably a lot cheaper to boot.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 01:36:34 am
content: wonder how much all those planes and the missile that got the shot cost the american tax payer? If i was a mischievous chinese politician id be buying as much helium and balloons as i could get my hands on

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 01:46:55 am
content: I worry about the state of the US MIL. It took them two days and a missile and God only knows how many flights of aircraft to shoot down one balloon that for all practical purposes was standing still.The Chinese must be laughing their asses off.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 02:18:35 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 05, 2023, 01:36:34 amSeems like a viable strategy of attrition. Sounds like the Gaza strip, where anti-missile missiles vastly outclass ancient unguided rockets, but cost far more. Rockets could be filled with cow poo, but if the enemy spends a missile on it, its caused damage in it's own way.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 02:29:20 am
content: I just loved how it was suggested that ordinary people could shoot it down from their back yards. That thing 11 miles up in the sky...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 02:50:58 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on February 05, 2023, 01:46:55 amwell how would it be if some crowd of people got smashed when the solar panel or whatever on that thing fell down when it lost structural integrity 1 mile above a city after a missile attack? You don't know how it will get ruptured, it might just get damaged, and then its a huge sail basically that could carry it almost anywhere when its so high up. And they basically seem to be spying on underground objects that are dormant 99.9% of the time save for some people changing shifts.the chinese are gonna report that airman for punching out early friday. And that guy that took the unauthorized smoke break.Or if it falls on the interstate and makes a 100 vehicle pile up.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 03:41:14 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 05, 2023, 02:50:58 amObviously you've never been to Montana!

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 03:56:48 am
content: Is nothing safe from chinese copying?https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/02/pentagon-balloons-surveillance-midwest

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 04:07:22 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on February 05, 2023, 03:41:14 amUntil they have the grappling hook ship from startrek enterprise, I don't think we should be shooting down anything above land. What you need is another balloon with a larger payload that can anchor itself to the other balloon, then deflate it and bring the material down properly. Hindenburg II. Or Graff Zeppelin M1B. Then hopefully in 50 years we can have a declassified youtube video that says something along the lines of "the air force , in partnership with the good year corporation..."And the air force sky raiders that swing from ropes to disable drone balloon engines and cut it up with cutlasses . Suddenly the movie sky captain does not seem as ridiculous anymore.And also it can cause a hell of a power outage.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 04:52:03 am
content: I'm baffled as to why they didn't shoot it down before it got to the ocean, it would likely make it a lot easier to recover and analyze, and throughout a large portion of its trip across the country the population is so sparse that the chance of it hitting someone or even damaging their property is negligible.As far as possibly ticking off China, if we go with their story that it's a weather platform then it's already far off course and thus has either completed its mission or failed. Since it's a free flying balloon it's obviously expendable so they would have no legitimate reason to complain about it being shot down. Whatever it was intended to do, it almost certainly already did it and sent back the data.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 08:17:39 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 04:52:03 amYou cannot shoot a luftballon down with an onboard gun easily (if any on the board). You do not want shoot an air-air missile over an populated area.. In case of a miss and failing self-destruction it may fly another hundred miles and land in someone's house.. While flying east direction the only suitable place has been the east coast, imho..

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:09:14 am
content: I don't believe this was a misguided weather balloon.Neither a spy in the sky balloon.Probably more like a "let's see what they let us get away with" balloon.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:26:45 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 04:52:03 amThen the next story could be "oops we had a small radioactive source in there for experiment" and you have the recent Australian situation but far worse. Would be utterly stupid levels of provocation, but we're beyond that.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:47:35 am
content: It could easily monitor the US radar signals/patterns while tracking the luftballon over the country, or, while guiding the missile towards it. The data are relayed to a geostationary satellite on-line, and that's it..

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 08:38:03 pm
content: Quote from: mfro on February 05, 2023, 09:09:14 amSince China apparently didn't go great lengths at hiding it, to me it looks more like provocation than real spying. But who knows.Now the spying is all over the place in both directions, for sure, but in a lot less obvious ways for the most part.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: imo on February 05, 2023, 08:17:39 amWhy not? Put a bunch of holes in it and it will come down eventually. If it gradually deflates and settles to earth that is an ideal situation. It was flying at around 60k feet which is within reach of an F-15. The thing was massive as it could be seen from the ground so hitting it doesn't seem difficult once you're up there.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 02:40:49 am
content: I saw the same picture earlier today but that poster claimed that it was the last image the balloon captured while over SW Missouri!

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 03:08:02 am
content: close ups of the balloon just released by us intelligence

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 03:25:31 am
content: The risk is an escalation and china shoots down a US spy satellite when it's over china.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 04:10:18 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 05, 2023, 03:56:48 amMaybe the "It's a Chinese balloon!" is all a ruse and these ones are spying on Americans for the Pentagon/ATF/FBI/etc.Might still be made in China though.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 06:17:31 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 09:05:20 pmIt's the relative speeds of balloon and plane that makes it tricky, plus youreallydon't want to accidentally fly through any of the debris after you shoot it, either with guns or misslies.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 07:29:43 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 06, 2023, 06:17:31 amHow hard can that be with modern tech? The F-22 is state of the art, surely it has all sorts of high tech targeting aids. I also would not expect there to be much debris from a balloon, they could have made a strafing pass from hundreds of feet above it. Even if the plane were to fly right through the balloon itself I'd be shocked if it were seriously damaged. It's a balloon, not a rigid airship.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:35:15 am
content: They don't put cannons on modern jet fighters, as air war is fire and forget over ranges of 50 miles plus. Firing on a planet sized target point blank must have been somewhat outside of the curve for the onboard targetting system?Being British - and knowing how the MoD would have freaked out at the expense of using an expensive missile on a 'chinese magic lantern' - I would suggest flying over the baloon at Mac 2 and using the sonic boom to tear the envelope. But that's not Top Gun. Or even Top Missile?As for what the baloon was really doing, I await the Pentagoon's Instagram feed for forum analysis.Are we having fun yet?

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 11:52:48 am
content: They will find nothing special, my bet.. The "special box" (with SDR receivers, FPGAs and a satellite uplink/downlink board) has been blown up to small pieces by an RDX charge triggered on by a mechanical altimeter when below 40k feet.. The debris wind-blown over vast areas of Atlantic

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 04:52:40 pm
content: It's funny that the tittle of this thread is a song by the German band Nena. Wasn't it the American NSA, with the help of the Danes, who tapped German Chancellor Angela Merkel's phone a decade ago? Plus they spied on other European leaders.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 05:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 06, 2023, 07:29:43 amHigh altitude helium balloons arebig, and they are made from metallised mylar. Youreally don'twant big shreds of that getting sucked into your intakes, or getting stuck to the cockpit canopy.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 07:04:58 pm
content: So, the USAF sent up two fighter planes, one shot a single heat-seeking missile at the balloon gas bag; it deflated and the payload crashed into the ocean, depth around 15 m, while local airports were on a temporary stop to avoid mishap.Sounds like a reasonable workflow.Since this happened in broad daylight near a popular tourist beach, there is lots of documentation about the encounter.[edit: fix typo]

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 07:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on February 06, 2023, 09:35:15 amUm, the F-22 certainly does have a gun, at least according to General Dynamics.https://www.gd-ots.com/armaments/aircraft-guns-gun-systems/f22/#:~:text=The%20F%2D22A%2020mm%20Gun,high%20reliability%20at%20minimum%20weight.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 08:12:45 pm
content: But at say 60,000ft there is little atmospheric pressure and thus oxygen, so I wondered if the bullets actually can work including exceeding the aircraft's speed to launch forward.Looking at olderF-18 20mm Gatling gun systemthe plane is good to 37,000ft I believe but there's no specs on the ammunition's usable altitude.That missle appeared to hit low causing damage to the equipment, kind of defeats the purpose of all the hoopla to gain intel about it.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:07:02 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 06, 2023, 08:12:45 pmWhy would you think oxygen level/atmospheric pressure would have a negative impact on gun performance?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:14:00 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 06, 2023, 07:04:58 pmNah, they should have sent up Lawnchair Larry with a shotgun...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawnchair_Larry_flight

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 11:26:38 pm
content: Quote from: mfro on February 06, 2023, 09:07:02 pmCombustion requires oxygen. I see KNO3generates its own oxygen, so guns can apparently operate in space. I thought bullets would have been sufficient.This is a multi-million dollar fiasco, no need to save a few hundred grand I guess.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 12:16:31 am
content: KNO3 hasn't been used in gunpowder for about 120 years now except in antiques, usually muzzle loaders. Modern propellants use smokeless gun powder, usually a combination of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine. But yes, modern gun powder does contain it's own nitrates and they supply all of the oxygen that's needed for the combustion. Any gun that uses a self contained cartridge would work perfectly well in a vacuum or in this case a partial vacuum. The only difference would be that the fired bullet would have less air resistance and would travel further and faster than it does at sea level.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 12:43:55 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 06, 2023, 11:26:38 pmAll explosives (of the sort that burn) carry their own oxidizer, otherwise they wouldn't explode, they would just burn. You make a low explosive by mixing something flammable such as charcoal or cotton with a strong oxidizer, that's how they all work. They burn very rapidly due to having their own oxygen mixed in and the expanding gas they generate ruptures the container which provides most of the explosive force. Then there are high explosives, things like nitroglycerin, TNT and RDX. They don't burn, they detonate, explosively decompose so rapidly that it produces a shockwave, no container is necessary. Both low and high explosives will function perfectly well in a vacuum, or even under water.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 03:56:51 am
content: According to Wikipedia, the cost of an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile in 2019 was approximately $400k (USD).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 04:27:11 am
content: well columbians might find this information useful.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11715291/Colombia-releases-details-second-Chinese-spy-balloon-hovering-Latin-America.htmlI am surprised we don't have a global balloon popping party at this point. Should have done it on new years midnight.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:37:12 am
content: NORAD is a scam.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 12:55:03 pm
content: Woohoo some facts are coming out[spoiler: not really]QuoteBalloon image may not be to scale - Unless the Chinese have invented extra light heliumQuote

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 01:31:46 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on February 06, 2023, 04:52:40 pmNot sure about the Danes, but IMHO the whole government had been bugged and I'm pretty sure they knew about it. Plus there is that huge US embassy with likely a $h1tload of hidden antennas right next to the government disctrict in Berlin. I wonder why.Funny sidenote: Former chancellor Helmut Kohl knew decades ago, that all of his phones were tapped, so while on the road to some meeting, he directed his driver to drive some random route and stop at a random phone booth (literally everywhere to be found in the 80s) and then did his important calls. He even joked about it when meeting with communist politicians in his guest house. So they knew that he knew.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 05:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on February 07, 2023, 12:55:03 pmHydrogen is lighter than helium, and unlike helium it is renewable. Seems like a no-brainer for unmanned balloons where the flammability isn't an issue.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 07:58:05 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 07, 2023, 05:45:29 pmUh, weight is certainly a factor, but renewable? Does that even matter for fricking surveillance balloons? I certainly hope it never does.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 08:26:28 pm
content: Helium was once a virtually useless and unregarded gas. With the advent of cryogenics, superconductors, MRI machines etc. It is now a precious and limited resource.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 09:13:23 pm
content: Hydrogen fill is not an issue, just it means it is a little touchy at launch, but the extra payload capacity is likely well worth it, as it is anyway a disposable item, and having it with extra bouyancy, and the ability to cut away ballast as needed is a big advantage. Plus there is no shortage of the gas in ultra pure form, and if you lose one or two during launch the blast is not really bad, over 95% hydrogen just burns at the interface, and very fast. You might even still be able to reuse the payload, as all the flash will be rising up rapidly.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 09:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 07, 2023, 08:26:28 pmThe name "helium" comes from the fact that before any helium gas was found on Earth, the element had been noted in the optical spectrum of the Sun (helios in Greek).

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 09:47:31 pm
content: Rocket propulsion uses a shit ton of helium, although some claim party balloons are a huge waster. Can't take helium for granted. Nixie lives matter.I was going to calculate the balloon's buoyancy and then wondered how it controlled its altitude, that seemed to be the malfunction it was flying too low.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 07, 2023, 07:58:05 pmHelium is a very valuable substance, when released it floats out of the atmosphere and is lost forever. It is created through radioactive decay but that process takes a very long time. I haven't heard much recently but there was some panic a while back as our strategic helium reserves were being sold off, apparently we're going to run out at some point. Prices did go way, way up.Hydrogen on the other hand is plentiful, it can be extracted from water or hydrocarbons. We're not in any danger of running out. It's a superior lifting gas too, the only issue, albeit a serious one for manned vehicles is flammability.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:09:10 pm
content: When the importance of helium was first understood in the period between the wars, the only known source was helium trapped in natural gas deposits in Oklahoma and nearby.The American government imposed mandatory recovery and conservation, and refused to sell it to the Nazis for dirigibles. Helium Act of 1925, 50 USC § 161During the craze for deregulation (in the Clinton administration), this was replaced by the Helium Privatization Act of 1996, just as MRI was catching on.Public Law 104–273 was enacted as an amendment to the previous helium laws.110 STAT. 3318 PUBLIC LAW 104–273—OCT. 9, 1996Among other features of this privatization law:Section 8 is amended to read as follows:‘‘SEC. 8. ELIMINATION OF STOCKPILE.‘‘(a) STOCKPILE SALES.—‘‘(1) COMMENCEMENT.—Not later than January 1, 2005,the Secretary shall commence offering for sale crude heliumfrom helium reserves owned by the United States in suchamounts as would be necessary to dispose of all such heliumreserves in excess of 600,000,000 cubic feet on a straight-line basis between such date and January 1, 2015.‘‘(2) TIMES OF SALE.—The sales shall be at such timesduring each year and in such lots as the Secretary determines,in consultation with the helium industry, to be necessary tocarry out this subsection with minimum market disruption.‘‘(3) PRICE.—The price for all sales under paragraph (1),as determined by the Secretary in consultation with the heliumindustry, shall be such price as will ensure repayment of theamounts required to be repaid to the Treasury under section6(c).‘‘(b) DISCOVERY OF ADDITIONAL RESERVES.—The discovery ofadditional helium reserves shall not affect the duty of the Secretaryto make sales of helium under subsection (a).’’

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 01:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on February 07, 2023, 01:31:46 pmOccupied country don't have the luxury of so called sovereignty.Another funny sidenote : These balloon's effect on superpower as US impressed Zelensky so much, that after asking for German Leopard tanks, he specifically requested the singer "Nena" to contribute to the war with Russia.Yes, there are clues (military tactics) in this video on the balloon thingies, Pentagon generals need to watch too.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 10:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 04:52:03 amI believe China. It's a rogue weather balloon. It doesn't appear to have a steering or propulsion system. Look at its trajectory. It matches the prevailing wind direction, which is from the south west over the North Pacific, then north-west over North America.https://etc.usf.edu/maps/pages/4300/4374/4374.htm

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 10:53:19 pm
content: If that's the case why would they be asking for the wreckage back? Surely it's expendable. Seems like it also would have been in the best interest of international diplomacy to proactively reach out and let the US government know it blew off course and was coming, and share technological details of the payload. I suspect if we had something similar that passed over China they would make a big show of shooting it down and accuse us of spying.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 11:19:37 pm
content: I could make up LESS RIDICULOUS stories.Made up:The squirrels are 'spying' on my backyard. Occasionally engage in 'light' sabatoge...oh heck, I can't make up crap anywhere near to the ballo

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 11:22:13 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 08, 2023, 10:48:35 pmA couple of things. 1) Just because it followed the prevailing ind patterns doesn't mean that it's a weather balloon. Ask yourself, how many of these have we seen flying over China or any of it's neighboring counties?2) The news a few nights ago reported that US officials have already recovered part of the wreckage and they stated that there were explosives found in the wreckage. presumably self-destruct charges. I don't think that weather balloons typically carry self-destruct charges.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 12:34:20 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on February 08, 2023, 11:22:13 pmThe only thing I saw was the US Navy saying they were treating it as if itmighthave explosives as a precautionary measure. This is standard procedure.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 02:39:48 am
content: I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, personally I would be very surprised if it had explosives on board, that could be taken as an act of war.I'm betting this is far from the first of its kind. I suspect there have been numerous others like it, this one malfunctioned and flew much lower than intended which resulted in detection.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 03:00:12 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 09, 2023, 02:39:48 amIt also depends on how loose the description of explosives is and in what context.

author: lyxmoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 03:05:58 am
content: Oh, My God, US is threaten by a white soft-baloonsMust fight back by a F22 and 11 Carrieres, all air-force go~!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 03:51:09 am
content: well it seems that they have a bearing on the balloon command and control center, in Hainan. I want to see if the wreckage has equipment not characteristic of weather data.https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3850024-chinese-spy-balloon-part-of-larger-surveillance-program-us-intel/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 07:31:35 am
content: Quote from: lyxmoo on February 09, 2023, 03:05:58 amLet's fly a balloon with cameras on it over any other country, maybe Russia or China would be a good choice, and see how non-threatened they are. I bet either one would go ballistic. The balloon itself isn't the issue, it's the payload.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 08:12:02 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 09, 2023, 07:31:35 amC'mon .. here to enlighten you further .. Why spy on "banana" ? ...https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bYmoX3oHweMOk, on serious note, feel threatened ? Then US just has few minutes or even seconds to react if they want to use the balloon thingy.Read an article here ->Balloon With 3 Hypersonic Missiles Tested By China In 2018-> Chinese state-owned television aired footage of a high-altitude balloon droppinghypersonic weaponsin 2018.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 08:42:59 am
content: It's too big and obvious for it to be a spy balloon and why would they send a spy balloon to just go whether the wind takes it?I don't really trust what the US authorities say either. They could easily use this to stir up anti-Chinese sentiment and support for some form of retaliation.I think we should keep an open mind until, an in depth analysis and pictures of the load are in the public domain.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 08:49:51 am
content: Not sure if you are familiar with balloons but they are capable of being steered. The most basic ones, if you lower and raise height, you go into different wind current, like a hot air balloon, you can decrease or increase the flame to find a favorable wind current. It has a dual chamber, so basically you suck in extra air to weigh it down, and expel air to lift it up, and combine this with metro logical data to make a navigation path. The chinese balloon had an air pump and sat com, which it could use to find favorable winds maybe, via weather satellite.Similar to how a ship has a ballast.That's how people use balloons for transport. Its not reliable or very maneuverable, but they can take you where you wanna go. People use clouds for navigation since you can tell how they are being pushed and at what altitude.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 09:02:51 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 09, 2023, 08:42:59 amThats exactly what is happening, and just watch the recent diplomatic hostilities toward China for the last 36 months, all just to prepare the whole country for war by the warmongering neocons in Washington and Pentagon.Remember, US motto ... A day without war, is a day wasted.After Afghanistan war money dried up, now the MIC and US congress will rejoice, as bigger money is coming ... YAY !

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 09:54:16 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 09, 2023, 08:49:51 amIt's very limited. The fact it took the path of the prevailing wind shows there wasn't much control over it. If they want to spy, there are more effective and discrete methods than a giant balloon.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 05:15:08 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 09, 2023, 08:42:59 amYour open mind was probably why you said:Quote

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 05:16:31 pm
content: QuoteOTOH, a common or garden weather balloon in plain sight is pretty effective at being invisible. And deniable.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 05:19:01 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 09, 2023, 05:15:08 pmYes so what? The most plausible theory at the moment, is a weather balloon, but it might be something else.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 05:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 09, 2023, 07:31:35 amThe Soviet Union was not amused when they shot down the U2 spy plane in 1960, flying at 70,000 ft over the USSR.The apparent cause of this overflight was exaggerated bragging from Khrushchev about the size of the Soviet missile fleet, and the CIA was looking for missiles that did not yet exist.Unfortunate timing for diplomacy: a scheduled meeting between Eisenhower and Khrushchev days later was cancelled.There have been reports that the current version U2 was involved in tracking the recent balloon, since it could fly over it at higher altitude, but the shootdown was an F22 fighter.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 05:49:26 pm
content: That makes sense, the U2 can reach the altitude and it is probably the slowest manned aircraft we have that is capable of getting that high, but it doesn't carry any sort of weapons.An article in the local news today said the balloon carried electronic equipment capable of monitoring communications. Hard to say what's really true at this point though.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 06:07:33 pm
content: They should have spray-painted the entire balloonBLUElike the sky - Duh!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 06:41:40 pm
content: QuoteIt will probably be hard to say at any point. Suppose it turns out that it was a weather balloon (or, at least, carried only equipment a weather balloon would carry) - is the Whitehouse going to hold their hands up and say oops, sorry China? Or suppose it carried a smoking gun (communications data recorded and an encrypted comms link ready to send that home) - would we actually believe them if they told us that?A decade ago we might have given them the benefit of the doubt, but Snowden and others showed us they do stuff we would have thought far fetched had they been in a movie.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 06:50:19 pm
content: When the leaders of both countries stand up and express their outrage over some international incident, they are not talking to each other but rather to their own people in an attempt to make themselves look good. So you really cannot believe anything they say.Same with the statements from the military spokesmen. No way are they going to tell the full truth, because they don't want the "enemy" to know what they know.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 09:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 09, 2023, 06:41:40 pmDoes it matter? Either way it was in our airspace and we were within our rights to shoot it down. If I had built a giant balloon and released it to float across my own country I'd probably be in jail by now regardless of its purpose or what payload it carried.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 09:39:23 pm
content: well regardless of why its there you are supposed to notify NORAD that there is a damn rogue object in someones territory so they can notify the relevant authorities. If it lost control, how do you know it won't descend to normal plane level and crash into a jumbo jet? Why cover this up?These things are supposed to be like insured that if scientific equipment can cause danger to someone their supposed to like pay for the shoot down with the insurance, and also the monitoring time (so civilian safety authorities can make the decision if its more dangerous to shoot it down or to let it stay up).Hoping someone WONT find it when its already gone bad is super unprofessional. Kinda makes me think real weather scientists would not try to cover it up, because you could get shut down for trying to cover up international stuff. It's normal for stuff to malfunction, the normal procedure is to let people know something is gone haywire.I am sure you can see why the government was already super pissed off regardless of why it was there but because it was not announced ASAP.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 10:15:00 pm
content: I presume you are aware that research balloons are sent up all the time.You are perfectly free to launch balloons, model rockets, kites, RC aircraft, etc. The regulations are not onerous.http://www.arhab.org/

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 05:10:42 am
content: that is for payloads less then 15 pounds, this was the size of a passenger jet with a mass of 2000lb

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 09:19:34 am
content: I'd say a weather balloon does not require an equipment of this size.However the "the larger in size, the better" certainly fits the radio interception antennas. Plus - interception of communications is "easily" doale for huge areas, as shown by "the military".

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 10:43:27 am
content: Good point about it being big for a weather balloon, but I don't see why a spy balloon would need such a large payload either. I would have thought the smaller, the better.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 09:39:20 pm
content: Okay guys, the question is how much of an "airliner" sized payload was the Chinese balloon able to hold aloft? I attempted to calculate how much mass a pure Helium filled balloon can carry; assuming a circular diameter of 61 meters (200ft), an altitude of 18,000 meters, an air temperature of -65C and an air pressure of 100mB. But my results are justwrong? I must be missing something, like Arithmetic101. So are there any mathematical mega brains around here looking for a challenge? No prizes, just kudos

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 10:12:13 pm
content: The "airliner" comparison is a bit silly IMO, the payload wasn't the size of an airliner, it was the length of a small regional airliner. From the appearance, most of the length was a truss assembly carrying the solar panels. The central equipment module was perhaps the size of a car.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 10:26:44 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 09, 2023, 09:02:51 amIt's to prepare them for the fallout of a cold war due to possible regional wars or China's response to trade restrictions. A hot war is very unlikely, but just pretending trade will keep China docile in its regional disputes has become less straightforward after Ukraine. Not that Ukraine is directly relevant to China, it just showed the emperor of globalist peace had no clothes.The status quo is collapsing mostly due to US actions, but those actions are inspired due the realization that the status quo was dangerously unstable any way and building to a worse collapse.As for the balloon, it's just cold War games.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 10:30:10 pm
content: Scratch 2Not a balloon... a U.F.O. maybe?https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/object-shot-down-alaska/index.html

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 01:10:51 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on February 10, 2023, 10:30:10 pmWasn't that how the silly Roswell conspiracies started?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_incident

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 03:27:48 am
content: Quote from: Marco on February 10, 2023, 10:26:44 pmMeh ... the whole Yankeestan went baloney just for a stupid balloon, now watch as this becoming an ongoing trend with 2nd chapter coming recently just few hours ago in Alaska.Its all about distraction, smoke'n mirror or what ever you want to called it.Believe most of you are old enough to remember this ... you know the WMD thingies ..."US invaded a sovereign nations, killed and maimed a lot of Iraqis, and lost some of the greatest American patriots to ever live — all for a goddamned lie."

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 12:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on February 10, 2023, 10:30:10 pmI hope the mother ship wasn't watching!

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 05:01:09 pm
content: Our secret spies have spotted China's next move. Here is a secret clip of theirlight infantry robotic ground trooper.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 05:25:51 pm
content: wow, that is built exactly like the aliens in the 1996 movie 'the arrival' that can jump 50 meters in the air, including the helium they are full of (when shot, they vent gas). Basically gas bags in human form. Also known as politicians.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 06:59:03 pm
content: Wasn't the balloon that was shot down over the Atlantic (balloon #1) supposed to have propulsion? You can control direction somewhat by controlling elevation and hunting for useful wind direction, but this sounded like more than that. Any recent news?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 07:37:05 am
content: 3 down, 96 to go.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 09:28:13 am
content: Yes, another car sized cylindrical one. Those little green men on the mother ship are going to be really pissed.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64614098... I hope they find some wreckage soon!

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 06:54:25 pm
content: My information level (is lousy!):First few days, it was size of small car...Then, (in between updates on latest Jan. 6th gotcha), news professional sez, 'SECOND BALLOON is NOT size of three busses, like the first, red one.Size of three busses ?? That's a lot of potential.Certainly, they (Red Chinese) aren't thinking, of testing Joe Biden...anyone with a TV set, and, perhaps with, unfortunately, relatives / friends having elderly dementia,...anyone can recognize the force is not with him...he can't even figure how to manage a 'dignified' walk back off-stage.Maybe the Chinese realize, how cleverly the American Govt. IS pulling something off,...thats working.They didn't need a 'test', at least not in the obvious context. Maybe testing something subtle, on the side,...meanwhile 'pretending' to be sneaky...Ohyeah

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 07:07:18 pm
content: Now they're saying the last twowerebaloons, a couple of days ago they were saying they weren't -although I find it hard to see what else they could have been!Quotehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64614098

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 07:09:15 pm
content: Well I wonder if roller skate waiters are gonna make a comeback soon

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 07:21:06 pm
content: Is what's his name, Blinken, going to reschedule for a China trip, now that the recent 'small car' imports scandal has died down ?Go Blinken, Bliden, Blanken, whatever.(Can't believe they actually 'cared' about any civilian casualties fro some shoot-down).Probably just state: "The (Canadian) border is secure."

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 09:47:55 pm
content: Pic is balloon #2 drama and we're at balloon #4. Imagine the cost to pop these things then tell the press we're clueless about whose they are, what their capabilities are etc.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 10:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on February 12, 2023, 09:47:55 pmIn my reply #44 above, I pointed out:"According to Wikipedia, the cost of an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile in 2019 was approximately $400k (USD)."

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 10:30:24 pm
content: QuoteThats just the tool to do the job,add in the fuel cost,delivery drivers wages etc plus the usual military mark up i bet your closer to a couple of million per balloon

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 10:34:16 pm
content: Somebody needs to come up with a rapid fire ice splinter cannon to shoot these things down, so that the baloon puncturing 'projectiles' melt on the way down when over populated areas.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 10:37:04 pm
content: The costs of shooting the thing down aren't necessarily as high as you think. Sure, the cost of fuel and flying the plane is a significant sum, but if they weren't shooting anything down they would be doing something to practice, so really it's the cost of the missile. And, again, now and then they may think it necessary to actually test things, and what better chance is there than to actually use it in anger? So they've saved a bit of practice and a bit of testing.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 11:45:35 pm
content: Unless they're actually planning to do testing/training the $400k cost of a Sidewinder missile is pretty substantial. That's the cost of a nice house in some areas that they're using to take down a balloon. Seems like it would make more sense to use the guns to put a few holes in the balloon so it comes down gradually.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 11:49:29 pm
content: Those service members generally have 'safety' but that's relative, especially in an F22. I bet the odds of death or injury are higher than, say, a freeway commute. So there's that, plus familys. Also, the whole rhythm or pace of the events are not in the direct control, of the higher-ups...rather the timing is controlled by (balloon senders).

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 11:56:32 pm
content: QuoteEver seen the size of the defence budget?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 12:10:03 am
content: Serious question: Where do the balloons and equipment they carry end up after they finish the fly-over of the designated territory?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 12:38:30 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on February 13, 2023, 12:10:03 amAn inconvenient truth: "It's raining junk ..."https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/balloon-weather-environment-canada-radiosondes-ewaste-toxic-batteries-1.4897720At least the balloon is biodegradable.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 01:46:16 am
content: Quote from: pqass on February 13, 2023, 12:38:30 amI had no idea they launched 62 balloons per day. That's a lot of balloons! And to not pick up all the electronics ... I was under the impression we didn't need (so many) balloons in modern times due to advanced wx satellites. OK I was mistaken.Quote

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 02:06:20 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 12, 2023, 10:22:59 pmI took the price lightly because apparently they're using no warhead, but likely the cost is the electronics. Heat tracking IR likely useless on a balloon, it must be locked using the F-22 radar system. But I see AIM-9X have many options.Raytheon to build 565 AIM-9X Block II infrared-guided air-to-air missilesSilly china puts "weather" balloon(s) down wind, as if there's anything relevant to china weather and what weather data do they share?I think the Jet Stream at 60,000ft is the 1,000hPA?https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/700hPa/overlay=temp/orthographic=-98.37,26.89,424/loc=-134.772,69.280

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 02:41:32 am
content: Quoting the news, casually:"They've figured out the FREQUENCY, and so now, hopefully, the US NORAD can see those balloons, as the balloon frequency has been...dialed in...".What kind of $#@#$&*+ fools do they think...ohhfff I guess, they gots the frequency (tech stuff).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 02:43:50 am
content: I think they meant to say 'signature'And maybe its possible they did have to change the frequency of the radar to work with the balloons better. Fascinating if not technobabble.We should have seen this mylar threat coming. I started getting overrun with mylar bags from electronics distributors, in hindsight it was obvious that the threat does not end there. I had to invest heavily in boxes and organizers to counter it. Real cold war spending there on over priced charcoal and plastic boxes.BTW its not a bad thing, think about how bored the national guard were. Finally some action.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 02:48:58 am
content: Quote from: pqass on February 13, 2023, 12:38:30 amI'm surprised to hear they're using AA or lithium batteries. The radiosonde I found at a surplus place years ago had a battery that you just add water to activate, I think it was nothing more than some zinc plates.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 04:31:33 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 12, 2023, 11:45:35 pmThere's a training version of the sidewinder that costs about $210 k (same source as before, Wikipedia).

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 05:10:56 am
content: What ever the developing story goes, just buy Raytheon's stock !Glorious days ahead for MIC !

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 05:51:56 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on February 13, 2023, 02:41:32 amSo, Kenneth, whatisthe frequency?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 07:07:47 am
content: Quote from: helius on February 13, 2023, 05:51:56 am42 Hz.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 08:18:38 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 13, 2023, 02:43:50 amMy understanding is that the early warning system and similar get masses of data which has to be filtered out. They are specifically looking for fast-moving missiles, so slow-moving balloons are just noise that gets dumped. Now the balloons are a problem they've had to change the systems to include those in the 'not noise' parameters. Translate that to TV-consumer-speak and it comes out as either 'signature' or 'tuning' depending on target audience.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 01:01:43 pm
content: It looks as if they've found most of the equipment from the first baloon. It sounds as if the antenna array was pretty big. I wonder how much interesting detail FBI will let us see...Quotehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64633705

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 06:00:52 am
content: https://www.yahoo.com/news/illinois-hobby-club-fears-balloon-213904309.html

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 10:05:30 am
content: US gov. must be so desperate to distract US citizens, on the US terrorism blew up of Nordstream report and Ohio (Palestine) chemical nuking must be really serious to the deep state. Especially the Ohio chem nuke, CNN/MSNBC etc do not cover it at all, amazing.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 02:59:53 pm
content: Are you aware of the long history of US railroads suffering derailment of normal freight trains with hazardous cargo?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 03:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 17, 2023, 02:59:53 pmThe lack of reporting by the mainstream media smells like a coverup.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 05:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 17, 2023, 03:49:35 pmI don't know which mainstream media you follow, but the large US newspapers and US TV networks have covered the derailment and its aftermath since the event.Today's New York Times has more than a full page on the disaster, including continuing problems at the site and a (somewhat tardy) appearance by the EPA at the site.Perhaps UK media do not show interest in disasters in other countries?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 05:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 17, 2023, 05:06:04 pmYep - been on TV news off and on all morning long. Just showed a news conference that the Ohio gov. had.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 05:32:02 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 17, 2023, 05:06:04 pmI suppose not much reaches Europe. They appear to be downplaying the environmental damage, with all the dead fish an animals, but again, it might just be because we don't get much US news about that sort of thing here.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 05:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 17, 2023, 05:32:02 pmThe mainstream media in the US, reporting on a US disaster, certainly have covered the environmental damage, especially the obvious dead fish. Why do you think they are covering this up?I admit that US media discuss non-US disasters less extensively.Adam Smith once raised the question about how a sober, pious, and morally sound European would react to news of an earthquake in China with huge casualties, compared to news from his doctor that one of his own fingers would have to be removed. (Theory of Moral Sentiments, 1759, four years after the great Lisbon earthquake)“Let us suppose that the great empire of China, with all its myriads of inhabitants, was suddenly swallowed up by an earthquake, and let us consider how a man of humanity in Europe, who had no sort of connection with that part of the world, would be affected upon receiving intelligence of this dreadful calamity. He would, I imagine, first of all, express very strongly his sorrow for the misfortune of that unhappy people, he would make many melancholy reflections upon the precariousness of human life, and the vanity of all the labours of man, which could thus be annihilated in a moment. He would too, perhaps, if he was a man of speculation, enter into many reasonings concerning the effects which this disaster might produce upon the commerce of Europe, and the trade and business of the world in general. And when all this fine philosophy was over, when all these humane sentiments had been once fairly expressed, he would pursue his business or his pleasure, take his repose or his diversion, with the same ease and tranquillity, as if no such accident had happened. The most frivolous disaster which could befall himself would occasion a more real disturbance. If he was to lose his little finger to-morrow, he would not sleep to-night; but, provided he never saw them, he will snore with the most profound security over the ruin of a hundred millions of his brethren, and the destruction of that immense multitude seems plainly an object less interesting to him, than this paltry misfortune of his own. To prevent, therefore, this paltry misfortune to himself, would a man of humanity be willing to sacrifice the lives of a hundred millions of his brethren, provided he had never seen them? Human nature startles with horror at the thought, and the world, in its greatest depravity and corruption, never produced such a villain as could be capable of entertaining it. But what makes this difference? When our passive feelings are almost always so sordid and so selfish, how comes it that our active principles should often be so generous and so noble? When we are always so much more deeply affected by whatever concerns ourselves, than by whatever concerns other men; what is it which prompts the generous, upon all occasions, and the mean upon many, to sacrifice their own interests to the greater interests of others? It is not the soft power of humanity, it is not that feeble spark of benevolence which Nature has lighted up in the human heart, that is thus capable of counteracting the strongest impulses of self-love. It is a stronger power, a more forcible motive, which exerts itself upon such occasions. It is reason, principle, conscience, the inhabitant of the breast, the man within, the great judge and arbiter of our conduct.”

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 06:06:53 pm
content: And ... the noon news leads off with pictures of the massive train wreck with cars still burning, EPA, local people, etc.If it's a cover-up it must be the worst one ever attempted by humanity.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 06:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on February 17, 2023, 06:06:53 pmThat's whattheywant you to think.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 06:10:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 17, 2023, 03:49:35 pmIt was front page news on a number of local and national outlets in the US since the time it happened. What lack of reporting are you referring to?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 06:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 17, 2023, 06:09:32 pmWait! Maybe it the opposite! Maybe it's all fake news ...

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 07:00:32 pm
content: All that engineering, hotbox detector technology in place that did alert about the axle (video it was on fire) 20 miles before it derailed, others say the train tripped three hotbox detectors which had sent alerts to dispatch... and let's just keep rolling, almost at our destination, keep the boss happy.It will be interesting if the NTSB actually gets voice records, data logs because the cover up and corruption in the railroad industry has always been.They are all with stock at record highs, share buybacks etc. it's all driven by greed infested investors."Let's do a controlled burn of 1.1M lbs of carcinogenic vinyl chloride" "OK boss, seems like a good idea"

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 07:03:02 pm
content: The US rail unions are pointing this incident as an example of bad operations due to reduced staffing on trains.I've worked with the NTSB, and they are good at examining the evidence, but it takes longer than you might think.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 07:28:04 pm
content: The NTSB is very good, from reports I have read. It's the cover up, erasing critical datalogs and voice records that happens, as if a mob-run operation doesn't want to get caught. Rail has it's own rules and police even.The reduced staffing, poorly maintained equipment has been an issue for many years. 2013 Lac-Mégantic disaster "a lax safety culture at train company MMA and inadequate oversight by Transport Canada" and 10 years later not much changed and blame the crew not corporate for the shoddy equipment and exhausted engineer.The entire industry is fighting tooth and nail against putting any electronics on railcars. They remain in the 1800's in many ways. Who wants SLA batteries on each car, cabling connectors etc. say for electronic braking?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 07:31:11 pm
content: I see little value in electronic braking, air brakes are safer IMO, there's a reason they are universally used in large trucks too. Air brakes default to on, air pressure is required to release them and a loss of pressure will result in applied braking. It is failsafe and very reliable. Monitoring on the other hand is worthwhile and something that electronics could do. From what was said here though, monitoring did alert to the situation and nothing was done. That isn't the fault of the technology.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 08:02:50 pm
content: But the Lac-Mégantic (parked) train engine fire caused loss of air pressure and the brakes relaxed and she rolled downhill. "fail-safe air brake system" but I'm not sure how it really works. Yes the emergency brake was not properly applied but the train's brakes should have activated with loss of compressed air but the opposite happened.Something is driving the electronic braking issue that Obama moved forward on.Once you need power on a railcar and then that extra maintenance - in an absolutely brutal environment of vibration, moisture, outdoor temps., nobody wants it and Trump sealed that.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 09:23:20 pm
content: Well I don't know what happened in that specific instance, but I know that at least with big trucks a loss of air pressure causes the brakes to apply. I assumed trains work the same way but I've never actually looked into it. Certainly it makes sense for them to work that way.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 09:52:13 pm
content: Lots of stuff was done wrong in that disaster, which occurred on a small railroad in Canada.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_investigation_of_the_Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disasterSummary:One-man crewOnly one locomotive left running to provide air-brake pressureHe tested the brakes incorrectly and did not properly set handbrakesBad repair of locomotive 8 months earlier, which appears to have caused the fire on the fateful dayFire in running locomotive reported to fire departmentThe fire department shut down the locomotive following their procedure for a locomotive fireThey reported that to the railroad company, who didn't send the right people to deal with the brakes with that locomotive (only one operating before the fire) shut downLacking air from the locomotive, the air brakes slowly leaked out (the fail safe is that the brakes apply from local reservoir air pressure if the air pressure from the locomotive fails) and releasedWhen the fire department had extinguished the locomotive fire, the railroad employees assured them that the train was safe, so they left the siteThe train eventually started downgrade after the brakes released, but the track did not have block sensing so dispatch was unaware it was thereThe train hit 63 mph before entering a 10 mph curve in the town of Lac-Mégantic63 of the 72 tank cars derailed, igniting a horrific fireThe burning oil entered the town's sewer system, spreading like wildfire to the sewer drains all over townTransportation Safety Board of Canada released those findings, but is not authorized to issue judgments or assign blame and could only make recommendationsVarious sanctions were then applied to the company

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 09:59:05 pm
content: Interesting, apparently rail brakes are set up differently than truck air brakes. I wonder why.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 10:20:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 17, 2023, 09:59:05 pmNo: both "fail-safe" systems involve pressure reservoirs at the brake end, and a valve that sends front-end compressed air to the reservoirs, but applies the brakes when the front-end pressure drops or fails, using the air pressure in the reservoir to apply braking force to the brakes.However, these reservoirs can leak down eventually: one should not leave a train or truck for a long time without engaging the non-air brakes.In the case of trains, there is a long chain of air hoses down the length of the train to each of these valve sets in the cars.There is a pressure gauge/transducer at the rear end of the train that monitors the line pressure.The usual reference:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_air_brake

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 11:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 17, 2023, 10:20:08 pmTruck air brakes are (almost always) entirely different in their operation and dont have the local storage + application on falling pressure. The parking/emergency brake on a truck is usually the simple type held in place with a spring, released by positive pressure.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_brake_(road_vehicle)For the braking forces involved in a train it would end up heavier than the air "spring" railway type, so railways use their fancy/complex/finicky solution.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 12:26:05 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 17, 2023, 11:40:19 pmI stand corrected. I was describing the Westinghouse (WABCO) air-brake system for trains, but the action of the parking or emergency brake on large trucks also involves spring force on the brake that is counteracted by the compressed air source, so that brake engages when air pressure is lost. The service brake is activated by applying compressed air to a piston.Trains are much, much longer than trucks: I have seen freight trains a mile long, with extra locomotives in the middle of the train. Therefore, sending compressed air down the hoses to activate the brakes is obviously unsafe, hence the local reservoirs in each car. I mistakenly thought trucks used a similar system.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 01:07:50 am
content: Sending compressed air down the train to hold the emergency brakes released seems like a viable and sensible solution though. It makes sense that you'd need greater force to stop a moving train than spring loaded brakes could provide, but springs could hold a stationary train still. A parking brake mechanism on each axle that drops a pin into a mechanism to lock the axle seems feasible too.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 01:38:29 am
content: Traditionally, freight cars have a mechanical brake operated by a handwheel near the roof of the car, to complement the air brakes.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 09:20:07 pm
content: It seems the 'payload' is somewhere on the sea floor. Or floating towards Europe on the Gulfstream. Or lost forever inside the Bermuda Triangle. So far the FBI is letting on that it recovered, "some wiring,  a tiny amount of electronics". Pehaps a Rasberry Pi hot wired to a cell phone? Certainly no payload the size of an aircraft. Watch this space for moreevidence...https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/chinese-high-altitude-balloon-recovery

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 09:29:25 pm
content: I'm amused that the FBI spokesman referred to a "hot-air balloon".

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 09:44:21 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 27, 2023, 09:29:25 pmWell, this whole affair seems full of hot air indeed.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 10:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 27, 2023, 09:29:25 pmThis is why they put Helium in hot air balloons. And that's what I'm briefing the president. Operation Lead Balloon continues.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 11:29:48 pm
content: Appears to me to be a mix of two separate subjects...at first. But similar as general topic(s) both shine a light on 'Federal response'. Crises #1.) Seems to be the 99 Red balloons, while Crises #2.) Seems to be Ohio Train wreck.But the common aspect is 'Federal response' and all the various seemingly full-blown WHACKED aspects of the professionals...Nevermind the incompetent (unwashed) little people, these are the 'Delta Force', the 'A Team', (sorry, I stole those, labels, for drama).Train problems blame....(wait for it..) soon got around to Former President Trump being at fault. Red balloons subject couldn't be wrestled into some kind of form, that Trump could assume blame for. (Usually, you can kind of detect, when reporters keep squirming around; twisting tortuously to obtain some, any, kind of blame, for Trump. That, in itself, seems more of a quirk than one of the regular crashes experienced, periodically.Seeing all this, dual whacked out disaster, it's tempting to use to feed any appetite, for sarcasm...often by paralleling the two events,...or three.Witness:. "Salvage waste, from crash cleanup gets prohibited by EPA from being transported off-site.""Illegal Migrants request US govt provide Busses, to exit Ohio, and US territory, complaining about groundwater danger."Witness:. US Air defence states they "don't know what they are...", then claims "we don't know what many of them really were, but we shotem all down, successfully..."White House descends into 'confused state', expressing phrases like "You'll have to ask them "(NORAD Defenses), ...Stopping here. I couldn't make up anything to compare with this team of leadership...Some reader could expect a COVID related comment, about now, but...it's too much sarcasm for one week of news, sigh, so...

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 01:53:48 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 27, 2023, 09:44:21 pmIndeed - the whole thing has ballooned out of control.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 05:38:41 pm
content: @BravoV Thanks for the toon. Yep another $99 million dollar missile flies by... Sounds like a song we all know? It's no wonder Banksy's art piece of Girl with Balloon shredded itself. National security you know.@RJHayward - The Trumpster made our British News, handing out Trump Water to the residents of East Palestine. As if their drinking water could not be any more contaminated? The British media were keen to emphasise it was East Palesteene, just in case the casual listener was led to believe the Man from MAGA had joined up with Hamas.Is there no end to these ballooning metaphors?Cue Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 05:44:13 pm
content: The current-issue Sidewinder missile costs about $400k USD as I pointed out above.No need for an ICBM to take out a balloon.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2023, 10:52:23 pm
content: they probobly saved money because on the training exercise that was canceled that day they would shoot more practice missiles then that mission, and you get people joining the air force because of news like that anyway

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 03:43:08 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 28, 2023, 05:44:13 pmWell, do not drop the ICBM yet, not for the balloon though, but for the upcoming open war with China, as the current building up narrative toward the use of ICBM.Just watch what US main stream medias that are pumping out (disinformation, slander, lies) like crazy to Americans, to be ..brainwashed... err...prepared.... well informed of the "urgent need" to strengthen the march to war with China ... and Russia at the same time, for so called "freedom and democracy" of the world.Interesting time to live in.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 06:37:50 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 28, 2023, 05:44:13 pmNo need for a $400k Sidewinder either. Surely a burst from the 20mm autocannon on the F-22 would have done the job.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 06:40:35 pm
content: Ask Britons how they did in WWI against Zeppelins (Zeppelins full of hydrogen at that time, btw)..Not easy to shoot down a balloon with a gun..

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 06:46:44 pm
content: Quote from: imo on March 01, 2023, 06:40:35 pmZeppelins are HUGE and contain multiple gas bags, and they didn't have gatling cannons that could fire 100 rounds per second back then. The big balloon was vastly smaller than a zeppelin and the later balloons were much smaller than that. Tear a big hole in it and it will come down eventually. A gentle landing is ideal anyway.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 04:03:53 am
content: BravoV, reading your thoughts about American media (disinformation, slander...) getting to the point where (media), almost, making me physically ill, reactive. For example today, housemates playing that 'Gotcha' sounding gleeful like young teenagers seeing a 'booger', and endlessly, breathlessly gossipy...well, when you get right down to it; hate speech, as they delight and voices rise up 2 octaves, because NOW, Aam Schiff is, finally, gonna nail his latest 'smear' victim....yeah hate speech, (but don't get me started).Actually, just needed to comment that American's guilt gets assuaged by...latest bake sale, to benefit Ukraine. That means, I guess, we are in it for the long haul. Bake sales, to the ends of the earth if we have to!(sarcasm)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 07:54:49 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on March 03, 2023, 04:03:53 amSince you're American, let me tell you, whenever you heard or read the establishments start to spit out words like "freedom, democracy etc", especially at foreign relation matter, something bad is about to happen or already happened.Do you know, Americans are the most brain washed and propagandized population in the world ?Ever heard words like "authoritarian state" .. "surveillance state" ... "corrupted leader" etc , again and again in main stream medias, on countries say like China, Russia. North Korea, Iran and etc ? The MSM was actually telling the truth, but missed the tiny details. which is, it happened NOT on those countries.Watch this ...