EEVblog #1067 - Analog vs Digital Multimeters - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 08:49:24 pm
content: Are analog multimeters still of any practical value compared to digital?Only Dave can ponder that question for a half hour video...

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 09:30:59 pm
content: Much like how doing math without a calculator allowed people to develop better numeracy - like being able to estimate that 2345*4567 should be about 10,000,000 - maybe analog meters helped you learn how to measure and put that in context.After all, you had to know what you expected to see before you measured it, allowing you to set the meter's range correctly (and avoid damaging your meter).These days you can just poke and prod with no worries.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 09:33:05 pm
content: The AVO analogue meter I have is accurate to 1% fs DC and 2.24% fs AC and requires a 1.5 volt battery to measure AC this is to correct for internal losses. I don't use it all that often these days but as you say they do have some uses.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 09:35:42 pm
content: Is Dave referring to "Dave" in the third person an early sign of insanity?

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 09:38:30 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on March 25, 2018, 09:33:05 pmBut with 10kohm/V (or close to it) it distorts the circuit more than that, especially with todays low power designs, probably causing some malfunction.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 09:55:30 pm
content: A few things I like about my old analog meter (MF-47) is in the off position it can do a quick continuity test. You just pick up the probes and it beeps, no need to turn it on. The other thing is it never needs to be turned off. If you leave it in any other position (ohms) it only draws battery voltage when you are measuring something. The last cool thing is it can measure up to 2.5kv dc or ac (uses a different input jack on the front panel) but of course people will say its just not safe to do this but I've never had any trouble.

author: MartinX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 09:59:18 pm
content: The best indicator of what is best for me is that I have a collection of classic analogue multimeters on my shelf and they all work fine, but I never use them. At work we have some analogue multimeters and I have used them on the rare occasion when you want to monitor a voltage during fast burst transient testing or something like that, having no electronics can sometimes be an advantage.

author: mdijkens
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 10:41:17 pm
content: For my hobby I have a 100k, 60k and 10k DMM, but in my boat I still have this 60 year old AMM from my dad which is perfect there:- Never empty battery (biggest advantage for a meter hardly used)- Excellent to see if there's a voltage or if the battery is full or empty- Very short touch to see if there are big amps without blowing a fuseIt is so convenient if you just need basic functions and no precision

author: Grapsus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2018, 11:39:10 pm
content: I was definitely born after digital meters took over, so I don't have any emotional attachment to them.However I can see one advantage that Dave didn't mention: it's exactly like reading an analog watch, it's more intuitive and less distracting. When you don't need a huge precision, having to watch 3 or more digits puts strain on the brain which cannot stop from focusing on them because we're attracted to text. On the other hand, the position of the needle is a smooth and more direct, non verbal input of information.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 12:50:28 am
content: The analog meters reminded me fully manual SLR film camera bodies.When I use to go climb mountains I always took my Pentax K1000 SLR body. It was fully manual except for the light meter, so you could use in very cold temperatures and even if the batteries were completely flat. If it a Sunny day? f/16, 1/100th sec for 100 ISO slide film...My other Pentax body would chew through the 3xLR44 cells and then be completely useless after a few days, but the K1000 soldiered on. It was also great for astrophotography with long exposures not running out of battery juice too.

author: SteveK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 01:31:43 am
content: You cannot beat an analog multimeter for checking small DC motors. Using the ohm Rx1 scale, you can immediately see if the motor has dead spots (shorts and opens) at various angles by how much the meter jumps around. Shoot, you don't even need to turn the motor shaft by hand to check it too as most analog VOMs will spin the motor. It will even tell you if the bearings are binding. To a less extent, peaking or adjusting for a null is a little better on an analog meter. But yes, for every thing else, you cannot beat modern DVM.?And yes I am a gray beard -- that is if I didn't shave everyday.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 01:58:50 am
content: Agreed. I still use one for checking proper operation of ground loop RFID aerials / transmitters. I can instantly see the 10Hz power cycle pulsesand the higher frequency data carrier pulses plus their strength. Only an oscilloscope could do better.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:19:55 am
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on March 26, 2018, 12:50:28 amAnd reminded me the "joy" of 36 shots/exposures limit on each film roll, and painstakingly protect/shade/hide the camera if its raining or really wet when replacing the film rolls. Also have to wait maybe for days/weeks to see the results as you're far from civilization.For me, what a great riddance.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:44:47 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 26, 2018, 04:19:55 am..and welcome to world of a single dead 64GB SD card destroying all your holiday / trip / expedition / wedding photos.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:59:29 am
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on March 26, 2018, 04:44:47 amNo argument about that, shit happened to the stored media, so does film rolls.Maybe not for you, but for me its worth the troubles to carry few spares branded good SD cards.Or if you want go fancy, a portable gadget that can do SD to HD transfer for redundancy at the field, if the event are so important.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 06:04:22 am
content: Quote from: SteveK on March 26, 2018, 01:31:43 amthere was a thread somewhere in the forum regarding analog (gauge) vs digital (numeric) metersi also was born long after the digital meters revolution, however in high school we only used analog meters for measurements labs.it gave us a better understanding on how to perform measurements, where are the errors, how to take account for them.plus, as you say an analog meter WILL give you an indication of the ""scability"" of the parameter to be measured. That's why we still use analog pressure gauges at work, it's immediate to see if there is oscillation due to pressure too high, not so easy with only a readout.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 06:11:52 am
content: I guess visually the small bars read out display at the digital meter is not that "eye catchy" enough compared to a really contrasted view of long red needle swinging and swiping at quite large area with white background.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 07:44:44 am
content: Quote from: glarsson on March 25, 2018, 09:38:30 pmSometimes that is an advantage especially on power circuits, It also has a 10 and 40 meg ohm range not mant digital meters have that it is also water and vapour proof never seen a digital one of those.

author: Marvo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 08:17:08 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 25, 2018, 11:59:51 pmEspecially true for electrical installation (as opposed to electronic) voltage measurements. I often use analogue voltmeter because you don't get sidetracked by coupled voltages or 'ghost voltages' on circuits that are otherwise effectively isolasted. IMHO both analogue and digital testers have their place depending on the tests being performed.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 09:22:50 am
content: It seems to me that Dave forgot to mention an important point.The voltages shown on older vacuum tube equipment diagrams are generally those measured with a 20K/ V voltmeter and values measured with a digital multimeter may not correspond to those shown in the diagram.So, an analog multimeter still has an utility for repairing old vacuum tubes devices.Apart from that, there is no dispute possible, the digital multimeter is the best on all points.I bought my first Fluke 73 in 1993 (still using it !!!!) and never came back to the analog multimeter.

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 09:50:25 am
content: Where I use to work, the company purchased some fluke 77's and the AVO model 8 was relegated to being the door stop.Going further back down memory lane, the AVO model 8 with it's dodgy cut out was standard military issue, while they were ok! to use on a bench. Try using it to measure voltages in helicopter avionics bays, it was the most unsuitable meter to use because of it's size and positioning requirements.Even on a work bench it tends to dominate your work area unlike a hand held DVM.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 10:06:36 am
content: This post gets my vote:Quote from: mdijkens on March 25, 2018, 10:41:17 pm

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 10:14:57 am
content: Analog multimeters are not safe at all, never use them on high energy circuits.....

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 12:03:45 pm
content: I still use my ancient Micronta FET input analog meter fairly regularly. Sometimes seeing how a value is moving is more important than measuring it to 3 D.P.s.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 02:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on March 25, 2018, 09:38:30 pmYou need a VTVM.Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 03:37:29 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on March 26, 2018, 12:03:45 pmHave you actually watched the video? The part where Dave shows that most bargraphs in digital multimeters (well, at least those shown in the video) are both faster (no mechanical inertia) and more accurate in displaying value changes and fluctuations?

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 03:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on March 26, 2018, 02:35:24 pmNo. I have no use for any analog meter.Analog meters are at an disadvantage in all use cases.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 03:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on March 26, 2018, 03:48:45 pmThats a joke son. Vacuum Tube Volt MeterSent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:00:27 pm
content: A previous poster made an analogy (no pun intended) to an analog watch.Analog watches allows to develop intuitive visual method to determine relative time for certain events. For instance, if the hour hand is almost vertical, and the minute hand is to the right of it, it means that I'm already late for my lunch hour.It is similar with analog meters. Like nulling a circuit.But other than that, DMMs win.

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 25, 2018, 11:59:51 pmThis is basically what I wanted to say as an "advantage" of analog. I think they are good as a learning tool because, given a circuit with typically 1%-5% tolerance components, they give you a tangible understanding of what 1% "looks like". Also, given the fairly low voltage-range resistance, making a habit of thinking about that resistance makes you a better engineer. Sure, 10M? won't affectmanycircuits, but when it does, you'll at least have a chance of remembering.That said, I don't use analog really at all. At work, I use a Fluke 27V for pretty high accuracy to track long-term drift in the field, but it tricks me into trying to get +5.000V out of the adjustable voltage regulators when ±0.2V is acceptable, and ±0.02V is plenty accurate enough for adjustment.I think if digital meters were "classy", I'd be more inclined to let the analog meters go, but an old Simpson is a work of art whereas even a Fluke looks like a chunky kids toy. For instance, if the LCD were rendered in a crisp, readable typeface rather than a pretty-good built-for-cost LCD 7-segment, I'd take notice.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:28:20 pm
content: That is true, Fluke 87-V display sucks donkey balls big time.Analog displays have charm and charisma that digital displays lack.As to use cases for representing information in analog form, next time you get in your car look at the speedometer.

author: xani
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:32:45 pm
content: That thread got me thinking,whymost digital meters are meters are soo poor on display front ?It is basically "a number" for cheap ones, then "number + bargraph" for anything more expensive and only real change is when we get to top of the line >$300 multimeters.Graphical displays are cheap, MCUs are basically free (and a ton of performance per mA), why we don't have affordable multimeter that have say a histogram of last few seconds as an option for display, or simultaneous display of various other parameters of signal ?Instead of "look, the bargraph is wobbling" the display should just show "12.103v +/- 100mV with base frequency of 100Hz", maybe even replace a bargraph at bottom with a box plot

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:51:46 pm
content: Some of you need to get a room. Please.Function over form any day of the week.

author: MisterDiodes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 05:03:10 pm
content: There is something Dave never mentioned (Or I didn't see it): Sometimes DMM's will really get fooled by an AC waveform at higher crest factors - and that's why we still use the very good Simpson 260's for checking various AC motor drive systems, used right along with DMM's. In use every day, because the analog meter movement itself can do a better job of RMS conversion on some distorted waveforms - at least for what we need. For instance - the Crest Factor limit is typically only 3~6 for a Fluke 87 and only 1.5 at the extreme ends of the AC scales. We use Simpsons when the crest factor is getting upwards past 6, at least for some tests. At this point the high crest factor renders the "TrueRMS" DMM useless.I would point out that there is no such thing as a perfect meter for -every- application, so use the right tool for the job.The graphic nature of the analog gauge registers information so much faster on a human brain, and that's why most aerospace cockpits are designed with a dual analog / digital type display readout.Some of our custom designed test equipment is built the same way: with a high end low-noise input amp and MCU control/ logging system, but the operator readouts use an analog meter display. It's much faster and foolproof for the operators to glance at the gauge and know if a certain test is within spec or not - and a real analog mechanical gauge is still used if we're in an environment where we can't have the relatively huge EMI of any "graphic display" panel near the sensitive test area.Here's another example of an "Analog" meter display built with a more modern hardware front end. In the case of a null detector a digital display would be a big disadvantage. You need to watch the needle to finesse the center zero position when you are getting a measuring bridge in balance - at virtually true zero current flow (at least down to a few 10's of fA):https://www.tegam.com/shop/resistance/avm-2000/avm-2000-null-detectornanovoltmeter/

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 06:08:01 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on March 26, 2018, 07:44:44 amMost of my DMMs can measure over 40M, and some can measure conductance (1/ohm in siemens) There are many DMMs that are waterproof. Dave has a video where he goes swimming with a Fluke.Hij have a nice collection analog meters (15 of my nicest and oldest are on display in the livingroom)I use them sometimes for fun but you must be real masochistic to still use them. About seeing fast the value like on an analog watch....yeah sure, with enough light, a magnifier and a sliderule to calculate how much volt one division is. And then the meters that let you gamble the scale is 10M fulkl scale or you need to multiply the reading by 10M. I have a meter that has a 25 range but no 25 scale.Example, with your face straight in front of the meter due to parallax error and the probes almost out of reach because of that you see the needle at the 3rd division between 2 and 4 in the 10V scale. There are 5 divisions so 0.4V per division. So you measure 2 +1.2 = 3.2V. Yes, very quick and easy in use such a meter.The only thing I prefer an analog meter for, is as null detector. I have several and some do 1 uV full scale.Adjusting things for peakvalue only if you have cheap slow DMMs. My digital benchmeters are much faster than any analog meter and with much more resolution and without loading the circuit. Most have a >1Gohm input impedance. (my favorite 10G including the 10V range.) They are all TRMS some of the have a 1 MHz bandwith. Compare that to the few hundered Hz the average analog meter does (and not even close to RMS if the signal is not a perfect sinewave.)So, I realy love analog meters like I like my 1936 Austin 10 (on a nice summerday on a quiet road, not for every day use)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 06:17:18 pm
content: Popular good DMM say like Fluke 87V currently at Amazon is at $387 compared to ...... Simpson 260 in 1946, with today money ...Wonder what hobbyist bought back in those days ?

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 06:19:46 pm
content: My Hioki DT4282 has a slow measurement feature.|It's normal measurement update rate is 5 per second.I have 3 other DVM's they all bring different functionality to the bench

author: xani
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 07:27:57 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 26, 2018, 06:17:18 pmApparently it is still produced (well, a revision) and on sale for only $279.95https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002R6MWL0/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 07:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on March 26, 2018, 04:00:27 pmIt's not intuitive at all if you don't use it. I transitioned away from quaint angled sticks in the second half of the seventies, both for time and multimeter purposes.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 08:31:06 pm
content: I still sometimes use an analog one - it's good enough in many cases and batteries last very long. No need to turn on the meter, just turn on the brain.The early and and many cheap meters have quite a high burden voltage on DC-amps (usually 200 mV + fuse) - many of the analog meters were better in this respect. On the analog meter I have it's 60 mV. However some of the advantage can come from not having the fuse.However already with AC amps it's usually a problem with the analog meters - though I once have used a rather fancy one with a current transformer for the AC current ranges. AFAIR it had a 60 amps or so AC amps range.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 12:20:20 am
content: Quote from: oldway link=topic=106744.msg1462199#msg1462199e date=1522059297What do you imagine we used before DMMs?The AVO 8 & the like were very well engineered, with large clearances, heavy insulation, & thick Bakelite cases.Because they were large, meters of this class were not used handheld.Instead, they were placed on the floor, rested on a "Tech's stool", or hung up by the handle.In any case, the operator could be a metre or more away from the meter & still read it clearly, which reduced the possibility of injury in the very unlikely event of the meter case being breached.In more than 40 years working at high power Radio & TV transmitter sites, I only saw one AVO 8 which had been "blown up".The Bakelite case was not breached, the movement was clearly charred, the dial glass was cracked, but notshattered.DMMs are mostly used handheld, & have lightweight cases, so your chances of escaping injury are that much less.PS:- sorry about the ( sort of) double post----I was sure the iPad had lost the first one, so I rewrote it.This is a better version, hence it's renewal.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 12:48:12 am
content: I've been screwed once by DMM's.Repairing a CNC machine, I read good mains voltage both sides of a fuse terminal block- where an analog multimeter read zilch on the load-side. Fuse tested good.It was leakage currents from coolant mist that gave me a good reading on the DMM. In the end it was the fuseholder (not fuse) that failed, the spring fatigued and open circuited.Some DMM's have low Z volts, to prevent ghost voltages likeFluke 114,116, 117for very good reason. Also good working on cars, there's usually water under the hood on connectors etc.An analog meter or LowZ is only thing I use troubleshooting outdoors.But everybody here waaaa about about accuracy, it's not always what you need.

author: Andrey_irk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 02:06:51 am
content: If you were to measure say 20 different values in a row what meter would you prefer? I bet you wouldn't fancy multiplicating and dividing every time in order to get a result.If you had a good DMM you'd be able to workaround its "quirks" in most of the cases (need a low input resistance? add a resistor for god's sake), but if you had only an analog meter you wouldn't.Finally, if I suspect something else present on the rail apart from DC I will use a scope rather than poke around with the needle's movements.Analog meters are obsolete. Period.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 02:23:56 am
content: Quote from: Andrey_irk on March 27, 2018, 02:06:51 amSo is my old 486 computer running Windows 3.11 - but I still can't type faster than it can handle.And without a battery, you can still use an analogue meter for everything except resistance measurements. A DMM without a battery makes a poor wheel chock.There's also this:Quote from: mdijkens on March 25, 2018, 10:41:17 pmIf you suspect there is a potential for a very heavy current flow, you can make a glancing touch with the probes of an analogue meter - and the initial needle velocity will give you a qualitative indication. If you know the current might be under 1A or over 15A and you are on a 10A scale, one quick touch will tell you which way it is going.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 06:23:19 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 27, 2018, 12:20:20 amI think you do not know at all the subtleties, or especially the weaknesses of the Avo 8 .....First of all, I learned to drive with my father's Simca Aronde: this car had no seatbelts, no airbags, no ABS and was not crash tested ... and yet, everyone was driving with such insecure cars.Safety standards have changed and it would be forbidden to drive today with such a car.With regard to electrical safety, it's the same thing.So to argue that we used in the past analog multimeters on high energy circuits, it's simplisly stupid.You can't ignore actual safety rules.....The avo 8 is very dangerous because it is the same terminals that are used for both the voltmeter and ammeter function .... an error can easily be made.In addition, the so-called cutout protection does not protect anything because:1) the breaking capacity of this cutout is very low2) the protection is activated by the needle arriving at the end of scale stop ..... but if you are in range DC amps and you measure AC current, the needle does not move at all and does not cause the opening of the cut out.Then, the principle that there is no danger because we do not hold the meter in hands is totally wrong and shows that you do not know anything about electrical safety.On a high energy circuit, the risk comes from creating an arc that becomes explosive.This arc is formed at the contacts, that is to say the test probes held by the operator and ionised air let the arc to close between phases with consequences of serious burns, damage to the eyes and a risk of electrocution.With high energy circuits, every simple error have very serious consequences and it is not for nothing that the digital multimeters have special fuses with high breaking capacity in the current inputs.

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 06:45:38 am
content: The Simpson 260-8p cost £430.80 new. Safety features. Transistorised relay (actuates in milliseconds) for overload protection but not on all ranges.10amp range unfused. There is a cheap 1amp 250v quick blow fuse fitted and a busman 2amp 600v high energy fuse fitted.Needless to say the manual and data sheet have no cat ratings listed and people used these type of meters on industrial equipment.Anything goes wrong you haven't got a leg to stand on.The standard is to record data, to 3 significant digits not decimal places. Analogue meters at best is 2 significant digits and if you are like me on your way, to 60 your eyes are too f**ked to read the scale with sufficient accuracy.Most hand held DVM have a battery life of at least 100hours (oled and graphic excluded). I suppose that is a real hardship that you have to a spare battery around with the spares for your other battery operated equipment.My first meter I owned was a Russian analogue meter, my second was a fluke 8020 (1982) after using that fluke I even refused to use analogue meters.Over the years since 1982 DVM have become better and more versatile, hence more useful. Analogue meters have not really changed.As Dave said they a few niche uses but they are niches and not for use as a general purpose everyday instrument.The DVM is one of the best tools and it's good enough to be classed as a tool.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 07:34:58 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 26, 2018, 04:28:20 pmdon't you love it when the speed and RPM gauges are in sync?i found it to be extremely pleasing in the previous 500 abarththe late 2016 restilyng with the new display (of questionable quality)? not so much.I also found it extremely pleasing to look at the "morphing" gauges that change the background if the car is in eco/sport/electric/whatever mode (see new renault/audi/volvo/lexus) to display the same thing in different contexts

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 07:45:03 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 25, 2018, 11:59:51 pma) Sometimes youneedthose digits. Worrying about whether they're accurate seems natural to me, not an "obsession".b) What's stopping you from buying a DMM with less digits? They exist.Maybe you could paint over the last digit on screen with Tipp-Ex (or equivalent) if your bother you.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 07:58:06 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 27, 2018, 02:23:56 amSure, but any professional writer would soon replace if it required multiple weird key combinations to get anything other than basic letters of the alphabet (eg. parenthesis or full stops...)Quote from: Brumby on March 27, 2018, 02:23:56 amLuckily for us, DMMs have battery indicators to tell us in advance when that's likely to happen.Plus: They're smaller and cheap enough that we can own more than one without taking up the entire bench. The chances of multiple batteries dying simultaneously is very slim.There's also this:Quote from: Brumby on March 27, 2018, 02:23:56 amYou can bridge the fuse in your DMM. A quick touch of the probes will send the bar graph over to the right just like an analog meter!

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 08:01:48 am
content: Car speedos and aircraft instrumentation are designed so a pilot or driver can take a quick glance and roughly see if everything is ok or not. So they are not distracted form their main task.In fact on older instrumentation we had to paint green, yellow and red bars around the dials so the pilots would know the instrument was showing safer operating area or not.Multimeters are measurement devices.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 08:17:22 am
content: Quote from: Cnoob on March 27, 2018, 08:01:48 amAgreed for aircraft. For cars you do not need the speedometer to get a rough measurement of your speed. Just look out throug the windshield!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 08:20:46 am
content: Quote from: mdijkens on March 25, 2018, 10:41:17 pmAmazingly enough: You can power a digital meter from the boat battery itself, no need for a separate battery to power it!If your analog meter falls in the sea, will you go looking for another old meter or will you install one of these for $2?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 08:29:54 am
content: Quote from: glarsson on March 27, 2018, 08:17:22 amThe same thing could be said for aircraft.Look out of the window: Are the houses getting bigger when they shouldn't be? Yes: Increase engine power.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 08:48:28 am
content: No. Clouds, darkness, fog, etc make it impossible to judge speed correctly. You can still safely fly an aircraft if instruments are used. The same can not be said about a car.

author: mdijkens
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 08:50:51 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 27, 2018, 08:20:46 amOf course I have a power monitor in my boat that monitors both batteries voltage, capacity, wear and in-/outgoing amps.But that doesn't help you much if you need to fix something. If something doesn't work anymore you want to be able to figure out where the problem is

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 09:02:09 am
content: Quote from: mdijkens on March 27, 2018, 08:50:51 amRight, but you could use one of those to look at voltages. It meets your requirements of "never empty battery" and "Excellent to see if the battery is full or empty".You could even put it in a box and attach a couple of multimeter probes if you want it to look pretty and/or be waterproof.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 09:04:45 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 27, 2018, 02:23:56 amA newer computer / OS might help here. With Windows 8.1 you can sometimes be fasterBack on Topic:The bar graph display just flickering on the last segment as Dave showed is not a reliable response. This can also happen just at the boundary. So even of the needle movement is just visible this is still more useful than just one segment flickering. So in this respect many of the digital meters still don't work that well, because the bar graph resolution is too limited.

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 10:03:45 am
content: QuoteSo you don't take a quick glance at the speedometer when you need to reduce speed to obey a speed limit!It is also illegal not to have a working speedometer in your car if your car is newer than 1935ish(uk law.)

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 10:53:01 am
content: When I look at the speedometer the goal is not to get the answer "about 30km/h". The goal is to get an answer that can be used to decide if any speed correction is required. The answer 30 is acceptable and 32 will require correction. For this the analog speedometer is not the best option. The calibrated digital readout is what I use.Don't know what UK rules about working speedometers have to do with this question.

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 11:17:51 am
content: You have answered it. You need a working speedometer to make speed corrections.Originally I was stating you can not liken an analogue speedometer to a multimeter.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 11:22:53 am
content: I never argued that the speedometer should be removed, broken or something similar. End.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 12:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on March 27, 2018, 06:23:19 amAn unbiased observer might think that using the things every day, for decades, often in "high energy" circuits would give me a pretty good handle on its subtleties.QuoteIn most Countries it is not, & you can still drive such old vehicles.In any case, none of those things, except perhaps ABS adds one bit to the primary safety of the car, but only come into play if the driver does not avoid a perilous situation.QuoteAs I pointed out, the AVO was inherently safer because of very heavy construction & proper engineering, whereas DMMs are handheld devices with quite flimsy construction.CAT ratings were introduced after the introduction of DMMs."Safety rules" are more to do with how the testing is done, rather than the rating of the testing device.QuoteMany thousands of these instruments were used over decades without injury, mainly because the people using them followed correct safe operating procedure.QuoteSo now I'm both stupid&know nothing?Like all those thousands of other Techs, EEs, & Electricians that used AVO 8 meters?Do you often have these feelings of superiority?QuoteIn most cases, it is possible to clip the probes in place & not have to "hold them".OK, perhaps in the high energy circuits we tested it was usually possible to isolate the incoming Mains, connect the meter, then re-apply the power.QuoteThe trick, (which isn't that hard), is to not make "simple errors").

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 12:56:40 pm
content: QuoteYou implied you did not need a speedometer.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 01:07:10 pm
content: No. I wrote that to get a rough estimate of the speed you just look outside the window, something you are supposed to do anyhow (uber drivers excepted). If you need a more exact speed you obviously look at the speedometer. The argument was that the speedometer on a car doesn't have to be designed to give quick rough estimates compared to an environment where no other means to determine speed might not be available, such in an aircraft under certain conditions.

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 01:16:13 pm
content: How boring would a lab be with only digital test gear.........each has its place in my Lab, and I will never agree with anyone trying to tell me Digital meters are better/faster for Nulling or Peaking anything.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 02:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 27, 2018, 12:32:53 pmWhen it comes to safety, you do what you want, you are the only one responsible for your life.By cons, on this forum, you are in a public space and it is not acceptable that you publicly give advice contrary to safety.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 02:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 27, 2018, 12:20:20 amYou used what was available, obviously.That didn't make it safe though.

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 02:46:03 pm
content: QuoteI stated the opposite that a analogue speedometer is a speed indicator as opposed to a measment device. Also I did not make a direct reference to air speed indicators. I refered to aircraft instrumentation. In fact I was thinking of engine services. Reason why I mentioned paint bars around the dials.

author: TJM
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 03:34:59 pm
content: Quite funny is that almost everyone assumes analog multimeter always has low input impedance. I've just checked the specs on my old Meratronik V640 which I used for years (those were extremely popular here in Poland and lots of them are still in use even today) and at DC volts it is rated at 100M on all ranges (1.5/5/15/50/150/500mV/1.5/5/15/50/150/500/1500V) while on AC volts its rated at 10M below 150mV and 100M from 500mV range up to 1,5kV.I've used quite a few analog meters in the past (I got my first DMM in very late 90's and it was extremely expensive, also complete garbage compared to the V640) and even an old Russian meter I bought as 10years old kid used some weird custom hybrid IC as the input stage to get at least 10MOhm input impedance on low ranges.

author: akimmet
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 05:00:41 pm
content: The only time anymore I use an analog meter is when troubleshooting automotive wiring. Cheap DMMs do a poor job of displaying intermittent connections. A quality meter can do a good job of it, but only if you remember to disable auto ranging. That can be frustrating to forget when you are underneath a vehicle. However, for this purpose I suppose a 12V test lamp is probably a better tool for the job.There is a small unintended benefit to using an analog meter outside, no one is interested in stealing it. The same can't be said about even those cheap free harbor freight DMMs.

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 07:04:30 pm
content: In Poland we have one analog multimeter which gained a status of a legend. It's a MeraTronik V640 (known for the Western Bloc as a Conway model 639 and Marconi TF-2650 FET Multimeter). For sure, there were better multimeters at that time ('70s and '80s), but not in the Eastern Bloc. What may still impress in it is the 100M\$\Omega\$ input resistance (full range DC, and AC from 500mV range), 1500uV range, and capability of measuring AC signals of up to 100kHz without a HF probe (according to manual the range was to 20kHz, but in practice it was much more), 100M\$\Omega\$ ohmmeter range (half-scale, so 10G\$\Omega\$ full-scale).@oldway - when it comes to the safety, my opinion is that awareness of danger is more important that safety of the device itself. The more the device is "safe", the less cautious operator is. So I don't really like the government/companies think "for me". Then I don't like saying "you should never use it", I'd rather say "you should be cautious while using it". When it comes to the cars - you may still drive a car form '20s if you like. Old cars (mostly with 2-stroke engines) were only banned in some big cities for the emission standards. Some cars were banned due to safety reasons from sale, but it happened when they were in-production.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 12:15:41 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 27, 2018, 02:35:40 pmNo, but adherence to safe usage rules did!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 04:02:52 am
content: Quote from: oldway on March 27, 2018, 02:13:10 pmIf you had said :-" I do not recommend analog multimeters for use on high energy circuits.They were used safely in the past by qualified people using rigorous precautions, but because they do not include the protective systems used in modern DMMs, they are not suitable for untrained people".I would have passed, & not replied.Instead, you wrote:-QuoteA blanket statement, which although it may be intended to protect beginners. is patently untrue.You then go on to introduce "red herrings" about cars,etc.Later, you posted the following:-QuoteStandard procedure with the AVO 8 is to set the "DC ranges" switch to"AC, & the " AC & Ohms switch" to "DC", prior to use, & only then, set the required mode & range.Even if I conceded your point about the AVO 8, it really only applies to that instrument, as not all analog multimeters use the same terminals-----I have seen, & used an analog meter which not only had separate "Amps" terminals, but had a mechanical interlock to prevent setting it to a voltage setting if there were leads attached to those terminals.I can't remember who made it-----maybe Metrix?QuoteAs far as I remember, without a manual in front of me, the cutout is just there to protect the movement, just as other meters use diodes.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 06:37:51 am
content: Quote from: tzok on March 27, 2018, 07:04:30 pmYep.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 09:59:42 am
content: There is no choice to do between safety of the multimeter, awareness of danger and user attention, all are equally important.Accidents happen, even with the most cautious people .... that's true in all areas, not just the measurement on high-energy circuits.As long as measurements are made on low energy circuits, for example 220V protected by a 25A circuit breaker, the consequences of an error remain limited.On the other hand, when it comes to 400V with a 630A circuit breaker, the situation is a little different.I bought an AVO 8 mark IV in the 70s, I still have another AVO8 mark IV at home right now, I'm very careful and yet I have made mistakes in its use.Contrary to what is stated, it is very easy to be wrong in the selection of ranges.With power electronics and electrical measurement in high energy circuits, you simply CAN'T use a multimeter that uses the same inputs for voltages and currents.In safety, rules are mandatory....If you don't know this, you know nothing about safety.....

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 12:36:30 pm
content: Avometers are fucking dangerous. I'm surprised to see people defending them here. The cut outs are notoriously sticky after a couple of overload events which causes total incendiary destruction the next time, they give false indications if you drop them even once and they're bloody unreliable to start with, especially the 8 mk 5 / 6. Why the hell you'd want to rely on one I don't know. They're fun I suppose but that's about it.Company I worked for eviscerated them by force from the fanboys because people actually had got hurt using them. I wish I had a copy of the PDF they sent around. "anyone with an Avo on their bench will be stuck on assembly for a week". They were giving out HP 34401A's from equipment storage and people were still using Avos...?!?There is no place for them in a professional setting now. What you do in your own time is your business but if you burn someone's facility down because your Avo was misreading or damaged or you fucked up then... ugh I don't know but just don't go there.As for stupid, you can't fix stupid. Test procedures are as important as kit but the objective is to minimiseallaspects of risk in any environment so start with the easy wins:1. Training.2. Stop people from walking around with loaded guns.Incidentally I actually do use an analogue meter, but I built it myself, the top range is 150V, it does DC only, FET input and only gets used on anything after a transformer secondary at most. I built this because it's difficult peaking RF PAs with a DMM due to the noise. Everything else, I have a nice Keysight handheld

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:35:53 pm
content: QuoteNot only Avometers, but all analog multimeters are fucking dangerous and SHOULD NEVER BE USED ON HIGH ENERGY CIRCUITS.....They are even not cat rated.....

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:40:10 pm
content: One reason they aren't around any more is there is no way you could get a CAT approval or rating for the things.Definitely agree. Some of the generic ones and even semi-professional "service" ones are bloody awful even from a physical design:Look at the banana sockets. Yeah I'm going to stick my fingers near those unshrouded terminals. Good show. Bzzt. Thud, shovel shovel.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:45:06 pm
content: High energy circuits is just one isolated use case. There are gazilions use cases anc people still love using analog multimeters.And no need to post in such agressive tone by the way.

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:56:32 pm
content: One likes to dive with sharks, another one likes base jumping, and another one likes to use analog multimeters. Why do you want to forbid them doing so? I'm driving a 12 year old car without all these modern safety systems like ESP, ASR, TPMS, BLIS etc. - do you also think it should be forbidden?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:57:42 pm
content: I'm not sure if you read the last line where I said I use an analogue multimeter I built myself... even look how shonky it is:In a professional setting, it's not about choice or opinion though, it's about responsibility and safety. Not just you but of all the people relying on you not using a piece of crap for your testing and leaving them with something dangerous on their hands.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 28, 2018, 02:57:42 pmWhat is your goal? To help those who deny all the work Dave and Joeqsmith have been doing for years to improve multimeter safety?...None of these analog multimeters could be approved to be used safely.I'am not against analog multimeters but they have no place in high voltage and high energy circuits....more or less the same as a DT830 crap dmm.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on March 28, 2018, 03:04:20 pmI am agreeing with you, Dave and Joeqsmith.I'm merely stating that this isn't some personal hate campaign or echo chamber against analogue multimeters, otherwise why the hell would I have built one?Safety first always. CAT rating first, not some Chinese one either.I usually drive a Keysight U1241 and GW Instek GDM-8341 for refbecauseI value safety first.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: tzok on March 28, 2018, 02:56:32 pmTo forbid something, you have to have the corresponding authority, the means to control and to sanction ..... Nobody has such power on a forum .... So what I write on a forum does not forbid anything.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 28, 2018, 03:08:30 pmI apologize, I quote the wrong post.....I was answering to tzok.....sorry....

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:19:41 pm
content: Gotcha - makes sense

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:39:50 pm
content: Personally I don't care about the CAT ratings, but I have no contact with high energy circuits. Also, I see no point why an analog multimeter couldn't meet CAT rating standards. I mean if it was a modern project. Actually there are modern analog multimeters which have the CAT rating, e.g. Voltcraft VC-5080 or VC-2020 (both are CAT III 500V) or KYORITSU 1110 (CAT II 600V). From the logical point of view you are against using old multimeters, not meeting CAT standards, in high energy circuits. It has nothing to do whether they are analog or digital.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:45:18 pm
content: VC-5080 is bollocks. It's the same as the early MT-2017 meters which I've seen inside and there's no way that could get a CAT rating. Doesn't even have HRC fuses or any provision for any protection at all!?!?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:49:17 pm
content: Quote from: tzok on March 28, 2018, 02:56:32 pmWhere do you get a 12 year old car without all of those? They have been commonplace longer.

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 05:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 28, 2018, 03:49:17 pmThey were available as an optional (and expensive) equipment, but not obligatory.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 05:44:45 pm
content: Lada driver ?

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 05:57:09 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on March 28, 2018, 05:44:45 pmFar from this...

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 09:44:06 pm
content: Hows this folks. A 13.5 Kilo volt analogue meter.https://www.test-meter.co.uk/metrohm-llt13-8-13-8kv-ac-live-line-test-kit/

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 11:25:29 pm
content: Help!!!Where can I buy a 121GW EEV Blog Multimeter??Thank you!

author: Chris-IP5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 11:42:55 pm
content: 121GW is for sale on EEVBlog store. Follow link to main site at bottom of this page.(No I am not affiliated, etc...)

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 11:57:14 pm
content: Thank you.https://www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 12:04:12 am
content: Quote from: Chris-IP5 on March 28, 2018, 11:42:55 pmEXCEPT that it will be "Out of Stock" for a while yet!Dave still has around 2,000 units to deliver to his Kickstarter backers before he can eventhinkabout stocking his store.

author: Chris-IP5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 01:32:09 am
content: Oops! Sorry I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for pointing it out.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 07:32:46 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 28, 2018, 02:45:06 pmI think it's his normal mode of posting----he is right & everybody else is an idiot!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 07:34:59 am
content: Nope some of us just don't run like this

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 08:19:28 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 29, 2018, 07:34:59 amAt least he put an orange safety cone at each end of the work area.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 08:26:46 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 29, 2018, 07:34:59 amWhat is some halfwit resting his ladder on wheelie bins to do with the thousands of professional & technical people who safely used old style analog multimeters for many decades prior to the existence of CAT ratings ?Theywereused safely, because the people using them were very aware of the risks, & abided by extremely rigid safety procedures.Nobodyis saying:-" Hey Noobs! Just buy an old AVO meter & without any knowledge, hang it across 440volts* phase to phase!"*That's what it used to be in Western Australia.Neither are we recommending people ignore CAT ratings, as they do add a layer of safety .But itisa "layer of safety", not a guarantee of absolute safety!All we are pointing out is that people did use such meters safely for years, because they knew what they were doing, as a counterpoint to the quite hysterical "Analog meters are dangerous--- use one, & you'll die!", style of posting.There are many example of intrinsically quite dangerous devices being safely used by huge numbers of people by the religious application of safety rules.An outstanding case is that of chainsaws, where the last safety modification was about 40 years ago.Another is cars, where the primary safety protection is conforming with the Road Rules.Modern cars with all sorts of gadgets still crash.Not a device, but humans have not changed in hundreds of millenia, so they have no new inbuilt safety features.Despite this lack of safety features, & the very dangerous nature of ocean beach swimming, millions of people swim safely every year, due to the application of safety rules.

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 08:51:04 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 28, 2018, 02:40:10 pmSupposedly, the Simpson 260 Series 9S is rated 600V CAT IIIThe price is $ 525(2 Flukes and 2 VOMs at home)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 08:58:05 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 29, 2018, 08:26:46 amWe agree that they used them, we disagree on "safely".Quote from: vk6zgo on March 29, 2018, 08:26:46 amBeing a lumberjack is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. They'll stop using chainsaws in a heartbeat if somebody comes up with an alternative.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 09:00:20 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 28, 2018, 02:40:10 pmI'm not sure that's an intrinsic property.They made them that way for the same reason they made cars without seatbelts or headrests, ie. they felt that real manly men didn't need such things..

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 09:16:52 am
content: Real men didn't live long.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 01:16:58 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2018, 09:00:20 amThey assumed intelligent men & women could follow simple safety rules.In the case of using multimeters that was the case, with drivers, much less so.There is not the same exhilaration in using a meter incorrectly that there is in driving like an idiot.Also," drink metering" was never popular.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 01:22:21 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on March 28, 2018, 09:44:06 pmThis is a small 10 kV electrostatic voltmeters. I used in the past versions of this at 150 kV.Here is a 50 kV analog. No batteries required.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sensitive-Research-Electrostatic-Voltmeter-model-ESH-50KV-/381384872490

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 04:56:24 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2018, 08:58:05 amFunny thing, I don't remember all the deaths from the use of such instruments.The only reports which I've seen involve the unsafe use of DMMs.QuoteI wasn't really referring to their use in the timber industry, but their ubiquity in backyards the world over, often used by people without formal training.Timber workers, on the other hand, are intensively trained, & adhere to strict safety rules.Chainsaws are a quantum leap forward in safety, compared to some of the equipment used in the timber industry in the past, like razor sharp axes, two man crosscut saws, drag saws, & the horrific portable circular saw.The real dangers in timber work have little to do with the equipment used, but much more to do with the trees themselves.Trees don't always fall in the direction predicted, pieces break off & fly in unexpected ways, the cut off bottom of the tree sometimes slides back over the stump, instead of falling cleanly, & (a Western Australian specialty), the felled tree may bump a big red gum tree, which will drop a huge dead limb from the best part of 100 metres up.Looking up the specs for deaths in the Western Australian Forest industry, there were only three accidental deaths ( from all causes) in the 20 years to & including 2017, so it isn't that dangerous these days.Looking back to the very early 1900s, it was more like a war zone!Of course, there were many more people engaged in timber work back then, so the bare numbers give a result which is a bit slanted.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 08:22:43 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 29, 2018, 07:34:59 amHe scores Double D!ckhead Points for not realizing there would have been less risk by setting up the double sided ladder normally on the ground,and balancing himself on the top of the ladders platform, with the option to fall and land on the plastic bin if shtfwhich is a no no, but a better bet that what this Darwin Award Candidate is doing hereand yes, I have done it that way in a pinch, double sided step ladders rock less when you're at the top, and holding on to the workpieceand praying to your favorite afterlife host you don't get called in too earlySurprisingly he isn't wearing sandles and headband to really look the part...He should find an easier location to stash his ice

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 08:52:20 am
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on March 30, 2018, 01:22:21 am

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 09:04:15 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2018, 08:58:05 amHave you really ever used one ?For 'real' work and not just pruning fruit trees ?I've worked in and around the industry for 4 decades and the guys I've know that got killed or injured took stupid risks just like using non-genuine AVO leads for HV measurements.These days what happens in the 'bush' is all $ driven and feller/bunchers have taken on most of the felling and log-making tasks as they're more productive as well as safer. Of the many crosscutters I have known few are still on a saw as mechanization has taken their jobs and the best worked most of their lives with suffering only minor injuries, no more than anybody else in a physical job. All miss the satisfaction of a days work on a saw !Back on topic, any good brand Analog or DMM is only as safe as the operator using it.....knowing it's capabilitiesandtheir own ! There's NO foolproof equipment. Period.My first was one my dad made from a 'University' kit in the '40's, 1000VDC and AC rated but the probes left a lot to be desired as I found out at ~13 in the 70's with a 700V AC shock from a 320VDC HV PSU I was building.In support of vk6zgo I have no reservation in using my AVO 8 Mk5 for any HV work to the limit of its capabilities and have done so many times.(with only genuine AVO leads)

author: xani
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 02:03:40 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 29, 2018, 08:26:46 amIn that comparision axe would be an analog meter while chainsaw would be digital...I doubt you will find many lumberjacks arguing that they would rather waste time with axeQuoteYes but modern cars would leave you wounded instead of dead, thanks to crumple zones, seat belts and airbags, or will prevent at least some accidents altogether thanks to better brakes, ABS, and various other safety systemsQuoteSure but beaches and pools still hire lifeguards.Your attitude is basically "well, whoever died is probably incompetent, just let darwin sort it out"

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 09:58:29 am
content: @tautech:QuoteThe discussion is not about high voltage, but about using an analog multimeter to make measurements on high energy circuits.I posted on page 1:QuoteHigh energy, this means for exemple as well 400Vac protected by 630A fuse, 550Vdc of armature of a 150HP dc motor, 2KV ac busbar on power distribution systems, 600V dc of batteries of industrial No-Break, and so on....I doubt that your kind of "HV works" as hobbyest has somethingto do with high energy circuits.Even Fluke write the same advice for theyr hight voltage probes: DO NOT use this probe to measure high voltages on power distribution systems.http://en-us.fluke.com/products/all-accessories/fluke-80k-40.html

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 10:21:14 am
content: Again - this has nothing to do with them being analog... it is just because most of them come from pre-CAT rating era. They are not as safe as modern CAT rated DMM (or maybe rather I should write more unsafe), not because they are analog, but because of their construction.Why should magneto-electric indicator be less safe than LCD or OLED display? This is just a kind of display.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 10:43:29 am
content: Quote from: tzok on March 31, 2018, 10:21:14 amIt doesn't matter why analog multimeters are unsafe and even very dangerous when used in high energy circuit, they are, you recognize it....DO NOT use an analog multimeter in high energy circuit, that's the only safety advice possible.

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 11:43:49 am
content: I just simply can't agree with such statement, it is not logical. There is a lot of old DMMs which are equally unsafe, and there is a few modern analog multimeters, which meet CAT ratings. It's like you'd state "don't drive 2-stroke cars - they're dangerous". The fact of having 2-stroke engine doesn't make the car dangerous.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 11:57:17 am
content: Quote from: tzok on March 31, 2018, 11:43:49 amInteresting. I haven't seen a new design of professional (i.e. not the $5 kind) analogue multimeter for decades. Who makes them?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 12:23:55 pm
content: I dont think any one is talking about five dollar meters of any type. As for not using analogue meters on high energy circuits, what do you think the linesman meter is for if not high energy grid lines, they are produced as analogue meters fact is when I went looking I did not find a digital one.I think it is a case of horses for courses.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 02:18:06 pm
content: Thats because linesmen don't use multimeters, analogue or otherwise. They have fuck off great big 6-12 foot poles which capacitively or magnetically couple to the DUT with a sampling head. There's a red light and a green light on the stick that is 3 feet away from the hot end that says if there is an AC current present and that's it. And that's just to confirm that the line is up or down only before they assume the safety interlock is correct.Most of the monitoring is done remotely via inductors which are coupled to the power lines magnetically and then relayed via radio.The few occasions they do need to measure they have digital meters (look at Seaward's product line) particularly KD1E and Halo Hooks. They don't go up much past 22KV. Look for digital phasing sticks as well, which are pretty cool. These aren't routinely used by linesmen because they are quite hazardous.Incidentally our DC sparkies who deal with our generators, racks, cooling systems don't use any meters on the three phase bus bars. All the monitoring is remote. They only use DMMs after phase pick off after breakers (like they are supposed to).

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 02:43:36 pm
content: Hi all,I am missing one big advantage of the analog multimeter.It injects a lot less noise into sensitive circuits.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 04:12:11 pm
content: Yes. Bob Pease wrote about that in Troubleshooting Analogue Circuits. Also RF immunity is somewhat better. Which is why I use one for peaking RF amplifiers.

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 06:36:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 31, 2018, 11:57:17 amThere are at least two: Simpson 260 Series 9S (see picture up in this same page)Metrix MX1, both are rated 600 V CAT III

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 08:08:27 pm
content: Quote from: ferdieCX on March 31, 2018, 06:36:58 pmWho still buys that? The metrix MX1 cost 250 bucks and the Simpson more than 500 bucks ..... The price of one or two Brymen BM869 ... !!!There is no match.....How many of these 2 analog multimeters exist on the market? And how many other new and old analog multimeters that have no cat classification and no protection at all ?For sure, these two multimeters do not represent one thousandth of all analog multimeters old and new still existing today.

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 08:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on March 31, 2018, 08:08:27 pmI am pretty sure, that most VOMs existing and being used in the world have not CAT classification.Both of mine haven't it (Simpson 260-7M and Sanwa U-50D) I mostly use a Fluke 179 and sometimes a 87V.I just wanted to point that, if for some reason you need or just want to use a 600 V CAT III VOM, you can buy it.If it makes sense, that's another thing. I guess, that probably someone working in high RF environment would use them.

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 08:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on March 31, 2018, 08:08:27 pmDo you think that DMMs from '80 are more safe than similar price range VOMs from the same era?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 08:44:09 pm
content: Quote from: ferdieCX on March 31, 2018, 08:25:25 pmWhen I sat in a test chamber for phased array radar and ECM, they used HP 34401’s.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 08:45:10 pm
content: Quote from: tzok on March 31, 2018, 08:28:39 pmI have never said that .... if you are doing measurements on a high energy circuit, you must use at least a dmm catIII 600 or 1000V or cat IV of a brand deemed serious, not a crap DT830 or other no name multimeter . ..http://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-dmm/0518-dmm-campaign/dmm/fluke_dmm-chfr/files/safetyguidelines.pdf

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 09:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 31, 2018, 08:44:09 pmAs I said, it is just a guess. I don't work in high RF.I still remember the issue with the 87V and the GSM handy.

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 09:31:57 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on March 31, 2018, 08:45:10 pmSo, why don't you say like that from the beginning? "if you are doing measurements on a high energy circuit, you must use at least a dmm catIII 600 or 1000V or cat IV of a brand deemed serious", I'd only change "must" to "should"... and then fully agree with you. The form of result presentation (analog/digital) has nothing to do with the meter safety, so your previous statement that "if you are doing measurements on a high energy circuit, you must not use analog multimeter" is logically wrong. The reason for not using a particular multimeter on a high energy circuit is it's inadequate/unsafe construction (and thus the lack of CAT rating), not the analog type of "display".I really hate when someone forbids me to do something, giving no logical explanation why, or giving an explanation that is not logical. It is ok for religious beliefs, but not for law, nor for technical rules. I know that Microsoft has their official "Evangelists", but I find this name in this particular context to be a stupidity. But in fact they do create a religion instead of technical consulting - they show Microsoft technology to their (often "technically impaired") clients and trying to convince that it is the best one, and they should use it and only it. I find it really upsetting, that people more and more often obey rules or follow instructions, not caring about the reasons behind them. It is like: someone told me that it should be done like this, so I'm always doing it like this, and I'm teaching other to do the same... I don't care why I should do it like this or if I could do it better/easier way. Maybe I'm wrong, but for me, you sound like them.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2018, 10:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: tzok on March 31, 2018, 09:31:57 pmOn a forum, my advice is that you must be safe, not you should be safe .... because safety is not an option ....But of course, as I explained, it's not an order, it is impossible to give orders on a forum .... You do what you want, if you want to take risks, sincerely, I do not care .... But do not advise to others to do it.When we talk about an analog multimeter, we are not referring to just the display, but to the whole multimeter, including its construction ... Since 99.99% of analog multimeters are unprotected, dangerous and have no cat classification, it is perfectly logical to say: never use them to make measurements on high energy circuits.You only make a futile discussion, quibbling for a word you do not like ...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 12:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: ferdieCX on March 31, 2018, 06:36:58 pmHioki makes some as well:https://www.hioki.com/en/products/detail/?product_key=5662(not sure why that's in their "digital multimeter" section)Quote from: oldway on March 31, 2018, 08:08:27 pmObviously somebody does.There must be more die-hard curmudgeons out there than we realize.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 12:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on March 31, 2018, 10:05:03 pmI agree, one thing is to do it at home, another is to endlessly argue it in public forums which will be archived/searchable.We all know that an analog metercanbe used safely,ifyou know what you're doing. The trouble is all the people out there in the "just enough knowledge to be dangerous" category. People who might believe they know what they're doing and go on using grandpa's old analog meter instead of buying a new DMM.eg. The "teacher" in the other thread who believed in students learning safety 'the hard way' (just like he did).

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 12:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: xani on March 30, 2018, 02:03:40 pmIndeed, but people still have car accidents due to unsafe driving.The biggest contribution to a safe outcome was seat belts."Silly" accidents that should have just caused vehicle damage often caused injury or death before they became standard.Airbags only exist because Americans believed compulsory use "infringed their civil rights".Usedwithseat belts, they have, following years of development & improvement, become excellent safety features.QuoteBeaches & poolsdohire lifeguards, but if everybody swam without regard to safety, they would be quickly overwhelmed.It is only because the majority follow the rules that we can get away with the small number of lifeguardswe do.They are there to rescue the "incompetent".

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 04:25:48 pm
content: What every body here is forgetting is there are people out there who can get themselves hurt with a Fluke meter and others who wont get hurt using the crappiest and oldest analogue meter, it is all down to the individuals skill sett. As others on this forum have said there are instances that require an analogue meter, there are also cases where a digital meter is required and many cases where either will do.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 05:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 01, 2018, 04:25:48 pmAbsolutely wrong.....Who has no skill will make errors anyway but the consequences of his errors will be very different.....For exemple, measuring 400V on hight power line with multimeter on current range:With AVO 8, cutout is not able to interrupt such a voltage and current, current will be very hight, an arc will occur at the tips of the probes, this arc will extend between the power rails and result in an explosive arcOperator will be badly burned, will become blind, and may die ....The same with a Fluke 87 IV: risk of such error is far less because current input and voltage input are separate and there is an acoustic alarm if you make a mistake.If you make this error with the Fluke, the 10A high-breaking capacity fuse will interrupt the current and nothing serious will happen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 06:57:26 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 01, 2018, 04:25:48 pmLet's leave an DMM in a room with a mains socket and a curious child who saw daddy measure the mains with it.Now repeat with an analog meter...

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 10:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on April 01, 2018, 05:13:48 pmLooking at that video I don't think the explosion was caused by the misuse of any type of meter. The man appears to be cranking on something from the body motion as whether it was some type of switch or pulling a cable or something like that I cannot say but there was a lot of body motion going on.

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 10:13:23 pm
content: So what would you say about this modern, electronic (FET), analog multimeters like Voltcraft VC-5080/VC-5081... both have separate V and A inputs, and 10MOhm input impedance... both are CAT III 500V rated.Another ("slightly" more expensive) examples are:Metrix MX1 - IP65 and CAT III 600V (pure "VOM"),Chauvin Arnoux C.A 5011 - CAT III 1000V (FET).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 10:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: tzok on April 01, 2018, 10:13:23 pmAs you note, a FET meter can have a really high impedence. It can be mademuchsafer than a meter which simply sends the electricity through the coil.But why bother? A DMM is better. They only make those for the "get off my lawn" engineers.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 05:48:00 am
content: @G7PSK:It is obviously very difficult to take a video of an accident when it occurs.This video was intended to show that:- accidents can happen even to qualified people. (here a professional electrician working in an industry)- the consequences of an electrical problem in a high-energy circuit are very serious.But it is clear that whatever the arguments that will be presented to you to show you the need to work in compliance with the safety rules, you will always find arguments to contradict them.Your attitude makes me think of that of a friend of mine: he believes that the earth is flat .... it is useless to discuss with him, you can send him in the international space station, he will tell you again that if he sees the round earth, it is due to an optical effect.I hope you will never work on high energy circuit.Here a slow motion video of a what happens with an electric arc in a 480V high energy circuit. (It does not matter if this arc is initiated by a multimeter or any other reason !!)

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 08:31:13 am
content: Quote from: oldway on April 02, 2018, 05:48:00 amWell your attitude makes me think of people who think the bible is absolutely true and not a total work of fiction with a few life codes thrown in. Thing is I do know how dangerous high energy systems of any type can be and always take suitable steps, I think that the fact I am now in my sixties and have been working with high energy stuff since my late teens and never had any incident goes to prove something. What I am saying and have said all along is that analogue and digital both have their place, what you are suggesting is akin to throwing out wheels because we have invented wings. As for sensitivity some analogue meter are just as sensitive as digital, I have one on my bench in front of me at this moment that is twenty micro amps full scale, just touching the connections moves the pointer and now that is not down to the needle jumping as it swings one way and holds. I also have a meter rated at 300 amps 11 KV from a power plant admittedly it is not hand held but it is still an analogue meter.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 08:48:45 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 02, 2018, 08:31:13 amIf you had to recommend a multimeter to a youngster who doesn't know as much as you, what would you choose: Analogue or digital?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:05:08 am
content: That would depend on what they wanted to do with it. Cost wise I would tell them to get a DMM of a high a standard as they could afford, but I would also tell them to get an analogue if they have the money, like a scope it can help to get a feel for things. Trouble is dmm like other electronics are just so cheap now, junk price right off junk in most cases.

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:19:10 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 02, 2018, 08:48:45 amIf I were again 10 years old and money were not a problem, I would give myself a Fluke 175. That is more for the health of the meter that for my own safety.At that age (in 1968), my father was enough wise to allow me only to work with batteries or with a wall adapter.If I were 16, the age at which I learned complex numbers and started to play with an audio generator, I would buy myself a Simpson 260 Series 6 or newer (they have at least a high energy 2A fuse inside).Because of the good frequency response over 20 KHz, you can use the Simpson together with an audio generator to play with RLC circuits, trace the Bode plot of an amplifier, etc.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:30:04 am
content: To be fair the Uni-T UT61E has good AC response compared to a fluke handheld...

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:39:12 am
content: QuoteYes, it proved that you have been a very lucky man not to die in an accident .... Safety is the first concern for everyone who works with high energy circuits.....

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 10:04:41 am
content: Quote from: oldway on April 02, 2018, 09:39:12 amIt proves that I have always been cautious when working. Most cases of flash-over is not down to the meter or fuse the flash initiates at the probe point. So always turn the power off use clips not probes and then turn the power on standing well back and dont hold a DMM in the hand that is just stupid.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 10:35:58 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 02, 2018, 10:04:41 amYou did'nt understood anything about safety: Murphy's law: "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong".safety is about putting all the chances on your side, not only to avoid an accident, but also to minimize the consequences if it happens.To avoid an accident, you must not only be cautious, but also use a suitable measuring instrument, ie a quality device with the category approved for this job.You wrote that: "So always turn the power off use clips not probes...." If you have any real experience on field, you should know that it is mostly impossible, mostly you can't interrupt the power supply of an industry.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 01:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on April 02, 2018, 10:35:58 amI have plenty of experience in the field I used to install service and later manufacture generating plant. I learnt one important thing when I first started from my employer, if any one but any one comes and says hurry up, tell them that they have the choice of the job takes as long as required to do it safely or they can have the plant shut down for three months while the health and safety investigate what went wrong. I have worked on generators for the likes Of Ciba Gigy and Dows and at no time did I get the hurry up.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 02:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 02, 2018, 01:38:19 pmOK, everything is explained .... you have never worked in maintenance and industrial and power electronic repair ..... In installation, it's totally different, you work at ease, you stop to have tea or coffee when you want, you disconnect what you want when you want .... the life of pasha!In maintenance and repair, it's something else .... try to unplug anything in an oil refinery, try to stop to take your tea when a factory like Pirelli is stopped waiting for you to repair the 5000A dc drive that feeds the plant's main rubber mixer, try to make BASF, DEGUSSA, FINA or others to wait for you to fix "without to get the hurry up" and without safety their faulty equipment....Already, and to begin with, in these factories you must not only have taken safety courses and be qualified, but in addition, you must pass a theoretical exam about safety rules and regulations before being allowed to enter the factory ... I can guarantee you that with all the bullshit you wrote on this forum about safety, you'd be banned for life from these companies.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 07:55:24 pm
content: Accident with a multimeter ....It's so sad that I hesitated a lot to post this video ......Some lose their lives for nothing ....Let's try to prevent such an accident from happening again,Respect the safety rules .... This video explains my determination to defend this principle.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 08:47:57 pm
content: That indecent was not the fault of an analogue meter. The meter in question he was using looked like a Fluke DMM. The switch gear either did not have automatic lock out or that had been disabled.The argument here is not about safety at work with HT systems but as to the safety of analogue meters when used in the correct environment and the correct way. I used analogue entirely until around 2006 by which time digital were robust and cheap enough for me to go over to them in the main. I personally never worked on anything above 1100 volts as that was the voltage of the largest gen sets I ever worked with. I now only service a few smaller sets the largest of which is 150 KVA 415 volt.I can assure you that safety while working is my priority to the point that I have walked off jobs in the past as the site or other workers were not safe to be around, better no pay than dead.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 02, 2018, 08:47:57 pmWhere did I wrote that this accident has been the fault of ananalogmultimeter ?Do you have Alzheimer's or are you just stupid?You should consult a doctor, because it is 5 pages that you repeat the same thing.All this because on page 1 I had the misfortune to write "never use an analog multimeter on high energy circuit."You are just ridiculous, your posts are pure spam ....You even said stupid things about the Bible.....Quote

author: tzok
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 10:00:37 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on April 02, 2018, 09:22:15 pmYou have not only write it once but you are repeating this over and over again, rejecting the facts, that safety of a meter has nothing to do whether it is analog or digital. Most modern cheap DMMs are equally or even more unsafe when used on high energy circuits than major brands analog meters from '80s, and '90s. Why don't you accept that fact? You should always use adequate equipment to the task you are doing. And you should never think that "safe" equipment will save you from making fatal mistakes. People who are working with HEC are supposed to know what they are doing, average person has no access to such circuits. If he had access, after reading your post, what would he choose? Having a choice between, lets say, Metrix MX1, and Aneneg AN8008? Which of these two do you think is safer? According tho the markings they are both CAT III 600V, and you said he must not use analog meters... supposedly he should not touch this circuit at all, but if he had no other choice?P.S.If safety is not an option - then why people still ride motorbikes instead of much safer cars?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 10:04:20 pm
content: Any multimeter can be unsafe if used incorrectly- analog or digital.That arc-flash video determined he was measuring phase-phase voltage in a 2.3kV MCC with a Fluke handheld multimeter, along with seven additional mistakes that cost him his dear life.Almost all analog multimeters are from an era before safety standards. It doesn't mean they are unsafe by nature, they are such a big multimeter with plenty of room for spacings, big fuses- compared to small DMM's.The Simpson 260 analog VOM has undergone many revisions over the decades, and there is thesafety version Model 260-9S.Cheap chinese multimeters with fake IEC 61010 approvals are garbage and much less safe than old bakelite.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 01:23:33 am
content: Quote from: oldway on April 02, 2018, 09:22:15 pmSo somebody (G7PSK) has avoided working on live gear because he is skilled and take a cautious approach to such things, and has had a long career which involved sometimes using an analog meter without blowing himself up. The systems were designed such that they can be safely powered down for maintenance.Somebody else (Oldway) is working in a different area has had to work on live gear because production cannot be interrupted, and would like everybody to only use a top of the line DMM because of the additional engineered-in safety features.The way I see it, G7PSK is actually the safer guy - having greater control over risks, allows greater working safety margins day to day. Should a meter blows up, it seems nobody will be the worse for it because the risks have been managed."Oldway" seems to have a whole lot of risks he can't directly mitigate, they are relying on processes, procedure and their equipment to keep them safe. A single failure or stuff-up could be very bad.If one of you was to come to serious harm due to a bad day at the office, my money is on it being Oldway. G7PSK's environment allows for greater overall safety, but "Oldway" seems to constantly be one slip-up from disaster.Does that about sum it up?Last time I looked this was anElectronics forum, and servicing HV lines, multi-megawatt generators or industrial induction furnaces is only a curiosity to most...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 02:07:05 am
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on April 03, 2018, 01:23:33 amWell, if you want to make a headphone amplifier that can really be considered serious...

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:17:20 am
content: As far as I am concerned, electrical power systems are a valid component of the general interest that is expressed on the EEVblog.As for the whole analogue versus digital metering issue, we seem to have gone WAAAYYYY past ANY reasonable boundaries defined by these differing technologies and well into a head-butting contest on safety in high energy environments on the industrial scale.The relevance to the topic of this thread has evaporated like a shorted 10kV busbar at a power station.

author: xani
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:35:41 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 02, 2018, 10:04:20 pmWhat baffles me is why they didn't just certified (and made neccesary changes, as they obviously know what would need to be fixed) their base model, just sell +$80 "safety tax" one.QuoteSure but I doubt anybody is seriously comparing +$300 Simpson to $10 chinese DMM.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:30:34 am
content: Here's a more modern analog meter. CAT III, 600V. It even has a neck strap so you can hang it close to your vital organs:

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:56:27 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 02, 2018, 10:04:20 pmTrue, but many (most?) arc-flash incidents occur at much less than that.The Gossen multimeter manual says:QuoteIf 33V sounds silly to you then stay away from "high energy" electricity.Arc flash FAQ

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:25:18 am
content: For those who haven't seen it or worn it, proper arc flash protection looks like this:One of the lesser known risks is the sudden UV burst which burns your retinas out instantly, even if you're not actually affected by the burning hot metal spraying all over you.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:33:31 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 03, 2018, 09:25:18 amHave you worn that? Cool!From the FAQ:QuoteQuote from: bd139 on April 03, 2018, 09:25:18 amFrom the FAQ:Quote

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:51:36 am
content: Yes they made us wear one before we specialised our degrees. It put me off power electronics. So I picked microelectronics and ended up wearing a clean room suit which was just itchy as fuck instead.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:53:11 am
content: The fun part is how many people areusing this imageto advertise their electrical safety courses.But anyway, back to analog vs. digital... digital is best, dammit!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:59:46 am
content: FFS that's just the worst image ever. Then again the electricians I have seen over the years, the dude above is over-equipped. One I know doesn't even have a working DMM. Drill a hole in the wall? Cut the breakers first, because he got a shock onceThis is a better one

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 10:40:19 am
content: Remember: Trust your nose. Stay away from any cabinets that fail the sniff test!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 11:33:48 am
content: Ouch!That's actually a good methodology. Good smells to learn the difference between:1. Ozone. Something is ionizing or arcing. High voltages in there.2. Hot fibreglass. Something is about to be trouble.3. Air feels or tastes buzzy. RF about.4. Burning carbon. Something is shorting or overloaded.5. PVC. Someone should have used teflon wire or a large problem is about to occur.6. Burning enamel. Transformer fucked. Isolate quickly before the only breathable air is the foot closest to the ground.7. Burning metal. All the PVC and enamel is gone. Duck and run.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 02:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 03, 2018, 09:25:18 amWonder how effective those outfits are. I used to have a plasma cutter rated at 300 volts Dc 55 amps output, that would spray out an plasma nine inches long and cut through anything including bricks ( I tried it) a copper plasma is used as anti tank weapon, so I wonder if the copper bus bar turned into a plasma and came in the direction of that suits wearer what protection id would afford, and before any one jumps down my throat I am sure it is better than nothing.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:28:05 pm
content: Always balance the pros and cons and do not exaggerate ....I remember that in a chemical industry, I had been forced by the factory safety regulations to use:- safety glasses (which I always used)- helmet with face shield- thick insulating gloves- I wore also my cotton overalls (cotton does not catch fire easily) and safety shoes (which I always used)And all this to make some simple measurements of voltage on a bank of batteries of fifty ah and total voltage of about 120VWe fall into the excess because:1) with safety glasses + face shield, vision is very small2) the insulating gloves were very thick and did not allow to hold the probes correctly, nor to make gestures of precision.So, over-protection may increase the risks of accidents, which is a mistake.It must also be remembered that disconnecting a switch or a circuit breaker is not enough to make sure that the equipment is powered off.Visible power interruption, grounding and locking (padlock) to prevent reconnection by mistake are the correct safety procedures

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 03, 2018, 02:56:49 pmWatch for yourself. They're pretty good. An arc flash doesn't last long, at max a few cycles before something goes ping and it clears so this isn't designed to cope with persistent energy output, but a sudden impulse of energy and impacts. A plasma cutter would work through it in no time.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:48:37 pm
content: When checking leads acid batteries a face shield is not over kill, I have seen several batteries explode from over gassing and just a small spark, I have had that happen to me with a car battery when I was around fourteen and disconnected a charger incorrectly, I was lucky the acid only went on my hands and clothes, I washed it off straight away but when my mother took my clothes out of the washer she wondered why they were full of holes.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:56:31 pm
content: Yes they are nasty things. SLA batteries don't take long to become LA batteries

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:21:02 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 03, 2018, 03:48:37 pmI also have seen industrial lead batteries explode, and when I have to work with such batteries, the first thing I do, before any other, is to look if there is shower of toilets not far....When there is an explosion of a lead battery, the first thing you need is water, a lot of water.....In the case of this chemical industries, they where vrla batteries....I never seen something bad with this kind of batteries even I was working with maintenance and repair of high power UPS (10 to 400Kva's)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:58:18 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on April 03, 2018, 03:28:05 pmTake a copy of theFAQalong next time:Quote

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:42:42 pm
content: Yes, I agree, but in companies in the chemical or petrochemical field, as a subcontractor, there is no possibility to discuss .... You do what they ask you or you are forbidden to enter factory the next time.And we must also ask ourselves other questions: what are the real risks? Is a 120V 50ah battery a "high energy circuit"? Not in my opinion anyway.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:53:53 pm
content: High energy really depends on the source impedance if you ask me. Compare a capacitor to a battery bank for example.As for electrical safety if you’re subcontracted or an employee it’s not your decision to make potentially. So if you blow yourself to bits or even worse a colleague, bye bye insurance claim.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:17:31 pm
content: In terms of responsibilities, it was always clear to me that I had to respect the safety rules imposed by my employer, not the exaggerated ones of some of his clientsIn case of an accident, it seems to me that it would be the insurance of my employer that would intervene.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:47:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 03, 2018, 08:30:34 amIt's got no approvals, just a misleading fake claim by Kyoritsu."designed to" does not mean it went through formal (61010) assessment.I recall you can see creepage/clearance violations on the pcb for that meter, it would not pass

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 03, 2018, 06:47:22 pmGood point. That's pure weasel wording, I should have spotted it.Still: It supports the theory that they only make those analog meters for the die-hard curmudgeons. If you turned up at a real job with one of those they'd probably kick you out in favor of the guy behind you who's waving a yellow DMM.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:05:10 pm
content: I bet they make the apprentices wear one of those suits to change light bulbs.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:34:40 pm
content: The Fluke DMM recall where they spontaneously rebooted due to EMI when connecting probes to HV. You wouldn't have that problem with an analog VOM.The ghost voltage readings due to high input impedance, analog VOM usually not misleading there. Any electrician who has been mislead, just sticks with the multimeter that is truthful for them.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:02:55 pm
content: Try keying a 100W RF amp next to your analogue meter. Swings a bit

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 03, 2018, 09:02:55 pmhttps://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rf-power-meters/4580623/

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:21:12 pm
content: Yes that's designed for that and is appropriately shielded. If you look at the SWR bridge or load in those things, it's usually in a separate compartment.Also, fuck me that's expensive. You can get the same damn thing for 70 quid from ML&S:https://www.hamradio.co.uk/accessories-swr-power-meters/mydel/mydel-swr-006-meter-pd-6634.php

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:38:37 pm
content: Was not thinking of buying it,RS tends to be very expensive it was just the first hit for an RF meter. Never really noticed a meter twitching from RF but have had digital ones and other forms of digital display go crazy from just a few watts of RF.I once saw a fluke get blown up when exposed to the HF on a tig welder, but that machine used to leak HF back up into the mains and no electronic equipment could be used on the same circuit, real beast of a late 1950's machine.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 10:01:13 pm
content: A quick search for (non existing ? ) Cat rated analog Intrinsically Safe multimeters (The red Flukes are made for this category)https://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/produkte/metraport3a.htmhttps://www.tequipment.net/Simpson260-9SP.asp?rrec=truehttps://www.test-meter.co.uk/dilog-pl001-analogue-multimeter/https://www.tester.co.uk/extech-38073a-analogue-multimeterhttps://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/analogue-multimeters/0219434/https://www.tester.co.uk/dilog-pl001-analogue-multimeterhttps://www.rapidonline.com/voltcraft-vc-2030a-analogue-multimeter-64-3344https://www.amazon.de/Analog-Multimeter-10-A-AC-DC/dp/B006KCP2M8/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_107_lp_tr_img_2/258-5550937-2550932?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ZXTGPT70ZZJHSH64WVZ3https://www.amazon.de/VOLTCRAFT-Hand-Multimeter-analog-VC-5080-Kalibriert/dp/B00Q2VV22Q/ref=pd_sbs_107_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=R8NVRV50B5G581D8WDA2https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/analogue-multimeters/4248903/I can not find it anymore but I did see a video a 2 years ago about some power electronics stuff in industry. I was looking for info about trip-units (those 50 kilo "fuses") I noticed all the guys in that video used analog meters, it had something to do with safety.I have around 30 analog meters, I collect them. The only ones I really use are a Fluke 845 and a HP-4329A, the rest is on display in the living room and I use them so now and then for fun. For work and hobby I only use digital multimeters. My main meter is a Keithley 2000, cat rating ?? I still liveAre analog meters dangerous ? Bullshit, the display has nothing to do with safety. The fact they follow the way of the dodo and sliderule had nothing to do with safety or cat ratings. Only with comfort and more resolution.I have seen digital meters go on tilt from 80W RF, the laptop crashed tooThe best safety is to use that grey mass between your ears.I think most DMM's produced are not very safe at all. All that cheap Chinese crap 90% of the forum users here adore and use. For safety I rather use an AVO 8 with the original test leads as some 30 dollar piece of crap (or one from the huge list unsafe meters here on the forum). with fake ratings and fake fuses (if it has a fuse)Just something that came to mind. Is a meter with a separate current input so much safer ?If I measure current and forget to insert the probes back to the voltage input and still try to measure a voltage I have a problem.If I have a combined jack and want to switch from current to voltage there is less chance it goes wrong. If I forget to swiths the voltage I have a problem in both cases. But if I forget to put the probe back to the voltage socket...oh wait, that does not matter if there is only one bus

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 12:19:08 am
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on April 03, 2018, 10:01:13 pmIf it was high voltage stuff they might have been using specialist voltmeters.(which look like analog multimeters, but aren't).

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 08:01:40 am
content: @PA4TIM: I know you for a long time, including the forum circuit online and I know you have no experience or qualifications to talk about safety in high energy circuits.You are radio amateur, collector, passionate to the extreme by the electronics, a brilliant electronic self-taught people who lives for and by the electronics.You talk about security thinking about the measures you do every day at home, in your workshop ...... And here I agree with you, I too have an AVO 8 and there is no problem to use it in a 230V circuit protected by a 25A circuit breaker .... These are low energy circuits with a short circuit current of 2000 to max 5000AIn case of an accidental short circuit, there is nothing more serious to expect.In the discussion, there was talk of using such devices on high energy installations with short circuit currents of tens of thousands of amperes.In these cases, the consequences of a short circuit are quite different, they can even be lethal. (see videos)The advice never to use analog multimeters to make measurements on high-energy circuits is a generalization based on the observation that 99% of the analog multimeters currently still existing are either old cat unclassified devices or the worst crap multimeters sold at 10 bucks.There are indeed some modern analog multimeters duly protected and cat rated, but they are a tiny part of what still exist.Of course, you can only trust in in high quality and famous brand as well for analog multimeters than dmm.EDIT: As BD139 pointed out, using a measuring device that does not have a cat classification or does not have the correct cat for the work you are doing is a serious professional misconduct and the insurance might not intervene in case of accident.EDIT 2: Let us remember that pure analog multimeters (without electronic circuit added) are NEVER AC true rms even if they cost more than 400 bucks and are useless for AC measurements with PWM inverters.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:18:39 pm
content: Quote from: Zbig on March 26, 2018, 03:37:29 pmThe fact that a mechanical movement provides a degree of integration is actually preferable IMO. You can't watch really fast moving signals on either, you need a scope for that, but if you have e.g. a noisy signal with a varying DC level a bargraph can be pretty hopeless. It's also a personal thing, having used analog multimeters for years I simply prefer them to digitised bargraphs.