Power cut in Spain and Portugal - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:25:38 pm
content: There has been a wide spread power outage in Spain and Portugal and the explanation as to why seems a tad unusual.They are blaming a rare atmospheric conditions of hot an cold causing "oscillations in 400KV lines" Some reports say vibrations.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t?post=asset%3Addda9592-0346-4fe8-a17a-2261efc1ba5b#postI have no idea how this could work.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:32:06 pm
content: I'm lost too. It seems a bit dramatic from the description and I wonder if more is going on, like a cyberattack, and they don't want to admit anything yet.It looks like besides Barcelona, nearly all of Spain is offline.In Portugal, Lisbon and Porto are powered up, but most of the rest of the country is still in blackout conditions.I used EV charging data to get an idea of the outage (since the rapid chargers report outages due to power cuts over their battery-backed modems).

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:40:20 pm
content: The EU officials are denying cyber attak, but a denial from politicians is offten as good as an admmision of guilt.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 28, 2025, 03:40:20 pmYou forgot to mention that MSSMM can't be trusted, and you should "do you're own research".Save paranoid conspiracy theories for other forums, and wait until an explanation has been determined.Besides, everybody knows it was the pixies (or gremlins) dancing on the HV lines.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:13:30 pm
content: Reportedly there was a fire at or near a major powerline between France and Spain.This is speculated to have caused a cascading failure of the network.I have heard nothing about what caused that fire.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:24:52 pm
content: No conspiricy theories here I just said the the EU says no cyber attack and that I do not understand how the explanation put foward by the Spannish power company works.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:26:13 pm
content: That makes more sense than "vibrations caused by the weather"

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on April 28, 2025, 04:13:30 pmI checked thelatest news (17h47 CET 15h47 UTC) about any high voltage powerline fire in the South-West of France and there's a forceful denial. For the moment.Firefighters checked the security IR cams multiple time and could not confirm any fire.What is confimed for the moment is that minor power outages happened in that region after noon. Duration did not exceed a few minutes.I also red that the Spain/Portugal grid wasdisconnected from the European high voltage gridfrom 12h38 to 13h30 CET (10h38-11h30 UTC)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 28, 2025, 04:24:52 pmYou wrote more than that (myemphasis), viz:Quote from: G7PSK on April 28, 2025, 03:40:20 pm

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:41:42 pm
content: How often do politicians say one thing and do another or deny something just for the opposite to be the case, way to often to count.So by saying the EU denys a cyber attack but a denial is often as good as an admission I was just saying that I could not put too much faith in that denial. I don't see that I need further explanations so I will leave it here. All that I was doing in the original post was trying to be brief seems that in this case it has backfired.

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:57:30 pm
content: High voltage grid connexions between France and Spain (see attached map)2 400 kVAC lines, each 1 circuit2 225 kVAC lines, each 1 circuit1 150 kVAC line 1 circuit1 DC line 2 circuitsSource :https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 28, 2025, 04:41:42 pmAs someone who is predisposed to conspiracy theories (because they imply cause and effect), over the course of my life I have learned that the usual explanation is a cockup or random chance.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: timeandfrequency on April 28, 2025, 04:57:30 pmWhat an interesting map. Also nice free scrolling page with no horrible spammy fixed header toolbars.I didn't know DC used like that for very long distances but they don't say how many volts like they do the AC ones.396km so that's 246 miles.Oops that misleading not direct.Walking (straight line) according to Google Earth is 312km so that's 193.86 miles.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:24:09 pm
content: Been 6 hours without electricity, cause unknown but never in 50+ years has Spain a country wide shutdown. Rumors are galore, one of them claiming that some SCADA systems were internet accesible and target of hackers:"In recent weeks, an unusual volume of scans targeting vulnerabilities in SCADA (Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition) infrastructure belonging to the Iberian electrical system had been detected, a consistent pattern with preparation techniques characteristic of massive cyberattacks. These scans, originating in North Africa, revealed digital signatures and techniques previously used in operations attributed to cells from Morocco, such as 'APT-Mor' and 'Sand Cobra.'"Some notes:-After blackout only people with cash were able to purchase at some supermarkets which had diesel generators-Learned that a country restart from 0 takes at least 10 hours, probably 15..20 hours to include train service-Heard an expert say that an European restart from 0 could take 1 week at least

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:29:11 pm
content: This is going to be more common in the coming years with higher demand for electric vehicles, heating, cooling and state sponsored hacking...

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:30:10 pm
content: Today was very sunny day and at peak 47 % (430 GWh) of the electricity in Europe was generated by solar panels (see attached image)Source :https://www.energymonitor.ai/power/live-eu-electricity-generation-map/?cf-viewAs nuclear power plants cannot be shut down (*) nor really modulated, the huge share of solar energy weakens the whole grid.(*) except for security/safety reasons, of course

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: PartialDischarge on April 28, 2025, 05:24:09 pmNot really surprising because if nuclear power plants have to be disconnected, you also need rather quicky to shut down their reactors (= stop the nuclear fission) because it is impossible to evacuate so much heat/energy by just bypassing the turbine steam circuit.From cold start, it needs 3 weeks to heat up a nuclear reactor.We have 57 of those (72 % of the electricity produced in France in 2023).

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:02:54 pm
content: To avoid total blackout, Spain had to disconnect a huge amount of end usersJust after noon, consumption was divided by two (see attached image).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:03:32 pm
content: Quote from: timeandfrequency on April 28, 2025, 05:41:46 pmEr. No.https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/power-station/daily-statusesThey take a day or so to reach nominal full load.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:05:56 pm
content: The Guardian had this explanation:The risks posed to electrical systems by big variations in temperatures are well known in the industry, but it is rare for it to cause problems on the scale of the power outage in Spain and Portugal on Monday.Transmitting power through wires comes with technical challenges. The air around conductors ionises, causing visible and audible electrical discharges known as corona discharges. That energy is lost. Extreme temperature variations cited by Portugal’s Redes Energéticas Nacionais can cause bigger problems by affecting metal wires at a molecular level, changing the frequency of the electrical current.“Due to the variation of the temperature, the parameters of the conductor change slightly,” said Taco Engelaar, managing director at Neara, a software provider to energy utilities. “It creates an imbalance in the frequency.”Once frequency drops below a certain level, power generators will automatically turn off in order to avoid overloading the grid.Engelaar said that – if the atmospheric cause is confirmed – it would be a “pretty spectacular” wake-up call for other countries that they need to invest in resilience against climate risks.“To see it at a national level, across two countries, I’ve never seen it in my career,” he said.I am missing the braincells to understand this, but maybe someone else can 😀

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 28, 2025, 06:03:32 pmMy information came from here :https://lenergeek.com/2016/12/23/redemarrer-un-reacteur-nucleaire-un-processus-long-et-complexe/L’ensemble du processus peut prendre jusqu’à 3 semainesSo 3 weeks worst case.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: timeandfrequency on April 28, 2025, 05:41:46 pmAs it should have been with the UK. This is what you can do, if you don't sell off all your country's critical infrastructure for a quick buck, without asking who will then put in long term investment.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: woody on April 28, 2025, 06:05:56 pmChinese whispers passed on by people who don't have a technical background.Classic version was "send reinforcements we're going to advance" => "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance".

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: woody on April 28, 2025, 06:05:56 pmThe Guardian doesn't trouble itself with facts or technical accuracy. I'm surprised they didn't try to explain it using interpretive dance.On the plus side, their spelling seems to have improved.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: NE666 on April 28, 2025, 06:16:08 pmI did not write that. Please correct the attribution