TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 03:33:01 pm
content: Due to a shortage of skilled workers.That is what happens when a country outsources wholesale an industry. The old skilled workers who had the knowledge retire, and there are no younger generations to “carry the flag”.https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66264392

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 04:05:09 pm
content: BBC missed to end of the sentence: “at the level of compensation the board approved”

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 04:42:38 pm
content: Even if we did not outsource anything, there would not be skilled workers just sitting there waiting for a new fab to open to apply their skills. With something like this you have two options. Either hire away from exiting fabs or hire fresh people and train them. Either way, it costs money.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 05:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 21, 2023, 04:42:38 pmThat is exactly my point, which perhaps I didn’t make it clear enough. The country has to have an ecosystem where to draw this talent from.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 05:47:29 pm
content: There are lots of operating fabs in the US that are doing fine hiring people. There is just not enough free floating people to staff an entirely new fab on demand. This was never the case.TSMC just need to pay over what people already make to switch jobs, and they will have all the people they want. They are just not going to do that.This is true for any business. Even staffing a new McDonalds is not as easy as it sounds.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 06:59:21 pm
content: This is about politics.Foxconn Wisconsin did the same tricks, delay delay do nothing and cry for more tax credits, excuse A, excuse B etc. and ultimately never deliver. Totally screwed over the county that built roads, sewer/water/electrical infrastructure, upsized the university etc.Now Microsoft is buying that land for a datacenter and of course they're getting tax breaks.I don't believe it - "shortage of skilled workers" is the cry of employers over here and in reality they can't findcheaplabour. Electronic techs for $17/hour meanwhile a cashier can make $20/hr. Gee I wonder why nobody is applying for the job? It must be a shortage of skilled workers!Yeah as if there are people skilled in building fabs just lying around ANYWHERE in the world. As if it's hard to install "pipelines"."TSMC and its suppliers are in talks with the U.S. government to assist with the application process for non-immigrant visas in a bid to dispatch more than 500 experienced workers as early as July to expedite the construction of cleanroom facilities and the installation of pipelines and other equipment, three chip supply chain executives said […]“There are not enough U.S. workers who have good first-hand experience specifically on building semiconductor manufacturing facilities, and many are not familiar with the requirements for chipmaking plants,” one executive told Nikkei. “That has caused delays in multiple installation works” […]“It is challenging and costly for Taiwanese cleanroom builders to communicate with foreign construction workers in an unfamiliar environment. Sending experienced construction contractors and their workers who worked with the chip suppliers before from Taiwan could save lots of time and costs,” one supplier said."

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 09:03:35 pm
content: Just like a certain famous British vacuum cleaner designer, always complaining that finding good engineers is hard.I ended up applying, and they offered me less than I was currently paid. Er... yeah, what you mean is you want cheap engineers and there aren't enough of those!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2023, 09:47:25 pm
content: Chip manufacturers have since day one been notorious for bickering about "special tax handling". Chip manufacturing is a highly politicized. Shortage of skilled workers is BS.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 02:22:14 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 21, 2023, 04:42:38 pmYep. Unless you attract them with lots of money and benefits, skilled workers will already be employed elsewhere and will stay there.All you'll be able to attract in the short term, or with not enough money, are beginners. Or maybe they are thinking of hiring tons of skilled workers from emerging countries, depleting the existing foundries from their workers. Who knows.You need both time and lots of money to start a foundry in a western country these days.

author: boB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 02:52:18 am
content: Yes, it's true !Money Talks.Mine always says goodbye !

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 04:12:56 am
content: Quote from: boB on July 22, 2023, 02:52:18 amNo - throwing money at technology such as semiconductors does not flip a switch and give you prizes.china state-backed"Big Fund"set up in 2014 towards independence in semiconductor manufacturing, around $45B but massive corruption and disappearing exec's pretty much tell you it did not go far. The results are not there despite the State's wishes. You can't merely copy technology.“It’s not possible to turn back the clock,” TSMC founder Morris Chang told a Taiwanese tech association in October. “If you want to re-establish a complete semiconductor supply chain in the United States, you will not find it to be a possible task, even after you spend hundreds of billions of dollars.”Foxconnpulled the plugon $19.5B Vedanta joint venture for making semiconductors in India. Another developing nation that wants semi's.Why would Taiwan give the US a leap ahead on semiconductor fab?

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 05:09:18 am
content: I’m puzzled by the term skilled worker. For the construction of a site. A foundry has a well established structure, plans, processes - just need to apply to a new location. Then roll in the ASML machinery, bought and made elsewhere. A foundry does not need armies EEs to design chips - it’s a factory, not a design agency. They need skilled operators, that is trainable. Given operators trained on a certain process, the knowledge is also very specific to that process. Thus the training should also be part of the established foundry processes. Did I miss anything?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 05:19:18 am
content: Quote from: dobsonr741 on July 22, 2023, 05:09:18 amYes. Companies would like to hire people with 5 years experience on theexactmachine being used, even if it came out only 3 years ago and then they would like them to relocate for pay of 50 cents over minimum wage.

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 05:41:25 am
content: The Microchip ex CEO explained it well: “we do not really need the Biden money, we are well of anyway, thanks so much”https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/talking-with-steve-sanghi-ceo-of-microchip-for-31-years/The point is it’s the company, not the labour shortage.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 05:43:56 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on July 22, 2023, 04:12:56 amBecause they want their own capital city.

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 05:59:30 am
content: A tiny US fab is not going to put a dent into TSMC’s domination. This YouTuber has many posts on TSMC and quite enjoyable if you are into knowing how TSMC operates:https://youtu.be/fRhfvSDyJdY

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 06:08:32 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on July 21, 2023, 06:59:21 pmIn the US, "shortage of skilled workers" is the magic password you say to the government which unlocks foreign workforce import.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 10:56:51 am
content: Quote from: dobsonr741 on July 22, 2023, 05:09:18 amIt was my understanding a great deal of the people who work at TSMC in the fabs do have masters or similar level degrees, some may even have PhD's. These are highly technical fields, and it's not just replicating a single process, you have to adapt to the different process nodes, handle various customer requirements, service the machines and understand what might cause a process to fail or reduce yield.Looking at Glassdoor, the lowest salary listed for "Equipment Operator" is $60k USD, and a senior engineer can get $120k.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 12:59:00 pm
content: I have worked at a R&D facility that employed over 20K. I was and still am surprised at the pay scales. Skilled trades frequently make much more than engineers.You could see the decline of the industry before your very eyes.A janitor with overtime could make more than an engineer.That is not an encouragement to go into engineering. I dropped out of engineering school partially because of this.Pay scales for engineering have been far too low in my lifetime.Unfortunately this cannot be changed quickly since engineering is not just a junior college degree.Concerning the operator's 60K, in my limited experience a worker in semiconductor industry is more like a skilled trade and skilled trades in auto plants make 60K and probably have much better benefits.Concerning the Taiwan Semiconductor industry, there is one more important strategic point to make. If Taiwan and Japando notcontinue to control the semiconductors, there is less reason for the US to defend them against incursion.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 01:31:01 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 22, 2023, 06:08:32 amFixed it for you.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 02:48:15 pm
content: I do not buy that argument. "Existense" of skilled workers out there that build chipmaking plants left and right. How many exactly chipmaking plants and foundries are built every year these days? Not many if any, I guess. And if the domestic workforce are "not familiar with chipmaking plants requirements", get the goddamn Requirements and standards documents and read them.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 03:15:19 pm
content: No highly qualified tech worker is going to leave a job rich environment like Silicon Gulch to move to a one-employer town in the middle of nowhere. The companies know this, or should, and realize they are going to have to grow their own. They would like to get some help from community colleges in terms of specialty training classes and, probably more important, math. Not math for the sake of numbers necessarily but rather an approach to problem solving. There will always be a surplus of problems.There are other problems, notably supply chain. Specialty gases, specialty chemicals, specialty facility equipment (DI water production for example), filters, UV lamps, a whole shopping list of things that won't be available locally and the profit from dealing with a single customer (or short list of customers) won't entice a local supplier to get involved.Hazmat disposal is another issue as is sewer treatment capacity. I don't know how wet the processes are today but even a modest fab would use about a half million gallons of water per day back in the mid '80s. I couldn't imagine what a mega-fab would take based on those processes.Power requirements could be quite large if diffusion furnaces are still part of the procress. Given the internal heat gain (substantial) the HVAC systems are quite large. Thousand ton chillers (more than one) are certainly in the mix. Water and sewer systems will be strained no matter where the site is placed.These issues are not unknown, the companies just want somebody else to help pay for them.Don't forget specialty training for first responders! Often the companies provide a level of response but that won't include large scale events. Does the Building Department even understand what they are approving?

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 04:07:59 pm
content: These are the job listings for TSMC:https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=TSMC&l=ArizonaThis is how it looks - 60 pics on Google map:https://goo.gl/maps/g4sVJr41wSVDTWCK6The minimum they ask for a mask process engineer:Applicants must be legally eligible to work in the United States and have:A minimum of a B.S. Degree in an engineering and scientific field such as Physics, Material Science, Chemical Engineering, Electric Engineering, Chemistry, or Mechanical Engineering. Master degree and above is preferred.No prior experience required, need good communication and interpersonal skills that enable you to work on cross-functional and geographically dispersed teams.Able to adapt priorities and responsibilities to support business needs.A team player that can multitask and thrive in a very dynamic and fast-paced environment.Ability to travel to Taiwan for training for up to 6 months if needed.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 04:30:49 pm
content: QUOTE:Mr Liu said the plant, which has been under construction since April 2021, faced a shortage of workers with the"specialised expertise required for equipment installation in a semiconductor-grade facility."This says that the problem is in installation of equipment.Usually any new equipment in a factory comes with a cadre of technicians and engineers that are from the company that makes the equipment. They tend to upset all your Plant Engineers and verbal altercations are common.Are they saying the equipment manufacturers do not have installation experts??? I highly doubt that.Finding resident Plant Engineers would be another story. Lots of specialized stuff. Finding plant engineers with qualifications in stuff like Arsine Gas Safety and Laminar Air Flow and air filtering and strict temperature conditions might be difficult. All this and the waste safety and Industrial Hygiene experts and even roof engineers, But this is a continuing job, not just start up help. These Plant Engineers exist. you just have to pry them away from their present jobs. Money solves that problem all the time.And besides that, there might be some older Engineers who are thinking of retiring to Arizona and would welcome a few year stint in their potential retirement paradise.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 07:01:29 pm
content: There are immigration/red-tape issues with having installation engineers from a foreign country on site for an extended period: work permits, etc.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 07:03:00 pm
content: There is a culture clash - difference in wage, working hours, building codes. And some political games.As far as the shortage of skilled "plumbers" to build the fab, Arizona unions are irked they have no work or labour agreement with TSMC. CHIPs legislation gives project labour agreements as "nice-to-have" not mandatory. TSMC complaint is America is costing 4x that of Taiwan. So plumbers are too expensive, lol. There is no shortage of skilled people."Starting from early November last year, TSMC has been sending its employees and their families on chartered flights to the United States, with over a thousand engineers expected to go. According to Taiwanese media reports, the engineers sent by TSMC to the US are not only the main force of the company’s Arizona fab but also key talents in revitalizing the semiconductor industry in the United States.""TSMC’s engineers stationed in the United States receive double the base salary {unattractive} and maintain the same bonus as those in Taiwan. As for housing, employees can choose to live in the company-provided dormitory located in the nearby Deer Valley community, with a monthly rent of $1,800 for which the company provides a $2,000 monthly subsidy."tsmc careers AZ52 jobs.i.e Engineers-Bachelor, Master or Ph.D. in Materials Science, Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, or related field 6+ years of experience in the semiconductor field, especially in module process development-Experience in the semiconductor industry with AMAT, TEL, HKE, ASM, Mattson or HSPS 300mm tool process and equipment knowledge-must relocate to TW for 9 months training.... it looks like only support positions for the plant are posted. Disliked is the high cost of living compared to TW.more here:https://www.diskmfr.com/tsmc-engineers-wife-reveals-10-secrets-of-us-factory/"In order to coordinate with the Taiwan headquarters’ schedule, employees in the US have to work from Sunday to Thursday, from 1 PM to 10 PM."

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 05:16:41 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on July 22, 2023, 07:03:00 pmI doubt there will ever be a union contract with TSMC. Skilled trades work for contractors and TSMC can hire any contractor they wish. In Siliicon Gulch, contractor union contracts call for a 'grievance' bonus if they have to work alongside non-union contractors.Unless the plumbers have worked in a wafer fab, they know exactly jack about welded tube-in-tube stainless tubing or fusion welded (whatever they use for DI water today). Regardless of the cleanliness of the piping upon delivery, there will likely be a cleaning operation they haven't seen before. There will be a lot to learn.TSMC moved to AZ for a number of reasons among them the fact that the state is 'right to work' - union membership is not required.QuoteQuoteI can't imagine a 1 hour lunch break for hourly employees - there are things in the oven. Or they plan to pay 1-1/2x for that extra half hour - unlikely.I was involved in a similar kind of deal when I was building a wafer fab in Singapore. We had a bunch of the local talent working for about a year in the US learning to operate the equipment and once the fab was complete a small handful of US tech talent moved to Singapore for a while. Those Singapore engineers are very well educated, it was fun working with them. The factory was built from scratching dirt to production wafers out in almost exactly 1 year. Great contractors - but they needed a little skills updating for that welded tube-in-tube stuff but they were all in for buying tools and learning to use them.