The end of teardowns? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: czdt8m
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 06:20:23 pm
content: I recently came across this article from Darpa:http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Releases/2013/01/28.aspxSeems they are working on self destructing electronics to avoid reverse engineering. (When captured by the enemy)Imagine the PCB melting when it comes into contact with water, or destroying some crucial part when exposed tolight.The article is about a year old now, but i guess this will show up sooner or later, possibly even in commercial stuff depending on the cost.No more teardowns?

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 06:30:29 pm
content: How will the hi-tech hi-cost electronics be repaired?This is just more government foolishness.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 06:33:05 pm
content: There was an article out a couple of weeks back about self-destroying chips. Some manufacturer got the order for the US Army/Gov to produce them.So on trigger the chip internals are ruined and could not be reverse engineered. I don't think it would be safe/feasable to expect whole PCB's to "explode" when torn down. Probably only on very special military equipment doing stuff like encryption/ciphering of secure communication streams, or weapon systems.As the article starts with "Warfighters", something tells me this is for some kind of military application too. Maybe this is different, but certainly there will be multiple companies working on the same objective , so in the end they get a choice which technology to choose.

author: czdt8m
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 06:44:02 pm
content: Quote from: hans on February 21, 2014, 06:33:05 pmA lot of stuff starts as military and ends up in commercial. (Internet anyone?)Given enough time, some of this technology may become mainstream enough for anyone to include.Just the next step from removing chip numbers.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 06:47:06 pm
content: So if you want to cripple a system you figure out how to falsely trigger the self destruct, or just give it to a squad and tell them to take good care of it. Will come back in small pieces for sure.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 07:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: czdt8m on February 21, 2014, 06:44:02 pmIF it's meaningful.The Internet is pretty useful. Self-destroying electronics, not so much unless you're on a battlefield.It's always cost, advantages and disadvantages.

author: czdt8m
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 08:05:37 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on February 21, 2014, 07:51:12 pmGood point!

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 08:14:55 pm
content: The electronics on British planes used to have a strip of plastic explosive on them during WW2. On bailing out the crew would pull a cord that set a timer, I expect this is still the case today so why not include this for all military electronics.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 08:29:02 pm
content: I remember a teardown of a credit card reader that was obviously designed to disable itself if disassembled. It won't stop teardowns, but it will greatly hinder repairs and reverse engineering.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 08:36:25 pm
content: Quote.One of Mike's

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 10:28:35 pm
content: The word has it that the old pay-per-view decoders also had some anti-reverse engineering tricks build into them.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 07:52:50 am
content: Hardly a new thing.A long time ago (mid '80s) I was writing poker machine games for 'independent operators'. Mostly they used imported, standard and quite simple boards with a 6502 CPU. But we needed the games to be resistant to reverse engineering for various reasons. What to do?One solution that worked very well, was a scheme I designed that used a piggy-back module plugged into the CPU socket. As well as a 6502 it carried a Xilinx 2064 LCA (what FPGAs were called then.) This provided on-the-fly decryption of the code as it was fetched by the 6502.Ah, you say, but you could just plug an emulator into the 6502 socket, and see the decrypted code, so who cares if the EPROMs were encrypted!Well, no. Because it turns out that all emulators run the memory bus in slightly different ways than a plain 6502. They do specific, recognizable things that a CPU never does. Scan memory linearly for instance, or sit reading one location over and over. And a few other things.So I was able to include 'emulator detector' circuitry in the LCA. For safety it required a few of the 'abnormal things' to happen before the circuit would be sure someone was trying to reverse engineer the code. But when it did...If the configuration of an LCA (FPGA) includes a lot of tri-state buffers hard-wired to fight each other when enabled, the chip goes pfuuut in milliseconds. Not enough to blow a hole in the plastic, just enough to kill it mysteriously. At that time the 2064 was quite expensive.We never had any problem with competition ripping off those games.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 08:39:12 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on February 21, 2014, 08:36:25 pmAha, very interesting. That is why the credit card reader went into ERROR mode after it was left unplugged all winter (for a seasonal campground business). The supercap ran out.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 09:20:41 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 22, 2014, 07:52:50 amA dumb logic analyser logging the contents of the bus would probably be enough to capture most if not all of the code... and be practically undetectable, unless you did some analogue stuff for measuring signal levels etc. I've seen timing glitches being exploited for this sort of protection, however.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 09:34:04 am
content: Like this one I took apart....undersidebySeanB_ZA, on Flickr

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 09:59:32 am
content: I'm guessing, that the drones which were shot down, got cloned in a few moths. I mean they spend billions on it, and the enemy just takes a screwdriver to torture the information from it. Makes sense if you ask me.But I cannot see this as commercial products. I mean if you want to clone something, you buy 10 of them, and after the first 3 blew up, you will know how not to trigger the self destruct.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 11:08:45 am
content: Quote from: czdt8m on February 21, 2014, 06:20:23 pmWell then, someone has to come up with hack to disable that self destruct mechanism. Given stupid luck, im sure its something simple like put device submerged in water or something...

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 11:30:57 am
content: or more realistically collect 2 of them, 1 to work out all the booby traps, and a second to catch with its pants down,if you wanted to be fancy you could use a glass diode as a photo-diode, i would bet that would be a hard one to catch,

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 11:38:09 am
content: Easy to bypass as well using an IR camera and working in the dark. You will need to have it allow a certain amount of light not to trigger it through the case, or via the sides or gaps in the casing.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 03:57:10 pm
content: Hainan Island incident:For the next 26 minutes the crew of the EP-3 carried out an emergency plan which included destroying sensitive items on board the aircraft, such as electronic equipment related to intelligence gathering, documents and data. Part of this plan involved pouring freshly brewed hot coffee into disk drives and motherboards.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 04:30:15 pm
content: I remember that!I was in the US at the time, which probably meant it was even broader on the news then it would have at home.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 09:00:06 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 21, 2014, 08:29:02 pmCredit card readers are a pretty good use case for this technology. I remember a few years ago a story came out that someone had walked into a store and pulled the credit card terminal off of an unattended checkout counter. A few hours later they walked back in and replaced it. Somehow no one noticed until a few weeks or months later when a whole bunch of stolen credit card numbers were linked to that store. Turns out the culprit had installed a bluetooth-UART module in the reader, then camped out nearby and slurped up all those juicy credit card numbers.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 09:33:12 pm
content: Securing the credit card terminal does very little if whole system gets hacked, like Tandy had incident. Hackers went throw the backdoor in system that was poorly protected and used systems own update mechanism to install their version of software to those POS terminals..

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 01:38:14 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 22, 2014, 09:20:41 amYes, of course. All protections are just an inconvenience, of some degree of difficulty.The objectives for 1st-layer protection schemes are to cause the attacker to fail, repeatedly, due to unexpected traps. Each failure costs them time and money, and often the difficulty of obtaining/stealing another functioning system to experiment on.At that time (mid to late 80s) in Australia, simple 6502 emulators were cheaper than general purpose logic analyzers. Also the logic analyzers (that I was aware of) didn't have good integration with PCs, so building up a code image would take time.So anyone trying to crack that system would be most likely to try an emulator. Then the machine would be dead. They'd think they static zapped it, or something, and obtain another. It might take them two or three cycles to realize the thing was dying whenever they used an emulator. Given the barriers to obtaining replacements, that seemed to be sufficient obstruction.Oh, and there were also some software bombs, that attempted to detect code alterations (and only actually executed very rarely) and if something was suspect they'd cause the operator of the ripped-off game a _lot_ of financial pain. In terms of loss-making payout ratios. But I never got any feedback on whether those were ever activated.We weren't trying to foil the NSA. Just some pretty low tech gambling machine operators.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 05:59:41 am
content: what would be the point of having self destructive devices commercially? Military planes have explosive bolts, but civillian ones dont because there is no purpose for them. the internet is a different story. besides, there would have to me an explosive charge to do it properly. i doubt anyone would want that. the only analog i can think of is anti reverse engineering stuff put into phones. Especially the chips that wipe the memory when the silicon's light sensors are tripped. that already happens, and that is more or less fine for educational purposes.

author: sdg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 09:33:01 am
content: Quote from: smashedProton on February 23, 2014, 05:59:41 amWell, ink-jet printers, household appliances, TV sets, car electronics, etc have been self-destructing for quite some time now, and noone seems to object...

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 01:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: sdg on February 23, 2014, 09:33:01 amPeople object, its just not enough to change practices. After a while people "accept" it.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 02:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: smashedProton on February 23, 2014, 05:59:41 amIn the case I mentioned, it wasn't consumer electronics. At that time gaming (gambling) was effectively unregulated but gray, so nobody was going to sue for copyright infringement. The machines run by various operators mostly used the same cheap imported boards, and games were programmed in EPROMs on the boards. Gamblers are finicky, and like some games, others not. So if you had a game players liked, your advantage could vanish the moment some competitor got ahold of one of your boards - if there was no protection scheme.

author: kolonelkadat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 05:33:36 pm
content: Quote from: smashedProton on February 23, 2014, 05:59:41 amI dont know about airplanes, but my mercedes has explosive bolts in the door hinges.Personally, I never would have thought the answer to "how can we make this car safer" would be "add explosives that detonate when the car crashes." I guess the take away here would be "don't estimate the entirety of humanity by the limits of your own reckoning."

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 05:42:34 pm
content: Don't forget the small explosive charges which expanding gases are intended to protect your face and head and that are *required* for all modern cars.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 05:47:18 pm
content: Not sure why you want the doors to fall off in a collision and compromise the passenger cage. I have seen pyrotechnic seatbelt tensioners and SRS airbags, never door removal. Saw a Porsche Cayenne 4S that got T boned on the driver's door and spun 50m down the other street than it was, and the driver was basically uninjured aside from glass cuts. Even though the vehicle was bent like a banana, and all the drivers side door was a crumpled ruin, the door still would open and close and lock, even with the protesting sheet metal. Impressive as the other vehicle went most of the way through a shop window. Owner was a little upset, the other driver was uninsured ( minibus taxi) and the Porsche was just over a month old.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 05:51:42 pm
content: Door bolt (unlike airbags) would firepost-crash, for easy escape of the vehicle.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 06:01:03 pm
content: Chatman's Peak drive. Screech, crash......... crash ...................... crash ............... crump ................ crump ............ crash ..................crump .............................. thud. Mercedes went off and landed 100m or so down. If the doors had not stayed closed then the driver would not have survived. MB made an advert by taking another vehicle of the same model and driving it off at the same spot with a camera in it.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 06:23:35 pm
content: Maybe. I would hope the Mercedes engineers (and the TÜV people) are smart enough to release the doors only after a few seconds of non-acceleration. Not a few seconds after the first acceleration. Also he was wearing seatbelts.And I am sure you can come up with an example why that too would fail. I do not pretend to have all answers. But I do know some brands indeed have explosive bolts in the doors, regardless if it is silly or not. And I do have reasonable confidence in Mercedes and TÜV to think the implementation would not be entirely stupid.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 06:34:36 pm
content: I have driven that road, currently it is restricted because of rock falls. Really nice views off it, and you get nervous driving towards what looks like the horizon.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 06:41:17 pm
content: I can imagine. I love for example Norway exactly for those along the Fjord roads, and also the snaky roads up the Fjord botn valleys.Did the Ocean road near Melbourne, AU also for that reason (the one going to I believe called the 7 sisters and Bells beach). Still not been to Kaaptown though, they always send me to J'burg. Any tips for SA?Edit: other then Chapman's Peak drive that is. That one is now noted on my list.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 12:48:59 pm
content: I had a washing machine that was designed to self-destruct after few years use.

author: Hex173t
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 08:13:28 pm
content: Quote from: smashedProton on February 23, 2014, 05:59:41 amSome commercial planes do have explosive bolts. Saab 340 certainly does, they link the main gear doors to the main gear. If there's a failure that prevents normal hydraulic extension of the gear, the crew can pull the free fall handle (can't remember if theres as switch to toggle as well) and the bolt will blow and release the doors, allowing the mains to extend.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 08:51:53 pm
content: To bring this full circle from planes back toward electronics, (by way of an airplane maker, ironically) Boeing recently introduced an android smartphone for government and defense customers, with lots of security featureshttp://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57619608-94/boeings-black-smartphone-will-deactivate-if-tampered-with/"The Boeing Black phone is manufactured as a sealed device both with epoxy around the casing and with screws, the heads of which are covered with tamper proof covering to identify attempted disassembly," the letter says. "Any attempt to break open the casing of the device would trigger functions that would delete the data and software contained within the device and make the device inoperable."I'd love to see one of these featured on a teardown tuesday, even if the phone is rendered inoperable. I expect it will be a while before Dave can get his hands on one, though.I don't think that sort of self-destruct technology will ever become very widespread, because for most gadgets, it would be an extra cost with no benefit. But there are niche applications. I could kind of see that the movie studios would love to see it for certain DRM-critical devices. Maybe they'd like to put something like that technology into the stuff they use to digitally distribute movies to theaters?