Boring topic - drilling RPM range etc - affordable bench drill, German market - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 03:09:45 pm
content: Howdy!I'm looking for a bench drill for hobby use, a couple weekends of use a year, not a lot of space.Hence the price/pain point is easily reachedItmustoperate at 230V single-phase.Weighing more than I can carry (without inducing back injury), alone, is an excluding criterion - I need to be able to move this around if needed.I don't need to drill 20mm diameter, 100mm deep, into a stainless steel block.I don't have much experience with this, was so far only using a hand drill for everything (and not happy with accuracy, esp. angles, of course),and am looking for a seizable improvement over those kinda results.(I have seen stand-alone kinda guides with lever, for mounting an existing drill, but my drills don't fit such things and buying this and a new, not too crappy drill, well, might as well...)Drilling small-ish things mostly, inwood and plastic, perhaps some aluminium and brass- and more rarely, steel of a few mm, if ever.Things you might do when building musical instruments (e.g. synthesizers in 1970's style, guitar stuff), DIY lab gear, one or the other smaller radio antenna. Probably not anything or much mechanical stuff that moves.I'mnotgoing to build combustion engines, not even small onesI've found this supposedly optimal RPM table for different materials at different drill diameters:(It's Wood, Steel, Stainless steel, Aluminum, Brass, Plastics)https://www.ellmitron.com/media/4598/file/static/doc/drehzahltabelle-bohren_3366.pdfI'll get back to that.I have read about typical German eqivalent "home depot" (Baumarkt) gear as pretty crappy esp. with bad radial runout.So I found some people who have been reasonably happy with products like the following, supposedly, while made in China, designed in Europe and with decent quality control.The first one has a guaranteed runout of < 0.03 mm, the other one only claims a reasonably good one, without saying a number - not a good sign I guess.The things is that the second one has a wider RPM range.https://www.stuermer-machines.com/brands/optimum/category/product/optimum-drilling-machines/optidrill-dq-18-3191042/https://www.bernardo-maschinen.com/tb-20-t-bernardo-tischbohrmaschine-230-v.htmlWhat caught my eye was, though, that the 2nd one has a wider RPM range: 180 - 2770 vs. only 600 – 2400 for the 1st one.Even that already does not cover a lot of materials and diameters from the table linked above.Esp. plastic with its low RPM requirement (due to heat?)So I now wonder, how important is using optimal RPM / how much can you deviate without getting horrible results?The 2nd machine is ~ 100€ more expensive than the other, but the only thing, for met, it seems to have over the 1st is wider RPM range, while the 1st one has a guaranteed runout.(I also saw an OptiDrill with 0.02 runout, 100€ more, similar small RPM range)What's most important?I have heard claims that drills of that kind are of a light construction that might make them bend and reduce accuracy.The question is - in what scenario? Perhaps not if I drill through a piece of pine or block of plastic?I don't care about stainless steel.Please try to not use your own profesisonal or "advanced hobbyist" demands on such a machine as a measuring stick vs. my humble actual needs (probably).An oft found attitude like "anything below 1000 EUR, used, is crap", is probably not helpful (unless absolutely accurate - but seeing others actually do stuff with those things, I doubt it).I'd prefer a sober, up to date (to current market) gauging of "what can I do with how much money, and is that enough for what *I* need".I'd be surprised if I couldn't get a vast improvement over my free-hand drilling on a budget as roughly outlined by the examples given.But let's hear it

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 03:40:27 pm
content: Those are probably generic made-in-China goods.From review of the second offering:QuoteInitially (1974), I thought speed range might be the most important. Later, I realized it is not. It is very easy now to swap that motor for a 3-phase or DC and use a speed controller (assuming the current motor doesn't meet that need). What is important to me is runout of the spindle and smooth operation, how well does the spindle move, can you lock the spindle in position, bearings, quality of construction, clamping options, and chuck precision are important. Both options appear to have table T-slots for clamping. That is good.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 04:55:33 pm
content: I own and use the Bosch PBD 40 and am very satisfied with it.Don't know if it's within your budget, though. EDIT: followed your links.https://www.bosch-diy.com/de/de/p/pbd-40-0603b07000-v100026579

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 05:26:06 pm
content: Optimum are actually quite decent machines.But, changing speed by changing belts is a pin in the ass.OTOH, I agree with Benta, take a look at Bosch PBD 40.It is not as sturdy ad Optimum you shown, it has aluminum frame. And it is a bit smaller.Not such a large capacity as that Optimum. But you said you don't need that.But, it has electronic RPM control, laser pointer etc.It is very handy, uses little space, and very quick to setup and use.They are available at many shops (especially in Germany I would guess), just go to some shop and see it in person.Optimum would make sense if you wanted more capacity and would like to work with metal more seriously.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 05:40:18 pm
content: Concerning drill speed/feed: don't sweat it.It's not critical in any way for the materials with which you're working. You'll very quickly get a feel for it.For steel, especially stainless it's a different story.Your concern about runout: if you intend using normal spiral drills, it's of no consequence at all. Drill flex will be much larger.Proper punch-marking to give the drill a precise starting point is much more important. Plus drilling in stages.As an example for a 10 mm hole: punch -> 2 mm -> 6 mm -> 10mmNormal HSS spiral drills are fine for wood, plastics and aluminium .For brass you need a separate set, where the cutting edges are ground to zero degrees.Cheers.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 05:53:53 pm
content: Benta is right. I have a very well equipped home shop and can drill/bore very accurate holes in any material if I need to. Yet I still have a little $150 cheap bench top drill press that gets a LOT of use. It’s belt driven but I pretty much never change the speed on it. I would start with a cheap unit and only upgrade if you feel it is insufficient for your needs. You may never feel that!

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 06:15:50 pm
content: My perspective may be a bit different than yours. I’m a complete tool nut.In my experience every time I purchase even a cheap tool that performs a particular task I end up wondering how I did without it. I have a couple of cheap (big box made in China) bench drill presses one in the garage and one at the cottage. I made do with them for 20+ years and they are a huge improvement over a hand drill in many cases. That being said too often the size limitation precluded using it.I ended up getting a used made in Canada Buffalo brand (full size) 40+ year old, that had a good reputation on the hobby machinist forums. This same brand were also offered in a bench version. It has turned out to be great and the quality is far superior to either of the big box ones. I do drill steel and sometimes holes up to about 25mm so adequate power and rigidity help. I did a couple of upgrades a used eBay 3 phase motor that now runs via a used EBay VFD provides speed control and more torque. IMO speed is actually pretty important for large holes, with the correct speed the bit will simply power through the material effortlessly where it would be a hack job at high speed. I also added electric table height.So in short my suggestion would be find a good old used bench model. Perhaps you can mount it on a narrow cart so you can roll it around easily?One other thing consider getting a vise and an easy way to hold it down, I use the modified bicycle seat post quick release levers.

author: bill_c
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 06:16:54 pm
content: If you mostly drill large holes or plastic that melts easy, you may want lower RPM range, only drawback is that it may take longer to drill smaller holes. Run out may not be super important since you have been drilling by hand in the past. Setup and methods may have more affect on results. Get a good light, scribe, center drill, and center punch. For metals and most plastics, the drill bit will find the center mark, just watch the way the bit deflects (while turning) and move the part so bit remains straight when touching center mark. For wood, you will need a template (usually steel) to hold the bit on location since the hard and soft parts of wood grain will push the drill bit around even if center marked. The other option for wood is to use stub length drill bits which don't bent as much, and proper clamping to keep the wood in place.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 06:24:42 pm
content: Quote from: bill_c on January 23, 2022, 06:16:54 pmThis is good advice and how I've been doing it for 50 years. The tip about using a template for wood is an important one.Otherwise the punch mark rules.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 06:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: Jester on January 23, 2022, 06:15:50 pmThis ignores the fact, that there is absolutely no market for hobbyist-sized machines. All the Buffalos, Deckels, Schaublins etc. are all in the hobby workshops of people with money. They do not appear on the market. And if they do, prices are exorbitant.The machines are great, yes. But you can't buy them anywhere.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 06:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 23, 2022, 06:31:36 pmInteresting I guess to some extent the same is happening here, I had to look for a while and drive 200km to get mine for a good price $200. I did find a couple that were close but they were aware of what they had and were holding out for 10x the original price.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 07:20:24 pm
content: Good advice in this thread. I also have the Bosch PDB40 for hobby use and I'm very happy with it. I use it mostly for aluminium and steel sometimes. The most convenient feature with this drill is the variable speed and that it is small and doesn't take a lot of space. The work light is nice, but I never use the laser, it isn't precise enough. Another nice feature is the electronic zeroing function, so that you can drill holes to a precise depth. I agree it isn't meant to be used for serious metal work, due to the aluminium frame. But for hobby use it is perfect.I didn't like the original chuck because of the cumbersome lock function, so I changed it to a Röhm Supra S 13 871050 Mount 1/2" -20.https://eshop247.roehm.biz/DE-en/quick-action-drill-chuck-supra-s-13s-mount-12-20-light-version-14433.html?tab=product-variants-tabYou can find it cheaper on Amazon:https://www.amazon.de/-/en/871050-Supra-Keyless-Chuck/dp/B000ZEH8N8/ref=sr_1_1This chuck is more stable, more precise and it is easier to change drills (according to someone else that also fitted on the PDB40 it causes less wobble). Due to precision it grips smaller drills better (down to 1 mm) and still goes up to 13mm.Compared to big floor drills I've used in the past with belt drive and hard to change rpm, it is like comparing horse and sleigh to a modern car (at least from usability and convenience).Drilling is something that you have to practice to get the feel for. Good advice to punch and drill in steps. Get a couple of "step drills" for drilling larger holes than 10mm. Use lubrication when drilling in steel. WD40 or CRC is fine (almost any lubrication helps). Watch drill temp, do not push too hard. If the drill gets too hot (there will be smoke and smell, so you will know it), it will not stay sharp any more and is essentially broken.Keep in mind that a drill press isn't a CNC, so you should never cause any side pressure on the drill bit or chuck. The bearings aren't built for it and will be damaged in the long run.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 08:47:36 pm
content: I have a small drill press which I bought for around $100 very long time ago. I bought it to drill holes in PCBs, but I use it for everything - I drill wood, aluminum, copper, some steel. The speed can be adjusted between 620 and 3100 rpm by changing the belt, but I always keep it at 1100 rpm and never felt a need to change the speed.The runout is 0.1mm if measured with a short carbide drill bit. It is worse with regular drill bits, especially if you use a long drill bit such as 1/2 (12 mm). But I've never felt the runout was a problem. I don't think you can get good runout with a drill chuck anyway.It is 1/3 HP, so it is lacking power sometimes, but on a bright side this might have saved me few fingers over the years.The only regret is the size - the tallest I can drill is less than 8" (200 mm), the table is too small and doesn't work well when you put on something heavy, doesn't even have enough space for a decent drill vise.If I ever buy a new one, it'll be looking for something big, sturdy, and heavy.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 09:04:13 pm
content: I agree that a drill chuck is not the best for runout, but good ones are much better. I have a couple of sizes and two keyless versions. One is a real Albrecht Serios 801 and the other is a knock off from China. The Albrecht was purchased before 1990, so I just checked its current pri$e. Egads >$400. Now, I need to put it in my will. In any event, my ordinary decent quality 3/8" keyed chuck handles carbide drills with 1/8" shanks down to the smallest sizes I have tried to use (#72?). Any breakage I have had was due to something I did.On Topic: In thinking about what the TS wants, I thought a Central Machinery micro-drill/mill #47158 would work. They can be realigned and fitted to work reasonably, except the fine feed depth gauge is garbage. I use a dial indicator when depth is an issue. I paid about $200 or less in 2003, but unfortunately they are no longer offered. Its replacement is $600. They might be on eBay.de. I have attached a picture for reference. I also noted some cheaper versions that had only a screw feed for drilling. I would not want that ever, except when milling.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 09:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on January 23, 2022, 09:04:13 pmI have one of those, bought around the same time. It is an amazingly versatile little guy to have around. I've even used it to resurface heat sinks, using a fly cutter...There's no inflation, is what we keep having to tell ourselves as prices keep doubling everywhere we look...

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 09:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on January 23, 2022, 09:04:13 pmSomehow you seem to have missed the wordGermanin theHEADLINE.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 09:33:55 pm
content: Did you miss my reference to "ebay.de"Quote from: jpanhalt on January 23, 2022, 09:04:13 pmI don't know whether you have Harbor Freight, maybe not, but Chinese manufacturers are so promiscuous, I figured something similar or identical may have been sold in Germany.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 09:51:34 pm
content: I think you need to take a holiday outside the US to learn what the world looks like.Wal-Mart tried to establish itself in the EU and failed miserably. And Harbor Freight would be the total joke here.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 10:19:24 pm
content: I have been to the what is the modern EU many times, mostly before the EU. Kiel, Munich, and especially the technical museum there. Loved it. It was one of the most impressive museums I have seen and had an actual V2 rocket.* I can still imagine the workmanship on the dirigible ribs that were made, the submarine exhibits, and most disturbing, all of the ship models that had been sunk. Nevertheless, I doubt the Chinese manufacturers made the "micro-mill/drill" only for the US.What that "micro mill/drill" provides is a decent drill press with a stable spindle with an MT2 female socket. As or milling, it it nowhere near a Bridgeport or similar, but with care and a lot of time, one can still get reasonable accuracy.* I maybe a little weird, but when I visited a foreign country during my working years, I visited the museums and libraries well before the usual destinations. Imagine the thrill of an 2nd gen. American holding the original works of Amerigo Vespucci in his hands (Saville, my host had a little pull).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 11:57:54 pm
content: For small sized projects Proxon has some nice options. I have a Proxxon Micromot (which is a hand held tool) and drill-stand which I use for drilling PCBs and other small things (holes up to 3mm). The one I have has lasted over 30 years so far.Besides that Proxxon also has regular drill presses. Most of their stuff is aimed at model making / precission wood working.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 02:04:22 pm
content: Wow, thanks guys, that's some material to digest!"for wood drilling, use a template" - how would that look like?As for the "Bosch PDB40", I read some bad things about it so I stopped considereing it. When I have more time maybe I find it again and post it here, maybe it's not as bad. Although if there is high production tolerance and the people who are happy with it were lucky...(but I don't remember right now what it was)Proxxon... they seem to be available nowhere currently.Changing belts for speeds definitely does not sound like a joy to use, but if the overall machine is better, ... (let's see if I can find the Bosch complaints again later..)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 03:02:48 pm
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on January 24, 2022, 02:04:22 pmThen take a look at Optimum OPTIdrill DQ 20V or OPTIdrill DQ 14...https://www.stuermer-machines.com/brands/optimum/category/product/optimum-drilling-machines/optidrill-dq-14-3191040/https://www.stuermer-machines.com/brands/optimum/category/product/optimum-drilling-machines/optidrill-dq-20v-3191080/They have specified runout less than 0.03 mm... Those are solid machines.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 04:39:26 pm
content: Except for a small hobby-quality drill press I use for PCBs, every drill press I have ever used required changing the pulleys (with the same belt) to change speeds.It is not difficult.The trick is to shift the belt first on the shaft where you go from larger diameter to smaller, then encourage the belt onto the matching pulley on the other shaft as you rotate manually.(Be absolutely positive to kill power, and be careful about pinching your fingers.)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 04:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 23, 2022, 09:51:34 pmWhy would HF be a total joke? - there is definitely a niche for tools that won't be used many times, so don't have to be superbly made (and therefore modestly priced!)In other news, I notice that Aldi seems to be doing well in the US. If it works for food, why not tools?

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 04:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 24, 2022, 04:41:49 pmHF is the lowest level of cheap Chinese tools and would be torn to pieces by the EU trade press.I used to subscribe to a couple of US trade magazines. All reviews were so gushingly positive that they were completely useless. Even the worst POS was praised in the highest tones.I stopped the subscriptions a quickly as I could.In the EU, the trade press take their readers seriously instead of just kowtowing to the advertisers.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 04:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on January 24, 2022, 02:04:22 pmSimply a steel or brass plate with a hole. You clamp it to your workpiece. It will stop the drill from skidding/flexing.QuoteProxxon is really for very small scale work and much lighter than the Bosch.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 05:00:38 pm
content: @TimFoxRe: V-belt drivesIf you haven't tried Fenner Drives "Power Twist" adjustable belts, I highly recommend them. They are much smoother running, particularly for the small radiuses one encounters on drill presses and so forth. At first, I was quite skeptical, then after trying one years ago on my cabinet model shaper/moulder, that is all I will use. Be careful in your source. There are many imitations, including ones sold on Amazon and even using the Power Twist TM (I got burned by that last year). One obvious difference is that actual Fenner drives have the links labeled (attached). QC Supply (qcsupply.com) is the source I eventually used. I am sure there are others. I have not actually tried the cheap knock-offs on a machine. I just wasn't impressed with how they felt.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 05:22:24 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 24, 2022, 04:58:00 pmYeah, "enthusiastic" sales and marketing bods can be a bit of a pain....On the other hand, not every product you buy has to be high-end to do an acceptable job (if you are a billionaire, different rules apply...).With HF, you kind of have to pick and choose. Some of their products are very poor, but you just ignore those... caveat emptor! - An example of one of their good products, they have a 12V car battery float charger often available on sale for around $5. I have a few of them (4 or 5). I tested them on the bench, and they performed very well. They work great in the garage, keeping various vehicles, powered equipment, and stand-by batteries alive during the winter season. Not one of those chargers has ever broken or malfunctioned (some of them >10 years old). I could have bought a pile of nice microprocessor controlled float chargers instead... but I would have been several $100 poorer, for what benefit?

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 08:51:50 pm
content: I'm happy with my (German made) Proxxon TBM220 with the optional chuck. It's intended for model making and definitely on the smaller side. I intended to use it for PCB drilling, etc. but I've been surprised how capable it is with bigger stuff. I've drilled 6mm holes into mild steel without a problem.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 09:45:02 pm
content: Bosch PBD 40:Ok, here comes a DeepL translation of German amazon reviews:QuoteThe last pragraph does not sound encouraging!QuoteThey mention the weird wheel on that thing.I do rmember actually trying that in a local shop, and I much prefer any 1 to 3 lever thingies on machines I tried to the indeed awkward handling that wheel providesAs for the Proxxon TBM220, the maximum diameter of drill one can use (3.2mm or something IIRC) is too small to be useful for my stuff.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 09:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fred27 on January 24, 2022, 08:51:50 pmI get as impressed by a big Tormach CNC machining center as the next guy, but I have even more respect for the guy that can crank out nice work using modest equipment by using skill and imagination!

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 10:41:25 pm
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on January 24, 2022, 09:45:02 pmThat guy is either talking through his hat or paid by competition.First, he/she apparently expects a Ferrari 458, when the budget is for a +15 years old VW Golf/Rabbit. I'm already slapping my thighs (remember, I own a PBD 40).Let's take the complaints one by one:1: The column is a round, ground, polished steel tube. I see absolutely no deflection when tightening the head clamp.2: the handwheel needs getting used to. I agree there, but after working with the machine a few times it's no longer an issue.3: Not true. There is a bit of play if the head is not clamped, but this is true for every round-column drill.4: This is true, and also true for every round-column machine on the market. But the play is not as large as he/she claims. And the laser helps here. Additionally, needing to move the head during a drilling operations is bad setup, and even worse: bad workmanship.5: Drill chucks are never precise. If someone believes that, I have an Eiffel Tower for sale.6: So what? The Laser is for rough alignment, nothing else. Ignore that and imagine you don't have a Laser. Most drills don't.7: No comment. That's too subjective and emotional to me.The last paragraph is the final joke. "Expensive drill bits fall on the table...". This person does not know how to mount a drill in a chuck? And should the drill fall, it will not land on the table (there's a hole there), further, the table is aluminium and can not damage a drill.Laughable.And apparently written in really ill will.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 10:48:44 pm
content: No matter what you're usually doing, the lower speed it can go and the heavier (i.e. rigid) it is, the better. If you need to move your heavy drill press they tend to quickly disassemble to manageable chunks, motor comes off the head, head comes off the pillar, table comes off the pillar, then you have 4 easy to move parts.So of the two, the one that weights nearly twice as much despite not being much larger, and goes down to 180 rpm.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 10:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 24, 2022, 10:41:25 pmI generally trust the Bosch brand, I can't immediately recall ever being disappointed with the quality of anything I bought from that company. A bit like 3M. Not the cheapest, but you do get better quality for your money, in my experience. So I would tend to agree with you that the badly thought out review sounds like the work of an idiot, even though I have never used the product in question.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2022, 10:56:41 pm
content: @BrokenYugo:I'm with you and will plead for heavy iron every time.But that wasn't the use case for the OP.If that changes, I have other suggestions. The problem is only that one might succumb to "heavy iron machine fever".

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 12:03:16 am
content: Thanks!Hah, I didn't notice the bit about his drills falling out of the chuck... that seems weird indeed.But I have seen a lot of hate for the "Bosch Green" type stuff in general, esp. in woodworker forums. Perhaps that's from heavy duty use people.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 12:19:37 am
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on January 25, 2022, 12:03:16 amWell, Bosch positions it's "green" tools for hobbyists, and the "blue" for professionals. This mainly applies to hand tools.There's no chance in h*ll that a professional would ever use a PDB 40; thus "green". This goes for the rest of the OptiDrill etc. machines as well.You're in the Hobbyist zone. Live with it.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 01:37:30 am
content: Quote from: Benta on January 24, 2022, 10:56:41 pmOld iron disease is always a risk, and the way I figure it putting someone in front of a machine that carries any risk of being less than ideal will make them lust after the old iron more. You always want to overspec this sort of stuff, running machine tools near/beyond the limit isn't fun, if they say they don't want to punch big deep holes in steel, a machine that can do so in a pinch is probably about right.I should also mention that I personally consider anything that won't go below 200 RPM or so a wood oriented machine, you can get away with over speeding drill tooling to some extent, especially HSS, but it is a lot more fun not to. That's probably the biggest complaint I have about my personal drill press, a heavy (~70kg assembled) WW2 era Atlas-Craftsman (consumer grade back in the day) bench model that I really lucked my way into, if it weren't currently in storage I'd probably build some sort of reduction for it.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 08:14:42 am
content: Many seem to agree that changing the chuck on the Bosch PBD40 is an improvement worth doing. The original chuck is reportedly designed for an impact hand drill, that's the reason for the weird lock mechanism.How to change the chuck. He also measures runout of old vs new chuck and you can see for yourself:Some people even go to the extent of changing bearings on the PBD40 to better quality bearings with less play.Here is one that replaced a bearing. There are subtitles:

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 09:25:40 am
content: I have a couple of those chinese Baumarkt grade drill presses. The first on I bought when I was a teenager from a brand called Interkrenn. It was a good start and even though the machine cost under 100DM back then and it has seen a lot of abuse it's still working over 20 years later. It's biggest drawbacks were the weak motor and it was too small. It was reasonably lightweight so it can be moved easily. It's basically the same as the smallest drill presses you'll find in any Baumarkt.I've upgraded to a big machine later. This one is a Güde brand and much bigger, can not be moved by one person easily.I've used that Bosch drill press at a friends workshop and I have to say I do not like it. Personal preferrence, it feels a bit plasticky.For hobby use I think these chinese machines are absolutely fine. Changing the speed is not something you are likely to do often when drilling in plastics or aluminium. I've never found it much of a hassle. Maybe you'll want to upgrade to a good quality chuck.If I was to buy a new drill press these days I'd steer clear of the stuff they sell in shops. I'd go for Optimum or Bernardo. These are basically the same machines but built to higher specs than Güde & Co. I've got a Bernardo table saw that I really like and a nice Optimum bench grinder.The small Proxxon drill press is nice but not suitable for much more than PCB drilling. Maybe a few small 3-6mm holes at a pinch. I've got one of those for my PCB manufacturing station.You'll want to invest in a good set of drills. I'd recommend HSS-G grade drills from a good brand, do not buy Baumarkt rubbish!Good place to look for chuck & drills (and all other tools really):https://www.hoffmann-group.com/DE/de/hom/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvOf6uMrM9QIVCeN3Ch08jQ-OEAAYASAAEgKiNfD_BwE

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 12:35:59 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 23, 2022, 05:40:18 pmWhat are they called?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 12:40:25 pm
content: In our shop, they were called "dubbed off." I have also seen them listed as specifically for brass. The problem with a sharp bit in brass (and plastic) is that they tend to dig in. The flat angle gives more of a scraping action.Rather than buy a special bit for more money, just get a regular bit and grind the edge off.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 01:55:42 pm
content: I wonder how a thing like this with a "gallow" for allowing wider e.g. pieces of wood to be drilled into, is really feasible in that price range.I imagine having a "lever" there might invite bending / inaccuracy if the construction is ligher, eh?https://www.bernardo-maschinen.com/rbm-780-t-bernardo-radialbohrmaschine-230-volt.html

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 02:11:15 pm
content: Such radial drills have been around a long time. I can't remember ever needing one; although, they do have a use.When I have needed a vertical hole (better than by eye) in a piece larger than my drill press can accommodate, I just make a guide/jig out of hardwood. Hold that against the surface and drill. Did that for a wood garage door segment I needed to rebuild with doweled joints.That table looks a lot like many others, and might present a problem for clamping. The apparent T-slots in your original choices are similar to a milling table. They make setups easy.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 03:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on January 25, 2022, 02:11:15 pmAh, right! Kinda useless of you can't keep the thing drilling into stable enough to properly drill into it, eh?Clamping you say. Just using regular ones like this thing here, or are there especially apt ones for such tables?https://www.backwinkel.de/out/pictures/master/product/1/78175_a_corvus.pngI also have a small-ish, flat, vice lying around somewhere which I think is made for mounting on such plates, relatively heavy. I guess that'd be more the thing for metal partsWhat kind of wood to use as a sacrificial surface, to prevent "exit holes" getting ugly? I so far never had reakky good results using some type of rather soft-ish like pine wood, that I felt was cheap anough so sacrificeBut maybe it was also due to wrong RPM with my hand drill...So i guess these are in my focus now:https://www.bernardo-maschinen.com/tb-16-t-bernardo-tischbohrmaschine-230-v.htmlhttps://www.bernardo-maschinen.com/tb-20-t-bernardo-tischbohrmaschine-230-v.htmlThe 2nd one was posted above, the 1st one not - it's a bit smaller and ~100 € cheaper. RPM range is somewhat worse in the cheaper one (but still better than the Optimum similarly priced one).I guess I need a good night's sleep to get some sort of divine inspiration to decide whether 100€ more are worth being able to drill 25mm into plasticAfter all, I do sometimes use MIDI (DIN5) jacks and stuff, that's already 16mm. A hole through a piece of plastic to shove through 25mm PVC gray cable conduit pipe could sometimes be useful)

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 08:18:59 pm
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on January 25, 2022, 12:35:59 pmWell, you can call them "brass drills" if you like. They can be bought ready-made, but certainly not at HF.Most hobbyists just buy normal HSS spiral drills and grind the cutting edges to zero degrees. BTW, such drills are also essential for drilling cast iron.Brass really "grabs" the drill, but cast iron is much worse.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 08:25:59 pm
content: If you look at clamping methods for mills you will see all sort of examples. Here is one:It's a lot easier working from the top with dial indicators to get accurate positioning rather than trying to use a C-clamp against an irregular surface on the bottom of the table. Is that always needed? No, I hand hold most stuff on my drill press -- almost never on my mill. For example, if you are making a counterbored hole, it is just easier. Of course, I am just guessing from the pictures that the earlier choices have T-slots. If they are just parallel slots rather than radial slots, then that is not much of an advantage if any. They may also be a ridiculous dimension, so getting good clamps to fit could be a problem.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 08:41:16 pm
content: This is drifting into a different space now.There an immense difference between a vertical mill with coordinate table, precision spindle, collet holders for milling tools etc. (I ALSO have one of those) and a drill press.Try to define your ambition (and budget) level right. A vertical mill will cost 5...X times a drill press. And it takes much longer to set up for just drilling a hole. And the tools bits are really expensive (and so are the accessories).It's already been said several times: spiral drills flex, so punch marking is the #1 starting point. NOT runout.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 08:42:42 pm
content: @jpanhalt:dial indicators in a drill press? Are you serious?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 09:01:37 pm
content: @BentaCome on, I only used the mill as an example of clamping from the top. I couldn't find an example that was set up on a drill press. No way is a drill press ever going to be a mill -- particularly those aluminum ones. Nevertheless, I wish my drill press (JET, made in Japan, circa 1970's) had T-slots. "T-slots" on the table of a drill press would be a plus to me. Don't try to imply any other intent on my part. It seemed clear to me that the TS didn't quite understand how they are used based on the subsequent clamps he showed. So, I showed an example.I wanted to add a comment about the different Bosch lines that you mentioned earlier. I find that disappointing. Black and Decker was a respectable American tool through the 1960's. Then in the early 1970's (it seems), it began marketing a consumer grade. B&D's home office was in Towson, MD. I went to their showroom and was very disappointed. As I recall, they had green plastic bodies (not to be confused with being "green") instead of cast aluminum. The expressed intent was to compete with Asian imports. I only bought one B&D tool after that -- an industrial abrasive 14" cutoff saw. It seemed to me that move to expand its offerings cheapened everything. I switched to Milwaukee, until it went poor quality. Then I switched to Bosch. I have been satisfied so far, and appreciate the clue about its "green" line. I hope that does not trickle down/up/contaminate everything else it makes.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 09:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 25, 2022, 08:42:42 pmAbsolutely. I can use them on my cast iron Jet. Don't use them very often, as I hand hold most stuff. But at least the spindle is straight, runs true, and with a good chuck, one can get decent precision. Its era corresponds to the revolution in Japan from cheap post war stuff to Deming inspired quality that we see in Honda, Toyota, Mitutoyo, and most other things from Japan today. Not CNC or Bridgeport mill of course, but good enough.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 09:18:58 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on January 25, 2022, 09:01:37 pmI remember my dad's B&D hand drills from the 60s. Aluminium housing, very sturdy, very reliable, good chucks (Jacobs).Today, at least over here, Makita is the top brand for professional power hand tools. B&D is forgotten. The Japanese import won on quality.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 09:28:26 pm
content: Silver Solder.I have two of those float chargers and they produce tons of RFI. I have to use them only infrequently, it is so bad I was unable to filter it out enough with ferrites.I agree with you on Harbor Frieght stuff. I would much rather have the option to buy the cheap Chinese stuff than not. THose who are angry are the same people that made tools too expensive to buy for people like me.I grew up before it was available and the result was that all the tools from my childhood that I still have are much cheaper than the ones from laterwhich are all also from China, but better. Because before of the flood of Chinese goods any tool at all cost an arm and a leg.. So the decent tools were totally un affordable to the young me. I ended up building my own first volt-ohmmeter, signal generator, etc. Unfortunately they were thrown out by my mother after I tried to go away to go to college against her wishes.Now, with more affordable tools I can afford to DIY, rather than spend hundreds of dollars to hire somebody to do things, money that I dont have.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 09:42:16 pm
content: Buy cheap Chinese stuff and be happy for a very short time over the low price. Cry the rest of the product's (short) lifetime while having to work with the sh*t.Then buy again. And again. And again...Or:Buy quality stuff now and cry over the price. And be happy the rest of your life.It's your choice.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 09:55:06 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 25, 2022, 09:28:26 pmInteresting that you found RFI with them, I haven't actually noticed that. They are just a simple linear circuit with a handful of components - basically a reference and current limiter - maybe the power supply has issues? [I am pretty sure it is just a standard AC transformer... not even a switch mode!] - in any case, they work really well for me, I guess I'm RF immune![...]go to college against her wishes.[...]How does that happen? - most moms destroy your stuff when you slack off, not when you set out to do stuff!

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2022, 10:15:05 pm
content: So now this thread is about RFI and not about a drill press? OK, got it."Puts on hat and leaves."

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2022, 10:12:05 pm
content: Someone suggested building some sort of table on wheels, to make this a bit more flexibla among space constraints (e.g. roll out of the corner when needed, ...)I was actually thinking of that myself.But now seeing something that weights something like 50kg ... and a height of 1m or so, where presumably the heaviest part is the motor, so the center of mass would be pretty high up I'm afraid...I couldn't just make some small table-on-wheels that's not much bigger than the foot of the thing, it would have to be considerably bigger, and with some weights low above ground, to get the center of mass lower, eh?Such a thing falling over would not be fun I'm sure.Well I still got a few sand bags of 25kg each in the cellar, from another experiment... perhaps I can put them to use finally :-D Just need to fill the sand in smaller bags... perhaps ALDI fabric bags or so... ANd perhaps, other than other such table son rolls I already have for other stuff, this one should not be made out of cheap spruce glued wood of 18mm thickness like I usually use...

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 05:26:06 pm
content: Is this such a drill for doing brass, is that what's meant by "0 degrees" ?https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fWsAAOSwymBhOd3~/s-l1600.jpgAns opinions about brands of those HSS-G drills, e.g. Milwaukee, DeWalt? The latter seem to have a tendency of costing less than the former, in the "19pcs" etc sets available anyway (all HSS-G without Cobalt, I realized those with it cost more)

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 06:09:53 pm
content: No.Brass drills have a normal angled V-shape at the point.A normal HSS drill has two sharp cutting edges formed by the helix form and the relief angle. For brass and cast iron this cutting adge must be ground flat, so that it's parallel to the axis of the drill.Like the attached sketch. The thin vertical line symbolizes the drill axis.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 06:20:43 pm
content: It takes little time with a hand stone to re grind the rake angle for drilling brass. It doesn't take much to get the desired effect, just enough to see it really.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 06:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on January 27, 2022, 06:20:43 pmGood link.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 06:33:09 pm
content: Oooh! I was somehow trying to imagine something in the wrong direction.I am somewhat reluctant to ruin my drills, thoughPerhaps I should wait until actually doing something with brass again, and then order the drill sizes used again to still have the "normal" ones, too.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 07:23:21 pm
content: Just order two sets of HSS drills. They're not expensive.For a drill press, there's no need for HSS-E or HSS-G, rather the opposite.The normal HSS drills are better suited, as you'll never be able to avoid drill flexing, and they are very sturdy there (they don't break). Plus, the non-ground sides prevents making ugly holes when flexing.HSS-E and HSS-G are for mills, not a drill press.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 08:11:40 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 27, 2022, 07:23:21 pmIMHO not quite true; Cobalt drills are for tougher materials. If you are going to drill in stainless steel, you will want to use Cobalt drills instead of regular HSS. A regular HSS drill is dull after one or two holes in stainless steel.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 08:30:21 pm
content: ...which is irrelevant here, as the OP has no such ambitions.Apart from that, it's also not quite correct. Many stainless steel alloys work harden if you don't really "push the envelope" with regards to feed (heavy machine needed). When that happens, you're left with grinding. No drill will help.Stainless alloys suitable for machining are friendly, and will not cause extra wear on the drills.Can it be that you're thinking of cast iron? That really dulls a drill.OTOH, I'd choose Co5 drills for mild steel, because that's really a pig to work with (St37, St45, St52) and almost impossible to get a good surface.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 09:43:44 pm
content: I'm not in Germany but I presume Aldi sell the same drill press globally?I'm quite happy with my second one. The first one wasn't terribly well made, went back in it's box and was exchanged an hour later with no dramas for one that seems much better made.I've spent my working life in workshops that have all sorts of nice, expensive, professional tools including drills. My drill press for home lives on the corner of my bench and gets used occasionally, I just can't justify buying a commercial grade tool.With care its capable of being a precise instrument. It's also quite grunty and capable of drilling quite big holes.As for speeds mine lives in it's lowest speed setting.I did graft a work lamp onto it so I can see what I'm doing better. My wife couldn't understand why I went to the effort of wiring it to come on with the drill - looking back I can't either it means I have to do my final alignment with the bit spinning but the better you can see, the more precise you can work. Drill presses don't do precision the operator does, its all up to you to put the bit where you marked.My shed has a bunch of these mounted near key bits of equipment (drill press, lathe, vice, electronics bench etc)https://www.ikea.com/au/en/p/tertial-work-lamp-dark-grey-50355442/Look carefully at the chuck, you need to decide if you want keyed or keyless. Also consider what tools you may use to drill with - a lot of drill presses in this size have 13mm or 1/2" chucks but a selling point for the Aldi one was it has a 15mm chuck. Ideally you want a drill press where it's easy to change your chuck - in the case of my Aldi one I have no idea if it's even possible to change and I put a little jewellers chuck in it for little drill bits that that the aldi chuck wont grip99% of the time I drill holding the work piece with my fingers against a scrap of plywood. I have a vice, and I do use it on occasion, but I don't think I've ever bolted it down, it's mostly used if I'm drilling into the side of something round.Final note, I've noticed the same thing with reviews from the US they all seem to be sucking up to the advertisers or scared of being sued or something. One gentleman who seems to give fair reviews to tools in the US market is the youtuber ProjectFarm.https://www.youtube.com/c/ProjectFarm/videos

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 09:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: SmallCog on January 27, 2022, 09:43:44 pmYeah! I just found his test videos, where he tests different drill brands of the kind of drills I might buy, and another one where he tests step drill bits - there he's really mean, drilling through armor platingNot that my requirements come even close, but it was interesting to see.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 10:06:49 pm
content: Quote from: SmallCog on January 27, 2022, 09:43:44 pmI've never seen Aldi sell any power tools here (perhaps a cheap battery hand drill at some point).QuoteIt's a different business model. US magazines live from the advertisers. Literally, every third page is an advertisement. Most of the "technical" articles are written by the advertisers and are just a little modified for "look and feel". There's no free trade press in the US.It's pure "mushrooming" for the readers.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 10:37:48 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 27, 2022, 10:06:49 pmThey sell heaps of power tools here! My Lathe is from Aldi tooNot the model I bought, seems they have a newer one nowSome more random catalogue pages of tools, I just assumed it was a German thing to sell power tools and food in a supermarkethttps://catalogueau1-957b.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/catalogue/aldi/aldi-catalogue-special-buys-week-35-2021/1.jpghttps://www.discountstoresau.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Aldi-Taurus-Bench-Grinder-and-Other-Power-Tools.jpghttps://catalogueau1-957b.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/catalogue/aldi/aldi-special-buys-week-23-2018/1.jpgFor context $1 Australian in the above pages is about 0.63 Euro

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 10:58:32 pm
content: Quote from: SmallCog on January 27, 2022, 09:43:44 pmFirst, let me make clear that I know you are in Germany and that Harbor Freight does not ship to the EU. I assume some similarity between Chinese merchandise importers across borders. Namely, returns do not go back to China. They go to trash or what is called in the US, unclaimed freight. (A little trivia, that's how HF began. I visited its early headquarters store in Camarillo, California. It actually began selling merchandise that was returned.)When dealing with low-end stuff from China, there is no substitute for hands-on examination.A similar thing happened to me with that HF mill/drill I showed. I bought one, got it home, and of course, there were issues. Took it back to the store. It happened to have just received a return from an experienced machinist at one of the local automotive plants. HF does not recycle or repair. They just trash. I negotiated taking both home and used the best of each. Then returned the real junk to HF and kept my Frankenstein.Do you have that option of buying something locally?

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2022, 11:02:29 pm
content: Hah, that thing looks kinda Klingon!Quote from: SmallCog on January 27, 2022, 10:37:48 pmLIDL sometimes has hand power tools of dubious quality, but I haven't seen anything as big & (presumably) heavy as that drill press.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2022, 09:49:52 am
content: Aldi Süd does sell Tools. Much of it is utter shite. Sometimes you can find a gem.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2022, 08:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on January 28, 2022, 09:49:52 amThis is like Harbor Freight...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2022, 10:05:23 am
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on January 27, 2022, 11:02:29 pmYes, I have seen drill presses in there, but they have been the typical cheap 5 speed ones with thin columns and tables. At the same time, they have been sold more cheaply that other places. That's probably a bit of a blanket statement about quality. I have bought some excellent power tools from them at very good prices - for instance their track saw has been very well reviewed and is compatible with festool and other tracks, their 20V interchangeable battery X-Team tools are very good too. Best of all, their 3 year warranty and returns policy is very generous (better than most branded products) making it easy to get your money back if something isn't up to standard. Most stuff is GS approved too.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 01:41:42 pm
content: Ah, here is this thing about the Bosch PBD 40, that I heard but forgot what it was:It is roughly at 6:30 where he demonstrates it - language is German, but what he's saying:There is this downholder clamp that comes with the machine. If you fasten it to hold down a workpiece, the metal pipe holding the motor case tilts backwards, making you drill at an angle.That doesn't seem so nice indeed. His verdict is still that he'd buy the machine again because bang for buck. (Note that he replaced the stupid wheel with leversTook some 3D printing, though)But it seems like something relevant to nag about, eh?

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 08:34:52 pm
content: Well, according to the guy, you should then spend 3000 Euro instead of 300.Your choice.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 02:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on February 10, 2022, 08:34:52 pmCry once and smile foreverorSmile once and cry foreverPick your poison

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 02:47:14 pm
content: get a cheap drill press and put a good chuck on it. that would be your best cost efficient approach. get a jacobs chuck extractor of the right size and splurge on a good chuck. the chuck is going to be the crux of a cheap drill press.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 03:21:13 pm
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on February 10, 2022, 01:41:42 pmIt's true that it flexes a small amount. The higher the workpiece, the higher you have to lift the clamp and the more it will bend. Tolerances might vary between different drill presses, though. I tried with a 5 cm high piece and clamped reasonably hard. The chuck moved 0.18 mm (on a dial indicator). It is of course better to bolt the workpiece to the table. And there might be some flexing too when drilling some hard material. But as said, 300 € or 3000 €, there is surely some difference. For my hobby I'm happy with this one. It is sold as a hobby machine after all, not professional.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 06:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 11, 2022, 02:47:14 pmThat is a good suggestion. A long time ago I got a relatively cheap drillpress. First thing I did was upgrade the chuck to an automatic tightening one from Rohm. IIRC I chucked out the original chuck a while ago. Was sitting unused in a drawer for 30+ years already.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 06:46:32 pm
content: yes, when I was reaming and lapping on my drill press I realized what a horrible chuck lowes provided me with. i feel like im holding a shake weight during rotary lappingput a long strait shaft object in your drill press and turn it on and you will see whats going on without a dial indicator or anything

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 07:27:48 pm
content: "Reaming and lapping" on a drill press?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 08:08:46 pm
content: its pretty shady but good enough for what I wanted

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 11, 2022, 08:08:46 pmClamp some round stock in the chuck (e.g. brass), mount and center a drill upside down on the table, then "sink" the chuck down over the drill (drilling a hole in the stock). Take the drill out, put a set screw in from the side. Presto, a nicely centered drill (or other tool) holder for your enjoyment! (don't forget to mark the position of the "precision adaptor" in the chuck)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 12:08:48 am
content: But that doesn't get rid of the axial play in the shaft of the drill press. I have used my drill press for milling as well and therefore I made two threaded holes in the housing to keep the shaft in place (piece of nylon + bolt to apply pressure).

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 06:22:55 pm
content: Some milling operations don't require axial play control (i.e. when the mill is cutting through the metal completely, as in milling an edge).At some point, you are definitely better off getting a mill!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 07:24:37 pm
content: lapping is good for deburring holes that meet with a long shaft in a material too. I did get a NOGA rotating deburring tool recently though... have not tried it but it should make this 'simpler' in the futurehttps://www.noga.com/Products/rvcn/Reversible%20countersinksbut if you don't have one and you want a shaft to slide smoothly down a bore that is clamped with a later drilled set screw hole, a 'half assed' lapping operation can at least clear the burr left by the set screw hole. More of a post-modification repair.. hard to get at that burr made in the 'junction' between the two deep bores.. but in this case a wobbly drill press is fine for the lapping tool, and a fine example of where lapping tools would come in handy for work that does not need to be high precision. very convenient.. once the holes are deep enough it gets REALLY annoying.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 08:54:06 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 12, 2022, 06:22:55 pmTry to mill a slot in relatively soft materials and you'll see why axial play control is important(BTW have a real mill since a couple of years).

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 09:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 12, 2022, 08:54:06 pmIf the chuck is heavy, you can (just about) get away with it - but it obviously isn't the preferred option!

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 01:57:05 pm
content: OK, since I saw a good offer on eBay for one of those Bernardo machines, froma seller who seems to do only machine stuff and has 100.0% good reputation, I bought one.Now the packet arrived where the styrofoam separating the heaviest from the less heavy parts on top, already having cracks in places, things looking sloppily packed into the plastic bags again, and a few small parts are missing.The seller swears they just took it off a palette with many of those they get dierctly from Bernardo. Bernardo says "maybe it was a foto model".I'm surprized that it weighs 49.? kg instead of the given 54kg net weight, but so far I have not seen anything big missing (have not looked INTO the machine, thoughoh dear...)Now I'm a pale hands software guy with few contact with "heavy machinery", but should I expect this rust and dirt on a new machine like that?(see images below)There are 2 4-side nuts missing that were to go into an aluminium profile slot, so something else can be attached to it with screws. Everything nuts & bolts that came with this were black. IDK whether it's sprayed onto them or a property of the material - should I worry about using 5-side nuts from blank steel going on aluminum slot w.r.t. corrosion, would the "black metal" (lol?) prevent that...? (It's only holding a protective transparent plastic thing before the chuck, though)

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:03:19 pm
content: If the machine is sold as new, that's not acceptable. Send it back.If it's sold as used, then it's a different story.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:33:46 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on February 18, 2022, 05:03:19 pmIt was supposed to be new... They even put the manual for the wrong machine in there, lol! That must have been a rough monday.The styrofoam stuff is pretty broken, let's see what the seller suggests...

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 05:56:34 pm
content: A little rust on exposed surfaces of machines made in China is not unusual. It's a long trip on a container ship. It will usually come off with an appropriate 3M pad (Scotch Brite).PurpleMaroon works, grey is finer, and white is basically a polish. Not sure what you can get is color coded the same way.https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-Brite-Scuff-07445-07447/dp/B00LWTWCKY/ref=asc_df_B00LWTWCKY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459484289519&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13468956257635291340&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9015391&hvtargid=pla-966530080293&psc=1I am not recommending Amazon. It was just a handy reference picture. I bought mine in whole boxes 25 years ago, and they are still at least half full. Find a pair of disposable scissors to cut them. You can use that same pair forever.Rust on a working surface is more serious, but the dimensional change if it comes off with Scotch brite is insignificant. My biggest concern would be stripped or poorly threaded holes, particularly in aluminum or sheet metal.Black screws are probably metal oxide finish. It is a little protective, but not as much as galvanized or cadmium. I like the looks on machinery, but there is no real functional difference from bright finished ones.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 11:05:26 am
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on February 18, 2022, 05:33:46 pmChinese factories seem to produce these outdoors or in unheated huts judging by the amout of rust UNDER thick layer of grease/cosmoline on more than one example. Cast iron rusts easily and is really messy to machine so maybe theydo it outdoors.Mostly no real effect on accuracy or use As long as the spindle taper is clean of rust.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2022, 07:45:54 pm
content: well I can't complain about people not wanting to breath that stuff in

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2022, 09:48:41 pm
content: While I haven't had time yet to set up the machine and try it out,an intermediate update w.r.t. the somewhat messy, not really new seeming package I got, some little missing parts, and the rust etc.I was asking the manufacturer,Bernardo, about that.They did apologize about that, and too, opined, that it looks like superficial rust and can probably be removed.But they offered to send some accessories for free, to make up for the suboptimal experience. Like a kit of drill bits.Since I already bought drills, I asked for a discount on a machine vice that was mentioned in the manual as optional accessory.Well - they sent me one, entirely for free! Nothing special, simple vice. That is mighty nice, though.Now I really hope that nothing serious is wrong with the machine when I'm ready to test it. Please universe, don't destroy this rectified experience!

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2022, 08:27:46 pm
content: I bough a cheap priced Scheppach drill.Make sure you throw away the chinese chuck that comes with it, they have terrible concentricity.Buy and fit a Röhm Chuck instead, that way you end up with a reasonably prived bench drill with decent concentricity.Well suited for my needs which is the occasional hole in metal cases or reworking holes in 3D prints.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 12:33:27 am
content: Noting the already somewhat rusty machine:Do you think I can put the thing into a seasonally damp garage? Maybe with some extra maintenance... put some oil or such... somewhere...?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 07:02:14 am
content: Mine is like that, I wipe it down with WD40 LTCI and it actually stays pretty nice. But be warned eventually it does kinda cure , however a drill press that has the traverse gear rack is not bothered by itSo periodically you need to wash off the old LTCI with normal WD40 and reapply LTCI, because it will start to look really shitty, especially if you buff nearby. I thought it was totally screwed once, then I noticed it was 100% a dirt coating and the metal under neath was fine.also, a few of the metal parts that rust.. they can be painted. They don't always paint everything they can paint on those drill press, so they look nicerFor instance, the swing bar for tightening the table. Does that need to be bare black oxide ? no, you can paint it. The chrome on the handle piece. does that need to be chrome? paint it. Galvinized screws? paint it.Looks kinda trashy but you can do it and it greatly increases the corrosion resistance of everything because paint is great.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 10:30:38 am
content: For occasional use I quite like the Wolfcraft drill stand with the rack and pinion:They also have a slightly cheaper version with levers, but that is a further compromise on quality.And if you're into making things yourself (why would you need a drill stand otherwise) then by buying parts like an HGR20 rails and linear bearing block (with rack and pinion too) you can make a better quality drill stand then anything on the hobby market.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 11:09:39 am
content: I presume you kept the original drill press in this thread and cleaned up surface rust with 3M pads or similar. Rust inside a casting is probably nothing the worry about. Many cast iron tools will put a red primer on those surfaces. Otherwise a light oil helps.I moved to a "hobby" farm when I retired and my heaviest tools went to a barn without climate control. Originally, I used LPS 3 to protect surfaces from rusting. It is pretty good. At the farm, I switched to Kel 132 (Kel is short for Kellogg but has no current relation to the cereal so far as I know). I like it a better but would use either. I also keep things pretty well coated with light oil (10 or 20 SAE, non-detergent). During the dampest months, I run a dehumidifier because the air is hot and humid, and the concrete floor is cooler. I almost never use WD-40 except for cleaning, never for long-term protection or lubrication.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on November 16, 2024, 10:30:38 amSpot on. It's the most rigid stand I could find. A 40 mm steel pipe column. A German brand. Although the other parts are from aluminum, most other things of that sort are crap by design, of too thin column.