For a New PCB Software in Development - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 08:53:17 pm
content: What would you like to see in a Schematic/PCB design software that you miss in other industry standards, in terms of usability, control, and features?Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 09:11:15 pm
content: I would like to see a 1 to 1 copy of Protel 99. I would pay 99 to 299$.Then can you deliver ?

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 09:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: Bloch on October 01, 2013, 09:11:15 pmAnd what does Protel 99 do? I think I asked for features not what to clone.QuoteDeliver what pizza? No, I'm not Smokey.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 09:36:29 pm
content: Really slick, accurate, reliable import and export of other tools' schematics, boards and library files.The single most important feature to me in any such package is the ability to exchange files with my customers and design bureau. Without this ability, any other tool is as useless as a word processor that can't load or save MS Word documents or even plain text files.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 10:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 01, 2013, 09:36:29 pmWhat about MS Word if it cannot export or load other formats, do we still use it? I see this export/import feature as a later add-on. But anyway I'm not sure if other format specifications are open...

author: daedalus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 10:08:11 pm
content: any chance you could elaborate on your development plans? are you aiming at the hobbyist / low end commercial part of the market? how big is your dev team? how many man-years are you planning to throw at this? Such questions would somewhat scope the kinds of features we should be suggesting.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 10:09:53 pm
content: Is this something you (and/or a development team) are thinking of creating?Why would you want compatibility with MS Word?

author: quantumvolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 10:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 01, 2013, 10:05:03 pmNo. We do not use it. Garbage bin next. The world is full of add-on's that either never materialize or are used to suck dollars with infinite greed when the original product is established. F#$% Microsoft and GPIB adapters and everything else that do not read and write to (almost) everything else (almost) free. Good luck - seriously and politely. Imo - with your 'later' attitude you surely will need it

author: daedalus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2013, 11:41:45 pm
content: if it cant import my current EDA libraries and designs, I wouldn't even bother trying it out, what would be the point (have been burnt learning tools that turned out to be crap far too many times, and ending up redoing work). If it cant export as eagle or better altium projects, then its useless for freelance work, as almost all clients want project files in one of those.I use word because it is the tool with the biggest market share, and its formats are a de-facto standard. You have exactly 0% market share right now (having not released), so you don't get the same latitude. But to take your example further, even Word will read/write half a dozen non-word formats.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:12:16 am
content: Me and the team are seriously considering a new PCB software that reach all levels including "high-end professional market."How much time before a release, this all depends on how things go as this is a project we do in our spare time. We have well designed code base and tons of code from other projects than we can use, so I can talk about 6 months to release a working demo.As I mentioned, export/import capabilities depend on whether the target format is open or closed, then we can do nothing about it. We are not hackers ;-)Experimenting with some of PCB tools out there, I'm not really impressed by the usability, which will be main focus. The software is based on extensible architecture which allows add-on's.BTW I know MS Word is the "standard" but it's ridiculously expensive, that's why I use OpenOffice ;-)

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:25:38 am
content: Seems I misunderstood your reference to MS Word. I thought you wanted the PCB program to be compatible with it !There's plenty of opinion here on EEVblog about what people really need from a schematic / PCB program.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 06:34:43 am
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 01, 2013, 10:05:03 pmI chose Word as my example because its file formats are the de-facto standard. My customers email me all kinds of documents in .DOC (or, more recently, .DOCX) format, and I absolutely have to be able to open, edit and re-save them, and produce documents myself in the same formats to send back.I don't actually use Word itself, but that doesn't matter because the software I do use (LibreOffice) does a good enough job of importing and exporting other formats. Sometimes I can get away with producing a PDF, but more often than not I need to provide an editable file which preserves changes and history. Although LibreOffice is a bit behind the curve in terms of format support, its developers do seem to fully understand and appreciate how important this feature is, and I know that a lot of work goes into it.Exactly the same applies to my schematics and PCBs. A few of my customers just want a job done and some PCBs delivered, so I could use any tool that can export Gerbers - but others want, use and require Orcad for schematics and Allegro for PCBs. That means I *must* be able to load and save .DSN and .BRD files, whatever software I happen to use. I'm sure other designers would equally appreciate the ability to swap files with customers using PADS, or Cadstar, or Altium.If I were buying software for purely in-house use then I'd have greater freedom to choose a package based on its own merits - and I can certainly think of some features which would save me time and make life easier compared to the Cadence stuff I use. But first and foremost, I need to be able to exchange design files with my customers, and the import/export process has to be seamless and reliable. The wider the range of 'alien' formats supported the better, as this increases the number of customers whose data I can work with.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 06:51:41 am
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 04:12:16 amThe high end professional market? Really?Do you know what that really entails? Take Altium for example. They have been making PCB CAD software for 30 years, have a market cap of hundreds of millions of dollars, and hundreds of employees (far far less coders of course!), and they have yet to really be able to hit the "high-end professional market". They are more the mid level pro market.QuoteRather than reinvent the wheel and fragment the market even more, have you considered simply contributing to the KiCAD project and save yourself at least 12 month right there?

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 02:24:42 pm
content: QuoteAnd who's the high-end pro market? OrCad? Their GUI sucks.QuoteIt's not really reinventing the wheel, it's making a better wheel, or introducing a new competitor. Otherwise why Rigol and others reinventing the wheel then?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:16:22 pm
content: Realtime drc and lvs.Realtime crossprobing between schematic and pcbMultimonitor supportInteractive router with brains.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:51:02 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 02, 2013, 03:16:22 pmAre you sure this should run on a PC? Dude, you've got no clue about programming.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 03:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 03:51:02 pmWhat a fantastic way to respond to one of the most experienced members of this forum.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 03:51:02 pmPlease, go and use a real high-end PCB tool for a while and report back. The features free_electron has asked for are among the bare minimum of features I'd be looking for, given that they already exist in affordable, entry-level 'professional' PCB software.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 03:51:02 pm1, 2, 3 are easy for anybody with an ounce of coding ability. 4 is challenging but has obviously been done before.Time to move past Hello World, dude.

author: DutchGert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 04:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 02:24:42 pmMentor, Cadence, Zuken are the real deal when it comes to pro market.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 06:48:09 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 02, 2013, 04:33:11 pmHello??? Then why list them if they are so easy and done before???

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 06:51:15 pm
content: So who exactly are you and your team, and how many years of experience do you have with writing software for professional use?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 08:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 06:48:09 pmBecause Altium can do all 4 without problems. Anything that doesn't surpass Altium in its PCB / schematics capabilities is TOTAL AND UTTER CRAPIf you are going to design a kick-ass SCH/PCB tool : there is your gold reference. Make sure it can do all those things and then improve it.Those 4 things are the BARE minimum. If you can't meet all 4 don't even begin writing code... as you have no clue about the problems involved in designing a PCB.This is the huge problem to be solved and the big mistake made by people that work in tools like KiCad and gEda ans all those other mediocre tools. They have NO CLUE what are the problems faced in designing , i am stressing DESIGNING , drawing lines to make interconnects is only a VERY SMALL aspect of the actual DESIGN process , a PCB. They may be super duper programmers but have never gone through the pain of having to do proper layout work on a PCB with a half finished schematic, pinswaps, partswaps, footprint swaps, part insertion and deletion mid design. They don;t understand how tedious things get. how a lot of things are done post-layou like injecting ESD and EMC control structures which may requires shuffling traces. How a plane can look post-routing like it has been pummeled by several rounds of a shotgun using coarse grains. That plane will need reconstruction which will involve Via shuffling.And those are the areas where REALTIME DRV and LVS and crossprobing and having an interactive router are MANDATORY.If you think all that is needed is a to kludge together a vector drawing program with some layers. -FAIL-Besides. What would you run them on ? Workstation ? those have gone the way of the wind. long time a go. An avarage PC beats workstation.Talk about having no clue...As for my programming skills. They may be mediocre compared to those of professional programmers but i have written boot code that sits in almost any ADSL modem in the world. And i have code that sits in hard disks as well. And that is code that sits in ROM and can't be altered... not that stupid stuff where 'if its got a bug we'll upload a patch. There is no such thing as 'patching' that code. So i think i do pretty well in that domain.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 08:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 06:48:09 pmhe gave you a minimum. add your own structure on top of the foundation.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 08:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 06:48:09 pmTheyareeasy. But doing hundreds of easy things is not easy, so things people don't perceive as important get skipped. Many cheap and/or shitty PCB packages skip them.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:17:51 pm
content: As I understand I need to look deeper at Altium and do something better. Fair enough.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:40:34 pm
content: It seems like a monumental task. Did you have a time frame for a first release?

author: enz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2013, 10:49:29 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 10:17:51 pmSorry, but to be honest:If you don't know the current status (not to mention the state of the art) of PCB design software market, why do you think you will be able to target theQuote?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 12:18:24 am
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 10:17:51 pmSeems like you got the message. Good luck ! you'll need it ....

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 06:55:20 am
content: Minimum feature set IMO would be (mind that I deal mainly in power, analog and control stuff):-decent library management with ability of processing multiple components at once-real-time cross probing-import/export support for all electronic industry standard file formats + dxf, dwg, step, igs-interactive routing-real time DRC-macro/scripting engine-multimonitor support-profile saving/loading for ALL possible settings-basic 2D drawing functionality (something like 2D autocad, but with actually usable interface)-smart cursor snapping-some goodies like via stitching, autofinish track, array paste, alignment tools (top, right, distribute vertically etc)-schematic snippets-integrated variant support (hello Cadstar...)

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 07:11:29 am
content: Orcad PCB Designer Professional plus Capture CIS would be quite a good fit for your needs - about £5k here in the UK, I believe.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 08:24:35 am
content: Just on the subject of PCB software features - a minor detour...Does any package support this : pick up a part/pad/whatever, drag it with a key modifier (e.g. alt-drag), and when you drop it, it puts it exactly half way between where you picked it and where you dropped it. I've lost count of how many times I'd have found this useful, especially during footprint creation.

author: jorisbeurden
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 08:45:08 am
content: Don't know if someone said it before but a really nice and easy way to generate new parts would save a lot of time. You can never add all the parts that are on the market in your library so make adding new stuff super easy.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 11:05:10 am
content: Minus 20 IQ points for all those who posted a reply taking the OP seriously.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 11:09:56 am
content: Here's what I'd like.After dropping a part on the pcb from the Lib then allow on the fly mods to that part (Pcb or Sch) and have the option to allow the mods to remain with the board only, write them back to the master Lib, or write them back but as a variation.Eagle can't do this...........I'd find it soooooo useful.Ian.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 12:21:28 pm
content: Quote from: IanJ on October 03, 2013, 11:09:56 amAltium can do that. Both on schematic and pcb. Simply unlock the part primitives and shuffle them. Mods are not written to the linrary. If you want to push them i to the library , select the part , hot copy, go to the lnrary hit paste. It wil inject in the library and add an _1 or other sequence number so you dont lose the original. You can keep variants. Then simply rename if you wnat or leave it

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 06:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 10:17:51 pmwhats the target price? usd500 max i'll buy. 6 months ehh? you promise! and ohh, an addition to whats already mentioned, i want integrated spice compliant simulator with partial circuit simulation capability (have you heard it?) and numerically chopped finite element field solver with color graded graph display too (have you heard it?). as an advice, please pay attention to how are we going to zoom and pan the layout, you do it wrong i'm not buying it even if its free

author: awallin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 06:43:41 pm
content: How many of the modern pro tools have reasonable component library management?I've only been using PADS from ca 2005 and 2007. The library management in those is straight from the 1980s!New created components need to be stored "in the cloud", so that if I create a component it is available on all machines/installs. If you have groups of people (including open-source communities) working with the same tool they should be able to create component libraries and share components. The libraries should sync and be backed up transparently over the internet.just my 2 cents..(the same on-line storage/backup/sharing could apply for complete schematic/PCB designs)

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 07:00:58 pm
content: Quote from: awallin on October 03, 2013, 06:43:41 pmThe last thing I want is that some random hippie fart could mess up my library by storing something in some fscking cloud. Professional work requires traceability and repeatability, not magic updates and changes behind my back. Libraries need to be managed, including versioning and variants, in a controlled explicit way. Nothing in a project, that includes the libraries, must change in an uncontrolled way.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 07:16:42 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 03, 2013, 06:33:32 pmThis will be our primary focus for now, usability and only usability. Awful features to the schematic designer will be added, such as ability to drag and drop in a component on a wire and it connects itself, schematic layers, real-time RF PCB analysis, tools that create the RF PCB magic traces...The price will be very affordable, 100K per license just kidding...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 07:43:46 pm
content: Quote from: GK on October 03, 2013, 11:05:10 amMinus 40 points for people saying others are stupid. Minus 60 points (even if that means going negative) for a 'no you can't do that' attitude. Progress starts with really stupid ideas and unrealistic goals.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 08:06:11 pm
content: Maybe you can deliver a piece of software, which is able to make a bunch of files, with witch manufacturers will be able to make a PCB. But making a truly usable PCB design software takes years, and most of the years are not spent with coding, but rather understanding what the hell we need. I don't think any PCB designer company has ever achieved this.You could start by making layers of settings (beginner, designer, pro) and different sets of "views" for the RF, digital, analog, MCU and other people, as they have different needs.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:25:00 pm
content: Quote from: GK on October 03, 2013, 11:05:10 amAre you a butt? Or a basement based desperate hobbyist? Judging from your avatar you can be both.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:26:42 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 03, 2013, 10:25:00 pmDamn GK, I guess you were right. Where do I turn in my points? And can I at least get something in exchange for them? Other than the feeling of shame, that is...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: awallin on October 03, 2013, 06:43:41 pmAll of the files on my multiple computers sync to my workbench PC, which doubles as a server. I own it. Transfers to and from it are encrypted (via SSH) and I don't have to worry about anybody else screwing them up. The "cloud" people can kiss my ass.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 02, 2013, 10:17:51 pmCorrect, if you want any shot at the professional market.But of course you would have already known this if you had any professional PCB design experience.And like I said, Altium have been doing it for 30 years and still haven't got it right. So this is not a project you can expect to get anything really usable within a few years, let alone be in any way competitive.I used to work at Altium, I know how much work goes into the software.As another baseline, look at AutoTRAX (not the Protel one)http://www.kov.com/That took one guy more than a decade to get the this point, and no PCB professional would touch it with a 10 foot pole.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 10:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 03, 2013, 10:29:36 pmI find this perfect for such kinds of tasks:http://labs.bittorrent.com/experiments/sync.html

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2013, 11:52:03 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 03, 2013, 10:26:42 pm"Me and the team are seriously considering a new PCB software that reach all levels including "high-end professional market."Hang onto those points; you will feel vindicated when the OP's team eventually, with all the helpful advice from the forum, embarks on a corporate takeover of Cadence.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 03:20:03 am
content: from begining of his reply, i suspect this is another "ilija kov" type of coder (the one who easily get the offense with any type of suggestion) so i never take his point seriously. so i guess i'm not an idiot? please dont take my points away

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 03:47:54 am
content: Quote from: Zbig on October 03, 2013, 10:57:15 pmHell, why even use that when you have rsync + ssh? No need for that fancy pants torrent stuff.Addrsnapshotto it, and you're all set. Cloud, shmoud indeed.As for the on topic bits...Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 04, 2013, 03:20:03 amWell, no doubt the OP takes it serious. But he does come across as being a wee bit too optimistic. Add to that the fact that he doesn't appear all that informed about the current state of the art of PCB software, and it just might take a bit longer than 6 month before we see something targeting that "high-end professional market".If at all serious, a better idea is to go over the current offering in open sourced PCB software. Then pick the one you like the most, and contribute in the areas where you think it needs work. IMO that would be far more useful than yet another half baked attempt. Then again, less ego points to join someone else project.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 07:20:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 03, 2013, 07:43:46 pmYou just forfeited 40 points without even realising it. Subtract another 40 points for the lack of self awareness.Quote..... and an after hours team of developers whose experience and number must remain a mystery..............

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 12:45:56 pm
content: the problem with joining KiCAD is, i dont like it at all. the workflow, the UI, esp the paradigm i guess. try to blend into existing code is one thing, try to modify it to suite your flavor is another thing. between doing major overhaul to existing one and start from scratch, yeah i'm with the OP, building from scratch (if you know about "coding" at all). you may end up finishing either of them in the same amount of time, only the difference, with overhauling code you may end up with spaghetty+brocolli mix, but starting from scratch you may layout a uniform coding style from the beginning. but i havent joining any OSS project so i may be wrong. imho.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 01:09:11 pm
content: Just wild speculation.It wouldn't be Nick Martin and a couple of friends would it.Quote

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 01:12:36 pm
content: QuoteThat means it is so comprised that it is of no use to anyone.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 01:46:51 pm
content: There are different sorts of "high-end markets"...-rf-thermal-high-speed-mechanically demanding(think some exotic 20layer, metalcore, rigid-flex pcbs).-autorouting

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 02:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on October 04, 2013, 01:09:11 pmNope. Nick is working on an "Internet of Things" company, along with several other former faithful.http://mesheven.com/This is all that's out there on it it seems:Quote

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 02:19:10 pm
content: "hardware / software / cloud computing platforms"really now. They forgot to include Big Data in the bullshit bingo. Well, at least they areleveragingstuff andspanning rangesso they got that part covered. Whatever happened to just saying WTF you're actually doing.Ah well...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 02:20:17 pm
content: QuoteIf it is of use to everyone, it is of use to no one: because it takes a lot of intelligence and hard choices to understand your market, your customers, and make well-thought-out, intelligent compromises than to make a product for everyone yet no one.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 02:27:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 04, 2013, 12:45:56 pmThat may be so, but the problem with yet another XYZ is that the new XYZ projects tend to repeat the mistakes from old XYZ projects."Ahahaah", says the OP, "no of course we will not repeat these mistakes becausewe are different". Of course you are different. Just like everyone else.I'm not saying that joining an existing project suddenly solves all things. There will be plenty of problems. But yet another one for the sake of yet another one doesn't make any sense. Unless this team has craploads of spare time and/or happens to be a huge team. A software package of this magnitude is no small feat. But whatever the choice, we'll see in 6+ months. Well, 1.5++ years after multiplication by pi to compensate for engineering estimates.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 07:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 03, 2013, 10:54:17 pmNo wonder. The web page isn't very informative. Just some random screendumps showing what he can do with C#. What would be interesting is the number of layers, resolution, size of the design, flexibility in pad stacks, connection to a parts database, etc.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:10:41 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 04, 2013, 02:27:13 pmi believe kicad team is not small but they are doing it very slow and the result is not that magnificent imho. the problem is not the development itself, but "the specification" from the beginning which a corporate usually do it in round table meeting. for example how the GUI work, how mouse is used to minimized clicks and movements etc. i even having trouble export schematics to pcb hell i hate to read guide.pdf they keep insisting my document folder is lock or whatever. meh i hate to talk more it just reveal more of my stupidity.otoh take diptrace as another example, it is better than kicad at several magnitude imho, but still far behind altium. somehow diptrace was made from a well defined (or better) spec, it is on going improvement, similar to any other SW development, free or not free. i believe whats driving them the developers is the fact that it is a paid version, but the price is what makes me stay away from diptrace. the most plausible OSS on the planet is linux but that also i can give one or two weaknesses which is strong enough for me to stay away. kicad is far from diptrace and even farther from altium...a better product need to be built right from the ground zero and kicad is not it imho. they can continue to put their ego down while continuing this project and we can wait where they are heading. thats my long story short.

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 03:23:18 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on October 03, 2013, 07:00:58 pmWhat the heck is a "random hippie fart"? Yowza!Is it a result of granola, birkenstocks and/or hash oil?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 08:45:21 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 05, 2013, 01:10:41 amExactly.Like doing a PCB layout - get the placement right and the routing is easy.It's all about the design and architecture. Get that really right and the coding is near-trivial.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 11:31:21 am
content: I'm not sure I'd go that far, but the reverse is certainly true: get the underlying architecture wrong and all the subsequent effort in the world won't give a usable product.I have no idea how a really fast, efficient, usable 'push & shove' routing algorithm works, and I certainly wouldn't have the first clue how to go about implementing one. But I know they exist, and that having a really good one is a bare minimum requirement for any serious layout package. It's what the board designer will be using 99% of the time once the board is placed and the DRC rules are set up, so it's got to be absolutely right. The underlying database structure has to be designed around that.If it's not as fast, capable and reliable as the one in Allegro then I'm not interested, sorry.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:22:36 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 04, 2013, 03:47:54 amThis is called private cloudhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing#Private_cloud

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 02:08:17 pm
content: Well, it was called rsync+ssh with a dash of rsnapshot well before the twat department decided to slap a Cloud Computing sticker on anything even remotely resembling 2 networked nodes with <whatever> running on it. So I shall keep calling it rsync+ssh with a dash of rsnapshot.I would also do some of that Elastic Computing, but I'm afraid the rubber band might snap. On my wallet. So semi-local non-elastic computing it is. Although EC isn't as bad in the hype department as the aforementioned cloud shmoud.Aaaanyway, on the PCB software. The trick as with all software would indeed be to 1) get the architecture right, and then possibly even more importantly 2) have a benevolent dictator on the team that fiercely guards this architecture and oversees implementation. Open source software tends to suffer from the Too Many Master Chefs In Kitchen affliction far more often than corporate software. And they both from Not Invented Here Syndrome in about the same amounts I'd guess.So one smart guy with a vision, one asshole with same vision and several moderately compliant yet capable programmers == win.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 02:17:59 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 05, 2013, 01:22:36 pmNo, that's just a label they've tacked onto a practice which existed long before the 'cloud'.