Star Flash - new Chinese wireless protocol - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2024, 02:21:34 pm
content: China's homebrew Bluetooth alternative is on the march as Beijing pushes universal remotes (https://www.theregister.com/2024/12/16/china_starflash_universal_remotes_standard/).The remote controls are required to come with voice control, i.e. microphone build in. TVs and set-top boxes must support Star Flash.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2024, 02:14:46 am
content: Listening devices in every home. Nice.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2024, 02:30:48 am
content: surprise they haven't gone full telescreen and included a camera

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2024, 03:34:33 am
content: The buttons on this talkie walkie record fingerprints and the enclosure is some real time advanced sweat and DNA analyzer. In order to asses your level of commitment you must hold one in your hand when the master appears on TV.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2024, 08:59:16 am
content: We already have that, and it's our mobile phones.Sure there's a small gap between that and making a new standard for remotes that is strictly on 5G networks, but this is a small gap. They sure are ahead in terms of mass surveillance, but don't worry, we're getting there too!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2024, 09:39:20 am
content: Quote from: madires on December 19, 2024, 02:21:34 pmSeems like a good and sensible idea to me.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2024, 03:29:24 pm
content: I have been using one device controls all for years, they are sold as universal remote controls.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 08:00:10 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 20, 2024, 08:59:16 amThe big difference is, you're in control of that. You can turn off or disable services or apps which invade your privacy. It's your decision. Except of course if you're using a Huawei, Oppo, OnePlus or Xiaomi phone, that decision doesn't rest with you.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:28:28 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 22, 2024, 08:00:10 amI find your fears unfounded. I find it unlikely that the Chinese government has any interest in the private lives of private people anywhere. I find that Google has a lot more interest like Microsoft and others and they are the ones who are really spying on us and know a lot about us. The "telemetry", which is just spying by a nicer name, going on is astounding. If you use Windows, Google, Apple, etc. then you have given away your privacy. And the average person is not going to root their phone or disable Windows' "telemetry". No, you cannot easily remove anything you want from your Samsung phone and much less if you do not even know it is there. Google, MS, Samsung, etc. they own you and your information. And if it is of interest to the US government they also get to see it.Governments are not interested in blanket spying of everybody, they are interested in focusing on "persons of interest" and those persons should know to take precautions.As an average "person of no general interest" the government you should fear the most is your own. They are the ones who can make your life miserable, they can sink you with taxes and bureaucracy. Foreign governments have no interest in "persons of no interest".High government officials, agents of government spy agencies and the like are in another category and obviously they should take precautions. When it was discovered that the phones of European leaders, like Angela Merkel, were being spied on it was not China who was behind it. Governments do what they do and what they can get away with. All governments.I find the fear unfounded and, frankly, conspiracy theory territory, but if you are afraid that the remote control microphone is spying on you then you can disconnect it or put the remote under a cushion or in a box or just not use it. It is easier to not use your TV remote than to not use your phone.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:48:38 am
content: Quote from: soldar on December 22, 2024, 10:28:28 amChina routinely spies on its own citizens, not just within China, but abroad. It's no secret, in fact, they are quite overt about it in some ways. Of course it's targeted, same as western countries, but the definition of POI is rather different in China.It's not an unfounded fear, in fact we're seeing more and more being publicised each week. Only this week, TP-Link is in the spotlight for their crappy, insecure routers that can be exploited (I mean the sky is blue, and has been for a long time). The stuff we aren't allowed to talk about openly is more or less along the same lines. There are government organisations, private cybersecurity companies and security researchers which are dealing with very real, actionable intel every single day. Even with the small number of briefings and content I receive, I can barely keep up. That's JUST the cybersecurity aspect of all these politics, I won't even start on insider threats etc...I'm not just picking on China either, but they are one of the major players. I think it's absolutely crucial that people try to educate themselves about technology and understand the risks. It's real, proper scary shit!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 11:46:28 am
content: Quote from: soldar on December 22, 2024, 10:28:28 amThat kind of thinking is too shallow. If you know about people and their weaknesses you can offer them some incentive for doing a favour. And not everything is done directly, i.e. by bribing the chief researcher of a classified project or a top official. So someone unimportant could be the best choice for a specific plot. Also, many ministers of home affairs and law inforcement are crazy for data. Everyone is a potential criminal in their eyes.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 12:40:42 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 22, 2024, 10:48:38 amI do not know your background but in my experience the ones with most fears and most certainty about how bad China is are those who have never been to China, have least knowledge and actual experience and get those feelings from generic western propaganda.I have been traveling to China for over 25 years now, both business and pleasure, my wife is Chinese and I am well acquainted with life in China. Cumulatively I have spent something like 2.5 years there. I know how people live and how things work. I have done business in China.I find most western views are very heavily distorted and supported by obvious interest in promoting and maintaining a confrontation which I find unnecessary and pernicious. To counter this I recommend travel and knowledge. I find a lot of bias; if they do it it's because they're bad, if we do the same thing it's because our ends are good and this is necessary.Years ago I needed ID to buy a SIM card in western countries but could buy one in China with no need for ID. But nobody here said anything because "it's to fight terrorism". But when China does something it's terrible then we find out our governments are doing the same thing or worse and we excuse it.Right now I have more freedom and less control to use cash in China than in Spain. The limits for cash payments in Spain are ridiculously low. Of course, it is to prevent laundering so it's good. If China did it it would be "controlling their people" which we all know is bad.I find life in China is different than life in America in many ways, not better, not worse, just different. Westerners want to believe we are superior, our culture is superior, our values are superior. No, they are just different. China does not try to tell us what we should do and how we should live our lives and I think we should extend the same courtesy to them.I am sorry but I am just not only not really scared of the Chinese government but I am quite a bit more scared of the American and Spanish governments because they have done me quite a bit more damage. The Chinese authorities have been quite nice to me. My interactions with Chinese authorities have been a lot more pleasant than with American or Spanish authorities.The thing about prejudice is that no amount of evidence can destroy it. I could present a thousand examples of abuse by western governments but they would be dismissed as exceptions, flukes, etc.As I say, I have been traveling and in contact with China for over 25 years and have seen the enormous progress the country has made while i see in the west we seem to be quite lost and not quite sure how to organize ourselves to improve the economy and the transition to electric cars, new sources of energy, etc.I think we would do well to stop trying to tell China what they should and should not do and try to get our own houses in order.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 01:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on December 22, 2024, 12:40:42 pmI accept what you're saying and can even sympathise with you. However, I guess I'm looking at it as an "outsider". To us in Australia, the USA is damn weird. In fact, quite restrictive compared to here. But getting back to what we were talking about... I guess I'm biased in the sense that I have a law enforcement, intelligence and more recently, cybersecurity background. I've seen some things most people would only see in movies (it's just far less dramatic, but equally as mind blowing).I guess it just comes down to perspective. Maybe I'm just very fortunate?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 03:15:05 pm
content: I guess it comes down to points of view. A worm divides animals into two classes, those that are peaceful and non-aggressive, like the lion and those that are aggressive and will attack, like the chicken.My view for the common people is that it is your own government who spies on you and who you need to be aware of. Other than that I really don't care much because I am not an agent of any government.For western people if you want to avoid being spied on I would stay away from Google and all its products, Microsoft and all its products, Apple and all their products, etc. And to a great extent I do that. For starters I abandoned Windows ages ago and use Linux Mint. In general I favor European software over American software. But I am not paranoid about it. Anybody who spies on my life is going to be bored to death. Mostly I am just against the idea that companies like Google and MS should have so much leverage over our information and our lives and that their governments can access them makes it even worse.A remote control with voice commands does not scare me. I suppose it will soon be decoded, decrypted, analyzed, modified, copied, pirated, etc. It is going to be with all consumer electronics. It's not like you can keep the secret for too long. There will be a standard, like with everything else, and manufacturers will make products which comply.From a practical standpoint I predict it will be much easier to get an open source remote than an open source phone. Today in theory you can get a phone with OS that is not Android but in fact you need Android to use their apps.Of course there will be cases where authorities, of any country, will plant clones with malicious code. In China in America, in Australia and anywhere where there is a functioning government. They spy anyway they can, just like they have always done. In my opinion these remotes do not present any danger to the average Joe. And government agents already know how to take precautions.Of all the things I feel the need to be concerned about, remotes with voice control is near the bottom. Your car, your phone, your appliances are already spying much more.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 04:22:00 pm
content: Not sure it matters if your remote spies on you many TV's already do so. There is also some safety in numbers, the more people having equipment that spies on you the lower in the noise floor the individual sinks.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:35:09 am
content: Quote from: soldar on December 22, 2024, 03:15:05 pmThe biggest issue I see with a lot of this Chinese tech, isn't so much they are interested in everyday individuals, rather it's a way to disrupt other nations and organisations. Only recently my team worked on a matter that involved using insecure/compromised residential routers as part of a botnet and mass phishing campaigns. Threat actors are aware of the mitigations and things like conditional access policies only go so far. Anyone can block traffic and deny logins from countries like China, Russia etc... but what's harder to filter is traffic coming from your own country, or even from connections that would ordinarily be expected.The banning of Huawei infrastructure in Australia was a rather huge example. If China wanted to, they could control critical infrastructure and cripple the network.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:44:46 am
content: I think some of your assertions there are unproven paranoia, widely disseminated by the other hegemons of the world. "China bad! China want to take over whole world!"Let's just say that China's aspirations in terms of clawing their way to the top of the hill, disrupting other countries' infrastructure, economy, etc., and meddling in their internal politics are probably on par with any other powerful nation on Earth today. Certainly not that much more than the US, which has proven itself to be the meddlerpar excellence.So no, I'm not impressed at all by all this China-bashing that's going on. Do I think they're major human rights violators? Undoubtedly. Do I think that my country has the moral standing to criticize them for that? Fuck no!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 05:12:08 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 23, 2024, 12:35:09 amIgnoring other countries when you are basically included in their unconventional/cyber warfare doctrine is not a smart idea. It is two different threats (internal and external) that can come from the same 'pathway'.You could be a vector, a target, or collateral damage from tactics that basically equate to 'carpet bombing'

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:54:19 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 12:44:46 amWell, no, it's not "unproven paranoia" by any stretch of the imagination. What I'm saying is based on things I have personally observed. Obviously there is a lot I can't share and unfortunately, general comments based on information that is already public is all I can offer on this forum. Cybersecurity is a very interesting world and a lot of it is comparable to signals intelligence that was once only performed by the military and trusted partners.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 01:48:14 pm
content: This is off-topic, but I understand Halcyon's concerns about China. Based on freely available information it's clear that the CCP has a special interest in Australia. Do you remember the coal import ban?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:29:01 pm
content: I'm in favour of bashing China, even though I have never been there. Firstly, they have an appalling human rights record. So do some other countries, but that doesn't excuse China. Secondly, they appear to have no respect whatsoever for intellectual property and copyright and will happily copy other people's products and designs. Thirdly, they appear to behave like they collectively have no conscience: they will gladly sell you fake products and relieve you of money for the privilege. This is a big deal, because it is blatant theft. Fourthly, the Chinese regime is oppressive and unforgiving, and is a fake democracy. Dissent gets you slammed in jail.I don't see how anyone from the civilised West can think these things are OK.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: madires on December 23, 2024, 01:48:14 pmYou got that backwards.First Australia, pushed by the USA, started pissing off China by banning Huawei, by questioning the origin of Covid as maybe something malicious by China, and other trade disputes, etc.THENChina retaliated by banning coal imports from China.It was Australia who started rocking the boat, at the "suggestion" of the USA who is following a strategy of trying to isolate Russia and China and drive wedges between those two countries and America's allies.That's what they are doing around the world.In general terms China is the one interested in stability and free trade while America is the one rocking the boat and Europe don't even know which way the wind is blowing.China is quite content to manufacture and trade. To give an example, for many years now Boeing has been building composite fuselage parts for their airplanes in China. Both sides are happy with the arrangement but if it ends it will be because the USA says they can't trust China and not the other way around.The instability created by the US is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you harass someone enough they will react. Then they can say "see, I told you so".Cet animal est très méchant, Quand on l'attaque il se défend."This animal is very vicious; when you attack it, it defends itself."In my estimation China is interested in manufacturing, selling, stability and any concerns about Huawei routers could have probably been resolved by other means like having American engineers participate, by opening up the code, or some other means, but the simple fact is that America was just looking for an excuse for trade bans, not for securing their safety. America twisted a lot of arms in Europe to get European countries to ban Huawei. It was not that America was concerned about European networks, no, it could not care less, it is that by banning Huawei European countries would be forced to by American. That is what it was and is about. Many European politicians said openly they did not see a reason to block Huawei but America is very good at twisting arms.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 06:48:00 pm
content: They literally found back doors in Huawei equipment, which is made by a type of regime that Europeans worked tirelessly for 50 years to dismantle.How on earth do you blame people for wanting their tumultuous trade partner not to have a backdoor into their telecommunications. Especially how the military is using it because its cheaper and more reliable/available and does more then supplement the communications network that they have.I have seen alot of talk that Russia and China are non aggressive misunderstood friends but it seems like its not really coming true. (I heard very similar arguments for both countries).And I don't think its saving money in the long run, because the military would just eventually get pissed off and demand their own custom engineered isolated super giant network that tax payers would pay out the nose for, because of security reasons. Like we can just remake long lines with higher bandwidth for a few trillion dollars lolHave a read about facilities that basically make the USA 'reliable', like Project offices and stuff (standard for many years), and how that can possibly work right with equipment that can be cut off remotely. So we can put it in basically a high security nuclear bunker but it can be turned off remotely.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 06:56:33 pm
content: QuoteAnd of course no westeren company would ever do the same .

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 07:02:51 pm
content: I wanna see what would happen if people saw the physical version, that is a Chinese Limo with diplomatic plates pulling up to your ISP regularly and a group of Chinese Generals marching to the restricted access places with their own door, along with the shady CCP ' CIA equivalent' 'suits'.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 07:35:55 pm
content: Just a few weeks back: White House official: 8 US telecom providers hacked by Chinese (https://edition.cnn.com/2024/12/04/politics/us-telecom-providers-chinese-hack/index.html)

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 07:39:09 pm
content: Just to be clear, I do not like spying, A.K.A. "telemetry". Last Windows I used was XP and even that spied too much for my taste. I have used Linux Mint ever since. I do not have a smartphone. I do not use Google email or browser or OS or anything else. I do not use Apple. I do not have any social networks. I do not have any Internet-connected appliances. I like my appliances to be dumber than me. I am old enough that I hope I can live the rest of my life without being "telemetrisized".But notice that all those things I mentioned, which do spy on us all, are not Chinese, they are American. And yet we are fine with this.Even though I stay away from all those things I get invitations from Facebook and others because somehow they have linked me to people I know who are there.I am not saying there is no risk that Chinese products would spy. I am saying this does not make them bad actors, it makes them like everybody else.Obviously every country should protect itself from spying by others but that is true for all countries because everybody is spying and everybody is being spied upon.And the way to resolve this is by mutual discussions and agreements ("if you show me yours I'll show you mine") and cooperation. It is the only way. Anything else is only going to make matters worse.My other piece of advice, Copperfield, is don't buy Israeli pagers.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:01:03 pm
content: For some much-needed perspective on what governments around the world do, I highly recommend a look at the film "All Governments Lie":https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5937962/Nobody has a monopoly on deception, mendacity, underhanded tactics, human rights violations, contempt for their subjects, etc., etc. Certainly not the Chinese.I'll grant you that there are certainly cultural and historical differences that make China more susceptible to authoritarianism than the West. But is that really a valid reason to go to war with them?We (the US) should mind our own fucking business.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on December 23, 2024, 04:29:01 pmLet's just be clear, this is not about "bashing" China or any other country for that matter. What is being discussed is China's track record of producing technologies (both consumer and commercial) with the ability to be remotely monitored or controlled by the CCP. That's not an assumption or something the media has invented, it's been observed countless times and it's built into China's own legal system. If people think this is a secret or only exists in someones imagination, then they've been living under a rock.I'm not suggesting that vulnerabilities and backdoors don't exist in products made in other countries, and sometimes those have been implemented deliberately, but in this day and age, China is at the forefront of this movement, for the CCPs own political agenda (which I'm not going to get into). There are good reasons why the public are now reading and discovering a lot more about this, than compared to 20 years ago.Quote from: soldar on December 23, 2024, 07:39:09 pmHuge difference. A lot of that telemetry can either be heavily controlled or disabled by the user. It's not using some creepy backdoor. With technologies by Microsoft, Google, Apple etc... you have choices as a consumer, depending on which product or features you're willing to accept. Would I use free Google email services? Absolutely not. Do I use Google Workspace? Absolutely. Besides, Microsoft Windows has far bigger problems than just a bit of telemetry.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 09:01:03 pmSophistry - nobody in this thread is advocating going to war with them.I'm advocating shunning them wherever possible until they stop jailing political dissidents, stop selling us fake electronic components, stop ripping off other people's intellectual property, and stop oppressing and "re-educating" the Uyghurs.Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 09:01:03 pmHuman rights ARE our business. We should be proud of our hard-won values and should not be ashamed of standing up for people who cannot stand up for themselves. The Chinese regime is dark and sinister - they oppress their citizens, jail people who don't support the Communist Party of China, and then they lie about having a functional democracy. It isn't: it's an "elected" dictatorship. The CPC does not allow freedom of the press, freedom of speech or freedom of assembly.And you think we should turn a blind eye?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:25:45 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on December 23, 2024, 09:24:26 pmThis!

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 11:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on December 23, 2024, 09:24:26 pmNobodyin this threadis advocating that, true (at least not so far): however, plenty of people here (in the US and Yurp) are definitely advocating that. And it's not just Republicans; it's a totally bipartisan thing. War, over their relations with Taiwan, which is really none of our fucking business.Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 09:01:03 pmQuoteYes I do, absolutely.You can throw the epithet "Isolationist!" at me if you like; I won't mind at all.Here's the thing: weare not the world's policeman, or at least in a rational world we shouldn't be.So long as they (the Chinese) are not actively threatening us--and I don't mean by economic means, short of something drastic like a blockade or injurious tariffs--they should be left alone to work out their own problems.Even now there are signs of improvement within China: there's a tenuous but growing labor movement; even the government is taking environmental issues seriously; and there's probably even some acknowledgement, if not public, that they can't get away forever with totally repressive measures.They're nowhere near, say, the Soviet Union in the 1930s-1950s, with its gulags, show trials and executions.Some perspective is needed here.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 10:16:00 am
content: I see this has become a China bashing thread as always happens.If it were a thread bashing America it would be shut down with extreme prejudice but bashing China is OK.I'm outta here.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 10:26:17 am
content: Quote from: soldar on December 24, 2024, 10:16:00 amMate, I honestly don't think an American-bashing thread would be shut down at all! One of the most wonderful things about the West is that we can, and do, criticise ourselves loudly, openly, and with no fear of retribution. Here in Europe, bashing ourselves is not just a right, it's almost a custom. Admittedly it isn't usually all that fruitful, but we love to indulge ourselves in it all the same. More seriously, most cultural advancement starts out with pressure groups complaining loudly about government policies, or the public's attitudes. Gradually their arguments get listened to, and sometimes change eventually comes about and what do you know? - all of a sudden gay people can get married.Criticism of our governance, our culture and our customs has been the right of every citizen in the West since the Enlightenment, and I, for one, feel sorry for the Chinese citizens who do not have that right.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 10:49:20 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 11:28:15 pmYes, but there is the problem: we arenotleaving them alone. Every dollar, euro or pound we send to China supports the continuation of a regime which oppresses it's citizens, rips off our intellectual property, sells us fake products without even a hint of shame, and so on. The very act of buying a Chinese-made car or TV is saying to China "Thank you and keep it up".The reason we buy anything from China is because we are greedy and when the chips are down we almost always buy on price. And each time we do, we send more money to an oppressive regime that doesn't allow freedom of the press, speech or assembly, and even worse, we tacitly support that regime.I'm not advocating going to war with them. I am advocating two things: that we lobby China loudly and continuously about human rights and oppression, and that we stop financially supporting the regime by buying Chinese products.What I'm advocating is almost impossible (especially stop buying Chinese stuff) because of human nature and our own greed (and the destruction of our manufacturing base means we'd end up living like paupers again). Nevertheless, we should be aware that just doing business with China is supporting a regime that jails it's own citizens for criticising the government.I cannot believe you are OK with that.PS: I want to emphasise one thing: I have not criticised the Chinese people in any way, and probably never will. I am talking about their government.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 01:26:31 pm
content: QuoteDo we also stop them buying goverment bonds? if so who we gonna tap next for a few quid?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 10:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on December 24, 2024, 10:16:00 amI said it's the exact opposite. Discussion around insecure products and devices which are capable of nefarious purposes is not a reflection of the Chinese population. The criticism is directed at a very specific group of people and the criticism would be the same regardless of which country is guilty of those acts.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 11:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 24, 2024, 10:44:51 pmWell, that raises some very interesting questions.Who to blame for a problem depends on the problem.If the problem is human-rights violations, then the Chinese gov't. would be the ones to blame.However, things become quite a bit murkier when we're talking about things like fake products and invasive, privacy-violating technology.Regarding fake products, can we blame the Chinese government for that? No; that's the result of unscrupulous actors in the technology sector. It's not as if the gov't. is making or even encouraging them to make fakes; in fact, I would think that the government would very much prefer that theynotdo that, as it reflects badly on the country as a wholeRegarding invasive tech, that's a different kettle of fish: is it possible that the government is pushing (or mandating) companies to include spyware capabilities in Chinese-made products? It's possible, yes, but is that true? or even likely? I don't think we really know the answer to that.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 12:11:00 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 24, 2024, 11:21:59 pmWe can agree to differ on this. I think the whole business around fakes is a cultural one, and the regime has a major role in setting the cultural agenda. You say it reflects badly on the country as a whole, but I don't think the regime sees it that way. They don't care what we think of them, or their culture and customs, they just want us to buy, buy, buy their products. And we do, don't we?I suspect (but don't actually know) that China sees the West as something to be exploited for their own gain. They resent the dominant role the West has enjoyed for the past few centuries and now believe it is their turn to rule the world. I'm serious about that - China really does want to convert the whole world to a communist dictatorship, much like America wants to convert the whole world to democracy. I know which I'd prefer.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 12:30:43 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on December 25, 2024, 12:11:00 amAnd vice versa; China to us is basically a low-cost labor pool to make all our shit for us. (Like Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, etc., etc. Let all those brown and yellow people slave away for all our throw-away plastic shit.)

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 12:36:42 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on December 25, 2024, 12:11:00 amYes, of course we do.You're looking at things through the wrong end of the telescope.The conventional wisdom here is that somehow China forced themselves into their position of dominance in trade with the West, over strenuous objections from the West for decimating our manufacturing base.In fact, the exact opposite is true: We (the US and Yurp) gave away our manufacturing base to them, years ago, on purpose.It's not like the Chinese starting flooding our markets with just the products that we wanted and needed.What happened is that American companies went over there, built factories, trained the workforce, designed the product and the production line, and had the Chinese operation cranking out stuff and filling shipping containers.Whatever economic woes we're suffering now as a result of this ill-conceived scheme are totally our own damn fault.Ain't capitalism great?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 12:54:44 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 25, 2024, 12:36:42 amI completely agree with every word of this, so perhaps we are both looking through the wrong end of the telescope? Actually, I do suspect there was a degree of intent behind China destroying our industrial base, even though we willingly went along with it.But none of this is relevant to my main point, which is that China is led by a dark, oppressive regime which behaves in ways totally at odds with Western values, and that we should not be supporting this regime either with dollars or words.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 05:21:44 pm
content: I think this says it all about China.https://youtu.be/WFBxtJrLK_c?si=-tH6uutP4AfMB_Q7