What are some good PCB houses? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: MoighonFweeman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 12:36:47 am
content: I'm planning to start making actual circuit boards for my projects rather than using perforated boards. However, I'm not quite familiar with any PCB manufacturing houses. So, could anyone recommend a low-cost, low-quantity manufacturer? Turnaround time and available features are both irrelevant. Heck, I could even go without a silkscreen if it lowers the price. So far, the only place I've heard about is Osh Park, but their 5 dollars per square inch price is a bit much.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 12:56:43 am
content: OSHPark is pretty cheap unless you're doing larger boards.http://pcbshopper.com/Punch in what you need, see what comes out.

author: lutkeveld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 02:15:38 am
content: Seeedstudio all the way

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 03:28:07 am
content: ... orPCBCARThttp://www.pcbcart.com/

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 03:29:14 am
content: For small boards oshpark. For larger elecrow. As said earlier, PCB Shopper is your friend.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 03:34:11 am
content: Interesting place that pcbshopper.com, I punched in a simple 3"x4" 2 layer, green mask board and the second cheapest option was a USA based company. They were $3 more than the cheapest, but the delivery time was 40 days sooner.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 05:28:39 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 04, 2015, 03:03:28 amNot for their prototype/small orders services.Quote from: blueskull on March 04, 2015, 03:03:28 amThat depends on size, number, & shipping method/location.Quote from: blueskull on March 04, 2015, 03:03:28 amDefine "fine".Reflow, or hand-soldering 0.35~0.4mm pitch? I'd mostly agree (but it's not that much more difficult with HASL). Hand-soldering 0.5mm? Not really any difference...

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 06:15:27 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 04, 2015, 03:03:28 amSay what? How can ENIG vs plain old HASL affect bridging? It's the soldermasks job to handle that problem. TQFP's with 0.5 or 0.45 pitch is perfectly handsolderable with HASL.ENIG looks nicer (at least before soldering), and also gives a more even surface for better placement/yield when pick-n-placing. But for handsoldering I'd actually prefer HASL since I can tack down the parts without any additional solder, the tin already on the pcb together with the surface coating of the pin is usually enough to tack it down using a clean tip on the iron.

author: kjs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 07:23:35 am
content: Quote from: matseng on March 04, 2015, 06:15:27 amFull agreement from my side! For the few occasions I do assembly with a soldering iron HASL is the better choice (and I do a lot of 0201's and 0.35mm pitch IC's). However, if there are IC's with a flag which has to be soldered or for faster assembly I go ENIG and a stencil. Much faster and easier to just place the components onto the board and run it through the machine than individually soldering the components. Much nicer solder joints too. There HASL is worse as the stencil won't lay as flat on the surface thus you will end up with different amounts of solder paste than planned.As for PCB houses: I had good experience with Elecrow for small quantities and their quality is OK. For anything larger and if quality counts I use ITL Circuits in Canada. However, their minimum job is 4 panels 18*24" but for that quantity they are as cheap as China suppliers and I never had a quality issue with them.

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:13:11 am
content: I used most Chinese PCB fabs (well actually they are frontends to the real fabs) mentioned on pcbshopper. Just punch in your needs, and go for the cheapest one. Quality does not differ much (if et all). I suspect, there are only a few factories behind. I know for sure that Seeed has there own in Shenzen. But quality from Seeed does not differ from Elececrow.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:28:04 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 04, 2015, 03:03:28 amThey don't have inital set up fees for the prototyping service (seeed fusion pcb etc). I have found OSHPark to be more expensive every time I've compared, for my situation anyway. For example a 2 layer board, 5cm x 5cm, let's call it 2x2 inches for the sake of comparison - this costs $20 from OSHPark and you get 3 boards. The same (including ENIG) costs $29.90 from Seeed and you get 10 boards for that price. Of course it depends on what you need, where you are, yadda yadda etc blah blah. Of course without ENIG those 10 boards from seeed only cost $9.90 - which is half the price of OSHPark PLUS 7 extra PCBs!Quote from: matseng on March 04, 2015, 06:15:27 amI agree it is perfectly do-able to solder 0.5mm pitch parts with HASL board finish, but soldermask is out of the question for most of these budget services as the minimum soldermask sliver width/clearance specified is too thin to fit between pads, so after they do DRC you usually end up with the whole run of pads being soldermask free zone.I usually get ENIG anyway, it's a much nicer finish and not much more costly.

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:34:59 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on March 04, 2015, 08:28:04 amReally? And what let you to that knowledge?Hmm .. wanted to post a picture, but it is hard to get good focus with 0.5mm pitch

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:36:23 am
content: I use Sunstone Circuits. Competitive, but not the cheapest. Quality has been TOP NOTCH and service is amazing. Using them since 2009-ish and they have never messed up once. Probably about 75 different designs or so.They cannot do micro-vias which is a bummer since blind and buried vias are pretty expensive. May consider other houses that can do the laser micro vias.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:37:10 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on March 04, 2015, 08:28:04 amMost of the cheapos I used most often manages to put soldermask down to 0.60 pitch using their own dru's. But I actually have in my hand a board with 0.50 with thin slivers of soldermask between the (slightly shrunk) pads, but I don't remember who I used for them. It was either Seeed or Smart-Prototyping.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:50:00 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyBerg on March 04, 2015, 08:34:59 amWhat led me to that knowledge? Personal experience.Granted, sometimes you do get lucky and you get the soldermask you asked for, not always though. I've found that more often than not the soldermask between pads is simply removed when pitch is <=0.5mm, despite being present in the design. Perhaps my pads are slightly wider than yours, possibly.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:50:25 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyBerg on March 04, 2015, 08:34:59 amThis is the best I got using my cellphone put next to the oculars of my microscope. 0.50mm pitch for a OLED connector on one of my boards.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:53:46 am
content: But we are digressing here.... Does really ENIG help with unwanted bridging compared to HASL, with or without soldermask between the pads?

author: wreeve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 09:00:04 am
content: Quote from: matseng on March 04, 2015, 08:53:46 amI suspect only if you don't take into account the extra solder left on the pads vial HASL. It also sometimes doesn't allow components to sit flat; which might be crucial for LEDs.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 09:01:39 am
content: Quote from: wreeve on March 04, 2015, 09:00:04 amExactly this, the extra solder would be the issue, and the fact it is less "flat" for placement. Real world, I haven't seen a huge difference between the two, at least not until you start using QFNs or 0.4mm pitch parts and lower etc.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 02:29:42 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on March 04, 2015, 03:34:11 amYes, that surprised me too: a US manufacturer being cost competitive with the Chinese (at a specific size and quantity). It's something that I wouldn't have even checked for if I were shopping on my own. It really highlights the value ofPCBShopper.com.US and European companies also become price-competitive if you specify in PCBShopper that you want to get your boards quickly.- Bob

author: MoighonFweeman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:59:28 am
content: To everyone who has mentioned PCB Shopper:THANK YOUHow have I not found that website yet?

author: tonyarkles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 03:06:54 am
content: Quote from: matseng on March 04, 2015, 08:53:46 amI have a design right now with a 48-pin 0.5mm pitch part on it, and I have had no end of trouble trying to solder it properly (either with an iron or with a reflow oven). There have been two problems: bridging, even with a clean iron and no additional paste; and missing the pad/not wetting, where the chip seems to slide down the edge of the HASL layer instead of melting into it. One side of the chip will be reflowed in the right place, and the other side has the pins shifted by half (the pin centres end up at the centre of the spacing between the pads).I have a batch of ENIG boards coming from China, hopefully they'll be less problematic in the reflow oven and I can get on with my life

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 03:55:53 am
content: Is that on a pcb with "proper" leaded tin or the ROHS crap that have been forced upon us?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 04:09:56 am
content: Quote from: matseng on March 06, 2015, 03:55:53 amThat's the problem with HASL, it's not lead agnostic and may not match the solder paste used.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 06:18:23 am
content: Does anyone know if these cheap services do single layer boards ? I have a few low speed or analog designs that sometimes can be done on 1 layer, SMD, with 0-ohm jumpers as needed. Doesn't need a ground plane. If I put 1 layer into pcb shopper sometimes it comes back with a suggestion for a chinese shop, and requesting me to choose the 2-layer service.If it's truly cheaper, I'll go for a 1 layer board for one-offs and prototypes.

author: tonyarkles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 06:21:37 am
content: Quote from: zapta on March 06, 2015, 04:09:56 am63/37 tin-lead, from what I can tell from the board house's site. Worked great down to 0.8mm, but crash & burn at 0.5mm. I've managed to get two boards to work, but it took a lot of trial and error, and I'm still not particularly convinced that everything is working reliably.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 12:02:08 pm
content: Quote from: tonyarkles on March 06, 2015, 06:21:37 am63/37 tin-lead, from what I can tell from the board house's site. Worked great down to 0.8mm, but crash & burn at 0.5mm.IIRC Elecrow's HASL is lead free. I use it with leaded paste and leaded reflow profile. That mix is probably not a good idea. OSHPark's ENIG doesn't have this problem.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: codeboy2k on March 06, 2015, 06:18:23 amIf company X offers both 1 and 2 layer boards, their price will be sometimes be lower for the 1 layer board (but not always).But if company Y offers only 2 layer boards, and company Y is just cheaper than company X, then company Y's 2 layer board will be cheaper than company X's 1 layer board. That's what you're seeing onPCBShopper.com.So get a 2 layer board from company Y.- Bob

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 05:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 04, 2015, 03:03:28 amComplete nonsense. Just use extra flux and a big soldering tip.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 02:13:09 am
content: Even then you should use extra flux. IMHO a soldering iron is a much better choice because you need a lot less heat to solder the parts. I only use hot air for removal and soldering parts with a large copper slug onto 4 layer (or more) boards.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 02:21:02 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on March 06, 2015, 02:00:00 pmThat's what I was thinking too. In that case, I'll do it like that. Thanks!

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 09:01:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 07, 2015, 02:13:09 amI never manage to be economical with the solder when I use the iron. However, when I use hot air I get very nice joints.Oops going of topic ..

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 06:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2015, 05:58:45 pmAgree....I have hand made a couple thousand PCB's with hundreds of components each and down to .4mm pitch. Maybe 1 in a hundred had a soldering problem and that was due to a crooked placement.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 01:13:20 am
content: Soldering fine parts is easy and "safe", it's only about how much time it takes... When you begin (or haven't done it for some time), you end up needing to fix bridging with desoldering braid and solder individual pins. And then you may suck out too much solder and need to add some, then you add too much, it goes to wrong places, etc... No harm done, and no need to panic, it just takes time but the result will be just fine even that way.First time I soldered a 0.5mm pitched 100-pin component, it took me two hours or so..... Bare copper (DIY PCB). No flux, expect what's inside the Multicore solder. And no experience.That being said, when you gain enough experience, you can totally solder a 100-pin 0.5mm pitch component in less than 10 seconds, just dragging the soldering iron over fluxed pins, adding just the right amount of solder. But it takes time to reach that.I don't know if gold plating really helps here that much, I doubt it. I have never ordered ENIG. 99% of the time, I do my own PCBs (down to 8/8 mils & 0.4mm pitch & 0402 components), and when I randomly need to order the PCB's (for example, need more than two layers), I'm not investing any extra in ENIG, being poor...I accept the idea that gold plating might be a nice thing and maybe it makes some things a bit easier. But really necessary? No way.

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 04:06:50 am
content: http://www.eurocircuits.com/

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 02:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: rfbroadband on March 08, 2015, 04:06:50 amWhich is a bit expensive for diy use. For larger quantities they compete with the chinese houses, but they are more reliable in order process terms.They offer known shipping and processing times, and they have extensive error feedback. Which can be annoying sometimes. You can even upload PCB files for some eda's directly instead of gerbers.For a company, eurocircuits is the place to go for protoytypes or single run projects. For personal use, only if you run 20+ boards for some non-profit project.All my personal stuff goes to iTead. But the lead time is variable from 11 days (fastest ever) to more than 30 days. With the added surprise of possible customs fees.