What percentage of electrical engineers physically handle electronics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: derGoldstein
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 07:58:00 am
content: I just talked to a couple of very experienced electrical engineers (both have PhDs and both have over 15 years of experience), and they said that most EEs don't have to handle/touch electronics at their place of work. They both work exclusively in front of a computer. This seemed extremely counter-intuitive to me, but I assume that two PhDs aren't just pranking me at random.I've been reading EE magazines, interacting on EE forums, and watching EE's youtube channels for over 10 years, but I'm not an engineer. Have I only been interacting with a very small section of the profession? Is there a particular delineation between EEs that are expected to physically handle and probe electrical circuits and those that don't?For the sake of the argument, I'm not talking about soldering. I'm referring to the requirement of having to use an oscilloscope, a multimeter, or connecting a PC to directly interact with a circuit that contains an MCU or an FPGA.How many of you physically interact with electronics on your job? Thanks in advance for any feedback.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 08:11:55 am
content: Almost all of the very technical engineers I know are working on projects which are far too expensive for someone to plug an oscilloscope and tinker. You don't actually need to build anything to design an asic or a microwave widget, just use synopsys or ADS. Computer simulation is how most stuff happens now, even for mechanical or civil engineers that I know. Of course, eventually it needs to be built in the real world, but the cost of building such things is so high that you really can't afford to not have it simulated like crazy.Also, these sorts of people usually have subordinates do the poking and prodding

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 08:22:02 am
content: At many large companies Engineers don't touch tools or test equipment, rather they handle the paperwork/computer work, working with vendors, specifying equipment, purchase order approving and all that other boring stuff. Hourly workers, sometimes working under the direction of an engineer, handle the physical part.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 08:37:14 am
content: A few,who the Techs can't keep away from the stuff!"Beware an Engineer with a screwdriver!" was only partly a joke!

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 09:13:35 am
content: I think you'll find it hard to establish just what proportion of EEs do anything in particular, because everyone has their own anecdotal experience and will infer that this is how "most" people in similar roles work. Maybe you could get some meaningful, quantitative idea if you could get enough EEs to complete a survey.Some projects just don't have anything much to probe. If you're designing an IC, then nothing physically exists until the first revision of the part is complete, and thereafter it's all characterisation and testing. Maybe a bug fix revision or two if you're lucky (or not).For what it's worth, it wouldn't surprise me to find that people who decide to do a PhD are more likely to end up in jobs that are inclined towards theoretical work and simulation, rather than hands-on construction and probing.Personally, I probably spend an average of a day a week doing hands-on work with a scope or meter.Quote from: retrolefty on March 05, 2016, 08:22:02 amInteresting choice of job titles there; it sounds like Engineers working under the direction of an Engineering Manager to me.

author: hopski
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 10:24:16 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on March 05, 2016, 08:22:02 amYep, That's true. I only see equipment when we are evaluating new gear.

author: Shadetreeprops
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 01:31:06 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on March 05, 2016, 08:22:02 amYeah this is what my brother does after 8 years of engineering college degrees not degree..he has several...and i was thinking..all that to not touch anything. to let the lowers do all the fun shit, while you sit and do boring boring snore work...his answer...yepMy thoughts to that is FORK THAT...thats like spending 8 years to become a MD. and not actually trying to heal others, or work with patience.i never went to college, not that its not a great idea to do so..but makes no sense why i need to study English Lit, and Ancient History for a degree in chemisty..i hated seeing how much i was going to have to pay for classes that were not even part of what i wanted to major in..and how much shit classes i would have to take to do the classes i wanted. but i do regret not going to college...not that my job sucks..i make almost as much as my brother...so things still worked out in the end.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 03:03:48 am
content: I could see how this could happen at a large company.

author: ECEdesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 04:51:10 am
content: Quote from: Shadetreeprops on March 06, 2016, 01:31:06 amWith the advent of EHR (electronic health record) doctors are spending more and more time checking boxes on the computer than hands on time with a patient. I know what you're saying though

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 09:41:19 am
content: Quote from: Shadetreeprops on March 06, 2016, 01:31:06 amIt's pretty simple; people who do well are promoted, and promotion leads toward managerial roles in a big company after a few levels. Some people get blindsided by it, and others simply want to send their kids to a more expensive school, or live in a more upmarket area so they say yes to the extra salary. This even happens in universities, which one could argue are too focused on research and technical details.Not saying that it should be this way, but that seems to be the way it is?

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 10:38:35 am
content: I ended up writing an integrated testing, ERP and asset management system to support the team I was working on, supposedly as a test engineer I.e. designing test rigs. Typically I never touched a soldering iron again professionally.There be dragons if you end up writing software

author: TinkerFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 01:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: derGoldstein on March 05, 2016, 07:58:00 amI'm far too young to answer the question based on my experience, but I think that if one really wants to physically do something, he should become Physicist or do research, although it probably depends on the stuff the company is dealing with.But don't get me wrong here, designing stuff on a computer can be as interesting as doing the research (only if you like what you are doing of course).Hopefully some can back this up a bit, since I really have no Idea how it really is. This is what I know from what I read and my work experience.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 02:50:48 pm
content: In the course of my contract work, I often design a board without getting physical copies. I insist on having a bare PCB or assembly when I can, but often the proto/test is up to the customer alone. Fortunately, I have the experience to know when something looks right (for which it helps to have a 3D view).Someone who was trained, without ever building physical copies themselves, might not have as good results.Tim

author: PE1RKI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 03:04:31 pm
content: im an engineer with 1 man company and i do everything myself from A to Z.i could take personnel and grow but i don't want to. i like it this way.

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 04:03:19 pm
content: my experience is that in small companies EE are close to the hardwareironically my large company experience was that the hourly techs were too expensive to get overtime authorization for and their regular hours were pretty full so any "hot" project had salaried EEs doing prototype builds, debugging and characterization in their "free" extra 20 hours a week that was expectedany remember "Soul of a New Machine" - where managers were sneaking tech's pay slip carbons out the trash so the EEs didn't find out how much more the techs earned on overtime

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 06:30:28 pm
content: I would hazard a guess that if you know what you're doing, you may not have to do a lot of hands on work. Just design it all, simulate in software and then have the prototype validated.

author: donmr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 06:31:20 pm
content: Where I work its backwards from what you might expect.We design digital logic ICs.The "hardware" engineers write code (RTL), compile it and run simulations.The "software/firmware" engineers are the ones with FPGA boards, scopes and logic analyzers.They have to see what their code is making the part do.Of course sometimes hardware people have to debug something on a PCB but that is unusual.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 06:39:07 pm
content: The answers to this are varied. My observation would be that probably more than a quarter, and probably less than three quarters don't touch hardware. There are a lot of reasons for this. Four that I have personally observed as important are:1. As mentioned above, due to cost, size and a number of other factors simulation has taken over as the design tool in many areas.2. As the scope of your ideas grow they get to be larger than you can personally attend to. That means you lead teams of people who do the hands on work.3. The training of an electrical engineer can be applied in many areas, and either the draw of money, the lack of opportunity in engineering, or a change in life interests can lead you away from hands on engineering. That may mean management, software, other engineering fields, government or any number of other things.4. In smaller organizations everyone has to do more functions, and so engineers will do the lab work as at least part of what they need to do.The relative draw of these things will vary from company to company and region to region, and I am sure there are other factors.In my own career I left circuit design after only a couple of years, but didn't ever leave close contact with the labs and hardware (although that hardware expanded to include sensors, actuators, structures and manufacture of significant quantities of assemblies of all of the above). And I never totally left circuit design because hobby activities in circuit design have stayed with me to this day.Your career will be guided by your own passions. Don't let others definitions of a perfect career define yours. While your passions will not necessarily make you the highest paid engineer around, I have never seen an engineer who was passionate about the field who didn't keep the bills paid and have enough left over to pay for the toys.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 07:07:05 pm
content: I physically handle electronics. I consider my self lucky to be working in a position where I can do the whole chain of a project.Starting with the requirements, component selection and schematic drawing, pcb layout, prototype building and testing.Including (embedded) software. I like the variety. In the end, soldering, testing, measuring, etc. is a relatively small butimportant part of the job.

author: derGoldstein
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 08:58:17 am
content: I thought I'd add some context to the original post:I'm an industrial designer and practically everything I work on contains some electronics, so I'd be pretty useless if I didn't have a rudimentary knowledge of the circuits I'm working with. Over the years I've accumulated enough knowledge that now I'll often construct a partly-functioning prototype on my own. Many of them contain some MCU (pic, cortex, atmel), and some small "power" electronics (charging circuit, buck/boost converter, a small AC/DC module, etc.). So I'll do some circuit design and some embedded programming (mostly C/C++, though I've done PIC assembly in the past).Obviously this only gives me a very specific point of view -- I don't design ICs, I don't do simulations, I don't program FPGAs (though I might get into that for fun), I don't have to test waveforms or duty cycles (though with some DC-DC converters it's helpful), and I certainly don't design microarchitectures.Still, I do work with many electrical engineers and I haven't run into a case where the person doing the circuit design doesn't actually look at the finished board to see that the implementation was correct. The same goes for programming anything that doesn't have an OS -- they have to hook the board up and program the MCU to see that it interacts with the rest of the board as expected (there's an exception here for people who write software libraries that are designed to be added as includes).I can imagine someone designing a fully-digital asic without having to ever handle the chip, and of course architecture design is simulated in software, but is it ever practical for someone to write code for an 8-bit MCU and then hand it over to a person in another office to program the chip and test it?And what about circuit design -- so many analog components are extremely sensitive to board layout and interference, and many digital components are picky about the exact distance between them and (for example) the RAM chip. Even something as simple as an SPI connection can behave oddly if the board layout is too crowded. I've had LCDs go weird on me because the parallel connection took a path they didn't like. Would an experienced EE be able to look just at a circuit layout and predict all of these possible issues?I'm obviously asking all of this as an amateur, these are just inferences. I'll happily accept a you-don't-know-jack reply. Thanks again for all of the responses.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 09:13:46 am
content: PhDs have no idea. Anyone, who spends 8+ years of their life just learning electronics, instead of doing it, is so detached from reality, that their experience is just meaningless. By the time they come out of university, they are spoiled with theory, instead of practice. Then they become like PLC programmers for Siemens, never setting foot in the factory they are programming, living in a cubicle, laughing at the bad jokes of their boss, and hopefully they will become assistant (to the) regional manager be the end of their forties.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 09:24:05 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 07, 2016, 09:13:46 amThis applies equally to computer science PhD's as well. Or tea boys as we call them in the software industry

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 10:51:20 am
content: Quote from: derGoldstein on March 07, 2016, 08:58:17 amIt unfortunately happens for the wrong reasons; code can be written in an outsourced manner, and then someone else needs to use it. But there are other reasons too; for example, one person may just be responsible for writing and maintaining the ethernet stack inside a company. They don't really care which PHY or MAC registers need to be changed, they just provide some sort of abstraction layer.On top of this, many of the analog greats (Bob Pease, etc) were famous for solving analog problems over the phone/email. Not that he never built anything, but with enough experience yes, some magical folks can pick the problems before building anything.Quote from: NANDBlog on March 07, 2016, 09:13:46 amI'm assuming you have a perpetual grudge against an ex- colleague/boss/client who has a phd? correlation is not causation

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 12:06:03 pm
content: The best electronics design engineers are those who have worked in electronics manufacturing, worked as an electronics technician and a field serviceman. Time and time again I see blunders in design by people who simply lack the hands-on experience in these other fields.My CEO asked me two weeks ago why I put a microcontroller QFIC at 45 degrees rotation. I told him the same reason I told the manufacturing manager at another company why I rotated the microcontroller QFIC on the VE Commodore instrument cluster design at 45 degrees. There are two reasons to do this on large QFICS - one not so important, one very important.The biggest issue is design engineers who understand the importance of ease-of-servicing a machine. Mechanical engineers seem to be pretty bad at this. The reason is simple... they have never had to service equipment before and they simply do not have the correct mindset. They were never bought up on a farm or never had to fix VCRs and TV sets.Engineers who have never debugged circuit boards will never understand the importance of back annotating a board or placing top overlay white ink component designators in a non ambiguous fashion.Experience is worth a lot. Unfortunately it is not that much appreciated by those who do not understand it. Having the inexperienced people can bankrupt a company. Mind you there should ALWAYS be room for inexperienced people in any good company.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 12:21:58 pm
content: And in my industry NOBODY physically handles the "electronics". Much of it is too small to even make out the details under an electron microscope. Pads that you can barely probe by manual methods (under a 100x microscope) seem as big as Central Park when you are viewing a plot at a magnification level where you can discern individual transistors, etc.Indeed, if you have a proper schematic diagram in front of you and someone with test equipment at the other end, you can typically debug a circuit over the phone from thousands of miles away.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 02:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: derGoldstein on March 05, 2016, 07:58:00 amMore than half of the engineers I know, don't even use software other than office stuff.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 02:43:29 pm
content: Quote from: jeremy on March 07, 2016, 10:51:20 amIt's eduphobia, a recurring theme here.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 03:46:30 pm
content: And it's somewhat understandable, given some of the examples we've seen.It all depends on what you want accomplish. I would fully agree with NANDBlog if the object were to design a working product - an BSEE who spent the past 8 years working in the industry vs a fresh PhD - I'd pick the BSEE. Research the next generation of high bandwidth high capacity memory? I'd find a PhD who did their research in something related.The "not handling electronics" really turned off my best friend at his first official engineering position. Where he worked, the engineers were not allowed to assemble anything (union rules) and he quickly became disgusted with getting poorly constructed bits back from his designs. Nothing he could do but point out the errors and send them back. He eventually quit, and didn't take another EE job until he found a hands-on position. And every position he's held since has involved both designing and building the prototypes for his projects.

author: derGoldstein
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 06:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on March 07, 2016, 02:29:36 pmThis has been my experience with mechanical engineers. First year on the job they'd at least know how to use AutoCAD and some parametric modeling program, but five years into it they're only using excel and google docs. Moreover, these are the engineers that are moving up in their respective companies, it's clearly considered advancement in their careers.But at that point they're "managers with a background in _SUBJECT_". If asked, they wouldn't say that their job is mechanical engineering, they'd say they're managers or executives. They'd put "B.Eng." on their CV, but they won't say "I'm a mechanical engineer" unless the following statement has something very specific to do with that particular education.However, the people I was talking to were very clear that they were both actively practicing engineering.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 07:05:19 pm
content: I've got to defend excel/calc here. While the big engineering tools are wonderful, they are expensive, and they don't get placed at every seat in large organizations and may not exist in small organizations at all.If you understand the theory you can do some fairly sophisticated modeling and analysis in a spreadsheet that is then accessible to nearly everyone in the world. It won't be as good as the big boys, and won't be able to handle problems of the same scope, but if it provides understanding it has done its job.I have done thermal modeling, structures problems, oscillators, fluid flow, non-linear system optimization and a variety of other problems using spreadsheet tools and the results could be shared by anyone who had excel, and in most cases would work on the Open Office versions.Simulation snobbery has a lot in common with degree snobbery.

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 08:23:52 pm
content: its not a question of if you can use spreadsheets, if their macro languages areTuring complete...... its how much time and effort you waste compared to domain specific softwarefree Octave is highly Matlab compatiblefree SciLab doesn't run .m files without some translation but is still very similar and supported by EU orgs and companies, has Xcos, some openModellica funtionalityI've simmed electromechanical systems including inertia, torsion compliance, gear backlash, nonlinear friction models in free LTspice - electromechanical analogies are great, modern GUI Spice is good too if you use it enough to be familiar with ita very odd, very general, free sim environment is UC Berkeley's Ptolemy Projectbut general purpose can be a good approach - especially if "batteries are included"Python, Scipy, iPython Notebook, the whole infrastructure is getting very powerful and accessible too

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 08:51:54 pm
content: I agree that domain specific stuff is better. But it requires that not only you, but those you are communicating with/training/etc. have access to the software, and more important, the ability to use it. The ability of free tools helps in many environments, but in large organizations introduction of outside software is often forbidden. This also happens in small organizations that have had bad experiences with malware.Spreadsheets are not a great tool, but virtually everyone in a technical environment is relatively proficient in their use and has an IT approved installation in their computer.

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 10:10:01 pm
content: Are engineers all going to end up handling these de-soldering tools like that in the future?!

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 11:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: TheWelly888 on March 07, 2016, 10:10:01 pmTechnicians with years of experience with soldering (and de-soldering) gear are able to hold the hot end without burning their fingers.They have built up heavy scars on their fingers and have de-sensitized themselves to thermal pain.OTOH, that was a common derision of theoretical types.That they don't know which end of the soldering iron to hold.

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 11:23:54 pm
content: many sci/tech grad students do have lots of hands on experience - their professors consider their "overtime" even cheaper than salaried engineersuniversity labs/departments may have paid technicians to run/service complex, expensive equipment - but for their own thesis work grad students may be doing almost everything themselvesthat said, it is poor economics for companies to hire PhD and then use them as techs or even BSc level engineers

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 11:31:21 pm
content: I agree with many here, that many degreed engineers have inadequate practical experience. But as f5r5e5d points out that is relatively unlikely with a PhD grad. While their experience may not be broad, they almost all have had to get their hands dirty on their own thesis project and on their advisors grant projects. Bachelors and Masters are more likely to escape without ever being forced to match theory with reality. Some schools do really well with lab work, others not so good.

author: strangersound
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 11:34:22 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 05, 2016, 08:37:14 amI like to joke about how engineers design things and contractors redesign them so they'll actually work. If you've worked in construction fields, you've probably encountered these type of situations. Just because it worked on paper (or screen), doesn't mean the folks out in the field can actually build this fourth dimensional object on the blueprints.Reminds me of my time in the service. We'd be out in the field with these 1st and 2nd Lt's and typically you always said "Yes, sir" to whatever nonsense fell out of their mouths, knowing full well you had no intention of doing what this clown just suggested. Our communications unit listened to an order from a 1st Lt once...just that one time and we regretted it. We knew better, but we figured he suggested it, so why not. Never again did we listen to that guy.I never understood the concept of the commissioned officers being in charge of the non-commissioned ranking members. Like this 20 year old who went to ROTC and West Point with a silver spoon in his mouth and probably couldn't pass a PT test outranks this 1st Sargent who has served multiple terms in multiple warzones. Ok. Wtf? I guess it's the same concept as making the CIC some career politician guy who never even served, let alone in a battlefield.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 11:37:24 pm
content: We could echo this question with what percentage of chemical/process engineers physically handle plant equipment?In short, only a few of us. If we work hands-on in an actual production facility then we may walk the plant with schematics and a notebook, following pipes and noting instrument readings. But most instrumentation is electronic and we can get the numbers we need from the screens in the control room or from the data logging systems. Then we go back to the office and do design calculations.For those of us who do not work hands-on, we have an office job. Our work is done with drawings, spec sheets and computers. When we are done, our designs are built and operated by other people. Some of us may have the opportunity of supervising the commissioning process and seeing our designs come to life, but sometimes we advise others and they do that.If you happen to be an EE working with industrial plant it is going to be just the same story. Switch gear, motors, transformers and the like are not things you are going to take a wrench to.

author: strangersound
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 11:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 07, 2016, 09:13:46 amBut we get Dilbert cartoons, so it's a win.Quote from: Richard Crowley on March 07, 2016, 11:13:42 pmBeing a short order cook will do the same.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 11:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 07, 2016, 11:37:24 pmIn my state of Australia (QLD), that's illegal due to our powerful electrician trade union. I think it is more relaxed in other states.

author: strangersound
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2016, 11:50:44 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 07, 2016, 11:37:24 pmYeah. Computerphile has a video about programming paradigms and the guy, who is obviously a genius in his own right, is talking about how he was humbled the day he realized that there was no way, even as a computer scientist, that he could ever know everything. He was talking about all the layers of programming that go on, and how that only a select few polymaths or such could even begin to try and understand all the layers of programming that go on in a modern computer, from basic kernals, compilers, assembly, and all the languages that go on that make it possible for the program developer to write in C or Java or whatever.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 12:07:35 am
content: Quote from: IanB on March 07, 2016, 11:37:24 pmYour summary is/was 100% accurate from the perspective of the large oil refinery I worked at for 28 years. The other aspect was that all new chemical/process/ee/mechanical engineers were almost exclusively hired straight after graduation (with many having worked summers here as paid interns) and given a five years period ("flight plan") to 'prove' their engineering competency and therefore be qualified for promotion to lower management and then their real career starts.The company always promoted from within, and every CEO during my tenure (4 or 5) started as a chemical engineer right out of University. Bottom line is that it wasn't a good place for someone loving to do engineering but rather was good for those wanting a management career. It was OK because the company didn't hire many MBA types at all which is the management stock input of many or most other industries. Engineers can become great managers, I saw too many grow up there to not believe that.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 03:49:12 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on March 07, 2016, 11:13:42 pmThis explains a lot. Before I was born, my Mom worked in a factory assembling transformers. When I started building actual electronic kits as a kid, she wouldn't let me use a soldering iron, and did the soldering for me. After she burned my fingers for the umpteenth time, I had enough, I was going to start soldering for myself. I can burn my own fingers, thank you very much.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 05:43:54 am
content: Quote from: strangersound on March 07, 2016, 11:34:22 pmMilitary reporting to an elected civilian is a good thing.

author: AF6WL
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 06:35:42 am
content: Still very much hands on:Working on the design of RF systems, transceiver circuits and control logic.Digital and RF : LF to >20GHz with SMT parts QFNs and BGAs and down to 0201 ( quite easy to work with - under the microscope )That involves everything from architecture, simulation and CAD design to hand soldering and modifications thru test measurement and automation.Tools of the trade :Stacks of test equipment - like you would not believe, Stereo microscope, tweezers, Swann Morton scalpels, Metcal irons (being able to solder with both hands simultaneously an essential skill), hot air pencil and pre-heater.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 08:35:26 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 07, 2016, 07:05:19 pmBeautiful. Next step is to do pcb design, create a CAD vector file and do some microcontroller programming with excel.I'm sure you can :-)

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 08:53:36 am
content: Quote from: Galenbo on March 08, 2016, 08:35:26 amI prefer MS Paint.Really though, I love getting in and playing with actual hardware. If I'm going crazy on some design problem I'll sometimes go take a break and do some production stuff with the techs. Having actual physical things that you can pick up play with was one of the big reasons I didn't end up getting just a computer science degree.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 10:31:21 am
content: Quote from: strangersound on March 07, 2016, 11:44:05 pmOh, no! Dilbert covers the "practical" side of engineering also.Don't mistake me, to a hard hat sleeves up engineer. I'm just practical, and I prefer practical jobs and people with that mindset. We will see how I will cope with the others, as I will be managing very soon some university projects from company side. And it is not even electronics, but electrical.Yes, I think people without actual hand-on experience are worse engineers. Because something not only has to "just work", it has to pass Design For Testability, Design For Manufacturability, Design For Repair and Upgrade. And no matter how much theory people will read about it, it all comes down to actual common sense, not just numbers. I dont think anyone can design a PCBA for production, without seeing how the production line works, or even working next to a production line for some time. I did, long time ago, just for the kicks. Sure it was a old wavesolder machine, coupled with lots of manual labour, and some reflow but still, it was probably the best experience I could get for DFM, no book or presentation can beat it. I was hunting down production issues that created 0.x% repair work, and translating Standard Operation Plans, disassembling PCBAs to measure every single component for the right value, optimizing throughput, by evening out manual labour.If you want to be a better designer, get a temporary job in a factory. You will not regret it.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 12:06:14 pm
content: " This seemed extremely counter-intuitive to me,"It makes perfect sense. Just look at the fortunes of firms that market electronic cad packages over the last few decades.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 04:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 08, 2016, 05:43:54 amyes, I would even call it a feature.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 04:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: derGoldstein on March 05, 2016, 07:58:00 amEngineers != technicians, just as doctors != nurses. Vive la difference.An engineer will choose the best tool for their job. If that is a computer and simulation or modelling, then fine. If it is a breadboard, then that's fine too.A technician will have to work with whatever the engineer has designed/produced, and that is more often physical than virtual.

author: derGoldstein
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2016, 06:29:21 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 08, 2016, 04:50:45 pmI'm fine with that analogy: An MD won't be taking someone's blood or temperature, but good luck being a practicing MD and not interacting with your patients (dr House notwithstanding). I didn't ask them about soldering or visual inspection to check for potential shorts, I asked about touching the circuits/electronics that you are working on. I also didn't doubt their claim about their own personal jobs, I just asked what percentage of practicing EEs have to handle electronics as part of their jobs. Their answer was that an EE having to *touch* an electrical circuit was a very rare exception (quote "most EEs can't change a lightbulb, we exclusively work in front of computers").That's why I specifically ask about percentages. Like I said, I'm not an engineer, but I've been a hobbyist since around 2002 and all of the books and magazines I've been reading were aimed at electrical engineers (either existing or aspiring). I started my interaction with EEs online on usenet, then on online forums, then on youtube, and these days often on social media. All of these places used the words "electrical engineering". We're talking on the *EEVBlog* forums right now -- and there's a dedicated forum titled "test equipment" with 137519 posts on it.I'm sorry if it seems like I'm getting worked up over semantics, but they were so certain about their answers that went completely against my own experience, and my interaction with countless other EEs.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 05:38:58 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 08, 2016, 04:50:45 pmWhat you said is fine for an experienced engineer. However, there are organisations which partition people's activities to a crazy extent. They take a fresh graduate engineer, and have them design things they never see. After prototypes are built other groups debug them, and rectify problems. The result is the engineer has little or no chance to learn from their mistakes, and develop.On the other hand.....When I first started in industry most labs had a number of technicians to do the simpler tasks. They have now become quite rare, and highly experienced people end up doing much of the menial work. This is similar to the pattern in many offices, where secretarial staff are now a rarity. There is still plenty of secretarial grade work to be done, but its now done by highly paid professional staff. By twisted logic this ends up being classified as a productivity improvement.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 11:41:22 am
content: QuoteOh what a web they weave.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 02:37:38 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 09, 2016, 05:38:58 amYes, back in the old days. Strange that they are decreasing the unskilled office work jobs, and then complain that there are not enought jobs. Sure I understand that most of the task a secretary does can be done with a faster copying machine and outlook, but there is still plenty of task that the engineer has to do and could be done by a secretary.But people are coming up with ideas, that open space offices are also increasing productivity. Or meetings.I had a manager telling me to use the other printer, because printing an average document is like 2 cents cheaper. I replied with a very detailed email (took some time to write it, but I dont care), explaining that if I have to walk a few extra meters to get the document, then it is already a loss to the company. You know, we are agile, and leen, and six sigma at the same time kinda manager, who learned management reading Steve Jobs biography and articles online.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 02:45:05 pm
content: What percentage of electrical engineers physically handle electronics?not nearly enough of em.That's why we have all this crappy stuff out there. Engineers design something , then some poor sod has to debug it , and another poor sod has to make sure it is manufacturable. Meanwhile Mr bigshot 'engineer' goes on to create the next turd. a turd that others will have to shovel around. i know a few people that are semiconductor engineers .... their resume lists very important sounding projects and designs. what they omit is that NONE of these projects were ever fabbed in silicon. So they don't even know if they work....It should be mandatory for an engineer to see his product all the way through to mass production and field-return analysis. Once he has done this for at least 10 projects then, and only then should he be let loose on sitting behind a simulator all day. ( by then he will either have buckled, given up or be at least 50 years old )

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 04:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 09, 2016, 02:45:05 pmI couldn't agree more.

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 05:11:37 pm
content: I always say that the engineer designs the thing and the technician gets the bladdy thing working!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 05:18:01 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 09, 2016, 02:37:38 pmThe worst example of this I have seen was at an organization that had collection bins for recycling paper with signs posted exhorting everyone to sort their spent paper into white and colored bins "because the company received $2/ton more for sorted paper". This organization had already released almost all secretarial staff so it was highly paid professionals they expected to perform this sorting. Maybe they thought the degrees and experience would lead to a capability to sort more than 50 tons an hour.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 06:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 09, 2016, 05:18:01 pmHA! You think that's bad?I work in a very high-tech large international company where they took away all our trash cans/bins from our cubicles.We now have a few strategically-positioned clusters of 11+ binsMetal - NO Liquids or Food residue YES - Cleaned and rinsed tin cans, staplers, metal folder holders, brass/bronze, cast iron, copper and steelLandfill - NO Liquids or recyclable materials - YES Coffee cup lids, plastic bottle caps, chip bags, candy wrappers, juice boxes, plastic bags, ceramics, straws and styrofoamPlastic - NO Liquids or Food residue, plastic bottle caps, coffee lids, Mylar bags, to-go or take-out containers of styrofoam - YES Clean and rinsed plastic blttoes, tubs and cups like yogurt containers, milk jugs and soap bottlesPaper - NO Liquids, food residue, coffee cups, web paper, napkins, tissue paper, paper towels or wax paper - YES Office paper, colored paper, folders, newspaper, magazines and junk mailCompost - NO Lids, liquids, cardboard sleeves, wax paper or plastic-lined containers - YES food including meat, dairy and bones, compostable materials (cafe cups, to-go containers and utensils), chop sticks (wooden), stir sticks (wooden), tea bags and napkins.Cans & Bottles - NO Liquids, food residue, bottle lids, or broken glass - YES Beverage containers that are part of the state bottle deposit program.Used Batteries - sorted into chemistry type, and tape over the terminals. Except lead-acid which must be taken somewhere 1/2 mile awayE-Waste - NO Computers or hard drivesCardboard - NO Liquids, food residue or wax paper - YES Corrugated boxes, but break them downClassified Paper except registered documents which must be returned to document controlClassified Non-Paper except registered documents which must be returned to document controlI don't even want to know how many hours of (highly-compensated) time we waste just on this floor of people standing in front of the recycling area trying to parse out the different reuquirements just to properly categorized a piece of trash worth a fraction of a cent.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 06:40:17 pm
content: I really don't get it either.A couple of years ago we hired an EE fresh out of a Master's program. Soon after he was hired, the CEO (it's a small company) held meeting after meeting ingraining in this guy that the way to be valuable to the company was to keep his eyes open and do whatever job needed doing. We had recently let our secretary go for unknown reasons, so a good 60-70% of this guy's time was spent taking out the trash, vacuuming, proof-reading and fixing grammatical errors in documents, etc. A year later he was fired. Why? He hadn't accomplished or grown enough in his engineering role.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 06:40:55 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on March 09, 2016, 06:27:54 pmISTR some UK councils supplied 9 bins to every household, for domestic rubbish.I always wondered what proportion of items were "misfiled", and to what extent that reduced the value compared with "professionally" sorted items.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 07:07:19 pm
content: We have... get this...A green bin, which is for non-'green' items. It goes to landfill.A brown bin, which is for green waste, eg. lawn clippings and other garden rubbish. Naturally, this one, which contains stuff that's easily composted, and in which the quantity of waste depends entirely on the rate at which plants grow, is the one for which we have to pay extra.A blue bin, which is for anything that can be recycled apart from glass, and a separate blue box for glass. I'm fairly sure it all ends up in the same place on the collection truck.I'm sure all this makes perfect logical sense to someone.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 07:24:01 pm
content: I've seen that many times - multiple bins for different types of recyclable materials, and then when the collection truck comes, they just dump it all together anyway to be machine sorted later. Someone must make money based on the number of bins distributed. The more complex they make it, the less inclined people are to do it, and then they end up implementing fines, or it ends up increasing taxes because the recycling company charges the municipality more for not meeting the minimum specified tonnage of recyclable material.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 07:40:49 pm
content: Here the green bin gets recycled as it waits for the truck. I put out 6 this morning as I got to work, and, by the time the truck arrived around 10AM, the contents would have comfortably fitted into 3 with space left over. Assorted "shoppers" came, and variously took white paper, cardboard, recyclable plastic, the bin liner bags, polystyrene packaging and anything that was metal out of the bins as time went on.They do not get much though, just the stuff that is in desk bins, the bulk of the cardboard and recyclable paper is taken separately, bundled into weighed bundles with mass written on each, and then put in a storage bin which is emptied when full by a waste contractor truck. Cardboard boxes are reused internally until no longer usable before they go into the recycling bin.As to municipal sort schemes, only a portion is actually recycled, the majority ( depending on the price of cardboard and paper) in the special orange bags goes to landfill.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 08:07:02 pm
content: I do it all the time, to measure is to know.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2016, 08:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on March 09, 2016, 08:07:02 pmAnd more importantly, measurement changes behavior.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2016, 12:25:47 am
content: All these bins.My work has bins too. There are 2 types, trash and recycle. Except at the end of the day, I think it all just gets thrown into the same place anyway. The thing that really drives me nuts though is the fact that the cleaning girl comes around wearing rubber gloves emptying everything and then will answer her phone while still wearing said gloves. Can someone please tell me the point of wears gloves at that point?I so hope she doesnt clean the bathrooms wearing those same gloves...ugh...I got hired as a test tech, moved into manufacturing engineering while still being the test tech and then took on more role doing stuff for systems engineering. Every now and then when the production manager wants something he needs to make sure is built right, he has me build it. So now I have done almost everything you can do and have gotten comments like "oh, I heard you do everything".

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2016, 05:07:00 pm
content: Simple analogy:Would you want to take the advice of a doctor who has never been in the operating room?Or a lawyer who has seldom litigated a case in a courtroom?An engineer who has little practical experience is just that. If a EE does not know his or her way around a modern lab, then they have little value if they can't validate their ideas with little more than a simulation. Unless, of course, they are IC designers with Giga-dollar validation tools.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2016, 05:39:31 pm
content: Quote from: grouchobyte on April 17, 2016, 05:07:00 pmIt isn't quite that simple, as I have found. There are two fundamental things that I require when I have an operation:accuratediagnosis and choiceof treatment. That's especially valid where the symptoms are ambiguous, and/or there are alternative treatmentswell executedtreatmentIt is frequently true that one person is extremely competent with the first, but has a hand tremor or poor eyesight etc. In that case I would prefer someone else to wield a scapel or da Vinci machine.Horses for courses.QuoteIn this country there is a strong distinction between solicitors (who do most of the work to prepare cases and to prepare their clients) and barristers (who stand up and argue in court).Horses for courses.QuoteThere are many people that are extremely competent with very important engineering decisions, that could not be trusted with lab equipment. Similarly the people competent with lab equipment typically won't be competent with the important engineering decisions.Perhaps one exampleof manyfrom my background will help. Consider thesystemengineering necessary when designing a novel communications link, let's take one at 60GHz for example. That requires a theoretical understanding ofsemiconductor physicssemiconductor thermodynamics (often the limiting factor at those frequencies)antenna designpropagation characteristics and statistics in the relevant environment(s)modulation schemes, and how they interact with power amplifiersmodulation schemes, and how they interact with the propagation statisticsFEC schemes and how they ameliorate propagation statistics and noiseMAC and higher level protocols (and in some cases protocols that arebelowthe PHY level)coexistence with other radiosGet any of those wrong and the system won't work.Note carefully thatnone of those require someone to be able to use lab equipment.And there are many many other examples from all engineering disciplines.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2016, 05:59:43 pm
content: +10.You have specialists who are better than anyone could ever become in a very narrow field - they are absolutely needed, no questioning about that.But the skill they have in that particular field is as huge as their ignorance in others, and they usually have very little to no system-level overview at all. There typically has to be someone with just enough knowledge/experience in a very broad scope to more or less know how what each of them do works to guide them even if they couldn't actually do the work themselves.I play that role in several projects I work on. For example I can code, but always do so veeery carefully and it takes me much more time than it should, I just do it because I like, and I can try knowing there's someone who will check and yell at me/correct my work if it's bad. I know our other coders could to it in 1/100th of the time but me taking part in another way than just opening my mouth helps give some motivation.Many of the things they do go completely over my head (I try to learn from them, I promise) but in the other way they will regularly be stuck on something that's absolutely obvious to me and a 2 line explanation will get them going instead of them losing 2 days trying to wrap their head around it.Both approaches are just necessary and complementary. I'd need a month to understand how to do what they do, they'd need 2 days to understand what to do. If I spend 5 minutes explaining them what to do, they can do it in 2 hours. Everybody wins.People who know a lot of things in depth areextremelyscarce. Usually you have to choose between broad but shallow, or narrow and deep. I'm definitely the former.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2016, 06:10:11 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on March 06, 2016, 07:07:05 pm+1 ilovedesigning and building prototypes, probing around and then move on to the next crazy idea i get asked by the boss

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2016, 09:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 17, 2016, 05:59:43 pmI agree with your other points, and emphasis the above.I've been fortunate to know quite a few people thatdoknow a lot of things in depth. One of their characteristics is that they have a knack of asking theimportantquestion. By that I mean the questions which have answers that illuminate many aspects (+ve and -ve, scope and limitations) of a product/system/design/concept.I listen to such peoples' answers,particularlywhen they disagree with me.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2016, 01:12:04 am
content: The corollary is the interaction between engineering and management. For instance:1. Is "Quality" a top priority, yet everything is driven by the schedule?2. Is "Improvement" a top priority, yet requests for continuing education or new equipment are regularly turned down?3. Are "Facts" a top priority, yet the email system automatically deletes things well before a project is complete?It took a while but a few things eventually became clear:A. It isn't important how much money you save. What makes you important is how much money you spend.B. Engineering is just one of several departments, and one that by definition generates no revenue. Sales gets that. Therefore, as one goes up the management chain, engineering stands out more and more as a black hole of costs.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2016, 01:16:02 am
content: My job today will be to try to explain to some hypermotivated / borderline unstoppable people that given some recent events they'll have to seriously reconsider the way the very enjoyable thing they've been doing for quite a while as it just can't run on pure luck as it undoubtedly is now anymore... and the alternative is very far apart and much less fun. Wish me luck...Quote from: Tomorokoshi on April 18, 2016, 01:12:04 amSo true/appropriate it hurts

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2016, 06:34:41 am
content: Quote from: derGoldstein on March 05, 2016, 07:58:00 amGood grief, no. I have two left hands and I'm not allowed near objects because I break them.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2016, 02:15:11 pm
content: Somebody else woke this thread up, prompting me to read it. Rather than reply to individual comments I thought I'd just add the thoughts that were provoked by them here at the end.One of the problems with promoting engineers into management is that many very good engineers make lousy managers (and very occasionally lousy engineers make good managers). The reasons are manifold and it doesn't advance the argument to enumerate them here. The problem is that most organizations don't have a way of promoting or rewarding good engineers that doesn't involve pushing them up the management ladder until they eventually reach their level of incompetence (cf the Peter Principle). Sun microsystems had a way around this. They had a parallel structure that allowed them to promote engineers, give them higher salaries, a flashier job title (Distinguished Engineer was the pinnacle IIRC), more rank, better toys, more playtime on their own pet projects and yet still keep them doing the work they were good at. This had the useful side-effect that a several times promoted engineer might out-rank someone that they nominally worked for and thus have the formal power to say "no" to a bad management decision about an engineering subject.Somebody mentioned British solicitors and barristers and clearly doesn't understand what they do. Someone made it sound like solicitors did all the desk work and barristers did the standing up in court. They both do both. The principle difference between them is which courts they have a 'right of audience' in, the higher levels of the courts system being reserved to barristers - although relatively recent changes to the law are moving the line where youmusthave a barrister to represent you in a particular court.On the subject of being useless unless you have also seen the frontline/production/service environment. One guy I've worked for, let's call him John, had a clever and very effective policy. John was the CEO of a company that had been in the retail mobile phone business back when this was relatively new and potentially very lucrative. John had been in the right place at the right time, been lucky and had built a very successful business. Eventually he sold his customer base to a bigger provider for a boat load of cash and was left with an almost empty company, buckets of cash and a huge tax liability if he didn't plough the money back into the business pretty quickly. This was the mid nineties and he picked, correctly, the Internet as the next big thing and decided to re-invent his mobile phone service provider business as an Internet service provider business. I was brought on board as the senior technical bod.Like many business leaders he attributed his previous success to his skill and not to luck. Unfortunately this was not true and John was a lousy manager. Nice bloke, but lousy manager, and he kept thinking that repeating things he had done successfully in the past would be successful in the context of a new, different business. For the most part he was wrong. However, one thing he had done in the past was insist that all managers, no matter how senior, including himself had to take a part shift every week on the customer support phone lines. This meant that every manager in the company knew what customers real problems were and also what a problem some real customers can be. This worked so well that I've tried to incorporate the idea into every business I've been involved with since. It only works if there are no exceptions and that no manager is too important to be forced to do this on a regular basis taking their turn with everybody else.