Can I use this to make pcb at home? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 09:03:15 am
content: Hi,I have seen this video on youtubeThat guy is using light sensitive material to do his pcb print transfer, in this moment in the videohttps://youtu.be/2eRdbvGXkio?t=220My question is about this material, I have seen one over there on TMEhttp://www.tme.eu/en/details/bun-ten-resist-25/materials-for-pcb-production/bungard/tentingresist-15mil-304mm-x-25m/Is the one being sold on tme the same as the one being used in the video on youtube?Also does this material has limited lifetime, I mean does it have expiration date, can I store on the shelf in the room temperature?lastly does anyone has any advice about it(good, bad?)Thanks

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 09:45:02 am
content: Did you see the instructions:http://www.tme.eu/en/Document/f1ade6ac0fcd499879f524ea8c827c02/Laminat%20Resist%20E%20neu.pdfShelf life up to 6 month at <15 deg C. That's going to be a problem even getting it to you in Saudi - if it gets stuck in customs clearance for a week or two, it may be significantly degraded before you even open it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 09:48:19 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on May 16, 2016, 09:45:02 amSensitivity might change but it's reasonably good for a few years. Also, get smaller quantities on ebay or somewhere else, it does not need to be this particular part number/manufacturer. Buying such a big roll for hobby needs is insane.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 09:50:26 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on May 16, 2016, 09:45:02 amNice observation...hey, nour,why don't you use toner transfer paper ? i've made circuits that use components as small as 0402...what else do you need?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 09:52:51 am
content: Quote from: Raj on May 16, 2016, 09:50:26 amBecause toner sucks, especially for double sided boards. Thermal shrinkage alone makes it unsuitable for bigger double-sided boards.

author: sm0kew0n
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 10:07:56 am
content: I don't know anything about this technique but it looks doable in my workshop and fun, thanks for posting.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 10:21:12 am
content: Ok, thanks for replyAbout toner transfer I really have a very bad experience with it, never had good transfer everQuote from: Ian.M on May 16, 2016, 09:45:02 amYes I have seen instructions and I know about the 6 month issue but I just wanted to know other people experience with this productIn the youtube video the guy picked it up from the shelf and it seems to be a normal roomQuote from: wraper on May 16, 2016, 09:48:19 amUnfortunately, the shipping fee for me from anywhere now would be very high to get the stuff with-in reasonable time(I usually get my stuff from tme with-in 3-4 days and for just 25$ for the first 5 KG)To get it from ebay from China it will take forever and to buy it from United States it will cost at least double the amount of charge for shipping, so at the end, the most economic action to take is to buy the big roll (I know it is very big) with small shipping fee and reasonable time.This method is very simple and really encouraging to try,if I can find a place to buy small roll with international shipping it would be wonderful

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 09:57:47 pm
content: QuoteThere's a limit of practicality as to how big and how dense you can make your own boards, anyway. When the number of holes/vias gets too large, there's no point to make a board with the photoresist method, either. Well, I have seen the guys doing their own plated thru holes... and I dunno but it's not worth it to me, at that point, anyway.You can easily make a double sided board as large as a laser printer can print, using a laminator, if you make your vias extra large. The warpage is a lot less using a laminator and pulsar paper vs using an iron and say magazine paper. When the number of vias goes up, I will prefer extra large vias, anyway, to use premade tinned via tacks. Getting the registration right takes a little more time than with photoresist, but the registration is a bigger concern than warpage, when you are using quality tools and consumables and reasonable pcb sizes for toner transfer process.Individual needs vary. Speaking for myself, I find no reason to use photoresist over toner transfer for any practical purpose. Toner transfer is faster and easier and cheaper and is > 99% yield at, say, 10/10 and up to 6"x9" when you use the right tools and process. I could easily do panels of the board in the OP up to 6"x9" with 99+% yield, anyway.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 05:13:20 am
content: What kind of layout are you printing?....here's one of my example-(its single sided with a few jumpers...lots of circuits made out of same board...needs refinement)

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 07:59:42 am
content: Last time I used toner transfer was more than 10 years and I don't really remember the tools nor the process that I have went through, but one thing I really remember it was horrible.I remember the only PCB that I was able to produce was for AC power rectifier, it works because the traces was very wide and the vias was very big in diameter.All my tries failed if I use small components or even standard through holes packagesIt seems like I will just buy from tme, recently I wanted to build several PCB and every time I start thinking about it I end up just throw the whole idea away or spend too much time doing prototype on one of those universal boards which would take me days to finish

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 08:09:56 am
content: Quote from: Raj on May 17, 2016, 05:13:20 amThis example cannot work even if made in factory. Many pads/traces shorted together because of weird layout. And frankly very ugly too.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 08:25:58 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 17, 2016, 08:09:56 amugly indeed but it is good enough as proof of concept, beside, ive made such boards before too...they work...after i engrave the pcb after etching.the design contains 12 separate circuits...out of those, only 2 are risky and can have faultsForgive my ms paint skills.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 07:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: Raj on May 17, 2016, 08:25:58 amDo you create the layout in paint?. I had a feeling this looks too wrong to be created in normal PCB software.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 09:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 17, 2016, 07:22:20 pmAnd I was wondering what kind of PCB routing software that produced those prints

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 05:10:45 am
content: BTW... you could also buy pcb precoated with photo etch resistant chemicalIt was a combination of paint and fritzing for the pcb.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 09:21:32 am
content: Quote from: Raj on May 18, 2016, 05:10:45 amjust printed it, no errors

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 09:29:28 am
content: Nice work RajLoving the fact that this was done in ms paint. Electrons don't give a shit about ugly

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 09:39:58 am
content: Quote from: Raj on May 18, 2016, 09:21:32 amI cannot see this being an acceptable result. When I made something even remotely like this, it's way was directly into the trash. This PCB is a one big defect frankly, parts of the copper not etched away where they should be and actual tracks etched through too where they shouldn't. Don't consider this as insult, I just say the plain fact. EDIT: also I say this because you were suggesting that toner transfer works well which is not the case in your photo. If you need to correct the result with a scalpel after the etching, that means your process is not good enough.Not much of small parts on this board, but there are some sot-23 and 0603, but you can see how this should look like if done properly. Haven't left any other pictures since was making PCBs myself.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 09:49:58 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on May 18, 2016, 09:29:28 amLol, I did my first PCB at school, using the drawing program on an old Acorn 3000, then when I was at college, I used OpenOffice.org draw.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 09:56:56 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 18, 2016, 09:49:58 amI used manual drawing on the paper for routing. And then manual drawing on the pcb. And it still looked better.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 10:11:47 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 18, 2016, 09:49:58 amThats cool, I would have loved one of those Archimedes. When I was at school I think PCB's were laid out with tape and transfers...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 10:29:46 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on May 18, 2016, 10:11:47 amOr etch resistant pens.Good effort for MS Paint Raj.

author: tmk854
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 11:59:47 am
content: In the topic of home PCB manufacturing, I've recently had very good results with blue Press'n'Peel transfer sheets compared to the toner transfer method. It worked well with a laminator (temperature hacked). Worth giving it try.Tom