New Multimeter DMM for beginner - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: pelican
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 05:42:53 pm
content: I'm new here.I want to dig into electronics and have bought this Humble Bundle:https://www.humblebundle.com/books/charles-platt-make-community-books(it's over now)I want to start with it next year. Right now i need a dmm for repair of electronics and mains voltage (220V), repair and building around my home.I've read that all of these dmm are good and that i can choose the one i like:Brymen 786EffEEV editonBrymen 869sEffEEV 121GWI'm not sure what the differences are and what would be best for me. (Yes i know about the tablechart.)There are two options: first, buy at theeffEEV store. How long will it ship to europe? Second, buy at welectron.com. They don't have the 786 at all for the next three months. Thats why i thought about stepping up to the 869s.Are there other good european shops? But i guess they don't sell theEffEEV editions.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 06:31:23 pm
content: Eff? Do you mean EEVblog?There are tons of European shops, and even more foreign ones that ship to Europe quickly.Take a look at Reichelt, ELV, Batterfly, Batronix, Distrelec, TME, etc. — all European.P.S. the humble bundle page no longer shows what the bundle contained, so we have no idea what you bought.

author: aduinstat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 06:40:04 pm
content: Those are all pretty nice meters. The 121GW has some premium features like bluetooth, logging, and an impressively high diode test voltage. The BM786 lacks that. The 869s has a extra digit over the 121GW and BM786, but also lacks those premium features. The dual displays the 121GW and 869s have are also quite nice.I'd get the 121GW if I were looking to treat myself, but there are cheaper options that will do almost everything you'll need.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 07:29:27 pm
content: I think all of them are nice. The 121GW is priced around $200 USD is not too much.

author: pelican
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 07:57:20 pm
content: Oh sorry of course it is EEV.About the shops: has any of them the EEVBlog editon ones? I only know of Amazon US, which takes some weeks to get here. I prefer to rather buy somewhere close.I thought about the Brymen because it is said here that they are more secure, even more EEV editions. When i want to work with mains voltage, should i stick to them?There is also one Fluke 87v non-max at about 500€ available. But i think it would be too much for my level of skills, wouldn't it?You all seem to favor the 121GW. Is this also true when i want to repair my bicycle LED light or my (digital) coffee machine?Sorry if my post is a bit confusing, thats my usual me.

author: aduinstat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:28:04 pm
content: I wouldn't get a Fluke 87 unless I got a good deal on a used one, or if I would use it professionally. (You could get an HP34401A from ebay, and have it calibrated for that price)Multimeters have safety categories, based on the application. The meter you use (and also the probes) should meet or exceed a particular category based on what you're probing:* Cat I: Signal level voltages, low energy equipment.* Cat II: Appliances and equipment that plug into outlets. Wall outlets that are 30 ft from a Cat III source, or 60 ft from a Cat IV source.* Cat III: Breaker boxes, distribution panels, 3 phase equipment.* Cat IV: Outside linesCat I would satisfy your bicycle light. You should use a Cat II meter or better to probe your coffee machine (Be careful. The heating element is likely direct 220V powered.) . Professional meters are Cat III/Cat IV. Also look for marks on the meter from 3rd party labs, like UL or CSA. The 121GW is Cat III, and just fine for your applications.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:03:58 pm
content: The CAT thing is a made-up "standard" in my view. It is specific to working at various locations in a power system when it is likely that lightning is going to hit the transformer in front of your house. It worries about transients...https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/safety/multimeter-guidehttps://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/safety/safe-test-tools-real-world-useIn the US, it would be VERY rare to have more than 10kA of fault current in a residential service and that is Level II. At the first breaker panel. More often than not, the breakers will only be rated for 5kA.In industrial applications, a 1000 kVA 480V 3 phase substation would likely have less than 20kA of fault current (guessing at 6% impedance) so you need to be into some pretty heavy stuff before you need to worry about CAT IV. Even CAT III is a stretch and I think I would just avoid working on the service panel during a lightning storm.It's not clear to me that the CAT ratings are tested when the design is certified. Fluke clearly does, I'm not sure about the others. Some meters sure seem questionable. There is an epic thread re: ratings over in the test equipment forumTruly epic:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/I would trust that the MAJOR manufacturers do actually think about CAT ratings. I might trust Fluke, Brymen and a couple of others. I have both of the EEVblog meters and a nice Fluke 189 along with a handful of lesser meters. The one I reach for: An Aneng 8008. It's a cheap meter with the features I commonly need. The point is this: You willultimately want 3 DMMs and they don't all need to be Flukes.ETA:I should point out that I seldom use a DMM for working on residential wiring and I retired from industrial systems about 19 years ago. I might have used a DMM a handful of times in my entire electrical career. A Simpson 260 was more than adequate and in the early years they weren't even fused. Somehow I lived through this stuff. Personally, I prefer the solenoid type tester because I am seldom interested in digits of precision and more interested in presence or absence. That's just me, other practitioners have other methods.I also use one of the Fluke voltage detectors. I test the tester before and after every test on known working circuits.https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/basic-testers/fluke-1ac-iiBe aware that it uses a battery and they are always dead when you need them. Solenoid type testers don't need batteries.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:16:57 pm
content: Quote from: pelican on June 05, 2022, 07:57:20 pmIMHO the 121GW’s continuity is too slow. It’s also a really chunky meter: it’s way thicker than a typical meter.I own the 87V and it is a fantastic meter, and if you are swimming in money, go for it. But it’s certainly more than youneed, and given that one often needs to measure current and voltage at the same time, I think a person with a normal budget would be far wiser spending the money on several cheaper meters.And while a Fluke or Brymen is excellent with regards to safety*, you really shouldn’t be playing with mains as an absolute beginner yet. But any name brand meter that’s CAT rated will be good, and I would suggest owning one, even if the others can be cheap Chinese things with nonexistent or fake CAT ratings. I also like the AN8008/8009 meters as secondary ones. (But don’t try and measure current with them until you’re more experienced, because if you blow the fuse on those — which is something every beginner does with their multimeter — it’s a weird size that’s insanely hard to find.)Wow, that’s a nice collection of books!*I know they’re both “Sicherheit” in German, but in English security means resistance against attacks, while safety means protection against (accidental, mostly) harm.

author: aduinstat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:21:39 pm
content: I'm not going to complain about conservative safety ratings, and, yeah, I'm also a bit suspicious of safety ratings on low end meters and smaller brands.Quote from: rstofer on June 05, 2022, 10:03:58 pm3 meters? No, you need 4 if you want measure the inputandoutput power. And them maybe a 5th for probing arbitrary points.I used to have a meter where I had replaced the fuse with a polyfuse after I got tired of blowing it. I think I paid about $3 for it on aliexpress.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:27:36 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 05, 2022, 10:03:58 pmAs far as I know, a truthful CAT rating can only be claimed after testing to certify the design to that standard. All the big names will do this.It’s the lower tier meters that lie about CAT ratings. I wish they wouldn’t, because honestly it wouldn’t even affect their sales much: no buyers who truly need CAT ratings are going to consider off-brands anyway, and for the electronics hobbyists who do but those meters, it’s not a problem. But we should demand honest declarations so that people can dependably know what their meters can and cannot be used for.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:30:27 pm
content: Brymen meters are excellent quality and I would get any one of them without hesitation, with a slight edge for the BM869S due to its bandwidth of 100kHz (I work with audio electronics and the higher bandwidth is useful to me). Although I don't have the two models shown, I have two others that have excellent features and build quality that are only marginally worse than a Fluke 87V.Despite I don't own one, all the video comparisons and reviews of the 121GW show it as an overall slow meter that is on par with the Keysight U1282A (I have one of these and it is slower than any of my other meters).The Fluke 87V is a notch lower than any of the models mentioned in terms of features, but it has such exceptional build quality and overall ease of use that it tends to be the preference of many around here (and in the professional market). I have one and it does not disappoint, but as you can tell it is an expensive option. If you can find one used in good shape for a lower price, it might be useful to consider (it will last you a lifetime).Good luck in your quest!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:43:15 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on June 05, 2022, 10:03:58 pmThe vast majority of super cheap meters indeed do not seem to care about lying, but a mid-range set of meters from some brands (Uni-T, Mastech, for example) have some models that seem to be concerned about this and are even tested by independent certification agencies. The effectiveness of these tests and the actual requirements for a meter to be marked with a specific "CAT" rating are points of debate that we couldn't yet find out clearly: should the meter survive an overcurrent/voltage event? Or should only the operator survive? These will greatly define how the input protection and mechanical design of the meter will be done.Quote from: rstofer on June 05, 2022, 10:03:58 pmJust one remark: the tests shown in the mentioned thread are not related to CAT ratings. They evaluate the robustness of the meters under very specific circumstances set by Joe that are not related to the overall safety of the meter, which CAT ratings claim to be.Quote from: rstofer on June 05, 2022, 10:03:58 pmIndeed these are nice models if one is concerned about the CAT safety ratings, which most DMM user's don't need to be - especially if working on low voltage electronics.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 05, 2022, 10:27:36 pmThat is precisely what I find absolutely unforgivable about the ultra-cheap brands that display these blatantly untested ratings unnecessarily.

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 02:59:48 am
content: ...just bringing another aspect into this discussion of "Best handheld DMM-Threads", which are also found on the "Test Equipment" pages in many different explanations, which are also worth reading in order to get the best overview...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/By the way: You should watch your local ebay time and again and will always and forever make a good deal - if you are quick enough:In addition to all tips and hints, here is my experience, considering that I have already sold my Fluke 113, 179, 87V and Agilent U1272A and Brymen 829s, 867s again and only kept my Fluke 289 and Keysight U1233A, U1273A and Gossen Metrawatt Energy, PM Xtra as far as handheld DMMs are concerned...If there would be a combination of the "Fluke 289" and the "Metrahit Energy", with any better feature of each one kept over the other, I would never ever buy another DMM from any brand again, apart from a 2nd or 3rd "Fluke 300 Energy"!I wanted to persuade "Elon" to buy Fluke and Gossen Metrawatt GmbH to do so, but he obviously takes too much drugs and isn't any good and trustful partner anymore...maybe all the birds confuse him, too...The truth is, that there is - at the moment - no meter on the market winning any section and with hindsight - for me - it does not make sense to buy several more or less "cheap" models again and again, instead of one good one from the beginning, which is able to do nearly anything...and as you mentioned an upper price tag of 500 Euro, this is what I like to bring to your mind...to think it over...At the moment you can buy a used Fluke 287 in good condition to a fair price of 370 Euro via our local ebay - just as an example, you have to check the offers yourself again and again of course:...and of course you have to pick it up personally to be on the save side and in addition to this I would ask the seller for a picture with backlight on, showing the Info-Page of the DMM. There you see the calibration date and all other important facts......but I will guarantee, that you will be the happiest man of the world, as long as there is no better deal for a Fluke 289 with additional LowZ and LowOhm features, because Brymen is a "compromise" with the resistance issue, the clonky rotary switch and the short backlight-timer, that 220 Euro is quite a sum for being way behind the first front places of the better handheld DMMs!I sold my Brymen 829s and 867s DMMs, as I don't like the clonky rotary switch and also the short backlight-timer is useless for me...and as a linux user the pc-connection is not that easy to use in contrast to Fluke or Keysight or the selfmade one for Gossen Metrawatt!If I were you, I would go all in, because all meters in between are a waste of money, since there is no better handheld DMM than the Fluke 289, respectively 287 (when you don't need the missing two features):All the possibilities, build quality, to save any measurement as a snapshot, being able to look at any time later, speed, 100mF measurement, which no other handheld DMM does, all kinds of AC+DC presentations and so on and so on and so on... Fluke could improve it even more (better display contrast, longer battery life, external power supply...), but it is better to have a trustful meter like this with all the years on its back, than any two years a new smartphone, which no one needs and makes the testgear too unstable and uncertain, which we will never ever want!!!In contrast to "Gossen Metrawatt Energy" with its external power supply and the best internal logging capability with 300'000 samples from 100ms to 9 hour sample interval, where you are able to log over 80 hours with 1 second interval, the Fluke 289 does only 2 hour 47 minutes with 1 second interval, which is a pitty. BUT you can log via the IR-USB-interface together with TestController till the batteries are dead...or you use your own selfmade "external power supply" to log for ages considering the performance target of the manual of course...I would be pleased to highlight any other brand or model like Fluke with its 289/287, but unfortunately there isn't any on closer inspection, even the "Gossen Metrawatt PM Xtra" which is even more expensive than the Fluke 289 is not able to compete against it - only the logging capability is better, but that is by no means worth to buy over the Fluke 289/287:Cheers!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 03:22:59 am
content: And Dave has done video reviews of several DMMsHere's a primer :

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 04:17:26 am
content: Quote from: PushUp on June 06, 2022, 02:59:48 amIf you force it to take one sample every second, yes--but much logging can be done using the setting where it only records (and timestamps) a sample if there is over a certain (selectable) difference in the signal--like looking for power sags. In that mode it is good for a week plus and it still samples every second.The only thing you didn't mention is the warranty which so many seem to dismiss as not worth paying for.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 12:58:49 pm
content: The warranty on the Fluke 287/289 is quite good. I have sent in a couple of 287's that were several years old and had their dial broke off. Fluke gave me a new 287 each time.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 10:21:58 pm
content: As I also went the last year through building my home lab/tinkering place, I also spent some money and time for looking for the perfect solution.Some experience from my job life helped a bit, but in this regard, and with the experiences I have now, probably some things would be a bit different.This said, my 0.02 Eurocents of wisdom:- A multimeter is the core and heart of the bench. This means, that the first DMM you own should be reliable- so that you can use that to repair other DMMs etc. ;-)- Fluke is building very good DMMs (have the 179 at work). But they are geared in robustness to industrial usage, and therefore you pay for quality you probably do not use in an hobby environment- In germany, Welectron.com is distributor for Brymen, and also carries the EEVBlog edition- Question is, what are you doing? The Brymen DMMs offer on paper features that similar priced fluke DMMs do not have, and offer higher resolution. For industrial and maintenance use it usually does not matter, in an elecvtronics environment sometimes nice to have=>If I would today have to choose what Multimeters to use, I would consider the Brymen 786 including some nice and soft test leads. (Got my Agilent U1272 for a decent price on ebay, otherwise I would not have bought it). If you do not need the features the 786 offers, you could maybe save some money and go for the 100-Euro Range of Brymens- but: If you have the money, spend a decent amount on good gear.Also regarding CAT ratings: In a hobby environment you will probably not encounter formally much situations that require CAT III- but: Maybe some time in the future, or when you help someone in moving to a new house, you might pack your DMM and go check if everything is alright, and all of a sudden you are in a CAT III zone- so I personally would want to have some gear that is suited for at least CAT III 600V.Oh, and True RMS is a thing nowadays. Modern DMM can do this all, except for the very cheap stuff and special cases like the Fluke 77 IV.

author: pelican
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 01:04:38 am
content: Thank you for all the answers.I am sharing some thoughts before i go to bed:The ebay Kleinanzeigen listing is interesting about the price.But what bugs me: it says "hardly used". Why are people selling their stuff at all, and then it is even supposed to be as new? I don't believe it all.No information when it was bought, why it is sold etc.If i put 200€ on top of that, i can buy as 'new' (pre-shortage prices).Would it make sense to consider just the 87v for electricians work, putting the buy on hold, maybe sometime later, and the bryman for electronics use, buying it now?As the 768 EEV isn't available for the next months, can i buy the 869s instead? As in, is it the superior model in every aspect?

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 01:30:38 am
content: Well, sometimes people buy the very top-of-the line stuff and realize some time later they actually do not use it much- and then decide to sell it.Happens sometime to granddad that finally in his life wants to own the stuff he always dreamt about and sometimes later he is not doing his hobby and sells his stuff...For the DMM: If you do electricians work, the stuff you usually do is simpler than with electronics. Regarding electrical safety, a decent Brymen DMM is as good as the fluke models, and I am very positive that a 7xx or 8xx Brymen can do nearly everything a fluke DMM can do- probably except hanging around in the switching cabinet on the very cool magnetic hanger fluke provides ;-)So in my opinion you should start with a good quality DMM, and after some time you will know if you really need a fluke DMM- and can then buy it. In the meantime, the price difference is better put into some accessoires like probes, test leads, and good quality tools to work with- this will improve your quality of work way more than the difference between different brands of good quality DMMs would make up for at your current stage you are at.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 02:33:55 am
content: Quote from: pelican on June 07, 2022, 01:04:38 amIf you're buying Fluke, I wouldn't get an 87V for general electrical work, I'd get a 116 and an i400 current clamp. Of course in your country you are expected to have a Duspol as well. But I wouldn't worry so much about the particular meter you get, just get one. In your locale Brymen is available cheaply and supported (warranty), so there probably isn't a wrong one.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 09:26:50 am
content: I think the 869 is a very nice unit. I have never even seen a Brymen meter in real life but reading the specs it seems it's better than the Fluke 289.

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 10:10:15 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on June 07, 2022, 09:26:50 amI think you have misunderstood the datasheet:As an Ex-Brymen-User, there is no way to compare these DMMs, other than calling the Brymen a "cheap compromise", which is worth buying, when you don't want to pay for build quality and additional functionality (backlight timer, 250µS peak-to-peak measurement,...)!However, in this price range it is unfair to be compared, unless you buy a used Fluke vs. a new Brymen, which was my proposal, where the Fluke is alway and forever the better deal and you will also sell it with profit after 5 years of usage in contrast to Brymen!Cheers!

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 11:15:18 am
content: I have quite a number of Flukes. I use my company 87V daily and at home I have the 189, 287 and 289 but none has DC accuracy of 0.02% (The 289 is only 0.025%). None has 500,000 counts resolutions. The 189, 287/289 only have 50,000 count max. When dealing with very high resistance I would use a Megger rather than a DMM.

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 11:58:21 am
content: I had the Brymen 867s with the same pseudo 500'000 count function. The Brymen 867s/869s is a 50.000 Count by default, but you can use the option to activate 500'000 count, which, however, has restrictions and prohibit dual display usage and some other drawbacks in functionality...but as I have sold all my Brymen equipment so far, I cannot check it anymore, but it wasn't something to be useful, when measuring 240 VAC.Nevertheless, I understand that beginners are overwhelmed by the variety of choices, thus I gave my personal view after having had nearly any expensive handheld DMM:The good thing of life is, that you only learn by doing mistakes - so did I and shared my knowledge, that "pelican" does not have to do the same waste of money, when buying his first better handheld DMM - but I am off now and hope for the best!...unfortunately here in Germany there isn't a shop, where you have all the range of Fluke DMMs and other A-brands to compare, but mostly "Voltcraft" being found at Conrad...Cheers!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 02:14:13 pm
content: Looking and the title of the thread and the usage the OP mentions, I think it is detrimental to suggest that only uncompromised solutions are the ones worth looking at - especially for a beginner.Even in the corner cases you mentioned of narrow peak detection (Brymen, Uni-T and Keysight are comparable to Flukes), LowOhms (relative modes with reasonable accuracy are available in even the cheapest models) and maximum capacitance of 100mF (several models reach that,including the cheap UT61Ecorrection: the UT61Esurpassesit to 220mF) make the Flukes a comparatively much more expensive solution. The difference in features that existed when the 87V, 187/189 and 287/289 were released have become very narrow and sometimes supplanted with the current offers.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 04:24:10 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on June 07, 2022, 11:15:18 amComparing 'headline' specs from two different manufacturers doesn't mean a whole lot and 500K counts seems like a gimmick to me. And both meters being discussed here have a nS function for high resistance. I can verify that the 289 is stable and reasonably accurate to 10G (0.10nS), haven't tried the Brymen.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 04:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: PushUp on June 07, 2022, 11:58:21 amAlthough I agree with you generally--especially for professional use--for a hobbyist/beginner it is hard to overlook the price difference since the Fluke will command 4X+ the money of the 869S in the EU. That's enough difference to cover a decent oscilloscope, soldering station and LCR meter. I would actually suggest a less-complex less-expensive meter to start out, like the BM235 or BM257S.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 06:29:02 pm
content: This is also my philosophy- For starters, a decent quality DMM is the most important piece of equipment on the bench. But at the begin of the journey usually people do not know yet what they should use later, to maximize on certain features- and the price difference between some DMM in the 150 € (+/-50) to a new Fluke 179 or 87V, let alone the 289, is big. And for a beginner, it is hard to distinguish between the subtle differences those DMMs might offer...This money could be used to buy other tools, or material for cool projects- and after some while, when people really know which things their next DMM has to have, they can buy their "real" companion for the next 20 years- or maybe realize that the decent quality DMM they already have is very well suited for the job.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 08:06:30 pm
content: I quite agree with bdunham7.You can get a quite decent Brymen DMM for below or around EUR 100, and that is a good way to start.It's quite possible you want a "better" meter at some time, but It's also nice to have more then one DMM on your bench. If you have two or more DMM's you can keep track of multiple things at the same time (for example voltage and current), or use one to constantly monitor the temperature of some maybe-not-correctly-sized heatsink.If you have two DMM's you can also do a sanity check by measuring some value with both DMM's. If they give the same value, you have more confidence it's not some spurious result.Those EUR 100 Brymen meters are already better than what a lot of "hobbyists" and starters would consider buying.

author: taste_tester
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 02:02:38 am
content: Not sure I agree with this.For a friend who was just getting started out, I told him to get one of those super cheap manual ranger DMM on Amazon under $10 with a backlight on the screen, and told him to ignore the current measurement section entirely. (when i got started out i blew out my crappy meter with current measurement not knowing what i was doing and didn't understand my meter gave no consistent reading)I told him don't even get an auto ranging DMM until he knew his way around the manual range. In the amount of time he could have studied how to actually use a Fluke 179 or 87V in its entirety, he was able to learn basics about what the measurementsactually meantas opposed to giving the most accurate measurement to so many digits without understanding why.In other words, why give someone who doesn't understand advanced algebra a powerful graphing calculator?If I had known when I was really getting started out that I had a totally garbage dmm that I blew out (newbie mistake blew it out doing current measurement, kept using it not knowing why it wasn't measuring anything consistently) if I had got even a $50 UNI-T and just stayed off the current measurement section until i understood it then i would have not needed anything differernt for a long time; actually maybe I would still be using it.you say a beginner might go for a fluke 179 or 87v.... what kind of beginner needs this?I have a HP 34401A I always use at my work station but actually my most used meter is a UT89XE - cost me $58 USD.My third most used meter - Fluke 101!Maybe I'm too much of a beginner to even need a fluke 87V?Quote from: nightfire on June 07, 2022, 06:29:02 pm

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 10:34:27 am
content: ...any improvement in decision taking...?!Just an example from yesterday, why I sold my Fluke 113, 179, Brymen 829s, 867s, in order to invest the money in "more or less useful" handheld DMMs for any area of application...with a diode tester up to at least 3.1V instead of only having one up to 2.0V (Brymen) or 2.4V (Fluke).This Fluke 117 was an used local ebay purchase, where I was totally unhappy with, because I had to polish the display an hour, till any scratch was gone, apart from the big one in the cover, so that you get an idea......but the more you do with your testgear, the more you start loving it and it becomes your "beloved one", thus I will keep it forever!Yesterday I changed the backlight LED, as it was quite dark from the beginning. In order to do so, I needed a DMM which is able to measure the voltage drop of a white/blue-ish LED.In this case any DMM from above would have been useless, beacause OL, does not help me in diode test mode, as I need the real values to change it properly:Therefore it is always useful, to get practical examples, which you sometimes need in the daily use. When I add the purchase price of the DMM from above, a used Fluke 287/289 or a used Keysight U1272A/U1273A would have been the better investment till the end of my life!It is the same as with computer equipment: I know that I have to be patient with my old linux notebook with analog ports, but my mother would think, she misclicked a button, repeat it shortly again and again, which would lead to a total chaos with frozen windows - and no one is happy...That is my general point, that especially beginners should consider: A beginner should - theoreatically - have the best DMM, where anything is usable and works perfectly, a professional is able to build his own tools, to get a solution and solve any problem - even with unsuitable testgear......and that was my last remark - now I am curious about the final decision!Cheers!

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 11:12:47 am
content: I have both the Fluke 287 and 289 but they are not the ones I use often. While they offer some functionality not found in others DMM I have and I do use them when I need those functions but the slow boot up and low contrast display make me not wanting to use them unless I measure something I can't do with the others.

author: pelican
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 04:37:50 pm
content: I have given it some thought, and i want to say that i really like the Fluke 289.I checked my finances, and it is possible for me to buy it, if you recommend me to do so.I would use my credit card.But there is one problem: the comparision spreadsheet says it is sold for about 500$, while i can only purchase it for about 850€, which is about 900$.Authorized sellers demand even more. Fluke Homepage says, for lifetime warranty i need to buy it from authorized sellers.Buying now, i would need to buy at inflated prices, that is really bad!What can i do now???Really, really sad.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 04:57:09 pm
content: Not my money, but as bdunham7 says above, for that price you can get a Brymen869S and a "decent oscilloscope, soldering station and LCR meter". You may evenbe able to squeeze in a power supply, and some components and boards to play with.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 05:09:40 pm
content: Quote from: pelican on June 08, 2022, 04:37:50 pmYes, between inflation, VAT and the state of the Euro, they look pricey. Here they are now $750 for the meter and ~$900 for the kit with FVF software and the IR/USB cable. I suppose you could wait for a sale or promotional package, but I don't think you'll see them for $500 anymore. As much as we can wax eloquent about its features and quality, I wouldn't advocate any sort of financial hardship to acquire one. And unless you get a used one very, very cheaply, I'd only buy new. Here in the US you can send them in for service and if they haven't been previously registered or run over by a truck, they'll service them without any questions. I don't think that's true outside the US.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 06:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: pelican on June 08, 2022, 04:37:50 pm

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 07:47:05 pm
content: Ok, one last remark to prevent you from a big mistake:I have never ever told you to buy new!!!Living in Germany you should not buy a Fluke as a private person new, because it is way too expensive and considering the price tag of 779,95 Euro of the Fluke 289:..., it would be really better to invest the money in additional equipment!I think you should calm down, observe your local ebay and as soon as there is an offer near your hometown, which is fair, such as the one I gave you as an example: "Fluke 287 for 370 Euro" instead of paying 738,75 Euro, you drive by and have a look at it!Messgeräte Chemnitz is the one and only dealer here in Germany, which has the best prices as far as Fluke is concerned:https://www.messgeraete-chemnitz.de/messtechnik/multimeter/handmultimeter/318/fluke-289-digital-echteffektiv-logging-multimeter-mit-trenddarstellung...but don't buy it new! Watch your local ebay and then make a bargain, when it is time to do so!I hope you got my point of view: You will never ever buy a Fluke 287 or 289 new, because this sum is really a waste of money, which by all means can be invested any better - especially for you as a beginner!!!Cheers!

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 08:23:05 pm
content: imitation Fluke?

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 08:45:35 pm
content: Quote from: PushUp on June 08, 2022, 10:34:27 amGenerally, I agree with you. But I would look at it a bit more differentiated: A Beginner, in my opinion, should have (independent from the field they move in) reliable, trustworthy gear.This gear should be able to do everything to learn the new stuff, and be of decent quality, so that a beginner is not slowed down in the learning curve by crappy and unreliable equipment. But it does not need to be top shelf with every whistles and bells gear can have. Its like with cars: A beginner probably is best suited as a first car with something smaller, reliable, enough horsepower to pull the car ahead and have some reserve for overtaking other cars, and not too many knobs and fancy assistants in the cockpit.No need to have some nice and shiny Mercedes Benz E-Class with the whole enchilada of add-ons...In our case, as we are talking DMMs, I would think that a first DMM should provide the basic funktions that are needed everyday, and do them very well. This would include basic DC/AC voltage and amps, resistance, capacity of caps and diode test. Also some beeper function when you check for conduction is nice.Everything else I would consider luxury for a beginner, like mixed AC+DC for measurement of ripple current, high voltage diode test so that a LED can be tested directly, or dual thermocouples with differential temp...And I would want a DMM that I can trust to protect me in case of fatal error, like the classic move: Putting cables in amps sockets (so low resistance input) and measuring some voltages...And this level of trust I only have with a few selected manufacturers.For comparison: At work I use for I think 15 years now a Fluke 179 (at the second employer), privately for electronics tinkering I managed to get a good offer on a used Agilent U1272A. So I was no newbie to DMMs as such, but I really had to adjust myself to the differences in handling the U1272. Higher counts and update rate also make up for a very jittery display of values, whereas the Fluke with its comparatively lower counts and update rate is (at least for me) easier to read.And in the industrial environment (Datacenter, I worked mainly on operations and had occassionally pre-qualify faults before calling in the contractors, mainly worked on HVAC systems and managed a power-quality monitoring system (ION Enterprise/APC Struxureware), where sometimes I had to qualify if the readings were right- so had to do some measurements in the mains distribution room. With a 1000 kVA-transformer of 20kV powering it, this was definitely a CAT IV area).And the Fluke 179 did this job very well, and reliably. (And i loved the magnetic hanger)- on paper, the 179 is specced quite ordinary, compared with other recent offerings.To be honest: I am really thinking about gettting a used 175 or 177 as a "daily driver" for quick tests in addition to my U1272- simply because this is sometimes a bit more straightforward to use, quite easygoing and a bit smaller, which is nice in handling.My thoughts: For the price of a new Fluke 289 (or maybe even a used one in good condition) I would get me a new Brymen in the 150 €€€ region, with 0.1% base accuracy, and spend then around 100 € for an LCR tester- especially when dealing with capacitors a lot, a DMM cannot measure all relevant data like the ESR.Then a beginners oscilloscope is another 250 €, got myself a Rigol DS1102Z-E, which is simple, but ok for the first steps. And then there are lots of tools to buy, like a soldering iron or breadboarding stuff...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 08:51:32 pm
content: Quote from: PushUp on June 08, 2022, 07:47:05 pmI happen to think that the warranty is a significant portion of the value proposition. Especially if you are looking at one of the older models with the supercapacitor issue. Mine had that, they serviced it but it still wasn't quite right (although the meter was 100% usable and I'd never have paid to get it repaired further) and on the second look they replaced my 12-year-old meter with a new one. So at this point in time, I'm looking at a guaranteed lifetime of at least 20 years--perhaps longer--for my original investment of $400 or so.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 10:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 08, 2022, 08:51:32 pmWhen you sent your 289 to Fluke for repair did they ask you for proof of purchase? I sent in several Fluke meters under warranty and they didn't ask for any proof of purchase just the serial number. So I think in this case a used one also has the warranty.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 10:41:53 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on June 08, 2022, 10:34:58 pmNo, I just registered the serial number and then entered an RMA that showed 'in warranty'. I wouldn't even know where the proof of purchase was anymore. I presume if there was an issue with the serial number they might block the RMA, but no the US Fluke service center typically isn't asking for proof of purchase. A unit purchased used very well might skate by, but I can't say for sure that it will happen every time. I've heard that this policy may not be the same in other areas.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 11:16:35 pm
content: You could get the ~60$ Fluke 101, and if/when you outgrow it(or break it), get something better. Or get something like this:

author: taste_tester
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 12:19:34 am
content: Quote from: tunk on June 08, 2022, 11:16:35 pmI have both the an8008 and fluke 101. giving the an8008 away to a friend soon, i almost never use it.Fluke 101 will always be one of my most used meters.The dang banana plugs are perfectly spaced for plugging directly into lab equipmentand joe smith concluded the fluke 101 may be the STRONGEST multimeter under $100.If he can't kill it with all of his transient generators, no beginner is going to damage it, but easily one may find they outgrow its features as I didstill it's my #1 choice forsafetybetween all DMM I own, for good reason-

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 10:26:34 am
content: Nowadays, you need to check the voltage drop of a white/blue-ish LED with your handheld DMM, as they are everywhere and need to be replaced, when dead, thus any handheld DMM with a diode tester up to only 2V is a no go for a beginner, having only one DMM and no other equipment, like LCR-Meter, ESR-Tester, ZenerDiode-Tester and so on...:These handheld DMMs do not measure a white/blue-ish LED (only some examples):Fluke 101, 107, 110, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 175, 177, 179Brymen 829s, 867s, 869sKeysight U1233AThese handheld DMMs do measure a white/blue-ish LED (only some examples):Fluke 87V, 287, 289Brymen 789 (I haven't checked the inferior models)Keysight U1272A, U1273A...and maybe, after all discussions, the Brymen 789 is the best compromise to go for a beginner:https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM789-MultimeterSome disadvantages:- no dual display- no pc connection (no use of TestController, which is a pitty)- no continous backlight- clonky rotary switch- 190 Euro is not a bargain, but probably a fair price for the functions you get, compared to a Fluke 87V or a Fluke 179:Some advantages:+ diode tester up to 3V+ LowZ mode to check batteries, for example+ temperature measurement+ zero mode for test leads+ capacitance at least up to 10'000 µF+ AutoHold function...and in the end you will see, what is important for you, when buying the next better handheld DMM...My advice, to look for a used Fluke 287/289 is probably too difficult and expensive for a beginner to go, as long as you don't have the possibility to compare all DMMs with each other personally and in real situations, where you have to use them to cope with different tasks, to see yourself, why there is a big price difference between the DMMs...Cheers!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 12:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: PushUp on June 09, 2022, 10:26:34 amAlthough I agree that at least 3V is nice, heaps of meters (including many ultra-cheap Asian ones) have this capability already - this is not a feature of only a few selected and expensive models. Your list could also feature a bunch of off-brands such as Richmeters 113D, Mestek DM91A, UT89X, Fochanc DM007 and many others - not to mention that the UT89XD has a 12V/5mA LED test mode that is useful for the high power chip LEDs. Also, an ESR tester or LCR meter are not the tools to do this particular function. Perhaps you were referring to the multi-component testers such as the GM328, can be had for only a marginal cost when related to the difference between a 287/289 and a BM869S/BM789?Quote from: PushUp on June 09, 2022, 10:26:34 amI agree the used option is risky, but mostly because of the possibility of getting a bad equipment - case of many 189/289 meters that had failing caps or corroded contacts due to leaked batteries, for example. One can always ask the seller for specific photographs of these details, but you can never be sure. My 189 bought used, for example, had a corner that was obviously victim of severe impact that broke the screw and and the small plastic lips, thus decreasing the mechanical robustness. However, even for my trained eye, the damage was invisible from the outside and only when I disassembled the unit I noticed the glue and the very weakened section. I fixed all this, but it is indeed a risk that no beginner should be exposed.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 01:03:55 pm
content: I do not take the diode check function for LED that important. If I need to check those high voltage LED I can simply build something to test them. I need to check diode that has voltage drop less than 1V much more often.

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 01:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on June 09, 2022, 01:03:55 pmWe are not talking about you, but about the best handheld DMM to buy for our new forum member "pelican", which should cover nearly any possible usage in his household, without buying extra test equipment and of course not building something on his own, just in order to measure a simple white LED.So, name a meter, which is as good as the Brymen 789 and better than this:+ diode tester up to 3V+ LowZ mode to check batteries, for example+ temperature measurement+ zero mode for test leads+ capacitance at least up to 10'000 µF+ AutoHold functionCheers!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 07:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: PushUp on June 09, 2022, 01:25:32 pmBM235 covers all your highlights except auto hold and excessive pricing for a beginner. For ~85 Euro, it is quite the offer. The BM257 has PC communications and bargraph (much more useful IMHO than backlight and autohold, but YMMV) and it costs just above 110 Euro - its only compromise is the 2V diode measurement. Both are much more compact, equally robust and can cover a very wide range of applications in the bench and around the household.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 07:58:20 pm
content: I just happened to notice in the EEVBlog BM235 manual is says that Lo-Z doesn't work below 8 volts. So not so useful for batteries and discharging caps. Does anyone know why this is?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 08:17:56 pm
content: It might be just the measurement itself - the resistor in parallel with the input is most probably connected all the times.The LoZ is not very useful to test the most common batteries (AAA, AA, C, D, etc.), as its resistor is usually a few kΩ - something that translates to a pair of mA on typical alkaline 1.5V batteries. A dedicated battery tester with some 20~40mA for AAA and AA is much more suitable for this.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 08:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 09, 2022, 08:17:56 pmThe ~2-3K impedance is good for coin cells and the like.From the manual:Dave's Note: You can use the AutoV LowZ mode to discharge capacitors to a safelevel! (Can be slow on big caps) You'll even get a handy voltage reading to knowwhen it's safely discharged. Note that the LowZ mode does not work under 8VDC,at which point it will be a 10M discharge.And below a snip from the manual. It looks confusing, I'd need to physically test one to see what the heck is going on there.

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 09:56:36 am
content: Allthough my Metrahit Energy does not have a bargraph either, I wouldn't consider to buy a general handheld DMM without one; the Brymen 257s seems to be the first one with this smaller form factor...However, as my grandpa always told me: The one, who buys cheap, does mostly have to buy twice, which does not help you to save some money in the end...Therefore, I would rather wait, to save some money, to go directly for the Brymen 789, as you have the better values, a quite long backlight timer, a second temperature measurement, the better paper white display and so on...and you don't have to consider to buy any handheld DMM soon, as you have quite a good package being worth 190 Euro.......by the way:Concerning the two issues of the Brymen 789 "FW version" and "beeper-shielding" as mentioned by joe smith in his video:ht*****tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciwBB5kYvJM..., I asked welectron yesterday and they now sell the newest versions of the 789 from production line 2022-03 with newest FW and including the shield, thus there shouldn't be any issues any more, when using the original magnetic hanger...Cheers!

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 08:11:57 pm
content: First; it is important to realize that no meter is perfect and you will eventually need more than one. Second; if you are working with line voltages or high energy systems, you should be buying a CAT rated meter from a highly reliable manufacture.Now for some suggestions:First please consider a meter supplied from the EEVBlog store. The reason here is to support one of the better forums on the net. This may seem odd but you have already gotten considerable help and opinion due to this forum. The good thing here is that Daves selection of meters is good enough for a beginner.if the above is objectionable, figure out a budget and log onto the various electronics suppliers and list out all the meters available by price. Once you get above about $75 dollars, there is a greater potential for getting a good meter by random choice. However I would make a choice based upon vendors being long standing and hopefully you can find good technical resews of the meters being considered.At the bench handheld meters are not all that functional on the work bench. This is good reason to consider a used bench meter. However these days there are interesting meters to consider that fill the need for a low end bench meter. For example OWON's XDM1000's series, Then there is the ADA Fruit $99.95 bench top all in one device. Get on Amazon and you can find a rather large selection of Bench top meters such as the VC8045. The point is there are lots of options when it comes to putting a bench top meter on your desk. Few bench tops are so configured to be usable in the higher level CAT environments but on a hobbiest bench that might not be an issue. If there is no CAT rating at all offered up, it is probably best to skip the model. I only point these options out because at times a handheld meter at the bench is a pain in the behind. Sometimes it is even a pain in the field.You might want to consider non traditional suppliers to this industry. For example Snap-On has some interesting meters if you can absorb the cost. Some of these Snap-on meters take a very non traditional layout for a portable hand held meter. At the lower end your local hardware stores will have either rebranded or meters from the likes of Greenlee, Klien and others. I just wanted to point this out because people forget about the local hardware store, and the suppliers to industries that are not traditionally thought of as "electronics".In any event there are more options for somebody new to electronics than ever before. This can make making a choice difficult, but look at this way if you get deep into electronics this will not be your last multimeter. On the other hand if this interest never becomes an obsession then you will have one meter to serve you for decades to come. Personally if you can afford it I'd support EEVBlog with your first meter purchase.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 08:38:02 pm
content: I'm too lazy to figure out the details but Dave has been quite generous by posting the complete schematics of the 121GW.In Low-Z It's probably a PTC in series with "something".https://www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/When the 121GW was new I almost bought it, because I liked a lot of it's features you do not see in most meters.But as always, there were a few things holding me back, and one of the main reason I did not buy it is because of the closed software.Later I decided that if I wanted a reliable High(ish) end meter, it would be a Brymen, but it's still a (long term) goal to design my own benchtop DMM.It does not have to be terribly accurate, but it has to be able to sample at a few kHz, have PC connection and mains power supply (Big Li-Ion pack optional?), data logging and have a programmable ability, such as for example calculating current from an arbitrary value shunt resistor, convert LDR resistance to Lux and those sort of things.In that case I would use my Brymen as reference to calibrate the homebrew meter.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 10:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on June 10, 2022, 08:38:02 pmAll of which can be done with a Digilent Analog Discovery 2:https://digilent.com/reference/test-and-measurement/analog-discovery-2/specificationsAnd the software allows for scripting...

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2022, 11:01:57 pm
content: The analog discovery has too many limitations to be worth it's price for me.I probably would have bought it for somewhere between EUR150 and EUR200.but it can measure only upto 25V, has a too low input impedance for it's volt meter (only 1Meg, I'd expect at least 10Meg)It's power supplies only go upto 5V, while I'd like some 12 to 15V power supplies for some opamps, and between the too high (for me) price range combined with those quite severe limitations I've lost interest. I have not even looked at (auto) ranging capability of it's DMM. It does seem to have some autoranging capability, but is not particularly accurate.The whole thing looks like a jack of all trades, but master of none. DMM has low accuracy / resolution, scope has a low sample rate, power supply has very low voltage and current limits etc. If I wanted such a gadget I would be more likely to buy the EspoTek Labardor or the ExpEyes. Performance of those is still quite a bit lower, but the're fun gadgets to play with and fully open sourced so you have much more grip on making them do exactly what you want them to do.I also don't care much about the scope part because I've already got an old Rigol DS1052E (Thinking about upgrading with Siglent 1204X-e).The Digilent thing is in between everything. It's too expensive to buy just for fun, and it's not good enough to view it as a serious instrument.The Analog Discovery Pro has better spec's but it's extremely big, priced far above my budget and it's software is windoze only.And it's also in my nature that I'd rather donate to open source projects in the hope they get improved over time than pay for commercial stuff wherever I have the opportunity to do so.So instead I may build something around an ADS1220. It's quite affordable, 20 bits claimed noisefree resolution, PGA and built in reference. 2kHz samplerate is also adequate, and it will also have a built-in (or attachable) display, so an PC is optional. I've also looked at the Skullcom meters but they look too weird a mishmash. I seems to want to get better specs just by applying more expensive parts and this distorts the price to performance ratio. but if it ever gets finished, it's not going to be a short-term project for me.