NSW endeavour - billing in 3phase solar systems - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: furmek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 12:55:06 am
content: I'm trying to confirm how billing works on 3 phase solar inverters but I found conflicting information on the web.I'll use an example as it's easier.say I'm generating 3kW and I have a 2kW load:L1 sends 1kW to gridL2 sends 1kW to gridL3 pulls 1kW from the grid (this is where the load is)In this case:1 - I'm being paid for 1kW export2 - I'm being paid for 2kW export and I'm paying for 1kW usageCan anyone please say one way or the other with any level of confidence?Edit:link to an article:https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/3-phase-solar-wars-menace-phantom-imports/comments under article say:Australia uses net metering (sum everything up and charge for net import/export)New Zealand: charge each phase separately?Edit2:answer inthis post

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 01:40:51 am
content: Do you have a connection contract and T&Cs type documentation?I'd suggest it would be kWh based on 3-ph average. The PV inverter can only export balanced phase power, so whatever else imbalances the phases is just like nominal load imbalances which you would pay for as a kWh summation.

author: furmek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 02:37:28 am
content: Somehow I failed to think about my contract with my provider. Let me see if I can find it there.

author: furmek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 02:56:40 am
content: Nope, nothing there regarding how feed in vs usage is calculated.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 03:13:39 am
content: For at least residential the style of billing you get is based off your meter type (which IIRC you can pay to get changed to a different model of meter, but it's not free). My house has a single tariff rate spinny disk single-phase meter.Go have a look at your meter. It might have a part number and a datasheet that exposes what numbers it outputs.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 03:30:35 am
content: It's not possible to sanely bill three phases separately.Consider a capacitive load between L1 and L2, and two active power (1ph) meters on L1 and L2. L1 will source x Watt, L2 will sink x Watt. Net power will be 0.

author: furmek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 04:14:45 am
content: This all steams from this article:https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/3-phase-solar-wars-menace-phantom-imports/looks like Australia given up on billing 3 phases separately but New Zealand still does that.My sparky skills are not good enough to see a problem in the example you've given.If the load was purely capacitive you would end up at net zero but some cost billing wise. I think energy distributor would not complain about that.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 04:42:37 am
content: Keep an eye on outdated news stories since the rules are being fiddled with more than ever.Your retailer should be able to explain it to you satisfactorily.That said, I'm still arguing with Endeavour/Origin over smart meter data. Law says they must provide it. And using terms such as CSV and NEM12 in many request is beyond anyone's comprehension apparently.https://support.solarquotes.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/360001312176-How-to-access-your-smart-meter-data-Out of interest, I wonder if you can gain access to your own meter usage data to your expectation?

author: furmek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 06:00:50 am
content: I'm with Endeavour/Alinta those guys were unable to produce a bill for 11 months.I've asked about data (as in smart meter readings/logs) I've been told "we will email a csv to you". Haven't heard since.I'm thinking about using those nice schneider/clipsal power meters (schneider powertag) but the pricing is insane.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 07:23:31 am
content: Quote from: furmek on November 03, 2022, 06:00:50 amAccording to Endeavour, the energy supplier (Alinta/Origin etc) has to 'contact the company that collects the data from the meter, and get the information you are requesting.'QuoteAnd it's a duplication of effort and hardware. But what we are getting back from the power company is nonsense.I really want just a non-5g, Ethernet or wifi one with data output not an app, but haven't found anything. It's annoying to have to need to anything.In the next few days, I've got to start taking this meter matter further with the authorities until I get what I want.I can certainty raise your predicament with them as well and see if I can be given a direct contact within these companies. Feel free to share whatever further relevant info you're comfortable with. I'm pretty angry about getting fobbed off. Sounds like I'm not the only one.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 03:33:56 pm
content: Three-phase power meters are pretty cheap. Siemens 7KM2200 series is about 200 bucks (7KM2200-2EA40-1EA1) and does everything that one wants.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 08:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on November 03, 2022, 03:30:35 amYeah and MID meters are required to have only one positive energy accumulator anyway, I don't understand how anyone can bill differently on different phases unless they use some special/weirdo meter, or 3 separate 1-phase meters.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 09:48:55 pm
content: Quote from: uer166 on November 03, 2022, 08:44:55 pmCitation required! Checked the EU MID directive and nothing like that appears.3 phase utility meters herecanaccumulate on the different phases independently, and there are too many unobservable steps between the metering and billing for people to see what's actually going on.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 10:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 03, 2022, 09:48:55 pmThis is directly forbidden by the MID directive.2004/22/EC:QuotePresentation on this [in German]:https://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/fachabteilungen/abteilung_9/9.2_gesetzliches_messwesen_und_konformitaetsbewertung/9.21/252_ptb-seminar/Vortrag20.pdf

author: furmek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 02:40:30 am
content: I finally found someone who was able to answer my question.Turns out there is a third company that owns the meter and sends the data to my retailer.Quotethis is from a representative ofQuoteNot easy to find this info though.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 09:08:14 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 03, 2022, 09:48:55 pmMy bad, I meant more like, "the minimum requirement is one single accumulator", and that's how those meters I designed usually (I've designed and certified one oddball dual 3-phase MID meter). Internally you can accumulate whatever you want of course, but onlyspecificvalues are allowed to be used for billing, and it seems like the the directive does indeed forbid multiple billed accumulators in a roundabout way, which I was not aware of.The above is also why people shouldn't worry about "breaking" some aspects of MID meters using badly behaved loads such as power factor measurement, frequency measurements, harmonics, RMS currents and voltages etc etc. There are plenty of situations where one can make a few readings inaccurate without affecting the metrologically controlled energy accumulators.