In need of a fresh perspective- remote inflation and release of balloons - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: M4dsc1enti$t
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 04:23:08 am
content: I'm working on a project to remotely fill and release balloons,and I'm trying to figure out how to hold onto the one way nozzles I've seen @https://www.amazon.com/Barrel-Safety-Helium-Balloon-Valves/dp/B009LM7FG0. The only thing I can think of is having a motorized turn table which will grip roughly 15 nozzles at the same time when turned in one direction,and release them in the other. For means of gripping the balloons I'm thinking about making apertures for each nozzle,but have come here to see if anyone can give think of a simpler way of accomplishing the same goal. Link for the apertures in mind here:https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-12-leaves-Mechanical-Irirs/#intro. I really appreciate any input. For those that are curious,I'm planning on making fulgerite from silica with lightning,hence the remote activation.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 06:26:39 am
content: Two jaws clamping the valve one fixed and the other attached to and driven by a cheap and nasty DC solenoid opening to release. Parts 3D printed including a base that could be screwed into some sort of timber or metal frame.KISS always

author: M4dsc1enti$t
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 07:15:17 pm
content: Hmm definitely easier to make than the intricate apertures. With about 15 solenoids id have to have a decent power supply. I'll try it out, thanks

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 09:33:57 pm
content: Must you be able to individually retain and release the 15 balloons? If not, a single solenoid could do the job using a rail-like assembly to control all clamps at once.However, even 15 individual solenoids isn't a huge deal. Given what you're doing, even if you needed to release multiples at once you could stagger them by a couple hundred milliseconds to spread out the current spikes and balloons, being what they are, aren't likely to notice or complain.That would ease your power supply specs.I agree, Keep It Simple. You're doing this remotely, so reliability looms large as a priority.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 11:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: M4dsc1enti$t on April 30, 2019, 07:15:17 pmSkip the power supply and use a battery. Depending on how your grid is locally one less failure point in a storm. Modern R/C 3S LiPo pack and a cheap balance charger will be close enough for a 12V solonoid. A 2000mA battery will deliver 20-40C+ comfortably so 40-80A.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 01:52:28 am
content: You can get solenoids that latch, so they don't need to be energized to hold, then if you're staggering release timings the power requirement is actually really low.Though I think there may be an easier way. What about something like this: A lower fixed position disk with a pacman slot cut out of it, an upper disk that is motorized and has 15 holes that fit the balloon nozzle and some extra. Position the two disks close enough together that the full nozzle can't fit on end - maybe around half the length of the nozzle. Load it up with balloons by inserting the nozzle at an angle, so with the force of the balloon pulling up, there's enough friction to hold it in place. To release, rotate the top disk and all the balloons left in it, when they rotate over the pacman slot, the nozzle hangs free and the balloon can float up through the hole.Would probably take some revisions to get right, may have a maximum reliable speed that is lower than you want, and doesn't support launching multiple at once.... but if you can get the physical aspect of it down, the electronics could be a motor with a gearbox, a battery, and a switch.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 06:36:56 am
content: You might be able to attach a small thermoplastic tube to the neck of each balloon with a retaining collar, then use a heated pinch seal mechanism to seal the tube and release it.I would also suggest using hydrogen as it's cheaper than helium, has more lifting power and unlike helium it's a renewable resource.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 06:45:04 am
content: Mmm Hydrogen around electricity either stray static or on purpose = Possible Backyard Hindenburgs

author: Jim-0000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 08:39:57 am
content: A fresh perspective would be to re-consider releasing any balloons into the atmosphere.http://balloonsblow.org/laws-concerning-balloons/&https://gizmodo.com/that-time-cleveland-released-1-5-million-balloons-and-c-1565731191?IR=T

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 09:03:41 am
content: Plastic balloons, along with nylon/polyester strings and ribbons should be banned. Only latex and cellophane balloons, with natural fibre ribbons and string should be permitted.Hydrogen isn't a bad gas to use for small balloons to be used outdoors, away from naked flames. It's cheap, renewable and the environmental impact is minimal. The risks can be minimised by mixing it with an inert gas such as nitrogen. It only has to be lighter than air to work.

author: Jim-0000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 10:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 01, 2019, 09:03:41 amThey are in a growing number of countries.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 10:55:16 pm
content: I suppose children can always go back to playing with lawn darts.Everything fun from when I was a kid is either banned or politically incorrect these days.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 11:39:34 pm
content: Lawn darts were great, we played with them all the time when I was a kid. I find it rather sad that they were banned over a very small number of accidents involving improper use. I know I probably sound like an old geezer lamenting the state of the world but it really seems like we have become obsessed with protecting everybody from everything, thus bypassing natural selection and creating a generation of even more idiotic idiots. People who are shielded and protected from every threat the world has to offer never really grow up and never learn to deal with failure. Some of the most educational events in my life that left the most lasting impressions have been the occasional spectacular failures and times I had close brushes with death or serious injury. A bunch of my friends have kids and it's crazy the stuff I see, it makes the most neurotic and paranoid overprotective parents I ever encountered in my childhood look almost reckless.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 11:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: M4dsc1enti$t on April 30, 2019, 04:23:08 amA free balloon wouldn't be any use for attracting lightning, therefore the balloons the O.P. is planning to release must be tethered, and wont fall foul of free ballon release laws.For a simple cheap and reliable release mechanism, consider a wooden clothespeg with the spring reversed so it opens itself, held closed by a loop of fusewire or by a polyester thread tied round it and a low-ohm resistor. Blow the fusewire with a current pulse, or melt the thread by overheating the resistor to release the ballon.For the inflation, probably the easiest option would be to use a chemical hydrogen gas generator. The quantity of reagents used can be chosen to provide the desired volume of gas not to over or under inflate the balloon. Seehttps://www.thatsgeeky.com/2011/11/producing-hydrogen-gas-using-sodium-hydroxide-and-aluminum/If the sodium hydroxide solution is held back in a reservoir by a wax plug, that plug could easily be melted by a coil of resistance wire to initiate the reaction.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2019, 12:17:22 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 01, 2019, 11:39:34 pmLook to your left and to your right and see how many of us survived our medieval child hoods .Its astounding!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 05:07:29 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on May 01, 2019, 10:55:16 pmI don't have a problem with lawn darts and other toys which carry risks, such as chemistry sets, but plastic balloons are totally different. A responsible adult wouldn't allow their child to drop litter, so why is releasing a balloon any different? It may not be so immediate, but the effect is the same: rubbish dumped randomly in the environment. I'm not even advocating a total ban on releasing balloons, just those which contain non-biodegradable materials.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 05:56:05 pm
content: I don't advocate dumping plastic all over but in the grand scheme of things I have to wonder if balloons are really that big of a problem. I think I've stumbled across the remains of a balloon on the ground maybe 4 or 5 times in my life, compared to things like cigarette butts, beverage containers and shopping bags it's insignificant.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2019, 06:56:09 pm
content: Quote from: M4dsc1enti$t on April 30, 2019, 04:23:08 amI see the need for remote release. But is the remote filling worth the extra hassle? I would tend to manually prefill the balloons and set them up in a simple remote release mechanism.Granted, once prefilled, the balloons won't last forever. You may have to discard a few when the thunderstorm does not show up as planned. But you would save yourself a lot of development hassle and parts cost. (And probably also a lot of lost gas and lost balloons due to an unreliable mechanism...) And you could simply knot the balloons up, avoiding the cost and weight of valves.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 12:57:00 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 01, 2019, 11:39:34 pmI lived to become an adult and I have the scars to prove it. Of course I can no longer differentiate between the childhood and adult scars, they all blend together.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 03:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 04, 2019, 05:56:05 pmI agree in principle. The difference is that packaging and cigarette butts in theory are fine if they're disposed of in a responsible manner and are the result of carelessness. Releasing balloons is more of a conscience decision.Also note that just because you don't notice balloon remains, it doesn't mean they aren't a problem or are insignificant. The usual kind of litter is more concentrated in places where people will go. Balloon remnants will be scattered more randomly. Awareness is another thing. I can't remember ever noticing balloon debris, until I got a nephew who's obsessed with balloons and frequently finds them, in the park, rivers and ponds, so I suspect there more of a problem, than many think.The main argument against this is that there are plenty of biodegradable materials which could be used to make balloons. Natural rubber is the obvious one, but cellophane could be used instead of polypropylene film. I suppose the same could be said for packaging and I wholeheartedly agree, even if in some cases it makes certain items more expensive.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 06:53:53 pm
content: Aren't most balloons latex? It seems like a reasonable material to use, it certainly breaks down readily after a few years. I found a latex glove I had left in the sun for a few months and it turned to dust when I tried to pick it up.Packaging is definitely an issue, I get annoyed not just at the types of packaging used but the excessive quantity I often encounter.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:33:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 05, 2019, 06:53:53 pmYes, balloons are traditionally latex, but plastic has become more common in recent years.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:41:56 pm
content: That's annoying, I'm all for sticking to latex then, I was not aware of the change. Not that I use many balloons.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 01, 2019, 11:39:34 pmIt's just a kid! It's not like you can't replace them! You can always make more!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on May 06, 2019, 11:43:03 pmWell, my point is you can't protect everyone from every possible danger, and banning every object that could possibly hurt somebody is not a solution. When I was a kid we had lawn darts, there were jungle gyms and big swings and climbing ropes and sides and whatnot on the playground. When it snowed we were allowed to have snowball fights, and my friends and I spent our days during the summer roaming the neighborhood on our bikes and doing kid stuff, we'd come home when it was time for dinner. We got scuffs and scrapes, a few times someone got a broken bone but nobody I knew ever died.Now there is so much fun stuff that kids aren't allowed to do anymore because everyone is paranoid about someone getting hurt but people end up being harmed in other ways. Sedentary lifestyles lead to obesity and other health problems, isolation and overprotective parents lead to mental health problems. A kid who has never been weened off parental protection is ill equipped to enter into the real world and take care of themselves. The world is full of dangers and a person needs to be capable of dealing with them. It's things like helicopter parenting, telling everyone that they're special, not letting anyone fail that lead to things like the incident of the kid shooting up their school after being rejected by a girl. He couldn't deal with rejection or failure.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 01, 2019, 09:03:41 amMany years ago I was attending a wedding where people were very nicely dressed. It was sort of a garden event with a big tent with food and drinks. Some lady came into the tent with a bunch of balloons. Some guy standing right behind her thought it would be funny to burst a balloon with his lit cigarette. The explosion was huge and luckily no one was seriously hurt but there were a bunch of ladies knocked to the ground and not looking so elegant any more.Also, when I was a teenager and playing with chemistry sets I was generating hydrogen by the method of acid plus metal filings. Except that I could see no obvious signs of hydrogen being produced so I thought a flame would indicate if it was happening. Even though the quantity of gas must have been negligible the explosion blew the whole setup to pieces and I was lucky to not have lost an eye or two. I was wearing no face shield or any other protection.Beware of hydrogen.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:53:45 am
content: Have any of you balloon moralist's realised the new member and OP hasn't been back since you started talking the evils of Balloons?They never stated anything about tether or not and balloon type and we may not see them back because of it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:47:56 am
content: Obviously hydrogen requires care, but it's an excellent lifting gas for un-manned devices. If you haven't played with it before it's worth setting off a few hydrogen balloons in a controlled situation, it's fun too.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 08:45:50 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on May 07, 2019, 12:53:45 amThat happens in many threads. The OP seems to have no interest and, in the meanwhile, a lot of people are asking questions and speculating. A lot of OPs are "drivebys" where the OP loses interest and doesn't return.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 09:20:55 am
content: It does happen for sure but Driveby Moralising with little to no information about the OP's intentions from the peanut gallery doesn't help.

author: M4dsc1enti$t
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 11:02:31 pm
content: Lol so yea, kinda hard to have conductivity without tethering the balloons,so yes they will be tethered. Lol this thread really went off on a tangent. Planning on having the setup in the country unmonitored,will be triggered via gsm. I won't be doing it anywhere rural bc I don't want to electrify water lines or blow any electronics. Buckets will be full of silica,and grounded with a copper pipe thru the bottom. Copper wire to tether to the balloons. The base with the buckets will be a ways off from all the electronics and where the balloons will inflate,and I'll have a mechanism that holds onto the tether during inflation,so when released, the balloons will be pulled off to the side as far away from the circuitry as I distanced the buckets.do a Google image search of fulgerite,stuff looks pretty cool. Thought it would be fun to try making. sorry it took me so long to get back here

author: M4dsc1enti$t
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 11:13:52 pm
content: Also I'm no expert, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that lightning will instantly vaporize the balloons,for all you anti balloon ppl

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 05:03:44 am
content: It sounds like a fun project.So Battery driven then makes a lot of sense and Lithium if they need to sit idle for extended periods as they will hold charge?GSM or maybe even consider LORA even data over HAM band of some sort or similar to avoid needing a SIM card?For the Balloon release mech either cheap Solenoids and or maybe R/C servos to open gas valves?

author: M4dsc1enti$t
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 10:36:29 pm
content: Yea idk why I said power supply hehe,I meant battery. As for Lora and ham radio,I'm 90km from where it would be set off so I don't think it would work with that distance. Grandparents own several acres of unused land,so there'd be less chance of it being tampered with there

author: M4dsc1enti$t
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 10:40:18 pm
content: I do like the idea of using a servo for the gas. Someone also suggested using a spring loaded clip to hold onto the balloons and then a pulse of a solenoid to quickly release them without much power consumption,which I think I might go with

author: M4dsc1enti$t
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 14, 2019, 01:31:03 am
content: Well I had decided to go with two plastic plates positioned on top of each other with holes drilled in them for the one way nozzles for the balloons, one plate would be fixed and the other would be motorized to pinch the nozzles.. But for the life of me I couldn't think of a way to keep pressure on the connection between the line for the gas and the nozzles themselves, not to mention it would have had to be about 66" to accommodate as many balloons as I wanted. Then I thought of a whole new design that solves such problem. I'm going to have two pvc tubes, one that fits inside of the other almost perfectly, so not too snug so they cant move. Same idea with pinching the nozzles,but this way I can seal the ends of the tubes and the whole assembly will be pressurized during inflation. I have a worm gear motor coming in from Amazon, and I'm going to see if I can special order a rack and pinion gear that will fit with my motor to move the inner pvc tube to apply pressure to the nozzles. Possibly add a thin layer of silicone caulk around the edges of each hole as makeshift gaskets. I've attached some crude drawings I did at work today instead of my actual job.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2019, 03:15:56 am
content: Had a very quick look online these valves look easier to lock onto your manifold due to the step in the inflation tube. Drop an o'ring in the stem section somewhere to retain the gas while inflating.And use a driven comb like this below actuated by solonoid/s or to retain and release?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2019, 03:34:19 am
content: So I was bored with cleaning up my shackCoffee and CAD ideas.