I need 230VDC at 18 amps for an electromagnet - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 09:47:19 pm
content: Bought an old 38” ~2000 lb Square D electromagnet at auction for three reasons:1) Interest in electromagnets from doing one for grade school Show & Tell.2) Rebuilding an old P&H crane.3) It was cheap. Less than $500.Then things got more challenging. This beast requires 18 amps at 230VDC.Been studying for a few days. Seems I need a large rectifier and, quite possibly, a 3 phase generator to help turn 360VAC to 230VDC.I’ve done off grid solar but, other than that, pretty much an electrical rookie. To put it lightly.The knowledge base is certainly here. Donning my flame retardant coveralls…but hope springs eternal. Thanks in advance!

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 10:02:28 pm
content: First off, why do you have 360VAC 3Ph?? That seems non standard. Since you are in the U.S. you should have access to 120VAC single phase which when retified would put you around 140DC. Using a capacitor filter bank. You may actually need a 20 amp rated 240VAC variac (can be found surplus but not cheap) so you can control the magnetism from zero to full strength. If you have 230VDC on that magnet and break the circuit with a simple switch you are going to see arc flash like lightning bolts. You will need a way to lower the voltage over time.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 10:08:13 pm
content: Is this a single or 3phase magnet, I'm not totally sure from what you said.I assume it's a single DC coil, since you said DC.Do you want to use it seriously, or just play with it for a few seconds?If you're only playing around with short runs you could easily get 230VDC at 18amps with some RC lipo batteries. Or a whole lot of car batteries, Breaking Bad style hehe.Something like 11x small 6S packs which are like $17 each would give you around that voltage.So like $187 worth of batteries and maybe $20 for a charger. but it would take forever to charge up all 11 batteries separately with only one charger, hehe.1000mAh would only last like 2-3 minutes, but if you only want to test it and have it on for a few seconds at a time maybe that ok?Current draw wouldn't be an issue, even the cheapest 1000mah are 20C so handle 20A, but id recommend 35C or more.Larger packs might get you 6000mah for $35 each so around $385 and last around 20minAnother way to do it, if you want to have it on continuously, might be a 2 stage Cockcroft Walton multiplier to double 120AC. It would be too much voltage when converted back to DC but can reduce the cap size to reduce the average energy to something it could handle. (I'm assuming the magnet can handle higher voltage if the average heating is still the same as 250V)https://www.extremeelectronics.co.uk/calculators/cw-voltage-calculator/If it was me, the cheapest option would be to find a cheap 110V to 220V step up transformer that can do 18A and remove enough turns from the secondary to produce an AC voltage that converts to 250DC.But pay attention to what CaptDon said about breaking the circuit, 18A at 250V into a magnet will produce a big arc that will blow apart any normal switch when you switch it off.And be warned, any high voltage is dangerous but DC is super dangerous, DC shocks will clamps your muscles so you can't let go.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 10:43:44 pm
content: And as mentioned by @CaptDon, how is the OP going to switch that monster off without destroying the switch with a gigantic arc? Some kind of voltage ramp-down circuit?I don't think even a heavy-duty relay would survive that back-EMF kick ...

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 10:50:29 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 08, 2025, 10:43:44 pmhttps://hubbellcdn.com/installationmanuals/ICD_4291Pub180_CATALOG.pdfhttps://www.ato.com/dc-reversing-contactors(not sure how these ones are implemented)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 10:53:53 pm
content: The electromagnet itself is an inductive load to a rectifier, so a filter capacitor is not required.If you have 240 V rms single phase available (typical line to line for US residence), and rectify it with a full-wave bridge, the mean DC voltage output is 0.9 x 240 = 216 V.Exact value for "0.9", neglecting diode drop, is 2 x 21/2/pi.As discussed above, you don't want to break the DC, and a 240 V Variac would be useful for ramping the voltage up and down: note that neither end of the Variac is at neutral for the center-tapped supply voltage.Each of the four diodes in that bridge theoretically requires 18 A peak or 9 A average, but should be rated well above that for safety.The PIV of each diode needs to be greater than roughly 400 V (again, go well above that value).Back in the day, "mercury plunger" contactors were used for dangerous DC switching, but they are no longer politically correct.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 10:54:08 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 08, 2025, 10:50:29 pmThey will only handle 48V, 250V is a way different beast.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 11:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 08, 2025, 10:43:44 pmSwitch the AC side!One problem I can see is the requirement for 20A.To my (not very close) knowledge, USA domestic power points are capable of 20A, so you could use one of the 240v outlets (120-0-120) available there, but rectifier losses & the possibility the initial current drawn from the AC supply may be high enough to knock out your fuses/breakers raise their ugly heads.3 phase would give you more margin, but introduces its own problems.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 11:40:42 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on September 08, 2025, 10:54:08 pmMaybe similar to:https://www.specialtyproducttechnologies.com/joslyn-clark/products/dc-contactors/5dp7-serieshttps://spectechind.com/Documents/hubbell5210catalog.pdf

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 11:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 08, 2025, 11:27:54 pmUS domestic power is capable of more than 20A, depending on the size of circuit breaker (and of course wire gauge) on a circuit. 25 or 30A circuits, for heating (stoves, heaters) are not uncommon. So maybe a dedicated 25A circuit, with a 2-pole breaker would be called for here.However, if the actual draw is 18A, then 20A should be sufficient, except for initial inrush current ...Oh, and your suggestion to switch the AC side: well, duh. Why didn't I think of that?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 11:53:51 pm
content: Just an observation:I love how if someone just mentions "floating their scope" with a 3-to-2 ac adapter then the forum collectively jumps down their throat with assurances that they will die a horrible death if they even think about doing it and to just drop it and never speak of it again!But then when someone says they are an "electrical rookie" and need 18A at 230V for a thing they got off ebay, there are some mild warnings and then crazy solutions posed.With that said, no one has mentioned measuring the resistance of the coil. I wonder if it was intended to just be rectified line operated.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 11:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on September 08, 2025, 11:53:51 pmWell, does that matter?If the thing is rated at 18A at that voltage, then it's safe to say that it can be driven directly from a rectifier from 240-ish volts AC, yes?Are you implying that one might need a transformer to run this? Don't see how that would be the case.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 12:21:41 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on September 08, 2025, 11:53:51 pmIts designed to run off of a 230V DC gas generator on a crane.https://www.baldor.com/brands/baldor-reliance/products/dc-motors/integral-hp-and-rpm-iii/lifting-magnet-motorshttps://hubbellpowersystems.cld.bz/EC-M-Crane-Control-Class-6815/2/#zoom=true

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 01:18:12 am
content: It probably only draw 18A when cold. Probably much less once all the copper wire has warmed up.Depending on the operating temp it could be as low as 14A at 80C. We dunno how hot it runs.(I'm obviously assuming the current rating will be the max current. If its operating current then starting current will be more than 18A)

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 01:33:44 am
content: No explanation yet as to the 360VAC 3Phase source. Is he speaking of the crane's generator? No replies from O.P.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 03:54:14 am
content: You can probably run this off rectified 120V mains, drawing half the current and with 1/4 the power, but it will still be an electromagnet. It depends what you want to do with it.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 03:55:36 am
content: Quote from: amyk on September 09, 2025, 03:54:14 amYes, this.Do this as a test before investing any more $$$ to see if the goddamn thing actually works.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 05:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on September 08, 2025, 11:53:51 pmThere are used electromagnets for sale including a rectifier and used not including a rectifier. Too bad I can’t seem to find those offerings at the moment.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 05:43:51 pm
content: Quote from: CaptDon on September 09, 2025, 01:33:44 amI dug up a formula that said that ~361VAC would be needed to produce ~230VDC. Which goes against literally everything I have more recently found.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 06:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 09, 2025, 12:21:41 amThe Baldor lifting magnet generator starts at $28,000 for 20kW. Ugh.I don’t know if the thing works. Could have melted/shorted parts inside of it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 06:06:11 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 08, 2025, 10:53:53 pmQuote from: Analog Kid on September 09, 2025, 03:55:36 amYes, do what the posters above are suggesting. Power it from rectified 120VAC first, to see if it works, then try 240VAC. Obviously connect the chassis of the magnet to earth/ground first, to protect against shock.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 06:30:41 pm
content: If you use it at lower voltage then the current is also lower. It doesn't have 2000lbs capacity but it still works.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 11:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: softdown on September 10, 2025, 05:43:51 pmWhere did you find that?Even a three-diode "3-phase half-wave" rectifier gives more than that DC into an inductive load.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 06:00:57 am
content: OK, I'm trying out embedded LaTeX for the first time, so bear with me if you would:Here are some formulae (I'm sure someone will call me out if I made any boo-boos here):$$V_{RMS}=\frac{V_{peak}}{\sqrt{2}}$$$$V_{peak}=V_{RMS}\times\sqrt{2}$$$$V_{DC}=\frac{2V_{peak}}{\pi}$$So let's say a guy wanted to hook up your monster magnet*to 240 volts AC:$$V_{peak}=240\times\sqrt{2}\approx340VAC$$$$V_{DC}=\frac{2V_{peak}}{\pi}\approx216VDC$$So you'd get about 216 volts DC (this with a full-wave rectifier, BTW). Which should be enough to see if it can do its stuff.*The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet is actually a Frank Zappa song (Mothers of Invention).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 07:14:30 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 08, 2025, 10:43:44 pmIntuitively, I’d use a SSR or a very beefy MOSFET to switch this thing. I assume one would also want a substantial flyback diode or snubber network. Is there anything I am overlooking?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 09:15:59 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 11, 2025, 07:14:30 amIf you're running it off rectified 240VAC, then if you switch the AC side, there's no need for an additional snubber because the bridge rectifier will act as a freewheel diode.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 09:41:20 am
content: hmmm these coilsare they like 10 20mH size ?because once you turn it onthen when turning offhow do they quench the back EMF ?on simulation they look really hugegiant spark gap ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 10:08:21 am
content: Quote from: Simmed on September 11, 2025, 09:41:20 amUse a back-EMF diode, just like a relay coil.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 10:25:18 am
content: So if a guy were to put together this circuitwhat would actually happen when that switch was flippedoff?Would you even need any kind of snubber?Would the bridge rectifier take care of any back EMF?

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 11:50:26 am
content: The bridge diodes would act as freewheel diodes. Since they are related to handle the full operating current continuously they are up to the task.The downside is that it will take a long time for the field to ramp down since the voltage is only 2 diode drops.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 12:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 11, 2025, 10:08:21 amah yes indeed, just like a relay coili forgot all about that

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 01:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 10, 2025, 06:30:41 pmIt weighs ~2000lbs. May pick up a 15,000lb slab.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 01:18:21 pm
content: I called this placehttps://www.genscoequip.com/used-scrap-demolition-equipmentThey would ask ~$7000 for a used 230VDC at 10amp rectifier. If they had one.I may serial a group of batteries to ascertain if it works. A big electromagnet is a great thing to have but currently doubtful that I want to spend more than a couple thousand.I have a telehandler that is pretty good at picking things up. If we can get the 1984 P&H crane operational that will change things. It has sat for ~15 years.

author: Uunoctium
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 02:38:41 pm
content: How about this? Sorensen 250VDC 40Ahttps://www.ebay.de/itm/116226392029?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 04:04:30 pm
content: To speed up the decay of the coil current you simply need a big resistor in series with the coil on the DC side of the bridge, bypassed by aDC ratedcontactor when AC is applied to the bridge rectifier.Use a three pole contactor for the AC to the bridge and put the third pole straight across the decay resistor.A suitable resistor would be a 4500W 240V water heating element, which should cost you around $30. That would give you a decay to release time comparable to the time the current takes to build up when power is applied.Edit: Using a pole of a three pole AC rated contactor to break a large DC current in a highly inductive circuit is unwise. It may arc over and fail.The water heating element needs to be in water (or rather engine coolant so it doesn't get funky) so it doesn't hot-spot and fail, but unless you are switching it very frequently it doesn't need much water so a length of pipe big enough to enclose the element, with a screw-in element mounted through the end cap should do nicely. Mount at an angle with the heating element connector at the high end, and have a small pipe Tee off at each end going up to a header tank and natural convection should provide enough circulation to keep the temperature fairly uniform.If you want to avoid the plumbing, a few 240V stove elements in parallel could also do the job and be air cooled, with a heavy mesh guard round them for safety, but they'll probably cost more than a single water heating element.Quote from: softdown on September 11, 2025, 01:18:21 pmThey gave you a 'Go forth and multiply' price.Bridge rectifiers capable of over 30A at over 250V aren't at all expensive. e.g look on Mouser and you'll find you can get a 35A 1000V rated single phase one (with a 400A surge rating), with lugs for bolted connections for under $5. Most of the cost will be heatsinking it well enough! At 20A the one I was looking at drops a little under 1V so there's only 20W of dissipation to deal with. As long as you aren't mounting it in an engine bay, or operating in Death Valley, just about any good sized heatsink will handle that easily. Salvage one from an old HiFi or maybe use an old CPU cooler! Do the job properly in an electrical box and I expect you'd have change from $200.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 06:30:21 pm
content: Why would you be concerned about a long decay time once the switch is opened? Who cares? The current will eventually drop to zero with no harm, no foul.I say build it as I diagrammed above. If you can, put a nice beefy (30A) circuit breaker in series so it'll pop that first before your house breaker. Use beefy (10 ga.) wire. Even if the thing is a dead short you should be OK. (You can determine that beforehand with a simple resistance check.)

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 06:46:48 pm
content: One reason to care is if you need to drop stuff quickly and evenly rather than have it twist and if loose scrap, scatter, as the heavier end or parts let go first. Of course a decay resistor costs money, so if you can live with the release characteristic without one, don't add one!

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 06:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 11, 2025, 06:30:21 pmImagine your fingers being trapped between this electromagnet and whatever it attracted.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 06:51:18 pm
content: Just to be clear here, what kind of decay time are we talking about here? Seconds? milliseconds?

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 06:59:03 pm
content: In the same order of magnitude it took it to get to full power.I don’t know the exact value. But I can make an educated guess: scrapyard electromagnets need seconds to turn on, and they have initial voltage exceeding the nominal “running” one to make it that quick. So seconds to half a minute sounds like a reasonable estimate to me.To clarify, I don’t oppose your idea. Just responding to why ejeffrey might’ve pointed to the long decay time as a downside.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 08:24:11 pm
content: Well, all I can say is that at this point we have no idea what the OP intends to use this for.My take is that buying the thing was kind of a lark for him, although "less than $500" ain't exactly chicken feed. (Maybe they're rich.)Didn't see anything about them wanting to use it in a scrapyard.If they did want to do that, then they might do well to find a portable power source which would have the necessary power and protections for the magnet.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 10:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 11, 2025, 08:24:11 pmSuch an item was quoted at ~$18,000 (used) yesterday. By the scrap outfit I mentioned yesterday. Includes 20kW diesel generator with rectifier.It was a lark. Love my toys and electromagnets have long been dear to my heart. Plus I got ahold of a 1984 P&H crane for a lot less than scrap value. We’ll see how project pans out.It did occur to me snatching rolled semis, and such, from the ditch could buy more than one sandwich. I’m in the Colorado mountains and close to a pass.I live a frugal off grid life and literally spend everything on 10-30 year old diesel powered machines. It's a hobby plus I play with a business called Bunyan Tree & Pasture. Service and clearing and some insurance covered storm related reconstruction.This place:https://www.genscoequip.com/used-scrap-demolition-equipmentwould likely ask over $5000 for the magnet. If it works.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 10:43:50 pm
content: Quote from: Uunoctium on September 11, 2025, 02:38:41 pmIch no sprechen zie Deutsch. Thats about half the German I know - lol.Didn’t see a language translator option.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 10:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: softdown on September 11, 2025, 10:43:50 pmWhen I went to that site, there was a (beta) translation option in the upper right-hand corner.However, it disappeared after a short interval.Which part of "250V 40A DC-Power Supply" did you not understand?

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 10:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on September 11, 2025, 04:04:30 pmIndeed it’s true:https://www.mouser.com/c/?q=rectifier%2040%20amp%201000V

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 10:54:45 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 11, 2025, 10:48:41 pm

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 11:32:41 pm
content: Why would you even think about shelling out 2,400€ (+) for a such a power supply?Just get a damn bridge rectifier, wire it up and try your magnet out.Should set you back a max of about $25 including switch, electrical box, plug and wire.Sheesh.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 11:39:16 pm
content: FWIW I may soon be unavailable for a couple days

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2025, 01:27:44 am
content: Quote from: golden_labels on September 11, 2025, 06:49:40 pmLooking at the size of this electromagnet, if "fingers being trapped" is even a problem, you would be well advised to not attempt to use it at all. It will easily crush you to death. This is heavy equipment, to be treated with plenty of respect and caution.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2025, 03:11:26 am
content: Quote from: golden_labels on September 11, 2025, 06:49:40 pmFinger's cant be trapped if already liquid and no longer considered a finger by any sense of the word.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2025, 04:02:39 am
content: As long as the rest of you is attached to the fingery part, it is a problem.My point was showing that safety is one of the reasons one may care about long decay time. Of course for practical use as something more than a toy, there is a simpler explanation andIan.M shared it. Huge electromagnets may be initially overdriven for the same reason: we want to grab things and grab them fast.(Before anybody tries to look smart again: yes, I’m aware this may not be OP’s concern. Still that remains a valid reason and ejeffrey is correct for mentioning that.)

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2025, 04:59:28 am
content: Quote from: softdown on September 08, 2025, 09:47:19 pmHi,You might want to think about this because it could be dangerous.This would require over 4000 watts to power, which is a lot of power. You would need that three phase system or hope you could get away with a 230vac 20 amp power mains.To turn the device off, you either have to do a controlled voltage decease or use a pulse, or a really well-designed snubber. I'd really hate to see what would happen without some kind of controlled turn off mechanism. Since you might get a lot of buzzing without filter caps, you may be able to use those as the snubber after you cut the input power. The input power will go away but the caps will still be connected to the coil. You'd have to figure out how much capacitance you need though.It would be interesting if you could measure the inductance of the coil but that might be hard to do. The capacitors would have to be rated for a higher voltage because once the coil turns off, the cap voltage would rise unless you did a controlled voltage ramp down.You'll also want to check for overheating while it is running.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2025, 09:55:13 pm
content: Substitute two of the diodes in the bridge rectifier for SCRs and drive them via a small transformer. The quenching resistor can go in series with the freewheeling diode.If the time constant of the magnet is in the tens of seconds, then there won't be any hum because it will filter it out. Well, perhaps there might be a little due to magnetostriction, but not enough to make the load vibrate.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2025, 02:33:28 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 11, 2025, 06:51:18 pmYou need to measure the inductance and the resistance. Then it's just proportional to L/R.These can easily be measured by had with a multimeter and a AA battery.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2025, 02:53:15 am
content: It's kind of hard to measure the inductance of a large inductor. That's because the BH curve varies a lot and at low currents it would show a lower inductance than at medium current, and at high current it could drop again too.Sometimes an AC current is used. It has to be enough to energize the coil enough to get a decent reading.A regular LCR meter would show an inductance that would be a lot lower than normal most likely. They use low current.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2025, 08:05:51 pm
content: 230vdc is basically single phase 240vac rectified without a capacitor in the circuit.3 phase is not appropriate here because you'll get much closer to 320vdc without the use of a capacitor (to push the voltage up to 338vdc from nominally 240v mains)it is also coincidentally about what is safe to run on a 20 amp circuit without blowing the breaker.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2025, 08:22:18 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 14, 2025, 08:05:51 pm216 VDC, close enough for gov't. work.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2025, 08:42:32 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 14, 2025, 08:22:18 pmyou forgot to subtract 2 volts for the diodes so its actually 214.(no offence, i just like responding to people in the spirit of everyone else on this forum)if we assume back in the 60's when this magnet was probably made, 230vac was mor normal, the 18 amps would be decreased to 16 amps and this would fit within the 80% limit for continuous duty on a 20 amp circuit.it would be interesting if anyone can find some history on the NEC electric code for continuous duty appliances being limited to 80% of a circuit's fused capacity.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2025, 06:40:57 pm
content: A LOT of ideas and options have been presented. Thanks to everybody who kindly participated. Abundantly clear that I need a rectifier. Which of these would be easy to hook up and seemingly a solid choice?https://www.mouser.com/c/?q=rectifier%2040%20amp%201000VActually it would possibly be my mechanic hooking it up. He has a lot more knowledge than I.I don’t care too much about the difference between $30 and, say, $40-$50.I have #2AWG for the DC negative side. 2/0 for the DC positive side. Already had those due to solar work. #10 will be adequate for the AC side.The existing positive magnet wire has an OD of ~.433 including the insulation. Pretty large. I prefer to go big on wiring.Still thinking I need something that acts as a switch. Almost assuredly on the AC side and close to the 240AC generator. Or 240 household power supply. Doesn’t seem to matter too much whether it is generator or grid power assuming an adequate generator.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2025, 07:16:39 pm
content: 1. None of those. Rather than buying 4 separate diodes, just get a bridge rectifier, likethis one.4 diodes in one package. Easier wiring. Cheaper. (This one's a little more than $5.)2. You don't need heavier wire on the DC side; you've got the same current going in and coming out. #10 should be fine, unless you have a long run where you don't want too much of a voltage drop due to resistance.Just use a regular household switch rated for 240VAC @ 20A.You don't need an electrician to wire this up. It's easy-peasy.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2025, 07:18:08 pm
content: You need a bridge rectifier, and unless you have a 240V three phase supply, you need a single phase one at that (i.e. four terminals). Tryhttps://mou.sr/4pjEeqNI relaxed your requirements slightly - >=35A @ >=800V should be adequate, and also added 'In Stock'. OTOH there appear to be some 50A 1000V ones available at nearly the same price e.g. GBPC5010L-BP so maybe go for them.They all bolt down with a single center bolt, typically M5 or 3/16" and you should use a flat washer against the rectifier and a wavy or Belville washer between the flat washer and the bolt head to maintain clamping force in spite of differential thermal expansion. Check datasheet for max. torque! They need a thin smear of heat transfer compound between the base and the heatsink. Use a ratchet crimper to crimp good quality Faston insulated female spade terminals onto your wires, which are then a push-fit on the bridge rectifier terminals. The insertion force is typically quite high and care must be taken *NOT* to bend the terminals sideways when fitting them or securing the wiring. A light smear of silicone dielectric grease on the male terminals aids fitting the female terminals and reduces the risk of corrosion causing the connection to increase in resistance.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2025, 08:25:10 pm
content: I would solder the wires to the terminals after crimping. But that's just me.(I just crimp them with a pair of dikes, carefully.)

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2025, 08:37:19 pm
content: Soldering a crimp makes a weak point where the wire strands exit the solder, so any bending or vibration tends to fatigue and break strands on the outside of the bend at the solder surface. Use proper tooling with matching contacts and your crimps will be stronger, lower resistance, and more reliable than a soldered connection or than if you add solder to a crimp.OTOH I would prefer an crimped and bolted connection, or even an all-soldered connection (with the wire hooked through a hole in the terminal lug and sleeved with adhesive lined heat shrink right over the terminal for strain relief), to Fastons but the terminals of the budget tagged bridge rectifiers aren't well suited to either with thick wires. You need to go considerably up-market to get bridges with integral screw terminal posts to take ring terminals.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2025, 11:02:02 pm
content: Analog Kid,to extend what Iam.M said above and give some “why.” I urge you to search information on proper crimping, see photos, see comparisons of good vs bad joints. I swear this will have a much more profound effect than any of us trying to convince you.A properly done crimped connection is not merely a bunch of wires trapped in a tight passage. It is actually welded and almost universally a solid block of metal impervious even to gasses. Soldering makes as much sense as “strengthening” a solid copper wire by dipping it in solder. If any effect is there, it’s creating an alloy weaker than the original copper.However,there is one more thing. This should not be taken as finding an excuse to accept poor practices. I implore anybody to learn, improve, and aim for the best. But we must face the reality. The reality is that most people are not going to spend money on an overpriced tool to use it 3 times a year. And donating much time to learning this and delaying another project is symptomatic of a perfectionist (in negative sense), taking away fun from what is meant to be a hobby. So perhaps a much better advice would be:If you’re unsure of your crimping, solder, but be fully aware of the shortcomings. It is not a good, reliable, long-term connection.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2025, 11:27:03 pm
content: I'm sorry we got off on what I think is an unnecessary tangent, at least from the OP's POV, as it just injects another fact of FUD (fear/uncertainty/doubt) into this already somewhat fraught project.But OK, I'll play along. I may not have quite as much experience as you when it comes to making crimped connections. But all the ones I've made over the years by my method above (crimping + soldering) have worked just fine. No loose connections here. (Of course, my connections have never ended up in a piece of vibrating heavy equipment.)I should point out that I usually use this method on solid wire, not stranded. I have made some stranded connections this way that are still quite intact.If the OP is concerned about vibration, they could just secure the wires going to the rectifier to the enclosure so they won't work loose.If this was some kind of milspec project then I'd endorse what you wrote above. For this case I think it's not really anything to worry about.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2025, 11:54:59 pm
content: OTOH Harbour Freight will sell you a ratcheting crimper for the common red/blue/yellow wire size color coded crimp terminals for as little as $20, and you can get a Klein Tools ratcheting crimper with interchangeable dies to do them + three other types of electrical terminal for $50, so there is little excuse *NOT* to use appropriate and accepted tooling and methods for electrical wiring, where a poor connection can be hazardous, doubly so for power to a lifting magnet!I've been using a similar tool to the $20 one bought from my country's equivalent chain of stores for a similar price, for nearly 20 years now. It doesn't get used every day or even every week, but when I dig it out I get consistently good results and its certainly paid for itself many times over.Its a different matter for small signal contacts, where getting the correct tooling can cost hundreds of dollars, even 'near enough' tooling will go for over $50, and every contact manufacturer seems to have their own preference for incompatible, non-interchangeable tooling. I also resort to 'nip and solder' for such contacts when I dont have the right tooling or even a close approximation.I must also confess to 'nip and soldering' 4/0 AWG terminals, but I was in a North African s--thole at the time and didn't have the trade contacts or the local language to get them professionally crimped. I *did* hack a punch and die set out of steel bar so I wasn't just waling on the lug barrel with a sledge hammer!

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2025, 05:18:20 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 15, 2025, 08:25:10 pmHi there,I worked in the power control industry and it was a given that crimped terminals were better than soldered terminals for a number of reasons. The wire gauges there went up to #4AWG at least, and it's very hard to solder that thick wire. There has to be a way to ensure that the solder penetrates all of the strands for one thing, and enough heat has to be applied which can often melt the insulation.Probably the main three issues are:1. A crimped terminal handles stress better especially at the solder/wire interface.2. A crimped terminal connection is more consistent over many crimps meaning there is an inherent reliability factor there, but ONLY when the proper crimp equipment is used. This helps a lot with quality control because we can be surer that it has been done right.3. A crimped terminal forces the wire and terminal to fuse together creating a connection that is lower in resistance than solder to wire resistance. This is when the proper crimp equipment is used, and it demands that actually. It is sometimes referred to as a cold weld.It always sounds strange at first because it seems that solder contacts every wire on every possible surface, but it's hard to get solder to penetrate into all the strands on some wire and if there is oxidation on the surface of the strands the solder can actually sit on top of the oxidation thus making poor contact.I am sure there is a better discussion of this on the web with a little searching around. That would probably point out all of the issues with soldering vs crimping.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 02:44:21 am
content: Yep.If you have thecorrectcrimping tool then crimping usually considered better. But the 'correct' tool is crazy expensive, usually $300-$800, or more and out of the range for a hobbyist.Cheap crimp tools can be used but the main issue is consistency. Sometimes the crimps come out bad but you did the same thing you did last time. It's this inconsistency and the inability to know you just did a bad crimp or not which makes crimping a bit risky if you don't have the right tool.If you don't have the correct crimping tool then you are often better soldering wire into the crimp to avoid the issue of bad crimps. However this does become a problem if the wire is huge and really does need to be crimped.If you are doing hobbyist stuff it really doesnt matter, if the crimp breaks you just redo it, it's only an issue if you are making and selling stuff because it creates returns/emails/problems if you get it wrong.But when you choose to solder a crimp there's one thing you must do. Pre-tin the wire and the crimp, and when you tin the wire make sure you keep an eye on how far down the wire the solder has wicked. A microscope helps a lot, You want to only get solder tinning like 20% of the way down the wire in the 'crimp hold' area. The rest will happen when you make the joint. Since both sides are tinned when you solder them together the joint happens very fast. So fast that the solder doesnt have much time to wick down the wire stands and into the area where the strain relief happens, which is good. If solder gets into the strain relief area the wire will snap off very fast from minimal flexing because you are flexing a rigid section and not stranded wire. Another approach is tinning only the crimp and dipping the wire in flux. But the goal here is to minimize the time required to make the joint to stop solder wicking down too far. You can do tests to get a feel for this.If you just try and solder without any tinning or flux it will take so long and get so hot and that as soon as solder starts to flow it will instantly flow way too far down the wire and into the strain relief area.There are entire threads about the crimp vs solder arguments, they both have advantages and disadvantages. It's a bit of a controversial topic like the whole AVR vs PIC thing.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 05:56:13 am
content: OP has an electromagnet.Not something that needs to handle 500 G forces of vibration on its way into space.I've had to wick flux and solder into quite a number of OEM crimps that failed after however many years, because it just isn't a gas tight connection as is often claimed, and corrosion starts to isolate each strand from each other, resulting in a high resistance connection.Much of my older equipment and all of the 1980's era military aircraft hardware i worked on was silver plated copper stranded wire wrapped around a binding post and soldered. those connections virtually never failed if the wire was tied off to something close enough to whatever it was soldered to.crimping was in my opinion, a time and labor saving venture by car companies. can't automate a soldering iron but you can automate a crimper.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 06:16:21 am
content: Thought of giving her the juice with a DC welder like the old Lincoln AC/DC tombstone welders?You could also pick up a petro powered welder for a power source.Controlling the output would require some work though tig welder pedal comes to mind.YMMV, some assembly required, batteries not include, please film and and shout "hold my beer and watch this".

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 06:18:45 am
content: Quote from: Cyclotron on September 17, 2025, 06:16:21 amThe OP doesn't need any of that stuff, which should have been made abundantly clear by now.All they need is a lousy $5 bridge rectifier and some wiring. Well, plus an electrical "handy box", power cord and switch.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 05:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 17, 2025, 05:56:13 amHi,I worked on military grade equipment that demanded crimps not solder.Even so, I have also ran into crimps that started to degrade. This does not prove that crimps are worse than solder, this just proves that SOME crimps don't work. That is because they MUST be done correctly and there is no way around that. The tool used has to be relatively high quality, and the operator has to have the proper training, and there is no way around that either.So the wiggle in the quality of the crimped joint lies in the quality of the tool and the training of the operator. It's not crimp vs solder, because crimp is always better when done right. We can however argue that since not all tools are of the best quality and not all operators are trained well enough that there could be problems with some crimps.The bottom line for the future then is that although a crimp is better, it had better be done right.Also, if a crimp is better in high vibration environments, imagine how good it would do in low vibration environments.Just to note, I've also smothered multistrand wire with solder and flux for my own purposes, and that was because I had no good crimper for larger diameter wires at the time. It was a real pain in the neck and took a lot of time to do. The joint seemed to come out pretty good though and lasted the life of the device.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 05:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: Cyclotron on September 17, 2025, 06:16:21 amJust fixed a 3300 watt generator that power a Lincoln welder offering 125 amps. The carb jet was plugged from old fuel. I believe that would be small though still a test for magnet viability.My mechanic uses a big welder though. Wonder why he didn’t think of that.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 05:54:15 pm
content: Mouser - Micro Commercial Components (MCC)Mfr. #: GBPC5010L-BPMouser #: 833-GBPC5010L-BPDesc.: Bridge Rectifiers 50A Glass Passivated Single Phase Bridge Rectif ...2 Ships Now$4.20$8.40That bridge rectifier part done. The plethora of ideas has been impressive. Thanks to all participants!

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 07:34:34 pm
content: Quote from: softdown on September 17, 2025, 05:38:08 pm1. You need 230 X 18 = 4,140 watts.2. Welders operate at low voltage, not 230 VDC.So we're all waiting here breathlessly; wire up that bridge rectifier and fire 'er up already!

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 08:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: softdown on September 17, 2025, 05:38:08 pmI call it "farmers mentality" you do what you can with with you have. I figured given your description of work that you must have a welder around. Unless you have a huge commercial one, its probably not a long term solution and obviously not the "right" one.But, sometimes you do what you can with what you have.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 09:24:35 pm
content: For completeness. I've simulated a big inductor with a series resistance connected to a rectifier powered from 240VAC. The current is very smooth, even though there's some voltage ripple.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 10:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: Cyclotron on September 17, 2025, 08:03:18 pmNot even close. Sheesh.Welders don't even give you 100 volts, let alone 230.

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 10:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 17, 2025, 07:34:34 pmIf you knew how many big projects I am up to my elbows in...

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2025, 10:54:02 pm
content: Quote from: softdown on September 17, 2025, 10:48:15 pmOK (grumble, grumble), we'll wait.Making up a big batch of popcorn in the meantime

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2025, 02:23:25 am
content: Quote from: softdown on September 17, 2025, 10:48:15 pmsoftdown, just ignore that guy.The electromagnet should operate up to 230v/18amp that doesn't mean it won't work at all at lower voltages and amps. It's just an electromagnet. I've build several and used random power supplies to power them.While I was mostly posting in jest, note the "hold my beer and watch this" comment, it may provide you some feedback on the magnet's ability to function. It just depends on you having access to a DC machine which it sounds like you might.Good luck.C

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2025, 02:40:37 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 11, 2025, 07:14:30 amNot overlooking precisely, but I'd think a flyback diode would protect a switch just as well as a MOSFET. I wonder how many joules of energy are stored in that magnet and how long it would take to dissipate it with just one diode drop.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2025, 03:21:59 am
content: An arc welding supply is usually a constant current source, with a compliance voltage around 30V. Since your electromagnet was designed for much higher voltage, if you connect a welder to it, it will likely reach compliance voltage and draw (relatively) little current; it will not operate at full power but will still be magnetic.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2025, 03:25:24 am
content: Quote from: amyk on September 18, 2025, 03:21:59 amYes, I agree. Of course, if the magnet has any defects, you're going to get a bit more excitement.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2025, 07:02:45 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 18, 2025, 02:40:37 amMy spreadsheet calculates this and for a 10 pound iron core with about 2 to 5mm total air gap its about 1 joule of energy stored for 200 watts of copper losses at 1.7T flux density. Maybe you can reduce that to 50 watts with an ideal tape wound pot core.A 1800 pound electromagnet wont be any better. 4000 watts losses can probably lift a few tons of scrap. But as for the energy stored in the magnet? I would say a standard bridge rectifier (2 volts drop which is 1/100 the voltage drop across the coil, the load lets go within a tenth of a second.The current passes harmlessly through the rectifier, and the energy is lost to resistance..

author: softdown
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2025, 01:11:34 am
content: Mouser got the bridge rectifier to me very fast. Seems a fine company in my experiences. But. But the radiator blew up in the dump truck last week and is still away from home. The hydraulics in the Kubota 95 skid steer still will not engage after hauling it around for a couple days. The main belt on the Silverado jumped shark yesterday after a pulley fell out. Also started leaking fluids. The pasture clearing machine fuel level sender and gauge gave us more problems than normally imaginable. The replacement light project is less than half done. A Macbook went out. The refurbished replacement didn't hardly work even after a repair shop dabbled with it. The magnet is a 5 hours away until it works. Or doesn't work.So much progress has been made thanks to the crew here! Kind of have my hands full for a bit it seems.18 amps at 230VDC? Seems #12awg would be adequate to test its viability. Unsure why the positive wire in the magnet has an OD of .433".

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2025, 12:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: softdown on September 23, 2025, 01:11:34 amDepends how far away you want the magnet to be from the powersupply when you flip it on9awg is the official value for power transmission of 18A.12awg is probably fine though, you'll lose 0.1V per meter (0.2V including ground wire).So that isn't a problem if you have 250V

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2025, 12:53:38 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on September 08, 2025, 10:08:13 pm... or send you flying as I found out when I probed under the little sucker on a 14" monitor (A fully charged 450V cap). My legs extended rapidly, like a frog in a lab. I felt hitting the wall and sliding down it into a heap on the floor. Took a few seconds to work out what had happened. No injury but I was weak and shaking for hours.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2025, 02:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on September 08, 2025, 10:08:13 pmYes, treat hazardous volages with caution, but that's a myth. Mains frequency AC is more dangerous than DC, given the same current. A lot of nasty experiments demonstrated this over a hundred years ago.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2025, 05:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 23, 2025, 02:07:39 pmI can attest to that, having experienced a 277 VAC (commercial lighting) shock which just about knocked me off my ladder.Don't ask; not one of my smartest days.Based on his experience, I trust the OP to be careful, so maybe we can quit with the cautionary notes here.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2025, 09:52:33 am
content: Hi,AC is just like a changing DC, and unfortunately when AC goes through zero it does not stay there long enough to allow the human response to relax.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2025, 03:17:22 pm
content: At this voltage both DC mains frequency AC are extremely dangerous.However, for the same voltage level short-term DC exposure poses less risk. Mind that AC is not pulsing, butalternating. During a shock the victim experiences both polarities, which is where the distinction comes from.Ventricular fibrillation doesn’t happen in DC. Heart muscle may contract and even stop, but stays in that relatively stable state.For DC only resistive component of body impedance matters. With AC the capacitive part reduces impedance.Muscles stay contracted. But with humans being controlled by pulsed signals, under DC muscles are not retriggered. There is a notable difference between fighting a diminishing mechanical force, and having the control circuitry completely compromised while that mechanical force is constantly re-applied with maximum strength.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2025, 04:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 17, 2025, 05:56:13 amThen you're simply misinformed.Crimping does save time, but it has real advantages. Solderless connections are actually used even more as cars evolve -- they now often use solderless connectors on PCBs (press-fit) because they're more reliable than soldered connectors. (Press-in connectors costmorethan soldered ones, especially when the required tight-tolerance PCBs are considered. So it's not a cost-saving measure.)Quote from: johansen on September 17, 2025, 05:56:13 amThen you're simply misinformed.You very much can automate a soldering iron. Robotic soldering is very much a thing. From semi-automatic (where a human loads some of the components or wires) to fully automatic, it all exists.Pro tip for life: "I have never seen " ≠ " does not exist"/" is impossible".

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2025, 06:17:21 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 24, 2025, 04:45:13 pmIndeed, in my mentoring of a FIRST Robotics team we were able to see what NASA and the automotive industry already know. Properly crimped and installed connections are resilient to vibration, have less corrosion issues, and are more weather resistant. It is also very easy to develop the needed repeatable skills for making the crimps with hand tools.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 08:14:33 am
content: Here is the thing. If you are pro or con crimping vs soldered, here is something to think about...Would you rather go to the moon in a vehicle that had all the connections done with crimping or with soldered terminals?Would you rather go thousands of feet deep into the ocean in a vehicle that had all the connections done with crimping or with soldered terminals?Remember your life is at stake now.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 08:58:21 am
content: Quote from: MrAl on September 25, 2025, 08:14:33 amDepends, how much did the used crimping tool cost, was it the official tool from the manufacturer, and did a second person confirm the right tool was used and the right size awg crimp was used for the wire size, and was each crimp microscope inspected/xrayed to confirm correct folding.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 11:08:58 am
content: I'd prefer the path ways are analysed to be duplicative or triplicative in redundancies across the entire matrix.That is what Nasa do.On what way they made connection for Apollo, Shuttle and current tech, I'm not sure. From watching CuriousMarc's Apollo electronics revival/restoration videos it looks like a range of techniques, depending on where.Crimps. Plain older solder. Welded (not soldered). Wire wrap. 99% of electronics where hemetically sealed/potted. A lesson learn during gemini was that all these automated electronics where absolutely fine until they stuck a sweaty, water breathing astronaut in there and put it through a series of temp cycles.Granted in Apollo days basic PCBs where quite new. A lot of it used older tech like wirewrap or that weird vertical mounting between 2 boards thing. A startling realisation from that tech is that "Surface mount tech" proceeds even what we would call "PCB" today.The challenges are temperature, humidity, cold, ice, but a massive one is vibration. Riding a rocket is a rather bumpy affair.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 06:32:24 pm
content: Dang. For the OP's purposes (for simplytestingthe damn thing for sure), any of the above will work:crimp, solder, crimp + solder (the latter my preference).Stop trying to gild the lily here, for chrissakes.The OP didn't ask for a bulletproof milspec solution.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 07:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 25, 2025, 06:32:24 pmThe quotation is "To gild refined gold, to paint the lily" from ShakespeareKing JohnAct IV, Scene 2.If you look at each verb and object, this version makes more sense than the later misquotations.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 08:14:05 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 25, 2025, 07:27:16 pmOmigod, Tim.You dinged me here, so don't be surprised that I'm dinging you right back.So you have encyclopedic knowledge of all this stuff: goody for you.Are you actually suggesting that we should carefully check our references every time we use awell-known and often used metaphor(like "gild the lily")? Really?Have you no knowledge of what's called "colloquialisms"? Which are often inaccurate, misattributed, misquoted, mish-mashed and otherwise mangled, seeing that we hue-mons are not automatons or computers that always accurately come up with a proper, grammatically-correct statement?In short, do you have some kind of stick up your ass that compels you to correct everyone here on every little thing?Yes, I realize that I sometimes find myself correcting spelling or misusage errors here on people's posts. But I try to take care not to do it in the manner of some scolding schoolmarm. I do it without editorializing.If you think you're somehow being faintly ironic or even funny by posting that crap, you're not, buddy.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 08:43:36 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 25, 2025, 08:14:05 pmFriendly advice: do not take offense when none is given!However, you gave offense here and I take it.I merely pointed out the original version of that statement, and thatit makes more sensethan the later misquotation thereof.Mycareful statement of factdid not criticize you for using the common version; not everything is about you.My statement: "The quotation is 'To gild refined gold, to paint the lily' from ShakespeareKing JohnAct IV, Scene 2.' is not a personal insult.Your statement: "do you have some kind of stick up your ass that compels you to correct everyone" can be construed as a personal insult.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 25, 2025, 08:43:36 pmI found AK's response to you amusing. I've learned not to take him too seriously. A bit like someone else, who I won't mention, because it'll cause trouble.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:28:56 pm
content: He who must be taken seriously, but not literally?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 10:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 25, 2025, 09:28:56 pmWhat, do you take everything you read here literally? I sure don't. That's part of the point I was trying to make; "gilding the lily" is in no way a literal phrase.Look; if I had misused a phrase, like, say I had written "we shouldhone in onx" (which should be "homein on", which is an all-too-common error that bugs me), I wouldn't have minded if you corrected it; you'd be well within your rights.I'll accept that you meant no offense by your comment, but that's not clear at all in that post. You seem to have some Asperger's-ish thing going on there where you don't get the tone of what you post; you seem to revel in your voluminous knowledge, which not all of us hue-mons take kindly to. It's just the way we are.Anyhow, this is getting stupid now, so let's just drop it, OK?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 10:07:10 pm
content: My reply to Zero999 did not refer to you, but to "someone else".

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 10:16:45 pm
content: OK.So when are we going to hear back from the OP? I hope they're able to finish all their other projects because the popcorn is getting cold!

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 02:02:57 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 25, 2025, 09:28:56 pmSecrete squirrel. Is it a "he"? I mean is that the pronouns claimed? I get caught up in the the minutia due to being autistic but I blame my mother for taking acetaminophen while pregnant with me.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2025, 08:02:42 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 25, 2025, 08:14:05 pmHi,The phrase you used is interesting in itself. We as humans tend to shorten things and with time they become identical to the longer versions."Don't gild the lily", I think is such a case; the modern version of the original full text. I doubt you are the first to use that wording. It's a shorter way to say not to embellish something that is already complete, or that it is not necessary to do that. I think it happens to be a more direct way of saying it.It is a little interesting to read about the background too though to see where it originated, but I would think it is not 'wrong' to say it that way.Probably also "Don't paint the lily" would be acceptable but maybe not as clear. These days we paint a lot more than gild, but it usually still embellishes to some extent.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2025, 08:41:50 am
content: Quote from: MrAl on September 27, 2025, 08:02:42 amOf course I'm not; are you kidding? It's a very well known phrase. Haven't you heard it before?Almost nobody knows about the Shakespeare version that Tim posted. I certainly didn't.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2025, 08:11:40 pm
content: Quote from: MrAl on September 25, 2025, 08:14:33 amAssuming they were assembled competently (i.e. all done to spec using the correct tooling and procedures), crimped.Of course, either method is reliable if done to spec using the correct tooling and procedures. But soldered connections for those high-reliability applications require more work to plan, more work to build, etc. because of the need to provide better vibration protection.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2025, 08:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on September 25, 2025, 06:32:24 pmWell from your own description…Quote from: Analog Kid on September 15, 2025, 08:25:10 pm… you’re not really crimping, you’re just smushing on a connector to retain it a bit, but it’s really a soldered connection.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2025, 08:36:34 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 05, 2025, 08:17:12 pmI'll accept that technical description: "smushed & soldered". Has a nice ring to it.Point is, these connections have always worked just fine for me.Disclaimer:None of my connections are used on heavy-duty construction equipment, diesel-powered rigs or other high-vibration units. They have withstood flexing over the years and still work well.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2025, 08:56:13 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on October 05, 2025, 08:36:34 pmHonestly, I think a lot of the criticism (not all, but a lot) is from people who have been smushing, not crimping-for-real*. And in that situation, adding solder can really help. But only because it was never a good crimp to begin with. (Whereas I absolutely stand by the position that agoodcrimp is never improved by the addition of solder, only worsened.)So maybe we should try to get the term “smushed” to catch on, to contrast with crimps made with proper tooling.*I know, it sounds like the “true Scotsman” fallacy, but there really are huge differences between a smush and a crimp.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2025, 09:23:39 pm
content: I dunno; you crimp advocates may be right, but it's hard for me to imagine that such a mechanically-squozen connection could 1) be better than "smushed + soldered" and 2) actually be degraded by soldering.Crimping two things together simply deforms one against the other, or deforms both against each other, correct?Now someone here mentioned that this actually kind of welds the two things together, but I have a hard time believing that this is anything like a real weld (you know, with heat and all), where the two things actually get melted into each other.And if the "smush" is well-embedded in solder, wouldn't that provide a superior mechanical as well as electrical connection, since the two things are completely surrounded by once-molten metal (well, at least that's what's hoped for)?I'll leave off here, as this is veering into expert territory where I'm unqualified to comment further.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2025, 10:08:48 pm
content: I’m going to interrupt you, folks!Softdown, don’t feel guilty for ignoring the half of this thread hijacked for the crimping discussion. I totally agree with the message and you should be aware of the differences, butfor your projectthis will be of very little importance.If you can do good crimps, prefer them over solder joints for cable connectors? Yes.Worry about either solution failing in a project you intend to be something more than a toy? Yes.Spend time worrying you did something wrong for this small project, because half of the thread discusses it? No.After making your first dozen crimps, lie to yourself that they excel over soldered connections? No.