Should buy R&S RTM3K-54PK or Siglent SDS6034 H10 Pro(X)SDS6054A(O)? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 03:52:32 am
content: I am think to buy R&S RTM3K-54PK or Siglent SDS6034 H10 Pro hope can get some suggestion....(70% hobby use 30% job use)Price:RTM3K-54PK Full Package € 7,860(May be need € 200 shipping)SDS6034 H10 Pro RMB 48880~~ € 6,795SDS6054A € 6,480<-WinSiglent cheap about €1400Sample rate:RTM3K-54PK 500MHz <-WinSDS6034 H10 Pro 350MHzSDS6054A 500MHz<-WinI haven't seen SDS6000 pro had BW and bit hack?6000A had 2G hack?Memory:RTM3K-54PK 80MSDS6034 H10 Pro 500M<-WinSDS6054A 500M<-WinOther:RTM3K-54PK Come with SG and logic probe <-WinSDS6034 H10 Pro Need but signal gen and DIY logic probeSDS6054A Had 2G hack?If SDS 6000 pro can be hack of course buying Siglent ...but if it can't does RTM3K-54PK is a good chose?(Why R&S can't be hack)(R&S measure result more reliable?)Or should waiting MXO4 had a pomo?(Option is important than BW....)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 11:23:15 am
content: If you are going to do protocol decoding then go for the R&S for sure. Protocol decoding on the RTM3004 is a real joy to use.Either way, it is best to just try both scopes so you can compare by yourself. If you buy a car, you take it for a test drive. The same goes for test equipment in this price range. Just make sure to prepare some test scenarios that are representative for the work you do. Otherwise you'd be twiddling some knobs and still not get a feel for which instrument is most useful to you.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 01:17:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 02, 2022, 11:23:15 amI actually made a short video showing basic setup and decode of UART on the RTM

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 04:43:21 pm
content: There is one thing you don't show in your video and that is the automatic rotation of the text inside the balloons holding the data. It will rotate if the bus decode trace is high enough. This allows to get much more information on the screen and makes it easier to get a good overview of what is going on. Needless to say I like that feature a lot. I'm not aware other oscilloscopes do this.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 07:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: Minki on November 02, 2022, 03:52:32 amWelcome to the forum.FYI H10 Pro models are not available to the west.Instead SDS6000A models are which provide 5 GSa/s (10 GSa/s ESR) per channel and 500 MPts memory with models of 500MHz, 1 or 2 GHz.To answer you other question, our SDS6204A now magically has all options permanently installed.However FYI, SDS5000X is under promotion (as some other models are too) with free option bundles and BW upgrades that amount to considerable savings.Memory depth, while not the immense 500 Mpts is still a healthy 250 Mpts.Promo details:https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-62.html

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 01:47:38 am
content: thank you guysQuote from: nctnico on November 02, 2022, 11:23:15 amYou got the point....but i can't test using both scope...only rely on the youtuber test...So that me struggle on buying which on since it very expensive for meQuote from: pdenisowski on November 02, 2022, 01:17:04 pmLook great but will RTM add more decode in future?Like the NFC and USB 2.0/USB PD?And will MXO4 had pomo with all option...?I see MXO44-242 cost € 7,600 with no option.... If the price is near is good choose 200Mhz MXO4 but not RTM 500MHz(If both had all option?)Quote from: tautech on November 02, 2022, 07:15:35 pmThank 's ^^ this is my first topic....>FYI H10 Pro models are not available to the west.I know that and i had the channel to get that(Keep looking the RMB exchange rate decline)But since the H10 Pro models are not available to the west....the are no information tell the different between X and H10 Pro...Only know H10 Pro had lower datasheet noise floor than the RTM.... and 8M FFTSince seeing some discussion in there seem 10bit ADC is important?...So i look for the H10 Pro model.....

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 11:09:50 am
content: Quote from: Minki on November 03, 2022, 01:47:38 amWe do support some USB decodes on our higher-end scopes, but we haven't announced any plans to support this on the RTM.Quote from: Minki on November 03, 2022, 01:47:38 amThere have been similar promotions on other scopes in the past, but we don't currently have an "all options" promo for the MXO4.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 11:16:42 am
content: Quote from: Minki on November 03, 2022, 01:47:38 amI would assume you'd be able to get a loan unit from an R&S dealer in Japan... Unfortunately many Youtube reviews are rather shallow so I really recommend getting test units before committing to buy. I have regretted not doing that in the past; it ended up costing me several k euro because the equipment dealer didn't want to take it back while the unit clearly wasn't delivering what was promised.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 11:25:04 am
content: Quote from: Minki on November 03, 2022, 01:47:38 amAFAIK SDS6034 H10 Pro 350MHz is based on platform that goes up to 1 GHz, with 2 ADC and different memory architecture.Worldwide SDS6000A are all 2GHz platform, common with domestic 2GHz SDS6206H8/10/12 PRO, with 4 ADC converters.Only that platform has support for Jitter/eye.So if you want to "reach" 2GHz, and have jitter/eye option you either have to buy any world release SDS6000A (8bit), or full 2GHz chinese version.Software wise (except eye/jitter)everything else is the same, FFT length and all.

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 02:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 03, 2022, 11:16:42 am:-\I don't think that they will loan a unit for a hobbyist............Quote from: 2N3055 on November 03, 2022, 11:25:04 amMay be the new problem now is does the 10bit ADC is important......?I see many post talk about ENOB....and two tone FFT..... So the RTM 10Bit really greater(useful?) than SDS6000 8bit...?And any one can tell the SDS6000A UI speed?I am using RIGOL DS2102A.....very slowand it only 2ch that i look to buy a 4CH scope.....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 02:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: Minki on November 04, 2022, 02:44:16 pmI don't see why a dealer wouldn't do that for somebody who is seriously considering to buy a piece of equipment.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 02:00:17 am
content: Quote from: Minki on November 04, 2022, 02:44:16 pmIt's no different to any on the newer Siglent models, SDS2kX Plus, 5kX or 2kX HD.Ever since Siglent has switched to Xilinx, starting with the SDS1202X-E some years back they have been more responsive.https://www.xilinx.com/content/dam/xilinx/publications/powered-by-xilinx/siglent-case-study.pdf

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 02:21:08 am
content: The reality is that those Xilinx FPGAs have slow CPUs by today's standards and no GPU for graphics accelleration. In that respect the platform is pretty outdated. The new Rigol HD scope -for example- has a Rockchip CPU which does have a GPU to accellerate graphics and thus can deliver faster drawing of screen objects.

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 03:36:19 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 05, 2022, 02:00:17 amQuote from: nctnico on November 05, 2022, 02:21:08 amAs i know the FPGA is using for control the sample and math calculate only but not drawing the UI...?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 11:32:21 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2022, 02:21:08 amWhat are you talking about?You really think SDS6000A has same architecture as SDS1000X-E?LOL.It has separate application processor with GPU and DSP acc...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 03:39:38 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 05, 2022, 11:32:21 amWhat Tautech pointed to ofcourse...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 03:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2022, 03:39:38 pmThat was simple time frame reference i guess..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 04:35:23 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 05, 2022, 03:53:12 pmI see now that Xilinx has updated the document; previously that case study showed the Xilinx Zync FPGAs with internal ARM cores. So basically Xilinx is telling you the same as I was writing: Zync is outdated.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 04:53:09 pm
content: Quote from: Minki on November 04, 2022, 02:44:16 pmLet me just chime in a few words about SDS6000A. It is a fast scope with large touch screen. It is also very nice to use. If you get SDS6000A you can upgrade it all the way to 2 GHz. It is 8bit but has low noise front end and noise wise will perfom on par with R&S. How important 10 bit resolution is? Well it is not so much difference, from 8 bit to 12 bit it is visible difference. It depends if you are doing stuff where you want to squeeze every little bit. In general work god 8 bit ADC and good front end does the job, and in Siglent SDS6000A both are world class.I have SDS6000H12 Pro, and use it daily and love it.Visual design of R&S scope might be a bit more designed for a aesthetically applesque type of appearance, but Siglent GUI is logical, modern and does the job.Scope supports lots of stuff not being mentioned often: mapping of network drives, excellent remote control over browser (both great for documentation), 2 custom probes presets per channel, arbitratry math in 4 math channels (you type a complex mathematical expression and that is the channel). It supports eye/jitter package (RTM3K does not), comprehensive power analysis package, excellent FRA (Bode plot) analysis. It has 2 zone triggers, many advanced trigger options, many measurements, track and trend plotting, histogram analisys and histicons that are always running histograms on all measurements (I love this one, it's fantastic)...It is a very advanced mid range scope worth every cent.It is also a part of growing family of new touchscreen Siglent scopes that are their strategic platform. That means active maintenance and development.I personally thing that RTM3000 (while very nice scope) is no match to SDS6000 in its versatility. New R&S MXO4 might be, I don't know, haven't try it yet.But I'm confused as to what exactly would you do with the scope? Is 2GHz really necessary?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 05:03:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2022, 04:35:23 pmAre you trying to get me in argument or what? What do I care for Zinq?I told you SDS6000 has advanced architecture that uses no Zynq and has a separate application processor that has not only advanced ARM cores, but DSP slices, graphics accelerators and more... And it uses Kintex Ultrascale.OP asked if SDS6000A is slow. In course of answers you pointed out that Siglent architecture is slow and that new Rigol is faster, based on false info what is inside SDS6000 would be same as old SDS1000X-E .. So I responded.Naturally Rigol brand new 4000€ scope has faster processor that 450€ Siglent that is now 5 years old.But SDS6000 has very different, very fast architecture with ultra powerful Kintex FPGA and separate application processor. SDS6000 is very fast.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 09:55:48 pm
content: QuoteStill 8 bit has it´s place, even on expensive scopes(except the WS of course).

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 10:05:39 pm
content: QuoteTaking this as a example, it would be nice when siglent would publish it in the datasheets like other brands do.

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 01:58:57 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 05, 2022, 04:53:09 pmDear 2N3055 after i am seen the Rudi’s Electronics Lab comparison ..can you share SDS6000A is still:1.No math in Roll mode?2.Any channel XY display3.Non-ASCII char display in decode screen4.decode not support 9bit RS-4855.No error remind in protocol decoding6.Slow Bode plots(Need 3min?)Thank You(May be go to SDS6000A....because it real cheap than RTM so much...)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 04:45:35 pm
content: Quote from: Minki on November 06, 2022, 01:58:57 pm1. NO Math in roll mode. Keysight MSOX3104T doesn't have it either. And implementing math in roll mode would be of limited use. There are number of things that cannot work in that mode.2. X-Y is on ch1-2. Same as Keysight MSOX3104T.3. Non-ASCII char display in decode screen. I don't understand: do you mean as different encoding like UNICODE?4. No there is no support for RS-485 9-bit data framing address mode at this time...5. There are error markers in decode. Every manufacturer decides to what depth error tagging goes and how representation is. There are also differences between protocols. Need more info to be able to resond.6. Bode plots take time depending on algorithm and settings used. I can make Keysight FRA take reallyyyy long time if I max out all the settings..more than 10 minutes.. Siglent FRA will have better dynamic range, more channels (really unique feature), wider frequency range, etc... It will be a little slower than some others but that is because it does more averaging and extracts better results..

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 12:58:13 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 06, 2022, 04:45:35 pmAbout item 3 and 5 like that.https://youtu.be/5MofTw7N2t8?t=1718Thank 's

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 01:18:56 am
content: Quote from: Minki on November 07, 2022, 12:58:13 amRudi still learns how to drive SDS2000X Plus.SDS6000A has many more features that make it different to operate and get different results from the Plus versions.Not a fair or accurate comparison.

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 01:28:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 07, 2022, 01:18:56 am:'(Just i say before i can't loan a unit for both supplier so that i only can rely on the youtuber test...And some one(?) tell me the operation logic is same on SDS2000X and 6000A so that is want to confirm those problem...And i want to ask that does Siglent official support the hobbyist purchase...?Will like keysight if buy in personal will no any services...?Thank 's

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 01:45:12 am
content: Quote from: Minki on November 07, 2022, 01:28:39 amPlease understand 6000A looks and operates similar to 2000X Plus but the Decode List length is the same for both models however when the scope is used correctly to display many packets of bus data the list while only 7 lines high can contain many 100 of packets to be scrolled through.Rudi did not show this as he fails to understand WYSIWYG and does not use the DSO to best effect.SDS6000A can be identical or very different, as also can SDS2000X HD or SDS5000X due to the new memory management features that the much cheaper (now on special SDS2104X+ for $999) does not have.My SDS6204X Plus is packed to go to Defpom for review but maybe I can take some quick screenshots to show the decode choices, Hex, ASCI etc.

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 02:12:47 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 07, 2022, 01:45:12 amThank you...but wait 6000X plus....?....what is the different of 6000A/6000X(plus?)/6000 Pro....?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 02:54:26 am
content: Quote from: Minki on November 07, 2022, 02:12:47 amSorry, SDS6204A.Here's a quick snap of the 4 different decode outputs, Binary, Decimal. Hex and ASCI.Now it's out on the bench do you wanna see some decodes ? I only have the Siglent STB3 test board with I2C, CAN, UART, SPI and LIN.

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 03:10:55 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 07, 2022, 02:54:26 amOf course want to seePlease also test :1.will LIN display error when suddenly pull out the board?2.Really not support 9bit RS485?Thank's

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 03:19:58 am
content: Quote from: Minki on November 07, 2022, 03:10:55 am1. The decode list will vanish unless it is captured with Stop or some Single Trigger setting.2. Don't know, haven't looked only seen what 2N3055 wrote. We may have slightly different FW between Pro and A models, IDK.Will put something up in a few hours.......other things to do.

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 03:40:31 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 07, 2022, 03:19:58 amLike LIN had checksum...will 6000A display/notify if the checksum error....?Or some case is mcu hang up during send out 8bit UART,I2C.....the send not finish..will 6000A display/notify there had a error...?Many Thank's

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 06:16:59 am
content: Some I2C for your study.H Position left at 0s whereas we might instead position it left for decoding where we can also lock it for it to be not influenced by timebase settings.Nothing stopped, everything captured on the fly with only a simple Edge trigger plus some Holdoff to prevent retriggering within a packet.One capture, #5 showing the List with 100 packets decoded which we can view anywhere in the list with the scrollwheel on the wireless mouse Siglent provide with these scopes.You want some UART and LIN next ?

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 07:01:12 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 07, 2022, 06:16:59 amYes please

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 08:04:24 am
content: Right then.....that was fun as internal storage saved the day !I knew it was available and had briefly played with it so when a USB drive/stick looks like it's inserted but isn't screenshots get sent to internal memory and with the File Manager it's a very simple matter to Copy/Paste them to a USB stick later.A couple of shots with settings purposely incorrect to show what errors look like.UART followed with some LIN

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 08:43:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 07, 2022, 08:04:24 amThank's tautech seem 6000A had the error detection....

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 09:00:35 am
content: There are other tricks we could use to decode packets well off the display but not tonight as bed calls.SDS2000X HD can do this stuff too as can SDS5000X, both of which are on promotion until years end.They both use two ADC's and 1 GSa/s and 2.5 GSa/s are their all channels active sampling rates whereas SDS6000A has four 5 GSa/s ADC's therefore suffers no penalty when all channels are active.I have owned SDS5000X for a few years but recently sold it when SDS6000A arrived however now on special promotion and now with memory management features you should seriously consider the SDS5000X unless the larger screen, higher sampling and deeper memory are preferred.Tomorrow I visit Defpom and he can have a play with SDS6000A for a week or two....he already owns SDS2000X Plus that he won in a Siglent competition. I think he will do well with demonstrating its advanced features his X Plus does not have.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 04:53:36 pm
content: I wish the design of the decoders will be someday polished in a lecroy way and not looking always "rudimentary"...

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 02:19:59 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 07, 2022, 04:53:36 pmMay be the reason is Siglent no UI designer..............

author: Minki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 01:45:29 am
content: Well....may go for SDS6054A.....because the price of RTM3K-54PK can buy SDS6054A+SDG6022X ....But still thinking.....because it very expensive for me....