Could this electric shower be lethal? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 05:40:46 pm
content: Hi,In this video, a Chinese shower is examined which is literally no more than a bare conductor across the live mains with water flowing over it, and then this water stream goes on to the shower user…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiErqUkw690&feature=youtu.beFrom 7:20 to 9:07, the investigator even disconnects the earth from the shower, and also connects himself to earth but still is not shocked badly when under this shower.The following video is a pre-cursor to the above video….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo99U3nVCnA&feature=youtu.beDo you think that if the water had been more “salty” (more conductive), and also if the soil of the earth at his house had been more conductive , then there is a good chance that he could have tragically died doing the experiment shown above (from 7:20 onwards)

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 05:45:23 pm
content: This kind of heated shower head is quite common in many parts of the world. I have not heard of any wholesale electrocutions happening as a result of the use of these units...

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 05:52:33 pm
content: They might be common throughout the world but so is syphilis. I would rather take a cold shower than use one of those things.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 21, 2019, 05:40:46 pmWhere do you get it is a "bare conductor across the live mains with water flowing over it"?I believe that is literally wrong.I believe it has a heating element similar to those used in electric heating tanks. The electric heating element is isolated from the exterioir tube which is grounded.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:07:08 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on October 21, 2019, 05:52:33 pmAnd even more common than both of those put together is ignorance.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2019, 06:06:04 pmTry watching the video. At about 14:50 he opens the main water chamber of the device, and you can see the bare resistive heating wire.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2019, 06:06:04 pmThis is all already documented (youtube videos etc) in treez's other thread. I don't see any point in re-hashing exactly the same stuff in a new thread He already has his answerhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/electric-shower-heater-mechanism-for-sale/

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:14:24 pm
content: No. The droplets break up quickly, as is apparent from the voltage being small until he brings the collector plate very close to the head.I suppose it would be a bigger risk for tall people (or low showerhead installs) and either metal sewer lines or in-ground masonry stalls (dirt, concrete and tile will all connect to ground when moist).(Note this is more an explanation of the risks in use, what to be mindful of -- it is absolutely possible to electrocute yourself with this. It's quite possible, ordinary even, to operate without shock, but the risk will always be there.)Tim

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:21:42 pm
content: No only this crap is dangerous internally, they also use extremely short wires. Guess to ensure that connection to wiring is made in the worst place possible. And that protective ground wire will corrode in no time and soon nothing will be left there.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:59:56 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 21, 2019, 06:14:24 pmIts a plot to eliminate the tall from society.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:09:56 pm
content: I cannot understand how he avoids getting a lethal shock across his chest in the exerpt of video between 7:20 and 9:00Did he survive because the water must have been not_very_ionic and the soil (earth) round his house is lowly conductive? (eg very dry clay or something)Presumably in the West, where they add fluoride etc to water supplies, he would have been seriously electrocuted?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:29:01 pm
content: This has been discussed before:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/suicide-shower-hear-teardown/I haven't watched the video in this thread, but I've seen plenty of videos about them before.When it's working properly, the risk of death is minimal. The current takes the path of least resistance, which is through the heating wire and the person showering is spared. The problem is when it goes wrong. If the neutral conductor breaks, when it's running full whack, there could be a significant voltage gradient, therefore current flowing through the water to an earthed fixture in the bath. Actually, I think the greatest risk I've heard of is fire due to a failure of the pressure switch causing the element to turn on with no water present and the lack of a thermal fuse and flame retardant plastic means it burns down.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 10:16:11 am
content: Quote from: treez on October 21, 2019, 07:09:56 pmThe concentration of fluoride ions in fluoridated water is very low, around 1 ppm, so shouldn't have a significant effect on the conductivity of the water which will usually be dominated by Ca++, Mg++, Na+, K+, HCO3−, CO3−, SO4−, and Cl−, these usually total several hundred ppm. Fluoride also occurs naturally in the water in many parts of the world, in similar concentrations to where it is added.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 05:20:23 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on October 21, 2019, 05:52:33 pmWell put.Quote from: German_EE on October 21, 2019, 05:52:33 pmSo would I. Good lord.Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2019, 07:29:01 pmOh, that's reassuring. No need to fret then.Here, you can eat those colorful mushrooms! Don't worry, the risk of death is minimal.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 07:25:15 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 22, 2019, 05:20:23 pmMe too.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:38:48 am
content: Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2019, 06:07:08 pmHahaha!You guys keep taking cold showers and I will keep warm after using one of these for 32 years (bedore I moved to the US), backed by at least 180 million people using them daily in Brasil alone. In the other thread linked here, the statistics were that, in 2014, 3 people died when doingmaintenanceon them.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 09:28:37 am
content: I question how valid those statistics are and as I said before, I think fire is the main hazard, rather than electrocution.Anyway, I like cold showers. Even though my shower is heated by a gas boiler, which is checked regularly for safety, I often still have a cold shower and can't see myself ever taking a hot one in a tropical climate such as Brazil, especially if it's one of those crappy things.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2019, 11:57:16 pm
content: Wait, you can getelectric showersnow? All these years I've just been doing this:Edit: Restored image from mirror.

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 01:36:44 am
content: In the 32 years I've been showering with those, I've never diedand only once did I hear of someone getting electrocuted by one of those. As long as it's grounded, it's alright.Quote from: Zero999 on October 23, 2019, 09:28:37 amProtip: not all of Brazil is tropical. I do turn the electric shower off during summer, but where I live, we get sub-zero (Celsius) temperatures in the winter, so...

author: aix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 01:41:48 am
content: Quote from: george.b on November 29, 2019, 01:36:44 amSurvivorship bias in its purest formhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 01:44:48 am
content: Quote from: aix on November 29, 2019, 01:41:48 amHahah, I know, that remark was meant to be tongue-in-cheek

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 01:45:11 am
content: Quote from: aix on November 29, 2019, 01:41:48 amAfter 5 rounds of of Russian roulette, things are going really well here right now.

author: george.r
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 02:08:18 am
content: Quote from: aix on November 29, 2019, 01:41:48 amSHOCKING!!!!111!!1!: >70% of Brazilian population found guilty of survival bias by electric showerhead!!!

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 05:47:51 am
content: I used this kind os shower in Brazil without ground for more than 30 years, before I came to Canada, and I still alive, also all my family, nobody has trouble.This is something that appears to be a big problem on theory but on real live simple worksPeople in the developed world are afraid to be death, Brazilians are protected by god."SHOCKING!!!!111!!1!: >70% of Brazilian population found guilty of survival bias by electric showerhead!!!"By the way wrong number right one is 99.99999 % not 70%

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2019, 01:55:25 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2019, 06:06:04 pmSoldar, I know this is old now, but NO, there is no heating element!!We had those in Australia, years ago, and common for decades....In fact SOME were actually '2-phase', (415v), and used the actual 'water' as the conductingmedium to 'heat' the water, as it flows past/through the plates. In fact, with the 2-phase ones,the whole outer brass body (inside a cover!) live, and mounted on rubber mounts for insulation.The current took the least path of resistance, and not (negligibly) through you, in the water stream.Also with rubber hose links to connect the supply/exit water to the inside brass unit.Sounds crazy, but that's how it was !!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 08:36:04 am
content: I cannot believe such an appliance is made available. Designed by imbeciles and sold by morons.Sadly, they are being imported importing into Australia, under thewatchfulblind eye of the Australian government and eBay. Show me the RCM approval mark! I am going to report these to eBay and the NSW Offfice of Fair Trading to get them removed and hopefully have the importers prosecuted if they have no regulatory approvals. Dodgy Chinese products imported here have killed people in Australia.Heaps of them are for sale out of Australia. One example of many...https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Shower-Head-Effective-Instant-Heater-Electric-Portable-Water-Output-Removable/163949437233?hash=item262c25e131:g:GdgAAOSwAchd0kQQ&frcectupt=true

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 10:04:41 am
content: Specifications:Material: PlasticColor: WhitePower: About5400WVoltage: About220VCurrent:About 25ANot too dodgy or suss hey? Move along folks, nothing to see here...i.e. how many aussie households have true 25 amp capable wiring,much less a 25 or 32 amp circuit and breaker going to their bathroom ?Perhaps thesedeath wishdevices are tested OS by employees wearing 'isolation' flip flops in theTooHungLow Testing Labsshowerand barbequed aussies did not read (tossed) the Chenglish half page fadedcheapass octopus ink'user manaul' stating:"Thank you for byes elecrtic shower but plz you big Cuation! must wares rubber foots!"

author: Clarmrrsn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 10:36:50 am
content: Jesus, and I thought it was risky standing under my budget electric shower installed by my less than qualified landlord before we purchased the house from him.It really was quite something how many electrical issues I have had to resolve in this house, various earth connections missing (chopped off in some cases, he must have missed that part of 18th Edition), the worst was a poorly wired 13a socket on the washing machine nearly going on fire, my partner said she could hear a buzzing noise when I got in from work, when I opened the socket the cables were wired into the posts with maybe a few strands in each!! It really was very badly burned inside, and I think the closest I have been to witnessing an electrical fire.You can be sure after that I checked the installation of the electric shower, and the electrics in the rest of the house.A little knowledge really is a dangerous thing

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 03:45:35 pm
content: Quote from: george.b on November 29, 2019, 01:36:44 amWhere do you live? All of Brazil is still a lot warmer than where I live, even on the mountains, because it's much nearer to the equator.The average annual temperature, in my nearest town, Kempston, near Bedford, is around 10°C. The daily means for the coldest (January and February) and warmest (July and August) months are around 4°C and 17°C. The coldest night of the winter is normally around -8°C and the coldest day 0°C. The hottest summer day is typically around 30 °C and the warmest night 16°C.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford#Climate

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 04:37:05 pm
content: "There is no heating element!!"Totally wrong is a heating element inside.Attached a picture of the Heating element

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 04:40:06 pm
content: Some samples of how low Brazilian temperature can go on WinterSanta Rosa (SC) -1 °C;Campo Alegre (SC) -1,1 °C;Porto União (SC) – 1,3 °C;Mafra (SC) – 1,3 °C;Lages (SC) – 1,3 °C;São Joaquim (SC) – 1,4 °C;Ivaí (PR) – 1,4 °C;Racharia (SP) – 1,4 °C;Papanduva (SC) – 1,5 °C;Vacaria (RS) – 1,5 °C;Itaiópolis (SC) – 1,5 °C;Rio Negrinho (SC) – 1,7 °C;Amambaí (MS) – 1,8 °C;Caçador (SC) – 2 °C;Major Vieira (SC) – 2,2 °C;Irati (PR) – 2,2 °C;Papanduva (SC) – 2,5 °C;Bela Vista (MS) – 2,5 °C;Canoinhas (SC) – 2,6 °C;Urubici (SC) – 2,7 °C;São Mateus do Sul (PR) – 2,8 °C;Água Doce (SC) – 3,5 °C;Inácio Martins (PR) – 3,9 °C;Bom Jardim da Serra (SC) – 5,6 °C.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 07:07:07 pm
content: That's a little colder than LA, what kind of timeframes are those? Is it an all day thing, or just the absolute lowest?http://www.laalmanac.com/weather/we04.php

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 10:41:52 pm
content: ...and this is one of the reasons they invented RCDs.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2019, 11:01:51 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on November 30, 2019, 04:40:06 pmQuite mild compared to most of the UK.Quote from: SL4P on November 30, 2019, 10:41:52 pmThe same could be said about seatbelts which mean you can speed and run red lights and are much less likely to die, than without one.

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 02:16:31 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 30, 2019, 03:45:35 pmI live in the southern region, which is farthest from the equator. The city I'm currently living in isn't that good a parameter because it's a coastal city and the climate tends to be warmer on the coast:But here's where I was living two years ago. It's the same climate type as much of Britain (Cfb), albeit a bit warmer.The region is predominantly Cfa, though. Subtropical, nonetheless - sufficient for most people to probably object to cold showers in winter

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 02:34:23 am
content: It's ok, just plug it into the GFCI outlet and you'll be golden!

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 03:42:51 am
content: Yep, GFCI and RCDs are the way to go,as long as they trip when they should, no problemAnd if they don't, the big box store will gladly givegrieving relativesan exchange or store credit on either the faulty GFCI/RCDand or the electric shower head = win win.. 'bye' with confidence

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 06:50:51 am
content: For the record, I have submitted a report to ASIC on these shower heads being sold in Australia. If they don't carry the RCM compliance mark, hopefully they will be removed from sale and the sellers prosecuted.

author: jmsc_02
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 01:23:34 pm
content: The other day I received a little shock from my toaster (which is properly earthed) because I tried to pick a bread before the toaster ends and that bread was also touching the heating wire.Coming back to the topic I think that the heater wire of the shower can bthe same kind of wire my toaster has, so to me that shower is totally dangerous.By the way after received the shock I learned that I can only touch the bread when the toaster is unplugged.(I tested the earths and all was ok)Regards

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 01:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: jmsc_02 on December 01, 2019, 01:23:34 pmI guess the designers didn't realize that bread becomes conductive when charred. Of which, how come toasters aren't required to have GFCI plugs like hair dryers and window A/Cs do?

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 05:24:43 pm
content: "Coming back to the topic I think that the heater wire of the shower can the same kind of wire my toaster has, so to me that shower is totally dangerous."Isn't a copper wire , is a nickel-chrome resistor, made with nickel-chrome wire

author: george.r
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2019, 10:36:50 pm
content: A few points from someone who has lived in Brazil for the past 25 years, aka a whole life, at least 15 of those tinkering with electricity:Does it seem stupid? Heck yeah. Are there better ways to heat water. Sure.Should these showers elicit such a pants-on-fire reaction?Abseelootily-frootily no. Listen, Brazil may be a $#1th0le, and eh, well, nothing wrong with that assessment. But if these were in any shape or form as lethal as touted in youtube videos and so on, you bet that, in a country with ~200M people, the good majority of those not having gas heaters, you'd have at least a few couple dozen deaths... a month? A year?Bear in mind those are, in most cases, installed in households without anything in the slightest semblance of good earthing (GFCI? HA!, not even in a dream), usually thru 10A-rated wall outlets instead of the ceramic-encased brass screw terminals the shower manufacturers insistently tell people to use, or with wire nuts, or with twisted together wire under a mess of $0.30 electrical tape. Theoretically, every inhabited dwelling with mains power should comply to NBR 5410, but that is a thing most contractors calling themselves "electricians" aren't even aware of. For most, if they carry a multimeter, it'll be ye olde yellow DT830. Haven't seen any with something actually safe for mains use yet.That said, neutrals are usually earthed here. We are slowly reaching the equivalent of 1st world 1980s mains safety.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 09:50:08 am
content: Whether a country is backwards poor or some gold laden place full of money grubbing decadent inbreeding creepshowsthere are better ways to shower or die stupidly, than this piece of time bomm trashthat will take out unawares people like the trusting elderly or children, who assume it's ok to use just because it's thereThe asswipes that design, produce, export/import, and sell this rubbish in 2019, deserve a tar and feather job, just for starters ...People are not a collateral damage percentage calculation for suss products that should be proof tested 24/7 on the numbskulls that design and flog themWhat are the chances they actually use what they sell? Yeah...

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:48:42 am
content: So much ado, so little data.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:59:51 pm
content: How about this....Or even better.... this.....

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 12:36:40 am
content: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=population+of+brazilhttp://agenciabrasil.ebc.com.br/geral/noticia/2019-05/acidentes-com-origem-eletrica-causaram-622-mortes-em-2018Population: ~210 millionNumber of fatal accidents by electrocution (all sources): 622 (2018)

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 08:56:11 am
content: It's still 623 too many fatal accidents by electrocutionHow many of the 622 deceased puffed out due to electrocution showersand other silly landfill worthy gadgets from TooHungLow Industries

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 02:06:47 pm
content: AFAIK all showers and related sold in the country are made here. A good shower can last 20+ years without problems. You'd just change the nichrome element every 3 years or so.Brazil is a huge country and a lot of people don't have access to piped gas. Don't have numbers for this but I had to guess I'd say only 30% of people have access to it.Putting into price perspective: We are a (mostly) tropical country. Aside from the south region, only the shower water needs heating. A good quality (perhaps bad by some engineers high standards here) shower cost around 15 USD. A solar heater alone, not including installation, plumbing, etc costs ~375 USD. What do you think people will choose?-------------Here's some pics from mine (pictures always make things better)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 09:22:20 pm
content: The UK has very strict regulations regarding what electrical appliances are allowed to be installed near a bath or shower.The crazy thing is my parent's had a heater in their bathroom which an electrician said was too close to the bath/shower, so they moved it next to the airing cupboard, which made it more dangerous, since the opening the door obscures the heater, causing a fire hazard and there's now a big burn mark on the door.The heater should have been left where it was. I doubt it was too close. I will check the wiring regulations and if it was a little close, it should have easily been moved a few cm or so. The electrician who move it should have added a switch to the cupboard door to switch it off when the door is opened.

author: george.r
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 06:28:10 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 02, 2019, 09:50:08 amOh, okay, so it appears scary because it has water and is connected to mains, therefore it kills people...?Let me repeat: you don't hear of people getting showercuted to death. There would be mass hysteria over this, should it happen as frequently as your wildly overactive imagination seems to imply. It has nothing to do with them being elderly or children, but with physics. If there was a real, statistically significative shocking risk:1- certifying bodies would ban these outright (because 3rd world country or not, we still have technical standards and organizations overseeing that consumer products are in full compliance with those)2- in the past...uuuh, I don't know, 80 years these have been in use, you certainly would have a flurry of stories on deaths caused by them. You're more likely to die from farting too hard than from taking a shower under one of them things3- the average potatobrain would be scared to death of using one because he heard a friend of a neighbor's uncle's cousin's mother-in-law died from shower-sparkyThose electrons aren't all that willing to jump on people. Is that so hard to understand?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:39:28 am
content: If it was me in Brazil I'd Jerry Rig a roll of copper plumbing coil on the barbeque with some tacky pipe and adapter work ()and get two jobs done safely/saferOTOH if I had too much to drinkwith some tourist bad sex thrown inI would at least get some heat shrink and a fuse on that terminal block asap, or duct/duck tape,as well as do the usual multimeter and or insulation tester thing ..but only if a fast fused semi-isolated transformer, RDC/GFCI and variac were still in transit to my hotel room or guest house in Brazil..

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 01:09:13 pm
content: Funny fact: There are more modern shower models with electronics for finer temperature control that come with a insulated heating element. Those models tend to be a bit more "sensitive", as you can see with the nice charring that is shown at ~3:25m (a great example of "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.")Electric showers are a great example of physics application and human ingenuity. Ain't those some of the pillars of engineering?