Debating the Fluke 87-V vs 28-II to replace my trusty Beckman Industrial DM27XL - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2013, 10:46:46 pm
content: Based on this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/fluke-28ii-vs-87-v-digits/msg82547/#msg82547) I think I know what the basic differences are between the Fluke 87-V and the 28-II, but I'm still torn and have some questions I'm not finding solid answers to.First, a little background. My current meter is a Beckman Industrial DM27XL (you can see a picture of it here:)... I got it new a long while back and have taken good care of it (it still works great!), but I always wanted a better meter and frankly it's well-out-of-date in terms of safety features and such.I realize either Fluke is probably overkill, but I really want One Good Meter that I can rely upon - mostly for bench work, but it might get use in other places as well. Being weather/waterproof is interesting but I don't tend to use a multimeter in the rain, dust storms, etc. (as an aside, I wonder where this comes in handy?)I see that the Flukes don't have quite as many features in some respects: not that I do a ton of transistor testing but it's come in handy before. For frequency testing, outside of the KHz range I'm not sure how handy or reliable a meter is vs a decent scope. The resistance range isn't as wide, but again, is a reading of 1000 Mohms really *meaningful*?Price-wise, I can get the standard 87-V new for $330 USD, while the best price for the 28-II seems to be $475 USD (If there better prices out there for these *new*, let me know!)So, my questions:First and foremost, has the standard Fluke 87-V been discontinued?At this price point I'd like to get as much of a warranty as I can.Is the 87-V superior to the 28-II in terms of accuracy or not?Some say the 87-V is slightly more accurate.Is the 87-V superior to the 28-II in terms of continuity testing, diode testing and other testing?For example, I'm not sure whether the diode testing voltage of 3V is supposed to be worse or better than 2V.Does the 28-II suffer from the GSM interference problem they fixed in the 87-V?Any other notable problems with the 28-II vs the 87-V?Staying under $500 USD new and considering I'll mainly use this in-house, is there something better I ought to be considering?For example, the OLED Agilent looked interesting, but the battery life appears to be terrible. While I've seen many of Dave's reviews of other meters, it *seems* like the 87-V is always called out as superior in the sub-$500 USD price range, if not for features then for safety, but perhaps there's another meter I ought to be seriously considering here.Thank you in advance!

author: zaoka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2013, 10:54:56 pm
content: There is no need for 28II over 87V unless you want to use it outside. Fluke 87V will last you for years, proven.I am trying to sale my meters and will buy Hioki DT4282 just to try something new

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 01:12:04 am
content: You can't go wrong with either meter but they aren't the best buy for features as you have surmised. If you want a real alternative with more features, better accuracy in most measurements, great build quality, and CAT/1000V rated, then consider the Brymen BM869.It does not have the same warranty, only one year. It does not have the same track record as Fluke. It does have worse accuracy on some measurements, and is not great on battery life compared to the Flukes. The leads it comes with are not great, or at least the ones I got were OK, just not great.It has the highest CAT rating there is right now. It has 50,000 counts plus an optional 500,000 count on many functions. It has O-Rings on all joints so it is very environment proof but is not rated in any way.It can be purchased for $240USD plus $50 or so for shipping to the US from:http://www.tme.eu/en/Another $52 gets you the PC connection and software for a total of around $345 with much more functionality and really good safety and build.My post on this meter which includes links to other reviews:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/brymen-bm869-short-review/Dave also did a quick review of some Brymens here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-432-brymen-multimeters/Dave is in the process of reviewing this meter sometime in the future so you can see what he thinks if he does it soon.IMHO, I would not spend the money on Fluke nor Agilent when I can be so confident of the Brymen for a lower price.

author: Salas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 02:41:02 am
content: Quote from: zaoka on May 12, 2013, 10:54:56 pmLooks like a well thought out meter indeed.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 03:08:57 am
content: Quote from: Salas on May 13, 2013, 02:41:02 amThis Hioki definitely piques my curiosity. Accuracy and precision are most important to me... drop-durability, not so much. There's a thread about these as well:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hioki-dmms-available-dt4281-dt4282/Still looking for answers to my questions above though, as I ponder all this (first and foremost, is the 87-V discontinued?)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 03:24:30 am
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 12, 2013, 10:46:46 pmDon't get the OLED version. The U1272A beats the Fluke 87V in almost every area, and has just as good battery life.The Fluke 28II on the hand has AWESOME battery life.QuoteThe main things the 87V still has going for it are build quality and dependability. Feature wise, most meters on the market beat it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 03:25:21 am
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 13, 2013, 03:08:57 amNo. What gives you that impression?It's very likely still one of their highest selling meters.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 05:25:45 am
content: First, thanks for the direct reply here, Dave! Love the vlogs (just finished watching a couple more tonight). They got me thinking about upgrading to a better (and more importantly safer) meter in the first place...Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2013, 03:25:21 amWell, I wasn't sure if the 28-II was a replacement for it. Also, this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/fluke-kills-87v-28ii-and-many-more-updated-models-soon-!!/) led me to ask the question outright (that and how much cheaper the 87-V appears to be lately).Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2013, 03:24:30 amI'll give the U1272A a closer look then! Is it feature-wise the best meter for the buck in the sub-$500 USD range (with reasonable safety as a given), or is there one you think even more highly of in that regard?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 07:51:55 am
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 13, 2013, 05:25:45 amIt's most definitely not.QuoteThat post is 2 years old, and turned out to be incorrect.Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2013, 03:24:30 amIt would certainly be one of the front runners, yes.AFAIK it is the only meter that comes with a proper calibration with values.Can't comment on others as I have not physically used them.I have the Brymen, but have not really used it yet. It appears like great value.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 08:11:10 am
content: I've got a BM869 and I think it's a better value than a U1272A.Either way, almost all the high end options will be an excellent choice and you'd most likely be happy with any of them.If you're crunched for money, the BM867 offers almost all the features of the BM869 but at a dramatic price reduction.The 28-II is like the ruggedized version of the 87v, they more or less have the same specs and are nothing impressive for benchwork, but their reliability is proven and unquestionable.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 09:33:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2013, 07:51:55 amI appreciate the detailed reply. I thought about resurrecting that old post to find out if it was valid or not - the thread just died without further info so I figured that was the word on that (glad to learn otherwise).I did watch your review of the U1272A tonight... it left me with mixed feelings about that meter (also their warranty is rather weak). The 87-V is still looking interesting to me overall, but I'll do more homework on this before I commit to one.And I'll look into the Brymen ones as well, though price will probably be a deal-breaker there. I'm not even sure where I'd buy it from in the U.S. (having done a cursory look just now)...Edit: I see I'm not the only one...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/usa-source-for-brymen-meters/

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 04:02:33 pm
content: A few people here have purchased fromwww.tme.eunow. My experience with them was a bit frustrating but they did deliver in the end. $290 shipped is still a good price IMHO for such a capable and well built meter, the BM869 that is. The BM869 is also known as the Greenlee DM860A if you can find it at a reasonable price. You won't be unhappy with the Fluke 87V, nor the Brymen BM869 or BM867, nor the Agilent U1272A if it doesn't have issues.The other alternative, although I had a bit of a lemon issue with mine, is the UEi DM397. It is $235 in the US fromwww.testequipmentdepot.comand is a very feature rich meter with software and cable included, and it is CATIII/1000V. You can also get free shipping in the 48 states.http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/uei/digital-multimeters/dm397.htmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uei-dm397-video-review-by-jwrelectro/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uei-dm397-i-think-not-an-update-on-this-multimeter/Another option, the Amprobe AM-160:http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/amprobe/multimeters/am-160-a.htmjwrelectro did a review on a AM140 its little brotherhttps://www.youtube.com/user/jwrelectro?feature=watchHorrible backlight but otherwise a really good meter.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 08:41:47 pm
content: That DM397 looks awfully shiny, feature-wise... and it's designed (made?) in the USA even! I'l be giving it a close look (I think durability in terms of accidental physical abuse isn't a big factor for me)... curious what your lemon issue was and how or if it was resolved?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 08:55:00 pm
content: No resolution beyond my other threads. It works well now so if you get one that is calibrated and adjusted correctly it is a great meter. It is a bargain as far as meters go. One thing, the software only works in Windows XP and below, but it works fine in a virtual machine.

author: zaoka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2013, 09:16:41 pm
content: I dont like my U1272A because of 2 reasons: dark display and fast sampling time on DC. If voltage changes you dont see last 2-3 digits because meter updates very fast.This meter has good specs as well:http://www.tequipment.net/YokogawaTY720.html

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2013, 12:12:18 am
content: Little off topic, but does Agilent have anything that competes with the Fluke 289 yet? havent really been keeping up on their handheld meters.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2013, 12:17:13 am
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on May 14, 2013, 12:12:18 amNewp. U1272a is basically their closest competitor.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2013, 12:29:51 pm
content: Update: after lots more reading and review-watching, I'm still leaning towards Fluke 87-V over the Agilent (still digesting info on Brymen/Extech)... though the 287 / 289 has caught my eye as well. Again this will primarily see use on my bench, rather than out and about, so features are important (as is quality).Considering Fluke, are the TL175 TwistGuard decent or not, versus the default TL75 leads? The WearGuard and strain reliefs are nice features and I wouldn't mind some extra length on the probe (I'm surprised those features aren't standard, twisty-bits aside).Edit: I found a thread on the 175s here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/which-fluke-test-leads-to-choose/It's not clear what the TL175E is (it happens that it'd be particularly easy to get that one, but what's a "lantern tip" for (removable though it is)?Also, if anyone recently got one, are the 87-Vs shipping with the newer AC175 clips now? (The AC72 I see commonly listed appears to be discontinued but everyone seems to list them as an in-the-box accessory.)

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2013, 12:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 14, 2013, 12:29:51 pmThe "E" in the TL-175E means they came with the screw on lantern ends. I did not think I'd really use the lantern ends on mine but I have actually used them several times. I have found they are quicker to put on than swapping to banana leads when setting power supplies and such. I could live without them but they do save some time and they allow banana type accessories to push on the tips like my old set of Pomona alligator clips.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2013, 02:01:25 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on May 14, 2013, 12:58:47 pmThanks for the info, sounds like the TL175E is a good value then.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2013, 03:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 14, 2013, 12:29:51 pmIf youre mostly going to be using it on your bench, then you will be able to switch batteries whenever you need to as the battery life isnt as good as other DMMs with the 289 and being thatll mostly be used on a bench I would go with that. Or, look at a benchtop meter. I just placed an order on the new Agilent 34450A as they are running a deal right now giving two upgrades for free right now. More expensive yes, but a next step up over handhelds. Otherwise I love my 289 and the battery life using Sanyo Eneloops has been more than good enough for me so far.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 12:33:56 am
content: I read the other thread on the Agilent bench meter (and its potential drawbacks). Whatever I get, having portability is a consideration (particularly unplugged operation... not going to go spelunking with it but might work on something outside once in a while).Now I've got the 289 bug... but it'll nearly double what I was expecting to pay to get the 87-V (considering the kit with the data cable, software, better probes, etc.) However, it's got that Fluke world-class warranty and pretty solid reviews, which is more than I can say for any of the other brands so far.It'd be a no-brainer if one just stood right out, but if it's not one thing it's another... want the good probes? Pay extra. Want a case? More money, please! Confusing ad copy (not sure what's really in the box / how current it is)? Good luck! I'd have already ordered one if not for all the not-inexpensive extras that end up being involved.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 12:50:22 am
content: This is typical, set a budget and then break it.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 12:58:58 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on May 15, 2013, 12:50:22 amI know. "bang for buck": UT61E. Oooh, reliability: used 87v. Ooh, top of the line: U1272, BM869. Yay logging: fluke 289. Way better performance: 34401a. Oh, what the hell, best of the best: 3458a/8508a.Yeah, if you don't need to move it, a bench meter will give you way more performance/price.@Dave's anti-bench: not all of us have benches large enough for a whole family to sleep on!

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 04:52:16 am
content: If Fluke made a 289 without the logging and given that a somewhat simpler display (but with the same counts and other specs) I'd probably be all over it...As for the others, the reviews weren't very encouraging, and I hesitate to get a dedicated bench meter at this point.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 05:51:44 am
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 15, 2013, 04:52:16 amJust go for the 289. You wont regret it. I went back and forth for a while too, but ultimately I just broke down and tried it. Been happy since.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2013, 09:48:01 am
content: Has anyone dealt with Fluke recently with regard to purchases of the "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" variety? From what I've read (from over a year ago) they honor the warranty if bought that way, but do they honor their authorized dealers promotions too?I'd put in the order right now if I knew for sure... may do it anyway, just to lock it in.

author: mzacharias
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2013, 10:22:33 am
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 18, 2013, 09:48:01 amOn the lifetime warranty models, to my knowledge Fluke in the U.S. actually honors the warranty even for "used" meters, they just don't say so outright.I think the reason is that so many are purchased by employers and records no longer available to the end user, often years later.When you set up for factory service they don't seem particularly interested in where you bought it or when, nor do they require documentation when you send it in for service.Just don't mention "used" or "eBay" and I think you would be fine.There. I've just queered the whole deal...

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2013, 10:29:21 am
content: After talking with Amazon I may hold off on that avenue til I find out more. I don't want surprises, and frankly I rather like the current Fluke promos (and those require purchase from an "authorized" dealer). (Edit: However, $615 + tax is a rather sweet price...)For those who've ordered Fluke products in the U.S., who is the most reliable Fluke dealer any of you have dealt with, in terms of being a) authorized, b) good to deal with and c) having current stock (versus outdated stock)?I'm pondering TestEquipmentDepot.com and TEquipment.net in particular... both seem to have a 5% off deal going on as well right now, though I would have to wait up to a week to get my order if shipped via the "free" options. Since the price is effectively identical between the two I'm trying to differentiate on other considerations (after all, I could become a return customer).

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2013, 11:11:15 am
content: I've ordered equipment from both TestEquipmentDepot.com and TEquipment.net lately. No problems with either. Got my 87V from Amazon, full warranty and it had the latest version board. Only problem I've had recently was Amazon sent me a Weller soldering station that had been opened (my guess is a return). They replaced it overnight at no charge when I called.

author: rstoer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2013, 12:57:15 pm
content: I went through this same process a few months ago and wound up with the Fluke 87v which I'm very happy with. The Agilents didn't appeal to me so it came down to the Fluke (87v/287/289) or the Breymen (available rebranded as Greenlee in the USA). If you're still interested in the Breymen, the top-of-the-line models are the Greenlee DM820A, DM830A, and DM860A. All but the 860 are available on Amazon w/free shipping. Greenlee's site will show you where to buy the 860 and you may be able to find a dealer locally. I live in a rural area and there are two near me.In the end, rather than trying to find one meter that does everything, I supplemented the 87v with an old Fluke 5 1/2 digit bench meter with four wire resistance, in great condition, that I picked up on eBay for under $100. Plus the bench meter belonged to NASA (it still has the calibration stickers) which I thought was way cool.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2013, 04:37:11 pm
content: TestEquipmentDepot.com has been awesome for me. Ive been ordering more and more from them.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2013, 07:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on May 18, 2013, 04:37:11 pmI've been watching prices on Amazon drop over the weekend for the 289/FVF kit but I'm glad I waited until today: Test Equipment Depot has a few of them for $553 on Amazon with free shipping (not many, but it appears to be the real deal, and only via Amazon). I paid a bit extra to get it faster, but it still beat every other price out there.Also, according to Fluke I should be able to use the "Right Tool for the Right Job" promo since it's still shipped and sold by them (AKA Fotronic) and they're an authorized dealer. Fingers crossed! And it sounds like a firmware fix for the ambient light problem with the optical connector is on its way (I got to see the meter in action at Maker Faire this weekend and the engineer who had it fabricated a cover for the sensor because of this).

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2013, 08:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 20, 2013, 07:52:08 pmAmazon charges sales tax to California people now, so buying directly from TestEquipmentDepot is a better bet for us these days. And yes, both Amazon and TestEquipmentDepot are authorized resellers and I got in on the "Right Tool for the Right Job" promo too. Cool to get something for free, and then just eBay itlol Also, as far as I have learned form my research, the IR issue during data logging was only really an issue with the 287 and that firmware fix has been out a while now. From what I saw the 289 never demonstrated the problem.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2013, 09:09:21 pm
content: Yes, the tax on items solddirectly by Amazon itselfto certain states can be a factor (though sometimes it's still a better deal).And yes, the IR issue does exist on the 289 - the engineer I met made his optical port cap for that reason, and from my call today it sounded like Fluke is aware of the issue and is working on it.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2013, 09:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 20, 2013, 09:09:21 pmTrue.And huh, Id kinda like a cover for the port just for cleanliness reasons. How much was that guy trying to get for one of those covers and where can we order?

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2013, 10:13:10 pm
content: I know exactly who I spoke with but I can't find his website... I'll have to look for it later tonight. He wasn't selling them (or I'd have bought one!), he just designed a little cover, 3D-printed in dark grey or black, then added yellow Sugru to the top and sides to block IR (evidently the base plastic doesn't do a good job at that). It looked great - my first question was where he bought the cover! - but it was definitely a one-off.Edit: Hey, I found it!http://www.shapeways.com/model/373094/protection-cap-for-fluke-287-289.htmlAnd I found his original post on the cap:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/kill-a-fluke-287-with-a-halogen-lamp/msg70992/#msg70992

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2013, 10:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 20, 2013, 09:09:21 pmFixed.http://mjlorton.com/forum/index.php?topic=297.0

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2013, 10:35:44 pm
content: That would be the firmware Fluke mentioned to me today then, and apparently it's not yet available (though hopefully will be in the next few days or weeks).

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2013, 07:27:59 am
content: A Fluke 87III can be had on eBay for $100. I just bought 2.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2013, 04:16:50 pm
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 20, 2013, 10:13:10 pmAh, good ol Shapeways. Looks like they are not actually for sale though. Oh well, waste of money I guess if there is going to be a new firmware to fix the issue. However it would be nice to have one just as a dust cover. But since hes 3D printing them and not actually injection molding them I doubt itll hold up too well. Everything I have bought from Shapeways 3D printing was kinda brittle and really just for prototyping before you move the product to injection molding or something similar.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2013, 04:27:50 pm
content: FWIW it looked solid enough to me and he's been using it for quite a while. Either way, the design's out there for people to try.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2013, 04:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: MartyMacGyver on May 21, 2013, 04:27:50 pmIt is? Where? Shapeways says its "Not For Sale". So where does one get it exactly?

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2013, 05:52:14 pm
content: I thought it was downloadable despite that - evidently not. Here's his original blog post on it... you might try contacting him about it (perhaps he can chime in on this thread):http://www.aerodynes.fr/2012/04/23/fluke-289-fixing-the-shutdown-issue/Edit: I don't have the design, I just saw the cap in person and asked about it.

author: MartyMacGyver
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 06:30:00 pm
content: My 289 arrived today (and was evidently manufactured just a couple of weeks ago)!I easily updated it to 1.16 (came with 1.12):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-287-289-firmware-update-version-1-16-now-posted/I was happy to see that it came with the newer AC175 alligator clips (an improvement on the discontinued AC72s it used to come with):http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/accessories/test-leads-probes-and-clips/ac175-alligator-clip-set.htm?PID=76067It also came with a couple of protective caps for the test leads, presumably for higher CAT ratings compliance (didn't expect that).All in all, I'm very pleased. Thanks for all the helpful hints and suggestions here, and thanks to Test Equipment Depot for the quick turnaround on my order through Amazon (still surprised at the sale price there...)

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 06:52:38 pm
content: I am glad that you got something of that high a quality and safety. It is doubtful you will ever need another mutimeter. The problem is now not if you need one, but if you crave another.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 07:00:28 pm
content: Congrats and excellent choice! I love mine and yea Id def only upgrade for if/when they came out with a newer/upgraded model of the 289! Otherwise so far this has been an awesome handheld DMM!