"Nullator", "Norator" and "Nullor", Anyone know the etymology? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: INLET1011
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 04:31:38 pm
content: I'm studying equivalent circuits. (non-English speaker)Nullator probably got its name because both voltage and current are null. But how does this differ from Nullor in terms of grammar?Do "Nullate + or" and "Null + or" have different meanings, and do they each appropriately express the operation of the actual circuit?Also, what is the origin of Norator?Is there an English word that starts with "Nora~" and means "arbitrary"?Thank you.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 05:37:57 pm
content: Nullator (n) Nullor(adj) Nullate(v). Its worth noting that thse words do not appear in the Oxford English Dictionary or the Merriam Webster Dictionary.For practical engineering purposes its probalby an irrelavent idea. An opamp with negative feedback applied is a form ofnullator.Null has the same root as the English word Nil, which means zero or nothing.Seewww.oed.comSo Null refers to a zero quanity or state. A point of equilibrium or a point of inflexion.Null, nulling etc have their roots in Latin: hwww.online-latin-dictionary.com/latin-dictionary-flexion.php?lemma=NULLUS100You could then ask what is the root of the Latin word and so on, it gets you no where!Null can be a verb or an adjective or a noun. You could "null" an opamp circuit. It would then be at a "null". You could also be looking for a null point.In engineering only null (adjective) and nulling (verb) are generally used.eg "Set the circuit to the null point (on your DMM ) by the process of nulling (with a potentiometer)".

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 06:11:00 pm
content: Please meet the commonly agreed equivalent.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 08:13:37 pm
content: @TerryBites: Generally I agree with your grammar, as I am from a former colony, but I disagree about whether null is just an adjective. Null is a noun, adjective, and verb (https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/). Nulling is the gerund form (loc.cit.).In electronics especially, null is also used as a verb.@ Inlet1011: When you mean both are null, you probably mean "and" not "or."

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 08:29:48 pm
content: it is a word, what matters is the connection the word implies. discussing linguistic is a discussion to no end...

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 10:46:46 pm
content: It is best to consider nullator, nullor, and norator asnamesonly, and not think about how they were derived.If you start thinking about 'strawberry' (which is botanically a fruit) or 'banana' or 'tomato' (which are both botanically berries) and their etymology, you'll just tie yourself into a knot, until you give up and accept that us humans use weird and nonsensical names for things.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2024, 11:38:36 pm
content: In general, I agree with the two previous posts; however, INLET1011 was asking about the grammar. Grammar important is. Prose written in archaic or wrong grammar is harder to understand.Apparently "nullator" does have a specific meaning in electronics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullator), but someone who is not in that field may think it means something else.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 08:57:47 am
content: Hello,This is interesting. I've been involved in the electronics field in some form or another for many years but either I didn't know such a thing was called a nullator or or nullor, or else I had long forgotten about these terms.There are some unusual things that come up like this from time to time.Another one I like to call an "anisotropic short" is another unusual item that can be used in electronic circuit analysis to better understand what is going on. Currently in mainstream electronic/electrical network analysis I do not think there is a name for it, and that seems strange because when it comes up there's no way to explain it.Note: Another name would be "aniselectric short" which I may prefer because it is more specifically aimed at the electrical properties of such an entity.I thought that name was appropriate because it is a short for current, but an open circuit for voltage. That means when we analyze a circuit in that place for current, it becomes a perfect short circuit (zero Ohms) yet when we analyze it for voltage, it becomes a perfect open circuit (infinite Ohms). Thus, depending on how you measure it, it is either a short circuit or an open circuit, and that leads to the prefix "anis" or "aniso".This is another unusual thing for circuits used mainly during an analysis. There was no name for it so I thought it was appropriate to call it something so that it could be referred to as an known object with known properties rather than some mysterious thing that has no appropriate name.As to other thing us humans do is assign the title of "noun" to things that do not really exist on their own. Initially you would think everything we call a noun is a physical object of some type that is made up of some kind of material or something. However, it seems we call things nouns sometimes just to make it easier to talk about and deal with on an everyday basis.The best example I think is a "hole", like a hole in the ground. There is nothing there, yet we assign it a name that implies that there is a physical object there. It's actually 'made up' of a surrounding material that is actually there, like dirt (a hole in the ground). But notice I even had to put the phrase "made up" in quotes because it is hard to say it is made, yet it is made, and if something is made, it should be a noun. We have to call it something because we encounter these things on a daily basis, and it's easier to refer to it as a 'hole' rather than say that it's a "lack of dirt"."Hey John, look at that lack of dirt over there!". "Oh yes, I see it now".Language is just another approximation when it comes to describing nature. It's more a matter of convenience to name things that do not really exist."Nullator" is interesting because it assigns a noun to not only something pseudo physical, but also that it has some sort of process associated with it which causes an action. Also, in theory it is a perfect mechanism, but in practice it is not perfect just an approximate mechanism.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 09:22:10 am
content: I've updated my reply in response to other comments.Accademic engineers, what BS will they think of next!

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 10:58:18 am
content: "nulling" is still a gerund. It is a verb used as a noun. Of course, Winston Churchill one quipped about ending a sentence with a preposition, "That's what prepositions are for."QuoteSource:https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/prepositions-rule.php#:~:text=There%20is%20one%20very%20simple,never%20followed%20by%20a%20verb.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 04:16:04 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 30, 2024, 10:46:46 pmThe English language makes no sense, because it's derived from a mixture of other languages.The same words can have different meanings and pronunciations depending on the context, for example "To lead a dog "or "That solder contains lead.", then there are homophones such as brake and break, which often confuse me. The meaning of some words has changed over time such as gay, which used to mean happy and is now more used as a term for homosexual.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 04:17:20 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on March 30, 2024, 05:37:57 pmYou reminded me that when the non inverting terminal is grounded this also sort of ties in with the so-called "virtual ground" idea.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 04:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 31, 2024, 04:16:04 pmThat's interesting too just look up the word "fa--ot" which has several meanings, only one refers to a gay person indignantly, and going way back in time it changed a lot. A South Park episode tried to get the meaning changed in the dictionary to "Anyone who rides a Harley and disrupts other peoples lives with the loud engine revving" (paraphrased). That was funny and interesting because many people use that word in anger over people that bother them in some way and have no connection to anyone that happens to be gay. The concept of gay or not never enters their mind.That might just be a time when even PC correctness is not PC correct.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 06:09:54 pm
content: Quote from: MrAl on March 31, 2024, 04:23:06 pmPresumably you're talking about the word faggot, which is a meat based dish as far as I'm concerned. Nothing else.https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/282049626

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 07:25:57 pm
content: thats not faggot

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 07:50:30 pm
content: I've always associated the term with bassoon instead.Anyway, in case it is unclear to anyone reading,nullator,norator, andnullorare theoretical/idealized electronics components useful for circuit design and analysis. To recap from the linked Wikipedia articles,nullator: a device with two terminals at the same voltage but no current flowing through. Essentially, both voltage and current over it are zero. The inputs of an ideal operational amplifier behave like a nullator.norator: a device with two terminals and whatever voltage and current across them for the circuit to work. Essentially, a controlled voltage or current source with infinite gain.(You see these often in simplified device schematics representing internal voltage+current sources in various IC datasheets, especially when the actual source ends up being e.g. laser-trimmed during manufacturing.)nullor: an ideal amplifier with infinite current, voltage, transconductance, and transimpedance gains. Consists of a nullator and a norator.Mathematically, these let you simplify the circuit model or description bybehaviour, instead of in terms of actual components implementing the behaviour.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2024, 08:00:17 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on March 31, 2024, 07:25:57 pmYes it is.Faggots are one of my favourite childhood foods. They're great with boiled new potatoes, peas and carrots. The real ones from the butchers which used to be where my parents live were lovely. Much better than Mr Brains frozen food, which I only posted because they're the only well-known brand.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 12:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on March 31, 2024, 07:25:57 pmYou seem surprised, and that's one of the fallacies of PC correctness. People understand that there are different meanings of the same word, yet when presented with such a word they can only take it to mean one thing. The truth is, it depends where and how it is used and if it is directed at any individual or group, or just a general use of the word(s).Sometimes the words even though derogatory are still mentioned when there is a discussion about such a word as to be used possibly in that very mode. In these cases it is meant to open an intelligent discussion about the word not to mock anyone out. The only problem here then is, you have to be discussing with intelligent people to begin withThere's a saying:"When you censure speech you substitute one prejudice for another".That's a slightly different issue though.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 12:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 31, 2024, 08:00:17 pmThat's interesting, I did not know about such a food until now.That's another definition to add to the list then.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 02:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 31, 2024, 08:00:17 pmQuote from: MrAl on April 01, 2024, 12:03:17 pmi know... pork is... meat based yes... dish or food? no! not in my definition... its even in the "forgotten" deutronomy, leviticus and isaiah... cheers.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2024, 03:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 01, 2024, 02:32:07 pmThat's just your culture. For example, people were I live generally don't eat goat. Certainly not the natives anyway.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2024, 10:37:51 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 01, 2024, 02:32:07 pmHello there,Thanks for the reply, but I don't think I understand your meaning here. Why did you bring in meat here, does that have something to do with PC correctness? Or was that just another example of how cultures differ?Maybe what you are saying here is that PC correctness cannot be applied across the entire planet unless it itself changes as we move around the globe form country to country. That would be a very good point.