Products you're glad are extinct. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 08:10:14 am
content: This is a riff on the ever popular 'products you hate' topic....I took some time to do some way overdue cleaning here. In the process I decided it was time to get a new mouse pad out -- the old one was covered with that crud which used to accumulate not only on the pad but also in the roller-ball mouse. You know, on the ball, and the sensor wheels, and often in the sensors themselves, causing the mouse to completely quit working until you cleaned it all out. If you were lucky you could get it back working. But often, the crud was so infiltrated into the entire workings that the roller ball mice would need to be replaced on a fairly regular basis - depending of course on the environment and how diligent you were in cleaning it before it quit working.Then there was the mystery mouse-ball disappearances. Pretty common in settings where the general public has access to machines (schools, libraries, etc.). For whatever reason, people loved to steal the mouse ball out of the mice, rendering the mouse unusable. The solution was of course to glue the door on the bottom of the mouse. Which solved the stealing problem, but pretty much prevented you from cleaning the mechanism (see above).I'm sure I could go on about other problems with ball-style mice (like the issues revolving around poor engineering, the issues regarding different surface friction, etc., etc., etc., etc.), but I think you all get the idea of how much I'm glad these are extinct. I'm sure there are other products which we're all glad are extinct. So the question for everyone else is: What other products (or variations of products) are you glad are extinct?P.S. My Logitech-branded optical mouse I bought 10+ years ago (when the PS/2 ports started going extinct) is still going strong, with very few if any cleanings.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 08:34:52 am
content: They still there, with a new format and shapehttps://www.amazon.com/YUMQUA-Y-01-Portable-Finger-Trackball/dp/B00X3LEJBE/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1481445226&sr=8-12&keywords=trackball

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 08:39:39 am
content: Speaking of extinct mice, I actually miss the trackball on laptops. Some touchpads are OK, others are just implemented very poorly. I won't admit to this often but I actually seriously considered an Apple PowerBook back in the early 1990's (when I was still in primary school -- Yes, I was a nerd very early on), largely because of the built-in trackball mouse.I didn't end up getting one, I think I built a desktop PC instead.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 08:55:09 am
content: Quote from: forrestc on December 11, 2016, 08:10:14 amWhat ?You're still using a mouse ?Get a Trackman.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 09:02:39 am
content: Been using these since the mid 90's. Never going back.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 09:16:31 am
content: I actually used to like the nipple (eraser point) mice that were popular on ThinkPads. The only issue with them is that after a few years of use they wouldn't always quite return to center, causing the cursor to slowly drift. Still, it was a nice mechanism because your hands didn't have to leave the keyboard.Later ThinkPads included both a trackpad and an eraser point, but the trackpad was tiny and basically useless imho.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 10:31:46 am
content: Anything can come backhttp://www.daliborfarny.com/

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 11:12:30 am
content: Portable media like floppy disks/cd/dvd/br. Pretty much every place has a network or internet, or when you absolutely need to take data with you, a USB stick is far more convenient.No more bullshit like scrached surfaces or getting stuck in the reader (floppies with a bent slider...).

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 11:38:17 am
content: Tell me any other media cheaper than a CD/DVD simple does not exist the cheapest china fake pen drive , is at least one magnitude of order more expensive than CD/DVD if not two

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 04:25:32 pm
content: CRT TV sets and monitors.No more all-permeating whining everywhere.Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 11, 2016, 11:12:30 amNot exactly. In most of the world internet is still an expensive or unreliable luxury, so USB sticks are not going anywhere soon.I do agree about CD/DVD/BD/etc, however.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 06:34:56 pm
content: I use optical mice here but I still have a 12 year old Dell roller ball mouse that works perfectly. Not sure why I am holding on to it but, then again, not sure why I hold on to a lot of stuff I have. I was even using the mouse on my company docking station while waiting for my replacement wireless USB mouse to come in.

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 08:57:24 pm
content: Crt based monitors/TV's. Those huge things took up so much space, which most didn't realize. Heck i had to help throw one away, and it was a pain to move in the house. Heavy as ever. I could keep on ranting.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 10:05:45 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 11, 2016, 09:00:13 pmAnd would spend the rest of the week fishing tiny glass pieces from every orifice of the house...

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 10:15:50 pm
content: Vinyl records and audio compact cassettes. That was a terrible period for hifi enthousiast..

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 10:20:24 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on December 11, 2016, 10:15:50 pmThere are plenty of people around who would differ with you on the former, and it has begun to make a comeback recently. I don't currently have a horse in that race, but thought I'd throw it out there...-Pat

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 10:35:01 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 11, 2016, 12:14:19 pmWhat universe do you live in?!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2016, 10:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 11, 2016, 09:00:13 pmSo if your not killed/injured/cut by the implosion (and flying sharp glass fragments) risk, the mercury and other toxic substances (whatever toxic nightmare the crt is made with), can have a second attempt.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:23:46 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 11, 2016, 10:41:38 pmIts a vacuum, not toxic gas.You tap the very back where the glass is thinnest, you'll hear a pop and the suction of a second but no huge mess/implosion.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:26:45 am
content: Quote from: eugenenine on December 12, 2016, 12:23:46 amSource (But I knew about it anyway):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode_ray_tubeQuote

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:31:41 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 11, 2016, 10:44:10 pmAnd yet Amazon exclusive content is readily available complete with original audio bitstream and subtitles within minutes of release.And nobody cares about obscure Japanese content - that's why they're not cracked.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:43:15 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 11, 2016, 10:41:38 pmOnly very very old CRT (like 60-70+ years old) could implode dangerously. Everything newer had implosion protection. There are no toxic substances inside, only vacuum.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:50:24 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2016, 12:26:45 amCadmium? Take NiCd battery and there will be many orders of magnitudes more cadmium. Leaded glass? Go to the supermarket, buy crystal (lead glass) glassware and then safely drink from it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:53:13 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 12, 2016, 12:43:15 amYour taking the assumption that the implosion protection is still intact, working and has not been compromised and/or removed as part of the potentially amateur attempts at disposing/destroying it.If the implosion protection has been compromised (or is faulty etc), it can implode.I've come across a number of warnings, that CRTs can be toxic. I'm NOT an expert on the chemistry or dangers (toxicity) of crts, so can only repeat that (from apparently reliable sources), I have seen warnings that they can be toxic and dangerous.The potential for small/tiny glass fragments (not necessarily from implosion, but because it is glass), going all over the place, is enough to put me right off messing with something like that. I don't even like it, when a small glass, gets smashed up. Let alone something so big/heavy.Anyway, the dangers of crts is NOT something that I know that much about. So I will have to concede, if someone more knowledgeable comes along. I was carefully taught how dangerous they were, when I was a child. At that time, I did not have the expertise to disagree.EDIT:Example of the sort of thing I sometimes come across, warning about the dangers:http://www.brighthub.com/environment/green-computing/articles/12257.aspxExtract:Quote

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 02:42:40 am
content: Quote from: Vgkid on December 11, 2016, 08:57:24 pmIt's just a shame that LCD is such a sub-standard display technology!CRT PQ is still unbeaten by LCD (Black levels & Shadow details in particular), just shame the resolutions are so low and the units are so big. I have the final release Sony 14" PVM-14M4E 800 line CRT sitting on my Retr0 desk for my Amiga's and C64 and the PQ is just stunning, colours, blacks and grayscale tracking are all pefect on it even today 20 years after it was made!Thank Dog LG OLED TV panels are now reaching affordable price points or I'd have to hold onto my Lounge room 50" Pro Pioneer Plasma for another 10 years till something else arrived to better it!

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 03:33:26 am
content: Quote from: Karel on December 11, 2016, 10:15:50 pmhttps://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/dec/06/tables-turned-as-vinyl-records-outsell-digital-in-uk-for-first-time

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 04:21:28 am
content: Whilst not strictly extinct (yet), for all intents and purposes it's close enough...RealPlayer.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 05:11:21 am
content: Having been kind of a wild child, I tried many times to get the impressive implosion from a broken CRT. I can't say that it is impossible, but never got anything impressive. No worse than breaking a mirror or a window. The most impressive result came from just breaking off the fill nipple and listening to it suck for a long time.CRTs do contain a number of toxic substances. So do most of the other things we work with.On the topic of the thread, they aren't quite gone yet, but it is close and no one will be happier than me to see compact fluorescent bulbs fade completely away. The best of them weren't too bad, but many were far from the best. From slow turn on, to varying brightness, to lack of dimming capability, to short life, to poor fit in many fixtures and difficult or expensive disposal it is amazing that they ever got much market share.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 05:13:35 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2016, 12:53:13 amThe implosion protection is pretty much integral to the tube.You would have to take to it with a sledge hammer.Millions of CRTs have been disposed of,hundreds by myself,with no implosions.Even when we found some very old tubes without integrated protection & tried to create a spectacular implosion.it was very disappointing.QuoteAny article which includes "computing articles" in its title is of suspect accuracy,as most "computer people" tend to call the whole monitor a "CRT" rather than just the "big glass thing".That allows them to include the solder on the PCBs as "lead content".The whole concept of "lead glass" is that the lead is part of the glass,just like the lead glass drinking glasses which have been common for centuries,& is not available to leach into the environment.For many years a "barium meal" (it looks like a "mud thickshake")has been taken by mouth,prior to intestinal x-rays.The amount of barium released by a CRT is less than this dose.

author: smithnerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 05:54:48 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2016, 12:53:13 amI'm fairly sure my lower back embuggerance was caused by lugging workstation CRTs about, during my early 20s. IIRC, the Sun 21" trinitron ones weighed 70+lbs - which was more than half my own weight at the time.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 05:58:35 am
content: Quote from: smithnerd on December 12, 2016, 05:54:48 amI did mine lugging 132 column dot matrix printers around in the 90's, I was too stupid to use the lift trolley and paid the price.... One day my back went twang and the rest is history.I must say tho, aside from doing big posters with fan-fold paper, I don't miss the noisy buggers at all!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 08:09:30 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 12, 2016, 05:13:35 amMy recollections about the dangers of imploding crts, comes from quite a long time ago. At that time (a somewhat long time ago), unprotected crts, were probably a lot more prevalent. Which is maybe why I am banging on too much about imploding crts.I've heard and/or been given many safety warnings. Such as crts can implode, pressure cookers can "explode", don't touch someone who is being electrocuted, because you can then also get an electric shock, and be careful of lightning storms as you cen get electrocuted by lightning. Etc etc.Yet in practice, I've generally NOT encountered such "accidents", or heard much about actual such incidents. Except maybe on the news.I guess that in the 1930's, 1940's, 1950's etc, such things occurred and killed/injured some people. Hence the warnings were created/spread. But these days we have implosion protected crts, pressure cookers with a number of safety devices, RCD protected mains outlets (often but not always), etc etc. So such injuries or worse is (fortunately) getting somewhat rare.The toxic stuff gets complicated. Because if you did get a somewhat toxic exposure from something. You may not see the results of the exposure for a number of decades. By which time you may not be sure what caused the illness(s).tl;drWe still call the middle of pencils, "pencil LEAD", even though lead has NOT been used in pencils, since ? ? ?. (Hundreds of years ?).I've tried googling the answer. But instead it is confusing me, and saying that there was never lead in the first place (or that it was >1795 or >1500's). Or maybe it was actually graphite which was mistakenly called lead, or something. Different sources, say different things. So my googling is just confusing me.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 08:43:54 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2016, 08:09:30 amIf my history is correct, lead was never used in pencils at all (for the writing part anyway). Very early pencils used sticks of graphite wrapped in any number of materials. Later graphite was then mixed with clays and wooden outers were added. Some outer coatings of paint applied to the wood contained lead. High levels of lead was common pre-1970's. The actual graphite writing part posed no health risk other than a painful wound if you're stabbed using a pencil and possible infection from external sources. It also doesn't taste very nice. I'd say the name "lead pencil" came from the familiar colour as opposed to any actual elemental lead content.It only takes a small amount of lead exposure to start causing problems. This is largely the reason why people who work in armouries or handle ammunition constantly as a profession are routinely tested for blood lead levels.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 08:49:40 am
content: beer.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:06:38 am
content: While the glass in a CRT is not likely to be particularly harmful, leaded glass isn't commonly used for drinkware anymore precisely because the lead can and does leech out. Alcoholic and acidic liquids can dissolve the lead oxide, freeing the lead ions. The good news is that this is only really a problem with new leaded glass, and with repeated use the amount of lead that can be leached out decreases rapidly.Storing anything you plan to drink in a leaded glass container for an extended period of time is probably not a good idea, though.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:41:35 am
content: Quote from: Nerull on December 12, 2016, 09:06:38 amLeaded glass is still fairly common. Some of the high-end glass makers such as Swarovski, Riedel and Moser still use leaded glass. The risk is fairly low though. The stuff you pour into the glass is probably more likely to kill you in the long term than the minute quantities of lead that might leach out of it. Besides, drinking a nice Australian Shiraz is so much nicer out of a good quality, heavy crystal glass. :-) You only live once.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:51:18 am
content: Dialup modems, especially that annoying as crap "coffee grinder" noise they make negotiating the connection.I do miss my ISDN line though, got really excellent quality phone calls.also +1 to Realplayer being dead, nice concept, annoying implementation and crap video quality.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 10:08:29 am
content: Quote from: station240 on December 12, 2016, 09:51:18 amI find it quite nostalgic. I miss dial-up, don't miss the speed.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 11:33:26 am
content: Aviator sunnies.Suits.Suntan lotion.Incandescent bulbs (on a hot day you can feel the fuckers fromsomefeet away).MulletsDrainpipe jeansWhamThe police academy franchiseThe cold war (for now)...

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 11:58:49 am
content: Quote from: station240 on December 12, 2016, 09:51:18 amWas at least better than quicktime. realplayers demise was right after they started intrusive advertising.quicktime is one I'm glad is gone. Didn't research enough when buying a digicam and the nice nikon we bought the movies were in quicktime format. IIRC Dragonplayer in Linux could play it but try getting quicktime working in windows without the forced install of safari, itunes, etc and 20+ reboots.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:32:59 pm
content: They remade these at one point and I bought a set. So far they have not chipped. They are pretty ugly (solid color) compared to the original ones and I think the balls are smaller. Or they seemed larger when I was younger. Tried to get another set and the store that had them no longer carried them.Quote from: John Coloccia on December 11, 2016, 09:21:48 am

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 12, 2016, 12:32:59 pmBack in New York, we all knew them as Kerbangers. Everyone else seems to call them Clackers. Anyhow, I had two sets of Kerbangers. Both of them had this little plastic handle, and the handle would eventually break, leaving you with a little stub to hold on to (not a big deal) and sending the Kerbangers flying in some random direction...usually right in my face.Mine never shattered, but after wacking myself with them more times than I can count, even a young kid like me finally took a hint and gave up on them.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 12:49:17 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on December 12, 2016, 11:58:49 amWell for me the whole pre-VLC era was pain in the ass when it came to video.As for dial-up music, hated it back then, but now just brings back some nice memories.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 02:08:20 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2016, 12:53:13 amNot posting for anything other than information.Implosion protection is a part of the CRT (bonded faceplate) and cannot be disassembled or removed, it can still implode if you hit it hard enough in the wrong place but I've seen (and almost needed new underwear) 26" TV CRTs being dropped face down. It doesn't do the shadowmask or gun alignment any good and can render the tube utterly unusable but it didn't cause it to implode.Older monochrome TVs (we're talking VHF 405 Line era) and entirely possibly a lot of more modern Oscilloscope/Electrostatic deflection tubes didn't/don't have the bonded faceplate and needed a safety screen in front, the tubes were very fragile compared to the bonded faceplate style.As for the chemistry, the aquadag will apparently give you a nasty case of the squits for a day or two but the lead is in the glass, I believe it can leach out but I think we're talking hundreds of years and in the right conditions, while I'd not want to eat one I reckon the glass is fairly safe. The gun assembly and phosphors might be a different matter.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 02:46:17 pm
content: Leisure suits. I hated them. I never bought or tried one on.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 02:52:38 pm
content: The protections on CRTs were (since the 1970s) quite good; but it still is good practice to not lift them with the screen against your belly. Typically I would lift them facing to the left or right, or if that wasn't practical, from the back. I miss the days when large, expensive CRTs were easily available for free: these days the prices are getting rather high if you try to find a good one.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 03:00:17 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 12, 2016, 12:32:59 pmEveryone thinks their balls are larger when they're young. Age usually brings caution.

author: Watth
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 03:14:15 pm
content: Phillips and Pozidriv screw heads are (too slowly) being replaced by Torx/hexalobe/Star heads.At least for wood screws.I hate with a passion cruciform screwheads.Even if you have the perfect screwdriver bit you end messing up the screw or the bit.Only thinking about those makes me shaking in anger. *punches wall*

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 04:06:26 pm
content: Lead wiped cables. so much better with the modern cable joining methods, which are able to join to lead cable and plastic cable with no issues. No need for the massive gas cylinders, burners and lead pots, plus all the lead ingots you had to feed into there for each join, plus all the cloth waste you burned wiping the lead, and the bottles of Pic-A-Nin acid flux used to clean the joint edges before pouring.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 04:29:11 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 12, 2016, 08:43:54 amThanks. That was very interesting and informative. When I was much younger, I noticed and tried, using solder (lead) to write on paper, and to my amazement, it works, pretty much like a pencil does. Hence this made me think (at the time), that there was/is some truth (historically), about lead being used instead of graphite (carbon), in pencils.Further googling seems to agree with you.https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/ever-wondered-about-the-lead-in-pencils/2014/11/26/f8b5869c-548a-11e4-809b-8cc0a295c773_story.html?utm_term=.f5f303415a6bSo apparently, it was a "stylus" that actually used "lead" and/or pencils did not really use lead. BUT it WAS called "lead", because in old times they INCORRECTLY thought the graphite was "lead". Ancient Chemisty was not good enough to differentiate between graphite and real lead, apparently.Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2016, 02:08:20 pmI thought that an important part of the implosion protection, was a metal band, around the crt. So if that metal band was damaged or removed, the crt tube, could pose an implosion risk. The idea of the metal band, was that it meant that if the crt implodes, it does so, in a relatively safe way. Which does NOT send out fragments of glass, flying at high speed in all directions.I remember the 405 line VHF TVs, taking ages to first show a usable picture after switch on (like minutes). They potentially needed messing with the vertical hold control, every 30 minutes or so (the picture would keep on moving (scrolling), with a huge/thick black line, scrolling from the top or bottom of the picture).But they could be very sensitive, needing not much in the way of aerials, to give a decent (but black and white only), picture.In that era, they also tended to break, up to a few times a year, even. Which is why people, tended to rent them (especially when the early colour TVs came out. E.g. Rediffusion).I've had lots of safety advice about crts, drummed into me, over the years.Be careful, they can retain a very high voltage, even after the device has been switched off, for a long timeBe careful, you don't get badly cut by itBe careful, if you drop it, they cost a fortune to replaceBe careful, if you break it, it will effectively write off the TV, as it costs so much to replace a crtBe careful, of the very high voltages, on/near crt tubesBe careful, they give off lots of x-raysBe careful, they can be VERY heavyBe careful, not to burn the phosphor, on the crt oscilloscope, by having a stationary beam, at too high an intensity levelBe careful, not to leave that image (computer/tv/video-games) on the screen too long, else it will burn into the crtBe careful, of highly toxic crtsBe careful, they give off dangerous UV rays (I've seen this, when I've opened up some TV(s), but I think/assume it was a mistake and/or bad foreign language translation)Be careful, only to fit the exact/identical crt model in this deviceBe careful, if you replace this/the crt. The colour convergence will be an impossible nightmare to ever calibrate back into working condition ever again. Without being an expert on TV repair and/or having the right test equipment and/or needing the service manualBe careful, to keep magnets away from the front of the crt. Lest you magnetize the shadow mask, and potentially permanently damage it.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 07:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 12, 2016, 10:08:29 amSounds like Skrillex has a new album out!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 08:57:45 pm
content: Car Electrics (pre-1985), especially the parts which "help" the engine (points/contacts/distribution cap and leads, powering the spark plugs, the spark plugs themselves, starter motor, main battery, lights, etc). From before 1985, especially non-Japanese cars. (Year is extremely approximate and subjective).Because they were (the cars electrics especially, and some of the electronics) notoriously unreliable/problematic/troublesome/fiddly/annoying/untrustworthy/rusty and somewhat poorly designed, as regards reliability/durability/maintainability.Pre-1985, I don't know what was worse for the car. Being made in the UK (e.g. Friday afternoon at Leyland cars), the UK damp/cold/wet, somewhat horrible weather or the fuel shortages (at least threatened, approx 1973/4, after the Oil crisis, with fuel rationing, planned) and/or very high petrol prices and/or power cuts, of that era (pre-1985).I.e. Approx 1960 (earlier if you like) .. 1985 (maybe later as well). Later cars, seemed to generally get better and better, as regards reliability. Especially the electrics.N.B. 1985 is an estimate and could easily be out by a few or more years. My estimate is a guess as to the year, after which, cars became much more reliable. It probably (the exact year) depends on the make of car, as well.tl;drIn the UK, in the middle of Winter in the 1970's. Attempting to start a car on a freezing and very damp/rainy/snowy day, could easily be a significant challenge. Especially if the car was made by British Leyland cars, or probably almost any other UK manufactured car, of that era. (But don't get me wrong. Other cars (non-UK), were probably nearly as bad as well, in that era).

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:13:31 pm
content: FloppiesCRTsZIP DisksVinyl LPsCassettesSCSIIDEPS/2 keyboards/mice

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2016, 08:57:45 pmHere in the US cars started going into the crapper in the mid to late 1960s. Variety of reasons, mostly related to a mismatch between emissions control regulations and the technology available to implement solutions. By the early 1980s a turn around had started, and by the mid-1990s cars were better than they had ever been. You can argue endlessly about specific brands, but to my eye they all followed roughly the same trajectory, though the Japanese brands were generally a few steps up the hill from the others.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:23:29 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 12, 2016, 09:13:31 pmVinyl LPs refuse to die, although sales in 2016 seem to be down a bit from a recent high.seehttp://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/09/20/vinyl-records-drop-9-us-2016/

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:24:32 pm
content: So to add more "products" I am glad are extinct.Vacuum controlled and operated emission control systems.Boom boxes.Time share computing (particularly in its pay per minute format).Punch cards for data and program entry.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:25:36 pm
content: Pink Floyd is spinning right now, love old LPs.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:27:53 pm
content: vacuum tubes. rest in (many) pieces.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:48:36 pm
content: Damn, that reminds me I've got a DAC90 to recap, I wonder if there is anything still of interest at that part of the spectrum.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 10:15:45 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 12, 2016, 09:27:53 pmFor most uses I would agree, but for high-power RF applications they are still more cost effective and robust than solid state.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 10:29:44 pm
content: NMOS, ran as hot a hell and then some when you overclock itPunch Tape, you could edit serial data with a razor blade.Spark transmittersAny Clive Silclair product

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 10:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on December 12, 2016, 09:25:36 pmI too like old vinyl, and new as well, and I like Pink Floyd, even though Nick Mason swore at me a couple of years ago.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 10:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 12, 2016, 09:27:53 pmBoo, hiss, boo!-Pat

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 11:20:08 pm
content: The following "Crt Implosion" demonstration, shows the main two reasons, I was concerned by the earlier advice, to break up the crt, rather than disposing of it properly/safely.(1)...I was worried there could be an implosion and/or glass getting thrown all over the place (as shown in the video). Which might be toxic as well (I'm intentionally leaving out arguments on how toxic it is).(2)...I was worried that someone who is messing around (again shown in the video), might take the earlier advice in this thread. But WITHOUT any precautions, and end up seriously injuring themselves or others.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 11:42:42 pm
content: I have tried to implode CRTs sitting in a dumpster,using a very long section of "star picket",to no avail.Old 110 degree BW tubes like the one in the video normally have an integral heavy glass shield on the front which makes it extremely hard to do this.It seems like this one does not,or has a very inferior one.I once had a bunch of old BW monitors using similar CRTs fall off a trolley onto the driveway at work, several sustaining small cracks to this shield.None imploded,either then,& when deliberately attacked as above in the dumpster.You can do anything if you really try,but it is not an imminent danger whenever people handle CRTs.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 12:15:44 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2016, 08:57:45 pmBrits convinced themselves over many years that they live in a "Temperate" climate,& thus made no effort to design cars which started on cold days.Aussie cars ,on the whole,aren't subject to such climate extremes,but through the USA connection,usually incorporated cold start devices that actually worked.Pommy cars often balked at starting in a Western Australian winter,which seldom goes below 1 degree C.I was in the UK in 1971--we had a Ford Popular.It had nice styling,sidevalve engine,3 speed box,vacuum wipers,lousy fuel consumption---Leyland specs looked really sophisticated in comparison.A 6 volt system did not lend itself to cold starts.Before that,there was an Austin A95--about the same size as my EH Holden,but much heavier,with lousy fuel consumption to match.The Brits didn't seem to be able to make a light six until the Triumph 2000 came out.OK,they were old cars,so I expected better with something newer.At Christmas,1971 I went to Scotland,& hired a car.They normally had VWs but they were all out,so I ended up with a couple of year old Cortina Station wagon (estate).It hated starting,stalled while I was crossing a main Highway,bits fell off the interior trim,so I took it back.They had a VW which had just came in from the road,but wanted to clean it up first.I insisted,& drove out with the muddy "Beetle",took it to the car wash,then drove it all round Scotland for the next week.It never missed a beat!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 12:37:21 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 12, 2016, 11:42:42 pmOne or more of the youtube comments (in the video, I linked to earlier), said similar.That when still cased, those TVs (CRTs), were relatively implosion safe. Because of the extra strong front (case), just like you describe and experienced.I guess I was overly worried, by the earlier suggestions, about breaking up the old crt, earlier in this thread.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 12:50:19 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 13, 2016, 12:15:44 amI'm surprised such a simple car, the Ford Popular, could work out, given its almost total lack of modern day stuff. It hasn't even got an internal heater, but I guess you can dress up warm. Not even a motor for the windscreen wiper (only ONE), using some kind of vacuum thing.The standard equipment on cars, has come a long, long way, these days.E.g. Air-conditioning, use to only appear, on very expensive, very high end cars. Where as, these days, the vast majority of cars, come with air-conditioning (in the UK), as standard.Back on topic:I'm glad that (manual, driver operated) car chokes, have long been obsolete. That's a chore that I'm happy to not have to do, anymore.Also, the early automatic chokes, were (sometimes/usually?) terrible, and also best avoided. As not only can they stall the car, but you can't fiddle with anything, to correct the situation.Modern engine management systems, usually do a very good job, of keeping a car running smoothly, almost all the time, and help keeping them running reliably. But it can cost a small fortune, when it does, eventually (or sooner) break. E.g. O2 (Oxygen sensor failure).

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 01:07:24 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 13, 2016, 12:37:21 amI was taught to wrap the tube in a heavy blanket, place it face down on the ground and break the neck with a baseball bat. Always a satisfying "crack and gasp" and never a mishap.Last council verge collection here I noticed a couple going around attacking CRT's with an axe. They use the axe through the back of the cabinet, deflection coils and tube neck in one swing. They then just reached in the hole and pulled the deflection coils out, leaving a smashed and wrecked TV on the kerb.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 02:30:45 am
content: Quote from: BradC on December 13, 2016, 01:07:24 amI saw a similar (in concept) youtube video, about breadline (whatever the US term is suppose to be) people.In your example, they are risking life and limb + possible toxic waste. Just for the sake of $0.10 (my wild guess) worth of scrap copper.In America, a youtube video, shows some, getting the "free food" (stamps ?) program stuff (what ever it is called in the US), including nice bottles full of milk.You then see them pouring the milk, all over the car park (what a waste!) or down a drain in the car park. Just so they can return the empties for $0.10 (or whatever they get), so that they can buy drinks or similar (and I DON'T mean soft drinks).In some respects, modern life can seem completely crazy.What a waste (the milk), crazy!

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 04:10:05 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 13, 2016, 12:50:19 amO2 sensor is a $30 part and took less time to swap than to check the price.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 04:11:39 am
content: Quote from: BradC on December 13, 2016, 01:07:24 amYou don't even need a bat, the neck is really thin, a small hammer, scrap wood, etc with an easy tap will pop it.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 04:30:05 am
content: Or you could just nip off the exhaust tip (it's in the center of the circle of pins on the base) with a pair of side cutters and wait a few minutes for the hissing to stop.-Pat

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 04:59:07 am
content: Quote from: eugenenine on December 13, 2016, 04:10:05 amMaybe that was not the best of examples then. I've never needed an O2 sensor myself, so was just partially guessing at the price of getting it fixed (I assumed if fitted at a dealership, it would cost a fair bit to get it done. But DIY can be a lot cheaper, of course). But some things can cost a lot of money to get sorted out on a car.Especially when you don't do the stuff yourself, it is an expensive type of car and you end up going to the main dealer to get it sorted out.E.g. If the automatic transmission goes, and you want it sorted out properly and can't/won't do it yourself. It can be uneconomically viable, to get it fixed. Especially for older cars.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 05:05:36 am
content: When part of my job was to change CRTs in computer monitors back in the 70s, I had to wear full protective clothing in case of breakage. For disposal, I had to put the tube face down in its shipping carton and drive a screwdriver down through the closed carton to break the end of the tube neck. Many years later, I had to dispose of a large collection of B/W TVs. By then I'd learnt the easy way: pop out the EHT connector, then drive a bradawl into the connector hole in the tube. It's a small copper "top hat" moulded into the glass and punctures easily. Then yo heave ho into the dumpster.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 11:50:32 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 13, 2016, 04:59:07 amUnless its one of the front wheel drive disposable cars you just swap the transmission with a rebuilt from your favorite auto parts store and move on.Now if you one of those who has to have the iMercedes where you pay the dealer $500 for an oil change, well then you have the $ to pay to fix it anyway.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 04:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on December 13, 2016, 11:50:32 amYou can do, but I've heard that if the replacement rebuilt automatic transmission (in the UK), is cheap, it usually won't last very long. E.g. It fails after 10,000 miles. (Because it was poorly repared, so breaks again, relatively quickly).If you go for a recommended, high quality, rebuilt one, it can easily cost a lot more than the car is worth, on the used market.I'm NOT familiar with the prices, so take my example with a pinch of salt.E.g. £2,000 for a quality (UK) rebuilt automatic transmission. But the second hand used vehicle, is still only worth £1,500. So it is not really economically viable.Fan-fold computer paper(printers), especially very noisy dot-matrix ones, with short life ink ribbonsMechanical wound watches, relatively unreliable, easily broken, very poor time accuracy, and you have to remember to keep on winding them, each dayCheaply made, mechanical wind up toys, which would break extremely easilyMechanical balled mice, the optical equivalents, are much, much better in general

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 06:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 12, 2016, 05:11:21 amIf you wan't to hear one suck for a long time then run a fine PCB drill through the EHT connector socket on the side of the bulb! I suspect that you could use it pull a decent vacuum on a small volume test subject with the right setup. Still the safest way I know to make an old CRT safe - no glass breakage involved.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 09:17:01 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 13, 2016, 04:58:08 pmWrong economic analysis. Try comparing the £2,000 replacement cost with the cost of a replacement vehicle which will have comparable service life. That £1,500 one you get isn't likely to last.The only time your analysis makes sense is if you are still insuring the car against loss, and total it in an accident shortly after the repair. Since it rarely makes sense to insure an older car like that against loss it just doesn't apply.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 10:03:23 pm
content: Distributors and PointsManual Chokes (on cars)Feu Orange air freshener'sVideo cassettesCompact cassettesFloppy DisksDosTab ClearShell SuitsAnalogue cordless phonesAnything made out of AsbestosFax MachinesBumbagsThe list goes on, hope it's not long before that Cult called Apple end up on a list like this.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 10:08:31 pm
content: Quote from: TheBay on December 13, 2016, 10:03:23 pmTelex(My first job was working on Telex data management systems!)

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 10:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 13, 2016, 10:08:31 pmTelex is far from extinct though.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 10:12:46 pm
content: Damn! Baudot still lives!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 10:28:00 pm
content: any kind of combustion engine ( apart from airplane or rocket )

author: denelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 12:12:13 am
content: Quote from: Watth on December 12, 2016, 03:14:15 pmRobertson (square) screws are by far the best.No slippage and the screw stays by itself on the screwdriver at almost any angle.In Canada, "Robertson" screws are very common.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Robertson

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 12:35:59 am
content: Quote from: denelec on December 14, 2016, 12:12:13 amSquare drives are quite nice, we built our fence using them, though around here torx are getting popular.

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 01:08:36 am
content: Hissettes (yes even the chrome ones) and 8-Track tapes respectively..Open coil electric ranges.Kerosene... And whale oil....

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 02:08:13 am
content: Quote from: denelec on December 14, 2016, 12:12:13 amUntil they have been in a few years and you need to take them out, then they slip.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 02:51:35 am
content: Quote from: Karel on December 11, 2016, 10:15:50 pm

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 03:35:38 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 13, 2016, 09:17:01 pmLet's assume that the car still drives, but the automatic box, is beginning to play up. Hence the £2,000 quote for a professional/decent repair.You can take the £2,000and add to that the sale or part exchange value of your existing (faulty) vehicle, which might be £750, i.e. about half of the £1,500 if it was fully working.So you have £2,750 if you sell (or part exchange it) it now and keep the money you could have spent on having the car repaired.So if you can put another £1000 towards your next one.You can start looking at cars for £3,750 and maybe more. Which can then be considerably newer, lower mileage on the clock and maybe better. This should be economically better (in the longer term). Than struggling on with your old, high mileage, only worth at best £1,500 existing car.tl;drYou are better off with a £3,000 or more replacement car (£2000 repair and £750 for the old faulty one), than struggling with a £1,500 old one, with a replacement automatic gearbox, which even from a decent/professional supplier, may still give some trouble, especially in the longer term.But anyway, I fully accept that opinions about cars, and which ones to get. Also when/if to repair rather than replace, can vary a lot. So I'm happy if we disagree.If there was a perfect/agreed solution. We would all probably be driving around in it. Which might get rather tedious and boring.You can have any colour you like as long as it is Black.You can have any type or shape, as long as it is identical to the Ford Model T (in Black).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 05:39:01 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 14, 2016, 03:35:38 amActually I can agree with the analysis above, which is different than your original statement. And given the proviso that the numbers work as you state for the model and year car that you are talking about, which is often true, but not generally true. I also agree that answers vary widely based on many, many factors including the time, equipment and skills available to do repairs yourself, the availability of desired features in newer model cars, and the local market among others.Same thing applies in the world of those on this forum. A piece of electronics gear which is worthless junk to the general public is often an easily repairable treasure to those on this forum.

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2016, 01:25:41 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 12, 2016, 09:13:31 pm

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2016, 05:55:48 pm
content: VHS, anything to do with VHSRS-232. which isn't 100% dead yetCentronicsSCSICarbon resistors74xx series TTLGermanium transistorsDatabooksTube based ham radio rigs, except for the P.A.Analog modemsTicking clocks, I still can't sleep in a room with oneFinally, one that I miss, computer dating before the Internet. Waiting for that printout to arrive by mail with up to half a dozen names on it was a fun time, you never got a picture but you might get an address and/or a phone number, after that it was up to you. The modern sites take all of the excitement out of it.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2016, 06:05:29 pm
content: Not quite:- SCSI -> SAS- POTS modem -> fax machine

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 11:55:18 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 12, 2016, 09:24:32 pmNo, no. In the days of 80 column punch cards I always had a near infinite supply of bookmarks and conveniently sized writing surfaces for shopping lists and 'back of cig packet' calculations. (In practice, the back of a cigarette packet is one of the hardest places to comfortably scribble down calculations.)

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 04:31:53 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on December 21, 2016, 11:55:18 pmYeah, they had lots of secondary uses. Including some of the nicest Christmas star ornaments I have seen. A pretty decent board separator. And a perfect adjustable shim stack for a wobbly desk or table. But I am still glad their primary purpose is gone. Retyping lines until you don't make a mistake since there is no way to backspace or erase. (That is why you had so many cards.) Carting boxes of cards around to get your program to the computer. Dropping said box if you hadn't printed a new and correctly sequence numbered set recently, or didn't have access to an autocollimator.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 03:54:14 am
content: I'm glad I just missed punchcards for any serious work - they year I took the advanced computer class in HS, which taught FORTRAN, was the first year they used Apple II's instead of writing programs on punchcards and sending them to the district mainframe. In college, everything was CRT terminals or PCs, there were a few card readers left for legacy use. On one of the systems I regularly used, the OS was a little late in being updated for CRT - a syntax error on a line resulted in the error message "Error in input card"It was my senior year when the computer operations department released a final warning - all card stacks had to be converted to tape by a certain date as the last card reader was being removed from the data center. I recall the other three they had sitting in a hallway prior to that date.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 04:39:39 am
content: Unix still contains the error message "Not a typewriter", even though teletypewriters have been obsolete for 40 years.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 05:08:13 am
content: Had one of those at my first post-college job, a DECWriter. Hooked to a PDP11/23.Oh heck, we actually had a genuine Teletype (more modern style though) in the computer lab in HS, hooked to one of the Apple II's as a second printing station, They also had an acoustic coupler and a phone - I had nearly a full box of wide green bar paper from connecting to a local BBS. I also played a hell of a trick on a substitute teacher ones. Since it was a Teletype, it had an honest to goodness mechanical bell in it. So I wrote up a quick program to send Control-G to it in the pattern of a ringing telephone. With a nice time delay, and also a cut off after so many rings. Fired it up, and moved my stuff to a different station. A minute later - ring, ring.....ring,ring... sub walks in to the lab, spies the phone on the desk next to the ringing Teletype - picks it up, just as the ring program cuts out. "Hello?" "Hello?" - puts the phone down, goes back out to the desk and sits down. Few minutes later - ring,ring... I was such a little devil

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 08:40:56 am
content: I did work experience for Bull HN (now Honeywell Iirc) and helped service teletype machines but by the time I joined the workforce as a computer systems tech they were all but gone.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 10:53:41 am
content: Quote from: helius on December 24, 2016, 04:39:39 amIn 1976 people were still buying lots of teletypewriters. Many of them were for development work on microprocessors, so it wasn't just for legacy systems. It's more like 35 years since the collapse of the teletypewriter market.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 12:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 22, 2016, 04:31:53 amI used to have to write COBOL programs on punch cards (ICL 1900). Nowthosewere stacks that you didn't want to drop!Nobody's mentioned paper tape yet. Now that was a medium you had to love....- Almose completely immune to data loss. You could visibly see and repair any data corruption (including file fragmentation).- You could make code patches during debug without needing to re-assemble and re-link. I still have the little hand punch that I used to use.- You could make replacement copies standalone on the reader/punch when a tape got too worn.- You could generate Happy Christmas streamers (in characters) using a looped tape - We used to keep some pink and blue tape rolls specifically for that purpose!Best of all, you had those wizzy geared hand would tape spoolers to wind up all your tape off the floor after loading it (assuming nobody had walked through it meantime). It took years for the little shiny area on the side of my index finger to disapear - the one I used for keeping the spool straight as I wound it up again at speed.That's one technology I miss still.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 12:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: rubenvann on December 24, 2016, 11:58:58 amMe too!I've recently found out that the nipple board outputs standard PS/2 data. It also has the three button input signals. I've dug out an old thinkpad keyboard and am planning a nice low profile trackpoint desktop mouse!https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55960.msg1291412#msg1291412https://deskthority.net/wiki/TrackPoint_Hardware

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 03:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: rubenvann on December 24, 2016, 11:58:58 amThats the problem with the trackpoint, the speed doesn't get better. The touchpad you can adjust the speed to where its the size of the screen so wherever you put your finger the mouse will be. Thinkpads tend to attempt to make the touchpad harder to use than other laptop, one that I had from work had all these odd bumps on it.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 07:10:06 pm
content: I hate touchpads with a passion, even the good ones, and keep mine disabled at all times and use an external mouse. Nothing worse than typing in a whole paragraph and then having your thumb come close enough to the touchpad to be registered, now highlighting your entire paragraph so that the next key pressed erases the entire thing. The oddity of when and where the scroll area is also is a huge annoyance. I can't imagine browsing the web or reading forums like this without a scroll wheel mouse.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 08:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on December 24, 2016, 07:10:06 pmThat's one thing I love about MacBooks: The Touchpad! Especially since they went to the "glass" touchpads. They're physically very large, giving you a lot of area to use, scrolling isn't in a special area, but instead is performed with two fingers anywhere on the pad, type protection/thumb guard works perfectly (I've never had the mouse do *anything* while typing), gestures are quick and intuitive and never fail to register...For my money, they have the best trackpads on the market and work better than a real mouse for everything but gaming. It's even easier for me to layout a complex 8 layer board with my touchpad than it is to use a physical mouse. (Though you couldn't pay me to do it with a tiny, shitty ThinkPad trackpad! Though my last ThinkPad was an X210, with the swivel tablet screen. It had a Wacom style pen interface too, which was surprisingly nice to use for layout!)

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 08:35:57 pm
content: I've been using a touchpad since 1998, can't stand an external mouse. Thinkpads and Apples are the worst (and both call it a trackpad instead of a touchpad). Synaptics I prefer over Alps but Alps is pretty much the same now a days. I usually disable the scroll stuff and then turn the speed up so moving the finger from one side of the pad to the other will move the mouse completely from one side to another.I never figured out how peoples thumbs hit the pad but then again I never had a real typing class as my school deemed me "not college material"

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 08:42:06 pm
content: I gave up on normal mice years ago and went to the ergonomic Logitech USB Trackman's like these:So far I've made a few mates see the light too.Now I think the only ones available are NOS or SH as new versions are wireless only:http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/cordless-trackman-optical

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 09:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 24, 2016, 08:42:06 pmI pretty much used those from 1996 when I was 12 and had *my* first PC (as opposed to a shared family machine) until around 2006 when I started using a laptop more than a desktop. I still used a laser mouse for gaming, but those were super nice for everything else, especially CAD work!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 10:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 24, 2016, 09:53:24 pmA lot depends on how you configure them, I've got the scroll wheel button (yes, it's a button too) set to Alt + Left Arrow which is Back in browsers and many other applications and just that alone saves a shite load of dancing all over the screen to hit the Back button.Yeah Tim they're great and I'd replace it in an instant should it get busted or die.But the bits I like the most is NO mouse pad required and you only need the room your hand takes on the bench for them and no more.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 10:08:33 pm
content: Quote from: rubenvann on December 24, 2016, 11:58:58 amMy work laptop is the latest Lenovo X1 Yoga and it has the trackpoint (aka nipple) and its so much better than the trackpad.Apple seems to be the only company on earth that can make a decent trackpad - my wife has a 13" retina MacBook and its trackpad is amazing!

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 11:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 24, 2016, 10:04:25 pmI actually have a essentially brand new wired Logitech with scroll wheel sitting in a box somewhere, if you want it. I bought it in late 2005 to replace a unit I dropped and used it for maybe a month before I got my first MacBook Pro. At that point I started using the touchpad almost exclusively.It's been sitting, sealed in a plastic tub in an air conditioned storage facility, if you want it for a spare.Quote from: djos on December 24, 2016, 10:08:33 pmYes, their touchpads are the best! They become even better when you discover BetterTouchTool, which allows you to implement your own custom gestures! Everything from specific tap patterns to swipes to drawing custom symbols can be setup as gestures that you can map to keyboard shortcuts, actions or scripts. These can be global or on an app by app basis. It's very powerful. Once setup correctly it's hard to go back to anything else!

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 01:41:31 am
content: I suppose trackballs are ergonomic - I jsut get a sore thumb after a long session working with one. My mouse is similarly shaped so it holds my hand at a natural angle, not wierdly flat ont eh desk like an old early style square mouse.I don;t think thumb activation of a touchpad has anything to do with proper typing style - I do not touch type either, which probably means my thumb ends up resting on a track pad MORE than if I typed properly, which would have my thumbs on the space bar, not suspended int eh air over the keyboard. However, in just testing it, at least with the decent sized touchpad on this laptop, my right thumb catches the upper right of the track pad right about the first joint, and my left thumb catches it in the upper left just between the first joint and the base, and if I pause in typing (I think the driver for this has some sort of thumb protection - so while actively typing it doesn't seem to activate, but pause - which I do often, since I don't touch type, and it allows a thumb to count as a touch) I can have the good old click and select.I'm not sure an Apple one would eb any different - this one actually operates the same way, 2 fingers to scroll. That's how little I actually use it, I had no idea it did that. This one does have discrete left and right buttons though, not press the whole pad for a click. Though a tap is a click. I've tried CAD (mechanical style) with it, takes way too long to line things up, a mouse is much more precise. I haven't tried schematic layout, I suspect I'd have the same issue.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 06:02:16 am
content: Quote from: timb on December 24, 2016, 11:28:39 pmThanks Tim, I would be interested. PM me and we'll sort something out.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 06:15:52 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on December 25, 2016, 01:41:31 amTheir greatest feature IMO is they don't need to be moved and support the weight of your arm, therefore your arm is at rest and your fingers and thumb do the work.You can see in this link the different styles, for RH'ed people the ergonomic units with the ball on the LH side are by far the most comfortable to use.http://support.logitech.com/en_us/category/mice-and-pointers#5mainFurthermore the user adjustmentsbeing set right for your use typemake these a joy to use, acceleration, pointer style, scroll lines # and so on. 30 minutes using one and most are converted.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 10:43:52 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on December 25, 2016, 01:41:31 amThe Apple ones are very different. They've spent many years and a lot of money perfecting the technology. They don't just slap in an off the shelf Synaptics IC and call it a day like the majority of PC manufacturers do.A few years back (before they went to multitouch) they were using Cypress PSoC parts as the controllers. They worked very well then, but the "glass" touchpads of today are even better. I'm not sure if they're using newer PSoC parts or an entirely custom IC for them, but it's clear Apple put their experience with the iPhone/iPad back into their touchpads.On my MBP, touching the corners (or anywhere on the pad for that matter) doesn't cause the cursor to fly randomly across the screen, like I've seen so many times with PC trackpads. In fact, nothing I can do will make that happen. Believe me, I spent 20 minutes tonight trying to make it happen. I even went so far as to place little droplets of water on the pad, something that makes my X210's trackpad go crazy!Quote from: tautech on December 25, 2016, 06:02:16 amOkay, let me dig it up. It'll be at least a week, holidays and all.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 10:57:54 am
content: Quote from: djos on December 24, 2016, 08:40:56 amIn about '85 I worked in a company that built computers - this was just before the PC-compatible took over. We bought some auto-insertion machines for pcb assembly - and even then, they took their programs on punched tape. The operators had an actual ASR33 to cut the tapes on. I got a nice Facit tape punch from a surplus dealer and drove it from one of our own computers. Far more satisfactory.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 11:31:18 am
content: Vacuum tubes are far from extinct.They remained at large at the basement of TV and Radio broadcasting towers; X-ray machines; detect gamma radiation, conduct sensitive physics experiments and many other places where one needs a cheap way to accelerate electrons (at high voltage, high power, high anything...)... Albeit the driving electronics have long been replaced by solid state devices.One which should be dead (but isn't) is GPIB/HPIB. C'mon - had the HP82357B not been 700$ from Keysight, every device would have long since been converted to USB by now... Maybe the pricing is a ploy to get people to upgrade their DMM rather than convert to USB?Wow & Flutter cassettes (with the strobe effect). Rest in pieces. Tape head demagnetizers and cleaning sticks. Rest in even more pieces.Dot matrix printers (and low end daisy wheel) with their awfully rickety sound and awful print quality - may you rest in 16 pieces like your DPI resolution.Hercules graphics card. The last card where 74LS logic ruled. Rest with the versions of OrCAD that supported you and the 74LS family that littered your board.Large cell phones. Like the old Nokias. My current phone (actually an Apple computer with a mediocre phone app preinstalled on it) is as big as you but can do a lot more. Now the fact I don't do any of these things it can do is beside the point. It CAN do what you couldn't.Mice with real balls. Balls cause distractions. Castrated mice are better. Cause they never get distracted - cause they are ball-less. I know what I am talking about because I also get distracted easily....I had one more but I forgot it...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 12:01:10 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on December 25, 2016, 11:31:18 amStill around, and you can buy new ones from OKI and EPSON for example.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 12:28:17 pm
content: I actually miss dot matrix printers but only because of their ability to output on fanfold paper. If you have a program a thousand lines long then it's not as easy to see the program flow if it's printed on A4. Joining the sheets is always an option I suppose but it seems like cheating.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 12:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on December 25, 2016, 12:28:17 pmPrinting on continuous fan fold and multi-part paper is the main reason there is still a substantial market for cheap reliable dot matrix printers. Because they only sell into those markets which really need them, they aren't broadly marketed, and most people don't notice they are still being produced. A lot of products are like that. People think they have gone when they don't see them in mainstream use, yet they are still out there somewhere doing useful work.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 01:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 25, 2016, 12:34:26 pmTrue - I kind of ignored the noisy one down at the car rental places (that print the agreement in triplets). Or the insurance dealers, or the DMV. I always assumed they were daisy wheel (for speed) but I know some are indeed dot matrix.Source code and logs are indeed a good place for dot matrix in the home. But I just read it on a very high resolution screen....

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 02:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 25, 2016, 10:43:52 amI would humbly suggest not doing that; while the MBP trackpad is normally very reliable, it IS vulnerable (in my experience) to moisture getting inside it. I had to use Mouse Keys for a week and wipe with IPA until it dried out inside.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 03:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on December 25, 2016, 01:41:31 amThe problem with the trackball is still speed, moving from one side of the screen to another takes too long, worsened with todays UI's where everything is spread out. I can't stand to use anything else, lifting my hands off the keyboard to reach over for a mouse/trackball/whatever then I have to move back to the keyboard and find where I was. Todays spell check as you type throws me off too, when I stop mid sentence to correct the mistake I loose my train of thought.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 05:39:25 pm
content: Still have them, and they are great for doing multipart invoices on preprinted paper. Where else do you get a printer that will run for around 6 months on a single ribbon, and where a new one costs $20 to do another 2000 pages again. The paper is also a bit cheaper than copier paper, and you never accidentally send the wrong invoice to the customer because the second page was swapped with the first, and the window envelope thus was blank, or you mixed up parts of 2 invoices, as they are one long page.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 06:24:39 pm
content: Don't see anyone complaining about the film in photography ... simply dark ages compared to current digital camera.Really, I don't miss them at all, the annoying 36 exposures limit, and not to mention no instant result.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 07:15:28 pm
content: You know, I still have a thermal fax at work, that I pretty much only use as a phone. It has been useful though to test other fax machines, so as to isolate the location of a "I cannot send you's a fax" to being our side, the sender's side or time to call the local telco to fix the line. most of the time either no paper in the receiving one ( because apparently it is too difficult to put paper in when you use the last page), the toner is finished ( same flashing red light, but DFU are unable to read the backlit LCD display right there, saying "FAX BROKEN DON'T KNOW WHY AT ALL URGENT THAT YOU ATTEND TO FIX IT RIGHT NOW IMMEDIATELY I HAVE IMPORTANT STUFF TO DO WITH IT" btw they have already gone home when I come 2 minutes later) or they have tried to fax a page still wet with correction fluid.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 07:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 25, 2016, 06:24:39 pmI really miss the 35mm film cans that they came in though!Nobody else got any Paper Tape stories?

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 07:36:44 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 25, 2016, 06:24:39 pmAnd cost. Even if it was $5 to develop a roll of 36, I've taken thousands of pictures, it would have cost thousands of $.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 07:52:52 pm
content: Quote from: helius on December 25, 2016, 02:52:29 pmIt was just a few small drops in the center, I wouldn't be crazy enough to do it around the edges!Be careful with the IPA though; I ruined a MacBook Air's keyboard after cleaning it with a soft cloth sprayed with IPA! Nearest I can figure there was too much on the rag and some of it got inside the keys and somehow messed it up...The top row of keys stopped working and I couldn't fix it no matter what I did. I tried (filtered) compressed air, setting the unit itself on a PCB pre-heater (set to 60c) overnight. Nothing worked!Finally I ordered a replacement keyboard from China. What a pain in the ass that is to replace. There's literally hundreds of tiny screws holding it to the unibody frame!

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 10:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 25, 2016, 06:24:39 pmNot to mention getting about 10 good photos out of 36... Or was that just me?

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 10:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on December 25, 2016, 07:36:44 pmIt was about $30 dollars a roll Iirc including printing photos (in Adelaide).

author: Silveruser
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 01:34:02 am
content: Film is far from extinct. Still lots in use. Okay some are gone but B&W is doing just fine and colour not to far behind. I still have a working darkroom with loads of gear available second hand at bargin prices.Re paper tape don't forget the ASCII art either. The only centerfold on my dad's wall was printed on a Model 28 teletype!

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 01:40:08 am
content: Quote from: Silveruser on December 26, 2016, 01:34:02 amTell that to Kodak!

author: Silveruser
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 01:52:36 am
content: Quote from: djos on December 26, 2016, 01:40:08 amBelieve or not Kodak is still making film, mostly for the movie industry and a tiny bit for stills. Okay they are a shadow of what they used to be but some still prefer film. Ilford in the UK is doing fine, Fuji keeps dropping products and Impossible is trying to bring back poloroid.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 01:55:58 am
content: Yes they are still around but only after going thru bankruptcy first.https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2012/01/18/how-kodak-failed/?client=safariThe irony is they were killed by the very technology they invented, digital imaging.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 06:54:06 am
content: No, they were killed because they could not embrace digital imaging, believing that film was the only thing, and that this faster, cheaper and more importantly instant electronic imaging was any good. A clue was the massive popularity of instant film, even if it was inferior in so many ways and a lot more cumbersome, but the instant result was a game changer.They could not imagine the same applied to a non film image, even if the had developed both the imager and the digital film printer.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 07:39:51 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 25, 2016, 12:34:26 pmIs there any reason it has to be dot matrix? I could imagine that inkjet (which has plenty of its own issues...) or even laser printers could possibly be designed that way.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 07:54:17 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 26, 2016, 06:54:06 amMy point was, they developed the digital film technology and then utterly failed to capitalise on it. The reason being the film business had a strangle hold on the organisation and wouldn't allow the digital business to compete for fear it would cannibalize their film business.What they didn't count on was other companies using digital imaging technology to cannibalize their market. It's happened before with Xerox who saw them selves as a copier company and actually licenced their Alto GUI technology to Apple (contrary to popular myth they didn't steal anything).

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 12:12:29 pm
content: Was it not that Kodak developed digital photography for its spy satellite division. But failed though bad management and fear of upsetting their government paymasters to take advantage of their huge head start once the technology started to reach consumer level.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 02:16:53 pm
content: I remember their digital cameras, they had that EZ-share flop. It was a proprietary connector so you had to carry around a dock for your camera.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 06:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: djos on December 26, 2016, 07:54:17 amUt•ter•ly, adv. (1.) Completely and absolutely; without qualificationKodak shipped digital cameras before other companies, including the first digital SLR, theDCS.QuoteIf you want to debunk "myths", you need references. No such license occurred, andXerox sued for copyright infringement.The case was dismissed on procedural grounds, not because the technology had ever been licensed.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 08:42:17 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 26, 2016, 07:39:51 amMy HP Deskjet 690c could print on fanfold paper. The only stupid thing was that it couldn't use the typical continuous feed paper with transport strips on the side, it was too wide. The manual suggested to just remove the transport strips... Good luck doing that without messing up.Carbon copy is of course not really possible, that requires pressure.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 08:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 26, 2016, 06:54:06 amThis is nonsense. In 1993 Kodak hired George Fisher as their new CEO. He was previously head of Motorola, and a long time electronics industry veteran. Kodak knew their future lay in electronic imaging, and not in film. They had seen the improving results of compact inexpensive video cameras, and could see that still images would also succumb to electronic techniques. They invested a lot in electronic imaging, producing a line of cameras and a substantial sensor business.Most businesses, whether they see the writing on the wall or not, fail to turn a big ship around when there is a major technology change. Kodak was no different.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 26, 2016, 08:54:28 pmYes, but Kodak's core competency was as a chemical company (specializing in film chemicals). They should have stuck with that or committed to digital. Instead they tried to straddle the line. Advantix is proof they had no idea what they were doing.Sure, they released some of the first digital cameras. In the early 90's. When the technology was so expensive as to not be viable for the vast majority of consumers (remember how much memory cost back then; flash was still in its infancy).When those didn't sell well, management took it as proof that digital was a fad and instead invented a new, inferior film format (Advantix).George Fischer didn't last more than 5 years. They went through strings of CEOs from the mid-80's right until the end. They each lasted an average of 3 years!Basically, they should have kept riding the wave of film sales, while tirelessly working to push the digital state of the art. Then, in the late 90's they could have unveiled a line of really great digital cameras.Instead, they completely missed the boat.Think about it. The technology wasn't there until 2000, at least. Even then, it was still clunky.I owned a Kodak DCS-something in late 1999. It was horrible. It only ran on AA alkaline batteries and even then you only got about an hour out of them. CF memory was ludicrously expensive still as well, so you couldn't take many pictures before you had to download them. Over USB 1.1 which was agonizingly slow. The build quality was absolute shit, too.My next camera was a Sony Mavica with the floppy drive in late 2000. At least that got much better battery life and had a LiIon battery. Prices for Memory Sticks were actually cheaper than CF and you could use a floppy in a pinch. Still USB 1.1 though.By 2005 Memory prices had bottomed out and picture quality and resolution had greatly improved. USB 2.0 had gained mass adoption by that point as well, which made it quick to download your photos.So, Kodak was about 10 years ahead of the curve...

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:03:20 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 26, 2016, 11:07:47 pmYeah but now I delete the crap ones on the fly

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:14:42 am
content: Parallel ATA and bloody Master/Slave/Cable Select jumper settings.I don't know how many times I've forgotten to change jumpers or needed to change a device from one channel to another and not being able to reach the jumpers because the device is too close to the power supply or buried under a mess of cables. Then if you do manage to get the jumper out of the device using pliers or tweezers (or just a flat blade screw driver), you end up dropping it somewhere inside the chassis anyway.Even if you do manage to retain the jumper, you then have to work out which pins are what, because Murphy's law says you won't be able to read the label.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 05:23:34 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 26, 2016, 11:43:51 pmI predict Microsoft to be the next to take a dive.It has developed the same "Do it our way,or not at all!" attitude that characterised Kodak & Philips.Kodak were on the downslope way before digital------they continued to produce cameras which were obsolete compared to the more modern SLRs from Japanese ,European,& even USA competitors.They also published books which extolled Kodachrome & Ektachrome.Kodachrome was sensitive to UV,requiring the use of UV filters on the lens.My Minolta had a "roll off"in lightmeter sensitivity at that end of the spectrum,resulting in over exposed purple skies on overcast days.Other film brands did not have this problem.Ektachrome was expensive to buy & to process,but was fast--nearly as fast as the much cheaper Ansco.Philips delighted in special assemblies that nobody else used,so you often had to get the exact bit to fix an everyday fault.Modular construction with multiple sub-PCBs all over the place,with subsequent poor connections.Components unidentified other than by numbers---Is 92345 a resistor,or a capacitor?They could see that other companies did things differently for better results,but they didn't have it in them to change!Microsoft is pushing W10,"the cloud",rental software ,their own hardware,& so on---AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:09:04 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2016, 05:23:34 amI don't know. Don't forget that Apple have behaved this way for quite a while and look where it's got them. The Apple iPhone/IOS has enjoyed <20% market share in mobile devices for many years.People are becoming increasingly sick of the way Apple do things and I'll admit, Microsoft isn't far behind. However we'll see Microsoft products for a long time to come. I was recently involved in a Government trial of various operating systems and applications to replace an ageing 'Wintel' installation. Among the tenders involved Microsoft, IBM, Google and others. Apple didn't even get considered after the initial cull simply because it couldn't compare to security and mobility requirements (especially in protected and higher classified networks).As much as I hate Windows 10 (for fucks sake, they are called "applications" or "programs" not "apps"), unfortunately it'll become the new norm. I for one am resisting change at home. I still run Windows XP and Windows 7 and both do a fantastic job. Even IE11 still supports 99% of the web pages I visit.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 04:22:44 am
content: People have been predicting the demise of Microsoft for 20 years now. The problem is NOT that they have an "our way or the highway" attitude - it's that they DON'T have enough of that. So you get every possible piece of crap hardware trying to run Windows and when it fails the crappy hardware vendor never gets the blame, Microsoft does.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 07:45:56 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2016, 05:23:34 amHuh? Are you talking about the Ballmer days? If so then you are right. But that is why Microsoft's board replaced Ballmer with Satya Nadella:Support for open source (both within the OS and contributing to OS - e.g. .Net which isn't perfect).OnSite and Cloud "rental" options and mobility between them (standalone OS, Office 360, and Azure as well as an IOT OS which is far from perfect; continuum - the only reason I am actually considering ditching Apple for Nokia).Very clear focus on enterprise apps (like the fast rising Dynamics On Premise and Online - and the various form of Exchange).New Hardware strategies (like the Surface lines) - MS copied some of what Apple did - But now Apple has to respond adequately to MS Surface.Having used both - MS did a lot of homework between the awful Surface 1 and the well executed Surface 3 device - with the standard pitfalls one expects from top end 2016 era devices: like impossible to replace batteries, exceptionally difficult to fix, etc.Stores and consumer marketing - Copied directly (and a well executed copy) of Apple's playbook.Native! Native! Windows 10 support for Docker - want Nginx running within an Ubuntu box - in a few minutes (or seconds?)? Nginx too easy? What about Elasticsearch?? And it works really really well.None of the above is perfect. Unlike Linux which is 100% perfect because it is free (and open source, and cool, and...). But it doesn't always work (see Raspbian Jessie with the GPIB support for HP82357B - some sort of Kernel timing problem) - and yet again RPi3 with Jessie is ~35-40$ - can't fault it even if it doesn't work. Linux is perfect.But Microsoft - as a paid and supported alternative platform (to perfect Linux) is building an interesting strategy - and saying that their strategy is stuck in a "walled" anything is disregarding what they are doing. I almost sound like a Microsoft groupie (which I am not - I think almost all electronics suck big time - very few perfect devices exist - if at all).You can bet on them being fully successful in their strategy, being partially successful, or completely failing on their strategy - that is true almost always. I'll bet my tuppence on them being partially successful.(NB - Do all electronics products suck big time? Probably not - I can invalidate that reasoning by thinking of at least one that doesn't - Is there one? Variable speed "electronic" drills pops to mind. Metcal soldering Irons - albeit being a bit too complex. Operational Amplifiers are possibly the greatest...)

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 08:32:54 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on December 28, 2016, 04:22:44 amHow very true. Sony is probably the best example of a product maker that gives technology like Microsoft a bad rep. Here are a few examples:Memory Stick. Memory Stick Pro. Memory Stick Duo. etc. - Every device used a different memory stick (even if the shape was similar). Investment (they were expensive!) in any stick meant you had to reinvest when you bought the next product. Compare to SD cards: There are two sizes to SD cards and an adapter between the two.Driver support for Laptops and All-in-ones - Sony have to change the Driver ID for generic stuff (like Nvidia cards). One has to surgically implant vendor ID in driver upgrades to support new OS. Compare to Lenovo's update till it dies from exhaustion policy. Note: I am not talking about discontinued driver support from hardware manufacturers - nothing Sony nor Lenovo can do there. I am talking about supported devices like Nvidia cards no longer supported because of Sony product policy.Internal battles: MiniDisc was a great product. It was crippled so much that only reporters were able to use it as planned. It was part of the battle between Sony Music and Sony Electronics. Users got a great product - but crippled (how many times did I copy my own recording???).Competition: NetMD predated iTunes by 10 years. Being Sony, they were tough on Universal and others which avoided playing in Sony's walled garden. Same for SACD which was the best audio format to date (albeit 192/24 is pretty damn close).Bait-n-switch: The best example of that is Sony discontinuing support for Linux on PS3. Not that it was as useful many of us had expected (Since Sony disabled all the great hardware acceleration that made the PS3 great) - but still. Disabling a feature that was sold as a benefit to users - that is very bait-n-switch.I have not bought a Sony product in 10 years and they will have to come up with something stellar for me to even consider using them. And I buy stuff from pimpled, pie-in-the-sky makers on Kickstarter (once in a while). How sad that I prefer to fund a project that is bound to fail rather than buy from Sony...

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 05:46:25 pm
content: Sd actually has three sizes, normal, mini and micro. You don't see many mni around, I have a Spectec miniWifi from my old windows phone but thats the only mini side I ever bought.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 08:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on December 28, 2016, 05:46:25 pmIn fairness though they were only on the market for 4 years (2004 is when they first started coming out; production was stopped in 2008) and it was only really viable for about a year, as microSD came out in 2005!The only products I ever saw using miniSD were cell phones and only for about a year, after which microSD replaced them.It was really a weird bastard form factor that never should have been (but in reality was a stopgap to compete with XDHC or whatever).

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 10:13:20 am
content: Quote from: timb on December 28, 2016, 08:31:40 pmQuite a few digital cameras used it IIRC (some of the Fuji 'bridge' cameras) and I'm sure I've seen it used in servers or SAN/NAS kit too.Shortlived form but if you've got one of the servers/SANs in production use...

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 11:07:06 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 11, 2016, 12:14:19 pmThis one caught my attention, DRM removal from any media is as easy as pressing a button on the screen. All the other protections are much more involved and requires rewrite of some parts of the software to work properly.I do not encourage anyone to do DRM removal or other cracking, I rather purchase DRM free media as the whole DRM or copy protection business is just an annoyance which removes convenience and I hope it dies soon. :-)Edit: I will be happy when DRM and other copy protection will be extinct.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 04:59:52 pm
content: Bought quite a few small ( 512M) mini SD cards, and have a old Nokia phone which also uses one, a whole 32M, which came with the phone. I sent a few off to somebody looking for them, as he uses them on an older camera, and the camera you are comfortable with is the camera you use the most, and the camera you take with you. AFAIK he is happy with them, and I did not have a use for them after using one, as I bought 10 for $5.

author: alex.frank
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 15, 2017, 06:36:27 am
content: I used to think vinyl will be extinct in 20 next years. However, when I read this article What are thehttps://www.musicinstrumentscenter.com/what-are-the-beautiful-secrets-behind-the-vinyl-records/I must stop thinking about this

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 01:05:56 am
content: I actually worked as a service engineer for Kodak in the late 1970s to early 1980s, in the "professional" division: X-Rays, Storage, Publishing, Film developing, Medical and Office Imaging.I can tell you, they were very advanced in electronics. Their professional equipment were an engineering marvel, and a clever marriage of mechanical/ electronic systems.Kodak had a slew of mechanical and electronic wizards working for the company. However, my take is that the chemists in Rochester were the real gods. Everything revolved about the single minded mission of actually exposing a chemical film.The pinnacle of all this engineering wizardy were the Komstar mainframe microfiche printers. It used a laser which was modulated via a quartz glass, itself driven by RF frequencies, to write the characters into a microfiche.I had already quit Kodak by the time digital photography was developed -pun intended.But from what I witnessed, there is no doubt in my mind that the film division severely curtailed its marketing.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 03:11:22 am
content: Quote from: alex.frank on July 15, 2017, 06:36:27 amThere are still plenty of records still being made. Even new releases still. I know the video game The Last Guardian has a soundtrack on vinyl, and that was released December last year. I think they do it just so they can have a big sleave and cover it with all kinds of fancy artwork.People go and get record players just to listen to new stuff on vinyl. I would record them to the computer immediately though just for backup since records can degrade being mechanical.I wonder if people still bootleg/pirate vinyl records.EDIT: 555th post