Need desoldering equipment advice  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 05:36:34 am
content: I've had to desolder on occasion and I've been using solder wick and a manual solder vacuum. It worked great until I started working on older video game consoles with large pin connectors. I should mention that I have somewhat limited dexterity in one hand, so desoldering this way has been challenging and even more challenging when desoldering older equipment.I've been getting concerned about the length of time required to desolder larger components this way. Is there a better way or am I going to need something like the Hakko FR-300 or ZD-985? The one thing that's been making me hesitant to pull the trigger on either solution is the cost for how little I seem to desolder things (but like I said, the things I do desolder tend to be larger components). I did think about Chipquik, but I think the dexterity issue along with the size of components would make even that difficult or expensive very quick.Does anyone have any advice?EDIT:The main reason is I'm looking for advice as to which equipment would make it easier to desolder/rework through hole components despite physical limitations. I only really have heard about the ZD-985 and Hakko 808/FR-300. Currently I use a Hakko FX-888D soldering station with T18-D16, T18-D32 and T18-S4 tips along with a manual solder pump and Chemtronics desoldering braid. I have a YouYue 858D+ hot air rework station for SMD soldering and rework.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 06:42:37 am
content: The FR-300 or ZD-985 are for thru-hole pins. If you can't clear a pin manually in less than 10 seconds, it will be less risky to use a desoldering gun.You know how after manually desoldering a pin, you have to push on it to break the residual solder inside the hole? With a simple technique, the desoldering gun cando that for you.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 06:51:21 am
content: That's what's pushing me towards getting a desoldering gun. I last worked on a NES front loader. It took several hours to get the expansion port out because of the oxidation and everything. After adding flux and extra solder didn't work, I had to slightly pull up part of the connector to clip the pins. Ended up totally destroying the port (which I didn't need), but not sure if I did lasting damage to the board with all the heat. It didn't look like I lifted any pads.

author: vealmike
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 08:14:23 am
content: In my experience desolder stations aren't useful. If we're talking about the hollow tipped soldering bit, with vacuum then they're pretty useless.The problem is that when you turn the air pump on, cool air is drawn through the solder tip and the solder solidifies.If we count BGAs and CGAs out as not hand reworkable, there should be nothing you can not unsolder with a decent iron, wick and a hand pump.Many engineers struggle with inadequate irons. If you can afford it get a good iron from JBC or Metcal. If you can't afford it, know that this is what you need to fix your issues. JBC are the best, really fast, really powerful and excellent temperature control.If buying second hand, be aware that older irons had a lower working temperature. Lead free solder melts at a higher temp and needed new irons.If you're having difficulties, step 1 is to improve your technique. For through hole pins, when most of the solder is gone, place the iron tip on both via and pin until the solder melts, then move the tip to the pin only and waggle the pin with the tip to break the joint.Step 2,consider destructive means. Cut the leg of the thing you are desoldering. Removing the thermal mass of the component makes it easier to get up to temperature. It also means you can push through hole pins out one by one with your iron tip rather than having to free the whole component before things move.Components can be replaced. If the PCB was replaceable, why are you repairing it?Step 3, when working with lead free is to gradually replace the lead free with leaded solder. Apply heat, remove what solder you can. Apply leaded solder, remove solder, repeat. As the two solders mix, the melting point drops and the job becomes easier.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 08:34:56 am
content: QuoteYou must have not used one of these.80% is technique, the other %80 is equipment.I've desolder with solder wick and hand pump and it always felt like a chore.I got one of these and it's so much easier, even enjoyable.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 10:33:21 am
content: Quote from: vealmike on January 19, 2017, 08:14:23 amThat is one thing I did try at first was to see if my technique could be improved. My desoldering technique definitely could be improved, but I do not have enough control of my left hand to improve it much more. Thus, the less I have to use my left hand for this, the better. I don't know my left hand will ever be useful enough to either hold the iron in tight spaces nor use solder wick or even a manual solder vacuum well. I have been using a Hakko FX-888D with a variety of tips for both soldering and desoldering through hole parts. I also have a YouYue 858D hot air rework station for some rework and soldering.One of the things I happen to be into is modifying old video game consoles which tend to have large pin connectors that I would like to salvage since they're pretty expensive on the aftermarket.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 11:41:08 am
content: i suspect what you need is1) good quality solder wick (chemtronics / loctite)2) a decent iron. i've heard good things about these cheap aliexpress irons that take T12 hakko tipshttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/138x88x38mm-Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-EU-Plug-Temperature-180-435-Degrees-T12-Handle/32692999653.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.9XfGNr3) Genuine iron tip that matches what you are doing.

author: cyr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 11:42:43 am
content: Quote from: vealmike on January 19, 2017, 08:14:23 amFWIW, my experience is the opposite. I've always found those manual desoldering pumps to be next to useless, but the old Hakko 470 I got off ebay a while back has been an absolute joy to use.Granted I don't desolder through hole stuff very often, maybe clogging is a problem if you do hundreds of pins every day.

author: cheeseit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 01:09:17 pm
content: I've been using manual pump and solder wick for years but got a ZD-985 a month ago. While pump and wick usually works reasonable well the desoldering station has made the task a joy. It is just so much easier, safer and enjoyable that I regret not getting it years ago. I've used it for many hours since getting it and have not have any problems using it whatsoever. No clogging, no pads sucked off or anything burned - it just works and makes removing large connectors and other high pincount items real easy. I highly recommend getting one.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 02:34:50 pm
content: I guess I should make it a bit clearer in the first post as to why I'm looking for advice. The main reason is I'm looking for advice as to which equipment would make it easier to desolder/rework through hole components despite physical limitations. I only really have heard about the ZD-985 and Hakko 808/FR-300

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 02:45:36 pm
content: Quote from: cheeseit on January 19, 2017, 01:09:17 pmDoes it work as well as it did in Dave's review once he fixed the wiring issue his unit had? I see it's about $100 USD cheaper than the Hakko FR-300 option.

author: KD0CAC John
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 03:02:17 pm
content: I have several desoldering tools , there are always in almost any repair bench a need for multiple types to do general work .For just the type of work your mentioning - through hole , an older Metcal power supply , the DS1 [ make sure you get the matching connector , then using shop air to the gun , it makes a vacuum .This is one of the beast for several reasons , you can find the gun for $75 - $150 , power supply for about the same and using shop air [ compressor ] you get the performance at low cost .I also have JBC Micro 360 unit - pencil , power supply & vacuum pump , but for a great price NIB on eBay for about $450 - this I use the most , because now days most of the stuff I work on is smaller , by the way they have tips with a notch for removing most of the solder for SMD work .Also have a couple of hot air stations , sometime use multiples at the same time , also forgot the hot plate method - preheating .

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 10:47:39 pm
content: My 2 cents: yes, a desoldering gun is likely to make your desoldering much faster and much much easier, especially if you have only one good hand.I have been using wick and solder suckers and a Metcal iron for a while and yes, desoldering lots of pins is possible, but it requires time, a very good technique and the occasional problem (solder splash, glue...) because, well, most of us do not have a perfect technique.I recently got a good price on a Metcal DS-1 and oh-boy is this thing simple to use. Push head against solder, wait for solder to melt, press trigger, wiggle the pin, release trigger. Total time 3-5s per pin and a 100% clean and easy job. All with one hand no real difficulty. These things do clog, but mostly because of bad technique (i.e. releasing the trigger while solder is still being sucked in).So, if you have the money, I would say that a desoldering gun is a good investment, especially in your case. I almost got a FR300 before finding the Metcal. It seems to be a great all-in-one gun that should work for you. If you're patient, you can get really good prices by waiting for a 25% or 30% sale on Zoro, otherwise get one at tequipment.net with the Eevblog discount.The Metcal is great, but it requires a Metcal power supply and shop air (I use CO2, it's easier for occasional use), so unless you're ready to hunt EBay for good used ones (or want to switch your soldering station to a Metcal), the Hakko or its older brother the 808 are probably the best deal.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 11:51:16 pm
content: I keep hearing about the Metcal. Unfortunately it seems a bit pricey for me and I don't have access to such an air supply since I live in an apartment. That may be something for me to consider when I get a house in a few years.

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 01:18:32 am
content: Quote from: Quatrerwin on January 19, 2017, 11:51:16 pmI agree. The Metcal makes sense only if you move your main soldering equipment to Metcal (which is very expensive new, but there is a vast second-hand market for Metcal in the US as these are indestructible and widely used in production).As for air, there are cheap compressors (mostly airbrush compressors) that would do the job. In my case, I didn't want to deal with the noise and I am using cheap CO2 paintball bottles with a pressure regulator. Works like a charm (I learnt about the CO2 option from the guys doing engraving using pneumatic engravers - they use CO2 as a portable source of compressed gas when they are offsite).

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 02:14:56 am
content: Quote from: LaurentR on January 20, 2017, 01:18:32 amI make and keg my own beer as well, so I could use one of my 5 or 10 pound carbon dioxide tanks as a gas supply if I do go that route in the future.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 07:10:39 am
content: Quote from: Quatrerwin on January 19, 2017, 11:51:16 pmThere is also the metcal mfr 1351, with built in vacuum pump

author: cheeseit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 06:25:13 pm
content: Quote from: Quatrerwin on January 19, 2017, 02:45:36 pmFirst, I was on the road when I replied and got the models mixed up and mine is the ZD-915. That may or may not be of importance but sorry for the mix up.If you're still interested, I watched the review long time ago and just skimmed through it now but I would give the one I have thumbs up. The chamber in the gun assembly is a little different on mine in that the spiral thing is only a loosely wound spring that is pressing against a small piece of metal that then pushes against the filter. I believe that the chamber on mine holds a bit more this way and I have filled it entirely without noticing any drop in suction. Other than that I think the difference is cosmetic.The only issue was that fan noise was annoying but I fixed that by removing the grill and dropping the voltage to the fan from 18V to 12V. You may have seen it but someone did a teardown of ithere. He is somewhat positive but less so than me. Mine too came with three nozzles and filters and my Hakko 191 thermometer is in agreement with the thermocouples on my meters and all are within a few degrees from the set temperature. Sure ground planes need more time and/or higher temperature but it works perfectly fine.One of the first real jobs I used it for were moving a DB15 connector from a graphics card to an instrument and while possible with manual sucker and wick, it is no where near as easy (or as fast) as with a desoldering gun, especially on plated holes with tight tolerance and lead free solder.I'm more or less sure that a Metcal or Hakko is better so if you can afford it, go for it. If not just go for what you can afford, I'm pretty sure you won't regret getting one, especially considering your hand.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 08:25:33 pm
content: I was thinking the Metcal options were a bit out of my price range, but the FR-300 and ZD-915/985 were more in the range due to the relative infrequency of my desoldering needs (but like I said, the components can be large, pretty old, and I would like to be able to salvage them). I've been reading about some issues with the FR-300 in its thread, but haven't read too much on the ZD-915/985 models. I'll have to read more on them and if anyone has used both the FR-300 and the ZD-985 (or ZD-915) to see how they compare since there is a fairly large price difference between the two.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2017, 04:19:58 pm
content: I have a Hakko 470 and a Metcal MX-DS1 (the compressed air powered one). The Hakko is very good, but the Metcal is far superior. Its tip just never clogs. The collection chamber is simpler and easier to clean that any other... if you have a paper chamber liner pre-folded, you can swap a full one for the new one in just a few seconds, and get back to work. The suction is powerful and quick, since the vacuum is generated in the handle just inches from the tip, rather than at the end of a 6 foot long hose that must be depressurized each time you pull the trigger. When you add all that to Metcal's well-known thermal capacity, the resulting tool is just fantastic.

author: Nprod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2017, 06:18:59 pm
content: Hey all, i have one of these cheaper solutions where you use a rubber bulb instead of a vacuum pump to such the solder out:Is a soldering gun any better compared to that? I know you can attach a vaccuum pump to one of these, but was never sure if it's really worth it. The whole hollow-tip approach seems like a solution mostly for through-hole pins, not SMD boards.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 05:13:34 am
content: Comparing that thing to a good vacuum desoldering gun is kind of like comparing a blowgun to an assault rifle.Using a tip with grooves, SMD pads can easily be cleaned of solder also. Pace and Ersa both have some vids of this on YouTube I believe.

author: Melt-O-Tronic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 06:13:38 am
content: I finally gave in and got a Hakko FR-300 about a year and a half ago. OH! the time I wasted with solder suckers & braid over the years!I am madly in love with the FR-300. I read for a long time about the agony of unclogging but that only makes me appreciate it more as I zip through HUNDREDS of parts between cleaning sessions and the few clogs I've encountered were quickly and easily cleared.It's really amazing to desolder 40 pin DIP sockets and multi-pin connectors and have them just drop free 90% of the time.In my opinion, if desoldering is important enough that you're asking the question, then you need an FR-300 or something comparable.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 09:05:58 pm
content: QuoteNot bad. Probably almost as good as a solder sucker.Right equipment (all solder suckers are not equal) and proper technique is all it takes.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 11:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on January 24, 2017, 09:05:58 pmAny recommendation for a solder sucker?

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2017, 05:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: Quatrerwin on January 24, 2017, 11:00:28 pmPlenty of threads on this, including this active thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/engineer-ss-02-soldering-review-awful-service-customer/Trying to summarize, most people on this forum seem to gravitate to either:* The tried-and-true Edsyn Soldapullt (or a variant)http://www.edsyn.com/product/DS017.html* The Engineer SS-02. I use this one. The pump action is nice and smooth and I find the silicone tip to be invaluable to make a nice seal. I am using it a whole lot less since I bought the desoldering gun :-)https://www.adafruit.com/products/1597

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2017, 05:59:40 pm
content: Quote from: Quatrerwin on January 24, 2017, 11:00:28 pmAnother vote for the Engineer SS-02.The silicone rubber tip makes a really good seal to suck up the solder. It's also quite a bit smaller than the standard Edsyn Soldapullt (DS017), which makes it easier to use IME. Edsyn does make other models that aren't as long (DS017 is 13"), but I've not tried them.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2017, 06:19:04 pm
content: I don't think you would be happy with a solder sucker. You really need at least 2 good hands to use one... 3 would be better

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 12:15:09 am
content: Quote from: edavid on January 26, 2017, 06:19:04 pmAgreed. It's probably good to have one available for occasional duties and they are not that expensive anyway (even the ones mentioned), but to desolder through-hole components, the desoldering gun is going to be 100x easier.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 01:56:08 am
content: I used one of those Radio Shack rubber bulb desoldering irons for years, it worked ok, sort of. A few years ago I finally bought a Hakko 808 and OH MAN, where had that thing been my whole life? The difference is night and day! I can pull a 40 pin DIP from a double sided board on a whim with little risk of damage. It's a fantastic piece of equipment, I was hesitant to spend the money at the time but now I wish I'd bought it years earlier. If you do through-hole rework/repair you NEED a good vacuum desoldering gun or station.We had a Weller station where I worked and it was ok too but I found I prefer the all in one design of the Hakko for most uses.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 07:00:16 am
content: Quote from: Nprod on January 23, 2017, 06:18:59 pmI did that at first and while it works great, the stainless air tube coming off of the tip fills with solder and is not easy to clean out. Later I bought just a Weller DS227 desoldering head to safely remove the 28 pin DIP NVSRAMs for replacement in my DSO and it worked perfectly; the 28 pin parts just dropped off of the printed circuit board and the pins and holes were so clean that no cleanup was needed.Vacuum desoldering solutions like this work incredibly well for through hole parts but are mostly useless for surface mount parts. The exception is with through hole parts mounted on multilayer boards which have large copper areas; it is difficult to apply enough heat with any iron in this case. So do not expect to use a vacuum desoldering tool to remove parts including capacitors from PC motherboards unless you preheat the board with a hot air gun.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 10:28:22 am
content: Regarding desoldering guns, some units are made with a base that includes the pump (plus the control electronics, like Hakko FR-204) and a handle gun, and others are all-in-one handle unit (Hakko FR-300).Is there any significant difference in usage, performance or reliability (apart of the brand/quality factor, of course) ?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 11:29:39 am
content: There are more filters involved with the separate base + handpiece units, which means higher running costs. But they may have longer-lived pumps because less contamination makes it into the pump. Suction tends to be better if the pump is physically larger, but there can be more delay getting that suction to the workpiece with the long hose. The other issue is ergonomics. The all-in-one units are all gun-styled, which can be more comfortable to use for long periods, but may not be able to reach certain spots that the narrow wand handpieces can in some bulky assemblies.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 09:03:29 pm
content: I always got by with a spring loaded sucker and wick for through-hole.But after watching this guy, I see why investing in a proper tool makes sense for real work volume.https://youtu.be/NoGl7oeh7eU?t=20m5s

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 10:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: julian1 on January 28, 2017, 09:03:29 pmSpring loaded solder suckers can work pretty well but be careful about the reverse recoil from the piston which pushes the plastic tip into the board and can damage fragile pads and traces.

author: Nprod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2017, 12:46:28 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on January 27, 2017, 07:00:16 amI've been looking at that very same desoldering head, but i don't know if they will fit on my LR-20 iron. Otherwise i can just hook up an air compressor and footpedal valve for less than 20$ without even needing a dedicated desoldering station. Gotta say though, seems like hot air guns are way more versatile for desoldering - with some finesse you can even remove through-hole DIPs in one go if you heat the pins evenly enough. There was avideo posted in the Aoyue 852A threadshowing how you can use it not just for removal but also to blow away clogged vias in one go.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2017, 01:08:16 pm
content: One of the most effective / simplest / low maintenance methods I've (others) have occasionally used is an air gun, with a button controlled fine metal tip.I place the PCB in a holder in a metal tray, then just heat and blow the solder out. With practice, you hold one in each hand and can move pretty fast.Nothing to continually clean, and in most cases, an extremely clean hole. Just make sure you trap the solder splatter :-) .. not a big deal though.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2017, 02:32:41 pm
content: Quote from: Nprod on January 30, 2017, 12:46:28 pmAs far as I can tell, the LR-20 uses the same tips as the Weller WES51 and WESD51 stations so it will not work with a DS227 which requires the older Weller Magnastat irons like in the WTCP stations with the TCP irons which use PT series tips.I wish there was something like the DS227 desoldering head for the WES51 and WESD51 but I looked not long ago and did not find anything.The Magnastat stations and irons which use the DS227 are inexpensively available so it would still be cost effective to buy a complete station for just the DS227 desoldering head.http://www.stevenjohnson.com/soldering/weller.htm

author: Nprod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2017, 03:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on January 30, 2017, 02:32:41 pmYeah, LR-20 uses the ET-series. They're nearly identical, except that PT are flat at the back, whereas ET have a conical hole meant for the tip of the temperature sensor to go into. There is actually a desoldering version of the LR20/21 iron named "DS22", but its been hard to find one.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2017, 03:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: Nprod on January 30, 2017, 03:46:54 pmExactly. The crimped in back section of the PT tips is a magnet with a curie temperature used to control temperature. That is why different tips produce different temperatures.I will have to look for a DS22 desoldering head. That sounds ideal given the low cost of the WES51 and WESD51 stations.

author: Nprod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2017, 06:30:13 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on January 30, 2017, 03:58:14 pmNot 100% sure if those would work or not with WES51/WESD51 stations - the input on those says "for PES51 irons only", though the DIN connector appears to be the same as the DS-100 PCEC it's used with. I'm guessing it's still a 24V triac controlled type but the temperature sensor could be configured differently from the PES series. If LR20/21 irons are usable with the WES51 then it should work, but i haven't been able to find any info on that.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2017, 03:48:56 am
content: Quote from: Nprod on January 30, 2017, 06:30:13 pmI do not know either but I think the iron is mechanically compatible which is a start.The only problem with the DS227 is that it operates at a fixed temperature making it less effective on lead free solder but in that case, preheating the board might be necessary for safe results anyway.