Beginner Scope... Loads of info... Huge amounts of Info... Suggestions? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: AdrianC
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 09:59:02 pm
content: Hi,I've been Googling, looking at YouTube, now browsing through this forum (great forum by the way)...I'm looking for a base level scope for home use for "hobby" stuff... I have access to a high end one if needed...It seems as if the options are: Rigol DS1054Z or a Siglent SDS1000X series(?).There are the "cant miss" differences (such as 4ch vs 2ch, 50Mhz vs 100/200Mhz).. The Rigol seems to have been around for a few years (which may be a good or bad thing)...I would be interested in peoples thoughts/comments regarding which they would go with and possible cons with them...I have seen a few posts / videos regarding offset problems, front end amp problems, but these seems to have been fixed (firmware upgrades) or are due to user "error" (and/or learning opportunities).At present the 4ch option seems to be a winner atm due to the channel numbers...Thanks heapsAdrian

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 10:24:58 pm
content: More info...what exactly is your hobby? So what do you want to measure? Microcontroller stuff?

author: AdrianC
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 10:28:06 pm
content: Mainly Ardunio or similar.. little bit of analogue stuff.. RC planes/quads/helis...ThanksAdrian

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 10:59:58 pm
content: SDS1000X models are one of Siglent's best sellers at present especially with the current promotion of 15% off and free Decode. The websites are wrong as the promo has not expired and for our part of the world it runs until the end of March.IIC, SPI, UART, RS232, CAN and LIN protocols decode fine with just 2 channels and you have an Ext Trig in as well should you need a further input.The 500 uV/div range is another feature of this series.All these features are standard at least to the end of the promo.http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=4688&T=2&tid=1

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 11:15:20 pm
content: Hi Adrian,Welcome to the forum. There have been many, many (did I say, many?) discussions about these scopes and you will find proponents for each one. Read any of the many threads that already exist here, including those for the same scenario you described.For the uses you indicated, either scope will be just fine. Ultimately, you'll have to determine which features you really need. If you have a retailer nearby where you can try them out, that may be helpful as well.It's no secret that you can get 100 MHz and decoding on the Rigol DS1054Z for "free", so that's another consideration, but not necessarily the only one. As tautech said, Siglent is offering some free upgrades for the SDS1000X, too.I'll leave it at that because to say more quickly becomes

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 11:25:28 pm
content: Further to your PM, as explained Trio is the Aussie distributor but you might like to price it up from Saelig too.However you might prefer to support your local guys.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/

author: Johncanfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 11:50:55 pm
content: Hard to beat an Agilent 54622D, mixed signal, 100 Mhz, it's my favorite scope of four I own. Dave has a video of it or he talks about it, don't remember.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 01:41:13 am
content: The GW Instek GDS-1000B series is also nice and mature. 4 channels but no protocol decoding (for that you'd need to get the more expensive GDS2000E series which has some other extra features as well):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-review-of-the-gwinstek-1054b/Then again I also have fond memories of the Agilent 54622D

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 01:43:15 am
content: Quote from: Johncanfield on January 19, 2017, 11:50:55 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 09:20:41 am
content: Oh and I forgot about the tablets scopes from MicSig which also look very appealing to me!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-tablet-oscilloscope-tbook-mini-to1000/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 09:28:07 am
content: Quote from: AdrianC on January 19, 2017, 10:28:06 pmArduino? Four channels good. Two channels bad.Quote from: AdrianC on January 19, 2017, 10:28:06 pmYes.The rest is really down to budget. If you're spending less than $1000 then the Rigol DS1054Z is the winner because you can unlock a ton of features. And you only spend $400 - win, win!Above $1000 it gets complicated.

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 10:06:01 am
content: You can't go much wrong with one of these 10$ salae clones. Even a 60$ hantek 6022be helps with arduino stuff.If you can spend 400 bucks, a 1054z is no mistake.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 10:17:38 am
content: Quote from: daybyter on January 20, 2017, 10:06:01 amIMHO the DS1054Z is getting old and dated. If you look at the remarks of owners the user experience leaves several things to be desired and the competition has not been sitting still.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 10:47:27 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2017, 10:17:38 amStill a solid choice if you've only got $400 to spend.PS: And a big firmware update is promised at the end of the month(ish). Maybe they'll give it a facelift.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 04:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2017, 10:17:38 amThe DS1054Z was introduced in September 2014. That makes it about 28 months old.For the extra $100, that Siglent SDS1102X has pretty decent performance. But I wanted 4 channels, no compromises, so it doesn't matter what the SDS1102X can do. And I didn't want to spend a lot of money on a DSO when I had never even seen one! You need to remember that what you see on the screen of a DSO is a mathematically induced hallucination. That image was brought to you by programmers and any correlation with reality is coincidental.If the OP has any doubts about the 'ancient' two year old DS1054Z, he should really buy something else. There are dozens of threads discussing the DS1054Z vs <insert model here> and not much has changed in the past week.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:15:29 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 20, 2017, 04:28:20 pm$26 extra actually with the current promotion.QuoteHistoryDecode additional Protocols500 uV/div rangeMore Wfm/sCorrect Sinx/x interpolation (1)Full Trigger suite as standardQuoteIn some cases very true, see 1 above.Of we could wait a few weeks for new models..................

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:46:32 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 20, 2017, 05:15:29 pmNothing against the Siglent, I just really wanted 4 channels. I already had a perfectly fine Tek 485, still do...Waiting for new models with a whole new collection of 'oopsies' doesn't seem like a winning strategy. Better to let the products mature for a year or so (or two in the case of the DS1054Z) so that most of the bugs are resolved on someone else's time. There's no point in being on the bleeding edge.I just checked list prices. The promo pricing makes Siglent even more attractive but... It still doesn't have 4 channels and that was my #1 criteria. But that's just me: Cheap, with specific requirements and no experience with DSOs whatsoever! Other people are far more experienced in this matter. I had no idea how much I would come to love single shot mode.It looks to me like Siglent wants to become the preeminent player in the entry level market. Good for them! Or, maybe they already are and want to maintain the position. Still good...At the moment, the Siglent SDG2042X is at the top of my shopping list. I am still vacillating about max frequency. That SDG5162 is a compelling choice (at significantly more money).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 06:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 20, 2017, 05:46:32 pmMy 2c:Look at SDG1000X, why ? SineandSquare waveforms to max frequency of the model. (60 MHz max)SDG5000, very sound but older model, it's redeeming feature: isolated outputs. (also sold as a LeCroy)SDG2042X, able to beimprovedto 120 MHz.Now you have a littlescratching to do.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 06:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 20, 2017, 06:14:56 pmOK, I'll have to copy this... I have gotten by for a very long time without a proper signal generator. Yes, getting the square wave up to the full rated frequency of the instrument is worth a lot. What good is a 100 MHz sine generator that can only do 20 MHz square (all numbers are fictional)? I do digital, sine isn't really something I care about.I would definitely look at the SDG2042X - the price is right on a sweet spot. I do not look forward to reading the epic thread, 124 pages is a LOT to read. However, it seems to be one of those generators that won't let waveforms other than sine run to full frequency. I need to study this subject...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 06:48:32 pm
content: A function generator is always limited by the bandwidth/slew rate of the output amplifier so you'd have to decide what is a good enough square wave for you. The Siglent SDG1000 series is nice but the biggest problem with it is the limited amplitude of the second channel which seemed to be addressed in the new SDG1000X series. My SDG1010 (a very old unit with the jitter bug) is fanless which makes it nice and quiet but also warm. So far I'm not thinking about buying a different function generator.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 06:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 20, 2017, 06:33:25 pmCurrently it'sonly25 pages.Quick look at the datasheets:SDG1062X Max 60 MHz Sine and Square wave. $509SDG2042X Max 25 MHz Square wave. (improved or not) $499SDG5162 Max 50 MHz Square wave.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 08:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 20, 2017, 06:59:14 pmtypo... 25 pages is a breeze!QuoteI see an Excel spreadsheet in my future. There is a tendency on my part to want as much frequency as I can afford. Since my FPGA projects usually run at 50 MHz and 100 MHz isn't a stretch, I have always thought that I would want to generate square waves in that range. When I see the price, I will reconsider. For the one-of-a-kind 100 MHz signal, another FPGA is probably the right answer.There is also some kind of pull toward higher product numbers: 5162 over 2042 over 1062. Sure, it's irrational but it's also real (in my head). Sort of like cubic inches when applied to automobiles. Anything less than 7 liters (427 cubic inches) is just another car... I can't even imagine driving a car with a 1.4L engine. My lawnmower had more cubic inches than that! Not really... You might guess, I grew up in the muscle car age. Punch it and fry 'em!It's starting to look like that SDG1062X is a nice way to go. It gets me up to a point where I can breadboard most square wave projects without breaking the bank.All OT, I know...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 09:01:25 pm
content: Yep, agree.When you consider the lesser SDG1032X can do 30 MHz Sine and Square for $399 and with most of the functionality of a 2042X it's surprising they've not had greater recognition too.............yet.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 09:39:41 pm
content: Maybe most people spend the extra $100 on the SDG2042X and hack it to 120MHz.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 10:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2017, 09:39:41 pmThis may be the result of a promotion but at Saelig, the SDG1062X is $509 while the SDG2042X is $499. The SDG1032X is on sale for $359.There are so many differences (sample rate, arbitrary waveform length, maximum square wave frequency (other than just the simple sine frequency), etc) that this is a fairly involved decision. Or it isn't! Just read the epic thread, buy the SDG2042X and follow the yellow brick road.In my case, it would be my first real waveform generator. If it doesn't work out, it isn't a real big deal.I better get reading...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 10:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2017, 09:39:41 pmMost people don't spendanyextra on a DS1054Z and freely unlock all those things marked as "optional" in the table posted above.Other errors outlined, features which mysteriously weren't green highlighted:Reason for cherry-picking those particular features and leaving out others where Rigol wins? Unknown.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 10:18:07 pm
content: I still don’t understand why people continually quote American prices for equipment where it is clearly indicated that the person requesting the advice or guidance is located in Australia, you cannot simply allow for the currency conversion and expect that those prices will be anywhere near relevant, it doesn’t work that way down here and is misleading.Furthermore, anyone purchasing equipment from overseas to save a couple of bucks risks not having local distributor support should equipment be dead on arrival or later found to be faulty, the cost of shipping an item back to an overseas seller from Australia would be horrendous and must be factored into the equation otherwise it’s nothing more than a lucky dip.If you want to compare specifications and features on equipment then that is one thing but to include or make reference to pricing that is completely irrelevant due to a persons specific location then that in my view is out of order, sorry but this gets my goat and always has.Rigol DS-1054Z $579.00 + 10% GST =$637.00 AUDEmona.Siglent SDS-1102X $779.00 + 10% GST =$857.00 AUDTrio Test.The real price difference between these two models is in fact $220.00 AUDEmona Instruments Rigol.http://www.emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/oscilloscopes/ds1054z.html#.WIJ7vdIlcdUTrio Test Siglent.http://www.triotest.com.au/store/siglent-oscilloscopes/728-siglent-sds1102x-digital-oscilloscope-100mhz-1gsas-2-channel.html

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 10:21:14 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 20, 2017, 10:09:29 pmIf you want to generate/edit arbitrary waveforms on a PC you also have to look into a piece of software to create those waveforms. The free software which comes with any AWG is crap so you'll either have to pay for such software or find a different solution (audio editing software for example). I used to own a Lecroy LW420 AWG but I quickly learned that due to the time needed / tedious process to create waveforms it wasn't the versatile tool I'd hoped for.@Muttley: you make a good point but I think most people are aware of what the currency in their wallet is worth versus the dollar and taxes + local markups.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 10:52:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2017, 10:21:14 pmYeah well, I feel sorry for any kid that got a paper round and saved up $350 and then sold his bike for $50 because somebody on the internet told him that a Rigol DS-1054Z was $400, the staff at the Emona shop would simply laugh at him.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 11:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 20, 2017, 10:52:57 pmWell that would be a valuable lesson which saved some money

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 02:30:49 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 20, 2017, 10:18:07 pmIf we don't quote price in some form, how can we compare features versus cost?As to cost in some other country, how would anyone in the US know where to buy or how much something might cost in a foreign country? And that's before VAT.Then there is the issue of true cost - how many hours of work to buy a gadget? In high-dollar countries, $400 might be no big deal at all. Maybe one day of salary before taxes. In other countries, the same exchange rate price might require a good deal more work.I suggest those who live in another country apply their own exchange rates and taxes. Even Dave quotes prices in US$ and it's pretty clear he lives down under..

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 03:34:19 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 20, 2017, 10:18:07 pmSomething's wrong with Trio's pricing, they should well below that figure and should be challenged.As I stated earlier in this thread a promo is still active until 31 March for AU and NZ and probably other regions too.Now, the Siglent websites are wrong saying the promo finished 1 Jan and confirmation of this can be seen if you click on the: To Learn More.List price is currently US$ 499 and with the promo $ 425, 26 USD more than a 1054Z and with no need to hack for the BW, Decode suite and 500 uV/div range.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 09:21:34 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 21, 2017, 03:34:19 amThe prices are valid and they can charge whatever they like and nobody is in any position to tell them otherwise, I doubt very much if Siglent would even attempt to tackle anybody ever again over pricing particularly one of their larger regional distributors.Trio Test & Measurement are from my experience a very good company and I couldn't even make up a bad word to say about them, the pricing down here is what it is regardless of the distributor.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 09:52:30 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 21, 2017, 09:21:34 amCan you Aussies get scopes like these through AU Customs free ?It's a bit of a problem in NZ as many Asian sellers undervalue the cost on the shipping declarations to ensure it sli.....ps through Customs, fee free. We sellers must recognise this and endeavour to keep our pricing reasonable so to tempt buyers to buy locally and also be sure of better support.This is reality, I know 'cause that's how I started in the new scopetradebut now I've gone legit I can see both sides. The funny thing is while I have some products on our local Trademe, very few hunt me out and ask for better pricing which of course I can offer as there's no sales fees by buying direct.I say ring Trio and put the hard word on them.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 10:33:15 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 21, 2017, 09:21:34 amI can set $500 or 5000 price for one new SDS1102X.Siglent can not say even half bad word about wrong price. Seller set his price. Buer is king, he can think if price is ok for total what he get. Total is item in the box + more or less immaterial value depending who is seller.If I live in island where is just one seller, me, and there is no competition and there is customers who need this, they pay what I ask if they need and have money. Seller can set markets highest price if he want.Also it need also remember that it is not only equipment in the box. Seller sell box + all his non material reputation and before sales (example professional grade evaluation together with customer about solution ) and after sales customer care. Also some seller help customers even after years, answer possible question and perhaps solve some measurement application together with customer. All "free" service. But all know there is not free lounges.Some peoples want buy item in the box and nothing more, and lowest price win.There is lot of "box shipper" sellers who do nothing but receive money and resend box, what ever box, pants or oscilloscopes or shoes (some times not even this, they are just drop ship sellers).Then all kind of sellers who do more or even much more. Some sellers may do also full scale after sales customer care, perhaps also have own quality control process etc etc.I can sell one SDS1102X to some b and price is $2000 + shipping etcOnly small part of this deal is SDS1102X in the box. We can before deal chek in live that it can do what is your measurement application, I can give hotline if we deal this, I can give short "how to use" course, I can do 3 day "burn in and test" q control procedure for reduce "new fails" propability.Equipment is very cheap. My work is expensive!If one sell box and only it without any care it can be much cheaper. If you meet any problem or any question, you perhaps get never any answer or help and perhaps he do not understand what you talk because he have never seen what is in the box and know nothing about intrument. If there is failure you take contact to manufacturer and you are alone with them.Prices can be lowest possible , including nothing but unopened factory carton. Easy business, receive money and ship box and just do not answer ans loose time if someone ask something and ask customer contact manufacturer.Prices can be as high as buyer (and seller) "want" but also it may then include much more. It may include seller side professional work and customer help and what ever, only sky and price is limit what it can be.So, keep free prices. I have never meet any single case where Siglent say: you ask too high price. No one can force seller freedom to set price. No one can force customer to select what price he pay and service he buy, not even Mr Trump, as long as it is legal by law.

author: Boson
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 11:09:54 am
content: Hi all! Me new here many thing not understand but still noticeQuote from: rstofer on January 20, 2017, 06:33:25 pmI also do digital, no hi speed just arduino. Buy Analog Discovery 2 because:16-channel pattern generator (3.3V CMOS, 100MS/s)+Two-channel arbitrary function generator (±5V, 14-bit, 100MS/s, 12MHz+ bandwidth - with the Analog Discovery BNC Adapter Board)Pattern generator very helpful! Only must aware not all frequency/duty possible because low clock.Wonder why need high speed awg when do only digital? Maybe only more frequency/duty option possible because high clock? But only 2 channel, not 16! If much money both need of course but elseAddition not understand all correction fungus make on rf-loop table. I look Rigol spec before buy AD and no see 50ohm inputalso read forum not turn off sinx always?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 02:37:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2017, 10:21:14 pmTrue, but local dealers/countries may charge what they like, ie. the price in the shops isn't simply the dollar price converted to local currency.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 02:55:47 pm
content: Quote from: Boson on January 21, 2017, 11:09:54 amI have had an Analog Discovery for several years. It is a terrific piece of equipment within its specifications. Generating 100 MHz square waves is beyond its capability. Nevertheless, I use it all the time for doing small projects.As I had mentioned earlier, I have never had a proper AWG and the reason is, I don't need one. I have actually never needed one, I always had a way to come up with signals in some other way. Some were not pretty but they were adequate.It does seem disappointing to look at a 160 MHz AWG and then realize that the upper frequency applies only to sine output. The square wave is limited to 50 MHz. You have to read the details on all this stuff.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 03:05:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2017, 10:21:14 pmI have no idea what is involved with creating an arbitrary waveform file but if it is as simple as CSV, I could create the file using FORTRAN. That would be very pleasing to me. It would be a lot like plotting to the drum plotter on an IBM1130 as I started doing in undergrad circa 1970.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/IBM_1130_(16758008839).jpg/280px-IBM_1130_(16758008839).jpgOurs was blue and I spend MANY hours learning the mysteries of programming.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 04:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on January 20, 2017, 03:37:24 pmHi rf-loop,are you still selling Siglent equipment professionally? For a long time you had disclosed that in your signature, and I think it was good practice. I enjoy your posts, which are always well-informed. But -- whether a particular post makes Siglent equipment look good or not -- I think it is good to inform readers of your potential commercial interest.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 07:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 21, 2017, 03:05:31 pmUnfortunately life isn't that simple. A while ago I wanted to play a CSV file which I had recorded with an oscilloscope on my Siglent SDG1010 but it turned out it could only read CSV files created with the Siglent Easywave PC software. Now Easywave has no means to import data so in the end I created a dummy CSV file with Easywave and copy&pasted the CSV data from the oscilloscope into it using a text editor.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 08:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 21, 2017, 03:05:31 pmFrom an old and overly trolled thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg2000x-new-arbitary-generator/msg692234/#msg692234From another:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg794951/#msg794951

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 08:07:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 21, 2017, 07:48:37 pmUnfortunately life isn't that simple. A while ago I wanted to play a CSV file which I had recorded with an oscilloscope on my Siglent SDG1010 but it turned out it could only read CSV files created with the Siglent Easywave PC software. Now Easywave has no means to import data so in the end I created a dummy CSV file with Easywave and copy&pasted the CSV data from the oscilloscope into it using a text editor.So, basically, create a template with EasyWave and stuff in data from elsewhere. Any required headers and footers would be part of the template.Given that, why can't my code write a duplicate of the template? I guess I'll find out pretty soon! I love surprises...