In-house prototyping pick and place setup - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: carl.g
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 12:49:13 am
content: HiTo reduce turnaround time for prototyping we are considering purchasing a pick and place and reflow setup to allow for assembly in house. While I have been designing and both hand assembling and outsourcing to assemblers for nearly a decade this is quite outside my area of expertise and figured I would ask here for advise. Our requirements are somewhat extreme for this sort of setup, large numbers of components on both sides of the board, 0201 to large BGA packages, large PCBs, etc.I know of manufacturers like Yamaha but their machines are beyond the scope of what we need or can afford, a few google searches found NeoDen which might be suitable but I want to know if anyone here has experience with this sort of in-house prototyping setup and could provide some recommendations.

author: Amy-Neoden
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 04:28:00 am
content: Hi Carl, this is Amy from Neoden. Thank you for your attention to our products. So far we have three models of pick and place machine can handle 0201 and bigger components. Our main products are pick and place machine, reflow over and solder paste printer. Our machines are compact and suitable for in-house or lab prototyping.No hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.Best Regards,AmyEmail: sales4@neodentech.comMob:+86 15867167229

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 05:59:34 am
content: There's a dozen of this similar thread in this forum. Please do a search and I'm sure you'll get plenty of information from it.

author: carl.g
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 11:19:45 pm
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on August 24, 2021, 05:59:34 amI did do a search, most of the relevant threads I found were in relation to smaller "desktop" machines like the NeoDen4 or people talking about their experience with similar machines from apparently less reputable manufacturers. I need a significantly larger max PCB area than what those machines can do.I am aware of this threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/the-reality-of-a-pick-and-place-lifestyle/but I am more interested in people's experience with the ROI in relation to purely prototyping rather than running it for in-house production. Its easy to do the math and work out how much time and money you can theoretically save with a given amount of known iteration stages but bringing things in-house will introduce risks I have no idea of which is why I am asking.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 11:28:51 pm
content: You really need to specify the numbers you're talking about. How many boards in a prototype run?Having installed a medium volume SMT line a year ago I'd have no interest in setting something up for prototyping only.

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 11:34:26 pm
content: > Our requirements are somewhat extreme for this sort of setup, large numbers of components on both sides of the board, 0201 to large BGA packages> I know of manufacturers like Yamaha but their machines are beyond the scope of what we need or can affordDoes not compute ;^)Like others have said need to know some actual numbers, but my suspicion is that it will be more difficult/expensive to make these boards inhouse rather than outsourcing to a PCB assembly house

author: carl.g
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 01:17:13 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on August 24, 2021, 11:28:51 pmSorry, I should have specified this, there are several PCBs for the final product and each will be broken down into sub-components that need to be prototyped, validated, and have software developed (along with test rigs for each). Some will only need 1 or 2 made, others will need as many as 20, most will be ~5, at least 10 individual designs plus any required revisions. The reasons we are choosing to develop this way is to de-risks things and allow for better parallelization of development, reducing the turnaround time for each from a month to (theoretically) a week is attractive even if it means having to baby a PnP machine for a day or two.Quote from: Mangozac on August 24, 2021, 11:28:51 pmIs there any reason for this that you didn't expect going into it? or is it just down to the amount of time required to get everything running smoothly?

author: kylehunter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 01:22:09 am
content: I did a video going into some thoughts on pick and place machineshttps://youtu.be/2YferFPmNtISpoiler: You're not going to have a fun time with a neoden or similar machine.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 05:32:34 am
content: Quote from: carl.g on August 25, 2021, 01:17:13 amNo, it has all turned out pretty much in-line with my expectations, but I wouldn't have wanted to set it up just for prototyping beforehand eitherFor just a couple of prototypes you're going to spend more time programming and setting feeders up than what it will save. I'd much prefer just a half skilled person with a hand operated vacuum pickup and a mantis scope.I'm sure Neodenet alis fine for prototyping purposes but I'd want some guarantees as to their 0201 capabilities before going down that route. Sure, they say it's supported but that doesn't mean it works well.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 06:00:56 am
content: Totally agree with Mangozac. You will spend a lot of time setting up the machine and feeders just for a few pieces of board. And it's not always going to be load and go and it will never be. Your parts also have to be in reels or at least cut tapes with enough leader tapes and what not. Or spend time making custom trays for your loose parts. I did my manufacturing by hand for more than 20K boards before actually owning a machine. The only reason I bought was I needed to scale up both in time and quantity. If I'm just going to make few tens of boards regardless of it's complexity, I would stick to hand placing with some helper tools if needed. I wrote an article about choosing a P&P machine about a year ago, and I ended up getting tonnes of email asking for support and help with their machine although I'm not obliged to help. But from these SOS mails, I can conclude that a lot of people has jumped into the P&P bandwagon without knowing how much effort is actually needed to actually run that thing! Last but not least, that "0201 thingy", you have to actually run it to check whether a machine can do it reliably and consistently on the advertised machine unless you are taking about machine that costs a lot more money. My machine can do 0201 and I have verified it's consistency but to use them in production? I rather stick to my 0603 and 0402.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 06:30:54 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on August 25, 2021, 06:00:56 amAnd said much better than me.And just to add: the only time we use our pick and place for prototypes is if we're doing a mini prototype production run of 10-20 units we might program in just the jellybean parts like 10k, 0.1uF, etc. and have the machine place them.I just assumed that OP had a specific need for 0201; if not then absolutely just stick with 0603!

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 07:39:35 am
content: From what I have seen, there are no cheap machines that do large feeder counts or large PCBs. When we were choosing a machine I went to great lengths to shortlist machines that handled larger boards, high feeder counts and still had room for trays and cut tape holders. This basically made a larger Essemtec a fairly easy choice its only real competition was from Dima who I didn't trust to stay in the market or a much bigger Europlacer iineo. None of those options were good for an ROI on an internal R&D line, we do small batch manufacture & prototyping for our own products and other people - anything from 1-2 boards to 1000 and that's how the machine was paid for.Your problem is not an easy one to solve 0201 needs good, accurate feeders, with some manufacturers they will be different feeders to the ones used for 0603&up, 2nd user machines today might cover that range, in 2012 they didn't. My choice would be a MyData or Europlacer or Essemtec but with 2nd user buying the feeders is even more painful, people who sell old machines keep their feeders so they stay relatively expensive (MyData/Europlacer feeders will be better value because of how they operate)When I build very low volume prototypes I do what others mention, populate the volume stuff on the machine and move to manual pick&place/tweezers for the rest, however that does get more complicated with larger boards and higher numbers of different parts. Even in-house a week is an ambitious turnaround particularly right now when so much of your time could get spend finding parts and redesigning based on what you can actually buy.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 09:50:38 am
content: Hmmm, this thread looks like astroturfing...

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 12:58:29 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 25, 2021, 09:50:38 amIt could be, except the response hasn't exactly gone their way. I don't really get the OPs Neoden focus to start with, I wouldn't say they made a machine that meets the large board + complex requirement but then we all have different definitions of large & lots. To me 66 lanes is basically one side of a typical generic placer, yet its the the maximum on a K1830. If I chose to so configure it there are 240 slots on our Essemtec, 264 on an IINEO, and a variety of options on a MyData depending on which chassis you choose, around 140-180 IIRC. 10 year old Essemtecs like ours go for £30k or less, often with some feeders if the user has traded up to a different class of machine, that's pretty competitive with a new machine from China but better software, better support, better maintenance options.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 02:03:34 pm
content: I think you can cut down on a setup time a lot if you don't go for a full assembly on a machine, but rather only have it stuff the jellybean parts (like decoupling caps, pullup/pulldowns), which tend to be the large percentage of components on most digital boards, and they are usually the same (or can be made the same) on different designs. And then stuff the rest of parts manually. In my case, even if I had a PnP with only 10 feeders, I would be able to install a bulk of parts with it and it would cut down on assembly time dramatically. And since these jellybean parts are 0201 or 0402, they are cheap enough to buy them by full reels. This approach is obviously not good for production, but for prototypes I think it's pretty good.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 03:01:35 pm
content: Depends a bit doesn't it.. What I've seen from many clients is a distinct increase in the number of different parts they use even on "digital" boards as they implement sexy new ICs and little switching regulators with weird value resistors etc. With really big boards you also have a physical limit of what you can reach comfortably without smudging or knocking something else. Still if this is the lengths you're going to to prototype, do it properly and do some real production too (even if its just service stock or short notice items) , it's not something you'll regret and will have the same benefits in terms of times and turnaround as prototyping in-house

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 03:48:25 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on August 25, 2021, 03:01:35 pmI'm talking specifically about my own experience. I always try to reuse the same parts as much as possible, and in a lot of cases for digital boards specific value is not that important. Reasons I'm doing it the same as for the case of automated PnP - less inventory lines to procure/store/search for, and faster assembly.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 07:27:50 pm
content: The problem with prototyping using a P&P is getting all the parts in feeder compatible formats. The hassle is very very rarely worth-it. Especially if you are still in the p/type stage.Who-the-f**k wants a reel of 0402 732K kicking around just because you followed the datasheet for some weird speck-of-dust converter that you're convinced can't possibly pass THAT much current and switch at THAT many MHz.

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 07:58:23 pm
content: Lots of good things already said above. To add my experience: I just ask one of the front office girls to assemble the proto’s. She likes alternation withe her usual work and has no issues placing 0402’s with just a fine tipped tweezer and we have a manual placer with loupe for the even smaller stuff. Small series up to 10 do not bother her.I just need to prepare detailed instructions and pre-label the components with the refdes codes as she barely knows the difference between a capacitor and a resistor, but much of that preparation work would be needed for automatic placing as well.

author: carl.g
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 11:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: kylehunter on August 25, 2021, 01:22:09 amThanks for this video, I went and had a look at some used machines for sale from the manufacturers mentioned and I after doing a bit of reading up on vision systems I realized why its overly optimistic to expect 0201 and large ICs with the single camera setups that cheaper machines have.Quote from: Mangozac on August 25, 2021, 05:32:34 amMy experience with hand assembly has been mixed. Even though I use stencils for paste and a heat gun and thermocouple controlled hot plate (with a big block of Aluminium for even heat distribution) for reflow if the board has something like a SODIMM connector it often will require rework which can take hours and isn't fun to say the least. That is why I am asking about this, even if it takes a few hours to setup a machine if it can eliminate the risk of having to spend an equal amount of time reworking fine pitch components it will be worth it just from a sanity sake.Thanks everyone else who provided advise and their experiences, its been very helpful. One thing I should have stated clearer is that I mean the board has lots of common components, those 0201s I mentioned are (mostly) limited to the hundred(s) of caps that sit on the back side of the PCB under the large BGAs for supply pin decoupling while everything else is in 0402 or larger.Just out of curiosity I had a look at OpenPnP builds and it got me thinking, the only boards that will require 0201s are the ones that require the large BGAs, everything else will be 0402 to BGAs smaller than ~15mm. So maybe a solution would be to go with an OpenPnP machine (with good cameras and maybe ballscrews) for the simpler boards and then outsource the few boards that have 0201 and large BGAs.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 04:48:11 am
content: Quote from: carl.g on August 26, 2021, 11:39:03 pmThat sounds more like issues with stenciling and reflow and thus not something that a pick and place is going to solve. If your paste prints look good make sure you're using fresh paste (pro tip: even "room temperature stable" paste turns to crap if you get it shipped from the US). Look at getting a proper batch reflow oven for a couple of $k.

author: carl.g
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 05:18:02 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on August 27, 2021, 04:48:11 amI am aware that stenciling is playing at least some part in it, paste is stored in a fridge and allowed to warm up to room temperature before use and shipped in from Australia, but even if the paste looks good after the stencil is pulled it will still result in a few pins bridged. What happens is that I will always end up smudging it slightly when placing (which isn't hard to do with SODIMM connectors) which with small variations in the amount of paste on each pad results in a few bridging. And what about small BGAs? its easy to align ICs like QFNs where you can see the pins and pads but with BGAs all you really have for hand placement is the silkscreen (which isn't guaranteed to be accurate). I have thought about alignment jigs made from another PCB or 3d printed that would slot over the board and allow for packages to be placed easily but how much extra effort would it be to design and make one compared to setting up a machine?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:30:37 am
content: Once paste comes out of a fridge. It DOES NOT GO BACK! From then on its on its own, its life is limited and its a consumable, a slightly expensive one, but nowhere near as much as buying a p&p line, priting and reflow are way more important than placement. Things like connectors in particular take time to dial in on machines anyway and are much less straightforward than simpler symmetrical chips and ICs.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 01:48:51 pm
content: Quote from: carl.g on August 27, 2021, 05:18:02 amSilkscreen is accurate enough to place a 0.8 or 1.0mm pitch BGA manually. They are much more forgiving compare to 0.4mm pitch TQFP. If you place BGA for prototyping, you don't even need the paste. Apply a thin layer of tacky flux instead. This is good enough for BGA and there's nothing for you to smash.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 01:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: carl.g on August 27, 2021, 05:18:02 amI use room temperature stable paste to avoid the hassle of storing paste in the fridge. Highly recommend it to anyone!Quote from: carl.g on August 27, 2021, 05:18:02 amBGA are not super-sensitive to placement because they will self-align during reflow. In practice I've reflowed and hand-soldered quite a lot of BGAs, and I never had any problems with them. I didn't work with tiny chip-scale 0.4 mm pitch BGAs (because I don't have access to PCB tech to use them), so maybe things are different with them. But with larger 0.8 mm and up pitch BGAs alignment is not nearly as important as people seem to think.

author: challen908
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 09:35:20 pm
content: Im am just curious, I have a customer that wants to take a prototype I designed and assembled for them and do a bulk order of 100-300 in the next couple months. Would this merit getting a pick and place machine or you still think doing that quantity by hand? I would like to eventually scale up to where I need a pick and place, or even offer the customer an option of 1k to 2k as he scales up and for future customers, but so many people who have machines say its a lot of work, at the same time these board houses like JLC have so many components not available, but are available on digikey/mouser.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 11:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: challen908 on March 13, 2022, 09:35:20 pmWow! 100+ boards, unless DEAD simple, does merit a P&P in my book. The original topic was prototyping with a P&P, this doesn't make sense to me, but anything over a dozen boards DOES merit using a machine. It takes me a couple hours to load parts and do the programming setup on my current P&P machine.Then, I can squeegee the solder paste in 30 seconds or less/board (manual) and place something like 4000 parts/hour on the P&P machine. That means I am cranking out boards faster than the oven can reflow them.Once you have the programming done, and leaving reels on the feeders, you can crank out boards the next day with just a few minutes of setup for the paste application.Yes, setup is a lot of work, but when in production, you get the free ride of having the MACHINE do all the work!Jon

author: challen908
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 03:03:11 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on March 13, 2022, 11:47:54 pmThank you or the response, do you have any recommendations on what machine I should be looking at and what I can do to learn how to use it? I was seeing people suggest the Kayo A4, which is a desktop model.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:25:39 am
content: Quote from: challen908 on March 14, 2022, 03:03:11 amIt's not possible to answer your questions without knowing the complexity of the boards (i.e. how many parts, how small, etc.). There are so many factors in determining if it's worthwhile, but from an affordability point of view I wouldn't say it's worthwhile to do 100 boards per month. You'd be better off finding a local CM to work with.The Kayo A4 is a good starting machine, but there's a LOT of process knowledge to learn and the Kayo software is basic. We run Kayo machines and while I'm happy with them for the price point, I understand the features that the high end machines have that would be so much better to have.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:58:54 pm
content: Quote from: challen908 on March 14, 2022, 03:03:11 amThere have been many discussions here on this topic. 13 years ago, I bought a used Philips CSM84 (made by Yamaha in about 1995). It was a very simple machine, no vision, 3 nozzles with chuck jaws for centering, and a "mechanical alignment" station for large components. it worked, but all the mechanical stuff had tolerances, and was not good enough to place anything with 0.5mm lead pitch or finer. Also, certain shapes of chips (roughly square instead of rectangular) would not center well. Also, the feeders were quite fiddly and jammed a LOT. When I got the Philips, I was making boards within the week!2 years ago I upgraded to a Quad QSA30A (made by Samsung, about 2000, same frame as their CP30) but with Quad electronic feeders and Quad component vision cameras. I bought it from an auction in Texas, had it shipped here and it started working right away. Then, modules started breaking and I had to replace a BUNCH of stuff. Programming is MUCH more complecated due to the vision system, but it is faster, and more accurate than the old Philips. The Quad feeders are more fiddly to set up (the pick-up point and tape advance are programmable) but they are quite a bit more reliable than the Philips/Yamaha all-mechanical feeders. The manuals were HORRIBLE! I got a HUGE amount of help from the guy who did the training at the factory, or I never would have gotten the thing running at all.So, anyway, I went with used commercial production machines. Parts are still available, used. I can't compare with the new Chinese machines, but there have been problems noted with these, too. Both of my machines were "universal", ie. designed to mount a wide range of part sizes, and lead pitches. Also, watch out for component height limitations. Some machines can't handle tall parts.Many people hand program the machine by teaching every part location. While tedious, the potential for error is huge. I have figured out how to convert the placement file from my CAD software into what the machines require, so that is at least automated. Make sure any machine you are looking at has the ability to save and load placement data to/from a computer.Jon

author: pan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 11:31:38 am
content: I used this forum to make a short list of p&p "candidates". I ended up buying Kayo S600. My budget was limited, and there is a point where the investment makes sense - or not. I design boards for customers, and in the past I sent everything out for prototype assembly or production. I wanted to take control of this myself, and I have not looked back.The machine was simple to learn, but as it was said here before I also spent a lot of time learning the process. My requirements with regards to p&p was to be able to place components I normally use in my designs; downto 0201, fine pitch devices, bga etc. I have not used 0201 yet as I tend to avoid it if it is not required. But, I place 0402 reliable.I started out with a manual printer. We did not get along.. So I purchased a used Speedprint in very good condition. Easy to align and very good print every time. I also have a vapor phase owen from IBL. Soldering quality is very good.Kayo support is very good. Since, I was very new to this I have asked a LOT of questions. Every one has been answered. I do the maintenance myself on the Kayo (cleaning, lubricating etc). The Speedprint was serviced by a pro after purchase to make sure it was top notch and ready for work.Regarding choice of p&p and other equipment goes hand in hand with requirements (what to assemble) and expected volume. It can make sense to go for a less expensive alternative as Kayo or other brand, but also for a higher end when that is called for. We have a saying in my language which is difficult to translate, but it is somewhere in the lines of if you save to much or in the wrong place you will be poor.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 02:07:54 pm
content: It really depends not just on the complexity and quantity of the boards of this particular client. But, more important on whether you will have enough orders to justify the purchase. Do you have only 1 customer? Of course, it's good to look ahead and estimate your business growth in the long run. If I were you and have spare time, I wouldn't mind building those 100-300 by hand. I didn't owna machine until I was churning out a total of than 20K boards of variable complexity.