How to source hard-to-find parts (and the legality of making them yourself) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Syllith
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 04:02:09 pm
content: I work for a refurbishing company. One of our jobs is to refurbish Nokia radios for the telecom industry. On these radios, there is a metal twist-on cap that covers an SFP port to weather proof it. Unfortunately, these caps are NOT sold individually by Nokia, or the 2 manufacturers we found who make them. Now we're faced a few problems, but we need help deciding which route to goRoute 1: 3D print the caps ourselves using PETG filament. We're actually doing this already as a temporary bandaid, however, there are some legal implications here. We have redesigned the part from scratch, however, we're not sure if this would possibly infringe on an existing patent that might be out there. I have attached an image of the printed part for reference. Also, the OEM caps have a rating of IP67. We did a rudimentary test here in our lab to see how well it would perform under the same conditions, and the results were surprisingly positive. We could perhaps convince our customer to allow us to use these caps if we got them IP67 rated AND cleared them legally. But how would I go about finding a patent of this particular part?Finding these caps are proving difficult. I don't think they're sold completely on their own, but rather with a small kit, which I was able to find the datasheet on. Here is what we need:https://radiall-files.s3.amazonaws.com/tds/fibreopticcomponents/R2CT107000_21-08-18B.pdfHowever, I also found something interesting. I found a plastic version of the kit here:https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/516/R2CT105000_24_12_18C-2501011.pdfNow, keep in mind, in these data sheets, I ONLY need the covers, not the entire thing. The plastic version says there is a patent pending, the metal version does not. I've looked on Google Patents for an hour now looking for anything at all that relates to these kits / caps, but I cannot find anything. I'm wondering if maybe I'm going about this wrong and perhaps need to look elsewhere? We'd rather not print these caps as we can only produce 30 a day with our current setup (which could be expanded), but preferably, we'd like to just purchase them.Route 2: Send a 3D model of the cap we're already 3D printing to a real manufacturer and have them produce metal versions for us in mass. We'd be looking at purchasing around 50,000, but that sounds like it has the potential to be very costly. Not that we're not prepared to spend money on it, but anywhere we could save a dollar would be great. Now, this also has potential patent problems. Would a manufacturer help look into patenting issues for us, or is that typically the responsibility of the customer? If we only produce a part of the patented kit (like the cap), would that still fall under the same patent protections, or are we allowed to do that because it's not cloning the ENTIRE patent? Any estimates on cost per cap to make?Route 3: Simply find a place online that we can purchase these caps in bulk from. We've already been looking for a few months now, but we can't seem to find a reliable cheap source. Not really much to say about this option, as it would be the easiest, but very unlikely that we'd find a good source, but hey, you guys would know better than me. Any suggestions on where to find these?That's basically the rundown of what we have going on. I'm not looking for any definitive answers here, just guidance on what to do next. None of the options are optimal, but I'd like to exhaust all my options before telling our customer "too bad so sad". Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 04:22:01 pm
content: Is the threading critical for the application?Perhaps Caplugs has something off-the-shelf in their huge catalog.https://www.caplugs.com/catalogs

author: Syllith
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 04:44:34 pm
content: Yes, the threading is critical. I will still take a look to see if they have anything, thanks for the suggestionEdit: Just sent in a quote request to see what it would cost to get them custom made. This site is great, but the catalog didn't have what we needed. Might be useful in the future. Any other sites similar to this where I might be able to get something custom made?

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 05:30:03 pm
content: It's the responsibility of the patent holder to come after YOU, not vice versa. Don't worry about it unless there's actually a patent number on the part or in the documentation.Not legal advice, just common sense.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 05:50:40 pm
content: For a quantity of 50K, I'm sure you could find a Chinese manufacture to CNC or maybe injection mould them at a reasonable price.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 05:57:43 pm
content: From your picture, it looks like a cover over a Bayonet-style military connector. Is that right? Have you searched the manufacturer of the connector it fits over? Cannon, Amphenol, Burndy, Bendix and a bunch of other companies make these sorts of connectors largely for the military, but also for higher-end connercial equipment. They must also make the dust/weather covers for them.AMP (now TE Connectivity, I think) makes bayonet-locking plastic connectors that are WAY cheaper than the metal military-grade type. Possibly they make a dust cover that will fit your connector.Jon

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 09:55:27 pm
content: Since the existing receptacle has a gasket, if you can specify a clean surface with either the plastic injection molded or metal part, you should get a good seal. You'll have to replicate their dimensions.I don't see how you can patent a simple cap like this, the patent is probably for the connector itself.Just go to some various Alibaba trusted suppliers and ask for a quote for injection molded and aluminum CNC machined versions. My guess is <50c for the plastic injection molded, and maybe a few dollars for the aluminum at 50k qty. 50k seems like a huge amount though..In the photo it almost looks like they used a pressed in pin or some other feature:https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/radiall-usa-inc/R2CT107000/14665448But just let the manufacturer figure out how they will make it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 11:43:20 pm
content: I don't think you'll run into any legal issues as long as you don't put a Nokia logo on them or sell them as original parts. There are scores of aftermarket compatible parts out there for various things.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 12:53:59 am
content: i THINK THEY would rather sell connectors then caps lol

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 04:15:06 pm
content: 1. You performed due diligence by contacting the connector manufacturer to ask about buying the caps alone. They said no.2. You are not selling the caps individually for profit. You are certainly not making and selling connector assemblies. You are just using the caps for restoration/refurbishment. So it would be difficult (but not impossible) for the connector manufacturer to argue that you are stealing potential sales from them. They would need to argue that you should be buying entire assemblies from them. Legally, that might make sense, but it is not reasonable. It would be like saying that anyone that needs a replacement valve cover cap for their car needs to buy an entire new engine. I can't imagine even the sleaziest lawyer winning that case.Worst case, if the manufacturer comes after you, you can settle by having them sell the caps alone, which is all you wanted in the first place.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 05:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on August 03, 2022, 04:15:06 pmIANAL, but I don’t think any of that is correct. There’s no legal basis whatsoever for the manufacturer to “settle” for selling you the caps. They can refuse to sell them and refuse to let you procure alternatives.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 06:47:00 pm
content: The R2CT105000 you posted from Mouser appears to just have a flexible vinyl cap and no grooves for a locking pin, but it's hard to tell and you'd probably want to just order one to be sure. The R2CT107000 is $12 or less in bulk from Mouser, so 50K would be well under $600k. OK, that is a chuck of change, but if you have a customer that insists on official IP67 ratings and legal clearances, that's their problem. Unless it is actually your problem for some reason, I wouldn't throw yourself under the bus to save them a buck.You would need to obtain the patent application to even have the a clue about whether the cap alone would be implicated (it very well might be) and that is something best left to patent attorney who will charge you a nice fee to give you an opinion letter without any guarantee.As far as making your own, I've no idea what the requirements are, but your customer would have to be comfortable with a plastic replacement. At that volume I'd go with an injection molding. But first I'd contact an actual human at Radiall and explain that you might have a large order of just the caps. Simply because they don't list them separately doesn't mean that they couldn't accommodate a large-ish order like that. I suspect they won't be as cheap as you might hope though.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 08:35:17 pm
content: First to note is that it is patent pending, so it's not patented yet and may never be.Regardless, you've contacted the manufacturer and asked for spares for refurbishment purposes, and they've declined. I think this is covered byright to repairQuoteIf this doesn't cover it (that is, the patent issue could still be a problem) then the above suggestions of having some Asian manufacturer churn a load out won't circumvent that - you will be the importer and therefore the entity of interest. That would apply regardless of where you source the parts, or whether you make them yourself.The 3D printed version you show is clearly not the original, so that would be 'recognized as a repaired item' I would think. Should you get more exact copies made, I doubt if you would have a problem if you're just fitting them to the kit you refurbish. Selling them as parts by themselves would be a different matter.Note that IANAL, and even if everything I say was 100% factual and reliable, the (pending!) patent owner no doubt has tons more money than you and can thus win even when they are wrong.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 12:14:20 am
content: Firstly, IANAPA (I am not a patent attorney), but I have stuck my nose into this corner of IP.Quote from: KE5FX on August 02, 2022, 05:30:03 pmSo ... go blindly into commitment on a particular option then risk having to throw it all away and possibly deal with legal costs and damages claims....Not what I would call common sense.The Op is showing a more professional approach.Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 03, 2022, 08:35:17 pmA risky attitude, IMO. By having the patent application submitted, the priority date is set and should the patent be granted, you are then behind the 8 ball.Quote from: tooki on August 03, 2022, 05:50:02 pmI agree with tooki.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 12:27:54 am
content: Talk with an IP lawyer.That being said: Patents usually remain pending for up to 3 years. The datasheet is from 2010. They either got the patent or didn't get it, but it's unlikely it's actually still pending.Some googling suggests it might behttps://patents.google.com/patent/EP2239605B1/en

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 01:46:42 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 07, 2022, 12:14:20 amNote that if there's a patent, that still doesn't mean the copy will infringe on the actual claim(s). They might be claiming a new plastic formulation or who knows what. It should be possible to design a cap for a receptacle that will be safe, IP-wise, as long as you don't overtly copy every minute detail of the existing design. Especially if you use an entirely different manufacturing process.It's absurd to let something like this interfere with shipping a product. Your approach, which will result in shipping nothing, has its risks, too.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 07:41:58 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on August 07, 2022, 12:27:54 amIf it is this patent, then manufacturing a cap is not going to infringe it, since the cap design isn’t within the scope of the invention. Then you’re in the realm of “making compatible accessories”, which you can do to your heart’s content.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 08:03:44 am
content: i'm not an expert.. but i would say you can't patent something that generic as a cap or lid. so if you design your own cap/lid which will be not an exact copy of the original but will do the job, then it should be fine.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 10:39:52 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on August 07, 2022, 01:46:42 amTrueQuoteNot sure if that's really relevant but, then, I'm not across that sort of detail.QuoteI don't disagree.QuoteWho says it will result in shipping nothing? All I said was that ignoring a risk was not "common sense".

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 11:03:41 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on August 07, 2022, 12:27:54 amIndeed.QuoteNot sure about timeframes (it has been a while) - but there are limits. If what is being referred to is the relevant information, then you could reasonably expect it has a definite state.QuoteIFthat is the patent, then it would seem there is no issue for the US. The legal status is showing as "Abandoned". BUT ... is that the patent of concern?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 03:37:44 pm
content: Sounds like a job for soft-tooling injection moulding.If you can make the part from Urethane or similar rubber-y material, then you can possibly use pouring to produce it.You are looking at maybe a few hundred USD setup costs and 1-2 USD part costs for these technologies, YMMW.I wouldn't worry about the patent at all.

author: geggi1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 07:01:24 pm
content: If you consider making your own caps or have them manufactured you should check if the connector is made according to a standard or if there are multiple manufacturers.In case the answer is yes on one or two of these two questions above i beleve you are OK getting it manufactured.If you require a larger number (500+) of these caps you might be lucky ask the manufacturer to buy a large volume.Usually manufacturers of parts are not interested in smaller orders. They might also direct you to where you can buy what you need.