DSO scopes with a good interface? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 07:52:17 pm
content: I know this is at least partially subjective, but I have quickly grown to abhor the interface on the rigol ds1054z. From the vertical space wasted on either side of the screen that doesn't disappear, the ridiculous button presses needed to remove measurements from the bottom of the screen, the inane menus and dials to change the channel for the frequency overlay, etc. It just seems poorly designed for usability. Having shared vertical and horizontal controls behind dedicated channel buttons is ok, but not preferred.My only other scope was an old Tektronix nonDSO with tactile knobs and buttons that just made sense.I've come to realize that lots of MHz isn't my first order concern... it is usability, especially around the DSO value adds.(I tried to search for similar topics but didn't see obvious matches.)Are other vendor scopes any better in the under say... 1-3k usd range?-j

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 07:59:16 pm
content: Keysight is king of the UI, has been since the Agilent days

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 08:30:06 pm
content: UI's are to some degree a matter of personal preference but along with that goes scope experience.Most DSO's to various degrees attempt to emulate a CRO experience, particularly with the displayed waveform.Some do better than others at that and with the front panel layout so that the transition from a CRO isn't so bewildering. However with the small form factor of many DSO's, much functionality is tucked into menus and/or sub-menus.How this is done and what shortcuts are also offered to speed scope usage is key to a good UI.Nowdays many encoders have dual functions as well as some function buttons that offer access to menus where settings can be made OR with the ability to toggle a feature ON or OFF.You don't have to shell out big $ to get a good and easy to use DSO these days.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 08:50:59 pm
content: Quote from: jasonbrent on March 02, 2018, 07:52:17 pmHow do you know it's "wasted"? The internal hardware might be designed around a 600 pixel area so turning the menu off wouldn't gain anything.Quote from: jasonbrent on March 02, 2018, 07:52:17 pmI'm not saying it can't be improved but it's what happens when have hundreds of functions and only a few buttons. Don't expect any other DSOs to be significantly better.FWIW: All functions can be controlled via a simple ASCII interface (you can telnet to the 'scope). Maybe you could add a little box at the side of it with a few more buttons for common tasks.Quote from: jasonbrent on March 02, 2018, 07:52:17 pmeg. Send this to clear ITEM1 from the screen::MEASure:CLEar ITEM1...or to clear all measurements::MEASure:CLEar ALLQuote from: jasonbrent on March 02, 2018, 07:52:17 pmIt also had afractionof the functions of your DSO. Try restricting yourself to usingonlythe functions that the Tek had and you'll find the interface isn't really much different.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 09:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 02, 2018, 07:59:16 pmI beg to differ. I like the GW Instek UI much better than the Agilent DSO7104A I had. Doing something simple like changing the probe multiplication factor and unit is real chore on the DSO7104A. The GW Instek OTOH even has a dedicated 10X button because that is the most used setting.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 09:26:28 pm
content: Ok, just another personal preference: I like the UI of my DS4014 and I liked the UI of my old DS1102E. I also like the UI of the Keysights 2000 and 3000 series. I don't like the UIs of the Tek TDS7104 or the TDS3054. I can't speak about others.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 09:33:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 02, 2018, 08:50:59 pmThat's something that bugs me with most of these DSOs. With a vertical screen resolution of 480 pixels (480x800), they can't even display two non-overlapping full scale 8-bit waveforms, let alone four... and that's before the wasted space.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 09:44:52 pm
content: The keysight 3000t 4 channel 100mhz lists around 4200, but has 30pct off with practically any trade in for this month it seems.Which is the point my wife would shoot me...

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 10:01:58 pm
content: Despite some quirks in the interface, the 10" touchscreen of the R&R RTB2000 adds greatly to the usability. YMMV wrt some related design choices like the lack of individual vertical controls.One thing where that scope blows away the competition is the web interface. No plug-in needed, full control and no lag. It is pretty incredible. I didn't think I would spend any time on it (I certainly didn't on the DS1000Z), but viewing waveforms, moving stuff around with a mouse and scrolling through segments with the mouse wheel on a 24+in screen is _very_ nice. It absolutely doesn't replace the buttons, but once you've set up your scope for the acquisition you want, it is very nice to be able to seamlessly go to the big screen + mouse.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 10:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: LaurentR on March 02, 2018, 10:01:58 pmThe UI design of the RTB is mostly good, but is let down by inadequate speed in certain areas.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 10:09:03 pm
content: The Keysight infiniivision win hands down. They're by far the most responsive DSOs I've come across. Spinning the timebase knob instantly updates the waveform, just like your good old analog scope.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 10:29:56 pm
content: Quote from: Lukas on March 02, 2018, 10:09:03 pmIt might be fast but they have a reduced number of physical controls for interacting with the dynamic onscreen content compared to the Tektronix scopes in the same brackets. I quite like the dual cursor/assignable knobs and concentric navigation knobs of the Tektronix scopes even with their slower response, and having many more menu buttons makes everything less deep on the Tek.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 10:33:57 pm
content: Can’t tell you about the best, but the worst I’ve used in this sense is the TDS744, it may take you 20 minutes to remove the single trigger and go to auto mode again just to give an example.If you need a portable you may like the micsig.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 10:55:28 pm
content: Appreciate the input folks. I know that "good" is completely subjective here. I simply haven't had exposure to many other scopes and wanted some insights. The Keysight 3KT and Tektronix MDO3K seem to be direct competitors and in the same ballpark with like for like configurations. It's pretty clear that the keysight is upgradable after purchase to the full configuration (although >350Mhz requires shipping it back), Tektronix doesn't make that information quite as clear. Maybe I'll be able to my hands on each of these at some point to see how the interface is.Both of these offer a 4analog/100Mhz option that can be upgraded over time if necessary. Maybe I'll win one of those keysight wave bundles and this will be moot.-j

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 11:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: jasonbrent on March 02, 2018, 10:55:28 pmR&S RTM3004 is also a MSOX3KT competitor, upgradeable from base to 1GHz

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 11:22:55 pm
content: On the ' affordable / getting your feet wet on the reasonably cheap' side of things... Siglent does it for me with 4 channel DSOs in 100 or 200mhzAll the relevant knobs and buttons are above each channeland has a separate trigger input, no shared 'lost' channelTherefore it was an easy experience jumping from CRO to DSO to CRO etcwithout getting Rigol'd with shared controls BSok it's not that big a deal but... no, YES it is when brain space is limited on a troubleshoot or test,I'd rather have WYSIWYG basic DSO knobbery,and hang any features and specs I probably won't need or use on a Rigol !Touch screen? No thanks, next we'll be stuffing about with 'apps', 'jailbreaks',...and 'iScope' gift card vouchers at the shopping mall

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 12:08:43 am
content: In the "list of vendor UIs that might not suck", the common base future upgrades appears to be 4ch/100Mhz, and these can all be upgraded to 1Ghz with real money.Tek MDO3014 - $4110 => hackable to 500Mhz+lots of decodes+spectrum analyzer ... easiest hack?R&S RTM2004 - $4230 => no real discounts at the moment, not-yet-hacked?Key DXO3014T $4158 => 30% off with a trade in of... any oscilloscope(?), = $2,910.6 .. Appears hackable to 350Mhz, + decodes?The keysight at ~$3k is entirely too tempting, although the Tek. appears to ultimately have more capability than the keysight.Now for me to stop dreaming...

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 12:42:17 am
content: Quote from: jasonbrent on March 03, 2018, 12:08:43 amKeep dreaming and keep up with the latest'gear I'll probably never own any time soon...'Youtube videos tooWorks for meunless a bargain pops up

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 12:45:36 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 02, 2018, 09:21:40 pmHuh? How often do you switch 1x/10x? It's usually about once a year, if ever.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 01:15:13 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 03, 2018, 12:45:36 amIf you don't have coded probes that the scope understands then it can be something that needs to be adjusted quite often when swapping between 50 ohm coax connections and probes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 01:17:53 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 03, 2018, 12:45:36 amIf that's the case then you're not using a scope very much or just doing similar simple and menial tasks !10x, most common normal probe usage1x, checking PSU rails for ripple, also very common probe use case.1x, BNC connection, eg. monitor AWG output while with another channel checking DUT amplitude/signal integrity/phase shift.Many other input attenuation settings are used for: Differential probes, Current Probes etc.OR invest in a scope that does input attenuation settings automatically............Quote from: Someone on March 03, 2018, 01:15:13 amExactly !

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 01:33:39 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 03, 2018, 12:45:36 amThink about current shunts, current probes, differential probes, etc.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 01:35:13 am
content: I've started a project to solve the problem. Don't expect a finished result any time soon. but I'm assembling a Zynq dev environment and have a Zynq based Instek as a test bed. And another Instek as motivation :-(I know slightly more than nothing about FPGAs but I'm an old PhD level DSP guy with lots of experience optimizing code for particular machine architectures. So the only thing I find intimidating about FPGAs is memorizing all the new acronyms and learning the software tools.A lot of the problem is what I describe as, "Oh! You want wheels with your car? We can do that. Tires on the wheels? We'll have to slip the schedule and go over budget, but we can do that." I worked as the lead scientific programmer on a project where the team lead had that attitude. I was appalled.One part of the software displayed graphs with a vertical X axis. The whole GUI group was enthralled by "Design Patterns" . So if the user requested 6 graphs, it drew one, erased the screen, and drew two, erased the screen and drew three and so forth until all the requested graphs had been drawn. I would sit with the scientist tasked with verifying the results of my code and he would giggle at the idiocy of it. We've been good friends ever since.If you'd like to contribute to the effort, creating a story board of what you want a DSO to do would be an immense help. I'm system level guy, not a UI guy. I know enough to realize that good general UI programmers are rare. I only know one.The statement of work is:Given a COTS DSO based on the Zynq, describe what the buttons should do and the screen should show. I can do that and will if I have to. But I can go a lot faster if I've got a good specification to follow. It would help a lot if it was based upon the Instek, but my goal is something easily configured to any Zynq based DSO with any set of buttons and knobs.

author: EE-digger
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 02:27:02 am
content: We have 3000X and 9000A series scopes at work but also a bunch of Rigols. I love the size of the Rigol but not the screen size as it pushes my old eyes to the limit. Text can be too small and the color is critical. Tiny yellow text and tiny purple text are two different things.On the 3000X series, the UI is good and quite fast to operate. On my 3000T at home, the touch screen is very well done with an excellent touch response and a nicely sized ascii keyboard if you don't use an external.BUT, the 3000T, IMHO, has blown it on some of the menus. I loved the way you could knock down measurements at a glance when you were done with them on the 2000/3000X. The 3000T is quite a PITA now as those discrete softkeys for each measurement in use are gone and you need to scroll the knob to see your active measurements. There are a few other PITA things like this but the scope is great in spite of that.Agilent, err, Keysight, rules in UIs. A few years back I heavily evaluated some brand new R&S spectrum analyzers but could not live with the extra keystrokes beyond what the HP offspring required. Still good today and much copied.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 02:43:08 am
content: @rhb - I wish I could provide you some of those answers. I too consider myself someone who can tell when something doesn't feel right, but couldn't design a UI to save my life.@EE-digger - appreciate the insights. The rigol size is good on my desk for sure, but the size of the screen is a challenge (and their "larger" font options aren't well implemented, IMO). The rigol is small enough that it's sitting on my desk under one side of my monitor.. but it's also small enough that it requires 2 hands to connect a probe so it doesn't slide off the desk.I wonder how responsive Agilent would be to UI change suggestions.. I find that most companies don't do a good job of listening unless you are their bread and butter...Ha ha, I wonder if my "DSLogic Logic Analyzer w/ Oscilloscope Module" counts for the keysight upgrade promo, they claim "any" oscilloscope as an acceptable trade... that'd be a good use of those kickstarter dollars.-j

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 03:23:51 am
content: Quote from: jasonbrent on March 03, 2018, 02:43:08 amUnless you have a dialogue with someone that has good contact with a manufacturer, well what do you expect ?Seriously, tell us what you want/need in a DSO UI and there will be a DSO that's very close to your requirements.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 03:52:47 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 03, 2018, 03:23:51 amtautech, I wish I could in quantitative ways... my intention here was to have a dialogue based on some observations of things I've seen painful in a singular device. Over my years I've come to realize that knowledge can be gained the hard way through time/trial/experience (and that is the best form of KNOWledge), but it can also come from the advice and experience of others. In this scenario, I simply desired inputs from others on their definition of "good interface".I'm a noob here that's gone from an old analogue scope and a couple of cheap handheld DMMs to a reasonably well outfitted "lab" in a short period of time. My equipment greatly exceeds my knowledge and experience.... Working on a repair, I realized quickly that the Rigol interface was more about rote memorization than intuitive interactions.* Little things, like the turning of the knob to control selection when multiple items are presented on the screen is completely backwards from my intuition; my brain says "clockwise should go down", but instead the selection moves up.* Selecting measurements using the left most buttons requires going to the "Measure" menu where you can get rid of measurements visually by going to the 3rd menu down, choosing "select item", then toggling them off,* However, as soon as you add another one, the one you toggled off re-appears....* To actually remove it you have to go to Measure->Clear->Delete.. but that doesn't really delete it, it just greys it out on the screen(!@!@#!). ]* Choosing "Delete all", actually deletes them all... until you add another measurement, then 4 greyed out ones appear and the one you added appears on the right...* .. So if your first 3 measurements were channel 2, you no longer need channel 2, you delete them, turn off channel 2 and add a channel 1 measurement, 3 greyed out measurements appear followed by channel 1.My intention isn't to just complain... functionally it's a great unit for the price point. I just wonder if there is another price point where these front-and-center niggles don't exist.With any bit of technology, my preferred interface is simply one that doesn't get in the way of stream of consciousness.</rambling....>-j

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 04:21:38 am
content: Quote from: jasonbrent on March 03, 2018, 03:52:47 amAnd you just have !QuoteThis is just basic UI poor design that I agree would drive me mad too.I've been very lucky to have had the 'ear' ofsomein Siglent where I've (and others) been able have changes implemented to equipment UI. This forum has been great to be able to bounce ideas about and come up with some very satisfying improvements to their range of gear.Little things like what you mentioned about encoder's rotation not being intuitive .....when I was lucky enough to be asked to be a beta tester for the new 4ch X-E, the encoder was just that; backward(for some operations, not all) AND at odds with all other recent Siglent DSO's ! Despite feedback from product managers it was pretty easy to show them of the inconsistency's across their range.Having features/functions of a similar type bunched together in one main menu and then the finer tweaks of the same type within a sub-menu makes for an intuitive experience not a frustrating one especially for those coming from a CRO, more so a real analog one where all controls are physical and on the front panel.That's where I've come from and that past experience helps guide one as to what tohopeto expect from a DSO.Keep looking and keep an open mind as not all DSO's offer the experience you've had.As I said earlier, you don't have to spend a fortune to get a 'easy to use and good' DSO.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 04:47:01 am
content: @tautech -- ha, that started out non-qualitative, but I apparently re-edited enough times to tease some points out and failed to update that line. oops.A portion of "day job" is, for a swath of my business, to ensure that it's "supportable". There are a lot of "-ility" words used (supportability, reliability, diagnosability, make-up-word-able-ility, etc.) but it basically means I look for things in our processes, our products, our people interactions that aren't intuitive, usable, consistent across product lines and get them fixed.... which means "niggly things can die in a fire." is a general self motto.I looked hard at the latest Siglent before picking up this DS1054Z, but a few years back I picked up a siglent (don't remember the model) and it DOAd within a week. I replaced it with a DS2072A that ultimately went to a friend as I put this hobby on hold. The experience with that one siglent made me gun-shy about their brand new product. The fact that they do listen to inputs from ${resellers, customers, etc.} is valuable knowledge.I'm not stuck on a particular name brand in general, however my expectations and criticisms of an Agilent/Keysight/HP/Tek/R&S would be greatly higher than "WanHungLo". I would rather pay $120 for something that will last 6 years than $20 for something that will last 1 year though (numbers/time at extreme just to convey the point..).... Useless bit of knowledge; in history past, I worked around a large american retailer^Wswindler beginning with wal and ending in mart. I became aware of their supplier purchase processes at that point in time... end result is for the consumer wanting to purchase a given product, let's call it PRODUCTX, if they bought it at this retailer it would be cheaper than another retailer and have the same product identifications.... However on the inside, PRODUCTX for this retailer would be made of lower cost parts that had a decreased reliability (plastic cogs instead of metal cogs, for example)...I appreciate the discourse, time and insights!-j

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 05:16:00 am
content: Quote from: jasonbrent on March 03, 2018, 04:47:01 amIf you've been here a while you'd have seen even the 'A' brands have had their share of troubles.Yep, and such is the speed at which this industry moves Siglent have had to come up to speed to ensure their brand is a viable choice.Just as they've been flogged online for past POS, if you only knew what was going on privately !There has been and are models in their range I will not stocknowand into the future. Theirgoodmodels give me and customers just no grief and of late any one I back publicly is due to good experiences, both customer's and mine.How your supplier handles any issues you may have is really the key to a good brand experience and as so many seek the cheapest source (often overseas) so support quality is mostly sub-optimal.I'll leave you be now to stew on all the feedback.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 09:25:26 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 03, 2018, 01:17:53 amThere's 4 connectors on the front of mine. It's not hard to designate channel 4 as "The Coax Channel", etc.Often you want the 20MHz cutoff filter with the 1x probe setting. That's two things to change every time... unless you have a "1x channel".

author: EE-digger
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 01:39:17 pm
content: I detest 1x/10x probes, primarily because the ones we have around are Rigol and the switch is cr-p. Usually go to very small coax with whatever end connection is needed.An associate recently lost several days of very expensive data collecting on a large system because the switch was flakey. This didn't show until massive post processing showed abnormalities in the data. Turned out to be the $^%& Rigol probe.Scope should have been Agilent and the probes should have been Agilent with USA, JAPAN or GERMANY on the probes. We had 3 of the 4 probes on a new MSOX3104A die in 3 months ! They were handled gently at all times and the scope was never suspended by any of themThese probes all said CHINA.Agilent wanted the scope returned before they would replace the failed probes. I had a battle with the support person, then their manager, who after 3 days of meditation, finally agreed to replace the probes only.Sorry for the digression but it was probe related.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 01:47:53 pm
content: Yep. All 'scopes should supply fixed 10x probes for primary use IMHO. A lot of problems could be avoided that way.With multichannel scopes a 50:50 mix of fixed/switchable probes would be perfect.(all we need is for newbies to know that the switchable ones areworse)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 03:06:18 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on March 03, 2018, 01:15:13 amNot just that but think about switching the range on a differential probe or current probe. Sure probes which can 'talk' to the scope make life easier but these don't work on scopes from a different brand or on different equipment. For example: I'm using low-Z probes on both a spectrum analyser and oscilloscope. And there is way more equipment you can use a probe on.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 05:04:12 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 03, 2018, 04:21:38 amInteresting notes about the DS1000Z interface, which I concur are pretty stupid and should be considered true bugs. Its bigger brother DS4000 does not have any of that (although it has its own quirks).The encoder rotation reminds me when I used a Mac laptop for the first time, where the direction of scroll is inverted when compared to Windows and Unix hosts.I also agree the 1:10 switching is important and deserves a button or at least an easily accessible menu to it - still drawing a comparison with my Mac laptop experience, several important keys are missing (del, pgup/pgdn, ins) and other functions require quite non-intuitive key combinations.Several years ago I was lucky that my oscilloscope probes were 10:1 fixed, as they saved its front end a few times. However, not everything that comes from the far east is crap - the probes that came with the DS4000 are RP3500A and quite good quality.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 09:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 03, 2018, 05:04:12 pmThere's much about scope usage that is 'personal' taste or methodology and if you think about how manufacturers might cater for the vast array of user preferences, it leads to quite a complex scenario.10x, 1x probes are the tip of the iceberg and for entry level DSO's they're perfectly fine providing the user understands the shortcomings of each.Spend a bit more and get to $1-3k and 10x probes are often standard and with auto-attenuation.1x usage is usually much less demanding and any of the cheap probes available online with serve 1x usage perfectly well.We all have such varying requirements of scope needs so how does any manufacturer attempt to cater for that ?In the upper level DSO's functionality to set users preferences aren't uncommon but in the entry level marketplace there's little that supported this feature until the X-E's came out last year.Now we can set the scope to our favorite settings, trace pos, V/div, timebase, input attenuation, measurements, trigger and pretty much all that you like to have as baseline settings when using a scope. User definable Default or with a couple of menu button presses, back to Factory Default.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 10:07:30 pm
content: Exactly. Manufacturers will never again be off the hook when UI is involved. As more powerful processors become available, the customization demands become higher and customers will make their budget decisions based on that - especially when other products such as cellphones and tablets skew this perception.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 10:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 03, 2018, 10:07:30 pmFunny you say that...........I've not long had W10 and while it's not hard to get used to after W7, the thing that really frustrated me the most was Office Picture Manager was dropped in later Office versions.WTF where they thinking ?Actually after a little research and a few free minutes, I found there's a free MS Share Point Designer download and in which you can turn OFF all other parts and just have the Picture Manager.Installed !

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 11:08:28 pm
content: QuoteThey could simply ask what we want and a finished product would be a damn good start, for stand alone usage I still require a real time clock for basic event recording and mouse support should be a standard feature surely, particularly with all the numerous drop down lists now on various scopes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 11:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 03, 2018, 11:08:28 pmMy forecast is that in a few years all oscilloscopes will have touch screens. In today's market touchscreen interfaces on oscilloscopes are still a bit of a hit &miss but it will improve.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 11:28:10 pm
content: In my case a touch screen would be completely useless as most of my test equipment is set back on a deep bench so reaching over is almost out of the question, hence my need for a mouse.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 11:36:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 03, 2018, 11:16:14 pmMuttley, the "simply ask" is already a tall order: opinions will vary greatly among the customer base. I, for one, don't care at all for a mouse (no space on the bench, always loved a keypress instead of a virtual one...) Obviously that, if processing power is enough, by all means make it an option. If not, then what would you sacrifice to implement that? Opinions would vary.Nico, that is a great point where even the A brands are still struggling to meet the UI and responsiveness we are used in our tablets and cellphones.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2018, 09:37:04 pm
content: As a point of interest, Keysight doesn't seem to consider Rigol (at least the ones I have) a valid trade in for their 30% off the 3000T series unit.. at least not without an exception (which I'm waiting on). Too bad they don't actually tell you that in their T&Cs before potentially wasting mine and their time.-j

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2018, 12:09:15 am
content: I'll just amplify what other's have already said. Keysight is the king of the UI. The responsiveness will spoil you for other scopes.In the $3k range, the 3000T is going to give you the nicest experience because of the excellent touch interface.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2018, 12:44:18 am
content: Quote from: GlowingGhoul on March 06, 2018, 12:09:15 amNo wonder. Everyone can make a scope which scrolls 1Mpts left/right. Try and do the same with 10Mpts or more!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2018, 01:25:23 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2018, 12:44:18 amThat is true, although other responsiveness "treats" go in favour of Keysights.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2018, 02:29:39 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2018, 12:44:18 amTo me it seems like responsiveness simply isn't a top requirement for other manufacturers. If you really want to, you can decouple the zoom/pan action from the actual waveform rendering. I'd be perfectly happy if the scope would show me a pixelated waveform while it's crunching the data and eventually updates the display from memory. For moving waveforms up/down, there's really no excuse in any sort of lag since the software just has to tell the FPGA/ASIC to draw the waveform somewhere else on the screen.OTOH, the otherwise decent RTM3000 don't even manage to scroll smoothly through menus. Heck, even my 6 year old galaxy nexus phone does much better.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2018, 12:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: Lukas on March 06, 2018, 02:29:39 amYep, I really don't understand the reason for lag in things like the vertical control. It should really have the same latency as the screen update rate.Therehasto be a reason (lagmustannoy the firmware programmers as well!), but I don't know what it is.I have asuspicionthat internally the scope is split into two parts, one CPU processing the input controls and sending commands to another CPU which is controlling the display. The commands are ASCII, exactly the same as in the programming guides:eg.http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20151218/MSO1000Z&DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdfIf the commands are sent over an internal serial interface and need to be confirmed then it makes some sense that there could be lag.This programming model might sound like lunacy to a video game programmer but it makes a lot of sense from a DSO point of view where you have to accept commands from various sources (eg. control knobs, Ethernet, USB)FWIW I've tried moving the vertical position on a Rigol DS1054Z via telnet and it has about the same responsiveness as using the knob.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2018, 11:01:02 pm
content: Keysight approved my trade in for 30% off the 3014T. Now to decide....

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 09:10:47 pm
content: Thank you all for the feedback here. It was useful; I ordered a DSOX3014T+DSOXLAN a few moments ago as a result... now time to put a couple of other pieces up for sell on rebay to recoup some costs, lol!-j

author: DIPLover
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 11:31:01 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on March 02, 2018, 10:33:57 pmSee, this is why UI is so subjective. TDS7xx series are my absolute favourite scopes of all time! The menu system and buttons on 2 sides of the screen make so much sense! I can get to anything I need in 3 button press tops.(I agree with your example though. Shift-Single Trig to go to single is fine. Would assume doing it again would put you back on Auto, but no. You have to do Acquire Menu->RUN/STOP only then exit menu and press RUN/STOP)I Never cared for any later Tek though. Don't like the new Agilent/Keysight 2000-3000 at all. I loved my Rigol 2072A and found the UI better than Agilent DSOX3034A. The menus would disappear to reveal more trace for one. FFT was gross though.Last summer I could finally afford an upgraded and calibrated TDS744A (internally a 784A now).It's huge and loud and hot, but the traces are sooo sharp on that weird color-LCD masked mono CRT! And I still find the UI the best.IT DOES TAKE HALF AN HOUR to activate DPO mode (InstaVu) on my 744A though. The D model is much faster in that regard.

author: nomadd
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 01:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: jasonbrent on March 09, 2018, 09:10:47 pmI have to agree with your comments on the Rigol - especially the inability to permanently remove "measure" choices. Drives me nuts. I've just upgraded to the latest firmware this morning in the hope that that "bug" would be fixed, Apparently not, as it's a "feature".Still, it seems to have retained the "hacks", so it wasn't a completely lost cause.As for your upgrade - nice. Still, I personally haven't quite got to the stage where I hate the Rigol UI so much that I'd spend TEN TIMES the price to be shot of it! Let's hope those couple of internal organs you are about to place on eBay bring in the much-needed upgrade cash.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 04:27:15 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 02, 2018, 07:59:16 pmI would say it even started while it was HP still (on later models). My HP 54610B is incredibly quick and easy to use, particularly considering its vintage (being early digital and all). If I am just working on simple analog circuit prototyping I am often tempted to use it instead of my other more capable scopes. Rigol feels like pedaling up hill by contrast.R&S has decent UI implementation as well, but you're right I think Agilent really nails it. I have two RF signal generators an Agilent and an R&S, and the Agilent one really stands out with how quick and easy the UI is.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 09:24:22 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on March 10, 2018, 04:27:15 pmI think I would agree with your statement on HP, although my experience with their test equipment is minimal. On the systems side of the house, some little things in HP/UX are still items I use as a reference point for "how things should be done". For example (c.f.https://docstore.mik.ua/manuals/hp-ux/en/5992-4826/ch01s03.html) to install software, they had a utility "swinstall" that could be used. It provided a text user interface.... personally, I'm a command line guy... but what was awesome about any of the HP Text User Interfaces (TUIs) is that one of the options was to provide you a list of all of the commands it actually ran under the hood. Great for learning, audit trails, etc. It was an amazingly simple concept that was a huge win in my book.-j

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 09:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: DIPLover on March 10, 2018, 11:31:01 amThat is what I liked about the Tektronix TDS700 and related series as well. My GW Instek scope has the same arrangement and it prevents needing to dive into many sub-menus like on the Agilent/Keysight scope I used to own.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 04:14:17 am
content: DSOX3014T arrived today (still waiting on DSOXLAN module)... and all I can say is Wow.The UI on this is just spectacular and I've only spent about 30 minutes futzing with it. Things just "make sense" and seem to "just work" without a ton of guesswork. HP/Agilent/Keysight definitely put more than a little thought on the user experience with this.I was thinking I'd keep the 1054Z as a secondary scope, but now I'm not sure...Appreciate all of the feedback... and yes it is "10 times" more than the rigol in terms of price, but it is likely worth it in the long run.Thank you all.*EDIT*: for what it's worth, IMO, keysight has the knob rotation for menu item selection backwards, also.... Maybe it's just because I'm left handed?.. Clockwise goes "up" the menu list, CCW goes "down"... I can't explain why that just feels wrong to me.-j