Uni Degree for someone interested in Arduino, programming, and electronics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: skillz21
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 09:59:42 am
content: I will be going to university in a few years and wanted to have a think about exactly what I want to do. I know I want something like Electrical Engineering, but I just want to make sure I pick the right one.My interests are Arduino programming, and tinkering with other electronic boards and components in general. I think I should be picking Electronics engineering, but I was told that there weren't really many job opportunities for Electronics Engineering in Australia (is this true?).Barring Electronics Engineering, how much of Arduino and stuff will I generally be getting if I were to pick an Electrical Engineering course at uni? Would this be a good choice? I know of subjects like Computer Science, but don't know too much about the content of these courses.Any suggestions/more info would be appreciated.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 10:54:10 am
content: If you're interested in that stuff, that's a good sign.Speaking from my experience (which is from 30 years ago):Courses etc. will be hard for many tinkerers. Most of it was math, physics and electrical theory for the first two years. Beeing interested and having a good understanding of nature's laws of physics really helps here, since basic electric/electronic engineering is applied physics in a special range of interest.Beeing able to think systematic and logically, and break down a problem into smaller ones while still having an eye on the whole thing helps with (applied) computer science, though there's a lot of very abstract stuff and strange math in computer science.For some courses you just have to learn and excercise hard, others may be easy to pass for you, while for others it might be the other way round.What you learn in the end, is not beeing better in arduino and tinkering stuff, but how to cope systematically and effective with all kinds of (technical or scientific or whatever) issues that you'll encounter in your life as an EE.Of course, this helps with arduino and tinkering.This is my condensed experience for aquiring my diploma (comparable to todays master degree) back then. I've heard from a friend (who aquired the todays comparable bachelor degree back then at some other uni) his classes were more practice oriented but very hard work.Todays system is different in some ways, there's more commercial and less scientific influence into the class contents, so you might learn more specialized and less general applicable stuff.For today, I'm rather disappointed from my career as EE, basically companies get larger and jobs more and more specialized and it's really hard to get access to challenging projects once you're somewhat longer term established in a job and don't want to change your employer for whatever reason. Most of the job is boring routine work now.

author: skillz21
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:03:10 am
content: Quote from: capt bullshot on October 24, 2019, 10:54:10 amWhen you say EE, do you mean Electrical or Electronics Engineering?

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:37:16 am
content: That's a language thing.In German, everything uni related electronics is (or was back then) called electric, so by literal translation I'm an Electrical Engineer. But beeing an Electrical Engineer most often means your job is about developing hardware, but not limited to that. Someone who plans electric distribution networks or large building installations (electrical kind of) would be also called Electrical Engineer here.There's a bit more of differentiation in the degree titles today, but the most universal (and highestly regarded) title would still be Electrical Engineer. Doktor Ing. (PhD of Engineering I believe) would still be higher, but is uncommon. Doesn't really matter once you're established in a job, but with the "better" title you could get more payment and more streamlined access to manager jobs if you like that.Most of the industries would prefer the lesser title for a new hire, since they're cheaper, and often they just want mindless work drones beeing a small cog wheel in a large gearset - of course they won't tell you that when they hire you.But as I said, most EEs here are working on system design, electronics, software, sometimes manager, so do I (working on electronics hardware in my job).Don't know how this nomenclature is handled in your country, here the Electronical Engineer would be the more specialized and less regarded (maybe not even an uni degree) variant of Electrical Engineer (which is always an uni degree).So, if you're wlling to learn hard theory and want to achieve a quite universal starting point into your career, I'd recommend the equivalent to our rather universal E(lectric) Engineer (Master) degree, this gives you a wider range of general fields to work, maybe somewhat better payment at your first employmentOtherwise the more specialized and less theoretical but also less general Electronics Engineer might give you easier access to more specialized jobs.I've been an avid tinkerer before and while uni, and still am, and looking back, the more general Electric Engineer was the better choice for me as I think a more general education helps a lot to specialize later on, the other way (if your education is specialized from the beginning on) is harder. This is for sure not a general truth applicable to everyone interested in electronics.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:41:59 am
content: Another hint:Read your daily dilbert comic. This is a quite near-to-reality ironic picture of the engineers life in a company ranging from mid-size to large and huge.As always in life, there are exceptions, but hard to find.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 03:03:00 pm
content: In the US, we have the Bureau of Labor Statistics and they have data on almost any occupation. As it turns out, they lump all Electrical Engineers together (utility/power with electronics) which skews the numbers but, in the end, EE is growing slower than average:https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/analogue_circuits/operational-amplifier-op-amp/analogue-differentiator-circuit.phpComputer Hardware Engineers is an occupation growing at about the average of 6%https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/computer-hardware-engineers.htmSoftware Developers is growing much faster than average. Note that this is a couple of paygrades higher than 'programmer' which is grunt level work:https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htmThere are other occupations in and around high tech, just think up a category and search.Now, all those pixels wasted, I have no idea how this applies in Australia. I assume you have a government organization similar the BLS, it might be worth the time to find out.At our local university, they have specializations and the one I hope my grandson gets involved with is Mechatronics as automation is going to dominate the work force for the rest of all time. It will always be a combination of mechanical, electrical and software. If a person can play in all 3 sand boxes, they will probably have a job for the rest of their career.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 04:49:54 pm
content: This short video will help you understand the Dilbert reference.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 05:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: skillz21 on October 24, 2019, 09:59:42 amThis is a good question. It is often difficult to understand what university is about until you get there, especially if it is still a few years away.One thing to understand is that university is not "more of the same, but more advanced". It is different from anything you can imagine now, like working on a different level altogether.For instance, in the early years of high school you learn basic skills--how to do things. In later years of high school you learn how to analyze and solve problems, how to use deductive reasoning and organize your thoughts. At university you learn how to learn, how to expand your knowledge, how to invent and be creative.So with the Arduino, it is not about more advanced tinkering with Arduinos and stuff. That you can do for fun and recreation. But who had the idea to invent an Arduino? How to design the concept and make it work? How to put hardware and software together to make a product people can buy at an economic price? That is the sort of thing you will learn at university.Also don't get hung up on electronics vs electrical engineering vs software vs computer engineering vs whatever. Your career is not defined by your university degree. Plenty of people graduate from university and branch out into something different from what they studied.A mix of both hardware and software modules in your studies would be valuable. More and more hardware is enabled and designed around software these days.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 07:49:07 pm
content: Ian makes at least two very important points:First, you aren't going to learn anything practical in college. If you want practical, do it yourself. Even the lab classes don't do much in the way of advanced applications. Maybe in grad school and certainly in doctoral programs, things might get practical.Second, your major isn't all that important. My degrees are in electronics engineering and I never spent a day in that field. Rather, I got into electrical design and project management. There are a number of reasons for that but, basically, I bought engineering, I didn't do engineering. That's not to say I didn't need to understand what I was buying, that isn't the case. I still had to tell the designers what I wanted them to design.You won't be surprised to discover that there is more money in telling engineers what to design than there is in doing the design.Again, I don't know anything about Australia but around here, it is assumed on entry to college that you truly understand PreCalculus. That is because Calc I is a first semester subject and you absolutely can not get through it without PreCalc. So that's a base point - PreCalc. It's a two semester class so it basically adds a year to the curriculum if you're not up to speed coming out of high school. Few are...Physics probably won't be scheduled until after Calc II so they have to fill the time with some useless General Education courses.There will be a math or math related class every single semester for 5 long years. If you don't do math, engineering is the wrong field. Calc I, Calc II, Calc III, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations cover the first 2-1/2 years followed by Control Systems, Field Theory and some other classes that are basically applied mathematics. Clearly, Circuit Analysis and Signals are nothing but math in a costume.Of the engineers that hang out around here, you can bet that every one of them was really good with math at the end of their education. It may take them a few minutes to get back up to speed but at one point they were really good at it. Show of hands: Who remembers the quotient rule? Why...What college does do is give you the skills to figure out how practical works. They won't teach you specific designs but rather provide the tools for you to do your own design.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 08:30:11 pm
content: As to the math thing: Remember that nearly every single one of the engineers hanging out around here sucked at math. It's just a matter of doing the work and learning the material. I can't even imagine how many engineers have gone before but if they can do it, I can do it. My version of "The Law Of Large Numbers". If enough people take the test, I'll pass.Don't let the math scare you off. Somehow, we all did it. And some of us did it with a slide rule versus MATLAB.As to MATLAB, our local university has a required course in the engineering school. They use MATLAB throughout the curriculum. This allows the students to work on the problem, not the arithmetic. They gain more understanding with less tedium (and dropped signs).Free hints: Symbolab.com for problem solving, Desmos.com for graphing, Khan Academy for their math videos and their Electrical Engineering videos. By all means, get familiar with MATLAB and LTspice.If you donate a bit to Symbolab, they will provide more detail in the solution. This is an amazing site! And, yes, I donate...Calcworkshop.com is a great set of math lectures. It is not free but it is worth every penny it costs. 3Blue1Brown.com is another great site.There is a lot of help available to students.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 02:14:44 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 24, 2019, 07:49:07 pmI am also in general agreement with the above. I will however making a slight modification to one of point above.Major doesn't matter as long as it is a STEM or related field. If your major is "Woman Study" or "Man Study" or something like that, it would likely matter. You may not be taken seriously if you don't come from a hard-science, engineering, or mathematics field.Ask yourself this: why do you like to tinker with Arduino? I suspect it is "fun", then you go the next layer and ask "why" again. Dig deep. You may reach a point you understand what makes you tick. Understanding "what really drive you" will make deciding "what path to take to get there" a lot easier.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 03:06:36 am
content: I'm closer to retirement than to University, but I'll give you the benefit of my experience.In my university, and I expect in most, the first two years were so similar for all engineering students that it was possible for someone to change from one engineering field to a different engineering field at any time during the first two years without losing much, if any, credit. My first year, I majored in ceramic engineering because that department offered me a scholarship. After one year, I transferred into mechanical engineering, because I liked geometry and Newtonian physics. But I was spending all my spare time in the computer labs, and I saw that mechanical engineering involved lots of thermodynamics, which I was not very interested in, so at the end of my second year, I transferred into computer science. At my school, computer science was about 60% software and 40% hardware design. Anyway, my point is that, once you get into an engineering program, it's OK to change your mind from one engineering field to another.rstofer said that engineering school won't teach you anything practical. I'd quibble with the details of that; I learned a few very practical things, but I would agree that the focus is on the theory more than the practice. What I would say is that a good university strives to give its students an education that will last a lifetime, instead of teaching the fad of the month. This pushes them to teach the theory, because any student who understands the theory can apply the theory to many areas of practice, including areas of practice that haven't been invented yet. (by "understands the theory" I mean a deeper understanding than "can parrot it back just barely sufficiently to answer the test questions").I don't know what the future will bring 40 years down the road, but I expect nobody will be making much money tinkering with Arduinos. But unless technological society suffers a total collapse, I believe many people will be making money creating and using electronic circuitry. I expect inductors, capacitors, and resistors will be in wide use. There will be analog filters, amplifiers, feedback loops, antennas (both intended and unintended), analog-to-digital converters, digital-to-analog converters, and lots of software driving all of that, among other things.I expect oscilloscopes will be displaying traces, and many of those traces will be good approximations of sine waves, exponential curves, and exponentially damped sine waves. Anyone who has taken a course in fundamentals of differential equations will know why: the solution to a first order ordinary differential equation is an exponential curve, while the solution to a second order ordinary differential equation is a sine wave. Nature is apparently extremely fond of first- and second-order differential equations. Engineers should become very familiar with the patterns that nature adores so much.Learn the kind of fundamental theory that will last a lifetime, and learn a few practical applications of it while you're at it, and you'll be set. Don't ever stop learning. If you ever feel like you're seriously on the wrong track, don't be afraid of a mid-course correction -- I've been to many retirement parties, and none of the honorees had figured out much of the course of their career by age 25.Don't forget to have fun!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 07:26:22 pm
content: Quote from: skillz21 on October 24, 2019, 09:59:42 amI skipped that part in my initial readings...If you have time between now and entering a university, I encourage you to study all the topics of PreCalculus now rather than wait until the lack of those skills slows your progress by a year when you eventually start at the university.https://www.khanacademy.org/math/precalculusAlthough it costs money and other Internet programs are free, I would still highly recommend anything Calcworkshop.com has to offer. Here is the PreCalc program. Note that it consists of 150 videos. That's a LOT of instruction. And she is a really good instructor!https://calcworkshop.com/precalculus/Note that the Calcworkshop videos are quite similar to what you would get in an actual classroom. After all, she taught the material for many years!Around here, there is some kind of entrance exam that diverts students away from Calculus and into a year long PreCalculus program and this diversion will add a year to the education process. That's good in that there is other time during the week for General Education classes which are mostly nonsense but it's bad in that it stretches what used to be a 4 year program that has grown to 5 years into potentially a 6 year program. My attention span just doesn't go that far.Of course, PreCalc assumes you have passed Algebra I and Algebra II. If not, Calcworkshop has a program for that as well. So does Khan Academy.FWIW, 150 videos would be exactly the same as taking a 1 hour class, 5 days per week, for 30 weeks. This turns out to be a lot like taking a year long program without holidays.You may wonder why I keep bringing up math when clearly the adventures are elsewhere. That's because engineering is all math. Nothing gets done by hand-waving, there are numbers all over the table.If at all possible, start early on the math stuff. It's nice to be ahead of the curve.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 09:26:46 pm
content: In addition to the excellent advice already given, I want to add something ... which may already be obvious to you ... which is that just because you decide to study electrical engineering, doesn't mean you have to give up tinkering. Just the opposite: working on your own projects now and at uni will:Put you in a better position to integrate the theory you learn into your experienceGive you natural authority to lead the direction of group projectsMake you a far more desirable candidate for jobs when you graduateOn that last point, a well-stocked GitHub account hosting your projects (code, schematics, PCBs, etc.) will set you apart. You should absolutely link it from your résumé, in the most enticing way you can.

author: GerryR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 10:41:03 pm
content: There is some very good advise, here, but it is sad to see the way universities have gone. I graduated in 1972, BSEE (as inElectricalEngineering). The University I went to had the typical "waste-of-time" courses during the first 2 years, but the engineering courses required lab time, which counted for 1/3 to 1/4 of your grade in that particular course. Lots of practical applications, with prof's that all had industrial, hands-on, backgrounds and excellent laboratory equipment. And, math is essential to engineering, period. You don't have to be a genius at it, but you need to know what works where, so you can break open the books (or computer program) to help your design or to help solve a problem. The same with the theory courses; without them, you'll spend a lot of time spinning your wheels, or re-inventing the wheel, so-to-speak.I've been an "Automation Engineer" for a good part of my career, but have also spent a lot of time working in military electronics (General Dynamics, Singer-Link, Textron Defense Systems...) and have done some Medical Electronic designs, as well. It was the BSEE degree that opened many doors for me. None of it has been boring; all has offered many learning experiences.My advise: Learn all you can, including the math and go for the BSEE degree. You'll never regret it! Did I mention that you should learn the math?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2019, 03:28:55 pm
content: Quote from: AG6QR on October 25, 2019, 03:06:36 amI'm 16 years into retirement! It's been great.QuoteAnd there is no better way to play with differential equations than with an analog computer. See attached waveform for Mass-Spring-Damper problem, a second order ordinary differential equation with an initial Y value of +1. You can see the exponential decaying envelope with the cos() waveform. Just exactly what we suspect. The RLC circuit has a similar equation.Nobody in their right mind is still playing with analog computing except for those that do. Lacking such a machine, it is really easy to do the same kind of thing with MATLAB and SimuLink. You simply plunk down integrators, summers and constant values and hit the Run button.The DE class was truly grim back in the days of slide rules. Every explanation started with "assume the solution is of the form ...". If I was smart enough to make the correct assumption, I wouldn't need the course. Now that I have had the time and tools to play with DEs, it starts to make perfect sense. Of course "the solution is of the form ...".Today, this would all be a lot of fun. Taking classes at night while working 40-60 hours per week was not an easy path. That's why the "retired engineer fund" is paying my grandson's tuition and books. He lives across the street from the University, how tough can it be to get there, ready to learn.Don't pay much attention to the patch cords. There are two separate problems patched: The Mass-Spring-Damper problem and the Swinging-Door-In-Restaurant (the swinging door that leads to the kitchen area) problem.Yes, I have too much time on my hands!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2019, 03:57:51 pm
content: Quote from: capt bullshot on October 24, 2019, 11:37:16 amImmediately after the MSEE program, sign up for an MBA program. There is no doubt that with an post-grad engineering degree, you will meet the entrance requirement for B school. Then, with MSEE and MBA in hand, skip the engineering bit altogether and run engineering departments. It pays better. If you want to tinker, do it on your own time.Remember, it's a job. If it was fun, they wouldn't have to pay you to do it. As an engineer, it is almost universally true that you won't get to pick and choose what you work on. Somebody with an MBA is going to make that decision.