beginner oscilloscope, choosing between vintage quality or modern cheap one - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Buildingthings
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 03:47:29 pm
content: First post here, greetings. I'm a quite experienced electrician, but just learning electronics repair, and would like to further my amateur radio hobby. I'm looking a a first scope to learn with. Would it be better to buy a cheap older analog scope on eBay built by a top maker, or a much more modern new digital one built by rigol or similar?All my meters are flukes and power supplies are HP, so I do appreciate the build quality of those brands. Budget about 400 Usd.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 04:11:32 pm
content: For repair, either aworkingold scope or a new scope would satisfy your needs.Make sure to include the cost of the rightclassof probe, so you don't hear loud noises followed by a deathly quiet.FFI:https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/scope-probe-reference-material/the seemingly inifine number of other threads on this topicDon't forget the old saying: "Tek for scopes, HP for everything else".Do understand the limitations of scopes, particularly the vertical noise/accuracy/resolution/linearity and how that affects what you can see with radio signals. Scopes are time-domain instruments; spectrum analysers are frequency-domain.

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 04:37:14 pm
content: If the $400 USD can buy you a new Rigol or Siglent scope I'd vote for getting a new scope. The modern scopes have a lot of extra features and conveniences you won't find on the older scopes. You may think that you just need to look at a waveform, but after you start using the convenience features that a modern digital scope has it's hard to go back to older technology.

author: bomp
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 06:52:28 pm
content: I have used both vintage and the modern cheap ones.The modern scope is a better deal plus you get awarranty. I have a $400 Siglent scope and love it.K

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 07:22:08 pm
content: I haven't used my old heavy scopes in ages. Mainly due to lack of desk space. My old analog scope is probably fairly fixable, but that's if you have all the real parts with the right spec's.New DSO's are so light and compact, and the screens are great. I have a Siglent SDS1104x-e, 4ch 100MHz hacked to 200MHz. I love it. I like it's style more than the cheaper Rigol's, but I never used one so IDK what I'd like about the Rigol's.I can't even remember what any, modern, low end big, name scope's start at. Except that they probably cost too much for me.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 07:31:39 pm
content: I am too a beginner - and i have both an old analogue CRO scope and a modern digital one - the old scope was not an A brand , probably not quite a B brand, but a basic 20MHz dual trace scope from Hung Chang, which I bought in the mid 1980s. I still have it and when I last turned it on it worked fine. I have returned to electronics recently and my last major purchase this year was a 300MHz dual trace MDO scope. To be honest for the electronics I actually do either would be ok - but hobbyists like their stuff regardless.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 07:43:19 pm
content: It depends a lot on exactly what is available to you on your budget. If you can pick up an old 20MHz C-brand scope in working condition for $50 or less, then perhaps that is a good starting point and something to learn with. Otherwise, skip the antiques.I have some of each and I've had and sold a dozen more and I think an entry-level B-brand DSO is far better than any old CRO 99% of the time. Any CRO that would even be remotely competitive to something like the Siglent SDS1104X-E would probably be fairly expensive anyway. Very cheap DSOs may lack many of the features that make them useful nowadays, so your minimum price point is probably $400, at least in the US. I don't know what that translates into locally for you.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 07:54:09 pm
content: Buy a modern DSO.CRT 'scopes are not really suitable for shipping, odds are you'll receive a box of shards.

author: Buildingthings
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 03:20:34 am
content: Thank you for the thoughtful replies. Shipping heavy old machines here turns a 50 dollar one into a 200 dollar one, so that seals the deal, off to shopping for a new machine.I have read a few good reviews for that Siglent SDS1104x-e. I can have it at my door for 457 USD, budget made.I have a LOT to learn about probes. Will start with this videoand play with the Siglent ones first.It seems to have enough features to keep me learning for a long time.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 05:24:59 am
content: depends on how deep you want to dive in to radio hobby (building your own tx rx circuits)for RF adjustments is spectrum analyzers and frequency counters27MHz SSB BW ~200Hz keying

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 06:52:53 am
content: I have shipped and been party to the shipment of CRT scopes and picture monitors more times than I can recall or count. I can't remember a single time when one was broken upon arrival - except when a broken one was sent in for repairs. A few years ago I sold my old Tektronix scope and shipped it from Texas to California. The buyer said it arrived in the same condition it was in when I shipped it.The thing about shipping electronics and many other things is PACKAGING. If it is packed correctly, it will arrive without damage at least 99.9% of the time. That's 999 times out of 1000 for the math challenged.When packing electronics I like a double box. The item in an inner box with packing on ALL SIX sides of it. It should not be possible for the item to move inside that box. Not in any direction. Not if dropped from a 12 foot/4 meter height. Then that box is sealed and packed inside a second, box that has at least 1"/25mm space on ALL SIX SIDES. That space is packed with packing material so that the inner box can not move inside the outer box. There are other ways, but this is the least expensive one. For items that must be shipped multiple times, you can purchase fitted cases with foam material custom fitted around specific items. They also work very well.Quote from: Benta on October 15, 2022, 07:54:09 pm

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 07:10:17 am
content: Quote from: Buildingthings on October 16, 2022, 03:20:34 amYou better believe it too ! For those with the budget it's unlikely the hobbyist will ever exhaust its feature set.We have 3 cheaper Siglent scopes in stock yet SDS1104X-E outsells them all added together !Most customers have done their homework and that's what they want but others want to go through the selection process with you and investigate the why and why nots. Most often despite it being the dearest in this class of instrument it sells itself as the feature set while something you might not need now is something you can grow into.Good choice, enjoy !

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 08:23:30 am
content: I have both, yet I'm using the DSO only, while the vintage one is just sitting there gathering dust.I'll say forget about the vintage ones. They are good, but not very practical these days, they draw a lot of power, they heat, they are big and bulky, heavy, and most of all they are missing a lot of features that modern DSO have.Buy a new DSO, a Siglent with 2 or 4 channels would be the best pick for that budget, or maybe a Rigol 4 channels.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 08:50:57 am
content: I also recommend the purchase of one of the modern, digital scopes. I have a Hantek DSO2D15 and it has better bandwidth and more features than almost any of the old school, Tek scopes that I have used for many of my years in electronics.There are two specs where I would wish for a bit more. The first is the A-D converter's bit depth. My scope has an 8 bit encoder which provides 256 discrete levels. Although it has been over a year since I made my purchase, at that time this was common in the moderately priced digital scopes and I suspect it still is. That limits the screen's resolution and even the built in Voltage measurements. But for most tasks 256 levels are enough. The second is the horizontal sweep. While this scope is as good as or better than (in some areas MUCH better than) the mostly Tektronix analog scopes I have used in the past, it does lack the more advanced time base/delayed triggering that some of them had. Again, this is not a major disadvantage for 99.9% of the work I do and will do with it, I can miss it, can't I. I had carefully gone over the specs of this and several other scopes in the same price range so I knew what I was doing. No complaints.On the other hand, it has many features that none of the analog scopes had, even to this date. Things like spectrum analyzers, advanced triggering modes, a built in signal generator, and many more. I have had it for over a year and am still learning about the features. And those analog scopes cost about ten, twenty, and even more times as much.In today's world, the digital scopes, even the less expensive ones, are the way to go.A word of caution: there are very low end digital scopes available. They are the electronics only and need to connect to a computer to use it's display. Some may be very good. But others, while they do meet their advertised specs, are somewhat difficult to use. I have one such scope and it is somewhat difficult to get the needed combination of sample rate and sweep time set to allow a given waveform to be displayed. It does have a number of digital only channels so I like it for that, but it lacks even a separate, analog trigger input. I would avoid that style of scope unless you can get a hands-on demo first.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 08:58:31 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2022, 07:10:17 amYup. They are a much steeper learning curvefor a beginner.I've seen too many people not realise/understand what's happening on the screen because the important/relevant control settings were buried somewhere in a menuing system. They hadn't explored it because they didn't understand the terminology and hence couldn't understand the significance.Thatshouldn'tapply toexperiencedengineers.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 10:48:27 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 16, 2022, 08:58:31 amMuch depends on how the UI is configured. Select a channel button and the channel becomes active and the channel menu is displayed. Touch Acquire menu and its menu is displayed, same for Trigger and so on. In reality it doesn't take long to become familiar with all basic scope operation which one should before venturing into more complex areas of the feature set. Then again, with the internet today guidance is just a click or two away as are the numerous videos diving into the deeper capabilities of the modern DSO.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 11:00:07 am
content: Quote from: Buildingthings on October 15, 2022, 03:47:29 pmWith a $400 budget I wouldn't buy a used scope. There are 4CH Rigol or Siglent scopes for this price that are excellent and will do you for a very long time. Although it depends on what price you can get them for in Singapore.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 11:03:28 am
content: Quote from: Buildingthings on October 16, 2022, 03:20:34 amExcellent choice. Yes that will last you a very long time. For everyday scope use you will in fact never outgrow it.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 01:43:42 am
content: yes, most posts are right on. for the $400 spot.I have the Siglent SDS1104x-e, 4ch 100MHz, Have a Rigol 70MHz hacked to 200MHz. love them both have had for years. I actually bought a 200MHz Hantek new. It's two channel and rarely use that.I feel $400 for a new scope is really "sweet" spot for hobbyists and small time repair buss

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 09:26:35 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2022, 10:48:27 amThe UI configuration is critical, of course. (I've seen some truly bizarre ones, e.g. vertical sensitivity labelled "cal", FFS!)You describe a multilevel "menuing" system. They are always worsefor beginnersthan everything being visible on the front panel where you can "seewhat you don't know". Every multi-level menuing system has the same fundamental problem as the Dewey Decimal system, e.g. do you put a book on repairing an antique car in the vehicles or antiques or engineering shelves.As for the internet, Sturgeon's Law applies - and beginners can't distinguish. When it comes to yootoob vids, Sturgeon was an optimistWhether a beginner delves deeply into the "arcane" features of an instrument depends on their motivation. We are not typical users! Many people are only interested in their problem, not in the tools used to solve their problem.

author: Buildingthings
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 01:38:28 am
content: I have to admit, I had to lookup Sturgeon's law. Wildly appropriate for YouTube.The old school type of instruments, with switches and dials that I can glance over and see where they are set (or more importantly where they are not set) is still so compelling to me. I do believe that this will make a comeback to some degree.The new DSO, menus and all, is on the way from Jeff Bezos to Singapore. Local shops cant beat his price or warranty.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 02:22:21 am
content: Quote from: ledtester on October 15, 2022, 04:37:14 pmSimilar thread here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-a-rigol-mso5000-overkill-for-a-hobbyist/?topicseenYes, for $400 you'd buy a new 4CH Rigol or Siglent, no contest.