Another "wiring pen" is born - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 09:27:30 am
content: I use the subtractive method when I make things (lathe and milling machine) but it occurs to me that my design would be fairly easy for someone to copy with a 3D printer. All my stuff is Open Source.The pen probably came from Office Works (Australia).https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/prototyping.html#prototyping

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 08:56:08 pm
content: We purchased the 0.2mm polyurethane enameled red wire because of the claimed "easy soldering" in a blob of solder.Frankly, seasoned persons here tried hard with it, the enamel gets removed, but definitely not in an easy way..

author: jaromir
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 10:38:27 pm
content: My experience with enameled wire is that enamel burns with lots of flux (approximately one or two Rossmann units) and soldering iron cranked up very high (350C and higher) - ie. not the typical prototyping setup, where I tend to use nothing but flux from solder wire, iron set up to 300 or 310C.Higher temperature burns enamel, as well as flux, leaving dark residues on soldered point, as well as making much more smoke and unpleasant odour than usual soldering process. For me, working with enameled wire means more messy and slower work than usual 30AWG Kynar wire and stripping each end. Perhaps I don't have the right enameled wire, don't know.YMMV

author: rfdes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 10:59:22 pm
content: Years ago while working as an engineer for Raytheon, we were able to obtain enameled 'magnet' wire that was intentionally designed to allow the coating to be burned off with a soldering iron. This wire was only allowed on prototypes and was forbidden for production. I wish I could remember where it was purchased but we are talking the mid 1980's. Maybe another board member has additional information on the low-temp wire I am referring to.Jim

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2019, 11:14:24 pm
content: I used to use the Verowire system, which also uses polyurethane coated wire. It can make a tidy build (not, perhaps as tidy as techman-001 has managed!) but I could rarely get the insulation to burn off in the joint.It helps if the insulation is already cut (as at the end of the wire) - I guess the solder wicks along the copper from the cut end - but in many cases I could only burn it off in mid wire by placing the wire in a bead of solder on the iron itself and cooking it.I'd still use it if I had a small amount of very fine wiring to do, but mostly I prefer kynar insulated wire. It's hard to strip, but at least the remaining insulation is resistant to damage with soldering heat.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:25:58 am
content: Quote from: imo on May 05, 2019, 08:56:08 pmI'm wondering if the wire was actually polyurethane because the stuff I have always used is very easy to remove with a soldering iron.My source is a old transformer winding copper wire, but perhaps the spools of wire one purchases online are stuff that can only be only removed with a knife, and simply called "polyurethane" to sell it ?These days one has to question everything for sale from China because of outright fraud or just poor English.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:30:29 am
content: Quote from: artag on May 05, 2019, 11:14:24 pmI agree that this method is only easy at the end of the wire not the 'middle' where it's harder, so I don't do that. I do pass a bead of solder on the iron tip over the end of the wire to remove the insulation however.The wiring picture isn't mine, I pinched it from the excellent (but old) elm-chan site!

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:41:40 pm
content: Firstly, well done on that wiring pencil,it looks damn good.Now, wire, I have had good results with the 0.16mm enamelled copper wire from 'The Scientific Wire Company' in the UK. If you click on enamelled wire you will find that one of the options on the left is 'solderable' and it's available in a range of different sizes.https://www.scientificwire.com/acatalog/ec-wire.htmlFinally I have a question. The boards produced by Elm Chan look fabulous but I cannot figure out how wires are run that connect to more than two points. Imagine the data bus on a CPU card where each line may connect to six or seven chips, do I attempt to connect more than one wire to a pin? The Verowire system ising DIP devices had this sorted as you just daisy chain from one pin to the next.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 05:03:25 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on May 06, 2019, 04:41:40 pmThanks! this pen was my second design, the first one was too complicated (as usual).Awesome wire referral, I'm sure everyone here will be glad to finally see a supplier of solderable wire they can rely onThe best way is to connect two wires per pin if doing a 'daisy chain' but if your wire insulation is easily melted then you could use the one wire and connections along its length, but Elm Chan doesn't do that, he prefers the two wires per pin which does help give his neat layouts.In a way the old wirewrap system also used this technique of one wire from pin to pin, even when a 'daisy-chain' was required. Wirewrap also held the connections firmly which solder doesn't so when soldering with enameled wire each wire needs to be fixed somehow so they don't move when another one or even two wires are soldered to the same pin. This 'fixing' can be via double sided Kapton tape or superglue or careful tensioning of the wire against the pin.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:26:24 pm
content: If somebody knew the source of themagic"polyurethane enameled magnet wire" Elm Chan is using in his great video, we would appreciate giving us the linkhttps://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22265444

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 08:23:15 pm
content: Belden 8057 (34AWG/0.16mm) is the one that I use. I think Beldsol is the product line. It was like $80 for a ~250g spool, but that's like 1200m, so basically a lifetime supply for anyone who isn't elm-chan. It's rated to solder at like 400C, but I find it generally works with a ~360C iron except that as others have mentioned it's harder to solder to the middle of the wire.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:34:12 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on May 06, 2019, 04:41:40 pmThis is exactly the kind of wire needed, the insulation melts at 150C and is available in various sizes in green and red, 180C for orange.Minimum buy is 6KG, at around £66 + shipping, which for 0.2mm wire would be enough to the Moon and back! Ok, not quite that far but more than Elm Chan would use in a lifetime. Spool it off into smaller pen sized spools and sell locally, send spools to your friends for Xmas ?A very professional site indeed, thanks German_EE !

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 02:10:47 am
content: I bet that Magnet Wire Specialties has some wire suitable for this...

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 06:22:39 am
content: It could be we got the 180C (or higher) rating (bought on ebay from China) - and the 155C vs 180C makes the difference.This is the ebay link we bought it (2016) fromhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/polyurethane-Enameled-Copper-Wire-Magnet-Wire-2UEW-155-0-2mm-Red(not active anymore).

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:55:53 am
content: IME with enamel coated wire, stripping goes much better in a solder pot. You dip the end in, then you "swish it around" a bit, and the result is very clean and easy. This movement lets the enamel get stripped away, rather than melting in place and staying on the wire after you remove the heat source. The insulation turns into a little bit of scuz that forms on the top of the pot.Of course, this isn't gonna help for the second end of the connection when stringing it along with a pen.This is why I use kynar wire for prototyping where possible. The insulation is much bulkier, of course, but it strips really easily and leaves a perfectly clean, tinned/silvered wire end for easy wetting. And being able to break the insulation cleanly in the middle is a huge advantage. I almost always solder the second end of a connection like a "middle." I break the insulation, solder that second connection, then cut off the excess wire. By doing it like this, you don't have to turn the entire pcb around 180 degrees to get the second connection to take. I do not even use tweezers while using kynar wire, my left hand just holds the wire, sometimes wrapped around my fingertip. My right hand does the stripping and the wire bending/forming, using a combo chisel/stripper. So while I have to change between iron and strip/bend/cut tool, the ability to strip in the middle more than makes up for it, IMO. If doing a lot of wiring, I sometimes put the spool on a reel, near the project, and just keep it going in one long string. But it's normally easier to just pull off a long piece and keep going until it runs out. So when I'm wiring up a project with the 30AWG kynar, my trashbin receives a lot of leftover ends. I have a 1000 foot reel of kynar at my bench, on a dispenser/cutter. I use this stuff quite a lot, both soldering and with wire wrap.If doing tight connections to IC pins in close proximity, it is often just as well to use bare wire and to keep the wires short. IME, shorts are a much easier problem to see/avoid/diagnose/fix than bad solder connections due to dirty wires. Basically, the possibility of creating a short between wires (and not realizing it) does not really worry me. Airgaps are fine. Conformal coat or box it up when it's done. But I'm not hand-wiring multiple SMD IC's with no protoboard or PCB... that's just not important for me. Anything that involved is easier to do in CAD, making an actual PCB, IMO.

author: AlessandroAU
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:01:14 am
content: Quote from: imo on May 05, 2019, 08:56:08 pmI do this all time. Get a fat blob of solder on the tip of the iron, push the wire in and run it (the solder blob) over the wire end a few times and the coating disappears in seconds.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 07:19:00 am
content: I've wound my share of small transformers with magnet wire, and it's always a huge pain. Every time. Magnet wire is not fun.Just the thought of doing a whole board of point-to-point IC interconnects with magnet wire on fine pitch parts makes me want to jump off the building. Why is this still a thing, like etching your own boards at home? Inexpensive, professionally made, multi-layer, small batch, quick turn PCBs is a solved problem.That dispenser pen is pretty cool through. Just wish it wasn't dispensing something so miserable as magnet wire.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 10:43:52 pm
content: I bought some vintage Oki wire wrapping pens, once, with spools on the end. They came used and filled with what looked like polyester or polyurethane insulated wire. It had a 30AWG single core conductor, but the insulation was thicker than kynar.The wire ran through the pen and out the wire wrapping tip. There was a slide switch on the side to lock the wire, but I never figured out what the purpose was to any of this setup or how it was used in practice. If you locked the wire then tried to wrap, the wire would tension and split the insulation before it eventually broke, so you'd end up with a super widely spaced wrap with insulation between the strands... but it still wouldn't make a connection to square post more than once in a blue moon.I'm still so curious what the point of these things is. And I hope to find out some day what they are for (but I hope that they totally suck... because I repurposed/broke them all).

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 11:32:26 pm
content: You are probably thinking of Vector Slit-N-Wrap tools. They let you do wire wrapping without having to strip the ends of the wire.

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 11:53:13 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 08, 2019, 10:43:52 pmLong time ago, I had one that worked fine and I used it all the time. However, the pen only works properly when the lock slide tensioned the wire exactly correctly. When the tension is correct it gave slightly and the insulation came off around the pin as you wrapped. But the pens were cheaply built and over time the tension became too little and the insulation stayed on...so useless. I noticed that they completely dissapeared after a few years, guess this was why. The wire is also unobtainium.Hmmm. What we need is a combination wiring pen soldering iron. While you are wrapping the enamel insulation is automagically burned off.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 12:01:02 am
content: ^Thanks for that. It was a bulky blue plastic pen, right?I dunno, the tension on mine were tight enough for the wire to break while wrapping. But the insulation split like a banana, still in one piece but with the wire exposed in places out the side of the seam. Maybe it was the wrong type of wire. I tried kynar, and that didn't work at all. Maybe it is supposed to work with CSW kynar, but after wearing out, the pervious owner tried using thicker poly insulated wire? edit: Oh, I see you are supposed to use special "unobtanium" wire.I still don't get where the insulation is 'posed to go after it breaks, though. And it's weird when you wrap a wire but the coils are on the bottom and the wire is up top.QuoteI should have kept the set intact. Then pawn it off on eBay ten years later (that would be about now) for triple what I paid. The shape/appearance of the tool suggests it could be super useful if it worked, but I had no clue how it could do what it appeared to be made for. Part of the reason I bought it, I guess.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 01:15:37 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 08, 2019, 10:43:52 pmI have one of the exact same pens and often use it when I want to wire point to point with the 0.5mm soft plastic coated wirewrap wire on the pen spool. I use the 'lock' on the side of the pen to hold the wire while I strip the insulation off using a old "U" shaped stripper built into a square stand alone dispenser containing the same wire. The wire is stripped by first pushing it into the "U" then pulling it thru, which without the lock would be impossible. This allows a manual strip of the first end of the wire before soldering, but the second end requires the soldering iron tip to melt the insulation off which is very messy, fills my sponge up with gunk, and tries to blacken my soldering iron tip.In the old days, I used to use this lock on the pen to first strip enough insulation for wire wrapping as I never trusted the wire wrapping connection with the insulation attached.Because my 'wire wrap pen' lock was only used along the axis of the pen, the pen is still in perfect condition. I imagine I bought it around 1985. But as nothing lasts forever, especially plastic things, I expect it will just fall apart on my desk one day. I'm surprised its still in perfect condition after thousands of uses over the last 40 years.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 01:44:43 am
content: Quote from: imo on May 06, 2019, 06:26:24 pmProbably stuff from these guys:http://www.sunco35.com/I buy my wire from this place in Akihabara, if you scroll down you can see it's still sold it in spools for the wiring pens, but no-one sells the actual pens anymore.https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sengoku.co.jp%2Fmod%2Fsgk_cart%2Fsearch.php%3Fcid%3D3484

author: gibbled
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 01:46:33 am
content: I have something like this in the mail from aliexpress...https://www.aliexpress.com/item/MECHANIC-jump-wire-pen-phone-motherboard-fingerprint-flying-line-pen-repair-FBX08s-for-iphone-x-8/32922415769.html

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 02:02:50 am
content: Quote from: gibbled on May 09, 2019, 01:46:33 amI always wanted a Wozniac fingerprint flying line pen !

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 02:36:40 am
content: ^That's what I made out of one of my Oki wrap pens. I never found it very useful, though. I just keep a 1000 foot reel of wire in a dispenser, on the bench.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 02:45:11 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 08, 2019, 12:55:53 amI can relate to all of your points, you have obviously a lot of experience in this areaI'll be trying to deadbug some pins on a WLCSP64 BGA soon as I don't have the facilities to pcb or reflow one for a prototype, and at $0.90 for the mcu if I screw it up, well ... who cares ?The picture is a 32 QFN STM32F051 using 0.5mm dia bare silvered wire and a soldering iron tip of about 5mm as my fine tip was worn out at the time. It worked fine with no shorts, first time.

author: mikron
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 05:16:13 am
content: I just noticed that wire wrap pens are still available, e.g. this one:https://www.reichelt.de/faedelstift-wire-wrap-werkzeug-faedelstift-ww-p220367.htmlThe data sheet has a warning:When soldering through polyurethane enamelled wire a small quantity of TDI gas is produced. Use in well ventilated room.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 05:28:12 am
content: Funny how terms evolve. I don't know German, but that doesn't look like it can do a wire wrap.I have seen these called vero pens or wiring pens. "Wire wrap" might be the right word in German, or maybe it just gets the right viewers/hits.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 05:54:25 am
content: Quote from: mikron on May 09, 2019, 05:16:13 amAs KL27x said, that pen isn't for wirewrap, it is a enameled wire dispensing pen to do exactly the same job as mine.A wirewrap tool will always have a metal barrel with parallel sides long enough to contain the winding and strong enough to take the strain.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 08:15:53 am
content: Quote from: mikron on May 09, 2019, 05:16:13 amFrom wikipedia:Quote

author: Ghull07
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 02:17:15 am
content: What about the types of bobbin holders used for fly tying? (in the fishing community)Ceramic low friction barrels, adjustable tension, and commonly used with much finer and more fragile filaments than 30set wire.It’s an idea

author: Ghull07
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 02:24:02 am
content: I have similar to the one in my attached photo. They range from $5 US and upthis one is adjustable tension… It is about $20. Much finer than these wiring pencils I have seen. And the barrel is ceramic so it is totally heat proof.https://www.caddisflyshop.com/stonfo-elite-bobbin.html

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 01:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 09, 2019, 05:28:12 amIt's nothing more than a mistake by a data entry drone. "Wire wrap" in German means exactly what it does in the original English.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 03:54:38 pm
content: maybe you need to debur the outlet of the pen with a fine stone, if its a cylinder meant for dispensing grapite it might be sharp for plastic on wire

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 06:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: AlessandroAU on May 08, 2019, 01:01:14 amYes, I use this method as well with enamelled 0.2mm wire (I have a 500g Rowan Cable bobin that seems to last forever)Works fine.Don't expect to be able to solder the end of the wire directly without running it through a solder blob for a few seconds first as you said. That would be handy, but it just doesn't work. And I guess any protective layer that would allow this would probably be very fragile, would tend to melt past the point you want it to melt, and would probably not be as durable...

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2022, 12:11:20 pm
content: An update - after the wire spent several years gathering dust on the shelf I've tried again with the same 0.2mm red 155C polyurethane enameled wire, this time with my old Weller 50W/24V iron (with a bit larger temperature compared to the old iron I used to use before)..The coating at the end of the wire disappears in 2 seconds in a blob of solder at the iron's tip. When soldering the coated end of the wire to the pcb (ie. near a leg of a part soldered in) I need 4 seconds to get rid of the coating. When passing a length of the coated wire along the leg I need 7-8 seconds to get rid of the coating. Thus it works with higher temperatures, it seems. Soldering onto a pcb or when not at the wire's end will cool down the wire a bit thus you would need much more time to de-coat it..

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2022, 10:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: AlessandroAU on May 08, 2019, 01:01:14 amCan confirm. Have done this recently with earbud wire that is enameled magnet wire coiled around a fiber core.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 03:57:50 am
content: pen is..... heh...