EEVblog 1679 - Why Does This Uni-T AWG Cost $5800 - BOM Cost Analysis - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2025, 09:09:51 pm
content: Why does the Uni-T UTG9504T abitary function generator cost US$5800?A teardown and detailed BOM cost analysis of how much high end product designs costs, and the margins involved.#

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 08:59:40 am
content: I think the costing is mostly spot on. The only thing underestimated is the mechanical parts, and firmware. Injection molds that are this big are going to be expensive, even in China. And you need a lot of fine tuning to get it all right, no warping, things snapping properly, no flow marks.30-50K per mold, for two molds, even amortized is significant, plus you need someone working on that for "a year". So I think 20 for the mechanical is underestimated, but I'm happy to be corrected if someone knows more about these.I think assembly cost was also on the lower end, it feels low for such a PCB. They might be doing XRAY by default, and it's many many parts. Plus yield on such complex boards is going to be significant to mention, adding to the cost price per board sold.I think the ~x2.5 rule will apply to the lowest end of this product range (same with scopes), and higher frequency is going to be proportionally more expensive. You pay for the extra bandwidth extra.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 12:08:29 pm
content: relay price on LCSC is $0.5on mouser it is about $3.1(1000pc)gee weez

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 12:51:42 pm
content: There are quite a few small parts in the power supply (e.g. all the impressibe filtering).Even if not really worth it for the bare PCBs, it makes still sense to look at the failing units. Knowing what sometimes goes wrong helps to optimize the manufacturing. Much of the repair costs can be finding the fault. If they later actually do repairs is a different point - some repairs are easy, while reflowing the FPGA and maybe already the DACs could be too complex.For the final product price the availability of competing products (same manufaturer and competition) can be a large factor. If there is no real competition they can earn more on a product.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 01:47:39 pm
content: Beyond BOM cost, there's of course all the R&D, production, marketing, sales costs, plus all the distribution chain and taxes up to the final consumer. So that adds up very quickly and the margin is probably not nearly as high as one may think.Not sure I would personally shell out $5800 on a Uni-T product, but that's just me and probably a lot psychological.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 03:03:27 pm
content: I think assembly and custom manufacturing costs are grossly underestimated. First of all, I don't think they do all 5k units in the single batch - that's a lot of money to lock in the inventory, so they most likely manufacture it in batches of 100-500 units at a time, and run additional batches as previous inventory getting sold). That means that will have to pay PnP setup fee multiple times - once for each batch run. And the same goes for other custom parts - not many companies are prepared to lock in $5M (5k units x $1k per unit - I think this is more reasonable cost estimate than $800 featured in a video) in hope that they will actually be able to sell it all in a reasonable amount of time (time is important too because warehouse space/time cost money).

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 03:24:27 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on April 15, 2025, 03:03:27 pmon the distributor pagethere is something like 22 countriesi suppose there is a discount ladder for qtybut i think nobody will order 10 units to keep in stockmaybe the first batch is only 50 units ?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 06:54:14 pm
content: The production batches would likely be smaller than 5 K units. The 5 K is more the number expected to sell overall before a major revision is needed. So the one time costs would be divided by this.For such a product the warehouse space is less of an issue. The point is more like the capital and expected price drop for the FPGA over time. Chances are it will get cheaper next year or so. One the other side the one time costs have to be spend upfront anyway, even if only producing to order. So it makes sense to separete to true BOM costs for the parts used and the one time costs.At least for the start there is also the possibilty that HW issues come up only after more actual use. So they may not want the initial batch to be that large. Ideally they have prototypes for testing, but some issues may still only show up later.Some of the metal and plastics parts (e.g. the backside) could be shared between different products. Similar quite some of the software may be shared or use a common base.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 09:18:10 pm
content: I think using 1k quantity prices is fine, not necessarily because they'll order 1,000pc at once, but, its China. Much easier to get bulk pricing from various parts brokers than it is in the west.Though you sometimes have to be careful with LCSC pricing, that price could be a clearout of some surplus reel they got hold of.Quote from: tszaboo on April 15, 2025, 08:59:40 amThe PCB is dated Jan 2022, so they've been working on this for at least 2-3 years.The rear mold is shared withUPO2000/3000oscilloscope, so no design needed there.The front mold is unique but they will probably try to re-use that on a newer scope if they are able to (since its designed like a 4CH scope at the front).https://instruments.uni-trend.com/products/waveform-generators/UTG9000T

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2025, 06:01:13 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 15, 2025, 09:18:10 pmNice spotting ,thanks.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2025, 06:01:49 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on April 15, 2025, 06:54:14 pmMy 5k guess was total lifetime units.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2025, 06:05:42 am
content: Quote from: asmi on April 15, 2025, 03:03:27 pmCorrect, that's 5k is my guess at lifetime units for long term amortisation reasons. You then handle batch runs however you need to.Brymen for example manufacture to dealers orders, they keep zero manufacturing stock.If I order 500 meters then they slot it into the next run in two months time.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2025, 01:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 16, 2025, 06:05:42 amMy point was that because of multiple batches, they will have to pay setup costs multiple times, which increases the amortized cost of just about each assembly and manufacturing job. Which is why I think $1k is a more reasonable cost estimate than $800 featured in the video.Quote from: EEVblog on April 16, 2025, 06:05:42 amOf course they don't have to hold any stock, because you (and other resellers/white label customers) are doing that for them - and assume all associated risks and pick up the tab for all associated costs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2025, 03:25:40 am
content: Quote from: asmi on April 17, 2025, 01:36:10 pmI do too, but that's what popped out as a minimum, which is what the costing was always about, a realistic minimum. There is always more overhead.QuoteBut as you mentioned above, that increases their setup costs for each run.If they know a particular meter is going to sell say 25k units over the next 6 months, and your production is set up ready to run, why not make those 25k units?It's a rhetorical question BTW, I know the answer, but that answer is not always the right one.Just like I don't save cost by sea freighting my meters.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2025, 10:32:51 pm
content: sometimes when i hear about injection molds I think please just put it in a junction boxI feel like there is alot of slop hiding behind these mysterious injection molding costs. It is partially true but you can hide the biggest dumpster fire behind injection molds.As a EE sometimes you hear something along the lines of "get out of here peon, we are dealing with injection molds !!!"

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2025, 07:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 19, 2025, 10:32:51 pmHave you seen a mold IRL?Its several hundred KGs of tool steel, custom made just for, you, with moving parts, heating and cooling channels cut into it, precision made down to the fraction of the mm. Then surface treated selectively, measured, assembled, taken apart and reassembled several times. It takes hours to take it apart if a change is necessary, and it is. Because you design the part smaller, and increase it in small steps to get a critical dimension or "clicky- ness" right.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2025, 09:55:24 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on April 20, 2025, 07:07:19 pmYep. And designing those molds properly takes serious skills too.

author: danderson
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 10:49:43 pm
content: Watching the video, I was intrigued by the DAC chips from a mystery brand, so went and looked at the datasheet. And the block diagram triggered an odd memory, because I'd coincidentally been browsing Analog Devices's fast DACs recently...And... yup, found it! Looks to be a clone of the AD9739 RF DAC. Exactly the same block diagram (see attached side by side), point-for-point match on the spec bulletpoints (noise, power consumption, ...). The functional description is an exact, word for word copy-paste of AD's datasheet, with just the part name swapped out. Exact same BGA pinout too, with the pinout table listing I/Os in the same order. So many coincidences!As expected you do get a discount for the trouble of filing off the serial numbers, AD quotes $56/1ku on their site, though maybe a volume manufacturer would get them for less...

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 10:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: danderson on May 06, 2025, 10:49:43 pmYou can see some more discussion here, nothing is conclusive though:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/relabeled-ad9910-or-a-drop-in-clone/