I need a Capacitor Tester that will Test below 1uf help!!! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:17:00 pm
content: Hello,I have a Peak Atlas ESR70 and it will not read film capacitor below 1uf!!I purchased a, 200pcs 25 Types 630V 0.001uf~2.2uf CBB Metal Film Capacitors Assortment Kit from Banggood -http://www.banggood.com/200pcs-25-Types-630V-0_001uf2_2uf-CBB-Metal-Film-Capacitors-Assortment-Kit-p-1084662.html?rmmds=mywishlistI checked the ESR 70 manual and it will check from 1uf - 22K uf.I need some advice on which cap tester to buy that will test from .2pf and up?Thank you for any help on this matter.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:40:15 pm
content: Tiny pF capacitors will have no such thing as an ESR worth worrying about. The Peak ESR tester is for finding bad caps - disgusting liquid filled electrolytics in power supplies that shit their venom over a PCB for being underrated or made by a no-name (though CrapXcon are famous) of some cheap concoction in China.If you really want to measure very small capacitance or resistance of brand new out of circuit components then you will have to get a 4 wire meter with Kelvin connections like a DER EE-5000 which is quite a bargain, especially when sourced from Japan with all its accessories. IIRC I paid $100 USD delivered to the UK

author: cvanc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:10:23 pm
content: 2nd on the DER EE-5000; but you will have to check the specs to see how small a capacitor value it can measure. Pretty sure it doesn't go down to values as tiny as you are asking about (I'm not sure anything reasonably priced does).

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:50:34 pm
content: Hi,These capacitors are rated at 630V. What voltage do you plan on using them at?I would be more concerned about high voltage breakdown, rather than ESR.You might want to test them with an insulation tester.630V is the dc rating. This type of capacitor should be limited to 200vac. If you need ac rating you need a capacitor which has multiple capacitors in series (internally).Regards,Jay_Diddy_B

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:16:49 pm
content: If you just want to measure/check the capacitance, most decent multimeters will do.

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:19:51 am
content: Quote from: cvanc on October 18, 2016, 10:10:23 pmThank you for sharing!!!I will look into the specs on this. I will keep the ESR 70 for larger caps, I was looking for something to measure smaller caps that are sometimes hard to identify with the numbers they have on them.Like this;1. 237K2. CBB22 (I have three very different sized caps with the same numbers on them?)3. 223K4. 102J5. 103J6. 332K7. 222J8. CBB219. 156J10. 682J11. CL2112. 33NJ13. CBB2814. CL21X15. 224K16. 334J17. Etc...Thank you for your great advice!

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:26:06 am
content: Quote from: The Soulman on October 18, 2016, 11:16:49 pmYes, you are correct. My main objective was to able to identify quickly what the value of these smaller caps are and if they are within tolerance.Concerning voltage break down, then I will test them on some vintage cap testers I will be restoring for our new work bench for my son and I.I need to properly identify what I have been buying to restore the vintage test equipment. WE are new at this, so this is part of the learning curve to acquiring the proper equipment to accomplish a task.Thank you for share!!!

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:27:31 am
content: Quote from: The Soulman on October 18, 2016, 11:16:49 pmGood advice.Thank you for sharing!!!

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:27:53 am
content: being able to measure them is one thing.Knowing what the markings mean, it's anotherhttp://tubeamplifierparts.com/handy-amp-info/capacitor-code-chart.htmlhttp://www.csgnetwork.com/capcodeinfo.html

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 02:11:11 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on October 19, 2016, 01:27:53 amWOW, fantastic!!!Just what we needed to go along with the new meter.Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us!!!

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 02:19:45 am
content: Quote from: cvanc on October 18, 2016, 10:10:23 pmLooks like this will work for us!!! Check this out and see what you think.http://akizukidenshi.com/download/ds/deree/DE-5000_manu_en2p.pdf

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 07:23:22 am
content: Edit, I had not seen the link to the seller, these are not what I was thinking. Why you want fF resolution for those caps ? I think they are rather useless at anything above 1nF and audiooriginal post just for if you are interested:The DE-5000 can do what you want, but measuring sub-10 pF is not very usefull unless you are working at very high frequency RF stuff. And there you want to know the appearant capacitance at the work-frequency.Under 10pF paracitics in the measurement setup often become a problem. Resolution is not difficult, microprocessors make it easy to give you a resolution of 1 aF if you want, some Chinese brands are very creative in that area, but to make it usable is an other thing. 2 banana busses at the standard width from each other often have 2 - 4pF capacitance, (and that is without the banana plugs)I have a GR-1520 bridge, they are still made and they can measure with aF resolution, but can you ?(operating it for small capacitance measurements is not easy)There are several ways to measure capacitance, the trick most ESR meters do is easy to copy. They measure the impedance of a cap at 100kHz. At that frequency the reactance of electrolytics is very small compared to the ESR. Meters like the DE-5000 measure the real ESR (as given by datasheets from caps, and that is always at 100/120 or 1000Hz. I never seen one that stated ESR at 100kHz, but they most times do give the impedance at 100kHz.http://www.pa4tim.nl/?p=2929Here I use that idea to measure fF, I measure the impedance at 1kHz, higher frequencys make it more easy but in that case parasitics can become a problem. At 1kHz, ESR for sub 10pF caps, is very small compared to the reactance. (but far from small in ohms) That blog page shows several experiments to measure small capacitance values.There are more important things to worry about with caps from sources like yours.That is DC leakage, max working voltage, volt coefficient (capacitance from several types of ceramic caps is extreme variable depending the voltage over it), tolerance, temperature coefficient, and some more things (but those only play a roll in more extreme situations)There are several types of ceramics, if there is no information about the type of a ceramic cap you have , they are more or less useless. For decoupling low power rails(15V or so) with >1nF you can get a way with almost any cap, but lower values are often used in circuits where those things do play a roll. Replacing a 1% 47pF C0G that is used in a resonant tank circuit or filter in a radio, with a Z5U with unknown specs will not make you happy, unless you want a radio you can tune by regulating the room temperature or supply voltage

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:38:07 am
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on October 19, 2016, 07:23:22 amYou are very knowledgeable in this area. Thank you for sharing. Your proof their are extremely intelligent people in this forum.Some back ground for what we are trying to accomplish at this time. I am trying to set up a test bench for my son and I. We have purchased vintage test equipment and have been purchasing parts to restore them.Most have a common precision components;1. Electrolytic caps, 8uf, 4uf, 2uf from 250 vdc - 600 vdc2. Film caps, .01 and up 630 vdc 1% tolerance3. Mica caps, 200pf 600 vdc 1% tolerance4. Very few ceramic caps are requiredWe have acquired a couple of vintage 1950s vacuum tube organs that were going to be trashed. WE then disassembled them, sold parts to buy the test equipment and will use the components to help restore vintage tube radios and amplifiers. Some will be converted into guitar amplifiers.We are just starting out with this new hobby. With this additional information could you please recommend a capacitor tester that would identify & test caps with pf values for us?We do have a ESR70 for larger values.Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us and the great link!!!

author: Savetheday
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:27:01 am
content: HiI use old Peaktech 3710 Capacitance but it works well with all Pico Nana Micro Farad.Good Luck.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:40:25 am
content: For sub-picofarad capacitors, seehttp://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4435414/Sub-picofarad-measurement-with-CMOS-invertersWith 630V capacitors,don'tput them across the mains - unless they have the appropriate X/Y ratings. Yes, vintage ones do explode - I replaced 2 exploded ones last week (inside Tek scopes), and replaced 8 others before they exploded. The consequence of the explosion also detonated a resistor, spreading carbon across the PCB and exposing the glass fibre inside the PCB.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 11:42:38 am
content: "rom .2pf and up?"If you worry about ESR of such small capacitors, you are far more capable than anyone here .If you are talking about ESR of a sub if capacitor, try the ESR meter I built on my blog post. In stock form, it goes down to that range.With that said, lots of other parameters come into play here.

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 19, 2016, 11:42:38 amESR was not my first goal. I just needed to identify the values of the film capacitors with no or unfamiliar markings.We purchased the ESR 70 for the electrolytic caps.WE also purchased a Atlas DCA Pro - Model DCA75, to identify germanium pnp transistors so we could build vintage guitar effects pedals.WE are look for a cap tester under $200 that will perform just as well as these do for what they were designed for.Thank you for sharing.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 03:09:27 pm
content: Quote from: The Soulman on October 18, 2016, 11:16:49 pmnormal DMM usually only go down to nF range, you have to peek in decimal places for pF range and hope those decimal places are correct. below is another cheap option that will measure 0.01pF up to 100mF (HC mode). read very quickly and reliably far more than my Uni-T UT71A DMM.http://www.ebay.com.my/itm/LC200A-Inductance-Inductor-Capacitance-Capacitor-L-C-Multimeter-Meter-Tester-/121245772965?hash=item1c3acfaca5:g:YHgAAOSwqfNXowBxhttp://mpl.jp/lc/LC200A%20%20EN%20V5.0.pdf

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 19, 2016, 03:09:27 pmThat is much less expensive. I am just not knowledgeable enough to compare this and the DER EE-5000.If you have time or someone else with the proper knowledge could please compare the two and provide your opinions on which one after reading what are needs are, would be the best choice. I sent the seller an email requesting a link to the owners manual so I can look at it! If they send it, I will post it here.Thank you for the great advice!!!

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 04:39:31 pm
content: I just found this:LC200A China L/C Meter Review and Teardown -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q-epdC1nf4,https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiuveyHpufPAhVGJh4KHd3UBKMQFgg0MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmpl.jp%2Flc%2FLC200A%2520%2520EN%2520V5.0.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE49dbAah1Bc6Q6nTB-DROAblq--A&sig2=rDdFAHYA7T7GR_4fke6l6QLC200A has four measuring range position:1. C range ........Capacitance (0.01pF-10uF)2. L range ........Inductance (0.001uH-100mH)3. Hi.L range ......Big inductance (0.001mH-100H)4. Hi.C range ......Big capacitance (1uF-100mF)Let me know what you think for the comparison of the two meters.Thank you.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:02:24 pm
content: For what you want almost every LCR meter or vintage LCR bridge will do. But operating a bridge is a bit of an art. I have a IET DE-5000 that I use every day (I repair test and calibration gear), besides that I have a small collection bridges from General Radio (1620, 1650, 1608, 1602, 1603 and stuff you need for some, like generators and detectors) A HP4260 and a very nice and easy usable Wayne Kerr CT-492. The 1620, 1608 and 1650 have no problem measuring with 1pF resolution.My hobby is restauration of vintage test gear (and radio stuff)Sub-pF resolution is in 99% of the cases not needed and if you need it, you need a sound knowledge of electronics and metrology. This week I was compensating a 200x differential attenuator that I use with a Tek P6046 diff probe. I wanted to measure the parasitic capacitance of resistors at 10 and 100kHz to select the best option. I needed to match small caps in values under 10pF. But things like this I do maybe once a year. I build a RF sweep generator. I used very small caps for that. But measuring with an LCR meter is useless because the filters were for 25 upto 2 GHz. I calculate the values, build a fixture in the size of the filter "enclosure" and sma connectors on both sides. I use the LCR meter if IO can not read the text on the caps and in the case I make my own caps and then I use a VNA to build the filter.I made a small tutorial about buying an LCR meter.http://www.pa4tim.nl/?p=4398All about ESR:http://www.pa4tim.nl/?p=3775For repairing vintage radios you need an oscilloscope with probes that can handle high voltage. Beter a vintage scope as a cheap Chinese you blow up if voltage is a bit higher as expected.A 1:1 isolation transformer and a lightbulb you can use in series as protectionA decent multimeter (because in tube stuff there are high voltages and guitar-amps can source a lot of current. (I play electric guitar too)A LCR meter that measures at 100 and 1000 Hz, nice to have 10k and 100k too. More important is that it can measures D and Q too.A function generator (and for RF stuff a RF generator )

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:16:42 pm
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on October 19, 2016, 05:02:24 pmGood advice, it looks like $132 shipped to my house in Maryland USA.Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us!!!

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 07:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: The Soulman on October 18, 2016, 11:16:49 pmbelow 100pF most standard multimeters will have huge errors on the value.+3 on the deree de5000

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 08:41:21 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on October 19, 2016, 07:04:51 pmGreat links.Thank you for sharing!!!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 08:46:35 pm
content: Sub Pf capacitance is hard to measure. Two alternatives: use an LC oscillator and measures its frequency, or to drive it by an oscillator of known frequency. A crystal oscillator will do fine HerE.

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 09:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 19, 2016, 08:46:35 pmThank you for sharing!!!

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 02:43:00 am
content: Quote from: finom1 on October 19, 2016, 10:38:07 amI thought you bought a magic eye cap tester ? If so, why does it not do the job for you?

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 12:35:49 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on October 20, 2016, 02:43:00 amYes your correct. What we are trying to do right now is to restore the vintage test equipment.Take care.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 06:35:43 am
content: Hello, I read the thread and it amused me.You are almost out buying a multimeter 5 1/2 digits to restore an analog meter dating from the sixties !You want to restore vintage equipments but you are missing something important: the vintage spirit.You can not apply the current technical standards and requirements for devices dating from the 60s.I saw some topics on vintage equipment restorations and found them simply absurd.I did not intervene because everyone does what he wants and has the right to "waste time" as he wants.But desoldering and measure each and every capacitor and resistor of a vintage equipment is completely absurd, even if it is a measuring device.Tolerance required by tube circuits was very wide, tubes themselves had very variable characteristics and the circuit would continue to operate even if it was partially worn.I'd go with a different philosophy:- Replace the cheap components that have a great degradation over time, ie low voltage electrolytic capacitors and some wax paper capacitors- Test and substitute the worn tubes- Clean the contacts- Applying voltage gradually with a variac- Measure the ripple of power supply and change the high voltage electrolytic capacitors only when necessary.- Do a functional test of the device. We must accept at least 10% tolerance from the specifications of the new device.- If it is out of tolerance, look what is the component that causes it.- Trust the marking of new capacitors, you do not need to measure them.As an example, you did not need an ESR meter, nobody ever used it at the time of the tubes ....EDIT: A tip from my experience in tube tv set repair: one of the big concern was the danger of explosion of high voltage electrolytic capacitors.It can hurt you.To prevent this risk, we used to power on the tv set only for a short time (10 s more or less).If the capacitor is getting warm, it will explode if you power on the TV set for a longer time.Substitute this capacitor.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 08:12:19 am
content: Measuring small caps in the pF range is difficulty because of the parasitic caps you get from the leads and so one. Otherwise this is not difficult. It starts to get difficult if you need much better than fF resolution.Usually there is not much need to check such film caps - unless abused they are more reliable than most meters.

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 04:34:13 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 21, 2016, 06:35:43 amFor some reason Oldway, I'm starting to get that headache again!!!I understand what you are saying. I purchased some very inexpensive 630 vdc film caps. I did not have a meter to measure their values. My ESR70 would not go down that low.We also have around 10 loaded organ chassis with components on them. I purchased a Hakko FR300-05 FR300-05/P FR300 Handheld Desoldering Gun to remove the parts.Then I need to identify the components quickly.I may be going about this the wrong way.Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us!!!

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 05:03:30 pm
content: Vintage spirit, it is just do the things simples and avoid headaches....For sure, yours 630 vdc film caps have markings and you don't need to measure them.Even the lowest brand multimeter has a capacitor range.Daily, I use an old bulletproof fluke 73 to repair all kinds of electronics and appliances but I often have to check X2 capacitors and this multimeter has no capacitor range.I bought a crap DT-9205M for 15 bucks for this purpose and it works well.In audio vintage repairs, you don't need precision.About your Hakko FR300-05 FR300-05/P FR300 Handheld Desoldering Gun, it is very good to desolder components on print board but I think it is useless for old chassis tube equipment.In this time, the correct way of mounting components was to tight them mecanically and I don't see how you could desolder them with a desoldering gun.EDIT: if you want to dessolder and reuse the components of the 10 loaded organs chassis, let them in place, don't desolder them...When you need a component, you look for it in the chassis and desolder it.Don't do as I did...I desoldered a lot of components, I have several boxes of old components but I'am loosing very much time to find the component I need in all these boxes.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 05:52:14 pm
content: Solder wick might be more useful for you than a de-soldering station. Use it then needle nose to bend the wires so you can remove them

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 21, 2016, 05:03:30 pmGood solid advice!!!Thank you for taking time out of your very busy life to share your wisdom with us!!!

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:31:26 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on October 21, 2016, 05:52:14 pmGreat advice, Thank you for share with us!!!

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 10:25:52 pm
content: Also don't forget this, actually you would use this first and then clean up with wick:https://www.amazon.com/Edsyn-Desoldering-Pump-PT109-Soldapullt/dp/B000PDQJYIThis is my go to iron:https://www.amazon.com/Solid-State-Soldering-Gun-Accessories/dp/B004ME3A0W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477088294&sr=8-1&keywords=weller+gt++soldering+ironIt is strong enough for vintage wiring and heats up very fast (couple seconds) and is light weight. Much better than the bigger and cheaper Wellers and much better for your type of work than a pencil. With this and the sucker and wick you could go to town on your stuff and pull out those old caps in no time. I hope someday you will post a picture of using your magic eye on them.Edit: change pump link to a better model

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 10:45:52 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on October 21, 2016, 10:25:52 pmThank you for sharing what you use daily!!!

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2016, 09:59:30 am
content: As desoldering tool, I prefer the EDSYN PT 109, I am using this model since the time I was making tubes amplifiers.https://www.amazon.com/Edsyn-Desoldering-Pump-PT109-Soldapullt/dp/B000PDQJYI

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2016, 05:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on October 22, 2016, 09:59:30 amGood to know because this is what I have. Did not know it cost so much. Changed my link to the other model to this one because I know this one still works after 40 years.

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2016, 06:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on October 22, 2016, 05:42:24 pm"Worked for 40 Years" This old dog will not last that long. My son will have to keep counting for me.Thank you for sharing!!!

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2016, 07:50:19 pm
content: More than 40 yearsbut I had to change the tip several times !I bought 2 x PT 109 in 1975, I still have one of them partially working (one of the two springs is broken.)I bought recently a new one by Farnell.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2016, 09:45:23 pm
content: OP be sure to check this out to give your stuff the old look in case you have some new stuff laying around:https://youtu.be/n9hZRLbI6BUand check him out for other ideas, I just found him today

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2016, 09:59:59 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on October 22, 2016, 09:45:23 pmThere are a couple people that have been very king to me on youtube.1. Uncle Doug (& Rusty)2. Mr Carlson's Lab3. Old64goat4. Here is another person who has not answered some questions, but can turn anything into a guitar amp The GuitologistYou have a great eye for what I am doing with this vintage stockpile of chassis and components. Please take time and watch Uncle Doug & Mr Carlson's lab about components, schematics & amplifier sections.Thank you for sharing!!!

author: finom1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 05:32:48 pm
content: I found this for anyone who is slow at learning like me to identify capacitor markings!!!1.http://www.elecraft.com/Apps/caps.htm2.http://beamdream.solarbotics.net/Tutorials/CapGuide.htm3.http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/theory/capacitor-code-table/4.http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86718.0These sites helped me allot. If anyone has other great sites please share them here!!!