Just purchased a brand new Rigol scope but it’s over 2 years old !!! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: mmaseda
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:38:55 pm
content: Just purchased a brand new Rigol DS2072A from Tequipment.net. It was shipped directly to me from their distributor Ingram Micro. The problem is in looking at the paperwork this scope was made in January of 2016. Is it unusual to be receiving a new scope that is already over 2 years old ??Manuel

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:49:23 pm
content: why not? test gear is not smartphones

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:50:17 pm
content: Calibration certificate is valid only for 1 year

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: mmaseda on April 18, 2018, 06:38:55 pmNo, unless nobody wants it.

author: eyiz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 08:10:56 pm
content: Quote from: mmaseda on April 18, 2018, 06:38:55 pmSometimes these older scopes are treasures for some folks. Especially the ones that enable you to activate all the features, before Rigol introduced all their protection schemes. I don't know about that particular model and year, but if I were you, I'd browse these forums for clues before evaluating the purchase as good or bad. It's a personal thing, how you value a piece of equipment. The latest model is not always the one with the highest value. There were times when people deliberately went out of their way to find dealers with older brand new test equipment, because of various advantages. I think Tequipment is wise, they tend to know what people want, and try to supply them. They also accept returns. So, if you're not happy, you can send it back.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 09:24:45 am
content: The DS2072A is one of the scopes covered by riglol (Google it). There you can generate all the codes to enable all features including 300 MHz bandwidth; this is all covered in detail in multiple threads on this forum.For the DS2000A series, I'm not aware that newer versions are significantly different from 2 year old ones.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 10:05:46 am
content: Quote from: 001 on April 18, 2018, 06:49:23 pmi think he meant that the actual scope sold as brand new was manufactured in 2016, and not from (for example) a 2018 production batch. The problem of course is calibration

author: Bob Sava
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 10:26:38 am
content: Wow, one would not think that DS2072A is so unpopular. Probably got stuck between the shelvesI cannot think of a reason why you'd want to return it except already mentioned calibration.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 10:33:19 am
content: Quote from: Bob Sava on April 19, 2018, 10:26:38 amMaybe it was under a pile of Owons or something.Quote from: Bob Sava on April 19, 2018, 10:26:38 amJust press the auto-cal button. Job done.

author: wolfp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 12:25:08 pm
content: It is up to the user to decide about the calibration period. The calibration report issued by a calibration laboratory must not have any recommendation concerning this period if not required by the customer (ISO/IEC 17025:2005 5.10.4.4). I don't see any problems in buying an oscilloscope build 2 years ago if there were no significant changes in the hardware design.btw the calibration I have got with my Rigol was a "factory calibration" and was not done by an accredited calibration laboratory. This "calibration" is nice to have and shows that the oscilloscope fulfilled its specification at the time of the test. Don't worry about a 2 years old "factory calibration certificate".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 12:57:49 pm
content: There's a lot of nonsense in this thread about calibration. People are talking like they're multimeters or something.If there's any pieces of paper in the box then it's a calibration "report", not a calibration "certificate".These things arenotcertified (or even certifiable!), you're supposed to press the 'calibrate' buttoneverytime you want an in-spec reading.My copy of the Rigol manual says:QuoteAt a minimum you probably need to do it once in summer and once in winter to compensate for average temperatures. You might even need to do it morning and afternoon, depending on how the sun hits your workshop.Then again: Relax. They're only 5% accurate even after recent calibration so what the heck?Forget about the 'calibrate' button and just use it for what it's supposed to be used for, ie. looking at the shape of wiggly lines on a screen withapproximateindication of voltage. You want to measure voltages accurately? Use a multimeter.

author: Bob Sava
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 01:13:07 pm
content: Good point. Instead of worrying about age of the instrument (and knowing that there were no substantial revisions during 2 years time) just verify that it's operating within specifications.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 02:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 19, 2018, 12:57:49 pmIndeed there is a lot of nonsense. Calibration is about being able to trust the readings are within specifications. Whether that is +/-10% or +/-10ppm. So all in all it doesn't hurt to check (=calibrate) an instrument to see whether it is in spec or not. Even when sitting idle something can go wrong with it.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 02:37:19 pm
content: If you are paying full price, it does not hurt to ask for a recently manufactured unit. 2 Year shelf life, it is something I consider New Old Stock, not brand new.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 05:12:06 pm
content: Precisely.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 05:27:43 pm
content: My concern would be warranty. Vendors have no way to tell when a scope was actually purchased from a distributor by the end user. So, in the Rigol systems there's a good chance the unit is already 2-years into it's warranty. I'd follow up with the distributor to make sure that all gets worked out. 2 years on the shelf is abnormally long, at Keysight we typically account for <6 months.I don't know much about Rigol's calibration stuff, but if it's a NIST traceable cal DON'T RUN A USER CAL. It'll ruin the traceability. Calibration is still important if the work you're doing requires it, but for super precise & accurate measurements a DMM is a better choice.

author: mmaseda
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 05:33:10 pm
content: I talked to Rigol North America. They were also very surprised. They are looking into the matter.Manuel

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 05:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on April 19, 2018, 05:27:43 pmA common way to establish the date of purchase is a receipt.

author: Stavos122
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 06:10:41 pm
content: Maybe the distributor had a hard time selling them and its old stock. I bough a scope a few years ago that was new but based on DOM it was about 1 year old. Works fine and I got a good deal on it.

author: mmaseda
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 01:22:17 am
content: Rigol North America was very helpful. They are going to send me a new scope when they get their next shipment in which should be in a few weeks.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 09:22:19 am
content: Why would it be a problem that it was manufactured in 2016? I don't think there have been any important revisions, bug-fixes, etc. that would make a "newer version" more desirable than the one you have and the warranty will start from when you purchased it, not from the manufacturing date.Just be sure to keep a copy of your invoice / receipt as proof of purchase date in case you ever require warranty service. (Of course, you should be keeping it on file anyway, regardless of when it was actually manufactured.)

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 09:54:36 am
content: I don't see it being a problem, for these not very popular models id guess its quite common.Buying a Flir E4 thermal camera from Farnell we got a unit that was over 1 year old. This was great news since it meant it still had the old hackable firmware.As said before the only thing i would be concerned is that the warenty is valid. Okay the calibration is old but who out there actually calibrates there oscilloscopes apart from big companies that just calibrate everything rather than decide what actually needs it. One should never trust the amplitude displayed by an oscilloscope down to the 4th digit anyway as they are not meant to do that. Timebases are run by TCXOs in scopes so they are pretty spot on and if you are that serious about your time accuracy you can provide your own GPS locked 10MHz reference in to the back of it.So as long as the warranty is valid i don't mind a 2 year old piece of test gear. The stuff is built to last decades.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 10:00:55 am
content: Quote from: mmaseda on April 28, 2018, 01:22:17 amThat seems above and beyond the call of duty. Not many manufacturers would do that.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 10:29:28 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 28, 2018, 10:00:55 amThat is not surprising to me; I was very well treated by RigolNA when I bought my DS4014 there years ago.My only concern with a two year-old DS2000 is that they probably still have the issues reported by Bud on theproject Yaigol- I vaguely recall someone reporting not having the same issues in an unit purchased after that article came out, but I may be mistaken.I would believe the oscilloscope was forgotten in the back of a shelf if it were a DS1000Z, as the value proposition of the dual-channel DS2000 was severely reduced after its younger brother was released.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 10:50:35 am
content: Besides all other reasons, electrolytic caps often have a two year shelf-lifeBut for the rest, where is the limit, 3 weeks, 6 months 1 year ? As long as it is new and 100% equal to one build today. But only as warranty would not an be issue,But I would not want that , I have a not solved warranty problem like that with a Metcal,Calibration for a scope ? Maybe for a high end A-brand scope, if that is so important do not buy a budget brand.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 11:10:39 am
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on April 28, 2018, 10:50:35 amKeysights official ebay page is a good place for that. Yes you get a used piece of test gear on there that might be quite a few years old, but it tends to look pretty much like new, comes in the real box and gets a fresh calibration done on it before it leaves(including all the paperwork with actual measurements) and comes with a warranty. Don't expect massive bargains in terms of price, but they are a lot cheaper than brand new ones (And we all know Keysight gear costs a pretty penny).

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 12:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on April 28, 2018, 11:10:39 amMy experience with Keysight on eBay s that they will accept an offer that's 90% of their 'Buy it Now' price. Often their refurb scopes come with nothing, no test leads, and sometimes no power cord.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 12:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on April 28, 2018, 12:19:15 pmAnd they charge sales tax even when they are shipping from Malaysia.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2018, 04:24:29 am
content: Quote from: TK on April 28, 2018, 12:38:36 pmOrigin of the product for sale doesn’t matter for sales tax. If Keysight has a physical presence (a sales office, for example) in your state, they have a nexus and the state requires Keysight to collect the sales tax from you and remit it to the state.

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 06:11:35 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 19, 2018, 12:57:49 pmNo to both of those assertions.The method you use to 'certify' a 'scope (calibration verification) is to wait for the minimum warm-up time – people forget this, and it is important as a cold 'scope is almost always going to be significantly out – then record the ambient temperature (and humidity, usually, for a lab) and run the 'self-cal' routine. After it passes that routine you then perform the recommended verification procedure (or the customer requested one, or your in-house procedure if the manufacturer doesn't have one). Usually the temperature can vary by a couple of degrees with no significant impact, so recording the ambient conditions at the end of the procedure is usually going to be sufficient (unless your lab is in a barn or something).This provides reasonable proof that the 'scope meets specifications (or doesn't, or is ambiguous) under the manufacturer's recommended usage conditions – warm-up time and 'self cal', generally. If it is out of spec, or very close to it, then the customer may request adjustment and a post-adjustment verification.As an aside: most engineers I have come across are convinced that scopes do not require any form of certification. They justknowthat a reading is right or wrong using their special engineer-electrical parameter mind-meld technique (or something). They're also pretty dismissive of the value of certifying or verifying anything, generally. Just because your components have ten percent tolerances and you design around that does not mean it isn't a good idea to know whether you have 3.3 V or 3.2 V (or worse) when you check that design – 'knowledge is power' and so forth.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 11:56:30 am
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on April 30, 2018, 06:11:35 amNope.Noneof that provides any sort of legal proof or traceability. You'd have to video every session to be able to use it as 'proof' of anything.A certifiable instrument is one where you can switch it on six months later and it will give the exact same reading as before. Oscilloscopes don't fall into that category until you pay a lot more than Rigol prices.Quote from: boggis the cat on April 30, 2018, 06:11:35 amHopefully it's because they know that they shouldn't eventryto do it.Quote from: boggis the cat on April 30, 2018, 06:11:35 amAnd ... that's when you should disconnect the oscilloscope and use your multimeter instead.

author: Dataforensics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 12:16:27 pm
content: One possible problem might be the RTC backup battery, the one in my 2072 failed after four years. So you may only get two years before it needs a change.If you worry about warranty seals or the time on a scope that is.

author: GerryBags
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 12:29:35 pm
content: The term "certify", doesn't mean to verify calibration, that's a performance check. If you don't end up with a certificate, it wasn't a certified process. Hence a document received after you've sent a device to be "certifiably calibrated" will be a certificate of calibration. If you're worried about the accuracy of the actual devices, shouldn't you be at least AS concerned about the accuracy of the terms you use to describe it.If you try to sell a 'scope for a lot of money and put in the description that it has been "certified" because you did a functional performance check after the prescribed amount of warm-up and it was found to be within spec, you will leave yourself open to a law-suit when the buyer finds out.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 02:25:05 pm
content: Quote from: Dataforensics on April 30, 2018, 12:16:27 pmThat is not normal I hope. The ones I had to replace are most times over 20 years old

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 04:20:29 pm
content: Are you guys really arguing about calibration of a chinese scope? I bet they can calibrate it even remotely. The same way they calibrate all their stuff, just print a fake sticker, and hope that nobody ever checks it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 04:30:40 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 30, 2018, 04:20:29 pmDo you have to do this every time?

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 04:33:26 pm
content: I hereby certify this thread.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2018, 05:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 30, 2018, 04:30:40 pmDo what?

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 07:39:41 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 30, 2018, 04:20:29 pmAny decent lab (an ISO 17025 accredited lab will be 'decent') that has 'scopes in their workload can perform a calibration verification on a Chinese 'scope. Why would you think not?The lab I work for doesn't get many Chinese 'scopes, but then we still get mostly older Tektronix TDS series models to calibrate – New Zealand is pretty backward when it comes to buying new test equipment: if that 'scope from the 1990s still boots up, why 'waste' money getting one that will save your engineers a huge amount of time? (Presumably because engineers are 'lazy', as is everyone whose job you don't understand: free management tips!)

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 07:41:19 am
content: Quote from: BillB on April 30, 2018, 04:33:26 pmNot much data in that certificate. Is that a factory cert?

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 08:10:16 am
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on May 01, 2018, 07:39:41 amI aligned 3 analog 20 MHz old scopes for a customer. Most people would call that calibration but it is not, you can calibrate it before to note how well it is within specs before aligning/adjusting, this is very important for the owner. To bad many owner do not know whyand after adjustments to do the same for the state it is before you ship it back to the owner) Why not, he will have a reason to do this, what that reason is, is not important for you and me, but important enough for him to pay money for it.

author: mmaseda
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2018, 11:21:41 pm
content: Just wanted to report that I received my new scope from RIGOL NA today. The new scope was build and calibrated in April 2018 and is HW version 03 (old scope was 02) and has the latest .04 firmware factory installed. Hats off to RIGOL for resolving my problem.