GM walking away from Australia - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 04:54:59 am
content: This is bigger than just Australia: GM plans toentirely stop manufacturing right-hand drive passenger cars, for all markets. (They might do a few speciality conversions, but those will be effectively aftermarket.)Shows what a tough situation they are in financially.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:01:28 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on February 18, 2020, 04:54:59 amOnly an inept car manufacturer such as GM, with the apparent engineering ability to construct an entire car, would use a lame excuse that the effort of putting the steering wheel on the other side is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:02:42 am
content: Great they are a shocking car.Have you heard the Australian saying - If its made in Australia for Australians by Australians, then it can't be any bloody good.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:07:24 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on February 18, 2020, 05:02:42 amNo, I haven't heard that. Sounds very pessimistic.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:31:03 am
content: Not pessimistic, its true.Not long ago bought brand new car designed and made in Australia.The Australian version had the independent suspension removed.Steering and suspension were replaced with cheaper versions.Three friends who have one have had the dash melt in the sun, so I fitted a dash protection mat.Has a very cheap crappy interior that won't last long.The window rubbers are already rotting.Here's a great one for us electronics people -Then there is the electronic display panel, takes 15 seconds to show any image.Also when changing to reverse the reversing camera takes 10 seconds to show an image.On the radio station display shows the radio as being on two stations one corresponds with the steering wheel controls and the other with the radio controls.My guess is there was a problem integrating it with a local display, so they just left it like that!It was sold brand new with DAB when all the DAB stations had already gone off air, just left it like that, even though they knew the problem.The screen cannot be seen even in moderate sunlight.I am waiting to see what else goes wrong, I won't be disappointed.The Japanese version of this car is now available and it is far far superior.And don't forget it was subsidised by the tax payer.Good riddance to our local manufacturers!

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:32:35 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on February 18, 2020, 05:02:42 amNo, but it sounds about right.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:37:31 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on February 18, 2020, 05:32:35 amUp until about 20 years ago, which is what this is all about btw, a lot of people bought Holden cars. As did many of you blokes, I understand.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:40:35 am
content: They were the last to supply radios, heaters, radial tires, carpet, fuel injection and everything else.I had a Monaro nearly kill me when its double circuit brakes failed.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:44:41 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on February 18, 2020, 05:31:03 amMay I ask which car you bought?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:45:56 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on February 18, 2020, 04:54:59 amYep, not only at Oz, but also at many countries starting last year actually, while still stick in China.Source ->Timeline: General Motors streamlines its international operations

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 05:47:18 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on February 18, 2020, 05:40:35 amToyota notoriously offered only under powered motors to mid to large range vehicles here compared to our U.S. counterparts.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 06:08:18 am
content: An article in the local paper says they were one in every two cars sold in the 50s, then one in every five in 2002 and fell to four in every hundred in recent times.I think that's more the reason they shut up shop - people stopped buying them.For reasons like I have already covered and found myself.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 07:25:55 am
content: Owned 5 Fords before I went to a Holden and on our 2nd one that's now 18 years old and been a great car.Now both Ford and Holden can kiss my arse, stuff them both !2 fingers to GM and they ain't for victory !

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 08:32:48 am
content: When discussing Holden's the survey of one or few always comes up as a defence.That's the thing with poor quality control, you must make some good ones, by mistake.A study of statistics is relevant.Its like people who used to say "I have a grandmother who is 87 and smoked all her life, nothing wrong with smoking"In this case she is an exception to the rule, not the rule.Try a larger survey for instance RACV/Q, NRMA, why did people stop buying them?

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 08:41:46 am
content: People didn't stop buying Commodores and Falcons because of reliability. After both manufacturers completely changed these models to ones made overseas, sales stayed abysmal.People stopped buying them because the bulk of the market segment that used to buy large family sedans moved to SUVs.I personally find SUVs ridiculous and a reflection of self-obsessed, irrational pessimism, but it's what people want now. Not the iconic Australian sedans we grew up with.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 08:42:23 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on February 18, 2020, 05:31:03 amWhich model of car are you talking about?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 08:52:50 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on February 18, 2020, 08:41:46 amDepends on your time of life.With a young family the Commodore station wagon was most convenient in that it could carry all and the kitchen sink and yet still get along at a good rate and offer a nice ride yet wouldn't handle like a sedan that's not so practical for the larger family. Had a VK wagon for years when the kids were little and when they were teenagers got a VX-II sedan and it's been a good car.For a while we had both the wagon and the sedan but replaced the wagon with a SUV that is not only very practical for my many needs it's also very cheap to trip in and yet can get down and dirty off road.When its time is up I'll certainly be getting another.ymmv

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:12:31 am
content: Sorry, I should have specifically called out station wagons, which in many ways were the optimal form factor of those "iconic Australian sedans" for families. Yet they were never particularly popular ... seemed to make up 10-15% of them at any time despite being only marginally more expensive ... whereas now almost all SUVs sold in Australia (aside from the big utes) are in wagon/hatch form. Kind of makes you wonder what was driving people's decisions.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:18:31 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on February 18, 2020, 09:12:31 amWhy, because they weren't considered cool !If they'd been raced around Bathurst everyone would want one !Perception has nothing to do with the practical reality of having more than a rollerskate that gets you from A to B.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:24:31 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 18, 2020, 09:18:31 amMy one might not have been cool but it was like Grandma's feather bed. (Didn't get a lot of sleep, but I had a lot of fun)I don't think I would have liked to drive the thing around Bathurst. It went there, tho.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:28:02 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2020, 09:24:31 amStick a big fin on them like a Brute and what's the problem ?Know too many that have been killed in high power Aussie utes.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:32:51 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 18, 2020, 09:28:02 amToo light in the arse end.I just found out that the VK was assembled in NZ. Never knew that.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Commodore_(VK)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:37:32 am
content: Is it honestly that big of a shock? Holden/GM pulled out of manufacturing in Australia quite some time ago. To pull the brand entirely isn't a surprise.Holden have been making mediocre cars for decades. There is nothing special about them. Even their over-priced sports utilities or 8-cylinder sedans are just loud, obnoxious cars for bogans (with equally loud and rattly interiors) which aren't really all that fast compared to equally priced European cars.Walk into any Toyota, Kia, Mazda or Hyundai dealer and you'll get far better bang-for-buck plus a much longer warranty and better dealer support.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:41:11 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2020, 09:32:51 amExactly. Some would have 100kg of bagged sand in the back to keep them on our windy roads and to make for a fast getaway at the lights.QuoteYep for many years until quite recently. Commies were very popular here and you still see lots around and lately late model V8's.....for those that can afford to feed them.Old jokeWhere can you get a Commodore ?Off a Commer van !

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:49:29 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2020, 09:24:31 amActually Bathurst results of late may have driven GM out of Oz with Mustang's taking away the prize money and whatsmore, driven by a Kiwi !The straw that broke the camel's back ?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:50:28 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 18, 2020, 09:37:32 amNo, many of us saw it coming. It was no secret.I think you have to realise that with the Kingwood and the earlier commys had the ability to always get you home. It's has been forgotten.The newfangled Japanese cars in the '80s, as reliable as they were sure, they were awfully more complicated. With the Holden, you get it home and you could fix it.Then that commy that came out with front wheel drive, it was a dogs breakfast. A lot of people, including myself would buy a new one every other model. I still have the last one with the rear diff. Been all round the county and got the scars to prove it.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:51:25 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 18, 2020, 09:41:11 amCould be worse, get taken out by a stray plastic bag.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 09:55:56 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2020, 09:51:25 amNah, sacks not some piss sissy plastic bag and they were mostly wellsides with hard lids so pretty well contained.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:06:32 am
content: Speaking of utes, our youngest came home with an XR6 and if it wasn't for the fact he's the most sensible of our lot and not like his elder bro I would've started making a coffin for him to point out he need get rid of it before it killed him.The bloody thing went real well as I got to drive it a bit when he went to Texas for 6 months twice for harvest seasons.It had some 175 KW vs 150 in our VX-11 and knew how to drink gas......or was it just lead foot Dad ?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:12:51 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 18, 2020, 10:06:32 amIn a previous life I had a Falcon two door hardtop. Saw it on the side of the road. Bought it on a whim. Never got a ticket. Had the odd cop pull me up just for a look and a chat. Had some big rubber on the back and still could get loose in the dry. Had to take to 4 barrel off it. Insane amount of juice. Rego was costing too much. Wish I had kept the 9".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:18:14 am
content: Yeah quite understand as we were all young once !The wife had a hankering for aredHolden Camaro until she found out (after gentle hints) just how much it would cost to run then luckily dropped the idea without so much as a whisper.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:22:17 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on February 18, 2020, 05:40:35 amThe Holden double circuit brakes were identical to everybody else's, so take it up with the brake manufacturers!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:26:43 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2020, 05:07:24 amUsually said whilst sipping French champagne."Australian made?------My dear, how could you?"

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:28:26 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 18, 2020, 10:26:43 amAh. Gotcha.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:37:28 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on February 18, 2020, 05:31:03 amIf you were sold a DAB radio, you got done!Australia uses the later, incompatible DAB+ system, & AFAIK there were never any plain DAB transmissions.Quote

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2020, 10:42:42 am
content: They sold Opel (Vauxhall) to PSA last year.It is a smart move for them IMO, they need to focus on the EV transition and focus on the business parts that make money and territories where they win.You see it going on everywhere now, mergers even with small carshops here in the Netherlands are merged into larger dealerships.When EV transition is growing we will not see that many "different" cars, each manufacturer will have three perhaps four platforms and that is it.On the four platforms there will be the choice but as I read an article today the hardware is no longer going to be the differentiator it is going to be the software and that is where these manufacturers have 0 skills and 0 people. So they need to transit from HW manufacturer to also SW company because it will take too many people to outsource that and be dependent on your income of another company.Just my two cents.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 03:13:41 am
content: "For $35 billion over two decades, Australia rented jobs from international car companies in exchange for subsidies which they were expert at milking from governments around the world. ... As soon as the subsidies dried up, so did the cars."

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 03:28:51 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on February 18, 2020, 04:54:59 amThe only right hand drive countries where GM ever had any traction were the UK, Australia, and a scattering of sales in the Middle East. They never had any traction in Japan, India, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore and so on. They sold off their entire European operations, so they are out of the UK market. Recently they've been making right hand drive cars just for Australia. Making cars for just one market that isn't so very big is tough. Once upon a time making right and left hand driver versions of a car didn't add much to the engineering, Now you need to tool up an entire front interior. If you don't have the sales volume to effectively spread the NRE for that, you might as well not sell at all.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 03:37:27 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 19, 2020, 03:28:51 amWe made a left hand drive car for America here, in oz. Doug DeMuro reviewed it.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 04:01:08 am
content: The Commodore was exported to the UK too (no conversion required but a limited market due to fuel costs and road salting), and some Middle Eastern states. Not sure if the quantities were ever large enough to justify it.However, development was simplified because Holden was using a common platform, which GM had designed from the ground up to be international. It's that cost which GM presumably expects to save on new designs. The sad part is, it's probably not a large proportion of the platform's cost, and increases the barrier to entry to growing markets like India.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 04:06:04 am
content: I'm a bit of a weeb myself when it comes to cars. There's a ton of japanese models that I'd like to see in australia, but the best you can do on that front is grey imports. Even when there's a common model between the countries, australia gets a crappier cut down model with lower specs.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 10:28:57 am
content: Quote from: John B on February 19, 2020, 04:06:04 amYes and stuff the way Jap distributors manage the market too !Over here Toyota are well known for bringing in the base/basic models of a new series and dribbling onto the market over the next few years better models when the home Jap market has already had the top models for years !Never did NZ Toyota import new Surf's (also known as Forerunner's) and yet there's thousands of them on NZ roads all imported SH from Japan. Oh no, they couldn't possibly bring a cheaper model to the Prado and undermine it's obscene price so they lost 1000's of sales to private importers for a vehicle the public really wanted.Car and insurance salesmen are the lowest of the low.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 10:39:30 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 19, 2020, 10:28:57 amYou didn't miss much with theforeskinner4runner. That 2.4L deisel was a joke. Did a trip to Fraser Island in one. Boy did we ever have to get out and push every moment we turned away from the shoreline.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 12:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 19, 2020, 10:28:57 amThey offer what sells well in each market. No car maker offers all its options in every market. This can be frustrating if you are one of the outlier customers who wants an option that isn't offered locally, but its no different than buying clothes when you a physical outlier. It sucks, but its understandable.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 09:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 19, 2020, 12:57:32 pmTo be fair that should be:"They offer what they think will sell well in each market"Holden stood firm in their misguided belief that Australians wanted V8 sedans and utes.Being both small markets and geographically distant Australians and New Zealanders have been offered weird mixes of models from manufacturers. Aside from engines and trim levels body shapes are also artificially constrained, such as wagon (estate) bodies at 3% of used cars compared to 7% in the UK. Demand is so high for wagons that they carry a significant price premium.And then the import/registration restrictions preventing people bringing over the models they want.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 09:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on February 19, 2020, 09:25:32 pmPrimary producer tax write-off. Was a scam for years and everyone was cheating so the tax office tightened the scrutiny.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2020, 09:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on February 19, 2020, 09:25:32 pmEngine and transmission options is how they micromanage the market. Bring base models in one year then a bit more powerful motor the next then follow with turbos and transmission options.Multiple sales to customers are the result from ongoing bites of profit from the buyers purse.It's only when you see what's offered in other markets is when you become aware of these low life marketplace practices.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 02:01:00 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on February 19, 2020, 04:01:08 amI doubt that Holdens would have had a harder time with salt than Brit cars-------at least, back in the day.I saw Pommy cars on the road there which were so rusted out, they would have been compulsorily put off the road in Oz.!Holden did well in the Middle East back in the 1970s, & the "Chev Kommando" or something like that in South Africa was the previous year's Holden.Of course, anti-Apartheid sanctions killed the ZA market.They also sent a few Statesman bodies complete with every thing but the engines to Mazda in Japan, who put twin rotor Wankel engines in them.(One of those things car makers do when they are stuck without a model for a particular niche.)Ford also sold Fairmonts & XA GTs in small numbers in the UK, as well as Chrysler with Valiant VIPs to try to fill the niche vacated by the Humber Hawk & Super Snipe.Back in the '70s I also saw quite a number of privately imported Holdens in the UK, maybe brought home by Brits who had worked in Oz or NZ, or more likely the Middle East, & they were not "rust buckets".It was a weird sensation to look out of the train window & see a HD Holden wagon sitting at the lights, all decked out with sun visor, etc.Such were so familiar at home it looked normal, till I remembered where I was.GM imported late '50s & early '60s Opels into the USA, which were quite dire, compared to the equivalent Holden.The tighter the grip of Detroit became, the less chance Australian subsiduaries had of achieving export success.Quote

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 02:35:49 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 19, 2020, 09:25:32 pmRemember, though, that Holden had become a large importer of cars, so that by the end, the large locally built cars & utes were in the minority, & even of them, most were V6s, not V8s.QuoteHistorically, wagons made up a fair percentage of locally made vehicles.By contrast, factory made wagons in the UK were rare, with most made by small coachwork companies, & looked it, being pretty much a compromise, using the car rear doors and so on.The only time an Australian factory did the same thing was with the FB/EK Holden wagons, & they were rightly widely criticised for it.Quote

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 03:20:30 am
content: QuoteQuoteWonder if these guys watched Mel Gibson and a dog kicking tail across the Australian outback in one of the last-remaining and highly coveted V8's, sometime back in 1979?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 03:26:02 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 20, 2020, 02:01:00 amhttps://www.google.com.au/search?q=mazda+roadpacer&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwit787olt_nAhVhJzQIHcxoDRAQ_AUoAXoECAwQAw&biw=1222&bih=954

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 04:32:18 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 20, 2020, 02:35:49 amAutomotive has a fairly long lead time for new product introduction/development, so things can't change quickly. But the writing was on the wall in the 90's that the Australian market was not going to stick with larger cars and voluminous+inefficient engines, that they started importing the majority is the big red flag that they failed to follow the market. I've had some contacts inside the industry and saw/heard some mind numbingly stupid ideas/decisions.But its good to see the media picking up on the history of subsidies/grants that flowed straight though the place to the parent in the US.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 05:34:02 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 18, 2020, 04:38:15 amPlease include a summary of videos you post, especially in a thread start.It prevents everyone from having to watch to find out what's it about and a good summary with a personal view attached tends to foster better discussions.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 06:14:27 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 20, 2020, 05:34:02 amPoint taken. I don't think too many people really want my personal view, though I seek everyone else here's view on the particular video. I accept that perhaps I need to seed a debate more. The problem with summarizing is that there are a certain number who would watch a video, read a summary by someone else (or vice versa?) and then set about polluting the thread with semantics of said summary.But yes, I promise to try to seed debates and walk slowly into murkier waters.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 06:47:46 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 20, 2020, 06:14:27 amNah, it's only of concern for those of us downunder. The next few posts after the OP will bring any reader up to date on the content of the thread.A general interest news topic that might interest the northern hemisphere wouldn't worry us at all and whatsmore most of us downunder couldn't give a damn.You keep doing it just how ya like Ed.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 06:59:49 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 20, 2020, 06:47:46 amOh, I see. I tend to forget that those on the other side of the planet aren't getting the same news fed to them as we do. No wonder the punters were doing their lolly.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 08:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 20, 2020, 06:47:46 amIt's not a matter of locale. It's a matter of courtesy and common sense. Dumping a link or video means people have to expend time and effort to find out about the topic. Just a few lines will greatly help and also tend to foster more fruitful discussions. People get of course caught up in their enthusiasm about an interesting video or forget they're much more familiar with the subject than people encountering their thread. That's why the view from the other side helps instead of lambasting someone.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 11:15:09 pm
content: Youtube is blocked on this computer. I used to get a black box instead of the preview, but something has changed and now I get nothing. I asked once somewhere if there was any way the forum software could at least add a normal text link, but I don't recall any response. It's not a real problem though because I know what's going on, but a short description or comment would help to decide if it's something I might want to watch.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2020, 11:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on February 20, 2020, 11:15:09 pmPerhaps you can quote a message with a video to recover the link that way.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 05:37:26 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 20, 2020, 08:02:35 pmMr. Self Important.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 06:54:31 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 21, 2020, 05:37:26 amAsking some consideration for the community is very selfish, yes.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2020, 08:06:09 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 21, 2020, 06:54:31 amYou do you.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 12:55:43 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 18, 2020, 10:42:42 amIt looks more like GM is either shaping up to be a good buy or just shedding markets where they lose money. And in the end a car is still a metal box on wheels which takes an incredible amount of logistics to build at very thin margins. Software only goes so far and likely the software will be provided by third parties where the manufacturers may receive a kick-back from services sold.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 07:33:36 am
content: One big reason Holden's sales plummeted was poor quality in design. Crap cars compared to Japanese or German quality cars in general. Remember the Camira? Ford was not much better with their EA Falcon door handles and head gaskets failing. Ford and Holden ripped off the owners on replacement parts for years where the root cause was bad design. The consumer had had a gut full. They wanted reliability.Another reason Holden is dead is they lost sight of changes in the market. GM's marketing appealed to a shrinking demographic. The old days of "SUITS HOLDEN, FALCON, VALIANT" and "FOOTBALL, MEAT PIES, KANGAROOS AND HOLDEN CARS" are long gone but GM failed to recognise it. Holden cars are almost non-existent in this suburb where there is a high proportion of Chinese. Twenty nine percent of Australia's population was born overseas - I think Holden missed the opportunity to tap that demographic. One would lose face driving a Holden around here. Ford's are also rare. Besides, no-one wants to lose resale value or be ripped off on replacement parts.Holden's demise is GM's own doing.PS: I have driven the same Honda Civic for the past 12 years. Still going strong and never had a problem. Very happy with its reliability.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 08:03:02 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2020, 07:33:36 amInsulting the customer is the highpoint at the beginning of the demise. Sales are down? Hey, look! here is a commodore. Let's call it a Monaro. Let's fk up a perfectly good Holden ute.. Hey, it's a Sandman.Jesus Christ.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 08:07:51 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2020, 07:33:36 amTo be fair, tho, Holden dealers did keep quite alot of stock( or near-stock, same day) for popular models for many years. Yes expensive but trivial original replacement parts were available. Unlike those pricks at Ford. Your car is ten years old? Fk off!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 12:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2020, 07:33:36 amNot all German or Japanese cars, though!Anybody remember the first model VW Passat?A friend had one, & it spent more time in the workshop than on the road!Of course, much more recently was my son's BMW with "run flat" tyres which didn't!!We had a little Mitsubishi Colt------a lovely little car, except that It would "out of the blue" start running as "rough as guts", then come good till next time.(nobody ever figured that out!)Another party trick was refusing to start from cold.This turned out to be Chrysler deciding it didn't need the ballast resistor & 8v coil used universally, & substituting a 12v coil.(a ballast resistor from a dead Datsun, & a new 8v coil fixed that).Our Mitsubishi didn't burn oil, unlike most others I've seen.The most reliable cars I've had were the older Holdens, a Renault R12, a 1984 Toyota Corona, & a 1999 Camry,( the two Toyotas were Australian built)The Camry is still going strong.After the R12, I thought I'd buy another Renault, so picked up a 1985 R25---- biggest heap of junk ever!QuoteFunny thing, I had both a JB Camira & a EA Falcon,---- kept each of them for 10 years!The JB Camira was basically a good design, but spoilt by poor quality control.It was one of the last pre-EFI designs, & had a weird vacuum operated "Engine Management Module".Mine had a problem where, when you put your foot down to take off from stationary, nothing happened, & because the dealer didn't seem to have a clue, it wasn't fixed in the early days of my ownership.We developed an unorthodox method, where you pushed the throttle to the floor, let it up, then all worked normally till next time you had to take off from a dead stop.I eventually found out two of the vacuum hoses were transposed!While we still had the problem, we moved to a country town for my job.We really needed two cars, so I bought myself an old "roughie"------ a Leyland P76 V8 for work.I had to go back to Perth to get some new tyres for that beast, so drove it down.Sitting at the lights, I forgot for a second which car I was driving, the lights went green, I did the "floor the throttle" part of the special Camira technique.The results were spectacular!----scared 6 months growth out of me!Apart from that, & silly things like bits of interior trim falling off, very heavy steering at low speeds, oh, & the silly aircond compressor mounted right were it picked up all sorts of junk & eventually failed, the JB wasn't a bad car, & served us well for a decade.The JD Camira was a much better car, with power steering, EFI, better CV joints from the USA (the Opel joints were an abomination), but it was "shutting the gate after the horse had got out"---- the market was gone!Our EA Falcon was secondhand, & had a few problems like one fuel injector which was incorrectly fitted, & made the car suddenly "hiccup"in mid stream whilst cruising down the road.The mechanics were quite sure it was "the computer".It also had a few ignition problems, which I eventually pinned down to a faulty connector on the distributor (they thought that was "the computer", too!)It still did OK for 10 years!QuoteI saw a Kia pursuit car today ----Aaarrrrggghhhh!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2020, 07:33:36 amI had a '80 Corona wagon decked out and built for the drive-in. Was hard to kill, that car. But I managed.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 22, 2020, 07:33:36 amThat lousy Camira design was the fault of General Motors, not Holden.Can you imagine a Cadillac version? It was real.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on February 22, 2020, 01:13:36 pmThe first sentence.. "is an entry-level luxury car"Holy cow.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 22, 2020, 08:07:51 amI needed to buy a replacement flasher lens for my 1999 Toyota Camry.Fair enough, it is old, but the things are everywhere (except in the wreckers).Went to the Toyota Spares place, where a bloke seemed to be playing a computer game on the firm's PC.When apprised of our requirement, he reluctantly dragged himself away to look it up on the PC."350 dollars & 5 working days Ex East" was his pronouncement.The cost was a bit of a shock, but the "five working days" was the lasr straw!I said "forget it", & went home to Google, hoping for a used one somewhere.I found a brand new Chinese copy for $79 pick up the next day!So much for "keeping my Toyota all Toyota"!You would think that a company that advertises itself as a parts supplier would have a bit of stock.Things have got so silly that, in a capital city, you are treated like a "provincial".Almost everybody you have to deal with is either in Melbourne or Sydney, in a different time zone.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:24:20 pm
content: You should breed more people! There just isn't enough people (and thus cars) to keep stock of every part. When I visited New Zealand the people where complaining about the same. Because the market is so small it is hard to buy equipment and parts at sane prices with short delivery times.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 22, 2020, 01:21:11 pmYeah, I hear ya. I'm in the sticks, but I would step back if I couldn't get a genuine part same day/next day.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 22, 2020, 01:24:20 pmI can see what you're saying but when you consider the size of the car maker's showroom verses the parts storage, it's easy to see that the idea is to keep a basic store of common parts, but hey, check out this fancy showroom.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 22, 2020, 01:34:01 pmI could be rational and say "why would I buy from someone wasting so much on a lavish showroom?", but at the end of the day is it the modest showroom or the fancy one which shifts more cars?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 22, 2020, 01:40:24 pmWell, years ago your Holden service guy was a bit of a guru. You'd go to the counter with something wrapped in a towel and say "Mate..."And the guy would say "Right. Ok. Here's what you need."In the last 20 years, not so much.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 01:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 22, 2020, 01:44:15 pmI remember going into the service dept of my local Ford dealer long ago, showing someone half an automated choke, and asking for a new one. He went and got me the other half. When I complained he said "trust me, its this half you want" and he was right.Don't expect that kind of useful input from parts dept people these days. Things are much more streamlined and efficient, but all the job knowledge has gone away. Its a natural consequence of automation.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 22, 2020, 01:24:20 pmOur population is a lot larger than that of NZ.Australia has 25 million inhabitants, driving 19.2'million cars compared to about 4.8 million, driving about 4 million cars.Back in the day, when we had less people, you could walk into a car parts place & pretty much walk out with any part made by that company.No, this is a thing which has developed over the years, where it supposedly is cheaper to do everything in the Eastern States.It certainly isn't cheaper for their customers in other State capitals!We haven't got as bad as the UK back in 1971 though, where the Southhampton Ford agent had to get a part from London.It took a week to travel 70miles!!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 22, 2020, 02:02:31 pmJohn Canogan, the youtube host in the vid in my OP of this thread put out a video yesterday where he told the story of meeting a senior boss at Hyundai in Korea. John asked him why they cannot put a factory in Australia. The guy, to his credit, politely explained to John that a factory of any sort needs to pump out 300k cars. To break even. Hm.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:11:10 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 22, 2020, 02:02:31 pmBack then the cost of the materials to make the part was relatively higher compared to handling it. But wages went up and material & fabrication costs went down. Even over here this is very visible. If I go to a car parts shop which has everything in stock I pay 2 to 3 times more compared to ordering the part from Germany (including the shipping costs!)

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 22, 2020, 02:11:10 pmSounds like a lot of overhead for convenience.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:16:10 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 22, 2020, 02:09:49 pmThat 300k figure is not exactly an industry secret. A big change in the last 30 years which makes that figure easier to achieve is the 300k can now be the aggregate of a mixture of models suitable for the configuration of the line (e.g. ones that will fit in the spray booths). I think this is only the figure for an assembly plant, though. The plant would probably be bringing in engines from a larger plant, and many high value modules, like the transmission, are now only made by specialists in really big numbers.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 22, 2020, 02:16:10 pmThe trouble we've got here is a plant needs to make 300k cars as close to the same as it can. But people here do not want the same car as everyone else. They pay thousands for a license place that says 'wanker1'

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on February 22, 2020, 02:09:49 pmBack in 1963/64, Holden made just under 260,000 EH models.From 1971 to late '74. they made 485,000 HQ models.The HJ, Hx & HZ were pretty much facelifts, so,the total for that body style would be quite a bit greater.Many of those "crappy" Holdens are still around.What offers on how many Hyundais will still be around in 56 or 46 years?How about in 20 years?, 10 years?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 22, 2020, 02:49:36 pmThere is nothing on the HQ I can't fix. The newer cars, with all their modules. Yeah nar.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 02:58:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 22, 2020, 02:11:10 pmIf I could have walked out with the part, I would have probably have bought it & gone on with my life.As it happened, they wanted to screw me over for the price,&make me wait a week!The Chinese unit looked identical to the Toyota one, so the nasty suspicion arises that they are all made in the same factory in China, with some going out as generic brands, & others in Toyota boxes as "genuine"replacements.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 03:04:21 pm
content: I've seen some pretty fancy fake genuine parts. Headlight assemblies etc. It's bloody hard to tell. The giveaways just silly little bits of plastic hanging off corners or joints. The incentive is that it's worth doing a good copy because the dealer charges so much for the brand part.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 03:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 22, 2020, 02:58:39 pmThere are a lot of soft tooling systems in China, suitable for taking a moulded part, making a soft tool from it, and making a few hundred to a few thousand copies before the soft tool degrades badly. They can have parts in your hand very quickly. The usual way you can tell the part has been cloned is by looking for the information moulded into the part. The soft tools don't always follow the finely detailed fonts all that well, and the writing looks "soft". This is a very flexible solution. If the car maker's stock of parts for an old model run out you just need one pristine copy of the part, and the supply issue is gone within days.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 04:08:55 pm
content: Good riddance to bad rubbish!The single biggest problem with GMH is the GM part. For instance they banned Holden from exporting cars into the US market, as it would interfere with their own GM factories.I know someone who many years ago bought a new Holden, made in Australia, got the dealer to do all the servicing.Dealer never, ever changed the oil, still had the thin oil that is supposed to be replaced after a few hundred km. Car had done 5000km by the time the owner finally decided to change the oil himself.Fuel tank had a few plastic parts, replacing one broken part would cause something else to break.The entire tank, internal pipes, pump, sender unit etc, all plastic crap.He ended up replacing everything.Heard the engine died 6 months later, something hard to fix.Too much plastic crap in modern cars, plastic clips, plastic hoses, plastic engine parts, plastic fuel system.Odd obsession with using as much plastic as possible, anyone would think they were being paid by the oil companies... Yeah they are.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 04:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on February 22, 2020, 04:08:55 pmYep. Black texta line drawn on sump plug and on oil filter. Take photo with camera. Lift bonnet after service and check again before driving car away. Of course here you don't have to use the dealer to fulfill the warranty obligations.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 09:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on February 22, 2020, 04:08:55 pmIIRC 5k was when my new VX 11 had it's first change.QuoteNever had any issues with my fuel system at all and tank is all plastic.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 12:11:46 am
content: Quote from: station240 on February 22, 2020, 04:08:55 pmThat practice has been extinct for over 50 years!My EH Holden was delivered in December 1963 with the same grade of oil that was used throughout its life.QuoteI will go along with the bit about plastic, but Holden are hardly the worst offender.Hyundai Accents have much of the body work made of plastic & clipped together in a similar manner to that of TV remote controls.Plastic doesn't stay "springy" for very long, so if you "breathe on them", they become unclipped.Not covered by the warranty, either.OK, maybe this construction allows the plastic bits to come apart, dissipating energy in a crash, but the same thing could be achieved by using shatterable plastic pins which wouldn't fail in everyday service.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 03:23:23 am
content: Quote from: station240 on February 22, 2020, 04:08:55 pmAbsolutely. Look at Subaru, sure their mechanics might be reliable (ish) but their interiors are plasticy and horrible, the doors are thin as hell and they just feel tinny. Absolute garbage (and not that cheap either).