First 3D Printer (if I may, uh.. Kind of urgent!) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 04:10:31 pm
content: Hi guys. Today, I considered buying a 3D printer for the first time, since I quite often need to make replacement for broken plastic parts and/or manufacture small cases for electronics projects.Now, I know that a proper purchase would be preceded by a deep investigation of 3d printing technologies, reading the reviews, etc. etc.But the thing is that 3d printers are sold, right now, with massive deals due to the black friday, and these deals will end at midnight!Apologies in advance for abusing your patience, but I'd need to know which kind of 3d printer would be ideal for my use case. I don't need to print toys or stuff that is aesthetically pleasurable. So, my targets are:- Ease of use, little maintenance required- Strong printing material (stuff that doesn't break)- Precision (up to printing holes for LEDs and switches on a plastic box for electronics)- No emission of harmful nanoparticles, if possible.If not a brand/model, advice about a specific kind of 3d printer would be sufficient. Thanks!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 04:38:32 pm
content: Elegoo Mars or Saturn

author: Swainster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 05:43:11 pm
content: For strength and ease of use, I'd go with a filament printer, though your designs need to take into account the weak layer adhesion I.e. treat it like wood. For fine details then resin is the winner, however for dimensional accuracy I'd say FDM is better than resin, or maybe I'm just not as experienced with resin printing. For a beginner I'd definitely start with FDM.That said, I just designed and printed some HP original style feet, and went with resin for the first print.Prusa is generally considered to be the easiest to use filament printer. I started with a cheap and cheerful Creality Ender, and it's worked fine for me, though I do love to tinker.I'd say potentially harmful emissions are unavoidable with 3D printing. Resin stinks and is generally quite hazardous, while FDM generally doesn't smell too bad unless you are printing something like ABS, but even so, hot plastic means nanoparticles are being emitted. Good ventilation is essential.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 07:10:43 pm
content: Mh, I see. So, it'll be FDM.I don't really know where to place it, since my basement is definitely un-ventilated. I'm seeing that some 3d printers come with hepa filters (Flashforge Adventurer 3 and 4), but I don't know how effective they are in containing nanoparticle emissions.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 08:17:21 pm
content: you are overthinking it. nanoparticle will trigger your T-cell anyway makes you stronger. you rely too much on hepa, you'll stay weaki dont understand why people came to conclusion that FDM (0.3mm tolerance) is more accurate than MSLA (some 0.001mm tolerance)? i have both FDM and MSLA, and MSLA is way more dimension accurate than FDM... the only reason you dont want MSLA is if you want to print big. ps: dont print with PLA, you'll regret it in 3-5 years time.

author: Lindley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 09:21:07 pm
content: You do not mention your budget for a printer ?Many of the lower price printers need a degree of mechanical abilty to build and set up and produce good prints, though if you go up to GB£1000+ you can get better quality fully assembled printers like the PrusaMK3S.Plenty of good Ytubes on such printers and setting them up, but they do take time to view , not good if you need to purchase soon.You can make a simple enclosure to house the printer and a simple fan/filter sysytem.Allow yourself pleny of time to learn 3D design as it can be both very simple and very complex.We have an Ender 3 V2 and use it to make housings for tft screens, leds, switches etc.

author: Swainster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 12:34:58 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on November 28, 2022, 08:17:21 pmJust my personal experience - resin warps is the z direction during the print, and in random directions as the print ages. The only way to get something to start off square is to lay it flat on the bed, which makes print failure quite common. Also, don't confuse nozzle width with accuracy. I use a 0.6mm nozzle for speed but I can still place holes to better than 0.1mm at 300mm spacing. However if I want to place 2 holes at 0.4mm spacing, or if I need walls thinner than 1.8mm, then I switch to resin and live with the lack of dimensional stability.To add to that, resin wins hands down for cosmetic prints, but where possible (I.e. if size and layer weakness permit) then I default to FDM for functional prints. For my workload, that means I use FDM 90% of the time. (Out of a Creality Ender 3 Pro, Ender 5 plus and a Halot Sky resin printer).

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 01:08:58 am
content: I think Prusa is still pretty much the gold standard for things around $1k or less. You can get it together with an enclosure (which helps a lot) for $1029https://www.prusa3d.com/product/original-prusa-i3-mk3s-kit-enclosure-bundle/

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 01:22:07 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on November 28, 2022, 04:10:31 pmMy FDM 3D printer - an Ender 3 Pro highly modded now - (which I got 4 years ago) came with a 0.4 mm nozzle. About 2 months ago, after following the advice of some YouTubers, I switched out the 0.4 mm nozzle for a 0.6 mm nozzle and haven't looked back. It prints faster, and for many things like panels and all but very tiny things, you will hardly notice the difference in quality. If yours comes with a 0.4 mm nozzle you might want to try the 0.6 after you get the hang on it.So many things to learn and experiment with in this hobby.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 01:38:17 am
content: Most of the Black Friday deals aren't that great and some aren't really deals at all. (Look at a price tracker; I find that most of them are "the best price in a while, but often only tied for the best price that has happened at several other times during the year as well".)If you just realized that you need a 3D printer, I wouldn't rush to buy one just because of the day of the year it is. Research as you need and buy the right printer for you at a price that will be extremely close to today's price. Most of the cost in 3D printer comes after you buy the printer anyway.I've got 6 printers, ranging from several $200 Ender 3 with $75-ish in mods through a FlashForge Creator Pro clone and up to SecKit Tank.My standard advice for people brand new to 3D printing is: Is spending $300 or $1300 roughly equally comfortable? If yes, buy a Prusa. If not, buy an Ender 3. The Prusa is nicer; it's easier. The Ender 3 is also totally fine to start with.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 02:00:00 am
content: I have parts printed in Formlabs Tough 1500 or Clear that are outside (no direct sunlight) for 2 years now and are like new, including threads etc. Or parts where I printed a 25mm OD 150mm height cylinder and it printed it exactly 25.000mm throughout.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 03:12:10 am
content: Prusa does have a very good rep at the roughly $1000 dollar price point. I am very happy with my Creality Ender 3 S1 Pro, which is currently on black Friday sales as low as $369 and is specified comparably. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is as good as the Prusa, but my experience says that it is more than good enough for the kinds of jobs you are describing. These do come as a kit, but anyone with even rudimentary mechanical skills should be able to assemble one and have it running in less than an hour. With any filament printer it will take a while to learn all the ins and outs related to part geometry, but for most relatively simple prints you can count on first day success.There is much advantage to picking a printer or printer family that has much public support. Prusa and Creality seem to lead the pack in this area.Something that hasn't been emphasized in above posts is that resin printers are messier. With filament messes do occur but they are easier to clean up.I have had excellent luck with PLA prints (some several years old and in outdoor use), but typically use PETG as my go to material now. It has enough higher operating temperature to survive most household uses, is nearly as easy as PLA and doesn't have the toxic fume and bed adhesion problems of ABS (The mentioned Creality printer will handle all of these materials.)

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 12:50:14 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on November 28, 2022, 08:17:21 pmAre you serious??

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 12:51:56 pm
content: Quote from: Lindley on November 28, 2022, 09:21:07 pmMh, say some 500 eur.I was eyeing the Adventurer series from Flashforge..

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 12:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on November 29, 2022, 01:38:17 amIndeed I thought it was not so wise to rush for the purchase. I need to understand things a bit better.And I bet the prices will go down again just after Christmas..

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 02:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on November 29, 2022, 01:22:07 amTempting....

author: Lindley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 04:54:43 pm
content: Yes, worth taking a few weeks to research the best printer for you, probably better deals after Christmas than now.There are a couple of Adventurers around your price point but you might find the 3 has a quiet small print area thats too limiting for things like enclosures and front panels etc.

author: barelectricbear
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 07:56:04 pm
content: I would disagre with PLA fumes being less toxic, to me they stink worse than ABS, and who knows what kind of chemicalls they are mixing in the chineses factories.Can any one recommend if free slicer software is better than comerical slicer software? I think part of the problem with failed prints is using free software which may create errors in the gcode.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 08:04:50 pm
content: I've had excellent results from Cura (free software). Others have had great results from Slic3r (also free software, which I used and was happy with, but prefer Cura [mostly because I've got all my profiles nicely setup in Cura]).At this point, I think Simplify3D (paid software) used to be better but has completely stagnated and is now worse than the free slicers.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 10:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: barelectricbear on November 29, 2022, 07:56:04 pmPLA should have little smell when printing, and only smell "sweet".If it has another smell either your temperatures are far too high, or your filament is crap (if you are buying no-name chinese filament with sparkles in it).Yes you still want ventilation, but PLA is far better than ABS to print with.https://clevercreations.org/3d-printer-fumes-pla-abs-printing-smell/There is basically no reason to use ABS for hobbyist purposes.Cura and prusaslicer are both free and work well.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 10:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 29, 2022, 10:22:00 pmABS is proven durable material, but harder to print right (without heat chamber).

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 11:27:23 pm
content: ABS is also actually post-processable. Good luck sanding PLA, it's awful.As far as polymers go, the bulk of my FDM printing is done in polycarbonate in a heated chamber. Moderately priced, excellent mechanical properties, good dimensional accuracy. Absolutely needs a heated chamber though (same as ABS) or you'll not get good results.As far as FDM materials go, for me:* ABS for castings masters or similar parts that need to be post processed (and SLA isn't suitable)* PC for general purpose usage* PA6-CF (or PA12-CF/GF depending on specific requirements) for mechanically strong parts* PVDF for chemically resistant parts

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 11:33:46 pm
content: Doing your research you might want to look into this website. I have found them relatively unbiased, and they publish a huge amount of information about 3D printing.https://all3dp.com/

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 11:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on November 29, 2022, 10:36:06 pmPETG is more durable.ABS advantage is just if you need higher Tg (105C vs 85C), or I guess post processing as mentioned.https://all3dp.com/2/petg-vs-abs-3d-printing-filaments-compared/PA6-CF does seem good for certain applications (low creep):and PVDF sounds interesting. But again, for hobby purposes here? unlikely that its needed.

author: barelectricbear
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 11:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 29, 2022, 10:22:00 pmI have tried various PLA filaments which give different temerature ranges, 190-215 or 215-240, no sparkles but on the cheaper end. Even the lower temperture ones have a funky smell, it is not just a sweat smell and gives me an alergic reaction. I have burned the filament with higher temerature but this just gives a stronger smell which it is not much different than normal printing as you are still melting the plastic and this burns it a little bit. I prefer the ABS smell and have better results printing with it.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 04:44:34 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on November 29, 2022, 11:27:23 pmRespect, I can't imagine how much time you invested to figure all the above out.Do you think I can do PC with an E3D V6 hotend upgraded to copper plated block and Pt1000/PT100?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 10:16:42 am
content: Odors and reactions to various filaments are something very personal. I have not noticed any odor or reaction to any of the common filament materials, but more than one person I know reacts to one or more of them.Medical concern has been raised about all of them, but I don't think there is enough data to make any definitive comments. It would certainly be good practice to arrange for good ventilation, just as you would for soldering fumes, paint fumes and sanding dust.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 12:07:15 pm
content: Honestly, I've never noticed any odor from PLA whether melted or hard. I get right up to the print head sometimes to check how it's printing - never smelled any odor whatsoever.Edit: Additional data - I use Atomic filament, if it matters.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 07:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on November 30, 2022, 04:44:34 amI have no particular experience with E3D-style hotends and PC. It looks like it could work, though. I run my hotend at around 275C so you don't need super high temps.My heatbreak is watercooled so the temperature gradient is a bit sharper than in consumer printers. I don't think it's a big problem for PC though as it has a moderately high Tg.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:08:26 am
content: Thanks Kane.Now I would like to see a pic of your setup.How many printers you have?

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:19:31 am
content: Just two. A Form 3 and an Intamsys Pro 410 HT.The Form 3 is excellent, but has the usual limitations of SLA and expensive materials.The Intamsys is ok. It's good and works well, but there's some things (esp material handling and waste heat) that are a bit suboptimal. It was the best cost/performance for reliably printing high temp filaments at the time though, and all the mechanical parts are pretty solid. If it was a 10k device it'd be an excellent deal.I had a Raise3D Pro2 Plus before the Intamsys for a couple months as a trial and it was an awful mess.That being said, you can get good results with cheaper machines. It'll just require more time investment.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:52:48 pm
content: Holy shhhh...I knew you had big guns in your hand.... Congrats nice horses.