NeoDen YY1 Pick And Place Machine With Under $3K Price for Hobbiest/Low vol Usag - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 01:55:03 am
content: New Arrival!!!NeoDen YY1 Pick And Place Machine With Cheap Price(Less than $3K),if have interest,feel free contact to me:Tonny@neodentech.com,Skype:Tonny-Neoden,Whatsapp or Wechat:86-13588787940https://youtu.be/Cqn_GG2tIpo

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 08:44:09 am
content: Looks interesting - some nice features for low-volume users:Bulk feeder - would be interesting to see how well this works in practiceDecent 315x350+mm board area ( if only one feeder bank in use)Tool changing, which is an essential feature lacking in many low-end machines, 3 + 1 nozzles is just about enough.The only thing I'd have liked to have seen is a flying camera option for part vision, as this would improve speed considerably for relatively low costAlso the option to take a few Yamaha feeders for high-quantity parts would be niceSome things I'd like to see in more detail:Feeder loading procedureHow do the feeders pull the cover tapeFeeder options for wider/deeper tapesIs the speed shown in the videos the maximum speed ? It does look a little slow - the 3000cph claim looks suspect

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 01:10:51 pm
content: Has anyone seen one of these in the wild yet/how reliable are NeoDen machines in general? Price wise these look very attractive to me for our workflow. Management wants to keep production in Canada as much as possible for marketing and security reasons, so we regularly spend 2500-4000 CAD per small run of boards from a local shop.In theory it would pay for itself in ~2-3 of our builds, but that depends on how many hours we'd have to commit to the machine for setup and and inspection/rework of the boards (plus we'd need some kind of reflow oven). But if setup is relatively easy, I could also use it for prototyping instead of manual placement.The machine would be idle for pretty much 98% of the year, and only be put to use 5-6 times a year max, unless our sales ramp up a lot (although they're already up like 50% this year...)

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 06:44:31 am
content: Hi All,Glad to receive your further comment.Can know more of our machines via below link(can find many videos inside):https://www.youtube.com/c/NeoDenTechnologyBest regards,Tonny-NeoDen

author: jayx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 10:22:32 pm
content: These extra videos dont answer the questions:Feeder loading procedureHow do the feeders pull the cover tapeFeeder options for wider/deeper tapesIs the speed shown in the videos the maximum speed ? It does look a little slow - the 3000cph claim looks suspectAlso videos resolution 480p? Is this supposed to reflect the quality of the machines?

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 02:13:35 am
content: @Jayx,1.For how to load the tape reel,we are preparing the video,will update when all are finished.2.The tape is forward by one needle on the head,meanwhile the peeler collect the covering tape,from the video,can find this procdure.3.The machine default tape reel feeder setting are total 45pcs(8mm=36pcs,12mm=6pcs,16mm=3pcs),support buy more if you want to replace among ones.Above feeders support max 12mm height components.4.Yes,the video is in low speed mode,the max CPH is 3000(vision on),the real speed was determined by many aspects,like the component kinds quantity,the distance between the tape reel and PCB,etc.5.Some videos are took by mobil,so maybe not enough clearly.If have further questions,can feel free contact to us directly.-Best Regards,Tonny-NeoDen

author: doppelgrau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 10:33:01 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 02, 2022, 08:44:09 amNo experience with this machine, but with OpenPnP there are similar feeders.Once you dialed in the vision, they work quite good, but depending on the chip, dialing in the vision system can be a pain.

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 02:31:27 am
content: Hi,Can find many real working videos via below link:https://www.youtube.com/c/NeoDenTechnologyBest Regards,Tonny-NeoDen

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 03:01:57 pm
content: When will the manuals for the YY1 be available (on your website)? I would like to see datafile formats, etc.

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 08:22:49 am
content: @fourfathomCan download one draft User Manual via below link:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SjZLu2GTdcQKzouMbZvWyXhsxw1b2wR_/viewBest regards,Tonny-Neoden

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 11:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: Tonny-NeoDen on August 16, 2022, 08:22:49 amThis needs an authorization code to access the document. I did the "request access" thing but no response so far.

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 05:05:53 am
content: @fourfathomHello,sorry for bringing the inconvenience,pls check the link again,tks.Best regards,Tonny-Neoden

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 11:13:43 pm
content: Question: How does the YY1 handle 12mm component tape? 16mm?Also, are the nozzles a Neoden custom design? They don't look like Juki.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:57:09 pm
content: I've been looking at the demo and review videos -- quite impressive. The number of feeders looks great, assuming I can swap some 12mm feeders instead of the 8mm (on other Neoden machines a 12mm takes the place of two 8mm feeders, and that's OK with me.) Reliable 0201 placement is better than I would expect. I don't need or want a conveyor, one board at a time is fine (if I want volume production I will use a pro assy house.) The small footprint is good for my limited lab space. It looks like the PnP files are available to read and write , so I can use my own format conversion and feeder selection software.And is there a video of your new "peeling gadget" at work? I've seen how the reels get loaded but no details of the cover tape handling.So what comes with the machine? Nozzles? (not Juki?) Feeders?Under $3,000 ? Shipping and availability?

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 12:44:06 am
content: @fourfathomPls send an email to me(tonny@neodentech.com),then will reply all to you with all details.

author: kylehunter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:12:52 pm
content: Quote from: Tonny-NeoDen on August 22, 2022, 12:44:06 amI'dhighlysuggest you just answer the questions here, publicly. If not, others won't know the answers. Worse still, people will assume that the answers make the machine look bad, hence why you wouldn't want to just let everyone know.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: kylehunter on August 22, 2022, 02:12:52 pmI made the same suggestion to Tonny in my email. I did get a quick response back that answered most of my questions, and I hope NeoDen decides to post more here.I will say that the answers were encouraging. It would be nice to see some actual user feedback in the manner of Unexpected Maker, but at least for now the YY1 looks far superior to the Charmhigh unit.

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 02:37:16 am
content: Hi All,1.* And is there a video of your new "peeling gadget" at work? I've seen how the reels get loaded but no details of the cover tape handling.Help take a short video of how the peeling gadget working,check below link:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Iihqzf11pzRRpzof881mUG_cl9hATxrf/view?usp=sharing2.* So what comes with the machine? Nozzles? (not Juki?) Feeders?The machine will equip 45pcs of tape reel kind feeders as standard setting,also will equip extra ones like vibration feeder,bulk feeders(for IC tray and cut tapes,bulk components).The nozzle use CN series(Samsung brand),the machine will equip 8pcs total as standard accessories.For commercial business questions like price/qutation,suggest talk via email individually.best regards,Tonny-neoden

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 03:14:40 pm
content: Having watched several videos of this machine, one thing I can't help but notice is just how many of the component-handling parts appear to be 3D printed. This makes me wonder a few things:Was this just for the prototype, or is the production machine also built like this?Will 3D models (CAD and/or STL/3MF) be made available for customers to print more of these parts themselves, and/or make modified versions to suit their needs?I'm also curious when/if the market will see a batch reflow oven to accompany such a setup. The Neoden IN6 might be in a similar class, but it still looks conveyor-belt oriented and is just a little bit too expensive. It often feels to me like the market could really use a decent-quality convection batch reflow oven in the sub-$4k price range able to run off 120V power. All we have right now are IR ovens like the T962 and DIY toaster projects.

author: HHaase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2022, 04:16:00 pm
content: This looks like a more viable alternative to the TVM802 and other pin-advance style machines if you're in the market. But I don't know if it's enough better for me to swap from my existing TVM802 to this machine. I'd really like to see some more footage and examples running embossed tape in 8/12/16mm.I would have much preferred a lite version of the Neoden4. 2-heads with changer, 24 to 36 slots for Yamaha style feeders, non-conveyor. That would have me spending money.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 09:26:28 pm
content: I just received my YY1 today. I am impressed so far. From uncrating to first placed parts was less than an hour. Programming is on the machine so that's a bit of a bummer but no worse than my TVM802B. It's actually much more intuitive to program and use.I bought the TVM802B because my essemtec csm7000 (I have two) does not handle 0402 parts well at all. I needed another small machine and the Neoden appealed to me and the price isn't really any more but the design and quality is much better.The only downside is that when using tubes that have tall components, the tubes have to be placed flat and therefore won't feed. However the bulk feeding where you can sprinkle lose capacitors (or resistors if you are ok with mounting some upside-down) in the trays and the fiducial camera locates them for picking works surprisingly well. The 3d printed parts are of very good quality and seem to have great layer adhesion.I'm working on a video review, shooting video, taking pics. Hope to be able to share the video in the next week. If anyone has questions or would like to see a pic of anything particular, let me know.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 10:08:55 pm
content: Definitely looking forward to seeing more on this machine in the absence of detailed info from the manufacturer!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 05:08:50 am
content: Quote from: eflyersteve link=topic=332494.msg4439311#date=1664400388I just ordered the YY1 a few days, so this is encouraging! I expect mine to arrive early November, and I will report back as I test it.For my CHMT36 I wrote a little C# program that takes my KiCad placement files and my component/feeder spreadsheet file, and generates the native CHMT PnP file. I am looking forward to doing the same for the YY1.

author: Selectech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 03:29:49 pm
content: I've had my YY1 for a couple of weeks now, quite like it.Board setup is quick & easy. Machine is quiet.Placements are good. I do mostly 0603, 0805, TSSOP, SOIC, TQFP, QFNs. Usually around 300 to 700 placements per board or panel.

author: lutkeveld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 04:26:34 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on September 29, 2022, 05:08:50 amThat's the .H5 file right? How did you manage that, is their standard open?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 05:24:31 pm
content: Quote from: lutkeveld on September 30, 2022, 04:26:34 pmNo, it's a .dpv file, based on the output from the Charmhigh ConvertTool-V2.4.3.exe. I don't have specs for the format, but it's all ascii so I just figured it out -- pretty simple after a few iterations. There's something similar on the Hackaday website, done in Python, but I haven't studied that one. I don't think I know what all the .dpv file parameters do, but I figured out all the ones that mattered to me.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 05:29:05 pm
content: Some issues I'm running into:You can only align with a single fiducial. Note that some boards I have do not have fiducials. This is an older design and not mine.I've also noticed that it doesn't always check for a fiducial, even when powering off and back on and starting a run.Even though it says it can place a max of 18x18mm part, the up looking camera can only see a range of about 6.5mm square.There is no way that I can find to home the machine other than with a power cycle.I've had several instances where the machine crashed into one side (exceeded it's travel limits). I'm unclear why at this point.There doesn't seem to be a way to define part sizes so there isn't a tolerance setting to discard out of tolerance parts.The bulk part mounting can get confused with 0805 capacitors where it doesn't know the correct orientation. This would be solved with the ability to add component tolerances.That's about it for now. Hoping for a firmware update to fix these issues.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 08:20:20 pm
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on September 30, 2022, 05:29:05 pmYou mean literally one point ( so it can;t compensate for rotation? Or one pair ?QuoteMaybe there's a way for it to take multiple images (like my 25 year old Versatronics does....)?

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 08:50:57 pm
content: It asks for one component center and one fiducial which is weird.There isn't a way to tell it the component size so it couldn't know how to take multiple images. At least not any way I can find.Had a couple more crashes today when trying to place that 15mm QFP. I think there are software issues that need to be addressed. I've sent a message to neoden.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 09:53:09 pm
content: Figured out the large component camera issue. There is a setting 'big IC camera'. It's a setting for each reference designator.Steve

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 10:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on September 30, 2022, 09:53:09 pmDoes that mode take multiple images?

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2022, 12:42:34 am
content: Just one image gets the entire 15mm square component. I assume it'll handle up to an 18mm as there is still room in the field of view when taking the pic of the 15mm part (and that's the spec).I also think I may have found the issue with it crashing. Seems that (and I'll have to double check to be sure) that it doesn't like having a fiducial on the top left of the board. For whatever reason on this particular board when I set the fiducial there it comes up with some wild calculations on the board location (close to 700mm in the X axis for a board that is 54mm x 54mm square.I'd really like to see a software update to include two fiducials. It seems to rely on the lower left corner of the board for one alignment point which as you probably know is not very accurate always.Still learning. Still like the machine. Going to look at modeling and printing a new tray for some parts that don't fit in the included trays.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2022, 10:59:12 am
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on October 02, 2022, 12:42:34 amSo if its fits in the normal FOV of the camera, why does it need a special mode/setting?

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2022, 11:45:09 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 02, 2022, 10:59:12 amI have no idea. I'm guessing they use a digital zoom for small parts and need some command to switch to no digital zoom for large parts. My TVM802B makes this change based on the component dimension definition. The YY1 handles this on a reference designator basis (you select the option for the big part camera settings for each reference designator where it is needed).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2022, 07:29:11 am
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on October 02, 2022, 11:45:09 pmSounds like that should really be a per-feeder definition

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2022, 08:26:43 am
content: Hello,I am very much interested in the Software update procedure. As I have seen some bugs popup on different fora.Can someone owning the YY1 tell me how it is done?

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2022, 04:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: MakeIt on October 03, 2022, 08:26:43 amProbably with a file in a usb flash drive.If it was an openpnp based machine it would be a killer in comparison to "machines" with 3D printed junk frame.My main concern is about it's software. Will they update it overtime and add more features or they will stop updating it when it becomes "stable enough"?

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 02:25:05 pm
content: Just got our machine setup yesterday, and I'm quite impressed so far.Some things I've noticed:Thick components/plastic tape is a bit annoying, but I should have read the manual better in the first place. Solved the issue by loosening the screw in the feeder connected to the metal tension strip and swapping peeler friction "damping ring" for the "1.5N" insert. You can test if you have the right tension by using the manual test on the peeler.The needle for advancing tape is quite aggressive, if it's even slightly off center you'll have parts flying everywhere. I also adjusted it a bit higher (it has slots) because even when aligned it was knocking parts around.The "bulk" tray system works about 95% of the time, it seems to sometimes pick up a part and decides it's 90 degrees off, so it places the part sideways. I haven't figured out the exact cause yet, but aligning the bulk pieces horizontally seems to help, and the two I noticed specifically go in sideways were picked up poorly at the edge instead of the middle. The software isn't smart enough to know what shape the part it picks up should be, so it just guesses the orientation it should be. The stock trays are also slightly reflective from the 3d printing, specifically the ridges, so if you don't adjust the sensitivity, it will try picking up a little splotch of light instead of the part, it would be better if we could define a minimum number of pixels you expect the part to be. We're also going to try and make the trays more matte with a matte black painted sticker.There also isn't a good way to mount big parts, we have a few bits that are bigger than the loose trays, and the tape they're in is wider than any of the feeders we got. My fault for not checking, but I'm thinking I'm going to design some cut tape holders and/or larger bulk feeders myself. If I do get around to it, I'll post the STLs or if I get really keen, some auto-configurable system to let you pick tape width or component size.More just a comment on my own cheapness, but you lose about 30-35 parts (with 4mm tape pitch) for the peeling. I wish the peelers were closer, I'm surprised no one has come up with a design where they're right under the tape so they only need to feed 2-3 inches. Realistically I should have just bought longer cut tapes or full reels, butSpeaking of lost parts, they just get dumped out under the machine if you peel the tape after putting it in the machine, so I might try to lift the machine up an inch or so and put a baking sheet lined with felt or foam to catch parts.Lots of little complaints, but it already exceeds my expectations for the machine, I knew what we were getting into with a budget machine like this. Definitely some fiddly setup, but once it's fully loadded, it will pay for itself in 6 months. Within about 8 hours I've got it programmed with our old design and testing placement of parts. Next step is loading all the parts, and we'll be good to go.Mostly I just wish there were more settings available in the software, so hopefully the machine is popular enough for them to keep up development (or someone figures out how to get OpenPnP to run it)Edit: Matte black paint on a sticker helped a lot, let me decrease the threshold a lot for the downfacing camera. Closing the lid also helped a lot. I also found that you can adjust the contrast/threshold of the up facing camera per feeder, which helped a lot with the rotated parts. I notice originally the camera was only identifying the pads, but adjusting the little setting at the bottom of feeder setup let it see the whole part.I really wish the "test pick" button let me do a whole cycle and pickup the part and bring it over to the camera instead of just putting the nozzle down onto the part (or in the case of the bulk pickup, just highlighting the parts on the screen)

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 02:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: newto on October 07, 2022, 02:25:05 pmThis is why that sort of mechanism makes me a bit uncomfortable, unlike a more traditional feeder. Especially since I sometimes use the sort of parts that might go flying.That being said, I still haven't gone through the effort to have my own PNP setup, as much as I sometimes wish I had one.(Just hand-assemble for prototypes, outsource for low-rate production.)

author: HHaase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: dkonigs on October 07, 2022, 02:59:08 pmI'm not really a fan of the needle advance system either. On my TVM802 I find it to be 'ok' for paper tape components, but very difficult to tune for embossed plastic tape. Tension on the takeup spools becomes utterly critical as well as you don't have something to hold the tape in place other than tension.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 03:13:37 pm
content: Some feedback for tony to check,1- I think they should add a USB and Ethernet and optioanly a wifi to the control board and provide some PC side control software2- I think they should at least double the Nozzle capacity, since haveig only 3 nozzels is quite limiting,3- If they could make the device accpet 23mm x 23mm parts since most Usfull FPGA's parts have 484BGA package which is 23mm x 23mm, the machine would be way more useful.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 03:43:32 pm
content: Here's an update: I placed my order for the YY1 on Sept 26 (funds wired), and they shipped via DHL on Oct 9.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 05:17:46 pm
content: QuoteYou can have up to 4, start with two in the head and two in the holder, and (only) 4 nozzle swaps. Not sure why the software only supports 4 swaps, but if you re-arrange your parts by nozzle size, it should do alright (start with 2 nozzles for your passives, then swap to larger nozzles for your ICs, and then again for bigger parts.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 09:21:03 pm
content: Unfortunately, I received word from Neoden that they will not be updating the software to utilize two fiducials as opposed to the single fiducial that it currently uses. In its current state, it uses the routed edge of the board as an alignment point, which, as you probably know, is not a very accurate means for alignment. The reasoning for not upgrading the software according to the person I spoke with is that the machine is designed as a low-cost machine and therefore they will not be making changes. I assume this will mean other issues with a machine will go unresolved.Although I do like the look of the machine, I don't think I can recommend it over the TVM802 that I also use.

author: level6
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 09:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on October 10, 2022, 09:21:03 pmFrom a previous post I understood that alignment is done using a fiducial and the center of a part. That's not the case? Not having any future firmware updates is a shocker. I've asked for a quote from NeoDen. If this is really the case, then I'll pass.

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 11:06:07 pm
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on October 10, 2022, 09:21:03 pmFrankly, I find that sort of product support attitude to be downright offensive. I only hope it was something from a clueless support rep that got lost in translation, and not the forever truth.This is why the best products are ones made by companies that lack an ulterior motive to protect another product line, and why 3rd party firmware projects exist in the first place.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2022, 12:17:31 am
content: A good manufacturer listen, take user feedbacks and try to implement them if it improve the product. This is what I get from my current manufacturer to the point even their old machine gets software upgrade whenever the old hardware permits them to.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2022, 01:03:30 am
content: I sent a few of my suggestions direct to Tonny, and he said they were already working on matte coatings for the bulk trays, and is sending my recommendation of allowing the "test pick" button to actually pick up parts to test all the feeder settings to the software engineers. That may just be sales guy fluff, but doesn't sound like they've abandoned the development.I do hope someone figures openpnp or a drop in hardware replacement, I doubt Neoden will do any major functional upgrades. If it wasn't a work machine, I'd pull it open and see what it would take to hook up some open source hardware. I can't imagine it's that complicated, just a bunch of stepper drivers, pump, valves, etc. Nothing exotic.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2022, 01:29:29 am
content: Quote from: newto on October 11, 2022, 01:03:30 amI guess you never know, but IMO it's *way* too early for Neoden to abandon software support on this machine! I can see not adding major features, but they would be crazy not to address bugs, or issues and easy features that would otherwise kill future sales of the YY1.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2022, 08:21:37 am
content: QuoteThis is not practical, since the machine has the sapce for it, it's better to add the supported hardware and software, since most designs require more than just 4 nozzles,

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 09:59:00 am
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on October 10, 2022, 09:21:03 pmThis smells a lot like intentionally crippling the machine to protect the more capable (and profitable) machines. Proper alignment of the board using 2 fiducials should not cost more to implement than using one fiducial and one board edge. A typical bad marketing overruling best technical solution example.I would not buy a machine that is so obviously intentionally crippled like this.

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 10:50:34 am
content: Quote from: newto on October 07, 2022, 02:25:05 pmNot so much a response to 'newto' but just a trigger to get started.I partly operate a low-end but professional 25 year old p&p machine for about 3 years now and if I learned anything over that period is that feeders, especially the feeder design, are easily the most critical aspect for a productive and pleasant operational experience.Getting the X/Y/Z movement and accuracy required is relatively easy, go slow enough and even I can make that work. 0402 and 0.5mm pitch QFN's is just easy with vision these days. Every software has it's quirks but has to be really bad not to be useful, and easy to improve over time. But if the design of the feeder is wrong you'll end up regretting buying the machine (if you're honest), because you end up continuously tinkering with settings, fixing all sorts of things all day like mis-picks, issues with tape advancing, cover tape peeling and bouncing components even if the feeder worked well just before. Really, feeder issues due to inherent design flaws can (and certainly will!) significantly reduce productivity and your mental health. Pay a bit more and get a machine with a good feeder design. I know because you will hear me swearing every time over the push-feeder design of the Dima Optimat.By good design I mean that it at least has an individual cogwheel for advancing the tape for each feeder (electric of pneumatic activated) and individual cover tape spool tensioning that is well regulated. Drag- or pushfeeders and feederbanks are an inherently bad design choice in my opinion.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 03:47:28 pm
content: I'm under no illusions that this is a particularly good or robust machine. I think it fits very well with our workflow, but would be miserable for the vast majority of production. Right now we have only 1 board that actually needs dedicated assembly (a few daughter boards that are simple enough to be done by hand in a few minutes, but it was worth bundling with the order for the main boards). I'm pretty sure the shop didn't even set their machines up, and just did them by hand (which is why it cost us so much per board). I expect the first few boards to be a huge pain with a lot of manual re-work, but if we get to less than 10 minutes of manual work doing setup, machine babysitting, re-work, and the hand placed components, that machine pays for itself in 6 months. And even if were to manage only 1-2 boards a day we beat the turnaround of the shop.If you had more than 2-3 designs (or had to swap components in the feeders often), had to build more than a couple dozen boards a day, or your boards were using mostly 0201 or 0402 parts, I would stay well away from this machineFor us, we only do 50-100 boards a year of one design, and it's all 1206 (although I plan to redesign it to 0603 and add a second product with as many shared components as possible in the future). It's going to sit idle in the corner for most of the year, pre-loaded with components, and then whenever we do a new batch of boards we'll double check the feeder settings and placement, and then do 15-20 boards.

author: bugrobotics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 06:42:45 pm
content: I also inquired about a machine and asked specifically about the software bugs and update process. I was told that to update the software you would need to buy a new control board and touchscreen.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 08:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: Styno on October 12, 2022, 10:50:34 amThis.1000% this.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2022, 02:04:57 pm
content: Quote from: bugrobotics on October 12, 2022, 06:42:45 pmOoof, I hope that's not true. Building a machine without software updates in this day and age is ridiculous

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2022, 05:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: bugrobotics on October 12, 2022, 06:42:45 pmI got the same response. That's a deal breaker for me. The only reason to buy it is to convert it to openpnp machine....Quote from: newto on October 12, 2022, 03:47:28 pmThis doesn't make sense. Every shop will do what is cheaper for them. Making a program for a machine, teaching the parts, the feeders, etc is time consuming for the first batch.If it takes me 1 day to make a program you gonna pay 1 day of engineer work plus machine time plus company profit.If someone do it by hand in a couple of hours you will pay for the couple of hours of a simple worker (simple workers are not paid as high as engineer afaik) plus company profit.JLC has cheap assembly foe low qty because they cut down the tooling time and preparation.You use their parts so teaching is already done and parts are already mounted on the machines.

author: drgerber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 13, 2022, 07:33:51 pm
content: Hi,we bought a Neoden4 when they were still pretty new and now also jumped on a YY1 as a backup machine.In-house we are mainly doing prototyping and small batch assembly for our embedded processor systems. Mostly 0402 passive components - sometimes 0201.YY1 arrived quickly and setup was pretty easy. Some learnings from the ND4 helped for sure and kept the frustration level low.Machine needed to be recalibrated for reliable 0402 placement but the on-screen guide made that easy.Feeders are FDM 3D printed. They are more reliable than they are looking but tweaking the friction for the peelers is not that much fun.So after adjusting everything the first few boards were pretty good for what it is. Have the feeling that the feeder settings could still use some tweaking but picking error is low enough for now. Also quickly drafted a single 8mm feeder and printed it with our SLA printer. Came out good and might use it once the next board with 0201 parts comes - so far only 0402 in the YY1 here.Was a little surprised reading that they say the software is not updatable. Nevertheless it looks like they did a good job. Vision works well and I don't see a problem having only one fiducial for that type of machine. I think once you know the weaknesses you can find your way around them.Don't see a reason you would really need a software update. For a low-budget machine it does its job pretty well. Of course it can't compete with larger and more expensive machines - no software update could fix that anyway.If you are looking for shorter feeder setup time and higher accuracy you have to invest quite a bit more. For prototyping the YY1 is the right choice and I'm sure we will have some fun with it.

author: RadioActivePilot
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 03:47:07 am
content: I recently received my YY1. I was looking for a low cost option that would get the job done. I thought about openpnp but I didn't have the time to learn, program, build if necessary etc. For the price, it will pay for itself in a short time. I build about 200 boards per year. Mostly simple boards, but 1 has it's share of "fun".Build process for the YY1 took about an hour. I took pictures along the way. Raise the frame height, remove packaging, add panels, and insert the SD card. Nothing too exciting.I had two boards I needed to get done. One had 8 components, the other 9. Instead of loading data from the cad file, I manually programmed the machine.I did experience a random "jam the head into the side" event. Required a reboot. The reboot button received a lot of use. One thing that is an issue for me is swapping nozzles. Haven't been successful. It gives me a Z axis error every time after swap. Reboot required. I'll look into this more. For now I used a passive component, small nozzle and a large one for ICs. No swaps.Initial thought was, man... This is going to be a pain, as nothing was placing properly. Simple 1206 caps were significantly off.And the SOIC parts, like basic parts, we're off by half a pin. Eventually, I found the password for parameters, and calibrated the head/cameras. That, in conjunction with slowing down placement, and I was a happy camper. Tuning the cameras was not hard but took some work to dial it in.Anyway, back to the first board... All this was by using the vibration feeder and the flexible tape feeder, no reel/peel feeders yet. I actually treated the bulk feeder trays as a flexible feeder. I just set the component in the lower right hand corner of each square, set the location of the first one and the pitch and it picks them up as if it were a flexible feeder even though it was the bulk trays. It's a very flexible setup.I was able to place 20 boards in no time at all. Vibration feeder is nice. Would be nicer if there was room for more tubes. But whatever.The flexible feeder strips I used were great. Set up the pick for the first location, pitch, number of parts, and it cycles through the strip, and back to the first position. After failing to pick, it pauses and gives the option for you to skip that particular component. I wish there were more of these strip feeders, of which you can place anywhere, in any orientation. In fact, I am 3D printing some now. More in that later.Bulk parts... Yeah, great in concept, but getting the machine to recognize how many are in a tray and picking one somewhat near the center doesn't work very well. I did think about reflections and making the base darker or more matte as someone mentioned but I have not tried that yet. Most of the time it will pick up a component but it will definitely place maybe one out of 10 or two out of 10 parts in the wrong orientation. The flexible strip feeders don't have this issue because you set the orientation of the component in which it is picked up. At least I think that's how it works and it will continue to work, as I had no orientation issues picking up from the flexible feeder. Also the camera field of view is just such that it is possible for it to pick up a component from the next bulk feeding position over. So, it is critical that you don't put components near the edge of the bulk feeder box that the camera can see Other than that, I let it place some bulk parts and I just picked them up and corrected them upon inspection if it positioned it 90° from normal.I eventually added a tape and reel in position one. It is easy to set the location of the needle and the part pick location. I set the needle as far back as possible, as to not cause vibration and component to pop out of the tape. Would be nice to have this motor driven, not a solenoid so you could control the speed. Brutal if it is off! This was a 3 mm square QFN. It placed it in the exact position needed, and also on all the boards in my panel (5x2) I did not have any issues with the peeler mechanism. I plan on loading a good majority of the feeders so we will see how that works with different reel material.Running a panel of boards worked for the most part. There was an issue with the third board over, for some reason it thought it was off in space somewhere. It couldn't find the fiducial. Eventually I did a reboot and started the job over and it found it. You can select the particular board you want in a panel and the component that you start with by selecting the component. So, if it placed half the board you can start where it left off after a reboot.Because I had such luck treating the bulk feeder positions as a flexible feeder, in my 3D print model, I modeled several arrays of cutouts, where I can put my large ICs. Actually, I have a real TQFN IC tray that I am going to mount in my 3D print. The TQFN tray is actually fairly sophisticated. So it's easier just to make a place for a section of the TQFN tray (it holds a lot of parts, so I'll cut it to fit). Also included in my 3D print will be an additional 10, 8mm strip feeder locations. These will be used on boards that may get only one placement. In my particular setup, I can fit 25 components in each strip before refilling. So I can do 25 boards and then refill those feeders. I also created indentations for 0603, 0805, 1206 packages. Instead of using the buggy bulk component option, I can just load resistors and capacitors into these indentations and treat it like flexible feeder.Before ordering the machine, I asked about firmware upgrades. He did mention that it would be a board swap and they would walk me through it should that ever need to take place. I wasn't told that I would have to buy a new control board, but who knows.Also, someone mentioned losing components just to feed the tape peeler. For $7 you can order a mouse reel from Mouser... It's cut tape but on a reel with a leader. You have to watch the pricing though. Sometimes it's cost of beneficial just to order a reel of 5,000 resistors for 20 bucks instead of 1,000 resistors for 10 bucks plus a $7 adder for the reel fee. Or if your component count is low just use the flexible feeders and feed cut tape in there. Again, build your own cut tape flexible feeders, 3D printed. When my print is done, I will run some tests to see how well it printed and how well the machine picks up the parts. I might make the CAD models available.Overall, I'm satisfied so far. My board jobs have been piling up and am happy to knock them out.Next step is to import CAD data and run a job instead of manually programming.As I work with the machine, I will be happy to post about progress. I have even taken a couple videos I might find someplace to post them. If anybody has any questions or wants me to try anything let me know!

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 07:41:16 am
content: Thanks for sharing, It would be helpfull if you post some videos on youtube about programing the device also about the issues that you have and if you could have solve them or not.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 08:43:52 am
content: QuoteThat is just ridiculous, and indicates that either they are clueless or have just bought in the board/firmware from someone else & have no control over it.There is simply no excuse for such a poor design decision these days.

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 01:09:50 pm
content: @RadioActivePilotStrange, you can place a QFN 3x3mm with only 1 fiducial. Was it 0.4mm pitch.Can you share a video of the QFN being placed?

author: RadioActivePilot
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 02:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: MakeIt on October 18, 2022, 01:09:50 pmI didn't do a close up video, but will make a special video today or tomorrow. I won't place the whole board, just that part, sans paste. I'll even swap out boards, as a trial for two unique boards, and place another.It was MAX14588. 0.5.What's the best way to share video? Add a YouTube channel?

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 03:40:08 pm
content: I am so glad I did not go with Neoden for my PnP machine.Going off this topic and how a few of their users have reported issues and have had 0 help, really goes to show how crappy NeoDen the company is.Replace the control board for basic software upgrades? Nah this is a joke of a machine...Buyer beware.

author: liviux
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 09:32:00 pm
content: Well, they do have a "part" as the first fiducial and the second point as a fiducial sounds weird indeed. Many said they imported the first board fiducial as a part and made that first part in the list. But still why did they choose to do it this way? Plus most of the time you need 3 fiducials diagonal and horizontal to be extra careful you are aligned well with each board you place in the machine. Waiting for it myself as I think it might be better than the Boarditto on which I had loads of issues with 0402(most of the sizes on my boards) But after days of tinkering and babysitting I could place around 290 total components on both sides in a roughly 38x38mm board so quite a dense layout. But loads and loads of manual corrections. In the end, did around 40 boards with it and I genuinely hate itstill losing 2 hours easily for 4 boards on one side. Hope that yy1 is better for prototyping stuff. I could go for higher quality even from Neoden but for now, space is a luxury I don't have...

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 09:30:27 pm
content: I'm guessing what they've done is made the entire software as flashed onto an IC that doesn't have the option of doing firmware updates from removable memory (or they didn't set it up properly to allow it). If this wasn't a machine paid for by my work, I'd open it up and have a look for a UART port somewhere.I actually whipped up a set of parametric bulk and cut tape feeders with openscad, so that I could make some with bigger boxes for some of our bigger lose components (not super recommended, the upward camera can't see them even in big IC mode, so I have to rely on putting the parts in the exact corner of the box). The strip feeders also allow for wider tapes and variable lengths. Also for variable sizes of neodymium magnets. I did screw up the pins because I forgot that the bottom sets were so close together, and the pair on the right were so close to the metal board holder.Unfortunately I technically designed it on company time, so I'll need to get permission from my boss to post them online, and I'm sure someone else could come up with a much better design.I'm still reasonably happy with the purchase (wasn't my money), but definitely disappointed in the lack of software updates, found another minor issue, when adjusting the strip feeder type (can't remember the name) the move button is extremely slow compared to when in other modes, so if you want to move it from below the board to above, it takes forever. The workaround I found is you can interrupt the auto move to the default location by pressing an arrow buttonf, so at least you don't have to go all the way back across the board, but it's still super slow.I wonder how much of a market an openpnp drop in board would have...

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 09:47:57 pm
content: Got my neoden yy1 in yesterday.One of the metal brackets that holds one of the stepper motors was bent in shipping. Neoden is sending a replacement bracket thankfully.I was able to rig it up so I could still move the gantry around to test some stuff in the mean time.One issue I've come across is that if I set the strip feeder to advance in any increment other than 4mm, it still will only incriminate the tape 4mm. So for instance I've got reels of buttons and connectors that are on 8mm and 16mm spacing and the tape feeder only increments them 4mm at a time which is a problem. I don't know if this is only happening during the pick test and would otherwise work as intended during an actual job run. But since I've got the bent bracket issue I can't test it that fully yet. I sent neoden a video of the issue, so hopefully I hear back from them soon.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:08:01 pm
content: Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on October 20, 2022, 09:47:57 pmIt's only for the test mode, seems to work properly for actual picking. Why they don't use the spacing you enter literally on the same page, I have no idea

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: newto on October 20, 2022, 11:08:01 pmThat's good to know! I was pulling my hair out thinking something was wrong. But ya, that's a strange way to go about it. "Hey do a pick test to make sure things are correct.....oh btw we won't be using the pitch you entered. Youre just going to have to Yolo it and do a job run...hope it's right!" Lol

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:37:17 pm
content: Quote from: Styno on October 12, 2022, 10:50:34 amYup! I ran a 20+year old Philips/Yamaha P&P for 13 years. It was VERY old-school, with mechanical jaws to center parts on the nozzles. That was not accurate for the work I was now doing. Now, I have a 20-year old Quad/Samsung machine with flying vision and auto nozzle changer. The Philips/Yamaha feeders were advanced by a plunger on the head, and springs peeled the cover tape and advanced the component tape when the plunger retracted. This ended up not giving suffcient pull on the cover tape. A CONSTANT issue! I had to watch the machine like a hawk and pull on the tails of the cover tape to keep them from failing to advance.The Quad machine has electronic feeders that have DC motors to advance the tape and a rubber roller to pull the cover tape. The rollers get soft and have to be replaced every decade or so, but they pull the cover tape WAY better than the Yamaha feeders. I have VASTLY fewer feeder issues on this machine as well as much more accurate part placement.So, yes, the feeders are KEY!!! I am super skeptical about those pin feeders, yes simple, and works OK for just a couple boards, but I do small production runs of 25 -50 boards at a time. I'm getting at least 3000 - 4000 PPH on this machine.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:46:55 pm
content: Quote from: RadioActivePilot on October 18, 2022, 03:47:07 amI do boards with HASL, and sometimes the fiducials have specular or frosty finishes, and it confuses the image recognition. On boards where this becomes an issue, I go over the fiducials with an ink eraser to make it all matte. then, the recognition works 100%. Best to decide in advance and do this before applying solder paste.Jon

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 07:18:26 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on October 20, 2022, 11:46:55 pmIs there an option to manually do the fids,i.e. looking at the camera view and adjusting by eye ?As well as for vision issues, This can be handy of you forget to put fids on a board & have to use another hole or pad

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 08:48:26 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on October 20, 2022, 11:37:17 pmThis is a perfect description of handling the Dima mechanical feeders as well. I even modded some of the feeders to add much more spring pull on the cover tape.QuoteElectric feeders sound like pure joy to me, especially if they are 'smart' and talk to the machine so it automatically knows which component is where and how much there is left on the reel. I want to buy a second hand Dima MP-200 that has this feature. It also has a high feeder count (on four sides), compact size, is quite cheap for a serious pick & place and has respectable cph. But management doesn't want a new adventure with an old machine and mfg that left the business.Quote from: jmelson on October 20, 2022, 11:46:55 pmI also find that HASL, especially when left exposed, will develop oxidation or another way of 'frosting' and the fiducials won't reflect well in IR so the crappy vision cannot accurately recognise the fiducial. I use a block with fine sandpaper to make the panel fiducials shiny again and try a gum next time, it sounds less aggressive than sandpaper if it works:)Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 21, 2022, 07:18:26 amOn the Dima, you can disable fiducials entirely but can also teach another board feature (pad, hole or via) as a fiducial as long as it's recognisable enough ('uniqueness factor' in Dima lingo).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 10:15:42 am
content: Quote from: Styno on October 21, 2022, 08:48:26 amMaybe try desolder braid ?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 05:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 21, 2022, 07:18:26 amMy Quad machine does not have this option during running, but it does have a very good diagnostic mode that allows you to test the quality of the fiducial recognition while setting up a run. If fiducial recognition fails during a run, it rejects the board and I can clean the fiducial mark and send it through again. It also has the ability to use a through hole as the fiducial. You just set the fiducial to "black" instead of "white".Jon

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:09:07 pm
content: So I've made about 50 small boards over the weekend with mine.Some thoughts and questions for those who already have a YY1 in use.Question:Has anyone else had inconsistency with the placement of components? I'm placing a panel of boards, using a fiducial and component for alignment. And from one run to the next the placement of the parts varies. One run everything is more or less correct. Next run they'll all be shifted in one direction. Next run, passives will be right, but larger components will be shifted.I've tried every combination of fiducial and component alignment with mixed results.Thoughts:The tape peeling mechanism is really finicky.If the friction of the idler pulley isn't set just right then the tape peeling can fail and cause miss picks.Paper tape has had almost zero issue with the film peeling. But plastic tapes is hit and miss.Tape with film that has a sticky surface can get wrapped up into the peeling mechanism and cause issues.Basically the paper tape components I can walk away from the machine and they'll be fine. But any of the plastic tape reels I have to baby sit.I'm getting aboutt 1150cph real world use. That's with a tool change and picking components from both sides of the machine.Overall I'm happy with it, it's still way faster to PnP than it is to hand assemble these boards even with the constant baby sitting the machine. And if I can get the board alignment to be consistent between runs then I'll be a happy camper.

author: drgerber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 09:29:37 pm
content: Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on October 24, 2022, 08:09:07 pmInteresting. No, haven't see such issues yet. Sometimes single 0402 resistors are a little off but nothing that really worries me so far.0402 caps and larger passives are placed perfectly usually.Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on October 24, 2022, 08:09:07 pmFor me it's almost the opposite. Haven't had an issue with 8 mm plastic tape yet. On a few feeders the paper tape was slipping through when the peeler was working. Adjusted the metal spring in the feeder a little to compensate for that.Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on October 24, 2022, 08:09:07 pmRoughly the same here in a run with 260 components per board / vision enabled / all 8 mm feeder used. Set the machine to 50 % speed only. Haven't tried anything faster yet.Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on October 24, 2022, 08:09:07 pmYes, I'm also pretty happy with the machine. Setup is easy and for the low price stunningly usable. Perfect for prototypes and small runs. The early days with the NeoDen4 were a lot more troublesome as far as I remember.

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: drgerber on October 24, 2022, 09:29:37 pmHmmm. Did you have to do anything special with the fiducials or camera threshold to get consistent board pick ups? As it is right now, I can pick up the board and everything looks ok, then the next run it may be off slightly. I'm wondering on my setup if maybe it's not picking up the fiducial super accurately every time.QuoteIve been running it at the default speed of 70% and when it's picked up the board correctly it does fine. But maybe I need to slow it down a little bit.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 02:58:38 pm
content: Something I've noticed with the peeler wheels is that they can get "stuck" if left for a few days. It's easy the break the friction by manually turning it back just to break the stickiness, and then it runs fine. Some tapes don't seem to matter, but if you've loosened the metal thing a bit, it can unpeel some tape and screw up the pin placement.I'll probably add "turn all the wheels back before operating" to the procedure.QuoteCheck if your belts are loose, and if any of the moves crash the head somewhere (watch the nozzle changes especially). I managed to run one of the nozzles into another nozzle in the holder doing some testing, setup a couple feeders, and then when I restarted, all my pick positions were off because the machine thought the head was slightly further to the left after missing steps during the crash.

author: drgerber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 04:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on October 24, 2022, 10:37:00 pmNo, not that I remember. What I do for every batch is to set the datum coordinates in the parameters menu to compensate for the tooling frame.Quote from: newto on October 24, 2022, 10:37:00 pmyes, this also happened once to me when a tape blocked the feeder. Unfortunately an open loop system.

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 10:48:22 am
content: Hi,I have also received my machine. First of all I have to say that, Im amazed for such an affordable machine. The built quality is very nice.I havent had time to assemble any boards. But at least I tried the demo board with 0402 caps. At first I had alignment and offset issues. Then I calibrated nozzles and cameras, I also changed to a more suitable nozzle, it was perfect placement at 70% speed.I also noticed one strange problem, there was a sunshine inside. It was exactly coming to the X-axis limit switch. When I turned on the machine, it couldnt find the home, also hit the end. Later, I realized that the sensor is affected by the light!I believe this hardware is good, but SW needs a little tricks although it is simple. Some mods would be needed for some parts.BTW the touch screen HMI is from DWIN. It is a dual core device I believe. I had the datasheet of their IC.Regards,Caner

author: liviux
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 06:46:29 pm
content: How did you imported the file ? It gives me an file error was something special done to CAD csv ?

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 07:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: liviux on November 03, 2022, 06:46:29 pmI just made a test file on the machine itself then take out the SD card and import the information from your CAD program that spits out the positional data.The yy1 file format has to be formatted specifically for the machine to understand it. So just reference one of the files the machine creates itself.

author: liviux
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 12:01:36 am
content: Yeah did that too. It worksFirst ever test looks promising. I needed to adjust the origin of the machine to be able to see the parts exactly right. placement seems on point too.

author: liviux
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 08:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: newto on October 25, 2022, 02:58:38 pmMan, this happened to me too!!!Plus I have some 0402 resistors with thinner tape that might need 1.5nM rings on them. Fixed that on 0402 LED's too. 0402 caps seem to have no issues on 2.5nm cause their tapes are thicker.

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 10:09:42 pm
content: Here is a short video review I did of my neoden yy1 after making about 400 small esp32 boards (40 panels). What I like and dislike about the machine.https://youtu.be/7w5U1qxXqKI

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 12:33:52 am
content: Thanks for making that video! Re. the sticky peeler tape, could you just clamp an alligator clip or clothes-pin to the tape and let gravity work for you? You could re-position the clip after a foot of tape has peeled, or lead the tape over the edge of the table for a longer drop. Not a perfect solution, I will admit...

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 12:58:50 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on November 15, 2022, 12:33:52 amYeah I tried a few different attachment options to the tape itself to hold it down with, but didn't have a ton of luck. I did wrap a bolt into the end of the film and that seemed to work, but was less than ideal as I would have to adjust it all the time as the tape got longer.Ideally I'd like to come up with something that is pretty much hands off and doesn't need a ton of playing around with. I was hoping the 3D printed cover would work but it still manages to stick to the top wheel and get sucked up under the cover anyways.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 02:06:40 pm
content: Sorry for being so late getting back to anyone. My findings on this machine:Plastic tape parts - just forget about them. The cover tape either pulls the carrier tape through and you dump parts or the pull needle gets stuck and when it pulls out of the hole the tape shakes and parts are lost. There are some adjustments that can help with the carrier tape pull, but I don't know any way to fix the issue with the needle getting stuck and disrupting parts.Placement head accuracy - I have one particular component that I cannot use the camera for alignment. That's a whole other story, but suffice it to say that there's enough give in the design that I really don't have to use any optical alignment. Just pick it out of the tape and rotate it 180° and place it. Problem is that occasionally it will pick up the part and then just rotate it about 15° and then it will place it on the board with this angle error.Up camera settings - there does not seem to be any setting that I can adjust that give us the machine the ability to place all components. For example, I'm placing a 3535 LED on a board and If I adjust the up looking camera so that is consistent with recognizing the outline of this part, it will not recognize the outline of QFPs. The camera settings need to be adjustable per component type but they aren't.Developed a squeak in the placement head - I haven't quite figured out it if it is the stepper motor or perhaps one of the bearings.Neoden does seem like they are interested in the issues, but I'm really not getting much other than requests for videos and a couple of very basic suggestions. The machine really does need some software fixes as well as some issues with a feeders resolved.It's a pity because the machine looks really nice, especially compared to my TVM 802. However, the TVM 802 just works. My intent was to purchase several of these YY1 picking place machines, assigning each one to just a few circuit boards from an individual customer. Customer. If a customer needed additional boards built, I would just add an additional YY1. This would give me redundancy in the event of a machine failure, would handle the low volume manufacturing that I have going on and also be aesthetically pleasing when a customer wanted to visit the facility.

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 05:12:28 pm
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on November 15, 2022, 02:06:40 pmif its pulling through tape that it shouldn't be, like if you pick parts on feeder 1 and its slowly pulling the tape forward in feeder 2, there are metal tabs in each feeder that you can adjust to apply more pressure upward to hold the tape firmer to the ceiling of the feeder tray so it wont slide forward when other tapes are being picked. hope that makes sense.Quote from: eflyersteve on November 15, 2022, 02:06:40 pmim pretty sure the up facing camera threshold can be adjusted per component. its under each of the feeder settings menu.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2022, 11:26:09 pm
content: At this price point with 40+ feeders I'm seriously tempted to get one and try it...How hard would it be to replace just one reel?, as the mounting rod goes through all the reels.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 12:23:58 am
content: Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on November 14, 2022, 10:09:42 pmOne fiducial only? Why

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 01:01:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2022, 12:23:58 amMy assumption: If it uses optical adjustment for each component, then it would only need only one reference point to roughly know where the components are supposed to go. But it could be it doesn't. I didn't watch the video entirely so I might have skipped over that detail. What does put me off though is that the machine is quite tedious to use. If I ever wanted to setup my own assembly line, I'd probably go for a machine that needs less baby sitting / fiddling.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 01:03:55 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 18, 2022, 01:01:55 amThat would rule out practically every open source DIY one and sub $5k commercial ones?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 01:20:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2022, 01:03:55 amI didn't research that far -yet-. I strongly prefer to outsource assembly (and for several designs there is no way around that due to complexity) but for some simple & cost sensitive products my go-to assembler is rather busy so lead times are unacceptably long at this moment (to put it mildly). So I'm looking at alternatives including doing assembly myself but really want to avoid turning that into a project in itself. I already have some solder paste application gear sitting on a shelve. Not sure I would invest in a pick & place as assemblers get pretty good discounts from component distributors. But I think I'm going to see what JLCPCB, Seeed, etc can do prise-wise first.

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 02:48:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 17, 2022, 11:26:09 pmThere are actually little guides one the bottom/back/top of that opening that kind of hold the reels up and in place. So you can pull that rod out without all the reels falling over/out. It's a little delicate, but I've added reels after having several already in there and haven't had any issues.

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 02:51:30 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 18, 2022, 01:01:55 amIt doesn't have any vision adjustment like you speak of.Technically it uses a PCB origin point for X/Y (bottom right corner of your board) and then one fiducial and one component. That is how I believe they basically triangulate the board for alignment. It's not a perfect system, but it works well enough in my use cases.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 07:26:53 am
content: What exactly fo you mean by one component? Does it try to vision pasted pads?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 12:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on November 18, 2022, 02:51:30 amThat sounds crazy. If you can do one fiducial then you can do two. Board corners and components are a very poor way to do alignment, that's what fiducials are for.

author: aholtzma
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 02:52:53 pm
content: It is a very simple (mostly) open loop system. At the start of a board it looks at the fiducial and corrects for board misalignment. After that it's just plopping down parts at their corrected x/y co-ordinates. It doesn't know anything about what the board or pads look like. If the head gets jammed on anything and loses track of where it is, you need to recalibrate the upward looking camera so it knows where the nozzle is. Sometimes you also need to recalibrate the feeder positions as well, which is a pain.That said, once it you get it in a happy place, it will happily place thousands of parts without issue. We bought it to take the drudgery out of putting together prototypes and so far it has done that well.

author: sam512bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 03:19:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 17, 2022, 11:26:09 pmI agree. However, the show stopper for me is the inability to update the firmware without buying/changing the controller... at least that what was someone stated a number of posts back.Cheers,Sam

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 03:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 17, 2022, 11:26:09 pmYeah, I'm thinking about getting one as well. I don't need it to do a complete assembly - if it can place all of the passives, I can then place remaining big parts manually. I like that you can 3d print cut tape holders for some of unique components for a specific assembly job without hassle of messing with reels. My thinking is to load reels of commonly-used passives, which usually make up a bulk of a BOM, then add some ad-hoc parts via cut tape/tray/loose, and then place few remaining big components by hand.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 03:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: sam512bb on November 18, 2022, 03:19:22 pmIt if works well enough out of box, I'm not really concerned with the lack of updates. I understand that at this price point something has to give.

author: sam512bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 03:31:06 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on November 18, 2022, 03:20:14 pmI was thinking the same thing... I am using this approach for my older Juki/Zevatech and it works really well. My old machine cannot really do 0402's and so this machine would be quite well suited for these parts, etc.Quote from: asmi on November 18, 2022, 03:24:36 pmUnderstood... but...field firmware updating is not a new thing and would not have "truly" added to the overall development cost. Although you say that you are not concerned about firmware updates, I think your view would change if you had to reboot the machine periodically or if your particular design revealed some other issues. Once the majority of issues have been sorted, then yes, firmware updates may not be a big deal. However, in my experience software/firmware always have bugs, it is just they have not yet revealed themselves...Cheers,Sam

author: Hyperlite2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 03:57:08 pm
content: I received this machine about 2 weeks ago and have assembled 20 panels of 5 boards. Each panel has around 100 parts. It works as well as or better than I imagined it would for 4k. I love that it will pick fairly tall components.It does require a bit of baby sitting, but assembled the boards way faster than by hand and really doesn't have much trouble. The feeders work reasonably well, but I have some sot23 transistors that seems to have no chance of feeding. They pop out every time, but work well in the stationary strip feeder, so I am happy.If you want something that you can let loose and walk away for a few hours, you'd need something much better and likely with a conveyor. I think most people would be happy and get better than expected results from a 4k machine.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 04:48:19 pm
content: Quote from: sam512bb on November 18, 2022, 03:31:06 pmYou get what you pay for. Want flawless experience and lifetime upgrades? Well, you'd better be ready to shell out 40K+$, and I guarantee that you will still have issues every once in a while. I understand a desire to "get it all" for cheap, but there is no such thing as a free lunch. This machine can pay for itself quite quickly, so it might be possible to just buy a new board upgrade every so often if that's what it takes to get updates and you absolutely need them.Also, if worst come to worst, I think it shouldn't be too hard to retrofit machine for OpenPnP, even though judging by the reviews and comments I've seen so far, this machine seems to behave fairly well out of box once you figure out how to properly set it up.

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 05:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on November 18, 2022, 04:48:19 pmI'm sorry, but excusing this sort of behavior is exactly what lets it persist. Nearly everything of this complexity has bugs at launch, most of which will be discovered once it leaves the factory, and the need for fixes is commonplace. Also, there's a ton of equipment far less expensive than even this that gets regular firmware updates, even if they're all just to fix tiny little corner-case issues that don't constitute a major engineering effort. And making the firmware upgradable on something like this in this day and age is not a burdensome feature to add. Its pretty much an expected one. Even if they don't plan to release any major overhauls or release updates with major new capabilities, simply refusing to even be able to fix random bugs is inexcusable.Say what you will about the hardware itself... I'm personally a bit skeptical of drag feeders, though they may be fine. But the lack of any ability to update the firmware is pretty much a dealbreaker from even considering a machine like this. I really hope that was just a sales/marketing person misspeaking and not a deliberate engineering decision.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2022, 05:37:32 pm
content: Quote from: dkonigs on November 18, 2022, 05:12:38 pmFine, don't buy it then, go find another machine which can do what this one can, and which will come with free updates, and see what kind of money will you have to part with to get it. Having a choice is a great thing! But don't tell others what to do with their money. Like I said above, everything has it's price, software updates included. Infact I would argue that this is among the most expensive parts of the whole package, and so it's good that we now have an option to not pay for it if we feel like we don't need it, or that we are OK with paying extra for updates. The only thing is that they should openly disclose this fact before someone makes a purchase such that there would be no surprises down the road.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 02:27:21 am
content: Quote from: asmi on November 18, 2022, 03:24:36 pmAgreed. A lack of updates wouldn't concern me at this price if it works fairly reliably out of the box.Unexpected Maker on Twitter just told me that his experience with NeoDen support has been pretty horrible, so that's kinda

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 03:30:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 02:27:21 amYou can probably make enough videos about that machine that it will pay for itself even if it won't manage to assemble a single boardI know I'm super-interested in such content, and I suspect a fair amount of others are too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 03:41:04 am
content: Quote from: asmi on November 19, 2022, 03:30:55 amWell, $5k worth of content is actually a lot of content (a good video might earn $200 in revenue), but yeah, use, abuse, make content, and then sell it if it's not useful to me, and there is no way I could lose.The onyl question is really, do I want to really spend time making PnP machine contentCould be fun, or could be a huge time sink.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 03:42:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 02:27:21 amWhen did you last get something relying on complex software that worked reliably out of the box? It won't be long before every single piece of electronics you buy logs on to an update server the first time you switch it on, to get the latest code because it shipped with half finished stuff, which is a far as they'd got before selling units. We aren't quite there yet. My neighbour's first batch VW ID4 was over 40k pounds and shipped with half finished software, and hardware that can't update.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 03:46:07 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 19, 2022, 03:42:19 amIn this case by "fairly reliably" I mean the mechnical side of things in the actual pick and placement process. If there are software limitations then it's likely they could be worked around.Kinda like how I used Altium Designer as a professional and you leanred to work around all the bugs that had been there unfixed for a decade.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 04:07:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 03:41:04 amI hope you will go for it if anything but only for exposure, such that if you do find any problems, Neoden is much more likely to do something about them than if some random nobody (like me) complains about them, and so it will make things better for other users down the road. It probably will take a fair amount of time, like all PnP machines do, to get to grips with machine and it's quirks.And maybe - just maybe - this machine will motivate you to finally complete some of your old projectsI mean, I'm guilty of that too - got plenty of "perpetually in progress" projects that I can't get around to completing for one reason or another, and current chipageddon certainly doesn't make things better in this regard, but still I love seeing projects come to fruition, that is very rewarding.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 04:19:02 am
content: Quote from: asmi on November 19, 2022, 04:07:47 amThat's a potential side benefit. If it's there and I know it kinda works well enough, then it might motivate me to do small batch projects.I do like making my stuff here, I used to have my uCurrent's assembled in Australia in a small factory that uses disabled workers.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 05:02:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 04:19:02 amI've taught my wife to assemble boards (both via paste-and-oven and manual soldering), now she can do that faster than I canShe knows nothing about electronics, but apparently that is not a requirement for successful assembly of hundreds of boardsIt's just some of my boards contain upwards of 400 parts, with like 90% of them being 0402 and 0603, so getting a machine which can place them would save us both a ton of time. Even if it would require babysitting, I'd much rather watch machine place parts than place them myself by hand - especially for qual and pre-prod batches which are not as exciting as first prototypes because at qual/pre-prod stage you pretty much already know that they will more-or-less work, while with protos anything can happen

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 07:15:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 03:46:07 amThat depends on the limitations. A p&p crashing part way through a job can cost real money in wasted parts, not to mention time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 09:10:42 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 19, 2022, 07:15:00 amYes, but if you already tested and tweaked it to make it work on the first panel, then it's likely not going to be a software/firmware problem that prevents it working on future panels. Its far more likely to be a mechnical reliability related issue.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 09:17:11 am
content: Quote from: asmi on November 19, 2022, 04:07:47 amI don't particually like the idea of becoming NeoDen's QA engineer, and getting paid a pittance for it to boot.But I suspect that there isn't a sub $5k PnP machine out there that is going to not give me problems.I was hoping that might not be the case here because Neoden is at least a larger player that's been around a bit. Heck, I've even seen them on the dealer stand at the Electronex show here in Australia. So not exactly some tinpot name. But it seems that this one has problems, and that Neoden don't have the best support rep. Shame.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 11:48:49 am
content: I'm just wondering whether people have made upgrades to improve a P&P machine. If it is cheap enough, then it might be worthwhile to up-hack it a bit.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 12:31:15 pm
content: Dave, have you spoken with Ramzi at Embedded Logic Solutions? They are the local NeoDen distributor. They seem to be limited by NeoDen in the support they can offer, but maybe there is some interest in providing a machine for review/critique.I have a NeoDen TM240A which has no vision and terrible feeder system. It is also starting to shows its age, and I need to do some maintenance. It doesn't support software upgrades (I think this is an IP protection strategy), and there are a few bugs that cause it to hang and require a power cycle. But despite sometimes poor placement accuracy it still saves me time and back pain on small runs, typically doing 20-200 PCBs in a run and I might do half a dozen runs a year between my customers.I see the YY1 as a toy but it is certainly an incremental improvement on the TM240A, and as a TM240A owner I can understand the attraction in having some low cost some automation. The prices jump a lot to a more capable machine that uses real feeders, and then you have the usual nightmare of selecting the right machine ... just like comparing competing DMMs or Scopes.I also have Unexpected Makers old Charmhigh in my factory, and have been slowly getting familiar with it and fixing small issues. I recently ran the first simple job on it and some of the feeders Seon gave me were definitely problematic. I've got more feeders on order so I can attempt some more complex jobs, and see if despite the problems it will be usable for my volume.If I was to buy a new machine, I would be hesitant to get another NeoDen or Charmhigh at this point ... but I probably still would as assembly for me is just a side revenue in addition to the consulting work, and I don't need the high reliability of a CM. CL feeders are a must for me now, especially as I've now invested more $$$ in them than the two machines.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 04:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 09:17:11 amThat seems to be the new trend - no matter if you buy a 30$ gadget or a 100000$ car, you still run a real risk of becoming a QA engineer...

author: sam512bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 08:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on November 18, 2022, 04:48:19 pmWait a second here... no one suggested free support or free upgrades/updates and especially for life. The price point is indeed very nice and so one must or should not expect perfection. I was and am not suggesting otherwise. What I am saying is that for the machine not to be designed to allow for future field updates is problematic and for me a show stopper. Buying a replacement board for an upgrade is not necessarily a problem... unless one has to spend a ton of time to dismantle and reassemble the machine with the new controller... or if the updated controller/firmware is a significant price when compared to the original purchase price... or the new controller/firmware has other issues and/or affects your past placement setups, etc.At the price of this unit, I would be totally happy to pay a reasonable $ for a firmware update, but something that could be done easily and quickly in the field. My time is worth something along with the potential of causing issues with the machine when disassembling and reassembling to install a new controller/firmware. This is especially so if the new controller/firmware renders past placement setups problematic and so time/effort to redo these setups.As for designing equipment for field firmware updates... these days it is trivial and adds little impact to a product's development cost and so the comment about "you get what you pay for" is really quite myopic. Twenty years ago it was challenging to do easy field firmware updates (although I was able to design gear with this capability without much trouble), but these days... notta issue at all.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 10:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 17, 2022, 11:26:09 pmVideo-wise this could be interesting if done with a specific aim, e.g. taking manufacture of ucurrent in-house, or manufacturing a new product. That way you could compare the pros/cons of in-house vs. subcontracting , both in terms of time and cost.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 10:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on November 19, 2022, 12:31:15 pmDoes that mean NeoDen are somehow preventing them providing support to customers?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 10:33:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2022, 12:42:55 pmUnless your software people have such poor maths skills that they can't figure out how to compensate for board rotation... Wouldn't surprise me.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 12:04:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 10:30:14 pmGoing off my experience (not from Neoden mind you) of setups like this with Chinese suppliers..If the supplier guys know the problem or can work it out, you are dealing with them directly.If they can't work it out, they just go back and ask the Chinese company and get the same level of support as the end user going direct to China. It is just routed through them, the supplier.Of which the Chinese support can be summarised as "the machine and software works fine, you  are doing something wrong".And nothing you say will change their mind otherwise. It looks to be a cultural thing over there that any foreigner who uses their kit, is the problem not their hardware or software. It is you.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 12:23:47 am
content: Quote from: Jackster on November 20, 2022, 12:04:18 amIn my experience it is more likely they simply have no idea on how it should work. More often than not the engineers don't speak any English so you are left with a totally non-technical person (typically somebody from the sales or PR department) trying to translate in between. Things get worse if the party you are dealing with, is just shoving boxes to outside of China from some manufacturer inside China.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 12:46:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 10:30:14 pmSpares have to come from NeoDen

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 12:53:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 10:30:14 pmThis is exactly the problem - EMLogic cannot get any parts to fix may machine, because Neoden will not send them any parts. The list of un-resolved HW issues on my machine date back to 3 months after purchase (21 months ago) and none of them have been resolved. apart from 1, where Neoden replaced a blown board with another blown board, telling me they had tested it first... total BS, they sent a 3rd which did work... I was down for almost 2 weeks with them making excuses. the entire time they blamed me.Here is a list of outstanding issues on my machine Neoden refuse to address:- Incorrectly working rear camera/lighting module (cant use the back left hand side feedes as vision wont work moving left to right over the camera)- Incorrectly working front camera/lighting module (have to run the brightness at 3x the default to get it to see parts - but unfortunately blows out other brighter parts). Bad or failing vision.- Damaged rear communications controller board (visible blown caps on the board - scorch marks)- 5 unworking or incorrectly working 8mm Neoden electric feeders- in warranty - wont replace.And as of yesterday...- un-working pick and place head # 6 due to a faulty controller board in the PnP head unit preventing air control on head 6 - no way to shut off the air, and it's blowing all over the board and I'm trying to PnP, pushing small components out of placeSeriously folks - Don't buy a Neoden - it's not that their hardware is that bad, but they don't stand by it - they wont fix HW issues - they wont replace faulty parts, and it's all proprietary HW, with no docs, no part numbers, and everything is conformal coated.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 09:37:36 am
content: Quote from: seon on November 20, 2022, 12:53:44 amThans Seon, I think I'll pass on the Neoden then. It's shame, it's a new model that on paper look great for the price.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 11:49:24 am
content: The message that mentions a Neoden machine showing its age...I wonder what that age is? Given that 90s machines from Panasonic, Fuji, universal, Philips/ Yamaha etc are still putting down parts after every feeder lane has put down many millions of parts and some of those machines are very cheap used on ebay.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 12:04:01 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on November 20, 2022, 11:49:24 amThey are also huge and usually have big power and air requirements.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 01:21:26 pm
content: Yes, my two Universal Instruments Genesis machines are 3500 kg each and the space, power and air requirements are considerable. Though the higher end Neoden stuff starts to get closer in price to used mainstream brands. There's a Juki in Melbourne on Australian ebay for a few thousand.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 03:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on November 20, 2022, 11:49:24 amThese things are cheap for a reason. Luxury cars can be very cheap to buy after just a few years use, but can you afford to even keep one supplied with fuel, let alone its other ongoing costs?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 05:12:19 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on November 20, 2022, 11:49:24 amI guess this would be in reference to what I wroteQuoteThe NeoDen TM240A was something I acquired second hand for next to nothing (a habit of mine). I've had it almost 6 years, so I'd guess it was 8+ years old. That isn't particularly old for a "real" PnP, but I'd suggest it is for a small budget desktop machine which has had next to no maintenance due to lack of spare parts. The vacuum pump and drag feeder mechanism probably both need replacing, if I can be bothered to find or fabricate replacements.

author: sam512bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 06:25:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2022, 12:04:01 pmGood day Dave,It depends on the older machine. My Juki/Zevatech machine (PM575) weighs around 450 kg, but have built in rollers so you can move it around before advancing the levelling feet. The unit runs off single phase voltage from a standard residential electrical circuit. Over here that is 120VAC on a 15A circuit and the overall draw is low. Air requirements are modest in that you can use a small compressor. The machine can be loaded on all 4 corners with a mixture of feeders... 8/12/16/24mm, shaker tubes, trays, etc with an automatic tool/nozzle changer (max 8 ). Max feeder count is 128 - 8mm feeders. Sadly, the software is DOS based and so is a bit clunky to use. However one of your countrymen has created a great windows based software (PCBSynergy... which is free) that allows for direct importing of Altium (and other format) PCB files to the Juki/Zevatech format. So the only DOS software you need to use is for setting up and operating the machine. The unit is a tank with fantastic quality and workmanship, however, it is old (but there are companies/people that continue to support the machine) and so one should be technically skilled in case anything does arise. The two SMT negatives are the max component height restriction and the smallest part is 0603, although I have heard some have been able to go as low as 0402. Price-wise... these can be found for as little as $2K US with feeders. I was thinking that if I had the time I would update the unit to OpenPnP, etc as the core infrastructure (gantry is servo based) is really impressive.Cheers,Sam

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 08:08:26 pm
content: Couple of YT vids :

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 09:04:54 pm
content: One thing to keep in mind with Neoden - they don't use their machines in production, and from my experience, have very little knowledge of production requirements outside of making LED panels... so they make really weird and bad design choices on their machines.For example, on the K1830, you can't use 12mm + electric feeders on the back, because they don't fit. If you mount them, they sit angled up, and the door wont close! You can only fit 8mm electric or have to go pneumatic. 12mm+ electric only fit on the front, and their excuse as to why they felt that was ok was that they felt it's easier to access the larger feeders from the front?!?!?! So they stupidly removed our option to use both sides of their PnP with full electric setups!!!Core Electronics in NSW (Australia) got slammed with that, as Neoden happily sold them all electric feeders, and did not bother to tell them they could not use any of the 12mm+ sizes on he back.... infuriating.. and still not fixe on current K1830 machines. They did make the door smaller, so it doesn't rest on the feeders, but the feeders still sit janky on an angle (so pick is not perpendicular to the nozzle)... and they feel that's an ok compromise !!!They also sold them large electric (42mm I think) that they had never even tried on their machines.... and of course, they did not work!I had lots of problems with my cameras failing to recognise DFN and WSON components after 3 months of recognising them perfectly fine... they tried to blame oxidisation on my parts and other silly things, but it turned out to be (and still unresolved) a camera lighting module issue... but when I asked them to prove to me it's my parts and not the camera, by showing me a machine of theirs mounting the parts correctly, they admitted they had never tried any parts like those on their machines before. There was a list of components they had never tried to mount n their machines before they started shipping them!!!!You gotta eat your own dogfood if you are going to sell machines like this.If I sound a little salty about all of this... I am. I gave them 18 months to fix all of these issues... I never publicly outed them, I kept giving them more and more videos and evidence of my issues, and they kept stalling and side stepping HW related issues... and ultimately, after 2 years, they fixed nothing.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 09:33:57 pm
content: I also realized one issue with feeder position calibrations. I think the motor steps are not calculated correctly therefore the positions gets off slightly at each movement, especially when it moves from one edge to another.I believe there is a SW issue. All the time I adjust the positions of the feeder, they get slightly off after couple of movements.Caner

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 09:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: sam512bb on November 20, 2022, 06:25:14 pmI want something that fits on a bench.I just cleaned up my bunker and have bench space. I don't want to take up floor space.https://odysee.com/@eevblog:7/2022-10-16-Bunkercleanup:3?lid=683479174b8295da964769487c4f1dd8a8bacc49

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 09:57:58 pm
content: There is a used NeoDen 3v on ebay:https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/403998192799

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 02:12:48 am
content: Machine within the bench size diameter and budgets is somehow not a market these Chinese pick and place machine wanted to further invest anymore. This is probably due the high quantity these machine would sell but at a very small margin. This in return brings back a very tall order to support them. Add that slight language barrier (I say slight because they all somehow speak English to a certain extend) Charmhigh for example told me they ain't making new bench machine back in 2019. So does QiHe that has the TVM802 model for so many years but now only concentrate on the larger full body machine. QiHe though as you guys might have seen on the TVM802 thread on this forum does have software upgrade from time to time although not that frequent. But if anyone would insist on such sized and budget machine, I would recommend looking at ZhengBang as their existing benchtop machine is not bad. I was considering their ZB3545TP and studied all their software videos (probably the most intuitive and simple software on P&P I have ever seen) before ended up with other larger machine from HWGC. The rest of machine in the similar range wouldn't come close to it at least on paper. But, how much of support from ZB is not something I would know although I did met them personally back in China once. But if this is the machine size and budget that you need and can afford, you have to accept the fact that you will need to learn to work around it. Else it might just ended up as another unit on EBay or Craigslist.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 02:27:37 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on November 21, 2022, 02:12:48 amThanks.Looks to be around AUD$10k, no idea if that includes feeders.EDIT: Seems to be compatible with Yamaha feedershttps://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005002731566827.html

author: sam512bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 03:42:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2022, 09:55:43 pmUnderstood. However, the "heft" is somewhat needed in order to keep everything in its place when the gantry is moving at speed (around 2metres/second). The original desktop PnP machines tended to drop components, etc when operating at a reasonable speed. I recognize that speed is not the focus for all, but mass matters at times.Desktop has it charms, but it is a double edge sword. My machine is around 1m square and about 1.4m tall and so it is not overly big and fits nicely in a small room I have.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:03:39 am
content: Quote from: sam512bb on November 21, 2022, 03:42:53 amIf there was a small footprint floor standing unit at a good price in Sydney then I'd be very tempted. They rarely come up for used sale though.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:04:40 am
content: This place in Melbroune sells used PnP machines.https://www.resurface.com.au/used-equipment/pick-and-place

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:50:50 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2022, 04:04:40 amResurface is Hawker Richards - You'll need a 3rd mortgage and possibly to sell one of your kidneys to afford one of those machinesSeonUnexpected Maker

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:53:11 am
content: Quote from: seon on November 21, 2022, 04:50:50 amAh, didn't know that, thanks.Yeah, sell a kidney.I think maybe I should just assemble the old LitePLace kit I have!Might wander down to the bunker now and see what shape the kit is in...

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 05:23:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2022, 04:53:11 amI think you should just buy a YY1 - if they sell enough of them, they wont be able to abandon their customers. If they do abandon you all, hopefully there will be enough of you out there to come up with a plan to maybe get OpenPnP working on it, or at least find ways to solve issues Neoden wont fix.The risk is low on the YY1 in terms of investment, so maybe just take the chance. You wont find anything else in the price range you want that is worth buying instead, new or used, IMHO.BTW - I'm in MelbourneSeonUnexpected Maker

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 05:58:18 am
content: The LitePLacer place.I had no idea this was 7 YEARS OLD!

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 05:59:43 am
content: QuoteOr it could end up like S1. Discontinued and create another company, rebrand and sell it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:29:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2022, 05:58:18 amBitluni did a short vid on the Liteplacer

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:41:13 am
content: Well, the poll on the video above is overwhelmingly BUILD IT.Does everyone realise it doesn't have any feeders and will actually be of no use assembling real boards in any sort of volume?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:42:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2022, 08:41:13 amAdding Yamaha feeders = more content!

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 09:41:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2022, 08:41:13 amLook, Dave, we're all here for the shits and giggles. Not for you getting actual work done. You picked the wrong circus with the wrong clowns

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 10:14:56 am
content: Yes Dave actually getting a working result is less fun than the rabbit holes he goes down. Those are always more of a learning experience for all, because the explanation of what went wrong is always going to result in a better result.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 11:48:34 am
content: I'm not sure what kind of machine is needed for doing boards at low volume. I think something that just puts down a few of the common caps could be handy, but on modern designs they're probably 0402 imperial or smaller so vision and nozzles need to be decent.I used a suction pen for a long time. On smaller boards I think it would take quite a while to teach the feeders and parts to the machine, depending on the software. I was setting up a new board today on my machines which only had 1 part the wasn't already on a feeder but it still took me quite a long time to import the files, check rotations, teach the new part and pick location, program SPI and teach fiducials.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on November 21, 2022, 11:48:34 amI wouldn't bother doing boards in-house unless I could put down most if not all the parts.Future projects would likely be tailored around the limitations of the machine.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on November 21, 2022, 11:48:34 amThis can be made pretty efficient with the right setup, e.g my PCB library is set up with consistent orientation to the taping, fuducials are special components in the design. By far the most time is loading parts in feeders. For parts already loaded I can vo from PCB file to placing in 5-10 mins easily

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 12:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2022, 12:08:09 pmI believe Neoden YY1 is quite good for this purpose. However there are improvements needed. Either someone needs to hack it or Neoden should give a support with some FW fixes. When I talked to them, they said they are checking if it is possible to update the board. If there is a an mcu, it shouldnt be ultra hard to program it.Caner,Alp Electronix

author: Jeremiah
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:07:49 pm
content: I agree with what Seon stated about NeoDen. NeoDen could address many hardware and software issues if they just used their own machines in production. The problems become obvious just by running a few different board designs. They could learn for companies in the hobby market such as Prusa and Opulo which use their own machines in production.I have found that the only way to get hardware fixed by NeoDen is to buy the parts from them. I spend a lot of time sharing bugs in the NeoDen4 software which were never addressed. I moved to OpenPnP in the end with a small group of NeoDen4 users. This was a huge process due to proprietary drivers which had to be reversed engineered.The YY1 does look interesting given the price point. The software UI looks a lot better than the NeoDen4. I still seem some strang design choices based on the few reviews that I have watched. It does not use multiple fiducials for board alignment, why.... At least this can pick 12mm tall components unlike the NeoDen4 which was only 5mm.

author: jmibk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 04:50:05 pm
content: I ordered one of this QiHe (TVM925) machines directly from QiHe via alibaba and it arrived last week. The machine itself costs 4700 USD plus the feeders. It came with a kind of chinese Yamaha style feeders, they look and feel very high value.It took me around a day to get the thing up and running and it is quite fast and works great for me till now (and I hope in the future also :-) ).Service is great if you have questions, especially to their software, that came with the machine.As dave mentioned, this machine is one of the kind of open the package and run it devices.So the price isn't that far away from the price of the NeoDen.

author: bugrobotics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 05:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: jmibk on November 21, 2022, 04:50:05 pmInterested in the feeders and the seller you used on Alibaba.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:56:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2022, 12:01:17 pmThat's the best plan - consolidate components to reduce number of uniques, and then use the PnP for projects that suit it (design for that if possible) and outsource to a CM for designs that just cant work on the PnP.Once you get to know your PnP really well and can get the time from "export from ECAD -> Setup and tune on PnP ->Running a board" down to sub 10-15min, then doing partial placements for prototype designs does become a viable option, but I'd imagine you're pretty fast at hand placement DaveThough placing is quick.. getting parts out and not mixed up is the time sink.If you are not going to feel guilty about the machine sitting idle most of the time, then no need to "find ways to use it"... if you are going to look at I and play the "regret game" about money spent, then finding ways to integrate it more into your day to day stuff is worth the effort of exploring.I can get a new design from KiCAD into my N8 and placing parts on a panel (assuming no or super low feeder re-load) in less than 10 mins now, and much of that time is going up and down my stairsSeonUnexpected Maker

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:22:02 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 20, 2022, 08:08:26 pmThis is me btw.I think some people may have a skewed view of what to expect from a machine of this price point.Is it perfect? Far from it. But is it still worth it even if you have to fiddle with things? Absolutely. Even with having to tweak things and occasionally baby sit it. It's still 6x faster than hand assembling my boards. It will accurately place components on a board.And part of the run time when I don't have to babysit it, I can be doing other things.So while, it's not a 30k+ PnP and may have some issues to deal with, it's still worth it to me for what I'm using it for. When it's dialed in, it can pump out boards quite fast compared to what I was doing before by hand.So it's a decision perspective buyers need to weigh the cost vs the issues you may encounter with it

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 10:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2022, 12:08:09 pmIt takes me that long at least to start up and zero the machines! Fiducials on the printer and solder paste inspection take at least 10 minutes to setup. For full inspection on a normal panel with say a few 100 parts, bit of QFN / BGA it might take me an hour.The actual pick and place machines are quick unless i need to setup a new part. Parts with complicated shapes like connectors take maybe 15 minutes each to teach to to the vision system. QFN or BGA are a lot quicker. 90% of packages are already in the system but stuff like an FPC connector won't be. Deciding on nozzles is a confusing puzzle as I've got 3 different heads which take different types of nozzles. In the head selection screen it doesn't give you info about the nozzles and there's 100s of them across the machines.I'm not sure if any of the lower end Chinese machines have nozzle changers.

author: aholtzma
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 11:14:25 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2022, 02:27:21 amAs a counterpoint, my experience with them has been great. They generally respond within a few hours during (their) office hours.

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 11:57:14 pm
content: Quote from: aholtzma on November 21, 2022, 11:14:25 pmI can't speak to long term support, by my YY1 came with a bent stepper motor bracket and they sent a replacement bracket and motor asap for free. So in that regard it was good customer service and they've been every responsive to my emails with questions.Now in 3 years, maybe that will change with this machine if they're no longer making it for example.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 12:04:20 am
content: Quote from: aholtzma on November 21, 2022, 11:14:25 pmSo you've had on going faulty HW on your machine that they have fixed? Sent replacement boards to swap out? What machine and what HW? Or are you just saying that they have been responsive to questions?Being more specific about what they've helped you with would be a much better counterpoint to just "my experience is the opposite" ...SeonUnexpected Maker

author: aholtzma
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 02:35:21 am
content: Quote from: seon on November 22, 2022, 12:04:20 amWe had some damaged parts when we received our YY1, and they sent replacements within a week. They also sent a new controller with updated software unprompted.It is likely the differences in service depends on whether they think the problem is their fault or not.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 04:03:55 am
content: Quote from: aholtzma on November 22, 2022, 02:35:21 amOk, cool, glad to hear!

author: jmibk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 07:37:02 am
content: Quote from: bugrobotics on November 21, 2022, 05:39:53 pmThe seller was QiHe itself and everything was fluent and without any hazzle. Delivery took about 1 week.Here are some pics of a 12mm feeder (without the rail guide, I removed it with 3 screws to save space). Price was 65 dollars for one.I ordered 8mm, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm and one vibration feeder (for 5 tubes) for the machine.On the last pic you can see that I missaligned the plastic strip cover - thats my fault.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 01:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: seon on November 22, 2022, 12:04:20 amI heard that Neoden's support in US is quite good. But I don't have any personal experience with it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 11:17:40 pm
content: Juhu from LitePlace got back to me. Yes my kit hardware is very old and would need an upgrade to bring it up to modern standards, which he has kindly offered to do.Seems like people overwhelmingly want me to assemble this thing!

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:49:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2022, 11:17:40 pmOf course they do - they want drama and action! Nevermind that the end result will be barely useable for it's intended purpose - that's not their problem. I mean, since your only expense will be the time you have to put into it to assemble and get it to do something beyond a couple of test-picks, and if that's something you are OK with & want to do - why not? I know I would - just because I like assembling things and seeing them work, even if their utility is questionable. About a year ago I bought an original Prusa i3 printer kit, which took me like 4 evenings to assemble - but seeing it coming alive was definitely worth the trouble!

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:48:35 am
content: Quote from: asmi on November 22, 2022, 01:06:44 pmJust for clarification - Neoden US is not actually Neoden. They are their own company and just resell Neoden equipment as the US distributor. It's an important distinction.That said, yes I have also heard they look after their customers.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 07:13:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2022, 11:17:40 pmWell, you know, you can do this and _also_ get a YY1 to play with. It's not going to break the bank. And it might be even more enjoyable to watch you squirm over getting the YY1 to work

author: FullyArticulate
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 06:35:27 pm
content: tl;dr -- Charmhigh CHMT48VB works great for me for years. For prototype runs, it (or the YY1) could be great for you.Everyone needs something different from their P&P system and I think your mileage varies entirely based upon what you need to accomplish. Seon, for example, needs to produce thousands of boards as hands off as possible. That's completely different from my (and maybe your) use case.I want to rapidly create a new design, get a PCB from Allpcb or jlcpcb, pick and place it, and be ready to produce 20-50 if it's a good design. I've outsourced this in the past, and it takes roughly 8 weeks to outsource fab + assy. If I outsource fab and do assy myself, I can go from idea to finished board in 3 weeks. That's ahugedifference to me. If my client is happy, I can make up to 50. If they're REALLY happy, then I'll outsource everything. My typical design has about 150 placements on the bottom and 80 placements on the top (the majority 0402).I've had a really good experience with my CHMT48VB for the last 2 years. Charmhigh has been super responsive with various issues that have come up. It mostly just works. The biggest problems I've had thusfar are:1) I've needed to change the system X,Y compensation because everything was consistently and slightly off. Charmhigh took my pictures and sent back a video showing how to do the compensation in just a few hours.2) The Z clearance isn't huge. I have a few tall parts that will run into tall parts already placed on the board. That sucks when an explosion of parts comes off the board after having been placed.3) The DPV (pick & place file) is not well documented, so I've spent quite a bit of time hacking things until they work (e.g. if you have your own fiducials, they have to be listed in the file as un-placed components).I wish there were additional features in their software. For example, I wish you could mark a feeder as "no advance" so it would pick the one that I've already exposed rather than dragging. I also wish you had more (or an unlimited) number of "anywhere" cut tape feeders. They currently have a limit of 9.My biggest pain point right now is a lack of ability to swap reels (like with a standalone feeder). I make specialty RF boards which sometimes need lots of specialty components (e.g. specific resistor values for filters). When I switch to making a different board, it can take a day or two to unweave each reel I no longer need from the built-in feeders, and reweave the new reels.I looked at the cheapest machines that use feeders (CHM 550/560, maybe Neoden S1). It occurred to me it might just be cheaper to buy a second CHMT48VB or possibly a YY1. The YY1 seems to have a feature where you can swap out an entire bank of reels in one shot--that'd work for me great.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 10:40:52 am
content: Just put in an offer on a local TVM920 with 45 feeders and the listing was just pulled. Should have pressed the Buy it Now button instead

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 09:19:19 pm
content: Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.The panelization doesn't work. The board origin alignment does not work. There are problems in the coordinations, it always misses some steps I believe.I will try to make a measurement with a meter.It could have been a good device but, so much limited.I asked NeoDen to make it open source, then we can contribute to solve the bugs. I also ask about the problems but they don't try to solve issues.Regards,Alp Electronix

author: aholtzma
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 10:38:26 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on November 26, 2022, 09:19:19 pmWhen did you buy it? The initial firmware had lots of problems. Since installing new boards/firmware it has fixed almost all of our problems.Though we are still arguing with them over whether missing a nozzle change when skipping a component is an actual bug.

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 12:41:20 am
content: Quote from: aholtzma on November 26, 2022, 10:38:26 pmive had very little issues with mine, but i think if we share what software version we're on we can get a better feeling if these are machine specific issues or software issues.mine is on software version 2022.007you can see what version your on if you go to the parameter page at the bottom before you put in the password.

author: FullyArticulate
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 07:16:46 am
content: Can any of the YY1 owners confirm the idea of swapping out a "magazine" (in the nomenclature of their manual) of feeders? It looks like the machine has 4 magazines, each with about 12 8mm feeders. Is it possible to just pull out an entire magazine and put in a new one, pre-loaded with parts?If I could buy a few extra magazines (i.e. have a magazine per unique board or something) and swap them in and out easily, that'd be a killer app for me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 08:59:02 am
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on November 26, 2022, 09:19:19 pmI'm not seeing what else there is in the same price bracket?I just missed out on a used machine wiht 45 Yamaha feeders

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:43:56 am
content: Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on November 27, 2022, 12:41:20 amHi. Thanks. I have 2022.004. Obviously it is older than yours. I will check with them. However they previously said that update is not possible.

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:46:47 am
content: Quote from: aholtzma on November 26, 2022, 10:38:26 pmI agree on that actually. I was trying to setup the nozzle back to their initial setup after the first change, I couldnt do it. I was thinking to have a component which I can skip and setup the nozzle changer. However it didnt work. Alternatively, we should be able set the nozzle changer 'After' a component not only before a component.I believe as YY1 owners, we can create a discord group to investigate or solve the problems on the machine. We might even have upgrades possibly.CanerAlp Electronix

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:51:52 am
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on November 27, 2022, 11:46:47 amWe have an HWGC Discord. I was thinking about opening it up to multiple China PnP machine suppliers so we can all share information along with the Wiki site I run as well.https://discord.gg/xN8HmN9Teahttps://hwgc.jogara.co.uk/We share a lot of components, feeders and tools so might be worth combining efforts.

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:57:43 am
content: Quote from: Jackster on November 27, 2022, 11:51:52 amThe discord link has expired I guess. Can you renew it?

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 12:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on November 27, 2022, 11:57:43 amhttps://discord.gg/p47Ak28EsA

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 07:31:08 pm
content: Quote from: FullyArticulate on November 27, 2022, 07:16:46 amthis machine doesnt have magazines in the traditional sense. it has 3D printed tape guides that the head picks from. you can swap them out, you'd have to re-setup the feeder positions in the software. so its not a simple swap and go type situation. and the tape guide blocks cant really hold pre-loaded tape.

author: happicow
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:21:57 pm
content: Hello,I have ordered a YY1, should be here later this week. I was sold on:The price ($3400 USD delivered to Canada)The somewhat compact sizeBulk component pickup with visionThe simple looking interfaceI am not sure if it has been mentioned, but I did get some pricing for a "firmware" upgrade:Updating the user interface firmware requires replacing the screen: $50 USDUpdating the PnP firmware requires replacing the main board: $150 USDI feel those are reasonable prices to help cover the costs of further development and support of the machine. PnP machines are not a mass-produced consumer product that can easily cover the costs of software development. I do however feel the method of replacing hardware to upgrade firmware is quite wasteful.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: happicow on November 27, 2022, 09:21:57 pmThey're not going to be making much on those if they have to supply whole new boards. There is simply no excuse for such piss-poor design.

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 27, 2022, 09:43:05 pmYeah, its not reasonable. Its downright stupid. It would have been far better to simply design in some sort of method for user-installable updates like everyone else. If they want to charge for those updates, so be it, but anything they'd reasonably charge would still have more margin and less waste than requiring board swaps.Its going to be impossible for the firmware to be perfect and bug-free at launch with anything of this complexity. Updates are going to be a fact of life, at least for the first year or so that the product is on the market.

author: up8051
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: happicow on November 27, 2022, 09:21:57 pm

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:19:10 pm
content: Quote from: happicow on November 27, 2022, 09:21:57 pmThe screen is an HMI module. It is from DWIN. It is updated with an sd card. It has its slot inside the module. I opened and saw it. So why would they charge for the HMI update since it is very simple?

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: dkonigs on November 27, 2022, 09:51:06 pmSo everytime there is an update, we need to pay 200$.😅 Then they would release a version for each bug. A nice business idea but it won't work.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:37:56 pm
content: At least it means there will be some old boards floating around to reverse-engineer and figure out how to extarct the code from ...

author: happicow
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:09:35 pm
content: QuoteIt is entirely possible that this was done as a way to protect their software from being extracted and reverse engineered. Many MCUs have the ability to blow the debugging fuses and/or restrict access to certain memory regions.The other thing it could be is that they did not want to provide a bootloader or other programming interface for customers. Developing those takes some amount of time.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 01:10:53 am
content: Very likely a giant STM32 is residing inside. And these STM32 has a factory bootloader inside. Not sure why they aren't doing that, it saves customer's time and money. If you have 10 revision updates, you already paid $1500 excluding the shipping fee.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 04:09:54 am
content: Quote from: happicow on November 27, 2022, 09:21:57 pmThat is 100% a misguided attempt at IP protection.And a total waste of time as anyone has access to the source for OpenPNP which is... you know... open

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 08:50:59 am
content: Can anyone post some internal pics ?

author: drgerber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 09:48:09 am
content: Cannot fully understand the problem with missing in-field software updates.Our YY1 works really well for what it is. It is incredible that this thing even exists for that price.It's not meant for serial production but really good for prototype runs of complex boards.Setup time is short and the bulk + strip feeders work well too.You have to sit in front of it and babysit a little here and there. Completely acceptable for that use case.When buying a used machine for a similar price you will also not get any kind of updates (not even to mention spare parts)...

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 10:13:11 am
content: Neoden has shipped me new control board and hmi.Caner,Alp Electronix

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 01:20:59 am
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on November 28, 2022, 10:13:11 amThat's good news! Hopefully that solves your issues.Glad they are supporting the product after the sale.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 03:45:52 am
content: I know this is brand off-topic, but this thead is hot for advice right now.Does anyone know anything about a Madell PX3700 ?

author: up8051
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 08:29:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2022, 03:45:52 amOld thread but opinions about Madell not very positivehttps://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=13273

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 09:09:22 am
content: For reference, I found this article about selecting a machine:https://www.rocketscream.com/blog/2020/07/04/picking-the-right-or-wrong-pick-and-place-machine/

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 09:12:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2022, 09:09:22 amI wrote that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 10:45:25 am
content: FYI, I started a new thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/choosing-a-desktop-pick-and-place-machine/

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 02:05:24 am
content: Quote from: seon on November 21, 2022, 04:50:50 amI have read disparaging comments about HR on here more than once and I'm not sure why. All of my dealings with them have been very good and Resurface provides a valuable service of hooking people up with used machines (often machines they initially installed and have serviced) at good prices. You really need to be on the mailing list to be able to grab opportunities when they become available though as the website listings are largely out of date.

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 11:17:58 am
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on November 28, 2022, 10:13:11 amHello @alpelectronics ,how much did they charge for the updated parts?

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 02:43:18 pm
content: Quote from: MakeIt on November 30, 2022, 11:17:58 amThere is no charge. The bottom of the screen was not working. Also there were so many bugs. Therefore, they decided to replace them.So far, it is a good support. I think they keep an eye on this forum for customers.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 05:59:10 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on November 30, 2022, 02:43:18 pmIf they do, they should note, that I removed the Y11 from my list instantly after I heard, that the firmware cannot be upgraded (only by replacing boards). I am not willing to be a beta tester of such a new device and have to pay for bug removals. At least, they should set up a free-of-charge local board upgrade service in several areas of the world including a pre-exchange (sending their boards first and then receive the old board back during a few days).

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 07:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: Pinkus on November 30, 2022, 05:59:10 pmI don't understand either. In today's technology everything has a programmable system no matter how complex it is.Eventually, they need to load the fw in the production. So I assume loading a fw is possible. It might be a marketing strategy.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 08:07:04 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on November 30, 2022, 07:41:38 pmI think it's more likely that they don't have programmers who are capable of doing this stuff properly.Or possibly all the firmware is bought in from a subcontractor that doesn't trust Neoden to report numbers honestly

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 05:39:31 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 28, 2022, 08:50:59 amCome to discord.

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 07:11:14 pm
content: I got the new controller and interface module. The controller has 2022.09 version. However the machine drifts a lot after couple of movements. The drift increases as the head moves. I don't know if the steppers miss some steps or the FW has some problems. I don't think it is mechanical issue, because at startup it comes to the point I set.The issue seems accumulative. So it keeps increasing more and more.The controller board uses an STM32F407. Nothing fancy. And it has swd pins with an unpopulated header.We can all make a suggestion to NeoDen to make this machine open source. Then it would be perfected with the help of the community. I still believe that the mechanics is very good.Caner,Alp Electronix

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 07:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on December 01, 2022, 07:11:14 pmzero chance of that happenning

author: drgerber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 09:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on December 01, 2022, 07:11:14 pmThe drift appears just after some manual head movements or were feeder pick-ups involved?Seen this once when a reel was blocked and the head tried to advance the tape. Few steps were missed and everything was slightly off afterwards.Open loop system... Good again after homing.

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 10:15:37 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on December 01, 2022, 07:11:14 pmTime to connect a debug probe to those pads, and see if you can dump the firmware?Makes me wonder if the only reason the firmware isn't upgradable, is because they didn't bother adding some connectors? (of course that MCU could also have built-in USB DFU support, if the necessary connector and boot selector button was added)Of course even with these limitations, you'd think that "send the board back for an update at the factory" would be a simple procedure.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 11:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: dkonigs on December 01, 2022, 10:15:37 pmUntil it hits China's incoming customs.Getting electronic stuff back into China can be a real problem.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 12:39:31 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 01, 2022, 11:27:29 pmIts not just electronics. They have really clumsy systems at their borders. In the 90s we sent some furniture from HK to China to get it refinished. Everything went smoothly. We tried again in about 2012 and the people who sorted it out for us in the 90s had given up that business. Things like the endangered species controls on various woods had not been sensibly allowed for at the border, and if we sent the furniture in for refinishing, it could never come back out.

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 08:54:42 am
content: Quote from: drgerber on December 01, 2022, 09:41:46 pmWell, that happened as well. The nozzle gets stuck sometimes and it warns in the interface. But If I think, the drift also occurs in Y direction. if it was only in X direction, I could understand that it is the feeder picking.

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 08:57:21 am
content: Quote from: dkonigs on December 01, 2022, 10:15:37 pmI will do that probably but I will not hack the device. The board is very simple. It would be possible to design a custom board with advanced stuff and closed-loop system for X and Y axes. Then this device would be really accurate.

author: drgerber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 10:24:06 am
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on December 02, 2022, 08:54:42 amAh, okay. Then the feeders might not explain it if it goes in both directions.BTW mine is running on 2022.006 with no issues.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 06:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on December 02, 2022, 08:57:21 amThis device was obviously designed to a price point. It's always possible to make device better by adding more stuff, but the price tend to get out of control really fast.

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 09:30:26 pm
content: Finally I assembled a full panel. It is better now with the new controller. I also did minor adjustments for better accuracy. I would say the biggest problem in this machine is the feeders.But I'm happier now. Thanks to NeoDen for their support.Caner,Alp Electronix

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 10:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: alpelectronics on December 03, 2022, 09:30:26 pmIf there weren't many reports of feeder problems, I'd be getting the YY1. They really need to solve this. And I would have expected they would be able to get it right as they have been around a decent amount of time now.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 01:01:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 03, 2022, 10:09:34 pmFinally had the time to get ours fully set up last week (annual inventory was a giant mess and then had a million other things to do...)The only persistent feeder issue I've been having is shallow 8mm plastic tape (a bunch of 1206 capacitors). Took a few goes, but I managed to sort them out by moving them from the left side of the machine to the right, and putting them close to the motor. I think where I had them to start with at the front didn't put the right pressure between the wheels, so it would pull the tape forward whenever the motor ran. Seems to be solved now, but I definitely wasted a bunch of caps trying to figure it out.Other than that, the only issues I've had is needing to turn the wheels by hand to break the friction if the machine has been left a few days, and I've had a minor issue picking from cut tape, but I think that's the fault of my custom holder being too tight and pinching one of the tapes and binding the test point loop in it, and another was an 0201 sized diode that I had trouble taking out with a razor blade after the machine failed on it over and over..I remember seeing some 3d printed designs that used a gear system triggered by the head to advance tape instead of the head itself, I wonder if a similar design could be made to use the needle drop or dragging motion with a simple clockwork to advance without having the head make contact with the tape...

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2022, 04:10:07 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on November 30, 2022, 02:05:24 amI wasn't saying anything bad about Resurface or HR - sorry if it came across that way! I was just stating that prices for new machines, and prices most local folks are after for their used machines are exorbitant compared to what you can buy used gear for OS. I'm sure HR and Resurface are awesome folks and great to work with.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 07:05:52 pm
content: Has anyone with the YY1 been able to get into the "System Parameters" screen? A password is required and it's not accepting whatever I type in what the manual suggested (2022) (?) I just sent a query to Neoden, but timezones, etc...So I'm finally trying to get the YY1 up and running, and of course the feeder tape-advance throws the 0603 resistors out of the paper tape (I'm starting with a single sacrificial reel of resistors in feeder #1). The "Pick Test" cleanly advances the tape and picks the component, but when trying to actually run the mounting process the tape advance pin is being dragged too rapidly (I guess) and it isn't returning to the proper location for the next advance. I have the "Mount Speed" set for 25%, but that doesn't affect the needle drag speed (I realize that the needle drop speed is not controllable, but at the moment this isn't the problem).So I was hoping that something in the System Parameters would fix this, and I need a working password. And please don't tell me how stupid I am for buying this, or Neoden is for feeder design or software update issues. That was already part of my decision process -- this is my hobby and I am prepared to deal with all that.Thanks,Paul

author: Selectech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 08:51:51 pm
content: I have a YY1 and 2022 worked on mine.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 10:03:43 pm
content: I must have been doing it wrong.The password 2022 works, and after doing the Camera, Head and Needle calibrations, and setting the needle speed to 25% the YY1 is now cleanly picking and placing. I can probably increase the speeds from 25%, and I need to load in the reels that I'm going to be actually using, so I'm sure there's more excitement to come. But even if I can only place the 0603 parts and have to hand-place the semiconductors (and I doubt if things will be that bad) this is still a big help. I hand-edited my KiCad placement file into the Neoden format, and while that was easy enough I'm still going to automate that conversion.This quite cheered me up!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 07:15:15 am
content: I'm now trying to set up a board using the KiCad .pos file. I've got it massaged and merged with the YY1 .csv file, and that all seems OK. My feeders are loaded and calibrated, and the machine camera, head, needle are also calibrated.Component positioning near (0,0) looks good, but the component placement gets worse as 'X' gets larger. 'Y' is probably off as well, but 'X' is quite noticeable, about 0.5mm error once 'X' gets to 7cm. How do I calibrate the positioning? I have tried setting a fiducial and a component location as the manual says, but I can't see that this helps. I also can't see *how* it could help, other than perhaps correcting for an offset. Does the YY1 even know where the fiducial and component are supposed to be? At what point during the placement process does the YY1 look for this component and the fiducial?Perhaps I don't need to understand how it works, but what is the proper method for using the fiducial and component position? And for correcting any scaling errors?No doubt I could manually adjust the position of each part, but that's a lot of work and destroys my design process integrity. And I shouldn't have to do that anyway.Thanks!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 08:44:07 pm
content: Progress: I now see (more or less) what the YY1 is doing with the "Edit Fiducial" steps. The component is the first one in my pick-list, and I guess me setting this is a board XY position calibration. The fiducial is something that the YY1 looks for every time I start the placement, and is probably used as an automatic XY calibration to compensate for next-board alignment.I've now placed a test-board (double-sided tape) with about 100 0603 resistors/capacitors, a few LEDS, some transient diodes, and a regulator in a SOT-223 package. It's looking pretty good.

author: ycui@eml.cc
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 05:10:53 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 19, 2022, 10:33:43 pmYou will be surprised. To fully correct all 2D linear space distortion, that includes X, Y scaling, rotation, and skew, takes multiple PhD to get correct. I am talking from a semiconductor equipment vendor. Certain big name semiconductor vendor cannot correct 2D distortion in their multi-tens of millions worth reticel inspection machine.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 12:54:35 pm
content: Quote from: ycui@eml.cc on January 31, 2023, 05:10:53 amIt takes one reasonably smart person with the right character. Someone who doesn't hand wave away the details like most people do, and really gets into those details. After that person has got it working beautifully, watch out for the hand wavers rotting the software during maintenance.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 03:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 31, 2023, 12:54:35 pmWithout going looking, I think its a safe bet that there are perfectly good libraries that can handle rotation calculation and can be applied here if you didn't want to code it yourself. I'd also wager, unless they really screwed it up, this core piece of code barely changes, software updates will typically target UI glitches or improvements and head travel optimization. Equally I think there's a perfectly good argument that for a cheap pick and place machine with limited repeatable accuracy, assuming that the PCB is aligned flat against a fixed rail is a perfectly good expectation. This means one fiducial to locate the board, works, even tho' that may seem naff and not "as good" as others.For those other 2+ fiducial machines, how many of them are using two for anything other than PCB rotation? More expensive machines have thermal compensation, linear encoders and high end motor control, they can use this sexy maths but without the hardware support it's wasted effort.The problems with the YY1 seem to be the same issues from every Chinese manufacturer, there is no iterative improvement on software they have already made, or even hardware. They start over, every time they make a new model, keeping some old mistakes, making new ones and duplicating tonnes of effort. It's only USP is a nozzle changer and while that is a good thing, it's very late to the party and would have been better fitted to an established machine in their lineup.

author: nimish
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 09:30:24 pm
content: Quote from: ycui@eml.cc on January 31, 2023, 05:10:53 amLens distortion correction at the level of pick and place machine is a solved problem. nVidia has a good one in their VPI. For semiconductor? Yeah I can see why attempting to correct nanometer scale aberrations is hard, but that's not the precision a desktop PnP machine needs.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 10:57:56 pm
content: Yeah, I'm going to have to say to anyone thinking about purchasing one of these to make a hard pass. I've had mine for months but due to a surgery, I've not really had a chance to use it much other than a few boards. Having started to make more than a couple boards at a time, it seems like the unit is really skipping steps and had no way of knowing where it is in space until it is power cycled. Also the cover tape mechanism is horrendous. As mentioned - if the unit sits for a few days, things stick. I'm probably going to swap out all 8mm cover tape 'rubbers' for the weaker ones as I can't see a downside to this.I've been in contact with the manufacturer and it seems they don't understand the issue. I've explained how I can program locations and cycle back to those locations and they will now be off. I also still fail to understand how one fiducial alignment can compensate for board edge routing errors. Each board I do come out with the parts either slightly off or horrendously off. Note that I have decades of experience with Mydata pick and place machines and like to think that I have a basic understanding of how these machines should work.Sitting beside this unit I have a TVM802B that just works. Doesn't pull too hard on the cover tape, doesn't use steppers for positioning and is much more consistent. The programming interface is somewhat clunky but not any worse than the YY1. It just isn't a great looking machine and nothing I would want to show off to a customer. I do have two Essemtec CSM7000 machines but they don't handle 0402 parts at all and 0603 are difficult. And the user interface is actually wose than the Chinese models as hard as that may be to believe.I've been catching up on this thread and hope that perhaps a new board with updated firmware will help some but I still am not sure how we get around one fiducial for alignment. This seems like something they could fix in firmware but again, the manufacturer doesn't seem to think it an issue.If anyone has thoughts or suggestions on how to build any faith in this machine I am all ears. I'll keep going back through this thread though but wanted to come here to vent.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 04:02:20 pm
content: So, after reading the thread, it seems that there are two types of people who bought this machine.1. Those who intend to use it for medium-to-high volume production runs. These are the types who thought they are getting a 30K$ machine for $3K, and are pissed off that it didn't quite turned out to be the case.2. Those who bought it for a prototype/low volume production runs. These are generally happy with machine, despite it having some shortcomings and some odd design decisions.

author: nimish
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 07:04:57 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on February 13, 2023, 04:02:20 pmSolid, these are very different use cases. I need/want a prototyping machine so having quirks is acceptable. For 3k though, you would hope they had some QC.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 09:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: nimish on February 13, 2023, 07:04:57 pmYou would also hope that things would generally evolve as they release new models like this. But basic stuff like not being to peel the tape, or having two fiducial support seems like basic stuff they shuld have nailed years ago. NeoDen isn't exactly a new kid on the block.I think everyone would be happy with slow and not very flexible for the price, but you kinda still expect decent reliability.

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 02:59:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2023, 09:40:47 pmI'm following this thread and occasionally chipping in.I have a Neoden 3V advanced that has been pretty good over the last few years. Support from Neoden has also been good. They have sent parts freely and also sold me the parts to add a 24mm feeder lane to the back rack. (for placing 20 pin SOICs)It seems like the YY1 has more modern software and a few additional features, but has some cost cutting measures. Overall it is cheaper by a fair bit, especially for that many feeders, so it still might be a good choice. The 3V in comparison seems older, and a bit boring, but very solid.Bulk parts picking would be a nice upgrade, if it works well. I throw out a lot of parts like everybody else. Passives aren't worth the time, but some SOT23 chips would be nice to reuse once they fall out of the tape, or if I need so few that loading a feeder seems tedious. With the 3V I cheat a bit though by putting loose chips back in the tape and pulling it back a few slots. This works well enough, but I only seem motivated when the parts start to cost 50 cents or more each.Nozzle changing would be nice, if it works well. Since I usually require one small and one large nozzle, my machine very rarely uses both nozzles at once. So it will go get a part with the small or big nozzle, take a picture, place it, then do another one. Rather than getting a part with one nozzle, another with the second nozzle, taking both pictures, then placing both components, which overall is faster.With the nozzle changer, I suspect you can place a lot of passives with two smaller nozzles, then switch to a large one for the few chips at the end one at a time?The 3V peelers seem to work great. Each peeler is an individual motor. The Neoden web site claims the new ones are an improvement over the 3V but maybe not so sure...Two fiducials seems like a no-brainer, although I usually butt the top edge of the board up against the immovable rail on the bed. So the amount of rotation/skew that could sneak into the process might be less than what matters when placing 0402 or larger. My 3V can use multiple fiducials but if the board is always squared well the others might add little actual value.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 09:16:14 am
content: I think the main frustration with the cheap machines is that a lot of the pain is not due to the low build cost but to poor design and poor software, which could have been done much better without increasing the cost.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 09:26:20 am
content: Good software isn't cheap. If it was, there would be more of it. Good software developers don't work on idiot pay.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 03:25:45 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on February 14, 2023, 09:26:20 amWell, is certainly isn't when it can only be amortised over a small number of units.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 12:21:37 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 14, 2023, 09:16:14 amYes, I would have expected refinements of new products like this from a company that's been doing PnP machine for quite a long time now.Even if the product isn't as fast or feature equiped (extra hardware costs money), you at least expect refinement in terms of reliability and usability.When I hear reports of basic stuff like tapes jamming etc that's just an automatic "nope, I don't want to have to dick around with that".

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 01:37:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2023, 09:40:47 pmYes, for something like this, slow is perfectly fine. But if you spend so much time having to muck around with the machine, work around its shortcomings, and wasting components due to it constantly screwing up... Suddenly its not worth bothering with anymore.Striking a balance between "I'll just assemble it by hand" and "I'll just outsource it to someone with a real machine" kinda demands a level of fuss that's below what this machine seems to have.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 02:41:23 am
content: Quote from: dkonigs on February 15, 2023, 01:37:22 amThe sole purpose of a PnP machine is to automate the task of placing components. Regardless of how good a PnP machine you have, there is a fixed setup time which is roughly similar for all classes of machines (pre-loaded feeders aside), the advantage only comes in reliability where you can press go and walk away.The more you have to massage the machine the more of a time waste it becomes, to the point of uselessness eventually.A slow 100% reliable machine will beat a super fast expensive machine that has constant issues, every time.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 12:53:36 pm
content: If you need a machine that just works then Suba have a nice used Juki for $20k with very low hours. It's an older machine (not as old as my machines) but actually works. If you want something that's good for YouTube content improving, fixing and repairing it then the Chinese ones are probably a better choice.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 01:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2023, 02:41:23 amThe bold part is an important distinction between machines designed for high-volume production, and those designed for prototyping. The latter compromise on feeders, and are designed to be loaded with reels once and never touched again (unless a reel runs out), with parts distinct for a specific design delivered via ad-hoc feeding like loose parts, strip holders, etc.Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2023, 02:41:23 amThe problem is - it's not gonna be a 3K$ machine, but more like 30K$ one. That's the way this market seems to work. And no machine is ever 100% reliable, even super-expensive ones fail every once in a while.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 01:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on February 15, 2023, 12:53:36 pmYou probably forgot to mention that is weighs like a car and has a size similar to that of a car, while here we're talking aboutdesktopmachine. Desk-top, not garage-floor-top.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 02:12:21 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on February 15, 2023, 01:39:03 pmYep, I'm still happy with our machine, even with the teething problems. We have very low production volume (30-60 boards a year) of a single product, and we were spending over 100 CAD per board to have them assembled (and management specifically forbids outsourcing assembly out of the country). No way I could get management to approve a 20k used system (plus whatever it would cost to deliver) that would take up even more of the floorspace we don't have.The biggest problem we're running into right now is that our old version of Mentor PADS didn't put solder mask in 0.2mm pad gaps, so we keep getting bridges on a bunch of our components, and I'd never noticed before because the assembly shop never complained.Next step is a complete redesign, for easier to acquire parts, better layouts, better solder mask, and to share as many components as possible with a second product I'm working on.This is not the machine for someone doing 10k panels a year, or multiple product lines that can't all fit in one machine.I may try to come up with a design of some kind of lock that keeps the tape in place when not being advanced by the pin, or some kind of mechanism that is triggered by the pin, but always advances exactly the right spacing.

author: tboicey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 03:08:04 pm
content: As a random datapoint, I make about 1000/boards a year on my Neoden 3V without trying too hard. Some of my higher volume stuff I order fully assembled from AllPCB, but the stuff that we need 100 or so of here and there are done on the Neoden. It's just too much work to deal with a third party for small volumes and especially with evolving products.The most I ever recall doing in one session is probably around 75 boards. That board had a somewhat low component count but that's most of a day just feeding the machines.I just wanted to throw that out there because I'm seeing the phrase "prototyping or high volume" and I suspect I'm really somewhere in between.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 04:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: newto on February 15, 2023, 02:12:21 pmI have about $7500 US invested in a Quad/Samsung machine from an auction. That includes shipping, feeders, repair parts, etc.As for bridges, good solder paste is key, we use GC10, which is totally fantastic! Also, reducing stencil aperture size is very important. The smaller the lead pitch, the more you have to shrink the apertures. I do down to 0.5mm pitch FPGAs. Finally, accruate alignment of the stencil and part placement is required to eliminate bridges.Jon

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 05:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on February 15, 2023, 04:18:38 pmThere were probably more cost efficient ways of getting a pick and place, but my team is 5 people including me, and only two of us are actually hardware/assembly related, and neither of us has experience troubleshooting a PnP, so I wanted something where I wouldn't need to worry about something complex breaking.Solder wise, we're using Chip Quik SAC305, which looks like a similar product, but I'll try to get the GC10 for the next batch (last time I looked, it was hard to get in Canada, but that may have changed. I've also modified the design files to make a version with smaller apertures on the troublesome parts, I just haven't gotten around to ordering a new stencil. Almost certainly will help though; for whatever reason, two of the components are the same package, but one has much smaller pads on the footprint, and we haven't that part bridge a single time, while the larger footprint component bridges almost every time.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 11:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: newto on February 15, 2023, 05:50:43 pmMy first P&P came out of a running shop that was upgrading. It ran with only two SMALL issues for 13 years. If I had KNOWN what level of disaster the newer machine would be, I would not have bought it! It had apparently sat in unconditioned space in Austin, TX for over 6 years, and had been hacked on by monkeys, and I'm giving my simian cousins a bad name there! When I got it delivered, it ran for 3 days, and then the servo system would not come out of E-stop anymore. I spent WAY too long trying to scientifically diagnose the fault before buying a replacement board. Then, I found out a motor had been replaced with the wrong type, and that in the process a ball spline had lost all the balls. Then, a number of boards started failing on it, requiring expensive replacements. Fortunately, this was a very popular model in the far East, so there are lots of brokers with affordable spare parts. No component I have replaced has failed again so far! So, if the machine had been properly stored and not tinkered with by idiots, I would have likely spent about $4000 to get it moved and running - mostly just feeders.Jon

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 12:33:08 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on February 15, 2023, 12:53:36 pmWhen the YY1 came out I was thing that it would make great to see what type fo small scale manufacturing is possible with a low cost machine (say sub $5k). I don't want to have to be doing videos (and spending time) dicking around troubleshooting the thing. I wanted "here's a low cost machine, let's make some boards and see what the limitations are". Not a 10 part series on how I finally got it to work reliably.Maybe that would be popular, I don't know, but it's not something that interests me.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 06:13:26 am
content: I used to have a push feeder with integrated feeder designed in China sold by German guy for about $4K excluding an external PC. I came from manual picking by hand for years and was churning out thousands of boards just with a tweezer and hacked toaster oven. I thought this $4K machine would scale up my speed but I was dead wrong. I wasted more time trying to get the machine to work and was pulling my hair out until I decided I have to get rid of the machine. A gentlemen bought it from me and he eventually got fed up of it too. Bought myself an $8K machine with some of that cost goes into the removable Yamaha feeders and shipping fee and never look back. I don't have to play with all these silly feeder issues or funny software implementation. I guess if you have a little bit more extra than the $5K, skip these smaller desktop machine as you might eventually out grown the capacity, or you get something needing too much of baby sitting, or it is just not working reliable enough to replace your years of lightning speed of manual hand placing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 06:41:32 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on February 16, 2023, 06:13:26 amThat's the thing, I'm looking for the (inevitable?) "game changer" PnP machine that is affordable, reliable, small, and realtively capable. I thought the YY1 was it, but many reports say otherwise.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 09:45:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 16, 2023, 06:41:32 amIMO The Opulo LumenPnP is worth keeping an eye on - I'm sure it's going to take time to get it right, they're only on their first iteration of feeders, but having spoken at length to the people behind it, I think it has a good chance of becoming a useful machine.They actually use it in-house to assemble their own products, which is where a lot of companies like Neoden fall down, without using a machine day-to-day, you have little chance of finding all the issues that real users will face.Anothr issue with larger companies is they don't want a low-end machine to compete with their higher-end products.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 10:08:11 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 16, 2023, 09:45:31 amAgreed, but until it's available a commercial product you can just buy and use, it doesn't fit the criteria of the type of video series I wanted to do.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 10:42:18 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 16, 2023, 09:45:31 amHave the Opulo people used other mainstream brands? I think it's handy to know what level of annoyance is "normal". With a lot of the hobby gear in shocked they often haven't looked at any other gear and are starting from scratch. It seems really common in cnc routers that people haven't worked somewhere with a mainstream machine or done a short course or anything on one. I got into a free government sponsored machining course for CNC stuff but it was run through a local maker space and they had a really basic Roland desktop mill as the educational machine... I'm sure a tafe would have at least had a manual machine as well and some experience.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 02:05:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 16, 2023, 06:41:32 amWhat is your definition for affordable defined in US$ ?What is your definition of reliable in #failed placeings/performed placings ?As many have pointed out the main challenging issues are feeders and software.The basis for a PnP machine is no rocket science any electronics engineer can build the powercabinet with powersupplies motor drivers cabling etc.The only challenge is alignment which for a PnP machine that gets no load to endure can be post calibrated if needed.So I wonder why there are not more PnP kits from Ali with an interface to OpenPNP ?Even you Dave step a bit out your electronics domain into the mechatronics domain and a new world of opportunities opens up for you, or do you not think that people would like to watch a 20 episode DIY build of a pnp machine ?

author: MakeIt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 02:56:51 pm
content: The problem of the feeders is also the problem when using openpnp.The feeders will be a big part of the price when you want a good functioning system.I tried it with a 3D printer and some strips. What I see when having this setup is that the tape can shift a bit when it is hit too hard with the nozzle.this is part of the problem. The system needs to be able to pick up without shifting the tape. This means I need to go back to the drawing board.Talking to a guy in Germany on the YY1 subject, he found this same problem with the YY1. He told me, he had "bent" the pin after doing some trials.I am not sure if it comes from the tape or if he hit something else.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 05:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 16, 2023, 09:45:31 amThose things look interesting from their web site. Have you seen one working, know anything about its accuracy, etc.?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 05:43:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 16, 2023, 10:08:11 amThey claim the new one (V3) needs only very quick and simple assembly, and you are up an running. They say minutes rather than hours or days, but it takes more than minutes to read the instructions for most things, so I assume that is an exaggeration. Still, it might be worth a look.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 08:42:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 16, 2023, 05:43:10 pmYes, and powered feeders coming this quarter but not available just yet. It's getting there.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 11:19:25 pm
content: I have seen a prototype Opulo feeder in person, though not actually running. Bit hazy on the details now but recall it had some good & bad points, and will definitely need at least another couple of iterations, and they understand that.I did give them some input on the sort of things they need to test for, particularly as many different tape types as they can - reliable peel-off.

author: sinewave
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2023, 03:51:06 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 16, 2023, 05:43:10 pmI had the YY1 assembling in probably 30 or so minutes, only had to read the manual to figure out the password for the parameters display as calibration was needed. The YY1 is your best choice for low-volume production, and I'm not a NeoDen shill, though I have not tried any other cheap PnPs.

author: bugrobotics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:24:38 pm
content: Took the plunge and ordered one. I'll document and update with my experience.

author: level6
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 05:18:39 am
content: I've had mine for a week now and I'm quite satisfied with the purchase. Looking forward to your impressions.

author: itsrealfast
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 02:00:34 am
content: I'm thinking of buying one. Please let me know your thoughts. Also I dont mind buying a used one if anybody upgradedThanks

author: Guus
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 02:19:08 pm
content: I just open a new Discussion;DreamPNP, based on YY1?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/dreampnp/

author: BackFire
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 12:35:49 pm
content: Hi all,I'm eager to see peoples experiences with this machine, as I'm hoping to be able to buy one later this year.I've been obsessed with PnP's my whole life, and I'm frankly impressed with what Neoden can deliver for the price. That said, I have hands-on experience with a Neoden 4, and am aware that the machine has its 'quirks' to say the least. I'm hoping that Neoden continue to tweak this offering and providing at least some support to those that need it.I'm hopeful this will be a perfect machine for R&D, my designs can typically be met by 0603 sized or larger devices, but I hope to produce in runs of the 100-200 units region, so any PnP that speeds up hand-placing is the dream!Are there any UK-based operators of a YY1 hanging around in here? And if so, what was the process for ordering the machine itself? I know that 'AMS Electronics' (https://www.ams-electronics.co.uk/) are seemingly the main distro for Neoden in the UK, but no sign of the YY1 on their site at the time of writing.Many thanks for everyone's input so far!

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 03:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: BackFire on March 21, 2023, 12:35:49 pmI hate to say it again, but the simple fact that a firmware update requires a board swap tells me everything I need to know about how worthless they expected their support to be. There's absolutely no excuse for that sort of approach on any product of this nature.Of course its entirely possible that the community could use this machine as a basis to reengineer all the parts that Neoden didn't expect to care about, and that might change things, at least if the mechanics are up to it.

author: itsrealfast
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2023, 02:41:57 pm
content: I pulled the trigger and bought oneWish me luck

author: bugrobotics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 07:45:03 pm
content: Good start. The crate arrived Monday and it is built nicely. I'll upload pics of the unboxing when I get around to it this weekend.

author: drgerber
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 08:59:04 pm
content: Quick update from our end as well.We are having the YY1 pretty much since the beginning.Must have put around 100 boards through the machine so far. Many different designs and mostly 0402 passives and QFNs. Large BGAs we are always placing by hand for prototyping runs.Really can't complain for that price. Does a solid job and ideal for prototyping and very small batch production.Maybe a few more tips I can give.Check the angle of your alignment bar (or whatever that aluminum bracket is called where you align the board) and adjust it if necessary. Check with the down looking camera when moving the head in the "manual" menu.Ours came with a very slight angle. So the larger the boards were the more placement error there were. Strange choice only supporting one fiducial but you can work your way around it.Second one is playing a little with the fiducial offset values in the fiducial menu. While it does say something like "not necessary" in the description it is indeed pretty important and may differ a little between different designs. Not sure why that is actually the case as we are always using the same fiducial type. Set up everything and go into the "mount" menu. Then click "step" until it reads "preview". Go through a few component positions and check the red hair cross for proper alignment. If it does not mach go back in the fiducial menu and change the offset coordinates.We are setting the datum for every new batch of boards by manually calculating it. Pretty sure that is not really necessary as any offset here should be ruled out by the fiducial but anyway...Moving the head to the center of a reference component and then subtracting the component coordinates from the machine bed coordinates. This is then what we enter in the parameter settings as the origin.The pulley wheel on the X axis was of a really bad quality. The hole was not exactly in the center which made the belt "wiggle" a little. You could watch the tensioner move when the head was going from left to right. We replaced it with a high accuracy 3D printed version with a press-fit. Head moves much smoother now and I guess placement quality also got a little better.

author: HallMark
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 05:57:56 am
content: Quote from: drgerber on April 05, 2023, 08:59:04 pmCan share that model ? I think their part is not nicely made.

author: HallMark
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 06:00:05 am
content: Is there any 3D models available for different types of feeder for YY1?They have cut tape space but I want to change it for all 16mm cut tape is there any 3D printable model available for YY1 Neoden?

author: sinewave
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 02:08:42 am
content: If anyone is going to Electronex on the 10th-11th of May, there will be a YY1 on display from Emlogic.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 09:53:14 am
content: Quote from: sinewave on April 23, 2023, 02:08:42 amI was going to go, but unfortunately have a family commitment.

author: nimish
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 09:13:46 pm
content: fyi there's a very prominent SWD header on the board, so anyone with a a $5 debugger could dump the firmware and/or update it easily. Or you could just tap the QFP lines and dump from there.It basically looks like a proprietary version of any 3d printer board except with onboard drivers. STM32F407 is commonly used there. If you can figure out the camera protocol then connecting them to usb/gpio would be easy too. I suspect you could get klipper running on it easily, and klipper already supports streaming g-code.I think someone on the openpnp list already has a BTT octopus working, so a simple $100 mobo swap would work assuming you can get the pins right.A pnp is a XYZ+R kinematic system + some cameras and a vacuum switch or two, so I'd expect most everything to work. For $3000 it's quite expensive, given that 0.050 repeatability (Chinesium(tm) ball screw) kinematics are <$1000 and feeders should be adaptable. Seems like a good starting point to adapt to a generic corexy motion system. Even with belts you can get that level of precision.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 11:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: nimish on May 01, 2023, 09:13:46 pmAnd feeders. Feeders are the hardest part. The motion side of things is easy.

author: nimish
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 12:47:34 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 01, 2023, 11:19:02 pmSure, but you can buy them off the shelf and adapt them to your motion system. I'd rather put the $2000 to decent feeders than overpaying for a fancy 3d printer chassis and head.Or for sub-production volume, no need to worry about feeders there.

author: 2nOrderEDO
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 03:24:52 pm
content: Hello everybody,I also pulled the trigger and purchased a NeoDen YY1. The payment went through today, so I guess it will be around in two or three weeks. I have the need to assemble around 50-60 PCBs annually for a client, and the machine can really help speed up the process. There is also a product I want to manufacture in house and sell, but I'm unsure about how demanded it will be.I made de decision after reading through the forum and watching almost all available videos about it in YouTube. I have someone who will babysit the machine for me in the worst case it needs constant attention. Anyways, I will record the unboxing and after gathering some experience wit the machine I will document my experience and get back to you.Kind regards,Enrique

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 07:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: 2nOrderEDO on May 02, 2023, 03:24:52 pmI love that optimism. I think you mean you hope it will really help speed up the process. Only time will tell.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 09:10:38 pm
content: Well only 50-60 pcbs per year come on that is a manual placing task.But even if the YY1 would place 2% of the components a bit wrong and that pcb has 200 components he still only has to realign 200 to 240 components instead of 12000. Yes it will safe him a lot of time after he has gotten it running. The setup and first trial runs will be the hardest.

author: nimish
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 02:59:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 02, 2023, 07:57:45 pmQuoteThis goes a long way, mind. Hiring someone for minimum wage to tend a pick and place for the day or two it'll need is cheap for small runs. It's not a complicated process.There's a wild jump between prototyping/very small scale and 1k+ runs where you're buying reels of components and I think there's a significant different in market needs: I don't need reel feeders for the 5 board run but I need to place 0402/0201/WLCSP components and I physically cannot do that. The cost of a few bungled components is enough to pay for machine a few times over.Someone making 500 boards to sell definitely needs reliable auto-feeding but maybe not ultra high precision positioning.Anyway linear modules are dirt cheap from China these days. Even rolled ball screws linear modules can hit C5 precision which is trivially verifiable by a test indicator. At <$300 a pop who even cares? You need ~3-4 to make a highly precise H gantry that'll outdo your hand any day of the week. Closed loop steppers are <$50 all in. It's a good time to build mechatronics.The YY1 seems like a solid deal. Assuming you can reverse the feeder protocol, replacing the mobo with an open source Klipper board looks viable. Lumenpnp feeders are nearly $100 each in 5-packs so them including a bunch is worth a lot I'd think.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 04:07:12 pm
content: Quote from: nimish on May 03, 2023, 02:59:56 pmIt depends on a board - my boards routinely contain 200+ 0402 components each, and about 50 of 0201 caps, so even 5 boards might be worth spinning pnp for. I can do manually one or two boards at a time, but even that takes several hours, and small parts are vast majority of components.

author: 2nOrderEDO
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 09:50:38 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 02, 2023, 09:10:38 pmYes, this amount I could do by hand (and I will even enjoy it hehe), but I'm quite busy working on other tasks only I can do, so wise time-management is a must. That is also why I would not want to babysit the machine myself.Quote from: nimish on May 03, 2023, 02:59:56 pmI'm glad you also agree. That someone babysitting the machine would be my lovely wife. It's funny that someone in this thread had the same idea and implemented it with positive results. Being a PnP operator is definitely not the worst job someone can have, specially in europe (I would say it is pretty cool job btw, but I'm biased because I love electronics)One can always start small with the YY1 and gradually grow to a point where a >5k machine would make sense.

author: bugrobotics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 05:27:23 pm
content: How are you guys saving the offsets? I can put whatever I want in the offset and nothing seems to change.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 09:00:55 pm
content: I haven't been keeping up with this thread so forgive me if this has been answered. I've not used my YY1 for some time because it was just so bad at placing components accurately. I should say that it is bad at placing 0402 components accurately enough. Often they are 50-100% off the pads. They also seem to be consistently off in one direction. I've went back in to calibrate the up looking camera and noticed it was off significantly. I repeated the calibration, placed a few sample components and noted they were still off. Went back in to check the up looking camera calibration and noticed it was off in the same axis as before. Checking repeatedly, I notice that the offset never seems to be saved. I can repeat the up looking camera calibration, hitting 'save' after and each time I go back in is is off in the same axis.Has anyone else run into this issue? I'm hopeful that if I can get the offset to be saved the machine might be useful.

author: sinewave
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2023, 12:11:52 am
content: Quote from: eflyersteve on May 11, 2023, 09:00:55 pmYes, I did. Do it a lot of times (10-20 times) and it seemed to fix it.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2023, 02:21:58 pm
content: I think I found at least the majority of my placement issues. I swapped nozzles and used head #2 to place some small 0402 parts and the alignment turned out great. I've always had the machine configured with head 1 for small chip parts and head 2 for tantalums, and small multi-leaded parts. Turns out the linear bearing on head one has a fair amount of play in it. Head 2 has no perceivable play at all. It seems that when the head moves down to place the component, the hose, cable and spring pulls it out of alignment. There isn't a way that I can see to adjust preload on the bearing (I've removed the head entirely and examined it) so I'm reaching out to Neoden to see if they can send both a new bearing and a new slide.Hopefully this resolves a lot of the issues I've had including inconsistent picking of parts.

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 08:38:45 pm
content: i just posted a 6 month review video of my YY1. ive picked about 20,000 components on it thus far and the only real issue ive had is the tape advance needle was starting to not be reliable. but neoden sent a replacement asap and i installed it in this video.

author: sinewave
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 09:37:33 am
content: I thought NeoDen has a few spare needles provided?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 09:58:52 am
content: Quote from: Smartbeedesigns on May 21, 2023, 08:38:45 pmDid you postmortem the faulty unit ? Symptoms looked like a bad connection

author: Smartbeedesigns
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 09:58:47 pm
content: Neoden had me do some test before they sent the replacement and it wasn't a connection issue or the needle binding up. It had to of been the solenoid was slowly failing.Either way the new one worked right away so im glad it solved the issue.

author: eflyersteve
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 03:54:34 pm
content: I wish mine worked at least consistently. Even after replacing the bearings and slide on one of the heads, I still have issues with being able to repeatedly place parts in the same location. I can cycle through all component locations and then immediately do it again and the locations will likely be off. Belts seem to be tight and I can cycle through the components forward and backward and it doesn't seem to make a difference so I don't think it is a backlash issue.The cover tape peeling mechanism has been a lot of trouble. I have installed the small set of tension devices and it is still too much and pulls the components through when it advances the tape.To those of you that have machines that can place 0402 parts consistently, consider yourself lucky to have gotten a machine without issues.A quick question - When picking loose, bulk passives, does your machine orient them correctly? Mine will locate the part but will place the parts without consideration of orientation. The vision system does recognize them and seems to align properly but won't rotate them 90 degrees when needed. Seems like that portion of the software was not finished.

author: bugrobotics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 05:54:57 pm
content: I'm bummed to say I haven't been impressed. I've placed a few thousands components thus far (all 0603 passives and bigger).Issues I've observed:setting the offsets in the machine is funky and sometimes offset aren't savedthe machine looses steps too easily. I can run a program maybe 10 times (20 PCBs total) and by the end the machine needs to be turned off and on again because the picking/placing becomes unreliablethe up facing camera doesn't seem to work that well. It will act as if parts are there when they are not. This behavior started a few days ago. I haven't messed with any settingsdropping angled components on the board is not reliable (other than 0 and 90). I have adjusted a connector supposed to be set at 52° probably 20 times and the angular move is not correct almost everit always fails to find the fiducial at the end of the program. I get a fiducial find error after every programif you have the panel layout improperly defined (too big) the machine will try to move outside of it's own max machine coordinates, disregard it's own limit switch and slams into the end stops, loosing steps and requires a restartthe needle retract spring is too weak on my machine. Luckily shortening the spring by about 1/3 solved almost all of the "needle stuck" errors.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 06:13:10 pm
content: The frustrating thing is that few, if any of the issues are down to the low hardware cost, but more to do with poor design and poor software.It has shown that _someone_ can produce a useable machine around this price, and hopefully another manufacturer will do a better job of it.Even if Neoden make improvements, they have lost a lot of credibility.

author: bugrobotics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 05:44:08 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 23, 2023, 06:13:10 pmCouldn't agree more. I wouldn't be able to ship a prototype that had a few of these behaviors (like disregarding the limit switch, traveling beyond a known limit, etc). The tape peeler mechanism is actually a non-issue for the most part on my end and I give them credit there as it's relatively robust so far. The software needs a bit more work.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 11:18:55 pm
content: That the software can ignore or override the limit switches seems particularly egregious. I would expect such a thing to work at a lower level - like, a limit switch directly and forcibly stops the stepper driver for that axis, then also signals the controller. Not like "hey, the X axis limit has been reached, thought you might wanna know, but if you're busy, I'll just leave a note for you to read later".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 05:40:21 am
content: Quote from: bugrobotics on May 23, 2023, 05:54:57 pmI'm trying to toss up between this and a 2012 vintage Madel PX3700 that needs some TLC. See my other thread.At least the YY1 has the potential for improvements that sound like mostly software?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 06:10:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 25, 2023, 05:40:21 amI would go for YY1 because you will have some vendor support if something goes wrong, and there are other owners here who can also help, while with that old machine you are on your own. And in general I prefer new stuff to used, but that's the matter of personal preference.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 06:37:18 am
content: Quote from: asmi on May 25, 2023, 06:10:05 amYes, that was my thought in the other thread.

author: sinewave
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 11:38:17 am
content: Has anyone been able to do 0201s with the YY1 as I cannot, I highly doubt that it will be able to reliably place 0201s but just wanted to check if anyone had success?

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 12:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on May 25, 2023, 06:10:05 amIf Neoden would send software updates, Daves question would be easy to answer. Then I would probably have already ordered a YY1 as well. But since a new software is always connected with the purchase of a new motherboard, I don't even think about it - this is a 90s strategy that has no place in this millennium. Therefore, I do not support the Neoden and its approach by buying a device.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 03:03:15 am
content: Quote from: Pinkus on May 25, 2023, 12:09:41 pmI had forgotten about that. That is the dumbest concept I've ever heard. Makes me not want to touch it either.I'd be fine with having to supply my own programmer or whatever etc, you don't expect a product like this to have seamless firmware updating, so long as firmware updates are available in some form.Getting a whole new board is a complete no-go.

author: sinewave
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 04:52:16 am
content: The controller board uses a bog standard STM32 with an SWD header exposed, unsure about the touchscreen controller but it may be possible to convince NeoDen to supply firmware files, doubt it though.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 07:30:37 am
content: Just speculation but firmware files have always been the weakest point in security for any device, with the exception of open communication ports.The chinese market is so competitive in stealing and copying eachothers products that this might be their only chance for protecting their IP.But IMO if I was Dave I would seek for a CNC mechanical equivalent in his surroundings and build a decent OpenPNP based PnP machine. That would make some nice YT content for his followers.It really should not be that hard.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 09:23:03 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 26, 2023, 07:30:37 amI asked Neoden why they can't just send out a HEX file and they just replied "Sorry,not convenient to share below info to customers.So yes, the only way to upgrade the firmware is to swap the entire PCB.They are still working on the two fiducial problem, and said it's not quick to do.If they really needed to do that, they could have put the micro on a small daughterboard and just sent that out.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 10:28:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2023, 09:23:03 amFrom various things I've seen from Neoden over the years, I suspect that they subcontract out their firmware to a third party, who charges them per unit.Even that could be managed in a more competent way.There is simply no excuse to ship a non-upgradeable device in this day & age.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 11:33:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2023, 09:23:03 amTwo fiducials are bad practice, imagine you have a little bit board warping things might be a little bit off then.Three fiducials are supposed to be the absolute minimum. I also support two "anonymous" fiducials (known points on the PCB which are not necessarily part of the BOM) in my software but I always use three and do an affine transformation on it.When using two fiducials simple trigonometry has to be used to adjust the component locations.I built my own machine and I'm upgrading on the go.We had one board in the past which warped a little bit it was very impressive how the yamaha pick and place machine which our external assembly contractor used handled those issues a long time ago.For the binary blob, maybe they have some GPL violations as well in the software if someone catches the image they might investigate what's on it resulting in destroying their business model. Certainly they might work towards fixing that for the future.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 11:49:46 am
content: AIUI Two fids are standard, but most subcontractors ask for 3 to detect a board inserted the wrong way round.If your PCB is so warped it needs more than 2 fids then you probably have bigger problems to worry about.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 12:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 26, 2023, 11:49:46 amthat's the smallest side-effect that you can detect if the board is right or not. Their software is very likely doing some affine transformation.Two fiducials cannot do that as you might know. The warpage of pcbs doesn't need to be extreme, small warpage can already cause some issues with some machines, so they won't detect the fiducials properly anymore (strictly pointing at Mechatronika at that point).Warpage itself is not a big deal if you know how to deal with it properly. With lower quality TG material it can be a common problem after reflowing one side of a double sided PCBs.Mechatronika is also only using two fiducials, I used this for a few years and went to affine transformation .. and never looked back.Since their software was such an epic failure with our components we rewrote the software and things evolved step by step.The machine is not being used anymore but we built another one in Taiwan (with all the knowledge we collected over the years).

author: sinewave
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 01:12:18 pm
content: Technically there are two fids, one being the origin point.

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 01:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2023, 09:23:03 amI hate lazy excuses like this.Given that many people here now likely have older spare PCBs from these board swaps, I'm wondering if anyone would like to actually try and copy the firmware off of them and see if field upgrades are actually possible. It may just be a matter of putting together the right sort of programmer cable, and otherwise using standard tools.Right now it sounds like their only reason is that they don't want to write instructions for plugging in an STLink dongle, or couldn't be bothered to write some sort of bootloader that could install updates off a microSD card or USB stick.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2023, 03:22:02 pm
content: Since you do not know if the pcb layout, components etc is still the same even if you could copy and flash a newer firmware to an older board you still could potentially damage it rendering your guarantee to void.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 12:39:02 am
content: Quote from: dkonigs on May 26, 2023, 01:53:26 pmI think they are protecting their code.I told them that I probably wouldn't buy one because of this and they are fine with that. And they know how much public exposure I can bring them. So don't expect them to change their stance on this.Brymen do the same thing, although they do trust dealers like me with the HEX file under NDA.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 12:42:20 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 26, 2023, 10:28:13 amYeah, if this was the plan form the get-go then why wouldn't you desing a small processor daughterboard?At this sort of volume and target customer base, everyone would have been ok with getting posted a small chip board to update the firmware. Cost is minimal, HEX file never gets released.

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 01:44:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 27, 2023, 12:39:02 amSomeone with spare boards leftover from past upgrades could absolutely test this. They'd just have to see if code readout protection was actually enabled on the microcontroller.Of course its still possible to protect the code without limiting distribution, by using some sort of cryptographic method within the update process. But that would require a fancy bootloader to install updates, and obviously requires a lot more engineering effort than they want to put in to this.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2023, 05:40:04 am
content: Quote from: dkonigs on May 27, 2023, 01:44:37 amYou'd usually only go to that effort for a high volume more consumer oriented product.

author: BTI_LTD
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 10:57:49 pm
content: We've had ours for about 8 months. I have designed and manufactured components (heads, frame systems, etc.) for openpnp users for years so my expectations were quite tempered. Precise, repeatable motion ishard. I have to say that we are very happy with this little machine, and with dealing with Neoden in general. I was messaging Tonny the other night about completely custom tape feeder modules and custom strip tape holders and they were happy to oblige.We created a YouTube video on it when we got it, setup and initial tests etc. I have footage for a follow-up video where we pull the YY1 out of the cupboard after sitting in there for 2 months, turn it on and just try and assemble our boards with no other preparatory action.There are certainly some math issues hiding in the firmware, but overall it has done all we ask of it. We assemble about 54 PCBs in a sitting, which after setup, pasting, flowing, mucking around (deciding to tweak some things along the way) is about a 6 to 8 hour process. We used to spend that long just preparing our old PnP to run these jobs. Feeders have been great for us. Maybe twice we've had to switch out the little friction parts on the peelers when they pull the tape instead of just the cover tape.One outstanding 'issue' is that we cant get it to place TQFP 48 processors perfectly, at least 50% of them need a slight bump with a steady hand and tweezers. I have not asked Neoden about this as it is not a major concern for us, I did not actually expect those to be perfect every time on a $3000 machine.I agree that not being able to update firmware remotely is a major detractor, but we've been happy with ours as-is, and if some major changes happen we are ok to spent $200 on parts to make it happen.Regards,Peter.

author: level6
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 03:41:33 pm
content: I have been rather pleased with my YY1 also. Once you understand its quirks and limitations, it's actually a nice little machine.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 04:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: BTI_LTD on September 11, 2023, 10:57:49 pmCan you pls share a link to the video?

author: alpelectronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 09:46:45 am
content: Exactly. I find it perfect for 0603. For 0402, there shouldnt be so many board in one panel. Because the head drifts. For 0201 I guess, there should be only one board at a time.Quote from: level6 on September 13, 2023, 03:41:33 pm

author: BTI_LTD
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 18, 2023, 04:16:29 pm
content: Here is the first video. I have not finished the follow-up one yet.https://youtu.be/DDgkHmDhd_Q?si=OjyvRT-HFJlTlGFRPeter.

author: Tonny-NeoDen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2024, 07:28:25 am
content: Can find a demo YY1 working file via below link:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O-IEVR3Ad8KWkZiy7U9n1N9NKSc6jn16/view?usp=sharing

author: Junkwizard
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 10:31:06 am
content: Bought the Neoden YY1Spent a couple hours setting things up and getting my kicad pos files converted to yy1 formatting style, I struggle for a while tuning the USBC tape feeder (can't seem to test pick tapes in pitches other than 4mm) and then it kept dumping parts in the trash binLo and behold the vision uplooking camera is completely down! No LED lights, no camera view just absolutely nothing! The LCD works fine it lights up at the start but it's completely dark otherwise, the camera is feeding it no data.Right now I'm hoping it's just a power cable that's not plugged in but all of the cables I see on the left side of the machine seem to be seated correctly hell it looks like some are encased in resin or glue. I'm loathing opening this thing up, what a complete kick in the nuts.

author: AlexNT81
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 09:24:28 pm
content: Hello community. I am trying to start working on a new neoden. So far the result is negative. I am doing calibration. I am trying to adjust the feeder, but the machine is trying to take elements with an offset.https://youtu.be/QIZP6itFnDIhttps://youtu.be/6qxHIQYe03Yhttps://youtu.be/VYGleDeaNQgHere's the problem. I haven't found a solution yet.

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 12:50:30 pm
content: For the calibration function with the little black paper, you use the down facing camera to put the crosshair on the mark it makes. Not the up facing camera to center the tool directly.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 11:53:23 pm
content: Quote from: BTI_LTD on September 18, 2023, 04:16:29 pmThis is a great video, very helpful for anyone contemplating a YY1!It's been a year, so a super belated comment, but I think the consistently missing 5th 0201 is your error. It places the first four in pairs, then four more in pairs skipping the 5th, and finally places the last one as a single. I think you just skipped a position when you set up the test from the panel.What a nice machine!

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 12:58:01 am
content: Could one of you with the machine within reach offer a quick measure of the YY1's footprint? For some reason this is not on the Neoden website. Not looking for anything super accurate. With any rear clearance needed.

author: djnorm
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 02:50:51 pm
content: 27W x 22D. That leaves room for breathing space. The rubber feet are about a 19" square.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2024, 07:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: djnorm on October 22, 2024, 02:50:51 pmI would say the working depth is at least 24 inches. And yes on the 27 in width, but you want to have an additional 8 inches on each side to let you change out the reels. So call it 43 inches working width. (I just measured mine...)

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 06:45:46 pm
content: 27x24 is still VERY compact... Easily put on a sturdy bench!

author: 2nOrderEDO
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 09:46:47 am
content: Just contributing another piece of information.Bukinr has already tried converting the YY1 to OpenPNP.https://github.com/mdepx/neodenyy1Looking forward to someone who wants to try this first :-)

author: okebbeko
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 27, 2025, 05:03:01 pm
content: Hi,What do you guys think, will this machine able to populate fine pitch connectors?For example the one for rPI CM5?Amphenol 10164227-1001A1RLFThe connector is 100pin, 0.4mm pitch, 22.6x3mm. It is on a 44mm plastic tape.And for example this, Panasonic P5KS100 pin, 0.5mm pitch, connector is 7mm tall and 28.2x4.6mmThis is also in a 44mm plastic tape.Thanks!

author: newto
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 01:06:15 pm
content: The pitch would be fine, the problem is the length and the camera.That would be too long to get a full view of using the upwards facing camera, so the machine wouldn't be able to verify the orientation. You'd have to place it "blind" and hope it isn't twisted at all after pickup. I do a few placements like that with our machine, but nothing that fine or long

author: okebbeko
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 07:03:00 am
content: Thanks. That was a worry for me as well.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2025, 06:05:49 am
content: don't expect any of these machines to do 0402 .......I know they all claim 0402. yes they also claim repeatability to 0.01mm but only do about 0.2.....KayoA4, TVM920 , various Neoden machines.....Pickup is hard with 0402and every feeder really does need to be optically aligned.Yammy CL feeders are a barely pass on 0402. The yammy FT are a bit better on 0402 (newer Kayo uses them) .If you want to do 0402s reliably, buy a used Jap or Korean machine.Or use OpenPNP with a mechanically reliable platform ( ball screws only) . I think Jon Oxer got the Kayo A4 and OpenPNP working OK on 0402.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2025, 07:40:54 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on May 14, 2025, 06:05:49 amEven then, be careful what you buy and how old it is. Plenty of those machines take multiple generations of feeder types including the older ones that don't play nicely with 0402. Another thing to watch out for is a lot of feeders are fixed pitch, so you need to own 2&4mm pitch feeders. Some platforms might handle this with a 4mm advance and a double pick (this is what happens on Essemtec CLM) but plenty do not.I don't think any of the cloned/refurb'd electronic programmable pitch feeders come anywhere close to being as cheap as even a "good" CL feeder - could be wrong, would love to hear if someone has found a good example.