Are all my circuit breakers wired wrong? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 06:46:33 am
content: https://goo.gl/images/krrP4RIf I read the little schematic on the front right, inlet should be from the top (1&3) and users should be the bottom (2&4)?The manufacturer does not have a user guide...The electricals of this house were done by a drunk joker, so I'm second guessing myself now...Thank!

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 07:05:17 am
content: You'd want to check carefully. Some are explicitly bidirectional to allow for top or bottom feed in switchboards. I got caught with this recently with some new Clipsal combo RCD/mcb combos which turned out to be bidirectional. Convenient that!Think about what a circuit breaker is and how it works, in theory there is no difference between in and out. RCDs are different though and most I've seen are explicitly unidirectional.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 07:14:01 am
content: I think I might have to resort to making a few sparks to check...

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 07:31:42 am
content: Can't see your image. Some page about a redirect comes up.But, if you are wondering about RCDs, you don't need sparks. Just a resistor to bleed a few mA from the mains to the earth pin should trip the RCD.In Oz, the neutral line is earthed at the meter box, so neutral at power points is always within a few mV of ground. But, it's still enough to trip the RCD if you short neutral to ground at a power point.This has surprised me a couple of times, while doing wiring to a house circuit with the power board circuit breaker to that circuit turned off. Stripping wires, accidentally touch N to E. Everything else in the room (on other breakers) goes dead. They were all on the same RCD.All the RCDs I've ever seen were bidirectional, same as plain CBs. Reason being that practice allows the supply side to be either the top or bottom in circuit breaker boards BUT they must all be wired the same direction on any board. So if RCDs had to be one way, that would screw up the wiring direction uniformity.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 07:43:13 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 01, 2017, 07:31:42 amRCD on each are more of a commercial installation thing here. In a house panel, there is one at the entry, then N+P CB's for each line. All the circuit breakers are differential.Full link;http://www.hager.be/producten-e-catalogus/energieverdeling/modulaire-beveiliging-voor-huishoudelijke-toepassingen/automaten/automaten-3ka-schroefklemmen/mwn216a/37719.htm

author: mij59
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 08:02:15 am
content: The inlet is at the bottom of the circuit breaker, usually connected with a power distribution rail, users are connected at the top of the device.The circuit breaker shown has protection on both poles, this is for users with only line and neutral not needed.Assuming the regulation in the Belgium is similar to the Netherlands, a RCD can power a maximum of 4 circuit breakers.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 08:29:22 am
content: Quote from: mij59 on January 01, 2017, 08:02:15 amYup same rules.This is the box that distributes electricity to the 1st floor.I've already rewired it as it looked like the dogs diner.I was re-installing the lines coming in from the top when doubt started to creep in...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 09:27:17 am
content: Some RCD devices are not bidirectional, as they have active circuitry powered from the output side to sense the current and trip the breaker. Often they also include loss of neutral sensing as well, which means that in the case of a fault like neutral loss the RCD will try to trip the breaker continuously on loss of neutral and burn out the trip coil, as it is rated for less than a second duty cycle, and has to trip even on half mains voltage.Those are marked so when new, but often only on a label on the screw terminal covers to warn the installer, who ignores it when backfeeding the breaker.Isolators are not directional, and often the incoming isolator is back fed, which can be an issue if the isolator is combined with the RCD as well, as is allowed in many electrical codes.Luckily the RCD coil will just fail open circuit and not catch fire too badly, but the RCD itself will not work afterwards, and will kill you at the first fault.As to the OP panel, that one is terrible, no cable glands on inlets, conduit too far into the cabinet, but at least half of the bluury wiring is neat. They never stay neat too long with work done on them.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 09:55:55 am
content: It has always been my understanding that the input for a circuit breaker should be at the bottom and the output is taken from the top. Some RCD devices include a small schematic on the front and both of the devices in our electrical cupboard have this, this also shows power input at the bottom.If a device insists on input at the top then the manufacturer has some urgent questions to ask.EDIT:RCDs are never bidirectional devices and the reason for this is the test button which has to be on the output (assuming a simple resistor is used). If the test button was across the input then the current sense coils would not detect an imbalance and force a trip.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 11:03:47 am
content: Quote from: gildasd on January 01, 2017, 06:46:33 amThe picture shows a normal two-pole miniature circuit breaker (MCB)where both poles, the Phase and Null are protectet "monitored"by the device.The device shown on the picture is not an RCD!There is a second kind of two-pole MCBs available, where onlyone pole, the Phase, is protectet and the sceond poleis only switched by the device.In this case, the switched side is switched by a special switchwhich ensures that the Null line is closed bevore the Phase linewhen swichted on and opens after the Phase line whenthe device is triggerd to switch off.If you use that kind of devices it is importend to connect thePhase with the correct side of the device, nomally the left one/sis/are the breaker/s and the most right one is the switch forthe Null line.But back to your question, at nearly all two-pole miniaturecircuit breakers it is similar wich side of the device (top or bottom)is connectet with the line and which with the load.Best practice is to connect the line side with the bottomand the load side with the top of the device.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 11:07:56 am
content: Ok, resided the lot from the top...The little schematic has the "power source" symbol coming in from the top but no neutral sign...These breakers are only sold on the Dutch and Belgian market apparently, so might explain weirdness.I've seen both cases but usually it's very clear in the install PDF..

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 11:41:30 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on January 01, 2017, 09:55:55 amExcept for when they are, like the Clipsal mcb/RCD combos I have that are explicitly marked as bidirectional.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 12:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on January 01, 2017, 11:07:56 amThe device has no special neutral marking, because on this devicethere is no special neutral side (left or right), both sides are protectedby the device.I assume the case why this breakers are only soldon the Dutch and Belgian market is their ratedshort circuit breaking capacity, which is only 3kA!This is very low and for example not allowed in germany,in germany the minium rated short circuit breaking capacityhas to be 6kAThe counterpart of this device, sold in germany, is the HagerMCN216 16A "C"-characteristic (10xIn) 6kAand the MCN516 16A "C"-characteristic (10xIn) 6kAthe later one is the 1+N device.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 01:14:50 pm
content: Yep, breakers for DIN rails got their input at the bottom and the output at the top. That follows the usual way the cables are installed. The cable from the main distribution or utililties' termination point from the bottom, and all flat/floor cables from the top. For checking mains wiring and RCDs I'd recommend something likehttp://www.benning.de/duspol-voltage-testers-en.html. Those are professional tools used by sparkies, and the basic one is around €50.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 05:21:29 pm
content: Ultimately, your circuit breakers are do-as-you-please. In Belgium/France, we used to wire both RCD and CB with supply on top, consumers on bottom. For CB, it was a convention, not an obligation. If CB were fed from bottom, you had to post a warning sign in front of the box. Now both are common and comb bus bars make less of a mess :

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 05:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on January 01, 2017, 09:55:55 amSe the attached image. The test button will cause the test current to flow regardelss of where the input is. If fed from the top, the sensing circuit is disconnected when off, but the protection works both ways.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 05:36:33 pm
content: Quote from: Koen on January 01, 2017, 05:21:29 pmInteresting how conventions differ so much between neighbors.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 08:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: madires on January 01, 2017, 05:36:33 pmYou should see the electrical cabinets on a 25 year old ship...Rules and conventions? Yes, a lot.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 09:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: Koen on January 01, 2017, 05:21:29 pmThis fix is temporary.I'm doing a heavy renovation of the house next year and fitting an all new box.And it's sure as hell getting an all bus bars setup!As a side note, the is the "good" box, the main box downstairs is much much worse.I had an electrician friend try to sort it out, his job includes rewiring installations in Africa, old Soviet trains etc.He ended in concluding to leave it as as because it made no sense, was totally unfixable and the only solution would be to start clean from the meter.The house inspector also gave up on it after 13 remarks, each being a "fail to pass"!

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 02:59:58 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 01, 2017, 07:31:42 amI feel for you so much. Sometimes I dream about having some secret kode/key on RCD with an "I know what I'm doing, disable RCD" option. In Poland it's worst with mains sockets as earth is this big metal rod that's not on plug, but in socket. There are probably more technician injuries from hurting yourself when lights go out suddenly during wiring than from any actual electic stuff.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 04:08:51 pm
content: In the US, GFCIs/RCDs (where they are used) only trip individual branch circuits. Those other countries are too cheap to do it that way...

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 04:41:33 pm
content: It is convenient to have individual GFI/RCD, but especially with old installations there is usually not much space in the breaker board. In new installations there is often a rather large number of CBs and thus again more CB than RCDs. Things can change with combined CB and RCD in one unit and new codes requiring CB to separate L and N instead of only L.Usually light should have a separate RCD, if at all.I the US the even have RCD directly at the outlets - so they kind of work even with only two wires in the wall.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 05:36:18 pm
content: Quote from: karoru on January 02, 2017, 02:59:58 pmBut it do them because the differential(RCD) is bouncing all time(the same on Spain). And the genius for resolving the trouble , they take off the differential or wire ground and the trouble is already resolvedThen it happens the accidents as the kids that had dead by touching a streetlight. Or like my mother with the mammograph, that every time what she touched the machine , she recieved a electroshock. Until that a patient recieved a electroshock on the nipple. and my mother urged to patient for complaining to Hospital . Then they fixed the machine.Here , i give a spanish video where they teach like installing to transient protectors and differentials on old electrical box(rat nest)https://youtu.be/YnYLHYkDVO0

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 09:00:18 pm
content: At my home all RCDs are TOP -> IN, Bottom -> Out.Edit: all my hagers are bi-directional, test button or that stupid screwdriver with light bulb trips them both ways.

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 09:14:13 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 02, 2017, 04:08:51 pmIn my country it's mandatory to have separate RCDs for dangerous areas which must be separate from other sections (water/gas) so kitchen, bathroom is a must.Edit: a bit off-topic but maybe you guys know where I could get non "one hung low" gas leak thingy that could trip RCD? I was thinking about something like this for kitchen (building is very old USSR.. so you never know when you can get leak..), but can't find anything good locally, and I have no idea how it should be called in "English"

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:18:03 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 02, 2017, 04:08:51 pmIt's nice to have the choice and not have our configuration mandated where one size does not fit all.I have individual RCDs for each circuit including stuff that by law does not require an RCD ( such as ducted A/C, stove & oven ). Because a lot of houses over here only have one power circuit for all hose GPO's there is plenty of wiggle room in the regs for how the RCDs are configured to allow for retrofits. I *could* have easily gotten away with just 2 RCDs and some downstream breakers, but given the RCDs are now the same size as the breakers it was just easier to use them everywhere in lieu of stand alone breakers and saved me the board space required to house the separate RCDs. I figured I was already spending a few grand on a board upgrade, so an extra couple of hundred bucks to put individual RCDs was cheap insurance so that when the kids put a knife in the toaster I don't lose office power or lights.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:02:33 am
content: But that's exactly what we have in the US. More individual circuits so one fault doesn't shut off half the house. The outlets in each of my bedrooms is a different circuit, so one bedroom won't kill the others, and the lights are not on the same circuit as the outlets, so sticking something in the outlet and shorting it won't kill the lights so you can see to get out. Major appliances like AC and range need to be on their own circuits.I lean towards overkill. It was only required that the outlet to the left and to the right of the sink be protected with a GFI. ALL of my kitchen counter outlets are GFI protected, including the two that are around the corner from the sink by the range. I'm redoing my basement and the projected load would be easily handled by a single 20 amp circuit for outlets (plus lights, and a dedicated line for the furnace, and another for the laundry (drier is gas, so only use a 120VAC outlet). However, My plan will have 2 and probably 3 circuits, one to be switched - the switched circuit is where all of my model railroad equipment will plug in so that I can be sure everything is shut off by hitting one switch. No leaving potentially dangerous tools like soldering irons plugged in overnight, etc.