Help with choosing my first (serious) oscilloscope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Ranney
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 08:44:57 am
content: Dear everyone,Here's an absolute beginner's question. I am a nurse and interested in beginner work with an oscilloscope. I bought a 3D printer during the covid time (as a distraction) and put it together. Learned a lot and one thing led to another. First worked with visual studio, made simple adjustments to the firmware and later did the whole layout, tuning and tweaking (with help of a developer). Then there was a 2nd and 3rd 3D printer and this grew into soldering (Chinese printed circuit boards sometimes give the opportunity to gain some experience in this by replacing a blown moffset). After this I gained experience with some simple soldering work with my LF-2900 and get it working with my Rigol DP711. This is mainly to gain experience. This interest grew into an oscilloscope. I decided (to avoid making mistakes with short by grounding problems) to buy a (Battery operated) Fluke 196c. I've have this now for over 2 years, however, it's complex for me (I can't get the trigger right, hopelessly old interface, no export options, etc) and can't really do what I'm looking for.In short, I am looking for a good oscilloscope that will not be used very often, but that will hopefully last a lifetime.Since I have good experiences with Rigol and I am a real beginner, I hope to find an oscilloscope that is user-friendly. Concrete, good manual, touch screen, if possible explanation on screen, good user base so I can ask questions, etc.I started looking for what is important for an oscilloscope and especially read a lot of stories about the amount of Mhz (higher is better) and that this should be at least 5x the expected freq.It is probably a very strange thought, but I feel that as a beginner I don't need that much at all.What I find especially important is clear and helpful interface, UART serial decoding where possible, simple triggering and robustness. I especially hope that he can help me learn/understand things. How do neo pixels work, how to tune PWM controllers (and how do they work), how does USB control via UART work, why is a fan humming on low speed by pwm, etc.I have absolutely no interest in dangerous measurements of which I have insufficient knowledge (such as looking up a sine wave on a 230v wall socket. I have wikipedia for that). So 24v is the max I will use (3D printers are most of the time 12v or 24v)Because I prefer to buy 1x good than 10x a little, my budget would now be about 1250 euros.The MSO5000 series and DHO1000 series are an option now. However, I am stuck making a choice here.The MSO5000 series seems to be easy to mod to a maxed out version and to be quite complex in interface. The DHO1000 series is less easy to mod if I read it correct, however, the interface looks a lot 'simpler' for a starter. But then I assume that with the DHO1000 series I have to do it with the entry specs of 70Mhz.So my idea is DHO1074 (good beginner interface?) vs MSO5074 (specs?)Do you have any advice or tips for a beginner? Maybe that I am completely wrong with my choice! I'm trying to learn by doing... Many thanks in advance for any advice and/or tip! (And sorry for my poor English!)

author: Solder_Junkie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 10:35:57 am
content: Unless you really have a need for something more, the SDS1000 series from Siglent, or the DS1000 series from Rigol are perfectly good enough for most hobby/home/small workshop users. Don't forget that an oscilloscope spends a lot of time turned off and sitting on a shelf. The Rigols were "hackable" to enable higher bandwidth, currently they come as standard with the original (extra cost) features enabled, except the increased bandwidth.The old standard was a 2 channel 100 MHz vacuum tube analogue scope, these days none of the main manufacturers make them, only digital with an LCD screen. Often users are told to buy an old analogue scope as they are easier to understand... nonsense, you can pre-set a digital scope and capture a transient event so easily, something that is virtually impossible with those old scopes.Four channels can be handy at times. Beware that the Rigol DS1000 scopes come with awful probes, or at least my DS1054Z did, so factor in the cost of additiona probes, ordinary x1/x10 100 MHz probes are fine for most purposes.I would look to only spend 1/4 of that budget on a scope...SJ

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 10:45:50 am
content: Quote from: Solder_Junkie on August 01, 2023, 10:35:57 amWhich are incapable of decoding whereas the 1000X-E versions are, 2 or 4ch.However the OP has asked for touch capable DSO's which puts him/her into another price bracket as to be touch useful you need a 10" display unless you are only ever to use it with a mouse.With a budget of 1250 Euro the SDS2104X Plus is a good fit and currently with a worldwide free BW upgrade to 200 MHz.

author: Ranney
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 11:52:09 am
content: Thank you very much for both advice! I would really like to have a decoder built in because I am already interested in UART communication. Since I have not had any training in this direction, I attach great value to a good UI with images and explanations. Therefore my above average budget as a starter to spend more money on this and not have the same experience as with the FLuke 196c (which is undoubtedly also a good device for users with more knowledge and experience!)I'm also going to look at the Siglent. Thanks for this suggestion!

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 01:32:13 pm
content: I do not have one but I think this thing does UART communication. Anyway it is a fun thing to look at.Dave likes it. I think it looks really cool. It apparently is designed for the education of electronic beginners. Maybe it meets your needs.To me it looks like a lot more than a beginners gadget.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1552-digilent-analog-discovery-3/msg4948891/#msg4948891Here is a link to the use of the unit for UART: this discussion uses the Analog Discovery Studio:https://digilent.com/reference/test-and-measurement/guides/complementary-labs/lab6/startPerhaps using something other than just a scope might conserve finances and expand your testing ability. However, I am waiting for one that makes you smarter also.Maybe someone with some experience with these Analog Discovery things could comment.In general with many things including electronics, appliances and automobiles, the high end of the middle priced units usually has the greatest value.I think the Sigilent Scopes fill this particular price point. ( I do not have one yet)Unless someone gives you one don't bother with the analog scopes. They are very nice but getting old. They do help with things like audio freq better than the digital scopes I have used. They most likely will require repair work. And you need the "one shot" abilities of a newer scope.I just passed up a Tek 475 200 MHz scope at a hamfest for $50, it was working and displaying the calibration square wave. I already have one.About probes, I have bought affordable knock off probes from Chinese manufacturers that appear to beat least as goodas the expensive HP probes I have. I believe the HP probes are also made in China. Just make sure the probes match the input capacitance of the scope.I use an old Agilent 54820 500 MHz Digital Scope, and several older scopes.Anyway these are just some rambling thoughts. If you continue to ask questions here you may be inducted into the TEA thread and never return to normalcy.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 01:54:50 pm
content: You might get something from CharlotteSwiss' epic thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/msg3100087/#msg3100087It takes up to reply 150 for a buying decision but then the fun begins. Were it me, I would buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E and unlock it for 200 MHz. This scope wasn't available when I bought the Rigol DS1054Z and unlocked it for 100 MHz.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1104z-vs-siglent-sds1104x-e-any-reviews/

author: Ranney
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 12:17:47 pm
content: Thanks all for the advice and info!Now reading in to the SDS2104X Plus and comparing it

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 02:20:01 pm
content: Quote from: Ranney on August 02, 2023, 12:17:47 pmWith the current free BW upgrade to 200 MHz it's hard to beat.I quite recently checked the -3db point of a unit we installed the 200 MHz BW upgrade into and it tested to ~300 MHz.

author: Ranney
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 04:59:09 pm
content: After a long search, I've made a choice.The MSO5074 is now 1070 Euro here. The SDS2104X Plus is around 1450 euro (cheapest I can find it). I'm a starter so my idea is that both of them can do (way more) than I'm looking for / what I need.I've contacted both company's what they can offer for a starter. Siglent did not reply (in a week) and Rigol offered a discount of 12,8% (what makes it 950 euro). The reviews are clear that the Siglent is (way) better, but the price is also ±50% higher. So placing these devices next to each other, I think that they can both do (way more than) what I need and both of them take (a lot of) time to learn how they work. So I've bought the MSO5074 and I think(/hope) that that is a nice price and device for a starter without experience to learn.Many thanks for all your time and advice!

author: robca
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 09:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: Ranney on August 01, 2023, 11:52:09 amI'm always puzzled by people looking at protocol decoding on oscilloscopes (and spending more money for that). If you need protocol decoding, an oscilloscope is the wrong tool. what you want is a logic analyzer. Even a basic 8 channel 24MHz Saleae clone for ~$10 can do more than any oscilloscope. Even better, you can stack decoders so you can see the EEPROM commands over SPI and use a PC to analyze megabytes of data.I mean, I'm not saying you are choosing a bad oscilloscope (it's not), just that an oscilloscope is not the preferred tool for protocol analysis. Logic analyzers are the best tool. And they cost nothing ($100 gets you a terrific 16 channels, 400MHz one)I would also suggest looking at used oscilloscopes, if you are a beginner and looking to learn. Even an old Rigol would be more than you need now, and once you learn more you can resell for the same price you paid and at that point will know enough about oscilloscopes to know what you really want. For example, I cannot possibly imagine touch being a plus in an oscilloscope and worth paying more for (I used scopes since the late 70s, btw)And if you wait one or two years, what costs 1500 Euro today, will cost much less once you are ready to buy a better one after outgrowing the used one.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 11:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: Ranney on August 08, 2023, 04:59:09 pmYou just asked for a discount and they gave you 12,8%?1. Nice!!!2. I've gotta start asking for such things

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 12:33:01 am
content: Quote from: robca on August 08, 2023, 09:56:30 pmOh, I would beg to differ.... and I have (and have extensively used) several USB based protocol/logic analyzers, from the cheap $10 ones to much higher end analyzers.There are several things that a scope-based protocol analyzers can do that a USB-based analyzer cannot, such as advanced filtering and triggering. You also have the ability to see the analog waveforms, which is pretty important when things aren't working as planned.If you have a reliable, low-speed serial link, then yes, the USB based analyzers often work just fine and are an excellent value for the money. But in my experience, most of the people doing professional development / debug of serial protocols prefer to use scope-based protocol/logic analysis.But yeah, for a first scope as a hobbyist, I don't think that spending the money to buy the MSO option makes a lot of sense

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 04:13:42 am
content: Quote from: robca on August 08, 2023, 09:56:30 pmThere was a time and not too long ago I thought that way too however touch capable is mouse capable too and the use of 3 types of inputs into the UI speeds scope use immensely, try it some time.

author: Ranney
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 06:53:09 am
content: Dear Robca,First of all, thank you very much for your open and honest response!I will try to explain it with my poor english.1. You are absolutely right. It is undoubtedly overkill. But it's Hobby, I hope to learn from it and it should be fun.2. I have purchased the Fluke 196c in the past on the recommendation of others. Good brand (I think that's the only thing I paid for) and solid (it will..) The first 'project' I wanted to do with it was to learn how a stepper motor works. Oh, I need four channels for that. Next I wanted to find out what the difference is between microstepping and the classic 16 steps. Ok, also need 4 channels. Then discover what the difference is between an RPI3 and RPI4 in speed of control. Ok, I have now learned that there is continuous UART communication (incl temp reports and ACK).. So how am I going to do that, ahh, I need to be able to read in real time when the command comes in (Serial decoding) and how many ms it takes for the stepper motor actually executes the command. (hence serial decoding - completely agree, reading in itself can be done with a simple device. But I believe it is there because I sent it 'myself'.) This was not possible with the Fluke. Next came Klipper vs Octoprint. Is it really that much faster.... Serial decoding required. Etc. (Neopixels are next in line)3. I find myself unable to do anything with the Fluke. I don't understand it, can't discover a community for it, was not a suitable purchase at all afterwards. But yes, you ask anyone; what is a decent oscilloscope where I can't commit major (grounding) blunders, then it is most likely a good answer (So my question was wrong). The question is now different, unfortunately learned through shortcomings and mirrors to myself. And yes, I think the Fluke is old, unfriendly and ugly too..4. I have also learned that I prefer to buy something good that lasts a long time and does not impose any restrictions on my hobby than something that is just good enough (If I am the limitation myself, it triggers me more to dive into it further). That Fluke has given me more frustration than answers or learning efficiency. And by good enough I also mean that I am of the generation that really wants to use a keyboard/mouse and/or want to use touch. In other words, something intuitive to use together with a Manual and a community where I can occasionally ask a 'stupid' question.That has made me increase my budget in the hope that this device not only provides answers, but with an AWG and 4 channels can also help me in the future to learn how things work and thus become a little wiser. And yes, a lot of things are explained on the internet. But mostly theoretical or technical and not both in 1 story. I hope to be able to (/learn to) do and see this myself now!

author: Ranney
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 07:00:44 am
content: @ mwb1100Yes, I saw it on their website! (No advertising, but this image):So I thought I'll briefly explain to them that as an amateur and a nurse I'm trying to learn things. It is not used professionally. Is there a discount or anything else possible for a beginner @dare to ask.They were extremely friendly and said they could give a discount if I wanted and received a personal discount code (never seen a discount code with my name in it). I can only say that this made the MSO5074 even more attractive compared to the Siglent and I also really appreciate it when a company responds sincerely and makes a nice offer.