Wikipedia website new design - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2020, 10:45:47 pm
content: Just came across this article at first of a Wikipedia website designhttps://www.theverge.com/2020/9/23/21453300/wikipedia-desktop-redesign-2021QuoteI prefer it the way it is at the moment, I read the contents, lots of detail, less scrlling , I can see everything, no excessive animations of things in the way that may annoy me.The only proposal I like is that sliding left bar which doesn't bother me whether it hides or not as it doesn't get in the way of the contents. Also they are saying they are making it easy, but it don't find it difficult it looks pretty simple.I would find it difficult to concentrate if there are things stuck over the contents that I may not need or want to see at all, the empty white spaces where I would have scroll more and the animations like the one that appears over the search in the preview which also reminds of something similar to what happened in one of the recent Firefox releases in URL bar that I had to edit to Userchrome.css to stop it.Also as in the picture I woudn't want to be constantly reminded in large letters what I am reading like that sticky element "Toni Morrison". Maybe in small letters where I'd have to look to seek but I am unlikely to forget what I am actually reading but if it can slid in and out, by a little fixed symbol on the side when needed that would be a lot better for my concentration.It looks like they have options on legacy skins and layout where the skin can be altered which is nice:https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2020/11/wikipedia-lets-users-try-out-new.htmlWhat do you think of the proposed redesign?Edit: attachment parameters not working.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2020, 10:49:46 pm
content: I hate it when websites get redesigned. Unless the existing design is complete crap I wish everyone would just leave things alone. Even when the original is complete crap, the redesign is usually even crappier. Some people love change just for the sake of change, they have an addiction to everything being "fresh", can't stand that personally, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2020, 11:49:31 pm
content: It looks fine.You wanna see redesign abomination? Compare the new Reddit with the old.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 12:04:44 am
content: Wikipedia no longer loads on an old iPad, it rejects the security:"could not establish a secure connection to the server", so this is progress- as the iPad goes in landfill because a crapola Safari/ios update would also kill it.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 12:29:32 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on November 23, 2020, 11:49:31 pmI always rename to "old.reddit.com as I want to see everything in the thread and not just an answer underneath and then a whole bunch of other threads.When I signed to Wikipedia up I see these animations. I am not sure if they are recent or part of the old skin but I hid them:Code:wikipedia.org##.oo-ui-pendingElement-pendingcommons.wikimedia.org##.oo-ui-pendingElement-pending##.oo-ui-pendingElement-pendingcommons.wikimedia.org##.mw-echo-special-nojs##.mw-echo-special-nojsI like the old skin. To me the new skins I have seen seems to shrink the content space on the sides and the others with the fixed search toolbar at the top is a big nono, unless they put something there small at the top corner to show/hide it which will be handy down the page to appear only when I need it shown.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 01:33:57 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 24, 2020, 12:04:44 amThis is a result of the obsession with security - now, every site is signed, and certificates on older devices suffer from "planned obsolescence" as a result.A workaround might be to install a modern browser on the old device?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 01:35:55 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on November 24, 2020, 12:29:32 amYou can be sure that any modern web design will allow only one pixel on a 4K monitor to be a color other than white...And the only way to scroll will be to master a masonic handshake with the mouse!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 02:07:24 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on November 24, 2020, 01:35:55 amI absolutely loathe acres of useless white space. Every time display resolutions increase, these idiots decide to spread everything out a little more. I should be able to comfortably tile at least four applications on a decent size 4k monitor with room to spare but the way everything just scales up combined with all the wasted space makes it pointless to even get a high res monitor. Already I struggle to fit as much on my 1080p display as I used to fit on just 1024x768.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 07:42:19 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 24, 2020, 12:04:44 amThat has nothing to do with redesigns. That’s a purely web server thing, based on the very sound decision of the web world moving to all-encrypted traffic, and disabling old encryption algorithms that have been compromised.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 08:26:29 pm
content: What does it matter if wikipedia is encrypted? I'm all for secure encryption where it matters, but this seems to be one of those cases where it doesn't really and all the encryption adds is headaches.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 08:51:45 pm
content: Wikipedia is encrypted to prevent censorship.Previously, certain governments were censoring articles they didn't like. They can't do that now. They can only leave it be, or block the entire site for a given language (or MITM, but that would be obvious). Most therefore choose to not censor it.Moreover,allsites should be encrypted. And withLet's Encrypt, this is now easy.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 10:15:28 pm
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on November 24, 2020, 08:51:45 pmI don't understand what kind of encryption we are talking about here - is it anything more than using HTTPS?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 10:18:01 pm
content: So provide the ability for an encrypted connection and an open connection, this way devices that do not support the latest encryption can fall back to unencrypted. I don't like it when encryption is mandated, unless it's something involving credentials or personal data.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 10:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on November 24, 2020, 10:15:28 pmThis is just HTTPS, but when implemented competently, it's extremely hard to break.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 10:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 24, 2020, 10:18:01 pmThe problem with doing this is that governments/bad guys would block the HTTPS connection and devices would fall back to HTTP. So you cannot give them the option.You should be able to install a third-party web-browser on your iPad that contains newer certificates to resolve this issue.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 10:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2020, 10:19:16 pmWhat's stopping them from doing this already? An oppressive government could even host their own internal wikipedia, containing carefully curated and censored content from the genuine site and inhabitants would be none the wiser. Or they could just block wikipedia entirely.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2020, 11:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 24, 2020, 10:28:33 pmTLS. They can't MITM a site without every user's browser screaming bloody murder, as sometimes seen in corporate firewalls.An authoritarian government's only option is to pretend to be civilised and allow the site, or pretend to be in control and block it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 08:00:44 pm
content: Why do they need to pretend anything? If the site is in any way controversial just block it, that's what authoritarian governments do. I don't feel that it is my problem to try to deal with governments in other countries or worry about how they treat their citizens, that is the business of the citizens of that country, not mine.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 08:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 25, 2020, 08:00:44 pmMethinks you don’t understand the motivations of the people behind Wikipedia in the slightest.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2020, 08:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 25, 2020, 08:00:44 pmYou asked why and have been given a reason why. Besides, it's not as if US citizens have nothing to fear from their own government. The move to encrypted connections between server and client has in no small part been a response to Snowden's revelations. Thank your government for the situation.Besides, websites being unavailable on ancient devices is a non issue. Technology marches on. Move along or stay behind.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2020, 06:03:37 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on November 24, 2020, 08:51:45 pmWell any site using Let's Encrypt is going to stop working with older devices after September 2021, when they willno longer be cross-signed by IdenTrust. This includes Android < 7.1.1, and perhaps older iOS devices too. This is because none of them include Let's Encrypt in their root store, and instead rely on the IdenTrust cross-sign. One way out is to install Firefox, which has its own root store and doesn't rely on the OS root store. I wonder if @floobydust could use this option on his older iPad.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2020, 05:27:35 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 25, 2020, 08:39:36 pmFrankly I don't give a shit about the motivations of the people behind Wikipedia, not even the slightest bit. It's a useful way to quickly find information on any number of topics though, some of it better quality than others and some interesting reading.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2020, 05:34:29 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 25, 2020, 08:53:43 pmI absolutely understand the reasons behind having encryption on the internet, what I don't understand is why anyone would care about wikipedia traffic. If somebody wants to intercept what I'm reading about on wikipedia they can go right ahead, if we're talking about my email or banking that's another matter.I'll move along when I wish to, on my terms, fuck any smug fart sniffing asshole who tries to force me. I've got some state of the art technology and I've got other stuff with vacuum tubes that I still use. I've been around long enough to see that newer isn't always better. If I could go back to the circa 2005 internet I'd do so in a heartbeat. No social media, none of these websites that won't even load without tens of megabytes of javascript and useless cruft. They worked better, they had higher information density and less bloat, it was a superior experience.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2020, 10:03:25 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 29, 2020, 05:34:29 amYou don't see the point, others do. They'll move along as they please and the options are to partake and benefit from their free service or piss off. The world isn't going to cater to a belligerent old sod with an antiquated iPad. You're not entitled to free services.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2020, 10:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 29, 2020, 05:27:35 amIf you don't care to know the reason, then don't go questioning why they've switched to encrypted connections."Y dey so stoopid?" —  — "LALALALA I DON'T WANNA HEAR IT!"

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2020, 10:16:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 29, 2020, 05:34:29 amImagine you're in China and are looking up the behaviour of your government. Would you not want encryption to stop the Chinese government from seeing what you are looking at?Okay, you are probably not so worried about your government, but there are 'free' governments that have done dodgy things with the internet, too.For instance in the UK, there was a proposal to ban all adult content from the internet, unless the user opted in with their ISP or could prove via an active credit card that they were over 18 years old. This would be performed at the ISP and not on the router itself for reasons never justified by the government. Their proposal for doing this would be via deep packet inspection. Who knows what the government would do with that data if it were available to them - I highly doubt it would be exclusively used to stop people looking at nudity.Thankfully, the technical complexity of this, and industry reluctance, plus some press scandals over how it would work, led to it being dropped, but it was very close to getting thoroughly implemented (less than a month away before it was scrapped for good.)Encrypted HTTPS connections, and later, encrypted DNS (DNS-over-HTTPS or some other technology) will prevent any ISP or government from seeing what you are doing without having a direct exploit on your device. This is a good move for the internet, even if you live in a fairly free country like the USA. It's a good move for privacy and it has benefits for people living in countries with totalitarian governments.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2020, 01:03:21 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 29, 2020, 10:16:00 pmThis is all assuming that HTTPS is 100% safe... - I believe it is safe against "ordinary" hackers, but is it also safe against well resourced snoopers e.g. governments and the like?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2020, 04:05:33 am
content: When I saw wikipedia start messing with the style I went to the archive.org, fetched the old stylesheets, and replaced it on the pages using my proxy server. A lot of wasted effort on their part, they must've run out of actually useful things to do...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2020, 06:40:07 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 29, 2020, 10:16:00 pmYes, and I'd use an encrypted VPN to somewhere else as I already do any time I'm interested in any sort of actual privacy.That still doesn't explain the benefit of mandatory encryption. So scenario 1, there's an encrypted path and an unencrypted path, users can connect to either one, user who cares about encryption connects to the encrypted path. Big evil totalitarian government doesn't want people using the encrypted path so they block it, unencrypted path is still available to those willing to take chances, and for those in places where there is nothing to worry about.Or scenario 2, only encrypted path is available. Big evil totalitarian government doesn't want people using the encrypted path (which is the only connection available) so they block it and those citizens are locked out, as is anyone else who can't use the encryption for one reason or another. So much better I guess?Either way I don't care one bit what the Chinese government does internally. It's their country and their business, none of mine. If the Chinese citizens don't like it then it's up to them to rise up and do something about it. My country has a long history of meddling in the affairs of others and crusading around pushing our culture and values and it has brought us trouble to no end.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2020, 06:44:39 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on November 30, 2020, 01:03:21 amI would bet money that it's not. There are all kinds of back doors for the US government at least and I can only assume that the governments of other developed nations have talent and infrastructure available to make short work of cracking just about any encryption available to the masses. Prism or whatever that was called was exposed but I think it's safe to assume that was only the tip of the iceberg.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2020, 08:06:46 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 29, 2020, 05:34:29 amI can give you one very good reason. Malicious code injection in scripts and images.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2020, 01:46:23 am
content: Injection and attacks aside, there is the fundamental concept of "what I read is none of your fucking business". I fail to see the distinction between my traffic being intercepted for scrutiny vs. walking up to a stranger on the bus, bending the book they are reading towards you and say "I want to see what you are reading". It's super intrusive, and in fact the former situation is a lot worse, because electronic information can be easily scrutinised by arbitrary number of faceless people and retained forever.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2020, 09:01:07 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 30, 2020, 06:40:07 amWell exactly. The totalitarian government can no longer pretend they are not blocking the free exchange of information.There is no pretending to be the good guy any more.Quote from: james_s on November 30, 2020, 06:40:07 amHow exactly is mandatory encryption "messing in the affairs" of others?It has benefits for US ISP customers too because it means that net neutrality is effectively preserved, when it is no longer possible to determine who is prepared to pay for a given packet. And, it'll stop that bullshit where Comcast, et al., inject ads into error pages (and in some cases,actual *frickin* pages, to entice you to buy a new modem...)You can have a view of the world that includes people beyond those living in the luxury of free countries like us.Quote from: james_s on November 30, 2020, 06:44:39 amIf you have an exploit that can break RSA, then you will be an incredibly rich man.There are vulnerabilities in very specific implementations (for instance OpenSSL) but RSA itself appears to be unbreakable - without solving the prime factorisation problem.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2020, 06:17:06 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 29, 2020, 05:34:29 amThe issue is not "I don't care if people can see what I'm reading on Wikipedia", the issue is that when you connect to a web site without using encryption (http vs https), there is no guarantee of integrity. This means that you can't tell if someone (your ISP or the CIA/NSA/FBI/DOD/LOL) between you and that site has changed the site, possibly removing parts of it (censorship) or adding some malicious javascript to run in your browser. If the bad guys exploit a flaw in your browser, they actually could get banking information from another tab in your browser by messing with the code in Wikipedia. Encryption protects against this.I wanted a rude usernameandEd.Kloonkalready addressed this.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 02:18:42 pm
content: I was looking at the article again and noticed this:https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements#What_features_will_be_addedQuoteIt feels disorienting and disconnected:It feels To whom and what? The users, volunateers or the person/editors writing that?Navigation and interface links are organized haphazardly?It looks fine to me.Search for content:Well I have never had any problems reading stuff on there.Many readers are not aware that the content they are reading is written by volunteers and updated frequently:I simply click ontalkhistory to see the changes.New editors are unable to use their intuition to set up their account?I never really edit things from Wikipedia but I was able to set one up quickly to add to the feedback.A very small percentage of readers understand how Wikimedia wikis function.Is this true? I go there to read stuff, sometimes I see things are added or removed and see who changes the articles and so on.Not consistent with mobe apps?No I don't want it to look like a mobile version on my desktop with a big blooming toolbar stuck over the contents and the white spaces.I use desktop version to avoid what I think I am seeing as bloat.QuoteSo they have looked at other wiki's, found what they think is useful and want to make it thedefault experiencewhilst altering the interface. A certain skin or might not have stuff on it like other wiki's but the interface may include those unwanted things. Is that that they want to change the interface and force me to to see something for a mobile version?Is this contradicting the first sentences about skins an vectors when changing the interface?It is challenging for readers to focus on the contentNever had ANY PROBLEMS with it ever.is cluttered and not intuitive.Cluttered? Are they joking? Joke:Cluttered with what?Useful text relevant to the content (as it is now) and no with bloated UI graphics, fixed headers and widgets, white spaces and other crap I don't want stuck over it as an increasing rise I am seeing with modern websites.If this was the case why didn't I hear complaints about this over the past two decades.Maybe I am not looking in the right places.What do you think of that?I don't know, some of it sounds like bulshit to me like that the readers finding it difficult to read articles despite their being skins and templates they can choose from but correct me if you think I am wrong.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 11:27:34 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 09, 2020, 02:18:42 pmI worked as a professional interface designer for a few years (and have been interested in UX for forever), and I agree with you. I perused the design experiments on the page you linked, and I think most of them make it worse.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 01:42:14 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on November 30, 2020, 01:03:21 amGovernments issue certificates, so no. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea, just that there are important caveats.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:31:15 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2020, 01:42:14 amYou may be referring tothe DigiNotar attack, which spurred the development ofCertificate Transparency, a distributed system to detect such fraudulent certificates. You are right though, there is still a caveat: they would not be detected immediately, providing an attacker a window of time in which to learn everything about their target before the trickery was revealed ...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 03:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on December 12, 2020, 04:31:15 amI was referring to Kazakhstan's somewhat hamfisted attempt to abuse certificates to listen in on people. The main issue is that certificate authority trust is almost absolute, which means that the ability to issue certificates or exert power over issuing parties in the wrong hands leads to all kinds of unpleasant consequences. Even when the technology is safe, it doesn't always mean your data is.https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/what-is-root-certificate/

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 10:35:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2020, 03:51:09 pmYes. And none of the proposed alteratives (chain of trust, blockchain, etc.) have worked out ... we only have mitigations (and many of those turn out also to be unacceptable ... look at certificate pinning).It's much like with state-issued ID ... it becomes more important and pervasive each year, and acquiring it becomes more onerous.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2021, 11:50:47 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on November 23, 2020, 10:45:47 pmHmm.I guess with 450 staff on an average salary of 120KUSD, youneedto refresh the website at least once a decade, in some vain attempt to look like you are worth the donated money.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundationhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 04:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on July 25, 2021, 11:50:47 amGiven the sheer scale at which Wikipedia operates, I think their budget is fairly modest. I don't agree with any of the malfeasance you insinuate.

author: Mark
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 10:14:00 am
content: QuoteMental right-click and "add to dictionary".

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 03:32:30 am
content: Just checking out Wikimedia and I find I got a reply a year late from 2021.https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:Wiqquepvymt169bu&topic_showPostId=wj5z6jebkk6dgh46&fromnotif=1#flow-post-wj5z6jebkk6dgh46QuoteQuote*Good.I find nothing diverse about forcing users to have their viewing bombarded by unwanted things that get in the way and serve as a distraction.I take the same offense as to what malware use to do to my customers back over a decade ago with installing browser toolbars and injecting things over whatever webpage they were looking at.I hope they keep their word contrary to what I find here:https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features/Sticky_HeaderQuoteI think this sums it up:QuoteQuoteI wonder are they calling their users lazy? that need something stuck constantly whether they want or not.What do you think?