Why the persistent need for volatile memory? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 05:23:06 pm
content: My smart TV was sold in 2016 and it still loses some of its settings whenever there is a power failure. Other settings remain unaffected. I don't get this. Hasn't solid state memory advanced past volatility long ago? Why is volatile memory still a thing in appliances like this? I understand the need in something like a computer, but not in a machine with small amounts of memory.I don't believe explanations that involve "cost." That seems like a lame excuse for cutting quality. The cost of components has fallen to minuscule levels. I suspect there some tricky marketing reason for this. Prove me wrong.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 05:38:57 pm
content: Smart TVs mostly run Lunux-based OSes. They use regular files and some things may not reach the storage and be stored in RAM buffers.There is no real excuse, modern software on devices like this is mostly shit cobbled together. And they don't really care, because what are you gonna do? You already gave them your money.Cost of components falling down is exactly the reason. You can have fully-featured Linux computer for less than $10. If this was a much weaker MCU, it would have likely saved your settings into EEPROM immediately on change without caching.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 05:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on September 04, 2021, 05:23:06 pmNot cost of parts. Cost of development. It's not even really the time to write the code, it is the design work to make these issues a priority. These devices have plenty of non-volatile memory for any settings they need to store, but basically if it works well enough to get through a cnet review it gets shipped.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 05:53:48 pm
content: I guess one potential advantage is that volatile memory is wiped when it loses power so if something gets into a bad state you can easily wipe it and start fresh. That doesn't make software bugs any less annoying but at least it helps you work around them. I agree that it's stupid for settings on a TV to be volatile, but then I would argue that the entire concept of a "smart" TV is utterly stupid. It is taking something that should have a design life of 20 years and fusing it with something that has a design life of 2 years. There is no reason to integrate the "smart" bits into the TV vs having a little box that plugs into the HDMI port and provides that functionality. The hardware these days is small enough that it can fit in a little stick that doesn't take up extra space or have a bunch of cables. I don't even want a TV, I want a monitor with a bunch of HDMI ports. My 8 year old TV has never had a cable connected to the antenna jack, I don't even know if the tuner works, I've never tried it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 05:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on September 04, 2021, 05:50:39 pmAn attitude has spread like cancer throughout the software industry that since everything is connected to the net now, just ship the "minimum viable product" now and then fix all the problems "later" when people complain about it. No need for proper QA, just let the customers test it and fix the stuff that generates the most support calls. Of course a major problem with this is that developing the latest new model always takes priority over fixing bugs with the stuff that was already sold. The constant stream of updates is also something I find highly annoying, I really hate sitting down to use some device and finding I have to sit and wait for it to update, and half the time they make UI changes that make it worse, or just cause me to spend time getting used to something new for no particular benefit. I hate change for the sake of change.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 06:37:18 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 04, 2021, 05:53:48 pm(RL: Bold added to quote)"Design life of 20 years..." You have to be kidding. Things are made so bad these days I think 2 years should be consider doing well...- I replaced my 20+ years old dish washer not so long ago. Within the first year, the control board failed. I ordered the part and replaced it myself.- My clothing washer of slightly younger but still > 20 years has a rusted bucket and was replaced. Within the first 90 days, the water intake plastic piping started leaking. This one was repaired under warranty.- About 5 years back, I replaced the drier. A bit over one year later, the heater element failed. I repaired it myself and it has lasted at least till now. Now the motor is beginning to make noise, and timer (for auto-dry) is occasionally sticking and wont advance.My 20+ year old refrigerator is failing. The thermostat occasionally stuck and wont turn on unless I knock the cover a bit - like knocking a door but needs only one knock. I am considering replacement but I think if I can replace find a replacement thermostat for it, this old clunker may out-last any new one I can buy...Indeed stuff these days has more features, but they are not making these for the long haul. It is fancy looking and shinny, but more for looking than for using; and they seem to be in a hurry to get to the landfills.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 06:41:28 pm
content: In some cases it's a feature that functionality is lost when power is disconnected. Think car radios and navigation systems that are theft-prone. Unfortunately, this is not enough to deter thieves, and often the release code is on a sticker underneath the ashtray/cupholder.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 06:54:27 pm
content: Anything that affects the bottom line is considered at the management level. If there's more money to be made on parts and replacement, it will happen. The words, "planned obsolescence" are never spoken anywhere.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 07:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 04, 2021, 06:37:18 pmOften it makes sense to replace white goods, which are over 20 years old, because newer models have to meet higher efficiency standards, which save money in the long run. On the other hand if they don't last much longer than the warranty, then it makes sense to keep old things and is probably better for the environment. It's a dilemma.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 08:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 04, 2021, 07:13:02 pmSo far, all the "white goods" have been replace except for the refrigerator and perhaps the gas oven unless you also count the HVAC. So far, every one of them failed far sooner than expected. May be I have the reverse Midas Touch. They turned into poop instead of gold.I am probably above-average skills in comparison to average home owners. None of these stuffs are not friendly to disassembly let alone to repair. May be I am under-estimating average home owners. Having done those repair work, I think average home owners probably would not be able to replace the controller PCB in the dish waster, nor the heat element in a clothing drier. Had the clothing washer piping failed another few weeks later instead of while in warranty, average home owner probably can't repair that either. Getting a new one is not that much more than paying for a repair person and parts. So a good number of these will head to the landfills.The efficiency gain has to be considered dust-to-dust: from acquiring the material to manufacture, to proper disposal at the items end of live. I think the efficiency gain is out stripped by the short live cycle. Even for the toilets, the water-efficient toilets requires multiple flushing whereas the old one just needed a single flushing most of the time.Like every CEO, we are looking at the short term and superficial gains but forgetting to include the entire picture. I think we just may be fooling ourselves in thinking we are saving anything with these short live cycle products. Then again, this is just my gut-feel. I have no numbers to back that up.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 09:47:53 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on September 04, 2021, 05:23:06 pmWell, this thread has gone off in the wrong directionIf the TV is losing settings that are supposed to be persistent, that's because of buggy code, or possibly a hardware failure. It has nothing to do with what kind of memory it uses.But to answer your question, no, there is no nonvolatile memory technology that can replace DRAM in a smart TV. Why do you think that there is?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2021, 11:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 04, 2021, 06:37:18 pmA 2 year lifespan for a major appliance is something consumers should never accept. My TV is 8 years old and going strong, that said it was broken when I got it so I fixed it and it has been fine since then. My washer and dryer are at least 15 years old and they are the original Maytag Neptune models that were notorious for failing, got the washer for free, fixed it and paid $50 for the dryer, I put new bearings in the washer about 6 years ago and new rollers in the dryer last year. My refrigerator is nearly 20 years old and has never had a problem. My dishwasher was given to me brand new about 15 years ago when someone bought a house with new appliances and wanted stainless ones. My microwave is about 15 years old, got that for free and fixed a cracked solder joint, no problems since then. My kitchen stove is about 10 years old, no problems with that. My heat pump is one I bought over 15 years ago for just a few hundred bucks because it had been damaged by a forklift, I installed it myself and it has worked perfectly all this time, had to replace the motor capacitor a few years ago but no other problems. I expect stuff to last a long time and typically it does in my hands. It doesn't bother me too much if something breaks down or requires maintenance at some point but I certainly would be upset if I didn't get AT LEAST 10 years out of something before I couldn't reasonably repair it and 20 years for something major like a refrigerator or TV is not unreasonable in my mind.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 12:07:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 04, 2021, 11:56:50 pmYou and I (and some if not many here) are of a different generation. Kids these days are conditioned to accept things many of us here would not have believed if presented to us a decade ago...We are dinosaurs.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 12:08:47 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 04, 2021, 07:13:02 pmThe efficiency improvements have come in waves and affect some things more than others. Refrigerators got new insulation and other improvements around 30-40 years ago and haven't changed much since then. Dishwashers haven't really changed much, (American) clothes washers and dryers remained virtually identical under the skin from about the early 1950s up into the 90s, front loaders became common and brought a significant efficiency gain but the improvements since then have been incremental. HVAC stuff improved significantly between the 70s and 80s but then didn't change much, then sometime in the late 90s high efficiency condensing furnaces and boilers started to appear, once they got up into the 93+ efficiency range there hasn't been any room for more than incremental improvements. AC and heat pumps used essentially the same components from the 1950s through the present, the gradual efficiency gains have come from just using larger coils relative to the size of the compressor with the very latest high tech units benefiting from VFDs to control the speed of the compressor and fans. A lot of people think they are getting a big efficiency boost when they replace appliances but unless they are replacing one that is decades old or needing to be replaced anyway for other reasons, most of the energy savings if there are any are going to be offset by the higher cost of purchase and maintenance. Most of the environmental benefits are going to be offset by the cost of scrapping existing equipment and building new ones. Some of the raw materials do get recycled but not as effectively as many people think. Most recycled materials are much lower grade than new virgin material. Your old refrigerator will probably end up turning into re-bar or garden tools or something, plus a lot of plastic and foam in the landfill or an incinerator in China. The new one will be made out of mostly virgin resources.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 12:23:36 am
content: While I agree about the desired service life of white goods, TVs may not qualify as white goods anymore. I say this because the cost of TVs has fallen so much relative to minimum wage that they are moving into the disposable goods category. Back in the 60s a TV might cost 100 or more times the minimum wage. Today a TV with comparable screen size (and vastly superior features in almost every other measure) can be had for well under 10 times minimum wage.While I find the prices of refrigerators, freezers, washers and dryers shocking, the are really not terribly out of line with general inflation.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 12:36:46 am
content: The cost of white goods is not all that out of line with inflation, but if they are failing after only a few years that certainly is. When I was growing up I knew lots of people who had 20 or even 30 or more year old washers and dryers. That stuff was expensive, but it lasted a long time and if it broke down people hired someone to repair it. A lot of stuff is frankly much too cheap now which makes it not economical to service. The purchase price does not reflect the actual total cost to society and the planet.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 02:31:03 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 05, 2021, 12:36:46 amI totally agree with your observation. I was merely pointing out that TVs are on a different trajectory than the others. Those have stayed high priced and lost reliability (at least in many cases). Making the value proposition ugly. TVs have dropped in price, and while they have also dropped in reliability they were lower to start with and the value proposition is not changed as much.

author: viperidae
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 03:08:04 am
content: I wouldn't be surprised if the filesystem was mounted as read only. Using cheap flash isn't cheap if the device needs to be recalled because it failes due to write endurance issues, just ask Tesla.Your system will be much more stable if you only write settings to an eeprom when they change and mount the filesystem read-only. Only mount writable when doing updates.As a bonus, "turning it off and on again" fixes most problems.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 03:18:07 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on September 04, 2021, 05:23:06 pmIf you want a rational discussion, try putting forward some reasoned and well constructed arguments rather than throwing out a bunch of "stream of consciousness" flamebait.Also, it's not up to us to "prove you wrong", it's up to you to construct an argument to attempt to demonstrate you're right and then ask for the point to be debated.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 03:50:14 am
content: There is the possibility that your non-volatile settings are held up with a coin-cell, or supercap.Both theseshouldlast more than two years with regular power cycles, but manufacturer cost cutting could cut that down too.