EEVblog #824 - GW Instek GDS-1000B Oscilloscope Teardown - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2015, 11:07:11 pm
content: Inside the new GW Instek GDS-1000B series entry level low cost oscilloscope. Both the GDS-1054B and the GDS-1104BWhat is the main mystery processor?It is lower cost than the Rigol DS1054Z, how does it compare?And a look at a SinX/X display processing anomaly that was discovered.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 01:30:58 am
content: Thank you for the review.According to the user manual, theSearch, Set/Clear and arrowsbuttons havenofunction.I like the high quality capacitors. This scope is basic and cheaply made, but it might work for 10+ years.

author: BloodyCactus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 01:33:18 am
content: very interesting. i poked around its datasheets and manuals, nowhere did I see any form of decoding mentioned4 channels and no basic i2c/spi/can decoding...interesting tho it has pal/secam/hdtv video triggering built in... odd.theres an option in menu to display QR codes that will take you to I guess different instek websites.. bizarre.unless decoding is an app.. there are apps for DVM, data log, digital filter, go no-go...hmmm.. doh...

author: thomastheo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 01:49:51 am
content: It's insane how integrated these reasonably well-specced scopes are getting. It's only the user interface and the analog front end that's limiting the size of these now. It basically comes down to competent software implementation, and it wouldn't surprise me if that's where a major part of the cost is going in the production and development of these models. In this case I suppose that's where they skimped the most...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 01:52:02 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on November 28, 2015, 01:30:58 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 01:53:53 am
content: Quote from: BloodyCactus on November 28, 2015, 01:33:18 amThat's badI have not looked at the manual and specs or used really used it.

author: mcs_5
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 01:57:14 am
content: The Jamicon caps on the mainboard are from Taiwan. I don't think they are necessarily bad - I have used many Jamicons through the years, with no reliability problems.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 01:59:18 am
content: Yeah, Jamicon aren't rubbish, and those don't look to be in a high-current path either. I've no problem with the caps.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 02:01:46 am
content: GDS-1000B is just a competitor for Tektronix TBS1000B. A very basic scope.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 02:04:59 am
content: A probe storage bag would have been a handy addition and they certainly had the room for one, it would have been a nice place to hide important stuff like chocolate bars and other valuables.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 02:30:37 am
content: Not half bad for a cheap scope, I wouldn't take it into the field, looks a little too fragile. Good enough for a hobbyist.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 02:34:35 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 28, 2015, 02:04:59 amWouldn't work for chocs Muttley.....not enough sheilding to stop them melting.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 02:38:48 am
content: Peanuts !

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 02:41:59 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 28, 2015, 02:38:48 amJust not chocolate covered ones.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 04:52:50 am
content: Looks pretty okay for the price. I didn't like the pale yellow background color on the front panels, but it's much better looking overall than the DS1054z, a lot less of the unnecessary "noise and confusion" that Rigol seems to like.

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 05:10:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2015, 01:52:02 amMy guess is that these are there for future apps to use, the 3 current apps don't use them. I'll bet that they have a decoding app in the works that might make use of these.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 05:17:57 am
content: Quote from: rdl on November 28, 2015, 04:52:50 amThe DS1054Z does look much "busier" but the GW looks like they intended to use a big LCD but decided against it and used a big bezel instead - gives it a very cheap look.Overall I see nothing that would indicate it should be chosen over the Rigol - the 1054Z still seems like much better value.

author: jwm_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 05:56:17 am
content: Hrm. The iec power connector is positioned so you can't set it flat on its back, that is too bad. Maybe room for a battery pack in there and it looks like it might be a nice portable scope.Now what would be neat is putting a vesa mount on the back so you can connect it to a swinging monitor arm to position above your workspace and push aside when not using it. Heck a dual monitor kne with the scope on one arm and my actual computer monitor on the other seems like it would be great on my workbench.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 06:42:02 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on November 28, 2015, 05:17:57 amThe way the buttons are set back from the edge of the screen makes it look ready to drop in a 9 or 10" display as a deluxe option.

author: SteveLy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 07:04:21 am
content: Does it have intensity graded mode like the DS1054Z?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 07:17:31 am
content: Fan probably could be moved back further in the case, or replaced with a thinner ( though more expensive) one and this would improve airflow. Shielding cover, even a flexible copper foil card covered one, on the power supply would be a nice thing, would probably get half of the noise in the open input channels down. Wonder how much the noise would drop if you simply used 4 terminators on the inputs and looked again. Would have been even nicer if they had conformed to the IEC spec on the earth wire connector, blue is not the right colour for a PE conductor, it should be a green/yellow striped one. But then, a good looking PSU, good components and a fairly good layout, though they could have put in the fuse as well, not just leave it down to a necked trace to be the fuse.As to making it VESA mountable, just buy a VESA mount kit ( the cheap one for TV sets with thin steel arms) and modify the spider bracket to fit the scope back and attach permanently, though you will need to drill the 4 holes to fit it. Otherwise just a flat old TV stand and cut it down to sit the scope on it.

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 07:24:38 am
content: The power supply has a fuse...the square reddish/brown colored component soldered to the pc board next to the blue wire from the IEC320 C14 inlet and the green colored inrush current limiter. It would have been nice to see a larger field replaceable 1/4x1-1/4" or a 5x20mm cartridge fuse instead but that would have added a small amount to the cost of the power supply. [Tip for GW Instek: IEC320 C14 inlets with a built-in 5x20mm cartridge fuseholder don't cost much more than a plain C14 inlet...]Nippon KMG series capacitors are a general purpose series, so they aren't low ESR or long life, but I would expect them to last at least 10 years or so and likely far outlast the typical 1-2 year service life Shenzhen market specials a lot of PSU assemblers seem to use. That said, a second glance shows they are using KY series capacitors for the secondary filters, which are low ESR and long life rated parts, so even though I'm not a huge fan of Nippon, I'd say this power supply isn't badly designed at all.

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 07:36:19 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 28, 2015, 07:17:31 amThe blue wire is line/mains and not an earth wire.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 08:20:16 am
content: Quote from: Tothwolf on November 28, 2015, 07:36:19 amNeutral here in NZ.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 09:16:55 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 28, 2015, 02:04:59 amYep, good idea.

author: Stupid Beard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 09:41:28 am
content: I know you mentioned it in passing and likely nobody cares, but neon is the arm implementation ofSIMD. It is used a lot for vector math amongst other things. Whether they are actually using it for anything I couldn't say.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 10:50:38 am
content: Similar to the last teardown of the signal generator, the mains supply is using a PCB connection for the earthing except this time we get a good look at it. I'm not sure that meets worldwide requirements for protective bonding, and would at least fail the Australian requirements for PCB earthing traces to be doubly redundant. The trace shown in the video also looks like its marginal to pass the earth bonding test, would you pass 30A through it for one minute for our entertainment?The Zynq used is the baby of the family, though for the same price you might be surprised how much performance softcores can provide.

author: k2teknik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 11:10:38 am
content: There is some app for download onhttp://www.gwinstek.com/en-global/products/Oscilloscopes/Digital_Storage_Oscilloscopes/GDS-1000BDVM, digital filter and datalog App is the options right now, maybe they will release some info on how to make you own app's?

author: mux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 11:19:46 am
content: Just going by back-of-the-envelope product pricing:The scope is $350, i.e. about $140-175 BOM through typical retailersThe ZYNQ is $60, the hittite ADC is $50 (both octopart 1ku pricing)How do they get the rest of the BOM, including mechanicals, down to $50? That's insane!

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 11:27:06 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 28, 2015, 08:20:16 amWith the orientation they used for the C14 inlet, the pins are X, G, and W. X is hot/service, G is ground, and W is neutral. The blue wire is connected to X and looks like it might be jumpering X to the fuse.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 11:51:39 am
content: Quote from: mux on November 28, 2015, 11:19:46 amIts insane to think that serious buyers of the ZYNQ and Hittite ADC pay those prices when they negotiate for the supply of thousands per annum.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 12:14:19 pm
content: Quote from: Tothwolf on November 28, 2015, 11:27:06 amIf that is carrying mains directly then the product fails the Australian standards for certain just on that. Looks like there might be a product investigation in the near future for the importers of these.

author: mux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 12:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 28, 2015, 11:51:39 amSure, they'll go down a _bit_, but they're not paying $20 a pop or anything. These chips are expensive even in 10k or 100k quantities. It's a common fallacy to think that component prices, even on individual contracts, go down by a lot. In reality, you're never going to get more than low double-digit discounts.Source: good relationship with the sourcing guy at a former company I consulted for.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 12:27:42 pm
content: Quote from: mux on November 28, 2015, 12:23:02 pmLow value chips don't drop much in price for 10k or 100k. You have to buy millions to see good prices. Chips that never sell in millions, because they are more niche in nature, generally fall in price at more modest volumes.

author: mux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 12:48:00 pm
content: Alright, say that they halve. There's still:- A reasonable quality 30W power supply- An LCD- A bunch of reasonable quality rotary encoders- Bunch of metalwork- Bunch of assembly (that's definitely not badly done)I'm just amazed how they can squeeze that out of a $350 product. I've seen plenty of $350 street price products that have a lot less guts and smarts in them. Somebody did an awesome sourcing job on this.

author: Barny
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 01:06:04 pm
content: Will there be an detailed video abaut the scope?Pherhapes a little compare to the Rigol scope?I will replace my two channel 150MHz 5000 serie Rigol.The old big brick with its small b/w screen start to annoy me.

author: djQUAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 02:47:27 pm
content: I have a possible explanation for the separate processor and front end boards.The processor board is a high tolerance PCB with better specifications (drill accuracy, clearances, trace widths etc) and is generally more expensive. This is necessary for the BGA package. It can be 4 layer or even 6 layer.Making the entire huge PCB in this spec is very expensive so they made it into a small sub board and used a cheaper lower spec board with less copper layers for the huge interface boards.

author: JackM
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 04:00:23 pm
content: I'd still choose the Rigol DS1054Z over this. The GWinstek just falls a bit short in a bit too many areas versus the 1054Z, enough to push me towards the Rigol. It's nice to see competition in this area though.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 06:12:16 pm
content: Seems like far-east scope manufactureres really like the HMCAD1511 ADC these days: Rigol DS1054Z, Siglent 1000X and the Instek 1000B. I'm wondering why they didn't start using this one earlier. It's by far the cheapest 1GSa/s ADC. Maybe because it requires an FPGA that does 8×1Gbit/s SERDES?I really like the simplistic design of this DSO, it won't get much simpler than frontend + ADC + FGPA/SOC.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 07:01:21 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 28, 2015, 12:14:19 pmSounds like Dave needs to recheck this, no it would not meet standards here either.4 screws and 2 tabs and we'll know for sure.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 10:07:54 pm
content: According to the user manual, there is noTrigger Outputavailable at GDS-1000B.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 11:17:26 pm
content: what would really make this a competition killer:Toss out the little lcd and the me u buttons around it. Make that whole grey area around the lcd, the new lcd area. And make it a touch screen.The rubber buttons areound the lcd are gone. If you pull up a menu they slide in, touc to activate.Touch screens cost next to nothing. Larger lcds are also a dime a dozen.Leave the roatry encoders and buttons in that area as they are. No need for pop up windows or pinch to zoom. Just a simple zone touch to reclaim the wasted area for the menu buttons around the lcd.You would not need the pcb area for the buttons, would need the rubber button molding. And it would have an ipad mini sized screen. Something in the 1280x600 resolution...It would add 10$ tops to the bom...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 11:33:31 am
content: Just stumbled on this Xilinx article on GW using the Zynq - rather buzzword heavyhttp://www.xilinx.com/publications/prod_mktg/zynq7000/goodwill-casestudy.pdf

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 11:40:57 am
content: Quote from: mux on November 28, 2015, 11:19:46 am$54 1-off at Digikey.I doubt they're paying more than $15-20. real-world FPGA pricing in any qty bears little resemblance to advertised prices once you get into the wierd world of "supported pricing".In the past I've had quotes for less than half DK prices for just 100x

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 11:43:43 am
content: I suspect a reason for the seperate processor PCB is that it can be used in multiple products - remember it's not limited to scopes - could easily be the basis of a powerful AWG, or even a spectrum analyser with different analogue board.This architecture, maybe with a more integrated front-end, could be the basis for a pretty small portable scope.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 04:19:06 pm
content: Now if only someone could do something similar with a frontend+adc+fpga design to make a low cost ($500) khz-1Ghz Spectrum Analyzer for the hobbyist market.This model probably works ok for the price, but what I came away with is that it really does show how much Rigol really seems to "do things right" as best they can for the price and I am that much more appreciative of what sort of engineering and build quality I got for the money I paid for my DS1074z.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 04:59:01 pm
content: I suspect the reason it's split in two PCBs is cost driven. They may even be able to get away with a 2-layer PCB for the analog front end and ADC section. If you have few traces on the bottom layer then you can make it all ground plane and hit the required trace impedance. The controller is probably a 6/8 layer PCB so quite expensive.IIRC, the DS1054Z series is implemented on just a 4-layer PCB, given the high performance it's pretty surprising they can manage that.

author: MBY
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 05:47:15 pm
content: Quote from: mcs_5 on November 28, 2015, 01:57:14 amYes! Maybe Jamicon isn't a brand to compare with Nippon Chemi-con, but I was surprised by Dave not having heard of Jamicon or call them "not a name brand". They are certainly okay and decent all-purpose capacitors and the brand is well established for decades. I've also used Jamicon for years with no problem whatsoever. Jamicon is *not* (well, to my knowledge) a "Wun Hung-Lo" company with made up optimistic parameters in their datasheets. If a datasheet says "100 mOhm @ 100 kHz ESR", it probably is 100 mOhm at 100 kHz or better... I've seen Jamicon caps (and fans) in gears and computers from the eighties and onwards. Price is often mid-range.Edit: As for the scope. I wasn't impressed and I share Daves view in that the scope is ugly and bulky. I really liked the layout of the knobs and buttons, but there is no reason to space everything out. Surely they could have the same basic layout but in a form factor more like Rigols 1104z...

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 06:02:44 pm
content: The race to the bottom continues. How many ultra-low cost entry level scopes does the industry need? GW is only making a few dollars off each after distribution. Why bother?Sent from mobile device.... Keeping it short and mis-spelled

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 06:55:50 pm
content: Quote from: nixfu on November 29, 2015, 04:19:06 pmYou got Crapxons in your shielded PSU, so It's questionable which is of better quality. Really don't see anything seriously wrong with instek, there is no reason to make PSU with 2 layers PCB.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 08:15:39 pm
content: No shielding=========Is there really no metal shielding in this scope, like you have in the Rigol and Siglent scopes?In the Rigol and Siglent scopes, the shielding is massive, and you have to take it out, to even see a glimpse of the PCB board.Also no shielding for the PSU itself. Why haven't they looked at Rigol and Siglent?While the front-end input channels have shielding on the top PCB board, there is no shielding on the bottom of the PCB board for the front-end input channels? Is this really okey?This scope looks like a toy, without any shielding!Xilinx Zynq XC7Z010 evaluation board===========================Could it actually be that they just tossed in a standard Xilinx Zynq XC7Z010 evaluation board in this scope?That could explain why they did not have a single PCB board! Are there any reference numbers on the processor board? I could recognize DS16P02A in the video, but there might be other reference numbers on it.Taiwan versus China===============What happened with Taiwanese companies delivering better quality than Chinese companies?The way it is put together, with missing screws, and plastic posts that are not fixed at the other side.It seems that they have put this scope together in a similar way like the Eastern European Trabant car

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 09:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on November 29, 2015, 06:02:44 pmThe more the merrier.Seriously, how can anybody complain when it brings us things like the DS1054Z?And...watch the video: There's not much inside it. Whywouldit cost any more than $400?PS: You haven't seen the software for thing thing yet. That's what will make or break it, not the hardware. I have a feeling this will be a two-part video...

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 12:46:12 am
content: What are these plastic cylinders for?? A future expansion module for a DMM?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 01:28:29 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on November 29, 2015, 06:02:44 pmAs many as the market demands.QuoteHow do you know what margin they make?

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 01:31:58 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on November 30, 2015, 12:46:12 amInteresting. It really looks like a DMM expansion. And the slot on the left for the logic analyzer, along with 1.27mm pin headers footprint on the main PCB to connect LA frontend signals.This Zynq based architecture provides very nice integration of all the oscilloscope functions and the possibility of open source firmware development.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 01:46:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 30, 2015, 01:28:29 amI have no idea what margin they make, but when you start with $400 per unit, who cares. I assume they have all the usual manufacturing costs and distribution costs. They still have to sell huge piles of these things every month to be worth much as a business even if they have a 'good margin' whatever that may be.I am not complaining at all, since it has no effect on me at all. It is more of a business curiosity I have with the 'race to the bottom products' in niche markets. It seems odd to take on the huge costs of designing a new product with all the NRE and setup for manufacturing only to serve such a limited an price sensitive market. At the low-end, there is not much loyalty. The lowest price almost always 'wins'. Seems high risk/low reward.Just so it is said....I do own a $400 Rigol that was very nice to learn the basics of measurement without much financial risk. As a manufacturer, I always strive for a high-volume low margin OR a low volume high margin. These things seem like an odd target to have a bunch of players.

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 03:02:40 am
content: Those Jamicon caps aren't that bad. Better than CapXon, as far as I'm concerned. They don't bother me near as much as that nasty brown glue holding them down in the power supply. Seen too many boards where that stuff became conductive.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 03:14:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 30, 2015, 01:28:29 amThe market only demands a couple of really good products (more that one, just to have some competition). Further me toos just divide up the market, and make it harder to recover NRE.QuoteI doubt that margin is the key problem for most of these low cost test equipment makers. It will be volume. Get the product right, sell 10s of thousands over the several years life of the product, and your NRE is nicely covered. Sell just a few thousand, and you'll make a loss, even with a fairly good margin.

author: jwm_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 05:44:54 am
content: Tens of thousands? That seems an order of magnitude low. Over a billion dollars worth of oscilloscopes are sold a year, and these low end models are going to significantly expand the market.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 06:02:22 am
content: Quote from: jwm_ on November 30, 2015, 05:44:54 amIf you look at historical best sellers, like the Tek 465 or HP 1740, they sold a few thousand per annum (assuming figures quoted on several instrument history sites are realistic). If you look at Chinese sites reporting on the Rigol DS1000Z series, they indicate about 40k units have been sold so far, mostly over the last year. Volumes for 50MHz to 100MHz scopes seem to be considerably higher these days, but the DS1000Z has been the hit product among budget scopes. I doubt most of Rigol's competitors are seeing those volumes. How long will they be able to sustain good volumes, before spending more NRE on the next generation? Famous historic models were made for 10 years or more, but I doubt these current budget models will be. 5 years sounds more like a good lifetime. So, Rigol might ship 200k of the D1000Z. Siglent will probably ship quite a lot of their comparable scopes, too. I assume most other people will ship considerably less, but their NRE will be comparable.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 07:50:46 pm
content: I personally like the overall design of the oscilloscope - despite it may not "look" good, it is certainly much more functional than Rigol's multiplexed functions per button (namely the channel settings).Despite this, it seems the industrial design forgot that something was needed to draw heat out of the scope - the fan looks like a last-minute hackjob - although some el-cheapo power supplies such as theKoradseem to suffer from the same curse of forced air blowing to a slab.Quote from: free_electron on November 28, 2015, 11:17:26 pmFree_electron, I think you are bang on with your proposal for Instek to shake Rigol's presence in the entry level, if it wasn't for a significant factor: touch screens cost alotof software engineering hours to be implemented right. IIRC Dave reviewed an entry-level touchscreen Lecroy that was not very impressive as a gadget (or was it a R&S? Not sure).Quote from: MBY on November 29, 2015, 05:47:15 pmI was surprised as well. I have several devices with Jamicon caps working continuously for several years (some operating cold, some very hot). Haven't spot a problem yet.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 09:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 30, 2015, 07:50:46 pmThe Rigol has lots of weird layout/design choices.eg. The trigger section 'mode' button and LEDs above it are completely redundant. I always use the big chunky "Run/Stop" and "Single" buttons at the top. They also light up to tell you the current state.I'd much rather have a proper 'select' button instead of pushing the multifunction knob to select things.There's quite a bit of weirdness there. A decent UI designer could improve it a lot.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 10:22:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2015, 09:58:15 pmFunny you mentioned that. In my DS4014 I frequently push the "mode" button instead of the "menu" to adjust triggering, as it is prominently placed above the trigger level rotary button. I find myself frequently cursing at the damn button.Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2015, 09:58:15 pmI think your point of view is perfectly valid for menu navigation, but it forcefully requires additional space in the front panel - thus it is a portability trade off (you wouldn't want to cram a button in exiguous spaces).There is a thread where someone replaced the encoders with some from ALPS that required a bit more force to rotate, therefore the issue would be minimized if the right part for the job was chosen. However, others don't seem to care too much - all in all, it may be a matter of opinion.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 08:42:01 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 30, 2015, 10:22:57 pmEven better: Accept the menu selection using the same button you used to open the menu, ie. Push a menu button, turn knob to select, push the same menu button again. That's much more intuitive than pressing the knob.There's no reason why they can't do both push menu buttonorknob.While we're at it: It also makes sense to select an item inside the menu using the blue up/down buttons, ie. Push menu button to open the menu, use blue up/down buttons to highlight an item, push menu button again to select it.The multi-function knob then becomes mostly a brightness/persistence control (which is agoodthing!)Who decided that turning a knob was the correct way to make menu selections anyway?Quote from: rsjsouza on November 30, 2015, 10:22:57 pmAre you listening, Rigol...?

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 02:39:22 pm
content: I was really puzzled by the front-end differences between channels. I thought the distribution of op-amps was very odd but during the video I noticed something even weirder, I guess: there are two resistors that are only on Channel 4, and they're positioned right by the BNC. In the high-res pictures, they're not populated, but still, why?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 02:41:27 pm
content: I suspect it's not so much differences between channels, but parts randomly distributed around unused space in each channel section.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 05:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 01, 2015, 02:41:27 pmHehehe... That would potentially do wonders for interchannel crosstalk...

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 04:31:43 pm
content: Parts numbering scheme in the Channel sections: If you look closely to the part numbers, you can see that Channel 3 parts are in the 300 range, while Channel 4 parts are in the 400 range. In fact you can clearly see a 1:1 relationship in the numbers, where part 3xy in the Channel 3 section would exactly correspond to part 4xy in the Channel 4 section.Possible anomaly in the BOM structure: Given this overall logic structure on all of the parts, it does not make sense that there are 2 extra resistors in the Channel 4 section, and it could actually mean an anomaly in the BOM structure.Drop-in for Channel BOM instances: All channels are 100% drop-in duplicates where parts in Channel 1 are in the 100 range, parts in Channel 2 are in the 200 range, parts in Channel 3 are in the 300 range, and parts in Channel 4 are in the 400 range, and where 1xyz == 2xyx == 3xyz == 4xy, both part type, part value and part location.Conclusion: I don't think that this is a random distribution at all, but an actual anomaly.Is there anybody on this forum who has close contact with GW-Instek product management?It would be good to address this concern to them directly, and see what their feedback is on this matter.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 09:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 28, 2015, 11:51:39 amOnce I did an quick analysis of that.Nvidia was selling a board for 120 dollars, which had a 5AGXMA3D4F27C5N on it (gotta love the random number generated naming), which cost 530 dollars each at digikey @ 3EA.So forget those prices, they can ask any arbitrary number for it. Kinda like the naming.What surprises me, is the processor board. I could bet money on it they developed in house a breakout board, and that went into the final production. Look a the unfitted GPIO headers. Also GPIO on the top side? Why, to have the heatsink cause trouble?Also all the PCB lack any company logo or anything art... Really, silkscreen doesnt cost money.

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2015, 01:40:18 am
content: This scope is really interesting, but two things are worrying.First is the brown glue. I just worked on a nice Instek programmable power supply, and it had brown glue on the larger electrolytics which had already started to darken from heat. Fortunately, it was not touching any conductors. On the scope power supply, that nasty stuff is all over diode and other leads. I have seen too many burn marks on brown glue to like that. It probably won't have a problem during the three-year warranty, but sooner or later, it darkens, becomes conductive, and shorts.The second issue is firmware updates. The vendors need to be turning out that firmware, mostly to fix problems like the display artifacts. But the Instek web site still has the same version 1.09 from July.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:28:24 pm
content: It really seems like a bargain competitor to Rigol's successful DS1k. I do wonder though, how much more would it have cost to bump that front end to 100mhz. Purely from the marketing perspective it would have been a slam dunk. One of the most appealing thing for the Rigol is the ease at which you can unlock 100Mhz bw option.

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:25:17 pm
content: There is an update to the firmware on Instek's website, version 1.13 from January 2016 instead of the 1.09 that Dave had from July 2015. No change log, so no telling what has changed.

author: douglasfilm
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 07:35:52 am
content: Hello allFor those who are interested I purchased a version of this scope and made a youtube unboxing/ first look video.The link is:In the end the update rate is why I selected it over the other entry level scopes.I am new to oscilloscopes as well as youtube video making. (disclamer as to the quality of the video)douglasfilm

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 08:15:46 pm
content: I just figured out why this scope seem to be larger than it should be and Dave wondered why. It's enclosure is 100% same as GDS-2000E series. The only thing is different is black display bezel but display is much smaller. The only enclosure part needed to be differently manufactured is that bezel, so they can save the costs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2016, 10:29:26 am
content: It also seems the direction of the fan on the GDS-2000E and GDS-1000B is different but it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out Dave's teardown victim is from a very early production (test) run.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2016, 10:50:45 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 22, 2016, 10:29:26 amQuiet likely, in my newer GDS-2000E scope, metal chassis is a little bit different than in 1054B from teardown. And as it looks like, this newer chassis is fully compatible with both GDS-1000B and GDS-2000E. However chassis in the scope which Dave got, is not compatible with GDS-2000E because of the few PCB mounting points lacking. Dave wondered why there wasn't one screw being present, probably because there is no mounting point there on the newer chassis as this mounting point is not compatible with GDS-2000E PCB, but they already used assembly procedure for newer chassis. Regret for not taking a picture of the bare chassis. Probably there is a hole for a screw to mount that flipping in the breeze plastic spacer Dave complained about. EDIT, in a few days will get a new fan for lower noise. Likely will check this out when disassembling the scope again.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 02:28:37 pm
content: Some thoughts on critics made on this thread by others.Overall economy design: makes little difference if it does not impact measurement integrity, longevity, EMC and safety compliance. Performance testing on EEVblog #824 was not extensive, but elsewhere on eevblog forum shows both 1000B and 2000E does what its spec sheet says it does, and few bugs of concern.Hopefully the discussion will interest Dave in a shootout between 1000B and the other scopes in his lab.Longevity criteria are difficult toquantify, we can onlyqualifyits long term quality by the reputation of the manufacturer and examining the teardown.In general, GWInstek devices have a reputation for very long lifetimes, regardless of our concern for their choice of internal components or design choices.Nevertheless, the components on the PCB appear to be good quality and make. Instek devices rarely have any problems with their chassis, such as cracked knobs, or erratic rotary encoders such reported on the Rigol 1054e.The fan is in an odd place, true, but the scope remains cooler than the Rigol 1052e to touch and vents as shown in the douglasfim post video.My unit is also quieter than the Rigol 1054e.EMC and safety were done by GWInstek as CE certificates only, and GWInstek tends to live up to CE conformity. Nevertheless Lack of NRTL listing could be a problem in some workplaces due to liability, but this DSO is CAT1 device only, so there is no practical risk to users with proper use.EMC could be a problem but if it were it would appear as unintended pickup by a DUT or probe cables. A quick check of near field emissions show it highest right atop the unshielded top portion of the power supply, the highest being -50dBV rms at 60kHz.Practically speaking, if emissions were higher it be illegal to sell in the USA by FCC regulations.Concerned users can buy conductive tape, about $10 a roll, and line the interiors of the plastic rear case and ground it to improve the EMC.FWIW, the Rigol 1052e is TUV listed and has no emissions I can detect from its all metal internal chassis.As pointed out in another review, these series use a off the shelf Taiwan made Lytec PSU model lp6304 which has its own CE safety and EMC certificate.Chassis: reminds me of Keysight Infiniivision 2000 series. 2000E and 1000B series have identical basic mold. Like some Infiniivision models, there are buttons that do nothing but are cheap enough not remove during chassis assembly. As an economy move, only minor changes need be made on the mold to create a new chassis, and while distracting, the non-functional buttons do not impact performance.The overall size, being tall and wide, makes it less cramped to work fingers with and uses less bench floor space.The metal frame is mostly infront of the scope as a shield, PCB mounts and structural rigidity. It does a good shielding job, the scope lives up to its noise budget of ~500uVpp, this is at maximum gain too, with channels plugged with 50 ohm terminators and tested also with the supplied probes connected and shorted, regardless not measured with the channels left open circuit.So in summary the striking economy moves in this series are:Single mold chassis for the entire 1000B and 2000E seriesLack of third party safety and EMC certificatesReduction in metal chassis surrounding the DSO coreZync SoCoff the shelf PSU

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 07:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on June 23, 2016, 02:28:37 pmIt also enables per-channel vertical controls, a definite win for usability.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 07:41:20 pm
content: I wouldn't call an off-the-shelve PSU a downside. Keysight does the same in scopes which are much (like 50 times) more expensive. IMHO using an off-the-shelve PSU allows to benefit from the experience from others when it comes to using SMPS architectures which produce much less emissions and SMPS reliability.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2016, 12:06:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 23, 2016, 07:41:20 pmI would agree here.If you have a tried and true solution that meets or exceeds the specifications required, has proven itself in the field and is available for use, why re-invent the wheel?What comes after the PSU is where the design effort is best spent.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2016, 12:17:48 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 24, 2016, 12:06:01 amReliability.So you haven't read this thread?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/keysight-mso7034b-teardown-and-repair/

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2016, 04:53:58 am
content: I thought I covered the reliability aspect...

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2016, 11:43:45 am
content: I agree, 100%. I did not mean it negatively, rather its part of their economizing. In fact, it makes it easier to replace should it go wrong. Why redesign what someone specializes in?If one were to compare the 1000B vs the Rigols 1054Z development processes, one gets an idea the the economizing done by Rigol was to rush it to market.For GWInstek, the engineers did the cost cutting purposefully and took care that it did not affect the scopes performance.The use of the Zync SoC reduces parts count considerably, increasing its overall reliability and likely ease of fixing problems, should it happen.Another item is the disassembly of the chassis, as shown by Dave's eevblog teardown, is fairly quick and easy to get to the PSU.The Lytec supply does not have a replaceable fuse but because removing the chassis is easy its quick to get to and replace or repair, but I rarely have ever seen a PSU for a DSO malfunction except in very old devices.Quote from: nctnico on June 23, 2016, 07:41:20 pm