Eradicating Google from my online life - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 07:54:20 am
content: The Youtube ad blocker blocker debacle has tipped me over the edge and I've decided it's high time to get them out of my computers and browsing where possible.I have become quite reliant on some of their services (email, drive/photos and calendar) which worries me so I want go "back to my roots" and get my own domain, email service and perhaps online storage*.I was a Demon Internet customer right back at the start, before the web was even really a thing and I really miss the domain name, web hosting and unlimited email addresses they offered but there don't seem to be any ISPs offering reasonable facsimiles of that service (I really miss pre-Thus Demon)So, ripping open the can of worms, any recommendations from personal experience for a UK/EU based hosting company who can offer me a domain, good, reliable email service (25 or more addresses), cloud storage (let's say 200GB) and maybe a little web hosting for around £5-10 per month?*online storage might not be that important as I and a couple of family members have just got FTTH 1Gbps broadband at home so I'm playing with the idea of having a couple of NAS like devices located in their homes and mine so we can all back up our data.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 08:37:43 am
content: I have just moved web hosting to Hetzner and am quite happy so far. Favorable pricing, unlimited traffic, and their administration backend strikes a good balance between flexibility and ease of use (for my taste):https://www.hetzner.com/webhosting?country=gbIf you want cloud storage, the storage capacities included in the hosting packages are probably too small. They have separate cloud storage packages; I have no experience with these. The difference between the two flavors seems to be that one is meant for just your own use (backups via SFTP, SAMBA etc.), while the other is meant for file sharing:https://www.hetzner.com/storage/storage-boxhttps://www.hetzner.com/storage/storage-shareAll hosted in Europe (Germany and Finland).

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 08:45:13 am
content: I've used OVH now for almost a decade. Thepro web hostpackage seems to tick all your needs; I use the personal one. Aside from occasional email issues when large email services started requiring SPF DNS records (those got resolved, of course; I do now have the necessary and correct SPF DNS TXT record), it has worked quite trouble-free for me. I suspect there are even better deals or smaller companies with similarly good deals out there, but this one is good enough for my needs so I haven't bothered to look.

author: Squarewave
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 10:04:41 am
content: I'm thinking of doing the same, to minimise reliance on someone elses services. There are home network servers we can use, with sync apps which will work in the exact way as Google Drive, Google Photos etc. I think it's best to do something like this eventually, for us who can, before we end up paying hundreds of pounds per year for their services.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 10:16:13 am
content: I keep reading about this YouTube thing, and adverts on YouTube in general, but I can't say I've noticed. I have a Pi-Hole set up that uses recursive DNS searching so not only do I have a custom blacklist of sites (where the request is stopped before it leaves my home network), my DNS requests don't do through one of the large DNS repositories (another place they harvest data about you).My advice if you really want to limit the data companies get on you, and also stop a lot of adverts, is to buy a raspberry pi, connect it to your network, then follow this guide :Regarding an ISP, I have no problems with FastHosts but I am a relatively light user.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 04:10:56 pm
content: For the email I can strongly recommend FastMail. I've been using them for years. They have really good web UI that they don't constantly change for no reason like google. And they fully support normal IMAP, unlike google.You can register a domain and tie it to your FastMail account. You will get unlimited number of emails, you can just create them on demand.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 06:34:38 pm
content: Some interesting and helpful replies, lots of reading and digging to do.I do run PiHole but recently migrated ISP and have a new router so I need to reconfigure that. (Can highly recommend BRSK, FTTH, Gigabit speeds, generous Amazon voucher for referral scheme)I'm still intent on getting Alphagoo gone out out of as much of my online life as possible, the Youtube thing has been the last straw, I'm sick of being someone's product and having to pay to stop being.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 06:48:10 pm
content: You will be paying no matter what. You may just prefer to pay smaller and more focused companies, of course. Nothing with ongoing running cost is free, or at free for a long time.Also, for simple web servers, Amazon Lightsail is a great service. It is easy to setup and you just get a full SSH access to the machine with a public static IP. My bill for that ends up being $5-6/mo. But you do need to work with Amazon, which may not be ideal if you want to get rid of the giant corporations. Bit I moved to them after having horrible experiences with low end hosting providers. And Lightsail was awesome with no outages, it just works.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2023, 07:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 10, 2023, 06:48:10 pmI don't mind paying, I object to paying and being monetised, tracked, advertised to etc.I'm not keen on going to Amazon, don't mind them for work but would prefer my own money went elsewhere.Hetzner is looking really good so far.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 12:40:23 pm
content: I would generally recommend to separate domain registration and services, because that (a) makes sure you aren't limited to whatever your one provider offers and (b) you more easily can switch service providers if one fails/mistreats you/whatever.Also, with your home connection, you potentially can host services at home if that's something that you are interested in.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 01:07:08 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 10, 2023, 06:48:10 pmAlex,I am not sure, moving from Google to Amazon, is a better move. I have read morenegative reports about Amazon than Google.I do now however subscribe to YouTube Premium, since Spotify didn't want mymoney any longer ... (long story, as companies get bigger, they also get morestupid ...) And I must say, I prefer YouTube now ... bigger and better selection ...Cheers,rudi

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 01:27:04 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on November 12, 2023, 12:40:23 pmI had similar concerns, but found that transferring the hosting to a new provider was trivially easy:(a) Via your old provider's admin backend, request an "authentication code". The provider automatically requests that code from the domain registry and displays it within a couple of minutes. This is a one-time code which authorizes you (or a third party) to request changes to the domain.(b) In your new provider's admin backend, ask them to transfer the domain to their hosting service. You give them the authentication code, which they in turn provide to the registry, with the request that DNS entries are switched over to their servers. The time until DNS actually got switched over was between 30 minutes and a couple of hours in my case, and it only happened on weekdays, so there is apparently a manual step involved.Hence, I don't see the need to separate domain registration and hosting services. I have only tried this with .de domains so far, but the process is stated to be the same with .com, .net and many others. I will go through it with a .net domain next week.One thing you should make sure:Youwant to be listed as the domain owner; the service provider only serves as the Tech-C (and maybe Admin-C) contact. All honest companies who provide registration services -- whether in conjunction with hosting or stand-alone -- should handle it that way. But apparently there were/are some black sheep who try to lock you in by registering your domain in their own name.

author: M0HZH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 01:50:47 pm
content: For email you can use Zoho, they offer an extensive suite of services for business but most of them also have free plans. For hosting Amazon Lightsail is good, it can also host your email server but you need some skills to set it up. Alternatively you can host your own services entirely, something like Synology NAS + a UPS and a decent internet connection will go a long way. I've been using all these for years.But if you're looking to move away from Google, it's not possible. They're a big part of the Internet, not just email and Youtube but DNS servers, email blacklists, largest search engine, largest mobile OS, you can find it in TVs, cars etc and it's only getting bigger. You'll have to "Learn to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb", I'm afraid. It takes too much effort to avoid it, I rather pay for YT Premium and focus my energy somewere else.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 02:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 12, 2023, 01:27:04 pmYes, but for one, that assumes that the old provider cooperates. And also ...Quote from: ebastler on November 12, 2023, 01:27:04 pm.... that doesn't guarantee a seamless transition.First of all, how long the name server re-delegation takes depends on previous TTLs. If the old provider has a 24 hour TTL for NS records, for example, the switchover takes up to 24 hours.But also, there is a ton of stuff that can cause problems with that sort of switchover. For example, when you have transferred the domain to the new hoster, but some sender's outbound mail server still has the old MX record cached (again, depends on TTLs), and therefore connects to the MX of your old provider. What happens with that email? Does the old hoster reject it as undeliverable because they don't see themselves as responsible for the domain anymore? Do they accept it and put it in some IMAP folder that you can't access anymore because your account has been deactivated? ...What about outbound emails? If the target mail server still has SPF records of your domain cached, they might reject your emails or put them into the spam folder because they come from a supposedly unauthorized outbound server.And similar things for all other services that you might want to use.If you have domain registration (and DNS hosting) separate, you can easily switch over the MX to a new email provider, for example, without even telling your old provider about it, so that there is no problem with mails still arriving at the old provider, as you can just use both providers in parallel until all the old records have aged out.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 02:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: M0HZH on November 12, 2023, 01:50:47 pmBut just because you maybe can't avoid *some* google product it doesn't follow that therefore you have to feed them as much data as possible and make them into more of a monopoly than necessary.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 04:04:02 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on November 12, 2023, 01:07:08 pmI did not use google for hosting. I don't even think they have a product like this for individuals.But there is a reason why AWS runs half the internet. I tried to use smaller hosting providers and they could not even run my one page site reliably.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 04:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 12, 2023, 04:04:02 pmYour experience is not representative.Also, the reason why AWS runs half the internet probably has more to do with lock-in and incompetence on the part of customers than with their superior quality, especially relative to the price.Hetzner, to take a well-known more traditional hosting company (i.e., "pre cloud"), certainly provides reliable hosting, and that orders of magnitude cheaper. For example, Hetzner charges 1 EUR per TB of outbound traffic. AWS charges 90 USD. And Hetzner certainly aren't the only ones, and also not necessarily the best ones.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 05:12:20 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on November 12, 2023, 04:42:56 pmOk, I should clarify here. I'm aware that there are stable established companies. But there is really no equivalent service from any of them. The closest Hetzner service is 45 euro/mo. It is possible that with different scale, it will make more sense. You get a lot more performance for that price, of course. But I don't need that performance and my bandwidth consumption is minuscule. They do have managed web hosting for much cheaper, but I need access to the OS.With Lightstail I pay $5-6. And other services at a similar <$10/mo price point are really bad.I'm no fan of huge corporations, but that's the good part about AWS - they have extreme flexibility and variety of services.Just for comparison, the server I rent from amazon is "1 GB RAM, 1 vCPU, 30 GB SSD". This is all I need and I can't imagine that adding a lot of drain to anyone's infrastructure. But other companies don't bother to create those lower tier services.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 05:44:50 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 12, 2023, 05:12:20 pmUh ... I mean, "vCPU" is somewhat ambiguous, but:https://www.hetzner.com/de/cloud?2 GB RAM, 1 "vCPU", 20 GB SSD, 4.51 EUR p.m., incl. 19% German VAT, 3.92 EUR if you don't need IPv4. Also includes 20 TB of traffic.Similar products from OVH:https://www.ovhcloud.com/en/vps/2 GB RAM, 1 "vCPU", 20 GB SSD, 4.20 USD p.m., with 100 Mb/s unmetered.Similar products from united internet:https://cloud.ionos.com/servers/vps1 GB RAM, 1 "vCPU", 10 GB SSD, 2 USD p.m., with 1 Gb/s unmetered....

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 05:54:53 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on November 12, 2023, 05:44:50 pmYes, this is it.I'll have to try that and see how it compares.With ionos.com clicking on any of the "Configure" buttons results in "Sorry, this page is currently not available! We are working to correct this issue as quickly as possible. In the meantime, should you have any questions please contact our Customer Hotline.". It looks like it only happens when selecting US based servers.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 06:13:36 pm
content: Well, I tried to register with Hetzner. It is annoying that you have to enter your home address and credit card information before you can even login. But ok, I trust them, so I went on and provided my complete information. As soon as I finish registration confirming my credit card info, I get this email:QuoteNo info on what are those "some concerns", no chance to address any of them, just close the account before it is even opened. Plus they grabbed my personal info in the process.And obviously no person reviewed any of the information, the email arrived as soon as I pressed the button to complete registration.So, I'll go on with Amazon.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 06:55:10 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 12, 2023, 06:13:36 pmThat is rather absurd. Especially considering that they seem to extend the same policy to customers with existing products, if they update their personal info in some way Hetzner considers suspicious. They can decline doing business with new interested parties if they want, but terminating an existing contract without notice and without stating cause? Hmm...I guess you could ask them about this, clarify matters etc. -- but I can certainly understand that you are not interested to spend any time and effort on that, and would rather do without them.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 07:05:02 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 12, 2023, 06:13:36 pmHaha ... well, yeah, that sort of thing is why I said they aren't necessarily the best. I hadn't heard that particular variant before, but that their customer service sometimes is ... lacking ... is kinda well known. Though you hear similar sorts of stories about AWS ...

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 07:15:49 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 12, 2023, 06:55:10 pmI am pretty sure that their TOS (AGB) specifies a longer cancellation period, so, legally, that shouldn't be possible.But I have heard more than one story where Hetzner just blocked a server because of supposed security problems ... with no real way to investigate or fix the problem, or even learn what the problem is. Maybe not a daily occurence, but apparently a thing that happens.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 07:31:17 pm
content: In Alex's case, they did not cancel an existing contract, but refused to open a new one. That's well within their rights, but the way they do it leaves a bad aftertaste anyway. I would guess it is some sort of blacklist/boycot thing, with a significant false-positive rate. And to avoid discrimination complaints, the decided not to give any reason at all.@ataradov -- last time you checked, did you run an oligarch empire anywhere?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 07:41:48 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 12, 2023, 07:31:17 pmIf I did, I'd like to know. May be I don't have to go to work on Monday.The only things I can see them considering as "irregularities" would be use of VPN for registration and the name on the credit card is my full legal name Alexander vs preferred name Alex on the account.But I don't see why any of this would be a problem. VPNs are common and in many cases unavoidable. And if payment method is an issue, they could have told me and I would have used PayPal or something.I don't mind providing any supporting info they need, I just don't want to be in a position where I try to register account over and over trying to guess what they want. Which itself could be flagged.It is also too bad that you have to provide all the info at the registration time, so there is no way to solve one issue at a time. It would be fine if they allowed me to have an account and have a look at the control panel, but ask for a payment method before adding any service that costs money.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 09:25:21 pm
content: Anyway, you can't completely eradicate Google from your life. Resistance is futile.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 10:44:39 pm
content: I often hear people wanting to distance themselves from Google because of tracking, advertising etc... etc... But one thing to keep in mind: The free Google services (e.g.: Gmail) are a completely different beast to Google Workspace even though they might look the same on the surface.If you love the features you get with Google but want granular control of your information, then your own domain paired with Google Workspace is the way to go. Everything can be finely tuned, even down to location history being completely disabled if that's what you want. You can enable/disable individual Google services so the junk you don't use won't even run if you try.Running your own mail server these days is a whole world of hurt and administration that even some of the more hardcore sysadmins tend to distance themselves from and I have to say, Google's spam/phishing filtering is probably among the best in the world.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 10:48:09 pm
content: A common complaint that I hear from Workspace users us that it is not at feature parity with the regular free service. I don't expect most people to care, but still something to keep in mind. All the new features (like AI, new UIs) lag in Workspace sometimes by months, sometimes don't appear at all.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 10:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 12, 2023, 07:41:48 pmThat's almost certainly it. Many "high risk" payment processing scenarios have all but banned VPN traffic (though they won't tell you this)... if you're a consumer but your traffic doesn't originate from a consumer ISP's network you'll be flagged as fraud.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2023, 11:44:13 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 12, 2023, 10:48:09 pmYep, that's true. However it's not something I've come across personally. Just about all the consumer features are there. I don't think I'm missing out on anything. I'd say the added features you do get in Workspace, outweigh anything that's missing.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 03:31:13 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 12, 2023, 10:44:39 pmBut ... the company is exactly the same!? So, if I mind *tracking* by them, why would I feed all my data into them just because they claim they don't track me?Quote from: Halcyon on November 12, 2023, 10:44:39 pmHow would I know that I have control of my information?Quote from: Halcyon on November 12, 2023, 10:44:39 pmThat isn't my experience.Quote from: Halcyon on November 12, 2023, 10:44:39 pmIs it really? Given that part of the reason why running your own mail server supposedly is so difficult is claimed to be deliverability to gmail, I would think that that indicates a terrible spam filter? I mean, a spam filter that has a high rate of false positives doesn't sound like a good spam filter to me ... and if the way to circumvent it is to become a customer of the company that operates that filter, that smells like anti-competitive behaviour, which would be even more reason to not use them.