New DMM vs high-end older ones - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 01:39:59 pm
content: I did some searches and couldn't find anything, so I'll ask a few questions about DMM selection.Basically, I'm looking to spend around $90-$135 for a digital multimeter. My primary uses are automotive, electronics, and some household duty. Contemporary automotive really requires the ability to measure AC millivolts (mV), in the 200-800 mV range, in order to make sense of several kinds of sensors. (Wheel speed sensors, for example.) I don't expect to do anything higher voltage than, say, 220V household connections. I live in the U.S., so most mains power is 120V.I've limped by with an underperforming DMM for some time, and would like to step up to something that not only does what I want but makes me feel good every time I pick it up.I can spend $135 for a Brymen BM-257s (and around that for the twin Greenlee DM-510a, with its lifetime warranty). Or I can spend around $135 for a used Tektronix DMM916 or perhaps a Fluke 87 III. The Fluke is, of course, well-established as a product, and the Tektronix was given positive remarks by Dave Jones in his (recent, I think) auction purchase of Australian defense forces Tektronix gear.So...am I better off with a nice new mid-range meter from a decent brand, or a used premium model from a decade ago?Thanks.GeekPriest.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 02:36:56 pm
content: I would tend to suggest a higher end used meter. The harder part is finding one. One I really like, but it's hard to find, is the Metrix rebranded BK Precision 83x0 series (I did a tear down a while back). IP67, 50,000 count, 0.025% DCV accuracy. However, it lacks temp and the back light is bad. Still, I got it for $36 off ebay (I was checking fairly often and recognized it by the picture).You can, on occasion, find a Fluke 87-5 for the money you want to spend. However, they typically go for closer to $200. However, 83-5's are often around $100. I got one recently, in 100% functional but very scratched up and dirty shape, for $70. The 83-5 loses the 20,000 count mode, the TRMS AC readings and I think it's 0.1% vs 0.05% base accuracy. However, for automotive work that is probably fine. Oh, it also loses the temp reading which is something I would miss.Fluke 87-4/89/187/189 meters occasionally show up for $130 or so on ebay. This was meant to be the 87's replacement. I don't think they feel as durable as the 87. They don't have the external rubber boot. They are also battery hogs. On the plus side, I don't think there is a single measurement the 87-5 does better. A minor drawback, and this is true of many high end meters, is sometimes all those extra modes just seem to get in the way. The 87 is likely popular in part because it seems to be the perfect balance between providing good accuracy and ranges while not going too far and being cluttered.One I really like is the Amprobe Am-270. It's an older Brymen design:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teardown-amprobe-am-270-digital-multimeter/Amazon no longer sells them for $90. Instead you have to pay $120 for a meter that really gives the 87-5 a decent run for the money (not better but a great value).Ultimately you would have to look around at what you think you can find used and then decide. Personally, if I didn't think I would drop the meter too much (if you plan on dropping it, get one with a good rubber case) I would get the Am-270. That same basic meter was also sold as a GreenLee and Extech. Either of those versions would be good choices as well. (Note, Extech meters are made by a number of different ODMs The Brymen ones are good, not so sold on the others).Below are some sample Greenlee/Brymen listings to give you and idea. (For reference only, I have no knowledge of the sellers!)http://www.ebay.com/itm/Greenlee-Dm-820A-True-Rms-Digital-Multimeter-/131583413311?hash=item1ea2fb8c3fhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Greenlee-DM-820a-Digital-Multimeter-/271962378290?hash=item3f52389032http://www.ebay.com/itm/GREENLEE-DM-810-TRUE-RMS-DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-w-CASE-MANUAL-EXCELLENT-/221844685197?hash=item33a6f9418dhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Greenlee-DM-820-True-RMS-Multimeter-/311418779878?hash=item48820178e6&nma=true&si=cMjxQ3AgXfOjQrnpoFDR2MkWNI8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557The GreenLee DM-8x0 meters (same design generation as the Amprobe Am-270) going for less than $100 are VERY good values, especially the 820s (functionally the same as the AM-270).

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 02:41:43 pm
content: Thanks a bunch for that thoughtful, detailed reply. I'm reading it carefully.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 02:56:47 pm
content: Yeah, I agree with the last poster but be careful buying a secondhand expensive meter.Unfortunately, the electronics inside does drift some more than others and as a consequence of this you could end up with a Fluke 87V that's drifted out of spec. If this is the case, can it be calibrated at low cost? Is the calibration done with zero/span pots or software?To avoid the above problem, buy a reputable brand new and after 3 years or so flog it on Ebay and then cycle back.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 03:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 20, 2015, 02:56:47 pmFor what it's worth.. I've bought quite a few used Fluke meters, bunch of 8060a, 27, 83-V, 87-III, 87-V, 26-II... First thing I usually do is run them against my DMM Check Plus, and some other comparative tests between meters. I have yet to come across one that's been out of cal. 87V is a newer meter too, so I doubt you will be out of spec.I needed to replace the zebra strips on some older 83s and 87s, and I've had the buzzer drawing too much current issue on the 27-II (common problem on this meter). The two 87-Vs I bought were in great condition. One of them was unused, and the other one is an older 87-V also in a good condition (the older 87-Vs have that GSM interference issue and the backlight looks a little different), but they have been my main meters and have been spot on since I got them.Problem with the newer Fluke meters is that you can't really self calibrate them since the cal procedure is automated and requires some pretty special gear to do. I have found a place in the US that charges $60 for calibration, but I haven't had to use them yet.If I was on a tight budget I would seriously consider a used 83-V. They can be had for relatively cheap, and they are great meters. The missing features compared to an 87-V aren't the ones I would miss in day to day use. I scored an 83-V for $40. It needed fuses and the battery connector needed to be replaced. But it works great now and it looks brand new cosmetically.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 04:06:36 pm
content: Hi Muxr,You are quite right, the Flukes do tend to stay in spec., my 289(6 years old) has drifted a bit but still in spec. but it is still out by a certain amount and given it's a closed case calibration, i.e., costing big money for calibration, I decided to Ebay it. It's replacement is a new UT61E which is calibrated easily with a screwdriver and a voltage source and if it goes faulty I will simply buy another new one of Ebay.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 04:18:28 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on August 20, 2015, 03:42:25 pmSame here. I have a few 30+ years old Flukes still in spec. I also have a few from other brands with 10, 15 years also still in spec.To the OP, used Fluke 17x (175/177/179) may interest you for the "feel good in the hands" factor, as they are built like tanks. The drawbacks are they are less featured than the 83/87 and current goes down to 0.01mA only, but if you can find one at a good price... (specshere)

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 05:17:35 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 20, 2015, 04:06:36 pmI'm curious. What drifted and by how much? And what source was used for the comparison?

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 05:35:03 pm
content: The biggest problem with buying second hand is that the seller knowingly or unknowingly sells test equipment as used and working, but isn't.For example, since Robomeds and I have exchanged a few emails in the past, I can point out some of his "used" ebay purchases. Seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87-v-mystery-low-impedance-input/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/idea-61-481-multimeter-teardown/What is interesting is that after the repair, virtually all of them are within their specifications. Obviously, the person fixing the meter has limited references, but the repaired meterwithout adjustmentdo meet those references.Modemhead's website has variety of repairs and usually the last two pictures shows comparison to a 5V and 806 ohm precision reference. He will state whether the repaired meter needs adjustment or not. He also has a DMMcheck and does compare the repaired meter to that.http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/all-posts/

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 05:37:26 pm
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on August 20, 2015, 01:39:59 pmWhat is your current meter?QuoteAs others have shared, with patience and careful bidding, you can have more than one quality meter for $135 USD total or less.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 05:43:51 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on August 20, 2015, 05:17:35 pmMy calibrator designed by me essentially a copy of Krohn and Hite MV106(as blogged by Dave) and as a comparison Keysight-1 new 34461A and 1 new 34465A and 1 Fluke 8808A, I must stress the 289 was in spec. but not good enough for me.What has drifted?, I always check Vdc only.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on August 20, 2015, 05:37:26 pmI use a mix of a Craftsman 82345 (same as Extech MN35) and a vintage ruggedized Triplett 60-NA analog meter. (You can laugh now, if you like.) These two have solved most of my issues, though. What I'd like, however, is to have the role the Triplett plays -- measuring small AC voltages, and observing changes -- rolled into a single digital meter.However, I'm wanting to be more serious about a hobby (and possible career change) that I've neglected for a while. The "makes me happy to pick it up" factor is important to me. Sure, my Craftsman wrench does the same basic job as the Snap-on one, but the latter makes me smile every time I use it.QuoteRight now, I'm deliberating a like-new Tektronix DMM916 for $135. My only real concern is its age, but the meter is otherwise quite nice. But for that price, I can have a new and warranted Brymen BM-257s/Greenlee DM-510a.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:40:34 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on August 20, 2015, 05:35:03 pmYes, this is a very good point! While the majority of the meters I have purchased through ebay that were stated as good are good, I'm not at 100% (more like 80%). The Ideal meter discussed above (not a bad meter BTW) was not described as good. The Fluke 87-V was described as good IIRC. I have bought a few meters that were listed as broken with the intent to try to fix them but that is another mater. You can't get mad when a seller lists the meter as broken and it turns out to be... broken.BTW, my experience with older Fluke meters is they have not needed adjustment. This includes a few Fluke 27's I've messed with as well as some of the Fluke 23 (the old boxy ones). The only times I've found a Fluke that didn't meet specs (out of perhaps 10-15 used meters) was when they had some type of damage. Honestly, that seems to be true for the rest of the meters I've messed with as well.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on August 20, 2015, 06:24:51 pmI think that Tektronix is actually an APPA (?) made meter. There is a tear down around here somewhere. I don't think I would want it over a similar priced Brymen (or Brymen based GreenLee/Amprobe/Extech) or the rare but possible Fluke 87-4/187etc that can be occasionally found for the same price. For a "generic" I really do like the Brymen meters and I think most would agree.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: Robomeds on August 20, 2015, 06:46:02 pmDave Jones also has a brief teardown of the Tektronix DMM916 in his auction video.Guess I'll take a hard look at the DM-510a (Greenlee-branded Brymen) and the Amprobe AM-270. The latter seems to be available for around $110 with free shipping and the Amprobe case for it. I don't know whether a suitable used Fluke/Tek meter will show up for suitably low prices on eBay.The Modemhead blog is an amazing thing.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: Robomeds on August 20, 2015, 06:46:02 pmSome of Tektronix handheld multimeters are made by APPA Tech. For example, the Tektronix DM252 is identical to the APPA 105.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/iso-tech-(appa)-idm105-dmm/http://www.use.com/images/s_3/Tektronix_DM252_Handheld_Digital_Multimeter_1db7aace46d4ccd0ffca.jpgIn the APPA 105, you can see similarities with the DMM 916. Teardown pictures of the DMM 912 are athttp://mrmodemhead.com/blog/tektronix-dmm912-teardown/Another is the Tektronix DMM157 aka APPA 69https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Tektronix_DMM157.jpghttp://www.appatech.com/upload/pdmodel/pdmodel_image11355822929635.jpg

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:39:25 pm
content: Are these DMM916 and DMM914 models worth $100? $80? More?

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on August 20, 2015, 06:24:51 pmThe original manufacturer of the Craftsman and Extech is likely CEM Instruments.QuoteWould a dual display help in your daily use? Robomeds linked an auction for the DM-820A which has a dual display for some readings/features (see manual).edit:typo

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:52:37 pm
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on August 20, 2015, 08:39:25 pmDue to the weak CDN dollar, insanely high priority insured shipping costs + customs/duties/tax from the USA to Canada for a single meter, I haven't participated/competed in ebay auctions in over a year now. Robomeds, try to contain your enthusiasm.For a while, before we knew each other, we competed on the same auctions.So I don't know what fair market value is anymore. However, a quick look through the completed auctions, I would have bid on thishttp://www.ebay.com/itm/291493186693$55.55 for two "For parts or not working" . Both power up and show the correct display when set to resistance. The "Probe" display lcd message is probably user error wrt to where to place the leads.If you are not comfortable potentially fixing something, then buying new + warranty may be the way to go for you. Your second meter could possibly be a fixer upper?PS. I know modemhead got the DMM 912 in his blog for $30 + $10 s/h off ebay.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 09:06:30 pm
content: Oh, look!http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-8-CEN-TECH-7-Function-Multimeters-/281775837430

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 12:35:24 am
content: Well someone decided this was worth more to them than it was to me...http://www.ebay.com/itm/141745128467?_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&autorefresh=trueFluke 87-5, went for $101 after shipping. I was hoping no one else would notice and I would get it for $70. The probes are beat up but the basic meter looks to be in good but dirty shape. It's worth well north of $101 but that's all the spending money I had for something I don't need.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 12:55:42 am
content: Quote from: Robomeds on August 21, 2015, 12:35:24 amIf the 87V works as advertised, $101 is a great price.Dirty meters, poorly worded ads, out of focus pictures, meter not powered on, low feedback score, odd ending auction time (during people's dinner or when most people are sleeping) are all things thatattractme to an auction. Way less chance of competition. Obviously, I bid accordingly and have discipline to walk away.I got a working used "Flyke" 85 III once as the only bidder on a 7 day auction.I also know the various ODM/OEM relationships so I can get premium brand xyz as generic brand abc (the exact same meter) which people ignore.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 12:58:38 am
content: Since nobody mentioned it, there's the Fluke 27FM military surplus meters. They often have fairly recent cals and most of them seem to have spent their life on the shelf. They're a little less featured and lack backlight, but rugged as heck and have a good battery life.I have one and it's the one I tend to grab when I need a meter

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 01:07:40 am
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on August 21, 2015, 12:55:42 amSo you're saying,dirty meters, bought dirt cheap?I'll try to remember that.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 01:09:18 am
content: Quote from: PaulAm on August 21, 2015, 12:58:38 amI have a Fluke 27. My personal view of it in terms for pros/cons.Pros- highly reliable- high accuracy (0.1% DCV)- rugged- easy to use- 1000 hour battery life- service manual with schematics, theory of operation making DIY repair possible- trimpots if adjustment is required- Fluke touch hold- min/maxCons- takes 2 or 3 seconds to boot- when switching rotary knob, it might get powered off as there are 2 off positions- continuity speed is slow- the all grey models have a slightly dark haze on the plastic/lcd making the digits hard to read- the lcd digits are pretty small compared to the 87 III and Brymen mentioned by the OP- no backlight if working in garage or working underneath car hood

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 01:47:58 am
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on August 21, 2015, 01:09:18 amPros: You can use it as a brick for building and self defense projects.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:52:18 am
content: I agree with almost all of those. If you had several, you could use them to block up your car as well.Although I've heard the complaint, I don't find the continuity particularly slow on mine. YMMV

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:21:07 pm
content: Well, I've been doing some testing with my new UNI-T UT61E(22000) and my new Greenlee BM510A(6000). On dc voltage of 5V and 50V I opened the 61E and tweeked it a little, it now reads Vdc bang on to within 1 count.Tried the 510A with the same setup above and reads 7 counts too high, not sure how to calibrate it so I just left it like that.Now for current, in particular 4..20mA, I just want to point out that I thought the UniT would be good here because sweeping from 4 to 20mA is all in one single range, anyway it turned out to read 45counts too high(still well within spec. though) when reading 20mA current.As for the Greenlee 510A reads 4.. 20mA current bang on, the only limitation is its resolution.Go figure.Anyone know how to calibrate dc current on the UniT UT61E?, I've a feeling that the dc voltage pot adjustment is for both dc voltage and dc current?

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 05:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 21, 2015, 03:21:07 pmI have since found out the Vdc and Idc span adjustment is same blue potentiometer.This means you can only have the UT61E read Vdc bang on or Idc bang on but not both together, unless someone can find the burden resistor and perhaps reduce its tolerance band.That said, I compromised Vdc reads 2 counts low on 20Vdc and 35 counts too high on 20mA.So to round off, the UT61E is limited in accuracy, even if you use top flight calibration equipment.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 06:09:37 pm
content: Vdc accuracy should always have priority over current measurement accuracy.If you need precision current measurement, just use a precision current shunt in series with your DUT. This has the added advantage of being able to select the resistance for your specific application. If you use your meter's current shunt, you only get a choice of 3 values, which will often be non-ideal (too high burden voltage or too low precision).In fact, if you're designing your own PCBs, it's a good idea to add a footprint for a current shunt with a cuttable jumper in parallel. For testing your prototypes or later troubleshooting, you populate the shunt and cut the jumper.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 06:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on August 21, 2015, 06:09:37 pmHI MOS6502(brilliant cpu btw)Thanks for the reply, that is what I have assumed, my uni-T UT61E gives/reads 20.000 Vdc for a source of 20.0005 Vdc. Then the current reads 20.035mA dc for a source of 20.0000mA dc.My point was, if you try and adjust the current reading then it also adjusts the Volts dc reading so, like you say, adjust for Vdc best accuracy across its range.Idealy, the meter should have separate zero/span adjustments for both volts and current.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 06:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on August 20, 2015, 08:39:25 pmI have a Tektronix DMM916 and have had from new. It's an excellent meter, takes abuse and has maintained it's accuracy over the years. I still use it daily. Worth well over the 150.00 mark imho.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 06:43:52 pm
content: I haven't read all the posts however I can say from experience; get the best made, most useful meter you can afford even if it means saving for a while. I have a Becaman (absorbed by Waveteck) DMM I purchsed back in the late 80s.The meter was used daily in commerical two way radio (it has fallen off the roof of more than a few vehicles, and accidentally kicked across the install bay floor) The meter is not only still good but holds its calibration and it's age rather well. This has been a faithful meter and in four years will be thirty years old.Considering that your meter won't be a Bench Beauty and will actually get out and get dirty, get something that will stand up to some accidental abuse, you won't regret it. (make sure it is CAT-5).

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 06:59:40 pm
content: Hi,I only payed £35 for the UT61E, I bought it just out of curiosity then anything else because I wanted a meter that I could calibrate myself and the DMM handheld reviewers seem to have very high praise for the UT61E, so I am finding out that it's calibration ability is limited which I just want to highlight its shortcomings for other users thinking about getting one at low cost through Ebay.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 07:08:38 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 21, 2015, 06:30:03 pmYep, still chugging along in my trusty old C64 and 1541.Quote from: commie on August 21, 2015, 06:30:03 pmLooks like the circuit design is a compromise. It's still way better than you could expect for a $50 meter. I'll have to get me one of those. Seems like the perfect complement to the UT139C. Does a lot that the other one doesn't and vice versa. It is a bit of a shame though, because if it was spot on, you could use the 20.000 counts to measure microamps without actually having to use the microamp range and its associated high burden voltage. Of course you can get around that by making a little current measuring box using e.g. a precision 1 Ohm resistor.Or just get a second UT61E and calibrate that one for current ...

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 07:15:19 pm
content: I own a bunch of meters, including Fluke 89-4.Recently bought a Brymen 257S - very impressive meter for the money. Would the recommend the Brymen over a used Fluke UNLESS you know exactly what your doing - much less stress.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 08:01:49 pm
content: Just to throw out another ebay deal (again this is just looking, no relation with the seller)....http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amprobe-AM-130-TRMS-Tester-True-RMS-Digital-Multimeter-PC-Connection-Temp-/201404717222?hash=item2ee4a818a6Amprobe AM-130 (seems to be the same as the 270). $70, free shipping and he is accepting offers.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 08:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: Robomeds on August 21, 2015, 08:01:49 pm10% discount off BIN is about all the seller will accept based on past history.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 08:28:04 pm
content: Previous experience or just looking at their listing history?Either way, I think under $70 is good for that meter.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 08:38:04 pm
content: Quote from: Robomeds on August 21, 2015, 08:28:04 pmListing history.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 09:27:36 pm
content: Although I've known this for a long time with regard to all handheld meters, one of the best available Vdc accuracy is +-0.025% ,i.e., the Fluke 287/9.The Brymen BM869s breaks the latter barrier with a basic Vdc accuracy of 0.02% which is very good for a handheld portable meter.If you want better accuracy then your only route is to go bench .

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:20:00 pm
content: Is $60 for the AM-130 a good deal?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:55:35 pm
content: Quote from: commie on August 21, 2015, 09:27:36 pmGossen 30M does 0.003% on DC volt accuracy. Quite a few handheld meters can match the 0.02% of the Brymen and some even go down to 0.01%.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 12:54:30 am
content: Quote from: commie on August 21, 2015, 09:27:36 pmI don't have either the 289 or BM869 and I really don't care which is more accurate, but for the sake of facts, I present the screenshots from their respective manual. The fine print tells a different story.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 01:34:18 am
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on August 21, 2015, 11:20:00 pmLooking at the specs it seems like the meter is identical to the Am-270. The 270 seems to be going for about $120 these days. In my opinion that is a very good value when you consider a 5000 count, 0.08%+2d DC accuracy etc.http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/amprobe/multimeters/am-270.htmThe thing also has good safety features (CAT 3, 1000V, CAT 4, 600V). $60 seems like a no brainer unless there really is some feature you need that it doesn't have.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 01:50:08 am
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on August 21, 2015, 11:20:00 pmIn post #1, you considered spending $135 USD just for the Brymen BM257s. The Amprobe AM-130 is an older discontinued Brymen made meter.Compared to the newer BM257s, you don't get NCV and Auto-check (Lo-Z). The BM257s is also 6000 count whereas the AM-130 is 5000 count.If you don't need those features, then at half the price ($60) , it is a pretty good bargain considering it is new. Given it's build quality, UL listing, features, speed, lcd readout, input protection, I think it would be #1 or #2 in any $50 shootout depending on what the end user values.Robomeds did a mini-review and teardown of the AM-120.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/amprobe-(bryman)-am130-teardown/PS. $45 + $30 + $60 = $135 USD and you would have 3 meters!

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 04:25:45 am
content: Well, I've got the new AM-130 and a pair of used Flukes coming my way for a total cost of $135 ($60 + 45 + 30), funded by the sale of some audio equipment I'm "flipping".I'll probably figure out which pair to keep for my needs and share the third (if usable) with a young ham I know.I've got a vintage Amprobe clamp ammeter that works fine, so, even though it's made by Brymen, it'll be nice to have an Amprobe branded meter. And, since it'll be known working (and lifetime warranted), it should make it easier to deal with any issues in the Flukes. I don't care for the tall and skinny Extech displays, so I'm happy everything headed my way has wider, easier to read (for me) digits.I've found the interaction here very helpful, and interesting too.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 04:35:02 am
content: BTW, I should note that getting 3 quality meters at bargain prices all in a span of 14 hours all on ebay is a rarity.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 11:16:06 am
content: It wouldn't have been possible without the help provided here. Thanks!

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 07:15:55 pm
content: So which three did you get? AM-130 + ?Fluke 27?

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 07:28:08 pm
content: Sounds like you did well.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 08:14:24 pm
content: Amprobe AM-130 (new)Fluke 77 ivFluke 27FMWe'll see what I think. I imagine I can rehome to a young ham I know, or sell to a local EE student. (I live in a college town.)

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 11:00:01 pm
content: The Amprobe AM-130 and the Fluke 27/FM both arrived today. (Positive feedback left for both sellers on eBay, thanks to quick shipping.)Still looking them over, but, man, the Fluke 27 is a BEAST. When you pick it up, you KNOW you're holding a real tool. It definitely oozes milspec. I do like the large diameter dial. My stubby fingers have no problems grabbing hold of it. The bail is large is substantial. Functionally speaking, it's definitely not as slick as the Amprobe, though.For $60, this Amprobe AM-130 is quite a bargain, IMHO. I had an Extech EX330 that I returned to Amazon. I just didn't like the display (tall and skinny digits are hard to read) and lack of big fuses, for a meter coming in at $50.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 02:55:45 am
content: Glad you like the Amprobe. For $60 I can't imagine it losing any "best for around $50" comparison... as if $50 were the regular price. The 27 is really a beast. I put it next to a Fluke 23 and one looks tiny compared to the other. Anyway, I hope the last meter works as well as the other two.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 04:04:34 am
content: 27 is a beast of a meter. I take mine with me to meetups. Or when I work on cars or outdoor projects. It just begs to be abused.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 05:36:58 am
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on August 20, 2015, 01:39:59 pmRegarding the Tektronix DMM916 from Dave's auction score, he now says they are "crap" reply #6. Seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wtb-ausie-military-tektronix-multimeter/

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 01:42:00 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on September 01, 2015, 05:36:58 amI wonder whether that's just because his samples were abused or damaged (possibly what led to their surplus)? Sorry to hear it didn't work out for him as well as his enthusiasm suggested.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 01:51:22 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on September 01, 2015, 05:36:58 amI'm not sure if I should read that as the used, beat up meters he bought were junk or the meter design in general. I ask because there was one on ebay that I thought about bidding on but decided I really don't need it. I really need to get rid of, not collect more

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 02:03:21 pm
content: The information I could find indicated the DMM916 wasn't junk at all, and I certainly couldn't imagine Tektronix putting their name on something subpar. But perhaps....

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 02:38:39 pm
content: I've never had a 916 or a TX3 but they are meters that I do keep an eye out for and if the price is right then I would not hesitate in grabbing either one to satisfy my curiosity, only just today a Fluke 83 was listed on Gumtree which is like a free Ebay and it was only fifteen minutes away so I rang and got it for the listed price of $20AUD ($15USD).It was completely knackered and not working at all but after a bit of scrubbing, a little bit of love and an intoxicating amount of isopropyl alcohol along with a good read of modemheads information it is now working a treat and even though I have a good collection of meters I have never had an eighty series and can now see what all the fuss is about.Have taken some before and after shots and will post them up tomorrow in another thread along with the list of faults that were found and fixed including some info on the included silicone leads which I had never seen before, so stay tuned.Muttley

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 04:23:40 pm
content: I've managed to score a very nice (i.e., bit of minor scuffing on the screen) the Greenlee DM-820a twin of the Brymen BM-869s for $50 on eBay. Wow.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 04:42:49 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 01, 2015, 02:38:39 pmI have,.......I bought a Tek TX1 from Farnell during the late ninety's, brand new straight out of the box current measurement faulty. Farnell replaced with new and the second one worked for about 18 months and died, I remember it took two AA batteries which gave about 1 hour use.About 1 year and half after buying my Tx1, I came to use it one day, only to find it totally unresponsive to button presses or main switch rotation, I consequently packed it up and dropped it in the refuse bin and I was only glad to see the back of it.So why did I choose Tektronix?, well at the time my scope was a Tek475 and I considered the latter to be top flight engineering, maybe it was? and maybe Tek had lost it's way in the intervening years?Anyhow, Fluke bought the tx1/3 technology and briefly marketed the tx1 and tx3 under Fluke name, they were subsequently taken off the market and that was the end of the tx1/3.After my experiences with the tx1 I vowed never to touch or buy another Tek product.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 10:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on September 01, 2015, 02:03:21 pmMany of Tektronix handheld multimeters are made by APPA Technologies in Taiwan. IMHO, APPA is a step above the generic junk, but slightly behind Brymen in terms of quality, functionality, etc.http://www.appatech.com/appa_product.php?id=2005081003113623241

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 10:09:04 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 01, 2015, 02:38:39 pmI would be buying used/abused Fluke 83 all day long if I could find them for $15 USD.The Fluke 83 doesn't get much love compared to the Fluke 87 because it lacks True RMS, 20,000 count and some other features.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 10:12:05 pm
content: Quote from: commie on September 01, 2015, 04:42:49 pmThe above are meters I woud love to get my hands on just for the possible repair knowledge that I would gain.One person's trash is another peron's treasure.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 01:00:50 am
content: Here are the pictures of the Fluke 83 that I got yesterday, I was going to go through a lengthy explanation of what was wrong with the unit but I think most people are aware of the common issues that both these and other meters have such as zebra strips, input jacks, selector switches and membrane contacts, all of the above were at fault in this case and now appear to be resolved.One point I will make and that is being familiar with how a piece of test equipment should behave is to say the least absolutely critical in the repair process, this one had me stumped with the continuous beeping on most selections until I read over Modemheads articles and realised that the issue may be simply the input jack sense, and it was exactly that and even though I had thoroughly cleaned them out and checked the solder connections it was just the act of plugging the leads in and out that seemed to fix the problem.And just to add, I made mention in the previous post of some silicone leads that I hadn't come across before and the 83 came with both the original leads which were absolutely filthy and a set of 4mm male to male 2 meter leads with retractable protection sleeves, not sure who make them but probably the best leads I've ever seen and I have posted a link below of what they look like, handy for plugging directly into binding posts as the spring loaded shroud does retract. (MKF 1147)http://phywe.alphalink.com.au/Leads01.htm

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 01:39:57 am
content: Nice repair and cleanup. It's a good meter now.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 02:18:12 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on September 02, 2015, 01:39:57 amYes - outstanding work.

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 02:24:50 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 01, 2015, 02:38:39 pmGrrrrrrrrr.. I would be even older and gone completely white and unable to feed myself let alone probe any circuit before my luck would be in to find such !!.Nice cleanup.... unlessssss there is another 83 'ring in' lurking the cupboard.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 03:51:39 am
content: Quote from: lowimpedance on September 02, 2015, 02:24:50 amThanks for the compliments, I have fixed these and others in the past for customers and friends and just happened to get lucky on this one but thought that for $20 the leads alone would clean up and cover the purchase and as it turned out the PCB was in pretty good shape with the original fuses still intact, all of the other meters I have were purchased new so this is the first of I hope many dodgy looking units to get a new life.The previous owner was an electrician so I was expecting the worst and I can assure you that it is not a ring in or substitute as the scratches on the screen will show, also I may look at adding backlight to this one but haven't seen anyone else post on this modification, even a momentary light would be better than nothing so we will see.Here is the picture of the original listing and as you can see it is very scary particularly with the leads in all jacks, maybe he thought it was capable of simultaneous V and I or he was doing some hot swapping, anyway she now works a treat and the two counts out are actually the 189 and not the 83.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 04:10:18 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 02, 2015, 03:51:39 amThe fuses are worth more than $20

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 05:57:30 am
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on September 01, 2015, 01:42:00 pmIf really used by the Australian military, that could explains the problems? Unless Dave elaborates, we won't know for sure.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 07:35:05 am
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on September 02, 2015, 05:57:30 amMaybe they couldn't take the cold all the way up in the Alps.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 11:04:30 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on September 02, 2015, 07:35:05 amLOL.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 02:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on September 01, 2015, 04:23:40 pmCongratulations, you got an absolute bargain on yourDM-820A. However, it is not theBM869Stwin... Greenlee'sDM-860Ais the one.It is confusing, but the DM-820A has 10k counts while the others have 50k and go up to 500k in hi res mode.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 03:33:46 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 02, 2015, 02:59:35 pmThanks for the clarification. I couldn't find a table making the direct comparison between model numbers in the two lineups. Looks like the Greenlee DM-820a is the same as the Brymen BM-827s,http://brymen.eu/shop/bm827s/.I rarely have need (at least at present) for resolution at the 50k+ level, so this should do what I need.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 06:27:09 pm
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on September 02, 2015, 03:33:46 pm$50 for the meter you got is a great deal. I would have jumped on that had I seen it... and I'm trying to downsize

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 11:07:10 pm
content: 10,000 count on voltage and frequency only. 6,000 count on mV and other functions

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 01:10:47 am
content: Quote from: Robomeds on September 02, 2015, 06:27:09 pmWell, the actual price was $65, but the seller didn't include some other random hardware (a tool charger) listed in the ad. So I negotiated an additional adjustment. Even at $65, it was a good deal.The Greenlee is definitely a big meter, but my middle-aged eyes appreciate the large display.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 02:22:05 am
content: Well, attempt #1 to fix the non-working backlight and continuity buzzer on a Fluke 77-iv was a failure. Try try again.Got any advice, mrmodemhead?

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 03:18:45 am
content: Quote from: GeekPriest on September 03, 2015, 02:22:05 amI suggest you start a new thread for this 77IV repair effort and that you include some clear focused pictures of both sides of the pcb. That way, it will get the correct people looking at it due to the subject header.In addition, tell us what works and what you have done so far.

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 06:37:10 pm
content: New repair thread athttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-77-iv-repair-no-backlight-or-continuity-buzzer/

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 02:07:33 am
content: I looked around on the forum for a dedicated 80 series thread but was unable to find one so for now I will leave this here.Recently I acquired a Fluke 83 which is noted earlier in this thread and I have a question in regards to the continuity piezo which from my tests is activated at 70 ohms and then deactivated once the reading rises above 196 ohms when set to auto or low range, I am yet to document the continuity thresholds in other ranges which do vary according to the range selection.Everything on this particular meter seems to be working fine but when in resistance mode and the min-max button is selected the piezo will permanently activate in either min, max or average until the probes are shorted, so the continuity mode is inverted. On a couple of other meters that I have such as the Fluke 187, 189 and an old Metex M-3650CR whilst in continuity mode if the min-max is set to min then the continuity piezo will be off until a momentary short of the probes is applied which will permanently latch the piezo until the unit is manually reset, this is a handy feature for the type of work that I am involved with although I suspect that most users would never operate the meter in this manner.Other meters that cannot latch the piezo whist in continuity mode with minimum selected and a momentary contact applied are UT-70D, 83, 117 and U1272A, these are the only meters that I have tested, I don't think the 179 did it either but it's not at hand to confirm.Years ago I made up a little box with a latching relay, 9 volt battery and a piezo buzzer for testing as one example that a gate controller received a momentary contact from an access control system, this was handy whereby we would not have to walk out to the gate to visually inspect a meter and could hear the buzzer from a distance to know that the unit was triggered, we also used it for rudimentary cable testing on occasion but now have dedicated equipment for these applications, the little box went missing so I think that one of the boys left it somewhere and we have been using certain meters to do the same thing.So in summary if anyone else has a Fluke 83 can you put it in ohms mode and press min-max and let me know if your continuity buzzer activates immediately with the probes open even though the continuity symbol is not displayed, mine does and it seems a bit strange.Many ThanksMuttley

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 11:24:04 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 19, 2015, 02:07:33 amMuttley, unfortunately I do not have a Fluke 83, but my 179 operates as you remember - i.e., when Min/Max is on Min position, the buzzer beeps only while the probes are shorted. No continuous beep happens.

author: ModemHead
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 12:00:59 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 19, 2015, 02:07:33 amEvery 80-series I and series III meter I have here (83-I, 87-I, 83-III, 87-III) does exactly that. There is some non-zero threshold for turning the beeper off, I noted that 100 ohms will silence it while in the 400 ohm range.On the other hand, my 87-V does not, engaging min-max in continuity mode does not cancel the continuity mode or activate the beeper, it just displays the min and max ohms values.

author: KGB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 05:11:16 pm
content: There is nothing strange. In MIN / MAX (RECORD) mode (which also means a fixed range) when overload (OL) occurs, the meter beeps. In all modes, volts-, current-, diode-, capacitance- and even resistance mode.Any value is in the measuring range will turning the beeper off, so the zero also.Cheers.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2015, 04:17:30 am
content: Quote from: ModemHead on September 19, 2015, 12:00:59 pmThanks ModemHead, I wasn't sure as no other meter that I can recall does this and as KGB pointed out below it is simply indicating that the meter is Out of Limit or in Over Load which in turn warns the user by way of the piezo, once a DUT is applied it goes away or can be disabled by holding the continuity button on power up to turn off audible alerts.Quote from: KGB on September 19, 2015, 05:11:16 pmThanks KGB, as I am not familiar with this particular meter and initially I thought that it may have been a fault but after further testing on a number of selections you were correct that it was simply an alert event and nothing to do with the continuity buzzer whatsoever.Many ThanksMuttley

author: GeekPriest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 03:08:25 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 19, 2015, 06:14:45 pmRight now, I'm working with an Amprobe AM-130 (Brymen something), a Greenlee DM-820A (Brymen BM827s), and a Fluke 77-IV that I repaired. Both the Amprobe and Fluke have been great to use thus far. The DM-820A is really nice, too, but its large size almost makes it more of a bench meter.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 04:48:12 pm
content: Can someone please clarify something for me regarding the differences between the Greenlee DM860 and the Brymen BM867 multimeters. Both these meters are quite difficult to find in the U.K., it seems however one store is selling the Greenlee DM860 for over £300, whilst the Brymen BM867 is available for under £150 from Ebay.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301480585343?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 05:55:02 pm
content: Greenlee's DM-860 (or DM-860-C) is a BM859 (checkhere)To make things a bit more confusing, Greenlee'sDM-860Ais a Brymen's BM869, which are more featured and have better specs and features.Check Wytnucls'nice spreadsheetfor specs.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 08:00:20 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 22, 2015, 05:55:02 pmOkay, thanks for that, I was actually trying to understand the price differential.Check this out, yet another model variation:http://www.rapidonline.com/Test-Measurement/GreenLee-DM-860A-Digital-Multimeter-57-4450

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2015, 02:34:28 am
content: There is another discussion around here that hints the price difference is due to the lifetime warranty of the Greenlee. However, AFAIR Lightages never received a reply from Greenlee about what "lifetime" means to them. It could be lifetime of the equipment, lifetime of the product line, or something else.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2015, 04:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: commie on September 22, 2015, 08:00:20 pmThat one is the same as the BM869, which you can get for 145.80 at the time of typing this from TME (here).Main difference between it and the older BM859, is the newer BM869 got a dual display in place of the single.