Simple design urgent run. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:10:26 pm
content: Hello Everyone,At work we are looking at a simple design, literally an Arduino nano style board with usb and rs485 full duplex output (a switch between them)We probibly need about 1000-1500 of them.Realistically, how quickly could they be made, who could make them and at what kind of cost? (board manufacturer and assembly) It would be a simple 2 layer board. I'm still working on the layout.I know I haven't given much, but what kind of leadtimes and costs are expected of this kind of thing if anyone hazards a guess?All SMD and a few basic connectors thru-hole.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:17:47 pm
content: Might help if you gave your location and target leadtime.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:24:55 pm
content: PCBShopper.comhas a price comparison calculator for PCB Assembly now (it has long has a comparison calculator for manufacturing). There are fewer companies in the assembly calculator, mainly because few companies have online quote forms for assembly. But you can get an idea of prices and lead times.Disclosure: I run PCBShopper.- Bob

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:27:20 pm
content: I'm in the UK target leadtime... 2 - 3 weeks? possibly more, I need to discuss with the customer in greater detail.

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:33:58 pm
content: I stalked your post-history, and figured out that you're in the UK..Quote from: TCWilliamson on May 12, 2016, 07:10:26 pm2 days is usually the fastest you can get a PCB in, unless you live close to a manufacturer.Assembly, I don't know..Quote from: TCWilliamson on May 12, 2016, 07:10:26 pmLots of companies can do this. However, lead-time is directly relative to price. It also determines who you can use.Example prices (PCB only):1500 nano-sized boards, 2 layers, 1500pcs. 2-day service: ~2400 euroSame thing, but a 7-day service: ~960 euro( I grabbed the prices from eurocircuits online calculator )As for assembly, have you though about who sources the parts, and from where? Do you have second-sources? (1500pcs of some things can clean out a single distributors stock)

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: stmdude on May 12, 2016, 07:33:58 pmThe components are very common. ATMEGA and a few MAX485 chips.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 08:33:09 pm
content: Any component can be problematic when bought in quantities. I'd start with ordering the parts today!

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 08:56:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 12, 2016, 08:33:09 pmI have seen all the key distributors stocking them in quantities easily 10 times what I need. I need to finish off the design first...I shall continue this tomorrow. The current prototype is just a nano with two MAX485 chips (likely fake) on a board. I guess the next stage is to move the entire design onto the board itself.I need to check on lead-time requirements as I'm concerned if I have the time for a basic prototype board or if it's worth going straight to the production run and just soldering any bodges needed.]It's a simple design so I don't think any will be needed.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 09:03:55 pm
content: Leadtime-wise anything under 2 weeks would get tricky unless you have a really good relationship with a subcontractor that happens to have the capacity.And that assumes you're sufficiently comfortable with the design, and experienced enough in designing for manufacture that you don't need a prototype and your board is ready to run with no issues and all parts are ex-stock, in production packaging at one of the main disties.If you really want it fast it's going to cost what it costs - you don't have time to dick around getting quotes for everything.As soon as customers start asking for a table of time/cost/quantity options, walk away.I've done 1 week in the past, but got lucky with production availability, and much lower qty That's why I bought a pick & place machine.If you have through-hole, , try to do SMD and TH all on one side, so it can be flowsoldered - not so many places have selective solder machines. Of course manual soldering is an option, but slower.I normally tell customers 4-6 weeks before anything starts costing more, 2-3 weeks for smaller qtys.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 09:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: TCWilliamson on May 12, 2016, 08:56:37 pmsoldering bodges on 1500 boards ?With that qty, it's worth a couple of days for a fast handbuilt proto.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 09:10:29 pm
content: Oh and if you do find a subcontractor that will turn it round quickly, does a good job at a reasonable price, let me know. Seriously.My usual assembler has just been bought out, and isn't taking on new jobs for 6 months so I'm on the lookout for a new place.And don't forget to think about how you're going to program & test 1500 boards.BTW whereabouts in the UK are you?

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 11:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 12, 2016, 09:10:29 pmWe are over in Bournemouth. We haven't done any proper manufacturing like this before. I'm having to shunt most of this myself (Other employees want to use already built hardware that poses it's own challenges that may be a nightmare) I need to discuss with the customer tomorrow in terms of delivery schedules in what they want.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 11:41:21 pm
content: HiYou can get it done in under 24 hours if you want to pay enough and set it all up. That might be $100,000, but if you *really* need fast, it can be done. How crazy is your need? Put another way, is a month ok?Bob

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 07:12:46 am
content: Quote from: TCWilliamson on May 12, 2016, 11:03:31 pmMight be worth talking to Soumac, who are pretty close to youhttp://www.soumac.co.ukUsed them a few years ago when I needed some 400x600mm boards assembling, at the time they were the only UK place I could find that could do it. No complaints but ISTR when I had them quote for normal jobs subsequently they were more expensive than my normal place.Nothing beats going down to see a subcontractor face to face.A consistent issue I have with subcontractors is that very few are set up to turn stuff round really quickly - most of my jobs are small enough that even if I offered to pay double or more, it's still peanuts to them.QuoteFor a qty of 1500, it's an absolute no-brainer to build exactly what you need rather than making do with the nearest off-the-shelf product and modifying, both in terms of time, and probably cost as well.The thing you really need to get to the bottom of is how urgent it actually is. Time buys you a lot of options to do it properly, shop around , prototype it so production runs smoothly.I find that asking "Do you want it quick or do you want it done right ?" tends to make customers stop and think when they start wanting silly turnround times.

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 08:39:14 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 13, 2016, 07:12:46 amYou raise some good points there, I am working with a breadboarded version (arduno nano and two MAX485 daughter boards.)I will need to do a bit of poking about, Upon further review, just under 900 boards will need to be made. We are going to work on getting a working prototype out to the company today before looking at the larger production run.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 12:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 12, 2016, 09:10:29 pmMike, FWIW I can recommend my assembler (who I've used for over five years): HCD in Letchworthhttp://www.hcduk.com/.I've done many 1k board runs with them, my boards go down to 0402, but they can do 0201 and I believe 01005, and they have BGA inspection facilities. Nothing like being able to press the flesh, and they're only an hour or so away for me in case of any problems, I would imagine a similar distance for you. They are a small outfit, maybe about 20 FTEs.Although they will source parts for you, I do free issue with them.Edit: to the OP, I know they will do short notice runs, but as has been already stated, it'll cost what it costs.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 01:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on May 13, 2016, 12:45:24 pm..or go down and pick up stuff hot out of the oven, and if necessary fight off the inspection guy that doesn't understand "I need them TODAY. I'll fix any issues"Thanks - have vaguely heard of them, and they're just round the corner from my normal PCB supplier, which is handy.Do they have more than one P&P line ?Are they one of those places that knocks off at Lunchtime on a Friday? - seems common in this industry here

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 03:05:29 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 13, 2016, 01:24:19 pmYes, they have several machines. And yes, there does seem to be an early Friday thing going on, but equally I know they work at weekends when one of those quick turnaround jobs comes in. They're just reasonable people to deal with. Having been burned badly a couple of times both onshore and offshore by assembly houses, I am happy to recommend them. You just need to make sure your work is in their radar by calling them up every few days, or you risk delay if some other job else slips itself in or a machine goes belly up, I've had that a couple of times. Just make it easy for them to keep communication.They will do same day delivery too which is pretty handy when you have your own urgent orders to fulfil and are doing your own final test and assembly, although they'll also do that for you if you want. I'm just a control freak, I have to satisfy myself that what I send out works. I've done ~20k boards though them. They came as a personal recommendation to me.

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 05:44:59 pm
content: Huge thanks for all your input however Upper management has forced my hand in terms of risk and we are going back to an existing product with a more complex programming system (5 modules with different programs rather then 5 unprogrammed modules and one single program on a control board)I shall be bookmarkthing this thread as I plan to push to develop this board, or rather a similar one in the future and it will come in handy!Cheers for the help.