DSOX1204G 200Mhz vs Used MSO3014A (Calibrated in 2018) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 04:24:37 am
content: Apologies if this a poor question for this forum, but I was about to pull the trigger on a Keysight DSOX1204G when I happened to see a local seller offering a supposedly new MSOX3014A with a calibration certificate from 2008 for $2800. Since it's only a few hundred more, does anyone have any perspective on whether I should just buy the MSOX3014A? I definitely don't need the scope's full capabilities right now, and honestly the only thing that I would realistically use right off the bat is the larger screen. Not sure whether the warranty will hold, and what customer support looks like with a 2nd hand device. Overall, the MSOX3014A looks like it's in quality condition, but I would need to dig into it a bit more.I appreciate any advice. Thanks!EDIT: Calibrated in 2018

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 04:54:44 am
content: Seems like at $2800 the MSO3014A is going to be more like 2x the price of the DSOX1204G rather than just a few hundred $ more. On the other hand the MSO3014A is a lot more scope as it is 2 series up the line (but some of the gap is closed by the 1204G being a newer model). As you say it might come down to how much you want the extra capabilities for the extra price. One thing to consider is whatever software and accessories come with the MSO3014A. If it happens to come with a bunch of the hardware and software options to make the full MSO (analog plus digital signal) capabilities sing and it’s in good condition and all operating to spec, the MSO3014A is a lot scope. Fully optioned the new price on a 3014A is/was quite a bit more than a fully optioned 1204G. Having said that, and not to confuse matters, for about the same price as the 1204G you could buy a new Siglent that would begin to approach the features and potentially exceed some of the performance and features of the 3014A.In your budget range you should probably enjoy the scope research process awhile longer to see some more choices and the tradeoffs. No doubt you will get a fair amount of advice here in response to your inquiry.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 05:00:04 am
content: Might be some useful info in here (T being the successor to A):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-701-keysight-3000t-oscilloscope-review/msg582729/#msg582729

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 05:01:54 am
content: @Electro Fan. I appreciate the insight. The price comparison was against a fully optioned DSOX1204G 200MHz BW (apologies if that wasn't clear).As for the other scopes, the fan scope these days seems to be the Siglent SDS2104X Plus. Unfortunately, I had the chance to use the 2104X and it honestly just felt subpar. I definitely don't want to start a flamewar, and I can't really point to any specific spec to say that the Keysight is better. By all accounts, it's actually worse on paper....but if just feels so rightI have also used a number of scopes for work, and I just like Keysight (granted a much higher tier of Keysight at work). Great UX, intuitive controls, polished product. It's hard to beat. Sucks that it command such a premium, butI'm open to hearing about SDS2104X Plus experiences, but I'm not sure that a spec-"off" will convince me. If anyone has converted to Siglent, I'd love to hear about it.Afaik, the MSO3014A I'm looking at does not come with any software or hardware options beyond the 100 MHz BW and, of course, the logic probe + requisite unlocked software that follows an MSO scope.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 05:19:42 am
content: Yep, the Siglent 2104X Plus is pretty much the ~$1300 (with discount) reference scope around here. Some long threads and more posts about it every day. But it’s a personal preference thing when it comes to the UI. I wasn’t sure from your post - does the 3014A include the digital logic probe and some of the MSO software?

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 05:22:15 am
content: Yep. Comes with the probe and MSO software.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 05:41:25 am
content: It’s going to be interesting to see how your affinity for one or the other of the Keysight/Agilent scopes holds up against the impending avalanche of input from Siglent enthusiasts. I fully get where you are coming from especially since you are familiar with Keysight at work. I’d say hold your ground, keep an open mind, and see where this thread takes you. Enjoy the process and congrats on your scope whichever way you go.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 08:38:54 am
content: If the MSO3014A is in your price range, I would go for it.It can be hacked to liberate all options (including the function generator) and 200MHz easily. And if you change some smd passive components, it can be upgraded to 500MHz.It's a very good, responsive, nice to use scope. You'll have 50ohms inputs, active probe possibilities, fast waveform updates, etc.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 12:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: erwets on October 27, 2021, 04:24:37 amMSOX3014A is much more capable scope than DSOX1204G.But if you don't plan to hack it, make sure to check what software options you get with it. DSOX1204G comes with protocol decodes for free, while ALL of those options are paid for options on 3000A series.I warn you not to consider conversion to 500MHz to be trivial, it is not for the faint hearted, and requires good skills and equipment. You have to decide what would be your risk appetite for that. But forum has several topics where people understood (wrongly) that it would be trivial and now have broken scopes.There are other scopes that can be had for the money. It all depends what you do with the scope and how you use it. If you need digital emulation of work with the CRT scope, Keysight does that best. If you need signal analysis capabilities, Infiniivision scopes are NOT it.As a side note, high end PC based Keysights are more similar to LeCroy and R&S touch screen PC based scopes concept than to embedded Infiniivision series.

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 09:19:30 pm
content: Thanks for the inputQuote from: erwets on October 27, 2021, 04:24:37 amYeah, it is very unlikely that I will perform any hardware upgrades. I will, however, hack the scope to open up 200MHz BW (as well as any software features I can unlock, including all possible decodes).Quote from: erwets on October 27, 2021, 04:24:37 amWhat would you recommend that competes with the MSOX3014A at the ~$3k USD price range? I don't have an unlimited budget, but budget is also not my primary concern.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 09:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 27, 2021, 12:01:17 pmI never heard this before. Could you share links to topics where scopes were broken during the hardware mod?Be trivial or not, of course, depends of the available tools and skills. What have to be done is replace one 1206 resistor and thirty 0603 components (resistors, capacitors and inductors). It can be trivial if you have the tools and skills, but can be impossible if you have not.(Component list and board photos:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg987126/#msg987126)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 09:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on October 27, 2021, 09:22:22 pmSorry I'm not gonna search for you, but just today I read one where one user makes notes that he ripped pads from the board doing mods on his EDU scope and what the error was, while trying to help another one that tried to do hack himself and now scope doesn't work.Truth is that most people that tried and failed are not going to trumpet it all proud here... They are not going to like to talk about it....Hardware modifications are ALWAYS risky, from ESD damage, to soldering problems, or even stupid screwdriver that slips and plows off dozen of tiny, tiny 0201 components from the board with tiniest touch... I'm not saying don't, and not saying it is impossible, but there is a risk to damage something that you paid several thousands and it worked before you went in because 10 guys in the back were yelling "beer, beer, beer..." and you thought it was easy.You cannot base you recommendations as to how easy it is when you look at some people here that actually repair those scopes on daily basis (like The Steve) and someone I don't know and have no clue of his skill level. OP might be most skillful engineer that works for NASA or complete beginner. We don't know.In that case I like to err on the safe side...I don't think people should be gallant or irresponsible with other people's money.

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 10:10:34 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 27, 2021, 09:49:15 pmOr possibly even both!

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 10:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 27, 2021, 09:49:15 pmI agree, we can't judge the OP or anyone capabilities to perform this hardware mod.We can be objective explaining what have to be done: replace one 1204 resistor and 30 other 0603 components.If the person never replaced 0603 components before, it is better to not try to learn it in a 3K scope, of course...EDIT: Regarding a link to posts with broken scopes after mods tried, I only asked because I use to follow DSOX3K topics and never read such thing. And as you said "several topics", I asked. But forget it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 10:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: erwets on October 27, 2021, 04:24:37 amWhat other scopes did you look at? The R&S RTB2004 could be an interesting option for you as well (used or new). Personally I'm not impressed by Keysight's UI when you have to use more advanced features like math and protocol decoding. Going through the menus is a rather tedious process using the buttons and rotary knob. Also the memory depth on the Keysight scopes is super tiny compared to the competition (especially when you take into account that in a normal use case you end up with 1/4th of the memory per channel).

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 10:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: erwets on October 27, 2021, 05:01:54 amFrom what I've seen (and I've not used one of the Keysight scopes myself, so I can't say for sure), the Keysight killseverythingon responsiveness of the controls. Nothing else beats it, though some (such as the Instek GDS-1000B and GDS-2000E series) come close when the scope isn't under high load.The Siglent 2000X+ scope is an incredible scope for its price range. But good as it is, there's no way it can match a Keysight 3000 series scope except perhaps for noise floor. This shouldn't be a surprise, seeing how the Keysight is nearly 4 times the price without serial decoding, and 5 times the price with it.If you can afford it and it meets your needs for bandwidth, noise floor, etc., then the Keysight 3000 looks like it should be an excellent way to go. Its new price is nearly twice what you're being asked to pay, and nothing else compares in responsiveness. But make sure that it isfullyfunctional before committing the funds. I'm surprised that the seller is selling this one for this kind of price, and it makes me wonder if perhaps something is broken.

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 11:08:17 pm
content: Thanks for the insights!Quote from: kcbrown on October 27, 2021, 10:47:46 pmYes, I'm hesitant for this very reason, otherwise I would have probably purchased it already. I do not know the party selling the scope, and I'm suspicious by nature. I'm writing down all the things I would want to test before finalizing the deal, but it's hard to really check everything off the list. It would be pretty upsetting if I found out something was pretty off within the first 2 months of usage.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 12:01:20 am
content: Quote from: erwets on October 27, 2021, 11:08:17 pmSelf-test "80% confidence level that the oscilloscope is operating properly". Or bring the cables to run a self-calibration, that will shake out any problems with the analog paths.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 12:03:18 am
content: Quote from: erwets on October 27, 2021, 11:08:17 pmWell, fortunately, you can tell pretty much everything about the basic functionality of the scope with the probe calibration signal. Just using that will allow you to test the signal inputs, the triggering system, the acquisition system, the CPU, the display, etc., perhaps even up to and including the bandwidth of the channel. It's a 4 channel scope, and it's highly unlikely that the bandwidth of all channels would somehow be compromised, so if the signal looks the same (particularly at the corners of the square wave) across all channels then they're likely to be good to go in terms of the bandwidth. This presumes that the square wave itself has at least one transition that's fast enough to exceed the input bandwidth.I have to second the notion of using the scope's self-calibration as a test, too.If all of that works, then the only question left would be the digital inputs, the external trigger input, and the signal generator.If this scope isn't being supplied with the digital MSO probes then you'll have no good way of testing the digital inputs, so the most you'll likely be able to do is a visual inspection of the pins of the socket.For the external trigger input, you'd need a signal generator or something to test that.And obviously, you can't test the signal generator unless it's enabled (but if it is, then you can test that directly and then use it to test the external trigger input).Oh, and you'll want to test all the knobs and buttons on the front panel to make sure they work, and perhaps the USB connectors as well.Anyway, testing the scope should be relatively straightforward, all in all.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 12:34:56 am
content: Quote from: erwets on October 27, 2021, 04:24:37 amWell first, perhaps I missed it but I see no mention of what you plan on doing with the scope. So what is your use case--what for, how often, etc?Secondly, are you going to be OK with a lot less memory than more modern scope have? And yes, whether NOS or current new, those are both 'older' models.Third, the decade-plus old scope is not going to have any warranty and given Keysight's tendencies lately, I'm pretty sure you're going to be paying your money and taking your chances. If you were getting something truly remarkable, perhaps that would be OK, but are you? I don't know--what makes that particular scope so attractive to you other than that it seems very nice and was expensive new?

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 04:25:13 am
content: Wow, your response alerted me to a glaring error in my title.The scope was purchased (and last calibrated) in 2008. Editing my initial post. Thanks!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 04:56:36 am
content: Quote from: erwets on October 28, 2021, 04:25:13 am??Apparently I don't know my HPAK models/dates, but I had a look and it seems the MSOX3014A (is that the one?) dates from 2014 or so. So less old (model wise) than 2008. Still a lot less memory, so what would your main use be?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 05:02:22 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on October 27, 2021, 10:47:46 pm200X the memory.

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 06:31:17 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 28, 2021, 04:56:36 amRealistically it’s a hobby scope, so the use cases are incredibly varied. I’ve been avoiding answering the question because there isn’t really a single use case. Here is a glance at my current and recently finished projects:1. Design and build of a series of microphones for studio recording. I’d like a dso that preforms very well as a “crt emulator.”2. Fixing a number of issues with some small MCU-driven autonomous vehicles (with hard realtime requirements) containing some buggy critical RFIC components. This also includes some protocol debugging, although here I care about the underlying signal since it seems some thresholds are not being met. For any LA issues, I would just use my Saleae.3. Design and build of some measurement devices intended for use on the bottom of hulls of container ships.I want something that’s fun and enjoyable to use, and which allows me to focus on my problem domain, not the scope.A suggestion was made for the RTB2004, and if I could find a deal for the R2K-COM4 bundle (which is the whole bundle afaik), I would consider it. But ~$4.5k after tax is just too much.The MSO3014A is appealing because I could ostensibly grow into it, should some project come up that demands its higher feature set. But if I’m being honest, I doubt I’ll ever really pay for the upgrade.The DSO1204G is basically the minimum scope that suits my various hobby needs while also “feeing nice” in my opinion.Totally open to other suggestions.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 06:35:44 am
content: Maybe the date of the MSOX3014A was 2018, not 2008?And nice scope, I don't think you'd ever be sorry you got it.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 08:10:17 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 28, 2021, 05:02:22 amYeah, there is that. I have to wonder how much of a difference that makes in the analog domain. Guess it just depends on the problem you're attempting to diagnose. For digital, having tons of memory is incredibly useful, especially when it's automatically segmented the way the Siglent does it. Either way, though, the real question is whether or not the advantages of the 2000X+ over the Keysight outweigh the disadvantages, and that's obviously going to depend on the use cases. A million points isn't all that large these days, but that's only in comparison with other scopes. Considered by itself, a million points isn't terrible. You can do a lot with it.But if digital is what his focus would be, then the Keysight could well be the wrong scope anyway because the MSO option is what would really make the difference for anything other than serial decoding (and even if you're doing serial decoding, having the MSO option is useful for freeing up your analog channels for other things).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 09:19:31 am
content: Memory is not the problem.Problem is that you have 4GS/s that is not 4GS anymore as soon as you use any timebase longer than 50us/div. And then drops rapidly. If you set timebase for 2ms/div (to look at somethin 20 ms long) it takes nosedive to 40MS/s.. At that timebase, if you have anything higher than 20 MHz in signal it will alias and show weird artefacts in signal that aren't there.If you want to look at PSU startup, at say 10ms/div (for 100ms total) you will basically have 20MS/s sampling rate that will make it a 10 MHz oscilloscope without antialiasing filter on the input..If you want to look at 10 MHz oscillator startup for first 200ms you literally cannot do that. See attachments..That memory advantage combined with 500uV/div sensitivity and low noise (compared to 4 mV/div on 3000A) makes SDS2000X+ actually much more capable for slow, low level stuff.OTOH, Rigol MSOX5000, has similar sensitivity and noise as Keysight all while having 4 Math channels and 4 decode channels, and tons of memory too.. Also, quite fast retrigger rate.I would look at least at those two just to make sure to understand what can be had for the 1000-1500 USD, new and with warranty.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 10:21:16 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 28, 2021, 09:19:31 amWell, seeing how the actual sample rate ultimately determines the maximum frequency you can reconstruct anyway, wouldn't they use a low-pass filter with a variable upper frequency on the input in order to eliminate the aliasing you're talking about? I mean, this is an issue you'd have even on the SDS2000X series. Once you make the timebase long enough you can't maintain the native sample rate. The additional memory helps, of course, but doesn't eliminate the issue.QuoteYep this is true.No doubt more memory gets you more flexibility, and this is a good point as to how. It's really a question of how often you're likely to run into such issues.QuoteYeah, no doubt. The SDS2000X+ is really quite an amazing piece of equipment.If only it had a UI as responsive as the Keysight.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 11:24:44 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on October 28, 2021, 10:21:16 amSome users who are more familiar with other brands of scopes fear aliasing as its pretty easy to produce. But... its very hard to get the Keysight/Agilent meagzoom scopes to show aliasing artefacts as their front end filtering and decimation "just work" (invisibly and without any controls, prioritising maximum sample rate possible at all times).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 11:51:48 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 28, 2021, 11:24:44 amYou are correct, Keysight uses all kinds of neat tricks, and it kinda deals with some aliasing artefacts. For instance it will silently use Peak detect to extract outside envelope of AM modulated signal that should alias. But that will be only screen display, if you press zoom, zoom will show nonsense. But, still, better than others.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 02:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on October 28, 2021, 10:21:16 amYou never eliminate the issue, but making it 200X better goes a long way! Even the $500 SDS1104X-E can do up to aone million Xzoom, something the Keysight models here won't despite their 'MegaZOOM' trademark.QuotePerhaps, but I don't understand making significant sacrifices in actual capability for that 'luxury feel' UX, especially for someone spending their own money. My older Tek DSO has a UI that is several orders of magnitude less obtuse than the Siglent, but if I had to choose between them there would be no contest--I'll live with some amusing quirks to get the additional capability. I'm not dismissing the issue--setting up FFT on the Siglent is like a scope comedy skit next to the Tek. The Keysight (and Tek) models may have other advantages, but I don't know them well enough to comment.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 03:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: erwets on October 28, 2021, 06:31:17 amThat's quite a few indications that you like the way the Keysights operate and that it is important to you.As for your use cases, the only one that I think there might be an issue are the microphones, where sensitivity and noise floor may be important. Quite honestly, for probably 90% of the times I need a scope, just about any scope will do, so getting something easy to use that you like, if you're willing to fork out the cash for that, seems reasonable. If I were buying a general purpose scope with someone else's money, it would be a Tek TBS2204B for $3K+.One thing that occurs to me is that for your $2800, you could buy the base Keysight DSOX1204G and the Siglent SDS2104X-Plus w/ logic probe. Then you'd have a 'nice' base scope for most of your general purpose applications and a 500MHz 200Mpt large-screen scope for special applications. This would give you an extended period of time to try things out--I find that it takes me months to really get used to a complex instrument and determine whether I like it or not. If you hate it, sell it and upgrade the Keysight.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 04:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 28, 2021, 03:59:35 pmThat is good thinking...DSOX1204G will have all "Keysight-ness" for analog CRT emulation.If you need advanced functions (some not even on 3000A) you have a SDS-2000X+..

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 07:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 28, 2021, 03:59:35 pmNot a bad idea! However, I'm not sure that the resale value of the 2104X will hold up. Any chance you have some experience in this area and/or can comment on used 2104X prices? Otherwise, I'm just going to semi-trust ebay

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 08:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: erwets on October 28, 2021, 07:40:38 pmEven old Rigol DS1054Zs are selling for 80% of new price. People love to save a buck! I think there's almost no chance that the scope would take a big hit in resale value in 6 months, although after eBay takes its cut, you won't get every penny back. But given the rate of inflation, the logic probe promo that expires Dec 31 and the scarcity of this model on eBay, you'll probably do surprisingly well if you do decide to flip it. Just wait til the new year, set your price as BIN and be patient. I would even avoid using the upgrade key that comes with the logic probe promo unless you don't have any choice--as in it comes preinstalled. Just hack it instead. That way you can sell the logic probe and key as a separate item if you want.However, I predict that once you get used to the noise floor and find the occasional uses for color temp grading and all that memory, you won't give it up so easily.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 08:09:17 pm
content: Buying something and then hoping to resell it again is a bad idea. What if Siglent decides to have a promotion and cut the price by 30%? You wouldn't be the first. No, the proper way is to get a demo unit to try before buying.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 08:09:36 pm
content: Quote from: erwets on October 28, 2021, 07:40:38 pmI am dead serious. You'll want to keep both. You'll love Keysight if you want CRT emulation. But once you try SDS2104X+ and if you give it time to learn how to use it you will want that one too, for all the stuff Keysight simply doesn't have. Really, those two combined areverypowerful combination..

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 09:11:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 28, 2021, 08:09:17 pmThere are always risks in life, but since they are already having a promotion right now, I think a sudden devaluation is unlikely. In fact, the opposite is much more likely, especially in today's very strange economic environment.Who is going to provide a demo unit for an entry-level scope?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 09:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 28, 2021, 09:11:15 pmSad for the US they don't still have both 2kX Plus promos running like we do.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 09:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 28, 2021, 09:11:15 pmI've had no problem trying a GW Instek GDS2204E for over a month.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 09:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 28, 2021, 09:20:26 pmOK, perhaps things are different there. That doesn't help here--I don't know of any dealers that will provide demos for stuff like that and the only other alternative is to abuse seller return policies, such as Amazon's 30-day period for alleged defects. Otherwise the buyer is going to be paying for shipping, perhaps in both directions. And to add to that, it appears at first glance the the MSO/AWG promotion is only available directly from Siglent. Anyway, it wouldn't matter to me--I really prefer a 6-month or longer test period because I'm only an occasional user and it takes me that long to really get used to things and discover annoyances.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 09:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on October 27, 2021, 10:47:46 pmExamples ?On work I use the HDO6000 and WR9000 from lecroy daily and of course there are some advantages between them and the SDS2K+ I got at home.But from time to time I´m surprised how less they are in relation to the price of the lecroy scopes, what general purposes concerns.So I´m curious about the advantages of the keysight.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 09:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 28, 2021, 08:09:36 pm+1I think these two would be complimentary and it’s almost always good to have two pieces of equipment to check one against the other. Both of these will suffer some depreciation after being used but there will almost for sure be some decent resale value for both. The alternative if you really just want one or the other is to arrange to have both arrive the same day/week after making sure you can return them within 2-4 weeks. My guess is having them side you might see a reason to keep both but if not you will be pretty clear on which one to return.Edit: or you might decide to send them both back and go all in on some other higher end oscilloscope.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 10:17:40 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 28, 2021, 02:39:55 pmThat's certainly true. Ultimately, though, it depends on at what point the limitations are no longer tolerable.It should be clear that despite the Keysight's limitations here, it works well enough for enough people that it sells reasonably well. And as noted by others, the Keysights do a good job of reducing (if not outright eliminating) aliasing artifacts.QuoteIt just depends on what you value and whether or not the reduction in capability will actually be a meaningful one for what you're going to be doing with it.You shouldn't underestimate the importance of a good UI. An unresponsive UI isfrustrating. Yes, you can work around it or just live with it, but as soon as you use something that's truly responsive, you'll instinctively be reluctant to go back to using the unresponsive UI. If you've got both types of instruments, the one with the unresponsive UI will be relegated to the shelf except when its capabilities are needed for the task at hand.The Keysight, for all its limitations, apparently does the job for the majority of situations. If it didn't, it wouldn't sell well at all.If Siglent fixed its UI and made it responsive, they'd clean house, because at that point there'd be no compelling reasonat allto go with something like the Keysight. I believe (without proof) that the responsiveness and polish of the Keysight is a major factor in its continuing success.QuoteThere's a difference between a UI being "quirky" (meaning, the things you have to do to get it to do something aren't necessarily obvious at a glance) and a UI beingunresponsive. The Siglent's UI is the latter under many situations. I don't have much trouble getting at things with it, but Idohave trouble getting it to see my commands more often than I'd like. It's mainly an issue with the handling of the front panel. It's far more responsive to the touchscreen than to the front panel, though it still does sometimes take more time than it should to reflect the commanded changes.EDIT, 4/2/2022: It turns out that I had hardware problems with at least the timebase encoder on the front panel, and quite possibly with some sort of connection issue between the encoder board and the rest of the scope. As such, I have to throw out all my prior experience with the front panel responsiveness of the scope, because it could easily be that I was running into a hardware issue with my scope andnotthe coding of the UI. Don't get me wrong, it's still no Keysight, but it now seems to actuallyrespondto what I tell it to do. Seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4091812/#msg4091812In any case, the point here is that the UI responsiveness is a major factor in the usability of the instrument, and usability, despite its independence from capability, has a huge effect on the willingness of the user to make use of the instrument when he has alternatives. It also has an effect on the willingness of the user to deploy the instrument for problems where it isn't strictly necessary. If the user dislikes using the instrument because of its UI, he'll refrain from using it unless he must. If the user enjoys using the instrument, he'll use it even when he doesn't have to.There's areasonApple has been so successful over the years. They understand (or at least understood) the importance of having a good UI. Keysight does as well, it seems.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 11:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 28, 2021, 09:43:12 pmThe sample rate of the Keysight far exceeds that of the Siglent: 5GS/s versus 2GS/s. The Keysight can be had in bandwidths up to 1 GHz, applicable to all 4 channels simultaneously, while the Siglent is limited to 500 MHz on two channels simultaneously. The Keysight is able to perform 1 million waveform updates per second, which is some 8x what the Siglent is capable of during normal acquisition (the Siglent has a special capture mode that can do up to 500K waveforms per second, but that's still half the Keysight's capability). The Keysight does hardware decoding of digital signals, which I'm guessing could make a difference for triggering and possibly other things. The Keysight is fast enough that it can do USB 2.0 protocol analysis at all speeds that USB 2.0 will support. I don't know that the Siglent can do that, and in any case the Siglent doesn't have the analysis tools (such as protocol decoding) for it that the Keysight does. The Keysight's mask testing speed appears reflective of its hardware-oriented nature, in that their blurb claims it can perform 270K tests per second. This is probably an order of magnitude faster than the Siglent, if not more.All that said, I suppose I should amend my statement somewhat. The scopes have different capabilities. For those that require deeper memory, the Siglent is clearly superior. For those that require a lower noise floor, the Siglent is also clearly superior. But I can't see anything else that the Siglent would be better at than the Keysight, when the Keysight is appropriately configured, while the Keysight appears to be better in several ways. Maybe I'm overlooking something. I have direct experience with the Siglent, but no direct experience with the Keysight.It should be noted that the Siglent gives youfarmore capability for the price than the Keysight. A fully decked out Keysight, new, is on the order of $20K. Few hobbyists are going to spend that kind of money on an instrument like this. And with respect to what the OP is looking at, obviously it's far less capable in terms of bandwidth as-is than the fully decked out variety. But the rest of the capabilities (save for those that are bandwidth-dependent) are a matter of the software.I do very much like the proposal of the OP getting the Siglent SDS2104X+ and a Keysight DSOX1204G. That would be a very flexible setup for the same money. If he isn't ever going to need 1 GHz bandwidth (which would require him to hack the 3014A at the hardware level), then that combination will get him as much as 500 MHz (via keygen) bandwidthandmassive memoryand, when those things aren't necessary, a very fast UI (via the Keysight).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 11:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 28, 2021, 09:30:03 pmOfcourse you need to come up with some kind of test plan you can execute in a small timespan. Just like you take a car for a test drive; take it onto the highway, take a few sharp turns, drive over bumps, see if it brakes properly, etc, etc. However that does not always rule out hidden problems which -unfortunately- Siglent and Rigol are prone to.Quote from: kcbrown on October 28, 2021, 11:10:09 pmThat clearly showsotherwise you wouldn't be so positive about it. Where it comes to the UI neither Keysight or Siglent are the best choices for non-touchscreen scopes. I used to own an Agilent MSO7104A but once I got the GW Instek GDS2204E the MSO7104A got abandoned quickly by me. The GW Instek is so much easier & efficient to work with. I sold the MSO7104A a long time ago; the GDS2204E is still used regulary.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 11:51:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 28, 2021, 11:34:47 pmPoor analogy.What asset can you leave with an equipment dealer so to take home an instrument and put it through its paces ?Best you bring a DUT and test the instrument at their premises to decide if it meets your needs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 12:03:44 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 28, 2021, 11:51:37 pmWhat do you mean? Just get a demo unit and return it when done. Same with taking a car for a test drive.QuoteA proper test of an oscilloscope takes over a day to work through. And there might also be some unforeseen outcomes that need further investigating whether it is user error or a limitation / bug in the instrument. It is not a matter of applying a few signals for 5 minutes and be done with it. Just look at the oscilloscope reviews I've done over the years. A lot of testing has gone into each of them.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 12:37:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 28, 2021, 11:34:47 pmWhat is, then, and why/how? Where the Keysight seems to do better than anything I've ever seen is with respect to UI responsiveness.EverythingI've ever seen, including the limited amount of time I've played with a 2000 series scope (when I said I had no experience at all with "the Keysight", I was referring to the specific one here), is that the UI responsiveness is instantaneous, or so close to it that it doesn't matter. Maybe there are certain circumstances under which the UI on the Keysight will lag a bit but I've never seen or heard of it.QuoteIf my experience with the GDS-1054B is any indication, the GDS2204E is going to be very responsive as well. But Ihavebeen able to make the UI on mine pretty laggy with the appropriate acquisition settings, ones that I wouldn't regard as unusual, and wouldn't expect things to be different on the GDS2204E because such things tend to bearchitecturalin nature more than anything else. Computers, and by extension these scopes, are many orders of magnitude faster than the demands of any UI, but arranging things so that the UI remains responsive under essentially all circumstances requires proper architecture from the beginning.There's more to a UI than just responsiveness, of course, and the Instek appears to be more aligned with how you think about using the instrument than your Agilent was. But at least with respect to responsiveness, I know of nothing that beats the Keysight, based on plenty of videos of people operating them combined with my (admittedly very limited) experience.There seem to be some that appear to come close, such as the Tek 5-series. Once the scope is able to respond within, say, 1/60 to 1/30 of a second, there will be hardly any more benefit to additional responsiveness.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 09:48:09 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on October 29, 2021, 12:37:32 amResponsiveness doesn't do you any good if you need to press 5 buttons versus 3 buttons on a non-Keysight scope.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 10:10:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 29, 2021, 09:48:09 amBooting a PC requires only one key and people usually complain a lot... Translation: UI and responsiveness are different things and you know it perfectly well.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 10:13:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 29, 2021, 09:48:09 amThere will always be some differences in how quickly one can get to any given piece of functionality, because different manufacturers prioritize different functionality with respect to that.That doesn't make one better than the other unconditionally, which is your claim here, but rather it makes one better than the other only with respect to certain functionality.It could well be that a non-Keysight scope is most optimal for your specific use. That's very different from the claim, which you make here, that a non-Keysight scope is the "best choice" for a non-touchscreen scope, a statement you made without any elaboration whatsoever.

author: erwets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 04:56:27 pm
content: Thanks all for the information and discussion. Since the thread began, I've been offered a deal on both the DSOX1204G (fully unlocked) and RTB2004 (with the R2K-COM4 bundle) at $1700 USD and $3400 USD, respectively. I've never used the R&S before, but it seems like a great scope, although $3400 USD is a _hefty_ price tag.I've opted not to get the used MSO3014A after inspecting it and finding some internal signs of abuse and improper care.I will likely try and borrow a friend's R&S for a few days to check it out before ordering the Keysight. If the R&S really blows me away, then I'll buy that. Does anyone have any recent experience with the RTB2004 they'd like to share?The 2104X seems nice on paper, but the last time I used it, I ran into like 3 issues alone which screwed up my workflow. This was about ~1.5 years ago, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I may consider it again since it seems to have such a pull on a number of hobbyists.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 05:56:13 pm
content: Quote from: erwets on October 29, 2021, 04:56:27 pmNote that the scope we're talking about is the 2104X+:https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/It has a touch screen and the UI for that works pretty well. With respect to the UI, its main problem is lack of responsiveness to the front panel. I've supplied a detailed (well, as much as I can reasonably manage) bug report on it here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3774821/#msg3774821That doesn't mean it'sunusable. It just means that it's not as usable under some circumstances as it should be. And the touch screen UI makes up for a lot of that, because while it might miss events from the front panel, I'veneverseen it miss events from the touch screen.Where the 2104X+ shines is in its capabilities. Solid capabilities can make up for a lot of sins.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2021, 06:14:35 pm
content: Quote from: erwets on October 29, 2021, 04:56:27 pmWrong scope, not SDS2104X but new 10" touchscreen SDS2104X+ (X Plus), very different animal.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2021, 12:42:09 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 28, 2021, 11:51:48 amDepends which acquisition mode the scope is set in, as whats on the screen and whats in the waveform acquisition memory are often completely different!Acquisition ModePlotter (screen)Memory (decimated)NormalFull BandwidthRandomPeak DetectFull BandwidthMin/MaxHigh ResolutionAnti-aliasedAnti-aliasedNone of those modes "alias", you're probably recalling zooming in on a signal outside the memory sample rate bandwidth in normal mode where the random decimation makes it look like noise. But the realtime/screen display always shows an accurate picture. The point of the phosphor emulation is to show the full path of the incoming waveform, so of course that includes the min/max points, but its not throwing away all the other points and showing solid blocks (as in the peak detect memory acquisition), it shows the relative likelihood of the waveform in the much desirable (and expensive to produce) 2D histogram.You're simplifying it down way too much, and trying to minimise the effects with sideways statements like "kinda deals with some aliasing artefacts", perhaps some examples? I've never(!) seen aliasing on those scopes, ever, even when trying to provoke it, so more like "always eliminates aliasing".Whats important to remember is that the acquisition waveform and screen display are decoupled and not produced from each other.And if you want to have the screen and/or acquisition antialiased, turn on the high resolution. Nothing silent or hidden or sneaky, all the users choice.

author: samsh
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 06:34:58 am
content: Sorry to revive this thread, but I am in almost the exact same boat here. DSOX-1204g vs used DSOX3014A vs RTB2004 but now with the Tek 2 series thrown into the mix. My main concern with the DSOX3000A is the lack of bode plot functionality, I might be better served by spending the extra for a used DSOX30014T.Pricing is a bit munted, the RTB2004 is actually only worth buying as the most expensive option fully bundled with 300 MHz bandwidth, DSOX1204g is cheapest obviously, and while the used DSOX3000 is reasonably cheap I do count a lack of probes and warranty as serious issues. I am worried I will feel disappointed with the UI on the Tek and RTB, having been first educated/used to Keysight models (I have used the Tek 2 and RTB before, the RTB was OK and the Tek was fine but did chug when doing heavy math across most of its memory).I already have a Saleae logic analyser, but the Tek and RTB both comes with MSO capabilities. Tek being upgradable to 500 MHz is cool, but I don't think I would ever actually spend that much and 200 MHz is my highest needed bandwidth (with me having access to multi GHz scopes for short bursts). Also form factor matters somewhat, which is a boon to the Tek, but frankly I think the DSOX-1204g is the cutest looking piece of test equipment I have ever seen.I would welcome any advice (and a looking back perspective from @erwets ).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 07:00:12 am
content: Quote from: samsh on November 21, 2024, 06:34:58 amThe DSOX3PWR option includes "Power Supply Rejection Ratio (PSRR)" measurement, which is a bode magnitude plotter. But like the on bode analysis on later Keysight scopes (and most/all scopes of other brands) it is nothing spectacular and you're almost always better off using an external computer to complete the task:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/faster-fra-from-scope-by-external-control-over-visa/msg2282465/#msg2282465Even dedicate a raspberry pi or similar running Jupyter notebooks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Jupyter) for such automation tasks and keep it on the back of the scope.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 07:09:40 am
content: Look into what Siglent offers in that price range..

author: samsh
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 07:33:25 am
content: External computer probably a fine solution, I have done it this way in the past (although not with a scope) but seeing the Bode plot as a feature on the DSOX1204g as a 'standard' (while not on the 3000A series) was a bit jarring (they seem to have streamlined the 'options' on it also). The interface did look clunky (1000 points or 1000 points per decade? can only start on 10^n steps, exe) on what little videos I saw of it. Integral math is the other thing I would miss with the DSOX1204g, but I do wonder how good an implementation on a scope could be (the Tek manual is well documented: its not even trapezoidal integration but that shouldn't really matter if your sample rate is fast enough).Well aware of offerings from Siglent/Rigol. The SDS2000+ is a bit cheaper than the Keysight but the SDS2104X HD is spitting distance from the R&S cost wise (and thats the loaded R&S vs base model Siglent, although I can only assume it is hackable).I would like to know if anyone has an 'updated' perspective on the Tek 2 series, now that the dust has settled a but regarding software updates exe.