Any experience with the Charm High CHMT36VA? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: HHaase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2017, 02:26:16 am
content: Been looking at picking up a basic PnP with vision. I do like a couple of the advertised features of the Charm High CHMT36VA over the Qihe TVM802A. Mainly they advertise the ability to use JEDEC standard trays, a few more feeder locations, a bit bigger PCB area, and would fit better on my workbench where I want to place it.I did contact Charm High to ask about Windows 10 compatibility. They sent me a download for the operating software, unfortunately it's not in English. I also did get an English PDF of the 55 page manual, unfortunately it's for the CHMT48VA which has the integrated touchscreen, and not the external PC that the CHMT36VA uses. Though I believe the machine is identical except for where you drive it from.For now I'll assume the PC software looks the same as the integrated touchscreen driven software, and dive into the manual that way.Anybody here have experience with the Charm High machines at all?

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2017, 02:04:15 pm
content: No experience with this particular machine, but it looks to be built from the same parts as TVM802, which I don't recommend. The feeders are identical to TVM's, which are just terrible.Jedec trays is not a special feature. You can do the same with TVM802. If you do decide to buy it, buy the one with PC controls.

author: HHaase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2017, 02:29:17 pm
content: I've seen the complaint with that style feeder on the Charm High/Qihe/Neoden. Generally it's related to the cover tape system, correct? I hate clutches for cover tape.I have a few ideas already to improve that situation. Driving them all with a single motor, and depending on the clutches, is a lost cause. I'm considering more of a tension arm system similar to what the old UIC axial sequencer at work uses. Simple and effective, and should be easy to adapt in since it doesn't require any kind of external control.-Hans

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2017, 03:20:29 pm
content: Not only cover tape.I already tried what you want to do. I built a new peeling mechanism and new feeder block. That part was fixed, but there are more problems, both in feeder and in other parts of the machine.Bottom line, if you want to tinker and play with it, it can be a fun. For real work it is just constant frustration and torture.

author: HHaase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2017, 05:51:08 pm
content: Totally get what you're saying, and I'm not expecting the world from these machines. Mainly just something to help me start transitioning from thru-hole hand soldering, so I can start doing a bit more complex designs. At current I have no need to go smaller than 0603's, and zero need for .5 pitch QFN's or anything like that. When the time comes for parts of that nature I'll be looking at more significant machines hopefully.I'm also totally aware there's going to be some challenges when it comes to long term usability. Feeders and vacuum system look to be the biggest issues right from the start. At the same time, you'd be surprised how often you see even big industrial market machines with similar issues. I can't name names, but at my full-time we just had a very significant piece of equipment show up, well into 6 figures, and the amount of modifications we've already had to perform is staggering. This was WITH a factory tech on-site to do the install. Parts that were of incompatible size, expensive options missing but paid for, 3rd party ancillary systems that were sourced via the 1st party manufacturer but weren't integrated properly, incompatible sensors, hell the whole thing was inches out of square. So these are challenges I'm used to seeing.As to the Charm-High software, I finally got it installed and running, albeit in Chinese. Comparing to the user manual that I received it looks like it's just a PC driven version of the existing software used in the imbedded machines. All the menus work the same and look the same. So it will let me examine in more detail how it works and what options there are. I'll have to pull up some videos of the Qihe and Neoden machines to see how similar it all is.-Hans

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2017, 06:01:56 pm
content: Interesting story!

author: x0001346
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 01:47:22 am
content: Sorry for this post not being entirely related with your initial post.I received my CHMT36 last week and so far I'm quite happy with it.After a few days experimenting with it I was able to get acceptable results.The CHMT36 is supposed to work standalone but it has an USB port, however it came without any software, I was wondering if it could be connected to an external PC, that could be helpful specially when preparing the machine for a batch.Any chance you could share the software so I could test to see if it works with my model?

author: richardlawson1489
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 01:50:21 pm
content: I really don't have any personal experience with this machine but from the reviews on site and this forum I think you should go for some alternative options.

author: HHaase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 11:13:32 pm
content: Shoot me a PM, and I'll see if I can get it to you.All in Chinese though, so not sure how usable it will be for you. Looks to be exactly the same as the software via the screen on the machine.

author: technotronix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 09:18:53 am
content: Do you have any alternative option in your mind?

author: HHaase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 06:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: technotronix on February 24, 2017, 09:18:53 amI'm also looking into the Qihe TVM802A or TVM802B, which looks in the same range of capabilities, and only a few differences.Also looked into the Firepick, Visionbot, LightPlacer, Red Frog, and a few others. But these all had issues that took them off the list for me.-Hans

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 10:17:29 am
content: Some blog posts from Sparkfun on the CHMT36VA :https://www.sparkfun.com/sparkx/blog/2586

author: 1276-2449-1-ND
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 06:05:32 pm
content: I got one of these a couple weeks ago.I was a bit worried from all the talk about it here, but it hit the sweet spot for price/functionality and deemed worth the risk.It turned out all the talk was BS. I have no issues with the feeders (you know you can adjust the tension, right?) or anything else that couldn't be solved with a quick tweak to the configuration. It's a great, solid machine -- though with the usual craptastic software. Fortunately the software runs on your computer so it's easy to edit the configuration and work files to get more out of the machine (like way more component feeders.)It took no time at all to get going -- I'm already doing production runs.I've been taking photos and notes and will eventually get around to posting about it.

author: Gary.M
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 02:31:09 am
content: Please do update us with your experience...

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2018, 01:31:28 am
content: I'm running a CHMT48VB now (built in PC version) since it had a good deal on Aliexpress. Shipping was a huge crate, but free DHL. Poor DHL guy was not really ready for it.Some findings:- Basically uses the same block feeders of the TVM802 and similar machines. There is a pull pin solenoid which advances the tape before picking. They include two spares in the box ... wonder why- Loading feeders is slow and fiddly until you get a better hang of it. Tape peel tension is everything - and friction bars due take some time to dial in for the tape being used (too tight and you feed on every block feed, too loose and mispicks all day long).- It can place 0603 sized parts all day long with nearly zero problems. This is why I really bought it - jam in tons of passives on a PCB. I will happily place the 1-5 ICs by hand for my workload.- It has issues feeding some larger IC plastic tapes, at least in the 30 minutes I toyed with it - the individual pockets don't glide smoothly through the blocks at times. I've gotten good success, but its a lot more temperamental than I would like. I've mainly focused on passive mounting as these are in reels for me. I'm actually hunting through to find the cheapest scrap ICs I can to burn through to dial this in (used a reject cut tape segment already).- It can place Luxeon Z LEDs very well if you slow the machine down further - these parts tend to bounce in their plastic tapes so you end up with the occasional upside down LED until you edit the placement file to slow the feed to a much lower value. (Full speed feed is pretty ludicrous for this machine type in my opinion, always slow the feed part down).- I've placed some connectors that are on the max width feeder and about 5mm high - surprisingly no issues, but due to the two heads and limited feeder blocks here isn't a great use of the machine unless you just have a ton of connector boards. Since connectors tend to have holes that break the vacuum, you also need to turn off vacuum detect.- Vision for components has fixed nearly every mis-rotation and crooked pick. I get a higher success rate compared to hand placement running Luxeon Z based boards through this setup (its very easy to badly place these LEDs and end up with shorts in the solder).- There are lots of software bugs. Its very prone to do dumb things like drop parts right on top of the feeder block if it is holding a part on head 1 and gets a mispick on head 2 - it will freeze there, and just dump the first head on the floor but also not remember it did this, and then place a "blank" on the board later. I'm writing some scripts to generate the .dpv files for parts loaded on the machine instead of running it through their PC software (which is even more buggy and doesn't expose half the options you can actually set).For the <$5k total spent, the machine is far from perfect, but the next level up is both bigger and more expensive once you outfit it with the Yamaha feeders (and the knockoff feeders have their own problems, which I guess at least are removable). Neoden feeders are also not problem free by any means. Since my workflow is very much small batch, where I'd like to avoid hand placing 20-100 0603 and LED parts all over the board, its been working out well.Would I buy it again? So far yes, but would strongly look at the non-block feeder models as well.