australia nuclear easter egg hunt? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 07:39:30 am
content: Given that this is an Australian forum, and people might have some equipment,https://slashdot.org/story/23/01/28/0123235/missing-radioactive-capsule-sparks-urgent-health-alert-in-western-australiaNever thought I would see ROTLD 2 come to life

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 09:27:50 am
content: The article has a bit of a Simpsons vibe. A 6mm x 8mm capsule falling of a truck through a bolt hole.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 10:03:22 am
content: needs lockwire, or a cotter pin. Why do I have a feeling the wheels of trolly cart are better secured then radioactive material?they should also put a flange on it, so its not tiny. IDK What they were thinking. A square flange would prevent it from rolling. And it should be placed so that if a bolt falls out, it would need to over come gravity. Why is it capable of falling out?I guess messing with the shape makes it easier to breach or misuse/pry/force. But seriously, cotter pin, lock wire, gravity. Radioactive materials are a dismal problem. Transport fixture where its upside down during transport.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 11:14:12 am
content: 6mm x 8mm and it fell off the truck somewhere along it's 1400km journey.I permananly lose bigger things that fall off the front of my bench!

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 11:30:07 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on January 28, 2023, 11:14:12 amBut are these things radioactive

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 12:24:18 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 28, 2023, 12:11:43 pmThat's been done before using scintillator GR detectors and a long slow drive down the road with someone watching the GR counts.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 12:37:29 pm
content: So what happened is... a 'road warrior' road train ran over the capsule on a hot day, capturing it in the tire tread. Which means the capsule could now be anywhere between Perth and Brisbane.Mad Max: Atomic Road

author: redkitedesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 01:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 28, 2023, 10:03:22 amI've driven that 1400km road. Things a lot bigger than 6x8mm bounced a lot higher in my car during that trip.Gravity wouldn't have kept in place.Then again, it's apparently as radioactive as an X-ray at a few meters distance, so good luck finding it with an Geigercounter, the ground over the entire road produces probably as much background radiation as this object itself. And it can easily have landed 20m beside the road.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 01:24:58 pm
content: This seems highly extraordinary.Having been involved in nuclear material escorts in my "previous life" to/from ANSTO in Sydney, I find it highly unusual that something of this size would just "pop out" of a truck.Either:1. It's not as dangerous as the media make it out to be, but it's still considered a "notifiable" incident, or2. It wasn't packed/transported properly, and/or3. Someone really fucked up and is going to get a big smack.Nuclear material is a big thing in AU (since we don't have nuclear energy), handling of such substances is fairly tightly controlled.Something smells off to me.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 04:26:33 pm
content: Lot of sources like that used for Gamma NDT in mining, hydro power and related fields, they go (usually temporarily) missing way more then you would expect. Hell there have been one or two stolen by workers on the site!If it is a gamma source, that is actually good as it will be far more detectable at a bit of distance then most of the other radiations would be (Inverse square law tapers more slowly then an exponential does).

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 05:49:25 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 28, 2023, 01:24:58 pmNope.This is very ordinary, happens more often than you think.I work in an industry that uses (very) radioactive sources as a matter of course, transported by road on daily basis. I've heard the stories first hand.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 08:29:03 pm
content: do you transport them so a loose screw = miniature radioactive capsule rolling off into a sewer drain ?I feel like this should take a truck roll over

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 09:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on January 28, 2023, 05:49:25 pmThen how is it possible like something like that to just be "lost"? Why wasn't it in a big container that's easy to see and handle?

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 11:06:43 pm
content: Another article:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-27/radioactive-capsule-lost-in-wa-emergency-public-health-warning/101901472So halflife of 30 years, means Cs-137, picture of capsule included, some additional details present as well: 10 x ray equivalent at one meter distance, so fairly hot.Though I think that they could find with the right tools - a gamma ray spectrometer driven over the whole route, see in which area there was a peak, narrow down the area...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 11:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 28, 2023, 09:58:15 pmbecause we are not making any money if we don't get this done faster and cheaper, stop being a worry wart (said on phone call by project manager originating from 450$ steak house)On one hand someone forgot to check torque or something, on the other hand, the systems in place for containment are horribly inadequate

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 11:24:18 pm
content: you would think its monitored for radiation output while being transported by a data logger to show exactly when there was a radiation spike. Or monitored inside of the instrument to show when there was a radiation decrease because the module was removed. Like to alert the driver that something went missing or that there was a containment breach and the truck is dangerous.Then they would know when it happened and you could correlate it with GPS time stamps to figure out where it fell out of the truck, to narrow the search area down by 1000 miles or so.The whole situation screams negligence by many parties, including technicians, project managers and regulation designers.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 11:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 28, 2023, 02:50:54 pmIt's not a dirt road, but a perfectly good sealed one, so it will almost certainly be along the edge of the road somewhere.The State Chief Medical Officer says it isn't dangerous unless you spend some time within 5 metres of it, but to err on the side of safety, try to keep it at 20m.If it is still "suss" at 20m, that implies that it would be detectable at that sort of distance, as well.Several vehicles with appropriate detection equipment could do a slow run along the route, to speed up the process.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 12:17:51 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 28, 2023, 11:52:51 pmThis article sounds like the search area is now "only" 36kmhttps://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/300794718/tiny-radioactive-capsule-lost-in-australia-triggers-searchbut..."There are concerns the solid capsule may have already become lodged in another vehicle’s tyre and potentially be hundreds of km away from the search area."

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 12:22:34 am
content: So we have a pile of comments from people either from other countries (where such materials are taken less seriously) or who have no idea about radioisotopes and their practical applications.These sorts of devices are relatively common:https://roads-waterways.transport.nsw.gov.au/business-industry/partners-suppliers/documents/test-methods/field-density-testing-by-using-a-nuclear-gauge.pdfIf you see a tradespersons ute driving around with a radiation trefoil placard it is likely this or something similar (welding inspection being less common but a similar scale/complexity). Note that there will be multiple "layers" of passive containment/retention, which is the big question around how this item got loose. Someone had to leave multiple steps out of the procedureandnot store the device inside an outer container.The dose rate publicly announced (1-2mSv/h at 1m) is a real hazard if it were to end up in a tire parked in a persons garage, if picked up as a curiosity and held close to the body (such as in a pocket) for some hours would cause burns! That rate would be detected very easily by normal handheld occupational survey meters, out to 10m or more. Sensitive instruments will pick that up at 100m or so (direct line of sight) but probably work too slowly to be air towed. Walking pace is about right:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-28/radioactive-capsule-search-perth-to-pilbara-/101902914

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 04:22:14 am
content: Quote from: karpouzi9 on January 29, 2023, 01:26:17 amNot much value in the item and significant amounts of danger, unlikely anyone would steal it knowingly.

author: BurningTantalum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 09:52:25 am
content: There must be a whole lot more to this story than the media have reported (or made up.) I used to be responsible for fitting Strontium 90 sources. The nuclear material was in a stainless container with a beam-welded titanium window, about the size of a C-cell if I recall. The item was ALWAYS kept in its transport pot which was a lead container with a lid secured by screws unless it was installed in the machine. To suggest that it was loose in the back of a ute/truck/pickup and fell through a screw hole is quite laughable. Someone must have lost it or it was pinched whilst the truck was at a roadhouse stop and there is some face saving occurring.BT

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 11:10:54 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 28, 2023, 09:58:15 pmIf regulations were being followed correctly it would've been in a transport pig, but humans are [misguided, exhausted, illogical, mistaken, erroneous] at times.For example, I know of a gamma source used in the mining industry that is the size of a AA battery (permanent encasement size) with a threaded hole for the 1.3 metre long handing tool to screw into. I don't recall the activity but for sure you wouldn't want to hold it in your hand. It's used for rock density measurement and is stored in a lead pig for transport. You have to keep in mind that mining engineers don't sit on their ass in an air conditioned office 9-5. No. They're part of a 24-7 operation, perhaps doing a week of night shifts, maybe couple new recruits to look after, perhaps the weather is bad, perhaps equipment giving problems or getting poor sleep because of day shift noise. It can be a stressful job. Anyway, at the end of a shift, an engineer places this gamma source into it's transport pig. Except they didn't. It hadn't unscrewed from the handling tool fully, and remained on the end of the handling tool and the engineer didn't notice. It was days before the gamma source was found by which time several engineers had received their yearly dose limit. RA sources are ubiquitous in industry and accidents do happen, most never reported in mainstream media. There are stories aplenty on the internet if you look.Edit: Confirmation lost Australian source should have been in a container...Quotehttps://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jan/29/new-technology-deployed-in-search-for-tiny-potentially-deadly-missing-radioactive-capsule

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2023, 02:45:13 pm
content: Anyone talked to Doc Emmett Brown?

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2023, 10:23:16 pm
content: Given the amount of people using it and how regularly they use it there is always that chance something will go wrong.It may well be in a case in the truck that is always in the truck and it's so regular for them to use they don't treat it like the dangerous thing it is. The engineer has just had to spend a few days/weeks trying to remember when he last saw it. Did he remember to put it away. The latch is a bit funny but as the case is stupid money to buy the boss wont replace it etc.It's much like that 10mm socket you put down and it runs away, hides only to appear at the other end of the shed a week later. Hunting for it makes it only harder to find. Before it was publicly announced I suspect they had to check all the obvious places just on the off chance the engineer put it somewhere daft like in his tool box and not the safety container.Aircraft engineers will know how much crap can be had if you loose a tool on a job.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2023, 10:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on January 30, 2023, 02:45:13 pmReads a bit differently:It's the Aussies, Marty. They wanted me to build them a bomb, so I took their cesium and in turn, gave them a shiny bomb-casing filled with used pinbull machine parts....Oh my god, they found me, I don't know how but they found me. The Aussies, Marty! Run for it!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 01:48:26 am
content: I love the 10mm socket analogy. I could see Burke from Aliens saying that one.Look, that facehugger I took is just like rescuing a little souvenir..... sorry I forgot to tell you guys about it, just totally slipped my mind ok?! don't be a cop, its cool man, happens all the time.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 03:11:29 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 28, 2023, 11:52:51 pmThere’s an assumption of facts that leads to this point.What if the sample was never in or on the truck, wrapped up with the lunch room leftovers on its way to the sewer outfall on the coast…

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 02:12:55 pm
content: The Brits are far more crazier ... when it comes to radioactive and bolt ...->Nuclear security alert after botched attempt to fix £88m Trident submarine with super glueQuote .. "Navy chiefs last night ordered an investigation after workers on a Trident sub risked disaster — by gluing broken bolts in a nuclear reactor chamber."

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 09:57:10 pm
content: Looks like those stupid bolt extractors have a use after all.https://www.grainger.com/product/5VUC4?gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8JHLvOby_AIVBpfICh1Mlg2vEAQYBSABEgJ-ovD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.dsMight need some fancier drills for superalloy bolts. I bet they could not drill into it or something. Bet its seized superalloy. Might not be so easy to repair. But its bad if the super glue is just there for cosmetic reasons, meaning its either extremely light load bearing, or it was covering up a problem that had a redudent screw holding it together (i.e. cosmetic).But given that this occured in drydock................................. no excuse. Every goddamn problem with a nuclear reactor has something to do with coolant.So they should have removed the bolt, inspected the bore with a boroscope and measured it to determine if it made to spec, and if a meeting decided it was reasonable and the threads are not otherwise strained, put a new bolt, or drilled and reamed a new hole, threaded it and inspected it and logged the repair...I can see that some explosives accident with a torpedo, a shock wave damages the cooling pipes that are not supported and then there is a reactor problem and adios muchachos.But also, those contractors are stupid as hell. That kind of repair can add hours to a repair time bill, if they were smart with the contract. Pretty involved to determine if a threaded hole is proper. Might be as simple as a non coated bolt was used and seized, meaning if it was investigated properly they might have found manufacturing/engineering/spec problems that caused the situation in the first place and uncovered a larger issue, or it was drilled in the wrong place and there was a slight alignment issue, or that it was threaded wrong, or there is incompatible materials. Rushing simple job = information fail.If you want your contractor company to look good, don't focus on the cheaper price, because maintenance is also inspection/monitoring and it feeds back to quality. If you want your engineering company to look good, then listen to the maintenance workers that find problems.https://knowledge.faro.com/Hardware/FaroArm_and_ScanArm/FaroArm_and_ScanArm/Measuring_Threaded_Holeshttps://flexiblemeasuring.com/measure-external-internal-thread-pitch-diameter/

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 12:44:18 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on January 31, 2023, 03:11:29 amIts presence on the truck was checked with a Geiger counter, according to the news reports.I really doubt there is a "sewer outfall" on the coast serving the Rio Tinto site.

author: redkitedesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 02:07:27 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on January 31, 2023, 03:11:29 amThere was pretty much no rain since the truck left the mine site. It hasn't flushed away.Unless it got stuck in someones tires and got unstuck in a part of Oz that does have rain. But then it can literally be anywhere in Australia.

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 02:12:57 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 31, 2023, 02:12:55 pmIt's "The Sun".I've come to be wary about the news reported by The Sun. Unless it's an article penned by their time traveller, that is.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 08:13:26 am
content: They've found it.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-64481317

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 08:51:42 am
content: well I thought they would end up having to deploy the national guard to fight mutated ostriches. I was quite sure an ostrich ate it. Did I just write the script to carnosaur 5?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 08:58:32 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 01, 2023, 08:51:42 amIt would be quite a feat for Emus to mutate into Ostriches!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 09:07:41 am
content: Didn't Australia lose the last emu war? How well would they cope against the mutant ostriches?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 12:21:46 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on February 01, 2023, 10:06:12 amPeople have been voting "right wing" for a long time, without any positive results.It seems they start "thumping the miltary tub" whenever they look likely to lose an election.It seems to work more often than not, as back during the Coalition's 23 year straight run prior to 1972,"pollies" would turn up in WA every 3 years, making big promises of a Naval Base, & quietly forget it, till next time they needed to "feed the chooks".It finally happened in 1978.Their successors on that side of politics haven't changed a lot.

author: gbaddeley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 11:23:17 am
content: It’s been found on the side of the road, by a vehicle mounted radiation detector.Edit: Oops, beaten to it, see post 37

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 01:11:27 pm
content: A few more details on the search operation:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-64483271