Why I often wonder about Windows Update - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 04:30:51 am
content: Why I often wonder about Windows Update are things like this.I've been using Windows 7 on one computer for about six months without any updates. Last year Windows Update was changed a lot and for a long time it barely worked. It would sit and claim it was downloading updates but actually do nothing for hours on end. This was a fresh install, so it had never been updated, ever. The recent ransomware thing reminded me of this, so yesterday I started up Windows Update.It went well actually. It connected quickly and I was able to download all the security type updates and get them installed in about an hour, including the latest rollup which had the fix for the ransomware problem.I didn't think about it again until tonight when I noticed the update notification icon had appeared. What now? It just updated yesterday. I look and it's a security update, KB2532531, but it says it was published in 2014, so of course I clicked for more information.Wow, it's a "Critical" security update for... Bluetooth. What? This computer has no hardware for Bluetooth and no Bluetooth device has ever been plugged into it. Why?Wait a minute, this Security Bulletin dates from... 2011 and it says KB2566220. At least agreed about the Bluetooth part.I hid the update and made a note to install it next time I feel like restarting the computer.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 04:44:56 am
content: You cannot blame Microsoft for that. Windows is a package that comes with heaps of drivers by default - mouse drivers, keyboards, cameras, Bluetooth, etc. If the support is a standard part of the operating system, they need to update no security bugs and vulnerabilities.Even of you do not use Bluetooth, you may need to update it if there is a security vulnerability. You do not have to be using vulnerable code for it to be a problem.Probably every GUI based OS available has lots of extra modules installed that you do not need right now.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 05:08:49 am
content: Windows update is one of the simplest things Microsoft has ever created, and it is the one thing they have managed since it's inception to completely fail at harder than anything else.Now, it's fine if you are just installing it every so often, but if you need to install a new version of an operating system, on a slow system it will take you days upon days of workarounds, trying multiple things, this and that.On a more modern, faster computer it will drag it's heels and restart around 20 times. There is maybe a 25% chance of screwing up completely, but you can sorta do it in a day.This is on everything Windows NT 6 and higher.On Windows 2000, and especially XP, it will take every single synapse of your body to not immediately shoot your computer, and send it to hell. It was the singular most broken piece of software I have ever used, and I am glad it's gone and I should never have to deal with that BULLSHIT again.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 05:19:15 am
content: What I was wondering this time was why this "Critical" security update from 2011 had to wait until tonight instead of being installed yesterday along with the other 128 security updates.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2017, 05:32:25 am
content: Yeah that could be it, though I always thought that was why updates sometimes did multiple restarts.It's also kind of odd that Bluetooth is updated actively even when not being used. Most of the drivers and such that Windows has copies of "just in case" don't get updates unless they're actually being used, probably to avoid more bloat than already exists in the WinSxS folder.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 05:25:26 am
content: If you want your Gazillion Core gamers or normal Windows PC to perform like a snail crawling backwards uphill,or a cat chasing it's tail stuck in a restart loop,be sure to play the 'auto update' game 24/7.Switch the sucker off and do manual SEARCH FOR UPDATES and see what's available to download and install, including Optional updates for drivers and software etc. ONLY if you need them.Don't update something just because it's there or it's the latest version.If your PC is working ok don't download anything unless you are absolutely SURE you need it,because the update (and the update for that update lol) may screw up your PC real good.Add a bully anti-virus program/s to that PC mix update with its own auto updates (and constant scare notices to do so) and you are inviting the beginning of constant computer nightmares, and Mac beachball performanceIf you're really paranoid and buy into mainstream computer FEAR tactics,then back up your data,perform a clean install,kill auto update,check for updates,select all of them including the Optional ones too,download the lot, restarting on the prompts,then a proper defragmentation to sort out the mess, and that may take a few hours!Once complete, you should be good to go on the next restart and be fully updated, proud and safer in your mindOr you can play with Linux while Windows is undergoing renovations, and see how the other half surfs

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 06:14:14 am
content: k, defragging my SSD, brb.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 06:44:19 am
content: QuoteHow do you know it's working OK? Anyone running SMBv1 and not watching the news over the weekend would think they're running OK. Nothing is any more broken after all. And that for a really high profile problem - many are just as problematic but don't get the publicity, and you only know you should've upgraded after the shit hits the fan.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 08:19:26 am
content: Had this issue last month, i noticed win7 hadn't updated since november.Now found the solution in Ct magazine I had to run a manual "sync" update from july 2016 and then manually start some service and it worked.The problem with the old update was that it didn't search for updates instantaneously, it could wait for hours before actually starting, in the mean time you had shutdown the computer so nothing happened.It was kinda a random wait time. Now it is much better it start directly and installs the criticals.Win10 is much better it installs directly and keeps the system as of latest all the time. The problem with that can be that if you haven't used a laptop or pc for a long time (half year) it can be tedious because it has to install multiple updates. Took a friend of mine 3/4 of a day before all the updates were finally installed and in the mean time he could hardly use his pc (long waiting between reboots that windows is installing and on the screen "do not power off your computer".I wonder what happens if you are in a critical game playing on virtual life and death and win10 finds a critical update

author: jaromir
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 08:56:06 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 16, 2017, 08:19:26 amWindows AI has only one choice - better dead than outdated.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 09:08:07 am
content: Quote

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 09:23:04 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on May 14, 2017, 05:08:49 am25%...Really?Bullshit.Show me the data.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 09:31:56 am
content: It is pretty terrible - Microsoft must shoulder some of the blame for the recent attacks, in particular for forcing people disable automatic updates to prevent unwanted Windows 10 installations.I have one old laptop that just sits at 25% CPU all the time as long as auto updates are enabled without ever doing anything, so basically unuseable unless updates are disabled.On another occasion, I did a clean install of I think XP SP2 a few years ago, which simply couldn't be made to update, as the update that installed from the CD was no longer compatible with the current update server.Just pathetic.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 09:50:56 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 16, 2017, 09:31:56 am7? Fixable, manually install the latest Update updates. Intentionally broken IMO.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 10:19:34 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 16, 2017, 06:44:19 amand that's what happens when you buy into mainstream computer FEAR tacticsand install suspect security programs, placebo updates, and patches for broken updates,activities which eventually will break Windows, and ballsIf you want to bail out of the ongoing 'update' fiasco, run with 2 computers,one for programs, the other for internet related stuff,scan any files going to the other computer, and keep fingers crossed.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 11:52:44 am
content: Windows Update for Win7 is a nightmare. Microsoft has changed the updating method some while ago. If you install a fresh copy of Win7 Windows Update won't find anything and fully utilizes one CPU core. You need to install some specific updates manually to get Windows Update back running. I think Microsoft did that on purpose to encourage users to upgrade to Win10. And Microsoft misuses the update function for their marketing purposes too. Have you ever noticed Silverlight updates despite not having Silverlight installed? And all the fun with the updates for persuading users to upgrade to Win10. Don't forget a few bad updates which sabotaged some PCs. Now they are blaming NSA for WannaCry, while trying to ignore that their overdoing caused some users to turn off automatic updates. It's like being caught between a rock and a hard place.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 11:57:41 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 16, 2017, 09:50:56 amNo, ity carried on doing it even after doing a manual update

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 11:59:47 am
content: Quote from: madires on May 16, 2017, 11:52:44 amActually that sound familiar - maybe that's what I was remembering - utter stupidity that a fresh install wouldn't update easily

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 12:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mr.B on May 16, 2017, 09:23:04 amI'll give you the computer, resist the urge to commit a homicide/suicide yourself.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 12:05:13 pm
content: This onehelped me get WU unstuck. Still have to find and uninstall some of the telemetry stuff WU shoveled onto my system once it worked again, though

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 12:09:05 pm
content: For those wanting to do a clean install of Windows 7 and not be stuck for the next month downloading updates.http://www.wsusoffline.net/

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 12:33:52 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on May 16, 2017, 12:09:05 pmI plan to install Server 2016 on all my new machines that can take it. It's surprisingly good.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 05:33:16 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on May 16, 2017, 06:14:14 amThat's annoying and I've heard it shortens the life or the SSD too.I thought that Windows was supposed to detect SSDs and not defragment them?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 06:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 16, 2017, 05:33:16 pmIt should. Originally Windows 7 tested the speed and if over a certain value it would assume the drive was an SSD and not set up scheduled defragmentation. You can always manually override, but that's generally not a good idea or necessary.This is probably still true for Windows 7, however Windows 10 may have a better way of detecting the drive type.As far as updates go, I thought the problems arose when Microsoft changed the updated system to use "rollups" instead of individual patches. I know I couldn't get it to work when that occurred and just turned updates off. I've assumed it's fixed now since I had no trouble or delays last week. I didn't have to do anything special, maybe I was just lucky?edit: I have two other boot drives for that computer which also have never had updates installed, I'll try see how it goes with them when I get a chance.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 12:05:24 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on May 16, 2017, 12:33:52 pmWise move,Win Server has always been the go to for stability from 2000 through to 2012.2008R2 is still my favHaven't tried 2016 yet after seeing what an intrusive sos W10 isLet us know how it goes or if it blows

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 05:41:36 am
content: I lost absolutely all trust in Windows Update after MS started abusing it to surreptitiously sneak nagware and forced Win10 installs onto systems. When several machines at a friend's business got automatically "upgraded" to Windows 10 without their consent, breaking some critical software that does not work on Win10 that was the last straw. I turned auto update off on all of my PCs, I manually install necessary updates every few weeks.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 08:52:35 am
content: My solution is to run Windows in VMs. If anything breaks I can simply revert to a backup or snapshot.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 10:00:32 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 17, 2017, 05:41:36 amRock and rollIt should be re-named to Windows F***update

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 05:05:55 pm
content: Yup pushing a new os was a stupid move.The thought behind it to make sure each customer is running the same version of os and also with updating no longer diversifying what is installed and what not but to execute all updates for the entire os is security and business wise a very good decision.I find it absolutely dreadfull that our government and counties are still using Windows XP and connect those pcs to the internet.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 05:30:26 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on May 16, 2017, 12:04:44 pmPlease do so.I've recently installed 2 XP machines (on 2003 and 2004 hardware), all updates from the initial SP3 install ran with no issues, took about 1h30 and only one or 2 reboots, not sure anymore.Your numbers are complete BS.W7 also seamless although a bit longer, maybe about 2h if you're on shitty HW. Unless you're using a cracked copy, then yes you may get a few headaches but the blame for that can't be put on MS...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 08:37:47 pm
content: I call bullshit. The thought behind it is that once they get everyone on Win10 they can turn the screws and crank down on it, herding everyone into their stupid app store ecosystem. All their warnings about security and wanting everyone on the same version are just lip service, they're desperate to justify the actions they've taken to push the new system. They know darn well that software has reached a plateau, they have no way to keep convincing everyone to buy a whole new version every few years so they want everyone on subscription services.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 08:44:17 pm
content: You mean like Autocad with Eagle?Nah then they would not sell the software with license for >$100 as they do now.Maybe when they roll out Win11 you have to pay again, but then all software houses do this.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 09:14:08 pm
content: Windows is a sort of trojan horse, what they want is to get everyone running "apps" from the store as they get a cut on all of those. They want you to subscribe to OneDrive, Office365 and other services. They want to make money harvesting your data in the OS and serve advertisements. The plan is pretty clear.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 09:17:31 pm
content: QuoteIndeed - they would likely give it to you for free. The money comes from the subscription services you would need to make the OS useful. Which is why you get O360 for nothing now - once your data is on there you'll need to keep paying to access it.It may not have escaped your attention that some Android apps you can't buy. The only option is ad supported, because the author prefers to continuous income stream to the one-off purchase then nothing after. Subscription is the preferred mechanism now; the problem for the suppliers is how to get the buyers onto it.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 10:44:45 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on May 17, 2017, 05:30:26 pmLOL, I can't remember how many times I've restored silly peoples snafu computers infected with 'cracked' Windows installed by no life gamer friends, torrent junkie IT wannabees, and clueless arrogant DIY tossers,discovering they had legit OEM license stickers, MS discs and or hidden system restore partitionswhich I used to get the PC working BETTER than new again and 100% LEGIT!You might bash MS on a few things, but they don't deserve the rap for cheapskate customer stupidity

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 11:50:55 pm
content: Ironically it was mostly users of cracked Windows 7 that didn't get force updated to Win10. My PCs are legit and I almost got bit, I had to go far out of my way to banish the stupid GWX nag, it really caused a lot of anger.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 01:36:50 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 17, 2017, 11:50:55 pmFrom memory, disabling all the Auto Update BS on Win 7, 8, 8.1 loses the Win 10 nag tooPeople with self infected Win 7 PCs hoping to get a better more secure computing experience by downgrading to Win 10, deserve a double >

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 05:33:54 am
content: Weird. I didn't get nagged on any of my computers. Although, I didn't give Windows free rein to install any an all updates it liked either.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 06:26:54 am
content: The only good way to use Windows Update is to just let it to check for updates, never allow it to download or install anything on its own. In general, security updates have been okay to install and hopefully the new rollup versions will be okay also. Though I seem to remember once instance where Microsoft tried to sneak Windows 10 in as a security update.It's also a good idea to prevent it from updating anything but itself (since it barely does that right). Don't let it update hardware drivers and third party stuff.Unfortunately, with Windows 10, Microsoft has made changes that remove control of the update process from the owner of the PC.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 06:39:27 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on May 17, 2017, 10:44:45 pmActually, it's a bit more than "a few things":Microsoft's Campaign To Destroy DR-DOSMicrosoft's Anticompetitive Per Processor License FeesMicrosoft's Retaliation And Price Discrimination Against IBMMicrosoft's Organized Collective Boycott Against IntelMicrosoft's Elimination Of Word PerfectMicrosoft's Deceptive WISE Software ProgramMicrosoft's Elimination Of NetscapeMicrosoft's Attempts To Extinguish JavaMicrosoft's Elimination Of Rival Media PlayersMicrosoft's Campaign Against Rival Server Operating SystemsMicrosoft's Failure To Comply With The Final JudgmentMicrosoft's Campaign of Patent FUD against Linux and Open Source SoftwareMicrosoft's False Promises of InteroperabilityThe EC was also investigating Microsoft's actions to manipulate the voteof the International Organization for Standardization / International ElectrotechnicalCommission on the recent standardization of Office "Open" XML ("OOXML"). As reportedwidely in the press and on the Internet, Microsoft's manipulation of the standards setting processin favor of OOXML included financial inducements, threats, misleading information, andcommittee-stuffing.committee-stuffing. These investigations are compelling examples of Microsoft's continuedmisconduct related to its monopolies in operating systems and other products.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 04:56:53 pm
content: QuoteThis is WHY there are anti-monopoly laws and stuff, because however things are currently they would be a LOT worse if entities weren't made to account for their actions. So...QuoteYou should, for a start. Do you think the probability of you surviving a car crash is through the goodness of Ford/VW/Saab/etc's heart in thinking of your welfare? No, it is entirely down the likes of Ralph Nader and wielding a Big F*cking Stick.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 06:41:50 pm
content: Ralph Nader cared about making money selling a lot of books, not about saving you from an accident. He focused heavily on the Corvair, which was not even nearly as bad as he asserted. It had some unusual handling characteristics due to the unconventional suspension geometry but I applaud GM for thinking outside the box and coming up with a car that was quite innovative for the time. They even redesigned the suspension couple years in but by that time the reputation was already sunk. I think hey may have also been involved in criticizing the Pinto, not a terribly impressive car by any measure but it was born out of a fuel crisis, hastily engineered as a compact car that would have good fuel economy while being affordable, compromises were necessary to meet those goals. It was far from the safest thing on the road but most cars of that era were not very safe by modern standards and it was not nearly as bad as critics say. Very few of them actually caught fire after a collision.Funny you should mention Saab because they had a long reputation of innovative design with a focus on safety, both directly by engineering crash protection and indirectly by designing cars that combined good and predictable handling with excellent visibility. The other Swedish car manufacture, Volvo built their whole reputation on safety. They invented the 3 point harness, they pioneered crumple zones, side impact protection and the reinforced passenger cage. Going back at least as far as the introduction of the 240 series in 1975 a collapsible steering column, collapsible driveshaft and breakaway engine mounts with a firewall designed to allow the engine to slide down and under the car in a series collision rather than intrude into the passenger compartment. Power assisted four wheel disc brakes with fixed 4-piston calipers rivaling those most sports cars were standard by 1975, narrow relatively vertical A pillars to reduce blind spots, dual independent brake circuits with twin circuit front calipers so that loss of one circuit results in full braking still on 3 out of 4 wheels. None of that was mandated at the time it was released and it took years for most other manufactures to catch up.None of that is related to Windows Update though, but I agree that most companies will do whatever they think they can get away with and I think it has gotten much worse. As soon as a company goes public the shareholders come first and quarterly gains take top priority. If it fails in the long term that doesn't matter to the people in charge, they'll either be retired or will bail out with a golden parachute after running the company into the ground and extracting everything they can.