Interesting - CE certificate on a Chinese Emergency Jump Starter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 08:37:16 pm
content: I was looking on eBay at those cheap Li-Po based jump starters (for use as a portable 12V-ish power source for a project) when I noticed a few that claimed to be CE certified.On most occasions, I would have simply disregarded those claims as typical Chinese eBay seller BS (or some dodgy CE 'Self-certification'), but on one listing they actuallyincluded a photo of the CE certificate...I know CE certificates are not particularly hard to get, but I still had my doubts about this, as those jump start battery packs are probably almost as likely to start a house-fire as they are to start a car...(Just ask the Quad-Copter guys what they think about large Li-Po battery packs hooked up to cheap chargers)I took a brief look at the certificate, and I think I might have figured out the 'trick' they used to get through certification relatively easily.(This is assuming that it is a genuine CE certificate. As far as I know it might just be fake.)Take a look at the'Product Designation'field on the CE certificate photo.(Hint: It doesn't say 'Jump Starter'...)...To be fair, the product does have an LED light on it. Very clever...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 08:47:38 pm
content: If it was me, I'd worry that the device may go faulty and try to set fire to where I live, potentially injuring/killing people.It also may not even work properly (cars need lots of current to start), and even if it does work, may not in a few months time.High temperature countries are especially at risk of LiPo battery problems, as the closer to the critical temperature of around 60 degrees C or so, is more easily reached.If your car battery and alternator are kept in good order, and the car is used at least occasionally, WITHOUT (non-standard equipment) extra current draining devices fitted to the car. You should not have problems with starting it.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 09:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 04, 2016, 08:47:38 pmMr. MK14,I actually made a living designing Automotive Electronics for many years.Don't get me started on the topic of Lithium batteries safety in motor vehicles.I almost quit my job over this once, but that is a long story...Anyway, if you have actually read my post you might have noticed two things:1. I do not intend to start a car with it.Quote2. I am very aware of the danger of Li-Po battery packs.Quote...But thanks for the warning, I guess.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 09:19:07 pm
content: My compliance experts tell me that there is only one valid cert for CE: a DECLARATION of Conformity. Nothing else cuts it. And there are no shortage of vendors supplying similarly worded documents to what you posted. All are equally worthless. I seriously doubt the company on the cert is even a notified body. A search of the database reveals nothing.Search tool for EU notified bodies:http://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/nando/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.main

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 09:21:08 pm
content: CE is self certification. I can write a valid Declaration of conformity for my own products. It's just a written confirmation that I followed the relevant standards and laws for my product category.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 09:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 04, 2016, 09:11:02 pmWhen I re-read the thread (shortly after posting), I also noticed both these mistakes on my part, SORRY. I left it the way it was, as a warning to others, who may come across this thread on the internet.They are usually very cheap and nasty (bad quality) batteries in such products (based on numerous stories and videos I have come across on the internet), so are best avoided, if you want to get better quality (well/properly made) LiPo batteries. (Yes the OP seems to at least partially realize this, but other readers may NOT).The CE marking stuff is fairly well known, to be almost a joke, as regards quality/reliability/honesty etc, especially when it is a very cheap item, coming via ebay from a Chinese seller. (Again the OP probably already knows this).

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 10:02:48 pm
content: Yeah, I know that the CE mark is practically useless.It could mean 'China Export', or just 'We think it's good, trust us. kthxbye'.What I found funny in this particular case is that they basically classified it as an LED torch.I've never seen this 'trick' before, and thought people might find it amusing.I never intended for this to develop into (another) thread on battery safety...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 10:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 04, 2016, 10:02:48 pmWhat annoys me, is that I could sell something in Europe, with the wrong markings, or forget to get the right testing done, by the correct testing bodies. Then get into terrible trouble, with the European authorities, if I breach any of these complicated rules. Then get my product BANNED from Europe, at my cost. etc etc.Whereas these cheap ebay Chinese sellers, can ship complete junk, potentially dangerous WITHOUT the correct markings, and completely illegal as regards the regulations etc etc. With close to zero chance of getting into trouble etc.Seems at least slightly unfair somehow ?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 10:42:53 pm
content: Yeah that's what I hate about the whole china thing, why are they allowed to put out anything, but anyone else isin't. When the TPP passes it will be even worse as any country will be able to sell stuff to any country and those countries won't be allowed to deny it even if it's unsafe, but yet if you want to sell something within your own country then you still have to abide by all the rules. It just seems so unfair that they make it harder to sell locally than for others to sell to you.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 10:45:20 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 04, 2016, 10:28:36 pmYeah. Exactly That!Somehow the rules (and also accountability) don't seem to apply outside of the so called '1st world'.Oh, all the time I spent complying with local, EU and US regulations...(Your beloved British government used to be a client. A lot of obscure ISO standards and other regulatory stuff was required for that to work...)Makes you sometimes wish you were Chinese, isn't it...By the way, if you ever worked with Russia, China, Brazil and the like, then you know that selling western products in those countries is actually much harder than selling Chinese products in the west.Some countries (like Brazil) practically force you to manufacture the product locally, by applying an unreasonable customs fee on imported goods.China and Russia basically force you to partner with a local company in order to do business over there.Fair trade FTW!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 11:33:09 pm
content: What also winds me up, is that if I understand things correctly (perfectly legally and by agreement), they DON'T even have to pay much for the shipping to most of the world.There is an agreement (if I understand it correctly), whereby international postage is done for free, inside the final destination country. This is because they originally thought/expected that the number of letters/parcels going between countries would be about the same, and would average out over time.So rather than go through the highly complicated method of trying to pay in different currencies, with different tax rules and regulations etc etc. They just do a kind of swap, and ONLY have to pay for the postage within their own country, and transport to the destination country. The rest is "free", within the final country.Since China is a relatively low cost (labor) country, it costs little to get it to the massive ships, which sail to the UK (and other countries), letting the UK "pay" for the final part of the shipment, going to the final destination/address within the UK.tl;drIn real terms, because not much stuff gets sent from the UK to China, but huge quantities of stuff get sent from China to the UK, they are effectively getting the postage at greatly subsidized rates.They are NOT paying import duties or VAT or taxes either, in most cases. Either legally because it is below the limit, or (illegally) mis-declaring the value of the item(s) (Reportedly).Sooner or later, governments may be forced to act on what is becoming a significantly large sized problem.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 11:51:39 pm
content: TIL...I didn't know about the postage being 'free' in the destination country.I always wondered how they managed to send things around the world for under a dollar.The few times I had to send a small package to China, it cost me over 10$. I guess that explains it...About customs, import duties, VAT etc', to be fair, when I buy small stuff from the EU or the US I don't pay taxes on it either.Where I live, packages under 75$ are totally exempt from tax, and anything over that but under about 250$ only pays VAT.To be honest, when I buy something that costs over 250$, I usually ship it using FedEx/UPS/DHL anyway.When shipping with them, we do have to pay all taxes.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 12:57:35 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 04, 2016, 10:42:53 pmI sometimes wonder about the situation with kickstarter (and other similar crowd funded things). Presumably/apparently few/no of the regulations are tested/met. Many just put the thing into packets and mail it around the world.N.B. That is my IMPRESSION, I DON'T know this for a fact, and could be WRONG!I think if you send a huge (like x1000) items in one huge (container load ?) of stuff, it gets checked out as an export/import, and MUST go through the necessary regulatory checks, labeling etc etc.But a simple (small) package, can get through to most/many countries with little or no checking or such (I believe/suspect).At some point governments may start to tighten things up, to stop/slow this thing.

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 01:51:33 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 05, 2016, 12:57:35 amAre you kidding? There is no way the customs agencies are sending samples from every container load to be lab-tested to see if they meet CE / UL standards. That would be ridiculously expensive and time-consuming.In fact, it's obvious the customs inspectors aren't even eyeballing these products when they're imported. You can see plenty of examples of phony-looking "CE" marks, I'll bet you anything those products don't have CE declarations on file - clearly, no-one's checking the paperwork.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 02:20:43 am
content: But China is a republic...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 02:22:03 am
content: Quote from: Len on June 05, 2016, 01:51:33 amI've come across a number of stories, on the internet, about people exporting/importing container loads of stuff e.g. Into America. Then having difficulties and all the items had to be destroyed for some reason etc etc.Example:https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 02:35:13 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 05, 2016, 02:22:03 amNote that didnothappen because eagle-eyed customs inspectors found something wrong with the product. That was a case of a company (Fluke) filing a complaint with a government agency to keep that particular product out of the country.It's clear that millions of items are imported every year that don't meet required standards, it's not just a few items slipping through the cracks. There's no way the vast majority of shipments are being properly inspected, the dollar stores would be empty if that were happening.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 03:51:35 am
content: Quote from: Len on June 05, 2016, 02:35:13 amThe thing is that massive container ships, suddenly arrive in port (e.g. in the UK), with something crazy like 20,000 containers. Which have to be rapidly unloaded from the container ship, loaded up onto lorries (and maybe trains), then distributed around the Destination/UK.There probably are NOT many customs officers at any particular port, so being practical, not much inspection probably takes place.But I suppose there could be computerized checking of the import/export documentation and random/rare physical checks.I DON'T know much about importing/exporting, so I'm happy to be corrected on this.Some sources (I have read) on the internet, seem to say that you DO need to be careful of CE and other markings when importing/exporting large quantities of stuff. Because of the risk of getting the entire shipment into trouble. E.g. Refused entry into that country.But I've little/no experience of any actual importing/exporting (big quantities of stuff). So I am in no position to disagree with you, here.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 08:02:26 am
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 04, 2016, 08:37:16 pmAn ancient trickBack in the late 70s / early 80s there was a consumer TV programme ("That's Life") which did a segment on a similar trick.A small advert near the back of a newspaper (=> orange flag!) was advertising furniture conforming to a British Standard spec. When checked (which wasn't easy then), the spec was for cardboard packaging. Yes, the furniture was made from cardboard.Yes, I know cardboard is a remarkably underappreciated material, and Ihavecut Ikea "wood" in half

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 09:32:16 am
content: If you import something into the eu YOU as an importer have to make sure that it is CE certified. If you don't and something happens (house burns down) because the product didn't follow the relevant rules you will be made liable without limit (not only financial but also criminal).This is also why it is so hard to import to germany as a private entity, the german government "protects" you from this and if the customs find something without a CE mark you'll have to show them a CE certificate or they'll destroy the goods.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 11:27:17 am
content: Quote from: ruffy91 on June 05, 2016, 09:32:16 amWhich is a pain when they have no idea what they're looking at and request something that you can't provide because it actually doesn't apply... had that happen to several friends in Germany.

author: batteksystem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 12:22:49 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 04, 2016, 11:33:09 pmMost of this shipment is usually very low priced items and usually declared as "gift". In my opinion, even if they are not declared as "gift", it will not be worthwhile to try collecting the custom and VAT.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 04:45:11 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 04, 2016, 08:47:38 pmI have no doubt a suitably sized lithium battery can provide the 600A it claims for the short amount of time needed. There are many YouTube videos demonstrating this.But it doesn't seem like there are many reports of fires with these.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 05:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: batteksystem on June 05, 2016, 12:22:49 pmIn the UK, the threshold is about £15/£18 (NOT sure of exact amount, would have to look it up). Many of the ebay items would legitimately be below the threshold anyway.But as you seem to be saying (or maybe NOT), they (Chinese sellers), often/usually mark it as gift and/or undervalue it. From what I have heard. So even if you buy something for say £27.99, it still will probably get to you duty free, because it is marked as gift and/or marked at below that £ threshold value, which they are very familiar with.Anyway a buyer could legitimately split their purchases up, to always remain below the thresholds, in many cases.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 05:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on June 05, 2016, 04:45:11 pmI'd be suspicious that the battery is undersized and/or too small and/or of poor quality. But it may still work.Maybe they have NOT sold enough of those devices, for fire reports to have filtered through yet.I would NOT like to take the risk of fires, because of potentially poorly constructed batteries and/or dangerous designs potentially NOT having enough safety devices in it.It's is possible the risk is small. But the outcome if it goes badly (a house fire), could lead to you losing your entire home, all your belongings, any family and friends. as well as your own life.These days a lot of house fires in the UK, seem to be blamed on problematic LiPoly battery devices. E.g. Electric Hover boards.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 08:29:13 pm
content: Everyone has their own safety thresholds. The hover boards and quadcopters are instructive in this case. In the US the FAA expected multiple millions of the quadcopters to be sold last year. Most of these have low to moderate energy batteries and have at least first order safety features in the charger. Apparently there were 2.6 million hoverboards sold in the US last year. So call it 5 million of these hazardous devices (hoverboards and quadcopters combined) sent into the market last year. Less than a dozen fires reported, and only a fraction of these caused more than isolated damage. I do suspect that there are quite a few more fires than are reported, but the implication is that the damage from these fires was negligible.I am all for taking appropriate safety precautions, but also for not quivering in fear at every risk to our lives. Stating that they are more likely to burn down your house than to start a car is hyperbole. You are asserting that there is less than a one in one hundred thousand chance that the device will succeed in starting your car in case of need.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 09:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 05, 2016, 08:29:13 pmThis was obviously just an attempt at humor. Not a technical assessment.I completely agree with your statistical analysis.(And like you I also think that our society leans too much towards the direction of "quivering in fear", as you put it)I was obviously exaggerating the situation.I did however, on more than one occasion, encountered in person cheap Chinese products that were actually dangerous. Not just mislabeled.There are several threads on this very forum dealing with such dangerous products.(From unearthed metal chassis and switched live and earth wires to 0.5mm isolation gaps between primaries and secondaries on 240V power supplies. There are many examples...)There is a reason we expect accountability and responsibility from electronics manufacturers.This zero accountability and (in some cases) criminal irresponsibility of some Chinese manufacturers is what frustrates me the most.Not the fake/nonexistent certifications...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 09:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 05, 2016, 08:29:13 pmBut that is twelve fires which mostly/fully did not need to ever occur. Just for the sake of some safety devices, such as fuses, thermal fuses and properly (safely) designed stuff. Which does NOT necessarily add that much to the cost.I/We should NOT have to be having this discussion and worrying about it. There should be properly designed safety standards/regulations, designed by people who know what they are doing and can properly come up with safe enough (and better) standards.These standards should then be met, on ALL items available for consumers to purchase. Somehow, this does not seem to be working out ok.If there are 12 fires per year "just" for hoverboards and you multiply that by x100 different products containing LiPoly batteries, that could be a HUGE number of (probably/mostly) easily preventable fires.tl;drI agree, I'm worried by the risks imposed by LiPoly batteries and the apparent lack of safety standards, met by much of the stuff that comes out of China.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 09:55:47 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 05, 2016, 08:29:13 pmLithium batteries trransported as cargo are responsible for crashing at least one commercial airliner, and are implicated in other crashes. Google "UPS crash lithium", "airliner crash lithium".

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 10:29:59 pm
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 04, 2016, 10:45:20 pmWell, guys, did you actually report such non-compliant goods to the relevant authorities or are you only whining here?The EU compliance system is reporting-based - i.e. if nobody makes a complaint, the product doesn't get actually checked and acted upon (with exceptions, as always). And it is logical in a way - checking everything by default and/or requiring import certs would bring the economy to a standstill and prices sky high. That's very much a non-starter.Dangerous or non-compliant goodsdoget pulled off the shelves and sellers fined - once someone has actually complained about them.I understand perfectly that you feel it is unfair, but everyone needs to do their part for the system to work.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 10:51:01 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 05, 2016, 10:29:59 pmWell, this specific item is for sale oneBay,directly from China.It is not on sale locally here in Israel or in the EU, as far as I know.I doubt that the local authorities over here, or in the EU for that matter, would be able to do something about items located in China, even if they do ship internationally.(And I do agree with you that we should report unsafe products soldLOCALLYto the authorities BTW)Now back to my rant:How about the Chinese government take some responsibility for a change, and regulate its own industry?!An EU company cannot legally export products deemed unsafe in the EU to China, at least as far as I know.I know this sounds crazy, but I refuse to apply this 'low-expectations bias' to governments outside of the '1st world'...Just a thought.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 11:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on June 05, 2016, 10:59:14 pmUnfortunately, I have to agree with you about the flying pigs...

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 11:28:55 pm
content: I don't know what the poster trying to say. Yes the certificate maybe a problem and that is all. This type of car starter is used widely by car mechanic here to help to start flat-battery cars, so a proven concept. And what's wrong LiPO and LiIon? when the cell phone and laptop crossed the barrier in using them beside the human heads and on their laps, that is water under the bridge.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 11:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on June 05, 2016, 11:28:55 pmI was just amused by the manufacturer classifying this jump starter as anLED lighton the CE certificate.It was never my intention that this thread would turn into a discussion about battery safety, or about regulations for that matter.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2016, 11:47:30 pm
content: There is no such thing as a CE certificate or CE certification.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2016, 12:12:34 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 05, 2016, 11:47:30 pmMike,I am really not an expert on certification.What do you mean by 'there is no such thing'?I was somewhat involved with some of my designs going through e-Mark and FCC certification.This process did involve external laboratory testing and a lot of paperwork.I just assumed its the same for CE, as e-Mark is somewhat related to it.Is it really just a manufacturer declaration, even on safety issues?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2016, 03:41:00 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 05, 2016, 09:55:47 pmYes, either there used to be truly huge numbers of these batteries being transported (they are now outlawed on airplanes in the US and I believe in many other places) or there is something going on with Lithium Ion batteries and air transport. Don't know whether it is temperature, pressure, vibration, packing density or some combination of the above combined with the extreme vulnerability of airplanes to onboard fires.But to put all of this in perspective, while you are googling Li-Ion fires, also google natural gas fires, propane fires and gasoline fires. Life in a modern society is full of hazards. Our response to these hazards is not describable by any mathematics known to me other than opinion poling.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2016, 07:29:49 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 06, 2016, 03:41:00 amPeople now understand the causes and mitigations of those problems, just as (unlike James Thurber's grandmother) they don't think you must always have a light bulb in a socket to prevent the electrickery leaking out.Life in a modern society has farfewerhazards than in a pre-modern society, mainly because the hazards are understood and precautions (legislative and otherwise) are taken.When a new type of hazard arises, two responses are visible:there's no problem (because "I haven't seen it" or "I don't want to take precautions")panic now (because "THEY are doing it to ME" or "I don't understand")Engineers should understand the issues, assess the probability of it happening and the consequences, what can be done to avoid the risk, and whether it is worth botheringin each specific situation. Short-circuiting any of those steps is undesirable.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2016, 07:36:53 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 06, 2016, 07:29:49 amYep... but given that getting an engineer to assess each specific situation is annoying and expensive we nowadays tend to rather get blanket decisions that (badly) apply to as many situations as possible because it's so much easier for those who have to create the rules.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2016, 09:16:40 am
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 06, 2016, 12:12:34 amCE is not a certification, it is a mark the manufacturer uses to declare that the product meets the requirements applicable to the product, which may include internal or external tests, depending on the type of product.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2016, 01:57:48 pm
content: I agree that automobiles, propane, petrol, etc. are understood, the mitigation methods are understood and in some sense our modern society is comfortable with the level of safety that results from those mitigations.I also agree that any new risks should be assessed, appropriate mitigations developed and implemented. Legislation may or may not be required, and it is not solely the job of engineers to do this.My point was that for the aforementioned risks the accepted hazard (as demonstrated by death and property destruction reports) are far from zero, and that some recognition of that should be involved in discussions of new risk areas. Zero risk is a goal, never achievable and even debatable as to whether it is an appropriate goal.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2016, 02:49:18 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 06, 2016, 01:57:48 pmTrue, but the overall tone of your post was to downplay the new risk. Analogy: "Why worry about asbestos/radon/lead when people smoke fags/cigars". Just because smoking is far more dangerous than asbestos/radon/lead doesn't imply anything meaningful about how we should treat them.OTOH, if a smoker worries about radon, they should be reminded that they are worrying about a mote in their eye

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2016, 11:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 06, 2016, 02:49:18 pmI suppose I was downplaying the new risk. The recommended mitigation was to avoid all use of Li-Ion booster boxes. I already had the information that there have been a dozen or less reported fires from millions of deployed units. From my participation in a forum on a totally different subject matter I was already familiar with the following.Executive SummaryDuring the five-year period of 2004-2008, NFPA estimates that U.S. fire departments responded to an average of 5,020 in service or gas station properties per year. These fires caused an annual average of two civilian deaths, 48 civilian fire injuries, and $20 million in direct property damage. The majority of the fires in this category were vehicle fires. Reported fires in this occupancy group fell 46% from 7,860 in 1980 to 4,280 in 2008.According to the U.S. Census Bureau, there were 117,000 gasoline stations in the United States in 20071. Fires in these occupancies represent a variety of incidents, including structure fires, vehicle fires, outdoor fires and other fires. The majority of incidents are vehicle fires (61%), but the majority of the property damage (59%), results from structure fires. Outside trash or rubbish fires account for 12% of the fires reported to local fire departments at this type of property.Twelve percent of fires reported to local fire departments in these properties were structure fires. The most common items first ignited in structure fires at service stations were flammable and combustible liquids and gases, piping or filter (22% of structure fires), followed by rubbish, trash, or waste (18%) and electrical wire or cable insulation (13%).Most vehicle fires (82%) occurred in passenger vehicles, these fires accounted for nearly half of the total number of civilian injuries that occurred in service station fires of any kind (structure, vehicle, outside, other). The most common type of material first ignited in a vehicle fire was gasoline (28%).Outside and other fires accounted for 15% of incidents at service stations. Natural vegetation fires accounted for 42% of these incidents. The most common heat source for outside fires was smoking materials (21%).Twelve percent of fire incidents at service stations were outside trash or rubbish fires.Individuals interested in keeping service stations safe from fire should consult NFPA 30A – Code for Motor Fuel Dispensing Facilities and Repair Garages for information about fire prevention in these properties.So I felt that the situation was analogous to your example of a smoker worried about radon. Perhaps this level of hazard is unique to the US, but I suspect that the US is not totally out of line with the rest of the G20 economies.I do feel that mitigations for the risks involved with these items is appropriate. Like storing them in fire resistant areas in the garage. Not up against the lumber storage of the woodworking area. Like either buying from a quality source if you don't have the skills to evaluate the safety of the product, or evaluating safety risks in the product.And more to the point of this thread - I agree that we all should do what we can to ensure that product certifications are meaningful. Which means being suspicious of bottom dollar purchases, reporting apparent violations, and pursuing whatever legal means are available to recover damages if such damage occurs from a device that didn't perform to the claimed certification. In the US that would include lawsuits against the importer, distributor, on-line seller and anyone else that could be touched.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2016, 07:53:35 am
content: Valid points omitted.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 06, 2016, 11:56:55 pmIn the last 30 years it has been discovered that in some places in the UK the risk of lung cancer due to radon is equivalent to smoking 20 fags/day. Much of the pioneering work was done in Bristol.Fromhttp://www.ukradon.org/information/risks"Radon causes over 1,100 deaths from lung cancer each year in the UK. Half of these deaths occur among the quarter of the population who are current smokers" and maps are shown athttp://www.ukradon.org/cms/plugins/radon/zoom_map.phpQuoteIt is still unclear what mitigations are really worth taking. Given the ignorant boneheadness of some people, we can be sure they won't be taken anyway.As for risks, I like taking measured risks such as flying in a gaggle of other aircraft, and occasionally accidentally "departing from controlled flight". Currently I have some interesting metals (Na, Mg powder) that I'm wondering where to store long term

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2016, 10:14:42 am
content: QuoteIt is likely a fake.The certificate reads:Quote"doesn't"? Seems too informal for a certificate.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2016, 03:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 04, 2016, 10:02:48 pmThere is no "China Export" label, this is actually an urban legend:https://cemarking.net/chinese-export/As others said CE is self-certified (many manufacturers outsource it to external test houses, though).

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2016, 06:55:24 pm
content: CE = Crappy Electronics

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2016, 10:16:27 pm
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 05, 2016, 10:51:01 pmYou can report fake/infringing/etc. items to eBay. They routinely take such auctions down. However, if someone individually imports an item like that (buying something on eBay is pretty much that), then they likely don't care much about the safety, CE or no CE marking, etc.Quote from: qc1998 on June 05, 2016, 10:51:01 pmAnd why should they? Only because it would make our lives easier and be more convenient for the Western businesses? It would be a lose-lose proposition for them. It can certainly be infuriating in many cases, but only because we like to shoot ourselves in the foot with heavy handed regulation even for the shape of bananas doesn't mean that everyone has to do the same so that they don't get, by chance, an advantage.China is a very good example of both where lack of or a very loose regulation can horribly fail (e.g. the various food-related scandals they had with people even dying) and be a big win - e.g. the lack of "intellectual property" protection in the Western sense. I would dare to say that we should probably rather try to emulate some of the good aspects they have instead of jumping up and down and demanding that they change to our standards or we take our toys and go home. Even though it is our economy that would likely go belly up if the trade with China was severely curtailed, not theirs.Now, I am certainly not advocating abolishing things like safety rules or human rights. On the other hand, if people weren't ordering, buying and even demanding that cheap unsafe crap en masse, the factories in Asia wouldn't be producing it neither ...You know, it is a bit like the French and German unions (and some politicians too) demanding that East European truckers are paid German and French wages when passing their countries to not be unfair competition for their local transport companies (something that would likely put the truckers out of business). However, at the same time the French Peugeot or German Volkswagen are happily paying about 1/5th of the German or French salary for the same position to the workers in their factories in Czech republic or in Slovakia. Or they pay Slovak truckers to transport the cars from the plant in Bratislava back to Germany Slovak, not German wages. They directly profit from the cheap labor.It is hypocritical - on one hand we are criticizing China but on the other hand we are dependent on their cheap products and are directly profiting from them in many cases. I am afraid we can't have our cake and eat it too.

author: qc1998
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2016, 11:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 07, 2016, 10:16:27 pmI agree with you about over-regulation.I am all for as MINIMAL regulation as possible.I couldn't care less about the shape of bananas. (Do they really regulate THAT in the EU?!)Safety, on the other hand, is about the only area where I do think we should have at least minimal regulation.Quote'Intellectual Property' as it currently stands in the west is, in my opinion, completely broken and counter-productive.I think that western governments (which suffer from way too much corporate influence, in my opinion) have gone completely mad about this issue.I don't know how we can solve this, but this is outside the scope of this thread.QuoteThink about this for a moment.Most people buying this stuff have NO WAY to know whether it's safe or not.They are buying these products because they are cheap.The 'average Joe' doesn't know what an earth wire or a cell balance circuit is, and why he needs them.He still needs them though.I know this is a website full of Electronics engineers, but keep in mind that the general population does not have our skill set.This is why we need some basic safety regulations.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2016, 08:09:02 am
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 07, 2016, 11:15:23 pmI think the only way to solve this is to regulate and change the education system. Why do I need to learn shit I'm not going to use ever? I have spatial issues abs unable to learn about geography by memoristic methods, unable to remember dates so I fail at history subjects too.Why can't the average Joe learn about basic electronics, physics and computing in a lot more effective way? What about self taught skills to be able to learn about what the person is interested on and be really aware that this essential skill is learnt instead remember not understood information? What about logic skills? What able philosophy and critical thinking? Wendy amor understood por political and legal systems? Those are more important skill sets, even if you don't want to be an engineer.I'm a failed student in recovering, so I'm aware how the educational system in my zone is total bullshit. I have ADHD, now I'm learning how to self educate myself instead.But an educated population is very dangerous for the current corrupt society

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2016, 07:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: qc1998 on June 07, 2016, 11:15:23 pmYep:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Regulation_%28EC%29_No._2257/94Quote from: qc1998 on June 07, 2016, 11:15:23 pmSure. Now you only have to make everyone agree that what you consider as safe is the way it should be elsewhere too. The Chinese certainly do have (electrical) safety rules and codes. May not be the same as to what you expect, though. Heck, we can't even agree on these things within the EU - almost every EU country has significantly different electrotechnical norms, building standards and even things like wall outlets. And you want to impose regulation on China??Quote from: qc1998 on June 07, 2016, 11:15:23 pmOf course, agreed. On the other hand, even the average Joe knows by now that stuff bought on Alibaba or eBay is often of dodgy quality at best and you get exactly what you pay for. People also know that they are buying a product made for a foreign market (manual in Chinese that looks like someone spilled dry tea should be a good clue!) and may not satisfy the local standards, regardless of what the standards actually are. And theystillbuy it. People also do totally stupid things with otherwise perfectly safe equipment having all requisite certificates and inspections.So I am not really buying this argument. We cannot legislate human stupidity away, especially not by trying to make another country responsible for preventing stupid acts of our own people.On the other hand, major retailers selling unsafe junk should be criminal offense

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2016, 07:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: timofonic on June 08, 2016, 08:09:02 amYou know, that argument goes both ways - "Why should I learn this useless electronics and computers when I want to be a dancer/musician/historian/whatever? I don't get it and it is just setting me up for a failure ..."I have been in education for a while and this is an eternal debate, with the "pendulum" constantly swinging from one extreme to the other. First all "hard" subjects are removed or gutted ("we don't do math or physics anymore, that is too difficult, we only talk about it now"), because they are too hard and students are being made to fail even though they will likely "never need that stuff".Few years later it is discovered that the grads are failing basic functional literacy tests, are unemployable because there aren't that many journalism, philosophy or literature jobs available, while factories have problems finding engineers and technicians. The politicians step in, pushing for more math, STEM, "computing", "coding", cutting all the "useless" humanities which are only making the graduates unemployed.Then you suddenly find that your now highly educated and qualified young people are voting for ultra rightwing neo-nazi populistic parties because "they will fix the state", "get rid of the foreign parasites", "get rid of Arabs", you name it. They also tend to think holocaust was a made up fiction and it is only smear by the "standard" parties used against their favorites ... 18-20 year olds, going to vote for the first time. Everyone is shocked, what, *SHOCKED* about this - even though it is a completely logical consequence, since many of these kids have spent hearing for a year about the stone age and how prehistoric people were using fire, but the WWII is dedicated perhaps a lesson or two in a typical history class.Education must be balanced. You can't remove stuff you think is useless (whether humanities or sciences - depends on who you ask what is "useless") - how do you know what is that kid going to choose for a career in the future? There is plenty of time for specialization when arriving to universities or vocational schools. Then there is some basic education that is part of our values - history and geography play a major role there. Not knowing one's own history only leads to repetition of the past mistakes.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2016, 12:08:02 pm
content: WTF Janoc? Not teaching humanities causes neo-Nazism? Your argument did make some sense up until that point....

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2016, 06:02:09 pm
content: I'll reply layer in a more detailed ....But there's a difference between knowing history and remember all damn dates and stupid details.Schools here never taught humanities properly. They just make you memorize shot, not understand and use critical thinking. And the official history is manipulated bullshit most of the time.Fascists? I'm leftist (and don't derail with the topic, you can pen another forum thread about it is you want) and vegan! I find there's lots of leftists in the computing and somewhat in electronics too (maybe a bit less, leftist geeks are pro copyleft and that needs to get more popular in electronics beyond Arduinos) .But I always hated school, they were never able to teach me a shit. I learnt a lot more by myself than with others and private tutors help me out a lot too (when I can afford them), despite my learning disabilities are still in recovery process.

author: batteksystem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2016, 03:20:33 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 05, 2016, 03:51:35 amIf you are shipping as a formal company with invoice and production order. Yes, you can be blocked if you haven't done proper paper work.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2016, 11:04:52 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on June 09, 2016, 12:08:02 pmNot, not causing neo-nazism. But not teaching history properly leads to an ultra rightwing neonazi party gaining 8.7% of votes in our last elections and 15 MPs (out of 150 seats). Out of nowhere, they were at best a very fringe, non-parliamentary party before - or more like a bunch of thugs with shaved heads yelling "Heil Hitler!" at football matches. I should have been probably a bit more specific there.A large part of the electorate of this party were young, first time voters who were put off by the traditional parties (for many good reasons, unfortunately). The populism of the leader appeals to many of these kids, because he offers simple "solutions". And then you have alarming surveys from high schools where 17-18 year olds have no idea that the greeting the guy uses in public is actually a greeting from the WWII Slovak nazi party, that the uniform he was walking around in is almost a 1:1 copy of the uniform that the gardists used during WWII - the same gardists who have together with the German troops exterminated several villages and sent 44 000 Slovak Jews to be gassed in Auschwitz and elsewhere. Racism and blatant antisemitism are omnipresent too. The kids have no idea that no, it is not something normal (especially when they see adults around them berating gypsies, or more recently, refugees/migrants) and that millions of people have died because of this in the past.It is a direct consequence of our screwed up education system, unfortunately - it changed very little since the fall of communism, modern history, politics or basic civics are essentially not taught at all or glossed over at best. The above is a direct result of that - teenagers think that this guy is "cool" and that he has the balls to stand up to the establishment that is only trying to unfairly repress him. They have no clue about what the ideas he actually stands for really mean, only that he is the tough guy who "will show them" (whoever the "them" is). Some schools and even sports clubs now go to such drastic measures that they actually take their pupils to Auschwitz to confront them with what this guy is pushing. That this stuff was real and not just some made up BS from a book.It is not just in Slovakia like that, though - the French have similar experience with the Le Pen family. Also a lot of young people here sympathize with them, despite of what nazis actually did to France. Heck, in the last elections to the regional parliaments National Front got almost 40% of the vote here up in the north. You could probably find similar things in other countries too (like Austria recently), but I am not that familiar with the history or situation to be able to speak about them.