Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:19:56 pm
content: https://blog.adafruit.com/2020/03/30/medtronic-shares-ventilation-design-specifications-to-accelerate-efforts-to-increase-global-ventilator-production-medtronic/Link ( no registration version ) :https://www.medtronic.com/us-en/e/open-files/thank-you.htmlQuoteYeah right - believe it when I see it. Why release an incomplete set of docs other than for free publicity?BTW there is a 555 timer in there !

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:34:07 pm
content: Still cool to take a look at the schematics, even if the rest of the stuff is never released.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:40:19 pm
content: hey, you got the source ... just like so many other 'open source' projects ... half document , unworkable , not turnkey , and in a format that no machine can read , or using obsolete cad systems

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:16:20 pm
content: Better than I thought. Especially the requirements documents are probably the most important base for someone wanting to create a derived product.The schematics are about as simple as expected, so unless you wanted to make a 1:1 clone, it's not a big deal to recreate the PCBs. Rewriting the software is probably the bigger challenge, in the very likely case they don't release their source code.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2020, 10:19:56 pmWhy the cynicism? Who pissed in your corn flakes this morning?Who cares what their motivations are, if what they are doing is clearly a good thing?Of all the things to get your panties in a twist about, this one just doesn't make sense.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: m98 on March 30, 2020, 11:16:20 pmThe press release (quoted in the first link) plainly says "The PB 560 design specifications are available today, software code and other information will follow shortly."

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:24:56 pm
content: My partner's uncle works for Medtronic. I'd ask him except with all this stuff that's going on I'm not sure when we'll have an opportunity to see him next.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 30, 2020, 11:22:41 pmEven if they publish absolutely everything , it would still be impractical for anyone to tool up to manufacture, and a huge financial risk.Why would they only release what is the least useful info, rather than everything in one go? They're just throwing out enough to hook some journalists to get some favorable publcity, and I expect they will quietly forget about publishing any more.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:05:54 pm
content: Also note that the cpu is probably long obsolete. if i recall the ST10 family was discontinued in 2008 ...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:00:09 pm
content: Building your own homebrew ventilator is easy.Actual medical grade devices are another story...EDIT: I didn't even see the DIY ventilator thread...so you guys already know the drill then.

author: bushjavier
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:10:21 pm
content: Please check the website again!!!!!! they are releasing more files, the say more to come. The new release come with a lot of mechanical stuff and PCBs.Medtronic PB560 Ventilator System – Release 2.0 (.zip)Includes:Manufacturing fixturesPrinted circuit board drawings (including multiple BOMs)3D CAD filesMechanical part drawings

author: bushjavier
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:15:03 pm
content: Please check the new files, perhaps they will continue releasing more files they say that in the website, i thing this is more "open source" with a lot of mechanical data and PCB and BOM.!!!!Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 31, 2020, 02:49:34 pm

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:59:36 pm
content: Link on the site now bounces back to the registration page - has anyone got to the new filesyet?

author: MasterBuilder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 10:42:14 pm
content: This link works for me, after I re-registered. Release 2.0 files, BOMs, CAD, etc.https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-2.zip

author: rgarito
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 03:10:34 am
content: That looks a lot more promising. Still obsolete parts but much better than what they originally released. Firmware source code would be really telling...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 07:16:18 am
content: Perhaps they are reviewing their code before releasing it. Checking what licences allow public disclosure for instance. At a previous employer we wanted to release software from a product as open source but we couldn't get the licence to do so from one of our IP suppliers.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 10:06:26 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 31, 2020, 02:49:34 pmI think the whole point is that with modern 3D printing and CNC machining, you don’t have any tooling to make, which is why numerous people were working on open-source versions.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 31, 2020, 02:49:34 pmI can think of two reasons:1. third-party intellectual property. It’s highly likely that they used third-party software components (that being a very common thing, as tom66 also says above), so they have to secure distribution rights for those components. And even if they didn’t actually use any, they’d still need to review the code to make sure they don’t. Similarly, their CAD drawings might have used 3D models of components provided by the component manufacturers, again requiring legal review to make sure they’re allowed to share them, even if integrated into their own design.2. Finding and/or converting files. Now, I have never done anything CAD (aside from absolute basic PCB design), so this is purely speculation based on how things are in most disciplines, but it’s quite possible that the 15 year old source files needed to be converted to a current format. And that’s assuming they had them sitting on a server ready to go. But it’s very possible they were archived on a tape or hard drive somewhere, and someone had to dig them up. Wouldn’t be the first time that a company had the documentation at hand, but nobody remembered where the engineering files/source code was.Given that they’d said that they “will” release the files, not “might”, my guess is that they already had them at hand, but had to put them through legal review first.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 31, 2020, 02:49:34 pmAgain, they didn’t say they “might” release the files, they used the word “will”. Had they failed to do so, the negative press would no doubt have been (justifiably) vicious.What Idon’tunderstand is your (and then Dave’s) vicious attack on them before even giving them achanceto keep their word, which in the meantime,they have done.And to be clear, I’m not suggesting that they aren’t doing this for publicity. But as I said before, if what they do ends up being a good thing, who cares if the motivation isn’t selfless? We can approve of this one action without approving of the company’s other behavior.

author: José.jmaacc
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 03:24:38 pm
content: did you guy took a look at this :https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/compatible-microcontroler/might give you an insight into the medtronics postI think I need to create another post explaining the idea even further

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 08:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: rgarito on April 01, 2020, 03:10:34 amMedical equipment (especially life support gear), can take years to get properly cerified. Also, the parts used have to be tested and approved already for medical purposes. It's not uncommon to see older parts in medical equipment.

author: 1Ghz
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 09:13:05 pm
content: They released the source code for MCU.CPU card: ST10F276Power supply board: PIC18F6622https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-3.zip

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 02:18:37 am
content: ST10F is nothing like PIC10F (or STC10F), if that's what you were thinking of...https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/st10f276e.pdf16-bit core, 832K(?) flash, 68K(?) RAM, lot of peripherals, 144-pin package.

author: José.jmaacc
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 02:25:29 am
content: aren't you guys slightly worried that the sharing of all this information might create clones that don't work properly and can NOT be identified as clones? It can result in both genuine and clones to be ALL removed from medical centers.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 02:41:08 am
content: I would hope that the companies making clones would brand them as their own. I mean this isn't the sort of thing someone is going to build in their garage, it's going to be decent sized companies that are hopefully trustworthy. During WWII we had all sorts of companies building airplanes, there were competitors to Boeing that were building B-17s and other aircraft, nobody worried that these "clones" were defective or improperly made. We needed as many planes as possible and didn't have the luxury of worrying about that.Whatever the case I think this is pretty cool. I don't mind if they get some PR out of the deal, they're allowed to do that and I'm not going to fault them for giving away their IP for free. If nothing else it provides an interesting view into how these machines work.

author: pipe2null
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 05:37:52 am
content: These links worked for me without registering... Are there downloads other than these? Does this look like the complete set of all files for the machine?https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-1.ziphttps://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-2.ziphttps://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-3.zip

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 07:01:28 am
content: At least reading the source code doesn't make me feel so bad about some of my messy code. This is medical device software with comments mixed in French and English, global variables everywhere (with no management over who reads or writes what), mixed tab and space use, spelling errors and undocumented constants.But I agree it's pretty cool that they've now released the source, I'd say you pretty much have everything you need. Sourcing that old ST processor will probably be the hardest part.

author: José.jmaacc
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 07:05:07 am
content: fake medical grade gloves, masks and hand sanitizer. Fake anti viral medication, and other drugs.Now imagine free access to firmware that allows perfect UI clonesimo , this time its best to cross thingers james_s.There would be no need if only theory of operation, functional validation and control were published, after all engineers will most likely have to use different hardware, parts in these plans can not be purchased , however they can be cloned!

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 10:17:13 am
content: Quote from: José.jmaacc on April 02, 2020, 02:25:29 amNo.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 05:14:41 pm
content: Don't worry too much, as the chances of a cloned device (or any non-approved device) making it to intensive care units of hospitals are close to zero anyway.Looks like many have no clue how purchases of medical devices are handled in hospitals these days. Be thankful for that too.Also looks like many have no clue what certification of medical devices entails. The design itself is only a small part of it. The whole organization of the manufacturer matters too, and production is a BIG part of it, so even if you had the exact design of an approved medical device, you wouldn't be able to manufacture it while keeping the certification unless you have proven your company can, which is a lengthy process. Be also thankful for this as getting it wrong is extremely easy.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 07:45:34 pm
content: I think we'll see a lot of rules and regulations being short-circuited as the crisis unfolds and I'm perfectly ok with that. If we end up with tens of thousands of people dying while the gears of bureaucracy slowly turn and workable lifesaving machines sit waiting that is going to create an entirely new issue. I don't give a damn about regulations right now, we don't have the luxury of worrying about that, during a situation like we have unfolding the normal rules no longer apply, people are getting creative out of necessity.Already we have hospitals buying supplies on ebay, taking donations from companies and private individuals, doctors coming up with "MacGyver" solutions to connect multiple patients to ventilators designed for one person. PPEs are being manufactured already by all sorts of companies and individuals as hospitals have been doing things that would *never* fly during normal times like washing and reusing disposable items. This morning I read some unrelated company was repairing broken ventilators for hospitals in I think it was California. Having repaired a lot of veterinary medical equipment (which in many cases is identical to human equipment sans the red tape) it has occurred to me that I could do something like that if I found myself needing employment.

author: rgarito
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 08:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 02, 2020, 07:01:28 amif you saw the "professional" code I work on daily for one of the large well known IT firms, you'd laugh. It's an absolute NIGHTMARE. Yet it runs about half the planet...

author: rgarito
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 08:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 02, 2020, 07:45:34 pmKeep in mind, too, that the permissive license for this thing requires () that each device made from this be labeled:COVID-19 Warning: This Ventilator was created for use only in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. It is provided AS IS.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 10:07:54 pm
content: Yeah, just another heap of corona bullshit.If it ever gets that far with me, I'd rather take some barbiturates and die than be sedated and connected to some botched together ventilator systems.First scenario, I die painlessly and quick, second scenario, I probably die as well, just much more slowly and painfully. And if the guy which sedates me fucks up, I wake up as as an oxygen deprived retard, how fun is that.Same happens, if the homebuild ventilator craps out.The only thing I would trust is with with old school iron lungs.Requires nothing but some old barrels, some valves, very basic electronics and couple of radial compressors from like old vacuum cleaners.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 10:13:01 pm
content: Quote from: José.jmaacc on April 02, 2020, 02:25:29 amThey're accurate enough to be indistinguishable but not accurate enough to work? Sounds unlikely. Besides, there are always going to be differences. Two injection moulds from the same drawing are doing to be different when made by different mould makers.

author: José.jmaacc
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 10:17:20 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 02, 2020, 05:14:41 pmabout my knowledge of medical devices, right now you are correct, however there are still 2 or 3 phases left of this event, and are we presently at phase 5?? are we sure? How long will it last? When will we have the first 45days(22*2+1) delimited region without new cases? Will it be June 2021(two thousand and twenty one)?The rules that exist now protect health systems but will they exist by then ?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 03:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: José.jmaacc on April 02, 2020, 10:17:20 pmYou don't want to know.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 06:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: MadTux on April 02, 2020, 10:07:54 pmIn that case please do make sure others are aware of your wishes so that you don't tie up equipment and efforts that could be used to give someone else several more years/decades of life. Of those who end up on ventilators it sounds like a majority of them do recover after a few weeks, it's not something where they end up tethered to a machine for the rest of their life.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 11:15:45 pm
content: Just watched Dave's 2 eevBlab #72 & #73quick duck,duck here's link for alternate access of Medtronics devicehttps://www.3dprintingmedia.network/forums/topic/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-release-1-0/fmedtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-1.zipmedtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-2.zipmedtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-3.zip (either edit one of the other URLS "set-3")or copyhttps://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-3.zipAll software and code appears to be in set-3

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 02:33:29 pm
content: Interesting video on why most of the low-cost ventilator projects are a waste of time :https://youtu.be/7vLPefHYWpY

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 06:25:08 pm
content: There's an identical thread on eevBlab as noted above.Medtronics has a problem: Their customers want more devices than they can make but if they spend money on capital investment, the plants will be overcapacity when this debacle is over. Worse yet, hospitals will be flooded with ventilators and the market won't recover for years. Medtronics could possibly run additional shifts (if possible) but expanding capacity through capital investment is a money losing proposition.So, to prevent backlash when they refuse to increase capacity, they pick a design that they probably don't care much about and open it up to the world. "Here, build your own" and "leave us alone".Furthermore, it's not clear that Medtonics' suppliers can deliver the components at an accelerated rate. If they can't, it's Medtronics fault for not making more units. Nobody is interested in excuses. So, give away a design and let the other builders worry about the supply chain.Releasing the design was a good move. It takes the heat off Medtronics and makes them look like a responsible corporate citizen. "Hey, we gave away a perfectly good design, some company just needs to step up and start building!".

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 11:05:31 pm
content: some schematics for a unknown type no-name breathing machinego back to the first invention of the medical device type respirator or breathing machine or iron lung,and work forward until you get to todays design behind the curtain of property law.this is were you need to step back and re-design to the best of the knowledge you have.an all new design of medical device type respirator or breathing machine that is in no waytriggers a patent bomb or is as legally free of ........if you was stuck on a desert island and your life depended on having a medical device type respiratorand lets say you had all the resource to build it. reliability and safety are important.but itssinusitis

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 11:50:05 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 06, 2020, 06:25:08 pmAs far as i understood it there went some serious tax money to develop these ventilators years ago because the next respiratory illness that makes it into a pandemic was kind of foreseeable.I mean no one keeps a manufacturer from hiring more people to build more of them, it is not rocket science to assemble one. So either they do not have the parts or some other bottleneck that someone that tries to make a clone will also face. But it is unfeasible to do so in three-six weeks time.QuoteI am not sure if manufacturers of medical devices can allow to go such a route, their customers are hospitals after all and this type of machine goes only with intensive care, so the usual amount of devices they sell is coupled to the amount of intensive care units that are in the country. Might as well just have been produced on order with long lead times, they are just not prepared for this - no one is.It is not their only product as well.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:02:53 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 06, 2020, 06:25:08 pmOn the bright side, we can maybe look forward to some interesting teardown videos in the future... of ones that have hopefully been thoroughly sterilised, of course.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 31, 2020, 03:05:54 pmWell, that would explain why they released this particular product design. They probably have a dwindling stock of CPUs and plan to stop production soon anyway.Edit: Actually it appears the CPU used is still available but NRND,https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/ST10F276Z5T3?qs=SoAZXCQuyY%252BYJOKV3TS93A%3D%3D.Quite expensive, and seems to have some unusual features.Edit2: pretty daft releasing Open Source, but having to register to get it! Anyway, Seth Hilbrand, of KiCad Services, has set uphttps://gitlab.com/openventilator.Plan is to reimplement designs in KiCad.Edit3: to be fair, Medtronic are not calling it Open Source, merely "open". The "permissive" license reads:QuoteThey clearly have no f*** clue what permissive means, regardless of anything else! Completely pointless doing anything with this platform, with such ahighly restrictedlicense. So yeah, I'm calling bullshit on this too.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 08:16:38 pm
content: Has anyone scrubbed the bom of this thing ? 3/4 of the world is busy converting the files to whatever platform-du-your , lambasting medtronics for the license or other dilly-dallying.The supply chain is the most critical thing for these machines. And i'm not just talking electronics. Valves ? The display ? the membrane keypad ? There are some really tough to get parts in this kind of machine.All the 'conversion effort' is a waste if you can't get the parts to build it !

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 10:40:18 pm
content: Perhaps instead of trying to trace down supplies of obsolete components and ending up with desoldered junk from you know where, as had been said else where, we should use the Medtronics information as a learning pack to tell us what is needed and redesign the control system from scratch.Its not difficult, provided the code is robustly written in say C, then you use a different processor, write a few drivers, assemble the lot and that's it, it will work the same if not better than the original.I was involved in redesigning part of the control system for a Pharma machine. It used a plug in AIM card with a 386 processor and obsolescence was a pain. I basically put down an LPC1768, and connected everything up. Chips like that make things very easy, its all I/O lines and serial interfaces, plus the speed of 100MHz means it will process faster than older stuff. The software engineer wrote drivers to replace the originals and that was it, it still ran the original code, and was better cheaper, faster and more reliable.As far as a membrane sealed keyboard, would this do ?.https://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mcak304nwwb/keypad-3x4-array-plastic/dp/1182235It doesn't need to have the exact key layout, just needs a method of signalling the system to do a certain function.Don't create problems when there is a simpler answer,Ken

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 06:19:35 pm
content: I wouldn't worry about it, there is almost zero chance any of the 100 or so open ventilator projects will get as far as practical use.I guess there are lots of bored people looking for something to do though.

author: adx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 10:43:04 pm
content: I see no problems with Medtronics' files or motives. Looks fine to me. It's still intriguing to see documents for things like a hose cutter fixture - like getting a job at the place, except you can build it yourself if you want! They say they hope the design inspires innovation during this time, etc, so there's very little they can do to stop others using the design ideas, I'd guess the license is "best effort" to protect their domain when someone produces an identical copy. Releasing it is obviously a good idea to protect their market in a world which might be flooded with high-volume ventilator production pretty soon, and is also a Good Thing To Do.The first pack has more than enough to guide a newbie manufacturer into production of ventilators, warts and all if they want. I was considering entering the schematic, didn't take enough notice of the promise to release all material, later I downloaded that, and there are the gerbers, solidworks files. This provides an enormous headstart on regulatory approvals, and above all guides a developer away from all the traps in setting one of these products up in short order (I've done it, but the detail is neverending). I'm confident I could make and sell a few (far too few to be any use). The turbine manufacturer is run off their feet - I was thinking a vacuum cleaner motor compatible with the drive board (a standard chip but not sensorless). But it's really an invitation to experiment a bit, with an assumption of competence.