The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 12:16:57 pm
content: https://slate.com/business/2023/04/cars-buttons-touchscreens-vw-porsche-nissan-hyundai.htmlQuoteQuoteFinally, it took their sweet time. I know that this is a issue who (including me) pisses me off. Nothing beats a button that I can press or a knob I can actuate without taking the eyes from the road.Now let's address the oversize and size creep of Trucks and SUVs each new release...

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 01:06:58 pm
content: What??i though it was because carmakers can't get enough electronics to build the car.Mercedes and peugeot had to remove led headlights () and full screen dashboards from some catalogs to go back to halogen and needles

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 01:57:26 pm
content: I drive older cars and I hate to think what will happen to a car if you break the screen or the electronics fail after spare parts are no longer readily available. You can't rely on the used one being any better and they'll be expensive. So many cars will have another expensive repair that relegates them to the scrap.I particularly don't like headlights that cost a thousand dollars to repair/replace when I can just buy a bulb for $50. It makes insurance premiums that much higher too when even a minor accident can irreparably damage one.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 02:47:55 pm
content: I'm convinced that there would be a large market for cars and trucks that use simple standard parts such as headlights, taillights, standalone radios with knobs, standard size wheels and tires, etc instead of all of the expensive gimmickry that tieseverythingback to one central on-board computer and that are unique onlythatmodel car and that costs a small fortune to replace. A single replacement headlamp now cost over $1000 in many late model cars and some of the odd size tires are nearly as much.Some of the auto manufacturers need to start building a modern and affordable People's Car instead of building a bunch of overly priced, impracticable car models that look like they were designed by some avant-garde Italian designer!

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 02:53:43 pm
content: Yeah, driving a Tesla M3 for the last 4 years I can attest to the fact that touchscreens in cars to operate basic functions like wipers, temperature, fog lights et cetera is a stupid idea. The Tesla touchscreen is probably among the best but actual buttons that never move position are much better.So good news that the buttons return. I will even swallow the price hike that will undoubtedly cause.I will make a prediction though. It will not mean less accidents. In my country road accidents went down year after year, right up until 2013. Since then the number started increasing every year. It is not the cars that became unsafer since then. On the contrary, these get safer model after model. I blame the elephant in the room, the holy smartphone. But that is going to need its own thread

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 07:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: woody on April 28, 2023, 02:53:43 pmA modern car *IS* a smartphone, it's just got wheels as well.Rotary knobs and on/off switches can be operated without taking your eyes off the road. The best and most intuitive user interface ever invented.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 07:52:55 pm
content: QuoteOr as youtuber watch wes work put it " Disposable iPods with wheels"

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 07:56:33 pm
content: The car is becoming obsolete anyway. You can just live in the matrix with zero carbon footprint!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 08:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 28, 2023, 07:56:33 pmThe hell you say! As long as there is gasoline I will be driving a car with an IC engine!

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 02:12:39 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 28, 2023, 02:47:55 pmI'm looking to replacing my car but I have never bought a brand new car. I am concerned about buying the car used with all the issues (and expense) modern complexity introduces without ever having gotten the benefits of it being shiny and new. I want cheap, comfortable and convenient. Whether enough people would buy a simpler car is another matter. How many will accept a basic smartphone? Not enough. Especially if they have an eye on resale value or handing it down to family. I doubt it's genetic.Even My kettle can heat to a selected temperature and maintain it for 30minutes. I bought it because it was $5 but now I actually like it. Beeps are irritating but not so much to do something about it.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 04:10:35 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on April 28, 2023, 01:57:26 pmAs someone who was "recently" involved in a crash in a European car (someone hit me up the rear at 40-50 km/hr), I can attest to the pain of trying to get parts from overseas.The insurer (in their wisdom) decided to repair, instead of replace. The vehicle was insured for an agreed value of $63k and was less than 12 months old at the time of the crash, which meant it would have been covered under the insurers "new for old replacement" clause. Except that they didn't deem the vehicle as a total write-off (which they probably should have).The repairs (parts + labour) came in at roughly about $40,000 whilst the entire time I didn't have my car, the insurer was paying for a hire car through Hertz. Let's be really conservative and assume the insurer has an agreement with the hire car company and they get a heavily discounted rate of $50/day. We're talking $19,000+ just to keep me on the road while they repaired my vehicle. Not to mention the $3000 they paid out to me as compensation because I lodged a complaint, not only for the time it took, but all the lost time I wasted chasing them for updates, arranging extensions on the hire car etc... The insurer really dropped the ball on this one and communication was appalling.It tookover 12 monthsto get my car back.Fast forward a few months to now, and my car is back getting repaired. Turns out the wiring harness in the rear of the car was faulty, so the rear and cross traffic alert sensors stopped working. I'm sitting here now, 4 weeks later (with another hire car), waiting for more parts and for the problem to get resolved. Under my policy (which is fairly common here), all repairs are guaranteed for life (even if I sell the car). If anything that was repaired goes wrong or fails (through no fault of mine), it's covered for free, even if I (or the owner of the vehicle) doesn't have an active policy with that company.The only saving grace in this story that the amount of repair work required meant that I basically got a brand new car back, and on visual inspection, the work looks great. Even the dealer admitted that had they not known the vehicle's history, they wouldn't have been able to tell that it was ever crashed (short of pulling data from the management system). Not a single panel is out of alignment and the paint matches perfectly (the benefit of having a white car). Secondly, as the crash wasn't my fault, I haven't had to pay a single cent out of my pocket.In relation to my premium, my last renewal (even after the crash) was about $780 for the year. It's cheap as I elect to pay the maximum excess in the event of an at-fault crash. The poor bastard who hit me is up for $2700 in excess, plus whatever repair costs the insurer is pursuing him for. It's an expensive lesson to learn and why you should always keep your eyes on the road, and not your mobile phone. (Also the silly bugger had no insurance himself, so he is directly liable for costs of not only my claim, but repairing/replacing his own vehicle.)

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:01:49 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 29, 2023, 04:10:35 amNo excuse not to have at least 3rd party insurance in this day and age.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:06:44 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on April 28, 2023, 01:57:26 pmI could be wrong but as the world changes and does what I suspect it might do, these older car parts may invoke a local industry committed to supplying replacement parts with the garbage 'gutted-out'.Watch as the car makers scream bloody blue murder at the law makers.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:07:25 am
content: A touchscreen is nice for some car things, but yeah, buttons for all core functionality.There is something magical about a car with switches and buttons everywhere that all illuminate at night, like the cockpit of an airplane.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:21:08 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 29, 2023, 05:07:25 amPerhaps it's just where I live, but I find most car dashboards/lights are waaaaay too bright. I usually turn them right down to minimum.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:24:58 am
content: I have no idea how touchscreens in cars were ever legal in the first place, they're a horrible idea, there is no way to safely use one, you have to take your eyes off the road.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:25:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 29, 2023, 04:10:35 amNo, it's not that. Replacement parts weren't available, period. There is still a one year wait time for a control unit replacement (any control unit) and headlights as they can't even fit the new cars with them.Here in europe, the normal wait time for replacement goes from same day (smaller parts, belts, harnesses, things like that) to 5-10 days for complete engines, control units (also depending on the amount of paperwork required. Some replacements must be done at the dealer because e.g.: synchronization of the network that has to be authorized and that takes more time because of bureocracy)If parts were available you would have had your car back within a monthQuote from: james_s on April 29, 2023, 05:24:58 amrenault used to block the touch screen while the engine was running (even if it was being operated by the passenger)imagine that in a tesla

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:29:23 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 29, 2023, 05:21:08 amCame from (I think) the Japanese cars starting in the mid '90s. I believe it was in response to old cars having dank dash lights that only got worse as the car aged. I think it was the Lexus that was the first to have this really stunning speedo when you turned the key.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:30:28 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 29, 2023, 04:10:35 amA car is never quite the same after a collision like that. Body shops are usually able to make it look good for a while, but give it 10 years or so and something will start to rust where welding burned galvanizing off, and often you'll find something isn't quite perfectly aligned, and the paint often isn't quite as good as the original.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:43:25 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 28, 2023, 07:56:33 pmIf you don't leave a carbon footprint are you really alive?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:49:13 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 29, 2023, 05:21:08 amyep, dash brightness control is a must.And it has to control every led in every button/switch/display/dash cluster etc..

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 06:20:06 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 29, 2023, 05:25:09 amMost of the parts were coming from Sweden and those that weren't in stock (like wiring harnesses) were made-to-order (apparently).Quote from: james_s on April 29, 2023, 05:30:28 amPerhaps, but I generally don't keep cars that long. But I challenge anyone who can spot this repair job by just looking at the car (including underneath). I have to admit, the repairer did a phenomenal job (and it seems their workmanship is well known to the area). I have a pretty good eye for colour and even I can't tell the difference between the replacement panels and the originals. According to the repairer, white/pearl white is the easiest colour to match. As you start getting into the more obscure colours, they become noticeable.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 10:51:38 am
content: I have an ID.3, and a lot of the controls in the vehicle are touchscreen or cap-touch based.It's the worst thing about the car to be honest. The cruise control settings work well enough because they're within muscle memory with your hands on the wheel, but the rest of the controls require taking your eyes off the road to see where you're touching.Would be glad to have physical controls back.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 04:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on April 29, 2023, 05:01:49 amKeep this in mind, OVER 50% of the drivers in Florida have NO insurance despite the fact that it's been required by the state since about 1969.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 04:53:01 pm
content: You guys will appreciate this: I'm so fed up with modern cars that I am very serious considering buying a 1955 car as my next car. Here is thecompletewiring diagramhttps://ttypes.org/mg-td-tf-wiring-diagram/of that car (2nd diagram).How theHelldid we get from this to the insane levels of complexities that we have today and why do people put up with the costs and complexity, and theextremely poordealer and manufacturer support, of the modern cars!?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 06:19:33 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 29, 2023, 04:30:35 pmI really like the idea NZ has: basic third party liability cover comes from a tax on gasoline/diesel. So per mile you pay for your 3rd party insurance. You are of course responsible for damage to your own vehicle, but that's really only your problem if you damage it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 06:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 29, 2023, 04:30:35 pmThat says more about Florida than the drivers. Over here you'll automatically receive a fine for not having a car insurance. These fines are quite hefty as well.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 06:51:55 pm
content: I'm very happy having most things on the dashboard accessed by a touch screen, but who thought it was a good idea to make all the controls on the steering wheel touch?Most of the complaints people make about touchscreens in cars are really about pathetic UI design. The sizes of touch areas are often too small for someone trying to hit them while driving. In many cars things are very inconsistent, and some commonly used functions you want quick access to every day are buried deep in menus.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 07:13:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 29, 2023, 06:29:18 pmYour car will be seized here, the fines are hefty also, and there's a real possibility of jail time.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 07:19:59 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 29, 2023, 06:51:55 pmI thought the same about my car, but the haptic feedback function and the fact that you can map things based on touch pressure makes it a net win. For instance, the adaptive cruise control - a firm press is +/-5mph, and a light press (quite distinct in force) is +/-1mph.The button also vibrates such that it pretty much feels real - you can just about tell it's not a real button but the effect is close enough to fool you into thinking you've pressed 'something'.I guess a major benefit to this is that they don't have to design safety-critical multiple-redundant switches for things like ACC any more. You must be able to turn off ACC with a single button press (some people forget the brake does this too), which means that you need a doubly redundant switch and that needs to be reliable for the 'life' of the car. So even though you need a haptic actuator with the captouch solution, you probably save money overall.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 07:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 29, 2023, 06:29:18 pmThey'll fine you for not having insurance in Florida too. But not if you're an illegal and you disappear back into the woodwork.Ask me how I know!The biggest problem in Florida isn't this state, it's the fact that SO MANY people here are from out of the state or out of the country and they can just vamoose when they get in trouble with the law. The state isn't going to try and extradite them back to Florida for a traffic offense so once they're gone, that's the end of it. That was huge problem with people from other states; even before illegals started pouring in by the millions.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 07:43:10 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 29, 2023, 07:19:59 pmSheesh, and on my cars I have to tap the (real) button five times, or hold it down for a count of five, to change the speed by 5 MPH. I feel so dated!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 08:08:57 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 29, 2023, 07:19:59 pmIf you have ACC why would you want to set the target speed in 1MPH increments? Do you have some 33MPH speed limits you need to match? My Volvo just sets the car's speed at the time you enable ACC, and moves from there to rounded 5MPH steps on the buttons.How are you going to match the reliability of a redundant physical switch with something as flaky as capacitive touch controls?

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 08:39:03 pm
content: Actually some jurisdictions in the US do have odd speed limits such as 27 MPH. They do it because they think people will take more notice of the odd amount and will more of an effort to stay below the limit.OTOH a lot of people like to bump their speed up a few MPH more that the legal limit since the police (in Florida anyway) usually won't stop you unless you're doing at least 5 MPH over the legal limit. But don't try that in Virginia!! They absolutely will stop you, even for 1 MPH over. Yes, been there done that, and have the ticket to show for it

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 09:10:47 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 29, 2023, 08:08:57 pmI won't comment further for risk of incriminating myself, but maybe the limit could be considered, as a friend of mine declares "speed limit plus some VAT", so the 1mph adjustment is helpful to set an ideal speed.I can easily see why a captouch button would be more reliable than a physical switch. There's no possibility of moisture or dirt getting in or behind the button (that's happened on my previous car that has physical button for ACC, I had to take it off and clean it). The captouch buttons could continuously calibrate themselves to the 'no press' condition so they can handle dirt etc. building up on the switch area. Given the safety-critical nature of controls like this, I am certain the manufacturer has taken a decent amount of effort to ensure they are safe and operable for a very long time.This car also has the option to set the speed limit to the detected road limit, and decelerates automatically to match a new limit. Very clever... a little too clever!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 09:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 29, 2023, 09:10:47 pmTrying to make the continuous adaptation in cap touch sensors be really robust in the presence of things frequently waving around near the pad but not touching it is quite a problem. Not one I've ever seen fully solved. Water on the pad is also a serious problem. The more robust solutions now use guard electrodes, and that has got touch pads into some kitchen appliances where I'm not sure they really belong. A lot of effort has gone into things like phones, and they still screw up the adaptation quite often. Its pretty benign there, as phones aren't usually controlling heavy loads. You just blank the screen, wake it up, and it re-adapts. Not all touch in cars uses the capacitive approach. The IR matrix approach is much more robust, but I don't see how that could be used on a non-flat surface. The kind of inductive touch used in things like security keypads and elevators, where you minutely deform a diaphram can be extremely robust.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 10:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 29, 2023, 06:19:33 pmerr, you must be thinking of a different country. We have 3rd party but you pay for it. Not part of fuel tax.3rd party cover is usually around NZ$200-$350 a yearwhere as full cover is around NZ$600-$1500 a year

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 11:34:23 pm
content: Quotemaybe its a universal design used across the entire range of the manufacturers vehicles,so 56mph would need to be settable

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 08:26:39 am
content: I want to put it to something 7.5 is irritatingly too low and next 0 start affecting speed cameras.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 08:36:39 am
content: the horseless carriage comes full circle

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 08:55:22 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 29, 2023, 10:01:05 pmSeems to be injury-only third party cover, must have misread that it covers everything.https://www.aa.co.nz/insurance/car-and-vehicle-insurance/third-party-car-insurance/third-party-insurance/So I guess you're still liable for property damage, but at least the biggest cost of accidents (which is usually injury and injury compensation) is covered.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 12:22:36 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 29, 2023, 06:51:55 pmNo, the complaint is regardless of the UI design with a touch screen, you *need* to look at it to target. There's no such need with hard buttons and knobs. Touch screens are incompatible with motor memory and tactile cues, so you need to take your eyes off the road to operate one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 04:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on April 30, 2023, 12:22:36 pmThey also usually don't work if you're wearing gloves, which is not uncommon in colder climates, and many of them don't work well with my bare fingers even, I don't know why. The main thing though that should have made them illegal to have in a car is as you mention, the fact that you HAVE to take your eyes off the road to operate it. There is simply no safe way to interact with a touchscreen while driving.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 09:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 30, 2023, 04:19:19 pmThe ones that use IR beams work OK with gloves. Maybe that's why Volvos work that way.I need to look away for the mechanical switches on a dashboard. The only ones that work well by feel are the ones on the steering wheel and stalks, that you use a lot and get really used to.Everything is mysteriously located in a rental car (i.e. one you are not used to), even how to turn the damned headlights on. How come such basic controls as that haven't settled into fairly standard locations like indicators have?

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 10:11:00 pm
content: I very much hope that this trend will not be limited to expensive and very cheap cars.I want buttons and a key starter (no keyless go), but at the same time also would want something like Apple Car Play.All steeringwheel controls (so blinker, highbeam, wiper, cruise control) and at least also the climate control and radio volume i want mechanical. On the other hand i don't care about the main light switch for example, since that would be always on anyway.Im not in the market for a car at the moment, but i wonder if there will be something like this available in the next couple of years without costing an arm and a leg.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 10:31:30 pm
content: so easy to have a accident even trying to change the radio. bring back the seek button

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 12:13:47 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 30, 2023, 09:20:09 pmI don't. My car has a mix of rocker switches, rotary knobs and sliders, they are laid out logically and I know where all of them are. I operate them without looking down easily, similar to how I type without taking my eyes off the screen because I know where all the keys are and muscle memory takes care of the rest. Even having not been in my car in several days I know that to the right of the steering column is the ignition switch, followed by the sunroof switch, then the rear defogger switch, then the heater fan knob, then a slider to select the vents and below that another slider to adjust the temperature.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 12:15:48 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on April 30, 2023, 10:11:00 pmThe DIN slot was invented for a very good reason and it made this easy. Want Car Play? Buy a head unit that offers it. A few years down the road when they've released a new version that doesn't work with your old hardware just buy a new head unit. It was great, far superior to these integrated infotainment systems they all have now.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 12:42:31 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 30, 2023, 08:55:22 amThat is similar to Western Australia, where the third party injury insurance is integral with the vehicle license.(I think it is the only State where this is so).If you want "third party property" insurance as well, you have to arrange that yourself with an insurance company.Third party property was a popular policy for people with old, cheap, cars back in the day, but premiums have drifted up to nearly the same as comprehensive insurance, so most people opt for the better protection with the latter.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 01:05:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 01, 2023, 12:15:48 amThat's fine and dandy but manufacturers prefer to have their own head units, who don't use a DIN Slot, have controls on the steering (that normally you need a extra loom to make it kinda compatible with a different head unit if you have the chance) and an extra screen that loses his functionality if you change the head unit.That if your central console have a DIN Slot behind and there is a front bezel with the hole.Most of them is just a specific bezel/faschia that doesn't have a replacement and you need to hack it to install your own unit.Good that old cars were like that, most new ones you are out of luck.