Siglent just drop its mic: New SDS800HD 12bit scope crazy price leaked - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 03:19:59 pm
content: So long story short: Siglent announced they will release a new scope on December 12, which you probably know is the new 800HD series for completion from Rigol.But today they already put the product information on JD and TaoBao, China's two biggest online stores.And the price is astonishing to me: every different model has the same price as the Rigol DHO800 and 900 Series. So let me explain a bit.DHO802: RMB 1,999SDS802X HD: RMB 1,980DHO804: RMB 2,299SDS804X HD: RMB 2,280...you get the ideaAnd the Siglent has 2GSa, 7 digits frequency counter, faster waveform update rate, better UI... Pretty much every spces just better that RigolHere is the Chinese specs sheet.

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 03:21:54 pm
content: info source:https://item.jd.com/10093223139590.html

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 03:33:19 pm
content: I don't doubt you, but I'm quite skeptical about this price equivalence reaching Europe.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 03:53:00 pm
content: Whether you love or hate Rigol’s oscilloscopes, you have to love what Rigol has done to the oscilloscope market. In that regard, the DHO800 is another DS1054z.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 04:36:13 pm
content: Weird that they try toundercutRigol on price.They're supposed to be the premium brand and they're offering more for less money?PS: Very chunky size compared to Rigol...

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 04:54:55 pm
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on December 08, 2023, 03:53:00 pmIndeed, the whole concept of a fully functional oscilloscope for under a 1000 was Rigol's doing, as is the 500 bucks market.In fact the hate almost always comes from people with financial interest in Siglent or engineers with multi-thousand scopes owned which make a living out of them. I wouldn't bat an eye for a few thousand € in software, server or computers for work either.But a second hand 150 euro PC is more than enough for me at home.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 06:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2023, 04:36:13 pmNot weird at all. Rigol and Siglent arethetwo Chinese scope makers that are trying in earnest to break into the “serious” scope market. The others (Owon, Hantek, etc) are targeting a noticeably lower market. I don’t think one can in any way say that Siglent is more “premium” than Rigol or vice versa, whereas they’re both decidedly ahead of Hantek and co. (It’s also telling that Rigol and Siglent are the only two Chinese scope makers that had/have OEM relationships with top-name DSO manufacturers, in Keysight and LeCroy, respectively.)

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 06:08:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2023, 04:36:13 pmMore or less the SDS1000X-E form factor and layout.Is the screen touch capable?

author: Roger Need
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 06:17:12 pm
content: Here is a translation of the Chinese datasheet to English...

author: TXJD
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 06:18:08 pm
content: More or less the SDS1000X-E form factor and layout.Is the screen touch capable?The datasheet on the top post states the screen is 7" and capacitance touch, at 1024x600 resolution.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 06:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: PELL on December 08, 2023, 03:19:59 pmIn Asia maybe.Western release is set for Q1 '24.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds800x-hd-12-bit-dsos-coming/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 07:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: TXJD on December 08, 2023, 06:18:08 pmAll the knobs and buttons look identical. Maybe they're using the same mold for the rubber keypads on the main panel.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 07:17:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2023, 07:07:20 pmYes at first glance......https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds800x-hd-12-bit-dsos-coming/msg5193477/#msg5193477

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 07:22:18 pm
content: There's a new 4 channel PSU in the PDF.Any news about it?

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 08:00:30 pm
content: 2GSa/s, 70MHz (Hopefully hackable to 200MHz), 12-bit for less than $300? Crazy, will be probably 50% more when finally released.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 08:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2023, 04:36:13 pmSiglent is better then Rigol. It is just a fact.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 08:21:00 pm
content: This one has 0.5% dc accuracy vs 1% in the Rigol, only for that I'd wait a few months

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 08:23:10 pm
content: QuoteIn fact, the quality of the touchscreen models 5000/2000X and 2000X have brought HD Siglent in the direction of premium, with the models 6000A and at the latest with the 7000A they have also arrived there.It would be all the more pleasing if they did not forget their "roots" and continued to bring affordable but good entry-level scopes onto the market.However, I don't believe in the prices "leaked" here, at least not for the global market (I also don't believe that there will be a 70Mhz version available here).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 09:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 08, 2023, 08:23:10 pmWhile this seems correct for SDS1000X HD models, my English SDS800X HD datasheet suggests otherwise.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 09:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 08, 2023, 08:23:10 pmHopefully there will be a hack to downgrade to those 70MHz..

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 09:28:51 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 08, 2023, 04:54:55 pmnah, the """hate""" comes from getting unfinished pieces of garbage and while they have redefined the market three times (1052, 1054 and the new 12bit low cost) and forced others to drop prices and make much better quality instruments more accessible, they remain unfinished pieces of garbage. Every time rigol releases something i'm disappointed because they seem wasted potential. Not only in oscilloscopes.And i'm actually disappointed in siglent having to follow rigol lately, though their 800 series looks much less like a cheap toy

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 09:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on December 08, 2023, 09:28:51 pmWhat do you mean, "lately"? They followed Rigol's 1052 and 1054Z lead as well, didn't they? With arguably better products, but later market entry -- when all the "best new entry level scope" guides had been written and videos produced, so Siglent never gained the same mass-market visibility.Maybe they are fed up with that and really want to show Rigol and the world this time? Here's hoping for killer prices on the 800 and 1000X HD range.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 09:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 08, 2023, 09:14:27 pmAha...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 09:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on December 08, 2023, 09:28:51 pmI agree with general sentiment / hating on Rigol (I've hated them since I once briefly made the mistake of purchasing a 1054Z). But your statement of Siglent following them is inaccurate. Siglent's products come out later, because they're better developed, and that takes time. Releasing unfinished products in alpha stages will always come out faster than products that actually go through proper development and beta testing before hitting the market.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 10:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 08, 2023, 09:55:07 pmAnd a great way to lose customers.I spend the money, I should get a finished product, or would them accept a 50% payment now and 50% when it's done?I want a product that works out of the box properly, maybe some minor bug, but not waiting 2 years to get it sorted.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 10:13:07 pm
content: I'm a diehard Siglent fan, but could not pass up the BF deal on the DHO1074. It's a $999 MSRP scope upgraded to a $1849 MSRP scope that cost me <$600. I'm quite happy with it so far and it blows away my good ol' SDS1104X-E, but I'm still in the honeymoon phase so we'll see.While I would have much rather stayed with Siglent, they just could not compete in that price/performance space. Now that I have the DHO1074 I don't think I'd be interested in anything less than the SDS1000X HD series and I seriously doubt Siglent will slash the price nearly as much. MAYBE for next BF? If the 1000X HD scopes are *that* much better than the DH1000 scopes and come in below $1K, then I *might* consider selling the DHO1074. I'm sure I can recoup my investment and then some. For now, I remain quite happy with what I've got.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 10:25:13 pm
content: I've had the DHO804 here for 2 months for testing, I bought it especially so that I could test it for that long.Since I had the DHO4204 for 3 weeks at the beginning of this year and now the DHO804, I know that the software is the same on all scopes.I think one of the basic applications, the FFT function, is pretty screwed up.Not only do you not have a choice of different modes, the function itself is buggy, keyword windows (flat top, Hanning, etc).This is a no-go for such a basic function, something that distinguishes a DSO from an analog CRT scope.The advantages of a functioning FFT equipped with various modes are obvious, see picture.And you don't even need a scope like mine for this, the SDS1140X-E can already do that.And even more so the SDS800X HD, 1000X HD...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 11:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on December 08, 2023, 10:01:12 pmCome on... there's a bug thread for every single Siglent product. Some have never been fixed.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2023, 11:25:28 pm
content: Which serious bugs have not yet been fixed, for which models?Have you tested this after every firmware upgrade for your Siglent scope?Please give some examples, not all feature requests are fulfilled, but the Siglent people are pretty alert when it comes to bugs, if they are bugs and not user error / ignorance of the manual (RTFM).

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 01:07:49 am
content: guys, be nice to each otheranyway, as a DHO804 user, I would like to see what Rigol will do to respond to this.I mean, from the hardware perspective, the 800X HD is just better except for the portability right?But DHO has a more powerful computing platform (RK3399 vs. probably ZYNQ built in ARM cores). The only thing they can do now is focus on their buggy software and make it better.Otherwise, RIgol will lose this competition at least in China

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 01:44:50 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 09, 2023, 01:07:49 amWe'll have to wait for a teardown but I imagine the Rigol is cheaper to produce due to their ASIC.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 02:17:54 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 09, 2023, 01:44:50 amWell look at the bigger picture.....It has been said SDS2000X HD was too cheap considering the cost of its HW.SDS2000X HD which uses two 2 GSa/s 12 bit ADC's has now dropped in price, why ?Could it be those ADC's are now cheaper or by now using more so to buy at better pricing ?Either way, it appears the price reduction is also flowing into the new lower cost 12 bit models where sales number will be higher.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 06:53:04 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 08, 2023, 09:55:07 pmcalling it "800" and a couple of other small details makes me think there was a rushed marketing decision in the branding of this instrument just before release and i can't get that out of my head. This is what disappoints me, nothing else. I was also disappointed when they gave in to the stupid zoom out debacle (i don't understand how your instrument works so it must be wrong FIIIIIIX IIIIIIT REEEEEEEEEEE - insert angry pepe - ) but at least that has been settled for good so it was probably a smart choice to give in

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 07:55:10 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 08, 2023, 03:19:59 pmBut why you forget () to tell that only full power and full memory version, 200MHz SDS824X HD, price is there in JD, RMB 4580There was also told waiting time. 2 week.As can see in data sheet 70 and 100MHz versions have limited memory and limited wfm/s speed. They are "economy" versions. Only full version is SDS824XHD70MHz and 100MHz versions price difference based to JD is 400RMB.My prognose based on Siglent's past longtime behavior is that only 100MHz and 200MHz models and probably only 4-channel models come to the western market. But who knows, behavior may suddenly change. I just don't believe in that change. At least if there is no reason. Secondly, why should good things be sold cheaply.Then, there is higher price SDS1000X HD if want higher premium quality in this performance class (and 50 ohm inputs, bigger display and some other things. It is not display alone what rise weight over 50%... ).

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 08:17:56 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on December 09, 2023, 06:53:04 amThere was some of that, yes, but the point about the memory management was a valid one, and there were quite a few competent engineers which used the scope in that manner when debugging.The fact that Siglent addressed it is a good thing, it doesn't take anything out for those of you that know so much, and just adds functionality.It's just a tool. They don't "give in", just try to cater to as many engineers as possible.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 10:00:48 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 09, 2023, 07:55:10 amDo you have information what these "other things" would be? Comparing the spec sheets of the 824X HD and the 1204X HD, the display size and 50 Ohm inputs were the only differences I noticed. (And the bigger box.) EDIT: The 1000 series also has a second USB host port.Thank you for further details!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 11:34:30 am
content: QuoteThe 800 will also have this, like the 1104X-E on the back.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 11:38:59 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 09, 2023, 10:00:48 amJust as when measuring things with instruments, one should also prefer sufficient accuracy when reading or other way observing.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 11:46:11 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 09, 2023, 11:38:59 amOr you could just write a helpful reply.Seriously, man -- what's wrong with you? As stated, I did compare those data sheets and did not note further differences. I found the comparison tedious, since there are still fragments of Chinese which I can't read. I posted a genuine, interested question. And you come back with this "fuck you" response. Bad day?

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 01:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 09, 2023, 11:38:59 amJust as in the rest of human interactions, in a forum one should prefer to remain silent instead of implicitly insulting someone without reason.The question is relevant, whether you want to answer it or not.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 04:12:31 pm
content: It read more to me like a friendly jab. Or like when people reply with RTFM.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 04:40:41 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 09, 2023, 04:12:31 pmMight be. I certainly wouldn't read it that way but, if that is the case, I apologize. Rfloop posts usually look more like a bash in the head, more than a jab, but forum posts lack nuance, it's possible I guess.Still, the elephant in the room is that, as far as we know, both scopes are basically the same. A brief overview of the differences wouldn't have taken much more time than a snarky response, at least for someone with good knowledge of both scopes, taking into account the obvious differences are known: attenuation detection, 50ohms bigger screen. ¿Is the FPGA/processor different? ¿More protocol decoders? ¿Triggers? ¿Math functions? ¿10MHz reference in/out?We can certainly try to compare partially translated datasheets, or maybe we can ask the Siglent distrubutors with prerelease samples. We are not entitled to get an answer, but the response above came out of nowhere.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 05:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2023, 11:19:16 pmThen meet Hantek products, Siglent will look perfect.At work, I have a RF analyzer from Rigol which randomly resets everything, or measures completely wrong.Set center freq, span, resolution... 10 minutes later it went back to 1GHz and default resolution.Or when measuring armonics / floor noise... you get -70dBm, now leave it alone for 10 minutes and when coming back it reads -30dBm.At first you blame the circuit, but when you test others that were already working... the analyzer is to blame.Check everything, settings are correct.Reboot, no difference.Set defaults, reconfigure it... sometimes it will work... at 2nd or 3rd attempt. Luckly it will work for another 30 minutes.Though I'm not discarding a hardware failure, perhabs a faulty relay in the signal path / attenuator block, or something like that, but I don't think so, that wouldn't randomly reset the configuration!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 06:04:01 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 09, 2023, 04:12:31 pmI read it as arrogant and unhelpful. And am still curious regarding the alleged further differences between the two product lines.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 06:23:00 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 09, 2023, 11:38:59 amQuite.So many consider themselves engineers but fail to accurately read datasheets.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 06:44:59 pm
content: I don’t have either the SDS800X HD or the 1000 X HD.All I can do is browse the Google-translated data sheets (and maybe use my experience).Here are the differences to the SDS1000X HD that I’ve found so far:SDS800X HD has no external trigger input.SDS800X HD has no 50 ohm inputs.SDS800X HD has no probe factor detection.SDS800X HD has only 7” capacitive touch screen, but at the same resolution 1024 x 600.SDS800X HD has less serial protocols: CAN-FD and FlexRay are missing.SDS800X HD has only 2 USB host ports.Triggers appear to be the same as even the SDS2000X HD (12 + serial).Additional trigger goodies like holdoff by events or zone trigger are missing in both the SDS800X HD and SDS1000X HD.Measurements are the same as SDS1000X HD, which in turn lacks just a single measurement compared to the SDS2000X HD.Measurement statistics appear to be on par with SDS1000X HD and SDS2000X HD (buzzwords: histicons, trend and track plots).Math appears to be identical and similarly advanced as on the SDS2000X HD.Yet in my opinion the few differences are enough to make the SDS1000X HD very attractive in comparison. For me, the 50 ohm inputs and the larger screen alone would be worth it.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 06:59:32 pm
content: The ext trigger can be very useful too. But yeah, the 50Ohm path and the screen can be a deal-breaker. Thanks! The additional decodes don't really make much difference for me.I'd be curious to know if there are more internal differences, but I'll have to wait for a teardown, as I cannot accurately read that in the datasheet.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 07:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 09, 2023, 11:34:30 am1000 have 3x USB host. One in back side and two in front panel.800 have 2x USB host. One in back side and one in front panel.Both have 1x USB device in back side.(example in case when use USB for external generator for FRA and want USB flash for save data and want also use mouse for control...also some probes may use USB power )1000 have ExtTrig800 do not have.1000 have probe detect800 do not haveAnd of course 50ohm inputs and bigger screen.Then 800 have less (CAN FD and FlexRay are missing) serial decoders than 1000All based to officially published chinese data sheet, user manual and quick-guide what are available from Siglent domestic web sides.And then also these differences in memory and wfm/s speed between 200MHz and <200MHz SDS800X HD models.oh... Performa01 was fast...

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 07:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on December 09, 2023, 06:44:59 pmThank you, that's a very helpful and concise summary. The big items (screen size and 50 Ohms), as well as the extra USB host port, I had already mentioned in my question about differences. But I had overlooked that the external trigger input is only offered in the 1000 series.I do agree that the larger screen and the 50 Ohm inputs are very desirable indeed. Let's hope the 1000X HD will be priced attractively. So far, the larger screen has commanded a disproportionately high price (across all manufacturers) -- seems that it is seen as a key distinction between "entry level" and "lower middle class" scopes, with a corresponding step in market prices. Well, we will find out about the European and US prices eventually.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 10:22:01 pm
content: QuoteAfter all, you can immediately recognize visually that these are larger models.Either way.

author: Serg65536
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2023, 10:45:01 pm
content: The price claim is, probably,a trick to drop down rigol dho800 sales. THERE IS NO WAY TO BEAT RIGOL PRICES WITH THIRD PARTY COMPONENTS! Rigol custom ICs are much cheaper for them.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 01:20:41 am
content: Quote from: Serg65536 on December 09, 2023, 10:45:01 pmWhat makes you make such a claim ?Have you done a teardown of each and made a BOM ?The SW costs of each are minimal as they share the UI/GUI of existing models.Please when you have revelations that are of real interest/fact there is then not even a need to yell.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 01:50:25 am
content: As somebody who was about to order an SDS1104X-E I'm interested to know what they will do in regards to timestamps on this new model? RTC or NTP?PS: I've been pretty sick of late so the acquisition of the new scope hasn't been a priority, making sure I'm around to learn how to use it is probably a bit more important.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 01:56:14 am
content: QuoteGuys, we don't know anything at the moment.We will only know more when it comes onto the market and then we will also know the prices.Until then, it's all just speculation.Apart from that, it is rather unlikely that siglent will copy rigol, because that would mean an unfinished product with zero support and meager features.Then you might as well go for the original.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 06:19:13 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 10, 2023, 01:50:25 amDatasheet specfies NTP is supported.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 11:24:09 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 08, 2023, 10:25:13 pmIf you're an ordinary FFT user then there'sNO WAY IN HELLthat should be taken as buying advice though. The DHO800's FFTworks just finefor picking out frequencies/harmonics in a signal, and literally everything else about the DHO800 blows those antique 'scopes into the last century.The DHO's FFT probably works better than the Siglent for most people because it's so easy to set up and use. Pinch/zoom makes it really easy to set center/span, too. Siglent FFT might have the "missing" parameter but even Dave managed to screw something up when he tried to use it (Siglent apologists swear it was Dave's fault, not the 'scopes fault. Right?)As noted in this thread: Siglent is promising a response to Rigol and nobody who's thinking about buying a new 'scope should be looking at a SDS1140X-E right now (not unless it['s for a critical job that needs doingthis weekand they found a very specialized case thatonlythe SDS1140X-E can do and I'm tired of having to spell out the exceptions to all the oscilloscope lawyers in the forum)If you're aheavy/precise/criticalFFT user then a specialized device will blow away these 'scopes anyway, so...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 11:53:02 am
content: I find your enthusiasm admirable, but unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that the FFT function doesn't run smoothly with the Rigol (with all models).There is still hope that rigol will turn around and put more work into the software.We don't need to say a word about the operation of the rigol, its user interface in general, which I consider to be one of the best on the market.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 06:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2023, 11:24:09 amCorrect and proven Dave has no idea byseveralmembers posts in other threads.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 07:04:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2023, 11:24:09 am🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Who would dare claim Dave is capable of making mistakes?!?!?!?!?! How dare they!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 07:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 10, 2023, 06:44:57 pmAsk yourself this though: if somebody like Dave, who is not new to oscilloscopes at all, can't get it to work; how about a hobbyist / novice user? There is a lot to say for tools which are intuitive to use and Rigol seems to have hit the nail on the head. -insert Monty Python's ministry of funny walks video here-

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 08:22:15 pm
content: There's not that much to adjust to get the right result - if even I can do it, that means something.And I wasn't alone, others have managed it too.It's just a question of whether you want it or not and obviously it wasn't wanted if the operator is actually an expert in the field.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 09:21:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 10, 2023, 07:21:47 pmI tried to make that argument earlier and got myself flamed by the Siglent club.So long as the peaks/noise are easy to find and measure (which they are) then what's the problem?

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 11:03:56 pm
content: I preferred the Siglent I had to the Rigol I had, this news makes me happy that I didn't jump on the 12-bit Rigol already. Looking forward to seeing real price and availability figures and of course the full review.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 08:30:15 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 10, 2023, 07:21:47 pmI would not say that Dave has no idea, but also he is not advanced user either. Not because he couldn't be. He is a smart guy.But let's be frank, he prefers certain type of workflow and anything that is different he simply ignores. And also he says all the time "I couldn't be bothered to read the manual" and then fumbles around scope buttons and knobs twiddling them nervously until screen starts showing something familiar. He has no patience...That makes for entertaining videos. Which is what he does for living.He did that for R&S scopes, and Rigol scopes and all of the scopes that are not Keysight, that he knows how to drive...Dave's videos are not a reference. They are data point. With specific features. Very useful but not a reference.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 09:23:53 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 11, 2023, 08:30:15 amAnd it's quite the opposite of the clueless claims.It is not hard at all to setup an FM spectrum display, yet it proved impossible (for me at least) to reproduce the weird display Dave has shown in the video. This is what I said in the review thread about the incident:Quote

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 09:31:49 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 10, 2023, 07:04:06 pmPistols at dawn surely?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 01:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: PELL on December 08, 2023, 03:19:59 pmif this is true, i'll KIV and waiting with eager... at first glance 2GSps is the winning point, but DHO800 has sig gen and LA probe port to tap in so i bet its going to be a harsh competition. i treat this development/news as positive, we are a fan of "bang per buck" not rigol nor siglent... fwiw...

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 01:37:26 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 11, 2023, 01:16:06 pmAdding the signal generator and logic probe interface to the DHO800 will be relevant for less than 1% of the customers, I'd say. It's a very physical "hack"...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 01:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 11, 2023, 01:16:06 pmMake sure to explain that your " but DHO800 has sig gen and LA probe port" statement means disassembling scope, and soldering chips on motherboard and installing DHO900 SW and.... And even then nobody did it yet and not everybody will be willing or able to do it. Just saying. If you can, good for you.I (and many others) prefer to buy my scope as a finished product with warranty not as a DIY "assemble yourself at your own responsibility" kit.Please compare like for like...

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 03:51:36 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 11, 2023, 01:38:06 pm+ cutout in the housing for the LA thing...But generally I don't know why there are two groups that throw rocks at each other. Competition is good. Hobbyists probably greatly benefit from Siglent vs Rigol competition. There is, however, a risk that the overall quality and sw readiness will suffer over time in attempt to be the first on the market.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 04:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: Warhawk on December 11, 2023, 03:51:36 pmNot only risk. It's a reality already!

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 05:06:15 pm
content: I might be wrong, but my perception is that there are a few die-hard Siglent fans here, a couple of Siglent distributors and another two or three Siglent testers.They go around the forum, especially Rigol threads continuously, showing how $3k scopes are better in every regard than $300 ones, and there is even a $400 Siglent scope that ismuchbetter at FFT than Rigol.There are surely die-hard Rigol fans, but they aren't as active. You can identify pretty clearly who I'm talking about, because they only show specific things that are better on Siglent, and never anything that's better on Rigol. They are also really active in the forum and, besides their (nonprofit?) Siglent PR and advertisement work, they are competent engineers, useful contributors and, most of them, quite nice actually.EDIT: They sometimes aren't as nice, if you dare to criticize Siglent. They might even be capable of questioning the professional competence of some users if they dare to chose a cheaper Rigol over Siglent for hobby use, which nobody competent enough would doI think every hobbyist has to thank Rigol for driving a very strong competition, pushing the rest of manufacturers to compete in price and features, and also has to thank Siglent, for bringing refined software and higher-end analytical features to the entry level TM market.I sometimes get "sports team fan" vibes from the arguments about Siglent vs Rigol. Again, I might be wrong, but hardly biased.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 05:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: Warhawk on December 11, 2023, 03:51:36 pmwe usually dont throw rock at siglent, its them thats starting. but now as long as its not insulting to the intelligence, even if they throw at us, i dont feel like to throw back at them because i feel"i'm invincible, i'm unstoppable, i'm so powerful, i dont need batteries today". its them thats threaten not us, thats why this thread exists. cheers.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 05:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 05:06:15 pmThis sounds like a heavily biased perspective to me. I see a lot of threads on here, and it's basically impossible to have a Siglent thread without some specific Rigol fanboys flinging mud and mediocre opinions.Personally, I hate Rigol, based on my experience with my first scope being a 1054Z. I don't go posting hate in Rigol threads though. The only thing I've said in a Rigol thread was giving kudos for them adding VESA mounts on some of their new scopes, because I think it's a cool feature.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:06:07 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 11, 2023, 05:56:45 pmSorry, you don't get your hate for a whole brand to be taken seriously out of a single experience of a single range and single class instrument. There are PSUs, DMMs, SAs, VNAs and a whole host of test equipment from Rigol. Also alotmore scopes. You disliked a piece of TM equipment, nothing more, nothing less.We all know the SDS2000X-Plus is a great instrument. Often, "Being a fan", and almost always "hating" are just not rational stances, just comfortable ones.In any case, look at recent Rigol threads. There are more pics from Siglent 'scopes than Rigol ones in some of them. The fact that you don't do it doesn't mean it hasn't been done.Edit: I might be mistaken, and I might have some kind of personal bias based on the manners of some users, my own interpretation of posts, etc. What I meant is than I am not biased towards any of the brands because I'm not investedat all, neither in Rigol equipment nor Siglent. I want a 12 bit scope, and it will most likely be a Siglent one. But I don't have any kind of attachment or feelings (positive or negative) towards the brands. They are just the ones I can afford new.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 06:06:07 pm🤣🤣🤣 I don't need you to take my Rigol hate seriously, it isn't that serious. If it makes you feel better, l also hate their design choices for their UI, I hate that they release unfinished alpha level toys, etc. For me, there's plenty to hate about them. Also, hate in this case is an exaggeration, Istrongly dislikethem, but hate types out faster. 😉I have lots of positive feelings towards Siglent. I've had excellent experiences across a number of devices, and their support, for years. My worst experience with Siglent is them offering only a 50% discount to calibrate a DMM I bought used...and let's face it, that's still pretty damn generous.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:20:11 pm
content: Edit: I might be mistaken, and I might have some kind of personal bias based on the manners of some users, my own interpretation of posts, etc. What I meant is than I am not biased towards any of the brands because I'm not investedat all, neither in Rigol equipment nor Siglent. I want a 12 bit scope, and it will most likely be a Siglent one. But I don't have any kind of attachment or feelings (positive or negative) towards the brands. They are just the ones I can afford new.+1We use Rigol and Siglent, what was appealing was the possible SW upgrades, on Both BrandsThey have their own quirk, i learn to navigate thru them, 12 bit was due for a long time at cheap pricing1 brand output a 12bit, the other will ... just a matter of time, one 14 bits you know the drillWhat is important to me is : the brand is open to comments / acknowledge and upgrade their FW to resolve bugs, rapidly not a year or two laterand yes after reading 3 pages it seems more a fan boy battle between brands

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 11, 2023, 06:17:49 pmIt cannot be taken seriously in the sense that it cannot help anyone making a decision about Rigol, other than "Don't buy a DSO1054Z", which nobody will do anymore (new).As per the "unfinished alpha level toys", this is exactly the problem. That's a value judgement coming out ofhateorstrong dislike. The new Rigol range, with all it's flaws, has excellent tools for basic 'scope use, and then more. It's the equivalent of calling someone an idiot or some other insult more or less elaborated. Just not useful at all.Siglent has gotten a lot of that from "A" brands only users, and I find that extremely unhelpful too, and akin to the way a sports team fan talks about competitor sports teams.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on December 11, 2023, 06:20:11 pmif this battle continues, i may delete all my posts to unsubscribe. i'm not interested in battle. i need to get update when this siglent will be available in aliexpress... and if its true its going to beat or same price as rigol...Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 06:27:02 pmbut it was the cheapest 4CH 1GSps DSO back then. siglent (which i think has better spec from fans review) tries to beat rigol in price imho is desperate moves. its being threaten i think?

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:37:32 pm
content: My apologies. I'll stop.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:40:07 pm
content: QuoteI like rigol.After 2 months of almost daily testing, I would say it is not yet a fully mature product.That sounds nicer, but actually says the same thing.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 11, 2023, 06:40:07 pmNo, It doesn't. A toy, by definition and design, is not a tool.A partially unfinished tool, that needs more development (as did the MSO5000), is just not a toy.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 06:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 06:43:49 pmEven toy hammers can smash things. 😉

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 07:05:01 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 11, 2023, 06:40:07 pmwhen i first got ds1054z, of course there are bugs here and there but imho its not the core functionality of an "oscilloscope". anyone remember "pluses"? but from time to time, minor bugs got fixed. i'm not sure about serial decoder since i dont use it, i consider it as bell and whistle. another major (minor?) function i need (brought down from ds1052e) is downloadable data to PC, this one i cant let go. and it also got fixed from time to time, so i continue to be a rigol user. others may have different experience. some bugs also not fixed such as laggy UI, maybe its the limit. at one point in time, i thought about siglent programmability to download data to PC, but since there is no example people have done it, and i dont feel i will have extra benefit and its higher price, so i thought "maybe next time", who knows maybe this is the time? lets see. in fact today i'm still using ds1054z on my main bench, the dho804 is going to be my "lab rat" now until maybe its FW/hackability is fully matured. fwiw...Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 06:43:49 pmi'm sorry for you people not knowing how to use it as a DSO.if ds1054z is a toy, i will still have ds1052e running now as main DSO, but unfortunately it gave up after heavy hack and probably end of life ROM...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 07:19:10 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 06:27:02 pmYour statements here are just wrong. Rigol released HDO series a YEAR ago. 5 months ago they released cheap end of range.All of them with software in alpha state of development. If you don't understand what that means ask somebody to explain it to you.Hint: software look, feel and feature set needs to be complete and frozen in specification. It needs to be fully implemented. It needs to be able to pass basic featureset testing.There were parts of U/I missing or being redefined, BODE plot was not right, FFT windowing coefficients are not correct. There were errors in displaying data in different timebases, there are errors in triggering, decodes etc... That is software that was released in alpha stage.Beta stage software is feature complete but it wasn't tested in depth. All works but full stress test of production work was not tested.If Rigol released in that stage that would be fine. But they didn't.It is not hate. It is simply truth. And those are things that were obvious. Just imagine what is yet to be discovered from those real obscure bugs that show only at specific settings.Rigols software making process for these scopes is horrible. You can see it from results.And my opinion is like that because this is not first time. MSO5000/7000 release was complete mess too. Took them years to bring them to decent condition.As for fanboys.I am Rigol user. I have DM3068, DP831A, DG1062Z. I had DS1074Z before.If I have any "feeling" towards Rigol it is disappointment. DS1074Z was cute little scope but had too many compromises. Shame, but if they only fixed few stupid things it would have been great scope not only OK for the money. Missed opportunity.DP831A was bought as advanced PSU with measurements, monitoring, arbitrary V/A generation etc. It is low noise (electrically). First one died on me in warranty, was sent another one. Good service from Rigol. But PSU is loud even on idle and very much so under any load. GUI is so poorly written that using any advanced function is so hard I ended not using it for any of those (although I paid for it). So now I use it as simple low noise linear 2+1 Ch PSU. Overvoltage protection is in software. It takes 400ms to react. Yes, 0.4 seconds. And it is stupid that if you set OVP for 5 volts, and then go to that channel and set it for 30V and enable channel, not only it will let you set 30V, it will enable channel and then only 400ms later it will trip protection...Etc, etc. It could have been fantastic PSU but failed to fulfil its promise. By inferior software design.Same with DM3068. It is a 6.5digit DMM that is accurate and stable. But software has same problems. It is just weird and quirky.DG1062Z is my favourite of them all. Very nice AWG, stable, clean signal, even nice GUI for AWG setting. But they had to screw up something. Counter is crap... Since I don't use it, I don't care and that instrument is my favourite from them all. So from my personal experience over more than 5 years and with 4 devices it is does seem like Rigol as a company has this running theme.And it really is a shame, because (apart from that DP831A that got replaced) they are all working for 5+ years and have been reliable so far.So next time before you fanboy him or him or her, make sure to make your facts straight.And there ARE rabid Rigol fanboys that come to Siglent posts and just spew stupid things. Read this post from beginning ad you will recognize them too.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 07:25:09 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 11, 2023, 06:37:15 pmYou are hilarious.It is called market. If they decided to make product in that space, they need to have product that sells. And price is part of that.But this whole topic is just a bunch of bickering about something that makes no sense.DHO800 is not released in west yet. We don't have idea if it even will. If it does, then price will not be shaped same as in China.Discussing how Rigol And Siglent compete in certain segment in their domestic market might be fun to some, but it will have no correlation to us in any way.China is different planet in that regard.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 07:31:44 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 11, 2023, 07:25:09 pmi thought you can get it from aliexpress, no?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 08:08:26 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 11, 2023, 07:31:44 pmI'm not rich enough to spend several hundred euros on something that I don't even get warranty for...My limit for that kind of purchase would be 20-30 € max.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 08:13:52 pm
content: no! rich people only buy from legit local distributor

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 08:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 11, 2023, 08:13:52 pmNot all is as it seems.Importing in bulk provides for better buy and shipping costs where we can stick close to RRP then there is always local taxes but buying ePay or Ali you can get hit for those too.Smart/wise ppl want local support and warranty rather than gamble with a $20 saving......YMMV

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 10:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 11, 2023, 07:19:10 pmI recall posting in a DHO800 thread, with a similar theme, that actually your inputs were among the ones I valued the most, as I saw them as non-biased and coming from experience. But you always have to take everything as personal and bring out the beligerant bully, don't you?Whatfactsdid I get wrong, mind you? Can you point me to a single instance in this thread with the word "fanboy" in one of my posts? Maybe fans? Are those wordsfactuallythe same? Maybe they have different "connotations" and you are talking about factoids?I'm afraid you won't find ANY statement in my posts about "alpha" or "beta" software state, but it seems you need to call bullshit on imagined statements? What about my first post that starts with:Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 05:06:15 pmdoes that look to you like the beginning of a fact sheet?Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 05:06:15 pmIs that, by any chancefactuallyfalse? Or maybe you just don't give a damn because you are not a hobbyist? Or consider it a subjective opinion and you have your own?MSO5000, DHO800, are they (or were) toys? Let me help you with facts:Apparently, you considered necessary to go out in shining armor with your facts to fight an inexistent "non alpha" claim, to cover for the "toy" facts. I'd rather have a DHO1000 "toy" than an old CRO tool, or the telephone in question.Were the DS1000z, DM3068, DP831A,when they came out, generally better than anythingat their price range? Excluding, of course, used A brand equipment. Were they, by any chance, a driving factor for competition from other manufacturers? In particular, did Siglent follow suit and released a slightly more expensive and quite a bit more polished product?As per the DMM3068, it got a pretty good, exhaustive review from Sahriar. Maybe "quirky" is a bit of a subjective undetermined concept (by definition) and not a fact.Really, please, point me the facts that need to be straightened. Because I will without problem, but no need to unearth the tomahawks.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 11:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 11, 2023, 06:40:07 pmAre you calling it "alpha level"? That's not true at all.The problem is that you've spent 2 months deliberately focusing on perceived weaknesses so that's what's been in your head.Reality check: There's very few bugs (four or five) and all of them have simple workarounds (no showstoppers).

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 11:15:02 pm
content: QuoteAt last someone is telling me what my problems are, I've been waiting my whole life for this.I'm a testfield technician by profession, testing has been my daily job for 20 years and I'm now head of the department.I approach such test courses with an open mind, anything else would be counterproductive.I have experience with previous rigol scopes, DS1054Z, DS2072, MSO5074, DHO4204.And as I said to your address, if the rigol only had 4-5 bugs, it would be the most mature product on the entire market.Even you don't really believe that, do you?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 12:21:40 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 11, 2023, 11:15:02 pmouh really? and i am a hobbiest, and you cant get FFT right on DHO800.. why is that?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5202852/#msg5202852https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5203848/#msg5203848i'm not trying to dickwave rigol fanboyism here, but some people here are just not up to what they claimed they are... verily not imho... the other guy claimed a brand representative but have no or little clue on sampled vs interpolated points... i have to make a whole pages of gibbs and sinc interplation course and they can hardly understand

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 12:46:04 am
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 06:27:02 pmYou may think that, but I've tried very hard to use Siglent equipment in a professional / commercial environment and ran into failure after failure. The A-brands really do have an advantage because they are decades ahead where it comes to experience designing equipment and knowing what engineers really need. There is a lot more to test equipment than a datasheet with a list of specifications. Ofcourse this reflects back on the price but spending days or weeks chasing a problem that ends up to be a problem in the test equipment becomes really expensive really quickly (in some cases exceeding the price for buying A-brand equipment from the start). I regret very little in life but buying Siglent equipment is one of the things I regret deeply.

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 01:03:47 am
content: Guys.... be nice to each other.The original idea for making this post was to share some little funny toys with you guys. But it ends up as an argument.If this argument continues, I will probably lock down this thread (If I can)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 01:25:35 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 12, 2023, 01:03:47 amThis is normal...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 01:26:45 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 12, 2023, 12:46:04 amJoesmith (of meter destruction fame) tells a similar story.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 01:43:04 am
content: As a software engineer by profession, similar "religious" arguments between brand A and brand B, or product A and product B, are not at all uncommon. Wars about programmer's editors (edlin vs Brief vs PE2 vs vi vs emacs) or IDEs (Borland vs Microsoft vs Eclipse vs NetBeans vs VSCode...) or languages (C vs C++ vs Java vs Python vs ...) have always existed and always will. Programmers are really passionate about their tools and like to get awfully worked up about it. Not unlike the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge folks, or the XBox vs Playstation folks.Obviously, hardware guys are the same about their test equipment.Me personally, I rose above all that years ago. Give me the best tool for the job. I'm always open to change, and am always looking for the next new tool. I can be happy with a tool for years, and will drop it in a heartbeat if I find another I like better. So I'm no "fanboy." I own Macs and PCs, Linux and Windows, I code in C/C++, Java, C#, Javascript, Python... whatever gets the job at hand done. I own both XBox and Playstation consoles. And so on.Sure, I tend to lean towards brands I like. I have an affinity towards Siglent because it was the "B" brand that I started with when I equipped my own hobby lab. I saw Rigol gear was popular with hobbyists, but something about Siglent just spoke to me so that's the route I went. And I have this unhealthy obsession (OCD?) with matching my gear unless something is just totally trash. I'll tend to prefer 80% of the value or functionality just to have the same brand as another piece of gear at 100%.I did not jump on the DHO800/900 bandwagon because I wanted to see it play out, and it looked like a bumpy start. Based on what I'd been hearing and reading, that was typical for Rigol. But Siglent dragging their feet on releasing an entry level 12-bit scope that could compete, and me itching for an upgrade for my SDS1104X-E (even though I don't really *need* an upgrade), combined with Rigol's investment in custom ASICs with no sign that Siglent was doing the same kind of investment, kept my mind open on Rigol.The nail in the coffin was the 40% off BF deal on the DHO1074. Within minutes of receiving it, I had it "liberated" to its full potential with the upgrades. The equivalent DHO model is $1849. I paid $563+tax delivered. And it's beautiful! It's definitely not a "toy" as some people put it. Have I stressed it to the buggy breaking point yet? Nope. Will I ever? Maybe not, I'm just a hobbyist that works more in the digital world than analog (though I do dabble a little). Like I said, I couldn't really justify the upgrade. But I wanted to upgrade, and so far I'm very happy with my Rigol -- even if it's the only Rigol among four other Siglent devices.Had it not been for the BF sale, I'd still be waiting for Siglent to release something comparable in price/features. And if/when they DO finally release something comparable in the US, I'll consider offloading the Rigol and getting it. Or maybe not. But in the meantime, I have a very nice, very useful Rigol scope that I'm quite happy with. Maybe I'll placate my OCD by printing a Siglent badge to stick over the Rigol one, LOL.EDIT: Oh, and I've definitely noticed the Rigol fans crapping in Siglent threads. That definitely cuts both ways.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:19:33 am
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 11, 2023, 10:04:34 pmYes, they are (or maybe the 5k were, i dropped out of the conversation as soon as it was found to be "hackable to the much much higher specced instrument". Clearly they both are valued the same, not very much apparently. I lurked on the Bugs thread and shook my head a few times for what they managed to get wrong and still release to the public, that's it. Now it's probably really usable)You need to get your facts straight.Rigol keep releasing heavily unfinished products, both hardware and firmware, that is a fact. Some get eventually fixed/finished over time but if you only look at them in their finished state, without understanding that they have been in the hand of the customer as unfinished for quite some time before, you can't possibly understand what we mean.And while we users may be condoning this behaviour on the bottom of the barrel line, the moment you can afford better class instruments and see the same patterns repeating you really lose confidence in them.It always baffled me that they had enough money and R&D to come up with their ASIC but then again release those line of products, such wasted potential. Because you mentioned it, I had genuinely high hopes for the 5000 series but as soon as it came out they were "fully hackable" to the much higher specced and much higher priced counterpart, i immediately lost faith in them because the pattern was being repeated again and again. Imagine instead a siglent scope using those ASICs.Really, if you can't see the flaws in the software side you either never used "proper" scopes, or are only using a tool at a fraction of their potential, which is completely fine but you can't really judge as being fanboys.Thankfully i advanced in my career enough that i no longer can only afford the cheapest stuff (I previously owned a 1054Z and other even cheaper tools which i hated to use every single time, but couldn't afford anything else) and at some point i chose to put my money on siglent and that decision paid off. This is why i both praise and critique siglent (and what i said in previous posts was probably not my conjecture.)From time to time i get the change to play with rigol items because reasons, nothing i have seen made me change my opinion

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:26:21 am
content: SDS800X HD model serie is now officially released inside China.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:26:35 am
content: QuoteBecause I can't do magic.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:29:06 am
content: On a sarcastic note: does it have CandyCrush and WhatsApp ?But seriously, I am curious of this penetration (in the physiological sense) of test equipment by Google.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:48:33 am
content: Quote from: rteodor on December 12, 2023, 07:29:06 amWell, that is the topic over there in Rigol user base. No Android in Siglent (at least so far).NOt related to you:To all those who claim there is no trolling from antiSiglent people, just look at this thread.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 08:06:10 am
content: I said there are less Rigol fans in Siglent threads than Siglent fans in Rigol's.I don't generally see Rigol fans saying siglent is a "useless piece of crap" "or alpha unfinished toy". Generally.I have seen enough posts, videos and articles to know Rigol releases unfinishedtoolsquite often, but they are useful tools nevertheless (with the customers financing the latter parts of development). I have also seen enough to know Siglent puts out excellent tools (at least at the level I can play).I get your points too, I would be very upset if I got an alpha or beta tool for work, but I'm fine for hobby if it costs much less.I'm just not a professional, and I don't think most pros have a ~€400 tool as their main scope.To user @JPortici. I have not called anyone a fanboy.I don't see the problem of a scope being hackable, but maybe that's just me. I have in use A brands (keysight) and B+? (Gwinstek, brymen, and very old Fluke and Keithley). Also had a Picoscope, which I really liked. I actually don't have Rigol or Siglent equipment, and I might get your points early next year.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 08:14:29 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 12, 2023, 06:26:35 amwhat kind of excuse is that? All it takes is few button presses and knob rotations. no need magic, it looks to me you tried to achieve what dave got... dick n balls.. pro can do much better.. for eg. setting mem depth to 1Mpts is deliberate work. if you got dick n balls, its only use intuition to increase mem depth to 10Mpts to get better view. Maybe Fungus is right you only look for its weakness, compare n represent it with best setting of siglent and you call that 20yrs of field TE experience.. i'll say 20yrs experience of using one particular brand only and nothing else.. not even high end one..

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 08:46:16 am
content: I have not apologized.This is a fundamental error in the FFT, which others had also found, read there again.If you still think it's an operator error, then show us how to do it properly there, it's off-topic here.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 09:04:44 am
content: And it all went down the drain, completely.People, the discussion here is about "dick n balls" aparently.Who knew?

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 09:56:29 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 12, 2023, 01:03:47 amlmao, seems like no one wants to read this "pls be friendly" post.If I see one more toxic reply with aggressive words, I will delete this thread.I don't know how things got to this point, it is just a new bargain product that benefits pretty much everybody.I am a DHO804 user and love to see Siglent join this competition.

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:07:01 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 12, 2023, 08:46:16 amIt's obviously a bug. It needs to be reported and fixed by the vendor. No product is bug-free. Much more important than the bug itself is IMO the way in which the vendor deals with bug reports. Are they acknowledged at all? Is the vendor willing to fix bugs? And how long do I need to wait for fixes?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:07:34 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 12, 2023, 08:14:29 amPull your head in Mech as Martin uses high end LeCroys at his work and knows plenty about TE in general.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:35:03 am
content: Quick price conversion at current rates.I certainly didn't expect this. It remains to be seen whether these ratios reach the West or not.Maybe it's a promotional price to directly compete for christmas gifts?The SDS824 HD is priced at DHO1074 BF level, and based on rf-loop posts I assume the lower versions will have some hardware memory differences?I don't think there's anything quite like this. A 4-channel, 2GSa/s, 12 bit, bode-plot capability, 4 MPTs FFT, 4 math channels, arbitrary math, etc. Basically SDS6000 software for around 300 bucks is just nuts.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:40:43 am
content: Quote from: gf on December 12, 2023, 10:07:01 am^^That, exactly that. I've a few Rigol items but I'm mostly ambivalent to the brand. They are tools which work for me, at a price I'm prepared to pay for them, end of. However, "disappointed" is more on target, if I'm really asked and more important to Rigol themselves, I'm now reluctant to purchase anything else from them.Someone here previously said words to the effect that "software shouldn't be released until it is fully specified, 100% correct". Nice idea in theory, and true(er) if you're working on code for life-at-risk applications. However, in today's world, that's not how development is done, not if you ever want to release anything and make some money so that you can continue to develop it further. So long as the code/product gives some value to someone in its current state, relative to its cost to them (direct and indirect) it's good to go. The (massively important) corollary to this is, successful software companies/publishers have an effective feedback loop around that.You engage with your user base and actively solicit and encourage that engagement. You log and track their issues (preferably openly and publicly) and you correct and adapt with regular release cycles. You, within varying margins of error, publish the proposed content of future releases and estimated timescales. You have an effective release management process (not "why is this F/W revision available on one international site but not another?) This is what, imho, is missing from Rigol's approach and which if in place, would remove much of the negative sentiment we're seeing playing out in the above conversations. They've a GitHub repository but where is the bug list? Where is the user forum? Where is the engagement / response to users? Where is the published release cadence? They do nothing of value with it, such a wasted opportunity for a company largely addressing today's hobbyists for which this is development 101.You CAN make money, capture markets and simultaneously satisfy users with alpha/beta release products/software (see Tesla, or Apple iPhone before them, if you're in any doubt) and it's a perfectly valid strategy. But you have to play the game as intended.BTW - Rigol, if you're reading, I've a couple of decades in software product management and I'm available. I'd be happy to show you how this is done.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:52:34 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 12, 2023, 08:46:16 amflat top windowing function admittedly got something wrong. why you think insisting on buggy window is the way to look at FFT? there are other window functions thats not buggy, why in your infinite and maturely wisdom not suggesting those?. btw, i'm talking about resolution or bin size of the FFT, i provided you with reply in that thread with all relevant windowings with "proper" resolution, not dick'n balls resolution. and again linked here, i'm not sure if you can read, or you only want to see what you want to see...Quote from: PELL on December 12, 2023, 09:56:29 amtry it, you cant. we tried on our own threads. and fwiw, i believe this is what is called "discussion" as long as its academic and civil not including personal insult. i have no objection. or course you'll find some "harsh" word meant for joke here and there, you cant get rid of it here in this forum i bet you that... this is dave's forum after all. do you know how he terms things? yeah! dick n balls is one of it! i bet you havent seen enough of his videos. cheers.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:54:50 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 12, 2023, 06:26:21 amHow long does it typically take after that until an international product release? The 1000X HD was (and still is) obviously untypical. Any word from Siglent regarding planned release dates in the Western world, for both the 800 and 1000X HD series?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:56:59 am
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 12, 2023, 10:35:03 amThese differences are now alsoofficiallypublished and 2 and 4 Ch 70/100MHz vs 2 and 4Ch 200MHz versions differences:50M vs 100M Max acquisition memory length when one channel is in use. 50/25/10M vs 100/50/25MUp to max 80kwfm/s vs 120kwfm/s (Sequence mode up to max 500kwfm/s in both sub groups)No other differences.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:59:58 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 12, 2023, 10:56:59 amThanks. But do we know whether these are actual hardware differences or whether they are software-controlled and hackable? Even if they are hackable, we would still have to wait and see whether the low-end models will actually be available outside of China, of course.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:01:31 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 12, 2023, 10:54:50 amCommentarium non faciam.I will not comment.Mi ne komentos.我不会发表评论。

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:07:54 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 12, 2023, 11:01:31 amIf you can't comment on part two of question (any word from Siglent?) for confidentiality reasons, how about a non-binding answer to the first part (how long does it typically take)?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:11:35 am
content: Quote from: gf on December 12, 2023, 10:07:01 amI absolutely agree with you on all you said."Bug" is a colloquial slang for a type of software malfunction.Specifically, it used to be used for certain type of errors in program function that were not caught in standard testing.It used to mean a type of problem that was hard to catch, would only represent itself in specific circumstances and such.For instance, generally well functioning program would only make calculation errors on 28th of February on leap years.. And only in one report, and then only if report was more than 5 pages long.That is what we used to call a bug.When vendor would deliver a program that would, out of the box, have 5 out of 25 reports not working properly, we would call them back and tell them we pay on delivery, and that they did not deliver functional program. We couldn't care less if they promised they will fix it later. That was not bugs, but unfinished software if user can find defects after few hours of work with it.If I'm mistaken in these definitions and am wrong, I apologize for wasting everybody's time. Let me know so I can shut up.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:12:24 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 12, 2023, 11:01:31 amMi komencis tedegi pro ĉi tiu fadeno, ĝis mi rimarkis Esperanton(I was starting to get tired of this thread until I noticed Esperanto)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:18:28 am
content: Quote from: NE666 on December 12, 2023, 10:40:43 amI've been thinking on this for long and my conclusion: I guess Rigol has no incentive for it as they are pretty successful with that strategy and it's on par in terms of success with Siglent's strategy of implementing a more A-brand like approach. It's in their ADN.This is all a balance of expectations. In the end of the day, will all the bugs and bug-solving strategies each use, they (Rigol and Siglent) continue to have/increase their customer base because there are all kinds of people that find their expectations solved by the different set of features/results each test equipment presents (and, as this forum continuously shows, there are few that truly understand the intricacies/quirks of these types of equipments and what is behind what they are seeing on the screen).So, this is all normal and we should all be grateful for the so much different approaches. Are there missing opportunities here? Probably there are. Would there be such competition if both approaches were the same? Probably not.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:19:47 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 12, 2023, 10:52:34 amBecause you should know that Flattop window is most important and is used most of the time, because of amplitude accuracy.Fact that out of the box Flattop window is wrong means that nobody competent in Rigol did not test that function even ONCE.If they did they would catch it on FIRST look (Like Tom did) and aparently fix was 10 minutes.... By the user.Therefore my conclusion is that software was not tested AT ALL. Imagine what horrors lie below the surface....And that is on DHO1000 made a year ago. So nobody tested FFT in a year either...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:22:27 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 12, 2023, 11:18:28 amThank you!That is smartest thing written here on a forum in a long time.Best,

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:43:49 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 12, 2023, 10:54:50 amThe best we have is Tautech's hint/guess/approximate Q1 2024. I think it's expected early next year, so a few weeks from now. But I have no data.I don't think the base model will be easily (or at all) hackable to 200MHz/100MPts/120kWFm/s. They seem to be implementing a very clear-cut market segmentation, and the lower price models would step too much on the 1000X HD for a third of the price.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 12:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 12, 2023, 11:07:54 amToo little data to meaningfully define a typical value.

author: antian
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:25:32 pm
content: Does anyone know if I did purchase this through Taobao and get it shipped to the US, would there be possibly any significant difference to what gets sold in the US?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: antian on December 12, 2023, 07:25:32 pmHardware level? Maybe the wrong plug on the mains cable.Warranty level? A world of difference.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2023, 02:46:16 am
content: Do we need two threads on this new Siglent scope?This ones makes more sense to use:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds800x-hd-12-bit-dsos-coming/