Are there 6 pin USB C sockets with D- D+ lines instead of CC1 and CC2 ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 05:25:22 am
content: Hello.I need an USB C female socket, which will have 6 pins (for ease of soldering). There are thousands of various types available, but all which I was able to find, have VDD VSS and CC1 and CC2 lines - these are used for charging purposes only. I need to transfer data, but sockets with D+ and D- pins usually have 14 or 16 pins and are very hard to solder.So maybe someone seen the USB C socket with 6 pins, but with D+ and D- lines?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 05:49:45 am
content: No. There is a big thread from a couple years back where we tried to find one and could not. For Type-C to work you need to have both CCx and D+/-.There is some weird connector with like 8 pins that has that, but it is next to impossible to find, so I would not bother.Here is the threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/type-c-in-micro-usb-footprint-(female-connectors)/

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 08:40:28 am
content: Well, I do have some 6 pin connectors which have D+ and D- lines, but they're verticalbought maybe 2 years ago in China.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 09:17:23 am
content: There is a good reason they are made in the 16 pin versions.Look at the required pinout and try to draw out the shape of the stamped metal contacts to make the required connections onto 6 pins, then you will see why.You also do need the CC lines for your device to work properly with hosts that have USB-C ports.While these connectors are more difficult to solder than a microUSB, they are still reasonably easy to solder using hot air, only issue is that on some connectors it is impossible to inspect all the pins after soldering.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 12:09:40 pm
content: https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005003639528308.html?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 09:58:31 pm
content: If you are soldering wires onto it, you just get something like this with the PCB already in place:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005488562443.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005769163862.htmlThey are what is used inside type A to C cables sometimes.Quote from: langwadt on September 11, 2023, 12:09:40 pmNo diagram showing what pins are connected to?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 10:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 11, 2023, 09:58:31 pmThere is a drawing in the post I linked. But yes, those things are not well documented and not readily available. I would avoid them.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 10:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 11, 2023, 10:01:18 pmYes, that's a problem. I can find what I want (I just need a charging socket) in aliexpress but I can't specify that for a BoM, they won't be there next week. Where can I find a reliable stockist with specs, drawings and leadtimes ? Places like Digikey and TE Connectivity have only a very limited choice of mounting options.And they're priced at $2-$3 each instead of $0.08. I get that there might be a quality difference but $30 on the retail price is just not reasonable.,What I need is the type that I think's made for encapsulating in plastic - no side tabs, and pins out the back so the inlet can be placed in a thick panel. eghttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004218910074.html

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 10:17:39 pm
content: Quote from: artag on September 11, 2023, 10:06:29 pmSource via alibaba.LCSC has similar ones as wellhttps://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/USB-Connectors_SHOU-HAN-TYPE-C-6P-LCH10-0_C5187470.htmlWhy are side tabs not an option?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 10:20:37 pm
content: Quote from: artag on September 11, 2023, 10:06:29 pmclose enough?https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/GCT/USB4140-GF-0230-C?qs=Li%252BoUPsLEnsTahb5O%2FBErw%3D%3D

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 10:20:57 pm
content: LCSC is a reliable and consistent supplier. Things still change over time, so you may eventually have to find a replacement. But LCSC would have all sorts of mounting options at actually reasonable prices.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 10:47:11 pm
content: Thanks, I'd looked on LCSC but hadn't found those. The GCT one I had found but it's really a vertical-mount so the pcb goes at rightangles which doesn't suit retaining it so well in my application.Side tabs aren't an option because it needs to thread into a deep hole in a wooden base. I can cut a slot with rounded ends but not have a narrow opening and a wide mounting end. Normally I'd prefer them - I distrust purely surface mounting external connectors having seen too many broken phone charging sockets but in this case I want a parallel-sided piece with a pcb transition to wiring that can be pushed into the hole and anchored with a screw.Annoyingly I can find this ready-made very easily - except they have the wrong CC connections (the common B008 pcb has only one resistor, which as I understand it is completely useless) and no retaining mechanism except accurate mouldings or glue.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 10:53:22 pm
content: The male ones with a PCB will only have one CC because cable only has one CC wire. This is up to the spec. Only the board (female) size needs 2 CCx lines, which guarantees that the one in the cable will be connected to one of them no matter the orientation.I looked at what B008 is. Yes, this is technically wrong. You need to have 2 separate resistors. It would work with passive cables, but may fail with e-marekd cables.The resistor appears to be not populated at all by default. This is fine for power-only applications. It would work without the resistors if there is USB-A connector on the other side. But if it is USB-C, then there may be issues with smart hosts that only supply power when the device is connected.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 11:05:14 pm
content: OK, I guess it makes sense if B008 is intended as an encapsulated female connector. But it seems to be marketed as a female inlet connector with pads for one resistor. It's just about possible to hack it to take two but not a sensible option!I appreciate the guidance. I've got my head around some of USB C but am pretty confused as to why some of the products exist. I did indeed find that I could use B008 to accept power from a USB-A to -C cable but not with a proper PD connection.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 04:17:12 am
content: As said above, I do have some vertical Type C connectors which have DP and DM lines instead of CC1 CC2.The issue is that I need a "normal" socket.I do use some 16P TH typeC sockets, but JLCPCB, after they "upgraded" their production lines year a so, gives me warning that they can't guarantee that all holes will be solder-free (previously, same design was just fine), so when PCB arrives, some of these holes are filled with solder and I'm having hard time cleaning it out.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2023, 05:47:15 am
content: Then order the PCB with some other finish than HASL.As for cleaning out the holes, you might want a PCB preheater to get the whole board hot, so that it it easier to melt the solder deep in the hole. A hot air station can probably do that too. But yeah id imagine it is not fun with holes this small.Unfortunately all this complication is due to the reversible nature of the USB-C. None of the USB 2.0 spec is designed to be reversible, so they have no other choice but to duplicate the whole connector on the reverse side, and this inevitably means a lot of criss crossing connections. Hence making it difficult to make these crossing connections internally when each contact+pin has to be a single piece of stamped metal.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 01:22:52 pm
content: I ordered these 8 pin sockets, mentioned above.They are still very hard to solder, because two set of pins have very close spacing.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 06:25:21 am
content: If anyone still wants to use them, here's a datasheet from the manufacturer.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 08:22:48 am
content: To me that datasheet looks like it connects the D+ and D- pins only on one side of the connector.If this is true then USB data transfer will stop working if you plug the cable in rotated around half a turn.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 07:02:57 pm
content: I will test tomorrow and let you know. But these pins are interconnected in cable anyways, so no big importance, imo...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 07:54:20 pm
content: No, they are not interconnected in the cable. Cable only has one D+/D- wire. This is why you need to have that connection in the connector.I would assume that there is internal connection, otherwise this connector is just junk. Why even make it?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 11:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 11, 2023, 07:54:20 pmThat is a good point. This site shows an image where they are left floating on the PCB:https://www.pshinecable.com/article/usb-c-cable-wiring-diagram.htmlThat is probably why it is not made, it is too expensive to internally connect the D+'s together and have one pin coming out. Even the 6 pin ones, they just have two VBUS pins coming out and you short those together.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 11:52:01 pm
content: Internal connections would be tricky indeed. But not bringing out all the pins makes no sense at all.In your link, the first picture of the USB-C female connector on a cable is not allowed by the standardFemale connectors can be only board mounted.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 05:23:05 am
content: Sure?never seen USB-C extension cables?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 05:27:04 am
content: I've seen them, of course. They are not allowed by the standard. Obviously people in China don't care. But as a side effect, those cables only work in one orientation, and you are instructed to flip the connector if it does not work.There are also USB-A to USB-A cables. And that abomination does not even make sense, yet they exists.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 05:51:51 am
content: Is this what you are looking for?https://www.amazon.com/Type-C-Breakout-Serial-Connector-Converter/dp/B09KC1SMGD/ref=asc_df_B09KC1SMGD/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=563688069599&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13978528968852296121&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9027887&hvtargid=pla-1666317339592&psc=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwj5mpBhDJARIsAOVjBdq6lk88Yk1UTyxABwcaKNthjM9S8eGiZYJIDDpAqm2FeCjjXanut-8aAklJEALw_wcBIt has both the CCs and the Ds.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 06:55:10 am
content: That amazon one indeed looks like it brings out both sides on the D+ and D- line and then connects them together on the PCB.Main point is that 6 pin USB-C sockets with working D+ D- lines do not exist because they would be way too difficult to manufacture. It is easier to make the connections on the PCB.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 01:08:14 pm
content: I have 3 different USB C extenders. Tested all 3 of them, none of them requires any orientation changeAmazon link is good, but I need socket separately, to be able to incorporate it into my devices.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 03:59:46 pm
content: They must be doing active detection and switching in the cable. There is no way to build a passive extender. But that active detection may not work with all hosts and devices.It is up to you what cables you use, this does not change the fact that none of the USB-C extenders are properly certified, so use at your own risk.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 05:14:11 am
content: You can make a USB-C male to USB-C female extender cable work both sides just fine if the duplicated D+ and D- pins are connected together on the female side.Where you might run into problems is the extra high speed pairs on the outside, for those the devices have to detect the orientation and swap them around using a mux chip. So the extender cable would need to have such a mux inside it, pretty sure the chinese don't go to that sort of effort to make that forbidden out of spec cable work for USB3/HDMI..etcAlso the high current 5A cables are supposed to have a marker chip inside to identify it as a high current capable cable, there is no way to have such a marker in a extra extender cable. Worse even, plugging in a cable with a high current marker chip will 'upgrade' the extension cable to being high current regardless if it is a high current cable or not.When the spec specifically forbids doing something, there is usually a good reason it does so.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 05:32:11 am
content: You would run into issues with the CC wire. So, even for USB2-only mode, you would have to rely on host not needing it. Some hosts don't care, others use them to supply power.If you just do one, then some combinations of flips will result in a disconnected CC. If you also short it on the female side, emarked cables will not work when plugged into such extension cable.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 12:50:47 pm
content: I don't understand, why question with extenders caught that much attention. I think, we're calling an "extender" different things?Ones that I have are simply extenders - they have male sockets at one end and female sockets at the another end.Number of wires in them correspond to number of contacts, so everything works fine, even 5A cables (tested right now). So I really don't understand, what all that fuss is about

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:38:24 am
content: Well, I bought these connectors, even created gerber files (can share if anyone needs) and even put it onto actual PCB.here are the observations:1. Even if there are only 8 pins, their spacing is still very tight - feels like that this is 16 pin connectors, but 8 pins just not installed. So same issues with hand soldering, as with 16 pin ones.2. CC1/CC2 lines work in any direction of Type C cable inserted.3. D+/D- lines work only in one position of Type C cable.