R&S RTM1054 vs Rigol MSO4014 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: houly
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 01:00:35 pm
content: Hello all,I'm looking for a scope and wondering if Rigol MSO4014 (with hack to have 500MHz bandwith - if it's still possible - and decoding options) is a good choice... I have the opportunity to buy a R&S 1054 (4ch - 500MHz - 5GS/s) but I also interested in logic analyzer function of the Rigol. I tried to compare the characteristics of both and the Rigol seems to be the best : much memory, more function (I mean digital analyzer)...but I suppose that the quality of the parts and acquisition chain is very important and I don't know which is the best and the signal processing too.Another thing that I read on the forum, the Rigol seems to have a lot of bugs, does the R&S is bugged too ?If I take the R&S, it mean that I have to add an external analyzer like Acute product, but the scope don't seem to have a trigger input in order to synchronize the Acute analyzer with analog measurement of the scope. This mean that I have to trig with one of the 4 inputs...What do you think of these scopes ?regards

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 01:04:54 pm
content: Logic analyzers built into a scope are often not worth the money they cost.On a Rigol they are not very useful.I had one and now have the Agilent MSOX3000 series. The latter is much much better than the LA in th Rigol and can be helpful sometimes - but even then I am still often using my USB logic analyzer because it is much easier to search, scroll and zoom on a PC than on a scope.If I were you, I would go an purchase the R&S and a separate logic analyzer (e.g. the Intronix Logicport).

author: houly
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2015, 05:02:29 pm
content: Hello Pinkus,Thanks a lot for your reply.Well for the DA, you're probably right, it's more convenient to use it with a PC, but I don't know if LA on USB is more accurate than a scope.I also saw that decoding doesn't mean necessary triggering, I mean that it's very interesting to trig on an event (on a bus for example) and some USB DA are capable to do it, they only propose decoding.I don't know if a good scope like yours with DA is equivalent to USB solution...

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2015, 09:27:19 pm
content: Quote from: houly on October 16, 2015, 01:00:35 pmWhat? Of course the scope has an external trigger input. I don't know any R&S scope that doesn't.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 12:07:15 am
content: There is probably a Trigger input on thebackpanel of RTM1054. Read the user manual.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 02:08:57 am
content: Most USB LAs have no trigger out capability, so if you want to time correlate your analog to your digital you pretty much need a MSO. The LA on the MSO4014 uses the same hardware that is in the MSO2000A, so if you only need 2 analog channels you can get by with a MSO2072A, these can be hacked to 300 MHz and right now are selling at tequipment.net for $929 with a special discount code. Also the MSO4014 is on sale at tequiptment.net for $2594, and yes they can still be hacked to 500 MHz.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 02:40:46 am
content: Quote from: Pinkus on October 16, 2015, 01:04:54 pmIt depends what you want to do. If you need to time correlate your analog channels with digitally triggered events there are not many ways to do that without an MSO. The Rigol scopes do decoding in software, whereas the Keysights do it in hardware... the Keysights also cost four times as much as the equivalently hacked Rigol. For instance, the MSO4014 can be had for $2594, whereas the Keysight MSOX3054T is $12700.That said, purportedly the LogicPort can be configured at the factory with a trigger out capability for $15 extra if you ask for it in the special instructions form when you order it. However, I'm not sure how this is even possible on a USB 2.0 LA since they don't do analysis is real time.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 10:33:07 am
content: Quote from: nbritton on October 20, 2015, 02:40:46 amYou can even do it by yourself easily - it is just adding one wire. However: indeed the Logicport can not trigger on specific serial data as (as you you say) the software on the PC is doing the decoding after the data has been recorded. You can set two triggers and you can combine them with rules (e.g. trigger only if clock line was high the 42nd time AND when if CS is low). Or trigger if the data bus (no matter if 8 / 16 / 24 / 32 bit)) is showing the value xyz.But you can't trigger on a data package sent to I2C address h42. For individual / parallel data the Logicport is almost perfect. For serial data is is better to have a real time decoding such as in the MSOX3000 series.Quote from: nbritton on October 20, 2015, 02:40:46 amWell, you are comparing a 100 Mhz with a 500 Mhz scope. Some might go an purchase a used DSOX3014 and hack it to a MSOX3024 with all options (or a DSOX3034A can be hacked to a MSOX3054a). A used DSOX3014a in mint condition can be found unter $3000, with some luck even less.But if 'Houly' want to purchase a new device you are right: then the Rigol is the best bang for the buck.

author: Isaac000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 11:35:04 pm
content: Quote from: houly on October 16, 2015, 01:00:35 pmI'm assuming then that the cost is roughly the same on both items? I would be a bit surprised ... the R&S should be significantly more expensive when new.I would take the R&S hands-down over the Rigol. Forget about the logic analyzer function, it won't beat a stand-alone. If you need it, as someone said, just grab an inexpensive USB logic analyzer. If you need a really high-end logic analyzer, that's not what you're getting with the Rigol anyways.You can make your own choice. Where are you buying it from? Usually distributor or manufacturer are happy to loan out a model for me to try before I buy.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 05:26:05 am
content: Quote from: Isaac000 on October 21, 2015, 11:35:04 pmYes, when it was new, but that was some time ago.Just a word of warning, this is the R&S RTM 1000, not the RTM 2000. The RTM 1000 was R&S first lower mid-range scope (came out in 2010) which has been replaced by the RTM 2000 not too long after, and the RTM 1000 hasn't been available as new for some time now.RTM 1000 brochure:http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTM_bro_en.pdfRTM 1000 datasheet:http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTM_dat-sw_en.pdfThe RTM 1054 is a good scope, with good specs (i.e. 64k FFT, XGA screen, optional serial decode, 4M/8M sample memory) all around, however its waveform update rate is abysmally low with a specified maximum of only 12500 waveforms/s. That doesn't make it a bad scope (until recently I had scopes that were similarly slow, although those were over 12 years old) but for a scope from 2010 that's pretty poor, and depending on what you want to do with it that very low waveform rate might be a problem.This should also be taken into consideration when it comes to price.QuoteI would in a heartbeat, too, despite the low waveform rate, simply because (aside from MSO functionality and waveform rate) the RTM 1054 is a much better scope, with better triggers, better math and measurements, a better display, much better FFT (the Rigol only does a measly 4k points or so, which is borderline useless) and without all the firmware bugs the Rigol scopes are suffering from.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 07:51:51 am
content: Is 12k really abysmal? I'd say 1k is low but 12k is in the I don't really care range. Unless you really need the update rate...try to identify that first.Edit: well I guess compared to even the older mega zoom oscilloscopes it really is slow.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 11:06:26 am
content: Quote from: Neganur on October 22, 2015, 07:51:51 amFor a lower mid-range scope as of 2010, yes, 12k wfms/s is abysmally low.This aside its a great scope.

author: houly
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 05:44:18 pm
content: Hello all,I have read carefully all your comments and I déffynitly eliminate the Rigol scope. I didn't realized that the R&S is so slow ! so I'm considering a new one with a lower bandwidth, the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3024.What do you think about this scope ?thanks again for your help

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 06:02:18 pm
content: Quote from: houly on October 22, 2015, 05:44:18 pmI had one for a day and I think at the moment it's probably the best offering in that price range (I've written a bit about it in other threads in the past). LeCroy is really pushing these scopes into the market, and it comes with a few features (WaveScan, Lab Notebook) that were previously only available in their upper mid-range and high-end scopes.If you're in Europe then LeCroy currently does a promo where all software options including the integrated AWG are included for free:http://teledynelecroy.com/europe/promotions/promotions.aspxHaving said that, if you need serial decode for certain less common protocols (i.e. MIL-1553, I2S Audio) then you'd be better off with a Keysight DSOX3024T as the WS3000 doesn't support them (yet), although that obviously comes at a noticeably higher price. As scope functionality is concerned i'd still take the WaveSurfer 3024 over the DSOX3024T any day, though.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 06:17:16 pm
content: It has a limited function generator with no modulation feature, but this is a minor disadvantage.http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wavesurfer-3000-om.pdf

author: houly
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 06:28:24 pm
content: Hello Wuerstchenhund,thanks a lot for your fast reply and your link to Lecroy promotion, I have just send a mail to Lecroy...I used for three years a DSOX3000 scope and I think it's a very good scope but pricer that the Lecroy model.I don't need 1553... so Lecroy seems to be the best candidatethanks again.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 06:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on October 22, 2015, 06:17:16 pmIt's no longer just a simple function generator:http://teledynelecroy.com/pressreleases/document.aspx?news_id=1873&capid=107&mid=554Arbitrary Waveform GenerationGenerating arbitrary waveforms is critical for complete design debug and validation. With new capabilities in the built-in WaveSource function generator, arbitrary waveforms can be generated by loading .csv files saved from an oscilloscope or offline waveform creation software. These arbitrary waveforms can then be controlled, manipulated, and output directly from the WaveSurfer for use in closed loop circuit analysis....The arbitrary waveform capabilities of the WaveSource are included with the function generator option and available to existing WaveSurfer 3000 customers with the WaveSource option through a free software update.There's still no direct modulation feature, but at least one could create a modulated waveform via the AWG functionality.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 06:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: houly on October 22, 2015, 06:28:24 pmThe DSOX3000 scopes are good but way overpriced in my opinion (especially the higher bandwidth models).BTW, you could ask LeCroy if they have a demo scope they might want to sell, which could mean a lower price for a WS3024 or a higher bandwidth model for the same price. And don't forget to ask for discountsPlease keep us updated!

author: houly
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 06:40:04 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 22, 2015, 06:35:03 pmOf course I do !

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 10:18:46 pm
content: LeCroy might as well be on a different planet if you're in the U.S. Unless you're a volume customer they won't return with a quote of less than MSRP; when I asked for a quote on the WS3054 they quoted me MSRP and a free FG. The message said they'd also ask a local distributor to contact me, which never happened so I assume they have no channel presence in California or even the west coast. Yeah, because we don't do any design work and have no engineering and product culture around here.With Keysight however the resellers will practically trip over each other for business, and you can get some excellent deals. Nobody in their right mind pays MSRP for this stuff!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 05:12:50 am
content: Quote from: bson on October 22, 2015, 10:18:46 pmAgreed. But idon't forget that what you're offered basically depends on the sales droid you're dealing with. Sometimes you get one that just had a bad day, or you get a bad one that has already completely switched off. I had this with every T&M vendor on one occasion or another, even Keysight.It usually helps to try again (i.e. give them a call, most of the time you'll end up with a different sales guy) and being blunt, i.e. telling them that you want to buy a scope, that you're considering all major brands 9also mention Keysight!), and that you asked for a offer from one of your colleagues and only got MSRP. Tell them that no-one would pay MSRP for a scope in this class, and ask if they can make you a better offer to match what you got from Keysight (don't give them specifics about what Keysight offered them, instead give them a figure that would be a bit lower than what's acceptable to you!) and make sure to let them know that you certainly won't bother with anything close to MSRP when everyone else can offer much better prices.Then the ball is in their court, and unless you got a similar lazy sales droid I'm sure you'll get a better offer. Unfortunately sometimes a bit of pressure is required to get what you want.However, the WS3054 is really a lot cheaper than Keysight's counterpart (DSO-X3054T), there's more than $4k difference between the WS3054 ($6950 at Tequipment) and the $11k even Tequipment wants for the DSOX3054T. Keysight gives large discounts but I doubt they can match the price of a WS3054 (heck, even the Wavesurfer 10 1GHz scope is cheaper than the 500MHz DSOX3kT). And you can be sure that LeCroy's sales droids know that.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 02:42:22 am
content: To be frank it was also with the MSO probe and EMB decoders. But yeah, you're right; if I was doing more than getting a ballpark sense of pricing I'd hunt them down for a quote and work it. I'm not so lazy I can't do a little legwork to save potentially several thousand dollars!Just kinda underwhelming that you have to hunt them down to get to the starting line... heck, they quoted me MSRP even for the software (other than the FG).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 03:19:53 pm
content: Quote from: bson on October 24, 2015, 02:42:22 amTrue, but most sales droids (independent on the type of business) won't offer any discounts unless they feel its necessary to close a deal, and frankly, I think it's understandable. Also, if they immediately offer some discounts then this could transpire into a message that the MSRP was overblown in the first place (well, it is, but it would be much more obvious). It's better if the customer has to "fight" (ask) for it, so they can "agree under pain", so they can save face and the customer actually feels good because he believes that he was able to squeeze the price even more.Win-win

author: houly
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2015, 09:16:24 pm
content: Hello all,I finally have an offer from Lecroy :WS3024 for 3500 euros (including tax) with decoding options.I don't reply yet to their proposition, what do you think ?I hesitate and wondering if the bandwidth is sufficient...

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2015, 09:32:10 pm
content: Quote from: nbritton on October 20, 2015, 02:08:57 amIntronix LogicPort can be easily modded to include a Trigger OutputThis is not the same as having a MSO that can potentially align digital and analog signals with relative ease and precision and display both on the same screen at the same time..... but to get a MSO that can do what a USB LA can do you will likely be spending a fair amount.Depends on the use case requirements and budget....I am on the lookout for a MSO that can meet or exceed the LA functionality of the Intronix LogicPort..... not sure what the lowest price MSO is that can match the LogicPort on the LA side..... if anyone knows please say.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2015, 09:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: houly on November 07, 2015, 09:16:24 pmThat includes digital probes and what decoders? Thanks

author: houly
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2015, 10:01:31 pm
content: no just decoding/triggering options (I2C, SPI, UART, RS232, CAN, LIN), Wave generator.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 10:13:18 am
content: Quote from: houly on November 07, 2015, 09:16:24 pmSounds like a good offer for a scope with the serial decode/trigger options and the AWG.If you want MSO then ask them to make you an offer for that as well.QuoteWell, that's something only your can decide. But don't forget that these scopes are bandwidth-upgradeable so you can go higher if required later.