Anyone worked with fluorescent lights before? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: LoveLaika
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2022, 07:17:49 pm
content: As the title says, anyone worked with fluorescent lights before? Some of the ones at my church need repair, and we're not sure how. We were thinking of replacing the ballast (from magnetic to electric), but how do we do so, and what specs do we look for?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2022, 07:29:46 pm
content: Sure, lots of times, you repair them like anything else, they are very simple. First thing to check is the tube, put in a known good set of tubes and see if it works. If it doesn't then check the sockets for damage and look for loose wires. If that all looks good then the fault is probably the ballast. The ballast type has to be matched to the tubes, the most common are 4 foot F32T8 (1" diameter) and F40T12 (1.5" diameter) with bipin ends. The next most common is the 8' F96T12 with single pin ends. Each of these types uses a specific ballast that will list the compatible lamp type on it.There are also LED tubes, some of which are designed to work with the original ballast and others you remove the ballast and wire the sockets directly. If you need to replace the ballasts anyway I would suggest the latter.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2022, 08:20:55 pm
content: First, try known good tubes and known good starter(s) together, not either on their own. Most magnetic ballast fluorescent faults are bad tubes or starters, or deteriorated plastic parts resulting in connection faults. The magnetic ballasts themselves are highly reliable, and shouldn't need changing unless you need the enhanced features a high-end electronic ballast can offer, or show any signs of being cooked by heat buildup due to poor ventilation or long term operation with a fault. I'd save any discarded magnetic ballasts in good condition, as its very hard to beat magnetic ballast fluorescents for low EMI electronics lab lighting.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2022, 08:29:05 pm
content: Magnetic ballasts do fail IME. Not as often as lamps and starters. But I would not call it rare. Electronic ballasts often are unreliable since use crappy or underrated parts.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2022, 09:17:57 pm
content: Well my experience with them is that they far outlast most electronic ballasts. I've had some in service for around 30 years, and as long as I can still get tubes and starters for them, they'll probably outlast me! Here, in a country with sensible nom. 230V RMS mains, they are just an iron core choke so there is very little to fail unless overheating compromises the insulation. In 'Westpondia' with their domestic 120V AC supply, its common in domestic fittings for the magnetic ballast for longer tubes to be a lossy autotransformer to boost the voltage so the tube can strike reliably, so there can be more to go wrong. Industrial/commercial fluorescent fittings designed for 240V or 208V (wild leg) feed are going to be more like those used in 230V countries.Samuel M. Goldwasser (of Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ fame)'s F-Lamp FAQ for Fluorescent Lamps, Ballasts, and Fixtures,Principles of Operation, Circuits, Troubleshooting, Repairhttps://www.repairfaq.org/sam/flamp.htmshould answer any remaining questions LL has.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2022, 09:19:34 pm
content: Pay close attention to the sockets. They are often deteriorated and falling apart.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2022, 09:22:50 pm
content: I think such repair must consider various subjects. If you replace part of the ballasts or tubes then the color or light output might not match. Some electronic ballasts for fluorescents are dumb but some are really sophisticated. PFC, cold start/hot start versions, temperature compensation, some elegantly switch off when won't be able to ignite after N retries but some just never surrender, which might not be what you want in a church. Some ballasts can restart just after lamp replacement while other require on/off/on cycle (ignite only at power up) so this is a matter of convenience during servicing. There are ballasts that drive two lamps and you have to have two lamps operational, while other can work ok with only one lamp operational. Then, there are dimmable and non-dimmable versions. Also, magnetic ballasts work at 50Hz/60Hz so the distance between lamp and ballast is irrelevant. Electronic ballasts work at 50kHz and this wiring distance is constrained (1-2m) so depends on the luminary design.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2022, 09:28:40 pm
content: fluorescent tube age sign is blacked tube end where filament is. and purple color ..open filamentworn bi-metal starter (is available electronic option as well)LED and electronic ballasts are unreliable, newer know what you getDubai LED lamps seem good but not for every mortal

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 02:04:06 am
content: The move away from mercury-using fluorescent lamps led to lower efficiency and shorter lifetimes, fluorescent lamps are no longer popular. The tubes simply do not last like they used to."After more than 50 years of research and development and different attempts to replace mercury by less toxic substances, the common physical and chemical understanding of all experts is that the most efficient system for the discharge and the subsequent UV conversion is based on mercury."OsramI would compare the cost of replacement ballasts and tubes with changing to LED tubes. I'm not sure if the costs have come down, including the need for no ballast.Testing the old magnetic ballasts, you can use an ohmmeter, or look for tar, or they will be warm. Many four lamp ones are tricky, if one tube fails I've seen them work only in pairs.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 02:24:56 am
content: Quote from: Grandchuck on May 08, 2022, 09:19:34 pmYes, they are affected by the small but constant amout of ultra violet exposure during use.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 03:17:49 am
content: Honestly I wouldn't repair any Fluorescent Lamp installation these days. Instead but LED fixtures and do a complete replacement. By the time you completely repair a fluorescent fixture you will be half way to the cost of an LED solution. An LED solution will last longer and you don't get the same sort of degradation that you do with fluorescent solutions.Now depending upon how you current installation is designed this could be easy swaps or a more involved update. Now being a church costs will be an issue, so take an incremental approach and do the fixtures at the front first and work your way back to the entrance. Even if you do just a couple at a time you will soon resolve the lighting issue and end up saving the church money.Now as to the question of how to do so, I really don't think I (or anyone else for that matter) can teach somebody how to do proper code complaint electrical wiring over a forum like this. A sizeable church ought to have somebody that has the background or can take the time to learn the skills. If there is a local tech school offering night classes in home wiring or light industrial/commercial, take the course.YOUreally want the work done right in a public building, having the building burn down while everybody is inside is not a good way to get to heaven.Quote from: LoveLaika on May 08, 2022, 07:17:49 pmAs stated above I wouldn't bother. Fluorescent was never a good technology in my opinion. Beyond that if you have to ask these questions you really shouldn't be working on AC systems until you or somebody else, get a little training. It really isn't difficult to grasp the technology involved and frankly you will have much higher confidence with home repair.Churches and such have a big problem with trying to do stuff on the cheap with unqualified personnel. At times this can even mean the collapsed of mechanical structures and significantly injured people. For example:https://newstalkkgvo.com/dozens-injured-in-glacier-church-camp-deck-collapse-state-headlines/Honestly this is just one example, you can spend more time looking into how various churches have suffered over the years due to cutting corners or ignoring engineering directives. The electrical systems in churches are often maintained in the same way and frankly it can be scary.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 04:07:54 am
content: For those in other parts of the world it's worth mentioning that in the USA and other 120V regions lamps over 2' long almost universally have "rapid start" autotransformer ballasts that don't have starters. Starters have not been common since the early 1970s and before except for small tubes that can operate off a choke ballast.I would argue that in many situations it makes a lot of sense to retrofit existing fixtures than it does to replace them. This is especially true of they are something more interesting than the plain strip with exposed tubes, a good quality nice looking fixture is expensive and even for basic stuff it can be a lot easier to just fix what's there. A new ballast is not all that expensive and takes only a few minutes to install. Why throw out a perfectly good fixture even if the savings were only a few percent? The whole "just throw it away and buy a new one" thing drives me nuts.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 05:18:09 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 09, 2022, 02:24:56 amtube glass block most of the UV. quartz pass most of the UVthere is plastics that dont degrade in UV or heat like in car...

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 09:44:32 am
content: If all you need are replacing the tubes, they can still be had from places like Lowes and Home Depot.For any thing more and this for a church, have a professional electrician do the work.If for no other reason,fire insurance!!!

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 10:39:05 am
content: Not to drive you nuts but I've gone both ways. In fact I've updated old fluorescent fixtures with across the line LED "tubes" that fit old fixtures. I've also stripped out old fixtures and installed LED panels and fixtures. When I can I prefer to go the route of new LED fixtures or panels.Why? Well one reason is that many Fluorescent fixtures are cheap and flimsy. Another reason is to address the lighting pattern which might have been less than optimal with Fluorescent installations (that isn't a bulb or fixture problem). In some cases the job will actually go faster with modern fixtures.On the flip side the 'across the line' LED tubes I've used have been great upgrades to old Fluorescent fixtures. The installation however can be time consuming especially if you remove the ballast for proper disposal. You also run into the need to do fixture repairs including replacement of the sockets. On some fixtures just replacing the sockets can end up consuming a lot of time. So I'm not dismissing the potential of such upgrades, the original poster might consider it but I really think he should get professional help and advice. I don't know what sort of installation this church has but I'd lean strongly towards complete fixture replacement in most cases.Quote from: james_s on May 09, 2022, 04:07:54 amA good LED fixture should save them substantially when it comes to electricity and maintenance. Not to mention LED lighting last much longer than Fluorescent tubes which never seem to meet their expected run times.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 10:50:05 am
content: Quote from: MarkF on May 09, 2022, 09:44:32 amFire insurance if for after the fact. In this case a professional may very well save lives, by doing the job properly. I have nothing against somebody getting the proper training and doing the job. I just don't see a way to do such, via the forum, with any confidence. For this type of simple electrical work, it would be pretty easy for somebody in the congregation to get the proper training.As I've mentioned in other posts, churches can be scary as there is often a lot of corner cutting and being hopeful. Yes I know money is an issue but sometimes you need to do things right.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 12:23:46 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on May 09, 2022, 10:50:05 amMy point being that if it is determined that the lights were NOT properly installed, the insurance WILL NOT pay.Not evening considering liability against injury or death.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 06:04:08 pm
content: High vaulted ceilings are terrible for servicing fluorescent lights. OP you might have think about it, might be why the work has been pushed back.I've done it on a ladder and a lift, would not use a ladder ever again. Changing out a magnetic ballast you have to cut and rewire ~10 wires and looking up is a pain in the neck.Check with OHSA but on a scissors lift you need fall prevention, I know it's money to rent a lift but safety is first.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 05:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on May 09, 2022, 10:39:05 amThat really varies. The fluorescent lights in my garage and laundry room were installed shortly after I bought my house 18 years ago and they are still going on the original lamps and (electronic) ballasts. My kitchen light I installed LED tubes when one of the fluorescent tubes failed, that one has an instant start ballast that is much harder on lamps. I've replaced a few LED fixtures for people that had failed in a far shorter period. Bottom line is that both fluorescent and LED lights *can* last decades if they are good quality. Unfortunately there is a lot of crap out there of both types and many people buy the cheapest stuff they can get. I try to find high quality commercial/industrial stuff which at least used to be easy to do on ebay. Good stuff lasts.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 05:03:25 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on May 09, 2022, 10:50:05 amIt's not rocket science, I was installing light fixtures by the time I was 8 years old, I had my uncle (professional electrician) to inspect my work but I don't recall him ever making me redo anything. There are lots of books that show how to do this stuff and now days the information is even easier to find.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 08:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 10, 2022, 05:03:25 pmYes. And I did some wiring in my church when I was in high school (nothing major, just added an outlet). Several months later, my church burnt to the ground. Fortunately, the fire started at the other end of the building and had nothing to do with what I did. An exposed incandescent light in a wall to backlight an unused stained glass window. Someone forgot to turn it off after service and the dry timbers caught fire. That was in the 70's and had been that way for years.Believe me, you DO NOT want to be in that position if anything happens no matter how simple it is to do!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2022, 08:47:08 pm
content: Quote from: MarkF on May 10, 2022, 08:01:57 pmI tend to throw caution to the wind in that sense, life is full of risks, I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow doing nothing more than crossing the street. I've made it into my 40s without ever being sued, it's possible something will happen some day but I'm not going to refuse to live my life over it. Sometimes stuff happens, but I'm pretty confident that if a fire occurs it will not be due to anything I did.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 04:38:54 pm
content: I don't have to work with them any more as when I worked with them I got dizzy because of looking up too long. They are simple but really a pain in the neck.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 07:49:58 pm
content: In the current environment with runaway inflation and shortages, fixing existing stuff makes more and more sense. Not to mention, it is better for the environment!Older fixtures (and things in general) are often (but not always) better quality than modern equivalents (they didn't have CAD back in the day, to optimize how little metal to use - so they used more than enough! And some companies even had the basic philosophy that they are there to produce a quality product as a way to maximize shareholder returns, rather than nickel-and-diming the customers to death! But I digress...).

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2022, 07:35:39 pm
content: If you're going to replace the ballast, my advice is to invest that money in LED panels.They're cheap enough, 4000K temperature gives great color spectrum, I avoid 6400K (too blu-ish) or 2700-3000K (Too warm).Did that on my last job, those lights gave headaches to everyone for years, my eyes were always itching at the end of the working day and the lazy boss was always saying "Sure, this week I'll change them".After months of useless waiting, I decided I had enough, called him, "I'm taking $200 and replacing all lights in the shop, there's a good offer of $15 30W panels". He accepted and that was all.Swapping was plain easy. Lighting became a lot better, and all panels were still working 5 years later.I can't understand people saying fluorescent lighting is a lot better than leds.They last longer and are insensitive to power spikes, but that's all of their benefits: They consume way more power, they're bulky, the ballast also wastes a lot of energy in heat, they're flickery...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2022, 10:54:49 pm
content: I don't see anyone saying fluorescent lighting is a lot better than LEDs. They're saying that there are good LEDs and there are junk LEDs, there are good fluorescent lights and there are junk fluorescent lights. Context matters here, there are many types of fluorescent fixtures, some are just plain strips, others are very well made and nice looking light fixtures that are part of the decor. I wouldn't hesitate to replace some cheapo strips but if I had say some vintage art deco or nice heavy duty 1950s industrial fluorescent fixtures I would definitely repair them.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 12:37:03 am
content: I wasn't arguing against anyone in this thread, just something I see pretty frequently, people sticking with old tecnologies no matter what.I agree, there're cheap leds out there barely more efficient than 1900s bulbs with terrible color spectrum, but was something more of the early days, it's been getting better and better even for the low-end parts.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 04:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on May 13, 2022, 07:35:39 pmAnd low EMI (with magnetic ballast). Credit where credit is due!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 05:23:56 pm
content: Also a fluorescent tube inherently has a large area emitting light, so provides diffuse locally even illumination, with minimal shadowing. LED arrays without good diffusers at short to medium range tend to produces spots of concentrated illumination and if the scene being illuminated has significant depth, highly distracting overlapping hard shadows as each LED die is close to being a point source. You have to go a long way up-market to get LED lighting that is as comfortable to work under for any detailed task as even a cheap but well maintained fluorescent.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 06:18:59 pm
content: If your regularly working with florry tubes,or any other type of discharge lighting ,i highly recommend a discharge lamp tester.Might look like gimmick,but the amount of time and money saved soon repays itself