OT: KosherSwitch - Control Electricity on Shabbat! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: phamuc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 08:09:22 pm
content: What some creative engineering and inbreeding will produce.https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/kosherswitch-control-electricity-on-shabbat#homeHey Dave, if you convert to Judaism, you would be forced to take one day a week off.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 08:54:35 pm
content: Can someone explain to me why normal switches aren't "kosher"? I thought kosher just referred to food? <- Obviously ignorant of this religion's traditions/(ridiculous) rules.Ok, just googled their rules. I'm sorry. I'm normally tolerant of religions, but this IS ridiculous.One rule is this "You are not allowed to extinguish a fire, even if it means great property damage will result."

author: kolonelkadat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on April 16, 2015, 08:54:35 pmbecause you cant cause or cause to be caused a light to turn on or off. whether it's opening a refrigerator, or walking past a house with motion detecting lights, or flipping a light switch, it is forbidden.which really begs the question, how is this device not forbidden? Regardless of the mechanism, you are flipping a switch with the full intent to defy god's law and change the state of an electrical device.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: kolonelkadat on April 16, 2015, 09:12:37 pmOh, you should google a lot of the ways that people get AROUND these rules, because obviously that's what was intended when (probably) god made these rules?I want to be religious, but I want to go behind the back of every rule laid out in front of me by my god.Oh, but this switch still causes a light to be turned on, regardless of how it's done. If a motion sensing light is illegal, how the heck is this legal?

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:19:30 pm
content: WTF?So in "Super Sabbath Mode", flicking the switch simply starts a random timer which turns on the light somewhere between tens of seconds and two minutes later? How is that not direct causation again?

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:19:41 pm
content: Orthodox Jews don't work on the Sabbath, at all, if you have a cold then even walking around with a handkerchief in your pocket is considered work (so you tie it around your waist). Using any sort of electrically powered items is a big no no hence the messing around with timers and special switches. The oven thing comes from the great long list of prohibited activities where they took the ban on making a fire and distorted it somewhathttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_ShabbatTradition is a big thing in Jewish life but sometimes I wish that they could be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:20:38 pm
content: Haha this is hilarious. Basically the sabbath prevents you from doing work. Pushing a button is work. It's silliness though considering even Jesus himself found it ridiculous and disobeyed it on several occasions such as when he healed people. The rabis were not happy but he basically told them to screw off.Also I just realized, my thermostat system is probably kosher. I input my work schedule and don't have to touch it after that, typically. Of course I still do because I can but I don't have to.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on April 16, 2015, 09:19:41 pmThe funny thing is, if I was banned from doing any sort of work on sunday, I'd just get REALLY FREAKING GOOD at electronics then program everything to turn on when I wanted it to and program everything to happen simply by me walking in one direction or something. Maybe after standing up from prayers it'd turn on my TV to cinemax.I mean, I have to stand up from prayers so it's not like I can avoid doing it. I didn't read anything about viewing... explicit material on sunday. That's not work is it?

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on April 16, 2015, 09:28:40 pmExcept motion sensors still break the rule. Unless, apparently, you stick a random number generator and timer on there so it waits a few seconds before it reacts...

author: phamuc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:35:21 pm
content: Hey this thing could be made better. Why the need for a Sabbath mode switch. It should automatic switch to Sabbath mode, a little pic chip running a clock should know when it is the sabbath.I am tempted to buy one and sent it to Dave for a tear-down Saturday. It would be ok, because Dave only tears-down things that are not powered

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:49:43 pm
content: ..or you could just stop choosing to waste your life on rules that are so ridiculous you have to go to stupid lengths to subvert them.Surely any attempt to "work round" rules like this means you don't really believe in their value anyway, so just admit it instead of trying to pretend you're playing along.Pathetic. Just pathetic.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:57:28 pm
content: Why not just leave the lights off and pray for God to turn one on when you need it...?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 10:19:25 pm
content: My KitchenAid refrigerator has a Sabbath mode, but I haven't read the manual to see what it actually does. I'm guessing it disables the lights. Not really interested enough as I am not Jewish.Quote from: Tallie on April 16, 2015, 09:57:28 pmWhy not just leave the lights on in the kitchen and dining room and off in the bedrooms?On my last job, I had to do a warranty repair on a laptop for an Orthodox Jewish family. It was an afternoon service call on Friday and I had to be done by $5:00 no excuses. I finished up and was out the door at 4:50 and got to enjoy a piece of fresh baked Challah bread, courtesy of the gentlemen's wife. That was GOOD!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 10:31:56 pm
content: ? ? ? ?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 10:49:28 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on April 16, 2015, 09:19:41 pmGerman EE, I think they already got dragged enough kicking and screaming.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 08:11:36 am
content: My father used to eat in a jewish restaurant when he worked in London in the 50's on Fridays he had to go next door to the dry cleaners which wasn't jewish and buy a ticket for lunch as jews are not allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.Dont know how they got around the cooking though.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 11:29:36 am
content: In all fairness, this is absolutely brilliant! Captive market, all the approvals by the authorities (both spiritual and human), product ready to go... They will probably make some good money until one of the big companies (Leviton, Legrand, etc) enters this market (if that actually happens).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 01:05:43 pm
content: So... I'm not a religious person... I'm struggling to understand this. It's a random delay, so you move the switch, and the light comes on after a few seconds?So, according to Jewish law, because your action did not directly induce some current to flow in a wire, that's OK? But can't it be said that you did induce a current, because the microcontroller/logic inside the switch will have changed states... even if that is a timer circuit, it's still got to start somehow. Uncertainty? What uncertainty? Does it use a quantum-decay RNG to decide whether you can use the light today?Seems like two fingers firmly up to the lord Almighty to me.And apparently you can't use filament bulbs because they are too similar to creating a "fire" (light via incandescence) yet CFLs/ energy savers are OK? Do they not know that CFLs use filaments to start? Are LEDs ok all the time?...

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 01:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 17, 2015, 10:34:04 amI've no problem with restrictions that people choose to apply to themselves, as long as they don't try to enforce those restrictions on anybody else.Shame about the wasted energy from lights being left on, though. I wonder how much it amounts to in total, and how that compares to standby power and other, more conventionally accepted "wasted" power?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 01:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 17, 2015, 01:13:20 pmVery well said.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 02:56:12 pm
content: I think it's not nice to ridicule other people's religious practices, especially when they are this harmless.But yea, European (Ashkenazi) Jews are fully cognizant of how weird this is, and self-irony is a huge part of their culture. Back in the days rich families employed a "Shabbat goy", that is a non-Jewish person whose role was to turn things on and off in their home on Shabbat.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 03:31:32 pm
content: This is a bit similar to Islamic banking where it's haram (forbidden) to charge interest for a loan so they change it to some kind of elaborate fees instead that gives the same end result, and suddenly it's halal (permitted).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:12:42 pm
content: Google for "Shabbat elevator".

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:54:20 pm
content: There was a recent fire which killed 7 children in brooklyn, caused by the family leaving a hotplate on for Shabbat. The plate apparently malfunctioned, and the fire alarm was 2 floors below the bedroom, so the 7 children were killed by smoke, while the husband, wife and eldest daughter escaped via a window.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 05:04:26 pm
content: The ones who follow the rules to the letter are Hasidic Jews and are easy to spot, see the guy on the right:http://m3.i.pbase.com/u23/automat42/upload/37024583.WaitingfortheBrooklynFerry.jpgI once saw a guy dressed like that during a VERY hot day, somewhere between 35C and 40C, and he still looked cool despite the fur hat and overcoat. So, I asked him how he did it as I was suffering from the heat at the time. He just smiled and said "faith" then wished me good morning and went on his way. So, maybe there's something in it.BTW, do you know why lots of Hasidic Jews drive Volvos? It's the only family car that you can drive whilst wearing a Homburg hat.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 05:36:38 pm
content: I don't get it.Alexander.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 07:03:01 pm
content: My refrigerator has a "sabbath mode", as well. It disables the interior lighting and (I think) the automatic defrost.Quote from: mojo-chan on April 17, 2015, 06:15:37 pmNot just the mutilation itself, but the "ritual blowjob" given by the Rabbi:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/metzitzah-bpeh-blood-sucking-jewish-circumcision-ritual-debated-by-nyc-mayoral-candidates-video_n_3360526.htmlSomehow, sucking blood from a newborn boy's mutilated penis doesn't send you immediately to jail as long as you call it a religious ritual....

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 09:21:35 pm
content: Sounds like an infectious case of obsessive compulsive disorder.One person suffers from a delusion and it's a mental health problem that needs treatment. Many people suffer it and it's a religion that is beyond criticism.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 11:31:48 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on April 17, 2015, 02:56:12 pmWhy?That which can be ridiculed, deserves to be ridiculed.And I would also like to point out that EVERY religion has some form of nonsense like this.Every believer is blind to their own silly (and even abusive) rituals/practices, but will easily and frequently criticise, mock and even attempt to outlaw all the other silly rituals.Religion is a meme that does not like competition.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 01:33:48 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 17, 2015, 01:27:53 pmI am also OK with adults having the right to make stupid decisions, but the problem is the KIDS. It's essentially child abuse to distort your child's sense of reality by telling them these lies about the world. The kids don't have a choice, and the kids are the ones that are having these restrictions forced on them.Quote from: Sigmoid on April 17, 2015, 02:56:12 pmIf you think religious practices are harmless, you don't know much about history. To be fair to the Jews, they aren't the only crazy ones. All religions are equally deserving of the same level of ridicule.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 02:21:46 am
content: Completely ignoring the absurdity of that practice, does it allow the turning off of something that was already on?

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 02:59:09 am
content: There's a way around all this by using a Eruv:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EruvIn NY City, the area of Riverdale (west side of the Bronx) has a wire running around it that is continually checked for continuity. This is to make sure that observant Jews in Riverdale can press elevator buttons and such on Saturday.https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zHGVJr0VGcy4.kmkNglxJ-8J4&msa=0

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 03:48:10 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 18, 2015, 02:21:46 amIf so, this whole thing could be replaced with a relay with a pair of NC contacts. Shut off the coil to turn on the light.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 04:20:08 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 18, 2015, 01:33:48 amChild abuse? So every religious practice or custom that doesnt line up with your world view is borderline child abuse? I grew up in a "Christian" environment and while I was taught some things that I dont believe were correct, I do believe they had the best intentions, just misguided.Some religious practices are extremely harmful, and many religious have had abuses of power that dont line up with there own religious texts....but Jews obeying the sabbath seems pretty harmless to me...?Anyways, it is a pretty cool product design, and there is a demand for it, so its certainly successful in one sense. Of course.......I think audiophool equipment is a better investment.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 04:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 17, 2015, 10:34:04 amNot always.Don't know if it has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread yet, but there was a guy in NYC who lost *SEVEN* children at once to a fire caused by the family leaving the oven on overnight so they would not be "breaking the sabbath".Absolutely appalling waste of life for NOTHING. That man's life is also ruined - all over a bunch of foolish fairy tales that adults should know better than to take seriously.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 04:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on April 17, 2015, 02:56:12 pmRidiculous things should be ridiculed, not given implicit endorsement because people don't want to offend others. If religious practices don't affect anyone else - then fine - but they almost always do, like innocent children who are brainwashed into believing ridiculous things because their parents did, or the rest of society picking up the tax burden of these "non taxable" groups. Shameful.QuoteI'm not sure there are any religious that aren't ridiculous and filled with childish bullshit that grown adults should be laughing at. Whether it's the belief that putting a wafer in your mouth actually "is" the literal flesh of a dead guy, or the mental gymnastics that people go through to justify their individual actions as good, and so on.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 04:53:59 pm
content: I do not want to offend anyone. Just some minor advice. Teach your children a religion only if you personally believe it.Are you a Muslim? OK, but do not send your children to a Christian school.Are you a Jew? OK, but do not send your children to a Buddhist school.Are you an atheist? OK, but never send your children to a Catholic Christian school, especially if there are 10% Catholic people in your country and some 80% of atheists or agnostics.I wish my parents knew it back in 2000.Are you an atheist but you think thatreligionis a part ofgeneral knowledge? OK, but still do not send your children to a religious school. Buy them someEncyclopedia of world religionslike this, when they are 15 years old.http://www.amazon.com/Merriam-Websters-Encyclopedia-World-Religions-Merriam-Webster/dp/0877790442/http://www.amazon.com/World-Religions-Faiths-Explored-Explained/dp/0756617723/Short:Let your children be taught whatyoubelieve.

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 05:00:20 pm
content: Consider this: Kosher was initially used for food stuff. Now, why would anyone in their right mind put a Kosher approval on Hydrochloric acid (The cleaning stuff)? I blame marketing and lawyers.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 05:27:35 pm
content: So, not allowed to turn on a light, no problem grabbing your gold plated iPhone 6S Plus +, unlocking the screen, turning on the backlight(thats a light all right..), opening an app and turn the light on?Doesn't make a lot of sense..

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 06:11:40 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 18, 2015, 04:26:27 pmDo you suggest that orthodox Jews have more house fires or shorter life expectancy in general?It's interesting that people here pay so much attention to the little technicalities, as if they already accepted the underlying and much bigger claims of the religion (creation, supervising God, etc)

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 10:33:09 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 18, 2015, 06:11:40 pmFunny that, that's exactly what I think about when it comes to that subject. For example how could you know for certain you're omnicogniscient? Even if you really were?..

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 03:46:25 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 18, 2015, 04:53:59 pmNo. Very much NO.Give your children a proper education and teach them about ALL religions, past and present.Once they have an adequate understanding and a reasonable knowledge of the subject, tell them what you believe and then LET THE CHILD MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.Anything else is indoctrination/brainwashing. Perhaps even psychological abuse.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 05:07:07 am
content: Now I'm going to be up all night considering ways to not directly turn lights on or off.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 05:09:52 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on April 19, 2015, 05:07:07 amDoes this count?....https://youtu.be/3lBWjLJeKkQ

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 05:16:11 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 19, 2015, 05:09:52 amI was thinking about that game from when I was a kid called "Kerplunk" where several sticks were holding up a bunch of marbles and you would take turns with other people pulling the sticks out until the marbles fell.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 03:55:33 pm
content: QuoteThat's rather impractical:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditionsNote that this does not include all sects, denominations, branches and similar. Just christianity has several thousand:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 03:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: cimmo on April 19, 2015, 03:46:25 amWhy bother? Unless you're going to teach them every language, read them every book, etc etc. What can they gain from learning aboutanotherset of old stories?

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 04:15:23 pm
content: Children should at least learn about the major religions and their beliefs, if only in the interest of general cultural literacy.Like it or not, all those old fairy tales and scary stories have had a huge influence on human history and behavior right up to modern times.Pointing out the varied and contradictory beliefs of the various religions should lead kids to understand that none of them has "the answer", and by extension, that they are all BS to varying degrees.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 04:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on April 19, 2015, 03:55:33 pmAnd all you have to do is show them those lists.Is that so impractical?Teaching a child something is not the same as studying it for a masters degree.Would you rather they remain ignorant and be prey to the first silly idea that comes along?

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 04:47:49 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 19, 2015, 03:58:34 pmThe key word you have overlooked is "ABOUT".I advocate teaching ABOUT religions, not teaching the details and practices of all those religions.This is no different than telling a child that there is more than one language in the world - NOT teaching them how to read or speak them.And education is not the same as advocacy - one can inform a child about these various beliefs without advocating any specific one as being true.Why do so many people on this thread (who seem happy to mock Judaism) seem to want to keep their children ignorant of what is possibly the most important thing on the planet - assuming there is a god, wouldn't you prefer your child to at least be aware of the correct one?

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 05:06:31 pm
content: But why stop at merely gods? Wouldn't it be appropriate to teach your children about all imaginary creatures humanity has created over the centuries, so they can make an educated decision which one to praise?Assuming there is a magical being that decides on your fate after death, wouldn't you at least want your child to be aware of it? I bet flying unicorns in the kingdom of invisible leprechauns and squiggly spaghetti would be infuriated if your child arrived to their gates completely oblivious of their existence.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 05:20:45 pm
content: A good introductory lesson:

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 05:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on April 19, 2015, 05:06:31 pmYes it would. That would be providing an education in mythology - an entirely appropriate subject (for a certain age, at least).But the rest of your comment implies that you'd rather your child be ignorant.Fair enough, just don't get upset when s/he comes home one day after having been persuaded by some huckster that <insert wacko idea here> is the duck's guts.We inoculate our children against pathogens with controlled exposure to those organisms.We can inoculate our children against memetic influences with controlled exposure as well.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 06:48:09 pm
content: Taking advice on belief or religion from an atheist/agnostic is like hiring an interior decorator who is color-blind.It appears that endless (and useless) arguments aboutreligionarenotone of the automatically-banned topics on these forums.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 06:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 19, 2015, 06:48:09 pmYes, people who have made a conscious decision not to believe somethingclearlyknow nothing about belief.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 08:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 19, 2015, 06:48:09 pmBad analogy because you do have to decorate your house in some way, you don't have to pick a religion. But if you must stick with it - getting religious advice from any member of a specific religion is like hiring an interior decorator who has only ever heard of, seen, or used the color blue. No other color exists to them, and the merethoughtof using another color is considered blasphemy and will result in eternal torture in a lake of fire

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 08:38:10 pm
content: I don't understand why people care so much what other people believe. You are free to pursue your happiness (e.g. by building a NAND only frequency counter or collecting DMMs) and they are free to pursue their (e.g. by assuming a deity and a set of self imposed rules). That's the beauty in personal liberty.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 09:43:28 pm
content: Honestly I don't mind what people believe, as long as it doesn't negatively impact on others. I was having this discussion with a creationist. They believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, but they do not accept other wacky parts of the bible like stoning adulterers. I'm fine with that, it makes them happy, and it doesn't affect me.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 09:56:14 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 19, 2015, 08:38:10 pmThat would be beautifulifreligion were a matter of personal liberty. However, proselytism is common to most religions, as is indoctrination of children.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 10:13:22 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on April 19, 2015, 08:18:05 pmApparently the only alternatives are Green and Purple:

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 11:24:48 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 19, 2015, 08:38:10 pmYou have to care what yourgirlfriend / boyfriendbelieves in before you try to marry her / him or establish a closer relationship.On the other hand, I do not care what my teacher, workmate or shop assistant belives.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 11:33:35 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on April 19, 2015, 09:56:14 pmWhen is the last time you got proselytized by an orthodox Jew? I don't think they care much how you chose to live your life.As, for educating kids, it's natural for parents to transfer to their kids their own view of the world. What do you think atheists do? Just the same.MYOB and live and let live.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 11:38:49 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on April 19, 2015, 06:48:09 pmWell at least that interior decorator realizes they are blind to something ...

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2015, 11:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: cimmo on April 19, 2015, 05:38:43 pmMy point is that there is no line between various mythological creatures and deities. There is no proof that either exist and there never will be. The only difference is that people generally accepted that eight-legged horses are a myth.I certainly will be explaining these subjects to my children (whenever that happens) when they are old enough to understand such concepts.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 12:11:10 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 19, 2015, 11:33:35 pmYou will note that I saidmostreligions. Maybe 0.2% of mankind is Jewish - thanks for confirming my argument.QuoteHardly. Atheists don't tell their children they will burn in hell if they dare to question their teachings. Nor do they routinely feed them pseudoscientific claptrap instead of actual science.QuoteMost people would like nothing better. Unfortunately 'live and let live' is often preached by religions but rarely practiced. The history of religion is frequently one of bloody and violent conflict.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 12:51:24 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on April 20, 2015, 12:11:10 amGood, so you don't care how orthodox jews chose to live their live. That's a good start.Quote from: rolycat on April 20, 2015, 12:11:10 amWhy should they? That's not their point of view. Read my post again. It's natural for parents to pass to their children their own point of view, including atheists.Quote from: rolycat on April 20, 2015, 12:11:10 amI don't think orthodox jews initiated too many bloody violent conflicts, but somehow the way they chose to live their lives still bothers you.Live and let live.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 01:18:05 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 20, 2015, 12:51:24 amThey are outright nasty within their own communities and on their borders. If push ever comes to shove and the welfare stops I think they will radicalise and lash out.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 01:23:07 am
content: Quote from: Marco on April 20, 2015, 01:18:05 amI don't oppose some kind of welfare to temporarily help someone out in a tough time, but I think they should taper it off a few dollars a week just to keep away any incentive to stay that way.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 01:27:00 am
content: Quote from: Marco on April 20, 2015, 01:18:05 amOk, so they didn't initiate any bloody violent conflict despite being on the receiving side of a few, and you speculate that they may radicalize and start a bloody violent conflict if some welfare will stop. Got it. Thanks. Now I understand why they bother you so much.

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 01:37:19 am
content: Reading through this thread

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 04:13:17 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 18, 2015, 06:11:40 pmI am suggesting that when people leave their ovens on overnight, that is foolish and dangerous. If they do so on the basis of a silly nonsensical and irrational belief in fairy tales, then it is a tragic loss of live for absolutely no reason.And I find it interesting that someone would deflect criticism of something that directly led to seven children burning to death "a little technicality".

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 04:19:04 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 19, 2015, 11:33:35 pmI don't know any atheists who impose their view of the world on their children. But I know many who don't impose any views and leave it up to their children to make up their own mind.It is a curious thing that, when not brainwashed at a young age, children tend not to gravitate towards any religion. It is generally only those who were indoctrinated from youth who - as adult - engage in various mental gymnastics to create circuitous and illogical arguments as to why something is true, even when they know deep down inside it's clearly false.And I smiled at the falling apart of the personal liberty thing when it comes to indoctrinating children. People *always* have the asterisks and exceptions in their deep rooted beliefs (and the accompanying justifications as to why it's not actually an exception).

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 04:32:31 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 20, 2015, 01:27:00 amSorry, I did not make a distinction between ultra-orthodox and orthodox ... the ultra-orthodox might not start bloody conflict, but they are already throwing stones.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 03:34:24 pm
content: Again, I'm all for religious freedom, but this goes beyond that. This is stupidity, regardless of whether it's "tradition" or not. Believing that switching a switch will send you to your "hell" is ridiculous. I think, as thinking adults, ridiculing stupidity is a good thing. I think that today, with all the "PC" bullcrap running around, people are afraid to tell other people they are wrong or what they are doing is stupid. No, I don't think we should ridicule people asking very novice questions online (or similar). I'm talking about people who are so stuck in their beliefs that they refuse to look at anything differently. Letting things like this propagate and spread throughout the internet is how pseudoscience websites pop up and gain so much support. (Not that orthodox jews are trying to spread throughout the internet.)If God is one who will send me to hell based on whether or not I switched a switch or put out a fire burning my damn house down, then I don't want to go to a heaven where that god presides. (If I believed in such things.)Science has already disproven much of what was originally interpreted from many religious texts, but religions keep moving the goalposts. Science has already convinced me. I think it would be a good thing if it convinced more people.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 04:01:01 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on April 20, 2015, 03:34:24 pmI see your point. Your way is the right way and everybody else should recognize and join it.Makes sense to me.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 06:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 20, 2015, 04:01:01 pmI realize you're being sarcastic, but I stick by what I said. Science and the scientific method is HUMANITY'S BEST way of FIGURING CRAP OUT. If you don't believe what science provides evidence for, what DO you believe? The scientific method IS the RIGHT way. So yes, MY way, being the scientific method, is right, as realized by millions of scientists who have lived since it was thought up. Believing something, with zero evidence, just because someone told you to, is stupid. Very, very foolish.Sure, science can be wrong sometimes (not often), but we're long past the days where we need a deity to explain things. Despite what people say, we're also long past the days when you can reconcile science and religion. You either believe what science says and realize that religion is only good for teaching good morals, or you unequivocally believe what a piece of really old propaganda tells you. A person cannot fully believe both. If you say you can, you've obviously not thought about either very thoroughly, or have ignored the inconsistencies enough to keep your "faith."

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 06:36:32 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on April 16, 2015, 09:20:38 pmWorking requires consuming calories, so if we define work as ' burning calories' then even eating , walking, yes: breathing, burns calories so is considered work.So they should all hold their breath for 24 hours and the world can move on then.Theosophical and religious things aside ( you can believe all you want , at home , or anywhere you want ,that is your prerogative. I will not comment on that. to each his own. ) and i can understand 'no work' rule. but if blowing your nose or turning on the light is considered 'work' .... then why stop there. breathing is work too.The whole light thing alone is silly. The rule is : do not make fire. A lightbulb is not fire ! There is no combustion process involved. Fire is a combustion process. A candle would be considered 'fire'. a lightbulb, CCFL or LED is not fire !Aha, but what if the switch sparks ! Put a dampening capacitor across it. Now, may i introduce you to the year 2015 ?

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 08:22:17 pm
content: There is a religious institute here (Israel) devoted to modernizing and finding solutions to such religious problems. I must admit, I have never heard of 'no nose wiping on Saturday' before.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 08:40:32 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on April 20, 2015, 06:23:40 pmIt's not about belief A vs. belief B, it's about being humble vs. being cocky. None of us has special ability to determine 'the real truth' and anything that you believe now will look ridiculous in 1000 years (remember the four elements earth, water, air, and fire?).

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 09:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 20, 2015, 08:40:32 pmYou are exactly right. The difference is that science and the scientific method attempts to find the truth, where as religion simply changes what it "interprets" out of it's texts to fit with what science (and popular belief) tells them to. (Oh a day in god's eyes isn't necessarily a day in our eyes... (In reference to "god created the universe et. al. in 7 days.))You can be damn sure that science is a hell of a lot closer than religion is to what we'll believe in the future. The probability of science proving a "deity" created everything with one fell swoop of his hand is very, extremely, miniscule.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 09:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: Gribo on April 20, 2015, 08:22:17 pmI believe the reference was to the 'no tearing' prohibition - If observant Jews don't have tissues or pre-torn toilet paper they aren't permitted to tear any to wipe their nose (or any other part of their anatomy).

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 09:22:16 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 20, 2015, 08:40:32 pmSounds suspiciously like what we now call the four states of matter, ie solid, liquid, gas, plasma. Maybe they were onto something after all.!

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 09:29:04 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on April 20, 2015, 06:23:40 pmWell your view of religion is, from one viewpoint, ridiculously idealistic, and from another, quite narrow.So let's start at the beginning. Religion is a horrible way of teaching good morals. Many religions advocate horrible practices of inhumanity, cruelty and just plain general bad conduct. Religion is not even the source of morality as some insist - Western morality is the result of several millennia of lots of people living close together in Europe and around the Mediterranean, but any comparable culture has evolved its morals from the requirement of living together in relative peace.So if we want good morals, we don't need religion. You don't need God to tell little Timmy that he shouldn't hurt others. He just needs to be made aware that others are living, feeling humans like himself.As for your narrow view... You really think that religion is about ancient theories on the origin of the world? That "7 days" is somehow integral to Christian faith? Come on! And there are some religions with even less objectively "historic" scripture. And as for the "elimination of God"...I recently read an article about how the theoretical state before the Big Bang is entirely plausible based on our current knowledge of the rules of the universe, therefore a "divine spark" isn't necessary. But someone may then ask "who put the laws of physics there"? I mean the laws of existence are SOMETHING, right? Where did they come from? Oh...Right?Of course I'm not advocating belief in God. Definitely not advocating acting silly and irrational based on such belief. Just saying that if you want to eliminate any notion of a God, you have a long (infinitely long) way to go.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2015, 10:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on April 20, 2015, 09:29:04 pmThe "7 days" may not be integral to the christian faith, but it's a very hotly argued topic, hence the inclusion here. I was merely demonstrating "moving the goalposts." Oh and how the die hard christians love to argue the point I mentioned above.If religion isn't about ancient theories, and it's not about morality, what IS it about? Following ridiculous traditions for no reason? Community? Why does a bunch of people need to believe in a made up character to be a good community? (I'm picking on christianity here) The 10 commandments are essentially "Rules to live your life by if you want to be a good person." (Minus the ridiculous ones about believing in one god.) Aka, morals. No, we don't need religion to teach morals, but the threat of eternal damnation is a pretty convincing(and convenient) reason to be a good person. Unlike you, most religious people ignore the atrocities committed by many of the religions in the past. (Let's not forget the wide use of torture by the church in the many inquisitions of the past.) Sure, countries have done similar things, but religions did it because people wanted to think differently, not because some asset was being threatened.Yes, the big bang. What the more educated of the religious argue about. Specifically what happened BEFORE the big bang. No, we do not know, but scientists have statistically proven that a universe like ours is very likely to exist, over other universes where laws of physics are different. Sure, it's statistics, but until we can build particle colliders that can produce particles with energies on the levels of what was experienced in the big bang (not ever going to happen.) we won't know. We can only theorize. And even our theories don't require a deity. Why do we need someone to CREATE the laws? Science has proven many things wrong in the bible, therefore the "smarter" of the religious people take it back (literally) to the beginning of our universe and say "Well you don't know what happened then so therefore *GOD*" Yeah, sorry, you tried that before when scientific thought was in it's infancy, and you're still moving the goalposts. Pointing out places where a god COULD exist != the existence of a god.I don't think we have an infinitely long way to go. We do not have to know what happened before the big bang. We need to teach everyone to think rationally and objectively about everything. They will eventually (like I did) figure out that their religion is a bunch of BS stories propagated to scare people into acting a certain way.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2015, 01:34:33 am
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on April 20, 2015, 09:29:04 pmSomewhere on planet Earth 15,000 years ago ...Og drop rock on foot - it hurt foot.Og drop rock on Zog's foot - it hurt Zog.Zog throw rock at Og - it hurt Og.Og throw rock back at Zog - it hurt Zog.Og and Zog get together and agree rocks hurt each other when thrown - agree to stop throwing rocks.Beginning of morals.It don't require deities to figure this out people.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2015, 01:56:05 am
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on April 20, 2015, 09:29:04 pmYou and I are capable of understanding that logic, and by extension the difference between right and wrong. Oddly enough (and I had to have a professor of psychology explain this to me in little words) a *majority* of the population (something like 75%) never reach that level of emotional development and actually *need* someone to give them hard and fast rules to live by (ie religion). No matter how badly you think of organised religion (and I'm neither a fan nor a believer), it gave people who are not clever enough to self determine right and wrong based on morality, some rules to live by (ie don't be shitty to one another).

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2015, 02:18:29 am
content: Quote from: BradC on April 21, 2015, 01:56:05 amI find it hard to believe that 75% of people lack empathy. There is no freaking way the human species could survive if that was the case.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2015, 03:00:13 am
content: Quote from: Dave on April 21, 2015, 02:18:29 amIt's not empathy, it's the ability to associate empathy with causation. It's that logical connection and the ability to think the process through to its final consequences. How many people do *you* know that can actually analyse a process from start to finish without reverting to external guidance? Now apply that to every action you perform, every day. Some people do that naturally. Most don't.These people don't make the connection between "Oh he got a hammer through the skull, that's not nice and must have hurt" and "I'm going to put a hammer through his skull and steal his wallet". There's no sense of consequence when it applies to others.I thought the number sounded high too, but he provided a couple of studies for me to look at. In reality the number is pretty irrelevant, it turns out to be a relatively small proportion of people who are actually developed enough to determine right from wrong without having someone explain it to them first.Look, I'm not defending religion, but one thing it does do is give people who need something to believe in, something to believe in. It also lays some behavioral rules down where people are not clever enough to come up with them on their own.I do a lot of work in custodial facilities, and a very common theme is it just never occurred to them that beating up the elderly gentleman to steal his cigarettes was wrong.I'm not going to reply further because that would become "arguing on the internet" and we all know that way leads to madness. Whether you agree I have a point, or not, you can't argue that from a moral and ethical standpoint, things are getting worse and not better. There are many causes, and despite my distaste for organized religion I can't help but think the de-emphasis of the church is one of them.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2015, 05:04:47 am
content: Quote from: BradC on April 21, 2015, 03:00:13 amThe same people will, without question beat up gays, torture women and children, commit acts of terror, mass murder, and war, just because "God" told them to. Those who don't understand why it's wrong to kill an old man for his valuables would, if deeply religious, would be absolutely positive that killing a gay person is the law of God and an act of absolute good.Yes, if we assume that religion teaches "not to be a dick" (ie. some of the 10 commandments), then it might be good for "crowd control"... but most religions don't teach that. Not being a dick is the first lesson in Sunday school. All the rest are about when you should be a dick and to whom, and who totally deserves being horribly punished by God or those faithful to God.The people who take the good part of religions, and live by them, ignoring or denouncing the bad, are in fact the same people who would be ethical without religion.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2015, 05:26:03 am
content: ...so what is religion then...It is, and has been, definitely used as a way of crowd control, for good or evil.Most religions also show traces of attempts at explaining the how's and why's of the world.But ultimately, in my view, religion (as in not "any specific religion", more like "the noumenous and transcendental as something humans do") is an attempt at finding meaning and fulfillment in the ultimately absurd experience of the human condition. That the world exists, and we exist in it as human beings, and to top it off, we actually are experiencing this existence.And even if science explains more and more of the how's of reality and human beings, that still leaves us with "why" and "what are we supposed to do now". And yes, Atheists, "just because" and "enjoy it while it lasts" are in fact valid answers. But the freedom to seek other answers is very important if we want to remain humans.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2015, 06:00:47 am
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on April 21, 2015, 05:26:03 amWTF is being an human? We often put ourselves at the top or at the bottom, depending on our point of view. We really have no idea, just lying ourselves.Why are ignorants so full of ego and people that question everything get easily in varying levels of depression? Why is our mind so delicate and easily to get broken?We refuse to acknowledge there's no meaning in our life's other than the one we believe, it's an extremely subjective and unstable experience.Are religions the most old way of antidepressants? Are they a way to make us less aware of a reality our limitations are unable to understand? Are they a way to make us stop thinking and follow a routine accepted by other group of people and not feel alone?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2015, 06:10:14 pm
content: OK I think we have all had our say and to avoid the risk that the argument goes religiously on with no resolution as clearly religions can never agree lets call it a close shall we.