[Rant] New UPS fail almost out of box - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: blueskull
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 08:29:53 am
content: Well, I moved to my new home, and I decided to make it a good home lab, and as part of my plan, I think I will need a UPS to make sure my computer and more important, home server, to stay powered in a power outage, which is common here. I figured out that it will take me ~20 minutes to fire up my generator and to run needed cables to my room, so I sized my UPS accordingly, an APC 1500 Pro UPS and an additional external battery pack.I set things up just ~10 days ago, and well, the UPS has failed. It suddenly turned off with F06 displaying on its LCD, and won't power up again. I removed both internal and external battery pack, with no help either. It seems like the UPS is dead. If I plug in AC power or install a battery pack, it will beep 3 times with very faint sound, then go quiet. If I then press power button, it beeps once, then nothing.A bit googling shows F06 error means a faulty relay, and I have no idea how that can happen -- my load is, totally, less than 800W max, and at the time it fails, the load is less than 500W. If my load didn't burn the relay, then how can it fail?Needless to say, I will call APC tomorrow and ask them how on earth their QC can be so bad. This unit literally dead in just a bit more than a week of service. The ventilation is not great, but the holes were not covered either. The unit body is cool to touch, and no smell coming out of the unit after the first 48 hours. I'm sure the load didn't have a short or any similar catastrophic failure, because I'm currently typing on the computer which is its biggest load.Any ideas how this can happen?

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 08:36:11 am
content: How can QC catch failures thatwilloccur during the early failure phase of the bathtub curve? As long as they promptly fix the problem and as long as this failure isn't exceedingly common, I see no reason to complain that much.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 09:27:57 am
content: In any case, you have a warranty claim which will cost you nothing (apart from maybe a little transportation) to remedy. Yes, it's inconvenient and annoying but that's why products have warranties and depending on your country, you have laws to protect you from financial losses due to faulty goods.In Australia, such a fault will cost you no more than a trip to where you bought it from. These things happen. I bought a very expensive oven and relays in that failed too. It cost me nothing to get it fixed (they came to me).

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 12:11:00 pm
content: APC are exceptional about replacing failed units. Give them a call and they'll tell you the best way to get it sorted.rs20 is right. Early life failures happen. These devices are built and shipped. There's no time for a burn-in period. If you want a UPS that has all the extra up-front QA/QC applied, be prepared to pay significantly more (like an order of magnitude). People don't want to pay the premium on low-end product, so manufacturers don't give them the option.Relays weld. That's why they have a relay weld detector. Sounds like you copped a bad unit. Replace it and move on.Out of interest, is it a SmartUPS or a BackUPS?If failures never happened, no company would need a warranty support department. Early life failures happen.I *can* tell you that phoning any company and getting stuck into them about your perception of their QC won't make your warranty replacement any smoother.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 09:08:15 pm
content: On that note, I'd much rather have a product fail early than part way through it's rated life. Nothing is more annoying that having something in service for some time for it to fail randomly. If you're putting anything into a production environment, thorough testing should form part of your roll-out schedule, I guess at home that would be a little different, but even then, I don't put anything in my server rack until it's been bench tested for a good week or so.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 02:22:43 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 26, 2017, 08:29:53 amI guess you have never ran a business or been responsible for a QC department then. Early life failures do happen, and they are nigh impossible to catch in an economical manner. Like everyone else has said APC is a high quality company and very easy to work with. Calling them up and acting likeyouknow more then them is not going to help you at all.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 03:23:45 am
content: Here is the flip side to that. I have 3 APC SmartUPS 1500s here in my office, 1 for my workbench/networking gear, 1 for my company computer, monitors and printers(no laser) and 1 for my personal computer and ham radio gear. Plus there are 3 more spares in the garage. They were deployed in 2004, removed from service and asset depreciated in 2010 and are still going strong today. Regular battery replacement is all that has been done. In fact, it's time to replace the batteries again and they typically last about 4 years. Much better than the crappy HP units we have now. Thank God for national accounts.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 04:09:18 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 27, 2017, 03:53:04 am

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 04:14:08 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 27, 2017, 03:53:04 amSo, back to the question. BackUPS or SmartUPS? Schematics are hard to come by, but even the latest SmartUPS (non-RT version) is still based on the old 4th Generation SUA and there is a schematic available out there for an early SUA1500 unit. The BackUPS is a different animal, and there are many variants. Schematics for some of the older ones are around but because of the variance in the product range the guts are not as well understood as the SmartUPS versions.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 04:37:40 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 27, 2017, 04:26:25 amI'm not quite sure why that's unfortunate. Much more information out there on those should make it easier to repair if you are that way inclined.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 07:31:23 am
content: APC have been bought over by Schneider. One dodge they're up to is fitting 7Ah batteries in the larger 17Ah-style cases. So, you pay more for what seems like a better unit, but in fact you are getting no more runtime than the cheaper unit. Worse, there is no official or non warranty-voiding way to upgrade it to the proper batteries.I don't have an issue with them fitting subsize batteries to make the product cheaper IF they're upfront about that situation. Effectively then it's a budget model of the fullspec unit. But, the specification was cleverly worded to avoid mentioning that. Result was that I paid substantially more than I needed to, for something that was no advantage over a lower priced unit.The unit was for a client, and my worry was that the client might discover the subsize batteries and assume I had cheated him. So, I decided to explain the situation. Whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. Rather like selling paint tins with false bottoms. Or, like the fake 18650's that have an AA inside.Have one of the 'real' APC units on my server rack, and that has been rock solid.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 09:17:37 am
content: Sucks that it happened, but sounds like you get to keep the broken one and now get a new one? I guess this turned into a win, especially if all it is is a bad relay.What sucks is having to ship something like that back as often the shipping cost makes it prohibitive.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 11:12:07 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 27, 2017, 04:26:25 amLots of info on the APC UPSses on internet. These aren't complicated and as long the magic smoke didn't come out the fix should be super easy. You are an electronics engineer after all...?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 11:57:51 am
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on September 27, 2017, 07:31:23 amAnd there are more annoying things. In the old days a SmartUPS was always line-interactive. Now you have to check the datasheet very carefully to make sure it's really line-interactive. They've introduced a new secret communication protocol and if you don't use their crappy software you have to buy a module talking the old protocol (Legacy Communications SmartSlot Card). Everyone knows that the battery packs are overpriced. If you happen to see genuine packs with Kung Long batteries, don't be surprised! I'd check out other UPS manufacturers. APC seem to ruining their brand for more profit.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 12:34:06 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on September 27, 2017, 07:31:23 amCorrect!And, that's the point where the famous APC UPS workhorses begun to pant and puff...There still are three kinds of (affordable) APC UPS families:1. The 'Back' family of line interactive units (see: AVR) with a lousy (multi-level, perhaps? --not sure) 50/60 Hzstepped sinewaveconverter unit inside,2. The 'Smart' family of line interactive units (see: AVR) with a low frequency (iron) power transformer being driven by a 15-25 kHz PWM, either for battery charging or for a (>3% distortion) sinewave output when on battery power, and3. The 'Smart RT' double-conversion family of <1% distortion sinewave output (continuously), full of high frequency ferritic DC-DC converters and a high voltage DC-AC inverter with a considerably large LC filter at the output stage.A 3kVA APC Smart (not -RT) UPS hardware discovery and topology can be found here:andThe best UPS I have ever had (and still have in use) is a Smart RT (1kVA [initially!], 2002 built), with a 2kVA power board. Since I have it reverse engineered (how could I not have, really?), this is what exists inside:- A (~3kVA) wide-input Line PFC booster to the internal VBus of +/- 400 VDC, based on two capacitor banks of 1000uF/450V each,- A half-bridge AC inverter of VBus to 230VAC true sinewave output,- An isolated (~2.5kVA) push-pull battery booster (of 4 x 12V/9Ah in series batteries) to VBus, when the mains line is inadequate or absent,- An isolated 100W half-bridge flyback battery charger, being powered by the VBus, and- A (<25W) multiple output isolated flyback being powered by the 48V battery bank for the Control Board and the MOSFET/IGBT driver and the input/output signals stages.In my opinion, if you are depended on AC generators power during mains shortages you should choose nothing less than a double-conversion UPS if you value your protected machinery and your UPS investment.-George<EDIT>: Attachment added

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 02:59:47 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 26, 2017, 08:29:53 amI believe that your control board (being powered by the dying battery bank) has a problem of power starvation, probably because the battery bank charger has failed. Check the high and low voltage fuses!Quote from: blueskull on September 27, 2017, 03:53:04 amWell, I hope that the following information might be of some help to you for repairing the failed unit:Here is an older generation (meaning, a pre Schneider acquisition of the APC, without the LCD and the newer logic section) schematic sheets of theBack PRO 280-420-650 (640-0226D Rev.4, 1994)UPS and theSmart 1000-1400 (640-0733D Rev.4, 1997)one.It can be seen that in the Smart series, the uCU creates via a DAC the output reference sinewave that is being compared to the HV output feedback. In the Back series there is no DAC produced reference sinewave to guide the output power stages.-George

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 10:15:17 am
content: Funny, I need an APC battery, as i have one which needed a batterry ( old one was stone dead) along with an Eaton that needs one as well. Just on the lookout for some used Telecoms batteries though, and then will put them in an external configuration, like my other current UPS, which used a really tiny 7Ah battery inside, but which now has an external deep cycle battery.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 02:49:57 am
content: I don't know if this is just a corporate policy at my company or if it's an actual law but I've been told telecoms can't sell/give old batteries out anymore so might be hard to come by.It's kinda too bad because they switch out power plants every now and then and would love a string myself. Even "bad" cells would give a pretty good run time in a residential environment.I personally use 4 12v 100ah deep cycle batteries for my setup at home, good for about 4 hours. I eventually want to update to a 48v dual conversion setup though. Probably do solar at same time and just tie it all to one project/battery bank.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 04:12:42 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 01, 2017, 03:40:21 amThere isn't (at least not in Australia). You'll generally find if the asset is owned by the business and has become obsolete, it's not worth the time or money spent to prepare them so their in a state to be given away (such as erase hard disks etc...). It's generally quicker and easier just to write off the asset.I worked for a large telco about 9 years ago and we did sell off old computers as we refreshed the technology. However at one point we ended up with a pile of hundreds of monitors and desktop PCs. It took a few of us weeks to sift through the pile, pull out all the hard disks and test them. I have a photo someone of a room about 30 metres long by 10 metres wide with the floor absolutely covered in old IT gear.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 04:32:46 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on October 01, 2017, 02:49:57 amIf they're anything like car batteries, even totally dead ones have a substantial scrap value and the supplier would ask for the old ones in order to waive the core charge.

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 11:43:27 am
content: Quote from: A Hellene on September 27, 2017, 12:34:06 pmAPC were a cheap option well before Schneider got anywhere near them. In the early to mid 90s they were the world's largest UPS company, but like many companies they got there through superior marketing and not superior engineering.As to the early failure, for that style of UPS the factory would be working on something like 4% DoA (dead on arrival) figure and would be budgeting for a failure rate in that ball park. So no great surprise that you get a dud.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 11:47:36 am
content: Quote from: sibeen on October 01, 2017, 11:43:27 amI always saw APC as the "Toyota Corolla" of UPS. Not fancy, not cheap. Kinda mid-field, but solidly engineered and long lasting. I've had plenty of experience with higher performing units (better density, power handling, features) but they haven't gone the distance. I know plenty of 20 year old APC units still doing the job.I've got some beautiful Eaton and Liebert units here that are half the size with better specs, but at 10 years they're toast.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 06:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: sibeen on October 01, 2017, 11:43:27 amThough BradC has beaten me to it, these are my thoughts:APC products were never were the Holly Grail (or whatever!) of the UPS units available in the market; they were afordable, yetreliableUPS machines; they werehonest devices, delivering [more than] every single inch they promised to do. Yet, nowadays they seem not to be of this kind, any more...Personally I am who I am ONLY because, in my share of the market, I have the name ofthe one who always delivers; I have alayws had agood reputation; a positive NAME in my share of the market. This is what APC has lost after their aquisition by Schneider Electric; this is what Tektronix lost after their aquisition by the Danaher Group; et cetera...So, where does this marketing acquisition scheme of trashing any previously good products lead us?-George

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 11:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: A Hellene on October 01, 2017, 06:11:32 pmIt may lead us to hanging on to older and semi-serviceable APC, TEK and Fluke gear, till they or we stop working.Smartass lazy speculating shareholders and commission grubbing brokers may need to look for an easy buck or REAL WORK elsewhereotherwise go hungry waiting for struggling tech/EE/hobby battlers to spend dumb on new 'fail engineered' or half baked beta products..usually dolled up with marketing based on expired 'reputation driven company' BS to pull in suckers