Long Range Wireless Networking - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BitShard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 01:32:43 pm
content: Hey all,So basically, I just want to know where to go to look for long range wireless networking solutions?It's for a couple of businesses to back up their data (Internet isn't an option) daily, but they don't have line of sight on each other. What tech is out there that could fulfil these requirements? Does it even exist? I know this isn't the best place to ask, but I wasn't sure where else to go.Thanks

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 02:33:31 pm
content: Line of sight is pretty much a requirement. We use a bunch of Ubiquity equipment.We have a link that is 5 miles, but only 250 Mbps due to proximity of tree tops (instead of the possible 1 Gbps).Without line of site, you need to have a second location that is line of sight to both and setup two links. I believe these work at 5 GHz, so they don't bend around things well.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 02:38:40 pm
content: Mobile data, and let someone else worry about the infrastructure?

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 02:50:42 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on September 03, 2014, 02:33:31 pmI concur with Sacherii, you can't beat Ubiquity stuff. Not sure what distance you're attempting to maintain but for the unlicensed equipment arena, you won't find any better performing equipment. if you need some serious backhaul stuff.. look at Ericsson Microwave, but you better get your banker involved.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 03:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: Precipice on September 03, 2014, 02:38:40 pmIn the US, mobile data is stupid expensive. If you need a fair amount of data (say 50 GB per month), the charges actually go UP with volume. They don't want to provide that volume, so they make it cost prohibitive. We are looking at a 18 month pay back for two tall towers and a link, compared to mobile data. Plus, we have no bandwidth limit at 1.5 Gbps. For the amount of data we will be using, the pay back would be much shorter.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 08:24:06 pm
content: Commercial packet radio, VHF or UHF should take you out of the requirement for line of sight. Not sure what frequency's and equipment are allowed where you are though.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 08:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on September 03, 2014, 08:24:06 pmI would worry about throughput, if they are trying daily backups. Last time I did packet it was in the kbits/s.

author: Kohanbash
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 11:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: jlmoon on September 03, 2014, 02:50:42 pmI can also recommend Ubiquiti. I have used it for a dozen or so different projects. I mostly use the Bullet or the Rocket. The price is better then pretty much any competitor. The only downside is their support is not the best (it has slowly been improving). Also the default settings are not compatible with your typical laptop wireless.You might also want to consider directional antennas and amplifiers if needed.http://robotsforroboticists.com/long-distance-wireless-communications-antennas/

author: BitShard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 03:05:30 am
content: Thanks for all of the replies.Internet isn't an option here, mobile is expensive as hell, and hard line would be hundreds of dollars a month and take days to upload.It might be possible to bounce it off of the local tower. Does anyone know what it costs to rent tower space?

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 03:27:34 am
content: Buy a bicycle, buy an external drive, hire a kid, done.First world problems...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 04:45:43 am
content: Tower rental depends on the owner, sometimes it is cheap and sometimes can be wounded buffalo depending on how you approach them. If you can get a municipal water tower that is LOS to both sites you can approach the metro and see the cost. You typically will either have to supply your own power and meter or pay for using the site power, though with low power links you might be able to use a solar panel on the tower ( sun facing side) and bolt a battery box and charge controller to the tower for power.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 04:52:10 am
content: Quote from: BitShard on September 03, 2014, 01:32:43 pmHow far is long range?Google Earth and use the ruler.Let us know.

author: BitShard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 06:51:37 am
content: 2.35 km from site 1 to Tower1.5 km from site 2 to Tower6.2 km from off site to Tower (4.5 km of this is over the ocean)I haven't been on site with the specific intention of looking for LOS to the tower, but I'm fairly certain that LOS can be achieved by all sites. The tower is used for municipal transmissions, radio, TV, 3G, LTE etc.When I go on site next I'll have a look to see if there is any other options.Edit: I've been long term friends with the shire president of the town also, so this might help my cause

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 06:58:55 am
content: What part of the world are you in?Can you put a flag in your profile?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 07:14:41 am
content: Quote from: BitShard on September 04, 2014, 06:51:37 amSneakernet could be an option here.Quote from: BitShard on September 04, 2014, 06:51:37 amNot here...

author: BitShard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 07:21:56 am
content: Galenbo: Yeah, it could, except that it has to be done daily, and would amount to a Terabyte or so of data each day per site.Tautech: The system would be installed in Esperance, Western Australia

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 07:28:33 am
content: Quote from: BitShard on September 04, 2014, 07:21:56 amI'll see if one of my clients can help you.

author: BitShard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 07:31:55 am
content: Thanks, who are your clients, if I'm allowed to ask?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 07:38:14 am
content: Quote from: BitShard on September 04, 2014, 07:31:55 amSure.http://offgrid.net.nz/Popped John an email and pointed him to this thread.You never know, he might be wanting a trip to WA.

author: BitShard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 07:44:02 am
content: Well, that's helpful. Thanks!

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 07:49:42 am
content: If there is a tower that you could use then it might be possible to use it without cost, you just bounce your signal of the tower or any other tall building and pick up the scatter.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 09:02:56 pm
content: @BitShard.Mostly copied from John's emailAdvice fromJohn Sullivanofhttp://offgrid.net.nz/:Perth based associate:John Burns contact details:john@atdigital.com.auHe is Perth based and does wireless links.I don't know if he is familiar with the AirFibre units but he may be of use.A suggestion...1) Use Ubiquiti 2 x 5GHz AirFibre (at about $4k NZD all up)http://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/Read the Manual THOROUGHLY, apply the latest AirOS firmware and two competent computer engineers (one at each end) can set up a pair of AirFibre 5GHZ units using them in bridge mode in less than an hour.2) The volume of data on site may be 1TB but I would be surprised if this needs to be transferred each day. That would be 1TB of file system changes and is not normal ie. you do not need to transfer the whole amount of data stored every day. The backup design MUST use incremental backups (file system changes only) AFTER the first full backup has been recorded onsite and manually transferred to the backup location. (even 1GB/s optical fibre will struggle with 1000GBytes per day - it's not a reasonable ask of ANY full duplex optical fibre link (or an AirFibre link) to transfer that massive volume daily - in short, it aint gonna happen unless you do incremental backups.)The Ubquiti AirFibre 5 is a solid and reliable performer in my experience.hope that helps.Just looked at his scenario again on the blog....2 x AirFibre units aint enough.....2.35 km from site 1 to Tower1.5 km from site 2 to Tower6.2 km from off site to Tower (4.5 km of this is over the ocean)This would mean three links and 6 x AirFibre devices are required (about $12k NZD).One at the "off site" locationOne at site 1One at site 2Three on the tower (setup on three different frequencies as dedicated point to point links).I would link the three AirFibre units via their 1GB/s ethernet ports (at the tower) with a simple 1Gb/s unmanaged data switch.Bear in mind that each AirFibre drains about 40watts so local AC power supplied via a UPS would be desirable as a power source rather than solar as doing that would be a significant cost in its own right.A UPS should be used at each of the three other sites as well.BitShardis welcome to discuss any technical queries he may have.My skype ID is john.offgridThat should get you well on the way to sorted.Thanks to John fromhttp://offgrid.net.nz/

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 10:07:22 pm
content: My previous employer bought a microwave circuit for this purpose from my current employer. Remember you'll need the equipment, power, LOS, and perhaps a radio license, depending on whether you can stay in unlicensed bands at unlicensed levels. It's not just one-time cost, but also the maintenance. If you can get a service provider to deal with all that and hand you an Ethernet cable, all the better, IMO.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2014, 10:20:09 pm
content: You're talking about backing up data across multiple sites; Could you centralise your data storage and access what you need live over the network? That way everything is already in one place (together with a regular backup routine of course) and you're only transferring what you need. Depending on what sort of data you're talking about, you may get away with something less than a 1Gbps link perhaps even just VPN over an internet connection.Just a thought.

author: BitShard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2014, 05:49:20 am
content: The business owners wanted to have a daily image of each drive, and an incremental backup, where the image was replaced every evening. After talking with them, they're not prepared to spend $20k on a data backup solution. I've suggested that they store the images locally and only back up incrementally off site, or discard the imaging idea entirely.This would leave the data in the single digit gigabyte range. (I'll have to check roughly how much data gets changed each day).Also, they suggested something along the lines of a nanobeam, though I'm not sure of its suitability, I'm not familiar with the product.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2014, 05:57:53 am
content: Quote from: BitShard on September 05, 2014, 05:49:20 amI suggest you get in touch with John, he has offered to advise, and he will likely know the nanobeam product.Keep us posted.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2014, 08:32:44 am
content: Quote from: BitShard on September 05, 2014, 05:49:20 amVery old aphorism: "don't underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes". Even more true if you consider modern SSDs!Using an SSD you might not have to worry about incremental backups, and could easily verify the backup and verify that it is correctly stored off-site.Best thing: it is a low-risk-of-failure solution.

author: BitShard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2014, 09:13:01 am
content: I'll send John an email, and ask his opinion. Thanks for the hook up.I would back them up over sneakernet myself, but I'm not a local, and they are frequently away from their businesses, so unfortunately that won't happen. If the incremental backup is in the ballpark of say, 5 GB per day per site, that would make roughly 300 GB per month. (They have automatic stock control and associated software, so I'm not certain on this figure). That would cost them $280 / month in internet, this is all at an upstream bandwidth of 1 MBit/s, which would take 11 hours. So VPN is out of the question too.Looking at the nanobeam data sheet, it appears to be capable of 54MBit/s either direction, which at that speed would take ~15 minutes. It is also only ~$100 - $150 each unit. Again though, could be unsuitable for this application, I'm not familiar with it.Thanks for the advice so far

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2014, 02:07:26 pm
content: I vote for Uniquity as well.For non-line of sight, I would try their 900 MHz locoM9. I would avoid 2.4G simply because of interference.

author: geppa.dee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2014, 11:54:41 am
content: Quote from: Galenbo on September 04, 2014, 07:14:41 amWhat, no waterproof sneakers in Belgium ?Quote from: BitShard on September 05, 2014, 05:49:20 amQuote from: BitShard on September 05, 2014, 09:13:01 amOverunit gigabytevalues (even single digit) for daily incrementals are crazy unless the companies are in the media biz or large (and/or fast) data acquisition. I bet almost no typical company realistically has that kind of need today. I'd question (and check) those estimates.Also, incremetals could be stored locally and only diff-synced remotely for even lower bw consumption.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RsyncIf remote diff sourcing is used, it could even help further. Rsync also compresses that diff data in transit.Regarding the drive imaging: It is not a backup solution any more than RAID is. It's only useful for cold or hotbackup systemsand those don't usually require remote backup unless what they are really after is geo-redundancy.Even then, storing drive images in unecrypted and uncompressed form and diff-syncing them, again, makes the probable day to day bw consumption trivial. I do it with full Linux installs that are bigger than a few GB but the diff-sync algorithm reduces the data transferred to MB on most days. As I mentioned before, it also compresses the data in transit.But most importantly... they should only backup important data... not what's on the OS/big apps install media.And lastly... another vote for Ubiquity or Mikrotik (annoying gits about the GPL as they are). We have hundreds of devices from both brands and all are cheap (within reason) and reliable.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2014, 12:40:37 pm
content: Quote from: BitShard on September 05, 2014, 05:49:20 amHere is see a typical case of management trying to think in technical terms. Please let them think in terms they do understand: risk v.s. cost.In my opinion right now you don't have enough info from the business to even think in terms of possible solutions.In order to even start thinking in terms of solutions the business must first answer all the following questions:What does the business think is acceptable?in terms of not being recoverable at all because it has not been backed up yet.in terms of recovery timein terms of costAsk the above tree question for all of these three scenario'saccidental deletion of datahardware or software failurecatastrophic events (think earthquakes, flooding or fire)When, and only when you have answers to all these questions, you can start in terms of solutions.Of-course management wants the best of the best at little or no cost.After that reality will have to sink in and risk v.s. cost will become more balanced and the appropriate backup solution(s) can be pursued.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 07:04:33 pm
content: Quote from: geppa.dee on September 06, 2014, 11:54:41 amQuick side-bar on the Mikrotik stuff: I'm using one of their high-power WAPs at the moment. So far, I've found one client laptop PCIe card that refuses to keep a connection to it, and all the devices will periodically drop and re-sync at the same time. Not sure how often that happens, as I haven't gotten around to setting up a logger yet. When it works, it works really well (great signal strength and management options), but it's a little less reliable than the consumer box it replaced. To be fair, I've spent very little effort trying to track down the problem, but so far I've found that it is not spontaneously rebooting, just losing connectivity over the RF side.Curious how your experiences compare, and whether you've tried any similar products, or only the bigger guns?