oscilloscope for beginner - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: clkaczor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 04:40:58 pm
content: what is the best scope for a beginner which brand? how many MHZ? how many channels? any advice would be appreciated.Thanks

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 04:48:57 pm
content: What projects do you want to do?What tools do you already have? Multimeter, etc.How much money do you have to spend?Go to your profile page and turn on your country flag. That will aid others in offering advice.

author: clkaczor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 06:02:09 pm
content: I would like to do some radio stuff and wireless, I could probably stretch my budget to a $1000 more or less

author: clkaczor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 06:06:28 pm
content: I have multi-meters and hand tools but, I have no oscilloscope, signal generator, or power supply. I just figured the oscilloscope would be the most important.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 06:49:33 pm
content: Yes, an oscilloscope is important, but in most cases you also need a good power supply and a signal generator. I would spend the most of the money on the scope, because the most important thing is to have a good and accurate scope. Normally a cheap lab power supply (not the cheapest one) is good enough.You asked which brand you should buy for a beginner... I think I would go for a Rigol scope. With the Rigol scopes you get the most performance for your money.

author: Syntax_Error
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 09:37:55 pm
content: For a little over a thousand USD, you can get yourself a Rigol DS1054z 4-channel 50MHz 1GS/sec oscilloscope, a Siglent 3-channel adjustable lab power supply, and an arbitray waveform generator. I am perusing various Siglent models, as they support more modulation features than competing Rigol models.Rigol makes a DS1074z-s model oscilloscope that integrates a 25MHz 2-channel arbitrary waveform generator, so that is something to consider as well. It is a very competitive price point for this instrument, but read and watch reviews before you jump out and buy it. I have seen videos showing that the user interface for the wavegen is atrocious. To each his own.You are going to get many varied responses to your question, and be thankful for that. Different people, different priorities, different situations, etc. I myself am leaning strongly towards separate, modern digital instruments in the hobbyist category, but high enough quality and features to be flirting with the serious user category, but not quite professional. As such, the integrated wavegen in the Rigol doesn't cut it for me, and the Siglent wavegens offer superior features at the same competitive price levels.The power supply issue is a cat that can be skinned a thousand different ways. Make your own, buy old/used/refurbished equipment, buy new, etc. I am again considering the Siglent 3-channel 195W DC lab supply. Not that I won't ever make my own, but I'd like to have a nicer more reliable supply right off the bat, with all the features common today. The Rigol DP832 seems to be popular here as well.I'm sure there are dozens more products in this market space from multiple different manufacturers not mentioned. I simply haven't looked at them all yet.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 10:18:54 pm
content: Hi, long time lurker, first post!I too am looking for an oscilloscope.I have: decent enough multimeter (Fluke), bench power supply 0-30V 5A, and that's about it...I am into things like CNC routers, 3D printers, addressable LED projects, Arduino/Raspberry Pi, Wifi, Bluetooth, IR.What I mostly do is make furniture, but I am beginning to make a lot more circuits for lighting, lighting effects, etc.The other side of things is working with my aged Dad on his autopilot project, which he's been at for a couple of years now - it uses Arduino but is moving to some undefined 32-bit processor, GPS, compass, hall-effect, transistors, caps, etc. and I would like to be more useful to him than I currently am.He was an EE, back in about 1955, but he moved into digital processing and such in 1970 and hasn't really picked up a soldering iron in anger until a couple of years ago - and I have few qualifications except for an ability to read accurately - so we've both had a massive learning curve.And, living on US$250/month, $1000 for a scope is out of the question (we're not poor, that's my 'cut' from her indoors towards my hobbies).I was wondering whether any of the USB-type devices with corresponding software are any good? My needs are modest...I am not sure if I will ever get more 'electronics' than I am now, happy to make the odd circuit to support my maker hobby, and not knowing much about it, I am not sure what features I need (although I have got the XYZ of Oscilloscopes to read).I didn't know anything about sig-gen's, why and what should I look for? Living in the third world, China is my best source of supply and we have full-fat 240V/50Hz as our house supply.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 11:35:35 pm
content: LED, don't know what your country is but looking on eBay, I found a number of 50 MHz scopes under your monthly "stipend". There were new at not much over so would take 2 months to save to get. Look for hamfests in your area and check with local colleges that offer technical programs to see if they have something you can get cheap. If you have something similar to CraigsList, you might find something there. Doing some due diligence will get you a decent starter scope for not much money. Stay away from the USB based scopes. There are enough threads here attesting to the lack of functionality that these offer.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 02:00:41 am
content: A decent older analog scope will do you beter than those USB scopes.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 02:18:26 am
content: A country name and budget is always helpful.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 03:34:40 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 23, 2014, 11:35:35 pmWe don't get eBay - almost no-one in the civilised world will ship to us. Most people think we are in the Middle East, for some reason (we're not, we sit next door to East Malaysia).And my $250 (made a mistake - it's local, not US$ - in US$ it's worth about $190) has to covereverything- stopping doing anything for a couple of months would be a pain - I don't have any filthy vices, except making stuff, but that costs.I suppose I could look around in the UK/Europe and see if my daughter will ship it, but those things weigh a lot, don't they? That is one of the big problems living here - shipping is eye-wateringly expensive.But, I take your comments as the Oracle and will keep away from USB devices - I didn't want to blow up my nice Macbook, anywayThanks for the advice. I'll go snooping around.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 03:36:18 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 24, 2014, 02:18:26 amI thought giving my closest supply source and my monthly 'free' money was helpful, but it seems it was about as helpful as your post. Sorry about that.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 03:55:56 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 23, 2014, 11:35:35 pmWhat's a 'hamfest'? And what's a 'technical program'? Education here is a bit Q'uranic...There's pretty close to zero technical anything. And 'Craigslist'-type selling sites are illegal, apparently. There is a thriving second-hand forum on Facebook (which sucks) but mostly they sell kids clothes and parted out 25 year old Japanese cars.As an example, I make things like 3D printers and CNC machines, for fun, as you do. I have to import every last screw, bolt, piece of wire, shrink-wrap, LED, power supply, power cable, bearing, stepper, filament, etc. Of my latest machine, the only local component was the UK-style power plug on the end of the (imported) AC cable. And that's not because I am a brand snob - I have been all over the country and there just aren't any suppliers of anything (that are affordable). There is a company that will sell me M3 and M5 machine screws - but only a limited range, 3 or so lengths only - and for about $1 - 1.20each. I pay $4 for 50 of my most common screw, from the US. Half that again from China.Otherwise, unless the screw you want comes counter-sunk and with a point, you can't get it here. The only wire you can buy is solid-core AWG8 or 10 - for wiring houses. I even have to import my solder - the local stuff is for leading roofs, I think - about 80% tin, you need about 120W to get it to flow and it's about 3mm in diameterBut, not to complain - I have lived here long enough to know what the deal is and accept that things cost almost nothing due to our zero taxation and free everything social, but they kill us with shipping. A friend in Oz just built the exact same CNC router as me - mine cost 3x what his did and things imported into Oz aren't cheap.But, I digress... time to go hunting. I did notice, going to 50MHz really pushes the price up on the UK eBay - 20-40MHz can be had for peanuts, but when you hit 50, you are looking at 200+ quid. Assume I know nothing - which isn't hard, I do - what does 50MHz give me over 40MHz (and for the comedians that are tempted to say '10MHz', I thank you in advance!).

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 04:02:53 am
content: Quote from: LEDAero on November 24, 2014, 03:36:18 amLooks like a tough situation. First even though a stand alone scope is preferable, a USB scope is preferable to no oscilloscope.The Hantek 6022BE is what I would pick, mainly because on the forum there is software that works OK (on a Windows machine). You would need a Windows PC of some sort to get it to go. The scope has limitations and searching the forum for it will let you know what those are. They sell for about 75.00CDN close to 60.00USD on ebay. I suspect you could get one of those. I have one of these and I do use it (mainly for documentary purposes).Anything you do get that is USB will be light and easy to ship. Pretty much everything will also require windows.Good luck and I hope you can get what you need.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 04:11:45 am
content: Forum link for Hantek-6022BEhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-6022be-20mhz-usb-dso/

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 04:18:29 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 24, 2014, 04:02:53 amNow you're just trying to blow up my PC because I took the pissI've just spent some time going through all the offerings on UK eBay and the other thing that stands out is the weight. Packing it to survive being thrown about is another - I think the only easy way is to wait for one of my children to visit and they can bring it as hand luggage.Until that time, I guess I will have to get something PC-ish. I have a tiny little Shuttle PC on my workbench that I use for streaming g-code to my router - I can easily use that for an oscilloscope, that is where I work, after all. Using a plug-in USB card means I could save any potentially damaging ground-loops - I wonder if there are any onto-isolated PCI bus cards? Have to do more digging.Thanks for the helpful advice

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 04:29:20 am
content: Optically isolated USB will probably cost more than that scope. It really depends on how you are using it.Scopes are all grounded, I don't do anything special with mine. I do have stand alone scopes and 30 years ago I would have loved one of these USB scopes. I rarely look at anything over 60 volts and when I do I always follow the rules.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 06:57:46 am
content: And thinking (actually thinking, not drooling over shiny toys) gets me to the place where 95% of everything I do is under 30V DC.So, with that being the case and with a host of hackable Hantek scopes beckoning, I have the problem of knowing what to buy.If, as we have seen, the 60MHz models can all be hacked to 200MHz, it is a no-brainer to buy in at that end of the market. But... DSO or MSO? I don't have a clue.As I can get a DSO5072P for $200, it seems like that is the best price:performance for a n00b that doesn't yet know what he's going to do with his oscilloscope...

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 07:07:47 am
content: @ $200 that is hard to beat.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-tekway-dso-hack-get-200mhz-bw-for-free/There is some reverse engineering going on the AWGhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hdg2002b-awg-firmware-reverse-engineering/which by the looks of things share a lot of hardware with the DSO5072Phttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-hdg2002b-awg-5mhz-or-100mhz-let's-see!/Edit: but the Rigol is better overall, but if you want cheap it doesn't get cheaper unless it's used.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 07:33:32 am
content: Here is another toy.Buy one of thesehttp://www.ebay.ca/itm/CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-EEPROM-AX-/141214164581?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20e1052665Put this Software on it.http://sigrok.org/wiki/Main_Pagehttp://sigrok.org/wiki/Lcsoft_Mini_BoardIt will give you a tool for protocol decoding. It's not a logic analyzer but has many of the functions. The electronics are a clone of a famous device, but with this software (free) you can be nice and legal. It would need a box of some sort. There are more expensive variants in a box but check the Sigrok supported section for details on that.A set of test clips and your under 15 bucks.http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Test-Hook-Clips-For-Logic-Analyzer-USB-Saleae-24M-24MHz-8CH-10-Way-Best-/181561947679?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a45ef761f

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 10:53:46 am
content: Thanks, I'll give it a go. What's the 'famous device' it's a clone of?

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2014, 08:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: LEDAero on November 24, 2014, 10:53:46 amIt's easy enough to figure out just follow the hardware link on sigrokhttp://sigrok.org/wiki/Lcsoft_Mini_Board.Most professionals are not a big fan of clones that utilize OEM software. I'm no exception, designers put a great deal of hard work into a product and expect profit. Clones eat into that. What I like about Sigrok is that it allows old OEM gear and inexpensive clones to be used in a way that is not "stealing". It's not perfect but seems to be growing, I play with it for fun and hope it continues to be developed.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2014, 03:12:33 am
content: Everything is a clone - every vacuum cleaner is a clone of an Electrolux, every refrigerator is a clone of a Frigidaire, every Mercedes is a clone of a Ford. Phones, PCs, TVs... everything we make is built on the bones of the previous device.That's where innovation comes from.But... exactly copying and selling as if it was the same exact thing is just stealing. If I were to make an exact copy of a chair that was designed by some big name and flog them for $500 each, that's stealing, but if I see a design and make my own and improve it and give it a different finish or make it from a different material, that's progressLook to the home audio market for home-built amplifier makers exactly copying NAIM, Quad, etc. Same as it ever was...Personally, I look at Saleae's prices and think that, just like amplifier makers, they are ripe for the plucking - a component that has a manufacturing cost of $10-20 selling for $500... they are the authors of their own misfortune.I make stuff from wood, sometimes it has electronics in it. Mostly my constituent parts cost $10-50. They sell for anything from $200 to $1200, and more for custom work. If someone came along and copied my design exactly and sold it for half what I charged, I would be pissed off, but wouldn't stop designing - I would just design something better and try and make it innovative enough that the next time they came to copy it, it wasn't so easy or make it open source, invite the opposition to help themselves to my design, but make it better, so my customers continue to buy from me because it is better quality.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2014, 04:14:09 am
content: Dave has a review of a Saleae, it's worth a look. To be honest I don't call it a logic analyzer it's missing a couple bits.That aside when it comes to copying hardware most designers grab bit's from this and that. There are only so many ways to make things in electronics so when you do a minimal design it's easy to copy. The software is another story, electronics design is often about programming skills. That can be in firmware or PC software. I am from the school that believes software piracy is bad. I also believe Saleae should have protected their products to a greater degree in the design phase.That aside, I do love woodworking, I have a basic shop and it's great for relaxing. I'm what you would probably call a scrap builder. Picking up materials wherever and making stuff (garbage wood).

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2014, 12:07:21 pm
content: That's not garbage wood, that's 'found artwork'I occasionally scavenge when I need a piece that's been weathered, although the weather here means that if I want something to look old and grey, I just need to leave it out in the sun and rain for a few weeks.And while it's great to delve into yet another field of knowledge, I need to pull back and get some focus. Right now I am juggling installing a new CNC production office, continuing with new designs, slowly getting my new 3D printer design more polished, finalising writing my IoT app (which means learning yet ANOTHER programming toolkit), sorting out a new PCB design for my Dad's newest iteration of his autopilot, trying to hire an EE to design a Rev3.0 SMD-based board that will be cheaper to make, easier to package and more reliable...And now I have to make dinner. So, thanks for the help and I'll catch you later.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2014, 09:32:01 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 24, 2014, 07:33:32 amWell, I've got one of those, but not having much luck making it do anything. That software just won't compile on Mac OS - I've spent 5-6 hours going through compiling, debugging, recompiling, more debugging, loading pre-requisites, hacking, but it just don't want to go...I guess I will try the windows version in a VM and see what it looks like.