Budget to buy equipment for low volume (100-1000 pcs boards) assembly - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 05:13:59 am
content: HiAfter reading the thread about the tvm920 pick and place machine I got interested in figuring out how much it could cost to buy a set of equipment for a low volume Pena lab and what is a good equipment choice.I assume the main three components needed are pick and place machine, the oven and a solder paste (stencil?) printer.Let's say around $10K budget - what are the best options?For the stencil printer - are there any options to go without stencils? Is there a printer-type machine to put the solder paste directly just according to the gerber files? Ordering stencils is costly and takes time.Maybe someone is already using a "garage pcba" equipment and will want to share his experience...Maybe $10K is not enough and there are some well justified reasons to spend more ($15K ? $20K?) for a much better equipment ? That's interesting, too.Thanks!

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 07:29:45 am
content: I have no experience with small pick and place equipment, however, I just ran across this company that turns stencils around over night.https://www.oshstencils.com/#And the owner was interviewed recently on the Amp Hour:http://theamphour.com/320-an-interview-with-brent-of-oshstencils/PEACE===>T

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 09:34:48 am
content: I have considered it and at least for me I decided that 10k€ would bring more problems then it would solve. I'd say 25k€ is a minimum if you want it to bring you any advantage rather than being a gimmick.

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 11:09:12 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on January 02, 2017, 09:34:48 amThanks for your opinion. Could you point to particular set of equipment for 25K euro that you have in mind?Thanks !

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 11:22:41 am
content: Quote from: dimbmw on January 02, 2017, 05:13:59 amIf your components are not smaller than 0603 and 1.27mm pin pitch ICs, then it's possible to use a machine which will squeeze the paste on individual pins (PnP machine may have this capability besides placing components). Otherwise no, you'll need to use stencils. Most of the Chinese PCB services offer stencils too, so it won't take any additional time. Also don't even bother with polyamide stencils, they suck, especially if you need to make significant amount of boards and use fine pin pitch components.

author: technotronix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:21:30 pm
content: I don't have much experience about "garage pcba" equipment. But I think $10k won't give you a quality product.

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 06:05:48 pm
content: Quote from: technotronix on January 03, 2017, 01:21:30 pmHow about the Neoden 4 ? Or the TVM920 ? Aren't they good enough?If I double the budget, can I get anything significantly better? Can you give any particular recommendations on maker/models of equipment? I is actually a second post stating that $10K is not enough, but the question is how much is needed to get a good enough equipment and what this equipment is remains unanswered...Thanks.PS "garage pcba" was just a figure of speech, it means just a compact set of equipment without a mile long conveyor belt etc...

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 08:56:35 pm
content: I haven't exactly gone to the point where I have a definite list. There is a very long thread on the Neoden 4 here on the forum. It sums up something like this: decent machine, the software is not quite there yet. It's one of the units I would put on a list, though. The forum also has a "SmallSMT" thread, a German(ish?) outfit that seems to be building a decent machine, possibly with western level SW support that doesn't seem all that more expensive than the Neoden 4.My suggestion to beef up your budget is nicely illustrated by the Neoden 4: 10k$ will get you that machine, but then you need feeders, an oven and possibly/probably a screen printer of some sort. When all is said and done, I assume you'll be out of 25k or so for a setup that doesn't have you cooking your boards in a pizza oven and have you apply paste with a credit card...

author: richardlawson1489
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 07:29:46 am
content: Are you looking for "garage pcba" equipment for Gaming purpose?

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 10:13:04 am
content: TVM920 + say 60 feeders inc shipping = 12kdedicated PC 1kstencil printer inc shipping = 0.7ksmall reflow oven 4kdecent inspection station 4krework and soldering facilities JBC 5kparts and reel stock 3k30kORTVM802B 4.5k shippeddedicated PC 0.5small stencil printer inc shipping = 0.4kvery small reflow oven 1kinspection station 1krework and soldering facilities 2kparts and reel stock 1k= 11k

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 06:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: richardlawson1489 on January 04, 2017, 07:29:46 amI am not that rich to buy $20K toys ... except maybe carsLOLThis is for my company, it is a small business and we order PCBA somewhere, but for small lots (100-200-300) ordering somewhere is expensive, so thinking of buying my own set of equipment.

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 06:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: glenenglish on January 04, 2017, 10:13:04 amThanks! Could you please recommend some particular make/models for the stencil printer and the reflow Owen?Also what is a decent inspection station for $4K ? Something automated? Could you suggest the p/n ?PS I like TVM-920, however I really like the conveyor pcb feeder on the neoden 4, so leaning more to that one. Maybe I am wrong (as usual - lol)

author: jedas
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 04:15:15 pm
content: I'm trying to grab the similar setup. So far I've settled on TVM920, stencil printer from the same company for ~400 USD.The oven is unanswered question for me. Should I buy crappy T962 and mod it? They don't seem to be any better than home brewed solutions. Or should I get conveyor type, T960? I can't find any useful reviews of this machine. It requires more electrical power and space, but does it give advantage in the soldering quality? I'm sure it has much capacity in boards/hour, but in small volumes it's not the main issue i guess. Or is it? I do like fumes extraction in that machine, because you need to address this at some point.It would be so easy to purchase all machines from one manufacturer. I hope to find answers to these questions soon. Maybe someone could comment on conveyor vs drawer type ovens. I'm hoping to get this stuff in ~12k + shipping (700ish USD).

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 09:03:28 pm
content: Quote from: jedas on January 05, 2017, 04:15:15 pmI like the conveyor type. Or Pizza- typeI think I will go with that one.Are you considering any inspection machine?By the way, what were your reasons to choose tvm920 over neoden 4 ?

author: jedas
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 09:43:52 pm
content: QuoteI'm not expecting to get automated inspection system or something like that. Not even sure how much do they cost. But I should get microscope at some point. I'll do it after I get SMT line working. It should quickly repay itself, right?My decision is based only by reading this forum. TVM920 pros from my point of view:- Standard Yamaha feeders. I have never worked with feeders, but I suppose they can be source of the problem, and it's more likely it will happen on N4.- 56 feeder slots vs 48. My projects are not that big, and parts are reused often. With 56 slots, I hope to have all my parts in there, without need to change it.Cons:- TVM920 weights ~150 kg, while N4 is only 90 kg. It will be really difficult to move it around. I might need to move it up/downstairs, it will be really pain in the.. back. I guess you need at least 4 people to move it. On the other hand, mass of the machine will give a stability, so it could be in pros section too.- It will require external air compressor.I would like to find out how it copes with packages like LQFP with 0.5 mm spacing. I have many of those, and it would be really nice to get them placed without troubles.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 10:14:12 pm
content: HmmTVM920 is not really in the same class for comparison as the Neoden 4By the time you have purchased a full feeder set for the TVM920 and shipped the Mo...Fu..., it will be 2x the price.The drag feeders are problematic but not a big deal for small runs. If uyou want large numbers of placements the Cl feeders will save alot of stop-starting.0.5mm no problem for the TVM...nor the neoden I suspect.as for ovens, I cant advise with any rubber on the road, someone else should. I have a small vapor phase system.However, QIHe will sell you a TVM920, decent stencil printer and oven and feeders and the consolidated freight will save some money. That's what Pete down under did........ dont forget to buy a feeder trolley ($170) or twoTVM920 has a much more sophisticated software package (OpenPNP).Neoden4 users seem happy with the Neoden 4 software...... as I said, a different class 2x the price shipped and and feeders and with feeder cartsif you are going to use drag feeders, Try TVM802B or Small SMT machine I suggest......

author: cmantunes
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 03:41:58 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on January 05, 2017, 10:14:12 pmWhich one do you consider in a higher (better) class? It's not obvious to me from your write up.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 05:02:20 am
content: Well, Neoden4 is about 6700 inc all feeders...maybe 650 freight = 7350TVM920 is 6600 approx, plus say 60 feeders average $60 + feeder trolley = 10600+ freight maybe 2000 for machine and all those feeders (feeders are BIG to ship) = 12600 approxso almost 2 x the money to spend

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 06:24:21 am
content: Quote from: cmantunes on January 06, 2017, 03:41:58 amYes, I did not understand it, too. Also "class" is not just the price paid. Class to me sounds more like quality. For example BMW 1 series class is higher to me than Toyota Camry, even though Camry might be more expensive. I would really appreciate some clarification on "class", as you know, the sweetness of a couple of thousand dollars saved is short lived, but the bitterness of the wrongly chosen pick and place machine will last about 5 years.

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 07:08:01 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on January 06, 2017, 05:02:20 amDo you have the TVM920 machine ?

author: jedas
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 08:04:32 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on January 05, 2017, 10:14:12 pmWhat is the purpose for these trolleys? Is it only for storing feeders or it has some function during the placement process too, like supporting them? Does QIHe sell those?

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 09:09:36 am
content: Got the quote for the TVM920 machine today. The manufacturer is funny, I asked for some more videos of the machine in action, as only vet few are available on YouTube, and she told me that due to trade secrets they'll provide more videos only after I'll buy the machine

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 10:16:02 am
content: HI DimbmwWho did you write with at QiHe ?There are two very different sales peopleOne is Daisy, she is university educated business english speaker, and she is my factory interface . I can get most things, she is very effective. She watches Seinfeld in English.the other is a new women, Grea ? she seems quite 'green' and does not appear to understand the west. I have had little contact with her.The company has a manager with very 5th century ideas, but he understands what is required.A video eh ? really there is not much to see, what are you expecting? If you want SMR-PnP P0rn, go watch an Essemtech Cobra video or a Fuji chipshooter on youtube :-)****the feeder trolley is so you have some where to put feeders when they are not in the machine. They are a must. they have the same two pin interface as the machine. Feeders don't stack by themselves very well .. QiHe sells those also.Yes, I have a TVM920. I will also buy a TVM802. I also have a Yamaha YVL88ii (Philips Emerald)class of machine ? :The Neoden 4 is a good quality 'drag feeder" machine. QiHe TVM920, Charmhigh 930 and smallSMT "3000" all have CL feeders that you must purchase. The CL feeder is a "plug in" cartridge feeder machine. There is night and day in their reliability. (and cost reflects this ~ 55-62 $ per 8mm tape feeder)

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 10:44:41 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on January 06, 2017, 10:16:02 amI was communicating with Grea. The idea that I first have to buy the machine and then they will send me videos entertains me - I actually wanted to see some videos to convince myself that I like this machine enough to buy it, of course prior to buyingThe concerns are pretty usual - if is the quality good enough? With the Chinese machine you never know. Maybe you have some pictures/videos to share? That would be very nice if you could email them to me. Thanks!PS they did not offer me any feeder trolley, will ask them next time.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 05:10:26 pm
content: I too am looking for some pick and place equipment. It's not an immediate requirement but it would be nice to be able to make small runs as and when I require them. Given that you can easily be charged 10 or £15 per board to have it assembled with a pick and place machine once the quantities get higher it's also a massive expense that you could save yourself. I'm wondering if the machines with no feeders are worth considering so you just take down the tape and other containers of components or is that a really bad idea?I found this:http://www.lpkf.com/products/rapid-pcb-prototyping/smd-assembly/smt-assembly/pick-and-place.htm but I'm a bit confused about it as I don't seem to provide much information and are more interested in making routers to produce printed circuit boards.I found this one:http://visionbot.net/ but the contact form does not workThis seems interesting:http://www.liteplacer.com/but will the lack of feeders become a limitation beyond small quantities?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 07:27:20 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 22, 2017, 05:10:26 pmWhat sort of part quantities per board and batch size are you looking at? In the UK ( probably also elsewhere) , prices can vary hugely - I recently had to look for a new assembly place after the one I used for years closed due to the owner retiring. You're always going to be looking at a 1-off cost around £200-300 for stencils and setup, but pricing after that varies a lot, like from 3p to 30p per part placed. More so if you want it in less than 3 weeks.Remember that a pick & place machine is a tool that helps you assemble boards, not a machine you throw parts in one end and get finished product out the other.The recent Chinese machines have certainly dramatically changed the point at which in-house assembly starts to make sense, but you can only go so cheap and still have something useful.Tape feeders for common parts are ABSOLUTELY NOT optional - a machine without them is little more than a toy.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 09:02:02 pm
content: Yes I expect tape feeders are going to be essential ultimately. And pretty stupid not to have them sent everything I buy I try to buy on a reel. My boards don't normally have more than 20 parts although I should budget for 40 lines. I have no idea how to set these machines up but from looking at a few videos of machines it looks like you can set specific packages up in the machine so it already knows how to handle them.I have sometimes been asked to make 10 of an item and when I think of how long it takes me to hand place these I could really do with the machine but a £240 setup charge plus 10 or £15 per board does not make something them out worthwhile. But then looking at larger quantities were even for 100 I can be arsed £15 per board which I think includes a set up that £1500. For that money I don't mind taking the time to set a machine up. Probably like yourself I am aiming to do standard boards. It would just be a case of how many do I assemble at a time. For example at the moment I have a small ward that I have supplied to a number of customers and I keep up to 20 blank PCBs in stock and then configure them as per the customer requirement.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 09:36:36 pm
content: £15 per board sounds a lot. Rememver also that small boards,will be done in panels

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 09:52:45 pm
content: I got a quote from PCB Train (newbury electronics) and they wanted for a board with 20 lines 45 parts £15 per board for £120 (no fixed setup fee)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 11:28:38 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 22, 2017, 09:52:45 pmWhat quantity?PCBTrain are generally expensive, but are one of the few places that offer very small qtys

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2017, 12:30:58 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 22, 2017, 09:36:36 pmMike is correct. Wherever possible, V-groove your panels so that you have a set X & Y step between circuit 1 & circuit 2 & circuit 3 etc. This also speeds up putting them though the infra-red (or vapour phase) reflow oven & (if required) through the wave solderer.You generally get 2 ways to "program" the P&P robot:A/ Using an Excel spreadsheet type arrangement (that most PCB CAD programs will export) where you specify the package footprint, the feeder to pick the part from, the rotation & the X & Y location to be placed on the board.B/ A "manual learning" mode where the P&P robot remembers where you picked the part from & exactly where you placed it (which you should do by using the vision system if you have it).Remember the centre location of the part is important - & the true centre (from each extremity) is often quite different to the true "weight" centre & sometimes some manual programming "juggling" will be required to get certain component types to be picked up & placed exactly as required.Nothing too difficult. Once you have done a couple of different boards, you will have become an "expert".

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2017, 01:13:21 am
content: A decent PCB package will allow pick points to be defined in the part definition, and a list of pick/place data exported along with part type, value etc.

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2017, 07:18:19 am
content: Ened up ordering a tvm920, will see how it works....

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 06:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 22, 2017, 11:28:38 pmSorry 120 not sure why a £ ended up in front of it.Sent from my phone so mind the autocorrect.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 09:48:55 pm
content: DIMBMW,What is the typical complement of components that need to be picked and placed?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2017, 07:29:12 am
content: oh just your usual stuff 0805, 1206 parts capacitors up to 10mm diameter, SO8-TQFP stuffI took a quick look at pcb train again for a board at work and they wanted £1250 for 30 boards making it around £40 per board with 106 parts and maybe 80 lines.But our usual supplier quoted £80 per board fully assembled so £40 to make the PCB's and get the parts it sounds like the prices are consistent.