Larger Photo of Rigol MSO - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 04:22:46 am
content: We've seen other photos of this, but this might be the largest/best image of it yet?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/plans-for-mixed-signal-of-rigol-ds20004000/(click to enlarge)

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 04:28:43 am
content: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drigol%2Bmso4000%26start%3D20%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26biw%3D1200%26bih%3D1447&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&u=http://cn.rigol.com/prodserv/DS4000/&usg=ALkJrhixiLd6yLeII95yvVgCu7Hb6fKWbg100MHz4 analog channels16 digital channels4GSa/s Analog channels 4GSa / s1GSa/s Digital channels 1GSa / s140Mpts Analog channel 140MptsDigital channels max 28M PointAnalog channels 110,000 wfms / sDigital channel 85,000 wfms / s29,224 = $4,764 (USD) (based on July 30, 2013 conversion at xe.com)more models and pricing:http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drigol%2Bmso4000%26start%3D20%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26biw%3D1200%26bih%3D1447&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&u=http://cn.rigol.com/prodserv/DS4000/property/&usg=ALkJrhicXU4kpiVECPETZDy-MqdryeA8LQRigol MSOs:MSO4054MSO4052MSO4034MSO4032MSO4024MSO4022MSO4014MSO4012- nice layout on their web site including pricing for all their scopesNotice that on Rigol's site in China a 2072 sells for 6800 Yuan which is about $1109 USD at the current exchange rate.$1109 x ~75% = $839 (what a 2072 sells for at "list price" in the US)So maybe $4764 (for a 100MHz 4+16 MSO4000) in China equates to a sell price in the US of about $3600.When you add in the VGA/LAN option on an Agilent MSOX2014A (a 100MHz 4 + 8 MSO) you get about $3400.(Some clever product marketing manager at Rigol is training his sales team and channel partners to say "no, this model isn't really $200 more than Agilent's comparable model because we give you twice as many digital channels - so ours is a better deal.")Looks like Rigol is saying to Agilent "We are a good competitor; we don't need to compete with you on price; we can have comparable or slightly higher prices and still win." "And by the way, at the entry level we will take all the customers because at the upper reaches of the low end we will compete very hard on price, in addition to offering more true low end models."(A Rigol 2072-S might wind up selling for about $1082 in the US; along side the $839 2072.)http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drigol%2Bmso4000%26start%3D20%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26biw%3D1200%26bih%3D1447&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&u=http://cn.rigol.com/prodserv/186/&usg=ALkJrhio17krbxsiAOrlbqdCKvHGtzSJOQ- Check out the built in 25MHz signal source with Arb.If Agilent is making their sales numbers they might let their "buy one get one free" promotion expire, but I'm betting that the desire to make 4th quarter numbers will not only extend the sales promotion, it might result in new bundled offerings that will encourage customers with better pricing. The only thing worse than losing sales is losing market share. Losing market share not only erodes revenue, it can erode profitability even more. Or maybe Agilent will stand pat and signal "detente". Might depend on whether Agilent thinks the market size is growing, staying flat, or shrinking. If they think it is growing sufficiently they might be content to let Rigol have their share, or not. And where o where is Tektronix?---Post Script,The pricing converted via the exchange rate and the "75% factor" is just an initial "guestimate" and is subject to further review. For example, the 4014 on the Rigol web site in China shows a price of 23,800. Converted to USD that is about $3880. On Rigol's US web site a 4014 sells for $2399. Instead of a 25% delta, the 4014 reflects a delta of about 38%, so maybe Rigol's US price on the MSO4014 could be as low as $2945. Either way, Rigol looks to be in a position to compete on either specs or price or both.One more pricing look-see: The DS6104 goes for 83,000 in China. At the current exchange rate that works out to be about $13,530. On Rigol's US web site the DS6104 sells for $9200. That is about a delta of 32%.Initial conclusion: Different models have different US to China conversion percentages, probably due to a combination of variations in both underlying costs and competitive pricing considerations. Of course, Rigol has to factor in the cost of shipping to overseas markets.For what it's worth, the DS1102E sells in the US for about 49% of the price in China; $399 vs. $815 based on Rigol's US and China web sites and based on the current exchange rate; on the other hand the DS1074B sells for $946 in China and $945 in the US. (Maybe the site in China has a typo?)For whatever reasons, when it's all said and done, Rigol's prices in China appear to be generally about 25-38% higher than in the U.S. Good for U.S. customers, challenging for competitors in the US market, and perhaps difficult for customers in China - at least for the time being.It would appear that from both a technology and a business standpoint, Rigol has figured out how to compete very well and if they can keep winning new customers and keep customers happy with good product reliablity and good service they should be very well positioned to introduce and sell more products. When you look at the new S models (and the 8 new MSO models) it is clear they are leveraging their ability to share platforms, extend platforms, and re-package/integrate products. I'm sure Agilent is saying that selling into the low end is one thing but getting into the mid-market and enterprise market is another but look at what happened to the computer business and especially the PC business. IBM moved out to higher ground, and sold their PC business (Lenovo) to a buyer in China. And anyone who thought that computers could only be sold face to face long ago had to face the learnings of Dell, Compaq, and HP. Test equipment looks a lot more like a bunch of products than a system or enterprise-class software that requires a face to face sales person. Agilent did great with it's latest scopes but it might need to find a way to change the game in a more profound manner. Meanwhile the enthusiast and solo pro market segments (and pretty much all test equipment customers) are the beneficiaries of a lot of great products coming from the ensuing competition.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 03:12:59 pm
content: I can tell you, as a Chinese person that came to America 20 years ago, that these things in China are not cheap. Sure, I can get 1,000 resistors for what, $0.5 USD, but a Rigol scope is considerably more expensive in China than it is here in the US. Just go to taobao.com. Computers are no different. A Lenovo ThinkPad X1 carbon retails for about $300 more than in the US. In the end, it just comes down to the target country. I feel that Rigol has mainly moved into the US market, and is trying to go higher up the spectrum, edging out Agilent and Tektronix while their at it.

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 07:25:38 pm
content: Your comparison to the Agilent isn't fair - for example the MSOX2000 can't decode on the digital channels. We don't know if the Rigol can. We also have no clue of US availability for the new S version of the 2000 or the MSO version of the 4000.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 11:39:11 pm
content: Quote from: grego on July 31, 2013, 07:25:38 pmGreg, I'm not sure if comparing the two scopes is "fair" but it would seem that given their overall specs, features, and apparent pricing these models from Agilent and Rigol are going to compete with each other for the attention of many of the same buyers.It's interesting that the MSOX2000 can't decode on the digital channels; are you sure? I don't get why but if you say so I'll believe you. Anyone here know if the MSOX3000 can decode on the digital channels? How about any other makes/models of MSOs - anyone have a built-in LA that can or can't decode?Seems like decoding on the digital channels would be a very likely (most likely?) place to decode.I'm betting that Agilent and Rigol will add decoding to digital channels if they haven't already.I agree that we don't know when Rigol's scopes will show up in the U.S. I'm betting it will be Q413 or maybe sooner. Maybe Rigol is just trying to "freeze" the market but I think they have shown such strong engineering prowess that they can and will deliver a very impressive MSO, and I bet Rigol's progress will stimulate Agilent to respond with more great offerings. I think we are lucky to have Agilent and Rigol doing their magic - and I think it would be great if Tektronix would introduce some new products. EF

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 11:52:06 pm
content: My point was that the Rigol is more compared to the 3000 series Agilent than the 2000, although really it kind of lands in between them.Bottom line is more competition is always good (for the consumer) so I don't think anyone will complain.Now if Rigol would only add search to their deep memory...

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 12:14:42 am
content: Quote from: grego on July 31, 2013, 11:52:06 pmUnderstand and agreed.There is a hifi/head-phone site where guys hold headphone/shootout meets in various cities. We need someone to hold a Agilent 2000/3000 and Rigol 2000/4000 meetMaybe when the Rigol MSO4000 starts shipping in the US......

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 10:09:22 am
content: Glad Agilent marketing did a good job into convincing you that waveform update rate is the most important spec in an MSO.

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 01:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: alm on August 01, 2013, 10:09:22 amWhat he said.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2013, 04:28:50 pm
content: Hah. We should hold a national Test Equipment fair. That would be amazing.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2013, 05:02:07 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on August 02, 2013, 01:55:08 amWhat you saidSeriously, I think you make a good point about more waveforms per second - definitely a value in hunting for glitches. I think what we are seeing is that as digital technology pushes the boundaries of what scopes can do we will in turn see users selecting scopes for different uses and reasons. It's possible that for a while each of the popular scope manufacturers can capture their own sufficient share of the market by focusing on specific use case segments. I think you give a good example with how the race for waveforms per second (and presumably memory) are likely to be valuable in addressing the FPGA market.My guess is that when it's all said and done it will be like most technology platform markets - one dominant winner (the Gorilla in Geoffrey Moore/Crossing the Chasm/Inside the Tornado terms), and several scope/TE manufacturers with smaller but still notable market share.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2013, 05:38:51 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on July 31, 2013, 11:39:11 pmHey Greg, as my wife will tell you, I don't say I'm wrong real often- but that's just 'cause I'm usually right, but I don't mind saying you were right.Seriously, you were right - the Agilent MSOX2000 series does not serial decode on the digital channels (the Agilent MSOX3000 DOES serial decode on the digital channels). Further, despite my surprise that the MSOX doesn't support serial decoding on the digital channels and despite my confidence that worst case Agilent would support serial decoding on the MSOX2000 digital channels at some point in the future, from what I understand it looks like that it isn't in the cards unless Agilent pretty notably changes the 2000 hardware configuration - and I think such a hardware configuration change would be big enough to warrant a new model #. (The 2000 DOES support serial decoding on the 2/4 analog channels - as long as the particular protocol you are decoding can be decoded on 2 or 4 channels; some protocols might need the 3-4 channels, and if you need serial decoding on more than 4 channels, then it is time for a MSOX3000.)So, if someone wants serial decoding on the digital channels of an Agilent MSOX the 3000 appears to be the "entry" series to consider.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2013, 06:12:24 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on August 02, 2013, 05:02:07 amMissing a glitch could potentially cost you big $$$$ in time, which of course = money. Sometimes a lot more than the cost of the scope itself.QuoteThat's the thing, until Agilent came along, no one was innovating in the waveform update rate area, esp at the low end. And then BAM, Agilent give you 50K/sec for just over $1K and made people think, oh yeah, that's kinda important. That pushed all the other makers to follow suit, and they had a key marketing point for almost two years until the others caught up.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2013, 08:40:47 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on July 31, 2013, 11:39:11 pmYeah, can't really call it LA if it are just logic channels.For my scope (Hameg) they have a cheaper license key (-33%) to decode (I2C, SPI, UART/RS-232) on analogue channels only.But obviously when you have the logic probe you buy decoding on the logic channels.