SSD - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: IvoS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 01:00:04 am
content: I have SSD that just sh*t the bed. It was working fine for 10 months, one day, out of the blue, the PC failed to boot. It is under warranty, I am sending it back to manufacturer for free replacement. They will probably hook it up trying to revive it and investigate what happened to it. As you can imagine, there is a lot of private data on that disk I want no one to read.Question #1: What are the chances of reading the "encrypted" content on win7? Are there any ways (which I believe must exist for FBI-CIA) to decrypt this SSD to someone like its manufacturer?Question # 2: While the SSD can't be operated, is there a way to harm the SSD without opening it (warranty seal) to the possible worse extent making sure nobody can ever extract any data out of it? If yes, how?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 01:02:22 am
content: Quote from: IvoS on February 08, 2013, 01:00:04 amMany ways, for different definitions of "nobody" and "ever". I'd say it's already at this point. Nobody is going to read the bare chips. Not much you can do without voiding the warranty.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 01:15:32 am
content: The first thing is can you read the drive in another PC or boot of a Linux on a USB stick and see if the drive can be read?http://unetbootin.sourceforge.netis a utility that can easily make a bootable Linux on a SUB memory stick.What encrypted content are you talking about? Did you encrypt the disk, or are you talking about something else?Running Spinrite on Level 1 (grc.com) sometimes works as if the problem sectors are successfully read after many attempts, the SSD will automatically replace the crook sector with a good one, and the drive will behave normally again.

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 02:02:12 am
content: The manufacturer will perform a simple go or no-go test on the drive. They have no interest what is on the drive. The testing they perform is lo level testing. If the drive is encrypted, that will stop 99% of people from attempting to discover what files are on it.If your pc bios ant see the drive it has failed completely and you have nothing to worry about.Regards

author: houdini
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 02:05:09 am
content: a few extra volts on the pins would do something. Start at the mains and work up?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 03:04:05 am
content: If you had a swap partition or file on the SSD, don't. Swap would quickly use up the limited number of write cycles.If your encryption is any good, destroy the key and the data would be essentially unrecoverable.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 03:38:26 am
content: I gather that your intent is not to recover data yourself, but to make sure no one else can.It's a valid concern, even with a so-called encrypted drive. Given that it's Windows 7 (almost certainly full of government-mandated backdoors) and the drive itself probably has similar backdoors.But it's easy enough. Regardless of what kind of interface the device has (SATA, IDE, etc) just electrically destroy the interface chips. A power supply set to (say) 50V, with a current limiting series resister so the SSD device isn't visibly blown up... say 4K7, half watt. Then apply the voltage between pin pairs, multiple permutations.Another possibility is to give the entire device a quick blast in a microwave oven. But you risk major arcing, which would produce visible damage and void your warranty.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 05:25:39 am
content: 1. If you used full disk encryption then it's basically impossible if they don't know the keys (and they are not going to waste time trying to crack them.)2. ESD could do something, but I'd advise against this if I were you; the manufacturers do do failure analysis, and finding unusual damage could void your warranty.Incidentally, what make and model was it?

author: jaqie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 06:25:06 am
content: amyk has the right of it, mostly.Make a choice, warranty replacement or data security, which do you value more?if it's data security, take a shotgun to the drive, and done.if it's warranty replacement, send the drive in and done.anything else is either committing fraud (intentionally damaging the drive before sending it in for replacement) or worthless and useless... except maybe more inventive ways of destroying the drive chips!

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 06:42:57 am
content: Quote from: IvoS on February 08, 2013, 01:00:04 amIf you assume the flash chips are intact enough that someone with intent could recover much of the encrypted data, there are a few possibilities. There a minuscule chance that the NSA or other shadowy organization can decrypt AES significantly more easily than guessing your password. There is certainly a possibility that MS has deliberately left a backdoor in bitlocker, but I would estimate that to be a fairly remote possibility. There is also the chance they have accidentally left a back door (i.e., bug) that the NSA may or may not know about yet. I think this is the most likely possibility, but even then I would judge the probability that such a bug exists, that the NSA knows about it, and that it is effective in your scenario is not that great. If you are really that paranoid about it, eat the cost and destroy the drive.The most likely way someone could get your data off the drive is to guess a week password or that they could recover it by a tried and true technique like physical intimidation.QuoteThe SSD manufacturer may be more forgiving than me, but if you intentionally damage the hardware I wouldn't honor the warranty even if you claimed it was already broken. You should just decide whether the money or protecting against this potential privacy compromise is more important. As a practical matter, there is no way you are going to reliably destroy the data on the flash chips without obvious physical destruction. The correct solution here is full disk encryption, which you have already done.

author: notsob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 07:01:27 am
content: How about this.As you are returning the SSD for a warranty replacement I would expect them to do a go/no go test before they ship out a new one.Advise them that the SSD has commercially sensitive data on it and you would like it returned after they are happy that it is dead, so that you can destroy it.Worth a try (they may even destroy it for you)

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 07:54:29 am
content: if these data are sooo sensitive at your eyes, then it is worth for you to buy a new ssd drive, and keep this one secret !that's my point.if you returns it, I'm almost sure somebody can decrypt it, if "they" think it's worth it.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 08:43:38 am
content: There have been quite many discussions around the world regarding problems that law enforcement has with encrypted disks. I think US government may want to delegalize full disk encryption, because it's the case where they may have all the warrants of the world, and still - they don't have any means of forcing you to decode it for them. Before that, if they had warrant they could bust a safe, jimmy the door, break into a car etc. But they cannot do much against FDE, maybe short of torturing that out of you (ok, I know that US government doesn't refrain from torture - check yourself on wikileaks). But we are talking about civilised worldI don't know how about the BitLocker (more familiar with TrueCrypt), but I don't think even NSA, FBI and the like can break the encryption in reasonable time if you set your system properly (eg. not storing swap/page file on unsafe partitions, not having memory dumps enabled, disabling hibernation mode etc.). On the other hand there is quite a thin like between making computer very secure and making it a pain in the ass to use. I actually think that ordinary hard disks are better for sensitive data than flash, because an emergency degausser can be made DIY way. This is to say that HDD is easier to wipe without physical signs than SSD.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 09:37:37 am
content: Quote from: IvoS on February 08, 2013, 01:00:04 amNo. You can destroy the drive controller, but there is no reliable way to get to memory chips themselves. Beside, as noted, that would be fraud.The manufacturer won't make a copy; they might try to read it to see that it can be read, but very unlikely that they would be looking at the data. They might see the directory structure and file names; unless there is something clearly illegal ("drug sales 2012.xls") there, I wouldn't think they'll took more than a casual glimpse. Far more likely, they have a tool that checks the data structure and tells "directory structure ok" without reporting anything about the content. Really, they are no more interested about your data as the post office is about the content of your mail.Your call, trust them and get a new disk under warranty, don't trust and eat the losses.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 09:46:21 am
content: US, UK has refused the entry to the country of people refusing to give away the encryption keys for their laptops in order to check the contents at airports check.Alexander.

author: dr_p
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 11:00:45 am
content: Quote from: JuKu on February 08, 2013, 09:37:37 ampeople have way better things to do. Nobody gives a rat's ass what's on the SSD (except the OP, of course).

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 12:34:07 pm
content: Lots of interesting suggestions, but I just want to remind everybody that Ivos has not yet said that the SSD is faulty. He has only said the PC will not boot.The SSD may be faulty, but it may still work fine. The PC may be faulty. We do not know yet.If it is still working fine, booting from USB Linux as I suggested allows non-encrypted content to be copied from the disk, and the disk can then be thoroughly wiped regardless of whether it is encrypted or not. Now wiping a SSD is not perfect, as data can remain on swapped out memory locations, but someone would have to be exceedingly keen to go to the trouble of making sense of swapped out memory on the chance they may find some useful info.If the data is that sensitive and the SSD has failed, you just destroy the SSD, buy a new one and reload Windows. That is what everyone else with really sensitive data does.It is also worth trying reinstalling Windows from the recovery disk, if there is one. If not, the computer supplier can supply one.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 12:47:33 pm
content: An insulation tester (megger meter) will destroy just about any electronics most certainly an SSD. I have had power plant blown up by an electrician testing the insulation.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 01:15:05 pm
content: yep but after that the warranty may no be applicable anymore ?

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 03:37:44 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--In the past couple of years, every computer I have built, for myself, family, and friends, has a 64 GB SSD for Windows 7 and programs only, and two 1000 GB drives, one of which is used for automatic backups. I also employ a couple of 1000 GB Clickfree external backup drives, at least one of which is always kept in a fireproof safe. I use Truecrypt for sensitive material, and also for programs that tend to set off the virus software.--By building computers from whatever is available cheap at the time (I use Geeks and eBay a lot), I am able to afford to max out the RAM. My best computer at the moment is a run of the mill Geeks "special buy" MSI MB and AMD CPU, I maxed out RAM at 16 GB, and put it all in a giant Whisper case I found in a dumpster, along with a 700 W PS, also found in a dumpster. Also, every computer I build has fans everywhere there is a place for one. I am not a gamer and the total cost of my equipment, since is not cutting edge or latest generation, is very low, but my reliability, and redundancy are very high. I also have a couple of run of the mill Acer Laptops, that I bought broken, and then refurbished, and replaced the HD with, you guessed it a 64 GB SSD. The result is much faster boot, faster operation, more battery time, and less heat. Heat is a major problem with the cheapo Acer's as they have inadequate fan cooling, and a tendency to accumulate "woolly boogers" otherwise known as "dust bunnies" The result of all these hardware precautions is that I flat do not have computer problems.--At the very minimum, I would recommend, using an SSD for OS and Programs only, and a large HD for user files, with some provision for backup. Do not put all of your eggs in one basket.--Lest you think I am wealthy, I should tell you that I am retired and live on a very limited income. Every cent I spend on my Electronics and Computer hobby, comes from recycling, and sales of repaired items and parts. I have EEVBlog to thank for much of the knowledge that has allowed me to do this. So thanks to Dave and all the EEVBees who have posted so much free helpful information."I wear suspenders and a belt. I am a security man all the way"Justin Wilson (The Cajun Cook) 1914 - 2001Best RegardsClear Ether

author: IvoS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 04:34:39 pm
content: To clarify the info. The SSD is damaged in a way that it won't run on different PC (tried it) it won't show up in BIOS either. After pressing the start button the SSD starts to boot for 5 sec and then it shuts down and starts to boot again. It behaves like that on 2 different PCs.I know there are some warranty rules. How about this one. It is SSD with 3 YEAR WARRANTY!! It failed after 10 months. I don't give a rats ass about hurting the SSD even more without visual damage. If it was 2 years and 10 months old, then, I would probably throw it under a steamroller and buy a new one. In this case, I am not willing to just toss it out and make the life easier for its manufacturer.How about this one. What if I zap it with high voltage something like stun gun? Would the internal memory chips survive?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 05:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: IvoS on February 08, 2013, 04:34:39 pmexplain that please. what do you mean ? windows starts to boot and then halts and restarts ?how can you tell the SSD 'boots' a harddisk at least spins up and you should hear the heads move but an SSD is fully silent.

author: IvoS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 05:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 08, 2013, 05:15:19 pmNot windows itself, I meant the first step when you power up the PC when BIOS starts checking the ports etc.... it doesn't go beyond this point. I don't even get the first page on the monitor, it's far away from windows to boot....sorry.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 06:18:34 pm
content: Truecrypt's hidden volume allows you to get around revealing encryption keys. No proof that any encryption is used as PC boots normally.

author: rr100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2013, 07:12:25 pm
content: Almost every post speaks about encryption but it looks the data wasn't "really encrypted" (i.e. truecrypt, bitlocker, etc), otherwise there would no point for the whole discussion, you use encryption just to have no worries in case you lose the device, isn't it?I think "encryption" means here just "stored on SSD in whatever format the manufacturer uses" (which sometimes is indeed encrypted but they know the key). Then yes, in theory they can read your data but no, they don't care about it.

author: IvoS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2013, 01:03:17 am
content: I meant standard WIN7 folder encryption with certificate.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2013, 01:24:57 am
content: By booting up you mean POST (power on self test). Depending on how old your ssd is, it may or may not just be broken down because of power cycles. The bandwidth of my ssd is lower now than that of when I have bought it. This isn't the effect of fragmentation, so don't call me an idiot. You have no choice but to get a new one. Blow the ass out of it and send it back

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2013, 12:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: IvoS on February 08, 2013, 01:00:04 amIf someone wants your data, why bother with cracking your encryption?http://xkcd.com/538/It's highly unlikely that there are any backdoors for FBI/CIA/MOSSAD/whatever in BitLocker or any other somewhat decent FDE solution. At the end of the day they always can get your access to data you store on your hard drives and SSDs, it's only a question how much effort that takes and if it's worthwhile doing that.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2013, 05:25:01 pm
content: Quote from: smashedProton on February 14, 2013, 01:24:57 amEither you have lots of dead sectors now or your drive doesn't support TRIM (Maybe your motherboard even)Anyway OP, is there a chance your SSD is a OCZ Vertex? I'm not surprised they have been dying, still. People on youtube deny OCZ making fail SSDsJust ask electronQuote from: free_electron on August 09, 2012, 05:10:17 pm

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2013, 06:44:28 pm
content: QuoteThe 6 core i7s don't even include "stock coolers". I do agree that water cooling is overkill for normal uses. I just use a $30 Cooler Master heatsink and a quality Delta fan on the side of the case. Force the fan to full bast and a 3.8GHz Turbo on all 6 cores can be held indefinitely even in a hot room.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2013, 09:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: T4P on February 14, 2013, 05:25:01 pm1 thing is missing from that post, shipped units versus failed unit's percentage.i have a 2 year old vertex 2 with 8TB+ read/write data on it. sd life says it will work this way 8 more years, note this is with nand chips with 10k write cycles, i had a program which actually told you the write cycles and how much left but i dont remember its name or where i put it. btw write speads nowehere near the advertised value but half of its due to the amd stupid sata controller and half of the sandforce compressing algorithm

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2013, 06:33:39 am
content: QuoteAh.Being in a country with median temperatures of 30C across the entire year i have seen unnoticed CPUs die early from overheatingWatercooling is meant for people to push the thermal envelopes of their CPU for the overclockers, if you ain't an overclocker you don't get itLike example the stock heatsink with the low-end pentium Gs/775 pentium DCs are so hopeless i see 60C medium load, guess what i saw in prime95? 80CI actually improved the temps with better thermal paste but it's still hopelessWhy do we want a larger cooler? Max junction temp recommended by intel for the IVB parts is only 67.4C (SB was 69.1C but still pretty low( plus IVB have awful thermal resistances from the die to the IHS and on top of that a 3770k actually draws much more than 77W (Something on the order of 100+W) with hyperthreading onI have a pentium dual core E5700 here with a Deepcool Ice Edge Mini FS and it's running about 37C idle (Speedstep is turned off and i'm on 3.3GHz) and 30C intake in a pretty poor airflow case and 62C full loadJust to give you an idea at full load a i7-3770k on the stock 3770k cooler will hit 80C in my weather with optimal thermal paste application (The standard TIM will not spread properly)And watercooling is usually meant for extreme everyday overclocks or great silent cooling (Just not the Corsair H100)Quote from: M. András on February 14, 2013, 09:22:22 pmI thought everyone knows this by now, SATA 3 on AMD and Intel isn't too far apart (Z77 vs A85X) but sandforce's compression is the ones that make it saturate SATA3 but when faced with incompressible data you only have 2/3 max speed, not too bad. Still very fastAnd those failure figures are shipped over failed units. OCZ SSDs consistently have the most failures

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2013, 08:46:09 pm
content: yeah, mostly cos they shipped more units than intel or other manufacturers and the failures will be reported by more peeps you cant get good data on stuffs what sells to low volume to reach enough users to test out bugs etc. im talking about consumer stuffs. more users will torture the devices wider variety of system they will use etc. im not defending them

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 01:02:14 am
content: Quote from: T4P on February 15, 2013, 06:33:39 amA $30 Cooler Master heatsink and a $30 Delta fan (which actually cools the entire system) will easily keep an i7-3930k below 60C full load at 30C ambient. Do realize that in a high end PC, $5 fans are not going to work well enough.Start by disabling any "smart fan" controls and if that greatly lowers temperatures, try tweaking those settings to be more aggressive if you can. (If your motherboard is so basic that it doesn't support adjusting the smart fans, you can try disconnecting the speed control wire on the fans, easily done by using a small screwdriver to release the wire from its connector and taping the loose end. On most PSUs, the only way to disable variable speed voids the warranty so skip that.) If it's still too high, try taking the side panel off the case and directing a fan at it. If it's fixed then, time to add some fans to the side panel.But yeah, if you're looking for the ultimate cooling (for benchmark purposes), watercooling is very good, and R-134a or R-410a is even better.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 08:17:12 am
content: Yeah, i'm aware of "phase" cooling as such, a extreme water cooling loop would rockwith some AFB1212SHEsI am buying a Deepcool Ice Blade Pro for 34SGD (the 30$ hyper212+ is 59$ here) and slapping 2 AFB1212H PWM version on it or maybe changing it for 2 AFB1212SHE down the roadWicked heatsink + wicked pressure optimized fans? Awesome. I have WFB1212Ms here and they already deliver wicked pressureAll that to see how much i can OC a A10-5800k/6800k on air(I'm using G.Skill ARES for my build) Trying to crack 5GHz on air with a not so premium chip (I might as well get a FX-6300 instead but the A10 is still cheaper in terms of boards)You can afford a 3930k being a employee but i can'tAnd anyway, i know damn well the 3770k IVB is faster than a 3930k SB-E and cooler running as well so i wonder when IVB-E is coming out although haswell is probably fasterIn any case i would probably look forward to AMD Kaveri at 3Q/4Q 1-2weeks later richland is coming out (A10-6800k)Looking forward to haswell? I sure am.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 03:53:33 pm
content: The 3770k is not faster than the 3930k. In fact, at this time, only even higher end (and far more expensive) 6 core i7s and Xeons are faster. (It is correct, however, that you get better MFLOPS/$ with the cheaper quad cores.)http://cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 04:24:39 pm
content: Ah, sorry about that. The 3820 will lose to the 3770k i think and the motherboards possibly much cheaperthis is what stumped mehttp://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/551?vs=552But IVB is a terrible overclocker