Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 01:23:47 pm
content: Hi everybody,you might be subscribed to the ST newsletter and took advantage of their "free" shipping promotion in November.I did, and ordered another STLink for my lab.Today I found an invoice from FedEx in my mailbox for import taxes that nearly doubled the amount i paid for the damn STLink.In the EU, the import VAT is calculated from the value of the merchandiseplusthe cost of shipping.Of course i did not pay for shipping, but Fedex set an amount of €36,04 for shipping that I now have to pay taxes for. Plus an administrativer fee.Thanks for the "free" shipping ST!%&$§%you very much! I ended up paying €17 more than if I would have just ordered it from Digikey.So beware before ordering from ST.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 01:39:34 pm
content: Ouch. I really hate how much the courier companies charge for paying the VAT. It's extortionate. If you refuse the delivery, do you still need to pay?However, in future, if ordering from a company outside of the EU, the VAT must be paid at the checkout to avoid this, this is called "DDP". Digi-Key offer this, as do Mouser. Arrow *did* offer it, but I heard they withdrew it at some point, I'm not sure if they still do offer it, but the last time I ordered from them with DDP they totally screwed up the DDP and I ended up with a large bill, which they covered after a lot of arguing back and forth.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 01:55:45 pm
content: That’s strange, FedEx uses the invoice to make customs payment, they cannot add anything extra( customs can)So what you should pay is their administrative fee + Vat of the invoice

author: Shay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 02:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 30, 2022, 01:39:34 pmI have refused the delivery many times when the fees were 1.5x the price the product. They'll call every day, and you'll tell them the same thing, it goes on and on for a few days until they give up, and in 99% of the times, wont return the package to the seller, they would simple destory it or something.After that, you'll be stuck in a gray zone, since the seller wants to refund only after the package will be recieved, but it will either take months, or it wont get there at all.

author: Thunderer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 04:12:26 pm
content: Before buying anything, make sure the Incoterms are well indicated before clicking Place Order. The DDP is the safest (all duties paid), but any other will get you fees beyond your wildest thoughts.So, it is not on ST, it is on the international rules and the shipper.I once purchased from Mikroelektronika (Serbia) while visiting Sweden. DHL delivered as if I was a EU citizen. 2 weeks after, they called me and beg me to pay some fees because they realized that I paid with a canadian credit card, so I wasn't a real EU citizen, and the amount of the invoice was superior to some maximum exemption value. I paid for a simple reason: all deliveries I made during my visit were to my employer, so they sent all invoices to my employer directly (I know, they are stupid, I paid with my personal credit card). If I would have not paid, they would have again and again contacted accounting at my job.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 08:15:42 pm
content: en.ST Terms and Conditions of Sales.pdfQuoteIt would have been nice to put a disclaimer at the bottom something like:"*Free delivery offer over $99 applicable to certain states only, excludes tax, customs and important charges.For more details read terms and conditions."

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 08:22:05 pm
content: I found FedEx being reasonable when calling them about unexpected charges. On some occasions they even talked back to the merchant to sort out shipping charges. FedEx in my experience is much better in this regard then UPS, at least here. And they waved different fees a few times I called them. I guess you could try, though I do understand EU may be a totally different animal.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 09:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 30, 2022, 01:39:34 pmST is a French/Italian company, but they used Mouser for shipping from Texas.Not what you'd expect.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 09:32:18 am
content: If it is a Value Added Tax, just how and how much does shipping add to the value? Seems to me that it adds nothing.Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on December 30, 2022, 01:23:47 pm

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 01:04:36 pm
content: You can do taxes yourselfBut it is deliberately complicated to do so, to deter people and collect more taxesAnd you use a bank statement as a base for tax calculation and pay tax only from the amount you really send

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 01:42:56 pm
content: Quotegreat idea as that means i wont pay tax on 2 jobs i do a year that pay me in pound notes that never get to see my bank account.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 01:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on January 03, 2023, 09:32:18 amHow much value does a part have for a circuit you are testing/building/selling, if it is still sitting in a warehouse on another continent? A bird in the hand....

author: Faranight
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 06:38:33 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on January 03, 2023, 09:32:18 amIt doesn't, but shipping itself is a service, which is taxable by itself. I wondered the same a few years ago i.e. why do we have to pay more, if we ship an object from EU to US and then back. The object is the same as it was before, so how come it now costs more? And an act of simply increasing something's price apparently counts as added value, even without any physical change to the object in question. Yuck.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 06:50:44 am
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on December 30, 2022, 09:50:20 pmCan you name an equivalent eu-based distributor for mouser?

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 07:00:22 am
content: Yeah unfortunately we have to deal with this crap when importing stuff into Europe.None of this is STs fault. It is the local government enforcing import tax and then shipping carriers using it as an excuse to charge more money.This is the reason why i love AliExpress shipping options. It costs a bit extra but they somehow magically get the package into the EU and then send it trough the post from there. As a result there is never any import bullshit.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 09:21:30 am
content: You Europeans are not alone. In Australia, Fedex collects the shipping cost, the GST (ie: VAT) for the government, plus an obscure government import tax, plus another obscure "administration fee" which is not cheap considering the process is all automated by computer. I don't mind paying shipping or the GST, but the rest is price gouging (or in Australian vernacular, a ripoff). DHL is not much better. They hold you to ransom by not releasing the goods until you pay every cent they demand. They do it because they can.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 09:55:10 am
content: Yep, i've had this from DHL as well.Usually on digikey invoices if they get close to the limit.I think what happens is either- They look at the invoice, can't see a shipping cost shown (because it was free) so looks up the shipping price in their system and adds it onto the invoice.Or- They look at the invoice and find there is a shipping price listed, but unknown to them it's just their for reference not something you actually paid separately.They look for the invoice total and the shipping cost and add them together. Likely because their computer system wants a separate goods cost and shipping cost. (Subtracting the shipping cost from the total to get the goods cost is one step too difficult for them to bother with.)It's probably also more complicated by the fact that sometimes goods are shipping on a FEDEX/DHL account, so sometimes an invoice wont show anything related to shipping at all, but it must be added on to get the total shipping cost to comply with the rules, So they look it up and add it on manually. In this situation that is correct, but when they do this procedure to a freeshipping order it's not.It really comes down to a legal question. If you buy something as 'free shipping' what does the law say about it.A) Did you pay the shipping cost as something incorporated into the cost of all the goods you bought. (You could argue the seller will be making their goods more expensive to cover free shipping)OrB) Did the seller just choose to not charge you for shipping. So there was a shipping cost but the seller paid it themselves. In which case the true cost of the shipment is more than what you paid for it.If A then they should NOT be adding it on a 2nd time as that causes you to be double-taxed for part of your shipment.If B then they are correct to add on the true shipping cost to comply with shipping rules that say import tax include shipping costs.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2023, 09:52:13 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 05, 2023, 09:21:30 amYes and no, it is gouging, but you are legally required to pay GST, so there is no way they can release it to you.Most likely its possible to self clear in advance, if you have excess time on your handshttps://www.abf.gov.au/imports/Pages/How-to-import/Import-declarations.aspx

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2023, 10:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 05, 2023, 09:55:10 amDigikey also marks up for foreign destinations (fill a cart in USD to a US address, then do another in USD to a non US address) so "free" shipping is a marketing thing and the prices most certainly are increased to cover the costs.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2023, 11:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on January 06, 2023, 10:05:51 pmYeah, general shipping, but also can include duties, customs clearance, and currency conversions.Example part is 10.20 USD on .com or 15.86 CAD on .ca, roughly a 16% increase in price. Just wildly guessing the average order might be $140, so ~$22 markup.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 12:08:39 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 06, 2023, 11:09:45 pmFor example digikey are not offering DDP terms to Australia unlike say mouser, so clearance and duties/taxes are all paid by the recipient to the courier. Currency conversion is a non-starter too as that cost is paid by the customer (digikey receiving USD). So any markup is for international drama/support and most of all; shipping.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 01:36:37 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on January 05, 2023, 06:50:44 amThe Distrelec group and Farnell are two. (Well, they're technically both headquartered in non-EU Europe, but they both have EU warehouses.)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 01:55:01 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 06, 2023, 10:05:51 pmDefinitely. The question is, when this is done, are you paying for shipping or not.If you are paying for shipping then what part of your payment is for the shipping. This amount is the shipping cost and DHL/Fedex should not be adding their own shipping cost on top since that would be paying for it twice.If you are not paying for shipping then DHL/Fedex have to add the shipping cost in and the only value they have for this is the one in their system for your shipment. So they add that to the total.(Of course this only applies in countries where the law says that items are taxed based on the value including shipping)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 02:50:25 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 07, 2023, 01:55:01 amIf you paid for product(s) with free delivery, there is no defensible way they can "add" imaginary value to the shipment. But if they should it'll be endless rabbit holes of claiming not their fault, no liability, and "too bad as it has been submitted to the abf and its not refundable". Even when 100% their own fault for misrepresenting the value of the packages to the abf.It is the usual problem with the couriers and big business, they have your (expensive) shipment and will make up any random excuses to pull money from you (who remembers redelivery charges?) even if they are outside the law because well they are huge and have lawyers and you are not. Fighting it will end up costing more than their demands, and any "win" will be a no admission of guilt/liability situation that cannot be used as precedent or shared with others....having pushed down this several times before! Auspost are just as bad when it comes to non-standard situations or trying to claim "extra cover" (not insurance, excludes liability for just about everything, almost impossible to claim on, will take you several days filling rounds of duplicate in paper work to their satisfaction).So much easier when shipments in that grey region come through the postal service, and leave the expensive stuff for DDP terms./rant

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 03:03:29 am
content: tl;dr but this thing is made in the EU and you are in the EU ... why are you paying import duty ?Unless... this is a US only promotion in which case this thing will be shipped from either Digikey or Mouser or a US place....Beware of promotions : they are very often region bound.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2023, 03:46:15 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 07, 2023, 02:50:25 amYes, there is.The value of the shipment is the value of the goods plus the value of the shipping (in some countries).But more importantly, the value is usually defined something like "the fair market value"Therefore, if you didn't pay the shipping (free shipping) then you got a discount, but that doesn't effect the value of the shipment.They do it this way because they need to be able to inspect the goods and check if the value is legit.If for example you buy something with a 70% discount (and only paid 30% of the value of the item) the customs value of the shipment is still the full value not the discounted value.If the customs value was the value you paid then it would incentives fake invoices showing a discount to reduce import fees and import customs dept wouldn't be able to know by looking at the item if it was a totally legit discount or a fake discount. So they have the rule that the customs value of a shipped item is the fair market value of the item, not the discounted value. It makes it simple to check if the declared value makes sense just by looking at an item and searching to see how much its normally worth.So, the real question is, is free shipping a discount or did you just pay for the shipping a different way, as part of the value of the items.In which case you didn't get a discount and the fair market value of the item is what you paid and nothing else should be added.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 09:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on January 07, 2023, 12:08:39 amWhy are you saying "currency conversion is a non-starter". On the AUD site don't you pay in AUD? At least thats what I see if I add an item to the cart.I pay in CAD on the CAD site.It looks like the AUD markup is a lot lower, ~6%, so it makes some sense that less services are supplied.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 10:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 09, 2023, 09:55:28 pmThe markup on currency conversion/risk is another variable, but digikey let most (all?) regions pay inUSD(as do Mouser etc). I pointed out the example people can try, by building a cart in the sameUSD, but to different locales. The additional "international" margin on digikey for Australia seems to be a few % just for postage (invoicing appears to be identical to US domestic orders, but there may be an electronic lodgement through the carrier).If you pay CAD on the Canadian site you are probably adding in another few % in their fees. Example:US/USD 242.04CA/USD 242.04CA/CAD 356.88 (266.59 USD)AU/USD 251.76AU/AUD 372.48 (257.55 USD)currency conversions above are live/actual at current transaction rate with reasonable network/broker. No idea why the CAD pricing has such a large difference that doesnotline up with a tax rate [edit, but it was tax as the difference CPT vs DDP].

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 07:53:54 am
content: Be careful when ordering from vendors that offer payment in different currencies: it may affect incoterms! For example, there are/were various countries where Digi-Key ships with DDP incoterms when paying in the local currency, but CPT when paying in USD. In many cases, it also depends on which shipping carrier you choose. Same with Mouser.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 09:33:09 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2023, 07:53:54 amLooks like the Canada example above is digikey changing between CPT and DDP (not as obviously shown as Mouser).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 10:05:24 am
content: What do you mean? I think Digi-Key shows it more prominently than Mouser.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 04:12:17 pm
content: Yep, I've been Fu***d over by fedex buying from PCB way.Way more than double the package value.I hate them nearly as much as DHL. (OK, not as badly)They think they're a branch of governement and can arbitrarily slap on uncalculated random duty and VAT.Not just VAT on the goods but the postage as well. Between EU and UK they are hitting both sender and reciever for VAT on postage.Thats got to be a crime? (But not as criminal as brexit).

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 04:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on January 13, 2023, 04:12:17 pmThey can only release containers of imported stuff once duty is paid. if no accurate invoices or data is avaialble they slap on enough value so it will pass the duty inspectors scrutiny. They are working against time. The duty officrs job is to line the governments pockets.Go growl at your government that wants to milk anything you do. You make money ? tax !. you want to spend money on a car ? tax again! ah, you want to drive it too ? road tax ! Wait , you need fuel ? taaaax ! you have a garage to store it ? taaaaaaaaaaax ! It produces exhaust ... tax ! Let's mkae registration mandatory and issue licence plates : tax !Somewhere in a government back room there are people brainstorming what next to tax. You are collecting the rain that falls on your roof ? tax ! because it means you will use less city water so they lose the tax income. Soon they will make rain illegal.We are evolving to a future where they measure the amoun of oxygen you breath and the co2 (and methane on the other end) you produce. they will also measure the food you eat and the amount of boom-boom you produce. They will tax you according to what you eat and in what quantity. Oh you are sick ? diabetes ? too many sodas. you drank 409 gallon in your lifetime. So we won;t help you. our health system is overloaded and you got it by your own fault. should not have drank that much soda. and all that carbonated stuff ... every time you burped you added more co2 to the environment... here's your tax bill.If the politicians want money they should get a job just like anyone else instead of milking us.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 04:47:32 pm
content: :-+Within the EU VAT law is entirely harmonised and is the same across the EUFree postage from outside the eu never includes customs duty or vat as thd supplier cannot determine in advance what the clearance costs will be. Mouser is very unusual in this ss they do groupage bulk clearance ( is they do not import the orders into the eu seperately) hence they swallow that cost on a total consignment basis which is far betterSince postage /courier is vatable then the Delivery must charge you vat on the goods and any associated services such as delivery otherwise foreign delivery agents would have an unfair advantage over domestic delivery agents who must legally charge vat for their servicesIt’s not complex , just suck it upI have a EORI number which you can get as a person , fedex re Jesse the shipment against that number and invoice me seperateky for duty and it vat after I have already received the shipmentIf you do t have a EORI number they will typically demand advance paymentEORI has nothing to do to vat registration. Which by the way is also available to individuals if you want tk go down that road and you can reclaim thd vatIt’s clear from the replies here that somepeople simply don’t understand vatSadly customs clearance fees are unregulated and I find fedex one of the worse but if you email them they can tell you the typical schedule of customs clearance charges. These Are not mostly levied by fedex but the countries official custom clearance process. FedEx just pass it on.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 05:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 13, 2023, 04:38:12 pmCustoms is as old as julius Caesar !! It’s a fact of lifeTheirs is no evidence to back up 99% of the non sense you write. Health agencies will treat ill people irrespectiveTax is a good things it’s supports education health , infrastructure etc. be happy you clearly have the income to pay it.Either that or li d on a deserted island I’m sure FedEx “ might” find you ( eventually )To add to your BS , there are many ways you can arrange release of goods and post pay duties and or vat. Clearly you have no idea how the system works

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 05:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on January 13, 2023, 04:47:32 pmMouser is far from alone in doing that, because it’snotunknowable. I’m sure it’s anything but trivial to set up, but it is doable. Then it’s shipped precleared so that the carrier does not have to collect any VAT or duty.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 10:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on January 13, 2023, 04:12:17 pm- There is a way to contest the value for royal mail, there may be a similar process for fedex:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1108962/BOR286-English-09-22.pdf- As Madscientist and I have previously noted, you can declare your own value and clear customs yourself, but it may be a fair amount of effort.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 12:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 13, 2023, 05:31:12 pmActually while not that diffult the rules for DDP are quite restrictive and anyway only apply upto €135. After that you are forced to post clear.In order to do what mouser are doing you must have a financial entity registered in the eU hence for small foreign suppliers ddp or mouser style groupage simply isn’t legally possible. In fact the costs are are such that you need a big foreign import activity to justify it ( if you have substantial EU source and supply it doesn’t work )Hence it’s not a catch all solution nor is ddp.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 12:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 13, 2023, 10:29:34 pmThe very best way is to have a tiny trade ( ie I sell a few pcbs to friends ) hence I registered for vat. Since I mainly sell into the uk , I only have vat reclaim activity , every two months the gov sends me a nice bank transfer 7 days after my online vat return , the gov drops the vat into my bank account !!The online vat return takes me 10-15 minutes every 8 weeks easy stuff. I can reclaim all vat against the business costs. ( test gear , lab costs etc )I do this as a sole trader so reporting requirements are easy

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 01:15:45 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on January 13, 2023, 04:12:17 pmYou understand that postage and Courir /shipping is a eu vatable serviceHence vat must be added to the cost where the shipping originated outside the EU by the eu based final carrier , how is this a “ crime “ it’s the EI wide vat lawFedEx are not a branch oh gov they are legally obliged to recover vat end of story no different then when you buy a beer you pay the bar vat and they remit thatSo that’s why vat is added to the shipping costs. It’s fully legal and correctCustom clearance charges however are unregulated and this is certainly an area the EU needs to get involved in , there should be eu wide fixed custom clearance charges for say sub €10000 shipments handles without special clearances procedures

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 04:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on January 14, 2023, 12:53:15 pmCitation needed. I can't find any reference to a €135 threshold, just to a GBP135 threshold on parcels entering the UK. But it doesn't have anything to do with DDP as such.Quote from: MadScientist on January 14, 2023, 12:53:15 pmWhat's the "it" you're talking about here, if not DDP?As I understand it, DDPisthe solution.HowDDP must be handled between country pairs varies (so a seller has to figure this out), but the result is that if done as DDP, the buyer owes nothing and doesn't need to worry about it. If the buyer ends up owing something,then it wasn't DDP.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:19:39 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on January 05, 2023, 07:00:22 amGovernments in the EU must recover vat it’s not “ local gov anything “AliExpress is fine under the DDP limit of 135 euris clearance above that gets pricey depending on the carrierThe only issues is customs “ clearance “ charges that’s currently unregulatedThe Eu is considering raising the DDP LIMIT to €1000, so we’ll see, in addition legal limits to clearance feees should be enacted EU wide in my opinionThere Is nothing magical about Ali or mouser both do groups shipments mouser does it better then AliExpress as they are not limited by the DDP limit whereas AliExpress are