Is it now illegal to resell ANY thermal imager? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 11:08:52 pm
content: I just bought the FLIR One Pro for Android with USB-C connector. When I purchased it, I had to click Accept on something that said under law I couldn't resell it outside of the US, or even to ANOTHER PERSON. The exact text was:QuoteI'm not sure if this is accurate. I think FLIR One Pro has a 9Hz frame-rate, and so it isn't under ITAR or other similar laws, other than the basic export regulation of not being able to sell to banned countries (North Korea, Iran, etc). Even the ones that ARE controlled by ITAR (30Hz thermal cameras), the limit is you can't export it outside of the US without government permission, and are more limited in which countries you are allowed to sell it in.However, if that legal statement on the FLIR website actually IS CORRECT, and it means what I think it means, then that means every person who's selling even non-ITAR (9Hz) thermal imagers on ebay is in violation of US law. I notice the exact language in the legal statement says "They may not be resold, transferred, or otherwise disposed of" ... "to any person other than the authorized ultimate consignee or end-user". The phrases "authorized ultimate consignee" and "end-user" seem to refer to me, the person who bought it, meaning that if I want to get rid of it later on I can't just sell it to somebody on eBay, and if I did that I (and anybody else on eBay who's already doing it) would be violating US law.So basically the only way now to dispose of a thermal imager legally is to throw it in the dumpster (after first smashing it with a hammer to make sure it can't fall into the hands of America's enemies who'd want to use it to harm the US)?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 11:33:43 pm
content: When in doubt, go to the people who provide official guidance on the applicable regulations.In this case, BIShttps://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/export-administration-regulations-earhttps://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/regulations-docs/2338-ccl6-6/file

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:06:48 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 19, 2020, 11:33:43 pmThat's a lot of legalese. Is there an accurate summary of that info somewhere, stating in practical terms what kinds of thermal imagers (if any) can legally be resold? If it isn't legal to resell even 9Hz thermal imagers now, this seems like a huge change in the law that must have been enacted just recently. I've never heard of such heavy restrictions before.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:15:13 am
content: I agree, but sadly that is common where dual use technology is involved.I know there have been some changes to Lepton core export rules but I believe that was more to do with embargo's and sanctions than changes in the rules.My current understanding is that thermal cameras producing an image at <9fps may still be exported from the USA with minimal controls to any country that is not under an embargo for such technology. The cameras can be resold provided the same respect of embargo’s is applied.If you ask me to show that to you in a simple policy document, I cannot, except to refer you to the BIS document already detailed.Fraser

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:25:48 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 20, 2020, 12:15:13 amSo everybody selling a FLIR One on eBay (most of whom say they won't even sell to anybody outside of the US), don't need to worry about getting a visit from the FBI for simply reselling the device?Also, while looking through the document you showed, it seems to indicate that vehicle thermal imagers (like the Cadillac thermal imager, and the FLIR PathFindIR) must legally be electronically locked to the vehicle they are installed in. That's strange, because I know that a lot of people have used those Cadillac thermal imagers as cheap thermal cameras for hobbyist use, indicating that they DO FUNCTION outside of the cars they were installed in. Same thing with the PathFindIR, which I think also function when used outside of the vehicle they are installed in.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 05:44:38 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on March 20, 2020, 12:25:48 amThe rules were quite different when the early Cadillacs (and many other BST such as Argus 2 & 3) were made. At the time *any* ASi was uncontrolled.Major rule changes happened around 2006 at Wassenaar (which the US follow in the EAR) adding general controls, but also permitting both the <9Hz 'decontrol' and also the 'OK if permanently fixed to a vehicle' clause.The ways and means by which a camera was 'sufficiently robustly' limited to 9Hz or 'sufficiently permanently' attached to the vehicle was left to BIS (or whoever in the country of origin) to decide when examining the product for licensing, or not as the case may be.Bill

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 08:30:13 pm
content: Ebay's automated algorithms flag potentially ITAR restricted devices and make you acknowledge a statement before bidding/purchase that you understand the rules and are complying with them. Because framerate is often not specified and is often not explicitly stated in model numbers for thermal cameras (for example, the same camera may come in several framerate variant configurations), I think they just give you the legal blurb for every purchase/sale and don't restrict them on their own. I believe you can still sell restricted items on ebay to other countries, but the burden to have the export documentation is on you, and these reminder's are basically ebay's way of dodging responsibility for it.I've sold a 9Hz camera to a buyer in Canada and had no issues from ebay, customs, or USPS (had a lithium rechargeable battery). If I ever bid on or buy a thermal camera (or an industrial accelerometer, same reason), I have an extra dialog box to acknowledge the rules even as a US citizen in the US buying from a US seller.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 11:07:02 pm
content: I tried to list my Electrophysics 7290A Micronviewer SWIR camera the other day on eBay.All went well until I hit the list button, then a large red warning came up stating that the item was listed on the US Military List that covers controlled technology. The warning stated that I could not sell the unit outside the USA. The item was blocked from being listed on eBay.Basically no matter how I worded the auction title and text, as soon as the manufacturer + model number was entered, it activated the warning and block on listing the item.That innocent looking Electrophysics camera must be more 'dangerous' than I thoughtFraser

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 01:34:01 pm
content: The key part is "without first obtaining approval from the U.S. Government or as otherwise authorized by U.S. law and regulations."

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 03:18:39 pm
content: If you try to sell your camera from UK to UK only, the US should have a say in this. Same reason why I feel okay with keeping my cameras within my own borders.The US regulations need to be relaxed to allow US companies to compete on the global market, it will happen later than earlier.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 03:46:35 pm
content: Quote from: Vipitis on March 23, 2020, 03:18:39 pmThe EU actually has similar rules, as do other nations. there are European manufacturers of thermal cameras that disallow sales to the US for cameras above 9 or 10Hz without special documentation...... even though the US has the same restrictions and the same capability in cameras and even though that caliber of thermal camera is now readily available on the consumer market from a number of international sources.It's one of those tech laws that was put in place out of worry (justifiably or not) and then never updated as the pace of technology marched along. It was only a few years ago that Signal Hound released a new signal analyzer that had to be gimped in hardware/firmware because the realtime analysis bandwidth of the hardware was big enough that it would otherwise be ITAR restricted. This is maybe a $10k USB instrument made of commercially available parts...

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 07:40:17 pm
content: Quote from: Vipitis on March 23, 2020, 03:18:39 pmMy understanding is that if the original licensed export from US included 'restrictions' on end user then at resale you are expected to continue to uphold them.This is a feature in US law, believing that they can administer abroad, and is why the US EAR is not Wassenaar compliant, merely compatible. Compliant Wassenaar assumes unrestricted resale within borders, but also that the destination state will uphold the rules on further export.The complication is the EU, a single customs unit for Wassenaar but containing quite different nations and some not in NATO. I doubt the US have any issues selling in to UK, Germany etc, but add in Bulgaria / Malta / Cyprus and you see the seeds of doubt creep in.Bill

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 07:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on March 23, 2020, 03:46:35 pmYes, over 9Hz will need a license under Wassenaar.It is up to the supplier if they can be bothered to go through the paperwork, and to what level (ie single customer or unlimited quantities). There is however no doubt a license would be granted.Bill

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 05:08:21 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 22, 2020, 11:07:02 pmThen sell it IN the US (don't put it as an item available to world-wide customers). I've seen several of these on eBay for sale, so they don't outright block it. You just can't sell it to an non-US buyer. I think there are settings when you create an eBay product page, that let you limit the auction (or sale) to US buyers only (eBay itself can tell what country you are in, by the source IP address associated with the TCP/IP packets coming from your computer when you connect to their webserver, and thus can block you from buying or bidding on a region-locked sale or auction if you aren't in the country that the seller has chosen to lock the sale or auction to).As for that camera, if I'm not mistaken, that's an SWIR (not thermal) camera. I personally would like to buy one of these, if you are willing to put it on sale for a reasonable price, I'd be willing to buy it, and I live in the US so it would be legal for me to buy it.