Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: John_Cavanaugh
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 08:04:11 pm
content: The Rigol 1000Z series is quite long in the tooth. The Siglent 1000XE series is a bit younger but still not really new.With them both sort of old, any thoughts/predictions when the manufactures release a next generation??I’m looking at pulling the trigger on a new scope but would be kicking myself if a next generation came out in the next 6 months.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 08:14:54 pm
content: I don't think there will be new low-end oscilloscopes out soon. It doesn't make much sense for Rigol to come out with yet another Xilinx Zync based oscilloscope and without something radically new compared to the Xilinx Zync GW-Instek and Siglent don't have a way to get more performance at a low price point.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 08:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: John_Cavanaugh on June 19, 2019, 08:04:11 pmThere will always something just around the corner.Best advise is to focus on your needs and set your 'must haves'andbudget.Then we can advise on a best fit !

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 09:24:05 pm
content: Budget?Requirements for channels, bandwidth?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/is-the-rigol-ds1054z-still-the-best-buy-for-a-cheap-entry-level-oscilloscope/

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 09:40:41 pm
content: Keysight's got one too, and while I think there's one from Rigol coming in the next few years, I definitely think it will be after they finish out their first iteration Phoenix chipset based scopes, with their top end still a few months out. Maybe 2020? Maybe 2021? They know the 1054Z is older and that it's selling because of pricing/hackability rather than feature/performance appeal, and it's not a new design, so I think a new version is probably on the way, but it's common to hear some murmurs when it's only months or a year out, and we've heard nothing yet.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 09:51:49 pm
content: New design, plus the time to work the bugs out, I don't want to be too early in the lifecycle. That would add up to a good year and a half between the two factors and I was not prepared to wait that long, so I went with the Siglent 1104 and so far happy with my choice. Siglent has been very responsive to bug reports on this scope IMO.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 10:35:20 pm
content: Yeah, the brand new models can be a hassle. For many, it is better to wait a bit. There are way too many initial firmware bugs these days. Due to pressure to start shipping, the early customers get to finalize the design (in a way). That's fine, if you don't mind doing it and spending lots of time.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 12:35:09 am
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on June 19, 2019, 09:40:41 pmIs it? What features/performance is the 1054Z missing at this price point now?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 12:50:45 am
content: Quote from: John_Cavanaugh on June 19, 2019, 08:04:11 pmI have not heard anything.It's hard to see what they can add and keep the price the same. Or even if they can whether or not it's worthwhile to them and the market to do so.e.g. if they release a 500MHz 4CH scope with all options for $400, the entire market collapses.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 12:59:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2019, 08:14:54 pmAgreed.Rigol could simple enable all options and bandwidth and sell at the one discounted price to get many more years worth of top sales.They could do a 200MHz or more version at the same price, but others have 200MHz models too.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 01:11:45 am
content: Quote from: John_Cavanaugh on June 19, 2019, 08:04:11 pmThe Rigol 1054Z with all options enabled is selling by the truck load. They are not about to drop a bundle of money and re-tool up when they have something that still sells well

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 02:51:42 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on June 20, 2019, 12:35:09 amSDS1104X-E vs. DS1104Z Plus, Siglent leads in:Waveform update rate (3x or more)Sample rate in two channel or more operationColor graded display in addition to intensity gradingLower noise floorUI responsivenessFFT sample sizeBode plot functionalityMaximum hackable bandwidthDon't get me wrong, the 1054z is still good value for money, but it's an older design using older hardware and its performance shows that. If they were priced the same, the Siglent would win out every time, and Rigol's aggressive pricing is what's keeping their scope relevant on the lower end market.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 02:54:22 am
content: Quote from: John_Cavanaugh on June 19, 2019, 08:04:11 pmHuh? "A bit younger"? "Not really new"?The SDS1004X-E series has been introduced just 18 months ago and still receives feature upgrades. And you seriously think it will be replaced already?There's not one halfway serious T&M company that would renew their product family every other year. We're not talking about consumer gadgets after all.

author: John_Cavanaugh
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 04:53:42 am
content: Yeah, I guess there is the "whole new platform" and then there is the "mid life kicker" upgrade. Now Im not talking a whole new analog front end etc. Im talking the digital & ui pieces.Im leaning heavily towards the Siglent 1104-XE. Yes its ~$150 more, but it has a better display, deeper memory, quicker ui response times (presumably faster cpu, dual core), the FFT seems actually usable and the bode plot is sort of bonus (but a half baked wip).But those are all things I could see easily in a mid life kicker from Rigol. But I guess you could just say, hey, that is the Rigol 2000, 4000 or 5000 series... If they did it at the same or near price point they have today, they would eat away the siglent low end business.Alas, perhaps the MSO5000 series is the better way to go as it has way more features and capabilities and I could avoid buying a $350 signal generator.Hmm...

author: John_Cavanaugh
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 04:57:00 am
content: Quote from: Performa01 on June 20, 2019, 02:54:22 amYeah, I got the dates wrong, I thought it had been introduced in 2015. My bad...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 05:03:41 am
content: I think it depends on what their production capacity is for the new Phoenix chipset and how well the new MSO5000 series are selling. Sure, I'd like a non-MSO version of the 5000 with a low noise preamp/front end, 50R inputs and 500 MHz bandwidth, all for $500 or so with hacked options. Maybe throw in the front panel probe power contacts and a reference clock input.The only reason to replace the DS1054Z right now is if its replacement can be made more cheaply using a down-rated version of Phoenix. Alternatively, they might put an intermediate model just above the DS1054Z (no I don't mean the 1074Z....) and keep both.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 06:22:52 am
content: Quote from: John_Cavanaugh on June 19, 2019, 08:04:11 pmSure, andthenyou'll complain that the firmware isn't finished, that you didn't pay good money to be a beta-tester, etc. and by the time it's all sorted out there'll be anew'scope available.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 09:24:23 am
content: Quote from: John_Cavanaugh on June 20, 2019, 04:53:42 amUmm, shame you don't understand what you're looking at as there's currently no other instrument with the capability of the SDS1104X-E FRA/Bode plot short of a spectrum analyser for 3x or more the price.Have a good look here where it's tested to its limits:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/For a direct SA comparison see reply #7.OK you need a compatible AWG to do Bode plots with the 4ch X-E but unlike a SA TG there's a lot more a AWG can be used for.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 09:40:46 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 20, 2019, 09:24:23 amThe Analog Discovery does, for less cost than the Siglent. 1Hz-10Mhz at 14 bit.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 09:47:15 am
content: Even better, back in the old days (circa 20 years ago) we used to use tool composition to do this. That's what GPIB was invented for; making something greater than the sum of its parts. You're pretty stuck if you have a scope with an AWG built in and a hooky built in bode plot and you need to do something outside the venn diagram forced on you.One reason I bought the DG1022Z and DG1054Z was the possibility of composing those into new tools with a bit of code running on a PC. And that I have done. (plus now it's cracked that's 0-60MHz with calibrated dBm output).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 01:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 20, 2019, 09:40:46 amWell I look forward to you grabbing one to do arealjob instead of a decent entry level DSO.Don't forget the additional cost and inconvenience of laptop required on the bench and also take care not to blow the 50V max inputs.I'm sure they're a fine little tool but a real alternative to a scope for the average Joe ? ? ?Dave you need more time in front of the 4ch X-E to better understand the real power and features of these great little scopes.

author: John_Cavanaugh
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 02:15:54 pm
content: Well the consensus seems to be that nothing is "right around the corner" from Rigol or Siglent, so that sort of answers the question on new platform. Thanks!!I did take a deeper look at the Rigol MSO5000 series, but as a lot of people mentioned if something is really new it is going to be buggy. The 5000 is way overkill for what I would need and people were pretty clear that a separate AWG is better than anything built into the DSO.I took another look at the Keysight EDU model. While I would love to support Keysight since I worked for years at Agilent and it makes me feel a bit dirty to not buy one, I really need 4 channels and that is a bit too expensive on the Keysight.So the Siglent 1104X-E is the winner winner chicken dinner for me...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 02:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 20, 2019, 05:21:40 amI'm not sure many people would need 500MHz on all 4 channels at once, but I would be able to use it on one or two, even with passive probes. In passive, I currently have a 100M 100X 4pf 300MHz high voltage probe for 1M inputs and a 500R 10X <1pf 3.5GHz probe for 50R inputs. Also, the reason I suggested power contacts is to support active probes. So it isn't a completely far fetched idea. I can look at 500MHz + now with an analog scope.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 03:33:48 pm
content: They could put the extra ADC horsepower into bits instead of MHz.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 05:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on June 20, 2019, 03:33:48 pmI don't think the ADC is what limits bandwidth in these. Even if you went from 8GSa/s @ 8 bits to 4GSa/s @ 10 bits, you still have plenty of samples for 500 MHz. My DS1054Z will cleanly display a 400MHz signal, but it is significantly attenuated by the front end.

author: myf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 07:00:26 pm
content: Hello,I will buy the Rigol-1054z as first DSO.However I may hesitate with the Owon xds-3064ae for it's incredible 12 bits ADC.It seems very much less used and is more expensive (priced at about 600eur or 700eur) than the Rigol at 400eur.Have a nice day !F.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 07:05:49 pm
content: I agree that the ADC doesn't limit the bandwidth. What I'm saying is that their in-house ADC can give them an edge in a multitude of other ways. If not MHz, then bits. If not bits, then power -- TDP and battery life. If not TDP and battery life, *then* price. I'm primarily disagreeing with the "only reason" bit.> The only reason to replace the DS1054Z right now is if its replacement can be made more cheaply using a down-rated version of Phoenix.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 07:17:32 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on June 20, 2019, 07:05:49 pmI was referring to Rigol having a reason to replace the DS1054Z, not us customers having suggestions for improvement. They don't need an edge--the current model is competitive overall and is selling well for now, I believe. When it comes to the almighty marketing and sales, TDP is irrelevant (and there is no battery) and so are most of the improvements we dream about --50R inputs, 12 bits, etc. -- are just not needed to SELL an entry level DSO. However, if they can save $50 per unit in costs, they'll have the new boxes printed up before you can blink.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 08:29:54 pm
content: They had to reduce the price several times over the last few years to keep sales volume up. Those reductions come right out of their margins. That hurts, and it hurts a volume product even worse than a high-margin product. If they want those margins back, they need to refresh the DS1054Z line. They weren't paying $50 for their HMCAD1511s to begin with, so they can't save that with Phoenix, but they can easily get $50 back into the top line -- probably several times that -- by leveraging their new ADC's features in any one of a handful of ways.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 09:00:59 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on June 20, 2019, 08:29:54 pmBut the competition is at or almost at the price of the DS1054Z with mature firmware and better features. A new Rigol scope in the low end segment has to be bug free right from the start or insanely cheaper. Most of the sales is just from momemtum and not because the DS1054Z is such a great scope compared to the alternatives.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 09:39:50 pm
content: In the category of new 4-channel 100MHz scopes for sale in the US with shipping included in price, Rigol sure looks like a price-leader to me.DS1054Z: $350GDS1054B: $400SDS1104X-E: $500Micsig TO1104: $550Maybe that lineup looks different outside the US, or in the land where 2 channels is OK, or where people haven't heard of the Rigol hack, but regardless, we agree on the fundamental point: DS1054Z desperately needs a refresh.In the market segment I am familiar with, the prices reflect that fact.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 10:18:17 pm
content: tinhead found a new siglent 2000 series 10-bit here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/msg2489568/#msg2489568But that will probably will be in the MSO5000 price range at $800+.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 10:50:10 pm
content: 500 MHz scopes are not entry level. They have to have 50path for that frequency (pretty much anything with more than 200 MHz will suck with external terminator). Active probes are also not entry level options.What would be interesting would be 8 ch 200MHz /1.25 GS/sec per ch (with one 10GS/s AD chip)...That could be made to be affordable 8ch scopeNot low end though..

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 02:31:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 20, 2019, 09:40:46 amAt what sampling rate does it operate at ? Because it's no use doing a frequency sweep of 0-20KHz of a class-D audio amp with a 500KHz switching frequency with only a 200 Ks/s sampling rate !cheers

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 05:51:44 am
content: There is datasheet with all the details..

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 08:30:39 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 20, 2019, 10:50:10 pmYup, as it also requires a (possibly larger) high resolution screen and a different concept of an user interface if you want your 8 channels scope not to be just 2 4 chan scopes linked and sharing a screen.No wonder the -not only but basically- only two decent scopes with 6 and 8 channel are from Lecroy and the new Tek platform.One obvious field of application is three phase motor analysis (or six pahse BLDS) or multiphase converters in general. More complex application could also benefit from having independent time bases between groups of channels but that is completely in another league and probably impossible with a single ADC without a lot of grunt

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 09:23:33 am
content: Yokagawa made one tooEdit =https://www.valuetronics.com/product/dlm4038-yokogawa-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-used?gclid=Cj0KCQjwgLLoBRDyARIsACRAZe5Fno0EyeEeJrvElotyWv28fFFeOJ_K7iHBn6GLDuF0p4zj8O5wIP4aArvpEALw_wcB

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 09:24:49 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on June 21, 2019, 09:23:33 amWhat? Your message is too cryptic.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 09:39:12 am
content: I'm well aware that yokogawa makes 6 and 8 channel scopes, they have done it since long time. But i can't comment on what the software is capable of.I have never used a yokogawa with yokogawa firmware. Only those rebadged by lecroy with lecroy's firmware..

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 09:41:05 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 20, 2019, 10:50:10 pm500 MHz oscilloscopes may or may not have a dedicated 50 ohm path. It is still possible to barely get by with an internal switched 50 ohm termination in front of a high impedance buffer at 500 MHz.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 04:43:40 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 20, 2019, 10:50:10 pmWell 1GSa/s, 4 channels, intensity-graded display, serial decoding and FFT were not entry level in the not-too-distant past. But I'm not looking at entry level, but rather one step up from that. Everyone has their own ideas about what they want next--500MHz w/ 50R inputs, isolated inputs, function generators, bode plots, etc. I personally would like less 'features' and higher quality, but everyone has their own ideas on what that means. The things I'm asking for would not be particularly expensive or difficult to implement.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 08:43:40 pm
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on June 20, 2019, 03:33:48 pmIt costs a lot more to go higher than 8 bits than just the cost of the ADC. In practice, it means doubling the memory word width to 16 bits either through width or throughput and also doubling the processing requirements. Rigol went to great pains to maintain 8 bit processing throughout for the highest possible performance. This is why averaging and high resolution modes produce 8 bit results.The oldest Tektronix DSOs immediately promote the 8 or 10 bit acquisition record to 16 bits before processing but this comes at the cost of requiring twice as much memory for a given record length and twice as much processing power for the same performance.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2019, 11:35:00 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 21, 2019, 04:43:40 pmFor less features and higher quality I'd say the Keysight X series. They are just a lot more polished and responsive than other scopes, and IMO easier to use as a daily driver.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2019, 11:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: snoopy on June 21, 2019, 02:31:48 am100MS/s at 14 bithttps://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/specificationsOodles for any sort of audio work.