Sputnik Declassified - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 10:44:05 pm
content: Nice documentary.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:05:26 am
content: Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:26:48 am
content: what a misleading title. i was hoping to see schematics...

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:30:52 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 09, 2015, 12:26:48 amSchematics of what? It was a big dumb aluminum sphere with a primitive RF beacon. The batteries were flat in 3 weeks.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:33:59 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 09, 2015, 12:26:48 amFor your viewing pleasure:fromhttp://aa1tj.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/sputnik-1-radio-beacon-schematic-found.html

author: BennVenn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:41:54 am
content: I didn't think it was a CW transmitter. Didn't it transmit a tone?

author: tyguy2
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:44:30 am
content: Indeed, it did.

author: BennVenn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:45:53 am
content: Can't view YouTube at work :-( but that schematic is an RF generator and power amp. No modulation in the schematic, no tone.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:46:23 am
content: Now who can figure out if that schematic is real?Or better yet, make equivalent using modern components?

author: tyguy2
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:47:08 am
content: Sounds like a challenge.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:48:37 am
content: Actually "modulation" might have been a result of that thing tumbling around randomly.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:49:21 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 09, 2015, 12:26:48 amProbably just 2 NE555s to make the beep-beep-beep signal

author: BennVenn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 01:05:14 am
content: "A one-watt radio transmitter emitted signals lasting 0.4 seconds on the wavelength of 7 and 15 meters. If temperature onboard the satellite would exceed 50 degrees C or fall below 0 degrees C, or if the pressure inside fell below 0.35 kilograms per square centimeter, thermal and barometric switches would be activated changing the length of the radio signal sent by the satellite."

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 01:22:20 am
content: So the interrupted signal comes from external circuitry connected to the "manipulator" input of the schematic (+90V level). So this is not exactly a complete schematic. Both transmitters were built using the same schematic with generators tuned to 20 MHz and 40 MHz.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 04:59:10 am
content: They probably just used turn signal flashers or something like that to modulate it and a temperature and pressure switches to change the blink rate so to speak. Thats what I would do anyways. Russian manufacturing policy. Just good enough and not a bit more. That would be a luxury and wastes the resources of the motherland! HA!

author: BennVenn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 05:34:43 am
content: You might be onto something there, the old blinkers used a nichrome heater and a bi-metalic strip. Probably change flash rate with temp anyway.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 06:53:19 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 09, 2015, 01:22:20 amOr it was just the 2ndharmonic.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 07:02:27 am
content: The article specifically says that there were two identical transmitters. I can read Russian.20 MHz was selected because they had a receiver for this frequency, which could do accurate location. 40 MHz was selected because there were a lot of receivers capable of receiving signals of this frequency. So basically they ensured that at least they can receive something with high probability, and if everything goes right, they would also be able to locate it with greater degree of accuracy.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 07:09:59 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 09, 2015, 07:02:27 amI can't compete with that, I was just looking at this quote:"A one-watt radio transmitter emitted signals lasting 0.4 seconds on the wavelength of 7 and 15 meters."it says "transmitter", not transmitters.QuoteYou are probably right then.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 07:14:09 am
content: The article is a bit vague on how they were controlled, but it is my understanding that they were alternating two of them every 0.4 seconds (the number is not actually mentioned in the article, but the fact that they were alternated is there).It looks like they did it t conserve power. The power supply was not good enough to power both of them at the same time. Remember, bulbs, heating filaments, and all this good stuff.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 08:04:53 am
content: The tone would change due to Doppler shift from the tumbling as well as from the orbiting speed which would be very high due to the low orbit.

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 02:54:37 pm
content: I think the thing that got me the most was the attitude and style of the engineers on the von Braun team.They are ordered not to work on a satellite program so they do it any way in secret.They have an inspection from the Army to make sure they are not working on satellites and the one guy hides it in the trunk of his car. Also works from his garage at home.They want to have a rocket ready to go so they say they need one for, "testing of long term storage".This stuff is great. If they had been giving approval the first satellite would have been launched in 1956 not 1957.When you think that's just 10 years after the end of WWII its pretty amazing.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 03:31:57 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 09, 2015, 12:30:52 amYes Richard, quite.First artificial satellite - RussianFirst lifeform in space - RussianFirst astronaut in space - RussianFirst spacewalk - RussianFirst space station - RussianFirst landing on another planet - RussianPlus of course the USA now uses Russian launch facilities and vehicles to ferry their astronauts to the International Space Station and Russian engines in some of their unmanned launch vehicles.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 04:05:58 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 09, 2015, 03:40:43 pmNot really. The entire country (and the union of countries) was one big military factory. Remember, planned economy, so every engineer of a certain grade gets paid the same amount of money. How convenient this is, you have to work, otherwise you go to jail, and if you do work, you can't get competitive salary. It was not a lot of money either, but it was for the best, there is no consumer stuff to buy anyway. Who needs vacuum cleaners and refrigerators if we are building rockets and communism?Also, the price of failure in the US was being fired or demoted, the price of failure in the USSR on high level project was being sent to Siberia (or reassigned to a new work place, as they were saying). And you could not really pick a place where to live in the USSR, after getting your degree, you were assigned to a certain factory, where you work for the rest of your life.I'm not denying, there were some brilliant people out there, but saying that they did not spend a lot of money is not correct, they basically sold the country for that achievement.And also, the reason why all those things are so well-designed, is that designers knew that they will be built by a bunch of drunk idiots, who don't give a s**t. So everything is over-engineered, because if rocket fails, an assembly line worker, who did not feel like using a torque wrench that day, will not get blamed, but designers will.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 04:20:46 pm
content: The great thing about Russia, is (at least during the space race) they built two of everything they sent to space. So, it's possible to see a real Russian space probe, lunar lander, etc. in person. About 25 years ago, these duplicate vehicles were exhibited at the Seattle Science Center. There were no glass enclosures, just ropes to keep one at arm's distance.It was a huge treat to see them in person as one got to experience firsthand the philosophical difference between Russian and American engineering. Flathead screws were the rule for fasteners. Even for the door to the re-entry capsule. (I'm assuming that the doors were blown off with explosive bolts).This doesn't mean the workmanship was crude. The rocket engines were just absolutely incredible. The welds were perfect - virtually smooth as glass.If you ever have the opportunity to see this equipment up close, do it.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 04:43:08 pm
content: QuoteIf you're into that sort of stuff you should check out this:http://www.flickr.com/photos/64683169@N00/A lot of soviet (amongst others) military (and misc.) equip is there, you can see a lot of difference between this and western stuff. While this is not the space stuff, you can enjoy it.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 05:23:11 pm
content: No question that a "command economy" (remember their "5 year plans"?) and compulsory workforce are more "efficient".But it didn't do much for employee retention (or even citizen loyalty). No wonder they had to build fences to keep them caged in.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 09:59:02 pm
content: Soviet equipment was neither better, or worse - just different. Different objectives, different valuations for how the objective was achieved and so on. People who argue that one or the other design philosophy is better are kind of like those who argue operating systems.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 10:31:30 pm
content: I've been watching similar documentaries about the race to the moon. One of the take-away's was that the 'Reds' made it to space first because they did everything in secrecy and could cover up the about 75% launch failures, including cosmonauts that didn't make it off the launch pad. Only after a semi-random success, was this trumpeted to the world.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_CosmonautsIn the U.S., however, everything was done in the open and even televised. Therefore, technology had to be more mature before risking human life.From an engineering standpoint, the latter approach is of course more sane. The 1st approach is political only.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 10:32:14 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 09, 2015, 09:59:02 pmAlso don't forget the bit that few of comparable western technology had to deal with the "infrastructure" issues Russians had (and still have) - e.g. how many western fighter planes are designed to operate from short, unpaved runways after standing outside in -40C and needing to be repairable with basic tools? Such conditions are common in large parts of Russia and several of their planes were designed explicitly for this. Americans were actually flying their MI-24 helicopters in Afghanistan, because they were more rugged and better adapted for the conditions than the western gear. Etc.Then there is also the Russian "mentality" when it comes to following rules and handling stuff too so being simple and "idiot-proof" helps. And sometimes it was simply a matter of resources - some advanced tech was not available, either because of the western embargoes or local material shortages, so human ingenuity had to make up for it.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 10:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on June 09, 2015, 10:31:30 pmExcept that most of that stuff are urban legends and conspiracy theories, with very few credible sources to back them up.You can keep only so much secret - if that stuff was true, don't you think someone out of the thousands of people who were involved with the space program, even the cosmonauts themselves, wouldn't have come forward already? They have nothing to lose - most of the people who were involved in those early years are long retired/dead and the stuff is declassified. Moreover, any major accidents would have leaked, the same as other things did - sometimes it took decades, but the truth always did surface sooner or later.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 09:30:09 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 10, 2015, 08:35:47 amYeah, you tell the Russian guy how it was in Russia.Man, I would love to be like you, knowing what everyone should think or be like and having answers for everything!I hope your wife/gf is submissive enough to deal with you because of course she would never be right on anything and you'll take every chance to prove her wrong.Mine is Texan and takes no Shit from me at all, but I wished she did (not really).

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 09:50:49 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 10, 2015, 08:35:47 amYes same here. I know someone from the Ukraine that lives here in the UK now through his son (who both incidentally just bailed thanks to the war over there). He was actually involved in the old USSR space programme between about 1965-1985 as a mechanical engineer working on support equipment. Three things he told me...1. There was lots of pressure but no one was punished for failure unless it was due to complete negligence or incompetence and that usually just ended up as demotion to positions such as chef and cleaner. Failure was expected as a whole and those who manned the craft were aware they'd probably end up toast. It was a great honor to either end up toast or survive and their families would be rewarded either way. Plus it was rather cool. There was definitely a cool factor. Plus they were mostly Orthodox Christians which meant they thought they were going to heaven anyway...2. The tech was pretty advanced at the time. They had access to everything that anyone else had. They had pretty good clones of western equipment. They'd just started buying in things like VAX minicomputer clones from VEB state run companies in East Germany when they wall came down (which was when he left) to run simulations on. They had Fortran and all sorts available to them. Most of the equipment they used was cloned American tools.3. This one is my favourite... they were very social and everyone knew everyone and everyone drank together from officers to engineers to cleaners. Outside of the day job, everyone was equal.Now I've worked with a lot of people from Russian and former Russian states and they're all pretty good people as a whole. Don't ever challenge them to a drinking competition though; that stereotype has left me unconscious under numerous tables before. Also poker. They're shit hot at poker. Well shit hotter than me.Not the Russia I suspect you see elsewhere.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 03:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 10, 2015, 08:35:47 amLook who's talking.Communism got debunked but some still have hard time to let go.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 03:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 10, 2015, 08:35:47 amI was born in the USSR in 1983. Granted, it was the last days of it by the time I was old enough to understand what is going on, but still, the "pressure" was quite real.Seriously, just read the story of Sergei Korolev's life. It is very representative of what was going on. Wikipedia article:QuoteArrests like that were a mean to make people more willing to do what soviet authorities wanted them to do.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 03:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: smjcuk on June 10, 2015, 09:50:49 amThe pressure was on the people, who you would not have access to for a free conversation.Quote from: smjcuk on June 10, 2015, 09:50:49 amThat's true. They spared no expense for reverse engineering and re-implementing computers and processors.Quote from: smjcuk on June 10, 2015, 09:50:49 amPeople did assemble in the kitchens from time to time, but that was a rebellion, since there was no freedom of assembly and those kitchen conversations were political a lot of times and not favorable for the government. I remember being told to not talk publicly about what was going on there.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 04:26:06 pm
content: I wish I still had a copy of that infamous photograph published in Pravda.It showed 2~3 USSR engineers showing off their latest technology, an 8K PROM.They had a nice big die-plot of it framed on the wall behind them.The plot was line-for-line stolen from Intel's "tape-out" data.Including the "easter-egg" fish symbol and other private jokes inserted by the layout guys.The only thing they removed was the Intel logo and name.That was just one of many examples of "Communist technology" clearly cloned or simply stolen from the west.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 04:32:14 pm
content: Yeah, they did it a lot. There were a lot of "embarrassing" stories like that. I've heard one, where they have cloned some calculator chip and showed it off at some trade show, where original inventors were also present. And those original inventors recognized their design and entered some secret key combination that made the calculator print company name, original of, course.I don't think it is necessarily bad, they did just rip off the layout to boost the production, but they always went back and created an equivalent. I would say it is better than just ripping off, especially if you re an isolated communistic country.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 07:50:20 pm
content: Back to the subject of the modulation used in Sputnik.... I recall that a BFO was needed to receive it. This strongly suggests an on/off keyed CW transmitter. Such is logical as CW has the best penetration and power conservation. Modulation would be both wasteful of energy and as the receivers had BFO's it was totally unnecessary for the experiment.I take my hat off to the Russians for achieving success with SPUTNIK. On the other hand I do not agree with the animal piloted missions that were intentionally a one way trip. Leika being a sad example. Hero dog of the Soviet Union she may have been, but an unpleasant death all the same.http://time.com/3546215/laika-1957/She was not the only one to be sacrificed either.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_dogsAll I can say about that isCruel heartless B*stardsTo die slowly in total terror is indeed a very cruel death for any creature.Aurora