Does a hobbyist need a Oscilloscope? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2010, 09:48:08 pm
content: Does a hobbyist need a Oscilloscope?Im just playing with small projects arduino related like:http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14402and other smaller projects..Eventually ill get into major things, but for now i havent find a project that i need to use an Oscilloscope, i don even know where i would use it.. So why do i need one?

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2010, 10:04:37 pm
content: Depends on the hobbyist. Depends on the project.Chances are if you don't know where you would use a scope in any of your projects, you don't need one yet.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2010, 11:43:06 pm
content: Quote from: Time on October 11, 2010, 10:04:37 pmi agree. buy knowledge first before buying the tool. or at least buy them in package. a tool without a knowledge is useless bla bla. my point is.... are you willing to learn to use it? to spend time on it? to find out whats wrong or right about it? if yes, then... you can start thinking of buying it. otherwise.... believe me! you'll just get frustrated.... bla bla... ok!

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2010, 11:55:56 pm
content: I will be quick .....Nop .

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 12:05:45 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 11, 2010, 11:55:56 pmi know why u answered that. U hate the thing coz its even cannot be connected to the Mains right? which is the thing that u usually measurebut i suggest you get one as professional you are.... you'll see alot of "Sex on the Stick!" thing on the monitor

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 12:15:55 am
content: I'm an electronics hobbyist and I bought an oscilloscope (Rigol) about 2 years agoDid I need one? for the number of projects I do, probably not.Do I regret buying it? Not a bit. It gets used more often than I expected - and it looks good sitting on the bench.It's a hobby, that's what money is for. I spend a LOT more $$ on my metalworking hobby.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 12:43:29 am
content: heres a example of where you might need a scope... neat robot by the way!lets say, you decide you want to RC your robot. you pick up a rc transmitter module & receiver, ps2 controller and another arduino to run the show. the ps2 controller already has a library that someone else figured out and wrote the code for, but your transmitter needs a specific PPM train in order to function and little to no documentation on how to generate it exists. this is when you break out the probes and actually look at how changes to your code affect the signals your arduino is producing.of course, there are other ways to transmit to another arduino other than PPM, just using that as an example.-sj

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 03:34:13 am
content: To quote a friend of mine, "The time when you're trying to chase down a race condition is the time you really need a good oscilloscope!"

author: MrPlacid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 04:02:35 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on October 11, 2010, 09:48:08 pmYou are more advance than me if you're into ucontrollers, but I still got to put my 2cents in. Even if you don't need an oscilloscope yet, you still need to learn to use one eventually. And that requires an oscilloscope.

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 06:35:24 am
content: Main question is do you want to have an oscilloscope? If answer is yes, and you can afford it, then go ahead and indulge yourself!Life is too short to contemplate such trivial questions

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 06:52:58 am
content: Quote from: Nermash on October 12, 2010, 06:35:24 amI second that - BACK TO WORK....err I mean carry on playing with your projects (well I'm about to start work)

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 12:21:09 pm
content: Yes. But unlike Dave, I think that until you know what a scope can do you can get good use from many of the 'toy' scopes, many of the pocket scopes that sell for < $100 will work for most of your needs.Google states it runs from $30-60 for a kit, and assembled scopes for about $100-200. I think building your own and examining not only how to use it, but what makes it work, is well worth the cost of the kit. If you've outgrown it, it will be money well spent, if not, then your skill level will never take advantage of a more expensive scope.These scopes are typically good for signals to 100kHz, and sample at about 1 MHz.Some better names include DSO Nano, Velleman HPS10, are in the $100 range, are assembled and have better specs.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 12:27:53 pm
content: Dave's with Dave on this one.I'd rather buy a used analog scope instead of these toys.Dave gave all the reasons in his drive time rant a while back.

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 01:22:37 pm
content: I agree with DavesIf you want a scope get a scope, don't buy toys.

author: logictom
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 01:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: Nermash on October 12, 2010, 01:22:37 pmAlso in agree with Daves and Nermash. You've better off keep the money spent on one of the toys and putting it towards a proper scope. Second hand analogue scope any day of the week.As to if you need it then like the others say it all depends on what you are doing, I haven't used mine a a great deal but when I have it's worked a treat showing what's causing the problem.SuperMiguel, nice looking robot, damn now I want one of those chassis!

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 01:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: logictom on October 12, 2010, 01:31:18 pmThanks, so should i save up and get a Rigol DS1052E (seems like a solid scope and alot of people like it) ?? or should i get an old cheap analog scope?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 03:03:28 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on October 12, 2010, 12:21:09 pminteresting toy! good for learning and some non serious stuff!

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 03:17:43 pm
content: Buying a used scope means you know what to look in potentially damaged or second hand scopes, in which case the buyer must have good knowledge of scope usage and performance.Scopes don't give you skills, nor does paying a lot of money for it or hacking it to get more bandwidth, knowledge does, and properly applied, you can do serious work with a toy.

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 03:45:08 pm
content: how is that DSO nano ?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 05:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on October 12, 2010, 03:17:43 pmWith an uncalibrated, non-linear, unsafe toy? Dream on.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 05:21:24 pm
content: I've repaired devices for over 30 years with pretty much anything, just know what is broken and what portion of the scope not to use. if the horizontal trace doesn't work, and you have a Z axis still viable, you can use the pattern of the vertical line depending on what trouble you have. There is no Z axis in DSO these days.Non-linear, uncalibrated? Most any cheap device will hold a calibration for some hours, just calibrate the segment of voltage and frequency you need, find out where the slope changes, and recalibrate at that level.DSO nano or whatever is OK for DC to 30V or maybe 50V, I don't recall, at which point there is a shock hazard with DC, so its really meant for general/hobbyist electronics work.You needn't dream, just study.Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 12, 2010, 05:06:35 pm

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 06:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 12, 2010, 05:06:35 pmif we learnt it, we should be able to make it. if we made it, sure we can calibrate it and make it safe. saturation's point is knowledge, and you know.... "knowledge is power". but yeah, if you just want to have a scope to use (not learn/hack or play) for a some serious work that you want to save some of your hairlines, then a serious scope is the way to go, IMHO. ebaying the "toy" just now, the price is around $40. if you think you cannot waste that, then get a $400 "toy"ps: hence knowledge is I squared Rlogical reasoning

author: apex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 06:10:55 pm
content: I bought an used analog scope some month ago,and I think it is worth every cent!so, when I play around with some microcontrollers,and the clock doesn't work,I don't keep wondering any more.My old scope does it.apex

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 07:10:39 pm
content: Regardless of toy, used, or brand new DSO, enjoy your adventure into electronics.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 08:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 12, 2010, 05:06:35 pmUncalibrated and non-linear I understand but unsafe? What do you mean? It's run from a SELV power supply which makes it safer than most mains powered 'scopes. It's only unsafe if used incorrectly i.e. to measure hazardous voltages but it clearly states the maximum input peak voltage is 50V.The toy 'scope is probably better than a sound card and will teach the basics. The kit version will also teach MCUs, assuming source code and an a schematic are provided; I haven't checked this and if so I might be tempted but because it'll help me learn MCUs not because I want a 'scope - I've already got a couple of nice old analogue 'scopes which are better than the toy will ever be.

author: dendennis
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 13, 2010, 08:10:36 pm
content: I have two of the jyetech pocket DSO scopes, with the latest firmware it now does 20Msa/s.(before it was about 2msa/s but it now incorperates equiv time sampling.)Now I agree it is a "toy" but a reasonable starter for learning the basics.[I'd rather let the kids learn scope basics on the pocket DSO than the rigol.]It only has a 1Mhz bandwidth and is only really useful for signals up to 500Khz.The built in frequency counter can be used up to 5Mhz so for the money it's ok,(and the FFT function on it is .... well it's there but not really useful).Now I'm not endorsing this as a serious scope, but it's a reasonable beginner scopefor learning triggering etc and is a fun (but frustrating due to poor instructions)project to build.This is the real reason why I got some for the construction fun.Daisy chaining both scopes (trigger out to in) I found them quite useable for basic pic work, until I wanted to measure the clock signal.Obviously though if you can get a proper bench scope do it, I got the rigol 1052E and do not regret it at all.now my experience as a hobbyist, I found a few times when a scope would be handy (prompting the "toy scope" purchase)and soon hit the limitations of them, prompting the purchase of the Rigol, end of the day most hobbyists do not "Need" to own a scope but it's nice to have one, and once you have a proper one you won't do without it.

author: bloddybrian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 22, 2016, 07:12:32 pm
content: What do you use an oscilloscope for?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 05:36:49 am
content: Observing electrical signals in a graphic format.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 09:18:44 am
content: Personally i would say you will know when you start to need oscilloscope. When that multimeter just docent cut it anymore when trying to solve mystery of not working correctly in some device you built.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 10:15:58 am
content: "Does a hobbyist need a Oscilloscope? "Some do and some don't.I have two. The last time I used one of them was about 6 months ago. For analog work, I rely heavily on meters - I have an army of el cheapo dt830 clones. For digital work, debuggers and logic analyzers.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 10:55:56 am
content: If you have a computer you can get into the scope world without to much moneycheck thishttps://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 11:04:16 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 23, 2016, 10:15:58 amThat's sane; with imagination and understanding you can use very simple tools to do things that aren't advertised in the instrument's manualPersonally I'd add switches, LEDs and potentiometers, and printf statements to your "essential" list. I built my first computer (6800 based, inspired by the Altair-8080) with switches, LEDs and a multimeter.The one area with "digital" circuits where a scope can be essential is "signal integrity". To save repetition, see why inhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/question-about-analog-oscilloscopes-vs-digital-oscilloscopes/msg968290/#msg968290N.B. that in no way invalidates your approach.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 04:34:36 pm
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on October 11, 2010, 09:48:08 pmDepends on what kind of Hobbyist your are. A Cycling hobbyist doesn't need one, but without Oscilloscope you cannot be an Electronics hobbyist.Plugging in the connectors of an arduino/pic/... and clicking upload only makes you an operator.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 04:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on June 23, 2016, 04:34:36 pmI managed perfectly well without a scope for >10 years, until I was able to use those at university and then work.QuoteAgreed.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 05:13:35 pm
content: Of course you don't need an oscilloscope. You don't need a DMM either. You can debug a great many problems and do a lot of projects just using an LED and a resistor.But an oscilloscope will give you insight into problems you didn't know were there, insight into how your circuits really work, and lead you into deeper understanding of electronics. The real question is can you afford an oscilloscope, and what projects will you have to forgo to afford it. If you are happy with those answers, go for it. (By the way I would get a DMM too. A basic one that will meet most of your lifetime needs will be a small fraction of the oscilloscope cost).

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 07:02:38 pm
content: https://github.com/pingumacpenguin/STM32-O-Scope/wiki

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 07:16:56 pm
content: If you're doing digital/MCU work, I think a logic analyzer is far more valuable than a scope.With a scope: "Yep, it's sending something"With a LA: "Oh crap, the 57th byte was 0xFA when it should have been 0xFE" *find and fix firmware problem on MCU*

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 07:28:44 pm
content: Definitely yes: you can learn many things using it IMO.Forget DSO nanos and similar things, their bandwith is ridiculos.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 08:13:46 pm
content: All you really need is a barrel to sleep in and some onions to keep the hunger away.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 10:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on June 23, 2016, 07:16:56 pmWith LAs you have to be sure that the LA is interpreting the analogue signal in the same way as the circuit's receiver. Problems can arise with different thresholds, especially with the probe leads, and with setup/hold time variations.Those problems are worse with modern logic families, and it is notable that nowadays LAs are relatively little used for professional electronic systems.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2016, 10:39:15 am
content: A scope is a must have, but not at early stages, You will improve your knowledge exponentially after the scopes start to be used

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2016, 02:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 23, 2016, 10:27:05 pmScopes are used for investigating analog problems (noise, voltage levels, and other layout or component selection problems), LAs are used for investigating digital problems (communication errors, timing errors, and other firmware issues). While he can, and likely will eventually have analog problems on a digital circuit, such as the issues you mentioned, incorrectly sized pullup resistors for I2C, etc., for a beginner he is FAR more likely to have digital/firmware/communication problems, and a traditional scope will be next to useless for those. Ideally he'd have both, but for a beginner getting into MCUs, a LA will be far more useful IMO.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2016, 03:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on June 24, 2016, 02:39:03 pmYour overall approach (1: signal integrity, 2: logic) matches mine, but I've always found it possible (even easy) to debug the kind of "logic" problems you mention with a imagination, a scope plus for(;{} and printf statements.Whether an LA with MCU will be sufficient depends on what the MCU is being used for and how it is constructed. I think I'll shortly do a "teach in" where I get people to make a logic circuit on a solderless breadboard - with long leads and no decoupling. That'll teach 'em there's no such thing as a digital circuitOnly last night someone came to me with "when I switch the heater on, the USB link loses sync". Clearly switching (he thinks) 0.5A is causing EMI problems. Given there was only 5 minutes and he didn't know whether his PSU output was earthed or floating, we didn't have time to investigate it.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 11:21:50 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 23, 2016, 10:27:05 pmAll that is true, but then you also have a fancy mixed signal scope that will do that decoding for you, when needed, effectively replacing that LA.For us mere mortals a LA is a must, because, even though my Rigol has serial decoding, it is fairly basic and pain to use.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 11:35:40 am
content: after getting my scope all i can say is if you are into electronics you definitely want a decent one. Even if you dont use it it will make an awesome interactive toy/decoration.

author: nogood
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 01:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on October 12, 2010, 12:27:53 pmChances are that as a hobbyist today you are going to do lots of digital circuitry.And if you need to debug that with no one-shot function on a scope, then that is going to be a huge pain in the ass.You cant even see if a serial protocol is working correctly (maybe a job for a cheap logic-analyzer but still not for a analog oscilloscope).Edit: This assumes that your built up hardware even works, because if you messed up somewhere or broke a part a logic analyzer is not necessarily going to cut it.If you are talking about hobbyists that do audio and maybe rf-stuff then above points are not so valid, but still...PS: I could track down some weird clock issue on my Atmel STK500 with my Rigol, so that paid for part of the scope itself since the STK500 isn't exactly dirt cheap.If you can make use of your scope as a hobbyist in that manner, it basically pays for itself.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 03:00:40 pm
content: Quote from: nogood on June 25, 2016, 01:53:47 pmWell, I've donemanysuch things in the last few decades. It does require imagination and a disciplined development technique, but that's all.Depending on what your environment provides, some of these can be omitted:verify that your software can change the output on to the relevant pin. Equipment: voltmeter, plus either a debugger or a C main function that sets the voltage. Then repeat with a different valueverify that your software can output a character to the pin. Equipment: scope, plus C code that loops outputting a single characterverify that your software can read the input from a relevant pin. Equipment: resistor, plus either a debugger or a C main function that reads and printfs the voltage. Then repeat with a different input valueverify that your software can input a character from the pin. Equipment: external character generator, plus C code that loops reading and printing a single characterrepeat 2 and 4 ensuring that the software correctly detects error conditionsconnect to any other equipment and use scope to assure signal integrity. Equipment: scopewrite your application, taking care to include asserts printfs or other logging functionality, plus the application coded properly as an FSM that reflects and records important actions based on the commsprotocoland what your application does. Equipment: brain, compilerThe last is highly desirable during design and implementation, and more importantly it greatly simplifies the system integration phases. In particular it can be used to demonstrate that your code is working correctly and that the fault is in someone else's code. I've used that to prevent lawyers becoming involved. i.e. not nested if-then-else nor nested switch statements. See any good book on Design Patterns for examples.

author: nogood
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 03:57:48 pm
content: Granted that you can work around such issues, but depending on what you are trying to test you can't always write software for what you are testing.Then you need another workaround for that and at some point you might want to make life easier.Your workarounds also only work, if your problem is not some oddball intermittent hardware issue (I admit that this doesn't happen that often, not to me at least).In the end it all depends on what you are more comfortable with and what you can afford.Given the analog scope prices I know and the amount of scopes that are thrown away that I don't know off (because they are never given away, if you dont' know somebody who can hook you up) it might be worth just buying something recent, if you can.At some point I did do research on buying an analog oscilloscope, but didn't find anything worth the effort.Maybe sometimes they are sold for a reasonable price on forums etc., but even then you might need to do at least a basic adjustment, which might not be so easy.So in my case it was the easier choice to just buy a (at the time) recent oscilloscope -- with warranty -- and be done with it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 04:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: nogood on June 25, 2016, 03:57:48 pmIf you can't change anything, then you are stuffed! Is there even any point in doing a test?QuoteI disagree, based on long hard-won experience. In particular, they aren't "workarounds", they are goodengineeringpractice.Ialwayspresume that intermittent issues (hardware and/or software)willoccur - and structure my applications accordingly. That defensiveness has save me and my companies a lot of aggravation in the past, because we have been able to instantly demonstrate that my application was "doing the right thing" - and theirs wasn't.If the problem is intermittent and hardware, then signal integrity is the key - and you need a scope to see that. Long persistence helps there, which favours digital scopes, but you have to turn off interpolation.If the problem is intermittent and a software/protocol problem, then it is probably the consequence of thesequenceof a large number of messages, and an LA is probably insufficient to do the filtering and capture. Definitely not the interpretation, of course.QuoteEasier choice - yes. Best choice - I can't say. Only choice - no. Best choice in other circumstances - undecidable.

author: nogood
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 05:09:26 pm
content: I wrote workaround, but I mainly meant those looping out character writes.You wouldn't necessarily need to do that if you could just look at the output as it appears in a logic analyzer or a dso.But yeah, the rest are just things you would do to verify what your code is doing etc.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 05:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: nogood on June 25, 2016, 05:09:26 pmI would do it as part of the normal development process; I regard it as the "hello world" of serial interfaces.Clearly it could also be done with a LA, but I doubt I would bother to get mine out to do it. I would just eyeball the bitstream to see it was plausible.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 07:41:27 am
content: Need? Probably not (for hobby). You need food, a roof and some clothesShould? I think yes! It's a amazing tool, that allows you to look at signals in the time domain, and we talk nano seconds. Fascinating!You can measure a lot with your multimeter, but a scope makes clear what happens to a signal. At a certain point that's is what you want.For looking at serial data ( and be able to decode it) you could also consider something like bus pirate (30$).

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 11:30:19 am
content: If you can afford a scope, get one.It's one of the most amazing, fun, cool, tools you can have.It will make you happy.Grab someand your scope and have fun!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 04:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: onesixright on June 26, 2016, 07:41:27 amProvided that can dumpallthe decoded information to a host computer's file, that is probably better than an LA.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 05:34:19 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on October 12, 2010, 03:17:43 pmSo if the OP knew how to buy a used scope he would know to buy one or not. I also recommend (as one who did it) not buy an used scope. Unless the OP has a friend who can look at one and check it out. The shipping is so high that probably the OP would not want to return it. In my case the seller refunded my money but I paid the expensive shipping and the scope went into the trash (it was smashed in shipping because of poor packing). The second analog has bad switches and is waiting for its trip to the dump.I bought a $60 and a $400 scope and I use the $60 (5 meg) the most because it has a "fun" factor. I use the $400 one to keep the $60 one honest.Summary - OP stay away from used scopes

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 04:10:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 26, 2016, 04:28:59 pmErr no. Buspirate can act as a sorta logic analyzer in a pinch, but you have 4 (or maybe only 3) channels at best and it is slow, because it is the onboard PIC doing all the work. It is not really designed for that role, it is primarily serial protocol testing tool. Any cheap Saelae Logic clone that sells for $10 on eBay will be running circles around a Buspirate when used as a logic analyzer - those have 24MHz sampling rate and 8 channels.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 04:29:43 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 30, 2016, 04:10:55 pmI haven't used either inthatrole, since my design and implementation strategies have circumvented any such requirement. The systems I've worked with over the decades have typically had series of messages that arrive occasionally and unpredictably.How would that work with an asynchronous sampling clock and limited depth memory?Would the capture depth be sufficient?Would there be any "dead time" between capturing-dumping and restarting the capture?Would you see the messages as they occurred?Would you be able to capture and then analyse the sequences of messages off-line?OTOH, sniffing characters as they go past and copying them to a computer's console and file is remarkably effective.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 04:44:32 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 04:29:43 pmThatISa LA...what are you referring to when you say "LA" if it can't decode a huge batch of data and export it to a file?Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 04:29:43 pm

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on June 30, 2016, 04:44:32 pmThere are many devices with many characteristics that have been called an "LA". I don't think it would be profitable to split hairs about what an LA "really" is.QuoteSounds like compression wouldn't work with something involving a CLK, CE, DATA. The very cheap LAs I looked at didn't have a separate CLK input (or it was improperly terminated); instead they relied on asynchronously sampling to infer the DUT's clock.QuoteOK, so stuff can be missed in an operating system; hit-and-miss for logging and post-mortem dumps.QuoteSo, fine for logging and post-mortem dumps (ignoring the downtime), but not good for interactive debugging or monitoring.QuoteAll tools and techniques have their limitations. The extent of those limitations depends on the tools and the system being tested.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 06:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 04:29:43 pmI think this is not the thread to argue about what is and isn't an LA. If Buspirate works for your needs (which seem fairly specific and not typical use cases for a logic analyzer, more a serial terminal, btw!), by all means, do keep using it. That's not the point. However, if someone is looking for an LA, Buspirate isn't the best first choice because that function is at best an afterthought in the design of that (otherwise very useful) tool.I have both a Buspirate, two cheap logic analyzers (a cheap Saleae clone and the OpenBench Logic sniffer) and my scope can do some limited decoding as well, but I would never consider that these tools are somehow interchangeable. Each is good for one thing and sucks big time for another.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 06:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmWhy not?Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmYes it's asynchronous, but the sample rate is fast (Saleae is 500 MHz) and it only takes up space when the signal changes states, so does it really matter?Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmIf you shut off logging, then yes you'll miss whatever happens while logging is shut off. I wouldn't really call that "hit-and-miss". If you tell it to grab 5 hours of data, it'll grab 5 hours of data gap-free, provided your system has enough memory to handle it given the activity level of the signals you're monitoring. Something like 115k async serial could be recorded for days, a 50 MHz SPI running full tilt is another story.Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmSure, but dumping out everything you want/need to see over a slow uart plugged into a PC running minicom isincrediblylimiting. It's useful if your requirements fit within those ridiculously restrictive limits, but if not, that's where a LA comes in.All I'm saying is that for somebody getting into microcontrollers, while ideally he would have both a LA and a scope, if it had to be one or the other he'd get far more use out of a decent LA than a scope IMO. Most of my work is with digital circuits, and while I have a scope, the LA getsfarmore use. I can't even remember the last time I turned on the scope, it's been at least a year.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 06:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 30, 2016, 06:08:56 pmJust so, as I pointed out in my one replyQuoteWell, I wasn't the one toraisethe serial interfaces point. I don't agree that my points arelimitedto serial terminals; they are applicable to all comms where there is a series of bits/bytes/messages going in one or more directions.There are too many counter-claims running around, with people claiming tool X is best/required/poor/unnecessary for serial comms. There's some truth in many statements, but too often the balances and caveats are omitted - which makes itseemas if the matter is cut-and-dried.QuoteAnd that's the balance that is often missing.An engineer will find a way to use whatever is available. Doing more with less is elegant.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 06:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on June 30, 2016, 06:11:00 pmHow much can you compress the CLK?QuoteYes, if it is a 10MHz clock and one message every millisecond; that's 10000 transitions per messageQuoteIf it is capturing when a message arrives, that's a "hit". If it is dumping, the message will be "missed"!QuoteThank you for making my point!QuoteLAs can't verify the signal integrity, which is anecessarypre-requisite before it is worth connecting an LA! I often see signal integrity causing problems in other people's circuits, because they haven't understood that there's no such thing as a digital signal.A scope can, OTOH, do some of the things that an LA can - and with some understanding and imagination, is oftensufficient.Anyway, off to the Hackspace, where last week I came across exactly such a signal integrity problen: turning on a heater caused a USB link to lose sync. Good luck debugging that with an LA!

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 07:10:46 pm
content: a DMM just doesnt compare to a scope, the reason is you can get a decent DSO and configure it as you like when measuring, my scope has an app that shows the measurement value just like a DMM. In my opinion a decent DSO should be the first thing on your list other than a decent soldering set. You still do need a DMM as the portable DSOs cost like gold per weight just for one as good as a bench DSO.So whether you get a bench DSO or a DSO that relies on having a PC connected they can both be useful. If a DSO relies on a PC than all that matters is the bandwidth between device and PC and PC's hardware resources.You will learn a lot from a decent DSO, get one you wont be disappointed as it is also a toy. Technically you could make game apps for DSOs but do EEEs play video games?Some will say you can use peak detects to get accurate measurements but DSOs have them too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 07:12:50 pm
content: 3 pages on this simple topic?Ofcourse a hobbyist needs a scope! Stupid question because a scope is the only instrument which lets you look at the shape of a signal and electronics is all about shapes of signals

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 07:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 30, 2016, 07:12:50 pmThats what i've been trying to say, its not just about seeing waves as you can learn a lot from it. Its a must if you want to learn/do electronics.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 07:24:01 pm
content: Tools, toys, whats the difference?

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 07:33:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmA lot. You can compress it to what a synchronous sampling LA would do, instead of what you would get if you just sampled it at 500 MHz without any compression.Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmUh huh, and that's different than synchronous sampling how? Also the vast majority of clocked serial lines only run the clock when they're transferring data, so the point is moot.Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmIf you want to see a message, you sample. You only stop and review when the event is done and you want to analyze the results.Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmWhatisyour point?Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmIt's only a pre-requisite if there's a signal integrity problem.Quote from: tggzzz on June 30, 2016, 05:21:06 pmScopessuck assat logic analysis. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. And yes, a LA is useless for scope duties as well. They're different tools for different jobs. The question is which would be more useful for somebody connecting up COTS boards and writing firmware to communicate between them, and a LA is the clear choice IMO. He will probably run into a signal integrity problem eventually, and a scope would be the right choice to debug it, but the other 99.9% of the time it's going to be a firmware problem and a scope will do next to nothing to help diagnose it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 08:14:08 pm
content: Let's just say that a scope with decoding goes a long way and an MSO can solve 99.9% of the logic analysis problems. What an MSO is very good at is displaying digital signals in realtime which can be a major advantage over a logic analyser.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 08:48:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 30, 2016, 08:14:08 pmI'd agree with that, in fact a scope, MSO or DSO (or even a CRO if you are very patient) can help you solve 99.9%+ of logic analysis problems given enough time and effort. The same is not true the other way around, i.e., and LA cannot solve signal integrity problems.If I had to choose either a scope or an LA, I'd always take the scope. While that's a facile statement for me to make nowadays, barely 10+ years ago, it was frequently the way it was.This takes me back to the days of decoding software on microprocessor based systems with exposed parallel busses in the 70s, using a scope together with a piece of paper and a pen, forcing a reasonably tight software loop to reset and reproduce, find a trigger (never did I use holdoff so much!), decoding one string of bits at a time to figure out software bugs, which frequently, but not always, were causing a stack overflow.Debugging with a scope compared to an LA is frequently a different workflow. Perhaps an analogy is the difference between using an in circuit debugger and printfs in your code to debug, both have value and some prefer one to the other, or use both. I hardly ever use a dedicated LA anymore but for some years, until fairly recently, I did so extensively. Nowadays I much prefer an MSO. Others have different opinions and workflows, but that's as much a personal choice as it is technical reasons (almost every project I do is real time mixed signal).One of the joys of analytical skills is that there are almost always more than one way to skin the same cat. Or, to out another way, ask three engineers the same question and you'll get a dozen different answers, all of which may well have merit.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2016, 09:21:26 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on June 30, 2016, 07:14:16 pmThis week my grandson is studying exponential equations. Like v(t) = v * (1-e-t/T) That certainly looks familiar! I put a resistor and capacitor on a breadboard, fed in a square wave about 6T wide from my Digilent Analog Discovery and displayed the result on a DS1054Z. A neat way to reinforce the lesson plan.Yes, hobbyists need a scope. In my view, sooner rather than later. Add in some kind of signal generator and they can really get a handle on low pass and high pass filters (as well as the more complex filters). It's all too easy to just read about them and assume they are understood. It's totally different when you can plot the results of amplitude and phase. Yes, I know about LTSpice but the simulator isn't the hardware. Amplifiers, oscillators, tuned circuits and that's before we even get to digital. For the truly insane, displaying the output of an analog computer solving some 2d order differential equation.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2016, 08:17:37 am
content: Why would anyone that even doesn't invest 200->500 euro in electronics be called a hobbyist?That's the price of a cheap bike, the price of a smartphone, the price of nintendo/xbox/..., a fishing outfit/set or a surfboard costs more.In my area, a healthy 16-years old can make that amount of money in 2->4 saturdays of work.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2016, 09:24:38 am
content: Nowadays the problem is that people spend a lot of their money on games, mobiles phones and so on that they don't have money to spend on their hobbies. Sad but true.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2016, 08:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 05, 2016, 09:24:38 amThat's the difference between consumers and creators. I'm not sure if there's been a fundamental change that much in the last forty to fifty years, just that instead of the internet, phones and gaming everyone watched the TV.Now consumers still have the TV on, they're just playing a game over the internet on their phone at the same time ;-)

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 10:21:14 pm
content: I think no. You need to eat, you need water. That fundamental.But i think hobbyist wants a scope,if he/she wants to learn / understand!To be a able to see (and understand) the invisible, electricity (signals), you want one (or two...) ;-)And as someone wrote here, if a hobby doesn't cost money find another hobby

author: gfmucci
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 08:28:43 pm
content: For the beginning hobbyist, a scope is more a teaching tool than a diagnostic tool - and then gradually becomes a diagnostic tool. But in the beginning, the scope is "the hobby" like a "hobby horse" is a hobby more than a horse.Well, it made sense when I wrote it.It's interesting to observe the various perspective of those responding to "Does a hobbyist need a Oscilloscope?The categories are:Hell, no. He has no need for it and wouldn't know what to do with it if he had one. [The elitists]Well, maybe, but he needs to spend at least $XXXXXXX to get one that is super accurate (but I don't know what he will be doing with it so I'm not sure how much accuracy he really needs.) [The Speculator]He should start off with a toy/nano/<$150 scope. It's a good starting point he will learn from. [The pragmatist]He should get whatever makes him happy; if he has the money he should get whatever will further his interest. [The dreamer]___________________Levels of "Need"...1. Essential (high accuracy scope)2. Essential (moderate accuray scope)3. Saves time on some things4. Learning/teaching aid5. Good to have "just in case"6. Toy to play with

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2020, 09:38:39 pm
content: Quote from: gfmucci on May 24, 2020, 08:28:43 pmHaha, that's good!I would recommend an Analog Discovery 2 as the first piece of equipment for any new hobbyist, of any age, before buying any other instrument other than a multimeter or two. An AD2 covers all the bases and will take years for a hobbyist to fully understand... and when he/she does understand the AD2, what it does, and its limitations, he/she will be ready for more sophisticated instruments.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 04:14:55 am
content: Personally, I don't think it's essential to own a scope. I went two years of hardcore learning and playing around with just a RadioShack firestick and RadioShack DMM.I bought my first logic analyzer to help me solve a specific problem. I bought my first scope to help me solve a specific problem. I bought my second scope to help me solve a specific problem. When I don't have a scope problem (and for me it's fairly rare) I could care less about a scope. Both these scope were worth the money, because the problem was worth the price.It's better to have a purpose, in some ways. That justifies the purchase. Plus when you're having some difficult problem, it's nice to buy a new piece of equipment to set up and learn, just to shake things up. And to temporarily put the actual problem aside for a bit. To forget how out-of-your-league you actually are, for a bit, and to feel like you're automatically one step closer to the solution simply by having this new equipment on your bench. Then you get to turn work into playing with something new.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 07:55:37 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 25, 2020, 04:14:55 amThat is all pragmatic and sensible (i.e. it conforms to my opinions:) )One point that is often missed is that scopes and LAsand all other toolsare complex, have a learning curve, and will lie to you in one way or another. The learning curve is an important consideration for a beginner, and is often forgotten by those with long experience.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 08:04:10 am
content: I did not read the 4 pages.YES!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 08:11:28 am
content: Quote from: Zucca on May 25, 2020, 08:04:10 amI did.QuoteOf course.First when needing to set thyristor based phase control timing I needed a scope and then when building logic timing circuits I needed one again.There are some things you just can't do without one.