SA for HAM (1-30MHz) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: bolovan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 03:49:15 pm
content: Hello,I have occasion to buy a signal analyzer Hameg Hm5530. I am beginner (in fact, my daily job is not related to any electronics)...and I want to know if is worth the money (500 euro or 600 USD)...It will be used for design and build band pass filters for 1-30MHz, RF mixers and oscillators. All for HAM radio.P.S. I attached the specs of the SA.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 05:21:38 pm
content: The price is cheap for an SA, but I don't think it's worth it. 3 RBW choices (as low as 9kHz!) and only 80dB of dynamic range with a -100dBm noise floor is pretty crude specs for an SA from the last 30 years.It may be a capable instrument, but I would look elsewhere for better value. Finding few generation old SAs to 3GHz or less there are a fair number of options which should yield you much finer RBW with another 10dB less DANL or better. Maybe you can find a unit with a tracking gen to simplify making those filters too.

author: bolovan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 05:48:53 pm
content: I don't need 3Gb...From my point of view, I play only on HF.but what made me think for this unit is that have a tracking generator build in...but also the 9KHz RBW it was to wide in my opinionThe price was good (comparing to other from Ebay etc...)...I never had a SA...so for this reason I made this question...

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 05:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: bolovan on October 09, 2018, 05:48:53 pmGet one with a tracking generator - beg, borrow, or steal the extra money, but get the tracking generator.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 05:52:34 pm
content: While it has an output N connector, it's not a tracking gen, it's just a fixed 50MHz test output.

author: bolovan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 05:57:58 pm
content: Hmmm...yes...now I see that is not TG...si just a test signal.I will wait a little bit more and buy a RIGOL 815-TG...Thanks all for help

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 06:45:40 pm
content: HP 3585A or B if you have more money to spend, usually go for around $400-$1000 range, and about 2x for B model.0-40MHz, build in tracking gen, very few custom parts, 50Ohm and 1Meg Input and otherwise similar specs as the HP SAs that go into GHz range. IMO the perfect classic sweep SA for lower frequencies.

author: bolovan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 06:57:32 pm
content: I am from Romania/europe...so, sometimes, the shipment from US is more expensive than the product...and more...I have to pay here 19% vat.And...I don't have to much money to spend (for me, electronics it's just a hobby)...but I hope that I will be able to go below 1000USD for a used one...other ways, I will prefer to buy new one (like RIGOL). But for this, I will have to wait until christmas

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 07:13:42 pm
content: You might consider the SVA1015X, a SA/VNA combo that's magic for antenna work too.Check out:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/antenna-project-log/

author: bolovan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 08:14:19 pm
content: Hmmm...is nice toy...but is start getting out of my budget . In romania it will come at around 1500 Euro (1800 USD). I don't know I will hide from my wife this money

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 08:25:59 pm
content: What about AD2? It will go up to 50MHz with freq related tasks (100MSa/s RTS max). Currently can normalize only FFT plot but this is subject to change. Plots made with external sine sweep generator, 50ohm passthru. Possible drawback - to get good kick out of it need basic programming skills (JavaScript).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 08:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: bolovan on October 09, 2018, 03:49:15 pmPossibly of interest:http://hfsignals.blogspot.com/p/specan-reboot-of-w7zoi.htmlGood enough for HF usage.Also lots of small purchases to make it so easy to hide from partner

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 08:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: bolovan on October 09, 2018, 08:14:19 pmDon't know if they do the same in Europe, but maybe check rigol and siglent's clearance sections on their site - at least on the US sites they sell used demo units for decent discounts (saw the Siglent VNA for $1600 on the US site recently).Also, don't know how prevalent they are in Europe, but look into Advantest spectrum/signal analyzers. They've often got very good performance for their money, and there are a few older models comparable or better to the HP 859X analyzers that are often half the price or less, and some pretty capable ones with color screens that are more modern for under $1000 US. Probably not as cheap over there, as I understand, but if they're available, they seem to be cheaper than most similarly performing alternatives.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 09:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on October 09, 2018, 08:53:45 pmYes, that's the SVA1015X with the VNA option, an ex demo I believe.On the Siglent Hamburg site there appears to be some option bundles offered ATM:https://www.siglenteu.com/spectrum-analyzers/sva1000x-spectrum-vector-analyzer/

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 09:33:31 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 09, 2018, 08:34:44 pmOh yeah, that's Farhan's (of BitX fame) website. Not sure I would recommend that build to a newbie without much RF building experience but that thing definitely works if he has designed itFarhan's approach to radio remind me a lot of our own experience from the communism era - we didn't have components, we didn't have money to buy instruments (and when we had money the gear was embargoed or otherwise unavailable to us anyway), so we had to use our own ingenuity and homebrew stuff. One heck of a learning experience!I may actually try to build that gadget, if for nothing else then for fun. However, building of all those filters will not be that much fun, especially having to match those crystals(done that once for a receiver build already).

author: bolovan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 05:23:15 am
content: @bd139 as I thold you...I am beginner. I know the principle of a SA how is works. I made some filters and some mixers...some theory I know...but to make this...I need to understand deeply...challenge acceptedAnd...yes...I am able to hide this amount of money from my wife (I only hope that if I will die...my wife will not sell all my stuff at the price that she know that I bought)In the meantime...I will still have to buy one Siglent or Rigol (Siglet I know that is better...but Rigol is a little bit cheaper... - Siglent is around 1600 Euro and Rigol around 1400)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:20:15 am
content: Got a few more minutes to reply this morning...I think step one here is always buy (or steal) a copy of "Experimental Methods in RF design" by Wes Hayward. That covers a lot of test methodologies which don't require an SA. Radio amateurs tend to be cheap by nature and that's a good thing. You can measure IIP3 using other ways for example. Also do not forget a decent receiver has about the same dynamic range if not better than an SA even if you have to sweep it manually. An SA is just a receiver really.On SA, the siglent is far more capable as it's a VNA so you can do s-parameter measurement with it which is very useful. Rigol is way more mature at this point. Both have measurement limitations compared to big brand commercial units but they are stupid expensive. Honestly I'm not sure I'd go with either at the moment. Siglent is cool but hasn't been around long enough for maturity and both are basically disposable if they go wrong which quite frankly scares the cash back into my wallet.I think the problem is there's no such thing as a cheapish spectrum analyser. They either cost you money, time or both. Mine, which I got hold of recently, is a ~1982 Tek 7L12 which is ancient and was broken and still cost me ~ €100 and then needed a €100 mainframe to plug it in to and a few hours of dismantling it and swearing before it worked. And I've come to the conclusion I don't have the space for it now!Few other options to look at which are cost effective:MiniVNA: If what you are testing is mainly passive i.e. antennas, filters etc it might be worth looking at the MiniVNA class devices:http://miniradiosolutions.com/... some capability exampleshttps://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/frank_radio_coax-sw.htmNoise generator and RTL-SDR. This is cheap. I mean really cheap but usable:https://www.rtl-sdr.com/poor-mans-spectrum-analyzer-with-an-rtl-sdr-and-noise-source/Another Farhan jobby. The sweeperino:http://hfsignals.blogspot.com/p/sweeperino.html... I actually built and used one of these. Does the job! I actually had all the junk lying around to put one together so I did to tune an antenna and it worked. I built a return loss bridge as well, from junk. The two together can be used for tuning amplifiers, antennas, filter sweeps and analysis etc.But the thing kicks out a harmonic rich square wave. So I stuck my face in "Experimental Methods in RF design" and ended up with a deconstructed sweeperino using an AWG, power sensor (these are so useful I did a board for it) and return loss bridge. This modularity approach is actually very much more useful for RF than a black box I have found. Perhaps 90% of my measurements are done with this:Many ways to skin a cat as they say here. I think nearly all the problems can be solved without an SA.I'm going to build something similar to the Farhan analyser myself because it looks like it might be fun. Only the VHF BPF scares me a bit and I'm sure I can frig thatEdit: also to note that EMRFD says "any measurement is better than no measurement" thus reserving SA's quality measurements for those who need/can afford it. I think I'd rather spend my money on other toys at the moment. And clear out space that the 7L12 is taking.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 09:49:32 am
content: @bd139You overlook the SVA SA capabilities are based on the existing SSA3000X series, a product that's already been out for a few years and well accepted as more capable and better spec'ed than DSA815 models.Add to the SVA1015X SA capability, the VNA and we have a far more capable instrument.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 09:52:24 am
content: New improved bugs... I joke, but you are right.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 12:06:04 pm
content: The 'any measurement is better than no measurement' needs to be taken with some context though, yes, in general it's true but it's possible to dig yourself into a hole if you don't fully understand the capabilities of the measuring device and what you're measuring.The sweeperino would be an ideal and cheap solution for the OP but if he can raise the money for an SA with a tracking generator and there's no other pressing equipment need then I'd say go for it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 12:46:37 pm
content: Good point. I forgot the YMMV disclaimer on that one.An example: the sweeperino has strong harmonic content due to the square wave out so you need to understand whether or not the response from the DUT is at the fundamental or harmonic. This depends on the characteristics of the DUT and possibly making differential measurements as well.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:40:17 pm
content: I like this version better than the Sweeperino. It does all the same stuff but uses a sine signal, the output is buffered and there is actually usable PC software with it. The only disadvantage is that it doesn't go as high in frequency.http://rheslip.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-simple-scalar-network-analyzer.htmlI have built one and it is a great help when dealing with filters or if you need to tune anything.

author: radioactive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 08:16:27 pm
content: I own both the Rigol DSA815-TG and the Siglent SSA3021X. The Siglent iswell worththe extra $100. I highly recommend waiting until you can afford the relatively small difference in price.