What is the white powder inside computer IEC power cords? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 07:26:09 pm
content: I'm soldering-up a variety of heavy-duty gator-clip to banana jack cables using older computer cords. Is this stuff just talc inside? Quite naturally I'm curious, since lately there is talk of Johnson&Johnson's talc containing asbestos..

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 07:30:34 pm
content: I think it's talc. I don't see how there could be asbestos present given its reputation.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 07:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on July 15, 2018, 07:26:09 pmIMO it's BS to sue J&J for money. First they tried to prove in court that talc causes cancer. When that fell through, they started speculating it was contaminated with asbestos. No hard evidence for presence of asbestos was ever provided.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 07:36:58 pm
content: It's talc. Why on earth would someone put asbestos in talc? It would defeat the purpose of reducing friction. Did you get this from a Trump tweet?

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 07:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on July 15, 2018, 07:36:58 pmWhere are you hiding? At least on this side of the pond, a few people want to split 4.7 billion in claims.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 07:57:51 pm
content: I side with wraper.Not even in my wildest imagination could I imagine where in the production talc could get in contact with asbestos. And why? It makes no sense.Apart from that, I'm certain you cables were not produced using baby powder. Far too expensive.

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 08:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on July 15, 2018, 07:36:58 pmIt isn't added to talc intentionally. It is because you find talc and asbestos minerals near each other in the ground when you mine it. The lawsuit is claiming that there is significant contamination because of this and it was known by J&J for decades. I've no clue if the claims are valid or not.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 08:25:08 pm
content: Definately talc, I think it stops the PVC sticking together when they manufacture the cables. Sometimes I've seen string used in mostly rubber insulated cables but I think it's there to keep the cable bundle round. Talc and asbestos are both part of the serpentine group of minerals. Chrysotile Mg3Si2O5(OH)4is the only asbestos mineral in the serpentine group but it's also used in the manufacture of talc. I can see how people can make the talc contamination connection because of Chrysotile. This is probably where you need an electron microscope. The same mineral, Chrysotile, is used both for asbestos and talc production, all depends on the grade or purity of the Chrysotile, the chemistry and the manufacturing process I guess.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:04:01 pm
content: https://youtu.be/gUKvPH2iF0c?t=3m41s

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:20:29 pm
content: Talc is added inside the cable to reduce friction. Rubber gloves are usually dusted on the inside for the same reason.Talc by itself may be irritating enough to the body to cause cancer and there have beenseveral lawsuitsabout this after questions were raised even before the asbestos allegations.So introducing ground up inorganic rock into the body may be bad; who could have guessed that? Next you will tell me that inhaling the smoke from burning vegetation is the breath of life.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 09:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: tsman on July 15, 2018, 08:15:27 pmI would bet money it's a matter of someone spotting deep pockets and scheming for a settlement.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2018, 11:35:20 pm
content: Thanks all, the job's done.Only a few had paper/nylon wrap, and some will get saved since they're stackable types.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 02:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on July 15, 2018, 07:45:43 pmHow on Earth does asbestos get into an ovary, anyway? Even if it did it has no chemical toxicity. The concern with it is physical, in that the fibres are completely insoluble and hence stay in the lungs as an irritant for a long time.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 04:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on July 16, 2018, 02:59:29 pmHas anyone actually brought forth scientific evidence to back this claim?

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 05:54:25 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on July 15, 2018, 07:36:58 pmWell both is a mineral, although one comes in form of a fibre. Wikipedia (german:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbest#Entdeckung_der_Gesundheitsgefahren) states that talc containing asbest was at least some time used in cables and tire manufacturing and refers to TRGS 517 (also german, just listing talc containing asbest in cable-, tire and rubber goods manufacturing as possibly used).Anyway the claim was that the baby powder caused ovary cancer. In case of asbest, the long time from exposure to development of cancer can be 20 years and usually you´d assume that there has to be a carcinogen. On the other hand... you can find the asbest fibres (which the body can not dissolve, therefore getting fibrous) in the middle of the tissue, i consider that a simple proof, maybe it just failed to proof that it was part of that powder.How big the problem is, depends on the length of the fibre, because asbest < 5µm length, > 3µm diameter and length/width < 3:1 are not counted as asbest fibres per WHO, but rather asbest mineral. So the method of how this powder is ground probably also plays a role, as there are some ambigous definitions on which type of rock can contain asbest fibres because not all forms contain it.I personally like to filter all this through the filter of my cigarette and try not to lick or inhale cables.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 06:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on July 16, 2018, 04:38:02 pmThe closest I’ve found is this article, which includes a statement that asbestos and talc particles were found in the ovarian tissue:https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/13/johnson-johnson-ordered-to-pay-47bn-in-talc-powder-claimQuote from: SparkyFX on July 16, 2018, 05:54:25 pmI had the same thought as you: the fact that asbestos fiber was found in the ovary doesn’t prove that it came from the talc.P.S. In English it’s “asbestos”, not “asbest” as in German.P.P.S. Make sure that cigarette isn’t an antique from the mid-50s, since they used tomake ciggie filters out of asbestos, too!!(And not just any asbestos, it was blue asbestos, which is even worse than the common white one...)

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 06:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on July 16, 2018, 02:59:29 pmConsider where women might apply baby powder to themselves.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 08:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 16, 2018, 06:53:37 pmI'm no MD but from there to the ovaries? what were they doing?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 09:05:46 pm
content: QuoteYou don't need to be an MD to read about the anatomy. There is no parietum (i.e., wall) between a female's ovaries, her vagina, or her skin. Ovaries --> fallopian tubes --> uterus --> vagina --> (you guess the rest) Or, just think of how babies and made and reverse it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 09:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 16, 2018, 08:21:25 pmWell, when a mummy and a daddy love each other very much, the daddy puts...Via the Vagina -> Uterus -> Fallopian tubes -> vicinity of the Ovaries. Ectopic pregnancy, for instance, is when the egg gets fertilized [Edit: and implants] in a Fallopian tube, there is a 'navigable' route right the way to the Ovaries. The journey could take decades - remember how much baby powder used to get thrown around before disposable nappies (still does?).That's probably a first for eevblog!P.S. Damn, jpanhalt beat me to it!

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 09:22:16 pm
content: J&J have a long history of tainted products and medical device recalls,a couple a year on average!!i could believe just about anything if they are involved.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 09:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: stj on July 16, 2018, 09:22:16 pmWith an outrageous claim like that, please present your evidence for the last 5 years. That is, 10 recalls for serious matters. NB: Medical devices are particularly prone to recalls for such things as typos and blurred printing on labels. I some cases, the products can just be relabeled.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 10:03:45 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 16, 2018, 08:21:25 pmQuote from: jpanhalt on July 16, 2018, 09:05:46 pmWithout wanting to get into too deep into anatomy, there is no natural migratory path for foreign substances like talc to get from the outside to the inside of the female reproductive apparatus. The vagina is a self-cleaning system with a constant flow of mucus sweeping foreign objects like microbes, dirt or bacteria from the inside to the outside.Any supposed connection between the external application of feminine hygiene products and a pathology of the ovaries has to be tenuous at best.Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 10:18:00 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on July 16, 2018, 10:03:45 pmI didn't say it was likely. I said there is no physical barrier. I don't know if you have ever witnessed an American trial with dueling "expert witnesses." That is, a plaintiff or defendant can find an "expert" who will testify to anything. A general consensus among trial attorneys is that you have to have those witnesses, but ultimately they have little influence on the jury's decision. And in most cases involving strong emotion (like a disabled child) the jury's decision is based on emotion and a bias against the "big, rich companies." Of course, those cases get appealed and the final outcome is usually a negotiated settlement.Now as for "cleansing," how do sperm get all the way from the vagina to the ovaries to cause an occasional tubular or ovarian pregnancy?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 10:35:16 pm
content: OK they found asbestos in a cancerous tissue. That is one step in proof, but there are several more needed. A small one is establishing carcinogenic properties in that tissue. It is credible, but proof means you have evidence. Such as examining huge numbers of ovaries and measuring amount of asbestos in both non-cancerous and cancerous ones and showing a statistical relationship. Tying it to the talc is another step. Showing that asbestos existed in some quantities in some talc at some time establishes plausibility, but is not proof. Perhaps the ladies in question had relations with brake repairmen or insulation installers who had poor hygiene practices. Or used strange sex toys.But as said before, proof in the American legal system is a very flexible concept, administered by juries of people who score poorly on world comparisons of education and knowledge.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 10:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on July 16, 2018, 10:18:00 pmthey swim, so unless asbestos fibers grow a tail and start swimming I'd say it is bollocks

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 10:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on July 16, 2018, 10:18:00 pmAccording to Rose Nylund,by mail!! (Sorry, just watched that episode yesterday. :p)

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2018, 11:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 16, 2018, 10:35:39 pmSuch motility might be a factor that assists, but it is not necessary. Please explain how Neisseria gonorrhoea frequently infects upper parts of the female reproductive system.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 12:28:14 am
content: Geez Louis, I never envisioned things getting this funny.. What a lark

author: X
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 01:15:35 am
content: The powder is for reducing the friction between the insulated cores and outer sheaths, often useful when you have to strip cables with multiple cores in a specific way. I've also seen it in some alarm cables, so this isn't restricted to just mains cords. It really depends on the surface area of the core insulation vs sheath insulation and up to the manufacturer, since this also stops the cores sticking to each other and improves the flexibility of the cable.A lot of cables also have a string in them, it allows you to strip large sections of the sheath off cleanly reducing the risk of nicking the insulation of the cores. Very handy with cables like Cat6, though I've rarely seen this in mains and security cables.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 01:28:19 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on July 16, 2018, 11:19:18 pmThat's bacteria --- a living thing that grows and moves. Asbestos is not, and does not reproduce.Anyway I wouldn't mind the talc. Just do as you would with any fine particulate and don't inhale it...

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 02:01:46 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on July 16, 2018, 09:44:36 pmhttps://duckduckgo.com/?q=johnson%26johnson+recall&kp=-1&kl=wt-wt&kv=1&kh=1&ia=web

author: Karlo_Moharic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 11:13:43 am
content: It's magic ferry dust

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 11:25:53 am
content: Quote from: Karlo_Moharic on July 17, 2018, 11:13:43 amAye! How dare you abscond with Simon's face..

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 12:45:50 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on July 17, 2018, 01:28:19 amThis is the real on topic message for this thread.The hazard from this substance in this application is really, really small. Don't do anything stupid and you will be fine.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 03:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: X on July 17, 2018, 01:15:35 amIt also improves heat transfer through the insulation, cooling it down better and perform a bit better keeping overheating insulation in shape.Quote from: IanB on July 16, 2018, 10:03:45 pmSo are the lungs... yet asbestos (thanks!) is proven to cause lung cancer. As far as i understood it, the whole process is not fully researched, but so far those fibres themselves penetrate and tangle in tissue, are unable to be moved out by self cleaning processes the body has and do themselves not react with the tissue. Yet the bodys reaction to it means it gets coated in the remains of antibodies, the tissue scars and the regular irritation somehow causes the development of cancer. This can take 20 years, maybe less if there is constant exposure of asbestos, adding it up.The skin is usually not affected, it probably does not penetrate deep enough and skin rubs off all the time, mucus membranes do not in that form (not all of it? at least not as effective).

author: Tedro
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 10:25:23 pm
content: WTF are "Ovaries"?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2018, 11:35:58 am
content: Quote from: Tedro on July 18, 2018, 10:25:23 pmroughly the female equivalent to testicles, storing eggs rather than sperm

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 04:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: Tedro on July 18, 2018, 10:25:23 pmI fear for the continuation of the Human Species.