How easy is it to get work in EU after Brexit (and vice versa) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 06:13:28 pm
content: Hi,How easy is it for a UK citizen to get work in electronics in the EU post Brexit?...also vice versa?I am now seeing loads of EU plate cars on UK roads.....i am told that this is all the Brits returning from the EU because they think theyll be kicked out after Brexit.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 06:15:04 pm
content: Quote from: treez on August 25, 2019, 06:13:28 pmNobody knows. Except, maybe, your PM.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 06:25:49 pm
content: Either easy or pretty hard. Luckily I’m not UK. Thank god. I would jump now if that’s your plan, since if you have a job in the EU there will be some transition agreement.Sent from my X using Tapatalk

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 06:50:55 pm
content: QuoteHe cant tell his arse from his elbow so no point asking him.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 06:51:19 pm
content: You can keep wondering until the cows come home. That won't really help. One very simple advice (yet obvious) would be to move and get work in the EU NOW if you really want to do that, while you know for sure you can.I'm sorry about the poor Brits returning home, dunno if it's some form of transhumance or whatever.Jokes aside, I sincerely doubt any european country will kick them out after Brexit, especially if they have a job (they already have a hard time kicking out people who entered illegally to begin with.) That would look a bit like deportation or something. I'm sure the ECHR would put a stop to that quickly.The somewhat difficult part here is that the UK is not part of the Schengen area. If it were, it would have made things a bit easier after Brexit. I've seen british people whining about Brexit , but I haven't seen many of them whining about not being part of the Schengen area before. Oh well.Assuming this is possible, are you sure this will be easier to get a job elsewhere in the EU than in your own country to begin with? Take a look at this first:https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/not many are doing better than the UK...Now of course you may think that getting out of the EUSSR will get you guys divine punishment and ruin your economy.Nobody knows.As a last thought, as I said above, since you have exactly zero power to do anything about what will happen anyway, just take whatever action you feel most comfortable with. Either move out of the UK now, or just stay and move on with your life. I don't think the UK is going to burst into flames.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 06:54:31 pm
content: If the UK goes ahead with stopping the free movement of people the day brexit happens, I assume the other countries will retaliate and things will get pretty bad for any new people that want to move around. Hopefully people already settled into a job and a life will be treated better.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 07:39:05 pm
content: You can always apply for an Irish passport, I remember hearing that a lot of people were doing it a year or so back. Not sure if there's still time.Maybe apply for a Scottish one at the same time!

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 08:16:18 pm
content: QuoteThanks, but mainland EU is better for engineering jobs than UK i think.I have some great electronics product ideas i would like to develop and was told that the Germans are offering a living wage for Brits to come over there and develop their ideas in Berlin...i would be up for this now. Does anybody know how to go about this though? Who do i contact?....after the Brexit referendum in 2016, there were loads of lorries driving round london's streets with huge signs saying "Startups, keep calm and move to Berlin"....nice ..but may i request how do we go about it?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 08:33:02 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 25, 2019, 06:51:19 pmSchengen has little to do with free movement, that concerns only the literal border checks but does nothing about whether or not you have the right to settle and work somewhere.Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 25, 2019, 06:51:19 pmThat's not going to happen. However, any EU expat in the UK or UK expat in the EU will very likely face the requirement of having to obtain a work/residence permit (not visa) on a short notice, through the same process as everyone else from a third (non EU) country. Think of someone from Somalia, for example. I have been through that process before my country (Slovakia) has been admitted in the EU and then during the 11 years of the various transition periods before Slovaks gained the full membership rights, and I can tell you, it is a lot of "fun".There is no legal right to the permits - you are pretty much at the mercy of some faceless bureaucrat somewhere. If they refuse to grant it for whatever reason, you are screwed. There is little to no recourse in such case. You have usually two weeks to leave the country, nobody cares about your house/flat/family/whatever (Switzerland, yay ...).The permits are often short term (one to five years, depending on country and type of permit) so you have to renew them. And they are often tied to the job you are doing - lose the job, lose the right to stay in the country ... In many countries you won't be able to legally acquire property, such as a flat or a house (Denmark is one such example).Oh and the process often needs to be done from yourhome countrythrough the embassy of the host country, you can't apply from within the host country (I am sure that this bit will be waived for the Brits, though). You will often be required to have a work contract beforehand (assuming the future employer is willing to do it for someone who doesn't have the right to work in the country yet!). Some countries will give you a residence/work permit with the goal of finding work but many won't and you need to present the contract with your application.The process can take months, e.g. I have been waiting over 6 months for my first Swiss residence permit and 4 months for a Danish one (and the Danish one has been after Slovakia has joined the EU already!). In both cases I had contracts or letters of intent, both cases were employment at a large university and it both cases it took ages and a ton of paperwork.I think a lot of people are in for a very rude awakening and a shock, especially after being used to travel and the ability to work everywhere with little to no questions asked and without passports. A lot of people don't realize how baroque and ridiculous the immigration rules of the various countries are, given that they never had to deal with them before.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 08:39:38 pm
content: A living wage!To employ someone from outside the EU a company has to:A. Prove there is on one inside the EU who can do the job. This generally requires placing adverts and showing that no one qualified applied. EtcOrB. Employ some sort of 'specialist', i.e. a SMPS Engineer who by the very nature of their work will be paid over a minimum amount. I think it is currently over 60k euro here.Both of these require a company willing to do a large amount of paperwork and pay a couple of thousand in fees etc.OrApply apply for an Irish passport. If you quality or if you play football for us we can even look the lack of an Irish Granny. Even Ian Paisley Jr and his DUP friends jumped on this trick!

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 08:50:33 pm
content: I’ve worked in Germany, France and Luxembourg before the EU even existed. Similarly my missus is French and has worked in the UK since 1979, again before he EU ever existed, but when the EEC was in place. In those days there was a lot of paperwork, including attending a police station regularly. This may still be the case for non-EU citizens in the UK, I don’t know. There is still additional paperwork to do in many EU states, particularly around property letting and purchasing, if you’re not a native citizen, so it’s a fallacy to say it’s totally free movement even now, but it’s close.While it will undoubtedly become harder for a UK citizen to get a job post Brexit in the EU, just as there are plenty of people who aren’t EU citizens working throughout the EU, they’ll just need to have the right credentials to be able to work in a given country.If you look at published immigration statistics from EU countries, there is no lack of appetite for non-EU immigrants. It just means you will have to work harder, be the right person, and find the right company to emigrate, just like we did not so many years ago, and still do now when emigrating to any other non-EU country.What is yet to be clarified is the status of UK citizens currently working in EU countries. One would hope those countries and the EU will reciprocate the published UK stance, where, irrespective of any outcome, current EU citizens working in the UK will retain that right. They just need to do some paperwork if they don’t already have leave to remain.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 08:55:48 pm
content: You have to remember, in the event of a no deal there is no fall back. A British Citizen has no more rights than someone from a 3rd world country with no travel agreement with the UK. Same goes for British companies operation within the EU. If the company or it's parent company is incorporated in the UK it can no longer operate in the event of a no deal. This is not something I am making up, I have been to several meetings with the Irish version of HMRC. Who have put emergency procedures in place to try and alleviate the fallout.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 09:03:24 pm
content: If a company hasn’t already made the correct legal entities for cross border operation, then I agree they’ll be ready for quite an awakening.However, the entities I work with were already prepared for 31 March 2019. It was hard work, but we did it. Lots of planning, late nights, and coffee and pizzas. The work has been done, and from a bums on seat perspective, they are already operating as if it were already no deal on 31 March.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 09:06:15 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on August 25, 2019, 08:33:02 pmWell of course it has to do with free movement: abolishing internal borders means free movement within the area. It doesn't mean free lunch though.And it's not just about border controls, but also about a common visa policy. "Settle and work": it's all in the duration. Within the Schengen area, AFAIK you can stay for up to 90 days without any visa. And it's relatively easy to get permission to work during this time in practice.https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen_enhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_Schengen_AreaThe only criterion of course is the duration of the stay, but under 90 days, it makes things much easier. Above that, you'll still need to get some kind of permit of course, depending on each country. But it's usually much easier to get one in practice if you come from a country part of the Schengen area than if it's not. There may also be some additional agreements between some of the countries.As an example of the vice-versa, it's not difficult (as long as you're qualified and you find a job) to work in Switzerland coming from any EU country. Same in Norway.You also have to consider all the people that live close to borders, live in one country and work in another. Many are in this case. Again here the Schengen agreement makes things much easier.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 09:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 25, 2019, 09:03:24 pmThey have not because the smaller ones have been told nothing.The big pension companies etc transfered before the first deadline. Since then we have transferred 3 or 4 companies to new entitles. The problem with notifying them is we will be hit with questions and it is not our problem. They pay their Accountants and Solicitors for advice. When advised, they can come to us and we can telling them the magic buttons to press. Of course that is only one stage a very large paper pushing exercise.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 07:11:14 am
content: In related news, I got mail from my bank stating that they are allowed (?) to terminate my account if they find out I'm a resident of a foreign country.According to the same paper, this is supposedly somehow connected to Brexit.Not sure what it means and why should my bank desire to terminate aything in the first place, but it seems like there is some drama coming.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 10:38:10 am
content: Moving abroad isn't practical for many people due to family commitments.I agree Brexit will have a negative affect on the economy, but I don't think it will be as bad as many people say, even if the UK leaves without a deal. The UK employs plenty of people from non-EU countries and vice versa. It will make life more difficulty but I don't believe it will bring the country to a standstill and make nearly everyone jobless, as some people think.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 10:59:32 am
content: Quote from: treez on August 25, 2019, 06:13:28 pmYou do realize that this is arguablythebiggest unanswered question in the entire matter? If anyone outside the respective governments had the definitive answer to this questionright now, they could offer consulting services at pretty much any price they wanted.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 11:36:06 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 26, 2019, 07:11:14 amIt’s no different to how you’d be treated as any other non-EU foreign resident. That may mean a change in the services and types of account available to you. Plenty on non-EU foreign residents have UK bank accounts. There are, however, different regulations such as the deposit guarantee scheme (underwritten by British tax payers) which may no longer be applicable to you as a non-resident.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 11:43:11 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 26, 2019, 10:38:10 amThis pretty much represents my view also, however I do have additional concerns of the rights and protections of UK citizens working in EU countries. As far as I am aware the EU have been very quiet on that despite the repeated guarantees made to current EU citizens working in the UK by the UK government. On the other hand, anecdotally some EU countries such as France haven’t been shy about issuing unhelpful disinformation to their citizens working in the UK over the past year or so.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 11:44:18 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 26, 2019, 10:59:32 amYou are assuming the respective governments know!Regards, Dan.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 12:04:33 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 26, 2019, 10:38:10 amWell, even prime ministers have no job security due to brexit. How about the common people then

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 01:17:48 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 26, 2019, 11:43:11 amTo be fair to the the EU, how good is the UK government's word? I can understand them not trusting the UK's guarantee on the rights of EU citizens, after the Windrush scandal.I think the EU will be fair to UK nationals living there, as long as the UK does the same for EU citizens living here.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 02:39:43 pm
content: At least the UK gov have made an unequivocal commitment, which is worth a lot more than silence.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 02:49:23 pm
content: I think it's mostly bluff from the EU's side. The EU is doing anything it can to hinder (read: prevent) Brexit. I'm not british and I haven't studied the proposed deal in details, but it looked pretty much unacceptable for the UK, whatever your opinion is, so of course the "no deal" option is becoming the only option, short of not "brexiting" at all (which I'm sure is what the EU is still hoping for).Some people are afraid of the "no deal" scenario, of course not all, as the consequences are largely exxagerated as others have pointed out. That said, what nobody knows is what will happen AFTER Brexit. If no deal has been found before, what's the guarantee that any agreement will be found AFTER? So this is the main unknown. There are so many interests at play here though, that I highly doubt the EU will keep ignoring the UK after Brexit. Deals will have to be found and signed. The EU can't afford to do without the UK IMO.As for citizens living in the EU... seriously: as many of us already said, there are already many people from outside the EU who work in the EU. It's not that much of a problem. Why would we suddenly kick out only the British and keep all the others? Are we that anxious to punish the UK for having insulted the Party?

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 03:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 26, 2019, 02:49:23 pmThe whole dilemma is about (lack of) trust.EU insists on the backstop because they don't trust the UK to really find and implement means to make the NI/Ireland border an open one without jeopardising EU's economic interests while the UK don't trust the EU that once they have found a feasible solution EU would declare it insufficient and thus make backstop permanent.That is the negotiation result of three years. I'm sure BJ will fix that within 30 days

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 03:30:18 pm
content: Regarding the comments on exaggeration, I disagree. For the comparatively wealthy and valuable people, who I suggest most of us are based on the nature of the forum, it's not going to hurt a bit other than some loss of spending power and possibly saying goodbye to some colleagues and family (been there done that) and reducing expansion plans considerably. This isn't however the norm perhaps and it's easy to look at the situation through the rose tinted lenses of options.For the average fungible person with not insignificant debt, it's a complete disaster. I know a number of people who are up shit creek already as their companies have folded or workforce has been reduced and more who are up shit creek immediately because their management will just fold the business the moment we have tariffs in place. And there's nowhere for them to work other than abusive zero hours contracts. That's a big snowball which will hit the rest of us in the form of crime (look at historic riots in the UK). A good case study is Hatfield in the UK which had one primary employer (British Aerospace) closed most of their facilities down. The damage done to the local area in the early 1990s is evident even today.On the employment front, as always, you're free to go and work wherever you want if you can get a work visa or citizenship. Much like when Polish folk come to work here at the moment, they have better spending power at home so the reverse will be true. So when you go to Poland and fix a Polish guy's fence, you can tell him "I was an engineer back in England" and they can laugh at you for a change...

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 03:54:54 pm
content: Sorry but this is very very misguided and wrong!Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 25, 2019, 09:06:15 pmOnly if you are an EU citizen! If you aren't (e.g. that Somali guy/gal I was talking about or a post no-deal brexit Brit),none of this applies!That you can cross an internal border without being checked gives youzeroright to settle and work in the destination country (and then you have been checked at the external border somewhere - airport, for ex). And people are routinely being deported for this (e.g. consider all those migrants criss-crossing Europe now).Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 25, 2019, 09:06:15 pmDoesn't apply if you are coming in for work. The visa-free 90 days are only for tourism, if you are actually trying to get employed, you will need a work/residence permit (in some places both). And good luck landing an interview if you don't have the right to work in the country already. In most cases your application will be rejected outright.That you can't get the work/residence permit without a work contract (or at least a letter of intent, since signing a contract with a person without a legal right to work in the country could be illegal for the company) is completely your problem. So if you expect to travel somewhere and hope to get hired during those 90 visa-free days, good luck with that. You have literallyno idea. In some countries you could even get deported for doing that if caught.I believe Switzerland used to do that, not sure whether they still do - you weren't allowed to come and look for work like this. You had to apply for work from abroad, get the letter of intent from the future employer, then apply for the residence permit at the Swiss embassy. Then the future employer had to do the same thing from Switzerland, filing a lot of paperwork saying that they really want to employ you. Only after you had the approval (and a special visa in your passport, even if you didn't need visa for entering the country otherwise) you were allowed to enter Switzerland and sign a work contract. This process took several months - about 6 months, I believe.The residence permit would have been delivered there once you have registered yourself with the local police. It was a different paper than the visa in the passport - the visa was only temporary for one or two entries of the country and didn't actually give you the right to work, only the permit did. The delivery of that piece of paper took another few months during which if you have left the country, you were risking not being allowed back with the original visa having been expired. I had to get another temporary visa while waiting for the permit to be delivered because I had to attend a funeral of my uncle during this period.If you tried to travel to Switzerland during this process before your permit was approved, the immigration would have cancelled the procedure and banned you from entering (allegedly for trying to gain an illegal entry).In my case I have got a "B" type permit - these need to be renewed every year and are tied to your job. Lose the job and you lose your right to live in Switzerland (and have to do the entire procedure again). After 5 years you can "graduate" to the "C" type, which needs to be renewed only every 3 or 5 years (not sure anymore) and isn't tied to your job. This is also the permit that workers from the EU countries normally get these days (you still need the piece of paper even though getting it is now mostly automatic for EU citizens because of the free movement rules). Then they have special permits like "L" which is for short term students, the "G" for cross-border workers.Be glad that you have never had to go through something like this as a French citizen. But this is the daily routine for anyone from outside of the EU - and then we are wondering why people are risking lives trying to immigrate illegally, when the legal procedures are like this ...Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 25, 2019, 09:06:15 pmAnd:a) None of that has anything to do with Schengen.b) Applies only ifyou are an EU citizen(both Norway and Switzerland are applying reciprocal free movement rules for EU citizens as one of the conditions of access to the EU single market).None of this will apply for the Brits if they end up exiting the EU with no deal.They will have the same status as everyone else from a third country - and then I can tell you the Swiss immigration isextremelystrict about the work and residence permits (been there done that for 4 years while doing my doctorate).Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 25, 2019, 09:06:15 pmAgain, that has nothing to do with Schengen (that only concerns border checks). The cross-border worker regime is governed by special rules, e.g. in Switzerland they get a different work and residence permits as "frontaliers" - the "G" permit (had a lot of French colleagues living on the French side of the border and working in Lausanne, Geneva and such).See here:https://www.frontalier.org/permis.htm

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 04:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 26, 2019, 02:49:23 pmIt doesn't appear the EU is intentionally hindering the Brexit. The problem is that the British people and politicians are deeply divided and haven't been able to figure out what to actually negotiate. The EU is obviously not going to negotiate against the interests of its constituent nations to help the UK out. There also seems to be an element of shock. This is what any other non EU country in the world has had to deal with except that those tend to have reached various agreements already. The shift from being a party to having to start from scratch with zero deals in place and having to negotiate your own interests with limited leverage is so large some will perceive the difference as intentional hindering as reality sets in.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 10:07:46 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on August 26, 2019, 11:44:18 amHahaha, right?? But yeah, I don't in any way assume theydoknow. But even if they did, companies seem to rely on paying overpriced business consultancies, rather than investigate policy on their own!

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 09:49:22 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 26, 2019, 04:02:31 pmI have a different view. In agreeing the Article 50 extensions, it was stipulated by the EU Council that the withdrawal treaty was not open for further negotiation, knowing full well that the UK Parliament has repeatedly proved unable to accept it.True to form, Merkel and even Macron suddenly declared it's not a closed book after all last week, so it's now clear who really pulls the strings in the EU, in case there was ever any doubt.Probably the biggest hindrance to Brexit is that the overall views and makeup of the UK Parliament have not been representative of electorate's on leaving the EU. The lesson is that you shouldn't risk holding a referendum unless you're 100% sure you'll know you'll get the right result, and it's why Tony Blair twice wisely avoided holding promised referendums on Europe, fearing it too risky.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 10:14:13 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 27, 2019, 09:49:22 amIndeed and it wasn't as risky when Blair was around. Someone had to take the risk eventually though due to the pressure from village racists (UKIP), the village idiots (Tabloids), the propaganda cartel (CA etc), the complacent baby boomers and party internal interests (mainly driven by incoming EU tax regulations I suspect). I use the term propaganda cartel as this goes a long way back when a feedback loop was developed via some analytics companies, one of whom I worked for, and political think tanks and PR companies backed by the usual nest of shell companies with external interests. Unfortunately it backfired by a narrow margin because Cameron underestimated the control over the electorate. Also our opposition party happens to be propelled by Che Guewanker who is quite up for Brexit himself as it'll give him an excuse to regurgitate Das Kaptial on us. Can't lose, if Brexit is what you want.The whole thing? Well it shows what happens when your legal and political system is held together with duct tape, string and glue like ours is.Ugh. I'm going to Mars with Musk.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 10:33:36 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 27, 2019, 09:49:22 amThe Article 50 extensions were requested and negotiated by the UK. Reneging on the agreement because the representative may actually not have been representative means it's no use negotiating in the first place. You can't move forward by going back on the few tangible results attained and a hard Brexit is the only real alternative. It's illustrative of the political confusion and disarray. Almost every approach and course of action has been voted out and there isn't really anywhere left to go. One can't really blame the EU for protecting itself from this chaos by stipulating that any agreement is final and and wanting to move forward instead of going back and forth.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 10:38:15 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 27, 2019, 10:14:13 am"Truth! Justice! Freedom! Reasonably Priced Love! And a Hard-Boiled Egg!" (c) TP.CheersAlex

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 10:50:45 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 27, 2019, 10:14:13 amI stopped reading. Respectfully, this kind of rhetoric is not at all helpful whatever side it comes from.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 11:13:38 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 27, 2019, 10:50:45 amIf someone's being an idiot I'm going to call them that right to their face. If you take a mono-sourced view of the universe then you're guilty as sin here regardless of political affiliation (incidentally which I have absolutely none - I think the whole thing is lunacy). The logical views were unfortunately marginal in this election outcome. If you have those I respect them and in fact there are perfectly valid reasons to exit the EU. I personally believe that no union is ideal but the meter plainly lies on the side of beneficial here simply on the basis that you don't play chess by kicking the board off the table onto your greatest ally's lap especially when other global powers to ally with are currently run by a crack smoking monkey.The fact is the outcome was entirely driven by driving voter manipulation on exactly those groups of people and I think that people need to reflect upon that, look in the mirror and shake their heads at themselves.I mean it's not like there isn't a lot of evidence around of this. And it's not like some of us haven't worked for the damn companies in question. I cite:https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Vote-Leave-50-Million-Ads.pdfAggregate IQ / SCL / CA were hired to influence the outcome of the vote, pollsters and analytics companies were hired to measure the effectiveness of the campaigns across target groups, this fed back into AIQ/SCL/CA. They can then analyse the trends. Eventually this allowed enough voters to be pushed over the edge. It was quite a successful campaign and a groundbreaking use of technology.But the racists, the idiots and the predisposed were the easiest to manipulate.I will say the above contains a significant portion of my family.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 11:31:11 am
content: Someone else already wrote 'people seem to vote against their own best interest'. Referenda are a bad idea. People use them to vote 'no' to the government because no government can live up to the promises made. However I do believe that if you vote for a bunch of people and give them 4 years to do the job then let them do their jobs and shut up about it. Vote again when it is time. Given the aftermath of the Brexit referendum the Dutch government has revoked the laws allowing a referendum.Given the shortage of work force in the EU (*) I think a lot of people from the UK will be able to work inside the EU. Even after a hard brexit it should be reasonably simple to iron out some kind of deal between the EU and the UK to take care of any income tax issues.* In the Netherlands alone there is a shortage of 50000 people to work in restaurants and this shortage is expected to double in the next 5 years.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 11:31:42 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 27, 2019, 09:49:22 amCome on.The UK declared article 50 more than two years ago. More than enough time to negotiate anything, one should assume.Negotiations - at least to what we hear over here - were rather unambitioned on the UK side at least in the beginning (the EU was mostly told what the UK does not want instead of any clear indicationwhatthey want), TM accepted the deal eventually while HoC denied it but also declared they would not allow withdrawal without a deal. Now BJ appears to target exactly that and blames the EU for it.What would you do in case you met such a 'straightforward' negotiation partner?Good luck regarding the US trade agreement. I wouldn't expect Trump to have as much patience.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 11:44:45 am
content: This was discussed to death in another thread. The UK as a whole does not know what it wants, cannot articulate what it wants and when it does say something it involves things that are contradictory and impossible. It is like trying to reason with a child throwing a tantrum.And, yes, wish you good luck with a trade treaty with America. Ask the Kurds if you want to have any indication of what American promises are worth. I hope you like chlorinated chicken because that's what you're going to be eating.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 12:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: mfro on August 27, 2019, 11:31:42 amBJ's only obvious desire to bluff his way out of this mire with his political career and income intact. That means shifting as much blame to the EU as possible while maintaining a credible attempt at doing something more than TM did and not inflaming all the brexiteers (and avoiding the bad press about his wife beating). He's basically the cartoon megalomaniac who's master plan gets knocked down at the end of each episode by some meddling kids.The whole thing is a joke to the point that it has totally murdered political satire.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 02:56:26 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 27, 2019, 09:49:22 amThe deal negotiated by our politicians which our politicians repeatedly voted against (even the ones who negotiated it voted against it).The truth of the matter is that the referendum was so badly worded it is undeliverable in any form, there was no framework to build upon from that result because everyone wanted a different form of leave and all we had was hot air and vague promises of jam and honey ahead.There's still no consensus on what form leaving will take and the goalposts have shifted so much none of the promises made before the referendum bears any resemblance to where we are now (up shit creek without a paddle and rapidly losing our boat too)

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 07:20:35 am
content: Quote from: mfro on August 27, 2019, 11:31:42 amI think there's a misunderstanding, I don't think what I said discounts any of that!

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 07:55:49 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 28, 2019, 07:20:35 amI apologise - I read this as evil EU forced PMs into a moral conflict they withstood heroically...Obviously not.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:11:19 am
content: Will be super easy in the UK. They will need tons of people too..Cut up chickens.Clean HotelsDo plumbingDrive trucks and Buses..In fact if you are happy to work hard, work will be easy to come.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:22:41 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on August 28, 2019, 08:11:19 amExactly as some posts above someone was saying that the Netherlands there were a shortage of workers to work in Restaurants. Now the problem is that most people that go into another countries don't want to that kind of work, they want to work in the same area as the ones they worked in their home country.Some years ago we had lots of Ukraine and Moldavia exodus into Portugal, most of them were fairy well educated as engineers and teachers that ended working in cleaning houses and buildings or working in the construction work as Masons or Plasterers. Why? Because the Portuguese didn't want to do that kind of hard work. It is and will always be like that in most of developed rich countries.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:48:47 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 28, 2019, 08:22:41 amInteresting. Here in town it feels like 95% of the bin trucks crews are Portuguese...

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 08:53:15 am
content: Quote from: mfro on August 28, 2019, 08:48:47 amLot of Portugese in the Port of Antwerp as well

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 09:06:43 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on August 28, 2019, 08:53:15 amExactly, in their own country they don't do that, because it's a bad job, but then when they are the foreigners they do anything to eat. Ask that same Portuguese if they will do the same job in their own country? Mostly if all will say No, Never...But whatever, let me end my offtopic because it doesn't proof anything or add anything meaningless to the subject in question being discussed.