Things that do not make economic sense - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 04:56:58 pm
content: Here's an example:Practically all entry level chinese multimeters have manual ranges. I wonder, how having a big rotary switch with so many contacts is cheaper than having a simpler switch and letting an IC take care of the ranges?And another example:I recently saw a nice looking radio-MP3 player in an aluminium enclosure on ebay. It was selling for just $10, shipping included!If I wanted to make something similar myself, 10 bucks would just barely cover the cost of the enclosure alone. How can the Chinese sell stuff that cheaply?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:04:31 pm
content: QuoteTear down the meter and you will know why.QuoteThe key chip in those things go for cents each. typically they are a 8051 core + dma + dsp / mpn decoder and sometimes uart / gpio pins / dac and of course usb. Would have made a nice usb/uart bridgeQuoteMaking millions of it vs. making one or two of it;and be willing to work harder and accept lower margins.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 05:16:03 pm
content: Wives, a cleaner and cook work out far cheaper once you factor in the divorce.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 06:09:51 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on November 19, 2014, 05:16:03 pmOh KJDS, I fearsomethingis missing in your life

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 06:23:55 pm
content: I fear he is speaking from experience.........

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 06:30:16 pm
content: Quote from: Yago on November 19, 2014, 06:09:51 pmNagging?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 06:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 19, 2014, 06:23:55 pmIf memory don't fail me, he is.Memory did fail me indeed, was thinking about another member.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 06:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: fubar.gr on November 19, 2014, 04:56:58 pmThe switch is made of molded plastic parts. The case, the cam (if any) and the knob. Any number of positions can be molded in, at no cost to the production of the molds or parts. The contacts are spring metal on PCB, and the PCB of course can be made with any number of positions etched on it, at no added cost.The cost of selector, case and PCB is borne by all competitors in that space (you can't have a multimeter -- at least one marketably recognizable -- without any of these three fundamental aspects), so the cost comes to materials reduction (what's the cheapest per strength resin, and how little of it can they get away with?) and BOM cost. Saving half a cent on the non-autoranging ASIC is the clear winner, then.And that chip, in turn, is probably something like an ICL7107 -- ancient LED/LCD display driver with analog input, with the added features of volts/amps/ohms ranges (depending on how many resistors they afforded to place around it). Such chips have been around for decades, so basically no one is paying NRE on them, they're as cheap as the silicon they're made on.Which is a general rule of semiconductors -- compare an IRF540 to a modern device of the same (Vds, Rds(on)) ratings; the new device has far smaller capacitances because of process optimization and miniaturization. The die might be 1/4 the size, but the cost is the same, because just damned everybody makes those ancient parts!QuoteNRE: enclosure for example. Maybe you'd spend $500 getting the 3D model machined from bulk aluminum. Or $200 for a handful of CNC cut / bent parts. Or between, say, $0-10 per part getting them molded (sand castings), but you still need $200+ for the machined or molded (stereolithography) pattern to start from. Or upwards of $20,000 for a real serious die set, made of machined and polished tool steel, for pressing/punching (sheet) or molding (die cast) parts. Now, this last method, making the dies, has per-part costs hardly above the cost of material alone, so it's the obvious winner in quantity. But there's no freaking way you can get anywhere close to that in single quantities, even if you spend three months with a die grinder making the molds in your free time!Supply chains: volume pricing. In large enough quantities, parts may come in straight from the manufacturer, no distributor middle-man/men at all. This saves usually 40% straight away (business / retail markup), plus distributor inventorying and transportation. Though it also costs your own production's stocking overhead and all that.Manufacturer preferred pricing. Often, one manufacturer will attempt to sell you their alternatives to competing parts you're already using. And they will undercut their catalog prices for you, even at moderate quantities. One example I've seen: DAQ board, 12 bit 80MSa/s ADC, two channels, migrating to four. Old part: National, 3.3V CMOS, dual, 0.8W, like $40 in 100s. Proposed alternative: Analog Devices, 1.8V CMOS, quad, 0.3W, like $37 in 100s. Digikey stock price was something like $60 each -- still a win over using two of the old device, but the new price (which was quoted through Arrow I believe) was unequivocally better, besides the other gains like power dissipation (not that that was a concern on this project, but it still helps with thermal management and routing).Tim

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 07:11:53 pm
content: 'Climate Change'Sorry, I had to go there, the opening was perfect. Now, back to electronics.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 10:37:56 pm
content: I have the impression that China buys obsolete production lines for scrap value and basically completely rebuilds those "obsolete" factories as cheap as possible.Look at those aluminium enclosures for example. Usually the quality of extrusion isn't very good, it looks like it was made on a 20 year old machine. But it doesn't really matter for that application, nobody is going to complain about caved in sidewalls on a $10 mp3 player. The fact that it has an aluminium caseat allis it's selling point.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 12:40:49 am
content: Quote from: KJDS on November 19, 2014, 06:30:16 pmGo HJDS !

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 03:55:27 pm
content: Others have said it already, but while it last, you should take advantage of it. It won't last forever.In nearly 20 years of buying low cost no name made in china products, then the last 12 years direct from China via eBay, the quality of components has deteriorated badly as well as a huge rise in counterfeit or fraudulent devices, so I no longer buy electronics direct from China via eBay, unless I see a nice box. As you mention the chassis alone is often worth more than you'd buy locally, include also Chinese knobs and low amperage wiring.The big bargain I find from China these days are just the project boxes.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-Plastic-Enclosure-Case-DIY-Electronics-Project-Box-141016-JNBB-/201195768898?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2ed833cc42My goal is $0.50 to $1 each delivered regardless of size.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 10:07:49 pm
content: QuoteThe US healthcare system?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 10:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on November 20, 2014, 10:07:49 pmin 1962, Phil Ochs wrote the lyricsHooray for the A.M.A.And for us doctors gluts of higher payIf you can't afford my bill don't you tell me that you're ill'Cause that's the free enterprise wayPlus ca change

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 10:45:32 pm
content: QuoteAbsolutely. We need, desperately, low quality / low cost healthcare options now.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 11:18:39 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on November 19, 2014, 10:37:56 pmThere used to be a lot of that, but its time has largely passed because there is less left to scavenge. For example, 20 years ago the western printing industry was collapsing. Many companies bought advanced new printers not long before their collapse, in an effort to improve their fortunes. I met two guys around that time - a buyer and an engineer. The buyer toured the western bankruptcy auctions, picking up every newish printer, and shipping it to China. With few local bidders, they usually bought at bargain basement prices. The engineer did all the strip down and rebuild needed to get these things up and running in China. So China upgraded to the latest technology at low cost, further straining the remaining western printers. A similar pattern has occurred in a number of industries.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 11:39:42 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 20, 2014, 10:45:32 pmPart of the problem is that the insurence companies dictate much of what they(doctors) must charge and its an all of nothing system. Either the doctors must follow the pricing the insurence companies set, or they cant accept insurence period. Of course the majority of people are kinda afraid to go without insurence so the doctors who dont accept dont fare too well and now everyone is required to have insurence.However, last I saw, about 1/3 of the doctors in the US were planning on dropping insurence because of what has happened. There was one story of a doctor that decided to stop accepting insurence, the price for a simple visit to him was only $50. As opposed to the $100-150 that I have seen Thats a whole off topic subject though.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 12:30:12 am
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on November 20, 2014, 10:07:49 pmHa! Yes. I can tell you from the perspective of an insider that this is absolutely true.We spend far more money per capita than any other country but have worse outcomes than all other wealthy "developed" countries and worse than many undeveloped countries.The reasons are complex and partly historical. But the bottom line in why it hasn't changed despite recognition of the problems for many years now is a combination of cronyism (insurance industry , big pharma, and medical device manufacturers power) and ideological opposition to any form of universal health care system.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 12:35:58 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 20, 2014, 10:45:32 pm... And paid with other people' money.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 12:47:06 am
content: Quote from: zapta on November 21, 2014, 12:35:58 amNot much different than what we have now which is low quality (but very expensive health care) - being paid for by the public to enrich the well connected few...

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 12:47:11 am
content: Too many malpractice lawsuits prevent this from happening.Insurance for hospitals and medical staff is probably at it's highest, so that they can protect themselves against any mishap.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 12:57:52 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on November 21, 2014, 12:47:11 amMyth...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-belk/medical-malpractice-costs_b_4171189.html

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 01:19:54 am
content: If you read the article he states that he orders a lot of tests so he won't get sued, so that's part of it as well.It's good that it has gone down, but the reason why it went down is the tons of unnecessary tests, so no matter what, healthcare in the US is still expensive.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 01:27:31 am
content: QuoteThat's not as big of a problem, in my view.The biggest issue is that the recipients of healthcare services (=patients) don't bear the cost of providing such services. If I don't bear the cost of going for the most expensive doctors for the most expensive procedures with the most expensive drugs, I will go all the way.We really should have the patients bear a more consequences of his/her healthcare decisions.QuoteMost of my doctors don't take insurance. Most doctors in my town don't take insurance. Most have signs explicitly refusing medicare / medicaid patients.So in a way, we are seeing more Chevys (public healthcare), together with mostly BMWs (private insurance). Aka the UK model.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 01:35:52 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 20, 2014, 10:45:32 pmThey are doing well. It is the electronics industry and Moore Law that need fixing. You cannot find an industry that pumps in billions to build their plant (wafer) and staffed with armies of PHDs, yet ending up loosing billions and at the end still have to foot billions for people to take over. Come on, guys, don't bring the world down with us.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 01:39:43 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 21, 2014, 01:27:31 amWhere do you live ?I've practiced medicine in 4 different states, in both big cities and small towns and with the exception of a handful of doctors practicing "concierge medicine" everyone takes insurance - both private and medicare. Medicaid acceptance is variable since in many cases it does not even pay enough to cover costs.One thing that you do see often - doctors who are not accepting *new* medicare patients - but that is very different than not taking medicare at all.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 02:10:06 am
content: Over here we used to have private/public healthcare but that was reformed into one system. The basic insurance is required for everyone over 18 but people are free to upgrade their insurance package if they want.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 03:47:14 am
content: Quote from: saturation on November 20, 2014, 03:55:27 pmBlimey, they are cheap! Just got 10 off for GBP £5.60 or so delivered.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 03:48:55 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 21, 2014, 01:27:31 amThat assumes that health problems are always - or even often - due to a "decision".Long story short, last year I had to take my partner to the ER @ 3am for what was initially suspected to be a burst ovarian cyst. 2 ER visits, 3 hospital admissions (total 5-6 days), and 3 surgeries later, they now consider that's she's almost certainly free of the rare ovarian cancer the pathology found after the first operation.Luckily the gyn-oncology team at our local Women's hospital is considered to be in the top few world-wide for that specific type of cancer.Total out-of-pocket cost to us? About $1000 (most of which was for a private room during one stay)*. Yes, we pay for that in our taxes. At the time, 1.5%. It's now gone up to 2%, and we still don't care...Oh, and we have private health insurance. We could have opted to see the top specialist privately, but it was actually easier (for both him and us) for my partner to be seen as a public patient - amongst other things, that way she got full access to his specialist team and all the support services that the public hospital provides.I know people in the US I could ask how much they'd expect to pay for that - but I don't bother anymore. Half of them go off on a rant on how our system is socialist and people should be forced to bear the burden of their own poor health decisions, and the other half cry just thinking about how they can barely afford going to the doctor...(* plus about another $200-$300 for parking!)

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 04:01:32 am
content: ...as for the insane USA wealthcare system, don't the GOP and Tea Party nutters understand that they are already paying almost DOUBLE per capita in taxation and insurance compared to the entire NHS system in the UK is paid for on taxes per capita alone, purely to deny wealthcare to the middle classes who are forced to find an employer with a tied insurance company to co-pay for (and one that may allow such extravagance as birth control!). The USA system is a total fuck up and nobody who is sane in the rest of the first world can understand it at all...We have private healthcare in the UK too - so the rich can still mingle with a better class of sick people if that is what they want. Insurance policies like BUPA to pay for it too!

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 04:25:04 am
content: As this has turned into the insane USA wealthcare thread, as it clearly does not make any economic sense...Some very interesting reading for those GOP fanatics in the good ole' USA, obsessed with Communist, red-under-the-bed, McCarthy socia-oh-lized book-reading yuropean healthcare...Yeehaw!! Check out the bottom of page 7!Also, any republicans that still think, so what it's the principle that counts - we don't want to pay for anyone that doesn't look after themselves -Ok, it's the Guardian, but just compare the USA to the UK taxpayer expenditure alone. Then gawp at the trivial increase for private healthcare in the UK to the doubling in the USA, because you all need it so much to defeat the commies - that no longer exist.Now I am actually a libertarian right winger at heart, but only if the markets are free and not stitched up and utterly corrupted as they are in the USA. I also believe major infrastructure is something the government (and I mean a small government) can spend our taxation on.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 04:42:13 am
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on November 21, 2014, 03:48:55 amI find it interesting that the one developed country which does make large numbers of people bear the healthcare costs of poor lifestyle choices also is also the one with the worst levels of obesity.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 04:56:33 am
content: I rather deal with the obese than the obsessedAt least the first are more fun and jolly.