uCurrent shipment issues to European countries - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: kjs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 07:54:38 am
content: After reading Davids blog and his comment that he got far to many returns from Germany and some other European countries I was a bit puzzled and investigated a bit. Fortunately I found someone in Germany who was lucky enough to get his delivered and I could ask him what was included in the shipment.First problem is that for everything which exceeds €22 (product plus shipping cost) USt (VAT/TVA/GST) of 19% (Germany) or similar (18-20%) in other EU countries have to be paid. If the recipient doesn't pay on time the goods are returned. If the shipping cost isn't shown they will estimate it which can be much higher than the real cost.Next issue is declaration of goods. For all European Economic Area (EEA) countries which is more than the EU itself all electronic goods imported have to have a RoHS declaration as well as a CE declaration in the shipment. As the uCurrent doesn't have a voltage specification below 50VAC and 75VDC it has to at least fulfil the the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) Directive. This has to be shown either by a test report summary from an accredited lab or in case of self-certification by the tests performed in accordance with the directive. If these 3 declarations and the CE marking are missing there's a good chance that the shipment gets turned around and goes back to Australia. Getting these test performed by an accredited lab will run anywhere from €1800 to €5000.......The German customs office just seems to be more efficient in catching these things than their neighbours. They seem to catch less.....At least the shipment to the guy which got his through didn't have any of these declarations included. He paid the 19% USt after he showed the total amount including shipping on his receipt and was lucky to be done.Recently I had a similar issue with PCB's into Switzerland. I added the RoHS declaration of the Shenzen board manufacturer and they had screwed it up and used lead HASL instead of the ordered and declared lead free HASL. The Swiss customs guys used their lead-scanner and I got the entire batch back, real fun (not).

author: Owen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 09:17:21 am
content: Quote from: kjs on April 06, 2015, 07:54:38 amThe LVD is only valid for devices with 75 V to 1500 V DC or 50 V to 1000V AC (input/output). Seehttp://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/lvd/index_en.htm...This shouldn't be the case. I would imagine that they've been returned because they didn't have any RoHS and CE Marks on it, as you said. If Dave would put these stickers on his µCurrents it wouldn't be a problem, i assume. I wouldn't even install the banana terminals and declare it as a electronic measurement kit, so there is no µCurrent avaible for Europe just a µCurrent kit.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 09:30:31 am
content: It always depends on the guy you have in Germany at the "Zollamt"At one time I even had a problem with a Logitech Keyboard K750, USA Version.That one did not have a CE sign on the outside of the box and they did not want to give it to me for hazard reasons.Luckily, I found the CE sign on the Keyboard and I finally was allowed to take it.But, if it is declared as a "Research kit" you can get almost anything, even if it does not have a CE sign.I really do not mind paying the fee and the VAT and I would rather pay more...But the hassle here where I live in Germany is terrible, each time I go there to pick something up.Long waiting lines and horrible service and try to explain to some of these people an Oscilloscope or a current clamp probe or an LCR meter.At one time I got a package from Japan with a small instrument and the seller (probably knowing the trouble with the German Zoll) declared on the outside of the box and on the invoice: "adult plastic toy" !It was delivered to my house without being opened up for inspection.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 09:38:23 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on April 06, 2015, 09:30:31 amthat's hilarious !btw. delivering in disassembled state (populated PCB, separate box and screw terminals) and declaring it as electronic parts should work for the whole EU.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 10:02:41 am
content: I don't think you can avoid EMC directive by simply shipping things that require some assembly or by declaring it as "only for research": otherwise any company would do the same to dramatically cut the design costs (think only about the shielding cages on a pcb) and certification procedure times.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 10:10:44 am
content: Quote from: mcinque on April 06, 2015, 10:02:41 amthe "any" company has usually end customers requiring a fully functional product - so they simply can't do it. according to your assumption every part would need EMC , CE... whatever. and we know it's not the case - the final product must be compliant , not the parts.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 10:32:26 am
content: If I declare the need for research and development, I can almost buy anything in parts, as long as I buy it for my company.Only the final end product has to fulfill the requirements for end usersAt least in Germany that is the case.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 11:07:46 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on April 06, 2015, 09:38:23 amNext thing to be sent to Dave will have that as the contents description. so as to comply with the inside I will of course add something of that nature that I have lying around, electronic of course...........

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 11:12:14 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on April 06, 2015, 10:10:44 amOf course no, we all know that only the final product need CE and EMC since any CE or EMC compliance in the single parts has no value when they are put toghether, as they become a new "device" that requires a proper testing.Quote from: rob77 on April 06, 2015, 10:10:44 amYes. And you can't avoid compliance tests by simply selling a final product splitting it in parts.The objective of the directive is to have products that does not interfere with each others, so it would be silly to allow a product to be excluded from the directive only because you are selling with some parts to be put together. Think about a 10W 88-108 MHz broadband FM transmitter in kit: do you think you can avoid troubles only because you're selling it as a kit? Do you think that you will be not sued since it's the final user that put together the parts and power it?If you provide all the parts for the final product (so JUST by assembling them you have a functional product) you are selling a final product.and if it's for a final user (not a company) you can't avoid EMC directive.I strongly believe that many companies would avoid EMC compliance if they could.Quote from: HighVoltage on April 06, 2015, 10:32:26 amThis is an EU directive, we cannot talk about Germany only.Yes, you can declare a product is for research and development, but only if you are a company, and by taking your responsibilities (it's NOT only a "not my problem" phrase). But if you are an "end user", like an hobbist, how can you declare that?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 11:45:26 am
content: But only Germany appears to have problems. BTW, I have had no problems importing Broadcast FM kits and I am not talking about basic toy kits, it is only their use which regulated.Years are there was a court case were one radio pirate proved that his transmitter had a alternative use. He cooked toast on it. So the judge let him off. He much later got done for being a pedophile.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 12:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on April 06, 2015, 09:30:31 amProbably works only for items coming from Japan...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 01:39:56 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on April 06, 2015, 11:12:14 amTherein lies the problem. A "directive" is only a bare framework, it is up to the local legislatures of each member state to determine how a directive is implemented in detail.(In addition, in certain states like France, for example, they can also exhibit local selectivity on implementation by pronouncing "Bof".)

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 02:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on April 06, 2015, 09:38:23 amAny idea to what point can this rule be applied for a semi-disassembled item (up to the extreme case, e.g. everything has been mounted except ICs have not been plugged into their sockets) ?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 03:02:13 pm
content: This thread made to appreciate the lesser government control and taxing here. It's also a reminder that we shouldn't take it for granted.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 03:55:56 pm
content: I remember just before the Raspberry Pi was launched, and they went into partnership with Farnell and RS Components. Up until this point they had only intended making a few thousand, and there was no real thought about CE / EMC testing, but Farnell wisely decided that they should do the whole RF anechoic chamber thing, and it was all a bit of a stressful rush. Anyway, the point was that the RaspPi was intended to be used as a component, or for experimentation rather than an end-user item, and the legal advice had been that no testing or compliance marking was necessary.It is not unlike agricultural vehicles. Farmers here in the UK (and probably a lot of other places too) can basically run any heap of junk on the road, with no need for Department of Transport testing, emissions regulations or whatever. The assumption is that the person using it knows what they are doing.I think in this case that Dave probably needs to write on the packaging that the contents are industrial test equipment which require some user assembly.

author: kjs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 06:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 06, 2015, 03:02:13 pmThat's unfortunately only partially true. Yes, tariffs for stuff from China are usually 0% as everything comes from China anyhow. US companies have long and successfully lobbied to have that zero tariff. Try to import from other countries and it also roars its ugly head.It is also a question whether a government should look out for their citizen or not. A middle ground between what the EU does and the US way most likely would be the best. There are also many good things in how the EU protects buyers compared to the way the US is protecting mainly the big money.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 07:29:46 pm
content: What I cannot understand is why Dave is having all these problems yet I get packages from Mouser and various Chinese EBay sellers without problems. The last package was an LCD display costing about seventy Euro and I never paid a cent in duty.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 07:45:40 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on April 06, 2015, 11:45:26 amIf you was an end user for those kits, it's not your problem. Any issue about the compliance it's never an end-user's matter. It's always a manufacturer (or importer/reseller) responsibility. Anyone that sells the product. Customs are strange,sometimesthey fear that someone could act as a private just to import non-CE devices, to resell them as a company.Quote from: Towger on April 06, 2015, 11:45:26 amWell, it reminds me when Homer Simpson uses his gun to open beer cans.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 07:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on April 06, 2015, 07:29:46 pmit depends on the laziness of the customsbtw... upto 22Eur it's no fees, 22-150 Eur you have to pay local VAT and above 150 it's VAT + customs duty. i think it's the same for the whole EU.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 08:37:50 pm
content: Unless I'm mistaken, 'customs duty' does not depend on the item price* but solely on the country of origin (what is meant here is the country where the item was manufactured).*: No customs duty or VAT is levied for items that don't exceed 22 EUR.I have never heard of a 150 EUR rule. You're right, it's 150 EUR (except certain goods like alcohol & tobacco), and none is charged if the duty amount is less than 10 EUR. Has this finally been harmonized? Countries may decide to not charge if the VAT amount is below a certain amount e.g. 5 EUR in Finland.You can usually look up the TARIC codes (tariff code) on the customs websites of a country or region likeEuropean Unionorworldwide(this webpage seems to have an error in the language selection).Stuff from AUS or US to Europe is considered third-country and depending on the item (fx. CRO's have duty, DSO don't) they will have additional duty added before VAT is added.Edit: spelling and duty correction

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 08:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on April 06, 2015, 07:29:46 pmJonestronics is honest on the package with the price. Chinese put on "Gift Electronic 1$" for something 30$.Or even worse, there was no declarations form AT ALL on the outside of my package.Jonestronics doesn't use low-priority shipping. If you use UPS or DHL (somewhat faster than bulk) in china, you'll most likely also have customs problems.Australia isn't china. I would estimate far less packages from Australia than from China. The average value should also be higher from Australia.Jonestronics also names the company. Indicating something was sold. Otherwise make it name "sample".If you want to ship to europe, use DHL or UPS shipping. Where the package (should) stay with DHL or UPS the entire trip. They pay customs in advance for the receiver if they do not have an account with them. Normal mail will transfer the package through several companies, making it slow and badly traceable.(btw: see the app AfterShip)

author: kjs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 09:04:24 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on April 06, 2015, 07:29:46 pmMouser and Digikey do all the import stuff for you and pay the taxes and duty. They even have European offices even though the stuff usually ships from the US. That's why you never have issues with them. The Chinese sellers usually declare the stuff as gift and at a very low value. I have seen several of them been caught and returned but at the volume which comes in they can't catch them all.Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 06, 2015, 08:57:23 pmIf you take the UPS or Fedex or DHL prices for shipping it is usually cheaper to buy local and also get some warranty. That makes all the good deals moot unless it's a high price item.If I buy on alislow or fleabay I expect the goods to take 4-8 weeks until they show up. If I need it faster I bite the bullet and go to a real distributor like Mouser or Digikey.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:43:23 pm
content: I bought a 550€ Logic Analyzer from Australia, shipped with DHL it bounced twice against the German Zoll/Custom (first they don´t know what a logic analyzer is, second they asked questions about the sender), now it will arrive soon.My guess I will pay about 200€ on custom theater. Keep you posted.I paid 143€ on custom.BTW Germans loves rules and following them (with such a passion it amaze me every time), the rest simply doesn't matter for them. I have some issues to live in this country: just got 100€ fine and 1 point on my driver license because I slowly cross the red light with my bicycle. I get a fine form the German police once every year at least, it is part of the system and is nothing I can do to avoid it.And yes at the end I love to live in Germany, everything is so efficient and work so well (compare to other country I was). Breathtaking.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:52:55 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on April 06, 2015, 11:45:26 amCorrect, no other country has this issue.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 01:39:52 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on April 06, 2015, 01:39:56 pmI would say that the problems in Germany are more of a local nature - the Zollamt is certainly not equipped to check whether or not the device is EMC compliant or not. They only check the paperwork acompanying the package - what is the thing (=which part of the tax/custom code applies), its value (=how much is the VAT and customs fee). If it is electronic, does it have the right signs/stickers attached (CE, ROHS, recycling signs)? If it doesn't, they hold it and/or you have to pay some default fee - which could be calculated from an arbitrary administratively set amount, like 300 euro.The problem is the rather anal German implementation of the ROHS/CE directives and their penchant for "Ordnung" - you could mail even a smelly excrement in a box, but the papers need to be in order. Ordnung muss sein!I didn't have any issues importing stuff from China and other places to neither Switzerland, Denmark or France, with the exception of the customs and VAT fees here and there. Which is to be expected, but only Switzerland levied these systematically - in Denmark I was almost never asked to pay anything and in France it is really rare for small items. The only exception is if it is not sent by regular post but by UPS, Fedex, DHL or some such - they will always declare the goods for you and will always collect the fees + their own processing fee.I know that Slovakia will hold the package on arrival until you pay the VAT + customs (if applicable, I think packages under 200 euro declared value are exempt), but I have never heard about them checking for ROHS or CE marks, unless it is some form of mass goods import (like a palette of Microcurrents).So make sure that you have the customs declaration attached, the content is declared correctly along with the price of the goods (excluding the shipping, customs fees are calculated from the value of the goods, not the cost of sending it) and that you put the CE and ROHS marks on the box. Both you can self declare, but considering the shipment is from overseas where the EU directive doesn't apply, nobody would check your papers - our market is full of USB phone chargers without CE or with fake/untested CE, for example.One alternative is to sell the item as a kit of parts, then the entire CE and recycling mess doesn't apply, only ROHS.Another one is to find a reseller in Europe and let them handle the issue. Adafruit and Sparkfun do that, for example. It is a win-win situation - the manufacturer/vendor doesn't need to bother with the local formalities, the customers get to pay only local shipping fees instead of potentially exorbitant overseas ones and the package arrives (usually) a lot faster.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 01:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: kjs on April 06, 2015, 09:04:24 pmThat's not completely true. Digikeywill notpay the taxes and duty, that is left to you, the recipient. They just send it from their US warehouse in a "hail Mary" style, letting you sort out any local messes. What they do right is that they declare the goods properly and are likely well known/registered with the customs, so you are unlikely to have issues. However, should anything crop up, good luck.Digikey's "office" in France is pretty much only a phone/fax line and the French mutation of the website. All business is done directly from the US.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 02:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 06, 2015, 08:57:23 pmAnd make this a huge pain in the ass to your customer. If it is send by Post/EMS, I will need just to pay the duties in the post office/ to the delivery man, that's all. If DHL/UPS, I will need to gather a shitload of papers and make not so short trip to the customs (a bit outside the city). Wait in a queue for an hour, talk with them another 30 minutes and if I got lucky I pay the duties by credit card, cash not accepted. Then I need to send a scan to the DHL/UPS and wait for next day delivery or visit their office personally and wait another 40 minutes until they will find my package. Of course DHL/UPS can offer a clearance too. You just need to pay about 30 EUR to them, provide even bigger pile of papers, waste a few days in total in this process and you will get the package.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 02:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 07, 2015, 01:39:52 pmNo, they can not test it but what they do instead, they send it to one of there agencies to test and then you get a letter if you are allowed to pick it up or not.It is just a hassle that nobody needs.I have lived in many countries, but Germany must be the toughest when it comes to importing things.Some China based companies got smarter and have a european shipping center in the UK.So, lately when I order something from China, it was first shipped to the UK and then as a EU package from the UK to Germany.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 08:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on April 07, 2015, 02:51:41 pmDo they really do that? The testing I mean. That would cost an enormous amount of money - a single run of just EMC compliance testing (part of CE mark) is in thousands of euro - which nobody would ever pay for individual, non-business imports.That's why I am suspecting more that they just check papers (rigorously).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 08:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 07, 2015, 02:28:29 pmOh yeah - that is a sure fire way to ensure I am not going to order from such company. DHL/UPS in Europe is an enormous PITA. Apart from all the paperwork and the outrageous processing fees they charge for handling the customs and tax formalities, they are a huge problem when it comes to delivery to non-business premises.Basically, if you are at work and the package is addressed to your home, the DHL/UPS/Fedex guy shows up and rings at your door at some random time between about 9AM to 5PM and then leaves. Without leaving a note (unlike normal mailman), they won't call you (a DHL man once told me that the driver has a phone but that they areexplicitly forbiddento call clients!) and good luck chasing the package up when you don't even know that there was a delivery attempt. And after 3 delivery attempts (that you have no clue about if you don't have a tracking number) the package is returned back to the sender. Yay ... (had that happen).I had also one (quite valuable) package being left with a neighbor without telling anyone or leaving a note, I had a package "delivered" to a depot 30km away, when asked WTF is that supposed to be, I was told I can just go and pick it up ... etc.Here in France they also outsource to subcontractors (who outsource to their subcontractors, etc.) - if a package goes missing or is misdelivered, good luck finding it in that chain. Had this happen with DHL (or UPS?) once and never more - they were extremely unhelpful, to put it politely. Basically, in their system the package was indicated as delivered and they were washing their hands over it - it wasn't their problem anymore. An overnight shipping took almost two weeks of phone calls to various delivery companies to track down, prying various internal tracking numbers from one in order to give to the next one in the chain. The best part was when one of them told me that they don't work with the original shipper, because it is their competitor (!) - despite handling their packages through a middleman ...If you must ship by these companies, at least do say so explicitly - then I will have the package sent to my workplace, if possible. Using these companies to deliver to private residences is just a nightmare.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 08, 2015, 08:40:30 pmExactly the opposite here, they even won't try to deliver to private address without calling you. So if there is no phone number on the package, they won't deliver unless you call them yourself (if you know the tracking number).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 07, 2015, 01:54:13 pmFor the UK, Digikey do collect taxes at the time of order- this has been the case for the last couple of years or so.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:39:15 pm
content: As regards CE mark, Dave could honestly apply it as there is zero chance of emissions from this product. Could be immunity issues but nobody is going to care about that.AFIK there is no requirement for Rohs marking - I think it now comes under CE marking anyway.The answer is probably to ship to Germany via another EU country

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 10, 2015, 08:36:22 pmIf I order from Digikey or Mouser and it is shipped by Fedex or DHL express, the shipping company does the filing of the import papers and collects the duty and taxes. I usually get a separate invoice from the shipping company a few days later and just pay them.Lately ebay USA has changed and during the checkout and payment to a seller, the import duty and VAT is calculated automatically and added to the payment. Then the US seller is getting a shipping address in New York and from there it is shipped to a central location in Germany. Then in Germany it is delivered with a local delivery company. Really convenient and no hassle and total delivery time is even faster. It seems like ebay is adapting to the problems with the German customs.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 09:45:59 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 10, 2015, 08:36:22 pmI think the reason is that they actually have some business in UK, so they have to collect VAT. In France they leave it to the recipient to pay at the post office/to the delivery man/by separate invoice, because they ship everything from the US (I was asked to fill some ITAR forms for 2 PIC18Fs!!!). In Denmark nobody bothered ...Quote from: HighVoltage on April 10, 2015, 08:49:38 pmYep, exactly the same to France. You forgot to mention that Fedex/DHL/UPS actually invoice you their processing fee for doing the customs too (normally that should be Digikey's/Mouser's duty to declare it). So in the end it can be pretty expensive.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 10, 2015, 09:45:59 pmYes, that is true but I rather pay the fee than stay in line at the customs office.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 07:51:55 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 10, 2015, 08:39:15 pmVery interesting for me, do you have any experience or example about this?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 08:36:53 am
content: Quote from: janoc on April 10, 2015, 09:45:59 pmI don't think they have any UK presence- I have no doubt that they changed due to complaints from customers - the old system where UPS collected the VAT was a major headache for some companies - Unless you had a UPS deferment account, the UPS guy had to have a cheque or card on delivery, something the avarage "goods-in" dept was not set up to do.With a UPS account it happens automatically & UPS bills monthly, but even that needs more work for the bean-counting dept.It gets even worse when shipping to different sites- e.g. a customer of min ordered some bits to be sent to me, and as mine was the delivery address the VAT got charged to my UPS account.QuoteI have no problem with that - given the existence of stupid US rules, it is much better for them to collect info just in case it's needed, to avoid delays. Mouser's method of holding the order to get info means 1-2 days' delay to an order.QuoteThat was never the case for the UK, where the UPS fee was paid by Digikey. The only oddity was that as well as VAT on the goods, you paid VAT in the notional value of the "free" delivery.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 09:00:10 am
content: As an amateur radio operator we have a similar problem here in germany. Due our license we are allowed to build, use and buy/sell equipment without the CE sign. With our ham license we had proven that we know what we do.BUT if we order stuff from outside germany and it wants to cross the border without a CE sign, the customs stops it. And you get a letter afterwards about it. No chance to drive there and to show them the license. They pretend to know what our license imply, they don't care, they don't want extra paperwork.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 09:49:30 am
content: Quote from: hammy on April 11, 2015, 09:00:10 amI don't know your HAM licensing process, but I know HAMs here that knows only what is a bulb lamp and a battery (you can guess what they know about designing electronics).Our HAM licensing is only written quiz based (no more voice interview), and requires only 60% correct responses to pass; so by reading a book with all the quizzes and the responses, with a little of luck you can get the 10% needed more than the 50% casual probability.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 10:51:11 am
content: Quote from: mcinque on April 11, 2015, 09:49:30 amWe have such HAMs too.This CE thing is based on the fact that a HAM is allowed to build his own TRX (and related stuff). The right to transmit and the right to build all amateur radio related devices has the result that we are also allowed to buy, own and use stuff without CE. We can use it, we can improve it ... based on the fact that we should know what we do.In our country the rules say:"Amateurfunk ist Experimental Funkdienst der von Funkamateuren untereinander zu experimentellen und wissenschaftlichen Studien genutzt wird.""Amateur radio is an experimental radio service for experimental and scientific studies between amateur radio operators."Designing electronics, without CE, for an other market than amateur radio, with a commercial intention, is not allowed.But buying a uCurrent, for amateur radio measurements, is absolutely legal even without a CE sign!If you are not an HAM, or a company, the law "protects you". This means you cannot buy something without a CE sign.There are a lot of rules in germany. Some are good, some are bad, some are annoying ... and some are ignored.Quote from: mcinque on April 11, 2015, 09:49:30 amQuite similar. Three multiple choice tests with 75% correct answers. But some people just memorize the correct answers without the theory behind it. For the smaller license, "Klasse E", you have to learn ~800 questions, for the other "Klasse A" license we talk about ~1500 questions. During the test you have to answer ~100 questions (Class E) and ~120 questions (Class A).Cheershammy

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 10:54:40 am
content: Isn't it nice living in Europe?We don't have that problem in the 3rd world country that I live in.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 11:58:56 am
content: I doubt thatbuyingstuff without a CE sign is illegal, it's just thatsellingcertain products without a CE sign in the EU is forbidden.So of course every European citizen is allowed to buy stuff without a CE sign, it's just that nobody is allowed to freely sell products in the EU without the CE sign (or to be more exact: without their conformity to EU directives being checked and proven). So in the end, it doesn't really matter if you're a HAM or electrical engineer or whatever.This being said, noteverythingneeds the CE sign. E.g. basic components (like diodes) don't need it. The question is if a product fits into a certain group of product for which a directive exist. E.g. there is a regulation for toys, but for electronic stuff, mainly the EMC regulation is important. I would assume you could argue that something as low power as the uCurrent is not able to create any interferences on a scale that would make the EMC directive relevant. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.It's like with customs: you can discuss for weeks which product group a certain thing is and two customs officers will come up with three different possibilities.So the only safe way to not get into trouble is to get a CE sign and that's why a CE sign is on every crap even though it might not be needed.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 12:17:43 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on April 11, 2015, 11:58:56 amThe uCurrent can be self-certified for EMC emissions as it is obviously compliant with emissions standards by the nature of its design. There would be no need for any testing.Some idiot decided that the EMC directive should also cover immunity, which should just be a product quality issue, however enforcement authorities are going to be far less interested in that for products where there is no potential safety hazard if they fail to work correctly.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 01:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on April 11, 2015, 11:58:56 amI suppose that is correct. But on the other side shops for amateur radio stuff sell products without CE sign.Wimo is selling the X1M trx as a "kit" ->https://www.wimo.com/x1m_qrp_transceiver_e.html.With the note"The kit has no CE mark after completion. The finished device may therefore be operated only by licensed radio amateurs."So, maybe you are allowed to buy complex devices without CE sign, but you are not allowed to turn it on? But also the datasheet of an 1N4148 diode says"Meet all present and future national and international statutory requirements.". There is clearly something you have to fulfil bevore you are allowed to sell your diode to the market.I don't know, I suppose the truth is somewhere in the middle of all these laws and rules ...Anyway. The uCurrent does not have a CE sign and therefore Dave can not send it to us, because our customs are nitpicky.@dannyf: You are right, some countries overregulate everything.

author: MiataMuc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 09:39:28 pm
content: well, as far as I know, it is quite simple: if it is only parts, or a kit, it does not need any CE or other declarations. I always buy kits from chinese sellers, never things that are assembled. Never had any problem at customs office; only problem is insufficient declaration of price - I have to mail in the Paypal-Invoice to the customs office. On the other hand - it it was really important to me, I would just get a "Gewerbeschein" (found a company) - then you are allowed to import samples.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 11:07:13 pm
content: I fear that is not completely true. "Basic components" don't need a CE mark. Stuff like resistors diodes. A socket/outlet, lightswitch, motor, transformer or power supply needs a CE mark.As far as I understand. the rule is like something this- if the characteristics of the device depend onhowthe component is used, the component doesn't need a CE mark- if the safety of the component can be judged independently of the device it's used it, it needs a CE markI also fear that selling a kit doesn't really solve the CE problem. I mean it's likely that you can convince a customs officers that a kit doesn't need a CE mark, but I guess from a strictly legal point of view, it doesn't really matter if the device needs to be assembled or not. However I understand that at least the e-waste directive can't be applied to kits.As usual, the idea of the CE mark was well-intentioned. To allow only selling of products that cohere to some directives regarding safety, EMC etc. sounds like good idea.Then again, all the directives are terribly written and only consider the multi-million company which doesn't care about ten thousand Euro or so for a certification.There should be clearly defined exceptions for hobbyists, but I fear there aren't.Besides, Chinese sellers just stick a CE mark on the device and if it explodes, it will be impossible to find out from which backyard workshop it came. So the whole thing became somewhat pointless.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 02:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on April 11, 2015, 11:07:13 pmActually the directive itself is quite clear. The problem are the national implementations - the actual laws you have to follow. Some countries have the penchant for being more "Brussels than Brussels" and introduce things that go beyond and above what is actually demanded by the directive.BTW, hobbyists don't really need (and are not) to be concerned by these things. If you are not introducing a product into the EU market they don't apply to you - so it is completely fine to use leaded solder or not bother with EMC - nobody cares about what you do at home, as long as other laws are not broken. Who gets bitten are small companies and startups trying to get a new product on the market. That is rather unfortunate.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:15:50 pm
content: Ok, so by reading some posts, anyone can sell anything regardless of CE compliance, just by selling it as a kit (even an "idiot proof kit", like a complex board to be finished with only one or three components still to be soldered).If this would be true, even if you sell something that once assembled will crush every tv or radio signal in your neighborhood due to its emissions, you would get zero troubles from the autority, since you sell it as a kit.I strongly don't think so. Kits are not a solution against CE compliance.When you sell a "final" product, so a device that once built can work without the need of other than a power source, you are selling anapparatus, that must be CE.If you sell a part, something that once assembledit's not for a final use, but it's only somethingthat will be incorporated in a device, THAT's the part that doesn't need any CE. It's the final apparatus that must be compliant, and of courseonly if you're going to sell it.As a crude example, no one can be sued because is selling you potassium nitrate. You can use it in many ways. This can be identified as a harmless part.It will be more different if he sells you potassium nitrate together with a pipe, two caps, sugar and coal, with instructions on how to assemble them. This is a no more a harmless part, but an explosive device.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 06:41:20 am
content: You know CE is self-certification?There is no need for expensive certification tests by some third party.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 07:51:35 am
content: You know that if you declare your product compliant and then it's not, you will be sued for fraud?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 08:31:53 am
content: only if something happens and someone actually sues you.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 08:34:19 am
content: Quote from: mcinque on April 13, 2015, 07:51:35 amNo you won't.You won't be sued, and it's not fraud.There is specific legislation around CE marking, however serious penalties only apply where declarations have been intentionally falsified.There is also often a huge grey area over deciding which directives & standards apply, especially for niche or unusual products.Apart from in Germany, enforcement authorities are far too busy (and underfunded) dealing with stuff like fake cigarettes, dangerous toys and things that are actively dangerous to get involved.At least in the UK, the system is complaint based, so things are not going to be randomly checked.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 11:50:23 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 13, 2015, 08:34:19 amYou have indeed a ton of experience so your statement is probably much, much more solid than mine.But legally talking what's the difference between a CE declaration that is intentionally falsified (i.e. you know that the product isn't compliant and you declare is as compliant) and a CE declaration of a product that you areonly confidentto be compliant (but that wasn't tested, so anyone can not be sure about its compliance)?QuoteThe issue it's that a CE declaration of conformity it's a legally signed document, so if you state that a product is compliant to some directives and that product it's not, you are signing a false document.Here this is considered fraud, and if you do this kind of things you must pay a fine (from 5k to 20k euros). You will then be obliged to follow the certification process. And if your product is considered unsafe, you must retire it from the market and obtain the compliance before selling it again.QuoteOh, indeed.But what about jealous competitors doing some complaints only to get you in troubles?QuoteI think it's the same in every EU state. The issue is that almost any end-user electronic product must have a CE declaration to enter/move in EU, so you must attach that document to the product.EDIT: We all knows that Dave knows exactly how to build a compliant device, so he can declare its conformity without any worries, this is for sure. The point is that IMO, he must prepare a proper CE declaration and attach it to the uCurrent to solve any customs issue.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 07:20:23 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 13, 2015, 06:41:20 amUntil your product gets complained about by some irate customer or competitor.Thenyou will have a problem and you better have the test results on file.Of course, this is not something enforceable for products coming from outside of EU, with the manufacturer being outside of the jurisdiction. At worst the product could be banned from the market if found dangerous or causing interference.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 07:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on April 13, 2015, 11:50:23 amAIUI, the penalties can be significantly different, and jail time is only a possibility for the former.QuoteThe point is there is specific legislation regarding CE marking, so you would be charged under that, not general fraud laws.QuoteThis is often quoted but I don't know if it has ever actually happened. In the UK at least, it is enforced by Trading Standards, who usually have better things to do than listen to third-party complaints.QuoteI believe the only thing that has to be attatched is the CE mark - I don't recall what the situation is re. declaration of conformity, especially as user manuals tend to be online nowadays.

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 08:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 13, 2015, 07:46:54 pmMy recently-purchased laptop included a printed statement of CE conformity which says that the full declaration is on the web (with the rest of the manuals). I suppose they wouldn't have bothered printing that if it wasn't required.(And I'm not even in the EU.)

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 09:50:58 pm
content: To answer most of the points raised.RoHS marking is not required, in fact it is prohibited, as RoHS conformity is now REQUIRED for an item to be marked CE. The reason that RoHS marking is prohibited is that because CE marking includes RoHS compliance, adding a RoHS logo to a product implies that other products are not compliant when if they carry the CE mark they are by default.Any product placed on the market or imported that is covered by a CE directive must carry the CE mark. Finished electronic goods must conform to the EMC directive. Electronic components and parts that are used by a professional in the building of equipment are exempt. A graphics card to be fitted into a PC would need to be CE EMC compliant as it is to be installed in to a computer by the end user. A servo board used by an engineer to build a device is exempt as it is a requirement that if the manufactured equipment is placed on the market that the end product will be certified.Every EU country should be checking for CE compliance, in theory each product should include a declaration. In practice the authorities are primarily going to go after the large imports. A ship with 20 containers of mp3 players is far easier to check than 20,000 individual packages in the postal system. Different countries within the EU are different in how rigorously they apply the rules.Within the EU goods can travel freely as long as they are CE marked.When parcels are sent from outside the EU they should have a value and a tariff code. In the UK if the package is under £15 there will be nothing to pay. If the package is a gift valued under £36 there will be no charges. Marking a package as a gift is not a guarantee that no charges will be made, customs must be satisfied that it is a gift or they may levy a charge. Any package over £135 value, duty will be charged if the product is subject to duty. If the tariff code is not provided the officers will make their best guess as to what tariff code should be applied and therefore what duty.When the package arrives any tax and duty will be charged to you plus any fees added by the delivery agent. This is quite costly £8 for RoyalMail in the UK, even if it is just £1 tax that needs to be collected. To avoid this issue some senders send the parcel with tax pre-paid. This is how the likes of Mouser do it, VAT is applied to your order and UPS deliver the package having the tax already paid so no fees.

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2015, 01:18:19 pm
content: Please don't forget these two tings:to be conform with the CE regularities the item must have a user manual in the language of the country the product will be used.https://cemarking.net/user-manual-part-ce-marking/And.. don't forget the "Elektrogesetz". The law that regulates the waste management in Germany (there are similar laws in many other european countrys, but the one in germany is the worst).For Europe:http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/weee/index_en.htmGermany:http://www.elektrogesetz.com/elektrog.shtmlAccording to this law every person that brings a electronic device to the customer (the manufacturer or the importing person if not already done by the manufacturer) has to register every single device type (and even modules to be inserted in other devices) by the electronic-waste management foundation... and has to pay for it.The devices are to be registered by the national register "stiftung ear"https://www.stiftung-ear.de/en/(WEEE - on almost every european device you will find the weee sign and it's number). In reality CE as a self declaration can be done for many devices with only a few hours of work as a cost. But registering any paying for the weee will cost a minimum of ca 300-500€ per year - even when you are not selling at least one item.The introduction of this law killed many small electronic-companies here in germany. At least it is the main reason why i am still not selling my OCXO-Assembly for the HP 5316B Frequency Counter.http://salmanassar.c-ellwart.de/hp5316b/For a more or less private person it does not make any sense to pay such a lot of money for items you may sell only a few times per year.

author: ed!th
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 09:31:08 am
content: And let's add to the list the German Packaging Act:https://www.lizenzero.de/en/blog/german-packaging-act-in-the-uk-obligations-when-shipping-to-germany/The law also concerns the waste management but the one of packaging material. It is necessary to register in a dual system and license the packaging materialQuote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 13, 2015, 08:34:19 amIn case of the Packaging Act I can guarantee that it can be checked, I know many people having paid huge fees because of it. So, take care!

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: schopi68 on July 01, 2015, 01:18:19 pmThis only applies if you are selling electronics in Germany, not if you import electronics. As long as you just use it yourself, be it as a private consumer or as a company, it's fine. Same for the packaging act, EU law doesn't apply outside the EU, unless the third country voluntarily complies, as part of a trade deal, for example.If someone in Germany orders something from Dave, the sale happens in Australia under Australian law. All legal requirements in Australia for shipping electronics into the EU market or to Germany (if there where any) would still apply.Long story short, do a CE self-certification (for which you do need to compile the technical documentation), slap a CE-sticker on the case, put a crappy German Google Translate version of the manual and declaration of conformity in the package, and you're good.