Ethics of declaring repairs during resale - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cincin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 05:46:37 pm
content: Greetings!I've recently gotten into repairing electronics, for fun. I buy defective music gear, mostly, and tinker with it until I figure out what's wrong, source parts, repair, and usually end up selling it.I'm an honest person, and I like the people who buy from me to be happy with their purchases. As such, I should really declare everything I know about the gear I'm selling. However, talking about repairs in an ad tends to shy away potential buyers, when really it should be the other way around. After all, the unit has been looked over, cleaned, extensively tested, and all failing parts have been replaced with new ones, sometimes better ones. Marketing dictates I should say it's been "recently serviced", and keep it at that. "Recently serviced" comes across as positive, and actually spells out that someone tinkered inside, but it does not imply a previous defect...I realize only I can come to my own conclusions about my own ethics, but I"d be interested in hearing how others who resell repaired items feel about it. Do you divulge everything? Nothing? Somewhere in between? What sort of language do you use?Cheers!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 05:49:27 pm
content: If your repairs are good you could call it refurbished. If it shows signs of repairs you should note that it is repaired, though, otherwise you might get bad feedback and returns.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 06:21:45 pm
content: When I have sold repaired equipment I either call it refurbished or don't mention it unless there are visible signs of repair. With old equipment I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to have never been serviced. I do high quality repairs and stand behind my work though, I have no way knowing what your repairs are like.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 06:28:46 pm
content: OP doesn't mention where he is selling, but describing an item as refurbished on eBay is asking for trouble. Just describing it as "used" is a pretty big commitment for the seller. Did you really test all 100 functions after your repair? Verify every spec in the manual?My experience is that most buyers don't want to hear about repairs. I think it comes across as "I bought this cheap and marked it up". However, you can still mention them if you prefer. It's not an ethics issue.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 06:34:39 pm
content: IMHO it is better to call equipment refurbished or fully checked. More importantly offering a warranty works much better to sell especially on a platform where you can build up a reputation.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 06:48:04 pm
content: A warranty? If you're a professional seller, sure. Of course. But if you're selling some used gear as an individual, who would be as crazy as to offer a warranty?The whole point of buying used stuff is that it's cheaper than new, and you take the risk. If you buy from a pro, then yes the pro *has* to provide minimal warranty and is liable. But the pro will sell used stuff at a higher price. From an invidiual, there is no such thing, and it's usually cheaper than from a pro (else it's absolutely useless risk.)Since it's virtually impossible to know what the history of some used gear is, as a buyer, whatever the seller tells you (and actually knows) is all you'll get (again if seller is an individual.) You know it and it's part of the deal.As a seller, it's up to you and your own sense of ethics. While you may not even know everything the used stuff you're selling has been through - and again that's fair - the little you know, I would personally be upfront with it. Especially if this little includes repairs. You may actually advertise those as a plus. If that drives some buyers off, so be it. The ones that won't be driven off may actually appreciate your honesty *and* knowing exactly what you did on it and understanding what were the weak points if any and that those may have been addressed.And of course it's all a matter of proportion. While the above would make sense (at least for me) for something a bit expensive, if you're selling something for $100 or less, that wouldn't be reasonable to even bother as long as you know that the thing works properly *when* you sell it.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 07:08:03 pm
content: I sell them as repaired and will offer detailed descriptions of the repairs if asked. Most actual customers (the ones that buy from me) are more interested in the results. I also offer an as-available limited open-ended warranty that if something goes wrong I'll try and fix it as long as I'm able.You will get nervous idiots that don't like mentions of 'repair' because they actually think 40-year old equipment will commonly just work forever because they built things so good back then, so 'repair' seems like either tampering or signs that that unit is not a 'good one'. You'll also get similar reactions from people like me that just want original stuff to work on, but that is different. You'll also get blowhards that will argue that the only correct repairs possible are by OEM certified professionals or that you absolutely must use product X or heed guru Y, therefore you can't possibly have done it right, so your product should be nearly given away. All of those people just aren't going to be your customers, so why worry about what they think?I don't know if the TE market is slowing down at all, but it has been pretty insane for the past few years and there is a lot of junk out there. I think most reasonable people are happy to get a good, working example of whatever they are looking for. I don't know what the audio gear market is like, but I suspect similar rules apply. And keep in mind that there are plenty of folks out there doing crap repairs (if you can even call them that) so don't be one of them.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 07:40:45 pm
content: QuoteI think that's the problem if you mention repairs - the potential buyer may be thinking 'bodge'. I guess the way to counter that is to say what was repaired and show the work, which should satisfy anyone seriously interested.That's assuming it works, of course. One of the really bad buys is something 'for spares' which has already been 'repaired'.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 08:05:00 pm
content: I use the ebay term "Seller Refurbished" and list what I have done to bring the product back to market. This said,Refurbishedcan mean anything from a simple cleaning ("santistised all Lego bricks"), upgrading the software ("latest Monetery version") or, doing a full rebuild ("replaced all electrolytic capacitors and calibrated the preamp gain").Avoid "Recently Serviced". When exactly is recently? Some people think recent is ten years ago. Try "Fully Serviced", "Recalibrated", "Safety Tested" or "Lovingly Restored to Full Working Condition".Be reasonable and transparent, and most buyers will appreciate the effort and time that you have put in. And if a customer is a d**k, that's just how they live their life.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 08:14:41 pm
content: "Offered in less broken condition than these things are usually in".

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 08:50:07 pm
content: I use "seller refurbished" when selling circuit boards which were repaired, cleaned and look like new. Those with some scratches I sell as used. My impression though is that selling as used results in about the same sale price and sale rate but less responsibility.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 09:20:47 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 09, 2022, 07:08:03 pmThere is that and there is also the insane belief that the old components have a 'sound' that you can't replicate with 'new' components.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 09:27:04 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on September 09, 2022, 06:28:46 pmHow is it asking for trouble? Used or Refurbished in both cases means all functions are working. Refurbished means a repair was done.If you suspect any functions are not working, then yeah, you should list it as for parts if you don't want to get in trouble.I wouldn't care about testing every spec. Maybe you get unlucky and get a dick buyer, but that would be rare. Hell half the sellers don't know and list non-working stuff as "Used".

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 10:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 09, 2022, 09:27:04 pmHere are the eBay definitions:QuoteRefurbished has to be in "excellent" condition. If the buyer says it isn't excellent, how do you refute that?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 10:51:23 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on September 09, 2022, 10:07:18 pmAh didn't know that thanks. Used it is.If you look through refurbished you'll see tons of "Grade C" refurb phones/laptops/etc which means poor condition or scratched up. I guess its more buyer ammo if you wanted to return something but didn't have another reason for it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 11:09:47 pm
content: As is typical, ebay is heavily stacked in favor of the buyer. Most buyers are reasonable enough to read the description and not expect used items to be in perfect working order with all accessories, or refurbished items to be as-new if they are listed as grade C or whatever and the flaws are disclosed.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 11:34:26 pm
content: the problem is people think its like shitty repairs, you need to convince people that they are good and that you are not soldering capacitors over capacitors that are open circuit.Maybe pictures of repairs would help to show that its1) good part2) good worksmanship (regulated iron, not delaminating traces, esd, post testing, adjustment to standard etc)and something like saying you use ESD precautions would help alot, even if it really probobly does nothing for old gear. And say you don't leave damaged mechanical stuff inside like stripped screws. I never had problem selling repaired gear but I write a little repair report if I am gonna sell it saying exactly what I did. If you get some massacred peice of equipment with 8 stripped screws, massive amounts of delaminated traces, etc.. then thats a problem.Just keep in mind some skilled people want lower prices for broke shit if they intend to fix it themselves and it might be not economical to buy something in working condition.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 02:35:22 am
content: Selling "Refurbished" stuff can run into problems on ebay/amazon because some manufactures have told the marketplace "only we can sell refurbished versions of our products".So they close/cancel your listings.Cough.. FU Apple Cough...