Can Ethernet be used over other cables and connectors? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: abdullahseba
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 04:23:37 pm
content: HiI need to use a 100mbps Ethernet over a 5015 connector for about 5 meters. The other signals in the cable is just 12v and audio. Is this ok? Will it still work? Do I do this before the transformer or not?Its not transmitting critical data but I want to work.Thanks in advance.

author: Paul Price
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 04:49:41 pm
content: A connector 5015 by itself is vague, doesn't describe your wiring (2 twisted pairs?) or the total number of wires used for internet tx/rx and other signals.So, no, it doesn't work in the way you've too vaguely described without a diagram.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:07:15 pm
content: Assuming you have twisted pair (2 twists/inch) it should be fine if you keep the twists right up to the connector. As long as the audio is twisted pair and not really high level, the CMR common-mode rejection found in transceivers should still maintain a low BER (bit/error rate). To test, for example under windows, ping constantly a known local ip (eg: the gateway address) with large packets while monitoring the NIC status for errors (on right-click menu).*edit - Here's some cli optionshttps://www.lifewire.com/ping-command-2618099

author: abdullahseba
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Price on June 12, 2017, 04:49:41 pm5015 isn't used with twisted pair 🙄 4 wires are used TX- TX+ and RX- RX+

author: abdullahseba
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:12:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on June 12, 2017, 05:07:15 pmSo ethernet requires a twisted pair?Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

author: Paul Price
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:15:27 pm
content: Yup.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:17:15 pm
content: I've seen it work with the wrong pairs twisted together @ 10 Mbps, but it's not a good idea. If you need 100 Mbps, then twisted pairs are pretty much mandatory, unless you really feel like doing a thorough SI and BER investigation for your particular design.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:26:28 pm
content: Are youactuallysending 100 Mbps data over the link, or is that just thename/specification of the Ethernet connection?Please explain what you mean by "5015 connector." If you look that up on Google, you will see at least half a dozen VERY DIFFERENT kinds of connectors claiming that name. Some of those are more conducive to impedance-critical, high-speed data connections.The type of connector ("5015 connector" whatever that means?) says NOTHING about what cable you are talking about for 5m?If you are sending only low-speed data, you might get away with any old cable for 5m. But if you are really talking about 100Mbps data rate, then you really need controlled-impedance (100±5) cabling. That doesn't have to be Cat5 or Cat6, etc. But it does need to be 100if you "want the data to work" at higher speeds.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: abdullahseba on June 12, 2017, 05:07:47 pmTP is used with 5015 a lot, eg. 1553 bus.

author: abdullahseba
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 12, 2017, 05:26:28 pmThe specification is 100MBPS actual use speed is not that high mostly SSH. Not sure how many pins yet on the connector but its 5015 bayonet typehttps://www.google.co.uk/search?q=5015+connector&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-porN67jUAhWiLcAKHRyrAKQQ_AUIDCgD&biw=2560&bih=1374&dpr=1.5. Again not sure which cable yet, but some sort of industrial cable probably this onehttp://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/multicore-industrial-cable/6600460/

author: abdullahseba
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 05:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on June 12, 2017, 05:27:53 pmInteresting never knew that.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 06:04:33 pm
content: If it's 100BASE-T then I don't see any problems, just use adjacent pins in the connector for each pair. You can use the two spare pairs for supply and audio. At work we use either 5-pair cable for 1000BASE-T and the fifth pair for supply or 4-pair cable and X-coded connectors if it's POE, 200m working distance is not a problem. Just make sure you use 100 ohm cable. BTW 5015 is what used to be MIL-C-5015.Cable we use is 22AWG CAT5e either 4-pair or 5-pair for heavy duty industrial use, think it's made by YAMAICHI but I don't have part numbers.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 06:16:07 pm
content: None of those military-style round connectors are designed to maintain the impedance of the connection. High-speed (100-BaseT, and 1000-BaseT) connectors ("RJ-45") are designed to at least attempt to maintain the 100impedance of the twisted pair.Using un-paired cable like that will be the luck of the draw whether it will reliably carry your data. Even paired industrial cable (not even controlled impedance) would likely be more reliable than random-conductor cable like that. But again, it depends on the particular implementation how well it will work. You might get lucky. That might be "good enough"?

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 06:35:44 pm
content: You shouldn't have any impedance problems if you use adjacent connector pins for each of the ethernet pairs as it's only 100BASE-T. We've used a variety of circular connectors for 100BASE-T and 1000BASE-T ethernet and never had any problems, nowadays we tend to use POE and 4-pair industrial X-coded connectors. Just make sure you use 100ohm twisted pairs with an overall screen or even individual scrrened pairs.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 09:18:38 pm
content: For 100Base-T, you have good chances that it will work with a manageable error rate. Remember that problems will not show in a go/nogo fashion but as increasing number of collisions/lost packets. I assume that you are using it as a point-to-point connection.I have made experiments once to determine what a 100Base-T will forgive. We were able to use it on a large multi-circuit slipring. We also tried 4 adjacent wires out of a 12x0.75mm² control cable. 5m didn't work, 2m did work. For comparison, a 1Mbit/s CAN did not work even at 2m.If you have a 5015 pinout with lots of spare pins, you can also build some screen around the 4 pins, that you need for the data. Works sometimes.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 11:02:26 pm
content: Please consider that you are using the wrong connector and/or have the wrong hardware architecture.Dedicated, hardened connectors for Ethernet exist. Combined copper and fiber connectors also can be ordered, albeit at a price. Molex has some dedicated DIN solutions:http://www.molex.com/molex/products/family?key=brad_industrial_ethernet_solutions&channel=products&chanName=family&pageTitle=Introduction&parentKey=brad_products&utm_source=dpb&utm_medium=lit&utm_campaign=generalBetter, if all you're doing is ssh is to use serial such as 232, 422, or 485. 485 will provide some noise immunity.Solutions like what you're asking for, can be made to work for a while, but usually fail later due to the fact that engineering margins are severely eroded.Talk to some major connector manufacturers. There are some that specialize in custom aerospace connectors and you can either piggyback off someone else's solution or have them roll your own.Smiths is another one:http://www.smithsconnectors.com/us/homeI also would use impedance-matched cable and deal with bundling multiple cables out of one connector versus forcing my transceivers to endure the reflections. There are also some manufacturers that can supply Ethernet cables bundled with additional wires for power or low speed digital signals.

author: abdullahseba
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 11:20:40 pm
content: Thanks I think I'll just have the Ethernet separate with an industrial connector.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 03:03:30 am
content: Quote from: abdullahseba on June 12, 2017, 11:20:40 pm

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 05:09:37 am
content: Either use a connector with a size 8 quadrax insert ($, not even counting tooling to do it, typically for mil/aero Ethernet connections) Or if your power requirements are low enough, use a ruggedized 8p8c/rj45 based connector and passive POE. Amphenol tvs for full bling, plenty of metal and plastic industral variants for less... stratospheric... prices. They all have a weather tight body that goes over a standard or mildly customized (added catch) rj45 so signal integrity isn't any different from normal Ethernet connectors.If you can't find a poe injector of the right voltage, shoehorn in a dc/dc converter with enough filtering to not upset the audio equipment and you're in busines.If you don't need weather tight, look at neutrik ethercon also.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 11:56:58 am
content: Quite the gamut over a 5 meter cable here (and Ethernet goes to 300m). SSH is not UDP and as such, AFAIK any errors (be they ever so small over 5m) are re-transmitted, re-ordered and corrected within the TCP/IP stack. Such seriousness over something that will likely never go to the moon... On a positive note, seeing every angle is a good thing Abdullaha.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 12:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on June 13, 2017, 11:56:58 amTrue, but 5015 connectors are still a little coarse in general. A dtl-38999 series connector with some size 22 pins, and a good pinout would probably fare better than a 5015 with size 16 pins due to less opening the pair and increasing loop area.High end camera makers seem to have a thing for LEMO connectors for connecting all the inferences too, but those are about the same price as mil circular connectors, and nowhere as available in small quantities, other than a few certain varieties.Any way you approach it, crimpers will be needed, as soldering pins onto a cat5e/6 cable will be frustrating at best, so RJ45 based solutions will have the advantage of only needing $20 crimpers and normal hand tools, rather than 8-indent crimpers. But that may not be a problem for the OP if he has access to one already.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 12:34:45 pm
content: The following cable will be just as complicated. This has to fit two (shielded) twisted pair cables and separate lower awg power wires.Can't you use something modular from harting? They have special ethernet inserts.