"Raspberry Pi" IS NOT "electronics", nor is "Arduino" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 01:46:24 am
content: May I clear something up here - it simply saddens me to see people substituting good old fashioned discrete electronics knowledge with Arduino or the Raspberry Pi. In my 38 years of life, of which around 30 of which have been learning, repairing, working in and generally MASSIVELY enjoying electronics, not *once* have I read a book which mentioned the Arduino or Raspberry Pi as one of the fundamental components of an *electronic* circuit.Here's what gets me; every man and his dog is jumping on the "let's find an excuse to include an arduino for this" bandwagon, simply because they're too lazy to work out how to do something which could be done with a crystal oscillator and some capacitors, without involving an MCU, or they feel a desperate need to validate the Raspberry Pi by including it in every conceivable project they embark on, just to "prove" how very jolly useful it is. The Raspberry Pi is centered around SD cards, Linux and coding - NOT electronic circuits. It may *interface* with outside electronic circuitry by way of GPIO, but it IS NOT electronics - you need to learn Linux code to use it effectively, not ohms law or reactance, nor any other fundamental electronics principle.Here is what I know: Arduino & R/Pi *are powered by* electronics, but the functions they perform are logic and computing - they are NOT electronics - they are logic machines, as is an abacus or the Turing machine.Just a bit of weight off my chest, since certain people seem to see the Arduino/insert-MCU-or-demo-board/whatever as instant alternatives to LEARNING/teaching electronic theory - it is HARD learning electronics, but then the reward is MASSIVE... and it doesn't have anything to do with penguins, kernels, SD cards, partition sizes or bootloaders.... BECAUSE it's PHYSICS, and the rules are not changeable or defined in config files. I want to study and teach electrons and junctions, not the convoluted world of writing block statements in C - that's a TOTALLY different ball game.An ex boss once said to me: "There are LOTS of people who call themselves `electronic engineer`, but they just plug pre-made modules and boards together, without understanding the workings at component level". He is, and was, right. I am saying I am fed up of these "revolutionary" modules being palmed off as the "one size fits all" replacement for hard design work - I am not saying they should not exist... by the way

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:02:58 am
content: Perhaps i should clarify where they stand in the picture, they are the bridge to electronics for beginners and people with a software background (or hardware people to software), if 40mA @5V is not enough on an output they have to learn discrete electronics to interface to it, if they want to put it in a project as just the chip to keep the development board they have to add a power supply a crystal / resonator and a reset lift up resistor, if they run out of ports they have to lean shift registers or i2c / SPI extenders (logic chips are electronic!) these are all basic parts but by understanding them you can work further into the fieldI myself am a fan of the ATmega's and honestly even coming from a hardware background i would be lost trying fresh from a PIC, whereas the click to upload on a dev board platform meant i could sink my teeth in to it yes there is the same for pic, but not generally as easily sourced or at the same price point with programmer included,as for people using them in projects that discrete components could accomplish, "when you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:08:09 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 01:46:24 am, I want to hear more about this.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:11:01 am
content: You could sort of extend the argument that software coding doesn't fall under "electronics" either.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:13:08 am
content: My comment is "No Comment".

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:14:11 am
content: Yeeeeees! I have been waiting on a thread like this for a long while... Can't stand all those noobs who copy and paste an Arduino sketch and ten think they 'know' mikrocontrollers. Odds are, you don't know jack. Oh yeah, I can already smell all those responses of people saying: "But it's a great entry-level to learn the basics and evolve to more complicated systems." No it's not. I don't Learn how to drive a boat so that I can fly a Cessna Citation VII. They are great tools to make some electronics projects happen fast and easy, but nothing more. I have noticed the general trend that the more idiot-proof concepts become, the more over-confident people become for no reason. "Hey, I landed an airliner" -> No, the autopilot did ->"Well, I switched it on, else it couldn't have landed" -> SMHIf those Arduino, Pi, etc. fan boys would have to look at a real MCU environment or read a datasheet, odds are they'd look somewhat like this:Alright, let the hating begin...

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:17:35 am
content: Quote from: KF5OBS on January 11, 2014, 02:14:11 amBut you might start in a Cessna 152 or something similar before you jump into a large passenger aircraft.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:18:26 am
content: Electrons streaming in a vacuum under sealed glass. Now that is what I call electronics. Keep your new fangled, so-called "solid state".

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:20:35 am
content: You seem to have come to the conclusion that there is some kind of division where things are either "electronics" or "boards", rather than digital and analog electronics. Weird. And I don't see why exactly you singled out one particular person as an example?

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:20:59 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on January 11, 2014, 02:17:35 amWhile my comparison was certainly not much better, I want to argue that your comparison fits. Most Arduino guys don't learn anything about the MCUs. They certainly learn a lot about how to structure a program and how to structure program flow. But they learn little about the things the MCU does. I bet you 80 % of all Arduino users do not even know what registers are, what they do or what a stack is and why / how it can overflow. So they will never evolve to the airliner because they always have their flight instructor fly the C152 for them.EDIT: I don't agree with the OPs attitude but I do understand where his frustration is coming from. I give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume that he can't articulate what he's trying to say very well. And I also want to stress that I have no problem with people who want to learn. Any newbie with an Arduino is more than welcome to eMail, PM or call me. If I can help you learn, I will. If you fail a lot of times before you get it right, good, that's how you learn the most. But there is A LOT of people running around thinking they're a MCU god because they can make an LED blink after copy & pasting a sketch. Those people have build up quite a bit of frustration inside of me.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:26:11 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on January 11, 2014, 02:11:01 amThe hardware guys are the helpers who give the programmers something to program. In the end it's the software that gets the job done.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:49:55 am
content: I think learning how to use a microcontroller is ESSENTIAL in modern electronics. Arduino and, to a lesser extent RPi, are gateway drugs to designing full in-circuit MCU projects. What I find interesting is that in the last 5 years it has become cheaper in many cases to design a circuit with an MCU as opposed to discrete analog or digital parts for traditional discrete problems. Less board space too.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 03:00:21 am
content: Quote from: don.r on January 11, 2014, 02:49:55 amYes - I see that actually.Personally, I'd rather just man up and learn the difficult stuff right at the deep end (because I want to learn it to do that job), without all this hand-holding high level nonsense. If I want to use an MCU, I'd rather use ASM (Heyyy, Dave! :p) and think about the registers at a register level; hard to beat ASM for visualising how the silicon 'mechanics' work - if I'm gonna have to learn something, I'd rather make it worth my time and be able to VISUALISE how "MOVLW" moves data into a register, instead of insulating myself from it using a language like "C" with which I cannot visualise what's happening INSIDE the chip; does this make sense?Funnily, I find moving binary values in registers with ASM, EASIER to visualise than C or high level stuff

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 03:06:59 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 03:00:21 amFine if you have the time but production code requires a HLL or you will be spending far too much time coding. Often Arduinos and the like are used to get people interested in electronics as they can do quite interesting things quickly. They obviously are not the be all and end all but I still use Arduinos some times as they are readily available and very cheap for USB loading MCUs. I agree, however, that any serious enthusiast or user of MCUs should learn the building blocks of computers and at least try some ASM. It is still occasionally required in sticky situations.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 04:11:38 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 02:07:01 amYes, and it's nothing new. Processor boards just like the Arduino and RPi have been around for many decades. Nothing essentially new in this argument at all, except that it's become for affordable, accessible, and promoted more.QuoteAnd that's the crux of it, at some point we ALL do this, every single one of us who calls themselves an electronics design engineer, it's just a matter of what bar you set for what aspect of electronics design. For practical reason we have always built electronics using higher level accessible parts.Ultimately electronics engineering is a practical art, and the one who gets the job done properly with the least fuss generally wins. The field itself therefore essentially naturally gravitates toward the use of the highest level solutions possible for a given task.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 04:45:16 am
content: After some discussion, this thread is being re-opened as the subject matter is of interest to most members here.You'll notice that all the off topic posts have been deleted, if you feel a post of yours has been deleted in error, feel free to complain via the report to moderator button in this post.Keep posts on topic which is, for those who can't be bothered reading,Raspberry Pi" IS NOT electronics, nor is "ArduinoOff topic posts or those referring to the OP's 'attitude' will be deleted.Now play nice.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 05:20:36 am
content: Rpi and arduino are to electronics what lego mindstorms is to robotics.A toy you play with. You may be a wizard with mindstorms but if i tell you : now go design a real robot arm including drive, that can do welding on a car chassis... You will end up nowhere.Same with rpi and duino. Here is a bare chip , make a room thermostat with it .. Blank stare...

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 05:38:21 am
content: What makes me sad is that my university is now adopting the Arduino crap into their curriculum and they promote the plague of "use this library, you don't need to understand how it works, you have code samples right here". It sickens me, it really does. People have no clue what a datasheet even is, let alone know how to use one. What the hell are they going to do, when they finally get their engineering degree and set foot in the industry?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 05:52:58 am
content: Quote from: Dave on January 11, 2014, 05:38:21 amProbably is a whole lot better than the old one which likely had designs using up to 3 ( because they were expensive devices in the 1970's) transistors, or for later courses up to a max of 5 TTL logic chips, nothing more complex than a 4 input gate or MSI counter.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 06:46:08 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 06:06:41 amBut it is from a technical point of view.The infamous misaligned headers. The layout errors they were slow to fix, if at all. The initial idea of having three, not four, mounting holes so it tumbles over when put just on three standoffs. The unbelievable bad quality of the libraries that come with the programming environment. The programming / RS232 / USB interface. The avoidance of the correct technical terms at all cost (shield, sketch, ...).And the made-up story of its conception ... For the price of a pizza? Named after a bar? Sounds too good to be true. In fact, all of the marketing around it. Arduino is 99% marketing, "Make" marketing, and 1% a borderline crap piece of electronics. And that seems to attract a kind of people who are more into seeking attention (with some blinking LED) than doing some own work.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 06:47:32 am
content: The topic is not whether the Arduino or Raspberry Pi are crap.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 06:54:15 am
content: I think to some extend the sentiment is caused by the devaluation of perceived knowledge. As more and more "knows" electronic, then electronics become less valued.I recall LU6.2 guys thinks these other stuff (name pipes, TCP, etc....) are for people who only knows how to play and can't program anything serious. I recall a time when "no real man use an IDE, real man program with a text editor."Eventually, the market, the profession, and the professionals will find a new balance point which will last until something else disrupts the balance. Existing knowledge will be devalued by short cuts, packaged solutions, just the way it is unless said knowledge is not valuable enough to have a cost-lowering market.So, if indeed the value part of the equation is what caused one to reject "lower entry barrier" technology: the bottom line is, live with it, get over it, deal with it, and find ways to move yourself up the value chain.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:01:08 am
content: QuoteUnlike all those "professionals" using CMSIS, ASF, Harmony, LUFA, Stellarisware, QT, Boost, openssl, and so on?Not to mention all those fools using actual operating systems, when clearly they should be writing their multi-megabyte applications from the bare hardware up!To be exactly on-topic, though: So what? In this day and age, there are many "goals" that are more easily implemented by programming them on some software system than by implementing them in hardware. People who think they are into "electronics" can ignore that if they want. At their own peril.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:02:45 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 03:00:21 amSure, you'll likely get little argument over that. But that's beside the point of electronics, which unless you are just dicking around doing things and learning for the sake of it, or living some idealistic dream, ultimately it's a practical field that requires you, at the end of the day, to get the job done.You use the right tool for the job at hand.It's a simple fact that no matter how good you are at ASM, someone using C will almost always be able to get the job done quicker than you will in ASM. The bigger the project gets, the more your penchant for ASM becomes hindrance.Show me a contract designer engineer today using solely ASM for clients projects, you'd have a real hard time I'm sure. Why? Because ultimately it's not the most practical approach.That is why I do advocate learning ASM, because it can be useful skill to have, for most practical designs, C will be a better bet in almost every way. With maybe some inline assembler for critical parts.The same can be said for the use of a board like the Arduino or RPi. If you are doing a real job for a client you are going to use the easiest path possible to get the job done. If an off-the-shelf board like those (that have been available for 30 years at least as I've mentioned) can get the job done then you are going to use it. Rolling your own because you think that's the way it must be done will likely put you out of business quicker than your competition.So to answer the OP's question, yes, Arduino and RPi are just as much real electronics as any processor board for the last 30 years has been.Whether or not they are good learning tool is a different argument, but I would say being able to use on the most popular high level processor boards on the market is a pretty essential skill in today's market.If you are going to complain about the Aduino and Rpi, then you must include all other high level processor boards both now and throughout time.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:08:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 11, 2014, 07:02:45 amExactly correct. In the real world, where money is exchanged for goods and services, purists fall to the wayside quickly. In my limited experience, which is not in electronics, purists are purists because they spend very little time doing actual work.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:12:01 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on January 11, 2014, 06:47:32 amFor what use? I can tell you now that the Arduino is a terrible babysitter. Just awful.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:14:13 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 11, 2014, 06:54:15 amAnd that the way it's always been throughout history.Someone who studied EE 50 years ago would have learnt "the basics" a lot better than someone today, because there was so much less to learn in an EE course, and they didn't have the tools we do today. But if such a graduate from 50 years ago was transported to todays world, would they be better than today's graduate?At solving maxwell's using a slide rule, you bet. But for a lot of other stuff they would be absolutely clueless. The industry continues to evolve.And yes, all things being equal the one with the most in-depth fundamental knowledge will always be the better engineer, but no one can learn everything, it's impossible.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:15:47 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on January 11, 2014, 07:08:08 amAh, that sums up my post in one sentence!

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:16:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 11, 2014, 07:14:13 amBut we can still try

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:23:35 am
content: Quote from: Dave on January 11, 2014, 05:38:21 amDo you calculate square or cube roots on paper, or do you use a computer/calculator? Did you make your computer or did you buy it? Do you wire your own resistors or do you buy them? do you make your own shoes or do you buy the crap they peddle at "stores"?You use modern shortcuts constantly. You travel via vehicle. You shop for food instead of growing it and slaughtering it yourself. You get your water from the tap or a bottle, instead of heading to a local stream.Unilaterally declaring Arduino "crap" is folly. The Arduino has valid uses. There is zero argument about this among the wise. Is the Arduino or the Raspberry Pi perfect for every application? Of course not. Is it a good choice for education? That depends entirely on what is being taught.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:50:16 am
content: Maybe Arduino or rasp-pi is to "easy" for the professionalBut, in my recent university the Electronic Engineering student is declined very sharply. from ten year before to this year only left about 1/5 of them. and without any breakthrough in learning material. maybe no more people interesting in EEI think that kind of kit is very important for "youngster" so they have passions to learn more..and today trend is robotic control. and it's very convenience using arduino c langguage instead "old faithful asm"despite i dislike arduino programing. (i use avr studio)I'm my self learn it hard way(asm langguage), butI can fell the exciting to normal people when they try arduino say "hello word" in the modular 16x2 LCD..some time is fun to do things from the basic....but here is no need to reinvent the wheel when you can buy a car..

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:03:35 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 11, 2014, 05:20:36 amYour elitism is really wearing me out. I can't say you don't contribute, because of course you do. Far more than me, but come on. There are valid endeavors on this planet that you are not involved in and have not experienced. There are things that happen on non-industrial scales that are fully valid. Most of us have not been featured on the EEVblog or The Amp Hour, but that does not render our efforts or interests worthless.Lego Mindstorms can be valid robotics. They are simply not at the same scale with the industrial robots I believe you are referring to. Nor do they have the same capabilities or performance characteristics, but that alone does not render it a toy platform. An Arduino IS a valid solution for some things, and not just toy things.If an Arduino is a toy, then every low-end microcontroller is a toy. If an Arduino is a toy, why not an Intel 8051, which is STILL used to great effect in industry, and is LESS capable than an Atmel 328, which is the core of every Arduino I own?If I have something I need to accomplish, and I can get it done with an Arduino or a raspberry pi, or KiCad or Lego Mindstorms, does that necessarily define any solution I come up with as a toy? Absolutely not.No, we don't all have the same knowledge and experience as you. That does not make our efforts, interests, or platform choices necessarily irrelevant, and it does not make you automatically correct.Despite my wording, I am not trying to attack you. I have much more to gain by coaxing you into helping more and dismissing less than I do by passing you off. I'm simply a crappy communicator, which leads to an inferred tone to my posts which is not intentionally implied.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:07:10 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on January 11, 2014, 07:23:35 amIf universities are teaching proper programming they should be showing people how to make their own libraries.I was skeptical of the arduino at first but now I use it... for electronics, I'm naff at programming although I'm planning to get there one day so i use the arduino where i need a microcontroller running some software but I do do the Electronics. I have noticed plenty of people who think that just because they can program the Arduino they think they are doing Electronics. My idea of using the Arduino is to not even use the shield, I program straight to a chip on a circuit board which has to bear minimum and is wired into my circuit I may use the shield just to ensure I got the code right as it is easy to probe it and quick to set up.What a lot of people don't realise is that this crap Arduino is actually driving a lot of commercial products I have had some interesting purchases of eBay of preprogrammed Arduino chips one company bought 10 and they are an industrial automation company so I wonder. I have also sold quantities of 30 to 100 chips preprogrammed to people who clearly have a purpose for them and it's not making 100 different projects because they can't be bothered to do it properly they are obviously using them for something meaningful and indeed I am designing products myself around the Arduino although I am also trying to learn to program so that I can be more flexible and choose different chips that are not more expensive just because they are also used on the Arduino and so popular.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:26:09 am
content: i *think* i agree in theory with the op. i dont think they are "crap", but the point i feel hes trying to make, that someone will come along, take an arduino out of a box, and plug it in, then say "im an electronics expert!!" when they dont even know which side of a resistor is the negative side, it is a bit disgusting. *but as for the willingness to accept them as a part of the whole, all i can relate to in me head is seeing someone 60 yes ago bitching about how solid state transistors aint electronics because they dont come in a glass tube, or someone 50 yrs ago moaning about how you need to build a circuit with resistors and transistors, and sticking a 555 or 741 in there is cheating, thats not "real" electronics.so while i will agree that these things are more programming than theory, so dont count as "electronics", i also realize that "electronics" is evolving to that state, and my feeling that way is only through unwillingness to change the definition of "electronics" from what it was when i learned it to something new. its hard to unlearn something. perhaps if there was a new term coined to encompass the entire realm of "electronics" as defined and accepted by the "old timers" and the newer computing based electronics, it would be more accepted, but as was mentioned, then this all just boils down to semantics......*yes, that was a joke, calm down.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:33:40 am
content: Maybe this is more of an argument of 555 vs digitalwrite(pin1,high);delay(1000);digitalwrite(pin1,low)BUT...It took Arduino to take me back to when I was a kid playing with Radio Shack kits. But once I got a computer I forgot a lot of stuff. Now Arduino puts both together, computers and building things with electronics.Oh you can't pull an amp through an MCU pin? Well how do I do that? Oh a MOSFET? Ok. I think I understand now.I want to monitor that, but I don't want to fry the rest of my circuit. How do I do that? Oh an Optocoupler!Almost everything I can do professionally was self taught basically, so this is just more to it.We're just a bunch of plumbers moving electricity around.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:35:52 am
content: I think the distinction needs to be made that on the one hand you can know all about programming and stick all the wonderful programmes in the world into an Arduino chip but on the other hand if you cannot interface that chip to the real world we are doing is programming for programming sake. To try and help these people the various Shields have been developed and various boards that carry out predefined functions like driving motors. For those of us who come from the other side and do Electronics but want some help and simplicity in programming we design nice circuits and then hash something into a microcontroller program. The distinctions will become blurred I have seen some pretty funny assertions and assumptions made about Electronics on the Arduino forums I had a row with one guy about where to put a back EMF diode and he reckoned that he designs things for aircrafts. I have also had some fairly interesting questions on my eBay listings and have ended up having to teach some people how to control a MOSFET with a microcontroller i.e. which pin goes where.From what I gather Rasberry pi is actually designed for the programming enthusiasts and is not marketed as an electronics kit although of course if one wants one can make one's own bought for it.There is sadly a growing lack of understanding of what I call discreet Electronics, everybody is trying to do things in software rather than just used the correct circuitry. For example I have seen somebody putting filtering code into a microcontroller to overcome a spiky signal from a sensor and even this did not work I came along and fixed it by putting a capacitor on the microcontroller input knowing that they were already resistors in series with the line and so creating a low pass filter which instantly solved the problem instead of the half measure which was overloading the microcontroller's abilities by putting software in where it was never supposed to be. And this was not even an Arduino it was a military project-based of an expensive microcontroller.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 09:07:22 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on January 11, 2014, 08:03:35 amThe point i am trying to make is that , while arduino and pi can be fun and a shortcut to making a doohickey, they don't really teach electronics.Lego mindstorms doesnt teach robotics. Sure you can make a robot arm or self balancing robot but it doesnt teach you how to do load calculations for the arm segments , the required motor power and other critical things.You can perfectly mkae a scale model of the golden gate bridge using knex. That doesnt make you an architect or bridge builder.If all you are after is making a doohickey, be my guest. But don't expect it to teach electronics. Arduino forums are full of people asking how to calculate the series resistor for an led... And questions if there is a shield for xyz. No? Bummer. Well make one! But that is a step too far.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 09:10:48 am
content: but you are ignoring my point, here and now the arduino is being used to power comercial products, so while it's not a purist ideal it gets the job done and ise a useful tool to help learn programming. Being dyslexic makes me very dense in programming and I can't handle both learning the mcu environment (registers and all that) and the c language and just reading about C does not make me retain the information I need to use it. So the arduino is a happy compromise, I can forget the hardware layer and just concentrate on learning C and then start to worry about learning the mcu hardware.

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 09:12:58 am
content: In the end, digital is high speed analog. It is not a different field when it comes to designing the circuits that make up computer logic switches (gates). Electrical engineers designed state machines along time ago, from valves (tubes). They evolved to include sequencing by the use of memory for program storage. It was electrical engineers that invented programming. And this evolved into a new field call computer science.I got into electrical engineering because of a PDP8 that the school system had, that was accessed by everyone in the school system using TTY terminals with dial up 110 baud connections, where the phone handset had to be inserted into the terminal. I was in 7th grade, and this was 1969. And I spent the time printing out the games, like blackjack, and reverse engineering how they worked.It's all electronics.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 09:13:03 am
content: Arduinos, RPs, transistors, Software, FPGA, wires, capacitors, networking, solder iron, cloud computing, and such are just arrows in the quiver of the maker. The segregation into disciplines such as 'electronics' is not that important.As for Arduinos, I don't understand the contempt. I think they are a lot of fun, including the lego like boards and sensors, the back to basic IDE and the community around it.

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 09:24:20 am
content: This is essentially an abstraction level discussion, so similar to what we in the software business have been going through discussing i.e. Scala vs. ASM. Yes, there's nothing you can't do in ASM that you can do in Scala, it's just that the programming model makes you so much more productive and handles so many complexities for you.Hardware is a little different of course, but in practical terms not too much. Case of point, I dived back into electronics about 1-2 years ago and started building some discrete circuits, one of these being a mailbox notifier. It was fun to work with discrete IC's like the 555, 741, Schmitt triggers and logic gates - however as I started needing more features it became harder and harder to work work with and the battery drain would be unacceptable. That's when I jumped onto the MCU bandwagon (AVR ATtiny) and were amazed that I could have all my features (deep sleep state, counter for mail drops, measurement of brightness, hysteresis, button-debouncing etc.) and cut massively down on components (I.e. use PWM rather than use resistor for LED) while making battery life a non-issue.In other words, I agree that one should watch out with these hobby boards for everything - but picking a tiny MCU and configuring it to replace the work of TTL/CMOS/timers is perfectly valid in my opinion and not doing so, if it's advantageous, just makes you an old conservative fart.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:08:10 am
content: some PLC engineer say AVR is trash because it cheap and will not stand industrial environment.but i find ATMega128 in Zelio smart relay.when i teach AVR in university, i see MCS-51 is like bad cheap old stuff, but surprise, i see MCS51 in prototype board in $30 K test machine....it's hard to teach your self all the different language. ladder diagram in PLC, flow chart programing in labview, VHDL, Verilog, C/C ++ , C#, VB, VB.net, asm , delphi, pascal, java, ... and many other language. too many thing to learn in a lifetime...i dislike the arduino because i already learn the EE word in hard way.but from neutral point of view. i want a single programming language for all application.so arduino-ing everything is easy st way to enter EE world. and after that.. learn the hard things laterthere is no need for everyone to learn asm. the hardware is fast enough to do un-efficient high level programming.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:11:46 am
content: i recently produce a "fix" for a control system prototype. We realized at the last minute that we had not asked for all the correct features from our subcontractor and they wanted a lot of money to fix it because it meant a code rewrite, so i made a small arduino board to do the job, not so useless after all.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:16:16 am
content: Quote from: zapta on January 11, 2014, 09:13:03 amIt couldn't be easier to understand.Most who have contempt for these modules have put in the hard yards to learn various processor architectures, the details of all the peripherals, come to grips with C/C++ language and all the processor specific pragma's and __attribute's, studied assembly output of the compilers to see what different constructs produce the tightest code, spent hours debugging code and studying protocol standards, scoping signals to see why they are being corrupted on a self designed pcb's... the list is endless.Then along comes somebody with no experience, no knowledge and produces something with one of these modules and all of the associated code libraries and they're streaming HD movies to 60 inch flat screensWhere it would get difficult to criticise these technologies is where they are being used as pre-packaged low level physical layer so that something more ground breaking and technically challenging can be achieved by people that have the skills and knowledge to tackle high level system constructs and don't want to be bogged down in the low level stuff. Like somebody who is mechanically adept but know little about electronics can build some fancy automated machine, instead we usually end up with a community of people who are trying to see how many ways one can light up an LEDWe end up with more focus from vendors, forums, blogs, technical resources in general being dedicated to the masses in an effort to cash in on it's popularity. It just seems to be a positive feedback loop that ends up detracting from community discussion and advancement of the very technology that these platforms use

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:19:41 am
content: well tell you what. I'm going to take a new moral stance: you have no right to use low level programming either unless you can make a microcontroller yourself....... how about that, it's the same sort of bigotry

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:24:23 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 11, 2014, 10:19:41 amSimon, that's the point you are missing by being a high level userMost people whoknowassembly will easily have enough knowledge to make their own microcontroller

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:24:39 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 10:23:16 ami thought the idea of abstraction what they we can take the stupidity out of it and apply it to a situation that clearly shows how stupid it is

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:25:40 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 11, 2014, 10:24:23 amYou mean they can design a silicone chip die and put it in a package ?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:25:51 am
content: Do you need to understand micro crystalline structure of materials to be an architect and design buildings, the structural engineer leaves the metallurgy to the metallurgist in the same way you don't need to be a solid state physicist to use the building materials of electronics, you just need an general understanding of what each brick in the circuit dose. To each his own.

author: Icarus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:30:32 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 11, 2014, 09:07:22 am+1I think they are evaluation boards.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:31:19 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 11, 2014, 10:25:40 amAnyone can go and buy the parts required to build an arduino. Anyone can get there hands on a C compiler. Name 2 people you know personally that have access to a fab

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:32:22 am
content: you name me someone who insists on coding in ASM that can design the chip too

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 10:35:26 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 11, 2014, 10:32:22 amWhat's the point of designing something you can't build

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:00:41 am
content: All a point of boundaries of disciplines. If everything is electronics then also the marketing manager that creates a virtual feature that has to be implemented yet is electronics which is BS.In a large firm there are still the roles asigned to these disciplines and you can clearly see a differtentiation. Yes there are engineers that can do everything which I also have as an ambition, but on the other hand the field is soo large these days nobody can be very good at everything.Large firms have adapted and slowly moved to the software discipline.So to give an example how this might look like in a large firm that develops products which has embedded software:HardwareAnalogue/Power Electronics: EE eng. function: HW engineerDigital Electronics/VHDL: EE eng. function: HW engineerHW quality/LCM: EE eng. function: HWQ engineerNow these three roles are specialists in their field which is clearly electronics. Don't ask most of them to program anything in software but ask them which electrolytic or FET, brand and model has to be used for a certain design.Interestingly, 10 years ago the digital HW engineers would also pick the MCU, nowadays that is being the responsibility of the SW engineering dept.SoftwareSoftware for the MCU: EE eng/ CS eng. : SW engineer trend is going to CS engineers only10 years ago there were 100 HW engineers and 10 SW engineers, today there are 20 HW engineers and 150 SW engineers.Now to go back on topic and answer the question with my answer based on this example: the design/development of the Rpi/Arduino is an EE task and is clearly electronics. Using the board by writing SW only is clearly a CS task and is NOT electronics.BUT: using such a board to interface to other electronics and studying how to use it with those electronics is again a EE task.So not easy to answer this question, it all depends on the person that uses the boards, what he does with them and how far his interests go.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:06:59 am
content: My 2 cents:I can't stand the Arduino marketing and worshipping machine. It's a fun little plaything for the kids, but the idea that it teaches you much of anything aboutelectronicsis laughable - you're slotting blocks together and lucky if you even use a single discrete component.No, using the Arduino teaches you how to use the Arduino. The buck stops there. Want to use a "real" micro? Well, you'd better learn how to read datasheets, compiler documentation, register maps, and all that shit, because you've just been deluding yourself into thinking you're some kind of expert. Same goes for the coding side of things - "Yay I can make a tweeting houseplant! I'm a god amongst men!" Good for you. Now do the same, but with a network chip not supported by your libraries.I have no issues with people playing with the Arduino, but I am offended by people who think it's an actual viable solution to many problems. The problems that are best - or even adequately - solved with an Arduino do not intersect very much with the problems that are solvable with microcontrollers in general, purely because it's a bulky, bloated mess.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:13:26 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 11, 2014, 10:35:26 amI'm being abstract, after all that is the excuse for this whole argument. OK lets make it easier, do you know anyone who insists in coding in ASM that will champion writing in machine code instead. How about people who program in C that could create their own language ? you can look at any two levels of use and demand to know why the higher level is not using the lower level......

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:18:16 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 11, 2014, 10:31:19 amAn FPGA will do the trick.The point is you hardly ever see the ASM nerds coding directly in HEX, no, they use the higher level assembler, let alone designing their own processor or writing their own assembler. The ASM nerds are just one level lower than the C nerds, but they aren't even the lowest level, so it's hardly worth bragging over.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:20:36 am
content: Quote from: ovnr on January 11, 2014, 11:06:59 amThe arduino is not the be all end all, it is more expensive to use (those chips now come at a premium and with lead times), I find it useful for using within it's limits and it is teaching me to program before i start looking at how to implement that in low level hardware. My use of the arduino as I've already said is as a programming platform and not a brand. i have the IDE a damn sight simpler than anyone elses, I can program to a range of chips, I do not need the boards i buy the MCU's i need and program them with a programmer, I am not even using the arduino as a brand but as a system and IDE. I use it for my needs rather than be guided by branding.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:24:58 am
content: Ok, so we've explored the extremes at the low end, and to be honest, the comebacks could have me looking at the atomic structures.The point is noted with regards to higher levels of abstraction, the lower the abstraction the higher the demand for knowledge.At what point does going the other way call for an end to it being EE related. If someone has an idea and rings a local design house and pays them to design widget "X" does that mean they're still "into" electronics?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:32:07 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 11, 2014, 11:20:36 amSo why do people like you constantly try to shove it up our behind that it is?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:35:40 am
content: Quote from: ovnr on January 11, 2014, 11:06:59 amYou are demonstrably wrong, and massively so. The number of Arduinos, clones, variants, or plain micros programmed with the Arduino IDE that are used in real world useful devices is almost beyond count.Just because you think it's a bulky bloated mess means absolutely nothing at all, and has no bearing on the practical usability of it.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:36:26 am
content: Dare I say...horses for courses?The crux of the matter, in reality, without meaning to offend anyone here, is that some people that didn't have access to tools like these, and had to learn and graft to achieve the same result begrudge the fact that people with relatively little knowledge are achieving results using these tools that look (to the casual observer) identical to what you would othereise have to work a lot harder to achieve.Thatis why we're having this discussion, it really has nothing to do with the hardware or software involved.Raspberry pi, arduinoareelectronics. But they are obviously a moot point if you need to make a temperature sensor with an LED that lights up if you can do it with discrete components, for example.If you need to play some video and your budget, knowledge, and time is limited, do you use a huge FPGA, learn VHDL, and implement it that way? Or do you get a cheap HDMI monitor and a raspberry pi?Horses. for. courses.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:38:57 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 11, 2014, 11:36:26 amNo, once again, it isn't. It is the behavior of the Arduino people that is so annoying. That they shit on real engineers, while they don't even manage to get two headers in a straight line.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:39:55 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on January 11, 2014, 11:38:57 amDo they? How so?Nothing wrong with a little confidence. If we can see when they're bullshitting, what does it matter?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:01:31 pm
content: As a artist who went to art school but has an interest in electronics I probably have a different view than you guys; my view is it IS electronics if it demonstrates skill / originality or ingenuity.I'm actually going the other way! my first proper project used a PIC and I wrote all my own libraries and bit-bashed I2C, UART, LCD etc. But for my new project I thought screw that! - I'll use Arduino and libraries for prototype, and then finalize the PCB with a bare MCU.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:06:01 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 11:59:00 amThat's not really the point. Just because you can't make something doesn't mean you shouldn't use it.You could say the same about PICAXE - you can program PICs with BASIC. They have several project boards that are basically arduinos in practice. I used PICAXE before I had the knowledge to make more advanced electronics.Should I have not used PICAXE? I guess I shouldn't because according to you, I didn't deserve it.I quite often use the arduino programming environment and bootloader but roll my own hardware. This is because my hardware knowledge is a lot better than my programming knowledge. Should I not do that? I can't write a USB bootloader myself. Interestingly, I do write assembler code for PICs quite often as well. What's wrong with using someone else's knowledge to fill in the gaps in my own? I expect you do the same thing every day, since you can't know everything.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 12:12:23 pmI can't agree or disagree with it being ironic because I don't really see why you think it is.Why is it ironic, again? Because those without knowledge use things designed by those with knowledge?That's not ironic.

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:16:37 pm
content: We use the Arduino with our 2nd year design students. They have to interface the arduino with circuits built on breadboard (PWM,optical sensors, switches, pots, Led's and stepper motor driver) and populate a pre designed motor driver PCB. Their final aim is to produce a vending machine using the arduino,sensors, motor etc.The arduino is also being used on an MSc course (ironically an electronics engineering course) which is centred around Labview. Labview is used to send serial commands to a serial client on the arduino which controls/reponds to plug in (tinkerkit-switches,led's relays etc) modules. This course includes PLC's as well.It seems the Arduino is very popular and although a sceptic at first it seems to be working out fine for our students. In previous years students had to work with PIC assembly language on the same course and this really was hard work for us as well as them.Our 3rd year (design students) have an elective embedded course where they work with CCS C on a custom designed (by me) board and using a PIC16f819 chip. The lecturer on this course will have nothing to do with Arduino's as it is much more in depth and concentrated on full custom hardware.I'm currently trying out the Raspberry Pi as I might see that creeping into the curriculum at some point as well.David.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 12:06:42 pmWell spotted! 1.6180339887 points to you! ;-)

author: colotron
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:28:06 pm
content: One thing that Arduino does very well: lower the entry barrier to make something with electronics.Five years ago if somebody ask you: how do I start in electronics?, your answer will most likely repel that person to try to start anything: "this is a microcontroller, you need to put crystal + regulators, have a look at this programmer, the compiler generates a object file, then the linker, then you get the .hex file. Now you need the programmer, configure it this way or it can blow your part". "Yeah, you will need U$S1000 or more...". "Oh no, you haven't initialized the PLL correctly, and the timer configuration is wrong, here, read this few hundreds pages of datasheets and application notes", "you don't understand anything of that, oh I'm sorry I don't have time to help you".Now you can say: "what you want to start with?, little motor control?, sound?, led lighting?. There, buy this arduino with this 2 or 3 shields and you will be fine". "U$S150 will be enough don't worry"."Need some help?, here you have hundreds of forums, tutorials, step by step videos in any language you want, have fun!!!".I use msp430 regularly, and I was very happy when Energia arrived. Finally I can prototype things faster just to show functionality including libraries without having to read tons of datasheets, application notes, example code, errata. And the cheap shields saves me to do hours/days of pcb design work to test ICs (qfn parts in my mind here).So for me, yeah, Arduino has an important role to play in electronics. Both for beginners and experienced people.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 12:23:32 pmOh alright, I see what you mean. I guess you could call that ironic.I guess the "real engineers" only have other "real engineers" to blame...

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:30:06 pm
content: QuoteReally? Not that I've seen. At least, not any more than the self-taught vs degreed vs Professional Engineers or HW vs SW folk complain about each other... Almost all of the "attitude" I've seen (and I've got feet in both Arduino, EE, and CS forums) has been AGAINST the arduino folk. The clueless arduino folk are just ... clueless, and the worst I see is along the lines of "why won't someone write code and build hardware for me to make my arduino run an autonomous flying robot with vision? Arduino is a piece of crap!"I always figured that my job as an engineer is to take science and technology, and mold it into a form where ordinary people can use it to solve problems. Arduino seems to have similar goals. Yeah! Is it over-hyped? Probably. Is it a lot more successful than it ought to be, compared to any number of similar/better products, thus inspiring envy? Probably. Does it teach electronics? No, probably not. It can *inspire* interest in electronics, sort-of like building a Heathkit (we all like Heathkit, right?), or Ham Radio (ok; that teaches a little bit of electronics.) And it can let people do neat things without learning electonics. Arduino is a Success!(Raspberry Pi seems a bit different; I don't know if they're meeting their goals ("teaching programming", IIRC.) Instead, they seem to be getting used in more arduino-like ways.)

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:41:21 pm
content: 1. Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.2. Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.”? Douglas Adams, The Salmon of DoubtNow let me get off your lawn grandpa.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:48:44 pm
content: Still programming an arduino is CS not EE. It is when saying, I drive this car and program my GPS system in my car so I am an EE. I have no clue how the GPS works, have no clue what is in it but still I program it to tell me where to drive, so I am into electronics. That is BS in my eyes.Writing C code on itself is CS not EE and they CAN be hugely different worlds, I can give a simple reallife example of this:One of my SW colleagues wrote C code to write some settings to an external SPI flash chip almost each second. In the code review I made a comment that the final product would be broken in 27 hours since the flash had a 100000 writecycle lifetime. He was not aware of this. But in the HSI (hardware software interface) which was written by the EE HW engineer this was stated. So two fails on his account.The mear fact that a EE HW engineer is responsible for the HSI with the firms I know off makes it clear that there is a gap between EE and CS.And yes there are a lot of persons (happily) that are able to bridge that gap and do have knowledge of both worlds.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:59:01 pm
content: Sort of related -Seems like every other thing on hackaday these days still has a breadboard in it.If it still has a breadboard in it, it is NOT FINISHED!If it's worth doing, it's worth soldering( Hmmm - T-shirt idea...)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 01:05:35 pm
content: Don't feed the trollsIf you want to build a large building quickly you need big bricks. A bricklayer has no clue how the bricks are made exactly and it is not necessary for him/her to know either in order to make a building.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 01:12:44 pm
content: An Arduino is really just an AVR on one of various pre-defined breakout boards with some further simplifying abstractions in the libraries/ide. That's all.Abstraction is good, if you can afford the performance hit, and you have no particular desire to reinvent wheels, then abstraction is the name of the game. We all stand on the shoulders of giants if we admit it or not.I write code for a living, some of my systems produce PDF documents from HTML representations, do I know what the hell the PDF file format is like, no of course not, could I learn and write a converter myself, sure but it would take a hell of a lot of effort, months, years probably to get something as complete as the existing solutions, and it's not something I have any interest in knowing, so I use a library, an abstraction."Arduino" is ABSOLUTELY electronics. It might be a level of abstraction, but you are still pushing electrons around and making them do your bidding. And every time an Arduino user thinks "hmm, how do I do this" and hits google, they do learn something new.Besides, if somebody using an Arduino system decides they need more performance than the abstractions can provide, nobody is holding them back, they can hit google and learn how to treat it as a bare AVR. Perhaps they might choose to use the abstraction we call C, or the one we call Assembly, depending on how far away from the bare silicon they want to be.If somebody using an Arduino system decides that the platform is too big physically, nobody is holding them back, they can roll their own board, slap on an AVR of some description and using nothing more than their existing Arduino to program it, be up and running.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 02:08:58 pm
content: I think this argument is similar to saying "calculators is NOT maths".The problem I see with Arduino (which is even worse in RPi) is that it leads to learning programming/electronics without understanding the basics of how things work. It's like teaching kids maths by giving them calculators; a calculator is very useful, but only for someone who already knows how to do arithmetic manually, it is like an abstraction that helps people do things, but still it is no substitute for the "low level knowledge" thatreallymatters when designing and troubleshooting.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 05:47:05 pm
content: Many hundreds of millions (or billions?) of people can drive a car; that doesn't make them a mechanic or a car designer.If all you want to do is use Arduino / Raspberry Pi to achieve an end goal of causing something to happen, that will be fine - my point is (and it's the point almost everyone is twisting and distorting to suit their argument) that learning "Platform X" and then claiming you're an "electronic engineer" is a deception - you're deceiving *yourself* most of all, and are going to be pretty stuck when you apply for a REAL electronics position in a company that doesn't use those platforms, if you don't know electronic theory *FIRST*.Keep in-fighting if you like, and if you think it will solve anything. As the OP, and as a sane, rational human being, I know full well what my thoughts are on the subject, ergo my thoughts when typing up the opening post. Wading through pages of people trying to "one-up" one another merely for the sake of "being right", isn't going to change my belief - the belief that learning a canned, high-level platform which is 99% *software* but INTERFACES to hardware, does not make one an "electronic engineer" - it makes them someone who has learnt certain connections for a certain board and/or IC, and who knows what commands do what (but, unlike electronic theory and physics, ALL that can change on a whim, if some clever bod decides to re-write the firmware; there ARE NO absolutes in software)If you still don't understand what is, in essence, an EXTREMELY simple point... well, I can't really make it much clearer.

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 05:58:16 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on January 11, 2014, 07:23:35 amBut that's exactly the problem. Most of us do know how to calculate a square or a square root even though we use a calculator. We know how a computer works, despite buying it completely assembled. We could wire our own resistors if we were bored enough. I'm not sure if I could make my own shoes, the first attempt would probably suck pretty hard. But I guarantee you that the majority of Arduino, etc. fan-boys can not program any MCU without the Arduino platform. Many people use shortcuts, of course, we're all lazy by nature. And that's good and fine. I do congratulate people who build something cool on an Arduino. BUT, the unfortunate truth is the disproportion between knowledge and perceived knowledge. You can see this on platforms were moderators aren't as strict, like Reddit for instance. The Arduino copy and paste kids really believe they're the overlords of MCUs. That is the only part that upsets me.Like I said in a previous post, which got deleted despite the non-OT second half, as long as your actual knowledge to perceived knowledge ratio is in order, I have no problem with you. And if an Arduino user contacts me via eMail, PM or even calls me, I'd always help them. Anyone can evolve, no matter where you start. And if Arduino works out for you as a gateway drug, awesome!

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 06:19:51 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 11, 2014, 09:07:22 amIt's a matter of skillset, the tools at hand, and the goal they are reaching for. When you are thirsty, you reach for a cup that someone else made, you reach for a faucet that someone else made, you turn a valve that someone else made, releasing water that someone else cleaned.That's called "getting your own water" of all things.Not everyone has the skillset to fashion faucets or cups or pipes or water treatment facilities, so they look for pre-made choices. That's normal, and I'm not sure your disputing that.But consider that you are (or may be, i'm not sure if you actually have) asking someone who knows nothing about valves or piping to make a faucet. (I'm using a metaphor here, but you get my meaning, I'm sure.) If I asked you to make a faucet, would I legitimately have a gripe with you if you balked at the idea of it? I would not; that kind of thing is not in your skillset.Making Arduino shields is not in everyone's skillset, and asking them to come up with a shield is as much of a ridiculous notion as me asking you to forge a faucet.Now, you may be the enterprising spirit to learn how to do it yourself because "hey that might be cool." Not everyone has that. Some people just want a drink of water.Some people just want an Arduino with a shield that does what they need, and they haven't the time to design, test and produce their own.I agree that an Arduino will not necessarily teach electronics, but they can. For some people, they are the gateway to a lovely world of inductance and impedance and RC networks and everything.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 06:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on January 11, 2014, 06:19:51 pmYes, yes, yes.And what the electronics community absolutely doesnotneed, is this elitism when it comes to skillset and knowledge. We should be welcoming everyone, even if they're only proficient enough to use an arduino.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 06:30:02 pm
content: Okay. Seeing as many people seem to have wandered off the road and got lost in the bush, I'm going to re-iterate part of my opening post - probably the most pertinent part. If you still don't get this, there's possibly something wrong with your eyes, (or with your reasoning skills):QuoteSee how simple this is?

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 06:46:11 pm
content: Looks like this article is always getting off the point. NOBODY has argued int his post that Arduino can't be a gateway drug. Nobody argues that some Arduino guys may develop thirst for more and become awesome EEs. That may all be very well possible. The original question was, is it electronics? From there we got on the overconfidence of Arduino, Pi, etc. 'developers'. And OP just clarified that again. It's the fact that many of them represent themselves as MCU / Electronics super gods just because they can put a shield on an Arduino and copy some code. I haven't seen anyone challenge that statement yet. So it seems like there is consensus on this issue.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 06:52:11 pm
content: It is electronics.The only person who would care what attitude someone has or what they call themselves when they achieve something with an arduino is someone who is concerned with their own status being devalued.Don't get me wrong; I have felt the annoyance when I see a project getting a lot of attention that is really very simple and just uses arduino shields etc.But then I realised, who cares? Why should I care? I'm not insecure about my own status.The only thing more irritating than someone being elitist is someone being quite obviously elitist and claiming not to be.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:03:04 pm
content: The way this thread has travelled is exactly how I thought it would. Noone can challenge my point head-on without defaulting to diversion and irrelevancies. The absence of a logical, terse, reasonal and balanced challenge to my (re-iterated) point, seems to have served perfectly to affirm it.EDIT ADDENDUM:If we are to follow the logic that Arduino teaches electronics because its built from electronic components and you connect electronic components to it, is not very well reasoned a point. You may well connect an LED or transistor up - following a tutorial / schematic, whilst remaining utterly oblivious to the workings of PN junctions or gallium arsenide photonelectronic properties. It's fine to hire a crane and slot together a pre-fab kit house, just so long as you don't expect people to hire you as an architect.If you STILL disagree, then maybe this is more an issue of ego and denial?

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 07:03:04 pmClassic fingers in the ears approach to an argument.I contest that both the arduino and raspberry pi are electronics, and their value is in their ease of use.The fact that someone may not be able to design one themselves doesn't make them any less 'electronics'. A person's ability doesn't dictate a tool's use or worth.I will ask you directly, and hopefully get a direct, clear, honest answer. Why does it bother you if someone with an arduino says they do electronics?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:11:46 pm
content: It's a pointless argument. Who gives a fart whether or not it's electronics? Do what you like to do. I work on analog electronics because I like it. Other people work on digital electronics because they like it. And some people use Arduino because they like that, and unless you've been assigned the task of carefully filing every hobby activity according to its subject, it doesn't affect you one bit whether or not it's "electronics".You sound like a bigger curmudgeon than I usually am.It's a problem of classification. What's a component, and what's a black box? Personally, I think the good ol' LM317 is as much a black box unit as an Arduino. It doesn't have "physics", it has "purpose"; you follow the datasheet and hey presto, you've got a voltage regulator.But do I withhold the title "electronics" to any activity involving one? Frankly, I don't give a damn. Call it "knitting" if you like.

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:16:28 pm
content: QuoteI think people who have studied for years, or even decades have every right to be concerned with their own status. As far as I am concerned, I can't stand that over-interpreting of ones own skills in any area. Even areas in which i do not have a 'status'. That problem isn't new, just - at least from what I observe - the color of it has changed. For instance, 10 years ago, there were plenty of high-schoolers who called themselves computer experts just because they knew what the task manager does. They were probably also recommended by friends and family every time a PC broke. If they were faced with a situation they wouldn't know, a majority would spend ours to figure it out in fear of loosing their reputation as a dreaded computer specialist. Nowadays, it's a lot more like this: The AVR fan-boys don't know anything else, so they fight against all else with all the power they got. Instead of learning new things, people seem nowadays more creative in reducing a problem to something they can solve. It's like people are afraid to get out of their comfort zone. And again, that's fine. I guess the bottom line is that everyone can do what they want. And they have the right to do it without being attacked by others (as long as it's lawful and not affecting others negatively). But the moment I post projects with, hmm, let's say an Blackfin BF592 and the only comments I get are of the: "Cool, got an Arduino sketch for that?", I get the strong urge to tear someones head of. And of course it affects my status. Ten years ago, when I put MCU / Processor skills on my resume, the hiring manager knew to value that. Nowadays you have to either specify what platforms you can use or you may actually get the question: "So you play with Arduinos at home?" While I couldn't care less about status, I care where it affects my wallet or has the potential to do so. Naturally. That has little to do with being selfish, but the fact that I spent over a decade learning those things that now get reduced to some 14 year old's skill-set. Of course that upsets me. No doubt. Am I being over-sensitive or am I seeing things too negative? Very well possible. But that's the thing with feeling and opinions. Everyone if affected differently with an issue and everyone works different.I debated a while back if I should include Arduino, Pi, etc. in my text blog or video blog. After all, I want to drive the blog hard this year. I am still not sure what the answer is. Maybe I should offer some "What's happening inside your Arduino" content and give people a chance, maybe. I do not know.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:20:42 pm
content: Quote from: KF5OBS on January 11, 2014, 07:16:28 pmRight. I do in fact agree.So, we've established that the issue is elitism.I wonder if OP will come clean.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:22:03 pm
content: I absolutely hate the bragging which seems to be concentrating to some Arduino projects authors. I just checked out reddit/r/Arduino and saw an "Fast Oscilloscope" project.The first comment about any Arduino or MCU oscilloscope being useless, was burned down. "Show me your attempt, or the best attempt you have found on the internet!". The commenter was even called an imbecile by the author.What do I do?I stop checking out things I don't like. I stop wasting my time. Chances are I don't visit reddit.com/r/arduino anytime soon.However, such douche bags can be found anywhere, also in hardware and software worlds.Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate any decent project on Arduino, the same way I can appreciate it on a dedicated AVR or PIC. It's the same as I think it's beneficial not to judge a project/design based on it's choice of parts, especially branding of parts. If you do, it's just as bad as an Assembly purist.In my opinion RPi and Arduino can be electronics if you approach them that way. If you approach them as copy+paste hardware and write some SW, yes it's a SW platform mostly. If you roll your own board and use the Arduino environment as a help for maintainability (it saves a lot of time on firmware side of things), it's much broader and in my opinion can be considered electronics.I think the most important thing of abstractions is approaching things in a pragmatic way. Writing readable & maintainable code is way more important than optimizing every line of code for the least amount of execution time or code size, unless you're pushing things to the maximum for any particular requirement.Just the same you wouldn't normally keep stock of a gazillion different 3.3V LDO regulators for prototyping, each with a different maximum current or input voltage.In the end I think engineering is the art of identifying what things matter most to get the job done and trade efficiency vs effort.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:26:11 pm
content: What's your definition of electronics?Here's one:QuoteIs using a Rasberry Pi or Arduino to learn or perform a task, electronics? Factually yes, of course it is. How deep into electronics one goes with it obviously varies but just because most (but not all) casual users of one of these devices is not delving deeper into the deep, vast pool of electronics does not mean they have not waded into the shallow end.Are they electronic engineers? - well no - of course not - not unless the swim out a lot further - but that was not the thrust of the OPs assertion.Quote from: 8086 on January 11, 2014, 06:52:11 pmAbsolutely!

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: hans on January 11, 2014, 07:22:03 pmOh yes, what you have seen there there is very common.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:42:22 pm
content: Allow me to further clarify:A transistor doesn't require a "bootloader" to operate.A diode does not suffer DLL error, and crash.Writing code to power on an LED does not teach you ohms law.Yet again, egos stamp all over a clear, simple point, so that they can stand their own agendas in its' place. If you can't or won't address the CLEAR point I'm making, then no amount of aggresive egotistical "debate" can help any of you, and is a waste of time as it still can't change the points I've CLEARLY repeated.I value my time, and as much as I'd love to have a calm, rational discussion, the noise seems to be drowning the signal 1000:1. I'll return again when the ego is killed off and rational thinking takes its' place.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 11, 2014, 07:11:46 pmThe LM317 as bought does not serve as a voltage regulator. You have to read the datasheet and build a small pcb around it with the right components. How simple that might be it involves more then sticking two wires in it, copy some code, load the code and done.That is in my system the difference between CS and EE.If you will or can not make any distinction ok but then everything that has any usage of an electronic device is electronics and even the zillion facebook users of this planet do electronics.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 06:30:02 pmI'm waiting for a semiconductor designer to come and get snotty with us for just plugging his chips into a board without understanding the workings at silicon level.....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:48:21 pm
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 07:03:04 pmThere just isn't enough meat in your opening post to sink your teeth in. In simple words: there is nothing to challenge. What kind of answer are you looking for? Acknowledgement of your alleged superiority? To me it seems you are just jealous of 12 year old kids who can create a much cooler device in less time than you can.@Rufus: you are spot on!

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:48:59 pm
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 07:42:22 pmAnd of course, you are the only one who could possibly be correct. As the pot said to the kettle...So tell me, what was the point of starting the discussion, when anyone disagreeing is wrong anyway?

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:53:44 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on January 11, 2014, 07:45:55 pm<insert blurb about mathematicians whose work lead to physics> <blurb about physicists whose work leads to materials and solid state electronics, etc>

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:55:14 pm
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 07:42:22 pmWe heard that several times from you yesterday. Usually didn't take more than a few minutes til you return. So talk to you in a bit.QuoteThe difference is, none of us plug a few diodes and resistors in a circuit and claim we know everything about semiconductors. Many Arduino, pi, etc. guys (and girls) do however praise themselves as MCU gods. Just check out /r/Arduino (http://www.reddit.com/r/Arduino) for a reality check.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: KF5OBS on January 11, 2014, 07:55:14 pmI know you weren't addressing me, but I've been on /r/arduino and it just seems like a nice community with fairly capable, helpful and encouraging users. Posting their little projects, not acting like they're anything special.What's the issue with it?

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:17:01 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 11, 2014, 07:58:30 pmI just threw up a little. You must have either checked out the wrong community or must have a distorted perception of it. They're helpful and encouraging in regards of helping other Arduino users build their over-confidence. In regards of being constructive and helping users to improve their projects, no. Anyone suggesting improvements gets shot down. But they'll give 200 supportive comments to someone who just made an LED blink. So if that's your interpretation of "a nice community with fairly capable, helpful and encouraging users", then yes, you're 100 % absolutely correct. My words would have been special-education community. "No, we don't criticize Tommy for writing every word wrong, he just can't do it any better. Instead, we congratulate him on his success of having written a novel. Despite that nobody can read it or understand it." But I don't really wanna go there because that's too far OT. Sorry.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: KF5OBS on January 11, 2014, 08:17:01 pmI don't see the problem. If it's so prevalent maybe you can post a couple of links to demonstrate what you mean?

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:24:02 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 11, 2014, 08:18:26 pmJust look at the comments. Many people suggesting improvements get attacked. In an "How dare you not to assume everything to be perfect"-manner. Just read through 2 pages of comments. If you then still need me to point some out. But then via PM as this is probably OT. I'm sure I can find some for you. To be fair, haven't looked there very recently so they may actually have changed.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 08:44:45 pm
content: You know, this is nothing new.For decades anyone who could write a PRINT statement in Basic thought they were a programmer. Anybody could be a programmer: teachers were the worst, but anybody who was outsourced was pointed in that direction. Absolutely atrocious. The only difference now is that anyone can be a web programmer. The ability to write bad code does not make you a computer engineer, or even a programmer for that matter.On the other hand, there's nothing to prevent a knowledgeable expert from using an Arduino or Pi in an embedded project. It's useful for one-offs, has an easy to use form factor, there's lots of software support and there's no reason to use their stupid IDE anyway. It's a matter of convenience to reach a goal. Just because I can use a bare chip doesn't mean I have to every time.And face it; almost everything has an embedded CPU in it now. That's the way to build things today. Get the basic hardware in place and do everything else in software. So you should be able to write the code to make your embedded processor do what you need it to do.It's not the tools you use, it's how you use them that matters.

author: jamesp15
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 09:29:22 pm
content: Arduino's and the like are great for getting people into electronics, not everyone can dive right in and show themselves (important for most kids and young adults) progress using a bare micro such. I have gotten a few dozen local kids (and their parents) into electronics by easing them into is starting with simple "copy and paste" sketches and moving on to more complicated things in time. Those who really are interested move on to do more and more "real" electronics (as some people call it) and those who arent really interested either move on to some other interest or keep going with the easy copy and paste stuff.In short, not everyone learns the same. Not everyone has a real full-on interest in electronics (some not at first, most not ever.) They ARE a good bridge into electronics for those who show a real interest in "doing more" or have the aptitude for it. They are also a fun exercise in making "something" they can see a real result from without any real effort for those who really dont have a deep interest in the hows/whys/etc of electronics but DO enjoy being able to "do something cool" that happens to be easy.I dont see why people despise these platforms for these very reasons. If you dont want to use them no one is forcing you, you have tons of other options with tons of different approaches to doing the same basic things.An easy bridge into learning for those with interest cant be anything but a good thing IMO, and those who never evolve past the copy-and-paste stage in all likelihood would NEVER have done anything with "real electronics" at all anyway.You and a minority of others may have been able to sit down and make (whats to you a relatively simple circuit) the first time you ever did something with electronics, but to many thats a huge barrier especially when today in school "teaching" electronics is telling you how to turn on a switch or the like. I used to teach courses at local schools (sponsored by my work) to kids who wanted to learn, but the program was shut down because "electricity is dangerous". Now I teach neighborhood kids and their parents, who show an interest. I give them all Arduino's and some basic components and start with basic stuff, half of them keep coming back to learn more where I ween them off the copy-and-paste stuff and move on to more advanced discreete stuff in time as they are ready.Sorry for the wall of text, this general topic always seems to confuse me since to me "how can it be a bad thing to have an easy bridge for people"...

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:25:10 pm
content: I really wish this forum had a policy of locking clear flamebait threads. Just reading the subject line is enough to make me cringe, because I knew it would get over 100 replies and yet nobody would actually learn anything. And here it is.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:51:40 pm
content: Okay, Arduino is a "bridge" - yep, I see that actually, and maybe my reasoning was a little all or nothing; sorry if I came across as elitist or closed-minded - both horrible character traits.Whether you stay on the "bridge" and never need to jump in and swim around a bit, all depends on how passionate you are for delving deeper, I think. I'm the type who LOVES going to the absolute lowest level possible, because that's just how curious my mind is; modules and sealed-off blocks are just barriers to my absolute learning. Even if I never fully understand EVERYTHING about that nebulous module, I'm gonna give it a VERY VERY good go, even if involves destroying casings and fixings, I'm game, even at a reasonably high cost, for the experience of at least trying to further my knowledge at a one-off cost of destroying a product (rarely, mind) is worth 1,000x more in knowledge than basic monetary value :-) (YouTube videos help save me money by watching someone else break something dismantling it, but even then - even if I watch someone else do it, I STILL want to do it myself - I want the *experience*, not a video of someone *else* having it)So yes - I still stand by my firm view as stated, that coding an MCU is not related to electronics theory, but possibly I've been mistaken for an elitist - sorry if I got you annoyed folks.Stay on the bridge, walk across it into the next land or jump into the waters underneath it and learn to tame or dodge the sharks swimming around - that's personal choice, but dealing with fear of the scary is, I think, far more rewarding and a more satisfying education.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 11:53:58 pm
content: Can any one in the pro-abstraction camp at least concede that at some point continued abstraction removes the person using that upper-level from the mechanics of the lower level and at some point they are no longer really involved in the core subject.I ask this especially of you Wilfred as you at least conceded to one of my posts by un-categorically stating "No he's a venture capitalist". Clearly this was a level of abstraction you deemed to no longer connect with the core technology and presumably as we traverse down through the levels of abstraction, eventually that user would be considered to be participating in "science" of that core technology.What probably needs to be defined is at what point is the line drawn in the sand and it seems to be this, that is the point of contention in this thread

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 12:11:39 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 12, 2014, 12:06:01 amAgain, it was not a troll post - you can call it "badly phrased", but I can promise you I do not "troll".

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 12:51:49 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 10:02:42 amthat is perfectly correct. But, the title of THIS topic , on EEVblog is : rpi and arduino are NOT electronics.And i agree to both. It teches programming. It does not teach electronics.QuoteGreat, good for you . Now make a me a crane with lego that can lift the cat. There's going to be a teary eyed kid when it finds that all his plastic pieces snap and the thing falls apart.QuoteWould you , given your extensive scale model dollhouse building experiece , dare to cut a hole in a load bearing wall to install a door in your house ? Note: this is a hobby home improvement, not "industrial elitist " scale exampleQuoteBefore you start playing with microprocessors you should know ohms law. You don't learn to drive a car with dads ferrari.... You use the old beater...Look i built a house ,now can someone explain me what cement is used for ?

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 01:04:16 am
content: Quote from: free_electronI think the cat would be rather upset also; never mind the kid, he didn't get dropped from a height onto a pile of painful LEGO bricks!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 02:11:09 am
content: An Arduino is not electronics just the same as a bread making machine is not bread baking.They are both tools to help achieve results over and above their intrinsic operation.Just as you can program a bread machine, but put in ingredients that would not make bread, but result in a glob of useless glop, so you can attach various items to the outputs of an Arduino and achieve nothing but burned up components.If you want to bake bread, learn what the ingredients do, and if you want to do electronics, learn what the components do.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 02:24:22 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 12, 2014, 12:51:49 ambecause ...Before learning Ohms law you should know complex numbers, because it makes calculating impedances so much easier. Before learning complex numbers you really should learn some number theory because it makes complex numbers so much easier. Before posting a single post on an internet forum you should take classes in formal debate. Before OH who the hell cares!Are RPi / arduino electronics? Depends on what you do with thetool. Is buying dc/dc converters on ebay and integrating them into your projects electronics? Or should you build those yourself because otherwise the That Is Not Electronics Police is going to withhold your chocolate chip cookie supply?Hell, I would use an RPi in anelectronicsproject if the GPIO was not so limited.If someone can program an mcu without knowing Ohms Law, do something fun/usefulfor themwith it, I say good for them. If a certain class of posts by arduino users makes you sad, buy prozac.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 02:43:33 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on January 12, 2014, 02:24:22 amNo, it doesn't "depend" at all; that's like saying "A fish may or may not be a fish, depending on who caught it". They are built FROM electronic parts, but require (almost) NO electronics knowledge to use, any more than I need to know how serial works to type on my keyboard.To use the Raspberry Pi, you need to boot it up and run an OS, and then learn to program it, which requires knowledge which is nothing AT ALL to do with electronics, and is a totally different area of technical expertise altogether. Unless you are learning to talk to the Broadcom chip used on the Pi WITHOUT a Pi, and learn how it works (which is impossible - it's NDA'd) then your "depends" is meaningless, since the Pi *depends* on itself to be a Pi for you to use it as one, and that itself is not a learning process which has much at all to do with electronics at the component level, (obfuscated even FURTHER in this instance due to a pointless NDA) - it is about coding and interfacing binary GPIO; computing, programming? Yes. Electronics? Nope... well, okay - maybe a TINY fraction.Same applies to the Arduino - you are either learning "Sketch" or whatever guff they call it, or you are learning to interface directly to the AVR, in which case you would be doing so with an AVR programmer, and would have no purpose in owning an Arduino. Again, you are learning coding and program structure which just so happens to control pins, which control things outside the Arduino, which happen to be electronic, by way of its' GPIO pins.You don't need to learn ANY electronics to write code, ergo these devices are powered BY electronics, but do not need to teach it or require it be understood in ANY WAY but the most basic "make sure you have X.XXv power supply" to be used.You need to know electronics to build a processor/computing-based dev board - you don't need much electronics knowledge to USE one.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 02:49:51 am
content: So, is buying dc/dc converters on ebay and integrating them into your projects electronics?No? Does it become electronics if I read the datasheet of the buck converter on there? No? Does it become electronics if I did a design myself, but then decided it would be silly to make PCBs + buy components at a far higher cost because then I would at least be doingelectronics. No? Does it become electronics if I then measured switching noise etc and maybe did a small mod on the bought-on-ebay dc/dc module?Yes, dc/dc converters are not Rpi's or arduino's, well spotted. But the thing is mainly about level of abstraction and pure semantics.QuoteIndeed. And how about this concept of slowly moving from " just using it" to "making small electronic doodles of your own that is connected to the RPi/arduino GPIO" to "okay I think I get the hang of it now, lets try a bigger project without RPi / Arduino / whatever". Not everyone has the same learning style.And yes, I do tend to agree that RPi in particular is not all that much electronics. The arduino is more likely to be a gateway from n00b sketch user to C/C++ programmer on AVR.

author: wilheldp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 02:51:28 am
content: A little background on me... I have a bachelor's degree in Computer Engineering which included curriculum consisting of roughly 50% electrical engineering and 50% programming (computer science). I did everything from designing a CPU from CMOS logic gates, to designing simple analog electronics, to programming a PIC using assembly, to programming an operating system using high level languages. Fast forward 10 years of using absolutely none of that knowledge and training in my career path.I stumble upon several "hackers," electronics designers, and other interesting people with YouTube videos (EEVBlog being the best, by far...and no just saying that to blow smoke up Dave's ass). This has gotten me re-interested in electronics AND programming. My first project after this revelation was an 8-channel thermocouple datalogger using an Arduino and several shields. It may have been "cheating." It may have been the easy way out. But it had lots of problems that ended up with me purchasing some test equipment, and really getting into the design of the shields and the meat of the programming and libraries I was using.I wouldn't say I have "moved on" from Arduino-based projects, but I am now getting into to designing some more simplistic project using discrete components. If I had something more complicated, I wouldn't hesitate to use Arduino as a tool to do the job. It would be stupid to avoid it just because it's easy. It WOULD be stupid to try to use Arduino in an application that didn't call for it just because it's easy (like using it as a simple timer when a 555 would suffice).That being said, I can understand the OP's point of view, although his rage is inexplicable and his discussion/debate techniques are flawed at best. I am a licensed Professional Engineer (PE) in the USA which requires significant education, experience, and a couple of 8 hour exams. There are some PEs that rage when engineers covered by industrial exemption (i.e., they don't have to be licensed PEs in order to do their job) call themselves engineers. Hell, I have worked with salesmen that had "Sales Engineer" on their business cards, and it doesn't bother me a bit. There are companies that call their janitors "custodial engineers." Does their title reduce the validity of mine? Nope. They cannot legally do some of the things that I do, and my education and experience speak for themselves. If you rage against somebody claiming to be something they are not, it says more about you than it does about them.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 03:01:29 am
content: Quote from: wilheldp on January 12, 2014, 02:51:28 amIndeed.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 03:11:48 am
content: Quote from: wilheldp on January 12, 2014, 02:51:28 am"Rage"? hahaOkkkkk...You think I am in a rage? Okay. Well I'm not, but hey; I express myself with vigour, but I don't let such things as this enrage me (you must be kidding).It's a simple topic that has been bent out of shape and conveniently twisted (by some) to try to make me look like a chump, because they didn't understand the inner machinations of the thoughts that formed in my mind to cause me to post this - well that's okay - I am more than happy to look like a chump if it amuses people - I don't mind a good laugh, and if that makes you smile, I'm ALL for itI am not here to ask you to change my mind - it was a post for responses, and a post which I have feelings about at a TECHNICAL (not emotional) level; feel free to disagree, I don't suffer from being affected by conflicting opinions - we can all think at odds, it's fineI didn't post this because of pride or arrogance - I suppose I am quite pedantic in many ways, and I posted it because *I feel* programming these platforms (there's a clue there - this is my *opinion* - you may react or reply how you wish) are not "electronics", even if they use devices that are powered by electronics. My post was to see how other people felt about my opinion - I now can see very clearly... many are calm, polite and rational, whilst others bring emotional issues and badly-veiled passive-aggressive attack vectors into it - okay, that's fine - all is forgiven - I'm not to naive as to take these stupid, short-sighted attempts at hurling abuse into recognition, because that would not do me much good - I'd be letting rude people commenting ignorantly, define my character... why would I do that? :-/Education? Licences? Legality?I got a bit lost - sorry - I don't see the connection.PS: Just a point; it's quite rude to insult people indirectly, if you are going to. Be man enough to say it directly; that's allIf you weren't being rude to me, then sorry.

author: wilheldp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 03:35:16 am
content: I understand your point. It would be hard not to since you continually bludgeon us with it every other post. I'm just saying that your point is demonstrably wrong as has been pointed out by many members of this forum, including the proprietor, that have more experience with electronics than you do (notably, I am NOT one of those people). Arduino is not fundamental electronics, but it is a form of electronics.Your last point about not attacking people indirectly is astonishingly hypocritical given that you very clearly attacked Ben Heck indirectly in the original post.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 03:50:37 am
content: Quote from: wilheldp on January 12, 2014, 03:35:16 amI got your point about Ben Heck - yeah - I should have just said nothing. I'll maybe edit it out, pretty ignorant of me.One point: The sum total of the people that happen to disagree with an opinion on a forum post, does not equal "demonstrably wrong" - it demonstrates, quite simply, that less people agree with me (on this one forum) than agree; I'm not saying I am "DEFINITELY right", I am simply saying that - at this point in time (this is a subject which I think about a lot, and of course my views may easily change) - I firmly *believe* these views to be true. On the other hand, you have said that everyone else is "demonstrably right" - an implication which is pretty bold, and pretty simplistic - whatever - it's fine - I'm okay with a few people on a forum thinking I am "definitely wrong", because I well may be so... AND SO may THEYFinal point - your overall tone speaks of legalism, licences, qualifications and "experience". None of this is provable or unprovable - we, mutually, do not have any way of forming such judgements - "experience" is unquantifiable - it's not a litre of water, of which you could have more than me, which would be definitive and obviously provable (even if you could measure "experience" SO simplistically... so what?). Okay - YOU think that a collective of people - relative strangers to one another, have, collectively, "more experience" in electronics than ANOTHER stranger - me. Right, as my old chemistry teacher used to say:1/ Method.2/ Results.3/ Conclusion.I'll enjoy your summary - sounds like it's gonna be a hard thing to write up.Anyhoo - time for Netflix. Take care everyone, have a lovely weekend

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 04:23:28 am
content: What annoys me,is when a beginner gets locked into using an Arduino,RPi,PIC,or whatever,to do some incredibly simple thing------not as an aside to a main complex job,but as the main aim.If a simpler method is suggested,not using these devices,It is totally ignored,& he/she spends about a week asking more & more questions ,finally burning up the best part of a week.If you were doing this at work,it would have been done in hardware in an hour or so,& you would have moved on.Of course,it equally freaks me out as an OF when some hardware people can't bulid an integrating network without using an Op Amp!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 04:33:43 am
content: The Arduino, as limited as it is, is a great way to get started with embedded systems. It doesn't support a lot of devices, but it supports those very well. Contrast that to the very diverse PIC/dsPIC environment where each family and even different members in a family seem to work in completely different ways. I run Gentoo on my home PC but I would not recommend it to a beginner!What I would like to see is for the (official) Arduino to be able to bootload blank chips in order to ease the transition from breadboarding to making custom boards.

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 07:22:11 am
content: I don't care if they're called electronics, mechanics, or even biology. As long as a person learns something from them, then that's good. Let them call it electronics, why would that be bothering you? as long as the distinction between hardware and software is established in the professional arena (i.e., industry, academics), then there's nothing to worry about as far the status of hardware design is concerned. I agree that the act of writing a program on a mcu is within the boundaries of computer programming, but as soon as you start connecting a circuit, wiring based on a schematic, handling capacitors and resistors, then that's an act of electronics no matter how simple it's.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 07:36:46 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 11, 2014, 11:53:58 pmFor a processor board like the Arduino or RPi the answer it really simple and clear. You are NOT doing electronics design if you simply take that consumer board and program it. Call it anything else you like, embedded programming, systems engineering, embedded modular design, whatever, but it's not electronics design. That includes plugging in shields and all sorts of other stuff. Same with using say National Instruments cards and using Labview or Labwindows CVI, or any other modular electronics/embedded system on the market.But of course once you start hooking stuff up at the component level to those boards, then you obviously have to know something about electronics, so therefore you enter the world of electronics at that point.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 07:39:14 am
content: I for one understands the OPs frustration shown in his opening remarks. I don't agree with his literal statement. Every field seems to have people with delusions of grandeur. ie. A web designer bashing the browser programers. ie. A new EE thinking the senior EEs are stupid. The list goes on.Yes, I have run into several Arduino elitists. Yes I have run Ito a few RPi elitists. Yes I have run into many EE elitists. I have even run into a few VB.net elitists. Years ago I found these people very annoying. Today I have much more pragmatic. Now I don't care how a person gets something to work. As long as it is safe and reliable.What still makes me sad is when these vocal elitists convince people that something can't be done. What they are actually saying is that they can't do it, and can't bare to accept someone else can. I have a cabinet of impossible things, built just to prove them wrong.The part of the OPs statement I do understand is from the Arduino elitist that rant on that their way is the only smart way. Anything their Arduino can't do is impossible or silly to try. These few vocal people seem to miss the point that the Arduino is not the entire electronics world. A pro Arduino programer is not synonymous with skilled EE. Thankfully I eventually met many more rational Arduino users than these vocal irritants.Sent from my iPad usingTapatalk

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 07:43:41 am
content: Quote from: amyk on January 11, 2014, 02:08:58 pmNot so IMO.I and many other started with the famous Tandy/Radio Shack 50/100/200 in 1 electronics kits.What's the first thing they taught you in those kits? not the basics of components and all the theory, but how to wire up all the parts following the visual guide, by the numbers.That got the beginner interested because it produced a result first go. Only then did they follow with a schematic and explain some components and what's happening.The point is, I don't care how people get into electronics, as long as they do. There is no right or wrong way to get into it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 07:46:43 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 06:30:02 pmIt is very simple, and I'm sure no one here would dare argue that someone who only know how to use an Arduino is an electronics engineer. So what's your point?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 07:55:05 am
content: Quote from: gxti on January 11, 2014, 11:25:10 pmThis forum is whatyoumake it. Don't want anyone to take "troll bait", then don't take it and lead by example. Posts like your one just now do not help, you've just added more noise to the signal.In case anyone forgets, this is adiscussionforum.Please continue to discuss the topic at hand.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 08:02:26 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 11:51:40 pmCorrect, it's not. It's programming, it's computer science, it's whatever you want to call it, but of course programming anything is not "electronics theory".But embedded programming has been an integral part of thepractical field of electronics designfor many decades.It's very difficult to find a practical generalist electronics design job in the last several decades that does not involve embedded programming in some form.Do you think the EE courses at practically every university teach programming for just for kicks? No, it's because it's a required practical skill of any modern electronics design engineer.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 08:07:40 am
content: I'll ignore the original topic of whether or not these platforms are "electronics", because that is an inane discussion; They are whatever you make them. Rather, I'll address the people who have a problem with it. (not that their opinion bears any consequence).I've heard many complaints along the same lines, repeated in various disciplines :Affordable video cameras/editing software/YouTube is ruining film.Music composition software is cheapening music.Digital cameras are destroying photography.... and similar arguments which suggest that improved access to technology contributes to mediocrity.I would like to point out one thing to them...

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 08:21:20 am
content: I love the Z80 processor, I wish they still taught stuff like Z80/68000 in schools.About a year ago, I started working on building a Z80 microcomputer, started coding the BIOS in a simulator because I don't have a ROM programmer. Sometimes I'd goof up and correct the code in hex, so long as I remembered the opcodes. Not really that hard as long as you know what endianness you're using.Anyways... I eventually hit a snag when I had a look at getting the boards fabbed. Large PCB's are just too expensive these days. (edit: I did consider moving a lot of the memory and IO logic to something like a PAL or FPGA, but that felt like that went against the scheme of the project - to be retro in design.)So as much as I think buying an Arduino/Raspberry PI is taking the easy way out, at least they're affordable.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 08:30:11 am
content: Well, seeing as this has turned into a firestorm, I'm voting +1 with the OP. No exceptions. :-)Grew up with valves and punch-cards in the 60s.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 09:07:31 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 12, 2014, 12:30:01 amI find this position far to broad.I am only an electrician and a hobbyist in electronics.I have built my own working analogue and digital stuff but when I see some of the technical threads on this forum, even fundamental concepts covered in depth, I realise that I'm not really knowledgeable in electronics. In fact the more I learn the more aware I am of how little I know.I have no idea what I'm doing when trying to stabilise a feedback loop but I can google, fiddle, simulate and other wise use trial and error techniques to get it stable. This is not electronics engineering and I know enough to admit it.As for your statement about pushing electrons, you are giving far to much credence to people with far to little knowledge. If you buy a bunch of extension leads and screw a couple of multigang outlets to a skirting board, this doesn't make you an electrician. I mean you could actually carry out this task successfully and be wholly convinced that electricity is a light viscous fluid with acidic properties

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 09:44:39 am
content: Looking at the Raspberry Pi schematic, it lacks protection on its general purpose I/O port and could do with a clamping diode across the NCP1117.You get what you pay for.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 09:56:29 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 12, 2014, 09:44:39 amIt's a computer not an indestructible electronics development platform. trying doing some funny stuff to your PC motherboard and see what happens. I permanently damaged a DIMM module once because I had one end in and one end out, couldn't work out for months why the computer was unstable.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 10:04:14 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 01:46:24 amThis looks like electronics to me:http://www.ladyada.net/learn/arduino/lesson3.html

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 10:05:01 am
content: Quote from: zapta on January 12, 2014, 10:04:14 amI think most people have figured that by now.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 11:17:29 am
content: To me it is electronics, and is really best treated as a hybrid module with a general purpose computer on it. Works well as a black box , but has the advantage of being both easy to modify if you are capable, or to use as is. You use it exactly like you use any other IC when doing electronics. Only difference it is red and has sensible pin spacings for use in a breadboard, and is not black with 144 pins in a BGA package. But both are electronic components.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 12:00:55 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 12, 2014, 11:17:29 amAn Rpi or Arduino is no more "electronics" than a regular computer or other programmable gadget is. Both contain electronics, and both can programmed. You plug power in, you plug some other pre-built input and output devices in and you can make it do something useful, but it's not "doing electronics" as we electronics engineers know it.For the user to be doing "electronics" as we know it requires, as I've said, a step down the rung to actually doing some discrete component stuff, using test gear, working some ohms law, soldering, etc.If however you buy an Arduino kit and you solder it yourself, bingo, you're now doing electronics.The big difference between the RPi and Arduino and regular PC or gadget lies in the level at which it was developed and ecosystem and community behind it.Google iPhone or PC and you'll almost never schematics and tutorial on how to add LED's and solder stuff, but Google RPi or Arduino and that's what you'll generally find. You'll be presented with schematic, the term "open hardware", tutorials on how to solder and add parts and build your own shield or whatnot. BY their very nature they drag the beginner into electronics as we know it (that's a good thing of course).Of course it's possible to use an Arduino and RPi and never ever solder anything, read a datasheet, know what a resistor is etc, but most people do in some way.So in theory, the Arduino and RPi are not electronics in themselves, but they are good slippery slopes into electronics.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 12:37:08 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2014, 12:00:55 pmAnd my use of the arduino is in circuits, I have but one arduino UNO board, I only use it to test code out while connected to a breadboard and then move quickly to putting the mcu on the breadboard with the parts or onto a vero board. Often i use the 8MHz version. My use of the arduino is solely for electronics as an mcu solution where required, I can't really what other use it has unless i has silly amounts of money and space and a very limited imagination and only use the predefined shields.the pi was always marketed as a computer environment, they claim you can make your own custom pc with it. Of course if you are clever enough to make your own interface boards great, but that is an extension of it's originally intended use.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 12:51:58 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 12, 2014, 12:37:08 pmYes, in this respect the RPi is more inclined to be used solely as a computing only platform, and have no "electronics work" involved, than the Arduino is.The Arduino board and concept soared to popularity on the back of Make magazine and the maker movement, hence it has always been closer to the DIY electronics oriented side of things.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 01:58:35 pm
content: Well the arduino was designed in such a way that you can achieve one off projects without needs to know too much electronics but having a grasp on coding (to say that it is good for artists is bollocks, you still need to code). so with off the shelf parts and plenty of money you can put together a system.On the back of that plenty of us have reversed engineered the system a bit and lifted the micro from the development board and put it into real custom designed electronics circuits. Like i said I don't think i have been selling batches of up to 100 preprogrammed arduino chips to some hobbiest that had blown 100 chips in his development board and I've had one company ask specifically for the 8MHz version so they are suing them for something custom and "electronic"

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 02:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2014, 12:00:55 pmThat is still monkey-see-monkey-do. The big question is: does it make sense to just get an Arduino? IMHO it is pretty useless unless you attach some electronics to it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 02:26:34 pm
content: that would be my point, i use the arduino as a coding environment but i use the actual chip like any other mcu with custom circuits.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 03:13:07 pm
content: i some what agree handy tools but not exactly electronics too high 'level' for that

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 03:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: Sionyn on January 12, 2014, 03:13:07 pmwell to be honest you can't but arduino and Rpi in the same bag.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 03:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 12, 2014, 09:44:39 amIt could also use a power switch; what a stupid omission. Also, who on earth decided that having the SD card stick out of the board SO much, was a good idea? If that was not possible, how about those new fangled "micro SD card" things; I'm pretty sure they're easy to get hold of.Finally... "Open" hardware? Hang on - the SoC is under an NDA; Doh! >_<

author: Pehtoori
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 04:12:06 pm
content: Some old grumpy with tubesIts just a "component" to get job done more easily, like opamp, no one is using discrete transistors to build one. World just goes to direction where things get easier, more abstracted. Its called progress. Yes someone has to understand low level stuff but others can build on top of that.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2014, 04:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 12, 2014, 03:54:11 pmThe Raspberry Pi is a set top box, without the box, or power supply at about the price of a set top box without the box or power supply. If Broadcom had offered the same board at the same price called a BCM2835 evaluation board hardly anyone would have heard of it.This thread reminded me to check on thishttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2016620887/quickstack-lets-make-it-easyand I see it got about 10% funded. Shame because it looks like a much better platform than Arduino and as easy to use. They obviously didn't choose a stupid enough name to appeal to the 'hip' maker crowd.It would probably have got funded if they named it "The gherkin pickle snot" or something.

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 12:35:51 am
content: I've always regarded these as just another layer of abstraction. Like every layer up you gain the benefit of off the shelf application at the cost of trading off performance, cost and functional understanding. Same as it ever was.

author: MrAureliusR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 02:27:57 am
content: Not sure if this is exactly the correct application... but I smell a LOT of this going around...You can't say that Arduino is or isn't electronics.https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-whitePersonally, I'm not a fan of Arduino. I tried a couple times to use it for projects, but the programming interface is simply awful. And I'm very experienced with serial connections. As mentioned before, the fact is that the Arduino environment itself isn't very well written or logically laid out. However, once again...https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 09:53:28 am
content: QuoteYes, fine. Suppose we accept this as truth. This "truth" then leads to WHAT useful conclusion, exactly?QuoteAnd the apparent fact that an artist, unskilled in the ways of electronics, can use an arduino to do something based on some web searching, code copying, and forum querying, that formerly required a real EE do do "hard design work" is bad? Because ... why?There was this lovely example a couple of years ago, where someone bought an LED matrix from China that they wanted to connect to their Arduino, but they had no idea how to make it work. But I wrote some low-level code and examples, and various other people took off with it, and some of them produced some really impressive projects. I thought it was a really nice (and rewarding) example of how open-source collaboration is supposed to work. Not everyone needs to no everything about every level of a project. (http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=21819.0)

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 11:30:50 am
content: Arduino and RPi development is not electronics. I mean of course, there are people who commit impressive projects using those, but again: those people in most cases could've used any other devboard and achieved the same effect. Sadly, the other 95% of arduino users are "boo-hoo-library-doesn't-work-i-can't-do-shit!" kind of crowd.If you're and electronic enthusiast and your library for Arduino doesn't work you code it bare metal and move on, if you're an averageArduino user you whine about something not working and start dumb threads on forums. That's it.It's similar to the difference between giving someone a fish or giving them a fishing pole. People need to learn bare metal and the use shortcuts so that they know the basics. Not the other way around.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 11:46:48 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 03:00:21 amI agree with you that RPi and Arduino aren't "real" electronics, more like Lego Minstorms on steroids, however I totally disagree with the above. I've worked with a few people in my life who had that kind of mindset like "why use an MCU? We don't need it. Look, with a few 4000-logic chips, some caps and other doo-dads, we can achieve this without an MCU!". But I can buy an MCU for under $0.50 which has an ADC and EEPROM. At that price point, why mess with analog circuit or discrete logic when I can just toss stuff into the MCU and be able to change it anytime for a lower or equal price? Similarly to the "people who don't understand the fundamentals of electronics think they are electronics people because they can write a program for Arduino", there are just as many electronics guys who don't really understand MCU's so well and they write them off as unnecessary as they design overly complex dinosaur circuits and argue that they are somehow superior.The same goes for programming. Unless one is dealing with tricky timing issues, trying to squeeze a ton of code into a chip that will barely fit, or is running at the very upper limits of the chip's processing ability, there is no reason to use assembler. And frankly, if one is in a position that only assembler will suffice, then in 90% of cases, the person has chosen the wrong chip for the application. But there are a lot of stubborn holdouts who will spend weeks working on something in ASM that could have been cranked out in a day or two in C... but they whine about the inefficiency of C or the code size or something else. In almost all cases, that doesn't matter.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 11:56:43 am
content: I've never even seen an Arduino or Raspberry Pi in my life, most of my time is spent doing asm and fault finding a wide variety of projects.That said, if they were the easiest solution to my next project I'd be using them in a flash. In fact I might just order one, just on the off chance it annoys the OP.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 12:26:10 pm
content: Of course buying an Arduino with a bunch of leds and follow the "how-to" to make them lit is NOT doing electronics.At the same way, searching an exploit on Google and use a webkit to attack a web server is NOT hacking. It's LAME.And I guess this is obvious for all.Using Arduino (better a bare ATMega) to build projects that require additional and properly designed electronic schematics is another thing.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 12:26:51 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 13, 2014, 11:46:48 amSame goes the other way round, people that think a MCU is the holy grail to every problem.Every component has its value and its domain to use it. If you know the restrictions/limits of what can be done with what components you realize that you need to know more then a single domain. That is why the real good system architects know analogue electronics, digital electronics, and what the application area's are for a DLP, MCU, FPGA(CPLD).

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 01:22:02 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 13, 2014, 11:46:48 amI couldn't agree more but I have to say I lament the days when mcu's were few and far between from a repair/fault find standpoint. The black box syndrome causes major pain in keeping old industry processes going, especially without all the documentation. As a result I've had to replace entire systems because of the inability to fault find past the entry into an MCU and the propensity for designers to want to protect their code. This problem was/is very prevalent in the merchant shipping industry where a backyard company in china would be setup for one or two ship builds and then disappear forever

author: Pehtoori
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 02:14:07 pm
content: What is electronics? Doubt anyone can define it very well. And does it matter?If someone writes how to get led blinking with resistor, Arduino and soldering why isn't that electronics? What you have to add to that design so you could call it electronics?Its just different if you make your living repairing or designing expensive circuits and play around as hobbyist. And its different if you spend man years making one elegant and novel design that pushes boundaries and someone piles components to board in one hour.We all are different skill levels in different things, but we don't achieve much by arguing who's definition of some activity is correct.I have a background in mechanical engineering and know what, I love machines that every 7th revolution does something, but every 28th revolution doesn't and so on. But they aren't very reliable and very hard to change, then came electricity to control the machine. After some time, came electronics and lastly software. I still hate when they put electricity to nicely chugging machine, but hey if you want to make products that are cheaper to make, maintain, change, you just have to.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 03:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 13, 2014, 11:46:48 amThat is a great point. In terms of practicality, this is an easy decision, most of the time. Moving functionality into software is almost always a net gain.Now, perhaps this is my upbringing, but I think one should learn the more complex variant of something before they are allowed (or allow themselves) to use the simpler version. As a child, I was not allowed to own a digital watch until I could quickly read analog timefaces. By the time I got good enough for my father to allow me to use a digital watch, I didn't want one anymore.In school, we couldn't use calculators until we learned to do long division and calculate square & cube roots on paper. We couldn't use graphing calculators until we spent a couple years graphing things on paper.I think diving straight into Arduino is certainly useful, and this is what I did. I regret that. When i was a child, I had all the X-in-1 project kits, but I've long since forgotten all of those lessons. In my adulthood I've learned a lot about software, so when I wanted to get back into electronics, I selected the Arduino as my entry-point. I wish I hadn't. True, it is flexible, and once you understand how microcontrollers work, you can scale up to larger microcontrollers pretty easily, but I really wish I had the fundamental knowledge of analog electronics, as those fundamentals would really come in handy right now.My point is that an Arduino is not necessarily anything other than an Arduino. It is not necessarily a toy, and it is not necessarily a proper solution. An Arduino certainly can be a toy, and an Arduino certainly can be a proper solution to a given problem.One should know how to implement their circuit in analog in many cases, as it will help them understand why their digital system misbehaves when and if it does. Remember, digital is just a tiny subset of analog, and even though you're implementing a digital system, outside of the microcontrollers it's analog. I should know analog better. Everyone (almost) should know analog better.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 05:35:55 pm
content: Guys, I think the question is pointless.I am sure Newton was not born able to do Euclidean Geometry. He probably started with trying to add 1 plus 1 and might even had problem with 2+2 for a while. 1+1 is not tensor algebra, but one certain has to start there before one gets to tensor algebra.Arduino, Raspberry PI, a simple fuse, a simple tac-switch, are all along a line of knowledge. Every one started with something much simpler than a switch, and we grow from there. We grow until we stops somewhere - perhaps one has enough, perhaps the simple reason of death when one can no longer gain knowledge.OKAY, so the guy exaggerated his achievement in his mind... So what. I am sure most of us at one time or another exaggerated. For the smart, the smart has a keen understanding of his/her own level of accomplishment. For the less than smart, they wont get it or they don't care.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 05:49:41 pm
content: @Rick Law

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 08:04:47 pm
content: Quote from: MrAureliusR on January 13, 2014, 02:27:57 amGreat website. Bookmarked. I have been using this onehttp://www.logicallyfallacious.com/

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 08:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: Noise Floor on January 13, 2014, 12:35:51 amThis is very true, and picking a good abstraction layer for a given problem is part of a good design.Quote from: Noise Floor on January 13, 2014, 12:35:51 amOften components from higher abstraction layers also have better performance and cost due the economy of scale.As for functional understanding, it is required to understand the abstraction layer in which you design but nothing prevents you from understanding layers above or below it. If you use op amps it does not mean that you don't understand transistors. Personally I admire generalists that can handle any layer you throw at them.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 09:36:07 pm
content: I first got interested in electricity while watching my dad fixing and soldering things. Then he began giving me some random parts and widgets like small DC motors and bulbs I could play with for hours. Then parents got me one of those suitcase-type educational kit things where you connected stuff by the schematics in the book it came with and you had a green wire only and everything looked like a spaghetti mess once finished but it was super-cool as you could even build a transistor radio with it! Plus, it was produced in Czech Republic (or maybe former Czechoslovakia, even) so you had labels like "reproduktor" or "tlacitko" (sorry to all the Czech guys out there; I know you find my language equally funny).Then I had some practical electronics workshops in high school and we even got to program 8051's in assembler. Then PCs were all the rage but some years later I picked up an Arduino. It was fun at first but I quickly realized the dumbed-down IDE, lack of proper debugging support was too much of an annoyance to me. Also, the crude hacks and growing breadboard-spaghetti I had to resort to in order to realize my project, made me into taking a plunge into "real" embedded design. So I learned some basic PCB design, installed proper IDE, got myself a real debugger/programmer, found out that SMT isn't really black magic after all and that you can, in fact, solder TQFP-144 0.5mm by hand. Most probably I wouldn't bother to do all that if it wasn't for Arduino which "bootstrapped" me back into the hobby. I cannot really picture myself just jumping straight into designing my little prototype without first getting an Arduino, realizing MCU's are fun and manageable, attempting to do what I wanted AND THEN realizing Arduino wasn't really the solution and looking for a way to overcome its limitations. I just wouldn't thought I could make it otherwise.Now I faced a task of throwing together a one-off Ethernet-controlled switch as a fun gadget for my workplace. I really wouldn't like to commit myself to designing a dedicated PCB, for both time-related and economical reasons. So I opted for an Arduino with Ethernet "shield" instead. Also, I'm not really that much into designing an Ethernet PHY using discrete components and implementing TCP stack in assembler, mind you.So, there you have it. Now, where do I place myself? Help me guys as after reading this thread I no longer know who I am. Who do I call myself: Arduino tinkerer? EE amateur? Delusional pretender? The question is killing me, I JUST HAVE TO KNOW.Just kidding. I don't.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 10:07:36 pm
content: I think these devices are getting far too much hate for the braggy "I landed an airliner" kids. They were meant as easy entries into embedded computing, which is a very real and very valid field. They allow an artist, maker, biologist, physicist, software professional, etc. to create a "thing" that is computer-controlled. This is pretty cool, and pretty valid.Now about not being electronics, yea it isn't.Who cares? When whoever is using these things to flash leds tries to do something custom and sophisticated, they will eventually have to learn electronics.Sure, the LED "blinky" project that all of us built out of caps, resistors and transistors when we were kids, should never include a microcontroller.Embedded computing is so useful that it can make you lazy, and lead you to build a $50 gadget where a $5 one would actually do the job better. But I see no harm in kids coming at it from that way, as long as they eventually realize that sometimes you don't need anything digital in your device.BTW it's funny how I'm a software engineer, and yet had to suffer through two semesters of control theory.I never thought I'd one day be glad I did, haha.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 11:21:24 pm
content: Quote from: bookaboo on January 13, 2014, 11:56:43 amLook for a kit that already includes the resistor and the LED.;-)

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 11:30:00 pm
content: I'm more in the "whatever works for you" camp.I find it silly to pay good money for an arduino board, but for others it's exactly what they need.I just purchased a PSoC5LP dev board so I could be seen to be in the same camp in a way.

author: Alana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2014, 11:44:06 pm
content: I do not see much difference between using Pi's GPIO and using LPT and COMs as GPIO. The biggest difference is device power consumption and cost and Pi may be a good production platform for home automation systems with connection to the Internet. But that's me.As for Arduino I used it once in a project and i think that "doing it quick Arduino way" was one of bigger causes of project's failure. Why? Because we thought that we would have enough GPIO pins and integrated USB connectivity would give us a boost in system development. Well - we lacked those 2 pins Arduino uses for quartz and we could not bodge that in the field because we haven't had proper ISP programmer to change fusebits. It's nice but as my example shows it can be critically limiting too.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 12:11:27 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 11, 2014, 01:46:24 amThere is no clear cut entry point for becoming an electronics expert just like there isn't a clear cut entry point for becoming an expert gardener. So if someone wants to think of themselves as an electronics (or gardening) expert then that's fine by me. At the end of the day it's just a self attached label and doesn't actually make them any more or less competent.Also, it isn't compulsory to even try and become a physics/electronics geek if you just want to play with MCU chips and maybe improve a manual task into an automated one.My advice is to find something else to complain aboutThere's plenty of choice out there...

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 02:35:09 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 13, 2014, 12:26:51 pmI agree - but as the price of MCU's has come down and their capabilities have gone up, they have become more often the go-to device for solving various problems that would previously use discrete logic. And there is a holdout cadre of engineers who didn't jump on the MCU wagon when it was getting started, and now are a bit behind the times. These folks will come up with ridiculously complex circuits that are bigger and more expensive than a simple MCU option, and usually justify it with anger over "young whips who think an MCU is for everything". It sort of reminds me of my programmer days when you had the dinosaurs who never learned anything after COBOL in college and spent their time reminiscing about "real" computers like VAX's and Burroughs and poo-pooing C, OOP, Java and all of that - but in reality they were just behind the times and making up excuses for their shortcomings.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 07:56:37 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 14, 2014, 02:35:09 amThat can be true in some cases, in my own experience if this happens it is for a very good reason: $.In the company I work for products are made in the 100000's pieces and if a discrete solution costs $0,20 and the cheapest MCU costs $0,40 you know the answer. Also don't forget the NRE costs (the costs of hours of labour) of the software process AND lifecycle management. More often the hours rise beyond the project estimation because it was not as easy as thought. And where do you store the software for later if a problem was found in the product. Where is the SW engineer responsible or was he hired and in the mean time let go again. All important boundaries that need to be considered before choosing let's use an MCU or build it discrete. On the other hand if a problem is found, software is easier changed then a discrete solution. As MCU's become more powerfull and cheaper I do see a shift toward the MCU's being used.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 08:00:15 am
content: Quote from: madshaman on January 13, 2014, 11:30:00 pm3 for AU$12, deliveredhttp://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-3PCS-Pro-Mini-atmega328-Replace-ATmega128-5V-Module-For-Arduino-Compatible-/141051863189?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item20d758a095&_uhb=1

author: Polossatik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 02:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2014, 08:00:15 amthis one is even cheaperhttp://www.ebay.com.au/itm/360732394240, 3 AUS /piece delivered

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 10:52:44 pm
content: Quote from: Polossatik on January 14, 2014, 02:42:02 pmActually that's a good deal, not much more than the unit price for the uC, but come on, this isn't what most people would call an arduino...

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 10:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on January 14, 2014, 10:52:44 pmI just bought a couple from the US and they were less than $1 dearer. They'll run arduino code which is all I care about, don't need shields for my project.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2014, 11:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on January 14, 2014, 10:52:44 pmSure it is. It is a legitimate variation of the Arduino (done Sparkfun) and supported by the Arduino environment.it's a just smaller form factor for those that don't need the shield support.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 12:49:59 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 11, 2014, 06:54:15 amAgreed! I am comparitively young and never had the opportunity to program for 8bit/16bit micros back in the day when all you had was ASM, so my expertise in that area falls short, I grew up learning to code in IDEs... but as time moved on and I got more serious, and moved into a real operating system (Linux) I ditched the IDE for a simple text editor with syntax highlighting... nothing can compete with that.Now, back to the discussion...I do not agree that the RPi/Arduino is NOT electronics, I believe more that the people insisting on using them for every trivial task (especially the RPi) are either not aware that there is a simpler/better way, or just plain lazy.People are getting lazy... look at the average desktop developer. 20 years ago using an interpreted language (IL) was laughable for anything that needed performance, but as computers got faster, people stopped caring and started using these languages because they started assuming that people would just have to pay to make their computers faster if they want to use their software.A good example of this is windows and the bloat-ware called .NET, sure, it handles all memory allocations for you, you do not need to know about pointers, or reference counting, you don't even have to understand any of the performance optimisations available to you such as SSE. All of these "Features" come with a price, needing a more powerful computer... the faster the common computer is, the lazier the programmer gets, and the faster the computer needs to be to work around the lazyness of the programmer. Vicious Cycle.I see the same thing happening in the EE world (even though I am pretty limited myself)... I wanted to build a digital TTL clock as a project with my daughter, so naturally I googled for any schematics I could find to use as a reference/base... but the first thing I found was a digital clock project, that used a micro! How stupid, this is a lesson in electronics, not code.I have seen a RPi used as a simple timer where a simple RC circuit would have done the trick for a few cents. HackADay often features RPi "Hacks" that use the thing in ways that are just down right stupid, and they praise the creator of the hack for using an RPi in the project.... They should be commending the person on their effort, but at the same time suggesting the use of X or Y that would better suit the project for anyone that wants to try it themselves.Anyway, that is my 2c on the matter.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 08:43:52 am
content: Quote from: gnif on January 15, 2014, 12:49:59 amThe schematics you are looking for are from the 80's , 90's pre-internet, pre-google. Takes a lot of years till everything you are looking for can be googled, with books they are now digitizing the ones written in the 17th century

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 12:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 11, 2014, 06:54:15 amA text editor doesn't have a debugger

author: SolarSunrise
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 01:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on January 15, 2014, 12:19:48 pmBut you can run a separate stand alone debugger (GDB for GNU toolchain) in an another terminal window. That's how I do it anyways. Sorry for going off topic...

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 01:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 15, 2014, 08:43:52 amGoogling "TTL digital clock" pulls up lots or relevant links, schematics, etc. Building one is a great way to learn about the basics of gates, counters, display drivers, etc. If you can find 7441 chips for the display drivers (or add high voltage drivers made from discrete transistors), you can even drive Nixie tubes for a display.There were a few commercial clocks built from discrete logic elements, but not many. Clock chips were among the first ASICs on the market, back in the early 1970s.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 02:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on January 15, 2014, 12:49:59 amThat depends entirely on what your goal is.Quote from: gnif on January 15, 2014, 12:49:59 amLet me rant a bit here. Your understanding of modern execution platforms seems quite lacking and seriously prejudiced. For one, nobody uses interpreted languages these days. Both .NET, JAVA, and even Javascript in your browser is compiled to executable code in what we call a JIT ("Just In Time") compiler.Yes, this was enabled by computers getting more and more powerful, but it's not as wasteful of resources as you think.I could compare it to shipping a 3d printable model instead of shipping an object, and then when it becomes necessary, the user (in this case the operating system) converts it to an actual object, and throws it into the recycling bin after use.No interpretation happens at all.Of course managed code offers a lot of services for you that make your life easier, while providing performance below what you'd obtain from a hand-optimized C code, but the difference isn't as bad as you'd think. It's more like driving auto vs. stick shift.By the way, JIT compilation is a thing even in the most performance-intensive area, 3d shader routines. These are painstakingly written in C and optimized to hell and back, but are usually included as a string literal in the compiled program.Then the driver of the graphics card takes the C code string, and compiles it for the GPU it will run on. This allows maximum portability and maximum performance.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 02:59:52 pm
content: I'm gonna reiterate my two cents:WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU.Some people want to learn every detail of everything they're doing, be it software or hardware. I fall into this camp often.Some people need to get the job done or minimise time and/or cost. I fall into this camp often.Some people just want to have fun and play and get familiar with new technologies or skills or techniques and are looking for the easiest entry point. I fall into this camp often.Some people have specific artistic/creative goals and want to get there with as little interference/hassle from their tools or technology. I fall into this camp often.Some people aren't quite sure what they want and their goals are dynamic, evolving over time and they need to try out and become familiar with many options before zeroing in on a solid direction. I fall into the camp often as well.One thing we all share in common is a love for what we're doing, and honestly, we're doing it for the satisfaction our hobby brings.In most cases I think whatever you're exploring or is working for you is just fine.I was actually unaware that one could acquire small Atmel uC based boards at such a low cost. So reading this thread I might find myself buying a bunch for when I can't be assed to lay out another breadboard with a voltage regulator, PS caps, decoupling caps, crystal and caps, power switch and indicator, reset button, resettable fuse and somewhere plug in my in-system programmer. It's a lot of hassle actually; one I don't mind normally because the effort is small compared to the rest of my projects, but, for just playing around, this is pretty convenient.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 03:25:17 pm
content: Not on the topic though, my personal feeling for this thread after reading > 200 posts of discussions, arguments and debates ....

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 03:55:34 pm
content: http://phys.org/news/2014-01-power-electronics-people.htmlEveryone can see this is not electronics it's cooking.Just to put some oil on the fire

author: Rascal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 05:08:59 pm
content: I heard a rumour that 'new' low voltage germanium transistors will one day replace the valve (tube)Whats next? Combining many of these 'transistors' into one component? Ha ha Science Fiction!!How could they do that anyway? Who would understand how to use them? And why would you want to use them?That's just not electronics!!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 05:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: KedasProbe on January 15, 2014, 03:55:34 pmlol - not so fast! the "littleBits" project page showing all the great things you can build with themhttp://littlebits.cc/projectsSo are you going to tell all those little kids they are not EE and that is not electronics then? ;-)

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 07:48:24 pm
content: I think the thread is missing the point. We aren't arguing whether LEGO robots are a good educational experience for little kids or not. (Of course they are!)The problem with microcontrollers, esp. Arduino and co. is NOT that they are too easy. The problem is that for many people, if you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. And embedded computer is a handy hammer indeed.Would I show a schoolkid how to build something simple and fun with an Arduino? Sure I would. Would this be a good experience for them? Yes! Would I incorporate a microcontroller into an LED driver? Well not unless I'd want it to send morse coded messages or be WIFI controllable...I do think the tide of anger against the overuse of MCUs is somewhat warranted. It often feels silly and wasteful. So I don't think it's justified to paint the naysayers as "get off my lawn" type dried-up old folks. Analog isn't dead, and neither should it be.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 08:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on January 15, 2014, 07:48:24 pmThat's true of a lot of things, and is not specific to the Arduino or any other tool/technology.For example; just because something can be done with fully analog circuitry, that doesn't mean it should, and that doesn't mean that a partially digital solution is necessarily a toy, or a necessarily bad solution.There are as many skewed perspectives on the analog side as the digital side. I've worked with many, many people whose derision of others' decisions boiled down to "if X didn't exist when I was your age, then you don't need it." This is a terrible approach to new things.

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 09:13:12 pm
content: If it helps you get the job done then that's what you'll use, even if it is too much overengineered in my opinion.As for it being electronics, it depends on how sophisticated the circuits are you use in combination with these devices IMHO.PSPersonally I prefer using little gnomes operating small switches to using an Arduino or Raspberry Pi.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 09:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on January 15, 2014, 07:48:24 pmI agree with you** If analogue were dead, then digital would die with it, since digital logic is merely anarrangementof analogue transistors, resistors, capacitors etc, only at afarsmaller scale than in discrete components, producing a high signal or a low signal, arranged to signify binary code output from the patterns they form.I speak for myself, being only 38 -farfrom "dried up", and as the OP, I merely started the thread to clearly make the distinction between teaching the operation ofelectronicallynebulous, abstracted modules, and then branding that knowledge as "electronics", as many "hobby electronics" sites tend to.It also seems to be a "fashion item" issue; something becomes "in vogue" through being hyped and tediously over-marketed and raved about, and then a million people buy one (many of whom will just buy one to see what all the fuss is over, and then throw it into a drawer to be forgotten about) everyone's trying to find an excuse to use it, just to be seen using it. They are attempting to "recreate" the success of the BBC Micro, and repeat success doesn't get "recreated", just because your passion for the past successes drives you to want to force it into happening.The BBC Micro was a success for myriad reasons:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~1/ The BBC were backing it, and had"The computer programme"on TV to accompany it, which was a massive boost to the meaning of the machines' existence.2/ Because the BBC were involved, and made"The computer programme"to appeal to school children, schools were the market which bought them en masse, and had curriculum lessons in which you'd learn how to use the BBC Micro (We had this, back in ~1986 - I used to HATE "touch typing" on the Beeb, haha!)3/ There was a command prompt on screen IMMEDIATELY upon turn on. Youhadto learn command syntax to make it doanything, or you'd be sitting at the prompt all day.I could think of other reasons I am sure, but I am rather distracted by other things for the meantime.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Anyhow, my main point in the initial opening post, was - and is - to clearly distinguish component level, physics-based learning of electron flow circuits, from off the shelf modules that people think will be the "magic" answer to every single project they will build, and often will tend to approach that simple module first, because it is easy (easy != best, always, as we know).I owned a Pi for 2 months; I did some pretty time-lapse videos on it, then sold it, not quite knowing what it's eventual goal is, and I got bored of it pretty rapidly - half-documented, a bazillion config files to faff with, too many broken bootloader components, poor consistency across revisions. Ugh - no thanks.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 10:48:10 pm
content: 2 people set out to make a digital clock as a fun exerciseWhich one has learnt the most, which one feels more accomplished and which one "looks" more electronic

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 10:50:44 pm
content: The most impressive part? The heatsink on the voltage regulator!

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 10:52:31 pm
content: The first person would be inclined to buy one of theseThe other, one of these

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 10:54:26 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on January 15, 2014, 10:50:44 pmThey've already learnt to improvise O0

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 11:07:21 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 15, 2014, 10:54:26 pmNotice the time? The guys on top are already at the bar scoring with hotties while the guys at the bottom figure out what to do with their leftover parts!

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 11:11:10 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 15, 2014, 11:02:36 pmWell that seems to be the inconsolable point of difference. To me one is an end user the other is a budding designer

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2014, 11:14:10 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on January 15, 2014, 11:07:21 pmThe guy at the bottom doesn't need to go and score a hottie. Clearly his mind is settled enough to take on such a task which means his already scored and got a home run

author: jamesp15
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 01:28:10 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 15, 2014, 10:48:10 pmWhich one gave a newcomer a sense that "hey I can make something" and their interest grows from there and they learn "real" electronics. (or simply they never progress past that point and they wouldnt have had any "real" interest other than curiousity anyway)Which one frustrated the hell out of a newcomer, they gave up, and never even bothered to take a second look at electronics again because of their frustration? (there are plenty out there that would. many newcomers need positive feedback, YES you learn a LOT more trying to troubleshoot said device, but not everyone has the patience or aptitude for that when they are just starting out.)Both would have learned something, both would feel equally accomplished (to THEMSELVES at least, which is most important). Only the maker of the second one would probably really care what an "old timer" thought of their personal accomplishments.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 01:35:53 am
content: I don't automatically become an RF engineer, simply because I push the "Start" button on my microwave. Electronics means studyingelectrons, oddly enough (the clue is in the title):(Google: "define: electronics")QuoteIf you get frustrated by a circuit...join the club. What; you think that *all* circuits should work first time, providing no opportunity for mistakes and analytical, diagnostic thought patterns and skills to develop? Ask our very own Dave about how utterly stupid that attitude is.If it means that you never return to electronics, then you obviously aren't destined to BE an electronic engineer, aren't determined enough, have the wrong teacher OR are merely in the "deciding phase" of what interests you and drives your passion, OR electronics wasn't for you.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 01:43:26 am
content: Quote from: rolandpenplotter on January 16, 2014, 01:35:53 am^^^ Doesn't that quote show that "Raspberry Pi" IS electronics, and so is "Arduino"? After all programming a computer really does concern itself with the "behaviour and movement of electrons in a semiconductor"; if it didn't, the computer would not do anything.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 01:44:20 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 15, 2014, 11:02:36 pmThe cheapest version would be neither--it would use a dedicated clock/display chip!What people are forgetting is that using an Arduino (or a PIC for that manner) can often be bigger & clunkier than already available dedicated devices.You can make a VOX circuit using a PIC,or you can buy a chip that does it all.Pre-PIC,one of my employers needed to make a "pretend" radio which would detect someone speaking into a microphone.They had an ADC,a crystal oscillator & a lot of other bits.When I tried to point out that there were already dedicated chips used in real radios which would have cut component count & adjustment time considerably,I was told ,"But it's not a REAL radio!"A PIC would have decreased the component count a bit,an Arduino would probably increase it!Then again,these were the same folks who took a PWM control,put it through a passive integration network,then through a couple of Op Amps with Level & Offset pots,theninto an ADC.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 01:46:17 am
content: Quote from: jamesp15 on January 16, 2014, 01:28:10 amIf all you're looking for is a sense of accomplishment, I can find you many things much easier to accomplish..RPP's right, electronics is about electrons (or electricity, I'd argue - most of electronics really could be done without ever knowing what the "magic particles" are, as long as the semiconductor fairy gives you some transistors). Arduino is computing with a fancy parallel port and a large number of shitty peripherals and less ESD protection. I'm sure that might get somebody into actual electronics simply by following a tangent, but it sure isn't an introduction to electronics.There's nothing wrong with being interested in embedded computing, but that doesn't mean you're interested in electronics.I'm all for more people getting into electronics both as a hobby and a career. I amnotfor dragging people in kicking and screaming (or drugging them with an Arduino). If they like it enough they'll push through the frustration.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 01:54:47 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on January 16, 2014, 01:43:26 amBy your definition my missus, whilst being an avid vacuum cleaner enthusiast, is "into" fluid dynamics, rotating AC machines, variable speed drives and waste management

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 01:55:22 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on January 16, 2014, 01:43:26 amClarifying:The thread title:"Raspberry Pi" IS NOT electronics, nor is "Arduino"... was explicitly saying that *implementing* Pi or Ardunio units to reach a desired goal, doesn't require the specific use of individual electronic components and the associated knowledge of their inner workings and physics, nor does it require electronics knowledge of ANY kind. Plugging a cable into GPIO, and then to another block, does not require the full, or ANY understanding of the underlying circuits, ergo, "electronics".I think most of you are intelligent enough to grasp this differentiation by now, surely?Thedeviceis madefromelectronic components and circuits, which cause it to function; how could it NOT be? I use a knife and fork daily which are made of steel - I don't call myself a metallurgist.Maybe you're dodging the point, or don't see it how I (and a few others) see it. If I am writing code in Python to wake-on-LAN my server remotely, I don't need to know how electrons flow. You can say to someone "this is an electronic solution" - that IS true, butyoudon't need to study electrons or ohms law to get it to work, any more than an iPad user needs to know about Li-Ion charging circuits to charge his iPad. Those who knew the electronics of the module you are using in order for it to be of use to anyone, were the person or group who designed, tested and built it.I'll be back in a while; I've just got to finish soldering this pin header to the while loop; won't take long

author: jamesp15
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 02:24:59 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 16, 2014, 01:46:17 amIts been a great introduction to electronics to a few dozen kids and their parents I have been teaching over the last few years... a few of them are now in college going down paths related to electronics, and the rest as serious hobbies. Most them would have never moved past that stage if it hadnt been for an easy bridge to entry. Better than them sitting there vegging out on console games and the like.And for a few dozen others, it satisfied their curiosity (a few limit themselves to copy-and-paste pre-designed stuff they find online, but most of them moved on to things not in any way electronics related.Keep in mind thats coming from my PoV. I rarely if ever use Micro's in my hobby projects but I am more than familiar with them so if I had to I could (I am not a designer at my work, I am a field repair tech, but the designers there do use a mix of techs.) I strive to help anyone around me with an interest to get into electronics and in many cases Arduino's are perfect for that use to gauge their real interest and help them grow that interest from there.

author: rolandpenplotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 02:49:12 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 16, 2014, 02:41:53 am"Old timer"?Excuuuuuse ME - I'm 38, and FAR from "over the hill", Mister!haha.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 03:16:48 am
content: So... Is being a member of the eevblog forum mean you are into electronics or does it mean you just like hassling nerds?

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 03:20:06 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 16, 2014, 02:41:53 amdE*dt >= hbar/2There we go.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 08:58:10 am
content: This has been a pretty silly topic starting right from the subject line but here's my 2 cents:I guess programming an Arduino and using a shield is not "electronics". I have no idea though how you can totally avoid electronics when working with Arduinos, that would be nigh impossible... I think Arduinos are greatt for what they we're designed for blaa blaa all that.Regarding AlfBazs example of the digital clock on which would teach you more, I'd say making the digital clock with an Arduino teaches you more USEFUL skills nowadays than doing it with a bunch of logic chips in 2014... Flame on!This coming from a person working as an engineer and having studied Karnaugh maps and all that.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 09:05:07 am
content: Quote from: Dago on January 16, 2014, 08:58:10 amWell that brings up an entirely different but valid point, if you want to work in the industry you are probably aware that the number of electronic engineers is rapidly decreasing and the number of software engineers is still increasing. The chance of finding work in electronic hardware is small compared to finding work in software development.I honestly can not recommend anyone to study electronics to become an electronic HW engineer in europe, or you must already be a great electronics hobbyist and then do the study to upgrade the theory, great! But studying electronics only won't get you a hardware job.If I had to guess only 5% of all graduated EE engineers end up in a real HW electronics position (in europe and my best guess is that in the US it won't be much higher).

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 04:59:23 pm
content: I wonder how much of this "RPI/Arduino are not electronics" whinging is borne out of an unstated attitude of, "Well, dammit, I WISH I MADE THAT."Forget all of the "Maker" hype that surrounds these things. Just concentrate on the fact that they're selling like hotcakes. Who wouldn't want their little side project blowing up to be some neat thing that everyone seems to want? I know I would.

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 07:40:52 pm
content: I know I'm a dinosaur, I just don't get them, I'm still happy working with tubes and transistors, lately IC's think I'll let raspberry Pi / Arduino , just pass me by.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 07:47:18 pm
content: Quote from: M0BSW on January 16, 2014, 07:40:52 pmI suppose this depends on your perspective. If you're a design engineer who needs to build some particular product, you use the tools and parts necessary to do that job. Maybe that's an FPGA, maybe that's a micro, maybe it's both, maybe it's all analog so you're using op-amps.If you're a hobbyist building projects which interest you, then too you use the tools and parts necessary. But I suspect a hobbyist building audiophile kit based on tubes has a project preference different from the guy building a MIDI keyboard. Neither is wrong.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 11:05:03 pm
content: This would be a good debate if it wasn't full of so much BS.Transistors have replaced Tubes where possible but not all.Composite chips have replaced transistor ccts for many applications but not all.MCUs have replaced composite ccts for many application but not all.Take note all the above examples with not all.The experienced EE wants a reason to use something new. "Because" is not a reason. "Because it's new" is not a reason either. For very experienced EE, "Because it's easier" is just as week. I have not met a single experienced EE that would not agree with a clearly expressed valid reason to use a new part or tool.For the new EE understand there are more ways to approach a problem than what the professor you had a crush on showed you in university. A little rant on this one. I am tired of watching EE advancement get reset due to what I see as ego. I was working on bioelectric polymers 30 years ago, what happened to them? Before the badgering starts, I was not the guru. I was a contributor not the leaders. We should be way past blinking lights.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 11:39:52 pm
content: meh, all of these threads are the same. It's usually one group venting frustration over being marginalised by some new technology and another defending it because they feel marginalised by the former groupYou've all seen the topicsASM vs CC vs C++C++ vs [insert favourite OOP/script here]bare metal vs rtosUsually the crux of discussion is top-down vs bottom-up. Discussing the pros and cons of each would be interesting from a purely academic point of view namely because from a productivity/commercial point of view usually top-down is they most expedient

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2014, 08:00:10 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on January 16, 2014, 07:47:18 pmYep I'm building projects for my amateur Radio, transmitters ,receivers and RF linear amps, in fact everything I build is for my hobby, including test equipment to help repairs, so you got it in one

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2014, 06:41:32 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 16, 2014, 11:39:52 pmThis. It's a tiresome debate, really.Use the right to for the right job, end of story.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2014, 08:03:30 am
content: Personally i see these arduino + shields and Raspberry stuff as usefull thigns that lower the entry barrier into real electronics. They allow you to get something done fast. Yes its not necessarily the most optimum solution, but that docent really matter when you are dealing with someone new to electronics. They need that feeling of success. I made this work feeling. That feeds interest to study more electronics and eventually they dont need Arduinos anymore.Are they electronics? They are definetly part of electronics if nothing more. They are like one of those electronics 100 in 1 experiments kits some of us played when we were kids.

author: lpc32
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2014, 11:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on January 11, 2014, 12:30:06 pmWhich ones do you have in mind?Quote from: VK3DRB on January 12, 2014, 09:44:39 amPrice was one of their main goals. The end-user price for the A version is $25, so it's not too bad.