Dutch Authority tests and prohibits several USB chargers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 05:26:44 am
content: Today the NVWA (Netherlands Food and Consumer Product Safety Authority) announced they are prohibiting sales on at whopping 24 (of 41 tested) USB chargers.Here is the overview, with pictures.https://www.inspectieresultaten.nvwa.nl/productonderzoek/usb-laders(Yes, Apple was tested. See the Flextronics branded)They are 10 years late, but they finally did some tests.Thisis the official announcement, in dutch.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 05:43:04 am
content: Darn, too late to be the one to submit this article...Of course, with only 41 tested, its a barely touches the topic. But it does show that when you buy local, you are really just getting the same junk as on eBay, just at a higher price. It's also interesting how many of the rejected ones are those typical small apple clone's. I got 2 of them myself...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 08:35:42 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 13, 2016, 06:05:59 amTrue but there are ways around that too and the test center should actively retest the products because they gave the ok for only the product testedYou can always put crap in any market if you want, and only respectable firms are cautious because of their expensive brand reputation.All the unknown companies that only exist for 1 year before renamed to another name don't give a cent for their reputation.So people should learn to buy products from reputable firms, the same way that no engineer on this forum will blindly buy a critical component for their design in a chinese ebayshop that has 1 star rating.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 08:37:32 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 13, 2016, 05:26:44 amThey fail! That is unexpected, was this the break risk that Apple did a recall on a year ago or are these the new chargers? Wow....Flextronic pass, Flextronics fail, which is which?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 08:44:57 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 13, 2016, 08:39:51 amExactly my point. I had a session with KemaKeur 8 years ago (dutch UL now differently named) and asked the same question, they had a lot of problems with chinese manufacturers years ago, they offered a correct device for the test which passed and they could use the KemaKeur, then the products that were shipped became worse and worse over time or to say it differently cheaper and cheaper and safety issues were threatened. So the question is if an organization that issues these kind of safety and quality certificates should have the obligation to keep track of the products being made to see now and then if the quality and safety is equal to the tested product. The reason being their name and guarantee is on that product. They are the only ones that can judge if the product is the same as the tested one.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 08:58:14 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 13, 2016, 08:44:57 amBut it doesn't work like that, for the usual reason... who would pay for it?

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 09:13:27 am
content: Sadly Finlan used to have very good system. All electric stuff needed pre regulator aproval before getting on market. Since joining EU and ETA area, thats gone nowAll sort of shit gets sold now. Your lucky if their after market checks cats one before someone eletricutes themselfs.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 09:30:23 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 13, 2016, 05:26:44 amHighly doubt genuine Apple charger was tested as there is a note that seller was outside of EU.Also I see only 10 being dangerous, all other state no documentation was provided.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 10:05:20 am
content: "Today the NVWA (Netherlands Food and Consumer Product Safety Authority) announced they are prohibiting sales on at whopping 24 (of 41 tested) USB chargers."Shouldn't they focus on more important things like toilet tissues?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 10:45:59 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 13, 2016, 08:37:32 amFlextronic is one of the companies that makes stuff for Apple. The rejected charger is the little cube that came with the 3GS and before.Evidence, recall of Flat type EU adapter:https://www.apple.com/nl/support/usbadapter-european/it clearly says flextronics on the pictures.And I'd have to assume the NVWA knows their stuff with counterfeits and would have sourced the Flextronics ones from an AASP.Pre-approval would be something the EU will suggest eventually. Because it will kill all startups because they cannot afford pre-approval. Ideal scenario for the big companies, I'm sure they're lobbying for that.We still have freedom in that respect.But it's sad indeed that 50% of the chargers was rejected. Maybe they should make the standardsfreely available.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 11:00:55 am
content: "So the question is if an organization that issues these kind of safety and quality certificates should have the obligation to keep track of the products being made to see now and then if the quality and safety is equal to the tested product"That would be so cost prohibitive that you wouldn't have any form of certification at all.A better approach I think is to shift that responsibility to the buyers and producers. If a bad charger gets you executed, or burns down your house, or zapa you phone, ...., hopefully you will learn a lesson and becomes a little bit wiser. You may sue the manufacturer for compensation and that will discourage the manufacturing and marketing of such shaddy devices.End of the day, people will have to be responsible for their own actions,, not others.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 13, 2016, 10:45:59 amPerhaps an idea is to check at point of entry (mostly harbor container) in the same way they do with products that infringe on european patents. No pass through and the owner has two choices: pay for the return shipment or pay for destruction. That is how patent infringement products are treated by the container load, I would not know a reason this is different than potential dangerous products that do not obey the EU rules.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 11:00:55 amIf there was any obvious way that an uneducated consumer would know or could see the difference between an approved and safe charger and an unapproved unsafe charger you are right.But they can't. Even the price is not always different (the seller pockets more money). There is no way anyone can see if a product is safe or unsafe, so the authorities should take care of that in the same way they force supermarkets to destroy and take back unsafe food like smoked salmon that is infected with bacteria.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:00:34 pm
content: "If there was any obvious way that an uneducated consumer would know or could see the difference between an approved and safe charger and an unapproved unsafe charger you are right."There is no better way to educate anyone than suffering the consequences of ones stupidity.Pushing those people to rely on a government agency does nothing to educate then, othertl than to prolong their inclination to not think for themselves.Like the old saying: giving a man a fish, ...., teaching a man to fish, .....That's how humanity evolved over those years.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:08:21 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 01:00:34 pmAgain, there is no way to distinguish one from the other, the danger is inside the enclosure which makes it invisible. Unless you suggest that everyone gets an EE education and opens their chargers so they can see what invisible dangers lie inside, you lost me.The same as that you eat smoked salmon and get ill, you should have known better and made first a bacteria culture in a petri dish let it stand on 37oC for a week, get in the mean time a biology degree on bacteria and differentiation, then analyse your petri dish under the $4k microscope and see if you can eat it.

author: g.lewarne
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:56:17 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 13, 2016, 10:45:59 amI wonder if the apple/Flextronics adapter that failed certification was the one that Rooparvar (batteriser) was always on about being some world saving miniaturisation and how great he was

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 02:32:49 pm
content: "Again, there is no way to distinguish one from the other, the danger is inside the enclosure which makes it invisible."I'm not convinced of that. Let's say that we live in a world where USB charger quality is a life-and-death situation, and the sleazy fakers from China are just so good that no one can tell a shady USB charger from a good one.What do you think will happen in that world? What would you do?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 02:46:06 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 02:32:49 pmTest isolation using a megger and slap a sticker indicating pass/fail before use

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 03:25:44 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 02:32:49 pmWe do, in fact, live in a world where USB charger quality is a life-and-death situation:http://www.righto.com/2012/03/inside-cheap-phone-charger-and-why-you.html.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 07:52:58 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 02:32:49 pmSorry I am not getting your point. My point is that at the moment non- EE people (majority of customers) can not tell a crappy unsafe USB charger from a safe USB charger except for Brand and price.If some reputable consumer electronics firm buys crappy unsafe USB chargers for €1.- a piece and places them near the registry for a €7,50.- a piece, they are going to sell.At this moment this electronics firm is not liable. That should change but what really should change is that those unsafe products are allowed to enter the country in the first place.We have an import stop for certain chinese cars because they are not safe according to our safety guidelines.So these chargers are now being found not safe according to our safety guidelines, hence they should under no circumstances be allowed to be imported, period.You on the other hand say that the consumer is responsible and it is their fault when their kid is electrocuted with a device that does not look to be lifethreatening.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 08:15:44 pm
content: "You on the other hand say that the consumer is responsible and it is their fault when their kid is electrocuted with a device that does not look to be lifethreatening."That's certainly not what I'm saying. I think the government should focus on things of more significance and leave trivial things of this nature to the free mkt.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 09:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 08:15:44 pmThe "free market" only cares about selling as much as possible and dodges regulations as much as possible to get there, if you want things to be safe you have no choice but to regulate and enforce it.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 09:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 13, 2016, 01:08:21 pmOf course, if you demand that all of your food goes through this process, you will end up with nothing to eat but McDonald's hamburgers.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 05:46:37 am
content: Require all chargers to be grounded? Then the really cheap chargers (that don't actually connect the ground) would be obvious with a simple multimeter test and the not quite so cheap chargers would be at least a little safer.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 08:33:37 am
content: In Australia the bureaucratic clowns have let all sorts of dangerous Chinese goods in. eBay is a great source of rubbish. Until we get strong enforcement of safety standards, people will die, like the woman in Sydney who bought an iPad recharger from a cheapo shop. She was electrocuted and then the Office of Fair Trading in NSW lied to protect the government's ineptitude. If the government had any brains, they would very deal harsh penalties on the importer. For example, $2000 fine for any eBay buyer of unsafe products for each offence, $100,000 and/or 12 months jail for any eBay seller of unsafe products for each offense.These lawyers speak sense:https://www.hcalawyers.com.au/blog/the-hidden-dangers-of-cheap-usb-chargers-and-cables/How 40,000 including their inhabitants homes at risk. "To Get Rich is Glorious!". Should be loss of face, 20 years jail, and confiscation of all money and property.http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/cable-girl-scandal-could-cost-80-million/news-story/6f8af4d1590fd580b234c98f1b1ada5cOr investor's apartment buildings. Should be 20 years jail, and confiscation of all money and property for the importers of this rubbish.http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/docklands-apartment-fire-hundreds-of-highrise-towers-to-be-investigated-for-fire-danger-20150428-1mvc9j.html

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 08:37:29 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 15, 2016, 05:46:37 am

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 am
content: There's no 100% solution! You can only go for a balanced approach. The first point is that consumers don't know which charger is good or bad. It's a black box. Authorities can't inspect every box full of imported chargers, not enough ressources. That would also make any electronic device more expensive and cause additional shipping delays. The resellers and buyers wouldn't be happy with that. The bad manufacturers found simple ways to sidestep any required certifications and tests. The best idea seems to require some certification and to have on office buying samples and checking them. And on the other side we need laws to punish bad manufacturers globally. Currently the chances are quite small that the owner of a bad Chinese factory will face any trouble when producing deadly chargers. Confiscating bad chargers isn't enough, since the importer will simply order another container with chargers in another color. They are so damn cheap.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 10:51:45 am
content: Quote from: madires on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 amNot if the law hunts down the importer and treats them like drug traffickers. The problem will disappear overnight. The hefty fines would more than fund the random import inspection service.Then do massive airdrops of all the confiscated electronics from a high altitude right onto those fake islands in the South China Sea, marked "Return to Sender".

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 01:20:44 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 amNo, but there are 95% solutions, and people/bureaucracies are already payed for that, and they do nothing about E-sales.So the first step is to remove these people, and replace them with people who are ready to take action.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 10:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 amYes, it could work if some authority did random inspections and verified products actually fulfill the requirements, and if not they make sure it hurts whoever is responsible for breaking the rules (and thereby putting people at risk). As long as it is profitable and without risk to sell dangerous chargers someone will sell dangerous charges; that is how the system works, by design. Sadly it feels like nothing ever happens unless it becomes a media shit-storm.Meanwhile:IKEA'sKopplacharger looks fairly safe.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 10:12:13 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on July 15, 2016, 01:20:44 pmThe problem is that whoever took action would likely seriously threaten local employment.

author: josem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2016, 12:20:31 am
content: The "Flextronics / DS" tested - the one that failed - is definitely fake.The real A1265 model was only ever produced with a US plug - flat blades.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2016, 12:54:15 pm
content: I went to my local standards office last year, and the warehouse was full, floor to roof, with fake primus style cookers, confiscated because they had a minor design flaw and would explode if run for an hour or three. They were waiting for the authority to run them through an industrial shredder and scrap them, all costs to the importer.Must call them, I need to take masspieces in for recertification, along with the massmeters.