End of an era: coal power ends in UK today - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 03:41:35 pm
content: Today is the final day of operation for the UK's last remaining coal power station.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/30/end-of-an-era-as-britains-last-coal-fired-power-plant-shuts-downUK's transition to lower carbon electricity has been amazing to see. I would never have believed we'd get here by now.They're planning for our first few entirely gas-free days next year. Currently gas never seems to go below 2 or 3 GW even on good sunny and windy days. Presumably it's too much of a squeaky-bum event moving to so little synchronous generation without some very careful planning!

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 04:33:10 pm
content: It's a shame we still have Drax burning wood chips from suspect sources, but it's a step.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59546281

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 05:07:06 pm
content: What will replace "Bringing coals to Newcastle" as a cliché?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 05:36:13 pm
content: Quoteimporting coal to newcastle

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 05:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 30, 2024, 04:33:10 pmI wonder how many planks they have to get out of a tree before they can call the rest of the tree wood residue ... 1?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 05:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on September 30, 2024, 05:49:36 pmAccording to a BBC documentary I saw, any number down to zero...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 08:00:03 pm
content: Lets hope there is enough power left over to power up the new electric arc furnace planned for Tata steel in Port Talbot. Maybe in time this will begin to compensate in a small way for all the jobs lost over many years in both coal mining, steel production and ship building in the UK. Please delete this post if it has delved too far into politics.PS, It's not just steel. We could be recycling aluminium as well. The EBike manufacturer Riese and Muller has to get their recycled aluminium from Portugal which a seemingly poorer country than the UK. We could be doing this in the UK.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 01:45:07 am
content: https://xkcd.com/2992gives an interesting numerical calculation of this era

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 02:01:07 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 30, 2024, 04:33:10 pmSo Sir Hugo Drax has given up on bringing Britain to its knees by the use of a nuclear armed Rocket ("Moonraker") & now puts his hopes on wood smoke?Better wise up 007!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 02:35:07 am
content: Quote from: djsb on September 30, 2024, 08:00:03 pmBoth steel production & shipbuilding in the UK were well on the decline, decades before climate change became a concern.The problem was that "the lesser breeds without the law" wanted to produce their own steel & build their own ships.In Australia, most industrial structures of the early part of the 20th Century used British steel, then we started using our own locally made steel---& even made ships to transport iron ore & all sorts of other cargoes.Now, sadly, even though large parts of this country are pretty much made of iron ore, we barely make steel in any serious way any more, & our shipbuilding industry is a "niche" one.These days, the large structures will use Chinese or Korean steel, made from Australian iron ore.

author: Bryn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 08:13:50 am
content: And yet to think that over a year ago, the UK was to have its first deep coal mine... how times have changed, eh?Also, we're the first country in the world to end it... let's hope others follow suit for a greener future.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 08:58:37 am
content: Quote from: Bryn on October 01, 2024, 08:13:50 amFinland was also the first country in the world many years ago... I think this is the usual branding thing where every country thinks they are the first. It only depends on the definition of "first" which can be adjusted to suit the needs.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 10:38:32 am
content: Another stupid move IMOP, last winter that power station kept the lights on frequently when the wind didn't blow and the weather has not changed since.Apparently the fanatics have also ensured we have amongst the most expensive electricity apparently of industrialized nations and a good proportion of my increasingly excessive standing charge goes in to subsidizing wind turbines to be turned off on windy days.So well done fanatics, what have you achieved on a world scale..........NOTHING!Just selfish stupid grandstanding

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 11:30:03 am
content: Quotenot quite,we only dug up 2 1/2 inches,we imported the rest even though we had plenty of the stuff buriedQuoteAnd nothing to do with a certain pm declaring war on the miners union and decimating not only an industry but many communities along with flogging of the nations energy companys to her mates to make the books look good.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 03:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on October 01, 2024, 10:38:32 amUK is already going to get screwed on EU carbon border taxes as is, they don't have much choice. They need to get rid of coal and they can increase natural gas generation and renewables relatively quickly, can't just knock out a couple nuclear power plants.

author: Bryn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 03:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 01, 2024, 08:58:37 amWhen did they do it? And how was that different to what Britain has just done?Quote from: fourtytwo42 on October 01, 2024, 10:38:32 amI disagree with that statement... we need to address the whole issue of climate change very seriously, even if it involves unpopular decisions made by elected politicians. Also, coal is a major polluter and I'm sure you know that yourself.Quote from: themadhippy on October 01, 2024, 11:30:03 amI know who you're referring to... but just so you know, it was Harold Wilson that began the trend of shutting down coal mines first. As for you-know-who, she continued this only with the early warning about climate change, long before every other world leader said the same thing decades later.

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 05:20:24 pm
content: I first heard John sing this many years ago, it seems apt now:https://youtu.be/jfTfFJFx3ac?si=-Bbn6hIDqeN_G0gdR.I.P old king coal, you did us proud.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 05:50:52 pm
content: Quote from: Bryn on October 01, 2024, 03:29:52 pmThe point is, we never did and I don't think it's any different to Britain, I'm 100% certain some coal use will continue there as well. We all agree using coal sucks and in many countries (such as UK or Finland) the amount of use is already down to amounts that are insignificant*. Rest is greenwash, marketing, branding. While in reality low amount use vs. no use at all have no environmental difference, "we use only a bit" does not sound as sexy as "we got completely rid of it", hence the latter rules in public speech. Yet, because it makes perfect sense to keep using coal to limited amount, that use will continue behind the speeches.*) e.g., I think amount of coal power used for Finnish grid annually is less than 1% of total production, and Finnish grid is one of the cleanest in terms of CO2,despite still using coal, so this kind of no coal / coal labeling is misleading and environmentally harmful. Or as fortytwo42 says, fanaticism. While, say, 30% would be really bad, 1% might be environmentallybetterthan forcing it to 0% and compensating by some other means.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 05:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on October 01, 2024, 10:38:32 amWell, I don't know how much is the electricity bill in the UK, but I just looked at my last bill and turns out I paid 0.099722 €/kWhIf you pay less than that, congratulations. If not, just let me say that most if not all of electricity here is generated from renewables. It comes from wind turbines, PV and hydro. Sometimes combined cycle gas stations have to get into the pool, then the kWh goes through the roof.That would include electric furnaces. Iberian Peninsula, where Portugal is, has a different set of electricity market rules than UE. If electricity in Portugal is cheaper, then melting there, better than in the UK, does probably make a lot of sense.So I can't help but know it can be done (at least here), and I feel happy it does make my electricity bill cheaper. Perhaps you should blame your politicians instead.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 06:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on October 01, 2024, 05:59:30 pmUK is one of those countries with significantly expensive electricity especially compared to extremely low natural gas price. This causes painful compromises e.g. resistance against sane technologies like heatpumps or electric mobility, since fossil fuels are so much cheaper per energy that they end up similar cost even if alternatives are 4x more efficient (use one quarter of energy).Most countries do not have such large imbalance in cost of fossil fuel vs. electricity so it surprises people like you. E.g. here direct electric heating has always been considered just normal and not much more expensive than e.g. burning oil which is the fossil alternative, because electric energy has been always relatively cheap.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 06:44:49 pm
content: Quotearound 24p /0.30€ here in the good ole uk

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 06:50:51 pm
content: My current energy prices in the UK are:Electricity: 23.19p per kWh + 70.05p per day standing chargeGas: 6.22p per kWh + 29.68p per day standing chargeSo, electricity is currently about 4 times as much as gas. Before energy prices started going crazy (i.e. 2019) the ratio was about 5:1, and they were both far lower.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 07:01:41 pm
content: Residential service in Chicago (today's bill) for comparison"Supply" $0.06889 per kwh"Delivery" $0.05103 per kwh"Other and regulatory" $0.0203 per kwhTotal per kwh: $0.14 = 0.126 euro per kwhFixed charges (including taxes, "customer", and metering) $24.13 = 21.72 euro per month

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 07:02:30 pm
content: Quotejeez i thought 57.86p per day was a rip off

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 07:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 01, 2024, 07:02:30 pmWhy do you consider it a rip off? There are huge costs in operating a stable grid, irrespective of how much energy you actually use. I think there is a rip off angle in a charge for fixed costs, and its this. Our residential cabling will not cope with all domestic energy coming from the grid. We see a noticeable voltage drop just from peak demands with the current modest loads on the cabling we have at, say, Christmas lunch time. A massive amount of last mile rework will be needed, but I see zero happening.

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 08:07:48 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 01, 2024, 07:02:30 pmI don't know where coppice lives, but the standing charge varies around the country and with vendor. My own charge is 49p/day (East Anglia).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 09:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: woofy on October 01, 2024, 08:07:48 pmOctopus, near York. Doesn't the standing charge also vary with the tariff scheme you choose?

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 09:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 01, 2024, 09:02:58 pmI believe it does.I'm also on octopus (intelligent go).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 11:46:45 pm
content: QuoteBecause very little of the increase in the standing charge is being used to maintain,let alone upgrade the network.its being used to pay off the debt left by the collapsed companys. we were told back in 2022 the average cost to the consumer was around £90, and the charge would be reduced once that debt had been paid.surprise surprise that aint happened,my standing charge today is £136.6925 more per annum than it was 3 years ago.

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 04:43:46 am
content: "Now, sadly, even though large parts of this country are pretty much made of iron ore, we barely make steel in any serious way any more, & our shipbuilding industry is a "niche" one."G'day vk6zgoHave you ever read Essington Lewis's history regarding Steel production in Oz?https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/lewis-essington-7185

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 01:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 01, 2024, 11:46:45 pmSo, your reasons are similar to mine. It ain't being used for what it is supposed to be. Did your standing charge increase on 1st October? Mine went up 5p.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 02:53:04 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 02, 2024, 01:04:44 pmAnd mine is 22.79EUR/month for transmission (3x25A incl VAT) plus typical energy contract is ~5 EUR/month, so nearly 30 EUR/month total. More than you guys. I don't consider it a ripoff. Years ago people were complaining about these monthly fees, then the trend was to complain about transmission cost per kWh, now the trend is to complain about energy price. Overall cost of electricity has not significantly changed when inflation adjusted, over half a century or so. There was a period in about 2005-2015 when the cost was below long time average and nobody noticed it, but once it started to increase back to normal a lot of complaining ensued.But people not understanding concept of inflation explains maybe 90% of complains about "increasing prices". The human brain bias to detect negative changes and ignore positive changes explains another 9% (upon noisy signal, brain detects only price increases and misses decreases, especially because no-change is actual decrease when inflation adjusted but this is harder to see). Last 1% is somethingactuallygetting more expensive. Like coffee and eggs are really more expensive here now than 3 years ago.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 03:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 02, 2024, 02:53:04 pmThere is a tradeoff in the way different places bill for the unit cost and standing cost of electricity. How much is the unit cost that goes with your standing charge of 30 EUR/month?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 03:41:31 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 02, 2024, 03:13:04 pmVery typical fixed price energy contract here is now around 0.08EUR/kWh (hourly pricing averages a tad lower but feels risky to some) and people complain to no end as 5 years ago exceptionally cheap 0.04EUR/kWh 2-year fixed contracts were available. Add transmission fee + tax between 0.04-0.10 EUR/kWh depending on where exactly you live and which you can't affect. Thus total (energy + transmission) is somewhere between 0.10EUR/kWh to 0.20EUR/kWh. If one says the pay less than 10 cents, they are lying. If one pays much more than 20 cents, they are idiots for signing to such bad deal. Standing charge (total for transmission + energy companies) does not vary that much, it's going to be roughly around that 30EUR for a house which needs 3x25A supply, maybe 20EUR somewhere. 1x25A contracts for apartments are cheaper, maybe around 15EUR or so.A lot of this is VAT (included in all numbers). Quick Googling says in the UK "home energy" is reduced 5% VAT. Here it's whopping 25.5%.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 04:29:17 pm
content: Quoteyep by 3.7p.but on the plus side the unit price is about half of what i was paying 2 years ago.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 06:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 01, 2024, 06:39:50 pmWell, to have oil or gas heating is usual here. Electricity for heating is perceived as expensive. However, when gas power stations get into the generation pool, prices here are the same than in the UK. Last time it happened was like 2-3 year ago.I can say there is a "C" price for heating diesel fuel, and I guess it's the same for gas. Probably that could explain it. BTW, only 30% of my electricity bill is energy cost, 70% is shit.Anyway my point was, phasing out coal is not a fanatic thing. It was done here IIRC more than a decade ago. There was a coal power station like 2 kms from my home. Getting rid of it improved our environment, there's no question about it. Now they make for it -and for nuclear- with windmills and PV. So it can be done, and one can feel the bill getting lighter along the way.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 06:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on October 02, 2024, 06:15:13 pmSimple Googling shows this is not true:QuoteSo it's the same as Finland (and probably what UK will be), a lot of talk about getting rid of coal completely yet still actually using it but to small enough extent it does not matter from anypracticalviewpoint of environment. To fully implement what is claimed would be fanaticism. I'm not aware of any country which has actually done what they say.Thing is, coal is politically much more stable than e.g. natural gas and is very easy to store, and some existing facilities are modern enough not to make sense to completely phase them out. In real world we need backups, energy solutions always are hybrids. Any country that claims to rely on one or two forms of energy is either lying or a reliability disaster.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 06:36:03 pm
content: I remember the old Sherlock Holmes films, where London was enveloped in fog, even before the catastrophic event of 1952.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_LondonChicago replaced dirty sulfur-loaded Illinois coal for heating sometime after 1970, although coal-fired power plants are still active here, facing a 2030 shutdown.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 07:47:39 pm
content: In countries with lots of former natural gas exploitation, gas is as easy to stockpile as coal. A little coal doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense when you already have a lot of gas.Keeping a couple coal plants in backup so you can replace a couple percent of natural gas in a Dunkel Flaute if you somehow run out of natural gas ... that's not a real backup of the backup, Simply rationing the natural gas in time accomplishes much the same thing. If you are say 50/50 coal/gas you have more redundancy, but the difference between 10/90 and 0/100 is negligible.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 08:24:06 pm
content: QuoteBut that requires investment from companys ,much better to let the storage rot and divert the savings to your shareholders.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 08:27:52 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 02, 2024, 06:27:31 pmYep, not going to argue about any government statements. I don't think we could get rid of oil and gas, either. Not even close. So a mix of sources will be needed in the foreseeable future. No question about that.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2024, 05:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on September 30, 2024, 03:41:35 pmI lived in Bedford UK when I was a kid and there was a huge coal fired power station there called Goldington Power Station. It can be briefly seen in the movie "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines" as in the image below where Terry Thomas is running along a train trying to save his trapped aeroplane. See below. Obviously, this shouldn't be there in the movie as the power station was built in the late 1950s.Also see below for an aerial view of Goldington Power Station. As a boy in the late 1970s I used to fish on the river Ouse right next to one of the huge cooling towers. The red dots were two of the best spots to fish. It was possible to wade across to the island tip where the red dot is. I fished there many, many times... I recall that the power station drew in water from the river to aid with cooling and then it was returned back to the river a couple of hundred yards downstream. I've indicated in blue where I think the cooling water was drawn in and then flushed back out to the river Ouse. There was a rumour that the fish liked the warmer water caused by the power station so the red dot near the exit point was a favourite place to fish. Lots of chub, dace, perch, rudd and the odd grayling could be caught in the fairly fast flow here. The river was quite shallow and narrow here and it was great for fishing with a stick float.The coal was brought in by train and I think it arrived as shown in the black solid lines on the left side of the image. I think the coal storage area is the huge black shape near the two tall narrow chimneys.The old Varsity train line to Sandy was already disused when I fished there but there was still a rail connection to the power station as shown by the solid black line in the image. I hope I've drawn it in correctly. The yellow dot refers to the power station sidings in the original image but I think this is an error. That yellow dot is close to the sewage farm and it is close to the disused Varsity line. So I'm a bit confused by whoever added the yellow dot.https://www.bedfordrivervalleypark.org.uk/heritage/goldington/The power station was demolished in the mid 1980s.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 12:46:36 pm
content: Although a noble goal on it's own, I'm quite sure the plan is devised and executed by nefarious fources, just like Brexit.If the UK wants energy independence, maybe they'd better start with planting trees everywhere they removed them the last 400 or so years.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 01:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on October 03, 2024, 05:44:54 pmErm, isn't that a few hundred yards down river from the huge sewage farm shown in your picture?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 09:01:09 pm
content: Maybe shutting down the last coal station was a bit premature.https://www.yahoo.com/news/blackout-prevention-plan-activated-first-121056673.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKweuFr42G8UBrPU2zLEiYmbF9lhgaHjLhrYxJcrbA5fxMS2BrxdSiLRnEKxHzZHioPmb80OvlNuZZ8tY8JVbFbaeIo1iqllwb0pcejk4-7HZXqodXTcWqFfebTIhjRONSpq0z4SmhpUy_PD1Lp_SlCc4Od0TF0DEjcsvKAWk5WZ

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 14, 2024, 09:01:09 pmThat graph is 'interesting'. It shows most (around 60%) of the UK's electricity is imported. What is used to generate that electricity? It is easy to shutdown a coal powerplant in the UK and claim a new environment victory but it likely means the coal is now being burned somewhere else with extra profit margin in between. Doesn't look like a financially healthy situation. As a contrast: the Netherlands exports more electricity than 'we' consume. Mostly to Germany where they have shutdown coal & nuclear powerplants.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 09:21:06 pmThat is a strange graph.https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=UK+electricity+sourcessays 7% of UK electricity is imported. That sounds more realistic.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 10:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 15, 2024, 09:29:41 pmMaybe on average, but when generation capacity is low, it is reasonable to assume more needs to be imported.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 10:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on October 14, 2024, 01:29:07 pmIt is. This fishing location was commonly referred to as the sewage farm. The sewage farm often leaked more than it should into the river and a common reply to "did you catch much?" was "three dace, two chub and three condoms" In all the years I fished there I think I only ever saw two or three condoms in the river but the sewage farm was known to sometimes leak untreated sewage into the river.I'm pretty certain it was the power station that actually heated the river temperature. There was a huge grill vent thing at the water outlet point from the power station. The water intake point to the power station was opposite the tip of the little island I fished on. I was just a kid back then but I remember there was lots of concrete associated with the structure that formed the water intake to the power station. The exhaust point was a big metal grill thing feeding into the river. It was so long ago I can't be certain though. I wish I'd taken photos of it all for a bit of nostalgia.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 10:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 10:20:46 pmI don't think the UK has the links needed for that much import.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 12:28:27 pm
content: Note that import of electricity (relatively low for UK) and import of natural gas (relatively high) to generate electricity are both relevant here. UK imports about half the natural gas it uses and burns quite a lot of it to keep the lights on. TheGridwatchsite has live update of UK electricity demand/generation/import.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 06:22:57 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on October 17, 2024, 12:28:27 pmThis is true for all of the European countries as none have the energy resources available to be self sufficient. Only thing is that fossil fuels are way easier & cheaper to store long term compared to electricity.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 09:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2024, 06:22:57 pmNorway, Russia, Iceland, European countries that could easily qualify as energy independent/self-sufficient.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 04:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 17, 2024, 09:41:41 pmIceland is only self sufficient in electrical power. Electricity is typically only 20% to 35% of a country's energy. It has become really common for people to make comments like this, equating electricity with energy.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 09:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2024, 04:13:04 pmAnd you'd be wrong:https://unstats.un.org/unsd/energystats/pubs/balance/2021/bgl.pdfElectricity more than twice the use of oil. Both dwarfed by renewable thermal (heating).It has become really common for people to apply generalisations to specific cases they haven't bothered checking.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:13:44 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 18, 2024, 09:53:53 pmI said typically, dumbass. You are really bad at reading anything that disagrees with your preconceptions. I didn't say 20% to 25% applies to Iceland. From that PDF you may note that Iceland imports oil and some coal, although its only about 10% of their total energy. That is misleading, though. Without much industry, they rely on huge amounts of energy being consumed in China, India and elsewhere to make all their stuff. Much of the bogus CO2 reductions claimed in Europe are actually just industry moving out, predominantly to Asia. Energy imports to Europe appear to reduce, but its just transferring to embedded energy in finished goods. Even Norway is only self-sufficient on balance. It imports lots of embedded energy in products, but exports a lot of oil, so it balances out.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:35:07 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2024, 10:13:44 pmNo, you said:Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2024, 04:13:04 pmWhich like the claim that zero European countries are energy self sufficient, is factually wrong. Iceland self produce the vast majority of their energy demands and could conceivably be energy independent, regardless of how much of that mix is electricity.Then you immediately add a generalisation as if that has something to do with the specific enumeration of countries with significant/plausible energy self sufficiency (you didn't quote anything else in the earlier posts).Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2024, 10:13:44 pmBut you did choose to add that, for what reason? how is that generalisation linked to what you quoted? Throwing out generalisations that don't apply to the specifically listed countries, thats you:Quote from: Someone on October 18, 2024, 09:53:53 pm

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:56:20 pm
content: QuoteAs long as none of its oil based

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 11:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 18, 2024, 10:56:20 pmBecause there are zero ways to make oil equivalents from other sources of energy ?Oh wait, that is 80-100 year old technology:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuelA country that uses a tiny proportion of their energy as oil could transition to producing their own synthetic fuel/oil. Energy independence is practical for some countries, and becomingeconomicallyrational.