Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pm
content: Hey guys,So... that's pretty much the question: why?For an example see the NanoVNA and most of things that come from that chinese operation with a ham radio handle.Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler.Their business model is to shovel as much low cost garbage as possible, to completely undermine the competition. They can do this because unlike businesses in other countries, they don't care about warranty, so their products don't have to be good, and they don't care about regulations or IP either, which means they can make those products for pennies.I'm kind of annoyed by this, because I've been bit by it several times already and I have suspicions that some of these sellers are also behind a recent attack against my server.Why is this happening and how can you work against it - is it even worth it?

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 03:15:01 pm
content: Everyone wants a nice Lab at Home but not every earns the £€$ to support it.Work against the Free Market?Mostly in vain, especially because you wont be able to regulate Chinese manufacturers so a bigfrom me.All you can do is raise awareness to those qualified, able and wanting to listen to you.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 03:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: SerieZ on December 19, 2019, 03:15:01 pmI wouldn't really call it a free market when there are tons of laws for me and none for them, but that's a much more difficult issue to tackle.

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 03:29:51 pm
content: I agree with you, it is unfair!Unfortunately China ignores/breaks WTO agreements left and right.I should pay them a visit in Genevamaybe they listen to me

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 03:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmI know that you can get quality stuff from China, if that is your actual requirement as a parts buyer.However, in my part of the world we have systematic and relentless monopolistic behaviour by local retailers who import a small selection of products at the lowest price possible and resell it to the consumer at an over inflated price under the guise of customer protection under Australian consumer law.And on the few occasions when a method to circumvent this by attempting to bypass the local mid level rip off, the retailers respond by lobbying the govt with the excuse that buying from China directly bypasses import duties/sales tax.The situation will not change while ever the big retailers continue to have secret talks with whichever govt is in power so that they can all slice up the pie.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 03:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmNanoVNA is not poorly designed. Design of original NanoVNA hardware is pretty good considering components used. Chinese did not design Nanovna.Eddy555is from Japan. Both NanoVNA and $7 LCR / Component Tester started as hobby projects. Authors did not even dream of how popular their project will become.QuoteLOL, no. With same success you can say that Daewoo is destroying RollsRoyce marketQuoteLOL, no. NanoVNA do not even pretend to be caliper. Those who buy 40$ NanoVNA or 7$ LCR meter *never* expect performance of "proper instruments" that cost most likely hundred times more. You get what you pay for and people happen to know that - no worries.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 03:55:15 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 19, 2019, 03:42:59 pmthey import what people want to buy, if you don't think import yourself ....it is hardly unfair to request the direct import play by the same rules (tax and duties) as local stores

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 04:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 19, 2019, 03:55:15 pmHow retail works is not importing what people want to buy, it's about importing what you can sell in bulk. I'm not disagreeing with you however.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 04:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 03:52:28 pmYes it is. The harmonic content makes it unusable for anything more than passive networks, and even there, it will have very poor performance. Most people who buy it don't realize just how bad it is.Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 03:52:28 pmExcept Daewoo has to play by the same rules. You can't order a Chinese car directly and not having it go through the same rigorous testing a regular car goes through.Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 03:52:28 pmOk... so why buy it then? I wouldn't buy a caliper that doesn't work.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 04:25:10 pm
content: Nah. For a hobbyist without lots of money the alternative is NO test equipment.Original NanoVNA is actually really accurate if you keep it in fundamental mode, and S11 measurements after warmup are almost comparable to the old HP stuff. Have you checked out the performance yourself? Measuring passive components are maybe 90% of what a hobbyist will use it for, and even for active components the square wave isn't necessarily a problem if the power is kept low enough. It's not a new concept - there have been several very similar open source si5351 based VNA designs and all the Chinese have done is productionize it. What laws and regulations are you talking about that is preventing you from doing the same thing from your country?Current NanoVNA variants are still a long way from encroaching on the market for real network analyzers, but in the next year (maybe by V3) the plan is to get up to performance comparable to the Copper Mountain VNAs (but at 1/10th the cost). There is nothing shady about what we are doing and I think it's all fair competition. OwOComm additionally has a commitment to open source hardware and will release PCB layout files at every product release.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 04:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 04:15:09 pmHave you actually tried it to say it have very poor performance? Seems you do not get what I am saying. For given BOM/price it is well built. You can't have VNA with pure sine signal source for 40$. You are getting very good price/performance out of NanoVNA.QuoteExplain how bad it is - in more details.QuoteBecause contrary to what you say it works and is very useful. You just have to know it's limitations. Have you actually tried to say it does not work?

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 04:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on December 19, 2019, 04:25:10 pmThat is not true. Someone who's willing to use a VNA that doesn't work, has plenty of better options in the used/broken market.Quote from: OwO on December 19, 2019, 04:25:10 pmReally? Then I would like to refer you to this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nano-vna/msg2783756/#msg2783756Where you are quoted saying the following:Quote from: OwO on November 14, 2019, 06:02:50 amQuote from: OwO on December 19, 2019, 04:25:10 pmWarranty law, RoHS law, WEEE law for starters. There's a lot more than this.Quote from: OwO on December 19, 2019, 04:25:10 pmLike the other products I was talking about, they encroach on the market by selling a too good to be true product, to a customer who then loses the appetite for that said product, and often not because he got what he wanted. The customer loses, manufacturers who make good products lose, future customers also lose, because they might not get to see a good product on the market anymore. The only winner here is the chinese seller who sold something nobody else would have dared to sell.PS: @ogden, this reply is for you too. Hope it answers your questions.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 04:50:02 pmShow where we can buy used 300MHz VNA for 40$. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.QuoteSo it seems like you do not have experience with NanoVNA, yet have strong opinion about how bad it is. Kinda reminds me 60Hz versus 144Hz computer screen refresh debate where strongest opponents who said that 144Hz is just marketing gimmick were those who have no actual experience of comparing two.Just an example from same thread you were referring to:

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:08:22 pm
content: QuoteYeah, there I said accuracy is bad above 300MHz (harmonics mode). Here I said S11 accuracy is good if you keep it to fundamental mode (below 300MHz). Calibration removes errors except linearity and noise, which are easy to check for: noise is obvious; linearity is most easily checked with a length of low loss coax (making at least one circle around smith chart), or simply calibrating at the end of a long cable and then measuring a short, low loss coax.Most of these are RoHS compliant. When living in "the west" I've had better luck with aliexpress dispute system than I've had with retailer warranty, but YMMV. I don't think aliexpress sellers can really easily get away with selling junk that doesn't work. If your country regulates local businesses tough but gives imports a free ride, it's up to your country to fix that. China has nothing to do with this and does not meddle in other country's internal affairs.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:12:13 pm
content: You do not need to own a harmonic based architecture VNA to know its deficiencies. Everything OP said is true.@OP: Regarding the question in the Subj line, it is a basic phenomenon of human greed, people have to make make efforts to overcome it.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on December 19, 2019, 05:12:13 pmWhy you guys are so obsessed about fact that nanoVNA in it's harmonics mode (above 300Mhz) have poor performance?That is no secret BTW. Up-to 300MHz it works pretty well.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:18:59 pm
content: I don't think chinese gear is garbage any more. Look at the esp32 for example, there's nothing like it. Or the Micsig STO1104C, pray tell what western world scope is like that. They make things that for the price just can't be made in the western world. I was looking the other day for a PoE chip, and the SiLabs evaluation board (*) is 70 something $, for that money I can buy 17 complete PoE ready to go chinese isolated splitters, complete with case and cables.(*)https://www.silabs.com/power-over-ethernet/powered-devices/class-3-15w

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:21:02 pm
content: Capitalism 101: "If you don't like it, don't buy it"

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:36:12 pm
content: Regarding aliexpress dispute system, let's not kid ourselves, after you've marked the transaction as complete or the protection time is out, you are done.Quote from: SilverSolder on December 19, 2019, 05:21:02 pmThat's true, but again, this is not a free market and I'd like to hear about ideas on how to work against this as a business. And by this, I mean the fact that the chinese seller has all the incentives to be disingenuous, cut corners and lie to the customer, while the local manufacturers have to play by the book.For example, a local company wouldn't risk selling something without thoroughly testing it and wouldn't market specifications that they can't verify, because if they did that and invested in production, and then sold their product to 1000 people and then, 6 months down the line they all find out that the product has a critical flaw that makes it more or less useless for most of what it was specified, then maybe 700 people will return their products and that will bankrupt the manufacturer. A chinese business doesn't have this issues, and that's why they get away with shoveling garbage.So, what you're fighting with as a business, is not only cheap products, but bad products that are marketed as cheap good products. How do you combat this?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 19, 2019, 05:21:02 pmProblem here is ... "I dont like it, but somehow I keep buying it, hence I whine a lot ...

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:49:25 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 05:36:12 pmIt is already said million times: don't buy. In general I agree that there are many products that are made to defraud naiive buyers. Unfortunately you picked one of worst possible examples (NanoVNA) to prove your point because that product actually have good price/performance ratio.p.s. Where is used 300MHz VNA for 40$?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:49:58 pm
content: Many EEVBlog forum members are guilty to have heard instinct. It only takes a prominent forum member to make a post about some wonderful piece of cheap shit he got and everyone will rush to buy same shit and empty the sellers stock in no time. Good for the seller.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 05:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on December 19, 2019, 05:49:58 pm$10 process calibrator?I had a good laugh when I first saw the video about it being a POS and only then the original thread

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 06:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 05:36:12 pmThat is not an issue. Someone who isn't able to figure out and take the cheap products for what they are is never going to buy your good expensive one.There is no such thing as someone being discouraged from getting a given tool because a cheap one didn't have the required performance.If they still need the tool and can afford the good one that's assured to get them what they need they'll get it.But I don't see so much competition there. In the hobby market most of those who buy the cheap stuff would not buy the good expensive tool in the first place if it was the only thing that was available. They get the cheap one becasue unlike the other they can afford it and the amount of cashe that gets immobilized into it is reasonable compared to the usage they'll be making of it, and the good one often does way too much compared to their actual needs.I've bought a couple dozen cheap tools and I've never been disappointed, I've actually been positively surprised more than once. But then again I looked up in advance what they were capable of, so if it's such a problem I guess that's too much to ask now?Also the Chinese stuff often has somewhat "gimmicky" features but that can actually turn out to be quite useful sometimes and that "serious" manufacturers would never consider becasue they're not "professional" enough.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 06:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 05:49:25 pmYou keep pushing the idea that it's food from the heavens, when I just showed you that it's not. Click those links, see for yourself. Also, it's marketed as a 900 MHz VNA, not a 300 MHz one, and no, it's not great under 300 MHz either.Regarding the $40 VNA, I'd like to underline the fact that you don't have a $40 VNA that works either, and yours can't be fixed.I actually got a 6 GHz VNA for ~$200 several years back. It was a fixer-upper but I got it working.Quote from: Kilrah on December 19, 2019, 06:06:03 pmI don't think that's true. It's clear that these purchases are an effect of impulse buying (otherwise they'd buy something from a reputable manufacturer). This means that the impulse buyer, if the impulse is strong enough, could actually buy a quality product that would serve him well and help the market.On the other hand, maybe it's better for the impulse buyers themselves to just buy cheap stuff, but that's not as clear, because he's basically conned into it, and it's hard to make a case for that.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 06:34:33 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 06:21:06 pmDepends on the price difference, but usually in test equipment it's large enough that this has no chance of happening.I will "impulse buy" a $100 tool, but a $1000 one will not go through without thorough reflection of whether I really need it, how much I'm going to be using it, and whether I can find an alternative solution. Most of the Chinese tools <$100 I'll get one "just in case" and not care whether I actually end up using it, but the day I do I'll be happy with my purchase.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 06:40:54 pm
content: Remember the old saw:"If it is too good to be true, then it is not true"."Caveat Emptor"."A sucker is born every minute".And many similar.Deceit in sales is as old as mankind itself.I am pretty sure that in ancient times during the bartering process of -let's say, certain amount of sheep for certain amount of olive oil, perhaps a sheep in the flock was sickly, and some of the fresh oil had been mixed with stale one.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 06:21:06 pmI say that NanoVNA works upto 300MHz,provided screenshot, you did not show anything that disproves that.QuoteDefine great. Every VNA shall have specs same or better than industry leading boat anchors costing (new) > 2000$? Thats nonsense argument.QuoteNanoVNA works. Proof is all around the internet. Seems, you choose to ignore everything that do not match your beliefs and fallacies.QuoteSo even broken VNA was 5x times more expensive than 40$. You disproved your own claim that for 40$ there are better options. - There are not.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 07:19:58 pm
content: This isn't for your market only, is from every market from chairs to VNA'sThe fact is that China is killing all industries, in any part of the word, and as time passes China's quality increase, and other markets decrease due to low quantity markets. I guess is too late, and China is starting to take a bite of high end, things also look at the 1st Rigols Scope and look at the latest, we must admit that the quality increased a lot.The only real problem in China products is the Chinglish and do not have real aftersales support, but sooner or later they will learn these also.Unfortunately, this is an incontestable reality, and the situation just keeps worse, while they improve, and now are starting to play the innovators rule.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 07:26:21 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 19, 2019, 05:56:05 pmThe difference with that is the parts were worth way more than the units. I stripped one of mine for a project and I'm probably up $40.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 07:35:50 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmI believe that this is an incorrect assumption as there is no singular market for any product. As other posters have noted, there is more than one market for test equipment, VNAs or whatever and to again repeat the previous sentiments, competitionis alwaysgood.The growth of low cost segment does not necessarily 1) affect any other segment nor 2) need to affect any other segment negatively. A low cost offering introduces more people to the product which GROWS the markets for all segments (new users will then upgrade to higher cost units for better performance). Furthermore, it fosters competition and ensures the market leaders keep innovating and offering value.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 08:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pmOk... first of all, let's point out that you agree that it only works for 1/3 of the advertised bandwidth (which supports the points I was making on the actual topic of this thread). Second of all, I'm going to disagree with that too, because look at these harmonics:https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/attachment/1707/0/IMG_0564.JPGThat's a 10 MHz output signal from it. It might not mean anything when you're analyzing a linear, non-active device, but stray from that and it's gonna waste your time. By comparison, the $200 boat anchor has an extremely clean output (see attached).Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pmI think the beginning of this reply shows exactly what I mean. It doesn't have to match the boat anchor, but when I look at that output, "not great" is the nicest thing that comes to mind.Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pmIt doesn't work across the specified bandwidth, aka "doesn't work".Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pmI never claimed that there are better options for $40, I claimed that for people willing to spend $40 for this, there are better options (for example, a $200 broken VNA, that may require some work). If anything, what I claim is that you can only produce garbage for $40.Quote from: BillB on December 19, 2019, 07:35:50 pmI'm inclined to disagree here. This is not the reason I started this thread, but the reason I mentioned NanoVNA specifically is because it has actually killed a tiny market segment I was targeting with one of my products. NanoVNA was launched about one month before my product was 100% ready, but by the time I was ready to hit the production button, it was too late and I realized it would have been a tremendous waste of money.This is not the only time this has happened, and I'm sure I'm not the only small time manufacturer who faces this, so I would argue that not only it affects MANY segments negatively, but it completely kills competition in some areas and hinders innovation.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 08:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:01:04 pmyou lost, so NanoVNA is not competition or innovation ??

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 08:25:57 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 19, 2019, 08:17:00 pmNot sure where you're going with this. It's not fair competition.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 08:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:01:04 pmNo. Performance is specified for each frequency range separately: Measurement range: 70dB (50kHz-300MHz), 50dB (300M-600MHz), 40dB (600M-900MHz));QuoteRight. Test signal is square wave. You correctly point out that it won't do any good with nonlinear RF devices. That is no secret, nearly every review points that out.QuoteBS. Broken 200$ VNA is not VNA until fixed. How much it cost in good condition?QuoteShort memory? See for yourself:Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 04:50:02 pm

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 08:45:44 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:25:57 pmwhat part is not fair competition?

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 08:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 19, 2019, 08:45:44 pmThe part where they got so many sales because they lied about the specs. If a local company would sell you shit and said it's roses, it would go out of business, even if people figured it out 1 year from now. That's not the case with these sort of products tho. These sellers' goals don't extend past getting your money, because once that's done, you're stuck with it, regardless if it does what it's claiming to do or not.Edit: The unfair competition comes from the different application of the law I guess, but that doesn't mean you can just sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not there, it's something you have to find a solution for, and so far I haven't heard any.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 09:00:19 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:57:08 pmLOL. I wonder - why Rolex is not out of business then?

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 09:03:06 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 09:00:19 pmI'm willing to bet Rolex watches are working within spec. Are you suggesting they're lying about something?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 09:15:40 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 09:03:06 pmNo. I am suggesting that you are wrong. There are so many Rolex fakes coming from .cn yet they do not even seem to be concerned, not to mention that they are doing pretty well. Search "rolexable watch" or "custom logo watch" in alixpress, you will see.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 09:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:01:04 pmCouple of points:1. If the $40 widget does all that is needed (meets the user requirements), it's useful and money well spent.2. So they killed your yet to be released product because they came out with a widget for the same market you wanted to sell your widget in. It's not their fault your widget failed and in a free market they are not obliged to consider the impact of their product on your business. You developed a product that got crushed by the competition and staring a thread to blame the Chinese for your products failure archives what?Perhaps you could have added value, or differentiated your widget, perhaps priced it differently, thought about an expanded market, I don't know you've not made your case why your product should have been given special consideration or even why it's better than the $40 widget. It's tough when you misjudged the opportunity and price point but you seem to be implying the need for protectionism in the market because in this case it woulds suite you and shifting the blame away from where it really belongs.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 09:58:43 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 19, 2019, 09:32:58 pmI see, so if I tell you I'm selling you a Ferrari, but instead you get a moped, it's ok, because it turns out you only wanted to get to work?Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 19, 2019, 09:32:58 pmI'm not blaming anyone (maybe the lawmakers a little), I'm trying to find a solution.Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 19, 2019, 09:32:58 pmPretty sure I made that point several times already. Anyway, I invite you to re-read the thread and formulate a rebuttal for my points before attacking whatever you think I'm doing, because your answer implies that this is a level playing field, which I have already proven that it is not.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 10:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 09:58:43 pmnone expects to get a Ferrari for the price of a moped, so if they get a moped for the price of a moped and all they needed was a moped everyone is happy except the Ferrari dealer who was never in contention anyway

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 10:11:50 pm
content: I don't understand the complaint. Apparently you (almost) have a product which does something similar to the nanoVNA, which you would have brought to market at some price higher than the nanoVNA.If your assertions are true, that your product is far superior to the nanoVNA, your product should compete well. As long as it is priced to be in the range of the target market.Traditional VNAs are targeted towards companies with large measurement budgets and will never be purchased new by hams and other hobby people (with the occasional exception of a very wealthy dilettante). Broken VNAs require luck and skill and time to be brought into operation. I, for example, have a very good VNA that was acquired for virtually nothing. But it will require a few hundred dollars of cables and other parts to even reach the point of turning on and finding out if it works. Thus this path to very low cost will be viable only to a very few fortunate people such as yourself. But it does indicate a general price range that might generate quite a few sales.So why haven't you tried marketing your magic widget? Even as a test by posting a thread here with the specifications of your device, some pictures of your prototype and some test results and then asking how much interest there is in buying at the proposed price point. You seem to have given up on your product without really trying, and are blaming the Chinese for your retreat. Your complaint is only partially legitimate. At worst they have only taken a portion of the bottom end out of your market. Of course you have been warned in this thread that V3 is on the way, and it may take a much bigger chunk. If you wait long enough your market opportunity could disappear completely.Your assertion that the nanoVNA claims to be more than it is has some merit, but the market usually sorts these things out very quickly. Your marketing could very easily show the areas of superiority of your widget, and your claims of superiority will be quickly tested by several on this forum and in other venues. Those who need the added performance will pay more to get it. The only question is whether they will pay as much more as you think they should, and more importantly, enough more to let you profit on your device.There are markets for all kinds of measuring instruments. I own and use rulers, steel rules, cheap calipers, good calipers, cheap micrometers and good micrometers. All measure distance. All do a useful job even though the best ones have accuracy roughly three orders of magnitude better than the worst. Your device per your description fits in this range of measurement quality, and could well have a market.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 10:46:43 pm
content: @CatalinaWOW, your analysis is correct, with one exception, and I agree with the rest (hopefully you don't edit it to something silly).The exception is that I have tested the waters. And the answer was clear, and so was the reason.To remove all ambiguity, and hopefully switch the discussion back on topic (finding a solution for this situation), the device in question was a simple 2.9 GHz tracking generator that met the linearity and spectral purity specifications of the 85640A. So it was targeted at a subsection of the market the NanoVNA is targeting.Regarding pricing... let's just say that single components in that device are more expensive than the shipped NanoVNA. You simply can't do RF on the cheap - I tried.That said, I'm not blaming anyone, contrary to what it was suggested by some posters here. I think everyone does what feels normal to them and this is the situation we're in. This includes local manufacturers, chinese manufactures, buyers and even law makers. Also, while I do get pissed off occasionally when things don't pan out, I don't hold grudges and if tomorrow it would make sense for me to, for example, work for NanoVNA or any product that inconveniences me, I would.So to clarify, the "complaint", or better yet, the problem that I'd like to find a solution for, is that manufacturers from this side of the pond, are competing against some practices against which it's very difficult to compete, while being held back by laws (that I honestly find normal to a degree).I think that finding the answer to this puzzle, of how to compete in this situation, is key to a success story in today's economy.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 11:12:11 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 10:46:43 pmTracking generator is very specific product for advanced (existing or future) users of spectrum analyzer who knows what they are doing. Such knowledgeable "customer" with much deeper than 40$ pockets, would never trade proper spectrum analyzer with quality tracking generator for something like NanoVNA. You have to find another excuse for failure of your product.QuoteBullshit. Customers of test equipment are not like those who are easily influenced by TV commercials. It is already said - people are not stupid. Also if 40$ VNA does not work but your device does - then why you are whining? NanoVNA is training ground for your future customers!

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 11:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 11:12:11 pmDon't know why you keep ignoring what I sayI literally mentioned in the previous post that I did the market research prior to going into production. And I wouldn't say the product failed, because I'm a happy user, it just didn't go into production because of <Stack overflow. Infinite recursion detected>.Edit:Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 11:12:11 pmThat's what I thought too, but it's clearly a bad assumption. I've been following this phenomenon a lot and I can give you at least 5 other examples from the top of my head, but I don't want to go on another tangent like the one we just finished (I hope).Edit 2:In fact, let me state that I've been guilty of this myself, and I still can't fully understand why.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 11:36:39 pm
content: Exactly. If your device IS significantly better then show that it is and that might justify the price difference.Again I maintain it's probably not the same market entirely. The customers for a $40 VNA will expect it to have severe limitations, if they buy it it's either that they feel that'll do for them anyway, or just that there is no better option that's viable for them becasue the next step up is multiple thousands - in which case your device could be filling a gap.And for many (most) people an old used item is not an option, especially if in need of repair.Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 11:20:09 pmThe fact you've done a market research doesn't mean you came to the correct conclusions at the end of it

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 12:44:27 am
content: Most people, including I would guess most of the people here, want more for less and in so doing turn a blind eye to human rights abuses, sweatshops and exploitation as long as they can get more stuff for themselves. India and China are basket cases of forced child labour so their rich can get richer, and we in the west can enjoy something for next to nothing. In Australia, we are seeing rich CEOs being exposed for robbing their lowly paid workers of their basic entitlements.We need to think twice before buying some test gear and other electronics from China. Maybe there should be a global good corporate citizen register, so we can avoid dealing with those those who are dodgy; and support those who care for the environment and their employees; and make a good quality product that they innovated (ie: not made with stolen IP).There is one company at least in the USA that recently shined a light on generosity...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 12:45:31 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 10:46:43 pmOK. There are still two parts of this I don't understand.First. Parts cost exceeds $40. Sure. I don't know your BOM, or how you determined BOM cost. There may be opportunity to cooperate rather than fight by using Chinese components. They do have labor cost and environmental law advantages which makes them viable at lower price points. And business models that lets you get OEM prices at small lot quantities. And your sales price doesn't have to be $40. It has to be a value proposition for someone who wants your tracking generator. I don't know what methods you used for your market research so can't comment, but you haven't revealed anything which makes your product impossible.Second is similar to first. Join most other western manufacturers and have your widget manufactured in China. Again to get your costs down.Ability to compete in this economy in my opinion requires three elements. First, a realization that first rate brains are a worldwide commodity, and that your intellectual labor will be competing with those willing to work for less than western world salaries. This means that your business model must either allow much more efficient use of that intellectual labor due to your unique knowledge or experience or willingness to compete on price. Second, there will be a period of very unfair competition as low cost economies have less stringent requirements on a number of cost elements (environmental, work protection .... ) in all phases from raw materials to final assembly and test. As these economies become more mature the playing field will level somewhat, but probably still by tilted by different opinions on what is fair and just. The only way I know to compete with this is to join it, but buying material, sub-assys and so on in those markets. And finally an intense focus on small, unique markets that don't bring on the full force of competition. Those of us in this forum are fortunate. Almost everything we do meets this requirement by definition. Just be glad your product isn't a sweatshirt or a coffee maker.A fourth element may exist. We have it so good in our western economies (even here in the US with our patchy safety nets derided by most of Europe and the ex British empire) that it is hard to be as motivated as those who are one generation away from starvation level farming. It is worth thinking about whether this applies.

author: CajunSTD2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 12:56:45 am
content: Pure and simple because they see a value in buying this so called "garbage".I am starting into this hobby because my wife has two old jukeboxes, a Pacman Game, and electro/mech Pinball machine.I don't need anything better than Chinese branded tools, they have way good enough specs for my needs.As a big time Harbor Freight buyer, I am well aware of what i am getting.My money is better spent on my family than some piece of gear with more capability than I need.If I find that it no longer meets my needs I am not out a large amount of money and can upgrade to better quality.Also if I decide that this is not my forte, now i have to try and sell this gear, and recoup my cash.Why buy a Ferrari if you only need a Kia?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 01:28:41 am
content: Wait, didn't go into production? So this product was designed, built, and tested?Why not post the details in another thread and we can actually have a useful discussion here about your design.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 01:30:22 am
content: If so many people are nuts, and you are not nut then does it tell more about you than others.One observation I have made here is there are more and more people going nuts here. I am a long time nut, and enjoy being so. Frankly I do not want others to become nuts, so I can enjoy my advantages forever.Nuts or not nuts, don't deal with the dropshippers. There are so many on ebay, banggood, etc. They are the roots of the problems to buyers and also original Chinese makers.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 01:35:06 am
content: @CajunSTD2, you must be thinking that I'm being insulting to people buying this stuff. I'm not, and as I said before, even I am guilty of doing it. I'm actually doing my best to describe what I see when I look at these products. As unfortunate as that word is, it's the best I can come up with, without having to list a number of assumptions people make when they look at them and think otherwise. I'm not blaming the customer for not realizing/knowing those things, because they're not as obvious as for other devices, like a drill press or a vise, and not everyone is supposed to know them anyway.Also, don't think that I don't get your point. It's a very good one. There is certainly a need for what you're describing, and I understand pretty well how this came to be, but the fact that it creates difficulties for local manufacturers is undeniable.@CatalinaWOW, again very good points, but I'm already leveraging Chinese manufacturing wherever possible. Any more than this and I'd risk getting cloned in week 2. I assume a bigger company would have better options when working with China.Quote from: thm_w on December 20, 2019, 01:28:41 amYes. I might actually do that.Edit:Quote from: all_repair on December 20, 2019, 01:30:22 amVery difficult to do that. I think eBay is full of them.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 01:44:13 am
content: Quote from: CajunSTD2 on December 20, 2019, 12:56:45 amVALUE? If ou will read what these people write you will typically see kind of "it only cost a few bucks, what do i have to lose, Ali will refund me if anything", followed by WEEKS of nervous posting of their refund status.QuoteKeep it that way my friendQuoteYou must be kidding. WHO will want your garbage? You will pay more in fees trying to sell.Quotebecause you do not know any better.

author: CajunSTD2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 01:46:26 am
content: I do get your point and think it is valid in some aspects the title does poke a nerve.The great issue with any discussion like this on a forum is everyone has their views and there is no nuance orcontext, it feels like an attack on you or I when you are just asking a question that has you befuddled.No problems from me, peace love and good happiness stuff.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 01:56:09 am
content: Quote from: CajunSTD2 on December 20, 2019, 01:46:26 amYour points are valid given the context of your life, considering adding him to your ignore list, you will have a better time around here

author: CajunSTD2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:00:56 am
content: Bud, I am talking about the purchase of good quality tools and then trying to offload them if I get tired of doing electronics.Will I be able to recover what I spent on a failed hobby? If nothing else i can give the cheap stuff to a smart young kid or a STEM class and if theybreak it, no big deal.YMMV

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:01:23 am
content: Yah, he does not even do a proper research. nanoVNA was by hobbyists and for hobbyists. If nanoVNA is his competitor, there is no respect given to his competitor. Unlikely his shall be open-sourced, and nanoVNA is open-sourced with contributor all over the world. Add a more powerful version 2 is round the corner.

author: CajunSTD2
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:02:01 am
content: Nah, i like people watching, it is a fun side hobby.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:11:16 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on December 20, 2019, 02:01:23 amJeez, you just wouldn't stop with the NanoVNA...Well, I guess if it was made by a hobbyist and it's open-source, then it's all fine and we can ignore the massive qty of product that the manufacturer is moving using false advertising.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:15:50 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:26:40 pmThat's the part I hate the most about this situation. They can sell all sorts of stuff here even if it's unsafe and burns your house down and there is absolutely zero repercussions. Meanwhile if someone here designs a high quality product that is safer, they are still not allowed to sell it unless it meets tons of requirements and certifications that are extremely expensive to get. The playing field is not level at all. Governments should be encouraging people to manufacture stuff locally, not discourage it. Either lift the requirements for us, or apply them to foreign sellers too. One or the other, but make sure the playing field is fair for everyone.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:23:19 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 20, 2019, 02:15:50 amI was actually having a discussion with someone about this topic and one of the theories that was being thrown around was that governments don't want to have anything to do with any low-end manufacturing, and only foster high-end stuff, but I don't know what to think about that, because IMO, all high-end manufacturers have to start small, otherwise only already big enterprises can give birth to other, already big enterprises.Could this possibly be the piece we are missing?Edit:For example, the WEEE legislation sets a very firm bar for hobby-level manufacturing in many countries in the EU.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:42:18 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 20, 2019, 02:15:50 amResult could be infinite shipping times for all parcels, including those containing legal & quality products. If you are concerned about those some who buy cheapest low quality appliances w/o warranty from China, then don't. - They are not buyers of quality products anyway. I would not bother about nominees of Darwin's award.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:49:59 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on December 20, 2019, 01:30:22 amHow do I tell if I'm buying from a dropshipper? I have no idea. I don't want to buy from dropshippers because I don't see they add any value. Unless maybe I get the goods faster should I need that. But I'm not sure even that necessarily is a given.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:52:07 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 20, 2019, 02:49:59 amThat's the fun part, you can't tell. If you ask them something, they rely it back and forth.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:54:31 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 20, 2019, 02:11:16 amYou are still not getting it. Thing happens not for no reason, and why it is selling well is not due to the "false advertising" as you want to believe. A hobbyist bought, he was likely someone who was trained and owned few boat-anchor himself. A veteran in the industry, and started his RF career before many of us were born. An influencer in his ham club. He was so impressed, and now he could have one that allow him to climb up his mast in his pocket, then he gave a talk in his club, and the wild fire spreads. This is easily known from some reading on the open forum, but wishing it away as "false advertising" is also another way. If you are not targeting the hobbyist market then you have to compare yours with China gears that is targeting workshop that need calibration certificate.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 03:11:05 am
content: I changed the name of the topic, in the hope that it will stop the tangents.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 03:14:13 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 20, 2019, 02:49:59 amThose that are able to sell to you in English is likely a dropshipper than not. Some Chinese maker do sell direct on aliexpress with help from friend who is slightly better than him in English. Those who do sell on ebay likely has a English forum on google or yahoo, and you need to dig them up. Some you cannot avoid to buy from trader/dropshipper unless you ask friend who can buy direct on Chinese platform like taobao or jd. These Chinese maker strength and value is not in doing English support on English platform. They are craftsmen and would rather not sell to someone who they don't like.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 03:56:09 am
content: Why not send one of the prototype to Dave for evaluation, "if" its good and has great value ?Or reputable forum member here, again, "if" its much better than NanoVNA , its not that hard right ?Ask your parent how the Japanese automobiles industries at early 60s up to 70s, and then they basically wiped out major car manufacturers in the world, starting from 70s up to 90s, and not a secret that most big players in European countries were struggling so hard just to survive, event with great protection by their own government.An exception is for German's automobiles industry that keep thriving until today, learn this lesson from this history instead of pointlessly whining.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 04:15:55 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:01:04 pmはぁ (ha), the same thing happened to what is now the NanoVNA V2 team, which was planning a cheap LF to 200MHz USB based VNA without a display, and the design was already production ready when the Nano came out. Mind you, before the Nano the lowest cost VNA you could get were $200+ and didn't include a display, or some $100+ "kits", so it was clear the game has completely changed.This is what the prototype looked like:https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/message/6864?p=,,,20,0,0,0::relevance,,posterid%3A1988907,20,2,0,51382131We knew there was no option except to seriously up our game, so we worked together nonstop since August 2019 to come up with a design that will beat them at a similar price. This is what we came up with:https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/topic/first_pcb_pictures_of_the_v2/68761814What is your next move?

author: Kawakneurder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 04:28:17 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmFirstly, I don't think that everything that comes from China is garbage. Rigol scopes (and arguably the nanoVNA) are some examples.However to answer your question, I think everyone would agree that equipment being more accessible to more people, is always a good thing. Nowadays you can have quite a good lab, with an amount of money with which you could not even purchase a single oscilloscope 40 years ago. So if a piece of equipment comes out, that previously was unattainable for hobbyists, people get hyped. Whether or not that hype is valid or not, depends on the quality of the product. A lot of these Chinese products of course don't come close to more expensive equipment, but can still do maybe 90% of what a hobbyist might need. In one word, it offers unrivaled price/quality ratio.Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmThis is kind of generic for any free market. Either differentiate, do it cheaper, or do it better, or you will go out of business.In any case, I do not see why it would be necessary to get upset about this, except if you somehow have a business in second hand electronic measurement equipment. Low demand for second hand quality manufacturer equipment would drive down the prices if you intend on buying those anyway.Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmThis is not true. If they do not make good products, people would buy similar products from other companies, because there are so many that essentially produce identical devices. Sure there might be very crap products at lower price points, but then you are essentially complaining that there are different price points for the same product. There are cheap and expensive cars too, you don't expect an ultra cheap car to be as reliable as a more expensive one.Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmIn terms of ethics, this is a valid point. The thing is that most people do not care who designed the original product and if they get money for it. They value a low price higher than that.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 04:57:46 am
content: Quote from: OwO on December 20, 2019, 04:15:55 amSorry to hear that about your project. I have long given up on mine. The price I was aiming for was not well received (between 300 and 450 USD), and I wasn't even sure it's worth making it at that price point. People I asked literally told me that they don't need anything more than the NanoVNA... can't argue with that.I guess my next move is to find something less crowded.Quote from: Kawakneurder on December 20, 2019, 04:28:17 amI don't think that either, and I would never suggest it. Lots of companies play nice and you have to respect them for that. My problem is only with the category of products that sell directly from China and aren't subject to the same rules and regulations, and are specifically made with that in mind (that they will be sold in this regime).I don't make high-end scopes, but maybe if I did, I would have something to comment about Rigol too. My main beef is obviously with products that rain on my own parade.Edit:Had to rephrase this edit a bit. I think that any company that is aiming for presence in the EU/US, will try their best to make compliant products, which translates into a lot of benefits for the end customer.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 08:55:58 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 20, 2019, 12:45:31 amAnd have your design ripped off? Problem is, Chinese aren't idiots willing to slave for Westerner capitalists indefinitely. They will soon be America and have their own China somewhere else and America will be left behind obsolete. Live by globalism, die by globalism.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 20, 2019, 12:45:31 amA period? That's what they told you so you accept it but it certainly isn't ending within anyone's lifetime yet.There are of course another upcoming low cost economies in the making. The economic model of breeding peasants and rendering them obsolete by technology to slave away for foreign libertarians is far from being depleted.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 09:12:59 am
content: And here we go again, another thread West vs China.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 09:27:02 am
content: I don't see how this is about China vs West. This is about new low cost test equipment disrupting the market which I think is long overdue. For years I wondered why test equipment vendors (and other big corporations) get away with charging so high margin and why nobody undercut them (which I saw as easy to do). I still wonder the same thing about parts distributors and why all big 3 tend to have the exact same prices, when I've seen small OEMs get chips at 1/20th the price direct from Xilinx at volumes of a few hundred.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 09:36:46 am
content: Quote from: magic on December 20, 2019, 08:55:58 amQuote from: OwO on December 20, 2019, 09:27:02 amWhen this kind of comments start to pop up (in bold), well it's hard to separate what is a on topic conversation or something that is going to go out of hand fast... Well then I'm sorry if it wasn't the meaning of this, I must have misjudged then.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 09:56:55 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 20, 2019, 04:57:46 amThen if that many people find it good enough for their use it disproves your claim that it's garbageI do agree that the certification requirements in our regions are excessive, I travel a lot and see stuff everywhere that would not meet a single safety standard we have, yet people don't die left and right nor do buildings go on fire all the time.For me a lot of standards are way overkill in terms of safety, but if you think a little they have most likely just been passed "in the name of safety" by local companies more prominently as a way to raise the bar to protect themselves by making it hard for competition to reach it...

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 11:56:40 am
content: I'm quite happy With my trash nano VNA and also happy with my trash 6USD atmega Transistor tester, WIth my Rigols, and Siglents.The only fragile point is the firmware and software, that Chinese simply can't do in a professional way, I really don't understand why they are so bad in this area.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 12:03:35 pm
content: What's the deal? Everything I own is made in China and it all works fine!Some "low quality gear from China" I own that's pretty good:1. Ender 32. NanoVNA3. DS1054Z4. Various STM32/AVR dev boardsIt's a race to the bottom and I rather like having more spending power thanks.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 12:20:27 pm
content: I like my NanoVNA for how cheep it was and what it can do. Already exited for the new 3GHz NanoVNA now that i hear it is in the works.But i do also have a bunch of test equipment that carries badges of HP, Agilent, Keysight, Keithley, Tektronix, etc... But most of this equipment is old used gear that i happened to get a good deal on. I can't afford to buy shiny new top brand gear for my lab, the cost of that would be ridiculous. My spectrum analyzer is a HP 8566B because its a nice SA i happened to find a good price, but i also have a Rigol DP832 PSU because i liked it and it was cheap enough to be a good bang for buck even when brand new.A decent VNA is hard to find for cheep because they seam to be pretty hot stuff on the used market, so i don't have a real boatanchor VNA yet. But the NanoVNA while not offering top performance still performs easily well enough to be useful for most things you would want to do with a VNA, all while costing less than half a tank of fuel for my car. So it provides in my opinion amazing value for money.Yes id prefer having a piece of test equipment with a Keysight badge rather than Rigol, but if the Rigol gets the job done i won't complain. Test equipment is a tool for getting stuff done, not a expensive fashion accessory like the latest Gucci bag (That is mostly expensive just because it carries the logo, not because of build quality anyway)

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 01:28:34 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on December 20, 2019, 09:27:02 amThose prices are "shelf prices" for those who just grab components like in supermarket or for some reason (small volume?) have no chances to get better price. If you are serious about your volume, you can and must speak to Xilinx sales, negotiate. "Big 3" distributor will deliver chips, for price you agreed with manufacturer.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 02:26:16 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmMy bud Flipper had expressed an interested in buying a VNA and was looking at the Siglent. They bought the Nanos based on my recommendation after I had read an article about them.My goal was to help Flipper learn about a VNA before they made a decision on what to buy. At $100 (2 pcs) it was a no brainer. Worst case, we would pitch them. I played with it a bit and for learning the basics it was a very good investment.At some point, I will replace my 1970's VNA and I am sure Flipper will end up getting something. Because of the cost, I will most likely buy something used.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 04:03:05 pm
content: I think it's about the perceived value of a product or the bang for the buck. When a cheap USB logic analyzer clone suits my needs why should I spend much more on a professional one? Before we had the inexpensive T&M devices from China hobbyists had to pay big money for professional stuff, maybe got used gear for a reasonable sum if lucky, or had to look for kits or projects in electronics magazines. Or in other words, there's demand for inexpensive T&M gear. Since the big T&M brands don't care about this market inexpensive Chinese products are very welcome and filling the gap.As one of the two active developers of the Transistortester project I'm happy that any electronics enthusiast can get a tester for just a few bucks helping her/him to repair, upcycle and so on. On the other side it's frustrating to see how most of the tester manufacturers ignore the OSHW character of the project by creating modified firmwares and not releasing the code, or by not mentioning the project. So a lot of users don't know about the OSHW project and have no idea that they can upgrade the firmware.And if you think it's an issue with Chinese manufacturers only, you're wrong. Velleman (Belgian company) sells a Transistortester kit with a 2x16 text display for about 50 bucks. Besides the inflated price they also don't give any hint about the OSHW project.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 05:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 04:50:02 pmIf you can find me a proper VNA for ~$50 that doesn't take up my whole bench I'll buy it today. Until then the NanoVNA is looking pretty good to me, I don't do enough RF stuff to need a "real" instrument, all I really need is the ability to measure passive filters and such.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 05:43:47 pm
content: I think I'm narrowing in on the actual reason. So far, I agree with most of what was posted on the subject, I too would buy a cheap product if it was good enough. However, sweatshop products are sometimes not that. Don't conflate Rigol & Co with them, because they're playing different games. Identifying those good products takes a certain level of skill, and I think that becomes more difficult when we're talking about RF.So far, the disagreements seem to be centered around various misunderstandings and differences in how we evaluate a product.Quote from: james_s on December 20, 2019, 05:14:08 pmFair point, so you only need it for no more than a couple of measurements of passive filters up to 300 MHz? If the answer is yes, then I have absolutely nothing to say against it.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 08:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on December 20, 2019, 09:36:46 amI feel this thread has become a thinly veld China is the root of all evil in the market thread.Ignoring the product aspect (which has been discussed in detail), the other context I get from this thread is China has an unfair advantage because they don't have to build widgets to the same standards and this is therefore creates an unfair market advantage for them. This is ass backwards thinking and shifting blame. China gains a advantage here because local consumers are willing choosing to purchase products outside of their local market and deciding for themselves what (if any) standards they feel need to be meet.It's really a case of everyone else should have to pay for for these standards and play by the rules in my local market except me. If the consumers are willing to pay for the quality and standards China would meet them, they not forcing these products into the local market, far from it it the local consumers doing it to themselves.In terms of labor costs and standards, every country has unseen exploiters making quick profits from people. The labor cost advantage in China has largely gone as their local industry has to complete for people and skill, what they do have is an advantage though scale because of the manufacturing scale means suppliers are also local. BUT, on the whole high quality products from China are still expensive and further more China has to compete with those products again considerable west consumer prejudices against the country and it's people. Emphasis on 'Assembled in the USA' is legal racism which company's are exploiting in their local market.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 09:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 20, 2019, 08:44:10 pmBullshit. For the huge variety of products we are not given a choice anymore, ALL of it is produced in China. You cant choose.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 09:57:20 pm
content: You have to go knock on doors closer to home to complain about that problem...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 10:17:38 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 20, 2019, 09:57:20 pmNope, it's a worldwide issue and solely based on corporate greed.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 11:00:59 pm
content: That's exactly what I mean. Closer to home as in the countries where the products are retailed not manufactured.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 11:26:47 pm
content: We can thank the west for bringing the Asians up to speed firstly and how they have the skills and knowledge to continue to push the boundary's of performance vs price.Still I'm with the OP, if a datasheet spec says something it needs be met or we can rightly call it junk.Caveat emptor !

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:02:15 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 20, 2019, 09:56:19 pmYeah I wish there was choice to buy stuff made in Canada. I would always buy that first even if it's more expensive.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:07:00 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 20, 2019, 11:26:47 pmThat's my biggest gripe about the low cost gear, not so much that the performance is lacking for the price, but the fact that the performance doesn't match the claimed spec. People don't (or shouldn't) expect high performance from low end gear but it's perfectly reasonable to expect it to perform as advertised.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:08:14 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 20, 2019, 09:56:19 pmWe had a choice, we made that choice years ago and now we are living with the consequences of that choice. The average consumer is ill informed and shops purely based on price. The cheapest junk has always been the top sellers.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:13:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 21, 2019, 12:07:00 amI hate that crap too, and it makes it even harder to compete because if you want to make a competing product not only do you need to try to make it cheaper but you need to try to make it the same or better spec. Meanwhile they cheated by lying about the spec. Power related stuff like inverters is the worse for that.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:33:18 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 21, 2019, 12:13:35 amThe problem is that often that is very quickly revealed, and what do consumers do? They buy the widget any way. A good examples were Uni-T meters advertising Cat IV ratings, it was pretty obvious they did not meet the spec, but not only did their meters continue to sell but the masses came out and defended the meter.Bottom line, the consumer is purchasing based on price almost exclusively, they then insistently complain it's low quality, it's robbing jobs from the local market, it did not meet the spec etc. All perfectly obvious and well known before the decision to BUY. In most cases in the consumer market there is need (which these products satisfy) and dick waving (which the spec sheet satisfies). This who need equipment that meet actual specs are not being blindsided by this, to the contra we find it really difficult to purchase locally because the manufactures, suppliers (and retailers) there once were are gone. Joe decided long ago not to support the local market. Unfortunately, Joe was also too short sighted to realize he was also sending his job overseas along with the skill investment companies made.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:34:55 am
content: I don't know if your product is really better, you can loose at the end if your competitor is actually not as good but is beating you in the false advertising. This may happen to finance product. For actual devices, false advertising kills their brand almost immediately in the era of internet where information travels so fast.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:42:51 am
content: " The problem is that often that is very quickly revealed, and what do consumers do? They buy the widget any way. A good examples were Uni-T meters advertising Cat IV ratings, it was pretty obvious they did not meet the spec, but not only did their meters continue to sell but the masses came out and defended the meter.Bottom line, the consumer is purchasing based on price almost exclusively, they then insistently complain it's low quality, it's robbing jobs from the local market, it did not meet the spec etc. "I think consumer is much smarter than we think. Most of these spec or regulatory requirement are not affecting them, and not paying for those "spec" is what they have chosen. For spec that really affect them, they shall react immediately like the false capacity claimed by some battery makers.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:46:51 am
content: There is an analogy in supermarkets.Hipsters complain that they exploit farmers and screw manufacturers. But they give people what they want at rewardingly low prices. The average person can eat better at a supermarket today, for less, than anywhere else at any other time in history (of course you have to read the ingredients and compare prices per unit mass/volume).The enemies of supermarkets would go back to the "old days", replace them with grocers, delicatessens, farmers' markets, etc.,with less convenience and a far higher price. Often, the groups pushing this regressive agenda are motivated by ideology or self-interest rather than by facts and hard data.Today, young Bruno in Brazil or Tiras in Tunisia can save up to buy an oscilloscope, VNA, etc. which some idealists would dismiss as "a piece of crap", but which will let them see and measure things they would otherwiseneverbe able to. Andthisis the world I want to live in.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 12:58:54 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on December 21, 2019, 12:42:51 amThat's probably true, but in the case of RF gear, I think this is a little different, because the consumers are less informed then they think they are. I would say that it's almost the same as selling garbage electronics to regular joe.IMO, if you don't buy from a reputable seller (and there are actually many small-time sellers that qualify), you're going to get garbage, almost invariably.Edit:Maybe this is just my skewed POV, and maybe those things that I do buy, thinking that I know what I'm doing, are also garbage to a more knowledgeable customer.Quote from: I wanted a rude username on December 21, 2019, 12:46:51 amThat is not true. I have no vested interest in the vegetable business, but I would still pay a little more and eat something less often, knowing that when I do eat it, it's healthy and it wasn't grown on a shelf with substances being injected directly in it.A friend of mine worked on an apple (or cherry, can't remember) plant in Italy and told me his job was to drill fist size holes in trees and put fertilizer straight in. I think there is some merit to stepping back a little and thinking about weather this is what we want or not.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 01:00:01 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on December 21, 2019, 12:42:51 amThat just emphasis my point, they not purchasing believing the spec sheet, they purchasing on price.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 01:06:05 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 21, 2019, 01:00:01 amYes, you are right. In addition, what they want is fulfilled. Not the additional claims or disclaimers, who got time for that ?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 01:08:42 am
content: I guess a lot of people here want this great golden era to come back, where everything were made, manufactured domestically.An example just for simple very popular Simpson 260 multimeter, forget about more advanced tools like oscilloscope or even VNA.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 01:11:06 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on December 21, 2019, 12:46:51 amIt's tangential, the point I'm making is that the decision to purchase is price based not a misleading spec sheet. While I don't agree in principal on falsification I don't think this is a major factor in harming the local market.Also, I'm not convinced 'piece of crap' is justified in most cases. For the price paid it's fair quality and often better. If I pay for a cheap plastic case and that's what I receive why is this crap? That meets my requirements. Sure I would like the 1000x more expensive case but I did not pay for it (I could have but I did not). If on the other hand I pay for the premium case and I revive a cheap enclosure, yea I received crap.The problem is caused by consumers who purchase the lowest cost widget and whine that it's crap compared to the 1000x more expensive product.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 01:19:14 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 21, 2019, 01:11:06 amQuote from: blacksheeplogic on December 21, 2019, 01:11:06 amYou are arguing against something that sits at the basis of our society: one's word.If a seller tells you he's going to sell you the 1000x more expensive case, for the price of the cheap one, and you're getting the cheap one, you didn't get a good deal, you were conned.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 01:34:38 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 20, 2019, 08:44:10 pmYes, yes. Proud to live in a racist country eating racist food.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 02:16:34 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 21, 2019, 01:34:38 amIf you tell what product your company make, people can make you even more proud by letting only the Buds buy them.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 03:06:00 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 21, 2019, 01:19:14 amBut they are not, they selling the $50 widget you compared to a 10K$ widget and comparing it's got a crappy case. I'm saying it's acceptable based on the price paid.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 03:10:00 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 21, 2019, 01:08:42 amHonestly I don't think it would be THAT bad. You would pay more for higher quality (at least I would hope they would make it higher quality!) but no matter what they would still have to price it at a price point that people will buy it. I would be willing to pay more either way *IF* it's higher quality, has better support, and if we had right to repair bill set in stone. Basically, I would not mind if the cost of consumer items like tools and toys went up say 2-3x, BUT that they were built with essentially life time ownership in mind. When you look at how much money you spend on everything, items are actually a small part of that. Its costs of living such as bills and taxes that take up most of your pay cheque.Right now companies save a lot by outsourcing manufacturing to China, they are NOT passing those savings on to the consumer. Just look at how expensive an Apple product is.If some kind of law was passed where manufacturing has to be done locally immediately, I could see the prices of everything skyrocket, but it would stabilize. I don't think they would go as low as they are now, but with all these new jobs created it would overall be better for the economy. More tax payers and less people on social services could even mean that taxes could come down which is one of the largest costs of living so at the end you would have more money. (at least in theory... we all know governments would never actually lower taxes).That said there is nothing wrong with the availability of really cheap low quality stuff but it would be nice if we still had access to the higher quality stuff too.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 03:17:22 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 21, 2019, 03:10:00 amI think what would happen is that everyone would cheer, clap, dance, and pat themselves on the back, talk about how they were leading the way etc. Then, they would hop on the internet buying cheap widgets as they currently do shipped to their door from the international markets.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 03:26:24 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on December 21, 2019, 12:46:51 amI don't think we agree that the supermarkets are giving customers the lowest possible price. Just because they tell you that on the TV doesn't mean it's true.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 04:44:35 am
content: I ... didn't say they do?

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 05:29:22 am
content: QuoteThis is a political question about one nation, Chinese. Their history is based on one success story of discovery of mass production (First emperor and his factories with low cost iron arrow heads). Mass production has a value, that certain recipies have some cost effect when being scaled. That is their core belief. A little different from say, Japanese belief, that certain long standing focus of a singular person is an answer to any problem. The western values are not much different, the belief is that hard work (read, high cost) is worth an effort, because there is a project of building of heaven on earth. Each of three is mild madness, on which the economies stand.The answer is in understanding of transferability of recipies, justification of effort and how the society is proving the goals being reached.China is wrong thinking that recipies are transferrable as information entity. The real recipies are infinite. They are never are separatable from environment where an artifacts are made. Cost is not everything. Crap is crap.Japanese are wrong thinking, that focus is worthy. Because the practitioner will eventually die of old age. So the art will be lost.West is has advantage being mad about effort. So no one proved that heaven on earth project has failed. That's why we have exorbitant prices on parts. Because people are ready to pay for it. To make things happen in right way, no matter what.So to answer the quoted question. Because so many of the people, do not realize how weak most of ideologies really are.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 06:34:24 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 21, 2019, 03:10:00 amYeah, Trumps dream ^.Instead tariffs are implemented to dissuade buyers from buying imported goods and importers margins get cut to absorb tariffs such is the inter-brand marketplace competition. Buyers win, gubbermints win with increased tariff revenue to spend on their hobby horses.Alternatively, multi-national corporates raise their middle finger to producing in a country and take their production facilities elsewhere where they will be welcomed with open arms for the new employment opportunities they offer.There is no simple solution.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 06:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 21, 2019, 06:34:24 amEach person/family/business only has so much disposable income. If the prices of some goods go up (e.g. due to tariffs), what do they do?If they HAVE to have it, they will pay more (and have to buy less of something else to make up for it, which is damaging to the rest of the economy). If they don't HAVE to have it, they might buy something else instead, something that makes them equally happy. Which is not damaging to the economy, but affects those that LIKE the tariffed products disproportionately to those who don't care.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 07:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on December 21, 2019, 12:42:51 amThe thing is, it costs nothing to not lie about the specs. If I buy a "100MHz" oscilloscope and find out it's only capable of 50MHz I'm going to be upset that I was lied to, even if the price is quite reasonable for a 50MHz scope. I might still buy it if it will meet my needs and the price is fair and there is no reasonable alternative but I'm still not going to be happy. Maybe lying about specs really does boost sales in China, I fully admit I know virtually nothing about Chinese culture and mindset but I don't think it does them any favors in the west. I'm hopeful that their business culture eventually shifts as they start to realize this.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 07:22:28 pm
content: I think you put way too much importance on something everyone seriously interested knows is not to be relied on.It's common knowledge that specs on cheap Chinese stuff are BS, and I don't know anyone who buys such stuff based on them. They ignore them, go watch a few reviews, and decide based on that. The specs just provide for a good laugh based on how wrong they were, and that's about it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 08:22:15 pm
content: I don't buy based on specs because I know the specs are usually pure BS. That doesn't make me any happier about it, if I had the choice between two identical devices, one with bogus specs and one that was honest, I'd buy the honest one every time even if it cost 10% more.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 08:52:40 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 21, 2019, 08:22:15 pmI don't disagree with you that the behavior of lying on spec sheets is bad and we know the reality. However, all-most all consumers based on my observed behavior will purchase the 10% cheaper version.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 11:30:03 pm
content: And usually the honest one doesn't cost 10% more, but 200% more...Not saying it's OK either, just that's how it is and since none of us is going to change it that we just have to be aware and deal with it.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 11:39:59 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 21, 2019, 08:22:15 pmWhat are you talking about? - eBay/Ali "products" designed by hobbyist in best case? Everything is fine with specs of lab grade equipment from "big names" likeHPKeysight, R&S, Anristu and so on.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 12:13:14 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 19, 2019, 05:49:58 pmHerd not heard.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 12:39:14 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on December 21, 2019, 11:30:03 pmDelivering good specs and standing by them costs money and time. Lying about having good specs and not standing by your product if it fails to meet them is free.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 02:16:56 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 22, 2019, 12:39:14 amDelivering modest specs and not lying about them doesn't cost anything more than delivering the same modest specs and lying about them being much better than they are. Nobody is saying that cheap gear should perform like name brand stuff that costs orders of magnitude more, I just expect specs to be reasonably honest.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 02:27:01 am
content: Quote from: ogden on December 21, 2019, 11:39:59 pmI have no idea what you're getting at.I don't care who it's designed by or for or how much it costs, specs should not be deliberately exaggerated. If an instrument claims 100MHz bandwidth and it only does 90 before performance degrades below reasonable levels that's one thing, but if it can't even manage 20MHz that's just flat out lying and deception. If a power supply is rated to deliver 10A but blows up if you draw more than 3A that is lying and there's no excuse for it. Same with batteries that claim 5,000mAh but can't manage 1,200, it's flat out fraud. Cheap isn't a license to pull numbers out of your ass. If you're going to claim a spec, at least make it close to reality.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 05:09:48 am
content: Whether sellers lie about specs is mostly dependent on the platform. Not sure about oscilloscopes but ebay and aliexpress are filled with bloated spec lithium cells, while taobao is much more strict and listings for 18650s with incorrect labels usually even tell you that the indicated capacity is not the real capacity.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 05:59:48 am
content: It's stupid that the cells are labeled with bogus capacities in the first place. What purpose does it serve other than an attempt to defraud?

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 06:16:55 am
content: Blame the OEM for that one. The *fire brands all have a policy of labeling capacity * X, where X depends on brand, explains one particular taobao listing. It's against terms to lie in a product listing, but beware that lying through omission is still seen as "fair game". If a listing doesn't state capacity, but only has a picture of the 18650 with a (false) label, arguably the seller didn't defraud you because they sold you a genuine *fire cell, but you didn't do enough research to know that that brand always overstates capacity.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 08:25:05 am
content: Quote from: ogden on December 21, 2019, 11:39:59 pmThe topic is cheap Chinese tools, so obviously that's what we're talking about.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 08:38:07 am
content: As its too often seeing the blame that China is evil and culprits for all your problems, why don't start campaign like electing your political representative, that promise once elected will start border control to ban all Chinese import, starting like from your spoon, your underpant and etc, up to gadgets like VNA, and demand everything must be manufactured locally or within region or allies.Or its just a matter of convenient just put blame and escape-goating everything on Chinese ?

author: jklasdf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 09:05:22 am
content: There are other VNA projects that were significantly more expensive than the nanoVNA, but still successful. For instance the xaVNA, seehttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1759352588/xavna-a-full-featured-low-cost-two-port-vnaandhttps://xaxaxa-dev.com/xavna.cppspThis was a >$200 USD instrument that was posted here on eevblog and successfully funded on kickstarter, and units shipped. Jadew's product is a bit more of a stretch though, since basically the only people that would be interested are those that already own a "real" spectrum analyzer and actually need better scalar network analysis performance and (more importantly) are willing to pay for it. Other people have already commented on this, but it's no surprise that the market for "real" (i.e. much more expensive) test equipment is smaller. Buying a fixable used vector network analyzer for $200 is fairly rare, I don't think many people would actually be able to just go out and find one for that cheap right now.Overall, although jadew has some points (i.e. the post isn't as bad say treez), it would've been nice to know about the tracking generator project in the first post...I can't honestly make myself believe this question was asked in good faith.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 09:18:06 am
content: Quote from: jklasdf on December 22, 2019, 09:05:22 amI can.When a product is claimed to be suitable to 1.5 GHz usage then the dozens of buyers of them here on EEVblog report they are quite accurate to 300 MHz but not beyond it would only seem fair that it was instead advertised as suitable for 300 MHz usage.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 09:44:50 am
content: Yes, the NanoVNA was originally intended as a 200MHz unit (si5351 is only specified to 200MHz, 300MHz is overclocking and some units can't go that high). I think it's very unlikely that aliexpress and taobao will do anything about it though because the units do actually reach 900MHz, just with bad accuracy that is not apparent with basic testing. I've mentioned the harmonic mode linearity issues before on the nanovna-users group, but as I have obvious vested interest in the GHz space it'll be up to other people to bring more attention to this issue.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 12:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2019, 02:27:01 amThat's your problem that you don't care who's designed, buy cheap shit and then complain that specs are exaggerated. I am saying that big brands do not exaggregate specs because instruments are subject to calibration, in 3rd party labs. If you know what's calibration you will understand that cheating with specs in such case is dumb idea.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 12:43:19 pm
content: Some of the expensive shit has exaggerated specifications too so that point is moot.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 01:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 22, 2019, 12:43:19 pmBe specific. Otherwise it's just

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 01:11:54 pm
content: Take any Dyson product.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 01:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2019, 02:27:01 amLOL. That is ridiculous to complain that Average Joe in his garage in China manufacture fake batteries with fake capacity numbers.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 01:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 22, 2019, 01:11:54 pmLOL. Serious?IMHO Dyson is home stuff manufacturer and it does not manufacture instruments that are subject to calibration, in 3rd party labs. If I am mistaken, please name Dyson oscilloscope, multimeter or spectrum analyzer with exaggregated specs..

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 02:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 22, 2019, 01:20:55 pmSince when is the topic only about T&M equipment? Valid for anything with overstated specs...

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 02:30:59 pm
content: Quote from: jklasdf on December 22, 2019, 09:05:22 amI think I made it pretty clear from the original post that I'm directly affected by this, as proven by the following quote (from the opening post):Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmThe TG was just one of the examples I could have given, so it's not the only product I canceled because of unfair competition of this type.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 03:03:50 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on December 22, 2019, 02:08:43 pmThread is Ferrari performance parts manufacturer crying that bicycle manufacturers from china put him out of business. BTW bd139 replied to my post where I say following:Quote from: ogden on December 22, 2019, 12:41:35 pm

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 03:26:34 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 22, 2019, 12:39:14 amIt's free until it puts you out of business. Which, for almost any western company, is what eventually happens if you do this.The problem when buying cheap products from China that don't meet their rated specs is that 1/ either the product was so cheap that you won't even bother calling the company on it (because your time to do this will cost you more than the product itself), or 2/ if you do, the company is likely to not even answer. Either way, given the often huge market those companies address, and the difference in laws, angry foreign customers are very unlikely to harm them in any significant way. This is a very significant difference in how business works for them compared to most western companies, and this is the real problem here.Of course as said above, not all cheap products from China are crap, so we're talking about products that don't meet their advertised specs only.Another obvious point is that in most cases, as long as you're a decent engineer, it's possible to at least reasonably "guess" that what is advertised can't be true, based on price, description, company's profile, etc. Even chinese companies can't seriously sell a given product under a certain price tag, at some point it just doesn't add up, and knowledge about the electronics market should help you with this. If you're fooling yourself, it's YOUR problem.Now for the more general question of why people tend to go for the cheapest they can find these days, putting cost over almost anything else, the answer seems pretty obvious. It's either out of limited means, or greed.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 07:07:28 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 22, 2019, 01:14:58 pmAre you on drugs or are you having difficulty comprehending English? What are you even talking about and how did you get that from what I said?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 07:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 22, 2019, 08:38:07 amChina is not the problem, lots of good stuff comes from China. The problem is low end stuff purchased directly, nearly all of which comes from companies based in China. When people complain about "Chinese junk" they are referring to a specific category of goods, not everything made in the entire country. Unfortunately some people are extremely pedantic and unable to infer this without having it laid out in explicit detail.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 07:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 22, 2019, 12:41:35 pmAgain you have completely failed to comprehend what I was saying, you are going off about something else entirely.Is this really so difficult to grasp? Blatant lying about specs = bad. Can you really not understand that there is a large area between high end expensive gear with guaranteed specs verified in 3rd party labs and low end gear with specs that are grossly exaggerated?Maybe another example will help you grasp this? Let's say there are 3 power supplies. One comes from a reputable brand like Agilent, is rated to produce 30V at up to 5A continuous and comes with detailed specs on noise, regulation, etc. The performance is excellent, the specs are complete and fully trustworthy and the price is high.Now a reasonable low cost power supply, also rated at 30V 5A, it doesn't include much in the way of other specs and probably doesn't perform as well but simple tests verify that it can produce 30V and deliver 5A into a load without blowing up. Maybe the regulation isn't as good, maybe the output is noisier, maybe it can't quite reach 30V into the full rated load but it's close, maybe you see a bit of variation from one unit to another but it works reasonably well, it's acceptable for the price. It's an inexpensive economy device and doesn't claim not to be but it can on the most basic level do what it says it will do.Now the third option, the low cost device with fake specs, say it's the same internally as the second PSU but this one proudly proclaims it can deliver 0-50V at 10A continuous. These specs are obviously complete BS, the true performance is not even close. The specs are a lie, it is fraud, there is no way to tweak it to perform anywhere close to the claims. This is what I'm complaining about. The cost to produce example 2 and example 3 is identical, the hardware is the same but if I buy example 2 I feel I got what I paid for, if I buy example 3 I feel cheated. Perhaps the issue is the manufactures of stuff with fake specs like you do not understand this very important difference.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 07:34:31 pm
content: Seeing as Ogden wanted examples, the keysight E36xx supplies suffered overshoot and oscillation problems. The newer ones such as the U8001A latch up into CC mode and don’t recover. Those are specification violations.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 09:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2019, 07:28:29 pmCan't you comprehend that deception about product quality and specifications exist since invention of trade and it will be so forever. Whining that there is fraud in shady places where anybody can sell anything is just laughable. If today you are unable to find consumer reviews or comprehend how it is so that obscure brand can manufacture 10x better batteries for 2x lower price compared to leading chemical companies, then learn it hard way

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:02:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2019, 07:28:29 pmYes I get that. There are small battery-powered portable pocket radios that claim 1500W PMPO output power as well. Such products exist. How do you suggest to "fix it"?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 10:26:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 22, 2019, 07:07:28 pmNo need for insults if you are out of arguments. In case you did not know, everybody can roll-out his own battery brand (or fake existing one) by buying customized shrink sleeves and packaging. It does not cost so much. Just search "Printed PVC Shrink Sleeve Label for Battery". That is what I was talking about. When you buy obscure batteries that are "not mainstream" - you have to be careful. I am sorry that you did not know that.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 11:32:23 pm
content: As an insight I just bought a laptop form the 3rd biggest PC manufacturer, which is a Western company. On my model they advertise "up to 10h22 battery life with productivity apps, up to 7h24 watching Netflix".The laptop has a 51Wh battery. That means for 10h22 the machine should not be using more than 4.9Waverage. By doing a fresh Windows install, all updates and drivers up, manufactuer tool set to max energy savings, Windows set to max energy savings, GPU control panel with all energy saving features enabled, backlight at minimum, WiFi off and no app running bar the monitoring one telling me the power usage akaabsolutely nothing being done in the lowest possible energy consumption stateI never see it use less than 5.5W. Do the slightest thing and it bumps to >10W. In practice, even trying to save as much as you can if you're actually doing something with the thing and not let it sit on a table it's absolutely impossible to get more than 3.5-4h battery life. If you push it a bit you're at 1h max.It's not just the Chinese. If I search for my model the web is full of people who have been complaining about it for a couple of months since the model was launched, yet the marketing crap is still the same on the site. Support has been playing the usual game of "trying to do something for you" by sending replacement batteries to people who complained when it is obviously not going to fix anything sincethe numbers just can not check out.Several years ago I had another laptop by the 2nd biggest PC manufacturer - if you were to use it to its full potential on battery it would just shut off on you. Same thing, went through support, "oh we'll send you another battery", did the exact same thing, I took out my PSUs and meters and it only took 10 minutes to see that at full CPU+GPU load the laptop was drawing 6.8A, and the overcurrent protection in the battery trips at 6.5A. The freaking morons likely reused a battery design they already had on a new machine, and nobody in the engineering, testing, QA, QC,... was able to see that it just wasn't suitableAgain we're talking about full price, Western design premium products here, not Chinese crap. And as a consumer you have no more recourse unless you want to spend a month on it.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 01:15:28 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 22, 2019, 09:18:06 amI think you need to join the nanoVNA forum to be better informed. There are many many RF nerds there. The biggest complaint is not that they were cheated, it is the screen is too small. This is not a so-called "product", it was designed and made by Ham, and for Ham.The plot, traces and graph are there for all to see. Almost everything about the nanoVNA is open sourced.The OP product does not stand a chance if it is targeting headon with nanoVNA as it shall be fighting an army of PHD, active and retired university professors, and at least one Nobel Laureate there. These are the happy nuts there. The discussion there is not complaining about the shortcomings, but is in overcoming the shortcomings. There is no false advertising by nanoVNA, maybe some dropshippers may mislabel their sale. I hope you guys see the pattern and the value of what the cheap gears from China can enable, and has enabled.There is a party doing the misinformation, it is not the nanoVNA chaps.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 04:40:22 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on December 23, 2019, 01:15:28 amReally ? Are the several threads about them here not sufficient to get a good feeling if a product meets its claims or not ?QuoteRandomly selected link from Aliexpress:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000378025298.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.3aad4d7fDDDswD&algo_pvid=660e008c-3c5e-41a1-ad13-4452dfb46536&algo_expid=660e008c-3c5e-41a1-ad13-4452dfb46536-2&btsid=50cc38ce-7e91-4f84-bd5e-fe4a6ac32e27&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_9,searchweb201603_53And yet you must also not have read the post from OwO just yesterday confirming nanoVNA is at best a 300 MHz device.And just in case you weren't aware he's been involved in its development.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 04:59:03 am
content: and what part of the details they gave are wrong? and if you are really someone who wants to buy, even at USD50, would you not look for more information on the internet for the various frequency points that were highlighted? and also reviews from users?I do not think OWO was involved the development of nanoVNA that are selling now. OWO correct me if I am wrong. He is being subcontracted to make a version to compete with probably the newer versions of nanoVNA. I have no conflict of interest at all. Just a happy nut that bought two sets, and eagering waiting for the next version with higher frequency and bigger screen.

author: jklasdf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 06:13:41 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 22, 2019, 02:30:59 pmNowhere in the original post is your tracking generator project mentioned. The "I've been bit by it several times already" thing could refer to anything: a multimeter that you bought that's certified as IEC CAT VIII++ 10000V rated but clearly isn't, dodgy power cables you bought with too thin wiring, etc. None of these things are great, and if that was all that your original post was about, I don't think you'd have too many disagreements here.The only thing that might allude to your tracking generator project is the part about other sellers supposedly trying to attack your servers, which I glanced over originally and I don't think many people have commented on so far, but let me be the first to say: step back for a minute and think about this a bit. The nanoVNA is in a completely different market than yours, and it's doubtful any reseller is even aware of your project or cares. The market overlap of someone looking for a clean $300-400 tracking generator to go with a much-more-expensive, lab-grade spectrum analyzer is simply non-existent for the $40 nanoVNA. The nanoVNA is in the same market as the extremely cheap "antenna analyzers" and SWR meters so popular with hams. I don't doubt some people may have told you that they wouldn't consider your project because of the nanoVNA, but these people probably never actually should've been looking at your project in the first place and likely should've been looking in a completely different market than yours. The likelihood that some nanoVNA reseller was aware of your project, saw it as a threat, and then tried to attack your server is pretty small. Opportunistic drive-by attacks on any potentially unsecured server are a lot more common than most people would expect.And now more about the nanoVNA part of your post. (You may claim otherwise, but it's going to be hard to convince me that your original post wasn't a sob story about how the "unfair" nanoVNA ruined your tracking generator project. When I said you do have some points, I mean I don't like blatantly mis-advertised products like IEC CAT VIII++ 10000V or misrated batteries either. I don't think the nanoVNA falls under that category of products though, sorry.) Let's take a look at the history of the nanoVNA and various advertisements (by resellers).The original nanoVNA was designed by Edy555, for "the category of hobbies" and with "no guarantee of performance" according to the google translation from japanese ofhttps://ttrf.tk/kit/nanovna/Even the current official githubhttps://github.com/ttrftech/NanoVNAsays very little about the performance of the nanoVNA, although the software has been updated to also use harmonics to allow frequencies above 300MHz. (I do agree with many previous posts that it's not great that a lot of resellers don't advertise/follow the open source spirit of this projects and similar projects like the AVR transistor tester.) The hugen version of the nanoVNA (https://github.com/hugen79/NanoVNA-H) was the first to use harmonics to measure above 300MHz, but fairly clearly states that it uses "the odd harmonic extension of si5351 to support the measurement frequency up to 900MHz", and also complains about "bad clones". I think this is also the original source of the (not-very-well-specified) 70dB "dynamic" (whatever that means) for 50K-300MHz claim, 50dB of "dynamics" for 300-600MHz, and 40dB of "dynamics" for 600-900MHz.Now let's take a look at some of the text of various resellers:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000378025298.htmlfrom tautech from aliexpressFrom my 1st two google results:https://www.amazon.com/50KHz-900MHz-Vector-Network-Analyzer-Antenna/dp/B07WJ3FJD9/from amazonhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Nanovna-50KHz-900MHz-Vector-Network-Analyzer-VNA-VHF-UV-UHF-HF-Antenna-Analyzer-/362727846597from eBay.The aliexpress listing says that it uses "the odd-order harmonic expansion of si5351 to support the measurement frequency of 900MHz", almost a direct copy from the hugen github text. The amazon listing has the exact same text. The eBay listing (which also has pictures of scantily-clad pin-up girls -- very relevant to vector network analysis) says nothing about using harmonics for higher frequencies, although does refer to them as "extended" and needing "extended firmware".All of the listings mention using an si5351 as the signal source. None of the listings mention that the output is a square wave, that the output is not as clean as shown herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/why-do-so-many-people-here-go-nuts-over-garbage-gear-from-china/?action=dlattach;attach=892652;image,or that jadew's tracking generator + lab grade spectrum analyzer would give much better performance if you could actually purchase it.You could claim that not stating that the output is a square wave is a lie of omission (and you wouldn't be wrong), but compared to IEC CAT VIII++ 10000V multimeters or misrated batteries, this is really more of a yawn for me, and not the blatantly "unfair" competition that jadew claims. (RF instruments are notoriously underspecified anyways with specifications that don't tell the whole story, and this includes top lab-grade instruments also.)The elephant in the room is this: for someone with complete knowledge of the nanoVNA's shortcomings, would the nanoVNA's existence still prevent someone from being interested in jadew's product or is it only with its "unfair" advertising that the nanoVNA appears as "competition"? I would argue that the two products were never competing with each other in the first place.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 06:25:17 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 23, 2019, 01:42:39 amI'm also very happy with my Dyson vacuums, I have one conventional upright and one cordless one. The normal retail price is a bit crazy but I bought mine on sale and have been very happy with them, they're the only bagless vacuums I've ever used that work worth a crap.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 06:40:00 am
content: @blueskull have you moved yet?

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 08:00:58 am
content: Quote from: jklasdf on December 23, 2019, 06:13:41 amI'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've only just glanced over everything, and because of that you haven't understood yet that the TG is NOT the only project of mine that was affected by this. Was I supposed to list them all? I didn't even want to mention that one.The question I raised stands on its own, so there was no need to reveal that I'm hindered by this in any way, BUT I DID IT ANYWAY. The fact that you failed to get that from the context, is on you, not on me, so please stop insinuating that I may have some alteria motives. I've made no secret of my dislike for these products, or that they're interfering with my business.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 09:12:05 am
content: Quote from: jadew on December 23, 2019, 08:00:58 amYes, because as mentioned in the case of the TG there is nothing to suggest any actual link between the nanoVNA example you brought and you thinking the TG not to be viable, so now we think it might be the same for the other cases.Quote from: jadew on December 23, 2019, 08:00:58 amIt was totally obvious from the first post that the rant wasn't innocuous and was posted because you felt directly concerned.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 09:43:15 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on December 23, 2019, 09:12:05 amI already mentioned that I ran a poll and did my homework. I also mentioned that this was not about the TG (project on which I have given up already), but about whatever future projects I may have. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the premise is wrong, and I'd like to know which part of the causality chain is tripping you off.Quote from: Kilrah on December 23, 2019, 09:12:05 amThat is exactly my point. I never tried to hide that, which is what that user was suggesting.Edit:For those just dropping in, the premise was that differences in how law is applied creates an uneven playing field, which favors shady practices for sellers outside of the local market, which in turn creates unfair competition for local manufacturers and sellers, because they have to compete against fake specifications.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 03:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pmBecause You can`t get low quality gear from Antarctica. Yep

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 01:51:48 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on December 23, 2019, 03:05:03 pmlow quality gear in Antarctica sounds like a BAD IDEA.

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 11:04:39 am
content: Did you see the advert for dyson vacume cleaners,claiming they were cutting there carbon footprint by not using carbon brushes,what a load of bollox!,made me want to puke!!!,wonder how many idiots fell for it?? beggers belife.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 11:08:51 am
content: James Dyson is a cunt so that doesn't surprise me.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 11:12:17 am
content: Excuse me,SirJames Dyson.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 11:23:42 am
content: Sir cunt

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 01:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 23, 2020, 11:23:42 amHow did "cunt" end up being an insult in Britain? - Usually, they are quite pleasant contraptions...

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 12:43:28 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 23, 2020, 01:15:23 pmCunts are useful. Except cunts as big as him!

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 01:00:22 am
content: It's a trace price/quality/usage.I'm pretty ok if certain things are not great quality because the price is quite low and the purpose and usage doesn't require things to be any better.Though, after 2. WW, Germany had similar problem, "Made in Germany" was seen as poor, mas production etc. And in a decade or so, they changed the perception. Now we all know what we expect from "Made in Germany"It's maybe taking bit more time but Made in China doesn't mean the same as it used to be 15 years ago.Every day there is less and less common usage products better in USA/Germany/EU/Japan than in China.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 11:32:56 am
content: "Made in Germany" is a British label.Please seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 02:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: madires on January 24, 2020, 11:32:56 amThat backfired very badly...