EEVblog #1269 - Solar Roadways SR4 DATA Hilarity! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 03:52:16 am
content: We have data from the new Solar Roadways SR4 installation, and it ain't pretty!A comparison with a nearby installation of existing rooftop solar, and how much energy does it take to melt snow?Data from SR4:https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=1e085701-ccb3-4ce5-b107-86e3b5e831dd&locale=en_USArticle:https://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20191130/solar_roadways_unveils_new_panels

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 12:04:43 pm
content: In the video you comment on the pinpoint melted patches. There is something weird going on there.In the The Demise Of Solar Roadways thread you posted a screenshot from Dec 1, where the small patches are visible. I checked live feed some twelve hours later, and there was the same pattern, same size. That would imply the heaters were either not turned on, are physically very small, or the melted patches are not melted by the heaters, but rather by something else (ie. the LED drivers).In any case, wouldn't this lead to some potentially harmful thermal gradient?

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 06:26:11 pm
content: Ah yes, the gift of hilarity that keeps on giving!With the current political climate here (no pun intended), I think this debacle will continue to get funding, just to pleasure the public to make it seem the president's opposition is doing such a great job at saving the planet (and thus win votes in 2020 to stay in office).I do look forward to an actual road way for this thing, just to see the fun of this thing really get torn up. Should be some fun.Perhaps a poll to see how long it will it take until structural failure, perhaps?

author: jhpadjustable
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 09:52:07 pm
content: Maybe they're on to something here, in this quiet segue to Solar Freakin' Walkways.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 11:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on December 04, 2019, 12:04:43 pmYes, it did seem to take some time. Interesting that you note 12 hours timestamps with no change.I wonder if/how the heaters are controlled?

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 01:44:31 am
content: Solar frekking roadways stupidity just goes on and on and on.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 01:48:16 am
content: Someone posted on Youtube that we should crowd fund a traditional panel system and offer it to the council for free to mount on top of the dunny block next to Solar Roadways.The direct power output comparison would be hilarious!

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 02:25:14 am
content: Quote from: MT on December 05, 2019, 01:44:31 amThe discussion about it that goes on and on too. Does anyone really care anymore?At least SR seem to be taking what they learn from the trial and using it to make improvements.I see from their Twitter they were in Melbourne, Australia recently. Pity we couldn't have heard from them first hand.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 05:23:14 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 05, 2019, 02:25:14 amWhat no one cares about is your trolling.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 07:33:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2019, 05:23:14 amThe discussion does seem to go on far beyond what a marginally useful product like solar roadways would seem to merit. You can infer something from the number of forum members that show even the slightest interest.It is a valid question that might show whether continuing to rant about it is of wide interest to the majority of forum members. If you choose not rush to judgement and assert I am trolling (i'm not) you might have been able to see if anyone said they really wanted the blog to be geared more toward this sort of tabloid pulp type video. Content that is of a highly disposable nature.It is of no interest to me and I would like to see if anyone at all is wishing to encourage you to waste the blogs bandwidth on such drivel.I tend to think such a quick accusation that I am trolling you is a defensive response. You should just ignore it. I didn't pose the question to you anyway.When Mikeselectricstuff or J Diddy start posting in these video comments then I might think the technical people are seeing something worthwhile. Me, I'm just a hobbyist who would rather see you do something interesting.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 07:41:46 am
content: I like these updates because I don't have time to follow this ridiculous project myself. Like Dave says though, he makes what he wants.

author: Doom-the-Squirrel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 08:35:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2019, 01:48:16 amThat sounds like a good plan. Let's do it!All we need is some marketing. What to call the idea?

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 08:41:32 am
content: Quote from: Doom-the-Squirrel on December 05, 2019, 08:35:52 am"Solar Sideways" or "Solar Noways""Building on the immense success of "Solar Roadways" we decided to see if we somehow could improve on the fine results they have achieved".......

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 09:10:26 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 05, 2019, 07:33:46 amSo - do you think you have the right to go to Dave's home and tell him how to arrange his lounge furniture and what he should eat for dinner? ... Because that's what your "opinion" seems to look like.Dave's blog = Dave's rules. I didn't think that was rocket science, but maybe I'm mistaken. It would be more appropriate to acknowledge the privilege you have in being allowed to share. Don't like something? - then don't watch.I am, however, fascinated at the energy you expend complaining.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 09:12:53 am
content: The whole "snow" thing is a non-starter. No need for any calculations...As soon as any snow lands the panels' output will drop close to zero because it's covered up. It's not going to melt anything, ever.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 09:40:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2019, 05:23:14 amBan hammer! Ban hammer! Ban hammer!Say it with me people!!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 10:21:47 am
content: It raises a question though: Why isn't the mainstream press all over this as a bad idea, a waste of money?

author: jhpadjustable
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 11:48:47 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 10:21:47 amThe mainstream press is largely the organ of the managers and investors, collectively speaking (the 10%, as some sources call them). They operate the MSM solely to sell themselves as superior and indispensable. The only place to find truth is in the insider financial press, and even there you will find plenty of fatuous self-congratulation.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 10:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 05, 2019, 02:25:14 amHow many times does a bad idea need to be debunked due to next frekking solar initiative taken? The point here is i get the taste that frekking solar roadways is part ofman made climate change scamGRETA backed by Soros and the liberal globalist fascist TECHNOCRACY people as it have been proven many times already.Ask your self why is frekking solar roadways and all the other climate change green deals constantly built/proposed despite the initiators knows it wont work or have bad performance? To keep alive the circular argumentation TECHNOCRATIC New World Order people constantly uses? to, behind the curtain, push their real agenda? It's all about deceive and deception and distraction of people whos not informed to then be the front shield of TNWO without knowing they are so the agenda more easily can be pushed through, therefore exposure of TNWO agenda is quite important in whatever form its done, in this case by David debunking frekking solar roadways!Aldous Huxley, New brave Worldis good read...basically describes frekking solar roadways already in 1931, one year earlier TECHNOCRACY cult movement was invented, and one of their priests was no one else thenElon Musksgrand dad Dr. Joshua Haldeman..... You didnt see this coming did you troll!(If you are interested about TNWO scam crap you can go to CORBETTREPORT.COM and TECHNOCRACY.NEWS)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 11:13:22 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 05, 2019, 07:33:46 amWilfred, I am long beyond giving one rats arse what you think about me.You have been criticising everything I do and say for years,relentlessly. Trolling me by a thousand cuts.I encourage people to criticise what I say and do, but you have overstayed your welcome.Seriously, stop it, like I've told you a dozen times before, if you don't stop I'm going to eventually ban you.People might look at this response and go WTF, why, but they haven't seen the literally hundreds of times you have done this, and the dozens of times I've had to warn you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2019, 11:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2019, 09:12:53 amIt pulls the heater energy from the grid. This is why they need the rack of big PSU's inside the control box, photos of which have been shown on here somewhere previously and in one of my videos.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2019, 01:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2019, 11:16:07 pmWe can easily make the assumption everyone knows the heat capacity of water going through a phase change but I wonder how many people who do not have a scientific background or do not have cold country backwoods camping experience actually have a good intuitive feel for this. The first time Joe average goes winter camping in Canada and tries to melt snow for coffee he has his eyes opened.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 08:35:26 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2019, 01:48:16 amI would love to see this. To add insult to injury have it power a small flood light that shines over the SR installation.Also that snow melt pattern where it made holes is interesting, it looks like what happened is it did melt some snow under but it had an igloo effect where the heat stayed in and was allowed to accumulate. It eventually punched a hole in the top and all the heat escaped. It would probably never melt beyond that point if left alone. My city installed heated steps in front of city hall. A 300k+ installation. They still have to shovel it. People don't realize the amount of energy you need to melt snow. Rarely are you melting it from 0C either so those calculations are the absolutely best case scenario.I was on my roof last year shovelling snow off it as there was like 6+ feet in some spots and I was starting to get worried about potential ice damming or even collapse in spring when it starts to melt and gets very heavy. I noticed where the roof vents were, there was a small hole in the snow leading all the way down to the vents where it essentially created a small tunnel. The heat loss from the house was accumulating there and eventually was able to melt a bit of snow to make an air path but once that air flow was established there was not enough heat to melt any further snow. At least that's my theory... It also made it easier to find the vents!I have a 400w roof top install on my shed, but snow is a big issue. Well not snow, but ice. The minute we get freezing rain or wet snow and it turns into an ice/snow crust, the panels are caked for the rest of the year and the broom can't remove it. For regular snow I brush it off with a long brush. This year I just brought the battery inside and decided to not bother as it's not powering anything important anyway, but last year I was producing around 5w or so with the snow on it. I still managed to produce about 10kwh since the installation in fall that year. Since they are tilted I would probably have a slight chance of being able to deal with the ice using heat though. I want to experiment with heating the underside of the panels at some point, but I need a bigger battery bank and to setup a proper automation system. Probably do 4 golf cart batteries in a 24v configuration. My best bet would be to set it up so I can melt one panel at a time so I can concentrate energy to one. Then I would be producing a little bit and I can do the others. It would probably take a couple days to get to a point that they are clear again. For regular snow I would still be removing it manually, the heat would just be for when I get a crust that I can't remove.The SR setup is hopeless at dealing with snow. On a road you would still need snow plows... imagine the damage a snow plow would make to those!

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 09:21:59 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 08, 2019, 08:35:26 amThere arewaysto deal with that. I wonder if simply putting on plasti dip clear would work, it would make the surface flexible so if you give the panel a good tap the bending forces should break the ice.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 01:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 08, 2019, 08:35:26 amRegular roads from asphalt aren't that sturdy either. The snow plows they use over here have a piece of rubber / plastic at the bottom in order not to damage the road.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 10:00:59 pm
content: For steep concrete driveways we use heaters to prevent them from icing during winter. Typically 50W/sq. ft on a thermostat. Here that would be 220W per hex module or 6.6kW for the system. Assuming 50% duty cycle, 3.3kW the heaters are roughly using 79kWh per day say $0.10/kWh for $7.90/day or $237/month in grid electricity cost plus the display blinky LED drain.The system is really putting out nothing for energy, 110W peak power at 12/08/2019 partly cloudy and under 0.3kWh for the past week!Basically costing $8/per day heating costs for this installation over winter, entirely contributing to global warming.Compare the cost to hiring someone to shovel the snow off the panels. Let's pay them $25/hr and assume 10 minutes work to clear a snowfall, and it snows 12 times per month, for $50/month snow clearing labour cost.Basically costing $1.67/per day for snow removal over winter or 1/5 the cost of heaters.In reality, the modules seem to have a 1206 or two running hot for a heater and you have to include possible gains over the summer to see net payoff.Engineers do math for a reason, and solar systems aren't that hard to figure out if they are a fantasy.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2019, 10:44:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 08, 2019, 01:19:17 pmYeah I have to laugh when they come in spring and do "cold patching" on pot holes. The next year the snow plow just rips those patches right out.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2019, 02:29:06 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 08, 2019, 10:44:02 pmHow do you integrate the inductive light sensors at every intersection?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2019, 03:10:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 09, 2019, 02:29:06 amLike for traffic lights? I've seen some on some streets (can see where they cut to install it) but most of our intersections don't have it and it's just a timer. I imagine the wires are deep enough like about a foot or so. I guess they can't be too deep though or they won't be as effective.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2019, 06:07:43 am
content: Inductive road sensors (as an add-on) are small groove wet-saw cut as a square loop in the asphalt, with some caulk on that.A bigger problem is ice jacking if water gets in and freezes. That will make things move or crack. Freeze-thaw cycles cause terrible potholes every year.So another reason heating and melting snow might be a bad idea if the water gets underneath the SR4 module's drain (which is likely frozen too), I would expect the modules to get trashed.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 06:20:47 am
content: Actually now that you mention it I think it may just be that, a groove, then a rubber sealant on top. They go in with a tiger torch to melt it in so it blends decently with the road and makes a fairly solid fix. At least that's how they fix cracks sometimes. not sure what the product is if it's rubber or something else, but it holds up decently. May even be roof tar.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 05:03:18 pm
content: When you have money, you can do interesting things. Race car driver Mario Andretti has an Italian Villa style home with a block driveway - can't really run a plow on that as it would rip up the blocks. There are water pipes under the block - in Summer, the heat is used to heat the water in his pool. In winter, warm water is circulated through the pipes, and in a light snow, it's enough to keep the block warm enough that the snow never sticks. But get a heavy snowfall, and it's game over, it can't keep up, the snow eventually cools the block enough to be able to accumulate, and it gets all covered like any other road. Not sure what they do then - keep circulating the water until it melts, or end up hand shoveling it all, or use a snowblower or plow with a generous clearance setting at the bottom (since the warm water can probably easily melt an inch of snow off, set the blade high to avoid scraping any brick, and let the heated block take care of the rest).It's partially solar - he has solar panels that heat the water - but there's no way to get enough heat just from that. I've driven past during light snow - other driveways and sidewalks are covered, the main road is not due to traffic, and neither is his driveway.I do like the idea of putting a standard solar panel installation on the roof there and compare the output to the Solar Freakin Roadways blocks. Heck, just a single panel could probably outgenerate those silly things.