Are cheap camcorders false economy (for video-only)? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 10:04:58 am
content: TL;DR - well that's just rude! But you can skip to the bottom section if you are so inclinedI've recently started a video blog (no uploads yet - going to get a handful put together before I upload them) at the suggestion of a friend who found my random tinkerings and experimentations interesting.The audio is recorded on a Samson Go mic (which I bought ages back for an underground noise (wait - does that count as "seismic"?) series of experiments) - and I'm happy with the audio.The video quality on the other hand... well just now I'm recording on three devices (simultaneously) - 2x Motorola Moto G (2nd Gen) - and an Amazon Kindle Fire.All these devices output 720p at 26FPS... eeeh... kinda. Actually, the FPS is variable - if I transcode it the video gets weird in places - if I don't, syncing up the audio needs to be done multiple times (pretty much every time I speak) - which is a PiTA!So with that in mind, I can either find a workaround or upgrade the recording hardware.Given that I am just starting out - there is absolutely no point in buying an expensive camera: for all I know I'll get bored after five videos which nobody watched anyway! - which limits me to cheap hardware (which I consider <£100)Memories of bad video footage makes me shudder: we've all seen bad youtube videos with creakey audio, shakey, poorly lit footage and a cat doing something cute with a hamster and a sweater - and rampant capitalism has taught me to associate cheap recording equipment with that bad footage!Once I got past that initial disgust - I started to wonder - are they all that bad? I have a good microphone: which would usually be my biggest complaint with cheap recording equipment (I'mlooking atlistening to you, mobile-phone footage!)I am going to try an experiment tonight with my Raspberry Pi's (original) 5MP camera (which can run 1080p@30FPS or 720p@60fps) to see if I can get better results (though, it does lack lenses... hmmm... that probably won't be an issue actually - it's not like I'm being artsy!)And that finally brings us round to the crux of the matter: bearing in mind that I have decent audio recording capability - would a sub-£100 camera capable of 1080p@30fps (likethis, just for argument's sake - there are cheaper options too) be good enough to get me off the ground - or would the video improvements from that be a false economy over my existing cameras? What are the "cons" of a cheap/low-end digital camcorder?

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 11:13:17 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 12, 2017, 10:27:37 amI thought BigClivestillused an IPadI was having a gander at some of the earliest EEVblog episodes yesterday - his production value has improved tremendously since his nascent days!QuoteAs in a point-and-shoot for recording? Huh, I've never actually considered thatI do have a decent camera for stills (Canon powershot G6) - so with that in mind I'll probably try and stick with my existing hardware.Come to think of it, the footage that I've got isn't bad - it's the variable frame rate that is the most irksome. The "26fps" footage here has a minimum FPS of 12 and a max fps of 26.988; there must be apps out there that I can lock the FPS with! I'll try lowering the quality (as opposed to the resolution) and see if that helps any - maybe a third party app might help as well!If the Raspberry Pi's camera works, it will probably be superior (I'll be able to SSH the files over to my main computer for one thing) - maybe a clip-on lens or two might make some shots better: but most importantly, it won't take long to set up!) I've never put much thought behind using the Raspberry Pi's camera actually - the last time I used it, it was kinda grainy (low light) - it may perform pretty well on my bench setup though. We shall see!As for shooting in portrait-mode....... what a coincidence - I just finished a rant about that very subject! There was some choice language employed in the most colourful way imaginableQuoteI've been impressed with the audio quality coming out the Samson Go (I think Dave done a teardown of it on the EEVBlog2 channel? My memory fails me) - even with oscilloscopes and PSU and laptop fans running it didn't really pick up the noise - and had good pickup even across the room.Lighting might be a problem initially - the bench lights use a number of LED strips (the adhesive-reel-kind) which are angled to light the workbench but not blind me at the same time: so shooting footage on the bench itself is pretty good - but so far, shots anywhere else have been a mixed bag. Between the window and the point light on the ceiling, simply moving a few feet in either direction can ruin the shot - all part of the learning curve!I'll probably make a DIY lightbox or some sort of diffuse light source in the near future - I'm thinking of abusing some old desk-lamps for the purpose.QuoteSage adviceTo be honest, I'm not too concerned about the viewership - my primary aim is to enjoy myself; and if somebody else enjoys my videos, then that's just a bonus!Thanks for the advice =D

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 11:37:32 am
content: Big Clive uses either an tablet or a phone I think. Julian Illet uses a phone. There are various other youtubers the same. For their sort of "overhead" type setup I think that very simple setup works well but the key is light.iforce2d also does a lot of overhead desk shots and live-mixes his PC desktop for code etc, he did a video about his setup

author: Kevman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 05:02:20 pm
content: Variable framerate may be in response to low light- framerate drops on many cameras when trying to see in the dark.What do you have your microphone plugged into? If you have a computer nearby just buy a decent webcam- the C920 and C922 are popular- and use that. They're cheaper than that thing you linked and will probably do just as well or better. You also get the benefit of not having to stitch your video and audio together and import it from the camera.If you do buy a camcorder, do yourself a favor and get an optical zoom. You won't regret it. Perhaps you can get lucky on Ebay?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 05:23:20 pm
content: Many (most?) cheap video cameras will produce remarkably good imagesWITH SUFFICIENT LIGHTING!!!!Even if you buy an expensive camera that performs above-average in low-light, the image quality will still suffer from shadows and uncontrolled dynamic range. And it will simply lack that visual quality that makes people want to watch your videos.As you have shown, it is not difficult to provide decent lighting with those stick-on LED strips, etc.Get your lighting sorted out FIRST, and then evaluate your camera situation.You can't have too much light. Makes it easier to work even when not shooting video.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 05:05:06 am
content: Certainly, lighting isthemost important factor in any such setup - whether recording or live.Lighting must be sorted out so that every important element of the shot is clearly shown - and that other areas of the scene are appropriately lit to keep the image looking 'balanced'.Shadows and reflections are basics thatmustbe properly covered. White balance is another important one.The list goes on - focus, framing, etc. - but it starts with lighting.

author: laneboysrc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 05:22:34 am
content: Regarding the FPS issue: With my Samsung phone that shoots variable fps I successfully use Handbrake to transcode to a fixed frame-rate video that keeps audio in sync. Big disadvantage: it takes a long time and generates lots of additional data.Beside a dedicated video cameras, have a look at modern point-and-shoot cameras. For example a second-hand Canon Ixus 265 for little money does 1080p30s H.264 with constant frame rate and a very decent video quality. It can also do satisfactory macro shots without additional lens. And it is smaller than my phone, and has more useful picture settings like AE lock, AF lock, custom white balance, etc.That said: carefully study specs before you buy as some lower end models are 1080/24p only, or have other weird limitations.As many already said: lighting is the most important part of good video, invest in that first!

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 09:40:51 am
content: Thanks for the advice everybody!The general consensus is that lighting is the priority. I'm going to buy a ~5600 lumen LED batten light (from the new screwfix down the road - 10% off during the opening sale! I'll save ~£4!) to replace the filament bulb on the ceiling (I've been meaning to do that for like, two years now!)I'm also going to increase the number of LED strips mounted on the bench and modify two desk lamps (the goose-necked kind) with diffusers/reflectors (all DIY of course) so I can get the bench lighting optimised. The white walls should help a bit in that regard as well -It will certainly be an interesting learning curve!Returning to the FPS issue - I'll try various lighting to see if that improves things - I can confirm that in low light it averages 15 fps: under the bench lights it averages 26 FPS - but dropped as low as 12 last time I checked.That webcam suggestion might be an idea - the audio recording is done on a linux laptop - so hooking a camera up to it as well is hardly difficult! Speaking of which, my raspberry pi camera has died - no data coming off the sensor, I suspect it's an I2C issue but I can't be bothered debugging it: future video perhapsI'll persevere with the Phone-cameras for a few videos and see if I can't figure out a way to make syncing the audio easier - and then move onto a webcam if that bears fruit.After that I can start optimising the other aspects of recording visualsThanks again for all the help!--EDIT--Quick correction: whenever I've said "lightbox" I actually meant "softbox": either way, turns out they're fairly easy and cheap to make. Found a website called DIY Photography: WYSIWYG) Experimenting with all this lighting is going to be fun!--EDIT--Just had a "derp" moment - I reckon a 5600 lumen ceiling light is far, far too bright for a reasonably small, white-coloured room.This revelation brought to you by "That little voice at the back of your head who points out blatantly obvious stuff"

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 10:53:01 am
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on September 13, 2017, 09:40:51 amYou say this now....

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 11:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: laneboysrc on September 13, 2017, 05:22:34 amAnother Canon - A810. It does HD video and uses 2 - AA batteries and you can get an adapter and can run it off of 5v USB.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2017, 12:16:02 am
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on September 13, 2017, 09:40:51 amOne way to sync is make a loud noise that you can "see" in a video editor. It has to stand out to be seen. I used a dog clicker that I held out of view. You could just bang a spoon on the table. But I was using an in-camera mic AND an external mic. The audio inside the camera was sync'd with the video.

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 09:23:28 am
content: Ooops! I thought I had replied to all of these alreadyI must not have clicked "post" or somethingQuote from: ez24 on September 14, 2017, 12:16:02 amAlready on itSyncing at the beginning is easy - I have 3D printed mini-clapperboard (I'll put the design on thingiverse once I refine it a little) - makes a loud "clack" that gets picked up easily on all the recording equipment.The problem at the moment is not syncing it at the beginning - it'skeepingit synced afterwards - I'm still fiddling around with transcoding trying to get it to not go out of sync by the end of the footage - that's a matter for the lightworks forum thoughQuote from: Brumby on September 13, 2017, 10:53:01 amWell that's ominous!I installed the new lighting yesterday - oh, it's magnificent... probably won't help much when shooting video though (bright overhead light anyone?) - I'll cross that bridge when I come to it though.Unfortunately the lab's a tip at the moment - I'm decorating the spare room (executive order from SWMBO) - so all the stuff that used to live in there is now in the lab **twitch** - so I should be able to look at sorting the frame-rate/sync issue and work on the lighting over the weekend - ready to go by next week. Here's hoping!Quote from: ez24 on September 13, 2017, 11:58:33 pmOoop, forgot to mention - going to persevere with the mobile phones for a short while and then upgrade to either a point and click camera or a webcam - will keep your suggestions in mind when I get to that stage!Thanks for all the help folks! Very much appreciated - lots of good tips in here!

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 06:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on September 12, 2017, 10:04:58 amAs someone who watches and deals with a lot of YT videos let me make a suggestion that few do. Pay attention to the name of your videos. Look carefully at how Dave names his videos. He starts with "his" name. If I come across a file on my computer made by Dave I know it is from him. If I sort, all his sort together. Dave is a master at YT, study his administrative methods carefully. Names, length, playlists, About, etc.This is my number one puzzle, why so many smart people make bad titles.Use the full length of space for the title - someone might search on something you add so add a lot. Make the title as long as you can.Study YT search engine. For example, for time, you can only search on <4 min or >20 min. So if between these there is no search on time. Personally I have found that most of the good videos are over 20 min so ">20 min" is my number one search.Make and maintain playlists.Good luck

author: Solder Joe
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 08:48:26 pm
content: I have been building a CCTV camera system for myself to install around the house. Windows based system with software that cost about $100. You can buy BNC cards with 4-16 inputs from Ebay that support most cameras and are very affordable. Good trusted store that makes and sells them with very good support. You need a dual-core system with at least 1Gb of ram. You can copy the data over to your editing rig very easily. Linux network does a good job with zoneminder aswell. You have remote Point tilt and zoom. I have been buying bulk lots of CCTV cameras off Ebay They are so cheap if only one works it's still worth it. I've also been fixing some of the better quality ones. I have enough spare parts now.It got me thinking. These systems are getting good enough that if you set up 4 cameras around you it would make a decent filming rig for filming at a desk or workbench. Really affordable to get set up. Starting with a cheap 2nd hand PC a BNC card A lot of CCTV cameras, 4 that shoot 720 at least. It only cost me $400. You could keep adding cameras and upgrading as you go. You wouldn't have to keep buying new expensive cameras. When you think it's worth investing, a good 1080 CCTV 10MP camera with night vision and PTZ you can get as low as $200 each. You can interchange lenses for macro shots and wide angle. There is lots of lens and filter options available. If I was going to start a YouTube channel, his is what I'd try first.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 09:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: Solder Joe on September 19, 2017, 08:48:26 pmEditing is what you will try next and last. Editing with so many cameras will be so hard you probably never finish the first video. The professionals use one camera and one take (editing cuts only).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2017, 10:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on September 19, 2017, 09:01:04 pmIf the video is already synced multi cam editing is no more difficult than editing a single roll (easier to cover problems without reshoots too).

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2017, 02:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on September 19, 2017, 10:34:00 pmIf only I could get it to sync!I tried again last night and it took me an hour to get a five minute video synced properly - although I could bring that down a bit with practice, it still involved transcoding it twice - not really what I want to do if I can help it.With that in mind, I went ebay-crawling and picked up a Canon A3400, new, for £45 - though I might get better footage with a webcam - the CHDK compatibility and ability to take it out and about with me will be useful (since I wont have to be tied to the laptop to use it). It's only 720p @ 25fps though - and at that cost, it will certainly do for starting out!Quote from: ez24 on September 19, 2017, 06:43:38 pmJeez, ez24, you're a goldmine of advice on the subjectAye, I've been taking heed of many of Dave's techniques (plus he's fun to watch) - hadn't put much thought into titling the videos though - other than to include the episode number.I might start a thread on the "Other Blog Specific" board on the subject actually - we've definitely drifted far from our original goal of deciding whether a cheap camcorders would represent a poor purchase for potential vbloggersMy various online searches suggest that below the £150-break-in point for a lot of the name-brand cameras (canon, panasonic, nokia, etc), the no-name brands tend to not be terrible - but not be that good either - they are often equivalent to much cheaper point-and-shoot cameras but in a camcorder formfactor (in which case you might as well spend less money to get a camera with better specs overall that still does video)And on that subject, I should hopefully have a video out soon (within 1-2 weeks) once I get used to all the intricacies of shooting and what I suspect may be the lengthy task of editingI'll make a post in the "Other Blog Specific" board once I get it up and running and have a few videos under the belt.Thanks again for all the help and advice folks!

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2017, 04:32:17 pm
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on September 20, 2017, 02:46:42 pmFrom the start think of ways to cut down editing. It is the number one killer.