My pet peev........dried out eletrolytics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 12:09:56 pm
content: Hi all,My pet peev is faulty boards due to use of cheap electrolytics that dry out too quickly (the domed tops are a dead giveaway).Two recent repairs I've had to do in and around the home.......my own web/email server PC and the wife's washing machine.......both just a few years old.Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like, but in the case of the washing machine for sure I reckon they spec these parts so the WILL fail pretty quickly and thus require maintenance, worst case a new board.Funny how both failures seem to use the same brand of cap.Ian.The washing machine control board:-Motherboard from my web/email server PC:-

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 12:55:59 pm
content: if the Maytag man came by, he likely would have quoted you a entire board for half the price of a new washer.i got a nice "new" printer last week... my neighbor was tossing out a HP C5180 because it was "broke". she happened to see me outside and asked if i wanted it. sure! a 40¢ electrolytic later i was enjoying my new hp network printer.teapo is brand i see crap out a LOT.i wonder how much electronic goods get binned due to a single bad cap or a crappy solder joint??-sj

author: WBB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 01:24:11 pm
content: The really sad part is that they put all that crap in a washing machine! It washes clothes for crying out loud! Just put a big mechanical knob on it that'll last for 20 years. I don't need a washing machine with a control panel that looks like it came from a spaceship and is just waiting to kill over. Next (if not already) they'll stick a USB port on them for firmware updates. But that is an entirely different rant.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 01:31:40 pm
content: No surprise there, itscrapxonCapXon brand isn't it ?A very well known brand for for bulging and leaking, especially when placed at warm area.

author: Ajahn Lambda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 06:03:32 pm
content: Quote from: sonicj on March 14, 2012, 12:55:59 pmQFT. I have a 'dead' EPoX motherboard with about eight Teapo capacitors on it, and about three Panasonics. The Teapos have ALL failed, with bulging tops and/or leaking electrolyte. Maybe that was why the system would randomly restart...?I have a few other defunct devices with those time-bombs inside.QuoteMy dumpster diving, flea market, garage sale, Goodwill, and Salvation Army hunts for electronic goods seem to indicate quite a few things are tossed for very minor reasons. I often find things with broken knobs and buttons, damaged cords, etc., but otherwise they work fine; if it's an item that merely doesn't turn on, I can usually get it for free or at a reduced price. It's too bad people seem to 'need' new things instead of finding a repairman, or better yet learn how to repair it themselves. First-world problems, eh?In old audio amplifiers, tube and solid-state, I almost always find bad filter capacitors. I hate when I find un-vented caps though, since there's no visually-obvious sign they're bad. A quick check with the ESR meter tells me right away, though. On the bright side, even good electrolytic capacitors are cheap cheap cheap!IanJ:How old are those boards? If they're from the early 2000s, that's probably a clue as to why they failed:QuoteSource:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

author: im_a_human
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 06:35:28 pm
content: Look in many (*cough*) apple products of the past, imac's, emac's, etc, and you will see almost entire boards with bulging cap's. stupid apple never learn to make there products run cool!!!

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 06:54:24 pm
content: Add to the list Netgear routers. They run their caps near (or actually above!) to rated voltage and temperature. Bulging caps abound. Currently trying to get router refunded or replaced because of this.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 07:51:22 pm
content: Quote from: SigEpBlue on March 14, 2012, 06:03:32 pmThe washing machine is 5 years old.The PC mb is probably about the same.PS. I googled both model numbers (washing machine & PC) and it's RIFE.......heck, even the guy that sits across from me at work has the SAME washing machine and had the SAME problem a couple years ago.Like I said, it's my pet peev....grrr!Ian.

author: davec
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2012, 08:10:23 pm
content: I've had a bunch of Samsung LCD TV's all with the same problem, and it seems to be made worse by the fact the caps are right next to a heat source. I've seen a few different age sets with the same problem, and on the newer ones they seem to have changed brands and even gone for a larger value capacitors, but still haven't moved them a bit further from the heatsinks.I had a rant about it a while ago:http://tynemouthsoftware.blogspot.com/2012/02/samsung-lcd-tvs-power-supply-fault.htmlIt's almost as if they expect them to go in a couple of years (after the warranty has expired), so the TV fails and the user has to buy a new TV.But it's not just them, the world is full of switch mode power supplies with filter capacitors that are all drying up as we speak. I've replaced countless ones over the years. OK, I could probably have counted them, but I didn't, suffice to say it's lots.Insert further rant about throw away society and things not being made to last anymore and everything else that is wrong with the world.....

author: The_Penguin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2012, 03:11:45 pm
content: This is no surprise to me.In the last year and a half I have repaired 29 LCD monitors, 2 TVs, one multifunction printer, an iMac, and a high-end IP conference phone, and a few PC motherboards, just as a hobby, not my job.All of them had failed caps, some had other isses on top of the bad caps (failed FETs etc. probably caused by the bad caps)

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2012, 06:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: WBB on March 14, 2012, 01:24:11 pmYes... I remember my mother's Philips washing machine with a bank of mechanical push buttons failing. The switches no longer wanted to 'lock' when pushed in. Some investigation showed the locking mechanism had spit out a broken small pin. I replaced that with a piece cut from a paperclipThe machine never broke again. It was already 15+ years old before the first failure, it ran at least 5 years longer with the paperclip. Replacement was eventually because it started to rust too badly. All later machines (yes, with electronics) failed in 5 years or less. Her comment: that Philips was the best I ever had

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2012, 06:12:15 pm
content: "Bad caps" as they are called aren't anything new, and even the big manufacturers use them...which is actually something quite confusing.Giants like HP, Logitech or any major tech brand makes their product in such huge quantities that the difference in price between using high quality caps and crap caps is so marginal that I just can't see why they would use the crap caps. When you're buying 500,000caps at a time with huge bulk discounts why in the heck would you settle for bad quality parts? Same thing applies for all types of components.Years back, quality parts were harder to source, but now I do not think there is any justification for using low quality parts.So could it be true that manufacturers purposely use crap caps as a ticking time bomb waiting to explode?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2012, 07:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: FenderBender on March 17, 2012, 06:12:15 pmThey want the consumers to buy MORE after it's out of it's warranty , greedy companies nowdays !In the past , it was harder to source and yet every single manufacturer used quality caps ( i'm talking about 00's era )

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2012, 03:40:56 am
content: I wouldn't say every company used good quality caps...I've seen my fair share of equipment from the 90s-00s with bad caps.True, I think good caps were easier to come by.Definitely corporate greed. Nothing new. It's been around since the age of the railroad. But they keep on creeping into areas they should stay out of.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2012, 05:44:13 pm
content: I had an AEG Lavamat Electronic for years, the most reliable machine ever. Was 20 odd years old when I got it, a little rusted and a little iffy in spinning. New motor brushes and resoldering the power board fixed that, and it ran a treat. Main board had an AEG microcontroller ( was a standard one with the pins bent around the other way so it was a mirror off the app note just to confuse you, giveaway was the demoulding marks on top of the chip, along with an AEG part number). Eventually what killed it was main bearing failure, and the seal and bearing kit was available, but was near to the cost of the new machine I bought. It still ran, but the neighbours 2 floors down complained of the noise on spin cycle. Needed a new pump as well, it was running on a pump I modified after the original died by welding a new motor on the pump shaft to turn it.As to dried caps, they are a problem in many things. Fixed lots of stuff over the years with bad caps. Some die quickly, some die slowly, some go violently and some just go quietly into the dark.

author: Ajahn Lambda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2012, 09:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: FenderBender on March 18, 2012, 03:40:56 amI blame business majors.Seriously, IMHO/E, engineers make such better decisions as owners of companies than the people 'trained' to run them!

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2012, 10:04:44 pm
content: When I was a Service engineer for a microfilm company we had a product meeting and were complaining en mass about something (exactly what escapes me now) to be told by the service director that it was a good job that the 'engineers' didn't design the equipment because it would cost 10 the amount and never breakdown. Sad but true

author: DarkPrince
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2012, 02:38:01 am
content: Quote from: WBB on March 14, 2012, 01:24:11 pmI had to laugh at that... Might as well as bring up an example while at it. Unfortunately I can not disagree entirely... I am fine with making things more complex, but I am not okay with making them break down intentionally. Electronics can last a long time too, if quality parts were used.(One|Random) USB Example:http://www.whirlpool.com/--1001711/WTW7990XG/* Just look at the Features list, and the image gallery and you will find it. Firmware updates and the ability to customize wash cycles.Ah thats funny. Okay I am done with off-topic.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2012, 09:09:47 pm
content: ROHS pretty much guarantees todays electronics won't be available to pass down to future generations.tin whiskers

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 08:39:49 am
content: It's mostly due to tin whiskers that causes most electronics to break down in a two years or three .RoHS ? Screw them .

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 10:05:53 am
content: thank you for that link... just another tip on how to make gear last forever,

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 12:03:52 pm
content: RoHS: Revenge of 'Harmless' Substances

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 01:41:28 pm
content: Quote from: _Sin on March 20, 2012, 12:03:52 pm

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 08:54:48 pm
content: Well, as luck would have it I was repairing a PSU for a NAS tonight and lo and behold......a popped Teapo (100uF 25v).My pet peev continues.Ian.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 11:15:05 am
content: Cleaned a PC on Monday, dust city. A few are starting to go, but have not gone into orbit yet. After the dustectomy it worked a lot better, no screaming fans and no BSOD on start up. Not the CPU caps, but random decoupling on the rest of the board. Not bad for a 5 year old unit.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 11:28:01 am
content: Quote from: WBB on March 14, 2012, 01:24:11 pmI knew someone who was an EE and landed a job in Japan in the late 80's. His gig was to help design parts in VCR's that last for the duration of the warranty period. No more no less.And even if the washing machine doen't last forever, it still beats carrying your washing basket down to the water and looking for a big rock.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 12:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: IanJ on March 20, 2012, 08:54:48 pmOut of interest, what brand of NAS/PSU?I've had a couple die - in the end I replaced with a cheap PSU. I haven't gotten around to the "take it apart" stage yet for the broken ones, but one of them is on my shelf waiting until I have some time...(both of mine were ReadyNAS units, now owned by Netgear)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 01:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 21, 2012, 11:28:01 amHere that involves also watching out for both crocodiles and serial killers.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 06:56:40 pm
content: Quote from: _Sin on March 21, 2012, 12:20:21 pmJust a cheap Ebay NAS. I don't use it for anythng critical.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 01:25:48 pm
content: So I decided to take a look at my dead PSU last night.Turns out it a was a much more complicated issue which couldn't possibly have been forseen by the manufacturer..... oh no, wait, I'm lying - it was a bad cap.

author: adept
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 01:35:16 am
content: All I have to say is AMEN!Things that had a Cap blow I had to fix:My server moboA friend's 7 grand AlienWare PCBand's sound systemA few metronomesblah blah blahSomeone NEEDS to invent a capacitor that DOESN'T suck that can filter the low frequencies. (or we could raise the frequency of the mains so that filtering is less of a problem... or ban AC in general... or something else equally radical!)

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 02:18:49 am
content: to smooth low frequency you need high amounts of capacitance, you can approach it with tantalums, but gets unreasonably large in most instances,what really needs to be done is for companies to take some pride in there products again and stop using parts known to fail shortly after the warrenty period is up,

author: Ajahn Lambda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 03:44:12 pm
content: The old-school filtering method was to use large inductors, often rated in several henries. These suckers were usually equivalent in their physical size to the power transformer feeding them. With the advent of cheap & large electrolytic capacitors, and the sky-rocketing price of copper, caps became the dominant filtering component, though you may see inductors occasionally in precision and/or EMI filtering stuff. $5 worth of capacitors is usually preferred over a much-heavier, > $50 inductor.Quote from: Rerouter on March 24, 2012, 02:18:49 amThat won't happen with consumer electronics. Consumers wantcheap cheap cheap, hence why the manufacturing of consumer goods has gone to china and other countries without environmental, working, safety, or other regulations. Without the need or demand to make quality goods, there's no motivation for using higher-quality components. We are, unfortunately, the minority: the guys and gals that will take this stuff apart and understand its deficiencies; most consumers (us included, sometimes) will just knuckle under and buy another piece of shit, because we have little choice thanks to the majority making new machines the cost-effective route. We could go into discussions about the costs of manufacturing, warranty claims, replacement and service costs, etc. for years here, but I think you get my drift. I'm trying hard to buck the trend with my own products, through better design and component selection, but man, there is HUGE pressure to use cheaper components to keep the hit to the bottom-line down.The only places where electronics that seem to last, and time-honored, built-up brand names count, are in the aerospace and instrumentation (read: scientific and engineering) industries. There are likely others, but these are the two I see regularly. Companies' reputations, and even human lives, are at stake in those. Think of Boeing, for example. As a participating hoo-man, Iwant themto get the very best possible instrumentation and equipment for engineering and testing the products I will be using.That said, how much would we be paying for a washing machine if it were built using better electronics? Well, if its electrolytic capacitors were changed to United Chemi-Cons of proper grade/series, probably not a whole lotper machine. But when you're manufacturing tens if not hundreds of thousands of machines, the pennies add up quickly for the manufacturer.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 04:03:57 pm
content: It's all built down to a price , if we get back those days where paying big prices for quality gear is okay , people will BAULK .They only care about consumers , that buy another junk .In the end better caps last longer and we wouldn't pay extra in terms of a , a machine that lasts 3 years @ 1000$ , a similar machine and lasts 6 years @ 1500$ ? which one do you want ? Of course it's the last one , but then again , really the average consumer , wouldn't pay the extra 500$ even if it lasts 2x longer .

author: Polossatik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 06:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 24, 2012, 04:03:57 pmthe main problem is that there is no way to know if the extra 500$ will actually buy you a better product.I've seen expensive $ brand things crapping out after 3 year (talking about stuff like "big brand name" dishwashers who are 2x the price of a store brand ... not the newest 3D tv)It looks like there is no (consumer) brand today that actually cares about longevity of their devices, or maybe is in a position to be able to care due price pressure,which does not really help to justify spending the extra $$ in the "hope" it's a better product.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 10:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: Polossatik on March 24, 2012, 06:54:14 pmPrecisely because of that nobody buys the possibly better stuff . Everyone is scared now , it's all those big brands that can sell themself at a very high price but only lasts same amount of time .

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 10:51:01 pm
content: what my veiw is, consumers buying cheap, has actually been compounded by the way that more expensive items now seem to fail at exactly the same rate as the one that costs 2-3 times less, and thus dont want to invest heavily, in something that is going to just break post warrenty,some of you might find it ironic that vehicle instrumentation has even followed the same trend, some toyota dashes followed the same demise from 2 smoothing capacitors in the speedo leaking not long after 3-4 years, commodores follow suit with gears, and mercedes follow suit with connectors,