Single person full product design - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 06:30:06 am
content: Has anyone made a gadget from start to finish doing everything themselves including the mechanicals?As an example I'm thinking of the humble LED bicycle light which on the surface appears easy but if you write out the list of requirements it's as long as your arm.For starters it has to work in a high vibration, high humidity environment with extremes of temperature, keep the rain out, be able to be operated while wearing gloves, have a visual indicator that is visible day and night, not catch fire when dropped on the ground and so on.Can one person do this kind of project or do you really need a team of specialists?

author: mengfei
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 06:42:37 am
content: Nowadays a single person can have almost all the info he needs to make or build something But will never be a master of such..for a dedicated Product with safety features it's much better to have a Team do that although you can do it on your own, what credentials will you show/ offer? Google & youtube?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 06:47:01 am
content: Shorten the long list into manageable blocks. Palm off the blocks accordingly.

author: AndersJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:06:46 am
content: What does ”palm off” mean?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:13:40 am
content: You can do it all yourself. The mechanical design software is available for free or relatively cheap. There are companies in china that will cast or injection mold parts for you if you send them a STEP file. Similarly, you can hack together a web service, software and firmware if you have general programming skills.Should you though? I'm not proficient in most of these skills, and humble enough to turn to experts. The end result is usually cheaper and better products. I've seen too many designs recently that was finished by experts outside their expertise, and it's not pretty.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:15:40 am
content: Quote from: AndersJ on July 11, 2023, 09:06:46 amNot to be taken literately. But essentially, I meant to hand over certain difficult portions of the project to specialists.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:21:33 am
content: It's probably possible but you also need significant funds to do certain things. For instance, injection moulding tools, can easily cost $20,000 for something small like a bike light.Building a product is a lot more than building just that product as well. There is test, supply chain, marketing, etc. If you only intend to make a one off, then you obviously don't need to worry about these, and you might be able to make everything 3D printed.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:42:14 am
content: As an aside, unless you have some killer unique feature, bike lights are a bit of a commodity. Alibaba will be full of them, then as cycling is popular in the west it already has attracted the "put everything on the internet" craze. Plenty of competition at the high end alreadyhttps://seesense.cc/But can it all be done by 1 person? Depends on the scale of the project, but if the project is small enough and you have the skill set, the fewer people involved the better.Also plastic tooling is a bitch, I've had projects drag 4 years getting the enclosure right when the electronics were done and stable after 6 weeks. Iterations are expensive and long, consultants are expensive and usually only know their narrow field, if that.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 11:57:13 am
content: Quote from: bookaboo on July 11, 2023, 09:42:14 amJust looked at their demo video, those things blink and flash like crazy. The bad light pattern is stupidly compensated by higher luminosity. That would be a great example of how not to design bike lights. State of the art can be found here:https://www.bumm.de/en/As you can see with Busch + Müller, optics and especially the reflector design are key to a great bike light. This could either be done using commercial optics design software ($$$), or a lot of patience, the parametric surface modeling software of your choice, and a raytracer like Blender.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 02:00:27 pm
content: Have you looked in the Work Wanted section of the forum?

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 02:23:18 pm
content: Quote from: m98 on July 11, 2023, 11:57:13 amWas just the first example that came to mind as they are based not far from me, I wouldn't know which end of a bike points forward as I prefer running

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 03:30:04 pm
content: I thought I would add some more context to my question.My theory is that consumer lights are purposely designed to fail after a year or two, so you have to buy a new one on a regular cycle.My goal is to make something that isn't plagued by obvious design flaws.For example, the normal way to cover an unused electrical port on a normal bit of outdoor electrical gear is to have a screw cap and O ring seal that looks something like thishttps://www.newark.com/productimages/standard/en_US/5064788.jpgRechargeable bike lights don't use this obvious solution. Instead they use thisA silicone rubber bung and weak lanyard that is engineered to fail after 18 months. Once the bung is lost water gets in and the light fails within a few days.Another example, the 18650 lipo cells commonly used in bike lights have a usable life of about 2 years but few lights are designed with replaceability in mind. The manufacturer wants you to throw the light in the garbage and buy a new one. I had to follow this tortuous tutorial to replace a battery in a light which is actually one of the better ones available.And then there are the issues of the inappropriate beam patterns, problems blinding oncoming drivers, flashing modes that make no sense and so many usability issues tied up with a single button interface that is trying to do everything demanded by the marketing department. It's just a mess.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 06:11:26 pm
content: There is no simple answer to this. At one level the answer is no. No individual will be able to manufacture lamps, batteries and the other components of even a relatively simple device like a bike light. On the other hand I have no doubt that an individual can design and build a bike lite that is superior by many metrics to most of not all such devices on the market. But it will require quite some time, and intense learning in areas new to the individual. And I unless the individual is unusually well off financially will be unable to develop tooling and other necessities to make the result price competitive.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:57:28 pm
content: Well, you've picked a cheap product that has to work reliably in a very unforgiving environment. On top of that, it's a market that has a high saturation with plenty of alternatives. Also, it is really hard for a new brand to sell reliability and trustworthiness. New startups are better off selling innovation and unique solutions.Personally, if I wanted to make and sell a product all by myself, I would look for a problem with no readily available solution, ideally one I have experience of, in an underrepresented market. Sometimes it's an unavailable interface between this and that, sometimes it's a new and better way of doing something, sometimes there is hardly anyone making a thing. Whatever, you should find a niche in the marketplace where a fresh product has a chance. Ideally, one where you can charge a reasonable price per unit, so it's worth your time. Incremental advances on existing products are a dead end for a new startup.Back to the question of if it's possible, though. Yes, you can design circuits on paper. You can get free PCB design software and make your Gerbers. You can get small boards delivered for £10. You can solder them by hand. You can get a free 3D CAD program and make a Step or 3MF file, so you can 3D print enclosures at home. If you want something mass-produced and made by other people, then first get £100,000 in funding.So while it's completely possible to be a 1-man band these days and get something out there that might get you some funds to do things properly. I would pick a different product, though. You said it yourself, "The manufacturer wants you to throw the light in the garbage and buy a new one" and for the average consumer, that is what they expect. They would rather spend 50% on a light they have to replace every year than 100% on one that will last 5 years. The manufacturers know it too.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:05:20 pm
content: If the product is not too complex, of course you can.But if you are alone *and* are able to complete the product design and manufacturing all by yourself, chances are that you won't be as good with the marketing side of things, and a product is not worth much if you can't sell it. Just a thought.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 11, 2023, 10:05:20 pmIndeed, although the original question was whether a single person couldmakea gadget. I completely agree that the person that could make it, probably couldn't sell it successfully.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:26:23 pm
content: Quote from: Microdoser on July 11, 2023, 10:21:18 pm100% this -- making is the "easy" part, the need to make a profitable (or even sustainable) business out of it moves everything up to hard mode. That's true even more so if you are trying to make a business of competing with cheap stuff where your differentiation is quality. People have shown that no matter how much they "prefer" quality, statistically they will buy whatever is the cheapest option that isn't complete garbage.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:27:15 pm
content: Making will be a very slow process, as you need to learn several design tools and manufacturing processes. As well as deal with finance and logistics. Not even talking about marketing, sales and after sales support.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 11, 2023, 06:11:26 pmThe topic is about design, not manufacturingIMHO it is very possible to design a bike light (mechanics + electronics) as these are relatively simple devices and contrary to other suggestions you don't want to make it water tight. With manufacturing in Asia getting the costs low enough is no problem. However, design and manufacturing efforts are meaningless without the ability to actually sell the product (as others already noted as well).And where it comes to bike lights: don't use the ones on batteries as batteries just suck. Get a Shimano hub for your front wheel with an integrated alternator and run the lights from there. It simply works always.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 01:13:24 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 11, 2023, 10:37:06 pmEnglish is a wonderful language which allows us to read the same things very differently. I would also submit that design and manufacturing are intimately related, even if you don't physically participate in the build. A useful knowledge of the manufacturing process capabilities and characteristics is necessary to do a proper design. As I said, we agree that it is possible for a single individual to do a design of bike light level of complexity.Your opinions on a proper bike light design differ from others. That is the beauty of a market. Successful sales indicate correct decisions, and also note that different approaches can succeed. You just won't buy the ones that don't suit your fancy.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 05:49:52 am
content: Full-stack development of a prototype by one person is very feasible, I'd argue a lot of us on this forum effectively do it already.I'm not sure one person's expertise would be enough to go from a full working, finalised in virtually every sense, device to mass manufacture and sales though. I doubt there are many examples of single individuals knowing everything needed to make a product AND then everything needed to scale up to mass manufacturing (which sometimes requires changes to the product simply for improving the practicality of manufacturing steps, even when these don't d anything to iprove the performance or reliability above what the prototype achieved) AND then everything needed to successfully market the product and turn a profitable businss from it.

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 06:15:34 am
content: I have built a couple of products single-handedly. The tasks included the schematics, PCB layout (KiCAD), PC GUI development, BOM procurement, mechanical design, box assembly, marketing and sales , website design. The only thing i did not go myself was the PCB assembly, which was quite complicated.You can search for "IOT power profiler" ZS2102A and ZS1100A. I took a break from work and was sitting idle at home. Had all the time in the world to do al of these in about a year's time.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 06:54:39 am
content: QuoteYes, hundreds of products since 1978Your bike light examples are just incompetent design. Like USB connectors for charging, which let water in (I solve those by inserting a short USB cable into it and epoxy-ing all around the plug entry point, and let the cable dangle).Actually, making plastic parts which snap together properly is a real tricky process. The rules are well documented but still lots of people do it badly.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 07:23:02 am
content: I watched one of IanScott Johnston's YouTube videos the other night - looked to me like he does pretty much everything

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 07:53:43 am
content: I work for myself and do everything from circuit design, embedded software, pc software, design pcb's, build up pcb's and test/fix final pcb.A little variety makes the job more interesting.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 07:56:14 am
content: Since 1970s designed and made many products, some one off, some were in production.Used hand drawn schematics, NO simulations, CAD only for mechanincal and a SW pgm for magnetics.So it can be done but years of experience to get a viable and economic result,Jon

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 06:13:08 am
content: Yes one person can do this. When I design PCB and mech it is more efficient, easier to minimize the size and more enjoyable compared to just designing electronics and working with a mech designer.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 09:11:31 am
content: I don't know why she unlisted some of her videos, her best ones in my opinion, but fortunately i had the link to this one when i shared it to someone. She designed everything for this phone, from the electronics, to some of the software, to all the mechanical parts, including the rotary dial and case, not sure about the bell. This is i think the best example of one person alone designing a complete product:

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 11:40:03 am
content: Quote from: e100 on July 11, 2023, 03:30:04 pmNot sure that's a good example. For a consumer product the 'obvious' industrial solution of a screw cap can be just a pain in the arse to use, and many users would prefer the ability to quickly pop off the rubber and slip the USB plug in, all taken a mere moment. Particularly if they're going to do it often. Added to that, there's no loose cap swinging on the end of a tether which will get in the way, and... oh, just many reasons the bung is better in practice even though it's worse in function.I think the automatic assumption that things are designed to fail is not usually the right one. A good design is a trade-off of many competing and incompatible requirements, and focusing on the single 'must last forever and never wear out' is perhaps a bit too narrow.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 04:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 13, 2023, 11:40:03 amThe screw cap is not an 'industrial' solution, it is literally everywhere in common use because it does a specific job exceptionally well and it's use can be mastered by young and old.The rubber bung style used on bike lights is actually more inconvenient because it requires you to use your finger nail to lever it off. Something you can grab with two fingers is far easier to use.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 04:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on July 13, 2023, 04:00:22 pmScrew cap is easy to design too. Took me about half a day and most of that time was just learning how to make threads and searching for o-rings.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 04:13:31 pm
content: QuoteExactly. It only has to be good enough, not perfect. As I said, with screw caps I've had crossed threads, lost the cap, got annoyed by the tether catching on stuff (if there is one - see lost cap), etc. Sure, bungs can be hard to pull out (though Garmin seem to have that one solved) but that's just a shit example.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 04:22:03 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 13, 2023, 04:13:31 pmIf you use AAA then you dont usually have the cap off for long enough to lose it.How many iterations do you think it took Garmin to solve it? What is the cost and time for each iteration?I like 3D printing prototypes but have not had good results with 3D printed or molded 'rubber' in low cost, low quantity builds.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 04:32:01 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on July 13, 2023, 04:04:43 pmDepending on the application you might not even need an O ring. If you look at the construction of a modern fizzy drinks bottle you'll see that the seal is plastic on plastic with a simple wedge shape to provide the leverage. I know from experience that these can survive hundreds of cycles and still be airtight. Incidentally your average $0.10 PET plastic disposable fizzy drink bottle is far more durable than the vast majority of $10 SAN plastic 'sports bottles'. Perhaps those are made to fail as well.....

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 05:01:11 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on July 13, 2023, 04:22:03 pmIf you have AAA then there's no need for a USB cable so the choice of bung vs cap is irrelevant because a bung is inappropriate (very).QuoteNo idea, but I would prefer to buy a product that is designed to be used rather than one that is easy to make. If you're competing with other producers then you need to be better in some way, and being a bit more of a pain to use is not, I would suggest, 'better'.QuoteMy attempts at creating a microprocessor on a chip have been... not good. But I don't suggest that microprocessors on a chip are therefore bad, just that I've been crap at making them. If your 'rubber's have not been suitable, that isn't necessarily saying all rubbers are rubbish.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 02:54:24 am
content: Qi charging is very cheap, then no opening in the case is needed at all.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 09:23:09 am
content: That would be a decent solution

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 06:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 14, 2023, 09:23:09 amFor a bicycle light? It's way easier to bring a AA or AAA battery to the already-installed light than to remove the light and bring it inside to your charger.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 09:46:02 pm
content: Wouldn't lights normally be removed from the bike when unattended to prevent the need to purchase another set?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 12:30:21 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 14, 2023, 09:46:02 pmPerhaps, but not where I live.Regarding "Single person full product design", I'm doing this now as a hobby / business. I do miss having people who can handle the mech. eng., sales, and operations. But I'm keeping it small and targeted, so it's not too bad taking this on myself. Standardizing on a few simple enclosures makes the mech part easier, and designing so JLCPCB can do the PCB fab/assy helps with the operations part. I do a few final assy tasks as well as test and shipping). I'm worried that this will actually take off and I will need to find people and resources to handle the expansion...

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 03:57:58 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 14, 2023, 06:47:35 pmWhy add extra steps of removing the batteries from the device and putting them in the charger, then reversing the whole process? Qi charging is just a matter of placing the device on the charger, as simple as it gets until long range wireless charging becomes a thing.Also, a decent NiMH charger is fairly expensive, while lithium chargers are cheap thanks to economy of scale.

author: doobes
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 02:30:55 pm
content: NT

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 04:51:56 pm
content: NiHaoMike, reply #40:You can get multi-cell NiMH chargers for stacks of series cells. You can then have a wire which plugs in to a device to let such a chrarger be connected. Cell removal only happens when cells are worn out and old, that is when having the standard form factor helps, you can take them out and get new NiMH AAs to fit in their place. If you want a device to "last forever" you're better of focusing on easy replacement of parts with generically available spares, rather than attempting to have things which never wear out. Charging could also be done entirely with onboard circuitry, you'd use a wire, or an inductive coil system to simply supply 5V or 12V constant voltage, and inside the device the charger would convert this to the mroe specialised requirements of actually charging the cells. Again, cells would only come out individually if/when they wore out, for charging they'd remain inside and in series.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 04:59:22 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on July 11, 2023, 06:30:06 amVery few products are truly designed from the ground up. Almost everything is built from components. What you can do on your own, without subcontracting aspects, depends a lot on the product and your skills. For a bike lamp I think a good experienced plastics mould designer could cope with everything. Anyone not skilled in mould design is going to struggle with that part. For something that can use an off the shelf case, but has greater functional complexity, different people will probably be able to cope with the entire thing.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 11:07:36 pm
content: I'm assuming the question implies contract manufacturing and sourcing components when available. Otherwise there are an infinite list of show stoppers.. Are you making your own silicon wafers? Are you smelting your own iron? ....With that said..The short answer is yes, I've done consumer electronics devices from start to finish by myself.The long answer is that it took many many years to learn all the skills required there. It will almost always be quicker to marker to put together a team of specializations to do each thing. Solo is inefficient.Best advice if you want to do it all is to go work for a really small company where you have the opportunity to learn how to do everything. Get the experience on their dime.