Ebay unknown charge? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 08:59:15 am
content: I'm considering bidding on an item that has the "current bid" cost, "postage" cost to Australia and an "Import charges: To be provided at checkout".The latter has a little question mark that when you click saysQuoteThe terms and conditions link take to a page full oftextIt doesn't seem to mention the cost of this "3rd party service"...Any one seen this or know how much extra, if any, it is?

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 09:09:32 am
content: from the link you provided:QuoteSounds like a bunch of hooey, but I'm Canadian, and know nothing about Australian import laws. I've never been charged import fees on anything I've purchased on ebay.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 09:17:56 am
content: I bought a scope off agilents ebay store, they whacked on 10% gst for it but gave me a tax invoice for it. So it was all above board in my case.Is that what they mean?

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 09:21:45 am
content: I'm not sure, this item is currently at about $130... I'll be bailing well before it gets to $1000 which is when we start paying GST.I can't help but think that the seller has employed some third party to ship the item and they take care of everything for them. Probably free for the seller and the buyer cops the cost, but what on earth is the cost?

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 09:32:04 am
content: To me, it reads as if Pitney Bowes is the courier and that they are going to collect GST and any import duties on behalf of the government and that they will charge you an undisclosed fee for this service.DHL, Fedex etc do the same i.e. collect duties and taxes on entry to Australia on behalf of the government. Add quarantine to that as well.Not sure what the seller gets out of this other than the customs declaration they they would be required to provide to US authorities.Not telling you what the fee is until checkout is a bit suss.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 10:04:04 am
content: Here's what I've found when looking up"ebay global shipping program"QuoteFrom this text it seems that the amount next to Postage is an estimate of the total cost to the buyer.Might go ahead with it. If its a rip-off I'll grapple with ebay, seller, shipper and paypalI'll post updates if I win

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 11:05:59 am
content: This is ebay's new "global shipping program", which is sold to sellers as being really easy and great for customers, but which I have heard almost universally bad things from buyers.The seller ships the items to a US destination, and the items are then grouped with other items to be delivered to the destination country. The fees for this are not disclosed to the seller, or to the buyer until the payment is actually occurring.Beware. The majority of negative feedback I have heard about this service is that the fees were not disclosed up front and were much higher than anticipated.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 11:19:10 am
content: hmm I'm having second thoughts on going any higher with the bid now it went from 137 to 401 with 11 minutes left. Its a EDC CR103 I/V standard, like the one Dave has but with current also... ugh what to do

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 11:37:09 am
content: QuoteAnd I'll bet it's the sellers that get the negative feedback and poor DSRs - way to go ebay!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 11:55:18 am
content: I have seen this and realised that it was similar to my experiences with Fedex, I got the item, and then FedEx hit me with import and processing charges a month later :-(In a totally legal and compliant world this is normal practice and some couriers charge more than others when it comes to processing fees. As I feel sure many will be aware, if you buy goods from some countries they will declare them as either a low value 'gift' or other 'wheezes' to save you paying unfair processing charges. Of course this also avoids VAT, so is not to be condonedUSA citizens are very honest people and correctly declare an items value so you do get a bill from the UK post office or courier for VAT + processing fees. It is totally wrong to engage a third party in collecting the due taxes without first warning the bidder of what they face. In these cases there is zero chance of not getting billed for the taxes which should be considered as part of the buying price. I personally will not bid on any auction that has such undisclosed costs. A bargain can quickly become a major disappointment if the processing charge is high.I make no comment on whether paying taxes on personal imports is right or wrong, but it sure is a nice surprise when you don't

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 11:57:17 am
content: Well, I let it go at $401 The big beware notice scared me offPity really would of been interesting to find out if the final postage charge was close to the stated one.I wouldn't mind a couple of dollars in adjustment but wasn't willing to find out just in case it was a couple of hundred. Given that I've seen some items with postage of around $100 dollars and a similar item by some other seller with postage near $500!

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 12:00:26 pm
content: With regards to import duties, they should be the same wether the seller posts it or a 3rd party. For us in Oz there are no taxes on anything under $1000

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 12:05:35 pm
content: Rip Off Britain applies 20% VAT plus processing charges on anything coming from outside Europe of value greater than GBP15I have had to pay VAT plus GBP18 processing charge on an item from teh USA valued at GBP15.65 before

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 12:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on April 30, 2013, 12:05:35 pmDon't worry, we'll have the LIB's in power here soon and I'm sure they'll stick the boot in, after all we cant have the likes of Gerry Harvey tearing up on the 6 o'clock news because he's down to his last couple of million

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 03:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on April 30, 2013, 11:37:09 amAnd the problem with that is? It is the seller offering that shipping option. If the seller is too stupid to recognize that it is a bad service he deserves the negative feedback.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 04:03:06 pm
content: I asked the seller thisQuoteBefore I give you his reply here's a quote from the ebay under buyer chargesQuoteHere's their replyQuote

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 05:33:11 pm
content: I've been invited into the test phase too. I'll stick to shipping via UPS rather than some untried aggregation service.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 08:09:21 pm
content: Import duties are collected by the local courier. Its a bit of gamble which courier will handle the packet so the costs are unknown. For relatively cheap items the fee can be excessive so you should take that into account when ordering something from abroad.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 08:52:57 pm
content: Is it even legal, in any country, to bind someone into a contract without full disclosure?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 10:00:28 pm
content: QuoteNo, from my experience; but E-Bay is a self determining corporate that has done lot's of tweaks to there business model over recent years... it seems much more complicated for buyers in southern hemisphere.UK wise, and at present is reasonable; however for where I live in Jersey the Channel Islands, even UK sellers think I live in Europe ? thus, I have found more recently, having to E-Mail before a bid or purchase to get an understanding of the real post or shipping cost, down to UK levels that are the same for Jersey.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 12:04:59 pm
content: Quote from: vlf3 on April 30, 2013, 10:00:28 pmI've just checked and it is cheaper for me to send an oscilloscope to Denmark than it is to Jersey, however I can also remove the VAT from the purchase price to alleviate that.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 02:11:38 pm
content: @ KJDS... thank you for your time, that's good to know.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 06:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on April 30, 2013, 08:52:57 pmI feel a conspiracy theory coming up next... Quit the paranoia and do your homework. The seller simply can't check all the prices for every courier in the world. You can check the local couriers for the charges. The prices won't vary much because the most expensive one will lose business.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 02:07:54 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 01, 2013, 06:48:37 pmAre you normal!I read the terms and conditions, Googled the third party logistics company and contacted the supplier... Still no price!QuoteWTF!?!? The seller needs to check with just one! the one he has chosen to deliver his wares.QuoteHow on earth is this going to help. What's local to me is not local to him. At any rate I have no choice in the courier and can not get any info on what courier is used.QuoteThe level of naivety in this statement is beyond words...EgSeller No.1Postage $40.64Seller No.2Postage $891.05Same item

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 02:38:29 am
content: I've seen the same thing with the microscopes I'm looking at on eBay (precision*world). Slightly different models with freight charges anywhere from $40 to $350. Even then there is fine print about the "other charges". It's stopped me in my tracks for the moment until I can check it out some more.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 02:54:32 am
content: To ask the customer to commit to buying before the full charge is disclosed is unreasonable. I have not run into this yet, do they at least provide a way for the customer to withdraw after seeing the full and complete cost?If they don't provide a mean of backing out, this is not just unreasonable. This is stupid. If that is the case, it said something very negative about eBay: Do they think through what they do?

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 03:09:23 am
content: This whole "global shipping program" really makes me feel very unsettling as a seller. I just have this feeling that eBay will one day force this upon all international sellers and makes life hard for everybody. That will be the day international sellers and buyers can all say bye bye to eBay I guess...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 03:11:56 am
content: Quote from: iloveelectronics on May 02, 2013, 03:09:23 ameBay keeps turning up the heat on the poor frog they've locked into their pot. It doesn't complain much, but it will eventually die...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 03:18:37 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on May 02, 2013, 03:11:56 amThere is another 400 pound gorilla in the room: The US governmentThere is a push by the current administration to tax all internet transactions. It will really dampen US buyers should it come into play.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 03:22:40 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 02, 2013, 03:18:37 amYou give them way too much credit. Gorillas can figure out how to open a banana. The U.S. government, faced with such a daunting task, would simply make them illegal.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 03:31:25 am
content: Management of ebay is very strange. If you look at the ebay forums it becomes very disturbing, very fast. I was juest reading how a bunch of Australian sellers through Ebay Australia have had their sales figures drop by at least 50% this month and believe Ebay Australia has changed something... I have had weird experiences with the ebay search engine and what it shows and doesn't. It's not like the google search where you have to go to page 29 to find something obscure, on ebay it just comes to an end and nothing more!Quote from: Rick Law on May 02, 2013, 02:54:32 amAs far as I can tell, currently the only way to find that out is to go ahead with the purchase. The bank account I have tied in with paypal is a debit one which I transfer money into if I want to purchase something. I can leave it empty, go through the process and transfer money into it only if "the price is right"

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 06:46:24 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz link=topic=16455.msg226245#msg226245Careful - you may not be able to back out of the purchase. A while back (at least 12+ months), I was able to see if that supplier will do combined shipment of multiple items with reduce shipping cost by clicking buy BUT not finish all the way through on the items I want to check.I tried that same trick again a couple of months ago, the two item I "buy but not finished clicking through" stayed on as "purchases I have not yet paid" and I can't get rid of it. I ended up buying that two items. It was merely dollar or two more than I would have paid without combined shipment, but I was using that to decide if I get both items or just the one I really need and the other one is just something neat that I really don't needRick.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 07:07:43 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 02, 2013, 06:46:24 amYou should be able ask the seller to cancel the item(s) and resolve the matter. No penalty on either party as far as I know. Seller should be able to do that using the “buyer purchased by mistake” reason.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 07:16:37 am
content: This happened to me last week.I clicked buy but it said I had to get postage cost details from the seller who I thought had said free delivery (large local item). Without finalising payment I clicked back on the browser a couple of times to get back to the original add. It was free delivery so to get back to the payment page I clicked buy again.Next thing I knew I was being charged for 2 items ($200 ea!). I quite the buy process without finalising payment, contacted the seller how happily cancelled the second purchase

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 08:45:29 am
content: I've had that problem too...mainly due my slow internet connection, any page up-date does-not refresh !and by the time it has, or timed-out frustration is well set-in.Lot's of hassle and aggravation, to do just the basics; but I am stuck with a high service charge, and slow providerin a limited Island network, where the high speeds go to the finance industry.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 06:41:04 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on May 02, 2013, 02:07:54 amThere is a difference between the shipping costs, the fee for processing the customs forms and the import taxes. It seems you don't understand that if you want something shipped fast (UPS and Fedex are specialized in next day delivery) then you pay a lot of money. If you choose a slower way of sending it then the postage costs will be lower. You'll still have to pay for customs processing and import duties. In many cases you can ask a seller to use their country's postal service to reduce the shipping costs.I buy lots of stuff from Ebay from all over the world. In many cases the postal companies work together. If someone sends a parcel to me with USPS (US postal service) it is delivered to me by TNT or DHL. There is no way of telling which one so the seller can't tell me what the customs processing fee will be.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 07:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 04, 2013, 06:41:04 pmYou still haven't got it. This is not about taxes and customs.This is about an obscure company, with the help of eBay, asking for a blank cheque for the shipping, making up all kinds of fantasy fees.Here is a list of fees they ask the buyer to commit to, up front. Apparently without being able to inform the buyer upfront about the amount of the fees.Compare all this to the fees the post office takes, commonly known as postage, and the typical fees from FedEx or UPS, you start to get the idea that this obscure company operates on a whole new level of ripping off people. They even have the gals to pass the commission they have to pay eBay to the buyer ...QuoteIf that is too much text to read for you, well, the whole agreement the buyer is supposed to blindly commit to is even longer.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 12:18:14 am
content: They may as well give the Excel formula for the fee amount:=RAND(0,209.99)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 03:26:03 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on May 04, 2013, 07:21:47 pmYup, exactly. This is nuts to ask a buyer to commit to a fee of unknown amount. There is nothing eBay can sell that I would commit to buying before knowing the total.I wonder what is eBay's cut..."I know not what others may do, but as for me, give me free shipping, or give me..." ah never mind, I wont die over it.Rick

author: Dr.Fiero
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 05:47:33 am
content: Screw the fees issue. It's the service that sucks beyond belief!I've now ended up getting two things that went out with this absurd (dis)service.It takes almost as long to get from the seller to Kentucky, as it does to me! I figure its been double what a similar distance has taken in the past.Not to mention I'm now ASSURED of paying full duty and taxes on small items that would have been just pushed aside before (its like when you cross the border with $75 or whatever of tools, it's not worth the customs services time to haul you in and spend all that time to collect $4 or whatever in fees.)I'm making sure to never order anything off eBay that ships only that way now.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 07:11:56 am
content: I wonder how many sellers are going to go belly-up because of this stupid experiment. Add to that, if Obama manages to impose tax on all internet transactions done in the USA, wooow, not sure if eBay-USA can exist after such new tax law is passed. Perhaps eBay2.0, at 1/10 the old size...Rick

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 04:50:32 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on May 04, 2013, 07:21:47 pmAny link to an Ebay listing?

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 03:12:36 am
content: Here's oneUnderneath Postage you have "Import charges: To be provided at checkout"

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 04:12:00 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on May 06, 2013, 03:12:36 amFollowing your link, a few clicks later, I got to the "eBay Global Shipping Program Buyer Terms & Conditions" page:http://pages.ebay.com.au/shipping/globalshipping/buyer-tnc.htmlAfter reviewing my commitment as buyer, there is little chance I personally would buy anything that uses this service.Rick

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 08:13:45 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 02, 2013, 06:46:24 amYou should have read the item pages and the various warnings popping up during the buying process more closely. If a BIN item is listed as "requires immediate payment" then you can click BUY but the purchase os only made after you actually paid for the item. However, if the item is not listed as requiring immediate payment, clicking on BUY means you have actually bought it.

author: RCMR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 08:22:24 am
content: Wow, this is the equivalent of handing over a blank cheque at the checkout and inviting eBay to write whatever figure they want on it before it's cashed.No way Jose'!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 08:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on May 06, 2013, 03:12:36 amThis seems like a perfectly normal listing to me. Shipping costs with USPS are about US $56 to my country and US $63 to Australia. The import charges are always unknown to the seller. Over here even the customs office doesn't really know what tarif to apply to equipmentOn an oscilloscope with a CRT screen they should charge 21% VAT but on an oscilloscope with a TFT screen they should charge VAT plus 1.5% import duties. Go figure...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2013, 11:12:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 06, 2013, 08:59:46 pmIt is perfectly normal alright, except thefinal cost to the buyer is unknown- "to be determined". By buying, you "signed the blank check" and committed to pay whatever the import charge will be. Further more,all the risk is on YOU.Per the terms and conditionspublished, the shipper (Pitney and their selected 3rd party) has thepower of attorney as designated by you as your agent. And per the terms and condition,you already agreed to pay whatever amount is due. Let me repeat:whatever amount is due - no upper limit.Case 1:Let just say for the time being that it is a case of an innocent mistake....You got something for 1504 dollars and 10 cents.In theUSA, our standard expression is1,504.10In some parts ofEurope, their expression is1.500,10The comma and decimal are swapped.Now let say you order something 15 dollars and 40 cents, it is written15,40Okay, someone read quickly and see1540(thinking it is1,540with a misplaced comma) and proceed to calculate your tax say at 20% for $308.As stated in the terms, you already designated them (Pitney and 3rd party) the power of attorney. They paid on your behalf. You further already agreed to pay them back. Who are you going to go for your money back?All the risk is on YOU. Pitney (& 3rd party) got their money, the government got their tax, your credit card got the transaction charge, you agreed to giving them the power of attorney to pay and charge you, who is going to fight for you?You will have a hard time finding a lawyer for less than $308. So, have fun.Case two:Because of dumping of certain items by certain countries... A new law is passed (or an executive order) to stop dumping, a punitive import tax is imposed... now 250% for below $100 and 500% for over $100.Outcome 1: Yeah, sure, no problem, I knew that - I spend 27 hours a day reading all the silly laws passed by the authorities. Besides, I check all 500,000 pages of federal regulation before I buy an item on eBay... Right, sure.Outcome 2: Holy Cow, what is this $2000 charge on my credit card. Call the card company... they did the investigation, they found thatYOU willingly purchased an item with high tax, and YOU agreed to paid whatever amount due, so what can you say as the problem with the charge?You committed to have someone write the check with your name and sign the check for you.Someone without any constrains on the upper amount, and someone without any incentive to put a cap on the upper limit... I found plenty of problem with that!Rick

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 01:01:25 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 06, 2013, 11:12:31 pmHmm, now I see there is a difference between the shipping method when switching from NL to Australia. Ebay is doing something very weird indeed. IMHO its time to complain because someone at Ebay clearly got lobotomised before he/she came up with the global shipping program. Perhaps Ebay wants a piece of the action from the forwarding companies which provide an address in the US for sellers which only ship inside the US (which are only a few BTW). When asked most sellers are very willing to send items to other countries unless they specifically state they only ship local in the description. Anyway, I'd skip the whole global shipping program and contact the seller directly. That saves the seller the Ebay charges and you're still covered by Paypal (for what its worth).

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 06:02:35 am
content: Gets a little weirder each time, now they have added "$0, to be confirmed at checkout" There are no import duties on items under $1000 to Australia (AFAIK)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 08:23:12 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on May 07, 2013, 06:02:35 amThere are two issues:(1) you don't know the total until after you commit to buy. At the time of commit, you are guessing their fees and duties. The fees charged by Pitney and the 3rd party they select.(2) you don't really know the import duty (since this is before import paper filing). At one point in the Terms and Condition, they say the number they shown at check out is inclusive. At another point, they say they will file the papers but you are responsible for all charges. What if the numbers change after the filing? Are you suppose to take a check book with to customs to pay up what they under paid? The TAC is unclear.Think of it as taking a taxi - well, I will drive you part way, I wont tell you how much my drive will cost you. After I take you part way, I will select a friend of mine to drive you the rest of the way, and I wont tell you how much my buddy will charge you. Also, you are responsible for all tolls and I wont tell you what toll bridge, toll tunnel, or toll road I will take. But sign here first and get in my taxi, we will figure out along the way.Would you get in that taxi?Buying things from eBay is not like buying a Patak (watch) - if you have to ask how much that Patak is, it is too expensive for you. Likely you are like me and many others - buying from eBay to safe some money. If you take the that taxi to try to save the cost of renting a car, that is a lot of risk and likely very little saving.For me, I will not get into that taxi and head over to car rentals.Rick

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 09:00:26 am
content: It's normal for the buyer to be asked to pay import tax separate from the item. There's no reasonable way that a seller can know what level of import tax will be charged on every widget they sell to every country. What isn't reasonable is to leave the customs handling charge in an unknown state and I believe that is the case.One of the few good things about the EU is that it removes these issues for selling within the community so intercountry business is much easier. I daren't start typing the bad things. ...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2013, 02:16:33 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on May 07, 2013, 09:00:26 amWhile I am reacting more strongly than you are,, I agree with you 100% . They can't know the tax/duty as that is not in their control. However, the shipping service fee is in their control. That they don't want to show the fee to the customer until after the customer committed is the major issue here. That smacks me as a lack of respect to the customer. An attitude of "You want to buy from me, do it my way or get lost." With that kind of an attitude, how am I to expect you Mr. Service Provider to handle my stuff carefully and correctly?Tax is what it is. Want different tax rates? Elect different politicians. Service provider is who they are. Want different service (attitude), buy services from someone else. I just don't like their attitude. That's all.Rick