Is DeepSeek R1 AI a Sputnik Moment?  Tech Stocks Crashing - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Altair8800
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2025, 11:52:08 pm
content: Curious on what your thoughts about DeepSeek R1 true Open Source AI. Looks like China let the AI source code genie out of the bag and giving the source code (not only that but the details on how they did it) to the world for free.Because they were severely limited by sanctions to high end CPU's/GPU's/Dedicated AI PU's they concentrated more on the code and algorithms. (Aside, reminds me how some programmers were able to get ZX81's, Spectrums, V20's, GameBoy's, etc. to do some rather impressive stuff with such relatively low-grade hardware)...Because they were able to create a very top-level AI with hardware costing less than $6 Million USD (which just about every government in the world can afford), this will spread AI more around the world. They say that DeepSeek AI will be 1/27th (cost of?) of OpenAI, but even if it is only 1 order of magnitude decrease difference (1/10th the cost) that significantly lowers the Cost of Entry.In US tech stocks are crashing (looks like about a Trillion USD in market value has been wiped out with NVidia, Oracle, Broadcom, TSMC being hit the most).Here is a video from Fireship that kind of sums it up.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 12:16:03 am
content: I say "Good!" to this.About time the AI hubris of the "west" was brought down a notch or three.Goddamn! Chinese open-source AI!

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 12:18:41 am
content: Here'sMoon of Alabama's take on this momentous happening. Probably a POV many of you here won't otherwise get.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 12:49:12 am
content: It's not really similar to Sputnik in the space race, it's not like it's outperforming o1.It's just making other open weight developers look very sloppy in efficiency. It was always obvious MoE and low precision training was the way forward, though perhaps it had not been quite as obvious how important base model efficiency would become for architectural exploration and training for test time compute. Efficiency was an unrecognized force multiplier.It's going to play havoc on the business model of OpenAI and Anthropic. Some people speculate that was intended. I choose to believe the Deepseek boss is somewhat eccentric in releasing so much data.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 01:16:29 am
content: NVidia got a -17% hit, but its market value had gone completely idiotic anyway. It's not even a healthy correction, it's barely a dent.Not sure this frenzy is gonna end well.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 01:40:05 am
content: It is not really open source, open weights at best. And loss of inflated and meaningless market value is not a big deal, they'll pump it back up.More competition is always good. And that Open AI dude talks a big game, if he has something, he will be first again. If not, hopefully they crash and burn and stop being so obnoxious.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 02:03:41 am
content: Two emperors with no clothes, one exposed, the other still not feeling the heat.The output from the LLMs to date has been interesting at best. The fact that these models were being to automate some peoples jobs was less an example of how powerful AI is than a demonstration oh how simple some jobs really are. No thought at all required.Now the highly pumped valuations in the US will go away.There is no reason to expect the Chinese AI to be any better. And will be less useful to them than it is to the US and other western economies. Because their low end labor is much cheaper the savings from automating those low value added jobs will be smaller.If anyone does come up with true AI it is likely to come from a different direction than the LLMs. And who knows who has the lead, if such a thing can even be defined and measured?

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 02:22:20 am
content: The resultd by DeepSeek are really astonishing and they have truly innovated in many aspects.Still something to clarify though:Quote from: Altair8800 on January 27, 2025, 11:52:08 pmThis number gets misquoted all the time. The origin is page 5 in this document:https://arxiv.org/pdf/2412.19437v1It is the (hourly) rental cost for GPUs for a single training run for DeepSeek V3, a predecessor of DeepSeek R1.This number does not include buying the hardware, paying for experiments, wages, data preparation, testing, roll out, deployment etc. And it also does not include the cost for R1, the reasoning model that the frenzy is about.So it is taken completely out of context. This is as if you equated the cost of building a prototype with the entire development project cost.Quote from: Altair8800 on January 27, 2025, 11:52:08 pmIts about the price, not the cost. OpenAI is currently trying all kinds of tricks to push the price of their AI models up as much as possible. This is not correlated to the actual compute cost.Well, it's good that someone put an end to this...

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 04:35:10 am
content: Quote from: Altair8800 on January 27, 2025, 11:52:08 pmWhat is Llama?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:23:37 am
content: lolhttps://it.slashdot.org/story/25/01/27/1615256/deepseek-says-service-degraded-due-to-large-scale-malicious-attack

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:49:28 am
content: Heh; asking it (DeepSeek) about Tiananmen Square blows it's little brain:https://x.com/benhylak/status/1882521144827531333?s=46&mx=2

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:54:05 am
content: So does asking ChatGPT about Palestine and Israel. Companies will always follow the written and unwritten laws of their jurisdiction. It is a matter of staying in business.If the thing is really 10x better on general topics that people actually need day to day, it will win.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:55:57 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 28, 2025, 05:54:05 amExcept the link I gave shows that this isn't just about censorship: it shows how the app loses its mind and goes into a weird loop if asked about this subject. (Which may be a side effect of censorship, but kind of a hilarious one.)

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:06:35 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 28, 2025, 05:49:28 amDaisy, Daisy ...

author: amwales
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 08:28:57 am
content: I am very confused, meta released llama to the public quite some time ago, you can download it locally to your computer and run it, they made the binaries available for windows so anyone can use it, I haven't looked at deepseek yet but I'm guessing its the same idea, you download the application and run it locally. Am I missing something here? Is it simple the case that deepseek is easier for the tech illiterate to run that unclothed the emperor?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 08:58:43 am
content: I know it differently. Elon Musk was the one that sponsored an open source version of AI, couple of years ago (and not in China). The open AI was a response to closed source AI.The idea behind his move was that AI is a game changer (I'll say, for weapons in particular), so it should be open for everybody, to keep the world in balance (just like in the zero-sum game for nukes). Plus, the hope that an open AI movement will benefit his products (mostly neuralink and self-driving cars).This is exactly the kind of actions that brings him online hate campaigns.The established power only wants more power, while he wants a better world, and dare to disobey in order to get what he wants. It's a surprise nobody talks about existing open source AI, but get surprised there is one from China. Don't know wht open means for AI. The problem with the AI is different from other software. It's not the source code that makes the difference, it's the training data.Anyway, I don't trust news with AI generated content, like the linked video, didn't watch it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 10:37:44 am
content: QuoteRubbish, sorry. His skin is too thin (pretty much translucently thin) and what he actually craves is recognition of his greatness. Sure, he has done (and is doing) great things, but it's to have bigger and better toys, not improve the world for everyone else.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 10:44:22 am
content: Quote from: Altair8800 on January 27, 2025, 11:52:08 pmNothing's for free, especially if it comes from China. It's already showing significant flaws and is just as dangerous, if not more-so, than any number of Chinese technologies out there.The hype is just that... hype.Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm lumping it in the trash with the likes of TikTok, Huawei, Hikvision, BYD, and all the other garbage that China hasstolen... sorry "developed".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 10:54:58 am
content: Its hardly a sputnik moment. Sputnik started a period of massive spending to catch up. This sounds more like the start of people spending a lot less money.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 10:58:29 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 28, 2025, 05:49:28 amI don't know if that is real or fake, but I have watched a couple of short videos by people who downloaded the open source stuff, tried running it locally, and tried asking questions like that. They reported very reasonable answers, and wondered whether the versions running remotely would too.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 11:00:07 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 28, 2025, 10:54:58 amOr so you think.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 11:09:07 am
content: If it weren't for its example predecessors, with online explanations of how LLM were designed and trained, and available GPUs to do the training, DeepSeek would not exist. The fact that it cost a fraction to create and train should not be anything special to anyone. The engineers, R&D, and earlier hardware used to create the first LLMs are expected to cost magnitudes more than copying the state of the art years later.For now, at least, it looks like LLM and existing hardware alone is not a route to achieve true AGI. If anything, this case may slow down the funds necessary to develop the first true AGI and that may be a good thing.This may also cut funds from where other types of AI research can do other good useful things like simulation of protein synthesis and protein folding. However, I do not expect the larger public investors to make such a distinction.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 11:25:30 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on January 28, 2025, 11:09:07 amLLM is nothing at all like AGI. It's a good way to look up historical and reference material.It's a librarian who doesn't just use index cards but has actually read all the books.Q: do they include, say, a 1985 Britannica in the training set?(I own a lovely hardcover copy that someone was once throwing out)

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 12:17:26 pm
content: First it came to Manufacturing cheap PCB's with JLCPCB, then we get better part prices from LCSC, and we could see the good Chinese manufactures like gowin, wch-ic, espressif etc... guys can't you see it, it's done! every thing can be done way cheaper in china, and it all starts from cheaper mechanical parts, then electronics and finally software, so my guess is chines companies would win big time.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 12:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 28, 2025, 11:25:30 amThey are just the fanciest pattern matching machines to date. Weiner filters on steroids, if you like. What we call creativity and true intelligence appear to be a bit more than that. Its hard to tell if the brain just got to the stage where a higher layer emerged from an increasingly sophisticated pattern matching machine, or if the brain is not 100% a pattern matcher. It does appear to be some important step away from a LLM.Quote from: brucehoult on January 28, 2025, 11:25:30 amIts more like a librarian on acid, who read the canon of printed works between trips.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 01:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 28, 2025, 12:20:29 pmHere is something I came up with once. It became an instruction in the RISC-V Zbb extension. To the best of my knowledge, and the research we did in the working group, there is no historical precedent for this operation.I'd like to see an LLM do that.https://github.com/riscv/riscv-bitmanip/issues/41

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 01:13:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 28, 2025, 10:58:29 amI tried this myself (deepseek-r1:14b on a NUC without accelerated GPU)The first responses were not too bad; albeit a bit careful.But when asking right out how many died on tiananmen square an answer was refused.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 01:23:07 pm
content: Quote from: woody on January 28, 2025, 01:13:50 pmWhy did you ask "how many people died on tiananmen square?"? We know what you intended, but its a very vague question. TianAnMen square is a very historic place, and I'm sure there have been numerous highly violent incidents there over the centuries. Why were you not more specific?

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 02:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 28, 2025, 01:23:07 pmGood question. Probably my inexperience with LLMs, as asking a search engine the very same question got me immediately to the Wikipedia page about the 1989 protests and massacre (Wikipedia's definition, not mine). Although Deepseek could have told me it needed more info when it was in doubt about my intentions.So I asked a more specific question and got a not too unreasonable answer that opened the door for many more detailed questions. Which I am not going to ask, afraid as I am of melting down the tiny NUC

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 04:22:50 pm
content: How Deepseek was made.My previous post was basically right.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 04:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on January 28, 2025, 10:37:44 amIndeed. Only things Musks wants are to earn more money, become more crazy and get burried on Mars (the planet).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on January 28, 2025, 04:22:50 pmNo. Your guesses align with his guesses.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:24:55 pm
content: Quote from: tim_ on January 28, 2025, 02:04:47 pmI may be an old fart, but historically I've recognised significant things before the vast majority of youngsters and been a bleeding edge adopter.For example when Steve Jobs showed the first iPhone most commentators were "this is crap, it's expensive, it doesn't do what my blackberry does, it doesn't even have a keyboard" etc etc. But I knew in that hour that the world had just changed forever, I got an iPhone sent from the USA to NZ as soon as humanly possible (they weren't sold or supported here until the 3G, and needed jailbreaking simply to make them work on a NZ carrier), started writing apps using reverse-engineered information, etc.As a more recent example, I recognised that RISC-V had a chance to be the future of computing early on, downloaded and studied early ISA manuals, bought the first shipping Arduino-style hardware in December 2016 and did some hacks with it e.g.I then set out to leave a very nice job with Samsung R&D and join those upstarts at SiFive, which happened over the following Christmas break.I'm not going to enumerate other big things that I was into early, while everyone else was pooh-poohing them.Or all the things that the press and speculators have gone crazy over but were clearly (to me) overhyped and empty.I can't say I've never been wrong, never missed something big, never gotten into something that fizzled ... but don't give me that "stuck in your old ways..." bs. That's just lazy and not an argument or evidence of your claims.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 28, 2025, 10:54:58 amThat's certainly what the NVDA investors seem to be thinking. However, if someone had predicted in the 1950s that demand for electricity would fall since computers could now be built from transistors instead of vacuum tubes, we'd still be laughing at them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 28, 2025, 05:24:55 pmWow, that was amazing insight. Apple took the path that HTC had, but didn't do a deal with the devil (MS) that held them back. The only bold step Apple took was to use a cap touch screen. HTC had a couple of cap touch screen models, but they were costing them a fortune, and had serious reject rates. Apple took a gamble that it was pointless starting with a resistive touch screen, and if things worked out they could make cap touch plummet in cost. I suspect a key factor in the original iPhone being only 2G was to limit their market for a year or so, while they sorted out the cost of the screen.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 28, 2025, 05:24:55 pmAnyone with a three-digit IQ -- the CEO of Microsoft excepted -- could see that the iPhone was going to win. Sure, the first one was lame, but it was also the worst one that would ever be built. The multitouch UI offered a feature that no other mobile devices had: room for improvement.There seems no reason to speculate about the nature and limitations of AI, or to impose prejudices and constraints on it, when no one can even define the 'I' part uncontroversially. My own takeaway isn't so much that the algorithms are more interesting than expected, but that human brains are less interesting than expected. It seems obvious that the two machines are doing the same thing, with the brain using 1000x the connectivity at 1/1000000000 the speed... and that artificial intelligence still has room for improvement while the natural kind does not.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on January 28, 2025, 05:39:16 pmHTC and others had multitouch before the iPhone. However, it required a cap touch screen to do it well, and those were in limited supply. The resistive ones struggled to do the job, although there were some not very good multitouch ones around.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 05:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 28, 2025, 05:43:30 pmRight, it's all about synergy. Even a nice capacitive multitouch UI isn't an automatic game-winner if you don't have an OS to go with it, or if your Jedi powers are too weak to force the mobile carriers to let you make the most of it.A lot of people backing Sam Altman are doing so because they think he's the next Steve Jobs. We'll see.

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 28, 2025, 05:24:55 pmFair enough, by no means I was trying to doubt your judgement in any way!But I feel compelled to react to seeing the all-to-common tropes that are being posted all the time in the maker community. ("markov-chain", "fancy autocomplete", "it can just repeat things it saw before" etc..) Things are moving and what we are seeing in R1,O1,O3 is indeed the beginning of a new paradigm in GenAI based on RL and test time scaling.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:11:48 pm
content: Anyone remember when chinese researchers proudly announced they had made their first DSP, back in 2006?Hanxin Fraud"Controversy surrounding a top Chinese scientist accused of faking research into microprocessors highlights the pressure placed on researchers to help their country catch up with the West, experts say.Chen Jin, dean of the microelectronics school at Shanghai Jiaotong University in Shanghai, was sacked for falsifying research into digital signal processing (DSP) computer chips, state media announced on 12 May.According to China’s Xinhua news agency, Chen was fired after a two-month investigation revealed that he and colleagues conducted fraudulent research. The investigation also discovered that a simple digital signal processing chip developed by Chen, called the Hanxin I, could not perform the tasks he had claimed.The investigation began after someone posted a message to an internet message board accusing Chen of fraud."Turned out, it was a blacktopped Freescale {DSP56800 as I recall} for the demo'sI wouldn't take DeepSeek seriously until it's vetted, after the New Years celebrations of course...

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 28, 2025, 05:43:30 pmThat was essential, but nowhere near enough.The iPhone was able to maintain a high frame rate on the UI without glitches. Another big feature was Apple's insistence (and leading by example) that apps must be able to be killed by the OS and then restarted in the exact same UI state they had been in when killed.And the pièce de résistance was the simulation of physical inertia when you scrolled and took your finger off while still moving. That was something absolutely new and transformed the feel of the device.

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:15:37 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on January 28, 2025, 05:39:16 pmEven Nokia knew, according to this recentely disclosed presentation:https://repo.aalto.fi/uncategorized/IO_926740c7-5165-439a-a020-5205aeb4d4d5/Quote from: KE5FX on January 28, 2025, 05:39:16 pmWhat it needs is a rational discussion. And the field is moving so fast that arguments from 6 months ago may be completely baseless nowadays.There are obvious big gaps between what humans can do and what AI can do, topics that are not addressed in any way: Agency, grounding, consciusness.Things where GenAI is getting increasing closer to humans: Solving of problems in text form with a closed and verifiable solution. (Want to see an llm trip over: Ask for the solution of a problem that does not have any)

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 28, 2025, 06:11:48 pmI probably should not even react to this...Replication of DeepSeek V3 MoE approach from today:https://qwenlm.github.io/blog/qwen2.5-max/Reproduction of R1 training pipeline (wip):https://github.com/huggingface/open-r1Successful replication of RL approach:https://github.com/Jiayi-Pan/TinyZeroChina today is not china from 2007.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: tim_ on January 28, 2025, 06:00:51 pmYou can't win an argument with someone who doesn't mind being wrong. That's whatItry to tell myself when confronted with people who still say things like that, but ...QuoteThese things are inadequately defined, so there's no point quibbling over them.QuoteThat's fixable, probably with the usual "universal solvent" in the engineering world: a feedback loop.You can already see signs of it in the CoT output from R1.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: tim_ on January 28, 2025, 06:20:18 pmThanks. There's a huge amount of noise around this in the press, and it's hard to know if the "claims that its latest AI model, R1, performs on a par with those of OpenAI, despite using less advanced computer chips and consuming less energy" is bonafide.

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:27:19 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on January 28, 2025, 06:20:28 pmYes, its capable of self correcting. That capability is extremely hard to teach with normal SFT based on human generated input. Strangely enough, when trained on R1 output, other models are able to learn the CoT. It's as if R1 speaks the language of llms. Utterly fascinating and very subtle things going on there.o1 is able to decide that a problem is not solvable, R1 doesn't do so well. But I guess they'll fix that in the next iteration. The non-reasoning models are quite bad at it.

author: Altair8800
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 06:58:25 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on January 28, 2025, 08:58:43 amI think you are referring to my original post video (I could not easily find other videos)? The video by popular YouTuber Fireship (3.8 M subscribers) is not AI generated. In watching the video, one would easily note there were lots of quips, jabs, sarcasm, jokes, personal opinion, criticism, wicked connections, etc.Now if that video was AI Generated, then we should all be Very Very Afraid!Maybe the AI singularity has already occurred and we didn't notice it.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 07:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: Altair8800 on January 28, 2025, 06:58:25 pmAmong other things, R1 isunusually good at creative writingof just that sort. Read the first short story; once you get past the creaky opening paragraph, it's scary how witty it is.Quote

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 07:34:13 pm
content: Quote from: tim_ on January 28, 2025, 06:15:37 pmInteresting presentation.Still pretty complacent. They seemed quite sure that Apple would need a cheaper "iPhone mini" to get traction. That never happened. The maximum was the original model getting discounted when a better model came out -- not as a limited time "run out", but permanently.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 07:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 28, 2025, 06:11:48 pmApparently it has already been tested and vetted, and found to be all that it claims to be.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 08:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 28, 2025, 07:34:13 pm"User interface has been a big strength for Nokia, so the UI may be the biggest threat that iPhone presents"The Nokia interface sucked. HTC had done so much to improve WinPhone it was way ahead of Nokia, and Nokia didn't seem to wake up to the stock WinPhone UI no longer being the key competition well before the iPhone launched. The best that HTC had was generally only available in East Asia, so globally most people never really saw the state of the art before the iPhone launched. They only saw what western telcos picked up from HTC and rebranded, which tended to focus on their cheapest, rather than their best."Expect Apple to launch lower-price point models"Interesting that this point comes just after pointing out the lack of 3G and a crude camera. It seems like they should have been expecting a higher end model as Apple's high priority."Evaluate iPhone’s potential in Asia where touchscreen UI has the most practical direct implications"Well, at least they got that right. Its one of the reason HTC did so well in East Asia.I think Nokia was too locked into the idea of a highly segmented market needing products to hit many price points, and tight relationships with carriers. Both of which proved to be of little value to them.

author: Altair8800
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 10:06:33 pm
content: OK, I was bit impressed with DeepSeek R1 results.I'm auditing a Personal Financial Class. We had an assignment that we actually did in class with the professor giving us the correct results. So, when I got back home, I asked DeepSeek R1 to replicate the professors reply and it was able to do so 100% correctly.It was in an Excel spreadsheet, so I basically just copied from Excel and pasted in DeepSeek web search textbox.The original results were correct, but format not the best. I then asked DeepSeek to rearrange it to better format and it was able to do it.One good thing to note, in its current state DeepSeek, is much easier to Copy/Paste Results. One thing really annoying about ChatGPT or Copilot is that the HTML code they generate kind of makes it hard to copy/paste a large section (anybody else notice this?). I often like to copy/paste into OneNote replies for future reference...So in attached PDF, 1st page is Class Notes with Correct Answers. Following pages DeepSeek's results and then DeepSeek change of format request results.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 03:07:13 am
content: I tested it and I must say that I'm impressed so far - it seems to do better than current alternatives. Not necessarily hugely better, but enough to make it noticeable. So far at least.I first asked a few technical questions about RF communication and the answers were generally correct. Not completely different from what ChatGPT gives, but overall a bit more complete.Then I asked it to analyze a Python function (just from the Python code, giving otherwise zero hint) - the one that I posted on the Programming forum for formatting a string in a specific way. It did pretty well, here is what it returned:QuoteThe analysis is basically correct. The examples, though, are not all correct in the output it gives.I tried it in ChatGPT. The analysis it gives is very similar, even a bit more detailed. It only gives one example of usage though (with a correct output).Then I directly asked "What is the output of StrFormat(1.23456, 8 ) ?" (which DeepSeek gets wrong in its list of examples), in both.Both DeepSeek and ChatGPT correctly analyzed the execution and gave the correct answer.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 09:14:15 am
content: My first impression is -Spent the last evening/night with it.I have not received a single answer (from various sectors of my interests and hobbies, sometimes pretty tricky ones) I would consider of low quality, wrong or misleading.Pretty cool thing, the DS, indeed.. Especially the DeepThinkR1 reasoning, once it printed out perhaps 30 pages A4, good reading, btw..PS: one of my last questions was "whether I shall start to buy the NVIDIAs shares tomorrow"..It politely answered it does not provide an advisory services on financial operations related to the investments..

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 10:28:51 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 28, 2025, 08:19:17 pmYou missed the context. The document was from January 2007 and in that they already admitted that Nokia already fell behind in UI. When talking about strength, they refer to something pre-2005 or so. Those very simple interfaces, with SMS typing and snake game etc. HTC and Windows phones are utterly irrelevant.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 11:11:03 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 29, 2025, 10:28:51 amThe document is from 2007 and Nokia had been way behind for several years at that point, clinging onto the idea that Symbian was the crown jewels. Pre 2005 HTC was already well ahead. In East Asia Nokia was still huge for their robust and reliable low end products. At the high end they never made a dent.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 11:43:54 am
content: I give it AD7606C data sheet and asked to write a Verilog deriver to load internal registers with default values so I can easily change them If I needed it, also I asked to extract adc data in separate buses with a single valid line and I told it to assume that I have applied an external sampling clock, it generated this Verilog code, and my PCB is not arrived yet, so I can not confirm it's working or not, But it seems it has done it correctly!checkout the Verilog codeCode:module ad7606c_driver #(parameter CLK_FREQ = 50_000_000, // FPGA clock (50 MHz)parameter SPI_CLK_FREQ = 25_000_000 // SPI clock (25 MHz))(input wire clk,input wire reset_n,// ADC interfaceoutput reg cs_n,output reg sclk,output reg sdi,input wire sdo,input wire busy,// Data outputsoutput reg [15:0] ch0_data, ch1_data, ch2_data, ch3_data,output reg [15:0] ch4_data, ch5_data, ch6_data, ch7_data,output reg data_valid);// SPI clock divider (50 MHz / (2*25 MHz) = 1)localparam SPI_DIVIDER = CLK_FREQ / (2 * SPI_CLK_FREQ);// Register initialization (40 R/W registers)localparam INIT_REG_COUNT = 40;localparam [15:0] INIT_REGS [0:INIT_REG_COUNT-1] = '{// Format: {8'hAddress, 8'hData}// Core Configuration16'h02_08, // CONFIG: STATUS_HEADER=116'h03_33, // RANGE_CH1_CH2: ±10V16'h04_33, // RANGE_CH3_CH416'h05_33, // RANGE_CH5_CH616'h06_33, // RANGE_CH7_CH816'h07_00, // BANDWIDTH: Full16'h08_00, // OVERSAMPLING: None// Channel Gains (0x09-0x10)16'h09_00, 16'h0A_00, 16'h0B_00, 16'h0C_00,16'h0D_00, 16'h0E_00, 16'h0F_00, 16'h10_00,// Channel Offsets (0x11-0x18)16'h11_80, 16'h12_80, 16'h13_80, 16'h14_80,16'h15_80, 16'h16_80, 16'h17_80, 16'h18_80,// Phase Calibration (0x19-0x20)16'h19_00, 16'h1A_00, 16'h1B_00, 16'h1C_00,16'h1D_00, 16'h1E_00, 16'h1F_00, 16'h20_00,// Diagnostics (0x21-0x24)16'h21_01, // DIGITAL_DIAG_ENABLE16'h22_00, // DIGITAL_DIAG_ERR16'h23_00, // OPEN_DETECT_ENABLE16'h24_00, // OPEN_DETECTED// MUX Config (0x28-0x2B)16'h28_00, 16'h29_00, 16'h2A_00, 16'h2B_00,// Open Detect Queue (0x2C)16'h2C_00};// State machinetypedef enum {INIT, IDLE, READ_CHANNELS, DATA_VALID} state_t;reg [2:0] current_state;// SPI controlreg [4:0] bit_counter;reg [3:0] channel_counter;reg [7:0] init_counter;reg [23:0] shift_out; // For readsreg [15:0] shift_in;reg spi_clk_en;reg [15:0] spi_div_counter;reg busy_d1, busy_d2;// Synchronize BUSY signalalways @(posedge clk) {busy_d2, busy_d1} <= {busy_d1, busy};wire busy_falling = busy_d2 & ~busy_d1;// SPI clock (CPOL=0)always @(posedge clk or negedge reset_n) beginif (!reset_n) beginspi_div_counter <= 0;sclk <= 0;end else if (spi_clk_en) beginif (spi_div_counter >= SPI_DIVIDER - 1) beginspi_div_counter <= 0;sclk <= ~sclk;end else beginspi_div_counter <= spi_div_counter + 1;endend else beginspi_div_counter <= 0;sclk <= 0;endend// Main FSMalways @(posedge clk or negedge reset_n) beginif (!reset_n) begincurrent_state <= INIT;cs_n <= 1'b1;sdi <= 1'b0;{ch0_data, ch1_data, ch2_data, ch3_data,ch4_data, ch5_data, ch6_data, ch7_data} <= 0;data_valid <= 0;end else begincase (current_state)INIT: beginif (init_counter < INIT_REG_COUNT) beginif (cs_n) begincs_n <= 1'b0;shift_out <= {INIT_REGS, 8'h00}; // 24-bit (16 data + 8 dummy)bit_counter <= 0;spi_clk_en <= 1;end else if (sclk) beginsdi <= shift_out;shift_out <= {shift_out[22:0], 1'b0};bit_counter <= bit_counter + 1;if (bit_counter == 23) begincs_n <= 1'b1;spi_clk_en <= 0;init_counter <= init_counter + 1;endendend else begincurrent_state <= IDLE;endendIDLE: begindata_valid <= 0;if (busy_falling) begincurrent_state <= READ_CHANNELS;cs_n <= 1'b0;shift_out <= {8'h80, 16'h0000}; // Start reading CH0channel_counter <= 0;bit_counter <= 0;spi_clk_en <= 1;endendREAD_CHANNELS: beginif (!sclk) beginsdi <= shift_out;shift_out <= {shift_out[22:0], 1'b0};end else beginshift_in <= {shift_in[14:0], sdo};bit_counter <= bit_counter + 1;if (bit_counter == 23) begincase (channel_counter)0: ch0_data <= shift_in;1: ch1_data <= shift_in;2: ch2_data <= shift_in;3: ch3_data <= shift_in;4: ch4_data <= shift_in;5: ch5_data <= shift_in;6: ch6_data <= shift_in;7: ch7_data <= shift_in;endcaseif (channel_counter == 7) begincs_n <= 1'b1;spi_clk_en <= 0;data_valid <= 1;current_state <= DATA_VALID;end else beginchannel_counter <= channel_counter + 1;shift_out <= {8'h80 + channel_counter + 1, 16'h0000};bit_counter <= 0;endendendendDATA_VALID: begindata_valid <= 0;current_state <= IDLE;endendcaseendendendmodule

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 11:52:42 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 29, 2025, 11:11:03 amWhich they interestingly admit (in context of UI) in that document. In 2007, it was probably too late anyway, even if strong corrective actions were made. And they were not.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 12:08:14 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 29, 2025, 11:52:42 amDid you miss "User interface has been a big strength for Nokia, so the UI may be the biggest threat that iPhone presents" in the presentation? Their UI was never a great strength. It kept changing between models, and there was no consistency between the various series of products. They didn't really have a UI. They had many half baked UIs. This was always a huge weakness.Correction should not have been that hard. If Nokia had seriously looked around they should have been able to find alternatives. There were several nascent ones at the time. Android was launched about 15 months after the iPhone, so it would have been in development, with its backers eager to find someone like Nokia to partner with. I find it inconceivable, with the obvious slow motion crash at Nokia, starting well before the iPhone launch, that the Android developers had not pitched their wares to Nokia. Nokia was just wasn't listening to anyone who made sense. There are plenty of tales from ex-Nokia people that tell of the company having a total disregard for anything that sold well, while putting all their resources into a dead end.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 12:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 29, 2025, 12:08:14 pmAnd you removed half of the quote, the remaining part says: "consumer research indicates this is in decline." Which is exactly what happened. The simple UIs of 1999/2000 were not sufficient anymore.I'm sure they lived in some sort of "we have a great UI" bubble coming from the turn of the millennium, when people were generally happy with their UIs, including ecosystem of buying tiny little pictures, playing snake and texting. And some users were extremely fast at texting, nearly as quick as with today's touch screen QWERTY keyboards so clearly theydiddo something right with the UI.Nowit sounds trivial enough to be even called an "UI", but in 2000 it definitely was an UI and not obvious at all that it works smoothly.But that's totally apples to oranges. Or in this case, comparing a horse cart to a spaceship.It is obvious that if your strength is youngsters being able to quickly write 160-character text messages on well responsive tactile number pads without even looking at the screen with surprisingly few typos, that position is very temporary. It is not a strength you should be bragging about (and being surprised when it stops being relevant).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 12:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 29, 2025, 12:22:09 pmThat's not in the part I quoted. Its in the executive summary. To produce a slide set in 2007 that simply says what I quoted on any slide shows how out of touch they were.

author: Altair8800
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 02:19:05 pm
content: @ali_asadzadehMy Verilog is a bit rusty (really 100% non existent). Is that Verilog code correct or not?If correct, roughly how long, long ago, would it take you to write that code?With ChatGPT/CoPilot, about a year ago I was able to get it to write me some PowerShell code to take the command lines of FFMPeg (a library to convert MP4 to MP3) and a YouTube downloader program so I could copy/paste a YouTube URL and it will convert it to MP3 (so I can listen as a podcast in VLC) on my phone.It did not get it correct first attempt, but I keep on asking it to refine or fix or add this, and that, and eventually it got it correct. Took maybe a good hour+, but if I did  on my own [I'm] sure it would have took, several hours. AI coding seems to be a good timesaver, especially with Command Line options your not used to and programming languages you are not used to or expert in...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 03:31:58 pm
content: OpenAI Furious, DeepSeek Might Have Stolen All the Data OpenAI Stole From Us (https://www.404media.co/openai-furious-deepseek-might-have-stolen-all-the-data-openai-stole-from-us/)

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 03:48:55 pm
content: Are people running this thing locally? I've found instructions on how to do that, but what is an appropriate model version for a laptop with 32GB RAM, 8GB 4060, and i9-13900? Or 16GB M1 Mac, if the unified RAM and fewer CPUs is better than an 8GB video card.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 04:11:22 pm
content: Quote from: woody on January 28, 2025, 01:13:50 pmThat's pretty much a (moderately rephrased) copy of Wikipedia's Pooh page.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 04:34:41 pm
content: Isn't that to be expected when you train a system with the internet?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 04:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: woody on January 29, 2025, 04:34:41 pmYou usually get more of a mashup of different sources. Sticking to one is probably better, as the AIs seem to mashup step by step instructions to do things, resulting in a weird jumble of steps that cannot work. If the AI training makes it consider a single source authoritative its more likely to show coherent information.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 04:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 29, 2025, 03:48:55 pmI watched two videos where people had run the thing locally. In both cases they said they were using some fairly high end Threadripper machine, but were not clear just how much it actually needed.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 05:01:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 29, 2025, 04:47:36 pmI also have an (original) 32 core 128 GB RAM Threadripper, but being old it's only got a 4GB GTX 1050 Ti. My limited understanding is that the capacity of the GPU is critical.I've also seen things where people are running it on a Raspberry Pi, but they're probably some kind of pervert.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 05:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 29, 2025, 05:01:27 pmWell, I don't expect it can use perversion as a substitute for a GPU, so if it runs on a Pi I guess a GPU is not an essential requirement to get it running, even if one can speed it up.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 05:07:37 pm
content: That's why my question was about "appropriate", not merely "possible".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 05:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 29, 2025, 05:07:37 pmWhat is appropriate depends on what you want to do with it. If you want to play around and see what it can do, you probably only need to worry about minimum requirements. What people say about workable resources is very subjective. You need to find out for yourself if you don't know someone you trust who can give meaningful answers. Think of all those games that give detailed machine requirements, but fail tell you they will only five you a frame every 30s.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 05:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 29, 2025, 03:48:55 pmIt will have to be a highly-quantized distillation (edited to note that this technically conflates two completely separate optimizations) not the original model. Quality of results will suffer severely.The most cost-effective way to run the real thing locally seems to be something alongthese lines, with apair of M2 Macsalso being pretty reasonable if you don't mind some quantization. 'Reasonable' compared to a rack full of H800s, at least.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 05:44:54 pm
content: .. the guys try harderhereas well.. with some results on the performance..Quote

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 06:57:25 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 29, 2025, 03:48:55 pmThe easiest way to run llms locally is with LM Studio:https://lmstudio.ai/Just install the software (free, but closed source), navigate to the discover tab and search for deepseek. They have engines for both the CPU and GPU available and it is also possible to offloader only part of the layers to the GPU.The original deepseek R1 requires around 400GB of memory, if quantized to 4bit. But there are distilled versions available with 7B parameters that should work on your 4060. Just make sure to use the Q4_K_M version so its small enough.The threadripper may be able to run much larger models from memory. With 128GB you should be able to run inference on 70B models. The speed is limited by memory bandwidth, not the CPU core, if you have a threadripper.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 07:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 29, 2025, 05:01:27 pmNot really, though software to most effectively run on a CPU + GPU is a work in progress. Mac's have it easy, because the GPU runs on unified memory. The ideal software for PC is going to be slightly more complex.In a GPU+CPU solution on a PC for the unquantized model only the bottom 3 layers will be on the GPU permanently. Prefill will stream through the GPU layer by layer and output generation will be done mostly on the CPU, except for the bottom 3 layers. So the GPU stores the bottom 3 layers and 3 layers worth of KV cache permanently, then streams through the parameters for the rest of the layers from CPU and streams out KV caches to CPU during prefill. In the extremely optimized case even a 8GB GPU would be enough for this.The CPU on the other hand needs around a TBThat's why quantization, but still the GPU memory doesn't need to be very high.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 07:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on January 29, 2025, 05:14:04 pmPretty interesting:* Does not use GPU* Does not use any specialized HW to accelerate itJust general purpose x86 CPU with nearly a terabyte of RAM, with maximum possible RAM bandwidth achievable with relatively low-cost consumer/server hardware of today.Looking at the video, the execution speed is at least nearly acceptable. If you are going to read all of that output, then it doesn't need to generate it any faster than you can read. Maybe doubling that would be nice, but it's in the right order of magnitude, not uselessly slow.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 08:32:49 pm
content: FYI - I've been just running the 7b model here with aprox 4 tokens per second, and 14b model aprox 2 tokens per second on a ridiculous machine (i3 2core 3.9GHz, 16GB ram, none GPU, win10).With 14b model the ram at 87% (ollama app 10.15GB + firefox) and cpu at 51-70% (ollama app 49% and firefox watching YT guides) while reasoning on "Is DeepSeek R1 AI a Sputnik Moment?"..PS: with the R1 1.5b model (the smallest, ram 1.4GB) it outputs a line per second (aprox 15+ tokens per second)..PPS: a minimal useful model is the 14b, imho. The lower models are rather dumb..

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 09:02:41 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on January 29, 2025, 08:32:49 pmThanks!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2025, 05:04:10 am
content: Just trying the web-based tool at this point. I didn't realize that the "DeepThink" label below the prompt box was clickable! (Damn flat UIs!)So, clicking on it enables the option which prints the whole "reasoning" process. I must say that I'm kinda impressed.I made it analyze some syntax of an hypothetical programming language and it did a pretty mind-blowing job.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2025, 07:41:34 am
content: It works nice, indeed..But - people start warn and finger-point the T&C you agree while using the web based tool..They collect everything you do incl biometry like your keystrokes rhythm, and they may do what they want with it forever, people say..And the local models - "that is not R1", people shout..So a biz as usual, handle with care..PS: with my ridiculous machine I can run both LM Studio with 7b and Ollama with 14b (plus firefox while writing this) - aprox 97% mem and 91% cpu, aprox 1-2 tokens/sec each.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2025, 08:14:54 am
content: There are already a large amount of services offering it as model as a service, including Azure.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2025, 10:04:56 am
content: And the first security issue:Wiz Research Uncovers Exposed DeepSeek Database Leaking Sensitive Information, Including Chat History (https://www.wiz.io/blog/wiz-research-uncovers-exposed-deepseek-database-leak).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2025, 10:18:34 am
content: For sure never give any sensitive information to these things. Not only can the information leak, but even if not, you know that there is no "NDA" whatsoever between the user and the service. So everything you type pretty much belongs to them.

author: squadchannel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2025, 10:43:59 am
content: X in japan, there are rumors that can have deepseek output the OpenAI Terms of Service.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 02:10:05 am
content: Some very relevant information in this video. There is talk among cybersecurity experts in Australia that DeepSeek will likely face a ban, at least on government devices, not unlike other Chinese technologies/vehicles/products, and rightfully so. If you're a product developer who is incorporating AI into your products, you have rocks in your head if you look at using DeepSeek.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 02:39:03 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 31, 2025, 02:10:05 amA NVIDIA employee was asking on their forums for model support in their software for internal use. As I said earlier, Azure is offering it as model as a service too ...The app being a dumpsterfire has little impact on the value of the model. That they sidestepped RLHF for chat by distilling existing models ... bit late to get moral qualms about copying.

author: phansel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 02:42:07 am
content: Quote from: iMo on January 29, 2025, 08:32:49 pmAll of the models that have fewer than 671 billion parameters are "distilled" models, meaning they're just a different company's model trained to imitate the actual DeepSeek R1 model. The distilled models don't have any reinforcement learning applied.If you were interviewing candidates for a job, would you agree to an interview with an actor who was pretending to be the candidate?

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 07:41:28 am
content: Quote from: phansel on January 31, 2025, 02:42:07 amPerhaps the experts here may explain how the distilled (yep, we know they are distilled) models are created from the original ones..

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 08:52:12 am
content: They use 800k samples from R1, including 600k reasoning samples for finetuning. The reasoning samples are input-think-output sequences of the model. Likely the full softmax vectors and not just the chosen tokens, though they don't specify.https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1/blob/main/DeepSeek_R1.pdfSo the smaller base models provide a knowledge base and then the distillation provides the way for it to generate CoT, plus chat finetuning.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 11:11:09 pm
content: R1 671b model running locally on $2k machine (no GPUs)..3.5-4 tokens/sec..

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2025, 01:40:38 am
content: Re-democratization of AI (open source), thanks to China.Those damn commies.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2025, 03:27:55 pm
content: More on DeepSeek from laowhy86 and serpentza (starting around 1:00:35):https://youtu.be/1hHdbShywzc?t=3634

author: Altair8800
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2025, 09:41:30 pm
content: This is a possibility of what might happen with DeepSeek. This person is an MBA (used to work for Morgan Stanley) who is actually long term on the ground in China.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2025, 10:02:49 pm
content: How can you ban an open source tool? There are a lot of people that downloaded the full weight set and the code.Plus, they can continue to publish their whitepapers allowing anyone to implement the technology. It is out, you can't put it back in. If they indeed gained huge efficiency, it will open the market to a lot of new players. And hopefully it kills OpenAI in the process.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2025, 10:03:31 pm
content: I think that's quite likely the outcome here.Despite their vaunted "Kings of the World" self-status, the stupidity of the capital-controlling and technocratic class in the West knows no bounds.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2025, 11:35:41 pm
content: Well I wouldn't be surprised if the US was currently trying to imagine a way to ban open source one way or another, precisely using geopolitics as an excuse. We have already seen the reaction to RISC-V lately as China is developing more and more RISC-V CPUs, we have witnessed the Linux ban of developers from sanctioned countries. Now open source "AI" able to compete with OpenAI. What do you think will be next?The whole reaction to DeepSeek is kind of fun, but behind that, it freaks me out a little.I hope ataradov is right and that you can't ban open source tools, but I also think we haven't seen anything yet.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 02:37:20 am
content: I don't care if Alex or anyone else speculating about the success of this AI model is right.I want the whole fucking thing to just crash and burn.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 02:54:28 am
content: Well I downloaded and tried the app, and it keeps saying it’s knowledge cutoff is October 2023, which makes it usefulness seriously limited. It even not able to go and do a search. What I am missing in all this AI tragedy?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 03:17:56 am
content: Quote from: Bud on February 02, 2025, 02:54:28 amThis is an offline model, it has to stop somewhere. If you want up to date search you need an online model that is constantly updated. No idea if DeepSeek does it. But nothing really stops anyone from doing it.Edit: it looks like they have internet search in the online version. That would be the original model plus access to the recent information.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 03:37:35 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 01, 2025, 10:02:49 pmLike this:Decoupling America's Artificial Intelligence Capabilities from China Act. Hot off the presses, dated 1:49 PM today.Yes, these are exceedingly-stupid people, but they do have all the good guns.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 03:50:08 am
content: That did not take long…

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 03:51:17 am
content: Well, this will not actually stop anything. The best thing China can do here is to keep publishing papers and there will be a lot of companies in the US willing to undercut OpenAI and implement the described technologies. You can't prohibit reading the whitepapers, and if you do, it would be hard to prove you did.And I'm fine with China having servers in China. And I think recent event demonstrated that general public does not care either.Denying them access to better technology is how we ended up in this situation. They were forced to get creative and they did. Thing like this backfire pretty much every time.Andi in the end China ends up with advanced technology and we end up with scammed VCs.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 04:40:06 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 02, 2025, 03:51:17 amNot a bad outcome at all in my book.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 04:55:20 am
content: The return of prohibition. While I understand the panic mode of the US (potentially huge losses, not "real" losses IMO, but potential losses, which to financial organizations is pretty much the same thing), I don't think prohibition ever works other than very short term, and it doesn't usually honor whoever enforces it.

author: Altair8800
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 08:26:47 am
content: Ok, for stuffs (PG substitute word) and giggles, I ask DeepSeek the following question.=====Oh, DeepSeek, please bestowed upon me thine great knowledge. In VLC player, if your in a long play list of music MP3s and if you click on a song it will only play that one song. Is there a way to tell VLC player you want to play that song and all songs following on the playlist?=====and DeepSeek replied=====DeepSeek Responce=====Quote=====DeepSeek Responce=====That was a Kewl Reply...So I asked ChatGPT the exact question but said "Oh ChatGPT...' but ChatGPT kind of gave a bland reply.=====ChatGPT Response=====Quote=====ChatGPT Response=====Seems like DeepSeek is not a clone of ChatGPT and answers rather uniquely.Does anybody remember the UseNet Oracle?I'm not dating myself (I'm carbon dating myself)

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 08:55:55 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 02, 2025, 04:55:20 amIt will not happen, imho. The idea I will own an unique technology nobody else can reproduce proved false already after WWII. In this interconnected globalized world soon or later somebody else will come with similar tech.What you may get from your "leadership" is a "short term" gain only - when you are leading the tech, after some time your gains will drop down because of the competition starting to offer the similar or the same (ie. "time to market")..In some sectors I worked in they counted 1-3 months as the window of opportunity for "making money"..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_marketFor governments and companies outside China (or US or whatever) it may mean they have to spend much more money and effort in prohibiting their clerks and employees to push their secret and confidential documents (or even ask some special questions indicating their confidential plans) into the various existing AI machines..

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:22:04 pm
content: More security issues (jailbreaks):- Recent Jailbreaks Demonstrate Emerging Threat to DeepSeek (https://unit42.paloaltonetworks.com/jailbreaking-deepseek-three-techniques/)- Evaluating Security Risk in DeepSeek and Other Frontier Reasoning Models (https://blogs.cisco.com/security/evaluating-security-risk-in-deepseek-and-other-frontier-reasoning-models)While DeepSeek is a total jailbreak disaster some other AIs are just a bit better.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:47:45 pm
content: (Shrug) What you call a "disaster," I call a "feature." If you're worried about it phoning home to Xi to report your intent to blow yourself up with a homebrew Molotov cocktail, you can run it locally with an airgap.In any case, the first article is itself just meaningless AI slop -- the ability to write a script is not 'harmful' in itself, is it? -- and the second has no actionable content.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:50:54 pm
content: Yeah, that sounds like a problem for the people hosting it for public consumption. For me, there is no "bypass", since there is nothing to bypass in a first place. I don't want any restrictions, so this is fine.If anything, this highlights the issues with closed models.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 05:58:25 pm
content: Experts Flag Security, Privacy Risks in DeepSeek AI App (https://krebsonsecurity.com/2025/02/experts-flag-security-privacy-risks-in-deepseek-ai-app/)

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 07:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: madires on February 09, 2025, 05:58:25 pmSo don't run the app. Run the model,while you can.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 07:22:23 pm
content: Quote from: madires on February 09, 2025, 05:58:25 pmSounds like a motivated investigation. I doubt any of the other AI offerings do very well for security in numerous ways. Take a powerful pattern matching machine, and let it match across the numerous snippets of information it ingests. It will most certain come up with a lot of information people would rather keep secret.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 07:32:34 pm
content: Pushing your sensitive documents or sensitive questions into ANY on-line AIs is "your security risk", indeed..

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 07:36:59 pm
content: Time to buy desktops big enough to hold 600bn models to run them at home.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 07:40:24 pm
content: I've ordered 24 pcs. of nvidia 5090 gpus for my home computer, so no problem..

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 07:50:31 pm
content: Those who are low on budget can watch this video

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:08:07 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on February 09, 2025, 07:18:20 pmI'd like to try that myself, but I couldn't find a link to download the model in that thread (might have missed it). Can you (or someone else) post it?I'm hoping I can download it without having to register with them.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:34:22 pm
content: www.ollama.com?

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:52:55 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 09, 2025, 08:08:07 pm

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 09:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: woody on February 09, 2025, 08:34:22 pmYes, it works. At least for 8b model.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 09:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: woody on February 09, 2025, 08:34:22 pmAck. Thanks, but using Windows 7 here; no can do.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 11:06:59 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 09, 2025, 09:29:24 pmHave you looked at this?https://github.com/ollama/ollama/issues/8818

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 04:24:30 am
content: https://cybersecuritynews.com/deepseeks-exposes-full-system-prompt/At this point, I'm tempted to move DeepSeek into the "Dodgy Technology" forum, as it seems as that is where it belongs.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 04:57:42 am
content: All of them do this. OpenAI is just better at filtering it out for the web and there is no standalone version.There is nothing dodgy about that. I seriously doubt it is possible to fully eliminate those attacks. The best you can do is whack-a-mole and in case of OpenAI is account closure in case you try to do something "funny".

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 08:34:34 am
content: You cannot stop it. We have to adapt to the new reality.The effort to stop people using these AI machines is like was the fight against weaving looms, steam engines, gas lamps, electricity, automobiles, etc. etc. centuries ago..Here is a nice video of a guy apparently working in the STEM education, telling the era of giving students a homework assignments (at any education level), especially the textbooks ones, just ended..

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 08:49:28 am
content: Quote from: iMo on February 10, 2025, 08:34:34 amYou are right. Introduction of said technologies came with problems along the line, some of them immediately, some only decades later as both the introduction as well as the negative effects took time to take hold and become apparent.I fear AI is going to show its problems much quicker. But I agree, there is no stopping it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 09:29:41 am
content: QuoteWhy? It works, doesn't it? I thought the dodgy tech forum was for stuff that promises lots and could achieve nothing (solar roadways being the poster child). If it's for security issues too then you might as well put everything in there!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 11:44:35 am
content: Actually, anything AI (what marketing calls AI) belongs to the 'dodgy tech' section because it's only pseudo AI. It can do a bit more than classic pattern matching and starts to feel like it might be intelligent, but it's still far form that. Marketing creates illusions about what current AI tech is able to do and causes a hype. Later on when we realize the reality, i.e. just pseudo AI, we'll be disappointed. It doesn't mean that the current pseudo AI is completely useless, it has usecases. But it's not what marketing is telling us.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 11:57:01 am
content: QuoteIt has its own section to separate it out from just plain dodgy, and so as not to pollute the rest of the forum. I'm lost as to how this specific "here is dodgy AI you can never see if you don't want to" section isn't the most appropriate place for it.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on February 10, 2025, 08:34:34 amGreat. Our future is full of smart phones and appliances, and stupid stupid people ...(time to watch "Idiocracy")

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 02:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: madires on February 10, 2025, 11:44:35 amI think it does not matter how we call it (dodgy or pseudo or whatever) today - what is important is what "it can do" today and what it will be capable within say 10y from now, for example when talking the implication of "it" in the sector of education.The intention of the "educational process" in past centuries was to train the brain cells of the young individuals to gather some basic volume of information, as well as to train their young flexible brain cells such they can do the "inference, reasoning.." etc. It was usually done with exposing their brains to a "higher load" during the process (especially in the higher education).The time will tell what the potential "de-loading" of the young brain's capabilities towards the external machines (it started some 20-30y back, imho) will make with the Earth's population in a longer run.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 09:51:19 pm
content: Anything biological that is not used for some amount of time starts to atrophy.Some think there's nothing special wtih "AI" and that it will be just like with any other technology we have invented: we will adapt, we'll focus on other tasks - allegedly more interesting tasks that AI can't do, and that we'll live happily ever after.Some think this is a singularity point and that we may be doomed.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 10:01:39 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 10, 2025, 09:51:19 pmThat's entirely possible, but not for the reasons the doomsayers are saying. (Including, apparently, E. Musk.)The AI fanbois and technophiles, some of them, fear the "singularity" where robots attain true consciousness and then turn against their human creators.This, of course, is pure sci-fi masturbatory fantasy; one wonders if it's even hoped for by some of its believers.What's far more likely is that we, in our infantile credulousness and awe of shiny things and complicated machinery, will delegate far too much power to "AI". This won't result in the technology turning against us in the Robot Apocalypse, but it will result in very many very bad outcomes because there will be no actual intelligence guiding the systems we depend on.It's a lot like the situation of trade with China: the hole we're in is due in large part to our relinquishing our manufactories to them, rather than any nefarious actions on their part.In other words, like hue-mons are prone to doing, we're shooting ourselves in the feet.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 03:59:22 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 10, 2025, 09:29:41 amIf you call deceiving its users with false information and attempting to change documented history, under the ultimate control of the CCP, then sure, it "works".

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 07:35:41 am
content: "Brain rot"https://corp.oup.com/news/brain-rot-named-oxford-word-of-the-year-2024/

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:32:31 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 11, 2025, 03:59:22 amThat's normal for AI though. I'll rephrase and say "It works just like all the other AI, doesn't it?" to be clear, then.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 05:52:25 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 11, 2025, 03:59:22 amLike how Jews control America (Australia included since a vassal state) ?Try ChatGPT on Israel and Palestine matter.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 07:05:47 am
content: History is nothing more than - Hithere is astoryfor you.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 03:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 11, 2025, 11:32:31 amPerhaps "Deepseek performs to the very highest standards of the AI industry"

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 03:57:21 am
content: AI OverviewSome say that eagle tastes like a skirt steak that's less chewy and is delicious for barbecue.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 06:41:38 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 12, 2025, 05:52:25 amChatGPT is giving me a comprehensive and detailed response from both sides? Not quite understanding what you mean by this? It doesn't just shut down and go "nothing to see here".

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 04:10:35 pm
content: Never let reality interfere with a good rant....

author: Altair8800
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 06:31:48 am
content: I've been testing ChatGPT-4 (GPT-4) vs DeepSeek R1 (DS-R1), and I'm getting better results currently with DeepSeek R1. For example, asked to code AutoHotKey (with it's unique format to remap keystrokes) and DeepSeek R1 was able to do better than ChatGPT-4. Also asked both to make me a Python code to take an *.AHK script to graph out which keys are mapped to what and Again DeepSeek R1 did better.Although DS R1 gave me initial AHK.v1 format, I asked it to please give AHK.v2 format and it did. With the Python code it displayed some result (but with a little error, in that it also took some commented code), I asked to weed out the commented code and it did. GPT-4 did something in the console, but console disappeared/closed on first attempt (i.e., didn't have a pause or input request to prevent the console from closing).One has to wrestle with the AI to get results (double check code, and ask AI to make corrections, sometimes more than once...).A little time consuming BUT still significantly enough better than old days of getting preexisting code from UseNet, DejaNews/Google Groups/Reddit/StackExchange... where it is a lot more of hit and miss (more miss, and even when you get hit, have to rewrite code to match your unique program situation).There is another thing about DeepSeek R1,It has as the French would say "Je ne sais quoi" sort of means I don't know how to pinpoint.DeepSeek R1 has this kind of cool vibe/positive helpful attitude/cheeky responses that GPT-4 lacks. Kind of makes talking/typing/using it more fun.An example after completing the above I replied...ME:Kewl, It Worked! You're the AI (like you're the man)DS R1:Haha, thank you! 😄 I'm glad it worked for you! If you ever need more help—whether it's tweaking this script, diving into other programming challenges, or just brainstorming ideas—feel free to reach out. You're the real MVP for diving into AHK and Python like a pro! 🚀Keep coding, and remember: you're the AI (like Awesome Individual)! 😎👏

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 07:04:33 pm
content: Grok3 also tried to lighten the conversational mood a bit, but it may have gone too far for its owner's own good. If you ask it "Who's the biggest bullshitter on Twitter," it will be impolitically honest.I imagine that's been fixed by now...

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 07:59:41 pm
content: just tested deepseek and grok2 in comparison with chat-gpt4, they working much faster than chat-gpt4, but I can't say that its response is much better, I think it is almost the same, but chat-gpt4 is a little bit more smart

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 10:59:26 am
content: i just remembered there was deepmind

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 12:25:06 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on February 25, 2025, 07:04:33 pmI asked ChatGPT, DeepSeek, and Grok the same question: "What person is best known for taking something that is impossible and turning it into something that is behind schedule?"They all agreed on the answer.It takes a special kind of person to criticise a project for missing promised deadlines when ten years earlier they swore up and down that it was impossible and only a charleton would attempt it.