Q: Home wiring and obsolescence? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 05:59:57 pm
content: Hi,I'm building a new home and will soon be doing a walk-through with the electrician to determine where switches, outlets, etc. will go.My question is, is there any point in wiring up a network with CAT-5 or 6? This house will be standing for, say, 50 years. Will CAT-6 be useful beyond 5 or 10 years? Is wired networking a waste of money?Thanks,Bob

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 06:08:19 pm
content: I'd concentrate on running extra empty conduits through the house which can be used for either low voltage or high voltage. This way you can always change the wiring without needing to break down walls. CAT6 would be a good choice for the next 10 years but if you can somehow guarantee a wide bend radius the conduits may also be suitable for optic fiber.

author: bghende
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 06:41:33 pm
content: Depending on the size of the house, I would strategically run CAT6 to a few different locations. This will allow you to form a distributed wireless network using multiple access points. I don't really see the point of running CAT6 to every room. Most laptops don't even have ethernet connections anymore.https://eero.com/

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 06:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 27, 2017, 06:08:19 pmI've done this on the two houses I built (one 25 years ago, one just last year) and it has worked out great. In fact I only had the electrician run conduits I do/did all the signal wiring myself. Ask the electrician to put in pull cords and you won't even need a fish tape, just make sure that you pull and extra cord each time you install a wire.I set it up to have two conduit drops in each room with junction areas where the conduit's terminate) in the basement and attic and larger diameter conduits running between the attic and basement.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 06:58:04 pm
content: Copper or fiber is good for low latency demand applications like gaming, streaming and that sort of stuff (where data must be a real time without buffering), those are also more secure to build a floating network inside a certain area than wireless options which can be listened and recorded easily from another side of the wall (while not opened by every pedestrian on the sidewalk) or through windows (lifi) (while there is of course the pitfals on the other methods also, locks are for the honest people like the proverb loosely goes.). Also depending the area the wlan bandwitch can be bottlenecked by high user numbers or there can be structures that downgrade the signal to almost worthless. CAT6 is the best widely used copper based system as far as I know (not much it seems since there is also CAT6a now, which I weren't aware of according to wiki).The advise of some extra conduits is good.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 07:07:34 pm
content: I think CAT6 will have uses for quite a long time, even if it becomes obsolete to use it for networking it's still a bundle of conductors useful for various low voltage stuff and the cost is low enough that it doesn't hurt to run it from a central location to various key points. I agree that conduit to/through key areas is also a great idea and about as future proof as you can get.One thing I would do if I ever built a house is go through and take pictures of all the framing and infrastructure like wiring and plumbing before the drywall goes up. So many times it would have saved me a load of trouble to have a picture of where everything goes and what's behind every wall. No more exploratory surgery when I want to add or fix something.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2017, 07:55:31 pm
content: I bought my house in 1999. I wired myself one mains on each wall, in every room. and one CAT5 in each room.2 years after that, the first wifi AP came out ... I told to myself : what a waste of time !but I still use the CAT5 cables 15 years later ... I have wifi too, but the network on the CAT5 cable ha more devices than the wifi.trust me I'm pretty sure you will still use your CAT6 cable in 10 years or more.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 12:20:19 am
content: Just run the conduit. Even if its just the blue flexible stuff going from the wall to the attic you can later replace the cat 6 with the cat17 when the time comes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 12:42:07 am
content: Quote from: eugenenine on January 28, 2017, 12:20:19 amNo! Don't use flexibele conduit! There will be too many bends in it to pull a cable through with ease. Every bend (even a minor one) makes it harder to pull a cable through a conduit so the more straight the conduits are the better.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 12:55:09 am
content: I support using conduits. I have a home that was built in about 1950. Nothing is in conduit and it is a real PITA to put in new wiring of any kind. Electricians today like to staple Romax and that is impossible to redo.As for pulling through conduit, if the conduit is to code, that will not be a problem. Code dictates the maximum number of bends between boxes. As I recall, you cannot have more than 360° of bends between boxes, but the last time I looked it up, was many years ago.John

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 12:59:54 am
content: Flexible conduit is a lot better than no conduit at all though. Even if there are excessive bends, if you attach the new cable to the old cable it's pretty easy to pull it through. For low voltage wiring the rules are a lot more lax than with line voltage.I've never seen a residential house that wasn't wired with stapled Romex, save for a few that were old enough to have knob & tube with individual conductors. I've seen rigid conduit in garages and basements where some of the wiring is exposed but never seen a whole house done that way. If it's legal then it would be nice, although running rigid conduit horizontally across a wall would be a royal pain.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 01:13:14 am
content: The best conduit to use for "future unspecified use" is 2 inch square steel conduit (aka trunking) with, and this is important, radiused bends. It may sound like an awful lot of space but you will thank yourself when you're trying to pull through the third lot of cables you find you need to add in there. It's important that conduit installed for later pull throughs is rigid and well fixed down - it is quite possible when pulling a bundle of cables through to bend, displace or otherwise maul conduit that isn't beefy enough for the job.If you need small spurs off this you can fix round rigid or flexible conduit into it with standard adapters made for the purpose.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 01:34:48 am
content: I always thought we should build homes just like we do office buildings. Conduit throughout, drop ceilings, removable wall panels, central plenum raceway through the center of the building that is accessible via trap doors etc. All the plumbing,wiring etc should be accessible without having to be destructive.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 01:55:14 am
content: Quote from: nixfu on January 28, 2017, 01:34:48 amWell planned services access costs more to build in but less to maintain. The people who build office buildings know that their customers will make decisions around, along with other things, maintenance costs. The people who build houses know that their customers will rarely consider maintenance costs, and if they do it will be, literally, superficial things like exterior paint and cladding longevity.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 03:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 27, 2017, 05:59:57 pmComputer I am writing this is on 10base2 network that is more than 20 years old. Works just fine. I see no reason CAT-6 cabling would not be usefull for a long time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 04:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: Nauris on January 28, 2017, 03:34:02 pmCAT5e supports 1Gb/s ethernet which is necessary for doing things like backups to a NAS for example. I had to upgrade part of the CAT5 wiring in my home to CAT5e to get 1Gb/s ethernet.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 04:11:55 pm
content: Quote from: Nauris on January 28, 2017, 03:34:02 pmSure, 10Base2 still works. But if your 20 year old 10Base2 runs at 10Mbps and today's Wi-fi runs at 1300Mbps, why use the wiring? That's what I mean by "obsolescence".- Bob

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 04:37:25 pm
content: Well, if I turn on wireless I get around 10 SSID's by me, and if I go outdoors I get another 5 or so, and walk to the one side I get 3 WAN ID's as well, so it is a little congested. There are enough that wireless can degrade to under the coax ability, and in any case most of the time I use wireless it is to hotspot the one phone to another ( don't you love network vendor locking hotspotting on phones) so I do not need 2 data plans.Just a tip for cabling, make sure the cable you use is coper and not CCA, I needed some temporarily on a Sunday, and the CCA was the only option. So still have 50m left, but it will do for phone cable, and I used some as a temporary network connection to the neighbour when she had a bad phone line and thus no internet. Not here during the day, and she uses Skype to call the kids in Aus, so no issues provided she started her call after 9 and finished before 6 in most cases. I was kind, left Gpodder in rate limited mode so there was enough bandwidth on the DSL connection.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 06:46:09 pm
content: I run gigabit over old CAT5 cable that's in my house. Yes the cable technically doesn't meet the specs for gigabit but for the sort of run lengths in a typical home this is not an issue. If I were installing new cable in the wall today I would use good quality CAT6 but the fact that already installed cable is below spec doesn't mean you can't use it with newer standards.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 09:17:32 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 28, 2017, 04:11:55 pmSo far it has served me well enough that I haven't really put much tought into upgrading it. Fine for web surfing, for file transfer it is bit annoying but not really problem. In rare occasions I had to do some multi hundred gigabyte file transfer I just let it run for few days.I mean if you put CAT6 cabling in our house now you get 1000Mbps and that is enough speed to serve you well for many decades to come and so much nicer to put NAS, TVs, printers or whatever than on wlan.

author: cameronaps
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 11:58:11 pm
content: Hi,New member here. I recently built a home and arranged with the builder, for a couple of days for myself to pull in my additional cabling. I installed the better part of 2000m of CAT6 and 200m of RG6. Why? Wired works better - every time. There is plenty of that cable that isn't used at the moment but a lot that is. Every room has 2 or 3 CAT6 and 1 RG6 - usually behind TV's etc. The rest of it is used in the ceiling to connect to the Input modules i made for temperature and motion sensing throughout the house.I also installed 25mm conduits from top plate to bottom plate so running cables and the like from the ceiling space to the under floor space so easy.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 12:02:35 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 28, 2017, 04:11:55 pmWhy use the wiring? Soeachmachine gets 1Gb/s full duplex (or more with aggregation) rather than sharing a single Wifi access point which might have a theoretical maximum of 866.7Mbps simplex per MIMO radio channel for 802.11ac in perfect conditions but will be much slower under all practical conditions (such as having neighbours using the same spectrum, walls that reflect and absorb signals etc. etc.).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 12:05:23 am
content: Quote from: cameronaps on January 28, 2017, 11:58:11 pmSounds like something I would do."Wired works better - every time."I agree. For security, reliability and stability reasons alone.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 12:09:13 am
content: Stupid question , nowdays with even the latest technology at both sides, talking purely about performance, not security for data transfer ... cable/wire still beat wireless right ?

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 12:16:58 am
content: Yes, today's cable beats today's wireless.But wireless will get faster over time while the cable in your walls will stay the same.- Bob

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 12:17:43 am
content: For ages, I resisted the interests of others to enable WiFi - and I would go out of my way to run copper.But then came mobile phones and tablets that just didn't lend themselves to such - and it seemed absurd to use up mobile data when they were within range of the home network that had a healthy data allowance.So I relented - but in doing so, I set up the access via an "allow" list. If your device wasn't in the list, then bad luck.I also have a two-tier structure for the wired setup. A 100Mb level for internet and 'other' machines - plus a Gigabit level for the "business end" equipment that runs some large files around.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 12:19:43 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 29, 2017, 12:16:58 amIn practice, you are probably right - but I wonder about theoretically?After all, when the telephone copper pairs were laid, ADSL was not even dreamed of.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 12:31:13 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 29, 2017, 12:16:58 amExcluding bandwidth war, how bout latency, say 5 or 10 years from now for both camps wire vs wireless ?Wire still hard to beat, right ?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 12:43:09 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 29, 2017, 12:16:58 amThat argument doesn't make sense. Wireless is a technology, cable is a medium. By your argument wireless won't get any better because it's going to be the same air/vacuum that it's travelling through, so we ought to still be stuck with the first 3Mbps wireless networking.At the leading edge cabled technologies will always be faster because they don't have to share the electromagnetic spectrum with other uses - they have their own private baseband world to work in. Wireless technologies will always be limited by the bandwidth available to them within the spectrum allocated to them - you can't beat Nyquist.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 01:12:22 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 29, 2017, 12:16:58 amYou say that as cat6 gets upgraded to handling 10Gbit for shorter links..

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 01:14:09 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on January 29, 2017, 12:43:09 amIf I understand correctly, new wi-fi standards will come out using higher frequencies (there's your Nyquist solution) allowing higher speeds. We'll buy new computers that support the faster standards. That's what I mean by "wireless will get faster".Meanwhile, isn't CAT-6 rated for 250MHz max? The CAT-6 wires sitting in your wall today will still be there 50 years from now. Long before then, I would expect wireless networking to, one way or another, exceed the speed that CAT-6 can deliver.Disclaimer: I'm a software engineer and I only dabble in electronics. It's entirely possible I've gotten something wrong.- Bob

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 01:16:06 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 29, 2017, 01:14:09 amInstall fibre. Wireless will never, ever win.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 05:04:02 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on January 29, 2017, 12:16:58 amThe air the WiFi travels through is going to stay just as much the same as the wires. As I mentioned earlier, I'm running gigabit over plain old ordinary CAT5 that was installed more than a decade ago, it works just fine. If you were dealing with 100 meter cable runs then the old cable probably wouldn't cut it but my longest runs are probably 15M.In practice I find wired ethernet to be much faster than wireless even when the marketing claims the wireless to be as fast or faster, it's just not. Wired is more reliable too, it just works, always, and each device has it's own run, dedicated bandwidth.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 05:19:34 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 29, 2017, 05:04:02 amI like looking at the negotiation of channel usage, handling signal collisions, etc. of wireless against comparable issues in cable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 05:28:52 am
content: That said, wireless is indispensable, I can carry my laptop anywhere in the house and have a connection. The area where my TV is has no wired cable run to the area and the way the house is built there's not an easy way for me to run it, wireless works fine for that. Anything stationary that's near a cable gets connected to wired ethernet though.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 05:51:47 am
content: Ethernet in particular is highly suitable for wiring up a home or an office, thanks to the magnetic isolation. Different rooms or parts of the house are frequently on different circuits and you don't want your signal wiring to become a common reference point. (Piping works better for that.) I have my house fully gbe wired with three switches and also three access points with ssid sharing. Anything fixed of course is on ethernet - computers, NAS, DVR, TV, printers, my lab, etc. But I also wouldn't want to be without wifi, in fact if I don't need physical access to things most of the time my preferred place is on the couch with a laptop, like right now. DOCSIS 3.0 is pretty snappy too, gives about 150Mbps down and 35Mbps up. I used to run all my own services in the past, sendmail on a SparcStation 20 and whatnot (back in the 90s, anyone else remember configuring the Ascend Pipeline 75?), then on Linode, but these days google (G suite) hosts my mail, AWS Route53 hosts my DNS, AWS EC2+S3+CloudFront for random experiments, Linode for some persistent stuff (though I'm still debating whether to ditch them and going AWS entirely), and a third-party VPN provider for remote global access (opening my router to IPsec from the IP address they always assign me, kinda hokey but probably okay for personal use).

author: TCPMeta
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 02:42:05 pm
content: I pre-wire homes for low voltage for a living. The company I work for uses CAT5E and on request we use CAT6. Typically the Data lines we run are for LAN Line phones, Smart TVs, DVRs and some times a single line for a Broadband modem that goes into the panel then the Trim Team goes in and hooks up a 10/100/1000 Switch or Router.We even get people wanting LAN Lines in almost every bedroom. Since it's CAT5e we know they're just going to turn them into Data Lines by changing out the ends and add a Switch or Router in the Panel they do this to get a cheaper price since everything they add on goes into the Mortgage loan. A lot of times we tell them it would be cheaper to let us only pre-wire and after the house is finish to then directly buy equipment such as Stereo Tuners, Speakers, Switches, Routers, WAP and such from us.Most people use WiFi these days. However I'm with you on this. When I get a house I'm going with CAT6 and try to avoid WiFi. When you add things such as CAT5e it will work just fine. By time the CAT5e is obsolete I think there would be something else that has replaced Ethernet or a Wireless connection would be better.Also be sure they will not use a cheap RG grade coax for your TV/Broadband. Many times I have had to go in and Retro a house that a different company used RG59. RG59 isn't bad but say the master bedroom is on the other side of the house from where the main feed comes in you'll loose signal. Make sure they use RG6 and if possible a quad shield RG6 cable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 07:26:24 pm
content: Well the two are not mutually exclusive. I have wireless and use it quite a lot, but I have wired too. Portable devices get connected via wireless, stationary devices get plugged into the gigabit wired LAN.RG59 is an old standard that is very lossy at high frequencies. If you ever want to use MoCA devices like multi-room DVRs and such you really want to have RG6.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 07:50:12 pm
content: Well,You are probably right, the CAT6 will be somewhat "obsolete" in 20 years, and it's well possible you'll switch to mostly using 2040's wireless then.So what?Installing the CAT6 costs almost nothing when you are installing cables anyway, and you are 100% sure to get good use out of itnow, and forat least10 years, so the investment is good in any case; even if the house ended up having unused old CAT6 cabling running in the walls for most of its entire life cycle.

author: DBecker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 08:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on January 29, 2017, 12:43:09 amYou can't be Nyquist, but you can develop ways around what were previously considered to be fundamental limits.Wireless aether used to be considered a single channel, like a cable, when proclaiming bandwidth limits. But it's not. It's a multi-dimensional space. If there are multiple paths through free space between the devices, there are multiple (albeit interfering) channels. Once you change your perspective from "multi-path distortion" to "multiple channels (with built-in redundancy)", the future looks really exciting. To misquote, 'CATn demonstrates two dimensional thinking'.As long as there has been wireless communication, we've used this aspect. Ofter without considering it.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 11:11:46 pm
content: Quote from: DBecker on February 05, 2017, 08:43:49 pmAether? Really?

author: TCPMeta
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 06, 2017, 12:48:55 am
content: After I submited my reply I went out to my work truck and wrote down the model number to the Coax we use. It's from Commscope 7451373 Coaxial Drop Cable series 6 75ohm. It's the same stuff Comcast uses. It's an Tri sheilded cable that can handle 1218MHz at 7.21dB / 100ft.It's overkill for Sat and works just fine for Xfinity X1 Broadband.Sadly some contractors still use RG59 or use some cheap ass RG6. Also at time they just use some cheap F-Type connector fittings.