Ethernet wiring in an apartment - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:24:46 pm
content: We are renovating an apartment and were thinking of installing CAT 5 in every room. Because of the distances involved, and the lack of a loft, all wires would be passed through the walls, and I was thinking of using 1Gb hubs in various places to allow me to extend to other rooms without needing a separate wire all the way back to central. The idea would be that you'd draw a wire to say room 1, and at the wall socket you'd install a hub, allowing you to pull another wire towards another room, like a daisy chain. Now that process would be easier if the wall socket itself was a hub it'd look nicer, you would not have a box hangin g out of a wall, it would all be integrated into the wall socket.Am I on the right track here? Not sure if my idea is correct or if anything similar even exists.

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:40:09 pm
content: I am aware of WiFi repeaters but I'm not aware of any Ethernet repeaters. In any case, powering each repeater would be a problem. Besides, by the time you are done the Ethernet will be obsolete and you will be tearing the walls again to install fiber, or whatever the next fad happens to be. So better design for ease of access and maintainability.Just run conduit from a central location to each outlet. The conduit can be daisy chained while the cables remain separate inside the conduit.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:41:09 pm
content: I'm just using powerline ethernet. Far easier than the whole cabling shebang (I did that for a couple of years back in the distant past0.

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: MrSlack on February 29, 2016, 06:41:09 pmI'm not very familiar with that but what is stopping your neighbor from snooping on your network?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:45:53 pm
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on February 29, 2016, 06:44:49 pmA different phase. The guy two houses down, though.. luck and really weak encryption.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:46:07 pm
content: Depending on the speeds you need, these could be an option...http://www.powerethernet.com/product/power-ethernet-t1000.htmlIf you want to go with switches then small 8 port Gb switches are cheap, but need power unless you could star wire them back to a single point and use small PoE powered switches around the place.Really it depends on the floorpan, what you intend to run over it that cannot be done via a wireless infrastructure.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:47:50 pm
content: If you are going forward with the wiring, I would suggest using Cat6 cable and would run individual lines back to a central location. I have never done it so don't know the efficacy of 1 line split with multiple switches. If you are running in the walls anyway, use a modular system if there is a phone jack in each room. You can run the drop where the phone line is and use a modular plate that you can put both RJ-11 and RJ-45 connectors into. Keeps everything nice and neat.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on February 29, 2016, 06:44:49 pmAES256 encryption and limited range (~200ft)

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 29, 2016, 06:45:53 pmA very cursory glance at the concept reveals that it is the security equivalent of the Brazilian shower head.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:11:52 pm
content: My experience with powerline is that it works on very limited fashion, range, reliability, susceptibility from other electrical devices (eg the kettle of all things). I did get it to work by using multiple pairs of powerline adapters, where each pair is separate, and where each pair is relatively close together. But it's a hassle and unreliable and slow.I have installed CAT5 in my house and where I needed extra length to other, remote rooms, I installed a 1Gb hub and ran separate wires to other rooms from it, therefore no need to run those wires all the way back to the central hub.To install separate wires from a central location to every single room, even two or three wires per room, would be cost prohibitive, the thickness of the conduits needed to carry so many wires, not the cost of wires. That is why I was thinking maybe I could daisy chain them with a hub in each link.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:17:32 pm
content: Conduit?!

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:23:48 pm
content: Erm yes, imagine 6-7 rooms all being fed from one remote place (the kitchen) and how many wires per room, say 2, so we have 14 wires leaving the kitchen going into one direction mainly, inside a tube in the wall I can pass maybe 3 so i'd need 5 tubes all starting off in the kitchen and leading into the living rooms/offices, that is a lot of damage to the walls to run these horizontally. It's an apartment as I said , so there is no loft or other crawl space I can use, all wires have to travel horizontally into the walls inside the plaster more or less and protected inside tubing.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:29:47 pm
content: As has been stated, the problem of powering the switches (there are no Gigabit hubs) would be a problem if the switches were in the walls.You could bring the daisy-chain wiring out to two jacks. One goes back to the previous room while the other goes on to the next room. If you don't want to provide Ethernet in a particular room, plug in a short cable from one jack to the other. If you want Ethernet in the room, install a switch and install cables from both jacks to the switch. You lose two ports on the switch for the feed-through, but the switches are cheap.

author: _Andrew_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:41:45 pm
content: How big is the apartment?With cat6 cable you can have up to 100m cable runs from the switch.Using a switch that can deliver up to 30w poe per port can be advantageous, that way you can remove the need for power supplies for local wifi access points, network cctv cameras and voip phones ect...I'm making good use of these switcheshttp://www.wifi-stock.co.uk/details/tp-link_switch_tl-sg3424p.html.I needed the sfp slots as I have some runs that are too long for cat6 so had to run fiber between the switches. Also using the managed layer functions of the switches. Not to horrendously priced.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:43:17 pm
content: If the switch gets unplugged for some reason (as it's hanging lose off of a wall socket) all other rooms down the chain will lose the internet too. But if the Gb switch was somehow incorporated inside the wall socket it'd be so much neater. Of course I do not want to bury switches into the walls, although I could create a box to contain them inside the wall assuming I got the smallest size possible. The switches I use at home measure around 8"x4" way too large and also require an external power adaptor. That is why I was thinking there might be a product which would essentially be a 3 port Gb switch, one "input", one "output" to the current location and one "output" to the next room, powered internally from a near by mains socket.

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:47:46 pm
content: You could use in-wall 3-port switches which use 1-2 plastic fiberoptic uplinks (2.2mm cable), no problem running 20 fibers in a single tube. Not very cheap..

author: eetech00
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 09:57:58 pm
content: Quote from: akis on February 29, 2016, 06:24:46 pmIf I were doing this today, I would use secured WIFI. Install an WIFI router at your ISP service connection, then use AP's in one or two rooms.802.11n is good for 300mb and 802.11ac is good for 450mb and higher. Just make sure your devices support the wireless standard you choose.Both are backward compatible with 802.11a/b/g. Even for those devices that don't have WIFI, there are plenty of adapters to make them WIFI capable.The wired approach seems like a lot of work and a lot of cost for an apartment.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 10:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: eetech00 on February 29, 2016, 09:57:58 pmbahahah.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 10:58:25 pm
content: Definitely the most effective long term would be CAT6 from a central location with a single switch. Distributed switches will work (that's how I do it) but it's messy, and if they are buried inside the walls then you've automatically built in obsolesence for when 10Gbase-T becomes reasonably affordable.As for wireless it depends how busy your neighbourhood is, but in a busy apartment block you need multiple APs over a reasonably sized apartment as the noise floor will typically be high these days. A single AP will only be effective in small apartments. I can't give you any good stories about wireless extenders I'm afraid, they're terribly unreliable in my experiences with them.I gave up with powerline some time ago, it was far too unreliable for my purposes, although better than wireless. I found that the bandwidth went up and down all the time making my centralised backups too unreliable.I run gig ethernet over flat CAT6 throughout my flat which can be tucked invisibly into the carpet edge, if you have carpets of course!

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 11:09:29 pm
content: Deffo pull CAT6 even if you don't terminate it to CAT6 spec...you can always do that later. Price premium is slight. Go for a star wired approach if you can...distance isn't a problem unless its a -huge- apartment.Google 'structured cabling' to see how the pros do it in offices etc. Save wireless and powerline for fixup duties when you find you've missed convenient drop locations :-)When I did it I pulled some decent quality coax too..always glad that I did. With hindsight I wish I'd put some strategic hdmi in too, but that's the beauty of hindsight.Finally, make sure you route your runs sensibly (pros have separate data and power conduits) and keep the cables supported /protected properly... There are people here who can advise you on that a million times better than me.Dave

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 09:16:18 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 29, 2016, 10:16:07 pmYep. 300mbits here. Not. 10 on a good day. Got 22 SSIDs visible from neighbours (joy to London) and more RF interference than teetering on the event horizon of a black hole.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 12:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: akis on February 29, 2016, 07:23:48 pmYou could take a couple of cm off the top and put in tensioned ceilings. Not super expensive, though it can't quite compete with re-plastering the walls.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 01:36:36 pm
content: Quote from: MrSlack on February 29, 2016, 06:41:09 pmBut probably insecure - seehttps://www.bentasker.co.uk/documentation/security/282-infiltrating-a-network-via-powerline-homeplugav-adaptersI admit I have them; they're OK on the same ring, so-so if they have to cross the fuse box MCBs to get to another ring and utterly hopeless if you plug them into any sort of filtered strip.I have them on a separate network which I mostly don't trust - I'll give hosts an IP address via DHCP, allow access to the DLNA server and allow recursive lookups on the DNS server but those are the only things that the Internet at large can't do. My main worry would be someone hijacking the internet connection via the powerline network.It's really just for the telly as the WiFi wasn't always reliable enough for HD streaming, so the traffic is mostly iPlayer anyway

author: Aeternam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 02:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: _Andrew_ on February 29, 2016, 07:41:45 pmThis.If you plan for 10m of cabling from the wall socket to your device this leaves 90m available for horizontal wiring. Which should be more than enough for an apartment.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 02:37:33 pm
content: I did a mistake once with the switches in the walls... They don't get proper ventilation when hidden. Gets overheated and dies. If the switch is OK, the power supply dies. It's also difficult to fit the power supply there, so I did all types of soldering and reducing the size of the power supply...One central switch and cables to each room is the best option. I had to do a hole for 4 cables in the main room, but the further you go, the less cables you have to get through. Plus, you do it once in your life probably, so CAT6 should be the way to go

author: dwpatter53
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 09:55:49 pm
content: I would install small gigabit switches in some of the clothes closets, you have easy access through the wall to the adjacent bedroom.Instead of going through walls you might go from closet to closet via a cat5 cable around the edge of the room; under the rug or raise the baseboards to create a wire way and hide it with 1/4 round moulding.

author: elecman14
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 10:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: dwpatter53 on March 01, 2016, 09:55:49 pmI guess that is a new kind of wiring closet.My advice is to just run the cable to each room. By the time you buy and maintain the switches you will probably be spending more for not much gain. Also if you need to upgrade in the future you will be able to replace one device. Worst case if cat 5 or 6 falls out of favor you can use the old wire to pull the new.

author: leafman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 11:25:18 pm
content: Recently did network installs in my house (~3500 sqft, about 20 drops) and my parents much larger (6000+ sqft, about 50-60 drops) and you can be very confident that a decent quality cat6 will work easily at 300' runs, and probably longer. The only time your going to have issue is if your doing PoE for security cameras and the like, but even that is fairly robust if you have decent equipment.Putting switches in the walls or areas with poor ventilation as others have said is a sure way to have to open the wall to replace them. This is especially true of consumer switches as they just dont last more than a couple years for the most part before the caps inside pop.