Helping Beginners With Multimeter Shopping? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: BobC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 04:23:15 pm
content: I volunteer to provide career mentoring to engineering students at my alma mater (mainly so I can tell them my stories). The moment they start seeing money from an employer, many of them immediately want to start building a "real" home lab. I tell them to start with a decent multimeter, then I send them to the EEVblog Store, which offers good meters across a wide price range. But I'm getting lots of this-vs-that questions concerning features, value and use cases.That's not the kind of mentoring I want to do! (Mainly because it then leads to endless discussions of how to get the best performance from limited instruments, such as having to use what's available in an employer's lab.)Then I get questions about using a less expensive meter with a uCurrent. Bah. Presently I just say, "Get the 121GW and be done with it.", then link them to Dave's reviews for each meter in the Store. Mainly because I really don't want to dive down the comparison/trade-off rabbit hole myself. Unfortunately, not everyone wants to watch hours of Dave before making a purchasing decision (he can be an acquired taste).I wish the EEVblog store had a feature/spec comparison matrix covering the meters carried, as well as some hobbyist use case suggestions for the higher-spec features.I've searched the Forum for such a store-based comparison but found nothing recent.Thoughts?Or should I just dump my newbies here?Should the Forum add a "Store" category?Thanks!

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 04:43:56 pm
content: Just redirect them to any of the existing threads. There are a ton of them. We don't need more.I personally would not get or advice to get an expensive meter unless you know you need it. And if you do, you would not be asking on a forum. Just get a cheap Uni-T and it will serve you well. Save money for a scope.Plus you ideally need more than one meter anyway, and buying two expensive ones gets expensive fast. So, start from a cheap, use it for a while. When you run into a need for another one, consider if the cheap one is missing something. If it does - get a more expensive one. Chances are that the cheap one works, so just get another cheap one.

author: Vovk_Z
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 05:05:40 pm
content: Unit UT-61E fit em all.

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 05:17:37 pm
content: I agree with recommending the 121GW. Sure it's got some minor quirks, but those are offset by the number of great features that arenot found on most meters in it's price range. It has become my favorite over all my Flukes and Brymens. We all develop our own favorites, as they will too, but I doubt they will ever regret getting a EEVBLOG121GW.

author: BobC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 07:07:16 pm
content: I have several meters, but unless I'm going outdoors, I always grab my 121GW. And outdoor use is generally to check various AC and DC lines (lighting, solar, breakers, sensors, cameras, etc.), so I grab my cheap CM210E AC/DC clamp meter.When it comes to the better vs. cheaper tradeoff, scopes almost always force beginners to go cheap. Since scopes can easily drift out of cal faster than multimeters (and are pretty much always out of cal if bought used), and since beginner hobbyists never keep calibrations current, having a quality new multimeter makes a cheap scope more useful.I also recommend the cheapest power supplies with adequate safety features, as many beginners still manage to at least try to smoke them. Again, a decent multimeter makes a cheap supply more useful, especially one that can measure power. Better supplies are for better labs.Still, this logic can be tough for beginners to wrestle through to reach purchase decisions. I don't want to discourage that journey (it's gonna happen anyway, sooner or later), but I don't want it to prevent getting that first home lab up and running.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: BobC on September 28, 2022, 04:23:15 pmIf they don't want to accept that the right answer is always the Aneng AN8008 ($27 at Amazon) they should create their own spreadsheet of features and accuracies versus product and price. They will be able to see which meters, with which features, cost how much. Manufacturer reputation (like Fluke or Keysight) might be important.Some meters have really poor accuracy and the one thing to hope for in a DMM is accuracy of measurement. Having the appropriate number of scales is also helpful. Conversion count is also important. The higher the number the more digits in the display.In times gone by, I would recommend the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 as the best way to get started. Then along came Covid and Digilent went to opportunistic pricing and it was hard to recommend at the new and improved higher price. They finally recognized there was a problem so now they give a $200 discount on the AD2 if you buy a minimum $100 FPGA board. Under some conditions, this might be a good deal.There are limitations, of course, but what's not to like about a dual channel Arbitrary Waveform Generator, dual channel Oscilloscope, dual channel Power Supply, 16 bits of Digital IO and software tools for display as well as math operations like FFT and Bode' plots. All the usual protocol decoding is also included. Considering that the user will eventually want 3 DMMs, the AD2 can provide 2 of them.https://digilent.com/shop/analog-discovery-2-100ms-s-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/The Waveforms software can be downloaded for free and includes a Demo device to allow for playing with the various instruments. At the discounted price of $200 (plus $100+ for an FPGA board) this thing is back to being a bargain. If you need an FPGA board...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 09:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 28, 2022, 08:51:33 pmI've got one and it has horrendous viewing angles. Staring from the bottom, the brightness increases until about 45 degrees. Then it decreases down to literally nothing looking straight up or slightly from above and then it goes inverted and washed out.I'm not sure this is just my unit or representative of all of them. If this is typical, I'm not sure I would recommend it. I like the size a lot, but the screen is unbearable. UT136B, which I use as a daily driver is just slightly bigger, but its display remains readable at any angle.I've got it right when it came out, so it is possible that they updated the display since then. It would be great if owners of more recent units can confirm this.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 09:14:12 pm
content: Quote from: BobC on September 28, 2022, 04:23:15 pmIf you dump them here, ask them to please use the Search feature first. This question comes up at least twice a month (in the Beginner's section alone, I don't visit the Test Equipment forum very often) and has been debated to death. To be fair, the Uni-T UT-61E comes up fairly often. I always throw in the Aneng AN8008. Others will disagree.There are two applicable stickies in the Test Equipment forum. One has info on 80 manufacturers and 400 meters and the other posts the results of transient testing.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 09:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 28, 2022, 09:07:54 pmWithout a bit of precision measuring, I can see my meter from 45 degrees left, right and bottom low. Top low fades at about 30 degrees. In my use case I hadn't even noticed a problem.I have a gaggle of DMMs but the AN8008 is the one I reach for. No good reason, really, I have both of the eevBlog meters sitting right next to it but I guess I like the size. My Fluke 189 hardly ever gets used and the Vichy VC99 clone is similarly located in a closet.https://www.ebay.com/p/1100238686?iid=122013053316Not a bad meter for the price!

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 10:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: BobC on September 28, 2022, 04:23:15 pmI hate to say this but you get what you pay for.If you dont want to spend too much money at the very least pay around $20 USD because anything less than that is going to be not so good. If you can go to $50 to $100 you can get a decent meter for that. If you want something really good shoot for $250 or more. For $500 you can get a really good meter.You may want to compare functionalities too and what you might intend to do with the meter. If you just want to measure DC voltages you can get by with almost anything, but AC voltages other than power line voltages get tricky because some meters will measure only up to maybe 400Hz while others will go up into the kilohertz range. Have to check the specs.If you want a meter with a traceable calibration record you can get that in the more expensive meters but it costs extra.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 02:26:05 am
content: Quote from: BobC on September 28, 2022, 04:23:15 pmQuote from: BobC on September 28, 2022, 04:23:15 pmThat was my usual answer to any of the flame wars that used to happen w.r.t. burden voltage. The 121GW has this nice feature, but it is expensive and IMO does not have the same value proposition as other manufacturers such as Brymen.Quote from: BobC on September 28, 2022, 04:23:15 pmThe most comprehensive multimeter feature spreadsheet is a sticky in the "Test Equipment" category:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/

author: BobC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 03:09:18 pm
content: The key thing I seek is to let beginners AVOID comparing the entire universe, and instead do their first important equipment selection within a curated scope, which the EEVblog store provides.Plus, to introduce them to EEVblog and this forum.Thanks to your replies, I think this question itself will suffice as a decent initial landing target for the start of their personal lab journey.Remember, these are beginner engineers, minds filled with differential equations and engineering statistics, able to use staggeringly complex design tools, yet with limited experience when it comes to mensuration, reverse engineering, troubleshooting, hacking/kluging, and similar hands-on skills.Many desire these hands-on skills (they enjoy my tales of being an electronics/electromechanical tech in the Navy and through university, then being a hands-on embedded/real-time software/systems engineer), but they generally haven't yet come up with ideas for their initial personal hardware projects to pursue (software projects abound). This is where things get fun, where they get to see how a little lab can go a long way toward doing larger things.Ideally, their labs will grow with their projects, where they learn to balance their limited hobby funds between building their lab and building their projects, and also to learn to select their projects based on the lab they have. Many new engineers see equipment constraints as frustrations, rather than as opportunities to do more with less (for which I have more stories).Bottom line, I don't want these students and new grads to become cogs in the employment machine with their scope defined by the job, but to also see themselves as able to change the immediate world around them, on their own, whenever the desire or need arises.While I often have jobs that are so much fun that it feels like I'm getting paid to do my hobby, when the jobs aren't that fun I tend to see them as a means to fund my home lab and projects. Which for me has proven to be the best way to view my career, especially when it comes to managing my career. Having a home lab keeps me hungry to seek employment that is like my hobby, but with money flowing in the opposite direction.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 05:49:21 pm
content: Quote from: BobC on September 29, 2022, 03:09:18 pmAnd this might be their first, but certainly not their last, new meter. Pick something that is inexpensive and play with it. Learn which features are useful and which simply don't matter. The second meter can be a step up, and so on.Here is a video where w2aew is using two expensive Fluke meters and a venerable Simpson 260. See, I said the hobbyist would need 3 meters.https://youtu.be/xR0RfmmRhDwOr, buy either of the eevBlog meters and support the effort. That's pretty much what I did but I bought them both. They're both excellent meters.And, to be a bit more realistic, we would need the budget before even beginning a discussion. Are we talking cheap (<=$50), modest (<=$200) or totally outrageous (the sky is the limit)? The Fluke 289 runs about $730! The Aneng AN8008 is around $40. Their performance is not equivalent!They would be better off conserving money on the DMM and using it toward a scope (Siglent SDS 1204X-E) which will run about $655 at Amazon. 200 MHz and 4 channels - a popular scope and very capable. Were I looking for another scope, this is the one! There are other Siglents with lower bandwidth and fewer channels. like the SDS1102X for $499. Then there is the Rigol DS1054Z unlocked to 100 MHz with 4 channels (details elsewhere) for $429 (Amazon prices). I have this one, it works well...It's easier to spend someone else's money!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 05:58:23 pm
content: While I'm on a roll... Even if there was some kind of consensus on meters at various price points (and there won't be), local availability skews the utility of such a list. Better for folks to scour their area for availability and then run a spreadsheet of capabilities versus cost. Drive a stake in the ground for budget. That limits the number of rows in the spreadsheet.When Dave reviews a meter, he usually discusses capabilities and clearly points out the things that are missing. His AN8008 review is an example of this. Some current ranges are missing. That's not a show stopper for me but it might be for some other folks. When looking at accuracy, remember that you are likely using 5%-10% components.https://youtu.be/xdGQEVdxmQQ

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 06:03:22 pm
content: Get one that you like the look of - I've predominantly bought using this method, and have no complaints. I do not find GW121 so appealing, but its definitely quirky.[ed to add a pic]

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 03:59:42 am
content: I would recommend a secondhand Fluke handheld DMM.My 77 is ancient, but still hangs in there with the best of them for general work.OK, it tops out at around 1kHz on ac volts, but I wouldn't trust many inexpensive DMMs to give sensibly readings at much higher, & really, you are then getting into 'scope territory.In almost all of my fault finding, I reach for an oscilloscope first, as it shows you so much more information.High voltage scale accuracy is often much less important than the ability to see if a voltage is "in the ballpark", which a 'scope does admirably.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 06:15:21 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 28, 2022, 09:07:54 pmThat is interesting — my AN8008, which is also fairly early (I think) has a fantastic LCD. It actually impressed me because of how much darker the segments are than on my Fluke. With that said, I don’t recall comparing them on viewing angle, so I’ll leave open the possibility that I need to check again when I get home.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 06:26:12 am
content: Quote from: BobC on September 28, 2022, 04:23:15 pmHonestly, they should just start with a good basic meter like the BM235 or AN8008/8009, and then when they outgrow it, hopefully they’ll also have understood what exactly they need out of their next meter. The problem here is that right now, they almost certainly don’t know what they need, so you’ll be discussing in circles.I also doubt that most of them need a uCurrent (whether standalone or built into the 121GW), at least at the start.(Or tell the ones who are making lots of money to treat themselves to a Fluke 87V/87V Max/28II. It’s probably not the optimal meter, but they are extremely nice, and reliable. I didn’tneedan 87V when I treated myself to one, but I don’t regret it for a second, and it remains a joy to use every time.)What I don’t think anyone should be recommending for home labs now are Keysight handheld meters. They’re no cheaper than Fluke, but IMHO have more quirks/bugs, and massively inferior warranties. (And that’s if they even decide to honor their warranty to consumers, which appears to be in question now.)Another option worth considering is used bench meters. For about the same price as a new, midrange big-brand handheld, one can get a fantastic used bench meter. My most-used meter of all is my Keithley 2015. As a bench meter it’s always set up and ready to go, and the thing is an unmitigated joy to use. I’m now totally spoiled when it comes to multimeter speed, thanks to it.In most measurements, it’s displayed the value in less time than most handhelds need just to autorange! It’s kinda magical to measure things and just have no lag at all.)

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 09:09:06 am
content: For a beginner my approach would be to check in which environment the meter is used, so that I could be sure that no CAT III or above zone is ticked.(I also work with people in electrics, like apprentices, that work in this field)If the meter will only be used in small electronics circuits, and maybe occasionally for the repair of some household appliance, I always would tell people to go for at least some build quality and not the crappiest el cheapo stuff around. This means that for a beginner some roughly 40$ DMM is fine to make the first steps working with it.This leaves some room for additional stuff like test leads and probes and such.And after the first experiences the folks will know what the would need to further develop their craft- and then the 40$ DMM they have will play the role of second DMM you always need sometimes to check things out.The whole dreaded "830" series of crappy chinese stuff etc. should be avoided, though- this is junk that will not make anyone happy.My stance is to go for some multimeter models that are used to a certain point by other folks, like Uni-T or Aneng. This ensures that there are lots of people there that know and understand the characteristics (and shortcomings) of them. And here some Uni-T 61 series would probably check all the boxes a beginner will be able to use and utilize- other than that, there are some other manufacturers and relabelling brands such as Voltcraft in germany, that also provide some decent gear in this price range.Going used is also no bad idea, if the equipment is in good condition, but in this case one has the risk of getting worn out equipment.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 09:04:43 pm
content: "Start with a decent multimeter" - I'm a few years in and quite a few handheld multimeters in but today I can now start with a decent one, courtesy of a forum member [buy, sell, wanted]

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 09:49:33 pm
content: Well, decency is always a bit related to the environment ;-)And yes, nice bench meter I also would like to have on my bench, no question.But depending on the tasks at hand, I see basically two somewhat sustainable strategies for beginners:a) Buy some lower-end and lower-specced device, that is not utter crap and works reliably within the specifications and upgrade later to the real deal, when the person is advancing in the fieldb) buy some known good-quality stuff, that is widely used by other people and has earned a good reputationIn the case of someone who works mainly on electronic circuits with low voltages, and maybe some power supplies and comparable stuff, there is no big risk of transients and other issues that might happen- therefore CATIII or above is not necessary. And then lots of the 40-50 (€€€ or $$$) devices in the online shops will do the job well without problems.In case b), it is nice to be able to spend some money on multimeters like the Fluke 87V, which is commonly regarded as a good quality DMM, or maybe the Brymen 786 EEVBlog edition- those surely will be more than adequate for stuff that a beginner does, and will last some time.So, if someone has the money ready to spend, well, no problem in going for these multimeters, but with a bit of thought they could get more bang for buck.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 10:37:36 pm
content: Are these people have mulitmeter supplied by the employer when they are at work? If so they can judge for themselves if that particular meter is good for them.

author: taste_tester
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2022, 01:17:41 am
content: That $30 Kaiweets HT118A multimeter there are a billion Youtube videos and reviews of are great, and they go on sale for $20 from time to time. Very good meter with dual display, i think it's very good. For that money, no need to spend hours upon hours comparing cheap ones.