This plug socket tells you if your energy is green - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2022, 10:07:13 am
content: Ye,wha?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-61030903I swear people are really, honestly starting to believe the nation grid has two big buckets, one full of green energy and one full of fossil fuel energy and that suppliers can pick and choose for you.Reality 100% of the renewables are already consumed, 100% of the time. There is no surplus. So you can't "switch" "to" green energy, the best you can do is tell people when a certain percentage is coming from renewables. However, if everyone then turns stuff on, that percentage will rapidly fall.... and they will switch off again, exactly what the grid does NOT need!The concept of proven purchase of "green energy" is not exactly regulated that well. It can be offset, run negative, get defered etc. It's probably already corrupt too, knowing the UK regulators.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2022, 08:23:48 pm
content: I'll just wait until Big Clive gets one of these and takes it apart.If it gains any popularity, knockoffs will be selling on Aliexpress.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2022, 08:35:01 pm
content: The "greenest" thing you can do is to avoid energy in the 4-7pm peak as much as possible. That would save almost as much emissions as any other behavior. Yet, it's very rarely promoted.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2022, 09:04:06 pm
content: I've been joking with colleagues for years that we're going to make this exact product and sell it to gullible hipsters.Seems we were beaten to it 😄

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2022, 09:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 10, 2022, 08:35:01 pmQuite a few utilities are charging more for peak time use.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2022, 09:58:11 pm
content: most sockets tell you when the power is green, it is usually called "OFF"

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2022, 10:59:11 pm
content: How long before new EU/US regulations, mean that everything that connects to or plugs into the mains, has to have such a device fitted. I.e. The Electricity supply organisations, can decide to turn various things (loads), in your own homes, off, e.g. at peak times. With the householders, being unable (legally), to do anything about it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2022, 11:52:08 pm
content: Don't give them ideas.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 12:17:03 am
content: Quotesmart meters already give them this capability

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 12:20:00 am
content: With the comments in the video, and especially that the device itself consumes tiny amounts of power to even operate, why isn't this topic in the dodgy technology section of the forum?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 01:17:05 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on April 11, 2022, 12:17:03 amWell no, that gives them control over the entire installation. Which they won't exercise because they would be liable for any injury which could occur as the result of loss of power.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 01:49:04 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 11, 2022, 01:17:05 amHopefully you're right, but that's interesting, as that would mean they would be liable in case of any power loss due to the grid, which does happen occasionally. Are they? Or are they not in this case, just because they can prove it's for instance due to an external factor that's beyond their control? And is it always the case?That aside, even if they can't do this, that still gives them the opportunity to have a power consumption profile for each installation, and decide to, for instance, change the price, not just depending on fixed hours for everyone, but personalized depending on your own profile entirely - you could for instance be paying a lot more all the time, because your power consumption profile is considered not "green" enough.But that's just the tip of the iceberg. It may just be a matter of a decade until power grids become "smart" enough that every appliance connected to them can be uniquely identified, and then they could definitely decide to deny access to power to some appliance depending on its power rating, hour of day, etc. Fun days ahead. =)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 02:50:18 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 11, 2022, 01:49:04 amI think the difference between a fault or error and an intentional act is pretty clear.QuoteAbsolutely. Technology remains a double edged sword.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 05:05:12 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 11, 2022, 01:17:05 amNever heard of rolling blackouts?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_blackoutIts great if you aren't one of the blacked out group! Giving finer grained control is a win, losing your HVAC in winter when its well below freezing is much more serious than losing your refrigerator, or lighting, or plasma TV, or [other nice to have appliance]. Zero HVAC can be an actual threat to life (given how poorly people insulate their houses.... another rant), cold more so than heat, but excess heat is also a threat to life particularly for the old/infirm.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 12:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on April 11, 2022, 05:05:12 amI would like to see the option for people to get paid to be the first in line to get shut off. Last year, I had the option to get backup power from my car but that went unused because it would cost more than just charging batteries from the grid when it was up.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 01:10:55 pm
content: It's one of those things, I would love to have true half-hourly variable pricing. At least 65% of my load can be shifted into the night (car charging, dishwasher, tumble dryer, electric hot-water heater, etc.) If the price of that can be kept low enough, then daily cost is not that significant, only the power for computers, lights, etc. - about 300W. I could then add a battery to shift that daily load into the night time period too, or maybe rely on solar power if I get that installed.But this really doesn't favour people who have zero interest in doing this.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 01:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 11, 2022, 01:10:55 pmYou apparently can (I haven't looked into it in any detail recently, and don't know your precise details, so there could be various snags), here is a link to it:https://octopus.energy/agile/

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 01:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on April 11, 2022, 01:21:47 pmYou're right, I forgot about Agile! And I do already have partially time-of-use pricing via Octopus, where it drops to 5.5p/kWh after 8.30pm until 1.30am. Would be good to see other providers doing this.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 03:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on April 11, 2022, 05:05:12 amThose are scheduled. Also, we don't do them.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 05:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 11, 2022, 02:50:18 amIf things were that clear and simple, I would probably have not written the above.Sure if there's an "external factor" as I mentioned, such as some accident, natural catastrophe, etc, no problem.But have you heard about load shedding, which is being routinely done during peaks of consumption? It absolutely *is* intentional. The fact it's for the "greater good" of the network doesn't change that. Otherwise, shutting down installations individually (when energy companies are already allowed to do it for groups of installations) is merely a tiny step away. All they need is to prove that taking individual measures is for the greater good of the whole grid.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-06/what-is-load-shedding-and-how-does-it-work/11650096

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 06:04:29 pm
content: QuoteEvery time I see and hear that word my annoyance levels go up.I am seeing that word used more and more... smart this smart thatAnyway two lights isn't going to tell me much about this energy.It could mean anything without seeing the details.Sounds to me like a guilt trip they might be pulling on those who buy it and get taken in.I have a "Current cost meter" with serial port and cables I got second hand many years.That tells me a figure of what is high and low and I can set the pence per kwh unit if I wanted to and not by some stupid lights that tells me b*gger all like what was on those crap shop brought alien faced battery chargers that I use to see selling 20 years ago.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Current-Cost-ENVI-CC128-Electricity-monitor-White/dp/B002FVJA5IDon't see the word "SMART" in this listing.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 07:42:44 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 11, 2022, 05:59:44 pmAgain, we don't do that. We have a functional grid.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 09:23:29 pm
content: I'm curious how much energy is being used to maintain that control center. Looks like just another intrusive solution looking for a problem.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 09:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: Ground_Loop on April 11, 2022, 09:23:29 pmProbably not much more, than they are managing to save.Although stated in jest, I quietly suspect it may indeed be the reality. At their offices/premises, how much does all the lighting, PCs, Servers, Electronics, Air-conditioning, Heating, etc use, compared to the (presumably) modest/slight savings in electricity per socket ?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 09:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on April 11, 2022, 09:45:13 pmreminds me of thishttps://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/this-new-eco-gym-is-powered-by-your-workout

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 10:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 11, 2022, 03:00:49 pmIn the UK, you do them but scheduled. Elsewhere they do happen without schedule. Nice attempt at a run-on sentence to make a misleading point. Actual facts limiting to just the UK:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Weekhttp://www7.bbk.ac.uk/mce/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/MCE-Disruption-Finding-Sheet.pdfhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-17/u-k-s-green-push-leaves-country-at-the-mercy-of-the-weatherA history of planning ahead and introducing behaviour change in the population, and a predicted shortfall needing some solution in the coming years (has been "predicted" as being this year/next year for many years now, but never seems to arrive in force). Do you have evidence large industrial or commercial users aren't accepting short notice curtailment contracts? I bet they are. Around the world residential consumers are somewhere in the middle of the electricity priority queue, big customers often have penalty clauses so can be blacked out with agreed compensation (usually having negotiated lower pricing for the rest of the year).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2022, 11:04:05 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on April 11, 2022, 10:51:07 pmPlease tell me the date of the last rolling blackout in the UK. Also, please explain how a scheduled rolling blackout is equivalent to cutting an individual customer off without knowledge of their circumstances.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 01:38:17 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 11, 2022, 11:04:05 pmTrying to walk this further away from the actual point? Well there is a well documented case of the 9th of August 2019:https://www.eprg.group.cam.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/2006-Text1.pdfPoor granularity of demand control, leading to a widespread blackout. The automatic load shedding was an emergency response to maintain stability of the grid, in a non-granular fashion by indiscriminately (and without warning/scheduling) dumping a large group of customers into a blackout. Want to argue its not rolling because it was only a single on-off event? Go back to the original quote:Quote from: Someone on April 11, 2022, 05:05:12 amGranular+fast control right down to the house or appliance level would have massively improved that specific example, in recent history, within the UK. Thats a whole lot of constraints, and still correct/true. In a more general sense such granular load control is very useful/valuable and will be a net win for most consumers.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 01:49:07 am
content: E: On second thought, why bother. You'll twist anything for an argument.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 04:33:23 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 11, 2022, 10:51:07 pmBring that as an option to residential as an incentive to invest in some sort of backup power.

author: djococaud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 06:00:44 am
content: Actually the plug could be decoding the peak/off peak hours signal (on top of the 50-60Hz mains)...It just needs a small microcontroller......But It can also be a complete scam (with a random powered led...) !Please send one to clive !

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 08:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: djococaud on April 12, 2022, 06:00:44 amMost likely it has a wifi module in it and it's tied to GridCarbon or similar.https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/alex.rogers/gridcarbon/

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 08:47:24 pm
content: Quote from: djococaud on April 12, 2022, 06:00:44 amI also wonder, how many people in a household, are actually going to bother to take notice of the colour changes, on the LED.If you want something done, such as switching on a radio, charging your mobile phone, shaving, hairdryer, PC use, etc. A person is rather likely to just want to get it done and not want to wait around for this tiny LED light, to decide to turn green, maybe, later that day.I suppose what is really needed, is the device itself, such as a dishwasher or washing machine. To have an option, which when on (set), doesn't start the units wash cycle, until the cheapest electricity units (usually off-peak), are available.The button/feature would be called something like "Delay start, until low cost, GREEN Electricity, is available" - ECONO WASH CYCLES.I suspect the success rate, of a small red/green LED, showing the best times (Green electricity, off-peak, etc), to switch on, would only be successful, perhaps 10% or 20% of the time.But, it would probably be close to that way, without all the smarty pants mains sockets and stuff, through sheer timing luck, anyway.I.e. Sometimes people would switch something on during peak-time, and others off-peak, just through sheer coincidences.So the actual possible savings, could be rather minute, at best. Unless it is an extremely green/eco orientated person/family.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 09:31:11 pm
content: The only point made here that confused me, is around avoiding using energy during peak times.Why?I mean, yes, that helps your pocket if your supplier offers you the discount to use power "out of hours".But that says nothing about the environmental aspects of the generation, it's purely economical. Power stations have one purpose. If they are not generating power they are losing money. So, it makes sense for them to run all night long offering a discount to temp people to use it. Rather than shut down a few or all turbines overnight.Whether they generate it a tea time or at 3am, it's still generated the same way. Actually peak time in summer is far, far more likely to be high solar output times.Moving your heavier loads to the wee hours probably ends up costing more environmentally in the long run.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 10:05:08 pm
content: Peak time energy is generally worse because it's supplied by less efficient 'peaker plants' - either they are open-cycle gas turbines or they are closed-cycle gas turbines, but are started up only for the peak time, which reduces their efficiency. Also, in some cases, it's supplied by oil or diesel, especially if demand is beyond original estimations.In general, in the UK at least, there's a bias towards using renewables, but they are currently only able to provide a significant amount of power during the off-peak periods (with some exceptions for very sunny summer days with lots of wind at 5pm.)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 10:46:30 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on April 12, 2022, 09:31:11 pmYou forget that it is a commodity market, a consumer doesn't care who produced the electricity, its interchangeable. Being a market (auctions/bidding/trading) the price paid for electricity varies depending on supply and demand. When its windy the UK can see an excess of power being generated and the price paid collapses (even negative). That can end up lower than the marginal cost of fuel to power a conventional power plant. This makes the people who invested in baseload generation unhappy as they expected to be running all the time like you imagine, spreading out the fixed/capital/investment costs over more hours of live operation. So their profitability goes down, and they need to get higher prices when operating to break even.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 09:30:50 am
content: The UK running an excess of wind energy only happens in limited geographic areas when the moon, stars and harry potters wand all line up!Scotland has over produced a few times, due to warm sunny weekend days with lots of wind.... everyone's out for the day, no body has heating on, lots of solar and wind, so for an hour or two Scotland is literally paying people to take power off them so they don't need to shut things down.Shutting down, powering up plants takes a lot of time. Spinning them on the grid idling is more likely what they do, maintaining the 50Hz heartbeat if nothing else. But nobody wants to see a Scottish 1950s power nuclear reactor venting turbine steam to not over run it's turbines and allow the wind turbines their "hay day".I'm fairly sure those "over production" events include the nuclear base load as it's "non carbon"

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 09:40:51 am
content: On "Smart" crap.In the 1990s, if you bought a washing machine or dishwasher et. al. it had a big knob on it, spring latched power switches and you could set the program, load the thing and later just switch it on at the wall and away it would go.In the 2000s they have "soft power", microcontrollers, control state machines and literally force physical interaction to run the thing. If you switch it off and then back on an hour later, it is extremely unlikely it will pick up where it left off and carry on.So, my prediction of where this is going...By the mid 2020s almost all "heavy powered" home appliances will have a cloud/wifi/smart gubbins installed. This will feature the ability to turn them on remotely, or even on schedule and many more glorious things. However, hotpoint will have their system, bosch will have some crazy german system, google and amazon will team up with philips and zanussi and all of these devices send ALL your habbits and data back to the cloud. All your devices become susceptible to hacking.The by 2030s the energy providers, the regulators and thus the gubberment will get involved, maybe slowly introducing incentives to subscribe to load management schemes. "Allow us to schedule your Class A and B devices this fall and get 20% off your off-peak kWh rate!"By 2040 I doubt it will be a choice. Hopefully if it has to be manditory we have a sensible gubberment that does not privatise it and therefore make it something only the rich can do... run high power electric devices whenever they want... or at all.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 12:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on April 13, 2022, 09:30:50 amThe UK doesn't have enough wind power to run in excess, ever. So not sure what your point is?The grid is slowly reducing its dependence on fossil fuels. This chart summarises it pretty well:Whilst I'm skeptical of the 2025 claim that we'll be fossil-fuel free for some days, I think 2035 is probably achievable.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 12:41:09 pm
content: On the continue when power fails, I bought a new Defy washing machine, which actually will carry on the cycle when the power fails, and comes back. What can I say other than "Designed in South Africa", where rotational load shedding is a way of life, and water shedding is also really common. Currently the city i live in is no longer getting load shedding, mostly because more than half the electric grid just was taken out by a cyclone that moved through, and thus the city is already well down in power consumption. Unfortunately also massive damage as well, and if you were expecting a RHD Toyota in the next 3 months, sorry, they are all under 1m or so of water, along with most of the Toyota assembly line.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 01:04:14 pm
content: My Bosch dishwasher is the same. It remembers after a power cut to automatically resume. The Indesit washing machine on the other hand does not.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2022, 10:05:54 pm
content: What if we made 60Hz be dirty power and then run 45Hz green power and put band reject filters on everything? Or run DC and AC and put coupling caps on stuff. That might work.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2022, 12:01:15 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 14, 2022, 10:05:54 pmwhat would be the point? as long as there isn't more green power than the total need for power, you using green power just means more "non-green" power needs to be generated to meet demands

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2022, 12:42:59 am
content: The point is to pretend we are doing something good.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2022, 04:01:22 am
content: What I find most exasperating is that it is obvious that most people posting on this topic haven't at least watched the video (that is less than 3 minutes long). If ignorance is bliss, then there's a lot of really happy people here.There are some points worth discussing, but they are decidedly absent - so far.