Moog "25% Tariff On Chinese Goods Threatens Our Jobs" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: maiekmire
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 01:54:10 am
content: Employee owned Moog is making a power move to become an "affordable" instrument manufacturer. Company statement below:https://mailchi.mp/moogmusic/peterdyerimpressions-764269?e=60916b840a

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 03:30:01 am
content: the tariff should be more...moog buying products from a country that unfairly competes against the rest of the world markets.unfair practices:Technology Theft - i'm sure we ahve all read about and know aobut thatstate-owned enterprises - yes the government owns and backs businesses, and will do whatever it takes to beat out the foreign competition, basically putting them out of businesscurrency manipulation. - yep they manipulate the worth of their currency to get trade advantages.lower safety standards for workers (lowering overhead) - just google the videosexport tax rebates up to 17% (bet moog didn't know that)lower emission controls - lower energy/transportation costs due to that. - in many cities, you literally can't see across the street during the day. don't believe it, google it, or ask anyone who has lived there, meanwhile, the rest of the world is paying through the nose for cleaner emissions.lower standards of living for workers. - lower competitive wages compared to other countries because... they can.this is just naming a few, there are other systemic policies like forcing companies to do technology transfers just to do business in the country and, forcing companies with plants in China to set up r&d facilities in the country.meanwhile, the USA is running a trade deficit of 566 billion dollars a year, and running up our national debt, and our us industries have been closing due to the pressure caused by companies like Moog buying Chinese, thinking they are able to produce a cheaper product for the consumer, while at the same time helping put that same consumer out of a job or lowering their standard of living due to growing capital loss from the country..China is systemically taking advantage of the US capitalist society and we are buying the rope to hang ourselves with from China among others.so, frankly, if that's the only source, or you cant source it cheaper elsewhere, then pay the 25% and increase the costs of your goods.or .. hey .. a radical thought...perhaps buy American!moog, don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution... think ahead and not in the immediate. help dig your country out of a hole. Think about the rest of the country and not just yourself!don't worry moog, your products can survive a markup ... and with the export rebates, the Chinese government gives your suppliers and manufacturers, the actual impact to you will likely be e closer to 10% and that just of the Chinese supplied items. unless your products are 100% Chinese sourced, your cost increases should be minimal.man up!

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 03:52:36 am
content: i just read more on Moogs website... and from their website.."These tariffs will immediately and drastically increase the cost of building our instruments, and have the very real potential of forcing us to lay off workers and could (in a worst case scenario) require us to move some, if not all, of our manufacturing overseas. ""Roughly half of the circuit boards and associated components for Moog’s instruments come from China. This tariff would significantly limit their ability to manufacture synthesizers, and could put many of their employee-owners out of a job.""Moog sources circuit boards from US suppliers whenever possible, paying up to 30% over the price of the same circuit boards made overseas. However, whether they buy circuit boards in the US or overseas, the majority of the raw components still come from China. Therefore, Moog will be unable to avoid this substantial cost increase because of the tariffs."ok so... seriously, i am losing some respect for Moog, and I've not looked inside a modern Moog, but i am now imagining cheap Chinese capacitors and off-brand ic's or even counterfeit ic's and off-brand jacks and pots and so on.also, i find it disheartening, instead of maybe losing some sales.. (Moog isn't going to be displaced with some other brand if you want a Moog, you are going to buy a Moog) due to price increases, they're willing to throw fellow employees under the bus and move to manufacture outside the usa, putting there US employees out fo jobs. is this what American business has become, an employee-owned business putting fellow workers out of jobs to make themselves a few more dollars? or is this just Moog?capitalism at its best ... I am ashamed.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 04:59:57 am
content: thanks for that good and honest perspective.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 05:21:05 am
content: I'm not very PC either, I call it the way I see it... I prefer that then some BS posturing.I don't think many Americans see how this is all viewed from a Chinese perspective, it was a great response.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 07:16:05 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2018, 04:23:48 amGreat post Bo, a really eyes opener, much appreciated.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 07:44:08 am
content: I seriously dont understand this logic. PCB cost is some 4-5% of the BOM of the PCBA, much less in case of the entire product. 25% of that is about 1%. Are they bitching about having to increase the price by 1%?Not to mention, in my calculation it is typically not worth it, to move just the PCB production to china.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 08:19:02 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2018, 04:35:24 amIn general the USA promotes invention, innovation and creativity. It has been part of their culture for centuries. But the USA also steals IP...https://blog.patentology.com.au/2012/04/story-behind-csiros-wi-fi-patent.html. To bad Chairman Mao's Little Red Book never said it was wrong to steal IP.Those who invent, innovate and create deserve the rewards. The those who knowingly steal IP deserve a bullet to the head, life in jail and/or all of their assets stripped, and/or damages paid. Teach the bastards a lesson.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 08:27:28 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on June 30, 2018, 08:19:02 amI guess you mean those thieves that stole the inventions like gun powder, compass, paper and etc, right ?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 09:01:16 am
content: Moog are a dying brand fighting against better located instrument manufacturers, far more versatile instruments and software. They are complaining because someone is already eating them and they need an exit plan. Whining is the exit plan so far.Edit: just as a point I’ve got a 20 year old Triton with MOSS and it shits on anything Moog produce today. Moog have basically tweakers and rich people as customers only and they both want value these days. They’re selling nostalgia more than anything else.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 09:28:41 am
content: As long as they put the same tarriff on the landfill that Behringer foists on the US and the rest of the world.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 09:41:23 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2018, 04:35:24 amAmen to that. IMHO the key is education to stay ahead.Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2018, 04:23:48 amThat is what all good parents should tell their daughter!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 09:51:19 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on June 30, 2018, 08:19:02 amThat is nothing but shameless patent trolling.https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/04/how-the-aussie-government-invented-wifi-and-sued-its-way-to-430-million/Quote

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 02:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 30, 2018, 09:01:16 amLike Uli Behringer who just recently sued DSI and 20 John Doe's anonymous Gearslutz users for slander and libel whenhis electronics products was criticized for quality and business practices, Uli lost in California court with a SLAPP rulin,good for him he needs to be firmly reminded of his oligarch mentality. DSI seeks 120k Usd i damage.https://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-have-sued-dave-smith-instruments-forum-posters-for-defamation/http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-threatens-legal-action-against-a-site-that-called-it-a-copycat/QuoteDont poke the "analog taliban purist" in the eye with a stick they have AR15's in their fiddle case!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 02:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: innkeeper on June 30, 2018, 05:21:05 amIf you cant defeat your enemey join em.And nooow, where did the 21 Trillion USD go i wonder!?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 02:29:45 pm
content: Quote from: MT on June 30, 2018, 02:26:24 pmThey’ll be too busy working out why their VCO is detuning suddenly to shoot me

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 03:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2018, 04:23:48 amIn India they spread the concept a woman should not marry a man who dont have toilet.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 03:46:19 pm
content: Good advice. Also a toilet in the right room. My mother in law married a man with a toilet in his living room (a builder). That didn’t work out well.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 04:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2018, 04:35:24 amThe problem with that kind of arguing is that's also the beliefs of any "next empire to be" , in particular the Chinese and the mentality (not only political elites but brain washed farming John Does) of having been insulted and concurred in the past, which is of course is "played out by the party" as "national drama trauma" a move that is abit silly if one digs into Chinese imperial past. I'm playing on the past history of Chinese kingdoms and empires.However phasing out USA the current Rome is intriguing idea i concur but in exchange for China? Well thats another thought. Silk road rev2 may not be such a great idea after all, simply because if everything is made in China the trade balance is not, same goes for AI if everything is AI then nobody have a earning due to lack of jobs to get it from, thenthe fiat currencies will lose all its credibility. Heck, all banks will go ape crap , thats a good thing.Lets not forget with empire building comes corruption cancer on all system levels China is one of the world masters in that.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 04:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 30, 2018, 09:41:23 amMen shouldn't marry a woman without a house. Or at least a solid dowry.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 04:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 30, 2018, 09:41:23 amYou mean parents should suggest their daughter to whore out to some older daddy? Because otherwise it would be a mortgage hanging on the neck of a young man. Which means not he owns the house but house owns him.BTW in China real estate is a ridiculously expensive low quality crap which won't last long. Not a good investment at all.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 05:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 30, 2018, 04:57:31 pmThem, not just him. Marriage generally means assuming financial risks together, even if you go the conservative route where the woman doesn't have a proper job.

author: maiekmire
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 05:06:36 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2018, 03:53:54 pmThe threat is already over.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 05:21:43 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 30, 2018, 07:44:08 amThe tariff applies to components, but not to finished products (last I read about it). This has the effect of making it more cost-effective to movemoreof the production activities into China. It's not about the PCB, but rather that sourcing US PCBs and doing assembly in the US means you pay 25% of the components that can be avoided if you import finished goods entirely from China.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 05:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on June 30, 2018, 05:21:43 pmI don't quite understand why anyone would think this helps domestic manufacturers, unless people believe electronics could suddenly be made entirely in the US. Even then is having super expensive equipment not helping the economy.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 05:56:47 pm
content: I don't think it was designed to make economic sense, but rather to make a political show without suffering the backlash of phones, TVs, and other consumer electronics getting visibly more expensive for consumers.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 06:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on June 30, 2018, 05:56:47 pmExactly. Taxing consumer goods would cause a backlash from both major manufacturers and consumers which would probably end the matter quite quickly.The worrying part is that this alternative has been fielded. It seems to be a no win proposition. Domestic manufacturers are still hurt. There doesn't seem to be a scenario where there are gains to be had, other than possible short term political ones. If the latter is the intended consequence of the whole thing, it's even more worrying.Maybe there is some diversion planned when results start surfacing that it's hurting the economy?

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 06:35:47 pm
content: frankly, part of my reply to the Moog post was to call them out on totalbullshit. all the way around!!the parts costs are a very small part of the overall costs of the product. I will not say insignificant, but, take something as simple as an effects peddle, there's probably all of 4 dollars in parts in there, and the cost for a case and so on, lets give them the benefit of the doubt and call it 20 bucks in parts... retail that device sells for 299. their price to distributors might be closer to 150. ... which means the bulk of their costs has to be in labor, and other overhead. increasing of parts cost by 25% would increase the wholesale cost by 5 bucks, and maybe 10 bucks at retail in this example. and that's assuming 100% sourced Chinese parts and hardware.Secondly, i don't believe that Moog is using so many chinse parts from a cost perspective, id believe there using quality Japanese capacitors, and alps pots, high-quality switches for durability and so on. their reputation depends on the quality of their product, thee not going to risk that on some cheap Chinese jack. there going to use Switchcraft or Neutrik or Amphenol.Lastly and employee-owned company is not going to fire themselves to hire people overseas to produce a product for the sake of a few dollars in parts cost difference.so yea... i call them on this.. id love them to estimate out there real bom costs and cost difference on a product with a 25% increase on their Chinese sourced items.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 06:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: innkeeper on June 30, 2018, 06:35:47 pmThe "cheap Chinese jack" denotes a mistake many people seem to make. If you have a cheap Chinese jack it simply means you weren't prepared to shell out for a decent Chinese jack. The Chinese can and do manufacture excellent stuff, but the fact that we're mainly familiar with the cheapest and crustiest junk says everything about our buying habits, but much less about their manufacturing.It's the US population that voted with its wallet, despite feverish efforts to shift the responsibility to the Chinese.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 07:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 30, 2018, 06:58:30 pmI don't think you know what you are talking about. ...what the brand specifically?this is a brand driven market, and people look at the brand of the jack ... so seriously ..give me an example of a Chinese brand XRL jack manufacturer that's acceptable to the music community?let me save you the trouble, there is none.the point was as much about marketing as it was about known quality and known reliability ...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 07:26:42 pm
content: Neutrik stuff isn’t particularly reliable either. The amount of neutrik patch cables me and my daughter got through is insane. Roland ones which are “junk” according to this are much more reliable. And I’ve had to replace the branded 1/4” jacks on my Triton twice now.Also I got a beer can bounce off my head once thanks to valor of Christian Death slinging it angrily into the crowd after his neutrik XLR fell to bits. This descended into a beer can fight between stage hands, band members and audience.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 07:41:05 pm
content: I hear ya, but.. doesn't change the mindset.i'm an Amphenol fanboy myself

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 07:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: innkeeper on June 30, 2018, 07:23:16 pmYou seem to be consistently confusing manufacturers with manufacturing and that's quite crucial. Western or US companies have parts, assemblies and entire devices made in China. If it were just chancy Chinese manufacturers making even chancier connectors and selling them under their own brand name we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's the major brands who have their stuff manufactured in China and other low labour countries, including the stuff you would consider high quality.I like your attempt to move the goalposts by specifying a connector type you probably know well, but it's not going to fly. Let's have a discussion without resorting to tricks.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 08:06:15 pm
content: Quote from: innkeeper on June 30, 2018, 06:35:47 pmMy thoughts exactly, the components they would be getting from china.. which ones? passives? resistors? MLCCs? they shouldn't be more than 10% of the bom cost, so the actual price increase is negligible.I am sure that insurance utilites benefits and other expenses that comes from producing in america are a bigger cost than components and circuit boardsThe only thing i can agree with is that it is ridiculous that a governments would put a tax on raw materials (or in our case components) and not finished products, but i think that the end results of the moog letter will be- propaganda against trump- just a way to justify an increase of the products prices, just as they did when EUR/USD was lower last year. did they ever cut down prices after euro became stronger again?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 08:22:34 pm
content: Quote from: innkeeper on June 30, 2018, 07:41:05 pmhttps://www.amphenolrf.com/locations/QuoteQuote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 08:25:45 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 30, 2018, 08:06:15 pmHow about high reliability switches, connectors and potenciometrs which are way more expensive than stuff you mentioned.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 08:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 30, 2018, 08:06:15 pmBusinesses are generally profit driven, rather than a desire to engage in propaganda. It seems more likely this is actually hurting them and they're trying to stand up for themselves. We don't exactly know the intricacies of the Moog supply chain.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 03:25:33 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 30, 2018, 07:43:58 pmlol it not even the goalpost.. it is a total sidebar from the point I was making .. which has nothing to do with this, so i so don't care...

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 03:51:50 am
content: Quote from: Synthtech on June 30, 2018, 09:28:41 amAs I understand it, finished consumer products are exempt from these tariffs. This is a big handout to the big retailers and the brands that do all their manufacturing offshore. As usual.Read Bunnie's excellent blog post:https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5349

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 07:30:08 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 30, 2018, 09:41:23 amThis has been my contention for years, if you can't compete in a market without artificial aid/tariffs then your economy and you are better off out of it.Unfortunately that leaves people jobless and gives opportunity for people to play politics by stoking up hatred of other countries/peoples that 'steal our jobs'.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 08:13:23 am
content: Quote from: innkeeper on June 30, 2018, 07:41:05 pmI love Amphenol stuff too, lovely quality, the stuff that comes from the manufacturing plants in China, Korea, Brazil etc. is really good but y'know, good ole 'merkin company.MAGA and all that other nationalistic BS you seem to be mainlining

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 08:54:48 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 30, 2018, 08:44:36 pmHere, right now, "fighting trump" is worth more than selling products to some companies. He's not going to be impeached they may as well stop fighting and just wait for our next election. I guess people get bored though.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 09:24:07 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 01, 2018, 08:13:23 amdoesn't change the point on bom costs.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2018, 07:46:26 am
content: Quote from: innkeeper on July 01, 2018, 09:24:07 pmNope, it doesn't, you're right, it does however highlight the very nature of the world we live in, where a good quality product can be and is made outside the US.Why do you think Amphenol manufacture outside the US?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2018, 07:52:46 am
content: Quote from: CJay on July 02, 2018, 07:46:26 amCause they're traitor, they give the ultra secret recipe of super duper quality BNC or SMA connector manufacturing technique and it's metallurgy secret to foreign country.Trust me, some people I believe love to hear this kind of answer.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2018, 05:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 02, 2018, 07:46:26 amso they can capitalize on lower production costs and increase profits.this goes back to why tariffs are needed as companies do not and should not control trade balance and worry about the greater good of a country. leave that to those that make policy.sadly no one has truly been at the helm of that for decades in the USA

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2018, 07:26:22 pm
content: Quote from: innkeeper on July 02, 2018, 05:41:00 pmI for one, welcome our new fascist overlords !But it's nice to see free market capitalism turn round and bite the sheeple on the ass, who are now easily persuaded to be national socialists.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2018, 07:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: innkeeper on July 02, 2018, 05:41:00 pmUnfortunately there are. Lobbyists in Congress.But to keep this thread focused in electronics:If Moog wants to avoid Tariffs for its Chinese sourced components, there are some alternatives. Thailand. Malaysia. Mexico. Korea. True, some Chinese products are unavoidable. But they can minimize the impact.Perhaps Moog is utilizing this opportunity to execute a long planned strategy.

author: maiekmire
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2018, 08:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on July 02, 2018, 07:26:22 pmI don't think Moog is planning on becoming natsoc.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 12:54:37 am
content: I'm not sure I fully understand the problem here. Moog will have to raise prices, so will everyone else that uses foreign labor, that's not going to put Moog specifically at an unfair disadvantage. Consumers will end up paying more for a lot of things but frankly I think this is necessary. We have become addicted to absurdly cheap toys, I mean I'm not even 40 yet and in my lifetime I've seen prices on stuff like consumer electronics drop by an order of magnitude. It's impossible to make a living building anything in a developed nation for the prices people expect to pay for stuff these days. If we ever want to have any meaningful domestic manufacturing again we have got to get used to having less stuff and paying a lot more for it.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 02:22:17 am
content: whats everyone's perspective on what Moog posted on their website?think its legit and reasonable?

author: maiekmire
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 02:48:59 am
content: Quote from: innkeeper on July 03, 2018, 02:22:17 amI see it as a weak, signally move. They have an overly-expansive line of products that are priced out of reach for most people to begin with. Also, looks like a convenient way to move some of their less profitable items like guitar pedals to overseas manufacturing.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 03:24:03 am
content: Quote from: innkeeper on July 03, 2018, 02:22:17 ama funny question that Mogg must be thinking that people are asking others on how they should run their business. Mogg is the one taking the risk, paying the salary and the additional tarrif. If they think can bite, they stay. Otherwise, they have to adjust.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 04:08:17 am
content: Quote from: innkeeper on July 03, 2018, 02:22:17 amI think they’re using their cachet as a “well loved and well known” musical-instrument brand to shame their state’s Republican congressmen and Senators into pushing to eliminate the tariffs.Which I think is a Good Thing. Because they’re in the same boat as a lot of other small manufacturers, so using that cachet only helps.They do compete in a niche market, and the classic sort of synthesizers they manufacture really aren’t made by any other company. They’re a sole source. So to that point, a synth that goes from $1000 to $1200 is an annoying price increase but what is the musician to do? (S/he’s already decided to deal with an instrument that’s a royal PITA to take on tour, and a Nord isn’t going to cut it.)The tariffs will end. I doubt they’ll last to the end of the year. The larger manufacturers, the ones who contribute the most to election campaigns, will see to that. And Moog has to understand that. Do they have enough parts already in stock to get them through the next six months of orders? If so, then they really don’t need to worry.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 05:10:13 pm
content: In the meantime I'm sure they'll lay off a bunch of people to cut costs, and then when the tariffs end not a chance they'll hire any of those people back.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 05:43:23 pm
content: Gibson guitars went bankrupt, Moog will go under too if only that most kids don't make music anymore but listen to it on their phone. Just my two cents.On the whole global economic reshuffle, that is happening since 25 years or so, America is bankrupt as hell pressing more virtual $ than they earn and the whole reason they are still floating is China who bought their $. So complaining won't do much good. Make, create and sell stuff people want, there are a lot of beautifull american companies not making billions but selling enough to keep 10 people on the job. Lie Nielsen to give an example, not high tech but beautifully handcrafted tools.Why should you only look at extremely big companies with tens of thousands of employees? Most of those jobs are worthless bureaucratic garbage anyway. The new future, smaller companies better quality products.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 07:10:02 pm
content: There are more new billionaires in China than anywhere else so if someone seeks fortune they should be going to the east

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 07:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 03, 2018, 05:43:23 pmGibson didn't go bankrupt because kids aren't making music any more. (Kids are still forming bands and getting into vans to go on tour at about the same rate as when I was a kid first learning to play guitar in a band. The thing is, most people without their ear to the underground have no idea about any of it.)They went bankrupt because their asshole hedge-fund-manager-type CEO decided that Gibson needed to be a "lifestyle brand" a-la Bose, so they expanded into other product areas with which they had no experience and they ended up trying to peddle overpriced junk nobody was buying. And then they forgot about their primary business, which is making high-quality guitars. The guitars they were trying to sell were wildly overpriced and wholly underwhelming.Moog, I think, knows their niche, and if one out of every 10,000 kids making noise on an iPhone decides "maybe I want to get the real thing," then there's a viable market for synths.QuoteYou described Moog, which has less than 100 employees.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 08:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 03, 2018, 07:57:13 pmOk write to the Washington Post and let them rectify this completely wrong article:https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/lifestyle/the-slow-secret-death-of-the-electric-guitar/?utm_term=.520ef0396489Probably the reason they tried to sell other stuffQuoteMoogs are very expensive and since 2004 when the sample plugins on pc and macs could bring the exact same sound for a fraction of the price also the synth market plummeted.They are monophonic analog synths but nowadays they are digital so you don't have to tune them anymore, but their application is limited. Popular for some music effects though.Roland and Yamaha that made new synths every year now bring one out in five years or so, sometimes an upgrade with minimal extras but real developments naaah. The only buyers are life artists that earn their money on stage, not much.I have three synths but lately there is little news on the horizon .

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 09:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 03, 2018, 05:10:13 pmMoog is heavily employeee owned. Mike Adams gave 49 percent of the company to it’s employees a few years ago, something that he and Bob had discussed well before Moog passed away. Every employee is one of the company’s owners.

author: maiekmire
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 09:28:02 pm
content: QuoteThere is a price point that Moog sits at, where people buying modular gear will start to buy boutique. As for virtual instruments and plugins, I agree. Can't neglect to capture that "classic moog sound" would require other expensive live/recording gear.

author: carljrb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 11:09:51 pm
content: Quote from: mmagin on July 01, 2018, 03:51:50 amThat's why the tariffs will move manufacturing jobs to other countries. Manufacture everything in not-USA, then sell in the USA (and everywhere else). Lower BOM cost, lower labor costs, no tarrifs and more profit! There is no downside.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2018, 11:34:07 pm
content: Well in the long term there is a downside, if all the jobs leave, who is going to buy the products allowing the company to make any profit? Of course the way things are set up nobody cares about the long term, the focus is all on short term gains.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 06:35:22 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 03, 2018, 11:34:07 pmI am stepping way out of my comfort knowledge zone here but the products people like and need/want to buy are made cheaper and cheaper because the income of people has not risen much since 2000. So less jobs and less income/job, less money to spent but since products have become cheaper the crowd is still pleased.If everybody had to save for 5 years in order to buy a tv or washingmachine all hell would break looseLook at consumer electronics, they last for a few years but they have become so cheap people have multiple of the same items in 1 house.

author: Eka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 07:46:52 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 03, 2018, 11:34:07 pmBingo! You have the Harvard School of Business to thank for that. What's worse is our current president isn't even that competent. He's much better at corruption than making an honest buck. Over three decades ago I was told something very telling about Trump. "If you ever deal with Trump, he will stab you in the back." A lot of his small business and farmer supporters are now getting stabbed in the back. Sad thing is it is the small businesses that generate the most monetary flow in the economy, not the big ones.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 12:56:17 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 04, 2018, 06:35:22 amThis chart makes stark just how much cheaper TVs, phones, and other consumer goods have gotten over the years:In terms of wage growth, there has been consistent wage growth (certainly in nominal terms, but even in real terms).I see no reason to think that there "ought to be" much real wage growth ("real wage growth" being defined [by economists] as the growth of wagesin excess of inflation; if your pay ["nominal wages"] goes up by 3% and inflation is 3%, you have no real wage growth.)

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 01:00:37 pm
content: More recent era for wages:

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 01:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on July 04, 2018, 12:56:17 pmThis chart makes stark just how much cheaper TVs, phones, and other consumer goods have gotten over the years:When I see this chart, I thank my lucky stars that both my kids finished college in 2004 and 2006 respectively!I remember thinking at the time that college tuition was insane!The worst thing is that the slope of the curve is not flattening out.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 02:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on July 04, 2018, 12:56:17 pmThis differs per country ofcourse but here in the Netherlands only recently the wageincreases start to grow above the inflation (on average ofcourse).If you are a starter your salary can still increase but if you are at the end of your scale you only get the increase as been negotiated between the unions and the employers and those were so low the last 7 years that the IMF is warning about it. Ofcourse it has benefits, economy is growing, businesses earn more money etc. But it is not nice having almost the same salary as 7 years ago and everything else gets more expensive.Graphic: red is the salary increase as been negotiated between the unions and the employers , green is the inflation.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 03:19:59 pm
content: Back in the late 1990s, when China's manufacturing was starting to open up, I attended a conference by an economist.He said some words that are etched in my mind: "Economic theory indicates that the laws of supply and demand apply to everything, including salaries and wages. When the world's available manufacturing workforce suddenly increases by 16%,you will eventually become poorer.If you are employed in certain industries, you will actually become poor."20 years later, we are seeing those results.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 06:02:44 pm
content: Well I am a SW engineer and companies here are flying them in from everywhere in the world because they have a huge demand for these employees however the salaries are still the same as 5 years backThat is why the unions have to negotiate, the employers will not increase the salaries due to demand.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 06:17:59 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 04, 2018, 06:02:44 pmI employ SWEs in a handful of locations around the world. I truly cannot understand why SWE salaries are so low in Amsterdam and even London. Coming from the US, where we're paying fresh college grads US$100K/yr, the market in AMS for experienced devs is right around/slightly under that. We get plenty of good applicant flow at that figure.I also can't believe how inexpensive the street life in Amsterdam and the rest of the Netherlands is. Great meals and drinks available everywhere and when the bill comes, it seems like it's half of what it ought to be.Quote from: Kjelt on July 04, 2018, 06:02:44 pmAnytime I hear that employers aren't behaving according to the laws of supply and demand, I'm skeptical. See above, we get a lot of applicant flow at 80K EUR/yr. Seems to me like that's the market. It does have a positive effect locally: great talent at reasonable prices makes employers more interested in employing people there.When employers start having to "go without" engineers because they're not paying enough to keep up with the market is when the market will move.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2018, 06:41:50 pm
content: AFAIK Because the cost of living is way higher in the US at least in cities esp like NY and LA, looking at the internet those salaries with around $120k the difference does not cover the extra expenses.Couple of years back it came to light that the big ones like google, apple, etc. would not actively take over eachother personell in order to keep stability but also to freeze the salaries.The opportunities I get through linkedin some with big london banks also don't cover the costs of moving, not that I would like to move but it is interesting to compare.But I should not complain, I get twice what my partner gets as a nurse practitioner and she has responsibilities of dead and alive, while my responsibility stops at making sure there no bugs in the release.Still I get 2/3s of an aquintance of mine who is a car salesman, no sec. education but smooth talk good looks and high salesfigures, he has four cars, bmws and a Porsche. Good for him.

author: Eka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2018, 04:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 04, 2018, 06:41:50 pm20 years ago I refused a $120k offer in NYC because it just wasn't enough. I had a 15 minute commute in Minneapolis, and to get comparable sized condo with a sub 30 minute commute in the NYC area would have needed at least $100k a year to pay for it.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2018, 04:43:26 pm
content: Quote from: Eka on July 05, 2018, 04:28:17 pmAll of the above is true. I live in Sunny Tucson, Arizona, and my wife and I live comfortably enough on an engineer's and an academic's salaries. If we were to move back to northern New Jersey (NYC suburb area) and get paid the same salaries, we'd be poor. Our housing costs and property taxes would increase four-fold. It's untenable, and I honestly don't understand how my friends who live there can afford to do so.Similarly, when my previous employer was bought out and the new company decided to close our satellite office, we employees were given the option to move to any of the other businesses that were part of the new company, including our main office in San Diego. So I asked the HR person point-blank: "I'd love to move to San Diego. Will you triple my salary so I can afford housing?" I was told no.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2018, 04:59:21 pm
content: As you know, the Tijuana border crossings are the world's busiest international crossings.I have asked the reasons and although there are many, one of them is that A LOT of people, US citizens themselves, live in the Mexico side and go to work in the US side.A similar situation occurs in the Mexicali and Calexico area.I also wonder how regular people in California make ends meet.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2018, 06:28:54 pm
content: Yes I read an article about that, the Mexicans were complaining that the Americans did not adapt, they refuse to learn or speak spanish.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2018, 08:16:54 pm
content: There's more Spanish speaking people in the US than there is in Spain. So learning to speak it a bit wouldn't be a bad idea.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2018, 08:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2018, 06:50:29 pmWhich was the natural and inevitable order of things, given that that they were, after all, chickens.Rich and poor, low and high, they were always destined for the same pot.