Debunking Audiophoolery - An EEVblog Episode? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 08:05:51 am
content: It's been done to death on this forum already and there are countless opinions surrounding literally hundreds of Audiophool myths and truths. But how about an 'authoritative' view on some of the more common claims?I believe it's time for Dave Jones and Doug Ford to get together and get technical on this one and prove those idiots wrong once and for all!Perhaps you could start with:- Ridiculously priced speaker/power leads- Power conditioners: Are they bullshit?- 'Skin Effect' and how itdoesn'tmatter at audible frequencies- "Audible differences" in different interconnects

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 08:19:06 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 07, 2014, 08:15:06 amAt the end of the episode, Dave can sell them a $30 "Signal Improver" that clips over the cable ;-)

author: Halfdead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 08:30:48 am
content: Quote from: n45048 on October 07, 2014, 08:19:06 amAdd a couple of zeros to the end of that and make it look shiny. Surefire way to sell them.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 09:30:34 am
content: I think this is a great idea, sure there are some people you will never reach as they are too emotionally and financially invested in the myth but what about all those people that are just looking for good quality sound and get sucked in by the snake oil?I'd suggest two episodes, once with all the whiteboard math and scope measurements for those of us into that. Then another slightly less technical one that just touches on the theory but does something like blind tests with the rip off cables and filter setup vs something like twin+earth cable.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 09:39:19 am
content: When i see the word audiophoolery on this forum, it makes me reluctant to ask any questions about diy audio.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 12:29:30 pm
content: It shouldn't, getting good quality sound is a legitimate engineering problem and I think you will get genuine responses to genuine questions round here. It would be a bit like not wanting to discuss energy efficiency because of the scam "free energy device" industry.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 12:44:24 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 07, 2014, 08:15:06 amYep. And it's worse than that. They will find a way to use the video against you. They'll cherry pick 5 seconds of it or something out of context as "verification" their delusion is real.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 12:52:32 pm
content: The other problem is getting hold of this stuff, the "best" ones are really really expensive, which is the whole point of the industry.And it doesn't matter what you do, you can't win.If you do measurements that show zero difference between similar speced products, they will claim that's not the point and you have tolistento it.Then if you get people to partake in true double blind A-B testing then they will claim that you didn't use true audiophiles, didn't use the right speakers, amp, environment etc etc.And of course you can't get true reputable audiophiles to take part because they are all in on the delusion.You don't see them falling over themselves to take James Randi's million dollar challengeThe only debunking I've seen that has been worthwhile is the one on HDMI cable testing, and they were able to prove definitively there was zero difference between the cheap and high end cables.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 01:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on October 07, 2014, 09:39:19 amYou shouldn't be. Nothing wrong with that at all, and the pursuit of higher quality sound.No one here will argue that $20 ebay speakers sound as good as $2000 B&W'sOr that 10AWG speaker cable won't be better than 20AWG.Or *insert any other major electrically or acoustically quantifiable difference here*Just don't go around claiming that $2000 cryogenically frozen 10AWG cable sounds different to otherwise same construction and measurement 10AWG cable.Or that cables are directionalOr *insert other nonsense here*

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 01:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2014, 01:00:49 pmIf RF engineers can make a duplexer out of a copper loop on a PCB, I bet there must be a way, as impractical as it might be, to weave a legit directional cable. Of course, using microwave tricks just to prove that directional cables are possible at several GHz is not going to be of much use at audio frequencies.

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 02:08:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2014, 12:52:32 pmagree on all points but...i think there could be some mileage in a discussing the theory (whiteboard episode?) around some of these products and the pseudo-science terms they usego on... have a good old rant!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 03:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: n45048 on October 07, 2014, 08:05:51 amWhy do you care? People want to spend their own money and it makes them feel good and special.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 03:05:11 pm
content: Dave, let me know if you want to do an episode on this because I collect audiophoolery cases for fun and I have a LOT of material.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 04:53:34 pm
content: While we are on this lets tackle religious fundementalisim while we are at it. You will get about te same responce. We can have this wholetrouble in the Middle East thing fixed up by dinner time!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 05:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2014, 12:52:32 pmDave, are you caving in to their foolishness? You shouldn't be! Your videos are aimed at the clever folk, those who will actually listen and take on-board the years of expert knowledge both you and Doug have. I know a thing or two about audio, but I would happily listen to you guys for an hour without even touching a scope than read the bullshit on some of those websites that claim to have tested their product. You guys know a hell of a lot more than they do! So you see, you don't need to buy these cables necessarily, perhaps talk about the theory, what's nonsense and what isn't. Should noise in AC power make it through to the output at all? etc...You already touched on it in Episode 29, why not expand on it a little?Quote from: dexters_lab on October 07, 2014, 02:08:38 pmExactly!Quote from: zapta on October 07, 2014, 03:04:00 pmIt's educational and for our benefit. Dave may even teach them a thing or two.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 05:59:59 pm
content: I've never had any luck debunking anything. The believers don't want to be debunked!On directional cables- This stuff usually starts with a bit of truth and then gets warped into something else. You don't want ground currents flowing in shields. Many cables are built with twin conductor cable, and a shield, typically connected at one end only. S.O.P. They put an arrow on the cable so you know which end the shield connection isnotat, so you can plug the shield end into the quieter component, typically the source of the signal, not the destination. This is all in accordance with sound theory for shielding and grounding (see Ott, et al), but when the audio people see the arrow they think it has something to do with the directionality of the signal.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:13:47 pm
content: QuoteYup, that's it.Despite of all the logic and common sense and scientific evidence to the contrary, most of the population of the world still believe in god/religion (eg billions of christians and muslims etc). Therefore, trying to use simple science, logic and common sense against a few audiophools is going to fail the same way. They 'want' to believe...

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:21:41 pm
content: I'd think rather than a debunking vid a simple one encouraging users to experiment with things would be better. Perhaps mention how far you have to go before seeing effects.- See how thin / long a wire has to be before the signal level drops.- Use a simple waveform as an input to an amplifier to check it's quality, do the same with a wire. Perhaps mention why we use wire instead of noodles.Maybe just drop the whole thing.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:31:53 pm
content: Why poke that bear?Those who could be persuaded already agree.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2014, 12:52:32 pmI used to participate in a forum for high-end video and people there swore that expensive HDMI cables were better than cheap ones. I took a $700 HDMI cable and a $3.99 cable from Monoprice and put them on a vector network analyzer and swept them out to 6 GHz and the $3.99 Monoprice cable actually had better numbers. Of course, the die-hards on the forum just wouldn't accept this and claimed that my equipment was faulty, or I didn't know how to use it, or any of a dozen other reasons for why my results were bogus, because they just "knew" that the $700 cablehadto be better.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 08:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on October 07, 2014, 06:57:37 pmIt's calledConfirmation bias. It's a typical trap that affect many persons that believes in conspiracy theories and nonsense pseudosciences.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 09:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on October 07, 2014, 06:21:41 pmHeh.When i was a kid, my parents used to hide the monitor cable from the computer i liked to play games on so much.So, one day i got a bobbin of rather thick magnet wire, cut and stripped a lot of 1 meter long segments of it, and connected each pin of the VGA port on the PC with each corresponding pin on the monitor.And it worked!The colours would go off when the wires occasionally shook out of contact, but when they were in everything looked nice.And that at the 27-ish MHz.Well, how about such a test - connect one sound system with proper regular cables, and the other with something ridiculous (but electrically sufficient), like a bunch of exposed copper strands, or just bare simple straightened coat hanger.And, compare the sound output for any audible differences.Should make a very graphic video.

author: true
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 10:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on October 07, 2014, 05:59:59 pmBecause it says "Direction" on it. And the manufacturer says to do it that way.(I work in the AV industry, doing everything from a single TV to large stadium audio. Most people in this industry, and to an extent live audio,don't think,they just do.)Quote from: ArtlavThe coathanger blind test has been done, and even on video, with the results you expect.

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 10:17:41 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on October 07, 2014, 09:43:12 pmIf you use something ridiculous, you may actually get ridiculous results: if you have a large loop cross-section between your signal wire/whatever and your ground wire, that surface area acts as an antenna and will pick up all sorts of noises from 0Hz to 1MHz or more while the loop's inductance may actually cause some genuine frequency-dependent attenuation... you may actually hear the difference between two wires going off in random directions and the same two wires twisted together.As for audible differences, ears are subjective. It would be better to get a high quality microphone and see what a 16-20bits 1MHz oscilloscope has to say about it. If the oscilloscope says the two signals are identical, there is not much room left to argue within reason.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 11:44:39 pm
content: QuoteWe're cutting just a bit too close to home here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 12:14:42 am
content: Quote from: G0HZU on October 07, 2014, 06:13:47 pmThe surprising thing is that in both cases, they can actually be right!And audiophoolwillactually a hear difference, just like a religious personwillhear that voice of god in their head, orfeela presence etc.Various branches of cognitive neuroscience can provide fascinating insight into how all this works in peoples head.Of course, it doesn't mean any of it is in the least bit actually real, but it certainly is real enough to them. The power of the human mind.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 02:45:50 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 08, 2014, 12:28:54 amSure, but what are you going to do with all that new storage space smart guy??

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 03:27:21 am
content: If only people would say they just LIKE the idea of listening to their stereo using some gold plated optic fibre cable or whatever. I could live with that. Instead, they invent all kinds of "reasons" as to why they are supposedly so wise and astute in their choice of equipment.something else that annoys me is whingeing, snotty-nosed hifi reviewer who tries to appear discerning and with elevated and refined standards, when in reality they are simply not pleased by anything, let alone have half an idea how it works. To condemn a piece of equipment as beneath their grand and majestic dignity needs only a stroke of the pen and then on to whats next, with no regard for those that worked hard to design and make that equipment.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 06:21:11 am
content: I think its time for all sensible people to make a country of their own, power it with fusion, which we would probably have if we had put the money into it that we have put into all the other garbage our society and government spends on useless crap, and just point rail guns outwards in all directions and come up with some next level cool shit and actually educate the children in science, engineering, and history.

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 11:38:55 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 08, 2014, 03:27:21 amI'm sure my turntable would sound great using gold-plated fiber but platinum would be even better! If you want to make it nicer still, add platinum-plated silver braid shielding!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 11:41:06 am
content: Quote from: calexanian on October 08, 2014, 06:21:11 am

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 01:15:51 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on October 08, 2014, 06:21:11 amNot at that scale but check The Free State project.Audiophiles that spend their own money don't bother me. I care more about those people that want to spend my tax money for their pet projects.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 02:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2014, 01:00:49 pmActually 'skin effect' could be something to consider. There is a limit to the diameter of mains cables due to skin effect.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 03:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2014, 02:37:57 pmHow would that matter for a mains cable? At 50 Hz, the skin depth is about 11mm.

author: simingx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 03:25:39 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on October 08, 2014, 03:07:26 pm... which is the reason why you don't see copper busbars (for industrial equipment etc) much thicker than that too. But then again for those applications, proximity effect becomes a factor too.Some good reading here...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 03:54:34 pm
content: Robert Bussard probably had the best designs for fusion, and achieved his goal of a cheap and easy to operate device, but ran out of funding. There is a fascinating talk by him at Google, and another few interviews with him on The Space Show. You could at the worst describe him as brilliant, he had ideas and was able to actually make them work and generate power in a usable form. IIRC his research is all still being continued. His ideas were that you can just keep it together long enough for a little fusion, then just keep on restarting with a massive current pulse in a containment coil with a high voltage to get the nuclei into a confined space. No fancy magnets, no massive walls just a design in small scale that actually worked yet which would fit in a small room including all the pumps and such.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 04:21:35 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on October 08, 2014, 03:07:26 pmIt means you can't make a mains infinitely thick to carry as much current as needed.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 06:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2014, 04:21:35 pmHow much current (at 240v) are we talking about here? Are we talking about a sound system installed in someone's house, or one installed in a huge stadium?

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 06:38:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2014, 04:21:35 pmMaybe not infinitely thick but you can get pretty close to arbitrarily thick using multi-strand cables with each strand being less than 10mm across.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 08:25:31 pm
content: Speaking of weird speaker cables and copper cross section, one implementation I have seen uses ribbon cable with alternate conductors in parallel so its actual RF impedance was in the 8 ohm range but the intention was much more practical than impedance matching. This was done so that the speaker wires could run flat under carpet.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 08:38:03 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on October 08, 2014, 06:19:43 pmThe 'mains cable' is just an example of how skin effect is not a super high frequency phenomenon and therefore something to keep an eye on in high power audio systems.

author: os40la
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 08:43:39 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on October 08, 2014, 06:21:11 amSounds like a cool Kickstarter project.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 06:43:47 am
content: Quote from: os40la on October 08, 2014, 08:43:39 pmI'm in!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 06:52:56 am
content: Quote from: calexanian on October 08, 2014, 06:21:11 amFusion is still a money black hole since there is no theory how to achieve it, no scientist with a prototype that delivers more energy than put into it, and the nearest thing we have to a real world practical example is the sun which is so violent you might want to ask yourself if you want to experiment with this on your planet or should take it somewhere safe on another uninhabited planet.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 11:49:19 am
content: Please start with interconnect "burn in".

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 12:35:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on October 09, 2014, 06:52:56 amCommon misconception. Fusion inside the Sun is so placid and slow that even at the core every cubic meter only produces a few watts of power. It's just that the Sun is so enormous. Every second it still manages to convert 4 million tons of matter into energy. Like E=MC2 convert.We need to surpass the conditions at the core of the Sun if we want to have practical fusion power. If you want the equivalent of a 1GW fission reactor, you'd need a cubic kilometer of reaction volume if you just did it like the Sun.There is also plenty of theory on how to achieve it, but the problem is in the details. IMO the biggest are neutron activation and the thermal blanket.These dudes may have a solution:http://www.generalfusion.com/I don't have the competence to find out if what they claim makes sense, but they have an electromechanical approach which I like.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 01:13:47 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on October 09, 2014, 12:35:41 pmI hope their fusion reactor engineering is better than their web page engineering.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 01:39:04 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on October 09, 2014, 12:35:41 pmThey claim ready for full scale test if true then the graph on the previous page is erroneous and we saved a lot of money not investing in tens of useless projects.If their claim is false then we still saved a lot of money not investing in tens of useless projects

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 01:52:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2014, 08:38:03 pmNonsense IMO. How many audio systems have you seen that require power conductors greater than 11mm diameter (95mm^2 conductor area)? A copper cable of this size would gives a resistance of 0.00017 ohms/meter. That would be good for at least 300 Amps provided the cable isn't fully enclosed.If you are actually working with audio in the 100's of kW or MW range, then maybe consider using higher supply voltages than 240v?

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 07:56:31 pm
content: For the francophones out there I recommendhttp://www.amazon.com/bien-entendu-itineraire-audiophile-%C3%A9dition/dp/2866611616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412884463&sr=8-1&keywords=itineraire+d%27un+audiophileSome real-world practical audio engineering especially regarding the most variable element: the speaker. The transducer as well as the enclosure.Of course I don't have the space to build or use 400 pound speakers that come on caster wheels. But one can dream.

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 08:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on October 09, 2014, 06:52:56 amNo theory? There are dozens. Nuclear fusion has been achieved in labs and some experiments have managed to generate more power than what went in. The problem is that none of the successful experiments can produce continuous power. Two of the more successful designs are direct and indirect inertial drive but those require that the fuel gets packaged into precision-crafted pellets and then precision-aligned in the laser beams to ignite, which is difficult to achieve with uniform yield and the reactor would need to fire over a hundred such pellets per second to be practical in a production reactor.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 07:29:27 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on October 09, 2014, 01:52:04 pmAnd since there are no audio amplifier which can possibly do 100s of kW, nor any speakers which can handle that sort of power, there's really no point. So with the current trend toward self-powered loudspeakers you just end up distributing AC mains up to each cabinet in the array. Still a lot of power for an arena rig, but distributed in 20 A chunks.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 12:36:29 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on October 10, 2014, 07:29:27 pmFor the purpose of enlightening the rest of the world on the virtues of their workers' paradise, some Eastern Bloc countries had AM shortwave transmitters with as much as 500kW RF output. To modulate that to 100% you need 250kW of audio. That is what they did.