Caution: rampant armchair pomposity on view - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 04:13:47 pm
content: Ah, fuck this. I just saw that article and thought "Yeah, that would be a laugh as a dodgy tech topic, bit of a change from boring old infinite energy and perfect audio kit." 'Course, I forgot about the sad gits that have to find something to argue with, and if it ain't a debunking bandwagon they'll pick any random shit. Gosh, I even spread a few smilies, something I don't often do, just to point it it wasn'tthatserious.Lesson learned.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 04:26:36 pm
content: You clearly don't understand the difference between power and energy. (The journalist probably doesn't either)The thread title indicates you haven't considered the certain effects of a lithium fire in an aircraft hold vs on land in a remote location. Hint: seehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6and others.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 05:15:29 pm
content: https://electrek.co/2018/09/24/tesla-powerpack-battery-australia-cost-revenue/https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/01/01/a-giant-tesla-battery-in-australia-has-saved-40-million-in-its-first-year-2Works pretty well in Australia.Quote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 05:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on June 10, 2019, 04:42:10 pmHow about then not using fossil fuels? They burn very well and you are not allowed bring them into airplane at all.QuoteIn that way that it dramatically reduces requirement of excessive energy generation capacity. Also, fast response is important. If some of energy generation suddenly goes out due to failure, system overload may cause overload protection kicking in in other places thus causing chain reaction and eventual blackout.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 05:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on June 10, 2019, 05:31:24 pmRead further, it's at least 10 million in 6 months.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 05:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on June 10, 2019, 04:13:47 pmYes we absolutely do. When a soap or the cup final reaches a commercial break and everyone goes and puts the kettle on! At the moment we have pumped storage which go from zero to full output in around 5 seconds to cope with such events.There are actually people in the National Grid control centre who monitor the TV channels (ie. watch the telly) to predict events like this and curse when a program ends earlier than scheduled (I've seen the documentary).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 05:57:10 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on June 10, 2019, 05:50:55 pm

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 06:02:12 pm
content: Yes, that was the one!A uniquely British phenomenon.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 06:05:00 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on June 10, 2019, 04:45:32 pmYou are making it worse.Better stop digging that hole for yourself and read up on power, energy, and their respective units.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 07:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 10, 2019, 06:05:00 pmI don't see that post from dunkemhigh. Has he been deleting his hole?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 07:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 10, 2019, 07:02:49 pmYes, seems so, and he has edited the OP as well.@dunkemhigh -- sorry, didn't mean to offend or annoy you.But you clearly were on the wrong track there.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 08:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 10, 2019, 07:11:57 pmSo it seems.Anybody that can change their OP to that below (copied so history isn't revised again) is exhibiting troll-like behaviour that annoys other people.Quote from: dunkemhigh on June 10, 2019, 04:13:47 pmI wonder if they have learned therightlesson?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:09:16 am
content: Is there a point to this thread?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:46:55 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 11, 2019, 08:09:16 amSince the OP (dunkemhigh) deleted several of their own responses and changed their firt post, it is difficult to discern a purpose.The remaining value is a reminder of the OP's understanding, behaviour and integrity.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:53:43 am
content: Thank you for so clearly illustrating the reason why I decided to nix this thread.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 09:20:43 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on June 11, 2019, 08:53:43 amWhy did you delete link to original article? It's no shame to be wrong, it's shame to be wrong while (un)admitting you were wrong.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 09:29:22 am
content: Quote from: ogden on June 11, 2019, 09:20:43 amPrecisely.Someone admitting that their understanding has improved is a sign of strength, not weakness. Plus, it can help others.In future I'll "quote" the OP, so the context isn't lost again. Strangely Ididconsider doing that with my first response to the OP, but decided against it. My mistake.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 10, 2019, 05:15:29 pmThat battery bank is great for load leveling which takes advantage of its power density but still not economical as a replacement for dispatchable power which is what the Greens are trying to imply. This is one of those cases where scaling up is not economical as the moronic California legislature is finding out very quickly by subsidizing wind and solar without considering the cost of storage.Another way to think of this is that they are penalizing hydroelectric and nuclear power for being dispatchable.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:29:59 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 11, 2019, 04:05:47 pmYes, that kind of "thinking" is common elsewhere tooFrom memory, since the first post has been obliterated, the OP used phrases like "I hope the 50MW isn't discharged all at once".I don't know why greens have difficulty understanding the difference between power and energy (kW/kWh), but I now go to events where greens might be present equipped with a permanent marker.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 11, 2019, 04:05:47 pmActually battery storage works really well with nuclear power. It has extremely slow response and battery storage can compensate that quite well.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 11, 2019, 04:29:59 pmTesla powerpack in Australia has 100MW power and 129MWh capacity. So at full power output it will last more than an hour.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 11, 2019, 04:30:42 pm"Dispatchable" doesn't mean fast, it means predictably controllable.Too many people have an analogous misunderstanding of the term "real-time" as in software.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 05:14:36 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 11, 2019, 04:46:04 pmYes, predictable. But controlling is so slow than cannot even really throttle at night. You need tons of additional non nuclear power production capability which can be run during high demand times, but otherwise stay unused rest of the time.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 05:54:40 pm
content: We shall not throw all the different eggs in same basked. Batteries are not here yet to handle minimum 24h storage required for "renewable" sources, yet they could be fine to handle consumption bursts caused by TV commercials.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 06:02:02 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 11, 2019, 05:14:36 pmAgreed, apart from the word "tons".You need the mixture of sources, but that brings the difficulty of assigning a relative cost to fundamentally different things.My objection is when one "side" makes claims which are only true and valid w.r.t. part of the required mix. The classic example is claiming that wind is cheaper than nukes, and ignoring that the wind doesn't always blow! In the UK a useful rule of thumb is that X% of the time the total aggregate wind power is less than X% of the peak power. I.E. 3 days/year the power is <1% of peak, or for 1week/year it is <2%.However many wind turbines you install, you still need to have sources for 98% of the power for that 1week. The question is then how to cost that rarely used capacity.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 06:35:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 11, 2019, 04:29:59 pmTo be fair, a majority of people do not know the difference.Quote from: wraper on June 11, 2019, 04:30:42 pmThat is true but I suspect a natural gas peaker plant would be more economical.Quote from: tggzzz on June 11, 2019, 04:46:04 pmI agree but it depends on the details of the design. Even for nuclear power, it is possible to build a plant with fast or at least faster response. Molten salt plants where the xenon is continuously removed would be particularly good for this. Existing plants are bad simply because fast response was never a requirement and they were designed accordingly.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 07:10:41 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 11, 2019, 06:35:33 pmAnd that should disqualify such people from having any influence on discussions. Doubly so on an "electrical" forum.Unfortunately we live on planet earth, in a time where all opinions are defined to be valid.QuoteThe economics of Tesla's Australian battery are subtle and only partially understood by me.I believe ther profitability is more to do with the economics of arbitrage rather than technical considerations.QuoteI can't comment on that, other to note that current nukes also produced plutonium, and that new nuke designs are at last being seriously investigated.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 07:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 11, 2019, 07:10:41 pmSomeone over there did not realize how a large scale instantaneously dispatchable battery system would be useful in leveling the power grid. But most people are confusing that with the economics of load balancing over a 24 hour cycle which is completely different.QuoteThey are not in the US and they like it that way. I liked this video on the subject:https://youtu.be/GAiHtrWHxK0

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 08:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 11, 2019, 07:31:22 pmJust so, both technically and w.r.t. people's comprehension