"Giving away secrets" of electronics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:19:40 pm
content: Hi,I have been fixing up a bog standard couple of hard switched converters for a customer.Its bare basic , “electrician level” electronics, but tomorrow, I am being taken to their customer, to answer questions about “giving away secrets”…in relation to these bog standard hard switched converters.I have never given away real secrets about anything……and these circuits that I have been working on are literally "electrician level" SMPS designs……the sort of thing you get demo boards on for a couple of quid. The sort of thing that App notes talk about in droves.The sort of schems that are strewn all over the internet.They are the sorts of SMPS that a 14 year old could design. It’s the simplest level of electronics….no more secret than an electricians knowledge.It’s the knowledge of SMPS, that got outsourced to the Pacific Rim years ago…….as if there are secrets in this?.....secrets no way. If it was secret, why all SMPS work is outsourced to the Pacific Rim? They blame people like me for the fact that China is a million miles ahead of the west in SMPS design. Its the west's own fault...for outsourcing massive amounts of SMPS work to the Far East.Has anybody else ever been to one of these inquests? What happens?

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:30:40 pm
content: You are taken to your customer's customer to give away secrets? Or are you in trouble for supposedly giving away any secrets?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: m98 on November 21, 2022, 07:30:40 pmit's Faringdon so it might be both, none, or more likely made up, imaginary, trolling, an excuse to complain about the Chinese

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:41:56 pm
content: Print the controller datasheet out and when asked about the secrets of how they work slap it on the table and say it's all in here !Secret electronics......never heard such a damn fool thing !

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 07:42:45 pm
content: I can't imagine any "secrets" that haven't been asked here by him.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 08:05:09 pm
content: in 55 years of EE and consulting I never encounterd this.Nowadays most consultant contracts specify NDA, work for hire, etc.Any confidential information should be so marked.Where are the patents ? NDA ? contract or PO T&C?Seems like just another Farrington /Treez time sinkJon

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 06:14:34 am
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 21, 2022, 07:19:40 pmI never knew that electricians where taught electronics. My educational path started at electricians level and no electronics was taught at that point. I also think that properly designing a switched mode power supply is not that easy. I would have to dig into the subject to do so, and might not succeed despite being a clever chap. The field of electronics is very wide and there are many pitfalls in the different disciplines.So my conclusion here is, yes most likely another Faringdon / Treez time sink

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 06:57:10 am
content: It's quite the insult to call an electronics engineer an "electrical engineer". I used to detest that when I was young and insecure. We are all equally valuable and skilled in/interested in different areas. It doesn't matter to me now, but as a teenager? Oh boy did it annoy me!!

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 07:01:24 am
content: AS 50% of posts on this power sub are originally posted by Farrington, and are dead ends,I propos the forum an acronym, for "Farrington Treez Time Sink" .......FTTS !Your thoughts appreciatedBon SoiréeJon

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 11:15:35 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on November 21, 2022, 07:38:29 pmIt does look like aclassictreez/faringdon post, doesn't it. A barely literate word salad followed by an anti-Chinese rant that has no connection to the beginning.I wonder whether he is using this forum as as some form of therapy, when another form might be more beneficial for him.Myemphasis..."I have beenfixing upa bog standard couple ofhard switched convertersfor a customer. Its bare basic ,“electrician level” electronics, but...""simplest levelof electronics….no more secret than anelectricians knowledge"

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 11:46:12 am
content: Just jam a noodle in it and Bob's your Uncle!(you remember me of SpectateSwamp)

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 11:49:58 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 22, 2022, 11:15:35 amMaybe, or more likely, his own personal R&D department. Looking at the number of threads, maybe the Power/Renewable Energy/EV's section ought to be renamed!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 11:59:45 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 22, 2022, 11:49:58 amYes, but... this particular thread isn't looking for any information or confirmation that he isn't barking up the wrong tree.When hewasincessantly doing the latter, it wasn't so much Research & Design as "ask random body" & "misapplied simplistic rules of thumb".

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 12:13:48 pm
content: What’s a hard switched converter? Is it about 2 minutes longer than a soft switched converter?

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 12:15:07 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 22, 2022, 11:15:35 amOh, so true, sigh.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 12:20:45 pm
content: Is there some way that the forum can restrict the number of topics started by a user?e.g. restricted to starting one topic per week?It may help us (retain sanity) and also the over-enthusiastic poster, who might take the time to consider the quality of their new topic?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 06:04:49 pm
content: Hmm. I have potential context here.Mind, all the usual OP skepticism still applies. I just mean, it could be like this, but who knows.Anyway.In power electronics, and induction heating in particular, I was actually told by my boss, "in a world of the blind, the man with one eye reigns king". That probably sums things up well enough by itself, but I will explain a little more.Evidently, in their scope -- not just the immediate organization, but much of the industry as a whole, it seems -- actual resonant power knowledge is arcane, rare, and coveted. (Ironically, not coveted enough for them to give me a raise -- among other reasons why I left.)Turns out, induction just kind of sucks, in terms of... culture, personalities, etc. I'm sure I don't understand why, or if it happens to be coincidence, but my experience has been, there's enough market consolidation, and other forces (and maybe just intrinsic draw?), that there's an unusually high incidence -- well, maybe it's closer to the average for all US businesses, but in my experience it seems worse than average in the engineering sector -- of, you know, likely NPD types, RWA types, those sorts of things -- in short, the shitty, micromanaging, abusive, underpaying sort. Managers or owners.So, given that:If I had to guess, at what kinds of employers/clients OP is finding, given the general drought of engineering in the area (UK), and given OP's life experience (and whatever assumptions one might make about their income, or bid range) -- it may very well be the case that this acts to filter down the available employers/clients to just the businesses that operate like the above. To them, even basic SMPS knowledge may be arcane and coveted; but coveted in word only, as they're much too tightwad to offer any kind of salary/rate that would attract the numerous actual-experts in the field.Tim

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 06:39:22 pm
content: ETI says"It's quite the insult to call an electronics engineer an "electrical engineer"....Oh boy did it annoy me!!"I was in university in 1960s, engineering was CE civil, EE electrical, ME mechanicalWe required all three courses regardless of specialty. I was indeed an EE.There were no special category of electronic engineer!My professors were all "electrical engineers" one from Con Edison, many from Bell Laboratoires, some authored out text books.most of my 55 years of experience are with analog and power circuit and products designSo, ETI, I take issue of your words about insults.Have a great dayJon

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 06:48:19 pm
content: re. secrets in electronics - didn't follow OP's drift, but I can add a snippet to "what counts as a secret in electronics" - Fred Hoyle in his autobiographyHome is Where the wind blows(p.172) says theknowledge of the significance of the magnetron's strapswas a secret kept by many from many re WWII radar.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 07:10:15 pm
content: Quote from: eti on November 22, 2022, 06:57:10 amI'm not quite sure why? Electrical engineering relates to the engineering of systems that involve electricity. I'm rather sure that electronic circuits use electricity, so they are electrical engineering. When I was studying engineering, the students of electrical engineering used to build all sorts of analog and digital electronics in their project work.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 07:29:52 pm
content: But Faringdon did not mention an electrical engineer. He writes about an electrician, which in my book is someone who wires up buildings and homes and works with mains voltage. And nothing bad about that, but most will know little about electronics.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 07:40:22 pm
content: I didn't understand exactly what the OP was trying to ask.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 08:57:34 pm
content: Sil Whiz..."I didn't understand exactly what the OP was trying to ask."That applies to most if not all of Farrington/Treeze posts....Hence my acronym FTTS = Farrington Treeze Time Sink (Treeze was his alternate pseudonym)Enjoy,Jon

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 09:10:11 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on November 22, 2022, 08:57:34 pmtreez --> zenerbjt --> faringdonFZTTSFaringdon has started a new topic on average every 36hrs since that username was registered in June 2021, just nonsense. Take a month off and give us all a holiday.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 09:21:23 pm
content: It could be that Faringdon-Treez has multiple personalities and one of his personalities is miffed to the point of auditing another one of his personalities.Maybe he posts this stuff in a misguided attempt to keep his sanity somewhat straight; at least enough to scratch out a living. EEVblog members are providing a much needed form of therapy even if the help in not sufficient to lead to a cure.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:04:47 pm
content: My guess is he was making fun of the customer and their bog standard designs online. The customer found out and wants to have a chat about it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on November 22, 2022, 09:10:11 pmThe original treez identity was renamed to 'ocset' - go on, let's see you work that one in!

author: hexreader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:42:27 pm
content: Post removedHad second thoughtsThere is no excuse for being mean, and having fun at other's expenseSorry treez

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:52:00 pm
content: Here's one for you:HOW IS HE EVEN STILL HERE ?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:57:22 pm
content: Quote of hexreader's post removed.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 11:23:28 pm
content: And we think DSO’s are bad for aliasing !

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:23:44 am
content: Even though itisFaringdon, there are a lot of places out there which try to pretend the most "public domain" of circuitry can be described as "trade secrets".One place I worked had an interface board (which they somewhat grandly, called a "mother board") filled with circuitry straight out of the National Semiconductor IC book.For ages, they wouldn't let us have a schematic, making troubleshooting problematical, to say the least.Such nonsense is usually driven by Management drones, unfortunately often abetted by technical people who know better, but are playing along for internal political ends.In another place, a plain old CRT monitor in a piece of hearing testing equipment developed a vertical deflection problem.The standard procedure was to send them back to the USA, to be replaced with a "Refurbed" unit for around $A1200.Although this was a "nice little earner" for the supplier, they decided to stop doing that, & to sell us a brand new, much more expensive monitor.Looking at the board, the circuitry around the "jungle IC" which provided all the scanning drive signals looked familiar, although the morons had sanded the identification off the IC.Following my hunch, I spoke to an ex- colleague, who loaned me a Electrohome monitor handbook.Sure enough, it was the very same circuitry, albeit in a different PCB layout.The problem, as with the "E'homes", turned out to be a quite underrated diode, which, when it died, caused this fault.A look in the store yielded a dusty looking, long forgotten diode which filled the bill admirably, so we were able to return the device to the customer without having to hit them with a huge financial shock!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:41:37 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on November 22, 2022, 06:39:22 pmI had said That is what I thought as a teenager for a short time, not my opinion now.If you choose to take offence to an opinion I held over 30 years ago, that is somewhat foolish.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 12:57:02 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 23, 2022, 12:23:44 amThe real problem is that technology today has taken the place that magic held in the past.The world somehow thinks that the way things work is so complex, so mysterious, that only a few select people who have been inducted into the hidden knowledge can understand it.Whereas, in reality, any technical problem can be solved by the application of appropriate logic, imagination, and deductive reasoning. There are no technical secrets. Show a device that does something, and someone else can construct a device that does the same thing. Present a description of what a new device needs to do, and someone can construct a device that fits the bill. The fact this is so easy to do so is why patents exist. Patents are like mining claims. The first person to file the paperwork gets to own the proceeds.In my utopian world, I would like the patent system to be abolished, and let people be free to create, invent, and compete without restraint.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:06:24 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2022, 12:57:02 amBrilliant. And also naive. Peopleshouldbe rewarded financially for their own personal inventions, where they’ve invested vast amounts of time and personal money into developing an invention no one has considered up until then. Utopia never works. That is a daydream.It’s all very well for the rest of society who made no personal sacrifice in this way, to assume they’re entitled to it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:25:39 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 23, 2022, 01:06:24 amOn the contrary, people should be penalized for being so slow and inefficient in their work. They should lose out to people who can develop the same products faster, more efficiently, and at lower cost. Everyone benefits from this, especially consumers, who can pay lower prices.If you spend time and money on something, it is not an invention, it is product development. An invention is a lightbulb moment, something that happens instantaneously, a concept that nobody has thought of before. Go through the catalog of patents published in a given year. You will find that nearly all of them are the entirely obvious result of applying deductive reasoning to a given problem statement.I contend that there is not much left in the world that nobody has already thought of. People have thought of almost everything, and so the patent system is a relic of a distant past that has little relevance today.There are a few new and original things that are invented, but they constitute only a tiny fraction of patent applications.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:47:08 am
content: So there's no incentive to invent anything at all? Cool.I suppose you've never seen your hard-earned work copied effortlessly and for pennies on the dollar by Chinese suppliers? (Not saying I have personally, but I have seen others.)Ed: heh, case in point, this thread just popped up on the unread-posts list, by coincidence:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/saleae-prices/Tim

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:03:11 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2022, 01:25:39 am** This is such a basic logical fallacy that it almost beggars belief. Only things that have been thought of, have been thought of. The things that have yet to be thought of, haven't yet been thought of, ergo it's absolutely impossible to quantify how much is left to be thought of (or discovered, for want of a more correct term), since it has not yet been thought of.The sum of all human knowledge accrued to date, is analogous to a single atom in a universe of, well, many many atoms. We can't know what we don't know, and since we only know what we know, we can't know what we DON'T know, and what we may never know. General human arrogance (not meaning you) is astonishingly amusing, as it assumes WE are the beginning, middle and end of all that ever was and ever will be. And I say... LOL!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:05:32 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 23, 2022, 01:47:08 amYep. Exactly. It's easy to glibly rattle off trite, entitled commentary when one hasn't done the work or made any personal sacrifice.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:12:38 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 23, 2022, 02:03:11 amIt is indeed possible to quantify. Just read patents. Go look at them. You will observe that 99% of them are obvious and contain no invention at all. If patents were restricted to the 1% of things that are truly original and inventive, that would be one thing, but that is patently not the case (pun intended). Patents are a game played by big corporations with expensive lawyers so they can trade poker hands against one another. Individuals just get squashed underfoot and left by the wayside.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:19:13 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 23, 2022, 02:05:32 amAgain, "doing the work" or "making sacrifices" is not invention--it is work, or the cost of doing business.To be clear, a successful patent application does not require that the invention works, it does not require that any kind of prototype or demonstration exists, it does not require that any useful product can be made out of it. The only requirement for a successful patent application is that it is written in the correct legal language, and that it can overcome any objections from the patent examiner about something already claimed by someone else.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:22:26 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 23, 2022, 01:47:08 amThere's a remedy for copying the work of others, it's called copyright. It is a legal tool used extensively by artists, musicians, authors, and many others. Engineers should make more use of it.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:23:09 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2022, 02:12:38 amIt would take you a life's work to thoroughly examine, analyse etc, "99% of patents". You'd better start now, life is short.Right, so anyway, regardless, we all assume many things in life "should be" the way that suits us, but they ain't. You're not gonna change this, and it ain't the way you want it to be, so hard cheese I suppose.

author: niconiconi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 04:05:43 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 23, 2022, 12:23:44 am+1 for this. Also, I've seen many misconceptions about copyright and patents, including on engineering forums. For example, an engineer may say a circuit design cannot be used here because it's still "copyrighted" (Marco Reps made this mistake in a video), or that the theory of operation of a circuit cannot be described or unknowable because it's "patented" (On another forum, I've seen an engineer who refused to explain the actual circuit in a Fluke voltage standard, and instead used a substitute instead. There are many valid reasons for refusing to explain it, but not because it's patented, you absolutely have the right to do this).CopyrightCopyright only applies to the particular representation (e.g. drawing or writing) of a fact, not the fact itself. So a particular engineering drawing is copyrighted, and it's often a copyright violation to copy the original drawing. But it's underlying circuit netlist, topology, design, or even component values are not. Everyone else is free to replicate the same circuit independently. As long as the original drawing is not copied, copyright does not apply and is not violated. This is the entire legal basis of reverse engineering. And in some cases, even if the original drawing is copied exactly, it's still not a copyright violation due to- Merger Doctrine - if the particular expression is the only possible way to express an underlying idea, this expression is essentially the idea itself, and one cannot claim its copyright. If I invented the common-emitter amplifier, I cannot claim I have the copyright of its drawing and stop others from drawing the same topology.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea%E2%80%93expression_distinction#Merger_doctrine- Fair Use (for example, if only a limited portion has been copied, and it's used for commentary or educational purposes, in such a way that the interests of the original copyright owner is largely unaffected - this is why you usually have the right to open a service manual, and making a video to explain how a particular subcircuit works).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use- Functional object. In some special cases, even a 100% copy is not necessarily a copyright violation. VLSI layout belongs to this category. Under standard US copyright laws, the circuit layout itself may be a copyrightable drawing, but the layout as it appears in a photomask of a chip is a functional object to create chips, not an artistic work of drawing, thus in some cases, it may be copied without violating copyright. It was exactly why the US semiconductor industry lobbied Congress back in the 1980s to create a special kind of "chip layout copyright" to cover this application, since "conventional" copyright is too weak. (P.S: Interestingly, following the same argument, it can be argued that PCB layouts, in many cases, can also be 100% copied without violating copyright, but nobody has lobbied Congress to create a similar kind of copyright, I suspect it was because the costs and stakes are high for chip makers, but are still too low for PCB makers so nobody in the industry bothered to do that).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit_layout_design_protectionPatentsA patent is attached to abstract ideas, such as a circuit topology or design. By obtaining a patent, the patent owner gains exclusively rights to prevent others from replicating the same design without authorization, no matter whether copying is involved or not. But, at the same time, the design itself becomes public. While you're prohibited from replicating the device, you're allowed, and even encouraged to learn and discuss how the invention actually works (which is the very purpose of patent laws). And once all relevant patents have expired, the design enters the public domain and becomes free for all.Trade SecretsAnd both are different from trade secrets. A trade secret, by its definition, is not patented. Making a design to be a trade secret instead of a patent is actually a rather risky decision, since once the trade secret has been rediscovered by a 3rd-party through legal means (such as reverse engineering a sample, or independent rediscovery), it automatically enters the public domain upon publication. But on the other hand, the benefits are: you can keep the design secret, you don't have to publish the design, and it doesn't have an expiration date. If the design is mysterious and arcane enough, it can last a really long time as a secret. For example, Tektronix's T-coil design equations for oscilloscope vertical amplifiers remained a secret for many decades.https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/analog/article/21807815/whats-all-this-tcoil-stuff-anyhowConclusionIn conclusion, every hobbyist and engineer, including your competitor, has the right to understand and discuss how a circuit works, based on legally-obtained samples and information. Don't say one can't talk about a circuit because of "patent", and don't say one can't use a circuit because of "copyright"... And 90% of the circuit boards you see in everyday life have no secret.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 05:06:20 am
content: Quote from: niconiconi on November 23, 2022, 04:05:43 amThis is an example of where the law is illogical and wrong.In music, copyright applies to a particular sequence of notes ("a fact"), and not the expression of that fact, nor merely the manuscript where the sequence of notes is written down. Everyone isnotfree to replicate the same sequence of notes independently, regardless of how they express them, not matter what instrument they are played on, and not matter what surrounding embellishment is included. If someone produces an entirely different musical work that incorporates the same sequence of notes, they can, and will be sued for copyright infringement (see for example, "Land Down Under" by Men At Work).It is completely illogical that if someone replicates (copies for gain) the same arrangement of components that was composed into a circuit by someone else, that they are not infringing a copyright. Why is an arrangement of musical notes protectable, but an arrangement of electronic components not? There is a double standard at work here.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 05:41:46 am
content: Entered thinking it was a nice book or something, "Secrets of electronics" but no way!

author: niconiconi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 05:52:04 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2022, 05:06:20 amThis double-standard is known as the "Useful Articles doctrine" under the US copyright laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States#Useful_articles) , and, as far as I know, it has been the rule for centuries since the very beginning of copyright. Essentially, copyright laws are primarily applied to artistic works, not functional works. While there is no shortage of creative and artistic elements in a functional engineering work, but first and foremost it's a practical object with an intrinsic utilitarian function. Thus, under the laws, the functional aspect of these objects are largely excluded from copyright laws deliberately, and is instead lies in the realm of patent laws (you can certainly create a pure artwork with circuit components, and that will be copyrighted as any work of art, but it's not the case for 99.9% of the electronic systems in existence)The US Copyright Office says:QuoteIn the words of Bruce Perens,Quote

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 07:57:14 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2022, 02:22:26 amEngineers*... specifically can't use copyright. That's why the PTOexists!e.g. offhand,https://www.lendio.com/blog/patents-copyrights-trademarks/*Except for source code (software engineers), which is copyrightable. Sometimes both, but that's its own can of worms.Note: whether or not patents are meaningful, useful, novel in a more broad sense -- is aside the point. They are a legal fiction and any real-world notions about them are strictly inapplicable -- or at least until tested as such in a court of law. Legal fact is different from scientific fact is different from (even more abstract, or such that it can exist) philosophical fact. While it would be nice if these were in fact all the same, for a variety of good and bad reasons, they are not!Tim

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 08:03:14 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2022, 05:06:20 amThis is an even murkier topic, as it carries its own specific case law:https://www.stockmusicmusician.com/blog/music-licensing-the-3-types-of-rights(disclaimer: didn't read this either for any kind of validation, just the top result to introduce the subject)Tim

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 08:40:06 am
content: Music industry is crazy. In many cultures, music is a way of telling stories and in the past even an important way of transferring knowledge and information between people and from previous generations to later generations. I'm convinced it still has this role to some extent. Now if you sit around a camp fire in the US and sing a song, you could get sued. How stupid is that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 08:58:34 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 23, 2022, 01:25:39 amIndeed. And you should be able to patent something if you can, say, fit the description of the invention and claims on two whole pages of A4, with a further four pages for diagrams only.Patents nowadays are so complicated that it is essentially impossible to make anything without possibly infringing a sub-claim of an extremely broad patent issued 10 years ago, never used, and sold on to a patent troll.I'd also change the legal system for patent lawsuits where the loser in the suit pays the legal fees of the company/individual they sue (currently, each pay their own), which would dissuade trolling.I'd also like to see patents released if no commercial use of the patent can be demonstrated after say 10 years but admit that's hard to enforce.

author: niconiconi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 09:30:06 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 23, 2022, 08:58:34 am*cough* *cough* US software patents... have some of the most notorious examples.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 10:29:02 am
content: Bonjour a tous: I have a lot of experience in this! A moment please to clarify some confusion:Copyright: . A work of art, music, text, books, etc. Fair use doctrine allows republication and copy use if credit is granted to the (C) owner or if the work is modified.Life is long but not unlimitedTrademark: The words or appearance of a distinctive mark to distinguish uniquelt the product or service eg Coca-Cola and the unique logo. Never expires!Patent: One definition is new combination of existing components that achieves a new, useful and unexpected result.See USC 35 for definitions and law.99.999 % of all patents are worthless, never enforced or licensed.Notice that patents are regional or national:The USA or EU patent can be enforced if the device or invention is made, sold or used in the region eg USA or EU. BUT is NOT enforceable outside the region, eg in China,20 yrs validity.A tiny fraction of patents are very valuable think of Ray DOLBY.Hope that you find this useful!Bon Journee,JonPS: since 1970s, we invented, patented Pro Se (no lawyer) seven patents.One in 1990s was negotiated or litigated 160 times, in my favor.$ went to lawyers, licensing firms or co inventors!

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 06:21:34 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 21, 2022, 07:19:40 pmIt's now a day after "tomorrow." How did it go?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 08:02:33 pm
content: Now he has to call Liam Neeson, because he has beenTAKENto the customer

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 08:36:52 pm
content: Maybe he's not allowed to tell us what happened, it's secret.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 11:58:06 pm
content: I'm disappointed. treez/faringdon hasn't "thanked" my posts. Whatever is the world coming to?!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:01:44 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 23, 2022, 11:58:06 pmHe was probably arrested for contravening the Official Secrets Act and will never be seen again

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:53:20 am
content: I dunno, while he tends to run in circles with his topics, I usually at least get the idea behind them.For this one, not so much.Was it about having having to fix lame SMPS designs?Was it about managers thinking that basic, datasheet SMPS designs were trade secrets?And how was the OP involved apart from working on fixing designs? Was he accused of giving away secrets? If so, to whom?Finally, what was the link with all the design work being outsourced to asian countries?Perplexed. The good thing with those unclear topics is that everyone can interpret them as they see fit and ramble on about one specific point that may not even have been exposed in the original post.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:01:07 am
content: i think patents have their place but people are mad greedy with schematics and parts list etc. At some point you are just trying to kill the little guy, and its mad annoying to have to confer with companies over obvious shit that is obscured to certify/validate/confirm/ensure the use of a product. talk about delays & overhead.................. people avoid doing tons of useful stuff because of all the bull shitgreat way to employ telephone and email fact finders though. Think being part of something big helps? No, they just wanna milk the budget even more. If you imagine a task like a car going down a road, usually the 'fog' caused by 'protection' adds a ton of dinks and dents that need expensive bodywork to repair. Oh I only hit 6 mail boxes this time, and thats just for lab work. but on the other hand artificial barriers that make progress slow make work easy. What are you doing? Waiting on someone, duh! company owner ends up paying, and its super easy to prove you are innocent too, because its always happening, not like you are even lying, and usually the risk of making a random decision has grievous consequences. (at your own risk, no one wants to be associated with that decision). But on the flip side there are often great ideas that get immediately shot down because simple stuff becomes too complicated because of this, so enjoy the general mediocrity (might get around this with skill & talent) .

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 03:17:37 am
content: What a walls of text just to answer one of those posts by you know who. And the directions the discussions are being taken. F must have a good laugh.Just do a job search in England. Some websites list over 500 power electronics engineering jobs. But upon close inspection it seems they are mostly looking for engineers who want to trade their secrets with the far east.Grow up.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 06:47:08 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 23, 2022, 11:58:06 pmYeah, what is up with that. Normally a for sure way to get a thanks from Faringdon, no matter what you post

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 24, 2022, 01:01:44 amIt's worse. The Chinese were so upset that he kept calling out their espionage on such proprietary, UK-invented power supply architectures like flyback and forward converters, that they've put a hit out on him. He's now in hiding, always looking over his shoulder, waiting for the coldness of the assassin's gun at every waking moment.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 08:29:49 am
content: with the chinese police stations fiasco, its more likely then you think. The way that some people were putting it, it did seem that if you some how get in the way of a chinese company with ties to the CCP (like friends) they might go after you. Every time there is some kind of government authorize/sponsored political related muscling happening, you can be assured that for a price, you can get something on the side related to business.I think it would need to be a little more specific then flyback converter and involve ALOT of money though (unless its government work, but thats a whole different story)... tldr: gangsters exist. While somewhat annoying, I don't want gangsters to be after forum members? I mean its just street lights.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:01:17 am
content: He's alive!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/how-soft-is-this-gap-pad/?topicseenMy guess is that this thread was started as his version of a joke.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:29:30 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 25, 2022, 10:01:17 amisn't all his threads?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:38:11 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on November 25, 2022, 10:29:30 amJokes are good. They cause great joy and lower one’s blood pressure. I find the excessive, pedantic rigidity of the perceived “engineer mindset” on here, claustrophobic and stifling at times.There’s more to life than electronics. Have a laugh, it’s a good tonic and you’ll live longer.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:12:49 am
content: Quote from: eti on November 25, 2022, 10:38:11 amAnd yet you keep coming here.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:53:08 pm
content: Quote from: eti on November 25, 2022, 10:38:11 amThe intent of this forum is to be electronics specific, the majority of us agree on that purpose.If you want less engineering mindset, maybe check out arduino/adafruit/etc forum.If you want something other than electronics, check outsome of these forums, or go outside.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 10:07:42 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 23, 2022, 11:58:06 pmHey, lick your wounds. I got a "like" here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/whats-wrong-with-smd-fets-on-pcb-lying-on-top-of-metal-plateheatsink/msg4546229/#msg4546229There was a time when I really felt for Faringdon and spent hours trying to give him advice based on my experiences. All of that was ignored, similar to another frequent poster from the UK here. I don't think he cares and apparently the UK has enough support services that he isn't starving to death. That's the one fear my mom instilled in me from a very early age, as ridiculous as it may seem today.**She was a teenager in a large immigrant family during the Great Depression. Everyone had to work.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 11:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 26, 2022, 10:07:42 pmOh, I'm revelling in itThanking everybody cheapens any value there might be in saying thanks.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 11:34:15 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 22, 2022, 07:10:15 pmWith same success you can label every surgeon as butcher because both are cutting flesh.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 11:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 25, 2022, 10:53:08 pmIt’s an intelligent person who is both engineering minded whilst being fun and light hearted. It seems rare and that’s a pity. I’m well aware this is an engineering forum and don’t need to be told that, but having a laugh seems long forgotten by most. 🤣

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 11:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2022, 11:18:36 pmYou mean its less than zero? I won't stand for that.One of the things I like about this site is the complete irrelevance of "like" scores.

author: Andy Watson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 11:56:38 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 26, 2022, 11:38:13 pmOh, hang-on-a-mo, did I just "like" that?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 11:59:28 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Watson on November 26, 2022, 11:56:38 pmLike here works same way as "thank you" in real world. Some pay attention to it, some don't.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 06:07:09 am
content: I should have been clearer. A thank you is polite, provides positive reinforcement to those trying to help, and using the thanks button avoids unnecessary posts.My point was that the score per se is meaningless. Some sites equate that score with helpfulness, in some cases even posting a percentage publically. In reality, one often sees more likes/thank yous given for comedy, YT videos, and OT than for technical advice. Various attempts to restrict "thank you" for technical help and "like" for everything else have been made, but they all fail. I have no objection to keeping it simple and in the background as is done here, but I wouldn't miss it if that button were removed.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 08:58:08 am
content: Actually he said, "I have been fixing up a bog standard couple of hard switched converters for a customer."A bog is an area of soft, wet ground.Hard switched? Does it use a knife switch? Or a toggle switch? Or is it a switch like my dad used when I got caught at something?Converter? What does it convert? Voltage? Frequency? Current?And "fixing up"? Is this a repair? A redesign to take care of some design problems? Or a new design entirely?And who's customer?Just what is this guy(?) talking about?He wants some advise on how to approach this. But is he an employee? Or an outside contractor? Or the CEO? I think people in those different roles would act differently. Or, at least, they certainly could. Personally I would have the "I QUIT, get yourself another whipping boy" card ready to play at an instant's notice.Quote from: Geoff-AU on November 22, 2022, 12:13:48 pm

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:02:57 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on November 27, 2022, 08:58:08 amGiven his history (as seen through the filter of this forum), I suspect he has limited options.

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 03:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 27, 2022, 09:02:57 amIs that you Mo-Dean?(sorry, slow day at work...)

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 08:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: Geoff-AU on November 22, 2022, 12:13:48 pmLOL, I'm slow. I only just got this yolk.. I mean joke.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 01:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on November 27, 2022, 08:58:08 amI realise you might be taking the piss, but just in case you haven't come across this colloquial phrase before,bog standardmeans basic and ordinary (without frills).And, I presume he meant 'hard switched' as in switched due to circuit condition (for instance, some threshold being reached tripping the switching device) as opposed to 'soft switched' which would mean being controlled by software.TreFarringdon can be a dork at times, but this sounds like a perfectly reasonable 20k foot view of whatever it is.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 01:37:47 pm
content: Hard switched vs soft switched refers to the rate at which the power switch is turned on, nothing to do with software. A hard switched converter uses as much gate current as possible to get the channel of the FET or whatever device to switch on as quickly as possible, reducing dynamic losses. A soft switched converter switches these power switches more slowly. This is typically combined with a converter topology that can enter ZVS/ZCS modes where the voltage or current across or through the switch at the moment of transition is minimal; these designs can then tolerate soft switching without excessive power dissipation in the FET/IGBT.A 'bog standard' hard switched converter is likely a lower power SMPS with hard switching of the FET, in an environment that either tolerates higher EMI but demands lower cost. A good example would be something like a simple 30W 12V mains power wall wart. Much above 100W the EMC considerations make topologies like this increasingly unaffordable and so you find ZVS/ZCS designs becoming dominant. I have however encountered an LCD TV with a 200W flyback converter for the backlight 24V supply, with a four-stage EMI filter and an additional external filter at the IEC connector. Me thinks the SMPS designer was a bit new there.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 02:37:40 pm
content: See, not hard to figure out what he meantUnless my suggestion was accurate

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 08:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2022, 11:18:36 pmHe hasn't thanked a single post in this thread, which is highly unusual. Perhaps he's not checked it? His profile says he's been logged on today, which is odd.

author: timenutgoblin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 09:56:28 pm
content: Just wanted to repost this since I removed it. It seems relatable to the Original Poster's story.Quote from: Faringdon on November 21, 2022, 07:19:40 pmThis happens:Quote from: BondFrom what I understand, the O.P. managed to survive (the inquest) unlike Dryden.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 10:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 26, 2022, 10:07:42 pmYeah, thats my theory, dude is living on assistance of some kind and this is all LARPing for a real world job.Even when "hired" for jobs its quit or abandoned without much care. Anyone that needs money for food and shelter would not have this mentality.Wonder how strict this JSA thing is:Quote