Best SMT assembly line for between 5K and 10K USD - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DaveHardy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2021, 08:01:21 pm
content: I've been looking at this product line because it seems like they have the best interfaces and the English on their website actually makes sense.https://www.kayosmt.euThey appear to be the same as or manufactured by this company:https://www.zjyingxing.com/I've used Neoden 4 in the past and didn't really like it because it has trouble with anything under .5mm pitch. I'm seeing a lot of the Neoden S1 machines for sale used with low mileage right now and am kind of scared. One guy on YouTube couldn't get his S1 or IN6 oven to work and sent them back.Suggestions?

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2021, 09:10:30 pm
content: $10k USD barely gets you a Charmhigh 48VB and ovens with manual stencil holders.Actually, that is about what I spent on my 48VB with some Controleo ovens and manual stencil holder... By the time I got done with fume extraction and all the odds and ends, I'm into this line for about $12k

author: DaveHardy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2021, 09:25:37 pm
content: What do you think of this: It's only 1K more than the one you've got.https://www.ebay.com/itm/313685850693?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item4909223a45:g:ixEAAOSwGblhTTge&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACoPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSB0Xm7k0guzAysaIMfJcbBHPC2Axqr680HUqv1lQ8aZ5bcDHUW4XnJDUNJ2xu6FcrdRBK5lkcK%252BEOhlfNRyxinnwchVkJmny%252F2RmtUOvuTR6jL9E%252BLLMscaKUf5ZTVC9E66RUk6WRbUFkGM8l0xG1VowhCeT6DfqRz2f9OIQQAV8mkgFOBHiZg%252B2R71py1AdzrybIBj86%252BHulE%252Fb72%252BXHwov54t8lAOPMOj1YfDdOfwMxABQ0hkW9yxNBpTGShvpaY6IOXxHyjZlQikz3DsBJjyBqYV49RFwaid4gv0a8gwU%252FTjeexOpI%252BgC8raL3zYgCRwz4kUqXmzJTFS%252B75lxkqPjJs24kMEDZtUqfbiSh43Wp4Pv6Ru0Ze%252FLlZPKEJlBQU6hrnWYzL1ykDQM4bW7whJvlouNORCxsIY16L6iCd9CrXk7CCA6gBTvh3Qq3vL25gvYKcJdRNxXfbZVlpZm8qZMFSiOQhHRVSXTyMOewmgcP04CEpqmFwSmEob4A2O052Cq97IhrHXwwVeixkzuQVnfcbvweMCP7Co2NiWEXPOAf%252B1k00fYBJ%252BN60wrGxZkr%252BILiYS2YKe8OFI4vObLFrEoZDXWsGvqxg%252BgZvLB68rhnyzFMF62gY7xMsdq2Q2UeEC%252Fe9y%252BYKAwXPMbsepwyCfZ9G8xsGUEQFzc2u9kJL4q9iu1dvNIdVO70jWOXVCIix%252FUV5REBadMvRMpQSBI9A8H1c3O182o8L4mZGm2U9Mjft4qk1UXZaUkJL6MSK%252BB4Y2YVjnCiHX05X%252FwwDfYXGrdpp8oitvAcAQaXbPb57q%252BOqg%252BN9rNRkfGMVP2LEMVuzLFXcoofH8seS85m2XHRMA%253D%253D%7Cclp%3A2334524%7Ctkp%3ABFBM3Jb-lqBf

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2021, 09:48:13 pm
content: You need to supply more information about your requirements: number of boards per day/week, number of components per board, minimum component pitch. How automatic do you want the line to operate? At the low end it will still be highly manual other than the actual placement of parts.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2021, 11:18:39 pm
content: Quote from: DaveHardy on November 08, 2021, 09:25:37 pmThis will need feeders

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 12:07:34 am
content: S1 was discontinued and rebranded as something else due to the issues it had when first released. It's like buying a car, if you see a particular model being resold in the 2nd hand market as soon as it got bought, what that tells you?

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 06:22:28 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on November 09, 2021, 12:07:34 amYeah I have been seeing alot of them on the market. Did neoden change their name to tronstol. I thought it was a nice form factor but needed to be alot cheaper with super sleek GUI - give essemtec fox a run for their money. I wish someone would make a machine like this with a turret head to get really fast cph.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 08:13:18 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on November 09, 2021, 06:22:28 amProbably it tried too hard to be an Essemtec. The reason behind the name change both machine and company weren't made public. It was a relief I didn't get one of these as I was offered one when it first came out but it was out of my budget in the first place.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 08:40:39 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on November 09, 2021, 08:13:18 amThere was 20 years of Essemtec experience in the ePlace software that comes on a FOX and 10 years of refining it since its release, plus a good understanding of what the customer that buys them needs and wants, which none of the (cheap) Chinese machines answer. Essemtec machines have always had a very good footprint to feeder lane ratio, most people are not lucky enough to fit their designs into the very restrictive lane counts on the tiny machines and more feeders also gives you more flexibility and lower changeover times, these can matter even in small assembly houses that are not focused on volume.The OP needs to justify their budget as well as set out their requirements; 10K really is nothing these days in business but you can certainly cobble something together if you need to and your requirements and reasons justify nothing else, I'm not sure you'd want to be relying on it for your livliehood tho'.

author: DaveHardy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 02:43:23 am
content: Thanks for the comments guys. I've got $$ to spend, but I need to be sure that these machines will place fine pitch components with minimal error. Right now, I'm looking at 2K USD per month in revenue from an SMT operation. I was using the Neoden 4 that belonged to a local shared space and hate it. I was also using their manual solder paste jig and three stage Neoden belt oven.I'm not placing anything smaller than 0805 on the Neoden. It can barely handle a few SOT-23's on my boards. Fine pitch ICs are a waste of time on the Neoden.I've never heard of the Essemtec stuff before. How much does the Fox machine sell for?

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 05:12:14 am
content: Essemtec just got bought out two days ago so who knows what direction new owner is going to go. They would spend decent amount of money on R & D. I met the NA president and they had strong commitment to make innovative products. They seemed to be pushing their jetting solutions and moving away from stencil printing, also it didn't sound like they were investing much in oven technology. I loved their fox4 design and would have bought one if it wasn't soo expensive and if it were alot faster. Their electronic feeders were an issue for me. I keep rooting for china companies to copy their design and make it much more affordable using mechanical feeders- even though I never heard good of any chinese pnp manufacturer.They really inspired me with their compact office concept! I really don't understand why no one else is doing this:I am interested to see how they compare to mydata machines. Fox is alot smaller but mydata seem to be alot faster. I like that both don't use windows os. Unfortunately both of these systems run over $100k with feeders. Is anyone aware of any chinese pnp manufacturer copying mydata system?

author: DaveHardy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 05:37:35 am
content: It looks like a great solution. Unfortunately, I can't justify spending 100K on it in the middle of a chip shortage / trade war.I'm pulling my hair out trying to talk to these guys at YX because that seems like the next best option if the Neoden 9 weighs 500KG!!! I can't figure out if that's before or after removing it from the crate. How am I supposed to get that thing up a flight of stairs? I'm absolutely baffled that none of these goofballs print accurate physical dimensions on their websites. Asking the YX guys about the 550, when it says 900mm width, got me this response:Quote

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 07:08:06 am
content: I fully agree. I wouldn't spend $100k either. Used pnp machines usually go for $5-20k BUT they are not intended for home use. Maybe an old Juki but most of these weigh too much, use too much power and require compressed air. That is the only downfall otherwise you can find older samsung, assembleon/yamaha, juki, universal, quad machines for under $10,000. Universal machines are really easy to find for cheap but weigh 6000 lbs. My fuji machines weigh 16,000 lbs which I love as they are extremely accurate, super fast, and reliable. Real PNP machines require the ground to be level, usually are super heavy (so they don't move when they are placing). I saw a new machine a few days ago where they are 3d printing pcbas but not sure how real that is.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 07:10:17 am
content: Quote from: DaveHardy on November 10, 2021, 05:37:35 amI wouldn't want the machine to weigh any less than that, otherwise if you run it any any speed it will jump around.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 09:30:26 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on November 10, 2021, 07:10:17 amexactly; the "table" in my Essemtec is full of a concrete composite. They are big and heavy for a reason. In the UK the Versatronics RV machines of old were a small lightish machine that was also cheap and could handle what you are after and now they are very extinct, very cheap. A more international equivalent would be a TWS Quadra, still made; older units might use jaw centering but that's good enough for 0805/SOT23, very compact machines that are quite popular, just not as slick as the modern Essemtec.In 2012 the robot half of our Essemtec was around €65K (not that they really wanted to break the price down that way) and then CLM Feeders were around an effective cost of €700 per lane and I'm led to understand the feeders have got more expensive since then.You could pay a Chinese machine premium and buy an Autotronik/Manncorp but the older machine support sounds truly sucky based on some comments here, or you buy a fairly chunky tabletop Chinese machine for double your budget (including accesories) and live with the niggles

author: DaveHardy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 05:52:15 pm
content: Ok. I get it. I don't have a problem with it weighing a ton, but It'd be nice if I could disassemble it and move it in pieces rather than moving the whole thing around at once.Does anyone have experience with the Neoden 9? It looks like it might be the best machine in my price class.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 09:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: DaveHardy on November 10, 2021, 05:52:15 pmI certainly wouldn't want to disassemble one to move it around. They're not designed for that.What about a Kayo A4?

author: DaveHardy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 01:16:08 am
content: Kayo hasn't gotten back to me. I've sent them a few e-mails. Their products look almost exactly the same as this manufacturer's.https://www.zjyingxing.com/

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:39:39 am
content: Try sending from another email address? They're normally very responsive with very good English.Yes, these mid-range Chinese machines are almost like an open source mechanical design. They all develop their own electronics and software though.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 05:30:51 am
content: This might sound like a shameless plug but I was in your shoe having a problematic machine and was looking for a proper replacement machine. I wrote about it here:https://www.rocketscream.com/blog/2020/07/04/picking-the-right-or-wrong-pick-and-place-machine/Hope that helps to open up your mind a bit because it's not small money you will be spending on.