Help with 4th grade project - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: DeadlyFoez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 05:33:31 pm
content: So my 4th grade child has to create a "water project". Basically anything to do with water. Being the dad that i am, i decided to go all out on making this project spectacular for her. We came up with the idea of using kelvins water drop electrostatic generator going into some leyden jars, which then will perform water electrolysis. The idea in it of itself is splendid, but we have hit a few snags.The kelvin water dropper works as it should. Once we hook up the leyden jars it all comes to a halt ans electrolysis does not occur.There are 2 main problems that i have identified. First being that the kelvin water dropper does not create enough current for electrolysis to happen. The second being that the natural dissipation of the leyden jars happens to quickly for the kelvin water dropper to ever "charge" them.Being the nature of the kelvin water dropper, you can never predict whichbwill be positive or negative. I figure i could fix that with a bridge rectifier. The problem of not enough current could possibly be fixed with a transformer to drop the voltage down and up the current a little.I do want to try to keep this as basic as possible though to really showcase the water aspect of this project without putting too much focus on other circuitry.Does anyone have any ideas for me as to what else may make this possibly work or if my thought process may be wrong as to my predictions as to why this does not follow through to the end desired result of this project? Thank you.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 05:48:12 pm
content: Are you asking for our help competing with fathers of other 4th graders? Something is wrong here. ;-)

author: DeadlyFoez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 05:56:44 pm
content: No. This town is full of toothless ghetto trash. I know most children will just come in with icecubes as their project. Withbas much effort that i have already put into this i know my daughter will get an A. There is not a competition here. I more or less now just want to know what i can dobto improve this if possible to get the end result that we are looking for.My daughter is autistic and this project means a lot to her so i want to be a good father and provide something that she can be proud of.

author: DeadlyFoez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 05:58:51 pm
content: As is, electrolysis likely is occuring, but in such small amounts that it is not measurable. I have a backup plan with doing the electrolysis using an 18v battery, but i would like to see if it is possible to stick with the original principal idea of this project.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 06:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: DeadlyFoez on April 14, 2015, 05:56:44 pmThis sentence makes you look like an unpleasant git of the highest degree.

author: DeadlyFoez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 06:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 14, 2015, 06:06:40 pmNo lie. The town has been having a meth and heroin epidemic. It is really bad. But that is now getting off topic.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 06:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: DeadlyFoez on April 14, 2015, 05:58:51 pmThe total energy held by the charge on the collecting buckets is very small, it simply won't be enough to perform any useful (or visible) amount of electrolysis on a continuous basis.You could use something like a neon lamp connected accross the buckets, possibly with an extra capacitor to increase the total charge collected. When the voltage across the neon reaches it's strike voltage you will get a flash of light. In fact you might even get good results from a fluorescent tube.

author: DeadlyFoez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 10:28:06 pm
content: Thank you for your input. I like the idea, too bad i dont have neon tubes,and that would likely take away from the water aspect.Does anyone think it is reasonable or possible to use bridge rectifiers and a transformer to make the elctrolysis happen *better*?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 06:04:22 am
content: Quote from: DeadlyFoez on April 14, 2015, 06:10:42 pmI hope you aren't talking about joshua treeI just did the electrolysis part for a science fair as a kid and that was damn impressive by itself. Generated a small test tube worth of hydrogen and then lit it on fire. Fun for everyone!

author: bills
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 06:20:47 am
content: I know this is not what you want to hear (I speak from experience) let your child do there own project that is how they learn. is not that the goal?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 06:27:42 am
content: Quote from: DeadlyFoez on April 14, 2015, 05:33:31 pmHere is a fascinating water related demonstration

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 06:45:21 am
content: Quote from: DeadlyFoez on April 14, 2015, 10:28:06 pmNo, it's not reasonable or possible. The static generator does not produce enough electricity to visibly electrolyze water. There is no possibility you can make this do what you want with any amount of electronics.On the other hand, you made a Kelvin dropper work! Do you know how hard that is? Merely generating sparks from dripping water is a huge achievement, close to magic. That itself must be a good demonstration.In case you weren't aware, the Kelvin dropper requires careful construction and adjustment to produce sparks at all. Get the slightest thing wrong and it won't work. You did well.

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 07:24:42 am
content: Prove computers can run in water. If you can get some distilled / de-ionized water, sink a old PC into it and watch it run.DISCLAIMER: That water better be VERY pure. Even sinking an old PC mainboard into the water corrupts it. Would have to pre-clean the board I suppose. I know for laser cooling applications, DI water is continuously ran through a DI filter to remote particulates.

author: DeadlyFoez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 11:22:37 am
content: Quote from: IanB on April 15, 2015, 06:45:21 amthank you. It was my first attempt at making one and it was flawless. Although i have seen a lot of them on youtube and it seems that people werent being all that careful and they had success. Luckily this creates a spark about every 4 seconds on average, with sometimes every 2 seconds. It is quite nice. I will post a pic when i get back to my pc.