The mess of FPGA development - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Arznei
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 05:50:22 pm
content: I am starting to think I am crazy here. Is it just me or is the toolchain situation for FPGAs severely f*ucked up? I confess: I am a total newbie, just want to get my first insights to the FPGA world and pulled a simple FPGA breakout board (miniSpartan3) from my electronics box (well I bought that one a few years ago but life happened and now here I am with a need for it).So the FPGA is a Xilinx Spartan 3A - I go to the Xilinx website, first impressions:1) The fancy new design suite doesn't support the older devices like the spartan 3 (and I'm not even sure there's a free version of it)2) So I go to the "ISE Design Suite", of which the newest version only supports Spartan 6.3) I have to download version 10 of it which is from 2008.4) It crashes on start-up, so I have to create some magic registry keys for it to even start5) It doesn't support the footprint I have, so I need to get a service pack. Which won't install for the first 2 trys but magically work on the third try.6) Now it somewhat runs but every half an hour or so it just crashes anyways. No way found to circumvent that so far.I am sorry if this is a bit of a rant. I'm just really frustrated. Like, how do you guys who work on FPGAs for a living even stand this? I get this is a rather old FPGA - but it is still in production, how can there not be an up to date way to program it?Is there any alternative to this whole mess? Like can I just use an editor of my choice to write up some VHDL and only use the xilinx tools to create the bitstream I need? How would I go about that if possible?

author: agehall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 05:55:36 pm
content: No, if you want to use old FPGAs, I think the story is pretty much the same for all the vendors.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 06:15:40 pm
content: I recommend looking into the cost-effective boards offered by Digilent. They have Spartan-7, and depending on the features you need on the board, the prices can be quite reasonable.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 06:18:45 pm
content: OS you mess with?

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 06:40:44 pm
content: Playing with old devices has severe hazards... try and get current if you can, the modern tools are much better (said by someone playing with a Max7000)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 06:46:18 pm
content: No, FPGA development is screwed up like this and no vendor is better than the others. And yet somehow it actually became much better in recent years than it was before. At least now with most vendors you don't have to fight FlexLM.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 06:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: Arznei on March 27, 2019, 05:50:22 pmMicrosoft isn't doing much with Windows 95 either. I love the Spartan 3 boards but I realize I have to install ISE 14.7 in parallel with the newer Vivado I need for my Artix devices.QuoteYes, Xilinx walked away from ISE once Vivado was up and running.QuoteWhy? I have 14.7 installed on Win 7 and Win 10 to work on projects using Spartan 3 and 3E. What I THINK Xilinx means is that 14.7 only works on familites UP TO Spartan 6.QuoteAs I recall, all you have to do is rename a couple of files which are already on your machine. It's nice to see that Xilinx now has a Win 10 version but it was never a big deal - the solution was all over the Internet.The problem started when Microsoft created a new version of the OS. Suddenly, a program on life support didn't work. Who's fault is that? Some published interface goes sideways but it doesn't make sense to blame it on Xilinx. Their ISE worked BEFORE Microsoft changed the interface. One of the hazards developers run across, daily!QuoteWhat does Google have to say? All of human knowledge is on Google. I have never had that problem.QuoteNever had that problem either and I have been using 14.7 since it was released and I think I started with version 6 (I'm not sure of that). Hit up Google. If you have a problem, it's a good bet somebody else had the problem and found a solution.QuoteA misguided rant, in my view. 14.7 works fine, I use is all the time with my obsolete boards. But the key word here is 'obsolete'. The entry level boards these days use Artix 7s and Vivado is the toolchain.Truth be told, I wasn't a fan of Vivado. I'm too old for such a seismic shift in the development tools. It took me a while to get back up to speed. Now I ALMOST prefer Vivado.QuoteRTFM! Some designers used that approach and probably still do. All of the Xilinx tools can be run from the command line or from a Makefile. Any editor can be used but one with language awareness, like the Vivado editor, seems preferable. Maybe Notepad++, it has support for Verilog and VHDL. I haven't used a Makefile but I would bet that the individual programs return error codes and failure at any particular step can be noted by 'make' and the process aborted.Here is a concise 423 page manual on command line tools for 14.5. Search Xilinx for something newer - there may not be an important change in the name and parameters for the tools.https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/sw_manuals/xilinx14_5/devref.pdfThere are some tools, like Data2Mem which allow BlockRam in bitstreams to be updated. This is very useful when you want to cram machine code into a CPU memory and change it as the CPU source code changes. To my knowledge, it ONLY works at the command line.Sit back, smoke 'em if you got 'em, and think about the realities of aging. Even Vivado is 7 years old. Here's an interesting fact: It took 1000 man-years and $200 million to create Vivado. ISE was 15 years old at the time...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xilinx_VivadoThe alternative is to change over to Altera or one of the smaller players like Lattice. It might work out...

author: pigtwo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 06:56:56 pm
content: QuoteWhy do you have to use ISE 10? ISE 14.7 supports all Spartan 3's. I've used ISE 14.7 for Spartan 3 designs and didn't run into many problems. Now ISE is not great but in my experience it's not crashing every 30 mins bad.For reference I've used ISE 14.7 on Windows 7 for years and it's fairly stable. I think for newer Windows you have to use a VM but it's about as painless as Xilinx could make it. But still a little crazy that you have to do that.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 07:21:21 pm
content: You need to get one of the older iSE versions to do Spartan 3A development. I think you can use up to iSE rev 14, but check the release notes.I still support some really old stuff, but the oldest I actively develop for is the Spartan 3A and 3AN (has the EEPROM in the package).I run the Linux version, and it is quite reliable. I used to do this on Win XP in a virutal machine, using iSE ver. 10, and had no problems, either.Now, there are a HUGE number of development options, and maybe you are doing something wrong, and once you get familiar with the package, the crashes will stop.Not only can you use the editor of your choice, but there is a way to SELECT your preferred editor in a menu somewhere. I've never done it, but I DO use an outside editor for all major hacking on the VHDL files. iSE automatically detects the files have new update times, and recompiles only what is changed.There was a change in (I think) 2016 where the 3AN started using a larger EEPROM, and you have to force a different module to be used in impact to download the configuration, or you get a REALLY cryptic error message, But, if your dev board is older than that, or uses external EEPROM, you won't run into that issue.Jon

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 07:28:34 pm
content: Quote from: pigtwo on March 27, 2019, 06:56:56 pmYou don't! I just followed the directions at Xilinxhttps://www.xilinx.com/support/answers/62380.htmlI found it with a Google search 'xilinx ise 14.7 windows 10 fix'This compatibility problem with Win 8.1 and Win 10 just isn't a big deal. Google is all over it! So is Xilinx. But that doesn't excuse the user from having to do a little searching.When I first installed 14.7 on Win 10, it blew up. Now what? It doesn't work! The sky is falling...So I Googled for the solution and, voila', I wasn't the first person to encounter the problem. It was a well known issue and the fix was also well known. No big deal! Just hit up Google, all of human knowledge is out there.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 07:31:26 pm
content: Quote from: pigtwo on March 27, 2019, 06:56:56 pmI second that. ISE 14.7 is the most recent release that you should use for the Spartan-3 and Spartan-6, I believe. It's old-fashioned and bloated, and sometimes gives spurious "synthesis failed" errors (upon which you just have to try again). But it has never crashed on me yet.Have you found this technote on how to fix things under Windows 10? Without the DLL swap desribed there, ISE terminates as soon as you open a file selection dialog, if I recall correctly:https://www.xilinx.com/support/answers/62380.htmlEdit: Ah, I see that rstofer has just beaten me to it.Edit2: Congratulations, rstofer, on post #5555!Now you can never post again to preserve that magic number.(Or make 1111 posts real quick...)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 07:37:02 pm
content: In the bad old days, hobbyists wouldn't even have access to development tools like Vivado. Who would invest $200 million and then give the product away?One of the side effects of being really old is that I remember when static RAM came out and LEDs were a new thing. Along the way there were some neat devices for which I could never afford the tools. They were strictly marketed at manufacturers.From the point of view of support costs, it makes sense to avoid the hobbyists.

author: pigtwo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 08:38:35 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 27, 2019, 07:28:34 pmOh wow! I was just thinking I didn't want to move to Windows 10 because I didn't want to deal with the whole ISE VM malarkey. I figured Xilinx was never providing any kind of support of ISE again. What's super weird is Xilinx had that special Windows 10 version that came on a VM. They went through all the trouble to package ISE in a VM and have the user interact with ISE through a VM when the fix was as simple as renaming files? Maybe I'm missing something about their reasoning for doing this but that seems like way more work than what the eventual fix was.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 09:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: pigtwo on March 27, 2019, 08:38:35 pmThe Windows 10 version is a recent development. I installed 14.7 in August 2017 and this option wasn't available. It has been working ever since. I just went to Google...Maybe Xilinx took the easy way out and relieved themselves from taking heat over the file renaming solution. Or maybe their users weren't comfortable with changing file names"Here, run it this way and leave us alone!"

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 09:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: Arznei on March 27, 2019, 05:50:22 pmYes.Pretty much any professional and highly specialized (niche) software will be the same (I mean with compatibility issues years later). In fact some will be way worst, they won't run at all.Xilinx IDEs (including its former versions) are one of the most friendly and well maintained packages out there, maintained over many decades, on both Linux and Windows. Still available for download even today. For free. Compared with other SW IDEs, you must admit this is quite a record. Yet, one still need to RTFM.In my experience the Xilinx IDE was good.What version of Xilinx and version of OS are you using? Sometimes it's just the OS, and a virtual machine can fix the problems.

author: Mr.Elendig
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 10:14:49 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 27, 2019, 07:37:02 pmThankfully there are now projects like iCEBreaker and free software stacks for fpga development. (Though with a rather small selection of supported devices)

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 11:07:51 am
content: I never really understood why they drop whole device families for new SW. How hard can it be to import all the data in a new SW suite? The data exists. If it is no compatible with the new environment or can be made to be with minimal effort you're not doing it right...Had to run a Spartan II device earlier this year.. I accidently installed the VM version of 14.7 first. Then installed 14.7 "vanilla", wrestled with it for some time to get it running on Win10, figured out II wasn't supported on it and installed 10.0 in the end.Off course, I couldn't get the programmer to work in Win10 so I had to reinstall 14.7 (which I had previously deleted to make room on my poor 256GB SSD...)....Yeah, you're not alone..

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 02:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr.Elendig on March 28, 2019, 10:14:49 amWhich just about eliminates using modern devices. Using open source software almost always precludes optimal routing and the use of special features. This just isn't an arena where open source brings anything to the dance.There are a few complainers here but the reality is, Xilinx is giving us access to quality software - FREE! As in it didn't cost a dime!Was I happy when I found ISE crashed on Win 10? Of course not! But 10 minutes later I had it running so what's the big deal? Nothing ever works right out of the box and ISE/Win 10 is one of them.Having spent $200M, how much more should they spend on Vivado to add in obsolete devices for which there is already a free toolchain? Of course they're going to cut the project off. They have coverage for all the devices, they have a more modern toolchain for the current, and more modern, devices yet they still support the older devices. Looks like pretty good coverage to me. Yes, it would be nice to have the ILA with older devices but I didn't have it before and I don't have it now.It's also fair to just change vendors. Altera is looking for customers, maybe it's time to vote with your feet.Meanwhile, I'll stay where I am. ISE and Vivado both work and since I use Digilent boards, I haven't had to worry about whether various device programmers work. I suspect they do but all the current Digilent boards have on-board USB programmers so I'll never find out.Were're talking about FPGA development, the pinnacle of design. And some folks can't find the solution to ISE 14.7 on Win 10 using Google?

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 02:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 28, 2019, 02:16:47 pmWell...QuoteFrom a bussiness perspective enough to keep that from happening. And as I mentioned before: how much can it really cost them to port it? I wouldn't even mind if ILA and other whistles and bells weren't supported.

author: cyr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 03:20:45 pm
content: I've used Xilinx tools since ISE v6.x, and long since learned to accept that FPGA development software just sucks. You learn to live with or work around the obvious bugs, like crashes, "unexpected" errors etc, and hope there aren't any subtle ones that will bite you later. I think it's the natural result of the complexity, niche market, lack of competition and perhaps that FPGA makers just suck at software development?The absolute worst example I remember is the Xilkernel RTOS and related EDK libs. The mistake of actually trying to use that in a product cost quite a lot, and looking at the code while tracking down the bugs really made me wonder about the company that allowed that to be released... Yes, it's free (with source) and probably not developed by the same team that make the FPGA tools but still - these free tools exist in order to sell the chips, and the chips don't do anything useful without the tools.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 03:41:15 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on March 28, 2019, 02:54:37 pmProbably multiple millions. How far back should they go? If it cost $200M to create an IDE plus the hard part adding more 'hard part' isn't going to be free or even cheap. Plus they would have to maintain/upgrade/fix/validate (the really big cost) the new software to accommodate devices they no longer produced. What a colossal waste of money.They made a business decision: They had coverage for the older devices and they had a new toolchain for newer devices. They had no intention of supporting the older toolchain or the older devices. It was time to move on.We still have a toolchain for the obsolete devices. They didn't just withdraw the software, they drove a stake in the ground. Then they moved on.I support the decision and I'm sure the stockholders feel the same way. This is a business, not a hobby shop. In the end, it's about the money!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 03:47:12 pm
content: I use ISE 14.7 on Win7 regularly and have for years, it works fine. I like the Altera software better in most cases but both are big bloated complex programs. This is just the nature of FPGAs, getting the toolchain running is the easy part.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 03:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 28, 2019, 03:41:15 pmI have no supporting evidence to the contrary but it seems a bit much. Especially if you put "a stake in the ground" concerning new features.QuoteYes. Of which they will loose considerable amounts if people go shopping on the other side of the hedge because they are fed up with it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 03:51:33 pm
content: If they go shopping on the other side of the hedge they'll find exactly the same situation. I have two different versions of Quartus installed side by side in order to support all the devices I work with.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 04:10:29 pm
content: I'm well aware. But the argument works in the other direction as well: a vendor that supports devices for longer in their latest SW would have an additional notch on their scoresheet while selecting devices which would bind customers more closely

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 04:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on March 28, 2019, 03:48:32 pmNot really! Real, paid, designers will always pick the latest and greatest chip because they don't want to design into an end-of-life situation. Their bosses would worry greatly about obsolescence.So, chips older than -7 just don't matter. At best they are maintenance items, not recommended for new designs. If anybody is designing into obsolete parts, they deserve what they get. Worst case, dedicate a Win 7 machine to ISE 14.7. I have a machine like that. I don't use it much since I built a new go-fast Win 10 machine to support Vivado. But ISE 14.7 also runs on Win 10 so it's not important.There's probably nobody on this forum who can cause even a blip in Xilinx's revenues. We just don't matter in the bigger scheme of things. They are doing us a courtesy by giving the software away for free. So, why do they give us the software?Probably to get more eyeballs on the software.People can bark at the moon all they want but the reality is this: New chips, new software. Old chips, old software. Pretty simple! And the moon doesn't care if people bark at it.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 04:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 28, 2019, 04:17:16 pmPlease. Plenty of markets that can't support the respin of a board or won't tolerate changing a resistor before requalifying or going through acceptance again for the entire product. I *am* a real, paid engineer and I have learned a long time ago that going for the most shiny new toy isn't always the best solution. FPGA lifecycles tend to be a *lot* longer than, say, consumer HW. For fun and giggles I checked on Digikey: Spartan II parts are shown as active.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 04:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 28, 2019, 04:17:16 pmOn past projects/employments TI and Broadcom would get their panties wet if we announced a new product. With another employer we had framework contracts with both Xilinx and Altera.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 04:36:48 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on March 28, 2019, 04:10:29 pmIt's the validation that is going to cost a ton of money. Remember, routing and special features has to be perfect under some set of test designs and it also has to be perfect in terms of all user designs on the planet. "It used to work under ISE!". It would cost a ton of money to accommodate these obsolete devices. I'll stand on multiple millions... BTW, they also need to bring forward all of the warts and idiosyncrasies. Why would they want to bring forward all of the warts. That's what they are trying to get away from. Start from scratch and leave out the warts!I liken upgrading large software to poking on an inflated balloon. You poke here, it bulges there. You fix one problem and break three more. At some point you give up and start over. Just like the old days of FORTRAN: The best programs were written after the programmer dropped the box of cards.I doubt companies care much about a scoresheet. They buy the latest and greatest devices to delay obsolescence. But everybody knows that things change and it would be foolish to spend the money to add Spartan 2 to Vivado. I like Spartan 2 (5V IO) and I have a couple of boards but I certainly don't expect Xilinx to add the device to Vivado. ISE still works fine. And it would be unfair to add Spartan 3 and not include Spartan 2. What came before Spartan 2? Why wouldn't they be included? Somehow we need to kill off Windows 95 and Windows 3.BTW, what's the advantage to Vivado over ISE if not for ILA? The Vivado constraints file alone is enough to drive me back to Spartan 3s and ISE. What a nightmare!In my view, the learning curve for Vivado is MUCH steeper than for ISE. Were I teaching my grandson about FPGAs, I might actually start with Spartan 3 boards and ISE. At least to get started.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 04:55:50 pm
content: Nothing in Xilinx's decision says you can't design/buy/support obsolete chips. You have today what you had then: ISE. Go for it!If your product can stand moving forward, well, there's a new toolchain. Nobody is forcing you to use Spartan 2 for new designs but it you do, you will have to use the toolchain that supports the chip. What's the big deal? It's what everybody was using when the device was current. Realistically, all of the project files will already be compatible with ISE and certainly not Vivado (especially the constraints file).ISE works, it is still viable, and if you insist on using old devices, it's the toolchain of choice.I worked in an industry where computers couldn't be upgraded, compilers couldn't be upgraded and source couldn't be changed without a MAJOR verification process. It was too cumbersome to even contemplate. So, we stayed with obsolete computers, obsolete compilers and obsolete software because they were PROVEN to get the right answers for our design process.If you take the purported $200M and 1000 man-years, you can get to $200k/man-year. Would I believe it would take more than 5 man-years to port the old devices? Well, when ratioed against 1000 man-years for the project, sure! I believe it could take 10 or 20 man-years to port the devices depending on how far back they went. And no matter where they drove the stake, people would be upset that their favorite device wasn't included.$200k/man-year seems about right, if not a little light. Figure $150k for wages and 35% for overhead (employer social security, medical insurance, worker's compensation, paid vacations, sick leave, etc).

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 04:59:18 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on March 28, 2019, 04:24:36 pmAnother real paid engineer here. We split the difference.On one hand, we do relatively low-volume long-lifetime products, so the need to support older devices is always there. This means most of us run Windows 7, and we have ISE 14.7 installed next to Vivado. There are a few Windows 10 installs, but the move to that platform is painful for reasons beyond supporting older FPGA tools. Nobody likes it when Windows decides it must install a patch and reboot, borking an overnight experiment. I have a CentOS disk in my machine and can boot it and run the tools on it and at some point that will be my main set-up. (Maybe sooner rather than later if those rumors of Altium running on Linux come true.)On the other hand, for new designs, we look ahead to what is entering mainstream now. What's the newest device we can buy from DigiKey or Mouser? (Not that we always buy from them, but they're a pretty good indicator of not-huge quantity availability.)On the gripping hand, if an older design needs a board refresh, we'll look to see whether it makes sense to change to a newer FPGA device. Usually, we don't.-------------------------My current project is based on an FPGA device which has been qualified for the operating environment. The vendor's most-recent tools release no longer supports that device family. We have started conversations with the customer about this. Will they do a last-time buy and stockpile the parts? Will they want to qualify that vendor's newer devices? Will they get assurances from the vendor about availability? Lots of questions, no good answers.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 05:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 28, 2019, 04:17:16 pmAlso, real paid designers don't give a shit about "FPGA boards." We don't use them, we don't care about them, so whether the latest version of the toolset supports an old board is not important. We just design the devices into our product's boards and go.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 05:14:19 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on March 28, 2019, 05:04:18 pmExactly...the boards you buy from Intel/Altera, Digilent, etc. are for tinkering. I seriously doubt any of them are used in a serious production device.BTW, nice username, I have one of those amps.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 05:21:47 pm
content: Most of the dev boards are targeted at university students. I've seen them used in professional settings in the proof of concept stages or one-off devices for in-house use but they wouldn't be integrated into a product.I don't really know what the big deal is here though. I use old devices with old tools, so what? If it won't run on Win10 that's because Win10 is a turd, I wouldn't bother updating older software to work on it either, especially when there is a native Linux version.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 05:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on March 28, 2019, 02:54:37 pmThe dilemma of removing support from latest revisions of software is not new nor restricted to a single company. The cost of maintaining support is largely due to testing, which tends to become more and more difficult over the years where development boards or devices become proportionally more expensive (when compared to newer generations) and less interesting financially (less incoming money from customers as newer devices replace older generations).Also, the time where frameworks are changed is the time to make the hardest decisions regarding support. I don't know Xilinx tools very well, but it seems to me the older generations were dropped when the framework that comprised the ISE software was dropped in favour of the newer one (Vivado?). Customers tend to understand such decisions better when there is a major revision of the support software.There is also the development intricacies: not everything can be easily ported across frameworks. Sometimes things that were developed for a full custom IDE (typical of the 1990s and 2000s) are not easily absorbed by, say, Eclipse or Netbeans. The decision then becomes a very pragmatic one: what can be ported with the allotted money and before the deadline to release device "X"?Quote from: Ice-Tea on March 28, 2019, 02:54:37 pmIME this does not work. The confusion created when the new framework has only partial support for specific devices is a big frustration maker and a support burden. Not to say it doesn't happen with newer generations, but any efforts to minimize this with less profitable product lines is certainly a huge benefit.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 05:58:03 pm
content: One way of looking at it: Xilinx introduced a new set of chips and a new toolchain. Old chips continue to use the old toolchain.I wouldn't be surprised if manufacturers archive the exact version of the toolchain they used to create their product. I would! Whatever assumptions were made to get the device working are known to work under the original toolchain.When I worked for Control Data, we joked about the fact that it cost as much to ship a copy of the operating software as it did to ship the mainframe.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 06:15:31 am
content: When you have complex tools that are used by only 10s of thousands of people you test it and support for known-good configurations.Only when you have complex software for millions or billions of users does it get slick as Web browsers....(I suggest you install the suggested OS in a VM)

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2019, 06:03:10 pm
content: I just got a new Lappy w. 1TB SSD & 16G Ram.I decided to install a new Linux Mint 19 (Ubuntu 18.04 engine) from scratch.As i had to "tickle"Quartus 13.0Sp1andISE 14.7a bit , when i had them installed on my old Lappy - Mint 17.3 (Ubuntu 14.04 engine).I decided to install them both in a VirtualBox this time , still using Mint 17.3 in the VM. As this would mean i could just copy the Vbox image to a new machine.I now have both up & running in Vbox , after a little bit of Vbox USB magic ... (For the programmers)My "fanciest" is a Spartan 3A , so i have never had use for Vivado (yet)But both Quartus & ISE works ok on Linux/Bingo