Electric road in Detroit - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: R-1125F
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 06:52:16 pm
content: This just showed up in the news. It does not look economical at this time.https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/electric-road-in-detroit-can-wirelessly-charge-evs-as-they-drive-199115845840

author: Joebeazelman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 08:10:05 pm
content: Every new transportation infrastructure scam is practically a train.

author: Enginears
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 10:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: Joebeazelman on December 01, 2023, 08:10:05 pmI'm genuinely curious:- How is this electrical induction road + the EVs that can charge off it 'practically a train'? How does this technology have anything at all to do with trains?- What qualities of this proof-of-concept demonstration can justify your characterizing it as a 'transportation infrastructure scam'?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 10:46:39 pm
content: That looks like the future.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 10:51:20 pm
content: https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2022/09/21/partners-on-the-first-in-the-us-public-wireless-ev-charging-roadhttps://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/11/29/mdot-city-of-detroit-and-electreon-unveil-the-nations-first-public-ev-charging-roadway-at-mi-centralQuoteI can see this being a thing in the farrr distant future where electricity is near free, but this is dumb to do now.Also niche use cases where you'd be parked and want to charge without having to go out and plug in a cable (buses, ambulances, etc.). But they clearly aren't mentioning that in the article, they are saying how it can be use to make money

author: Enginears
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 05:15:54 am
content: The way I see it, the main barriers to EV adoption today are anxiety over range, the cost of a battery stack capable of giving an EV a comparable range to a ICE vehicle (say 300-350 miles, 485-560 km), the time it takes an EV to charge to full capacity at the end of its range, and the need to install today's charging pole & cable with connector charging stations everywhere.The engineers at GM have demonstrated a proof of concept where a vehicle with this inductive charging system on a roadway with a field generator installed cancharge while movingandactually increasing total chargewhile moving.The caveat in the video is that the vehicle is not traveling at a high rate of speed on the road during the demonstration. So it's energy requirements are lower than an EV travelling at full speed. We can assume that this charging system can only keep up with this lower demand at lower speeds. Now, if you accept that the technology can improve over time, then we can play with the hypothetical that vehicles can charge on top of traveling at a reasonable 'full speed'.If that alone becomes possible, then some very interesting economics come into play.80% of Americans, for instance, live in cities. If you can install this technology along the commuter routes and major artery roads, then the work commute and much of travel within cities for 80% of Americans will not impact the charge level of the vehicle. That would allow city-specific commuter vehicles to be built with a battery range of, say 20-30 miles (30-50 km). That's an order of magnitude smaller battery. Because big batteries are the largest contributor to high EV costs, having vehicles with small batteries that charge while driving is a route to much cheaper commuter EVs. It also simultaneously reduces the supply-side burden of rare earth minerals and lithium, both of which are strategic levers for China, which holds the availability of these raw materials as a diplomatic stick to threaten other powers by withholding them.For the EVs needed for longer haul distances and those that operate in rural areas, the current EV battery size could be kept. Strategically placed strips of interstate highway between cities could be installed to enable long haul distances. In this scenario, one of these vehicles could travel on battery power for a few hundred miles/kms and then, when it reaches say, 2/3 depleted, would reach the area where it charges the battery while moving. Once topped off, the EV would then continue on to either its destination or the next strip, topping up again and again. No long stops to recharge at the freeway-side rest stop, the other big barrier to EV adoption.Finally, the inductive charging could be installed underground in parking spaces, eliminating the need to install posts with chargers basically everywhere, as we would have to today. EV charging posts are notoriously prone to failure in the connector, in the terminal, and in the cable. This contactless charging would eliminate those issues.While what we are seeing in the video is strictly, "Hey! This is what we're thinking about and it works in a limited way," as a proof of concept it's exciting from a strategic standpoint for an entire nation's infrastructure. Do they have a long way to go? Definitely! Is it a pointless line of inquiry that causes more problems than it solves? I don't think so. They're trying to solve the problems of a large required battery capacity, slow charging time, range issues, and total EV cost. As a strategy, a smarter road system might be the way to solve all these problems.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 08:49:40 am
content: Quote from: Enginears on December 02, 2023, 05:15:54 amDoes no-one ever dig up the road where you live? Do you never get potholes? This is as good an idea as solar roadways.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 01:57:05 pm
content: My thoughts are,How to you prevent people stealing power? Just place a coil on the road and it's free power.Would it kill my phone as I walked across the street? Or any inductive item.What does it do to your health? With the vaccine giving us improved 5G connectivity what are the changes that the conspiracy nuts will blow a cap on the idea of wireless power for stuff.How much power loss/wastage are we willing to loose.I think this is just another thing thought up to get investment money with very little chance of it getting anywhere. Taking away funds from actual solutions.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 05:51:37 pm
content: Does no-one ever dig up the road where you live? Do you never get potholes? This is as good an idea as solar roadways.I don't see these problems as totally killing this idea. Whether your roads have copper coils underneath the road or not, potholes will still form and roadwork will need to be done. In both cases, you can't drive on the road. If you've ever seen a road repaved, the workers carefully pave around existing utilities like manholes for sewer and power. I would imagine they would do the same for these, too.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 10:17:04 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on December 02, 2023, 01:57:05 pmYes. But the misconception would be to believe that we (as a whole) actually want to go anywhere at the moment. I'm not convinced this is the case.Meanwhile, some people get a lot of money that eludes most of others.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 01:07:51 am
content: How much power is being lost due to inefficiency?Might as well go with an ICE if it's not better than 90%...Also, why are they driving so slow? Will it work if I driving at 50km/h? Or 100km/h?ASLO, am I being charged for the electricity I receive, or for the power that was put in before losses?Here in Montreal, it costs more per mile for public charging stations versus gas for an ICE. Public charging is a rip-off.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 11:01:57 am
content: Quote from: fmashockie on December 02, 2023, 05:51:37 pmYou get a pothole over a coil, it's going to kill the coil when vehicles drive over it. And your belief in the care exercised by road workers is touching, but a bit unrealistic.EDIT: It would be interesting to see the effect of an HGV driving over one of these coils and grinding the windings together, given the prospective currents at play here...

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 03:52:05 pm
content: I would be interested in how they deal with differences in thermal expansion of the road materials and how they shift over time.Not sure how it works in other countries but a significant amount of infrastructure is under the roads, like sewage, water, gas, and internet cables and this all gets dug up on a regular basis as thinks break.The coils would have to be fairly small (1 to 10m) otherwise when it breaks it will take down a good part of the road.I can see it working in some cities though. Especially where traffic rarely moves. Bristol and London being the UK cities known for being hellish to drive through.Btw when I was taking about engery loss. I was referring to induction charging systems that are typically 30 to 40% energy loss, and that is just for phones up close not a car at >300mm.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 04:13:11 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 03, 2023, 01:07:51 amThis is one of the ways something can be made out to be useless before any thought is given to it: it's not either/or. If you're in an EV anyway and running a bit low, wouldn't this be good for you? If you're not then it doesn't affect at all, so in the end it helps some, doesn't hinder others, and that's a net plus.Of course, it has to work, but let's not get the biases in at the start.QuotePossibly more efficient at slow speeds (and/or the energy being pumped in isn't going straight out in keeping up speed). And perhaps that demo road isn't too long so they don't want to run out of it too quickly in the videoQuoteGood question but irrelevant: you pay what they charge or don't take it, so whether or not you're paying for the provider's gold pension is only a factor in that you might think it too high to pay.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 04:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on December 02, 2023, 01:57:05 pmThat was my first thought, but it needn't be a killer. Just make the road a poll road and you both restrict who can take power and charge them for it at the same time.An added benefit is that people then don't expect every single road in the country to be converted and then 'bust' the idea when it becomes obvious that it can't be done.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 11:37:43 pm
content: Isn't Detroit a failed city with rampart crime, unemployment and homelessness, everything closed down?And this is how they spend their money?Our politicians are really so far removed from reality.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 11:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 03, 2023, 11:37:43 pmAnd so maybe people electing them are.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 12:41:20 am
content: Is it Detroit that's spent money on this? Or is it someone else that's found a city willing to be bought off to let them try it out? If the latter then surely it's good for Detroit even if it's rubbish idea.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 12:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 03, 2023, 11:41:36 pmHow was it in South Park? The two party system is broken.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 10:10:56 pm
content: Yes, it is.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2023, 01:10:47 am
content: Quote from: Enginears on December 02, 2023, 05:15:54 amDepending on the city, 60-90% of commutes are sub 50 miles round trip (80km), which can be done with <15kWh, a relatively tiny pack.Until you can convince people here that small cars are OK to buy or legislate away non-commercial trucks and SUVs, nothing will change.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2023, 06:16:16 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 06, 2023, 01:10:47 amOn the (mostly) flat, in "normal" (ie around 20c ambient) temperatures, carrying no extra load.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2023, 01:54:33 pm
content: This looks like it could be implemented in manufacturing where electric vehicles take parts to different points on assembly line.This indoor use would make installation and maintenance of the charging system more manageable.There are lots of "robotic" functions like this that use battery powered vehicles and the lead acid batteries are changed and recharged when low.I guess the implementation of this technology would depend on the efficiency of the energy transfer as compared to the energy transfer involved in charging batteries.Maybe the robotic delivery carts would not even need batteries?These vehicles do not consume anywhere near the electricity that a HiLo Forklift does.Just some thoughts, I have not been in a manufacturing plant for many years.Maybe they are already doing it?

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2023, 02:05:51 pm
content: The vehicle powered by this contraption is a Ford., so i highly suspect Ford is behind this.As far as "cost" I would think that the implementation of this short charging line is minuscule compared to the R&D money spent on the project.Especially the repaving...There are always roads that need repaving... just pick one and go from there...They seem to have picked one in an area that has little traffic. I am from Detroit and believe I know the location of the project. (or at least close).EDIT: I think this is part of a bigger project that is being done by Ford as it is near this project:https://www.freep.com/picture-gallery/news/local/michigan/detroit/2022/01/12/michigan-central-station-new-transformation-details-photos-site-enters-final-phase/9176548002/

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2023, 05:05:33 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on December 06, 2023, 01:54:33 pmIn a closed environment like that it's probably more efficient to have automated docking ports, unless you need 24/7 operation.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2023, 09:33:35 pm
content: 24/7 cost 3x the single shift operation for flesh & blood. Why would they not go 24/7 if they don't have that cost?

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2023, 11:47:00 pm
content: AVG has a point. The small robotic delivery vehicles can return to charging station when they need to. Like Rumba. This requires some spare units though. They kind of rotate.I think this is the way it is done today, at least it used to be. This way you can support three shifts with deliveries, although three shifts are not as common as in the past since it does not allow time for regular maintenance on some machines.The RF charging or direct powering of robotic vehicles would be nice and I just wondered if it was practical. I would think that if it was such a good idea, someone would have implemented it in production plants....

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 05:45:39 pm
content: Soooo, is the US different in this than we are with copper thieves? We've got people who'll do thousands of EUR worth of damage to get a few EUR worth of copper piping from a building in construction. Just saying, juicy copper coils would be ripped out within half a year.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 05:50:53 pm
content: Dodging traffic while digging up a road is a little bit different to pulling cables or pipes out of a wall. But no doubt someone would try it

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 07:22:23 pm
content: Plain name, have you not heard tales of people taking copper from the power lines on train lines....live ones. A few have been fried.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 10:19:18 pm
content: I suspect those would still be easier than digging up the road. At least for most perps. I could imagine a group kitting out in hi-vis and with (probably nicked) traffic signals, looking like pukka road crew.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 10:45:39 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on December 10, 2023, 10:19:18 pmThey do exactly this to steal York stone flags (hence Councils now taking the step to mark them with SmartWater), no reason to think it wouldn't be a method used to steal any number of things out in plain sight.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 10:57:12 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on December 10, 2023, 05:50:53 pmI've seen pictures of copper thieves arriving with a truck, traffic cones, yellow vest and hard hat, and they stole live wires for a tram line in broad day light, while the tram was on the other end of the line. If you are somewhere with a hard hat and yellow vest you can do whatever you want.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2023, 01:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 11, 2023, 10:57:12 amApprox 90% of the rail infrastructure was stolen by me during lockdown, often organised crews, with all the vehicles, and such, stealing thousands of kilometres of copper overhead wiring, brass overhead lines, and even track, all removed, cut up into lengths, and put into containers and moved out as scrap. Not only remote lines, even the ones right into the city, and even in front of police stations as well, with nobody doing anything about it. When you have a railway that had to go to court, to get people who decided to squat in the railway reserves, across the lines even, and who stripped the local stations down to bare ground, stealing the bricks, and even the rail, sleepers and concrete platforms to build with. Court case won, they simply refused to move, and government will do nothing ahead of elections to lose votes of the people.Minister of hats was too busy chasing people sunbathing 10m apart on the Clifton beaches to care, even when there was mass looting, he took 3 days to actually find the right fedora to wear, before showing his face.