Yamaha CL feeder dimensions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pisoiu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:16:46 pm
content: I may need to build a feeder bank, so for some preliminary calculations, can anyone help me with approximate numbers? I do not have a feeder available and I could not find any drawing with dimensions.A (distance between 2 nearby 8mm feeders)B (feeder plate width)C (feeder plate thickness)D (feeder height)Thanks.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 11:08:02 pm
content: On my recently acquired small smt machine the feeder plate overall dimensions are17mm thick , 113mm wide however the two edges are recessed down to 16mm thickness and the width of the recess is 12 mm.I have not unpacked the 8mm feeders yet; when i do and if the information is still pending... etc etc etc.EDIT: on 8 mm feeder dimension A is 15mm and dimension D is 65mmNOTE use with caution... all care no responsibility

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 06:01:55 am
content: Why bother to build?It might cost You less to purchase what You need... the feeder plate with pneumatic bits, the electronics driver board and the feeders.And while You are at it... get the rest of the machine as well. Cheaper as a complete assembly.

author: pisoiu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 07:55:32 am
content: Thank you so much. I was beginning to think no one uses CL feeders. Just joking.I need informative dimensions only, if I will need to build it, I will purchase some feeders for the final design.I tried to search for prices and I found only one supplier on aliexpress, he asks for a 40 feeder plate and valve bank around $900. And it is used. Shipping is extra, and the thing is not small nor easy. I can make it on mill and one valve is under 5$ IIRC.I went through the 'purchase everything' way but the costs jumps more than I want but most importantly, it does not satisfy all my requirements. So, in the end, I will probably build one. It is also fun, for me, building is better than buying. Many parts will be purchased, but some will be constructed here.

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 01:24:23 am
content: This thread is a bit stale by now, but it's close enough to the questions I have that I'll add on to it instead of starting a new thread. But first, before the questions, maybe some answers!I just got an 8mm x 2mm pitch CL feeder clone from YX through eBay, so that I can fiddle with it and learn about it. I'm thinking of buying or making a pick and place machine eventually. If I make one, maybe I'd like to use commonly available feeders instead of re-inventing that particular wheel?Here are some general images of the feeder.More to follow in later replies.

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 01:38:13 am
content: Here are both sides of the feeder, with the latch shown open and closed.The cast pads "R" look like they define the horizontal reference plane of the feeder, resting directly on top of the feeder mounting plate. Pins "P" are 6mm diameter, and spaced 80mm apart.Latch "L" appears to clamp against the bottom of the mounting plate just below the adjacent reference pad "R". It appears that the mounting plate should be about 15mm thick. I measure just over 15mm between the latch and the reference pad. Is the latch adjustable on these? Is there normally anything compliant on the bottom surface of the mounting plate to let the feeders grab tightly despite manufacturing variations? Are the CL clones generally kind of wobbly? Do real Yamaha feeders clamp on more tightly?Cam "C" has a bevel on one side, and it looks like it is meant to interface with something on the machine. Maybe it helps keep the feeder from wobbling from side to side in the original Yamaha machines? I don't see anything for it to interact with in photos of low-end machines that use CL feeder clones. Can anybody who has seen a real Yamaha machine up close shed some light on this?

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 01:41:50 am
content: Here is a close up of the feed position, with a the next component to be fed held in place by the metal blade above it. That blade retracts to expose the component when air pressure is applied. When air pressure is released, springs return the metal blade, advance the tape, and pull back on the cover film.Also, here is a close up of the rear pin showing the air hole. Does anybody know the usual operating pressure range of these feeders?

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 01:44:53 am
content: I would sure like to find any authoritative documentation about the CL series feeders such as the picking position's location with respect to the mounting plate and pin centers. I don't suppose any of that information is out in the wild? Or are DIY machine makers who wish to use available feeders just stuck with reverse engineering and guessing?

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 02:12:52 am
content: I figured out how to adjust the latch. After loosening set screw "S", turn eccentric shaft "E" to adjust the latch.

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 05:43:57 am
content: Quote from: NF6X on February 08, 2023, 01:41:50 amHave I made the correct assumption here, or is the component supposed to be fed from the pocket which has just passed the metal blade, with the air pressure removed? In other words, when the pressure is off, should there be a component fully exposed for feeding?

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 08:04:09 am
content: Quote from: NF6X on February 08, 2023, 05:43:57 amNo, your initial assumption was correct. When air is off the component is at least 50% covered by the sliding metal cover piece.To answer your earlier question, they are designed to operate on around 100PSI. If it drops much they start acting screwy.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 04:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: NF6X on February 08, 2023, 01:44:53 amWell, it really doesn't matter if you are building your own machine. What DOES matter is they are all set the same. My old Philips/Yamaha CSM84 ran fine with 0805 parts, but when I tried doing 0603, I had a lot of pickup errors. The prior owner gave me a stand that held one feeder. I added two posts such that a "bridge" could be fitted over the feeder once placed on the stand. It had a hole with a clear plastic crosshair that was just a couple mm above the top of the feeder. I would adjust all the settings on the feeder so that the component was centered under the crosshair. Using this, I standardized all my feeders. This fixed the issue with 0603 pickups. That way, I didn't have to teach all the feeder locations. Before I did this, the pockets were all over the place.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 04:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on February 08, 2023, 08:04:09 amYes, the cover blade keeps parts from tumbling out of the pockets when the tape advances, or when feeders are taken off/put on the rail. The air is turned on before pickup, and then when the air is turned off, the tape is advanced.Jon

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 05:20:23 pm
content: I found a video on YouTube showing how to make calibration adjustments on a CL clone feeder like mine. In that video, the issue that was being solved was that the sprocket wheel would turn backwards a tiny bit when the pneumatic cylinder was actuated. One of the pawls needed to be adjusted. I see that my feeder does the same thing. Perhaps the clone feeders are supplied without being carefully calibrated, and it is assumed that the buyer will dial them in?I didn't know what was adjustable and how to adjust it until I started digging. Bread crumbs such as Unexpected Maker mentioning turning an eccentric to adjust the latches on his dodgy Charmhigh feeders gave me my first hints to start looking for information about adjusting these feeders. The buried set screws were not obvious to me at first.

author: girts
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 09:53:55 pm
content: by the way -https://www.ebay.de/itm/155011392990seems that somebody sells some related stuff...

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 10:07:51 pm
content: I saw that listing (or at least a similar one) for the CL calibration jig. Very interesting! I've been thinking about how I might make one for myself.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 05:19:35 am
content: I feel like that's too expensive, just use a vise + microscope (that's what I'm using here)Currently I'm squeezing feeders into the vise for testing and our application is taking care about the offset compensation :-) each feeder carries a unique ID here (this is the first lot of my DIY feeders, the second one will be better since I know about my capabilities and restrictions now)I painted one sprocket pin black and use that one as index.(the table is quite occupied, but it should give some idea)Of course in case air pressure is used an adapter will be neededhowever I think I'll also machine a small fixture for it in the near future.

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 05:37:53 am
content: I suppose that since I would not be doing full time production work and I'm space-constrained and cash-constrained, I might as well perform any feeder pick position calibration right on the machine using the down looking camera. I could machine a calibration gauge that fits in place of a feeder to initially calibrate the down looking camera to the correct position if I wanted to be fancy. But as has been mentioned, if I just have one machine then I just have to adjust all of my feeders to match each other, even if they are a bit off from the proper calibration. If I was running an assembly house then I'd probably need to care about calibrating all of the feeders against a reference standard for interchangeability between the machines, and I'd probably want a separate calibration fixture to do it without tying up an expensive pick and place machine. If I made a dedicated calibration fixture then it would be for entertainment purposes more than real need.I think it will be handy to have some sort of mounting block to clamp a feeder into for working on it on the workbench. I was thinking that it might be nice to put the mounting block on one of my Manfrotto arms to hold the feeder up above bench level at whatever angle is convenient.

author: girts
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 06:11:31 pm
content: Quote from: NF6X on February 09, 2023, 05:37:53 amBeauty of calibrated feeders - you can place them at any position you wish.If calibrated on machine you must place it ALWAYS at same position what makes quick feeder change impossible.

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 06:36:01 pm
content: I meant that I would mechanically calibrate each feeder in the same slot on the machine, so that they all present the part at the same location with respect to the tooling pins on the bottom of the feeder. Then they should all work in any slot on that machine.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 11:44:26 am
content: Quote from: NF6X on February 08, 2023, 05:20:23 pmDo you have a link to the video you mention?In my rather limited spare time I am slowly getting Seon's old Charmhigh going again, and had limited success with the used feeders I got from him.I bought a bunch of new clone CL feeders on AliExpress last year, but thanks to having Covid over the Xmas/Jan period I haven't had time to try another job with them.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 11:47:38 am
content: Quote from: girts on February 09, 2023, 06:11:31 pmSurely you would calibrate each feeder slot in the software to compensate... even my feederless Neoden TM240A has this adjustment.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 03:44:51 pm
content: On my Philips/Yamaha CSM84, after adjusting the feeders on my home-made calibration jig, I almost NEVER had to teach the pickup location, even for 0603 parts.On my Quad/Samsung QSA30A, I generally DO teach all pickup locations because the feeders seem to have a LOT of variation in where they stop advancing the tape. This can be calibrated in the feeder using programming buttons on the feeder, but that is more tedious, especially because when the camera is over the feeder it blocks getting your hand in to the buttons. Programming the pickup location of all the feeders is actually quick and easy in the software.Jon

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2023, 05:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on February 11, 2023, 11:44:26 am

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 12:05:49 am
content: The soldermask is a Japanese productTAIYO PSR-4100 uv curable liquid photo imageable soldermaskNote the energy density required to expose the material.From that point consider laser source power to calculate the speed of movement of the dot to achieve specified energy requirement.The material can be applied with a rubber roller however the results are abominable ( see green soldermask)Preferred method is to apply it through a silk screen and then allow some time for the liquid to blend to a uniform thickness.The rest of instructions as per manufacturers data sheet.The black soldermask was applied through the silk screen as was the white component overlay.Enjoy.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 02:33:17 am
content: Quote from: Kean on February 11, 2023, 11:47:38 amYes, that's how it works on the base level Chinese machines. On mid to high end machines the pickup positions are managed automatically by the machine to make programming way faster.