EEVBlog 375 Sony Video 8 Camcorder Teardown - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 07:36:31 pm
content: Dave doing the dirty on a old Sony camcorder. 1985 model.Video problems most likely the (in)famous Sony Cap problems, this unit is old enough to be in at the first batch of problem caps. The SM parts on the boards are glued down as the boards were wave soldered......Delay line is there as part of the PAL colour system, where you need a reference of the last line chroma to do the addition and inversion that made PAL a superior system with regards to colour shift ( NTSC -Never Twice Same Color, though it really stood for National Television Standards Committee) on video. Initially meant for signal fade during broadcast, but it was robust enough to work well with the phase shifts on video recorders, where speed changes would result in small colour level changes rather than colour shifts.Nice camera, i have broken many of them apart, as the parts are obscenely expensive, even by Sony standards. They were obsoleted very fast as well.Hi8 though was a good tape system, capable later on of really good resolution, approaching broadcast quality. It used fine chrome oxides and later metal evaporated tapes and higher power write, which probably goes part way to explaining the poor video, as it is not compatible with this early version, as the subcarriers used to record the colour signals were moved up to get the improved video bandwidth needed. probably the sound would still work, though you would have lost the stereo available later.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 07:42:47 pm
content: I love how he is talking about being a tight-@ss with that big mantis microscope in the background.Bare minimum... Suuuuuuuure

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 08:08:28 pm
content: Dave is a tightwad, he is an old FleaBay hounddog. Never pays retail for test equipment unless it comes as a buy one get one free special with a Fluke thrown in as a bonus. A lot is loaned or for review as well.Would love to get the castoffs from that lab......FE is another FleaBay buyer, he gets great bargains.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 09:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 23, 2012, 08:08:28 pmRetail?New?I don't understand these words...I'd never buy a new mantis with my own money!Dave.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 10:13:22 pm
content: Bad ’80s flashback! Man, I hated working on those things!First real electronics job was working in a TV/VCR shop right about the time this thing was in it’s prime. I think camcorders were the first consumer product to really adopt SMD components. Of course, that thing looks positively spacious inside compared to an iPhone or whatever..The opto thingy sticking up into the middle of the cassette is a dual infrared LED, which emits out to both sides. There are sensors on either side of the cassette housing, which are used to detect the transparent leader tape at the ends of the cassette, so the unit knows to shut off the motor and go into stop or rewind mode. Some of the sensors would get fooled into operation by ambient light when you had everything open on the bench, causing you to have to shade things with a hand or a empty tape box while testing.A delay line is standard stuff here in former-NTSC-land. Used to delay the luminance component of the signal so it arrives at the output at the same time as the chroma signals, which must travel through more circuitry. In a PAL system, the delay period corresponds to exactly1 horizontal scan line (64 microseconds), to allow the decoder to invert the signal phase at the end of each line , hence Phase Alternation by Line, or PAL.If you carefully open the delay line, you can see it is a piezoelectric device, propagating the signal through a quartz wafer.

author: kolbep
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 11:04:08 pm
content: The other day (ok, about 2 years ago), I bought a JVC GR-C1 camera for about R250.00 including postage (about 30 AUD). I bought it on a Local Auction Site (bidorbuy.co.za)It included the Case, Charger, Powersupply, Camera, Battery, and 3 VHS-C Casettes, which made it very heavy, so scored on the postage.The thing still works well (even the NICAD Battery still holds a Charge).Dave will love this - It is the same type of camera Marty used to video Doc in the Parking Lot (BTTF 1http://www.totalrewind.org/cameras/C_GRC1.htm), so now you know how old the camera is.P

author: cloudscapes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2012, 11:29:30 pm
content: I can't help but think that the autofocus system is similar to that used in rangefinder cameras. A system that uses paralax and lining up two ghosted images optically as you manually focus.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 03:20:55 am
content: I only used a big camera like this (the one I used recorded to full size VHS tapes) a couple of times and I really liked it. The heavy camera makes the image much more stable than the very light modern cameras. Also, after recording I could just store the VHS tape instead of first transferring the video to a computer (either fussing with compression or using a lot of space) and then recording it to LTO tape or other media (and hoping it lasts as long as the old VHS tape or just recording it to VHS so that I know it will last decades)

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 12:44:20 pm
content: Inspired by Dave, I just busted apart a 1992-vintage follow-on to the camera in this video, a CCD-TR61. Paid about US$3 or so in a thrift store. Essentially the same camera in a lot of ways, except condensed down to perhaps 1/4 the size. The level of integration is astonishingly tighter, given only a six-year gap in production. A few pics below.Now, what can one do with such a tiny little CRT....

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 03:27:33 pm
content: I understood that NTSC was Not terribly satisfactory color.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 04:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on October 24, 2012, 03:27:33 pmThis is how the standards were defined where I worked:NTSC - Never Twice the Same ColourSECAM - System Essentially Contrary to the American MethodPAL - Peace At Last

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 05:41:11 pm
content: This attempt at political analysis of the various color standards is kind of amusing, as well...http://punya.educ.msu.edu/amusings/politics.htmQuote

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 06:03:28 pm
content: On most Tv sets I find the following - Brightness, colour, contrast all set to max. I then adjust them to sane levels, and turn off the blowtorch shop display mode. After 10 minutes the people no longer have a headache from looking at the screen, and it does not light up the street outside through the curtains.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 06:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 24, 2012, 06:03:28 pmUntil you come back a week later and find all the controls at max again, then you give up

author: MartinX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 08:18:12 pm
content: Quote from: N2IXK on October 24, 2012, 05:41:11 pmVery strange, there is no limit to the consumers colour control built in to the PAL or SECAM systems it is up to the TV manufacturer to provide all the colour control he wants to the TV so the end user can tweak the colours all they want.The only political aspect of TV systems I know of is that many eastern block countries chose the French SECAM system to make it more difficult receive the neighbouring western European broadcasts using PAL.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2012, 10:49:47 pm
content: The only thing choosing SECAM receivers would do however is receive monochrome PAL only, which is still good for propaganda. Unless it attempted to decode the colour, in which case you'd get a flickering mess of colour but still usable luminosity. (You could turn the colour intensity control down... oh, wait, you don't have it)As someone who has designed the occasional video processor: Please, SECAM, die. You make everything so much more complicated. PAL and NTSC both QAM encode their colour, but no, SECAM has to use FM. Usually, I do not worry about adding SECAM support, as very few cameras and devices output it - but it does worry me that my system might not work with it if I produce something.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2012, 01:10:22 am
content: Quote from: deephaven on October 24, 2012, 04:40:50 pmAnd ATSC - Always Twice the Same Color...Really, ATSC is great except they decided to use the oddball 8-VSB modulation that is both more expensive to demodulate and less reliable than OFDM. Also, they kept the crazy 59.94Hz framerate, which complicates the design of PLLs in video circuits and even worse, they backported it to Blu-ray for no good reason.What I really hate about old video standards is interlacing, since it degrades image quality on modern displays. (I understand that it was a necessary evil back in the days.) For compatibility with old equipment, they should have just used interlaced half frames as a way to send progressive frames (standardizing the even/odd order), so deinterlacing would just be a matter of buffering.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2012, 04:48:41 am
content: Then you got the VCR, which included autoswitching between SECAM and PAL as standard. NTSC needed a switch hidden in the front panel.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2012, 08:51:14 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 25, 2012, 01:10:22 amProperly deinterlaced (or viewed on a CRT SDTV) video is much smoother than progressive video at half the frame rate, but is a bit lower resolution. It is almost as good as progressive video at the same frame rate (50/60fps). My DV camera has a setting between 25fps progressive and 50Hz interlaced - on a SDTV (or a PC with good deinterlacing software) the interlaced video looks much better. I like the higher frame rate - it's good that the HD standard allows 50/60 fps progressive video - if only movies could be produced with that frame rate (at least those that are no longer produced on actual film).

author: Winston
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2012, 04:02:12 pm
content: Dave, what part of the camera did the roach come from? I wonder if it might have been interfering in some way with the tape mechanism and once removed, the tape transport worked.You've possibly mentioned this before, but what video camera are you using for your videos and what software are you using for video editing. They look to be doing a really excellent job.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2012, 01:06:06 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on October 25, 2012, 08:51:14 amHow does it compare to recording at 25/30FPS progressive and motion adaptive interpolating to 50/60FPS progressive?

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2012, 05:53:00 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 26, 2012, 01:06:06 amI do not know as I do not have a video processor that can do this.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2012, 06:19:07 am
content: Quote from: Winston on October 25, 2012, 04:02:12 pmDidn't notice, it just fell out!QuoteCanon HF G10 with Opteka x10 macro lens for the close shots.Sony Vegas MovieStudio Platinum 12, not that that really matters, a video editor is a video editor (unless you render incorrectly).Dave.

author: Winston
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2012, 02:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 26, 2012, 06:19:07 amNo wonder the videos look so great. That's nice gear.QuoteI asked because I knew that if you'd ever had problems with it, you would have certainly mentioned it. ;-) According to my reading of reviews on Amazon.com, too many editors appear to have PC hardware related issues.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2012, 01:36:08 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on October 26, 2012, 05:53:00 amIf you have a PC, you have a video processor that can do it and much more.http://superuser.com/questions/224095/looking-for-temporal-upsampling-motion-interpolation-software

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2012, 06:24:57 am
content: Quote from: Winston on October 26, 2012, 02:34:02 pmThe lens cost a whopping $30 or something :->But yeah, the $1600 Canon is really good. Almost too good as I have mentioned in a video, to the point that it's depth of field and auto focus speed are a hindrance in this application.QuoteI asked because I knew that if you'd ever had problems with it, you would have certainly mentioned it. ;-) According to my reading of reviews on Amazon.com, too many editors appear to have PC hardware related issues.Sony Vegas is the "lesser of the evils".I used to use Ulead/Corel VideoStudio for a few hundred early videos. I have also used NCH VideoPad (Australian!), and a few others here and there.They all have various advantages and disadvantages.e.g.VideoPad is glitchy with my Canon filesVideoStudio is slow with my new HD files and has render issues.Vegas sucks arse on basic stuff like titling, pan/zoom, and transitions (all are fiddly) but you get used to it. It also sucks on rendering in not offering a constant quality variable bitrate, so I have output in a high fixed bitrate and then do a 2nd encode with another program (handbrake).I settled on Vegas because it offers the best speed in editing playback and usability and doesn't seem to have any glitches.NCH Video is the best for the type of work I need to do. i.e. not spend a month editing a hollywood feature, just throw together clips and render. But I can't stand the glitches in theo utput video, that is unacceptable. I do not have the time to watch the entire output video to make sure it's 100% correct.Dave.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2012, 03:38:32 am
content: Hi Dave.Can you please tell me what kind of car monitor that is (21:20)? I could really use a small cheap display with composite video like that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2012, 11:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on November 04, 2012, 03:38:32 amCar rearvision mirror reversing display, <$30 on ebay.Dave.

author: TripleFault
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2013, 06:31:36 pm
content: Dave!Could you be so kind as to post a link to the Circuit Diagram you obtained.Was it free or did you have to pay for it.I am hacking some viewfinder CRTs and would like to see how they are wired up.Thankyou