Is the signal generator on the Rigol scopes worth buying? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 05:59:16 pm
content: New here, buying my first 'real' scope. What's it worth to have an integrated signal generator in your scope? Is this even desirable? It seems like it would complicate the usability of the device. The Siglent SDG1025 can be had for about $350.The price difference between the DS/MSO2072A and DS/MSO2072A-S is $350.The price difference between the DS1074Z and DS1074Z-S is $200.The price difference between the MSO1074Z and MSO104Z-S is $233.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 06:07:26 pm
content: Built in is handy for academic places since it becomes an all in one tool. In the case of the Agilent scopes the built in generator can be a teaching tool (built in patterns and 'lessons').Built in can be handy if you have space issues on your bench.My scope has a built in generator, I rarely use it since I have a nice Agilent 33250A (much better specs etc).So, you will to be the one to answer your question since only you know your specific needs.cheers,george.

author: soren
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 06:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 18, 2015, 05:59:16 pmThe DS1074Z is a pointless product. A more useful comparison is between the DS1054Z and DS1074Z-S, where the price difference is $350.

author: smgvbest
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 06:59:21 pm
content: Quote from: soren on September 18, 2015, 06:40:59 pmWhy is the DS1074Z pointless? comparing a DS1054Z to a DS1074Z-S is not an apples to apples comparison as the price also includes the 100Mhz upgrade.the OP is comparing like scopes which seems far from pointless.I understand you can hack the DS1054Z to a DS1074Z but that doesn't make the comparison pointlessFor the OPI have a MSO1074Z-S and find it useful for times when I need a quick signal source. it's not as easy to use as a dedicated product but it's also not horrible to me personally. My other Sig Gen is a Hantek and it's not without its faults for sure.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 07:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: smgvbest on July 28, 1974, 04:17:56 pmBecause you'd never buy one in practice.A DS1054Z isexactlythe same internals and can be bandwidth-upgraded for far less than the price of a DS1074Z (just enter a secret code on the front panel!)To answer the original question: It really depends on bench space. If you've got the space then a separate unit is almost always a better option. An all-in-one device is only better if you plan to never, ever upgrade a component.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:03:36 pm
content: I think a seperate signal generator is better. I often want to look at a signal while changing frequency and/or amplitude. On a scope with signal generator I'd need to go back and forth between the signal generator and oscilloscope settings. I think I'm not the only one with such a usage scenario.

author: marber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 18, 2015, 08:03:36 pmYes, but on the DS1074Z-S that's not a problem as the signal generator settings are entirely in the side bar menu, which doesn't overlap the signal at all. I wouldn't say it's a great interface, but at least that's not an issue and you can change the signal while verifying the waveform just fine.When I bought mine I thought the extra $200 was reasonable for a basic siggen, especially since I don't have a ton of desk space. But afterwards the DS1054Z came out, and I'm not sure I'd still opt for it now.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:38:21 pm
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 18, 2015, 05:59:16 pmOf course a dedicated AWG like the SDG1025 will be better, 2 channels and more functionalityIFyou need it.But IMHO the inbuilt units are perfectly OK for basic use and other than drive capability far better than an old Sig gen.You'd want to check Max P-P specs to ensure you'd get what you require.I prefer a front panel AWG BNC but as instruments become more compact, front panel real-estate is very tight and manufacturers are starting to place the BNC's on the rear.What's the point of providing an inbuilt AWG and placing connectors at the rear?/RantMy SDS2304 can store 4 Arbitrary waveforms that are first created on PC and sent to the DSO AWG, usability of suppliers PC software will have an impact on how easy this might be.General operation is little different than actually using a DSO, all AWG functionality is in a single main menu with additional settings in sub menus ....at least this is how it is in Siglents.

author: marber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 18, 2015, 08:38:21 pmThe Rigol -S DSOs/MSOs have two siggen channels as well, BTW.I believe the signal generator daughter boards in the DS1000Z-S series and the DS2000-S series are exactly the same hardware, but the price difference is not.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 09:33:13 pm
content: For field work I have the MSO1074Z-S because it has everything I need in a convenient portable package.Fiddling through the menus is a bit irritating, but as a signal generator it works well enough. Trying to set up the Arb is a PITA from the UI, but that's a compromise I was prepared to make as it's not often I need to use it. Also the connectors are on the back, another compromise.But if you want an all in one scope with those specs at that price point, it can't be beat.I bought a DS1074Z-S for my nephew who's into guitar pedals. Sure, I could've bought him separate function gen and scope, but he lacks bench space.I guess it also depends how often you actually use a function generator/AWG: I admit to being an occasional user, I use a scope every day but I only ned an AWG maybe once a week on average, although use is sporadic and intense when I do.At the end of the day it's a compromise from an accessibilty perspective, but from the point of view of functionality, performance and efficient use of bench space it's a compelling offering.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 10:03:22 pm
content: No. Low voltage range, poor controls using the unindented general purpose knob, no decimal shift for the adjuster. Not worth it (with current firmware).But, as a side feature it is nice to have. I can also imagine it beging helpful in testing/calibration setups at a small production line.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 10:06:32 pm
content: Is the generator low side tied to chassis ground? That can be a problem in some situations.

author: smgvbest
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 11:22:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 18, 2015, 07:37:30 pmBut you can not purchase a DS1054Z-S they don't exist so its not an option so it's not an comparison.Yes you can hack a DS1054Z to a DS1104Z but you can not make it a DS1074Z-S so again the caparison it irrelevant.you can only hack a DS1074Z-S to get 100Mhz and other featuresSo as the OP posted his comparison is accurate

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 11:26:50 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on September 18, 2015, 10:06:32 pmGenerally yes, most but not all Sig gens and AWG's are this way.When Isolated channels are fitted it is normally documented as a feature of model/range.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 11:50:01 pm
content: Quote from: smgvbest on September 18, 2015, 11:22:25 pmAll technically true, but completely irrelevant.The original assertion was: "The price difference between the DS1074Z and DS1074Z-S is $200."The point being made was that you wouldn't ever buy a DS1074Z. You'd buy DS1054Z instead - it's cheaper!The assertion therefore becomes: "The price difference between the DS1054Z and DS1074Z-S is $400"This means that yes, you can buy a DS1054Z+Siglent SDG1025 for about the same money as a DS1074Z-S.So ... which is a better choice? I say it comes down to available desk space more than anything else.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 12:56:12 am
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 18, 2015, 05:59:16 pmYou get what you pay for as these products are sold into a quite competitive market. The functionality differences between the rigol vs the agilent/keysight are huge (I've used both), and then compared to a separate instrument the different again is huge. Whether a particular example will meet your needs is something only you can answer.

author: smgvbest
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 01:26:51 am
content: [quote author=Fungus link=topic=55369.msg758273#msg758273 date=1442620201All technically true, but completely irrelevant.The original assertion was: "The price difference between the DS1074Z and DS1074Z-S is $200."The point being made was that you wouldn't ever buy a DS1074Z. You'd buy DS1054Z instead - it's cheaper!The assertion therefore becomes: "The price difference between the DS1054Z and DS1074Z-S is $400"This means that yes, you can buy a DS1054Z+Siglent SDG1025 for about the same money as a DS1074Z-S.So ... which is a better choice? I say it comes down to available desk space more than anything else.Totally disagree with your logic, the OP did not ask about a scope that did not have SigGen ability.The OP specifically name compatible scopes from Rigol with SigGen ability and asked if they are worth it.Your assertion is not what was asked is all I am saying. is what you're saying true, yes, when asking what combination is the possible best deal.But when the question is "Is the signal generator on the Rigol scopes worth buying?" your point of the DS1074Z being irrelevant is itself irrelevant Instead simply state that a DS1054Z+Siglent SDG1025 is a better valuein your opinion, don't state it as fact by saying the DS1074Z is pointless. It's not pointless to the OP as they posed the question. That's all I am saying.I find the SigGen in my MSO1074Z-S worth having. for what it does it works fine. it's convenient. I think if you can afford a separate SigGen by all means get one.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 01:36:22 am
content: I bought the Rigol DS2072A-S because I didn't have the bench space for a separate function generator. I have regretted it since I got it (the builtin generator, not the scope). I really wish I had put the extra $350 towards a proper standalone AWG and figured out a way to make it fit on my bench. While the builtin isn't terrible its still pretty clumsy trying to set through an interface that was designed for scope use first and foremost.Howardlong's situation seems to be the only use case where it really make sense to get the all-in-one.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 02:59:30 am
content: In the datasheet for the Rigol 2000A it says the signal generator can only do up to 1 MHz sine wave. Is this true or is it a typo?http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0505/1/-/-/-/-/MSO2000A_Datasheet.pdf

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 03:11:54 am
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 19, 2015, 02:59:30 amSurely a misprint you would think.Siglent inbuilt AWG's in SDS2000 and the new SDS1000X-S series both max at 25 MHz Sine wave.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 03:38:27 am
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 19, 2015, 02:59:30 amIt must be a misprint. The copy of the specs I downloaded when I bought the scope shows below. And the specs document I grabbed is actually just chapter 18 from the user guide, which checking the whole user guide shows the same thing.Sine Wave 100mHz - 25MHzSquare Wave 100mHz - 15MHzPulse 1mHz - 1MHzRamp 100mHz - 100KHzBuiltin Functions 100mHz - 1MHzArbitrary 100mHz - 10MHz

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 03:54:12 am
content: Quote from: CustomEngineerer on September 19, 2015, 03:38:27 amWent ahead and verified that it is a 25MHz sine wave on my DS2072A-S.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 08:54:56 am
content: Quote from: smgvbest on September 19, 2015, 01:26:51 amNobody said it isn't.What's being said is that a DSO1074Z plus separate signal generator doesn't make much sense. Reason: The DSO1074Z doesn't make much sense.(At least: Not if you're buying one with your own money...)

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 10:10:49 am
content: Is there any YouTube video out there that shows the usage of the built-in signal generator in the DS-1000Z-S series?I would like to have a better view on the menu options and how user-friendly or how not user-friendly it is.Haven't seen any screenshot or any video showing the signal generator functionality in the scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 01:16:46 pm
content: If you can hack-it so it is free I see no reason not to get it but I think a Feeltech FY3200S generator is a much better buy for the money.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 01:54:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 19, 2015, 08:54:56 amI didn't get that remark. Can you elaborate further why the DSO1074Z doesn't make much sense?

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 07:27:22 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on January 12, 2016, 01:54:12 pmThis entire dialog is funny. All Fungus is saying is that MOST home users DO NOT buy a DS1074Z but OPT for a DS1054Z (and then hack it to the full 100MHz DS1104Z).Here is the decision tree:the OP is trying to compare the DSXXXXZ and DSXXXXZ-S models. So which ones will he buy?1. Probably none of the 100MHz models since one can hack the lower cost ones to full 100MHz spec.2. For the -S version, the lowest cost one is the DS1074Z-S. So that will be his best option for a siggen version (and he will probably hack-upgrade it).3. For the plain Z version, he will opt for the DS1054Z (like many of us did), which he will hack to the 100MHz one as well.So the real reason that any comparison to the DS1074Z doesn't make sense is that the OP would probably never buy it - but would buy the DS1054Z instead (like all of us did).So his real market (buying) options are either a DS1054Z or a DS1074Z-S. And the OP should weigh the cost/benefits at that price span.Not rocket science....

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 09:44:16 pm
content: Okey. Now I get it.. The delta between these 2 models is too big, not to justify buying an external signal generator. Good point! Why haven't I looked at it like that before

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 11:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on January 12, 2016, 09:44:16 pmIf you look at it in terms of cost and ease of use alone (and to a much lesser extent features), then without doubt having a separate scope and AWG os the way to go.On the other hand, if you're lacking bench space or need something reasonably decent and compact for field use, either of those reasons can make a compelling case. I travel with mine (an MSO1074Z-S) about once a month, and sit in hotel rooms debugging. Another viable alternative in the travel scenario is the Analog Discovery (1 or 2), but for my purposes the analogue and digital bandwidth of that device often isn't really enough. The Rigol case for the DS1000Z is excellent by the way, it protects the scope very well, much better than equivalent offerings from Tek and Keysight that cost three or four times as much.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 11:30:33 pm
content: I'd also recommend buying separate items. That said I ended up with a DS1074Z-S as I was able to buy a used/like new one for $70.00 USD more then I sold my DS1054Z for. At that price it was a no brainer and I have found it to be useful. I do wish it had an external reference input.