BK Precision 2712 vs Aneng AN8008 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 12:47:46 am
content: Hi,I was looking at getting a new (better) meter recently and came across a BK Precision 2712.My common sense is telling me that it has to be better than the Aneng AN8008 I have now, but when looking at the datasheets, the Aneng has 1% on all DC current ranges while the 2712 has 0.5% on the mA range and 2% on the A range, so is the 2712 really more accurate?I know that I probably will be getting more safety with the 2712 along with more confidence in the measurement, with BK being a reputable brand, but what other things am I missing here?Thanks for reading.Update: I've had the BM786 EEVblog edition for under a year now and it looks like either the firmware bugged out or the micro died, because it's not turning on. Gonna have to return it I quess.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 12:53:04 am
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 01, 2022, 12:47:46 amThe Brymen website?https://brymen.eu/product-category/multimeters/

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 01:16:54 am
content: yes Brymen, Amprobe, Mastech, Greenlee, CEM, Tenma even some Uni-T etc ....Many 40k counts meters nowadays have cheap prices and in some cases have more functionalitiesSome Beckman equipement (s) are rebadged brands

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 01:19:45 am
content: Are the Brymens really that good? I wasn't aware they had sub-0.1% DCV precision for under 150€.As a sidenote, this better meter that I'm getting would be mostly a reference meter to calibrate my other tools like PSUs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 01:32:44 am
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 01, 2022, 01:19:45 amYes.Quote from: Mat219 on September 01, 2022, 01:19:45 amHere's one that's 0.08% for 149€:https://brymen.eu/shop/bm829s/On the other hand you can get 0.03% accuracy for only 9€ more:https://brymen.eu/shop/bm857s/I own a BM857 and I'm very happy with it. I like the square shape and AFAICT it easily beats that 0.03% spec, it's probably sub-0.01% in practice.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 01:41:28 am
content: Another vote for Brymen here. I have a BM857 and a simpler BM251 and they are both incredibly accurate.Mechanically they are a notch below Fluke (and perhaps Gossen), but good enough to last you quite some time. Another drawback is the absence of warranty in countries that have no official distribution, but you can always purchase a local rebrand. For example: in the US, selected models are sold as Greenlee.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 02:35:05 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 01, 2022, 01:41:28 amJoe hasn't managed to break one yet.(unlike the fancy $700 Keysight which iscurrently being killed)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 03:25:42 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2022, 02:35:05 amIt's dead Jim, did you not know ?

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 04:13:59 am
content: I'll keep harping on this because I don't think it gets enough visibility, but especially for these lower-end handheld DMMs, the published accuracy specifications are basically meaningless. I can have two different manufacturer's DMMs with nearly identical specs, yet one is literally 10 times more accurate in real life. Even years later.So if accuracy is your primary focus, be aware of that and check reviews or maybe go with a bench meter. If it isn't, then I would go for reasonable quality and needed functions.Can you clarify more about what aspects of the DMM are important to you and what this will be used for?

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 04:34:29 am
content: I have two AN8009 - they are dead accurate for the sample resistance and voltage measurement comparisons I have made over the last few years since I've had them. I had just done a 19.999k resistance comparison with some other meters, and the 8009's are both still spot on, and I have one on 2.000mVdc at the moment and it is bang on. So for accuracy of basic measurements (perhaps not FS current) they are good.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 06:01:21 am
content: Also, the BK Precision 2712 is 40,000 count, the Anengs are 9,999 count. Many of the recommended Brymens will be 50,000 or 60,000 count.

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 10:40:05 am
content: As stated above in an edited post, The DMM would be used for calibration/verification of the cheaper equipment I have, because right now, I own a Tenma 72-10495 and two AN8008s.As for the requirements:I have a budget of 3500CZK or around 150€It has to be available in my country, which means Farnell is a safe bet, although I might be able to find different distributors as well with some digging.I need it to be as accurate as I can get, preferably under 0.5% on all rangesIt needs to have small long term drift, as I don't have a reference to calibrate againstAuto-ranging with manual override that's pretty fastLatching continuity functioncapacitance measurement function is nice, but not essentialI don't need a temp measurement function, but it wouldn't hurt to have itI'd like it to have good input jacks, because I've had to toss a few multimeters because of faulty jacks, and I'd like to avoid that.It has to be reasonably safe, I don't know what that requires aside from HRC fuses.Access doors for the fuses and batteries would be real goodI'd like something with over 10000 counts for the increase in accuracyIf possible over 20A max current measurement, the voltage is not that important, but it has to handle mains (230VAC)That's pretty much it. I'm mostly going off of Dave's reccomendations from his multimeter buying guide, and my preferences.Again, I'm not that well versed in buying multimeters, so my requirements might be way to high for the price.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 11:13:27 am
content: Not to be rude, if you do some "serious stuff" pls try to search for a good meter, and maybe invest a little bit more if you need to, "being easily" calibrable will be a key role for you adventureCheck some youtube videos of the models you have interests, some meters wait a bit to display the read value(s), some of them give a "false zero" some show everything near zero ....Brymen on some models can be user calibrated, dont know for the newest lines ... and many other meters are based on the same chipsets ....Got an Amprobe Am140 for a ridicoulous price, on par with the 857 seriesFluke need special softwareBeckman i dont knowand your 20 amps measurements for a meter is not realistic, and can / could be dangerous, many meters are now 10 amps, because it heat a lot in them, use a shunt resistor in place or a clamp meter

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 11:37:23 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on September 01, 2022, 11:13:27 amThe AM140isa Brymen BM857. Brymen do a lot of rebrands. They don't sell the BM857 directly in the USA so if you want one over there you have to get the Amprobe.Quote from: coromonadalix on September 01, 2022, 11:13:27 amYes. At 20A you should be using a clamp meter.(or maybe an external current shunt)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 11:55:33 am
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 01, 2022, 10:40:05 amThat's up to you but you'll definitely get a worse meter if you go down that path.Brymen.eu andwelectronare European and have excellent support.(I got mine from welectron, they work with EEVBLOG and sell Dave's meters)

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 04:23:56 pm
content: The Tenma 72-10495 is 3,000 count on voltage and 5,000 count on current. Generally, easy to keep under control IMHO.It's rare but possible to get a DMM out of spec.So now we talk a DMM that is calibrated.About the cheapest Brymen option might be the 9,999 count BM829s. Welectron is 125 + 58 (Euros) for the DMM + calibration. Not sure about taxes and shipping for you. The PC interface can be picked up later for some added functionality.However, to properly calibrate/adjust the Tenma, I think you will want 50,000 counts. Can you expand your budget a bit?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 05:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2022, 02:35:05 amOf all the Brymens I know, none would have survived the mechanical stress that Dave imposed on the U1282A. Are there Brymens that could survive? Perhaps as I haven't seen the BM7xx series yet on my hands.Robustness, just like quality and durability, are words with a very wide range of interpretations and angles. Don't lose sight of that in the light of Joe's tests which, although are excellent to get specific angles of these adjectives, don't capture their whole gamut.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 05:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 01, 2022, 05:16:36 pmMaybe it's not that difficult. I've thrown DT830s down stone staircases and towed then behind canoes. Dave once took anoscilloscopeon a mud run and it still worked.

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 10:06:11 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on September 01, 2022, 04:23:56 pmHow much? 5000CZK or 200€ is the absolute max I can afford right now, and I don't really want to spend that much.Can I get away without the calibration or calibrate it myself? Maybe building my own voltage reference?

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 10:25:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 01, 2022, 10:06:11 pmEven if you did get a decent reference and had it calibrated, that won't help with any other aspects of the DMM, such as AC voltage, current, mV ranges, resistance, etc. and will have minimal impact on even the DC voltage functions due to limited reference voltages.What do you think about that BM829s + calibration?

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 11:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on September 01, 2022, 04:23:56 pmLooks quite good, just a few questions:How do I request the calibration, and how does it work? Do they actually trim the meter to a standard or do they just tell you the inaccuracies so you know how to compensate for them?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 12:49:10 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2022, 05:33:44 pmThrow any Brymen in the water. It will either be dead as a dodo or will need to be thoroughly cleaned from the inside.Again, Brymens are excellent meters and will be a suitable candidate for the OP given his requirements, but they are neither perfect nor indestructible and do not apply in all conditions. I used to perform maintenance in my pool equipment (damp/wet area) and the U1282A was the one to take due to IP67 and Dave's torture tests. Any other meter I have (including serious Flukes) were a "maybe".

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 12:58:52 am
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 01, 2022, 11:30:52 pmI couldn't find Brymen calibration, but Fluke covers this topic more extensively:https://www.fluke.com/en-us/support/calibration-services

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 01:13:17 am
content: How well do your existing DMMs agree with each other?If they all agree then that's a good start for a reference. Those Anengs are quite accurate for what they are, if they agree with each other and agree with a new Brymen then it's a good start.Calibration is expensive unless you really, really need it.At a hobby level it might be better to spend the money on getting some reference components for sanity checking and comparing it with other meters like your Anengs (IMHO). You can get a high degree of confidence that way and you'll be able to check the meter for many years using them.Quote from: J-R on September 01, 2022, 04:23:56 pmAt welectron you just tick the box on the form when you order themeter.Quote from: Mat219 on September 01, 2022, 11:30:52 pmCalibration is telling you the inaccuracies so you know how to compensate for them.They'll give you a piece of paper with a report of the meter's readings against their reference standards.Some people would claim it's invalidated as soon as the meter gets sent through the postal system.

author: tomud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 01:56:34 am
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 01, 2022, 10:40:05 amWhen it comes to Brymen multimeters, you can easily buy at TME (They ship easily to the Czech Republic and you can pay in CZK):https://www.tme.eu/cz/katalog/digitalni-multimetry_112609/?mapped_params=2:258;When it comes to calibrating yourself, without good equipment it is a bit difficult, but if you do not need a certificate, calibration at the manufacturer's authorized service (in Poland it is not high - around 50 euroshttp://www.biall.com.pl/en/contact.htmlserwis@biall.com.pl you can easily send an inquiry in English.).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 02:41:21 am
content: Quote from: tomud on September 02, 2022, 01:56:34 amInteresting that the BM857s is cheaper than the BM829s on that site.There's also a "BM857s-WB" which is even cheaper. Anybody know what "WB" stands for? ("White Box"?)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 02:47:50 am
content: Whatever meter you get you should budget for some gold-plated leads.Luckily, Brymen leads are cheap:https://brymen.eu/shop/silicone-test-leads-bl21s2-t4sc-brymen/PS: Welectron does a "plus pack" which includes gold leads and a Brymen case for 15 Euros.

author: tomud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 03:01:31 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2022, 02:41:21 amI'm not sure, but there was probably an explanation in some forum thread. Many people from this forum bought Brymen multimeters from TME, once it was one of the few stores where you could buy them in the EU (offices are in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands - you can call and ask about the differences in the WB version)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 03:13:56 am
content: Quote from: tomud on September 02, 2022, 03:01:31 amThis guy says it's "Without Battery".https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/brymen-bm857/msg1041954/#msg1041954I dunno, 18 Euros seems like a big discount for not including a 9V battery.The price is the same as welectron and brymen.eu though, so I guess the other model is the expensive one.TME is an expensive place to buy Brymens - their BM829s is about 199 euros compared to 149 on the brymen.eu site.

author: tomud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 03:25:52 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2022, 03:13:56 amThe shipment of batteries/accumulators to the European Union is subject to various restrictions (hazardous materials), so this is probably the reason for such a big difference.Apparently for this reason, they are currently buying versions without a battery from a manufacturer in Taiwan.Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2022, 03:13:56 amIt depends on the currency you want to pay in (in the Czech Republic it may look better as you don't pay for the conversion but pay in the local currency). It is also worth comparing shipping costs to another country. Of course, I am not saying that it is cheaper, but a person living in the Czech Republic can compare whether it is better to pay in CZK or in Euro).I used to buy the equipment myself in Germany - because there was a lower VAT (19%), after the recent changes, regardless of where I buy in the EU (in online stores), I have to pay 23% VAT anyway, so buying locally it is cheaper (lower shipping costs, etc.). A person buying to the Czech Republic from Germany will also pay more (21% VAT).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 05:02:56 pm
content: Quote from: tomud on September 02, 2022, 03:01:31 amI recall reading somewhere that WB stands for White Backlight - in contrast with the horrid original green backlight and the slightly newer orange backlight also present in other variants.

author: tomud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 07:04:26 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 02, 2022, 05:02:56 pmThe display backlight has been changed in versions marked with the letter "S"

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 07:37:17 pm
content: Based on the budget constraints, I would go ahead with a higher count and/or more accurate DMM, but without at least a calibration (cal + data is better IMHO) it would not be recommended to adjust any other equipment based on it.You could have three DMMs that all agree and disagree with your power supply, but all you "know" is that the three DMMs agree, you don't "know" that they are right. But for some folks, that is enough for them to adjust the power supply due to the odds, so it's your call.

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 09:15:43 pm
content: I still don't really think the calibration is neccessary for my use case: DIY perfboard electronics, arduino projects and the occasional fixup around the house. Not really like I need it for fixing 100 000$ equipment for a company. I just want to be reasonably sure that I'm not accidentally giving my circuits like 6V instead of 5V. So if it's like 0.0005V out, that's completely ok. I know that it's not properly done, but then again, I can send the meter for calibration afterwards when I have the money/need for it.The whole point of me getting a more serious meter is that I don't want to rely on a cheap piece of crap (no offense to Aneng) and I think a higher end multimeter will be more stable and trustworthy even without the calibration. Plus the added safety and features mean that I'll finally have something I don't have to be nervous measuring the mains with.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 09:43:16 pm
content: It makes no sense to lump Korea, Japan, China, etc. together, as they are drastically different situations. Probably best to edit your post.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 09:48:52 pm
content: How about try for the Brymen BM867s or the BM869s?

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 10:07:28 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on September 02, 2022, 09:43:16 pmNoted and edited. I didn't mean all asian companies are bad, far from it. But a lot of chinese products give asian products a bad rep.Quote from: J-R on September 02, 2022, 09:48:52 pmI was thinking about something like BM857 or BM785. Do you have some experience with those?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 10:21:21 pm
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 02, 2022, 10:07:28 pmFTFY.

author: tomud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 11:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 02, 2022, 09:15:43 pmLet me say that, probably most of the people here use multimeters here for hobby purposes. When it comes to Brymen meters in these applications, you will probably never need to calibrate. I also use my Brymen 869S for hobby, I bought it in 2016 and so far there are no problems with it. There is also no need for calibration.If you buy a multimeter of this brand, you will have it for a very long time. They are solidly made, retain parameters and are really hard to damage.When choosing the model you want to buy, consider the features you need. These multimeters also differ in the degree of accuracy, but even those with "inferior" accuracy will suffice for amateur purposes. Personally, I recommend buying such a multimeter, I know it is a considerable expense - but I am happy myself and if I need another multimeter, it will probably also be a Brymen.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 12:17:18 am
content: BM857s is from Brymen's older design style.BM78x is a new product line with 60,000 counts, while the BM857s & BM86x for example are 50,000 count.The BM78x has had some growing pains. I have the BM789 and it has two known bugs, a clicking sound at power on and no shielding over the speaker so the magnet option mutes the speaker. Another bug involves hunting between two ranges, but my specific unit isn't affected.No dual display and no interface option are a couple negatives of the BM78x depending on your point of view I suppose.60,000 count is an advantage. It uses 3xAAA batteries instead of 9V and they are easier to replace.The discussion could go on a bit. With your use-case in your head, check out all the reviews of the DMMs you're contemplating and see if something naturally falls into place.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 02:12:43 am
content: Quote from: J-R on September 03, 2022, 12:17:18 amSo? It's older, it's established, it works.Some people actually prefer the shape. It's also smaller than the huge BM869, et. al.I don't care about having the 100kHz bandwidth or extra AC functions, of a meter like the BM869s. IknowI'll never use them because I own an oscilloscope for that. I'll take a simpler dial on my multimeter with one function per detent* and save some money at the same time. Buy what you need, not what you think youmightneed one day.(* OK, two functions on the ohms/continuity position)Quote from: J-R on September 03, 2022, 12:17:18 amExactly. It's only a few months old.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2022, 07:55:21 am
content: I didn't pass judgement on the BM857s, I simply pointed out the older design.The BM869 came out over 10 years ago, so it's "established" as well.The selector switch on the BM857s is a tiny bit less crowded than the BM869s because it is a lower-end model. The BM859s is the cousin to the BM869s. (As is the BM857s/BM867s).I purchased my BM789 in February of 2021, so a year and a half ago.Perhaps the best approach is to make at some attempt to predict your needs going forward and buy that if you can afford it. You'll not have to replace things as often and the extra features can stimulate skills growth.Back on topic, be sure to check out:https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMReviews.htmlhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 02:56:28 pm
content: OK... So I caved, and bought A Brymen BM786 EEVblog edition.Just one last thing: does the brand of fuses matter? I looked at replacement HRCs for the 10A range and the Bussmann DMM-11AR is a little hard to find and expensive, so I looked around a bit, and found one from SIBAhttps://www.tme.eu/cz/en/details/5019906.11/fuses-10-3x38mm-super-fast/siba/with (from what I can see) identical specs. The Bussmann doesn't list the trip time in their datasheet, and I don't want to put in a slower fuse and destroy the meter by accident.Thanks for showing me Brymen everyone.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 03:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: Mat219 on September 08, 2022, 02:56:28 pmNo.Quote from: Mat219 on September 08, 2022, 02:56:28 pmIf your Siba is "super fast" then you'll be fine. In theory you'll never need to replace it anyway, right?Remember: Don't ever buy fuses from non-reputable places to "save money". Fake fuses areeverywhere.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 05:24:27 pm
content: Between these two brands you should be fine - as Fungus mentioned, fakes are everywhere, so be careful where you buy them.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 05:35:49 pm
content: The last time I blew a multimeter fuse was on a battery powered device (3xAA). I went to measure volts and the probe was in the mA socket.Nobody's life was in any danger. It was an Aneng meter so fuses are cheap.Your Brymen has input jack alert so this mistake is very unlikely.

author: Mat219
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 06:04:29 pm
content: QuoteLet's hope so, I'm trying to be careful around mains, and I'll be even more careful now, knowing how much the fuses cost. (16$ a pop, yeesh)QuoteAnother useful piece of info. I didn't know fake fuses were a thing. Don't worry, I'm not buying protection components from Ebay, I'm not that broke (yet)