LeCroy's newest Siglent scope (SDS3000) has arrived! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 06:37:11 pm
content: It seems LeCroy has now released their variant of the Siglent SDS3000:http://teledynelecroy.com/newwave/It seems to be positioned directly below the current WaveSurfer MXs-B which runs Windows XPe. Like many new scopes it also offers signal generator (25MHz) and MSO capabilities as options, although the decode standards are limited (I2C, UART, RS-232, SPI). Math capabilities seem to be limited as well.The entry level (200MHz 2Ch) is listed as $3200 which really isn't *that* cheap. On the other side, this doesn't look like the huge (300% - 500%) markup LeCroy has put on other Siglent gear (WaveStation, WaveAce) in the past.I wonder for how much the Siglent SDS3000 will go for.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 07:16:37 pm
content: the web of the product looks like they're selling to managers not engineers.

author: blackdog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 07:31:04 pm
content: Hi,After half of the promotional video, i stopped it, i could not take it anymore, what a piece of bullshit!!!LeCroy you should be ashamed ...Kind regarts,Blackdog

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 09:00:56 pm
content: Fuck, that video hurts.And that creepy guy with the sunglasses ... The kind of guy that hangs around in a Corvette in front of a public school to pick up young girls to convert them into prostitutes.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 09:05:56 pm
content: Quote from: blackdog on July 01, 2014, 07:31:04 pmIt was a spectacularly cringeworthy video.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:09:31 pm
content: btw... is it only me ? or... ?.. i think a touch screen is actually a disadvantage... i don't want to touch the waveform and cover it with my finger... i want to see it all the time - that's why i'm using a scopeand actually adjusting with knobs and buttons is faster than touching the screen and sliding your finger to adjust something.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:22:44 pm
content: Urgh, that MAUI touch interface looks like a PC scope.Drop down touch menus, yeah, that's what I wantIf it's so good, why do they give you the knobs as well?

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 12:04:26 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on July 01, 2014, 11:09:31 pmYes, when you try and point out a trace, something funny happens. More than once I've had to point out a trace to someone. The touch would just piss me off.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 12:07:56 am
content: That design looks very ... Chinese.

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 12:48:28 am
content: No ARB

author: MJR
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 01:00:47 am
content: In watching the Maui demo vid I noticed the entire unit would wobble every time he pressed the screen. Either it was the wobbliest table or he was really pressing hard. It's the first video under "videos and tech briefs."And I don't know about any of you, but I'm wearing my "tech briefs" right now!

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 01:25:28 am
content: Quote from: MJR on July 02, 2014, 01:00:47 amLooks like it probably has a resistive touch screen so he had to push fairly hard. The table was pretty wobbly though.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 03:59:29 am
content: Interesting LeCroy have not offered the full SDS3000 range with models to 1GHzhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 05:06:26 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on July 02, 2014, 12:04:26 amWell, that's why all LeCroys with touch screen do have a button to disable the touch functionalityObviously I can't speak for this particular scope but on the other WaveSurfers and WaveRunners I found the touch screen actually very useful. For example, zooming into a signal is done by drawing a box over the part of the signal that is to be zoomed. This is much quicker than using the manual controls (which still is possible). Also, being able to select functionality by a simple touch instead of wading through menus is definitely a bonus. They really have integrated touch functionality very well, at least in their other scopes. At the moment I'm not so sure about the WaveSurfer 3000.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 05:12:56 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 02, 2014, 03:59:29 amI guess they want people requiring more than 500MHz bandwith to go with the WaveSurfer MXs-B (which is the last LeCroy Iwatsu scope) or the WaveRunner 6Zi instead.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 05:19:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2014, 11:22:44 pmBecause some things are quicker with knobs (i.e. horizontal and vertical settings), some are quicker by using the touch screen (i.e. selecting maths functions, changing the configuration, zooming into specific parts of a signal).It does work very well on LeCroy's XStream scopes. After seeing the video, I'm not so sure it does on this scope, though.Didn't LeCroy promise for some time to send you some stuff? Any chance they might give you one of these scopes for review?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 06:08:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2014, 11:22:44 pmWhat was your opinion around 25 years ago when HP launched new logic analyzer system 16500?It was series 16500 whole logic analyzer system, first A, then B and later C and between these series did not need change this user interface basics. But it need note that nearly sure this time also most users have been well educated and professionals. It was not for gameboy kids who do not understand what he is doing but he can push and turn every button in front panel and screen under some seconds and then tell this is crap because it do or show something he do not understand.Whole logic analyzer (+scope) have just one knob and touch screen.Oh well... more. Other knob is Power and there is also touch screen disable switch. All you do with touch screen and it is quite fast to use. And system is quite complex with several kind of modules (scopes, logic analyzers and many kind of pattern generators etc (it can optionally use with keyboard and mouse but all you can do just with turning this one knob and touch screen. )This equipment UI was so clever that it can use even people who have only one finger or not even it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 07:12:41 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on July 02, 2014, 05:12:56 amThat is most likely the case, but I believe an agreement between LeCroy and Siglent restricts Siglent from offering other models in the SDS3000 range that LeCroy do not market.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 07:23:50 am
content: Quote from: blackdog on July 01, 2014, 07:31:04 pmMy thought exactly and I turned it off.Ridicules.May be in a billion dollar market, they will find someone that is listening

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 07:39:11 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on July 02, 2014, 06:08:01 amGood example. And I fully agree with you.I guess the problem is that many (oldschool?) EEs still expect modern scopes to look like in the 1930's, i.e. all knobs and buttons, with vertical controls on left and horizontal controls on the right (which always struck me as odd, after all 'X' comes before 'Y'). Which is all well and fine if one uses an oscilloscope merely as a device to look at waveforms i.e. like a CRO). However, this can't work if the scope is used as a signal analyzer, which is what traditional scopes weren't. So there have to be additional controls, which simply weren't there on CROs.One way to deal with the additional functionality and the user controls required is to plaster the front panel with even more buttons (or give every button 5 or six different functions), which isn't the most ergonomical solution. Another way is to use softkeys, which is what many modern scopes use (as did older LeCroy scopes running VxWorks or LeCroy's own OS before that). But I really believe scopes are one area where touch interfaces really shine. Drawing a box around a signal area I want to zoom in or an area I want to trigger on is quicker and easier than doing the same with manual controls or wading through menus.This aside, it's not that LeCroy has dumped physical buttons and knobs, they are still there. All basic scope functions can be changed without having to touch the screen.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 07:44:19 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on July 01, 2014, 11:09:31 pmBefore making such a statement think about why every smartphone has a touchscreen nowadays. A touchscreen works very intuitive because of our nature.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 07:52:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 02, 2014, 07:44:19 amNot really, a touchscreen only works as well as the user interface behind it. Smartphones only work with a touchscreen because they spend the vast majority of time and money on the user interface, and a little bit on the backend, the complete opposite of a scope (usually).

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 09:08:33 am
content: Havent watched the video, but toddlers are using ipads. Only a matter of time until touch is expected everywhere. Im sure some creative people can come up wiht an interface that is intuitive to use.Set markers, zoom, scroll, slide out menus.

author: Andy2
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 11:10:49 am
content: I hate to see screens covered with greasy marks and smears. I wouldn't buy a touch-screen scope simply for that reason.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 11:52:38 am
content: Quote from: Andy2 on July 02, 2014, 11:10:49 amThere's actually very little greasy marks and smear. LeCroy doesn't use the same glossy display fronts that are used on cell phones and which are a real fingerprint magnet.These scopes aren't your regular tablet or smartphone. They have a matte display surface which doesn't attract smear and doesn't show fingerprints unless you touched some Wendy burgers before using it.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 12:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 02, 2014, 07:44:19 amagree , touch screens are perfect for smart phones, tablets and notebooks/laptops - i'm enjoying the touch control on all of those...but to adjust the scope i preffer knobs and buttons.... turn the knob and your offset is adjusted , wile with touch screen - it would be touch the screen to pop-up the offset adjustment and slide your finger to adjust.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 07:17:41 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on July 02, 2014, 12:41:45 pmIf the manufacturer didn't think for five seconds. Even back at the old Agilent Infiniium scopes (windows 98 bases >15years old) you could grab the waveform either by the waveform itself or by it's GND marker. In some cases this is even more intuitive than the know (say you want to move the waveform so that it lines up with something else)

author: Dongulus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 08:50:05 pm
content: I'm all for moving to touch screen user interfaces on oscilloscopes, but I haven't used one that works well. This one looks just as bad as any other. From the tech demo it looks like it's really slow and klunky.We have a Tektronix DPO7000 series scope at work and most of controls are only accessible through the (Resistive) touch screen. The menu system is like a typical Windows menu bar, and it's not very intuitive. The menu items are tiny and easy to select the wrong item, even with regular sized fingers. Worst of all, at the bottom of the screen the touch point doesn't line up correctly with the position on the LCD. I have to always mentally add a 1 cm offset to correctly select anything.Quote from: rob77 on July 02, 2014, 12:41:45 pmIt wouldn't have to be, the icons for offset are already always shown on the side of the screen, why not make those icons draggable? Same with the trigger.Maybe it's just me, but I would love to have the ability to pinch to change the time base and volts/div, or swipe the screen to look through a waveform. It's intuitive for looking at websites on my phone, I don't see why it wouldn't be intuitive for an oscilloscope. If someone could deliver me that and make it smooth and responsive, I'd definitely want it.Now when are we going to get an oscilloscope that's controlled using gesture recognition?

author: MJR
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 09:02:20 pm
content: I think it is all in the quality of the implementation. I know I was dead set against touch screens on a phone until I actually used one and appreciated how well the interface had been adapted to touch. I think that may also point to another problem they may have in selling this. Specifically, access to the unit before purchase. I had plenty of opportunity to use touch phones before switching. I doubt that will be the case here.The one area where touch screens do fail for me is entering fine adjustments through a simulated slider or knob. Often I find that the precision I need in a slider is not obtainable with my fat fingers. This happens in iCircuit a lot. I end up hitting the text area next to the slider and using the on screen keyboard because I can't get the slider to stay at the exact spot I want. This can be alleviated somewhat by the programmer, but if your finger tip covers 7x7 mm and the increments on the touch object are significantly less, it is very difficult to fix.Also, in general, change like this really requires a "killer function or app" that is hands down better than the competition and REALLY makes you re-think your bias for the way things are. I am not seeing that in the videos. Perhaps it is there, but just having a guy tell me that he "needs this" touchscreen is not it. And just showing me how the onscreen objects work like knobs and such is not it either.I will watch the videos again to see if I missed it, but it really needs a knock your socks off function to overcome the initial resistance to change. Also, I know that some scopes and analyzers had touch screen functions in the past, but they did not wipe out knobs and switch units simply because they were not so much better at what they did. Like it or not, change really does have to be demonstrably better to have a chance.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 09:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on July 02, 2014, 12:41:45 pmNope. In my idea: Just touch the signal and slide it up or down. Same for scrolling left/right and pinching or spreading your fingers to change the timebase or vertical scale. Who's idea is it anyway to have a vertical and horizontal scale in 1-2-5 increments? Those are just limits because of the knobs. I have dealt a lot with touch screen interfaces in the past and it really is a good technology when applied properly.A dirty screen is a disadvantage but then again I need to wipe the dust from my screens regulary anyway.

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 09:57:21 pm
content: Too bad a company like Apple doesn't see the profit in making an nice oscilloscope with a really good touchscreen interface. Although if they did, it would have only have ONE knob.

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 12:05:46 am
content: If your hands are dirty and greasy you shouldn't be touching electronic test equipment

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 05:18:25 am
content: Quote from: MJR on July 02, 2014, 09:02:20 pmThe 'killer function' simply isn't there with the WaveSurfer 3000 which at the end of the day only offers very basic functionality. But don't forget that this isn't the only LeCroy scope with touch screen, and on the larger scopes (WaveSurfer MXi and up, which are all XStream scopes running a full copy of Windows) the touch functionality does make much more sense, as there is more functionality available where touch brings an advantage.I guess the only reason the WaveSurfer 3000 has a touch interface is that they wanted to resemble the UI of their XStream scopes. Judging by the videos, it really looks rather clunky and cheap.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 05:03:58 pm
content: I like the way this UI is gong, obviously this is something you have to try to know if the right knobs and touchscreen features are there.Standard DB-15 connector (support resolution of 1024x600)Nice resolution increase, although you would think 1280x720 is easier to get now for this screen size.Still an big analogue output connector?How long do they expect the analogue connector to stay around on monitors...Edit:Their HDO4000 series does have an 12.1" 1280*800 screen and HDMI out. (but they cost a lot)If someone likes to give away like 10000 dollar let me know

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 05:57:09 pm
content: Let us compare Siglent vs. Lecroy again, LOL.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 06:00:20 pm
content: The waveform update rate IMHO slows down when that guy turns up that serial decoding.And he should buy a better non-wobbling table, LOL.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 06:08:24 pm
content: Quote from: iRad on July 02, 2014, 09:57:21 pmIf Apple would build an oscilloscope it would be called 'iScope' and would have been made from a single block of Aluminium, with only one button, and a ultra high resolution touch display with 48 finger multitouch support, It would look absolutely great, but would also have a single 542.7256 kohms input with proprietary connector which requires either special probes (in Apple white, 100MHz x10 for $579 a piece, 250MHz x1/x10 switchable for $799) or an 'iConvert' adapter ($449) which converts the proprietary input to a standard 1 Mohms BNC input. It would technically have 1GS/s real-time sample rate but Apple would call it '50G Supersampling' because that's what the scope would do in multisampling mode and this would be the only mode available (real time sampling could be unlocked after a jailbreak, though). Of course the scope would run 'iScopeOS' (which would be based on iOS) and come with the new 'iMeasure' application which would be something like iTunes but for waveforms instead of music. It would also come with its own integrated store where users can buy waveforms so they don't have to make measurements themselves any more.A year later the new iScope 2 would come out. It would of course be even shiny-er, and come with '100G Supersampling' (still based on 1GS/s ADCs). It would also come with two or four proprietary inputs, but unfortunately the connector is new and the impedance is now 711.3423 kOhms so the old probes and 'iConvert' no longer fit. Along with the new scope a new version of iScopeOS for scopes would be introduced, now with different color scheme ('Norwegian Tundra' as default color scheme) and support for biometric user identification by licking of the single scope button which also functions as biometric sensor, but since this requires a lickable button iScope 1 would be no longer supported.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 06:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on July 03, 2014, 05:57:09 pmWhat this "compare mean".All know it is technically same.You did not look what reads bottom left ofSiglentTFT."Siglent powered by Teledyne LeCroy"

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 06:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on July 03, 2014, 06:08:24 pmBest of month!ent 88 x

author: rkupka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 06:54:11 pm
content: Wuerstchenhund, you nailed it

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 07:05:56 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on July 03, 2014, 06:08:24 pmNo way would that happen...After a year on the market, the new release would be the iScope Plus with marginal performance tweaks. Those sitting on the 'iScopeOS' fence would have to wait another year for the real upgrade.Meanwhile, Google comes out with their me-too Android powered scope on a wrist that you control merely with eye movement gestures.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 08:01:15 pm
content: @ Wuerstchenhundyou really nailed it to the cross !and let's not forget their new patent ! "Lick to unlock" will be patented by them and all woman over the world using this "unlock" method will have to pay fees

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 10:43:25 am
content: This is the 4000 series UI but still interesting to watch (when you use a monitor or projector you can use a mouse instead of the touchscreen, it has HDMI out, it is basically a PC with scope front end using FPGA to PCIe)http://jaunty-electronics.com/blog/2014/03/apec-2014-lecroy-power-measurement-demo/

author: BalticLab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 02:30:06 am
content: Disclaimer: I'm just guessing and have no clue.In this case LeCroy probably lead the design, particularly on the SW side and uses the cooperation with Siglent to reduce manufacturing cost. I have used the MAUI interface on the HDO4000 for over a year now and I have to say that it's a very convenient tool. There seem to be a few misconceptions about how useful or not useful it is. Like someone brought up the issue that when pointing at the screen, one may accidentally hit the touch and mess something up. For that purpose there is a "touch enable / disable" button. I make it procedure to turn touch off after I'm done setting things up. But it's really nice to control things like zoom areas with my fingers. I will address some of the other issues listed in this thread once I hold the WS3000 in my hands and can transition from guessing to knowing.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 07:12:16 am
content: Quote from: KF5OBS on July 07, 2014, 02:30:06 amI really hope so. Siglent can produce some really decent hardware but their software is a different story (although they're probably still one of the better ones in the Chinese instruments market).QuoteThe HDO4k a true XStream scope, i.e. it runs the full XStream package on a 'full' version of Windows (yes, it's Embedded, but it's close to a standard Windows version, and you can install other Windows programs on the scope). The WS3000 on the other hand is apparently a true embedded device (ARM?) with an interface (MAUI) that resembles the UI of HDO and other Windows-based LeCroy scopes.QuoteYes, but judging from the video the WS3k UI doesn't seem to be as fluent as the XStream UI on the HDO and other Windows-based LeCroy scopes.