Suggestions for a good second-hand LA? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 02:07:22 am
content: I recently purchased an HP/Agilent 16702B without knowing about the (apparently) infamous corrosion issue due to the plastic runners used on the bottoms of the module boards. I went back and forth with the equipment company that sold it (it was sold as fully functional and non-DOA) exchanging boards with them -- every single one they sent me had corrosion issues that were clearly visible or were invisibly damaged to the point that the boards threw errors.They were tremendously gracious with me on this, and I don't fault them for not knowing.The mainframe was sold originally with a 16534A 2Gs/s, 500MHz two-channel scope board and two 16717A timing and state modules. Upon first boot, I immediately ran the self-test suite. The mainframe passed, and the scope passed, but one of the two 16717s failed its VRAM tests. The other board passed -- for a little while. It started throwing Comparators and ZoomChipSelTest errors -- about which I've posted in another thread in the (vain?) hope of trying to revive it.The company sent me additional boards in the hope that another one would pass, but to no avail -- and now I have a total offiveof these boards, none of which pass their self-tests.That said, I'm looking at other possibilities for a good second-hand LA.I've got an opportunity to get my hands on an Agilent 16902A that has a (potentially) faulty HDD -- the person selling it said that they can't test the logic analyzer module (a 16950B) because they can't get the system to start. Apparently, it blue-screens during the boot process. If that is indeed the case, that the thing just needs an OS reinstallation, would a unit like this be something more viable?If not, are there any other suggestions for something that doesn't cost me several thousand dollars?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 02:28:37 am
content: If you have room and want a NASA/Space-X/LLNL grade LA what about the HP 3314A? I have one older than my 30+ YO son and it works flawlessly.Looks as cool as f'k on the bench too.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 02:33:58 am
content: A 3314A? Isn't that a function gen?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 02:39:31 am
content: My bad. Wrong awesome device.This is what I was aiming at. The probes plug in the back, and IIRC you can have 32 of them.HP 1651A.Yeah, not the gorgeous SG.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 02:40:23 am
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 08, 2022, 02:33:58 amIt is. I made a bad all over the forum...

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 03:05:32 am
content: Which cables are the ones compatible with it? The only ones I'm seeing that I'm sure have them are absurdly expensive in the shipping department -- since they appear to be coming from overseas (to the US).I see a part number in an old HP Manual of 01650-61607, but a search for that part number turns up nothing on eBay. I've already got a couple of cables that go with the 16702B, and they look similar, but it's unclear whether the cables are actually the same in terms of how they connect to the back. My guess is that they aren't, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 04:34:28 am
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 08, 2022, 02:07:22 amIf you want a logic analyzer with flying lead probe connections, you don't want a 16950B logic analyzer module. The 16950B uses the 90-pin POD connectors. You would pay more for a single E5382A 90-pin POD breakout lead set than you would for the 16902A and the 16950B.If your 16702B is fully functional, one of the lower cost options to get going with it might be to pick up some 16555A/D or 16557D logic analyzer modules if you can get them at a reasonable price, with the cables included. The 16717A logic analyzer module cables are not compatible with the 16555A/D or 16557D logic analyzer modules. (They both use the same 40-pin connectors on the POD end of the cables).If you could get by with only 4K of sample depth, you might be able to pick up some 16550A logic analyzer modules real cheap (i.e. not much more than the cost of shipping) to use with the 16702B.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 04:39:53 am
content: QuoteThat's the odd thing...the 16702B came with one E5382A in its pouch, inexplicably. Knowing that, does that change anything?

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 05:07:50 am
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 08, 2022, 04:39:53 amWell that is some good luck, although a single E5382A flying lead set would only give you 17 logic analyzer channels. If you need more than 17 channels, then you would be back to paying a lot for another E5382A.Also, if a E5382A flying lead set gets a broken lead, the broken lead can't be replaced. On the original 40-pin POD flying lead sets, the leads can be individually removed and replaced. The cost of the 40-pin POD flying lead sets is reasonable enough that they can somewhat considered to be consumable items that can be replaced as they experience wear and tear.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 02:25:53 pm
content: I should also mention that I’m not wedded to HP, either, as I have a Tek scope and power supply. I’ve seen TLA 714s that don’t look super expensive, but I’m unfamiliar with them or what’s considered “standard” for them.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 02:45:36 pm
content: The cables are the 16550-61601. You will also need a pair of 01650-61608 pods to go with it. When I got mine, the cables were pretty cheap IIRC. The cable and 2 pods (32 total connections) came to less than $100. You can plug 3 of these sets in if you have the need and expand to 96 data inputs.Update: Sorry, this for the 1661 (my model) I think you are right, the cable for the 1651 is the 01550-61607. I wonder what the difference is. HP/Agilent are famous for assigning different part numbers to identical parts for use with different equipment. I guess you sell more accessories that way.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 04:03:56 pm
content: I suggest to look at the Tektronix TLA700 series logic analysers. IIRC the TLA715 is affordable and not super old. Probes and modules can be found very cheap (and you can uphack the modules because they are software limited).

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 11:45:16 pm
content: Tell me more about the Tektronix TLA 715. I’m not 100% sure that I am either ready or able to drop $2000 on one (because that’s about what they seem to be going for on eBay) but it’s worth some investigation. All of the units that I see on eBay that are less than $1000 are only the main frame portion, without any modules or cables.I do see TLA714sthat are going for anywhere between $300 and $500, but I’m not sure whether that’s worth it.It sounds like the most inexpensive option (at least from what I can make out) is to get an HP 16555D or 16557D, and get a set of cables to go with it. I’m having trouble finding either of those boards sold with their respective cables. Seems like people are parting things out.However, don’t the 165XX series of boards also suffer from the same corrosion issues that appear to plague the 167XX series of boards too? I seem to remember some threads from before mentioning that both lines had issues with corrosion due to the plastic runners.In terms of what I need, I am mostly working with older eight and 16-bit computer systems, game consoles, and the like. I have yet to venture into anything with a wider bit depth. While it’s conceivable that I could hop into something much deeper (as in trying to diagnose faults on a PlayStation 3) I’m not there yet, so my guess is that I don’t need anything more complicated than either 17 or 34 channels at one point. At this point, I certainly don’t need 8 pods worth of flying leads.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 12:26:20 am
content: forum member TiN donated a TLA714 to me (with built in TLA7AA4) 4 years ago, i paid 100+ shipping. and then i buy accessories (incl SSD drive, touch screen, keyboard mouse and spare LCD), overall including shipping costed me about a 1K, half of the price is TLA7E1 DSO Module 1GHz 5GSps out of pure lusti wouldnt recommend TLA714 (unless you have no other option) because the plastic covers all experience their natural disintegration. if you can get TLA715 its much nicer... i can see a mainframe for $477-600 (200 broken if want to take the risk fixing), a TLA7AA4 can be had $75, if you want cheaper TLA7L2/4 $28-50. and then P6860 34-Channel probes, last time i got deal 7 pieces for about $100+ including shipping but i cant see that anymore but there are seller still selling at $20-30 per piece. 4 piece should be a good start for 136 channels. so overall maybe you can get them working at $700. not really a cheap option anyway, but thats the cheapest we can get. how much channels and speed do you need? if only 8-16 channels, salae logic is much more modern, and there are clones. ymmv.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 12:33:29 am
content: $2k for a TLA715 is way too much. I'd start by lowballing at $250. See who bites. Many of the 'broken' ones simply miss the removable hard drive bay and thus won't boot. If the seller can show the display works with a boot error, all it takes is fitting an SSD in the internal bay and install the OS (Win2k). The removable hard drive bay is prone to poor contact anyway.Next thing is the software: you can control the TLA700 series remotely buy running the software on your PC. It won't be any faster or slower compared to using the LA directly but having a bigger screen is way more comfortable. You'll need a mainframe with a network connection. You'll need a 10/100Mbit Cardbus (not PCI!) PCMCIA network adapter. IIRC my TLA715 even came with such an adapter.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 12:36:46 am
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:16 pmIf you already have a fully functional 16702B, maybe I could set you up with a 16555A analyzer module with cables (two cables, breaking out to four 16-data-channel + 1-clock-channel PODs), but no flying lead sets, for not much more than the cost of shipping within the US. I could verify that the 16555A analyzer module currently passes all self tests. The 16555A is the 1M-sample version, the 16555D is the 2M-sample version. I have more 16555A logic analyzer modules than I will ever use at this point.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 02:15:35 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 09, 2022, 12:33:29 amThe mainframe options on eBay right now are pretty sparse. The ones that are sub-$300 are all very clearly not working or don't have an indication in the listing as to whether the system actually boots. I've messaged one seller about one thatmightbe a candidate (it says "tested to power on" and the shots just show a backlit black screen). One mentions that it doesn't complete the boot process usingWinXPinstead of Win2K, which makes me think that it might be a viable candidate.It also sounds like the LA modules for the Tek versions are generally less expensive for just as much capability -- it's the mainframes themselves that are the expensive portions.Quote from: gslick on September 09, 2022, 12:36:46 amI may just take you up on that, depending on how my search for a working 16717A plays out in the next few days. I've got one more replacement module coming, and if that doesn't work, I've found two 16557D boards that I might spring for, but I'm still REALLY leery of the corrosion thing, since I've been burned byfivestraight boards.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 07:23:07 pm
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 09, 2022, 02:15:35 amIf you wanted to go the Tektronix route, one option is a TLA721 mainframe. Those can sometimes be found for less than a TLA715 mainframe, even with the more expensive shipping for a TLA721 mainframe. Of course the very large downside to a TLA721 mainframe is the very large size. If you don't have a lot of open bench space, a TLA721 mainframe would not be a great option.Where are you located? I have a couple of Tektronix full-sized VXI mainframe logic analyzer chassis that I should get rid of cheaply, but they are not something that I have any interest in trying to ship.

author: Halberd
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 09:04:36 pm
content: I own and use both the 16702B and 16902A mentioned in the topic, as well as the 1672G.I can't recommend anything since you didn't say what specs and features you need and what you use them for, but I can make a few comments.Quote from: mbalmer on September 08, 2022, 02:07:22 amMy 16902A did not fail but to make it run a little faster, I replaced it with a new HDD and completely re-installed it and updated the LA application to the last release for use.If you have the installation CD(with WindowsXP Key code) and only the HDD is broken, recovery is rather easy.Quote from: mbalmer on September 08, 2022, 02:07:22 amI have yet to obtain a module that does not work properly due to this problem, but I think this problem is rather an easy one to fix. I think this problem is rather easy to repair, since it can be determined to some extent by visual inspection and a tester.I usually use the lowest spec 1672G for hobby use. Because it takes about 20 seconds from power on to use.The 16702B should take about 4+ minutes and the 16902A about 2 minutes or less.I bought a defective one, completely disassembled it, maintained it and used it, and the total cost of the three units(with some modules) was less than $1000.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 04:06:55 am
content: Quote from: gslick on September 09, 2022, 07:23:07 pmJoplin, MO. I am potentially willing to drive to pick up a unit, but it might have to wait until I get through some more of marching season (I'm a band director by profession).Quote from: Halberd on September 09, 2022, 09:04:36 pmMost of what I'm doing is diagnosing issues with 8-bit and 16-bit systems, and looking on the data/address buses of those systems along with serial and parallel bus spying. While I haven't done a larger bit depth system yet, there are some possibilities that I might later, so having the additional bandwidth to look will be helpful.Quote from: Halberd on September 09, 2022, 09:04:36 pmI think I'm throwing in the towel on the 16902 simply because of the cost of the 90-pin flying lead sets (between $400 and$2,000in varying states of completness?!?!), so as much as I'd like a module like that, it's a bit out of reach.Quote from: Halberd on September 09, 2022, 09:04:36 pmSeriously?! Somehow, I've had a string offive of themall in various states of disrepair. Two of them outright say the module has failed upon boot, the other three all throw errors related either to the comparators or the VRAM. I'm trying to see if I can revive some of them, but considering that my experience with these boards is very limited, I am struggling to perform tests and then dig out issues.Quote from: Halberd on September 09, 2022, 09:04:36 pmI don't mind the long power-up time -- what Idowant, however, is something that can handle, at minimum, a 16-bit wide data bus (preferably a 32-bit bus or a 64-bit bus if I'm really lucky), along with associated address pins, chip selects, and such for diagnosing and watching data streams. Again, mainly for work on retro systems and consoles, but potentially as late as the PS3 or Dreamcast era in terms of watching data lines.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 02:39:17 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 09, 2022, 12:26:20 amThe only issue I can see with this is that the P6860 looks similar to the HP E5346A — in other words, it ends in a Mictor-style compression clip. I need flying leads. That looks like the P6810 — the actual flying lead sets look super affordable, but the cables are back-breakingly expensive (unless I’m missing something, theleast expensiveoption is $670.Any suggestions here?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 06:18:40 pm
content: we try to make our own flying lead.. if no other cheaper option...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tla7aa4-p6860-probe-artwork/?topicscreenif you need gerber file for the one i've created, you can ask anytime, i will search where i've put it. ymmv.

author: RomDump
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 11:35:07 pm
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 10, 2022, 02:39:17 pmMechatrommer already mention this but you can make your own adapter for the P6860. Someone was selling the adapters on ebay, (see attached pictures).The other option is P6960 with 196-3494-01 adapter but you have to wait to get a good deal, (I paid $100US for both the probe and adapter but I had to wait).You are in the US so don't just look at E-bay for logic analyzers. I am seeing auction sites way cheaper (under $1000) than E-bay for newer Tektronix logic analyzers, (TLA7012 and TLA6404 etc). Someone bought a TLA6402 on an auction site for about $500 and was trying to sell it on E-bay for $5000, (he also posted it on this forum).Be patient.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2022, 12:40:14 am
content: but if i'm at OP's position i will try to fix the existing modules first. its a surprise all 5 modules fail. do they fail the same test? i'm not familiar but maybe you can open up and switch parts. if all repair attempts fail, only then spend extra money. ymmv.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2022, 01:33:12 am
content: The problem could also be in the mainframe (worn connector or someone gave it a treatment with contact spray).

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2022, 02:15:44 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 11, 2022, 12:40:14 amNo — each module fails a different set of tests, although there are some that are disturbingly common.Board A fails the comparators and ZoomChipSel tests.Board B fails comparators and calibration.Board C fails VRAM (both serial and parallel) and comparators.Board D fails VRAM, all Zoom chip tests, and one of the inter-board tests.Board E failsevery testexcept for chip registers, comparators, backplane clocks, the ICR test, and the arming test.So it seems that while the comparators test is a point of failure, it’s definitely not the only one.I’ve spoken to some others and they seem to believe that anything in the 167XX category is a ticking time bomb — it’s not a matter of if, but when it fails.Apparently the 165xx line is less prone, but it can still happen, and I was looking at some boards on eBay that had shockingly green-looking vias around their RAM chips. It’s why I’m leery of it. I essentially have a mainframe with a 500MHz 2-channel scope in it and nothing else to show for it.It’s also why I’m looking at the Tek options — while I like the setup of the HP systems better, if the Tek stuff is more reliable, I’ll take that.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2022, 04:07:24 am
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 11, 2022, 02:15:44 amIn the Tektronix TLA7xx logic analyzer modules, there is a soldered down Dallas NVRAM module. When the battery fails, the upgrade options and calibration data is lost. No big deal, just a bit of a hassle to redo the upgrade options and the self-calibration on every power on. It's been a while since I looked at any TLA7xx logic analyzer modules. I know I had one with a dead Dallas NVRAM module. No idea if I have more dead one now since the last time I looked. I didn't bother trying to desolder and replace the dead NVRAM module.That is less of a complete failure than that which sometimes happens with the newer Agilent logic analyzer modules. It might be something that is more common with the 16700/16900-series logic analyzer modules than the 16500-series logic analyzer modules. My guess is that a 16555A/D, 16556A/D, 16557D module that is still working today is likely to keep working for quite a while.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2022, 06:33:54 am
content: Quote from: gslick on September 11, 2022, 04:07:24 amAs I understand it, these NVRAM modules are also how one essentially unlocks the upgrades on the thing (at least, on the 7AA4 modules), so it might be worth it for that alone.Quote from: gslick on September 11, 2022, 04:07:24 amI have another 16717A coming in the next couple of days, as well as a 16557D with cables coming, so I will at least give those two boards (along with some of the troubleshooting from the other thread) a shot before I decide to give up on the 16702B.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2022, 06:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: RomDump on September 10, 2022, 11:35:07 pmWhere else are you looking? I only really know about eBay and a handful of e-waste folks that happen to deal in test equipment to look at.

author: Halberd
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 12, 2022, 09:06:27 pm
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 10, 2022, 04:06:55 amIndeed, 90-pin flying leads are very expensive. I have never seen cheap used ones and I can't afford them either.However, Samrtec/Mictor connector or soft-touch connectorless type cables can be found on eBay for less money.I bought mine from the US on eBay. And,Samrtec/Mictor was purchased from DigiKey.As others have written, we recommend making your own flying leads, etc.And 169xx modules are for 169xx frames only, but some 167xx modules can be used with 169xx frames.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2022, 01:54:47 am
content: I received a sixth and seventh 16717A board today. I plugged what we'll call Board F into the mainframe as the only board installed, and immediately received an error upon bootup that said that the module failed its' high-speed system clock test, and it claimed that the frame may need service.However, the board passes all tests withx modtestsfrom within pv.I then re-ran all tests by setting d=9 (butnotr=9).As it ran the test, once it reached the vramCellTest, it flooded the screen with information, mostly clock numbers and hexadecimal codes which I'm guessing relate to specific VRAM cells, the data sent and the data read back. It sat there counting down clock codes from over 2,000,000 for a good solid 30 minutes before it moved on to the next test. After letting it run, all the tests passed on debug level 9.I pulled Board F out, and replaced it with Board G. The frame powered up and got to the Workspace system without throwing any errors, so I logged into it via telnet and then ran a suite of module tests through pv.Sure enough,itfails three tests: cmpTest, calTest, and zoomAcqTest.This one fails cmpTest in an unusual way, however:Code:Check POD1 Thresholds:Slot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk No Act.Slot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk No Act.Slot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk LevelsSlot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk LevelsSlot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ B BBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB Cal Clk ActivitySlot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk ActivityCheck POD2 Thresholds:Slot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk No Act.Slot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk No Act.Slot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk LevelsSlot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk LevelsSlot E, Chip 9: B BBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB . ........ ........ Cal Clk ActivitySlot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk ActivityCheck POD3 Thresholds:Slot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk No Act.Slot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk No Act.Slot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk LevelsSlot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk LevelsSlot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk ActivitySlot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ B BBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB Cal Clk ActivityCheck POD4 Thresholds:Slot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk No Act.Slot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk No Act.Slot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk LevelsSlot E, Chip 8: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk LevelsSlot E, Chip 9: . ........ ........ . ........ ........ Cal Clk ActivitySlot E, Chip 8: B BBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB . ........ ........ Cal Clk Activity> Slot E: Comparator Test Failed!I'm about ready to give up on this boat anchor. This is potentially onlyoneout of seven boards I've received that has successfully passed all of its tests, and even then, the mainframe doesn't fully like Board F since it throws a boot-time error about the system high-speed clock.

author: RomDump
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2022, 05:16:55 am
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 12, 2022, 06:42:56 pmI don't know any auction sites in the US, (I am in Canada) but the guy bought the TLA6402 from theAuction Mill.BMI Surplushas a TLA715 with cables (no hard drive) for $900US.I think a better option for hobbyist if they are going with Tektronix and want it working out of the box would be the TLA5204/B series. Yes I know about the motherboard capacitor issues. The main problem is the price. I have never seen a working one under $1000.As others have stated the TLA715 has to be used as a controller (being remote control). Whereas the TLA5204/B spec wise has a better processor and is still usable as a standalone unit.I have a TLA715 btw and I haven't actually used a TLA5000/B so this is just a thought I have. YMMV.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2022, 05:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: RomDump on September 14, 2022, 05:16:55 amI'll keep that in mind. I know of a few local auction places, but especially where I'm at, test gear is an exceptional rarity. I'm much more likely to find power tools, tin signs, and hubcaps on auction sites.Quote from: RomDump on September 14, 2022, 05:16:55 am$1k is out-of-range for me, so it's looking like the TLA 715.I'm still going to give the 16702B some love (especially because I have a working 500MHz scope module for it) but I amthoroughlyfrustrated with the failing boards on this thing. It might see some service when I see the 16557D that I had ordered, but for right now, the thing is basically dead in the water for me.Quote from: RomDump on September 14, 2022, 05:16:55 amAs I understood it, the TLA has front panel controls, as well as a keyboard and mouse port, and didn't explicitly have to be controlled over a network. Even so, I intended to hook it to my network, so that shouldn't be much of an issue.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2022, 05:52:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 10, 2022, 06:18:40 pmI'm looking at that thread now, it looks like you can just break out the signals to 0.1" header. I wonder if it could be adapted to work with all of these 40-pin HP flying lead sets I've come into possession of.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2022, 06:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: RomDump on September 14, 2022, 05:16:55 amIMHO the TLA715 is a much better buy because you can swap (upgrade) the modules. I do have to say though that whatever you run the sofware on, it is going to be slow so having a 'fast' processor in the logic analyser itself or your remote control PC isn't going to help. For some reason Tektronix wrote the software in a very clumsy way that doesn't fully utilise the processor at all. An SSD is the most worthwhile performance update.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2022, 03:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 14, 2022, 06:02:52 pmFair enough -- as I mentioned, I think at this point, the HP is pretty much out of the running simply due to how many failures I've had with it. The 16702B has the scope board, one lonely working LA module (with the runners removed cleanly, so there's no hope of them corroding in the future) and six more that are in various states of failure. If I can get two or even three of the boards working, then I might turn around and re-sell the LA, but for right now, it's an interesting repair project. The TLA will be the actual analyzer I use when it gets here -- once I can get the probe adapter boards made.

author: RomDump
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2022, 05:33:31 pm
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 15, 2022, 03:03:02 pmbtw: With the TLA715 you have options instead of making the probe adapter board.You can buy a TLA7P4 module and P6417/P6418 probes.Most people just bought the TLA7AA4 and P6860 probes because it was widely available.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2022, 06:40:38 pm
content: I strongly recommend going for the P6417 as these have better contacts compared to the P6418. If you go that route...The advantage of the TLA7AA4 module besides even more memory and higher samplerates are the 4 analog outputs that output any of the input signals. It is super handy to be able to connect an oscilloscope and use the logic analyser as an analog mux / buffer to look at various signals. That way you have a mixed signal analysis tool. IIRC the analog bandwidth is >1 GHz.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2022, 06:47:22 pm
content: Quote from: RomDump on September 15, 2022, 05:33:31 pmYeah, that's basically what I did. The 715 is going to come with a 7AA4 installed in it, and I could find P6860s for about $15 each -- and also because supposedly, the 7AA4s are up-hackable in a rather dramatic fashion.Now my goal is to just get my hands on either the schematic for the probe adapters, or the footprint for the probe heads, so I can instead design an adapter to an HP flying lead set instead -- since I've got something like 12 of them now.Quote from: nctnico on September 15, 2022, 06:40:38 pmI went the P6860 route.Quote from: nctnico on September 15, 2022, 06:40:38 pmDoesn't that functionality require a compatible scope? I remember reading that there were certain scopes that were "supported" but I don't own one (I have a TDS 460, which isn't on their list). I'm guessing this is a BNC output on the LA that goes to an input on the scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2022, 06:57:45 pm
content: There is some software / hardware tool to support cross-triggering between Tektronix scopes and their logic analysers. But I don't really see the need for that. You can use the trigger input / output on the logic analyser just fine to make it work together with an oscilloscope from any brand. The analog outputs on the TLA7AA4 module are just analog outputs; it doesn't matter what you connect it to. IIRC even the gain is adjustable.The footprint for the probe heads is in the P6860 user manual

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2022, 09:09:25 pm
content: In my opinion the main advantage of integration between a scope and a logic analyzer is to see both signals simultaneously on the same time base. The HP/Agilent logic analyzers with their contemporary scopes had a feature where the scope and analyzer's timebases were synchronized so time relationships between the digital and analog signals would be maintained, and you could for example see the relationship between a glitch in an analog signal on the scope and a specific pattern on the digital bus. Before that some analyzers had optional internal DSO channels that would sample on the same timebase as the digital channels, but the scopes were pretty anemic in terms of memory depth.I would imagine the Tektronix tool did something similar, but it will generally only be supported with scopes from the same manufacturer and time frame.

author: RomDump
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2022, 12:19:39 am
content: Quote from: mbalmer on September 15, 2022, 06:47:22 pmQuote from: nctnico on September 15, 2022, 06:57:45 pmQuote from: alm on September 15, 2022, 09:09:25 pmThe product Tektronix called Iview, (I beleive it is already built in to the TLA 4.3 and up software). Basically with a compatible Tektronix scope, a NI GPIB-USB-B(or HS) cable and some BNC cables you can see a correlation between analog signal and digital signals. As ALM mentioned, one use would be to see glitches.You don't need a TLA7AA4 with analog inputs but it is helpful as you can automatically route the digital line you want to see.With the older modules you had to do double probing (one probe from the oscilloscope and one digital line from the logic analyzer) which would introduce additional signal integrity issues.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 08:40:51 pm
content: So after playing around with the TLA, the one thing I've noticed is that since it runs Win2K out of the box, itdoesn'thave remote desktop functionality built in. Everything I've read says that an upgrade to Windows XP is required to do that.However, I'm running into a problem. The BIOS version is 1.00.00, and supposedly, there's a 1.00.02 version that it may or may not need to be updated to to make it possible to upgrade it to XP. My issue there is that there's no way to use a floppy to boot the system since it doesn't seem to like floppies formatted using Windows 98 -- and Win2K can't create boot floppies that aren't intended as a means to eventually install Win2K. I haven't tried formatting the disk from a running XP machine, but that's next on my list.My question is, is there a disk image that I can boot from that includes the BIOS file? TiN seems to have the files on the xdevs website, but even he mentions that you have to make a bootable floppy to use them.I've tried using a Windows XP install disk directly, and the system appears to hang at the "Setup is starting Windows" segment in text mode (when it changes from an 80x25 to an 80x30(?) screen). My guess is that the installer is still running, but the video system doesn't know how to handle the oddball text mode. Has anyone else had that happen?In the probes department, I'm still trying to figure out an answer. I've got four sets of probes now, and new elastomers on their way, so hopefully I'll have something workable here soon, but it doesn't look like anyone has a KiCad library for the probe footprint just yet.The help all of you have given me so far has been invaluable and I'm overall much happier with the Tek device, assuming I can get the probes and remote control thing sorted out.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 09:01:14 pm
content: You don't need remote desktop. Install the logic analyser application on your regular PC and start the remote control server on the logic analyser. Remote control isn't remote desktop but SCPI / GPIB like over LAN. Don't upgrade the LA to XP because the hardware drivers won't work with XP.

author: RomDump
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 10:21:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 20, 2022, 09:01:14 pmWhat hardware drivers are specifically missing? First time I am hearing of this.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 10:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: RomDump on September 20, 2022, 10:21:43 pmI start to think I made a mistake. From my old posts it seems the TLA715 can run Windows XP. I started my TLA715 (for the first time in 3 years or so) and it runs Windows XP indeed.In my old post I also warned about the removable drive bay; these are prone to problem so mount the hard drive internally.

author: mbalmer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 04:11:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 20, 2022, 09:01:14 pmI've heard about the removable drive bay. It's functional on my system, so I won't necessarily stop using it, however, I also have an mSATA SSD and an adapter to 2.5" 44-pin IDE that I intend to put XP on along with updated versions of the TLA software as I've read elsewhere (supposedly, the drivers for the modules are included with the TLA software, and some places say version 5.1 works with it, others say 5.6 and even version 6, but I've also been told that versions above 5.1 need firmware updates to the modules to make them work). I'll hopefully end up mounting the mSATA drive internally, but I want to get past the installation of the software first.If something doesn't work, my intent is to keep the removable hard drive bay on hand so that if something goes awry, I can simply put the old drive back in it and it should be fine.