How to tag someone in a post?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bigjoncoop
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2023, 09:45:47 pm
content: Is it possible to tag a forum member in a post?On most forums you can simply put a @ sign before there name and it will tag them.Or sometimes after writing the @ sign a drop down list will appear so you select a members name...But it seems that @"member name" doesn't tag the person here on the eevblog forum.Thanks

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2023, 09:59:13 pm
content: I use @ here, but it doesn't seem to have any effect. Same goes with quoting an individual. Nothing special in terms of a notification happens so far a I know. Does it matter? (Not to me.) At least the @ lets most people know to whom your response is directed.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 12:28:15 am
content: There is indeed no such thing on this forum, and to be fair, whether it would be a good thing is questionable. If the person is following a given thread and sees their nickname in posts (whether you add a @ or not, doesn't matter much), they'll see they are being mentioned. If they are not following a thread enough to see that, then they may not want to be bothered with notifications anyway. I'm not completely sure I like the concept of "tagging", whereby people are supposed to say so important stuff that the other absolutely has to be notified. Dunno. If one really wants to say something to someone in particular, they may just write a PM. If it really matters.But mentioning who you are replying to - unless it's the OP, which should be IMO implicit then - yes. Definitely. Or even better, quote the specific part you are replying to, that helps. Try to make the quote relevant (do not quote everything by default just because, or OTOH try not to quote out of context, that's also annoying.) Just my random 2 ethereums.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 01:16:23 am
content: Not that I know of.The easiest thing to do would be to create your post and then send them a private message with a link to it.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 09:43:24 am
content: It works... sometimes? I've had alerts before. But they're not well known and rarely used here.Ah yeah, it's a bb tag:@Halcyonis a gooberTim

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 10:10:52 am
content: The bottom line in the Profile menu is 'Mentions' but it doesn't show anything. Not sure if it's broken/switched off/not implemented.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 10:40:36 am
content: Depends, you ever been tagged@PA0PBZbefore?Tim

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 11:23:53 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on December 19, 2023, 10:40:36 amYes, and no, still nothing

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 11:51:48 am
content: Please do not "tag" or "mention" someone.Please do quote their points.Tags/mentions are used on FarceBoor, Twatter and similar. Those antisocial muddia sites use suchfeaturesbugs to deliberately hobble discussion of subtle points; they favour trite instant reactions.I don't want this forum to follow that path.Other forums discourage subtle ongoing discussions by only allowing single level quotes, but that's a different point.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 12:17:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 23, 2024, 11:51:48 amAnd if the person you want to mention has not been involved in the thread, quite possibly is not aware that it even exists, but is known to be expert on the matters being discussed?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 01:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 23, 2024, 12:17:15 pmInclude a link to one or more of the experts posts?PM the expert?But maybe the expert has seen the thread and doesn't want to be involved. There are some Awful/Aweful Examples of threads started by certain incontinent posters

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 02:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 23, 2024, 01:19:15 pmI'm not a fan of arguments along the lines of "We shouldn't have fast cars / guns / pseudoephedrine / modems / books because bad people exist who might use them in a bad way".There are mechanisms to deal with bad people directly, without taking away useful things from normal people.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 03:12:52 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 23, 2024, 02:03:14 pmI'll avoid the detour into that rathole territory.I will note that mechanisms are only useful if reliably enforced. That is far from guaranteed. Take, for example, the "thanks" mechanism on this website; there's at least one poster that thanks every response in the myriad of twattish threads he has started. (N.B. some people directly tell him he is an idiot, and he thanks them!)

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 03:25:35 pm
content: I have read all the post so far, and must say it is quite interesting to see the different opinions.So, how about this:IMHO, I believe that tagging should be available in the forum.However, I also believe that each user should be able to turn tagging notifications off is s/he desires.That way everybody goes home a winner !Cheers,rudi

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 11:08:22 pm
content: QuoteEveryone wouldn't be a winner, unfortunately. The dislike of mentions by tggzzz seems to be not because they might get one but because other users might post and/or receive them.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 11:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 23, 2024, 11:08:22 pmI think they are a bad concept arising from flaws in platforms deliberately enshittified for commercial reasons.I would be partially mollified if I could stop other people tagging me. Obviously that's a non-starter.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 11:27:03 pm
content: Every platform has flaws. Regardless of where mentions kicked off, and for what purpose, I have seen them being used usefully on various systems that most definitely aren't facebook. I think that they are pretty much embedded in the online world now and just as much a basic thing as email, emojis, etc.Mind, the only time I've used them is when I am on a system where they are expected, to identify who is being thanked or otherwise replied to. When in Rome, etc.

author: Wil_Bloodworth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 11:55:58 pm
content: While I certainly can understand both side of this "mentions" topic, I find it extremely handy at work and use it all day long in Teams. However, that is a real-time business situation and is slightly different than here.That said, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone tags or mentions me... but, that's just me... I don't give 2 poops about controlling other people's  actions. If I don't like something, I can just "walk away"... I know... it's shocking... you can actually leave. LOL. I'm not on FB or Twitter or IG or anything else so whatever.- Wil

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 12:30:50 am
content: Quote from: Wil_Bloodworth on February 23, 2024, 11:55:58 pmThat sounds like an online to-and-fro chat abouttoday'sactivities, i.e. similar to FarceBook/Twatter.As you say, that is different to somewhere like this forum, where people often refer back to posts made many years or even more than a decade ago.I did that earlier today, when I referenced a picture in reply #8 in this 2015 (!) threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tek-485-repair-and-restoration-prologue/msg799741/#msg799741

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 12:35:55 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 23, 2024, 11:27:03 pmIndeed, every platform does have its flaws.On this platform I miss some of the old usenet reader's ability to completely ignore posts from a small number of posters. Usenet had flaws that made that ability essential, of courseThat isn't an excuse for importing other platform's flaws into this platform

author: metebalci
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 05:10:42 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 23, 2024, 11:14:58 pmJust trying to understand. If I want to say in a post something about you wrote, you prefer me to write "tggzzz said ..." rather than "@tggzzzsaid..." ? You mentioned "quote" should be used but independent of its use, there is a need for a "mention"=reference to someone in a text.If you are against mentions because of notifications, I definitely agree that there has to be a setting and maybe it should be an opt-in.The use of at symbol is probably due to both aesthetics (easy to distinguish the username) and a technical reason (because it is not just a word). So I am in favor of its usage but together with an option to disable the notifications.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 09:55:26 am
content: Quote from: Wil_Bloodworth on February 23, 2024, 11:55:58 pmMate, this is theinternet. You gotta get your priorities right.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 11:41:44 am
content: Quote from: metebalci on February 24, 2024, 05:10:42 amNone of that, as I have previously and explicitly stated.If you want to say something about one of my posts, quote that post. Don't make it about me. Do make it about what I said.There are far too many people whodeliberately choose to make strawman argumentsso they can advance their own contentions. That's reprehensible.For those with limited comprehension abilities (or who have other agendas), there's no problem in advancing their own contentions per se. But misrepresenting someone in not acceptable

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 11:52:12 am
content: @PlainNameI agree. Repeat I disagree.That's a crude extreme example of how merely mentioning someone is poor style and untasteful. While both of those statements is true, the lost context is critical.It could, heaven forbid, be used as a "weapon": add such a tag to many posts in a tiny font so the recipient gets inundated but other people don't notice, or be malicious by using the wrong member id

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 01:37:21 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 24, 2024, 11:52:12 amIt seems unlikely one could generate enough conspiracy to create a DDoS this way, and a lone actor can simply be reported to admin and banned. It's... not difficult, there are systems in place for this already.Tim

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 03:47:54 pm
content: I'm not really sure whatbigjoncoopmeans by tag. If it's just create a link to their profile, then that's easy, as I've just demonstrated. I right clicked on their name, copied the link and pasted into this post in url tags.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 03:50:17 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 24, 2024, 01:37:21 pmCompletely valid, of course! But significant irritation could be caused.I expect I could dream up ways to do that in a manner that (superficially) appears justifiable and even helpful. At least one member here relentlessly (?mis?)uses the "thanks" mechanism oneverypost in their threads, even those that are distinctly uncomplimentary. So far I've been thanked 5k8 times, which is pretty meaningless.For the avoidance of doubt, I dislike any form of up/downvoting: too easy to game, and if I say something sensible/helpfulhere, it shouldn't imply the sameelsewhere. Judge what I write, not who I am.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 03:55:08 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 24, 2024, 03:47:54 pmI suspect he merely thinks that he's used to it elsewhere, and this place is unfamiliar.That's fine, but the best course of action is to (gradually) grok why this place is good and better than other places.I always hate it when English people go on holiday abroad, and complain they can't get decent bacon and eggs, and that the policeman wear funny hats

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2024, 06:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 23, 2024, 03:12:52 pmIf he’s thankful for being called an idiot, then… more power to him?It’s weird, but harmless. It’s not like it takes away someone else’s thanks. There’s no finite supply of them on the server.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2024, 07:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 24, 2024, 03:47:54 pmI other board software when I log in or refresh I get two notices at the top of the page, one is for "tags" (posts where i have been mentioned to call my attention to the post or thread) and one for quotes where i have been quoted or responded to. I like both things.To be honest the software of this forum is the one I like the least. I also like it when in the forum main thread list I can mouse over the thread title and see the text at the beginning of the post so I can get a better idea if I want to open it or not. Here there are threads with vague or cryptic titles that I have opened several times just to find out I am not interested.So, if we had a vote I would vote for (1) see thread beginning o mouse over (2) Quotes notification and (3) tags notifications.OTOH the main thing I am here for is the high quality content and there is so much crap around the internet that the forum software is the least of issues.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2024, 07:25:33 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on February 25, 2024, 07:11:23 pmVarious "features" are used on other sites to attract attention. People that succumb to such misadventures are more likely to like the crap there.Hence, although it doesn't logically follow, I have the (partially satisfied) hope that if we keep such misfeatures away then the crap will stay away.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2024, 08:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 25, 2024, 07:25:33 pmI guess it is a matter of opinion and I do not think I agree. At least for me implementing those things would make the forum easier to use and more enjoyable and I do not think they would attract more crappy posters than we already enjoy. I think the way to keep crappy posts and posters away is with good community habits and good moderation but that is just my opinion.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2024, 09:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on February 25, 2024, 08:16:23 pmI don't see those features would allow me to do anything more or more easily.The good community habits are, indeed, key.Unfortunately I've been irritated recently by a several new prolific posters that, for example, prefer to waste people's time with questions that easily be googled. (They irritate other people too). I remember Eternal September, with displeasure.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 12:24:32 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 25, 2024, 09:55:43 pmTo each his own. I participate in other forums and I like it that I open the page and right there I have notifications for (1) quotes, (2) mentions and (3) private messages. I really like not having to go look for these things and i cannot see how this could bother anybody but, again, to each his own. I also like the mouse over thing where I can see at first glance what the post is about. Again, I cannot see how this could bother anybody. You do not have to use these things if you don't want to. I think pretty much every other forum has these features and I do not see that they degrade the quality.And, yes, in every forum I visit, including this one, I have a few posters on my ignore list.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 12:35:06 am
content: Quotes? The "new replies to your posts" page does what I need: direct me to a thread I have previously found interesting.PMs? Yes, necessaryMentions? Quotes are better, since they contain the context and content.I've only very recently added a few people to my ignore list. I don't like doing that. (And it doesn't work properly anyway).

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 03:02:29 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 26, 2024, 12:35:06 amKind of, but not really. It doesn't differentiate at all between people directly replying/continuing a thread of conversation I was involved in vs. a thread that I posted in once years ago that just refuses to die and has gone off topic or strayed into stuff I don't much care about anymore.Quote from: tggzzz on February 26, 2024, 12:35:06 amYou keep repeating that without actually responding to the points made that they are for different things, and just dwelling on the fact that it can be misused where quotes would have been more appropriate.Quote from: tggzzz on February 26, 2024, 12:35:06 amSeems like a perfect example of why the minimal features/minimal functionality isn't necessarily a total good... any effect it has on reducing low quality posters is balanced by the fact that the tools for users and mods to deal with them also suffer.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 09:13:40 am
content: Quote from: abeyer on February 26, 2024, 03:02:29 amAlthough imperfect, for me it works well enough for that purpose.I do occasionally "ignore threads" that have become completely uninteresting to me. I'm now having use that mechanism for a few irritating posters.QuoteI don't really understand that sentence.Inasfar as I so understand it, I don't want egoboos (i.e. mentions), but I am happy to discuss specific points I have made. Hence quotes are fine but mentions are not.QuoteEven if mechanism X is imperfect, it doesn't mean mechanism Y is better/useful/good/etc.That smacks of "Something must be done. This is something. Therefore this must be done". That's a common fallacy, particularly in politics:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician's_syllogism

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 02:28:52 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 26, 2024, 09:13:40 amThat seems disingenuous... people have repeatedly explained their use cases why mentions are useful in this thread -- you just don't like them yourself so choose to dismiss their positions and act like they couldn't possibly have a reason for mentioning someone without explicitly quoting something that person said. (I'dloveto have seen your high school history teacher's face when reading your essays where every single historical figure's name is accompanied by a quote of theirs)Quote from: tggzzz on February 26, 2024, 09:13:40 amExcept no one is even asking for anything to be done, given that mentions, as has been pointed out, already exist and work fine here, they're just slightly awkward to enter the bbcode.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 08:28:36 am
content: I wonder if it's possible to implement this, with the facility for users to opt out, so they can prevent others tagging them?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 10:06:17 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 27, 2024, 08:28:36 amHow could they opt out? Someone just puts a @ in front and you're @tagged - no way you can stop them doing that. Perhaps you meant opt out of notification of the tag. Subtle difference

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 10:19:27 am
content: Quote from: abeyer on February 27, 2024, 02:28:52 am(I'dloveto have seen your high school history teacher's face when you told them you needed to send every one of the historical figures you mentioned a letter or postcard to tell them you referenced them in your essay.)No, really. If you want to refer to someone, just use their username in the text. Why do you insist they need to be notified you used their username in a post?If you want to know who has referred to you, just do a forum search on your username, and sort the results most recent first. I sometimes do that, but limiting the advanced search to posts made by a specific other member, to see if I've already discussed the issue with that member, to try and avoid repeating the same arguments. (As many dislike my long-ass posts, I'm sure they'd be even more aggravated if I kept repeating the same argument, so I try hard to not do that.)I do not generally want to know if others refer to me in their posts. If they think I should participate in a thread, they can send me a friendly one-liner PM. I don't need to be notified. If I need to be notified of something, PMs exist for exactly that purpose.Why should I spend my very meager cognitive faculties to try andignoreinformation that basically nobody needs, but a few members here think might benice?If I could disable the mentions, I would: I find them distracting, clamoring for my attention, when cognitively I don't want to know or react to people talking about me without telling me the context. I do not understand the purpose of mentions, unless it is exactly to affect emotions (involvingconnectednessand enticing/manipulating others to at least observe the discussion/thread just because they were mentioned), so in my view, they are purely a social "game", and provide no useful function that private messages or forum advanced search do not already do better.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 10:58:15 am
content: QuoteFeature creep.Originally they were just a way to refer to someone in-thread. So, for instance, I am replying to you now but I might then also comment to another poster in this same comment. Why? Many reasons, but perhaps it's just an aside (@bloggs - we discussed this in t'other thread) or something. The point is that it's simply making someone else aware that this particular bit is aimed at them. And, often, a quote (if one could be found) would be way over the top and inappropriate.Nothing wrong with that, and kind of clever. The comment is aimed *at* someone, and the @ is just a way to compress the necessary wibble that would otherwise reflect that.Then someone implements the notifications and there you have mentions. I see it used on sites where there is no support for it at all - no notifications, not highlights, nothing - but it is still appropriate when used as shorthand.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 11:34:54 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 27, 2024, 10:58:15 amSure; and I use the long-hand version of it ("I discussed this with bloggs in another thread"), and that's perfectly okay. It's perfectly okay to refer to any of my discussions using my name that way, too; it is thenotificationI was mentioned thus that aggravates me.It is one more thing clamoring for my attention. I don't want that; it is useless cognitive load with no other purpose than "being social" somehow. I don't wanna.Quote from: PlainName on February 27, 2024, 10:58:15 amYes; and my point is that making such a mention throw a notification to that referred to person, is like sending a postcard to anyone you've mentioned in a discussion saying you did so, with a link to the discussion. That is the useless, annoying, social gamification bit I dislike.If a member could disable seeing the notifications, I'd be absolutely fine with this. I have no problem with the shorthand, either, as I do read '@' as 'at' anyway, and it is obvious from the context even if you hadn't noticed it before. I only object to getting the darn notifications when someone 'at's me; it's is unwanted and unwarranted cognitive load that does actually bug me a bit. Perhaps I'm an odd one out –– I even tend to scroll the post edit window so I don't see the animated emoticons when I don't want to use them, because they too are distracting; and before looking at interesting threads, I do always read my PM's ––, but I just fail to see the utility of a mention sending an unavoidable notification to the mentioned member.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 11:38:13 am
content: And I can immediately see how new users can start bugging members to answer their questions or to participate in the threads they start in the hopes they will help, simply by 'at'-ing them.There; I warned ya. Don't tell me "nobody could have foreseenthiswould happen" in a year or so, when older members start leaving because they get fed up with the incessant "mentions" from newbies wanting quick answers.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 12:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 10:19:27 amPrecisely, particularly the phrases I'veemphasised.I have no problem with the @tggzzz convention, provided it is obvious why I am being referred to - but frequently it isn't.I hate the way mentions are used as "look at me, pay attention to me" crap that is at the centre of FarceBook and Twatter.

author: metebalci
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 12:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 10:19:27 amI have asked this to tggzzz because:Quote from: tggzzz on February 24, 2024, 11:41:44 amIt was like he insisted to use quote's (and not call just by name). English is not my first language, and I have not stayed in an English speaking country more than a month, so probably I misunderstand the point here.Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 10:19:27 amI do not care about notifications at all (edit: I mean I dont need this feature, if it exists, there has to be an opt-out). I do not care if there is a separate page that you can see all the places you are mentioned. I understand for some these could be useful, not much for me. My main reason is partly aesthetics partly correct usage. In mailing lists, at least the ones I was following years ago, people usually were using the first names, or signing the posts by their names, so when replying, it was obvious how to address someone. I actually started doing the same here as a habit, but then I see it is not a custom, almost nobody signs the posts with their names, so I also do not anymore. Also, the usernames here either do not represent the (real) names or even if it represents many may not guess if it is a real name or a nick name (e.g. my username).Aesthetically, I do prefer to mark a username in a text (and at symbol works for me), because the username is not part of the language (I am not saying this for English, as it is not my native language, but I do think the same for my native language as well) and also it has a special function (like a URL), it is like using single or double quotes or italics (depending on the language) when using a foreign word in a text, or using url markup here or in other platforms.For the correct usage, I do have unnecessary difficulty writing the nicknames. It is hard to remember (so I have to go back and check) if Nominal Animal has a space, how many 'z's tggzzz has, was it toki or tooki (I guess some would have difficulty with my username as well). So writing @Nomi and seeing Nominal Animal there is very quick and eliminates any mistake. I do not see autocomplete works here in this blog, if there are mentions, I would like to see this as well.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 02:41:24 pm
content: Quote from: metebalci on February 27, 2024, 12:21:04 pmAh. Me fail English often too. My native language is Finnish.The key is that when you refer to another member, it is okay to use their name in the text.When you refer to what that member has written, you must quote them exactly.Because a person is not their opinion or output –– those are what theyhaveanddo, not what or who theyare–– the two cases where you can use their name without quoting them are basicallyWhen you direct a tangential question or statement to another member who is already participating in the discussion(If they are not, you send them a PM linking to the thread, with that tangential question or statement and a bit of context in the PM text; never just "could you take a look at [this thread]?")Example: (tggzzz: I hope this does not look like I'm putting words in your mouth!)When you refer to the member in general, and not to any specific statement, question, or post they have made; nor to your understanding of what they have expressed before or might express in the future.Example: I like the way David Hess helps beginners in the Beginner and Projects forums. I wish I could be as concise and calm.If it ever involves any kind of statement another member has made, it does need to be a quote. Aspersions, hints, implying stuff is Not Okay, no matter how common in social media. We're here for the underlying logic, reasoning and experience; and not to score personalities or see whose opinion is most popular.Quote from: metebalci on February 27, 2024, 12:21:04 pmYeah, I can see how support for @ -mentions that turns them into links to the user profile page can be useful in the post editor, especially for those who have dyslexia. I don't mind such mentions becoming a link to that member's profile page at all. I don'tlikethem, but because I can see how it could be useful for other members, I'd have to accept it. (Just like I accept the animated emoticons, even though I find them distracting. I can work around it.)I only object to the automatic and unavoidable notification sent/delivered to the mentioned user, becausethatis the part I don't see any use for, and which actually bothers me, and which I claim is just social gamification. I could be wrong, of course, but this is my current opinion based on what I have observed thus far, and how an "evil version of me" (with a goatee) might misuse the mechanism just to annoy others and to try to get others to focus on me.I've already prepared, so that if they do become common enough to bother me, I can always use an extension in my browser to edit the notification out so I'll simply never see them. I already have to do that for most ads here, which I do not like to do, because it can affect Dave's income (a tiny bit, but nevertheless).I do believe the possible downsides –– misuse by newbies, and misuse by trolls who use the mention mechanism to ensure the targets of their snide remarks will see them, hopefully before the moderators have time to react and remove the post –– are vastly greater than any upsides.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 03:56:51 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 02:41:24 pmAs you say, this isn't social media.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 03:59:47 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 27, 2024, 08:28:36 amI like in other forums where when I log in or open the main page the first thing I see at a glance is (1) unread private messages, (2) tags and (3) quotes. That way I can direct my attention first to these things. They are all there very visible.I find tags very useful, for example, newbie comes and asks about topic X, he gets an answer or two but someone tags the resident expert on the topic so his attention is called to the thread. Of course he can just ignore the call if he so wishes.And, just to reiterate, I also find the mouse over feature very useful.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 04:20:59 pm
content: A tagging mechanism already exists on this forum; it is called "mentioning". It seems that every member can be "mentioned" and will get notified, but only some accounts can create mentions. Seethis threadfor some discussion on this.The notification one gets when being "mentioned" isveryunobtrusive. I have shown a partial screenshothere. I don't see the need for an opt-out mechanism; the little indicator is very easily ignored if you don't care about mentions.Also, I don't see how this could be perceived as an addicitive, social-media-style mechanism. Nobody else sees your mention list; there's no scoreboard or anything like that. Personally, I certainly don't get an endorphine boost out of seeing that little "" indicator.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 04:42:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 27, 2024, 03:56:51 pmI think this is a telling example how quoting can also be used in detrimental ways. You took Nominal Animal's very detailed and differentiated post and not only chose to quote just a single snippet which suited you, but also paraphrased it in a distorted, biased way to make your point, literally putting words in Nominal Animal's mouth ("As you say...").Very bad style in my opinion, and potentially destructive for the discussion. Maybe that dangerous quoting mechanism should be disabled here?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 05:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on February 27, 2024, 03:59:47 pmThat's what happens on this website.QuoteThat would piss me off no end; my attention is worth a lot to me, and I don't like others wasting it. That's why I am finally blocking some time-vampire posters and their threads.If my attention is requested, then have thecourtesyofspending your timetelling me my in a PM.It would be a great shame if too an expert was tagged so many times that they decided not to contribute.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 05:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 04:20:59 pmTo you. I have already said I find it distracting and annoying, and even described a couple of patterns I could use to annoy others if I was inclined towards trolling.Are you saying I'mlying?Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 04:42:30 pmDistorted? No, tggzzz was on point. You, on the other hand,areputting words in my mouth by claiming tggzzz's response was distorting mine.The correct response on your behalf would have been toask me, not claim you know what I mean.Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 04:42:30 pmI'm uncertain.You see, because tggzzz quoted me, I could easily respond and raise the point; if I disagreed with how I was quoted, I could respond and clarify.You, however, simply assumed you knew better what was going on in my mind, and assumed your understanding of my post was superior to tggzzz's.If I wasn't reading carefully, I could even have missed you were describing your understanding of what I wrote as the factual one, which is definitely not okay. That is exactly why quoting exists, to avoid that situation.Which one of you is engaging in "very bad style" right now?More importantly, what kind of an understanding will others reading this thread get from the topic, and our (the three of us) interaction?In any case, I do find it interesting you do not see any downsides to the mention notification, and even claim it is "unobtrusive" after I explicitly said I find it distracting, and described possible risks to it. Why do you choose to ignore those points, and simply go on with the discussion as if they were not raised at all?I consider that social manipulation, but I do not believe for a second you do it on purpose. I firmly believe you believe you are behaving in a mutually respectful and beneficial way,because this is the accepted behavioural pattern in "neomodern" society, what with its enforced use of gender pronouns, socialist liberalism, and everything right of Stalin being "far right".It is exactly because I feel you do not do this from malice but only from good intentions, that I am so interested in your responses and assertions here. If I knewwhy, I might be able to formulate my points clearer (and hopefully shorter!), you see.As to emotions, I am feeling zero animosity toward anyone wrt. this topic, and only find it interesting and worthwhile to discuss. It is these small things that change the nature of communities, without anyone actually intending to do so. (Just consider my reasons for not participating at StackOverflow/StackExchange, even though I'm kinda-sorta addicted to problem-solving.) It might look like a tiny, insignificant thing now; yes.The only thing I am annoyed about is that this does look like a situation I've been in too many times: trying to explain a risk and a danger scenario of a feature/behaviour others see as neat/new/interesting, only to have my argument completely ignored. After it goes tits up, several times roughly along the same lines I described, they dare claim to my face that "nobody sane could have predicted it", as if I was by definition "not sane".The best option here would be to disable the notifications for everyone, until SMF provides the option for each member to disable the notifications from mentions. I've already described a couple of highly negative behavioural patterns it enables, so anyone pooh-poohing this "worry" really needs to explainwhythey believe an easy tool for trolling would not be used for trolling, against all the proof across every online forum and online social media.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 05:25:13 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 04:42:30 pmI dispute thatI only wished to emphasis my agreement with the part of the post that I quoted, and I paraphrased nothing. The link is there for anybody to unambiguously (unlike mentioning) locate his full message in more detail.If NominalAnimal thinks I have misrepresented his view, he is free to indicate that.EDIT: i see NominalAnimal has already addressed your claim, debunked it, and made correct relevant points about itIf you seriously believe quoting is bad, then stackexchange and edaboard should be more to your liking

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 05:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 05:23:09 pmYeah, I've been through that too. Bloody annoying.If ebastler hasn't already experienced it in one form or another, I would be surprised.Interesting, but unsurprising, to see that you have the same opinion of stackexchange as I do. IMNSHO good for answering questions like "which button do I press to squirdle the floogle", crap for subtle conversations.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 06:03:38 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 27, 2024, 05:25:13 pmOh boy! And this from someone who creates a huge fuss when I pick the specific thing I am commenting on and quote that, leaving out the irrelevant stuff. *Context*, don't forget, and you did indeed leave out a huge amount in that one.'SOk, I'm not going to keep on at this, but a classic 'do as I say, not as I do' was too hard to pass up

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 06:21:32 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 05:23:09 pmWhere did you write that? I must have missed it. Maybe your posts weretoodifferentiated and detailed.Anyway, I'll rest my case. I can certainly live without a fully working mention menchanism and wouldn't want other forum members to suffer from one.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 06:35:36 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 06:21:32 pmIn reply #40, or 16 messages previous to your one:Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 10:19:27 amI am still interested in the reasons for your opinions, because I know the difference is not in any way malicious on either side, and it reveals to me things I do not understand about other people. The opinions themselves don't interest me, but the reasons behind them do, intensively.I in no way want to cause you to leave the discussion. I can understand that my style is confrontational and not "professional"/"nice" or even acceptable at times, but underneath all that really is a honest pursuit of understanding.Also, I admit, I only realized the negative patterns later, after hearing offline that a common way to "troll" others on various sites that allow both upvoting and downvoting is to upvote, wait a while for the recipient to be notified, then change the upvote to a downvote, in the hopes that it will make the target "sad". (I can see psychologically why that works, being based on the ol' fairness thing, with the upvote notification giving the recipient a feeling of appreciation, only to have it turn into a downvote, a, giving the double-whammy of a bait-and-switch dopamine kick turned into a "diss". I think it is just low, and don't want to see that pattern emerge here too. In particular, mentioning someone in a disparaging post exactly because it makes it likelier the disparaged member will see the post, even if later moderators delete the post.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 06:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 27, 2024, 06:03:38 pmMy objection to clipping is when it is used to distort the statement, frequently in order to create a strawman argument. I think we can both agree that strawman arguments are A Bad Thing.You will note that Nominal Animal has already explicitly stated that (1) my comments are "on the point", and (2) taken ebastler to task for his response (see below).Hence I don't see any basis for what you wrote.Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 05:23:09 pm

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 06:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 06:35:36 pmBut I will drop out of the discussion here. No bad feelings, nothing personal. But seeing how intense you and tggzzz get about the "mention" concept, I don't need the agitation and aggravation from trying to "defend" it. And, as mentioned before, my feelings in favor of it are not anywhere as strong as your feelings against it.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 07:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 27, 2024, 06:03:38 pmWell, we're not perfect, and occasionally pointing it out and accepting it as a fact is probably healthy. When "me fail", I do feel the embarrassment pretty intensely, but I do also enjoy the laugh at my own expense, how silly and stupid I can be. I do hope others will laugh at me too when I make such errors.Keeps me grounded, I think, and it is always good to smile a bit. I assume the same applies to most others, tggzzz and yourself included.I for one am assuming good faith on part of everyone participating in this thread. I see that we're pretty divided, with one set (including myself) seeing only/mostly the negatives, one set describing what they like but not commenting on the negatives, and one set basically observing the discussion. Am I a Negative-Nelly for demanding attention towards the risks/downsides rather than the positives mentioned? I don't know, but I do seem to lean that way. Some do like the feature, it seems, and while it baffles me as to why and how, I do accept it as a cold hard fact and am not trying to change anyones opinion.Any decisions will be made by Dave et al., of course, and I'm not sure this discussion will sway their choice any.Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 06:55:43 pmHm. Feelings? Agitation? I am very poor at conveying those in written English, so I'm not sure that 1) the feelings I'veunintentionallyconveyed here in my posts are real, or that 2) even if real and correctly interpreted, they actually matter at all. (The stuff that I intentionally convey is usually humour, often self-deprecating; when I convey true anger/disappointment/frustration/negative feelings, I typically use swear words.)As I see the situation now, there are users who like the feature, some users who find it annoying, and a couple of possible scenarios how the feature could be misused annoying members and possibly having them stop participating. (I'm not referring to myself! Like I said, I personally already have workarounds lined up.)I'd love to see an argument balancing those somehow, or at least acknowledging both sides; and morover, comparing them to real world examples. The onesIcan come up with are all negative, but that may be because my attention focus is naturally oriented that way; a built-in bias. And that is exactly why I so much like to and appreciate discussing things with people who disagree with me, if they are willing to explain their reasons/reasoning and not just state their opinions 'take it or leave it' -fashion.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 07:40:09 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 27, 2024, 07:23:24 pmLook, I originally brought up this topic in the "News/Suggestions/Help" section out of curiosity. I had noticed a "mention" indicator in my profile for the first time, looked up the relevant post, and wondered how that "@name" mention was created. (It does not work from my account.) I was not aware of this older thread.I have explained a use case there where I would find mentions helpful. I have also explained that I find the notification very unobtrusive and have shown in screenshots what it looks like. I really don't have more to say and argue about this.The "mention" mechanism useful in my view, but it is obviously not a necessity. If (some) others find it intolerable, then let's disable it, since the side effects outweigh the benefits.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 07:56:40 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 06:55:43 pmI'm interested in understanding three things about any new mechanism/technology. I listen to the proponents' arguments to determinewhatbenefitsdoes it givewhat is thecost(money, learning curve, speed, space,...)what are thealternative waysof achieving the benefitsFor mentions, the benefits appear minor at best - no more than syntactic sugar or chrome plating. Some of the costs are minor (e.g. how notifications are displayed), but some are potentially major, especially subtle changes in the atmosphere of this forum towards that of other unpleasant timewasting sites. And there are existing ways of getting the benefits. So overall from my perspective the negatives outweigh the positives.That technique has served me very well in my career, enabling me to avoid investing in shiny new transient toys, but still jumping on seriously good long-term opportunities.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 01:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 07:40:09 pmAh, okay! I fully understand your position, then.Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 07:40:09 pmThat's okay too! Although, you could have mentioned you haven't considered any possible downsides, becausesilenceis the absolute hardest response to understand and evaluate correctly.(As an aside, veering into general discussion mechanisms: participants simply remaining silent about possible errors or omissions is a very negative, destructive pattern. Even though it stings me a lot, I try to make sure I don't do that. Seethisfor an example a bit over a year ago. The value of this may be low-ish for participants, but very high for anyone reading the thread as an non-participant: it will help them evaluate more accurately what is technically correct and what is not, so the data they form their opinion on is more reliable/factual/useful. In technical discussions and in scientific publications, this kind of 'brutal honesty' is a necessity for the results to be valid, no matter how awkward/uncomfortable socially. Using a pseudonym in such discussions helps a lot, because the same is obviously not good in a workplace environment: admitting any mistakes ever can be a career suicide in some fields, especially if dealing with customers. This is my current understanding based on running a company, then switching to scientific research, and participating in dozens of different types of projects.)Quote from: ebastler on February 27, 2024, 07:40:09 pmMy suggestion would be to disable it until each member can disable the notification of mentions, or, if possible, just disable the notification only.That is, the @ -syntax turning into a link to the target users profile in a post, with the current username completion mechanism in the post editor, is perfectly fine. Having them show up in the separateProfile>Mentionsis okay, too. That is similar to howThankscurrently work.The contention is about whether a new mention should cause the referred to memberalwaysget a notification of it, in the form of having the number of new mentions asProfileat the top of the page.If mention notification (next to theProfilebutton) is made optional –– compare to PM controls! ––, have the moderators post in Supporters Lounge about the feature, and that if misused, report such posts (perhaps with keywords "mention trolling"). Describe the three most likely negative patterns, i.e. mentioning someone just to say their response was bad/insufficient/wrong/didn't answer the question; mentioning someone just in the hope that they might answer a beginner question (especially for homework-type questions!); and mentioning someone (to generate the notification) but then modify the post to remove the mention, in the hopes that it causes the mentioned member to get the notification but not see it in the target message and "worry" about what it was about.(I am not sure if the negative patterns should be mentioned in the posting guidance for new posters. If at all, then only in passing, as in "Misusing this for annoying members or trying to rope them into answering your question is considered trolling, and can get your account banned." No need to tell trolls the tools they can use for trolling.) (Yes, I am aware that this thread is in the General Technical Chat forum, but I expect it to get buried in the avalanche quite soon, so will only be discovered via forum and web searches.)I just wish I could express these things clearer and more concisely, and in the first post, instead of incrementally refining via multiple posts. Very few people will actually read my wall-of-text posts, and I'm not sure Dave and the moderators even have the time to, even if they were interested in the content.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 01:40:32 pm
content: QuoteWhy does it need disabling? No-one uses it so disabling would have zero effect at the potential cost of breaking something.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 04:45:26 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 28, 2024, 01:40:32 pmWhy wait until it is misused? It is not working correctly for all users, either. For most users, within a post the mentions do not change into links, but when such a post is quoted, they do.Compare to being proactive wrt. spammers. You generally don't want to just remove spam messages, you want to prevent them before they happen. I'm applying a similar logic for this feature here.I would prefer to keep the useful aspects (i.e., disable only the new mention count next to theProfilebutton) while discarding the risky or unwanted (by some) aspects, but that would mean additional work.Just leaving it as-is is the easiest option, but it can bite later on if misused (and I've described how).The next easiest option is to remove the mentions module, entirely disabling the operation. It is only built-in in the next version of SMF, 2.1; this is 2.0.19 as of 2024-02-28.Fixing the behaviour so it works for all users and does not have the annoying, potentially misused features, would require the most work, editing the SMF mentions module itself.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 04:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 28, 2024, 01:40:32 pmThe unpleasant consequences have already been explained, several times. "SecurityCivil behaviour through obscurity" is always a poor proposition.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 05:00:08 pm
content: All I see is straw men, imagined risks, with easy defenses, and poor excuses not to use them.Leave it in.Tim

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 07:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 28, 2024, 05:00:08 pmI don't see straw men arguments.There are too many solid very unpleasant counterexamples elsewhere for complacency.The defences against some aspects are easy, but you can't ensure good taste.The reasons not to use them are good.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 07:29:38 pm
content: Dude. The solution to literally every single little thing you've raised here, is... just kindly ask the admins, they'll clean it up.If someone's abusing the platform...they're abusing the platform,it doesn't matter how. Banhammer. That's the end-all be-all to misbehavior. No making-oneself-a-victim, no political intrigue, no imminent invasion of communism.The worst possible thing you've even imagined is a, like, first someone would need to either create an army of puppet accounts, hack existing accounts, or find a password bypass exploit; and all just to target one individual with incessant @-ing, like, how self-absorbed does one have to be to think this would actually happen to them--? Obviously, such access would be quickly sold to spammers, the forums polluted with junk posts, no one's even going to look at the tag mechanism. Remember that such access goes well beyond this forum, and would affect all SMFs in the world; that's a big attack surface, and a big spamming opportunity if it sticks.Or at worst, the whole spampocalypse happens, and they do look at the tag system, and tag literally everyone on the member list. You're not a victim, everyone is.Either way, you're talking existential nuclear war on the forum as a whole, the @-system is a completely irrelevant piece of the puzzle, and the forum would be locked or shut down and restored from backups, until such time as the holes can be patched. It's a DDoS for everyone, not some measly "My Messages " alert? Give me a fuckin' break, really?!If you have a readability issue, or sensory processing or whatever, that's fine and understandable; it's also up to you, say to craft a CSS that diminishes or hides such annoyances. If enough users find such annoyance, perhaps integrate them into the plugin -- the correct venue is the SMF people themselves, ask them -- we have very limited ability to customize things here, as I understand it.Tim

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 08:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 28, 2024, 07:29:38 pmEr, stop hyperventilating

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 09:45:57 pm
content: There is a reason theThank userdoes not generate active notification to the author of the thanked post. Currently, mentioning another user using the @ -mechanism does.Why should the reasoning behind the behaviour of the thanks mechanism be different for the mentions mechanism? Goose vs. gander and all.Thanking was already a subject Dave started a thread for. Why should the mention mechanism be any different?If you think this is a strawman, I don't think you know what a strawman argument actually is.Or would you prefer a Thanks also generated an active notification and an easier to find list of your thanked posts? I'm sure it would caress your ego, but I don't think it would help with respect to the quality of discussions, which seems more important than ego stroking to Dave, the owner, here.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 10:23:51 pm
content: So, hyperbole aside, a more reasonable take:Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 28, 2024, 09:45:57 pmWell yeah, you get some stats on your account, if that floats your boat, there you have it, you can check it any time, sure.But then what's a "mention" for? To draw attention, obviously.The only meaningful argument, that I've taken in at least, is that it's a (currently unreliable) substitute for PMing someone. This is a correct take, I would say.It serves the social function of being an in-public announcement of such; a beacon as it were. Which, doesn't really mean anything, but I guess if the tag-ee is a no-show in the thread afterwards, that can be understood as messaging a more active disinterest than their simple absence would be. Or at least, it would be if it worked reliably, but since it doesn't, it...really doesn't mean much of anything as it stands.The main value, then, is simply to relieve the pressure of composing a personal message. It's more impersonal, just a tap on the shoulder, nothing more. Low information, low priority, simple and easy. It's also, I guess, more persistent: PMs are deletable, mentions aren't (actually, are they ever? that's a bit of a clutter issue, and not one the viewer can address, as mention-ing posts aren't editable by others).And anything beyond that, is simply normal interaction. If someonemeansto pester you, they can do it anyway, whether posting in every thread in existence, PMing, finding other contact information if present -- and the remedy is equally identical: ask mods/admins, or law enforcement for that matter (online harassment is harassment in most any jurisdiction).What in this am I missing? How is it that I have not perceived an active harm from this underutilized and poorly known function? Please tell me. How could I possibly be abused by it, in such a way that future admin action is not a just remedy? (e.g. ban offenders, just remove the plugin entirely,it's just a plugin, why are there whole threads on this I can't even--)QuoteBecause the point is to get ones' attention..? I'm not sure what else to make of it. Like, I have a "Mentions" section in my profile, it currently has all of exactly two instances for all time, and they are links to posts in threads. Clearly they are there to direct my attention, if I should so choose to view them.It certainly doesn't do any good as a number-goes-up game. Is that how you see it--?It's not like views, comments or retweets; those mechanisms are meaningless here. Also whether anyone does, or should, take stock of those variables, is another matter, but they are generally engagement and therefore reflect the spread of content. Threads show views, that's about all that you can hope for here (though whether they're unique users or repeat visits, would be another matter).I could imagine value in cross-referencing certain threads, but as no one has interest in doing that, like, y'know, at all, as it is, there's hardly any purpose in compiling links and back-links into a web of knowledge on given subjects. Not to mention the lack of editability for users other than authors; a wiki this is not. (And, again, even less collective interest in managing a wiki.)QuoteThe strawman is more in regards to tggzzz's imagined catastrophe, which it seems even hyperbole isn't enough to jar them into actually thinking about it, sadly?Tim

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 10:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 28, 2024, 09:45:57 pmThere is? And yet there is a thanks count and all that stuff. Nevertheless, thanks are a lot different to tags and take much, much less effort to spam.Really, I fail to see a problem. Worst case, if someone should take to annoying someone else they'd have to post a zillion messages to do it, and the catastrophic result of that would be... a fairly large number you got to go looking for at the bottom of a menu.I am trying not to laugh. And failing

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 11:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 28, 2024, 08:51:39 pmSeems ironic after you got all worked up about strawman arguments.Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 28, 2024, 09:45:57 pmI use a forum with a Thank notification feature, and its a complete non-issue. Its just a number at the top you can click on if you desire to (similar to what soldar showed).Itencouragesuseful/quality posts if anything, because it shows you that people found what you posted of some value.Not a fan of how Youtube implements the functionality though (where it shows up along side replies, it should be able to be easily ignored).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 06:46:03 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 27, 2024, 08:28:36 amLate to the party.....Mentions/tagging works okay as it is and just checked mine to find a half dozen old ones.IMO it needs enhancement so that a refresh of any forum page should show any new Mention flag, maybe on your Profile tab.Expanding your Profile will then show the flag against the Mentions tab.^^^All similar to how we are notified of PM's.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:30:35 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 28, 2024, 11:38:32 pmJust so. Implementation and the all-importantcultureof how such mechanisms are used are very site dependent.The thanks mechanism on this website has been devalued by one (or more?) poster that thanks every response in his many many threads - even responses that call him an idiot! (Does that poster know about mentions?)Occasionally someone posts a suggestion about one other mechanism they have seen on other sites and think is "neat". Fortunately the mods/owner are well aware of the significant problems with "anti-thanks" a.k.a. "downvoting".Given the unobtrousive nature of the current implementation of mentions on this site, my main objections are that I want clear indication of what points are being discussed, not the individuals.I four mentions against my name:One of them says "I understand what you mean, but...", without it being clear which post(s?) they are/aren't agreeing with.Another asks a comprehensible self-contained question (fine) about a post that directly and unambiguously answers contains the answer (unimpressive). If they had quoted my post that would have been obvious - and the post probably wouldn't have been made!Another says "is this what you mean?" without stating which of the four points I had made they are questioning!The last is in this thread, and can be discountedHence experience clearly shows than mentions - as used so far on this site - are "suboptimal" (i.e. lousy), and that quoted points are better.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:50:34 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 28, 2024, 10:23:51 pmNo, the issue is the active notification: that on every page, next to theProfilebutton at the top of the page, you will get a count of notifications you have not checked yet. You get nothing like that for Thanks.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 28, 2024, 10:23:51 pmMany people do not seem to understand that it is not easy toignorethings for those who have a strong conscientious personality trait. For example, the number of unread emails, PMs,or mentions, will bug them. For those without, or with only a weak or moderate conscientious personality trait, it is very easy to ignore them, and they just do not see any problem with presenting such counts to all users. This is why it is important to understand that just because it does not botheryou, does not mean it should not botheranyone.I have a strong conscientious personality trait. Unread emails, PMs, text messages, and missed phone calls bug me. On the other hand, I'm very, very good at finding and spotting bugs in code, and understanding the underlying mechanisms in complex systems. I do not remember anything by rote, I integrate what I understand, because I feel I have to work at it that way. It all ties together, you see: the trait has both positives and negatives. The trait is neither useful nor not-useful, neither good nor bad, as it varies from situation to situation.(That said, I have considered disabling the active pop-up (via client-side modification using a browser extension) for unread PMs, because the count next to theMy Messagesbutton is notification enough. Because I can see how useful it is for those without a strong conscientious trait, I will not suggest removing it.)Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 28, 2024, 10:23:51 pmYes, like say a card in the mail inviting you somewhere.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 28, 2024, 10:23:51 pmYou obviously do not have the conscientious trait. One with a conscientious trait would be compelled to respond, or actively (meaning think about and then decide to) ignore the invite. It is definitely not "not anything".A better argument is to compare the three facilities: private messages, thanking, and mentions.Private messages can be disabled. The count and list of thanked posts are available if one is interested, but not listed on every page.As currently implemented, the number of mentions one has not yet checked are listed on every page (next to the Profile button), and cannot be disabled.See the disparity?The count itself is not the game. The game is that "you should not have any unchecked mentions, so you need to go read the posts where someone has mentioned you". I believe this is a negative pattern, because you should not be allowed to draw someone into a discussion thread like that, without providing them the context.A rough equivalent would be for other members to be able to push their posts to specific members, so that in their board views, they'd have a list of messages "recommended" by others for that member specifically to read.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 28, 2024, 10:23:51 pmI was waiting for that: social pressure. "This is the current world, so deal with it."No, it is not. When you mention someone in a discussion, you don't actually send them a postcard saying that you mentioned them in a discussion.When you invite someone to a discussion, you don't just tell them "Come, this discussion involves you", you need to tell them why, provide a bit of context, or they will think you are an asshole. (Only assholes wave others to come to them across a crowd, too; normal people go to the waved person instead. The waving is a "power move", a social tactic, usually only done by a "higher-up" to an "underling". In the next shindig, do that to your boss and see how they react.)Thus, the "mention" mechanism as it stands, is an asshole way to try and drag others to a discussion.It is NOT a normal interaction pattern. The non-asshole normal interaction pattern would be to PM them, giving them the context, and telling why the PM'd member might be interested in participating in the discussion, just like you would in real life.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 28, 2024, 10:23:51 pmBecause you don't care that some people are different than you, and assume that if they are, they must be wrong or need to fix themselves, I guess.Or you haven't read the reasoning in previous messages. Or you haven't thought about it enough. How should I know? You have only asserted that those arguments are "strawmen" and "imagined" and "easily defended" and "poor excuses". You know, opinions asserted as facts, using social pressure (emotionally negative descriptors) with zero logic or reasoning.That said, I do agree I could be wrong here. It's just that to find out, I need logic and reasoning, not asserted opinions.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:56:57 am
content: To repeat: I have no problems working around the mechanism. The question is, how will the mechanism affect discussions, and participation in discussions? Participation by members with similar personality traits as myself, but not the workarounds I have?(Uh, assuming that you consider the participation of members like me a positive, that is. It is debatable, too.)Mechanisms intended for a specific purpose rarely work out that way in real life. Humans do what humans do, and I think it would be best to consider that and the possible negative long-term effects first. Such a discussion was had about Thanks, too.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 10:13:27 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 29, 2024, 09:30:35 amI don't think it has. It's just devalued for that user, but elsewhere it is as meaningful as the person giving thanks wants it to be. It is not a currency, after all, but simply a way to mark a comment for the poster's attention (and, even then, the intent has to be assumed).Despite your aversion to 'egoboos' and the like, I think that responses to posts are important. Why bother typing profound stuff in when you don't know if anyone even reads it, never mind agrees or disagrees. So in that context a simple way to show that you find the post useful (in a thinking sense) would encourage the poster, whereas a complete lack of feedback will see them eventually give up. I realise that stuff like up and down voting can be abused on both sides, but some kind of indication that one is conversing in a way that other people can engage with really is important. The hard part is finding the balance, and here that seems to be the obtuse and opaque 'thanks' system.The user you point at merely uses thanks to show that he has read the posts. They don't actually mean "thank you! (for something or other)". The issue you have is not the thanks per se, it is that the poster doesn't use them in the way you would, or the way you think they should. They problem is thus your narrow view of acceptable use (for a woolly and unspecified function).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 10:22:11 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 29, 2024, 09:50:34 amThose are sensible and well-argued points.I'll emphasise the "social pressure 'deal with it'", not caring about others being different, and (presumably) not reading/understanding the points that have been made.Dave Packard had some very good principles (his11 simple rules) addressing that..."Think first of the other fellow. This is THE foundation—the first requisite—for getting along with others. And it is the one truly difficult accomplishment you must make. Gaining this, the rest will be “a breeze.”""Respect the other man’s personality rights. Respect as something sacred the other fellow’s right to be different from you. No two personalities are ever molded by precisely the same forces.""Give sincere appreciation. If we think someone has done a thing well, we should never hesitate to let him know it. WARNING: This does not mean promiscuous use of obvious flattery. Flattery with most intelligent people gets exactly the reaction it deserves—contempt for the egotistical “phony” who stoops to it."In this context, compare mentions with quotes: egotistical vs considered and explained"Try to understand the other person. How would you react to similar circumstances? When you begin to see the “whys” of him you can’t help but get along better with him."

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 10:41:56 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 29, 2024, 10:13:27 am"Bad money drives out good". None of us has any clue how many of my 5k8 thanks are worthless.If there was a wayIcould filter out the "idiotic thanks" so thatnobodysaw them, then I would agree with you (and be annoyed that I had to spend time doing it).QuoteErrr. Why do you make those points?Of course responses are important. Currently I've made 19k, gulp.Of course indicating posts useful is important. But...... mentions don't indicate thespecific post.... mentions don't indicate thepoints in a post.... mentions don't indicateintention.... mentions do indicate aperson.That's all suboptimal.QuoteDownvoting/anti-thanks isroutinelyabused on other sites, often with the intention of discouraging individuals.Finding the balance is not something anyindividualcan do. If it was then FarceBook and Twatter would be far less unpleasant places!QuoteWhat makes you so sure?Can you read his mind? (Some people havehypothesisedhe has a mental condition)That isn't a commonly understood definition of "thanking" (insert Humpty Dumpty reference, and stateyourhis definition)In other words, don't project your wishes/presumptions/understanding onto other posters.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 11:40:23 am
content: QuoteCheck out the cat photos section. I am really very sure that the 'thanks' there don't mean "Thank you for posting yet another cat photo". No, they mean stuff like "Nice, isn't that cute!", and "Ha ha ha, that's so funny". And a fair number would be "well I thanked so-and-so and it will look petty if I don't also thank this one".The thanks thing doesn'tmeanthanks of the definition you suggest. It is just a wishy-washy way of negating masses of "I agree", "WHS", and similar content-free follow-ups whilst not actually being up-votes.QuoteEt tu, Brutus.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 01:07:43 pm
content: Good that you haven't anything to say about the other substantive points, and prefer to concentrate on this...Quote from: PlainName on February 29, 2024, 11:40:23 amContext, dear boy, context. My statement is correct in that context.In addition I see you are (unwittingly?) channelling - as I hinted and you snipped - Humpty Dumpty, viz.“I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' ""But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected."When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.""The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things.""The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all.”https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/humpty-dumptyQuoteThat's exactly the kind of thing that Lewis Carroll was parodying/illustrating.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 01:20:05 pm
content: Mentions have a use - attracting a specific user's attention to a post, or indicating which user a reply is directed to, without the need to quote and edit out the irrelevant parts. However once they've done that their purpose is served, so IMHO they should vanish from any user page listing them as soon as that user has visited the post containing the mention. There certainly shouldn't be any 'keeping score' of mentions. Also alerts on mentions should be configurable by the receiver. If that cant be done in the current SMF configuration, then IMHO Dave should disable them as soon as, and as thoroughly as possible.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 03:04:08 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on February 29, 2024, 01:20:05 pmMentions can'treliablyattract a specific user's attention to a topic, unless they plonk themselves in that user's face.Quoting+editing a specific reply is unambiguous, and only very slightly slower than mentioning. That minor delay is a benefit, since it allows for thought and consideration (although the FarceBook/Twatter generation might not realise that). The ambiguity of mentions is an unnecessary disadvantage.QuoteSo long as mentions aren't used, there's no need to make any changes. KISS.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 03:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 29, 2024, 03:04:08 pmEditing quotes for relevance is easy enough on a PC or decent sized tablet paired to a keyboard, but much harder for mobile and touchscreen users.Quote from: tggzzz on February 29, 2024, 03:04:08 pmThe problem is: Mentions *ARE* used, but formerly had no effect (or at least for most users had no effect). Do you propose to ban users for typing "@<username>"?

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 03:46:41 pm
content: I have only read parts of this thread, but seeing this topic i feel compelled to mention XenForo againBecause that has a mention and notification system which i came to like very much in another forum where i am quite active. The system helps me to keep better track.And imporant for many folks here: The notifications are highly customizable. You can turn them off completly, you can turn them off for citations, for mentions, or for "watched" threads.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 03:47:12 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on February 29, 2024, 03:27:49 pmI was waiting for the "I have crap inappropriate equipment that makes life difficult for me, so I want shiny features that make life difficult/unpleasant for you" contention.I've been on the receiving end of that before, elsewhere. I left, because the tone/atmosphere changed by becoming too unpleasant.I will fight against that happening here. tablets and smartphones are OK forconsumingcontent, but crap forcreatingany subtle content beyond mere one-line chit-chat.QuoteBans are impractical and unpleasant. Dissuading people is more pleasant and, hopefully, sufficiently successful.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 03:48:24 pm
content: QuoteYeah! Clearly Farcebook and (sorry, can't think of a derogatory version of X) users outing themselves. Ban hammer's too good for them

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 05:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 29, 2024, 03:48:24 pmTwatter is good enough, and everybody knows what that means. Similarly every electronic engineer knows that HP is now calledAgilentKeysight.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 29, 2024, 03:46:41 pmHell no.While the UI is in some ways better than SMF it fails to properly link old threads you have been active in.SMF is far far better in this regard.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:26:51 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 29, 2024, 07:14:03 pmI have not seen that happen in the forum i am active in. I've been active there for more that 5 years now.Or are you refering to the fact that visting old threads you have read partially at some point, instead of bringing you to where you left, it will open them on page one?As far as i understood the technical admin there, this can be changed in the backend. They set it to 60 days IIRC, but they are a lot larger than the eevblog forum and want to keep the database size in check. But even then: If i get a notification that someone has posted in an old thread, clicking the notification always brings me to the correct post.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 27, 2024, 10:06:17 amOf course there's no way to stop that. Indeed I just did that in my previous post, although it took a little longer. Opting out of notifications is obviously what I meant. I don't see why anyone would complain if they can switch notifications about being tagged off.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 07:54:28 pm
content: QuoteAh, glasshopper, you must be new here

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 29, 2024, 07:26:51 pmOld threads one has posted that have reappeared near the top of a board/forum where a click on the subject doesn't take you to the last post you've read.SMF gets this right whereas XenForo doesn't.https://forum.accurateshooter.com/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 29, 2024, 07:43:14 pmBecause it allows/encourages a lower standard of discpurse, as I have noted (in no order)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-to-tag-someone-in-a-post/msg5363234/#msg5363234https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-to-tag-someone-in-a-post/msg5353361/#msg5353361https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-to-tag-someone-in-a-post/msg5363843/#msg5363843https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-to-tag-someone-in-a-post/msg5359802/#msg5359802and others have noted from their viewpoint.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 09:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 29, 2024, 09:15:38 pmOk, yes, that is what i meant as well.https://xenforo.com/community/threads/read-marking-data-lifetime-days-whats-yours-set-to.58856This can be changed, but supposedly bloats the database if set to a too long timer. No idea why it would bloat XenForo more than SMF, but i would assume this also depends very much on the size of the comunity and the server how noticable this would be.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 29, 2024, 09:50:34 amI was referring to the "thanks", guess that should've been made clearer.QuoteRight, like I said, it's like a PM. So we're in agreement about that?QuoteYou've pulled this one out of context -- it's in the same paragraph as social function; I'm talking about social function.I don't appreciate being told what I'm not. I think you should have some idea... hmm, I wonder how well it really comes through in text, actually; maybe it's diluted by my realism, or you're misreading my realism as lack thereof. Well, if it's any reference point at all... I keep unread messages/emails at zero, and my room is... not clean, but items in frequent use are organized after a manner; an independent observer would see it as a bit messy or chaotic, but that's mainly due to my lack of shelving or other horizontal space on which to organize....I should break down that pile of cardboard boxes some year...Anyway, more to the point, I almost always respond to PMs, mainly because I don't want to give the impression of ignoring someone who's taken the time to reach out personally. I guess whether that's grounded in conscientiousness or another mode of responsibility, isn't clear, but IANAPsych and it sounds like that's at least a facet of it.QuoteYou left out the unread message count, which is also shown on every page (or maybe that's assumed or implicit). So it's working as intended? It draws attention.How else would you suggest to design a feature, where the purpose is to attract ones' attention in response to a prompt?The most innocuous option is to make it an entirely separate page, that one must remember exists, and to check regularly, with no  alert or dialog whatsoever.That will completely leave out the inattentive, lazy, or ignorant (i.e., not accusatory, but those who literally don't know it's even a page or feature).Having a selection of options, so that the end user can tune it to their preference (or disable it entirely if they wish to permanently ignore it*), makes perfect sense.*Disabled PMs, I think? gives an alert that you can't message that person; so there is an immediate feedback, further implying some confidence that the message will be received, if it can be sent at all. This wouldn't make sense in an inline mention. Maybe if there were an expando-box below Attachments where you could ask the system to tag someone and it checks whether they can be tagged, but that's very ungainly for something that really makes the most sense as the casual "hey @foo, what do you think of this?"....But I don't see how we've gotten into 6+ pages drenched with psychology only to say "the plugin is undercooked and needs [these usability features]". Something must be missing? This is way too trivial a conclusion to not have been raised at the start, and simply... acknowledged by everyone else.QuoteThat's a good idea. A sort of "pinned for you" section, but don't call it that because that implies something very different, but anyway, either they decay (drop off) over time, or disappear as you click them (which, I guess is the current behavior too, just from a different page? It's been so long since I've been tagged I don't even know how it decrements).Which could manifest in the "new replies", "show unread", or just plain on its respective (sub)forum, maybe all three (maybe depending on user preference too), where current users are just as likely to see it as any other thread.QuoteI don't think doing that is an assh--Am I an assh--...Maybe I haven't been on large enough teams to experience the full breadth and depth of those interactions -- I have quite intentionally and successfully avoided say office politics, and the authoritarian regimes, and even more generally, narcissistic personalities, they proliferate under, for the most part -- and I have most definitely been in a [almost always technical; for that matter, project-relevant] conversation with someone, and waved/shouted someone else in without including direct verbal contextbecause they're involved in the same project too, and I know this, and that's why I'm inviting their opinion on it; put another way, the context is implicit. And no one's shown visible disgust at being mentioned in this way, granted that if they were busy with some technical task, that active context is broken, and it's not like I make a habit of it. This is just... normal, informal / impromptu meeting stuff, and occasionally socialization.So, I don't think I can say you're wrong about this, as it likely goes beyond my experience, but it almost certainly isn't true completely in general.It could also be Finnish customs are more formal or polite. I know the stereotype is very antisocial and private and independent, which, is just a stereotype of course, but all stereotypes are based in a degree of truth, albeit a distortion or caricature thereof. Perhaps this is a difference to American customs. (Have you spent much time in the US? GB? I forget if you've mentioned before. I certainly haven't spent any time in Europe, so I am ignorant of these things; beyond what English speakers have brought to forums such as this, heh.) So,whereit is true, may also matter.QuoteAnyway, back to mentions -- in this case, it's a link to a post; if the post doesn't have any obvious "in" for you, then, you've spent thirty seconds scanning an entirely missable post, so what, you're going to do that scanning the next half-dozen candidate new threads anyway..? And at best, it's something you didn't see before, and are thankful it was brought to your attention (maybe you missed it as the title wasn't catchy to you, maybe thread drift brought it onto a now-relevant topic, etc.).QuoteAgain, the "strawmen" are more the -- see my previous post.Which... ah, I see what I did; I replied to you specifically, but also drifted back into prior context, whereas one assumes content below the quoted reply is, y'know, in reply to that. I should use delimiters more often -- sorry about that.Yes, I have no issue with your points -- and the missing features above are consistent with your first messages in this thread, for example.The most direct context of my replies in this thread starts here,https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-to-tag-someone-in-a-post/msg5361794/#msg5361794I have little care for this thread overall and mainly came in to poke the nest. Judging by the "thanks", and today's volume of activity, it seems that's been "rewarded" (in whatever sense(s) you choose to read that as, lol).Tim

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 10:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmEr no. A mention is a link to a person, not to a post.Explicit links to posts (and parts of posts) is normal and good.QuoteYou are someone who writes more interesting, sensible, and helpful posts than many on this forum. Hence you would be more likely to be the "target" of mentions than many people.I would expect that "Hey, guru. Gimme an answer" and "Hey friend. I saw this and thought of you" and "Please think about this" would become tedious after a (short?) while.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2024, 11:13:03 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 29, 2024, 07:54:28 pmIf you're even tiny bit referring to anyone like me, you're wrong. I explicitly mentioned that my worries would fully covered if members could switch mention notifications off (so no unchecked notification count next to theProfilebutton; the list underProfile>Mentionsshould stay, as some do find it useful, and it is unobtrusive enough there).(Well, I did also suggest moderators would make a post about it then, telling how it works, and how members could disable the notifications if it annoys them, and perhaps tell new users that trying to rope in members to answer their homework questions is Not Okay. But that's about proactive community management, not about the feature itself.)But, if you were referring to the fact that in any forum, there is always at least one person complaining about any single thing you might choose, even if it was free pizza (pineapple? Eww!), then I say Ha, true.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 12:23:04 am
content: QuoteYes, more that than the other.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 03:31:34 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmItshouldbe like a PM, so each member can control whether they want to deal with it or not, yes.Specifically,Profile>Account settings>Modify Profile:Personal Messaging,Receive personal messages from:allows one to selectAdministrators only, in which case other members won't bother you with PMs. In the same view, one can even enable or disable the popup notification.If you allow personal messages from all members but disable the popup, then unchecked Mentions count and unread PM counts appear in the same way on every page; the former next toProfilebutton, the latter next toMy Messagesbutton.The difference is that one cannot disable the Mentions at all, like one can limit PMs from admins only.Yet, Mentions are unlike a PM, because there is no context. It is a hand-wave from one member to another. TheProfile>Mentionspage contains a list, where the post where the mention appeared to, and the user making the mention are listed. You cannot clear this list, nor edit it in any way, so in that sense they behave like Thanks (Profile,Profile Info>Show Posts>Thanked posts).Considering the prominent position (an entire button on every page) it seems that Mentions are as important as Private Messages, except that like Thanks, they're completely out of control of the mentioned member. In other words, as it stands, members are pushed to act on Mentions by the forum tools, as if they were as important as private messages, but completely out of user control like thanks.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmApologies for that; mea culpa.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmBut each member can disable private messages, so that only site admins can send them.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmDo you want to be prompted and enticed/"forced" to react to the equivalent of a hand-wave across a crowd?I would let the members choose whether they want to see the enticement/prompt or not. Just like I normally react to such come-hither hand-waving by simply waving back and doing something else. If they want me, they can get me and tell me what it is about (i.e. send a PM).It would be even better if that choice was a drop-down selection with a checkbox like PMs have: for those who feel mentions are important, they could get the same popup as for PMs if the checkbox is filled; and the drop-down selection having 'Mentions button', 'No mentions button', 'Mentioned list only under Profile > Show pages ..'.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmExactly.Ithinkthat in the mean time, the feature should be disabled so it won't become a problem. But that is debatable, and others have said to leave it as it is.The danger with leaving it as it is is that it can suddenly become a problem, annoying members and taxing moderators, and that the user tuning options will never be implemented.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmEasy to say in hindsight, but yes, that is the entire issue here.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmYou evil, evil person!It is a horrible idea.Pushing stuff onto others is not a good way to discuss. I for one would leave; that kind of pushy attention-seeking I cannot stomach.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmRight-o. Have you noticed it is easier to do in front of a display or paper diagrams/schematics? Or by lifting your coffee/tea/soda? Context matters.There is no such context on a widely-ranging discussion board like this. You don't know what the target person is doing here.Perhaps it would be more accurate to describe a Mention notification as leaving a post-it-note on a colleagues/friends/cow-orkers door/desk/display telling them to go and read the comic pinned to the break room wall.(Almost three decades ago, I was an IT support person for a while. The "best" bug report I ever got was a post-it note on my door stating "One of the classroom computers is broken. Please fix." I never found which computer it referred to, as they all worked just fine when I checked them. Every single one. It was pretty frustrating.)Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 29, 2024, 10:05:41 pmNot formal – we call everybody by their first name everywhere except in the military where we use last names only (or rank and last name, if formal); and nobody uses titles or honorifics at all – but very careful to not intrude on others. Seethis Youtube videofor an example of a Black Friday sales rush when the shops open. But it is quite possible, yes.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 03:59:34 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 29, 2024, 10:41:05 pmAre we seeing the same thing? ...Do you have a different template/style set or something and it doesn't adapt properly? Something like that? Surely I can't be the only one with a working(?) list.The link goes to the post containing the mention,https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/emc-test-with-480mhz-peak/msg4981984/#msg4981984The username is also a link, going to the profile.If it'sreallynot working right then that's quite worrying... besides the lack of user preferences.QuoteI don't mind answering questions, indeed I go out of my way to answer things at times. That said, it seems people are more considerate than you expect; or I'm less well known than you think. I probably get a message every couple of weeks, and maybe... half?! the time it's new users versus someone from a thread I posted in.Tim

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 09:58:26 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on March 01, 2024, 03:59:34 amThe mention is of the form "@T3sl4co1l" followed by nothing.Focus is on a person.A link to a post is of the form "Quote from: T3sl4co1l on Today at 11:05:41 am" followed by the post.Focus on the information.QuoteIt works as designed, which IMHO is not rightQuoteMy posting behaviour is similar to yours. I enjoy helping "random" people to do things they didn't believe they could do, and nudging people away from silly things.The problem with mentions is that it makes it too easy for unthinking/selfish/etc people to force concentration on people rather than what they are saying. See also Nominal Animal's points. People coming from FarceBook and Twatter will tend to import comms behaviour they use over there. Shudder.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 10:43:47 am
content: Could some kind soul mention me so I can have a first-hand idea of how annoying the notification may be, please.(That seems to me to be the simplest way, the alternative being to turn into a guru and await new users seeking enlightenment - if it hasn't already happened in 10 years I fear this thread may have crumbled before there is success)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 10:48:19 am
content: @PlainName so you don't feel left out.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 10:52:21 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 29, 2024, 09:43:38 pmI doesn't appear to be a very rational argument to me.Anyone could easily write @tggzz in their post, the only difference would be the forum software having the ability to automatically create a profile link and notifying you, unless you have it switched off. It seems irrational to think everyone is going to suddenly start playing up, if such a feature were introduced. In reality, it will make little difference to those who have notifications disabled.

author: metebalci
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 10:58:33 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 01, 2024, 10:43:47 am@PlainNametest

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 11:29:54 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 01, 2024, 10:48:19 amThank youWell, that's interesting. I get a  for my profile, which might be irritating if I preferred to have a clean plate. Not hard to deal with unless there is a mention every time I logged on, though (and that's rather unlikely for everyone except the mods and Dave, I reckon).There is also a tickbox to enable email notification of mentions, so I presume I could get an email just like I do for PMs and additions to threads I am in.Edit:the tagger's username seems to be somewhat confused!No, I failed to read to the end. It's correct, but has missed a mention. That might explain why some users think it is not working.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 11:39:16 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 01, 2024, 11:29:54 amIt is.Go back and look at my post where I Copy/Paste your handle and unlike the mention from metebalci, mine was not hyperlinked.

author: metebalci
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 11:41:43 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 01, 2024, 11:39:16 amFor some (many?) people, at symbol does not create a proper mention (with link etc.) at the moment. It works for me, I dont know why. I saw@tautech's mention of@PlainNamewas not working so I posted another one.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 12:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 01, 2024, 10:52:21 amYou seem not to have readallthe points.I agree that not many people will suddenly misbehave, and that the notifications are (currently?) relatively unobtrusive.Even if that doesn't happen, the quality of discourse will be lowered bychoosing to reference people, which I find lacking in tasteavoiding referencing exactly what they said, thus being unclear and ambiguous. That isalready happening, as I have noted.Fundamentally I dislike the way FarceBook and Twatter actively encourage superficial "engagement", and actively discourage considered exchange of subtle arguments. They do that using mentions and preventing quoting.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 12:47:11 pm
content: @tggzzzThat's a bit presumptuous of you. On the contrary. I have read all of the points. I just disagree with them.1) That's just your opinion that referring to people is lacking in taste.2) It makes sense, rather than quoting, if someone's made a short post and it should be obvious, when I refer to them, I'm referring to their most recent reply.3) Implementing tagging will not turn this site into a social media platform. The quoting facility will still remain and we have a completely different user base.I also find unnecessary quoting takes up more space. It can make make the thread harder and more time consuming to read a thread. This thread is a classic example of this.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 12:52:30 pm
content: Quote from: metebalci on March 01, 2024, 11:41:43 amBoth of yours worked. I wonder if it's an ad-blocker thing, or the editor used - I think there are two ways to get into the editor when quoting.@PlainName - see if I can annoy myself[edit: not a chance]

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 12:54:07 pm
content: Can I mention myself?@xrunnerNo? ... damn!I wanted to use it to help me remember certain posts of mine because I have a bad memory. I was going to buy that memory supplement Previgen. The problem is I can't remember to buy it!

author: metebalci
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 12:57:02 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 01, 2024, 12:52:30 pmI dont see tautech's original mention as a link. Do not look at my quote of tautech's post, if I quote a non-working mention (no link) it becomes a working one (link). Your mention of yourself is also not working. Mine will probably work,@metebalci.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 01:02:21 pm
content: Quote from: metebalci on March 01, 2024, 12:57:02 pmMight have to do with the Quick Reply?If you have that enabled it has a few features otherwise not present. I recall there was something enabling you to only quote marked text passages for example.Interestingly whatever script does it's magic also looks like it looks into the quotes. In PlainNames original post, the @ was not reformatted into a mention, but in Metembalci's answer it was.@RanaynaTest via Quick Reply

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 01:02:57 pm
content: @RanaynaAnd another Test with the normal Reply Editor on a separate PageOk, does it in both for me. No notification appearing anyway, but the @ was automatically converted to a link to the profile.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 01:08:57 pm
content: QuoteThis. Just quote the relevant bit, and even that isn't necessary if there is no intervening diversion. We're not all so stupid that we can't work out what it's about, or are unable to scroll up if we need more context.In fact, some of the wall-of-text posts in this thread are perfect examples of the art. Take, for instance,Nominal'smulti-point comment (which I choose merely because it's the last example at this point). The entire (I think - too much to check, sorry) post that is a comment to is quoted, which conforms to the full-quote agenda, but each of the subquotes and corresponding response could be hived off to a separate post and not lose any meaning or context. The response is for that specific text being quoted and should be read as such.In contrast, thealternativewall of text I find just wasting space. Where is the specific thing being responded to? Which of the many parts is relevant? Dunno, so I just read the response (once I've found it) and make up what the context might be.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 01:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on March 01, 2024, 01:02:57 pmIt's subtly different. See the attachement, which shows the first one as a link if I hover over it, but the second has a hyperlink underline, so the browser knows they are different things. In what way I haven't a clue, though.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 01:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 01, 2024, 09:58:26 amUm? It's immediately followed by text? There is a tag, and a message; context.Quote from: ricko_uk on July 26, 2023, 09:47:03 pmIf that's "focus on the person" then I sure as hell don't know what else we're doing right this instant? I put your name in the top of this post, clearly I'm talking to you, focus is on a person.Is your material complaint literally just thatthe mere aesthetics of the link aren't "right"?That it's simply not the text used in the quotation box? I still cannot figure out what you're actually complaining of...Again, if someone chooses to post an extremely-low-information post... that's not my fault? That's theirs for being shite at communication -- or, more likely, intentionally not trying; but even more likely still, trying out a feature they just don't understand yet, and have the opportunity to learn about.Tim

author: metebalci
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 01:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on March 01, 2024, 01:02:21 pmI think we need information from forum admins to figure this out. I was not aware of the problem,@ebastlerhas raised it to my attention. I tried different things and it was always working for me and not for ebastler. I did not try disabling quick reply, I am not aware of all options but there is I think nothing directly related to mentions. If it is due to quick reply, it is still a problem.Quote from: Ranayna on March 01, 2024, 01:02:21 pmThanks for making an example of a point I raised earlier, it is not difficult to make a mistake when writing a username if there is no mention with auto-complete.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 01:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 01, 2024, 01:12:07 pmThat underline might be on me. I fiddled around with the WYSIWYG Editor which i normally have disabled here. It might have converted the link once i edited the Post.Hence another test with the separate Editor, non-WYSIWYG, which i will not edit afterwards.@RanaynaTesttest

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 04:12:46 pm
content: Yep, that isn't underlined.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 04:40:51 pm
content: Quote from: metebalci on March 01, 2024, 11:41:43 amCame through fine, thank you.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2024, 05:45:57 pm
content: It has to be the editor that's generating the mention's notification. In that reply from tautech there are two tags, both with the requisite hyperlinks, but they don't trigger a notification (nor do they generate a link in the mentions page). So I think it must be the act of making the tag in the editor which does it.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 05:07:26 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 01, 2024, 05:45:57 pmNope. This mentions mod for smf is just a kind of a piece of junk. It includes both a client side editor script and a server side parser that do pretty much the same thing, but only the latter actually has any effect, the former is purely for gui convenience in the wysiwyg.It also includes a permissions system where not everyone seems to be assigned to the group to allow use of mentions, and the implementation is kind of half-assed, which is why:some people don't even see the interface for using '@' for mentions in the editor, because they don't have the permissionbut the bbcode used for mentionsisn'tprotected behind the permission, so anyone can create something that otherwise looks like a mention, but will not send a notificationbut the parser on the server doesn't handle quotes, so someone who is allowed to use mentions quoting someone who was not but used the '@' anyway will convert it to one and send the notificationFurther, it looks like the mod was written/maintained for a month or so in 2014, but hasn't seen any updates since... so any hopes of seeing fixes/improvements/new features seems like a pipe dream. The only improvement likely would be if the admins can either assign (or unassign) everyone to the permission group consistently so at least it's more understandable.Anyway, that's about as much reading of atrocious PHP code as I'm gonna do on my Friday evening, maybe it clears up some of the confusion about why the behavior is so unintuitive.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 06:20:19 am
content: Well, that would explain that.Tim

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 06:35:11 am
content: Ten year old, unmaintained zombie code?*KILL* *IT* *WITH* *FIRE* !!!

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 06:56:56 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on March 02, 2024, 06:35:11 amOne of the other tidbits I noticed poking around it was that the "installer" script appears to patch some of the core smf files with some search/replace scripts that inject new code into them.The uninstallermightknow how to undo that, or it might just break the site, one of those things.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 07:00:43 am
content: Quote from: abeyer on March 02, 2024, 06:56:56 amOr it may know how to do itandstill screw up something else

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 07:07:26 am
content: Quote from: magic on March 02, 2024, 07:00:43 amYou sound like you've used PHP before!

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2024, 07:09:53 am
content: I sound like somebody who has used software before