Advice on cheap Linux computer for my kids - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 09:16:02 pm
content: Hi everyone,I want to replace an old desktop machine that my kids have been using with Ubuntu. I have a few even older CPU's in the basement but I thought it may be a good opportunity to get them something a bit newer but I am hoping to make it as least expensive as possible.After the old desktop died, I have left:1. One VGA monitor2. Keyboard and Mouse (USB)3. Was using a WiFi PCI card adapter, and then later a USB WiFi dongle on the old desktopFirst thought was to buy a RaspBerry Pi 3 and install Ubuntu-Mate on it. I would need an HDMI-to-VGA adapter unless I plan on buying a new monitor (which I'd rather not). The Pi has WiFi built in so that would be all they need to get back to the familiar Ubuntu environment they were previously using (mostly just Chromium browser and a few software packages).I could just wait and scrap together another old PC. Or I could buy them a Chromebook or a refurb'd laptop and wipe it and put Ubuntu on there. I would still need a WiFi card and probably HDMI-to-VGA adapter if I buy a newer PC as it will likely have HDMI output only, and I'm not sure if they have WiFi onboard. I walked into a local computer shop and saw a fair bit of kit but with Windows installed, which I don't need and don't want to pay for. I'd rather get an old machine if feasible.I would appreciate any ideas if you have them. RaspBerry Pi 3 is about $60-70 Canadian in my area. I am not sure even for that price if it is not worth spending a bit more and getting an older refurbished laptop.And the teachers at the kids schools are pressuring the kids to get Chromebooks and bring them to school, which I want to avoid.So one main question is do I go portable, or not? And if I get them something like a small barebones PC/raspPi or clone, then I would need to still be able to use VGA monitor and USB monitor/keyboard and install Linux on it (like Ubuntu). If I get something portable, I'm basically going for a Chromebook or Laptop but I'm worried about the kids (9 and 7) lugging this to school, and how careful they will be with it, so an old refurb may be useful. I could build them a RaspPi3 laptop in a suitcase but that would cost too much.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 09:49:00 pm
content: The honest truth is what do your kids need it for?A raspi zero with a cheap screen can be done good for portable word processing and really basic stuff.Raspi 2/3 is good for youtube and multimedia.For desktop use, Raspi 3 is probably the best option. HDMI to VGA is not TOO expensive, but 60-70CAD is a bit steep.To be brutally honest, 7 and 9 year old doesn't really need a computer at school (I'm 15 and in college and the best I have is an HP Prime graphing calculator when I'm there.)You're the parent, so it's your choice, and I am not demanding you do your children a certain way, but if it were me I would personally give them a desktop and say no computers out of the house unless they need it.If you want to go with a PC, anything late P4 /K8 or later is fine. Try to use whatever old parts you have. Don't go too old, or it gets expensive. You can probably find a cheapie OEM system for pennies. You may even want to check around on craigslist for something that's just trying to be gotten rid of for not too much. Freecycle is an option too if you have that in your area. You may even want to ask someone like freegeek if that's around you (I know they are in Canada) if they have anything they are trying to lose for cheap.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 10:11:59 pm
content: Thanks for the advice... I agree, I don't really want to send them to school with a laptop either. At best, I may get them a cheap Android tablet they can use if they absolutely must for those "computer assignment" school classes (the teachers do ask for BYOD from the kids).For home, the desktop is fine. I found a few refurbished Lenovo's for about $70-90 from Microsoft Authorized Resellers. Honestly I don't even care for Windows, I'll just install a dual-boot with Ubuntu anyways. But I guess if they must use Windows for some reason, it'll be good to have. Given that I already have a monitor, keyboard, mouse... I am not as impressed with a Raspberry Pi option for them as it will end up costing almost as much once I'm done buying a case, power adapter, SD card, HDMI-VGA adapter, etc.I've found quite a few Lenovo T410's for just under $200 in good condition. But I still feel a desktop would work best, considering the one we already were using (from about 2007) was working just fine with Lubuntu and I even had Win XP on it going still on a dual-boot partition. A newer (but still old refurb'd) $70 Lenovo desktop would probably do the job, and wouldn't cost much more than a Pi.What they need it for:- Chromium/Chrome to access Google Docs (the teachers put assignments on there now)- Word Processing/LibreOffice (I can set up my WiFi printer so they can print assignments over network)- Using some learning programs found in Ubuntu distros (math, science, etc).- Scratch programmingPretty basic stuff I would say. No video editing, no music/sound editing, no rendering 3D, no 3D gaming, etc... Nothing fancy. That's why my 10 year old desktop was just fine. I just wish I had a dumpster like Dave has to see what comes around.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 11:02:57 pm
content: Eh, 70-90 dollars still seems a bit steep for me. If you just need that you can use anything that has a 64 bit CPU pretty much (They are all about as powerful).LGA 775 and Socket 754 or newer really. From that range you could probably find something for 50 bucks.But it's your money, computers aren't expensive if you get someone nobody really want, but you can use.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 11:09:52 pm
content: Why don't you take a look on craigslist or local sales on ebay? I sold a decked out Pentium4 for $50 last summer including the monitor. Recently some guys at work bought a pile of Corei5 desktops at an auction for under $10 each and resold them. Fairly powerful desktop PCs just a few years old can be had for peanuts. Older laptops are fairly cheap too, especially the more bulky ones.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 11:45:26 pm
content: 1) What do the kids NEED the computer for?2) What do the kids WANT a computer for?In my opinion, it is never too soon to equip kids with a computer, provided you give them minimum assistance to avoid dangers (pedos, porn, etc.) and a games-only use.A computer is nowadays such an important tool for ANYTHING, that I would really recommend you to get a propper modern PC for them. They will do their homework on them, do research on Wikipedia and Google, learn how to use Word, PowerPoint and Excel. Play games, get a social network with their friends, etc.Also, bear in mind that, like it or not, Windows plays an important role in modern day IT infrastructure, one reason being the fact that many commercial applications are only available for Windows (i.e. professional CAD/CAM/CAE software) or simply are a standard.Enforcing a Linux only policy on kids seems to me a similar thing as enforcing kids to be vegan (sorry if this sounds too harsh). And no, I have nothing against Linux and I do use it regularily.You can buy a decent new PC for 300-500 Euro/US$, even a laptop.A laptop is actually nice because it is cheaper than a PC + monitor and it can be used in the living room, the kitchen, etc. - wherever the parents are. Just explain to the kids that they are not allowed to take the laptop out of the house.Raspberry Pi is nice, the RP3 runs pretty OKish now, but come on: this is not meant to be a full computer replacement. An old PC? Pfff... that sucks. To save you 200 Euro/US$ you are going to make your kids use old OS, old software and experience internet at unbearable slow speeds? Anything under/older than an Intel Core i3 just plain sucks.Again, no offense, just my opinion.Regards,Vitor

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2017, 11:53:25 pm
content: Newegg has plenty of refurbished business PCs for under $100. You might check into that. I don't know if being outside the US would cause a problem buying from them, but maybe a similar source exists in Canada.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 12:07:08 am
content: I second the suggestion for a used business PC. They cost around US $100 and will last at least a couple of years. Teenagers however will want faster PCs with a decent graphics card but even those don't have to be expensive when combined with used business PC. Windows will be hard to avoid for school work and games.

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 12:17:02 am
content: Adding to the chorus of "off-lease/refurb business desktop". Even an average desktop from 5 years ago is going to be vastly more capable than a raspberry pi, especially if it has 4GB of ram or more. None of the weirdness of dealing with a less-mainstream architecture for desktop linux, will almost certainly have VGA, a few dozen GB of disk, etc.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 12:19:53 am
content: I still thing a 100$ PC is overkill for what is needed. A x64 CPU of almost any design is more than capable of browsing the web, doing text editing, and using scratch. I think 50CAD is the top budget for something like this, but it's still your money.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 02:39:46 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 18, 2017, 01:11:17 amThat's why I am not suggesting an ARM processor. I am suggesting an X86_64 processor (Or x64)

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 05:45:32 am
content: I love computing on the cheap...I've gone both routes - raspberry pi and reloading an old system with UbuntuRaspberry zero/Pi3 with Raspbian (or whatever flavor suits you)cost usd from microcenter:$5 pi zero or $30 raspberry pi 3 preferred$5 Case$5 power supply$10 micro sd card (can go cheaper)-----$25-$50 total - you can probably do cheaper of your carful and assuming you can scrounge a keyboard mouse and a hdmi cable. and make use of a tv or spare monitor.cheapest route though is reloading a old machine with Ubuntu - free (you can get people to give you their old "useless" systems or recycle one of your own. even dumpster dive for one...)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 07:41:05 am
content: The Raspberry Pi is a fantastic embedded platform. It uses very low power so it can be left on all the time, I've had one for years operating as a general purpose server, FTP, temperature monitor, it has an RTL SDR dongle connected and other various stuff. Runs 24/7 and consumes less than 3 Watts. As a desktop platform it leaves much to be desired though.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 10:43:51 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 18, 2017, 07:41:05 amFor $5 more, the Odroid C2 is a massively better desktop platform.Same A53 at slightly higher MHz, but that's not the big thing. An actual 64 bit OS is good. 2GB of fast RAM instead of 1 GB of slow RAM is bigger. A very fast SD interface (and even better eMMC) instead of a very slow one is probably the most noticeable difference. 1000 Mbps ethernet instead of 100 Mbps make a huge difference for some uses.$5 very well spent.If you want even more speed, the Odroid XU-4 (quad A15 @ 2 GHz) is as fast an ARM as you'll get short of rooting a new top Android phone or iPhone. It's Exynos5422 is the same as used in the non-USA Galaxy S5. The price is a bit more than the C2 at $75, but it comes with the needed beefy 4A power supply (C2 only needs 2A). It's my go-to ARM board for real work, unless I need 64 bit (which you don't get to use with a Pi3 anyway).

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 12:31:59 pm
content: Stay away from ARM. You want something that just works for the kids. No pissing around with SD cards, enclosures or any of that faff or suddenly finding that something doesn't work or isn't compiled for ARM or suddenly you realise it doesn't have a SATA interface or suddenly you can't get a specific binary codec for it. This is a real problem. You want the kids to be users, not system administrators or end up having to be their system administrator!Simply buy an old business grade desktop PC and use that.HP Elite 8000 / 8100 / 8200. Stick Ubuntu on it. And you're done. You can get these off ebay for virtually nothing. They are absolutely rock solid machines and easy to clean/maintain and you can get them without a windows license. If you want to upgrade it in the future, stick a samsung Evo SSD in it and you can't tell the difference between a 5 year old machine and a new one bought retail.I grabbed a Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz machine with 4Gb of RAM or £25 in the UK from ebay to give you an idea. There are vastly larger quantities of these sold and disposed of in the US/Canada.If you're already doing that, don't change anything. You'll just end up costing yourself epic amounts of cash and time.My "desktop" is a 6 year old Lenovo X201 laptop. It gets a refurb battery every year and that's it. Another good option. T410/T420's are nice and cheap now if you want something bigger. That X201 is the machine I make my living off as a software engineer for ref. I paid so little for it, I bought another identical one that lives in the cupboard in case it fails.I've had three Raspberry Pis. They are trash compared to a desktop for everything other than power usage and having an IO header available. I have a Pi Zero hanging off the back of my Xbox 360 (for power!) that runs a few scraping and scalping scripts now and that's it. It has trouble even with a 200 line python script and parsing some HTML.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 12:58:34 pm
content: Be careful with old chromebooks. They can require some hoop jumping to use them with actual Linux and not all allow you to put in a larger SSD. For instance if you leave it in the normal development mode (which allows you to dual boot Linux) if you don't remove the write protect screw and change some settings, simply pressing the space bar during booting will wipe your SSD.If you're willing to jump the hoops I'd recommend finding a Toshiba Chromebook 2, seem to be a lot of them around second hand (I have a Dell Chromebook 13 with a Plextor 128 GB SSD, great Linux laptop).PS. for an old desktop I'd look for anything Sandy Bridge or up, that was the last real jump in computing power.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 06:20:13 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 18, 2017, 10:43:51 amThere's also the Shield TV which uses A57s and a scaled down desktop GPU but is in a somewhat higher price category. It does beat similarly priced x86 machines, especially in GPU power. Excellent if you want a cheap device for 4K upscaling. True videophiles will probably still go for a full desktop PC with a high end GPU.Maybe consider a tablet and a Bluetooth keyboard?

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 06:38:01 pm
content: With one of these ARM boards, the storage will likely either be small (on-board eMMC) or slow (SD card) write performance. On top of that, he'll need to dedicate a reliable USB power adapter to it, and a HDMI-VGA converter. Often a useful case is an extra few dollars too. You might need a USB hub as well.It's so much easier to get a usable Linux computer out of a used business desktop for $80-$100. There are so many things which are trivial to get going on Ubuntu (or another popular distribution) on x86/x86_64 but which you'll spend hours screwing around on a little ARM board to get working. So unless you're specifically doing that for fun (or work), or you really want the GPIOs or low power consumption, I don't see the point.(I am someone who loves the dedicated Beaglebone black in my HP 5370 and the one with my KiwiSDR, but who has at least a couple Raspberry Pi's and getchip.com boards sitting around doing nothing.)

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 07:15:54 pm
content: The used computer idea is a good one, however if you are searching for a smaller form factor with some performance behind it, try the Intel NUC series (see:http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/products-overview.html). For example:https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16856102141(needs RAM and HD).They are fast enough to run Windows or Linux reasonably well, with a basic set of modern software. Sort of like a low-mid range laptop, at their base, or you can turn them all the way up to Core i7 processors.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 07:23:31 pm
content: The issue is that this is all new hardware which will ALWAYS be more expensive than legacy stuff. And by what you described to me for what your kids need, I don't think they even would like an ARM based system. If there is a game or something they would like to play, for example, Minecraft, they wouldn't get very far.As I said LGA775 era or newer would be perfectly fine. Any 64 bit 80x86 CPU would be perfect, and with that range you can find systems on the street for nothing.SBCs and NUCs are TERRIBLE for a quick and dirty system for little kids. They offer 0 expansion abilities for later, and they are new systems, which will ALWAYS be more expensive than legacy.

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 08:38:33 pm
content: NUCs also seem to snuff it pretty quickly as well from experience.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 09:42:42 pm
content: I have a couple of Gigabyte Brix that I got sometime ago on sale. They've been reliable so far. They're not exactly a cheap option, even at $99, because you still need memory and a drive. The wireless card they came with was non-functional with Linux, so I replaced them with some $15 Intel, add the $40 SSD and $25 stick of RAM and they came in a bit under $200 all told.

author: shteii01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 01:06:43 am
content: For about 50 USD you can get Core 2 Due pc from ebay, put *nix on it and leave happily ever after.Something like this:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fast-Grade-A-Lenovo-M58-Type-7359-Intel-Core-2-Duo-2-93GHz-2GB-RAM-160GB-HDD-/262840544285?hash=item3d32846c1d:g:lDUAAOSwo4pYmOBzbut there are many others.This one is even better, 3 GHz cpu, 4 GB of RAM and Linux Mint already installed (and hopefully drivers configured) for you:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Optiplex-960-Desktop-PC-Core-2-Duo-E8400-3-00GHz-4GB-RAM-250GB-HDD-Linux-/381969754875?hash=item58ef2beafb:g:1qMAAOSwB-1YpvvH#viTabs_0

author: skylinrcr01
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 04:25:23 am
content: Just get a used Dell D620 on ebay for cheap ($40 if you're paitent), and throw ubuntu on it. No need for the peripherals, and they were designed to be robust.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 04:40:58 am
content: Quote from: skylinrcr01 on February 19, 2017, 04:25:23 amI'm sorry, but anything not server grade with a Dell or HP logo on it is NOT designed to be robust, full stop.They are designed to be cheap, easy to replace, and to be just thrown in an office somewhere for somebody to use it.

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 06:49:47 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on February 19, 2017, 04:40:58 amGenerally almost anything made by Dell, Lenovo, HP(don't have much experience using there business class notebooks) are going to be rather reliable. Provided that they were not abused.Heck my pos* Inspiron 1525 lasted 6 years without any problems, and It did not live a pampered life.* The hinge locked up twice. First time (Left hinge) broke the screen bezel, when I tried opening it up. Then the second time did even worse(right hinge) haven't looked into fixing it yet. That lappy will be the gpib machine.

author: firehopper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 08:17:09 am
content: another option is look to see if you have a local freecycle list you can join and watch, some nice stuff gets given away occasionally on those. I got a nice parallax propeller dev board and a old digital/analog trainer case. freecycle.org I do believe is the url

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 03:03:11 pm
content: Pretty much any laptop from the last ten years will run Ubuntu MATE quite happily.K.I.S.S.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 03:45:53 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on February 19, 2017, 04:40:58 amI can vouch for business laptops from Dell are quite good. However, I would stay away from D620/D630 due to the Nvidia graphics chip failure. I had both at work and both had to have their motherboards replaced twice.Otherwise they were great laptops. Nowadays I use a D6520 and it is quite a laptop. The family D642x/652x and D643x/653x are quite good computers.

author: shteii01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 04:55:02 pm
content: My only issue with off lease business laptops is the 14" screen. If it has 14" screen, I will never buy one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 05:13:01 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on February 19, 2017, 04:40:58 amThat is true for their consumer grade PCs but not for their 'for business' machines. They have to be robust (and even more robust than a server which usually sits in a relatively dust free airconditioned room) because replacing a PC or loss of production due to crashes increases the cost of ownership. The price for these kind if machines is kept low by not having a fancy graphics & audio card, clever design of the housing so assembly is cheap and using slightly older technology.

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 05:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: shteii01 on February 19, 2017, 04:55:02 pmI sit all day in front of a 12" screen. It's not how big it is but what you do with it

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 05:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: shteii01 on February 19, 2017, 04:55:02 pm14" is a bit too big for a laptop in my opinion. My personal laptop has a 12.5" 1080p screen and I find that just about perfect. On my desktop I have a nice big 24" monitor which is great but I don't have to lug it around or slip it in a backpack.

author: skylinrcr01
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 06:34:35 pm
content: As others have said, Dell has pretty crap consumer stuff, aside from the XPS13. Their business stuff is pretty decent though, as is HPs. The only trouble I've had with older Dell business laptops have been failling HDDs, which comes with age, so not abnormal.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 07:46:54 pm
content: Thanks for all the advice!I really appreciate it. I will look into getting a desktop PC for now, and if it has Windows preferably already on it I can install a dual-boot Ubuntu partition. That way I don't "force" the kids into Linux-only land, but they will have an option to use Windows when need be.With respect to pricing, I know there are bargains to be found... but the simplest option for me may be to shell out $70-100 and have a business-class machine (like a Lenovo, etc) from a local refurbisher who has completely wiped the machine and put a clean Win7 installation on it, ready to go and tested. I realize I could find better deals by looking at local listings/personal sales, but I don't have the time to drive around and take a chance on what I'm getting (unless it is free).Unfortunately, being here in Toronto, by the time I factor in cost for shipping anything from the USA that heavy (like a $30-50 US machine with $20-30 shipping), it ends up costing the same or more to buy anything from eBay. So my best option is finding local refurbishers who list on eBay or Craigslist, contact them directly and just drive to their store for local pickup.The main issue here was not so much the cost, but whether to consider:- Raspberry Pi- Barebones computer- Laptop- Chromebook- Desktop PC(especially given my kids current needs and since I already have VGA monitor/mouse/keyboard).After all things considered, the desktop PC seems like the best choice even for $100 budget.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 09:36:58 pm
content: You could try an Asus Tinker board much like a raspberry Pi but twice the power and only a bit more expensive.

author: shteii01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2017, 10:49:04 pm
content: I have netbook too, 11 or 12" if I recall correctly. That is why I will not waste my money for the in between sizes. I either want 17" on laptop or I will take the work home and do it on pc in comfort.Quote from: SingedFingers on February 19, 2017, 05:34:39 pm

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 12:40:30 am
content: My daily driver is a Lenovo X250, a small notebook with a core i7 and a 1080p screen. It's a wonderful machine for the most part although the touchpad is awful. Unfortunately these horrid gigantic "clickpads" without physical buttons at the bottom and so big that I'm constantly bumping it with my palms have spread like cancer. This machine with the nice little touchpad from my old X100e would be a dream.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 01:28:59 am
content: Personally I absolutely can't stand laptops. They are slow, hot, and expensive. If I need to take my computing on the go, I would get an Android tablet, or just don't go anywhere.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 05:23:05 am
content: I prefer to use a desktop in general, but a laptop is nice when I want to sit on the couch. I've played with Android and iOS tablets and never really found a good use for them, they won't do 90% of what I use my computers for. Can't do PCB layouts on a tablet, can't do FPGA development on a tablet, can't transcode videos on a tablet, can't run virtual machines on a tablet, can't run DosBox to play old games. I can do email or use forums like this one if I feel like being a masochist but a laptop with a keyboard is infinitely more pleasant to use.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 06:24:52 am
content: There actually is a port of DOSbox for Android. Old games made do with so little horsepower that the overhead of emulation is no big deal nowadays. But I do see the future being "2 in 1" devices. Hopefully they'll come out with an affordable one with good pen input.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 02:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 20, 2017, 06:24:52 amThe current PC market is leaning towards portable devices for low power business use, with high end desktop PCs being for gaming.And I have a very special place in my life for Emulation. It is good if you want to no hassle play a game without getting away from your desk, but there is no substitute for a good 486 or Pentium machine for DOS gaming.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 04:18:36 pm
content: My kids and my wife and I all 4 have laptops. I buy the 'refurbished' Dell Latitudes for $200-$250 each.For a desktop my son saved up his $ for one. I took him to a local pc shop and let him pick out a low cost case, MB, cpu, etc. I helped him pick out what parts he needs and walked him through putting it all together. Was a good learning experience.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 02:56:30 am
content: The 2-in-1 concept has so far been a big failure failure despite massive effort being put into developing and pushing these things. Microsoft wrote off hundreds of millions of dollars worth of unsold Surface devices and of the few people I know who have 2-in-1 computers they are used almost exclusively in laptop mode. It's the Spork of computers, a compromise that makes it a lousy tablet *and* a lousy laptop. IMHO it makes a lot more sense to have a laptop and/or a desktop and a tablet, each device optimized for what it is. Hardware is cheap enough now that this is not a big deal. You can easily slip a tablet into the storage pouch of a laptop bag so it's not like you have to lug around an armload of equipment.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 05:30:22 pm
content: Thanks for the suggestions. I found a local refurbisher that sells on eBay/Craigslist but offers local pickup to avoid shipping charges. Unfortunately I still need to deal with the 13% tax in Ontario. Here are my choices, from cheapest to most costly depending on my budget (pre-tax):1. $74= Lenovo ThinkCentre M58p 6137 Business Small Form Factor Computer Core2Duo 3.0GHz, 4G, 160G, DVD, Windows 10 Home.Model: SFF 6137 C2D 3.0G/4G/160G/DVD/W10H.MFT SKU: 6137AU8 Condition: refurbished Grade A. C2D/E8400/3.0G/DDR III/4G/SATA/160G/DVD/W10H MAR/BLACK2. $124= Dell OptiPlex GX755 mini-tower computer QuadCore 2.4GHz, 4G, 250G, DVDRW, Windows 10 Home.Model: TW GX755 QC 2.4G/4G/250G/RW/W10H.SKU: 392537 Condition: refurbished Grade A. QC/Q660/2.4G/DDR II/4G/SATA/250G/DVDRW/W10H MAR/BLACKStock: 13. $137= Dell Precision T3400 Workstation. Model: TW Pre T3400.SKU: 390277 MFT SKU: DELDKM88 Condition: refurbished Grade A. C2D/E8400/3.0G/8G/SATA/160G/DVD/TOWER/W10H MAR4. $149= LENOVO ThinkStation S20 4105 TW.Model: TW 4105. SKU: 364139 MFT SKU: 4105R9F Condition: refurbished Grade A. QUADXEON/W3550/3.06G/DDR III/8G/SATA/250G/DVDRW/W10P MAR/Black5. $162= Lenovo ThinkCentre M90 3245 Small Form Factor i3 3.2GHz, 4G, 250G, DVDRW, Windows 10 Professional.Model: SFF 3245 i3 3.2G/4G/250G/RW/W10PSKU: 350455 Condition: refurbished Grade A. I3/3.2G/DDR III/4G/SATA/250G/DVDRW/W10P MAR/Black6. $162= Lenovo ThinkCentre M90p 3853 Ultra Small Form Factor USFF i5 3.2GHz, 4G, 250G, DVDRW, Windows 10 Professional.Model: USFF 3853 i5 3.2G/4G/250G/RW/W10P.SKU: 348736 MFT SKU: 3853RN9 Condition: refurbished Grade A. I5/650/3.2G/DDR III/4G/SATA/250G/DVDRW/WIN10P MAR/BLACKAny thoughts, comments? Are these prices ok? I just want to split up the primary Windows partition and install some version of Ubuntu, and plug in a USB WiFi dongle so they can access the internet. I assume all of these desktops have VGA output (or is HDMI output only these days)? If the $74 machine is good enough, I'll just get that, unless you think it's not worth the money and I would get better value from the other machines listed. Thanks for your help!

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 05:33:34 pm
content: #1 is more than sufficient for your needs. That will have VGA or I'm a donkey's uncle.For what they want (Light web browsing/youtube, scratch, basic open/libreoffice work) that will do perfectly fine.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 06:11:03 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on February 17, 2017, 11:45:26 pmThat comment made me laugh.So if you give them a machine with Windows or Mac OS on, then you could say you're forcing Windows or Mac OS on them.Nonsense. There's nothing wrong with giving your children a Linux PC. There will be plenty of opportunities for them to learn to use Windows at school and nothing was said about forbidding them from using other computers. Being exposed to different software and platforms is a good thing.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 06:47:07 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on February 23, 2017, 06:11:03 pmIf they want Linux or Mac and you mandate they run Windows then yes that is forcing it on them. Doesn't really matter though, give them what you want to support and they can use what you give them. If they want something else, they'll have an opportunity eventually to earn their own money and buy whatever system they desire.It's just a computer, it's not a major life decision. It's pretty easy to change from one OS to another at any point. Those refurbished systems will likely have a Windows 7 license sticker on them providing the option to run that, or Linux of course is free to install on anything. You can even install both and dual boot. Heck even MacOS can be installed on generic PCs provided they have compatible hardware.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:06:45 pm
content: Our schools mandate chromebooks, so Linux/win/mac doesn't matter.Depending one the kids age and other factors they might not even know what windows only tools they are missing. There are plenty of games, minecraft, 0 A.D. simutrans, etc. They will get used to Linre/openOffice then wonder why Excel crashes all the time when they get in front of a windows PC.

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 23, 2017, 06:47:07 pmTrue. Really it comes down to where you incur the frustration:Linux: you have to mess around to get everything working to start with.Windows: you have to mess around to get everything working again a couple of weeks after you install it.MacOS: you have to go to the Retard Bar in an Apple store or deal with someone who is clearly on an MDMA drip on the phone if they mess it up.ChromeOS: messing is forbidden unless you are Google. All bow before the monolith.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 23, 2017, 06:28:21 pmI know but not everyone needs all of that: people have differing needs, hence why there are different platforms. I use Linux exclusively at home and it suits me perfectly. I don't game so that's fine.Some of it's a matter of taste too. I use MS Office at work and think it's poor, compared to Libra Office. I can't stand MS Office's patronising user interface and find each task takes more mouse clicks, than it does with Libra Office. Features wise they're pretty much comparable.And lastly, if you're getting a computer for children to do their homework on, then not being able to run many games could be an advantage.EDIT:Another thing is, it's easier to get into coding on the Linux platform, not that it can't be done with Windows but it doesn't come with any development tools by default, like Linux does. Back in the day, when all personal computers came with a programming environment, lots of children got into coding that way. Now with Windows dominating, that's no longer the case.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:54:38 pm
content: When I was in college in the late 90s I deliberately used an ancient (even then) Mac Plus to do all of my homework. Partly because it had a laser printer rather than the primitive inkjet I had for my PC, and partly because there was little in the way of games on it to distract me, nor could it access the internet which was a relatively new thing at the time. As old as that thing was, even today I could use a similar system to produce documents that look every bit as professional as something written in the latest version of MS Word.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:55:01 pm
content: Also with tools like Arduino and such Linux is easier. My son can simply walk downstairs, ask me a question and walk back up and windows has decided to deny permission to run Ardunio's IDE again.Anyway to get back on topic. If you haven't bought a PC in a long time you may be disappointed in the leveno's, they seem really cheapened down compared to the old IBM's. I'd still assemble one rather than buy one and let the kids help.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:57:37 pm
content: The Lenovo is no IBM PS/2 in terms of build quality, but they're not bad either. We have loads of Thinkcentre M90 and M91 PCs at work running a mix of Win10 and Linux and for the most part they've been rock solid dependable machines. I still build my own desktops, though not very often, the one I built 2 years ago I expect to use for at least another decade but that's only because I like the building part, it doesn't work any better than an OEM box.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 12:42:04 am
content: When I gave my kids (9 and 7 year old girls, 4 year old boy) the old computer that I installed with Lubuntu (before it died, hence this thread).... they basically jumped into Chromium and used it to browse to their school's Google Docs/Classroom site. They had no idea what the difference was between Ubuntu, Windows, etc... it all seems to work the same. I think at that age we forget that the interfaces come naturally and for their basic usage any system is more than good enough as long as it has Chrome.The first thing my 9 and 7 year old girls did was figure out how to change their desktop backgrounds and that was enough entertainment for them. Each had a separate login and user/password which they kept secret, which was their very own, which was exciting for them.... and when they logged in they would return to their desktop background they set up. For several weeks all they were doing was looking for new desktops in Google to change their backgrounds. Amazing what excites kids these days... they ended up fascinated with Poop emojis.They tried visiting some Flash-game sites to play games and guess what, it didn't work.(I later installed Adobe Flash for Ubuntu but that's not the point). I was happy that I didn't need to worry about them playing games, they have enough crap to distract them on their tablets, TV and such. I don't want them playing games, I want them creating games... which is why we started working on Scratch and they managed to make some rudimentary stuff with my help, in Ubuntu, using Scratch.So as far as computers go, if that $74 Thinkcentre M58p 6137 will do the job (Core2Duo 3.0GHz, 4G, 160G, DVD, Windows 10 Home) maybe I should just stick with that for now, put a second Ubuntu partition with dual-boot option and away she goes? I'll plug back in the WiFi USB dongle they were using before, a VGA monitor (I have a DVI-VGA adapter) and the USB mouse/keyboard and they will never know the difference. I may even install Ubuntu Studio this time, instead of Lubuntu, since it is a more powerful machine.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 01:48:09 am
content: Quote from: edy on February 24, 2017, 12:42:04 amThat's the biggest issue with computer use with my 8 and 10 year old boys. They will spend all their time on game sites or worse, watching hours of youtube videos of others playing games- if I let them. Who knows what else they would find if they had unfettered browsing access. Parental controls are essential. The built in parental controls are better on OSX than Windows. Are there any parental controls on Ubuntu?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 04:50:53 am
content: I actually still use a Core2Duo 3.0 GHz that I built it in 2008. Though it's no longer my primary computer it's used daily for pretty much everything except watching movies and playing the latest games. I think the Lenovo M58 will be fine for want you're planning.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 09:00:23 am
content: Quote from: edy on February 23, 2017, 05:30:22 pmAny of those machines will be fine.An old second hand computer will probably do. At home I still use an old 2006 era machine, I got from a work colleague for next to nothing, as my main PC and it's fine for basic use. I can't recall the exact specs. it's an early 64-bit machine with only 1GB of RAM. The only upgrade I did was a solid state hard drive, which was well worth it. At work I use a much newer Intel i3 based machine, which doesn't appear to be any faster for most tasks, than my crappy home PC.

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 10:55:38 am
content: Watch out for the workstation class machines; they drink electricity

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 04:43:07 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on February 24, 2017, 01:48:09 amSee that's sometihng I don't get at all. I'm as guilty as the next guy of wasting hours watching youtube videos, and I've spent plenty of time playing games, but what is the point of watching someone else play games? That's about as entertaining as watching paint dry.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 04:50:50 pm
content: *editedEnded up in wrong threadSorry

author: HoracioDos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 07:06:04 pm
content: Hi.This is my experience. My son is 9 years old and his notebook is an old dual core 2.x Ghz that used to be mine with Linux Mint 18 (Serena) Mate Edition. It's super stable and quite fast.As he prefers my wife's ipad, he still doesn't care if his NB is on linux or not. He knows that windows's software doesn't run there so he doen't download everything he sees. I think there are quite less virus chances.You can play Minecraft and install mods and more complex games can be played on Steam. Almost every browser is available to watch Youtube and check webmail. I prefer Opera (Adblock & VPN built in).Netflix can be played now with Firefox. Spotify and Skype clients are also available. There's a lot of educative software and programming languages. He is starting with Scratch. LibreOffice is fine for his homework. New ribbon interface is available now.Finally, the most important lesson: There's life without Windows and there's one misterious thing called command prompt.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 07:11:06 pm
content: Yuck, that godforsaken ribbon has now spread to LibreOffice? I sure hope it stays optional, I've had to use it at work since 2010 and I still hate it. Extra clicks for everything.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 07:15:59 pm
content: Quote from: edy on February 23, 2017, 05:30:22 pmI bought a similar Compaq/HP configuration with E8400, 0GB DRAM, no hard drive and Win 7PRO license for $10 CDN. The only reason I needed Win 7 (now upgraded to Win 10) is for a tax program I run. While the tax program can run using WINE, the configuration is very finicky and very time consuming to retest every new update whether it be WINE, MONO, .NET or the tax program itself. Something always seems to break.One great thing about running linux is that it requires very little disk space for its OS/programs (typically less than 5GB). Thus, I can buy used SSDs for cheap. For example, I got a 30GB SSD for $5 CDN.PS. I liked the Compaq/HP SFF and its build quality and serviceability so much, I bought 4 of them for $10 each.

author: HoracioDos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 07:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 24, 2017, 04:43:07 pmNo there isn't something like Net Nanny.A few years ago I installed a proxy (raspberry pi) to filter web searches and block pictures but it took me a lot of time and never worked as it should. Google's parental control is a shame and it's almost impossible to block images. We use Duckduck a lot.Best thing I've found is a well known and discussed policy about internet usage.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 07:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on February 24, 2017, 07:15:59 pmNice score... how do you find this stuff so cheap? I may have to just shell out a bit more because I don't have the time to go around or patience to troubleshoot or add components. Awesome you could find them.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 07:49:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 24, 2017, 07:11:06 pmLooks reasonable to me:https://i0.wp.com/blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/LibreOfficeDev-Writer-Notebook-Bar.png?ssl=1

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 08:33:30 pm
content: They still have the traditional menu there too, I can deal with that.It's Microsoft's insistence on forcing the ribbon down everyone's throats and eliminating the existing menu that irritated me. Just give me a choice, everyone can be happy.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 08:36:58 pm
content: Lots of people asked for it. Hopefully they do have enough sense to let it be turned off.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 09:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: HoracioDos on February 24, 2017, 07:06:04 pmWe've been using OpenOffice. The problem we're having is that some teachers insist on using only the latests MS Word format for assignments that need editing at home. OpenOffice does not always handle these. Is LibreOffice better?Quote from: HoracioDos on February 24, 2017, 07:22:53 pmI hadn't seen Net Nanny before. It looks like overkill for our household - and I'm not a fan of subscription models.The built in parental controls on MacOS are pretty good. The parental controls on my boys Android tablets is ok but not great. Windows built in controls are marginal.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 09:48:01 pm
content: As long as they don't add Clippy, I'll be ok....

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 09:48:56 pm
content: Quote from: edy on February 24, 2017, 07:45:30 pmYou nailed it. Everyone values time and money to their own criteria.By the time, I drove to get the $10 Compaq SFF, $5 SSDs, $2 DDR3 memory, etc, it would probably work out to the same $75 you are paying. I do try to aggregate errands, visits, etc with my kijiji finds.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 11:49:08 pm
content: Sometimes you get lucky, but I've found that most of the time when I actually need something, there are none to be found but after I buy one I then see loads of them for sale for half what I paid.Last year I sold a complete Pentium4 tower with a monitor, video card, fancy sound board, etc, at one time a fairly high end system for $20 because I was tired of stepping around it. Older desktop PCs are dirt cheap in general but if you just want to get one now, 75 bucks is not a big deal unless you have much more free time than money.

author: HoracioDos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 11:10:55 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on February 24, 2017, 09:07:51 pmLibreOffice and OpenOffice are almost the same and yes, there are some compatibility issues saving documents in MS formats like .docx, xlsx, etc. If you write simple documents you can avoid them.You can use Microsoft or Google web documents, but again, as their features are quite simple the result is also simple. There is a buzz that WPS Office (Chinese development) previously known as Kingsoft Office has solved these issues, but I have the same feeling about Ubuntu Kylin and WSP, that someone is spying on me.Quote from: mtdoc on February 24, 2017, 09:07:51 pmAs I wrote before, the best thing I've found is a well known and discussed family policy about internet usage.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 04:31:45 pm
content: Somebody ended up giving me a couple of old laptops found in their basement...1. Some GateWay Pentium 4 machine.... I tried to power it up, nothing, dead. I opened it up and got to the motherboard... multiple CAPS were blown/leaking. Not worth repairing, I pulled some components maybe can be useful later.2. An old IBM ThinkPad 380D, powered up.... Would initially not boot, gave error message.... turned out it was a CMOS battery issue so I popped the lid and replaced the coin-cell Lithium battery. Booted into Win95. Pentium (r) 24 MB RAM, 1.35 GB hard drive.http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:380DSo what do I do with this antique? My kids can't use it... Perhaps I can flip it to some collector or trade in for a newer machine. Any ideas if this thing is worth a trade or eBay sale? It came with a bunch of networking bits, PCMCIA cards and such and some pre-installed office software.I could put MAME on there and a bunch of old ROMs... make it a portable arcade machine. Because it lacks USB I can't even use it to type stuff in MSWorks and copy over files. CD-ROM is read only. It has a 1.44" floppy but no other machine has a drive. Perhaps through network I can transfer but more time than worth doing.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 05:49:19 pm
content: I have a similar machine I use occasionally to play old games. Best bet is probably give it to a collector. You might get something for it but probably not very much. It's at that point in the life cycle where the value has probably bottomed out but it's not quite old enough to have started to go up.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 07:00:55 pm
content: Just a comment of free office packages:these are all available for linux as well as the various flavors of ms windowsWPS Offiice - great compatability with MS windows office - free version with ads or a pay version (like 45 a year or 80 for a lifetime licence) - is defiantly worth looking at and in my option a cut above the below twoLibre Office - good ompactability with windows office - very popular and fairly well supported and ad freeOpen Office - fair compatibility with windows office - i used to be a big fan of this back to the star office days but seems to jsut lag behind libre and wps. some complex ms office files will not load right.if i wanted to keep my kids away from ads id go for libre office, and if it was for me, and for productivity id go WPS and in fact run WPS on many of my systems were i don't ahve an MS license.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2017, 10:16:39 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 23, 2017, 06:28:21 pmThat is entirely dependent on your workflow and how used you are to MS Office... Having used both for years, I personally never noticed any meaningful differences.The only .docx files I have ever had issues with were created by some complete jackass at the university I'm studying at, they have these ridiculously overcomplicated form pages, it's beyond madness really. And they accept a regular blank page with all the data if you use Libre/OpenOffice, as they too know their docx template is shite.Quote from: blueskull on February 23, 2017, 06:28:21 pmIt might have been an issue for you personally, but most people can't afford Altium Designer, and Linux does run KiCAD.Quote from: blueskull on February 23, 2017, 06:28:21 pmThat's true for the time being, unfortunately, as your remarks about the problem with the whole thing coming down after an update.Quote from: blueskull on February 23, 2017, 06:28:21 pmReally, who gives a flying f*...Anyway, I've used a Linux desktop for some 10 years, and moved to Mac OS after that, and yes, Linux does get kinda painful at times for desktop purposes... still, it's all about use cases, and what's available now on Linux is lightyears ahead of what I had when I made it my primary platform... Personally, it helped me stay focused and kept me off MMORPGs, which I consider a definite plus.If I had kids that age, I'd probably also give them a Linux box as a first choice.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2017, 11:11:13 am
content: Quote from: edy on March 05, 2017, 04:31:45 pmIf you can get it working, you'll be able to run a basic graphical desktop on that, if you have enough memory installed.QuoteI like the old ThinkPads. They're very robust and reliable.You could run some old Linux distribution on that, probably not a desktop though.QuoteI thought the ThinkPad pictured had a USB drive?I doubt it will have enough processing power for MAME. Emulation requires a processor several times more powerful than the machine being emulated. It will probably fine for some of the old 8-bit games but nothing newer.How about installing FreeDOS on it and using it for old DOS games? If the command line interface becomes boring then there are graphical desktops for DOS.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2017, 04:39:51 pm
content: I ran MAME on a 100MHz Pentium back in the day and it ran fine. I only ever cared about games from the 70s-early 80s though, before the classics were overrun by all the button masher fighting crap.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2017, 05:38:23 pm
content: I successfully installed MAME, DirectX 7.0, WinAmp, ACDSee, PhotoShop v4.0, FractInt 20 and PKUNZIP on the ThinkPad 380D Win95 machine (I had old CD's with tons of Win95/98-era software, even some floppies). Battery is completely dead, it works just on AC power. The CD-DRIVE on it is solid as a rock! None of this flimsy thin trays we have these days.The machine already had: Microsoft Office 97 Pro, Microsoft Works, Calendar, Lotus Mail/Notes, Novell NetWare, McAfee, Royal Bank software, Netscape, IE 4.0, etc... it was somebody's business machine.Anyways, I needed the HD space and so I uninstalled Lotus Mail/Notes as it was all encrypted with passwords anyways and I had no use for it. Same goes for Novell NetWare drivers which were nagging me on every boot to enter a password. Got rid of a few more things and that cleared up enough room. Now it boots nicely into Windows 95 and ready to go.MAME works well, I tried some of the more basic games (1948, Galaga, etc...) and they are nice with sound and everything smooth as the original! FractInt works fine up to 800x600x16bit color. WinAmp plays MP3's on there just fine, no glitches. Even AVI's will play well. I haven't tested MPG's or newer compressions, I'm sure they will start choking on the machine.Anyways, it is a decent machine otherwise, built like a tank.... but limited with respect to getting information in/out without the USB. I don't have an external floppy drive, and the machine cannot burn CD's. So either I use the serial port to transfer, or use the old PCMCIA card with network port to hook in to my WiFi router whenever the kids need to transfer their work. I have an old machine in the basement with floppy drive AND USB port, so I can use it as an intermediary to copy stuff.As nice as it is to mess around with this old ThinkPad, it is a time-waster hobby I don't have the time for. I think it will be mainly a retro-gaming machine to play around on, and the kids can learn on it. I may even be able to use it for some MIDI control (it has a serial output and I made myself a cable to connect to Yamaha keyboard back in the day which I was doing MIDI sequencing with, and I have old software to do it). It also has full Office Pro on there, even being 20 years old now.... it's still perfectly fine for the kids to type on the nicely built-in keyboard. It is just the problem of moving it off the machine, a hassle.NOTE:The machine in the above photo *does* show a USB port, but I do not see one on mine (unless I went blind, which is a possibility... I will have to check again, maybe it was covered or is an extra option added later) Have a look....Not mine...It must have been added on in later models?Hey look what I found....http://www.ebay.com/itm/Floppy-Disk-Drive-Disc-Portable-External-USB-1-44MB-3-5-PC-Converter-Reader-/112013884122?hash=item1a148c3ada:g:4ksAAOSwMNxXToYxI can get one of these and the kids can transfer their work over to my computer when they need to print something. It's $10. They'll use the internal floppy on the old ThinkPad, and then I'll be able to read the floppy on my computer. Same goes if I have to transfer things to them, old software, etc...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2017, 07:42:41 pm
content: The thing I find interesting when dealing with old hardware like that is somebody probably paid at least $3K for that machine and aside from needing a new battery it's every bit as powerful and capable as it ever was. Only our expectations of what a computer should do have changed.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 12:46:57 am
content: Yes, the ThinkPad 380... blistering Pentium 150 Mhz processor, thinnest and lightest laptop to date....It was a beast in it's day, and at $1799 for the entry level model would be like us spending about $2500-2700 today (based on the historical inflation calculator).1997... That's 20 years ago. Geez!My current ASUS M51A laptop that I am still using every day is from late 2008... 9 years old. It started off with Windows Vista BIZ... but then quickly got upgraded to Win 7, and now it is running Ubuntu Studio 16.04 LTS with Win 7 in the original partition whenever I need to boot it (once in a while, painfully slow).The ASUS has 250 GB HD, with 2 GB RAM.The ThinkPad has 1.35 GB HD, with 24 MB RAM.The difference though in the past 10 years in terms of what is in laptops has not changed as dramatically... Whereas the ThinkPad to ASUS got almost 100 x as much HD space and 100 x the memory. Today you'd expect if the rate continued, you'd have 25 TB HD's and 200 GB RAM in your laptops. Nope!

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 02:12:50 am
content: I have a ThinkPad 560E. I bought it on clearance when the next year's models came out. It sold for around $4000 originally and I paid just a bit over $1000. The last time I messed with it was to put a larger hard drive in and that was probably 10 years ago. I wonder if it would still start up.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 02:32:15 am
content: I have a Dell Latitude C400 that I paid $1200 for in 2002. It will still boot and run the latest Slackware but just a little slower then than my main laptop.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 01:46:44 pm
content: Scary realization... 1997 when that Thinkpad 380D was the ducks guts state of the art, I graduated my 4 year University degree and was just starting my doctorate. I just got a taste of reality...I found an install pack for Borland C++ 3.1 and put that on the machine as well as an old DivX player (it was painfully slow and glitch and incompatible with most videos even from that era). Borland C worked and I made a quick hello world program which surprisingly I still remembered how to do almost with no errors (forgot a few includes but otherwise syntax all good). I made particle systems simulations, fractal generators, text parsers, games and many other DOS programs using that back in the day.Brings back memories...

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 01:56:05 pm
content: We did Turbo Pascal 5.0 then Turbo C 2 or 3 in college. I bought Borland C++ 4.0 and had to upgrade my 286 to a 386 just to install it.Borland released most of those old versions to the public domain, you can download them and the manuals from archive.orgWife's college did that thinkpad program where you rent a thinkpad for $600 per semester then at the end of your degree you could buy it for another $600. $122 per year x 4 years plus another $600 was just a bit overpriced. We already had laptops at home so her thinkpad was never used but it was a required.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 03:59:47 pm
content: I see a few people using old computers in this thread. Makes me feel better I'm still chugging along on my old machines I put together years ago. They still work great so why replace them.On my main desktop I recently did an interesting CPU upgrade where I was able to adapt an LGA771 Xeon to my LGA775 Core 2 motherboard. It only requires an adapter sticker and some filing. I bought a Xeon X5482 for like thirty bucks off eBay which is a processor that retailed well over a grand in its day.The computer was fast enough before with a Core 2 duo CPU, but now it's a lot faster with the quad core Xeon. Along with SSDs it's plenty fast enough now for anything I can throw at it. Seems the performance boost just from going to solid state drives was all it really needed. That's made more of a difference than anything else I've done to these old machines. The Xeon CPU gave it another kick in the right direction.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 04:05:54 pm
content: Any old computer not laptop though I got rid of because I can do the same with a Pi.Other than the Amiga.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 04:50:05 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on March 07, 2017, 01:56:05 pmYes, I stumbled upon archive.org again today and noticed a HUGE collection of Win95 CD-ROM ISO's that I can download. I'll have to buy a stack of 100 CD-R's and just burn a bunch of educational ones, the kids can use them. I also found an old roller-ball mouse in the basement with a PS/2 port which is easier than using the red thumb-stick/trackpoint on the ThinkPad keyboard.As for CD-R's... I've noticed I can't read all of them on my old ThinkPad. I'm not sure why... could be the media type, Azure/Blue or the silver/yellow disks, different dyes used. Not sure if I should be watching out for anything. I don't want to buy a stack of the wrong CD-R and then end up burning stuff that the old ThinkPad CD-ROM drive has trouble reading.So other than Internet (which is too much hassle to set up although it is possible as I have an Ethernet PCMCIA adapter that came with it), the machine can do a chock-load of stuff as a stand-alone machine. Learning, typing up documents, coding, MAME games, etc... They would just need some help when printing as I would need to open it on my laptop to print over WiFi.One of the main drivers of computing development from 20 years ago to 10 years ago was Internet and getting to decent media playback (video/music). Then the jump from 10 years ago to today is Gaming-driven. If you don't need super-fast graphics and HD resolutions and 3D you can live on a 10 year old machine for basic office work. Future development is likely to be related to VR and more realism of games.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 04:51:34 pm
content: Until about 2 years ago I was still using a nearly 10 year old Pentium 4 as my main PC. It only had 1GB of RAM and was running Windows XP but it still did almost everything I needed to do, it even ran Xilinx ISE and Altera Quartus for FPGA development although it was a bit slow to compile. I only upgraded because it was hopelessly slow transcoding video. I expect my current i7 desktop and notebook with Win7 will last me at least a decade unless the hardware fails.