Another Tesla autopilot crash, this time with a police car... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 01:49:12 am
content: A Tesla driver suffered only minor injuries Tuesday after her sedan crashed into a parked Laguna Beach police car while in autopilot mode, officials said.http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/05/29/tesla-autopilot-crash-police-suv-model-x/How many times can they crash before it becomes a PR problem?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 02:43:13 am
content: What are they going to do about it? Renaming it from autopilot may be a good start, but people will still misuse the feature. I'm sure cruise control caused some accidents when it was first introduced.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 04:14:30 am
content: How about disable it entirely, forcing people to pay attention and actually drive the car? Maybe rework the system to prevent lane departure but sound a loud horn in the process. Personally I don't like any sort of gadgets like this though, when I'm driving a car, I'm driving the car, nothing else.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 06:14:47 am
content: I don't understand how it reached the point where it was legal at all.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:17:10 am
content: Quote from: apis on May 30, 2018, 01:49:12 amIn addition, I don't know what the insurance companies current policy is on these vehicles but I suspect if the failures continue on the same path then they may decide to steer clear of these things altogether or possibly impose astronomical premiums, even if the technology was completely reliable and foolproof it is still risky business for them, this aspect alone could have a substantial impact on sales.

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:27:52 am
content: Everyone keeps bullshitting on Tesla...Autopilot is Autopilot. It's self driving.Please recall that Autopilot is taken from planes, Generally considered, a plane in autopilot will not land itself, dodge planes or birds in the sky.Why do people expect this of Tesla?!The features it adds are very good, this is purely PR, in terms of the crashes / fataliies compared to other cars is said to be 4x lower.I'm sure this would be a much bigger shitshow if that was not true.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:29:25 am
content: Just as Elon Musk said.Quote

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:32:41 am
content: I think that due to the high degree of interest in the idea of driver-less cars that we are seeing a disproportionate level of scrutiny given to the few incidents we have seen thus far compared to the thousands (and that's an understatement) of human error related crashes.What we do not know (unless someone can provide the numbers) is the percentage of successful autonomous trips per mile driven .vs. crashes as that would give a much better point of comparison against totally human controlled cars.like @rdl though I am also totally confused how autonomous cars are legally able to drive on public roads. For me the technology is far too immature. I mean if a car were smart enough to drive itself then I think we would have some serious civil rights issues to deal with.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:34:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 30, 2018, 04:14:30 amBut, but, that's "anti-innovation"!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:37:16 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on May 30, 2018, 08:17:10 amIt's simple. The person behind the wheel is legally responsible for driving the car, end of story.

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:45:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 30, 2018, 08:37:16 amWell yes... I've deal with a few companies who are in the envious position of being self-insured. That is to say they are big enough, have crunched the numbers, and determined that it is cheaper to go that way than to dole out to for third-party liability. BUT that shows they are able to back their own products to the Nth degree.If Tesla ever got to that point I would do a serious double take.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:48:27 am
content: Quote from: David Chamberlain on May 30, 2018, 08:32:41 amTesla autopilot isn't claiming to be an autonomous car and it's not even close, it's fancy cruise control.The interesting part is if the Tesla autopilot saves more lives than it takes away. Musk says it does but I don't know if there is any publicly available data and statistics on that.Autonomous cars are not smart, you don't have to be smart to drive and follow the traffic rules. The challenge has been how to transform sensor data into a sufficiently accurate internal 3D model of the world. If you have an accurate model of the world around you figuring out how to drive in it is trivial. What made autonomous cars possible was the LIDAR sensors (that provides reliable 3D data) and the feasibility of storing very detailed maps on a single hard drive (that is what Google began doing following the success ofStanley).

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 09:08:49 am
content: Quote from: apis on May 30, 2018, 08:48:27 amGranted I was stretching the bean a little by implying that Tesla cars were Autonomous. But otherwise we are mostly on the same page.I will respectfully disagree to the idea that having an accurate model of the world is all that is required to drive a car, do you mean to say an accurately 'interpreted' model of the world? After-all raw data is just 1's and 0's.The problem I see is more with the users who hop in to a new car with fancy Tech and the expectation that they can snap-chat while driving. I'm wondering what educational lessons are given to new Tesla owner before they get behind the wheel if any?

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 09:44:39 am
content: Quote from: David Chamberlain on May 30, 2018, 09:08:49 amSounds like we are on the same page. Yes, I meant interpreted model of the world, i.e. where all humans are classified as humans and so on.Quote from: David Chamberlain on May 30, 2018, 09:08:49 amExactly, the temptation to use the autopilot as if it was "autonomous mode" is just going to be irresistible to some.Quote from: wilfred on May 30, 2018, 09:14:33 amWaymo is already doing it: (can their cars be said to be more intelligent than an adult human?)Quotehttps://waymo.com/ontheroad/5 million miles, zero fatalities! (And as far as I know, not even any accidents that were caused by incorrect behaviour of the computer.) That is how it should be done.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 09:49:33 am
content: These life saving autopilot crashes are piling up quick it seems. Hopefully they can fix it before they bankrupt.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 10:03:17 am
content: Interesting viewpoint I heard from a psychiatrist, the less a person has to do in order to perform a task, the less attention the person will pay to that task.That is exactly what is going on here.So this is not a human compatible feature IMO , better make the car 100% autonomous without human intervention at all or make sure that the car checks regularly if the person is paying attention, if not disable the feature.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 10:40:03 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 30, 2018, 10:03:17 amBingo. This is why mass adoption of "Autopilot" type cars is a bad idea IMO. All or nothing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 11:12:58 am
content: Someone in a Telsa was fined for hoping into the passenger seat as it was drivinghttps://www.bbc.com/news/business-44159581?ocid=socialflow_twitterAnd that's the thing. The police can and do currently book you for non-attentive driving, hands off the wheel etcAutopilot and other tech will only make thatdrasticallyworse if adopted on a mass scale, and unless the laws change to allow it, this will limit the public uptake of such on that basis alone. No one wants to get busted by the cops.You can't use or look at your phone while driving, or read a book, or anything else distracting. So who's going to sit there and donothingwhile the autopilot takes over? The answer is n one can do that, your mind and concentration will wander into doing other things.I can't see then changing the laws in the foreseeable future to allow hands off the wheel / distracted driving, otherwise who are the cops supposed to tell if the person is using autopilot mode or not?Can you imagine them passing laws to let people or automous cars drive and use their phone at the same time? It would be game-on for every driver, autonomous mode or not. They won't do it.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 11:36:21 am
content: In assist mode the car should swerve at random some times to keep drivers aware that is isn't a self driving car.The Mercedes with lane assist has a little swerve sometimes, probably because it can't see enough lines, or the car in front moves a bit, it prevents full trust in the system.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 11:42:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 30, 2018, 11:12:58 amExactly. And who is going to shell out another $5K for the option knowing its going to require their full attention during the most boring ride ever. Willing to bet at some point they are going to have to change it so that it disables the moment someone takes their hands off the wheel. Then their you sit, tied to the machine doing absolutely nothing with a optional feature you shelled out good money for. Pointless.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 12:05:30 pm
content: There is another one, in May 27:Tesla Model 3 Autopilot accidents, now exported to Hellas(EN translation).Once more: Semi-smart technology for damned-stupid users...-George

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 12:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: A Hellene on May 30, 2018, 12:05:30 pmIs google translate toying with me?"The first Tesla Model 3 car accident in our country is a fact.It was celebratedon Friday night on the E65 highway near Florina""When the accident occurred, he touched the steering wheel with his left hand and, at the same time, he was looking at his mobile navigation system."Again, complacent and dicking around."The driver tried to communicate via the social media even with Elon Mask himself about the traffic, but he did not receive a reply."Must be his question was too boring LOL!

author: Kevman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 12:24:54 pm
content: GM had similar technology ready to deploy years ago, but saw this problem coming and delayed deployment until they had a good system to make sure you're paying attention. Tesla's system can be defeated with by shoving something heavy into the steering wheel.https://www.wired.com/2012/06/learning-to-let-the-car-drive/I'm sure Tesla saw this in testing too but decided to release anyway- after all, it's the owner's problem, right? Job #1 for Tesla was to look like we're ahead in the technology regardless of whether or not they are. That's innovation! GM took longer because they aren't innovative enough.And which company has more of a reputation for caring for people's safety?And yeah, I blame Tesla's marketing too. The Tesla people in the store told a friend of mine that "the car can drive itself.' This is technically true I guess since 'all cars come with the hardware for full self-driving.' Just because it can drive itself doesn't mean it can do it without supervision but I think that's very misleading.Of course some people don't agree.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 12:25:45 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on May 30, 2018, 12:17:47 pmNo! That was a specimen of Google's fine translation job!The actual translation of the whole paragraph above is:"The first Tesla Model 3 car accident in our country is a fact. It happened on Friday night on the E65 highway near Florina while the vehicle was on the Autopilot system."-George

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 12:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 30, 2018, 11:12:58 amCouple of weeks ago in the Volkskrant a dutch newspaper was an article about an architect working so many hours that he thinks he will not get old.He is driving from and to work each day in autopilot mode, he uses the time to read books and answer his emailsThis is how he was printed in a national newspaper, I hope they will take away his drivinglicence.https://www.volkskrant.nl/economie/verslag-van-een-krankzinnige-werkdag-altijd-maar-doorgaan-met-werk-tot-de-dood-erop-volgt~b47decbe/

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 01:34:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 30, 2018, 12:28:15 pmDriving like that he is likely right. Will get killed in a car crash long before getting old.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 02:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on May 30, 2018, 01:34:23 pmThat would be the positive scenario, the negative scenario is that he gets someone else killed

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 07:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 30, 2018, 10:03:17 amExactly. That's why I think every car should have a manual transmission. You have to DRIVE the car, there's no time for texting to whatever other bullshit these idiots do behind the wheel. Self help braking, self help cruise control, self help lane departure - everything like that conspires to make the 'drive' less and less attentive because "it will beep at me". Teslas do, when a situation arises that the 'autopilot' is not sure. But the driver in this case just ignored the beep and flashing instead of taking control - or else was so inattentive as to react far too slowly to prevent the crash.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 07:49:22 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 30, 2018, 01:49:12 amAt least the police arrived on time at the scene of the accident

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 07:59:50 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 30, 2018, 09:44:39 amWaymo, like Uber and others, are not really building self driving cars. They are building something much more like self driving trains. Trains not bound to a route by steel rails, but by a high precision map. If they go where no high precision map exists they are lost. If the world changes too much from the map they are lost.Tesla, like other current luxury car makers, offer something that can roam freely using a few basic heuristics about following lines and avoiding things that show up visually or on radar. These systems have very different strengths and weaknesses from the Waymo system.Before being too impressed by Waymo's claims I would need to see a LOT more information than they have published to date.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:02:46 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on May 30, 2018, 07:18:38 pmNever thought about it that way, but man I sure miss a manual trans. That was driving! Hard to even find that option on new cars.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on May 30, 2018, 08:02:46 pmYes, sitting in commute traffic with manual transmission is sure a blast.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on May 30, 2018, 08:02:46 pmIf you don't like machines doing the work for you, why not walk?

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:11:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 30, 2018, 08:04:16 pmSimple, don't have the acceleration with my feet to get that pleasant smell of burning rubber.Manual trans + horsepower = the perfect man-machine interface IMO.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 30, 2018, 08:04:00 pmEvery car I've owned for any length of time has a manual gearbox and I don't intend to change that. I don't find it to be a burden at all, shifting gears is like walking, I don't consciously think about the mechanical process, it just happens. Sitting in commute traffic is a drag no matter what, having to use both feet instead of just one foot is not much difference.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 08:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 30, 2018, 07:59:50 pmWaymo do seem to rely heavily on detailed map. I don't fully understand why but it's been suggested it's simply easier and therefore safer. Not sure about all the other teams though.It's not a big problem for Waymo because Google are already mapping all roads forGoogle Street Viewregularly, they just have to add more sensors to those cars and then they will have detailed maps of virtually everything.(And if you think about it, we also rely on internal maps kept in memory (to some extent) when we drive in a familiar area, so maybe it's not so strange after all.)Quote from: coppice on May 30, 2018, 07:59:50 pmIv'e been following their progress since the days of Stanley and I guess I have gained some trust in some of the people involved. I'm feeling quite confident they will surpass expectations. They don't seem to cut corners or rush things but keep playing it safe, and they are doing everything the same way I would have (based on my limited knowledge, but still). (Or maybe I'm just a bit of a fanboy?)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 09:09:14 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 30, 2018, 08:45:08 pmFrom talks you can find on YouTube, Waymo relies ENTIRELY on high res maps (I think its 11cm resolution), which are being produced by their own scanning systems. The Google Street View information is much lower resolution, and appears to be of no value for their self driving cars.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 10:05:55 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 30, 2018, 09:09:14 pmThere has to be some flexibility, there will always be noise and small changes from day to day and obviously they can't see all of the ground because there are obstacles blocking the view (other cars, pedestrians). At least they rely on the map to determine exactly where the car is (relative to the map), and probably to help distinguish temporary objects like cars and people.I guess it gives them a lot of advantages to have a reliable detailed map. If there is a pothole in the road they could mark it and the cars could automatically avoid it for a more comfortable ride; if it's an area outside a school, they could mark it as an area where the cars should slow down; etc.Quote from: coppice on May 30, 2018, 09:09:14 pmYes of course, it's still in the beta stage. That is why I said they would have to add the sensor suite necessary to create the waymo maps to the street view cars.. Would be strange if they wouldn't use the same car for both purposes. Anyway, the point is that Google has already proven they can do it when they want to.