QR codes for restaurant menus:  threat or menace? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 04:04:38 pm
content: Recently, supposedly to reduce contagion through infected paper menus, restaurants are adopting QR code systems for menu listings and ordering.An interesting article about how this tracks you, the consumer, in today's NY Times business section:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/26/technology/qr-codes-tracking.html

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 04:33:37 pm
content: The article is paywalled.I use a standalone QR code recognition app and always check the link. The places I go to with QR code menus just have the link to the same menu they already have online with no additional tracking stuff added to the URL. But they also have an option for a paper menu, you just need to ask for it.So, I guess if you care and don't want to encourage this behaviour, don't visit sketchy links and use publicly available menu.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 04:36:25 pm
content: Here is a link to a different source that quotes the NY Times article:https://www.laptopmag.com/news/restaurant-menu-qr-codes-may-be-tracking-you-and-invading-your-privacy-heres-howIncidentally, when I clicked on the NY Times article, it came up along with a solicitation for subscription, but gave the full text of the article.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 04:59:10 pm
content: It offered a free trial, but you needed to register with email. And NYT will not get my email.QuoteI'm not sure how that is possible. I can see how the link may include some tracking info, but nothing to that extent. If it asks you to install some app, that place can eff right off.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 05:55:34 pm
content: I once had to make a special request of the waiter to go fetch a printed menu (which he found in the basement), since I do not carry a smartphone with me.Had he refused, I would have left the restaurant.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 06:08:47 pm
content: It's slightly ironic that the New York Times wants me to create an account (so they can track and spam me, I assume) in order to read this article about a privacy threat.I second ataradov though: I assume the QR code simply leads me to a web page which shows the restaurant's menu. If multiple restaurants use the same QR code provider and if their websites place and evaluate cookies in my browser, I can see how that could be used to collect information about various restaurants I visited. But how would it convey what I ordered, what my phone number is and how I paid?

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 08:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 27, 2021, 06:08:47 pmJust another example of the NYT's double standards.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 08:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on July 27, 2021, 08:40:30 pmAs long as they don't try to kill me before granting me access to the police reports...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 08:58:02 pm
content: I subscribe to the print edition of the NY Times. You can find it at your public library.The article was specific about other "features" of the QR code applications for restaurants.Some allow you to order directly through the phone, and your information gets stored and the app tries to up-sell you "fries with that?" and suggest more expensive liquor in the cocktails.Just like Mouser and DigiKey (other for-profit companies), the capitalist press will often ask for your e-mail address when you order a good or service.Quoting an excerpt from the print edition:"But the spread of the codes has also let businesses integrate more tools for tracking, targeting, and analytics, raising red flags for privacy experts. That's because QR codes can store digital information such as when, where, and how often a scan occurs. They can also open an app or a website that tracks people's personal information or requires them to input it. As a result, QR codes have allowed some restaurants to build a database of their customers' order histories and contact information. ... 'People don't understand that when you use a QR code, it inserts the entire apparatus of online tracking between you and your meal,' said Jay Stanley, a senior policy analyst at the American Civil Liberties Union."

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:05:11 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 27, 2021, 08:58:02 pm'fraid not.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:07:24 pm
content: Further down in the long article, referring to "Mr Yum", a restaurant software vendor:"Orders placed through the QR code menu also let Mr Yum inform restaurants which items are selling so they can add a menu section with the most popular items or highlight items they want to sell. ... Mr Yum, for instance, uses cookies in the digital menu to track a customer's purchase history and gives restaurants access to that information, tied to the customer's phone number and credit cards. It is piloting software in Australia so restaurants can offer people a 'recommended to you' section based on their previous orders."It's all voluntary, of course.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 09:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 27, 2021, 09:05:11 pmI can find the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung at mine...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 10:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 27, 2021, 09:07:24 pmThis is the stupidest idea ever. A restaurant already knows what is selling from their menu. And what do they care what sells from other menus? Let's say tacos sell well, should an Italian restaurant put tacos on the menu? If you are so clueless as a restaurant owner to not know what sells, you will be out of business anyway.Quote from: TimFox on July 27, 2021, 09:07:24 pmThis implies installing apps. If restaurants agree to that technology, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 10:47:13 pm
content: The article does not imply that Mr Yum shares that information with other restaurants or with unsavory characters, but what stops other vendors from doing so without permission?I think that the “menu section with the most popular items” is just an additional section highlighting the most popular items from the whole menu, not from across the street.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 11:44:00 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 27, 2021, 10:47:13 pmGiven how badly restaurants have been hit during the pandemic, it would unfortunately be logical that they looked for new ways of making money to make up for it.And customers won't win.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2021, 11:45:50 pm
content: Also, ways to reduce labor costs.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 01:25:57 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 27, 2021, 04:59:10 pmThere are free services out there that will give you a "burner" email address that either forwards to your real email or lets you receive confirmation links in a web interface, then after some time that address expires. Works great for this sort of thing.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 02:00:07 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 28, 2021, 01:25:57 amI know. I have one setup for my own domain so that it does not appear in any blacklists of such services. I just don't care so spend any more time than necessary to open a page on a clearly nothing story.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 03:36:07 am
content: That's OK--you can open the free page on the site that I posted for your convenience when I found out about the paywall and get a summary of the article.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 06:32:32 am
content: Another danger of scanning random QR codes in the restaurants -https://imgur.com/gallery/ox3EQ30

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 06:55:39 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 27, 2021, 04:59:10 pmThe NY Times has my email address, because I subscribe to the digital edition of the paper.But it's trivial to get around the paywall. Really.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 06:57:03 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 28, 2021, 06:32:32 amThat comes really close to hello.jpg.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 11:08:07 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 27, 2021, 04:04:38 pmSARS-Cov-2 mostly spreads throught the air, rather than contaminated surfaces. The risk of infection through paper menus is tiny. If they really want to minimise infection: open the windows, keep people apart and get everyone to wear masks, when they're not at their tables, but that won't be so popular. It sounds like a good excuse to market something, for data collection.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 11:51:27 am
content: I had this before. Went to an open air pub like a year ago, it had to be that, everything else was closed. The orders were only accepted online. You had to scan a code and pay. I went to the bar and tried to order a beer, they told me they cannot serve me, I have to order online.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 12:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 28, 2021, 11:51:27 amI hope they had wi-fi, otherwise it would rule me out, as I don't have a data plan, because I have no use for one.I've heard similar stories in the UK. The main complaint is it discriminates against the elderly who are less likely to have a phone and more often than not hang around in pubs, because it's the only place they can go to meet others.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 12:54:51 pm
content: I also don't have a data plan on my phone, because I don't want yet another $20/month subscription to care about for something I might want to use every few months. I have a prepaid SIM that I top up with about $15 once a year, that's how much I use my phone (for phone stuff).

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 02:25:09 pm
content: I have a payg data sim in my phone but the last thing I want to be doing in a restraunt is playing with my phone and qr codes if they cannot have a printed menue I am out of there and will be going elsewhere. I turn my phone off in such places so as not get disturbed or disturb others.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 03:38:36 pm
content: I agree. The only time I have been presented with the QR code as mandatory (instead of voluntary), I was prepared to leave if the waiter couldn't find me a printed menu. This was out of town, when I was traveling often for family reasons, and the restaurant had adopted this new policy during roughly 10 days since my previous visit there.Someone pointed out that menus are an unlikely source of contagion: I think this is true. At the beginning of the plague, when little was known about it, it was thought that it was transmitted like other known diseases and there was an emphasis on surfaces. Later, after actual research, the airborne droplet route became the preferred theory. (Theory is not guesswork.)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 03:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 28, 2021, 03:38:36 pmI volunteer at Riding for the Disabled and there's still a lot of emphasis on cleaning things. It's funny how some people haven't moved with the science.I remember when it first started, lots of people wore gloves in the supermarket, which I always thought was silly. Masks were also not recommended, for some reason. Then the government made a U-turn mandating masks, which some people disagreed with, but plenty of people still wear masks, even though they're no longer legally required.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 03:59:02 pm
content: Early on, there was emphasis on how long the virus could stay viable on different surfaces, and there are other pathogens where surface transmission is important, so cleanliness in a medical or food facility is still important.With more research, emphasis changed to ventilation and masking to reduce airborne transmission by droplets and aerosols.Before the plague, I often attended a Shakesperean theater in Chicago with a thrust stage and strong stage lighting. When an actor delivered a strong speech (with those powerful Shakesperean insults), the saliva droplets flying meters away from his mouth were clearly visible in the lights. The theaters in Chicago intend to open sort-of normally again around October--I hope that the current surge of cases amongst the unvaccinated can be arrested.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 04:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 28, 2021, 03:49:30 pmThat's pretty much the same all around the world, at least in the western world.All this coming from the WHO, governments and "specialists" constantly giving changing and contradictory directives, many of which not being based on real science.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 04:34:24 pm
content: Note that "real science" often changes its mind based on additional evidence, while ideology remains fixed on its axioms.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 06:25:08 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 28, 2021, 03:59:02 pmI never really understood the rational for the emphasis on cleaning surfaces. Right from the beginning, it was evident it's a respiratory virus, like influenza, the common cold and the original SARS, which all spread through the air, rather than smallpox and polio, which transmit via surfaces. I can see why masks were controversial, because the virus is so small, but to me it makes sense to wear one, as the droplets the virus is attached to are relatively large. I think the authorities were worried about people buying up all the masks, leaving none for clinicians, hence why they advised against themOne important thing people need to do, if they wear a mask, make sure it's clean, otherwise it does increase the risk of other respiratory infections. Not enough emphasis has been placed on the need to regularly change the mask for a clean one. It's extremely important.Unfortunately cases will quite likely increase in October, unless more people are vaccinated and even then, it will probably still happen, but it will be milder, in those who have had the jab.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 06:48:08 pm
content: The authorities' original reason to recommend against masking was due to a serious shortage of "PPE", and the unmet need for medical workers: there are numerous horror stories of unprotected medical workers early in the plague.Clean masks are essential, as you say: I have heard other horror stories of fungal infections in lungs due to unclean masks. The difference between microscopic viruses and more macroscopic droplets was not appreciated by the public early in the plague.Looking at the local statistics (State of Illinois), we reached a local minimum with a test-positive rate of only 0.6% in mid-June, about a week after a "re-opening" of the State and increased indoor activity after a substantial increase in immunization as the vaccine supply became available to larger groups. Since then, it has increased monotonically: today's (seven-day average) is just over 4%, the level last seen in April on its way down from a local peak of 4.5% shortly after Easter. In most jurisdictions in the US, a huge fraction (roughly 95%) of Covid hospitalizations is of un-vaccinated patients. This did not have to be this bad, but politics was entangled with the response to masks and vaccines.Recent news indicates a shift in political attitudes in favor of vaccination, but it's not clear how far down into the population this attitude has gone. One satirical suggestion is that the current administration should ban vaccination, and then the politically-inclined would demand it.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 07:43:01 pm
content: So however this thread has so quickly gone CoVID, i will try to steer it back on topicI am sure, online only menu cards would have appeared sooner or later anyway:You dont have to print menus, only small cards, therefore it's cheaperYou can change availability on the fly.You can change prices on the fly.You can even change prices depending on the user's device.You can gather a lot of information about the user, especially if the user has to use an appBut call me old fashioned: A restaurant without the ability to order offline would be one i would not visit.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 07:59:40 pm
content: I agree. I don't mind when modern high-tech trendy solutions are added that are convenient for many people who wish to use them.However, when spending my own money I prefer straightforward solutions that do not depend on my purchasing or carrying expensive equipment with me.The reason I posted the original article is that I think most people don't realize the possibilities of what seems like a simple document access through a smart phone.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 09:03:30 pm
content: A lot of the advantages of not having paper menus can be accomplished, without phones and the Internet. The menu can be displayed on screens around the restaurant, as has been the case in fast food places for a long time. Heck, I even remember pubs often used to write the menu on a blackboard and still often do that for one day specials, which aren't on the printed menus.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 09:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on July 28, 2021, 07:43:01 pmWell, one of the points of going to a restaurant is human interaction. It's not just about the food. Otherwise you just order the same food and eat at home or anywhere you like.So it's not just about being old fashioned: it's about changing restaurants into automated canteens. Whether you find this progress or not is up to you.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2021, 09:58:14 pm
content: An important point about the modern QR-code apps is that they are used to place the order and pay the bill, not just to read the menu. (Disintermediation?)Old-fashioned posted menus are great, so long as they are readable, especially for places that have daily specials or changing menus. Well-designed screens are a suitable modern equivalent to slates.When I was a lad, New York City had the Horn and Hardart "Automats" for cafeteria-style fast-food dining, where the plated items were behind small glass doors activated (vertically) by dropping coins into the slot (back when coins could still buy food in the US). Behind the doors were the cooks who prepared the food and loaded the little chambers. One comedian referred to a deceased friend, who didn't realize you were supposed to remove the food before eating, and suffered a broken neck when the door fell down. The fictional composer PDQ Bach wrote a concerto for horn and hardart. But I digress...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2021, 08:39:29 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on July 28, 2021, 07:43:01 pmOh, I like that. So they could increase the price based on the purchase power of the user.Kinda like, when you asked for a menu in a foreign language, the prices printed on it are inflated. Or the exchange rate is 10% worse. And now we can all do that digitally. You can outsource all these chores to a firm, specializing in exploiting people for their money, using big data and borderline illegal practices.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2021, 06:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 29, 2021, 08:39:29 amThey could. Of course, said app could also keep notifying you with offers and menus you'd be supposed to enjoy based on their algorithms.Restaurants could also get a commission for giving access to their customers' data.Over time, the system could also send your "eating profile" to your health insurance company. Just in case. Possibilities are endless.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2021, 09:40:23 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 29, 2021, 06:22:26 pmOr even better, start publicly shame you because you don't eat vegan. I mean how dare you.Imagine what you can do with someone's bar tab. "Johnny, 11 beers and Vodka every Friday? Johnny you have a problem, and we cannot take you as a liability. We have to let you go."