Dropping out of final year uni for a full time industry position - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AshW
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 08:55:28 am
content: Hi everyone,I am in my final year of study in a Bachelor's of electronics in Australia and am currently interning at a startup of around a dozen people as an electronics engineer (the startup has doubled in size in twelve months and I believe it will do so again in the next twelve). I have been offered a full time position with a graduate salary but the position is full time only and I will have to either defer my studies or not return.My main concern is that the business may essentially lock me in as I may be unable to get a job elsewhere without my degree, I also worry that it may affect my ability to receive a raise in future with the company as I might be told that I'm not a qualified engineer so it is not warranted.Generally speaking, after a few years of full time work, how necessary to future job prospects is a Bachelor's degree in Australia?Any help or opinions are greatly appreciated!

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:03:15 am
content: Unless they are offering you an actual share in the firm, perhaps even options, and you're so confident in them that you're willing to take that risk, personally, I would not do this at all.You say they are offering you a graduate salary, is that it? That's not a lot of risk on their end, compared to what you're risking.Odds are, after a few years working elsewhere after you have your degree, you'll never look back.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:16:48 am
content: Quote from: AshW on January 10, 2025, 08:55:28 amThe cynic in me thinks they want to get you onboard without the bachelor’s so they can later pay you less for not having a degree, and that they intend to work you like a dog.An employer that wants you there for the long run will encourage your personal development, and letting you finish the degree, either before joining or on the side, ideally helping you pay for it.I suppose there are the “startup types” of people who think everyone can be a Steve Jobs or Zuckerberg and do without a degree, but to expect that from your employees is selfish, IMHO.If you were in your first or second year, it might be worth a thought, since your investment in the education wouldn’t be that big. But in the last year? I wouldn’t.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:30:28 am
content: I graduated 40 years ago and certainly after the first job  I've never had a prospective employer ask me if I have a degree, what degree it was, what the major was, or what my grades were.On the other hand I've never wanted to work in government institutions. They might care. But even with them I suspect that five years experience is worth more than a Bachelor's or even Master's degree anyway. Maybe not at a university or government research organisation. I honestly don't know since those places have never interested me.The people I know who do care about having a degree is the immigration authority in various countries. I think it would have been difficult or maybe even impossible for me to get a US H-1B visa (2001), Russian "Highly Qualified Specialist" visa  (2015), and US H-1B (2019). I don't think those cared what the degree was in, just that it was an accredited 3+ year degree.You would also find it difficult to immigrant here in New Zealand without a degree. and not even that because it was a summer job that turned into a permanent offer on the basis of the results I was achieving. I actually dropped out to take the job, though I was dropping out of Master's and already had Batchelor's. essentially the same thing: 3 years, can renew once then either leave or take residence, minimum salary level (2 million Rubles/year), labour market test.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:43:16 am
content: I would stick with the degree. Whilst in 10 years employers will probably not care that much about your degree, you may find it very hard to get another job if the startup sacks you a year later. Remember 90% of startup businesses fail within 3 years.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:48:26 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 09:43:16 amIf the startup sacks you a year later:1) you can easily go back to finish the degree2) ... with a year of savings3) ... and practical experience that can both motivate you, and probably give inspiration for a topic for a final year project (if any)

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 10:02:04 am
content: Quote from: AshW on January 10, 2025, 08:55:28 amFor two equal candidates for a job, one with a diploma and the other a dropout, the one with the diploma will be hired.Also, if hired, a dropout will be always less payed than one with a diploma. You'll be paid less until the day you die, because chances to finish study after getting a full time job are close to zero.My advice is don't even think to quit now, finish school!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 10:10:17 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 10, 2025, 09:48:26 amSo instead of quitting university do a year in industry, and go back to the degree at the end. Most universities support that as an option, I did a 'sandwich course' at mine. One year in industry between years 2-3 of my Masters course.Having a degree has materially improved my career prospects in the UK, I wouldn't have got my last job without one, they were very clear in the interview that they did not hire people without degrees. Now you could argue that is silly but it is a fact at least in most of the world that a degree is essential for many higher professional positions.There is also the benefit if OP wants to emigrate, as many countries will recognise a Bachelor's or Master's on visa applications as "points" towards getting a residency permit. If you want to leave Australia that is, I'd only leave if scared of spiders.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 10:17:52 am
content: Congratulations on thinking before acting; that's strategic "engineer thinking"Reasons to stay at university:if you don't, it willforeverlook like you are a fly-by-night quitterthere are many theoretical things it is much easier to learn at university, many of which ought to last you a lifetime (they have mine!)conversely many things you pick up at work have a half-life of a few years (e.g. details of a particular MCU or toolset)the practical things that ought not to be taught at university you will be able to pick up while doing your jobswhile not all startups fail, that's the way to bet. What happens to you thereafter?even your experience to date at the startup will help you get your first job after university. Companies will like your ability to talk about life in the workplace, and be impressed you were asked to stayandturned them down for solid strategic reasonsSo, as others have said: stay at universityEDIT: add being able to emigrate often requires you to demonstrate you can do things a native can't. Having a degree - and often a higher degree - can be a precondition for passing immigration barriers.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 10:27:04 am
content: Quote from: AshW on January 10, 2025, 08:55:28 amIn Australia your qualifications usually go to the bottom of your resume, most employers are only interested in what you can do, not where you got a bit of paper from, or even if you have one.There are of course exceptions to this in protected or regimented industires like government, medical, academic etc.And of course YMMV in other countries, where not only do they care if you have the bit of paper, they care where it's from.Having said that, if you are in your final year then just finish it. Jobs are a dime a dozen.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 10:38:14 am
content: It used to be a degree had little relevance after your first few years working. However, these days you need to watch out for HR roadblocks. Many employers now only pass on CVs to a department which is recruiting which have been pre-vetted by HR. HR have some terrible criteria for tossing out the best applicants, and "no degree" can be one of them. I have experienced this, and many others have told me similar stories. HR pass on useless CVs, which you reject. You have a go at HR and demand to see all the CVs, and you find various candidates who look really promising. If you can sustain employment by networking, and being a known quantity by some people recruiting, you may be able to bypass HR roadblocks, but they can be a major problem.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 10:43:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 10, 2025, 10:27:04 amFor interesting jobs, what you can do often depends on having the relevanttheoreticalknowledge.I've seen too many people spent too long trying to do X and failing - because X is impossible.We've all seen systems (especially large-scale computerised systems) which sort-of-work most of the time, but screw up nastily "randomly". E.g. yes, the Byzantine Generals and Dining Philosophers and Split Brains theoretical concepts do affect us all.QuoteUseful observation.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 10:51:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 10, 2025, 10:27:04 amSure, jobs are a dime a dozen, but good jobs are really hard to find.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:16:35 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 10, 2025, 10:51:41 amPlenty of employers willing to pay minimum wage for an engineering grad. And plenty of employers wondering why no one wants to go into engineering.Thankfully, the market is a lot better once you get beyond those first few years, but seeing some grad salaries around here, you wonder why anyone bothers.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:21:01 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 10, 2025, 10:51:41 amTrue.To echo other people's points, given HR-droids general lack of communication nowadays, it can be very difficult to determinewhya CVwasn'tgood enough for you to be invited for an interview.At the earlypre-screeningstage done by idiots (recruitment pimps or HR droids) or ML systems, if you have two CVs with/without a degree then which would you choose?

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:33:54 am
content: Without knowing the specifics of the "offer", the no-brainer answer is get your degree, which is pretty much the chorus of this thread.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:38:45 am
content: Is it possible to study the course part time? If so, then perhaps you can get a full time job and complete the remainder of course over several years? If not, then stay at school to complete the course.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:43:23 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 10, 2025, 11:38:45 amI wonder if he has even talked to the university about the possibility of deferment? Some seem open to people going away for a year or two, and then returning to complete their final years. Others are not so open. A deferment would open the option of trying the job, and completing the degree if it doesn't work out.

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:46:01 am
content: Please o please; finish your education and do not step into that trap of HR that is offering you a job now.(And can fire you a few days later).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:50:37 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 10, 2025, 11:38:45 amIndeed, and I think that if they really want you, a good employer — whether startup or established — will work with you to find an equitable solution.“Either drop out of school and join us now, or fuck off” is to me not a good sign.If they really like you, they’d say “we’d love to have you now, but we understand about finishing uni, and we’d love to have you come in a year”, or “we’d love to have you join us now, would you be amenable to finishing uni on the side?” or even something like “we’d love to have you now, and for this initial [insert duration here] sprint we really need someone working 60-80h/week, so school on the side won’t be possible, but we commit to letting you return to school after the sprint is over, with our full support.”

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:54:31 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2025, 11:50:37 amHe said its a startup. These are not places in a good position to be making long term employment plans, and they need a lot of commitment from the people they hire right now.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:17:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 10, 2025, 10:51:41 amIn this case the OP is not even getting any extra benefits (like a vested share interest) above normal graduate salary. So unless it's something super interesting and unique, my money is on dime-a-dozen.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:20:50 pm
content: Quote from: AshW on January 10, 2025, 08:55:28 amYour concern is well founded.If they cared about you they'd want you to finish your degree. it's clear that all they care about is getting a known quantity (because you have interned for them) instead of an untested graduate, at the expense of your education. Don't fall for it.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:20:59 pm
content: 95% all tech startups fail in 2..5 yrs.Suggest to check the history and track record of the founders/staff, and competiton of the offered work.No normal job offering to an EE would demand they drop out of finisheng a univ. degree.GET THE DEGREE FIRST, then look for workJon (EE since 68' )

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:23:29 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 10, 2025, 11:43:23 amI think you might find that statistically, the number of those who defer thier education and never return, is high. Too easy to fall into the "just another year" trap.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 10, 2025, 11:54:31 amI have no sympathy for startups that use “but we’re a startup!” as justification to work people hard yet give little back.IMHO any serious business needs to be planning a few years out, anyway, whether startup or established.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:40:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 10, 2025, 12:23:29 pmThat is what many people say. In my case, though, it was the best decision. I was kinda burnt out from school, and didn’t reeeeeallly know what I wanted to do. I took 2 years off and went back to school with focus and resolve.So while I absolutely agree that people need to watch out and make sure they actually return, taking time off can also be hugely beneficial.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:53:01 pm
content: A Degree is like a Calibration Certificate or Certificate of Compliance which gives the user (company) confidence in the instruments (you) minimum performance. An instrument (you) that comes with these Certificates (Degrees) commands a higher price (Salary & Benefits).If you look at graduates and integrate the $ over their career it almost always favors those with degrees, and the higher the degree the more total $ accrued.Best

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:03:43 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on January 10, 2025, 01:53:01 pmThat is based on historic data. Recent studies in Europe and America now find that in an era where Bachelor degrees are commonplace, only those with a degree in a well paid discipline will see a financial payback. Electronics may be one of them right now, but who knows what will happen over the next 20 or 30 years. I saw a recent study that said the average IQ of people going to American universities has fallen to 103. A huge number of college students are just people of average ability these days, and there's only so much the average person can get from even the best education.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:27:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 10, 2025, 02:03:43 pmPart of the problem is too many people have been told to go to university instead of doing vocational studies or just going directly into work, which is leading to vast numbers of useless degrees. This is fuelled by many companies asking for degrees when they aren't relevant; up until recently, policing required a degree, any degree, regardless of its applicability to the field. It is effectively a very expensive intelligence test.Engineering is generally not a useless degree whereas something like art history is - we do still needsomeart historians, we just don't anywhere near as many as we get every year given there are very limited places for the application of those skills. In the UK there are at least 41 universities offering just this degree. There are hundreds more useless degrees. Meanwhile people studying the things we really need, engineering, medicine, mathematics, etc. have mostly flatlined in growth, since offering these courses is very expensive compared to a degree like art history which consists almost entirely of lectures.I suspect if you strip the "bullshit degrees" out from your statistic you would find the average graduate is firmly in the upper third of the IQ curve.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:34:36 pm
content: Finish your degree. There is no any certainty what may happen to that company in a few months. Returning later to finish the degree is going to be difficult. Your brain will slowly lose the ability to memorize which is essential for studying, and your priorities in life and livng circumstances may change, making it even more difficult than today.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:34:42 pm
content: One other thing that just came to mind: in addition to missing out on the degree itself, you also miss out on whatever is taught in the last year. So even if you earn the same starting salary as someone with the degree, you’re missing a lot of knowledge they learned. That could become an issue later on, simply due to not having the foundation knowledge needed for a projector for learning about something more advanced.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 02:27:09 pmWhat you say is broadly true, but you can't compare the non-bullshit graduates of today with those of 50 years ago. 50 years ago those graduating in engineering disciplines did the more advanced high value work, and low level stuff was handled by people who went to polytechnics and other places offering lower qualifications. Now everything is handled by someone with a degree, most of whom have accumulated quite a lot of student debt. However, the actual jobs haven't changed in nature, and those doing the technician grade work are still getting technician grade pay.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 03:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 10, 2025, 02:03:43 pmOur comment was in reference to a technical degree, or more specific Engineering Degree, and hope the IQ levels are a little higher.Back during our career we used a more technical IQ term which related directly to the field involved and used EEUs (Equivalent Engineering Units) to estimate or quote the task at hand. An EEU was what anaverageElectrical Engineer with a Masters Degree could do in an hour within their field of expertise. Of course this was totally speculative as what "average" is, but did give a somewhat reference to compare, and over the years we honed the "average". However our situation involved advanced research (DARPA hard type) and often attempting what was generally considered not possible, and our customers were quite demanding and often some of the brightest in the field, so this was not a typical environment, very stressful, and not BS survivable!!Best

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 03:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on January 10, 2025, 09:48:26 amTech startups are a dime a dozen. You can graduate first and then find a different startup with a great project to work on.My strong recommendation would be to get the degree. Not so much for the degree itself but for the knowledge dispensed. Most degree-less engineers I worked with lacked the education to make full use of their talent which is a pity.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 03:47:19 pm
content: Two questions I'd ask.First, how easy or difficult will it be for you to return to school after 1-2 years? That's considering both university policies and your own personal situation and any other relevant factors.Second, how compelling is the job offer and the company? If it is something you really enjoy doing and the company makes you a decent offer with equity, then that's different than just a regular job with no real perks doing grunt work. There's a 90% chance you won't be there in two years anyway.Perhaps you can negotiate for some equity or other perks--if they say no you can just continue school. I wouldn't take the job unless you really want it.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 04:01:34 pm
content: BTW if you are really good at a particular field maybe the company will cover your school costs. We had a colleague that got his PhD covered (all living and related tuition costs) by agreeing to work for another 2 years.Best

author: bte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 07:51:22 pm
content: I don't see a lot of good intent if a startup has doubled in size in 12 months, will likely double again in the next 12, yet they cannot wait for you to get a degree. A lot of veterans have already provided valuable insight. I will just write a bit about my case as another data point.I do have BS/MS EE degrees but never did EE work professionally. In the second year of my MS degree (25+ years ago), I interviewed a very famous software company from US (the one in the NW). The outcome was favorable but there was this big condition that I had to complete my MS degree (completing the MS study took months after that). It also came with the perk that my starting salary was 20% higher. Keep in mind that I wasn't the one to negotiate it. However, same year, they hired other people as well and these folks whom I became colleagues with later on indicated they could initially negotiate some raise from what was offered. I don't know how they pulled it off but apparently it is possible.It also helped a lot that my MS thesis involved the EU project which our university were chairing at the time. Basically my software development work throughout the MS degree got me the job. However, initially they did not find my software development skills quite up to par, so offered me a software tester position, which I accepted. It was a quick jump to software development after some months and I found that experience -no matter how short- to be quite useful for the rest of my career.Another example of proper etiquette would be the company that I did one of my summer internships at: They liked my work a lot and offered me a job but only after getting the BS degree. Granted, this was not a startup company but still, I do think it is a good example of showing proper approach.Here, one type of industry that will scrutinize your CV for your graduation university and your GPA is military. They have quite strong prejudices (which university and what GPA) and unless you can show counter arguments to break those prejudices, it is simply not possible to get through the first stage of interview. You may ask why one would care about the military industry. It is just that they are one of the few places where actual EE work is done. If you are keen on doing "real" EE work here, you are limited in your choices. Maybe your country is different. This may also not apply if you change careers (like I did). My professor used to say "if you become an EE, you can do anything you want".In short, without them clearly explaining the rush, I don't see how this can turn out to be in your best interest. Anything they offer should be in writing that has legal enforcement in your locality. Otherwise, they may back off and you might be the one doing recovery work at an unfortunate time.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 08:34:09 pm
content: not sure how it is in Australia, but a finished degree counts towards your pension more than a non-finished degree in Finland.It's a bachelor, surely you can finish it while doing full-time work. Final year is pretty much "just the thesis" anyway, no?Never mind, if a bachelor degree is necessary in AUS, or for that company that is so desperately trying to make you drop out. You are at the very start of your career and surely this is not the last company you will work for. Maybe not even the last country you will work in. I would recommend to get the degree. You are in the door already, don't let that effort go to waste so easily.edit: going back to finish a degree is not as easy as just finishing it right away. Not only do you forget stuff and are more 'busy with life' etc., also the university laws may make your course credits expire, or a curriculum may change. Be very very sure you know they don't before you drop out.