What do you guys use to program avrs under OSX/Linux??? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 03:27:59 am
content: What do you guys use to program avrs under OSX/Linux???Since AVR studio doesnt work in linux/osxWhat are you guys using??This is what im using, but not sure if im been efficient enoughOSX:Compiler: CrossPack by Objective developmentAnd a text editor like vimLinux:avrdudeand a text editor like vimIs there an IDE for OSX/Linux that work with AVRS??

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 03:40:43 am
content: I hear a lot of people use GCC. But i have not used it myself.Regards

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 03:47:11 am
content: Quote from: PeterG on June 22, 2012, 03:40:43 amIf you've used AVRStudio version 5 or winavr, then you've used GCCQuote from: SuperMiguel on June 22, 2012, 03:27:59 amA quick google should find lots of IDE options.Pretty much all the linux IDE's are generic and will work with any compiler. You just add "tools" to the menu system, which can be any other application but most often command line tools (like gcc/make etc).Often the output is redirected to a window of the IDE, so you get all the output from the compiler right in the IDE as you would expect.Some of the IDEs are not language specific because they're really just a text editor and you can setup different colors for whatever words you like.The real issue is debugging (if you need it), not all editors support inline debugging for all platforms.Unless it's stock JTAG the IDE needs to support the particular platform your using.

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 04:12:17 am
content: Quote from: PeterG on June 22, 2012, 03:40:43 amGCC lets u create a hex? to later upload it to a controller?

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 04:13:45 am
content: Quote from: Psi on June 22, 2012, 03:47:11 amYa i know there are alot of IDEs, but i was looking for something like avr studio that lets u write/compile/upload code to a microcontroller... I havent found anything like it..

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 04:26:24 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on June 22, 2012, 03:27:59 amHere we go again. In a real software project the "typing in the code" part is so small, compared to all the rest, it just doesn't matter. The average number of lines of code per day a programmer produces is shockingly small. An IDE does not increase your efficiency.That is, when we talk about quality code, in non-toy applications, designed, fully tested, etc. Then you end up with numbers like 10 to 100 lines of code per day. Yes, per day. If necessary you could do that with a chisels on a piece of stone. Your fancy fucking IDE does not speed up that little bit of typing by any relevant number.Now, this is of course the moment, where a bunch of code monkeys jump up and shout they can do more, much more. Sure, they can. They are code monkeys, not engineers. Maybe they can do a few thousand lines a day. But not quality code. Not designed. Not fully tested. Trivial code. Not in a real software project, where they aren't the sole hero code monkey. Not for something they haven't coded before.If you find a programmer who can't program without an IDE and/or claims huge performance improvements because of using a particular IDE you have found an idiot.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 04:27:08 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on June 22, 2012, 04:13:45 amThat's my point, in linux you don't have one program that does everything itself like in windows.The editor/ide connects all your tools together into what "seems" like one complete IDE but it's really just calling other programs in the background. (like the gcc compiler)You set this up yourself to use whatever tools you want.For example you might have an editor/ide in linux and add two new buttons into the tool menuButton one runs the external program "make" with any command line parameters needed to compile your program.Button two runs the external program "avrdude" with parameters to upload your compiled hex onto your ATmega.etc..When you click either button it "seems" as though its all part of the IDE because the program is executed inside the IDE log window.So you see any compiler errors and the progress as your HEX is uploaded.

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 04:48:33 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on June 22, 2012, 04:26:24 amwhat do you use? vim?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:41:57 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on June 22, 2012, 04:26:24 amIt's not that simple, sure you can use any old text editor but if it's annoying as hell because..- Things aren't colored the way you find easy on the eyes, or easy to read, and the IDE won't let you change it. (remember, your staring at it most of the day)- The IDE search/replace function is appalling- There are too many windows all over the place or everything is crammed into one single window- There are no easy to use keyboard shortcuts and you have to do most things with the mouseetc.. there are literally thousands of things that really annoy people.Then, although you *can* do your work, it's so bloody annoying and painful that you get so stressed and your productivity goes down the toilet.A good IDE isn't strictly needed but a bad IDE definitely takes all the fun out of coding and slows you down significantly.While a coder may only produce 10-100 lines of code per day they actually type out many orders of magnitude more than that due to reordering, fixing bugs and trying many different ways of coding something before they find the best approach that works.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 07:21:44 am
content: no i dont work with notepad while coding a program. and i dont know how to edit makefile to build my program. i just hit rebuild, compile and run button in IDE, and then F8, F10, F11 etc in sequences. and most importantly, a good documentation on the IDE and the compiler (toolset). and i believe color coded scheme has saved me from eye blindness and mental retardation for this long. and yeah, i just recently get acquainted with programmer's notepad (must be a reason for its existence), the color scheme is just fabolous than anything else i've ever seen.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 01:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on June 22, 2012, 04:26:24 amSo, according to you, companies like Lauterbach, Greenhills, Arm, Keil , Iar , American Arium are all staffed by idiots ? Because you can do everything with vi and a command line compiler ? Right?Please care to explain how you put a breakpoint in your code ? How you trace it ? How you examine memory locations ? How you place watchpoints ? How you profile a routine ? How you trap i terrupt handlers ? Let alone navigate the compiler output and trace back to the code.. Like solving warnings and errors.For any kind of serious work you NEED an IDE because your 'notepad' and 'chisel' can't do any of that ...Your concept of IDE is completely misguided. It is not just a text editor with a shortcut to launch the compiler. Serious IDE's have team features like code check-in and out , version control. Scheduled compilation. And when it comes to debugging and testing the code you can't go without...

author: DavidJRobertson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 03:48:05 pm
content: I like to use the Code::Blocks IDE (http://www.codeblocks.org/).You'll need to also have installed avr-gcc, avr-libc and avrdude (or equiv. packages) at the minimum from your Linux distro's package system.

author: paf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 05:11:14 pm
content: Another IDE versus command line thread!:-(A guy called Jerry Avins has this signature: "Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.".So, when programming what do you want (or need)?A nice editor with syntax checking (colors!) and that places the cursor on the errors?Vim and emacs can do it... They have evolved.Do you want to learn something that will still work 20 years from now?Command line!Version control also works on the command line...Makefiles ( just a little bit of learning, for small makefiles ) will simplify many tasks.When debugging a graphical IDE is nice, but gdb has the "tui" interface, and many graphical interfaces.Why should you care about the Unix command line?You can have one if you install Linux on a PC, on the terminal of OSX, under the graphical interface of Android, and perhaps on the cheap wireless router you have at home.Yes, graphical IDEs can be comfy. They look very nice and are very useful for debugging.But, can you run them all your present and future computers?And when the bugs are really hairy, you will not need a graphical interface.You will need programmable tools, to get that strange case that happens once in a blue moon.All the command line tools are programmable...Why not know both?My best regardspaf

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:38:44 pm
content: Quote from: paf on June 22, 2012, 05:11:14 pmBut why make your life hard ? install the ide and everything is right there. nicely tied together and supported by the manufacturer.If your way of command line cruft was so brilliant we surely would not need things lik RVDS from ARM. Or the Keil / Lauterbach / greenhills stuff...We'd all be pounding away on a 40 colums by 25 lines Vt52 terminal hooked up, via a 75 baud modem, to a punch card driven time share system with reel to reel tape for offline backup and using steel pianowire in a loop as rotational memory. We'd all be wearing suspenders , pocket protectors and long grey beard...Who'd need things like the great crap compiler (gcc) . Just use 5 bit baudot code on a teletype and write the mnemonics directly in octal notation into the memory of your Pile-Dog-Poo-11 or 8.As for 20 years from now.. i won't even dare to speculate what computers will look like then. i do know that it won't be command line driven shit. And i wouldn;t mention crap like that on a resume either... Last job request i saw requires knowledge of real debugging environments. not command line driven 'glue'.

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:51:50 pm
content: You can tell who in this thread has never worked on a big software project.Those that have will know thatallbig projects need makefiles to build the project.Those that haven't think that all they need is an IDE. Only rinky-dink projects can get away without using makefiles.Try building a multi-million line project of hundreds of binaries (and don't forget their interdependencies) composed of hundreds-of-thousands of project files from the IDE.

author: Gall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:56:02 pm
content: My way:vim code.cavr-gcc -Os -mmcu=atmega16 -o code.elf code.cavr-objcopy -O ihex code.elf code.hexuisp -dprog=dasa2 -dlpt=/dev/ttyS0 --eraseuisp -dprog=dasa2 -dlpt=/dev/ttyS0 --download if=code.hexuisp -dprog=dasa2 -dlpt=/dev/ttyS0 --verify if=code.hex

author: Gall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 07:00:42 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on June 22, 2012, 06:41:57 amNot true in case of Linux text editors.Editors like vim, emacs, gedit have perfect syntax highlighting for most programming languages, search, code completion and so on. In fact, they ARE versatile integrated environments.I'm a professional software developer. Most of my work I do in vim. I'm writing literally 10000s lines of C++ code in it. It is very convenient once you learn to use it properly.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 07:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 22, 2012, 01:18:15 pmAll of this can be done without an IDE.Please sit back and realise that the vast majority of this forum does not have a budget running into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 08:57:57 pm
content: Plenty of free and cheap ide's around. so don't give me the 'billion dollar cost argument'. Avrstudio is free. so , why go the hard way ? because it's fun ? because you like mucking with the software install more than trying to get the actual board running ?IDE is short for Integrated Development Environment... I dont understand where this hate for a ready made tool comes from. Just plonk it on the computer and it works out of the box. off you go .. be productive .. have fun.@terminaljack : using an IDe does not preclude the usage of makefiles .... And by the way. a collection of buildscripts and a code editor can also be called an IDE.We use a backend compiler that runs a buildscript to release the binary.Code is written in an IDE for the arm processor (RVDS) . Compilation is done with files pulled from the server. Binary is loaded and the IDE connects over a network port to two ICE boxes attached to the board. I never leave the IDE environment. I can simply place breakpoints , watchpoints, create a debugging setup store that as a template together with relevant sources. When a collegue updates one of the blocks he works on it is compiled into his build. So the code we work on does not interfere with others... once the block is approved it goes into the main project strain. Works flawless. A signed block is then automatically propagated into anyone who runs a build.Now, i don't know how pure software projects are built. So i can't comment on that. And don't take what i am saying here as the end-all gospel either.I can only speak as for how i develop embedded firmware . ( which is the driveware .. : the code in the harddisk that does all the drive operations.)I think it is needless to say that this kind of code is VERY tightly controlled... you don't want to have to recall a bunch of drives because of a firmware problem... not if you make over a million drives a day ... not if some of that code ends up in mask rom that cannot be altered ... not if millions of people trust their kids pictures to this. i don't want angry people showing up with a shotgun because they lost their grandkids pictures due to a gaffe in the driveware.....I want a full blown Integrated Design Environment. With all the graphical whizbang we can muster. Featuring code tracing , breakpoints , profiling, conditional builds , check-in/out system and all the other stuff built in .Can you image having to develop and debug this kind of code using printf statements and a serial port ? We'd still have three phase motor, belt driven, disks that could hold a whoppin 50 megabyte ...My IDE goes beyond this , it also talks to testequipment. If i place a marker at a line of code the ICE triggers my logic analyzer and scope. So i can see what the hardware does at the exact moment that portion if accessed. The cpu can be halted , singlestepped, live data can be inspected and changed on the fly and then the cpu continues its run. i can investigate how the hardware reacts.You simply cannot do this with a command line. you would need at least 5 or 6 command line windows open go from one to another, type commands to dump some data on a screen and type in commands to do all this stuff. why all this typing if you can do it with one mouseclick and the screen updates automatically at every step ..Give me that mouse so i can click where the breakpoint needs to go and hit F8 to step forward , Shift f8 to step over and double click on a watch point to change its contents. you can keep your archaic way of developing . I have deadlines to meet ...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 09:52:26 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 22, 2012, 08:57:57 pmPerhaps some people don'tlikethose ready made tools.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 10:07:53 pm
content: Quoteand prefer command line "tool" and "typing scripts"? ok savvy, scripts dont get counted in "code lines count".

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 10:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 22, 2012, 10:07:53 pmWhy, yes, many peopledoprefer to work from the command line. Please don't automatically assume a CLI is slow and clumsy. That's only the impression people get from DOS and having to actually learn things.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 11:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 22, 2012, 09:52:26 pmIt's free... it works .. wahat's there not to like.Look, i can understand not liking a program. Heck i wouldn't touch eagle as a pcb tool with a long stick ( i try it once in a while a new version comes out , just to see ) . But i would not switch to a command line driven pcb layout tool ... that would be fun... typing the coordinates for a piece of track by hand.. i want a friggin mouse and point n click interface !I just can't wrap my mind around having the choice betweena) a development environmnent , made by the processor maker , that supports a nice , cheap programming / debugging tool ( AVRisp Mk II and AVR Dragon ) and has all the tools on board you need. A Single click deploys it and you are up and running in minutes.b) a development environment where you need to write a bunch of scripts first to glue everything together , an inferior compiler ( not made or optimazed by cpu maker ) , that does not work properly with the official programmer but uses a kludged together homebrew half implementation that sometimes doesn't work. That doe snot allow breakpoints and watchpoints to be set from the sourcecode, or cource level debugging, requires installation of x different tools and trying to glue the stuff together. Depending on the daily flavor of os you are running distributions / build/ prerequisites may or may not be available and require you to attempt to compile the toolchain yourself first...There is no SANE person in the world that would go for B .... i just don't understand why you want to make your life so hard. If i need a screwdriver i get one. i'm not going to smelt my own iron , cast a bar , hammer it into a screwdriver, learn chemistry to make plastics from my own oilwell i drill in my backyard to make a handle and get the screw in. You are offered a free screwdriver to begin with. one would be crazy not to take it.Let's be serious , the TS is looking for a toolchain to run on his computer : one man project , so not group development thus all the 'superproject' comments in this thread are invalidated.I can understand you want to run this under linux / osx or whatever. But if there is no turnkey you either bitre the bullet and go the hard way or,you install wine or bootcamp , plunk avrstudio on it and run.At the end of the day the goal is to develop code for a hobby project with an AVR ... no point in making it hard.The only thing i have not seen in this whole thread is a turnkey solution ( which s what the Ts is looking for ... read his request.) being offered for linux or osx ... its ended up in the traditional os-bashing vi vs emacs kde vs gnome , i don't like your colorsceme , you wear suspenders, you are a vegetarian flamewar... Operating systems may and ide's commandlines might as well have been friggin religions.The answer is : there is none. People run AVRstudio under wine.here you go : step by step guide :http://www.avrfreaks.net/modules/FreaksArticles/files/601/AVR_Studio_on_Linux.pdfnow go write code and solder a board dammit !

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 12:10:21 am
content: Quote from: Gall on June 22, 2012, 07:00:42 pmI was responding to someone post about the editor not mattering at all.Not all linux text editors are awesome and have those features.You need something with proper features, not a basic editor with no color and no search. All those editors you quoted have those things, although i'm not sure if they can show inline debugging?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 12:27:08 am
content: make me thinking that what i've done in my cave for this long is perharps... "not programming" (writing scripts in command line is) then i dont know what its called. maybe "spanking dick" with C++ (by K&R) and M$ Visual Studio. and maybe debugging and setting breakpoints are not parts of the "dick spanking" workflow

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 02:35:28 am
content: Quote from: TerminalJack505 on June 22, 2012, 06:51:50 pmSo you are saying that ppl that build multi million lines of code don't use ide???

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 02:51:31 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on June 23, 2012, 02:35:28 amSo you are saying that ppl that build multi million lines of code don't use ide???They can, but often don't. After a certain point,the IDE no longer offers anything useful, so a programmer may as well use the best program editor instead. IDE's usually do not contain the best program editors.

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 03:33:30 am
content: So most ppl building large code use vim/emacs?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 03:49:15 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on June 23, 2012, 03:33:30 amDifferent programmers like different editors. Some get really good at the weird key combinations and love something like vim. Some love the macro power of an emacs or textmate. Basically, if you are going to be typing code all day, you are going to want the editor that suits you the best. Some programmers like an extremely fast editor that starts immediately.The trouble with IDE's is that they tend to use the easiest editors. Most people can use an IDE editor without looking at the help file once. The best editors for an expert programmer are usually not the easiest editors.Also in a large project, you will be using a version control package, and it will not be the one that came with the IDE. Some editors integrate with git, subversion etc better then others.

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 03:54:48 am
content: ummdoes vim integrates well with git?or u have to do use git separately?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 04:07:09 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on June 23, 2012, 03:54:48 amThere are plugins like git-branch-info.vim or git.vim that integrate git into vim.Also there is fugitive.vim which is a git wrapper for vim 7.2.

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 04:18:56 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on June 23, 2012, 02:35:28 amLike Amspire said, it depends on the developer. Some people like to use a particular code editor rather than the IDE's editor. That's one of the advantages of having makefiles. You don't even have to fire-up the IDE to edit or build a project.The majority of the developers I've worked with would just use the IDE for editing source code. They would also use it to build a project for in-house use (unit testing, for example.) QA and release builds arealwayscreated from the makefiles, though, so it's a good habit for a developer to usethemrather than the IDE for their in-house builds as well.These are things you may or may not ever need to worry about. If you're going to be a professional developer than you will. A hobbyist obviously wouldn't need to.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 04:47:36 am
content: Quote from: TerminalJack505 on June 23, 2012, 04:18:56 amand how a chunk of code got into QA? or release build?

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 05:20:27 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 23, 2012, 04:47:36 amThe code that QA builds are created from come from the version control software. When a developer makes a change to a project they check-out the necessary source file(s), make the changes, build locally, unit test and if unit testing passes they then check-in their changes.Release builds are builds that make it through QA, basically.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 05:25:53 am
content: Quotei never worked with version control even though i can have that installed (so i never care) but... do you people use command line or makefile batch for it? sounds like a dumb question isnt it? of course version control is offtopic when you want to define it as separated than "IDE".Quotehow do they make changes, build and test?

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:05:12 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 23, 2012, 05:25:53 amThe version control software may be integrated with the IDE or it may be separate. I've used both. Ideally, it should be capable of working outside of the IDE as well as with it. The reason is really quite simple. A developer will find it most convenient to have version control integrated into the IDE. A non-developer (QA tester, for example) will absolutelynotwant to have to deal with an IDE just to get code. Management also doesn't want to have to install/pay for development environments for the QA team just so they can get code out of version control.When a developer makes a change they will likely just edit the appropriate file(s). It depends what's being changed, obviously. They might need to edit source code or they might need to edit a resource (graphics, for example.) Once they've made the change they will just go to the command line for the project and type something like the following:Code:makeWhich will just build the changed file(s).orCode:make clean clobber allWhich forces a complete rebuild of the project by deleting all of the intermediate files.The target names ('clean', 'clobber' and 'all') are user-defined so other people may use different target names."Unit testing" is the term used for testing that the developer is expected to do for any changes that he/she makes. How this is done depends on what was changed. A one-line change that takes just a minute to make may require several days of unit testing. Believe it or not, some changes can't be tested! You can only statistically 'prove' them. (Long story...)The IDE comes into play during the unit testing stage only if the developer happens to need the profiler or debugger. This is usuallynotthe case for application software.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:12:48 am
content: IMHO:a bad IDE < no IDE < a good IDEAt the end of the day, it's a tool like any other. You either have the right tool for the job and know how to use it, or it'll likely just get in the way.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:25:37 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 23, 2012, 05:25:53 amVersion control is often much easier to use then you would expect.If you are using the version tools that integrate into the operating system (like tortoiseSVN), committing all your current work is often as simple as right clicking on a parent folder, selecting "commit" and adding a note describing the recent changes you have just made.The building and testing is easy as the files in your single working folder are always the latest files. The batch file to build doesn't even have to know the version control system exists. Batch/make files can be written to be able to extract and build a previous version, but this is not essential.The really huge benefit you get from a version control is one working folder - you do not have the project backup folder containing over 100 zip archive files containing previous stages of the project. You never need them, as you can checkout the project in any earlier stage into a new folder any time you want. Unlike files on a disk drive, a file delete in a version control usually never deletes the file - it removes it from the current build, but the file is still there in all previous builds. You can get any file from any build very easily. Make a big mistake, just revert back again. Make a big mistake without version control, and you often find yourself going back to that last version you zipped up a week ago.The store containing all the commits is surprisingly compact as only the differences are stored. The size of this data is way, way smaller then your folder of zip files.At any time, you can immediately compare a current file to any previous version of the file, and the diff program highlights all the differences.If two or more people are working on the same project, then version control systems are just magical. I remember working on a project with about 20,000 files totalling about 1GBye spread across perhaps 200 folders. Someone would ring me at home with a problem. I would update my project parent folder over the internet. In less then a minute, I am looking at an exactly identical working folders to the other programmer. If I make corrections and commit it, the other programmer has my corrections in less then a minute. Neither of us have to even remember which files we changed. In the particular case with the 20,000 files, most of those were automatically changed by a piece of software so we actually had no idea which files were changed/created/deleted in which folders, but the version control software sorted all that out flawlessly.You just cannot do this without version control.Richard.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:28:13 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 23, 2012, 03:49:15 amGood lord man! How many times an hour do you need to open and close the editor?!

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:35:15 am
content: Quote from: PeteInTexas on June 23, 2012, 06:28:13 amThere speaks a man used to an IDE that has to stay running all day.If an editor starts in half a second, you can open an instance to edit a file and close it when you finish editing the file.If you are working on a Linux system, you are regularly finding files you need to open, edit and close. You usually do not want to bring these into an IDE as they are not part of any project.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:43:54 am
content: Quote from: amspire on June 23, 2012, 06:35:15 amMy ide running on linux (or windows or mac) can open and close multiple files in the project or not.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:58:00 am
content: Not that I'm entirely sure why we're arguing about IDEs when talking about editing non-project related text files, but my IDE starts in under a second anyway, and this is on my least powerful machine.Normally I'd just use whatever editor I already have open, or if I don't have one open, whatever editor is easiest to launch from wherever I am at the time, but if I had some crazy desire to use a sledge-hammer to crack a nut, launching the IDE is not really a problem.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 07:23:00 am
content: Quotegdb is fine. It runs within EMACS rather nicely, you know. Or at least it would if you could get at the debug interface of AVRs (there is avraice which will talk to an AVR JTAG ICE, but it would be nicer to talk to the chip directly, and/or with cheaper tools. Sigh.) There are other gnu debuggers (that use the gdb target protocol) as well.People have certainly programed AVRs on Macs using both Eclipse and XCode. Arduinos, even, which is harder. I would assume you could also use Netbeans.I would assume that the newest AVR Studio has too much DLL crap to work under wine; my experience with things that have "licensing" of any kind (other IDEs) has been pretty grim. And keeping up with churn in Windows itself is tough. I'd love to hear otherwise. "Bootcamp" is not really a Mac solution."avra" and "tavrasm" are Atmel-compatible assemblers that will run on Mac.The thing I dislike about IDEs is that you get a different one from each vendor. Each occupying too much space, and being slightly different form all the others.And as archaic as they might seem, "old" editors like EMACS are more than just editors. You can "Integrate" your own set of tools to add all sorts of the same features that an IDE gives you, except that you can pick and choose exactly which tools you add and how they work. EMACS + mkid + etags + gdb + make + macros for RCS/CVS/Clearcase/git/mercurial/svn ...(Alas, "make" sucks, IMO. Makefiles always grow in complexity until they're incomprehensible.)(and project size... A typical IDE's cross-file databases and whatnot are nice, until they start to get so large that performance becomes unacceptable. Which is not that large (though perhaps an AVR project never gets that large.) An environment that you can easily customize lets you more easily handle subsets...)Having a powerful environment is a good thing. I don't think that requires that it be "integrated", and certainly not integrated by someone else who made important decisions in ways that go against you wishes.

author: paf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 08:29:39 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 22, 2012, 06:38:44 pm"Yes, graphical IDEs can be comfy. They look very nice and are very useful for debugging. ".Yes?Is this phrase hoopla?My best regards.paf

author: paf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 08:48:20 am
content: I will talk about OSX ( but Linux almost is the same thing).On OSX install the developer tools first and then Mac portshttp://www.macports.org/It is a command line software package system and you can get "unix like software" like on Linux.Doing "port search avr" on the command line gives:==========================avarice @2.11 (cross)AVR JTAG-ICE control softwareavr-binutils @2.22 (cross, devel)FSF Binutils for avr cross developmentavr-gcc @4.7.0 (cross, devel)The GNU compiler collection for avravr-gdb @6.8 (cross)GDB for the AVR processorsavr-libc @1.8.0 (cross)C library for the AVR microcontroller.avrdude @5.11.1 (cross, devel)an Atmel AVR MCU programmeruisp @20050207 (devel)AVR In-System Programmer=================After that, "sudo port install package" will install the desired package.If you want an IDE you can use Eclipse ( on OSX and Linux and Windows ) with:http://avr-eclipse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/The_AVR_Eclipse_PluginAnother variant ( Crossdev tools + Xcode on OSX ):http://www.quietless.com/kitchen/setting-up-xcode-to-compile-upload-to-an-arduino-atmega328-duemilanove/My best regardspaf

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 02:31:00 pm
content: Quoteis that explained why some bugs are unable to be fixed? or at least needs several iteration of "build" to make it fixed?Quoteso they need an IDE?Quotewhat the application developers actually do? dont they code and/or type something? or do they just collect chunks of codes and combine them together where appropriate?and if someone, who start typing a code/program from scratch (zero), what are they called? not a programmer? and what tool do they use? to test something that has never been tested before? probably ranging from 10s to 1000s line of code, untested or run tested and produced very very peculiar unpredictable output?do people who collect chunks of codes and combine them together with some simple few lines of scripts/codes be called the "real programmer" or "developer"? sorry too many questions, but i'm having a very serious semantics ambiguity/confusion about this right now. i know this is off topic as the OP only ask for simple IDE for AVR programming, not version control and not bunch of developers working together in distances.and anything that can integrate a compiler a debugger etc, ie more than just an editor, is to my definition, is an IDEif those gdb or emacs (never saw those) can do those integration, aren't they also IDE? no?ps: i'm a window monkey i never go outside that window jungle

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:56:04 pm
content: QuoteYes, exactly. One particular example of this type of problem is when the bug is in a 3rd party library. The bug might occur only rarely--say once per 10,000 invocations. Sometimes all a developer can do in this case is upgrade the library andtryto reproduce the conditions that cause the bug. If the bug doesn't occur during testing then the developer can only say that it isstatisticallyless likely to occur with the new library but he/she will really never know if the bug has been truly fixed.QuoteYes, they'll need an IDE when profiling and debugging. They'll also need it when their development tool is component based (aka forms based) and they need to change something on a form.QuoteSure, developers write code. Lots of it. They don't need an IDE for this. They can take it or leave it. Source code is just text files so any text editor is up to the task.QuoteWhat that person is called really depends on what their employer wish to call them. There are a ton of different terms used in the industry. Here are some of the common terms: programmer/analyst, software developer, software engineer.The tool(s) they use are going to vary. They'll obviously use whatever they are provided with by their employer. The more seasoned developers will also use tools they've found useful in the past. For example, I like to use Perl for in-house development testing since you can quickly synthesize and/or analyze data with it.QuoteTechnically speaking, probably so.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 08:34:19 pm
content: thanks for the detail and patient explanation jack. you relieved me from some "burden"so "technically" speaking... some people will and do believe IDEs do "accelerate" their development (esp events driven forms multitasking based applications) and still be called a developer or programmer, not "something else". but also i do believe some people dont need IDE, because their workflow not necesitate it, or can be done without it. and perharps there still out there people typing in raw hex opcode and upload direct to the target machine (mcu) and be done!now i totally agree with you, as i typing right now, i'm in the process of developing something using 2 IDEs for the same chunk of code targetted at 2 different machines and bunches of notepads to get it done. we use whats best for us to get it done quickly, not that we have and must to use this and that what other people think its most suitable for them that also "must be" suitable for us. also this quote...Quoteeven though its not my profession but somehow as a "user", i know exactly what this means. and as someone who know something about coding, i wouldnt complaint much (not like the clueless users), i prefer to diy my own code where i can. but when things get complicated, we wouldnt have much choice isnt it? relying on other people mistake and hoping them to provide the support and correction.