Running Windows 7 and considering a hardware upgrade? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 04:30:42 pm
content: In case you weren't aware and didn't see the news (I managed to miss it) and upgrade to any of these technologies or newer - Intel seventh (7th)-generation processors, AMD “Bristol Ridge”, Qualcomm “8996". Microsoft added crippleware in several updates this year to block Windows 7 update from running."The processor is not supported together with the Windows version that you are currently using" error when you scan or download Windows updates.https://support.microsoft.com/help/4012982/In other words updates would run on those processors but Microsoft wants to sell more peoples souls when they use Windows 10, so no Windows update for you! This is on top of the telemetry bullshit, upgrade you to Windows 10 trickery, and whatever other vulnerabilities were coded in. I guess "supported till 2020" doesn't mean jack anymore.There is a way around it, you still need to keep you PC up to date but just stay away from cumulative updates and install all updates manually confirming what each one exactly does in the MS KB article as well as checking it's not in a blacklist.I know it's been like this a few years now, but Microsoft wtf?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 05:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on November 04, 2017, 04:30:42 pmBlame the people who force you to use windows.If nobody forces you to use it, then what's the problem?If you believe windows is better than the alternatives, be happy and stick with it.As long as people continue to use it, nothing is going to change.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 05:13:16 pm
content: Microsoft can go jump in a trash compactor.Anyhow, there are tools to un-block Windows Update on the affected systems. AMD seems to be more supportive of Win7 than Intel, which doesn't come as a massive surprise.I'm not moving to Win10 as my primary OS. Period. And that applies after the support cut-off too.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 05:53:02 pm
content: It gets worse on servers. On Server 2016 you have to accept that the server will update itself and may restart itself in the process. You can set times when this is not allowed to happen, but basically if you have any setup where something could be broken by an unscheduled restart, for example one where virtual machines or databases were not shut down first, then you have a problem.This seems to be in the interests of security, but then what point is there in securing something which got broken in the process of securing it?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 06:32:15 pm
content: The average person could easily just use Linux, but the average person apparently loves advertising and doesn't mind giving Microsoft control of their computer and letting Microsoft sniff through their data. I don't get it, really.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 01:42:20 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 04, 2017, 05:05:44 pmThere often is no alternative. Some software critical to a job just isn't available on other platforms.

author: expinkolator
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 02:31:11 am
content: It wouldn't be so much of a problem if Microsoft hadn't decided to make Win 10 suck so bad they couldn't even give it away.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 02:57:25 am
content: Quote from: rdl on November 04, 2017, 06:32:15 pmArrogant twaddle.I have a regular task that uses hardware with manufacturer supplied software. The hardware does everything I need. The software does everything I need. The workflow has been well established. If the hardware fails, there is a second hand market that can replace it.The software only runs on XP. When I upgraded to Win7, this software was a key consideration in the decision - and the move to Win7 only happened because the software was able to run on the XP virtual machine.Have I looked at alternative solutions that could run on a more modern OS?Yes.What did I find?That I would have to:- invest a four figure sum into the acquisition of the new hardware and software- redefine, test and implement a new workflow- put my number 2 income stream on hold during the implementation phase and explain why things were (as they inevitably would be) a bit slow coming through during the settling in period.QuoteGet down from your ivory tower.I've been in software development for a number of decades - and that attitude is one I abhor.Still, I suppose I can't complain too much... between people like that and the ones that bash monkey code together, it makes me look like a freakin' genius.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 03:53:46 am
content: Apparently "average person" has very different meanings from one person to another. To me, it's someone who basically uses a computer for little more than internet, email, and playing music and movies. Which means much of what they do is done through a web browser. A browser is a browser and there is little difference in how they work between different operating systems. Media players, e-mail, word processing etc. have not been difficult for a long time. Until two years ago I had never really bothered with Linux, today it's on most of the computers I have control over. It has not been that hard.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 03:58:56 am
content: Seems your definition of "average person" is somewhat offset from the membership here.Makes relevance a bit fuzzier.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 04:17:45 am
content: Windows update? More like Windows downgrade. It won't be missed anyway.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 05:58:23 am
content: Three years ago I installed Linux Mint on a friend's first computer. He is 80 and his missus who is constantly using it is maybe 75. Once they got a handle on the basics of GUIs there was no stopping. They don't compile compile kernels or do administrative tasks and neither do they need to. It just works.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 06:44:54 am
content: Y^es, for 99% of users a browser will do every single thing. just install anything with a browser, an automatic update set up and an adblocker and they will be happy. Set them up as a regular user with no admin password and they will be fine for 5 years. Linux use something with long term support and you will be fine. for word processing use Libreoffice, and for a media player VLC, both free and very capable for almost all common uses.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:28:54 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 01:42:20 amLike I wrote before, blame the people (the critical software writers or their boss or the person that selected that critical software) who force you to use windows.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:35:00 am
content: Quote from: expinkolator on November 05, 2017, 02:31:11 amIt wouldn't be so much of a problem if microsoft shouldn't have a dominant position on the desktop.As long as most people continue to use it, nothing is going to change. Don't blame microsoft for doingwhat's best for their interest.When microsoft was convicted for abusing their monopoly, the judge should have ordered to split microsoft in twobranches. One for the os and one for applications.All together, we let microsoft go away with it.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:42:08 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 05, 2017, 02:57:25 amNice example of vendor-lockin.This explains why you should never run a business that depends on a monopolist who can do whatever he wants.Or at least put it on the list of (calculated) risks in your business plan and don't whine about it when it bites you in the ass.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:42:50 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 08:35:00 amDon't blame people for doing what's in their best interest either. They're not going to relearn software or even re-jig the company infrastructure. Unless they have very compelling reasons, they'll keep doing what they did and that's not really unfair.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:44:33 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 08:42:08 amWhat exactly is the alternative? You'll have to depend on someone, like it or not.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:55:15 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 08:42:50 amThen, what's the problem? Why all the whining about microsoft?Be happy that for many years you could postpone the re-learning of the software and/or to re-jig the company infrastructure.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:58:42 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 08:44:33 amUse products that doesn't create vendor-lockin e.g. use open standards as much as possible.If not, be prepared that one day it can disrupt your business.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:59:45 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 08:55:15 amAre there only two options? Not having any problems at all and starting all over? That doesn't seem quite right.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:05:24 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 08:59:45 amI see... you (and maybe some other people here as well) just want to complain about microsoft.At the same time you know that your business can not survive without them.I get it...

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:05:35 am
content: QuoteI am deeply suspicious that this is bullshit. I can't offhand think of any Intel CPU that hasn't successfully run code written for a previous version. I can't offhand recall any Microsoft OS needing to be updated for a new Intel CPU to run it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:09:30 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 08:58:42 amThat sounds great, but doesn't exist. Unless you want to use some unknown product that no people are trained form, likely doesn't work as well and isn't compatible with the equipment at the companies you deal with, you're shit out of luck.I mean, we can't really pretend Ubuntu and FreeCAD are going to measure up to a Windows domain with Solidworks and parts library.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:10:24 am
content: QuoteIt's not vendor lock-in. It's OS lock-in.Many of us have thousands of <monetary unit> invested in software over the years. There may not be Linux versions of some, and you're asking us to throw all that away (or even re-invest thousands in acquiring versions for a different OS). For why? Because Microsoft are being sadistic bellends. And, of course, that never happens in the Linux world (remind me, how friendly and amenable to discussion is the systemd dictator?).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:11:00 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 09:05:24 amSo that's affirmative? According to you the world is black and white? Die or be in heaven? Work with perfect employees and companies, or cast them from your world forever? If you use something, you suddenly agree with everything that's attached to it?And again, there is no option where you're not depending on some party who won't notice it if you're gone. It doesn't exist.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:12:32 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 05, 2017, 09:10:24 amApparently Karel changes his entire workflow multiple times each year, and doesn't have a problem investing thousands of monetary units in licenses and training, projects that need to be postponed and compatibility problems clients might experience.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:33:38 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 09:12:32 amOn the contrary. We do electronics design and embedded software. We are using Linux as our main os since the beginning.So far, we always found good (or at least reasonable) alternatives for windows applications.Occasionally we use windows 7 in virtualbox but nothing that can disrupt our business.Cadence, Zuken, (hell, even Eagle!), Xilinx, Altera, Microchip, all support Linux.It's just Altium Designer that can't support Linux because they use ritarded tools to write their software.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:38:23 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 09:33:38 amIt's great you found a niche where you can do this, but as soon as any sort of serious engineering outfit tries to use, say, Solidworks, there's not really an alternative. There are plenty of industry standard applications that just won't run on Linux.Trust me, I've tried many times. We've had this discussion on the forums before, and came to the same conclusion.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:45:47 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 09:38:23 amYou consider electronics & embedded software development a niche?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:50:16 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 09:45:47 amIf you do just that, yes. You can't really do any full product development without some sort of CAD solution. That means that others apparently provide what you need to survive.Besides, your problem was with us complaining, right? That means that the solution should fit our situation, not yours.nichea habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or speciesd :a specialized market

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 09:52:52 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 09:33:38 amAs a side note, why doesn't it surprise me that the previous posts led up to the reveal that you're a Linux boyOh, and just to be clear, I love the Linux thought and regularly tinker with it for personal purposes. I really wish it would be the answer to everything, but it just isn't.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 11:07:27 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 09:52:52 amMicrosoft is the answer to everything? Then again, why all the whining? Getting confused now...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 11:40:24 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 11:07:27 amI was being generous, but since you insist: it's time we admit that Linux on the desktop often isn't going to cut the mustard. It's great if you want to do basic things, a few specific things, or apparently do what you do. In a lot of cases, industry standard software isn't available and it isn't really conveniently substituted. Sure you can swap out Photoshop with GIMP, but what about the rest of the Adobe suite? What about generating a CAD model in an industry standard format? Even if it is possible, it takes time and effort to work around the non-availability of programs and less optimal compatibility. In a lot of cases it's simply not going to happen. You'll also have to worry about hiring staff that's capable of working with lesser known programs. Other companies simply don't have the patience for dealing with people who can't supply what's normally supplied and if they do, they'll charge you for it. It all adds up to overhead that eats into your profit margin, which is exactly the opposite of what you need as a business.Why complain? Because it works! Microsoft has backtracked on a number of things after listening to feedback from customers. The fact that companies haven't migrated in droves should tell you something about how good of an alternative they consider Linux. If it were to pay, they would do it, but they don't.Again, I wish I could find a great CAD program that runs on Linux, or a proper alternative to Adobe CC. Instead, I had to tinker with TeamViewer for hours before I got it sorta kinda working on one of the larger Linux distros. That's fine if you're a tinkerer and having some fun, but not acceptable if you're running a business. If the day ever comes that switching actually is viable, I'll be ready. I'd love it.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 02:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 11:40:24 am

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 02:14:11 pm
content: Hmm what's wrong with having 2 PC's in your office, and run the windows software on the windows machine and the linux software on the linux machine ?. That way you get the best of both worlds.I agree windows update is a bit cumbersome, one PC hadn't been on for a while and windows update didn't work, so I had to re-name the update folder and all all the updates to download and install. It took over 5 hrs and 2 days still finding things to update, whereas to load a similar PC with Linux Mint took all of 10 mins.Ken

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 03:04:49 pm
content: There is various ways of running Windows/Linux Linux/Windows now so you don't need to run a dedicated box. As for the Linux vs Windows debate it was exactly the same as 20 years ago, reasons for and against.I think one of the key factors to swing changes could be a fully open source Linux distro for mobiles. It's less of a transition to go from mobile to "mobile like desktop", throw in optional control over the OS, preventing abandonware, slowing down hardware obsolescence from vendors and the other problems that exist with Android and it could work out quite well.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 03:43:36 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on November 04, 2017, 05:53:02 pmThis is not entirely accurate.I run Server 2016 as a desktop operating system, as it's less bloated and broken than Windows 10, and it only forces a restart once you manually initiate an update, so you can just not do the update until a time when it's cool for you to restart. The updates aren't really forced in that way.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 09:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 05, 2017, 09:05:35 amAgreed. I believe it's more a case of MS and Intel taking deliberate steps tosabotageretire old OSs, because they don't support the spyware, backdoors and payware enforcements being built into present and future architectures. This for example:https://www.networkworld.com/article/3236064/servers/minix-the-most-popular-os-in-the-world-thanks-to-intel.htmlQuote

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 10:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 05, 2017, 09:05:35 amHere’s an example.https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/help/312108/windows-protection-error-in-ndis-with-a-cpu-that-is-faster-than-2-1-gh

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 01:07:52 am
content: QuoteGood call.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 10:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 11:40:24 amThis. The applications in the OSS world simply aren't up to snuff in most cases.I actually am quite tired of hearing the OSS fans trot out GIMP as a Photoshop replacement (it's not; it doesn't come distantly close to what today's Photoshop does), LibreOffice for MS Office (again, not even distantly subsitutable, LO is just missing too many advanced features), etc.I haven't really used either, but to use an example that might be closer to home here, I'm gonna guess that KiCad doesn't come close to Altium's feature set, either. It might be fine for hobbyists and more basic professional use, but really big commercial projects need something beefier.So the OSS stuff is often adequate for the casual user, but simply falls short for the professional.Also, professionals need support, so that if something goes wrong, it can get fixed. OSS can't really provide that.The other aspect of OSS applications that is a real issue for average-joe users is usability. Here, OSS software tends to be far, far inferior, since it generally follows one of two patterns: being a crappy copy of a commercial product's interface (usually on Windows, but occasionally Mac); or following no convention whatsoever, having been designed at the developer's whim. The result of all this is a near-total lack of UI consistency, which really makes things harder for most users. (This is an engineering forum; we are, by definition, not average users.)(Indeed, the Mac platform's biggest advantage for normal users is the high degree of UI consistency among applications by different developers, thanks to Apple's early and continued evangelism of adherence to the UI guidelines. Microsoft, despite having comparable UI guidelines, wasn't nearly as effective in convincing developers to adhere to them, so consistency isn't as high.)

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:33:00 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 09, 2017, 10:47:01 pmWho said that everything needs to be OSS? Sometimes OSS is better, sometimes closed-source, it depends.In the case of operating systems, Linux is clearly king, given that your applications are available on that platform.Fortunately, for most electronic engineers, this is the case. For example, Cadence, Zuken, Eagle, Xilinx, Altera, Microchip,all support Linux. It's just Altium Designer that can't support Linux because they use ritarded tools to write their software.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:28:40 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 10, 2017, 07:33:00 amLet's be clear here: you think Linux is clearly king. There's no universal truth there.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:47:30 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 10, 2017, 07:33:00 amNo it is not. I can probably list a dozen application that I'm using on a daily-weekly basis, which don't support linux:Tina-TISaturn PCB toolkitAutodesk Design ReviewWindows PowershellMicrosoft OfficeNotepad++Autohotkeypaint.netTDK SEATKvaser's CanKingTest-OK testtrackMicrosoft SolitareIf you found a way to not use Linux: Good for you. Nobody cares about it. No I'm not going to look for a software which kinda-sorta works the same way on linux, because I dont care. I've got shit to do, not fiddle with software and to figure out how it works, and spend half my life googling error messages, the other half in the terminal.And no, Linux is clearly not the king. It is barely usable as it is.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:50:42 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 09, 2017, 11:18:08 pmIt's a double edged sword. It has made it what it is today and what made it succesful, but also why it probably won't achieve widespread adoption. It's all too fragmented and as soon as someone doesn't agree with the direction something is taken, yet another fork arises. Rather than focussing the available developing power, it's spread thin across the range. Worse still, many of these islands have significant weaknesses, because you can't be master of everything. You can be a coding wizard, but deliver a horrible UI.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 11:05:34 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 09, 2017, 11:18:08 pmOh, that's certainly true. Don't get me wrong, I think OSS as such is a great thing. It's just bad at producing user interface consistency, which is why I don't think a fully OSS OS will ever take over the desktop (or phone/tablet). But its success in the server room is well deserved, and OSS has been great at providing the software cores that others use to make great GUI apps.One of the things I love about the Mac today is how, thanks to being UNIX under the hood, we now have both a full complement of commercial software AND a full complement of OSS software, really giving us the best of both worlds.Quote from: Karel on November 10, 2017, 07:33:00 amWell, Linux is king in the server room only. Everywhere else, it's Windows and to a smaller extent Mac. Despite almost 2 decades of "YYYY is the year of the Linux desktop" announcements, Linux remains a niche player on the desktop. It's too fragmented, and too finicky, for the average user to bother with, especially given that for an average user, switching has no advantages, but many disadvantages.If anything is gonna dethrone Win and Mac for the average joe, it's gonna be Chrome OS or something like it (that hasn't been invented yet). Lots of people these days can do 100% of what they need in a browser, and a Chromebook is an easy and secure way to do that. (I don't agree with the people who say that even pros will eventually give up Win/Mac/Linux for a lightweight OS like iOS, Android, or Chrome OS. That's nonsense, there's still an obvious place for full-size desktop OSes.)As for commercial apps on Linux: That's a very good point. And no doubt, Linux makes a good platform for running commercial apps, at least in the jobs where you spend 99% of your time within one or two apps. It's interesting how commercial app developers some fields (like engineering and video) have embraced Linux on the desktop, while others (like graphic design/DTP) have totally ignored it.As forwhyAltium (and others) isn't available: it's not just development tools, dude. Cross-platform development is hard, and that's even if you're willing to tolerate a user interface that's identical across platforms (meaning that it's not consistent with platform usability guidelines on at least all but one, but often on all). If you want an app to be a truly fully native citizen of its platform, you cannot use cross-platform development tools. Microsoft, for example, spends a fortune on Office to make it look and feel like a proper Mac application on the Mac. It shares a code base with Office for Windows, but they re-do a lot to make sure it works properly as a Mac application. Apps written in cross-platform development tools are often really wonky.Quote from: NANDBlog on November 10, 2017, 10:47:30 amYep, it works for some people, no question. But it certainly does not, and cannot, work for everyone.I'm like you, I don't like dicking around making my computer work, I just want it to work. That's why I like the Mac. Not perfect, but the least-intrusive of any desktop OS.Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 10, 2017, 10:50:42 amIt's spectacularly rare for a programmer to be a good UI designer. (Not unheard of, but rare as can be.)Indeed, usability requires consistency, and consistency requires developers to agree upon and adhere to user interface conventions. That goes against the entire ethos of OSS. Not saying that OSS is bad, it's just never gonna produce quality user interfacestaken as a platform as a whole. And yes, you're absolutely right about the spreading out of work. That said, it being open source, at least developers can then just copy the other person's code for something else if they want.Can you tell I come from a professional usability background?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 11:29:11 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 10, 2017, 11:05:34 amPeople can take other's work if they want, but often don't. Pride is a huge "issue" in the OSS world, in the sense that many people have pet projects and want it to be their code, their idea and their baby. That's fair game, but also tends to lead to a lot of reinventing of the wheel, forking and concurrent development of the exact same thing minus one detail. People not accepting reasonable commits from others is a known issue too.In regards to programmers and UI, I've worked with two guys on a project where both were perfectly competent programmers. One tended to come up with solutions that were technically sound, but exposed a lot of variables or were in other ways cumbersome to use. His colleague on the other hand, tended to come up with technically equally sound solutions, but with just the right variables exposed. Often you knew how to use the code or library without looking too much at the documentation. He really had a knack for coming up with solutions reduced to their bare essence, and increasing functionality, rather than impinging on it.That really drove the difference home for me. I don't think you could ever train the first guy to do what the second did.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 01:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 10, 2017, 11:05:34 amNope. Linux is king everywhere except for the desktop. I agree that that isn't going to change soon (if ever).The reason is, Linux is designed by engineers, for engineers.Windows on the other hand, is designed for the masses with completely different goals in mind.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:11:21 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 10, 2017, 01:23:42 pmLOL you're funny. So other than the desktop and the server, where exactly do you think Linux is king? I mean, it doesn't leave a whole lot!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 10, 2017, 07:11:21 pmEmbedded. The sort of stuff that often gets taken for granted. By that measure, a large percentage of households have more Linux computers (smartphones, tablets, and networked appliances like routers) than Windows computers, without the users realizing it.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:34:39 pm
content: Just adding my 2c...I was running windows 7 until a few weeks ago when I decided to move windows into a VM (KVM) and run it as a guest on the system. I passed my video card into the VM and installed a secondary card for Linux allowing me to have high performance under both operating systems. And before you say... performance will be bad, etc... hehI can run all AAA games on my AMD platform in my VM at near bare metal performance... in fact in some instances the performance is higher than bare metal due to my ZFS accelerating disk access for the VM. There was a problem initially, but because of the open source nature of Linux I was able to track down and fix a 10 year old bug with the kernel allowing everyone else to do this too.So I now have my PC nervana setup... quad head Linux, with a little client I wrote (and will be releasing GPLv2 soon) that allows me to use the virtual machine in a window, even though it's a passed through video card.Why do I say all this?... Because most people in the tech industry are forced to run windows for 1 or 2 bits of legacy software, or they want to play games. Dual boot is a work around, and it's a PITA to reboot just to do a quick thing or two and then be rebooting again to resume what you were doing. Once I released this fix to the public I was amazed at the public response, turns out a ton of people are now dropping dual boot on their workstations in favor of a VM running Windows.https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-NPT-GPU-Pass-Throughhttps://level1techs.com/article/patch-npt-ryzen-better-performancehttps://hackaday.com/2017/10/31/10-year-old-bug-crushed-by-hacker-on-a-mission/https://redd.it/78i3jx

author: chriswebb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:45:11 pm
content: Looks like some of you microsoft office people haven't run into the infamous CSV problem of Excel:https://superuser.com/questions/130592/how-do-you-force-excel-to-quote-all-columns-of-a-csv-filehttps://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/291296/procedure-to-export-a-text-file-with-both-comma-and-quote-delimiters-iThey suggest a macro.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 08:08:44 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on November 10, 2017, 07:34:39 pmMost people don't know a VM with proper passthrough will be near native performing. The passthrough is the secret sauce which people tend to forget.Obviously, installing the proper drivers makes a world of difference too.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 09:01:36 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 10, 2017, 08:08:44 pmWell, to be fair, we must also remind ourself that VM passthrough is a fairly new feature and it is only recently this feature started working nicely in the various VM offerings. Even though I haven't used Windows for many years, if I was forced to, I would definitely go for Windows in a VM and with passthrough if I needed the GPU performance, as suggested.It's funny reading this thread to see how MS prevents users from installing Windows on older CPUs. It's such a nasty move. I would recommend anyone trapped in this situation to make the jump and try out one of the user friendly Linux distributions such as Ubuntu. For the average users that depend on a good browser and a good word processor etc. for their daily tasks, Ubuntu is more than sufficient. For advanced Windows users it is more difficult to stray away from their habits and favorite programs. For power users Linux is really the best choice.Btw. @gnif, good job hunting down that passthrough GPU bug!

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:45:42 pm
content: IMHO Ubuntu is the worst example of Linux there is, it is bloated, they force a UI onto the user (remember how gnome2 just worked and behaved in a manner that everyone liked, then Ubuntu invented "Unity", what a joke), they don't assist the roots they came from (Debian) and still today so happily take from. They have been caught out adding things totrack users on Amazon's behalf(and don't say "oh, but they fixed it"... It should NEVER have occurred in the first place). I could go on and on and on...Debian is just as easy to install and it's defaults give you a fully functional gnome 3 desktop environment, or you can opt for one of the alts like Cinnamon or xfce. They do not swap out things just because of "Progress", favoring stability and security over bells and whistles. My wife who is a basic computer user and has trouble with attaching a file to an email, has been using Debian at home for 10 years now and loves it.RedHat/CentOS has had it's day, there are better options available now, and while I do believe they are well supported operating systems with good enterprise roots, the RPM system + yum, etc... are laughable compared with modern package managers.In the past I would have agreed that Debian could be a nightmare to get a UI up and running, but these days it just works. Even the binary drivers such as nvidia are a breeze to install these days.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:57:25 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 10, 2017, 07:19:40 pmI thought this discussion was about computers, not phones and appliances. I am well aware and fully accept that Linux is very widespread there, I just think that’s outside the scope of what we were talking about.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 11:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 10, 2017, 10:57:25 pmYou're most correct, I should know better then to derail a thread. Back to the topic on hand

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 11:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on November 10, 2017, 10:45:42 pmLol gnif, take it easy before you blow your fuseObviously you had something to vent there and thats fine. I simply used Ubuntu as an example but for good reasons. After all, Ubuntu is still the most popular GNU/Linux distribution out there and they have a long history of focusing on end users, amateurs and professionals alike. Sure, other distributions are catching up now and provide a similar seamless experience. That being said, Ubuntu inherits the vast majority of software components from Debian so they are not that different except perhaps on the surface of things.I'm not going to engage in any discussions on which desktop environment is best because that is a very subjective thing and I've had way too many such discussions. But I will say that despite whatever Ubuntu has done over the years, even following their flawed Unity strategy, they have always left their users with a decent and simple desktop experience. Only Linux powers like you and me care about details like Gnome2/3 vs Unity, and now Gnome3/Ubuntu vs Gnome3 etc.. Well, to be honest, I don't even care about that anymore as long as I get a terminal where I can do most of my work.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 07:16:06 am
content: Perhaps one or more of you Linux gurus could suggest a decent backup system for someone used to the Windows way. Over there, I run off an image of my disk, a full every weekend and a diff every day. Takes 90 mins or so for a full, couple of minutes for a diff. Significantly, the diff relates to the full it is looking at, so I can shove in any old external drive with a full and get a proper diff. It is hard to overstate how useful this is for multi-destination backups (apart from external drivers, I also image to a NAS, each on their own schedule with the NAS rarely taking a full).OK, that's the background. So far as I could find out, the only similar took is Image for Linux. But unlike on Windows, on Linux you can't image a live system. Instead, you have to boot into the imager, run off the backup, the reboot for a useful login. Perfect example of how backups just won't get done.Any suggestions? Imaging per se isn't that important. What is important is that I can shove in a blank drive, boot off a USB stick or something, and an hour later I am back to exactly how I was before the original disk died. Having to install an OS (or, indeed, anything at all) before even looking for the backup media is not a goer.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 10:08:40 am
content: Re: backups: This depends on your filesystem.For ZFS, you can just take a snapshot and revert to that. No fuss at all - it's a single command to take it, it's pretty much instant, and rolling back is also a single command. The data still resides on the same disk, however, and due to the nature of the beast any deletions since the snapshot won't free up any space. Deleting a snapshot is also pretty painless. I haven't tried keeping more than one at a time, however.You can also easily copy a snapshot elsewhere, then back again, solving the issue of "whups, my HDD caught on fire".For everything else: I have no idea. The only things I run that aren't on ZFS already are small VMs that I just do VM snapshots of...

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 10:14:29 am
content: QuoteOnly, the Web.Ever tried setting up a website on IIS? Some perverse individuals will insist on doing it that way.Once case where the Linux route is not only the accepted standard but also vastly easier than the alternatives. Also, the sheer number of webservers makes this the single largest server OS deployment anywhere on the planet.QuoteUtter BS. The reverse is true. Imaging of Windows systems is the difficult one, needing special software. A running Linux system can be cloned with nothing more than cp or tar.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 10:18:32 am
content: QuoteThat ain't a backup, thenQuoteBut this might be. What do you actually copy?QuoteWhat do you need to do that to a blank disk to make it workable?Er... what do you do for backups?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 10:20:43 am
content: QuoteWouldn't dream of it. But I do run Apache on Windows successfully (and easily).

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 10:25:43 am
content: Linux is evolved a lot, it's really at windows 98 level, but will be hard to convince the fortune, 500 people, to leave windows, I was surprised buying at Costco and noted that they still use AS400, The fact is windows is easy to use, have billions of trained user ready to deploy. While on the other hands Linux is the preferred hack guy OS, hardly will be used by the Joe six pack or grandmother.On Linux, you have the sense to be free, Let's compile my tact toe game, install all dependencies distribute along many unknown content providers, instead of just press setup,Another point is software availability, Linux could win on server arena, all others areas is a loss by 10 to 1 in available professional titles.Linux is and will be forever Hack tech TI people OS desktop, Mass use only in the Android format

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 10:40:56 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 11, 2017, 10:18:32 amNo, snapshots aren't backups, but they're fine instruments for un-fucking your system if you did something idiotic, a patch went wrong, etc.If you just want to take a new disk and make it the victim of your voluminoushentaidatasheet collection?> zpool create backuppool DISK_NAME_HERE> zfs send ospool/somefilesystem@snapshotname | zfs receive backuppool/somefilesystemDone. Your snapshot - and all the data in it - now resides on your new disk. And if you didn't have a snapshot before, just make one:> zfs snapshot ospool/somefilesystem@snapshotname(Edit: Also, you can just dump a snapshot into a single file - you don't have to copy it to a different ZFS disk if you prefer shoving it down the network.)

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 12:47:00 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on November 11, 2017, 10:25:43 amSo, that's the reason why Cadence, Zuken, Eagle, Microchip, Altera, Xilinx, etc. are offering Linux versions of their, sometimes very expensive, tools?Just for the Joe six pack or grandmother?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 12:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on November 11, 2017, 10:14:29 amUhhhhh.... how is that not covered by the “and the server” in my statement, as well as my prior statements that Linux is clearly king in the server room?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 06:27:31 pm
content: QuotePresumably, that snapshot is the whole thing? That is, if I have 500GB of data the snapshot is going to be at least 500GB?To make it useable, I need to have a ZFSandworking OS to receiver it?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 08:35:26 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 11, 2017, 06:27:31 pmI think you would need the OS and the data saved using ZFS.I haven't really messed with it much, but as I understand it a snapshot is more or less a record of time stamped changes. The data required for the first snapshot basically takes no extra space at all, but the more files are changed the bigger the snapshot data gets. It's not intended to be a full on back up system however. You would normally set things up using some kind of raid or mirroring for that

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 08:47:34 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 11, 2017, 06:27:31 pmYes, but you can compress the data using whatever compression utility available such as gzip (fast) or xz (slower but offers high compression - can be fast if configured to use multiple cores). This way the backup will become much smaller.Example:Code:zfs send pool/fs@snap | gzip > backupfile.gzIt is a misconception that Linux does not offer good backup options. These days zfs is a first class filesystem, even on Linux and has been so for years now. Stuff like taking backups/snapshots of a running filesystem is a designed in feature of zfs. Zfs and its tools are excellent and highly efficient for various backup strategies, including full or incremental backups (zfs send/recv, with or without -i).There are lots of examples and tutorials on how to use zfs for backup. Take a quick look at these to give you a better feel of how zfs works:http://breden.org.uk/2008/05/12/home-fileserver-backups-from-zfs-snapshotshttps://www.howtoforge.com/tutorial/how-to-use-snapshots-clones-and-replication-in-zfs-on-linuxhttp://thegreyblog.blogspot.dk/2009/01/backing-up-zfs-file-systems.html

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 08:48:40 pm
content: QuoteOK, thanks. Interesting but not for meQuoteI wouldn't. RAID/mirroring is not a backup solution.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 08:55:03 pm
content: QuoteSome, indeed. But it is wise to plan for max and be pleasantly surprised. However, compressing means you can't use tools like rsync to transfer only changes (necessary to implement diffs if it's not native to snapshots).QuoteWell, that's the thing. I keep being told that but, so far, no-one has come up with an actualgoodsolution. The is one of the main reasons I'm not running Linux seriously, and every time I set up a system with the intention of moving over, this is the question which no-one has an answer to. It seems to me that the misconception is that it is a misconception.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 09:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 11, 2017, 08:48:40 pmNot in the strictest sense, no. It's not a copy of the data stored in a different location.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 09:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 11, 2017, 08:55:03 pmGo have a look atBareos

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 09:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on November 11, 2017, 09:28:24 pmNot in a loose sense either. It basically protects against one of the many, many common failure modes possible. It protects against a hard drive failing, but not against malware, power surges, other hardware failing and therefore writing corrupt data, your OS throwing a fit, et cetera. Even if you completely ignore that you want to save your data in a remote location, it's still not an adequate protection. Worse still, it introduces other failure modes, like the controller shitting the bed and ruining everything.RAID should really be seen as a way of improving uptime, rather than securing data.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 10:12:50 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 11, 2017, 08:55:03 pmRsync is the old way of thinking backup for filesystems that do not offer any snapshot/backup features. Zfs gives you a better and more efficient/faster way of doing backup, in particular of live filesystems. You don't want to rsync anything. With zfs what you want to do is e.g. send your snapshots to a remote backup server using a combination of zfs send/receive and ssh or simply put the snapshot in a file, whatever you prefer. In case your computer catches on fire and you buy a new one you can recreate your filesystem from the remote server or backup file. Fun fact,"zfs send" used to be "zfs backup" and "zfs receive" used to be "zfs restore" - send/receive might be considered confusing by most.Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 11, 2017, 08:55:03 pmWell, admittedly, you have to put a little effort into researching the zfs solution. But having a filesystem that actually makes backup a first class feature is excellent for those looking for a modern backup solution. Also, if you are not happy using the native zfs tools there are various helper scripts and alternative tools and zfs backup projects to be found online.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 07:36:59 am
content: QuoteI appreciate that it has these features built in, but the issue is that filesystems don't run code. Something thatimplementsthe filesystem runs code, so to issue a receive command implies an existing OS capable of using ZFS. Which, if you recall, I was not keen on.However, looking at it a different way, the bootable recovery application could indeed be a liveCDUSB of an appropriate distro, so thngs are looking up. Similarly, the snapshot can apparently be an incremental from a previous snapshot, so that's another issue made benign.I think this will need some thorough testing of actual disasters to be a comfortable choice, but thanks for pointing me at it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 07:39:07 am
content: QuoteI did look at, and almost try, bacula some time ago but eventually decided it was too big-iron for my purposes. This Bareos appears to allow for simpler use so I am taking a closer look at it. Thanks for the pointer.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 01:21:21 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 12, 2017, 07:36:59 amOh, I didn't notice that. Just be aware that there is none of the classic/old filesystems that actually supports consistent backup of a live filesystem. That is why existing backup tools try to freeze the filesystem you want to backup by you having to reboot into a backup application or in other ways freeze it by unmounting it or remounting it read-only temporarily - it's simply necessary if you require consistent backup images/snapshots. As you noticed with Image etc., this can be quite annoying/inconvenient.QuoteFYI - zfs was designed for enterprise by Sun and the design mantra was not to trust the hardware (hard drives in particular). It basically checksums everything and have been tested thoroughly for almost a decade now so in terms of data integrity you are pretty good with zfs.It might not be of interest, but if you don't require full system backup but just a solid and simple tool to backup your essential data then Gnomes Deja Dup is certainly a worthy mention:https://www.howtogeek.com/108869/how-to-back-up-ubuntu-the-easy-way-with-dj-dupIt can backup to external drives, cloud services, and remote servers using various protocols (afp/ftp/ftps/nfs/smb/sftp/ssh/dav/davs), all packed up in a friendly UI.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 04:35:55 pm
content: QuoteActually, they do. My current setup uses Microsoft's VSS to effectively snapshot a live system and then back it up whilst normal operations continue.QuoteBTDT, suffered the consequences. I use sync-type tools for some things, but for my PC I need a simple solution to get back to where I was without any messing about. An image is ideal, though copy-type would be OK if it could do a coherent copy. [Actually, one advantage of an image is speed - it tends to be much faster than file-by-file copying.]Re ZFS: There is a significant issue with that. Well, two issues but the big one is that, so far as I can work out, the incrementals relate to the live snapshot. That is, you take a snapshot and then a later snapshot can just record the differences, but it relates to the previous snapshot on the live system rather than the snapshot stored somewhere else. This is a no-go because it means you can't rotate media (aka 'never write to media holding your last backup'), and you can't skip backups.There is also the small matter of accessing the data - if the snapshots are single files elsewhere, you can't easily mount them to access individual files (or am I wrong?). Sure, you can restore to a filesystem but then you need the storage space for that. On my current system I can mount the backup as-is (obviously in RO mode).Next, not a killer but definitely not desirable, it's too much like programming. Sure, you can write scripts to automate things but that /is/ programming and debugging. I am way past writing tools to mess around with tools - at this stage in my life I want to use the computer for useful things - I am reminded that much of my lathe work involved making tools for the lathe rather than practical things that had a non-tool purposeSo, I am seeing zfs as a solution if necessary rather than as the go-to.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 04:58:50 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 12, 2017, 04:35:55 pmSamba on Linux is capable of providing Shadow Copy Service on an LVM-backed storage or with an underlying ZFS or btrfs:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Copy#Samba_Server

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 05:02:35 pm
content: You can combine rsync and zfs or btrfs to do consistent backups. I do this all the time. Run the snapshot command, this creates a static, frozen image of the filesystem. Both zfs and btrfs will make the snapshot available as a read-only filesystem (zfs does so under ${MOUNTPOINT}/.zfs/snapshot/${SNAPSHOTNAME}), btrfs under ${SUBVOLUME}/../${SNAPSHOTNAME}). You can run rsync on those read-only filesystems to a remote server or device. Once that's done, delete the snapshot. The use of rsync means that the backups are directly readable, and don't require a running zfs system to restore to.The send/receive model for zfs works when you want to replicate the filesystem to another server. I do this as well, I have a backup server running, and a shell script that, once an hour, makes a snapshot and sends the difference between it and the previous one to the backup server. In case something screws up, the script retains the three most recent snapshots so that the transfers remain incremental (the volumes are ~30 TB in size, so non-incrementals will take a while). As my workgroup's data needs grew over the years, I bought newer storage servers that hold more disks. The older ones become the replication targets.Unlike VSS or LVM, one does not need to reserve space for the snapshot(s), they use the same pool space as your regular data. To me, that's the biggest win for the next-gen (ones that use CoW) file systems like btrfs and zfs over the older ones. In addition to the backups, I also make a sequence of hourly snapshots (with the last 24 retained), daily snapshots (with the last seven retained) and weekly (last 4). If I screwed something up and it took me a few days to realize it, I can always go back to one of those snapshots to restore the data, no need to hunt for backup tapes.People have already written scripts for this type of stuff so a few minutes of searching is usually all one needs to get going.Getting slightly back to topic, it has been reported that there are patches to the Win7 updates that allow it to work on newer hardware. It seems like the only 'incompatibility' with new hardware is the test that's done by one of the system DLLs on start, so someone patched over that check. I'm sticking with Win7 for as long as I can (have to run Solidworks and Altium). My newer boxes at work run Linux, perhaps with gnif's hack I can run Solidworks in a VM.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 06:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 12, 2017, 04:58:50 pmWhat I simply meant is that it is not a native feature to the old/classic filesystems (NTFS, FAT, ext3/4, etc.). Yes, there are abstraction mechanisms on a higher level like VSS on Windows and LVM on Linux (if you choose to use it) that can mimic a way to do consistent copies of the filesystem while it is live but it comes at higher resource cost (CPU, memory, performance). Either way, for all practical intents and purposes, it will do the job.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 07:03:16 pm
content: QuoteThanks very much for the pointer/reply. It can be difficult, sometimes, to prevent pollution of new ideas from existing understanding of something else. I'll persevere down this road for a bitQuoteYes, and it does work - that's what I've done. But I think it just puts off the moment when one has to jump somewhere. Windows 10 shows the direction Microsoft has chosen to take, and they are doing their best to force everyone down that road. A typical, yet trivial, example isPaper Defense, a Windows version of the classic tower defender:This is only available for Windows 10 and 8.1 - if you try to download using Windows 7 it won't let you. Fair enough, you think, perhaps it uses some part of the OS that isn't in Windows 7, but look into it and you'll find that Microsoft didn't write it and it used to be available on XP. A typical source is CNET, but their listing now redirects the download to Microsoft's store. Plainly, Microsoft have taken something that ran fine on earlier Windows then killed it off for all but 8.1/10 for no technical reason at all. Just plain spite, AFAICS.I expect other things to go the same way just as soon as Microsoft work out how to do it under the radar.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 07:05:59 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 11:07:27 amJust because linux is not the answer to everything, doesnt mean windows IS the answer to everything. I dont personally care for Windows, but I have a VERY stable setup with all the software I need. I cannot be bothered trying to recreate this in linux because it just works. I dont enjoy tinkering with software, and bad workflow kills all my productivity. SO I put up with Microsoft, because atleast I know almost every issue I may have is documented. If I had more of an interest in software, I would probably use linux.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 07:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 12, 2017, 07:03:16 pmI'm not so sure it's spite. I think that the Facebooks and Googles of the world opened their eyes to the "customeristhe product" business model. The telemetry data they acquire from Win10 users is valuable enough to them that they want to force people into using it over older platforms that lack that ability. Another reason I think this is true is to observe how they're tip-toeing around this issue for corporate customers (Enterprise edition allows one to turn off much of the data gathering functionality, for example).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 08:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on November 12, 2017, 07:40:08 pmMicrosoft openly admits this. The enterprise and educational sectors won't accept the intrusion and have both the money and political leverage to hurt Microsoft, which is why they allow those versions to turn off telemetry.Of course, some of the reasoning behind telemetry isn't that bad. By having continuous feedback, it's much easier to adapt the OS to the current needs of the user. The old model of the Service Packs was a bit sluggish. Another issue they finally addressed is the huge issue they had with updates. Many people have had the problem of a newly installed copy endlessly searching for updates, often failing in the process. Microsoft is addressing that by the security rollups.Even though I can actually agree with both of these goals, I don't think the way they've implemented it is the right way. Though that really shouldn't surprise me, because it's the story of Microsoft. They have a history of doing the right thing the wrong way, and just missing the mark.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 08:10:25 pm
content: QuoteI wouldn't have felt that way a year ago, say. But I would think that anyone susceptible to being forced onwards would have moved by now, so the remaining lot are die-hard anti-10 users. The bad feelings generated by this kind of behaviour surely outweigh any small benefit from trying to drag those users along, so I can only assume it is cutting off their nose to spite their face. As an example, I would have eventually, probably grudgingly, migrated to 10 if it had shown some sign of being stable, but due to their own efforts I am actively looking at jumping to Linux. Or even Mac (the thing putting me off that is basically the cost).QuoteActually, what surprises me in all of this is that no-one has yet tried to sue the arse of the Twitboogles for what amounts to wiretapping. Had they got here in one jump they probably would have done (see, for instance, Phorm) but it's been a gradual ratchet of erosion. And, of course, we're just too easy to bribe.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 10:35:13 am
content: Coincidentally, on the subject of the suitability of Linux for the desktop, Munich had determined to save €4m by switching to Linux from Windows. Now, they've given it up as a bad job and voted to switch back to Windows by 2020:https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/13/munich_committee_says_all_windows_2020/A significant quote:Quote

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 11:05:36 am
content: QuoteWell, if I had 400 or so programs that wouldn't run on Linux I'd probably stick with Microsoft too.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 12:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 13, 2017, 10:35:13 amThe mayor of Munich is more or less in the pocket of Microsoft. The company who made the report on which this conclusion is based, is a microsoft partner..."Some observers, such as Silviu Stahie of Softpedia have indicated that the attempted rejection of Linux has been influenced by Microsoft and its supporters Mayor, and that this is predominantly a political issue and not a technical one. Microsoft's German headquarters has been committed to move to Munich as part of this issue."Already forgotten how mircosoft pushed/sabotaged/bribed the ISO commission for the office xml file format specification?https://www.techrepublic.com/article/no-munich-isnt-about-to-ditch-free-software-and-move-back-to-windows/http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/03/french-police-saves-millions-of-euros-by-adopting-ubuntu.arsFrench police: we saved millions of euros by adopting Ubuntu Linuxhttps://joinup.ec.europa.eu/news/french-gendarmerie-open-souhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_adopters

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 12:20:54 pm
content: I don't want to start an argument with you on this since there are two sides to most stories and, as you say, it appears that the Mayor is a Windows fanboi. However, I want to point out that the techrepublic link you give is three years old and doesn't relate to the present situation. There is also a good quote in it:QuoteIt seems to me that the problem isn't Windows or Linux per se but the users. Both OSs and office suits can and do use 'open protocols, interfaces and data formats', it just needs the users tousethem. Save documents in ODT format instead of docx, for instance. However, it is not just the local users but, as both this article and the one I link to say, external users. Munich has to be compatible with whatever they send and want to receive, so their hands are somewhat tied there.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 12:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 13, 2017, 12:07:31 pmIt's a real disgrace. Just shows that lobby-ism / money in politics is a real problem, not only in the US.As a tax payer I want my government to invest resources in open source and sustainable solutions that utilize open standards as much as possible. Also, I don't want to see this done on a city level but rather national level so that more money can be saved. In my country, we have seen too many government billion euro software projects fail. At least with an open source strategy it will be open for criticism and parts can be salvaged.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 01:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: lundmar on November 13, 2017, 12:30:57 pmMost tax payers want to have a government that governs effectively. It that means using Windows, so be it. If that means using Linux, so be it too. If everyone keeps imposing his ideals and ideas on public matters, it all devolves into mayhem.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 02:10:39 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2017, 01:13:02 pmIn reality not the taxpayers decide but the politicians who are interested in short term achievements only.On the short term, it could be very well that it's cheaper to stick with what you are already using. On the long term the picture can be completely different.It can be painfull and expensive to escape from vendor-lockin.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 02:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2017, 01:13:02 pmIf you are saying we are imposing anything on state here you are being a bit silly. What solution strategy is chosen is not a direct democratic matter in the sense every citizen gets or should have a say before a decision is made - hence no mayhem, at least not in my country. However, it's the citizens that elect people that will make such decisions and that is very much a political matter which is subject to public discussion. Having healthy discussions, even here or elsewhere, of ideas is how societies move forward.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 02:24:07 pm
content: Government or not, I tend to think it's better to not be held hostage by a single supplier of closed source software.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 02:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 13, 2017, 02:10:39 pmVery true, our capital city (Copenhagen) just chose not to go with the open source health care solution and instead they went for a proprietary solution written in a specific language (MUMPS) that most suppliers don't know or use. The result is that they are now basically locked to a single supplier resulting in increased risk and cost. It's a waste of tax payer money in the long term. The decision has been criticized from many sides since then.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 02:37:04 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 13, 2017, 02:10:39 pmEscaping vendor lockin isn't a goal in itself for a government. Spending the tax payers money wisely is, or should.There are obviously a few very enthusiastic proponents of anything Linux and open source here, but we also need to be realistic.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 04:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2017, 02:37:04 pmPractically they imply the same effect. In economics, vendor lock-in creates higher costs and lower quality and less choice.So, a government must, in order to save tax payers money, avoid vendor lock-in.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 04:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 13, 2017, 04:03:07 pmThat's a good story, but not how it practically works. Again, ideals are great, but don't always translate to a functioning situation. Governments are expected, required even, to be pragmatic. Being a zealot isn't serving anyone but yourself.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 04:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 05, 2017, 09:33:38 am

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 06:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2017, 04:30:27 pmIdeals are also important - it's a balance. In my country, we do of course expect our government to be efficient and pragmatic but we also have strong common ideals across parties that we expect our government to follow and we adjust and discuss them at length at every government election or if the government crosses the line.I think we simply hold different standards for our governments. If I were a betting man I would bet you are American - it shines through

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 06:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on November 13, 2017, 04:03:07 pmFixed.

author: Mattjd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 06:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: expinkolator on November 05, 2017, 02:31:11 amI have it, there are some things I don't like. For example Cortana, completely useless, trying to get her to open programs from microphone is like pulling teeth, she also auto searches bing with edge, I don't like that. There is some stuff I like like all the extra keybinds, they have snipping tools with dedicated keybinds. They also have promising stuff that just doesnt work though. Like their people app, messaging, phone. If they made it so i could connect my phone (windows or android or IOS) and let that stuff sync to my computer I would like it a lot more.The biggest turn off is them forcing so much stuff on me like Cortana, when it doesnt even work well. All the windows 10 integrations that are supposed to make daily use better like having htem track your packages and integrating your phone with it, and the personal assistance cortana sound so appealing but they dont work and you cant even get rid of them, that's what I don't like.As far as stealing data, who gives a crap at this point, everyone does it, its impossible for it to not happen.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 08:50:12 am
content: Quote from: lundmar on November 13, 2017, 06:01:32 pmI've seen too many laws being passed which seriously hurt some people in society, or the society as a whole because of party ideals. They really should be conducting evidence based governing, rather than pursuing their own goals and needs. If you hurt society because of your personal convictions, you shouldn't be a civil servant.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 09:38:11 am
content: Mother works in PASomebody pushed the use of OSS but realistically speaking, the only OSS they can use is-Firefox (but not when some internal PA website use active x)-Thunderbird (but not when some PA related software relies on outlook)-LibreOffice (but not when some PA internal official document or form rely on office extensions)plus, they are also plagued with bugs, frequent crashes and loss of data.Why? The reason is simple. Last time i checked they were still using OO/LO version 2.something.And why are they using it? because that's the version they are allowed to use. they can't just run the update every other day as we can do.Needless to say they are all begging to get back to microsoft

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 10:49:41 am
content: Quote from: Mattjd on November 13, 2017, 06:27:17 pmCortana can quite easily be disabled, though it might depend on your specific Windows edition.It worries me how people are going from uncaring disregard to fatalist resignation when it comes to their data. Somehow the middle stage of caring and action upon it is skipped over. Maybe it's because it allows people to remain passive, I don't know.https://www.howtogeek.com/265027/how-to-disable-cortana-in-windows-10/

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 06:17:51 pm
content: QuoteMore likely it's because fixing these things involves registry hacks. I run W10 on a laptop and didn't know you could disable Cortana, so 'normal' people may have not realised it's possible. If they did and found the like you posted, they would see:QuoteThey're not going to go any further. A couple of those and they'll just give up looking.And, of course, from this very thread:QuoteIt's under the radar. If someone stood outside your living room window taking photos of you and then charging the local gypos £24 a time for the negs, you'd be livid. Not on the net though. And that attitude has directly led to:QuoteNow, people expect not to be able to affect things and just go with the flow.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 06:36:19 pm
content: Editing the registry is not a hack. It's basically changing a setting without the fancy UI, yet with a built in Windows tool. That warning is there because there are settings in there that can properly mess up you system, but you'd have to be fairly careless to have that be a problem.Some sites even allow you to download the setting as a file, though you obviously have to be mindful of what you decide to execute on your computer.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 07:15:28 pm
content: Nevertheless, the warning does put people off. It putmeoff the first few dozen times, and anything that requires you to do a backup before attempting is not just lacking a fancy GUI.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 07:40:11 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 14, 2017, 07:15:28 pmYou still seem under the impression that making changes in the register is very dangerous. It's not. It's mostly a warning to prevent people doing stupid things complaining about it later. It's just a warning that if you throw yourself from the top of this jungle gym, there might be concrete instead of rubber tiles. There are many things that will land you in trouble a lot easier which are perfectly accessible from the GUI. If you monkey test Disk Management, for instance, you will get in trouble quickly.Case in point: the Telemetry settings for Windows 10 can be set to 1, 2 or 3 via the GUI. It might be just 1 and 2 in recent versions, I think they changed that. However, there is a equally viable setting 0 that's only available in Enterprise, Education and Server. However, you can't set this from the GUI. You need to edit the register, or set a group policy. If you set it to 1, 2 or 3, you change the exact same setting in the exact same database. It's just a different way of setting it.

author: nes999
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 10:25:59 pm
content: When I bought my laptop it came with specific instructions to leave it on windows 7 even though windows 10 was already out. So no issues for me. Granted I am one of those people who never update their systems anyway. When it dies ill buy the latest amd greatest and move on.Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 11:52:33 pm
content: QuoteA GUI app restricts you to app-specific settings. The registry editor restricts you to nothing, gives you no guidance, has no help or info on what or where settings are or mean, what they could be changed to (literally anything, but practically what useful values could be used), etc. The registry editor is NOT meant for normal usage - hitting the registry directly IS hacking, and it IS more dangerous that clicking some button in an app.QuoteSilly thing to do if you don't know what you want to achieve or the way to do it. But that is still safer than attempting the same via the registry.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 01:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 14, 2017, 11:52:33 pmYou almost sound like one of those people who think using the command prompt is hacking. Hacking is generally defined as repurposing something for which it was originally not intended, and is generally used when it's done in a clever way. Using a system provided tool to edit a settings database is not hacking, not even when the term is used in a very loose sense. When looking at legal definitions, it's literally impossible to hack your own system.The GUI isn't safer. I could instruct my mom how to make changes to a system with about 10 clicks of the mouse, which would render it inoperable and a pain to fix, all done through the GUI. If I were to randomly delete 10 register entries, it's unlikely you'd notice much at all. The reason for the warnings is that there are no further protections to keep you from doing incredibly stupid things, but that still implies doing stupid things. If things do break down after editing the register, you'll more than likely have the chance to simply revert the change.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 06:20:01 pm
content: QuoteOf course it is. Run up Word and go through all the settings doing your worst. You may totally screw your Word setup, but you won't affect non-Office stuff. By contrast, run up regedit and just change a GUID character or several and see what happens. Better, 'accidentally' delete any entry that takes your fancy and then try to undo it.The scope of the registry is global. The scope of a GUI is that app.Ah-ha, you will be gleefully thinking, 'GUI' could mean control panel apps (scope still limited to what the app is intended to dick with) or some Sysinternal thing. Same thing applies, though, and I'm pretty sure your mother might smell a rat if you dump some Nusoft until intended for low level hackery on her. The fact is that normal apps just don't give you the ability to screw up your system in anywhere near the same way you can with the registry.I think that's clear. Plainly, you need to score some point, though, so have at it and take it away.