I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 07:25:41 pm
content: This is a bit of a rant, but more so I wish manufacturers/developers of products would think about how their products are used and how the design should take that into consideration.About a week ago, I activated a new phone, all is well... I turned the phone off for a duration, and turned it back on to make a call. It powered up directly into an update screen and provide no way to pause or to stop it... Took about 20 minutes for the updates and it went directly to "optimize application" that took about another 10-20 minutes! Between download/install/optimized, I was unable to make a call for 30-40 minutes.For anyone who had emergencies before, 30 minutes matters a lot!Yes, the phone has been bugging me for a while about downloading the latest version of whatever. I answered no every time. Still, it should not just disregard my wishes and take over control by booting directly to the update. As I was looking at the updating phone, I was recalling the times when I had to call the police and times I had medical emergencies... 30 minutes could be the difference between life or death. Good that I was planning on just to getting familiar with this new phone before I switch back to my flip phone.And then of course, there are times when one merely turned the phone back on during meeting breaks to check voicemail and return urgent calls... Can't do that either should they decided: well, we have ask you to upgrade 10 times already and you said no, so hell with you and we are just going to shove it down your throat...

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 07:50:41 pm
content: Well, you bought the phone. Apparently, you are so important that you need to be connected all the time.Take a step back and think about rearranging your life a bit.Private corporations do whatever they like. You support them by buying their products.It's called "vote with your feet".

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 07:53:45 pm
content: This sort of thing makes my blood boil. I absolutely abhor forced updates, it is MY device and I will update it when *I* choose and on MY terms. This is NOT negotiable and trying to force me makes me furious. Imagine if your house was on fire or somebody was having a heart attack, I suppose there's probably some fine print somewhere that prevents the manufacture from being sued for wrongful death or whatever.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 07:58:03 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 13, 2021, 07:50:41 pmNonsense, this is not a toy we're talking about, a phone is for many people a critical communications tool, it isn't 1988 anymore and mobile phones aren't toys for the rich, landlines are pretty much a thing of the past and people expect phones to be reliable. Somebody could easily die due to a phone not working when they need to make an emergency call, most probably would never suspect this sort of thing would happen when they bought the phone. It will be some weeks, months or even years later when a forced update takes control like this, and the behavior can change at any time on a whim. It is more and more common for a software update to make it even harder for a person to control future software updates.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 08:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 13, 2021, 07:25:41 pmI think this might have a lot to do with it. When you hit the "Whatever" button (sorry I meant the "No" button) did you actually read the prompt beforehand?And if you're relying on a smartphone to make emergency calls, why on Earth are you turning it off a.k.a hard rebooting it? If it's for saving power or stopping incoming calls then just putting it into Airplane mode and putting it into standby will be perfectly fine.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 08:27:24 pm
content: My phone hasn't received firmware updates in 15 years and I wouldn't even know how to install them off the top of my head. Because it actually is a phone...As a general rule, I try to stay clear of products and services of Silicon Valley these days... Just a matter of personal prejudice, you know

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 08:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: nali on August 13, 2021, 08:06:53 pmThat doesn't matter. There is NO excuse for a device to force a software update and automatically take over and install it without the owner's express permission. I don't understand why so many people think this is acceptable. More and more companies are selling us the privilege of using their devices these days instead of selling us devices. If I make the choice not to update and that causes me to get hacked or not have the latest features that is MY problem.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 08:46:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 13, 2021, 07:58:03 pmWonderful! You just supported my post in the best way.Yes, mobile phones are the backbone of communication today. But smartphones not necessarily.I used to have one, but discarded it. The short accumulator charge life, lousy connectivity (I'm talking telecom here, not BT or WLAN) and nagging update messages soured me.This is what I have now:https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Doro-Primo-366-2-3-Black/dp/B015CGW7CK/With intensive use, I need to charge it once a week. If I don't use it, 2...3 weeks between charges are normal.Yes, it's unsuitable for surfing porn or doing status updates on Facebook.But I'll always be able to call 911/112 or whatever the call number in your country is.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 09:53:41 pm
content: I think when you have to enter your pin, there is a way to enter 911 or a dedicated button to do an emergency call.Besides, phones are clearly not designed for us, but 14 year old chinese girls, who spend 14 hours a day watching tiktok videos.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2021, 10:20:30 pm
content: Quote from: nali on August 13, 2021, 08:06:53 pmAs I said in the OP "Good that I was planning on just to getting familiar with this new phone before I switch back to my flip phone...."So, unusually, I was reading every prompt carefully to familiarize myself with this new phone. It was booted directly into the update without any prompting. Careless touch on a wrong prompt is extremely unlikely in this case.Phones are collecting too much to tell mama when it phones home. To avoid it collecting more stuff to tell mama, I normally keep the phone off whenever I can - I have the expectation that the phone can boot and speed-dial 911/emergency-line in under a minute or so.These days, people around are more likely to just video capture the emergency event instead of calling for help.... So may be the meaning of emergency-phone has shifted by now or soon will shift.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 04:54:37 am
content: You say in your title you wishsomesmart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this--but how do you some manufacturer doesn't?You are using your bad experience with one phone, and then using that to complain aboutallphones andallmanufacturers.This seems a bit unreasonable to me. Did you research the phone before you bought it? Did you compare different models and manufacturers to find one with the best design?I've had smart devices for years without installing updates, and never had an update forced on me. Updating older hardware to the newest OS will often consume more memory and resources, slow it down and shorten the time between charges. I tend to feel hardware works best using the software that was originally designed for it.So I don't share your experience, because my devices have never done this to me. Don't automatically assume all manufacturers and designers are the same.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 05:29:44 am
content: What mfr and model phone have you? All the phones I owned asked before updating the kernel and definitely not on boot. Recent OS releases prep in the background and ask before going down for a minute or three for the actual update.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 10:21:16 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 13, 2021, 10:20:30 pmThen my apologies for the implied slurI would expect an upgrade to be part of the process for any new smartphone, and a reboot to be part of that process - possibly more than one depending on how up to date the factory build was.My wife is definately one for clicking/tapping without looking... more than once we've had a conversation something like "Why is it doing this?" "What did you just click?" "Don't know didn't read it I just wanted to read this message first".

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 10:31:24 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 13, 2021, 10:20:30 pmYou're right there; "Smartphone" is becoming a bit of a misnomer now as the "phone" part is becoming very much secondary. Yes, it's not 1988 anymore and they are more mobile computers that can also do calls.There was a recent case of a young lad who got stabbed in London. What did he do - call for an ambulance? No, he Facetimed his mum who had to work out where he was and she then called the emergency services who managed to get there in time to save him. Maybe I'm just getting old but

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 10:40:02 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 13, 2021, 07:25:41 pmSome do understand - my iPhone 6s has never done that a single time. Come to think of it, no iPhone I've had has ever done that.

author: austfox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 11:05:51 am
content: How would the OP research the phone before purchase? I can’t recall any specifications that state ‘if you don’t update the firmware after 10 prompts we will automatically do it for you’.Sure, you could read private reviews, but many times these are hit and miss.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 01:49:52 pm
content: I hate the phone ecosystem in general. I wish they made phones that were simply a basic device running Linux to make phone calls, text, and take pictures. Get rid of all the other crap, but if I want to, let me install regular Linux packages.Dumb phones are the closest thing but they suck to use due to lack of full keyboard, and the cameras on them are usually very lacking.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 05:24:24 pm
content: Quote from: nali on August 14, 2021, 10:31:24 amBelow a certain age "get mum" is the normal reaction in dire circumstances, it's not unnatural at all. It may not have been the optimum response, but it's quite understandable. Most men don't truly accept their own mortality until they are 35 or so, if you're truly young it's probably inconceivable that mum won't be able to fix it, she has every time you've needed her to so far.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 05:35:13 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on August 14, 2021, 10:40:02 amIndeed, we have iPhones here and they never force an update. If you have auto updates turned on, they tell you that they'll update overnight when the phone is plugged into a charger. If auto-update is disabled, then you'll see a notification that an update is available but it will not start the update process until you explicitly allow it.I wonder why Rick didn't tell us which phone model by which manufacturer is causing him such trouble?I also don't understand his use case -- powering the phone down completely except when he needs to make a call. Nobody does that. The devices really aren't meant to be used in that manner. If you don't want the phone to ring during that all-important meeting, flick the switch to put it in silent mode. Or enable the "Do not disturb" feature.Comments in this thread like how "smartphones are only used by Chinese girls who spend 14 hours a day watching tiktok videos" veer off right into "OK, Boomer!" territory, with a dash of racism added.Ifyoudon't see a use case for the devices, that doesn't mean nobody has a use for the devices.As for the kid in London who Facetimed his mother instead of calling for an ambulance: that's not the phone's fault. On the iPhone lock screen lower left corner is the word "emergency." Tap that and it calls the emergency services. It's possible that nobody taught the kid that 911 (or whatever they're called in England) services exist. I'd say that the kid was pretty smart -- he was attacked and he still managed to hold it together enough to call someone! And if he was able to use the "send location" feature to let his mother know exactly where he was on the map, even better.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 05:46:22 pm
content: OK just for clarification the facetime lad was 16. I'm not going to link the article because it's largely irrelevent but the point I was making (perhaps not very well) was that actual 'phone calls are becoming pretty much secondary these days.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 06:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 14, 2021, 04:54:37 am[RL:bold added to quote]Yeah, you are right! It is a bit unreasonable to paint with such wide brush. Bit of a rant there actually.The phone was not purchased. I've been a long time customer, the account is so old (> 10 years) it was a grand-fathered account with plans that you can't buy anymore. They send me new phones for free to aid me in my transition as they kill 3G.It is probably unsold stock (0% battery remained when received) but it is actually a rather nice looking sleek phone. I rather like it but for the software bloat and lack of user-control. It is a waste on me. Someone who likes to be net-enabled everywhere one goes would probably rather like it. Heck, it actually made me think about a phone-plan upgrade...Quote from: nali on August 14, 2021, 10:21:16 amNo harm done. It is unusual for me to be extra careful and read every prompt wearing my reading glasses. Beside, who is to say I actually didn't make a mistake. Certainly could have happened there.* I never made mistakes, one time I thought I did but I was wrong... *Quote from: austfox on August 14, 2021, 11:05:51 amYup, if "...after 10 prompts we will automatically do it for you..." is embedded in a paragraph in one of the end-user agreements instead of a prompt, I might have missed it.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 07:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: nali on August 14, 2021, 10:31:24 amAfter one faced a real medical emergency, one's perspective changes...One danger is:when one is hurt, one may not be in a good enough mental condition to understand the nature of the emergency.Particularly when the emergency involves blood lost or anything else that may impact mental acuity.Normally, I rather not get so personal. I had my reservations about putting this in a public forum, but I rather fellow forum members not to have to face such "excitement" and also be aware how ones judgement can be impaired when one is in poor physical condition before having to face it.One time, I made my wife go to the emergency room. She had out-patient tumor surgery earlier that day. I was not seeing what they told me to expect. By late evening, I begun taking photo's to measure progress/deterioration. By late night, I was alarmed butshe thought she was okand just wanted to go to bed. Reviewing the pictures I took, I know she may be in more danger than she thinks, so I argue with her into submission. We got into the car and drove. I did not call emergency because I believed the time it took for the ambulance to pick her up and get back would have taken too much time.All along the way to the emergency, I was thinking, there would be hell to pay if she was indeed AOK and I just made her go in the middle of the night.She was well enough to walk in. After vital check in the emergency room, the medical tech reached for a big red alarm button on the wall. As the alarm started blasting, she got on her walkie-talkie and said something as she wheeled my wife into what they called the "resuscitation room" -- perhaps expecting she would need that any moment... It took a few hours to stabilize her and emergency surgery the following morning. She needed a couple more days in the hospital before she was well enough to be released.My wife saw those photos I took that night a month or so later. She was shock that she refused to go to the emergency that night. That really strikes me howblood lost can impair a person's judgement. That "night at the emergency" seer into my memory very deep.It was that night I was thinking of when my phone was "upgrading..."

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 08:14:19 pm
content: This is the first time I've seen "the forced-update problem" in the context of a possible medical emergency. But of course, personally not seeing it doesn't mean that it never happens.My common experience is with Windoze machines that are only ever on when they're used for something critical (projecting lyrics in a church service, for example), and they force an update then. My standard answer to that is, "MAINTAIN YOUR STUFF!!!! If you don't schedule maintenance on your time, then the machine will schedule it for you on *its* time."Practically, that means intentionally accepting updates when you know you won't need the device, so that it doesn't force them later when you do need it. And then check things afterwards to make sure they still work and there aren't any new surprises. Get familiar and comfortable with exploring the settings - ALL of them - so that you can both turn off every bit of tracking (which itself requires some thinking to see that a description of disabling an attractive feature actually means "enable tracking" because of how that feature works) and explore them again after a "feature update" to see what's new or reset.It's illegal in most places to force tracking, but it's apparently okay to have it on by default and to deceive/manipulate users into keeping it that way. Again, explore the settings and turn it all off bit by bit, and then it won't.Then you can leave it powered on and connected to the network, and the only tracking that can be done is which tower you're connected to at the moment. (the network itself needs that, so it doesn't search the entire world when someone calls you) When you actually need it, the 100% CPU load from startup is long gone.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 09:03:07 pm
content: Every smartphone is a personal computer with an internet connection in disguise. Treat it as such. If you don't, the manufacturer needs to do your homework in order to prevent your device becoming part of a botnet and actually harming others, or criminals stealing your identity or emptying your bank account. Forced updates are absolutely necessary from an IT security perspective.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 12:09:47 am
content: Quote from: AaronD on August 14, 2021, 08:14:19 pmThere would be far less backlash if they do it the Linux way - get most of the updating done in the background so it's a very quick reboot to finish. Or if a machine is only used occasionally, apply the updates the next time it is shut down.As for Android phones, one that supports LineageOS would give you the option to eliminate the junk and just have an OS that works.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 01:06:23 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 15, 2021, 12:09:47 amI built a live streaming rig just over a year ago, and put Lubuntu on it as the only OS. (Ubuntu under the hood, with a different GUI that looks and acts more like Windows by default, and I kept most of those defaults.) I also put a bunch of good open-source media-related apps on it, so it could easily be used for post-production as well as live. In fact, the only monetary expense in the entire rig is the hardware that it runs on. And between some tricks with OBS and some shell scripting, it's also the most automated broadcast rig that I've seen, by a long shot. Pretty much all the operator has to do now is art, not technical management.I disabled the "official" update method, and then "hijacked" the graphical shutdown command to run a script instead. That script either runs the original command most of the time, or on Sundays, it pops up a window to ask if it should stay on to update at midnight. (midnight because it's easy for a polling loop to detect, and we're probably not going to come back to it then with a nearly-forgotten task) The default answer (reflexive Enter key) is "yes, stay on and update," so it waits 1 second to let go of the mouse, and then activates a screensaver that simply turns the screens off. (otherwise, that screensaver has a ridiculous timeout so that it never interrupts a service/show/whatever) At midnight between Sunday and Monday, it runs theapt update|full-upgrade|autoremove -ycommands (individually, not as shown here), pipes their output throughts(system timestamp:apt install moreutilsto get it) to a logfile so if something breaks we can figure out why, and shuts down. Now we're fully updated on Monday morning with usually an entire week to test and troubleshoot if someone's paranoid.I completely agree that Windows NEEDS that too!There's also a Raspberry Pi in that rig, that pushes some standard settings into the digital sound board every time it appears on the network (only if it was gone for 2 hours, so the previous use really is done and not a power glitch), controls the cameras and the broadcast audio mix (aux output of the digital board, not a DAW), and does a few other things while it's there anyway. It has an even more hands-off update method. It's just on 24/7 - its power button is only for the screen - and its copy of the same update-at-midnight script has the shutdown command replaced by a reboot.Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 15, 2021, 12:09:47 amHmm. I didn't know about that. Do you have a link? Maybe even a list of phones?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 01:21:55 am
content: Quote from: AaronD on August 15, 2021, 01:06:23 amhttps://lineageos.org/There's also some unofficial builds on XDA, that may or may not be usable for everyday use.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 03:29:20 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 15, 2021, 01:21:55 amNice! Thank you! And the download page has a long list of phones too...that doesn't include mine.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 05:22:14 am
content: Quote from: Benta on August 13, 2021, 08:46:44 pmThatis your daily driver? The simplicity is not the issue here (well it is, but not the interface).I'm surprised that phone is still functioning in any civilized country. They are shutting down 3G in places, I would not trust 2G to stay running even next year.You can have a simple interface, but you need some more modern tech than that inside to keep functioning. They have keypad phones with 4G, I would recommend one if you want something that will last and not go obsolete soon.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 06:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: m98 on August 14, 2021, 09:03:07 pmQuote from: AaronD on August 14, 2021, 08:14:19 pm( bold added to both quotes)The "emergency" partis the problem I like the phone manufacturers and designers to be aware of, and hopefully put in the fore front of their priorities.Phone vs PC (general purpose computer) is akin to newspaper vs book.-- Both newspaper and book has printed pages for "user" to read, but thetime (freshness) expectationof the content is entirely different.-- Both phone and PC has processing power, but theurgency/immediateness expectationare different.I have witness a crime in progress that I wish I had a phone to immediately call the police. I have never witness a crime in progress and wish I have a PC to send an email to the police.In the USA (or at least my region of the USA), every time when you are done with anything medical, the printed instruction for recovery and monitoring of the recovery would contain "if there is an emergency, call 911". None of them I've seen has "when you have an emergency, text to 911 or email 911@...."A smart phone is not the same as a PC: the expectation of urgency and immediateness are entirely different. If we have to lower our expectation to that level, we have lost a great deal.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 07:32:10 pm
content: It is normally the case that a cell phone can dial 911 even if there is no active cell phone plan on that phone. It can also dial 911 if the screen is locked.So the legal framework and manufacturers certainly do consider emergency use cases in the phone design.As others have mentioned in this thread, the "forced update" scenario on a smartphone is very strange. Phones do not normally behave this way. Usually, they pop up a prompt saying "An update is available, do you want to install it now or later?"It is certainly the case with Apple phones that you can defer the update indefinitely if you don't want to install it. If you reject the update prompt enough times it will stop bugging you and just leave a notification in the background that an update is available.I imagine reputable Android phones will behave the same way, though I have no direct experience of this.Windows 10 is a whole other matter. I dislike the fact that modern systems no longer power off when you put them in sleep mode, and I dislike the fact that a computer in sleep mode can wake up and do stuff unbidden. With a modern Windows machine you are more or less forced to shut it down and restart it between uses if you want to be confident that "off means off".

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 09:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 15, 2021, 07:32:10 pmIt is a Samsung Galaxy S9. I am not sure how to repeat it, but encountered it I did. Possible I made a mistake there but unlikely that I did. It is that very small possibly of mistake and the inability to repeat the situation to confirm that I was reluctant to "finger point" a brand or model as disappointment. Besides, Ithinkthey had upgraded me from their regular cheap free phone to the S9 due to other factors (>15 year old account being one) and I don't want to appear as "looking a gift horse in the mouth" and complain about that gift-- while doing exactly that. (My vanity at play, that is a short coming...)I had done "factory reset" multiple times to try it with just the basic OS without update. Typically, I skip everything I could skip after the factory-reset's reboot and reboots typically without SIM or WiFi. On some cycles, I did tests some updates.My theory is:EDIT--this theory is wrong, see bottom of this edited reply.I did some update that had further effects on later reboots - such as needing further downloads (or actions) to complete an earlier updates. It didn't tell me about the further effect, that I am sure.I might have turned off notifications, that might have quieted the "later effects" notification. It did not attempt to download to finish after initial or later reboots without WiFi or SIM since data-link was not available. The "offending reboot"mighthave SIM inserted. With data-link possible, that sleeping "waiting to finish" could trigger and and triggered without warning. I am rather sure I had SIM inserted but not positive. That it was a reboot directly into update was a certainty.Some of the bloat-ware I tested were carrier's apps (such as the carriers' diagnostics and trouble shoot app) - theymayhave the ability to connect even without a SIM and pre-downloaded stuff. While the initial test occurred many reboots ago, it might have been the first SIM inserted-reboot. That lengthy 15 minutes "update..." and another 10+ to "optimize..." was way too long for typical app upgrade. That was what made me think it could have been pre-triggered updates (now with knowledge of the SIM provisions) and then a diagnostic, and the finish up by restoring connections to user-mode instead of diagnostic-mode... But, with 30 to 40 minutes already passed in frustration, I forgot which app I was testing. Just the frustration remained.Just a theory. I have no idea what actually it was.EDIT: the theory is WRONG.I tested my theory. I couldn't get that to "boot directly into update" with and without SIM and each with multiple reboots. The theory is wrong, it has nothing to do apps or SIM but with data-connection and when.I retested with WiFi alone, only tested reboots and touched no other apps.I learned something new:- Immediately after factory reset and initialize (without Wifi and no SIM), an update is scheduled (a notice: "Google software updates available").- This update will automatically start downloading when data connection becomes available. (another notice: "downloading software update, please do not leave WiFi coverage area...")- The download will survive multiple reboots.- On my phone, one big nearly full screen size popup some point in time: "Software update available". When I was testing apps, I would have associated that with the app I was testing. But this time, I was only doing reboots.- If left alone (unrebooted) at least some (if not all) updates will complete (I noticed home screen changed after turning screen-on, but no notices on update done).I probably got that "boot directly into update" by rebooting at a point where that auto-triggered download was ready to take over and it did.That phone is Andriod 10, and the update was immediately post factory-reset and I assume it brought the phone to the latest. It would be interesting to find out if future updates (not after reset) will be forced as well.

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 05:45:46 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 15, 2021, 09:23:10 pmInteresting. I have a S8 and, despite the usual annoyance, doesn´t allowing me to get rid of the notification, It never forced the upgrade. OTOH, I rarely turn it off, so it´s possible that I never triggered the same scenario as you did. Still, thanks for sharing this, it´s something worth paying attention to.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 06:58:28 pm
content: I edited the last reply with a theory of how "reboot directly into update" might have happened.After testing my theory. The theory is wrong. I learned something new and added the additional new info in the edits of the last reply.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 03:25:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 13, 2021, 08:45:29 pmBecause if you get hacked it's not just your problem and the fact that you don't understand that is exactly why these policies exist. It is your obligation to keep any device you connect to the public internet up to date. If you want to run an ancient system, don't connect it to the internet, ever, at all. If you do that, it won't automatically install updates. I get being pissed off that the phone takes the control away, but the reason it does is because there are so many irresponsible people like you and the OP who refuse keep their software up to date despite all the opportunities to do so easily.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 05:04:52 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on August 17, 2021, 03:25:19 amThese policies exist because software manufacturers lost their ability to do good software.The software makers failed their obligationin delivering a secured and fully functional product. They "remedy" their mistake by shifting the burden and cost of that failure for the end user to bare.As a result, huge amount of productivity is lost.Computer programmers are not the only ones using computers for sure, but lets look at just them for a gauge. According to DAXX.COM, 4.2 million programmers in the USA in 2019. Average programmer salary ranges from 42K to 100K (PayScale.com), 42K to 94K (ZipRecruiter), 49K to 82K (Salary.com).So, let pick a middle number, say 70K/year. About 40hr/week, 50week/yr, that is $35 per hour.If a patch causes each programmer to loose 12 minutes, that is 1/5 of an hour. That is $7 each for 4.2 million programmers in the USA alone. Just in the computer programming industry alone, almost$30 million dollar worth of productivity gone down the drain.Now you add the receptionist, the accounting people, the sales folks... even the factory workers. Even if they don't do the patch themselves, they may need retraining because of UI change or changes in operations due to the software changed.160 million people workingin the USA averaging $31.1K/yr. Figure 1 in 4 use a computer, that would make it 40 million users. Say the computer users are above average at 40K/yr, that would be $20/hr or $4 for 12 minutes. 40 million user at $4 each. That cost of patch balloons to $160 million USD for USA alone.$160 million is a lot of productivity lost.This mess that we are in is because the software industry failed their obligation in putting out a working and a secure product. Don't blame it on the users.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 02:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 17, 2021, 05:04:52 amThe silicon valley mentality: "Move fast, break things, fix them later." That's awesome for getting and keeping the public's excitement for new features and capabilities, and is perhaps 90% responsible for what our technology can do in such a short time since it was invented in the first place. But it also causes the problem that you describe.These people are not engineers, regardless of what their titles might say. They're kids in a playground.---But, if you're losing productivity because of a forced update, it means that you're not updating during your downtime. That puts the fault back on the user for poor maintenance.Likewise if you get hacked because you found a way to disable them entirely, which leaves you wide open to someone who studies them to see what vulnerabilities they fix.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 07:28:02 pm
content: Quote from: AaronD on August 17, 2021, 02:21:18 pmWith exaggeration to make a point... down time only exists in the comforts of a software/hardware development office.In some lines of business, the most expensive part is the capital investment that makes the business. It is foolish to keep the expensive machinery idle and paid for empty spaces all night. Paying for overnight staff at 1.5x salary or more to keep the place going 24x7 instead of 8 hours a day is common. That 3x increase in productivity for the capital is what made the business viable.A manufacturer I worked at, downtime was once a year for annual cleaning. Restarting and warming up the machine to thermo-stability will take up a full day on a good day. Any interruption in an operating line costs thousands as the clock ticks. Yeah, many of the line machines run regular windows with network connections. Part of the network is entirely internal only. Yeah they receive updates only as needed - the operating environment is tested then locked down prior to rollout, expecting no further change for the next 360 days.To understand our sales environment and learn how can I best support them, I attended their sales meeting regularly. I actually took a few days to tag on to a sales guy or two on the road. Sales staff prefer to take most of the downtime smooching with customers. Their getting from one customer to the next is when they take a breather. Dealing with updates is the last thing they want to do. By the time they really reach their downtime, they are too "poop out" to do anything that requires the brain power to add 1+1. So I ship them lock-down machines (or pretend lock-down by disabling certain things) they ship their machines back for regular maintenance. Upgrading what works is part of the budget that bring no real benefit to the operation of the company.Around 2000, I was in the warm and fussy software development environment. I attended an IT seminar. One of the speakers was a senior IT person formerly at FAA (Federal Aviation Admin). He shared with us that his system'sannual downtime budget is 3 seconds. He can use this 3 seconds whichever way he wants, but 3 seconds is the limit! You can bet any update is very expensive event in that environment.Yeah, a lot of people would like to switch places with others who do have "downtime". Outsourcing and off-shoring changed the picture a lot, but I believe most of affected would prefer to have no downtime than having downtime 24/7/365.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 08:37:43 pm
content: Seems like everyone has bought into the idea of having no stock at all, no spares, no anything except for what's actually in production *right now this minute*. Buy today to use tomorrow, nothing sits idle for more than a few hours.That's great when the entire world is operating stably, but how's that going this year?---Likewise for downtime-sensitive things. Have a hot spare anyway, in case the main one fails - maybe not a whole 'nother manufacturing plant, but enough that you can switch a run over to another machine while you fix the original - and then an update simply counts as a "failure" of that machine. Bring it back up, test it, and voila! It's "fixed"! Then do it again with another machine that needs updating, etc. Your advertised capability takes that into account: you technically have more capacity that what you advertise, but that extra is reserved for exactly this purpose.