Shoutout to those who caution against breadboards (and my CHUA Ckt) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 03:18:15 pm
content: One IC, dozen resistors and a couple caps. What can go wrong???For some reason, this grabbed my attention (pretty pics?; scope porn??) And ignoring the cautions on the websites, I decided to breadboard. Complete failure!!I said fine; I will use a protoboard and 803 parts. Again failure; could have been joints (lots of wire "traces"), could have been the ceramic caps.So I used strip board. Success!! Fewer joints, thru hole parts and non ceramic caps.This ckt is so unstable that physical vibrations can disturb it. I presume that is why ceramic caps are discouraged. And the breadboard makes for unstable connections and parasitic capacitance.Now I gotta learn the theory!

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 03:40:01 pm
content: I think you mean 805 SMD size.How about showing the bottom of that perf board? What type of protoboard (presumably solderable) did you use? Was it laid out well? Any pictures?I layout my protoboards in Eagle just as I do regular PCBs. My protoboards almost always are solderable duplicates of the very common solderless arrangement of connected columns of 5 holes. One thing to look out for, if you need to cut connections, is whether the connection is made on just one side or both sides.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 04:18:41 pm
content: Schematic?PSU decoupling caps?Chaotic oscillator?By "breadboard" do you mean "solderless breadboard"? If so, try some of the other breadboard products designed for prototyping. FFI, see example products towards the end ofhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/Choose thecombinationappropriate to your project.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 04:59:29 pm
content: Yeah I meant 805, but I also used a couple 603's. Schematic and BOM below. Also the Breadboard I use.As for the underside pics: you are making me embarrass myself, but I will take a hit for the team. I follow the rule of a good phtographer, only show the 2 % you like. Oh well.I call it strip board. No idea what it is called but where I got it. First time I used it and I like it better than the green boards. Cut the traces where needed with a razor blade.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 05:54:49 pm
content: Fascinating circuit, looks like Michael Kennedy's Chaotic Oscillator with Inductor replaced with Gyrator, like we did back in 90s. This is very sensitive to the capacitors, equivalent inductor and of course the coupling resistor, but also the op-amps used. Not surprised that the Plugin Protoboard gave some trouble.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/lorenz-attractor-(horowitz-design)-problems-on-pcb/msg3254644/#msg3254644https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/circuits-of-chaos/msg5890442/#msg5890442Fun circuit indeedBest

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 06:00:16 pm
content: Quotenormally the tracks are cut at the holes,a 3mm drill bit is a bit easier and safer if you dont have the proper tool

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 06:22:15 pm
content: I like breadboards in a Jim Williams sort of way ...

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 07:51:03 pm
content: A drill in a hole works. I got a 135° included angle to lessen the depth needed. However, you lose a hole that way.Images:1) "Layout" is how I do it in Eagle, I strongly suspect KiCad can do the same. The little white bar (lower left) is how I indicate a cut trace. Blue are backside jumers. Red jumpers are on top. The "x" is where a wire crosses a pad without a connection.2) Capture1 is a SparkFun solderable breadboard back. It's mostly just solder joints, but I sometimes have to add jumpers too. Backside is frequently a good place for decoupling caps.3) Capture2 is a close-up of two cut tracks. That was a first try of my own design for which I used square pads to facilitate adding SMD's. Jury is still out on that change.4) Capture3 is my preferred Dremel burr for cutting tracks. The shaft is 3/32. The tip is trapezoidal in cross section. With a steady hand, I get good cuts. One of the cuts in Capture3 is not my best work.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 10:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 27, 2025, 05:54:49 pmThank you.I got the Holy Grail!!!

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2025, 10:39:52 pm
content: I saw something like that when my HS science teacher took a few of us nerds to San Jose State in 1959/60.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2025, 03:24:34 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on August 27, 2025, 03:18:15 pmJust looking at the schematic you attached, the values would not seem to be problematic for a plugin breadboard. Would have liked to have seen a photo of the original construction. If the problem was cer vs film, would have been interesting to repeat it to see if that was the problem.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 02:51:08 am
content: Quote from: watchmaker on August 27, 2025, 03:18:15 pmAs I wrote, I would have liked to have seen your workmanship with the breadboard. No response so I attempted to replicate your results. The first thing I did was hunt down the website that shows the full description. I then verified the schematic you supplied to make sure it was correct.https://www.chuacircuits.com/howtobuild1.phpOnce verified, I built the circuit on my 30 year old breadboard with some telephone wire. I had no problems what so ever. Rather than using a split supply, I just stuck a couple of resistors in there to balance the voltage. Circuit draws hardly anything so no problem there.Showing my construction and scope waveforms. Maybe you had something wired wrong? That website warns about using breadboards but again, it seems stable enough.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 02:57:26 am
content: My old scope doesn't update fast enough in XY but you can still see the effects.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 06:10:19 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 03, 2025, 02:51:08 amYes, construction and measurement techniques are important, and if someone can't be bothered to take a photo of them then I don't see why I should be bothered to try to help them.The OP showing neither the schematic nor the intended function (despite requests) merely reinforced that.QuoteThat's because most people using solderless breadboards don't understand their limitations and how to minimise them. Even if they do, different layouts might cause a circuit to work well or poorly.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 11:53:33 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 03, 2025, 06:10:19 amApparently you did not bother to read the thread (In particular post 3). Given I did NOT ask for help, I am too busy with life to recreate a failure on the breadboard. I accomplished my goal without help, and merely wanted to acknowledge those who over the years have cautioned the limitations of breadboarding.Peroanlly, I cannot be bothered if one does not read things before criticizing.So it goes.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 12:02:46 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 03, 2025, 11:53:33 amMy mistake, you did supply a schematic after being requested to. I had forgotten that since, not being able to rotate my head through 90degrees, I couldn't read it.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 12:17:59 pm
content: Sorry about your neck, but apparently others figured it out. I had rotated in the photo editor but apparently uploaded the wrong version. Apologies for the inconvenience.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 02:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 03, 2025, 11:53:33 amOften I see similar posts here where there is finger pointing going on but little to no data to back up the claims. When you wroteQuoteYou are suggesting the problem is the bread board and stay clear of using one.Are ceramics really a problem with this circuit? Uncut leads, way over sized.... Works fine. My claim is that a circuit like the one you show could easily be constructed on a breadboard.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 02:27:21 pm
content: Recall this Michael Kennedy Chaotic Oscillator version which we created also with a Gyrator Inductor back in 90s was sensitive to certain components, and obviously the coupling resistor (pot).The OP version shown on the B&K analog scope looks exactly like we recall and nicely shows the two Lorentz Attractors with Bifurcation. By slightly changing the coupling resistor the Bifurcation ceases and the result orbits around one of the attractors.Fun circuit to play around with, way back when we were involved our goal was an Analog Encryptor where the Lorentz Attractors were the "Encryption Code".Best

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 04:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 03, 2025, 02:27:21 pmSounds a bit like SIGSALY, without the predictability of duplicate phonograph records.I first saw a chaotic oscillator c1985, just before fractals became pop-art in 1986.I was beguiled by them, but never came up with a USP for using them. Of course, chaotic behaviour was always practical and important, in a "stay away from theses dragons" sense.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 09:03:19 pm
content: Shown with a completely different type of ceramic caps. Still works fine.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 09:17:11 pm
content: ..on my "electronics" bucket list, I guesshttps://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/outreach/kits/chaotic-oscillator-kit

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 11:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 03, 2025, 02:04:40 pm"Often" is not equal to "always". And it is difficult to discern where you could interpret I implicitly or explicitly implied the issue was breadboards. Other than thanking those who have cautioned about their limitations (parasitic capacitance) I was silent regarding the utility of breadboards and even indicated my skill likely interfered with my first hard wire attempt.It is nice you were able to make it work with ceramics and breadboard. But your skill level surpasses mine and even that of the writer of Chua Circuits. Congratulations!I am happy with my end result though. Learned a lot. Not the least of which was how to modify strip board. It happens I have in my watch bench a set of vertical disc cutters we use for chamfering. They work beautifully.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2025, 11:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 03, 2025, 11:24:45 pmDon't forget the inductance and mutual inductance of long wires, and variable contact resistance when the desk is banged or someone sneezes. Sometimes those cause endless "joy".

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 07:16:39 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 03, 2025, 11:35:09 pmAt these low frequencies and large part values, I don't see parasitics being much of a factor. That's the reason I questioned OPs post in the first place.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 08:40:01 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 04, 2025, 07:16:39 amAgreed, and I asked questions too.Even so, in TAoE x-chapters there is an example of a textbook one transistor one resistor audio circuit that behaves entertainingly.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 11:05:44 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 04, 2025, 07:16:39 amOk, you are the smartest boy in the class and I am just a learner. Hurray for you. Still, you made unsupported assumptions in your responses. OP did not ask for help, OP stated source for concerns, OP did not state breadboards were useless. OPDIDtake into account the cautions of an authoritative source about using breadboards and disc caps. OP is not yet at the level of doing the math on the circuits.You merely showcased whatYOUcould do (whoopie!!) rather than ask questions of OP and test your assumptions and OP's skill level. I would hope you apply these basic strategies in your professional life at least.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 11:24:33 am
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 04, 2025, 11:05:44 amThe thread, and comments therein, are not solely foryourbenefit.If you start a conversation in an open room, don't be surprised if other people listen and make comments.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 01:53:23 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 04, 2025, 11:24:33 amI do agree with OP in that there was no math, no design, no understanding of circuit itself required to build this circuit. This is something I expect anyone getting started could accomplish. While they may be upset by my posts, my reason is so other's attempting it are not misled by some of the comments. It's for their benefit.With OP downplaying what I have shown, I have to wonder why they started the thread. Failure as been a big part of my entire career. If I had failed in my first attempt, I would be digging in to understand why. Hopefully persevering and learning something.This is maybe the most important lesson for the beginner thinking about engineering. Don't take failures as a set back. Rather learn from them and move forward.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 02:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 04, 2025, 01:53:23 pmThat's been my experience and my reaction,andSomeone once said the most exciting sound in scienceisn't"eureka", butis"that's odd".

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 10:57:09 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 04, 2025, 01:53:23 pmFirst, OP does not need advice from you about handling setbacks.Secondly, who cares what you wonder? Not the OP. You certainly seem to have an overinflated sense of self.FWIW, OP made the reasons for posting clear in post no 1. It is not OP's problem if you cannot read, as your compatriot was forced to admit.To tell the truth, this sounds more and more like sour grapes that OP had the temerity to show something you very likely, and others have acknowledged, did not know about. All you did was replicate what OP executed. OP thinks it terrific you followed his path and even did with a bread board what OP did not, and based on authoritative opinion and moved on to more solid construction.What is striking is you cannot even bring yourself to say: "Great perseverance, cute circuit, glad you finally were able to execute it." Sour grapes.Your kind is a dime a dozen. Into the plonk bucket you go.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 11:40:32 pm
content: QuoteThere is nothing in your original post that explains your reason for posting, only why you attempted to build it.Quote from: watchmaker on August 27, 2025, 03:18:15 pmQuote from: watchmaker on September 04, 2025, 10:57:09 pmHad it been your original work and you detailed it, I would have actually been impressed. Copying others work and constructing such circuits, not so much. It would be like me posting every circuit I put together in my 101 electronics kit from Radio Shack. No one would care. I suspect your desire for a participation trophy was the actual reason for posting.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2025, 11:44:59 pm
content: I think its contacts. I am not 100% sure, but1) resistor leads seem rather thin, is this a cheap resistor pack?Look at the leftmost resistor, it looks like a real part. The other ones look like chinesium.2) those potentiometers look like the leads are not appropriate for bread board either, it looks like a TO-style lead.What I see with breadboards is that unusually complicated circuits (often ground control substitutions, i.e. LDO 'controller' instead of bias resistor on high Z) suffer from poor transient response and high noise, but often do work. They are 'jumpy' , over shoot, etc... parasitics make these screwy @ high Z even if its low frequency, sometimes.Using too thin leads, and also odd things like those potentiometer leads, results in trouble. Also trouble if there is any solder remaining (you need to very diligently solder wick those parts that you intend on breadboarding and clean them very well), those potentiometers look desoldered

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 01:03:13 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on August 27, 2025, 07:51:03 pmThis is pretty much what I do - add that bog-standard stripboard (using the dremel bit to cut tracks between holes for denser circuits) easily accepts 0805 on the back between tracks, and if you cut the holesjusteither side of the hole - an SMD part parallel to the track. It's no good for SOIC (adapters), but handy for passives and you can get surprisingly good performance out of it - plus as its paper based its easiler to cut. I've had 433MHz circuits working on it, but thats pushing it, wouldn't really trust any "high speed" stuff. The holes are for TH parts and connectors. I build a lot of guitar effect pedals this way so they're small, and the boards have a standard connector pinout so I can hotswap them in and out of enclosures with pots.You can of course get FR4 stripboard, which is much nicer, but harder on tooling.And yeah, Eagle is great for stripboard layouts with all TH parts on a 0.1" grid, SMD on a 0.0252.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 11:01:15 am
content: Thanks to you both. I learned in the days of point to point wiring.One of the things I have learned is that we got away with that because our circuit sizes were much larger than the wavelengths. Today with such small circuits a lot more thought has to be paid to layouts.Putting that aside for the moment, I am in the very early stages of constructing circuits on perfboard and veroboard. Given my age, I decided to standardize on 1206 parts. I have worked for 40 years with a 10x loupe and the last 20 with scopes, but I now deal with essential (ironic name) tremors. So placing anytihng smaller becomes a matter of timing and luck.I will not get to the point where I have to apply transmission line theory to my circuits, but I do want to improve my technique.I am busy during the day for the next few days doing trail work, but I will post one evening a pic of an Elektor project I am constructing on Vero. One of the issues is while I know (even from 50 ears ago) that cap leads must be kept short, how to handle running a cap from the middle of the board to the ground plane. Is it better to just run with cap leads, or is it better to establish another ground plane that is then joined to other grounds via hookup wire? I so know the role of the cap is a consideration.I did download Kicad at JP's suggestion, and I found the tutorials by Vegeta (I thinK), but now I need the time to learn yet another computer program (CPM, PDP/8 .....).

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 11:18:28 am
content: Oh, FWIW, here is an analysis of the Chua ckt:

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 04:45:09 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 05, 2025, 11:18:28 amAlso, check out ref 8 in this paper, Michael Kennedy version (Robust op amp realization of Chua's circuit) from early 1992.Best

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 05:17:17 pm
content: I come to the defence of the OP not because that’s needed but because I had a very similar experience years ago. I used a solderless breadboard for a simple circuit, it wasn’t the cheapest one from Ali but from a local store, and it was crap. Just touching anything would throw things out like crazy. Maybe older breadboards were better, contacts tighter, but now they’re all crap. So what I learned is… solder, solder, solder as short as reasonably possible. And in many (read most) cases , when the circuit is complex, I go straight to JLC.Miti

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 08:35:33 pm
content: check the leads with a micrometera proper resistor I can touch and it does not cause a problem with a regular bread board. the problem occurs with the cheap resistor packs that have angel hair leadsall the 'great' deals I got, which had fairly stable resistors (50ppm), in large quantity, had shitty leads. Not a great resistor because it corrodes easy to failure (thin) and does not work in breadboard, even if its a stable film resistor that is electrically accurate (1% and under 50ppm / c drift).my breadboard never went crazy from touching unless that node has been damaged prior by something like a solder coated to-220, or angel hair component wire, or a gnarly cut (shoving bur on cut wire into breadboard hole, which acts as abroachlol, you needsharpcutters to make a 'breadboard' grade connection)Some good components have unusually fine wires which make them problematic for breadboards (some film caps, the ones that look like chicklets)https://paceworldwide.com/comform-1-lead-bending-and-component-forming-tool-esd-safeThis tool is a god send.Also what destroys breadboard is hook bends, where the part you are inserting is not straitened.IMO there is a severe lack of appreciation for proper wire forming operations that leads to breadboards getting a bad reputation. IMO its skilled labor that needs practice and diligence, perhaps you can say the breadboard is not given the respect it needs, the tolerances it actually works well with are precise.You can feel it easily on a resistor bending jig too, proper resistors take some force, the cheap ones bend with zero effort. The breadboard contact is designed for a proper resistor lead.Its actually very worthwhile, because if you do it right with the right parts, you actually observe the effects of the parasitic inductance and capacitance (usually on transient response), instead of lumping contact issue related observations into parasitics, giving you a totally warped understanding of what the effects of inductance and capacitance are on circuits because the effect you are actually seeing is contact issues.The other big problem is with jumper wires, I think that some of the insulation on those jumper wire kits is way too springy, and the omni-nature of the breadboard is not compatible with wires that are that stiff. If the wire is very stiff for the jumper, its torquing the contact and stuff, so even if you have the right size crimped on it, the forces all wrong and you get intermittent operation.I also feel that university labs where people learn breadboards take zero effort to actually spec the parts they give you right, so your first experience is shit

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 09:00:33 pm
content: the only thing I think that is unfair about breadboards is doing the complex wire routing where you need to snake it. The strait jumpers, with the lead former tool, are entirely solved and 'jigged'.If you ever learned how to professionally bend pipe, you know that there is guidelines for bend radius, a bending jig, and a technique (with lookup table) for marking the pipe for bending. To do a snakey wire bend right, you would need to... basically make a work plan for bending a single wire, and measure/mark things.Of course, no one does this with a puny wire because its total overkill, so in this aspect its up to your reasoning and spacial awareness skills to solve this problem... so some people have extreme trouble getting nice wiring, and they have to work with alot of slack, making the wiring less then ideal, if you have complex bends in the wire. I noticed this makes perfectionists go bananas. And if you can't do this, then you start getting arches, instead of flat wiring, which gets ugly and unstable, especially with dodgy insulationUsually this workshttps://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/430152/the-art-of-using-breadboardAnd this is where you start getting raginghttps://i.ytimg.com/vi/SxvbmE4p0ts/maxresdefault.jpgAnd it has to do with how good of a project planner you are, because some people flip out when you tell them to do it neat because it takes time, but of course what takes more time is when the gamble does not pay off and you have to trouble shoot a tumbleweedI have a feeling alot of the breadboard hatred really is something along the lines of "I hate the fact that I need compatible parts and worksmanship" and "I prefer soldering because it works with all parts".I can't blame someone for wanting to use non compatible parts in droves without problems, but its not a reason to hate on breadboards, its just not compatible with what your resources are......

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 09:09:59 pm
content: Much easier and faster and more robust to simply use solder with Manhattan or rats nest techniques, on a solid ground plane. Whole swathes of failure modes simply don't occur.Do it neatly, and under some circumstances you can ship the implementation as a deliverable, e.g.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 09:13:36 pm
content: but in my opinion, proper planning / appropriate parts / proper implementation of breadboards... don't have swatches of failures. The tolerances are much easier with solder, so there is a reduced need for planning.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 09:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 05, 2025, 09:13:36 pmI refuse to debug tumbleweeds which subtly change when someone sneezes or bangs a door.I'll take the easy route with fewer surprises and changes - and less planning: Manhattan with dead bug. Plonk the main component down and attach other components where convenient, one subcircuit at a time.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 09:29:12 pm
content: What I am thinking about is having to build that kind of stuff at work after a rough night. I can hack being precise with hand tools in a predetermined way, strip some wires, maybe solder a daughter board on hot air... if you have a work station setup for itCutting a bunch of stuff, gluing, massive amounts of soldering... its too much , and I know for sure I can't get someone else to do it.Some how I always felt that the bread board/non solder / minimum solder prototyping solutions are substantially less exhausting lol, also the fume extractor noise.I say be careful getting rid of bread boards, it might come back to haunt you one bad day.Also, the solder wicking, the clogged solder removers, etc. I am convinced that if we went 100% solder people would be getting wrestled out of the lab by building security once in a whileI saw someone start to lose their cool over re-using the last compatible grabber hook (severely contaminated with solder) last week for a custom cable harness, thankfully it was just one so I did it for them and the problem went away. I see alot of BS being solved by breadboards that keeps things 'running smoothly'.I love that with wire, I can say things like "put the wire in the big pliers to straiten out the end, and cut the last mili meter off with the better side cutter" or "bend it on that black staircase thing" then put it back the same way you did it on the other half of the board, instead of having to sit down for 30 min to an hour and tell them "watch what my hands are doing very carefully" !

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2025, 10:31:06 pm
content: All techniques have strengths and weaknesses, the trick is to choose the combination for your specific job.There's nothing preventing using neat wiring techniques with Manhattan, of course.People will damage equipment whichever techniques is used. Soldering grabbers does seem extra "special", though.Reasonable techniques for avoiding long probe shields, allowing you to practise wire bending

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2025, 02:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 03, 2025, 11:24:45 pmNo, it is not difficult at all. You implied it multiple times throughout this thread, including the original post.Quote from: watchmaker on September 03, 2025, 11:24:45 pmBut the author of chuacircuits.comdidget it to work on breadboards:“Build” page 1:Quote“Build” page 3:QuoteThe author’s conference paper titledChua’s Circuit for Experimenters Using Readily Available Parts from a Hobby Electronics Storeshows both a Fritzing layout for a breadboard, as well as a photo of the actual circuit assembled on a physical breadboard, and oscillograms of the resulting output.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 01:31:14 am
content: Looking at the paper you reference where they built it up on a breadboard. They show some long leads and spread that circuit out a fair amount and it still worked.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 01:53:07 pm
content: I tried a breadboard and failed. I live in SW Florida and my parts and soldering stuff are in the garage. Component leads are a tad oxidized. It was not even easy to solder them.I seem to remember that breadboarding works better with new components (less oxidation).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 01:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: Grandchuck on September 07, 2025, 01:53:07 pmThat is a really, really interesting aspect that I don’t recall anyone mentioning before! But it would make complete sense that heavily oxidized leads could cause issues, especially on inexpensive breadboards with weak contact pressure.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 02:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 07, 2025, 01:57:44 pmThey have, either explicitly or implicitly under the generic category of "contact resistance" which includes being previously soldered and other things.The question isn't whethersolderlessbreadboardscanwork, it is what is theprobabilitythey will work or exhibit strange behaviour.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 04:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: Grandchuck on September 07, 2025, 01:53:07 pmI've used similar boards for wire wrapping. For point to point, I like using the single sided square pads. 0805/1206 easily straddle the pads. The pads are easily (maybe too easily) removed with the iron if you need more spacing.This example shows a lot of jumpers (0 ohm) where normally I use WW wire and bridge the pads.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 11:12:06 pm
content: Same circuit built on vector board using the square pads I previously mentioned. Normally I would surface mount this thing but for purposes of showing technique I used all TH components as before.It seems just a stable as the bread board and I did not notice any difference in the performance. It took a lot longer to construct. It would be a big pain in the ass to correct a mistake, so worked at a much slower pace than I would with the breadboard. For circuits I have no use for like this, I would not waste my time.Both techniques required no troubleshooting, so can't comment outside of I expect moding the breadboard would be much faster than the vector.***Salvaged this junk box. Perfect fit.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 08:00:02 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 07, 2025, 11:12:06 pmYeah, that sounds about right.I tried itonceand came to the conclusion that it is easy to overheat and remove the copper circles, and arguably they combine PCBs’ and stripboards’ worst features.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 12:57:16 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 08, 2025, 08:00:02 amIt appears that the circles on Grandchuck's vector board are PTH. The squares on mine are glued to the surface only and easy to remove. Their benefits with what Grandchuck shows is I could tack a couple of pins of a socket to hold them in place, and the boards were much more stable. Some of the larger boards I built used ribs to strengthen them.QuoteMost of what I built prior to one off PCBs becoming so cheap were WW. I don't see plonking down or dead bugging a few hundred pin IC. Compare the wiring density of one of my projects compared with yours.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 01:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 08, 2025, 12:57:16 pmWhen I'm manhattaning, I'll sometimes chop up small squares of PCB and superglue those to the groundplane PCB.QuoteI used WW in the 80s for digital logic, but by the mid 80s the reduced rise/fall times made it less tenable. In the early 90s I did once use an IDC variant of WW successfully, since the stubs/antennas were much shorter. The IDCs were two level, so you could get 4 wires/pin. The board was impressively expensive!QuoteThose aren't my projects; they are lifted from the webICs like that almost demand a pukka PCB. I know some people have built computers on solderless breadboards, but I regard that as heroic and doomedIt is all about choosing the rightcombinationof techniques for the current job; one technique certainlydoesn'tfit all. Similarly for DIY use screws and nails and glue as appropriate.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 03:03:15 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 05, 2025, 04:45:09 pmMawyatt,I followed the rabbit. I was intrigued how this ckt is used in encryption. I understand substitution encryption somewhat (like the rotors made by USN Waves at NCR during WWII) And I understand keys.I found this:https://www.mdpi.com/2227-7390/11/11/2585#:~:text=The%20idea%20of%20chaotic%20image,a%20higher%20level%20of%20securityWhich helped.Could you give a general explanation of how the Lorenz equations are used to create a key? Is there some point at which a key is "randomly" chosen after stating the initial conditions? Is part of the strategy to create a key that takes too long to generate for eavesdroppers to use for action? Fascinating stuff.And I learned a new term:"ergodicity".Then I found this: A Concise Guide To Chaotic Electronic Circuits (springerbriefs In Applied Sciences And Technology) Which uses Kirchhoff's laws to explain the action and made it more understandable to me.Is there a way to slow down the formation of equilibrium so that the process can be observed?And knowing that chaos theory is a component the algorithms used in the financila markets really drives hoe the fact that the Buffet way to analyze stocks is sooo obsolete!

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 03:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: Grandchuck on September 07, 2025, 01:53:07 pmAs you and others have noted, some of us a "farmers" at heart. And boy can we have a nixed bag of components to choose from. And as someone else said, you gotta use a technique that takes into account your resources. Other than my now standardized 1206 resistors and caps, almost everything is thru hole although when I order actives I throw in 10 of the SMD version. I figure if I use one, I will likely use another down the road.I do the idea of deadbug and manhattan, the caveat being how to store them. 3D printing makes casing easier, but I do not have that resource around me.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 03:43:21 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 08, 2025, 03:18:21 pmAltoids tins are a traditional metal enclosures.If you only need a naked board occasionally, just store them in a plastic food container.foodChop up a PCB to make walls, then solder those to the circuit PCB.tAny of those are better than solderless breadboards!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 04:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 08, 2025, 01:24:36 pmOver all the years, I've never known you to post any of your own work. I just assumed you were an armchair sort of hobbyist. No big deal but I enjoy designing and constructing projects.That first vector board with the surface mount was the one that was built using that home made soldering iron and 100 year old blow torch, outside in the rain. No need for anything fancy to build such circuits.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 06:11:01 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 08, 2025, 04:06:48 pmNowadays I am more armchair than not, but I have posted things typically in the middle of other threads, and in other places.I don't bother to make a song and dance about it, since I regard them are interesting principally to me.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 06:51:54 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 07, 2025, 02:47:27 pmWell, I suppose... but I don't recall any of the debates having addressed oxidation of the component leads. When we discuss breadboards "with poor contact resistance", we mean the contact resistance imposed by the breadboard itself, not the things plugged into it. (And yes, I've seen awful ones with multiple ohms per contact! I now use that only as a soldering aid.)Quote from: tggzzz on September 07, 2025, 02:47:27 pmThat's a stretch.Quote from: tggzzz on September 07, 2025, 02:47:27 pmYes, that's true, but... From the anti-breadboard league, one would be misled to think that they fail 99% of the time. I don't think that's true for quality breadboards.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 07:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 08, 2025, 06:51:54 pmThat would be a perverse definition.Contact resistance is everything between two conductors, not between one conductor and some hypothetical X.QuoteThat is a self-fulfilling statement, and hence not useful. "There's no such thing as a trueScotsmanbreadboard".What proportion of breadboards are "quality"?How does a beginner determine that one is "quality" before buying it?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 10:34:36 pm
content: If I buy the cheapest breadboard I can find, I am guaranteed something that will never work for the circuit shown in this thread?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 10:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 08, 2025, 10:34:36 pmDefine "work"Don't forget to include duration and environmental conditions in that definition.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 11:07:03 pm
content: I want something that is a complete waste of my time. I want something so bad that I waste more time fiddling with it than what it took me to hard wire that last vector board. If I am able to get the circuit to display the correct waveform in roughly the same time I spent constructing the first one, I consider that working, and a complete failure. I want the worse breadboard.QuoteEnvironment is my office desk, not deep space or under the car hood. Duration, it needs to run as long as my last breadboard. A couple of hours is good enough. But again, if I am able to get it to display a waveform for even a minute without fiddling with it, that's not good.The goal is to experience all the bad things you describe. Seems easy enough based on how bad you suggest they are. So get me the worse of the worse. Something I would be lucky to get a resistor, LED and battery circuit to light up..Back when I had to breadboard for college, they had to survive the trip to the lab and last long enough to get them signed off.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 07:04:55 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 08, 2025, 11:07:03 pmWeirdly I can't remember what I used at college for typical experiments.My final year project was wirewrapped TTL, and for several years I had been making my own PCBs using multiple inventive etch resists (sticky backed plastic, enamel paint etc!). This 1973 example appears to be enamel paint.That digital clock still works; I've converted it to be a Vetinari clock by diddling the interval between 50Hz pulses.The wire came from London Air Traffic Control centre; I'm still using that as single strand hookup wire!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 01:25:49 pm
content: That's all fine, but I am looking for a good example of the worse breadboard that will guarantee my complete failure when attempting to use it. Surely you know which is the worse of them. Provide me a link and I'll give it a try.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 06:13:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 08, 2025, 07:40:10 pmOnly if one is determined, as you are, to find fault in everything.From a practical standpoint, it's perfectly sensible.Quote from: tggzzz on September 08, 2025, 07:40:10 pmThat's been discussed at length in other threads. Y'all always disqualify even brands known to be top-notch, declaring them to be equally useless. There's no point in rehashing it with you because you'll still just dig in your heels.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 06:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 09, 2025, 06:13:33 pmHow do youmeasureyour concept of concept resistance? Numbers, not adjectives, please.How do you use it in practical circuits?In the absence of solid actionable answers, from a practical standpoint, the contact resistance between a contactor and air (or another gas) is perfectly useless.QuoteIn the absence of anything remotely addressing the points, I'll ask again...What proportion of breadboards are "quality"?How does a beginner determine that one is "quality" before buying it?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 06:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 09, 2025, 06:26:11 pmLowest resistor used in the circuit shown is 100ohms. I doubt you want 100 ohm contact resistance but 1% of the lowest, or 1 ohm I doubt would have much of an effect. Similar to why I suggested the parasitics mentioned would not have much of an effect. The parts used are all fairly large compared to any parasitics.So what breadboard do you recommend that would prevent me from building this circuit and getting the correct waveforms on a scope? It sounds like you have the insider track. My breadboards are all very old, wore out and were cheap at the time. Still, as shown, they are fine for this circuit. So I need something on a whole new level of crap.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 06:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 09, 2025, 06:43:30 pmTrue, but the question is about tooki's definition of contact resistance, and how to measure that.This is a chaotic circuit, so it can be extremely sensitive to starting and operating/"continuing" conditions.QuoteYou are asking me to keep track of brands of crap components?! Get real!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 07:01:18 pm
content: yes in a functional laboratory its expected that you have a spec on the 100 ohm 1/4 watt resistor. It's like pipes and if you take some corroded off spec crap you found in the trash and put it into your machine it will make a problemIMO that trying to make some credit/worth system for parts means you are going too fast and doing too much, all of them are important to making your thing circuit properly. Physics never aligns with whatever time/money/expense project decisions you make.. it just does not. its like getting trashed on something because the assumption was made that its obvious or easy

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 07:28:32 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 09, 2025, 06:52:00 pmQuoteCorrect, if you are going to spend 10 years going over the evils of breadboards, I would expect you to also have some solid data! It's the old arm chair hobbyist.Looking at my old breadboards, I didn't find any joint over an ohm. No where near what I would expect to cause any problems with this circuit.QuoteWhile that's been posted a few times and mentioned throughout the website I linked. Funny thing, I had not experienced this extreme sensitivity. I turn it on, it runs. Bag on the table, it runs. I'm sure if I threw it against the floor it would have a problem but just sitting on the desk, I had no problems with my wore out breadboard.I really need something much much worse than what I have.That same site warned about using ceramics.QuoteQuoteI don't know what "sharper" or "accurate" means in this context. I saw no difference between the film and ceramic disks.QuoteThis is obviously dated. I demonstrated the signals using a digital scope. My scope is crap for measuring X-Y compared with some of the modern ones.So, I am breadboarding with ceramic disks and displaying on a vintage digital scope. Doing everything wrong and still manage to get what appears to be a correct waveform.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2025, 09:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 09, 2025, 07:28:32 pmYou persist with strawman arguments, based on short phrases removed from the context in which they were written.Not impressive. Not worth refuting.QuoteEnglish 101: there is a significant difference between "can" and "will" or "must". FFI consult any dictionary.For brevity I've omitted many quotes (sharpness, ceramic capacitors, scopes) which you incorrectly attribute to me. Such misattribution is either disreputable or extremely careless.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 06:15:13 am
content: Strawman arguments? I am simply asking you to provide me with a link to a breadboard that I could purchase that is as bad as you often claim.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 09:56:03 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 10, 2025, 06:15:13 amWhy don't youhelpbeginners using your superior expertise with solderless breadboards, by stating which product they should use to avoid the problems?

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 11:22:21 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 10, 2025, 09:56:03 amBecause it is easier to throw the rocks rather than to use them to make a shelter?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 11:30:42 am
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 10, 2025, 11:22:21 amJust so.Maybe I ought to respond to joeqsmith's silly unhelpful question with a silly unhelpful answer along the lines of...Use only the PreLovedCarp brand, available from Tggzzz Import and Export Enterprises. Guaranteed to be better that those from LoftAndGarage brand, HackSpace brand, RandomReject brand, LeftoverRecycledMetal brand, SeaAir brand, Patinated brand, GoneTomorrow brand, and many others.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 01:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 10, 2025, 09:56:03 amI have never ran into a breadboard that was problematic as you claim. I've also posted about us making some complex circuits using 3M but also how we used them in out college classes without problems.While this thread is not in the beginners area, I mentioned the contact resistance was well below 1% of the lowest component used, and how any parasitics were also negligible compared with them. I would assume even beginners have the basic understanding of ohms law.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 04:20:23 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 10, 2025, 01:25:46 pmSo, why don't youhelpby stating the solderless breadboard brands thataren'tproblematical?What's the problem with that? Ordoyou just want to "throw rocks"?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 04:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 10, 2025, 04:20:23 pmMaybe attend AA?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 04:23:39 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 10, 2025, 04:22:26 pmQ.E.D., I believe.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 04:30:52 pm
content: Similar behaviors is all.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 08:10:55 pm
content: they can be very bad buts its usually a number of factors like severe damage from mangled wire ends, oversized components, and then using with undersized components. It's hard to damage it so it does not work with a.. regular lead part, but its easy to damage it so it does not work with a ill suited partalso residue from paper component tape, alot of people do not clean it with alcohol

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 08:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 10, 2025, 08:10:55 pmTaking actions to avoid those practical effects (and others) reduces the supposed ease and speed of using solderless breadboards.Soldering isn't slower, and is more reliable.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 08:59:19 pm
content: QuoteT'is when you want to change something or tear down your test circuit and use a few of the parts on your next brainwave

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 09:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 10, 2025, 08:59:19 pmT'isn'tJust a big sweep of the poker, and you're done

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2025, 11:38:40 pm
content: I've used many solderless breadboards over the years - and have noticed there is a definate negative correlation between cost and "causes headaches".By "headaches" I mean:- Struggling to insert component leads, even "thinner" leads like TH LEDs and 0.125W resistors- Loose connections with the above - that is both after much use (expected when you plug in things like square pin headers)orfrom new.- Odd connections ranging from several to several hundreds of ohms, despite what appears to be a solid grip connection. I can only assume thats due to oxidised connections.Can't comment on capacitance of inductance because I rarely breadboard stuff that is sensitive to the C/L in that range. = I don't care.This is mostly fairly recent - past 10 years, and when buying generic breadboards, with no branding, and odd spacing. Most of these were added to orders just "because" - I didn't expect them to be great, but they are often handy for very knocking up quick and dirty circuits for testing LED's, 555 stuff, DC opamp, audio/low frequency stuff. We're talking <£3 per breadboard. Some were really unusuable - couldn't even get reisstors in most holes without bending leads and swearing.But I have recently got a few from CPC/Farnell (again to make up the order to get free shipping..) that were only slighty more expensive but substantially better. £7 for large 980. These actually had a brand name - I'll dig out the part number later if I can). Held jumpers, different sized resistors and all IC pins well.So "cheap" and "good" and "bad" are all vague relative terms, and given that ebay/amazon/aliexpress and various cheaper electronics outlets are flooded with cheap generic boards, it can be hard to pin down an actual model number, because, well, there aren't any for these breadboards. Instead I guess its easier to make a list of known "good" boards and stick to them.All this doesn't change the fact they obviously have shortcomings. I don't think anyone in this thread is claming that arereliablefor higher frequency, or higher current stuff, but this isn't their purpose. And frankly, I don't think any shielding back plate, or higher "quality" beyond something that makes adequate connections will improve matters much - so I don't see the value in overly expensive breadboards - except perhaps to guarantee quality. Not to mention that smart breadboard with LEDs *shudders*.Often with these threads people leave and you just end up with two camps - one points to the cheapest nastiest productss and say how awful they can be, others point to the expensive branded things and say they can be high quality. Of course the reality is somewhere in the middle. The modern race-to-the-bottom means that ultra-cheap products are everywhere, ones that barely meet spec, and just aren't fit for purpose - tends to warp peoples perspective.I will admit I am using them less and less now. Often going straight to a beta PCB - with redundant pads for tickering.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 08:33:32 am
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on September 10, 2025, 11:38:40 pmThank you for a thoughtful post, especially where you note the ground plane cargo-cult engineering and LED gilded liliesAs you note, the problem is knowing what will be satisfactorybeforepurchasing.There are commercial products that are half-way towards pukka PCBs, and which can be very practical for prototyping. FFI and other products, see the end ofhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/Uncommitted ground plane: the holes are not plated, so you connect to the backplane where convenient.No ground plane, but thoughtful set of pads and how they could be used

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 05:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 11, 2025, 08:33:32 amI'm not sure if my feelings towards those are down to my age, or experience - the older we get the more "we don't need that crap!" attitude we get. But yeah, the LEDs to show where connections should go it just... novelty.Quote from: tggzzz on September 11, 2025, 08:33:32 amThis goes for many many things, especially over the past 15-20 years.. tools, guitars, commercial electronics etc.. And as I alluded to, it keeps arguments going back and forth because of lack of consistency: One can point to a really bad example, and someone lucky enough to get a "good" example of the same product can argue that they are OK, neither realising that its the quality control that takes a huge hit when costs are cut, so both parties can be right.This is true on my latest venture into "cheap criming tools" - many of them are actually pretty good! But you have no real confidence in whether or not you'll get a good one because the machining is so inconsistent. I ended up spending £60 really out of curiosity, and I've ended up with three pretty decent tools, and two paperweights.Quote from: tggzzz on September 11, 2025, 08:33:32 amCan't see the images, but that could jsut be me. I have a few of those boards at the bottom of that page from ebay! Only used a couple, and its surprising how much one uses those extra grounds.As cyncial as I am, I still think we're really in the golden era of electronics prototyping: SMD adapers, all manner of generic dev boards, fast high quality PCB prototypes, open source software/firmware, Arduino - as much as some hate, have been a boon.And all of this is the cheapest it has ever been.. I think the price we pay is that there is also a lot of "noise" or crap products that haven't fallen out of use yet. Inertia is still pretty bad - wire wrapping, and legacy projects that have modern "makers" trying to find a PIC16F84 to copy an internet project from 1998.And if I try to take a positive spin on things: Professionals, people who make money with their time, probably won't be using any prototyping techniques that can cause issues that require serious debugging - so it is mostly newbies and students scratching their heads over a misbehaving ultra cheap breadboard. Maybe this is a good thing? Debugging is a huge part of learning, and hopefully these students will not only learn how to spot issues, find outwhythey have the problems they do, and correct them. But also realise that there are "better" ways of prototyping that works for them, and saves time.The downside is, it might put off beginners if they get too frustrated. That has happened to me in my teens when I would battle with "twisting wires" together, lack of flux in solder wire, and yes - dodgy breadboards. I'm not sure I think we should all go trhough these "growing pains", but I'm pretty sure it helped.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2025, 07:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on September 11, 2025, 05:54:24 pmVictor Meldrew is a role modelThose LEDs make me think of the workers inQuoteI hope it is just you; I have a moderately heavily defended browser, and I can see them both here and at Wordpress. The latter ought to be pretty bog standard. Maybe a caching or DDoS amelioration mechanism?QuoteWhen I "returned" after 25 years, I was both delighted and horrified at how little had changed. Delighted: easy to pick things up again. Horrified: still 8-bit micros and C, single-stepping using ICE/JTAG...The major changes since 1980 were nanopower and the stunning ADC/DAC advances; everything being smaller, cheaper, fasterisn'ta major change.QuoteAs I taught my daughter, "let's makenewmistakes". Let's stand on the shoulder of people who created tools that work, and stamp on the toes of people who created tools that areunnecessarilyflawed.I've seen beginners discouraged by solderless breadboards. They have enough on their plate understanding the circuit concepts and tools. It is fine to hone their debugging techniques on those problems, but dispiriting (to them) having to figure out unrelated crap. Completely valueless, unless you think "I never want to use a solderless breadboard again" is a good lesson