Wild Heerbrugg M7A Microscope - any experience - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MatteoX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2020, 05:29:15 pm
content: I have an opportunity to buy Wild Heerbrugg M7A microscope at (what I think) is reasonable price. I will be able to see it in 10 days but by looking at the pictures and per discussion with the owner it seems to be in decent condition - only few minor scratches on the body. It has (what I believe are) standard eyepieces 10x/21mm but the stand is not Wild's - it looks like standard StereoZoom 4 stand with boom.I know this brand is generally highly ranked. I was trying to find more information about this particular model but I only found a users manual and some general information about the company and their products. There is much more information and discussions available for their other models like M5 and M8. I believe that eyepieces do not have high relief but I could not find that information (there is no eyeglasses symbol).Does anyone have experience with M7A? I would like to find the service manual, if it exists at all. Any other related documents would be helpful too.Another potential issue is Wild Heerbrugg accessories are quite expensive on ebay (if they even fit on M7A - User's manual does not list part numbers for the accessories but I assume they should be interchangeable among some of their products). If I get the microscope, I would like to get at least a 0.5x lens. It seems that the objective diameter is 52 mm (can sb confirm this), so I might be able to get some alternates.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2020, 06:45:40 pm
content: I have a Wild M7A that was retired from three decades of inspecting chip on board wire bonds for an automotive electronics supplier. Other than a couple fogged ocular head prisms, probably from someone using the wrong grease, it needed no other service and was still in its original alignment.Wild/Leica made the M7/M7A models for 21 years, and continued making the M7A even after introducing the later M3x models that should have superceded it. It was and still is a nice design with a well-corrected, four element achromatic objective (the M3 has three elments; the M8 has five).The earlier Wild 10/21 oculars are a low eyepoint design; the later 10/21B are high eyepoint for eyeglass wearers. High eyepoint oculars from other manufacturers will also work – just make sure they are adjustable because Wild put the intermediate image further in from the flange than almost everyone else. I have an adjustable pair from Olympus and another from Zeiss, both of which are parfocal if you adjust them to their limits.Wild accessories can be expensive if you are in a hurry. You can use many accessories from Motic for their K700 microscope. It is based on the M7 they tried to make for Wild ca. 25 years ago, but were then not quite able to. I think an 0.5X lens was around $100 the last time I checked, It clamps to the 58mm diameter accessory ring that spins on to the end of the M7A's objective. I would ask if the microscope still has its ring as some do not.I need to test a microscope camera. I can take and post some images out of my M7A if there is something you are interested in seeing.

author: MatteoX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2020, 07:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on December 03, 2020, 06:45:40 pmjfiresto, thanks for the information.It does have a ring at the bottom of the objective. It is a simple ring with no notch in the middle to clamp stuff. The ring has only inner thread to screw it on the objective. It does not have any additional thread on inside or outside to screw in other adapters. I guess I can hang ring light on top of it. The owner told me that the outer diameter of the objective tube is 52 mm. When you get a chance could you check diameter of the objective tube. I saw people selling 52mm 0.5x Barlow lens for cheap (< $20). They are, of course, no name brand but if they fit that could serve, at least in the beginning. And it will protect objective from smoke during soldering.Objective is marked 10x/21. Is "B" marked on high relief objectives? If I buy the microscope I will keep the existing objectives. Later I might upgrade to something else. Do you know model no. of the objectives you are using?By any chance, do you have service manual or any other maintenance information? I expect I will need to open it for some cleaning.And one last question, what is your personal opinion of this microscope?

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 10:44:29 am
content: Quote from: MatteoX on December 03, 2020, 07:47:37 pmThe objective has a 52/1 mm thread: note the unusual pitch.QuoteYes, and they are also marked with little eyeglass symbols. Have you seenthis page, in French, with a chart and pictures of various compatible oculars?QuoteDid you mean to write oculars?QuoteThe closest I have come is a parts catalog.QuoteIt is a very good model that for my purposes improved on both its predecessors and successors. It has a simpler objective than the (fully) plan, 6-50X Wild M8, and only a 6-31X magnification range, but the M7A makes the most of what it has got – or even possible with its classic, spherical optics.

author: MatteoX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 05:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on December 04, 2020, 10:44:29 amGood to know. So that means I have to look for their specific Barlow. On ebay people just list diameter but they don't know thread pitch.QuoteQuoteNo eyeglass symbols on mine. That confirms my suspicion that these are not high eye relief.No, I have not seen that web site yet. Is seems it has lot of useful information. He is talking about M3. Do you know if M3/M5/M8 use compatible eyepieces and optional lensesQuoteQuoteYes, oculars of course.QuoteCould you post parts catalog. I have a poor copy of the users manual but, strangely, it does not list any accessories. It just has table that shows magnification/field for the various combinations of oculars and Barlow lenses but it does not show their part numbersHow do you shot photos? It seems it has special phototube adapter.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2020, 06:07:21 pm
content: Quote from: MatteoX on December 04, 2020, 05:48:10 pmMany of the parts are interchangeable among the M3/M3x, M7/M7x, M8 and M10 microscopes, and the subsequent Leica M-series models. The M5 is the odd man out.QuoteWith a black photo tube you insert between the binocular head and the zoom body. It has prisms or beam splitters, that depending on the model, send either 100% to an eyepiece or the camera, and 100% to the other eyepiece, or 50% to both eyepieces and the camera simultaneously.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 02:18:35 pm
content: Here are a couple images produce by a Wild M7A, if you are still considering one, both taken with a 16 megapixel micro four thirds camera, with the microscope phototube apertures wide open. First, a twenty year old disk drive PCB at minimum, 6X magnification:(Click an image to expand it.) Then a 2716-class Soviet EPROM at maximum, 31X magnification:The bowed die edges and smudging are from the sample, not the microscope. The view through the eyepieces is better.

author: MatteoX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 05:48:27 am
content: Nice pictures jfiresto!I will see the microscope this weekend and if it seems to be in OK condition I'll buy it.I am bit worried about the price of the accessories - even simple 0.5x Barlow is about $150 on the ebay. That is about 2/3 price of the microscope.I was thinking I'll be able to start taking pictures with some simple phone adapter attached to the ocular tube. From the pictures it seems that the original oculars do not have uniform diameter, one part is wider (39mm ?) and the other one is narrower (26mm) One ocular at the end has again wider rounded part at the eye side (I don't know if it is possible to remove that). Narrower part is not very long, I don't think I'll be able to attach phone adapter on that.Photo tubes are very nice but prohibitively expensive.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 09:40:42 am
content: Quote from: MatteoX on December 08, 2020, 05:48:27 amThanks! I am still pleasantly surprised at the images out of the thing. Notice how the first photo is sharp all the way to the edges and corners without stopping down. That is not easy at low magnifications.QuoteThe knurling is the diopter adjustment to correct for an uncorrected eye and for focusing on a reticule if the ocular has one. I suspect a bigger issue is that you will probably not be able to get the camera close enough to get a reasonably sized image. I had much more success with high eyepoint oculars – which you will likely want to have anywayHappy microscope hunting!EDIT: I should add that both images were produced by a grizzled objective that looks like this:Do not let a little of that faze you. Despite the nicks and scratches, there is still a lot of good optical glass to resolve an image. You can see from the coating that the original owner was careful cleaning it.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 01:05:44 pm
content: Out of curiosity, what color is the M7A?

author: MatteoX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 03:03:28 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on December 08, 2020, 09:40:42 amYes, I have already started looking for high relief oculars. I am still trying to sort out what ocular models are compatible with this scope. Do you have, by any chance, any compatible part numbers?

author: MatteoX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 03:13:31 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on December 08, 2020, 01:05:44 pmWhite. Why are you asking?I think it is little bit newer, because letter W in the logo is wider. I found somewhere that at one point they redesigned logo.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 08:28:45 am
content: Quote from: MatteoX on December 09, 2020, 03:03:28 amThe Le Naturaliste page I suggested above lists a tolerable fewThe adjustable Zeiss W-PL10X/23 is also good, as are its even wider field siblings (up to 26.5mm), but the Zeiss 30mm stereo microscope eyepieces have been discovered by the stargazers and are in demand. You need to be a little careful with old Zeiss optics as they can delaminate internally and chip around the edges.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2020, 08:35:33 am
content: Quote from: MatteoX on December 09, 2020, 03:13:31 amWhite is good. The early production, tan/yellowish model has some issues to watch out for. I had one for about a week, but returned it because it had one too many.

author: stephenR
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 01:27:40 am
content: Sory to revive this old thread.I just picked up what I think is a Wild Heerbrugg M7A Microscope for very cheap on marketplace (see pictures). I say I think because other than the brand (wild...) there are no model number visible.My plan is to use it to do SMD soldering. However the unit doesn't have a stand and its eyepieces are 15x/17 which I think is a bit too powerful.I was wondering if @MatteoX you were satisfied with the M7A and/or if it was worth to invest in a stand and a new pair of 5x eyepieces?Thank you

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 03:08:43 pm
content: Yes, that is a Wild M7A mounted in someone else's carrier and focus rack. The original carrier+rack sits somewhat lower at the waist and does not cover the circular, exposure-time slide rule.The microscope appears to have a pair of original, 15X oculars for people who do not wear glasses. I think you would find a pair of later, high eyepoint 10X/22 or 10X/23 oculars would be a big improvement, even if you do not wear glasses. You can get a quite reasonable pair out of China for around $40–60. Just make sure they are adjustable as Wild put the intermediate images more deeply into the ocular tubes than just about everyone else. A pair of 5X oculars will win you little more field of view as the microscope vignettes somewhere beyond ...X/26.5mm.I see the microscope has its black accessory ring that spins on to the end of the objective. You will need that to add an 0.3X to 2.0X auxiliary objective.

author: stephenR
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:14:09 pm
content: Wow thank you @jfiresto for that fast and instructive answer.From what I understand this brand & model seems to be a good to very good unit?I wasn't sure if I was ripped-off for a defective unit when I bought it, but I got it for so cheap (less than 100$) that it was worth the risk . Now that I see that it's in perfect working conditions and that these units are going for around 1000US$, it is the deal of the year!I have looked around to find auxiliary lens 0.3 or 0.5 but the originals seems pretty rare. Do you know if there are adapters that would allow to fit more common after market lenses. Unfortunately the attachment mechanism looks quite unique.I think I will follow your advice and look for a pair of 10x eyepieces instead. In the meantime, when set it at minimum magnification 0.6x combined with the 15x eyepieces the resulting 9x is ok to start SMD soldering.Finally, I found the scanned pages (20) of original manufacturer's user manual for the M7A/M7S. If anyone is interested let me know, the zip file is relatively small at 5Mb.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 10:51:12 am
content: Quote from: stephenR on March 23, 2021, 06:14:09 pmYou might pay a thousand dollars for a refurbished microscope from a used microscope dealer, but I think you did just fine. I expect you will get more than you paid for the microscope should you ever decide to sell it. Once you have had a chance to use it, I bet you won't.QuoteI tried a couple 48mm thread, 0.5X auxiliary lenses meant for a Meiji and a Olympus microscope, but they were not very satisfactory in front of the M7A's much bigger objective.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 10:04:20 am
content: [I am bumping this old thread, in case someone else finds it, including the other posters who have been away from the forum for some months.]I now have Motic's copy, part number 1202A, of the Wild M3/M7A/M7S 0.5X auxiliary objective I mentioned earlier. It looks good so far andwas $106.05 with free shipping within the U.S.from tequipment.net, after applying the EEVblog discount.

author: zkrx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2021, 07:04:00 pm
content: Hi everyone and hi jfiresto,I discovered this thread several months ago. I acquired an M7A (I think) approx. 2 years ago. It changed my life wrt SMD work. I've also just found a simple phototube adapter on the local used market for cheap.I'd like to attach a Nikon DSLR to it. jfiresto, your pictures look really good! Is your phototube splitter an original Wild? These look quite hard to find nowadays. Also, how did you fix your camera to the tube?And btw, thanks for the heads up regarding the Barlow lens! I was looking for an affordable option.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2021, 02:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: zkrx on September 07, 2021, 07:04:00 pmYou have the best bits from two different microscopes: a top half with the binocular tubes from an M3 or older M7/M7A, and a bottom half with the objective, zoom and focusing mechanisms, from a later M7A. The tubes' diopter adjustments support a much wider choice of oculars. They would be one of the first things I would upgrade if you have not already.The M3 monocular tube could be the oldest of all and was typically used to create a photo- and/or video-only microscope. What is its internal tube diameter? That will suggest what you will need for intermediate optics. The phototubes I am familiar with have either a 38mm I.D. or a trifle more than 30mm I.D.QuoteWhat model Nikon? A DSLR can be a little tricky to add because of its long path from flange to sensor. My brother convinced me to use a mirror-less, micro four thirds camera. Its flange focal distance is short enough that a later Wild photo tube can project directly onto the sensor without a relay lens.For the above pictures, I used a Wild 376788 photo tube, an optic-less D10NLC 38mm to c-mount adapter, a c-mount to µ4/3rds adapter and an Olympus E-PL7.QuoteYou are welcome. Keep in mind that the lens is a simple achromat, like the Wild/Leica original it copies, which softens the image approaching the edges. I am looking at adding an 0.4X plan-achromat meant for a Wild M8. It promises to keep things flat and sharp everywhere. I hope to get some time on a metal lathe to make a supporting adapter.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 10:20:52 am
content: Just a quick follow up about eyepieces for the M7A (or other Wild stereo microscopes). As I wrote earlier, you want them to be adjustable if they were not specifically for Wild or later Leica M-series microscopes. The intermediate image in an M7/M7A is a few millimeters deeper into the eyepiece tubes than the common 10mm.Finding third party eyepieces that are parfocal can be a bit hit and miss. Not only should be they be adjustable, they should be adjustable over a fairly wide range. The last pair of inexpensive 10X/22 eyepieces I bought did not adjust far enough. Next year, I will try some that copy an old Zeiss design and are marked WF10X/23.The Wild M7A has enough resolution to support 20X eyepieces without "empty magnification". This let you effectively double its maximum zoom, from 31X to 62X, by simply swapping 20X eyepieces for 10X – when you need a quick, closer look.(Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it!)

author: zkrx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 01:47:00 pm
content: Hey jfiresto,Sorry for the 3-month delay, I rotate between many projects and some of them stay on the back burner for longer that I'd like... This and the fact that my optics knowledge is near zero, so most of the technical terms are like Chinese to me. But I have a long Xmas holidays ahead, so I should find some time to get myself up to speed. Anyways.First of all, let me post this picture for my personal reference (or for any noob like me):QuoteI measure an internal diameter of precisely 30mm on this tube.QuoteI have a Nikon D7200.QuoteThis probably sounds trivial, but this is actually good to know. I attached pictures of my eyepieces at the end of this post for people's reference.My brother-in-law saved a 3D printer from the junkyard. It took me some time to repair but now it is perfectly functional. I'd like to print an adapter for my Nikon, but I need to dig into this deeper. Especially about the "flange focal distance" bit you mentioned. Anyway, here are semi-random links that I saved a few months ago, but I've yet to give them more thought:-https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php?topic=33015.0(Nikon - Wild adaptation with some links to thingiverse)-https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:131769-https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:237376-https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4369162-https://www.microbehunter.com/microscopy-forum/viewtopic.php?t=7135(talks about tube adaptation stuff)-http://www.lenaturaliste.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=22658(interesting Wild derivation tube)Merry Christmas to all of you.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 03:45:29 pm
content: This is funny. Normally, people get annoyed if you bump an old thread, but that has not happened yet.If your 30mm photo tube is like the one I have, you can stick a standard eyepiece in the tube and share the view with another observer. Does the photo tube have a part number I might be able to look up?The eyepiece takes the intermediate image that is perhaps 15mm inside the tube and reprojects it above the eyepiece to your eyeball. You will need a relay lens like that to re-project the image all the way to your DSLR's sensor. You could try a "high eyepoint" eyepiece and do this "afocally". You find a suitable lens for the DSLR, focus it on the image that is above the eyepiece and have the camera take the place of a human eyeball. I write "suitable" because my strong impression is that people who roll their own often discover a good combination through a fair bit of trial and error. Afocal projection is the same that people use when they take pictures by holding a mobile phone over an eye piece. That will give you an idea about the projected image and the lens you will need.You can get adapters where someone has done all that work for you, but the good ones from, for example, promicron or lmscope, tend to be pricey. That convinced me to first try "direct projection". Instead of changing the microscope's image to match the camera, you choose a camera and a way to mount it to match the image out of the microscope. You can do this pretty quickly and cheaply with a 38mm photo tube, if you do not need live video. I spent a few hours and less than 90 euros for my first set up, including a 12 megapixel, µ4/3rds camera with a one year, camera store guarantee. I was going to try direct projection with a 30mm photo tube, by decapitating the tube, but found a 38mm one before I could do something rash.

author: zkrx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 04:36:43 pm
content: I don't know, the thread's not that old and we're still on topic which is sharing m7a experience. Besides, information on that brand is quite rare.There's no part number on that tube, someone wrote "Phototubus für M3" with a marker on it. You'll find attached all the pictures from the auction.I found this document that mentions this tube on pages 2 and 4:http://www.nyms.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Newsletter-2015-10-NYMS-Extended-email.pdfAccording to some more googling, part number would be "Photo Tube A 256528". I found this thread where someone wants to do the same:https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41838And this Wild document with some diagrams, there's probably something of interest in there:http://www.science-info.net/docs/wild/M5-10m.pdfYou can find a diagram with 256528 on page 19. There's a part 184947 which goes on top of the tube called "Camera clamping ring diam. 33mm":

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 05:19:54 pm
content: Wild describes that as aPhototube A for a monocular camera assembly: to take pictures or movies, or to view in 2-D on a video monitor or screen. (It creates what is often called a "video microscope".) That would not work for me, because I also need to observe and work on things in 3-D and would be constantly removing and installing the photo tube and the stereo viewing head.I am guessing you might want aPhototube HUorHV:to create a three-tube microscope that lets you easily observe in stereoandtake pictures and/or movies. The HU lets do either one or the other, with a quick flip of a switch; the HV lets you observe in 3-D and document/present in 2-D, simultaneously. Is either of those also a requirement for you?

author: zkrx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 07:33:09 pm
content: Of course having a HU or HV would be awesome, but finding them isn't easy, nor would it be cheap. I don't see myself taking high resolution pictures very often, so changing the head/tube assembly isn't a big deal. I could make a quick adapter for my phone for when I want to take a quick "low-res" picture.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2021, 08:20:37 pm
content: I was just making sure. Sometimes people are not aware of their requirements – for example, because the area is new to them and they have not tried the different possibilities. They then spend some time setting up a photo system and then realize it fall shorts of what they need. Envisioning the desired solution before buying and building can make everyone happier.I priced lmscope's off-the-shelfpackage for your camera: over $1500 plus shipping and VAT. You could buy a used mirrorless camera, a 38mm photo tube and optic-less adapters for less than half that.I have next to no afocal system experience but have you seenthis possibility?

author: zkrx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 08:25:12 pm
content: I saw that you deleted your post about the Motic SLR adapter for the K700, is it because you think that it's not compatible after all? I was also looking to get the Motic 0.3 or 0.5 barlow but couldn't find an EU dealer (the 1202A is listed at 103€ on moticeurope.com but no way to order?https://moticeurope.com/en/1202a-05x-achromatic-objective-wd148mm.html). I might try to contact them directly.Interesting article about the afocal adapter, I might experiment that route. I will play with my 30mm phototube first, hit its limitations and learn a few things about optical systems in the process.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 08:58:24 pm
content: Yes, I deleted the post because I realized you have an APS-C camera which needs something like a 1.6X relay lens. The Motic K-series photo adapters show their age and are either 2X for full frame T-mount DSLRs, or 1X for 1"-sensor c-mount video cameras – or smaller sensor, c-mount cameras that shrink the 1" image with their own reduction lenses. I feel like I am getting out over my skis and did not want to misdirect you. I must confess that I never did get a relay lens system working properly. I have also noticed that some who have, have lately been doing to direct projection into mirrorless cameras.My impression is that is hard to find a good, inexpensive 1.6X relay lens for an APS-C DSLR and that has encouraged the afocal approach presented in the microscopy-uk review (and direct projection into mirrorless cameras).EDIT:Here is the linkto the Motic distributor that has affiliates worldwide. How much would tequipment.net charge to ship an 0.3X or 0.5X auxiliary lens to Iceland?

author: zkrx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 09:41:15 pm
content: I understand. So I actually don't live in Iceland, but tequipment.net charges 90$ to ship this to my country (EU). As a backup plan, I have a friend who regularly goes to the US that could retrieve this for me.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 06:57:44 am
content: It is not that I could not put together a working relay lens system, it is that I personally found rethinking my approach and trying a direct projection solution was so much quicker and easier. The biggest obstacle, which only distracted me for perhaps a couple hours, was to not enable the anti-shock shutter on the first camera I tried - and I could have avoided that if I had read the manual, or done the retrospectively obvious: search it for the word "microscope".I have most of the parts to replicate Wild's full frame system and hope to some day to satisfy my curiosity.