KeysightCare; you now need a paid subscription to ask simple questions? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2021, 04:34:58 am
content: Hi all,I sent an email to Keysight about an omission in the specifications for the U2741A (it says that it supports measuring temperature from a 5k thermistor, but doesn't state the beta value for the thermistor). This is what I got in reply:QuoteThey have offered to solve my problem for free once (which is actually their problem?) so that I can "experience the KeysightCare value", but this is a bit of a surprise for me. Does anyone have any experience with this program? Does this mean I need to pay money for a subscription to report firmware bugs, mistakes in manuals, or ask if certain measurements are supported, etc to Keysight now ? If so, I'm a bit bummed out that I have any Keysight equipment... this feels like a bit of a bait-and-switch. Also "pre-sales support...will always be available" makes me feel like they will be happy to sell you the product and then tell you to take a hike afterwards if anything goes wrong.I had a look at their forum, but it seems like actual Keysight staff aren't active on there, so there wouldn't be anyone who could answer a question like the one I have which needs some form of inside knowledge.Posting this message as both a warning to people who own or are looking at Keysight/Agilent/HP equipment (even the old stuff), and to hear if anyone has any experiences around this program.Thanks,Jeremy

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2021, 11:02:37 am
content: To answer your thermistor question, I am pretty sure Keysight only offer one 5k thermistor product as standard, the E2308A. That is listed in the U2741A datasheet as an optional accessory.The only place I could find the beta specification when I went looking at some point in the past was in the 3446xA datasheets, which says "5 kΩ thermistor β= 3891; YSI 44007 or equivalent". That datasheet specifies two thermistors as optional accessories - the 34308A kit, or the E2308A. The 34308A kit has five 10k thermistors mostly intended for the 34970A, so not particularly relevant here. Neither the E2308A or 34308A datsheets give this particular specification.Also discussed in this post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/hp-compatible-5kohm-thermistor-temperature-probe-home-made/

author: perdrix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2021, 12:53:50 pm
content: Looks like Keysight are on the downward spiral to death. First they let the German legal team persuade them that they shouldn't sell to or support real people (at least in Europe/UK), just corporate entities. Now the accountants have come up with the wheeze of "we only provide support if you pay". My quess is that before too long their *only* customers will be Fortune 100, and government institutions.For sure and for certain, I won't be buying anything new from them now, nor will I be recommending them to anyone.I may register a company so I can get my 3458A calibrated, but that's not yet decided.David

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 03:20:45 am
content: Quote from: jeremy on October 05, 2021, 04:34:58 amUS$ 78.22 for 2 degrees precision? better to buy from aliexpress.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 05:24:04 am
content: This Keysight not working with individuals thing is starting to go a bit too far now.Alright i understand that you might not sell all the spare parts to just anyone (even tho they used to do that, so why go back?) but not even answering a question about a datasheet spec clarification really shows a new level of "go fuck yourself" to the costumer.They should realize that a lot of electronics hobbyists also work at engineering jobs where they might nag there boss for a shiny new piece of equipment here and there. If they act like this makes me tempted to recommend the rivaling test equipment brands. How do i know that they won't hit me in the face with the same KeysightCare bullshit the next time i need help with there equipment at my job. Pretty sure the company i work at does not have such an account, and if we do i have no idea who i would ask for the username and password.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 09:38:46 am
content: Quote from: Berni on October 19, 2021, 05:24:04 amPerhaps this is related to the EU stuff? I am not familiar with European consumer law, but perhaps charging for some form of very basic support is not allowed ? If so, this change would require them to not roll their new program out if they sold to consumers. And keysight badly wants to increase recurring revenue (a la silicon valley) as it looks good for shareholders:Code:"It's an exciting time at Keysight as we leverage the strength of our foundation, bring breakthrough technologies to market and add software-centric solutions to address customer needs, while increasing our recurring revenue.From:https://www.keysight.com/au/en/about/newsroom/news-releases/2020/keysight-technologies-hosts-2020-investor-day.html

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 09:58:21 am
content: I had a further look at this, and have found some more alarming things here:https://www.keysight.com/au/en/assets/3121-1393/data-sheets/KeysightCare-Technical-Support.pdfQuote(see attached image for a comparison matrix showing you what you don't get anymore without an agreement)And for those hoping that you could get KeysightCare for free:https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200909005764/en/Keysight-Technologies-Bolsters-Technical-Support-Services-in-Response-to-Growing-Customer-Demand-for-Test-and-Measurement-ExpertiseQuoteMore on strategy from the annual report:https://s22.q4cdn.com/444849635/files/doc_financials/2020/2020-Keysight-Annual-Report.pdfQuote

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 09:12:16 pm
content: Lol that's hilarious, like "No thank you for buying from us, go fuck yourself from now on!"Perfect way to ruin a company, but HPAK is in constant decline since the 1990s, just adds a few more nails for the coffin, until the Chinese take over basic test gear and Keysight falls back to research and lab/calibration/Josephson effect references/quantum computing stuff, similar to what happened to IBM.Once the research is done, game over....

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 09:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: MadTux on October 19, 2021, 09:12:16 pmThat is not decline in their eyes, thatistheiractualcorporate strategy...That is exactly what they presented to shareholders...Western companies lately want to produce only high ROI products and give services, because by economists, that is considered most advanced type of industry.Which leaves large sectors of industry and human lives uncovered and left to someone else to provide.What is hilarious is that people are surprised by it, and that has been happening for 50+ years. Many of the Fluke most innovative products came from EU lab in Netherlands that was Philips instrument division that got merged with Fluke. Yokogawa, Hioki, Sony manufactured instruments for likes of HP, Tek and LeCroy since ages. Later it moved to China, where entry level instruments were made, Rigol for Keysight (love lost), Siglent for LeCroy... etc etc. Keysight manufactures all bench instruments in Malasia..Many products are USA products only by headquarters, for many many years.. Same in EU.But until now, they kept pretending they are full service T&M company with full range of equipment and services.Like IBM, they might even spinoff low end spectrum. To make parallel to IBM, they can spinoff Infiniivision from scope series to a brand name: Infiniivision scopes. By "random name here you never heard before" company.Like my desktop and laptop that have ThinkPad and ThinkCentre on them and all IBM design looks and fell, but there is nowhere to see Lenovo. And then after few years Lenovo appeared slowly... But still ThinkThisAndThat....

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 10:40:24 pm
content: This all seems to be following the classic malaise of a publicly listed company from the late 20th century/early 21st century. You obsess over the things that sound good to accountants, MBAs and the stock market and quietly forget to listen to your customers; then one day you turn around and find that you don't have customers and are just part of an on-going exercise in finance capitalism that talks all the time about delivering shareholder value while actually delivering nothing of any value to anyone else.I've seen this happen to several companies, of all sizes, and while they may stagger on for possibly a long time (e.g. IBM) they are essentially zombies from the moment they let the MBAs and financiers take over. Forming your strategies around what sounds good to 'the markets' rather than around what your customers care about is exactly the wrong thing to do. Becoming a company that exists for the core reason of just being a business for business sake, rather than one that exists to service a genuine need for products or services, is frankly pointless, a waste of time and energy. Once the financiers have bled all the capital and taxes advantages out of the husk left behind it'll just be discarded.If you ever find yourself confronting a company that talks all the time about shareholders and not about customers - run away, don't buy from them, don't work for them, don't do anything that would tie your fate to theirs.I give it five years before the Siglents and their kin eat Keysight's basic product market and start nibbling at the high end as well (I've got a 350 MHz,8Gsps, 4 channel scope that cost only a little over £1000 from Rigol that might be a bit rough around the edges, but indicates that they are setting their sights higher and higher). Once the Chinese guys make their product offerings a little more refined and back them up with capable service then there's going to be no reason to look at the Keysights of this world for most of us. Keysight will keep trumpeting their service portfolio to 'the markets' while haemorrhaging actual engineering talent left, right and centre.

author: Fgrir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 03:54:27 pm
content: FWIW I just bought a new 34465A and it comes with "KeysightCare Technical Support" active throughout the term of the warranty. So at least the basic level of support is included for free, for a short while, if you buy new.

author: Amaruk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 05:10:08 pm
content: You can get the 3 thermistor coefficients quite easily on your own for a series of experiments. I did it for a 100K thermistor recently and it works great.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 01:06:22 am
content: If you really do work at Micron, you probably have a better chance of getting an answer out of keysight than we all doThey are pushing really hard on “solutions” rather than equipment, so maybe they have just pulled all of their firmware guys off working on these things internally and moved them to “solutions” for big customers.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 03:58:03 am
content: "This facility would be nice to maintain as long as you stupid and poor customers don't interfere with our great superior top notch work."- World after Carly Fiorina destroyed Hewlett-Packard.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 03:50:36 pm
content: Quote from: Amaruk on October 26, 2021, 05:10:08 pmThat’s really not the point of this thread.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2022, 04:17:57 pm
content: I hadn't seen this thread before...Come to think of it, maybe we could have some threads with paid subscription?

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 12:32:21 am
content: Price: Call Us

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 12:36:46 am
content: Keysight customer care - the more you pay the more we care!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 12:51:06 am
content: The next iteration of the picture: one hand on the left, with the middle finger extended.

author: arcitech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 06:45:50 am
content: I should have asked earlier today, when reporting what appeared to be clearly unintentional data exposure of other assets to my account, if I needed a Keysight Care subscription to let them know about a potentially major problem of their platform security.

author: dxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 07:58:38 am
content: Quote from: Bud on July 23, 2022, 12:51:06 amWell, it's there attempt to increase profits. In the 90ies, if you wanted decent test equipment, there was not much around these big companies like HP, Tektronix and others. But nowadays, a ~1000EUR Hantek scope is good enough for 97% of the people. The only people left buying from them are companies who are in the high end business or need them for certifying things. But that is only a very niche market and development costs for Keysight and others are high. So i don't think they earn much money with it.I'm always surprised that companies like Keysight, Tektronix & Co still exist.

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 09:39:23 am
content: Quote from: dxl on July 23, 2022, 07:58:38 amHP and Tek were always about the very top end. When the HP8640A came out in 1973, it was $4,200. You could buy a pretty good new car for that much. Their scopes were priced well above what hobbyists and small repair shops were going to pay. HP got out of analogue scopes in the early 80s. HP and Tek concentrated on products other companies couldn't make. By the mid 80s there were a lot of companies making 20MHz solid state analogue scopes for $200 to $300 as well as better ones up to 100MHz. They were plenty good enough for most hobbyists, a lot of production line work and so on.HP's strategy was to go further up the food chain rather than compete with someone in Taiwan making a 20MHz scope. It worked, but you have to wonder if it wasn't going eventually to run out of steam. Also there were cultural changes after Bill and Dave retired, and the company became more bureaucratic, less genuinely customer focused and a lot more interested in marketing and PR claptrap. They also ventured into commodity markets such as printers and PCs. They did very well with printers, but it's a high volume business and it creates a different outlook.Another aspect to it may be going the general way of companies which were for decades innovative, created markets and were immensely successful, then they lost their way and fizzled out. RCA is a good example.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 01:12:49 pm
content: a child thread ofhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-officially-lost-the-plot-dont-buy-if-youre-a-hobbyist/? i dont have to read all, now i know what to put last in the list... errr... i dont even can afford any of those brand name stuffs, so i guess i'm safe down here

author: nomead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 01:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: arcitech on July 23, 2022, 06:45:50 amThey still seem to have issues with their database security. Couple years back when i was browsing my information i noticed lots of unfamiliar stuff. Just because my user info contained my work email address i got access to my employers asset inventory. When reporting the incident i could almost read between the lines how i was attacking Keysight.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 01:44:42 pm
content: KeySight KeyNoVision KeyBS

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 02:20:23 pm
content: Quote from: arcitech on July 23, 2022, 06:45:50 amThat sounds like a perfect excuse to start shitposting about them on Tw*tter. When organisations devolve to the point where you can't even do them a favour without jumping through hoops it's time they died and deserve any public flack they get in the run-up to their demise.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 04:19:33 pm
content: As someone that really likes the Keysight products (and I have lots of them), it is really sad to read all these posts about their service so deteriorating.Maybe they just need a new CEO?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 04:28:14 pm
content: No, they need to get the old HP culture back, which was was ruined and destroyed by a succession of new CEOs. As our Italian friends say "A fish rots from the head." and cutting the head off once the rest has started to rot won't make the rest of the fish good again. It takes years, even 10s of years, to build a good, positive, effective company culture; it can be destroyed in months.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 05:07:03 pm
content: I've had a Keysight account for years because I've bought parts for older hp and Agilent stuff I was repairing. Yes they used to havesomeparts for older gear.But they send me several emails a week like this tutorial -"Now Save Time Analyzing Frequency Response "Before you can get the video or brochure or tutorial they ask about your project needs, interest area, form factor, preferred distributor ... You can't simply watch the video or get the PDF of the information they are peddling. Sure I can fib about all that and get the video but isn't that ruining their database of information? My answers mean nothing.They even send me links to buy new equipment but their policy is to not sell to "hobbyists" any longer. I don't think my account there is worth a rat's a** anymore.

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 05:21:56 pm
content: It's notoriously hard to change an organisation which has developed a dysfunctional culture.There's a lack of commonsense and customer awareness in this. Some whizz kid has come out with all these exciting scaled packages to monetise support for corporate and institutional users. They are still prepared to sell, especially low end stuff, to individuals who can't really be expected to pay for these packages. What if those people come across software bugs, errors in manuals, clear defects in products etc? This could be considered valuable feedback which should be used to correct the product. It would make more sense to make it plain they won't touch that part of the market and concentrate on large customers, than to do it badly, or present gotchas after products have been bought.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 05:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on July 23, 2022, 04:19:33 pmA number of years ago we met the CTO Jay at a meeting in Sana Rosa about their new DAC (Griffin) for possible use in EW applications and later about getting access to their 600GHz InP process which we did some preliminary chip designs with. Asked after they split off from Agilent and noted the "new" culture and asked if they were trying to reinvent themselves as the new HP, the answer I got was absolutely!! Unfortunately, guess Jay didn't have much say so in the direction they were/are heading!!Agree this is very sad and painful as we had always held HP in the highest regards, less with Agilent, and now way less with KS. We are watching the destruction of a technology icon in real time, just like we've already witnessed with Tektronix and long ago with Bell LabsBest,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 06:03:23 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 23, 2022, 04:28:14 pmAgree, a new CEO won't get this fixed, this will take decades to turn around. The total US business culture has evolved to short term management of the stock price for the short term good of the shareholders and executives, nobody cares about long term investments and strategies anymore here in US.Best,

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 06:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 23, 2022, 06:03:23 pmNot just the US, it's normal practice here in the UK nowadays too.

author: arcitech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 02:46:52 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 23, 2022, 02:20:23 pmI'll leave that to someone else. Last time I shit posted on Twitter about a company's tech ineptitude, it was because their SaaS software placed assets in a public S3 bucket, differentiated in URL by only a SEQUENTIAL 10-digit number, and then told me this wasn't a problem when I opened a support request asking wtf. After having them nuke all my company's assets and terminate our account, I took to Twitter and shortly thereafter so other customers could be made aware. The (developing country-based) SaaS company's fancy NYC law firm sent correspondence to several C-suite folks claiming I was using stolen credentials to access private data. This proved they didn't get the point. Then this software company, who was just the data processor, tried to get their biggest client (Tata) to sue me personally.That was the last time I've ever used an identifiable/traceable account to let a company know about a serious problem, until now. But IMHO this time it's not as serious since instead of passports and other rather sensitive info of all types being exposed, it just seemed to be serial numbers and vague location. (I didn't exactly poke around.)Unrelated, don't ever use SaaS with the word "fresh" in the name.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 06:28:33 pm
content: Interesting thread. I have a lot of experience in this space on both sides of the fence. Formerly on the attack side, now on the defence side.If you want to fuck with corporates on the security front, some tips:1. Do all business via Twitter where possible.2. Make sure you use a shitty foreign VPN with no support as an egress point for doing it.3. Use a completely different browser or Firefox container to do the shitposting.4. Use a pseudonym always. Never use your real name.5. Keep that pseudonym used for one activity only then burn it.4. Do all drops via pastebin or equivalent.5. Never accept a reward, attribution or contact request via any primary or side channel other than one you set up and agreed yourself.Most corporates who have climbed the organisational risk ladder have an incident management process in place to establish who you are and how they can silence you quickly and efficiently. They will actually buy software in that tracks and analyses what is posted and looks for correlating information to build a case against you. And then they will set the lawyers on you. They don't give a fuck. They see you as an enemy even if you're doing responsible disclosure or genuinely trying to help. You are a risk.Reason?Most of them are running a pretty thick facade over a pile of burning excrement and if anyone finds out their customers will fuck off faster than a seagull after some chips. so reputation management is more important than actually fixing shit.This isn't universally the case and I would not lower myself to working for one ofthoseorganisations but even in the more reputable ones you have to beat the internal vultures off the corpse of someone who is trying to help you.If you give someone a job title which enables them to do something bad for society, they will do their job to the best of their ability...

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 06:38:29 pm
content: I suppose they could just run a decent forum with a couple of sensible and mature types assigned to sorting out the wheat from the chaff, answering legitimate questions and reporting back on genuine problems.Too hard in a bureaucracy I suppose.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 06:43:56 pm
content: That's technically about 50% of my job.