looking for SMT line, under $USD60K, UIC, Fuji, Assembleon? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 10:02:05 am
content: I'm looking at a small SMT line. 50 small boards per day, 15 unique components though I'd like to sometimes do the larger boards that have about 50 unique on them.I can't get the boards done locally and shipping parts to my current (international) assembler is hard / expensive / unreliable for some parts. The SMT line will mostly be a back up plan to improve lead time / help when parts aren't able to be shipped etc. I have decent current 3 phase and plenty of clean dry air. Factory space so size isn't a major issue but if the whole setup is less than 8 m long that would be nice as I always want more toys...For the pick and place I'm looking at used Universal Advantis or Assembleon Opal X II. I've also contemplated Fuji, europlacer and Essemtec. Smallest parts currently required are 0402 and 0.5 mm pin pitch FPC. Is there a strong preference for any particular machine?Oven I'm planning on a Vitronics, BTU or Heller. I'll only be running lead free, and currently use GC10 which seems to work well for me. Is there something that does the job without needing more that 50 amps at 400 V?Stencil printer, DEK looks like the option. Anything else I should look at?Anyone got specific advice unit wise?

author: AgileE
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 02:27:41 am
content: Hi,I'd be impressed if you can get a workable automated line in Oz for anywhere near that price ;-) That said your volumes are low enough that the set up you have outlined is serious overkill. If you have panelised boards then manual printing with a half-decent printer is a practical option esp. given the pitch of components you are aiming for. If using in-line machines don't forget to include a sprinkling of linking conveyors so you get the most out of the machines, also don't forget an exhaust system for the oven. Most of the more 'serious' brands of P&P should be fine but keep an eye on the feeder availability & costs, you can *never* have enough feeders ;-)50amps 3phase should be enough unless you are planning on a 10+ zone oven in which case you may be getting a little 'crowded' on both the power and length front. Along similar thoughts to a manual paste printer you may also want to consider a small batch oven, which would do the job with less space & power (just not fully automated).If you are near Camberwell (Victoria) you are welcome to drop in and have a look at our current set up (PM me). DEC printer, Europlacer P&P, HB oven and a mix of conveyors, loaders & unloaders. For quite a while I used an APS batch oven and it did quite well, our vapour phase was not nearly as useful, esp. when its price and running costs are factored in.

author: uzbek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 10:01:16 pm
content: Hi,we have an automated line with an automated stencil printer, 2 pick and places machines, and a reflow oven. The total length with conveyors is around 7.5m. It was acquired in 2019 for a little bit less than 60k USD. That 60k USDs also includes an air compressor with dryer, a piping system for compressed air, a ventilation system, and some minor modifications to our electrical installation. Don't forget to include those costs in the calculation for the SMT line.The automated stencil printer is DEK Horizon 03i. Around 10k PCBs, with components ranging from 0402 to BGA ICs and 0.5mm pitch QFNs, went through this machine, and based on that I would recommend it. Replacement parts are cheap and can be easily found. Also, the manuals are very well written so if you haven't used this machine before, you can quickly learn.Previously to this stencil printer, we used manual printing with the manual stencil printers. First DIMA then LPKF Protoprint S. For 50 boards per day that is also an option, however, I think that from the point of repeatability, precision and scalability - an automated stencil printer is a better option. It will be more expensive than the manual printing setup but if you at any point have to scale your production, you won't have a problem with the stencil printer.Pick and places are Essemtec FLX2011LC and FLX2011LCV. They use CLM feeders that are basically cassette feeders and we got a bunch of them with the machines, otherwise, those feeders and replacement parts for the machines are expensive. Those PnPs are great for the high mix, low volume production that we have. As I said, they placed components ranging from 0402 to BGA ICs and 0.5mm pitch QFNs and they have successfully done that - of course for smaller pitch components and 0402 we have had to play around with settings and reduce the speed to achieve high yield. The average placement speed per machine is around 3000CPH. I would say that we are satisfied with the machines although replacement parts and feeders are really expensive.Reflow oven: we had Heller and now we have smaller Essemtec RO300FC-C. RO300FC-C is a smaller reflow oven (length of 2m) with 3 heating zones and 1 cooling zone. It has a pin-chain conveyor.We used it for PCBs with 2,4 and 6 layers and basically it is a plug-and-play once you set up the reflow profile based on the solder paste that you use.All in all, we bought the SMT line because of the same reasons as you: we wanted to improve our lead time and have production under our roof and we managed to do that.@AgileE did you acquire new Europlacer or have you bought used one? What is the price of their feeders and replacement parts?

author: AgileE
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 01:48:07 am
content: Hi uzbek,I made the assumption that the $60K was in $AU, so that would drop it to around $42KUS (not sure of your location, but my guess is not in AU), which would make things a bit harder. The next issue is that in AU there is a *very* limited market for used SMT assembly equipment. Most are very old and any parts would have to be imported (as would feeders). You could import a used machine, but expect to be spending a significant portion of your budget on shipping, and then add 10% for the local sales tax on the imported items (GST). If you wanted to inspect before purchase you would also need to add an International trip to the cost (but could be a potential holiday!). Also there is close to *no* local support from suppliers and they generally don't have local offices and don't keep parts on hand (certainly not for older machines) and I doubt they would be interested in helping out on an older machine. It's a very different problem to those that are in the US, Europe or Asia ;-( I would really, really like to have ready access to used machines and parts, expanding my line would be so much less expensive. I'm rather envious when I look at the listings for machines overseas.We got our Europlacer new, by the time you added in freight, risk, reliability and parts availability on a used machine, it was the obvious choice. It is most likely not the case elsewhere. The feeder 'elements' are quite inexpensive, only a couple of hundred or so for new ones. The trolleys that you put them in however are extremely expensive, as are the powered 'stand-alone' feeders. There is also a limited supply (anywhere) of used Europlacer feeders as older model feeders are still usable with new machines (albeit with reduced speed etc), so second hand machines often don't come with feeders. As we do not just make our own products but also offer assembly services the reliability of the machines is critical.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 04:59:13 am
content: I'm looking at a second hand RO300FC or RO400FC, though is there a reason for the pin chain over belt?I'm looking to spend USD$60K (sorry for not specifying currency, I forgot there was a country flag) I'll be shipping from overseas to Australia. I'm not looking to buy from AU, prices are nuts and availability is terrible. I do lots of freight normally, so not too scared of that bit.Any reason for moving from the Heller? I'm mostly looking at the RO300/400 because they are much smaller and take a lot less power.Machine wise I'm still deciding between the Fuji, Assembleon / Yamaha / Philips, or Universal Instruments. Feeders seem easiest to find for UIC/Yamaha though Fuji and Yamaha have some support in Australia. They all seem to end up a similar total price.The Essemtec pantera xv is the same price as the UIC Advantis. The Advantis says it's 32,000 CPH vs 3400 CPH for the Pantera XV, not sure if raw speed matters that much or if it's a good measure of quality, the machines are similar years (2008/2009). The feeders cost more for the Essemtec.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 05:33:10 am
content: Loki,PM sent

author: uzbek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 12:29:35 pm
content: With a pin chain, it is easier to reflow PCBs that have a double-sided component placement. Of course, for each PCB panel, you have to set up pin chain width but that is done easily and in less than 2 minutes.Also, if you have a conveyor or unloader or any other machine after the reflow oven, you should use a pin chain.Regarding Heller, you won't have a problem with it. We just wanted more space in our place (for other machines). The bonus is that RO300 is taking less power.I don't have experience with Universal but from what I have read here and from what I heard, they are working well. If the feeders and replacement parts are cheaper for Universal, I would go for Universal.@AgileE we are in EU and you are right, we spent around 4k USD for shipping and then some for taxes. If you can say, what is the price that you have spent on Europlacer with feeders and carts? What Europlacer do you have? Lineo II?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 05:37:33 pm
content: OK, I have a few data points. I bought a used Quad/Samsung QSA30A from an auction, and then had to do a LOT of work repairing it. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the base Samsung model must have been real popular in the far East, as MANY brokers had quite affordable prices on repair parts.I spent something like US $200-300 each for spare boards. Quad electronic feeders are quite affordable in the US, about US $70 each. I spent about US $625for a placement head with the flying vision camera to replace a bad one on my machine. I can't say if this vintage of machine would be good for 0402 passives, but it has proved to do acceptably with 0.5mm TQFP chips. The base machine is a Samsung CP30, but with Quad flying vision cameras and Quad electronic feeders instead of Samsung's purely mechanical/pneumatic feeders.My previous P&P was a Philips CSM84, purely mechanical alignment jaws, no way good enough for 0402 or 0.5mm pitch. But, their manuals were WAYYYY better than Samsung's. I learned how to program that CSM just from the manuals and was making boards in one week, having never seen a P&P before. The Quad/Samsung took me several months and LOTS of help from a guy who trained people at the factory.Jon

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 12:57:03 pm
content: @IconicPCB what equipment are you using? It would be interesting to know what local people have. Are you happy with it?

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 11:55:42 pm
content: Your expectations do indeed sound like large overkill for your requirements. At 50 boards per day the raw speed certainly isn't a critical measure.A Phillips/Yamaha/Assembleon machine is definitely a good option but you may struggle to get local support. From discussions I've had I don't expect Hawker Richardson support the Phillips/Assembleons (even though they're mostly just rebadged Yamaha machines). That said, there areheapsof feeders and spare parts available out of Asia so they're probably the easiest of the "vintage" options. I went the mid-range Chinese option for my pick and place and I'm happy with it. I will point out thought that you don't understand the shortcomings until you've operated a pick and place for some time. Where they lose out is in the time spent programming and setting up/changeover so are no good for a lot of varied contract manufacturing. For just the couple of types of boards you need to do they're perfect.For the quantity of boards you're talking a semi-automatic stencil printer will do the job but if you get to double that number at that stage I would definitely start considering an automatic printer. You then need a board loader to feed it as well, so it gets expensive. I was fortunate enough to pick up both of these machines secondhand and they are serving well.You don't need an expensive Heller oven. Just get a basic 6 zone one from someone like Jaguar in Shenzhen and run a profile on it once a month. The Chinese ovens I've looked at all use a lot less power than the Hellers (ours is something like 25kW on startup, 5kW running, 3 phase 415V). I suppose they heat up slower but that's never been a problem for us - we just turn it on when we begin the setup process and by the time the first board comes out of the pick and place the oven is up to temp.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 12:42:45 pm
content: After looking into the Essemtec RO300 / RO400 that's what I'm looking for as far as ovens. As far as stencil, DEK Horizon or MPN both with inspection.Pick and place is still a bit more confusing, I'm only looking at used machines (major brands). I'm attempting to choose between Yamaha, universal, samsung or Essemtec. I think the Essemtec is out to due to feeder prices but the others all look like good options.

author: uzbek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 01:31:09 pm
content: Which Samsung and Yamaha machines are you looking?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 02:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on January 04, 2022, 12:42:45 pmThe engineers that service my Essemtec p&p all love the RO300/400 ovens and say those that have really like them and they hardly ever fail. We went with a Heller because its a large piece of rugged equipment that's going to last a good time and we wanted the capacity to handle future challenges, the brand is popular and respected and the price is pretty good too. As others have mentioned previously a similar zone count from one of the budget Chinese brands does claim a lower power usage but I think you'll find they are much smaller, our Heller can take a 500mm wide PCB and can process a board that big almost non-stop with no process gap. A cheaper oven might need some recovery time between boards or burn through its heaters more quickly. The bigger non-budget Chinese ovens are far more similar to the established brands on those numbers and can still be half the money, depending what you compare them too.For the pick and place I would pick whatever is available at the right price in a nice bundle, I don't think you necessarily need to get too hung up on specific models but probably avoid the specialist(odd form or high speed chipshooters) ones and aim for as new as possible.I wouldn't buy an 2nd user Essemtec unless it came with a massive bundle of feeders, that does happen... sometimes. As a happy Essemtec user I'm not even sure I could make the same choice again, the low volume high mix market is no longer the preserve of niche machines and I think you can now get it done on most modern platforms. Where the Essemtec still reigns is when there is no conveyor fitted and instead you can fill all 4 sides with feeders, this is what made the decision for us last time but this has its own disadvantages, although I don't think they apply to you.Never heard anyone say buying a DEK was a bad idea and if the UK is anything to go buy there are units for sale all the time of every model and vintage as well as a 2nd user specialist refurb/serving outfit.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 01:00:09 am
content: I'm ruling out the Essemtec pick and place machines then. Samsung CP 60, Universal Advantis or Assembleon Opal X II for around the same money or universal Genesis for a little more. I can get a working Topaz X + Emerald X for $10K half the price of the Samsung or Universal. The most expensive I'm contemplating is the Yamaha yg 100 with feeders for $50k, which pushes my total budget out by 10K over, but if it's worth it I can be a bit flexible.The Samsung and Topaz X / Emerald X say they can do 0603mm (0201) though the pair is around 7 years older than the other options. I do get two machines then though so I've got a back up if one breaks... I only need 0402 inch min. The Topaz X comes with plenty of feeders and they seem very cheap / easy to get.The Genesis can place 0402mm (01005) - 30mm x 30mm. It's 3568 Kg so I'll need to hire a bigger forklift than mine to move it... so a little extra expense.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 02:22:06 pm
content: Come at it from another angle, if you choose one of these and you need help getting it running, or you have a failure and need some expertise and spares ASAP, who comes to your aid? What do they charge, how many people do they have & how far do they have to travel?In the UK I know for instance that the Samsung/Hanwha dealer still sells refurbishes and supports older models and I also know his daily rate is pretty competitive. I have also seen a slightly bigger CEM than us with a room full of Opal/Emerald/Topaz machines and they all had a sticker on the side from a specialist outfit that services them but my Google fu can't find them on my own so I'd have to ring that CEM and ask them and that's probably true of quite a few other machines that are made by brands that no longer exist or no longer have a UK presence, finding your support network is part of the answer, unless you are the kind of sadist who wants to, or has the time to spend doing it all yourself.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 01:38:54 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on January 05, 2022, 02:22:06 pmThis is very good advice and a big part of the reason I went with the new Chinese pick and place, since at least there is warranty and support. Sure, the support isn't in-person, but the right Chinese companies (in my case Kayo) will respond immediately over WhatsApp, so you can shown them the issue and get a resolution in real time.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 04:00:45 am
content: Local support for most of the brands isn't available. If I buy a new Yamaha, Europlacer or Juki there is some. Otherwise it's all getting parts / support from overseas but I do that currently with a few non-electronics machines and zoom calls with someone in the USA are petty good for most things compared to what's available here.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2022, 11:16:56 am
content: Paid for the pick and place machines today! A universal Genesis GX11 with PTF and a universal Genesis GC30. The come with 60 feeders, 30 of them dual lane, all modern gold electronic feeders and a few of them bigger sizes.I've put an offer for MPM Accela in the USA though just found out today that the local dealer isn't stocking MPM any more and isn't keen to work on it if I do need help. I'm contemplating a DEK Horizon 3i instead, though it's in a lot rougher condition. The guys that are selling the MPM ("Unit is in superb condition, superior to inline with others of the same age.") are selling it in "as is" condition and looking for 5K USD to do a demo video of it printing and do any maintenance needed on it to print. I'm not sure if it's worth $5K when DEK Horizons can be had for <8K in working condition on eBay...

author: kinero
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 03:54:55 am
content: Hi, I'm following this thread! Curious how much GX11 / GC30 combo cost, and where you purchased it. I'm considering the same! (USA)Cheers

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 11:35:00 am
content: You've got a huge advantage because you can get US power ones, and check them out. Also the freight won't cost 30K... I got them from Malaysia. 32K for the pair with PTF. 2007 models. They had series 2 2012 models for about 10k more which I would have preferred but the sold a day before I said I wanted them. It still seems like a good deal. I'll find out in 2 weeks when they arrive! I bough the MPM Accella, Essemtec RO300FC-c oven, destacker and an old AOI machine. Just got ducting and air piping worked out so hopefully everything is good to go when it arrives.The GC30 + GC11 + PTF needed a 40' container to ship, they are big. The main reason I went for them is that good feeders seem to be easy to find, where as the older Phillips Topaz machine I was looking at was all pneumatic feeders. I also need the option to feed from trays otherwise I would have got a GC60 that I could find cheaper. I want to pick odd form / pin in paste as well.I haven't bought an unloader yet. I'm contemplating a Chinese one as it's something I can survive without if/when it breaks.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 04:24:39 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on April 05, 2022, 11:35:00 amI had mechanically-activated Yamaha feeders in my Philips CSM84 (and the 16mm+ ones were pneumatic) and thought they were OK. Now that I've upgraded to the Quad QSA30 with electronic feeders, I found out how BAD those Philips/Yamaha feeders were! The Quad feeders are definitely harder to thread, but rarely have peeling issues or sticking. That used to be a CONSTANT issue with the Philips feeders. I used to hang small C-clamps off the empty tape coming out the back of the feeders to help the tape advance.Jon

author: kinero
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 01:16:12 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on April 05, 2022, 11:35:00 amWow that's a very good deal, even if it takes another 10K for shipping. Did you buy it through SMTNET?

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 11:32:09 am
content: I found them just by googling for some of the machine I wanted but they have listings on smtnet as well.I was a bit scared about the older feeders with the Phillips and though there seems to be a ton of Yamaha CL feeders available I'm not sure how all the different 3rd party manufactures compare. With the UIC stuff you can get lots of different age feeders (gold, green, black, etc) but the new-ish version ones are not that expensive and you can actually buy them from UIC.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 05:30:49 pm
content: I only have experience with some older Philips/Yamaha feeders from my CSM84 (I think same type as YM84). A few issues on those. They used a scheme with sort-of gears to pull the cover tape. The gears were allowed to slip so they didn't pull the cover tape too hard. On many of the 8mm feeders, I had to choke up on the tension spring to increase the pulling force. I also had to choke up on the spring that advanced the component tape when the piston released the trip lever on the feeder. Also, especially on some plastic tapes, the plate that held down the component tape could lift up, and the sprocket could jump teeth. This was really bad with taller parts like electrolytic capacitors. The hold down plate was only kept down with a spring. I examined some Samsung feeders and saw they had a latch on the hod down plate so this could not happen.The Quad feeders do not have the little hold-down blade like Philips/Yamaha feeders, but the advance motor is so smooth that parts NEVER jump out of their pockets.Jon

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 09:45:00 am
content: My machines (GX11 and GC30) have arrived. The platform tray feeder is much larger than I imagined, and the whole setup is pretty giant. The oven and stencil printer should be here in the next few week and then I'll get power connected and actually turn on the machines.There are a few things that have come up so far. Shipping has been very expensive. 1 x 40' container and 1 x 20' container. Two semis for the 40' because I don't have a 5000 kg or larger forklift here. Because the machines were second hand, I had to also pay for fumigation and quarantine inspection which was a pretty giant chunk of extra cash. I also need to buy some more nozzles for the lightning head. I currently have no idea what to choose out of compliant, steel or ceramic nozzles.I still need to get power connected, air and fume extraction are mostly done, but to anyone thinking of this, the little extras do add up in cost.I did make a mistake with conveyors. I got 1 x 1 m conveyor and 1 x 0.5 m conveyor but the 0.5 m had a tiny max width, which constricts my total max width. I'll see what size panels make sense for my boards as we go but I might need to replace that. I was trying to cut down on the "less useful" space as the total line length is almost 10 m now. I've got lots of feeders though which is good, hopefully they all work okay.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 12:37:39 pm
content: Because of the required fumigation, did you get the gear sealed in plastic beforehand? Fumigation may not be good for electronics in particular optical devices - think all the old PC gear that is used to control these machines.I have had several times in the past gear failing shortly after it was unpacked due to failing HDD because of the fumigation.Plastic wrapping may not be good enough, best is to be plastic sealed, which is not expensive and can be done easily on small to large items (large like ur PnP machines).When you said the fumigation was expensive, did you get it done here or in US? Normally I get this done in the states (if it comes from there). I guess you also had to pay for the whole container.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 04:53:25 am
content: Thanks for the heads up, It is plastic wrapped but not plastic sealed. I'll pester them about the machine that aren't here yet.The cost for fumigation isn't actually the fumigation but because there's a few weeks wait for AQIS inspection after fumigation the container had to sit in a quarantine warehouse and that costs $280 per day, plus transport to fumigation warehouse. $4000 extra per container.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 05:12:28 am
content: So the fumigation was done here? When done overseas (e.g USA) and you have all documents ready it should be very fast from when it leaves the ship. Make sure the timber used for the crating and pallets is also the right treated type required for down under.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 05:59:09 am
content: ahh I'll do that next time!

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 06:53:55 am
content: Everything is now in my factory. The AOI is larger than I expected (from the measurements in the manual...) and the stencil printer (MPM Accela) is fantastically giant. Just shockingly huge. It also weighs 3500 kg (same as the pick and place machines) so it wasn't easy to move into position. As a positive and negative it's got built in conveyors on either side so I now have a spare conveyor. I've been getting power connected today and it'll be finished tomorrow. I'll find out soon if it works! I think it'll be a while until I work out how it use it all.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 12:28:00 am
content: So after 3 months of arranging, getting power and air connected, levelling, buying greases and oils, levelling more, cleaning a lot, replacing a few parts and learning a lot (slowly) about the machines they actually run.The stencil printer (MPM Accela) was a bit of a nightmare to get working but it's running now. It still sometimes randomly doesn't have a working camera when you turn it on but restarting it fixes that and once running it runs all day fine. The results from the inspection and it in general are very good. I started with just dry under stencil wipe, then realised the vacuum options which is a huge improvement. The input air filter and one conveyor input sensor were the only thing that was actually broken on it, otherwise things just needed oiling and repositioning.The Universal GC30 is working smoothly. One of the air cylinders that opens one of the nozzle changers leaks air so it'll need a new seal at some point. Board support pins weren't included and are vital for any thin or large boards. I suspect they are a good idea for all boards. I've made some sheet metal board supports on my press brake and they seem to be working fine but I might see how much the manufacturer ones are. Oh and width control doesn't work properly but I can live without it... it would be nice though.The GX11 is working well for 1 of the heads (4 spindle high force) the 7 spindle head currently needs calibration I think. It complains about nozzle collision when it performs a nozzle change or when it picks up a part. I can survive without it though as I'm just using the GX11 for large parts and the 4 spindle head works fine for that. It'd be nice to get both heads working though.Essemtec Ro300FC needed a few bits changed and replaced to work in Australia but it's now running smoothly.I haven't set up the AOI yet, currently the Accela does solder paste inspection and I run the universal machines in NPI mode on the first board and check all the placements by hand for the first board and glance at later ones. I haven't got validation (PSV) setup yet because the docs were pretty confusing... if anyone knows how the bar code stuff is meant to work I'd love to know because currently it doesn't. I'm using gold feeders with PSV tabs.Oh and if I was looking for a new machine I'd look for feeders that had proper sized handles...

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 04:35:17 am
content: @Loki42 Sounds awesome!

author: tomgat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 02:17:32 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on January 04, 2022, 12:42:45 pmI wouldnt overthink the PNP machine. I have one of the cheapest PNP machines, (QiHe TVM-926S) which I absolutely love. I has a conveyor, uses the clone yamaha cl feeders (pneumatic and electric), and rarely has any issues once properly calibrated. Also, because the yamaha feeders are so cheap, it lets me build racks of preloaded components which saves an enormous amount of time when loading/unloading the machine for different projects. Yes, the documentation is sparse, but the machine overall is so simple, its pretty easy to learn.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 09:47:12 pm
content: Little update. I've found a calibration kit so I can get the 7 spindle head working properly. It's $6500 used which pricey but I might get one in the future if I need the extra performance.

author: tomgat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 12:10:15 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on October 19, 2022, 09:47:12 pmDamn. That is pretty pricey. You have a bad ass machine, though.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 09:57:55 pm
content: The new cal kits are insanely pricey like usd$50k for my machines. I'd like to just rent one...

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:15:40 am
content: We've now run a few different boards through the line. The 0.6mm small board was the most problematic, but nothing seemed to sag too much when going through the oven. The 0.6 mm really needed good board support though.One of the Elmo servo controllers in the stencil printer is sometimes flaky and it'll drop off the CANopen network and then the machine will need to reinit. I'm not if I'll just deal with that being a bit annoying for the moment or if I'll replace the controller.I've been putting down nightmarish tiny BGAs with it (0201 size BGA...). Nozzle selection for most of the parts took a little while, especially for connectors etc but the component teaching mode works well. I'm confused about all the different component reject options though. I assume for higher price parts stuff things like a reject belt could be useful but it takes up a lot of feeder slots and I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I'm currently just running the 30 spindle head and the 4 spindle as the 7 spindle needs a calibration. Performance is fine so I'll just do that in the future if I need the extra slots / etc.

author: tomgat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 02:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on October 22, 2022, 08:15:40 amBefore you replace it... I recently had a servo driver with a similar intermittent issue, but mine was Modbus. In my case the issue was a broken solder joint on a through hole connector. A little flux and a stab with the iron and its been running great ever since.

author: tomgat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 03:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on October 22, 2022, 08:15:40 amDo you use an SMT X-ray on your BGA reworks? I am tempted to buy one later in the year to use for assisting with reworks, but I have had a mixed review from a friend who has an SMT X-ray system.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:24:35 am
content: The Elmo controller actually appears to lose power, no lights on it at all. The power cables appear fine and test okay with my multimeter but the connector in the unit could be faulty or something else in the power section.I'm not running x ray for the bga. I'm actually only using the 4 ball TI ldo in BGA format because the previous sot 23 was out of stock everywhere. It's too annoying though, the part is only 0.6mm square so the holes in the stencil are tiny and it's impossible for me to keep them perfectly clean. It's been a good test of the solder paste inspection though... I'm going to find a different ldo and avoid that part, even though the price and performance is great the manufacturing effort is too high.

author: tomgat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:26:51 pm
content: Quote from: loki42 on October 23, 2022, 12:24:35 am0.6mm should be stenciling fine without blockage. You might want to look at how the stencil was made. Anytime you run BGAs, you have to have the stencil etch polished because of the laser burrs on the fine pitch are prone to sticking.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:15:17 pm
content: I mean the whole part is 0.6mm square, not 0.6 pitch sorry. The stencil openings are tiny.