Who the hell JBC is? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 11:40:38 am
content: Hi!I'm looking for a reliable soldering station, I thought about HAKKO FX-951 or Weller WSD81. But on the EEVBlog channel in a "comparison" video, I noticed a JBC soldering station. Honestly speaking, this video looks like adverstment of JBC. Well, if they are so good, why not.But I really don't understand who they are, and what 80 years of experience they are talking about. The oldest information I can find is some JBC soldering station with similar looking logo from 1999 (in electronics magazine). Oldest JBC soldering station listed on eBay is from 2008. So why not compare HAKKO to OAYUE, or any other chinese brand. They cost ten times less and also can feed us with bullshit about 1000 years of experience.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 11:47:07 am
content: There were such comparisons. And FYI auyue makes expensive (for what it is) junk.

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 11:59:08 am
content: JBC stands for Jaime Benet Campabadal and it is as old as they claim.

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:15:01 pm
content: Well, junk - probably, but expensive?Quote from: wraper on October 25, 2018, 11:47:07 am

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:20:47 pm
content: WOW, thanksSo they bought real name, this is something. 1966-1997 period on this poster is still looks like bullshit, because no one seen this equipment. But at least they do something from 1997.Quote from: tsman on October 25, 2018, 11:59:08 am

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:26:38 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 12:15:01 pmIt's much more expensive than cheapest stuff but just as bad.

author: sstepane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 12:20:47 pmTesla is named after Nicola Tesla and it is possible to count the time inbetween as bullshit, but hey, they make very good stuff. As with JBC - its soldering equipmnet is very expensive, but, from my point of view, it costs its money.In fact, I don't really care what was 10 years ago with this company as long as it makes great stuff. Count in Dyson as well, btw.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:44:35 pm
content: Soldering iron manufacturers are notoriously bad at world wide marketing. Some top brands are almost unknown in many countries as a result.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:44:44 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 12:20:47 pmInventing your own BS. CEO of JBC is a son of original founderhttps://epp-europe.industrie.de/interviews-statements/interviews/power-of-experience/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 12:47:53 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 11:40:38 amIf you actually cared to watch the video I explained several times that it is not an apples-apples comparison, as the JBC is a more expensive iron. It is included as a baseline comparison because I happen to have one.Here in Australia the Hakko FX-951 is almost the same price as the JBC.

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:02:33 pm
content: Dyson is a great example of marketing bullshit. Yes, technically - they are innovative, but practically - expensive and completely useless.Quote from: sstepane on October 25, 2018, 12:39:23 pm

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:02:33 pmDyson stuff is very expensive, yet among the best in the market as well. Have you ever seen hand dryers in airports? Anything I've seen other than Dyson completely sucked in comparison. theretofore you will find Dyson hand dryers in most airports, not just because of marketing but because of performance.

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:20:48 pm
content: Yes, I saw this note. It's not about the video itself, I'm just mad about soldering equipment prices in general.For example how many years in man-hours you need to design, make and test something like Rigol DS1052 and you can buy it for $300 (may be less now).And you have to pay the same amount for "cheap" Weller or ERSA station, made of ten resistors, three transistors and some NiCr wire.Quote from: EEVblog on October 25, 2018, 12:47:53 pm

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:20:48 pmIf it's so simple why Chinese stations cannot achieve same performance? On top of that electronics are the most trivial part.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:30:10 pm
content: Troll alert ...

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:35:02 pm
content: Sorry, I do not buy itbecause it means nothing. Like all this old and ex-dead car brands now owned by chinese companies.Quote from: wraper on October 25, 2018, 12:44:44 pm

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 25, 2018, 01:30:10 pmNo, I'm not. Actuallytsmangave me information I want.

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:44:09 pm
content: Good question, may be because they don't want to? Or because they on the dark side? Or because they just don't care about all this crap they selling. I don't know.Quote from: wraper on October 25, 2018, 01:27:17 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:55:35 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:35:02 pmThere is no need to "buy" anything. It's a demonstrable fact.If you don't believe demonstrable facts then you are probably on the wrong forum...QuoteI'd love to know what you think about Weller's, or Fluke's or Tektronix's or Keysight's etc history...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 02:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:35:02 pmIf it means nothing, then why do you care about it in the first place?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 03:02:30 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:37:16 pmAnd you instantly misinterpreted it.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 03:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:35:02 pmWhat exactly are you inferring?Because you have never personally seen a JBC tool that is older than 20 years, the company must be owned by the Chinese? Is that your logic?!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 06:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:35:02 pmIt seems you opened this thread with a preconceived notion you want to see confirmed. It may be a classic case of confirmation bias.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 06:34:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 25, 2018, 06:28:59 pmMaybe nifty and treez should start their own forum populated only by “yes men”!

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 07:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 25, 2018, 06:19:26 pmThe Dysons have a somewhat unreliable construction of the floor-cleaning rotary brush accessory - which is regrettable, as it essentially makes them throwaway parts. However, the rest of the vacuum cleaner is amazingly durable and maintains its performance for years. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one; expensive as they are, you can pay much more for complete junk.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 08:15:28 pm
content: Quote from: GregDunn on October 25, 2018, 07:53:59 pmAvE did a teardown of a few Dyson products, amongst which a vacuum cleaner and both he and I weren't too impressed. Many parts that would be prone to break hard or impossible to replace weren't very sturdy. It's a lot of talk and just a little bit of walk.Those hand dryers aren't much better. They're a little sturdier, but functionally they're not ideal and apparently blow bacteria around even more than regular blowers.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 09:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 25, 2018, 06:19:26 pmSome few years ago, we bought a Dyson DC17 animal. We have 2 dogs and 2 cats. Mrs GreyWoolfe and I both love it. So far only a worn out belt for any issues. And it sucks very well. I have done a complete canister disassembly to give it a good cleaning of built up junk and it is a bit of a pain to do so but once every few years is OK by me.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 10:17:50 pm
content: Spent £300+ on a Dyson Allergy a few years ago, was rubbish.My Vax Air stretch upright is FAR superior and so is my Miele Revolution 700 Cylinder which has a remote control handle and electric brush head.Would never buy another Dyson, was all hype.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 11:27:57 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:20:48 pmThere is more to it. The difference is in the tips. Personally I'm a big fan of Ersa because so far their tips are the best I have worked with. JBC has the heating element included in the tips which is a plus when it comes to thermal performance. However, in my experience the JBC (and Weller) tips go bad very quickly so you keep changing tips and are soldering with a less then optimal tip. I can't comment on Hakko though.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 11:30:54 pm
content: I bought the cheap and cheerful Dirt Devil Reach 24V vacuum with the roller brush for floors.It's a bit "how ya doin" as Dave would say materials and finish-wise... but it works pretty well. As long as you clean the filters every week the thing works well.The charging station is very cheaply made, and the fact that no spare parts are available in-store (yet) are the minuses.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 02:42:32 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 25, 2018, 08:15:28 pmAve made a lot of stupid comments while tearing down dyson stuff. I didn't see anything particularly wrong in what I've seen. As of spreading bacteria, most of others might be spreading less bacteria because they simply work not much better than not drying hands at all. Not to say newer models have HEPA filter inside them to prevent this.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 12:45:43 pm
content: .

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 05:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 25, 2018, 08:15:28 pmYou are right about that. I find the Dyson hand blowers are often discustingly dirty as well. I like the regular dryers which blow hot air down much more: they are more hygienic and they work equally well.

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 06:23:11 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on October 25, 2018, 09:05:12 pmI was a little nervous when I saw the plastic hose and lots of intricately shaped pieces that fit together; honestly I expected it would fall apart within months. But as long as we keep it clean, it still does the best job of any vacuum we've ever owned; and none of the plastic pieces have so much as cracked. The only issue was the bearings of the roller brush seizing after a few years - and it can't be repaired, as it's a sealed item. I suspect it was due to someone in the house never cleaning pet hair out of it, until it started running hot and essentially locked up. I will be doing the cleaning on the new one, thankyouverymuch.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 12:20:47 pmHuh? The founder used his initials; that can't have been too expensive... ;-)QuoteBecause you are an expert on Spanish soldering irons??

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:44:30 pm
content: I'm talking about JBC, not about all industry.Regarding Weller, Fluke, Tek and other dinosaurs - you can find equipment from any period of their existence, unlike JBC.As if I was 100 years old and 90 years ago I repaired my grandfather's soldering iron - hooray, I have 90 years of experience in soldering equipment!And I don't think that new company can't make something cool and innovate, big companies are generally conservative,but all this marketing crap about centuries of experience means nothing if you can't prove it.All this crap is good for business, because people believe that everything they heard and saw more than 10 times is true, even if there is no evidence.Quote from: EEVblog on October 25, 2018, 01:55:35 pm

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 08:52:18 pm
content: Sorry, may be you experienced in electronics, but seems you heard nothing about marketing."Each brand has its own legend". You can buy just the name of company vanished 80 years ago.But buy name and real person who somehow belongs to this name, is much more cool.Quote from: wraper on October 25, 2018, 02:57:40 pm

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 09:06:42 pm
content: Of course not, my logic is simple - 20 is not equal to 80.As for the Chinese companies, this is an assumption associated with a large number of cases when the Chinese bought the rights to the trademark and “resurrected” it by selling something under this brand.Quote from: drussell on October 25, 2018, 03:47:20 pm

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 09:14:47 pm
content: Guys, such a great idea! I will invite you to this forum, but in read-only mode of courseQuote from: tooki on October 25, 2018, 06:34:31 pm

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 09:20:54 pm
content: Thank you. It turns out this brand has a real history, it is strange that on their page "about the company" there is almost no information. This is what confused me.Quote from: emece67 on October 26, 2018, 12:45:43 pm

author: Nifty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 09:38:46 pm
content: Thank you for info. I'm not a pro, and I don't use soldering iron every day, just time to time for occasional repairs.So I think I wouldn't noticed tips degradation for quite a long time. But this is interesting experience.Quote from: nctnico on October 25, 2018, 11:27:57 pm

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 11:14:36 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 01:20:48 pmWell, if Nifty needs yes-men for his forum, it seems I'll be the first.I too think soldering stations are overpriced. Come on, what is a soldering iron different from a clothes iron in terms of technology? The most expensive fancy-pantsy clothes irons you find on Amazon are 100 bucks. The average ranges around $40.Since soldering is a crucial task in electronics, I think manufacturers add that value to the price of the product.I've also noticed that the electronics hobbyist market seems to be plagued by what I'd call solderphoolery.See that Hakko. It looks like a 0-3 years old toy, not an industrial ruggedized device. You're certainly paying for that useless aesthetic design.Furthermore, real men don't need soldering stations. Real men use irons connected directly to the mains and sense the temperature with their fingers.After all it's all in your fingers.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 11:16:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 26, 2018, 05:26:11 pmI usually just walk out with my hands wet when I see such. I'm not going to spend 2 minutes until my hands are dry.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 11:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 26, 2018, 11:14:36 pmWith increased price, you get better performance. If you are fine with soldering stations which works well with easier jobs, it's your choice. It's not like with 50% price increase, you'll always get better results but overall there is a trend that more expensive stations solder better. Especially tough jobs when solder joint sinks heat away like hell. $40 is where more or less decent Chinese knockoffs start, still 90% of the stations at this price are total garbage. You cannot buy a remotely professional soldering station for that.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2018, 11:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 26, 2018, 09:06:42 pmThere is a saying that in English essentially says, "When youASSUME, you make anassout of youandme."

author: alpher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 12:44:27 am
content: Quote from: drussell on October 26, 2018, 11:32:29 pmAnd what it has to do with anything discussed here?Assume or don't, I've been in electronics (as a hobbyst mind you) since late seventies.Lived both in Europe and in N.A. and till the day I watched that video with Dave comparing some Hakko or weller to JBC I did not now that a thing known as JBC existed, I knew JBL or JVC, but JBC ?never heard of them before that.As far as Dyson is concerned, couldn't be happier with my V6.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 01:24:25 am
content: Quote from: wraper on October 26, 2018, 11:25:21 pmThe conspiracy theorist in me tells me all of them are ripping you off.If memory serves me right, Dave reviewed a Hakko 936 somewhere a while ago. I remember that I looked for the control chip and discovered that it was a µPC1701C. Its datasheet (attached) says right from the start that it is a triac controller for temperature-controlled panel heaters, cookers, film processing baths, etc.So there is no magic, voodoo or santeria. It is a jelly bean tried and true solution for any electrically-powered temperature-controlled device. And today with the 3¢ micros out there, $40 for a half decent soldering iron should be the norm.That's why people rave about disruptive solutions like the ts-100 and ts-80. I guess.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 01:34:14 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 01:24:25 amMicrocomtroller has very little to do with performance or price to produce. It's all about the heater/tips and handle. All besides that is a nice extra. Also you always will get charged more for specialized goods which are produced in limited quantity. Economy of scale that is. These are professional equipment not targeted at consumer market to begin with.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 02:11:35 am
content: Quote from: wraper on October 27, 2018, 01:34:14 amAlright.QuoteSo what you are saying is that a tip, a handle, a box and a transformer are sold for $300 to professionals? Well, if those work reliably and help you be more productive, I can't see the reason why you should not disburse that kind of money.However, there's nothing in there that can't produced for less. Even in low quantities.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 02:21:09 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 02:11:35 amWhy would they undercut themselves?

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 02:27:10 am
content: Yeah. Why?

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 02:32:22 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 02:11:35 amWe should not forget there is cost for doing R&D, which is not a one time process. I am not trying to justify the cost.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 11:41:51 am
content: I’ll admit, I’ve also wondered why soldering equipment is so expensive relative to the parts in the station.I suspect it’s pure economies of scale, or lack thereof. Even a relatively big soldering company is going to be selling far fewer units than consumer gear. Soldering stations are, in comparison, low-volume devices. So all the R&D work has to be amortized across far fewer units than consumer gear would.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 01:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 25, 2018, 12:26:38 pmGeneralization is the true junk here.Not all "cheapest stuff" is "just as bad". Sure, if you are putting these units in a 24/7 production environment, they will differ very little in durability. However, IME for hobbyist usage Aoyue makes sligthly higher quality than Yihua and X-Tronic units, but they all perform comparatively to their price. I have used a few units from them and personally own an 852A++ (the older black model). At work I use a FR-801 and I can tell the quality is much better, but not at the price I want to pay.Quote from: blueskull on October 25, 2018, 06:19:26 pmI use Metcal and FX-951 at work and IMHO I take the FX-951 any day of the week. Both are surely better than the FX-888 I have at home, though (again it is a matter of price).I have no experience with the JBC, though.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 06:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 27, 2018, 11:41:51 amI find it difficult to imagine what kind of R&D is being done on a temperature controlled metal stick that justifies two or three times the price.Maybe I've been watching too much AvE.

author: sstepane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 06:18:55 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 06:12:36 pmRight. But just up to the point of trying to make the same by yourself.

author: mySystemEngineer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 06:22:29 pm
content: I work in a large electronic company and all our high-end stations are JBC, they are excellent

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 06:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 06:12:36 pmThe trick is to control that temperature correctly and consistently. If that were trivial, control theory wouldn't be a field of research. Traditionally, thermal mass was a fair part of the solution, but that in itself hampers thermal recovery. Supplying the tip with exactly the right amount of heat in an instant proves to be a challenge which isn't quite solved yet. Of course, you also need to do that consistently while the equipment gets beat on by production workers, after years of wear and across all the various iron and tip configurations available.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 06:49:04 pm
content: .

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 06:56:11 pm
content: FWIW - my JBC is amazing. The variety of tips, fast changes, and amazing thermal performance is really hard to beat. I am faster, more accurate, and more capable since I got it.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 07:02:41 pm
content: My JBC is horrible. The display shoots to the sky instead of my face, tips oxidize in no time, to change temperature it requires entering a stupid PIN which by the way it displays to you, so what is the point of using a PIN

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 07:06:17 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 12:20:47 pmYou mean not seen in the USSR? I wonder why!

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 07:06:50 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 27, 2018, 07:02:41 pmAfter about 18 months - I have not had any tips oxidize or have any problems. Temp changes do not require a PIN - it is optional. I would like to see a more useful angle for the display, but it is generally not much of a problem the way I have set up my bench.I have not replaced a single tip yet. Hard to complain about that.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 08:28:03 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 01:24:25 amYES, I agree, BUT when Hakko used the uPC1701 (a new specialized chip at that era) cheapest iron brands used a on-off control with poor or less control or cheap proportional control. Hakko used an excellent PTC that still works to me after 30 years of soldering. Other "competitors" sell crap heaters with crap PTC. Today 1701 it's history, but at this moment was state of the art.That was 30 years ago if I remember correctly. But I only saw in my life two or three clones with the uPC1701 or similar control and were maked by electronic students to have a better soldering than chinese one. Most of actual "regulated solder stations" still now uses discrete control or worst even.Hakko produced new very basic design a lot of years ago, the 888 series worked better than 936 but competitors still copy the 936 with 888 logo. Why? 936 WORKS, but new are better!. 888 has better heater, better tip thermal coupling. It's much more better than 936? Nope, but it's better and cheap competitors not even match the total benefits and power of old 936!Where are the extra cost? I see Yihua (or Yihua clone, only God distinguish them) with single wire transformers (Autotransformer in english?) that depending in the position of AC Main socket you have 100-240 volt at iron tip!!!! The rest of stations uses a worst transformer than then big brands uses (that barely give you half the power announced) and if you measure the heater resistance it's impossible that delivers total power even if you connect to an original hakko. Simply crap with half of power. It works? Yes, some people not need 70 or (better) 130 watts in his irons, I use in field an old GOOT Iron with only 30 watts and for SMD and small components in thin PCB route it's too much. Then a lot of people that solder are satisfied with his 20 watts iron.Other extra cost? Quality of the tips, thickness of tin on they, Real ESD handle, ESD heater, ESD cable and station and not use a noisy and dangerous standard switching AC-DC power source.All of serious workers in electronics uses Pace, Ersa, Hakko, Metcal or JBC (I believe that I remembered all big brands, if not add to the list!), one not notice the difference in quality and usability until uses it, the real thing, not the cheap copy.But if somebody are happy with his T12 clone with a switching power source it's fantastic, he pay for that he need and saves a lot of money. I really and sincerely congratulate him for having spent only on what he needed.I need now a new (smallest) iron. I can't afford now a new JBC or PACE or Hakko cartridge station but love his quality and specs. Then I will make some concessions and make my own ESD safe handle but I have perfectly clear that the tip should be original and did buy an used station to control it (thanks to an amazing member of this forum).When the economic situation go better I'm going to buy for sure a new Pace or JBC station or simply buy an original handle to complete my work desk but I have perfectly clear that none clones can compare with the real one.Clearly for another forum member the situation is different and it will reach with a clone and will be happy with it.And Nifty, please, after read all post I think that you not know a lot of things outside your bubble. Your rhetorical question it's like a zen question but silly. If YOU not knows about something implies that this thing not exist? I think that sometimes you doubt that rest of the world exist when you shut down your eyes, isn't it? Please, read and inform yourself before affirm or claim nonsense facts, half of this forum are (sadly) discussions about solder stations that in some point includes a JBC, Pace or Hakko comparison.Sorry for my bad english, I haven't the skills to put in exactly words that I think and maybe I was unintentionally rude.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 08:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 27, 2018, 06:32:38 pmIt's one feedback loop with just one variable: temperature. I guess engineers figured that out long ago.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 09:05:17 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 08:36:31 pmIt's not. At this point I feel you're another victim of confirmation bias as I even indicated the things that complicate matters in my previous post. The fact that even high end solder stations aren't thermally recovering as well as you'd like shows that there's a lot more to it than slapping a simple PID controller in a unit and calling it quits. There are too many players in the market for them all to be playing along. It things were as easy as you suppose, one would have made a cheap and ideal station and taken the complete market by now.Severely underestimating what goes into proper operation could also point towards Dunning Kruger, of course.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 09:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: Tarloth on October 27, 2018, 08:28:03 pmWhy is that so? Maybe the µPC1701C was sold under an NDA at the discretion of NEC or perhaps it was really expensive. That's why I said in a previous post that, with the cheapbutt micros you find out there these days, this is one less barrier to separate the established (read expensive) brands from the rest.QuoteThat's the only part of the equation where I see something that can differentiate one competitor from another.Take the TS soldering irons. A soldering station is comprised of a tip, a heating element, a temperature sensor, a handle, a control unit and a power supply encased in a box. They realized that the control unit could be crammed into the handle. And the power supply could be a generic SPMS wall wart. So they got rid of that inconvenient box on your bench that had to be ESD safe.The price is one order of magnitude less than the expensive brands.Some reviewers tend to disparage the TS irons but the truth is that the concept works and reveals what is already perceived by everyone: soldering stations are overpriced.QuoteWelcome to the club. We are many.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 09:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 27, 2018, 09:05:17 pmAll you have to do is to show that the controlling units of those stations are monitoring other variables than temperature and that what you have is more than one control loop.I have shown an example with the Hakko 936 (µPC1701) that confirms my hypothesis. Now it is your turn.QuoteI'm not saying the stations can be ideal. Quite the opposite. They are just not worth their price. And if there are people willing to pay what they're asking for their stations, obviously they are not going to lower it.QuoteSurely, at this point of the discussion, anargumentum ad hominemis in order.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 10:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 09:55:09 pmOne of those other variables would be the different tips, as I've already mentioned above. Anyone who has ever tuned a PID loop knows that this can be enough to throw off your carefully tuned loop. It's not an argumentum ad hominem if there's evidence which points towards the claim.Over the years many people have claimed they could do better, but none of those people have turned their confident remarks into a viable business. This tells us there's probably a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about around and that it's a bit more complicated than it looks. The claim here is that an excellent station should be sold much cheaper than they currently are, so it's up to the claimant to prove this. Just adding up the component costs isn't really enough for that.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 10:34:35 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 09:55:09 pmThen don't buy one.Use some cheaper variant or substitute if that fits your situation's needs.To essentially suggest that every soldering station can be replaced by a TS and wondering why there are any other units still available seems silly to me. If some lower cost solution works for you in a given situation, great, but to suggest that there is no difference in usability, longevity of the unit itself and consumables, productivity due to speed and reliability in operation, etc., day in and day out, between a good, professional station from one of the major manufacturers and the inexpensive alternatives is simply delusional.if thereQuote from: Mr. Scram on October 27, 2018, 09:05:17 pmIndeed. It would be great (especially for the hobbyist) if there were an ultra-low-cost true competitor to the professional stations but the current inexpensive ones just simply aren't as "good" in various ways for high-end use. The fact that this is so points to it being a bit more difficult to dorightthan many people seem to think.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 11:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 27, 2018, 10:33:58 pmThis is not a variable controlled by the loop, is it?QuoteNo. It's now the straw-man argument combined with the no-true-Scotsman argument.First, I didn't say anywhere that it is a PID loop. So you're refuting a straw man. Second, the suggestion that I am perhaps a mongrel PID tuner does not negate the fact at least one soldering station from a reputable manufacturer contain in fact one control loop with just one variable: temperature. 'Cuz of course no true PID tuner would say that.QuoteI showed that the TS-100 and the TS-80 are pretty decent soldering irons for a fraction of the price of the reputable ones. So yes, those confident remarks are making a lot of money right now.QuoteAd hominemagain. But no problemo, take one of those stations, dismantle, reverse-engineer, or study it, like I did, and disprove what I said.I'll be the first to gladly say goodbye to 300 of my bucks just to get my hands on one of those.QuoteI've done that, but what strikes me most is that my arguments for defending a lower retail price are being resisted by a consumer. Unless you are obviously a manufacturer.QuoteIf that's just what I was considering, I would advocate for an even lower price.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 11:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on October 27, 2018, 10:34:35 pmI don't.QuoteI said none of that. I said that the TS proves that soldering stations are overpriced.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 11:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 27, 2018, 11:28:29 pmIt seems you're just here to argue and I have zero interest in that. Your attempts to frame me and my words are not appreciated and will go ignored from here on out. Please resist the urge to peel apart posts into single line quotes, as it makes things hard to read and is generally considered bad form.Please provide reasonable evidence that good soldering stations could be brought to market for a significantly lower price or hold your peace. Considering the large amounts of tinkering many people do and need to do to their TS-100 and TS-80 irons, those examples seem to support the notions that building a good soldering iron isn't trivial. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 11:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 27, 2018, 09:05:17 pmHeating a mass with an unknown energy leakage is a very old problem and without knowing the energy leakage in advance there is not much more you can do then create a control loop which is border line stable in the worst case scenario. There is no much magic to it because you have to adhere to the laws of thermodynamics. And like I wrote many times before: the magic isn't in the soldering station or the iron but it is all in the tips. The temperature control doesn't need to be precise at all.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 01:58:20 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 27, 2018, 11:43:03 pmWell, I'm sorry to read that. I expected that you could provide a proof that the expensive soldering stations are really worth their price. I had high hopes that you could help me be less the tightwad that I am.As for the attempts to frame your words in single-line quotes, that may come from my programming background. Or perhaps from my propensity to engage in socratic inquiries (that behavior did no good for Socrates' health).Anyway. No hard feelings man.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 02:11:56 am
content: bsfeechannel:A lot of YES and I agree and a lot of NO :-)The 1701 wasn't a expensive cheap, they not used it because, I think, exists two reasons. At one side many people thinks ever, "some discrete circuit that I had designed works better than a circuit designed by experts". In some cases (a genius designer) this it's true, in rest of cases the designer not know all that he need to be solved. At other side, sometimes the cloner knows that have to do but need to cut costs and do the copy with elements with inferior quality.But the 1707 never was the problem or the virtue. Quality of the handle heater sensor and tips was the virtue, I think almost 90% of it. Clones haven't thatThink in swords or knives. All are made of steel, but les than 1% differences in metal composition and a lot of difference in fabrication process make a huge difference between an original Katana or an one for ornament. Somebody can think that make swords are easy and think that katana are overpriced and they are not worth what they cost. Then cut some fancy shaped steel, some sort of sharpen and for sure the sword cut an apple and a slice of bread, but....Mr. Scram have part of reason in this discusssión a part you and other nctnico.Formally this problem has one only magnitud measured, Temperature. But this it's only in apparience. When the solder iron it's on air the PID works OK and the temperature it's perfectly stable. It's a simple problem with a simple solution. Every circuit made by any hobist with analog approach or a fancy microcontroller works perfect.The problem begins when the iron touch any object, then the thermal mass varies and thermodynamics play against you. You not know how the mass changes, nor the change ratio, nor the total mass. To add a problem mases are in different state and part are draining heat linearly and the solder are changing state and at some point receive heat without change temperature. And the masses aren't at thermal equilibrium, the solder near the tip it's hottest than mass at base material and rapidly changing (this it's desirable and speed depends in contact surface between the tip and material, quality of the tip and total power transferred per unit time).The only way to estimate the change of mass it's evaluate the difference between the expected temperature drop when I apply some energy when the PID works and the real drop when that mass are changing.The PID algorithm not work because the parameters were fixed in a constant mass situation and if the microcontroller dynamically adjust the PID parameters or not have the time to do that properly or if did, it do slowly.With old system with a heater with interchangeable tips, the information arrives very slow because when the thermal transference arrives to the sensor the tip has a very different temperature. The temperature at tip only it's equal to the sensor in equilibrium and the PID algorithm at solder station not knows that really happens in the solder point. Have a good sensor with a better thermal transfer make a better control even with the same algorithm.In "new"cartridge system, the sensor it's nearest the solder point and the solder station has better information all the time improving. But different algorithms have a better or worst response when the temperature changes and PID fails. And this it's ALL in a profesional solder station. If your iron takes 15 seconds to stabilize the temperature you can solder less components that somebody with same skills that uses a solder station that only takes 2 seconds to recover. Probably the heat was better transfer and the results are better than in a crap one.For example T12 clones cartridges have a very inferior response and thermal transfer it's far from be the same in all points of same shape (sometimes the heater it's of less power). The sensor reacts slowly and the result it's poorer. If you test a T12 clon with a original T12 you see a better behaviour compared to a clone. But big brands do the home work and program better algorithms in the zone that PID fails obtaining a better response in general.Conclusion, the dynamic problem when you solder it's not so easy than control the temperature of the aquarium or an oven, and quality and algorithms matter more than some people think.But off course, all solder some resistors to the PCB in the same way that fake katanas slice bread or apples.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 04:29:25 am
content: Of course. An ideal system would have the heating element and the temperature sensor dipped in the molten solder. I said that the tip (i.e. the tip itself + the heating element + temp sensor) has room for improvement in a previous post. You have to model the tip and the thermal mass of the typical applications you intend to solder, and include that in the calculations of your control loop. But that's it. An aquarium or an oven may be ridiculously simple. But a soldering iron is not rocket science nevertheless.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 04:52:58 am
content: bsfeechannel:Me again, you claim that you came from the programming side of world, I understand you. I'm came from the physics side and I program for life and make circuit for research at university and for hobby at home. Probably you are more impressed for the UI in the TS100 than in the real response of this gadget in real situations. Solder some SMD and some TH components isn't near of real use to a solder station.Solder thousands of components per day and some of it in massive GND planes or connectors in really big copper bars and you notice that your TS100 (or compatibles) get unusable one hour after you put in use and the time to real recover from a sleeping state or a big component it's unacceptable. Their less than 30 watts in a T12 clone are not enough for a energy hungry solder union. they are not ESD safe and some variants of this clones fails when the tip is grounded. Yes they can be fixed but the point is that designer miss that or knows that it's not possible under the cheap design.Can a TS100 or some other clon with similar circuit do the work? YES, under certain conditions, for example as a field iron in my small travel pouch, and for it it's really ok and amazing. But I think that it's expensive compared with it performance. A TS100 with a really good power source and an excellent iron base (to be fair with the comparison) cost more than a "small percentage" of a good solder station and a lot more than a order of magnitud less (10x less), cost more than a half of a Hakko 951 from which borrowed/stole the cartridge technology that it use.Can I use a iron controlled by a PWM from a laptop switching power to solder a $200 CO2 laboratory Sensor VERY sensitive to noise and ESD? NEVER! It's a crazy assumption! PWM on a DC source it's a very fatal source of noise and most of switching AC-DC power sources has a connection between mains and GND, put in with a lot of care in am oscilloscope and then talk to me what you see. Medical switching power source and really isolate power sources have no connection with mains, but cost more than a very good solder station!.Can I use some clone to solder an RCA in field? Yes, off course! Connected to the car battery and that its marvelous. Thumbs up!Remember fake Katanas can be slice bread and apples too, you don't need a real katana to do that. But that not convert a fake katana in a real one!

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 05:20:24 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on October 28, 2018, 04:29:25 amYes, but the only solution near that was developed by the companies that you reject. All the T12 clones are possible because Hakko develop a system that can be copy without invert a penny. Hakko or Pace or JBC copies each other? Maybe, but they developed different system with different capabilities. All the clones that people thing that do cheap than big brands only stole and copy the works from other companies. They only objetive it's do cheapest and not I&D and not quality to the last detail.QuoteNOP! Not exist to a Solder Station a "Typical Application", one second it's soldering the tiniest SMD and next second it's solder a huge connector to a huge GND. That's the motive because clones not do the job and can't be compared with real solder stations. With last models isn't a problem of "control temperature", it's a problem of control heat transfer or better, energy transfer!.Transfer all the energy that you can but in a form that when you lift the tip off the circuit you do not have a jump in the set temperature either.. A PID algorithm only stabilizes a measured magnitude against a series of knowed environment, in this case/problem, software need to imagine the environment to do like a pro and for that needs a good quality sensor and heater. If not, it's only a constant temperature controller in the equilibrium like and old fashioned solder station.QuoteOff course that it's not rocket science, nor is it a problem as simple as most imagine, but believe me that any serious company (or rocket company) will not rely in this clones. They knows that not all the hammers are equal, and then invert in good tools not because they have the money, indeed because the test it and see that are betters tools.Off course that it's not rocket science, nor is it a problem as simple as most imagine, but believe me that any serious company will not rely in this clones. They knows that not all the hammers are equal, then invert in good tools, not because they have the money, indeed because the test it and see that are betters tools.If you came from the programmers side knows that and you applies every day. You use as computer a cheap Bangood computer that claims the same specs (or better) than a computer from a reputable brand that cost 5x more? which computer uses you? Which Cell Phone? Which Car? The engine of a car is not rocket science either and yet they are not all the same, are they?

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 06:57:11 am
content: Quote from: Tarloth on October 28, 2018, 05:20:24 amThe fact that ISRO(Indian Space Research Organization) uses JBC Nano extensively, made me buy JBC. Please note that unlike European/American counterparts, ISRO is known to be very frugal would make every cent count.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 09:12:03 am
content: Quote from: Tarloth on October 28, 2018, 05:20:24 amThat's a typical application.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2018, 09:15:11 am
content: Quote from: kaevee on October 28, 2018, 06:57:11 amAnd that's the proof that the JBC is not overpriced.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 12:00:01 am
content: (No offense intended at all, only pure amusement.) The title of this thread reminded me of one of my favorite memes,How is Babby Formed? If you don't know it, you should!!

author: niner_007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2018, 08:18:02 am
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 26, 2018, 08:44:30 pmTheir marketing or history from 100 years ago does not matter *today*, and does not somehow magically translates in superior products over time, whether you believe it or not. Look at Ford. What matters today is their current or recent product lines, they are easily one of the best or the best, how do I know? I own their 4 tools stations, the hot air station, the tweezers etc it always just works, on any kind of job, and, did you check their selection of cartridges?https://www.jbctools.com/pdf/brochures/Quick_Cart_A3_.pdf

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 01:23:28 am
content: In a capitalist economy, everything is offered in premium versions. You can buy a spoons and forks for $1000.00 each.The difference? The guy that buys $1000 spoons doesn't think they're better at getting food into your mouth than a $.50 cent spoon. Nor would he take to the internet to defend his choice of silverware.If/when this guy says his spoon works better because it of subjective things, like the soup slurps better out of the spoon and to his mouth, you would probably ignore him for a fool. If he says he likes it and can afford it, he wins.Problem is that many people "defend" their choice of (expensive) station with nothing but subjective, unscientific criteria. Or worse, they repeat the marketing wank without realizing what it means. To some extent it depends on what you're doing with it. If you have high thermal load soldering of exotic alloys with lead free, then you might need a thousand dollar station with 120+ watts and nitrogen delivery system. But it might not make any difference if you're soldering 2 layer boards with lead solder.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 04:36:36 am
content: I NOT agree and I did explain in previous post in, I confess, my very bad english the reasons why not all is the same and I can support it with equations. But this is simpler than this. I did use any of the clones that I saw in my life and were ok for solder a SMD resistor but ALL fail when compared to good stations in something more challenging. I said this, every knife crap can slice a piece of bread but this not convert it in a Katana replacement.I ask then why choose the car that for sure you use and not a bad copy? I ask this to the people that claims that a 12 dollars clon can do the SAME job than a 200 dollars solder station: Which car they bought? Which cellphone? Which house and which appliances? Why not live in the worst part of the city if after all it's the same planet? They answered : Because it's better" They have not any problem to recognize that they bought other articles and did pay more for them because are better, but not ask about the oscilloscope or the solder station because the devil become present!In test videos published by these clone's fans I can see always the same, people excited with his acquisition claims that the gadget "do the job perfectly" and the copy took 10 to 20 seconds to heat the mass of a massive GND meanwhile the "expensive for nothing" did the same job in less than two seconds and even with less work temperature setted. But all of them fascinated with animations in the fancy OLED of the thing and deprecating the "useless" UI of the professional tool. They did show the iron playing tetris but can't use it to soldering for more than an hour because the handle becomes too hot. They claims that the iron it's of remarkable quality because warm in 15 seconds. What?All it's a nonsense.Somebody loves his compatible T12 or something similar and he believe that did a better and smarter acquisition than the fellows that buy a certified station? FANTASTIC, it's ok for you if it works under your use and forget about all the serious electronic factories or shops that buy the "other" equipment and use it for twenty years without an issue. Seriously you think that all of these people and factories, shops and laboratories are idiots and somebody buying something in a page that sell cheap crap without a single real certification it's smart than then?I buy all the time crap in internet but I Know that it's crap! If I need to do a special task with a special screwdriver one time and never more perhaps I buy a single use screwdriver in bangood and get happy if the screwdriver survives for one more battle. But if need to work all the time with the screwdriver I buy a reputable one and use it for months or years. It's cheaper, The Total Ownership Cost it's much lower than with single use and probably the cheap one scratch my special screws and the good one not.But we are talking of solder stations and not ridiculous spoons. All internet videos shown like a professional solder station surpases any clon, but the youtuber claims "It's unfair comparison, this clon cost a fraction of the real one". OFF COURSE! Cost more because have a better design, better components, accomplish international normative to solder delicate IC's and last for years or decades. But this is not a problem they says, put the working temperature 50 degrees up and work like a charm WTF? for that I continues using my 30 years old Goot iron without control and fries the first small component that I intend to solder.My FX888D do better (much better) job that a T100 buyed by a friend and cost the same money and uses technology from decades ago! But he need an iron to repair boards in the field and it's happy with his iron. I will like a better solder station than mine, but the 888 works and I have not the money for a new one. This is not a question of show expensive luxury nonsense gadgets like you talked about, this is a question of better general tools that work better than others under certain conditions.If somebody negate that something that every decent workshop choose not for throw money away it's better for the job than the chinese gadget that he buy then it's a perspective problem or better a fanaticism problem.if someone who has already walked the road and, in his time, tried cheap things until they arrive to the current tool from a reputable brand that knows about soldering things, tells you that really the article is worth what it costs and you do not believe and think that all those who use their tools daily are fools who decided throw your money away, then there is nothing else to talk about. With religious fanatics I do not argue, I avoid them.This conversation already seems a discussion with those who think that the earth is flat. It is useless to say anything because they presuppose to be owners of the only revealed truth. They argue that scientific arguments are bullshit but not know science and every sparkly forum contains the real truth.(I understand now why the discussions about this clones plagued all the forums)Sorry If I was rude, it's difficult to me to be polite because I not mastered english.

author: Calambres
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 08:58:13 am
content: FWIW: I've been using JBC soldering irons since the early '70s and they've always been a very good piece of gear.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 09:37:54 am
content: QuoteYou disagree with me, but you are making too many assumptions. There's a point where a tool is "good enough for [insert job]." A katana is not better than a knife when you need to do knife things. And if all you do are knife things, then you have no use for a katana other than the satifaction of owning it... just in case you need to katana something. This is a terrible analogy, BTW. Of the people have a kitchen full of expensive knives and could afford multiple katanas, maybe 0.0001% of them actually buy a katana.QuoteI personally have 3 888's and I think they're good enough for what I do. I don't have a JBC or a Metcal, because I have no need nor desire for one. I can afford it; I don't want it. The day a katana saves me time or effort or makes me money, then I'll shop for one. Just in the last hour before this post, I soldered 120 0.5mm pitch FPC connectors. And I did not use solderwick, not even once. How's a JBC gonna do that any better? In fact, neither JBC nor Weller nor Ersa nor Metcal make the kind of tip I favor for this. I could have had these connectors populated in a factory in China for around 30 cents in my needed quantity, but heck, I had the time, and it is easy enough (I even used 0.062" thick solder, lol). It's that easy, if you have the right iron and tip (and stereomicroscope and knowhow).What I was trying to convey is that many folks miss the point of the expensiver station. As OP stated, Dave makes a totally ridiculous test in one of his vids and he personally believes that the JBC performed better in this test due to superior PID algorithms and microcontrollers and power circuitry or whatever other hoohaw you want to imagine, when the test was actually invalid (irons not calibrated/measured) and his conclusions (regarding the slow blink vs fast on/off) were not logical. It is obvious that personal bias was at hand, IMO.To be fair on the clones - I have never used a TS100 with the fancy OLED and instruction manual to navigate the little 2 button interface, but I have plenty of experience with the T12 clones that are the hot stuff, lately. And the T12 irons are better in at least a couple aspects compared to a genuine 888. They can have a faster warm up time, and they also can also sustain greater output without heating up the handpiece (this is the main advantage, AFAIK, regarding the T12 cartridge vs the 888). This latter bit doesn't matter to me, at this point in my life. I don't do production work on multilayer boards. The actual "thermal drop" performance of my T12 clones was no better (measurably a bit worse) than my genuine 888. The T12 FM2028 handpiece also has a shorter tip to grip (but I solder much better with the 888; personal preference and/or experience, maybe).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 10:55:55 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 01, 2018, 09:37:54 amBoth tools work. But with more expensive tool like JBC you can increase productivity. Up to you to decide what is more important. Sometimes 20% difference in production speed makes a difference between gaining profits or loosing money.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 11:14:44 am
content: QuoteNope. For specific things, said station will increase productivity. If you are soldering 1000 lug nuts a day, then heck yeah. For other specific things, it can be worse, if it doesn't have the tips you need for said task. For most things that most soldering iron owners need, it may make no difference one way or the other.This is like saying a $500.00 Fluke is better than a $10.00 pen meter. Yeah, it can do more things. But if you do a lot of troubleshooting on low voltage circuitry, the $10.00 pen meter can be way faster and handier for your needs. I use a cheap pen meter roughly 1000x more often than a full featured DMM or scope for that matter. I'd part with my Fluke before my pen meter.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 11:49:42 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 01, 2018, 11:14:44 amFor one off jobs it can greatly increase productivity as well. Say you need to solder a part when repairing something. You switch on your Hakko 888D, wait a minute, only then solder. Or switch on JBC or Ersa I-CON, wait 10 seconds and solder. As I said, whatever it matters to you. For me it does. Also there are some thermally challenging jobs where cheaper stations simply suck.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 01:02:18 pm
content: I agree with wraper, but as I said, in the field probably it's more practical a clone working with the car battery than a JBC with a UPS. But we can't say "Solder Stations are overpriced and not worth the value" or "My 20 dollars T12 clone it's the SAME that a FX-951". Not, this is not true. In my first message I did say that if you have a crap knife you can do simple tasks but that the crap knife had did this things not convert magically it into a professional tool. Every chef that I know has his own knives and cost a lot of money. Can they use a simple kitchen knife? Yes, off course, but when you work every day all day you need better tools. After this, if some chef buy a gold plated one instead of regular one, this is matter of exhibitionism or fashion and I agree that is silly.I have some cheap meters and have a fancy Keysight with oled screen. I did buy it not for exhibitionism, I need in my desk a calibrated and reliable multimeter to calibrate sensors and send regularly to Keysight for control. But if I go to the field under the sun the screen it's unreadable, but I not did buy it for that task and wasn't designed for that. I did buy it for work in my desk with precision and a lot of readings for second. For measure an AC board I use a simple Unit meter that I compare regularly against my calibrated meter, but this not convert my $20 Unit multimeter in a Fluke or permit me told that Fluke good meters not worth his cost and are overpriced. Only my keysight fuses cost more than the entire Unit multimeter! But I blow up some cheap multimeters and never blow up a fluke or keysight.In my hakkos never have a problem with a hot handle even if I work 8 hours, never had a problem with this brand to be precise. In clones I see a lot of problems even under amateur use. And it's ok, I agree, the T12 system it's better designed the heater system and ergonomis, because that I'm buying this system now. But if Hakko and other brands not would did inverted in R&D in pursuit of better soldering experience, chinese seller would continue selling 936 copies like in the last 30 years.Good tools worth the money that it cost, nobody buy something that he not need, but I repeat, if somebody needs only to solder something not challenging, fantastic, buy exactly that he need but It's silly believe or said that the rest of tools not worth the cost and have no differences between a poor clone and the copied tool.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 05:09:16 pm
content: QuoteI have noticed the same thing. I have used 2 different 936 clones, and the handle gets hotter than the genuine 888. The generic sub $30.00 one got uncomfortably hot after a few minutes of just sitting in the stand not doing anything.I have noticed my genuine 888 getting hot only when doing relatively heavy thermal mass production work, which involved soldering the same thing many times in rapid succession. The T12 (clone) irons did not "break a sweat" in the same scenario. When I first switched back to my 888, I manage to put a blister on my index finger before I noticed the contrast.*That said, for most of what I use it for, the 888 is perfectly fine. I would suspect most owners or a soldering station for EE type stuff will not exceed the limitations of the 888. IOW, for many people, there is no functional difference between a "better iron" and the 888, other than quick change tips and/or ergonomics, faster warm up time. And tip selection. Yet the first and only thing many people think of is "thermal transfer" and "temp stability" and "fast response." Which may be true enough to put in a marketing brochure, but which may be making no functional difference in 99% of the soldering they actually do.QuoteThe 936 clones are still selling, and I think they will continue to sell for at least another 20 years.*Notice that the thermal response and power output were just fine. I did not have to crank the temp setting up from the normal temps, which according to an iron temp tester is around 310-320C. It's just that the cartridges are better at not heating the handle along with the tip. On my clone irons, I have to use a bit higher set temp for the same jobs, due to worse temperature gradient. I would not be surprised if the genuine 951 performs a bit better in this regard. But OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't. Also notice that 320C is lower than the lowest 600 series Metcal tips run at. Sure, you can purportedly solder a lugnut to your welding table with the Metcal without breaking a sweat. But if you don't do those things, then you won't experience the improvement, in that regard.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 05:52:05 pm
content: I buyed a used 951 base and buyed original T12 tips, for use it, in a while I will make a DIY handle (with esd safe wire and handle) until I have the money to buy the original one. When I will put to work together I can confirm or not if the thermal gradient it's better :-) . That can I confirm is that if you put original tips in a clone T12 station the iron work much much better, but some times the power source or components inside blow up early. Most of the compatible T12 that I did measured have almost double of resistance and then much less power at same source voltage. When an original tip it's used the PCB need to delivers almost the double of current.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 06:24:01 pm
content: In many discussions about "expensive" tools, people get sidetracked by comparisons with luxury goods, but this is areallyirrelevant comparison. Luxury products are Veblen goods: their value is exclusivity. Objective qualities are not the reason that Hermès Birkin bags cost $20,000: they simply send a signal that the owner has the wherewithal to own it, as opposed to those who don't. Moreover, they send a signal that the owner places value on fashion and all it entails to the degree that they choose to spend it on bags instead of other things. You can indeed come up with subjective reasons that you prefer exclusive things to common things, but this is just a personal preference and not a thing that can be proven with argument. Some people prefer to eat with silverware, and others prefer steel cutlery. One is not objectively better, even though silver costs more.For "expensive" tools, it is completely different. The cost difference between a JBC and a Yihua is because of objective factors. While it's still true that JBC owners must have wherewithal not required to purchase a Yihua, they don't choose a tool in order to send a signal. There are objective differences they identify as important to their work. Some things are still influenced by preferences, like the way ergonomics is related to working style, but the main differentiator is performance according to a relevant, objective standard.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 07:01:34 pm
content: ^ I partially agree with that, Helius. But I think there's more to it. We are susceptible to marketing and peer pressure. And as Douglas Adams stated in the 80s, humans are peculiarly fascinated with digital soldering irons. I'm sure many users of JBC are benefitting from some of the features. I'm sure there are others who just want w/e "the best" happens to be by concensus of peers. They might not even realize they are slicing bread with a katana... where something cheaper might perform exactly as good or maybe better. But if they enjoy their "gold spoon," that's their perogative.QuoteThe size of the market is one large reason the JBC costs so much. If it were actually significantly better to the vast majority of the soldering market, it could be manufactured, marketed, and distributed at a much lower cost. The JBC can't compete with the market share giants. It is (presumably) a profitable company by targeting a niche market willing/needing to pay the premium for the inefficient/expensive sourcing and manufacturing.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 07:43:53 pm
content: Yes, the objective reasons I referred to are more than just performance, and include market realities as well. But as far as I know, it hasn't been shown thatQuoteIs the investment that would be required a productive use of capital? If not, it would explain why we don't see "high-end" companies being undercut with equal performance products. In the cases where companies are trying to provide greater value, that's commendable and they should be supported by word of mouth, but you can't simply will these things into existence. As the saying goes, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 07:45:26 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 01, 2018, 07:01:34 pmI have certainly noticed that obsession in this and other threads.Is thattheDouglas Adams of Hitchhiker's Guide fame? Did he really write or say that? He was a smart guy...Would you have a reference?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 07:53:05 pm
content: ^It is the in prologue ofthe Hitchkiker's Guide, if I recall correctly. It is part of the book/story, probably page 1 or 2, methinks.QuoteIt's simple matter of scale. Customs parts and plastics* are almost free in high quantities. And very very expensive in lower quantities. JBC can't "invest" their costs down, unless they have a way to sell the extra hundreds of thousands of parts they bought to reduce their sourcing cost.Festool doesn't charge you an arm and a leg to fix/maintain their products because their executives are rolling around in piles of cash and cocaine and laughing all the way to the bank. Festool voids your warranty for using a non-Festool blade or sanding disc in one of their products because that's the only way they can sustain their business, profitably. Not to mention cost of labor in Spain or Germany vs China.*The cost of injection molded plastics is down to 3 things. First is the die. A small die might cost 5K to 15K to design and have machined. But that's not the end. You also pay for the setup when the manufacturer puts it on the line and sets up for a run of your part. Then you also pay for the amount of time it is on the line, making the parts. So if you make a bigger die that can do 10 of 20 or umpteen pieces at a time vs 1 or 2, you can potentially save money. But that die, like Hakko/Weller might use to make their handpieces and enclosures might cost in the neighberhood of 50K or more, and got knows how many dies they need for one station. And if you don't use enough to keep this die on the line for enough time, then it doesn't even bring the cost down, because it doesn't save the manufacturer any money to spend several hours to install your dies and setup your run to only do run it a few hours and then dismantle and setup the next job. The cost of the actual plastic is the least of your worries until your volume gets up there. You could buy a model T for 500 bucks, because of the efficiency of the assembly line. You can't take Ford's assembly line and change it to make vacuum cleaners one day and cars the other. It's expensive.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 07:58:11 pm
content: I think you are referring to his reference todigital watchesin the Hitchhikers guide...“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.”

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 08:01:56 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 01, 2018, 07:53:05 pmHmm, couldn't find anything... He does have something to say about digital watches though, which are (were?) kind of in the same category of nerdware.Edit: Ah, Gyro beat me to it (and had a PDF which, different from my version, actually allows you to copy from it, it seems...)

author: eb4fbz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 08:03:02 pm
content: I learned the art of soldering back in the 90's using my father's 30W JBC soldering iron. It was similar to the actual 30S model (25W) but had no earth connection and a less colorful orange handpiece. He bought it in 1983. Where is the bullshit?They were just unknown outside Spain in those days. I still use JBC stations nowadays (AD2200, TE5000 and AM6800) and find them great for my hobby and professional works. Also tried Weller, Hakko, Aoyue...

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 10:35:58 pm
content: This video is a good illustration of niche high end tools being expensive. If more than 0.1% of the population had a good use for a 5 axis milling machine, there would be a ready made version that is much cheaper than this thing.And it is an example of using said tool to do something you could do even better with cheaper tools. Using a lathe and an endmill would take 1/50th of the setup time and 1/10th the time per unit by just boring out a nut. But by gosh this man enjoys his golden spoon.The AvE subs, gosh knows what AvE is thinking with his latest endeavor. I hope anything good comes out of it, because it's hard to imagine anyone spending the time and effort and $$ designing and building machines needing a crazy expensive 5 axis milling machine.... and wanting to make it public property.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2018, 10:55:33 pm
content: The utilization of a 5-axis mill is kind of interesting, but I was genuinely surprised when I saw the ending. It's a part for a gas-powered hand drill??? Wat.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 05:30:15 am
content: I think it's called nitro? Super high octane juice for RC planes and helicopters? W/e it runs on, it is super bad-ass (if it actualy works!).

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 06:13:09 am
content: KL27X:I wrote a large message and did delete it. I did believe that I understand you but I doubt now.* JBC, Ersa, Hakko, Pace, Metcal, etc have possibly higher cost than a massive product? Yes, I think so too, but which is the point? Buy this units and no chinese clones with stolen technology and all of us would be beneficiate with lower costs.* Chinese clones have the same quality of the solder stations of the previous brands? NO, a big and rotund NO and it's a fact and if somebody argue this please compare quality and performance of both units. If somebody think that are comparable then probably was be a fanatic that need validate his buy to feels smart.* Chinese clones can solder electronic components? OFF COURSE! If not they not sell nothing. The solder union it's OK? Yes, I suppouse that are ok in the most of cases.* Price difference between a clone and a reputable tool it's only the scale down prices? No, most of the price difference came from the low quality components, inexistence of R&D department, Inexistence of safety regulations, lack of warranty and a long list of missing features.* All the missing quality in crap irons are camouflaged by an nice OLED with nice graphics? Yes, most of them uses a UI to atract the public that buy cell phones but not tools. Instead of real performance they have dancing bananas.I'm left out of this discusion, If somebody can't see that exist grades in tools and a poor tool it's not the replacement of a good one only because he not use the missing features, then I can't arguee nothing more.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 06:31:48 am
content: Quote from: helius on November 01, 2018, 06:24:01 pmWhen I was in high school, all the rich kids had programmable HP calculators. Programmable calculators were rare at the time. I had a Casio. Casios were non programmable toy-like cheap calculators.When I went to college, the first thing I did was to buy a programmable HP calculator. All the rich guys had programmable Casio pocket computers with integrated graph printers.No need to say that no course in high school or college demanded programmable calculators, much less graph-plotting ones.That taught me a lesson. Even when it comes to tools, exclusivity is also a value. And tool manufacturers know how to explore that.You can extol the technical qualities of those calculators until the cows come home, but the fact is that calcs are a commodity and, for general use, a $15 Casio will do more than enough.QuoteThe objective factors that make the difference in cost between a JBC and a Yihua have nothing to do with technology, which is essentially the same bread and butter temperature control we see anywhere. And certainly not with economies of scale. You can produce things in small quantities for relatively low cost these days.The ad posted bytsmanhas all the answers. JBC is aimed at "electronics professionals". This means that JBC will be chosen if their price is less than the problem that they solve. Because that is how professionals evaluate their purchases. If JBCs solve a $1000 a year to a pro, they will be priced at $900. Even if they cost $90 to produce.The emphasis on how long they're in business is also aimed at professionals. Especially corporations don't like to buy from entrants, but from well established companies like themselves.Lastly the "strong commitment to innovation from R&D department" means that if you are a big corpo with a prospective big buying potential, they're happy to develop a custom solution for you. The cost of that "R&D department" will be included in the price, even if you are not the direct beneficiary.So if you are a hobbyist, a home gamer or even a business that do not have a problem that costs more than a JBC, there is no point in acquiring one, unless other non objective factors come into play like exclusivity, taste, etc.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 07:55:35 pm
content: QuoteI disagree with this statement, quite a bit.As you have stated, the electronics is cheap. The higher the quantity you purchase/contract, the lower the cost, but it is still fairly cheap to make a run of even 10 rigid PCB, these days. This is not the case for plastic parts. This is why many niche products may utilize "luxury upgrade" of machined/extruded aluminum bits and enclosures. At the quantities they are buying, aluminum is more comparable in cost, possibly even cheaper. As compared to PCB manufacture, the curve is way bigger and the quantities way higher for injection molded plastics.If you have ever tried to buy an enclosure for your low volume projects, you may find yourself paying 10 or 20 bucks for just a generic plastic box. At the volumes that, say, Hakko 888 is produced, their cost for their custom enclosure might be a couple bucks. I am no expert in manufacturing, but I have some knowledge of the costs involved. They also probably contract enough custom transformers that they are cheaper than what you could buy off a shelf.I work with companies that use custom plastics. My brother has a business that uses injection molded plastic parts, and he has gone direct to Taiwan for manufacture, cutting out the middle men. The curve is very steep in this game. An example from just the other week, I'm tweaking PCB for a customer because the (tiny) housing costs him $40.00 per unit, 3-D printed with high quality plastic. If the PCB is a little smaller, it can be made on a smaller printer and reduce his cost. For this project, he isn't even close to being able to have these injection molded. A Festool tracksaw has housing that looks like a printer housing. The difference is the printer company sells a hundred thousand printers a year. Festool's cost for this hunk of plastic is pretty significant, I'm sure.Tarloth: I don't think I have made any strong claim that clones are as good as name brands. I'm comparing name brands to name brands. There are name brands that serve a huge market, and there are name brands that exists due to niche market that is willing to pay a premium. I use a genuine Hakko and genuine Hekko tips. I actually bought the T12 clones because I heard claims they were better than the "old tech" 888's/936's. And to be fair, I did find them better in some regards due to the cartridge tech, and I'm not ashamed to admit it where and when a $25.00 station outperforms my more expensive station. The improvements just don't matter that much to me. They will do the job, for sure. I expressly used only a T12 clone for 2 solid months, soldering thousands of components. And I could live with it, to be honest, but the 888 has more significant advantages for me.QuoteThis sounds good, but I bet 90% of JBC sales are to people that just like premium gear. Plenty of gearheads in every industry. JBC is a HP programmable calculator of sorts, to borrow your example. I would guess they're purchased and used more by designers than by soldering techs, just for an example. The guys doing the actual large volume soldering are the ones figuring their costs and productivity. And I bet they are not a large portion of JBC's market. In this market, the Metcal is probably more the status symbol of excellence. And Hakko probably leads the way in the bulk of the market, along with Weller and Pace. (Maybe Ersa in Europe).Fishing lure are purportedly designed to catch fish. But they also have to be designed to catch fisherman. There are tools in every industry that are successful because they appeal to "the fisherman," despite if they catch more fish or not. For most people, the differences between any of the stations mentioned in this thread will be relatively minor. They can choose the gold spoon or the plastic spork, and they can't really go wrong. Anyone that occasionally does high volume soldering, they may find the extra power or the right tip can make certain things go way faster/easier. I might be wrong, but I would put JBC into the "niche/boutique" category. Personally, I never heard of them until I saw Dave showing off his station.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 01:43:30 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 02, 2018, 07:55:35 pmYou seem to forget there are 195 countries in world and more than 7 Billion people live on this planet. The tax and duties on products vary a lot. I am one of those stupid gearheads who found out JBC cost less in India compared to Weller and more or less same as Hakko. We ended up buying JBC for our lab.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 01:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: kaevee on November 03, 2018, 01:43:30 amHahaha... Perhaps what he meant was 90% of the folks that visit this forum...In Brazil JBC is almost completely unknown. The professional market there is dominated by two local brands plus Weller and Hakko.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 02:19:44 pm
content: .

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 05:48:32 am
content: Hakko too took seconds to change the cartridge. I think that all brands that implement cartridge system has this feature.Es España se consiguen equipos en precio? Hay un mercado de usados o algo asi confiable? Tengo Hakko pero algún día me gustaría probar JBC, todo el mundo habla muy bien de esos equipos pero aqui en Argentina no existen, ni distribuidor ni importador. Saludos desde el sur!

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:34:42 am
content: .

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 07:01:32 pm
content: Thanks emece67! I buy hakko things in batterfly. A spanish friend in Valencia buy in batterfly too because the Hakko spanish representative never did answer us where to buy the hakko products (they not sell to individuals). Batterfly has excellent offers and free shipping to europe, but even that, a Hakko 951 cost about 280 euros. The only real advantage that I found in hakko vs JBC or others it's that it's ubiquitous, I can buy accesories in any place and even decide to use a crap clon point geometry if I need to use it once and nevermore. JBC or Pace not distributed here cartridges systems and that it's a pity. I didn't knew about wallapop but as you said, a lot of people are crazy when sell his used equipment and ask for 70% to 100% of a new one. Thanks for your answer

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 07:24:34 pm
content: Quote from: Nifty on October 25, 2018, 11:40:38 amIt's an old, very well established Spanish company still based in Spain. The real deal. I remember my first serious soldering iron purchased in 1983 or so, it was a JBC. And even for a simple, unregulated unit it ran circles around anything else i could find here.It's not a Telefunken or AEG like brand purchased by an importer of Chinese OEM stuff, but the real thing.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 08:04:08 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 02, 2018, 07:55:35 pmHow much is it to design and machine an injection mold? $10k? When I say small quantities, for a product like a soldering station, that will be 1000 units minimum. That means only $10 in the cost of manufacturing. Still "no see" a justification for such an exaggerated price.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 08:11:17 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 03, 2018, 01:57:17 pmAnd costs more than a small car:https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-1109988184-jbc-ferro-de-soldar-2se-profissional-220-v-100original-_JMGimme a break.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 08:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 04, 2018, 08:11:17 pmFYI importing it and selling to private person doubles the price because of insane taxes.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 04, 2018, 08:11:17 pmBrazilian pricing is rather oddball.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:55:05 pm
content: Certainly fueled by the solderphoolery we see around JBC. No doubt.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 11:00:03 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 04, 2018, 10:55:05 pmIt has nothing to do with JBC. Look for hakko or Keysight pricing in Brazil.https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-903260114-estacao-de-solda-hakko-digital-70w-fx-888d-original-nf-_JM888D costs $95 in US instead of $260.Or how about FX-951 for $650?https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-1091151138-estaco-de-solda-digital-75w-hakko-fx-951-original-nf-_JM

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 11:01:44 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 04, 2018, 10:55:05 pmIt has nothing to do with JCB and everything to do with the oddball taxing in Brazil. Please inform yourself before continuing to make a fool out of yourself. You're trying so hard to make reality fit your preconceived notions that you're completely ignoring facts and truth.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 11:35:56 pm
content: Here in Argentina things cost double or triple that cost in USA not matter what I buy

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 05:33:02 am
content: Quote from: Tarloth on November 04, 2018, 11:35:56 pmWeird, friends of mine brought back an on-demand water heater when they were on vacation there years ago because it was way, way cheaper than anything available around here. Actually, I'm not sure if it was made there or in Chile but it was from one of the two when they were down there.It doesn't quite meet the usual CSA standards but it was for an off-grid cabin on propane and always worked just fine, I was actually quite impressed with the performance when we first installed it. I'm not quite sure how they got it through customs but I guess that isn't quite as difficult with a one-off item when you're actually personally traveling with it at the time rather than shipping something.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 05:54:17 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 04, 2018, 11:01:44 pmJBC pricing is competitive in many countries compared to Weller/Hakko. It all boils down to taxes and duties and also any free trade agreements between countries. Probably the operating costs of sellers also matter. As I pointed out earlier, their price is pretty competitive in India. In fact, it was probably better than JBC street price in Europe.JBC have a pretty decent after sales support in India. Even though I bought directly from Spain, I was offered local support which includes return shipping to Spain at their own cost.No point in demonizing JBC for high prices. If one wants to blame someone for high price of JBC products, they should blame the governments of countries in question, who are setting the taxes and duties.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 07:54:54 am
content: Quote from: drussell on November 05, 2018, 05:33:02 amIt's possible,goods made here can be less expensive than things made in USA, but things made in rest of the world cost two or three times here. In propane the standards here are controlled by IRAM and most of times the standard agree with ISO/DIN standards, maybe not synchronized with the last version.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 01:43:54 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 04, 2018, 11:01:44 pmBut we are not comparing JBC prices in Brazil with other parts of the the world. Are we? JBC is comparatively more expensive than other brands in most of the world. Even in Spain, according to a local resident.QuoteI am not the subject of this thread. JBC is. So let's, please, keep on talking about JBC and its absurd price list. Thank you.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 02:00:16 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 01:43:54 pmYour logic makes miracles. You were so shocked about JBC pricing in Brazil, said it's because solder fools. Now you say we are not comparing prices in general with other parts of the the world. If we are not comparing them, why you were motioning Brazil to begin with? Any foreign equipment is more than 2 times more expensive there because of ridiculous taxes. Was your intention to say that because JBC costs over $1000in Brazil, JBC shall be blamed for it all over the world?QuoteAccording to you, because this thread is about JBC, your notions and arguments shall not be questioned. Simply splendid way of thinking.I shall mention that such thinking can be applied to just any other topic in the world.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 02:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 05, 2018, 02:00:16 pmOh dear. I was not shocked because JBC is more expensive in Brazil than in other parts of the world. Bugger that. I was shocked by how expensive it is in relation to other brands in Brazil, as you masterfully showed in a previous post of yours.I simply don't care how much things cost in Brazil in relation to other countries.QuoteNot the least bit. You can question my arguments at will. What you cannot do is attack me. You can, but then you'll have to create a new thread, because this one is about JBC, not me.Take this as an example: I said "You can produce things in small quantities for relatively low cost these days." To what KL27x replied "I disagree with this statement, quite a bit."Perfect! KL27x disagrees with mystatement. KL27x is not saying that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I do not truly know how to tweak a PID control loop, that I'm making a fool of myself, I, I, I. This kind of argument brings nothing to the table. KL27x, instead, exposed a lot of new information. I questioned again and, if KL27x hasn't already got bored by the path this discussion is tending to, I expect new meaningful information.Note that I didn't not do any of such attacks in response. Not even this post is doing that to you. Quite the opposite, I have invited those who attacked me personally to come up with proofs to debunk myclaims. The only thing I've heard up to now is the crickets chirping.So, please, let's get back to the topic, shall we?

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 02:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: kaevee on November 05, 2018, 05:54:17 amThat's not the issue. Back in the day, a good soldering iron was $10. Decades have passed and now a piss-poor iron is $100. For it to be considered good, it has to be sold at least two or three times that mark. The explanations given so far for this phenomenon (RD costs, import taxes, a supposedly intangible and complex technology) do not hold.So kudos to the OP for point out that the king is naked.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 03:16:43 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 02:48:26 pmI have shown that JBC is more expensive compared to elsewhere by about the same ratio as hakko. Or are you so ignorant to understand what taxes are and how do they work? Keep twisting what other people said.QuoteThere was no attack on you to begin with. There was attack on your agenda/arguments. If you cannot understand the difference, I'm sorry. Attack on you would be as if someone said something like that your arguments don't count because you are a flawed or terrible person in some way. Not questioning your argument but you as a person to discredit you.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 03:21:32 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 02:51:19 pm$10 iron now is way better than $10 iron back then. Not to say $100 buys you a good temperature controlled station now when in the past you could get a power controlled firestick at best. Even if we don't count inflation. There is something wrong with your memory.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 03:25:33 pm
content: No soldering station (for any money) from 30 years ago could even closely compete with current $200 soldering station. It's like complaining that 85" TVs are too expensive because you spent $200 on 21" CRT TV 30 years ago. Just go and buy $200 40" TV which is still way better than your old one.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 04:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 01:43:54 pmNo one has demonstrated JBC has an absurd price list. This whole thread is a fantasy. Please demonstrate your claims that soldering irons are unreasonably priced compared to those of decades ago or hold your peace.It would be good to note that you cannot keep insisting on fabricated "facts" without ending up being the subject of scrutiny sooner or later. Please reveal your stakes and interests.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 04:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 05, 2018, 03:21:32 pmBefore I completely lose my decrepit memory, let me tell you a story. Twenty years ago I had a similar discussion on a forum like this. That time I denounced how the prices of PCs were held artificially high by the extreme use of planned obsolescence, fueled mainly by Microsoft's marketing practices and its virtual monopoly.I was almost lynched.There were those who argued that without Microsoft, computers would not be as cheap as an air conditioner. Well computers were cheaper than air conditioners 20 years before that. So by that time, computers should be sold by much less.I understood that the gods had placed a Cassandra curse on me and forgot that.Microsoft was found guilty of abusive commercial practices, Apple was reborn from the ashes, Android became a thing, and now PCs cost exactly what I predicted.The same phenomenon is happening again: people defending abusive prices, and, despite all the proofs to the contrary, not heeding the prophet. Like in the Greek tragedies, it seems that I can't avoid my destiny.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 04:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 04:40:14 pmI don't need your story. What you tell contradicts actual facts, that's all. And that's what you are called out for.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 04:49:58 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 04:40:14 pmJBC is no Microsoft and has no monopoly over soldering stations or any other product they manufacture. They have solid competition from Weller, Hakko, Metcal, Pace, Ersa and many more!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 04:52:42 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 04:40:14 pmThere are no abusive prices. Just pay less and buy what fits your needs. If you talk about price comparison with computers, no normal people would buy 2 socket server (high end JBC) as their home desktop and then complain it's too expensive.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 05:13:38 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 04:40:14 pmWhere on the chart below can we see the pricing deviation you mention? It should show up as a noticeable bump or dip, rather than a smooth natural curve.People who find they can't argue facts often resort to less tangible matters in an attempt to support their claims. You're not cursed, you're just wrong. Please stick to the facts and present them accordingly. Also reveal your interests and stakes.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 05:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 05, 2018, 04:47:02 pmGood luck with your precious JBC. I'll use that money to buy a small car.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 05:52:35 pm
content: Quote from: kaevee on November 05, 2018, 04:49:58 pmAnd because they have solid competition, this means that JBC is not overpriced.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 06:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2018, 05:13:38 pmYou see the price in 1998, exactly 20 years ago? It is $1,119. Now it is $72,95. It should have been $72,95 back then. In fact I said a little more, around $200. So thank you for corroborating what I said. I was an eyewitness. I'm not lying.Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2018, 04:03:21 pmSo, if this is what you think about this thread, what are you doing here? Seriously.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 06:43:33 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 06:12:25 pmThe curve over the period of the supposed fraud subsequent correction is smooth, which indicates a natural process of evolving technology instead of manipulation. Not only do you not have evidence for your claims, the evidence there is directly contradicts your claims. You can't just pull a "it should have been X" out of your behind and call it an argument.We're here because garbage claims need to be called out for what they are. Don't expect people to leave you to your fabrications. The only question remaining is whether you're just bored and trying to get a rise out of people by insisting on nonsensical stories or whether you're trying to further your own interests by attempting to damage those of others.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 03:44:46 am
content: I don't even know who is arguing what over the last page. But,QuoteThis, Wraper, is a laugh riot!Soldering iron technology has changed a bit more than the hammer or crowbar in the last 30 years. But let's not get carried away. Just because we have "oooh cartridges" and "ooh LCD/OLED displays," does not mean they are incredibly better tools.There are most certainly more 30 year old 936's + more modern cousins in use today than all of JBC's lineup combined.If the JBC "THERMAL RESPONSE!!! WOOT" is so great, this explains why guys using JBC stations set their temp to 230C, rather than the 325 to 350 that 90% of the world not named Luis Rossman (who apparently keeps he pegged at 448C and throws away the keyLuv you Louis!) uses on their stations for most of their soldering. Oh, you CAN'T do that?Oh, Joe, don't tell me that's so. Please, tell us more about this amazing thermal response and why anyone should give a rat's behind about it, then? I can't wait to drop big bucks to upgrade from my B&W Zenith to a new shiny 80" OLED TV of soldering stations. A little more marketing wank, and my wallet will rip itself open. Maybe talk a little about the PID algorithms and the programmable settings.I can appreciate the work put into the software algorithms. To improve on certain areas of the soldering iron as we know it. But as an engineer, I can also roughly estimate exactly how big that improvement will be to the purpose of the tool. IOW, I can roughly estimate how many fucks I should actually give about that. And the answer is pretty close to zero.PID on my water heater prevents me from getting burned and saves me 30 dollars a year on my electricity bill. The PID on my soldering iron eliminates 90% of the overshoot. OK. If you removed 100% of it, I still wouldn't notice a difference in the performance.

author: aabbcc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 08:35:47 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 02:51:19 pmQuote from: bsfeechannel on November 05, 2018, 02:51:19 pmInflation, look it up.Also, you are plain wrong, a hakko fx888d can easily be had for less than 100usd and is a great soldering iron. Heck I even used a cheapo temp controlled from a local electronics store in sweden for soldering hundreds of modules for 3 years and that was 20 eur and worked just fine...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 10:27:17 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 06, 2018, 03:44:46 amAs if they could compete with current $200 station. They were good but not nearly as good. If we take Hakko FX-951 or Pace ADS200, do you really think those stations 30 years ago were just as good? Back then there were even barely any jobs at which such soldering stations really shined. Small solder joints on multilayer boards with huge thermal mass and lead free solder with higher melting temperature. TVs are just an example to show that if there is more expensive high end thing available on the market, it does not mean that you should compare it's with price of older technology and you get less for the same money.Yeah, and the main point was in what you excluded from the quote:Quote from: wraper on November 05, 2018, 03:25:33 pm

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 11:31:35 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2018, 06:43:33 pmYou see? That's your problem. You make your own assumptions and then struggle to understand things. Keep your mind open while I guide you through the path of enlightenment.The fact that the curve is natural doesn't mean it is not manipulated. See graph below.QuoteSuffering molds the character. I admire people who think like that.QuoteQuite the opposite. I'm incredibly busy. But I always find time to educate my fellow eevbloggers so that they don't fall prey to appearances.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 12:17:45 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 06, 2018, 03:44:46 amBy the emotional responses of my interlocutors, what is going on here is explained by psychology. When you buy something fancy and exclusive like the JBC soldering station, you expect others to congratulate you. But we are on an engineering forum, darn it. When some engineer shows you that what you have in your hands is devoid of that fanciness and exclusivity, a sense of, how could I say,--is cuckoldry too harsh?--permeates the mind. It's really difficult.I've seen this phenomenon a few times in my life and I myself suffered from it. It is not agreeable, but helps you grow up as a person and tell the really important from the superficial.

author: sstepane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 12:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 06, 2018, 12:17:45 pmIsn't it an assumption to call JBC "fancy and exclusive"? It's a tool. Arguably one of the best. And, as a result - one of the most expensive. That's it. And I have not felt like someone was expecting to be congratulated on owing one. On the contrary, many, who were not able to justify its price referred to Apple products.Just an observation.Does it also has anything to do with psychology?

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:58:41 pm
content: Yes. Absolutely. Read previous posts on this thread to see how tools can be turned into objects of desire. And Apple is a prime example of that.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 03:24:23 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 06, 2018, 03:44:46 amThis bit reminded me of this old discussion about normal operation temperature on Metcals - they have tips that run incredibly hot but nobody could exactly explain why, given they should have excellent thermal recovery according to their *cough* *cough* marketing material.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/metcal-soldering-irons-way-too-hot/msg953751/#msg953751

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 12:48:24 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 06, 2018, 11:31:35 amI must admit that the hand drawn chart is adorable. It's not evidence, though. The story unfortunately also doesn't hold up. Your story was that Microsoft had been artificially keeping computer prices high and that this was corrected later to a more realistic price. I intentionally picked a chart which covers the time period both before and after the supposed deceit so we'd be able to see the supposed price correction you're talking about. If your story checks out you'd expect to see a line which is too flat due to the alleged price fixing, only to be correctly in a much steeper drop in a relatively short time to finally end up as a natural curve. We see the exact opposite. The price was dropping steeply as a young technology was rapidly developing, slowing down and levelling out as it matures. The smooth curve indicates a natural process without any evidence of what you claim.Not that it matters though, because we're not discussing the historic prices of computer hardware. That's just a distraction. In fact, that discussion and ours are rather different in almost all ways except for one. A quick scan of the thread shows that in both cases you haven't provided much in the way of evidence to support the claims being made and certainly none which withstands any scrutiny. As you've kindly offered to enlighten and educate us, now would be the time to present your overwhelming evidence which convincingly proves soldering irons aren't realistically priced for the current market in a concise and coherent post. Such evidence would be presented along with solid external sources for the claims being made. A resounding absence of such post will inevitably lead the struggling visitors of this thread to conclude that there isn't a shred of truth to the story so bravely defended for so long. We're ready to be wowed.

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 06:01:27 pm
content: I'm just curious what industry source provided the numerical data for "what computer prices should be". A Google search came up with nothing relevant. Link?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 10:47:18 pm
content: Methinks, at this point, that if the mayhem, foolishness andcontinues, mayhap the thread should be locked.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 11:50:28 am
content: ^Looking at how the thread started, it's been amazingly drama-free.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 12:16:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 07, 2018, 12:48:24 amTotally agree. You decided to get distracted by that unimportant detail. My argument was about how people react when their pet product/technology/whatever is shown not to be that exclusive. Or when you show problems, flaws, etc.Wouldn't be nice if the JBC stations were sold by $50 instead of $300? To the rest of the world it would be. But I bet the ones, who gladly payed $300 thinking they were getting something that other brands could not offer, will feel a little uncomfortable, to say the least.Back in the day I asked, in other words, the same. Wouldn't be nice if, instead of $1000+, we payed just $200? Aren't PCs overpriced? Time showed they were.

author: sstepane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 12:29:06 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 08, 2018, 12:16:10 pmWhy not pay then to engineers and programmers and researchers half, or even quarter of their salary as they never work hard and do not lift anything heavy?What a shallow thinking.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 12:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 08, 2018, 12:16:10 pmWouldn't be nice if you were not paid for your work and gave away everything to other people for free? If JBC would cost $50 then anything else beside cheapest firesticks would be out of the market.QuoteBack in the day it was a niche product not used for private entertainment by just anyone and production automation was much less developed, thus expensive to produce.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 01:19:49 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 07, 2018, 10:47:18 pmWhy? We gave JBC the exposure of their dreams. If they're smart enough they must be pestering Dave for an ad on the forum.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 01:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 08, 2018, 12:16:10 pmSince it is obviously so easy for you to engineer, manufacture and sell a high quality, professional soldering station, why aren't you selling one? Where is your product?QuoteYou don't think technology advanced? You honestly believe that some $3000, $2000 or $1000 computer from, say the late 90s or early 2000s should have cost 10 or 20% of what it sold for? You think that the costs to produce something like that were just artificially inflated to screw you over and take all your money when they could have produced it for a fraction of the cost?You're either delusional or being a troll.I'm glad this forum supports theignore userfeature. I've just updated my list.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 01:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 07, 2018, 10:47:18 pmNobody is forcing you to read the thread. (Or at least Ihopenobody is forcing you...)I find this kind of thread is much easier on the brain with a few select entries in your "ignore user"list.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 01:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on November 08, 2018, 01:20:00 pmI'm too old for that.QuoteI was not the only one who thought like that. The whole industry did. Microsoft was taken to court and found guilty of abusive commercial practices (read acting to artificially inflate the prices, and other little things).QuoteYou must be young.QuoteYou can't ignore me. I am the voice of reason.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 02:06:41 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 08, 2018, 01:44:17 pmNow I know you're just trolling. I started selling computers in the mid 1980s, our own brand in the late 80s. The "whole industry" did not believe this, and I certainly didn't. I'm not sure what you think Microsoft would have had to do with it, the cost of the OS was essentially a very minor part of the price until the past 15 years or so. The vast majority of the cost was the physical hardware. A 486DX2/66 with 32 MB of RAM and a 540 meg SCSI hard disk to run SCO was a $5000 machine in 1994. I sold some to an engineering firm. How did Microsoft inflate the price of those machines?Did Iwishthings were less expensive, especially for my own purchases? Of course. I paid over $500 for a second 40 meg Miniscribe for my BBS machine. That was a lot of money. Years later, I got the largest IDE drive Fujitsu made (180 meg) to replace the worn out Miniscribes on a Perstor, and it cost $650. Do I think these prices were artificially inflated? No. That is what hard disks cost. Those were sure lot less expensive than our CDC Phoenix (80 meg, 14") that had a manufacturing date of Dec 31, 1980. The Phoenix was a lot faster, though.Did I ever believe that computers should be an order of magnitude less expensive because of some vast conspiracy to artificially inflate prices? Absolutely not.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 02:40:14 pm
content: This argument of the OS being a fraction of the hardware is obviously bullshit.Microsoft detained a monopoly on the desktop and the server side. Although the cost of the OS was low, it was a bottleneck. A checkpoint. No software or hardware could properly work if that represented a menace to their dominance. And through that strategic position they controlled the whole industry.Vendors like you were not complaining of course, but clients were.However, that's not the point of this discussion. What is striking is that, even showing to some people that removing Microsoft from the equation the cost of ownership of a PC plant would dramatically reduce, there were those who fought to defend the status quo ante.We were accused back then of being communists, Unamericans, fools, trolls and other stupid things.Now I see the same reaction to defend the perceived high prices of electronics gear.See how many responded positively when I asked, wouldn't be nice if JBC were sold for $50?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 05:41:45 pm
content: I'm happy we finally reached a very clear conclusion to the thread. There's not a shred of evidence that JCB or other soldering irons are overpriced, as bsfeechannel would have provided it by now. After all, he promised he would enlighten us as much as he could to help us understand. It turns out that's not very much and the absence of a concise post with convincing evidence, or actually any evidence helps us understand indeed. It helps us understand that the market is simply shaped by natural processes and not fat cats deciding upon fixed prices. It'd be great to have a high quality $50 soldering station, but it unfortunately is to remain the fantasy it was from the beginning.Of course, in lieu of some solid proof we're treated to another story about software to distract the mind and lift the spirits. This story too is without any evidence and therefore a fantasy, but that shouldn't stop us from having some fun with it. What else is there to do in a thread without proof?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 05:45:38 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 08, 2018, 01:44:17 pmThe term you were looking for is Totally Reasonable Old Lad Lecturing, although its acronym may be more convenient.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 09:56:12 pm
content: QuoteI have to admit, the more people talk about JBC, good or bad, the more closer I get to impulsively buying it. In places where JBC is not common, it certainly helps to promote it just hearing the name. When people are talking about something, unless some fault has been discovered, it's usually a good thing.Windows/monopoly:Classical economics teaches that monopolies usually end up with higher prices. Same things happens in the telecomm bus, power/electricity, and it's really kind of the expected outcome. It's not exactly a hard scientific cause and effect, but it's just more hmm... market forces and human nature? I think it's not too big a stretch to think that Microsoft's monopoly creates an increase in overall price of a computer. But that monopoly still exists. It's not like it went anywhere. Unix and Apple are around, but I'd still call Windows a monopoly. In this case it's more of a necessity though. I don't imagine having 20 different competing OS's would be good in this particular case, eh?But the fact that prices have dropped so much in recent years is easily explainable without any conspiracy. Up until the 90's, there was this thing called Moore's "Law," which described the rate of advancement in memory/processors. It was something to the effect that the number of transistors we could fit on a die was doubling every 4 years. Computers were getting way better, way faster. On that end, things appear to be slowing down. And the only major advancement for 90% of the population (talking end consumers... where the big $$ are coming from, ya know?) is the "higher resolution streaming video" thing. Well, we got to the point where even a Atom processor can stream high end video. Prices usually drop when demand slows down.QuoteOf course they're not overpriced. They cost what they cost. The fact that their uh, let's say Dave's model, has twice the power as most entry level stations and uses cartridge tips are great benefits for high load, high duty cycle tasks. These are benefits.The problem here is the fallacy of equating these benefits or improvements to the price. These are not necessarily strongly related. This station is better at certain things, and that's why it costs more... that is not a logical statement. Even more illogical is to equate the difference in cost with the amount of "improvement." Saying "I wish I could afford that station," well if you can't afford it, then yeah. I would wish I could afford it, too. That would mean I have more money than I did before. But after the genie hands me all this money, I still wouldn't buy the JBC unless I needed those improvements. Otherwise, I'd be paying 4-5x more for replacement tips for a benefit that isn't affecting me. (Depending where you live, apparently JBC is the cheap stuff, so yeah. If you live in India this maybe doesn't apply.) That's not right or wrong. If someone else wants to buy it for other reasons, there's nothing wrong with that. But trying to say it's worth the price difference (again, assuming you're not living in india) is incorrect. That's BS. It's worth w/e you want to pay for it. That doesn't give it the same inherent value to anyone else. Part of that cost is not equal to benefit. It's there because it's a niche market. If JBC sold their Dave-level station for $50.00 less, they would go lose money (or not make as much profit). It's priced where it needs to be for what it is. If they did try to compete and gain major market share with a major price drop; and if it did show signs of working, Hakko or Weller would make a JBC killer and crush them like an ant.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2018, 09:35:06 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 08, 2018, 05:41:45 pmIf you are happy, I am happy. My sole purpose in life is to make people happy.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2018, 10:46:25 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 08, 2018, 09:56:12 pmThere's no such thing as bad publicity.QuoteNot relevant to the present discussion, but interesting anyway.The "conspiracy" is History, with a capital H. Study the history of Microsoft and you will understand what I mean. By the way. I was there. I was part of that history.The Windows monopoly is no more. Today you can have a PC, a tablet or a cellphone with the OS you want (Android, MacOS, Linux, etc.), and have all the services the Internet provides. Back then, Microsoft wanted to lock all computer users in not only to their OS but to a network they were planning to build. The explosive growth of the Internet after 1995 frustrated those plans. They tried desperately to revert that tendency by offering that infamous excrescence called the Internet Explorer. Lots of web sites refused to serve their ridiculous static pages if your browser were not IE. Other browsers running on Windows or other OSs offered users the option to make those browsers identify themselves as IE running on Windows so as to trick the servers.That was the last straw that sparked the rage against Microsoft abuses and culminated with their condemnation in court. This is history. Not fabrication, as one of our imaginative fellow eevbloggers wishfully thinks.(He was probably living under a rock at that time or orbiting around Mars, who knows?).The Moore's law was manipulated at will by Microsoft and their henchmen (Microsoft was compared to a mafia at the time). Knowing that it was possible to offer a "faster" computer, they created new versions that demanded more powerful hardware. If you had Windows "N" on your machine, and wanted to upgrade to Windows "N+1", the new version would intractably run on your present hardware. In fact, they still employ that trick. Hardware vendors were very pleased with that strategy and of course supported Microsoft.There you have your "conspiracy", brilliantly uncovered by Justice.The only ones not so happy were users. Especially corporations with large installed bases that had to upgrade thousands of computers every other year. By that time they started to look for alternatives to Microsoft. I was one of the persons commissioned to find those alternatives.QuotePrices are what prices are. If there are people willing to part with $300k to buy a Ferrari, Ferraris are going to be sold by that price.You can speak about the technical superiority of a Ferrari the whole night long, but the fact is that a Ferrari is just a car. You would probably think that filthy rich people, that earn $300k while you read this post, all have expensive cars but you'll be surprised that they are not easily tricked by that kind of illusion.Rich people taught me that high price isn't a feature.Ingvar Kamprad (late founder of Ikea), 1993 Volvo 240Alice Walton, 2006 Ford F-150 ($40,000)Warren Buffet, Cadillac DTS ($45,000)Mark Zuckerberg, Acura TSX ($30,000)Michael Dell, 2004 Porsche Boxter ($20,000)Steve Ballmer, Ford Fusion ($19,000)If they were engineers, they would never buy a JBC. So it seems.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2018, 04:09:09 pm
content: I feel the quality and creativity of the stories isn't quite what it was in the beginning of this thread. They're made up stories, the sky is the limit! There's no evidence to account for, so go wild! Yet we're served versions of the same story we've heard before. I believe you can do better, bsfeechannel! We could have a tension filled detective story. Or maybe a unicorn or two? Who doesn't like unicorns? You owe it to yourself to add more unicorns.

author: Fgrir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2018, 05:18:56 pm
content: Unicorns are overpriced - they are just fancy horses

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2018, 05:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 09, 2018, 02:23:04 pmAwwww, maaaan, now you've done it!Your laughter made me open another one ofbs's posts...Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 09, 2018, 10:46:25 amYou worked at Microsoft? Interesting.QuoteWindows is still the monopoly player in the desktop PC space, as they have been for decades. They were never theonlyplayer, though, and they're still not. I would argue that they actually domorenow to try to lock you into their platform. Not that it's working very well.I'm no apologist for Microsoft. I can't stand them. Haven't been able to stand them since the early 90s. Prior to that, they made some decent stuff and actually had to compete in certain areas, at least to some degree. I loved Windows/286. I got my copy in the Microsoft Mouse - Windows/286 - PC Paintbrush bundle. Gave me more capability than the Apple Macintosh I had been desiring for years and was a very cost-effective alternative for a usable GUI. It brought a more polished (for the time) GUI to the mass market than things like GEM and when with Windows/386, the ability to run multiple DOS programs independently without DoubleDOS or Desqview was a huge advantage. These were software advances that were allowed by hardware advances, not driven by some "let's slow people down" mentality. The later bloat which is now pervasive in computing was certainly accelerated by them but that's more from the sloppy programming that everyone does now compared to writing mean, lean, clean, code like we all had to do in the early days, whether in assembler or a nice low-level language without all the layers of bloat.QuoteSaturn.QuoteI've always been a strong proponent of alternatives to Microsoft and have always tried to get customers to use alternatives when appropriate. You're just making generalizations which, in this case, are patently false. There were plenty of alternatives and we've supplied them all. Personally, I've been using FreeBSD for most ofmyneeds since version 1.1 and prior to that used all sorts of things on "PC" hardware. You don't seem to know what you're talking about, or at least have a completely different take on history than most of the rest of us. We didn't even migrate the office off the WANG 2200 until the late 1990s (though we did have a couple of XT-class machines acting as WANG terminals as a TSR over top of the DOS programs we used) and had all sorts of nifty integration stuff that I wish I could find a copy of now.Regardless of the software in use on the hardware then, or now, the "PC" style hardware did more to drive down prices of computers than anything else and a large part was essentially fueled by the Microsoft "monopoly" whether you were actually using their software or not. I've rarely liked anything that Microsoft has done but you seem to deny all evidence that they were actually a driver ofloweringcosts due to making that style of hardware into commodity items.As for IE, it wasn't static pages that were the issue, it was server-side Microsoft cruft that wouldn't play nice with anything except IE. Sure, that was bogus, just like the zillion companies that pull the same kind of crap now. You think Apple's walled garden that they want their customers to live in is better than 1980s Microsoft?QuoteAs was (and am) I. If you knew anything about our history you would know that I've always advocated the alternatives. You obviously don't know anything about me, or my company's, history. You're simply talking out your arse here.As for your car analogy, you'll have to do better than trying to postulate that Ferrari is the penultimate of engineering. Nobody in their right mind would try to drive one of those things as a "real" car. They are intended as showpiece of excess and decadence, not a daily driver. Your comparison is like comparing apples to dishwashers.I could sit here all day going on and on about the problems with your various claims (to which you have provided very little concrete evidence) but I prefer to notfeed the trolls, plus I have actualReal WorkTMto do.Quote from: Fgrir on November 09, 2018, 05:18:56 pmIndeed.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 12:48:03 am
content: Going back a bit, tech/PID/software as described by Tarloth:QuoteWrong. There's some "bounce" to the equation. Let us call the 936 a typical thermostatically controlled "dumb" iron that has existed for 30 odd years. You set it to 300C. The tip, in just air, will have a temp that varies by several degrees. Let's call it 5 or 6 C. In general, the tip will spend most of its time gradually cooling. Then when the temp drops below the set point, the heater kicks on. And by the time the sensor says "stop!" the temp will have spiked a bit high. Then it will go back to gradually cooling, again. So the heater ends up doing a thing where it kicks on every 10ish seconds, and the duty cycle is rather short, just a split second. The temp on a graph will be something akin to a saw tooth with short and steep vertical climbs, spaced out between longer gradual decreases in temp. This is what you get in the simple thermostatic controller iron, AFTER the hysteresis is tuned to optimize it for what you need it to do. (Without any hysteresis or PID, the heater will not even give full power, except the first part of a cold start... as soon as it switches on, the sensor will get hot and it will turn off. So it will start to stutter when the tip is still too cold). PID can eliminate nearly all of this variation/oscillation/sawtooth in standby temp. But what does that do for performance? That is a question you ought to ask yourself before you pat yourself on the back.QuoteOk, who says we have to estimate the change in mass?If you look at the previous explanation of what is actually happening in the thermostatic iron, we can say that as the heater power increases and/or the relative mass of the tip decreases, the amount of sawtooth oscillation will increase. If we put the iron onto a heatsink, the mass of the tip/work increases, and the overshoot decreases. By putting the iron on a mass, we are reducing the oscillation/overshoot, which was not really an issue to begin with.QuoteYeah, everyone understands that. What you are leaving out is the explanation of when and where this improves performance. It improves performance where you have higher heater power and lower tip mass. This is where you might start to get overshoot/sawtooth that is significantly impacting performance.QuoteThis is not exactly the way I view it. IMO, there is a certain amount of thermal drop between the tip and the sensor. This is a given. The back end of the tip nearer the heater and sensor is always going to be hotter than the tip. There is always a drop between the tip and the sensor. It's not much different between a cartridge or a metcal or a 936. It's nothing majorly different. Furthermore, the information arrives at the same speed, PID or not. But the tight PID iron will "respond" faster, because it will be starting out at set temp 99% of the time. Because of the tight control and lack of oscillation at standby. The theremostatic iron is going to be above this set temp 90% of the time, in its resting "sawtooth." So it will usually take a tiny fraction of a second longer before the heater kicks on, which is due to the fact that it happened to be above set temp by a degree or two. So it was slightly hotter... thus the heater didn't need to kick on at that instant. So what does that matter to you, the solderer? Maybe not as much as you thought.So if you want a very tiny fine pointed tip to be powered from a 200 watt heater, yeah, you would get an improvement in the temp stability/oscillation. Or when you are soldering very tiny connections with said iron. This is where you get the improvement from the PID. And this tiny llttle tip with the huge engine will likely be able to solder heavy connection much better than a tiny tip powered from 70w. But the 70W station didn't need the PID to begin with. And it never did. That's the difference.So if you want to solder lug nuts with a tiny fine tip and still have good temp stability for small things, you will appreciate high power heater and PID. This is where it matters. But in fact, the mass of the tip matters, and it always matters. And there's no amount of PID/software that is going to make the tiny pointy tip perform just as well as the fatter heavier tip. Even on the JBC, you are going to have to crank the set temp up to use the tinier tip for heavier jobs. So the JBC can do more things, due to having higher power and resultant better PID/software for reigning in the power in the case where it's way too much for the tip/job. But if you don't use that power, because you don't have those high heat sink demands more than once a blue moon, the JBC is not going to noticeably improve your soldering simply due to this PID. It is solving a "problem" that is not a significant factor with the more common older irons. You don't notice the difference.The higher power JBC is more versatile. It has a broader application. It's not better at what the older irons already do just fine. The older tech used more copper mass to do this. And as long as your thruput is not too high, they can keep up just fine. Cartridges are able to use less mass of copper in the tip (for faster warm up time and lower raw material cost for the manufacturer) and with the cartridge design it is able to sustain greater duty cycle. And some higher end irons use cartridges with considerably higher power heaters and the software to make it work well over a wider range of work (without it sucking at the stuff the older irons already do well because they stuffed a hemi V10 into a civic frame). Yes, if you want to more fully take advantage of the larger engine's pros without suffering the cons of your choice, you will get more benefit from fancy PID than a more traditional setup that is more simply setup to perform well in a more narrowly defined role... a role that covers 95% of 95% of the population's current soldering needs. In this role, there is relatively little benefit to be gained from PID. IMO.I did some overgeneralizing, but the overall point is fairly accurate in the end, IMO.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 06:07:52 am
content: I said that I out of discussion but if you quote me I need to answer.Quote from: KL27x on November 12, 2018, 12:48:03 amAnd what? I'm talking about PID CONTROL, not thermostatic control! Even so, a sawtooth it's perfectly acceptable in equilibrium ! few degrees it's negligible for a thing that it's setted to 350 degrees to assure 230 degrees when touch some thermal mass! And it's no wrong at all because the max ripple admitted it's a variable in the PID adjust.Please, not mess up that I wrote. I wrote that only in equilibrium the PID algorithm works as you expect, in some irons the temperature would be essentially stable, in others (older or with primitive controls) may be varies +-5 degrees and it's even correct because it represents less than than 2% of variation!QuoteAGAIN, WHO IS TALKING ABOUT THERMOSTATIC CONTROL??If you change the thermal mass of the iron the PID can recover the equilibrium but at unacceptable speed. The PID LEARNS PREVIOUSLY that if it injects some energy to the iron it corrects some amount of temperature variation, but now the mass it's different and then the energy transferred cause a minor recover in temp, then the PID continues adding energy at expected levels to obtain the desired temperature but the process it's slow or it's so slow than old technology irons.If your algorithm take notice of change in variables, forced a mayor energy transfer and evaluate the response. If you connect a new cartridge system to a basic PID control you obtain a sluggish response because solder boards it's not exactly a usual or basic PID problem but adaptative one.If you use old technology as thermostatic control or inappropriate algorithm or bad technology or you obtain an un-acceptable overshoot or you have a more sluggish response. That's it, it's not a problem thermoSTATIC, it's a DYNAMIC problem with some workaroundsQuoteNo, you assume that and it's wrong. More power an lower tip mass not guarantees anything. The speed to see what happens exactly in the point that solder it's melted and the correct energy transfer for this situation guarantees a proper response. More power and bad control's it's the recipe for a disaster, less power with quick response it's a winner combination.QuoteAt this point and after read the series of regrettable nonsense arguments about evil software conspirations and high quality solder stations that can be sell at 50 dollars but some (evil again) international conspiration float to 350, a complete lost of time, I do not know if I am interested in your point of view. I am interested in reading correct problem models made by people who really know the subject and then the discussion is enriching for all forum members.QuoteYes, but it's by far less in good new systems than in old systems or crap clones. All the problem it's maintain this difference low in any situation.QuoteThis nonsense made me mad. Have you use any good solder station any time or you suppose this? ALL users that use new and better equipments aggree that exist an improvement, the only question is if the difference in cost for the specific user application worth the change, nut NEVER it's discussed that exist a HUGE difference between a 936 or a metcal or a cartridge system!QuoteWhat?? You are arguing that the information arrives at the same speed and precision in my FX888D than in a new FX951 or JBC or PACE?QuoteThermostatic again? PID or thermostatic? Please, select one! You argues that the only difference between a thermostatic control and PID control it's a "tiny fraction of a second" and the only difference it's a degree or two?QuoteContinue the nonsense. I had never talk about thermostatic and never talk about any of facts that you are arguing. To be honest, at his point I don't know what are you arguing or supposing or imagining.The improvement in the solder stations of the last year respond to:a) A better and quick measure of the temperature at the extreme of the tipb) A Heater physically located near the extreme of the tipc) Better and complex algorithms that response better to extreme situations than the old systems based in basic PID or some kind of proportional controlBut now you are supposing that not exist any difference between a thermostatic or new control? Sorry, but at this point please be clear and resume in one paragraph that you are arguingQuoteFX951 still have 70 watts and solder way better than my FX888 and JBC or PACE uses rarely more power than that and use the total power (130, not 200!) in really big thermal masses.QuoteAleluya!!!!!! You recognizes that better solder irons do a better job!!!!, BUT now I are convinced: Without doubt you NEVER used a good and new solder station!As I said in all of my previous post, the differences it's very notable, but maybe in your special case the improvement not worth to buy the new system and it's OK!!!! (I did repeat this six or seven times!)But please, not think that because you not need the improvement the entire solder station not worth the difference, it's overpriced, it's a scam or any of the arguments that somebody said in last posts.QuoteYES and not it's a question of power! If you measure the power you can notice that uses the same or less power than in a 936 (for example) but you obtain a fastest response and less overshoot.PLEASE!!!! Not continue supposing nothing! Go to any demo shop and use it and see with your own eyes that respond better than old irons and again, perhaps you are not interested in pay for the update, but almost see that the thing works better!QuoteSorry, but it is not even a standard PID what the new stations use, and if they do, they are slower than they could be, but are you claiming that there is only a small benefit with the new controls compared the old proportional or thermostatic? Please, use a newer solder station, measure this response and then come back with real data to compare, not your supossings.This post it's full of weird supossings, people that buy a crap clon and think that buy something "NASA ready" and worst, people that suppose that company that sell tools form some kind of club that decides put the sell cost 200 times over the real cost only to prejudicate him.It's the first time in my life that saw people arguing that all the hammer, pliers, clocks, computers or cars are the same and even arguing that the cheapest ones are the same quality than more expensive ones.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 11:56:38 am
content: Quote from: Tarloth on November 12, 2018, 06:07:52 amIf anyone is looking for the summary of this thread till now, they just have to read the quote above.

author: sstepane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 12:19:06 pm
content: Quote from: kaevee on November 12, 2018, 11:56:38 amTrue. While none of the listed is the same for the given price. It's even more about switching general rule and exceptions.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 02:33:28 pm
content: Yes, tools have grades of quality and the price it's proportional to the quality. Exist exceptions? Off course! A fancy new tool with some new technology is slightly overpriced for a while but never for years. Exist some tools that price it's not according to quality? I think that it's totally possible but are more exceptions than rules because when people buy it and comment his disconfort other people not buy it.Thinking that people that really work all day whith his tools seems like fanatic Apple buyers and thrwo away money all time because a fancy logo I think that it's an error. People that really need a tool evaluate it withouth fanatism, indeed unlike that, I see a lot of fanatism in people that solder a small board per week or less, most of the times only connect "arduino like" boards between them, but defends the buy of his cheap clon iron like if buy this article was the cleverest decision in the world and his clon was capable of doing all task and all people taht buy a better tool was silly.Actually I totally respect his decision, they buy a cheap iron for an eventual not challenging task. In a similar situation I would do the same, but never would think that rest of world are idiots for burning their money buying more qualified tools. This attitude pesting me.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 03:36:23 pm
content: Quote from: Tarloth on November 12, 2018, 02:33:28 pmTrue. A design engineer's cost per day is probably more than the cost of a JBC station itself. Any smart company will try to make best of its resources by providing them right tools for the given job.If one had taken a moment and checked out the price of "JBC - CD-2BE" and "HAKKO - FX-951" in Euro zone, this thread would have been meaningful. Hakko's price is more than JBC.Edit: I have a neutral opinion on the price itself. If one is willing to pay more for something, it is their choice. As long as a companydon't have monopolyit should be free to price its product at whatever level they choose to.https://www.weidinger.eu/en/shop/soldering_equipment/jbc/jbc_tools_soldering_and_desoldering_device/jbc_tools_compact_line/wl34561https://www.weidinger.eu/en/shop/soldering_equipment/hakko/hakko_soldering_and_desoldering_device/hakko_soldering_stations/wl22740Note: Attached are the screenshots showing today's price.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 03:51:42 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on November 08, 2018, 01:44:17 pmBecause they exerted a de facto monopoly on computer operating systems with a market share of 90% maybe?That's very different from setting an arbitrary price. As far as I know there's no law against setting an arbitrary price, but that changes if you abuse monopoly power. They also prevented computer manufacturers from installing alternative operating systems, kept file formats secret when not making deliberate changes to them forcing users to upgrade, and so on.They even had secret API functions that were extensively used in their application programs, while they only disclosed them to certain select third party developers if any. There was an excellent coverage on Dr Dobb's Journal at the time.They did a lot of nasty stuff, even trying to subvert Internet technical standards.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 06:10:49 pm
content: QuoteExactly. The sawtooth of the thermostatically controlled iron is perfectly fine the way it is, as you have said. Therefore, what is it you think the PID control loop is improving, which is so important to your soldering? You are making my point even more dramatic. My point is that the elimination of this sawtooth is one of the most significant "major" improvements that PID makes. You seem to think it does other things which are way more important. Go ahead and enlighten me.The main improvement, as I have stated, is very much like the improvement of electronic fuel injection over carburetors. In a passenger car the difference will be mainly appreciated by your mechanic. You might get an extra mpg or two, but you wouldn't notice any other difference, in practice. Yeah, with good mapping, it will produce 2% more torque at this spot in the curve. But the overall difference in performance will be very, very minor. Simply because the carb works pretty good the way it is, for what a car engine needs.The more significant improvement between a JBC and an 888 is the cartridge, IMO, rather than the software.QuoteThis is confusing. You are saying the PID learns on the go and injects more energy. First, I don't think the PID is learning on the go, it is preprogrammed algorithms. Secondly, the thermostatic iron is giving 100% full power, so how does PID make an iron put more energy thru software than the thermostatic-only iron? The max rate it can input energy is at 100% power. The result of the thermostatic iron with properly tuned hysteresis is that it gets the iron to temp pretty close to as fast as possible within a few degrees, already. The downside of lack of PID is the overshoot. Which is what makes the sawtooth, which you commented on, in a regular thermostatic iron without PID. You said this sawtooth/oscillation is insignificant. Which if you knew what you were saying is the same thing as saying that this overshoot is insignificant. But here, you say it is unacceptable. You are arguing in circles with yourself.QuoteI'm comparing the two. Where I say thermostatic, I mean thermostatic using only comparator and opamp and a single switchpoint with hysteresis. 50 year old technology. PID means ADC and PID algorithms. Try reading the post after a good night of sleep. You're way too wound up and you are only seeing what you want to see. You want an argument pretty bad, and your counterpost shows you have very little comprehension of what I wrote. It may turn out that some of my statements are wrong or incorrectly applied. But in the least it might be possible I put more thought and understanding in my post than what you are giving credit for. And taking a moment to understand or seek clarification of my statements before throwing the train off the track might further both of our understandings of the issues at stake.QuoteNo, I have not used all high end stations. But I have used a Metcal, and I know what the set temps are. That info is available. It's not impressive in 99% of my soldering needs. Maybe it makes a difference in extreme conditions. And as for B, check here for test of difference between T12 clone tips and 888. The difference in sensor location does not appear to reduce thermal drop in and of itself.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/t12-clone-vs-888-practical-test-results/As for A and C: I don't know why you think an opamp and comparator can't make a quick measurement. It's much faster, less information. And why do you think the speed was a major limitation or fault of soldering stations? If the PID makes some good use of the extra info, it can have some gains in improvement, but the question that is important is HOW MUCH, regarding actual soldering performance? And can you demonstrate it? Where and when you will notice this? My stance is that the improvement will not be much except in higher thermal output without heating the handle, which is due to the cartridge's benefit of having better efficiency/insulation of the heater output. More of that power you put in goes to the tip, less waste heat that goes into the handle. Any other improvement you may think you are experiencing due to PID, I would like someone to measure and quantify it. Until then, it is just marketing wank; it may be technically and legally and semantically correct information and still make squat difference.You wrote this, and I'm inclined to agree:QuoteSo if the PID improves this a little or all the way, it still won't be a significant difference. Some people seem to be arguing that a Lexus is better than a Kia because it has electronic fuel injectors. Of all the reasons that a given Lexus might be better than a given Kia, this is a strange POV to come up with this statement.I do not care if you agree with me. I look forward to a logical post where I am shown to be wrong whether by performance numbers or flaw in logic. This would mean I learn something.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2018, 07:32:14 am
content: KL27x, I think that YOU NEED to read better, I Wrote other thing that you affirm, and please, readQuoteThe word equilibrium is the key, a sawtooth it's acceptable when the solder it's in air, NOT soldering, but the overshoot when the thermal mass change can be inaceptable if not exist any kind of almost proportional control and ideally a PID control.Rest of post only describe:a) You ignore about PID behaviour against a proportional only control and worst an on-off one. PLEASE, read a book about it and then will continue talking.b) You ignore that since first post I'm talking about modified PID algorithms that are too close to adaptive PID algorithms. You ignores that exist pseudo static PID autotune and exist adaptive PID (and more options of course!) and both of them learns from previous cycles and modify the behaviour on the fly.c) You confirm that you never use a solder station like this post talk about, Ultrasonic (I think that you talk about this technology) Metcal it's a very different beast and none of us are talking about it in this post. Please, use a solder station with cartridge system and answer yourself.d) Thermostatic control only it's not fine for most of the SMD situations, or the overshoot it's inaceptable in small components or it's sluggish in GND pad's, you can't adjust both extremes at the same time, PID and enhanced PID algorithms yes. I not explain to you why, take a book or two and read it, please inform yourself and answer to you why a simplistic proportional o thermostatic control with an opamp it's not equal or better than a complex PID circuit or algorithm.e) Are you really think that ALL the industry pay for sophisticated PID controllers with fuzzy logic or adaptative logic for most of the devices that need some type of close loop control when a simple op amp can do a better job? Are you kidding me? It's understandable to me now why you (and some other people) think that you can make a professional solder station with 50 dollars! It's strange that nobody suggest use any kind of bimetal interruptor only to make a superb solder station!!!!.You are arguing from your ignorance about the advantage of use a correct control of thermal process in general, you ignores PID improvement over simplistic thermostatic control and of course at the same time ignores why we are talking about process were the mass it's changing, but you demands to other that convince you about something that you not understand.You deliberately prefer to ignore what I and others are trying to explain and only read (and insist) from your knowledge. You argue that I'm doing circles and you really do not understand that I'm talking.I did assume since the beginning that you did knows about Proportional Integral Derivative Control and why it's better in this case when the reaction need to be just and quick, my mistake, sorry.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2018, 08:00:37 am
content: QuoteFirstly, equilibrium doesn't mean "in air." If the tip is on a given heatsink and you leave it there, it will reach an equilibrium under this condition.But ok, you meant "in air." So in your estimation, you are stating that a few degrees off during soldering is unacceptable.So if I solder at 350C, because it's a nice round number, this could be disastrous when I actually need 347C?The dwell time and seeing the solder bead form, and user removing the iron after the connection is made have nothing to do with soldering? Hot air can't be used for anything sensitive, either, then? It's impossible to control the temp within a few degrees unless you put a sensor on the component, is it not true? Metcal must be the most useless tool made. It comes in something like 50C increments of temperature setting. If 5 degrees of overshoot is a deal-breaker, what can you do with an iron that starts out 25C too high right out of the gate?Quote1. Do you honestly believe that I claimed an opamp does a BETTER job than can be done with PID? Or are you just trying to provoke me? I have stated that the improvement of PID (which quid pro quo means I recognize it is an improvement) may in fact be quite small.2. Do you think all industries use soldering stations with PID controllers?QuoteWell, no. I didn't read "the book" you have evidently learned from. But the "changing mass" is the very reason I don't see how a PID control will have as great a benefit in this case. In the case where the mass is fixed and the only variable is temp, PID can maintain exact temps. Most PID controllers used in homes and businesses are using them in cases where the masses are known and predictable. In the case of a soldering iron, it is not possible for the iron to prevent all overshoots. As you say, the PID algorithm is learning on the fly. And it is "increasing energy" to the tip because it's on a heatsink. Let's say it's a huge heatsink. Now just at that moment when the software was able to "increase the energy" to the tip, as you say, the user decided to lift the iron. The station has no capability to actively cool the tip. So you get an overshoot. An overshoot equally large to the iron that has no PID. Is this not so? (Or will it be even bigger, because the PID makes the iron dump "more energy" into the tip?) Then a moment later you solder your next connection and you are 3 degree too high, and disaster happens.And yes, I have used and own cartridge stations, and I have done testing. Link in my last post. I have clearly stated that cartridges have significant benefits over the ceramic heater style of irons. The benefits I am referring to are due to the efficiency of heat generation, allowing higher sustained thermal output without overheating the handle. This is not due to PID.Marketing hype and PID algorithms don't solder things. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the PID is a big deal, as you think it is, it will be easily demonstrated in a repeatable experimental setup between two stations with similar tip size and style. Since you understand the benefit/necessity of PID to do industrial quality soldering, maybe you could suggest an experiment that can demonstrate the practical difference. Or do you think the answer is in one of your books? The answer, mind you, to the right question. Not in what way is the "adaptive learning on the fly PID algorithm/artificial intelligence" can improve upon basic thermostatic control.... but HOW MUCH of an improvement can be made in the case of a soldering station as regarding the act of soldering.Please suggest one or two of these books you are referring to. And preferably the one that has the answer to this.QuoteI don't need to be convinced. I agree that PID can make a (small) difference to a soldering iron. I'm glad we agree.But unless it is quantified, I am reminded of a Google Damon wannabe male engineer who made a video slamming female engineers as taking jobs from better qualified males. It was probably in the female engineer thread. Anyhows, he demonstrates his enginerding skill with what he learned in a 2 day course, some decision making chart. Where you just put a checkmark for each "good thing" and add them up. Then ding ding, you have a winner. And thusly, you know the best solution. This retard doesn't even realize that his 2 day course his boss chose for him to attend was not in engineering, but in assertiveness training. Whereby he can feel qualified to make decisions on things he doesn't understand enough to put the correct value to. So he can manage and lead real engineers. (Because he got bad grades but has good communication skills and is a white dude. Perfect!) His job is the kind of BS-gineering male privilege position he is slamming other people for getting. Guy has a college diploma and majored in engineering. And he demonstrates this Fischer Price decision making chart as the reason he is irreplaceable and women can't possibly do his job. Of course, he should be proud it took him only 2 days to learn it, all things considered.JBC otheradaptive PID learning? Check No.works as a doorstop? Check CheckTotal: 2 1JBC = betterest iron, 2 to 1. Done deal. Let's close the book on this one, boys.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2018, 02:15:34 pm
content: Guys, do we really need point for point responses the size of the Bible?

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2018, 03:18:20 pm
content: Please KL27x, you are continue supposing. Cartridge system it's an improvement per se and quality of the tip do a important part of the trick, but, if you connect the same handle that you use in a good solder station to a circuit with an "opamp only" (on-off control or proportional control) you can see without any help that the behaviour it's worse than connected to solder station. Algorithms in good solder station, most of them based on PID or adaptive PID or similar, can't cold the tip but can evaluate a lot better how much energy transfer to the tip to control the overshoot and of course can control much better the extremes. For that was designed the station and use all the previous experience of the brand to adapt better to industry necessity!. Each station it's better than previous one in the same cost range. The theory behind this stations it's proved for solve these problems that proportional control only or simple on-off control can't solve! Can an Iron with on -off control do the job? Of course! But new solder stations do it better!I really don't believe that we are arguing about that! You affirm the all circuitry in the solder station it's most the time irrelevant? You think that a Pace and a JBC works exactly the same because use the same system and total power? You think that software or circuits not matter in this devices? If you think so, please see Dave review of the PACE against the JBC to see that previous to the firmware upgrade the Pace it's really out of the JBC spects. I not see a video after the upgrade but I think that Pace still go slighty under JBC performance because people continue buying JBC despite the cost difference. And like the Dave revision exist a lot in youtube, please see it or better go to a shop and try the difference. 90% of people need a JBC? Not for sure, 95% of people in forums solder a board one a month if really do it, but it's a bad argument disqualify or not recognize the improvements of a good tool because most of forum user be an amateur or hobist.I'm a fanatic of JBC? Nop! Have I a JBC? Not, I not need it and only in the las two months did need a cartridge solder station. I did compare T12 clones and a 951 and clones do worst the same task. I friend of mine have a JBC and really work better than his 951 but only in huge thermal masses and 951 and JBC works better than my 888. Period. If your time it's money in your bussiness, better tools make better job and in less time and they pay themselves sometimes in a few days of work.How hard is it to understand this so simple fact?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2018, 03:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: Tarloth on November 13, 2018, 03:18:20 pmYou do realize that PID principle was invented on analog electronics, and that in fact OPAMP as a concept was invented as a building block for analog computing..Including process controllers with PID control... It is perfectly easy to make PID analog controller for soldering station that would have perfect characteristics. It is simply cheaper to do it with digital PID controller..You guys should stop this. You are both right. You are correct that some high performance stations have tighter temp control. Other guy is right that it doesn't matter most of the time. If the job requires it, you buy expensive. If not, you buy cheaper. It is common sense. Whatever works for you.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2018, 03:57:34 pm
content: This seems significantly like the never endingvivsemacsreligious holy war.

author: Tarloth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2018, 03:51:57 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 13, 2018, 03:37:36 pmOf Course!!!! But the post that I answer talk about ONE opamp acting an on-off circuit, not an analog PID controller.QuoteI agree, but all the problem in this post it's that some people consider than expensive tools are useless and do the same job that can be done with any crap tool. I repeat the same since the beginning, if somebody it's happy with his 15 dollars solder station is fantastic, but do not try to convince those who honestly ask for equipment recommendations that they will not get anything better than that cheap solder station, because this is dishonest. Tools have grades in quality and price.I did stop to arguing a lot of time ago in this post, but someone quote my messages affirming that I told thing that never told.