Building a lab from the ground up. Need some suggestions. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 09:13:01 am
content: I didn't think I would have to ask for suggestions when it comes to equipment, but i think it's a good idea to see what others think. Firstly, i am an EE student. Fairly new to it; Im learning the basics now. Im doing very well in my classes. Now, I have $4000 - $5000 to spend. I have nothing to start with. I did just get done purchasing a PC for this lab so that is taken care of already. I need a power supply, a bench DMM, an digital oscilloscope, soldering and desoldering gear, etc. A function generator. Now, 4 - 5000 is a lot, but it's not and I know all of you know this. Even though I would like to get everything i need with this 4 - 5000 i would like even more to get the best most important stuff first and then get the other smaller stuff in time. You know what i mean? The power suppy, oscilloscope, and bench DMM are the most important. I havent used a function generator in school yet so i dont know how important it is. Anyways, im will to spend a good amount of money on the power supply, DMM, and oscilloscope. I need these to be good for now and for anything that i could possibly want to do down the road. Knowing me, I out grow stuff pretty quick. For the oscilloscope i was thinking a either a Rigol DS2072A or a used DS2202 or maybe even a DS2202A if i can break a deal with a seller. Any objections to these? What do you think? For a bench DM. I was thinking an Agilent 34401A? An objection to this? A power supply, Im not sure. I was thinking the Rigol DP832, but Dave Jones ran into problems with it. Any suggestions for a similar power supply that is reliable? I havent even looked into a function generator yet or a soldering and desoldering station. A desoldering station is going to be important because i will be tearing apart old shit for the parts. Whatelse? What suggestions do you have for any gear. I already spoke to my professor about this and he thinks its a great idea. He said it'll be usefull for next semester as i will be building circuits in that class. I didnt get advice when it comes to what equipment because i dont think he is keeping up with the times, lol. Thanks for you help.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 09:30:50 am
content: We just went through this here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/$5000-electronics-lab-challenge/Get two hand held meters instead of a bench meter, much more versatile.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 09:32:13 am
content: Maybe after reading this you can come up with more specific questions.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/$5000-electronics-lab-challenge/...and....paragraphs are your friend when it comes to making your posts easier to read.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 09:46:26 am
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 12, 2015, 09:13:01 amYou don't need $5K to get a home lab for school. $1k would be enough.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 11:38:56 am
content: Ill read through that thread. Im typed all of that out on my phone so yea, did it just to get it done. This lab just isnt for school. Its going to be my life. Ill read the thread.

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 12:20:25 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 12, 2015, 11:38:56 amIf it is going to be your life, why hurry to get it done? You have time; so put aside a budget for projects, and a budget for tools/equipment and do some electronics. The lab will follow as a natural course, unless you don't need it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 12:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 12, 2015, 09:30:50 amNOOOO!!Get two bench meters and stack them. Handhelds need changing batteries, clutter your bench, are hard to read when you sit on a chair and always switch off during measurements just as you want to read them. A handheld is great to take with you and do some quick measurements but for use while building a circuit a handheld sucks badly.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 12:55:45 pm
content: Quote from: idpromnut on November 12, 2015, 12:20:25 pmThis.$1000-$1500 will easily get you started, able to do 90+% of what you'll ever need to do (meter, 'scope, PSU, solder, tools).Buy the special/expensive stuff as you need it. It only takes a couple of days to arrive.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 01:01:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2015, 12:40:36 pmYep. Batteriesarea sticking point when it's your day job and they need to be on all day long.OTOH batteriesdolast quite a long time (six months with 2-3 hours a day usage) and bench meters restrict you to a working radius of a few feet.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 01:10:05 pm
content: The hurry is that i want everything that im using at the school in my apartment before next semester. I dont want to take my time, atleast right now, accumulating equipment, because i have all this cash for equipment now. I will never have cash like this again for good equipment. If i dont spend it now on lab equipment, i might end up spending it on stupid stuff thats not even related to EE. So i want to figure out what i need and get the best that i can now while i can.I was thinking for now that i would get a really good bench DMM and a really good handheld DMM. This was i have one to veriy to some extent that the other is working properly. Maybe even two handhelds.It turns out that i will have even more cash for lab equipment than i thought. Ill look through the thread you guys posted and see whats there.I need very good equpiment thats going to cover a wide range of projects and last a very long time. I dont want to buy the cheapest stuff.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 01:15:21 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 12, 2015, 01:10:05 pmSounds like you already have a list, so... why ask here?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 01:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 12, 2015, 01:10:05 pmStill I'd guess you want value for money. The cheap pieces of equipment I'm particulary happy with:- VC8145 bench multimeters (4.5 digit / 0.01% accuracy)- Siglent SDG1010 waveform generator (10MHz and below are fanless)- Feeltech 3200 series waveform generator (dirt cheap but with 20Vpp output which comes in handy)- Atten 858D+ hot air station.- Array DC loadThings I would not buy cheap: oscilloscope and a soldering iron (I suggest to look at Ersa or JBC). Still I would try and save some money if I where you. $2k should get you started.

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 02:00:02 pm
content: Are you willing to go for used equipment? If you're just starting out and have the luxury of taking a while to acquire your equipment, you can probably get everything you need second hand for around 1/2 to 1/3 of your budget.A few things to consider:-If you anticipate repairing used equipment or working on high voltage circuits, a SAFE handheld multi-meter is a must. It doesn't need to be your only meter nor does it need to have the highest resolution, but you should have something trustworthy. UL Listed meters like the Brymen BM257s or the mid-level Flukes would be great choices as perhaps a companion to a bench meter.-For your power supply, you need to determine whether or not you need the programming capability of something like the DP832. If not, then you might consider investing in a used basic PSU from a reputable manufacturer. Power supplies are one of the types of items on which you can find good deals frequently on eBay.-You need to include some of the smaller things in your budget such as probes, test leads, cables, breadboards, basic components, etc. Don't skimp on the quality of that stuff, or it will make your life a pain in the ass on the bench. This is wherecomes in real handy.-You might want to move the soldering equipment higher up on your list of priorities. Don't settle for shitty tools, get a good soldering iron, functional hot air rework station, and a good desoldering gun too if you anticipate harvesting old components.If I were an EE student, I would be diving into the used equipment market. There's nothing better than finding a great deal, learning by fixing, and finally seeing your hard work pay off as you build up your bench.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 02:02:49 pm
content: Good call on getting a handheld or two in addition to a bench meter.When repairing a piece of gear, I find it's much more convenient having a handheld meter right in your vision so you don't have to move your head to look up or mess around with min/max modes to take a reading.I just finished repairing a 34401A. My workspace is chock a block full of bench multimeters but I used a 87V during the repair, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

author: commie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 03:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2015, 12:40:36 pmI agree, don't get a hand held unless you are going to be doing field work. You will actually get more for your money with a bench meter, the Fluke 8808A is an excellent choice, with VFD.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 03:25:03 pm
content: Hmm, I have several bench meters but I find myself typically using a handheld because I can position it so my eyes aren't far from where I'm probing. Get at least one of eachIf you don't need a programmable power supply, you can get really good deals on used HP or Power Designs. Even if they're broken, repair is often trivial (output filter caps, for example).Soldering tools are fairly personal, but not an area to scrimp on.Also, spend some money on good pliers and other tools. Maybe a magnifier for smd work. Those lighted bench magnifiers with lights work pretty well and they're not expensive.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 04:06:03 pm
content: Great advice! Yes ill sport used equipment for sure. Some of the stuff im eyeballing is used. I remember Dave Jones saying to not to skimp on a desoldering iron. I definitely plan on salvaging used components. I live in an apartment complex and people throw away electronic stuff all the time. Anyways, so yea, i figured to not skimp on the oscilloscope, the soldering/ desoldering gear, the power supply, and the bench multimeter and handheld. I definitely want a nice programmable power supply. I dont know about the DP832 though:/ Dave and others were having some trouble with it.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 08:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 12, 2015, 01:10:05 pmYou want to be an engineer? Then, try to address the root cause of the problem before resorting to patches. Spending more than you need on equipment now isn't solving the problem of spending money when you shouldn't be spending it.You may end up having to settle for risk mitigation, but that shouldn't be your first resort.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 09:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: eas on November 12, 2015, 08:24:58 pmYea, this isn't a problem im trying solve, and even if it was I'm not trying to patch anything. I'm merely trying to buy the best stuff for the money I have to spend right now. There's nothing wrong with trying to acquire better now as oppose to buying better gear later. I have the money now so I would like to get better gear now, so I don't have to worry about it for a very long time. What's wrong with that?!?!

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 10:14:05 pm
content: QuoteWhy do you think you 'need' something like this? I have worked in engineering labs all my working life and in the last 25 years I've only seen a high end bench DMM being used by an engineer a few times. By contrast, the test dept is loaded with them and we have loads of them in ATE racks. But in the design labs the handheld DMM is the tool of choice and usually something with 4.5 digits is ample.As for test gear I would recommend you buy something like the Analog Discovery to begin with. It's a very versatile platform and very good value.http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1639278.pdfYou can (could?) get a huge discount on the price if you are a student. There's plenty to play with here.Don't get seduced/fixated on getting a 'lab'. It really isn't an important part of the learning process and I would even consider it a distraction to a young student.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 05:40:22 am
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 12, 2015, 09:13:01 amI can sell you a new (1 hour of use) Rigol MSO2072A for $960. I decided to go with a MSO4014 instead.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 06:01:19 am
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 12, 2015, 09:13:01 amI would build your own power supply. You can recycled an old laptop power adapter into a triple output adjustable constant current constant voltage power supply for like $10 using a couplebuck converter circuitsand an arduino.The best solder will make even the cheapest iron usable. With my $10 Zhongdi ZD-98 and Kester 44 #66 Sn63Pb37 .020" I can solder like a boss. Absolutely follow Daves advise and use .020" (0.5mm) diameter or smaller. Also absolutely essential is a Hakko 599B-02 wire sponge.Here is the order I placed on All-Spec a couple weeks ago:KW4400 SOLDER WIRE RA 44, .020 EA $25.26CW7000 PEN DISPENSER EMPTY FOR FLUX PKG $14.48835100ML FLUX ROSIN NON-CONDUCT 4.2 OZ EA $8.7280-1-5 SODER-WICK ROSIN SD .030" ESD EA $2.7980-2-5 SODER-WICK ROSIN SD .060" ESD EA $2.7980-3-5 SODER-WICK ROSIN SD .080" ESD EA $3.0280-4-5 SODER-WICK ROSIN SD .110" ESD EA $3.2680-5-5 SODER-WICK ROSIN SD .145" ESD EA $3.6180-6-5 SODER-WICK ROSIN SD .210" ESD EA $3.78599B-02 SPONGE WIRE WITH HOLDER EA $8.81611-1 SOLDER STAND SINGLE REEL EA $12.53

author: joesixpack
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 06:56:10 am
content: I went through this exact process last year when I decided to go back into electronics and to get a second degree, in EE. I'm surprised at the amount of nerd-rage generated when someone dares to ask for advice when they want to spend more than a few hundred dollars, without "earning it." I ignored this nonsense and evaluated each purchase. I'm now using my gear for freelance projects and just ordered a Keithley 8820-S this morning to work on a customer project.View Dave's video. Look at suggestions, then upgrade where you see fit. That's exactly what I did-- I built up a list and would research the test gear to death and purchase each, one at a time.My advice to you or any beginners in general:- If you don't know you need something don't buy it, or buy the cheapest one you can get your hands on. When you NEED it, get the best you possibly can afford, for your specific and future needs.- Don't pay retail for new equipment. Don't be afraid to get a quote or ask for a discount. The more you buy, expect the discount to be bigger. That being said, TEquipment usually had the best deal when I was shopping for new gear and soliciting quotes.- Sometimes eBay has worse prices than you can get from an factory authorized seller; Sometimes prices on Amazon are worse, as there are sellers on Amazon who will take your order and use eBay as a drop shipper. Always shop around.Power supply:- Forget programmable, focus on cheap and reliable. Chances are you won't ever use the programmable features anyway. By the time you really want a programmable power supply, they will all have 6.5 digit meters built in with LXI standard. Also, I've never had to run my power supply above 24V, so don't go crazy. Minimum should be a linear power supply with current limiting. Check out factory certified/used power supplies and you might find a bargain. I purchased a new Tektronix 0-72V power supply on clearance for ~$323.- The Rigols have had some major issues, am I'm not convinced they've all been fixed; same with Siglent. Mayuono has a cheap power supply with a built in 6.5 digit meter, but is known to generate a destructive 15 V spike when turned on or off. Or just go to tequipment.net->power supplies and sort from lowest the highest and keep scrolling until you find one that you are comfortable with.- You can build your own power supply, but after spending hours and hours looking at kits, designs, parts lists, pricing out components, figuring out how to make the case, and trying to find a design with CV/CC and limiting was consuming too much time. You can purchase a power supply and it will arrive in a few days ready to go. Yes, it's a great learning experience, but keep in mind most shops don't design power supplies for their products, they buy them off the shelf or tweak reference designs from places like TI.- Choose wisely and the power supply will outlive you, so long as you don't abuse it. You'll notice Dave still has his first power supply.Logic Analyzer:- You don't need one unless you are working with digital designs serial busses. When you want one, buy just a Salea logic analyzer. The logic analyzers on scopes aren't great.Oscilloscope:- Avoid USB oscilloscopes, or multipurpose USB test stations like the NI MyDAQ, or Analog Discovery. I was forced to purchase a NI MyDAQ for one of my EE courses and it's an expensive toy that was forced to use with terrible, bloated software that only runs under Windows. The people recommending them never touched one.- Don't buy an antique/analog oscilloscope unless you just want to collect and repair old stuff as a hobby. Be nice to people who do this, because a) they know magical stuff about analog design, and b) you might inherit their stuff when they go into the old folks home, and I guarantee they have some cool stuff hiding in cardboard boxes that they've forgotten about.- Rigol is the #1 recommendation for <$500. Beyond $1k, they aren't as good a value. I purchased the cheapest Rigol. It got the job done, but it was noisy, flickered constantly, and had issues. Now that I have more experience, I honestly think I would have been happier with an entry level scope from Tektronix, Agilent, etc., for just a little more money. But every time I thought about buying an entry level scope from the top tier vendor, I'd see people complaining about the limited memory. I can count the number of times on my right hand the times that would have mattered, provided I set the triggers correctly. But the bright side is that it was terrible enough to push me to upgrade. As soon as I had the smallest justification, I upgraded to an Tektronix MDO3014. I am very, very happy with the new scope.- Above the $800 price point start looking at other manufacturers. Hammeg/R&S has some low end scopes that looked pretty good against the Rigols if you get them on a sale. Keysight too.- When looking purchasing your first oscilloscope don't get caught up on extra features, look at primarily at bandwidth and what you intend to do, and the rest will follow. In the beginning most of your measurements are going to be qualitative (is it 12V or 0V, what does the waveform look like, etc.) and not quantitative (how many nano seconds is the rise time compared to that other signal, how many mv is that signal before the clock arrived, etc.).- For very basic electronics or basic repair, an oscilloscope is unnecessary but nice to have.- For basic electronics when you start throwing in digital logic, op-amps, I'd say <=50MHz is fine.- For basic microcontrollers, look at the signals you intend look at. Still, I think 50MHz is fine, unless you start getting faster clock speeds.- More bandwidth is better; lower capacitance probes is better; 10x passive probes are better than 1x/10x probes.DMM:- Get two DMMs; two cheap DMMs are better than one expensive one; eventually you will want to measure current and voltage at the same time or check to see if the meter is broken.- I think a 5.5 digit meter, like the Fluke 8808A is awesome; it's fast and crazy responsive. I purchased a factory certified one from Fluke for ~$800. I also have a 6.5 digit meter, and an 87V, but I use the 5.5 digit fluke most often.LCR meter:- This is a luxury. Since I was buying parts assortments I wanted to be able to measure capacitors and unmarked inductors. Don't buy the $20 LCR/ESR meters on eBay, they are worthless. Buy the BK LCR meter or similar.- Also, don't buy jumbo mystery component grab bags, or you will end up with a drawer filled with hundreds of parts you don't use. If you want to buy an assortment of parts, buy an assortment of labeled known values. Trust me. I have a box of unknown chips with part numbers that don't reference to anything.Function Generator/Arbitrary Waveform Generator- Resist the urge to purchase the newest Siglent or Rigol waveform generator. I'm still using the cheap Instek function generator and just now getting to the point where I want to use arbitrary waveforms and noise injection. When it becomes obvious you need one, buy a good one.Soldering- Buy a reasonably good soldering station with replaceable tips. I'd suggest Weller, Hakko, Metcal, etc. You want variable temperature control; leaded and lead free solder melt at different temperatures, and the thermal mass changes depending what you are soldering. Get a thinner pencil tip so you can do through hole and SMD with drag soldering.- small diameter solder.- good desoldering braid with a fine mesh.- liquid flux is your friend (kester flux pen or in bottle)- For Hot air, I'd recommend Hakko. They seemed to have the best price when I bought mine.Etching/PCB fabrication- While many will tell you just to send the board out and have it manufactured, I etch my own boards and am now playing with applying my own solder mask and using the toner transfer method for silk screen. You can wait five days to get a pretty board from a PCB manufacturer or spend two hours making a board. Its up to you. You can also etch your own solder stencils as well.Prototyping- If you are using breadboards, buy the flexible jumper wires. Don't buy the precut wires, but the flexible ones. Buy mostly male to male, but purchase some male to female and female to female. These are handy when you have exposed headers but need to connect to a female logic analyzer or female header. If you have a cat, buy twice as many as my cat likes to chew them to pieces if I leave them out.- Cables are handy. Buy BNC-aligator, BNC-BNC, BNC to mini-grabbers, mini-grabbers to mini-grabbers, post to aligator... you get the idea.Spectrum Analyzer:- You don't need one.VNA- Seriously, you don't need one. If you want to know what one is, find one of the analog scope guys (see above) and offer to clean the cat urine and dead mice out of their garage of analog oscilloscopes and they will teach you what they are. If they give you one of their scopes, graciously accept it and rent a box truck to help you get it home, or they may get offended.If you want to get into RF, disregard most of what I say.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 08:22:22 am
content: I have a more then average amount of gear (but compared to some here it is not much at all) I started as a hobby, but since a year repairing T&M (and calibration- ) gear repair is my living. My preferences for gear are related to my use for it. If you repair TV's you need other gear then someone who is prototyping high power motor controllers.If you do not know what specs you need for an instrument you do not need it. But I get the point. You have the cash now and the time and there is nothing wrong with being prepared so while in college (or howerver it is called in the usa) that time can be used for your study and using the gear.Stripping pcb's for parts is OK for some parts but save yourself a lot of time and problems and buy new what and when you need them.I used my handheld multimeters more as my benchmeters, now it is the way around (and for most because my Agilent needs to be recharged so often. (I have 2 rechargeable batteries to swap already) Besides that they stay put, do not fall and are fast.There are a few things I bought new over the years because they are the most important for my use. A DSO (Hameg 350 MHz), 2 multimeters: (Keithley 2000, Agilent handheld), and a LCRmeter (IET DE-5000) and a VNA (SDR-Kits VNWA)Besides that a new Weller WD-81, Metcal hot air and a used Pace MBT250 (because it came with a desolder handpiece)Other things I use a often: Function and pulse generators, curve-tracer, a few analog scopes (most are more or less permanent coupled to something)A lot of things I used, I build myself. The ones I use regularly are a powermeter, signal generator (25MHz to 2GHz), dynamic load, battery simulator, opamptester, inductor saturation tester. short-finders, voltage regulator-tester, opto-tester, 0-30mA current-source, components tester.And so will everybody have a different list.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 08:37:29 am
content: At school you want to learn about electronics, not about test equipment.Learning how to use (and not misuse) a piece of equipment takes alotof time, and will be out of date in a few years. At the momentyour time is better spent learning about the fundamentals that won't change over your career.Having said that, you need to knowwhenyouneedto use one piece of equipment rather than another - and then you should spend the time to learn how to use it.Professional engineers know how to do "more with less", i.e. "do for $1 what any fool can do for $2". In this context that implies being able todesignsomething so that it can be tested with simple equipment, and/or using whatever is to hand.So: don't buy anything until youknowwhy youneedit and can't do the same job with what you already have. Then borrow something or buy it cheaply. If you are certain that you will need a piece of equipment with a defined minimium specification regularly over the next few years, then buy the best you can afford. But knowing the "defined minimum specification" requires a lot ok knowledge and foresight!

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 08:55:03 am
content: QuoteBad idea. Set aside some of your budget to buy new components as and when you need them.With new parts from reputable suppliers, you know exactly what you're getting, you know they work, and you know they've not been abused or damaged. There's nothing at all good about wasting time chasing a problem that's down to faulty components.Buy your other equipment as and when you need it, don't rush to spend all you can on day one. If your first project doesn't require a function generator, then don't buy a function generator. Maybe your second, third and fourth projects won't need one either, but one of them really does need an FPGA board, or a CAN bus interface, a differential probe, or an active load. Don't assume that your lab will be all common, popular equipment and nothing specialised.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 12:04:17 pm
content: Next semester they have us building our own power supplies. Good advice. I will remember this.Quote from: nbritton on November 13, 2015, 06:01:19 am

author: George_Race
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 01:40:24 pm
content: Take a look at the picture of my test bench. Here is the link.http://www.mrrace.com/product_pages/other_items/MyTestBench/index.htmI do have several VOM/LCR/etc...meters and a nice solder station as well. Not shown in the picture.You are looking at equipment purchased on eBay and put back into great working conditions where necessary and all for less then $5000 over a period of 2 or so years, a piece at a time.And although not "Officially NIST Certified" the equipment meets the NIST standards for lab measurements for frequency.Keeping everything working together is the GPSDO that provides the 10 MHz Primary Standard frequency for the Sig Gen, Counter, & Spectrum Analyzer. A very good signal amplitude measurements standard, is provided by the HP 8466 Generator and Boonton 92EA RF Millivoltmeter.Good luck with your project, you an do it a piece at a time.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 04:10:51 pm
content: I ant to thank you for saying what I was thinking the whole time. It's not the first time I encounter something like this. From forum to forum and area of interest to area of interest,... you'll find the same behavior. I am trying so hard to not open my mouth, because I have a big mouth. I'm still not going to say anything, because I really do want to be a part of this community, so I will just keep my mouth shut.From what you have wrote and what others have wrote, I know what I have to do. I want to to thank you and the others for all the help. I'm going to start comprising a list of stuff, but im not going to purchase anything until about a week or two before my semester is over. This way I'll have everything right when classes are over. I wont be able to test anything out now because I have to much studying to do.Im going to buy things I know I need and I know what quality i need for each item based on it's importance. I'm probably going to spend the most on an oscilloscope because I know how important it is. Probably going to spend right around $1000 for one. Im eyeballing a Rigol DS2102A. A power supply, not sure yet. I'll have to read through your post carefully and see. I was considering getting a RIGOL DP1308A power supply. I dont need anything more than 25v, right now at least. The signal path reviewed it and he liked it. So that was good. I have to watch his other video on it though. It is a programmable supply. I know you said not to worry about getting one of these. We'll see what happens.I was thinking about getting a Siglent SDM3055 bench multimeter and maybe a Fluke 87v handheld to back up the Siglent. I cant believe how expensive the hand helds are! Holy hell! I remember the guy from the signal path saying that the lowest measurement of resistance is 200ohms for the Siglent which he said could make it harder to measure very small amounts of resistance. I checked the specs for the fluke and it's 50ohms which is better than the Siglent. This totally changes the way I look at hand helds. Anyways,... so yea. Thanks again for your help.Quote from: joesixpack on November 13, 2015, 06:56:10 am

author: NilByMouth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 04:26:34 pm
content: This makes me think of someone buying a BMW 7 Series as their first car. Seriously, limit your total budget to $1000 and get cheaper stuff so you get to know what you need as you use it, then get the expensive stuff afterwards.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 05:08:54 pm
content: This is a BMW 7 Series: agilent-keysight dsax92504a. The stuff I want to buy, more like a... I dont know. Whatever car that's not bottom of the line and nor top of the line.Quote from: NilByMouth on November 13, 2015, 04:26:34 pm

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 06:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: NilByMouth on November 13, 2015, 04:26:34 pmI don't agree with this, this kind of thinking is how people end up with 20 scopes. If you're committed to EE then get the best scope that you can reasonably afford. Quality gear can always be resold on eBay to recoup your money when you want to upgrade to an even better scope. A student needs something that is calibrated, reliable, and trustworthy.

author: joesixpack
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 07:31:06 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 13, 2015, 04:10:51 pmThere is nothing wrong with spending money or buying good tools. It's a personal decision. The DP1803A has a retail price of $908 and is an 80 triple output power supply. I haven't heard any bad things about that supply, which is rare for Rigol products.To give you an idea of what is out there, I just purchased a Keithley 2280s power supply (factory refurbished). It was ~$1300. It has a built in 6.5 digit meter and can measure current down to10 nanoAmps. But it's only a single channel 20V/6A supply. I'm going to use it on some battery powered embedded projects.I'm not recommending this meter to you, but if you go slow and have a list of things you want you can buy a lot better with not much more money. Keep an eye out for sales. Rigols do go on sale occasionally 25%-35% off.Quite frankly, I think you'll be happy no matter what supply you get or if you build your own.The best advice I could give is to take the time to research what makes one power supply better than another, and make your decision. Same for the other equipment.http://www.bkprecision.com/support/downloads/power-supply-guide.htmlhttp://www.delftek.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/HP-power-supply-handbook.pdfI can't find the other ones, but there are some guides and appnotes from the other manufacturers. When you become an EE, you are going to be doing this a lot- look at requirements, evaluating, shopping, rinse and repeat.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 08:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 13, 2015, 04:10:51 pmSpending $1k on a DP1308A would be a foolish allocation of limited resources. Power supplies are one area you can skimp on when getting started, honestly anything that moves electrons will get the job done. Take that money and put it towards a better scope.P.S. Stay away from Siglent, they have buggy firmware and unethical business practices.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 08:41:34 pm
content: Quote from: joesixpack on November 13, 2015, 07:31:06 pmGood advice, but I'd add "... better than another for X but not for Y".I also think that at thei stage the OP ought to spend time concentrating on fundamentals that will last a career, and not spend time on things that will be inimportant in a few years. Examples could include newer equipment, career path, or equipment becoming irrelevant, e.g ballistic galvanometers or (cough) analogue vs digital scopes.Learning how to use, say, a spectrum analyser effectively takes a lot of time; there will always be time for that later - provided the OP knows when to use a SA and when to use a NA or MDA or....QuoteAnd learning how to do research and to distinguish between "musts", "wants" and "wouldn't it be nice ifs" will always be useful in any job - technical or otherwise.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 09:14:03 pm
content: Thank you. I am very much committed to EE. I'll research everything thanks.Quote from: nbritton on November 13, 2015, 06:43:13 pm

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 09:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 13, 2015, 09:14:03 pmIn that case there is an argument that you aren't pushing hard enoughMore seriously, it is difficult to predict what you will need in 5 years time, so don't bet too much on your prediction! IMNSHO it is sensible to only buy (or beg or borrow) stuff when you have aneedfor it.

author: Weistek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 09:28:10 pm
content: Scope : rigal ds1054z (4ch 100mhz)Bench meter : HP 3478a (awsome meter, may need internal battery changed)Solder station : hakko fx951 (best solder station I have ever used)Psu analog : HP 6230 (something in that line)Digital psu : hp E3620a.Function generator : anything wavetek is good, you can get 5~50MHz gens fairly cheap.This was my setup when I started my lab doing EE in collage. It's have grown a lot since. But this should get you started.Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

author: Weistek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 09:30:49 pm
content: Also old fluke bench meters are good.Handheld meter, Brymens are good.Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 06:38:41 am
content: Thanks guys:)@ tggzzz - I totally get what you mean! EE is a new thing for me, and I'm afraid I don't know enough to make the claim that I'll need better gear right away. LOL. BUT! Given all of the other times in the past where I wish I had better gear to do greater work... I wouldn't be surprised if if happened again with EE.The thing is that I have always had to improvise with equipment to get certain things done. Some of the stuff I have done was really dangerous too. I'm kind of tired of wishing I had better stuff. I dont have a huge problem with improvising; I think it's a skill in itself, but now I have the opportunity to buy buy all the "better" gear. So I want to do that. If I max out my gear right away then I max my gear out right away. Maybe I wont. But at least I got to buy the gear I really wanted to get. It's kind of a personal thing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 08:46:15 am
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 15, 2015, 06:38:41 amGood. That is a valuable skill you will use repeatedly in your professional life.That is especially true if you are pushing the boundaries of the possible or known, because you can't buy the equipment and have to make it yourself.Conversely, if you are doing a standard repetitive task then it makes commercial sense to get precise niche equipment you need for your task. Niche = expensive, of course.QuoteSafety is one are where you must spend the money. It presupposes you know enough to recognise the danger and know how to avoid it. Too many don't

author: Awesome14
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:26:10 pm
content: Growing up I purchased what I needed as I needed it. The Fluke 8842A is probably better than Fluke's current 5.5 digit bench meter. I had two of them. But, then 6.5 digit meters took over, and I switched. Experience and technique make any equipment work much better. I can use whatever is available and get the job done. That's the mark of a good EE. Anyone can do good work if there is no limit to budget. With a few tricks you can really get some mileage out of you equipment.And I liked the response about learning how the equipment works and what makes a really nice piece of equipment really nice.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 06:50:29 am
content: Hey everyone. Didnt want to create a new thread about the same thing so im going to continue posting here about purchasing equipment. Just want to know about a few pieces of equpiment. Power supply. I found one that is not programmable. Its the BK Precision 1760a. Anyone have experience with it? It's 0-30v, 0-5A, and it has fine adjustment knobs, tiple output.Also for a DMM, a benchtop, a Rigol DM3058E. Anyone ever use it? Also i was thinking about getting a Fluke 87-5, but damn its expensive. I wouldnt mind saving some money on a handheld DMM with true RMS. Any suggest a cheaper model, thats just about as good with temp sensing?For an oscilloscope, not even going to mention what im getting because its stupid expensive and dont want to hear the you dont need that remarks. Pretty sure im getting this model, just trying to figureout how much to not spend on it.Can anyone recommend a really decent waveform generator?

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 06:59:59 am
content: Also, are there usually some good black friday/ cyber monday sales on equipment? Im thinking yes bit considering its specialized equipment, i dont know.

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 07:06:17 am
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 23, 2015, 06:59:59 amI plan to get some equipment such as the Quick 957D rework station from Adafruit which will likely have a discount code for BF/CM. If you're looking for a good deal on the Brymen meters, watch for a sale from Sear's and search for the equivalent Greenlee / Extech models. I purchased the Greenlee DM-510A for less than the net price of the BM257S from Franky, AND it came with a free HDTV!For more specialized stuff, Zoro just had a 25% sale on pricier items such as bench multimeters.For multimeters, the new 5.5 digit Siglent meter might be a good fit for you if you want an interface more polished than the Rigol's. Consider the Brymen BM257S / Greenlee DM-510A for your handheld meter, you can't go wrong.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 07:59:31 am
content: I am assuming that since you mentioned you were looking at getting either the Rigol DS2072A, DS2202 or DS2202A that you either don't know that the DS2072A can be hacked into the DS2202A (or even the DS2302A) or you have a moral objection to doing the hack. If its a moral objection then I understand and please ignore this post. If not then you should know that the DS2072A and DS2202A contain the same hardware, just software crippled and its trivial to unlock the extra bandwidth and options. There are multiple threads on the forum explaining how to do it and for a student on a budget it definitely makes sense to save the extra $900 (or extra $1600 vs the DS2302A). I would also recommend against getting the builtin signal generator (DS2072A-S) and getting a standalone generator.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 09:04:27 am
content: Quote from: CustomEngineerer on November 23, 2015, 07:59:31 amI actually want to get the DS4024. 200mhz, 4 channels, and 4GSa/s sample rate. Beautiful. It's pretty badass. I sent tequipment.net an email about making a purchase and if they have any deals for customers that spend over a certain amount. I know im not going to spend as much as some people or even as much as what some single pieces of equipment go for, but i thought it couldnt hurt to ask.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 09:05:22 am
content: Ill keep this in mind:) Thanks:)

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 10:06:11 am
content: With the strong support of the Rigol DS1000Zs and DS2000As I can understand the thinking that the DS4000 must really be killer but I'd strongly urge you to search the forum for threads on the DS4000. What makes the DS1000Z and DS2000As so attractive is their relatively low cost for the feature set. But once you start getting up to the price of the DS4000s the value for the money really starts to go down and the firmware issues are a bigger disappointment when you are spending that much money. Its your money so get what you think will make you happy, but you had mentioned wanting to get the best you can get for your money, and something that you won't outgrow, and the DS4000 just doesn't seem to fit that description.Edit: I don't have a DS4000 and I haven't used one so my opinion is just based on what I've heard from other people that went that route. I've had the DS2072A-S for about a year.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 10:37:35 am
content: Ok, ill search around this forum for what others had mentioned about this oscilloscope. Thanks. I'm not looking to hack any equipment at the moment so yea.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 11:13:53 am
content: I spec'd a DS4054 for the office a few years ago.Make sure you get a good demo before parting with any cash, and by 'good', I mean a couple of days' loan. Not just a quick sales pitch.The DS4000 series has a feature set that puts a lot of ticks in boxes, but as a day-to-day instument to use and make a living with, I'm glad I have an Agilent 3000X instead. One scope is clearly designed to ensure its manufacturer has a competitive offering at a particular point in the marketplace, while the other is a scope designed by engineers to meet the technical and usability requirements of other engineers.

author: PaulStoffregen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 03:02:24 pm
content: Certainly Rigol is an excellent buy for 3-digit dollars. If you're just getting started with electronics, the DS1054Z is a great place to start. Unless you already have quite a lot of experience using oscilloscopes, in the long run you'll probably save much more than $400 by learning first on a DS1054Z. It's also quite capable, so odds are also good you won't feel much need to buy anything better for quite a long time. By then, better products will exist.But if you are going to spend more now, I'd also recommend looking at Keysight (formerly Agilent) if you're looking going to spend much more than those low-end Rigol scopes. I have an Agilent on my desk, and I've used the Rigol scopes several times. I'd say the Agilent is about 2X, maybe 3X nicer, for about 10X the price.The trouble with online spec lists is they lack the truly important things, like how responsive the user interface is (especially as more features are turned on), how free of bugs and poor design the firmware is, whether the front panel is easy to learn and use, and whether the rapid capture rate and intensity grading actually helps you to notice some infrequent behavior. Many products exist with impressive spec lists, which are intended to sway inexperienced buyers and non-technical people like managers and purchasing agents who are often the people that make the purchase decisions in corporate settings.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 04:09:18 am
content: Quote from: PaulStoffregen on November 23, 2015, 03:02:24 pmYea I was looking at the Agilents and theyvare nice. I was checking out Agilent DSOX2014A. I think its the maximum in price in price im willing to go. Its 100mhz and has a 2g sample rate. It only has 100kpts mem depth though? The rigols have like 12Mpts mem depth. Whats up with that? I want something that going to give me good detail. I want to be able to zoom in nicely on a waveform. I want to be able to see whats going on with these waveforms as im messing around building stuff. I really dont want to buy a basic or base model scope. I might be happy with it when it comes in the mail and first start using it, but ibk know that im going to learn real quick and will be inhappy with it shortly after. I will be using this thing to learn and maybe even to make money someday soon. I dont know.I just got all the money i asked for so i know how much total i can spend. But have no idea what to get. This is very frustrating.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 04:10:35 am
content: Quote from: PaulStoffregen on November 23, 2015, 03:02:24 pmYea I was looking at the Agilents and theyvare nice. I was checking out Agilent DSOX2014A. I think its the maximum in price in price im willing to go. Its 100mhz and has a 2g sample rate. It only has 100kpts mem depth though? The rigols have like 12Mpts mem depth. Whats up with that? I want something that going to give me good detail. I want to be able to zoom in nicely on a waveform. I want to be able to see whats going on with these waveforms as im messing around building stuff. I really dont want to buy a basic or base model scope. I might be happy with it when it comes in the mail and first start using it, but ibk know that im going to learn real quick and will be inhappy with it shortly after. I will be using this thing to learn and maybe even to make money someday soon. I dont know.I just got all the money i asked for so i know how much total i can spend. But have no idea what to get. This is very frustrating.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 08:20:35 am
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 23, 2015, 09:04:27 amUnless you have a moral objection to hacking, that is a bad choice because the DS4014 can be software hacked to 600 MHz, just like the DS4024. I own an MSO4014, I have nothing bad to say about it yet, but I've only owned it for a month. I got a really really good deal on mine, if it wasn't for that I wouldn't have bought it. If you can afford it look into the Tektronix MDO3014, this scope can be hacked to 500 MHz. I don't recommend Keysight or LeCroy because nobody knows how to hack them yet.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 08:32:28 am
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 25, 2015, 04:10:35 amHow much is all the money that you asked for? Do you want 2 or 4 analog channels? Do you want integrated logic analyzer for mixed signal capabilities? Do you want an arbitrary waveform generator? Do you want a spectrum analyzer? I just went through this process myself and it is very frustrating.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 07:02:14 pm
content: Make sure you budget in cables, probes, leads and adapters. Good quality ones can be outrageously expensive. I'm talking little things like high quality BNC cables, 50 ohm terminators, tee adapters and couplers. A single terminator can cost over $75!Here eBay can save you some money. I see Pomona 50 ohm cable sets going for peanuts all the time (they generally come from decommissioned ATE setups or the like). Used 50 ohm terminators are also a safe bet, so long as the resistor hasn't been burnt out. Easy enough to test.Stick with brands like Pomona, Tektronix or HPilentsight. Don't pay too much, wait for a deal.Sent from my Tablet

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 08:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: nbritton on November 25, 2015, 08:32:28 amI have a little over 6000 to spend on equipment. I'm willing to spend every single penny on a penny on building a lab. I have a feeling I wont have any equipment purchased and ready to go for next semester. I'm going to slow down with this and think............

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 08:22:11 pm
content: Quote from: nbritton on November 25, 2015, 08:20:35 amThe DS4000 is a good oscilloscope if you get a good deal. One additional detail: when searching around, keep in mind that an extensive thread about the DS4000 lists several bugs that were already fixed.

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 09:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 25, 2015, 08:22:11 pmI found thread and it turned me off from buying the scope. Let me ask you, how is it that the Rigol scopes have 12 and 14Mpts mem depth and the Agilents only have like 100kpts per channel?? I saw. Siglent with 28Mpts! Whats going on with that? Also, some scopes say 2Gs/s total and it splits per channel. The more channels you use at once, the more its split, fine. Some say 1Gs/s each channel. Thats seems better, right? It says per channel, im assuming the total is 1Gs/s but each channel is 1Gs/s. Im checking out the Agilent MSOX2012A, butbit does specify a sampling rate in the spec. At least on this website tequipment. Also Rohde & Schwarz HMO724 or HMO1024. The R&S ones say "MSO (Mixed Signal Opt. HO3508) with 8 Logic Channels." I guess that means its an option? Not included?

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 09:22:46 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 25, 2015, 08:22:11 pmI found thread and it turned me off from buying the scope. Let me ask you, how is it that the Rigol scopes have 12 and 14Mpts mem depth and the Agilents only have like 100kpts per channel?? I saw. Siglent with 28Mpts! Whats going on with that? Also, some scopes say 2Gs/s total and it splits per channel. The more channels you use at once, the more its split, fine. Some say 1Gs/s each channel. Thats seems better, right? It says per channel, im assuming the total is 1Gs/s but each channel is 1Gs/s. Im checking out the Agilent MSOX2012A, butbit does specify a sampling rate in the spec. At least on this website tequipment. Also Rohde & Schwarz HMO724 or HMO1024. The R&S ones say "MSO (Mixed Signal Opt. HO3508) with 8 Logic Channels." I guess that means its an option? Not included?

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 09:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 25, 2015, 08:22:11 pmI found that thread and it turned me off from buying that scope. Let me ask you, how is it that the Rigol scopes have 12 and 14Mpts mem depth and the Agilents only have like 100kpts per channel?? I saw. Siglent with 28Mpts! Whats going on with that? Also, some scopes say 2Gs/s total and it splits per channel. The more channels you use at once, the more its split, fine. Some say 1Gs/s each channel. Thats seems better, right? It says per channel, im assuming the total is 1Gs/s but each channel is 1Gs/s. Im checking out the Agilent MSOX2012A, butbit does specify a sampling rate in the spec. At least on this website tequipment. Also Rohde & Schwarz HMO724 or HMO1024. The R&S ones say "MSO (Mixed Signal Opt. HO3508) with 8 Logic Channels." I guess that means its an option? Not included?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 09:48:49 pm
content: The Agilent scopes are based on an in-house ASIC, which doesn't support external memory. One of the most obvious differences between a 2000X scope and a 3000X is the memory depth.You can't zoom in very far on a 2000X, though once you've set the trigger correctly, that's not nearly as big a problem as many people would have you believe. Until a few years ago I was regularly using a scope with no real zoom capability at all, and it really wasn't an issue.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 11:02:04 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on November 25, 2015, 09:24:51 pmThe Rigol 4000 series has 140 Mpts and true segmented memory, using the segmented memory is how you should do triggered decoding on this scope. On the 4000 series the sample rate is 4 GSa/s if using channels 1 and 3 or 2 and 4, however, if you use channels 1 and 2 and/or 3 and 4 together then the sample rate halves to 2 GSa/s. On the Rigol DS1054Z, the 1 GSa/s quoted is only when using one channel; the sample rate halves to 500 MSa/s if you use two channels and halves again to 250 MSa/s if you use four channels. If you know about Nyquist then you will know that the absolute minimum sampling rate needed to measure a signal is twice the frequency, however, in practice this is usually not enough to faithfully reproduce a signal, and in reality the bare minimum is closer to five times the frequency. This means that a 250 MSa/s sample rate is only enough to faithfully reproduce a 50 MHz signal. Whereas the 4 GSa/s can faithfully reproduce an 800 MHz signal. Aliasing is what happens if you don't have enough sample rate and this can cause havoc with your measurements. Also remember that for square waves you need to be able to capture at least the 7th harmonic, so for a 100 MHz square wave you would want a 700 MHz bandwidth scope if your goal is to faithfully reproduce the signal on the screen.http://www.ni.com/white-paper/10669/en/

author: NilByMouth
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2015, 12:06:45 pm
content: I definitely recommend getting an analogue scope with similar bandwidth as well. Sometimes it will help give a clearer picture of what's happening than a DSO.