Affordable 4Channel MSO ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 08:05:50 am
content: Hi,I'm looking for a 4 Channels Oscilloscope with a Logic analyzer >= 16 Inputs would be good.I would hope for a price below 500€ incl. tax. and a reseller inside the EU.I was looking on some Regol models but found only prices above 600€And advice would be greatly appreciated.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 10:17:09 am
content: Rigol MSO1074z is the best available for the money in your range.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 11:24:29 am
content: I'd think again about the requirement for 16 logic channels. 8 channels is more than enough to make an oscilloscope screen crowded. A seperate logic analyser would make more sense.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 03:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: nixfu on November 21, 2014, 10:17:09 amAgreed, I don't know of any other MSOs with 4 analogue channels at that end of the market.After a good deal of investigation myself a month or so ago, with similar requirements to yourself, I purchased the MSO1074Z-S and for the money I'm very happy with it. The -S has the two channel arb, which is handy to have. I was looking for a reasonably priced scope for field use, although I've found I do use its arb quite a bit in the lab.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 08:45:49 pm
content: Well I guess 8 logic inputs would also be enough if that would be considerably cheaper.4 Scope channels are a must I have a dual channel DSO currently and 2 is not enough for me, what I would like would be an extra trigger in, in addition to the 4 channels but only scopes with that I saw ware really expensive....Where would be a cheep source for a MSO1074z I goggled a little bit around for that model and I see quite a big price spread, so I guess there must also be cheaper offerings than what I've seen (640€) i just need to know where they are.Also how hackable is the MSO1074z ?An other option would indeed be a DS1054Z for 300€ + a logic analyzer for up to 340€ that may not be a stupid idea indeed.I would guess for far below 300€ one could get a PC based protocol analyzer that would be btter than a stndaloen device anyways as one can than process/decode the data with an own application, assuming the driver provides a publicly documented API.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 09:13:01 pm
content: Checkhttp://tequipment.netfor the price. Eevblog members also get a 6% discount, as, someone for the discount code.And yes the 1074z is totally hackable, search the forum.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 09:21:11 pm
content: Saleae has a new range of digital + analog products which may meet the OP's requirements.https://www.saleae.com/

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 03:33:48 am
content: What about a DS1054Z and a Saleae Logic product?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 04:55:15 am
content: Quote from: nixfu on November 21, 2014, 09:13:01 pmThe MSO1074Z doesn't yet have the generally available hacks that the DS1074Z has due to the different way the keys work.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 07:11:18 am
content: a MSO1074Z + Saleae16 -> 300€ + 400€ = 700€Saleae16 looks to expensive for me 400€ for a PC based logic analyzer is in my opinion a factor of 2 to expensive.I have a china clone of one of their earlier models 8 digital channels only it cosed 12€ while iirc the original was priced at 100 or 200$now the new models including the smaller once are not longer that simple build but given the experience I assume they still make too much profit on each unit.http://tequipment.netis US based I need something EU based, also their price as its in the US stated without tax is higher than the EU price already including tax (http://www.rekirsch.at/Rigol+MSO1000Z,i5.htm) so a 6% discount still would result in a higher price and that don't even take into account shipment...I know that given the typical prices of such hardware my complaints may sound like wining over nothing, but for a student 500€ is a cr4p10ad or money, and to know that this devices don't cost in the manufacturer nearly as much as their retail price just makes it worst.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 07:21:52 am
content: Note that the new range of Saleae devices do BOTH analog AND digital, so you could argue that you don't ALSO need an oscilloscope. Depending on what you are measuring, of course. If you have a very limited budget, you must expect to live within your means.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 07:27:36 am
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 07:11:18 amAnd I'm guessing you go right ahead and use the software they developed, which is what they're really charging for, and you didn't pay for? Thought so.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 07:49:49 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 22, 2014, 07:27:36 amI have one of the 20 buck Saleae clones. This works on it and is nice and legal.http://sigrok.org/Not perfect, but if you have a clone give it a go.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 08:20:36 am
content: Talking about the new Saleae units, the Saleae 16 Pro says:Sample Rate (max): 500MS/sFastest Digital Signal: 100MHzwhat does that mean? I would expect the two being the same number... they might be oversampling but is it needed to do that with a factor of 5?And what are the data here on the MSO1074z Google says 1 GSa/s @ 8ch and 500MS/s @ 16CH what is that now the rate it samples internally of the "Fastest Digital Signal"?Also Google says memory depth: 12 Mpts @ 8CH, 6 Mpts @ 16CH thats like not even a second at any decent speed.If thats all the MSO1074z can its a deal breaker right away...Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 22, 2014, 07:21:52 amWell in my opinion only with regard to mandatory costs, a.k.a. costs that are related to the production of every individual unit, not R&D/Software as that is a one time investment and selling a unit at mandatory costs + 10% already is not a lost for the company.People without a limited budget have plenty of disposable income to pay for R&D/Software for all of the remaining 99% of the world.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 08:23:16 am
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 08:20:36 amGo run a company with that attitude, see how long you last.You clearly aren't going to be satisfied unless you get a $10k machine for $400.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 08:32:13 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 21, 2014, 09:21:11 pmExcept:a) The 'oscilloscope' part is crapb) No real-time display of anything (do they even count as oscilloscopes...?)c) Are they actually available to buy yet? They've been a kickstarter for years with no product.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 08:37:49 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 22, 2014, 08:23:16 amNo I just want a $2k machine for $400, thats reasonableNo seriously, do you know what a MDSN account (DreamSpark Premium) for a university department costs? 500€ for 3 years, that is everything MS ever made in every quantity, except Office. And they are still in busyness.It is perfectly OK to give away your products as long as you do that to an audience that wouldn't buy it for the normal retail price int he first place. Why shouldn't that apply to Hardware except that instead of for free you give it away for the raw manufacturing costs with a spatial fully featured but only allowed for research and educational use firmware.People that want to tinker at their homes with electronics don't have the money to spend $10 on a machine, and honestly no company would spent $10 on a machine just to tinker with it, they do that expecting at some point a cost return through using or renting the device.It is insane to expect people that are going to use a machine to play with, to pay the same price as people expecting to earn money by working with the machine.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:00:55 am
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 08:37:49 amMicrosoft are an immense business and cover their costs via normal sales. Software is not a one-off cost. Not remotely. That you think it is betrays you as naive in the extreme.What do you think pays for their website? For their support team? For them continuing to refine the software?Yes, Saleae are expensive. They are niche products, and quite nice ones at that.QuoteIt is insane to expect a small company to give you their product for free just because youclaimyou're not going to make money from it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:14:08 am
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 08:37:49 amIsn't that exactly what Rigol is doing with the DS1054Z? Everybody knows how to unlock the extra bandwidth/features so if you're prepared to hack it you can get their 1100 Euro 'scope for 300 Euros. Companies, etc., will still buy the full DS1104Z.And...just like Microsoft they also have an interest in getting the young hackers used to the "Rigol" brand so that's the hardware they'll buy at full price when they go to get a proper job.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:38:32 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2014, 09:14:08 amYes and thats great!But the issue is not with Rigol but with Saleae Logic analyzer's that are possibly very overpriced while still being targeted on the enthusiast not commercial market.Quote from: Monkeh on November 22, 2014, 09:00:55 amI never used their support. And continuing to refine the software should be payed by the commercial users with disposable income or whom expect a return on investment.Quote from: Monkeh on November 22, 2014, 09:00:55 amThats what firmware licenses are for.Do you seriously expect a home user of an really expensive peace of equipment to ever have a return of investment? Seriously? Seriously?!Now please lets go back to topic.....Thinking about the limitations of the MSO1074z mostly the memory depth of only 12 Mpts @ 8CH, 6 Mpts @ 16CH...I never used a standalone protocol analyzer, only the Saleae unit evaluating the dumped data streams with own software/scripts.Here I head basically a endless memory depth streaming to SSD...I'm aware that that probably wont be the case with the MSO1074z as using its GBit connection I could stream with at most 100 Mb/s (thats neglecting almost any overhead that may there be) so 100 MHz with 8 channels or 50MHz with 16 channels. If the unit even supports this, what it may not.Does it?Now obviously to watch logic levels in real time you need only 60Hz LOL...So my question would be what use there is from a 1GS/s logic analyzer with only a 12 Mpts memory depth, I understand that you can trigger this on a significant event but what are the typical use cases here?Despite of my desire to have a MSO, I guess I may be better of with a DS1054Z and some reasonably priced PC based Logic analyzer that wont have a limited memory depth...what do you think?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:41:42 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2014, 09:14:08 amIt is very clever marketing trick after they hit it useful perhaps with DS1052E years agoa after someone hack and Rigol fast find what was result. Sales rise as Shenyang J-15. There is not any other thing what have rised popularity so much than this nearly free trick for trig Rigol avalanche to markets. And it continue and perhaps they even accelerate this. Secret is also to keep peoples interest of it. Hack details need change after time to time so that peoples feel they really get something "free". All understand this if they just stop this and close hack and tell that before we sell 50MHz model with price a. Now you can not buy 50MHz model. Only 100MHz model. Price is same. But no any possible to hack (with any cheap method). (It can do easy)And also Rigol (as many other maanufacturers) know one thing what not discussed so much example here in this forum.It is fact that all serious professional lab need valid calibration certificate for every equipment they use.They can not hack!If model is (example) Rigol DS1054Z. Calibration certificate read that this is DS1054Z scope and its serial number. In calibration lab who write cal certificate they use exatly these specifications and limits what manufacturer give for this model. If someone hack scope so that it change, this cal certificate is not anymore valid. After then all tests what have made using this cal void scope neet push to trash can.I think also world need somehow "weak up" for this fact that today many scopes and other test/measurement tools can not seal using calibration void seal because possibility for changes can not lock. Also keeping all cal certificates up to date is not cheap process. One certificate for one year may cost more than whole oscilloscope. Who can ever proof that FW update do not change things so that after then cal certificate is not valid.If this kind of professional user need 100MHz oscilloscope he really do not buy 50MHz scope and hack it for 100MHz model.Keeping all in lab so that lab meets standards is not at all cheap and simple. Of course there is lot of peoples who do not even know what is calibration certificate. (example one "calibration certificate" coming with Rigol can not use for any purpose, (if really deed meet standards in developed world) it is just as value of toilet paper.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 09:57:55 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on November 22, 2014, 09:41:42 amI dint think thats always true,for example my lab at university don't care bout calibration just about warranty and fast repair if something breaks.My Prof. never wanted anything hacked or so as he has enough disposable funding to pay for it, but because of warranty and not breaking and not calibration.But on topic what would be the typical use cases of a standalone logic analyzer that has a limited memory depth?Other than looking with your 60Hz resolving eyes on the states in real time.I wonder if I would be better suited with a Bus Pirate (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Bus_Pirate) + DSO instead of an MSOEDIT: uuuuu!!! that looks promissinghttp://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/DSLogic-p-2184.htmlShould I open a separate thread on cheep logic analyzers?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:03:54 am
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 09:38:32 amI think so too.The "logic analysis" part of the MS1000Z seems very weak to me. Even if we ignore the limited memory it doesn't do much more than view the signals. There's no decoding or anything like that.

author: Creep
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:06:09 am
content: What the author doesn't seem to realise is that the manufacturing cost of a device is not the only expense the a company has. You do realise it costs a boatload of money to design and enginieer products, right? And seeing as you yourself pointed out (though I'm not entirely sold on this one), the Saleae products are aimed at the home users. In that case why do you expect that the commercial users are going to buy the hobby equipment instead of that designed for commercial use? Scope's and LA's aren't a mass-consumer product, nobody is going to sell millions of copies of them like, for example, cell phones. So companies need to up the price by quite a bit to even pay for the enginieering costs, let alone get any profit out of it. So in the end it all comes down to the price tag you see today.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:08:03 am
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 09:57:55 amDon't underestimate the value of that...Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 09:57:55 amNo. There's far too many of them and the real value of a logic analyzer is in the software. You can't see that in the adverts.PS: The bus pirate isn't really a logic analyser, it's a prototyping device.PPS: And you haven't said what you want the logic analyser for.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:10:34 am
content: the mso1000 series does serial decoding or i2c or spi as well, not only display the logic signals.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:17:07 am
content: Quote from: Creep on November 22, 2014, 10:06:09 amI'm not sure Salae have done their business plan correctly. Maybe their target market can't support that many expensive designer offices and company cars.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:19:04 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on November 22, 2014, 10:10:34 amThe DS1054Z can do that too.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:23:52 am
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 09:57:55 amSome people need tools for test and measure and characterize physical layer. Risetimes, jitters, tresholds, timing over different transmission lines and electronics.Some peoples are interested for analyze what data/messages is transmitted and received and analyze / sniff these messages.These are some amount of different things.(oscilloscopes implemented "simply" "logic analyzers" are not good in this and they are not good also if want know what are messages over physical layer and protocol. They are not perfect tool for anything but with these can do some amount both. )If want "record" data transmission long time and then with good handy tools analyze what data there is in messages... it need somethong other than cheap or medium class oscilloscope with digital inputs (MSO)

author: Creep
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:29:53 am
content: You can't seriously expect a company to working without profit. Remember, every company's aim is profit, not charity. So you would have liked them to work in rotten basements with mice running around? Everyone thrives for better working conditions, for themselves and their workers.You seem to be misinterpreting my previous reply: I'm not saying companies work without profit, I said they need to raise the price tag way above the manufacturing costs for the development of the device to even pay off. So the price is then raised even more. Any sane company would keep raising the prices to the point where they feel the sales might start dropping too much to realistically go any further. That's why it's called a bussiness.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:37:52 am
content: Quote from: Creep on November 22, 2014, 10:06:09 amI'm perfectly aware of that, I just argue that not all customers of a company should be asked to pay equal for that overhead expenses, instead the amount should depend on if they just want to play/learn with it or actually going to work with it and are expecting a return on investment at some point.Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2014, 10:08:03 amI don't i know that thats use fullQuoteTo be honest I don't care for the software if I get a C++ lib to talk to the driver and get the raw recorded data, I can and do write my own software to evaluate the recorded data.So I only need a solid hardware that I can in the end dump the raw data to SSD...QuoteI would just say everything... I don't really have a plan right now what to do with a fast logic analyzer...I first look for a solution and than search for a problem to solve with... and learn something in the process...For example:Something that is also to expensive are KVM over IP solutions, I would really like to have one, but paying more than 100€ would be stupid as I can use VNC and if my home server stuck on some boot screen boot screen I can always call my mum and guide her by phone to properly reboot the machine to a state where i can continue with VNC.But I still would like to have one so I already thought a few times about building one my self, thats not so trivial as its a lot of data to handle. I think a logic analyzer would come in handy here for example.Next example:Something that is also to expensive are Head mounted displays, especially the military monocular once, I got a pair of old vuzix vga gaming glasses of ebay to build a monocular HMD out of that worked until one day the electronic broke i have an other pair in normal working condition. So I could find out how to drive the micro displays of the broken unit directly and use them for something.Other slow things I can do already now with the Salae I would just like more channels much more channels.Quoteand what else?

author: Creep
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 01:32:53 pm
content: So, if Rigol for example makes a scope targeted at the hobby audience, then who is going to pay for it's engineering costs? It's not like all that many commercial costumers are going to be buying it. And in case you are thinking that they are going to earn their share by selling the higher end scopes, then why in the world would they bother making the entry-level scopes in the first place?In my opinion the only ones who should receive any support like this (i.e. price reduction), if anyone at all, are the engineering students. Those are the people that could potentially leave their mark in the industry and their studies should be supported and encouraged. I mean, how often do these "tinkerers" become engineers? And in the end, this kind of support usually comes from the government or the real big time organizations like Microsoft etc.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 02:24:04 pm
content: They should not make any scopes targeted on hobby users, just sell normal scopes at half the price or below to the hobby users.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 02:27:57 pm
content: What the author doesn't seem to realise is that the manufacturing cost of a device is not the only expense the a company has.I'm perfectly aware of that, I just argue that not all customers of a company should be asked to pay equal for that overhead expenses, instead the amount should depend on if they just want to play/learn with it or actually going to work with it and are expecting a return on investment at some point.OK, so you manufacture a 200USD widget for the professional market. With manufacturing costs, R&D and operating costs running 150USD, you get 50USD profit per device. I come along and ask you to sell me your widget for 150USD because I am a hobbyist. For whatever reason, you agree and sell it to me at break even price. Now, I tell all my friends and they come to you wanting the same deal. Are you going to say no after you did it for me? Now you aren't making any money to pay your bills and give your family the quality of life your employees have. Oh, by the way, I lied about being a hobbyist. I am doing a small start up to manufacture my own widgets and I am trying to cut my R&D costs by getting equipment cheap.I might consider an educational discount with a verifiable .edu email address, a current copy of report card and a letter of recommendation from your professor as to the usefullness of the item for your learning. However, I won't sell it for cost, I will still make some profit on it.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 02:40:52 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 22, 2014, 02:27:57 pmOnly because you in this case play a layer and a cheat does not mean that every company must ripoff honest people just wanting to learn more about electronics or kill some spare time building something to make their own live easier.PS: pleas stop the offtopic, we are here not in a economy board, but in a hardware/electronics board.Some input about the usefulness or lack there of of a MSO would be more appropriate.Trax

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 03:11:29 pm
content: I think having digital channels on an oscilloscope makes it more versatile. In my experience an MSO can do 95% of the logic analysis tasks you may encounter so it is definitely worth it to have digital channels on an oscilloscope but only up to 8 channels.

author: Trax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 03:56:14 pm
content: Could you please elaborate a bit more on what would be the typical logic analysis tasks you may encounter?

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 10:05:21 pm
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 02:24:04 pmWhat a ridiculous thing to say. You ignorance on the way business (and the world in general) works is astounding.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2014, 11:15:28 pm
content: Specially when a big buyer (commercial user) is more likely to get a better discount than a single buyer (hobby user)Yeah, I also wished everything I want had a special price just for me but my work to be paid at a higher rate than the rest as well.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 01:46:11 am
content: Quote from: Trax on November 22, 2014, 03:56:14 pmAnything goes... checking SPI, I2C, UART communication, timings on an LCD display, signals from an FPGA, etc, etc.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2014, 02:23:34 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 23, 2014, 01:46:11 amOf course a "Saleae Logic Analyzer" is more of a logic decoder. I'm not sure about the newer stuff. It is a useful tool but not a real Logic Analyzer.