Differences in Car Batteries? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2017, 10:05:34 pm
content: My car is due for a new battery. I'm well aware of varying quality of "regular" batteries (Lithium Ion, NiCad, Alkaline etc...), but not having much experience with different types of car batteries, I thought I'd ask the question in case there were some things to look out for.Not sure the cranking amps of the current battery (and it's raining outside so I don't really want to check right now). It's just starting a 5-cyl petrol engine.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2017, 10:30:19 pm
content: Not stating car make, model, year etc., not a lot can be said.The interesting parameter on car batteries is form factor: will it fit?Apart from that, they'll all have sufficient CCA.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2017, 10:37:47 pm
content: I meant in terms of different chemistries, brand vs. quality, maintenance-free vs. maintenance accessible types etc...At the moment it has a #3664 battery in it (CCA 700A, 279x175x190mm size, Calcium type, made in USA).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2017, 10:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 28, 2017, 10:37:47 pmStick with similar, Ca types have given me good service.But if you're prepared to shell out more $ for a much better battery have a look at the USA Optima range.https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/redtop-starting-battery

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2017, 11:20:08 pm
content: I have not found a great deal of difference from one brand to another. Lead-acid car batteries have changed very little over the past 120 years or so. It's a very mature technology, the construction is very simple and there are only so many shortcuts they can take.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 01:36:57 am
content: I'd check the manual what kind of battery should go in the car. Modern cars can be very picky to the point you have to tell the ECU what kind of battery capacity is installed so the charging systems knows how to charge it properly. Oh and size matters. I had to use the manual adjustment tool and vise to change the bracket which holds the battery in my car because the new battery was slightly higher.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 01:42:03 am
content: I've usually just gone to the autoparts store, looked up in the book or computer and selected one of the batteries that is listed to fit my car, never had any trouble with that. My cars are rather old but I would assume the same process works for most newer cars.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 01:59:12 am
content: There really is a difference in batteries. I've had *great* experience over the years with Aussie made Exide batteries. Repco re-brand these as their top of the range units.The differences between batteries are generally in construction. Deeper wells under the plates to hold material shed from the plates, thicker plates to withstand more corrosion, better seals, more catalyst for gas recombination.The Optima batteries get a great review, but they are relatively expensive.I just stick with the top of the range Repco units, or Exide branded, but only because after years of cheaping out I've had good results with those personally (6-7 years on average). YMMV obviously.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 02:06:08 am
content: Ive always found the best results with fitting the biggest damn battery that will go in the compartment. Simple wet lead acid batteries are fine. My biggest one is a Century 720 cold cranking amp battery, on a 2.5L 6 cylinder. I keep them maintained with a "smart" battery charger, and I get many years of service life out of them.However it's not always easy with modern vehicles and the push to reduce the engine compartment size.Since this is an EE forum, a cool idea which I never got around to is using a super capacitor bank to aid a small lead acid battery. The battery would provide the energy storage, but would not need to be able to release it at a rapid rate, as is required with a starter motor. That's where the caps come in: they have far less energy density, but can supply much greater amperage at a much larger temperature range compared to lead batteries.There's quite a few youtube videos of people using maxwell supercapacitors exclusively as a car battery.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 02:07:34 am
content: Also some vehicles have particular needs. For example some vehicles have the battery inside the vehicle in the boot area, in those situations you need a sealed or dry battery.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 02:57:13 am
content: Ended up going for aVarta Silver Dynamicseries 780CCA/77Ah battery for AUD$285 not a bad deal at all (granted that is trade pricing). Normally retails around $339.Slightly larger capacity than what's standard but it fit into the battery box without any dramas.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 07:12:37 am
content: While I was at the store, I overheard another customer who was quoted over $500 for a new AGM battery for his BMW. Shocked at the price, he insisted that they fit a bog standard lead acid (not even a particularly "good" brand either) and was warned by the staff several times that it would last 6 months tops before it would need replacement and the warranty on the battery would be void.I assumed this was because his BMW had that auto start/stop feature which puts more of a demand on the battery? But the customer decided to argue anyway. Granted that retail staff don't always know what they are talking about but in this case it seemed like the staff genuinely knew their stuff rather than just trying to up sell something he didn't particularly need.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 08:01:41 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 01, 2017, 07:12:37 amYou'd be spot on. "Modern" cars with controllable alternators that keep the battery on the ragged edge for fuel consumption purposes, combined with not letting it fully charge between cycles and routine heavy discharge does nasty things to a regular lead acid very quickly.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 08:09:14 am
content: Quote from: BradC on March 01, 2017, 08:01:41 amThen how do auto manufacturers manage such battery abuse ?Higher RC ? Higher CCA ? Deep cycle types ?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 08:23:08 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 01, 2017, 08:09:14 amYep. Simply put, better built batteries. Car batteries spent years racing to the bottom because the demands on them (in moderate weather) were pretty mundane, so they just got cheaper and cheaper until they lasted somewhere close to the end of the warranty period. Now with modern vehicles putting increasingly strenuous demands on the battery, they're building better models and pricing accordingly.Better cell skeletons, better paste, better separators.. just a better build all around (where better generally means more metal and attention to detail). A bit like my Altronics brand 7.2AH batteries (that are crap and overpriced) having a relatively high internal resistance and a propensity to die if deep cycled, vs the CSB and Vision UPS batteries that I buy (which turn out cheaper anyway) that will start a small car and withstand a couple of hundred fairly deep cycles that would reduce the Altronics SLA to a pile of smouldering lead. They look the same, and in theory they'll do the same job but one is just built better. You can feel the difference in the weight, but if you pop the caps off you see thicker plates, better separators, deeper wells to catch plate material and bigger and better recombination catalysts to survive more abuse when charging.You'll increasingly be able to buy better built batteries than are commonly available, but you'll need to pay for them.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 08:55:38 am
content: Nothing new there ^ but based on my experience with a shite load of auto batteries over the decades I now only buy from sellers that have been in the trade for decades and know their stuff. Optima have never disappointed when I get the chance to nab one at a reasonable price, hell I've even bought them secondhand from battery dealers that replaced them in a client's installation because they were flat.A good charge and carbon pile test and they shunt them out the door again....cheap for how good they are.My 2002 Commodore battery only lasted 3 years from NEW (GRRRH) and the Ca type that replaced it lasted 10 yrs.It's got another Ca type in it now, still going strong.As vehicles age starter motors become less efficient, brush springs weaken and carbon dust from the brushes create additional current paths that all increase current draw and premature battery failures, this I see in 2 of my tractors and I counter it with frequent starter servicing.Of ~10 LA batteries that I have in service any that aren't being used regularly (weekly) get an overnight charge with a smart charger and those in regular use get the same ~twice a year.This simple maintenance regime extends LA battery life for me by ~1/3.But If I could get new Optima's at a good price, everything would have one !

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 02:53:18 pm
content: There are not a whole lot of actual manufacturers making lead-acid batteries - that's why there isn;t a whole lot of variation between 'brands' - the all have the same OEM. One of the biggest is in my backyard (pretty literally) - East Penn Manufacturing. Their own band is Dekka but they OEM for MANY well-know aftermarket brands as well as many car makers - both US and from other countries.My BMW (a 2012) has an AGM battery but it IS programmable to support either. When it eventually needs replacement though I will stick with the AGM type. It does do all those various charge controls things to reduce alternator load, but it's still the originally battery (I've had the car 2 years) and most days of the week I only drive a short distance (it's less than 4 miles form my house to office) and it's still going strong. Some people seem to have constant battery issues with BMWs but over 4 different ones now I've gotten more than reasonable life out of batteries - and none of them so far has cost me an arm and a leg to replace. I do have an independent mechanic who has all the proper scan tools to reset the battery so even on this newer one that requires computer coding for the battery, I can still avoid the overpriced dealership.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 03:11:16 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on March 01, 2017, 02:53:18 pmThere are *heaps* of actual manufacturers making Lead-Acid batteries. There might not be many in your actual country, and there are fewer in ours, but look at Asia and you'll find more than you can count. Some good and bad in all. Vietnam seems to make some cracker deep cycle marine batteries. There are a couple of great SLA manufacturers in China and Vietnam, and I've seen plenty come out of India that were not terrible.Quote from: tautech on March 01, 2017, 08:55:38 amNope, there's pretty much nothing new anywhere these days. What's old is new again. Don't disagree with anything you had to say otherwise. I generally do a good slow equalization on my car batteries once a year. Seems to make them last longer, but it might be a placebo. Who knows.

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 03:21:52 pm
content: I'm due for a new battery also.Based on my research and reviews so for I am leaning toward the Excide AGM.http://www.exide.com/us/en/product-solutions/transportation/product/exide-edge-automotive-agm.aspx

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 03:30:41 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 01, 2017, 07:12:37 amWhy are you suprised? VW is charging 50% extra for the exact same part number if you are buying it for a VW, rather than a Skoda. The manufacturer wants constant income from the car. That is why a new LED headlamp will have the regular bulb soldered in, ready to break, costing an arm and a leg. And it has CAN connection, with serial number programmed in in the ECU, so you cannot buy second hand. That is why new windscreen wipers for my toyota cost 120 EUR, while the compatible Bosch part costs 25 EUR.I'm just waiting for the subscription model for cars.Buy the battery from the battery manufacturer's re-seller, not car maker.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 04:25:45 pm
content: Well, a bunch of years ago the battery died on my 99 BMW. Sudden failure - car was perfectly fine driving to the locations but when I went to restart it was dead. Even a jump would not let me get it started - I suspect it actually broke the terminal loose. Luckily there was an auto parts store within walking, but I knew someone who had gone there for a battery for his Honda Civic and was charged like $150. I was dreading what they would charge for a much bigger BMW battery - which have special venting and all for the trunk location. I seriously think they saw the other guy (who had no clue about cars, really) coming, whereas perhaps I looked or acted like I had some clue about what I was doing, but I ended up paying $85 for my battery, lugged it back to my car, hooked it up and was off and running.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 12:02:36 am
content: I can recommend Bosch OEM car batteries - great performance for sealed LA battery. I switched to them away from the VW/Porsche/German made crap batteries those German factories delivers. They work great in the heat where most (incl Optima Redtop) dies fast. Everyone that got the Bosch batteries in the UAE i know of - went from battery lifetimes of 8-12 months to 3-5 years. (Outside temperatures in summer >50c / 125f - a true killer for many batteries)I had Optima Bluetops in my boat - they lasted about 18 months and then they wore toast. I put in Lifeline marine batteries (also US make) and my old boat still have them in now 8 years later - and boat is no longer mine.So there is big difference in batteries. Some are great in the colder climates - others are great in hot climate - and some just work in bothLike Bosch and Lifeline in my experience.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 12:51:13 am
content: I'm surprised those cars don't already come with Bosch batteries. All of the electrics in my Volvo are Bosch, I don't know who made the OEM battery though as that's long gone.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 06:52:25 am
content: The offending battery is a "Moll" battery - another German Battery factory - and they are no good at all in the heat. The Moll batteries are labelled VW/Moll or Porsche/Moll - or sometime Moll is not mentioned on the battery but same case.... They cost about 2-3 times as much as the Bosch battery and last 1/3 of the time...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 11:01:07 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 02, 2017, 12:51:13 amMy car is a Volvo, not sure what came out of it but it lasted quite a long time. I figure Varta is near enough.Side note, I've driven a lot of cars in my time and Volvo is my favourite by far weighing up everything. Aussie cars absolutely suck in comparison. My most hated cars: Mitsubishi Lancer and Subaru Impreza. I would rather drive a Mercerdes Sprinter around than those!