First scope - Tektronix TDS220 vs Rigol DS1052E  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: geek
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 06:06:05 am
content: Hi everyone, which scope would you recommend for a beginner (100 MHz is enough for me):1. Second hand Tektronix TDS220 for around $200 - $2502. New Rigol DS1052E for $380

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 10:30:12 am
content: Quote from: geek on July 06, 2014, 06:06:05 amIf you need select onlybetween these named scopesmy opinion is that Rigol is right choice. Note specially that Tek have rubbish BW screen and really only 2.5k sampling buffer what drops your samplerate very fast after you go to slower horizontal speeds. (slower time/div).If we look ancient Tektronix analog scopes they may still have lot of value in special needs but this ancient digital scope is really more like electronic recycle material. If someone sell it to you by 50$ perhaps with this can take "first look" to digital scopes and if price include good condition original probes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 10:40:18 am
content: In short: The TDS220 is total crap.

author: Bryan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 11:40:39 am
content: Go for the Rigol, and keep your eye out for a good used Tek 22xx for the times you really need a analog scope.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 04:30:21 pm
content: The TDS220 does not cover itself in glory but between these two, I would go with the TDS220 anyway because of the DS1052E's lack of peak detection. Their misleading documentation (still not corrected) on that aspect of their operation convinced me to avoid all Rigol products years ago.Long record lengths are convenient and even necessary in a minority of applications but marketing exaggerates their importance.A couple of years ago when I was evaluating DSOs for purchase, I ended up going with a Tektronix 2230 instead of the DS1052E or similar Rigol instrument.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 05:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2014, 10:40:18 amWell, it is 1997's product. It has very limited automatic measurement capabilities. No FFT. No USB. I would prefer TDS1000 or TDS2000, but they are basic, too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 07:56:28 pm
content: TDS1000 and TDS2000 are also crap. The sampling memory is way too small. DPO2000 starts to get interesting but the low screen resolution makes it difficult to use with more than 2 channels. Tektronix just isn't the right choice for low end / general purpose scopes. Money is better spend on Rigol or Siglent.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 09:54:49 pm
content: Go for the Rigol, or a Hantek, or Siglent, of course price and performance varies depending on need.It's actually an interesting question when you hit the sub 400.00 market. If one of the above sellers offered a single feature, such a basic serial decoding it would probably outsell the others by a wide margin. Another feature for schools could be the ability to show images on the display and walk the student or tech through a series of steps, a simple script and image batch on a USB stick. Unlike massive waveform updates and such, things like this could be done in software without (or very minor) hardware modifications.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 10:19:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2014, 07:56:28 pmFor hobby use - yes. But they might be good for basic professional use 12 hours a day.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 10:35:54 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on July 06, 2014, 10:19:55 pmI hope notWorking with a crap scope for 12 hoursSeriously: Over the past decades Tektronix has made several series of scopes with serious long term reliability issues.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 11:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2014, 10:35:54 pmSometimes you just need to check frequency and RMS voltage. TDS1000 is OK for that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 12:14:31 am
content: Then why spend the extra money? The low end Tektronix gear is made in China just like Rigol and Siglent. Need support? Rigol and Siglent already have worldwide support centres. There really is no justification to buy a low end scope from Tektronix!

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 02:47:25 am
content: TDS220 is good if you need a dummy load for a homemade PSU...

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 05:04:19 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 06, 2014, 04:30:21 pmRecord lenght is not only for "how long data you can capture". Sampling speed is tightly related to sampling buffer lenght.If we use analog scope, what is still nice, with every timebase setting vertical frequency response is full. Time/div do not affect at all vertical amplifiers freq response from BNC input to vector monitor. This is very important thing. How peoples react if I tell that you have 100MHz analog scope if you use 5ns/div speed but you have (example) 1MHz oscilloscope if you use 1ms/div speed. Everyone laugh and tell that what hell... you are joking.But with many old digital scopes peoples accept this and they look only that wow, 1GSa/s speed and front panel read 100MHz...It is good to understand even basic fundamentals of digital oscilloscopes and do not tell that record lenght is not so important. If names Nyquist and Shannon feels unknown, then it is best to stay with analog scopes.I take example and this is small 20k sampling buffer. (Tek 220 have 2.5k)Using 1ms/div speed sample rate is 5MSa/s (this is just example)ALL frequency components over 2.5MHz in signal under test produce just "garbage" (aliasing) if these frequency components have enough level for display over noise.With this setting and this 20k memory scope it is best to say it is just UP TO 2MHz real time (single shot) oscilloscope. And more bad, because analog front end do not have filter what reject higher frequencies and result is that you do not know what is true and what is aliasing on the display.If we know exactly our signal under test we do not need oscilloscope at all. Oscilloscope is for analyze / look unknown signals for knowing what is signal.Other scope with 1ms/div setting can sample (example) 500MSa/s speed and this is because it have 10M memory. 500MSa/s is somewhat different what is 5MSa/sAnd this Tek 220 can not do even 5MSa/s using 1ms/div.Short memory oscilloscope sampling speed (and digital freqency response) is fast dropping when you go to slower than maximum horizontal speed. How often in practice you use only fastest timebases?And also it is with zooming. Look 1kHz square wave with 1ms/dif and use zoom for look rising or falling edge. Try it with TEK220.If you know you are always watching nice sinewaves in over 10MHz range then this sampling buffer lenght is not so important. One scope (example agen) use 28 sample points memory when there is 1ns/div horizontal speed and 2GSa/s sampling speed. And this example have 28M memory if drop horizontal speed to 1ms/s and even with this speed it can use 2GSa/s speed so it have full vertical digital frequency response without aliasing even if there is over 300MHz frequency components in signal under test. (Nyquist limit 1GHz in this case)Memory is NOT ONLY for thinking how long data you can capture. It is extremely important for frequency response and even more important because there is not filter in analog front end for reject BW under Nyquist limit.In analog scope there is only attenuation if go to "over speed" but digital scope produce bullshit to display if go over used sampling speed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 06:47:05 am
content: No contest!The Rigol DS1053E wins hands down in practically every respect.Given that you are in Oz, if you really want a TDS220, email me your snail mail address and I'll send you one for nix!

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 07:28:08 am
content: Now that's an offer you can't afford to turn down!

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 06:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Head on July 07, 2014, 07:28:08 amA DS1053E sounds pretty good as well

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 07:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on July 07, 2014, 05:04:19 amAnd yet a much older Tektronix 2232 with a 1000 point record length and maximum sampling rate of 100 MS/s has no problem doing exactly what you describe without aliasing.At 1 ms/div the 1k record length of the 2232 would limit the sample rate to 100 kS/s (Switching to the supported longer 4k record length will not alter it in this case.) implying a single shot Nyquist bandwidth of 50 kHz yet in reality, no aliasing do to sampling will occur (1) up to 50 MHz when peak detection is active which also lowers the record length to 500 points. No signal details within the envelope will be shown of course but the TDS220 or DS1052E would not show them either because of their lack of intensity grading. You cannot go back and magnify the saved record effectively but nothing prevents another acquisition using the delayed timebase to magnify a particular spot.Peak detection, which the DS1052E lacks and Rigol was misleading about (2), makes up for short record lengths and especially so when the lack of index grading prevents the display of signal details within the envelope anyway.QuoteAnd then try it with the TDS220 using the delayed timebase instead of zoom. If you have a short record length, then the delayed timebase works in place of zoom as long as you are not looking into the pretrigger record and some old oscilloscopes can do even that although it is implemented in a different way.QuoteIn a well designed DSO, the record length is irrelevant to Nyquist frequency response. Either peak detection may be used in place of simple decimation to capture the signal envelope in a single shot at the maximum sample rate or DPO style processing may generate a histogram in place of decimation producing an intensity graded record in a single shot at the maximum sample rate.QuoteNone of my old DSOs except one have problems with aliasing despite short record lengths because they support peak detection allowing sampling at their highest sample rates at any sweep speed.I am not saying that long record lengths are useless or never necessary. I am saying that the benefit they have by allowing higher sample rates only matter in very specific applications.(1) The finite sampling gate width of the sample and hold before the ADC will cause distortion do to its sin(x)/x response but that is a different matter and does not depend on sampling rate. All DSOs suffer from this to one extent or another but I have not observed it in anything newer than a 2232 and and in practice it is not a problem with it or even the 2230 where it is more apparent.(2) My communications with Rigol on this matter when I was evaluating DSOs a couple years ago is what convinced me that they are not to be trusted. The sales representatives I talked to did not know their own material and lied systematically. Maybe things have changed since the DS1052E was released but their marketing material is still misleading so I doubt it.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 08:02:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 07, 2014, 06:47:05 amFor hobby use at home, yes.(My relative works at an electron microscope factory and they recently bought TBS1000B. Not a bang per buck. But it will work for 10+ years. Well, it is a bit better than TDS220, but it still has that funny 2500 points memory.)

author: geek
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2014, 08:06:09 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on July 06, 2014, 10:30:12 amNo, I'm actually just looking for sub $400 scope, and DS1052E has quite few good reviews here and I almost decided to buy it. But then I thought I can get TDS220 but wasn't sure which one is better so decided to ask experts

author: geek
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2014, 08:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 07, 2014, 06:47:05 amWowI didn't expect thatThanks Dave! Sure, if I finally decide to buy TDS220, I will email.

author: geek
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2014, 08:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on July 07, 2014, 03:43:59 pmHmm... missed this one for some reason ...

author: geek
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2014, 08:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on July 07, 2014, 05:04:19 amDoes it matter how much memory scope has when you watch the signal in real time? Does it only use as much memory as many points it can display?For example, if display is 240*320 pixels, it only needs 320 bytes to capture the signal and then display it (for each channel)Excuse me if I'm saying something really dumb

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2014, 09:14:06 pm
content: Quote from: geek on July 08, 2014, 08:37:01 pmI am not aware of any general purpose DSOs which operate this way. Even if only part of the acquisition record is displayed on the screen, automatic measurements may operate on the entire acquisition record including the parts which are not displayed.What does matter is the record length if it limits the sample rate as rf-loop pointed out. I only consider DSOs which support peak detection or other processing which removes this limitation.

author: levinite
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 08, 2014, 11:06:33 pm
content: I recently bought a scope. Before buying, I found it is important to grasp a few fundamental ideas to be able to evaluate a choice even at the low end price range. One of the best videos I have found for this is here:Although long, it is well done and presented on a very understandable level. Another consideration is the kind of special features unique to a digital scope that might be useful for finding circuit problems. I found this sitehttp://www.biasedlogic.com/index.php/hantek-dso1062b-dso1102b-dso1202b-vs-5gss-lecroy-waverunner/very informative.Also to be considered:warrantyhackability (performance improvements)repair center locationsscreen size, resolutiongui useability and responsivenessexternal connections optionssize, weight, footprintBottom line:Take Dave up on his offer.If nothing else you will gain experience from using a digital scope that will guide you towards what you may really need for a future purchase.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2014, 02:34:34 pm
content: That ISO-TECH scope is renamed Goodwill Instek. And the Xytron scope is Siglent.

author: paulcav
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 05:56:45 am
content: Here is a site thats selling the DS1052Ehttp://www.rigoloscilloscope.com.au/wholesale/Rigol-Oscilloscope-50MHz-DS1052E-1G-SG-1M-3-years-warranty-Special-Offer-24.html

author: Daruosha
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 08:13:33 am
content: I'm sorry, but if you are thinking to pay 380$ for a Rigol DS1052E, why don't you consider DS1054Z with 400$ MSRP. 4 channels, 24M memory, lots of stuff.. IMHO, There's no point in buying DS1052E more than 250$.and about the TDS220: it's a very old and limited piece of gear. Yes; back in the day, it was revolutionary, bot now, it cannot do much for you.Spend 20 bucks more and get a DS1054Z.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 08:17:36 am
content: Quote from: paulcav on March 12, 2017, 05:56:45 amCaveat: Despite the Australian top level domain, that seller is actually based in China. They operate similar "local" websites in several other countries. There may be difficulties if you should ever need a warranty repair or replacement -- see e.g. this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/have-experience-with-www-rigoloscilloscope-com-au/

author: paulcav
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 08:30:23 am
content: According to the Australian website the DS1052E is on special and comes with a 3 year RTB warranty.Plus according to @eevblog Dave it can be changed from 50Mhz to 100Mhz.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 08:44:18 am
content: Quote from: Daruosha on March 12, 2017, 08:13:33 amI agree that the DS1054Z is a much preferable scope, and if the OP's budget allows it, he should get one. But in your comment, you are mixing up US$ and Australian$ prices. (And there is not only an FX rate between those, but also a different tax rate.)Quote from: paulcav on March 12, 2017, 08:30:23 amYes, and the "return to base" is where the problem lies. In case of rigoloscilloscope.com.au, that "base" is far away, and there are customs and shipping hurdles between Australia and China, when sending the scope for repair and receiving it back.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 01:05:30 pm
content: Threadomancer: One who resurrects dead and buried threads.Necrothreadofilia: The unjustifiable love for the resurrected thread.The OP asked a question nearly three years ago. I hope they were not be holding their breath till now...At the time, the DS1052 might have been interesting. Not any any longer.

author: paulcav
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 01:40:44 pm
content: I'm sorry if i opened up a can pf worms.What occurred was that i watched an old video of Dave talking about oscilloscopes as i was looking for a low end and cost one, when he mentioned one that was easily modified so that is when went looking for one.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 03:10:49 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on March 12, 2017, 01:05:30 pmIndeed, and thanks for pointing out the old start date of the thread. Hadn't noticed that.

author: robert574
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 03:26:29 am
content: Always good reading for years to come...