Help with removing HDMI encoder chip. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: Bargainhunter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 09:04:10 pm
content: I am getting nowhere trying to remove a HDMI chip from a panasonic projector main board.I have the board on a pre-heater set to 400 F. My hot air station is a ZD-982.I have the hot air set to the max at 785 F.The solder on the chip will not melt. I have the hot air gun close and going around the chip for more than 30 seconds and the solder will just not melt.I hesitate to hold the hot air gun any longer and I can't get the air gun any hotter.Can anyone please tell me what I'm doing wrong. I see videos on youtube and the chip is removed in 5 to 10 seconds!Chuck - bargainhunter

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 12:17:16 am
content: Settings on your tools dont matter, what matters is actual temperature on the pcb, use thermocouple on the board and measure in few places, optimal preheater temp is ~100C on top surface. Preheater should be big enough for whole PCb (or it will warp) and should _not_ exceed couple degrees per second temp rise (or it will warp/crack/pop).you have 300W 24l/min hotair on paper, but its chinese combo bargain garbage unit so its safe to half those numbers, good for smd passives on 2layer boards and shrink tubing.there is a trick for non bga chips - add lead solder to all the pins

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 01:03:02 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on July 25, 2018, 12:17:16 amWow.A 'tour de force' of useful advice as the first reply to an EEVblog post. Never seen that before.Rasz deserves bonus points.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 02:27:35 am
content: 30 seconds is not too long, remember that large parts and boards have lots of thermal inertia so will take a while to heat up. Unless you're blowing for many minutes, don't worry about damaging parts --- by its nature, hot air conducts heat far slower than actual metal-to-metal contact with a soldering iron, so it's very much not a "touch and go" type of operation.

author: Bargainhunter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 06:22:39 pm
content: Thanks for the advice. The board must be dissipating the heat.I will try a thermacouple to read the temperature of the top surface near the chip.Also what is your opinion of Chip Quik?Thank you,chuck

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 06:40:22 pm
content: A projector with an HDMI encoder? Are you sure it's not a decoder chip? What would you replace it with? HDMI decoders with HDCP keys in them cannot be purchased by consumers. It usually means your projector wont work with official DVD, Bluray or cable boxes, they will just say need an HDCP compliant receiver, or just show a black screen, or, only run in 480p.

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 06:47:54 pm
content: Do you want the chip or the board to survive?If only the board: Cut the pins from the ic and desolder them individually.Probably the decoder also has a big ground pad underneath.Can you get a datasheet for the ic and look at the package drawings?

author: Bargainhunter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 06:59:21 pm
content: Sorry, the chip is not an encoder.I have attached a diagram of the board. The chip is located between A&B at 5 on the photo.Right now I am practicing on a bad board with a bad chip. I will attempt to replace a bad chip with a new chip on a good board.Thanks for all your help.Chuck

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 07:32:45 pm
content: Chip Kwick works pretty well, although you do have to make sure you clean it off the pads well or you can be surprised by how long the solder stays molten on the new part. It's interesting stuff, weird to see metal melt at such low temperature.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 07:34:14 pm
content: You mean that big quad flatpack on what is certainly a multilayer board? That's going to be a bitch to remove, even with a preheater.Your cheap ZD-982 is likely not going to be up to the task with the lead free solder on that board. These kinds of jobs need a more serious firepower, look at e.g. the Quick 861DW that Dave has reviewed recently. That has 1000W heater, compared to the (sticker value) of 300 something of your ZD-982 ...I have an Atten 858D+ which supposedly has 700W and it also struggles with larger parts, especially on multilayer boards.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 09:27:39 pm
content: He probably wants the chip for a home project since it has the HDCP keys embedded meaning it will work with any HDCP encrypted video source.Otherwise, replacing that IC with a purchased equiv off the shelf IC wont have the HDCP keys inside and the projector will no longer work with HDCP video sources as long as the projector's firmware doesn't care that the replacement HDMI receiver IC has no HDCP keys before it begins to function.

author: Bargainhunter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 09:56:38 pm
content: Maybe I'm calling the chip a decoder by mistake. The chip is an Analog Devices ADV7495B and is the HDMI chip that runs to the HDMI ports.Sorry for any confusion.Chuck

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 10:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: Bargainhunter on July 25, 2018, 09:56:38 pmBad chip number.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 12:17:45 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 25, 2018, 09:27:39 pmAlternatively, you can get HDMI decoders with keys from the various no-name "HDMI splitters" out there --- a lot of them also, not surprisingly, strip HDCP....it's not like the keys are secret anymore --- the master key was leakednearly eight years ago.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 12:21:15 am
content: Quote from: amyk on July 26, 2018, 12:17:45 amOk, so then, order an Analog devices HDMI receiver/decoder with keys installed.... Let's see how far you get...I doubt any other chip but the proper one will work in the projector...

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 03:42:36 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 25, 2018, 10:54:21 pmsure ;-)its just insufficient heat, bumping hotair temp wont help, whole pcb must be warm, otherwise you will just pump heat to the whole board. This chip doesnt even have a ground island, should be 5 second pull, goes to show what garbage ZD-982 is ;(

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 04:43:54 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 26, 2018, 12:21:15 amOooops, found it. Yup, keyed chips exist, oddly from AlibabaAliexpress in China??Yet, not from any official Analog Devices distributers...

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 09:55:09 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 26, 2018, 04:43:54 amYou can probably guess why. AD is contractually forbidden to sell it to anyone but the HDMI carte...ehm...consortium licensees.The Chinese chips are who knows what - at best grey market goods that are not supposed to be (re)sold (e.g. refurbed pulls or left over/stolen chips from a factory building consumer goods), at worst fakes and you lose your money.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 03:47:12 pm
content: If you buy the chips through ebay you'll get a refund if they turn out to be fakes.The whole HDCP thing is absurd, it has been cracked wide open for years and almost nobody pirates content that way anyway. It's much easier to rip the bluray or DVD and bypass the whole HDMI chain. Trying to copy protect the whole chain is also fundamentally flawed because there is nothing stopping someone from opening the TV and intercepting the signal coming out of the HDMI decoder or the LVDS signal to the panel. It takes significantly more technological expertise but it is not beyond the range of a determined hobbyist and it only takes *one* person to rip the stream into an unprotected form that can be distributed. The only function of the copy protection is creating hassle for legitimate users.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 06:39:34 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 26, 2018, 03:47:12 pmGiven that they are likely illegal to sell in the US I wouldn't be surprised if eBay just told you "tough luck, punk!".(DMCA et al forbidding it as a "circumvention device" - it could certainly be used for legit stuff but good luck convincing a lawyer about that when you don't have HDCP license ...)Quote from: james_s on July 26, 2018, 03:47:12 pmYes, but you are completely missing the point. HDCP doesn't need to work well (or work at all). It only needs to be a sufficient hassle to circumvent it that it will put an average consumer off from seeking ways to pirate the content. And it has been very successful at that (together with the concerted campaign of Hollywood lawyers suing the pants off anyone who dares to do or sell anything they don't like - such as any gear designed to remove HDCP). Most people have barely the technical chops to connect the Bluray player to their TV and don't have a clue how to circumvent it. It is the same story as Macrovision on VHS was all over again.These days it is a bit of a moot point because few people buy or borrow Bluray disks anymore - video on demand services like Netflix have essentially completely killed it. However, until recently it just wasn't practical to download a (good quality) Bluray (or even DVD) rip from the Internet due to the enormous sizes of those files and poor broadband services. And there the HDCP certainly managed to largely succeed at protecting the MPAA members' profits ...

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 02:30:39 am
content: Quote from: janoc on July 26, 2018, 06:39:34 pmHow are they illegal if they can be found in just about every device that has an HDMI input...? Are those device also illegal to sell...?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 02:43:18 am
content: Quote from: janoc on July 26, 2018, 06:39:34 pmYeah right, ebay doesn't care, it's illegal to sell counterfeit goods too yet their site is chock full of it.You're suffering the same misguided belief that the Hollywood types have, and missing the point. Consumers don't try to pirate by recording the HDMI output of a device, even though these days it's trivial to buy a $15 splitter that strips the HDCP. I bought mine from Amazon because I have an older projector that doesn't support HDCP, blocking me from using it to watch content that I have a legal right to watch. Consumers that wish to pirate simply hit up the torrent sites and download whatever they wish. Like I said, it only takes *one* technically minded cracker type to rip the content and post it, then anyone can download it. People are like electricity, they pick the path of least resistance, and that path is file sharing. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone under the age of about 25 who hasn't downloaded torrents of shows they want to watch. HDCP causes problems for legitimate users and drives still more people to illegal file sharing because when you download the cracked file you get something that's more convenient with less restrictions than from the legitimate source. The copy protection does *nothing* to reduce piracy, absolutely nothing.

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 05:09:16 pm
content: I've bought a number of HDMI receiver chips on ebay without any problems. They commonly get damaged by lightning and other voltage spikes.I wouldn't worry about any legal issues with buying small quantities of something that's inside every TV and HT receiver made in the last 10+ years. It's not like you're manufacturing devices that do something illegal. If there's a problem, ebay almost always sides with the buyer, particularly if the seller sold something he shouldn't have.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 05:30:31 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on July 27, 2018, 02:30:39 amThe chips themselves aren't illegal. However, selling them without having a license can get you sued under DMCA and similar for trafficking in circumvention devices. That's not the same thing.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 05:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 27, 2018, 02:43:18 amAnd if that goods get reported that auction gets cancelled. Your point is? I hope you realize that they cannot police everything and know whether or not something is counterfeit unless someone reports it or complains about it.Quote from: james_s on July 27, 2018, 02:43:18 amTry to read the entire text you are replying to before you hit reply - I wrote exactly this thing too. However, what you don't realize is that when HDCP has been designed, downloading "from a torrent site" was not an option for most because the broadband simply wasn't there yet. We are talking year 2000 here, 18 years ago! Stuff like Bittorrent didn't even exist at that time, you could download from FTP sites and Napster was popular for music (it got shut down in 2002). Not exactly solution for downloading huge rips of a Bluray disk.It has been pretty effective at what it was designed for about 10 years, making sure that the studios got their investment in the tech back. Today it is a pointless anachronism, I agree, but that's irrelevant. It has played its role already.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 05:39:51 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 27, 2018, 05:30:31 pmI think China has pretty clearly demonstrated that they don't care. The Western authorities can hardly even make a dent in the sales of blatantly counterfeit goods, take one seller out and they pop right back up under a different name.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 05:43:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 27, 2018, 05:39:51 pmWhatever. I don't care. The point was that I wish good luck to whoever suggested complaining to eBay about receiving a fake chip when it is illegal to sell in the US. If you want to whine about eBay not policing Chinese sellers or eBay being full of counterfeit goods, fine but I don't see how is that related to the topic.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 05:46:58 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 27, 2018, 05:39:16 pmWhen HDCP came out, streaming was not yet a thing either due partly to that very reason. Media came on DVDs and later Bluray, and I was ripping DVDs onto my PC so I could watch them on my laptop while on vacation and such. They were pushing HDCP encryption on the disc player to TV link and like most people I simply bypassed that whole chain, ripping the disc from the source. I don't know how much piracy was going on at the time because I never bothered, even back then used DVDs were cheap as dirt from Amazon. Some years later studios made several laughable attempts at releasing digital versions of movies which were so encumbered by copy protection that it was still easier to rip the DVD and get a completely unprotected file that could be played on any device.When I worked at a company that made devices with HDMI output, the HDCP stuff caused huge problems, it was one of our biggest issues getting our stuff to work with all the broken firmware in various TVs and other devices. Lots of effort, and one of the biggest sources of customer complaints when their TV wouldn't work with our stuff. Usually it was a bug in the TV but of course the first blame came to us. Meanwhile for our automation rack we had a bunch of $14 splitters to strip the HDCP so the video capture servers could "see" the output from the boxes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 05:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 27, 2018, 05:43:08 pmIt works though. Ebay either doesn't know or doesn't care, their system is very biased toward buyer protection. If you complain that you received a fake/counterfeit part and the seller doesn't refund you, ebay will grant a refund nearly every time, almost no questions asked. If the part turns out to be illegal to sell, that responsibility lands on the seller, the buyer is still protected. All you have to do is open a claim that the item is defective or not as described.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 12:10:24 am
content: Quote from: janoc on July 27, 2018, 05:30:31 pmMaybe in your country, but not in the US. It's the same as buying devices with HDCP decoders in them and harvesting the chips for sale; the original buyer from the manufacturer may have such an agreement but that does not apply to further sales after that.Seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine