wch new chip - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bywqdq
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 01:49:37 am
content: ch32h417

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 02:16:02 am
content: So, what is the target application? And what price point?

author: bywqdq
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 02:25:41 am
content: 特色就是risc-v 双核cpu，usb3.0可用配合FPGA完成数据采集上传。价格还不知道。肯定不便宜。

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 02:29:42 am
content: Quote from: bywqdq on May 03, 2025, 02:25:41 amVia Google translate:Quote

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 12:36:04 pm
content: Pretty cool stuff if it's for real.

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 06:30:26 pm
content: I wonder how the 512k flash and 896k RAM is organised.If its directly executable flash - great, but if its SPI flash and needs to be loaded into RAM as I suspect the 307 is, then potentially there is only 384k of RAM.I do like the 100MBit Ethernet PHY.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 08:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: woofy on May 03, 2025, 06:30:26 pmMost likely not, as this isn't how WCH market their MCUs.The CH32V30x do load Flash content into internal RAM on startup, but it's extra RAM inside the chip that is not advertised as usable as data RAM.The CH32V307 for instance has a lot more internal RAM than the advertised 64 KB, and some of it can be used as data RAM depending on config bits. It has a total of 320 KB of RAM, so that's 256 KB copied from Flash and 64 KB available as "RAM". You can configure it to get up to 128 KB of usable "RAM" if you restrict the usable "code" Flash to 192 KB.So if anything, I'm pretty sure they use the same marketing terms for all their MCUs, and the marketed 896 KB are fully available to the user. If it copies Flash to RAM, it most certainly has 512 KB of extra internal RAM.

author: Sacodepatatas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 11:41:57 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on May 03, 2025, 08:00:53 pmYou don't need to restrict the usable code Flash to 192 KB if you are aware that the code located inside the 192-480KB segment is going to be accessed 10x slower because is retrieved from the serial flash (512KB) rather than the RAM mirrored flash.https://github.com/ch32-rs/wlink/blob/main/README.mdhttps://cpldcpu.com/2024/05/01/decapsulating-the-ch32v203-reveals-a-separate-flash-die/

author: bywqdq
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2025, 07:20:31 am
content: 100MBit Ethernet PHY. ch32v317

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2025, 07:28:47 am
content: I wonder if the CAN bus is CAN-FD or not. They would probably have said FD if it was, just says 2.0B

author: GromBeestje
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2025, 07:50:10 am
content: One thing I notice here is the core. It says RISC-V5F, so that is a QingKeV5 core. Is there anything known what this new core can do?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2025, 07:53:52 am
content: Quote from: GromBeestje on May 04, 2025, 07:50:10 amYeah, nothing yet athttps://www.wch-ic.com/search?t=all&k=qingkev

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2025, 08:28:18 am
content: Quote from: GromBeestje on May 04, 2025, 07:50:10 amSeems likely it can unlock itself and dump its firmware if any person with some secret key asks it to.Not that most other mcu's don't have some possible hack to dump firmware, but in this case its probably intentional.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 09:31:13 am
content: I think they should fix or add these issues to the chips,1- The ability to execute code from external SPI flash2- The ability to add external RAM (some parts have it)3- Add a RGB LCD controller to the MCU4-Make all the SPI cores capable of Acting as I2S

author: ftg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 09:48:10 am
content: Seems like this ch32h417 potentially replaces ch569.But it does not seem to mention the HSPI (high-speed parallel interface) that ch569 has for FPGA interfacing.Unless the idea is to use the SerDes for it. Or they have a new interface with a new acronym for that.The USB-PD is also interesting for making devices with just a single USB-C connector for everything.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 01:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: ftg on May 05, 2025, 09:48:10 amYes, it looks like they took most of the CH569 features and integrated them in a new, more powerful MCU, along with other features such as USB-PD.They have this distinction between the CH32xxxxx line and CHxxx. As I understand it, the CHxxx products, while some are MCUs, are more marketed as "interface chips", while the CH32xxxxx series are marketed as MCUs.So not sure it will replace the CH569, but more address a different market. It's probably going to be more expensive too.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 02:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on May 05, 2025, 01:08:55 pmI'm not sure what the exact difference is. Interface? Special purpose vs general-purpose? Maybe something custom they made because one customer wanted a million of them, and they put them on sale for everyone too? I suspect the CH570D, for example, is probably the latter. Same price as CH32V003 but 8x more RAM and flash and 2x MHz, USB and 2.4 GHz radio. But dropping some important features (for general purpose) such as ADC.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 07:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on May 05, 2025, 02:00:45 pmYou can have a look at their offering:https://wch-ic.com/products/categories/46.html?pid=1All CHxxx products are, from what I can see, indeed some kind of "interface" chips, providing a specific set of interfaces. Some have a CPU core inside, some don't.While the products listed as "MCUs" have a different naming scheme and yes, are marketed as "general-purpose" MCUs.For sure some of them cross boundaries.

author: bywqdq
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 08:48:47 am
content: UHSIF may be a useful alternative to HSPI. Not sure.

author: bywqdq
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2025, 11:06:43 am
content: https://www.wch.cn/downloads/PRODUCT_GUIDE_PDF.html

author: ftg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 01:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: bywqdq on May 06, 2025, 08:48:47 amCould be. DDG only finds Advantest T6391 when searching for "UHSIF", so it could be a new tem by WCH.Translating the text from that product guide points towards the acronym being "Universal High-Speed InterFace".Outside of that I cannot really find any details about the capabilities of the UHSIF.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2025, 07:29:50 pm
content: Nice to see loads of RAM - the most precious resource in most systems.No chance of getting even most of the peripherals coming out unless you go for the biggest package. Even on the QFP100 32F417 I lost perhaps 1/3 of the peripherals. The tradeoffs will be interesting e.g. I could not get four UARTs and three SPIs. Had to sacrifice SPI1 which happens to be the fastest.A big political risk, too, nowadays.

author: __george__
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2025, 08:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on May 04, 2025, 08:28:18 amΨ, do you have any links for this? It will be an interesting read.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2025, 06:38:28 am
content: Still waiting for the mystery linksIf a chip mfg put in a back door, who for? The CCP? That would make sense, but all these chips are vulnerable to methods like VCC pulsing.

author: ftg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2025, 03:49:00 pm
content: The "backdoor" for dumping firmware could be related to something like this?

author: BadeBhaiya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2025, 10:15:01 pm
content: What a beast. Dual core too. Massive package too it seems. I just hope it's not a BGAAny details about the ADC? If it's a fast one, we me really have a winner in our hands

author: __george__
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2025, 11:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: ftg on May 15, 2025, 03:49:00 pmI don't think that this is the same, no. Ψ was talking about a backdoor, this seems like a legit vulnerability.Funny thing is that this exact vulnerability described in the video exists(or existed at least) for LPC1343 as described in 3.3 section in this paper:https://pure-oai.bham.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/115385806/fillyourboots.pdfIts kind of a shame to copy vulnerabilities from other companies. You need to create your own unique ones

author: PhilYoung
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2025, 08:36:46 am
content: it must be qfn

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2025, 09:46:19 am
content: To be clear, I have no proof there is any backdoor in the chip.But I would be extremely shocked if there wasn't.

author: BrokeEngineering
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2025, 08:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on May 24, 2025, 09:46:19 amAmerican chip manus are notorious for leaving backdoors for NSA, CIA and the likes so I doubt it would be any different, the only difference is who has the backdoor

author: bywqdq
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2025, 12:46:09 am
content: I think it is meaningless to deliberately add backdoors to chips of this level. What makes sense is to add backdoors to the CPU or PLC of the computer. I think the biggest problem with WCH is that there is no errata in the chip manual. I made an openFPGALoader for ch347, but it didn't work. The final reason was the chip version problem, and I bought a new version of the chip to solve the problem.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2025, 12:58:10 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on May 13, 2025, 06:38:28 amAnybody withj enough money / political power.Just like any business.

author: ftg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2025, 08:00:40 am
content: Quote from: bywqdq on June 12, 2025, 12:46:09 amYeah it is annoying that they don't log the changes to the datasheets. The datasheets just get a new revision with stuff added or removed.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2025, 08:05:32 am
content: Quote from: bywqdq on June 12, 2025, 12:46:09 amPCBAs are reverse engineered by taking off the parts and measuring them or identifying the part numbers.PCBs are reverse engineered by milling them layer by layer.And the programmable parts have a backdoor, where you can just read out the last piece of IP. Which might contain HASH keys for passwords or something else important.It does matter, someone can copy your product with such little effort.