Technology time forgot - MUST SEE! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: rickey1990
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 11:31:46 pm
content: Hydrogen generation from salt water with radio wave's, I remember i was 16 back when i first heard of this, it wasn't until today i was thumbing a article on radio-waves being used to make cheap plasma engines using distilled water, reminded me of back then. So did my research on a guy called John Kanzius, to see that he had sadly passed away from cancer in 2009, but unlike most "inventors" on Google patents, He actually listed every component used in his machine. Treating it more as something from a science paper to be replicated.The video:https://youtu.be/Tf4gOS8aoFkWhat iv done is copyed the information to my blog.http://beambuilder.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/water-to-fire-part-1.htmlhttp://beambuilder.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/water-to-fire-part-2.htmlBut i have a question about the parts, can i substitute the caps with these? And also do you think there's any other components that can be replaced as i am not familiar with this types of electronics.EXEMPLARY COMPONENT SPECIFICATIONSFig # RF Gen C1 C2 C3 L1 L2 FP1 FP210 N/A Capacitor Air Vacuum Coil ¼?? Coil ¼?? N/A N/A100 pF, Variable Variable Copper Copper15 kVDC Capacitor Capacitor Tube TubePN: 36-249 Pf 12-500 pF 10 turns 32 turnsHECHT57Y101MA 4 kVDC 15 kVDC, 2.4? ? OD 2.2? ? ODQTY: 11 Surplus Comet PNSales of CVIC-Nebraska 500TN/15PN: 12-5311 ENI- 240 V Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as 3 plates N/A10-1500 W FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 6?? . . .0.020? S.S.0.375?Teflon Spacer4??0.020? S.S0.375?Teflon Spacer3?? . . .0.020? S.S.Teflon Spacer12 Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as 3 platesFIG. 11 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 11 6?? . . .0.020? S.S.0.375?Teflon Spacer4??0.020? S.S0.375?Teflon Spacer3?? . . .0.020? S.S.Teflon Spacer16 Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as 6? ? × 0.125? Same asFIG. 11 FIG. 10, FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 thk copper FIG. 12QTY 13 plate16a Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as Same as 9.5? silverFIG. 11 FIG. 16 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 10 FIG. 16 coated square0.125? thickcopper

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 11:50:37 pm
content: So you need about 1kW of RF energy at around 13.56MHz, wow! That's a lot of energy just to electrolyze some hydrogen!

author: rickey1990
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:31:39 am
content: Well it say's 600watts, im not saying its perfect, just interesting. Say if you had solar farm or nuclear power plant powering a hydrogen/oxygen plant using salt water. Transport system wise, we are using fuels that are stored. so storing the gas in tanks, then pumping it into a car. is going to be better than a fuel cell, which uses expensive platinum (the hydrogen fuel cells) and lithium battery's. Cars can be cheaply modified to run on hydrogen. system like LPG. That way the UK could say we need "this much energy"" to run our transport system. lets "x" amount of nuclear power plants to provide the energy we need to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. but obviously thats not going to happen, $6.60 a gallon, there's money still be made.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:48:28 am
content: Quote from: rickey1990 on February 17, 2016, 12:31:39 amThe compressed hydrogen is orders of magnitude more explosive than petrol. It is a significant explosive hazard. Also what is the efficiency of the energy conversion process, 1% or 0.1%, it looks like it will be very low. The devil is always in the detail.Apart from that though it is pretty cool!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 10:01:17 am
content: Quote from: moffy on February 16, 2016, 11:50:37 pmDoes that matter If the RF energy is free?

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 10:10:18 am
content: The energy is never free, unless it's generated as a byproduct that could not be valued until that point...And yeah, the reason why we don't see many fuel cell powered vehicles has as much to do with the hazards associated with hydrogen storage and handling as it has to do with the fuel cell.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:04:08 am
content: Quote from: moffy on February 16, 2016, 11:50:37 pmif its worth it! ENIAC was weigh 30 tons and consumed 160KW, that the same processing power of today may only consume mW if not uW. at CERN today, they used TW to get a single anti-hydrogen, so is it worth it? whats ironic is actually when people of today want to build something of the past, esp when it involving wasting of energy and time, regardless even for their own lust content learning purpose they argued. its fun learning the history, but doing it? not, history is only for display, imho.

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:15:46 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on February 17, 2016, 10:10:18 amUp to now, there is no viable substitute for platinum as catalyst in hydrogen fuel cells. There is no more platinum available in the world for less than 10% of the current car park worldwide.And indeed the hazards. It is still very difficult to store hydrogen. As a compressed gas it will leak out of any container. Imagine what will happen with an underground car parking full of hydrogen powered cars and one flips the light switch...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:51:41 am
content: Quote from: Pjotr on February 17, 2016, 11:15:46 ami imagine the same for car parking full of petroleum powered cars

author: rickey1990
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:40:12 pm
content: What you also have to remember is the costs for finding oil,building a drilling rig, the heat energy needed to separate the crude oil by fractional distillation, the cost of the pipelines to move the crude oil from the drilling site to the refinery. If your using salt water you can build a plant right next to the source without worrying about a environmental disaster. the reason fuel cost money is because there is a process involved that costs money. So it may or may not be more efficient and a there may be a few engineering issues to be solved. but the end result is that the only thing coming out of a tail pipe is water.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:52:16 pm
content: Quote from: Pjotr on February 17, 2016, 11:15:46 amAnd lets not go into what will happen if we let humans near filling stations filled with compressed/liquified bydrogen.Apparently this happens at least once a month at every gas station:I don't think hydrogen gas is the future of driving.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 01:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 17, 2016, 12:52:16 pmI don't think that's possible in Australia. As you have to replace the nozzle in order to go pay for your petrol, as the transaction does not register unless nozzle is replaced.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 02:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 17, 2016, 12:52:16 pmIt's the same with hydrogen. A car with a fuel hose and no explosion.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 03:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 01:20:21 pmSo you're saying it's free energy that way, too?

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 07:25:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 01:20:21 pmWorks the same way here, but that doesn't prevent some from zoning out and forgetting to close out the transaction. So I guess this picture would justify charging with stealing as well as destruction of private property.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 10:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 01:20:21 pmYou still go into the station office to pay for your petrol? How quaint.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 12:23:55 am
content: I've worked on hydrogen development vehicles, and many of the risks are fear of the unknown. If hydrogen escapes it tends to leave the area, in an upwards direction, pretty quickly ... Certainly a lot more quickly than petrol does. Personally, id prefer a significant hydrogen leak in preference to a significant petrol one!Ita odourless so taints are added to give it a smell....problem is they poison fuel cells etc so they are not popular. Electronic sensors are generally fitted to detect it....one time I rang a guy from 7000 miles away to tell him to get out the vehicle cos it had a leak.....this was the very early days of telematics and he was more freaked by the fact that I knew than the fact there was a leak.It does have risks...it will collect in high voids such as roof spaces, which is inconveniently where there can be sparks from electrical fittings. As a result most jurisdictions have ordinances about hydrogen vehicles going in to confined spaces. When it does burn it does so with a colourless flame.Energy density isn't great and it burns to form water...which is a pain in the ass if you're using oil cos emulsification is a problem. Finally, the greater part of hydrogen is currently made by cracking natural gas (or leastways, it was when I was involved) which limits its green credentials a bit.Dave

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 04:45:21 am
content: Apparently this happens at least once a month at every gas station:I don't think hydrogen gas is the future of driving.Hoses typically have a break away coupling valve. I have seen them in action a few times. typically you can just plug them back in.

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 08:50:28 pm
content: So, uh, the device pictured seems to just be the matching network, not the big RF signal source. You're going to need that too.Also, why does anyone think this is more efficient than DC electrolysis of water? There's so many other places for energy to be lost as heat.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:54:01 pm
content: About the explosiveness of compressed hydrogen: In the 1993 world trade center bombing which left a crater 5 stories deep, the terrorists used 3 cylinders of compressed hydrogen to multiply the explosive force. Imagine a car park filled with cars with compressed hydrogen tanks!

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 12:15:06 am
content: Quote from: moffy on February 18, 2016, 11:54:01 pmCould've saved the lives of some airplane passengers in 2001...No, seriously, why would you want to rate the safety of a fuel system by looking at such rare incidents? We don't need to make terror attacks or century accidents safer, but rather look at real problems.Hydrogen isn't as unsafe as people often think it is, some people have the fear that even small amounts of hydrogen explodes violently if you have your tongue at the wrong angle, just because they think of the Hindenburg disaster.

author: AviatorLj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 12:47:14 am
content: I love how the news agency spun that fuel cell story...The problem is, the saltwater is just a low-energy state that is turned into hydrogen and oxygen. It's NOT fuel. It's closer to the electrolytes in a capacitor or something. Though, fuel cells use a chemical reaction unlike capacitors.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 04:21:09 am
content: Quote from: Don Hills on February 17, 2016, 10:41:23 pmWe've had "pay at the pump" systems for years,but they were not popular,as most people wanted to buy something else while they were there.They have been removed at some sites.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 04:47:13 am
content: Most "pay at the pump" here is for unattended sites, such as those attached to supermarkets (buy enough groceries, get a discount voucher for the pump) and truck stops. As for technology that time forgot:Low volume EFTPOS terminals use dial-up to connect to the processing site. 1200 bps, synchronous modems. SDLC protocol. Dedicated terminals have the modem built in, but one locally manufactured brand of unattended pump terminal here used "real" modems. Spares were a problem, as no-one makes low-speed synchronous capable modems any more...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 09:30:06 am
content: Quote from: rickey1990 on February 17, 2016, 12:40:12 pmBut the energy doesn't come from the salt water.Energy is required to produce hydrogen from the salt water and is recovered when the hydrogen is burnt. It's not a primary source of energy. Like electricity, energy is needed to generate it, whether it be from oil, coal or wind and solar.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 09:45:19 am
content: Biggest issue with Hydrogen is the explosive concentration range. 18.3% is explosive, 59% is explosive, and anything in between is also explosive. Yes, a leak will burn with only a UV visible flame, and a lot of IR heat, but a leak that is not lit for a few seconds is an explosive looking for an ignition source. About as safe to use as actylene, and different in that the burning is not a visible soot producing flame in many cases. Major disadvantage is that a spark too small to feel from a static discharge can ignite a leak.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_safety

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 10:29:47 am
content: QuoteTrue enough, and I am certainly not claiming it's safe (the invisible flame is the bit that scares me .... imagine a tank with a small, lit, vent - you could easily walk straight into it before you know there was a problem) but we deal with worse things on a regular basis. LPG has 'interesting' safety features too (e.g. you can suffocate in it, because it collects at ground level) but we manage to cope with that...it does have much lesser ranges of explosive concentration though (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit). Petrol is also pretty nasty stuff...getting doused in it is really good way to have a bad day.The Hindenburg was the biggest PR disaster for Hydrogen, but it wasn't actually the hydrogen burning that you see in the films, that was the flammable laquer they put on the envelope. The Hydrogen kicked the whole thing off, but it was long gone by the time of the spectacular film reel. I'mnotadvocating for Hydrogen, I'm not sufficiently versed in the detail of it all to know what the real pros and cons are, but its important that we don't run away from considering it because of events some eighty years ago.DAVE

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 11:39:49 am
content: Quote from: Don Hills on February 20, 2016, 04:47:13 amPay at pump is surprisingly rare in the UK- I've seen it a few times over the years but even when a pump has the facility, it's more common to see it saying "not in use - pay in shop" than working.Maybe because fuel duty rates here are so high that stations make very little on fuel sales so want to get people in the shop for more profitable sales of other stuff.There may also be issues of safety regulations & licensing requiring staff nearby - I think I've only ever seen one unattended site, and pretty sure that had CCTV for manual pump enabling.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 04:20:51 pm
content: This thread reminds me, I vaguely remember a few years ago some kid won first place in the local science fair for proposing (he didn't actually build it) a car which ran on hydrogen generated by electrolysis from water using the car's own electrical system, and the exhaust was... condensed and piped back into the water tank.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 09:46:55 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 20, 2016, 11:39:49 amThe tax situation is similar here. There's no profit in gas sales, only in the convenience shop. The unattended site I usually use is situated next door to the supermarket. There's an intercom on the pump which connects to the supermarket if you need help. Even the spill management kit is "do it yourself"... a wheely bin full of equipment. There are a few completely unattended truck stops around, situated next to common truck routes.

author: sca
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 12:26:06 pm
content: QuoteMust depend on where you are in the country. In this area (South Yorkshire) nearly all the supermarket pumps are pay at pump, and are used as such by plenty of customers. Both Asda and Morrisons do unattended fills after the kiosks shut, and some of the Asda sites have no kiosk at all, just an intercom back to the main shop.I try to use them where possible - much better than queuing to pay, particularly when the stations are understaffed at busy spells.I'm not sure I can think of many non-supermarket pay-at-pumps though.There's also been a recent surge in the number of pumps fitted with 'fixed amount' options - either choose a number of litres or value in £ and the pump cuts off. Much better than fiddling to hit a multiple of £10 on the odd occasions I pay by cash.sca

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 02:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: sca on February 22, 2016, 12:26:06 pmInteresting, I've never seen one of those. I don't usually pay for petrol with cash but when I do I get a round number and I can bypass the queue to pay at my local petrol station, just put the notes on the counter where the guy can see it and walk out, he then processes the transaction a few minutes later after all the people faffing with cards and buying cigarettes have gone.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 03:29:34 pm
content: Don't forget hydrogen embrittlement:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlementThe consequence is that a pressure vessel will degrade over time when used to store hydrogen and possibly blow out. This has happened recently:http://www.cffca.us/Hydrogen%20Homemade%20Fuel%20PPT%202014%20Stilp.pdfThey were incredibly lucky that the gas didn't actually ignite - the damage was purely due to the tank bursting.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 05:36:03 pm
content: Lucky here there are no self service pumps, all are attended pumps. My local garage does however know me, and know I always do my own fuel. Comes from being a plane pump jockey, fill the tanks, wash the windscreen and polish the panel inside - the daily job of an instrument tech.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 11:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on February 22, 2016, 02:01:05 pmThe pay-at-pump site I usually use has a cash acceptor. Insert cash and enter your pump's number. The pump cuts off when the purchased amount has been dispensed. Even the atttended sites here have had a similar feature for many years - enter the dollar amount on a pinpad at the pump, it cuts off at that figure, then you go in and pay.

author: Chris C
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 12:38:45 am
content: Quote from: janoc on February 22, 2016, 03:29:34 pmThank you for mentioning that.Anyone considering DIY hydrogen generation and storage should read the PDF  linked. Especially the part about Sylmar suffering FOUR explosions, and their consequences.Generate all the hydrogen you want, but NEVER store it. The risk is just too high.There are numerous novel methods to produce hydrogen. Put a bit of Galinstan or mercury on scrap aluminum to break the oxide layer, drop it in water, and you can even produce hydrogen with no electrical input at all! But without an efficient and safe method of storing the hydrogen, all these methods are soon forgotten, to be reinvented by someone else every few years.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 02:10:24 am
content: Quote from: sca on February 22, 2016, 12:26:06 pmMost of the ones in Oz are similar,except AFAIK,you can only select dollar amounts,rather than litres.There are preset amounts ,or you can key in whatever cash amount you want to pay,like ATMs.They have a "Fill" option,though------the pump automatically stops when it senses the tank is full.Some places lock up like it is in a war zone,after 9pm,& you have to pay through a window.Others have a lane of pumps which are not easily visible,where they require you to pre-pay a fixed amount before you fill your car.Stupidly,these are usually marked with a grey & white notice a bit bigger than a credit card,which you can easily miss.If you do,they yell at you over the PA system.Do that once,& I don't come back!!!Others,still,use that method after 9pm.I have seen quite a lot of "pay at the pump",(which only accept cards,no cash),setups disabled.Many years ago,in South Australia,they had coin operated pumps.Trying to find $20 or so worth of coins after hours was no fun!

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 02:16:12 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 23, 2016, 02:10:24 amHa. I remember the days when you would have to do that to make a long distance phone call on a pay phone.In the US "pay at the pump" and self serve gas is the norm although in at least some places - like in Oregon - it is not. In Oregon they will not even let you pump your own gas at all. You have to let an attendant do it "full serve". I guess it creates gas attendant jobs...