Grumpy rant #783 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 02:11:39 pm
content: Brits love to think their electrical plugs are the best in the world.No, they are not. Most plugs are not unsafe whatsoever. They are simply less stupidly overdesigned.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 02:49:22 pm
content: Those are fighting words!BS1363 is a good plug and while bulky this does carry the advantage of ruggedness. You will break your food before you break the plug.A decent plug is Schuko, but it has other issues like lack of polarisation in most cases.The Australian plugs have the nice advantage of plugs being backwards compatible up to high current ratings, which is something BS1363 never made any accommodation for.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 03:00:50 pm
content: A rubber car would sound good to some of these guys.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 03:04:10 pm
content: All mains plugs in the continents I visited have something imperfect.For all (most) designs are 100+ years oldIf you look at modern connectors for 230V most have a form of wire strain relief are way smaller and can handle higher currents.But the same as why modern homes still do not have a low dc supply for charging all the small stuff and for led lighting it is because changes have a huge impact.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 03:45:45 pm
content: Biggest issue with the uk plug is standing on one,barefooted ,apart from that there most excellent,and i do likes how you can stack the aussie plugs up like a leaning tower of pizza ,who needs a double socket? As for the rest ?no thanks, i mean the shuko what a great idea lets use a non polarised plug on our table lamps with an ES base what could possible go wrong? And then theres the 101 different plugs the americans decided they need,all made of metal that bends if you look at it wrong and cables exiting 90 degrees to the socket ,nah. I could live with the south african system ,after all its based on the third best system in the world,the uk's old 15A plug and socket.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 04:22:48 pm
content: Can you enumerate the 101 plugs in use in the USA?For domestic use at 15 A @ 120 V, we use the NEMA 5-15, sometimes called 5-15P to indicate "plug".https://ev-lectron.com/blogs/blog/what-is-nema-5-15-plug

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 04:27:44 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on October 05, 2023, 03:04:10 pmAlso, it's not at all obvious thats a good idea. What voltage would it be? Some people would want 5V as USB, others 12V since that's the primary output of most computer power supplies. Laptops generally use about 20. Realistically 5V and 12 V are too low to distribute even across the size of a house, even for low power applications. 24V and above start arcing like crazy unless you have smart switching and/or heavily limit bus capacitance.In almost all cases you would still need a step-down converter at the loads. You would be able to use non-isolated buck converters, and save on safety isolation, but it's not clear to me that is a huge deal.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 04:53:09 pm
content: QuoteAnd that dont include the 2 pin earth not included ,or twist and pray hubbles i've encountered with american electrical system,although admittedly the hubbles were on an american base in the uk, not actual yankyland.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 05:17:47 pm
content: Yes, for 120 V service, the NEMA 5-15 and 5-20 wall sockets can both be used with the 5-15 plug, which is found on virtually all 120 V appliances in the US.The extra groove on the 5-20 indicates that the circuit breaker on that circuit is 20 A, while the 5-15 is fed from a 15 A breaker.I'm sure they exist, but I don't own any 5-20 plugs that will not mate with the 5-15 socket.The others you show are much rarer, since 240 V circuits are not common in household circuits (except for air conditioners).Even larger plugs are used with electric clothes dryers that need more than 20 A: typical 30 A at 240 V.Ungrounded 120 V outlets are no longer permitted in new household wiring.We are far from the mythical 101 types that you suggested.When visiting the US, how many wall outlets did you see that were not NEMA 5-15 or 5-20?My favorite use for the BS1363 socket was in a hotel bathroom in Saudi Arabia, where the exhaust fan was powered through two stripped ends of a zip-cord power cable that were inserted in the power sockets, held in place by the safety spring that had been opened by inserting a screwdriver into the ground socket to move the shutter.I contemplated that connection while seated below the fan.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 05:41:30 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on October 05, 2023, 04:27:44 pmI have seen wall outlets in the US, typically in hotel rooms, that included a USB connector for charging.I assume the cheap LV circuit is in the outlet box behind the socket.It is also very common to include USB charging outlets in outlet strips, used instead of extension cords that include a local circuit breaker.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 05:55:18 pm
content: QuoteIn the uk at least there built into the socket,which introduces its own problems with heat build up,the need for a deeper back box and having to removing them when testing the circuit

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 06:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 05, 2023, 02:49:22 pmThe 2 pin Schuko has a nice positive fit, unlike the US 2 pin that dangles and falls out too easily. It shrouds the pins which is good, compared to the US plugs. It has 2 downsides, though. The 3 pin plugs can have a somewhat iffy earth connection, and the lead sticks out the back. With the UK and China/Australian plugs pushed into a wall socket the lead hangs neatly against the wall. The Schuko lead sticks out, and is easily whacked by furniture and other things.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 06:12:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on October 05, 2023, 03:04:10 pmFrankly putting such stuff into your home was impractical with ever changing charging technology. Say you had 5V charging sockets, they sort of can charge modern phones but at very low speed and some phones will pull more current than PSU can safely supply, often tripping protection and endlessly power cycling. Placing some permanent installation which you need to replace every few years is not the smartest thing to do, not to say most of the charging sockets available today are totally outdated. For laptops it's even worse. With a lack of common standard, it would be nearly useless and prone to destroying devices. USB-C PD probably will change that.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 06:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 05, 2023, 06:00:50 pmThe vast majority of Schuko plugs have cable going out at 90oangle.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 06:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 05, 2023, 06:12:23 pmYep. It wouldn't add any value. You can still install mains sockets with USB charging ports (those sockets can easily be changed and are not very expensive) if you want it integrated in your wall. Or just use external chargers just like we do, that have the benefit of being usable anywhere.Quote from: wraper on October 05, 2023, 06:12:23 pmUSB-C PD will keep being revised just like any other previous standards, so that if you made that part of home mains installations, that would become "obsolete" (at least in the sense of not being able to provide as much power as the more recent revisions, thus being unusable with some potential newer devices) over time anyway.The reason mains AC has been the norm for a long time and still the norm is that it's the most reasonable common denominator for distributing electricity that can adapt to pretty much anything without requiring a constant stream of changes.If it became suddenly *mandatory* to equip new homes with USB-C PD ports, then it would by nature make that planned obsolescence that would require updates every few years, while an AC installation can last for decades.OTOH again, anyone who wants USB-C PD ports in some wall sockets can install them for a relatively reasonable cost, then it is their decision and their responsibility.Like this:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Double-Socket-Charging-Screwless-Design/dp/B09SVGDDK4these are available all over the place these days - and the above is dirt cheap, count around 40-50 pounds for one from a major brand.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 06:28:46 pm
content: The worst are protected Schuko sockets. UK plug have protected shutter driven by earth pin and that works very nicely. In Schuko sockets on other hand that is not possible to implement, so they rely on both prongs pushed into the holes simultaneously. It's not reliable at all and cheap sockets often are extremely difficult to plug in, especially after some wear happened. Extremely bad with unearthed plugs with thinner prongs which often even get bent while trying to plug in. More expensive sockets are more or less OK but mechanism still is a shitty workaround. I prefer buying extension cords with unprotected sockets when available.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 06:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 05, 2023, 06:28:31 pmWhile it likely will be revised, current standard is good enough for most of things and is quite future proof if manufacturers do backwards capability properly.QuoteIf there is any socket that can supply 240W according to current standard, IMHO it should be capable charging anything in foreseeable future.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 07:31:16 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 05, 2023, 02:49:22 pmThe reader is reminded of the fact that we usually are conveyingalternating currentover these plugs, which means that polarisation is wrong 50 or 60 times per second. Hence, "polarisation" is for people who still think in DC. The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves. (Three-phase is another game, of course. But since the english-speaking world is afraid of it, because Edison, most people never get to have it. )

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 07:44:50 pm
content: Quoteso what if its changing 50 or 60 times a second,in most parts of the world one of those pins is carrying a nasty surprise to earth if you grab it,the other maybe a faint tickle so only being able to plug it in one way around becomes rather important in certain cases.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 07:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 05, 2023, 07:31:16 pmIn this context, "polarization" refers to non-interchange of Line and Neutral power connections.In the US, the NEMA 5-15 series uses a wider flat blade for Neutral than the flat blade used for Line: this is a useful requirement, but I have seen badly-installed sockets where that was violated.(Of course, the "third prong" is ground or PE.)Three-phase AC is readily available in commercial and industrial locations in the US, an English-speaking country, but the utilities try not to install it in single-family residential neighborhoods (defined by municipal zoning ordinances).

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 07:46:03 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 05, 2023, 07:31:16 pmNot quite; neutral in the UK is at earth potential (or should be...), the phase alternates between positive and negative wrt this. Still a bad idea to touch it of course, for numerous reasons.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 07:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 05, 2023, 07:31:16 pmAnd they are equally dangerous and untouchable because even if you touch neutral you could still get a lethal zap, depending on the local installation standard (neutral isn't tied to earth everywhere!), the condition of the wiring/earthing, etc.There are also the popular and very commonplace (except in Germany, AFAIK, where they are illegal because of the extra mechanical load they put on outlets) T-shape splitters that often swap live and neutral on one side. Same as many outlets that are installed incorrectly, with the live and neutral swapped around. So anything designed in a way that relies on/requires polarization of the plug would be unsafe, making its absence pretty much a non-issue in practice.The two pin Europlug (CEE 7/16) is explicitly designed only for doubly insulated equipment where this is not an issue.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:01:51 pm
content: Quoteedison screw lamp bases

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:08:57 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 05, 2023, 02:11:39 pmWhat really annoys the British is when the freaking Chinese try to copy our beloved 13 Amp plugs designed to an ancient British Standardand still manage to get it dangerously wrong.See this picture. So can you spot was is not correct? And which describes your reaction?Not British reactionBritish reactionI mean, it's like the British just stepped on a British plug

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 05, 2023, 07:44:50 pm"The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves. "

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 05, 2023, 07:44:59 pm"The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves. "

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:12:06 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 05, 2023, 07:46:03 pm"The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves."

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:13:01 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 05, 2023, 08:01:51 pmNot on the continent, where they are insulated and safe to touch. Or forbidden.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:15:08 pm
content: Knowing of this potential problem, I checked all my outlets at home with a cheap three-pin, three-bulb tester to ensure:1. Line (narrow) and Neutral (wide) are not interchanged.2. Ground/PE is connected properly.https://www.amazon.com/Receptacle-Tester-Klein-Tools-RT110/dp/B01AKX3AYE/ref=asc_df_B01AKX3AYE/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309778489815&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15379320970737851598&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021749&hvtargid=pla-571548716375&psc=1

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 05, 2023, 06:35:55 pmAdding a 240W USB-PD charger to most or all outlets (which is what "making it standard" would presumably mean) would be expensive and provide little value to most people. Also, I've never seen outlets available with more than about 30W. I'm not sure how practical it is to put a 240W supply into a wall outlet box. But anyone can go buy the lower powered units at home depot an install them where you want them in a few minutes. I'm not a fan for home use, but if people like it, that's great. No need to adopt any new standard, it already exists.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 08:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 05, 2023, 08:01:51 pmEven if you had a polarized plug with Edison lamp base it still wouldn't be safe, due to all the issues outlined in my original post.Edison lamp bases predate any sort of plug standard and certainly any sort of modern safety standards, so those are not the best example. They come from the time when having bare wiring on the walls and knife switches in living rooms has been completely normal way of doing things. Or toasters like this:https://www.sparkmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/GeneralElectricD-12toaster_SPARKMuseum-768x741.jpgOr live chassis radios and later TVs.We got rid of all the latter, the Edison bases remain only because they are so ubiquitous - and as long as people don't stick their pinkies where they wouldn't their dinky (and/or pull the plug out of the wall/turn off a breaker when changing a bulb!) they are reasonably safe, unlike the rest of the list above.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 09:52:53 pm
content: Yes, stuff built many decades ago, especially with two-prong unpolarized plugs, may be unsafe.Go thou and do not do likewise.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 10:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 05, 2023, 06:15:14 pmI'm seeing more "out the back" than "out the side" plugs here in the office, so no, the entry direction/type is not strongly linked with the plug standard. AS3112 versions even exist without strain relief boots.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 08:41:46 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 05, 2023, 10:35:58 pmYeah, it is certainly false. Schuko leads exist in both straight and 90 degree variants and both are common. Especially anything where the cable is captive and not using an IEC plug at the other end tends to have a straight Schuko - e.g. large appliances like washing machines, fridges, etc. Extension cords the same thing - the plug end is usually straight and not 90 degrees. E.g. the power bar under my bench has 4 straight Schukos and 3 90 degree ones plugged in right now - all stuff like soldering iron, power supplies, bench meter, etc.So one certainly has to pay attention to not damage the cables by smashing the plugs with furniture and similar. OTOH, in most cases where the plug does get in the way it is a fairly easy problem to solve - either swap the cable if it has an IEC connector or use an extension cord/T-splitter. For the really problematic situations where even a regular 90 degrees Schuko sticks too far out there are even special flat plugs being sold.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 07:56:26 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 05, 2023, 08:13:01 pmCould you share a picture of an insulated, safe-to-touch E27 lamp socket? I don't think I have ever seen one. In the sockets I am familiar with, both contacts on the inside -- the one on the thread, and the one at the bottom -- can be touched when the bulb is unscrewed.But since both contacts can be touched anyway, connecting the socket via a polarized plug wouldn't make it much safer...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 08:12:53 pm
content: To be fair, it's more difficult to touch the button contact ("live") than the threaded contact ("neutral") with the bulb removed.I'm more concerned about touching the thread while removing the bulb: that's why I prefer properly polarized connections, where only a few volts lie on the "neutral".

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 06:46:14 am
content: This thread has come to the realisation there is no safe or foolproof outlet design.Mostly thanks to ill-informed installers, designers or users.The most reliable safety solution is to use whatever combination of bare conductors you want, and liberal use of RCD/RCBO protection devices as close to the main isolator as possible.- or for those having ‘special needs’, a fixed wiring path from the main switchboard to the ‘point of use’.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 08:51:58 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on October 06, 2023, 07:56:26 pmThe ones in 110v festoon lighting are about as safe as they get; the thread is plastic with only a small contact near the bottom, and if you're fool enough to stick your fingie between that and the centre contact, you only get 110v across the tip of your digit.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 09:27:54 am
content: You won't get the standards changed by ranting, so get used to them?UK plugs best in the world? Looks like he was made by a maniac, or when circuit breakers didn't exist.Most Europe uses Shucko, we're just fine, we're not dying in thousands.Looks like chaos? Ask Japan, where Tokyo is the line dividing the country in 220V and 110V. I guess it's the reason they sell so many electronics!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 09:54:13 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on October 07, 2023, 09:27:54 amWrong on34 (5?) points: Japan being universally 100V with some 200V higher power loads, 50/60 Hz division, the boundary being clearly defined along a river 100km outside of Tokyo:https://www.kepco.co.jp/english/home/denki/01.html

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 11:04:22 am
content: The safety of plugs is a non-issue. Regardless of the design, people dying from household electrocution AND specifically caused by the plug/outlet themselves is nil. System-wide alternatives exist (such as GFCI in the US or any leakage protection circuit breaker) as well as the mandatory ground/earth connection in installations, general education and improvements in materials and quality of plugs.Obviously that anything can be circumvented and the flood of low quality products also compounds the problem. But even with all these factors in place the obsession with "safety" has very diminishing returns. I come from a country where the same "Saudi Arabia M.O." mentioned before is used at large, ground/earth is a russian roulette and people stubbornly still manage to be alive. Heck, we shower with a 5kW (typical) electrical powerhouse in our heads (mostly unearthed) and people still refuse from dying.One thing is certain: a great deal of money can be made by promoting fear. Some 10 years ago Brasil adopted a new standard of outlets and plugs that was sold to the general public as one of the safest options in the world, but at the great expense of the general population that had to foot the bill in replacing/changing their appliances and household outlets but without a serious enforcement of the existing national electrical code standards. Guess which one is cheaper from a government perspective?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 01:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 07, 2023, 09:54:13 amI think he is confused about the dividing line between 50 Hz (Tokyo, etc.) and 60 Hz (Osaka, etc.) line frequencies.As I remember, the dividing line is somewhere around Shizuoka.The supply voltage standard is the same.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 07:40:32 pm
content: I recently watched or read this somewhere, supposedly Japan had mixed 110v / 220v depending on areas.Will research this more, maybe I read BS.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 07:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on October 07, 2023, 07:40:32 pmJapan has 220V mains, just like the US has 220V mains. Two lots of 110V, with a 180 degree phase shift.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 08:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 07, 2023, 07:48:30 pmOnce again, the normal NEMA 5-15 and 5-20 outlets that are ubiquitous in the US have 120 V line-neutral, although a normal house is fed with 120-0-120 V to allow high-power 240 V loads, such as air conditioners and clothes dryers.When working in Japan and installing equipment, I was surprised that the 3-phase mains were typically 200 V rms line-line and the 1-phase mains were 100 V rms line-neutral.Those numbers do not correspond by the usual 120 degree trigonometry: Typical US is 120 V line-neutral and 208 V line-line, which agree with each other.https://www.kepco.co.jp/english/home/denki/01.htmlhttps://www.stamford-avk.com/sites/stamfordavk/files/AGN203_B.pdf

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:32:09 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 07, 2023, 07:48:30 pmUS is 240V, 120V x2, and Japan is 200V, 100V x2.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 02:52:06 pm
content: Yeah, I swear I found this very recently searching for something related.But it seems I mixed 3 different memories and made an entirely new thing after a bad sleeping night

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 07:27:25 pm
content: Yea, but can your outlets do this?

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 07:31:48 pm
content: I say that worldwide everyone should switch to 30 volts DC. Best and safest current for all purposes.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 07:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 08, 2023, 07:31:48 pmThat would work well with the infamous 3 kW British tea kettles.100 A requires, perhaps, AWG 0 = 8.25 mm diam = 53.5 mm2wire.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 08:53:06 pm
content: I prefer the Australia sad outlets. The higher the power the sadder they get.They probably were designed in times where electric energy was really expensive!

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 08:54:06 pm
content: Yes, we have "high power" in industrial and commercial locations as well.Please parse my statement literally: I was comparing 240 V to 120 V, and 240 > 120 in all nations.This .pdf file lists the standard voltages available in ChicagoCommonwealth Edison Service Voltages.pdf(33.78 kB - downloaded 37 times.)Is 34 kV enough for you?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:20:07 pm
content: By the way, a typical US home-kitchen electric stove, with four burners and an oven, runs on 240 V (line-line) single phase, pulling 22.5 kW and requiring a 50 A circuit.If it plugs in, the US outlet is a four-contact NEMA 14-50R.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:01:52 pm
content: Quotethe plug would be bigger than the kettle

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:14:58 pm
content: In the US, I think the "regular" NEMA series only goes up to 60 A, for AWG 4 wires. It is roughly 2.5 inch diameter.A "pin and sleeve" NEMA 4X for 100 A is roughly 3 inch diameter.https://rexel-cdn.com/products/platt-vendor-pr8-cutsheet.pdf?i=42F563FE-CF24-4A8F-BCCA-F1FADEDD6A29It would make the tea kettle difficult to use.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:31:21 pm
content: Quoteour standard connector for larger power is the ceeform(IEC 60309) a 125A 3 pin would be about 4" in diameter and 12" long

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 08, 2023, 07:39:47 pmYou can keep your clunky plugs for kettles and such. Most everything else can run on safe current.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:17:04 pm
content: Quote from: PapierzToaletowy on October 08, 2023, 10:20:26 pmYes, social media are popular among the clever young people.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 01:27:47 am
content: This is how we do it in California:

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 06:10:08 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on October 08, 2023, 08:53:06 pmI've never seen most of them in person, I guess most are outdated.I do however have a UPS with one of these plugs:I've had a couple of conversations with the electrician on whether I can get this hooked up in the house. The plugs are rated for 32A but I'll only be pulling 25A tops.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 06:56:35 am
content: Quote from: John B on October 09, 2023, 06:10:08 amThats an AS3123 series "industrial" plug, like the residential/commercial sockets they have some rather elegant scaling/interconnection where a universal socket can support a wide range of plugs, or a limited socket mechanically self restricts what can be plugged in. 2 sizes of shell in common use, 10-20A and 32-50A. Wikipedia says there are larger 50-80 and 100-200 series but I've never seen them. Simpler than the EU or US schemes.They're going to be much more common in residential settings with uptake of electric cars.

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 07:19:37 am
content: I got a deal on this one!

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:07:30 pm
content: I assume in America that fan runs at half the speed?

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 01:59:32 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on October 09, 2023, 09:07:30 pmWe don't plan for much more than half speed from Chinese fans anyway, so it did meet expectations.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 08:04:35 am
content: Quote from: mansaxel on October 05, 2023, 07:31:16 pmMost electrical installations in the world tie neutral close to earth*, so neutral will only measure a few volts AC above earth and live will measure +/-320V.This feature is used in many inexpensive devices, table lamps for instance often only switch the live terminal, so the exposed lamp terminals are safe to touch. Since UK electrical installations require polarised sockets (which are tested before use) and polarised plugs, this is safe.If you don't have a polarised socket you need double pole switches everywhere. Have a look at the devices you own and think how many of them actually use double pole. Most of the time, double pole is only used for larger appliances with greater safety standards (two switches need to fail to not isolate appliance for instance).*The obvious exception is the USA with its split phase 120V on 240V sockets, but even the USA uses neutral at ~0V and one live conductor for their 120V sockets. The majority of European countries have neutral close to ~0V.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 09:03:20 am
content: This is fine, until you lose neutral due to cabling failure or some dumbass swaps phase with neutral upstream of the device.I have personally seen the latter happen on an old three phase installation, with designated neutral but no safety earth. Lots of fun ensuedThis is why civilized people no longer rely on the alleged "safety" of neutral

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 11:00:37 am
content: QuoteNot that uncommon event for a few years post 2004 ,even the dno got confused

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 11:11:45 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 10, 2023, 11:00:37 amHow? We have PEN for the majority of homes in the UK. Swapping live and neutral isn't possible as it would immediately blow the fuse at the substation or at the premises, with a direct path from the PEN terminal to earth in the plumbing. The only mistake that's possible is live and neutral at the installation, which can be eliminated by socket testers, but requires the electrician to actually use them. I found at least one socket here with L/N swapped, easy fix but silly that it even happened!

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 11:47:37 am
content: QuoteApart from those places that are TNS or TT.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 04:09:51 pm
content: I'd like to see a new world standard, but likely it won't happen in my lifetime.USB ports are fairly universal, and some variants can deliver up to 240 watts.Of course a little USB C plug would be ridiculous tor a kettle, but I'd like to see a "big brother" version for higher wattage.But that's just me.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 04:15:45 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 10, 2023, 04:09:51 pmhttps://xkcd.com/927/We have a near universal standard for a plug that goes into a kettle, and you want a new one? This persons needs to be kept very far from any standardisation process.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 04:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 10, 2023, 04:09:51 pmThis cartoon is the standard description of this process:https://xkcd.com/927/[Coppice found it ahead of me.]

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 06:09:38 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2023, 04:15:45 pmSince you missed the point, I will reiterate:Most low-powered applications (electronics, small appliances, LED lighting) could be covered by USB.A higher wattage standard would be needed for kettles, etc.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 06:14:47 pm
content: USB-connector chargers for low-power objects are small, and when the standard changes yet again they can be replaced with newer ones.The NEMA-standard US sockets will remain in place in the US during those transitions.In other countries, they shall stick with their standards, as well.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 05:28:19 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 10, 2023, 06:14:47 pmLet's assume that USB will continue to evolve past 240 watts as it is currently. Is that not enough for most of the things we use in the home? Why should a toaster or a kettle or a microwave also be compatible with that standard?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 07:14:02 pm
content: Why should I spend money to re-wire my house, for no benefit to me, to help your silly idea?What if I need to plug something into a wall outlet, for example in my garage, while wearing gloves?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 08:19:18 pm
content: You will do it because it makes your whole digital life more convenient and simply better.USB 4.0 introduces the new Power Delivery 3.0 specification, which permits mains passthrough with automatic negotiation of voltage and frequency. Gone are the days of travel adapters, step-up transformers or voltage switches hidden on the rear panel. All you need is USB 4.0 enabled devices and a USB cable, and USB 4.0 mains which you will invest in because everybody does.Revision 4.1 will add a new type D connector, which can be rotated arbitrarily in 90° increments and includes additional wiring to carry 20Gb/s data and three phase power for your most demanding peripherals such as intelligent welders, electric vehicles and similar.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 08:39:05 pm
content: Not I, said the fox to the little red hen.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 09:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: magic on October 11, 2023, 08:19:18 pmWill USB 5.0 support megawatt charging? It's really inconvenient to have to wait for my phone to charge up. I'd like if it could be charged in 18 milliseconds instead.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 09:55:59 pm
content: Instead, to minimize EMI problems from crappy switching DC supplies, we can install rotating shafts at a safe height above the floor, near the ceiling, and run belts down to generators mounted on the equipment.No fossil fuel need be involved: the shafts can be driven from windmills.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 10:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 11, 2023, 09:18:09 pmIndeed, USB5.0 will charge your EV at 480V while you use your phone - all using the same wire!

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 11:01:27 pm
content: No need to rewire a house, but new houses going forward could be wired with safe USB throughout the house, but higher wattage appliances could be wired directly to high-current power.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 11:01:45 pm
content: And after we are bored with USB 5.0, we will rediscover 120 V, 60 Hz and AWG 12 wiring.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 11:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 11, 2023, 11:01:27 pmSo, my kitchen toaster would need to be directly wired to the wall (and therefore remain in one place).How would I connect a good-sized vacuum cleaner? Typical power 1400 W (500 to 3000 W), but needs to plug into various rooms of the house.That's far more than current 240 W, and 3 kW at 30 V would be 100 A (a bit high for a practicable cable).You haven't thought this nonsense through, and your proposed solution does not have a real problem that requires it.Now, in my experience, wall outlets are often in the wrong place, where furniture needs to go.My solution, for the digital-heavy corner at my computer desk, is to place a proper outlet strip (with 5 120 V outlets and a circuit breaker) that also contains two USB sockets on my desktop.Should a new low-voltage standard come to pass, I can easily replace such an outlet strip.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 05:15:10 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 11, 2023, 11:50:00 pmMy washing machine stays in one place, but I have a plug for it. My stove doesn't have one.Nobody would be forcing anyone to do anything.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 05:19:10 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 12, 2023, 05:15:10 pmNor shall I allow you and your ilk to force me.Do you use a vacuum cleaner?

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 06:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 12, 2023, 05:19:10 pmMy Dyson has a lithium battery, easily serviceable by USB.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 06:59:55 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 12, 2023, 06:24:53 pmSo now I must scrap my perfectly good line-operated vacuum cleaner?Who died and made you my robot overlord?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 09:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 11, 2023, 10:52:31 pmDon't give the EU ideas!They could very well mandate the replacement of mains AC with USB-C v. xxx at some point.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 10:04:43 pm
content: Although apparently francophone, the original poster is a man without a country.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 04:33:23 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 12, 2023, 06:59:55 pmWill you take the red pill or the blue pill?

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 03:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 12, 2023, 10:04:43 pmThanks, Sherlock.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 03:25:40 pm
content: This is probably the reason there is no world standard. Everybody fights change. I'd hate to see more countries taking the "rubber room" approach to it like the UK.I'm unhappy enough trying to get my 3-prong bulky laptop power cord into my carrying bag. I like the newer ones that are powered by USB-C. I think there's a lot to be gained by adding USB to the existing power outlet standards. If not for total safety of it alone.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 03:37:07 pm
content: Of course, UK power plugs don't need to be as bulky as they actually are, it's just the cheapest implementation of the standard. See Apple's iPhone charger design for instance. The UK market is big enough that they have a custom plug with folding pins. A single spring pops all pins out when you unfold the earth pin. The regulatory information is hidden under the pins. It's rather elegant all considered.https://theoutletshop.co.uk/products/apple-5w-usb-power-adapter-folding-pins-new

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 04:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 13, 2023, 03:25:40 pmFeel free to add USB-type power outlets to existing wall sockets, next to the real ones in the same box.The next generation can change those USB outlets to later standards without interfering with the real outlets.In the US, where 120 V plugs are a civilized size (not the ancient flimsy ones to which people object, nor the huge ones needed for 240 V), the standard outlet wall box is 2x4 inch (single) or 4x4 inch (double).The single box usually holds two thingies above each other (two outlets, two switches, or one of each) or one switch.The double box that usually holds two to four thingies has enough room next to the real outlets for a USB thingy."Thingy" in French is "truc", depending on context.The original English word "thingamajig" apparently is the source for the formal English word "jig" for a fixture, and the informal word "thingy".

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 05:24:04 pm
content: Quotethose huge boxes (for the far superior systemt) aint much bigger, a single box is around 3" x 3" and a double around 6" x 3"

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 05:28:39 pm
content: However, in the US we get more outlets per linear inch of outlet strip, due to the smaller plugs for the safer voltage level of 120 V.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 05:41:05 pm
content: I don't think I'm alone in who finds excessive caution aggravating. The driver in front of you who chooses to drive well under the speed limit; the gas station that removes the fuel nozzle latch, so that you are forced to hold the trigger throughout the fill, and countless other purported "safety measures" which do very little or nothing to save lives or prevent injury. There's always someone trying to outlaw pressure cookers or lower all the speed limits, but that is not risk management, it's "risk avoidance."I cringe every time I see a clunky UK lug, and I doubt that it saved many lives, at least to the extent that it outweighs the inconvenience.That's why I think a type of USB could provide both sufficient power for small appliances and total safety from possible electrocution, but a convenient sized plug that won't get in your way.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 06:49:40 pm
content: Again, here in the US we use what I consider to be a sensible-size plug for 120 VAC.I do not preach to other countries what plugs they should use on their power distribution.I have considered what small appliances are probably unsuitable for USB-level power connections.Besides kitchen appliances, we have a hair dryer, a good vacuum cleaner, and a good audio system (not a handheld device for compressed files and earbuds).TV sets larger than our modest flat-panel can pull from 75 to 120 W when operating, while a reasonable computer monitor draws maybe 55 W.In the kitchen, a full-size refrigerator pulls 350 to 780 W when running. With a wall plug, it is easy to replace when needed.Similarly, a dishwasher pulls over 1 kW when running: batteries not included.Also, consider my drill press: they range from 300 to 1000 W for reasonable sizes.Furthermore, table saw, and soldering station are examples of plug-in tools.You may like USB-style connectors: be sure to make them easy to replace if abused, but remember what else you need to power.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pm
content: I can't say I'm a fan of USB power socket outlets.- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).- Thirdly there has to be an to increased fire risk as socket quality and dodgy knock-offs fakes falls off the cliff to lowest cost. Not to mention spurious RCD tripping on circuits (with fridges, freezers etc) when one goes rougue.- Fourthly, ncreased replacement cost - by an Electrician for most consumers / countries.The idea of installing USB wiring around the house, presumably from some master PSU, with multiple outputs in the case of USB-C (you don't want all of your 5V devices getting hit with higher USB voltages when one device requests them), seems like a non starter to me. The cable csa needed to maintain USB voltage tolerance specs at low voltage and high current just doesn't sound economical.Far better to have a nice rugged mains outlet and plug format (), capable of supporting a modern plug top adapter that can be plugged in and removed as required.*

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 08:16:08 pm
content: QuoteCant recall the make,but someone was touting a socket were the usb could be turned off for testing,fine for initial verification but come on, how many unscrew every socket on a periodic test,and it seems mk have made the same mistake with the new smart socket.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 08:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pmThis depends a lot on design quality. If each thing sitting in a power socket - USB outlet, power monitor, wifi switch, etc - takes a only a few milliwatts of standby power, which they could, you need a lot of them to take even 1W. That's fine. The snag is just how well most of these things are actually designed for standby power? The EU seems addicted to efficiency marking products. They really should do something here. This one might actually be useful.Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pmDo these things even comply with the wiring regulations in any country requiring full testing of installation quality? Don't those tests usually require all the appliances be disconnected for testing?Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pmThis is a BIG BIG issue. Even the well known brands of electrical fittings seem to be sourcing their electronics packed fittings from less than top tier sources,Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pmThe typical lifetime of a USB socket, both from a wearout point of view and a relevance point of view, is going to be far less than simple electrical fittings. Most of the USB supply loaded sockets fitted to date are already standing idle, because they don't output enough power to suit 2023's needs. They will be playing catch up for years, as people's expectations of USB keep moving on.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 08:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 13, 2023, 08:33:28 pmFrom the video, they pull about 1Weachwith no load. Multiply that by maybe 20+ in a new build...QuoteYes, that's the traditional method, disconnect everything and insulation test at 500V. Any circuit that has active items that can't be disconnected must either be insulation tested at a lower voltage (230V) or put down as a limitation (untested) on the EICR report. What with modern wireless LED lighting controls, USB outlets [Edit: and smart sockets as themadhippy says], there will hardly be a circuit left that can be properly insulation tested. As far as compliance, yes I believe they are covered in the IEE wiring regs.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 08:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 08:50:39 pm1W or 1VA? 1W would be a ridiculous amount of idle power in a small PSU. 1VA is more understandable, as the low load PF can be awful in simple supplies.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 09:03:08 pm
content: Looking closely at the settings on the Hameg power meter in the video, that's 1W, not VA.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 09:35:21 pm
content: QuoteAnd if the new build is fitted with the latest afdi rcd mcb combos that take about the same power you could be looking at 5kw a week,before you plug anything in.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 09:46:04 pm
content: Yep. I'm still struggling to reconcile the overnight background load in our house since having the smart meter installed a couple of years back. Things like the RCBOs as you say, idle load of bathroom fans, Wiser heating controller, boiler etc, aside from the stuff like the router that I could unplug (but would be a pain in the ass). There are certainly not going to be any USB outlets going in!

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 08:39:34 pm
content: If the government mandates it, all new wiring will require it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 09:49:57 pm
content: Why would the government mandate it? For the reasons listed above, it makes no [Edit: practical or implementational] sense.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 10:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 14, 2023, 09:49:57 pmThere have been a lot of things in the UK wiring regulations that only seemed to be there to force people to buy stuff.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 12:37:56 am
content: QuoteThe regs aint retrospective (nor statutory) so if your told your old wylex rewireable fuseboard is illegal then the smell of bullshit is in the air.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 02:50:59 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 14, 2023, 08:39:34 pmTherefore, all good men should strive to keep the government from listening to twerps like you about what to mandate.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 09:35:23 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 15, 2023, 12:37:56 amIndeed, but if you do something that doesn't comply with the regs and someone gets hurt/property is damaged, you might be in for a bad time in court.You can keep your Wylex rewireable board if it's your property and you live there, if you rent it out it'll have to be replaced.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 11:37:25 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 14, 2023, 10:37:59 pmI don't think @Connecteur has the slightest clue when he talks about"new houses going forward could be wired with safe USB throughout the house, but higher wattage appliances could be wired directly to high-current power"(reply#84). Looking at the latest USB-C spec, it specifies 5A @ 48V for 240W maximum. Other lower voltages demand 5A capability too. That means that for every three Dual USB-C outlets we're looking at 30A max. Now for a mains 30A radial circuit (I don't think anyone would be suggesting USB ring mains at this point!) we're looking at 4mm2(clipped direct) or 6mm2(surrounded by thermal insulation) for current handling and acceptable voltage drop (relative to mains) over normal domestic distances.For the tighter voltage tolerance requirements of USB, we're going to be looking at a minimum of 6mm2cabling, and thats just forthreedual outlets, now multiply that by the actual number of outlets in a house. There's no way anyone is going to mandate putting that volume of copper into a house. ELV USB wiring is never going to replace mains wiring for non-fixed appliances, the losses, cable csa, and currents would simply be to large (higher than the fixed appliances at mains voltage). It wouldn't even be safer - more high current wiring terminations to that many outlets in a radial circuit would be more of a fire risk.The idea is in cloud cuckoo land.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 11:40:39 am
content: Does anyone else think that 48V DC on the USB-C connector, especially at 5A, is asking for trouble? It seems like the small pins on device and cable would pit pretty quickly if it is removed while in use. There's a lot of potential for arcing upon removal there.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 12:12:28 pm
content: I seem to get through a lot of USB-C leads and changing insertion orientation to keep my phone reliably rapid charging (which, for my phone, is a mere 10W), I even keep a dust cover on it... So yes, I do!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 12:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 15, 2023, 12:37:56 amWas that supposed to be a response to what I wrote? Seems like a random response.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 01:03:58 pm
content: Quotei was pointing out your not forced to buy stuff/upgrade your installation regardless of reg changesQuoteNo you wont, as long theirs a current test ticket your good to go.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 04:18:55 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 15, 2023, 11:40:39 amI'm not sure if 48V is too much for USB-C, but if it passed certification, it's probably fine. The overall size is to accommodate small devices, but some sort of wider socket might be designed to handle more wattage, while still being compatible with older USB-C plugs. We've had something similar before with the Micro-B 3.1 Gen2 double connector.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 05:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 15, 2023, 01:03:58 pmYou won't get one, it'll be a C1, fail.EDIT: You won't get alegitone*

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 05:58:37 pm
content: QuoteWhy? The very first page of the big book of rules says the regs dont apply retrospectivaly and as long as it meets the requirements for the time of installation its all good.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 08:08:19 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 15, 2023, 11:37:25 amWhich in itself is alarming evidence that it's likely to happen.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 08:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 15, 2023, 11:40:39 amFrom what i know this is a real problem for the higher Power over Ethernet modes that also run at 48 volt, but "just" about 2 amps.You are supposed to turn the power off before you unplug the cable, or the connectors might take arcing damage.Ok, the connectors are not designed with any kind of disconnect order, unlike USB, but they use much larger contacts.So yes, i would assume there is a risk of arcing damage if you unplug a USB-C connection that is actively supplying 240 watts.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 08:41:34 pm
content: Big Clive just did an AMPS LOAD TEST on a Chinesium power cord. Worth a look if you like melty fiery things.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 08:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on October 15, 2023, 08:34:16 pmIf its real standards compliant POE (there are cheap bodgy things loosely called POE) there is only a full 48V after negotiation. The powered device has to be able to start up in a low voltage low power mode to perform the negotiation. So, plugging in is OK. This is similar to USB power delivery. For both ethernet and USB its disconnecting which can lead to arcing. Bad, but at least you don't get huge inrush hits.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 08:55:13 pm
content: Yes, you're never going to get 48V from USB-C before it has been fully negotiated, so it won't happen when plugging. OTOH, it's going to happen when unplugging.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 08:57:13 pm
content: This could all end up as another TikTok challenge, but not as exciting as a 240 V arc.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 09:09:27 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 15, 2023, 08:57:13 pmCould lead to an interesting story arc.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 09:57:57 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 15, 2023, 08:53:37 pmUgh, don't get me started on all that crap thats called "PoE"...Look at the IEEE standards that a product supports. If it lists 802.11af (PoE), at (PoE+) or bt (PoE++), then you can be reasonably sure it's using proper PoE.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 10:07:18 am
content: Perhaps the standard will require 48VDC cables/devices to have 'staggered' comms pins, and the load peripheral can be designed to detect cable removal before it is actually removed from the conductors, turning off the SMPS near instantly. The TikTok challenge then comes, can you pull a cable out fast enough to get an arc and ruin your device/cable in record time...

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 05:34:21 pm
content: I have a usb socket on one outlet and I got rather annoyed as I couldn't find one that supports fast charging ports, they all seemed to be just the standard usb port that cant power much other that the fruit based products.It's only there for the oldies to charge thier phones and watches as there was too many usb chargers floating about making a mess in the kitchen.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 01:40:09 am
content: Beware, the standard may mandate to have our own implanted USB-C port at one point or another. I mean, it's USB-C. I'm not disclosing the location. It's gonna save the planet, or something. Maybe we should have a "USB-C day", to celebrate.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 02:04:00 am
content: By the time we get to USB 5 or 6, there might be a variant with a larger plug. Not everything needs to fit in a smartphone.Nothing so monstrous as the UK plug; something like the US 2-prong plug in size would be good.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 05:53:13 am
content: Future versions of USB will gradually morph into the IEEC (kettle) lead we are all accustomed to. Then some clever sod will invent a new cable for communicating and powering small items.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 05:12:46 pm
content: This is remotely related.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 05:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 17, 2023, 02:04:00 amAnd then mankind will progress to the next stage: NEMA 5-15.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 05:47:15 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 17, 2023, 02:04:00 amIt's not about the plug, it's about the feasibility and cost of the house wiring used to distribute low voltage @ high current to all of the sockets, which I covered in some detail in reply #117. You just don't seem to get it, or worse, just choose to ignore it as inconvenient to yourargumentgrumpy rant!Get off your silly UK plug grudge and start understanding the technical issues of what you are proposing (power distribution at USB levels rather than mains around the house).

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 07:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on October 16, 2023, 05:34:21 pmNot sure of UK availability (with your plug configuration maybe it's not feasible to fit everything necessary into an outlet?) but I just got this one to try. Haven't installed it yet. I have a number of the regular 2.4A USB-A outlet combos.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BQ6VDH68

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:20:48 pm
content: I'm disappointed that the engineers couldn't design a safe plug without making it hideously bulky and awkward.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:55:43 pm
content: American engineers did this years ago with the current NEMA 5-15, etc.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 01:06:40 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 17, 2023, 11:20:48 pmLet me guess. You've stepped on a UK plug recently, and you're still pissed off about it? That's their only real downside. They sit compactly against walls, They sit very securely in their socket. You can use a small rating fuse in them for things, like lamps, with a very thin cord. Every mains plug in the world has its downsides. The UK one is one of the better attempts.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 08:38:15 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 17, 2023, 11:20:48 pmIs that the best response you can come up with for somebody taking time to help you understand technical background of things?You just seem to be trolling by spouting the same silly thing over and over again when things get technical. What relvance does it have for you anyway? if your country flag is to be believed you're in France.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 11:56:26 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2023, 01:06:40 amIn 40 years I have stood on 1 or 2 UK plugs when not wearing shoes. It's not something you want to repeat but it's like stubbing your toe, you dont plan on doing it but it happens.I like my UK plug and happy to stay with it.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 12:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 18, 2023, 08:38:15 amIts not. A review of his posting history leads to a strong suspicion he's a north American francophile.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 03:02:24 pm
content: One popular series of connectors for civilized AC power distribution that has not been discussed in this rambling thread comprises the "IEC C13/C14" connectors that are now ubiquitous on computers and test equipment that have a line filter at the power input.These connectors are somewhat smaller in physical size than the NEMA connector of similar rating, and much smaller than the standard UK plug.Normally, the appliance/equipment manufacturer fits a male connector to his equipment, and supplies a power cord (typically rated for 6 A) with the mating female at one end, and the national standard male plug (UK, NEMA, etc.) at the other end, to plug into the customer's wall outlet.Before I retired, when we assembled systems for export that comprised commercial computers and monitors along with our own control and detector interface hardware, we used outlet strips on the console that had multiple female IEC connectors and one male connector. IEC C13 to C14 cords (readily available) were used to power the computers, and we then had to purchase only one specific cord to match the customer's country-standard outlet.I assume that the specific size and shape of these connectors were chosen so that they were not identical to any single country's standard, so nobody could gripe about using a foreign country's standard.My only problem with this was that use of that connector did not directly specify what voltage range (120 or 240 V) was intended, so some care in implementation was required.As I remember, the only commercial equipment we supplied that was not usable at both of those voltages were some computer printers, which had to be ordered for 120 or 240 V specifically.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 03:55:14 pm
content: QuoteIts got its place,but also its problems,mainly theres some that are rated for 10A and some for 6A,so very easy to overload a circuit,and then theres the c15/c16 leading to more confusion as to wot plugs into wot. Finally even decent brands are pita to wire,its almost impossible to get keep the earth wire longer than the live and neutral.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 04:53:10 pm
content: Yes, I've wondered about getting a server rack style C13/C14 power strip to squeeze lots of outlets into a small space in my lab, but I wouldn't be happy unless they [Edit: the strip wasn't] going through a 13A fused plug.The other problem would be cable projection out of the back compared to the low projection of a standard UK plug. I know you can get right angle ones but you can bet that stuff with molded on plugs would come with straight ones. The only place we have used them is the traditional kettle plug (before the advent of bases), hence they are often still called kettle leads over here. Those are the 10A 'hot condition' variant.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 05:12:32 pm
content: Quotekettles are supposed to use c15/16,with a slot/pin, to stop you using a normal c13

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 05:20:21 pm
content: Yes sorry, you're right.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 05:29:25 pm
content: Even so, the power capability of even the C13/C14 series is better than any of the flimsy ideas that our original poster has suggested.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 06:35:58 pm
content: 30 year ago the C13/C14 was getting really popular for power distribution around a bunch of low power devices, like computer bits and pieces. Now it seems much rarer. I wonder why it lost favour?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 06:37:53 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 18, 2023, 05:12:32 pmThey are supposed to use C15/C16, and in the past they did. Now most kettles don't have the key to stop you inserting a low current lead.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 07:44:43 pm
content: QuoteIts not the current capacity ,c13/14's also come in 10A flavours, but the temperature rating. And if c15/16 aint hot enough theres the 15a/c16a.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 06:33:59 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2023, 06:35:58 pmIm working in IT and datacenter.Yes, it has gotten a bit rarer, but not much though. It is more related to the fact that in the client area, desktop pcs have become rare. Laptop power supplies mostly use C5, since C13 is deemed too bulky and the power capacity of C13 is not needed.Networking gear and servers are going into the other direction. Often enough, high powered servers come with C19 plugs, since C13 reaches its limit. And some networking gear now takes C15 because that gear can apparently reach surprising temperatures.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:20:51 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 05, 2023, 02:11:39 pmThere is a difference between unsafe and being a flimsy POS.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 12:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on October 19, 2023, 06:33:59 amYep, there are still plenty of C13/C14 power strips with 19" rack mounting lugs at the ends. Its the free roaming ones that used to have PC, monitor, printer, modem, et all plugged into them that have almost disappeared. PC power supplies lost an output for the monitor for no obvious reason, requiring at least 2 sockets for a basic PC to function.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 12:57:39 pm
content: QuoteIt saves them £0.01 per psu? or maybe as power supply's got bigger the extra current for the monitor was to much for them to handle,especially in 110 land.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 01:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 19, 2023, 12:57:39 pmThe high output gamer supplies have limited space, but supplies in most office desktop machines have a low output supply with lots of space. When you look at the Dells and HPs of the world, selling desktops in volume to businesses, they have to bear the entire cost of what plugs into the wall. What monitor takes enough to add significant load to the lead into the supply? They dropped switching of power to the monitor when the supplies changed to soft switching, but the complete elimination of the power outlet came a bit later.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 03:56:19 pm
content: A better team of engineers could have designed a safer plug without making it a monstrosity.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 03:57:25 pm
content: Feel free to sell one of your design on the open market for retrofit.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 04:28:46 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 21, 2023, 03:56:19 pmEngineers have little to do with it. Regulations drive everything. The regulations in most countries have required that appliances be supplied with a plug for many decades. Some countries are pretty loose about which plug they should have, but they need a plug. For some quirky historic reason the UK is one of very few countries where a plug was not mandated. It costs money, so it was rarely fitted. So, the designers of the plug had to design something primarily for simple hand assembly by the average pleb. Only in the 80s did it start to become a competitive advantage to sell things with a fitted plug. If they had started from the position of designing something primarily for high volume moulded on applications, with a somewhat bulkier option for people needing to hand assemble a plug for one offs, I expect they would have designed something a little sleeker. However, this was not a part of their design mandate. Even a plug designed for moulded on applications would not have been that small. Unfused plugs are a lousy choice when so many appliance cords are not rated for anything like the breaker in the consumer unit. That fuse needs space that most mains plugs around the world dodge, by dodging safety issues. To a large extent we in the UK also dodge this issue, which is sad. How many UK plugs on thin cords for low consumption appliances are actually fitted with a 3A fuse?A modern moulded on British plug isn't that much different in size from a European or Chinese/Australian 3 pin plug. The greatest meaningful criticism I can see is they never allowed for a compact 2 pin plug which was compatible. On the other hand, most of the places that was an annoyance, like taking a mains powered razor on your travels, have become irrelevant due tot he growth of battery powered products.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 04:33:16 pm
content: Are there any other current examples where the plug was intended to hold the fuse?Obviously, this increases the physical size of the plug.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 04:37:42 pm
content: Quoteif they'd stuck with round pins the fuse could have gone in the live pin,as was done by the odd manufacturer ,but then again 15A unfused plugs are about the same size as the 13A

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 05:04:55 pm
content: Regulations didn't specify that the plug should be big, ugly and awkward. I'm sure several proposals were made by different parties. Unfortunately this one was accepted, probably under the belief that "all gain requires pain."

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 05:05:40 pm
content: Nonsense. Regulations specify the physical dimensions of the interface, from which other dimensions follow.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 05:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 21, 2023, 05:04:55 pmPerhaps it would save a lot of time and slurs if you could show an example of either what you think is a well-designed plug or your own design for a good plug. Doesn't need to be production-ready CAD - a sketch will be fine if it shows the idea clearly.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 06:38:49 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 21, 2023, 04:37:42 pmI think they purposefully moved from round pins in the old British plugs to rectangular ones for a more reliable high current connection.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 07:17:29 pm
content: Quoteceeforms and powerlocks seem to manage ok being round , more likley to avoid unfused plugs being used the newfangled ring,or to sell more plugs

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 08:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 21, 2023, 07:17:29 pmI used the old British plugs a lot in my childhood, and more recently in India. I'm pretty sure there is a contact quality reason for choosing a flat contact surface. The smaller 5A plug isn't too bad, but the bigger 15A can be iffy. Interestingly you can find those plugs with part plastic sheathed pins, in the style of the more recent 13A plugs. I've never seen them in use, though. Military connector designers love using round pins, but they go for elaborate contact arrangement you couldn't afford to put in cheap household goods.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 08:39:33 pm
content: Flat contact surfaces can be used with leaf springs, but it is hard to get a good contact all around a cylindrical pin.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 08:53:43 pm
content: QuoteTheatre is about the last bastion for them in the uk, used for for dimmer circuits.Reason being is theres only 1 fuse on the circuit instead of 3 or 4,and most of those plugs might be 30 foot in the air.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:05:36 pm
content: I have also seen them with photographic "hot lights" using halogen tungsten bulbs (including long narrow ones).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 21, 2023, 08:53:43 pmAh, that's where they are used. I've seen various pictures of them with shrouded pins, but I've never seen them used in India, which is now the main market for these plugs.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 10:21:28 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on October 21, 2023, 05:04:55 pmWhatISyour problem? The plug extends 20mm (some less) from the surface of the socket, with no additional cable projection - that makes it more compact in the dimension that matters compared to most other plugs in Europe and the US and more compact in general, when inserted, than any other 3 conductor plug of similar voltage and current rating that comes to mind.The BS1363 UK plug isn't over-designed, isn't excessively big of awkward. Please indicate and post an image of what you consider to be a smaller, less awkward and more attractive equivalently rated plug if you don't want to be treated as a troll.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2023, 12:42:27 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 21, 2023, 10:21:28 pmIt's called a difference of opinion. If you can't deal with that, it doesn't make it trolling.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2023, 09:57:14 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 08, 2023, 10:31:21 pmBut note that in practise the 125A Cee is actually good for about 80A when run with the usual 25mm square cable, they can and will overheat if you try for 125A on all phases for more then a very few minutes, and this is before you consider the possibility of triplen on the neutral (The lighting guys are finally getting better about that). Usually better to top out at 63A on Cee and then switch to powerlock connectors or lugs.