Programming Language EEVblog Section - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cvriv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 10:44:01 am
content: I thought it would be nice to have a a whole section here for programming languages. I'm actually quite surprised there's isn't already. Assembly, C/ C++, etc.

author: nugglix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 10:49:53 am
content: Might be that this is not a programming forum.There are already enough outlets for language wars...

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 11:21:44 am
content: https://cboard.cprogramming.com/

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 11:42:32 am
content: Quote from: cvriv on February 03, 2018, 10:44:01 amAs said above - this is not a programming forum.Any discussions here that involve programming will inevitably be in relation to their association with a piece of electronic equipment. The focus is on the operation of the equipment, not the programmingper se.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 07:12:56 pm
content: It would be indeed interesting, with a quirk. Ban all mentions of C or discussion of C and let see what it ends look a like. Would be interesting.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 07:19:54 pm
content: There is no need unless it is related to an electronics project. There are plenty of forums out there to cover programming topics, stackoverflow being one of the most popular:https://stackoverflow.com/

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 02:24:22 am
content: Quote from: nugglix on February 03, 2018, 10:49:53 amIndeed, but it would be quite nice to have a section devoted to language wars and a strictly, and I meanstrictly, enforced rule that such wars may only take place there. Then we've got a ghetto for them and can get on with something productive outside of it.If we can also have a similar little corner for all the fools who "go off on one" the second someone mentions Apple, I, for one, would be grateful.Code wars are, to an extent, inevitable here because embedded programming is a legitimate topic of conversation and sometimes there actuallyisa more appropriate programming language or algorithm for some particular application. The problem is that as soon as someone makes a reasoned, sensible suggestion, someone else who believes that C++*, Pascal, assembler or whatever is the work of the devil feels, like so may other adherents of one religion or another, that it is their job to convert the heathen to the ways of righteousness with no regard as to whether it's the time or the place for that kind of discussion. Save that kind of thing for yourChurch of SatanC++ User's Group meeting.*OK, it is the work of the Devil, but that's besides the point.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 02:37:58 am
content: If it's hardware programming, you can just post in the Microcontrollers & FPGAs section.

author: chriswebb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 08:03:01 pm
content: First of all, there can be software written that applies to electronics that doesn't have anything to do with FPGAS or microcontrollers.Second of all, saying "this is electronics forum" is purely dogmatic and a garbage argument. Give a real reason you don't like the idea, don't fall back on dogma. It's OK if you don't like programming. But that doesn't mean that there doesn't exist a niche that can be filled with a programming subforum.Third of all, if you don't want the subforum because you dont like it, you don't have to visit it.Fourth of all, I really don't respect attempts of people to drive people to other communities, especially coming from big post counts.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 08:40:27 pm
content: EEVblog -ElectronicEngineeringVideo blogThere could also be:CSVblog - Computer Science Video blogPLVblog - Programming Languages Video blogSomebody just needs to start them up!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 10:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: chriswebb on February 04, 2018, 08:03:01 pmI never would have thought......QuoteIs it dogmatic to try and maintain a focus?Perhaps we should broaden our outlook, then.... There has been interest in a machining sub forum - since manufacture of cases and mechanical components is an associated activity with electronics. Then we can have a materials and metallurgical sub-forum to discuss all the properties of the materials used and the good and the bad of them. It's only logical we extend this to resources and mining - which will lead us into discussions on renewability and the environment ... then on to politics ... and Godwin's Law.QuoteThere IS a niche - in my opinion - and I have already expressed that. My personal feeling is that programming discussions on the EEVblog are appropriate when that programming is associated with the function of electronics. It doesn't matter if someone writes in FORTRAN or Assembler - if the code is needed for a piece of electronics to work, then let there be discussion about how to help the developer get it working properly. There is no intrinsic reason to turn the discussion into a battle of platform (the aforementioned "code wars") unless there is some platform dependent issue - such as high speed timing.Such discussion would generally be part of a particular project. That is valid, IMHO - and such discussion already exists.QuoteThat's anIF. Personally, I wouldn't mind it at all - but that doesn't mean I feel it is appropriate to have one here.Quote"Drive"? A rather emotional interpretation, IMO. What I saw was the offering of some alternatives for people that were looking for such discussion.QuoteThis shows how desperate you feel your argument is ... that you feel the need to "cut down" those who have put in significantly more to this forum than you - and, please, feel free to exclude me (Seriously. There are others who have contributed WAY more than I.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 11:07:12 pm
content: I agree with others that there are plenty of dedicated forums out there for your particular language.A "generic" programming section wouldn't work well as it could be any language. You can't beat language specific forums.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 11:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: chriswebb on February 04, 2018, 08:03:01 pmI was just about to talk about the "Show Unread Posts" feature that most peopel use and how that can get polluted with posts, but I just remembered there is a "Ignore Boards" feature you can set in your profile that prevent those posts showing in that list if you don't like that topic (I've never used that). So technically nothing preventing a Programming section of the forum.Maybe a poll?QuoteIf that's the best place, why not direct people there?Unlike some other forum that are protective of their own enclosed community, it's encouraged here to point people to and link to other forums.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 11:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on February 03, 2018, 10:44:01 amDiscussing programming languages with people passionate about electronics will be about as productive as discussing electronics with people who are passionate about programming languages.Be careful what you wish for!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 11:19:55 pm
content: The problem with a programming section is that I think it's really only useful if you have sub-section for all the languages. Just like the sections for PCB programs for example.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 11:34:14 pm
content: c or go home REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEStupidity aside, I agree that anything programming related should belong with what you are programming. We have a vintage computing section I have posted some of my Turbo C programming, that I think is very neat. unfortunately I'm about the only one.Anyways, a place where people can screech about how to talk to computers already exists. It's called Reddit.

author: nugglix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 07:32:47 am
content: And the OP has never been seen again in this thread.So I think we're done.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 04:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: Vtile on February 03, 2018, 07:12:56 pmNo worries, I'll just revert to writing everything in Foxpro.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 05:54:53 pm
content: No worries, I speak FoxProEverywhere else that covers programming seems to have degenerated into nonstop Powershell these days.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 06:48:16 pm
content: time to work in cryptic IBM PC & DOS BIOS calls and outdated 8086 assembly just so I can really confuse everybody.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 12:38:55 am
content: I would be fine with an Assembly language only section where grey beards can complain about those new fangeld compilers and the kids that use them. GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!hahahahaha. Seriously though. There are lots of other good forums for that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 12:53:04 am
content: The thing with adding new sections is that I look to see how much existing talk there is on that topic so those topics can be moved over to the new section to "seed" it with content.Can't say I've seen much talk about just programming on here?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 05:13:38 pm
content: What bit there is seems to be hitting the Vintage Computing section, unless it's a Microcontroller issue in which case it gets posted in that section. I don't see a need for a dedicated section for programming.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 05:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on February 05, 2018, 05:54:53 pmPerfect!Actually, I do end up doing quite a bit with Powershell these days.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 10:30:38 pm
content: Can we include COBOL? Can we?Clearly FORTRAN is a given for the scientific folks but there are banks still using COBOL.It is staggering how much money is still handled by COBOL including 95% of ATM transactions in the US.https://thenextweb.com/finance/2017/04/10/ancient-programming-language-cobol-can-make-you-bank-literally/I guess RPG is still running as well. I played with that back around '70.PL/I anybody? I used that to write an 8080 assembler in grad school '75-'76. I still have the Digital Research incantation running on CP/M. Not that I have used it in the last 30 years... I liked the structure of the language.We simply must include application specific languages like MATLAB and Maxima. I don't have anything better to do than write FORTRAN, MATLAB and Maxima examples for my grandson's Calculus course.Or just leave this to the other sites...

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 11:22:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 06, 2018, 12:53:04 amIt is a bit of a chicken and the egg situation though? If there is no place to talk about it, nobody will talk about it, so then if nobody talks about it, it never gets made.I can base a recommendation, as with many things, in one of two ways. I can be subjective, and say because it matches my interests, I would be down for it, or I can be objective and say there are other places for that.There is also other aspects. There are of course other places for vintage/legacy computing, but the section is actually doing fairly well, with now almost daily activity, and some interesting, unique topics. I don't hate the idea, as a C programmer, I quite like the idea of an EE sided (or even just general) programming section for people to ask for help and show off projects. It could be a neat sub-section of Vintage Computing to have vintage programming, and if anything is to be done, I think that would be the best idea to come out of it.I do think that for vintage programming, it should be something like everything before C++ where I think modern programming begins (what with all them objects, and the orientation thusly), but the EEVBlog has never been a place to stickle (if that's a word), and I think just having a section where people can talk about older computers and the programming therein could be sweet to see.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 12:33:41 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 06, 2018, 10:30:38 pmI remember the first time I had to debug a PL/1 crash from a hex dump. This wasn't a big deal at the time, since I started my programming career as an application assembler programmer - but the PL/1 compiler liked doing fun things with base registers...I think programming discussions on EEVblog (which do exist) tend to be more project oriented, rather than language oriented. This would make setting up a programming only section somewhat pointless, I would have thought.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 12:41:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 07, 2018, 12:17:04 amIt's not always about who came first, it's often who came and made it popular. That's why we say Edison was an inventor, instead of a slightly immoral opportunist.Quote from: Brumby on February 07, 2018, 12:33:41 amI don't disagree, as programming within the realm of EE normally is the gravy for the bird instead of the stuffing, but there are nevertheless people here at least semi-interested in such approach.I know for a fact, if there was an ANSI/Turbo C friendly part of the EEVBlog (of which Stack Overflow is neither, I always get people complaining I am using obsolete tools, goddammit I can be stupid if I want to!!!) I would definitely love to hang around there. I do think that a modern section might be a bit too common, but I think something more legacy oriented might be cool and definitely more unique.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 12:48:50 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 06, 2018, 10:30:38 pmI always knew that as PL/1 (with a one and not an 'i') - But a "quick wikipedia moment" fixed thatIt truly is PL/I (with a Roman numeral "I"), and pronounced as P L One.No wonder I am confused.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 01:59:41 am
content: I'll give you vintage programming: I built an FPGA emulation of the 1965 vintage IBM 1130 and it runs all of the IBM software unchanged. As a result, I have FORTRAN (not quite ver. 4) and I use it from time to time. I don't have APL RPG or COBOL but they are available out there somewhere. It also has a Macro Assembler.My machine also has a replacement for the 1627 Drum Plotter in a TCP connection to a LaserJet. I now have exactly the setup I started with back in '70. I even have the IBM Electronic Circuit Analysis Program (ECAP), a predecessor to all things SPICE. It was an enormous help in EE school. Bode' Plots were a lot easier on a computer than doing them by hand.Not one of the oldest computers but the first to lease for less than $1000/month.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1130The factory machine ran at around 400 kHz, mine runs at 50 MHz and uses fewer cycles per instruction. Among other things, I'm not using write-after-read core memory. With 32k words, I have less need for overlays. In fact, none of the programs I have written come even close to using up memory. OTOH, my applications are fairly simple and don't use gobs of RAM for variables.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 02:11:01 am
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on February 07, 2018, 12:48:50 amA lot of people rejoice at the fact that there is no PL/II. I don't know what to think of the language. It certainly doesn't have a lot of happy users. Most people tend to throw rocks at it but it was my first exposure to a structured language. My advisor said my 8080 Assembler code looked a lot like FORTRAN... I didn't spend nearly enough time with the language.The F version compiler ran on a small machine and used nearly 100 phases (essentially passes). No wonder my job took forever on a 360-45 (a really small machine). The 1130 FORTRAN compiler takes only 27 phases.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/II have the original books for the Algol language implementation and they include full source. I think we need an Algol section. I would really like to use the language. Shear elegance! Almost as nice as PASCAL.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 02:19:39 am
content: Ugh, I used the Intel variant PL/M for a while many moons ago on my first real job out of school. Hated every moment of it. Clumsy language. As soon as I could I returned to C programming and didn't look back.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 02:47:09 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 07, 2018, 01:59:41 amThat's pretty damn cool!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 03:06:43 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on February 07, 2018, 02:19:39 amIn the very early days, PL/M was the only alternative to assembler. I was never able to get PL/M as a hobbyist but now the FORTRAN source is available. BDS C was a great upgrade ('79) and, for some applications, Microsoft FORTRAN-80 was useful. I think the PL/I package was a niche deal; I didn't see a lot of articles on how to use it.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 05:22:21 am
content: Little squirt of the EEBlog forums here, but I can only imagine how mind blowing C was when it came out. I have no idea what extent it had outside of Bell Labs, but at least for those in the Unix world, it must have been great to have a language that is still considered easy to program for today.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 05:50:55 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on February 06, 2018, 11:22:34 pmKind of. But considering that programmers is relatively on-topic for this forum (and hence you are allowed to post about programming topics), but very few people have might indicate that it's not a topic people are interested in here?QuoteBecause it already had quite an active subset of users on the forum already talking about it. But I don't really see the same for software? (I could be wrong, normally such topics would not interest me)

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 05:59:15 am
content: I guess so. Maybe it's a call for interested parties to start posting a bit.Talk about vintage programming has gone on to some extent in the vintage computing section, though. Perhaps not enough to warrant a new section.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 06:36:41 am
content: I actually have to disagree. C, at least for me, is incredibly fun and easy to program in compared to OOP languages. It could just be me, that's often the case, I am weird in the way I do things, but I have found that C works great as a general purpose language. It's been expanded greatly with subsequent additions like C11. The memory model limitations and things of that nature really don't exist to the same extent they do in things like ANSI/Turbo C. I can write a full 64-bit program, use over 4GB of memory per task, and library support for the language is very good.I come from a background in Java, previously. It's a language that many people agree has written the book in how not to do things. It's clunky variable control, lack of lower level features (i mean it's through a virtual machine) and overall strangeness has made it hated by many, and also loved by many.As it stands now, C is the second most popular language by web searches (forgot who did that study, if needed I can provide the name) and it sees no chance of dying off any time soon. I for one will use it. It's current blend of modern and legacy features makes it great for me to learn as a multitool language. The other reason why C won't be going any time soon is that it's literally everywhere. Probably one of the first things done on a brand new processor ISA is to write a C compiler. With just some basic knowledge, I have the foundation on which to write applications for every single platform made since the 1970's. There is support for Z80, 6502, 68k, x86, DEC Alpha, MIPS, SPARC, Power, ARM, most, if not all of the microcontrollers currently on the market, and the list can go on. If it has the ISA needed to implement it, it probably has C.This makes it my friend. I can program it like a modern language using modern libraries like SDL2, but using the same base knowledge, I have been able to write DOS programs that run on any machine capable enough to run it.There are different options. C++ has a lot of these aspects, and has more general support, so it may be an avenue I look into some time in the future. Personally I dislike C#, as it's a language locked down into buying into Microsoft products, which I hate.Anyways, it's what you like. This is by no means a completely objective race. C is very well loved by a lot of people, and so are more modern options. To die is to be forgotten, and C is in no danger of that, unlike languages like COBOL.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 07:02:35 am
content: I'd probably be active in a programming section. Though for all of us it would probably be a lot of:TwoOfFive: you really need to read up on c#. What you say is the opposite of realitygetting set up on Linux takes 30 seconds, on top of open source projects maintained by Microsoft.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 07:06:26 am
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on February 07, 2018, 07:02:35 am>Maintained by Microsoft.The issue is that it's a standard created by Microsoft, and mostly useful when you buy into Microsoft products. I am aware it's available for other platforms, and I am honestly not interested. Getting set up with C on Unix/Linux has probably already been done, but if not just needs gcc, gdb, and make for the most part.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 12:53:26 pm
content: I think we get a hint of what the Programming Language section would contain - pointless language wars.C is like an old dog which should be taken round the back and shot dead. It really is terrible. C# is a really nice and powerful language, dismissing it because it originated with Microsoft is plain stupid.It seems there is a new programming language every year, but none of them really make a fundamental difference to the problem of providing solutions to real world problems. It seem to be more flavor of the month.Everyone has their favourite languages, usually based on irrational preferences. There is zero point in trying to persuade other people your irrational choice is the "best" language. That is one thing that has not changed since programming started.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 12:54:55 pm
content: I think is a good idea. I have and am developing several peripheral libraries for Arduino compatible with several architectures (avr, sam, sam32, esp8266 and stm32). They could fit in microcontrollers forum but as they are Arduino sublanguage specific and tied to that peripherals I think it.may not fit right there. But I could add a thread in Programming - Arduino subforum.It's an example but many others would be more.interesting.Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 01:24:40 pm
content: Most arguments about languages really are arguments about the languages suitability for the use cases that the debaters care about. As such, in this forum a lot of the discussion would be about bit banging and signal processing. And might make it worthwhile since what I see in other venues are discussions about formal compiler correctness, user interface design, data base design and other things which are all good and useful things, but generally not the meat and potatoes of this group.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 02:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: cvriv on February 03, 2018, 10:44:01 amI think it would be better to add a general section "Software development".It would make sense since many EEs and others working with HW also do a lot of SW development.In such a section you can put your language wars or discussions on best SW development practices for embedded firmware etc..

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 03:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 07, 2018, 12:53:26 pmI have a different opinion on what I consider powerful. C is a language with implementations in every platform, available by multiple companies, and can be compiled directly to machine code sans-dependencies.C# is a compiled language, but will for the most part be bound to .NET. If you are fine with that, then you should use C#. What I say is always my opinion based on the objective truth. If you want me to say good things about C#, it has a lot of interesting things offered by it's Microsoft implementations. It has support for very easy to use libraries like ASP.NET and Unity. The IDE, while VERY bulky for the main one, is also feature rich, and a cut down version is available.Languages have big advantages, and big downsides, and they change depending on who you are and where you come from. The old nature of C doesn't hurt me or affect me. As I said, coming from Java which is the most popular programming language in the world right now, C is easier for me to program, available on more platforms, and simpler to set up. These are things that I find useful, and others may not. It's an opinion I share, and not one I demand others take to heart.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 03:57:58 pm
content: Yup! Unending language wars!Such a forum here on EEVblog is not necessary.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 04:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 07, 2018, 03:57:58 pmThe point is seen. The thing is, the EEVBlog is actually normally pretty civil with debates. People here go nuts sometimes, but even then nobody is harassed.It's honestly a case of I think anything programming related does belong in what context it is appropriate in. If it's old programming, it should probably just be put into vintage computing.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 04:22:24 pm
content: I come to this forum to get away from programming topics.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 11:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 07, 2018, 03:57:58 pmThen, why not aggregate them in a subforum and give you the ability to ignore them?Quote from: NivagSwerdna on February 07, 2018, 04:22:24 pmEnviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 11:10:46 pm
content: There's an argument for both sides. There's always the case of give the people who want it what they like, for the people who disagree to leave alone.I'll use it if it's included, if it's not, I won't cry over it.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2018, 04:25:56 am
content: Electronics and programming go hand in hand for a lot of people. That said, I recall getting help just fine in the microcontroller forum. It does seem more appropriate than some other sections here such as “VintageComputing”. Not that I take issue with that.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2018, 02:52:11 pm
content: There is "Microcontrollers & FPGAs" which... "If it's about Microcontroller hardware or *software*, or ....So for Embedded Programming it is already covered.And has been mentioned the Vintage section seems to be the place for Nostalgia on Turbo C... but on the other hand... creating another section wouldn't harm any kittens/fairies etc.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2018, 03:13:58 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on February 08, 2018, 02:52:11 pmActually, my cat is vehemently opposed to the idea of an EEVBlog programming section. I'm not, I like it, but I asked him, and he decided that it was a bad idea.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2018, 10:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on February 08, 2018, 02:52:11 pmIt could be renamed appending "hardware".It's clear many EE hate programming, even if it's inherent to digital EE, so moving it in its own section would be easier to ignore.Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk