Professional ITIC USB 2.0 LS/FS/HS Protocol Analyzer Kickstarter Project - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 06:24:50 am
content: Hi fellow EEs!This is my first post but I have been watching Dave's videos for a long time.I'm a professional EE with some 20+ years of experience. I have during the last 9 years developed a line of USB and PCI Express Protocol Analyzers.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 06:40:44 am
content: I know a lot of things have changed in Windows 8, but maybe you should think about adding that support?Plus what does yours do thanhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/openvizsla-still/can't do and it's already shipping?

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 07:01:45 am
content: The existing 1480A and 2500A USB/PCIe Analyzers do support Windows 8. There's nothing new in Windows 8 over Windows 7 on the operating system level except for a bunch of fluff in the GUI for new pad-type computers. Existing USB drivers will work and existing .NET applications will run unchanged.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 07:26:04 am
content: By a lot of things changing I meant more lambdas and more asynchronous APIs for networking on the client side of programming. But I haven't done any device drivers lately so it might be the same in that aspect.Maybe you should add Windows 8 support to your description if you support it.But $250 of the link I offered that is shipping now vs $200 as an upgrade to existing hardware or $600 for the hardware of your (older) existing product, and $800 for the new one might be too steep, specially since you don't have a cute dog that chews through USB data

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 am
content: I don't want to bash the Openviszla project but you have to compare apples with apples.Openviszla is a bare hobby board with some sample code. It can not be used for actual lab work unless the user puts in a huge amount of work and designs the needed FPGA HDL and PC software And, of course, that's the whole point of Openviszla. It is an experiment board for engineers to learn about USB. As an out-of-the-box usable test instruments in the lab - not so much.On their Kickstarter page, the PHY speed is hardcoded so it can not track the device connection, device and host chirp sequence nor auto-configure the PHY for the correct speed. You would need to research and implement around 100 complex states to properly track all scenarios the PHY will need to be configured in.As far as Openviszla software goes, all i have seen are essentially debug print statements of the raw packet data. That is far from the higher-level protocol items such as packet decoding, transaction parsing, descriptor decoding and all the other analysis features that are included in an actual full-blownProtocol Analyzerdesign.And, yes, i understand that the community may want to use the Openviszla board to create a more advanced, usable protocol analyzer solution some time in the future. Sort of like Linux. Time will tell if that will happen.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 08:10:59 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 amMaybe it didn't change that much for USB other than they now have overlapped support for async programming, but their network API is way different and winINet is a thing of the past (finally!!!).Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 amOk, I won't worry about price, but how it's your product better than OpenVizsla? (other than the cute dog chewing the USB cable?), as a hobbyist I think $600 it's quite a bit and I didn't see any videos of the USB protocol analyzer demos or the PCI Express for that matter, I saw the tutorials but no API or anything like that for custom USB (or PCI express) hardware.I did see you offer some Windows XP drivers SP2. But nothing since then. I do hope they are still compatible.But how about live demos of the USB analyzer analyzing through an unknown device?

author: macgyver0815
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 08:38:21 am
content: Well the PCIe Product looks like very good hw quality:http://www.internationaltestinstruments.com/images/thumbs/0000200.jpgAltera Arria II GX is a good mid range part.OpenViszla can't match that.But Cyclone II for the USB product - is a bit outdated, isn't it?Yeah FPGA world is progessing slowly (and never touch a running system), I know, but this part is no longer supported since Quartus 13.1 as far as I know...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 08:49:43 am
content: One comment is that there is way, way too much detail on that KS page for most people to digest- I think this should be severely condensed, with links to more detailed info elsewhere.You say that one reason for going to KS is to get word of mouth. A significant target market will be hackers and reverse engineers, so you should probably highlight the device's capabilities for reverse-engineering existing products. The current text seems to assume that people will already know why they need a USB analyser - I think you should probably add some stuff to explain what it can do at a higher level rather than diving into esoteric details like PHY states etc.You absolutely must have an open interface or plug-in architecture that allows people to interface to it to add their own triggering/logging/decoding functionality.You should also probably say why you aren't supporting USB3 as people will ask about that and comment that it's outated for not supporting it.If you can incorporate some upgrade path to USB3 (e.g. connector for new PHY etc.) that would be even better

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 07:27:06 pm
content: Thanks for the feedback.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 08:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:27:06 pmYes, you shouldn't have to explain what an analyzer is, but some of your potential market will be software-oriented people who just want to get at the data at a fairly high level, and a description that makes it clear this can be done without needing to understand the lowest-level goings on may be helpful to this market.QuoteMaybe, but structure is important as well. Remember some of your potential market are more software than hardware oriented.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 15, 2014, 08:49:43 amYes! Thank you for reminding me. One customer request over the years has been some form of plug-in system that allows them to decode custom device classes automatically. Currently, the 1480A USB Protocol Analyzer only decodes the USB 2.0 base protocols, not add-on device classes later described in the various follow-on specs. The reason for this is that it is very time-consuming and complex. I actually, may have to go to Kickstarter for a separate campaign just for the class-decoding capability since lots of potential classes and decoders are needed.I'd strongly suggest that you make sure there issomeway to interface to it from day one - people digging into this stuff will be more than happy to write their own decoders etc. if there is provision in there to do so. You may well get people contributing their own decoders, which has to be a win-win situation.QuoteI know that, you know that, but the software person interested in reverse-engineering some new hardware may not. You WILL get people asking about USB3, so some explananation as to why they don't need it would probably be useful.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2014, 09:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: macgyver0815 on August 15, 2014, 08:38:21 amEverything is carefully planned to fit, including 10 layer board checked with Hyperlynx with regards to power and signal integrity. The board area is so small so some optimization was required to ensure proper power plane impedance for all FPGA device pins. The DDR2 SODIMM also consumes a fair amount of power (1.8V/3A) which required some extra layout work with regards to PI.

author: borg
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 10:15:58 pm
content: Hello John_ITIC,Could you explain the advantage of your external USB protocol analyzer compared to using Wireshark?I have been using Wireshark a lot to debug/reverse engineer USB protocols. I have even written my own Wireshark dissector for a specific custom-class protocol.I guess my question is: What can an external USB protocol analyzer capture that the PC itself can't capture? Broken packets, wrong timings, ...? All of the example seem to be of generally working USB communication, which i can capture with the PC itself.Thanks!

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 05:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: borg on August 17, 2014, 10:15:58 pmIf a device refuses to enumerate, a hardware analyzer is invaluable.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 12:43:07 am
content: Quote from: borg on August 17, 2014, 10:15:58 pmThere are many, so called, "software USB protocol analyzers", none of which are actually analyzing the USB protocol at all! For example, on a Windows platform, software can install "filter drivers" that intercept "messages" going to and from a USB device's device Driver. On Windows, these messages are called URBs (USB Request Blocks). Essentially, a Filter Driver will install itself "above" a particular class of host device drivers (such as over a target device's custom windows driver) and will then intercept all data buffers that are exchanged between the operating system and the target device's device driver. However, these exchanged messages (URBs) are not the same as the USB Protocol! In fact, the exchanged URBs look nothing like the USB protocol at all! Some of the data intercepted (such as descriptors and raw IN and OUT transaction data) is able to be captured correctly by software-only "snoopers" though.Actual USB traffic takes place between a USB hardware chip (called the Host Controller) and a target device. The Host Controller schedules traffic to and from the target devices that are attached to the host controller. This traffic scheduling is done by the host controller driver (not be confused by a USB device's driver, which is layered "above" the host controller driver in the operating system) in a master / slave relationship.A hardware protocol analyzer will capture the actual packets, bus events and much more information as it is actually occurring on the bus under test. For instance, it shows you timing of protocol information, causes of communications errors, allows you to debug checksum and other issues on the bus.In short, a hardware protocol analyzer will allow you to debug low-level target device firmware and host controller driver issues that prevent the communication from working properly. Also, only a hardware protocol analyzer can tell you whether the efficiency of the communication is optimal. Like you state, if the communication is working and you are only interested in the actual data being exchanged, a software analyzer will do the job.For examples of what a USB protocol analyzer can do, take a look at this tutorial, we wrote years ago:http://www.internationaltestinstruments.com/topic/11-1480a-usb-protocol-analyzer-software-tutorial.aspxAlso, download the ITIC 1480A USB Protocol analyzer software. It includes sample captures that you can load and examine to learn more about what the actual USB protocol looks like on the wire:http://www.internationaltestinstruments.com/topic/6-1480a-usb-protocol-analyzer-software-downloads.aspxThanks,/John.

author: techydude
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 03:38:02 am
content: let me start by saying I'd love to see you and your products succeed. ITIC came up in my googling when i was looking for a h/w USB analyser a few months back, and I almost sprang for the 1480A, but a cheap 2nd-hand Ellisys USB Explorer 200 came up on eBay (a rare event) so I took the plunge there, as my needs are still fairly loosely defined (ask me again in a month! lol). I know it's no consolation now, but you were about to be my 1st choice.having said all that, I think your presentation & 'marketing' for this KS campaign is a train wreck about to happen.i agree with MikesElectricStuff's feedback 100%i strongly urge you to simplify the first screen-full of text, and carefully consider who your target market is, and what amount of time they're going to have to dedicate to reading that first page of your KS page (not much - do NOT make the mistake of thinking they all think & behave like you! THEY ARE NOT YOU, otherwise they'd already have one, or already know they don't need one). you've really got to get to the point quickly and cover all the main bases in as few words as possible, as the hook. then & only then if someone's hooked will they take the time to read more.same goes for the video. you've spent 2 minutes going on about *you* first, then the product, and even then the product description is worded in highly relative terms (comparison to the 1480A & 2500A) - that reassurance/low-risk stuff can be mentioned only very briefly near the end, and elaborated in the text. I think you need to completely re-do the video, and ideally call upon the help of a more visually-oriented friend who can do some basic video production on it. SHOW US THE PRODUCT! show us it in your hands, on your bench, connected up to something, show us the software, show us what it can DO, show us what it can do that software-only tools can't, and do it quickly - short n sharp! turn it around - make it almost all about the product & what it can do for the neophyte, the software person, the person who's been struggling with software-only tools. you've come at this from *your* perspective, instead of the perspective of the people you're trying to attract - that won't work. sell the product, not the reason why you're here (if you must do that, then leave it WAY down in the text).i also think an "open interface or plug-in architecture that allows people to interface to it to add their own triggering/logging/decoding functionality" is critical, and that includes making the place for that community to come together to learn about how to use this product & contribute & collaborate. you don't have to give away the keys to the kingdom by FOSSing the whole thing, just give people the environment/place & material (& API) they need to do what they need to do. then & only then can magic happen.but my bigger concern is your marketing and economics. unfortunately i don't have any real advice here, just 'concerns'your KS page points out how the 'big guys' have already slashed their prices, and slashed them again, basically in an attempt to kill you. your KS page basically says their tactic is working. and that sux, it's the story of ten thousand midnight engineering projects that actually achieve the almost-impossible but can't fly because of... (in your case, a very limited sized market who need a h/w USB analyser, & only 1 person developing it). the big guys have a shelf full of higher end products that they're still asking tens of thousands of US$ for, which is the fat they get to afford to sell their low-end stuff so cheaply to kill you & still keep their business running & developing new products.can they slash their prices again & totally frak up your 'last ditch' economics? ...& leave your backers AND your existing/older customers with a dead end product when ITIC goes under? my 'gut feeling' estimate is that a 1-off injection of funds, and as you say, after taxes/etc just ~$60k, isn't going to be enough to see you through, unless you do a series of KS campaigns to do incremental development, but then you face backer fatigue, and a precarious existence, and pissed off customers waiting for "that decoder I needed 6 months ago" but who didn't have the means with which to do it himself.I think you need more help than just more customers via KS. getting the buy-in of backers is only part of it (as well as the PR during the campaign from places like this & all the hobbyist/maker/tech-media/EE sites, & even that is a massive undertaking - once you push the go button on your KS, you need to be flogging this thing with your last breath every day in every PR channel available, & you need to have all that PR material ready before you start. have you been to any of KS's workshops for prospective campaign runners?).but most of all i think you need 'community' to help with the software (plug-ins), because if one thing is crystal clear now in this FOSSy world, if you let your backers/customer take part in the development (the decoder plug-ins etc), then that mushrooms - when the next Joe comes along who needs something similar, he makes some mods to something someone else has already done, he's happy & tells his friends & blogs about it, & his work is now up there for the next person to stand upon. this FOSS philosophy is foreign to your (and my) generation's way of thinking. embrace the power of community, give them what they need to do what they need to do, and they will embrace you & be your greatest advocates.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 06:41:35 am
content: Quote from: techydude on August 19, 2014, 03:38:02 amThanks! Perhaps you would like to plunk down some cash on an advanced 1480B USB Protocol Analyzer...?If ITIC had had a unit with 256 MB trace RAM and all the other advanced features described in this KS campaign, would you still have chosen the Ellisys? The 1480B will be very good value for the money.Quote from: techydude on August 19, 2014, 03:38:02 amI thank you for your feedback, and I can't claim to understand the minds of most people pledging on projects on Kickstarter, but I'm not sure this KS campaign can be "hyped" into success. The idea with the current KS description would be that engineers (yes, like me) would recognize that this project is vastly different from most other "amateur" projects out there and that they would identify with my situation.Engineers would pay attention as soon as they see the words "USB Protocol Analyzer" and they would not need to be shielded from the dense information. We engineers (at least the EEs) live with dense information all day long and we don't trust hyped projects. We want the facts and the logical reasons for making a decision. We don't act on impulse.Quote from: techydude on August 19, 2014, 03:38:02 amAgreed. That can be accomplished. But I'm not sure the paying engineer would want to fiddle around with his/her own development too much. It is a professional tool, so I assume will be used on professional projects, that have deadlines. Time is money so I suspect as much in-the-box features as possible that will be included is more important than do-it-yourself plug-ins.Having that said, a custom decoding plug-in would be useful for the non-standard decoding (like standard class decoders) since makes the unit slightly more extensible.Quote from: techydude on August 19, 2014, 03:38:02 amI agree. The plug-ins for decoding should be able to be community-driven and I will add it to the KS campaign description.Regarding Open Source; we have thought about this but we can't see any Cashflow coming out of it. There is, of course, a limited amount of work that can be put into a project before it needs to pay a return. So far no one is making any money on open source except for support, consulting and advertising. Even Mr. EEVBlog himself, makes money on advertising from his videos. There has to be a financial upside somewhere.Finally, I thank you for your feedback. Like religion, different people will kill for their own faith in what is the right thing to do. My belief is that this KS campaign would appeal to engineers that identify with our situation and therefore would want to help. Therefore, we are unlikely to make major changes to the current campaign.If the current KS campaign flops, we may instead make another USB 3.0 Protocol analyzer campaign!

author: macgyver0815
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 08:25:22 am
content: Well - sorry but I have seen several campaigns like that flopping.Waaay too high goal (for such a niche product at such high unit prices), not showing the product in the video, basically just talking.Too much text (at least highlight some key facts and put the important stuff right on the top).Don't be fooled by the (very bad) OpenViszla campaign - this was 2010 - very different times (compare the Internet in the 90ies to today), it was much easier back thenNow there are way way more campaigns on KS. Today it is much harder to get any attention at all.Even campaigns such as HemaImager - a product that almost anyone could need (not only engineers working in a very specific niche area) - is struggling to reach its goal and they do put a lot of time and effort into it.

author: techydude
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 09:05:34 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 19, 2014, 06:41:35 amYou're cutting yourself off from a significant part of the market - of both buyers & developers - who are NOT EEs, who have the need for the product, but don't quite know it yet: nephytes new to USB connectivity, serious makers, "hackers", EE students - people who may not know what they don't know (their need for a h/w-based USB analyser), or simply FOSS devs looking for a bit of fun with USB. Don't forget, your campaign remains online indefinitely, which is a valuable funnel to you/your website, google pagerank & all that.In this context, it's not unsubstantiated "hype", it's about getting the attention of people who aren't like you (& me), old-school EEs. If you can't 'hook' someone within the first 20 seconds of reading the page, or the first 30 or so seconds of the video, you risk losing them completely, even if they are candidates for the product.You are limiting yourself to engineers like you in your place in life & career. Isn't the limitation of that calm, demure approach to self-marketing why you're trying to Kickstart the 1480B now? I'm urging you to look beyond just that market. Some of those makers/hackers/students grow up in just a few short years to be the kind of EEs you're hoping to attract. some of them don't need to be qualified EEs. & right now some of them have the time & willingness to help you develop the product (decoder plug-ins etc).Quote from: John_ITIC on August 19, 2014, 06:41:35 amThen you're seriously compromising the success of your campaign before it's even begun, by not aiming at the kinds of people who 'invest' in KS projects in all the various sites & media they use - a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure.I didn't say you have to dedicate every waking hour for a month or two (although that's ideal), but you can't just click Submit on the KS form, sit back, post a few "Please help me! Please Share my KS Campaign, here's the link!" requests in places like here, and hope for the best. There are plenty of sites/blogs/etc to advise you here on crowdfunding marketing tactics. You can look down your nose at marketing all you like, but just remember some history of why superior products have failed / inferior products have wonAs for the video, you *must* show, not just tell. In fact it's required by KS's T&C anyway, but that's beside my point.Quote from: techydude on August 19, 2014, 03:38:02 amI hope that works for you

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 12:33:39 pm
content: ..and you should probably have some additional "tip jar" rewards between $1 and $99

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 04:52:05 pm
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 19, 2014, 06:41:35 amI've had the original Ellisys Tracker 110 for ages, and for Full Speed USB it's fine. But I'm starting to work on a High Speed design, so I obviously need a new analyzer.That analyzer needs to have class decoding; in my case I need the USB Audio Class 2.0 decoding. It seems to me that the decoding could be done in the host software. $795 is a great price for that. I'd kick in if you had the decoding.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 10:28:54 pm
content: Thanks Guys. After having slept on this, I will revise the KS campaign outline a bit to include some initial, more easily digested information, including demo videos. We were actually initially planning to do this but figured the video would be too long.I think that, these days, many KS campaigns flop not because the projects are bad but because there are so many project owners that simply do not deliver! High-pledge products are therefore much too risky for most people. The public therefore must, either via exceedingly fancy graphics, or via other more substantial evidence of quality, get a feeling of trust of the project owner. It's like the saying in business investments goes; don't invest in the product, invest in the people.Therefore, i believe, to establish trust and convey experience via a rather strong focus on me is critical. Having said that, I will add in some more focus on the product.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 08:48:30 pm
content: Just one little note, you come across a little defensive in your responses to some of the comments on here; Keep in mind that the posters genuinely want to help you succeed in your campaign, not pick holes in it for fun (at least based on my reading).It's not easy to market to engineers (as you know!) since we're all tight-wads who half the time will rather spend 10h writing our own protocol analyser code rather than pay another $300 for a proper tool (sad but true!), so I think the comments that encourage you to try and broaden your market are spot-on, especially when it comes to Kickstarter where the risk-averse nature of engineers kicks in even worse!Best of luck with the campaign, looks like a great tool and I hope you make it!

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2014, 05:21:44 am
content: Quote from: janekm on August 21, 2014, 08:48:30 pmI do think that a bigger problem is that people now, by default, assume that most projects on KS are bogus. Just look in the "Dodgy KS projects" area of this forum. People have become cynical. I think, what is needed, is a massive amount of "evidence" material that shows that the project is real as well as very good explanations as to why the project should be given a chance to live by the KS community.Quote from: janekm on August 21, 2014, 08:48:30 pmThanks.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 03:00:07 am
content: Alright, I have now updated the Kickstarter campaign with some more "beginner material". We also included over an hour worth of lab demos so everyone can see what goes into these USB and PCI Express Protocol Analyzers.we're also doing an Indiegogo campaign at the same time, hoping to capture maximum exposure that way. I'm hoping to go live this weekend or early next week.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 08:02:48 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 23, 2014, 03:00:07 amDon't think that's a good idea - IGG is becoming known as a haven for scammers & amateurs, and splitting between 2 sites risks diluting interest and causing confusion

author: fake-name
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 08:58:19 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 23, 2014, 08:02:48 amVery much this, not so much because of IGG's scammer rep, as because you'll probably spread out your pledges.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 11:53:02 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 23, 2014, 03:00:07 amDon't, simply don't.Exposure is done by putting add's all over the world/internet, not by just opening two identical stores in the same town.It is only adding to YOUR risk if only one is succesfully funded, but both are needed.If only one of them needs to be successfully funded, you are cutting your chances of success in half.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 05:56:02 pm
content: Alright, will not do the IGG one.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 06:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: sunnyhighway on August 23, 2014, 11:53:02 amThat leads me to my next question; what to do, once the KS campaign goes live, to maximize the exposure of the campaign. I don't use Facebook or Linkedin...

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 06:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 23, 2014, 06:03:37 pmPosting on forums like this one. Also, consider USB related mailing lists. Because IMO software developers mucking about with usb drivers seem a likely target group.For example see:http://www.linux-usb.org/mailing.htmlI would be seriously surprised if you don't find some people on linux-usb-devel interested in your analyzer.Regarding decoding plugins: if you have a well enough documented API for those plugins upfront, that might help people decide to back the project.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 07:20:20 pm
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 23, 2014, 06:03:37 pmStart marketing before you launch.Good reading:http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2014/08/47250-how-this-traffic-generation-strategy-made-over-100000-on-indiegogo/

author: fake-name
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2014, 11:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on August 23, 2014, 06:40:16 pmIt's probably a good idea to at least have a basic linux tool for talking to the analyser before trying to market it to thelinux-usb mailing list.Trying to sell awindows onlytool to people who do linux kernel development is probably going to end in lots of sarcasm.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 11:54:45 am
content: Quote from: fake-name on August 23, 2014, 11:17:51 pmYeah, you're probably right. I went over the project description and see it is a .NET application, so not the number 1 candidate for an easy port. And I suspect John_ITIC is probably not super eager to flush extra time into a re-implementation.That said, it's probably all about presentation. If you mention the it's a windoze app & for valid reasons such-n-such, then the amount of sarcasm should be reduced.I mean, I definitely prefer working under linux as my main work environment, but if tool XYZ is compelling enough I don't mind a reboot. Plus this thing probably works in a VM, so even less pain.Being a <insert-OS-here> purist at your own expense (missing out on good tools) would be a bit silly after all.Anyways, it would be a great start if the communication layer between main app & the widget is somewhat portable.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 01:34:15 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on August 24, 2014, 11:54:45 amIf you need a tool like this, getting a system with the right OS to run it on as well is no big deal - porting would be a major waste of resources.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 01:49:23 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 24, 2014, 01:34:15 pmFully agreed. I was just pointing out some ways in which to avoid the sarcasm mentioned, while still making some sales to that specific target audience. Besides, an easy to access communication layer to the widget would help building/integrating, no matter what the OS. Or maybe it already does LXI out of the box, and I'm just blind.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2014, 07:58:43 pm
content: Quote from: fake-name on August 23, 2014, 11:17:51 pmI don't think so - this is a tool for analyzing USB in general and has nothing to do with Linux.Unfortunately, it is not so easy as one would believe to create a Linux version of the 1480A USB Protocol analyzer application. The main Protocol View is built around a very advanced Virtual Tree Control which is only available for .NET. This Virtual Tree Control only requests the available data needed to display the part of the trace currently visible on screen. If you check out my Kickstarter campaign (below) then there are two half-hour videos that explain these features in detail.There has been an attempt by a 3rd party developer to create Linux software for the 1480A unit.https://github.com/vpelletier/ITI1480A-linuxThanks,/John.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 09:00:28 pm
content: Okay, the Kickstarter campaign is now live:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/itic/professional-usb-20-ls-fs-hs-protocol-analyzer-modI plan to create many more technical videos regarding USB, which will be posted to InternationalTestInstruments.com and Youtube. Plus the mandatory press releases as well as forum posts to spread the word, of course.I have found that there is hardly any technical information available on USB except for a few books. I'm quite confident this can be improved upon.

author: marcan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 01:48:30 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 amBut then you do anyway.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 amNo, that's not the whole point of OpenVizsla. The whole point of OpenVizsla is to make available the hardware for an open source USB analyzer at prices accessible to the hobbyist, hacker, and maker community, without sacrificing capability compared to existing offerings. The target market is initially hobbyists and reverse engineers that want a USB analyzer but don't want to shell out the cost of existing commercial offerings, which, as most test equipment, have a very high price point purely due to their target market.One example use case is the Kinect reverse engineering that I did, for which Adafruit provided traces from a Beagle 480. The community had to wait for them to buy a USB analyzer and use it because nobody had that kind of money to spend. I could've done that with OpenVizslatoday, with the existing bare-bones software. Even without SDRAM buffering (the part that we were interested in was the initialization, which is small enough to fit in BRAM). I mean, I ended up writing my own protocol parsing scripts anyway, from a dump of the raw USB packets, so it's not like the Beagle UI's protocol analyzer features did me any good since I was reverse engineering a proprietary protocol.I've seen a photo of the 1480A's guts. USB PHY, FPGA, SDRAM, USB interface chip. Same as the OpenVizsla. There's no reason why it can't do exactly the same things (or more). And there's also no reason why existing USB analyzers have to be so expensive either. You've been in that situation -undercutting the competition, which I applaud- and you know full well that the profit margin on existing offerings was massive, and still is quite large for the 1480A. Please don't resort to bashing OV just because it is now undercutting you. Having to resort to badmouthing the competition is not a good sign.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 am... in the current bare-bones software.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 amHyperbole much? As stupidly complicated and overengineered as USB 2.0 is, no, the PHY setup does not have even remotely close to 100 states, and even if it did, a state machine, even that large, isn't exactly rocket science.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 amAll of which is, as you mention, a function of the software, which is open source. There are already several backers working on that. Wireshark dissectors, for example, can pretty trivially implement most of the high-level field decoding, descriptor parsing, and such.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 15, 2014, 07:42:36 amWell, the community has one year before your kickstarter project will ship to work on the software, so we'll see where things stand by then. Stupid organizational drama aside (none of the delays and issues of the OpenVizsla project were due to the difficulty of building a USB analyzer, it was more about stupid design decisions, feature creep, and the fact that pytey ditched the project and ran away), that's a lot of time in the open source world.Look, I get that the 1480A is a protocol analyzer that workstoday(and for several years) and includes a full software suite that makes it much more usable now, but please don't bash OV. The hardware is every bit as capable as the 1480A. The HDL does actuallyworktoday, with a few limitations. So you have to specify the speed in advance for now - big deal; most users are debugging protocol issues, not speed negotiation, and it's not like the 1480A can do signal-level analysis if you have a signal integrity problem either; you need a good DSO with a differential probe for that, so speed negotiation is actually a minuscule part of what people are interested in. There's a branch that finally adds SDRAM buffering support (the lack of which until recently was, admittedly, embarrassing, but we were focusing on getting the hardware out instead of on polishing the software), and people are working on adding e.g. Wireshark frontend support. And the price of the OV is right around the same ballpark as the price of the 1480Bfirmware upgrade.Edit: and yeah, I think you'll get quite some chuckling if you attempt to advertise a Windows-only protocol analyzer on the linux-usb mailing list. I'm a Linux user, and as far as I'm concerned, OpenVizsla greatly surpasses every other USB analyzer in its current form, because, well, I can actually use it at full speed and without starting a VM (VMs tend to suck at USB 2.0 passthrough throughput. In a previous life I developed a virtual xHCI controller for QEMU that was much faster, but while it made it into mainline, it didn't do so in a form that was as fast as my original hack). Nevermind that places like linux-usb don't take kindly to advertisements in general. Don't do it. That is not the correct way to reach your target audience. OV is actually an open source project that works with Linux that they might be more interested in, and even then I wouldn't cold-mail that list advertising OV.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 03:12:54 am
content: Is that you Bushing...?I was not trying to bash Openviszla - I was asked in this thread why the1480A/B USB Protocol analyzer was more costly then OpenViszla and what capabilities our design offered that was not available in OpenViszla. As our Kickstarter campaign explains, there's quite a lot...Of course, hooking up the parts on a PCB is the easy part. Making a professional, full-featured, robust FPGA Digital Design and creating professional PC software is where the complexity lies. To create professional products, a massive investment in time is needed. The devil is in the details. Based on my experience working in industry with these kinds of projects, a team of 2-3 people would likely need a couple of years to crank out the required PCB + HDL + PC Code. A senior engineer costs a company some $150K / year (US) so the development costs are somewhere north of $600K-$800K. When amortizing this over the few years the technology is active, there's not much profit per unit sold.So, no, there is not a huge markup in most professional products since several man-years go into the HDL and Software. One can not only add together the parts cost and add on some profit margin. There is a huge investment in Intellectual property that goes into modern products (since they are programmable on both the HW+SW sides). There is a reason why professional analyzers cost thousands of dollars. Normally, only a larger company can afford the outlay for such development projects.Finally, our customers would not be interested in buying our products for learning or hacking. They want a ready-to-use package that immediately can fix their USB problem so they can get on with their paying work. Quite different from open-source. Like the saying goes; "Linux is free if your time is worth nothing".../John.

author: marcan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 05:49:42 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 03:12:54 amContrary to popular belief, bushing and I are not the same person. He posts on EEVblog as bushing, and neither of us is a fan of playing the sockpuppet game.(Also, bushing is way too nice to get into this kind of argument.)But I did write some code for OV.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 03:12:54 amI get that, and I'm happy that the 1480A exists (more competition is good, plus it's good inspiration for figuring out what features people want), but the part where you called OV a "a bare hobby board with some sample code" struck me as, well, less than nice. That's like calling the USRP a "bare hobby board with some sample code" instead of an SDR platform. Both are open source projects, and USRP is wildly successful. OV is just in its infancy.Also, the part where you deliberately call out as OV not having followed through in your project description, considering you published this right after OV did in fact follow through and deliver the hardware, well, seems like a deliberate smear campaign. I don't think you need to resort to these tactics to sell your idea.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 03:12:54 amThat is true (without getting into the specifics of your estimate; development times vary wildly and I think it could be done somewhat cheaper, but I don't have any hard data). As techydude explained though, the open source way is a new alternative to the traditional development and support model. There are people willing to do the work for free as long as they get to tinker with their hardware in an open way and become part of a community. This is the model that OV is pursuing, which is why the cost is much lower. Once the software is written, everyone else can benefit from it for free. I think for products marketed towards the hobby/maker/hacker community, this model has the potential to be a lot more successful due to the extra community involvement and much lower development cost.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 03:12:54 amSnark about Linux aside (seriously, Windows can sometimes be more of a time waster than a modern Linux distro these days), it sounds like you're not attempting to market this KS towards hobbyists then; but those are the kinds of people that tend to lurk on KS and pledge for these kinds of projects as far as I can tell, and even you call out all the maker buzzwords at the top (rPi, BeagleBoard, etc.). Will you get enough professional developers pledging on KS to reach your goal? I don't know, honestly, but I get the feeling that it's the wrong platform if you're going for that target market.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 06:23:12 am
content: Hi again.By not following through, I meant three years too late and much less than many backers expected. Delivering three years too late is definitely not following through. At least not in my world. Also, as explained to the person asking about OV and ITIC difference, OV is clearly not a protocol analyzer but, essentially, a bare board with example code that shows basic PHY configuration and data capture. If the board is not professional, then it is for hobby use.A protocol analyzer is something very specific; it analyzes the protocol. Openviszla could perhaps one day become a protocol analyzer but I would today probably describe it as a USB packet snooper. In fact, that is what it says right at the top of the OV KS description:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzerAnyways, openviszla is a cool project and i'm not trying to diss it. I have just pointed out the differences since I was asked to explain the price difference. I would love to work on open-source projects myself but, unfortunately, I have a family to feed so must work for money.Edit: Yes, I know that the Raspberry Pi, Beagleboard stuff is not in line with what my normal customers would work with. However, folks here insisted I put something like this on the top and, who knows, it might get some extra exposure because of it. I also suspect that the KS crowd may not be the professional engineer looking for test instruments but who knows? In the worst case, I'll get an indication of the amount of public interest and I will get some extra traffic tohttp://www.InternationalTestInstruments.com./John.

author: bushing
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 07:01:26 am
content: Quote from: marcan on August 26, 2014, 05:49:42 amCan confirm, am bushing.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 06:23:12 amWe could get into a semantic debate here, but is it really worth it? I shipped hardware, am working with other people on software. I am following through.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 06:23:12 amBest of luck with your endeavors.-b

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 07:12:46 am
content: Quote from: bushing on August 26, 2014, 07:01:26 amAlright. Peace.

author: marcan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 07:20:23 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 06:23:12 amIt may be 3 years late, but it still followed through on the hardware. I think the only feature (not design choice, as the design changed, but actual feature) that was present in the KS blurb that didn't make it into the shipping design was standalone mode with SD card storage (and technically that could be added by just throwing a connector on the extension port and writing some code to stream to SD instead of USB).Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 06:23:12 amAgain, your choice of wording seems to be specifically designed to diss the project. It's not "a bare board"; it does come with a case in sick-of-beige style (which you may or may not like, and may or may not consider professional, but it's a very poor excuse to consider it inferior). It's not "example code", but a functional USB snooper, and the HDL part isn't far from what professional USB protocol analyzers do (the only bits that are really missing are the speed autodetect/chirp detect and triggering functionality - the rest is in the host-side protocol analysis software). There's a difference between "have an FPGA dev board with a PHY on it to play with, good luck!" and "hey, we designed this cool USB protocol analyzer hardware platform and we're building a protocol analysis stack on top of it, want to help?". You can't equate a nascent open source project with "sample code". Especially not with what often passes for "sample code" in the industry - dear $DEITY, that time I had to clean up the XMOS USB audio reference firmware for a personal project (unrelated to OV). At least OV was designed by people that grok hardwareandsoftware development to a reasonable extent. Actually, I think the all-too-common industry situation where engineers are on either side but not both is one of the recipes for inflated development cost and lower efficiency, but I digress.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 06:23:12 amAgain, you don't seem to understand the nature of open source hardware. OpenVizsla is anopen source projectwhose goal is to build an open source USB protocol analyzer. The hardware that shipped is every bit as capable of USB protocol analysis as the 1480A. The remaining work comprises the software, which is a community project. OpenVizsla the project is not, today, a functional USB protocol analyzer (although it is a functional USB packet sniffer). However, the OpenVizsla rewards that shipped from the OpenVizsla Kickstarter projectarecapable of, and therefore qualify as, the hardware platform for a USB protocol analyzer. It's a subtle distinction, one that rarely exists with traditional commercial development, but understanding it is critical when you're talking about open source projects. It's like saying that a barebones PC isn't a computer because it doesn't come with an operating system. Open hardware, particularly anything mildly complex, often ships with unfinished firmware or software that is then improved collaboratively.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 06:23:12 amSome of us get paid to write software that often ends up on GitHub under an open source license. Just because you choose not to or have not been able to pursue a career that allows you to do so does not mean that it is not a viable business model. It seems you have a predisposition against open-source projects.Though nobody's hiding the fact that, so far, OV has been a definite time and money sink for bushing. Mostly due to the project management SNAFU. But hey, live and learn. As I'm sure you're aware, this project is a side project for everyone involved, and everyone's job is unrelated.Quote from: John_ITIC on August 26, 2014, 06:23:12 amFair enough, and best of luck. I'm just sad that you had to throw that jab at OV in there. If anything, that's the least professional part of your KS pitch.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 08:15:10 am
content: I think we by now know the differences between the OV and the ITIC 1480A/B so i'm not going to dwell more upon it. As far as the mentioning of OV/Bushing on my Kickstarter campaign; I agree it was unnecessary so I took it out./John.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 04:34:40 pm
content: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/itic/professional-usb-20-ls-fs-hs-protocol-analyzer-mod/postsThe second day has started and two backers (Anthony and Jonathan) have each pledged for their 1480B USB 2.0 LS/FS/HS Protocol Analyzers. Thank you both! I even got some tipPlease note; we will need 158 pledges at this level to reach the funding goal. 156 remains. Just as important as your financial contributions are your social contributions. Please email/tweet/facebook five of your engineering friends and tell them about this Kickstarter project. Ask them to tell five friends. This is very important or the whole campaign could very well flop!If this Kickstarter campaign is a success, I will continue with more projects once this one is completed; the next one would most likely be a USB 3.0 SuperSpeed USB Protocol Analyzer with all advanced features available in my current 2500A PCI Express Protocol Analyzer. This has been requested by my customers over the last couple of years. And of course, the price will be 30% to 50% lower than other units!What I'm working on now:1) I have prepared a press release through PrWeb.com that will be released on 8/27. This will give some additional publicity of this KS campaign.2) I am working on putting up new YouTube videos related to USB. The plan is to cover USB very thoroughly from an engineering standpoint. Everything from the differential signaling and signal integrity to high-level transactions and protocol analysis will be covered. Each episode will cover one specific topic.If this campaign is funded, during the project design and implementation, I also plan to give detailed weekly engineering updates regarding the progress and what has been done during the day. As a professional consultant, this is how I'm used to working. Clients want to know detailed progress and, in this case, I'm working for you!Thanks again! Please remember to tell your friends!/John.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 10:50:02 pm
content: Press Release, Email Campaign, Teardown Tuesday and Tech Review VideosToday the press release went out. It will hopefully bring some much needed attention to this Kickstarter campaign.http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/08/prweb12120525.htmI have also contacted about 100 engineers I've been in contact with during my 9 years working for Western Digital. If you are one of the lucky ones that have received my email, even if you don't know who I am, please reach out to a few of your friends to tell them about this project!I am currently preparing a copy of the current model 1480A USB 2.0 LS/FS/HS Protocol Analyzer that I will send over to Dave Jones at the EevBlog, hopefully getting it reviewed in one of his popular 'Teardown Tuesday' episodes!http://www.eevblog.com/http://www.internationaltestinstruments.com/products/97-1480a-usb-20-protocol-analyzer.aspxSince an FPGA and Microprocessor based product doesn't have too much to show in parts on the PCB, I'm considering to also do my own, technical, teardown in the form of a series of videos that explain what is inside the FPGA Digital Design, FX2LP Microprocessor as well as PC software to make a USB 2.0 Protocol Analyzer tick!/John.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 09:02:51 pm
content: Thank you John, Chris, Mark, Clark, Alex, David and Simon for your pledges!We have now reached 2.9% of our goal. Only 41 days are left so I need your help to accelerate the funding process. If you have any friends or colleagues that you think would be interested in USB, PCI Express, SATA or SAS protocol analysis, please contact them today to let them know of this campaign. Only with their help, too, will this campaign be a success. We all want good, quality tools at prices we can afford but unfortunately this doesn't magically happen. Please email / facebook / tweet any friends today!I have also Fedex'ed a 1480A USB Protocol Analyzer To Dave @ EEVBlog (EEVBlog.com) in the hope that it can make it into Mailbag and teardown tuesday! Keep an eye out on EEVBlog.com in the coming week or so!

author: jmole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2014, 11:41:31 pm
content: Would love to back this, since I've been wanting to develop a USB audio interface for a while now, but it's just too much $$

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2014, 09:11:18 pm
content: Yep, it seems Kickstarter is not the right venue for attracting funding for this type of project. The Kickstarter community appears to mostly be students and younger folks that rather would spend $500 on a new laptop than on a USB Protocol Analyzer. I don't blame them - with limited funds one must choose what to put the money into!I'm currently looking into attracting professional Angel money:http://www.techcoastangels.com. They have much deeper pockets and can contribute with management and coaching too.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2014, 06:20:14 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on September 07, 2014, 09:11:18 pmCould be a good choice in your case. But do keep in mind how their pockets became deep in the first place. Don't give in to their first offer and put up a serious fight for your cut. If not, you might find yourself on the short end of the deal.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 06:59:05 am
content: I cant see VC investing in a niche like that.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 09:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on September 09, 2014, 06:59:05 amAn Angel is not a VC. Google will reveal the difference.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 06:05:19 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on September 09, 2014, 09:41:45 pmnah, its all the same. They bring money, and require stupid returns. Nobody is going to fight over niche product enabling development for _old, outdated_ standard, in a market full of competition.well, maybe if you slapped accelerated IoT diversity empowering stickers on it.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 06:33:13 am
content: Is there any temptation to sell yourself / the product to Microchip (or some other USB silicon manufacturer)?

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 07:34:09 pm
content: Quote from: Precipice on September 10, 2014, 06:33:13 amNo temptation on my part! I have also contacted a local Angel investor to see whether they understand this enough to want to get involved. Angels are essentially interested in making some 10x return on investment for low risk and this certainly applies in this case. In contrast, VCs are interested if their multimillion dollar investment can be put to work. Angels investments run in the $100K to $500K range.I have actually now started work on a USB 3.0 Protocol Analyzer. This will get done with or without investor involvement. Essentially, the technology is the same as my 2500A PCI Express Protocol Analyzer. USB 3.0 in fact uses PCIe 2.0 technology for the link encoding and signalling so can quite easily be built on top of the 2500A hardware (different external USB 3.0 PHYs are needed).

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2014, 05:41:51 am
content: I like this type of tools, which eevblog reader does not. If it is for development work for a particular product, probably there would be a few on my bench already. As it is, if time permits, maybe this can be used for hacking needs like the Novena laptop of bunnie. Maybe I consider too much as I missed the Novena crowdfunding too, but if the Novena community builds up, it is going to be a powerful tool. I know I am going to get a Novena sooner or later. Maybe some repositioning can help.

author: marcan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 02:41:17 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on September 11, 2014, 05:41:51 amFWIW, since the host side software is open source, OpenVizsla already works with the Novena(and, together with the Novena's FPGA and its high-speed interface connector, makes for a very powerful combination for reverse engineering of USB devices in a small, mobile form factor!)(Sorry for the plug, but I just had to, considering this has been done before!)

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 08:19:21 am
content: A quick update: Like i mentioned earlier, I have started the design work of a USB 3.0 Protocol Analyzer. It will be built around an Altera Cyclone V E, in 896 pin package (A7 device). It will have a 4 GByte DDR2 SODIMM and two TI TUSB 1310A PHYs. The idea is to pass the data through the FPGA rather than snoop on the data going by. The reasons are complex but essentially boils down to the requirement to have single ended terminators turned off when the upstream port is not powering the bus (or when the link goes into U1 low-power mode).An additional advantage with passing the data through the FPGA is that the unit can also act as a traffic generator, BERT tester etc. In other words, the same board can be used for multiple instruments.The form-factor will be the same as the 1480A (USB) and 2500A (PCIE) analyzers, namely a small 120x100 mm pocket-sized unit. This should be the smallest USB 3.0 Protocol Analyzer on the market.More details as available! Of course, I won't bother crowd-sourcing this...

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 05:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on September 18, 2014, 08:19:21 amCount me in. I won't have these other analyzers on my desk for much longer.One of the reasons I have the Lecroy is because it does traffic generation. You can run a suite of compliance tests against the DUT, they are VBscript that talk to a Lecroy API. The whole thing is very much duct-taped together and new bugs are always being found.If you can make it useful for preliminary compliance testing, that will be huge.Lecroy also has many additional tests that are far more useful/informative than the USBIF ones.You may consider using LPDDR2 instead of DDR2 so-dimms. Smaller, not expensive. A bit harder to source, but cheap DDR2 sodimms are quickly fading into the past.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 10:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: marshallh on September 19, 2014, 05:00:54 pmI did a search but could not find any LPDDR2 SODIMMs, only LPDDR3. I need to use DDR2 because Cyclone V does not support write/read-leveling required by DDR3 DIMMS. I know other USB 3 Analyzer manufacturers use higher end FPGAs so they can use DDR3 but I feel the cost is not justified. 4 GByte should be plenty. Micron still have them active and there are a ton on the open market so should not be hard to source.I'm debating with myself whether traffic generation is worth the investment. Most people would likely use the analyzer to find bugs in the communication protocol. LeCroy has extensive traffic generation and protocol validation. So does Ellisys. I suspect it is not good to try to meet all their traffic generation features - that will result in exactly the same offering. Likely better to have the most needed basic features with a lower price?

author: macgyver0815
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 11:19:50 am
content: You could get in trouble with sourcing old DDR2 at acceptable pricing in the next few years.Cyclone V does support DDR3. You've got BGAs and impedance controlled PCB anyway so why not use the chips directly?

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 08:43:40 pm
content: Quote from: macgyver0815 on September 20, 2014, 11:19:50 amI need 4 GB SODIMMs. It makes no sense to put 4GB with discrete parts on the board when SODIMMs are readily available.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2014, 06:20:55 am
content: Well, as expected, little interest in the project due to much too high cost so the KS campaign yielded little interest. Thanks to all you that pledged, though.As mentioned, I am instead working on a USB 3.0 Protocol Analyzer. I'm currently doing the layout of the PCB. Picture attached for those interested (120 x 100 mm PCB).

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2014, 03:15:41 pm
content: Looks good. You can disable "Ordered blending" in ALtium PCB3d settings to get some nice antialiasing/smoothing.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 03:44:22 am
content: The USB 3.0 Protocol Analyzer PCB is now fully routed. I have attached a couple of 3D screenshots. This time with the Altium Designer antialiasing fully turned on to 16x. The viewing is a bit sluggish so a good trade-off turned out to be 8x while working with the PCB in 3D.Next step is to import the PCB into Hyperlynx and do the Signal and Power Intergrity tests. I have to make sure that the DDR2 interface is working properly. Later, I will create an Altera Quartus II test design to make sure that my FPGA pin-out is valid. In the past, i incorrectly pin-swapped to invalid pins - Quartus II will catch this so i'll make sure to test properly before sending this PCB to the factory for a prototype.This will absolutely be the smallest USB 3.0 Protocol Analyzer on the market (120x100 mm PCB). The small PCB will make the GND and PWR planes smaller so requires proper power integrity similation to ensure sufficiently low plane inductance. Making things small has interesting challenges/John

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 11:02:14 am
content: Quote from: John_ITIC on November 12, 2014, 03:44:22 amI take it you spotted the tracks in free space over the routed bit of your edge connector?(I tend to run a keepout line around the edge of the PCB to remind myself....)Looks great, good stuff!

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 02:26:22 pm
content: @Precipice - Well spotted!@John_ITIC - Looks great. Out of interest, how many layers is it?

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 09:53:13 pm
content: Ha! No, actually didn't see those tracks but it is fixed nowThe PCB is 10 layers with blind vias. This is the minimum technology board that be used with this high ball count FPGA. Any lower than that and it can't be escape routed. As it is now, things are quite tight, routing-wise./John.