Strange Company rules and manipulations - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 12:44:28 pm
content: Just opening a new thread to discuss strange company rules and various techniques used by companies to manipulate employees (engineers who are actually working).Strange rule on sexual harassment=========================In one company I worked, there was a set of rules on sexual harassment as was needed by law. It had many clauses like, employees should not indulge in pornography and sexual acts while at office and so on.... One strange clause was "Indecent exposure of body parts". I could never understand what is the difference between a "decent exposure" and "indecent exposure". So I asked the HR lady to explain what length of a skirt worn by some lady would contribute to "indecent exposure". Or how many inches below the waist line can a guy wear his jeans? Does the company have a minimum length criteria? For unknown reasons, the email was never replied and I'm still in the dark about this rule.Have you come across any such rules or any other manipulation methods?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 12:57:08 pm
content: I used to work in a company that decided it was a good idea to think up some new daft rules almost every week, and everyone had to sign a list to show that you'd read them. I thought it was a ridiculous idea so every time including the first I signed it Mr. D. Duck, and amazingly no one ever asked who Mr. D. Duck was.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 01:06:05 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on September 19, 2019, 12:57:08 pmIn the UK, that would still count as a signature. Roughly speaking, here you can call yourself anything you like provided you are not committing fraud. Besides, what someone else mightreadas D Duck could just be your cruddy writingHaving said that, in unpleasant companies HR-droids love having minor infractions available on your record. They make "good justifications" for firing you later. (No, I haven't been a victim of that!)

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 02:05:58 pm
content: When my mum entered the workforce back in the '60s it was completely normal for men to have porn mags on their desks and grope secretaries. It was normal for an experienced member of staff to take you to one side on your fist day and warn you about who not to be alone in a room with. Fortunately most places have come a long way since then.Was your intention with your hilarious email to HR to convey the message 'I don't think there should be rules against sexually harassing my colleagues', or ' I genuinely don't know how to behave appropriately in a professional environment, please help me'? I don't think either of those reflects well on you an an employee to be honest.Almost all stupid rules are there because people are surprisingly stupid. They are removing 'but there's nothing in the employee handbook about not getting my nob out in the office for a laugh' as a defence because there are definitely people around who are that dumb.

author: PwrElectronics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 04:24:45 pm
content: The heath & safety dept would regularly inventory the contents of the first aid supplies in the lab. If the count of band-aids changed and there was not a corresponding "incident report" filled out, the lab supervisor would get grief that was passed down to all the engineers and techs who may have been working in the lab during that time period.If you DID fill in a incident report, that would set off some annoying drama and a meeting with H&S and your supervisor. The stats then end up on the quarterly OSHA reports, etc. All employee memos on how to be more safe at work to follow.Makes sense if you were really hurt BUT totally stupid for a nicked or jabbed finger from a probe or X-acto blade, etc.Most everyone started to keep their own stock of band-aids in their tool bag. OR, like me who was out once, washed off the blood, put some paper towel over it and wrapped in electrical tape and went back to work.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 04:38:08 pm
content: If you do have an industrial injury, fail to report it, and it goes sideways, you are on your own. No report, no injury as far as the company is concerned. I know it seems stupid but what if that little nick gets infected and then things go very wrong. It's better to have the company's insurance.

author: kamtar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 04:44:14 pm
content: QuoteI'm surprised about that, here they are usually happy when you don't report injury because it means they are not responsible and don't have to pay you if something happens.

author: PwrElectronics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 05:15:35 pm
content: QuoteI do get what you are saying. Maybe its my (and most coworkers) upbringing and background to not even think about suing, etc. This being a smaller city in the upper US midwest with lots of folks (me included) that came from the farm or small towns. Add to that the heavy-handed way they went about things. Also, the H&S manager at the time had something of a "Napoleon Complex" going on and ticked off everyone he interacted with... No desire to be interviewed/grilled by that SOB.... If it was just a simple log that person X used a band-aid on date Y and they left it at that, probably nobody would have made a fuss.At a prior company I was giving a tour of the mfg line to the customer and while standing near a bench with the customer nearby, a steel lid off a phone wire junction box in the open truss ceiling of the plant crashed on my head. I got taken care of by the first aid volunteer and got a ride to the ER for stitches by the plant manager. I actually returned to work after that for a bit and later heard the customer was quite impressed I was not knocked out! At any rate, if a incident report was filled in for that, it was not by me and no admonishments about not being safe at work either.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 05:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on September 19, 2019, 12:44:28 pmA good-faith approach to good-faith rules produces the best results. A comfortable, relaxed work environment with happy, productive employees. One does not need to get specific, because every situation is different, and sometimes the rules need to bend one way or the other to serve a greater overall (moral) purpose. Anyone who treats others fairly, will receive the same in return.A bad-faith approach to good-faith rules produces people like you. What length of clothing constitutes indecency, or tone of voice constitutes harassment, is exactly the wrong kind of question to ask. You are implying that you fully intend to commit such acts, to the fullest possible degree, while still technically complying with the letter of the rule. A good-faith rule reacts to bad-faith behavior by stamping it out when the spirit of the rule is violated, not necessarily the word.Now, it's not clear if the rules were also in bad faith. Rules that get overly picky, and self-contradictory, may come from the same kinds of people, whether indirectly (through upwards pressure on management) or because theyaremanagement and have no expectation of receiving fairness from others -- nor giving any in the first place. Rules in bad faith don't deserve good faith, and you might ask such a question fairly, but the better solution is to leave.Tim

author: FreddieChopin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 05:39:28 pm
content: One day while walking the dog I picked up two fresh and empty 200ml bottles ofnalewkas. It'scheapaffordable way to get drunk so bums leave them everywhere. Cleaned them up a bit and next day at work I placed them deep in a cupboard used to store bags of coffee. About 2 weeks later we started having random, mandatory breathalyzer tests for all employeesand HR lady was going crazy, asking everyone for a confidental face-to-face meeting to identify colleagues who could've consumed alcohol at work

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 05:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on September 19, 2019, 12:44:28 pmwhat were you trying to accomplish by asking such silly questions?

author: FreddieChopin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 05:47:18 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on September 19, 2019, 05:45:43 pmSometimes its not about accomplishing anything but just pissing off people for the fun of it.Chaotic neutralswill understand.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 07:14:58 pm
content: Strange and ill-defined rules are the best for those that enforce them. They get to decide how the rules are applied if it ever comes up.Of course you will never get any answer. They didn't answer not just because they thought it was silly of you to ask. Answering that in a clear fashion would COMMIT them to clear criterions, something they will never want to do. Especially for something as subjective as "indecent".

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 07:20:05 pm
content: One of my former corporations had an official regulation that we were not allowed to archive any emails that "could be of any value to government authorities" in case of a potential investigation and litigation. The limit was set to 3 months, older emails were wiped out.I suppose all corporations have these rules.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 09:09:13 pm
content: There’s the old adage that rules are a history of all the stuff someone has done at some point...

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 10:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: Brutte on September 19, 2019, 07:20:05 pmYes, I also worked for a company that had a similar rule and forced deletion of all emails unless there was an approved exception. This came into place after a length and costly law suite. It's interesting to look at the tactics employed by companies large enough to have legal divisions who need to justify their daily keep.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 11:57:42 pm
content: Quote from: Brutte on September 19, 2019, 07:20:05 pmI've never heard of such a rule, and never worked at company that had that.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 12:08:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2019, 11:57:42 pmI've only come across this when working in the US. But, I suspect the company I worked for adopted the practice across their global entities.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 12:11:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2019, 11:57:42 pmIts becoming more common in the U.S. ... email records tend to hurt companies in court more than help them.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 01:29:07 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on September 19, 2019, 12:44:28 pmAt a company I worked at in the late 90's an employee was reported to management for sexual harassment. A receptionist had reported him to management for persistently looking down her top when talking with her.He agreed that he did look and told HR that if she was going to wear low cut tops and then he may continue to look. HR had no response and the world kept turning.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 02:15:44 am
content: I hate excessive rules and the world is filled with them now days. I believe in using common sense and case per case basis, but sadly not how society works. Though if there is no specifics for those indecent exposure rules it may very well be a case per case basis thing. So say something you're wearing is a tad on the risky side you'd probably just be approached and asked not to wear that again rather than immediately get in trouble because you are over some arbitrary measurement limit of how much skin is exposed or something.I consider myself lucky my company is not riddled with rules but as a professional environment I think everyone is just expected to follow common sense with everything. The good thing with broad rules is typically if someone feels you are against, there is no way to measure it, so rather than being cut and dry and getting in trouble, you'll get a warning or a friendly request first before getting in trouble.At the end of the day though when it comes with anything if I have to ask myself "is this allowed?" chances are the answer is probably no. On subject of dress code my company is quite liberal which is nice. I can wear shorts and tshirt to work. But that said I would not wear a shirt with offensive writing, or ripped up shorts etc.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 02:28:57 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on September 21, 2019, 02:15:44 amThis.Rules are there because agitators insist they be put there.If you feel it necessary to push the line, you shouldn't be doing that in the first place. Once in a while -- accidentally say -- that's fine. There needs to be some forgiveness for that. To do otherwise would be just mean. To draw a hard line, removes that forgiveness, and makes the system worse for everyone.There seem to be more rules in places where there are more agitators, or min-maxers. Places with lots of employees (or on an even broader scale, countries with lots of citizens). Places where traits like psychopathy are present by default, or are specifically concentrated (say, military, finance).Tim

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 03:45:28 am
content: Quote from: windsmurf on September 21, 2019, 12:11:17 amFor those not in the USA and had not participated in related process, it can seem kind of strange. I am not a lawyer, but I participated in related processes before. So here is my layman's understanding:In the USA, we have something calldiscovery processin a law suit. Say if I sue my company for for sexual harassment from co-workers, somewhere early in the processes (pre-trial), discovery process starts - lawyers from my side can look at the company (defendant) records in search of supporting evidence.Almost any company would have someone who said something stupid some time, and there is always a chance some juror who may interpret something innocent as something evil.If you start to destroy things when a law suit is filed, even if you did that before a court order to preserve evidence, you are destroying evidence. If a long long time before there is any legal proceeding in the works, email got destroyed as regular company policy (that all emails are NOT stored after X days), they are gone. You merely destroyed your property but you did not obstruct justice (which would be a felony).So, if the benefit of having the record is exceeded by the risk of someone filing some gold-digging law suit... Folks here are smart, I can stop here.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 04:18:42 am
content: Which I think also connects with the "you shouldn't be doing that" premise. Consider a shady Enron-like company that's covering their ass with such a practice.In my experience, in engineering (and on the nicer side of that, I would dare say, or guess), records are kept, because we are indeed doing our job, and if legal got involved, we're only going to end up proving that.Better still not to even get involved in the first place; I've yet to be involved in, or work with someone who has been involved in, contract disputes that went to the courts. This, I imagine, takes good vetting not just of your employees and managers (and your managers knowing their employees' capabilities well), but of your customers as well.Tim

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 04:23:06 am
content: Another strange rule was to not allow female workers to stay beyond 8pm in the office, in order to avoid sexual harassment. However, they also enacted another policy to prevent gender discrimination in the office. These two are self contradictory.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 04:33:09 am
content: Quote from: PwrElectronics on September 19, 2019, 04:24:45 pmAt a company I worked at there was a formal policy that you could not have your own bandaids, aspirin and the like, and most especially could not share them with co-workers.There was a somewhat logical explanation for this, similar to rstofer's comment. They needed to know how much exposure to injuries they had so that appropriate insurance and treatment facilities could be funded. The practical effect of this, on a huge plant site with hundreds of employees was that a paper cut or other minor injury handled the officially correct way meant a long hike to the nurses location or major drama as the plant fire and rescue team showed up. So many scofflaws kept band aids and other stuff around.This company was also one with a formal policy against archiving emails beyond a fixed period (90 days as I recall). Based on a real life problem with an engineer I knew well who generated some well intentioned emails that were quite embarrassing to the company when taken out of context. They decided that the value of old emails was not worth the potential embarrassment. And were probably statistically right, as an high percentage of company email has no value when written, and the value of most of the remainder drops off very rapidly as time passes. I was a scofflaw on that one also, and received neither approbation or congratulations when my archives were useful to the company defending themselves against a lawsuit a few years down the road.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 10:18:48 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 21, 2019, 03:45:28 amThis might of course explain this rule.However, when I read that back then (1+ years ago) I came to the conclusion that the true reason was different. I believe it was a part of a "Protection Act Against Whistleblowing". I cannot quote this and other regulations literally as I do not work there any more, but this particular paragraph meaning +- was like that (for sure it was in one sentence):It is forbidden to archive documentation that could have any potential value to competitors, or any value to government authorities in case of a litigation.Now imagine a hypothetical situation where a corporation gets involved in illegal actions (discrimination, mobbing, theft of intelectual property, falsifying documents, etc). Then a whistleblower will have to collect the evidence, violating second part of this rule. If he gets caught, corporation will prove he was collecting that for competitors. If however whistleblower succeeds with collecting evidence and goes to court, by law this evidence will have to be presented to lawyers that represent the corporation. Then the lawyers can copy this evidence and "prove" beyond any doubt in a second litigation that this information was sold to competitors by whistleblower, incurred losses and demand compensation.Concluding, this is for protection against whistleblowers. Of course this is by no means 100% effective but it will discourage most of the people from even thinking about collecting evidence.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2020, 10:06:02 am
content: Quote from: Brutte on September 24, 2019, 10:18:48 amResurrecting old topic.I have just found a relevantDonald Rumsfeldquote from Wikipedia article which IMHO explains where the above corporation rule comes from:QuoteFor the entity, by setting such rule it is not the abuse that has to be prevented, but rather the collecting of information that proves violation of law.That is why entities penalize or threaten the fact of documenting when they are involved in violating of the law. Be it violating Geneva Convention or violating Criminal Law or some other standards.No proof == no violation.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2020, 12:02:09 pm
content: The early days with IBM was a good company to work for. But they had punitive rules against conflict-of-interest. I wanted to buy $1,000 of Microsoft shares shortly after they floated in 1986, which would be worth around $1.6 million today. But IBM would not let me, as clearly spelled out in the employee booklet About Your Company. Being loyal and trusting of IBM, I did not buy the shares.In 1997, IBM sold hundreds of employees in Wangaratta off to a start-up funded by private equity. The then Chairman of IBM Australia, Robert Savage, told all the Wangaratta employees at a town hall meeting verbatim, "You either join the new company or be deemed to have resigned in which case there will be no redundancy". Having no other suitable high tech employment in the town, almost everyone signed up "by our own free will", including me. In the transition, IBM surprised me with an offer of a 30% discount of a new PC - and revoked $40,000 of my retirement savings in a company held retirement scheme. IBM was highly manipulative and certainly greedy, in my opinion. I should have sent them a bill for the many thousands of unpaid extra hours I worked over the years. The startup failed within a few years. Since then, Robert Savage dropped dead and the CEO of IBM worldwide at the time Louis Gerstner (net worth US$ 630 million) had a son who died choking on a steak sandwich. I am alive, healthy and can sleep at night. In retrospect, I wish I have bought those shares in Microsoft, because in the end I realised I was just a disposable resource to IBM.I vowedneverto work for a large multinational company again.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 11:51:43 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 07, 2020, 01:48:13 pmWhat I suspect that went wrong is that you have expected to benefit from two sources: from salary (past) and raised status (future). Once it became clear that the contract does not include any future benefits of your past effort and the salary is all that you can expect, you accepted the shift as a lost profit.Been there, done that same mistake.So in the hope of (getting promoted) or (raising your position) in the company you have accepted lower salary from the very beginning. Had you been explicitly informed in day 1 about the fact you have had no chance for any promotion or personal development and about inevitable shift at 95% of the project done, your demand for higher salary would have been obvious and no disappointmens would have taken place.To be fair, I think that unless I/You had some explicit written contract rule, everything that is not written in the contract (and does not implicitly come from applicable laws)does not apply.QuoteHomo homini lupus est.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 12:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2019, 11:57:42 pmmine has this. We have a maximum retention for all mails, regardless the content.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 01:50:21 pm
content: My company had a similar rule on emails. Which I ignored. And they were happy to take advantage of that to defend themselves from litigation. No one ever said anything about the rule violation.Such rules are a knee jerk response to a perceived problem. In my companies case I knew the incident and problem that was the source of the rule. The rule would have prevented the problem, but no one thought through the whole situation.Same company had a similar rule that no technical data (drawings, specs, test data, analysis and the like) beyond 20 years. Don't know the motivation on this, avoiding storage cost maybe. But it made no sense for a company that was supporting fielded product 30 and more years old.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2020, 02:01:39 pm
content: I have a different opinion: It's good practice to have a strategy for document storage, archiving, retention.If you don't need it, you don't need it.When you spend a significant budget on storage and access control of mails, and with archiving paper and electronic records, then it's worthwhile taking care to retain every mandatory document and have a way of dealing with the ones that aren't required anymore in a cost efficient way.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 01:53:40 am
content: Applying routine document destruction to email and messaging logs also limits financial cost due to discovery during a lawsuit. I know of at least one case where a company went bankrupt because of having to restore and search archival backups for discovery. Discovery is routinely used to impose costs on the other side encouraging a favorable settlement to a lawsuit.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 21, 2019, 04:33:09 amA company were I worked in California implemented the same policy *after* removing aspirin and such from the first aid kits so no drugs were available. I was told both policies were because of liability.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 02:18:35 am
content: Quote from: DTJ on September 21, 2019, 01:29:07 amMake you wonder what goes on in some peoples' heads.We had a bizarre experience at one large company. The daughter of a manager who worked there went to work with see-through pants on and next to no underwear. One of my engineering mates sat in the cubicle desk next to her. I sat a few cubicles away and I noticed was my engineering mate had a lot more visitors to his desk that morning asking him various technical questions. I heard the girl was told by her manager to go home at lunch time and put some decent clothes on.Oh yes, there was an incident where one rather obese woman working on the factory floor one day had brief hot pants on. It was not a pretty sight. Some of her female co-workers had mistakenly thought she had tucked her skirt into her underwear after going to the toilet and one of them gently ask the woman if she had done that. The embarrassment for both when the answer was no would have been palpable.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 02:58:15 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 09, 2020, 02:19:44 amBuuuuullllshit. Of course men can control their instincts if they want to. If one is raised right, this is not a struggle.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 04:09:07 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 09, 2020, 02:19:44 amWomen do not wear makeup to influence other women. Why isn't makeup considered sexual harassment?Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 09, 2020, 03:27:20 amIt requires training of the proper habits and conscious thought. It also goes against human nature. And women already complain about being left out of traditional male social activities for fear of being accused of sexual harassment.Invite the guys out for beers after work? Sure. Include female coworkers? That is a risk either way.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 04:09:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2019, 11:57:42 pmMe, neither, & frankly, I don't think it would fly in Oz, especially if the Australian Tax Office "came calling".

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 04:42:18 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 09, 2020, 04:09:42 amThere are special minimum retention times for specific types of documents like financial where a general document destruction policy would not apply.

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 04:44:22 am
content: Yes inviting women for drinks may be really risky. Not inviting them when everyone goes for a round of drinks would amount to gender discrimination as well.Sticky situation...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 06:54:31 am
content: Quote from: FreddieChopin on September 19, 2019, 05:39:28 pmMy office has beer in the fridge and fairly often somebody brings in wine or liquor, it's pretty common in the software industry. There are no firm rules around when it can be consumed and so far we haven't had a need for them, people just know that it's inappropriate to get plastered during the day but there's nothing wrong with having a beer or glass of wine over lunch.Most HR rules seem like common sense to me. HR exists to protect the company and the rules are there so that if an incident does occur nobody can blame the company for not telling them they're not allowed to do it. In any of the places I've worked as long as you behave in a sensible way and don't be creepy or obnoxious nobody is going to hassle you.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 10:55:23 am
content: When I started working, my superior was called a manageress, ie: a female manager. If I call a female superior a manageress today, I could be cautioned for being sexist or maybe even fired. This has nothing to do with equal rights and opportunity. It has everything to do with political correctness gone mad. Since when have actresses been called actors? Whatis that?! No wonder men and women are now called "resource" or "headcount" by multinationals. We are not even people, let alone male of female. It is safer not to mention gender in anything in the workplace these days.At one workplace, we wore ESD coats where some were quite frayed. The CEO was extremely tight with money and would never buy replacements. So I asked him if his business partner can sew (she was also his defacto). He got upset saying that asking if a woman can sew is sexist. Besides being the the master of false economy with poor management skills, he was an idiot in general and I left the company soon after as did almost every other employee.

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 11:10:00 am
content: In the tech companies, male to female employee ratio is almost 10:1 or higher. In an office where I was working, the number of male toilets was equal to the number of female toilets. I asked the facility manager to cut down on the female toilets and increase the male ones as the average wait time was very high. They did not like it very much even though my logic was spot on. Do they not consider these things before making the building?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 11:45:27 am
content: I worked for 10 years in the design lab of a company that made good quality switch mode power supplies. On a daily basis we would make engineering decisions that affected fire and electrical safety, the sort of thing that if done wrong would have possibly caused the company to get sued into oblivion. Despite this, we were not trusted to have a key to the stationery cupboard to get a pen.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 12:21:28 pm
content: It's all about people. If a company has hired the wrong persons the troubles will start. And it becomes harder and harder to get the right ones as larger the company grows or is.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 12:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on September 19, 2019, 12:44:28 pmQuote from: madires on February 09, 2020, 12:21:28 pmAlso the local situation and condition sometimes created weird rules.Sorry OP, don't mean to be rude or bashing the country, as you're in India, maybe ... just maybe, this created for a reason, preventive maybe ?This is just an example from CNN, there are so many similarity from others news agencies as well ->CNN search results, just scroll thru the list as it has so many pages, and watch the date of each related entry to see the frequency.Unless these are also fake or fabricated news ?CMIIW

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 01:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 09, 2020, 01:15:54 pmAppreciate the confirmation, to be honest I was wishing & hoping those are fake news.At least at the place where I was born & grew up, as grown up, believe we're all aware that this kind of "incidents" happened as all other places in the world. But looking at the frequency and the "scale & depth" of each incident, personally I find it very-very disturbing.Also believe CNN does not cover all cases, still from the search results, for me these are considered too many, at least at the place where I live.That rules, maybe .. again, just maybe, the creator/author thought, there is nothing wrong adding those extra clause, and .. again ... maybe, he or "she" believes it serves more good than harm, looking at the local circumstances of course.Apologize if my "opinion" sounds rude, just pointing out different paradigm, especially from a foreigner.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 06:22:07 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on February 09, 2020, 11:45:27 amPenny-wise Pound-foolishness is an internal expense that most managers will never understand. It shows up at all levels of corporate structure. Cheap pens for expensive engineers. Cheap oscilloscopes for expensive projects. Cheap security for expensive buildings.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 08:34:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 09, 2020, 03:27:20 amWhat complete and utter nonsense.That’s just medieval-level chauvinistic justification for lechery. Another way of describing it is victim-blaming the victims of sexual assault.Nobody is saying one can’thavedesires. How oneactsupon desires, on the other hand, is purely a matter of choice.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2020, 08:36:09 pm
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on February 09, 2020, 06:22:07 pmAnd stupid open plan offices that save a few hundred bucks a a month per head on real estate, while producing a 20% drop in productivity on someone who is paid many thousands a month. Absolutely mind bogglingly stupid.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 01:49:57 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on February 09, 2020, 06:22:07 pmOne place I worked wouldn't give me badge access to a lab where some equipment I used semi-regularly to do my job was stored. They said they were concerned that too many people had access to the lab. Well ok, but if you can't trust me not to steal equipment or whatever then why do you still have me working there? Whatever, I just bugged other people to let me in whenever I needed to check out or return stuff.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 01:54:48 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 09, 2020, 08:36:09 pmThey're virtually all like that now, and it's probably more than a 20% drop, at least for people who are coding and doing other things that require concentration. The only reason I'm able to tolerate it is that I can work from home several days a week so that's when I get most of my work done. It's always some non-technical extrovert who decides the open plans are wonderful. They always buy into the BS buzzword "collaboration" too, I've come to hate that word. There are situations where it's helpful to sit around a table and work on something together but the majority of the time everyone puts on headphones and tunes out so they can get work done. Study after study shows that employees hate open layout offices, face to face communication drops and online messaging greatly increases and yet the benefits are still touted as the fad continues to spread. It's a fad like any other, I'm hopeful that eventually someone will reinvent private offices.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 02:19:05 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 10, 2020, 01:54:48 amThe "open layout" problem of not having doors was already identified by the timePeoplewarecame out in 1987. It hasn't gotten any better.As for "collaboration", I present to you the ironically named, "Agile".

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 03:37:28 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 09, 2020, 02:19:44 amFuuuuuuck this.As a man, are you no better than a wild animal? When you are hungry, do you run down the nearest prey animal and devour it raw? If you have to piss in the middle of a meeting do you just whip it out and let loose? No? Why is it that you can control certain instincts, but when a woman wears a low cut shirt suddenly all bets are off? The whole bullshit 'men just can't be expected to control their urges around attractive women' thing is inherently stupid, insulting to men, and worst of all, directly endangers women. It is nothing more than an excuse for bad behavior that should not be tolerated.Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 09, 2020, 03:27:20 amYou know what leads to 'deviant behavior'? A culture where sexual harassment is tolerated, where responsibility for harassment and assault is shifted to the victims, and where peopleare not held accountable for failure to control their 'natural responses'.

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 04:13:12 am
content: Quote from: ajb on February 10, 2020, 03:37:28 amIt is proven experimentally that when men are around pretty/hot women, their intelligence level gets diminished and cannot make accurate judgements. Casinos employing hot women is one of the reasons to exploit this. Are you going to shut down all casinos, because they use this behaviour of men to their advantage? Or tell them to have a less revealing decent dress code.I am not supporting this kind of behaviour, but just stating the facts... somethings are hard wired in human beings to support evolution. Just by artificially creating rules, those hard wiring cannot be undone.

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 04:23:25 am
content: One such experimenthttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4921690.stm

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 05:22:24 am
content: Its cultural and believe different, nor each sides will have common ground, and this argument is going no where.To be honest, sometimes and "personally", I find that certain beautiful women's eyes are sexy.So back to your arguments, I guess you are one of those strong believers that female/womenshouldmust dress like these.Ok, enough, I am out of here.

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 07:14:55 am
content: Discussion closed....

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 02:08:45 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 10, 2020, 01:54:48 am1000% agree with everything you said. It’s strange how no amount of counter evidence seems to stem the flow.And then the move to “hot desking”, where you don’t even get an assigned desk, but instead have to work like a nomad, looking for an empty desk like a student trying to find a free computer in a library... mind bogglingly stupid, when you consider the time wasted on desk setup/teardown every day, not to mention things like how chair adjustment and desk height need to be carefully adjusted for proper ergonomics, and that can’t happen if you’re at a different desk every day.At the web/usability agency I used to work at, my boss was one of those people who could write an email while discussing an unrelated topic with you verbally. She could not wrap her head around my need to focus on one thing at a time, and would barge in with non-urgent BS, breaking my concentration. As if having other people’s conversations around weren’t bad enough...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 02:22:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 10, 2020, 04:13:12 amYou've basically been arguing that men cannot, and should not, control their urges. That’s complete rubbish.Nobody is saying that biology doesn’t influence us, it does. But we also aren’t animals who cannot control themselves in any way. Heck, you can even train many animals in self-control, as the pictures of dogs with bacon on their snouts, waiting patiently until given a command, show us.Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 10, 2020, 07:14:55 amBoo hoo, cry me a river... if you express troglodytic views on sexual harassment, you can’t be surprised if people call you out on it.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 02:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 10, 2020, 02:08:45 pmThere's some people around (like the mother-in-law) that I can phone while browsing the internet or whatever. But don't expect me to remember what she said ...Otherwise fully agree on open office plans and so on. Sometimes my subjectively felt productivity loss due to all these disturbances is 100% (or even more, since sometimes I start to hate all the crap around me at some point).

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 02:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 10, 2020, 02:22:52 pmIn certain areas of the world, I'm afraid this is the caseUnfortunately more and more persons of this belief are being imported to our country here at the moment, with a tragic rise of problemsITS NEVER THE VICTIMS FAULT. PERIOD!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 02:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on February 10, 2020, 02:31:11 pmI’m half Latin American, so I’ve (sadly) had some exposure to cultures that are more chauvinistic than I prefer.But the fact that it’s cultural just proves that the behavior is still something that is taught and learned, as opposed to an insurmountable genetic non-negotiable.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 02:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 10, 2020, 02:35:17 pmTotally agree, it is of course something that is learned, kids mimic their parents (in all parts of the world).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 09:17:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 10, 2020, 04:13:12 amhttps://xkcd.com/231/

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 09:33:48 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 09, 2020, 12:52:38 pm... again... latest entry at CNN ->Outcry over reports of mass assault at New Delhi women's college... "The men barged onto the Gargi College campus in South Delhi last Thursday, on the final day of a school festival, allegedly molesting and sexually assaulting the female studentsen masse..""In Gargi College, the miscreants busted the walls and molested the college girls. Despite such a serious matter, the police and college administration present on the spot have not taken any action yet!"Pretty sure majority of foreigners don't have a clue hows a "norm" situation there.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 11:03:49 am
content: QuoteYou are not stating facts, what you are doing in normalizing and justifying such behavior.If what you said was any small bit true... society would not have any moral or behavioral fabric. There would not be any code of conduct that makes any man / woman behave acceptably. All of us would just resort to our basest animal instincts.Further, the reason those rules came into existence is because some other human being proposed so.. The fact that you (as in a figure of speech) did not come up with those rules does not make them less relevant, applicable or important. They are certainly not artificial or external.As others have repeatedly stated, its not that people are not influenced by biology / likes / wants.. its how they choose to act on it.Just for arguments sake, if the statement above was true, then casinos should be filledonlywith men. lecherous, dangerous, touchy feely men...Menmightcomprise of a rather sizeable percentage of casinos.. but theycertainly are not allof the population.But then again, looking at your comments and posts in this thread, it rather looks like the only common thread among all the misfortunes you have been through is you, yourself. Maybe a long session of introspection is in order...

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 11:13:25 am
content: Well, I do not support any immoral behaviour or acts by men or women. I was just trying to put a scientific explanation to the behaviour. If the posts seem offensive or in bad light, just grab a beer and chill...

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 12:16:56 pm
content: I ll give you a perfectly valid, scientific explanation - "They are being immature assholes". period!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 12:21:07 pm
content: It may be a cultural thing - but you just don't get it.Here's a simple example with a flawed argument:Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 09, 2020, 04:44:22 amThe flaw is very simple - and very obvious. There is no stickiness here unless someone acts stupidly. You are describing twoentirely differentscenarios. Having drinks with a single person is completely, utterly and totally different to a group get together.I was going to spell this out in more detail, but I fear it could be a waste of my efforts. Other members have made statements that make it clear I don't need to clarify anything for their benefit - but you..... You seem to be fishing for validation of your attitudes. I don't know a lot of people around the world, but I do know a few in Australia, NZ, USA, UK, Canada as well as a couple scattered around Europe - and from my interactions with them,noneof them would share your thinking

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 12:26:42 pm
content: I'm out....

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 12:29:19 pm
content: QuoteDefinitely not a cultural thing. I m from india and I dont share his beliefs.Quotesighs in agreement!!!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 12:32:41 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on February 11, 2020, 12:29:19 pmThank you for that clarification.QuoteYes ... a sigh is appropriate.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 01:46:55 pm
content: Trying to get this back on topicRecently a, in my opinion, very odd rule is being enforced in the office...I should preface this with the information that I am in IT. Electronics is only a very (very) small niche of what we are doing. Mainly it is using Arduinos and similar to build cheap environment sensors and stuff like that. But also noteworthy is, that my company has also a large electronics department including pick and place machines and the whole shebang...Anyway, the new rule is: If you are colorblind, you are not allowed to solder anymore. At all. As far as I know, this is a company-wide rule. This does not affect anyone in the IT department, but I have to wonder what blew up due to a soldering errorAre such colorblind rules still common? Are they even allowed anymore?

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 01:57:03 pm
content: Colour blind people may have issues in PCB layout with multilayers. Imagine a 8 layer board and the colours RED and GREEN look the same to him. It may be error prone.But soldering has nothing to do with colour blindness.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 02:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 11, 2020, 01:57:03 pmNot so much these days, but it used to be annoying working next to someone colour blind. Every few minutes a resistor appeared under your nose with the words "what does that say?".

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 02:05:28 pm
content: QuoteResistors... Capacitors... pretty much anything that has color coded identification...

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 02:07:16 pm
content: I really forgot those through hole resistor days. Haven't used them for many years. That would be tricky for a colour blind guy...

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 02:37:54 pm
content: I remember, back in the good 'ol thru hole days, a common mistake was confusing the 15 ohm brown-green-black resistor with a 1 Meg one brown-black-green.Following the above rule, dyslexia impaired people should also not solder boards?

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 02:46:10 pm
content: Nowadays, those blue bodied metal film resistors are not really readable anyway. The contrast on those is so poor that if I use them, I measure them anyways.Regarding other through-hole components, the only other still color coded component that I am aware of, are inductors...I suspect in our case, that the rule comes from making cabling looms. We make custom cabling looms with 20 or more wires...Those are of course tested, but when someone produces too many errors...

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 02:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 11, 2020, 11:13:25 amLearn your history. The same, ill-informed pseudo-scientific explanations have been used throughout history to justify raping, enslaving and killing entire classes of people, even for such wholly superficial attributes as skin color.Churchill for example had some interesting things to say about your people (things that are unfit to quote here, I might add). Would you be so careless as to prove him right?Tim

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 08:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 11, 2020, 01:46:55 pmI would think that the disability authorities would take a very negative view of such a rule. My hunch is that in most developed countries, that’d be illegal, since it’s a disability that can be overcome with reasonable effort (i.e. you can measure a resistor, or use SMD or those fancy Vishay ones with printed values, and tag cables; or you can have someone else do the color-sensitive part of the task). Barring soldering altogether seems kinda nutso to me.Quote from: krish2487 on February 11, 2020, 02:05:28 pmCapacitors?!?Ummm, I don’t think they’ve made color-coded capacitors since something like the 1960s. Resistors and inductors are the only holdouts, and frankly I wish they’d quit it. As much as I enjoy the colorful bands from an aesthetic standpoint, they’re a PITA to use, especially on the dark body colors they use today, as Ranayna said.Of course, one will encounter them in antiques, but that’s not what we are talking about in a production environment.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 10:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 11, 2020, 01:46:55 pmI could see this being the result of having a mixed leaded/lead free workload, if the company has decided to use color coding to identify tools and materials for one versus the other (if you're being really fastidious, you won't mix soldering tips between the two, for example). That sounds like something that could be accommodated by a better choice of color or a different means of identification entirely, but.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 12:51:14 am
content: We also have the 90 day email rule. My company deals with government entities here in the US, we don't provide goods/services to the regular populace. There are all kinds of IP protections, HIPAA regulations, data storage rules, ad nauseum. If there is any info in an email or an attachment I need, I save it either on my encrypted laptop hard drive or encrypted external drive. We even use Aegis drives that require a password entered on the drive case keyboard to unlock and use.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 01:47:00 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 10, 2020, 01:54:48 amThey maysayit promotes collaboration, but the real reason, in almost all cases, is to save money. Open plan layouts are cheaper than cubicles, and cubicles are WAY cheaper than real offices.I hate open plan offices to the extent that I've turned down jobs at places that had them. I find cubicles barely tolerable, but the trend is to make them smaller and smaller and make the height of the partition walls lower and lower. I worked at one place where the cubicles were not much bigger than a phone booth.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:39:44 am
content: It's very short sighted though, it doesn't save money to cheap out on office space if it hurts productivity of expensive engineers. I have met people who love the open layouts but they are artists and admin types who don't need the same sort of focus, I've yet to meet an engineer who likes it.My hope is that working remotely will continue to gain acceptance. With all the tools we have today for collaborating online there is less and less advantage to being in the office every day. I think it should just be a standard perk for anyone whose job doesn't require that is in the office. It boosts productivity and employee satisfaction while being environmentally beneficial. On days I work from home I get an extra 2 hours of time I don't spend on the bus, I can split the difference and give my employer an extra hour of work while giving myself an extra hour of leisure time.

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:50:00 am
content: Enclosed spaces provide for more concentration levels as the amount of visual and sound disturbances are minimised. You could set your own lighting levels as well. I think it comes down to the floor space requirement which comes at a premium. One can have an open office space of 6ft x 6ft and still not feel claustrophobic. But for a dedicated office with closed doors, you may need at least 8ft x 8ft of space, if not more. Almost double the floor space..

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:54:14 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on September 21, 2019, 04:23:06 amNo, there's no contradiction whatsoever. Taken together, they simply imply that male workers must also be prohibited from staying at the office beyond 8pm.Sorry boss, I'd love to help you with tomorrow's presentation to the executives, but it's 8 o'clock and rules are rules.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:56:52 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 12, 2020, 02:50:00 amI don't feel claustrophobic, quite the opposite actually, I feel intense discomfort when I'm out in the open in a big empty space, I'd much prefer to be holed up in a tiny little room. Much the same way cats tend to love those cozy little cubby beds.

author: EEEnthusiast
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 03:10:18 am
content: May be the companies should offer a choice of a dedicated office space vs open office to suit personal needs. After all, the cost to company for the rental space is only a fraction of the salary of engineers.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 06:15:41 am
content: I am sitting in an open space. Our building has several separated floors designed for 30-something people.Most of the time this works adequately well, even though my team (5, including me) sit at the entrance of the floor.It works, because by now, many visual and sound "breaks" have been implemented, and we are generally allowed to use headphones with our own music.But there are some areas where the workers are not allowed to use headphones, "because it looks bad"

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 07:44:30 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 12, 2020, 02:50:00 amDuh, nobody doesn’t understand that open plans are cheaper. Our point is that it’s a false economy to save a few hundred bucks a month on rent, at the expense of a few thousand bucks of productivity (and the employees’ sanity).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 07:47:08 am
content: Quote from: EEEnthusiast on February 12, 2020, 03:10:18 amWhat fantasy land did you work in? LOLVery few people actually want open floor plans for themselves. Heck, you see it all the time that the boss chooses them for everyone — and keeps a private office for themselves, since they “need” it...

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 10:17:15 am
content: QuoteI m sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to THT polyester and/or film capacitors. It was a fairly common occurrence to see capacitors with color bands till a decade ago...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 04:52:05 pm
content: They definitely existed, but they most certainly were not common a decade ago. Or even 3 decades ago. They’d pretty much disappeared by the time I was born, and I just turned 40...

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 05:12:19 pm
content: Some companies, such as Facebook, take open plan offices to the next level. In those companies, you don't even have a dedicated desk. You take whatever desk is available when you're there. I suppose companies do this because they think it saves even more money than open plan offices with dedicated desks for each employee.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 12:38:46 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on February 12, 2020, 05:12:19 pmyyyyyyeah, I brought up hot-desking several days ago inreply #59.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 01:27:57 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 12, 2020, 06:15:41 amA rule I encountered at an employer:No headphones allowed at any time.Rationale: some people turn up the volume so loud they cannot hear the fire alarms (after someone claimed this was the reason they didn't evacuate)

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 01:47:55 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 13, 2020, 01:27:57 amAt a place I worked at once.They said no headphones for safety reasons, and that safety was the /*most*/ important thing.Then they found that productivity dropped, so headphones were allowed again.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 02:23:57 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 12, 2020, 07:44:30 amCompanies do dumb stuff like this routinely.When I worked in TV, I could replace 27" Broadcast monitor CRTs at $1200 "a pop", several times a year, without them turning a hair,& "the biggie", -----------replace the Final tube in an NEC TV Transmitter, at $12,000!*I had to get permission to spend Petty Cash, though!*The PA tube price sounds horrendous, & there were cheaper suppliers, but the Boss ruled them out, due to longevity problems.The ones we used lasted for many thousands of hours.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 03:49:05 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 12, 2020, 07:44:30 amRent is an immediate ongoing expense. Employee's sanity is speculative and someone else's cost anyway; there are plenty of new employees to hire and as a bonus, they cost less.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 03:56:52 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 11, 2020, 12:21:07 pmIt does not matter if someone acts stupidly. In the current climate, an accusation is punitive whether justified or false. For the same reason, I have deliberately avoided any profession which includes children or students. What would I gain by taking such a risk?I would get the door for any colleague but drive a woman home from work because her car died? I would not if I could avoid it.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 03:00:26 pm
content: On the subject of letting employees select open or closed workspaces, based on their need for quiet to concentrate, or whatever worked for them.I was at one point participating in allocation of office space. My experience was that actual need for working conditions was far less important to most employees than the recognition associated with the assignment. In this particular case there were several standardized office layouts, with more square feet for higher grade levels along with other "perks" like bigger desks, more file cabinets and the like. In one case the only difference between one layout and another was a slide out pencil tray added under one of the work surfaces.The ridiculousness was two sided. One one side, that pencil tray could not have cost more than a couple of dollars to make, and even at full retail including installation costs couldn't have been more than $100. So it was ridiculous to not include them everywhere. But at least as ridiculous were the fights that occured over who deserved the tray and who got them.The bottom line is that people are emotional as much or more than they are rational. And this is obvious on decisions and attitudes by both employers and employees.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 06:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 13, 2020, 12:38:46 amTL;DR, but BTW, it's in reply #58 (although your link does point to #58, itsays#59).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 07:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 13, 2020, 03:49:05 amI hope that reply was meant sarcastically.Thousands in lost productivity is also an immediate, ongoing expense.Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on February 13, 2020, 06:17:08 pmMaybe a bug in the forum software, since on my screen, it did, and still does, say #59:

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 08:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 13, 2020, 07:53:36 pmStrange. This is what I see:

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 08:33:59 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 13, 2020, 03:49:05 amThis isn't true in some markets where personnel is in high demand and nearly impossible to replace and yet the open plan persists. It's short term thinking and a red flag a company can't see past the numbers and isn't willing to invest.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 09:08:43 pm
content: So pretty much all public companies and startups. Public companies are all about the next quarter and startups just need to last long enough to either go public or get bought by an existing big public company so the founders can cash out.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 10:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 12, 2020, 07:44:30 amAn employee is just a source of gains to be extracted, like an office space.The "false economy" maximizes shareholder's profit, the floor tiles wear out.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 10:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: Alti on February 13, 2020, 10:23:05 pmNo, that’d be a real economy. It’s a false economy if it actually costs more, which is what happens if you end up reducing productivity by 20%. That more than erases the savings in rent.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 01:27:31 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 13, 2020, 10:25:53 pmAs an engineer Dave always urges to do some back of the napkin calculations to gauge viability of a plan. The cost reward estimate here is straightforward and in almost any western market has very clear results in favour of caring for your employees yet it seems surprisingly rare.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 02:01:07 am
content: Most of the people who make these decisions are not engineers, they're middle and upper management busybodies with no idea what engineers actually do.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 02:03:05 am
content: Yep. Even if they're a hands-on manager who's in the trenches, they'll still do open plan for everyone else because "communication", but maintain a private office for themselves, under the pretense of needing privacy...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 02:07:40 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 14, 2020, 02:01:07 amEven managers should be able to understand employee cost and the value of almost any productivity increase. You can spreadsheet the crap out of that with very appealing lines moving up.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 02:25:20 am
content: Regardless of what they *should* be capable of, they often don't.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 03:02:46 am
content: Some companies have recognized the need for privacy and quiet and have/had private offices for 100% of their technical staff. This includes/included Microsoft, Sun Microsystems, and others.

author: Dundarave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 04:36:38 am
content: Re: Open Plan office space, over the last 20 years I’ve managed a dozen different teams of software developers, and every one of them, when given a choice of cubicles or open plan with long tables, have always wanted the open plan. These are teams of 3 to 12 individuals. In a couple of cases we had to repurpose largish board rooms to accommodate them all together so that the people in the cubes weren’t disturbed.Might be a millennial thing, but for me this has been the case since before 2000! Just a different viewpoint, I guess. Personally, as a boomer manager, I simply can’t function without a door, and consider it a condition of my employment.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2020, 05:13:44 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on February 14, 2020, 03:02:46 amMicrosoft used to have private offices or offices shared by two people but that has been changing. Their newest buildings are all trendy open layouts and they've been remodeling some of the other spaces into that. Some employees are still lucky enough to be in the older buildings that have offices. I'm not aware of any major tech companies that still have most of their staff in private offices, the pendulum is still swinging toward open plans and management types are still touting the BS advantages.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 06:14:06 am
content: Quote from: Dundarave on February 14, 2020, 04:36:38 amI view this a a big cubical or private office, with everyone working on the same task. With true open plan your developers would be working on a large floor, surrounded by the likes of technical support, sales droids and admin creating constant loud noise and other distractions.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 12:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 14, 2020, 02:01:07 amIf a management busybody does not understand what s/he is deciding about, then this is not a concern of an engineer from a cubicle. Employees are not responsible for wasteful decisions of superiors, only the shareholders are.Of course there are always scuckers that can be easily convinced to tame their career expectations (usually because of "difficult situation on the market", or "maybe next year"). I think it is just cheaper to train another (HR management) busybody how to deal with suckers than to get involved in a space arrangement that considers top performance.Quote from: Alti on February 13, 2020, 10:23:05 pm

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 12:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 14, 2020, 05:13:44 amI believe Apple still relies on private offices, since they really value secrecy, and that’s kinda hard in open offices.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 03:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: Dundarave on February 14, 2020, 04:36:38 amIt might also explain why software and human factors engineering has becoming worse.People have not changed so if it is a millennial thing, then it is a fad and they will find out how distractions destroy productivity. Of course these are the same millennials who like chicklet keyboards and screens filled with glare so maybe they will not.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 05:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 16, 2020, 12:35:38 pmApple recently built a huge fancy very expensive new campus. A number of teams have refused to relocate to the new place which was opened with much fanfare because its all open layout. I'll see if I can find the article about it, the place sounded very form over function which mirrors the recent product line.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2020, 06:34:09 pm
content: I remember seeing photos of the private offices in the new campus shortly before move-in. So it's possible that some of it is open-plan, but most definitely not all of it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 01:43:16 am
content: Maybe it's the usual thing where only senior managers have offices? I've never been there.https://www.inc.com/geoffrey-james/apple-employees-hate-apples-5-billion-open-plan-o.html

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 02:49:45 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 17, 2020, 01:43:16 amThat article and the others associated with it were painful to read. At least a dose of I-Told-You-So will make for a nice palliative.The main thing to keep in mind is that as management levels go up, engineering appears to be more and more of a cost-center, like building maintenance and accounting without a clearly identified contribution to the bottom line. Therefore, golfing trips for sales are more beneficial than engineering equipment; fanciful architecture is more important than usable work space.I suppose if one doesn't need any books and nothing more than a computer any random desk will do. Perhaps that fits very well with engineering tasks such as changing the font on a web site, or adjusting the background color. Let's make Agile tasks for those this Sprint and discuss it in the Standup.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2020, 03:49:22 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 17, 2020, 01:43:16 amI dunno, I’ve also never been. I’ve been inside the old Apple HQ (Infinite Loop), and it’s all closed offices, but I haven’t worked for the fruit company in over a decade, so I’m pretty sure my badge won’t work at Apple Park! :p