Help me assess a Fiver watch PCB design  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:29:13 pm
content: Hello guys,I have paid and electronics engineer to help me design a watch idea I have. They have sent me a file as the first stage of the deliverable. But I am not sure how to assess it. Here is the summary of what the final product would do:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cYKVrKaTiYlv27EA4FMYHDopdRYeN1DNI3vMHOJrvIE/edit?usp=sharingHere is what the first deliverable agreed is meant to be (just step one):https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Q8vI-XPzFkW_RG7NqzGzUjrG3ljgJoVN4SitWx5UKQ/edit?usp=sharingI have attached what the person who is doing the project has sent me as sent me as the deliverable for step one, and I would like to know what exactly this is and what it proves or has solved. Any help would be much appreciated. He says "Use altium designer to open it". He also sent me the image of the file on a computer, and said it is proof!!!?Thank you,Michael

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:58:44 pm
content: DM if you are interested in a review. My rates are £950/day.

author: robert.rozee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:07:47 pm
content: hi Michael,i'm not sure if this is a 'smart watch' of some kind, or just a tally counter. nonetheless, the dollar amounts for each of the stages and the time allowed seems to be a fraction of what i would expect to see for a commercial product development.might i suggest that you initially have someone develop the device just as an application that runs on a tablet or smart phone. given that the user-input is viajust3 buttons, this is something that would come closer to your budgetary constraints while demonstrating much of the functionality - that is counters that are incremented by the user, decremented by timers over days and weeks, and some limited text messages delivered on-screen. in essence, a variation of the 'tamagotchi' electronic toys that were popular some 20 years ago.are you able to describe in more detail what you wish the finished device is to be used for? this may be helpful in suggesting the best way for you to move your project forward.cheers,rob :-)

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:26:56 pm
content: I'm curious - what has your engineer done except change the pcb text fromthisgithub project?

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:29:08 pm
content: The files you received are gerbers. You can use pretty much any gerber viewer to open those, it does not need to be Altium.As for outsourcing work to Pakistan... well... you get what you pay for.Out to curiosity, I once tried sourcing out some menial embedded programming tasks to fiverr, just to see what comes out of it. Tried contacting no less than 5 "engineers" and getting them to understand a simple problem was already proving difficult. Ended up scrapping the whole idea and doing the task myself, in considerably less time than the interactions with those guys took.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 02:14:51 pm
content: Michael -- your "specifications" on that project are extremely loose, and yet your contractor has managed to give you something which has nothing to do with those specs. As pointed out by nali, he has just taken an existing design and put his name on it. He probably spent 10 minutes searching and two minutes editing.I'd suggest you cut your losses and stop any further collaboration with that Fiverr contractor. Since your own experience in the field is apparently very limited, you will need someone much more qualified, who takes a much more active role in the project. Expect to increase your budget estimates by at least two orders of magnitude too.

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 02:23:23 pm
content: Hi Rob,Thank you so much for your insightful message; it’s very much appreciated.I’ve updated the watch document to simplify the design—removing the need for extra buttons or a touchscreen. Instead, the existing buttons will switch between two modes, keeping the functionality streamlined.The concept for this watch is to be as basic as possible, intentionally not a smartwatch. I want it to embody simplicity. In fact, I came across an open-source watch called Watchy by SQFMI, which seems like it could be a good fit with just a bit of reprogramming for the buttons.The watch’s purpose is to be a habit changer and tracker. Imagine wanting to encourage yourself to develop positive habits or reduce negative, impulsive ones. For example, one challenge I face is the urge to operate my phone while driving to change music on YouTube. Whenever I resist that impulse, I want to reward myself by pressing a button on the watch, marking that positive choice. I believe that having a simple, barrier-free accountability tracker that’s always a click away will help me build more control over my impulses.Similarly, I could use the watch to motivate myself to avoid eating chocolates. Instead of getting a dopamine hit from sugar, I’d get it from rewarding myself with a point on my watch. The idea is to make self-improvement easy, practical, and woven into everyday actions—without the usual buzzwords and hype.Thank you,Mike

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 02:33:57 pm
content: Hi Nali,wow, this is ridiculous! Thank you for this. I would have easily wasted hours with this guys who have already been about 2 weeks late. Thank you again

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 02:35:39 pm
content: Thank you for this. 100% let me terminate it. I think they are just trying to take advantage.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:48:12 pm
content: Read everything again. I think you got it the wrong way round. You're trying to take advantage of people and they are giving you the value you paid for i.e. a kick in the balls to see if you are stupid enough to give them money.What you are asking is insulting, utterly stupid, totally wildly unrealistic and crack smoking, even if you add a couple of zeroes on the end of each of the numbers you quote. And the timescale are equally as nuts.When someone comes to me with zero technical knowledge or experience, which is evident, and tells me that they think my time is worth $200 to solve a problem and describes the problem, I will most likely tell them to fuck off, because that's not how it works I'm afraid and you need to realise that.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 08:01:23 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 06, 2024, 07:48:12 pmActually having now read the deliverables doc I'm inclined to agree. $200 for PCB and "full firmware development"? A little bit on the optimistic side shall we say

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 08:20:23 pm
content: Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective.It seems there may have been a misunderstanding regarding my post. I did not make an offer of $200; actually, I was offered $1,000 to create 10 prototypes. I broke the problem down into smaller steps to ensure clarity and to proceed cautiously.My intention was to double-check the work I’ve received from a contractor, not to solicit quotes or undervalue anyone’s expertise. I greatly respect the knowledge within this community and am here to learn and better understand the field.I appreciate any constructive feedback you or others might have.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 08:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: ppyxmw on October 06, 2024, 08:20:23 pmDamn. If it's too good to be true, it probably is. $1k is about 3-4hrs or a EE consultant work, not incl. any money spent on the actual materials and assembly.

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 08:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: uer166 on October 06, 2024, 08:30:20 pmNow I know.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:10:04 pm
content: Quote from: ppyxmw on October 06, 2024, 12:29:13 pmQuote$200 for a basically a complete design with schematic, PCB, BOM etc, are you serious?No wonder you got scammed by someone just taking a github PCB watch and changing the name.Absolutely no one is going to touch this project for that kind of money, you are orders of magnitude off.It seems that project that got copied was developed on this forum:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/diy-watch-based-on-the-casio-f-91w/https://github.com/carrotIndustries/pluto

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2024, 11:10:04 pmAnd firmware. And the thing includes NFC. And the job includes simulations and mechanical sketches as well.Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2024, 11:10:04 pmYes. But it's the hallmark of these "freelancing" platforms. Most people go there to get the cheapest labor possible, with few exceptions. And even in a low-income country, $200 for such a project is a joke.With all the electronics design + firmware, even for an experienced engineer having done similar projects before, that would probably amount to at least a hundred hours of work, if everything was completely original. So that would be about $2/hour, remove the platform fees and taxes, and yeah. Who's gonna work for that? And 100 hours, that would be someone ultra-efficient with previous experience with watches, and that's still probably way underestimated. But just to give some perspective. 100 hours is basically 2.5 weeks of 9-5 work. What kind of engineer would commit to designing this, again firmware included, in just 2.5 weeks, and paid $2/hour? That's nuts. Who here would? Curious.That's for the perspective. I understand that the advent of these platforms has enabled (to a more or less successful degree, often less than more) very small businesses and even individuals to get access to work resources they would otherwise never have. And there are many people willing to take advantage of this and scam them.Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2024, 11:10:04 pmGood find.Unfortunately, at that price, is that really a scam? After all, nobody prevents you from re-using open-source projects and sell your services around them. $200 may be an acceptable price for someone in a low-income country to customize an open-source project and help them get it to production. It may even not be all that much, even just for that. Of course, if the "customization" is just changing a few names here and there, that's a bit exaggerated.It infringes copyright though if proper credit and the OSHW logo are not provided, and becomes fraudulent if this information is omitted (as it's not only a lie, it could also get the client in trouble).

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 02:00:54 am
content: super insightful.I originally tried to just get watches on Alibaba with some custom firmware. I am glad for all comments. It's a hobby project but won't happen with hobby prices

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 02:23:01 am
content: The way hobby projects work is that *you* do the work. And you don't charge for it because you are doing it for yourself for fun.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 03:19:00 am
content: Quote from: ppyxmw on October 07, 2024, 02:00:54 amWell, that'll be a lesson learned.But now that we know it's a hobby project, going from an existing open-source design such as this one may not be a bad idea. Now that you have the reference of this project, you could do some of the work yourself for any modifications you'd like (for what you are able to do) and possibly use one of these platforms for the modifications you can't do, but with very clear, and smallish tasks.First check that this Pluto project fits most of your requirements. You have the link(s). Read about it, read about the issues, what people say about it, etc.Once you're more familiar with it, you could list the specific changes you'd like and pay someone to do them. If the tasks are well defined and relatively small, then the cost would be reasonable and you could use one of these platforms, provided all things are very clear and again, the tasks are small and well defined.The EDA is KiCad, which is open source and freely downloadable, so download it first, download the repo for the Pluto project, open it in KiCad, have a look. Get familiar with the design. That's what I would suggest first.If again this project looks interesting to you, you could consider having one board manufactured (via JLCPCB for instance, which is pretty cheap), test it as is, and that would help you see what kind of changes you'd really like. In any case, since (from what I get) what you mainly wanted was customizable firmware, you would have that. Then if you don't know how to make the changes yourself, that's something you could ask a freelancer for a reasonable cost.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:20:16 am
content: Well there we goRegarding the online freelancing platforms as mentioned before, most of the advertisers on them know the market. And the market is people after a unicorn. It is however dead easy to demand half up front by bank transfer, deliver nothing and pop up again later with a different identity.

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 08:10:25 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 07, 2024, 03:19:00 amThat is amazing advice, thank you. Yes, the other option I think looks pretty cool compared to Pluto is Watchy, which is also open source.https://watchy.sqfmi.com/Thank you again

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 08:13:46 am
content: I haven't paid anything yet, it is just through fiver for the first stage, so it is okay. I can just get a refund. Also using chatGPT to structure the deliverables meant it asked for too much. Anyway, this just makes me wanna get back into electronics like 25yrs ago, it was a favourite class.

author: Salitronic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 10:37:48 am
content: Quote from: ppyxmw on October 06, 2024, 08:20:23 pmI feel sorry for the OP having had this bad experience and it is not my intention to criticize him but as a professional freelance engineer for many years the quote above holds 2 of the main frustrations (and reasons to decline my interest in projects) that I've had to face on countless occasions:1. Clients expecting to receive the latest and greatest, manufacturing-ready design for little more than a week's worth of grocery.2. Clients thinking they know how to break down the project in reasonable steps without having any clue on the effort required for each of those steps.The first deliverable alone requires the following efforts:- Design planning / part selection.- Schematic design (strongly optimizing for power consumption).- Near-final mechanical design is required as otherwise you cannot define the placement of display, buttons, NFC antenna, battery,.. in relation to the PCB.- PCB design in a compact space with the mechanical constraints.- Design and tuning of an NFC antenna within that compact space - not trivial.- Design of a custom LCD display (requiring back and forth with supplier and test samples).- Design of various mechanical features to hold the battery, zebra strip for the display, backlighting...- Full firmware development which will need to include a non-trivial and typically lengthy power consumption optimization exercise.- Simulation - which is not even relevant for a project of this type, with the exception of the NFC antenna modelling perhaps.This list is just scratching the surface, how anyone can think that all of that can be achieved in 2 weeks for $200 (gross) is beyond my understanding.I sometimes tell my clients: Do you realize that after the prototyping phase you'll need to spend at least $10-30k to get it through regulatory certification, another $10-50k for injection molds, multiple thousands for production costs, more thousands for marketing, distribution and shipping? It only takes a single undetected hardware issue in the design to make all of those expenses useless and you might even end up with lawsuits for burning someone's home down. Why are you trying to go cheap on the design itself when this is the most important part for the entire project?Unfortunately there are many scammers in this business that portray themself as expert freelancers and accept complex projects for a couple hundred dollars only to return garbage work. No professional engineer who has invested many thousands in test equipment, who routinely pays software tool license fees and is skilled enough to sustain a freelancing business in this industry will waste his time to read the specs document for that kind of money, let alone work on it.

author: ppyxmw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 11:06:18 am
content: Quote from: Salitronic on October 07, 2024, 10:37:48 amToo true, that makes sense. I have decided to just get the Watchy opensource. I will then go to a MakeSpace and tinker and learn and test it out over time.