getting vintage keyboard working on mordern computer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: morrysillusion
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 04:42:50 am
content: i feel like this question is a bit too specific in this forum but i wanted to preface this as being a beginner, as it will be a bit tough for me to understand a lot of things. but i am very much looking for whatever information that can be had on this, even if i need to learn a bit more about it!i have an old keyboard-- a grass valley editware k2 keyboard (which model exactly, cant find any numbers)-- which is overall in great condition. however i would really love to get it working, just the simplest parts of it, not caring to focus on the knob or anything. this thing has a DE-9 port however (male) and i cannot for the life of me even find a pc that i have (i have numerous old ones) that would let me plug this in. and of course i had some basic usb conversion cable but that doesnt work.so i am wondering if its even possible to get this working? what kinda steps would i need to take if I can?

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 06:01:17 am
content: Was that you who started a Reddit thread on this keyboard? Hope you get some answers. It could be that it plugs into a bespoke expansion card for a PC so the protocol might be specific. Maybe open it up to see what chips are used?Have to say the keys are colourful and cool. Maybe you could use the keycaps on another keyboard.

author: morrysillusion
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 06:21:14 am
content: ha! yes it was. wanted to post here too just to see if i could get any second opinions! the person who commented on r/vintagekeyboards was very helpful!! but just wanted to see if anyone else had other suggestions too.ill take a look and get some pics of the inside, opened it up but put it back together because that knob stopped me-- the screws are worn down too much to get it out... but ill open it up again soon.the keycaps are really neat-- absolutely love the look. if i cant get it working im going to see if i can suit it to something modern for sure.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 06:44:56 am
content: Any idea what sort of machine it was meant for?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 06:47:53 am
content: The 9-pin connector is almost certainly an RS-422 slave port, using the industry standardSony 9-pin protocol.A simple option is to use an USB to bidirectional RS-422 adapter, for example the FTDI USB-RS422-PCBA or USB-RS422-WE-1800-BT (that you can buy from e.g. Mouser). This will appear as a serial port on your computer, so you'll also need an application (or "driver") to convert the serial port messages into UI events. In Linux, this is near-trivial to do using uinput at the kernel level, in which case it works in all applications (both GUI and console).What I personally would do, is open up the keyboard, and see what's inside, using an oscilloscope or a logic analyzer. I'd probably end up using a MAX33045EASA+ RS-422 transceiver chip (to interface to a standard UART on a microcontroller) and a Teensy 4.0 microcontroller, exposing a native USB HID interface, turning the keyboard into a programmable multimedia keyboard that works with any computer without any drivers at all. (Note that on some computers with USB 3.0 ports, you may need to use an USB 2 hub with most/all USB microcontrollers, for the computer to correctly detect USB 2 microcontrollers. I haven't encountered this personally with Teensy 4, which is USB 2 (max. 480 Mbit/s), but I do have seen it with earlier Teensies and other USB 1.1 microcontrollers.)(WhyTeensy 4and not some cheaper microcontroller, like a Blue Pill? The RS-422 bus can work at up to 10 Mbit/s, and is at the limit what microcontrollers with cheaper USB 1.1 Full Speed (12 Mbit/s, but that includes USB overhead) microcontrollers can do. Teensy are easy to program in Arduino using the Teensyduino add-on, and even a simple continuous test writing to USB Serial exceeds 200 Mbit/s, so Iknowit can handle this. Furthermore, its UARTs all have FIFOs (buffers), and can be clocked at up to 20 Mbit/s (changing the clock source; the default clock source tops at 6 Mbit/s). Thus, Iknowit can handle RS-422. Finally, Teensyduino supports USB HID out of the box, so it is the simplest option to map the RS-422 information from the keyboard, into USB HID format current computers –– Windows, Mac, Linux –– can understand without any drivers or operating system support.)What I suggest you do, however, is carefully open the keyboard. It is likely screwed together from the bottom (the screw heads are often behind the rubber bumpers), and clipped together, so careful examination and using a wide thin steel spudger is in order. (A flat screwdriver often mars the plastic at the seam.)Take pictures, and see if you can read the text in any IC's with at least 8 legs or the size of your fingernail if no legs are visible. Post the pictures here, naming any significant chips you can see, and I and others can help you suggest alternatives on how to go forwards from there.What I suggested above keeps the original functionality, and you can even use a DB-9 female connector to make your own custom RS-422 keyboard to USB HID converter board (using Teensy 4 and high-speed RS-422 transceiver chip). Some logic analysis or oscilloscoping is likely needed to find out the baud rate and format of the logic level signals – RS-422 electrically differs from RS-232, but with a transceiver can be interfaced to a standard high-speed UART –; then the format of the messages the keyboard provides when keys are pressed can be easily discovered. If you like the idea of not modifying such an original equipment, for example if it has history you want to keep intact, then that, or the existing USB-to-RS422-adapter approach is likely best for you.Another approach some have used is to rip out the RS-422 transceiver part, sometimes even the microcontroller on the keyboard itself so only the key matrix is left, and irrevocably modify the keyboard electronics themselves, replacing them with an easily programmed microcontroller. Such a conversion is usually irreversible, but can be easier to do successfully because it involves much less reverse engineering. Any microcontroller with native USB interface (or Bluetooth, if you prefer a wireless connection) with sufficient number of I/Os to interface to the key matrix will work, as long as the button matrix logic level is chosen to work with the microcontroller as well. (Here, it is a good idea to remember that USB Full Speed -limited microcontrollers – most of them! – may need that USB hub between them and the host, so integrating e.g. a cable hub inside the keyboard can help with both connection issues to certain USB 3 ports, but make it easier for the user to use e.g. USB memory sticks, and/or other external controllers like jog wheels.)Apologies for the wall of text. I'm known for my verbosity; I'm trying to learn to be more concise.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 10:01:42 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 31, 2023, 06:44:56 amGrass Valley Editware.Grass Valley is a company specializing in video production, especially real-time/live stuff.Editware spun off from Grass Valley back in 1996, so this thing predates that. Looks like that was the nonlinear editing (post production editing as we know it today) division. They’re still around, too, and by the looks of the website, I bet they’re a small company. Maybe they’d actually have the info OP needs…

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 10:32:40 am
content: RS-232 keyboards were common in 80s/early 90s, usually running at 9600 baud.I'd try with a Serial-to-USB (active) adapter. You might need a Null Modem as well.Cheers.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 11:18:28 am
content: Nope. Broadcast equipment was pretty much standardized around RS-422A, not RS-232, with players and recorders controlled using the same protocol, with the Sony 9-pin DB9 connector I linked to above being the industry standard. I'd be surprised out of my pants if that DE-9 connector was RS-232 and not RS-422A. I bet the format is 38400 baud, 8 data bits, odd parity, and one stop bit, too; based onthis.Grass Valley K2 Summit is explicitly documented as using RS-422, too.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 11:48:56 am
content: You can have converter from USB to RS422 also. The problem is that it seems to me that the RS422 doesn't have a standard pin out. I have many equipment with RS-422 but the pinout are all different.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 12:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: morrysillusion on August 31, 2023, 04:42:50 amHello,My question is what you intend to do with this thing if you get it connected and working to a regular computer.Do you intend to use it as a regular keyboard, because i don't think that would work.Or do you intend to use it for some sort of video editing or running a video or something like that.It's a cool looking thing but the keys are marked with specific functions so I don't see it being used for a general purpose keyboard.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 01:21:45 pm
content: Seems to have right number of keys and roughly the usual layout, who gives rat's ass what the markings are as long as they are colorful and look nice?(That being said, I hate this kind of ENTER, so nope, I wouldn't).

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 05:02:45 pm
content: Some clues/breadcrumbs as to what this VPE Video Production Editor keyboard was used for and why:https://web.archive.org/web/20010223161148fw_/http://www.editware.com/2000brochure.htmlhttps://web.archive.org/web/20000525124636/http://www.editware.com/editware.htmlhttps://web.archive.org/web/20000609065206fw_/http://www.editware.com/Editware-DOCs/DPEinstall.pdfPIN OUTS...https://web.archive.org/web/20000612022608fw_/http://www.editware.com/cablepins.html

author: morrysillusion
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 06:30:28 pm
content: Quotehonestly getting any kind of output of letters would be the goal. i dont think you can see but there are normal letters on every key. its qwerty. it functioned as a normal keyboard for typing along aside having the hotkeys to edit. so i dont expect that to be an issue. the very top rows seem to be unique though.To the rest of the replies in this thread-- boy, that yall so much, this is a lot to read and ill catch up and see what stuff i can do asap.Quotei apologize but the forum keeps saying my files are too large, even though i made sure they are not. i was going to insert them from the imgur image links but theyre massive in appearance here and couldnt get em smaller so, i will simply link off site.. hopefully thats ok...!https://imgur.com/a/SZNNJPZThe full board:top left, chips etc. far right, power cable. bottom left, the knob/wheel.The upper part is turned for better reading.The list what i can read for those black chips: (generally going bottom up and left to right)(AJ) P9252 - MM74hc132N - mMC74HC132N(thailand) lm319n - flv8091 - 9236vj(AB) M9312 - LM13700AN (theres two)MAXIM 305B - MAX634CPA (? hard to read this, can check again)M31BA - LF - 353N (theres two)some of the other surface details here are added there for clarity.And sadly i noticed one small bit of damage i failed to notice the last time i opened it (should be photo 4)very last one is the cable port. in case it wasn't clear, it is a maleanything else, i can get more photos!Quoteit certainly would be neat to keep this 100% original, so ill be going for whatever i can until it seems i have exhausted all my options and they dont work lol.... i will definitely look into this adapter, now that i know it is RS422 that i should use!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 07:20:13 pm
content: There seems to be additional chips on the large board on the same side as the key switches, including the main processor/microcontroller, of which you don't have any pictures yet.

author: morrysillusion
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 08:18:34 pm
content: sorry, was confused- are you saying it would be from the front side, not the underside? ive been having trouble with getting the entire thing separate, that knob is holding it all in (and i cant seem to find any way to pop it off from the front, just that panel on the back with the screws.) if that is the case, it may take me a hot minute. the screws are very worn down and/or very tight.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2023, 09:17:11 pm
content: I think the best way to use it is to make usb adapter for it on some cheap STM32 module like bluepill. But it needs to write translator software for STM32 module.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2023, 02:38:53 am
content: "Mechanical Keyboards" are a quite popular DIY project for a lot of hobbyists. And as a result you can find ready made source code for a lot of different microcontroller families that do the matrix scanning and translate it to USB. You can find source code on github and other VCS sites, and you can also buy parts (keys, frames, housings, PCB's, etc).https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mechanical+keyboard&ia=webAnd as you already have the box with buttons, you only have to add a microcontroller, decode your keyboard matrix and put it in that microcontroller.

author: morrysillusion
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 01, 2023, 03:04:35 am
content: my main issue currently as well if in terms of actually finding a RS422 to USB.... i cannot find one with a female end like at all. not sure i am misunderstanding everything i am seeing? as some of this looks completely foreign to me. these are generally the only results i am getting when i search for RS422 to USBhttps://t.ly/Zadvs

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2023, 03:08:08 am
content: Quote from: morrysillusion on August 31, 2023, 06:30:28 pmHello again,I don't see some keys that a regular keyboard has such as "del","tab", "CAPS", etc., but we don't know what the "FR" key does yet.A more important question, if nobody asked yet, is how many wires are in the cable?This is not how many prongs are on the connector if there is one, but how many in the cable once you open it up and count them.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2023, 05:03:41 am
content: Looks like it has around 90 keys, which is adequate for use as a regular PC keyboard. As others have said, figuring out the protocol and scan codes should be your next step, which will enable making a converter to PS/2 or USB.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2023, 06:17:04 am
content: Quote from: morrysillusion on September 01, 2023, 03:04:35 amUSB-RS422-PCBA FTDI USB-to-RS422 adapter(link to Mouser)Adafruit 3122 DE-9 female connector with terminal block(link to Mouser)Solder short wires between the two, using theslave side of the Sony 9-pin protocol(right column); it is the same pinout as AndyBeez linked to.If the keyboard does not have a separate power supply, pin 5 on the DE-9 is the +12V supply for the keyboard. An example of a suitable 5V to 12V step-up DC-DC converter module not needing additional components isMPS mEZD41501A-B(link to Mouser). You should pick up the 5V from pin 1 of U2 or U3 (8-pin ICs) on the adapter (because this way the keyboard is powered down when the RS422 is powered down), ground from anywhere on the adapter, and 12V output going to pin 5 of the DE-9 female connector.First try the most likely protocol: 38400 baud, eight data bits, odd parity, 1 stop bit, with theDVR-2000/2100 data protocolAnd yes, I did mean the main processor is on the other side of the large board in the keyboard. But the above should get the keyboard to communicate with your computer. From there on, it is a matter of creating a program or a driver that communicates with the keyboard, and generates the multimedia keyboard events –– almost all the keys on the keyboard have USB HID multimedia keyboard equivalents –– for other applications on the same computer.The alternative, using something like Teensy 4 (or Bluepill, which may or may not suffice for this; I only know Teensy 4will), is to use RS-422 transceivers to connect to one of the UARTs on the microcontroller, and do the translation to USB HID on the microcontroller instead. That way the keyboard will look like a standard keyboard + multimedia keyboard combination to any OS, when connected via USB, without needing any drivers or applications to run on that OS.Of course, both are possible. If spending the USD/EUR 40-50 for the FTDI USB-RS422 adapter is not an issue, I would start with that one anyway.As an alternative to the MPS supply module, you could start with a class II isolated programmable supply (any supply you can connect the negative side to USB ground without causing a ground current loop; class II being the safe option here) or wall wart to power the keyboard. You could also use a multimeter to trace the 12V signal (from pin 5 on the DE-9 connector), to make sure it is indeed the power supply pin, so that the pinout is correct. It should be, but I still suggest verifying it before assuming it is.