Inkjet laser alternative - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 05:11:07 pm
content: My partner currently uses a rubber stamp (which I laser engrave) to 'sign' her work. The usual alternative is a laser engraver (the work is wood of some form), but this isn't a preferred option for various reasons. The rubber stamp is fine, except that I have to make a new one every year...So, I am thinking in terms of a hand-held inkjet head. The output area is less that 15mm x 15mm so my preferred option would be for a head of that size or larger. A smaller head panned across the work would be an option, though prone to distortion. Locating the output on the piece would be trickier, but not impossible (if necessary a starting line could be temporarily placed).Anyone know if something like this is already available or being worked on? Or reasons it would be a massive waste of time?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 05:39:35 pm
content: From what I've seen most woodworkers use a metal brand that they heat with a blowtorch and just burn the signature into the wood.There is no way you will find 15x15 mm ink jet with good enough resolution. There are those print heads that are used to put expiration dates on milk jugs, but they don't have nearly enough resolution. And I have no idea if you can get one for a reasonable price.And even for the rubber stamp, once a year does not sound too bad if the process for making them is known. And you can order them too, which may end up being more economical over a long time.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 06:15:31 pm
content: Yes, the metal ones were the first choice, but they tend to be fixed patterns and not custom. The rubber ones tend not to have the small features necessary (unsurprisingly). And one problem with all of them is that they are fixed - you can't have a slightly different one for a one-off.Just bouncing ideas at the moment

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 06:29:58 pm
content: https://spritesmods.com/?art=inkerhttps://spritesmods.com/?art=magicbrush

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 06:29:58 pm
content: There are off the shelf hand help printers if this is what you are looking for. For example,https://youtu.be/H70By9tGimA?si=CejHKDaEe9tatClw&t=368

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 06:30:56 pm
content: Something like Selpic P1 should do the job. However if you need to stamp just a single thing, it makes way more sense to order a lifetime supply of stamps. You can get quite a bit of those for the price of handheld printer.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 06:31:54 pm
content: I've got curious if you can actually buy those industrial ink jet heads. And it looks like a lot of vendors you would expect (Ricoh, Fuji, Konica Minolta) make them, but none advertise the price. The only one I could find on eBay is some mid-range Ricoh head for like 800 euro.They are available with really high DPI (up to 600) and with wide line of jets, but it is still most likely not practical. And I doubt you will find any documentation on how to drive them.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 07:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 09, 2023, 05:39:35 pmYour info iswayout of date… Have you not noticed that more and more products have high-resolution expiration dates nowadays?A ton of industrial inkjets are now based on HP’s “TIJ 2.5” (thermal inkjet) platform, which is basically all built around the HP 45A (51645A) inkjet cartridge. It’s a 1/2” (12.7mm) 600dpi head. Seewww.hp.com/oeminkjetThey also more recently released a 1200dpi head with a 22mm print width, the 2040. (See same link.)Of course, I very much doubt this stuff is affordable enough for a one-off project like this one. (And whether HP will provide the developer info and sell the parts to an individual is another question…) It certainly wouldn’t make sense to develop it.Oh, I see that you replied afterwards:Quote from: ataradov on September 09, 2023, 06:31:54 pmYeah, it wouldn’t make any sense.I 100% agree with your suggestion to make a new stamp once a year.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 08:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 09, 2023, 06:30:56 pmHammer/nail thing, perhaps. We do a single thing because we can only do a single thing. Being able to do anything you wantright there and thencould be very attractive.The Selpic is nearly reasonably priced, at least compared to the others!Quote from: AmykYes! Exactly that! Gosh, I seem to be a bit later to this party, as usual.Quote from: zaptaThanks! I would buy one in a flash if it were $2000 cheaper

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 08:36:55 pm
content: Selpic P1 looks great. The only issue is that they are out of stock on the ink, and there are no second sources. So, unless it is a very temporary out of stock, it might turn into a useless junk after the ink runs out.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 08:54:55 pm
content: Yes, the replenishments are a stumbling block with these. Maybe they're taking lessons from HP and Dymo.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 09:43:06 pm
content: > Thanks! I would buy one in a flash if it were $2000 cheaperThey come in a wide range of prices. E.g.https://www.amazon.com/Phezer-P15-Handheld-Production-Languages/dp/B0BJVNJZS9But if you need to stamp a fixed content, stamp is the way to go.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 03:20:09 am
content: You might look into a decal or transfer process. I have marked would projects with some success doing toner transfer ala the old home brew PCB technique. Inkjet decal paper is available. Also, the t-shirt transfers offer some possibilities. Would allow easy customization such as serialization.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 09:04:08 am
content: FMCG inkjet is normally continuous ink print, using eg Domino A200 (got a scrap one, still working, to rip apart, as it was taken by my local inkjet supplier as trade in on a Lynx printer, and they gave it to me for free), Lynx or others, which print using a droplet generator that is electrostatically deflected to either return the droplets to a gutter, or to aim them into a specific angle, and the container goes past at a constant rate, so it rasterises a code onto it using a set of dots for vertical, and the motion for horizontal. Normally up to 50 dots vertically, and no real limit (memory limit only)for the length, and it will work to print on almost anything. Print head is normally remote, though some are integrated into the machine, but all need the surface to move, either using fixed time to handle the horizontal image generation, or with a rotary encoder to provide the needed pulses for position. Ink is normally black or white, and there are food grade versions as well, that are classed as edible, and you can order coloured inks as well, though the range is very limited, and CMYK print is not easy, unless you use 4 printers and slave them together.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 10:56:00 am
content: Quote from: zapta on September 09, 2023, 09:43:06 pmThat is getting close to an unavoidable purchaseStamps are OK but not perfect, and fine detail can easily be lost (if it can make it onto the stamp in the first place).Amazon UK are much more expensive, cheapest being £199. But I now see how it works and, unfortunately, it wouldn't be suitable. The photo shows the reason: rollers, and quite a distance from the print output. Think of a bowl about 70mm diameter with slightly protruding base. The base might even have a recess, and the mark would need to go in there. Or the target surface may be on something like a pestle.Having said that, I wonder how close the surface has to be to that printer. Perhaps a kind of mask with a cutout for pushing the target surface up against it could be used - the printer would be run across the mask. 'Course, wouldn't work for recessed surfaces. Hmmm.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 10:57:19 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 10, 2023, 03:20:09 amThanks, hadn't considered that. Often, the surface to be marked is curved a bit - would they be a problem with that, do you know?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 11:00:10 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 10, 2023, 09:04:08 amSounds like it could get messy at the slighted provocationSingle colour is fine although, obviously, multiple colours would definitely find a use (and then condemn me to having to provide same forever).

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 11:39:59 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on September 09, 2023, 06:15:31 pmWhy not just pay someone some money to make you a custom metal die?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 12:09:39 pm
content: Because they don't do custom metal dies of the right size at an affordable price. There is also some element of suck it and see, which could get really tedious.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 12:26:52 pm
content: The first hit on google is 50 Euro for a custom brass stamp with handle.If you've got an extremely steady hand, there's always the dremel.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 01:21:45 pm
content: How about 3D print a stamp? Even if it doesn't last as long, it would be cheap to just print another one.Or maybe make a stencil? Might even be possible to use UVC to "sunburn" the wood but I doubt it will be as economical as just using a little paint.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 04:46:44 pm
content: Metal stencils (either laser cut yourself, or order them as PCB stencils from JLCPBC) and a small blow torch? Stencil and ink or paint?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 05:59:23 pm
content: Hmmm. Post didn't get posted for some reason. Appols if this is a dupe...Quote from: Marco on September 10, 2023, 12:26:52 pmHmmm. Might try one and see what happens. But €50 is €50. I was after something that might have a higher up-front cost but wouldn't keep draining the tank. Currently, the laser setup cost rather more but it is a sunk cost (and can be used for other things).Edit: I forgot to say that the current design uses two stamps: normal and inverse. Depends on the job as to which is best, so although €50 is borderline bearable, €100 is pushing it.OTOH, burning a mark is a bit more permanent.Quote from: NiHaoMikeToo hard, I think. Do they do neoprene-type filament?Quote from: tookiNow there's a though! Shove a decent current through and it's self-heating. But I think it would fail on the fine detail, and the large areas may not have enough thermal inertia to make a mark without splotching.We are talking ink (except for burn marks). I tried the stuff that you let dry then heat and which then burns where it is spread (ammonium chloride). Very unsuccessful.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 06:06:12 pm
content: Well my thinking was to use the stencil as a heat shield, with the blow torch flame charring the wood through the apertures.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 08:01:02 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on September 10, 2023, 11:00:10 amFlat is easiest. Curved surfaces depend on both shape and degree of curve. Slight curves are fine. One dimension curve (cylinder) isn't much problem. 2D concave curves are basically impossible for toner transfer and some decals. Ones with some stretch in the substrate can work, but always take some learning.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 08:47:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 10, 2023, 06:06:12 pmAh, doubt if it would work because of the feature size (tiny bits of PCB would burn up quickly). And the need to have support pieces to stop, for instance, the middle of 'O' falling out.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 08:50:51 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 10, 2023, 08:01:02 pmCan't guarantee dead flat, but it would obviously be good enough for a rubber stamp (i.e. pretty close). It would be cool to not have to bother about that, though.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 09:57:38 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on September 10, 2023, 10:56:00 amI don't know if this is a practical solution for your use case but interesting never the less.https://youtu.be/_Rel1j4ZxPc?si=KucrXqN28NPiDnYF&t=99

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 11:14:54 pm
content: Oh, I wish! Wonder what the flexy stuff is made from.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 11:19:55 pm
content: I don't know but maybe some thick liquid. I saw many videos with that technique so widely use. Another technique that require lower initial investment is hydrographing, with of the shelf or custom patterns.https://youtu.be/wwz1K9qfdKE?si=xfE6pQEhzvqfN-se&t=650

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2023, 11:35:59 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on September 10, 2023, 08:47:00 pmUmmm… by PCB stencils I mean the stainless steel stencils normally used for applying solder paste. That’s not gonna burn up in a regular blow torch anytime soon.The supports for letter parts are no big deal, they can be fairly thin.This begs the question of what you meant when you talked about running current through it to heat it up — did you mean heating traces on a PCB??! Yes, that can be done — there’s a YouTuber who makes self-soldering PCBs — but the temperatures needed to toast wood are far higher than what PCB substrate can handle. So it wouldn’t work for this application.You could, I suppose, run current through a stainless steel stencil, but I think it’d be tricky.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 12:37:44 am
content: I purchased a 'baby' inkjet printer from Ali two years ago.It works very well for what I use it for.It is basically an ink cartridge in a tiny box with the processor to receive the artwork from your bluetooth enabled phone.The seller I purchased mine from seems to have vanished, however Ali Search got plenty of hits with "Portable Mobile Color Mini Handheld Printer".Also, "Mbrush" and "Mark Jet" seem to be brands or brand copy.It may work for your application.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 01:22:27 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on September 10, 2023, 08:50:51 pmYou will have to experiment with what works in your application. To me the branding iron approach seems like a good fit, but you know the reasons you aren't attracted to it. Remember the iron could do the base logo and customizations could be a separate iron. Possibly one made like the mold inserts they use to put date and revision letters in injection molds. One or more clock faces with a movable arrow. Branding irons have the same issues with curved surfaces as most of the other methods. Work great on flat and cylinders, beyond that details and skills matter. If you have access to a PCB mill (and the skills and knowledge to avoid working it too hard) cutting the branding iron is fairly straightforward. Perhaps a maker space would give you access to that or even a better CNC machine.The transfer methods are easy to customize, but will need workflow tweaking to meet your needs. Durability can also be an issue, often requiring a varnish or other overcoat.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 07:42:05 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 10, 2023, 11:35:59 pmDuh! Saw PCB and thought PCB, like copper on FR4. My mistake, sorryMight work. But of a palaver, though.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 07:44:20 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on September 11, 2023, 12:37:44 amThanks! I'll have a browse and try not to be too profligate

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 07:47:20 am
content: Quote from: zapta on September 10, 2023, 11:19:55 pmWow! That is interesting. Prefer not to have lots of water (target is wood and will soak it up) but I think that's one to know about for some other purpose.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2023, 07:55:48 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 11, 2023, 01:22:27 amGot the mill, not necessarily the skill, and that's how I wound up with a laser. Milling was the obvious way to go, but the tiny features mitigate against - there is a minimum radius and it's just too big for the purpose. If you think of these letters, for instance, and you have a bit exactly the width of the stroke, you can't actually make a stamp that would print these letters. The sharp inner bit on the 'e' isn't doable. Of course, you could get a smaller but but then you're into bulk purchases because they're going to last approx 3 seconds before snappingI don't know but I think the commercial ones might be etched.QuoteI think they can get a coat of varnish over them, and if they don't stand too proud that might be OK. Problematic getting them to slide off into a recess, perhaps. Anyway, I've ordered some sheets and will have a go - got another destination for them if they turn out not to be suitable for this

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 11:02:09 am
content: Some progress:Got some laser printer decals (toner isn't water soluble so no need to mess around with lacquer) and ran off a page. It works, but with a couple of potential issues:1. The decal is clearly a decal and with the light shining to right (or wrong) way you can see it is just a decal. Needs lacquer on the finished item to prevent lift.2. Related to (1), since you can see the clear parts as well, it needs to be cut close to the stamp outline, which is tricky if it's not rectangular. Since the current stamp is circular a punch might be made to do the biz, but it's getting to be more of a faff then.But shows promise. There is now a sheet of usable decals to keep things going until XmasAlso ordered a hand-held printer of Ali. Initially went with the one that uses specific hand-held (albeit common) cartridge, but then cancelled in favour of the colour one which uses a standard HP cartridge. Might be the wrong choice though - the first uses quick-set ink which is apparently waterproof and pretty much permanent, whereas the second uses standard inkjet stuff that will need protecting.Another thing I tried, which wasn't mentioned at the start, was using some veneer to mark with the laser, and then creating a depression in the target work into which that veneer could be glued. That didn't work out, obvs, but might revisit some time.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 01:52:10 pm
content: Haven't read every post yet, but have you looked into Evebot's printers?TheirPrintPodsproduct is <$200. They also have a pen style similar to the Selpic P1.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 02:19:30 pm
content: The one I've gone for if of the type mentioned by Mr B:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002277779376.htmlOne similar to the one you show was suggested, but the issue with that is the single-source ink cartridge. The one I've purchased uses a normal HP cartridge, or the same thing but filled with 'magic' ink from Aliexpress (supposedly better formula for this tool, and including 'food safe' stuff!).

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 06:23:54 am
content: ^ That's why I went for the one I did... Standard HP cartridge.That way if the printer proved itself, I would be able to source the cartridge easily for some time to come.The kit I purchased originally came with two nail varnish size bottles of "some unknown chemicals".You were supposed to apply these chemicals first, one thin layer, then the other. (On surfaces other than, say, paper.)Allow to dry. Do the print. This rendered the ink mostly waterproof.I have long since run out of these chemical solutions and have not bothered to source more as my application does not need the waterproofing requirement.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 10:07:48 am
content: I ordered the pre-coat bottle with it, not expecting to need it (printing on wood) but I'm sure it will lead to other scenarios.Just found a use case where this won't work (the drop spindle in the photo attached). Not enough room to get in there, but also a stamp doesn't work because the surface is curved. As we can see, a transfer worked perfectly, so I think we might well end up with two or even more 'solutions'

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 11:03:53 am
content: So she says how about putting one on this, and I say not a chance on account of it being double curvatureandimpossible to get in to slide the thing off. And, indeed, when I try anyway it fails as predicted."Huh, let me have a go"