Radio Communication over +1000km? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2018, 12:41:45 pm
content: Sry I am in Rush...I will make a Journey over an huge distance to an Area where no other Communication way is available (beside of €€€ Sat).I know that Icom? have some AFU Short, Long,... Wave Radio with an Accu Pack. But just 4W Output?With my legal CB Radio and ~10W Peak on SSB I could get an Automated Connection with Germany and France and that distance are a little bit to short.There is just one thing I dont want to discuss that is whats legal... beside of that...Thanks

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2018, 03:33:45 pm
content: PSK31 or similar, at the right time of day and on the right band can work the world (slowly!) on a few hundred mW of transmit power (4W should be plenty).One of the modern narrow band digital modes would be my choice for working from remote places.Regards, Dan.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2018, 04:45:57 pm
content: oh the have an new model:https://www.yaesu.com/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&ProdCatID=102&encProdID=36B7B98621AF7554C9A03C8B190C5079&DivisionID=65&isArchived=0FT-818 - 6W HF/VHF/UHF All Mode Portable TransceiverDoes anyone have an Price? I know not cheap.

author: bob225
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2018, 04:57:08 pm
content: ft-818, 6-700 euro with out a decent aerial or tuner - that's if your licenced to use it

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2018, 05:16:27 pm
content: the price is better what I tough. And dont talk about the L word.QuoteHmm how about the Accu Pack?

author: rf-fil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 08:04:54 am
content: Over that range, it would have to be HF. You would either need to put up a large (non-portable) antenna every time you want to communicate, or have a vehicle mounted antenna and use a power amp (>100W) to overcome the inefficiency of it. Even then, HF won't be reliable. Not wanting to sound patronising, but you will need some time to learn how to deploy and operate HF comms, to make it somewhat reliable. Portable HF is not plug and play.If you need reliable comms, something like the inreach or a spot tracker, or even iridium phone is the way.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 10:44:46 am
content: I looking for something who can be use on an Ship and so.The other problem is the reception here where I life now its very noisy from the fuPowerline stuff.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 02:12:56 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on May 04, 2018, 05:16:27 pmI know you aren't the one taking the rules too seriously, but keep in mind that if you aren't licensed then even if nobody goes after you (some countries/places don't give a ... and nobody is going to chase you in the middle of the ocean neither) you may discover that finding someone to actually talk to is a problem unless it is an emergency. E.g. HAMs aren't allowed to talk to non-HAM stations, even less pirate ones. So you will likely get shouted down on the band and ignored (and any Europeans you are talking to reported to authorities unless it was a mayday call).Probably something to consider if this is going to be your only means of staying in contact with the rest of the world ...I also saw you were asking about CB elsewhere, but given the part of the solar cycle we are in, I wouldn't have high hopes for the sporadic E propagation on 11m. And then there is no guarantee that the Es opens in the direction you need instead of blasting you with chatter of Brazilian truckers for days ... This is about the only way to do 1000+km on that band. Keep in mind that even if you have a 10kW transmitter somewhere in the middle of the ocean, your party on the continent may not be able to have one - so it won't do you much good if they can hear you but you won't be able to hear them back.So if this is for more than just having fun, taking the $$$ satphone would be a prudent idea. It isn't even that expensive anymore - e.g. Iridium prices are comparable with cellphones (the phone you can rent if it is for short term):https://satellitephonestore.com/iridium-services

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 02:29:06 pm
content: Quote from: rf-fil on May 07, 2018, 08:04:54 amAgree with all of that, with the minor clarification that a simple wire HF antenna can be easily portable when it's packed away, but when it is deployed (perhaps thrown into some trees?) it is definitely non-portable. My wire antenna for portable use on 20, 30, and 40m fits in a bag about the size of my fist.My experience is that, with 5W on CW, I can virtually always make contacts 1000km or more distant. But I can't choose the direction my signal will go, and can't pick a particular station to make contact with. Another thing which may not be obvious; HF doesn't always work for short range contacts, even when it's working for long range. More than once I've experienced the situation that someone 10km away on the other side of a hill was completely inaudible to me, but we could relay messages to one another by talking to a friendly station 2000km distant.And that brings up the post by Janoc. If you want to be able to communicate, you must have a documented license, not necessarily for the "L" reason that someone doesn't want to talk about, but because nobody will answer a non-licensed transmitter.

author: bob225
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 09:19:54 am
content: While you fanning around with cb's, or unlicensed radio comms, what I very much doubt you can use aboard a ship, just go the obvious route of a satellite phoneyou can rent them or buy them used

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 10:26:56 am
content: To operate on a ship you'll need permission from the ship's master and that's unlikely to be granted if you're not licensed so your equipment could be confiscated or you may even find yourself being put ashore if they take exception to your 'illegal' useage.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 08:31:46 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on May 09, 2018, 10:26:56 amOn the flip side of that, I have had ham radio friends that have taken radios on cruises and used balcony antennas without issue. They, of course, cleared it with the cruise line and provided proper documentation.

author: nomadd
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 09:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on May 11, 2018, 08:31:46 pmGo on a lovely expensive cruise to some beautiful sun-drenched locations.....and spend all of it in your cabin talking cr** with a load of old crusty grey bearded CB nutcases.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 03:46:20 pm
content: Quote from: nomadd on May 11, 2018, 09:03:48 pmYou are most likely not HAM because then you would know, that:a) HAMs don't talk to any "crusty grey bearded CB nutcases". Not for the lack of the aforementioned nutcases but because it is illegal to talk to non-HAM operators except in emergencies. CBis notHAM radio!b) Long distance HAM activity is mostly a late afternoon/evening/night time/early morning thing because you are likely to be working the low-ish HF bands (e.g. 20m or 40m) which are almost unusable during the day due to static. Also grey line propagation is a thing (ionosphere being affected by the Sun during the day and all that). The higher bands (17m, 12m, 10m, 6m) are day time bands but they rarely open outside of the maximum of the sunspot cycle.So HAM radio is perfectly compatible with enjoying the Sun and not spending days stuck in the cabin! (getting enough sleep is another story, though)

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 04:53:10 pm
content: what does someone here think I want talk to any HAM Operator?I will send some Encrypt Messages back Home.Sat is to expensive to use and there have to be coverage.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 05:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on May 12, 2018, 04:53:10 pmSo you are still considering doing it on CB (good luck with that) or illegally on HAM bands? And you think nobody is going to object to that, especially if you send encrypted traffic? Don't be surprised when you discover that you have spooks from a few countries and quite a few hobbyists on your back - encrypted traffic on HFdoes attract attention- pretty much only governments, military and spies use it there today (there is very little commercial traffic on HF left). Even if people can't decode it, the sources are being routinely triangulated to know where it is coming from.Satellite has coverage pretty much worldwide except for poles. So unless you are making a trip there, coverage is not likely going to be a problem.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 05:24:01 pm
content: Gain why on Ham Bands?Sure what does the want do in the middle of the Ocean?Call US Navy aka World Police?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 05:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on May 12, 2018, 05:24:01 pmWell, you talked about using HAM gear (that FT-818) - that usually won't let you transmit outside of the allowed bands unless you modify it, even though it can generally receive everywhere.But doesn't matter - regardless of where you do it, it still applies. There are a lot of listeners on HF who listen and track all sorts of things just for fun. A new station sending encrypted data will be super interesting for them. And then you have those who have monitoring of the bands in their job description.And yeah, if someone decides your traffic is likely a spy station or military traffic or something like that (especially if you happen to be transmitting in the middle of a military/reserved band somewhere), you can expect a visit from the nearest warship or submarine to check it out. Things like that did happen in the past. The captain of the ship you will be on will certainly thank you for this. And you will be still glad if it will be only a NATO vessel - in that case you will probably end up only with a fine and possibly the equipment confiscated. However, there are some other countries where the navies are known to shoot first and only ask questions later when doing an intercept in international waters - it is very unlikely someone will sue them when "accidents" happen. Then the bravado will leave you quite quickly ...Even if nothing like that happens, the ship has to land somewhere at some point - expect an official "welcome" in such case. Tracking ship's movement is pretty trivial today.Also, your "home base" isn't going to be in the middle of the ocean, no? Unless it will only listen and never transmit anything back, it is trivial to find it. Don't be surprised when the place gets raided. A pirate station is one thing, a potential spy cell talking to someone abroad is something very different and few governments will ignore that in their backyard.This is really a very ignorant and monumentally stupid idea, IMO. Saving a few hundred bucks on a satphone could end up being one heck expensive like this.

author: nomadd
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 12:01:34 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on May 12, 2018, 03:46:20 pmBut what on earth do you talk about and to whom? Genuine question, btw.I watch lots of guys on YouTube who do Radio Repair - when they show a demo of a unit they've fixed, the airwaves just seem to be full of salespeople, prostitutes, criminally insane ranters and people just unintelligently "mouthing off"..Let's take my situation as regards communication, for example, which I'm sure is typical of most these days:1) Someone I know and lives local -> I'll pop over to their house.2) Someone I know and does not live local -> Skype, where I get both sound and picture. Or phone - landline or mobile.3) Someone I know and does not live local and don't need immediate reply -> Email.3) People I don't know but we share a common interest: tons of Forums - just like EEVBlog.Plus Email and/or private messaging.4) Generally keeping up with what's going on in a hobby or work-related field: tons of web sites and search engines (Google, StackExchange, etc.) And, of course, YouTube.5) Social Media - I never use it, but many do.So what am I missing out on in the world of HAM? Is it just a load of folks talking about, well, HAM radio? Which seems a bit self-defeating...As I say, genuine question, so please don't get triggered!

author: yl3akb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 04:32:36 pm
content: It is similar to fishing. Why do it, if you can go and buy the fish in the store

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 04:39:53 pm
content: because the Fish from the River is fresher than from the Supermarket.

author: yl3akb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 04:56:26 pm
content: Yes!!You get fish directly, without any intermediaries. It may be harder and not the most efficient way, but it all about process and technology

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 06:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: nomadd on May 13, 2018, 12:01:34 pmDepends. I am not the ragchewing type myself, I am more into building things.But from what I see on the bands, few people just talk, especially if it is some exotic/rare station. Just the fact of making a contact and getting it in your logbook is valuable, because those contacts count for all sorts of contests, diplomas, bragging rights and even for upgrading your license (in some countries you have to have a certain amount of confirmed contacts in order to be able to upgrade). Most contacts are very short and schematic - you only exchange your call signs and a signal quality report, that's it. If it is for a contest, then there may be some extra code to be exchanged, depends on the contest. Basically the rarer the callsign/location and the longer the distance, the more valuable such contact is.So if you are on a boat somewhere in a middle of the ocean, where no/few HAMs have gone before, you will be a very sought after article, with crowds of people wanting to make contact. Such pileup will keep you pretty busy for hoursOf course, there are also people who run nets or just chat with friends.Quote from: nomadd on May 13, 2018, 12:01:34 pmOn HAM bands? Maybe on CB or PMR where it is a free for all, with no licensing. On HAM frequencies this is rare because you can actually get fined and have your license revoked (rare, but does happen) for such behavior.Again, amateur radio is not the same thing as what the truckers use, even though it looks similar and both are radios. Different frequencies, different mode of operation, different ITU service and different laws governing its use. Completely different worlds.Quote from: nomadd on May 13, 2018, 12:01:34 pmI don't want to go into a lot of detail because it would be off-topic here (and has been covered before - look for a thread "Is HAM radio dying?" or something like that). HAM radio is a technical hobby - some people collect stamps and others are building retrocomputers, HAMs tinker with radio. In fact, HAM radio is the only ITU service where it is explicitly OK to build and modify equipment without having to have it certified by some authority before using it. That's a big no-no for every other service, including that CB or common ISM band hardware.It is not meant to replace a cellphone or e-mail or anything else. In fact, e.g. in the USA using it for such things is explicitly illegal - the law prohibits using it for things that could be done better by some other service.So for the most people it is a way of having fun with radio - learning to build stuff, some people like those contests and chatting, some others are building and launching satellites (yep, that's a thing, there are several HAM satellites up there), working on stuff like high-speed digital communications, designing new protocols, building networks, others build tracking systems (e.g. APRS). A lot of HAMs work on radio astronomy in their gardens (you can build a radio telescope), build rigs for tracking satellites (HAM and not HAM ...). There are some guys experimenting with radar as well, software defined radio has a lot of following and a lot of R&D was done by HAMs, etc.There are also sports - like fox hunting (trying to find a hidden beacon somewhere in the woods) or ARDF - basically a cross-country orienteering where you have to identify and localize several such beacons while navigating using only a map and compass (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio_direction_finding)Of course, then there is also the emergency communication - HAMs are often part of the emergency communication networks when a disaster strikes - e.g. a hurricane. Last year HAMs were the only link to some of the islands hit by the hurricane for a good while until the military could bring in their own equipment. In this regard HAMs have a huge advantage - they are there already, have the equipment, have the skill and all they need to operate is a charged car battery. Cellphone networks, internet and such will be unusable for a long time if the infrastructure has been destroyed.So there are tons of things you could do once you have the permit. It is not only about chit-chat, that's mostly the domain of the greybeards.

author: nomadd
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 08:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on May 13, 2018, 06:32:42 pmMany thanks for the long and detailed reply. Much appreciated.I'm more into the techie side of things myself, but haven't really done anything with RF. Nearly all my stuff is embedded digital.Are there any good starter books you would recommened - say for building a variety of RF projects from scratch? My knowledge so far is from reading the RF section here on EEVBlog and watching videos on YT - The Signal Path, w2aew, TRX Bench, etc.Cheers.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:15:30 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on May 12, 2018, 04:53:10 pmNah, I think you won't. I can't see you pulling that off.Pardon me for being direct, but you know too little and talk too loud.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 10:14:28 am
content: Quote from: nomadd on May 13, 2018, 08:45:51 pmUff, depends, there is a ton of radio projects out there. You can even start with a crystal radio if you want (and live near an AM station).E.g. Harry, SM0VPO has a ton on his homepage:http://www.sm0vpo.com/Or Maarten, PG1N:http://www.pg1n.nl/index.php?lng=enBut if you want a book, the ARRL Handbook is very good because you get all the basics in one place, along with a ton of projects you can try. There is new edition of the Handbook every year. If you want just one book, get this one, IMO:http://www.arrl.org/arrl-handbook-2018There is also the Experimental Methods in RF design, by Hayward et al - a very good intro to both basic and more advanced radio stuff:https://www.amazon.com/Experimental-Methods-Design-ARRL-Inc/dp/087259923XHowever, these two mostly cover things like HF radio, so don't expect e.g. building wifi radios with it. It should get you started on the easy stuff first, though. The principles are the same even for the microwave/wifi/LoRa/cellphone/whatever, just it gets much more complicated to experiment with it unless you have a lot of knowledge and specialized gear.E.g. in my case I like tinkering with receivers and software defined radio. It is quite satisfying when you coax a signal from the other side of the world out of a rats nest of wires on a piece of protoboardThe digital skills will also come useful because radios need oscillators - and today the easiest way to generate the various frequencies needed is using a synthesis - e.g. the AD9851 or Si5351 chips are a popular solution for that. Those need a controller, so you will be adding an MCU, a display, maybe PC control, etc.

author: OE2WHP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 02:13:43 pm
content: HAM radio is not 'plug and play'. Especially dx short wave communication needs good knowledge in antenna theory and RF propagation. Furthermore a HAM radio is not like a CB radio with just a few self explaining knobs. They offer a lot of settings and especially digi modes can be quite tricky. If you don't know how all this stuff works, there are a lot opportunities for errors and chances are pretty low that you get the system set up right.That said, I think your overall chance of success tends to zero.