HackRF, "designed for only one purpose, which is to break into a car" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 12:22:34 pm
content: The title is a quote from an article:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4503762/On-Amazon-hacking-gadget-car-thief-s-dream.htmlAnd later: "Experts have responded to our investigation by calling for the Home Office to launch a probe into the availability of the HackRF One and similar devices.".What's next? "This bread knife is designed for only one purpose, which is to stab stupid journalists". So ban all bread knifes?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 12:32:41 pm
content: You can understand journalists being stupid and ignorant, as they usually are on techincal subjects and too lazy to do preoper research, but the comment from the Thatcham guy shows he is too stupd to be holding that jobQuoteQuoteExperts in what exactly - knee-jerk idiocy ?By their twisted logic you'd also restrict the sale of laptops.But "Range Rovers so insecure they can be stolen with £257 gadget from Amazon" makes a less interesting headline.QuoteMore bollocks - they use unlicensed spectrum.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 12:35:32 pm
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on July 20, 2017, 12:22:34 pmIf I made a knife that was dull on both edges, thereby precluding it from being used for cutting, but with a sharp point, calling it a bread knife doesn't change the fact that it is a tool designed solely for stabbing.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 20, 2017, 12:35:32 pmAre you seriously trying to imply that HackRF is originally designed to steal cars with this idiotic analogy?What about the stuff from Ettus Research?https://www.ettus.com/Or any other SDR radio that is capable of transmitting, for that matter?

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 20, 2017, 12:32:41 pmMake that **all** subjects, this is Daily Wail "Journalism" we are discussing.Not a serious paper in any sense these days, but permanently big on the outrage, it is best ignored as, since they changed the ink years ago, it is no longer even good for wrapping fish and chips.73 Dan.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:32:48 pm
content: QuoteWhat?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:33:02 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 20, 2017, 12:32:41 pmI think they were implying that the devices like HackRFcanoperate on licensed parts of the spectrum too and using it like that could potentially be an offense. Even the ISM band has very specific rules and homebrewing kit for it is defacto illegal. Don't know about UK but most countries require that the device meant for this band is certified to comply with the regulations for the band (manufacturer's/importer's obligation) and thatit is not user modifiable, at least as the frequency/output power and modulation is concerned. That pretty much rules out anything "home-grown". That the ISM band doesn't require a license for the end user doesn't mean it is a free-for-all, unregulated space.HackRF and similar would clearly run afoul of this if they were used in this manner (as would any RF generator for 2.4GHz, for that matter).So while I agree that the rest is bollocks, this part actually makes sense. OTOH, if they demand the government to ban the sale of thistest equipmentbecause it could be used in an illegal manner, that would be royally stupid.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 20, 2017, 01:23:42 pmNot at all, and the analogy is no more or less idiotic than Frank's. *IF* that is its intended purpose, then the outrage needs to be directed at the company that makes it. That's a big "if".For the record, I don't trust journalists as far as I can throw them. Today's media is 100% about sensationalism at the expense of facts. If they can cause fear and outrage, no matter how misplaced and/or false, the greater the money. That doesn't mean they always get it wrong.Has anyone done a teardown on this? Does it have a legitimate purpose?

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:39:45 pm
content: but, but...think of the children

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: WastelandTek on July 20, 2017, 01:39:45 pmIt can be used to kidnap children as well?! That's it! Grab your torches and pitchforks!

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:45:31 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on July 20, 2017, 01:32:48 pmI think it is referring to the Rolljam attack. You jam the keyfob, so the user thinks the fob didn't work and presses it second time. Your gizmo now replays the first code that you have intercepted and the car opens - but you now have one unused code (the second one) that you can replay later and use it to open the car. This effectively bypasses the most common rolling code systems.http://makezine.com/2015/08/11/anatomy-of-the-rolljam-wireless-car-hack/Another possibility they could be referring to, that is also commonly exploited, is brute force jamming. You wait until the car owner wants to lock the car and jam the fob. You would be surprised how many people are not bothering to actually check whether their car has actually locked ... This is a very common attack in shopping center parkings where you will always find some sheep that will fall for it. It is mostly done to steal things from the car, not to steal the actual car, though.Then there are the various keyless entry systems using the RF cards to open and start the cars, which are also notoriously insecure - typically vulnerable to range extension attacks (re-transmit the signal from the owner's pocket to the car down in the parking).Of course, then there are also cars whichstilldon't even use a rolling code - like Jeep Wrangler, I believe.Car security is mostly security by obscurity - hoping that nobody catches you with the pants down. The original article is pretty symptomatic of it too - let's suppress the availability of the tools instead of actually fixing the problem (costs money!).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:54:01 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 20, 2017, 01:38:37 pmWhy don't you actually bother to look the HackRF device up?https://greatscottgadgets.com/hackrf/And why would you need to do a teardown when all the documentation is publicly available?https://github.com/mossmann/hackrf/wikiIt is a normal software defined radio. Usually used for things like reverse engineering all sorts of protocols, receiving satellite signals, designing new communication systems (cellphone systems), all sorts of measurements, band monitoring, HAM radio use, etc.Do you think that if someone was building a car stealing device, they would bother to build a wideband radio that works from 30MHz up to 6GHz??? What would that be good for if all you need is to support a narrow ISM band where most of the keyfobs work? Such gadget could be much simpler and cheaper.It is simply a victim of a criminal being clever and finding off-the-shelf equipment they could use. Same thing like e.g. ATM skimmers use off-the-shelf Bluetooth radios.BTW, the guy who has designed it, Michael Ossmann, has been on the AmpHour too:http://theamphour.com/the-amp-hour-161-gifted-grimgribber-grokker/

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 20, 2017, 01:38:37 pmIt's a general purpose SDR. There are many different ones out there, this one is no more or less "designed for breaking into a car" than the others. They're used for everything under the sun that involves RF communication, reception or transmission. It's the Arduino or Raspberry Pi of RF comms if you will.

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on July 20, 2017, 03:40:53 pmButthisone has "hack" in its name so it is clearly a criminal device.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 20, 2017, 12:32:41 pmhttp://www.bodyshopmag.com/2017/news/new-cto-for-thatcham-research/https://www.postonline.co.uk/people-moves/3226771/thatcham-chief-technical-officer-miller-to-retire

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 04:48:28 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 20, 2017, 12:32:41 pmActually wide band devices such as HackRF can use licensed or unlicensed spectrum and would be illegal to use for many radio applications because of a lack of approval.But at least in Spain and, I presume, the whole European Union, there are two classes of users that don't need to use approved equipment. Hams and people working with research and development prototypes. Devices such as HackRF are clearly research/development equipment, so its posession is not illegal nor it requires a license.Of course it doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want with it. So, to clarify, there are two kinds of "licenses". The equipment license (approval) and the user's license. Conversely, a licensed mobile telephone operator can not use a HackRF or a LimeSDR to provide mobile phone service unless it gets approved.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 04:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 20, 2017, 01:38:37 pmIt's a development platform designed for experimentation and learning. Of course it can be used for nefarious purposes. But it's really foolish to deploy a wireless sysem without proper security measures.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:05:31 pm
content: This is shortsighted impulsive journalism to harvest the clicks.A few years ago, a series of break-ins happened and a few teenagers were caught. They told they bought the gear (hammer, screwdriver, crowbar) at the local hardware shop.Since then, when you buy a crowbar at the hardware shop, you will be recorded and images sent to police for analyzing "suspicious" behavior.Because, a crowbars sole purpose is to be used to enter buildings illegally, obviously.

author: Jon.C
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 07:47:14 pm
content: It is a very interesting device

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: WastelandTek on July 20, 2017, 01:39:45 pmFried or boiled?

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 09:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: Jon.C on July 20, 2017, 07:47:14 pmCar thief!!!!!!-Pat

author: Mickster
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 12:52:58 am
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on July 20, 2017, 09:09:45 pmYikes!Guess I must be a car thief as well.J/KIt's just another fricken test and diagnostic tool, the same as a scope, frequency counter, logic analyser, logic probe or even a neon mains testing screwdriver ffs.The above have been used for legitimate purposes in the main, butcouldbe used with criminal intent, if one chose to do so.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 03:09:02 am
content: Quote from: Mickster on July 21, 2017, 12:52:58 amExactly. As can a hammer, a baseball bat, a golf club, an automatic center punch, a piece of rope, duct tape... Pretty much anything can be used for nefarious purposes, if the person in possession of it is so inclined. The people who write this tripe are well and truly self serving tools too lazy to learn about what they're demonizing, or knowing better and intentionally doing so for their own gain (which I feel is worse). Sadly the latter seem to become more numerous with each passing year.-Pat

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 03:14:41 am
content: reminds me ofhttp://therealrevo.com/blog/?p=117136

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:22:21 am
content: Quote from: janoc on July 20, 2017, 01:23:42 pmIt's a piece of sensationalist crap from a vile right wing newspaper that drove the downright racist side of the Brexit vote, has a disgusting attitude toward refugees and immigrants, has a reputation for publishing hypocritical garbage about paedophiles attacking 15 year old girls and then on the next page photos of bikini clad girls the day after their 16th birthday with headlines like 'look how xxxxxx has blossomed' and is colloqiually known as the Daily Heil to this day for it's political leanings and pre WW2 support of Hitler (some would suggest it still has sympathies in that direction).I would be ashamed to wipe my arse on it, I'd be more comfortable looking at hardcore porn in public than be seen reading the Daily Heil.The sad thing is, they seem to have a huge number of readers who are just as ignorant and believe what they print 'must be true or they wouldn't be allowed to print it'Here endeth the rant.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 11:33:07 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 20, 2017, 12:32:41 pmI'm not sure that being an unlicensed spectrum classifies the transmission as 'for general reception'... however, just because youcanreceive a transmission, does not mean youwill.This just in: Ears are illegal because you could use them to listen to a private conversation.