Using Vantablack to Reduce Noise - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Jmenture425
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 08:30:59 pm
content: I ordered some samples of vantablack to use as a background against some silicon substrates I'm viewing under an A655sc and A40M. Curious if anyone has any thoughts if the darkest (technically the 2nd darkest now..) surface known to man will move the needle at all in increasing the clarity of the images grabbed by the TCs?

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 11:15:52 pm
content: Tried (original Surrey nanosystems Vantablack) as a coating for FFC flags. No different to Halfords car matt black.Both are somewhat better than 'black' anodising which can be quite variable and cause temperature readout errors by reflecting sensor temperatures back inwards.note for non-UK - Halfords is a UK retail park car/bike DIY store

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 03:18:14 am
content: The guy who bought exclusive rights to vantablack is sort of a prick, so I'd recommend a different formulation if you're going to try others (also there's a blacker 2.0 version). I'm not sure any have been evaluated for LWIR performance, but at the very least you should not be getting any specular reflections of any kind.I've considered Musou Black and Black 3.0 (though I've heard some earlier formulations, while not as dark, are more durable as coatings) as commercially available extremely black paints (and I think bother are considered less emissive for visible than the original vantablack), but I wonder how well each works in IR bands and how well they hold up to heat - likely important for a lot of thermal camera uses.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 09:07:37 am
content: There is a video by Ben over at Applied Science that looks into the alternatives and how to make your own. It's a good watch to learn about the topic.Although I doubt it would do anything useful for thermal imaging. The microstructures are smaller than wavelengths you see, so maybe you need a different formulation for LWIR wavelengths.E: there was a thread a few years back looking at different paints and electrical tape options. Maybe you can find it via Google, I didn't.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 11:34:51 am
content: IIRC he claims that black velvet is a reasonable alternative, whilst quite not as black it might be dark enough?

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 01:23:11 pm
content: Since visible light is mostly reflection but infrared is mostly emission, it's two vastly different sources of optical noise.And you don't necessarily need a 'dark' background. Just something really uniform. And not reflective. I don't know the exact setup that OP is using, but having something far away and mostly out of focus would work good enough I assume.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 03:09:47 pm
content: NASA did some testing on coatings and their emissivity. The plots may be of interest to readers of this thread. After a recommendation from Bill_W I use Krylon Ultra Flat Black 1602 at £7 per can. It is detailed in the NASA tests.https://web.archive.org/web/20170118020039/https://masterweb.jpl.nasa.gov/reference/paints.htmFraser

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 04:25:00 pm
content: I would add that visually the Vantablack is truly mind bending. You just do not know what to make of it.Bill

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 04:32:35 pm
content: Like looking into a Black hole in Space maybe ?Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 04:47:11 pm
content: Just reading this companies web page for Black 3.0 makes me want to buy it !I love humorous advertisingThey clearly do not like Anish Kapoorhttps://culturehustle.com/products/black-3-0-the-worlds-blackest-black-acrylic-paint-150ml?variant=41147281342622&currency=GBP&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=Cj0KCQjwj7CZBhDHARIsAPPWv3cVSHUvZ6fg30_0PVLcvfgbmPcxs-KkYsMH2Tt0tU-MPQXtaTtfpHgaAmCmEALw_wcBThe Anish Kapoor story …. VantaBlack in artistic applications. It does read as a dick move to prevent others from using it …. Hence Black 3.0 was created by Stuart Semple.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anish_KapoorI never knew about this so I am pleased that this thread made me research the story.From Wikipedia…….“ Artists like Christian Furr and Stuart Semple have criticised Kapoor for what they perceive as an appropriation of a unique material, to the exclusion of others. In retaliation, Semple developed a pigment called the "pinkest pink" and specifically made it available to everyone except Anish Kapoor and anyone affiliated with him. He later stated that the move was itself intended as something like performance art and that he did not anticipate the amount of attention it received. In December 2016, Kapoor obtained the pigment and posted an image on Instagram of his extended middle finger which had been dipped in Semple's pink.Semple also developed more products such as "Black 2.0" and "Black 3.0", which to the human eye look nearly identical to Vantablack despite being acrylic, and "Diamond Dust", an extremely reflective glitter made of glass shards, all of which were released with the same restriction against Kapoor as the "pinkest pink".”Also an interesting readhttps://glasstire.com/2016/12/29/the-color-wars-when-artists-cant-play-nice/

author: IR_Geek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 12:02:43 am
content: Quote from: Bill W on September 22, 2022, 04:25:00 pmI second that. Have the coating on a high end SBIR blackbody for work. Even with 20+ years working with high end blackbodies like EOI, SBIR, and CI Systems, this coating just appears like a hole in space. Everybody who has come into the lab is amazed. It's not just visual but also striking in MW an LW too. Eventually I plan on measuring it's spectral emmisvity from 1-15um along with all our other BB's. Couple of them have competing Vantablack like coatings.

author: Gareth79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2022, 03:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: Bill W on September 22, 2022, 04:25:00 pmI assume you got a sample as a commercial request? I've not yet seen it yet myself and am intrigued! Annoying because I think it's made in town here

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2022, 05:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: Gareth79 on October 04, 2022, 03:47:54 pmYes it was commercial. Sent them a couple of shutters and came back with the blade part coated.Bill

author: bap2703
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2022, 09:38:24 pm
content: From what I tried, I got good emissivity results with... 3D printed ABS.Note that coatings may have other important properties like thermal conductivity, low outgassing, useful temperature range, durability etc.And it's difficult to achieve all of them: typically you want a thick coating to absorb, but that will degrade the thermal conductivity, a durable coating would use a binder that would outgas a lot, etc.3D printed ABS is bad for many of these, but it is also so much less hassle.I guess the good absorption comes from the macro and microscopic rougness. The later might depend on the specific ABS and temperature used though.It would be a bad match if you're trying to build a blackbody simulator, but for baffling it's convenient.And remember that good absorption in the visible doesn't give you any clue about the performance in LWIR, especially when comparing in the couple % reflectivity.