DW piracy protection in Germany. "Piracy protection is essential" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 07:23:33 am
content: At Vega Grieshaber noone expected the company's sensors to be pirated. But that illusion was shattered in 2003. Vega now shells out hundreds of thousands of euros to protect its technology.http://mediacenter.dw.de/english/video/item/920687/Piracy_protection_is_essential/p.s. i'm wondering, is this expensive protection they mention in a report? And is it sufficient protection?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 08:26:09 am
content: WTF are comments doing in the firmware?Sounds like the original was totally unprotected, and the clueless idiots were surprised the Chinese copied it?"250KEuro to protect" - BullshitThis is just an advert for the Fraunhofer Institute to scare people in paying for their expensive services.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 08:56:49 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 17, 2013, 08:26:09 amPeople should just call people out on stuff like this, just be like "it's your own damn fault dumbass"

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 11:13:26 am
content: Two of the biggest reasons you'll find your stuff copied are - 1/ High profit margin @ high cost (and there's HEAPS of examples here) and2/ Novel @ high volume. And that's getting worse every year - Hardware / Software / Labour / Everything. And just about everyoneon the planet is affected by it. I agree, if these people were STUPID enough to think they were immune, well ..... and NOW they'll wastemore millions, put the price up ... and ...IF it does cost a HUGE amount for R+D, you HAVE to take all this into account, not just gorunning to your lawyers or government etc crying about it afterwards. It's a new world, adapt or die.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 11:17:10 am
content: Quote from: digsys on April 17, 2013, 11:13:26 am+1

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 12:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 17, 2013, 08:26:09 amYes the video was mostly bullshit. Storing information in the firmware such as a CVS version string for each source file isn't unusual and costs nothing (unless you can move to the next smaller size chip). So while not exactly a comment a string with a directory path including the name of one of your software engineers in a Chinese clone is a possibility and a bit of a give away.They probably used the protection facilities on whatever chip they are using and the Chinese cracked it.Quote from: digsys on April 17, 2013, 11:13:26 amSo they spend a lot of extra money on protection which we as customers have to pay - everyone is worse off. An alternative is they just don't bother developing products because if immediately cloned they can't pay for the development and again everyone is worse off. That is why our 'government etc' devised the patent and copyright systems to make everyone better off. They absolutely should run to 'government etc' when the system is violated - that is the whole point.You say it is a new world (where everyone is worse off) live with it - I say when the world turns to shit try to fix it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 12:44:16 pm
content: I've heard it only costs around US$100 to get companies in china to bypass lockbits on any PIC/AVR chip and dump out the firmware.So really, locking your fuse bits on those chips does little to stop someone determined to copy it.If protecting the firmware is super important then a MCU should be selected that has real anti-tamper protection, self destruct mode etc..Or you can just code the firmware to detect the pirated hardware and work fine except randomly fail once every 4 days or soDeliberately wearing out some eeprom location can be good for that.Or have the firmware auto-measure the properties of some innocuous component on your PCB which you have spec'ed as ultra high precision.Anyone copying your circuit will use a generic component if it seems from the circuit that the tolerance doesn't matter.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 12:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 17, 2013, 08:26:09 amMaybe he meant strings, or encrypted strings.Alexander.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 12:50:51 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on April 17, 2013, 12:49:10 pmThat would be my guess also, he's obviously not an engineer as he called the firmware a "database"

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 12:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: RufusAbsolutely NOT saying that !! and NEVER have. And as for the government - we have enough problems fightingcorporate greed and the corruption it spawns inside government under capitalism, which is supposed to be for our good.Up to now, the "Eastern" countries were quite small, and it didn't take long for them to fall into line - Japan, Taiwan, Korea etcNOW, we're dealing with 1.2 Billion Chinese and then 1.1 Billion Indians !! And every one of them wants the "capitalist" dream!The "West" brings in STUPID laws to try to help?, but end up making it worse for small business. In most cases, the"government" doesn't care. As long as their fat mates are OK. I fight their shit all the time.No-one is going to stop the 1.2 Billion hoard (run by communist regime) or the other 1.1 Billion who have nothing to lose.It's not about what's fair or legal or right, that's Utopia. I've watched 100s companies that I've dealt with, for over 40+ years,go to the wall (and still are), all hoping and waiting for the government to fix it, guess what ..So we HAVE to adapt, ourselves.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 06:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 17, 2013, 08:26:09 amI find that a reasonable cost for changing e.g to a secure MCU and memory.Meetings to discuss the problem.Forming a search party to identify and investigate potential parts.Deciding on the new part(s).Retraining the SW developers for the new MCU.Signing NDAs and paying for the soooper secret documentation for that sooper secure MCU.Retooling the SW developers (buying new programming and ICE hardware, buying new compiler licenses).Rewriting the SW.Redoing the PCB.Rewriting and redoing the SW test procedures.Rewriting and redoing the HW test procedures.Get prototypes build.Applying the new SW and HW test procedures.Debugging the new HW and SW.Getting the whole device certified again to have all the certificates and credentials the old device had. Including updating the required paperwork.Updating the maintenance procedures, performance test procedures, etc. and updating the service manual.Redistributing the service manual to the qualified service partners.Informing distributors, service partners, etc. about the upcoming change. Train your sales force that the new device is coming up and give them a story they can tell the customers.Tell key customers the new device is coming, the new order number and convince them that the new device is a 100% compatible replacement, and that the company will honor all existing contracts.Updating logistics systems, like ordering systems so the new device can be ordered when available. Updating the same systems that the new device is listed as a replacement for the old one.Updating marketing material, like catalogs, so it contains the new ordering number.Get the new parts from authorized distributors.Get the new device manufactured.Phase the new device into the supply chain.Out-phase the old device, probably arranging for shipment of old devices back to you.Arrange for storage of the old dev ices, in case you have long-term commitments to deliver them, and exactly them, and no substitute.If there is a surplus of old devices get them properly disposed.Same for surplus of old PCBs, old MCUs, etc. Get them properly disposed.Reset your QA system, so you don't track failures of the new device under the statistics for the old devices.And probably a bunch of other tasks I don't recall at the moment. There is a huge difference between a sole trader and even just a medium sized business doing more than just one-offs.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2013, 06:51:56 pm
content: wooooah, post of the week dude!

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2013, 02:55:42 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 17, 2013, 08:26:09 amI'm likely to 100% agree with this