Fluke 8846A Discontinued.  Is it worth it to pay higher prices? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Echelon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 02:06:23 am
content: So I have been wanting to buy a bench multimeter for home lab. I have had my eye on a Fluke 8846A for a few years. Now that I am getting close to being able to afford it, I found out that Fluke has discontinued it and the retailers with remaining inventory have raised the price by 700 to 1000 USD. The price they have now seemingly settled on is almost $2200.Right now I am just using a $50 rebrand handheld multi-meter from a local hardware store. It's designed for electricians, not electronics. There is no microamps range. The update time is slow and there no ability to manually range, further adding to this problem. The backlight doesn't hold on, the meter automatically shuts down while I am tinkering with my circuits, and continuity latching is poor.Overall, I would really like something much nicer, on mains power, dedicated to my lab. I really appreciated the dedicated mode buttons and minimalist approach. I really don't like gear that gets in my way so do not want to be wading through a bunch of menus. Gear that I don't completely trust is a hard no. I also liked the built-in frequency counter. Having the ability to do very precise measurements for learning about certain subtle electrical characteristics or the ability to trade that off for speed when that is not required was very nice. The VFD was also pretty cool. It's just going to sit on my work desk, I doubt it would ever be in danger of being physically damaged.My question is this: Are there better meters and options on the market now that I should stop focusing on this one or is it worth it to pony up the extra money to get one before everyone sells out? One of the hard things is that test equipment is so niche that you can't exactly try before you buy. I can't go down to the local store and demo a bunch of makes and models.I welcome discussion, opinions and insight. Also, I'm brand new to the forms, let me know if this is in the wrong place.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 03:52:01 am
content: Yowser! No advance notice (AFAIK) and no replacement! I wonder if they just ran out of Cyclones or what--I'm sure it was due for an update and respin at the very least. If Fluke decides not to come out with any direct replacement, that would be an indication that the company is headed downhill, IMO. Perhaps they just ran out of the old model before the new one was ready, or maybe they are introducing a new model at a lower price point and want to clear the old inventory first.I have one and I like it for a number of reasons, but I would probably balk at paying $2200 for the basic meter, especially if affordability is in any way an issue for you. However I would say the question of whether there is anything better is debatable--there are some features and specs that are unmatched by any competitive product. You could wait a bit and see if they come out with a replacement. If not, take a look at the options they suggest, like the DMM6500. Or, since you have such a basic meter now, do an intermediate step up to something like one of the BK Precision bench meters, something from Keysight or Siglent (read about and discuss these options as there's plenty on the forum already) or even something used. It appears to be a terrible time to go shopping right now!Edit: Apparently they did issue an EOL notice, but I'm not sure when they sent it out.https://us.flukecal.com/support/safety-notices

author: Echelon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 04:22:21 am
content: Looks like the distributors had pretty short notice too and it doesn't look like there was much of any EOL period to place orders. It does seem like something broke behind the scenes over at Fluke. I searched around before posting this thread and didn't really see any discussion of the discontinuation on the internet.https://media.digikey.com/pdf/PCNs/Fluke/FCAL%20Obsolete%204-12-2022.pdfSome of the Keithley 5.5 digit precision meters looked pretty close to what I was looking for too. I'll need to spend more time comparing the exact specifications and feature differences. I have the idea to eventually purchase a sweeping LCR meter or VNA. But that will be much more expensive and ideally my multimeter would at least do some basic capacitance measurements. I also need to try to better understand the differences between LCR meters and VNAs, but that is a topic for another thread.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 05:33:53 am
content: what makes that machine special ?i have one and find it an annoying machine. after a powercycle it takes oodles of time to boot.i'd go for a used 34401a from hp/agilent

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 07:35:20 am
content: Hmm, have you considered a Fluke 8842A, it has a 1uA resolution, has 5.5 digits with the internal accuracy of a 6.5 digit meter with a DC accuracy of .003% and you could get one a second-hand one for around $100?

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 07:41:55 am
content: There is no way I would get a bench meter without some sort of graphing functionality.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 07:59:58 am
content: Although the specs of the Fluke 8846A are good, it is an outdated instrument and was already too expensive before the price increased.I had a couple of them over the years and sold them again.One reason: It is impossible to get parts for these instruments.You can get easily two used Agilent 34401A for the same price as one Fluke 8846A.And the 34401A can be repaired, if needed.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 11:03:00 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on June 29, 2022, 07:35:20 amThe Fluke 8840/8842 are interesting 5.5 digit meters, but quite different from the 8845/8846. They offer a high impedance 20 V range, which can be a big plus and use the somewhat odd recirculating remainder ADC instead of a more conventional integrating ADC. Without the analog filtering they should be quite noisy and with the filter active the settling takes some time. I would more see them compete with the HP3478 as relatively good 5.5. digit meters: the HP meter with a plus for low votlages and the Fluke with the plus of the 20 V range.Even before the price increase the Fluke 8846 was a relatively expensive, old style meter. Today it is more the question which meters are actually in stock and not only provide good specs on paper.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 11:28:02 am
content: I think they pass the business to Keithley which belongs to the same Fortive. And I think most of Keithley products are made in China now.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 01:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 29, 2022, 05:33:53 amIt has certain specifications that competitors simply don't match. If those are not important to you, then I suppose it isn't special.A hard powercycle (back switch), yes it takes a bit of time to start up. But if you leave it on standby and use the front power switch it is instant. But if you really don't like it, now is an excellent time to sell it--perhaps to the OP!

author: Arhigos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 02:04:21 pm
content: Wow that's a surprising news for me.I think they should now make a fluke-branded version of DMM6500 (just like they did with DMM4020 and DMM4050) before.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 02:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on June 29, 2022, 07:41:55 amit is useless. you have a VFD with 192x64 pixels .. that's not even QVGA ... and the user interface to display, scroll and zoom is bass-ackwards...if you need graphing : machines have GPIB/ Serial / USB / LXI : install Agilents Benchvue and off you go. Graph to your hearts content.The only thing this machine has is a usb host , so you can plug in a memory stick and record long term, standalone. But then the newer TFT based agilent machines have that too..

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 04:35:27 pm
content: Just an observation that going from a $50 hardware store handheld to a nearly $2K lab meter is quite a jump! While I certainly wouldlovea meter of that class, I'm just curious what led you to orders of magnitude better equipment?Other than a permanent backlight, handhelds like Dave's BM786 are accurate and address most of your complaints about your current meter, for far less expense.But something like a Fluke 8846A surely looks good on the benchPersonally, I'm a sucker for VFD displays myself.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 05:01:41 pm
content: Depend of the OP needs, does it need to be datalogging ? you have softwares who can help with that too, seeing the tektronix variants clones and the flukes one, i would never ever pay thatyes to the huge problem to repair them if needed, just that is enough to pass over themyou have some rigols, keysight and others who can give you lot without costing this absurd priceeven the ''used'' price(s) will rise the same way it had with the 34401a, 884x series etc ... even old keithley 196 prices rose a lot too loll

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 06:55:38 pm
content: I'd say it wasn't worth paying the price even before it went up - it's not a recent model, and the DMM6500 is being sold by the same parent company with a lot of added features and a lower price even before the rise (this is what I picked when I went from a handheld to bench meter).Would only make sense paying the premium if you had a setup that MUST use this specific meter - those with stock will be pricing them aimed at people in that exact situation (i.e. a captive market).

author: Echelon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 07:31:50 pm
content: So what would you say in regards to the Keysight 34461A or 34465A? The problem with the 34461A is the low-end of the DCI measurements. However, the 34465A is quite a bit more expensive.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 07:48:33 pm
content: I don't see the need for graphic display. I do want data logging but the graphic is much better done on a computer after or during the data logging. I think if I invest in an expensive bench unit it would be primarily for the accuracy. No graphic on any meter would match that of a decent computer.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 08:11:34 pm
content: Quote from: Echelon on June 29, 2022, 07:31:50 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-officially-lost-the-plot-dont-buy-if-youre-a-hobbyist/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-products-not-to-be-sold-to-private-customers/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-1200x-series-no-replaceable-parts-are-available/Maybe a Keithley DMM6500 would suit you? It does have a cool UIFluke and Keithley are both part of Danaher.

author: Echelon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 09:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on June 29, 2022, 08:11:34 pmWow! I had no idea about Keysight. The impression I had of them was the opposite. Thanks for giving me the heads up! I'll defiantly look for alternatives.Maybe I'm weird, but I actually didn't like that UI. I preferred the dedicated buttons of something like a Keithley 2100. I'll keep looking around. Thanks for all the input from everyone!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 09:23:32 pm
content: This may or may not be what you want, but at least have a look:https://www.bkprecision.com/products/multimeters/5493C-6-1-2-bench-digital-multimeter.html

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 09:34:43 pm
content: Quote from: Echelon on June 29, 2022, 09:13:56 pmMaybe one of these might suit your needs:https://siglentna.com/digital-multimeters/

author: abdulbadii
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 02:25:34 am
content: IMHO nowadays as many cheaper, though just ~25%, than Fluke in intr. market , it is overhyped for being stated as quintessentialjust there're so many elseso wonder why so many people r zealot to Fluke

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 04:51:25 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on June 29, 2022, 08:11:34 pmnope. danaher went bye-bye.Tektronix owns KeithleyFortive owns Tektronix and Fluke (and others , non test equipment)Fortive itself has spun out of Danaher but has nothing to do with danaher anymore

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 09:36:40 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 30, 2022, 04:51:25 amFluke and Keithley still belong to the same company so I think Fluke leave the bench meter market to Keithley (Tektronix got out of the meter market all together). I think Keithley is better suited to compete with siglent etc..

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 10:10:29 am
content: I think Keithley is trying to compete with KS, not so much siglent (still waiting for a siglent SMU...)

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 11:59:53 am
content: The Fluke 8846A did not even have a good looking screen, when it came outThe Keithley DMM6500 probably has the most attractive high resolution screen of the DMM in this class.

author: Echelon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 03:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 29, 2022, 09:23:32 pmOn paper it looks like it ticks all my boxes. The thing that bothers me----and maybe you can help put this to rest----is that in my mind, BK Precision is of a lower quality and caliber. I'm not sure where I have that impression from. I noticed that BK Precision has a place in the non-standards/safety compliant thread. Am I completely way off with this?Also, not that the Fluke scores well here, but how is the repairability of the 5493C?

author: Echelon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 03:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 29, 2022, 03:52:01 amForgive me if this is a NOOB question, but what is a Cyclone? Are Cyclones a proprietary ASICs Fluke is/was using in their meters?What makes you say that Fluke might be heading down hill without a replacement model? Have you seen other signs of this decline? I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 04:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on June 30, 2022, 09:36:40 amtektronix was never in the meter market... whatever little they had were rebadged fluke , tenma and metex

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 04:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: Echelon on June 29, 2022, 07:31:50 pmI have the Keysight 34461A but nowadays I'd very probably go for the DMM6500 . The latter has several areas where it is better in terms of range. Either way; if you want to buy a high end DMM then Keysight or Tektronix/Fluke/Keithley (for all intents and purpose one and the same company) are the way to go.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 04:22:23 pm
content: Quote from: Echelon on June 30, 2022, 03:26:31 pmBK Precision is a variety pack of a company. They have been around quite some time and they have everything from legacy products that they designed long ago to outright rebadges. A lot of their stuff is somewhere in the middle, either custom built from their design or a customized rebadge. The result is that they vary (IMO) from a solid A-brand to a C+ brand in a few cases. Some of their products are top-notch, like DC loads and PSUs that don't blow up when charging batteries. They also have some very old design products that they are still selling--which is good in some cases. It just depends on what you are buying. They also are pretty decent about support, although they simply don't have detailed technical information on a lot of their recent products.I think the noncompliant handheld meters were built by CEM, a well known not-so-great supplier to discounters everywhere. Their bench meters (LCR and DMM) are made by Tonghui and are typically pretty good at a very good price. The 5493C is new and I haven't seen one yet in person. My impression is that it won't be quite as good as the DMM6500, especially when it comes to the current ranges and extended features, but it has a straightforward press-the-button operation style that you seem to want.QuoteThe Fluke 8846A is an interesting case in that while it seems to be utterly unrepairable in both my experience and that of those far more skilled than I (https://xdevs.com/fix/f8846a/), it is also nearly bulletproof if you don't physically abuse it or leave the display on 24/7 at full brightness. Every one that I've seen not working has looked rough. The one thing that can be fixed is the Front/Rear switch, anything else seems impossible. After spending some time and despair on a few, I think there may be an issue with mechanically induced failures inside the PCB below the outguard FPGA. Electrically they seem to be pretty robust, although I did see one that had components blown off the board from what probably was way too much voltage applied to the rear terminals.As far as repairing BK Precision/Tonghui bench meters, I'm 2 for 2. There's no documentation or schematics, but so far I haven't seen any part numbers scrubbed off or anything like that. They seem to be mostly COTS parts internally. So unless they've changed their philosophy I suspect that repairability will be difficult but maybe not impossible, which is about as good as it gets these days. Even the company probably doesn't service them at the board level--their 3 year warranty and fixed-fee repair service may just be unit replacements. Maybe display boards, case parts, etc are available but that's going to be it.Anyway, I'm not trying to sell you one, just to make you aware of it.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 04:25:24 pm
content: The cyclone is a FPGA that is used in the Fluke 8846, especially the name for a FPGA family. So not a Fluke specific part, but a part Fluke needs to build the DMM. The Fluke specific part is the program / firmware for the FPGA. With such an old design it would not make much sense to change the design to just use a newer and better available FPGA to do the same job. This would need a new PCB and if done right new tests to make sure that things like the INL is not severely effected. So if the FPGA is no longer available this would pretty much mean stop of production. A upgrade to a different FPGA is possible and was done for other meters, but the 8846 was due to go obsolete anyway and AFAIK there are not unique features that make it hard to replace.The question is if Fluke would offer a direct replacement or consider the DMM6500, Keithly2100 and DMM7510 as sufficient to cover most of the market.With alternatives available from Keithley they may not plan for a direct replacement and this does not really mean much for the brand as a whole. They may just shift that market segment more to the Keithley brand in the same holding. Another possiblity is they have a replacement, but not yet ready.Fluke still has the 8858 as a high end bench meter, though not as a more normal bench meter but more something for a cal lab and to complement the calibrators.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 05:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: Echelon on June 30, 2022, 03:35:38 pmNot a proprietary ASIC, the Cyclone is an FPGA and the 8846A uses two of them (one inguard, one outguard) to run the meter. The original Cyclone that Fluke uses was introduced in 2002 and I think they are up to Cyclone 10 or something. It would be like having a current production device that still uses a Core2 Duo and Windows XP. They (the original model Fluke used) were still available in single-unit quantities a few years ago when I checked, but perhaps they've dried up.QuoteI don't mean that the whole company is going to collapse or that you should dump your Fortive stock, but just that if they aren't putting any R&D into this area, it means there won't be products for us to buy. Fluke's industrial and calibration business is booming AFAIK, so the only reason for them to abandon this segment is either short term profit improvement or lack of capacity because their engineers retired and they didn't hire new ones in this department. So not replacing the model--even with an 8846B that is the same thing except a TFT display and a respun board with chips that aren't two decades old--seems like a sort of beginning of the end to me.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 05:31:52 pm
content: IMHO you got this wrong. You shouldn't see Fluke, Keithley and Tektronix as different manufacturers. They are just brands from Fortive. So the DMM6500 is just as much a Fluke as the DMMs that previously got sold under the Fluke brand. It looks like Fortive is organising the branding so Tektronix is for oscilloscopes and general test equipment, Keithley for the high accuracy electrical equipment and Fluke for calibration (which goes far beyond electrical).And some equipment is hard to improve. The Tektronix FCA3000 series frequency counters for example are very good today even though they have been on the market for >10 years. In some ways even better compared to what Keysight has to offer at their highest end.

author: aronake
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2022, 04:24:38 pm
content: I bought a 15 year old fluke 8845A for 350 USD last calibrated in 2012. Then needed one more bench multimeter so got a DMM6500 two month ago. The Fluke is still very accurate despite long time from calibration, around 1 off on last digit for 5V DC. The DMM6500 despite new around 11 off on last digit for 5V DC.So happy I have both, but would easily go for DMM6500 if i could only choose one. The display possibilities much better on the DMM6500. It is much more responsive, can sample MUCH quicker, and you can build your own scan card for it for 100 USD or so.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2022, 05:25:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 30, 2022, 05:31:52 pmI don't know what is going on internally at Fluke or Fortive, but I doubt that the majority of their customers would accept that nor do I think it is consistent with their overall marketing strategy. Just being owned or even managed doesn't automatically make the products of subsidiaries interchangeable. Sometimes they can even compete. Trying to switch people to the DMM6500 doesn't seem all that great of an idea since corporate customers that buy maintenance agreements and aren't worried that Keysight won't answer their calls can simply opt for the more conventional 34461A or 34465A. Of course, the bench meters not in the Datron/Wavetek-based line are a bit of a product island--not really related to anything else--so perhaps they have abandoned them, either purposefully or due to current circumstances.QuoteTrue, and that is why many customers prefer long product cycles. IMO the 8846A could use additional current shunts and USB, but beyond that I'd think that the only changes needed are those required to make it manufacturable for another decade or so. The DMM6500 is a different product.

author: nomead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2022, 06:16:08 pm
content: I wonder how much Flukes are used in ATE environment. Their bench meters are provided with HPAK compatibility modes, so lazy test engineer quite likely just swaps 8846A with 34461A emulating 34401A.

author: Arhigos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 12:49:02 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 01, 2022, 05:25:07 pmHe is right. Same thing happened when fluke acquired wavetek. For example 9100 calibrators was cannibalized by 5520 calibrators when 5800 calibrators was cannibalized by 9500 calibrators.Making two similar products with different design is not very profitable because the more volume you build the lower it will cost for you to build each unit.About microchip shortage - the problem isn't really that bad as you think. Other fluke products that uses Cyclone V FPGA (like thermal imagers, calibrators) for example is still being sold

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 03:31:18 am
content: Quote from: Arhigos on July 02, 2022, 12:49:02 amFluke acquired Wavetek with no intention of continuing its product line as a separate competing brand, so yes they consolidated. So far, I haven't seen any evidence that Fortive is consolidating the Tek/Keithley and Fluke brands. Maybe this is the beginning of that, but as I pointed out, the DMM6500 is a different product and I would not be at all confident that customers will accept it as a replacement for the 8846A. Perhaps I'm wrong about that or if I'm not, perhaps they will have to learn it the hard way. Or maybe they just don't care.QuoteCyclone V, sure. This has Cyclone 1 from 2002 which was apparently discontinued 3 years ago. So not a surprise to anyone at this point. The VFD might be an issue as well. I'm impressed that they managed to keep building them this long.https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intel-Altera/EP1C12F256C8?qs=P2rvyRAZsYhlPVU3GoXd3w%3D%3Dhttps://www.mouser.com/PCN/Intel_Corporation_PDN_1810_Intel_Programmable_Solutions_Group_(%E2%80%9CIntel_PSG%E2%80%9D,_formerly_Altera)_is_discontinuing_the_EPC2,_Cyclone%C2%AE,_and_Stratix%C2%AEGX_product_families.pdf

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 06:31:33 am
content: Quote from: Echelon on June 29, 2022, 02:06:23 amDevils advocate here - do you need need a bench multimeter?I used to think I needed one and owned all sorts of meters over the years. Ultimately I found that the meter I used the most was a Fluke 87V and I never needed any datalogging capability for the work I do. Now the only meters I own are two 87Vs and a Fluke 233 because they were by far the quickest and easiest to use - sold all the rest. In my work, a handheld meter is a huge plus because you can bring the meter to the work, rather than bringing the work to the meter or needing super long leads.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 09:31:21 pm
content: Quote from: TMM on July 02, 2022, 06:31:33 amIf you your work need handheld meter the bench meter just won't do. Each has its own use.