Non-stinky 4CH DSO ~ in class of Rigol DS1000Z  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 03:31:15 pm
content: Hello.I just got the Rigol DS1074Z from the postman, put it on the table here and let it run for 1..2 hours.I have 6 windows open in this room, it's about 19°C room temperature here.But the room is nonetheless filling up with a stench which I'd describe as a mixture of typical china gear chemical cocktail plus a good portion of extract made from ground-up old unwashed underwear dissolved in formaldehyde.My throat is scratching already...Well.Unacceptable.Price, shmice, my precious* scope, a Hantek DSO5102B, half the price of the rigol, did not have this problem.And this type of room air pollutants, like in cheap PC PSUs, usually don't really go away even after a year of constant use.I'm using this in my livingroom, I don't have a "lab". So this is double plus ungood.(* I meant to type previous, but not having it anymore now... sad funny typo ^^ )So I think that little stinker will return home, and I'll be looking for something else.What else is out there, a scope with similar features & quality to the Rigol, which is smell approved by those of you people who also don't like smelly throat-itchy substances in the air? ^^I need:- no stench- 4 channels- at least 70MHz- considerably greater mem depth than my Hantek (1Mpts) - All those new "cheap" LeCroy etc have horrendously low mem depth o_O Kpts = "Kinda pointless, terribly sorry"- modern big screen- preferably no underpowered screechy fan (the one of this here rigol is not as bad so far as some ppl said, tho)SPI, RS232 decoding etc would be nice to have.Price, well... I wasn't originally planning on spending more than the Rigol DS1000Z series price range...If there are compelling reasons to spend more, I might think about it again.Mind you that I'm a pure hobbyist, weekend soldering iron & probe wielder. You probably already guessed that I'm not convinced by "buy Tek, that's the only proper brand". My usage time to price ratio compared to a pro EE should remain saneLet me mention I've seen the siglent 2000 series thread, quite impressed by the specs.Not sure whether I want to spend > 2x the rigol price... And also I have some bad aftertaste when I hear "siglent", from reading these forums for a few years.Not sure if I have time to wait until those things have a reputation to speak of (while having *no* scope anymore!)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 09:29:15 pm
content: Surprising that it smelt so badly. Most new DSO's have some smell that quickly goes but I would have thought the factory burn ins would get this down to an acceptable level.The Siglent range can only offer the SDS2000 series in the class you describe.It is up to their 3rd FW release now.They have quite a large fan that is nowhere as noisy as a PC.Most of the Siglent "noise floor" is from buyers that have bought cheap(Asia) and when they have had a problem blamed Siglent, not the supplier that should have given them support.Hardly fair.Granted there a few problems just as ALL brands have.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 07:19:18 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 21, 2014, 09:29:15 pmI disagree, I think it is quite fair to blame the manufacturer if their kit isn't working properly. And it really shouldn't matter where a scope has been bought (even less so when considering that Siglent is a Chinese manufacturer). If the kit is crap when bought from a Chinese seller (assuming that the stuff is genuine, of course) what makes you think it will be better when bought from a local shop?QuoteThat's simply not true. If my new Agilent scope has a problem then Agilent will take care of it no matter if I bought it in Europe, from the US, or even from Taiwan. This is also the case for most other gear from reputable brands, not just oscilloscopes.Being able to go back to the supplier should always be an option, not the only way to get things fixed.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 07:39:09 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 22, 2014, 07:19:18 ambut your agilent scope is much more expensive for a reason. the support you're talking about is included in the price of the scope.you can't expect a world-wide support from a chinese company which is mass producing cheap equipment.if you want to have the support - then buy those cheap devices from local resellers - those local resellers will provide you the support , and surprise ! you HAVE TO PAY for that - that's the reason why those devices are more "expensive" in local stores.so please don't try to compare the un-comparableopen up your eyes, take your common sense pills (at least 1000mg) and the life will be much better

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 08:53:14 am
content: No smell from my DS1074Z. Maybe you just got a dodgy one and they could replace it.

author: eurofox
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 09:56:30 am
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on June 21, 2014, 03:31:15 pmNever got this with my Rigol's, maybe they got some "fun" and forgot the dirty underwear inside after the last production run for the week

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 11:33:49 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 22, 2014, 07:39:09 amThe main reason the Agilent scope is more expensive is that it offers additional functionality, that it is supported even years after the warranty runs out, and that it carries the 'Agilent' label. I wouldn't expect that from a low cost product.The Agilent scope is certainly not more expensive because the manufacturer deals with warranty issues.And as I said, this is not only true for scopes or T&M gear in general. When my cheap-ass £30 iPod Shuffle broke during the warranty period Apple as manufacturer dealt with it. The same is true for most other complex products which can be shipped around easily, like game consoles or laptops. Most of the stuff is much cheaper than a China scope.In addition, there is a legal issue, as it's up to the manufacturer to resolve certain issues with a product (in most countries the seller does also have an obligation to deal with issues of the product he sold but that is usually legally different than the mfgr warranty issue).QuoteI can. I'm not certainly not expecting local service centers in every country, but as a buyer I can reasonably expect that the manufacturer takes care of issues arising during the warranty period, even if that means having to send the device to another country for repair. It also means that the manufacturer does address the worst software bugs in a timely manner, at least for a reasonable period of time (i.e. as long as the product is still manufactured).Just referring to the supplier if a customer has a problem with a new scope simply isn't good enough.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 11:52:42 am
content: the cheap ass gear from china is so cheap because it's the price of the BARE HARDWARE - no services , no worldwide warranty included... nothing.bank in time when importing some networking stuff (ethernet and vdsl switches) we were provided with 5% extra units to cover the RMAs locally. that's the way how it is... get used to it.those chinese re-sellers selling to end customers through e-bay and dealextreme are not adding any additional service to the bare hardware (like support or 2 years warranty) . they're buying those from the manufacturer as your local reseller would and selling them to end user as it is (but cheap) with 30 day warrant maximum (20days consumed by shipping).your local re-seller will take care of your issues - but those chinese guys will not.btw... i don't like smart-asses trying to save money by buying bare-hardware and then bitching about lack of extra services they never paid for

author: MJR
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 02:03:39 pm
content: I am usually quite sensitive to plastic "outgassing" as well. I let new stuff run continuously for quite some time to test for that among other things, so I sympathize. That being said, my DS1000 series arrived last week and has been running full time since. With no ventilation running in the room, it has not shown any significant signs of being a "stinker."I do believe you though. Back in the '90s I was in charge of repairing CRTs (among other things) for a PC maker. Shipping CRTs back to the mfr was cost prohibitive, so the work was done stateside. The differences in the plastic composition within each CRT line was quite wide. So I have no doubt you have a stinker. Unfortunately even someone like Sony, who at the time had the best tube and electronics by a wide margin, would have tragic plastic runs in which the various solvents used would resurface as gasses after a couple of hours of use. Another brand earned the nickname "Vapor-View" after a particularly bad run.The upshot of this is that there is always a chance to get a "stinker," regardless of mfr. But if I were you, I would probably explore other scopes and options again as well.

author: MJR
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 02:14:00 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 22, 2014, 11:52:42 amHappens all the time in my other money burning hobby, photography. Equipment imported properly and backed by the stateside warranty network costs more in order to pay for that network. However there always seems to be a handful of users who go grey market to save a couple hundred on a $2,000 lens and then gripe a ton when they cannot have it fixed under warranty at a stateside repair depot. At the end of the day, warranty is in the price: you get what you pay for in that regard just like everything else.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 02:16:22 pm
content: Steve,It would help if we knew where you are. But there have been some GOOD deals on used LeCroy scopes on E-bay lately!LECROY LC534AL 1 GHz / Single 2-GS/s 8 Mpt, Quad 500 GS/s Color Digital O'scope with Soft Options: WP01, 02, DDM, CKIO, PRML > HARD options: CPUP, VGAC, GPIB, R232, CLBZ, FD01, GP01, CENT, CKTR, I2Csold for $549. 30 day warranty, same as Rigol.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 02:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 22, 2014, 11:52:42 amYeah, well, you might want to read this:http://www.siglent.com/en/other/single.aspx?nodecode=119004001001So Siglent seems to think that their kit comes with some warranty (they should know, shouldn't they?), and I can't see any exclusions saying that this is only true for devices bought outside China. Care to elaborate where it says that kit bought from China is 'bare hardware'?QuoteThat's standard if you buy from a manufacturer as OEM, i.e. you're selling their gear under your own label (and thus you become responsible to the end user re. warranty and product defects). Sometimes manufacturers also allow larger customers to buy kit at reduced prices without warranty, but then the contract explicitly re-sale.I hope you don't want to suggest you can't see a difference between B2B (Business to Business) trading and selling to end users?QuoteThese sellers are selling gear under the Siglent label, and asuming the kit is genuine, then buyers can rightfully expect that it is no different than the same item bought in a shop around the corner. Since the kit carries the Siglent label it remains the responsibility of Siglent to honor their warranty.And if some Chinese sellers are be selling ilegitimate gear (i.e. factory rejects or something else which isn't the real deal) then it's up to Siglent to act against these dealers, or they risk loosing the bit of reputation they have built up so far.QuoteAnd I don't like smart-asses who can't see the difference between B2B deals and selling to end users and are pulling 'facts' from behind. Obviously Siglent has a bit more confidence in their kit than you have, as they are offering a three year warranty. And unlike Rigol there's no exclusion for kit bought from markets other than your home market so I can't see what's so bad when people buy Siglent kit from China and expect it to work and if it doesn't expect Siglent to fix it for them.Unless of course someone has a certain interest to spread FUD to increase their own sales. But certainly nobody would do that, would they? O0

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 02:35:51 pm
content: My DS1074Z has no smell. There must be something going on with your particular unit.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 02:45:11 pm
content: Quote from: Free Electron on June 22, 2014, 02:16:22 pmWell, most of the 'options' (i.e. WP01, WP02, CPUP, VGAC, GPIB, R232, CLBZ, FD01, GP01, CENT, I2C) are standard, and from the remaining three ones that are actually options (DDM, PMRL, CKTR) two are for hard disk diagnostics and pretty useless without the special probes. Only CKTR (External 10MHz Clock Time Reference) could be somewhat useful. None of the really interesting options are included.Considering that this thing also has a color CRT which after roughly 16 years has probably been worn out I'm not sure that is such a good deal for what was essentially the low end version of the LC Series. I'd rather wait and at least get a LC574 (1GHz 4GS/s) or LC584 (1GHz 8GS/s), or better a LC6xx (which has a LCD monitor instead of the CRT).But I overall agree, there are some really good deals of one is patient. With some luck one could get a nice LeCroy WaveRunner 1 or 2, and even the WavePro 900 Series has come down in price. Ebay is full with tons of overpriced gear, and some sellers may be open to reasonable offers.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 02:54:44 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 22, 2014, 02:28:13 pmso keep buying from small chinese resellers and keep yelling at your local resellers "fix it!!!"if the local importer has a agreement with the manufacturer that he'll take the risks of RMAs , then that reseller will never ever fix your device bought in china under warranty.and i know very well the difference between B2B and and user sales... but in many the cases those small chinese re-sellers are selling exactly those units without warranty (coming from special agreements with the manufacturer) to end users.i'm not speaking abut particular brands, but in general.and don't be afraid... i'm not trying to increase anyone's sales.... i'm not in the business (and actually never was in the test gear business).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 03:19:37 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 22, 2014, 02:54:44 pmI rarly buy items costing more than say $10 from Chinese sellers (and they rarely sell the kit I need anyways). I did buy two Siglent items (a scope and an AWG) from China as throw-away items (I certainly wouldn't bother to send it back for repair). Needless to say that Siglent has confirmed via email that both devices carry their warranty.QuoteIf the local importer has an agreement with the manufacturer then he has to service all devices that are covered by this agreement. And if this agreement doesn't cover devices bought from China then fine.This doesn't however change the fact that the manufacturer still has to honor their warranty. If this means that the device which was bought from China has to be sent back to China then fair enough.QuoteThat may well be, but then this is an issue between these resellers and manufacturers. Especially since they apparently get the kit from somewhere, so the manufacturer does have some role in these units getting onto the open market.All this however doesn't make it unreasonable for a buyer to expect that the kit he bought from China is essentially the same as the item sold locally (aside from mains cable and language of manuals maybe), and it certainly doesn't mean that a buyer has to 'know' or automatically asume that the item is without warranty just because it's from China. Even less so when the kit in question is made by a Chinese manufacturer like Siglent.Unless of course you want to suggest that all Chinese are criminals. A view I certainly wouldn't support.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 05:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: MJR on June 22, 2014, 02:03:39 pmThat's quite interesting!Well, yeah I am planning to let this thing run on workdays when I'm not here, until the last day of the "14 days return, no questions asked" period and see whether this gets better at all.Just one more annoyance added:I tried to use a 4GB USB stick in the front USB port."Flash driver FileSystem init failured!" (sic)I found a thread here about it not supporting exFAT, well it wasn't formatted with that, but for good measure, I re-formatted with FAT32.Still can't use it. Fail.I'm not going to waste hours on researching what magic tricks to perform to make that thing use USB sticks... maybe I'll try 1..2 other sticks if I find them, but if that doesn't work, the thing gets kicked out. Just embarrassing. The old cheapo hantek handled "any usb stick", even bigger ones.EDIT:Another stick, 8GB verbatim, worked. I noticed that it was formatted with 4KB block size instead of 32KB of the 4GB sandisk that doesn't work, so I reformatted the latter also with 4KB, to no avail.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 08:37:01 pm
content: Hold! Let's get back on track. Has anyone else truly had an obnoxious smell from their Rigol?Is this a one off or have other owners experienced this?

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 08:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on June 22, 2014, 08:37:01 pmI meanwhile found a comment in a thread about the 1000 series @ German forum mikrocontroller.net, where one guy also mentioned the smell (described as "cheap PC power supply") as one of the downsides.A pal mentioned some initially strong smell of his old design 50MHz rigol.Note that I am more sensitive to smell than most people.The rigol smell is not subtle IMO, though. Especially not acceptable to have around all the time where I *live* and eat... If I had an extra room for my project stuff I might mind less.Although the smell is not even remotely as bad as some of those typical 5A 30V linear china lab PSU I owned for a while, those things gave me instant headaches (repeatably) so I had to put them in the cellar until sold... o_O

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 08:54:10 pm
content: DS2072 here for half a year no smells ever.

author: MJR
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 10:32:59 pm
content: I know some have suggested used options, and that may be a possibility. I would tend to favor factory reconditioned items over simply used ones. You get a warranty etc.Also, one does get smells from used equipment too. In fact, I can remember one CRT that was only in use about 30 days with a smoker. Once it heated up it was like having a Marlboro in my face. With your sensitivities I would stick to new gear even with the possibility of a stinker.But I know Agilent has a factory recon store link from their website. I almost pulled the trigger on one, but it was still quite a bit more than I wanted to spend.

author: TinkeringSteve
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 10:48:00 pm
content: Quote from: MJR on June 22, 2014, 10:32:59 pmYeah, smoker's gear is unbearable ;-) If an eb*y seller does not mention this, it's usually my first question. Have you ever looked inside an old smoker's TV? Cruuuuust... blargh.

author: Stephen Durr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 11:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on June 22, 2014, 08:37:01 pmI have a DS1104Z and it does not smell.

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 02:37:40 am
content: Too bad you can't open the scope up to see if you can identify where the smell is coming from.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 10:09:03 am
content: some people might be extremely sensitive to the stuff evaporating from plastics (not their fault, it's not even a disease - they are simply sensitive), so for them the product smells like shit, but others might not notice anything unusual with the very same product.the only good way would be to make a "smell test" comparison with another rigol, if the other rigol is not smelly for the same person , then i would suggest to return the smelly one (if there is such a possibility).

author: electrophiliate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 10:25:55 am
content: It has worn off now, but if I recall, the new plastic smell of the Rigol DS1052E DSO was sort of pleasant (different series but still).

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 12:11:55 pm
content: Quote from: eurofox on June 22, 2014, 09:56:30 amAnd there is still no smell from it :-)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 12:21:21 pm
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on June 22, 2014, 05:46:31 pmWelcome to USB, it's a dodgy, dodgy world. Find a stick or two which work, use them exclusively.I know people who do this with CNC equipment which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2014, 12:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: TinkeringSteve on June 22, 2014, 10:48:00 pmI got (and fixed) a 21" black and white TV when I was about 14. Came from a smoker, the smell when it warmed up would kill you. I cleaned a small spot on the screen, and suddenly had a white area. I then realised the whole screen was yellow and set about cleaning the rest of the nicotine off. Yuck.