Pronouncing 0.15% as "Point fifteen percent" instead of "Point one five percent" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2019, 11:57:40 pm
content: I notice that in a lot of non-technical content (often american TV), that when decimal number are verbalised (I'll take 0.15% as my example), they'll say " point fifteen percent" instead of " point one five percent".I've been getting increasingly curious where this tendency is coming from. Does the USA Elementary School Maths Curriculum actively allow (or even encourage) this?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 12:04:32 am
content: go outside

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 12:21:37 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on October 20, 2019, 12:04:32 am

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 12:27:00 am
content: I'm not a native English speaker and I do pronounce it as "point fifteen percent". Not sure why. I don't think anyone taught me that specifically.It is possible because in Russian it would be "fifteen hundredths of a percent". So the word "fifteen" is verbalized as is.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 12:47:45 am
content: I guess when you say point fifteen, hundredths is implied.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 01:21:36 am
content: Fifteen is just a word expression of two digits. Where it is found in an expression is reasonably inconsequential.If you want to get picky - you should stop saying that WWII ended in nineteen forty five.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 03:13:01 am
content: I've always said "point fifteen", saying "point one five" sounds long winded and strange to me. That said, you could say either one and and I'd understand it just fine and probably not think anything of it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 03:55:19 am
content: It's always been taught to say "point-one-five" rather than "point-fifteen".A good reason for this is to avoid accidental mishearing or confusion between 15 and 0.15.In most cases, reading the digits sounds most natural. For example, 1.25% is "one point two five percent".(If speaking over the radio and correct reception is critical, one would pronounce 0.15 as "zero decimal one five".)

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 04:19:39 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 20, 2019, 03:55:19 amand fifty doesn't sound that different from fifteen

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 05:26:08 am
content: Use your preferred method using the same pattern from 0.15% to 0.01%. Is there a value where the pattern doesn't work well anymore?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 06:57:31 am
content: I'm a point one five man myself.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 06:59:00 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 20, 2019, 03:55:19 amYes, this is what I was taught as well.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:01:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 20, 2019, 06:57:31 amThis is the only way it makes logical sense to me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:06:54 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on October 20, 2019, 07:01:48 amFifteenth et.al relate to whole numbers only, or parts of whole numbers like Nineteen Fifteenth. When you are dealing with the decimal point you have entered the realm of scientific notation and it's important to be precise. I think it's a nice logical place for lexiconal (did I just invent a word?) split.

author: austfox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:18:08 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 20, 2019, 03:55:19 amI think it’s more to do with the confusion between 15 and 50, or 17 and 70 etc.If you listen to a lot of air traffic, you’ll find they are just as guilty of not speaking each digit, which is against all protocol.For non-safety critical stuff I don’t see the problem.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:21:19 am
content: When I read the title I read it as point one five... No idea why but I always say each digit when It comes to decimals. Would you say point oh oh fifteen for .0015? Maybe but I wouldn't.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:49:44 am
content: "Point one five" if for no other reason that I cannot be mistaken, particularly if you're on the phone."Fifteen" sounds too much like "Fifty".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:54:02 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on October 19, 2019, 11:57:40 pmIt is annoying and inconsistent.How would such people pronounce 0.01%? Perhaps 0.01% as "zero point one percent"?Or perhaps people should pronounce 2.150% as "two point one fifty percent".(I do hope it is unnecessary to explain that 0.15 is not the same as 0.150)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 08:26:31 am
content: meh, i'm still trying to work out why they keep using the 'hundred' unit after they reach 1000 "15 hundred" etc.When most other places would say 1 point 5k or 1 thousand 5

author: jhpadjustable
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 08:57:36 am
content: Our exceptional number system is base 100

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 08:59:52 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 20, 2019, 08:26:31 amAnd then a quarter of the world's population uses "lakh" and "crore" for 105and 107respectively.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:06:19 am
content: I would definitely say point one five.Using the "fifteen" method then what is a half? Is it point five or point fifty?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:26:13 am
content: Quote from: Fred27 on October 20, 2019, 09:06:19 amIt cold be either, or point "five hundred" or "point five thousand".A better example is to ask how people would pronounce 0.1, 0.01, 0.001, 0.0001 etc. The twats will say they are all "point one"

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 01:34:27 pm
content: I would express it as "point one five percent".I just cope with alternate forms of expression - so long as there is no ambiguity. If I have any doubt, I will seek clarification.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 01:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 20, 2019, 03:55:19 amOne five leaves other room for error. It's not going to be perfect either way.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 03:52:36 pm
content: I usually say "point one five" myself, having mostly heard that form from native speakers. But I don't know if it's the correct way of saying it in English. Or maybe it could also depend on local variants of English?In other languages, saying the decimals as a number is certainly not uncommon. In French for instance, we'd say "zéro virgule quinze" (we don't omit the leading zero), and never "zéro virgule un cinq", spelling any number digit by digit being very unnatural. But it's relatively common in English, and in other contexts than decimals too.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:39:14 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 20, 2019, 03:52:36 pmIt is correct English, but some people get it wrong.In French (and any other language) how would you say 0.1 and 0.01 and 0.001?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 20, 2019, 07:39:14 pm"One tenth", "one hundredth" and "one thousands" in Russian. Anything else will get you strange looks.In some informal conversational contexts even "one" can be dropped.

author: Twoflower
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 07:55:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 20, 2019, 07:39:14 pmGerman:0.1: Null Komma Eins (zero point one)0.01: Null Komma Null Eins (zero point zero one)0.001: Null Komma Null Null Eins (zero point zero zero one)But in this case also ein Zehntel (one tenth), ein Hundertstel (one hundredth) and ein Tausendstel (one thousands) can be used.In German the point and comma are switched. And the leading zero is included.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 08:45:20 pm
content: I was taught that decades, fractions etc shouldn’t be used after the decimal point. Except with currency!515.15 - is fivehundredandfifteenpointone fiveThat’s all

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:01:15 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 20, 2019, 07:46:37 pmQuote from: Twoflower on October 20, 2019, 07:55:22 pmEven though it seems unpronounceable, it would be "one thousandth" in English

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:10:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 20, 2019, 07:39:14 pmzéro virgule unzéro virgule zéro unzéro virgule zéro zéro unYes you found a case that's similar to English, because here this is the only way to make it non ambiguous. The "leading" zeros in the decimals are of course all significant, and they can't be expressed by a single number.That said, 0.015 would be said: "zéro virgule zéro quinze". So only the leading zeros are spelled out individually (because they can't be expressed any other way).Expressing this as a fraction is correct, but it would be weird to read the above as 15/1000. We usually express numbers as fractions only if they are written as fractions to begin with.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:11:43 pm
content: Strictly speaking, 0.15% should be pronounced point one, five percent, but I wouldn't bother correcting anyone for saying point fifteen percent, because I would know what they mean. I don't see the point in being overly pedantic and all it would do is annoy people.By the way, I would pronounce 0.0015% as, nought, point, oh, oh, one, five percent or nought point double zero, five percent.

author: jhpadjustable
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on October 20, 2019, 08:45:20 pmAndfifteen? I was taught that was vulgar and improper in modern English, all that fancy talk about 24 blackbird pies notwithstanding. Maybe it's a Commonwealth thing. But "y" between each component is right and proper in Spanish.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:28:37 pm
content: Cero punto quince in Spanish....at least in Mexico.The Spanish language deviates, sometimes significantly, across the different world regions where it is spoken.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:38:30 pm
content: Quote from: jhpadjustable on October 20, 2019, 09:26:46 pmEvery British person you meet is likely to say 515 as "five hundred and fifteen".In America it may be customary to drop the "and" and just say "five hundred fifteen" but that definitely doesn't sound right to British ears.For example:https://youtu.be/u84-Nl5WjSA

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 09:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on October 19, 2019, 11:57:40 pmDefinitely not. Some people say it, but it is decidedly frowned upon. It is like nails on a chalkboard to me.Besides, it’s just asking for more Verizon math (original recording|companion blog)...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 10:31:28 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 20, 2019, 09:01:15 pmWell, yes, exactly. And I think this has huge influence on this whole discussion. The versions that are widely used are more pronounceable ones.Same goes for 1500 as "fifteen hundred". It is just easier to pronounce. But if you try to do the same in Russian, nobody will understand you.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 10:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 20, 2019, 10:31:28 pmThis one is actually interesting. If I have 1500 widgets, I will say that I have one thousand five hundred widgets. But if I want to say Reginald Pole was born in 1500, I will say he was born in the year fifteen hundred.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 10:46:15 pm
content: If I was ever to hear someone say "point fifteen" in person then I think it would be annoying enough for me to correct them, especially if we are talking anything scientific or engineering.There are many other thing I'd let slide, but this one I think would be over the line for me.

author: notsob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 11:14:25 pm
content: And in some instances, especially for clarity over radio comms, the "point" is verbally replaced by "decimal"i.e. zero decimal one five

author: Johnboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 02:35:00 am
content: I was taught to say "Five dollars and fifteen cents."When I'm standing at point of sale, the cashier will say, "That will be five fifteen."We both know that whatever I just bought doesn't cost five hundred fifteen dollars. Generally the decimal isn't mentioned.If I have to say 0.15, it's probably more clear to say "zero point one five" than "fifteen hundredths of one percent".If I have to say 0.0000015, it might be easier to say "one and one-half millionths of one percent". If I say "one point five millionths of one percent" there's quite a bit of room for error in comprehension.Actually, it's all pretty bad.(Edited for additional cipher.)

author: Moshly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:22:35 am
content: Actually, Numberphlie tackled this a while back ->And

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 01:32:57 pm
content: Well, there are obviously differences between languages and even differences between different "versions" of English. I don't see a problem with that.Frankly, "point fifteen" may sound weird or completely incorrect to some, but it's perfectly understandable, and I think, not ambiguous either. And yes English is currently used by many different people with different variants. Of course that tends to butcher the english language a bit, but OTOH, this is currently what makes worldwide communication possible. This forum wouldn't even be close to what it is if that weren't the case.As coppercone2 said...

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 03:01:57 pm
content: That is the reason for scientific and engineering notation.And in some instances people have already incorporated into their language.For instance; if a doctor prescribes you an antibiotic, he will not instruct you to take zero dot 25 grams every 4 hours, but rather 250 milligrams every four hours.And people fully understand it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 06:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 21, 2019, 01:32:57 pmThat's true, but it makes me think the speaker might not distinguish between 0.1 and 0.01. Yes, that would be grossly ignorant and innumerate - but many people are exactly that.Well-known special cases are of course excepted, e.g. currency such as £5.15.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 07:33:49 pm
content: Currency is different because the decimal denotes the change from pounds, pennies or dollars to cents etc.I still don't see the point in arguing about it. Perhaps if it's in a technical discussion, then it may be worthwhile asking for confirmation, but don't bother in informal situations.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 08:19:51 pm
content: The Verizon Math thing I linked above exemplifies precisely the confusion that dumb people get into with decimals in currency. That’s why we exactly should not be teaching that the decimal point denotes a change in denomination.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 08:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 21, 2019, 08:19:51 pmThat's how I always thought of it and never had any problems. A hundred pennies in a pound, so £1.50 means one pound and fifty pence. No one would say "one point five pounds", even though it would still be right. In the olden days there used to be 240 pennies in a pound, but only really old people remember that.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 09:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2019, 08:33:39 pmUnfortunately for that position, many restaurants now have menus containing prices like £4.5 instead of £4.50.I don't like it, but it isn't wrong.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 09:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2019, 09:29:48 pmSoon it will be £5

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 09:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2019, 09:29:48 pmWhere? I eat out regularly and have never seen that before.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 10:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2019, 09:45:33 pmUpscale or "in" places... I surely don't see these in mom and pop's restaurants.To the main question... I say "point fifteen", just like I would in my mother language.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 11:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 21, 2019, 10:07:37 pmPrecisely. A few examples, not mom 'n' pop, but not high end. Hipster maybe...http://www.eatdrinkbristolfashion.co.uk/root/#rootmenu-sectionhttps://www.pigstyuk.com/menushttps://www.theathenian.co.uk/price-listhttps://7luckygods.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Seven-Lucky-Gods-Menu.pdfhttps://cdn.frontburnr.co.uk/uploads/files/pacotapas/SKM_C30819101822080.pdfhttps://static1.squarespace.com/static/57e6b229b8a79b8ba3fd8aa5/t/5d5572033c5dc50001fdcb16/1565880837465/August+Restaurant+Menu.pdfQuoteAnd for x.015%?

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 11:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2019, 11:02:34 pm"X point fifteen per mill."

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 11:33:43 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2019, 09:29:48 pmI'd call it "wrong".No matter how mathematically correct not doing so may be, I would like to think providing two decimal digits is simply thecivilisedway to express currency amounts. Leaving it without the trailing zero is, IMHO, a simple result of lazy spreadsheet habits.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 11:35:31 pm
content: On a tangent, does anyone have a problem if you see a price of something sold at, for example, a rate of $1.2475 per kg?

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 11:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 21, 2019, 11:35:31 pmThat sort of thing is an absolute necessity, especially when dealing with SMD resistors and other things that can cost less than a cent each.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 02:33:44 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2019, 11:02:34 pmThat's the word I was looking for! I also have seen places without decimal places altogether. I think it gives the impression that one is too cool to care for small change...Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2019, 11:02:34 pmPoint zero fifteen. It is all a colloquialism, really. Besides, in portuguese it would be thecorrectdecimal separator comma. <duck and run>

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 04:40:24 am
content: QuoteWe'll never get rid of the penny, even after physical cash is gone and a loaf of bread costs 40 dollars.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:27:42 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on October 21, 2019, 11:27:32 pmIf someone said that to me I would have to ask them what they meant, because I wouldn't have a clue. Or simply ignore the number as being to boring to think about

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:31:16 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 21, 2019, 11:33:43 pmIn restaurants it is more likely a hipster fashion statement. I very much doubt that any spreadsheet would come up with a number that precise, nor that any number would simply be copied to a menu.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:47:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 20, 2019, 07:06:54 amNot really, that would be 1.5e-1 or 15e-2 !

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 09:31:08 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2019, 11:02:34 pmThat's terrible, apart from the one which is just in pounds, which is definitely acceptable. There's no mention of the currency. I'd love to troll them by paying in Euros and give them €4.05, where it says 4.5.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 09:59:35 am
content: Do not forget the following ways of saying, for example 0.015....“Zero point Zero One Five”“Naught point Zero One Five”“Naught point Oh One Five”“Zero Decimal Zero One Five”There are many ways to say the same thing. The rule is to ensure the audience understands the terms usedFraser

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 02:36:54 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2019, 08:33:39 pmThe problem is when the need arises to discuss fractional amounts of the smaller unit. Many people don’t truly understand the broader concept of the decimal, so when you talk about a fractional penny, their brain short circuits and you get Verizon Math, where 5 customer “service” reps in a row could not understand the difference between “$0.002” and “0.002¢”. To them, the decimal place itself cemented the units as dollars to the left and cents to the right of the decimal, regardless of which unit they actually uttered. That’s why I think we should not be expressly teaching that the decimal point is a unit delimiter, because a decimal can be used to subdivide any unit, even one without named subunits.I know, weshouldn’thave to think about such absurd misinterpretations of basic math concepts, but in practice, we do.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 02:47:18 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on October 21, 2019, 09:45:33 pmIt’s very common in posh venues, or places that wishfully pretend they are. So far, I’ve encountered it in 4 countries that I can remember (USA, UK, CH, and F), so I’m thinking it’s here to stay.While I appreciate the mathematical correctness of it, I just find it so silly and pretentious that to me, it slightly downgrades the place.(Note that I don’t mind omitted cents ifallthe prices are integers. Here in CH, on menus and signs with items that have cents, you often see the integer prices written as “4.–”, which I find rather elegant, as it’s much easier to skim than “.00”)Quote from: Brumby on October 21, 2019, 11:33:43 pmOh, believe me, it’shighlydeliberate.As tggzzz said, it’s definitely a hipster statement: “We’re too cool for zeros.”

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 10:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 22, 2019, 09:59:35 amA nice rule but i hold myself. to a higher standad than that its not enuf for the audience to eventually piece together what you mean it should; also be as effortless and smooth to understand as wel

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 02:11:06 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 22, 2019, 02:47:18 pmI could ask: "What is the world coming to?"........ but I don't think I want to know.