How do you protect yourself from ebay sellers selling broken gear as used? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 03:40:17 pm
content: Is the fact that something is sold "used" mean a buyer can always return it, if it doesn't function fully, even if the seller claims they said it was untested in the ad. (but also claimed it was 'used' and not 'for parts of not working'?)Especially if the piece of hardware uses parts which are 'unobtainium', do you think it should be returnable at the seller's expense if its sold as 'used' but is actually broken enough so that when the buyer attempts to use it or test it its broken and requires repair?That is the way I interpret the ebay terms.The need of "specialized equipment" to test or use electronics doesn't absolve the seller of responsibility for an item working if its sold as "used", or shouldn't. If they don't have the ability to test something at some basic level, (especially given that now they can usually find beginner's hardware on ebay adequate to verify basic operation for very little) they shouldn't sell it as 'working'.That needs to be a clear boundary there.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 04:27:51 pm
content: My method is to ask the seller lots of questions.And still, I have bought broken and none repairable equipment on ebay and it sucks!On the other side I have found almost "like new" equipment so cheap, I sometimes could not believe it.So, at least for me, it has gone both ways and is overall in good balance.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 04:46:03 pm
content: I take it as given that it probably doesn't work. If perhaps 75% of the dollar value of what I spend results in working equipment, then I'm satisfied enough. For most of the rest I'm able to repair it either relatively easily, or it becomes yet-another-not-enough-time-but-it's-interesting-so-nothing-lost project. I justify it as "professional development".Being ebay, a couple things I look at are the overall rating of the seller along with overall volume. High-volume sellers might not be able to answer detailed questions, but if their ratings are good, then the equipment might be workable.Low-volume sellers may be able to answer questions, but half the time they have no idea what they are selling anyway.Study the pictures closely. Clear? High-resolution? Proper details? I don't trust anything with stock photographs. A proper listing should have at least 5 or 6 pictures showing all the controls, ports, and labels.In one case I returned equipment to one of those used test equipment sellers. They clearly called it functional when it wasn't, and they left other things out of the description that showed they hadn't tested it at all. It got returned at their expense. It didn't show up again on ebay, so I expect it got scrapped. Too bad, because I would have been willing to take a partial refund and fix it instead.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 05:16:36 pm
content: Answer to the title: don't be stupid or naive so do your research and homework!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 05:44:36 pm
content: For example, I would really like to get a precise universal counter and there are a few ones out there which are now many years old and when broken they are sometimes quite fixable and sometimes basically you need to combine several non-working units.Which in my opinion makes them almost worthless at that point. I think that if they are dishonest enough to sell a nonworking unit as working, they should expect to either get it back or eat the cost completely if you get it, have it be not working make a complaint to ebay, and it rules in your favor.So, recently I found a counter, made what I considered to be a fair offer on it- and wrote into the offer if it was working fully, (which "used" is suppose to imply so it was redundant, still, I can't afford to get stuck with a worthless piece of broken equipment at a working equipment price)if it was working which they said they wanted to acceptif I accepted that they had not been able to test it, also. Then I made it clear that a condition of the sale was that when I got it I would test it using the procedure in the service manual and if it didn't work didn't want it. Then they balked.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 06:04:23 pm
content: Why would you need to protect yourself? If it's broken, it doesn't fit the "used" description, so the seller has to refund.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 07:51:44 pm
content: As an occasional seller of used gear, Ebay's options don't give me any good options. I wish there was another category - "used with defects" or something similar.Technically "used" has to be "fully functional" with only minor cosmetic problems. To use the automobile world as something almost everyone can identify with - if I had a car with a perfect engine, perfect transmission, perfect suspension, good tires, perfect heat and air conditioning with good upholstery and paint, no dents or missing trim, but a non-working radio I couldn't call it used.But to call this car non-working for parts only isn't right or descriptive either. Anyone looking for a working car would tend not to even look at the description of this car. In fact many would use Ebay's filtering functions to eliminate this listing from their search as they have no interest in mechanical repair.In the test equipment world I don't have the equipment to fully verify everything on anything but the simplest of equipment. Even there I can't provide traceability on calibration. So technically I can't sell as used a multimeter, even if I have checked every range and function and they all seem to be accurate. I don't have documented proof that it meets original specifications.The way I deal with this is to list what I have as "used" and describe what I have tested and what the results are. In some cases this means little or nothing, but in most cases I can verify that the equipment is generally working as I would expect it to. Pictures of the meter performing key functions are included. I only use the "not working, for parts only" category for instruments that truly aren't working.But I don't allow returns and this is stated in the listing. My thinking is that I have made very clear to the buyer what he or she is getting. The prices I get are lower than many ask. This is the trade off that I and the buyer are making. I get less money, but don't have to set up as a full refurbishment shop. The buyer pays less, but takes some chance that a function that is of interest that has not been tested is not working.So far this has worked for me. I don't know what would happen in case of a dispute since I haven't yet had any.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 08:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 15, 2017, 07:51:44 pm"With Defects" really means "Requires Repair". There already is a category for that: "For parts or repair". You can describe the specific defects whether large or small, in as much detail as you feel you need to, in the item description. Then the buyer can decide whether they are acceptable or not, and bid/buy accordingly.Used means used. Maybe with scratches, wear and tear, etc. but fully functional is not optional. For anything sold as used, the buyer is fully protected by ebay's buyer protection. As a seller, you need to understand that listing as used means you assume the risk of the buyer invoking buyer protection. Price your item accordingly. I for one am very glad that ebay is super strict about this and backs buyers when they get screwed by sellers who are either too stupid or too greedy to properly list a broken or unknown condition item in the parts/repair category. It is far more difficult for a buyer to succeed with buyer protection claim in the parts/repair category.To answer the OP question again: you are protected. If it doesn't work then it doesn't fit the "Used" description and ebay will back you.(Dave himself learned this the hard way a few years ago, selling a scope. He tested it and thought it worked great, listed it as used. The buyer found a functional defect and invoked buyer protection, and Dave took the hit. Big thread here somewhere about that.)

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 08:49:23 pm
content: As a buyer it is always caveat emptor.As a seller you cannot win, ebay is against you from day one.I sell a few things on ebay and I buy loads of things. Favourite search string (faulty, spare, spares, repair, repairs, part, parts).I sold a laser cutter that was damaged in shipping, it had dents but was absolutely fully functional. It was pick up only so before anyone paid they could see.I still got non +ve feedback because the buyer complained about it having dents.despite the fact that every single dent was photographed and documented in the listing and that he had seen it before buying.The world is full of morons and all of them hang out on ebay.

author: ChrisLX200
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 09:10:28 pm
content: I was interested in a 465B listed as 'used', and the photos just showed the thing with no display. I asked if the display was working, and would he mind just switching it on - and if it was not too much trouble could he also connect the probe comp to channel 1. He replied he was in no position to test, not even to switch it on which he refused point blank despite insisting that other  items from the same source were fine. Needless to say I would have nothing to do with it.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 09:18:23 pm
content: When there is a grey area between working and non-working sellers should probably sell as 'for parts or non working" to protect themselves. A while back I bought a GPS that it turned out had a major design flaw (according to the chip manufacturer, Ublox)In theory it worked but it worked very badly.So I opened an "item not as claimed" case and had my money refunded.I agree with CatalinaWow in that it would make sense to have an additional "Used with issues(enumerated)" for the cases where some issues would otherwise become potential problems. I would very much like that because that information would make it much easier to make a good guess as to if something was fixable or not.Quote from: Mjolinor on November 15, 2017, 08:49:23 pm

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 10:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: macboy on November 15, 2017, 08:32:09 pmPerhaps in your world all defects require repair. You would of course fix the radio in the car I describe. Many others would never use the radio anyway and drive this excellent vehicle for many years.With the complexity of many pieces of test equipment it is virtually impossible to assure that "everything" works. Dozens of switches, many with dozens of positions and dependencies on state transitions. Combinatorially impossible to switch between them.But you are absolutely right. Sooner or later someone is going to feel that they can get one over on me and invoke Ebay buyer protection. And when that happens I will probably just stop selling the excess gear I have. And there will be more threads about how there isn't anything good out there for sale. Congratulations to whoever does that. Maybe I will post pictures of the stuff going to the dump just to entertain the crowd here.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2017, 10:45:50 pm
content: I use the German eBay a lot.Many sellers here put items on auction, which they flag as "broken" but then in the description they say that it works or should work and that the "broken" status is for their own protection, as they don't want to be liable or because they cannot fully test it.While I can understand this position, I imagine that you could use this apparently convincing explanation to actually sell broken stuff. So in the end you don't know what the real status is.So my approach has always been:1) Ask as many questions as required and try to gt to know the seller - why is he selling the device, what devices does he normally sell, etc.2) Do the homework and get to know the most common or probable failures of the device.3) Never bid more than you can accept to loose on a broken device.There have been some tempting auctions, but without any certainty of the defect, I could have been looking at a defect of unobtainable components - total lost. The risk was just not worth it.On other occasions I have gambled. So far, so good - never got anything really bad and globally the good deals more than make up for the bad ones.But, whenever I gambled, I was pretty sure I knew what the problem was and how to fix it.Regards,Vitor

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2017, 12:22:06 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on November 15, 2017, 10:45:50 pmI totally concur so far. Then, I also take a look at the exact wording and the other activities of the seller. I mean, I see 'untested' as a 'maybe', but if someone makes well founded statements about more complicated gear and suddenly is supposedly unable to do a function test on a DMM, he wants to sell you a parrot that will not be talking anymore.I bought a really exotic instrument, that is a stochastic-ergodic functionmeter from the austrian company Norma.A few tests showed the bird to be deceased beyond doubt. It was advertised as tested. The seller maintained thatthe neighbour, who is a retired electrician, had proclaimed it working.I also experienced the contrary. I bought a complex signal generator, which was DOA. I contacted the seller, who had previously (in the auction) said, that there is no warranty and no takeback. He gave me a full refund and said, that I should keep the instrument. Later I gut it to run.Of course both buying and selling instruments and related articles on Ebay is a minefield per se.There are very serious people out there and with some of them I have worked repeatedly. And there are those fellows who steal something out of a scrap container and try to sell it as working. Some even knof definitely that it is not. Most of them you can weed out with a few checks. Often they give themselves away by a simplistic language and lack of grammar (or even unable to type the name of the company correctly). Then you can assume that some (why isn't there a emoji with a fez?) is trying to rip you off.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2017, 07:08:22 am
content: For sketchy sellers always use paypal, then you can file a paypal dispute against them. It locks up their account for at least a week or two, so they tend to give in fairly easily. Most of the losses I've incurred were due to shipping though, lost a 7.5 digit solartron that way. Also only buy badly broken if you have a service manual or experience with that device.When selling on fleaBay these days I simply try to include a full service history in the device description, together with current state. If unknown or too complicated to verify completely (e.g. telecom analysers) I sell as-is. Really broken equipment with unobtanium components I gut and sell in parts.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2017, 05:44:46 pm
content: Use PayPal and a credit card to make the purchase. If it turns up broken or doesn’t work, hit PayPal first. If that fails, it’s not yours so dispute the transaction with the CC company.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2017, 05:54:21 pm
content: The rules are quite clear. A used item should at least work to a satisfactory degree. If it does not, then it must be described as faulty, for parts, or the like.Even if sold as non working it must be complete unless the missing parts are stated.Misleading listings are also prohibited, for example "Keysight oscilloscope, probes" where only the probes are offered.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2017, 06:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 16, 2017, 05:44:46 pmBetter check your CC terms & conditions because this double insurance is no longer available for the one I have.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2017, 01:58:41 am
content: I think both buyers and sellers should do their best to disclose and also ask questions that identify potential problem areas, before the sale goes through.Quote from: HalFET on November 16, 2017, 07:08:22 am

author: Oldtestgear
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:41:26 am
content: I sell a few surplus items on eBay. I only offer equipment "for parts or repair" but state exactly what testing I have done in the listing. I might be able to fully test something but it is normally too time consuming & most people will ignore the information. Most buyers seem to accept this & I do achieve good selling prices for most of the stuff I list.As a buyer I expect that "used" means exactly what eBay states unless the seller is more specific in the listing about the item. If all else fails then reject it & return. eBay is always on the buyers side in these situations. Have I been burned? Of course but not too often. Fortunately.Phil

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 01:02:43 am
content: Quote from: Oldtestgear on November 18, 2017, 09:41:26 amI feel a lot of sellers are trying to manipulate the situation a bit. They'll list the item as "used", but mention that it's sold "as is" or with very basic testing. If it's something like a functioning multimeter with one socket damaged and that's clearly being stated, that's fine. If it's a multimeter and the readings turn out to be wildly out of spec, that's on the seller. You shouldn't sell it as used if you can't confirm basic operation, as that's part of the eBay used definition.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 01:13:56 am
content: I never protect myself from ebay seller selling broken gear to me.I deliberately buy broken gear to fix it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 01:22:25 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 19, 2017, 01:09:04 amStill, some people prefer to sell everything as is and let other people find out. It's not an unusual model, not in electronics and not elsewhere.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 02:17:54 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 15, 2017, 03:40:17 pmNo, not necessarily. Regardless of what ebay/Paypal policies say, they don't trump your country's consumer laws.For example, in Australia, anything bought at an auction (including online auctions) comes with no consumer guarantees. This means even if the item is broken, faulty or not as described, according to the law the seller has no recourse to either return the item to the seller or seek a refund. However ebay or Paypal may offer a remedy to the buyer, but that's up to them.However making a "purchase" is covered by consumer laws and in such cases, the seller must offer a remedy (and can't fob you off to the manufacturer). They are also responsible for reasonable costs incurred when shipping the faulty item.Even international sellers who are selling a product in Australia are bound by the Australian Consumer Law, however enforcing consumer laws can be difficult or almost impossible when it comes to international sellers.At the end of the day, do your homework, study the photos carefully, ask the appropriate questions (never assume anything) and not only read what the seller has written carefully but consider what the sellerhasn'twritten. Deliberate omissions can be a sign that the seller knows there is something wrong but is failing to be honest about it.Also do some research and understand the consumer laws in your country and what rights you're entitled to. If your consumer law rights have been breached, the seller must offer a remedy and if they refuse to, ebay should be taking appropriate action.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 02:24:26 am
content: Typically, consumer laws set a minimum to protect buyers. It's quite rare for them to actually explicitly limit the rights of the consumer. Unless it's specifically prohibited to extend the rights of a buyer, eBay is likely free to do so. Their rules don't trump consumer laws, but work in conjunction with and on top of.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 03:45:07 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 19, 2017, 01:09:04 amIn two minutes you can verify that a piece of equipment is good working - used by my definition of used.There are few if any pieces of gear that you can verify in a short time to the Ebay definition - which requires that all ranges, all modes of operation, all sockets, all switch positions, all indicator lights and all display elements meet new specification.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 03:57:45 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 19, 2017, 03:45:07 amIf I sell a bit of equipment on ebay, I tend to tell them exactly what I've done to test it that way there can be no confusion. If I simply powered it on and verified that it appears to boot, I'll write that but I won't attest to the condition or all other functions which I haven't tested.I think phrases like "good working order" are rather arbitrary and have different meanings depending on who you ask. If I saw that on a listing, I'd expect all functions of the device to be verified in "good working order", not just some of it.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:14:14 am
content: It is always best to show another instrument hooked up as well and both show the same value.This increases the confidence level steeply.Not too many sellers do this on ebay and it is so simple.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:35:26 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on November 19, 2017, 10:14:14 amAs long as you make it abundantly clear that the other instrument is not for sale as part of that listing.I can't tell you how many times people have bid on my items without even reading the damn description! For example, I can write in large bold, red, underlined, text that an item is for pick-up only and shipping isnotavailable, yet I'll still get people messaging me asking how much shipping is to their location (after they've bid and the listing has closed).It's almost at the point where I could say the package is just a house brick, nothing more and someone will still bid on it. Yes, people are dumb!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:45:32 pm
content: It is a red flag for me when a seller insists that something is both "used" and "as-is"Thats kind of like wanting to "have your cake and eat it too". (US expression for unreasonable conditions)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 11:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 19, 2017, 03:45:07 amWell, yes - that is the problem; the fleabay definition of "used" is not very useful.For example, if I flog amscope showing the step response but I haven't twiddled all the input capacitance compensation caps, what should I do? Used seems appropriate, but it violates fleabags definition of used.It is probably easier to say "for spares or repairs", plus "will answer questions", plus "inspection welcome".

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 11:32:44 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 19, 2017, 10:45:32 pmI've never understood that myself, of course it's "as is", it wouldn't be as anything else. It's like saying "it comes as it comes", it's redundant.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 12:02:58 am
content: eBay clearly defines used as working and of acceptable quality. If it’s used as is with no refunds then the seller is at fault. I’ve had a couple of items refunded after they were listed similarly and turned out to be turds. As a seller I only sell stuff as for parts with “working but listed as for parts because no returns on old equipment” unless I’m actually providing a warranty with it.I’ve never sold anything duff or had a return in about 400 sales.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 08:54:10 am
content: They should remove all categories apart from "new" and "not new". Trying to define "used" or "for parts" to a line in the sand is ludicrous anyway, you will never please everybody.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 09:45:28 am
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 20, 2017, 08:54:10 amThat's too extreme. Suitable divisions could be along the lines of:newused full spec: I tried it and put it back in the boxusable: functions, but not everything is guaranteed to full specspares or repair: for cannibalisationThat won't solve all problems, of course, but it would be a useful addition. I would use "usable" to describe old scopes where I can't test everything.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 11:11:57 am
content: It won't solve any problems. If it aint new then it should be buyer beware.People expect different things from any attempt to generally specify.If I buy a stool and it has a foot missing it is scrap, if I buy an NVA with S parameter setup and it has a foot missing I wouldn't bother mentioning it.Same fault two different things. It is not possible to have general descriptions. It should be buyer beware and ask the questions beforehand. I buy and sell several things a week on ebay so not a big user but bigger than a lot and to me that definition is not something I even look at other than to remove new from the search results generally.

author: nes999
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2017, 08:55:53 pm
content: Ebay is tough on sellers. My father and I used to sell racing parts. We would buy race cars of various classes and strip them down for parts. We tested everything we sold. We had someone buy an dragster engine from us. After the auction closed he messaged us saying he didn't have a way to start it, could we help in out, blah blah sob story. We had only 1 around so we offered it for free. We ship him the engine and starter for the same price listed. Two weeks later he opens a claim saying the starter doesnt free. We fought eBay best we could and ended up getting hosed.The worst part is we had to pay return shipping.When we got the engine back we tore it back down to make sure it was still sellable. He ran it without coolant and burnt up the motor. So we went back to eBay to fight. EBay still sided with the buyer. That is the LAST time we ever helped someone. He also had the audacity to leave negative feedback for the transaction.We used to protect ourselves by testing everything and posting pictures of everything imaginable, insides of tires, insides of sockets, you name it we probably took pictures of it.Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk