Market for small production runs of less than 100 boards - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MUDGEL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 06:26:40 am
content: Hey guys.Do you think there’s a niche market in Australia for someone to make and populate small runs of say less than 100 boards.Using something like a Lite Placer to paste up and install partsannusing various home methods for etching boards etc.Now that I see it in writing I can already imagine the answers.Cheers,Mike Vogel

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 07:34:33 am
content: Your cost of doign this will render you uneconomic in Australia because your costs are too high.As for home etching, your in trouble doing before you start, just being able to do through hole plating requires quite a bit of plant..

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 07:54:10 am
content: Try to figure out what you would want to pay yourself and how much boards would cost at that rate. If that works out, start doing more research and add the costs of materials and tools.

author: MUDGEL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:37:07 am
content: Like I said in my opening post as soon as i saw my words in writing I realised what an impractical and uneconomical venture it would be.Still while ever it’s just noodling in my brain I’m safe.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:50:37 am
content: Quote from: MUDGEL on November 05, 2017, 08:37:07 amRunning a business can be horrible in that you often need to kill your darlings to succeed.

author: pilleya
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 12:50:52 pm
content: The assembly aspect would be nice and you have no chance of being able to get close to China PCB prices. You'd have to be able to match Chinas assembly prices which would he about $150 for 100 they can also get the passive components and connectors much much cheaper. I'm looking at a small pick and place myself.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 06:42:07 pm
content: Reselling China with a guarantee and decent QA might work.

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 06:44:00 pm
content: I wonder if there are any completely automated PCB manufacturing services using DLP technology for the mask, allowing you to scrap the need for masks.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 07:08:13 pm
content: It's a shitfight ....from personal experience.The market has been distorted by cheap asian products and services,

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 07:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on November 05, 2017, 07:08:13 pmIt's not a distortion. It is the market. If you feel it is just a distorition then you've not comprehended it correctly.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:39:28 pm
content: I belive we are at a point where the only way small manufacturers can bring their own costs down to compete with the likes of china, is to bring manufacturing in house. The cost saving is then in the fact that you can optimise for your product line, and you dont' have the costs associated with the knowledge transfer ( information ) between your company and the CM. Dont' under-estimate the cost in time it takes to sucessfully get all the information that is required from you to us.It also is quite possible for you to access the low cost component markets and pcb markets that the chinese do. You can get ahead if you make sensible investment in your own plant and being super organised.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 01:54:12 am
content: mrpackethead,while it is a reality out there ..it is never the less a distortion by the virtue of the fact that product manufactured in low labour cost and cheap money is being exported into a market with high labour costs and expensive money.We had a thriving PCB industry prior to the bastardisation of the late 1990s thanks to Mr Soros and asian money market crash.As for Bluskkuls assertion that only automation can save us... patently piffle. At the time i was selling Siemens automation. Asian factories at the time objected to automation saying that for the price of automation they could employ so many more labourers and be ahead .Dont worry.. Chinese costs are going up too. In the mean time I invite You Blueskul to consider the cost of manufacturing in countries other than China.What is the hourly rate of a process worker in china and how does it compare with their counterparts elsewhere in the world. How would income parity affect cost of finished goods in China versus other parts of the world.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 03:33:34 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on November 06, 2017, 01:54:12 amDistortion or what ever you want to call it, ignore it at your peril.Quoteits workign for me. Anythign and everything i can do to automate the process saves me money and lets me compete.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 04:43:48 am
content: I don't think we have to worry too much. China's wages are rising at an alarming rate, so people there will start earning more realistic wages and competition will be adjusted accordingly.

author: MUDGEL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 05:28:08 am
content: My original thinking was rather more of an approach like a cottage industry. That’s why I said niche.There must be lots of hobbyists who would prefer some part done by someone else and not have to wait for weeks for shipping quite apart from any time spent working on the board itself.I know because that’s what I was looking for. I wanted to build a board for use in a personal project but didn’t want all the etching etc. but when I looked I could get a board done cheaply but the time and cost of shipping was ludicrous. Failing any other options I did go the route of board made in China then ship to me for populating of the board and manufacture of the remaining package for housing the board and associated hardware.That’s what got me thinking. It’s the waiting for the board, not too long but the shipping, China to Australia that killed me.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 05:49:34 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 05, 2017, 07:46:33 pmQ.E.D.Like for example selling poisoned milk to young children.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 06:00:15 am
content: QuoteDouble sided PCBs, 100x100mm 10 pces, courired on DHL to you in Australia for about USD$5.50 I say thats ludicruously cheap!There is a market, but i'll tell you now its not with hobbyists!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 06:12:05 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 06, 2017, 06:04:16 amMy personal impression is that regulation in China isn't very effective or well observed. When problems arise from this, especially the ones that garner international attention, a heavy handed response can be expected from the government.Would that be an unfair assessment?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 06:53:17 am
content: Funny when i visit china, the thing that i've learnt is the best gift to take is NZ Milk powder.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 07:03:59 am
content: "SECRET stashes of “white gold” stripped from Australian supermarket shelves and bound for China have been discovered at city industrial estates."http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/other-industries/busted-warehouses-full-of-baby-formula-headed-to-china/news-story/f349c72bb2f92dba93b589e970f0baf3

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 07:08:17 am
content: Im glad this thread has gone from cottage etching of PCB to child food poisoning to which gifts to take to China.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 07:14:22 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on November 06, 2017, 07:03:59 amMany places all over the world have imposed a one box maximum for customers, because people were apparently buying all the supplies and shipping it to China.

author: MUDGEL
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 06:39:47 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 06, 2017, 06:00:15 amIt cost me 3 times the cost of board and parts to ship via DHL. They charged a remote location surcharge but then handed the package onto the Australian Postal Service on arrival in Australia once it had passed customs. I have only twice been charged this ridiculous remote location fee and both times by Chinese suppliers using DHL. Eg a Linear Power Supply that cost me USD$54 with USD$73 shipping. Took 9 working days for a supposed courier service. 2 days to Melbourne then 7 working days to me less than 150klms from the sorting centre to my place.Yet i can order electronic components from USA (Arrow) free shipping through FedEx for an order more than $20 and I get my goods inside a week. Order Monday Australia time and I have it my Friday mid morning. Door to door delivery. Can’t beat that.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 02:52:24 pm
content: Quote from: MUDGEL on November 12, 2017, 06:39:47 amI'm in the same position as you are, only in Canada. DigiKey/Mouser and the likes use FedEx, which works great. USB and DHL are expensive, deliver slow and have delivery problems to remote areas. They also can slap exuberant fees for collecting few dollars in taxes when crossing the border. Most Chinese companies can use ePacket - much cheaper, never a problem, and about the same delivery time.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 01:41:18 am
content: I can think of many small companies in the USA that would gladly pay a small CM to assemble boards at a reasonable price (ie, not 15$ each for 30 parts). Better buy prefaced boards from China and do assembly in house. Hint, the market is NOT hobbyists. Hobbyists don't usually pay for quality.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 01:45:24 am
content: Macrofab is the answer.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 02:04:44 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 13, 2017, 01:45:24 amI need to look at them again, but IIRC they charge a ton for through hole parts and seem more targeted at making small SMD widgets and boards. I know plenty of people that build small productions runs of audio gear, and the requirements dont scale well to many contract assembly houses (Large, sparsely populated boards, and plenty of through hole parts). Of course, I could be completely mistaken, and should probably look again.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 03:33:56 am
content: TH is always going to be expensive.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 06:30:24 pm
content: Quote from: CM800 on November 05, 2017, 06:44:00 pmDon't know about DLP but there are nice inkjet machines that print etch resist directly. No need for masks&exposure&develop. And solder resist and component print can also be just printed direct.For example:http://www.microcraft.co.jp/mjp/lineup/cpf.html

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 12:31:49 am
content: And more details on conductive ink printers can be found here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/making-pcbs-using-conductive-ink-printer-(ie-voltera-v-one)/msg1295698/#msg1295698

author: zeqing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2017, 03:09:14 am
content: nice to meet you here, how is the project krunch king now?

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 03:24:31 am
content: Quote from: zeqing on November 17, 2017, 03:09:14 amI stopped selling them, putting it through a redesign after all the hardware issues I had. Where do I know you from?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 09:59:44 am
content: Quote from: CM800 on November 05, 2017, 06:44:00 pmMajor PCB producers no longer use masks to make prototype quantities.I think some places are using ink jet resist printers. Ink jet techniques are gradually working their way into all sorts of production processes, like putting images on ceramic tiles, where a thick layer of the "ink" material needs to be applied. This might mean ink jet techniques spread to more electronics processes. It might be how things like carbon pads and now applied to low volume PCBs.Some places use projection techniques to expose a photoresist. I believe some of these systems use DLP tchniques, and some use a similar scanning technique to a laser printer.

author: zeqing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 10:20:45 am
content: Quote from: iampoor on November 20, 2017, 03:24:31 ami run a PCB assembly studio in shenzhen called makerfabs with some friends, and once i quoted for you.... your name really special that i still remember you after 3 years...