Keysight vs. Tek Function Generators - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 11:02:46 pm
content: I'm in the market for a new arbitrary function generator in the USD$1500-2000 range. Which of these two brands has the best value and performance in this price range?

author: graybeard
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 12:38:38 am
content: Siglent

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 12:57:52 am
content: Quote from: graybeard on December 14, 2021, 12:38:38 amA 2ch 200 MHz SDG6022X comes in at $1500 so what similar models are available from HPAK and Tek ?

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 07:56:34 am
content: I'm very happy with my older Tek low-speed arb, but the new keysight units at my work lab look fancy. Haven't used them yet though so can't comment on them. I think either way the performance should be excellent.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 08:23:34 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 13, 2021, 11:02:46 pmI would start with :What do you want to use it for? What spec?For 1500-2000 you can buy 2-3 very good new gens for Rigol or Siglent, or one that is advanced from Siglent. Siglent ones can be synchronized.With frequencies ranging up to 200MHz (without any hacking).For that kind of money you cannot get anything new similar from Keysight or Tek.EDU33212A (a very basic 20MHz 2 ch) starts at 830€ +VATPro AWG from Keysight with 20 MHz and 1 channel start at 1500€ +VAT...These two brands you mentioned have horrible price/performance in this price range..You need to do the homework first....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 05:30:07 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 13, 2021, 11:02:46 pmMaybe my Tektronix AFG31000 review / comparison is of any help:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-afg31022-review/It is easy for some to say that getting a cheap generator is 'better' in terms of price / performance but in the end it depends highly on what you need it for and what your expectations are.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 11:42:55 pm
content: Regarding Siglent and Rigol--I'd rather not buy something from a Chicom company.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 03:54:59 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 14, 2021, 11:42:55 pmIf you're shopping in that price range for an AWG, you may end up with a China-manufactured product anyway, rebadged or otherwise. I don't know about AWGs specifically, but lower-end Tek stuff is often made in China for them if not outright rebadged. If that bothers you, you'll have to spend more money or go on the used market. The HPAK/Tek function generators a bit above your stated range will probably be high-quality products and likely will have isolated outputs, but you'll get much less bang-for-buck otherwise and you may only get one output. So the question is what your performance requirements are and what it will cost to meet them.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 04:15:44 am
content: Speaking of siglent signal generators, what ever happened to the two channel differental AWG? Delayed?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 05:29:18 am
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on December 15, 2021, 04:15:44 amSDG7000A is still with the beta testers. No idea just yet of a release date.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 05:32:41 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 14, 2021, 11:42:55 pmAnd yet you plan to stick with western corporate brands that send their production to Asia so to maximize profits.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 05:52:18 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 15, 2021, 05:32:41 amWhat other options do I have? Sure, I’d prefer to buy U.S. made test equipment, but, as you say, most western corporate brands build their stuff in China. I regard buying Tek/Keysight stuff made in Asia rather than Siglent/Rigol as the lesser of two evils.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 08:10:59 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 15, 2021, 05:52:18 amPut your engineers hat on and study datasheets and realize what you get for the spend. < Me 10+ years ago.QuoteThat I did not say when in fact I said Asia and if you imagine everyone in Asia is Chinese you'll piss off of lot of Asians.If you must buy Yank with your budget then it's overdue you pony up with yourAWG must have specsso to properly utilize the members knowledge here on the forum.You could also consider BK Precision or LeCroy however an AWG from them might just be a Siglent but more expensive than from the OEM.Sal Ammoniac, are there better than Siglent bang for buck, probably but in nearly 9 years of dealing with them their stuff has been very reliable and they've totally stood behind their products in our experience.Good luck with your hunt.

author: MegaVolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 08:57:53 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 15, 2021, 08:10:59 amAny link?

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 05:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 15, 2021, 08:10:59 amHere are my must-have specs for a function generator:Max Frequency: 25 MHz# Channels: 1 (2 would be nice, but not an absolute requirement)Built-in Waveforms: Sine, Square, Triangle, Ramp, Pulse, Sinc, Gaussian NoiseArbitrary: at least 1 MSa, 4-16 MSaModes: Frequency Sweep, ContinuousModulation: AM, FM, PWM (others would be nice, but not an absolute requirement)Amplitude: 1mV - 10V PP into 50 ohmsSine Harmonic Output: in the -40 to -50 dBc rangeSine THD: <0.1%Phase Noise: at least -125 dBc/Hz at 10 kHzRise/Fall Time (square & pulse): 10 ns - 1 us variableJitter: < 1 nsI don't have anything against Asians in general, but I'd rather not support the CCP if I can avoid it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 08:19:44 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 15, 2021, 05:21:29 pmNot even the US chaps that work for them in Ohio ?QuoteGreat, thanks.Apart from their unlisted Phase Noise spec the lowly $320 2ch 30 MHz 14 bit SDG1032X easily meets your requirements.Note for later today is check Phase Noise in a few models...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 08:34:07 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 15, 2021, 08:19:44 pmActually if he wants 10Vp-p@ 50 ohms all the way to 25MHz, I think none of the Siglents work. 10MHz for the SDG1032X, 20MHz for the better ones. I don't know offhand of any amplifiers that would fix that, but perhaps 20MHz is close enough. I'll be interested to see your phase noise measurements. I wonder if an external clock might help.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 08:50:28 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 13, 2021, 11:02:46 pmFor that price range you can get a LeCroy T3AFG120 (120 MHz, 2 ch) made in China by Siglenthttps://www.tequipment.net/Teledyne-Test-Tools/T3AFG120/Function-Generator/?b=y&v=7806Or perhaps an AIM- TTI TGF4242 at 240MHz:https://www.tequipment.net/TTi/TGF4242/Function-Generator/?v=7380

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 08:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 15, 2021, 08:34:07 pmThanks good catch. Correct, SDG1000X -10 MHz, SDG2000X -20 MHz but SDG6000X does 40 MHz.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 09:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 15, 2021, 08:50:28 pmI strongly NOT recommend this one. Tried it but it fails the test to have coherent output frequencies.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 09:14:29 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 15, 2021, 08:19:44 pmI don't know who you're referring to here.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 09:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 15, 2021, 09:14:20 pmI was thinking it looked good. Could you elaborate on that problem? Do you mean coherent between channels?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 09:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 15, 2021, 09:20:12 pmSet 1 channel to 10MHz and the other to 1Hz and you'll see there is a frequency offset of a few milli-Hertz. It shows that the resolution of the DDS is quite low. These are the things that aren't very clear from the datasheet.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 09:44:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 15, 2021, 09:14:20 pmI don't need 240 MHz. I'd rather have a 25 MHz generator with higher quality output waveforms.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 10:32:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 15, 2021, 09:23:19 pmI know there was a previous discussion of something like this from a Shahriar video. The Siglent SDG2042X can be made to behave something like this if you try. I don't know if it is the "phase accumulator bug" referred to elsewhere, but if I select a 10Hz pulse and a 10,000,010Hz sine, I get drift. Sometimes if you twist the knob enough, you can get it back to exactly 10MHz and there's still a drift, although I can't reproduce this on demand. With direct entry and round numbers, I never see a problem. Not an issue for me yet, but yeah I'd like to really understand what is going on so it doesn't bite me when I'm not looking.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 10:58:07 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 15, 2021, 10:32:41 pmThe SDG2042X doesn't have the problem with 10MHz and 1Hz signals but it does have a phase accumulation problem when using modulation. What Shahriar is showing is a different limitation but it is well within the specs of the Tektronix AFG31000 series where it comes to the frequency accuracy. AFAIK the Siglent generators don't have a frequency accuracy specification so it is a guess whether these are better or worse.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 11:10:29 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 15, 2021, 09:14:29 pmSIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES - 6557 Cochran Rd Solon, Ohio 44139https://siglentna.com/

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 04:04:06 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 15, 2021, 09:14:29 pmI think Tautech is still trying to indirectly accuse you of being racist. The idea of boycotting ccp regime supported companies goes over some peoples head. Tautech seems to be one of them, unless he is just butthurt you don't want to buy a Siglent, in which case as Tautech is Siglent New Zealands distributor it would be quite unprofessional of him. But either way you shouldn't have to come onto a community forum and have your preferences questioned by a salesman. If it was a Samsung vs Apple do you think he would give a shit? He only cares because he is selling Siglents here.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 04:26:23 am
content: Well Shock, engaging with a member to understand their POV is no crime yet you think suggesting worthy models could be.Do I really care what Sal Ammoniac finally decides on, no as it's ultimately his spend but I do care that he's fully informed as to what's available and at good pricing.

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 06:33:15 pm
content: @nctnico: The SDG2042X doesn't have the problem with 10MHz and 1Hz signals but it does have a phase accumulation problem when using modulation.Ohh, I reported to Siglent about FM/PM modulation issue on square wave where the modulation fades out if you have very low modulation deviations. One cause is as they told me about the limited RAM and may only be fixed using an ARP otherwise only single channel mode possible.Still waiting for a fix since more than 9 month or a FW to test ... may this on SDG7000 model too, so gets delayed.So be save on Keysight & TEK if you need this.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 07:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 15, 2021, 10:58:07 pmI've heard of the phase accumulation bug but never looked at it, but in the context of this discussion I just was curious. It turns out there's something a bit weird going on with the SDG2042X and I'll have to think about this. If you set an output of 10MHz, that output will driftrelative to it's own clock(!) but as soon as you press the MOD key, even with 0% AM selected, the clock and output are in sync. So if you have a 10Hz pulse and 10MHz sine output, those will be coherent with each other (at first at least) but will drift relative to the clock,even with an external clockinput. Then if you select MOD on the channel with 10MHz, that channel will sync with the clock but the 10Hz pulse will now be adrift.I suppose this belongs in that other SDG2042X thread but I can't find it right now. Can anyone else duplicate this?

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 09:33:31 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 15, 2021, 11:10:29 pmAh, the U.S. subsidiary/distributor. As previously mentioned, I've nothing against Asians or Chinese, I just don't want to support the current Chinese regime--the CCP.Even though Siglent has a U.S. presence (and a N.Z. presence as indicated in your signature), that doesn't mean the money someone spends on a Siglent instrument stays in the U.S. (or N.Z.) -- some, perhaps most, of that money is going to China. The folks employed by Siglent in Ohio freely chose to work there, just like I can freely choose not to buy their products.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 09:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 16, 2021, 09:33:31 pmCorrect and employing US citizens.QuoteUnderstood and yet you'd support a US company that has shipped their production to Asia at the cost of jobs in the US.The world is a complex place........

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 11:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 16, 2021, 09:47:33 pmYeah, I really do try to buy US made and then stuff made in friendly countries, but I have much more respect for a Chinese company that develops, makes and sells product under their own name than I do for a US company that closes its factory and then tries to sell me a Chinese-OEMed product with their company name and a US flag (figuratively speaking) on it. Siglent isn't the CCP and I don't see how buying their product is supporting the CCP any more than buying Apple stuff.That said, I would give US-made stuff some preference, as long as the quality is as good or better and the price difference is not extreme or unreasonable. So for the OP's needs, what are the options?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 11:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 16, 2021, 11:07:51 pmGerman or Japanese although if you were from another era you wouldn't be buying either for political reasons.Then there's the present KS debacle which only leaves Tek !Oh hang on, they have stuff made in Asia too.........

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 11:27:21 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 16, 2021, 09:47:33 pmI'd rather not. I'd rather buy products made in the US, or at least made in a country that doesn't commit flagrant human rights violations.Hell, I'd even pay considerably more for a US-made product, but that isn't a choice in most cases because companies care more about their bottom line than being ethical.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 11:48:10 pm
content: Way this topic goes, I think you don't really need function generator..

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 12:02:04 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 16, 2021, 11:27:21 pmI'm not sure the US qualifies there either, but I'm not sure how dividing things out by national borders is so important. I'd prefer not to buy from a company with terrible ethical standards, wherever they may be located.QuotePerhaps these are still US-made? You'd have to ask them:https://www.thinksrs.com/products/ds345.html

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 12:33:26 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 17, 2021, 12:02:04 amAgreed. We have a long history of slavery, racism, you name it.

author: AJ3G
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 03:01:45 am
content: Have you by chance checked into some of the older Sony/Tektronix AFG’s? Based on your requirements, this may fit your need well, and save you a few bucks. I own one, and its been a solid unit for many years. I would have to look at my spec sheet to see if the harmonic spec you have given is within range of the old Sony AFG’s (do not know off the top of my head, sorry). Other than that one specification, I think they meet/exceed the requirements you have laid out.Rich