Chip/Die identification – Pentawatt/TO-220-5 package - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 08:38:09 pm
content: Hello,I needed some VN05N to repair an old control unit. Sadly they are out of production for quite some time now and therefore I wasn't able to get them from reliable vendors. But there are a lot of chinese sellers offering them, even though I was skeptical I gave it a try.When i tested them they didn't work, short between Vcc and Status and diode behavior between Vcc and Output, not good.I thought they are faked and that was it, would have been to easy.But some time later I got curious what kind of IC they actually sold me. Thats when I got side tracked into decapping ICs.Results aren’t perfect but I’m happy how it turned out for my first attempts, maybe beginners luck ;-). I tried to reattach the broken piece in the picture.I was surprised that it was an actual ST die and with the little knowledge I have, it looked plausible to me to be some kind of “smart switch”. But the bond wire connections looked very small to me for anything even close to the 13A a VN05N is rated for.The only markings I could find were the ST logo next to a 92 (probably year code) and something like “CL819E 88S R5”, the 8 could be a B, I couldn’t find anything using that.I’ve seen the great work done by Noopy and his VN02H and it looks very different:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/transistors-die-pictures/msg3113304/#msg3113304Does anybody have an idea what this chip is?To be honest it doesn’t really matter but I’m really curious now.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 09:32:21 pm
content: That's a very good job (save for the broken corner) and I actually feel obliged ask how you have done itIt looks very clean like after some sort of acid, but it doesn't seem like the bond pads are completely ruined, which is a common gotcha with acids.Did you manage to get FNA by any chance? Or just a lot of luck with a hammer and chiselSpeaking of the chip, I don't know. I think it looks like it could actually be two power transistors in series, so perhaps a halfbridge driver or something of that sort? I don't even know if such chips exist...I think it may be CMOS because I'm not sure how BJT power transistors would end up looking like that. So that actually would be a match with VN05N, except of course it looks vastly different from the similar chip opened by Noopy.Do you have any means of knowing which pad corresponds to which pin on the package? Also, which pin was connected to the heatsink (meh, nevermind, the middle one but we have no idea what it is)?Some info about ST's process which VN05N was fabbed on:https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/about/innovation---technology/VIPower.htmlIt looks like it's made on N substrate with NMOS power transistors, so if this chip is similar, it should have VCC on the central pin. Other pins may be completely different from NV05N. Go check if there is a protection diode from every other pin to VCC. Try to find a pin which has a protection diode in the opposite direction from every other pin, that should be ground. If it's a halfbridge, it seems you should be able to find the two body diodes in series and hence the output pin too.It seems in the upper right corner two pads are shorted by metal, so...It's all kinda pointless, just curiosity

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2021, 08:42:00 am
content: Speaking of halfbridges, it could simply be an audio amp like this one:https://www.richis-lab.de/audioamp01.htmTDA2030, perhaps?And by the way, that's not VIPower because the MOSFET isn't fully vertical. On the real VN02N there is only source metalization above the transistor and the drain is connected solely from the bottom. Here it appears that source contacts are interleaved with drain contacts on the surface of the die.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2021, 12:41:57 pm
content: Thanks for the replies but I’m afraid I have to disappoint you. My first idea was FNA as well, but for now there are to many steps involved to get it, so I looked for alternatives. I came across the rosin method and tried it, but after seeing no progress I took it out and applied some force using pliers. I later found out that I was way to impatient and it may take a good boil for two hours.Maybe I got lucky and in fact the die is cracked multiple times probably only held together by the base. But the combination of heat and force may have some promise as I seen it successfully done in a few videos, my version was just a lot less elegant.Thanks for all your information what it could be, now I have to do some more digging. Good catch on not being a VIPower due to the lack of vertical orientation.The only diode behavior I could find by measuring was between pin 3/4 (shorted) and pin 5, Uf~1,4V.But I got the bondwire connections, thankfully they were arranged logically. I can confirm that pin 3 is connected to the heatsink.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2021, 12:55:47 pm
content: Interesting thought occurs to me, I wonder if my CO2 laser would be capable of decapping a chip with multiple passes...

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2021, 02:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on February 18, 2021, 12:55:47 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/laser-decapsulation/

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2021, 03:29:28 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on February 18, 2021, 02:39:55 pmThat's interesting, I can see I'm going to have to experiment. By happy coincidence I have next week off work.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2021, 03:55:22 pm
content: I'm gonna guess that 5 is some kind of input, it even looks like the structure right to the left of the pad could be a long tail pair of some sort. I suppose you don't have a better microscope, okay.Then the others are two power rails and the output. I don't think it would make a lot of sense to have a power transistor between the rails, so 1 has to be the output and 2, 3/4 are the supplies. I think 3/4 is more likely to be negative and 2 positive but I could be wrong.It is somewhat surprising that body diodes can't be detected, perhaps it is BJTs after all?If it isn't an audio amp then another thing coming to mind could be a buck converter with built-in (synchronous?) rectification and ADJ input on pin 5.BTW, do you have more of those chips? Maybe just power one up and see what happensAs for decapsulation, you may want to read this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/decapping-and-chip-documentation-howto/Rosin is very slow, requires very high temperature and boils and burns away like crazy. You will need a lot of it and a lot of patience too. However, overheating for a few minutes to the point of smoking causes permanent degradation of the epoxy and enables cracking it apart after it cools down. That's how Noopy opens his chips. I suppose a large power device will still take a while to thoroughly bake and then cleanly disassemble, but at least you aren't wasting rosin and don't need a bowl for it.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 01:40:58 pm
content: I have only one of the fakes left that isn’t in non working condition. I also came to the conclusion that pin 3 is probably negative. I did some poking around using your information and what I found in datasheets of likely candidates but I didn’t get any results.It might very well be that I destroyed it when I tested it as a VN05N. Back then I didn’t kept track of everything, just tested them for their intended purpose as I wasn’t planning on doing a deep dive. But then I got curious…For now I can’t offer any better resolution, getting those pictures was already a bit of a struggle with the equipment I got. Maybe I can get some better Pictures in the future, it will take some time but I’ll update this topic if I got anything new.For now I think your suggestion of it being an TDA20* Audio Amp is the most likely answer, due to the similarity in layout and the die number to the TDA7396 decapped by Noopy.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 02:07:27 pm
content: One thing that doesn't quite fit audio is lack of feedback connection. Most chip amps have it, so that gain can be set by external resistors.But it has to be something ludicrously simple, there just isn't enough I/O for any rocket science.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 06:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on February 18, 2021, 03:29:28 pmWell, I *think* it would work but it's slow going, each pass makes a mark that you can feel with a fingernail, I think you'd need many passes with my laser cutter to decap something usefully.It's rather useful should I start selling off my stock of chips and semicondiuctors though, I can warranty mark them all

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 09:59:17 pm
content: I did a bit more playing around and got more magnification but the quality leaves a lot to be desired. At least the part number on the die is a bit clearer. It seems to be CL019E 802 A5 or R5.I gave the rosin method another attempt and it did work quite well but the die looks a bit dirty. I will update this topic when I got better results. But first I have to improve my camera setup.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 10:38:43 pm
content: First I got to admit that I haven’t improved my camera setup. Maybe I should invest in a matchbox camera ?But I want to share the results I got using the rosin method, so maybe it is interesting to somebody.At first I tried it with one of those fake chips and cooked it for about 2 hours in rosin using a test tube. Then I threw the contents on some aluminium foil, picked the die up and cleaned it using acetone, a ultrasonic cleaner sped this up a lot.It is possible that the damage to the metal layer is from overheating because the die touched the glass. Being careful while positioning the part in the test tube may prevent that.Later I gave the dead, original VN05N a try. Contrary to the fake chip the package didn’t completely dissolve, so I extended the treatment. When I finally took it out I realized that, while the package was partially still there, it was really soft and I could remove it from the die using tweezers.Here the vertical arrangement of the MOSFET magic mentioned is easily identified. I found it interesting that, while there are similarities to the VN02H decapped by noopy, the layout looks completely independent to me.As a summary of my tests using rosin I like it for its simplicity and the low investments needed, but I don’t think it’s a viable method if you are in a hurry or want to decap many parts, but for my occasional decapping its just fine.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 06:10:41 am
content: I am utterly tired of messing with rosin. How did you even manage to keep it from drying up completely over those two hours?I plan to construct a simple heater (I mean, simpler than Noopy's oven) for those things using a 3D printer heat block. This should be able to hold even TO220 style packages, but it's to be seen if it will be hot enough to cook them well.Matchbox would only give you a view into a small area at high magnification. And it kinda sucks after all, so I'm also working on rebuilding this camera with better materialsI don't know if I said it before, but this fake chips looks like it could be bipolar. But I'm not very familiar with CMOS, so...

author: Noopy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 06:39:27 am
content: Yes, looks like bipolar...

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 06:43:59 am
content: I only don't understand how the power transistors would work if they are bipolarBut the rest of the die, it surely looks like there is a bunch of lateral PNPs in there.

author: Noopy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 07:27:08 am
content: Looking closer it looks like the upper area is a transistor and the lower area is a (freewheeling) diode.The wide traces in the upper area connect collector and emitter and the thin traces connect the base. The thin traces make a short way under the metal.In the lower area we see no base connection. I assume that is just a diode.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 08:58:16 am
content: So you think it's some sort of perforated emitter NPN and the metal at the edge of the die is the collector? That seems possible. There appear to be two metal layers, then.As for the other, there are supposedly no diodes detectable between the pins of the ICMaybe it's a PNP...

author: Noopy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 09:54:22 am
content: I would expect something similar to this:

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 12:47:06 pm
content: First of all thanks for the replies, while I got to admit that the topic of understanding an IC from looking at it is a bit over my head, I do really enjoy reading your comments, putting those together with the pictures I got and getting an idea of what I see.I hope I don’t disappoint you again, but my rosin setup was really simple, that’s the reason I like it. I used 16mm test tubes (because I got a few of those laying around), put enough rosin in it that the TO220 is completely covered, maybe around 40mm high when it is melted, and dropped the IC into the melted rosin. Heating was done with a small alcohol burner (one of those with a wick). The test tube was angled to reduce the mess. I started a timer to remind me when it’s finished and looked from time to time if everything was ok, but did other stuff in the main time. Of course, this was done outside.When finished the viscosity of the rosin-package solution gets quite high when it cools down, that’s one of the reasons acetone is needed to clean the die up and why it helps to remove the die from the test tube while it’s still really hot.As you can tell fine control is not one of the strong points of my setup, but it works and I think the rosin keeps the temperature controlled. If you are interested I can put a thermocouple in the next time I decap a chipThe only diode I can find is the one between pin 3/4 and pin 5 with an Ufof ~1,5V.Just for the fun of it I gave it a try with the “AVR-Transistortester“ and it showed a capacitance of 9pF for the diode mentioned above, a capacity of 247pF between pin 2 and 3 (when pin 4 was not connected), a 286kOhm resistance between pin 2 and 3 /4 and as before a short between pin 3 and 4. The tester showed a capacitor of ~80µF and an ESR of 0.16kOhm between pin 1 and 3/4 so my guess is that using those pins activated the ic in some way.Not really sure how much this helps, but I thought I write it down.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2021, 01:45:50 pm
content: You know what? Apply 12V with 10kΩ in series between pins 1,2,3 and see what are the breakdown voltages. What happens between 1 and 3 or can you get 6~7V going from 1 to 2.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 11:02:12 pm
content: I decapped another chip and took temperature measurements, so now I got a disgusting thermocouple.min°Ccomments0150rosin just melted302806026090315boiling120290150310endA plausible explanation for the temperature variation might be that there was a light breeze, so the flame was moving around.When I emptied the test tube I immediately noted that the rosin look far to clear. The package wasn’t dissolved, it was just a bit tacky on the outside but when I tested to crack a corner it was definitely weaker than before.Looking for explanations I noted that the flame was a bit small. Therefore I extended the wick slightly an gave it another try.min°Ccomments0new rosin15355boiling25340boiling55359boiling11540burner empty175330endDue to the fact that I didn’t know how long the burner had been empty I left it cooking for a bit longer.This time the die was completely separated and needed just some cleanup with acetone.I got no idea how accurate the measurements are and how much of a temperature gradient there is, but as conclusion I would say that the rosin needs to be boiling and the temperature needs to be in the ballpark of 320-350°C.I measured the breakdown voltages like you suggested. I did a small schematic to illustrate it better, hope it makes more sense to you then it did to me. The “D7” voltage started to increase during measurement.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 08:36:04 am
content: Are those forward or reverse voltages of those diodes, or a random mix?

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 09:36:57 am
content: Got to admit it’s a valid question, they are all forward voltages. Lets say VR>> U as they are blocking in reverse.I haven’t measured any voltage over current characteristics, I just thought it was easier to illustrate using diodes.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 09:49:27 am
content: So it means that 11.5V can be applied to pin 1 or pin 2 with respect to pin 3 and still only 0.5V/10kΩ=50µA flows into the chip?That's surprising, I frankly expected that 3 is ground an 2 is VCC at this point.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 10:28:23 am
content: Yes that's true, i did some quick measurements as a sanity check and it turns out to be 56 and 59 µA.My measurements did puzzle me a bit, but then I thought it may be due to my limited knowledge.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 09:11:25 pm
content: Maybe a look behind the curtain helps, therefore I gave the die another bath.Before:After a bath in HCl, you know where I got the idea from.I thought that the thin oxide layer with an air gap behind was the reason for the bad picture quality, therefore I gave the die a bath in an ultrasonic cleaner.And finally I tried putting those pictures together into one.Hope you enjoy these pictures* and if they show something helpful about the chip that would be even better.*I know they are not even close to quality of the beautiful pictures Noopy provides us with.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 03:12:37 pm
content: I'm starting to doubt that these power transistors are vertical NPNs because in the standard bipolar process there is a diode from the lowest supply rail (ground) to each NPN collector.Perhaps they are lateral PNP. It's not entirely unheard of, there are LDOs which use a large PNP pass transistor to allow output within millivolts of the input. The same could be the case in a buck converter or a smart switch.Based on the appearance of the left transistor, I think pin 1 would be the more likely candidate for VCC in such case. Furthermore, there are traces going from pin 1 to several places in the control circuitry (a few looking like PNP emitters) and only one trace going from pin 2 to the control circuitry that I can see.There is still the mystery of that structure between pin 1 and pin 3, but that could possibly be some sort of clamp to protect from negative input voltage or whatever. Once the datasheet is located, it would be explained.Maybe it's time to go YOLO?Your measurements suggest it should be safe to ground pin 3 and apply 5V power to pin 1. Maybe with current limit to a few mA or with 1kΩ resistor.See what's the output on pin 2. Load pin 2 with 10kΩ to ground and measure again.Pull pin 5 (input, feedback, enable, ??) with 10kΩ to ground, to 5V and to pin 2 (feedback). See what happens to the output in each case.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 10:25:12 pm
content: Thanks for the suggestions, I guess you are right, there is not much else left to do?I tried as you suggested using a 1k resistor for current limiting and a 10k as a pull-up/-down.At first there was nothing happening and pin 2 was low, but when I pulled pin 5 high the IC pulled the voltage on pin 1 down to 2,3V and almost the same voltage was on pin 2. A 10k pull-down resister on pin 2 didn’t change anything.Then I tried changing the current limiting resistor to 680 Ohm but the voltages kept the same.Afterwards I tested the breakdown voltages to see if I killed the chip and the only one that changed was “D7” it was now 8,2V but as it wasn’t stable when I first tested it I’m not to worried.Not really sure what to make of this, I tested a slightly different setup. 5V with 1k current limiting resistor on pin 2, ground still on pin 3. Now there were 4,6V on pin 1, with a 10k pull-down it changed to 4,0V and the supply to 4,6V (that was expected), with a 1k pull-down it changed to 0V and the supply back to 5V.*I removed the pull-down resistors and put a 10k pull-up on pin 5 and again the supply voltage dropped to 2,3V. When I changed it to feedback from pin 1 to pin 5 it did exactly the same.I still think 5 is an input, but I’m not sure what to make of the behavior of 1 and 2.Do you got any ideas for the next step or should i just remove the current limiting resistor and see if the magic smoke escapes?*typo corrected

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 03:04:40 pm
content: I forgot to say, if you pull the input up, pull it to the supply pin after the limiting resistor rather than to 5V because the latter may take the input outside absolute maximum ratings and/or trigger some unintended behavior.It is possible that VCC sags down to 2.3V because the chip needs more supply current than the resistor permits and 2.3V is the point where it begins to shut down and limit its current consumption. In such case it will stay at 2.3V until it is allowed to consume all the current it wants, then VCC will rise to 5V-I·R as expected.I don't understand the results of the second attempt. I gather you applied power to pin 2, was that 4.6V measured on pin 2 or pin 1? Where was the pull-down applied, which pin was 4.0V and which was 4.6V?

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 09:33:16 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 15, 2021, 03:04:40 pmAt first I did it that way, but later I forgot about it...QuoteThat is quite possible, I guess I didn't go enough YOLO then.QuoteI agree it's a bit confusing (and there is a typo) I try it a different way.2. Setup:Pin 1: NCPin 2: Power limited with 1k resistorPin 3: GroundPin 5: NCMeasurements:Pin 1: 4,6VPin 2: 5,0VPin 5: <0,1V3. Setup:Pin 1: 10k pull-down resistorPin 2: Power limited with 1k resistorPin 3: GroundPin 5: NCMeasurements:Pin 1: 4,0VPin 2: 4,6V (that was expected)Pin 5: <0,1V4. Setup:Pin 1: 1k pull-down resistorPin 2: Power limited with 1k resistorPin 3: GroundPin 5: NCMeasurements:Pin 1: 0,0VPin 2: 5,0VPin 5: <0,1VWhen the pull-down is removed it takes a few seconds until the voltage goes back to the values in Setup 2. I think this behavior is interesting but not quite sure what it means for the pin out of the IC.5. Setup:Pin 1: NCPin 2: Power limited with 1k resistorPin 3: GroundPin 5: 10k pull-up resistor (after 1k resistor)Measurements:Pin 1: 2,3VPin 2: 2,3VPin 5: 2,2V6. Setup:Pin 1: Feedback to pin 5 with a 10k resistorPin 2: Power limited with 1k resistorPin 3: GroundPin 5: see pin 1Measurements:Pin 1: 2,3VPin 2: 2,3VPin 5: 2,2V

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 08:44:17 am
content: Quote from: Jo on July 15, 2021, 09:33:16 pmAre you sure it's not 5V-50mV on pin 2?I don't think we can rule out other possibilities with certainty, but...The results so far appear consistent with a PNP transistor being between pins 1,2. It seems that the chip tries to sink significant base current (a few mA?) from that PNP when pin 5 is raised. A PNP is quite symmetric, so it can conduct in both directions and there is no difference if power is applied to pin 1 or pin 2 as long as (by any random chance, leakage, whatever) the chip enters a state where base current is drawn form the PNP for a moment and both pins get equalized.I think pin 1 is the proper supply so the chip works more or less reasonably in this configuration and behaves like a high side switch or something of that sort.When you apply power to pin 2, current flows from the collector to the base and apparently from there it somehow finds a way to pin 1 (with 6.7~8.2V breakdown voltage) or, if pin 3 is grounded, to other circuitry and from there also to pin 1, enabling the chip to be turned on by pin 5. If pin 1 is loaded with a resistor, there is one diode drop lost along the path from pin 2. And I suspect that once pin 1 is pulled below the magic threshold of 2.3V, something inside turns off and that's why pin 2 goes open circuit again.I still don't know what it is. There are a few contact pads for factory testing, it's not clear if a dumb switch would need them by they are common on voltage regulators. There seems to be a small capacitor (somewhat irregular, flat metal area near the right end of the big transistor/diode/whatever at the bottom).Can it drive 1kΩ load when it is tuned on?

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 05:12:20 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 16, 2021, 08:44:17 amGood oneMaybe there is a reason why I used such a low resolution.But just for the fun of it I took a measurement of the voltage drop across the resistor: 31,8 mV and the resistor value is 997so the current should be 31,9 µA .So it seems like it is not a constant current device.Joking aside, your explanation makes sense to me and gave me a bit more confidence moving forward.QuoteI thought it might be some kind of protection circuit.QuoteYes it can:7. Setup:Pin 1: Power limited with 1k resistorPin 2: 1k pull-downPin 3: GroundPin 5: 10k pull-upMeasurements:Pin 1: 2,3VPin 2: 2,1VPin 5: 2,2V8. Setup:Pin 1: Power limited with 1k potentiometer and a resistor (also called an amperemeter) in seriesPin 2: NCPin 3: GroundPin 5: 10k pull-upMeasurements:9. Setup:Pin 1: PowerPin 2: 1k pull-downPin 3: GroundPin 5: 10k pull-upMeasurements:Pin 1: 5,0VPin 2: 5,0VPin 5: 4,9V10. Setup:Pin 1: PowerPin 2: 180pull-downPin 3: GroundPin 5: 10k pull-upMeasurements:Pin 1: 5,00VPin 2: 4,96VPin 5: 4,86VAnd finally I checked the breakdown voltages, they haven’t changed, therefore I’m somewhat confident that I haven’t fried the IC.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 08:06:53 pm
content: That's good, I guess there is still chance that we are not entirely wrong about everythingHow does the output current depend on pin 5 voltage and does it turn on at something like 1.25V or Vout-1.25V? That would suggest an adjustable voltage regulator. If not, I don't know, maybe a fixed regulator with shutdown (at least 5V) or just a stupid high side switch.The other structure (at the bottom) appears to be nothing more than a clamp catching power supply going 6V below zero and/or above some threshold (apparently higher than 12V that was tested). I don't get it, is it meant for automotive use?I can't find any reasonable datasheet. Buck regulators like L200 have different pinout, smart switches are all the VN series, I think 100% CMOS (but I could be wrong), linear LDOs have outputs on pin 5.editI forgot to add previously, one reason I think that pin 1 is VCC is because there is 6.7V breakdown going from pin 2 to pin 1 (and even less when ground is connected). So if the chip were to take power on pin 2 and output on pin 1, it would fail with more than a few volts of supply. Erm, screw that, it wouldn't work at all with ground connected because of the leakage to pin 1 capable of pulling 1kΩ to 4V and possibly more.edit editWell, unless the "leakage" is part of intended operationBut the breakdown is very fishy, I wouldn't want an IC working at more than 5V to behave like that when it loses ground connection.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 10:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 16, 2021, 08:06:53 pmI think for something stupid there is a lot of (to much?) silicon "wasted" for stuff that isn't powetransistor.Your guess with was very good:11. Setup:Pin 1: PowerPin 2: NCPin 3: GroundPin 5: 10k pull-up with variable voltageMeasurements:Pin 1: 4,91VPin 2: 0,0VPin 5: <= 1,15Vand:Pin 1: 4,91VPin 2: 4,90VPin 5: >= 1,25V12. Setup:Pin 1: PowerPin 2: 180 Ohm pull-downPin 3: GroundPin 5: 10k pull-up with variable voltageMeasurements:Pin 1: 4,91VPin 2: 0,0VPin 5: <= 1,15Vand:Pin 1: 4,91VPin 2: 4,87VPin 5: >= 1,25VSo the voltage and therefore the current isn’t changing, at least in the range I tested.Then I looked again at the devices manufactured by STM in a Pentawatt package, these were the ones I found:TVS-Thyristors (STIL0*)I don’t think that’s possible.Audio Amplifiers (TDA20*)I don’t think that’s likely considering the test results and the Pinout of the ones I took a look at.Power OPAMP (L165)I don’t think that’s likely considering the test results and the Pinout of the ones I took a look at.SMPS IC (VIPer*)It’s in the name, it uses “VIPower M0Technology” therefore not possible.smart power SSR (VN*)AFAIK they all use “VIPower Technology” therefore not possible.Ignition coil driver (VB027*)AFAIK they all use “VIPower Technology” therefore not possible.adjustable voltage regulator (L200)Apart from everything else, just look at the pictures taken by Noopy.Voltage regulators (L*)While I think this could be a possibility, I didn’t find any device with a matching pin out.Alternator voltage regulator (L9918)Maybe? I think that might be possible, but I have to do a bit more research and right now I’m not sure how to test it.This is a link to a very short datasheet for the L9918:https://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/data_brief/group2/c5/c5/11/fe/4a/4b/4e/88/DM00626620/files/DM00626620.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.DM00626620.pdf

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 05:29:40 am
content: That doesn't look like an adjustable regulator. Such regulators generally turn on when feedback voltage is less than 1.25V above ground or more than 1.25V below the output. This chip turns on at more than 1.2V above ground, so I'm not sure how you would wire a feedback network to make it work as a regulator. I think pin 5 is simply a turn-on switch, perhaps reacting to two diode drops above ground or something like that.It looks quite like those LF series regulators but pins 2 and 5 are swapped and polarity of "inhibit" signal is reversedhttps://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/ST%20Microelectronics%20PDFS/LF00_Rev_17.pdfMaybe it will output constant voltage when you load it with some 1kΩ and 10µF to ground and increase supply voltage...Quite surely it's not L9918 because pin 4 is shorted to pin 3.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 10:08:34 am
content: Quote from: magic on July 18, 2021, 05:29:40 amThe similarities are convincing but, even though there is the possibility that these parts are from a rejected batch, I don’t think that these are likely faults.?QuoteI just tested it. I guess I embraced a bit of YOLO attitude now.11. Setup:Pin 1: Power limited with 180 Ohm resistor (voltage variable)Pin 2: 1k pull-down with 10µFPin 3: GroundPin 5: 10k pull-upMeasurements:Pin 1: <2,3VPin 2: 0,0VPin 5:and:Pin 1: 2,3V < U < 13VPin 2: ~UPin 5(U =13V): 12,8VYes, I chickened out at 13V but I think it's unlikely that the voltage is higher than that?Another thing that doesn't fit with the LF00 is the "Quiescent current" without load.QuoteI have to agree with this, but what is your opinion on the basic functionality?Even though I haven't found one in a pentawatt package, I wouldn't rule out that there was a version without the LIN-communication.Other wise we would have ruled out all the parts on my list, but there my be more?Any suggestions where I can find a better list of obsolete parts from STM using the pentawatt package?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 10:49:57 am
content: No way that a faulty part would have a bunch of pins swapped around or reversed logic input actionI thought it could be something similar.But hey, you ordered a high side switch, you know how to use it as a high side switch now, so what's the problem?The Chinese guy delivered.I really don't know what it is.These guysare some fanatics who collect all sorts of documentation about old computers and electronic components, but all they have on STM and SGS (the S in STM) is computer chips and really old stuff. I looked at the SGS "computer and industrial ICs" databook from 1988 for inspiration but found none. Not entirely surprising, given the 1992 date on the die.I think at least my guess about PNP between pins 1 and 2 is correct because only a saturated PNP or P-MOSFET could keep the pins isolated when off and equalize them perfectly when on, regardless of which pin is used for supply and which for load. And a PNP better matches the horrendous current consumption. And the lack of diodes, though MOSFETs are four terminal devices and maybe one could be made without a body-source short on an IC; off the top of my head, I'm not sure if it would be doable and work well.

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 03:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 18, 2021, 10:49:57 amIt's just that the guy who did the PCB layout didn't prepare for that, how shortsighted of him.QuoteThanks for the link, what a wonderful website, the wealth of information there is really awesome.Using their SGS Documents I found a few more chips that were available in a Pentawatt-package. After a bit more digging I think the L9351 and as a less likely alternative the L9350 is not just a possible, but a likely solution to this search of the Chinese mystery chip.To me the L9351 and L9350 look like the predecessors to the VN-series of high-side smart SSRs.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 03:53:12 pm
content: Yep, automotive PNP smart switches. I don't know where you found them but they are perfect candidatesThat's not the worst outcome you could get playing Chinese roulette; another guy received open collector comparators relabeled as audio opamps

author: Jo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 05:24:42 pm
content: Big thanks for all your help during this project and also thanks to everyone else who contributed to this Topic, I learned a lot. Isn’t it amazing how much entertainment you can get from being betrayed by a ebay-seller.Quote from: magic on July 18, 2021, 03:53:12 pmI think if there were resistors available in a pentaawatt/TO220-5 package they wouldn’t resist sending me those labeled as whatever I need...If you wonder why, back in February, I couldn’t get the chip to do anything, I think that that chip was already damaged in previous testing.QuoteI found them in the ‘87 shortform catalog looking for devices using the pentawatt package and narrowed it down using their datasheets:L9350:https://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=5f461c8cdfa9b4f8ff702198357cfbc16cedb2&type=M&term=L9350L9531:https://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=bc8d4fdcb7e45a227605df6cb46a9e03d20f71&type=M&term=L9351Here’s a quote from the L9351 datasheet “Very low standby current (30mA max.) “ I think some things have changed since then.I tested the over current and over temp protection on my chip and indeed it’s working. The current limit is 1,2A at 12V and when the over temp is reached it switches off, as soon as it is cooled down a bit it switches back on.Is there anything else I should test?