Vacuum Cleaner as Fume Extractor (Makita DCL182) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Markus Enginethrust
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 09:26:50 am
content: Everybody has a vacuum cleaner laying around, but i never saw somebody use it directly as a fume extractor. (I'm wondering why, maybe some of you have?)In combination with a balcony the fumes get extracted right into the outside.So you can basically use it as a very strong fume extractor without spending any extra money or building modifications.When using a small portable cleaner even a window, where you can mount securely outside (e.g. inside a flower box), is enough.Here is my current setup:(Here is a short video of me attaching the small adapter on the makita and trying it out: youtu.be/7dhZXZqWFOg)Positive:Strong and adjustable suction.Minimal to no additional cost for most people.Any produced trash (fried components, shells, small pieces of wire ...) can be held near the hose and get transported into the cleaners dustbag.Downside:Noise (Inside not so much but outside for the neighbors. So far no complaints though. I am using the quieter low power mode of the vac.)Eventually this will be replaced but for now this is not a bad substitute.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 10:44:40 am
content: If you are soldering a lot of time, guess you would replace motor brushes at least once in a month. Also noise level is just too high. Impractical and too expensive, get a proper In-Line Duct Fan.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 11:19:43 am
content: If you are soldering on that window sill, just open that window properly and you don't need the expensive vacuum cleanerHowever, instead of worrying about solder fumes (unless you are soldering the entire day) you should get a proper bench, IMHO. Opened window and a small brushless fan (e.g. recycled from an old computer) blowing across the bench will do you a lot better service than that vacuum hack.Most hobbyists solder with no fumes extraction for decades and with no ill effects - the biggest problems are the flux fumes, because they are an irritant, but the ages old hold-your-breath-while-soldering technique along with ventilating the room works too if you don't want to use a fan. And no, you won't get lead poisoning from soldering fumes - the temperatures involved are way too low for that.

author: Markus Enginethrust
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 11:38:07 am
content: Probably i am a bit too paranoid about these fumes.The main reason for not just soldering in front of the open the window is that the wind can be annoying when positioning small parts.The point with the impracticality is true, you have to position the vacuum outside everytime before soldering. A more conventional solution is probably best. Thanks for the technical term "In-Line Duct Fan", this is helpful for finding the right parts.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 12:02:01 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 05, 2017, 11:19:43 amBold statement. Did anyone study connection if certain hobbyists got they lung cancer or some other delayed diseases because of the flux fumes? From my own experience they make me feel sick.But there were enough studies about factory environments.http://www.elexp.com/Images/Health_Hazards.PDFQuotehttps://www.aessolutions.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/controlling_health_risks_from_rosin_colophony_based_solder_fluxes_indg249.pdf

author: Nprod
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 12:20:36 pm
content: I've been toying with the same idea, but with putting some kind of filter in the hose line so it works like a regular (expensive) fume extractor. There are vacuum cleaners with electronic speed control, so the noise level can be somewhat manageable. Out of curiosity - are benchtop fume extractors any good? Seems like them being only a 1st stage filter makes them practically useless... Btw the absolute cheapest and safest solution to solder fumes i've found is to use a military surplus gasmask or respirator

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 12:34:42 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 05, 2017, 12:02:01 pmWho still uses rosin flux?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 03:51:25 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 05, 2017, 12:02:01 pmFactory environments - aka mass production - have environmental regulations and laws applied to them for a reason. That's why things like fume extractors and respirators are mandatory in that environment. You can't compare exposure of a worker soldering 8 hours every day with a hobbyist soldering a kit or something every once in a while.My point wasn't whether or not flux fumes can give someone cancer but that as a hobbyist you would probably do much better if you cared first about your workspace (aka having a proper bench and not soldering in a window) than fume extraction.You are much more likely to get injured or to damage something when e.g. that tape holding that vacuum cleaner gets unstuck than from the soldering fumes. Once you have that sorted out, THEN deal with fume extraction and other "luxuries". Basic priorities, IMHO.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 03:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on February 05, 2017, 12:34:42 pmMe, for example. But even some of the non-rosin fluxes can be fairly nasty. Also other chemicals you could find on PCBs, e.g. some glues.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 04:01:40 pm
content: Besides what everyone else already mentioned, vacuum cleaner motors are not designed for high duty cycles.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 06:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on February 05, 2017, 12:34:42 pmLOL, most of the modern fluxes are still rosin based (in solder wire, liquid, tacky) like any RMA flux. Unless it is a water soluble crap which cannot be used without washing the boards within a few hours after soldering (and I mean washing, like in some sort of machine, not cleaning with a brush). Also there are some synthetic no-clean fluxes, but I doubt they are any better for your health.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 06:41:43 pm
content: And now look on the flux type:http://www.kester.com/products/product/44-flux-cored-wirehttp://www.kester.com/products/product/48-flux-cored-wirehttp://www.kester.com/products/product/285-flux-cored-wire

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 06:53:52 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 05, 2017, 03:51:25 pmDon't forget that those workers are in well ventilated areas and still are exposed to health problems. If you are soldering more than 10 components to the board, you are already breathing heck a lot of fumes. In my childhood, soldering affected my health pretty badly. I'm still sneezing a lot, and often have troubles breathing through the nose. Also, if I have a cold, bronchitis is almost guaranteed to come as a bonus.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 06:57:28 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 05, 2017, 03:52:49 pmFor some, it is "raindrops on roses", for some it is "whiskers on kittens", and yet for others, it is "the fresh smell of napalm in the morning." For me,the smell of fresh rosin fume 1am in the morningdoes it. Not to say I go out of my way to smell it, but from a sensory stand point... I do like it...Forget that vacuum cleaner. As many have said, the motor will died on you in no time. Even if your motor holds out, the belt and other moving parts inside will end up costing you big time. I just replaced a drive belt on a vacuum. Took me forever to locate one, and it is an unpleasant job to do not unlike cleaning out sewage pipe.Try using those brushless PC/CPU fans. They last forever - almost. Just use a filter so the motor doesn't get clogged up.

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2017, 09:45:18 pm
content: I have use large PC fans. These work ok at moving smoke elsewhere and work well combined with the "hold your breath" method (which needs some airflow to move/dissipate the fumes).I have used the Hakko FA-400 fan: works as well as the PC fans and absorbs some portion of the smoke in its carbon filter.The issue I was left with was the smoke smell after enough time soldering (limited outside ventilation). Between this and my kids participating in soldering activities, I ended up splurging for a FA-430 with the LocLine hose.I can honestly say that, while the price tag is very high, it delivers. The filtering is top notch and very little smoke smell actually escape. It's also much more powerful than the FA-400 or the PC fans so it's capable of sucking in the full flow of fumes. Finally, with the LocLine hose, it's easy to position and doesn't take much desk space or working room.It is a bit noisier than I'd like (on the medium setting), but it can be easily turned on/off when needed.Overall, I think the FA-430 is a great solution, checks all the boxes (including the substantially decreased bank account balance unfortunately).I could also see that a forced-air hose to the outside of a room would work well (if a hole in a wall or a window is an option).I am not a big fan of leaving the smell/fumes in the room.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2017, 09:48:55 pm
content: Just stick one of these outsidehttp://www.homedepot.com/p/Bucket-Head-5-gal-1-75-Peak-HP-Wet-Dry-Vac-BH0100/202017218

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2017, 09:54:29 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 05, 2017, 03:52:49 pmSo do I.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2017, 10:16:24 pm
content: I found a cheap and very effective fume extractor. It is just an electric bathroom air extractor. It comprises a motor fan unit and 4" input and output hoses. It was designed to be mounted above the ceiling and is powerful yet very quiet. Excellent air flow and the 4" flexible hose is supplied in one length that can be cut to provide suitable input/output lengths or just one long length input hose if that suits.The cost ? They are very common and often discounted. Mine cost £12 each and I use two to extract the fumes from my pair of 3D ABS printers.Cheap, simple and very effective.Fraser

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2017, 01:08:05 am
content: While a vacuum will do the job, you'd be better with an actual extractor (fume / dust / whatever).A vacuum cleaner is designed to provide a high static suction. An extractor is designed to move air. The end result is a vacuum won't move anywhere near as much air as a similarly rated extractor, however it'll probably suck a boiled egg up the hose where an extractor would struggle to hold it against the outlet. Completely different machines for different circumstances.Fraser has the right idea with the bathroom fan. Lots of air at almost no pressure differential.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2017, 01:47:13 am
content: This is like the kit that I bought but it was only £12.99 on offer at the time. Even at £17 it is good value though. It is described as a shower ventilation kit. Very easy to adapt to many ventilation applications.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bathroom-Inline-Extractor-Fan-AirVent-434445A-Standard-Shower-Ventilation-Kit-/141893704413?hash=item2109861add:g:feAAAOSwXshWsL~sFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2017, 01:53:18 am
content: I have just found a picture of my exact kit which I attach for reference.Here are the fan unit specs:Standard Fan Manrose VSF100SHigh quality 4 Inch / 100mm Extractor fan from the market leading manufacturer Manrose products100mm ideal for use bathrooms (especially suited for locating over showers)23 Litres per second extraction rate (85m³ per hour)220-240v 20 WattsSound volume: 41.0db(A)Fraser

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2017, 06:18:51 am
content: Very nice. If you can indeed vent outside, that's amazingly cost effective.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2017, 12:08:30 pm
content: The good thing about these shower extraction fans is that there are many nozzle shapes, adapters and extra hoses. I actually purchased a round hose to narrow rectangular duct adapter that cost only a few pounds. The adapter enables me to only open the window a small amount and I can fill the rest of the window gap with a piece of foam. Important in a country like the UK where we have plenty of cold weather.I love re-purposeing products and these mass produced 'in-line' extractor fans are such great value for money whilst being very effective air movers. I could not use my 3D printers with ABS filament without the extractors as it really stinks and stings your eyes. Not healthy.If carbon filter filtration is required for a closed loop air mover, with no exhaust to outside, I would just buy the standard cooker hood extractor carbon filter sheets from eBay. Very cheap and you get a huge sheet to play with. An extractor hose end grille is easily adapted to hold the filter material. Air flow will be reduced but if you buy the open cell type carbon filter, it should not reduce very much. I would still exhaust the air some distance from where you are working.The nice thing about these in-line fans is that they can be placed at any point in the hose...... start, mid or end. You can have the fan at the far end sucking air from the workbench so no motor running near you.Fraser

author: Markus Enginethrust
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2017, 06:55:25 pm
content: Wow Fraser, these look like a perfect solution!Thank you very much for this tip!

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2017, 10:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 05, 2017, 11:19:43 amHe may not want to if its cold outside, or if the wind is blowing into the window. If there is no air movement the fumes will go right into his face.Quote from: janoc on February 05, 2017, 11:19:43 amWhere is your evidence for this? I am studying this now and fan blowing across the bench isnotas effective as a fan used in suction with carbon filter. The problem is it simply blows the dirty air to circulate around the room. Yes opening the window in this case will help a lot. But extracting the smoke is best.Quote from: janoc on February 05, 2017, 11:19:43 amPlease don't do this. Holding your breath may avoid the worst peak of the fumes, but as I already stated particulates will hang in the air in the room for a long time (20-30min+ from 30s of soldering). Get a proper filter and fan or extractor.