Video Review and Teardown of a Keysight MSO-S Series 10-bit 20GS/s Oscilloscope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 02:31:52 pm
content: In this episode Shahriar does an extensive review and teardown of the Keysight (Agilent) MSO-S Series 10-bit 20GS/s Oscilloscope. This scope supports bandwidths up to 8GHz and 400M points of memory per channel. With hardware 10-bit ADCs as well as an ultra low-noise front-end, this scope offers an impressive dynamic range on all four channels. All scope features are software upgradable.The teardown consists of a close look at the acquisition board and the system blocks diagram. Various elements such as the ADC structure, FPGAs, memory and the time-base are all examines. The scope offers a +/-12ppb time-base with a 100fs jitter noise floor. Some basic performance measurements are also presented such as noise and SFDR.The wireless experiment shows the performance of the scope in demodulating very low-power signals on an RF carrier. A -75dBm 2.5GHs QPSK signal can be demodulated by the scope. The instrument can also demodulate a 16QAM signal in presence of an interfering signal which is 44dB higher in signal power. All demodulation experiments are performed using the Keysight VSA.The backplane experiments demonstrate the scope’s capability to perform jitter and noise analysis on multi-gigabit serial links. The built-in equalization software suites are used to find the FFE coefficients and those coefficients are used to perform hardware equalization in an FPGA communication link.Watch the video here: [1 Hour & 30 Minutes]http://youtu.be/l-PE7bNIDY0More videos at The Signal Path:http://www.TheSignalPath.com

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 03:31:34 pm
content: NICE.Ok, how much does it cost base, then with all options?

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 04:19:38 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on January 19, 2015, 03:31:34 pmStarting from about $20k all the way to >$100k with the options.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 04:41:32 pm
content: they use a rotational sampler. Wehn i did the review of that 30GHz beast they had a similar architecture.the first chip on the hybrid splits the incoming signal in time interleaved analog diff pairs.the adc then itself does more sampling and spreads the load on different converters.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 04:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 19, 2015, 04:41:32 pmYes, the only thing I wish they had done was to allow for 40GS/s on a single channel (which I suspect they could have done.)

author: es
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 05:30:48 pm
content: http://www.keysight.com/main/eventDetail.jspx?cc=CA&lc=eng&ckey=2451162&nid=-536902447.0.00&id=2451162There is a webcast and PDF slides on their web site. The slides are well worth a look.

author: vaualbus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 07:01:04 pm
content: Amazing video like always.Do you think that in the feature we will see more scope with 10bit ADC or for the rigol and other low end scopes we will remain to the 8bit ones?Also I have see the photos on twitter of you at lecroy about the 100ghz scope. We will se a review in the feature?

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 07:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: vaualbus on January 19, 2015, 07:01:04 pmRigol doesn't make their own ASICS, but it is likely that higher resolution ADCs from TI or ADI will find their way into low-end scopes.

author: vaualbus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 07:57:28 pm
content: but as far as I saw on the part list we can find adc up to 1Gs/s for example from LT. An If I rember right up 2 or so from AD. Nothingh to compare to 20Gs/s!

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 08:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: vaualbus on January 19, 2015, 07:57:28 pm5GS/s ADCs are available from various vendors and >80GS/s 8-bit ADCs are available from Fujitsu (for telecom applications). But you are right that the ASICs in high-end scopes are all made by Keysight/Tektronix/LeCroy.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 08:24:47 pm
content: Great video! Thanks for the explanations, teardowns etc.edit: Removed question which has already been answered.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 09:05:59 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on January 19, 2015, 07:41:38 pmThey already have:http://jaunty-electronics.com/blog/2013/10/look-inside-teledyne-lecroy-hdo4024/Tek also uses TI ADCs in their low end scopes (I've been curious and pulled apart the firmware update...) It seems as if Agi^H^H^H Keysight are the only one left in the business with doing custom ADCs even in their low-end scopes. For reference, see the recent DSOX3000T Teardown, there were some power testpoints labeled TALON_. Talon is the ADC:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-2000x-has-lost-a-channel/It's really great to see instruments like these on Youtube. Keep it up!I'm wondering whether all these ICs with heatsinks are FPGA's. I'm guessing some of these may be ASICs... Do you still have the Board and take hi-res photos of it? This would really add much value to the video.I'm wondering who designed the new infiniium scope app GUI. The new app may provide nice features like placing waveforms on external screens, but the main screen looks way more cluttered to me than the old one. Their custom theme for the scope app isreallyugly too, just look at all the horrible gradients and misproportioned up/down buttons next to the input fields. The old one was much better, they didn't to any custom theming, just the bare Windows controls. But the migration to ugly custom themes seems to be part of the Keysight branding stuff, since the Connection expert application also got some crazy theme...

author: vaualbus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 09:13:22 pm
content: By the way LT not have 1GS/s ADCs. The higher I can find is the maxi MAX109 that is a 8bit 2.0GS/s ADC.

author: vaualbus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2015, 09:21:19 pm
content: Quote from: Lukas on January 19, 2015, 09:05:59 pmThe photo you linked is not from the lecroy scope I was said I was speaking about a 100Ghz 240Gs/s scope. Here a photo of it:http://teledynelecroy.com/100ghz/.Seem very good and very expensive!

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 03:06:24 am
content: Quote from: vaualbus on January 19, 2015, 07:01:04 pmThat was supposed to be a surprise!

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 03:49:22 am
content: Another great one, thanks.

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 04:53:42 am
content: Everyone can show xxxxx$ machine on youtube, but only Shahriar can make some very well thought experiments to actually show how that machine can pay for itself.Really liked example with serial channel equalization, shown so even newbies can understand what is that all mean.Keep up with great job

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 06:32:17 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 20, 2015, 05:16:32 amHey, no need to become offensive

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 06:35:44 am
content: Quote from: vaualbus on January 19, 2015, 07:01:04 pmRumor has it that we might see some reviews of LeCroy scopes from Shariar in the near futureI just hope they don't just send him a WaveAce

author: vaualbus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 12:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 20, 2015, 06:35:44 amI wish to have them on eevblog we have very few lecroy review. Dave havenj't review a lecroy scope a part from the broken one that at the end cannot be repaired.

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 01:26:48 pm
content: Having gone back and watched many of your videos now, I have to say that I really like how you incorporate experiments into your reviews! I think that is one of your key features that makes you different from the EEVBlog and Alan's channel. I find it amazing how with the three channels, you all each have a different approach to electronics, reviews and tutorials and all of them are top quality! Thank you very much for all the work you put into your videos Shariar!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 01:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: vaualbus on January 20, 2015, 12:38:18 pmI think it's unlikely we'll see them on EEVBlog, but frankly as long as it's reviewed by someone competent I don't care much who does the review.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 01:38:01 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on January 19, 2015, 07:41:38 pmI'm not sure that will be the case - the vast majority of mainstream scope users don't need more resolution. Unless they can use the extra bits for additional functionality like spectrum analysis

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 05:20:53 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 20, 2015, 01:38:01 pmThe same was once said about storage scopes or digital scopes, or functionality like FFT.At the moment it looks like the market is slowly moving to scopes with 10/12bit vertical resolution. Obviously it starts in the high end, but like other functionality it will eventually trickle down into entry level scopes.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 06:03:47 pm
content: The advantage of higher resolution scopes is not just in spectral analysis. It is also in large dynamic range signals in time domain, large spikes, supply switching noise, interference analysis, etc. I would be surprised if 10/12-bit scopes would not become the standard in a few years. Making a 10-bit, 1GHz bandwidth ADC is now considered "easy" by state of the art ADC standards.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 07:20:28 pm
content: I am going to the Design Con show next week in Santa Clara and this scope is on the list along with the LeCroy HD's. I like the high dynamic range for developing power systems. Agisight also has a new probe to help with power related measurements -http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2471132-pn-N7020A/power-rail-probe?nid=-34024.1105670&cc=US&lc=engTrying to figure out how they get 8Ghz through a BNC connector. I thought that was beyond the limits.This S series scope is beyond my needs and understanding but I feel that I will learn much faster if I get great instruments from the beginning. It may also get me started in RF without immediately needing a dedicated SA. The 4000X is closer to my budget but I will not likely outgrow the S series for what I hope to do in the future.

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 07:46:19 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 20, 2015, 07:20:28 pmWhen Dave played with Agilent 90000 series 13 GHz unit I asked the same question and of course "Free electron" had a interesting and detailed answer:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-316-more-pfang-more-13ghz-scope-more-pulser/msg130496/#msg130496

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 08:34:04 pm
content: Thank you for the link.I have seen similar in the broadcast field where we had (75ohm) at 270/Mbps in the late 80's early 90's. Now we have gone up to 6/Gbps over 75 Ohm/BNC. That is 12 gig/transitions/s The connectors and cables have definitely changed but I never noticed how much. It is amazing that the 6G signals can go 100M/328ft and still have some function. There are some line drivers and EQ's that are far beyond my knowledge.It seems the the center pins are swiss machined and EDM sliced for amazing precision.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 08:35:08 pm
content: Quote from: Nermash on January 20, 2015, 07:46:19 pmThanks for this, I will echo what free-electron said and point out that the 62GHz scope uses a V-connector while LeCroy's 100GHz scope requires a 1mm connector. The connectors on this scope are not BNC, they just look like BNC and are BNC compatible.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 03:52:25 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 20, 2015, 01:28:36 pmWhich model would you like reviewed?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 03:59:44 am
content: The HDO4000 series. 12bits sounds delicious but sampling rate is modest. Would love to see it in action without the marketing spin.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:16:15 am
content: Quote from: vaualbus on January 20, 2015, 12:38:18 pmLecroy contacted me years ago interested in my doing reviews, but then they declined. I don't think they like my "terms and conditions", i.e. I'm allowed to say anything I want, they don't get to vet the video, and it won't be an infomercial

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:20:46 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 20, 2015, 01:38:01 pmAnd then you have to offload that analysis responsibility to a PC. Otherwise you end up with scopes like these ones that are essentially Windows desktops with an acquisition board.Try using one of these scopes for everyday bench use, as awesome as they are, you'll throw it out in frustration.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:21:27 am
content: Did I hear that you'll be doing more videos on this?Are Keysight are letting you keep the scope for future videos?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:53:55 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 20, 2015, 05:20:53 pmMore bits. More samples per second. Lower price. Pick any two.The market for exotic instruments is small. So small, that most engineer's product ideas get thrown out as having too small an appeal at the price which can be reached. For a particular budget you can have more bits or you can have more samples per second. Which are most people going to choose?If 100MHz bandwidth is adequate for most general purpose use, maybe people will go for more bits in a DS1000Z class machine, until a budget scope starts to really perform well in other roles, like frequency domain analysis. If most people crave more bandwidth, a DS1000Z class machine will become a 200MHz, and then 300MHz machine. Most people buying general purpose instruments have quite a vague idea about what they actually need, so it could go either way.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:24:46 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 21, 2015, 04:53:55 amI don't see it happening on low end general purpose bench scopes. If you want more bits, there are plenty of PC based DSO's on the market that specialise in exactly that.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:37:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2015, 05:24:46 amSo, where do you think Rigol goes from here? Will their $399 scope become a $199 scope, or will then add functionality to keep it hovering around $399?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:15:58 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 21, 2015, 05:37:43 amDecent entry level scope sat around the AU$800 mark for many decades.Only in the last 4 years or so has that dropped to $400.I think we have a long long time to go before a decent entry level scope will drop to $200, if that is even possible.These are not consumer items. Just like PC's they use some premium parts, and the costs of those parts stays pretty constant with time and performance improvements.This is why we don't have a $100 desktop and notebook computers today.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:23:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2015, 04:20:46 amBasically all the everyday scopes I use (work and at home) are Windows scopes, and granted while I'm not particularly a fan of Keysight's touch interface (which evolved from the ugly Infiniium 86800 Series which was clearly designed for mouse use, and this shows even in their current UI) I can't say I've ever felt the urge to throw it out of the window or replace it with a non-Windows scope. More to the contrary, having to go back to a non-Windows scope would definitely be a step backwards for me.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:29:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2015, 06:15:58 amThe entry level scopes from Rigol are only $250 right now. Now that a $399 scope has a pretty decent display and controls, its mostly limited by parts whichdokeep getting better and cheaper - ADCs, and FPGAs. Memory is already so cheap, that its largely irrelevant. Just taking the current $250 DS1102U and $399 DS1054Z, and allowing another 5 years of ADC improvements to nudge them forwards is going to take them somewhere interesting and new.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:40:27 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 21, 2015, 06:29:05 amNot in Australia they aren't.QuoteThe mature parts do, yes, but my point is thta new scope releases have to "up the ante" in specs, and better specs always cost more in the parts base, likely using newer chips.QuoteYes, but I content that they won't get any cheaper, because the onward march for better specs means they have to use newer and more expensive parts to keep that edge.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:59:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2015, 06:40:27 amIt must reach you soon. Go tohttp://www.rigol.com, choose the option in Chinese (which just says China) for the region, and just look at the scrolling picture sequence at the top of the page. You don't need to read Chinese to see the model numbers and prices in Yuan. Just apply your local exchange rate. They don't even bother offering a striped down version of the DS1102U. Its just offered as 100MHz 1Gs/s. If a hobbyist can't afford $399, they'll do just fine with that $250 scope.This forum displays Chinese characters OK when you preview what you have written, but when you post they turn into question marks.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:25:07 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 21, 2015, 06:59:00 amWhat is this 1102U version you speak of anyway?No mention of it on Rigol's website, just the 1102E, or practically anyone else in the western world. I just see Aliexpress:http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/NEW-Rigol-DS1102U-100MHZ-2Channels-Oscilloscope-1GSa-s-16Kpts-Memory-Depth-USB-5-6-TFT-LCD/506853_2053254028.htmlTo me that's not a readily available scope.And also it's only got 16K of memory it seems, hardly a modern scope. So I don't consider it a contender at all.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:39:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2015, 07:25:07 amRigol doesn't seem to sell its chromatography or photometry products outside China, but I don't think they have restricted any of their electronics test equipment to China. Therefore, I assume the DS1102U will be distributed globally. Now you can walk in a shop in China and pick up a DS1054Z from stock, they've started offering a 200 Yuan coupon with those, and some places are discounting. They've also dropped the price of the DS1102E in most places to only slightly above the DS1102U, as they are very similar products.16k isn't adequate for an advanced scope, but its fine for an entry level one. Be reasonable, its all most scopes had for most of the life of DSOs.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:49:41 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 21, 2015, 07:39:29 amLooks like the start of a price war. All three (Siglent, Hantek, Rigol) are going to have quite a battle below 300.00 usd.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 09:44:01 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 21, 2015, 07:39:29 amSure, but you expect at least 1M of memory in today's scopes, that's the benchmark, just like 20MHz dual channel analog was the entry standard for a decade. Been that way since Rigol released the 1052E 6 years ago now.When I spoke of the $800 entry level scope before, you have always been able to buy lower, but it was single channel, 5MHz, or whatever.That's what I'm talking about here. In today's age the benchmark has become dual channel, 50MHz, 1GS/s, and 1M of memory. And the 1054Z raises that to 4 channels and 12M.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 10:15:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2015, 09:44:01 amMemory is so cheap there appears to be no reason to design in less than 1M today. However, the DS1102U looks like a spin of the DS1102E, and lives with its limitations. Right now they are competing with low end scopes from people like Uni-T, who's products are steadily improving. For $250 I can buy a 100MHz Uni-T scope with a much nicer display than the DS1102U, so its not exactly aggressive for Rigol to set that price. I regularly use some Uni-T 100MHz scopes we bought 4 years ago for about $300 each. They aren't very sophisticated, but they do the job.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 11:04:59 am
content: I don't see a reason why scopes need to get much cheaper - for a specialist item they are easily cheap enough for the vast majority of users.A race to the lowest price is good for nobody in the long term.Rigol now have sufficient reputation that they don't need to compete with the lower-end Chinese brands with flaky firmware and zero support.I think we will see more functionality at the lower end, in particular common protocol decodes and triggers like I2C, UART and SPI, and segmented memory becoming standard, as these have negligible production cost.As regards memory size, in terms of usefulness it's a case of diminishing returns - the benefit of, say, 8M over 1M a tiny compared to that of 1M over 16K.Memory is cheap, but the bandwidth to handle larger memories quickly isn't so much.I do wonder how long it will be before we see Rigol doing their own ASICs - their volumes must now be getting to where they would be economic.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 12:08:49 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on January 21, 2015, 03:52:25 amI personally would really like to see a review of the WavePro 7zi-A and the WaveMaster 8zi-A, especially with some of the options. This is the category of scopes that are my day-to-day scopes and therefore the most interesting for me.I guess that we'll also see a new WaveRunner in the not too distant future (the current WR6zi came out around 2009) and when that happens a review of that scope would be nice. Hell, I'd even be interested in a review of the current WaveRunner 6zi.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 12:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 21, 2015, 11:04:59 amFor me it isn't. 8M instead of 1M means I can capture a much longer period or keep running at full sample rate in longer time bases.QuoteMore memory doesn't mean more bandwidth. It doesn't matter if the sample memory is 8k, 16, 1M, 8M or 1G, the bandwidth necessary is always the max sample rate of the ADC.Fast memory like GDDR5 is cheap, and giving a scope say 16M instead of 4M should increase the costs only marginally.But then less people would buy the larger and much more expensive models.QuoteWhat for? As long as cheap standard components do the job there's very little to gain in the market where they are (low end) by running their own ASICs.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 12:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 21, 2015, 12:17:37 pmI never said it wasn't useful, just that the incremental benefit reduces as you get into higher capacities.QuoteMore memory doesn't mean more bandwidth. It doesn't matter if the sample memory is 8k, 16, 1M, 8M or 1G, the bandwidth necessary is always the max sample rate of the ADC.It's not about acquisition, it's about display. You need to be able to process the aquired data into an intensity-graded display, be responsive to user controls for pan & zoom, and do measurements on it. More memory requires more work to do this.QuoteWhat for? As long as cheap standard components do the job there's very little to gain in the market where they are (low end) by running their own ASICs.At some point you need more than you can do economically in an FPGA. FPGAs are not an efficient use of silicon area, and the bigger you go, the more money you're paying for unused silicon area for routing etc.e.g. Agilent putting the acquisition memory on-chip means there is no slowdown with measurements, protocol decode or any need to use less than the full amount of memory.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 01:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 21, 2015, 11:04:59 amIts not a matter of racing to the bottom. The $399 DS1054Z s already a cheap tool for a professional or serious hobbist in a developed country. In developing countries its a lot. In places like Brazil, with bizarre import duties, it becomes a lot. For a student its a lot. For a parent whose 12 year old shows an interest in electronics its a lot. A DS1102U at <$200 would be terrific for these people.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:14:05 pm
content: The S-Scope take 60 seconds to go from OFF to ready for measurement, and that is with all toolboxes loaded. When I first got the scope and all the options were not enabled, it was ready in 45 seconds. At the same time, the scope can run Matlab, remote desktop, VSA and every other windows application I would want. I really prefer the Windows based scopes for these reasons.

author: vaualbus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:35:39 pm
content: Shahriar You are getting important now. Even keysight on facebook have add your video in the Keysight oscilloscope facebook page!

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on January 21, 2015, 04:14:05 pmDoes anyone honestly turn on their scope 60 seconds before needing a measurement? I tend to "warm up the bench" right as I walk up, getting things configured, reviewing paperwork, thinking about where I left off the day before, etc.... I would not notice if the boot time was 5x as long.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 21, 2015, 12:45:17 pmIt's not about acquisition, it's about display. You need to be able to process the aquired data into an intensity-graded display, be responsive to user controls for pan & zoom, and do measurements on it. More memory requires more work to do this.Not really. It doesn't matter how large the sample memory is, the amount of data to display doesn't change. The memory size also doesn't matter much for zoom/panning, intensity grading or measurements (which are taken from the display on most scopes anyways).The only impact of large memories would be for memory search which most entry level scopes don't even have.QuoteAll true, but running your own FPGAs means a noticable investment, which doesn't necessarily pay off in the low end market.QuoteAnd as a result they have difficulties competing with Rigol on the one parameter that is paramount in the low end market - price.

author: donmr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on January 21, 2015, 04:14:05 pmThe usable lifetime of MS-Windows is far shorter than that of a good scope. What do you do then?Where I work we have some Infiniiums that run Windows 98. They are still great scopes but there have been no security upgrades for a long time (If I was willing to install them in the first place). The IT folks don't like our having these old machines on the network.I guess we could setup some secondary networks at our benches, but we'd loose easy access to printers etc.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:47:57 pm
content: This is the new reality, good or bad.Since the manufactures can rely on pre-built OS with all the I/O, applications, displays, etc.etc... they can focus solely on the acquisition and subsequent DSP. Would you prefer that Agisight have a proprietary OS that adds huge cost and is probably way less functional today and tomorrow compared to Windows.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:53:02 pm
content: Quote from: donmr on January 21, 2015, 06:37:20 pmThey can deal with it, that's their job. Surely they can figure out some solution that lets you control the scopes without them being exposed to the Internet. Like, uh, a firewall? It's an oscilloscope, not a PC, it's not like they have to secure it against people browsing the Web on it.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:06:18 pm
content: Quote from: donmr on January 21, 2015, 06:37:20 pmThe scope will continue to work long after MS has stopped supporting the OS. I don't see any issue with that. The scope can sit on an isolated network if needed. The advantage of Windows far outweighs anything else.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: vaualbus on January 21, 2015, 04:35:39 pmImportant now? O0I thought running the high-speed ASICs design team at Bell Labs was already pretty important. (I am kidding of course, I appreciate the sentiment)Keithley and Tektronix have posted my reviews before on their Facebook page. I should finish my own facebook page... I have been putting it off.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on January 21, 2015, 07:07:59 pm

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:33:46 pm
content: Quote from: donmr on January 21, 2015, 06:37:20 pmJust continue working? Just because support for a Windows variant ends doesn't mean the scope suddenly stops working.QuoteThere are many ways to keep these devices on the network without them being able to access internet (i.e. by removing Default Gateway or Nameserver settings), even when they're running Windows 9x.On newer Windows variants like W2k and later (which are all built on NT) they can block IE or any other non-essential program easily via GPOs. They could block web access via settings in DHCP or through the firewall for the scope's IP. And any somewhat decent business firewall easily detects the Windows version and can automatically block out old Windows variants from internet access.There are many ways to secure such devices sufficiently without much effort.If printing is all you need then your IT bods could just put the scope in a vlan together with the printer. And really, a lab should have its own separate network without internet access anyways, at least if your data has some kind of value.All this aside, do you really think things would be better with a networked test equipment that runs some other OS (i.e. Linux, Windows CE, VxWorks)? All these OSes have vulnerabilities, and many can be used for malicious activity if the attacker is just motivated enough to bother. For example, you have one of the HP/Agilent Logic Analyzer that run HP-UX? More vulerabilities than you can shake a stick at. Even worse, T&M manufacturers rarely provide security updates for their kit. With Windows at least you can patch the OS yourself while it's being supported by MS.Of course some companies have policies of not allowing unsupported operating systems on their corporate network. But then this means that virtually any networked test instrument which is no longer supported by security updates is off-limits, not just the ones running Windows. This, again, can be solved by a separate (V)LAN.It sounds the real problem is your apparently incapable IT department.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:58:19 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 21, 2015, 05:25:17 pmThis, and the fact that most test equipment wants a certain "warm-up" period (usually between 10 to 20mins) anyways to produce reliable results.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 03:40:41 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 21, 2015, 07:58:19 pmYes, this is true as well. You may not care for a quick measurement, but generally important.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 04:38:29 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 22, 2015, 04:05:32 amAnalog circuits are affected by temperature as well since device properties drifts with temperature. For example, consider a multimeter. Aside from many other components, the reference voltage drifts with temperature. So if the unit is calibrated at a certain temperature then you want to wait to reach that temperature again to have results as close to the calibrated parameters as possible.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 08:54:30 am
content: I think it depends on what you're doing, if you just want to check something for reasonableness, then the need for a 20 minute warmup isn't really necessary. But if you're trying to get a very accurate analogue reading of, say, voltage or timing, then it makes sense. Sometimes you may be contractually obliged to only take readings while the unit is in calibration, which the manual may well say to wait half an hour or so.You should only do self-calibrations once the unit's warmed up and reached thermal equilibrium.I have an old HP 1980B, one of the first commercial DSOs, and it makes a significant difference on the analogue and digital trace alignment, you really need to leave it on for at least half an hour. Trouble is that to adjust the alignment, you need to take the lid off, which also changes the thermal equilibrium point!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 09:11:42 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 22, 2015, 08:54:30 amMaybe your one has degraded with age, or the cooling path needs cleaning out. I used those when they were new, and I didn't see any significant variation between using one outside on a cold winter's day, or in a hot room with inadequate ventilation (my two typical usage environments :-) ).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 12:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 22, 2015, 08:54:30 amThe HP 1980B itself is an analog scope, not a DSO. It has a microprocessor controlled front panel with LED readouts but it's still analog.There later was an option (HP 19860) which added digital storage, however this option was primarily designed for storage and transferring waveforms into a computer, and it actually sampled the CRT vertical deflection signals. I guess a HP 1980B with option 19860 could be called an early DSO.

author: electronic_eel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2015, 11:59:40 pm
content: How does the MSO-S compare to the Tek MDO4000-series?Can the MSO-S trigger on FFT, like a power level at a specific freq range?Does the MSO-S have something similar to the simultaneous view of time and frequency domain in the MDO4000 where you can scroll through the digital signals on one channel while viewing the frequencies at that time on the other channel?How do the rf signal analysis capabilities of the Tek SignalVu software compare to the Keysight VSA?

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2015, 04:59:34 am
content: Quote from: electronic_eel on January 24, 2015, 11:59:40 pmI believe this type of triggering is possible, I don't see why it would not be. I will have to double check.QuoteYes, there is a scrollable gating window which can be used for this exact purpose. All FFT or analysis can be done for the sliding window.QuoteThe capabilities of the VSA is comparable to SignelVue. The VSA offers some additional features.

author: electronic_eel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2015, 09:55:02 am
content: Thanks for your answer.Quote from: Hugoneus on January 25, 2015, 04:59:34 amTriggering on any math function, let alone FFT, is not a common feature for scopes. I haven't seen any scope yet which can do it.So it would be nice if you can check if it is really possible with the MSO-S.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2015, 10:47:53 pm
content: Wuerstchenhund beat me to it on two points.Security in any but the most secure of networks should be satisfied by a VLAN with access restricted by MAC address, Firewall, users etc. Note the most secure machines are either not a network or physically have no external access at all.I also wondered about the advisability of using the scope immediately considering the oven controlled reference oscillator. Surely unless one is measuring below maybe 500Mhz (?) any fine measurements would be suspect.Shahriar please take the following comment as a, hopefully, constructive criticism:-I really enjoy your videos but I have to admit to not being able to understand some of what you say, even after replaying the relevant sections several times. Partly this is due to me not recognizing the acronyms, but more is due to the fact that your enthusiasm and thus your rate of speech is sometimes at the expense of clarity; to me at least.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 04:10:22 am
content: Thanks Dave for the suggestion. Unfortunately sometimes I have to go through some material quickly because of time constraints. I'll try to define the acronyms in the future.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 06:04:05 am
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on January 26, 2015, 04:10:22 amJust an idea, but how about an creating an acronym list in this forum, i.e. in a sticky thread? You could then just refer to it instead of having to explain them again and again in your videos, and the list could come in handy if someone wants to check some acronym he read in a thread or saw in some documents.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 06:35:17 am
content: I did some work for United Space Alliance a number of years ago at Kennedy Space Center. I was shown the binder system they had that was essentially all the official acronyms in the entire NASA system. Jaw on the floor!While doing my work, I could barely understand what anyone was saying because they essentially speak in 99% acronym.

author: albert22
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:27:50 pm
content: ShahriarWhen I saw that your video duration was 1:30hs, I thought: No Way. Then I decided to FFWD to "compress it". Finally viewed the entire length. It is worth every second in it!!! And I am going to watch the experiment on EQ again.This happened with many of your videos so I learned not to skip any part of them. Please keep your pace. You give a lot of info without unnecessary repetitions or verbose. This is very uncommon on youtube. I rarelly have to go back if I miss something and english is not my first language.Quote+1Thanks for your excellent videos

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 09:50:07 pm
content: I was also intimidated by 90 minutes of oscilloscope madness, but could not find any reason to fast forward through any of it. There are a ton of of lessons embedded in the experiments designed to show the features of the scope. I like being able to "see" the logic and reasoning unfolding in front of me.

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2015, 10:44:02 pm
content: Interesting the 10 bit scope. But are you sure this is a real 10 bit scope?It seems to me that this scope is 10 bit just at full sampling rate...on all other sampling rate just a standard 8 bit scope.So not very interesting for long memory application like in power electronics...No infos about the 10 bit at just full sample rate on any official document...

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 08:16:01 pm
content: Do you work for LeCroy by chance?

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 10:41:24 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 30, 2015, 08:16:01 pmMine is just a question because someone told me that it seems not a 10 bit scope for lower sample rate.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 10:57:18 pm
content: Copy that, just wanted to ask.I am going to dig through the data sheet if I can. I have almost saved enough $$ for a new scope in this class and will be needing to make a decision in a few months. I am interested in the 12bit LeCroys for sure but the bit depth comes at the price of sample rate. Is it a problem? Not sure yet. Keysight vs LeCroy does not have a clear winner for what I need. I have scheduled demos mid-summer where I can A-B compare and make the largely personal decision about which way to go.For me, I want to have the whole team on the same brand if at all possible to control learning curve, integration, accessory sharing, and service.

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 11:08:27 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 30, 2015, 10:57:18 pmWhich BW do you need?If you are looking for 500Mhz or lower BW, sample rate is not a issue for the 12 bit scope. 2.5Gs are good enough. If you need 1Ghz, 2.5Gs/s are at limit...if you are able to test the S series scope, let me know how many bits they give at different sample rates.In any case I think both scope are excellent

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2015, 11:13:32 pm
content: I am going to start with at least 1Ghz even though I don't need it today. More than likely going to be 1.5Ghz. It will have to cover a wide range of tasks from SMPS design and validation to high-speed digital. Trying to make a decision that will least likely create a limitation for me in the next few years. Once I get all the learning curve and tricks figured out - it would be a bummer to be pressured to 'upgrade'

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2015, 11:22:25 pm
content: Just an option (I know you weren't too worried about the lack of warranty from your thread) the Keysight used store on eBay. There are a few scopes in your class (1GHz). As of today:DSO9104H - 1GHz - £3,604 (~$5,500?) - Note the H for high definition, bandwidth upgrades to 4GHz, touch screen 15.1" XVGA screen, can get 1GPts memory, 10GSa/s (?).D/MSO7104B - 1GHz - £4,855/£5,356 - I prefer the 9000 series layout, but the 7000 is an Infiniivision scope, so maybe the layout is familiar? 12.1" display (touch screen isn't standard)There are many others for ~£3000 (~$5000), with lower bandwidths but can be upgraded.Hope this helps a little, no affiliation to Keysight, just looking into their scopes I can't afford for planned research. You'd better appreciate the effort to format this text on an iPad!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 05:22:28 am
content: Quote from: JackP on May 31, 2015, 11:22:25 pmThe DSO9kH is not a true 12bit scope, that's an 8bit scope which uses oversampling techniques to get 12bit resolution (and it does 12bit only up to 500MHz, even on the higher bandwidth models). It has been discontinued after a pretty short time as Agilent finally came up with a true 10bit scope.In terms of new HD scopes, there's also the R&S RTO which claims up to 16bit vertical resolution (option K17), although it looks like it's also done via oversampling:http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/en/product/rto-productstartpage_63493-10790.htmlhttp://www.rohde-schwarz.com/en/product/rtok17-productstartpage_63493-77383.htmlQuoteNot sure that is such a great price, considering the lack of a proper warranty. It's a bit embarrassing that Keysight doesn't stand more behind its older products, after all this is the manufacturer's shop, not a 3rd party.Just to give an idea what else can be had, last year I bought a LeCroy WavePro 7300A:http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portallive/docs/1/7293022.PDF3GHz, 20GSa/s 48Mpts, 10.2" touchscreen, and it came with all options enabled for approx $5k. That includes serial decode for a vast array of standards, power analysis (i.e. for SMPS design), full signal analysis, Jitter and Timing analysis, and so on.There are similar deals out there. LeCroy is often the cheaper option simply because most people often ignore them as they usually only think "Tek" and "Agilent" when looking for scopes.And although my scope is from 2008, I can still buy manufacturer warranty for it. Like with any LeCroy scope that is within the 7yr support cycle (7yrs after end of production/sale), I could send the scope to LeCroy for calibration, and if it passes I could buy one, two, three or (depending on the scope) even more years of full manufacturer warranty. It doesn't even matter where I bought the scope.

author: lukaq
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 06:58:35 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 30, 2015, 08:16:01 pmfor bell labs

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 07:01:00 am
content: I would love to do a field trip to your lab. Bet I could learn all kinds of fun things!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 07:45:16 am
content: Quote from: lukaq on June 01, 2015, 06:58:35 amThe question was for madmax96 not for Shahriar.

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 08:50:22 am
content: R&S is a classic 8 bit scope with the same Enob as any other 8 bit scope.They say they have > 7 Enob, but this is the Adc value that is true also for Tek, Agilent and LeCroy...just marketing.9000H is 8 bitS Series should be 10 bit just at 10Gs/s or 20Gs/s...for any other sample rate a classic 8 bit scope.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 04:59:00 pm
content: One point I would like to add to the discussion is that a low-noise (and linear) front-end is a major challenge for HD scopes. You can make a 50-bit ADC and it would not matter at all if your noise swamps the bottom 42-bits away. Same with THD/OIP3 of the front-end. Your ENOB can easily be THD limited and your ENOB can equal SFDR.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 08:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on June 01, 2015, 04:59:00 pmTotally agree and it is hard to get solid info about the 12bit LeCroy HD scopes. Not sure if it simply gives you a cleaner view of the noise or an improvement in the visibility of the real signal. I have not seen an independent test of those models to compare with the Keysight S-series.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 09:24:43 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 01, 2015, 05:22:28 amMay I ask where you found it at that price? Me restricting myself to eBay, I have only really found Agilent scopes, and they seem a perfectly good price for what they do. The catch, often no probes or options, which can easily cost many times the actual scope. Still, I think you could do worse and I like the newer interface in the 9000 series scope. I know free_electron has an MSO 7000 series (from the show you're bench thread), so maybe he could weigh in this conversation?Maybe with necessary options added and probing solutions included, this isn't a great deal. Did you get probes with your 7300A for that price?

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2015, 10:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 01, 2015, 08:50:22 amHow should the resolution decrease at decreasing sample rate?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 05:41:24 am
content: Quote from: JackP on June 01, 2015, 09:24:43 pmSure. A place called ebayQuoteHardly, unless of course you only search for Agilent/Keysight scopes. I'm not saying such deals appear there every day, but still become available several times a year.this is also a perfect example why LeCroy scopes often can be found for very low prices, because like you most people only search for "Agilent/Keysight" and "Tek" when looking for scopes, which means that even old or scopes with mediocre specs regularly go for very high amounts of money, while other manufacturers' scopes like LeCroy can be had for considerable less. Plus LeCroy offers the most advanced analysis capabilities of any scope manufacturer out there, which they are renowned for.QuoteI'm not saying the DSO9kH is a bad scope (it really isn't), but it's not a true HD scope like the LeCroy HDO Series because Agilent didn't manage to build a proper 12bit ADC at that time (and even the new S-Series is 10bit only). And if you really need the extended vertical resolution I wouldn't really opt for a scope that only achieves that by oversampling where you get the full 12bit resolution for a bandwidth of 500MHz.This aside, like Tek scopes, used Agilent scopes are often overpriced, and the fact that the manufacturer's ebay store doesn't even give proper warranty on anything except very new scopes is just poor and shows how much trust they really have in their kit.QuoteNo, it didn't come with probes, but I already had passive probes from my WaveRunner 64Xi, plus I bought a 500MHz differential probe for around $100 and a 1GHz differential probe for around $80. Had I wanted the original passive 500MHz probes for the scope then this would have cost me another $150 or so for four of them, and it would still be a bargain for a scope that when new did cost in excess of $50k.Same as with scopes, LeCroy probes can often be for very low prices, similar to their scopes. And because all their mid-range and highend scopes (with the exception of the WaveMaster, LabMaster and WaveExpert, which due to their very high bandwidth use ProLink) starting with the old 9300 Series from the '90s use the same probe interface (ProBus), there's a wide range of probes available.

author: blacknoise
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 06:39:58 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 01, 2015, 05:22:28 amFor $5k with ALL options enabled, that's beetween a bargain and a steal... ;-) But i don't begrudge you! Congratulations, well done!Since years my LeCroy search string on ebay is ("HDO" and "Zi" i added more recently):(osci, oszi, oscilloscop, oscilloscope, oszilloskop, waverunner, wavemaster, DSO, MSO, SDA, HDO, Zi) (lecroy, teledyne)...but such a sweety i missed... ;-)

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 07:05:07 am
content: Quote from: blacknoise on June 02, 2015, 06:39:58 amThanks, but as I said that wasn't really a once-in-a-lifetime offer (although it's still a pretty good one!). Patience buys you most on ebayQuoteI only search for "LeCroy" (limited to the "Business, Office & Industrial" category as I'm not such a great fan of LeCroy the Baseball player), and it takes maybe 5 minutes to skim through the noise to find the goodies.The problem with specific search terms is that you have to rely on sellers actually using them and spelling them correctly, which often isn't the case. For example, both differential probes I bought were listed as "LeCroy probe", nothing more.As to fully loaded LeCroy scopes, there's an American guy on ebay called "Technosaurus" who regularly sells fully loaded LeCroy scopes, on and outside ebay.BTW, as to good scope deals on ebay, there currently are some not too bad offers for Rohde & Schwarz RTM 500MHz scopes (not mine nor do I even know the sellers):http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-and-Schwarz-R-S-RTM1054-4-Ch-500-MHz-5-GSa-s-Oscilloscope-w-RTM-B10-/361269587436?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541d586dechttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTM1054-Oscilloscope-4-Channel-500Mhz-5Gs-S-w-Probes-and-Accys-/311372561485?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item487f403c4d

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 08:51:33 am
content: Another thing to consider when looking at the Agilent 5/6/7000 series is that all options can be enabled easily - segmented memory, UART,I2C,CAN,LIN,I2S decode, USB trigger and probably a few others I've forgotten.As regards warranty these scopes seem to have proved reliable long-term - I don't recall ever having seen a faulty one on ebay.

author: blacknoise
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 10:02:37 am
content: controllableQuote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 02, 2015, 08:51:33 amThis is also possible for the 9k, 90k (not yet tested - but it's the same firmware) and the S-series."easily" translates for this scopes into changing 1 byte (for the brute force attempt) or about 25 byte for a technical clean and still for each option separate controllable modifcation.Regarding the S-series: Including pushing a lazy xSO054A into a xSO804A sprinter... ;-)

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 11:34:11 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 02, 2015, 08:51:33 amThis is all well and fine but the problem of legality remains, and not everyone wants to get into this grey area.Also, the DSO5k/7k/8k are pretty limited in terms of available options, so even taking into account that these can be easily unlocked it's still pretty expensive compared to other alternatives.QuoteAgain, this is all fine and well but like any complex technical device these scopes do fail occasionally (at work we had quite a few with defects in the acquisition system and the LCD controller, plus one or two that just stopped accepting any user inputs via the front panel). Assuming that these scopes never fail just because there are very few defective ones on ebay is a bit silly really, as very likely the main reason why there are so few offers for defective newer Agilent scopes is the same as why there are so few offers of defective newer scopes from other manufacturers, which is that these scopes are young and valuable enough to be repaired before sale. In addition, quite a few are bought up by Keysight through trade-ins which then are resold via their store.Besides, if these scopes were as unlikely to fail as you seem to believe, wouldn't you think that Keysight then could offer more than just 30 days of warranty (which is what you often get from many private sellers on ebay)? If they were so upmost reliable then it should be easy for Keysight to include say 1 year of warranty, right? But I guess Keysight knows very well that these scopes occasionally do fail, and wants to wash their hands off it. Still, only 30 days for a manufacturer checked (supposedly) scope is pretty telling as to their confidence in their 2nd hand kit.As to warranty, I know that stuff sounds boring but when you're going to invest $5k into a 2nd hand scope then it would be silly not to consider that the investment might go up in smoke pretty quickly. With a newer scope like the DSO7k the chance might be pretty low, but it still could be the scope you just bought who's becoming part of the maybe 5% (just to name a figure) failure rate. If you can afford to lose all the money then good for you, but I'd wager that not everyone is as financially capable.Unfortunately, with something like the mentioned Agilent DSO7k scopes from the Keysight store, you already pay a premium for the name, and get less in terms of features and/or performance for your money, and on top of that there isn't even the option to buy manufacturer warranty for your scope.I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like the greatest value proposition to me. However, it works for them as long as most people fixate solely on Agilent when looking for scopes.

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 01:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: Lukas on June 01, 2015, 10:49:36 pmAlso for me it's not easy to understand why, it would be interesting to have some feedback from some guys testing this scope and getting also a feedback from a Keysight technician

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 03:19:18 pm
content: Fair enough - I was just searching for UK sellers. In the US, you can get a Wavemaster 8300A 3GHz scope with FOUR 1GHz active probes for under 10K, and 2GHz WavePro 960 for under 2K with some options installed, and...You yanks are a lucky lot.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 04:23:04 pm
content: Quote from: JackP on June 02, 2015, 03:19:18 pmReally? Why? I mean, not only are UK prices for T&M kit pretty expensive, but also the selection of options is really poor because the UK is a tiny market.Obviously limiting yourself to the UK means you'll simply miss the most of the great deals that are available.QuoteNot just the yanks. Even for us in the UK its usually still far cheaper to buy from the US, even with shipping and VAT on top.Although I'm not sure $10k is such a good price for a WaveMaster 8300A (the WM has only 50 ohms input, so the 8300A tends to go for noticeable less than a WavePro 7300A, and even for that $10k would be excessive).

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 07:58:06 pm
content: I suppose it depends on what you are purchasing. I get the impression, from what I've seen, that shipping anything bulky and/or weighty from the US to the UK is quite expensive.For something costing only a hundred dollars or so the shipping costs are a significant percentage, even in excess of the object being purchased. The more expensive the object the lower the percentage percentage should be although one might want insurance as well. Of course there's VAT on top too.Caveat Emptor

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2015, 08:28:20 pm
content: Sorry to bring this up again, but could someone elaborate on the difference between the Keysight 9K A and H models? I know the H models are 'high definition', but what about the A series?

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 12:03:57 pm
content: 9000A is a classic 8 bit scope.9000H is an 8 bit scope with over sampling always have on to get theoretical 12 bit...So nothing new...an 8 scope with hi resolution as you can find in all 8 bit scopeS series has a 10 bit Adc working at 10 bit but just at max sample rate. For all the others sample rate, it's an 8 bit scope. So it's typically 8 bit, with just 1 setting to have 10 bit.

author: memset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 11:13:32 am
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 17, 2015, 12:03:57 pmWhat's the sources of this info?Even if ADC can't work at 10bits on lower sample rates, some oversampling might occur to compensate this.