Will Home Automation & Data Cables be Part of Standardized Electrical Wiring  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 05:28:13 pm
content: will future electrical wiring rules include standardized data & home automation cables?for example requiring central CAT6 junction box with its cables running to all rooms in new buildings regardless of need.or will we continue to rely on overcrowded wireless network protocols.be interested to know-

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 05:39:28 pm
content: Surely if I will build my future home I will put >=CAT6 everywhere.I doubt it will become main stream:1) Average Joe don't see the advantage of cable ETH vs WIFI2) 99% Home builders wants to go as cheap as possibleThat said my cheap and horrible built 2013 USA home have CAT5 as telephone cable spread in almost all rooms. I re-used it for my 1GB ETH connections, mainly for mesh WIFI AP

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 05:40:48 pm
content: So many countries, so many standards and probably twice as many opinions :A)QuoteIf you mean "will the house get bult with home automation and data cables" preinstalled....If it costs more it won't. If it will increase the sale value it will. So it will dependB)Quotecurrent "electrical rules" probably already include "rules" or guidelines on cable type etc you can run with / without conduit etc -C)QuoteWiFi is a huge market. Will Cisco and the other players give it up? nope....and since we ain't gonna get a mobile phone with an RJ-45 plug any time soon (meaning never)....it's still a huge market !!!But what is the current issue you are facing ?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 05:59:42 pm
content: Quoteor as is common over here,can we make it an optional add on with a hefty mark up.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 06:01:41 pm
content: Huge numbers of people would stare an an RJ45 socket on their wall and simply wonder why the house has been wired for a land line in 2024, and doesn't that phone socket look larger than usual.

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 06:09:56 pm
content: I think a fair number of higher end homes, at least in the USA, come with some amount of built-in wired network connections. Stuff like POE is nice for things like outside security cameras (and personally I think it could be used for a lot of smart LED lighting but that doesn't seem to be a thing). But beyond ethernet, what standardized home automation wiring is there?Most HA protocols are wireless. Seems to me that wireless is the future. Wifi is undergoing continuous improvement and things like congestion are lessening as time goes on. It's also a lot more convenient.I'm not betting on it but maybe someday in the future someone will figure out safe and reliable wireless power delivery and then many gadgets can cut cords altogether. I could see that becoming a selling point for houses.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 06:48:19 pm
content: Quote...and once we figure out how to handle gravity, we can do away with mounting TVs on walls..the future is bright ( to compensate for my dark sarcasm )

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 10:36:17 pm
content: My guess is copper will be displaced by fiber.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 09:26:26 am
content: Quote from: coppice on June 13, 2024, 06:01:41 pmI was visiting someone in a hospital not that long ago and saw an old style (non-RJ45) Token Ring jack on the wall. I always wondered what happened to the person who made that decision

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 03:39:29 pm
content: I guess we will only be truly wireless when home appliances are self powered by micro cold fusion & defy gravity at sea level. like affordable silent flying cars.anyway back to reality- electrical & data wiring is still with us . I use CAT6 cable poking through walls between rooms for better security & phantom power but it looks messy as its not running inside wall cavitys.thank you all for responding

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 04:31:51 pm
content: surprised data over mains never really took off,guess the cost to profit ratio wasn't good enough.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 08:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 14, 2024, 04:31:51 pmDo you mean domestic LAN service over mains, or long distance? Short distance power line LAN modems sell in quite large numbers. Long distance power line communications modems aren't that fast, but for a time looked like they were going to be big business for smart metering. In reality most of the is now being done by radio.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 09:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on June 13, 2024, 05:28:13 pmAs home-automation doesn't need a lot of bandwidth, it makes no sense to use a wired protocol. Keep in mind that a wired data connection requires galvanic isolation. Another downside is that it typically isn't allowed to mix low-voltage data wiring with AC mains wiring. This makes a wired protocol very expensive compared to using Bleutooth LE. The BLE transceiver in a bulb or socket can be directly connected to mains without safety or regulations issues.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 09:18:36 pm
content: Quotelocal ,reversed POE if you like.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 09:19:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 14, 2024, 09:03:26 pmThese days home automation includes things like moving video from security, doorbell and other sources around the house. Also BTLE is very much a line of sight protocol. I don't know how it behaves in wooden houses, but in brick homes, or steel and concrete apartment blocks it goes around very few corners.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 09:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on June 13, 2024, 10:36:17 pmI don't think so. We need both, i.e. Ethernet TP cable for telephone, door intercom and LAN (<= 10GBase-T) and glass fiber for FTTH and LAN (>= 10GBase-xx). For TP I would go for CAT5e or CAT6 which are quite easy to install (CAT7 and above are finicky). For glass fiber I'd recommend to go for single mode which covers FTTH and high-speed LAN. This might require attenuators in some cases but is future-proof.. A mix of multi and single mode would make things only more complicated for a residential building.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 01:10:16 am
content: The empirical evidence is no.Here in the US proposals for a standardized interface were made sometime about the late 1980s. There were two fairly solid proposals, and the description makes fairly clear what one of the fundamental problems. They included power, ethernet, telephone and cable TV in a cable, and standardized outlet boxes. At the time these were proposed including POTS and cable connections made sense, and are now laughable. Cable cost per unit length was obviously high relative to simple power wiring. And having two competing standards hurt adoption of both. After a few years I never heard any more about these.The same general issues apply today. At least with WIFI the retrofit issues are pretty minor and obsolescence doesn't mean walls full of dead conductors.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 01:25:37 am
content: I am building my future home and have factored in conduits in all interior walls to allow for the ease of threading and removing ethernet cabling, along with CAT5 as generic 8 core wire for my control panels. No need to be locked into any standard that will probably become obsolete.I decided that any control system for the core controls, eg lighting, should be able to operate independently of any router or network connectivity in general.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 02:24:34 am
content: I would say Cat 6 (or at least Cat 5) has been a standard inclusion in new home and apartment builds in Australia for the past 15-20 years, in one form or another. In reality, that seldom means 1 or more ports in each of the rooms, usually it's 2 or 3 ports scattered "where ever". In more recent builds, I have seen more wall jacks appearing, which run to Krone terminal blocks, and while you could use them for Ethernet, I don't think that's the intention. Most apartment buildings here have fibre to the basement, then VDSL2 up to each unit. In newer homes, you generally see ethernet cable running to a central point, such as Clipsal's "StarServe" product (which is just a plastic cabinet mounted in/on a wall, with enough space to squeeze some basic networking gear inside).I ran 40 ethernet cables around my house when it was being built about 10 years ago, but I think even today, unless you're a hardcore IT or technology enthusiast, that would be considered overkill in homes.The vast majority of people don't really care about having a central switch and wiring their devices in, particularly as wireless ethernet just keeps getting better and faster. 6 GHz has already been ratified and is in-use, which opens up even more possibilities, particularly in RF congested areas.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 08:51:13 am
content: Structured cabling is really great when you rearrange things or a tenant changes. Just change the patch cable in the distribution panel and plug your router, phone or whatever wherever you want. I ask new tenents where they want their DSL/phone, do the patch, and crimp an RJ45 or make new cable for their device. And everyone is happy.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 03:15:09 pm
content: Building codes are generally concerned with safety and efficiency more than anything else. Even requirements for the locations of receptacles aren't really about convenience for the occupants, but about reducing the risk of fire due to overloaded receptacles or improper use of extension cords. Even if a standards body wanted to, the proportion of people who need/want data wiring in their home is probably too small, with too much variation in what kind of wiring they want where and for what purposes, to be able to build a standard around.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 05:37:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 14, 2024, 09:03:26 pmBut adding a tiny plastick fiber would be ok. So for existing homes that would be a cheap and neat solution.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 02:58:25 am
content: Just two more examples of how technology change fights against this.1. In older homes in the US (and probably worldwide) you can find the connectors for a long wire antenna used for AM broadcast reception.2. In somewhat newer homes you can find connections for broadcast analog TV. The antennas are either in the rafters and may still be there, or were on the roof and are usually gone.The people who installed these things thought they were worthwhile and maybe even thought they would last "forever". But the golden age of AM was perhaps forty years. Analog TV lasted a little longer. Wired ethernet seems destined to have a similar lifetime.Houses, even in the US, last for decades. The technology we want for home control seldom lasts much more than a decade. Combine that with all the regulatory, cost and standardization issues and I just don't see it happening.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 05:05:07 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 18, 2024, 02:58:25 amI don't see that going away anytime soon. Unless you mean CAT6 eventually getting replaced with fiber, 10Gbps over UTP is testing the practical limits with the transceiver chips needing more voltage and running quite hot.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 05:44:26 am
content: So in short it makes the most sense that when building a home you foresee the use of some cabling whatever it might be and install some extra empty pipes from the central point where all utilities enter the home to each room.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 12:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 18, 2024, 05:05:07 amIn this context you should admit that CAT6 is already a replacement for at least two prior standards for Ethernet. If you had wired your home in the 90s you would be replacing it. And yes, at least some folks will be switching to fiber in the coming years. Kjelt has the right of it. If you want to future proof easily accessible cable runs are about the best answer you can give. Basements and attics are a wonderful luxury in this case.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:00:27 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 18, 2024, 05:44:26 amYep. But also when doing renovations in an existing home, is a good time to add extra pipes. Typically I add 1 or 2 empty pipes if that could be useful at some point in the future. The trick is to not overdo it though. For networking, Wifi is a much better option anyway so the only part of the network which needs physical wires are the critical connections between security related, high bandwitdh and/or high-reliability devices.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 18, 2024, 03:00:27 pm12 years too late

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:40:44 pm
content: Did you leave draw strings in them, and a diagram of what goes where as well.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 03:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 18, 2024, 12:56:19 pmMain problem with fiber at home is that it will need to be a lot more robust to last. Pretty much all residential fiber ISPs run the fiber line to a fiber to copper converter of some sort so they don't keep getting calls due to kids stepping on the fiber and breaking it. Probably a good solution for a home fiber LAN would be wall mount switches that convert the fiber in the wall to a bunch of RJ45 and SFP outlets.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 03:33:49 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 18, 2024, 03:40:44 pmNo, we use tension springs to pull wires through them, made sure nowhere to use less than 120 degree bends.Most pipes were filled directly however after the build with two 1.5mm2 wires (800V isolation) for mains or low voltage , currently most of them have 12V for my own led drivers. And cat6 for data and voltage to my leddrivers.QuoteYes have them all on paper, but should digitize them.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 03:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 19, 2024, 03:04:51 pmHave them since 2013 , if you use the version where the two cableconnectors can be seperate you shift them then tape the tothe pull string and a 19mm pipe is large enough.Have four fibers 10Gb to all main places in the home where the computers and NASses are and there a 10Gb switch which also diverts to 1Gb to other equipment.