Lighting  product designers cannot exist in the South of UK? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 12:09:50 am
content: Hello,There are seven lighting companies in UK who design their own products…..1…Forge Europa in Ulverston,2…EPA Excil in Normanton3…Harvard in Normanton,4….VisionAlert in Leeds5….Pulsarlight in Cambridge6…Mackwell in Walsall7…Orbick in WalsallAll of these are in the North of UK….or rather, North of central Birmingham, and exist where property and Industrial unit prices are cheap.(The only exception is PulsarLight, but these are an exception because they have a loyal customer base consisting of the MD’s ex-university friends from Cambridge University who are rich people in the Middle East.)Is it true that because profit margins are so tight in Lighting, it is just not viable to have UK lighting design companies based in the South of UK where property prices are too expensive?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 12:23:34 am
content: Quote from: treez on August 27, 2018, 12:09:50 amThe single biggest expense for any company is payroll. Property prices don't much come into it, other than you have to pay people more to live in expensive areas.However, business today is all about knowledge work, not about manufacturing. You can have the best manufacturing in the world, but if your designs suck that won't save you. So businesses have to pay good money for good knowledge workers, and good knowledge workers will demand the best pay in any location.So location, really, is not important for cost reasons, it is important for desirability reasons. Good engineers want to live in nice locations, so your business needs to be located in a nice location where people want to live. If you want me to live and work in the grimy north you are going to have to pay me a whole lot more than in the beautiful south (tongue in cheek, but you get the idea).

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 07:20:00 am
content: Quote from: treez on August 27, 2018, 12:09:50 amOf course. You mostly find high margin or high volume products being done in the South. The cost of living is around 30% higher in the South vs North, and that is reflected in salaries.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 08:21:31 am
content: Thanks

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 11:08:42 am
content: I don't know the UK situation, so can't react on that.What I have read about your posts from the company that you are in, you will be probably facing hard times to design and sell your own lighting gear.This is especially true if you don't have the experts around to create something with good lasting quality, buyers will shift to the competition, some for price, some for quality and guarantee (as far as that goes).LED has changed the Lighting business dramatically and even the big players struggle to think about how to earn money in the future.You see them moving from mass production of boxes to services.Services is the only thing left what can generate steady income streams in our part of the world.To be able to create services you need affiliated installers in all major cities in the big countries to do the installer and maintenance work for you.You earn from the software services you provide. This might seem hard to grasp for HW oriented people but look around what IBM has done for instance and what other big companies are doing. Look at the decreasing margins on consumer electronics such as tv's from 1990 to today, this will happen with consumer lighting products as well and also for industrial lighting, it will become a commodity that each small firm can produce and the margins will shrink and shrink.The only exception I can think of in the lighting domain are the ultra exclusive design fixtures, that look hot and preferably have an Italian originInstead of the $60 that Ikea charges you for such a fixture you can sell them for $2500 and still have a happy exclusive clientele.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 01:30:34 pm
content: Lets see, there is Chamsys down in the new forest, Zero 88 in south wales (if that counts), and a whole pile of film and TV lighting kit manufacturers around the reading area, IIRC ETC also have a design office somewhere down here.You put the design offices down south because that is where the Engineers want to be, and get the stuff made wherever is convenient for hiring cheap manufacturing talent.Regards, Dan.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 03:23:37 pm
content: Thanks

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 03:31:53 pm
content: I'm kinda wondering... why do you care? Either your company has a viable business model or it doesn't. The question you asked imo only makes sense if you're thinking about starting anew.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 03:35:44 pm
content: I think George (Chamsys) would be surprised to hear that he is not an Engineer, as he most assuredly is.Oh, add Avolites to the list (Park royal, London), to the list, and they have enough trouble with Chinese clones of flagship products that I rather doubt they middleman much.Lots of manufacture farmed out the far east of course, but you were asking about design not manufacturing (And actually both companies are known to build a reasonable amount of kit in the UK, with the cheap stuff sent overseas).It is worth noting that we are finding that for some things the local PCB assembly houses are actually reasonably close to competitive with the far east at least for the sorts of things we build, China is not the automatic go to location you would think unless volumes get truly massive.Seriously, drop the paranoia, there is a ton of work out there, just avoid the no margin stuff.Regards, Dan.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 04:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: treez on August 27, 2018, 03:23:37 pmTheir engineers hangout herehttp://www.blue-room.org.ukand I think you'll find that they still manufacturer in the UK.NJD design in the UK and manufacture in China. As I discovered a few years ago...

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 04:53:57 pm
content: Pointing Treez at the blue-room is just cruel!That place is wonderful for tech questions on event production and stage engineering but takes NO prisoners, never has, and the denizens like it that way (Back when I was working in that scene I tended to frequent the place), and yea, lots of engineers (and users) of various kinds of lighting kit hang out there.I foresee someones "UK is going down the pan" rants getting some epic flames in response.Treez if you go there, please read and get a feel for local custom before posting ANYTHING, old school usenet style netiquette very much applies if you want to fit in there.Regards, Dan.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 06:01:52 pm
content: Mode Lighting have been around many years in South of UKhttp://www.modelighting.com/

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 06:49:09 pm
content: Well Treez can overdose on lighting talk. Only problem is streetlights (even if LED) are not much higher in the BM pecking order than domestic lighting...

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 06:42:45 pm
content: QuoteThanks , i am sure he is a very great engineer.....but Chamsys is more than just a lighting co...its a very specialsed controls co.Avolites also, is a pretty specialist controls and software co...not the kind of raw lighting co that i am speaking of.