R&S RTO1012 Oscilloscope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: M.Hassem
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 03:48:17 pm
content: Hello guys, I'm new to the forum, but I've been following the EEVBlog for some time now.I'm here to say that I'm in charge of building an embedded electronics design lab in the company I work for here in Brazil. One of the main products we bought is the new R&S Scope of the Art. We bought the RTO1012, 1GHz, 10GS/s, 2 channel scope.I'm looking forward to review it, as soon as I receive the unit I might do a review on it. Anyone interested?There are a few quite good pieces of equipment coming too, such as the Tektronix AFG3000 series arbirtrary function generator and the DMM4050 bench multimeter. I've put a lot of effort in this lab and I'm sure the knowledge I've gained might help some of you through a choice like this in your career.Let me know if you're interested by posting here. R&S gave me a 60-day lead time, so I might review it in January or something.Best regards!

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 03:52:09 pm
content: That sounds like a hardcore non-hobbyist type of scope but I am looking forward to seeing it so I can compare to the agilents and tektronix I use at work. I am not really familiar with R&S.

author: M.Hassem
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 04:00:41 pm
content: For the time beeing I will leave you guys with an Excel file comparing the Agilent9000 series and the R&S. I've used this method, among others, to compare the products.We're going to do some hardcore FPGA and DSP stuff, related to digital TV content. It's not for the hobbyst, but I also design stuff @ home with a lot less than what we've bought here. I could give the review a hobbyst perspective on high end equipment and highlight the differences of low end and high end stuff.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 04:12:05 pm
content: I'm definitely interested. I'm not familiar with R&S scopes, so I'm curious how the stack up to the well-known brands like Agilent/Lecroy/Tektronix, especially the stuff that doesn't show up in a data sheet, like build quality, user interface, responsiveness, documentation and support.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 05:41:31 pm
content: Meanwhile, if you want to get a real hard one, watch this movie about the oscilloscopehttp://www.scope-of-the-art.com/en/movie/You need to press "continue" at the end of each section.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 06:17:56 pm
content: Nice! Rhode and Scharwz eh? Love to hear your review, good to compare the high end to the hobby end and see how big a difference is!One thing missing in the comparison, all things being equal, what was the price?

author: M.Hassem
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 06:45:57 pm
content: Well, in Brazil we use a currency called Brazillian Real, or BRL. We have ABUSIVE taxation, so I will reverse the price both gave us, which results in USD20,000. R&S included an MSO module, which is not in the market yet. We had to sign an NDA to gain access to the specifications.R&S also included some discount on the rental of Digital TV RF Generators, so we can do testing of our product @ the final stages of design. And at that price they included 2 1.5GHz active probes, the ones with the probemeter interface. They come with a survival kit, with lot's of different tips for different applications.I've been in touch with R&S for a while here in Brazil and they're keen to hear from us engineers what we want on their scopes. I've also heard the same speech from Tektronix (they have a new product coming in this price range for 2011, which I knew about after another NDA signed)I've used the R&S scope and it's simply amazing. The touchscreen is not that good, to me it's just something to go wrong. But the spectrum analysis tool and the docking of multiple windows, each one with their timebase/vertical scale is just AWESOME.

author: M.Hassem
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 06:56:33 pm
content: One thing that made quite angry was the sales pich of the Agilent personel, talking about upgradeable bandwidth. I mean, they sell me a hardware that positively can do 4GHz, they make a profit out of it, and I'm capped to 1GHz because of some software limitation. To remove that software limitation (much like Rigol does) they charge you almost extra 80% the price of the scope.To me that's just wrong and confusing. If they can make a 1GHz scope cheaper, why make it more expensive?Another thing quite annoying is that Agilent charge you a lot for pretty much everything. These days, debugging low speed I2C signals can be achieved for a couple hundred dollars, even less. So why charge me USD 1000 for a firmware update that allows me to debug I2C?I2C, SPI and RS232 should come as standard decoded protocols in high end scopes. Not high priced optional extras.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 07:03:02 pm
content: i'm interested!

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 07:42:21 pm
content: Yes, I agree without, that's the game many play. Its thus, nice to know if it can be hacked to release the limitation, but then you may void any warranty if its not an official release code. Its this kind of business ethic that can make one choose between one scope and another, the manufacturer's customer and business policies.I recently posted on a small item, a surge protector by APC. They warrant them for life, but few ever bother using the warranty. Well, my SPD blew 2 months ago, and I decided to test this policy. When I called, it not only took under 5 minutes to speak to a human being, but they mailed me the replacement before I even mailed the damaged one back.For Rigol, its good for personal use as I think I am on my own for the most part, or paying more than the scope is worth for out of warranty repairs, if needed.Quote from: M.Hassem on October 26, 2010, 06:56:33 pm

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 07:54:27 pm
content: Quote from: M.Hassem on October 26, 2010, 06:56:33 pmAs long as people buy that, they will continue to find new methods to squeeze another buck. Once the sales go down, they will soon offer "free upgrades". Same as with banks and loans, first they huged their money and lend it to no one, but when profit reports came out in red, they changed the tune.Market is the best regulator, and IMHO competition was never stronger in DSO segment than it is now.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2010, 10:37:05 pm
content: I think Chinese electronics have change the face of not just DSO scopes but most electronics now in the consumer market, at least in the medium to low end.When I began in electronics, $400 got you 1-5MHz analog scope, usually a neophyte Japanese equipment maker, very much like what from China provides today compared to the top players, or a Heathkit. 20 MHz or so ran close to $1000, and those are 1970s dollar.Quote from: Nermash on October 26, 2010, 07:54:27 pm

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 05:14:26 am
content: Here's my 5Mhz Heathkit Oscilloscope sitting on a shelf. It wasn't avery good scope, but I still learned an awful lot about circuits with it.The thing on top is not an oscilloscope. It's my spare Tektronix1240 Logic Analyzer.Scott

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 11:05:38 am
content: Looks like it exactly, I think! Did you build it or buy it assembled, it looks in good shape, practically new.Quote from: slburris on October 27, 2010, 05:14:26 am

author: chscholz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 05:15:48 pm
content: Certainly interested in your findings...As always, you need to be very careful with making purchase decisions based on published spec-sheets. Make sure to carefully read all footnotes, fully understand measurement conditions, what specs are "typical" and what specs are "worst case". Most importantly, ask yourself what is relevant for you and what is simply a marketing gimmick.Looking forward to your findings.ChrisQuote from: M.Hassem on October 26, 2010, 04:00:41 pm

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 05:46:17 pm
content: I found that when HP became Agilent in 1999 or so, the whole tack of the company changed. Previously it felt like you were dealing with a bunch of very talented engineers selling stuff, now it feels like there is a little group of very talented engineers, surrounded in a shield of marketing, sales and crap first line support people.Tek, at least when I last dealt with them, still seemed to be engineers for engineers. I found a small bug in one of their scopes, called, got put through to an engineer who worked on the software, confirmed the issue, and sent out a mail announcing the issue in under 24 hours. Admittedly, it was probably their most expensive scope, but you wouldn't even have been called back by Agilent within that time frame!R&S, the only piece of equipment I've used is an EMI tester (basically a spectrum analyser+++), but it was a well designed, reliable piece of kit. At the time (8 years ago now...), the thing that stuck out from me was the responsiveness of the UI, whereas a lot of the Tek and Agilent gear was slow and laggy. However, they also sent out engineers to demo equipment to users, which was a nice touch.

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 06:38:39 pm
content: I have always wondered why all the major scope vendors insist using Windows on their higher end models. Of course, the cost of the PC and OS is marginal compared to scope hardware cost and you can put all kinds of fancy pc signal analysis software inside the scope with no cost (to the manufacturer!) at all, and they can develop software features using a standard Windows PC, instead of tedious cross compilation.But still downside of that is boot time is annoyingly long (plus all the other windows annoyances), and in best case the scope pops up window in the middle of measuring session saying that Windows has installed updates, do you want to reboot the thing (option which is "no, but I think it must be done" is missing from the options)? Of course the scope suffers from all the other Windows features (like viruses and worms etc.) Why they do not put a highly optimized (boot time optimization included) linux embedded system inside the thing? I know it can boot within seconds, if optimized.For general purpose common work not requiring highest bandwidth or fancy analysis features, I think that mid-range scopes are more usable (no windows). I believe highest bandwidth (>>1 GHz) scopes do not even directly support 1 M? input (for understandable reasons). That makes measuring higher (anything more than digital levels) voltage lower frequency stuff quite clumsy compared to lower end scope. Yes, there is a "high impedance adapter" available, but that is still clumsy.Regards,Janne

author: M.Hassem
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 07:12:07 pm
content: Well, since you guys are quite interested, let me put you through some of the details of my choice:* I've demoed scopes from Agilent, Tek, Yokogawa and R&S. LeCroy was not considered an option because of corporate issues, even though I admit they're quite strong in this field. But sometimes you're locked to the options the company gives you.* I've had the chance to deal with (demo) the following scopes:- Yokogawa DLM2000 series- Yokogawa DL9000 series- R&S RTO- Agilent 7000 series- Agilent 9000 series- Tek 2000 series- Tek 4000 series- Tek 7000 series (DPO only!)I've started the choice process by thinking "Ok, since I'm the main user of the lab, let's do more with less money", and enumerated my requests for a scope:* Must be an MSO. I'm not fond of having the scope and logic analyzer separated for 99% of my designs. It's a nightmare to make these tools act together and time correlated.* Must be at least 500MHz, because we might be measuring clocks/signals up until this frequency. By using the rule of thumb of 8 to 10 times the BW, we should have scopes with 4 to 5 GS/s* Must decode I2C, SPI and RS232/UART* Deep memory is a total must and I expected 1Mpts per channel at least* Debugging capabilities, such as triggering on events, or statistical analysis, are highly desired.* 4 channels is a plus, but I rarely use more than 2 channels.* Price: no more than USD 15,000The usual suspects that meet those requirements were, at the time of my search:* Agilent MSO7054B* Tektronix MSO4054* Yokogawa DL9505Well, fair enough. I called in Agilent and Tek and I found daunting facts about these scopes you won't find quite easily:* The Agilent has 8mpts memory, total. If you turn on more channels, it's engineered to maintain the updtate rate of 100,000wvfm/s, so it will divide the memory among the channels. That will give you about 300 - 600kpts per channel, depending on the setup, if you use the all the channels. That's bad when you need large periods of data.* The Tek scope is INCREDIBLY slow. It has loads of memory, 10mpts per channel, but It fails massively in response. This is excusable, because I want to develop and debug, more than troubleshoot.* One thing you CANNOT excuse is the way Tek finds to make you decode protocols. You have to insert little cards on the side of the scope, so it will unlock the firmware's capabilities. Each card deals with unlocking one protocol and they cost a fortune. If you happen to lose one, you're screwed. If anything damages them, you're screwed.* The agilent scope feels stunningly chinese-ish. It feels cheap. Really, it feels like an 6000 series with a big display.* Both scopes have RIDICULOUS display persistence. The persistence is great, unless you need to really analyze any data using zooming in and out. If you try to zoom in/out, it only shows the last acquisition, which is ridiculous.* Signal analysis and math: both scopes have the basic. And that's it. No histogram, no user defined math functions.The Yokogawa on the other hand had quite a lot to offer. Really, it's a power house. It offers almost everything you would expect in this price range. Except it has the most ridiculously complicated user interface available in any instrument on Earth. It's so complex you have to study before you start working.Well, I can tolerate a lousy user interface, if it gets the job done, but then someone inside Agilent showed me the frequency response for the Yokogawa scope I was trying (yes, I let them all know they're competing against each other). It's just ridiculous. It's not at all what I'd expect from a 15 thousand dollar product. I cannot show you guys the picture, because of the NDA, but it's just ridiculous and I can't accept that.Well, after much testing of these products and a lot of sales pitch, I've decided "ok, let's see what's available if we spend a bit more". There was money available, so we raised the bar a bit. That's where R&S and the Agilent9000 series kick in.By this time Tek was pretty much out, because their next MSO product is a 70000 series, which was just too expensive. They're planning a new scope for 2011, something like a 5000 series scope, but that was not available to me (more details on that later).I'll continue this story later. Hope you guys enjoy my conclusion afterwards.

author: M.Hassem
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 07:25:16 pm
content: Quote from: cybergibbons on October 27, 2010, 05:46:17 pmI've heard from a couple of guys @ tek that Agilent now is 50% of the size ($$$) it was 2 to 3 years ago. I wonder if this is all true, but one thing they told me is really interesting: the guys that develop high end Tektronix spectrum analysis tools were hired from Agilent for big money.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 07:48:16 pm
content: Very clear to me you know precisely what you wanted and got what you needed. I find your insight into the other scopes very very helpful, in the end the spec sheets don't show real world workability, so its always best to audition an instrument you intend to buy.There certainly is a market to support new makers or smaller equipment manufacturers given the big name can have large quality changes with changing management priorities.Agilent is not the HP we all remember and it shows. Neither is Tek as I recall.Quote from: M.Hassem on October 27, 2010, 07:12:07 pm

author: chscholz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2010, 11:54:12 pm
content: Hi Janne,it looks like we have been listening to you.Recent LeCroy mid-range scopes (WavePro, 1.5GHz to 6 GHz) and high-bandwidth scopes (WaveMaster 4 GHz to 45 GHz) have both High-Impedance inputs (up to 500 MHz) and high-speed 50 Ohms inputs. For scopes below 3.5 GHz the inputs are switchable form high impedance to 50 Ohm coupled, for scopes above 3.5 GHz you get two rows of inputs.ChrisQuote from: jahonen on October 27, 2010, 06:38:39 pm

author: chscholz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2010, 12:09:18 am
content: I have the pleasure to work with quite a few sales engineers. Some are outstanding engineers with amazing technical skills and broad design experience. Others are more relationship persons; both approaches have their merits and of course there is a lot in-between.I'd be very cautious in extrapolating how the overall sales is run based on experience with a regional sales person.ChrisQuote from: cybergibbons on October 27, 2010, 05:46:17 pm

author: chscholz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2010, 12:16:11 am
content: Care to share with me offline what went wrong?In my very biased opinion it sounds like a LeCroy WaveRunner with an MS-250 would meet all the requirements you describe and then some, without the issues you describe below.I also want to point out that a Mixed Signals Oscilloscope does not replace a logic analyzer. You can do many things that a logic analyzer can do on an MSO (and a few more such as cross triggering on analog and digital channels), but for many tasks a MSO can not replace a logic analyzer.ChrisQuote from: M.Hassem on October 27, 2010, 07:12:07 pm

author: M.Hassem
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 28, 2010, 01:24:59 am
content: Well, time to finish the saga that will end up in a review:Let's pick it up from where we finished last time: NONE of the scopes I've used were as good as I've expected. I raised the bar and the options were available. The new specs were:* 1GHz with 10Gs/s* the rest is pretty much the same* good user interfaceI've had 3 scopes to consider:* R&S RTO* Agilent9000* The new tek product (We would be one of the first buyers and get the product as soon as it was released).Well, from these 3, the Tek was discarded because I would have to buy without seeing a damn thing until Q1 2011, which would delay the process to much. At this time I've heard of LeCroy, and drooled at the scopes. Unfortunately LeCroy's representation in Brazil is not as good as the other competitors, and to the company this is a MUST HAVE that is not quite technical. When the thing breaks (if it breaks) we cannot afford to lose time sending the thing outside Brazil. LeCroy does not have a repair lab here, so, if any repairs should be made on the unit, it would be in an authorized service provider or at the factory. That bothers me and I don't trust this scheme. I like all the repairs to be made by the manufacturer in inhouse facilities and all the others meet that criteria (or stated they meet).Well, it was pretty much down to the Agilent and R&S. Having used both, some things must be considered:1) The R&S touchscreen is just a gimmick. The operation is no easier and you WILL want to use a mouse or the panel, and these both work quite well.2) The R&S feeels more like a modern well thought product than ANY OF THE scopes I've ever seen, except the highest end LeCroys. It seems like the design team for R&S had to step down on geekyness to produce a scope. When you turn on the FFT it feels like a spectrum analyzer, and all the parameters are spectrum analyzer like. With persistence turned on and the color turned on, you can see a clear shot of how frequencies navigate through your analog channel. Quite impressive!3) The Agilent has this great feature called drag n drop measurements. It's awesome, you select Rise Time, for instance, and drag it into a pulse. It will automatically know where the rise is and put the cursors to measure it for you. Brilliant!4) Agilent has so many probing options it confuses me. They're great probes, you can even probe DDR3 BGAs with Agilent's options. It was really one of the things I've liked about their line of products. Almost none of regular active probes come close to the R&S Probemeter. It's incredible, you can hook it to almost anything, really! And every probe has a separate multimeter which you can use apart from the scope measurements.5) Again, the build quality. The RTO feels very robust, like a military grade product, build like a tank, but very sofisticated. The agilent feels as chinese as the MSO7000 series. It won't fall apart, but you know it's not a machine to survive the decades.6) The agilent screen obliterates the R&S's. I don't understand why the R&S does not have a super large screen. I does have a DVI output though, so you can hook it to pretty much every good large LCD.Performance wise they were almost identical in debugging capabilities. The Agilent has a LOT of optional extras, but they were all expensive and not included. They were quite odd actually, because I clearly stated the price range and the frequency specs and they offered my at first a 600MHz product with almost no optional extras. My guess is that they didn't think I was seriously considering buying that scope, so they did not take me seriously.R&S gave me almost every single extra available, including a beter frequency reference for the scope which increases the time base precision from 2.5ppm (inacceptable) to 0.02ppm (beats almost every scope out there). The probes were included, the logic analyzer specs (which I can't share) are above almost anything I've ever seen on this price range and on top of that they gave me a discount (100% actually, lol) in rental of RF Generators for Digital TV, so if I have to do a quick test, I just have to ask them and they will lend me the 60 thousand dollar generator.Well, after several meetings I've decided the R&S product was better and the conditions were better too. So I've chosen the R&S RTO1012. After I did that and payed them (we're currently waiting on delivery), two very annoying things happened:* Agilent representatives became quite aggressive and started asking me the reason I bought the R&S. They just would not get it. I've supplied them that XLS file I've showed you, and gave them all my reasons. They would not back off. After a million phone calls to my desk, they've offered me a fully configured Agilent 9104 1GHz scope with all the optional extras for half the price (which would be 17,000 dollars). I've said: "Ok, I will accept that, can you turn back time like 5 days? Cause I've already payed Rohde & Schwarz". Well, they better start with a good deal next time. I'm 25 and look like a baby boy, but I'm no sweetheart.* Tektronix offered me their new product as a Demo, which could happen this year. I was really excited but the price was totally and utterly out of range with the specs I wanted. From the specs (which I absolutely CAN NOT give) It's going to bomb the marked with awesomeness.Well guys, hope you enjoyed the story. If you have any questions or if you want to flame me for anything, feel free to do it. Expect for a VERY THOROUGH review. I might even take it apart (I have to, to install the MSO when it gets here! I was authorized by R&S to do it yay!)

author: slburris
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2010, 04:14:29 am
content: Quote from: saturation on October 27, 2010, 11:05:38 amI built it when I was a teenager. It's in good shape, except for that scratch on the front panel, butI haven't powered it up in years. It was nearly impossible to get the graticule aligned with the scope,because you aligned it with the cover off, and the act of putting the scope back together tweaked thealignment. Back in those days my soldering skills weren't the best, but it did work.We should have a "post your Heathkits thread". Maybe I'll go start one.Scott

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2010, 01:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: slburris on October 28, 2010, 04:14:29 amyea! you should teach us how to build the analog frontend, for free

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2010, 08:06:55 pm
content: too bad you did not test the LeCroy range.I like the math on the Waverunner. You can link math functions so you can send the input signal true a filter and than filter that signal again or put it in a fft. You can link 4 levels deep.It also works on the already sampled signals. You do not have to sample the signal again.The Wave inspector is also a handy feature for finding an artifact in a clock signal quickly in a few meg of samples.Can the RS do the same?Does it switch the sample rate down when the timebase is slowed down? I like a Peak detect function that have the ADC's running at full speed and display the min and max value in one line of the screen so you do not miss a spike in the signal.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2010, 06:57:55 pm
content: a very good story, Hassem, particularly the new pricing offer by Agilent. Either that's their margin or they really wanted your business.Sales of this sort do not get made everyday, so I'm surprised they didn't give you a counteroffer before you paid for the R&S. It reads like you gear budget is at the same price of a BMW car, and if you can pay that for a scope, your lab is doing work that reads like a market for a lot of more high end stuff.Quote from: M.Hassem on October 28, 2010, 01:24:59 am

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2010, 07:01:01 pm
content: I couldnt' afford that then, so I got a Kenwood preassembled, back in the 1980s. Alas, if you don't power it up now and then, the electrolytics can dry up, and when you do, it'll work for a bit then fizzle. I was able to use my scope up to 5 years ago, just to peek at output waveforms, it was 20 years old then. 5 years of dormancy, I powered it up 9 months ago and it just went blank. I could repair it or say, good time to get a Rigol 1052E.Quote from: slburris on October 28, 2010, 04:14:29 am

author: tcampbell
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 04, 2013, 06:05:55 pm
content: I know the thread is old, but I'm interested to know how the R&S scope has worked out. Have you had any problems with it or any regrets?Thanks for the review.

author: minsik
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2021, 03:10:51 am
content: R&S RTO1012 or RTO1000 series models, has anyone done the windows 7 upgrade to use the latest firmware and has anyone done a SSD conversion yet?Amazing bit if kit.

author: TRN
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 02:41:59 pm
content: Have a look at the following post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rto1024-upgrade/?all