EE shows that a Smart Gun isn't very Smart - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 07:36:33 pm
content: Pretty much a case study in how not to do RFID security ....

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 07:55:45 pm
content: It still provides some level of protection. Anyone can pull a trigger, but not everyone can defeat the security efforts on this pistol.Shortly after high-school - a few of kids I knew went down a dark path and got involved in gangs. The MO was to find gun owners and rob them for the guns. About a year after high-school, they murdered one of my friends with stolen weapons. These were not particularly smart people - if they ended up with a pistol that would not shoot or you had to use a magnet to fire it, they would not have bothered to figure it out. If most weapons had electronic locks, it would at least deter and slow things down.It could provide a little help, but obviously only a little baby step.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 08:03:06 pm
content: Why does it feel like I've already seen the picture of that lab on this here forum before?

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 08:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on July 26, 2017, 08:03:06 pmApologies if so - I did do a search but my google-fu may have been weak.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 09:43:33 pm
content: The rest of the world (ROW) looks at the US and wonders about your firearms-mania. Not even in Medellin are so many guns per capita around.Must be sexual/anal, I guess... (the repressed kind).

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 09:47:00 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on July 26, 2017, 09:43:33 pmThe rest of the world looks at the media coming out of this country to base their opinions on our possession of guns. Don't do that.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 09:59:22 pm
content: No, the rest of the world does not need US media. The official statistics are sufficient.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 10:03:25 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 26, 2017, 09:47:00 pmThe media has opinions about it, but the stats are clear. The number of guns per capita is extremely high. It is up to the audience to decide if that is a good, bad or neutral thing. You cannot declare the statistics about the numbers of guns is wrong because it was broadcast on a media outlet you don't like.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 10:22:35 pm
content: It's the old safety vs reliability issue. It's hard to improve one aspect without harming the other.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 11:31:07 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on July 26, 2017, 09:43:33 pmThis Wiki lists the guns per capita in the US as 1.13 or just a little over 1 per capita. That's the number I have always been told - about 300 million guns in the US.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_countryI have also been told that there are about 100 million gun owners in the US. So, about 3 guns per gun owner. Some will have a LOT more, others only one.But hunting and shooting are sports in the US. Of course there are a lot of folks involved.300 million guns, so?

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 11:33:50 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 26, 2017, 10:03:25 pmThat's not what I meant. If you take the hype surrounding the media stories, you would get a very unrealistic view of American gun owners/ownership. The fact that the quantity of stories coming from the media concerning guns is at a manageable level speaks greater than the hype contained within; If this was as bad as the media lets on, then the number of reports would be greater. Most people outside the U.S. have never been here, or been here long enough to have a first hand opinion on this issue, so they are letting their opinions be dictated by media stories that are largely overblown, over-reported and very much biased against guns. Their perception is wrong based on highly biased information that seems to align with the political structures in their own countries.Quote from: rstofer on July 26, 2017, 11:31:07 pmSo try to invade!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 11:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 26, 2017, 11:33:50 pmThere is a quote, potentially misattributed, by Isoroku Yamamoto (Commander and Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy)QuoteFor a discussion of the quote, see about half way down:https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 01:57:20 am
content: Quote from: Benta on July 26, 2017, 09:43:33 pmI am a strong proponent of ownership of weapons for self defense. There is a lot more I could say on the subject by way of rational discussion, but I will stop there. I have seen Dave ask multiple times on this forum that we do not discuss politics or the political aspect of firearms.Besides the above statement being immensely immature, is it not also immature to post on a subject where the forum rules prohibit engagement on your statement? People may have different, legitimate points of view, but if they respect the forum rules, they are unable to reply to you, so you are just taking pot shots. No pun intended.Perhaps you could stick to discussing the technological aspect of the video, or instead discuss the "sexual/anal repression" of people who own too many oscilloscope probes.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 02:28:28 am
content: Quote from: Elf on July 27, 2017, 01:57:20 amAnd knowing that you just HAD to bring it up?Any gun debate ends now.Continue to talk technical of course, but the first one to talk gun politics gets this thread shut down.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 03:08:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2017, 02:28:28 amDave, with all respect, with your stance against politics and against any gun debate, why was the sexual insult about gun owners allowed to remain?"Why do anti gun people feel the need for personal insults? Debate the facts (well, not here, as you have said not to, but elsewhere) but geez, the credibility of the anti gun people takes a nose dive when they insist on insulting the sexuality of gun owners.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 03:33:36 am
content: I wasn't aware of that rule and I find it odd, but it's not my board. I'll drop it.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 03:47:01 am
content: Back to the technical aspects...Interesting video. I was surprised about the use of the magnets to simply over-ride the electromagnetic locking mechanism. I would have expected them to use a servo motor to lock/unlock the gun, not an electromagnetically actuated pin. The use of a motor and gears would have been more difficult to override with a magnet due to the more complex rotational mechanism, instead of a simple sliding mechanism.The gun seems to be built to disassemble and reassemble fairly reasonably, to allow cleaning I presume. That means if someone steals one of these guns they can study the inside and jam it in such a way to allow it to fire even without any batteries or electronics being needed. Essentially just bypass the entire electronics and just rig up the mechanism to always work.As far as the RFID signal, there are some potential issues here with the RFID as well. In case of an emergency, if you don't have your watch on, or the batteries are going, or if you are being frequency jammed, you won't be able to fire the gun. So is the case of this "smart gun" really just a way to add safety to prevent kids from accidentally firing it at home in case it is not stored in a safe? Is it in case you are carrying the gun and somebody tries to steal it off you and use it against you, they will not be able to fire it? If they realize this they may still try to get your watch but now you are fighting hand to hand as you don't have use of your gun either.Of course, with so many "dumb guns" around that cost considerably less, and responsible gun owners who are of the belief that the existing methods of securing gun ownership supposedly work, I wonder how many people will even adopt these devices? We also may want to think about the consequences of relying on the gun's "smartness" to provide safety rather than instilling a bit of fear in owners so that they will know how to properly carry, load, aim and store these deadly weapons. Too much "smart" in the device may make people allow their guard to be down by relying too much on it for safety and then mistakes will happen.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 03:52:50 am
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on July 27, 2017, 03:08:03 amIt might surprise many to learn that I don't read every post on this forum.Moderation on this forum generally work on a report basis.QuoteIt was no such thing, there was no sexism here, you are interpreting the comment incorrectly.But I will not enter into debate on that either.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 03:58:29 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 27, 2017, 03:33:36 amMany niche forums like this one have been ruined by uncontrolled discussion on three main topics: Politics, Religion, and Guns.They have to remain off this forum for the good of and long term success of the forum.Those who have never run a forum might find it hard to understand, and it's taken me a long time to accept it myself, but accept it I must.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 04:00:13 am
content: Quote from: edy on July 27, 2017, 03:47:01 amI was stunned by that too. This is a well known issue in cheap-arse security safes you buy at the hardware store, you can open them with a big enough magnet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 04:03:48 am
content: Quote from: edy on July 27, 2017, 03:47:01 amThat might be an unwinnable dilemma?QuoteSeems like a classic case of technology for the sake of it, the Juicero of guns perhaps?I think it's destined to be a failed concept.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 04:03:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2017, 03:58:29 amI've never run a forum, but I am members of several across many different subjects and the religion and politics rule is pretty much standard, the gun rule not so much. One forum even went so far as to create an entirely new site with its own forum just for the discussion of religion and politics. The thinking was that people wanted to discuss it, so why not off load it from the original site? Surely it would cease to be an issue on the main site? Right?! Nope. It lasted about a year and they shut it down. The animosity and grudges boiled over to the main site.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 04:05:12 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 27, 2017, 04:03:54 amBingo.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 04:22:35 am
content: My Gossen meter is effected by magnets too. Was the gun designed in Germany?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 07:22:40 am
content: Quote from: edy on July 27, 2017, 03:47:01 amA gun is a very simple mechanism and one that's well known, anyone with some fairly rudimentary hand tools and the ability to use them could permanently bypass this lock quickly.The *only* thing it's useful for is in stopping someone shooting you with it after taking your gun out of your hands or stopping your kids doing the same when you've been stupid enough to leave it in their reach.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 08:42:41 am
content: Quote from: CJay on July 27, 2017, 07:22:40 amIt doesn't matter. Here is a sniper computerized rifle $13k hacked.https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-can-disable-sniper-rifleor-change-target/After a couple of years looking at hacks I can easily say that whatever man thought up off, can be hacked by man. It might take enormous effort, time and equipment but it can be done. The only thing to do is make it so difficult that only a government agency with its resources can do it in the end

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 09:26:28 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 27, 2017, 08:42:41 am

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 09:34:44 am
content: Ah ok that is a good point the same that doorlocks will never be burglarproof.Indeed a gun is than a pretty simple device.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 10:02:19 am
content: Quote from: CJay on July 27, 2017, 07:22:40 amWithout getting into the gun debate, if a gun is for self defense then anything that potentially gets in the way of the reliability and simplicity of that task is not only pointless, but entirely detrimental to operation and almost certainly the commercial desirability of the product.If the batteries in the gun or watch don't work, if the electronics fail etc, it's uselessWhy would anyone buy this?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 10:08:45 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 27, 2017, 09:34:44 amSome locks have not been picked externally. e.g the Abloy PL362Good and careful engineering can ensure that.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 11:39:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2017, 03:52:50 amI reported the post. It looked like a sexual (not sexist) insult. If the moderator(s) feel it is OK I'll drop it, but accusing gun owners of having repressed anal sexual problems seems like something you wouldn't allow per your warning.

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 11:49:16 am
content: Perhaps Benta could help clear up the ' confusion ' by explaning the intent of his comment.edit :There was no real need for an explanation of course, Benta knew full well what he said.Of course I'll move on now.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 12:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2017, 10:02:19 amAbsolutely, the old saying about how any fool can make something more complex applies here too, unfortunately the reasons for it being made more complex are hugely emotive and political so best avoided here (a decision I again wholeheartedly agree with)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 01:16:41 pm
content: Quote from: lowimpedance on July 27, 2017, 11:49:16 amNo, it's a storm in a teacup. Move along now.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 03:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: edy on July 27, 2017, 03:47:01 amThe additional safety claims are easy to evaluate. In the US states which have passed smart gun mandates, police officers who would benefit from not having their own firearm used against them are exempted. They are also exempted from the limited rosters of firearms which have been approved in part based on arguably useless safety features.I am knowledgeable about firearm mechanics and electronics and in the past, took a careful look at possible "smart gun" designs. They all decrease reliability of the firearm itself by orders of magnitude. (Firearms are necessarily very reliable and this is of prime importance in their design.) There are one or more authentication devices, one or more power sources, the authentication channel, extra complexity added to the firearm itself, etc. Even the various attempts to implement electronic priming have had reliability problems like shock damage to the electronics, dead batteries, leaving the key at home, etc.The best safety improvements can be made by training good habits (treat fireams as loaded, keep finger off trigger, safe direction, etc.) so they become second nature including training children. The user is the primary safety.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 03:40:40 pm
content: David - I will agree with that.Adding complex electronics, RF, and a lockout mechanism is a considerable hit to reliability. Gun design has been tweaked specifically to be reliably over a very long period of time. If carried as a means of self-defense - what is more important than reliability?

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 03:59:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2017, 10:02:19 amBecause "safety" and because laws are being put in place mandating smart guns.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 05:40:37 pm
content: Perhaps next we should start looking at how to design "smart bullets". All joking aside, there could be something to this and potentially open up another whole industry and patent storm of innovation. Whether it can be marketed or not is another story. Thoughts?

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 06:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2017, 04:03:48 amIndeed. Imagine a scenario where a reasonably tech savvy criminal gang gets into a shootout with law enforcement and unleashes their high power RFID jammer, rendering all the LE weapons impotent.Though in the current environment such an occurrence would probably prompt calls for shuttering Digikey and Mouser.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 09:43:32 pm
content: Quote from: edy on July 27, 2017, 05:40:37 pmYes the same as with fireworks/pyro detonators they have a unique serial nr and a computer send the "detonate" sequence over a serial line. Bullets have detonation caps that are mechanically ignited, this could well be replaced by a small electronic detonation device which could even make it more reliable.The con is that the gun needs a battery or get the energy from the trigger action.

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 12:52:22 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 27, 2017, 09:43:32 pmI think the added complexity can never improve reliability. I think I'm in the camp of preferring less guns than more, and even I think complex firing lock/controls like this only result in a less predicable and less reliable firearm. Dangerous things aren't the things that can kill you, they are the things that can unpredictably kill you.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 02:20:45 pm
content: Electrically fired handgun patented:https://www.google.com/patents/US5625972Even earlier:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_P11A Remington attempt to use electrically fired ammo in a Model 700 rifle:https://www.forgottenweapons.com/remington-etronx-electrically-primed-ammunition-video/Besides zero lock time (time between the sear releasing the firing pin and detonation of the primer), the trigger wouldn't be a mechanical thing with a distinct 'break'. The trigger switch could be a pressure sensitive device that didn't move at all.The electrically fired primers are still available:https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013085284/remington-etronx-electronic-primers-box-of-1000-10-trays-of-100They are approximately 5x as expensive as similar primers:https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601171305/remington-large-rifle-primers-9-1-2I seem to recall reading some place where Olympic handguns used electrical firing.If they ever invent a biometric handgun, it will be the only available technology in California. All new firearms will have to incorporate it thus reducing to zero the number of approved firearms that could be imported. It came close a few years ago but the inventor/manufacturer withdrew the product.The idea of "owner-authorized" handguns is described in Assembly Bill AB 2235 (2008). I doubt that RFID would check all the boxes because the watch and gun can be stolen together.ftp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_2201-2250/ab_2235_cfa_20080414_093837_asm_comm.htmlFortunately, this hasn't come to pass - yet!Believe me, nobody on eevBlog is going to invent something in the firearms world that hasn't already been done. The question is: Will anybody buy the invention. In most cases, no. Simple is better. One of today's most popular handguns was invented in 1911 and is still preferred by many. Once you achieve perfection, no further development is necessary.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistolThe Army gave me my very first 1911. Then they took it back!

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 03:56:34 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 27, 2017, 09:43:32 pmIt would be very expensive than the classic fulminates.Now i am waiting that someone invent a smart knife, it will knows when it have to cut. Avoiding aggressions and accidents .

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 04:42:53 pm
content: Quote from: vodka on July 28, 2017, 03:56:34 pmIn sporting ammunition, we haven't used fulminates in a very long time. The primary ingredient today is lead styphnate. Attempts at lead free primers haven't been well received.Fromhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition:Quotehttp://www.sfm.state.or.us/CR2K_SubDB/MSDS/SMOKELESS_PRIMERS.PDFAccuracy for lead free primers has been proven, by the DoD, to be significantly less than conventional primers. Since accuracy is everything, don't expect lead free primers to be used any time soon. See the wiki above.