The beginning of the end? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 09:45:29 am
content: https://rpilocator.comnow has enough entries on it that it is using more than one page.Is this the beginning of the end for the dark times of no silicon?

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 05:06:26 pm
content: A lot of the prices look tripled since before the chip crisis, but good to see they are coming back in to stock now.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 08:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on July 15, 2023, 05:06:26 pmYes, then again that's also the case for many products other than chips.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 10:38:47 pm
content: That's an interesting site. I passed on CM4 for a design due to the unobtanium last year.Looking at the listing of model numbers and configurations just for the CM4.... WTF were the Raspberry Pi guys thinking having that many models which are essentially the same product at essentially the same price? 1M, no Wifi, no MMC..... 4M, No wifi, no MMC... 4M no wifi, MMC... .......Having that many build configurations of essentially the same product must be an absolute nightmare. And it had to contribute to the shortages somewhat. It's not like they are saving so much on component costs between the models that it makes sense to OMIT parts. That just seems crazy.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 10:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 15, 2023, 10:38:47 pmReally? The rPi people make some of the most affordable single board computers and they work well. I like the fact that you are telling them how to sell computers.Do you tell the Taiwanese how to make semiconductors?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 11:31:07 pm
content: Supply chain has caught up with demand, that's all. Some would read that as demand falling, but you had increased demand during COVID for a lot of electronics and a supply chain disrupted by COVID. Since RasPi's are used in a lot of industrial kit (for reasons that escape me) supply was being grabbed by companies desperate for them to make product. It's all reaching some kind of equilibrium now.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 11:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 15, 2023, 10:57:36 pmI've been involved with trying to manufacturer and support many slight variants of the same base product. First hand experience that it's a cluster. They can do whatever they want, but if the idea is you save $3.00 in parts by not putting the MMC on there, you have to do the math of how much that costs on the back end to stock and support everything now. (it adds more than $0.00)The "work well" part...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/fine-pitch-high-speed-connector-alignment-issues-(ex-rpi-cm4-headers)/

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 11:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 15, 2023, 11:31:07 pmSome things about this, having been exposed to this world somewhat... :1) They are actually pretty capable for graphics applications (it was supposed to be a media center processor after all), especially for the price and design complexity of the embedded alternatives. It's hard to suggest an i.MX on a custom board when CM4 does more stuff at $35 off the shelf price point.2) It's seen as the "professional arduino" for non electrical engineers.3) Everyday programmers get to program in linux, and not some embedded IDE and proprietary HAL.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 12:47:31 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 15, 2023, 11:52:15 pmI know nothing of your experiences. I do know that selling hundreds of thousands or even millions each, of different models will be worth the effort. Hell, I'm happy selling tens of thousands, very, very happy. If they sell the product with all the parts on it, there is virtually zero cost to selling versions with fewer parts. Meanwhile, saving $3.00 in cost on a $25 product is huge.The simple facts are, that they are making it work, and you are not. What are you complaining about, exactly?

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 01:45:39 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 15, 2023, 10:38:47 pmIt's not just parts cost. A lot of industrial applications will have a "no wifi" requirement. You can remove the antenna and disable the kernel module but its often preferable to just get a non wifi unit. But a lot of applications really want wifi and having it as an option that has the needed approvals is helpful for those. I think eMMC affects the availability of SD card pins on the b2b connector, and maybe the boot options? There are reasons why you might want or not want mmc.It did seem like there were a lot of RAM configurations, and there is no real reason other than cost why someone might want the 4G instead of 8G. But it wasn't a trivial cost difference in volume.There is also the flip side to your cost argument: if shaving $2 off the BOM gives you and option for a $5 upcharge you can increase revenue from some industrial customers while keeping cheaper parts for hobby and education customers.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:18:58 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on July 16, 2023, 01:45:39 amHave a zero ohm resistor on the board to enable the Wifi, if it is not desired, break it off and it will be disabled at the hardware level.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 04:17:58 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 16, 2023, 02:18:58 amYeah, everyone wants to use pliers to effect user selected options.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 06:34:55 am
content: I believe it when they are plenty available here for "reasonable" prices:https://uk.farnell.com/raspberry-pi/rpi4-modbp-4gb/raspberry-pi-4-model-b-4gb/dp/3051887

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 07:56:16 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on July 15, 2023, 05:06:26 pmI have found myself PIC hopping to keep making things during the shortage.Its a real pain to have half a dozen different versions of a program to work with different PIC's.If I make a change I have to do it to all 6 projects !

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 01:38:08 pm
content: It is a shame that something created to help the younger generation learn about coding etc has been taken over by businesses that use them for their systems so when there were limits on parts the priority went to the business users. It is going to take some time before the prices drop as there are a whole bunch of amateurs that have projects waiting for these things and that is creating a significant demand.Regards to models with this and without that. If you make a million products and you can save £1 in parts then that is a saving. I also suspect that a fair bit of the special limited ones are targeted at business use as they will notice the savings but also they may have security reasons for not wanting one with WiFi even if it is disabled.I am just going to wait for now as my projects are not likely to get much attention until winter.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on July 16, 2023, 01:38:08 pmI'd be interested to know how one would attack a system through Wifi if the Wifi chip is disabled at the hardware level.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 02:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 16, 2023, 02:19:32 pmThat's not how security audits work. It's (mostly) not about whether you can attack it with the wifi chip disabled, it's about how can you assure that the wifi chip is disabled reliably and universally. How do you make sure that it isn't enabled deliberately or accidentally for instance during a software upgrade, or malware. You might say that if there is malware it's game over, but a device with only wired ethernet can be restricted by the network configuration and firewall to limit it's damage. A wifi device can potentially attack other wifi enabled devices, or exfiltrate data bypassing the firewall. And it's not about running a home network, it's about a company building this into a product that is going to be sold to customers and subject to a security analysis. If you can say "our product doesn't have a wifi chip or antenna" you just cross a bunch of things off the list. That doesn't mean you can't ship a device with wifi and a procedure to turn it off, but it can be a substantial advantage to avoid it if it isn't needed.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 09:00:25 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 16, 2023, 12:47:31 amI'm not complaining about anything. I'm making a point about having a base product and manufacturing a lot of slight variants and the problems that path can bring with it. You can say they "make it work" but they had parts shortages, so in a real way they didn't make it work. Each one of those variants needs different parts. That's more parts to stock (or be out of stock of). They needed to stock 4 different RAM chips, and 3 different MMC chips. Just the RAM and MMC makes 12 build variants with 7 different components right there. Anyone that has ever done purchasing knows buying and strategically stocking 2 critical parts is significantly easier than buying and stocking 7 critical parts.Lets say the "No WIFI" and "No MMC" options are required for all the reasons you guys gave above. I don't have a problem with any of that. Based on the fact that people would still pay outrageous crazy inflated prices for these boards during the shortages means they could have easily had 1 option for RAM and 1 option for MMC (just using the biggest sizes for everything) and in a real way would have actually lowered their purchasing, production, and support costs by not having to deal with all those variants and critical components.I would love to put some actual numbers to this stuff, but CM4 prices are all over the place right now and it looks like the RAM and MMC they used are still largely out of stock at distribution so their prices are all jacked up too.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 09:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on July 16, 2023, 01:38:08 pmAgreed, especially considering the RPi fundation is a fundation, non-profit org with specific goals which are definitely not helping commercial companies make a profit.I don't know how they even get away with it, but that's complex legal shit.Some will just tell you that the fundation needs to make enough revenue to keep operating and thus fullfilling its goals, and if that means selling most of their products to commercial companies, so be it.Thing is, the decision is probably not just linked to the direct revenue they make by selling their products to commercial companies, but also by just keeping some of said companies happy, so they'll keep donating large amounts of money.All large fundations have "nasty" links to for-profit businesses.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 10:17:33 pm
content: The problem is companies are lazy and short-term cheap. We had to pay a contractor to develop a Linux kernel for an embedded board (at the time no one at the company knew how to do it.) It cost a lot but allowed us to use a cheaper SoC.$30-50 per unit is expensive but if you think low volumes then it could be cheaper in the shorter term to buy the RPi with the prebuilt kernel and world of applications. But once you get above about 100 units/month, or unless you have a REALLY good reason to use the RPi*, it's time to move on from it.*Like camera/HDMI is essential. Not just as a Wi-Fi network point. You can do that with ESP2866, but some people haven't figured that out yet somehow.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2023, 11:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on July 16, 2023, 02:49:56 pmA zero ohm resistor disconnecting power to the Wifi chip cannot be bypassed by software.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 12:47:19 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 16, 2023, 11:03:26 pmI ran into this once. We had an ethernet port on a product but one customer could not have any connection to "a network". They were fine with an RS232 serial port, but not the ethernet. Luckily it was optional and they were happy with the solution of not installing the RJ45 connector on those boards.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 05:55:06 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 16, 2023, 09:00:25 pmActually, you are complaining about multiple product variations. I just don't see your point supported in a useful way.QuoteYou have stated this, but it clearly does not apply when the product volume is sufficiently high enough. The production of rPi devices is definitely large enough that it causes no problem.QuoteSorry, that makes no sense. If they made one product, it would be a full up product with every option populated. That would be the most subject to shortages of any model and they would not be able to ship diddly.QuotePoorly stated. Each variation required a subset of the parts used on the full up version of the board.QuoteNo, it's the same set of parts they would stock for the full up board, but some boards can still be made when they are out of some parts.QuoteMaybe I'm not up to speed on this. I thought we were talking about functions that were either on the board, or left off, like wifi.QuoteDo they sell all these versions? Even if they do, I fail to see the problem. If you can't buy the parts, you can't build that variation. You can still build the variation that you can buy the parts for. Where is the problem?Quote"Deal with"I like that you turn them into something "difficult" by simply labeling them as "critical" components.QuoteOk

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 07:14:19 am
content: Maybe you didn't realize I'm talking about CM4 here.https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/cm4/cm4-datasheet.pdfCheck out page 31, Appendix B for all the model numbers of all the variants.There are 1GB, 2GB, 4GB, and 8GB RAM and 8GB, 16GB, and 32GB MMC. They make all combinations as variants of products (along with WIFI/No-WIFI causing even more variants). I'm not sure what you didn't understand about each variant needing different parts. I mean I guess they could sell the 1GB RAM version with the 8GB Chip installed but I don't think that's what you were talking about.I said those parts are "critical" because they are presumably single sourced (at least I didn't see anyone mention alternate parts anywhere), so if you can't get that specific part you can't make that variant of your product (or any other variant that also uses that part). The way you handle that is get some visibility on sales and then do strategic ordering and stocking. Blanket orders and extra stock on hand and that sort of thing. The fewer critical components that you need to do that with, the better. I don't thing this is that controversial.I didn't realize that appendix had the original price list on it. That's a strange place to put a price list. Ok. I didn't realize they were charging $95 for the fully specced out WIFI, 8GB Ram, 32GB MMC version (compared to $40 for the WIFI, 1GB RAM, 8GB MMC). If there is really that much extra cost in it, and that $95 isn't just the $40 base price and $55 in profit, I take back the idea that they should only make the highest spec one.Anyone know what the actual component costs are for those parts in quantity? Google didn't know about any costed BOMs. Would be interesting to see profit margin per model.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 07:29:24 am
content: l'm talking about the fact that you are making much ado about nothing. If they make one version of the board and a part required is unavailable, so they can't ship, they ship NOTHING! Having options allows them to ship something as long as one or more of the components are available. I think I know which I prefer. In fact, I spend a lot of my design time locating multiple sources to prevent not being able to ship product.I don't know what trauma you have personally experienced, but your objections make no sense to me.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 11:46:59 am
content: Thou Shalt Not Criticize the Raspberry Pi Foundation, the PR Division of Broadcom (with the Assistance of University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory), or gnuarm Will Be Very Unhappy.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 11:49:39 am
content: Also, discussion = complaining.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 11:54:13 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 16, 2023, 09:04:18 pmThat's the "insiders standing joke" i heard.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 12:04:24 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 17, 2023, 11:46:59 amDon't forget the Welsh, for if it wasnt for thier efforts these things would be made in a China. Soon they will insist on renaming them MafonPi.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 10:11:27 pm
content: Don't complain too much, the RPi could be mainly financed by MS and the RPi boards would come preinstalled with Windows and no right to distribute them with any other OS.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2023, 06:13:13 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 17, 2023, 10:11:27 pmAnd with UEFI, TPM 2.0 and secure boot always enabled...

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2023, 09:09:31 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on July 18, 2023, 06:13:13 amYou guys are joking, but there are a lot of things locked down with the RPi being a broadcom based thing and all the issues with getting full datasheets and drivers for all the subsystems like video.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 06:21:43 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 18, 2023, 09:09:31 pmYes and actual fucking DRM as used in the camera module for example, to slow people down from interfacing their own camera designs, or doing anything custom really. Raspberry Pi Foundation is pretty much a perfect example of anti-openness.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 12:02:10 pm
content: Finally!https://uk.farnell.com/raspberry-pi/rpi4-modbp-4gb/raspberry-pi-4-model-b-4gb/dp/3051887

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 11:00:25 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on October 18, 2023, 12:02:10 pmJust when the Pi5 is announced. Who would have thought.

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 09:04:33 am
content: Yeah, don't think I'd be stocking 10,000 of them with the PI5 around the corner, but I guess there are businesses that have the PI4 designed in and don't want to change (or can't because of the connector layout change).That Farnell price excludes VAT so its really GBP53.23 in the UK.Edit to say: Only 6 pounds more for the PI5.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 09:45:44 pm
content: Quote from: woofy on October 20, 2023, 09:04:33 amIt's not just the layout, I imagine there will be software changes to use the new connector, also drivers might be out of date and need changes to them for the product to work.That said, I've pre-ordered one to get started on that side of things.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 11:31:41 pm
content: They still sell Pi3B's. I expect Pi4's will be on the market for years to to come yet.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 12:25:18 am
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on October 20, 2023, 11:31:41 pmThe CM4 datasheet has a production lifetime statement:https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/cm4/cm4-product-brief.pdfQuoteI wonder if that is true for all 47200 variantsAs long as they make one variant, they aren't technically wrong.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2024, 11:40:48 am
content: Finally, the scarcity has ended!https://uk.farnell.com/raspberry-pi/rpi5-4gb-single/raspberry-pi-5-model-b-4gb-2-4ghz/dp/4255998

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2024, 01:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on January 26, 2024, 11:40:48 amYeah, I've been seeing them in stock for awhile now. I had been signed up for stock notifications for awhile now, and have been getting notification emails pretty regularly. I broke down a few weeks ago and ordered a Pi 5 from Pishop. Don't really have anything in mind for it yet, so it sits in the drawer with some other brand-new, unused SBCs and dev boards including Pi 4's and Zero W2's that I've been snatching here and there as they come available. Better to get them before you need them, than to need them and can't get them.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2024, 09:30:51 pm
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on January 26, 2024, 01:34:44 pmAh, that's why they are so scarce)

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2024, 10:17:55 pm
content: Quote from: exe on January 26, 2024, 09:30:51 pmLOL just call me scalper!Seriously though, in case anyone thinks different, I’m only buying one here and there to save for a rainy day. Not buying them to stock up and profit on them. Right now in the drawer I have new in box:1x Pi4 2GB1x Pi5 4GB1x Pi Zero W 23x RP20401x Arduino Uno R4 WiFiBunch of Arduino Pro Minis and Nanos2x Black PillsSo I don’t think I’ve removed too many from the market.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2024, 10:55:05 pm
content: I want a Pi6 with 256GB of RAM.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2024, 11:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 26, 2024, 10:55:05 pmThose are still scarce I'm afraid...

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2024, 02:20:02 am
content: A Quantum Pi.Liquid Helium coolant is extra.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2024, 09:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 21, 2023, 12:25:18 amI did hear recently that the CM5 (when it comes out) should be compatible with boards for the CM4. Obviously, pinch of salt and all that.