Is it my fault or is JLCPCB overly pedantic when they say these are two designs? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Blitzschnitzel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:04:53 pm
content: Hi,Yesterday I’ve uploaded this design to JLCPCB with a 13 x 13mm breakout at the top right:Now they wrote that I have to pay extra because these are two different designs. Technically maybe … but I mean it is tiny and doesn’t add to the overall dimensions of the PCB at all. If there were some random slot cuts in the middle of the PCB instead it wouldn't cost extra. So, why do they even care?Or, was that perhaps the result of an automated review and I can still convince a human to let this slide?

author: spongle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:13:03 pm
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:26:39 pm
content: No the problem is you added slots and row of vias which make the board mechanically difficult to handle. One option is to remove the slots and cut apart the boards yourself.

author: Blitzschnitzel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on October 04, 2019, 05:26:39 pmOK, thanks for the explenation. Yeah, not having to cut that by hand I would happily pay for.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:35:42 pm
content: For the purpose of prototyping, I would also classify this as two designs. Are you really going to spend time convincing any one for $5?

author: Blitzschnitzel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:44:06 pm
content: Not everyone is living in the land of the free.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:46:07 pm
content: Why handle this PCB as one, if it is easier to route out and handle 15x15mm PCBs and charge you twice.I call bullshit on this every single time.Milled slots and drilled holes are within the standard service. PCB with a slot and a few drills more does NOT handle any different, than the one without them. This is not about being cheapskate, this is about finding ways to bill nonsense for what does not add any cost to manufacture.

author: steenerson
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 08:41:37 pm
content: I'm not sure if they care because it's mechanically delicate, because most boards I get from them have a lot more slots and mouse bites than this and I've never paid extra. The upcharge is only when the boards aren't all identical when separated, which does seem a little nitpicky to apply in this case but I guess rules are rules

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 11:26:07 pm
content: Its two designs.If you can order before Oct 10, the additional cost for another board is only $2.Quote from: Yansi on October 04, 2019, 05:46:07 pmSure but thats life, they are free to set whatever limitations on charges they want.If you don't like it, use DirtyPCBs, the only low cost 2-layer service I am aware of that does not care about number of designs:http://dirtypcbs.com/store/pcbs/aboutWhat I do is leave the boards in the panel, let them fully route it, then I don't have to deal with placing mouse bites and nasty board edges. Value added. Admittedly I used to care about these things too.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 11:44:12 pm
content: Well, if the additional cost is just $2, then I would not even complain. However this is never the case with these vendors. Go and try what amount they want to charge you on top if you have two or more designs within one. (It is way more that ordering two times separately fully routed pcbs).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 01:02:43 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on October 04, 2019, 11:44:12 pmYeah you can only get the $2 if you upload it as its own PCB: "Amazing Offer: Only One $2 order(5pcs, 100x100mm, any color) in one package before, Now it allows Many $2 orders in one package.(Ends Oct 10th)"If you did this as a panel design it looks like its going to be an extra $7. So might be best to just design everything as one project/one PCB and merge later down the line if needed.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 01:11:03 am
content: yep, clear as day 2 designs, loose the routing and cut it out yourself and they won't care, you can still do a small indent where the slots are to make it easier to start your hacksaw, but keep it less than 1mm deep.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 09:32:55 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on October 05, 2019, 01:02:43 amOne tries to save the manufacturer a little bit of money by merging two PCBs, but no, he gets charged bullshit for trying to save them resources.Usually, I do not care about those $nothing offers, as they have some pretty specific conditions and if not all my PCBs are usually larger than those silly limits.I would rather prefer having a stable service with stable pricing, without silly bargain offers and without billing for nonsense.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 09:56:15 am
content: That exists. I've used elecrow for a long time and they don't care about my 10 different designs on a panel as long as the milling slot is at least 2mm in width. The price was around $15 which I think is much closer to the actual (non-subsidized) cost of making the boards.

author: DBecker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 04:46:57 pm
content: They know their challenges more than I do, but this design certainly looks like a high risk. That loose corner has a lot of leverage on the mouse bites, and the V scoring has to jump the slot.From their point of view this may be the worst type of multiple design on one board. They likely wouldn't have bothered to flag a different design. The next time you might try with a design that has no gap on the V score and enough tabs that the sub-board doesn't risk breaking off during production or packing.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 09:00:35 pm
content: Bullshit bro. There is no V-scoring. And this can be easily routed. You can confirm using your local PCB house.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 09:06:33 pm
content: Their company, their rules. Period. If they say it is two designs, it is two designs. You can take your business elsewhere if you don't agree.Why don't you go and yell at IC manufacturers that often ship the devices with the same amount of flash on the die, but lock parts of it out for different part numbers?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 10:02:39 pm
content: THe real problem is that the pricing model does not match the manufacturing costs. ANd since they all largely do it, they all can get away with it.If one did it, they all would do it very quickly. If the market demanded it, and had enough momentum it woudl happen. but I suspect it might also cauase an overall increase in basic costs.

author: DBecker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 03:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on October 05, 2019, 09:00:35 pmThey use V-scoring to separate individual boards from the panel. With the slots originally pictured the V-scoring would have to jump slots near the corner of the board, and that corner is unsupported.The original poster did check with the PCB house, and they provided the answer already.You might read what you posted and consider if it was appropriate.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 02:23:06 am
content: Quote from: DBecker on October 06, 2019, 03:52:17 pmIt would be unusal for a board house to use V-scoring as the way to seperate the Panels. It woudl severely limit how they could stack differnet jobs up.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 07:27:35 pm
content: QuoteGenius. I'm gonna build a PCB manufacturing plant, hire 12 people, and start full time production. So I can get in on this overcharging scam. Gonna be rich!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 09:10:45 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on October 07, 2019, 07:27:35 pmon your 0.17% margin

author: JPlocher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 04:54:38 pm
content: As others have said, you knew their fab and billing policy up front - if you want their cheap boards, it is one design per board.Otherwise send them 2x designs and pay an additional $5 or $10 for the second board, or panelize them like you did and pay them their 2x design in one board price. Or go elsewhere.Any way, you are getting a fantastic deal - free cad tools, free validation tools, no up front cost to produce designs except your time, and effectively zero cost for the manufacturing process.Stop calling bullshit because their attempts to run a profitable business run up against your attempts to squeeze more "free" out of their margins.EVERYONE's cheap boards are a loss leader to get people to submit larger orders with them. If you disagree with their policies, make your own boards.

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 07:42:01 pm
content: No, it is not pedantic. They are charging literally nothing.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 12:31:07 am
content: ^They are subsidizing YOU when you follow the rules to buy the cheap one-off proto special. If it weren't for some percentage of customers putting in large profitable orders on occasion, and PCB fabs competing for these profitable customers, the cheap proto special for hobbyists wouldn't exist. This is just a way to get "real" customers to try their site/service.If you care about saving $10.00 on your one-off, they would really rather you go somewhere else.

author: kellogs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2021, 08:08:36 am
content: My first order with them was on August 2020, have had 7 designs similar to OP's in prototyping quantities / small runs until December, roughly the same design with minor variations. I got charged for just 1 design. Today, on the 8th order, for roughly the same design, they said it was two designs. They have just confirmed by email the rules have not changed... Not an extra lot charged, it still is a bargain, but I wonder for how much longer. Also I do not recall a Paypal fee of 0.5$ during previous checkouts.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2021, 10:46:45 am
content: I don’t have any way of proving I am right, but I suspect that this rule is in place to weed out cheapskates who are never likely to convert into profitable customers. From where I am sitting, it looks like it is working well 😁

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2021, 02:37:31 pm
content: At the risk of rehashing this. They get to set the rules. I don't recall the added cost being that high though the one I got rejected was an assembly job. I chose not to go forward though.I believe a tech reviews each order and can choose to accept or reject. So, ones that got through were just luck. I think you can combine two orders for one shipping. Shipping is the bulk of the cost so why worry about 2 or 4 extra bucks?

author: Matt-Brown
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2021, 03:59:32 pm
content: The board houses we use would easily do any muliple designs on one panel with no extra charge.The only thing I hate about having mutiliple on one, is that if one board is bad, then you have to build a whole set again in order to get that one (bare panel, not parts). So you scvrap the other boards on the panel.Muti boards per panel are fine for very small qtys, but cost adds up when you get to volume.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 08:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on October 05, 2019, 10:02:39 pmIf the pricing model matched manufacturing costs you would be paying more. These ~$5 boards are loss leaders to get customers.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 11:28:22 pm
content: Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. In this case, there are two of them in the top-right.