Education/licences - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 09:30:29 am
content: Hi, just found the Youtube channel recently and have been watching the hell out of it, and it led me to sign up here after looking around a bit.Apologies if this has been discussed to death, but it's the kind if thing that tends to be pretty vague when you search other people's discussions of it because of different end goals.I'm wondering about formal education and licencing in electronics (here in Australia, by the way). I'll try to explain my situation a bit...I've been a recording engineer/producer for about 10 years. I know, every kid with a computer calls themselves an engineer or producer these days. But no, I don't just cut and paste pirated MP3 loops on a screen, I'm one of those dudes who actually knows how to use real studio gear and gets paid to do it.I did actually do a little formal education before I started working (left school to do a cert. 4 in Audio Engineering) and that's what has put me off the idea of formal education. The lecturers were great, and the first month or so of the course was great while we dealt with important basic knowledge like standards and so on (e.g. frequency, decibels, how microphones and speakers actually work, etc). But after that... wow. Biggest waste of time in my life. Within 3 months I had stopped attending classes and only showed up to stay enrolled and do tests. Not because of laziness, but because the classes were so painfully slow that I could learn the same info on my own in a fraction of the time at home, and then spend the rest of my time putting the learning to work in practice by working for free/cheap on any job I could get for experience. In the end, I was one of only 2 guys I know from the whole class who wound up working in the field, which shows just how much time wasting happened there.Over the years of building and running my own studio (though I'm freelance now), I was always making up my own cables and doing SUPER simple repairs/mods to gear and always wanted to find time to start learning to fix/build stuff myself. In the last year I've finally done that and I'm now spending a fair bit of time repairing, building and designing low voltage music equipment. There's times when I'm working on higher voltage stuff like my own tube amps, which is something I'd like to work more on when I'm ready, but the only reason I work on them now is that I had some bad experiences with "qualified techs" doing sloppy work and I found that what I lacked in knowledge I made up for in cautiousness and attention to detail. So I don't go diving into that stuff every day, but if there's a simple repair to be done I'll do it myself and so far I seem to still be alive and intact, and my gear is more reliable than when I used to pay techs to fix it.Anyway, I love playing with this stuff, and I'd like to take it on as a bit more than a hobby at some point and work in both fields (using audio equipment as a recording engineer AND fixing/designing it). I figured I'm going to need a licence to legally plug things I've worked on into the wall at some point so I got on the phone today and found Tafe courses for getting a restricted licence. The local Tafe does it at the rate of one class a week for 20 weeks for a couple grand. I figure that's a bit drawn out and expensive to essentially confirm that I can fit a power plug. Another Tafe offered the course via distance so you can do it at your own pace (read: do nothing else until it's done) for about a quarter of the cost. Much more suitable. But... either way, you then need 20 or so hours of on the job experience with someone qualified, which is a bit tricky when I'm working for myself. They suggested that I could hire a sparky to come around and supervise while I fix a handful of cords and stuff... hardly seems like a tempting option.While looking at courses I thought maybe I should also check out the idea of doing something with a bit more substance and studying electrical engineering properly. There's no way at this point in my life I could drop everything and go sit in a classroom for a few years so it would have to be a distance thing that I do in my own time and just go to a uni for tests or whatever they need. But then I keep thinking "What if it's like the audio course I did?". The fundamentals (even though I'm trying to study them in my own time already anyway) would definitely be great to cram into my skull, but if I wound up spending whole lessons hearing things like "This is a switch- if you flick it this way, it the light goes on. If you flick it the other way, the light goes off. Now you try... OK, good. This is a button- if you press it..." I would quite likely wind up going completely batshit crazy.So yeah. Basically, I want to make sure I know the fundamentals of electricity enough to work the rest out for myself as required. I'm sure I'm on track to doing this on my own anyway, but if a formal education is going to teach me these things on a level I can't do by myself then I'd like to consider it. And whether or not I do study it formally, I'd like to belegallyable to wire up equipment to mains power and repair stuff without having to drop my day job and go get an apprenticeship just to satisfy the on-the-job-experience-with-a-qualified-supervisor requirements of a licence. Am I missing something here? A different approach, a simple solution, etc.? Maybe I'm just feeling a bit cynical about things like licencing, I tend to be more of a believer in common sense and doing careful work rather than worrying about a piece of paper that says you can do the job.Thoughts/advice?Cheers

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 09:38:37 am
content: If you work on anything mains related, you need an electrical license.I'm sure others in the know will answer, but as far as I know, this varies greatly between state, and I was of the understanding that in some states it's not possible to get a license without going through a full apprenticeship. You can't just do a course like you used to be able to.i.e. you can have a diploma/degree/masters/Phd in EE and they will still make you go and do an apprenticeship if you want to legally wire up a mains plug.I hope I'm wrong...Dave.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 09:53:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2011, 09:38:37 amI think it just needs to be checked and signed off by someone with a license.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 09:56:45 am
content: Dave- Yeah that's what I'm afraid of, being caught in the shit sandwich of not being able to legally work on stuff because I don't have a few years to spare for an apprenticeshipDon't get me wrong, I'm not trying to devalue being cautious with mains voltages, I never stuff around carelessly with it. I'm just getting the vibe with all I read that licensing is more about going through the motions than actually being sensible or technically competent.The EE thing is more of a side note to the licence thing, although I figured if you've got a degree in EE you'd probably qualify for prior learning and be able to just apply directly for a licence rather than do any short course or anything?Psi- I did wonder about that actually. If you could just build the thing and get a sparky to test it. Or get a test and tag licence so you're qualified to inspect it after you've worked on it (although I asked if a test and tag licence allows you to fit plugs and so on, and was told no).It's all a little confusing to figure out the simplest way to do the right thing by the law unless you're going the household sparky apprenticeship route

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 10:03:05 am
content: If someone does check and sign off on something you made then they are legally responsible for it, not you.So they are going to check it pretty thoroughly and want enough money to justify the risk they are taking.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 11:43:22 am
content: Quote from: Psi on September 27, 2011, 09:53:42 amOf course.Same can be said for building your own house, or your own electric car etcThat doesn't help solve the problem though.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 11:48:40 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on September 27, 2011, 09:56:45 amThat used to be the way it was, but I am now under the impression that is not the case. (Sorry, have not checked exact details myself)Silicon Chip has made a huge deal of the whole mess in recent years and even had a national wide petition to change the laws, but I think it failed.QuoteCorrect.Anyone can get a test'n'tag license, and it's common to send someone from your company (the secretary, the gofer, the janitor, whoever) to the few day course so they can do it in-house instead of pay $5/tagQuoteYep, if you find out exact details please let me and everyone know.Dave.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 12:28:53 pm
content: I think it still depends on what State you live in.My WA "R"licence,which is valid till August 2013,allows me to:-(1)Disconnect/reconnect fixed wired equipment to 1000V,limited to like-for-like replacement of motors rated at not greater than 22kW,solenoids,pressure switches & LV-ELV isolating transformers.(2)Locate and rectify electrical faults like-for-like in up to 240V equipment connected by cord and plug only.(3)Attach flexible cord and plug in up to 240V equipment.(4) Locate and replace electrical faults like-for-like in up to 1000V equipment connected by cable & plug only.(5)Attach flexible cable and plug in up to 1000V equipment.Not authorised to install or alter fixed wiring.Some of the above seem contradictory,but they represent the "approved work scope"On the front of the card under "Approved Scope", I have :-1 2 3 4 5,so I can do all that stuff!I think you can get an "R" licence with less of the items on it,so there are apparently different versions depending on your job.For instance,Plumbers may need to disconnect power from Hot Water Systems without calling an Electrician in.Mine says that I'mauthorised to do these things in association with Communication/Computing Equipment,so maybe I'm not allowed to do exactly the same thing with equipment which does other things!Silly? yep!The WA "R" licence is much more than just a "plugfitters" licence!The course for this licence was only a few weeks at TAFE,but this was years ago.There was a lot of talk about an Australia-wide "R" licence,but whether anything came of it,I don't know!VK6ZGO

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 01:37:23 pm
content: Somewhat comforting to see that it is in fact a murky subject and it wasn't just my comprehension skills haha.I'll keep hunting and yeah if I find out anything I'll let you know.I just can't get my head around the distinction between different aspects of electrical maintenance. Any old moron with no idea about electricity can change a fuse or light bulb or jump start a car, but it takes formal training and licencing to change a plug or connect a transformer? Shit, I probably shouldn't say that in public and give the authorities any ideas... it IS still legal to replace a light bulb, right??!!

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2011, 11:52:52 pm
content: QuoteYeah but some company's wont allow it unless you have an electrical licenses have a working at heights certificate to be able to use a ladder and a working at heights permit with a safety observer present.http://www.learningseat.com/servlet/ShopLearning?categoryName=OHS+Working+at+Heights&learningId=OHS09_WAH&companyId=oliIf you work on anything mains related, you need an electrical license.I'm sure others in the know will answer, but as far as I know, this varies greatly between state, and I was of the understanding that in some states it's not possible to get a license without going through a full apprenticeship. You can't just do a course like you used to be able to.i.e. you can have a diploma/degree/masters/Phd in EE and they will still make you go and do an apprenticeship if you want to legally wire up a mains plug.I hope I'm wrong...Dave.Hope no longer Dave it is not as clear cut as you say. Like if you live in a remote rural area you can do whatever you want to.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4480.msg62460#msg62460What state are you in. If you live near me I can help sign off on your restricted electrical license (PM ME).Maybe dohttp://www.tafe.qld.gov.au/cis/index.php?script_name=coursedetails&course_id=2105Or see if you can joinhttp://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/and see if they will assess you to become a registrable engineer

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 05:06:21 am
content: Jimmy- Cheers mate, very kind of you to offer! I'm on the Gold Coast.I've spent a few hours last night and today looking into doing this:http://www.usq.edu.au/handbook/2011/eng/ADNG.html(obviously majoring in electrical)I dropped out of high school so getting into a higher level could be tricky, but according to the person I spoke to this one is a possibility. The way I see it after a couple years of study in my own time I'd A) have learned a lot of useful theory, and B) would have something legitimate to show if I was to try to get some kind of licence under a recognition of prior learning type thing.But... I figured I better find out for sure about the laws and I called the official people to talk to (I started with a licencing section and got transferred through departments, and I'm hopeless at remembering the names of government departments but I think ultimately it was the Department of Electrical Safety and Licencing).So here's the facts as told to me. The guy was really helpful and sounded like he understood the frustration, he even made some calls looking for loopholes but had no real success.- No licence needed for extra low voltage obviously. The definition of extra low voltage given was 50 volts A.C. (I forgot to ask if that was peak or RMS) or 110 volts ripple free DC. I asked if current factored in and was told no. Funny, I would have thought there was a slight safety difference between playing with an LED and a few volts DC and pulling some decent current through a 50 volt A.C. supply, but there you go.- Restricted licence is essentially useless for electrical work (at least here in Queensland). You can basically pull the plug on things like hot water systems or change a plug and that's about it. Really doesn't seem to be intended for actual electrical work, more just for other tradies to avoid calling a sparky to pull a plug.- Yep, somebody with a degree in electrical engineering is not legally allowed to work on stuff above ELV. The argument they use is likening an EE and electrical mechanic to an architect and builder, theory vs. experience. So I asked if that meant a qualified EE could prototype a design that required building a basic power supply that connects to the wall. The answer was yes. But... if the device goes into production, that same EE can't repair one of the manufactured units. I could almost see the guy on the phone rolling his eyes as we went through this. Reading back over that I'm now wondering how the law views it if you work on a piece of equipment but don't touch anything past the filter caps (remembering that they specifiedripple freeDC)? Not trying to ask this in a smartass work around way. As an example, I have my mixing console on the bench right now. I'm only working on the audio input board, which is physically separated from the power supply board. I'm not even connected to that board, I'm just using my (illegally built) +/- 15 volt DC supply on my bench to power it for testing. So am I breaking the law because this is PART of a piece of equipment that connects to mains? Is it OK because it falls under the ELV category on it's own? Did I break the law by removing it from the mixing console? I'm stumped. I guess what I'm saying is, does ELV mean you're running those voltages off a store bought wall wart or can it be interpreted as anything up to those voltages inside other equipment?- The guy couldn't find any way for someone to be legally allowed to work on things over ELV without actually going through the process of becoming an electrician and doing an apprenticeship (although I have read that you can "assist" an electrician while studying), with one exception. Apparently if you're working in the repair department for a big company, you don't need to be a qualified electrical mechanic. He asked the experts if one can have their workshop fall into this category and was told no. I don't know if that means that the big companies (the example he used was Rheem hot water systems) are assumed to have qualified supervisors on staff at a good ratio, or if it's a liability thing, or a company licencing thing or what, it was really vague.Definitely pretty confused right now haha.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 06:14:57 am
content: Yes it is frustratingbut- Yep, somebody with a degree in electrical engineering is not legally allowed to work on stuff above ELV. The argument they use is likening an EE and electrical mechanic to an architect and builder, theory vs. experience. So I asked if that meant a qualified EE could prototype a design that required building a basic power supply that connects to the wall. The answer was yes. But... if the device goes into production, that same EE can't repair one of the manufactured units. I could almost see the guy on the phone rolling his eyes as we went through this.I believe is incorrectAs per the electrical safety act an engineer can work as an electrician if he works for a company that has an electrical contractors license.QuoteYesWhen you open up an appliance that has a mains connection and you can see where it is live then that falls under the category of "needing a license" If it has a wall wort go for your life.Remember it is almost always illegal to work live in qld. If you need to ask then you are not allowed to work live.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 06:51:48 am
content: Ahh yep I think that's how that Rheem example worked then, the company would have the electrical contractors licence. That only allowed non electrical mechanics to work in the on site service centre though, is that any different with a qualified engineer? And then how does a company get an electrical contractors licence? If a few years down the track I started a company building guitar amps, could my company get a licence which would allow me to work on the things or would I have to employ an electrical mechanic to supervise me?Yeah I figured it was probably breaking the law. As with every other device I've ever opened up haha. I'm really stumped on how to proceed here. At home, sure, I'll open things up and tinker. But I'd like to be able to build stuff for other people down the line and I'm not doing that without covering my ass. But the only way to do that from what I've been able to find out is to quit my job and be an apprentice for 4 years which really isn't an option. If that's really the only option then my mind is truly blown.Again, I'm not trying to half ass studying or safety, I want to learn more and do things right. But seeing as I can already wire up a power supply to mains without frying things or myself, I can't quite fathom how I'd need a 4 year apprenticeship to prove I can do it

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 07:11:46 am
content: Another thought just sprung to mind about the restricted licence angle (to at least allow me to do things like re-tube my amps from time to time legally). From reading thishttp://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/electrical-safety/electrical-workers-and-contractors/licencing/restricted-electrical-licence-system-information-guide/elgiibility-for-a-restricted-electrical-licenceI wonder if being an audio engineer (qualified, for whatever that's worth to them) is sufficient reason for a restricted licence. If I understand correctly what they're saying herehttp://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/electrical-safety/electrical-workers-and-contractors/licencing/restricted-electrical-licence-system-information-guide/scope-of-the-licence-systema restricted licence based on my job as an audio engineer would allow me to legally do basic equipment maintenance as long as I stay within original spec, right? So I could change tubes, recap things, replace cords and so on? It doesn't help with being allowed to build my own power supplies or do modifications to things, but it's a step in the right direction I guess which might help with future applications as far as prior experience goesP.S. Sorry for thinking out loud so much here haha, just trying to make sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 08:06:03 am
content: YeahD a restricted electrical license with endorsement Composite equipment, Electronics and Instrumentation/Process control. To be sure you are covered to do any repair work for customers. I can sign you logbook for you if you are competent to do the work.http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/8856/es-licensing-policy.pdfTo get an electrical contractors license you need to be an electrician.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 10:44:17 am
content: Cheers mate, very cool of youI'll get on the phone and see what I can organise. I'm in no mad rush, I've just been trying to make sure the option is there at some point

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 02:48:14 pm
content: Health and safety is not to be mocked. It is obvious that all these measures are absolutely essential to the health and well being of fellow workers! Honest

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 02:49:55 pm
content: Or is it to prevent companies getting sued if someone gets hurt? I get confused.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 04:45:34 pm
content: Or does it mean workers in Queensland are dumber than elsewhere?VK6ZGO

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2011, 06:16:12 pm
content: Quote from: Jimmy on September 28, 2011, 06:14:57 amIt appears Qld has the best laws in the country related to this. Its arguable what constitutes the exemption for the practice of electrical engineering (and whether this means only chartered engineers?), but I suspect its intent is related to the mains component in the design and manufacture of equipment. As an electrical engineer one could perhaps go an do the electrical contractors license?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2011, 04:18:02 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on September 28, 2011, 06:16:12 pmThis is the point!In Queensland,it appears not only that you can't get a Contractor's licence without doing an Apprenticeship,& it is very difficult to get a "R" licence (which appears to be way more restrictive than the WA one),without working in a firm which has the required Electrical Contractor to supervise you.I would suggest that most of the technical people working in Radio & TV Broadcasting in that State are nominally breaking the law.In WA,the restriction is not so bad,but is still there.As things are, the State authorities are intruding into an area that they basically ignored before.It is a nasty feeling to be doing what you have done for a living most of your life,& realise that officially you are a lawbreaker.What really rubs it in is Electrical Contractors doing Communications installations which used to be done by Technicians!The really silly thing is,Techs & EEs who have enough knowledge to do a safe job usually have no desire to go home & re-wire their houses,(they just want to do their jobs legally),but people with no knowledge of Electrical Theory,wiring standards or the law just go ahead & do it,anyway!VK6ZGO

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2011, 05:20:15 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 28, 2011, 04:45:34 pmYou may be onto something there

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2011, 06:29:09 am
content: QuoteI agree all electrical engineers should be able to do electrical work within there respective field which they can do as the law states in qld. But for all the joe public buying power points and installing them in there own house they deserve it if they burn there house down.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2011, 05:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: Jimmy on September 29, 2011, 06:29:09 amThis is what keeps confusing me about this whole caper I'm on haha, every time I think I understand what is legal I hear something to the contrary. Are you saying that an electrical engineer (I assume with a certain level of qualification?) in Queensland, who for example makes a living designing lamps, can legally put a mains cord in a lamp they build and hook it up to a bulb inside (or connect the cord to a transformer for a low voltage bulb, either way)? No need for an electrical mechanic licence? Because this makes sense, and is the way I had assumed things would logically work. But on the phone to the licencing folk, they definitely told me the opposite of this. They said quite clearly that if you don't have an electrical mechanic licence, whether or not you're a qualified EE you aren't touching anything connecting to mains with a 10 foot pole. Although when I asked about the idea of a qualified EE prototyping a design, it was apparently OK in that scenario, but only in that scenario. Which is quite baffling.I don't get it at all. Did I just speak to someone totally clueless on the phone? Or... hang on... is the difference in working for a company with licences vs. working for yourself? I know that has come up in this conversation, whereas my conversation with them was focussed on self employment.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2011, 06:15:40 am
content: I think you spoke to someone that is clueless.Until someone can reference to me where it is not legal in Queensland than as I read it if you have a degree in electrical engineeringgranted by an approved school of engineering under the Professional Engineers Act 1988; or an approved faculty of engineering under theProfessional Engineers Act 1988; then A person is not required to hold an electrical work license for the purpose of performance or supervision of electrical work in practicing the person’s profession as an electrical engineer;That means if as an engineer trouble shooting audio equipment and repairs it as part of his normal work then he doesn't require a license. or maybe my English not so good

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 07:00:38 am
content: Seems logical, huh?I think I'll give them another call this week and see what story I get this time haha

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 07:22:52 am
content: Quote from: Jimmy on October 01, 2011, 06:15:40 amThe problem as I see is that for an Electrical Power Engineer, residential wiring systems may actually be "their" practice of electrical engineering. My guess is that no-one has tested the Act. ie. sued the board for not allowing them to obtain a contractors license.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 10:17:16 am
content: QuoteDon't ring them unless you are going to post the recording. Just email them and you can ask can I test the work to see if its safe and sign off on it without a license. They should say yes because you don't need a license to test.Quote.QuoteDavid should fill out the application but remember you must meet all the requirements first have a degree or be registered as an engineer, Have the correct business qualification and be insured for up to $50000.In Australia people don't sue the government because if they win the just change the law.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 10:38:40 am
content: This is what keeps confusing me about this whole caper I'm on haha, every time I think I understand what is legal I hear something to the contrary. Are you saying that an electrical engineer (I assume with a certain level of qualification?) in Queensland, who for example makes a living designing lamps, can legally put a mains cord in a lamp they build and hook it up to a bulb inside (or connect the cord to a transformer for a low voltage bulb, either way)? No need for an electrical mechanic licence? Because this makes sense, and is the way I had assumed things would logically work. But on the phone to the licencing folk, they definitely told me the opposite of this. They said quite clearly that if you don't have an electrical mechanic licence, whether or not you're a qualified EE you aren't touching anything connecting to mains with a 10 foot pole. Although when I asked about the idea of a qualified EE prototyping a design, it was apparently OK in that scenario, but only in that scenario. Which is quite baffling.I don't get it at all. Did I just speak to someone totally clueless on the phone? Or... hang on... is the difference in working for a company with licences vs. working for yourself? I know that has come up in this conversation, whereas my conversation with them was focussed on self employment.I was lead to believe that was technically the case. Unless you are a licensed electrician, technically you are not allowed to replace a mains plug on a lamp, or anything mains related on a consumer electrical item, household wiring etc.But you are allowed to work on prototype professional gear as part of your profession. So you can do mains wiring inside a bit of gear, but you can't touch the plug that goes into the wall or something equally as stupid. The solution was to make all your gear have IEC mains connectors, and not fixed mains cordsLeo Simpson did quite a few opinion pieces on this, and even a full article, I might have to dig it up...Dave.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 10:55:45 am
content: Leo dose make some good pointshttp://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101979/article.htmlThe electricians do have a legal obligation to dob in unlicensed or faulty work. If an electrician goes into a house and there is no rcd's on the light and power he has to give the owner a quote to upgrade there wiring to standard. If they decline then you have to notify the eso which will fine you and turn your power off until it is fixed. In practice the owner usually just does the work because you use the word safer.Here is a simple question do you need to earth a metal tap if it has poly pipe going to it?Hint (equipotential bondage)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 11:02:29 am
content: Here is the article in SC:http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157627683312015/I'm sure Leo wouldn't mind me copying this one and sharing in this instance.Dave.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 11:25:41 am
content: So he starts off by saying you can't do it but proceeds to tell you how to do it. I wouldn't write an article like that for fear of prosecution.Now in QLD all retail outlets must display a NO DIY sign on all products that need to be installed by an electrician.http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/electrical-safety/forms-and-publications/outlook/winter-2011/dont-diy-warning-signsMy brother works for a retailer and is always asked how do you do this and he ends up having arguments with the customers because he tells them they are not allowed to do it themselves. I told him not to argue just tell them I don't know I just work here.Just because you are an electrician doesn't mean you are safe.editJust because you have a peace of paper saying you can do something doesn't make it safe.QuoteQuote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 11:57:35 am
content: Quote from: Jimmy on October 03, 2011, 11:25:41 amIt's fear like that that makes the current situation as stupid as it is.Who's going to prosecute him?, and for what? Publishing DIY info?In that case I'd better shut down this forum, the blog, and the whole internet!Electronics Magazines in oz have been publishing and promoting "potentially dangerous" and (in this instance it seems) technically "possibly illegal" DIY information since the 1930's or something.Thankfully there are new more sensible liability laws in this country that put the responsibility back into the hands of the individual.That came about because of the insurance crisis about a decade ago when a spate of stupid liability lawsuits hit the market and the idiots were winning. Like suing the local council because some idiot goes and dives off a cliff head first and ends up in a wheelchair.I remember, as one example, the whole adventure industry was almost shut down because they couldn't get insurance any more. And likewise bushwalking clubs were going to be shut down as well, lest someone trip over and sue. And I couldn't invite people along on my canyoning trips lest they sue me if they got a scratch. The fear spread like wildfire.Then the new anti-idiot laws were introduced, that basically say, unless someone does something deliberately and purposely wrong , with intent, that results in injury of someone, the responsibility is on the individual.Dave.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 01:07:36 pm
content: QuoteI don't see anyone on the blog tell you how to do electrical wiring for power points or lights. I don't take safety lightly that is why when I said I will sign off on the log book I will need to inspect the work in person.The worst thing that could happen to me is the ESO could take my License off me which would impact my employment opportunities. Currently I can do any type of electrical work I like Legally.If someone was to ask me a electrical question and I thought that they would go ahead and do the work anyway I would tell them how to do it safely. I just wouldn't write an electricians handbook for dummies and have it published in a magazine.QuoteIn a workplace they have changed it so the people up the line eg manager, ceo can have more responsibility that the worker that got injured.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 02:04:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 03, 2011, 10:38:40 amThere is a lot of misinformation and a lot of fog about this. As an engineer or as Joe public you can replace a plug, delve within an appliance etc, legally! You cannot touch fixed wiring! Those are the legalities, however things get a lot murkier very quickly the moment you wish to do such works commercially. There is C & A Tick certification to contend with for any products sold, a self administered system of administrative duck shoving.The other mistake in this thread is reference to Electrical Contractors License, anyone can apply for one of these, the applicant does not have to be a qualified electrician. The rub is however that to do any electrical work you need to have in your employ a licensed electrical mechanic who does or supervises the work. eg: An air conditioning company can hold a contractors license, but all electrical work must be performed and signed off by licensed electrical tradesmen.A licensed tradesman must also hold a contractors license if he wishes sell his work directly.If he does data or other communications cabling he also needs a ACMA cablers ticketIf he works on any form of security system he needs a Security installers licenceetc etc plus the insurances to go with every new task.So yo soon get the idea why you are paying some monkey $75 - $150 an hour to run speaker cables. Bureaucratic interference at every turn.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2011, 08:55:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 03, 2011, 11:02:29 amFrom what I can tell the major beef of the electrical boards is that techs and engineers are not familiar with the wiring code...For the benefit of New Zealand readers maybe Leo should include a monthly column on wiring ones home to Australian Standards.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 12:45:09 am
content: QuoteNZ has the same standard.QuoteSo you are saying that anyone can do appliance work as long as it is not paid work?QuoteNot anyone you need to be A qualified business person and be or employ A qualified technical person and if one leave's you need to employ another one within 1 month.QuoteQuoteQuote

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 12:55:39 am
content: Quote from: Jimmy on October 04, 2011, 12:45:09 amIt would be quite wrong for Australians to learn about Australian Standards.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 01:10:24 am
content: Quote from: Jimmy on October 04, 2011, 12:45:09 amNZ follows identical standards, the do however have very different regulations. Each of the Australian states follows AS:3000 but regulations differ from state to state.QuoteNo even charities get caught up in the bureaucracy. To sell a 2nd hand lamp at an OP-shop required a test tag. Yet any piece of imported crap can be sold new untested. The onus being on the seller or importer, with an assumption they have ensured each item complies with local regulations. Madness.What I was saying is you can quite legally perform such works for yourself, unlike fixed wiring which you cannot without qualifications.QuoteWTF is a qualified business person? Anyone can register a business.. I've seen the law bent on occasion by placing a subcontractor on the books.Quoteany works must be performed by licensed and qualified personnel, A licensed contractor with no licensed staff could only do work during that period by using a licensed subcontractor.The point remains that an Electrical Contractors Licence and an Electricians licence are very different things.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 01:20:53 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on October 04, 2011, 12:55:39 amFor the benefit of those from other lands, the distinction is in regulations rather than the wiring rules which are identical. NZ has taken a much more intelligent and less bureaucratic approach to DIY wiring, realising that people are going to do it themselves anyway.The approach NZ has taken is that if DIYers are going to do their own wiring, it only makes sense to try and educate them do it correctly. DIY wiring is not encouraged but efforts are made to make sure DIYers know what is required to do the work and to do the work safely.As a one time in the deep dark past (and still licensed) electrician I'd commend the NZ policy in comparison to local stupidity.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 05:27:58 am
content: QuoteSorry I forgot to note that he quotes were from the QLD electrical safety act. So you are arguing a point with a legal document which is futile. Sorry that's my fault.Anyway lets get this debate back on David's agenda in QLD how can he fix audio equipment legally.I am not sure because I thought you needed to be qualified to work on anything over 50v ac and 110v ripple free dc. However audio equipment after the psu would normally fall under those voltages and a restricted electrical license would cover the plug and psu side of things for testing and replacement for like products. Does a plumber with a restricted electrical license to change hot water systems need to work for a licensed electrical contractor?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 06:30:36 am
content: Quote from: Jimmy on October 04, 2011, 05:27:58 amNot at all, what you must remember is what works that act has jurisdiction over. Fixed wiring! as has been mentioned many times.QuoteIn terms of the electrical safety act yes he can provided it is not fixed wiring. In terms of OH&S, work-cover, insurances, consumer protection laws the situation is less clear.QuoteIt is 32VAC and again this only applies to fixed wiring.QuoteAudio stages can often be 100V and over rail to rail. To be pedantic 100V lines are common for PA speakers, again we come back to it is not fixed wiring. A restricted licence may be sufficient to appease the insurance company, work cover etc but would be only required to satisfy the issues outside the scope of any Electrical rules.QuoteNo! Can a plumber reconnect a replacement HWS? Maybe! If the reconnection can be achieved with existing cables and there are no changes to the sub-circuit,yes he can as long as he does not work alone. Can you install or modify a sub-circuit on a restricted license? The answer for most states is no!David will need to satisfy any workplace requirements of a potential employer. If working for himself. my best advice would be to do a Test'n'Tag course. If he is qualified to test item he can test and return his own work. He cannot work on fixed wiring without a ticket and he need to discuss with his insurance company any requirements for this type of work.The electrical regulation bodies should, but do not, offer support to workers from non electrical trades.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 09:26:05 am
content: Wow Uncle Vernon I can't believe I missed that point "act has jurisdiction over" I feel like a goose. I have been educated on something today. It is a very grey area which is why most company's just hire licensed electricians.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2011, 11:25:42 am
content: Quote from: Jimmy on October 04, 2011, 09:26:05 amThat's it in a nutshell. The problem being that not many electricians can fix amplifiers, repair microwaves, even troubleshoot control systems. There are too many interest and lobby groups bending political ears and as a nation (like most western nations) we are being dragged into unproductive bureaucratic sinkholes.It's a nightmare for employers, employees and customers,a nighmare where are concerned are losing. The unions, the industry associations, the businesses and the (once were) employees.Higher wages are only part of the cost of business, scan back through this thread and you get a good idea why nothing gets repaired and everything is made overseas. </rant>

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2011, 08:16:43 am
content: Wow... didn't check this thread for a few days, came back and now I'm even more baffled!To be honest, I've spent the last week just building and fixing stuff (ELV stuff except for the bench supply I built myself) and trying not to even think about this, it was burning me out. What a mess. The rules as told by the authority I spoke to and by various people here are all quite different. And I don't know who is really right, because some of the people here seem much more clued into the laws than the authorities were (at least the person I spoke to), but then there's still disagreement about it. Then there's schools, other sparkys I know who I've spoken to and audio gear geeks too, who have their own interpretations and opinions to throw into the mix.I think when the law is this widely interpreted, it's safe to say it's a clusterfuck, yeah?

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2011, 12:01:12 am
content: DavidUncle Vernon hit the nail in my head withQuote

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2012, 07:21:47 am
content: So I finally got around to following up on this again with the ESO.Same result as last time, only with a far less helpful person. The guy told me the term "ripple free DC" was above his level of technical expertise, so that goes a long way towards explaining why talking to call centre staff about actual issues is so frustrating. I don't know how typical of the staff there this guy was, but the guy was absolutely clueless about this stuff, all he knew was what he could read off his screen. He didn't try to hide this, and I didn't grill him about it or anything, but it was very frustrating.About the fixed wiring thing- are you trying to say that I can work on devices, but not wiring in walls? Because the guy today was the second guy in a row there to tell me specifically I can't work on equipment such as amps/effects racks and so on, which obviously aren't part of that. Or does fixed wiring here mean a non-detachable power cord? I didn't specifically ask about that case on the phone, though I've asked that in an email because the guy on the phone was completely stumped about the whole situation and told me I'd have to ask all my licensing questions/regulation questions through email so they can find somebody in the office who understands and can answer the questions. Yes, the people who handle licensing couldn't answer my licensing questions or understand the terminology. Not a misprint haha.Anyways, if I get a reply I'll happily pass on the info (maybe best as the complete emails so there's no chance of misunderstanding).Question for Uncle Vernon though, you mentioned 32VAC, where is that number from? I haven't heard that figure at all so far in conversations with ESO. Is that related to the ELV thing (which I've been told multiple times is 50VAC/110VDC) or a separate fixed wiring thing?