Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: IdahoMan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 02:29:03 am
content: Let's go Brandon!Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeksPropaganda removed"The Biden administration is preparing to implement a sweeping nationwideban on commonly used light bulbs as part of its energy efficiency and climate agenda."------------------I'll tell you one thing, I'll be danged I'm going to put thoseinappropriate ward removed, blue, hideous, over-bright, stabbing, abomination LED lights on my vehicle.So the question(s): How do I get regular lights for vehicle?-Smuggle them somehow?-How hard would it be to home-make a bulb?Thanks,IM

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 02:38:15 am
content: Vehicle? It sounds like they're talking about household bulbs, with incandescent and halogen versions largely being phased out already for years. Vehicles have a regulatory challenge in that LED retrofits into headlamps and signal lights are not DOT approved and there are no LED headlamp retrofits that are compatible with existing optics meant for halogen lamps.I think a ban is pointless since the market has already been dominated by LED, but I don't think those of us with vehicles old enough to have incandescent lamps have much to worry about. Besides, as long as they're being manufactured you'll still be able to order them from China.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 02:53:21 am
content: the only thing I am worried about is heat lamps, I love them in the bathroom. 300 watts and they get used a handful of times a year on cold winters.If they discontinue them, then ~1 hour of 300 watts being drawn will probobly be replaced by many hours of 1000 watt heater being run (its slow, need to heat up before you shower). Very stupid trade off, people that switch from occasional IR heating to convection heating willslaughterthe energy savings lolAnd BTW I pity the people that use the cheap LED lights, just wow, I think they make people mental when the color temperature is all fucked up. But so long like good bulbs are available, there is no way in hell I want to go back to CFL or incandescent for lighting purposes. For heating purposes the infrared bulb is unmatched.And small incandescents, under say 10W, should be exempt because they are relaxing. IMO these bulbs are medical devices that can reduce sleeping problems, particularly on a dimmer when run at lower power levels.There is another factor too, I wonder how much E-waste will be generated when bulb inrush limiter circuits (dim bulb limiter) are unavailable for electronics trouble shooting. There has got to be mountains of SMPSU that were fixed thanks to these thingsGuess you need to design a new type of current limiter, hopefully a box of complex electronics. Assuming this happens, we need a possibly tax stamped bulb available for scientific purposes, because the bulb is a unique component useful for complex repairs.... say for repairing a $5000 welding machine or something. If I came across this problem, with SMPSU, which are just getting more common, I would pay $25 for a bulb easily. Think ahead for your green agenda, because repairing stuff is green, and repairing a solar inverter with a light bulb is a BIG WIN for the climate, that makes it appealing for customers to purchase because its repairable.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:02:16 am
content: (this one is almost like some, sick, click-bait)Don worry about your older car's needing incandescent bulbs...soon they'll be coming to take your whole car !(Slurred speech, like our leader)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:04:40 am
content: Is that an April's fool?(Oh the whole "climate agenda" looks so much like an April's fool anyway.)

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:13:59 am
content: Incadescent light bulbs can still be bought in Europe ... they just label them "for industrial equipment" , as heating elements for warming fertilized chicken eggs...

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:17:17 am
content: They banned import/sale of 100W incandescent bulbs in Canada in 2014 and 40W & 60W in 2015.There are exceptions for things like oven lights, etc...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:19:56 am
content: I also believe they are necessary for high vibration environments.But damn they all have unique thermoelectric behavior for limiter circuits, its just like replacing the most functional thing with the most rupe goldberg thing ever. Transistor arrays to replace a damn 1 inch long coil.Read this thread to see how the alternatives look. I tried to get rid of the bulb with a few ideas and they literary all failed miserably based on others analysis.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/current-limiter-box-for-repairs/this is the kind of technology that people use to repair expensive welding machines that can put a person on the street if they break (well, at least as important as a company car). ! Unless they send a permanent government oversight committee to make the Miller Company welding equipment more friendly towards repairs, I want my damn light bulbs. I suspect people use them for fix complex inverters, VFD, etc (all very expensive and critical electrical equipment for basically everyone including big and small companies now). Wanna know how to win the war with china? Speed. Don't put a business out of service because they cant restrict current to repair some POS transistor holding up a assembly line and have to get into expensive service contracts and all sorts of expensive shit!

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:27:41 am
content: Ooh this sounds familiar.I did a quick look for the source of this news and its Fox. Quell surprise. I guess this explains the thought that it also means car headlight bulbs. I did chuckle as I went down the list on the search as one of the places which this is a hot topic is a AR15 forum.We had a similar thing back a few years ago in the UK. All it did was motivate the doomsday types to go out and buy a fookton of 100W bulbs. Also for the EU to get the blame as a nanny state etc. Funnily enough we can still buy 100W bulbs, they are just not in your supermarket shelves.I note the headline is rather pointed. It's not aimed at Biden, but his administration. This I guess is in preparation for him not standing again so a scare story to do with somthing close to Americans hearts is chosen to batter the whole party. This is much like what happened in the UK towards the EU prior to the Brexit stuff.Does changing bulbs do much for households. In my case not much but I guess with the recent hike in electricity prices it did help take the edge off it a little.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:03:37 am
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on April 02, 2023, 08:27:41 amDon't blame the hydra, cut the head!Maybe bad PR wouldn't be happening to the EU or the US government if they could abstain from making fools of themselves

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:09:07 am
content: I don't see any reason incandescent bulbs would be banned on vehicles: 60W per side of power consumption is nothing compared to the 60kW or so required to cruise on the highway for an ICE (after efficiency losses). Far better to phase out ICE vehicles instead... which will eventually happen. Not to make this an EV debate but it's already on the roadmap for most car makers and governments.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:30:40 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 02, 2023, 09:09:07 amIt would be a sneaky way to ban the old direct fossil fuel burning vehicles. Make one of the consumables almost impossible to buy and then let them gradually phase out. They can't ban the cars, that would be political suicide but they can wean us off them by just making it awkward to use them. It's not like the 2 most direct routes I have to the motorway are protected by clean air zones.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:45:34 am
content: It's trivially easy to fit LED or HID H-x replacement lamps anyway.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 10:01:28 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on April 02, 2023, 09:45:34 amYou "have" to replace the whole fixture on most modern cars (pre-LED modern) if you upgrade to LED as the beam pattern is based on filament bulbs.At least in the UK, you should fail MOT (yearly vehicle check to see if it is roadworthy) if you use LED bulbs in a filament-based fixture if the beam is modified outside of spec.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 11:06:58 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 02, 2023, 09:09:07 amAnd yet, in some US states, it is still currently illegal to have 'Day Beam' headlights or run your headlights during the day because of the slight extra load on your alternator, wasting a few tea-spoons of gas over the year.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 11:22:33 am
content: in europe, at least in france, we can't buy any halogen or incandescent light bulb for home since many years.I don't remember when but it may be 10 years ago !it's really consume less with led lightif you don't like the color of "white" leds, just buy rgb leds and choose the color you want...edit: it was in september 2018...so 5 years.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 11:45:03 am
content: Yanks: Prepare for America to be flooded with the same crap quality Chinese lightbulbs that have been afflicting Europe for the last decade. Fact, SMD LEDs last for around 50,000 hours. Inconvenient truth, put them in a lightbulb, overdrive the LED's to make them bright and, they last no more than 50 weeks. Which is about the same life span of a classic tungsten bulb. So you have to buy another one = re$ult. Anyone thinking about the mountain of extra e-waste? Teardown an LED light bulb and you'll understand just how ecologically sound these are, not.I agree that each bulb uses less energy, but how many more light fixtures do we have in our homes when compared to 30 year's ago? If California and Texas really want to keep the lights on, then maybe they should consider buyinglessTeslas?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 12:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on April 02, 2023, 11:45:03 amBuy cheap, buy twice. I've 8 year old LED bulbs bought from Costco that are still fine and used daily. They were ~£5 each. I now have Ikea Tradfri in a few locations as smart RGB lighting on a Zigbee network. Reports are that these should easily do 5 years based on other feedback.Besides, even if a LED bulb only lasted a year, do you really think it is better to use incandescent? 2,000 hour lifespan consumes 120kWh in the case of incandescent, but only 12kWh in case of LED. Do you think a LED bulb costs more than 108kWh to manufacture? At current industrial prices, that would mean a bulb would cost more than £10 in electricity alone. Some electricity is more polluting than other electricity, sure, but the energy consumption of manufacturing a LED bulb really can't be that high if they can land on the store shelf for under £3 a bulb.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 12:58:28 pm
content: I changed halogen bulbs quite often before. sorry to say, but I didn't change a lot of my (almost all chinese) leds since I installed then years ago alsoit was really before the halogen bulb were no more for sale here.I still change some led light from time to time, but it is really less than incandescent or halogen.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 01:05:58 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 02, 2023, 11:06:58 amreally? source? I haven't heard this. although it wouldn't surprise me in some of the People's Republics.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 01:07:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 02, 2023, 02:53:21 amThere's a new generation of ceramic heat lamps to replace the old fragile glass ones. As they emit no visible light, they would not be considered a lighting device.QuoteCould use an induction motor, one that is not turning has a very low impedance. Add a brake to adjust how much current it takes before it starts to rotate.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 01:48:36 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on April 02, 2023, 11:45:03 amMost of the LED bulbs I can buy in the UK aren't that reliable. However, in the ones I have checked, the LEDs themselves in dead ones are fine. Its the control electronics that has died.We moved to our current house in 2017. There was a mish mash of bulbs in the house, so I replaced them all with LEDs in one go. In the 6 years since then I have had to replace about half of them, some of them infrequently used ones that haven't gathered that many operating hours. Use them in any kind of shrouded location, that restricts air flow, and all but the lowest power ones tend to cook. Most of them say "not for use in an enclosed luminaire" or something similar, just like most CFLs did. However, most people want to put bulbs in somewhere between a fairly shrouding light shade and a fully enclosed luminaire. These days if you want a fully enclosed luminaire, buy one with integrated LEDs. You'll have to replace the whole fitting if a LED fails, but the cooling of the spread out electronics is so much better they probably won't fail too often.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 01:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 02, 2023, 02:53:21 amThe regulations would have to be really poorly worded if they exclude every kind of filament bulb from the market, and make even things like food warming infra red bulbs illegal. There should be something left that is readily obtainable which would work well as a current limiter.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 01:57:57 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 02, 2023, 11:06:58 amI have no idea where you found such a law.Here is a law firm's summary of headlight laws in all 50 States:https://www.sgplaw.com/blog/2020/april/when-must-you-use-your-headlights-when-are-they-/Note that there are restrictions in many states for the use ofhigh beams, but none about the use of normal headlight beams.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 01:59:07 pm
content: Generally I'm ambivalent to the arguments here though I do use some LED for home lighting, I've no problem with the energy costs and for reading lamps I do use tungsten halogen types.However, since being sent some lamps by a friend that use multiple under run LED filaments for greater efficiency and longer life, as yet none have failed so thumbs up! (Search Philips Dubai lamps).At work, for less eye strain the whole company still uses TH lighting at work stations.However:Being told what I must use boils my piss.I get it that the administrations in the UK, Europe, and the US, do need to conserve energy. The reasons are not made clear though, to them it's just a freaking popularity contest to gain the acceptance of self-righteous snowflakes who think they're saving the world by buying millions of tonnes of eco approved technowaste to pollute the environment even more than it already is.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:00:29 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on April 02, 2023, 10:01:28 amAlthough it's possible to cheat the MOT (replace with original bulbs just for the test - like bikers would do with loud exhausts) the bigger 'danger' for the driver is insurance. If they want to wiggle out of a claim, a car not MOT-worthy is the easy route. Then you're driving without insurance, and open to a huge world of hurt.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:28:36 pm
content: I also searched for the original Fox News source, and read it thoroughly. The news piece has this golden nugget, copied verbatim:Former President Donald Trump was also personally opposed to LED light bulb adoption, remarking in 2019 that they are often more expensive, not good and make him "look orange."

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 03:38:44 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 02, 2023, 11:06:58 amNo, daytime running lights (not headlights by day in general)wereillegal until 1995, when GM successfully convinced the NHTSA to allow them. That was federal vehicle law, not state laws.Every state has conditions under which headlights must be used, and when high beams are and aren’t allowed. None prohibits the use of headlights by day:https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/headlight-use-laws-for-all-50-states

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:51:36 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on April 02, 2023, 03:13:59 amNowadays you'd be a complete idiot to buy incadescent light bulbs for having light in your home. CFL and LED are so much better AND cheaper to run.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:52:22 pm
content: so if there banning light bulbs how are we meant to grow more lamps?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 04:57:25 pm
content: Quote from: Zoli on April 02, 2023, 03:48:47 pmThat’s clearly not what OP meant. They were using thepuerile meaning of “gay” to mean “lame”.

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 05:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 02, 2023, 04:57:25 pmAnother example of misinterpretation "justified by modern times"; personally, I stick to the complete meanings, and I will promote the lost meanings; welcome to my fight.I understand and accept that the language is a live, changing entity; at the same time I remember:"Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it".For our future discussions, please remember.Thank you.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:04:26 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 02, 2023, 01:05:58 pmBack in the early 90s, when daybeams first became mandatory here in Canadian cars, I was stopped for speeding driving down south to Florida and the cop said I was not allowed to have my headlights on during the daytime (unless bad weather) and I said it wasn't possible to turn off the daybeams. I believe it was in the N or S Carolina.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:26:37 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 02, 2023, 09:09:07 amYou don't see any reason because you're an engineer (or something like it anyway) and understand that distinction. Politicians on the other hand have no idea what they're doing most of the time and I wouldn't expect them to understand at all.It's all kind of moot anyway though, most new cars are already using LED lighting, old cars gradually wear out or get wrecked.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 02, 2023, 04:51:36 pmI phased out incandescent for general illumination more than 20 years ago.More recently I have brought a few of them back though as I've collected a few antique floor lamps that use the 100-200-300 mogul base 3-way bulb, something that there is currently no truly equivalent LED retrofit for. They get used relatively little so the cost is negligible and in the winter when I'm most likely to run the big bulb in the reflector floor lamps the supplemental heat is a useful effect. In certain decorative applications nothing quite matches the look of a real incandescent either.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on April 02, 2023, 01:59:07 pmThis. I made my own choice to phase out incandescent lighting many years ago in favor of first CFL and then starting around 2010 LED. At the time I was paying $40 each for the new Philips LED bulbs which was ok because I was an early adopter and LED lighting was a technology I believed in and wanted to succeed. BUT I absolutely loathe being told what to do, especially by self righteous twats and stupid politicians, and had they tried to force adoption back then I probably would have pushed back and refused. I want to make my own choices, if I choose to use inefficient products I pay for it in my energy bills. I'm ok with government subsidies to kickstart and encourage development of more efficient technologies, and I'm even ok with taxes on inefficient products, but I am not ok with mandates. There are always edge cases that nobody thinks of, antique or decorative fixtures that have a unique look, lava lamps and childrens toy ovens that rely on the heat of an incandescent lamp, oven lights that get much too hot for LED bulbs to survive, projector lamps, fixtures with precise optics, etc.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:43:09 pm
content: Quote from: Zoli on April 02, 2023, 05:31:12 pmI don't think anyone willnotremember that you are either disingenuously obtuse or utterly unable to infer context and intent.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 06:45:45 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 02, 2023, 11:06:58 amIt sounds silly, but I can see the reasoning behind it. There are around 290 million cars in the USA for example, if we take a very rough estimate and say 1% of those cars are on the road at any given time that's almost 3 million cars. A pair of 55W H4 bulbs means 110 watts to power the low beams on each car, which works out to around 330 megawatts of electricity. These numbers are probably inaccurate but even if they're high by an order of magnitude that's still a LOT of energy. While it's true that the energy required to move the cars absolutely dwarfs what is used by the lights, hundreds of megawatts is still hundreds of megawatts, that energy has to come from somewhere, it comes from the fuel used to power the cars and it pollutes just the same as a 300MW gasoline fired power plant. This is just in the USA too, I suspect we have more cars per capita than most parts of the world but probably not THAT many more than other developed nations.Does it make sense to try to regulate this with a law? Probably not, there are so many other variables, tire pressure being one of them, that have a much greater effect but when looking at the big picture it is not quite as silly as it first seems.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 07:21:31 pm
content: Nahh, that 110W is likely lost in just turning the alternator anyway.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 07:28:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 02, 2023, 07:21:31 pmYou will absolutely burn more fuel running the headlights than not. 110W is a very small amount of energy when dealing with an engine rated at 100kW or more, but it's not free and turning the alternator with no load requires almost no torque, it spins freely until you load it up. I can hear the idle sound of my car change slightly when turning the headlights on, the idle air control valve opens very slightly further to keep the RPM steady. On cars that I've driven that have electric primary radiator fans the load is significant, you can feel the engine lurch when the electric fan kicks in.Actually measuring this added consumption is probably tricky because it gets lost in the noise, but if you could maintain a constant set of circumstances I bet it would be measurable.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 07:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: abeyer on April 02, 2023, 06:43:09 pmI hopefully won't; why let random pedants live rent free in your head?

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 07:58:32 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 02, 2023, 07:28:45 pmAt city speeds, you need just lower ones of kW to move the carIt used to be something just like 2kW to keep small European car at 50 kmh, will be way higher with today's SUVsIt can easily make a few percent of consumption when running in a city

author: py-bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:06:59 pm
content: Quote from: IdahoMan on April 02, 2023, 02:29:03 amI'm turning 30 soon and I'm of the age group here in the UK which just about remembers"don't touch lightbulbsas a kid and remembers doing it anyway and is thus amazed that you can touch lightbulbs still.I will agree that cheap LEDs suck and there are some really cold ones but there were shitty bulbs before that too. Trust me everything's fine.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on April 02, 2023, 07:58:32 pmat what angle of inclination?

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:28:06 pm
content: Quote from: abeyer on April 02, 2023, 06:43:09 pmThank you, too.Edit: your comment was really helpful; from now on I will try to be more detailed on my intentions.

author: CircuitChaos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 11:05:21 pm
content: They did it in Europe too, a long time ago. I don't care as long as the bulbs are still available (and surprisingly they are, at least in Poland; just not in regular stores, but there's no problem in buying them online).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 11:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: CircuitChaos on April 02, 2023, 11:05:21 pmIncandescent bulbs were still being manufactured in Poland well after the EU ban. I don't know if they still are. We were buying those Polish bulbs in Asia.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 11:44:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 02, 2023, 07:28:45 pmLikely this is under software control. The same happens when you turn the steering wheel of a car with power steering; the idle speed will be bumped up a little. You should really think about the energy lost in driving the belt, tensioner & bearings here. That isn't nothing!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 12:45:21 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 02, 2023, 11:44:44 pmIn this case it's a 33 year old car, the only software is in the Bosch LH Jetronic ECU and the EZK ignition box. I'm intimately familiar with the hardware and know that the only input to the ECU that responds to this sort of thing is a signal that tells it when the A/C is switched on and bumps the idle up slightly. Beyond that it is simple closed loop control using the RPM signal from the EZK box which the Jetronic ECU uses to PWM the idle air control valve that bypasses the throttle body.Yes the amount of energy lost in the belt is significant, especially as it uses V-belts which are significantly less efficient than the serpentine belts that came into common use a few years later. There are all sorts of losses throughout the engine, accessories and drivetrain, that's not really the point. My only point here is that the headlights consume energy, and across millions of cars that energy adds up to a considerable amount, many megawatts even by the most conservative estimates. That energy has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the fuel burned in the engine. It is a very small amount of energy relative to all the other losses, but it's still a lot of energy. I'm not even arguing that it makes sense to legislate it, but likewise I don't think it makes sense to have the headights on when they are not needed. On a bright sunny day the increase in visibility is minimal at best, and once daytime running lights became common they stopped standing out anyway.I got curious and did some searching and came across this:https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-economy/drl-gas-consumption.htmLooks like the estimate is a penalty of 0.5% to 1.5% increased fuel consumption. You're probably not going to notice that in your wallet, but spread across hundreds of millions of people it adds up. Of course if we want to reduce fuel waste there are almost certainly bigger fish to fry, but that doesn't mean the small fish don't exist.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 12:47:04 am
content: Quote from: CircuitChaos on April 02, 2023, 11:05:21 pmI was kind of surprised that I could still get some unusual 48V indicator lamps recently. I think JKL manufactured them when I placed the order as it took several weeks before they were shipped to the distributor. A lot of oddball lamps have gotten harder to find but a surprising variety are still available.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 12:47:30 am
content: Quote from: IdahoMan on April 02, 2023, 02:29:03 amYou buy them from the same place you can buy them today.For those who are incapable of assessing any action without colouring it with their personal political biases, here are theactual rules being adoptedinstead of moronic hyperbole:https://www.regulations.gov/document/EERE-2021-BT-STD-0012-0022For those unwilling to go to the effort of research, I will quote 42 U.S. Code 6291 'Definitions':QuoteThese regulationsdo not apply to automobiles and their components.

author: IdahoMan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 01:39:14 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 03, 2023, 12:47:30 amThank you so much for addressing my assuming the worst of government, or for even imagining they might not have my best interests in mind.

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 02:10:40 am
content: I remember reading, at the time of the Nobel prize for physics going to the inventors of the blue LED, that a sizable chunk of the electric energy consumption (probably 30% but even if it was 15% it would be considerable) went into domestic and commercial lighting. Switching to LEDs, with their much higher efficiency, makes sense not only from an environmental point of view, but also from an economic point of view.The technology has evolved to the point of giving a light that is much similar to the light of an incandescent bulb, but still I have to find a dimmable LED bulb that keeps that chromatic performance at low light levels. I bought the Philips with yellow phosphors that were touted as the best dimmable bulbs but when I turn down the dimmer the light is almost... grey. So, in a few rooms I still have my 100W incandescent bulbs - of which I bought quite a few before the disappeared from the local market. But there is no point in denying that LED technology is the best solution for home (and commercial, and industrial, and street) lighting.As a matter of fact it's already a few years that I have converted those 30 - 50 grain LED light used for decoration into bottle lamps powered by 5V USB chargers. I use a constant current circuit made with two BJTs and two resistor (with a pot in case I want to regulate it finely) in the same topology as that used in the Dubai lamps, and they work just fine for ambient light and as reading lamps. The only downside is that with such low consumption (20-80 mA at 5V) the phone charger is working at a very low efficiency.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 04:41:58 am
content: Quote from: Sredni on April 03, 2023, 02:10:40 amGoogle - warm dimming led lightsEG:https://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/consumer/choose-a-bulb/warm-glow-dimmable-led-lightingA few brands now make them. They simulate the color temperature change as if you were dimming a tungsten light bulb.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 05:46:46 am
content: Quote from: IdahoMan on April 03, 2023, 01:39:14 amThank you for a silly April Fools joke. Either you intended it, or you played it on yourself by posted on April 1st. Either way, a good joke!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 06:30:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 02, 2023, 07:21:31 pmAs the saying goes: "take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves".But we Brits seem to have abon motfor every circumstance, so there is also the saying: "penny wise, pound foolish".Kind of surprised there's no money-related saying for sitting of the fence, though

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 07:14:01 am
content: Wasn't this done years ago?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 07:37:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2023, 07:14:01 amYes, and then in the circus that is US politics it was messed with, ignored, and repealed:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_lighting_energy_policy

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 12:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on April 03, 2023, 07:37:15 amAt one point a certain US president complained the reason his skin looked orange was due to LED lighting. And that was apparently a reason to take action.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 12:39:09 pm
content: I find it hilarious how people would want to still run incandescent bulbs and pay up to 4-10 times the electricity costs. Sure they have certain usage purposes, but if you stick to a reliable brand (preferably not some chinese rebranded junk) they last for ages and come in different color temps and dimmable versions.I replaced my whole house when they had a 50% off sale and brought more spares in the next sale. Costs nothing compared to the power bills. I think some uninformed people don't realize certain governments would love you to throw more money at the utility companies, with people in energy efficient households and owning solar power someone has to be suckered in to paying more than others.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 01:08:01 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on April 03, 2023, 12:39:09 pmIt's not only brand-dependent. Over the last few years I noticed that my LED lamps died quite often during the period when our mains voltage was on the low side, usually in the 200-210V range (nominal value is 230V, allowed deviation is +/- 10%). The damage was always the same: one of the leds burns out with a clearly visible black dot on the die. It was possible to repair the lamps by shorting the burned LED with a jumper wire.Later, when they changed something and voltage started to be usually in the 230..250V range with the most frequently seen value being about 240V, the lamps began to die very rarely. Those that die, do it slowly: they begin to flicker randomly etc., eventually failing. I didn't find obviously burned LEDs in those failed lamps.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 05:52:54 pm
content: There is another valid reason some prefer incandescent. In parts of the midwest USA there are very frequent thunderstorms, lightning induced power surges are very common and destructive to electronics, Incandescent is much more robust and resistant to surges. I also have to admit that the light quality of incandescent is at least slightly better than even the best LED bulbs. You just can't beat the smooth continuous spectrum, perfect 100 CRI and complete lack of flicker. Good LED bulbs are good enough for most of my purposes but if energy were free I would still choose incandescent for many of them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 06:08:28 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2023, 05:52:54 pmHuh? Incandescent lamps flicker. Its 100Hz/120Hz and doesn't go anywhere near zero, but its there. A decent LED has a really steady output.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 06:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2023, 05:52:54 pmLoL, what a bunch of twaddle. I have had many bulbs pop due to a storm or power issues, the LED stuff seems to be holding up quite well. The LED panel I have in the shed is awesome, almost no shadows from it. I have LED sidelights and brake lights on my 110 Defender and on the many motorcycles I have and they deal with the bumps really well I seem to hardly ever have an issue with them compared to the 6V bulb on the Matchless that only needs to be looked at wrong and it goes *fizz* *pop*.Will admit I was surprised by the CRI of 100 but that is making me wonder about the index in the first place. Floucesents are just horrible but I remember it was common practice to take photos we had processed in the darkroom outside so we could get a look for the colours in natural light as almost nothing compared to daylight. But even that has its moments depending on the time of day, weather, and angle of the gas ball in the sky. I am quite sensitive about the colour of light and I notice the changes more than most.I think the general idea as suggested way back in this thread is if you could convert a significant proportion of people to convert then as a population of millions that makes a significant difference.The only issue I have with LED is the noise.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 06:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2023, 05:52:54 pmThey make surge suppressors for that. They're not even that expensive.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 07:06:54 pm
content: Quote from: Zoli on April 02, 2023, 05:31:12 pmI believe the use of the term gay in the pejorative sense predates it meaning homosexual. I suppose I can see why some find it offensive, hence the moderator editing the original post, but life is too short to get upset. It should be obvious the OP wasn't gay bashing.Quote from: schmitt trigger on April 02, 2023, 03:28:36 pmBAN LED LAMPS, LETS GO BRANDON! ! ! !No seriously, there should be laws mandating minimum quality standards for LED lamps: efficiency, CRI, cooling, not too higher current density, minimum warranty, to ensure they last a decent length of time.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 07:12:24 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on April 03, 2023, 06:29:40 pmYou mean RFI? The bulbs I buy use a linear dropper IC to regulate the current. Not as efficient as a switcher, but no RFI either.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 07:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on April 03, 2023, 07:12:24 pmI prefer SMPS. It's easy to design a lamp which will work for both 120V and 240V, is more efficient and works at higher temperatures and it's not too difficult to design one which meets the EMC standards.My favourite supply is the plain old capacitive dropper. It's efficient and simple. A big problem is many manufacturers skimp on the capacitor, so they blow up.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 07:26:12 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2023, 05:52:54 pmIt's always the same. No one likes change and the old stuff is always the best - bring out every silly excuse and conspiracy around -. I have found LED's liberating, finally I can have a room light like by the sun. LED's do have good CRI if you bought them recently and it means you can have way more light. I used to feel very tired in the evenings, it was because fluorescent lamps are yellow, telling my brain to go to sleep. In a large room even with a 100W incandescent that is still not daylight it will not be good enough.Me, myself and my better half share our evenings in a living room that is not even too big with a 40W corn on the cob 5500K light, and we love it. We are perfectly happy and active right up until bed time and no the "blue light" does not stop us from sleeping!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 07:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2023, 05:52:54 pmOld fluorescent lamps with an iron ballast are tough and still beat incandescent.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 08:00:55 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 03, 2023, 07:06:54 pmI've only ever seen history/etymology that implies the opposite... would be interested if you have a source for that?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 08:11:07 pm
content: Quote from: abeyer on April 03, 2023, 08:00:55 pmNo please, STOP! or shall I just lock the thread. The idea of editing out the political crap was to not have this discussion, we all know where it ends.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 08:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 03, 2023, 07:40:08 pmYuck. Back before modern trichromatic phosphors fluorescent lamps were good for utility lighting but nobody wanted those in living areas, CRI of the CW halophosphate lamps is around 53 IIRC, and on magnetic ballasts they flicker too, although the phosphor persistence makes that flicker tolerable to me.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 08:42:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 03, 2023, 07:26:12 pmGood for you, I also have been happily using LED lighting in my home for as long as it was available, as I mentioned I was an early adopter. It's good, but the light is not as good as incandescent, it's close, and the energy savings and long lifespan are enough to make me choose it, but the lower CRI and lack of continuous spectrum, which are objectively true and easily measured traits makes colors look less vibrant, this is particularly true of reds and browns. If you don't notice or care that's fine, a lot of people don't, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid issue. 5500k is nice for my laundry room and garage but for a cozy living space it sounds horrid, to each their own.One of my pet peeves which I may occasionally be guilty of myself is this smug attitude of "it works fine for me so therefore any issues others have are just nonsense" I heard the same arguments regarding CFLs, and then once LED bulbs matured people finally admitted that CFLs were not that great. They saved energy yes, but the light they offered was inferior. it "I'm perfectly happy with this so your concerns are bs" attitude is quite frankly obnoxious.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 08:46:42 pm
content: I suppose the question is: there may be advantages of incandescent for some, but are they really worth the extra running cost?Is the law really necessary? If only a tiny minority of people use incandescent, then it's not going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things.An alternative to banning, would simply tax them so they cost the same as LED.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 08:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 03, 2023, 06:08:28 pmCome on, don't feign confusion, you know what I'm talking about, a few years ago after a similar debate came up and people insisting that the bulbs didn't flicker I connected a photodiode to a scope and demonstrated it. Out of a random selection of LED bulbs I grabbed, most of them flickered, some sharply, some at mains frequency, some at the driver frequency, some both. The flicker form an incandescent lamp is negligible, just a little 120Hz noise on the top of a smooth line, the thermal inertia of the filament provides a great deal of filtering. Next to one of the flickery LED bulbs (the filament type with no space for a proper driver are typically the worst) the difference is like night and day. Maybe I should have used the word "strobe" instead of flicker. Many LED lights strobe, some do not but many do, incandescent bulbs do not, even the cheap ones. For this reason I always buy a sample of a particular bulb so I can evaluate it for my needs before I buy more of them. As I've said many times, I have long been a big fan of LED bulbs, but I don't pretend that they are flawless, the light quality can be good, but it's not better, they simply do not have a full spectrum and even the best cannot achieve a CRI of 100, this is a fact.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 08:59:24 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 03, 2023, 08:46:42 pmFor me, no, the energy savings outweighs the handful of disadvantages, but that's a personal decision that I have no right to make for others.I have advocated since the very start a tax on less efficient lamps to subsidize more efficient types. I have a fundamental ethical problem with bans and very little tolerance for authoritarian types. I don't like being pushed around and and don't tolerate it, nor do most people, even the ones that support banning and mandating things get upset when somebody tries to force something on them. I will dig in my heals and push back in response when somebody tries if only because I absolutely refuse to validate bullying.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 09:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2023, 08:42:41 pmThe first time I held a spectroscope up to a bog standard diy store LED lamp, I was struck by how continuous the spectrum actually is. None of the spectral peaks that you get with a florescent. The phosphors are actually pretty good these days. Obviously as you go towards the cold end of thespectrumcolour temperature range, you'll get more of the LED blue fundamental showing through.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 09:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 03, 2023, 09:00:31 pmLED is far superior to fluorescent in that respect, that's certainly true.Attached are spectral plots of an ordinary incandescent lamp, a Philips remote phosphor LED which is the first really good LED lamp I encountered and the type I bought a bunch of back around 2011, and finally a 2700k trichromatic compact fluorescent. The trichromatic lamps were revolutionary in terms of efficiency and light quality compared to older types but still pretty bad compared to sunlight and incandescent. Where most fluorescent and LED sources fall short is in the red end of the spectrum. The trichromatic red is closer to red-orange than to a true blood-red, and most LEDs are deficient in the red end of the spectrum too. Many high CRI LED lamps include some true red emitters to boost this, but it comes with an efficiency penalty because the eye is less sensitive to red. It's this lack of true deep red that makes red and brown objects look a bit off.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 09:13:24 pm
content: Well obviously, by definition, you're not going to match the sunlight or tungsten filament (although it's impossible to run one hot enough to bring up the blue end to an acceptable level), but there are none of the obvious 'holes' that you might expect.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 09:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 03, 2023, 09:00:31 pmFluorescent tubes vary enormously. Most are made for decent efficiency, and compromise on colour. However, that can get you into a lot of trouble in some places. Clothing stores are a good example. Poorly chosen tubes in those places cause a flood of "it didn't look like this when I bought it" returns. An executive in one of the UK's biggest clothing retailers lost his job by screwing up a bulk order for tubes which caused mass clothing returns. For decades the best colour rendition available in a light for artists was a rather inefficient fluorescent tube called "graphic". It used different glass to get a the intensity of those 2 main mercury lines down, and a phosphor mix chosen for accuracy over efficiency. They were generally driven from an electronic ballast, to eliminate flicker.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 09:46:25 pm
content: Several things incandescents are better at:1) Surviving hot environments, such as providing illumination inside an oven. Or in old fixtures that have ZERO ventilation (the fixture was designed for the heat, but the alternative bulbs die from their own heat -- found out the hard way.)2) Being used as load resistors, with feedback, also known as a dim bulb tester.3) When being used for their secondary function, providing heat rather than light. They're rather good at it.That said, modern LED's have gotten acceptable, and I use them for lights I use regularly. Lights I use less than an hour a year I've never bothered to change. Nearly all the closets still have old-school 100W bulbs in them. Even counting electricity, they aren't cost-effective to change at this time.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 10:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2023, 08:59:24 pmYeah. I'm more mixed about that. The energy savings are dramatic. That's for sure. I have replaced lots of 50W halogen spot bulbs with 6W LED spot bulbs, and these are actually much brighter. Crazy.Now I'm not so happy with the light they provide. I have selected warm white ones, but even with those it looks clinically cold. Cold white ones are of course even worse. I haven't found anything that looked "better" for my taste/use cases so far. Or you'd resort to RGB LED bulbs to get the white tone you want but which are much less bright, and more expensive, so not that great of a deal.Then there's the flickering as you mentioned. Not all are created equal of course, but if you want zero flicker then you have to buy specific stuff, Philips makes such stuff. Still expensive. Constant current DC LED drivers.I don't miss the heat coming from halogen bulbs, but I kinda miss the light they emit.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 11:43:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2023, 08:53:22 pmThis depends on the bulb's design. I can find bulbs with a filament which has a deep modulation due to a thin spaced out long filament VS a tightly wound high wattage thick filament which holds it's temperature by means of slowly fading out when the power is cut. Also, for the faster cooling filaments, the 100hz flicker is worse in the blue part of the spectrum compared to the red.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 12:13:08 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 03, 2023, 11:43:33 pmI'm used to 230V bulbs. US ones probably flicker less. Try looking at the THD in the current waveform or power consumption of a 230V incandescent bulb, when fed with a clean voltage signal. Many are over 20%. That's a clue to much that filament is heating and cooling every half cycle of the mains, and how much the light output is modulated.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 12:13:38 am
content: All this talk about flicker, I can't hold my tongue for long:A mysterious part, of my cluster of neurological symptoms (LYME diagnosis), is a visual 'flicker', that, I discovered, is in sync with my heartbeat. Opthomologist checked for detached retina, (nope), and happens in either right or left eye.I've always assumed it was a high blood pressure thing, as perhaps pressure surges cause the light to dark oscillations. Happens with reflected sunlight also,off nearby lighter colored surfaces. Annoying at first: I went to check the lamp cord !Rate, like I said, in sync with cardiac pressure impulses, rate at 1/50 hz (that's with Bradycardia,50 BPM).West coast doctors not keen on discussing LYME disease, as a whole, for whatever reason.So, anyway, I know about distracting 'flicker', forsure, lol.- - RJ

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 02:07:52 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 03, 2023, 09:46:25 pm4) For museums and art galleries. Woe on the art director who dares to display a painting illuminated by LEDs or CFLs.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 08:29:33 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 03, 2023, 09:46:25 pmIn an oven, the bulb almost certainly helps warm up the oven anyway, so I doubt it is a major target for efficiency. Nonetheless, our new Panasonic microwave oven has an LED illuminator and I've seen ovens with these too. If the LED is kept in the 'safe-to-touch' area and well heatsinked, it should last the life of the oven. Plus, the light pattern from carbon filament LED bulbs is a bit naff (and they're not usually that bright) which can make it harder to see things in the oven.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 09:27:37 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on April 04, 2023, 12:13:38 amI think I've had some painless migraine symptoms for all my adult life.Every now and then a spot of my vision is blurred, sometimes with pretty clear stair shape, that goes to the right in few hours max.Not a long ago it started from so center that looking a left ear I couldn't see a face.Nowadays I hardly watch TV but earlier when old recordings were shown in digital format I was irritated by loose faces.Back in the CRT time 50/60 Hz lights/picture was also more than a bit disturbing.Seeing is a complex thing.They also say that below hearing frequency sound can create ghosts.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 09:31:52 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on April 04, 2023, 12:13:38 amErr sorry, I'm probably being dense but I don't follow the maths.The light is going to be flickering at (I thought the US was 60Hz, but anyway) the flicker rate is going to be 20 / 16.67ms (full cycle) or, more likely, 10 / 8.33ms (half cycle), 100 / 120 flickersper second.You are talking about you heart rate being 50 beatsper minute. Are you saying that your heart beat is synchronised accurately to within 10 / 8.33 milliseconds?Even the fastest QRS portion of the heart cycle is in the order of 100ms.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 11:02:08 am
content: Quote from: Nusa onYesterdayat 09:46:25 pm

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 11:26:45 am
content: Gyro:Sorry to be unclear. My experiences aren't at the electrical rate, probably would have appearance of flicker even with a DC lamp...(or natural sunlit room).It's as if each cardiac pressure pulse causes a slight momentary decrease in ambient light in the room.So that's exactly in sync with 50 BPM heart rate, which is closer to 1.2 seconds elapsed.Yeah, might be classed in migraine-like exp.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 12:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on April 04, 2023, 02:07:52 amYet conservators like that LEDs dont require filtering to remove UV and IRhttps://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/technical-bulletins/led-lighting-museums.htmlHigh CRI LEDs are cheap and commonplace, with only a small hit to efficiency.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 05:50:00 pm
content: looks like US is becoming like a part of Europe and its environmentalists policygo figure! former first ??men & the former 44th is in the driver's seat of the geriatric 46th POTUSas the 45th go,s to court.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 05:55:30 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on April 04, 2023, 02:07:52 amThe thing is, the best LEDs are so good that you’ve almost certainly seen them and simply assumed they were incandescent.As Someone said, they have significant advantages for conservation. Many people don’t know that there are two kinds of halogen reflector bulbs, one of which was commonly used in museums and the like. One has fully-metalized reflectors that reflect everything, including IR radiation. This means they can’t be pointed at objects that are heat-sensitive, but the bulbs don’t need any special considerations for the lamp fixture. The other type uses a dichroic reflector, which reflects the visible light but allows the IR to pass through. This dramatically reduces the heat radiated together with the visible light, but places special requirements on any enclosed fixtures, since they must be capable of handling the heat. For example, this may preclude the use in recessed fixtures.LED doesn’t have those drawbacks: they run very cool (compared to incandescent and halogen) and IR-free, both in the fixture and at the object.Additionally, they make specially tuned LEDs for specific applications. For example, for grocery stores, they have LEDs with spectra optimized for meats, others for vegetables, another for bread, etc. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they make museum LEDs optimized for specific types of objects.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 06:11:11 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 03, 2023, 09:33:13 pmThere were many, and the standard for color-accurate graphic design is the so-called D50 light. (Daylight, 5000K.) I haven’t been involved in the graphic arts for a long time, but I assume these will eventually be implemented with LEDs, if they haven’t been already. The fluorescent tubes are still available though.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 07:28:55 pm
content: This thread is reminiscent of the vacuum tube vs solid-state argument, but now it's about light instead of sound.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 07:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on April 04, 2023, 05:50:00 pmLeaving aside your irrelevant US political comments... I would have thought that, with your weather switching to shit, increasing wildfires etc, you would want the whole world to have an environmentalist policy!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2023, 07:49:13 pm
content: You forgot to mention: the oceans boiling!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:55:13 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 04, 2023, 07:49:13 pmWell the ocean's temperature is rising, an scientists admit that it is probably absorbing more heat than they initially thought. I just despair at the mass stupidity and hysteria over everything. We live on a dynamic planet, things change, we are in a small snapshot of it's history and our mere existence and evolution is a statistical fluke, let's not push our luck.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 10:24:38 am
content: Yes, I'm not sure if it was a David Attenborough*quote... 'No need to worry about the Earth, it will be just fine - It's the Human race that needs to worry'.Edit:*Actually, I think it was Prof Iain Stewart.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 12:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 07, 2023, 10:24:38 amQuite, I mean sets not forget that the first organisms on earth did not breath oxygen, then for some random reason they started producing it themselves and it was poisonous to them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 03:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 07, 2023, 10:24:38 amI think it was originally George Carlin, but the wording was a little more aggressive.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 05:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 07, 2023, 03:00:51 pmI've independently said it many times to try and explain to people that we are not chasing some abstract goal that they must pay for against their will. This is about our survival. We rely on a particular range of habitats, if they change, as adaptable as we may be we won't cope, or least most of us won't which is the scarier option.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 06:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 07, 2023, 05:34:02 pmThere are people who have this religious notion that anything we do to change the planet is bad. I guess because this world that incessantly wants to kill you until you protect yourself from its excesses is seen as some kind of natural perfection we can only harm. If you look at things from a human centric point of view, far more people die from excessive cold than excessive heat. So, is a modicum of global warming a good or a bad thing? Species are currently dying off at a fairly rapid pace, but increased CO2 in the atmosphere appears to be increasing the world's plant bio-mass. So, there more living stuff around, but of a narrower range of species. Is that a good or a bad thing?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 06:07:24 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 04, 2023, 12:13:08 amIt's true, they are different. 120V bulbs have shorter, thicker filaments that are significantly more efficient due to reduced heat losses, and 60Hz power is 20% higher frequency. When I visited the UK the flicker of discharge lamps was immediately obvious, it took a few days to get used to it. A 120V incandescent lamp, at least of the sort used for general illumination has no perceptible flicker. The one exception is some halogen lamps that had a built in diode so they ran on half wave DC. I think it was to make the filament smaller and thicker to improve optics and raise efficiency.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 06:16:54 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 04, 2023, 07:35:06 pmThe thing is, the most optimistic data I've seen suggests that with even the most drastic changes to our behavior the situation is essentially hopeless, the damage has already been done and we are around a century too late to do anything about it. I'm all in favor of clean air and water and such, but when it comes to climate change it's an exercise in futility to prevent it. Rather than taking drastic action in hopes of accomplishing something that can't be done, we would be better off putting that effort into mitigating the effects and adapting to deal with them. The climate has changed dramatically over the history of the planet, prior to humans it occurred more slowly and due to natural events, but the changes still occurred. The earth will be fine, it will survive long after we are extinct, and I am pretty confident that at some point, whether in my lifetime or not, there will be a major war or wars that are catastrophic and make human caused climate change the least of anyone's concerns.As if that wasn't all enough, Europe and the USA could go completely "green" and other places like China, India, Russia, etc will pick up the slack. If we manage to phase out fossil fuels completely, other places will keep using them until we run out. Already a lot of the environmental restrictions have just shifted pollution to China, which I suppose is better for us but not quite the fix we like to think it is.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 06:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 07, 2023, 06:01:14 pmPutting it like that does not make you sound capable of offering anything of value to the debate. People die of more things than the hot or the cold, they die of other things too. Global warming means more than just, we get hotter, it is more accurately called climate change. And yes this is a problem. When your crops don't yield properly because the weather this year was too different to what the plants are used to you have a problem for example.I got UK runner beans to grow in southern Italy, the first year a total of 3 plants survived with intensive nursing and I got 3 or 6 pods. I ate none of them, I persevered replanting last years seeds and after a decade I had them yielding a small crop "for fun" that provided a couple of meals when grown just like any other plant in the local clay soil rather than the compost in pots with lots of water that they had the first year. Had my life depended on it I would be dead.Every year we have yet hotter temperatures, globally. Now back in the UK I start to see and hear of temperatures in the UK typical of southern Italy when I lived there 20 years ago, no doubt temperatures in southern Italy are hotter than before.Not even in the last hottest day ever but the year before that I nearly collapsed due to the heat. It's easier to heat yourself up than it is to cool yourself down, fortunately I could jump into my car and run the air conditioning. - but each to their own crazy assumptions/justifications or religious convictions.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 06:28:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 07, 2023, 06:16:54 pmYou almost made the point but then lost it. If as you say the problem started long ago and we should just adapt, then how much adaption do we go through? technologically we will have limits, naturally it will become a matter of cost that no one wants to pay. If we need to adapt to deal with the last 100 years of doing nothing then surely we need to also stop doing whatever causes the problem, soon it will be a 110 year old problem, then a 120 year old problem and so forth. At some point the adaption will be too costly or there are no solutions. I mean what do you do, shoot yourself in the foot and say, It's OK, I have a bandage, put that on then shoot yourself in the foot again?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 06:45:38 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 07, 2023, 06:01:14 pmThis is true.Humans will be fine. We live all over the planet from deserts and tundra to rainforests. Higher global temperatures, correlate with more humans not fewer. It's true, if temperatures rise, there will be some parts of the planet which become uninhabitable i.e. due to rises in sea level, but these will be more than outweighed by the areas of tundra and desert (warmer oceans mean more precipitation, not less) which will become suitable for agriculture.I'm all for conservation and not polluting the planet, but the scare stories are bogus. People want power and manufacturing crises, is a great opportunity to grab more. The last three years has taught me to be very sceptical of "the science" because it's been we've been manipulated and lied to so much by the authorities and mainstream media. Political activism has infected many academic institutions it's difficult to know fact from fiction. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who thinks anthropogenic climate change is a conspiracy theory, but it's not as bad as the authorities lead is to believe.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 06:49:18 pm
content: The elephant in the room is that there are just far too many of the problem species on the planet.That species exponential population increase became long term unsustainable many centuries ago. The process is accelerating, and an opportunity for an effective natural cull has just been missed...Yeah, the planet will be OK ...

author: IdahoMan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 06:52:27 pm
content: Well, this Thread went off track.Want to get back to: How-to-make-incandescent-bulbs-at-home?**Either from scratch, or by finding/retrofitting other sources of incandescent bulbs.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:07:27 pm
content: Making incandescent lamps ... perhaps just stockpile them while you have the chance... unless, you need a new hobby.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on April 07, 2023, 07:07:27 pmThat's what I did in 2013 when the government here announced the phase out of 100W incandescents for 2014.Most of them are still in their original boxes in my basement.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: IdahoMan on April 07, 2023, 06:52:27 pmYou don't. Somehow, you'll survive.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:26:03 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on April 07, 2023, 07:19:20 pm

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:27:14 pm
content: Quote from: IdahoMan on April 07, 2023, 06:52:27 pmMaking incandescent bulbs in small numbers is pretty easy. You won't achieve the low cost of high volume manufacture, but it doesn't take any advanced processes or expensive equipment. Just basic glass blowing, some tungsten wire and a tank of inert gas. You can find instructions for achieving gas tight seals around the leadout wires in a number of places.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 07, 2023, 06:45:38 pmYou mention "the science" once and you did not mean actual science. What the last 3 years taught us is that we cannot trust "the authorities" or "main stream media", well we sort of knew that already. It was also clear that over the last 3 years there was a battle of politicians wanting the science to say what they wanted it to while the scientists tried to keep their jobs. Scientists don't actually make the decisions, politicians do on their advice. Have you ever tried advising a non technical senior to do something they don't really want to do or that will cost a lot for their department or whatever? that was the story of my last job and even in this current job I can only advise, it is for the salesmen to decide what they want even if it is flying unicorns.The next problem you have is people, they are just dumb stupid people that are under the illusion that scientists are some sort of all seeing beings and that they should have known anything that comes to light with "hindsight".Most of the reasons for not pursuing a policy are about the abstract concept of economics. That system that allows people with money to stay that way and those without to just survive without and nothing must change or those that don't want to pay have to and those that can't afford it get to have it. It's job is not to solve any other problem other than maintain the status quo and keep the people who can make some real noise happy. This is generally the big decider behind any "political" decision, nothing to do with actual science.There are plenty of things we can do differently, just differently, but people don't want to, people don't like change. People still think that electric cars are slow...... Is there a reason in 2023 why people should believe such a fallacy other than - because they want to because it justifies their resistance to change- ? I'm not asking them to buy one, just to stop being ignorant.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 07, 2023, 06:45:38 pmAs soon as someone says "the science" its highly unlikely anything further that they say will be of any value. Science is a process, not a thing. Follow the process and you understand more. Follow "the science" and you are being manipulated.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: IdahoMan on April 07, 2023, 06:52:27 pmFrom your OP, your question (without the political crap) was...QuoteWe already established from actually reading the government document (Reply #50) that it has absolutely nothing to do with vehicle lights.Case solved.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:49:34 pm
content: Seems like everyone has forgotten the original post was written on April 1st.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 07:56:25 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 07, 2023, 07:49:34 pmsome jokes just are not jokes, you can't just laugh at stupid these days, as stupid becomes more dangerous. Democracy rules that the majority are right. I think it's fairly well established that the majority are stupid. I don't want my life run by people less intelligent than myself.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 08:03:37 pm
content: I think the timing on April 1st is coincidental this time (not every thread on April 1st is a hoax or joke).Major bulb retailers like 1000bulbs.com have categories for items that will be banned effective June 2023.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 09:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on April 07, 2023, 06:49:18 pmYou're mistaken. It's not possible to extrapolate current trends so far into the future.As countries become more technologically advanced, birth rates fall, quite often to the point when the population declines, rather than grows. It has happened in the West and in rich Asian countries such as Japan and now China. If the rest of the world is allowed to catch up, the same will happen there too. Policies which severely restrict economic growth in the West will have a knock effect on poorer countries with high birth rates, retarding growth there and putting off any fall in birth rate into the future.Quote from: Simon on April 07, 2023, 07:27:40 pmI used the term "the science" because it's what politicians have said to justify authoritarian policies in the past.Science should involve questioning everything. The problem is it's no longer possible to do that. Plenty of scientists have tried to warn the government their draconian policies would do more harm than good, yet were subject to censorship. Governments put pressure on social media companies to censor things they felt were harmful, under the guise of suppressing misinformation. Politics is no longer separate from science. Universities have become breeding grounds for political activism. Funding is denied to research because it might yield "inconvenient" results.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 09:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 07, 2023, 09:00:52 pmWhen has thisnotbeen the case? I mean, back when politics and religion were one and the same, they literally murdered, banished, or imprisoned scientists under the guise of “heresy”.Quote from: Zero999 on April 07, 2023, 09:00:52 pmAside from the fact that political activism has always been one aspect of academia, since both academia and politics exist in the same universe, I don’t think there’s actually any evidence to support claims of this being more so now than in the past (as the wording “have become” implies). The only thing I see as having changed is that now a certain segment of the population has their knickers in a twist about it, having been whipped to a froth by disingenuous “news”casters and social media fearmongers.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 09:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 07, 2023, 07:36:01 pmYep. Exactly.Well, politicians saying "science" in a sentence: that's almost a guarantee they are yanking your chain. They use it as the new higher authority, just like they used religion when religion still had considerable power. It's never about being closer to provable facts, it's always about power.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 09:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 07, 2023, 09:00:52 pmPopulation *growth* is declining in many countries, even in Africa, with some latency. In a few decades from now, it won't be nearly what it is now, that's almost a guarantee.And yes, the planet will be OK. It has survived much worse. The question is about us, not about the planet. Are we going to be OK in a few centuries from now? I have no clue.But is the planet going to be OK? That's for sure. The planet doesn't care about our shit.We keep saying "the planet" as if to avoid explicitely saying that all we care about is actually us, and it hasn't changed, it's just gotten much worse. We only care about our fricking destiny.Let's leave "the planet" alone and start being honest. It has never been about anything else than us, and is unlikely to ever be about anything else until it's too late for us.Claming we care and are going to save "the planet" is just bullshit. We are just trying to save ourselves, and not all of us either.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 09:53:05 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 07, 2023, 09:38:57 pmIts pretty much a guarantee, if you look at examples like China. Their birth rate didn't fall by a change in culture. as in most countries. It was enforced. Many people thought that when the brakes were turned off there would be a pent up demand for parenthood. It hasn't happened. The birth rate there continues to fall, even though the government now encourages larger families. A generation of people who grew up as the only child doesn't seem to see a large family as normal any more. My wife and I have no siblings. We have two children, which is a little below replacement, and it feels like we have a substantial family.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 07:55:51 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 07, 2023, 09:00:52 pmQuite, you don't mean real science but the claim that a politicians whim is now justified because they claim it is science when it is a cherry picked bunch of facts with a lot of caveats.In the UK Chris Whitty was rather obviously on a leash and biting his lip, meanwhile people were selling mugs with the slogan that he should be prime minister instead. Of course stupid dogs will always follow the stupid pack they signed up to no matter where it's headed.The other thing to remember is that a lot of what we see as the new bad is just the same old given more exposure due to the ease of communication and publishing these days. This of itself has generated a rise in people taking stupid decisions because they fear the potential bad exposure.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 09:40:02 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 08, 2023, 07:55:51 amI think this is linked to why people have also become sceptical about "Experts". Let us just wheel out someone who clearly doesn't see daylight often, get them to ask "Next slide please" every few seconds and hopefully people will assume they have all the answers.During the pandemic, there were quite a few reporters with little else to do other than trying and second guess a lot of the info coming from 10 downing street. This led to lots of experts arguing over stuff much like how people here can argue over any electrical issue, both are wrong and right but it all depends on how deep into the ppb you are willing to go. Social media was full of armchair experts and keyboard warriors and the odd troll or two and information was so hacked up or nit picked over that nothing made much sense.Going back to the OP thing, if the government doesn't try to encourage people to swap over no one will and eventually there will be some smug person telling them they should have done something earlier. I do find it funny that Americans get so worked up when they are told they can't do something but then are happy to be a nation going back in time when it comes to other subjects which would open a can of politics so I won't mention it.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 12:34:23 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 07, 2023, 09:38:57 pm

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 12:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 07, 2023, 09:38:57 pmI'm far more worried about direct threats to humans, posed by other humans such as war and bad policies imposed on us by our leaders, than our unintentional impact on the environment, making the world uninhabitable for humans. The fact is rich countries have managed to minimise their environmental impact quite well. Again policies which limit economic growth, will be worse for the environment in the long run because they will keep people poor.Quote from: tooki on April 07, 2023, 09:27:45 pmThe difference is now it's skewed to one side of the political spectrum. Academic freedom in countries such as the US and UK has been in severe decline over the last few years. It's a worldwide problem, but the decline in the previously most free countries is the most concerning aspect of this trend.https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/significant-declines-us-and-uk-academic-freedom-ranking

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 01:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on April 08, 2023, 12:34:23 pmBut it's not about your lighting. It's about your lighting.. and tens of millions of others.Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 01:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 08, 2023, 01:21:05 pmThe age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 01:40:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 08, 2023, 01:25:17 pmI think you overestimate the intelligence of the vast majority.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 01:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 08, 2023, 01:40:12 pmBut the majority of people are moving away from incandescent lighting anyway.There's no point in these silly authoritarian laws.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 02:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 08, 2023, 01:40:12 pmI think you overestimate your own intelligence. Especially your ability to spot all the consequences of your actions ahead of time. There's a reason free markets work best. They may suck in many ways, but they are way ahead of some idiot who thinks they know best.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 02:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 08, 2023, 01:21:05 pmI'm not being stuborn, I embraced LED lighting, and have been involved in the development of its use. Myhomeuseage from non renewable energy is as low or lower than yours I guarantee: (thats why I posted that I was unconcerned about the cost), in any case usage is never above 3.5kW/day average. I just prefer incandescent lighting for work and reading, if I find that changes then happy days. I've done my bit without the forcible prompting of politicians or tree huggers.The point is it is legislative control by know nothings who want to be popular with the noisy mindless minorities: it would happen even if it were not 'necessary'. Having power over others lives is how these Ar5ehole5 get thier rocks off.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 04:05:30 pm
content: QuoteUnfortunately I am with Monkeh on this. LEDs cost a lot more than incandescent, and a significant portion of the population will buy on price. Particularly if they try an LED and find it far too blue compared to what they are used to. Yes, the electricity bill should be lower, but that's months away and associating this particular lamp with some arbitrary figure in the bill isn't going to happen. At best, if they figure the light is costing them, the user will try not to have the lights on for so long.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 06:06:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 08, 2023, 02:20:00 pmCharming. Thank you for reducing the discussion on the long-term planning of agencies whose job is to regulate markets to personal attacks on someone uninvolved in their decision making.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 07:39:51 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 08, 2023, 06:06:56 pmI didn't make a personal attack. I didn't say I was smarter than you, or anyone else was smarter than you. What I said is true of you, or me, or anyone else. Nobody has a clue how to long term plan any major aspect of society. Every time they try it doesn't take long before a lot of blood gets spilled.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 07:43:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 08, 2023, 07:39:51 pmI haven't seen the great luminaire wars of Europe begin thus far, have you?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 07:51:23 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 08, 2023, 07:43:50 pmFor someone who attacked the intelligence of the public, you aren't sounding very bright yourself. Once people with an authoritarian mindset find they can get away with pushing the public around in minor ways they keep upping their game, until someone pushes back. The longer that takes the more destruction happens before they do.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 08:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 08, 2023, 07:51:23 pmYep, and that is actually true at all levels, even in your personal/professional relationships. I'd say it may just be down to entropy in the end, or something like that.If you have a "control freak" around, that is usually also exactly what will happen. They'll keep pushing and the longer you let them push, the nastier it gets. If you do nothing, it can end up pretty badly.I don't think there's any way around it. It's just basic physics at play, whether we like it or not.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 09:51:29 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 08, 2023, 02:20:00 pmFree markets don't work at all! And mainly due to the vast majority of the people not having all the knowledge required to make the best decissions in today's complex world. Let alone, the lesser educated part of the population.So yes, decissions need to be made for the public with a long term plan in mind. Even though those plans might need adjustments along the way. Or may even seem unlogical to some.History is riddled with bans and requirements that save lives every day. Think about airbags, seatbelts, anti-skid, unleaded fuel, emission limits on cars. All things that don't make a car better in any way to get from A to B, but these government mandated requirements are a huge improvement for the society in the big picture.Especially big companies have the empathy level of a 4 year old kid:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 10:21:46 pm
content: The ban will change nothing, just like it changed nothing in the EU."Incandescent light bulb for industrial use, not suitable for home use"Seems plenty suitable to me/

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 10:47:08 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 08, 2023, 01:40:12 pmTrue, but you in turn are probably overestimating the intelligence of the people "in charge".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 11:42:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 08, 2023, 09:51:29 pmFree markets aren't perfect, but nothing is. The best approximations to free markets have worked better than anything else the human race has tried.Quote from: nctnico on April 08, 2023, 09:51:29 pmHistory is just as riddled with bans and requirements that utterly failed. Things like drink driving. It was illegal for decades, with little effect. It was a shift in social norms that eventually got that under control. I didn't suggest we don't need regulation, but they are always risky. Unbalanced regulations, and ones that lead to massive gaming of the system, have been very destructive. Regulations like "all cars must have seat belts that meet these standards" can be a very free market thing to introduce, if done with care. If everyone has to do it, and the details of the rules are not twisted in one group's favour, it can actually help level the competitive playing field.Quote from: nctnico on April 08, 2023, 09:51:29 pmThat's the very reason we need free markets. The only thing we've found to keep people like that reasonably honest has been to make them compete. They don't like that, so they try their best to form cartels, and other twisted organisations, that limit competition and let them get back to their 4 year old activities. Governments and corporations are very similar in this regard. None of them should be trusted too much. My God, they are run by people. What fool trusts those creeps.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 11:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 08, 2023, 12:40:49 pmI don’t think theskewhas moved at all. Again, look at the history of politics and activism in academia and it’s always been on the left, often far left (far more left than today, in many cases). The loss of academic freedom thing is orthogonal to this — that change (which I consider to be negative) can happenwithoutany change in the typical political slant. (Which, frankly, is just innate in education anyway, since secular academia is all about studying objective reality: as they say, “reality has a liberal bias”.)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 11:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 08, 2023, 11:43:43 pmReality seems to have a classically liberal bias. Look at places like the UK in the industrial revolution, or Japan, Singapore, Korea, or Taiwan in the late 20th century. I only hear people who equate liberal with left say "reality has a liberal bias" when they are a leftist who has lost all touch with reality.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2023, 12:12:33 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 08, 2023, 11:52:09 pmThe phrase was originated by Stephen Colbert in 2006, so with 100% certainty he meant it to mean “liberal” in the contemporary American sense, not classical liberalism.It stems from the fact that weconsistentlyfind right-leaning media to report more falsehoods than left-leaning media. (Neither side is perfect. One is just consistently worse.)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2023, 06:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 08, 2023, 01:56:05 pmI never see any in the shops, I really wonder why they don't sell them and why people don't buy them despite them not being readily available. Given that incandescent heaters that happen to put out a bit of light are cheaper surely the mindless masses that work on what's cheapest is best would be buying them right? I gave up trying to work out what the law actually is as figuring out fact from conspiracy is more work than I have effort for considering I am picky about my LED bulbs anyway. I certainly cannot put a 400W heater in a standard fitting like I can put a 40W LED

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2023, 06:43:07 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 08, 2023, 12:40:49 pmRich countries make a big deal of the reduction in their fossil fuel consumption. People are switching to electric cars now on cost, not on technology preference while plenty will themselves to believe that electric is not as good "because"....As for everything else we are happily offshoring our footprint. We don't make very much in rich nations, we import it so our emissions have simply migrated. Yes lots will argue that this is not their problem, well to every sensible reasoning their will be hundreds of stupid retorts. Let me see, has international trade gone down or up over the last few decades? Who are we trading with and how do they make our junk? yes junk. If a throwaway society is how you want to fuel economic growth then lets hope those developing nations are getting their faster than they are churning through the natural resources or by the time their are "rich enough to care" they will only be caring because they have to anyway.In a capitalist system the majority will become wealthy enough at a much slower pace than the minority. when most of what we pay for our imported goods is for the fuel to burn the ships across the ocean and to the importers reselling the goods in our countries, how fast is this helping the majority of the population in those countries be wealthy enough to care?The economic system is about maintaining the status quo. That is why most politicians are only their because they kept the rich dudes happy, the system you think hold so much promise is designed to not let change happen by it's very nature.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2023, 11:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 09, 2023, 06:43:07 pmPeter Thiel says this in all his public talks (most recently one at the Oxford Union called "Anti-Anti-Anti-Anti-Classical Liberalism"). The pace of actual advancement in the hard sciences has stagnated—at least in part—because the people in control are afraid of disruptive change.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2023, 08:30:26 am
content: Quote from: tooki on April 07, 2023, 09:27:45 pmNot under the guise of heresy but for heresy. And they understood the risk of making themselves look like fools and backed off quickly.Then natural sciences became free of political bullshit for a few centuries, because people saw that there is "something" to it and that meaningful progress is being made which results in undeniable and objective technological development. Even the Vatican runs their own astronomical observatory.Then somebody invented the concept of "human science", which is an antithesis of both "human" and of "science", and the rest is history.Quote from: tooki on April 07, 2023, 09:27:45 pmPolitical activism was not the motivation of Galileo, Newton, Faraday, Pasteur, Darwin, you name them.Today actual science happens in commercial R&D labs while public academia degenerated into something like the lowest chamber of the parliament.Quote from: tooki on April 08, 2023, 11:43:43 pmOK, but "the left" apparently stands for such a diversity of ideas as eugenics, scientific racism, cure-all lobotomy, nuclear weapons research, gay therapy, cure-all gender affirmation, critical race theory, neolysenkoism, etc. - it's hard to even define what "the left" really isFurther conflating "the left" with liberalism isn't helpful either.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2023, 09:57:23 pm
content: Went to Home Depot this weekend. The only incandescent bulbs they had in stock were 40W and 11W "appliance" bulbs. These are intended for use in ovens, and, hence, can't be replaced by LED bulbs.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2023, 11:24:42 pm
content: Last time I was at Home Depot, they did have the specialty incandescents....large 200W and 300W bulbs on standard bases. I don't need those, but I was amused.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 06:52:25 am
content: those are for heat lamps... whats so amusing about that

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 03:33:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 11, 2023, 06:52:25 amNo, 250W reflector heat lamps were also on the shelf, I can tell the difference.Here's what I'm referring to:https://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Electric-300-Watt-High-Lumen-Clear-PS25-Medium-E26-Soft-White-2700K-Utility-Incandescent-Light-Bulb-1-Bulb-300M-HDRP/312557048

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 08:28:03 pm
content: Looking at the Home Depot website, I found a good collection of that brand (in the usual range of wattage) in what appear to be old-fashioned (non-halogen) incandescent bulbs for "utility" purposes, as opposed to "general service lamps" to be banned by existing regulations.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:06:16 pm
content: Apparently Home Depot has banned access in some countries. Or maybe it's just me.Quote(and yes this is what I get using ahttpsaddress, so not the problem here.)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:12:08 pm
content: I couldn't find anything about blocking access to the website, but under shipping they state:"We are not able to ship to international destinations, PO Boxes, APO/FPO/DPO addresses at this time."Googling gives alternative shipping routes through third parties, but not very useful if they block you from the website.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on April 11, 2023, 08:28:03 pmThe utility option makes sense. It would take a major technological change for putting a non-incandescent lamp in a cupboard, where its turned on for just a a minute or two a day, to become either ecologically or economically superior to an incandescent one.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 11, 2023, 09:06:16 pmWhy comply with GDPR when you can just block the rest of the world?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:30:55 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 11, 2023, 09:24:21 pmWhy not just block the rest of the world? Home Depot is a US retail chain of big box stores very similar to B&Q, they don't sell internationally so I can see their rationale for just blocking anywhere with regulations that would require extra effort to comply with. They're not blocking anyone that is buying their products. Blocking is the path of least resistance.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:35:31 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 11, 2023, 09:30:55 pmSo defensive. I actually agree, and didn't say otherwise, however:I can't visit their website using my phone when in the US. Nor can I look at anything on their website to discuss with or advise anyone in the US. But hey, the US exists in a nice safe vacuum and international communication just doesn't happen, right?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 11, 2023, 09:24:21 pmUS retailers have been doing this well before GDPR

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on April 11, 2023, 09:40:33 pmNever really had a problem with it prior. Now you can't even get the news.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 09:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 11, 2023, 09:30:55 pmI find that approach a bit offensive, but I don't fully blame - it's understandable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 10:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 11, 2023, 09:56:27 pmWell it's not my decision, I'm just saying I can see why they do it. I work in software, I know how the meetings go. Somebody brings up some new thing we have to comply with, everyone is busy, someone says "how about we just do xyz", so there is some back and forth and we decide to do xyz because it's the easiest solution that will protect the company while costing as few resources as possible. If they thought another solution would be more profitable they'd do that instead. It's not malice, they're just looking to spend the least amount necessary in order to not get sued.

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 11:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 11, 2023, 09:30:55 pmThere are a lot of edge cases. It may sound like the path of least resistance on the surface, but geofencing is pretty fraught in general, and you probably won't hear about the majority of cases where it pushes a paying customer somewhere else. They may not care about the small percentage of customers this affects, but I still think it is generally a bad idea to block people without any way to measure how it might be affecting the business or any recourse for the end user, especially when they don't seem to gain anything by doing it.If Home Depot doesn't operate in and won't ship to addresses in the EU I don't see why they would care about the GDPR or other regulations that have no jurisdiction over their operations. It seemseven easierto just ignore what people in irrelevant (to your operation) places are regulating.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 11:53:50 pm
content: Quote from: ve7xen on April 11, 2023, 11:50:00 pmI basically agree, but its a bit weird to respond Access Denied. It seems a bit hostile to people who may at some point be in the US, and be potential customers. They could have a page which politely says "We don't operate in your locality", and leave it at that.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2023, 12:10:37 am
content: Quote from: ve7xen on April 11, 2023, 11:50:00 pmI don't know anything about the GDPR, how does it apply to foreign entities? If for example someone in the EU made an account with Home Depot, could HD then be liable for some sort of damages for not complying with that law? It's entirely possible that the people involved don't even understand the law,

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2023, 12:17:36 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 12, 2023, 12:10:37 amIf the law only affects countries they don't sell to, why would they spend a cent even trying to understand that law? They probably do business with suppliers in Europe. They only need to ensure they conduct that side of their business according to the relevant laws.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2023, 07:05:00 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 11, 2023, 09:24:21 pmBut are they blocking the rest of the world or just the EUSSR?I have surely seen foreign websites which do the latter and spell it out explicitly on the error page.Quote from: ve7xen on April 11, 2023, 11:50:00 pmI suppose at least some of those companies that ban EU visitors may simply not want to burn bridges. Hiding in foreign jurisdiction only works until maybe one day you want to open an office in the "irrelevant place" and you suddenly get slapped for 10 years of violations.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2023, 07:12:42 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 11, 2023, 09:06:16 pmNo, not just you. It’s been blocked fromSwitzerland for years, too. I guess it’s just a broad geographic block.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2023, 07:14:37 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 11, 2023, 11:53:50 pmI’ve always assumed that this type of ISP- or CDN-level blocking is primarily to prevent DDOS attacks.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2023, 08:33:00 am
content: Quote from: tooki on April 12, 2023, 07:14:37 amI would take a guess that it's done so that they can prove that there is absolutely no GDPR relevant information being collected. If they're not going to make any money from EU customers, they don't want to deal with their data. It's knee jerk, but then GDPR isn't exactly well designed legislation anyway (even if it is well intentioned.)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2023, 08:39:48 am
content: Ban ? What ban ? FJB !!!My incand hoards lately ...

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2023, 08:45:40 am
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on April 02, 2023, 08:27:41 amIt's often not too hard to spot the Fox stuff. Was watching a Youtube woodworking video a few months ago and the guy, who had to date only ever talked about woodworking in his videos, suddenly made some bizarre, couldn't-possibly-be-true claim about... well, I don't want to go down a political rathole over details but it was some "muh freedumbs" piece of crazy I thought could only have come from Fox. Quick google and, sure enough...In terms of LED lighting, we've had this in the house for at least ten years now and I'd never go back to those ghastly room-heaters with a little light as a side-effect that we used to have. I checked the LED output once with a spectrometer and it was perfect daylight-balanced, the exact same spectrum you'd get from sunlight, with no flicker.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2023, 03:20:20 am
content: I wish more LED bulbs had a perfect spectrum with no flicker. It would also be nice if somebody would perfect one that does the same cozy warm shift as incandescent. Some at least attempt but only get it about 70%. I have a bunch of Philips Hue RGB bulbs and those do a pretty good job but the red is an orange-red rather than a true deep red so yellow is kind of a sickly greenish. As I've said before, LED bulbs have enough advantages that I use them pretty much exclusively for general illumination but if energy were free I'd go back to incandescent for many of my lights. The heat is beneficial around 75% of the year here, my gas furnace is a more efficient way to heat but again if energy were free that wouldn't matter.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2023, 05:57:48 am
content: The problem is that people go out and buy the cheapest lights they can find off Aliexpress and then wonder why they're getting blue-tinted flickering. I must admit I was surprised by these ones given how much junk is out there, but they've got good-quality diffusers to get an even colour spectrum and don't flicker at all. They've also got a massive heatsink that's bigger than the entire rest of the luminaire, good-quality electronics... and a price to match.Another problem with many cheap LED lights is that you're getting the raw LED output, or close to it, so they can be advertised as 6.023e23 lumens rather than sacrificing a small amount of output to get better-quality lighting. And then throw in some Gluxon capacitors... and the metal cap on the end is fine for a heatsink, right?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2023, 08:52:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 13, 2023, 03:20:20 amThey exist, using neutral white and very warm white LEDs, blending as needed. Very different (superior) effect than RGB bulbs.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2023, 09:23:52 am
content: Quote from: tooki on April 13, 2023, 08:52:26 amI have a Philips dimmable LED bulb that does that, and it works very well indeed. It even fades out like an incandescent when the mains is turned off, though a tad quicker. I used to have a dimmable CFL but it was very weird. It would only 'start' at about 50% brightness and then you could run it down to around 10%. Made for a clunky interface so wouldn't recommend it.I now have some Ikea TRADFRI smart bulbs that have a cool white and warm white LED in them in addition to the RGB element, so they can produce cool and warm white at high brightnesses and still offer the gimmick of colour mode (kinda fun for Halloween/Xmas time).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2023, 08:07:29 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 13, 2023, 08:52:26 amCan you point us to some references? At a reasonable price point?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2023, 08:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 13, 2023, 08:07:29 pmRemote control dimmable:https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/tradfri-led-bulb-b22-1055-lumen-smart-wireless-dimmable-white-spectrum-globe-70517641/TRIAC dimmable:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philips-Classic-WarmGlow-Dimmable-Filament/dp/B073FMGQ4XI guess you can find comparable examples in your country's stores.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2023, 08:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 09, 2023, 12:12:33 amThat's a joke. It's obvious your bias is at play here. There's nothing wrong with that of course, but it's important to be aware of ones biases, even though it is difficult.Quote from: Simon on April 09, 2023, 06:43:07 pmYes that's true. Originally it started because labour is cheaper in less developed countries and they often have the raw materials too. Environmental protection laws in developed countries have actually made it worse, by making it more more expensive to manufacture goods domestically, so importing makes even more sense. Net zero will only make it even worse.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2023, 11:11:22 pm
content: Quote from: 5U4GB on April 13, 2023, 05:57:48 amThat's the problem with everything, many/most people shop almost purely by price. Two things look almost the same even though they're not, so people buy the cheapest one, then complain that it sucks. I don't really know how to fix that other than education but that's easier said than done.I try to avoid it when I can, I've bought quite a few Hue LED bulbs which are certainly not cheap and they're quite good, but they could be better, incorporating some true red emitters for example. So far I've only had one of those fail and thankfully it was a relatively cheap 2700k white one and not one of the tunable CCT or RGB bulbs.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2023, 11:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 14, 2023, 11:11:22 pmRegulation on the quality of products can be beneficial, in this case. LED lights for general applications could have mandated CRI, flicker levels, and efficiency, and be required to pass various accelerated aging tests to improve reliability. You could also mandate both long warranties and long-term compatible replacements (I'm looking at integrated fittings, especially downlights, here. With some anger.).

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 02:04:05 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 02, 2023, 01:05:58 pmOf course, in some parts of the world, it seldom gets dark enough during the day to need the use of headlights!

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 02:56:42 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 15, 2023, 02:04:05 amAs I pointed out above, daytime headlightsare legal everywherein the US.One reason to run them is to make your car more visible to others on the road.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 03:06:03 am
content: Whether it's actually useful in full daylight (unless very cloudy) is questionable, but there are some countries where not only it is legal, it is mandatory.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 04:07:32 am
content: they should ban lead free solder and PCB adhesives to stop the flow of e-waste, booby trapped for the repair man

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 09:42:26 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 15, 2023, 03:06:03 amIt can be simply tested whilst on a country road during a sunny day.I found no difference in visibility between vehicles with their lights on or off.Whether it is any more effective in heavy traffic I don't know, but I doubt it.The original idea came from Scandinavian countries where it is dark for most winter days.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 11:55:00 am
content: QuoteBut you know the car with the lights on is operating, whereas the one with lights off is dead in the water. Makes a difference if you're keeping track of potential hazards.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 12:10:25 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 15, 2023, 09:42:26 amYou don't have bad weather? Running lights are pretty much irrelevant on a bright sunny day out in the open. Even on one of those days you only need to go under a big underpass, and the lights start to be effective. In bad weather they are a real boon.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 06:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 15, 2023, 12:10:25 pmI just turn my lights on when it's dark out, whether that's because it's a gloomy cloudy day, because the sun has set or because I've driven into a tunnel doesn't really matter. It feels dark, lights on, sun comes out, lights off. I don't even consciously think about it.I actually think DRL has created a problem that didn't really exist before and that is people driving around at night without their lights on. Many/most newer cars have the instrument cluster illuminated all the time and that's typically what lets you know the headlights are on. I see so many people driving around town at night with nothing but the running lights on, no rear lights at all. In populated areas with streetlights it's not obvious that your headlights aren't on. I see it at least once almost every time I drive at night.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 06:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 15, 2023, 06:04:27 pmI had a Ford without daylight running lights where the cluster was always illuminated when the ignition was on, regardless of headlamp setting.Whereas my Golf with DRL's does not illuminate the cluster at night with the headlights off (though it has auto headlights, so not like it's important anyway.)So I'm not sure you can blame DRL's for this.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 08:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 15, 2023, 06:24:36 pmI have witnessed it many times and its DRL 19 times out of 20. I got bored in Oxford one evening.Part of the issue is the DRL light up enough things for city drivers to think that they have lights on. I think that the switch to cars having auto lights at the same time is partly to blame. If only the DRL also had the rears on I would be much happier, at least when it get dark I wouldnt be so worried. There have been moments at night where I haven't noticed straight away a car due to no lights on the rear but as it was moving it took a moment to process what was going on.Motorcycles were made to have the lights on all the time. The old Volvo was known for having the side lights and tail lights on all the time. So its no great challenge.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 09:13:54 pm
content: But either way, most modern cars have auto headlights and I can't fault how it works on my car or indeed a few others cars I've driven. Even a little bit of light rain gets the auto headlights to come on, but it's clever enough not to flash the lights on for an underpass whilst detecting tunnels quite well. Looking at the diagnostics, it uses the presence of street lighting at a certain beat frequency and the vehicle speed to switch between 'highway' and 'non-highway' modes, presumably on a highway mode it's got different sensitivity and some way to reject street lighting at higher speeds.If people don't use the tools they've got then nothing can save us. I wouldn't blame DRL's, and there's a reasonable body of research out there justifying their use (for instance,TRL report).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 09:52:51 pm
content: Don't worry, AI will save us.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 12:33:37 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 15, 2023, 12:10:25 pmIf we have bad weather, it is"slam you up against the wall & beat you up"type of weather.Most of the rest of the time, it is reasonably sunny between showers, or even normal storms.Those very dark, overcast days, where it looks like late afternoon all day are not near as common as in UK winters.When visibility is bad, peoplewillturn on their proper headlights."Underpass"? ---We turn our lights on if we go through a tunnel, but an underpass would have to be seriously big to need to do so.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 10:55:57 am
content: if avg LED lasts 5years , or ~5000h , or avg ~3.3h/d (from experience)where 50 000h should last for 50ywhy their numbers became more modest

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 06:19:52 pm
content: Quote from: strawberry on April 16, 2023, 10:55:57 amCite your source of numbers if you want to be believable, rather than an undefined "they". I believe your numbers are not correct, at least for quality products which can last the life of the vehicle.But in general, the 50K number is about JUST the LED, not the associated electronics that require sufficient heatsinking. Heat is what shortens the life of the electronics. Cheap aftermarket products often skimp on both the quality of components and the heatsinks.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 07:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 16, 2023, 12:33:37 amUnderpasses can be hundreds of metres long, especially when 2 roads cross in a gentle X pattern, and someone is underneath for quite a distance. They seem to like doing that in parts of America, and your sat nav gets confused because you appear to be on the right road, when you are really on the one above or below.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 07:58:26 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 16, 2023, 06:19:52 pmmeant household bulbs . usually not near to automotive environment temperaturesI bought one E27 PAR Osram in ~2010 for ~15eur top price at the time. It still works (avg daily usage ~0.5h/d ) not much data but dozen cheap had been repaired (failed : capacitors ,LED)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 09:01:49 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 16, 2023, 07:23:20 pmI don't have a car, but my dad's car does automatically adjust the lighting, when going through a tunnel. I don't know if there's a time delay, or a low pass filter on the sensor, to prevent it flashing, whilst going under a bridge.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 09:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 16, 2023, 09:01:49 pmI think any modern car with automated lights does this. As I enter any darkish place my LCD dashboard switches from day mode (bright background) to night mode (dark background). Assuming I have the lights in the automatic mode they switch too. If they have been left in manual, the dashboard gives a warning as things get dark.