Sydney Metro Opens - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 05:48:12 am
content: So the Sydney Metro finally opened today.Our first metro system and driverless train.Went for a short ride. The doors don't line up with the gates, the trip display signs didn't work properly, and there was a breakdown in first hourWhy on earth wouldn't the doors align with the gates? Surely that's something that would have been hammered out in testing long ago.Perhaps the extra load of all the passengers now somehow?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 05:55:21 am
content: I've heard from a normal sydney train driver that getting things perfectly lined up on the station so you don't over or undershoot by a meter is something that takes about a week of driving hours to really learn, that about half way down the station is there commit point, and If they are not right there, it can be hard to trim in. Equally they build some experience for how loaded the train is when they accelerate away from the previous station.So I would assume they would have done dry run tests, or even partially loaded tests, but on the day would have been a fully packed test trip or similar.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 07:41:37 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on May 26, 2019, 05:55:21 amAren't the Sydney trams driver-less though?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 01:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 26, 2019, 07:41:37 amNo idea!, never been on one. When in the city I always walk everywhere.

author: jhalar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 02:36:46 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 26, 2019, 07:41:37 amThe Sydney trams (light rail) have drivers.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 12:02:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2019, 01:35:38 pmYeah, the tram only really makes sense if you're going out past Glebe, although the very rare times I use it is mostly from Central to the Casino stop (across the road from our buildings) when I've come in from the airport and want to go straight to work.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 03:47:07 pm
content: That's a very pretty little video. I like the music too, very Vangelis-ish.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 05:58:11 pm
content: What happened to the Sydney monorail?

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 06:17:16 pm
content: Why are the docks closed, with door openings? I also saw this in some stations in Barcelona.Alexander.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 01:10:23 am
content: Quote from: apis on May 27, 2019, 05:58:11 pmIt was shut down several years ago after 25 years of service. Nearly all of it was dismantled - there's just one station left at the western end of Pyrmont Bridge, to remember it by.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 02:16:11 am
content: Where is the teardown? I can’t find it in that video!The problem is shown ina news reportand they explain, that it s in fact caused by “passanger weight variation”. Though I don’t really like the “get used to it! The train is doing exactly what it should do.” I could accept the explanation, if it would sometimes stop after and sometimes before the gates. I would be a bit of “really? impossible to fix??”, but I am not an expert on trains — I would not argue. But the train is clearly overshooting. That sounds like a bad calibration, not an inability to control train precisely enough.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 04:55:53 am
content: Quote from: jhalar on May 27, 2019, 02:36:46 amThe new Metro system (that just opened) is fully automated though, I think this is different to the light rail?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 05:37:15 am
content: Yes, the Metro is an augmentation of the heavy rail system that began in Sydney in 1855. The Metro runs on its own tracks through a dedicated rail corridor, just like the heavy rail, but the Metro is fully automated. Metro trains and regular (heavy rail) trains do not operate on each other's tracks.The Light Rail is, in effect, a tram system, that has rails embedded in roadways for much of it and shares the space with both vehicular and foot traffic.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 01:25:45 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 28, 2019, 01:10:23 amThe stations at both sides of Pyrmont Bridge ("Harbourside" & "Darling Park") are still present. Large chunks of the old depot (just south of the old "Convention" stop) are still present (some is now used for the trams, the rest I'm not sure).Bits of some of the CBD stations remain, mostly, I assume, because removing the building mods would be far too expensive.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 02:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on May 28, 2019, 02:16:11 amIt's possible in Denmark at least, don't know about Australia.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 02:16:52 pm
content: Quote from: LapTop006 on May 28, 2019, 01:25:45 pmSorry ... you are right. I missed that.QuoteI understood there were other fragments, but I never paid much attention to the specifics.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 02:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: bsudbrink on May 27, 2019, 03:47:07 pmSounds a bit like an old Hammond Novachord.https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/gearfest-2016-hammond-novachord/#

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 02:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 28, 2019, 02:16:52 pmI walk past the Ultimo / Pyrmont half of it every day on the way to work, not that I ever did, but I could almost have used it to commute.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 03:33:18 pm
content: It should not be difficult to stop the train with a precision of, say, 25 cm. That is what feedback control loops were made for.X meters before the final stop apply standard calculated brake to stop in desired distance. Then continually monitor speed and distance and correct as needed until final stop.Not that I am an expert in this type of thing but I never noticed any problem with this in the Guangzhou metro and, man, are those trains long!With the underground tunnels and stations having the platforms closed off from the tunnels saves a lot in heating and cooling.In any case, it saves accidents from people falling or being pushed on to the tracks.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 06:19:18 pm
content: Yes, I'm sure they can tweak the code to get better stopping accuracy. It's not just the varying weight of the passenger load, there are also the conditions of the rail affecting the available braking power - even just temperature variations, never mind if it's raining or not. And further complicating things is the lag between control action and brake reaction, it's not instantaneous. A strictly accurate feedback loop could stop the train on the mark every single time - but the final stop would be rather sudden and jolting. It's that intuition that a human driver (engineer here) develops with experience to have a fee for it and plan ahead to know when to make the brake application that will stop the train where he or she wants it to. And since this is a human factor, it's not always 100% - I've been on some trains that the last bit of stopping is a pretty stiff jolt because the engineer underestimated the braking rate and had to hit the air a bit more to avoid an overshoot. There have been plenty of times where, especially in winter icing conditions like we get here, where the trains completely slide right past the station stop and they have to back up. I'd love to see how well a fully automated system handles icy rail. Keep in mind that often times here in the US, the trains aren't frequent enough such that only the first one actually encounters the ice. With an hour or more between trains, it's easily possible for ice to build up after the passage of one train but before the next one comes along. Automated trains seem to work very well in completely controlled conditions, like in airport trams (and a lot of those are rubber tired, not steel wheels on steel rail), with fairly even loads and various trips within the station area. The last one I was on was in McCarren airport in Las Vegas, and Idid notice that if the train was fairly empty, it stopped a greater distance from the end of track bumper in the station. On such things I try to sit or stand right up by the front car - better view from there, and those sorts of things interest me more than most people who just view it as a way to get from the gate to the terminal and back.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2019, 07:02:07 pm
content: I do not believe there are any variables in stopping a train with precision at a given point that cannot be taken into account by an automatic system much better than by a human. If the tracks are slippery then it just means slowing down earlier and using less braking deceleration. And you can always do that if in any doubt as to conditions. All you have to do is do the last few meters dead slow. I would guess an automatic system can do consistently better in stopping a train on target than a human can.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2019, 03:45:49 pm
content: This video of the Eastern Suburbs line opening 40 years ago was recently uploaded to YouTube for some contrast.