Advice needed: Security camera vs. Smart Home Doorbell vs. Other options - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 06:17:20 pm
content: Hi,I am looking for some advice regarding beefing up home security and wanted to see what you thought were good options. We have some friends with the Ring Doorbell, but we recently got a Google Nest Hub so I was also looking at the Nest Hello (although Ring I believe also works with it)? On the other hand, they are fairly expensive... $200-300 Canadian.At our office we have a Samsung system with a hard drive recorder connected to up to 4 cameras and the price is comparable. But it is all installed on the interior, and we have a drop-ceiling with the wires just running along above the tiles, which makes it easy to install. I will probably find it harder to wire in this type of system on our house because I have to pull cables everywhere from exterior to interior, fish it through walls, etc... but it may be more robust and visible from the street to act as a deterrent, and I can record things locally to the HD (with option to remote access over Internet).I guess my main concern is the wiring of a traditional security camera system and installing it. Those doorbell ones seem to work on WiFi and take power from the installed doorbell button, and would be easier to install but also have one location and viewpoint only. Putting up 4 traditional cameras will give me wider views and mounted in spots that are hard to tamper with, in multiple locations, for the same cost it seems.... but even if they are wireless, I will have to run power to them somehow.Your thoughts appreciated, as always.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 09:04:07 pm
content: I'm principally opposed to cloud based solutions, and installed an IP-POE camera based system with a standalone NVR. At least with POE cameras, pulling the wires and locating the cameras isn't too bad.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 09:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on August 26, 2019, 09:04:07 pmYep that's what I did as any battery powered wireless solution is just a PITA.20m POE is no problem for IP IR cameras and with any decent POE capable NVR you can have a trigger out to indicate recording activations. Doesn't tell you which camera but it at least gives you the heads up that something has triggered a IR motion sensor.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 09:21:09 pm
content: Didn’t Google just break Nest compatibility in all sorts of ways? That’s the issue with these cloud solutions. You’re completely depending on someone else allowing you to use your product.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 09:39:20 pm
content: I find the IP POE solutions to be the most common(for serious monitoring). They have the added advantage that if someone steals a package from your door it'll catch before, during, and after. As opposed to just after like most of the cloud based smart doorbells.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 10:53:40 am
content: There was a recent thread where I participated and where we discussed a lot of this.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ip-camera-solution/

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 11:04:24 am
content: Can I ask firstly: What is the problem you're trying to solve? What is your total budget?I'm generally not a fan of things like internet connected doorbells etc... they really have no business being connected to the internet and mainly just offer cyber attackers a vulnerable device to exploit.If you're after CCTV, then get decent quality CCTV cameras and a recorder. Unless you have a specific need, that doesn't need to be connected to the internet either. Wi-Fi models exist but you would still need to find a way to get power to them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 04:36:17 pm
content: Also be aware that it may not be allowed to have fixed cameras outside the house. Illegally obtained footage will be dismissed in a court of law.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 05:05:42 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 27, 2019, 11:04:24 amThere is no problem per se, but I'd like to discourage any fishy activities and if something does happen I'd like to have something to show to police. I'm not sure about the legal status of camera footage outside the house. If that is the case, I would install a "fake" camera outside the house as a deterrent and use WiFi based cameras in the house. Obviously by then it is too late and the perpetrator has already entered the facility, but I assume it is then legally obtained footage. Capturing them outside the house for vandalism or porch-pirating wouldn't really stop the person anyways, as by the time you are aware of the problem and dispatch anyone (just like alarm systems) they are usually long gone.Budget wise I would prefer not to spend a huge amount. I've seen 4 camera systems that connect to a DVR for about $500-600. Cheaper ones can be in the $300-400 range. I can't justify spending $200-300 for a single Doorbell camera and getting locked into an ecosystem or needing to pay for cloud storage of footage. If I have a DVR in the house recording a few cameras and I can always review things (like we have at the office) even remotely via IP access, it is preferable. The newer systems probably even have optional cloud solutions too, but the one in our office simply records to a local drive and I can access it remotely or in the same network to review things.Concern is budget but also wiring work. If I manage to get a wireless/WiFi based system then I still need to power the cameras. I am not sure if there is any easy way to randomly mount these and run a power source to the camera, certainly not outside the wall as it would look terrible. I would need to punch in from the ceiling and run cabling everywhere, which inside the home is also going to be somewhat creepy looking if there are cameras hanging from the ceiling. I would prefer to have exterior cameras.I'm just mulling over options because we have a lot of people we know who have these Nest and Ring doorbells, and we recently got a Google Nest Hub (our first and ONLY such device... we otherwise do not have a smart home at all) and so it started an interest in this "feature upgrade". If we didn't get the Google Nest Hub device it wouldn't have even been on my radar, to tell the truth.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 05:23:22 pm
content: Consider thefailuremodes, including but not limited to:battery goes flatinternet is unavailableWiFi settings changecompany obseletes your devicecompany is taken over, or failscompany turns off the serverssince "a distributed system is one where your application can fail because of something you didn't know existed", repeat the above for all things your components use invisibly behind the sceneswhen a security hole is found, how are patches applied - if theycanbe appliedWhen, not if, any of those happens, how does the system operate? Or not.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 05:44:49 pm
content: One of the first aspects you need to consider with any camera system is lighting and illumination. No camera will work in total darkness and infrared illuminated bullet style cameras are a haven for spiders and inturn cobwebs. These not only affect the image quality but can also trigger false motion events in the log if motion or activity detection is enabled.The same will apply for trees and other moving objects such as vehicles and reflections so camera location always needs careful consideration. In regards to equipment, do not purchase any kit which uses silly pre-terminated cables or connections, they make the task of wiring much more difficult and are almost impossible to replace if damaged.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 06:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 26, 2019, 09:21:09 pmSince this has come up before, I just want to point out for the Nest thermostats atleast, no online functionality is required for them to work. Mine are completely offline and still make nice simple thermostats with all the functionality I need (including detailed scheduling of temps throughout the day/week, etc).

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 06:22:03 pm
content: Security camera vs. Smart Home Doorbell vs. Other optionsSecurity camera & Smart Home Doorbell & Other options: easy-peasy, a trained dog.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 06:38:21 pm
content: Use Ubiquiti uvc-g3-af at home. Running cables in the attic and popping out of the soffits usually isn't too bad. Easy enough to mount them right to the soffit and keeps them out of most of the weather.Find 6x of those + 85 pound German Shepard paint a nice billboard pointing out this is the wrong house.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 06:57:05 pm
content: Yes, was thinking of getting a dog for the longest time.... the kids have been begging me for years.But our work schedule just isn't compatible... It wouldn't be right to have a dog like this cooped up in the house all day. I would prefer to do it when we have family members available most of the day to devote the time and energy to pay attention and properly train it. Nobody is retired, everyone busy with work or school.Thanks for all the suggestions thus far. I like the idea of IP-PoE system but I need to get CAT5 wired around the house. That will also help internet connectivity for some of the rooms that don't have such good WiFi reception. If I can manage to run a few lengths around the house that would come in handy hooking up lots of things.I will ask our alarm guy who is an acquaintance and see what he can do. He has the tools and expertise running lines all over houses for alarms and has probably done quite a few camera systems, so I can see what it will cost me (rather than trying to cobble something on my own). From what I gather from this thread and others, it seems better to spend the money on a proper IP-PoE with dedicated DVR box and isolated internal network rather than relying on these "Smart Home" type doorbells. I will have to figure it out and see whether it meets the budget.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 08:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2019, 04:36:17 pmOf course that would depend on local laws. As far as I know (and I stand to be corrected), anyone is allowed to record anyone else in a public place without their consent. This is certainly the case in Australia and I would expect US, CA, UK and NZ as well. As for private property, well anything goes as long as you're the lawful occupant. CCTV cameras are extremely common in both commercial and residential buildings (in a commercial building, you just have to notify the employees they are being recorded by way of a notice or signage).Honestly if you're considering CCTV, I personally would recommend the Ubiquiti gear, yes, it involves running Ethernet cable but do it once and it's done properly. Of course you can power those cameras using PoE so it's just the one cable you need to worry about. The UBNT cameras are excellent quality but you will pay a bit more for them. As far as I know the recorder can either run as software on your PC or you can purchase their standalone NVR. Either way, you might want to consider a UPS to power the switch, cameras and recorder (crooks have been known to switch power off to a house they are trying to break into).As you rightly said, you can get cheap Chinese packages, but more often than not they are just pure garbage and they record in some bizarre custom implementation of H.264 which require you to use their special player to play back any recordings.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 09:14:07 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 27, 2019, 08:43:30 pmI have a bunch of cheap Chinese cams I bought on eBay and they don't "play back" anything because it is the recorder who records and plays back but they all seem to work just fine. I can save some video to a pendrive and it will play back on any player. I have never had a problem with this and I have bought about a dozen cameras from different sellers and types.A different issue is that they are full of security holes and call home. As I have them filming the exterior of the house I do not mind this but I would not have them showing the inside of the house.Quote from: Halcyon on August 27, 2019, 08:43:30 pmIt makes sense doesn't it? In America the usual standard is "expectation of privacy". If you are in a place where you have no expectation of privacy then you can be video recorded. Makes sense. And, since it makes sense in some European countries they have the most retarded laws. And among European countries Spain has to be the most retarded of all. Here you need, not only a permit, but to register with the police and post a notice saying where people can request the video be deleted, etc. The entire thing is retarded even if made with the ostensible purpose of protecting people's privacy. I have cameras pointed at the front gate and you can see the street. They are "technically" illegal but local police have asked me for recordings a couple times to help them solve cases. We live in a country with such retarded laws and such bureaucracy that the situation is that everybody is outside the law and the authorities just look the other way. Except when they are after you and want to get you. Then suddenly the laws appear out of nowhere and they get you with all the force of the law.

author: rgarito
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:35:49 am
content: In the USA, you can record VIDEO anywhere (as stated above) that privacy is not expected (ie, bathroom, bedroom, dressing rooms in stores, etc). You will see a lot of places with signs stating you are being video recorded. This is mostly a deterrent, as the signs are not legally required.AUDIO is a different story--it is illegal to record audio in the USA without permission or a court order. In some states, only one person being recorded needs to give permission, while in other states, everyone being recorded has to consent. (usually used for recording telephone conversations).