Damn, I lost an hour and the run didn't finish... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 07:33:02 pm
content: Did you ever have the pleasure of dealing with regularly scheduled multiple long overnight batch jobs for an IT department or for a substantial IT setup during DST/EST change over?Today's world is a technology driven world. We have much stronger dependence on indoor lighting with much higher efficiency. Is moving clock back and forth for daylight saving really saving anything or justwaitingwastingpeople's energy in doing it? If it saves, why not do it year-round.29 out of 50 States in the USA decided to adopt year-round daylight savings time regardless of saving or not. Now I no longer have multiple lengthy batch runs to worry about, but just a house full of clocks to deal with -- I still wish all 50 States will kill this EST/EST thing and the rest of the world would also.What do you think?EDIT: corrected a word, I mean "wasting" not "waiting" (noticed it when I tried to refer back to exactly this point in a reply)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 07:44:26 pm
content: I don't understand. Currently there are only two states that don't change time - Arizona and Hawaii. A lot of states want to stop this stupidity, but it looks like it is constantly stalling for no obvious to me reason. It is a no-brainer that monotonic time is better.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 07:56:51 pm
content: It presumably served a purpose during the WWII war years. You got off work when it was still light and didn't need headlights to drive home, and other conjured up reasons. There was also double time (aka War Time) in which the change was 2 hours.Today, what might make more sense is fast time. Turn the clocks ahead in Winter (from GMT) so 6 AM local is really 7 AM solar time. That way kids waiting for school buses don't wait in the dark.I am one of the majority who prefers standard time all year. As some wise Native American reportedly said, only a white man would think removing an hour in the morning and adding it to the evening would lengthen the day.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 08:19:33 pm
content: lets keep everyone happy an just move the clock forward half an hour,then leave it alone

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 08:30:44 pm
content: Interesting that I have the same impression: it seems to be something that people hate across the board but it persists every year.A few years ago Brazil abolished this nonsense and only the fanatic detractors of the current president threw a fit. The vast majority welcomed the change. There the nonsense was even more dramatic, as a tropical country does not have enough daylight variance throughout the year to justify such thing.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 08:45:03 pm
content: As for my point about school children, an easier solution in our Northern states would be to start school an hour later during the Winter. As a parent of 4 in Minnesota, it really is worrisome to drop the kids off when it is pitch dark.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 09:36:31 pm
content: California voters approved permanent DST and it has gone nowhereQuotehttps://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/daylight-savings-time-state-legislation.aspxSo, blame it on the Feds - 1966 Uniform Time Act.https://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/daylight-savings-time-state-legislation.aspxThat damn Commerce Clause lets the Feds get involved in everything! Without doubt, the dumbest thing in the Constitution.https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commerce_clause

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 09:54:08 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 13, 2022, 09:36:31 pmUnfortunately, yes. I agree. Anything, if properly phrased , comes under the commerce clause, even illegal activities.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 11:20:03 pm
content: I don't find changing the clocks twice per year to be very disruptive. To be honest, I appreciate the extra hour of daylight during the summer and the sun rising an hour earlier in the winter. But, if it causes trouble for some then who am I to argue.On the other hand, I don't understand thepassion that some farmers seem have for this. Can't they just get out of bed whenever they want? The livestock and crops don't care what the clock says, why do the farmers care?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 11:31:05 pm
content: It also creates issues with scheduling international calls. I have a weekly work call with people from India and France. India does not change time. France changes on the month boundary, US changes on some arbitrary dates designed to sell more crap. Scheduling this around a couple weeks when some sides have changed and others did not, is a huge waste of time.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 12:21:50 am
content: Quote from: eugene on March 13, 2022, 11:20:03 pmActually farmers were against DST. Indiana used to stay on standard ("slow") time. One of several citations on the subject:https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2015/03/06/five-myths-about-daylight-saving-time/I don't know a farmer who objects to getting up at 4AM GMT+5 (i.e., Eastern US time) regardless of the clock. And as pointed out, crops and cows don't read the clock. They read the Sun. Myself? I naturally awake between 4 and 4:30 AM local time and adjust. That has been my routine most of my professional life. It's not worth going to war about, but DST is just silly.What really bugs me is that clothing stores all open at 10AM. I hate shopping so late, yet on the rare occasions I go to department stores at 10AM, I am usually the only one there. Why can't they open at 7 or 8 AM like real businesses?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 12:27:15 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on March 14, 2022, 12:21:50 amI think you have answered your own question. If the clothing stores, are relatively empty/lacking customers at such early times (10AM), then I'm not surprised, they don't want to open at even earlier times, if it would NOT be profitable for them. Since they would be paying staff and other running costs, without getting a profitable return from customers, at such early times.Presumably, there are reasons why people tend to shop for cloths relatively late in the day, compared to other items.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 12:56:10 am
content: If we're complaining about clothing stores, why the hell do they change seasonal clothing months before the seasons themselves? If you want summer cloths you need to buy it in the spring. By late summer they're selling only cloths suitable for cold weather.I know I'm just a grumpy old man, but I generally don't plan cloths shopping months in advance. Just like groceries and electronic components, I think about buying them when I need them.QuoteRight, and I don't understand why farmers have traditionally been so passionate about the subject. DST can be inconvenient for people that need to interact with other people. Even just going to an office job can be a problem if it means losing an hours sleep. But the farmers? What do they have to complain about? Even their hired help can just get up an hour earlier/later -- according to the clock; really they're still getting up at the same time.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 02:17:43 am
content: It fades the curtains!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 02:40:06 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 13, 2022, 07:44:26 pmMost states and most of the people in the US want to drop this nonsense but it was mandated by Congress back in the 1970s as an "energy saving measure" so only they can stop it. OTOH Biden could stop it with an Executive Order if he wished but let's not even talk about that!

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 03:42:16 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on March 13, 2022, 08:45:03 pmChild psychologists have been trying for years to get schools to move start times later particularly for teenagers on the basis that it is shown to be better for both their health and their performance in school. This meets a lot of resistance from parents who have jobs and schedules. It's difficult to push back just schools without affecting a bunch of other things. If you are going to change schedules seasonally shifting the clock is probably less inconvenient than a mish mash of shifting schedules from different schools, businesses and other organizations. It's annoying enough when continents can't agree on the time to shift schedules. It would be impractical to implement seasonal schedule changes without daylight savings time.It's not just kids either. Driving to work before sunrise is bad for adults too.For health and safety year round standard time would be the choice but there are a lot of businesses that are opposed to that because more hours of daylight in the evening means more business.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 04:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on March 14, 2022, 03:42:16 pmWhen you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.The problem is they are ignoring the basic tenant of teaching where you teach during the day, apply homework to foster compartmentalization of the concepts. You follow up the learning by recapping the next morning and building from there.These higher than thou drug and alcohol affected know it alls, who interrupt their own learning with late-night screen time, don't realize how much they are stuffing up the proven study system.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 04:07:48 pm
content: A related problem with Daylight Saving (one s) Time in the US is that too many entities can't be bothered to state their hours of operation correctly.That is, they say they are open 10 AM to 5 PM EST when they mean EDT.I'm old enough to remember the chaotic situation before the Uniform Time Act of 1966, when individual States were allowed to choose whether or not to adopt DST, but imposed a uniform pair of dates for those who chose to switch.Before that, different States and municipalities chose their own dates or participation. To avoid train wrecks, Federal law required that all common carriers (planes, trains, buses, etc.) had to use Standard Time.I lived in a city that bordered on another State, and the city chose to use the same dates as the neighboring State, despite the rest of my State--what could possibly go wrong?In 2006, the State of Indiana (where the western edge, in Central Time, used CDT and the bulk of the state used EST), changed to Daylight Time, leaving only Arizona (except, of course, for the Navajo Reservation that covered multiple States, but surrounds the Hopi Reservation that stays with Arizona on MST) and Hawaii as users of year-round Standard Time.Personally, I advocate abolition of DST. People and businesses are free to set their hours to accord with daylight and schedules. Japan seems to thrive without it.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 04:09:33 pm
content: In essence the same as a period close, month close, new year. Things that happen at different times across the world since many years.If we haven't managed to solve that predictable riddle in an organisation by now, what is the readiness for unpredictable events?

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 04:23:50 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 14, 2022, 04:05:40 pmEd, I think it's more about getting out of bed in the dark and waiting for the bus in the dark than getting to sleep in a little extra. I know that being forced to get up and get going before the sun affects my general performance throughout the day.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 04:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on March 14, 2022, 04:23:50 pmAs an old teacher and also an old boss, I can tell you that it doesn't matter how much we allow the sleep-in, your people will end up rising at midday!In my country we have an expression, "going to bed with the chooks". It means when the sun sets, the chickens go to sleep. You can't have both. You need enough sleep to make you want to rise early, if you want to.In my own case, when I used to do stupid hours, I found that a late dinner was detrimental to my getting to sleep and thus waking up in time to happily shake hands with the vampires.I realize that forcing everyone to dial back dinner time is bridge too far. The compromise is to eat a bit less in the evening. Then, you'll be as hungry as F and your gut will get you out of bed.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:00:19 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 14, 2022, 04:05:40 pmI think if you read your post, you will find that you are the one shit-posting something unsupported by any facts except your own gut intuition and "that is the way they did things in my day, so it must be right"Here is an AAP survey article on the topic with a huge number of supporting references:https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/134/3/642/74175/School-Start-Times-for-AdolescentsHere is the CDC:https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/shpps/pdf/shpps-508-final_101315.pdfHere is an article on the shifting sleep cycle of adolescents:https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17383934/It is the overwhelming consensus of those who actually study this that delaying school start times until 8:30 or later is proved to improve sleep, health, and school performance. Your "proven" method is just demonstrably worse. None of those references ignore the effect of late night screen-time and other factors and *also* recommend against that.But none of that was really my point. My point was: just saying you can change to year-round "DST" and just have schools start an hour later in the winter is not feasible. Nobody would accept that situation, it is not realistic. The only practical choices are picking a standard time and keeping it year round or implementing daylight savings time. While I personally prefer daylight savings time and am honestly tired of being told by shit posters on the internet that I don't exist or I don't "really" prefer it, I understand a large chunk of the population would prefer a single time all year round. However, reaching an agreement on which time should be standard is substantially harder.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:24:18 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on March 14, 2022, 05:00:19 pmBut the historical aptitude tests don't match the trendy studies, do they?I read that someone has trouble getting out of bed when it's still dark. It's a problem that I solved 'back in the day'. My solution still applies today. If you think that's a shit post, fine. I can't motivate you to take any notice of me any more than I can motivate anyone to get out of bed and get the worm and all that.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:36:34 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 14, 2022, 05:24:18 pmIf you have any _evidence_ whatsoever for changing school times having a neutral or negative effect on student performance, go ahead and post it, otherwise this is just a bad faith insinuation of evidence that does not exist. Also, saying that aggregate standardized tests over time for all factors are a better metric of the success of one suggested change that hasn't been widely adopted is better than a study that looks specifically at the difference between starting times is a bit... nonsensical, and would score very poorly on an analytical reading standardized test.QuoteNo, it is shit-posting to claim that something that worked for you is widely applicable to everyone despite scientific evidence to the contrary. You are basically arguing that the singular of anecdote is data. I'm glad you found a system that worked for you. That does not negate the clear evidence of what works best at a societal level.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:50:55 pm
content: I love all the talk about a child's second decade, sleep patterns, rhythms etc. In those articles, can we point to any effect of caffeine/energy drinks?It always comes back to food, namely shitty food. And the effect gets worse as you get older.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 08:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on March 14, 2022, 04:09:33 pmBut I think you would agree that "NOT having the problem at all" is superior to "having a problem with known solutions". That is why in my OP, I referred to it as a "wasting people's energy" (I notice I had a typo in the OP thus not getting my message across! I wrote "waitingpeople's energy" instead of "wastingpeople's energy". I corrected it just prior to this post).In my pre-retirement days with responsibility of an IT department with international access, it was a real headache. Besides scheduling meetings, conference calls, etc., on "short nights" we needed different batch processes to ensure proper up-time for domestic as well as not non-domestic business hours.Tools were slower than and less powerful back then. Even mass emails were batched for overnight because of bandwidth constrains then. While we have better faster tools today, but knowing nature of people, I am confident people correspondingly expanded their expectations -- the available night hours would still be too short to do all the "likes to do's" and even less with "short nights."

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 09:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 14, 2022, 05:50:55 pmDude.. there is a mountain of evidence here for years, its not caused by energy drinks. If anything kids will use energy drinks more with an earlier start because they are sleep deprived.Of course poor food will make it worse, but that is not the cause.QuoteQuotehttps://theconversation.com/the-biological-reason-why-its-so-hard-for-teenagers-to-wake-up-early-for-school-88802https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5726563/https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/01/teens-are-driven-to-stay-up-late-but-why.htmlhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33826994/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15866859/

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 11:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on March 15, 2022, 09:05:20 pmRunning on sugar not carbs. Just be wary of the mountain of evidence generated by people who don't frontline teach. At the end of the day, the numbers are still slipping.Anyway, I wonder if the traditional approach to education is toast except of course for the densely populated areas. I'm more interested in what the last few decades in general and the last few years in particular has done for home schooling and for small community learning.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 05:49:56 am
content: Ask, and you shall receive...The Hill magazine (as in Capital Hill USA) report March 15 2022:"Senate unanimously approves making daylight saving time permanent ..."https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/598314-senate-unanimously-approves-making-daylight-saving-time-permanentMay be some politicians read EEVBLOG... may be.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 06:09:31 am
content: Good grief.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 02:26:26 pm
content: Ed, are you generally opposed to any improvement in the education of our children, or is there something about this particular topic that gets your fur up? It seems as though you just don't want things to be better for the next generation than they were for the last. It's perplexing...Or are you just so crusty and miserable that anything new is impossible to bear, even if it happens to other people and not you?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 03:28:03 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on March 16, 2022, 02:26:26 pmLemme try an make things a bit simpler for you.Opposed to any improvement in the education of our children? Of course not. I have stated that grades are slipping despite 'improvements' that clearly are not working.The relentless waffle and reports from special interest groups than aim to futz with the system to justify all their chair polishing results in a contribution that is more often than not founded upon utter nonsense or statistics. It's a concept even your own sig suggests.QuoteBut the thing is it's not new. People influencing school policies never address the grades and they ought to be yeeted so that the teachers can get on with job of teaching the kids instead of being distracted by changing protocols and perhaps focus on raising the attentiveness of their charges.I hope my answer satisfies you. I'm going to be away, so I'll prolly lurk but unlikely to participate further.edit:typo