Tesla 'beta testing' safety critical software on the road???? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 10:06:13 am
content: When I heard on the news the other day that Tesla were rolling out their self-drive mode as a s/w upgrade, and that drivers were being warned that there might still be problems, it started to ring warning bells. I saw this on the BBC news site today:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34603364Apparently several reports / videos of the s/w performing dangerous acts, and several quotes from Tesla:Quoteand some from Elon Musk:QuoteSurely this amounts to Beta testing safety critical software on the public roads! Ok, you might want to offer a beta version of a mobile OS or compiler alongside a stable version, but (semi)Autonomous vehicle control S/W???What's the story here? Is it just that the regulatory authorities are behind the curve in the US and there are no proper compliance testing for this, or is sneaking out S/W as an 'upgrade' with a few 'release notes', in the same way that you might upgrade the A/V system, a sneak path around compliance regulations.On the face of it, it seems far more irresponsible than anything the VW engineers have done.EDIT: Here's the original release story with similarly (MORE) worrying quotes:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34535604

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 10:58:44 am
content: Just to pull out one more (dare I say) amusing quote from Elon Musk in the original release article:Quote

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 11:08:08 am
content: QuoteQuoteI prefer the Volvo way.

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 11:09:41 am
content: Automotive regulatory officials here are typically extremely risk adverse, so I would be surprised if they allowed Telsa to just "sneak it in" when it comes to this functionality. Neither of the two videos cited by the BBC clearly demonstrate that there is something wrong with the system when it's being used in a manner as advised by Tesla.I think it's likely that the update was approved after regulators considered both its reliability and the inevitability of requiring field testing for such technology. Without a doubt, they are introducing new risks onto the roadway, just look at the problems encountered by Chrysler's "finalized" implementation of automatic braking on their recent vehicles.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 01:32:37 pm
content: Tesla's autopilot is an adaptive lane holding cruise control and nothing much more. It's similar to DISTRONIC Plus from Mercedes and other lane holding systems although it does offer lane change which is a new feature.It does NOT adapt speed according to the speed limit (yet)It does NOT change lanes automatically, only if you press the indicator on a multi-lane highwayIt doesn't handle intersections, roundabouts, stop signs, etc.It will often take exit slip roads if the lane markings are confusing, so it's important to guide the car away from the lane if this starts to happen.It only works when it can see the lanes or can follow the car in frontIt will disengage if the lane markings are lost. In the case of "Tesla autopilot tried to kill me" the driver was busy filming and NOT paying attention to the car. And, when the car went over the hill it lost sight of the lane markings - it works on a camera only - had no idea what to do and disengaged. Wheel torque and road surface then pulls the wheel left. You can see the car dashboard saying "TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY" with bright red graphics and beeping sound. Nothing to do with the autopilot at that point. The driver maintains full responsibility for the car.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 01:47:42 pm
content: in other news : Tesla completes a non-stop run from Redondo beach (CA) all the way to New York, Setting two records- 57 hours travel time- on autopilot.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 02:22:51 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 23, 2015, 01:47:42 pmI thought that they hired you as a designer, not as a cherry picker.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 02:40:55 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 23, 2015, 02:22:51 pmThat doesn't qualify as cherry picking...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 10:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on October 23, 2015, 02:40:55 pmWell for one it wasnt a non-stop trip. Free Electron is a loose publicity machine and brings up plenty of rubbish on here.

author: HP-ILnerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 03:26:19 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 23, 2015, 10:00:34 pmYeah, the dude actually seems to like his job and the company he works for. What's up with that?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 12:36:44 pm
content: If they want to test the self driving cars in real world conditions they can come to S Africa and test them here, if they do 100 000km and are not involved in an accident with either a minibus taxi, a drunk pedestrian or an errant cow then the firmware is good enough.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 12:42:03 pm
content: Not particularly relevant to this story, nor is there any proof that this is true in this case, but don't forget: self-driving cars don't need to be perfect, they only have to be better than humans. And looking at the road tolls in any country, you can see that's not a massively high bar.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 01:08:39 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on October 24, 2015, 12:42:03 pmActually it really is. They have to be better than a very good human driver, and even a very good human driver can be blindsided by a bad human driver. When all human drivers have been removed from the equation, then they can lower the bar, but until then the technology still has to be considerably better than it is right now.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:38:34 pm
content: In terms of strict interpretation of the thread title, a Google search for 'Tesla beta program' or 'Tesla beta test' certainly yields a lot of hits, including forums on the official teslamotors.com website. Whether it's called a beta test or 'early access program'...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 23, 2015, 10:00:34 pmShow me a car that can drive 57 hours non stop... of course it was a non-stop trip. they had to fuel up along the way ( humans and car ).Anything else, Captain Obvious ?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 11:10:04 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 24, 2015, 08:56:58 pm1 Hour record attempt:An honest advertisement admits that there are stops even when they dont take on more fuel:https://www.audi.co.uk/about-audi/latest-news/audi-a6-ultra-goes-the-distance-and-sets-new-world-record.htmlClaiming non-stop travel is disingenuous and misleading.Quote from: HP-ILnerd on October 24, 2015, 03:26:19 amWhats up? They dont disclose this relationship alongside the astroturfing.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 11:43:05 pm
content: Whatever i am writing here is my own stuff as a Tesla CAR owner. Nothing to do with my employment.When i write 'non stop' this means without stopping to sleep. Of course they stopped to pee and eat and charge the car.This was three owners that did this . Not Tesla themselves.Read it here :http://www.businessinsider.com/3-people-just-crossed-the-us-in-an-autopilot-tesla-in-58-hours-2015-10http://www.wired.com/2015/10/obviously-drivers-are-already-abusing-teslas-autopilot/clear now ?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 11:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 24, 2015, 11:43:05 pmThat doesnt wash in either the US or Australia:https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-askinghttps://www.accc.gov.au/business/advertising-promoting-your-businessYou need to disclose in clear and unambiguous manner your financial relationship with Tesla every time you promote them, and your regular misleading claims are just a straight violation of various laws.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 12:08:56 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 24, 2015, 11:55:46 pmWhich brings the unavoidable question, are Tesla engineers morally bankrupt?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 12:15:54 am
content: So you want me to add 5 pages of legalese to everything i write ...Besides : the FTC doc clearly states "If you mention a product you paid for yourself, there isn’t an issue."So here ya go:I bought the car myself, while is was working elsewhere. I'm not being sponsored in any way. I don't get any reward. Not even free air in the tires. Any comments i make are as a car owner, without any form of reward and irrespective of my place of employment.happy now ? so sad that post 5999 had to be about legal mumbo jumbo... the world really has become a stinkhole.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 12:21:32 am
content: From what I've heard, Tesla doesn't even give discounts or anything like that to employees. Perhaps the only benefit is knowing when major product revisions are due.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 12:25:27 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 25, 2015, 12:15:54 amThats to separate endorsements like Daves videos where the company has sent him a free product to endorse (or not) as Dave clearly explains in each video the terms on which the product is provided. It does not remove the requirement to identify yourself as an employee of the company.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 06:03:45 pm
content: FE has never tried to hide the fact that he is a Tesla engineer. He's said it many times. Any regular reader of this forum already knows this. It's not like he's a Tesla salesman working on comission. Everyone has and are entitled to opinions and biases. This is an internet forum, hardly an official media outlet pretending to be a place of unbiased reviews. The FTC could give a flying f**k about what is discussed here and nitpicking about disclosures anytime an employed engineer shares an opinion about one of their companies products they own is just a transparent smokescreen for the nitpickers own agenda.How do we know those critical af a product are not working as an engineer for a competitor? Should everyone who has an opinion here about any product be required to state their place of employment first?I for one like hearing insiders views about their companies products and take it as obvious that ANY opinion given here by anybody is biased in some way. And yes, that goes for this opinion as well^-^

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 06:07:58 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on October 25, 2015, 06:03:45 pmThe ethical thing to do is to disclose it in each anti competitor message or pro Tesla message like this one."Some of the readers already know" is not good enough.His lake of disclosure is systematic, not just a one time thing.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 06:19:56 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 25, 2015, 06:07:58 pmHe's posting on an internet forum, not pretending to give an unbiased opinion and he's not selling Tesla's. Your selective evoking of some imaginary ethical issue belies your motives given own well known anti-Tesla bias. One could just as easily say it is unethical for someone to criticise Tesla without disclosing their political affiliations. Either is absurd IMO and I would think that any advocate of free speech would agree.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 06:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on October 25, 2015, 06:19:56 pmNobody is calling for banning his speech so it's not a free speech issue.We criticise him for consistently posting pro his employer content without disclosing it.If you think that this practice is OK than we disagree on this one.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 06:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 25, 2015, 06:44:53 pmHmm, so you believe the only way to inhibit free speech is to ban it. OK - got it. One more thing we disagere on.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 01:17:21 am
content: And yet another thread devolves into a trivial, pointless and irrelevant argument due to one particular individual's compulsion to inject his mere personal opinion into every thread he can.I guess it is difficult making 4600 posts and also having valid, on topic content in those posts.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 01:32:01 am
content: What would you call one individual's compulsion to inject his own personal ignore list into every thread he posts in?QuoteWith practice you may get better at it.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 01:35:00 am
content: Quote from: cimmo on October 26, 2015, 01:17:21 amSome kind of virus must have hit this site, so much recent posting of noise/judgement/ideology. Maybe the server should be looked at? I'm here for fun and enjoyment.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 01:51:13 am
content: Do you really expect that everyone posts "OH HELLO DEAR I WORK FOR $COMPANY. DO NOT BE ALARMED JUST BECAUSE I QUITE LIKE MY EMPLOYERS PRODUCTS; IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THAT I STARTED WORKING THERE BECAUSE I LIKE THEIR STUFF. BY THE WAY WE HAVE A SPECIAL ON TEACUPS THIS WEEK, STOP BYWWW.SERIOUSLY.COMAND CHECK THEM OUT" in their signature?This is a goddamn electronics forum, and besides, everyone has a bias. I avoid ST products - because one of them had a really shitty datasheet which bit me (grrr, grumble). Thus I'm going to recommendany other solution.Unless people start actively advertising here - which is against guidelines anyhow - I don't care.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 01:58:22 am
content: Quote from: helius on October 26, 2015, 01:32:01 amDo YOU have anything pertinent to add to this thread - about Tesla's 'autopilot' feature?Or are you here, just like some others, to have an argument about trivialities?If so - if all you have to offer is noise, then I can add you to my sig (and I'll also tweak my notch filter).Quote from: helius on October 26, 2015, 01:32:01 amInjecting nothing but irrelevant off topic noise to a discussion is not something I want to 'get better at' doing.That's what the youtube comment section is for.However, in this case, since this thread has already been killed, something needed to be said about why it died.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 02:55:10 am
content: Quote from: ovnr on October 26, 2015, 01:51:13 amLook at this example from Intel:http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/legal/intel-social-media-guidelines.htmlDisclaimers do not have to be long or complicated, and if you don't want to have that sort of simple boilerplate in posting then don't discuss things you have an economic interest in!

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 08:54:50 am
content: I think they'd be much better off calling it "Auto-Steer" or "Automatic Lane Keeping" rather than "Autopilot". As others have mentioned, this feature isn't particularly new, with systems like Mercedes' Distronic Plus with Steering Assist already being avaliable for a few years.While it's true that this system operates similarly to an Aircraft's autopilot, I think it's very possible that many will assume "Autopilot" is the same as "Autonomous Driving", even though they are completely different.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 11:11:02 am
content: It is called autosteer. The suite of functions is called autopilot

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 11:48:36 am
content: Attempting to put this thread back on topic, I am interested to know why Tesla have not engineered this system with any GPS integration. From what I understand, it is a purely stand alone system, using on board sensors (optical/radar/ultrasonic?) only.It seems to me that in the short term, while this is a 'beta', then a perfect solution to all these events where Autosteer is being used against Tesla's recommendation is to have a whitelist of appropriate highways and the vehicle will only permit Autosteer if the GPS position correlates with that whitelist.Why haven't Tesla done this?Was it too difficult to integrate GPS functionality at this point in development?Is this a case of marketing superceding engineering?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 02:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 25, 2015, 12:15:54 amTesla is doing something unique, a high profile, a car manufacturer exclusively making electric cars. You have all eyes on you. Every misstep the company makes is going to be on the news, and going to be discussed, with people acting like (well) people.The fact that we are discussing it means we are interested, and most of the cases jealous. They are really good cars.Now, to offset all the good things I said, and return the balance, I'll put this here (wasnt self driving BTW):

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 03:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: cimmo on October 26, 2015, 11:48:36 amWhat happens when you can't get a signal, or the map thinks a left turn is following the road or vice versa (a very common occurrence with SatNavs), or it's expecting a 60 limit and it's gone down? I could see GPS being a useful addition to the tech but no matter if it's in a Tesla or any other vehicle it needs to work without.As a side note this isn't the first driver assist tech to cause problems with people who expect too much from it. Cruise controlcausedcrashes from people who thought it did more than maintain a constant speed...

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 04:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on October 26, 2015, 03:05:40 pmWe are not talking about making an AUTONOMOUS vehicle (yet), just something that can steer itself, sometimes - when everything is working properly. If any of those hypotheticals you suggested occur, then it can and should simply disable Autosteer. If all it's sources of information (including GPS) do not agree to a high enough level, then it just tells the driver to do the work (I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I cannot do that - drive it yourself).This software should never have been released without some automatic method to disable it in city streets and winding country roads. And using GPS position data to disable Autosteer on roads where this function is currently not safely capable of working reliably (as even Tesla themselves admit) would have been a viable solution.Which is why I asked that question - why didn't Tesla do this?

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 04:38:25 pm
content: Quote from: cimmo on October 26, 2015, 04:15:26 pmI never said we were. I said idiots will be idiots, always have been, and always will be.QuoteBecause as I said relying on GPS adds more chance of serious errors. Have you never used a SatNav or Google maps? If you have and never had one seriously mess up multiple times on a journey you're very, very lucky. FFS they all have warnings about not relying on them 100% and following local road laws but peoplestillblame them for their fuck ups. By your logic satellite navigation and cruise control should never have been introduced because idiots cause crashes using them incorrectly even after numerous warnings, or no vehicles should be allowed that don't automatically shut down when someone starts driving like a moron...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 04:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: cimmo on October 26, 2015, 11:48:36 amNo, it does use GPS. Watch the intro of autopilot. The GPS sensor is enhanced--whatever that means. Data is gathered and shared with the mothership as drivers use autosteer.I am surprised they have not geofenced it to be honest. It will probably come back and bite them.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 05:03:25 pm
content: Back to an earlier post. What should the performance standard for an autonomous vehicle be? The opinion was that it needed to be better than a very good driver, as measured by some undetermined metric. I don't understand why. An argument could be made that it would be criminal to not require autonomous driving if the performance is better than the average driver. If not required then more injuries and deaths will occur than would otherwise happen. I wouldn't want to be in the position of endorsing death and injury.This will be a difficult argument over the next couple of decades. Will people be tried for negligence if they choose not to use the autonomous driving function and someone is hurt? The metrics will be important because it has been demonstrated in numerous surveys that nearly all drivers think they are better than average. The insurance companies have data to show that to be incorrect. But the metrics for autonomous driving will be difficult to collect because the obvious measures - accidents/mile, fatalities/mile etc. take vast amounts of on the road operation to accumulate. How will all of these metrics apply to individual cases. Maybe the person involved really is one of the superior drivers. How would you prove that?

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 05:59:42 pm
content: Perhaps it's not all bad?From video description:"Was travelling a little under 45 mph. There was some rain, but roads were pretty dry. I was watching stopped traffic to my right.I did not touch the brake. Car did all the work. Sadly no audio, because I had an Uber passenger and Washington has strict privacy laws about recording conversations."

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 07:07:55 pm
content: From the video it certainly looks like a radar collision-avoidance system, like the one Mercedes offers.The possibility that autonomous driving technologies will be required is quite real:http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/06/09/ntsb-collision-avoidance-all-cars/28724575/

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 07:30:12 pm
content: I've been keeping my head down a bit after seeing as my topic seems to have stirred up a storm, thankfully now calmed.I'm curious about what this system actually feels like in practice, lane changing on indicator activation etc. Tesla have instructed drivers to keep their hands on the wheel, but it must be really weird to have it moving 'autonomously' in your grip, how strong is it, how easy to override etc. It just all sounds a bit counter intuitive.Looking again at the video that the BBC story cited, the one where the car hit bump or whatever and veered towards the oncoming car. OK the guy shouldn't have been using it on that road, but watching the video he only seems to have had about 1.5 seconds of bleeping to react and take control, presumably the same could happen on the freeway. I've driven the I-280 quite a lot between Sunnyvale and SFO and some parts are NOT a good road surface, potholes everywhere (even makes some of our UK roads look good). I'm wondering how it works in practice and whether comfortably cruising drivers might be required to take over control at very short notice without 'over-reacting' in the process.I guess it is something that has been thought through and documented, but feels like a trap for the unwary - presumably at some point Teslas will become hire cars in pollution conscious CaliforniaPresumably this also applies to all the other manufacturers' active steer systems that have been mentioned too.Not having had the opportunity to drive one (and probably not likely to), I'm just curious about the 'mechanics' of driving with such a system.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 11:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 29, 2015, 07:30:12 pmIt's implemented using the power steering motor, as the car uses electric power steering. Apparently it feels somewhat like heavier steering but anything more than a light movement will disengage the autopilot. It can detect whether your hand is on the wheel, it probably does this using micro movements and sensing the reaction force.The car didn't hit a bump in the road. The car was going up a hill into a curve and so the wheels had some bias that the AP was compensating for. When the AP disengaged the wheel jerked because the road started driving the car instead of the computer. This is why the autopilot function shouldn't be used on non divided highways until the software is improved.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 02:48:22 am
content: I saw today a Tesla on state route 85. License plate was "W EQ VA". Smells like an EE.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 02:57:05 am
content: I find it very curious how easily the regulator in my own county so readily waved this through.Do they just not want to be seen to oppose something fashionable or is it a question of Elon knowing the right secret handshakes?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 12:16:25 pm
content: QuoteAh, thanks, I suspected it might be something like that (similar to the brake pedal immediately disengaging cruise control). Yes, I suppose it's really easy to implement with the modern motorized steering systems (as opposed to the older pump driven ones). I guess setting the optimum manual steering input threshold it is going to be the key to getting it to feel right.QuoteHmm, yes I fully understand that one. Maybe still asking a lot of the intelligence of the 'average' driver (taking a cross section of the driving population). Maybe drivers buying cars with such systems are a bit above the average.Let's not go there!

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2015, 09:46:03 am
content: Sure enough, some idiot has taken it too far:But why have Tesla permitted that possibility? Passenger seats routinely have sensors to detect if someone is sitting in them, why no sensor in the driver seat to disable this stupidity?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2015, 03:00:24 pm
content: I won't be surprised one bit if Tesla release a quick software update that makes the AP disengage if the driver's seat is empty. People like that ruin it for everyone