Best Sub $2k PCB Design Software? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 03:33:30 pm
content: I would like to start doing a little bit of simple commercial PCB design work and need to purchase a commercial package. I've used the free version of Eagle for a few years on and off and think it's OK, but there are a lot of other cheaper (or free) alternatives out there, such as DipTrace and KiCad, and I'm wondering what you all think is the best value for the money?Unfortunately I can't afford software like Altium or Cadence -- it's just too expensive for me right now..Appreciate your advice!

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 05:58:20 pm
content: I use KiCad. It's free. The learning curve is a bit steeper and there is more manual work than something like Altium, but I find it sufficient for most needs. It will probably not serve if you are doing serious RF or have other special requirements, but for basic 2 or 4 layer layout and capture it's fine.

author: Araho
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 09:40:28 pm
content: When you say commercial PCB Design Work, do you mean that you will be designing a PCB for sale commercially, or that you will be renting out your skills in PCB design to companies? If the latter, you should really try to save up for Altium or one of the other high-quality software packages (seethisthread). If the first, then you should try different packages and see which you like the best.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 10:06:12 pm
content: I've been using Proteus (UK) for years, and it is the easiest, most functional PCB proggie I've ever tried. Excellent upgradepaths (#pins), so you can start out small to see if you like it. Plus it has all the bells and whistles options, if you need them.

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 11:25:43 pm
content: Quote from: Araho on March 25, 2014, 09:40:28 pmHopefully both.Altium is the only professional package that is even remotely "affordable," but is still about $7,000 (which is way outside of my price range).I've found a bunch of posts on here talking about an entry-level (or "lite") version of Altium, but can't seem to find anything about it on their website.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 11:45:09 pm
content: I use diptrace and love it. Maybe not suitable if you need serpentines, etc but for 2-4 layers it's totally fine

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 11:49:34 pm
content: I like diptrace but the lack of simple align top, align bottom, right, center, etc really has me screaming at it sometimes....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2014, 02:07:24 am
content: Quote from: n3wbie on March 25, 2014, 11:25:43 pmAFAIK Cadence (Orcad / PCB designer) is in the same price range for the entry level tools. If you get Orcad be sure to get the CIS option (parts + footprints from a database) though. It's a major time & error saver because you can link every part to the right footprint and creating a BOM with manufacturer, Digikey, Mouser, etc order numbers is just a matter of a mouseclick.

author: kikib
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 08:40:41 am
content: Quote from: n3wbie on March 25, 2014, 03:33:30 pmEagle is very powerful once you learn it properly and has advanced features necessary for high-speed PCB design. The component library is rather extensive and tested well. I personally use Eagle and think it's the best value for money compared to the other packages you mentioned.So I guess my questions to you is, what complexity PCB's are you trying to design? Do you need advanced features?

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 08:13:46 am
content: I personally wouldn't use a dime on PCB design software due to kicad. If I would have enough budget I would go fo Altium. If you really want to spend money but not enough to buy Altium then I'd go for DipTrace. Definitely not EAGLE (this coming from an EAGLE user at work).

author: kikib
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 11:59:17 am
content: Quote from: Dago on March 28, 2014, 08:13:46 amEagle has high-speed PCB design features and once you get used to the workflow it is very fast. It is closest to Altium in that particular regard. I'm curious what things you dislike about Eagle?

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 02:19:43 pm
content: Thanks for all of your replies!After careful consideration, I've decided not to buy Eagle. From what I've read, it sounds like Altium is in a different league than Eagle and that is what I need if I really want to do professional PCB design. So what I've decided to do is purchase the student version of Altium ($119/yr) and the standard version of Diptrace ($75, 300 pin limit).I really wish I could use Altium for commercial work, but at least this way I can become proficient with it, so if/when I'm able to buy it I will have a running start. In the meantime, I can use Diptrace for any simple PCB design work I'm able to get.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2014, 02:04:33 pm
content: Quote from: n3wbie on March 28, 2014, 02:19:43 pmI agree with your decisions.Altium offers so very much more than Eagle ........ whether you will use the advanced features, only time will tell.I own both DipTrace and Altium Designer 6.9For boards of say 60 to 80 components, I generally use Diptrace Schematic, then port to DipTrace PCB. I then set out the board size & component layout (automatic, just lock the components in place that need to be somewhere specific) in DipTrace.I use the software "freerounting" as an alternative to the DipTrace autorouter (it does a better job). I check the pcb against the schematic in DipTrace for any discrepancies.I then export the routed pcb via the P-Cad filter into Altium 6.9 (you can export the schematic from DipTrace to Altium as well if you want).I then finish off the pcb in Altium 6.9, then send the standard Altium file off for prototyping. Altium gives you more control over almost every aspect of the pcb design than DipTrace.I have spent too much time in the past trying to port schematics to the pcb in Altium. It has driven me crazy & I find the above steps much faster & stress free.If you are looking for a professional job designing pcbs, you can't go wrong with Altium as many larger companies have settled on Altium as their standard platform. Remember, they have no idea how long their employees will be with them & need a common platform for previous designs to be worked on by new employees.PS: Don't fork out the larger dollars for Altium until you are actually going to earn some good money from it. In this way, you can claim the cost against your income taxAdded: Why don't you request the educational version from DipTrace? You will need a university email address to receive the code I believe. Then use this to come up to speed & just pay for a commercial license the day you finish your first paying job.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2014, 04:34:33 pm
content: Quote from: kikib on March 28, 2014, 11:59:17 amI just generally think EAGLE is quite obnoxious to use and has a ton of quirks. Footprints are tied to component libraries and copying them around is very cumbersome. Then it's just chock full of weird and annoying design choices like restring which you can't disable, tracks which you cannot drag and maintain 45 degree angles etc.What kind of "high-speed PCB design features" does EAGLE have (not sure what you mean)? I cannot think of any major differences compared to other tools. Due to cumbersome library/footprint management I'd rate it as slower to use than competitors. If you mean like actual high-speed digital logic/RF design features, those it has practically none. I think it can display track length but that's about it.

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2014, 04:38:17 pm
content: QuoteWell, DipTrace is only $75 bucks (or a few hundred for more pins), which isn't that big of a deal. And I actually am going to use the free version until I get commercial work (which may be a while).

author: kikib
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2014, 03:52:19 am
content: Quote from: Dago on March 29, 2014, 04:34:33 pmI agree with the cumbersome library management. Copying and duplicating parts to make new variations should be a lot easier and is one area I'd like to see improved. Also lack of maintaining 45 degree tracks is a bit annoying.When I said high-speed PCB design features I meant differential pair routing and trace length matching. You can also display length of tracks and other statistics.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 06:28:54 am
content: QuoteAre there any software choices that are free or in the same relatively low cost price category as Eagle (say $1k or less) that offer "high-speed digital logic/RF design features" superior to Eagle's differential trace length matching and routing?Sure, if you spend $7k on Altium or something you might have some of those features, but does DipTrace or KiCAD give you those features at a level superior to Eagle? If not, what are you bitching about?Given the price of Eagle, and the very generous Light version which provides a good try-before-you-buy opportunity to evaluate the software prior to purchasing it for commercial work (or just use it all you want for free, if you're a not-for-profit hobbyist and assuming the layouts you're working with are 2 layer max and fit into the space allowed), I think is very good.Especially since it easily installs and runs on Mac or Windows or Linux and without any stuffing around and fighting with it to make it usable, especially on a Mac.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 10:34:05 am
content: Quote from: LukeW on April 10, 2014, 06:28:54 amRF design features are highly overrated. There a lots of microstrip, stripline and differential pair calculators online. Just punch in the number and you know trace width(s) and spacing. Nothing special about it and any PCB package will do as long as it can show the length of a trace.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 03:02:44 pm
content: Quote from: LukeW on April 10, 2014, 06:28:54 amBut if you are going to layout larger boards, Proteus has some very competitive pricing if you use less than 2000 pins.And ...................... Proteus is MUCH easier to drive than Eagle & much more powerful in the areas of component auto-placement & global editing.And yes, I use both Altium Designer & Diptrace for work

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2014, 11:23:22 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG+1

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 12:49:11 am
content: Quote from: subolg123 on April 11, 2014, 11:52:08 pmHow many component pins (excluding vias) is the board?I would like to compare the cost to do it with Proteus.

author: bronson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 01:27:21 am
content: Weird that there are so many user interface prima donnas on here. Are you engineers?Once you set it up properly, Eagle gets the job done. Good schematic/board forward/back annotation, good libraries, good online support, decent package creating/editing. Yes, the interface sucks, but it only takes a day or two to get used to it. And yes, if you have oddball pad/restring requirements, then it might fail you. I haven't run into that yet.One day Kicad will be the winner. That's not today. If you use it for paid work, you'll burn a lot of time figuring out workarounds and bugs. Hell, just building the latest version is an adventure.I only lay out a few boards a year so I can't justify the expensive stuff (paid work so no way I'm using a phony edu license). And Kicad is getting close to eating Eagles lunch but it's not there yet. In between those two extremes, Eagle is a decent, pragmatic, cross-platform solution.

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 02:00:14 am
content: Well, I've been using Altium a little bit and I have to say, it blows Eagle out of the water. Period.I just wish they would release a cheaper version (maybe around $1k) with a limited board size or with a few advanced features removed, etc.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 02:16:12 am
content: QuoteYeah I agree, only once you get used to an interface can you say if it is good or bad. The fact that many people successfully use it means it is quite workable.Personally I did get turned off by the eagle UI, but I was more worried by the old school windowing framework they use, it made me think it may be full of GUI weirdness, so I moved on. This may have been unjustified but I will never know.A couple of examples of user interfaces that do work successfully but need some learning. Analogue Clock, Windows 8.Professional users of software can easily deal with any supposed UI quirks once they get the hang of that piece of software. That UI quirk may save a lot of engineering time, but it's hard to get it past marketing though.

author: kikib
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 02:26:39 am
content: Quote from: subolg123 on April 11, 2014, 11:52:08 pmNice work there, I enjoy seeing other's designs as it's interesting. I see you have many similar blocks so I'm assuming you have multiple channels of something (audio?). I'm curious what you used to generate the PCB image, maybe gerbv from the gerbers?

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 03:16:34 am
content: Quote from: subolg123 on April 12, 2014, 01:10:38 amOk, so more than 2000 pins which means that the unlimited version of Proteus would be required ............ at a cost of US$2022. This is 3.7 times more expensive than the USD$549 you paid for your version of EagleI'm much rather use Proteus, but I do understand where you're coming from.

author: bronson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 05:21:17 am
content: Quote from: n3wbie on April 12, 2014, 02:00:14 amAnd I've been driving a Tesla and I have to say, it blows the Nissan Leaf out of the water. Period.So?(and, i wish...)

author: kikib
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2014, 06:35:17 am
content: Quote from: subolg123 on April 12, 2014, 03:35:20 amI know Altium provides tools to automate placement and routing of blocks (channels) like you've got on your board as I've used the feature at work but I've not figured it out with Eagle yet. Is there a trick to it or did you simply place and route each of the blocks individually while trying to make them look same?

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 08:15:14 am
content: Compared to KiCAD, Altium is a steaming pile unless you work for Apple and need 4 dimensional flex circuits with BGA components.

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 02:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: scientist onTodayat 06:15:14 PMWould you like to elaborate on what you mean."steaming pile" does not make sense - Is it good or?Is it one thing that is good or several things?

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 02:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: scientist on April 19, 2014, 08:15:14 amHave you ever used Altium? I'm going to assume you haven't, because otherwise your statement is just madI've barely gotten started using Altium, but I can already tell you that it's in an entirely different league than Eagle, KiCAD, Diptrace, etc. It's not even really fair to compare them, they are so far apart.

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2014, 03:11:34 pm
content: Use Kicad (been using it for around 7 years) and then save up for Altium. Don't waste your money on any of the pin limited or board size limited packages. I've spent money in the past on Ultiboard, Quickroute, Niche software and Eagle. Decided it's best to invest in the best you can afford and have done with it.Kicad is fine for ALL my simple quick and dirty PCB's and I can work VERY quickly in it. I use it all the time at work and recomend it to everyone. Altium is my number one choice for more complex stuff.David.PS Regarding RF work Kicad has a set of built in Microwave traces on a toolbar and one the developers are currently working on a trace length matching feature.

author: mucek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 11:23:43 am
content: I am using Target 3001 (http://ibfriedrich.com/index.htm).Pretty powerful program, good price and very intuitive and simple to use. After opening my own electronics development company I tried several programs before purchasing decision (in the end - it's not cheap!) including Altium, Target, and Eagle. Did 3 projects in all programs and then decision was pretty simple.Altium didn't impress me (has really many options, but I don't need 90% of them and it's really expensive) and Eagle ... Well, it just doesn't fit me (way of "thinking") and doesn't look "nice". I found Target "by mistake" (when checking e-wheelie project) and after starting playing with it, it really impressed me.There is a free non-commercial version avalible (with limited number of pins), which you may try.Regards,Gregor

author: Feynman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 08:45:17 pm
content: Is anyone using Pulsonix? Seems to be a good bang for the buck at first glance.

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 09:30:21 pm
content: Hi8 year back i used pulsonix , then someday made a complex 4 layer board for a customerone complete i try to generate Gerber ,surprise gerber output was not what was on screenpulsonix support was not able to quickly fix it ,so for avoid lose my contract and customerneed to redraw from scratch in P-CAD ,since pulsonix not export in in any documented formatso once a desing was make in pulsonix you stuck whit it ..big problem whit pulsonix was that beta tester was way to much "fan" and no one use it for big complex thingfor reals big project so you may quickly fall in unexplored zone whit unpredictable resulti still have a valid license but not have used it for very longtime..honestely even if i was a big fan of Zuken and some license start a bit under 2000$ i think that altium was a good solutionand normally it will come whit a lower priced version soon ..but keep away of ANY cad that not export in ASCII file formatfinally you may try cadstar herehttp://www.zuken.com/en/products/pcb-design/cadstar/resources/express300 pins and 50 components , yep it zuken learning curve was sharp ,but once you knot it it very hard to beat

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 01:20:33 am
content: Quote from: Feynman on April 21, 2014, 08:45:17 pmI looked at the demo package about 18 months ago (remember you can't save anything with the demo package), but decided that the UK developed Proteus was still better value for the features offered & usability. Remember the unlimited pin version of Pulsonix is still over $5K (so 2.5 times more than Proteus unlimited).http://www.element14.com/community/message/27128?tstart=0Proteus is used by tens of thousands of professionals who feel that Altium is too expensive (or offers features they don't require) for their needs.For work I use Altium & DipTrace & used Proteus last year which was owned by the company I completed the Design work for. I was really impressed with its menus & functionality. A pleasure to use.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 12:16:23 pm
content: Can Proteus do differential routing and measure track lengths?I had an old demo of 7.9 and it didn't seem to have it, which Eagle does, which is why I continued to use Eagle, but Proteus is nice and quite easy to use!

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 01:17:31 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on April 22, 2014, 12:16:23 pmSure can:4th post down in the link below shows the screen shot:http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/differential-pairs-in-proteus-ares.133038/

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 02:22:26 pm
content: Hi DerekGThanks for the reply,I didn't know Proteus could do that, I guess it can't do differential pair routing like Eagle can though?

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 07:50:38 pm
content: Quote from: scientist on April 19, 2014, 08:15:14 amAs someone who has used KiCAD for a few months, then Altium for almost 2 years, I can only reply with:

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 01:43:11 am
content: Well, for a small project, kicad was way easier to learn and a way smaller download.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 11:27:40 am
content: Quote from: scientist on April 23, 2014, 01:43:11 amThat I don't doubt that. Many programs are easy to learn at first and severely limiting shortly after. And an added advantage of actually being legal to freely download, not just smaller.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 12:20:53 pm
content: sacherjj,You would recommend Altium then I presume?(If it was under 2k!)

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 12:33:23 pm
content: If I had access to Altium under $2k, it would be no contest. Altium is under $2k per year. There is a pretty big hump to get past all the learning for Altium, but I have been surprised how much is out there and indexed by Google.Before I had access to it, I liked DipTrace. KiCAD is not a bad product, but as with many open source designs, the UI was annoying.It is unfortunate that Altium is being stupid about the low end support. A $1k version of Altium, would totally change the equation.Many things in Altium are annoying at first. Until you understand them. Like Rooms. What are these stupid red things doing on here. Until you lay out a 16 channel design and copy and paste the layout of a channel onto the other channels. It is like magic. A complex routing, duplicated 15 times.The main thing that even lets Eagle enter the conversation is Inertia.

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 01:56:06 pm
content: It's really a shame Altium doesn't have an inexpensive version for hobbyists like Eagle does (pin or space limited). My university teaches Eagle in courses because there's the free non-commercial version, so Altium is losing all of these future engineers as potential customers.People use what they're familiar with, so if hobbyists and engineering students use Eagle for years because of the free version, then it makes sense that if they get a commission to make a PCB they're going to use Eagle and not shell out $7k to use software they've never even seen before (you can't even download a trial of Altium without going through a process of speaking with a rep first).I guess Altium knows what they're doing, but it sure seems to me like they'd be opening themselves up to a whole new market if they would release a sub $1k version with a few limitations (like limited pins, board area, or high speed design features removed).

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 01:44:29 am
content: Quote from: sacherjj on April 23, 2014, 11:27:40 amI'll learn Altium in a few years when I actually need to, and use KiCAD for now. I'm not doing anything fancy now; plus, it's a big credo body for small projects to be able to say you used an open-source EDA program. By the time I actually need to know Altium I will be learning the newest version, not trying to forget the quirks of an old one.

author: Obi_Kwiet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 04:32:48 am
content: I've found Eagle very crude and frustrating. If it had an inference engine like Sketch Up or any decent 3D cad program, it would be far better. But without that, or anyway to create patterns, you are left manually keying in the coordinates for footprints. It turns what should be a one minute long job into a twenty minute job. Other elements of the interface just seem clunky, inconsistent or half assed. I think I'll give KiCad a chance next. I know it has it's own problems, but I hear there is a lot of investment into it right now.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 12:23:50 pm
content: I'm working with Ultiboard for almost 10 years now.Together with Multisim, it's a very powerful program in my opinion.Powerful but waaaaay to expensive.There are also some really annoying bugs I'm having in the newest version 13.Sometimes,the auto zooming on finding a part doesn't work (it just zooms somewhere) and the clearance is messed up sometimes (even though it's correct in the settings)Not a big deal with small projects, but a different story with a four layer DSP design with a lot of things going on.And this is really what I don't get about those expensive software programs.Sometimes some really basic instructions are buggy as hell.The point is, that I'm looking for an alternative for years, but haven't found any program that is as fast as Ultiboard.Because the great thing I like about Ultiboard is the quick way you can add, place, copy components, without the stupid restrictions some other programs have.(like it's not possible to copy a multi part component or something, which is really annoying if you have like a 6 way output buffer)Even changing the value is just double clicking the component and directly hit the numpad keys.Very fast and very intuitive.I still wonder how people can make a big schematics when you need to scroll trough a long list all the time to place a component or something.(or even adding the value)And why on earth choice some programs to use odd short-keys?(even for normal copy-pasting)Anyway, like I said, I'm still looking for a free or less expensive alternative.Still don't like the popular ones, unfortunately

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2014, 02:59:52 pm
content: I was going to start a new thread as even $2k is more than I want to spend but on the other hand free/super cheap versions are probably too restrictive.I'd like to get a package for around the $500 or £350 mark without major restrictions - it will be mainly for my own use but if I sell some boards I don't want to feel I'm breaking some licence agreement.From reading threads on this forum and elsewhere the candidates are (I've selected here the nearest compatible levels price wise, not the options I'd necessarily go for - for instance I'd probably only go for the level 1 on Proteus to start with which is 1000 pins):Proteus level 1+ (2000 pins 1 shape-based power plane per layer )$650 approx +VATDip Trace Extended (2000 pins 6 layers)$595Eagle Standard without the Autorouter (6 layers 16x10cm)$575They all seem to have different restrictions. Comparing 2000 pins to 16x10 board size is difficult. How much of a restriction is having only one shape-based power plane per layer? (I'm not sure I even know what that means.)The general advice is to try all the options in their free/cheap versions but as I am going to have to learn which ever one I get I'd really rather just learn one and base my decision on long term usefulness rather than short term ease of learning. Once I invest the time and effort in learning one, as well as any initial cost, I'm likely to want to stick to it so I need to decide first.Proteus is the more expensive option but the users on this forum and elsewhere seem very happy with it (unlike a lot of Eagle users) and the simulation options for microprocessors look like they might be useful for embedded. DipTrace users also seem a happy bunch but I get the impression that Proteus is a bit more extensive.Any comments from people who have used more than one would be very helpful and in particular are there any Proteus users who can tell me how much of a restriction this power plane business is ?

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2014, 03:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on May 03, 2014, 02:59:52 pmI own Altium 6.9 & the latest version of DipTrace. I have used Proteus quite extensively on a 4 month outside contract some 18 months ago.Altium is the most powerful (but has a pretty steep learning curve if you are just starting out), then Proteus, then DipTrace.Of the three, I like Proteus the most. It is quite intuitive & does not have the learning curve of Altium. It also has fewer quirks than DipTrace.Power Planes - these are extensive copper areas which are connected (normally) to either a power source, a signal source or to ground. The most usual use is to connect them to ground to reduce noise emanating from the board & to reduce the cost of board manufacture (remember board manufacturers must reclaim, reuse then dispose of the copper which all costs money when you get into volume boards).Restricted Proteus versions allow one power plane per layer & it must run edge to edge. Whether this restricts you will depend on the type of designs you do. 90% of my designs would have a power plane on the bottom later connected to ground & perhaps another one on the SMD layer (also connected to ground). So, this restriction would not normally affect me.When designers get into high voltage circuitry, they often elect not to have a power plane connected to ground around the HV components - for obvious reasons. This restriction would affect these designs (mind you, you could manually add in fill areas to your hearts content - just takes more time).The other area where power planes get used a lot is on multilayer boards. Two layers would be used normally with a third layer being the most used power supply voltage & the fourth layer being used for ground. This significantly reduces the real estate required to power up chips/micros/components as you can drop power down to these via blind & buried vias.The restricted versions of Proteus allow you to use 16 layers & so you can take full advantage of power planes & ground planes as described in my paragraph above.Now for the cruncher. Are you going to design boards as a contractor for other companies? If you are then you will probably need Altium at some stage as it is slowly becoming the defacto standard for high end work. Be prepared to outlay $9K if you order before the end of June & 11K if you order in July.I hope this info helps.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2014, 03:59:48 pm
content: Thanks DerekG for the helpful information.I have no plans to contract at present - if I did I'd probably bite the bullet and go the super-expensive Altium route. I'm in academia at present - my first degree and much early experience was in Electronics but I'm now in Computer Science. Electronics for me is more than a hobby in that I want to keep my hand in and educate myself for possibly moving back into it but it is not fully professional hence the funding level is what I feel I can justify to myself (and my family) as training. Given that, it would be nice to use a package for which the change to Altium in future wouldn't require major re-learning.I have almost zero experience of board layout as my professional electronics experience was in monolithic microwave integrated circuits (so I do have some experience of laying out ICs with transmission lines as well as active components and with multi-layers including via holes so it is perhaps not that different). One thing that puts me off Eagle is that it seems to do things in a unique (quirky) way so from the self-education point of view I'd rather use a package that takes a more main-stream approach.From what you say, the power plane restriction in Proteus is not too onerous. Proteus is attractive as they are a UK company so I can easily ring them up for support.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 02:02:54 am
content: Quote from: jpb on May 03, 2014, 03:59:48 pmNow you mention that you are studying, you have another option which is pretty inexpensive.According to the post below you can own an academic version of Altium for just US$119/year (no VAT as they will send it to you from China/USA/Australia). You do need a uni email address to receive the licence file & you will have to provide Altium with a copy of your course details (Computer Science will be just fine). When you finish your degree, hit up Altium for a better price if you wish to continue with it. I've heard of people getting substantial discounts if they have owned/used previous versions.(to be directed to this actual post - copy & paste the entire link into your browser)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/best-sub-$2k-pcb-design-software/msg414690/#msg414690

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 04:53:59 am
content: KiCAD is completely unlimited in the number of layers and size of board space you can use.1That, to me, sets it far ahead of all other free EDA software.To be totally clear, excepting the FPGA development tools, fancy autorouting algos and other gimmicks that maybe 1% of users ever touch, Altium is no better than KiCAD. Anyone who says otherwise has not fully learned KiCAD and/or refuses to adapt their workflow, due to laziness.2That, or they're in the 1% that is required by their employer to use Altium.I find KiCAd comparable toLaTeX.Yes, KiCAD and LaTeX have somewhat unfamiliar interfaces for noobs and those used to "professional" tools like Altium and M$ Word, but in the end they usually make a more beautiful result, are less buggy, and are more efficiently written.1Within reason. Obviously you can't make a board that's 64 layers deep, since that isn't manufacturable with current technology.2I will be the first to admit that I refuse to change my workflow, at least at this time, from KiCAD to Altium or god forbid Eagle. I have used Altium (the full version with all the bells and whistles) and its most basic functions are buggy as all hell. The interface is hideous and the bloat of 7GB (and the price) is unacceptable given that they didn't include modules/parts for every single component in existence.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 04:58:30 am
content: QuoteHi, you should probably mention what version of Altium you are referring to, I can't imagine all versions would be this bad.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 05:21:41 am
content: Quote from: scientist on May 04, 2014, 04:53:59 amYou cannot even change the pcb background colour from that of black with KiCAD.As Henry Ford said "you can have any colour you want as long as it is black."The autorouter in Altium work fairly well. Yes there is some cleaning up to do afterwards, but it does save a heap of time when working on complex boards.In fact, I manually place & lock all components that need to be in a specific location (ie connectors, switches, leds etc), then use the autoplacer for everything else with EXCELLENT results. As long as you set up its clearance parameters & the grid, it does a fantastic job.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 05:23:45 am
content: It was Altium Designer 2014 as far as I can remember. I uninstalled it after a few weeks of trying it out, so I don't have the exact build number.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 05:44:29 am
content: Quote from: DerekG on May 04, 2014, 05:21:41 amYou're free to invert your screen colors. I find black nicer as I don't particularly enjoy staring at a flashlight for long periods of time.Quote from: DerekG on May 04, 2014, 05:21:41 amThe crappy built-in autorouter in KiCAD has been replaced with apretty nice one, and while not particularly fast it is effective. As with Altium (and pretty much everything else) there is always some cleaning up to do.Quote from: DerekG on May 04, 2014, 05:21:41 amKiCAD has the same autoplacing function. If you put the same amount of good setting-up of grids/clearance parameters in KiCAD as you already do in Altium, you'd get about the same result. My main issue with the critics of KiCAD is that they expect that they'll have to put no effort into learning KiCAD, even though they spent hours learning Altium and simply rely on muscle memory to do simple tasks.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on May 04, 2014, 02:02:54 amI'm a post-doc rather than a student and my current contract will end in October so I'm not sure if I qualify (some companies, like Microsoft for example, include staff with students in most educational offers and some don't).Thanks for the heads up though, I can just ask giving them the full facts and see what they say.

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on May 03, 2014, 03:35:57 pmIs the price for Altium going up? When I looked into it recently, it was 7k.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on May 04, 2014, 01:01:16 pmIf you tell Altium that you want to do some design work as part of your doctorate you should be fine (can you weave it into your studies even in a very small way)? My understanding is that the educational version will operate for 12 months from the date of activation. That will give you until this time next year to work out if you want to continue with it.If you can't bring yourself to say this, then perhaps reconsider Proteus again. Just take the cheapest version & pay the difference if you find you need to upgrade over the next year or so.Just my 2c worth (again).

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: n3wbie on May 04, 2014, 01:10:32 pmYes, according to the post below. Remember you have to pay the US$1750 maintenance & support fee on top of the purchase price. This will bring the cost of Altium 14 to just a tad under US$10Khttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-designer-new-pricing-model-and-high-end-low-end-tool-in-development/msg434149/#msg434149

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 08:30:41 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on May 04, 2014, 01:12:42 pmThis is the approach I'll probably take. I like to keep my life simple. I've contacted Proteus to see if I qualify for their educational discount but if I don't the price difference isn't enormous.

author: BloodyCactus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:25:24 pm
content: Myself, I just paid up for the DipTrace 1000 pins. I really wanted to pay for Eagle but $1000 is just too much for me to spend on something that is a hobby, since I outgrew the 6x4" board size.. Well DipTrace was the only other option.I spent time on Proteus but the demo does not let you save, trying to evaluate without being able to save is a nightmare!

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: BloodyCactus on May 05, 2014, 02:25:24 pmDipTrace offer pretty good support which is a bonus (even better than Proteus).The best way to overcome not being able to save is to use Windows "Hibernate" rather than "Shutdown" ........ but yes I agree there must be a better way to offer the demo version.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 11:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: DerekGBack in the early days, they had an incredible student / free eval (with save) policy. I had several students / users hooked on it.I nearly became a distributor as well. No idea what happened several years back, but it all ended. New owners?Anyway, I've used it since they started (and tried most others), and absolutely prefer it. I do 50-200 PCBs a year

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 11:09:51 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on May 05, 2014, 11:01:54 pmYes, I agree. Of all the pcb packages I've looked at over the years, Proteus provides the biggest punch for the smallest bucks (US$250 for the pin limited version up to US$2K for the unlimited version).The next step up is huge ........... an extra US$6K for Altium 14 (soon to become an extra US$8K in July with the AD14/AD15 price rise).

author: BloodyCactus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 11:12:37 pm
content: I believe they still do steep student discounts in the EU? I see lots and lots, heaps, of EU vids on youtube for Proteus.It looked pretty good, I was not really interested in the simulation and Proteus seemed more concerned about that than the schematic/pcb layout.. thats the feeling I had.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 01:14:23 am
content: Quote from: BloodyCactus<sniff> ... they've abandoned their remote penal colonies then ? :-(Quote from: BloodyCactusMy take on this is - The schematic/pcb has been pretty dern good for ages, with mostly eveything you could possibly needsorted out years ago. Stuff like autorouting / simulation are very complex and reasonably newish developments.They did the "right" thing and made them clip-on packages, so you can decide IF you need them and what level you want.Plus, being pretty intense to develop, Labcentre would want to recover costs / make a profit from them.Given that the core hasn't changed much over the last years and that you don't HAVE to pay for yearly support, I knowthis model has come back to bite them ! :-) earning wise. I pay support (on a few sites) ONCE every few years (after theyoffer a huge discount :-) ) ... hmmm maybe I'm the problem :-)

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 10:36:17 pm
content: Sadly I don't qualify for the Proteus education discount (I e-mailed them to find out and they said no) - I guess you have to be a student and not a post-doc (a lot of companies are more flexible on this).The single user educational discount is only 20% anyway - the big discounts are for multi-user educational licenses.