Online tech bullies? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 07:54:35 am
content: NOT EEVblog, but I've noticed on some sites & forums, that when a relative newcomer - regardless of the depths of their knowledge - there are long time 'lurkers', who may also have valuable experience, but can't bear to have someone else receiving positive feedback on the site.Isn't human nature a strange beast.What's their problem?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 08:13:27 am
content: That's too vague. Let's say you had a question "How to check if that socket in the wall has power?". You can receive plenty of positive feedback for "stick your fingers in there and if it tickles, then there is power" from other noobs, but you will obviously get some flack from someone experienced.Example above is too primitive, of course, but it can be translated to almost any field and topic.There are so many bad advices given on Arduino forums, that it is surprising how little "bullying" is going on.And people giving positive feedback are often giving it based on the fact that advice worked for them, not how good that advice is in general.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 11:45:48 am
content: There are a number of problems when it comes to beginners and online forums and sometimes this can lead to short tempers. The main problem is that people don't do their research before posting their question, if they did then they would find that either a) the solution to their problem is common knowledge and available on Google or b) the question has been asked countless times before and they can't be bothered to use the forums search function. Some examples:1) How do I make a dipole antenna for short wave? There are thousands of pictures and hundreds of descriptions all showing the same dipole antenna with 33 feet on each leg and some ladder line going down to the transceiver/receiver.2) I have a 12V 20A power supply, can I use it to power my 12V 2A equipment? A question which is basic electronics and, again, amply covered on Google. As an alternative you can also experiment and see what happens when you place a 2A load on a 20A supply.3) I've just built my project and it doesn't work, HELP ME!! Well, it would be good if you could do some basic fault finding first, describe what you've done and the symptoms that you see or don't see. We are not mind readers.4) How does (x) work? Start by reading the manual or looking it up on the Internet, then get back to us.I spend a lot of time in the beginners section of EEVBlog and the quality of questions asked can be very low and maybe people now expect everything to be handed to them on a silver plate rather than actually doing a little work. In such an environment it's not surprising that newcomers have a hard time and sometimes I have to walk away rather than write something unkind.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 11:58:25 am
content: Good references!I guess the direction I was referring to - was more directed toward micros and software projects.A question is asked, with a plethora of inane responses, and a sprinkling of well thought answers... some with a worked example. (Some of the questions don't even deserve an answer!)Along comes the know-it-all bully, that puts down earlier well developed replies - despite there always being many ways to solve the problem... some more elegantly than theirs. They can't stand the idea that another 'helper' challenges their 'supremacy' in mediocrity!It just concerns me that legitimate newbies, asking legitimate questions may get the idea that 'all' help is hostile, and you can't trust anyone.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 12:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on May 05, 2016, 11:58:25 amThat's life whether online or not..... you can elect to ignore them....

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 12:28:43 pm
content: QuoteIf their search engine is working, they'll figure out the internet is a little bigger than any one forum or site.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 12:32:27 pm
content: There are two amateur radio sites in the US that are not only hostile to newcomers but they are also hostile toward females.It's their loss...

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 12:48:07 pm
content: The forums with attitude that I see are the Electricians and Gas ones, where they don't want to discuss how to do anything because it takes a job away from them, and their trade organisations make this worse by inventing more and more convoluted rules in order to justify their own existence.The rest of the time they bait each other by trying to trip up other qualified tradespeople, by being pedantic over those same convoluted rules.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:54:29 pm
content: Nothing worse than a technical smart arse know-it-all prick.I will never forget when visited McGraths in Melbourne in 1979 to buy a 6X5 valve ("vacuum tube" to foreigners) for my old Kikusui oscilloscope to replace a valve that had an open circuit heating element. As I was purchasing the valve for $2.20, some smart arse stranger next to me out aloud so all could hear "Huh, it's a rectifier. Why don't you just use a diode? Don't you know anything about electronics! Just use a diode!!!! I guess we all had to be beginners once. Ha ha." I was acutely embarrassed and intimidated. I would give a $1000 to meet that moron today and see what HE has done with electronics compared to me in our careers. I would top it off with some free direct contact counselling.About 6 years ago I worked with a software contractor who got VERY agitated out loud if you did not know something he did. People skills zero. Any wonder his wife divorced him. He never got on with anyone. Last I heard they were about to give him the boot, but he left anyway.Occasionally you get smart-arse yuppies speaking crap to get ahead. One I really dislike was overused by "Mr Figjam", a manager at IBM was, "Show me the metrics!". He other B.S. speak consisted of "Let's take it offline" and an ad-nauseum ofacronyms. It worked for him. Despite not being too clever, he played the game and became a 3th level manager. But real technical people rarely went anywhere in IBM.Thanks for reading my rant. Now,SHOW ME THE METRICS!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:06:21 pm
content: One of the problems is that for the vast majority of us the use of these forums is recreational. Which often means that little time will be spent understanding the context of a problem and thinking through an appropriate response. To what was a question posed with equally little effort.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 02:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 05, 2016, 01:54:29 pmIt's a sorry thing to be able to say: Generic picture - just fill in the blanks.I've got a couple of examples of my own.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 09:52:19 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 05, 2016, 02:06:21 pmI think that gets close to a lot of the problem... and a lot of Trump wannabe's!

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 09:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on May 05, 2016, 09:52:19 pmI really don't see where politics need enter into this discussion.What stupid demagogue someone believes has little to do with the problem.The root of the problem is socialization; or the lack thereof the "bully" was exposed to during the time his or her parent was responsible for their upbringing.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 11:50:52 pm
content: can you show me the metrics?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 12:06:53 am
content: Engineers tend to be quite direct and generally lack tact

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 12:31:09 am
content: +1 to that!

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 12:37:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 06, 2016, 12:06:53 amThat explains why many have lives that resemble a train wreck.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 01:44:50 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on May 05, 2016, 09:57:17 pmI think it was a remark about Trump's obviously delightful character and personality not his politics.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 02:40:11 am
content: This kind of thing is also very prevalent in software engineering circles.If you are a n00b, the trick is not take any of this personally, be humble and just learn. If you are a pro, the trick is to be patient and not getting shitty over hearing the same questions a million times.One thing I really hate is an environment or platform that discourages people from asking questions. There is always that one prick, who says "X was a stupid question". There is no such thing as a stupid question.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 02:43:57 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on May 06, 2016, 02:40:11 amThe people that get my attention, are those otherwise experienced responders that put down other 'helpers' with proven solutions - just because it's not the way they'd do it - or they aren't as clever as they think...!

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 02:53:02 am
content: Going back to the original post.The longer a forum is established, the larger the selection of users it can sample from who is out there. So during this time you are going to get all the usual, men pretending to be woman, woman pretending to be men, pedophiles, stalkers, every flavor of sexual preference, religion and race, stone cold killers to saints. All with different upbringings and core beliefs.So you would wonder how can people this different get along at all? Well they can't really, it's only tolerance from others that allows an individual to be accepted. Try pushing an alternate personal agenda too hard and you will soon find yourself an outcast.The only exception to this is what moderators allow or tolerate, it's their job to keep peace and settle disputes (at their leisure). If users are allowed to get away with bullying or harassment for no reason they will lose users who don't want to be a part of it.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 03:35:38 am
content: To me it seems they feel a need to defend the group from perceived interlopers. The stronger the group's pecking order the stronger the urge seems to fight for a place towards the top of the pack, and some do it by pushing others down.EEVblog doesn't appear to have that strong a pecking order, mainly because most of us know how little we know outside of our own areas of interest and experience.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 03:41:29 am
content: Interesting...What effect would it have to remove the number of posts from a user's sidebar...?Not that I'm saying EEVblog has much of an ego problem, but I just wonder if people would pay more or less attention to a blow-hard poster if they 'appeared' the same as everyone else?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 03:43:50 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on May 06, 2016, 03:41:29 amI was very vocal about removing "thanks" from the side bar and got some flack for that. I don't think removing post count will go wellOn the other hand, I do want to know how new the poster is. I've seen forums where post count is hidden in the profile, but number of posts is reflected in the number of stars next to the name (1 star - 1-99 posts, 2 stars 100-199 posts, etc until 5 stars). This makes it pointless to compete after 500 posts.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 03:59:15 am
content: There is a well-known phenomenon called The Dunning-Kruger Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) wherein, somewhat counter-intuitively, people with the least knowledge are the most confident, and those with the deepest knowledge are less confident or at least more circumspect. As you learn more, you become more aware of how much there is to know, and how little you do know.EE is a big field. There are a few sub-fields that I am rather expert at, and many more that I have middling understanding, and a bunch that I really don't know what I'm doing. I try to behave appropriately depending on what sub-field we're talking about, but it's hard sometimes on the Internet to know when you're talking to an expert or a beginner who thinks he's an expert. Add in some weak communications skills, and you can sometimes create a bad experience. To all the people I may have offended on this board over the years, I offer my apologies. Unless you deserved it, of course.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 04:00:35 am
content: Specific to this forum and beginner vs hobbyist vs engineer.It's not really in a beginners toolbag to know the lay of the land so they learn as they go, having hints on how to post goes a long way in avoiding shell shock. Hobbyists by this time know what to do already or are engaged enough to care. Engineers are hopefully proficient at reading books so know where to look, research or collaborate.Having a greater knowledge and experience in a field doesn't give you an automatic right to crap on people. However on the flip side most people are inherently lazy and just focused on themselves. Helping people is often a thankless job and dealing with people that aren't making an effort themselves can wear you thin unless you know how to deal with it.If someone thinks your wrong and can't show their working, the rules of the internet apply and you can immediately dismiss them as all talk. If they say their way is best, well as the saying goes there is no such thing.Quote from: SL4P on May 06, 2016, 03:41:29 amFor people new to forums I think they may perceive post count as experience, but as soon as they see some loopy reply from a user with a high post count hopefully that changes. You learn a lot from reading peoples post history and where they are posting.Post count is an incentive to post for some, you can get some good forum participation out of setting the levels up to reward frequent contributors. However it's pretty apparent if your posting like a demon to artificially inflate your numbers.I'm way past my one-a-day quota today.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 04:27:44 am
content: My general rule of thumb for helping random strangers who contact me from the Interweb is this...I let them know that my reply email be always shorter than their email, That soon sorts out who is kicking tires.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 04:39:51 am
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on May 06, 2016, 04:27:44 amRandom strangers contact you?

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 05:13:41 am
content: Quote from: Shock on May 06, 2016, 04:39:51 amYep - about weekly.and more often as it gets to coursework deadlines. Sample below.Quote

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 06:21:38 am
content: I saw a YT video today where a woman got herself into a tight spot. Instead of crying out "Help" or "I need some help here" what does she yell?"Somebody needs to help me!"

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 07:07:05 am
content: Quote from: Shock on May 06, 2016, 04:39:51 amYeah, a few from Nigeria.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 07:35:11 am
content: Was I the only on who while reading this thread thought of an individual with the initials PA who frequents electronics Usenet groups?Edit: I just remembered, people have become some pee'd off with this fellow that web pages have even been set up in his honor.

author: timgiles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 08:57:38 am
content: There are these people in all walks of life, on forums, youtube, in shops, behind the counter and behind you as a customer. I also cant stand to hear some the sexist rhetoric that goes on. Having worked in the British gas industry, that has started to transform over the last 15 years. Women now make up a small but growing % of the workforce and thankfully, a fair amount of the issues they might have faced are starting to disappear. I believe in both cases, its an issue of someone feeling they have missed out in life. Whether it is their career, current or past, or family life or ... you must feel pretty bad about yourself if you think belittling people for their lack of knowledge or the sex they were born with is acceptable.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 09:07:37 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on May 05, 2016, 11:45:48 amThis place is good compared to some of the other forums I used to visit where every other post was from a lazy student asking for a complete project:Quote

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 09:11:04 am
content: Quote from: timgiles on May 06, 2016, 08:57:38 amI suspect a few of these guys have mental health issues.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 09:28:50 am
content: Apparently 4.2% of the US population have an episode of disabling mental illness in any year, and 6% of the world population are currently mentally ill. Some exhibit symptoms of their illness acting out online.Many people believe P.A. of USENET 'fame' is in the above group . The abusiveness level follows a cyclic patten with a period of weeks or months. When he's doing well he's very knowledgeable and his input can be extremely useful, but even at his best, he has no tolerance for fools.Of course there are certainly net bullies who aren't mentally ill, but I believe they are more commonly found on social media rather than on tech sites and fora.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 09:58:14 am
content: Quote from: DTJ on May 06, 2016, 09:11:04 amActually I believe out of all the many hundreds of electronic engineers I have known, I believe I am the only one who is normal.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 10:01:33 am
content: Bold claim. But what is "normal"?

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 10:04:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 06, 2016, 12:06:53 amBULLSHIT!!!

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 10:20:29 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on May 06, 2016, 02:40:11 amThese sides it's being told as having had happened*)on one of our universities but as is the case with most anecdotes, you could never be sure.An old wise professor concludes his lecture with following words: "And remember students, there is no such thing as stupid question. There can only be a stupid answer". Then one of the freshmen gets up and asks: "Professor, if I set my feet each on one rail, reach out and grab an overhead line, will I go like a tram?"*) I'm 73.6% sure I messed up the grammar there. As I'm a bit anal when it comes to that and would like to have my tenses right, could someone correct me there, please?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 10:47:08 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on May 06, 2016, 10:01:33 amMany of the engineer/developers I've known are mildly obsessive, but often intensely focussed - to the point of being anti-social. I call it tunnelling, and they don't release that concentration and come up for a breath until they reach a convenient 'place' where they are comfortable to 'park' the current progress. That could be in hours, days or even weeks... and their families just have to bear with that trait!

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 11:28:52 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on May 06, 2016, 09:28:50 amThere's no doubt he's an intelligent guy with a good memory. He's got good recall of stuff I forgot decades ago.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 12:09:00 pm
content: Re the smart-arse types and answering noobs questions reminds me of two things,Someone who really understands an area can explain it in 3 sentences to their grandma.There is no such thing as a dumb true question, if little effort has gone into it, it is best answered with another 'guiding' question for them to explore. e.g. "give the man a fish feed him for a day, teach him …….. "

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 12:41:40 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 06, 2016, 01:44:50 amThat's so naive.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 12:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on May 06, 2016, 03:59:15 amI get what you are saying however it rules out a person's desire to help others.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 01:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 06, 2016, 09:07:37 amI love those postings too, and also the "this is no home work but could you please help me to solve this by tomorrow?". Fortunately there aren't much of them here.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 02:19:38 pm
content: I don't get these final year project requests. When I did my degree we each selected our final year project at the start of the final year and then worked on it (including the thesis) during the next nine months or so. To help us along we were presented with a long list of ideas but we were quite free to pick our own project so long as it provided "enough academic rigour" in the words of our Professor.My only problem was the hand drawn schematic diagrams in my thesis, they took longer than the typing!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 03:02:22 pm
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on May 06, 2016, 10:01:33 amWithin spec.I'm still not sure about myself ... I can't find my datasheets.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 03:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 06, 2016, 03:02:22 pmIn the back of your manual.At least that is where they are for me...I couldn't find the schematic for my brain so I took it out and attempted to reverse engineer it.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 04:16:04 pm
content: Surely you've got a JTAG somewhere?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 04:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on May 06, 2016, 12:09:00 pmThe problem with that didactic style of answering a question by asking a question that's intended to get the original questioner to solve the problem themselves and hence learn, is that it works best where the round-trip delay is short, as in a face-to-face conversation. That technique gets rather tedious and long-winded if you try and do it online. I'm a great fan of the technique where it's appropriate but I try to avoid it online.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 04:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on May 06, 2016, 12:41:40 pmYou'll be the first person to call me that in a long time. "Grumpy, cynical old bastard" is the usual appellation...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 07:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 06, 2016, 04:36:10 pmYes, I totally agree, that is so resonant.Having said that in my career where I have been the questioner, and the responder is deliberately opaque with their answer, not wanting to understand context: I find it enormously frustrating. It's infrequent, but it happens, in my experience they are short lived rock stars who are unable to become team players.Almost as irritatating are those who hope the difficult question will go away. Those to whom you have to structure your question in such a way that they have to actually divulge something from their private silo of information that they feel makes them so special.Personally, when I am asked a question, in order to answer it I almost always need to understand more about the context: it's almost always a two-way thing. I usually (wrongly) cringe when people come to me as a subject expert on something with a solution: while I am most gratified that they made the effort, I frequently learn something as a result, but most of the time I can give them a better solution. But it's the times when I find I can't give them a better solution that I really learn.

author: krzychb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 08:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on May 06, 2016, 03:41:29 amhttp://www.esp8266.com/forum does not provide any information about user besides the username and avatar.I have joined it over one year ago, use quite frequently and have not seen a moderator stepping in.You may find out about the user only by reading his or her posts and this is how people can build reputation.If online tech bullies feed their ego with a post counter, such forum is not attractive to them.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 08:32:38 pm
content: What difference does the number of posts someone makes?I'll tell you this about the number of posts a person makes.You can tell by their basic character what their post content is.If they make a lot of posts and appear to be helpful, you might be likely to search them out next time you have a problem you cannot solve on your own.If they make snarky posts and a lot of them, you know to avoid them.No big deal.I love looking at people's post counts...

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 09:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 06, 2016, 03:02:22 pmThey're probably full of errors anyway!

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 11:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 06, 2016, 12:06:53 amIndeed but that isnt too much a problem compared to the next part.There is a guy at my company who is not liked by anyone. He was the VP of engineering. Then he went to technical program manager. Now, hes a senior systems engineer. Basically been downgraded and went from big office down to small cube. We arnt really sure what he does anymore though...He went through assistants like no tommorow. First one he had lasted several days. Second one lasted for a couple weeks. Third one lasted a month. They all walked out on their own having had enough of the guy. Telling your assistants, among other things, to clean out the fridge and empty the trash when the company already has dedicated cleaning people isnt recommended; almost screaming at assistants for not doing their job when you fail to give them the proper information isnt recommended either.Even the customers hate this guy. At one point he got assigned as a program manager to a certain program and a certain customer was "not thrilled" about this so they had him removed from there. One time, he was in the middle of a meeting with customers(there were multiple people from both companies there) and started cracking hardboiled eggs on the table to eat. Was it lunch time? Nope, he just decided to start eating eggs at that point for whatever reason.Thankfully I havent had tons of contact with the guy myself.So what makes him horrible? Well, in the few instances I have interacted with him, he simply exudes authority and talks down to just about everyone. The guy isnt a complete idiot, but he certainly thinks hes smarter than most other people even though he isnt. He was there when there was mandatory 10 hour days and from what I hear was practically slave driving people.(I was not under that department at the time and it was 'only' for a few months) On top of that, he would put people down for not working hard enough when they were already working a huge number of hours(in some cases 70-80 hour weeks).One interesting story is that he managed to sneak(he hadnt actually been invited to this one) into a lunch alot of people were having, and get this, once he got to the table, he announced and introduced himself and then started naming all the 3 letter things he had next to his name, phd, eit, ass, whatever type of certifications he had etc. Then he proceded to have everyone at the table introduce themselves, despite the fact that everyone there worked together.The current rumor is they are now trying to get rid of him but dont want to just fire him. They want to make it so there is nothing left for him to do.Anyone else know someone this terrible? This is just a small excerpt of some of the more notible things that have happened.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 12:23:49 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on May 05, 2016, 12:28:43 pmYes but search engines sometimesDon'twork.Either you don't know the technical term for something, or google has indexed things for the Facebook generation so you just get random stuff not related to electronics and crappy keyword sites.So you get a big problem with people saying "Herp derp, look on google noob" when hours of searching finds nothing of value.Almost impossible to find circuits for some types of equipment for instance.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 12:27:39 am
content: ...then the asker is asking the wrong question.He should ask the forum - "I tried looking for this (photo) called an 'xxx' but got no hits".That's often the issue -that the question asker simply doesn't know when to let go of a mistaken understanding, and admit they don't know... help please!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 08:56:55 am
content: Quote from: Tinkerer on May 06, 2016, 11:52:21 pmHe sounds like psychopath and a socio-path rolled into one. The company should have fired him, but unfortunately some countries have laws preventing getting rid of tossers like that bloke. But this one is worse...We had a co-worker (he was previously in the military for many years) who was always right no matter what. Just ask him. If there was a blue car outside and he said it was black, you had to agree with him or be shouted down. If he was ever found not to be right, he would chuck a tantrum like a 2 year old and go into a huff for weeks. Working with him was like walking on eggshells. Mr "Military Intelligence" told us the war in Iraq would be over within 2 weeks of the Americans invading Iraq, because he knew better. He got very aggravated when a colleague begged to differ by saying he thought it would go on for at least 10 years, maybe even 20. I remember the bloke rudely interrupting an employee who was instructing a new hire on his first day about an engineering change register book, by yelling "YOU TWO! You WILL fill in this book if there is any engineering change. You WILL sign it. And you WILL date it." Then he walked off and sulked.Once the bloke left live 240V cables exposed on his workbench left switch on before he went home. I tactfully suggested we remove the 240V hazard to which he replied in his usual arrogant manner "Anyone who touches my stuff deserves to be electrocuted!" and stormed off.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 09:16:22 am
content: Quote from: station240 on May 07, 2016, 12:23:49 amBefore there was "a forum for that" , and "an app for that" there was "a book for that".And lets not confuse looking for a specific schematic with a 12 page thread on "the best soldering tip"Or I am a junior admin, I have more computers on the domain than sense and I was told I need to upgrade Exchange, where should I start? -Probably by slapping your boss-BTW

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 10:42:43 am
content: For an adult, if you care about being bullied, you need to have a life;For an adult, if you can be bullied, you need to be an adult.

author: rch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 12:30:45 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 07, 2016, 10:42:43 amMaybe that was necessary for survival in neolithic times: there should be more room for different kinds of people to contribute nowadays.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 01:03:22 pm
content: get people drunkproblem fixed

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 01:09:47 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 07, 2016, 08:56:55 amMy Father, who was arealsoldier (No. 6 Commando, WWII), told me that men like this had a habit of getting accidentally wounded the next time the unit went into battle. I believe the phrase he used was "bayonet up the arse".

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 01:18:49 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 07, 2016, 10:42:43 amWhat utter drivel. There are many people who are unable, either constitutionally, or because of an unequal power relationship to stop bullying. Ask the black folks of Ferguson, or almost any woman in a country run under Sharia law, or more prosaically a married mother with kids and an abusive spouse. If the answer was as easy as " a life" and "be an adult" there would be no bullying or any other abusive power relationships left in the world.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 04:32:39 pm
content: As for bullying on this forum, one just has to look atanythread on oscilloscopes to find the usual suspects bullying everyone else into acceptingtheirdefinition of what does and doesn't make a good scope.*ducks*

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 04:47:20 pm
content: QuoteWe cannot demand, either individually or collectively, that everyone be nice.Because of that, we need to learn to deal with adversaries, including bullies.For an adult to be shaken by a bully, especially an online bully, s/he is too fragile to belong in the real world.

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 07:12:39 pm
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on May 06, 2016, 02:40:11 amAs someone who works in software engineering and is frankly kind of disgusted by how some of the people I knew in college behaved, and how some people in the industry behave, I've generally tried to take the approach at work with new people of: "Please, ask me as many questions as you want, I love answering questions. Expect me to be annoyed if you're not learning and asking the same thing over and over again however."

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 11:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on May 07, 2016, 04:32:39 pmNo need to duck. I agree with your observation. I recall one particular instance where a newbie was asking about which analog scope he should buy. One nameless individual jumped in and told the newb that analog scopes have no place in today's environment. And he was SO arrogant about it that others had to call him out and tell him to lighten up. But he still went on ranting.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 01:33:47 am
content: QuoteHow about those of us who are more interested in showing off their 6.5-digit meters than using their DT830?For the record, I'm a proud owner of multiple DT830s, some dating back to the 1980s. I'm not ashamed to say that I haven't used 50% of what that meter can offer.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 02:06:33 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 08, 2016, 01:33:47 amInteresting... that says more about your skill using adequate tools, than your skill at spending money!

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 02:37:34 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 08, 2016, 01:33:47 amI have never had a problem myself with someone using a 6 1/2 digit multimeter - it is probably the thing they had on their bench anyway. But you are right that most of the time, a basic meter like the DT830 is more then adequate. Before the digital meters, everyone was using moving-coil based meters with an accuracy of 5% - maybe 1% at best if they have just been calibrated and it is a really good movement. That was fine most of the time. I am uncomfortable when beginners on a limited budget are pushed to blow their money on a professional grade multimeter and a $400+ DSO when they could be starting with a couple of $25 multimeters (so they can measure two things at the same time), a $50 20MHz analogue scope plus hundreds of dollars free to buy parts to make something.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 02:51:16 am
content: Quote from: mmagin on May 07, 2016, 07:12:39 pmYep and a lot of that comes down to ego, pissing contests and bragging rights, etc. Flawed creatures, we are.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 02:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on May 08, 2016, 02:51:16 amYup. As you implied, that's more of a broad observation of humanity than any specific industry. I know Science and Engineering folk like specifics, and some (very vague number there) like to think they are completely logical and rational, don't we all? But we all have our habits, belief's and sense of morality that can even heavily influence conversations about 'what oscilloscope to use', or 'what type of microcontroller/language to use'. In many ways, its no different from a religion, just without the history of culture, we are all 'relgious' in some way and atheists seem to think they are 'above' those who subscribe to a religiion, when really they too have expressions of this, just through other means.Once any topic moves outside of black'n'white engineering and into more grey area's - it can become more heated. Case in point: the FTDI 2.0 thread. I wouldn't say there was any 'bullying' there, but clearly it was emotionally charged because it highlighted peoples fundamental methods, and dare I say, their view of what 'rights' they have.Alas, whilst it's generally seen as negative to have someone with a strong opinion, walking all over other suggestions with short replies like 'get rid of the arduino and learn a real micro!' its all part of the diversity that makes the world. They will always exist and can be valid - even if it appears to just highlight the superiority of others.I really must stop posting on some of the more vague threads... every time I skim over my post, looks like I've stood on my soap box, cleared my throat and ranted...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 03:47:33 pm
content: QuoteWhile some may think they have to the right to be free of such speeches, that kind of thinking is nothing but a method of bullying itself, by shutting down ways of expressions they don't agree, and by forcing others to conform to their views.Bullying comes in many shapes and forms. Sometimes, playing the victimhood (of bullying) itself is a way of bullying others.Just watch the micro aggression being discussed on campus, and the political correctness that has been going on for decades now.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 05:06:53 pm
content: are tech people in real life better?for some people learning and debate and linked to anger. they refuse to consider that you might be seeing something from a different angle and they get mad.this is particularly true when it is money related. i think some people just learned that getting angry means that they will have to spend less money lol. it might even be subconscious. they want to feel that euphoria from "saving" money or being right so its like a junkie that did not get their fix. this is very often tech related. oh you don't need that ground wiresome people I come across just flat out act like they have been shot full of narcan when they are questioned.It also seems to be an addiction that builds slowly, particularly if they have a "fan club" that they can control all the time.... i guess those regions of the brain responsible for discourse etc get atrophied.. and its like exercise, you don't do it for a while and its going to hurt.I literally think that critical thinking makes some people upset.most people are not tech people. this means that tech people get that sense of being right / helpful FREQUENTLY, so they are used to the emotion. addictive...

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 05:29:55 pm
content: Do you all really think this sort of behaviour is unique to tech topics and/or the internet? I can't think of a single subject which doesn't bring this out in some people.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 06:09:15 pm
content: I think I can chime in with some experience here. I actually wound up hiring someone to post on a forum I started after he became demoralized from posting on a free one.There are two different ways to ask a question.1) My amp is broken. Why is it broken? No sound at all.2) My amp is broken. I notice that it has a power supply that is shared between both channels - so I think I can rule out power supply failure because I've read that if both channels are bad on a stereo amplifier with a PSU shared between both channels, that it must be something in front of it. I've checked for a short to ground and have found none, and I've read that I should check around the main drivers on output for this model. I thought my issue might be with an emitter resistor being blown, but all measure fine. Where else might I start probing on this interesting problem?Person #2 shows that-He will invest an amount of time into solving the problem that is somewhat proportional to the amount of time you put into your answer.-He has already put effort in to utilize the solutions of others.-He doesn't expect it to be spoonfed to him.Person 1 is kinda spitting on the advice that the regulars have posted for free 5000 times before. It is demoralizing to answer the same question for free 5000 times.In terms of outright aggression without reason(i.e. misinformation BS is being spread on purpose, etc), I just don't care what people think of me. Bullying in real life is a problem if you are smaller than the person bullying you. Forum bullying is just something I refuse to accept as a real thing. There are no negative consequences for me in the real world if someone on a forum hates me.Now if it turns into cyberstalking, or people calling, death threats, email spam, that's another thing entirely and that is serious and to be addressed. But forum bullies, come on, who cares?

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 09:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: vze1lryy on May 08, 2016, 06:09:15 pmThe problem is replies from people who don't read beyond "My amp is broken." before they hit reply.Or the other type that don't believe what #2 said, and go off on some tangent.I never offer someone "google it" advice without first making sure the answer is actually in the results. It's all too easy to see something that looks right, but turns out to be a press release rather than the technical document you need.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 01:30:13 am
content: I dislike poor questions such as:1) What is the best scope for the money?2) I am looking for a high voltage power supply. Can anyone give me some advice?3) Should I get a Fluke or a Bryman?TO each of these kind of questions, I always come back with a question. What are you going to use the scope for? How high of a voltage do you need and at what current? What do you want to do with a DMM?Invariably, someone will jump in and start giving answers before the OP answers the questions I have asked. There is so little information that the correct answer can not be given.My second beef is a topic that ping pongs back and forth like this:OP-I can't download to my ArduinoA-What Arduino do you have?OP-One I got off ebay.A-which one?OP-The kind most of them sell. Why won't it download?A-What error message are you getting?OP-Something about not being able to connect.A-How about a picture of your setup.OP-It is just like the Instructable picture herehttp://instructable.com/63q479824769827934I stop at this point and give up. I am not into playing 20 questions.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 01:48:11 am
content: Quote from: JoeO on May 09, 2016, 01:30:13 amI can work with that, after all a trait of a good technician (or engineer for that matter) is the ability to work with what you have, even if it is next to nothing.QuoteThat often is a sign of laziness on the OP's part, and should be treated as you describe after a little prodding shows no positive result.I have had a very diverse career in electronics mainly RF related.When I earned () my amateur extra class license I joined a couple of amateur radio related forums. Setting aside other issues with the "personalities" and one forum owner the biggest problem was when not to give advice.Here is an example...Newly minted General class ham, only found out yesterday which end of the soldering iron gets hot...."I need help my Kenwood Linear amplifier quite working...How do I fix it?"That is all the information you get..No grid current reading, no plate current reading, does it even have high voltage...(oh Yah all 3KV at three quarters of an amp of it)He doesn't know if his radio is looking into an open circuit when he transmits...Hell he can't even find the button to get the radio to indicate SWR....If you tell this guy where to start looking, yo won't get very far before he is going to have to open the amplifier. He obviously has no High Voltage experience....My common reply is "I mean this kindly ;but I think you don't have enough skill to repair that amplifier. Furthermore it could kill you dead'er than a hammer. Take it to someone who has the expertise to fix it."You can spot this type by the third sentence of their post.If you blow them off at the beginning you will look like an A-Hole...Sometimes it is best to bring them up to that point and once they realize they have trouble answering your questions let them down easily...

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 01:17:57 pm
content: Quote from: ZeTeX on May 07, 2016, 01:03:22 pmNot necessarily. I was a very bad drunk-instant asshole, add alcohol-that was me. I stopped the stupid drinking many years ago and now have the liver damage to show for it. SWMBO, on the other hand, on the very, very rare occasion she gets a little tipsy, is actually pretty funny.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 01:51:03 pm
content: Stupid questions deserve stupid answers. "How does a magnet work"And short questions deserve a link, not necessarily to the right answer.Also people come here and describe things over pages instead making a photo. "the red wire is connected to a gate of a transistor which is open collector which goes to an opamp...".Really the issue is not regulars being rude, but newcomers having no odea how to do basic electronic communication in the 21 century.And people usually have the question in the datasheet. Really, half the opamp questions here can be answered by saying "rail to rail".

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 02:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 09, 2016, 01:51:03 pmHow is any of that a stupid question? People ask such questions, becausethey want to learn. It's never stupid and should be encouraged. Particularly, "How does a magnet work?" - it's a fascinating phenomenon that seems mysterious to a lot of people. Obviously it stimulates interest, so why not respond with a decent answer? An educator's worth is measured by how well he or she can explain things, which goes beyond simply dumping raw material in front of a novices' face.The reality is that researching and looking for answers is a skill in itself, which many newbies are not proficient at. This is especially true if they don't know the correct terminology to use for their search, or get paralysed by the excess amount of information, which is way beyond their comprehension. Most of us have it easy, because we had academic training. One of the key skills you get taught in academia is to know how to learn.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 03:55:28 pm
content: None of that matters much.As an adult, you should have the confidence in yourself and the mental toughness to face challenges. Bullying, especially online bullying, is nothing vs. Other chanllenges you have to overcome in life to be successful.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 07:24:23 pm
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on May 09, 2016, 02:42:24 pmTotally agree. I believe that is the point of intermediate education in general. Many youngens, in my day, and probably long before and since, asked why they have to learn calculus, algebra, or trigonometry.. or even basic chemistry in school, if they have no intention to go into a vocation that uses it. The point being it shows one can absorb information, understand it to a degree, and then perhaps after testing, discard it. The fact one has passed exams in broad subjects highlights their ability/capacity to learn.Learning how to 'google' is invaluable - from using quotation marks around exact phrases, to the almost common sense of searching with synonyms or slang. As is learning how to find information in books.I hate to quote Einstein (I just get paranoid about being seen as a pretentious prick) "Never memorize something that you can look up".I would *like* to think (as I'm sure we all would) that questions I have asked have either been so painfully specific that one really only finds a couple of references to it, or was a less documented, but perhaps well known, idea. The former generally gets no replies because, well, very few have thought of the same question, the latter generally morphs the thread into something else.Yes, some posters are just lazy - why google with 120 tabs open for a few hours when you can halfheartedly ask a questions in a few words on a forum? For those who like the brevity, I'm sure they really don't care if they don't get a response, they're probably just taking the scatter-gun approach, posting on several forums, and google whilst they wait for replies.But I am occasionally annoyed when a 'novice' (for the want of a better word) asks a fairly simple question, in a polite and concise way, and gets flamed because wiki has a page on it. There can be many ways to explain the same thing, and people will respond/learn better to different approaches. Sometimes having multiple responses, all along the same lines, inspires the OP to do more research on his/her own, especially if you have 5 different people explaining something using different phrases.The same goes for less-than-ideal English. Granted, sometimes it can be very difficult to work out exactly what is being asked, but there are - and will always be - a rare few who will immediately jump on that, and rather than simply ignore the question, feel the need to post a sarcastic comment which doesn't help anyone. I can't say I have seen much of that on this forum, save the odd tongue-in-cheek comment (that the world needs).So, bullies? I haven't seen much of what I would consider 'bullies' on this forum. I actually became a regular because I realized I was increasingly finding posts from google searches helpful. But perhaps I am looking at it from an adults point of view. After all, there could be some very introverted 12 year old kid asking questions and because of the general anonymity of forums, gets shot down. To adults, who have gone through the trials of adolescence and become cynical/thick skinned - meh, but who knows what they'll take to heart. I think dannyf is probably just taking the hard-line for balance, and ultimately, we can all see his point. But the idea of 'get over it' doesn't justify people posting for the sake of trolling 'newbies' who for all we know are losing sleep over a minor part of their final Engineering project.Most forums seem to have a sticky with 'posting rules/guidelines' which perhaps would/could either help folks formulate their questions better, or provide a starting point for a starting point for research.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 08:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on May 06, 2016, 03:59:15 amSomewhat funny - I was put in my place by someone here in a thread about something they seemed to know a lot about. They then quoted Dunning-Kruger at me. It turned out that they had no experience of the subject, and I had several years experience.We all can learn from others, a bit of patience and humility goes a long way. The person you are insulting can always teach you something.

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 08:50:26 pm
content: I think every forum should have a variant of Daves "Don't like it, don't watch it" policy.Dont't like the topic, post or author, don't post yourself.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 10:16:52 pm
content: "I haven't seen much of what I would consider 'bullies' on this forum. "Many times, those victims of bullying are nothing but bullies themselves who are trying to impose their views and their ways of interaction onto the rest of the society, under the disguise of political correctness.Unfortunately, many times most people are just too kind to tell them to fheo off.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2016, 12:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on May 09, 2016, 08:46:25 pmHaha! Whenever I see someone quote or refer to Dunning-Kruger I always suspect what you found to be true!

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 02:47:11 am
content: Quote from: DTJ on May 10, 2016, 12:54:00 pmPerhaps someone suffering from DKE is more likely to cite DKE. Nevertheless, it's a real phenomenon, measured repeatedly. Very much related is "impostor syndrome" where people who _are_ qualified sometimes feel as if they don't belong, even though they very much do.And the fact remains, on the Internet, you just don't know who you're talking with, whether you should be teaching them or them teaching you, until you start talking and you find out. And in that process, egos can be bruised. I think that's all very well and natural. Complicating matters are people who get their kicks out of pretending to know more than they do, or who just bruise egos for entertainment. And there are definitely a few -- though not many -- folks like that inhabiting this very board.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 09:11:44 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on May 16, 2016, 02:47:11 am

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 09:55:50 am
content: Something that can be quite off-putting and perhaps feel like bullying is the way that electronics has various levels of complexity in the models used.Someone asks something like 'what does a diode do?' and you start off with simple answers like 'it allows current to flow only in the direction of the arrow' then you get other people jump in and start complaining that actually electrons are flowing the other way so technically current is going in the opposite direction to the arrow. Then someone else will jump in and start talking about the voltage drop and yet another will start talking about diodes can work in reverse if the breakdown voltage is exceeded. Then you eventually get people talking about band gaps and depletion layers.While all this is true and potentially valuable information in gaining a better understanding it can also be seen as a competition between people to show how much more knowledge they have than the next person. While in a majority of cases it is just the desire of the engineers way of thinking to be as accurate as possible with the information it can result in the newbie being overwhelmed and just giving up in despair as they go away thinking they need to know all about the physics of semiconductor crystals if they are going to get anywhere in electronics and just give up.The important thing is finding the right balance.

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 11:08:27 am
content: Quote from: Tandy on May 21, 2016, 09:55:50 amBalance is it. A good part of it is understanding where OP is coming from and what they want to achieve. No different to what you see in "real" life I guess.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 12:31:00 pm
content: I got bullied by a stop light the other day. I remember a slight breeze that morning. I was really put down by it.