EU ban of Winter Time - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:02:41 pm
content: Just when computers and clocks become smart enough to change automatically between the Winter and Summer Time (Daylight Savings Time to you Yanks) the EU plans to do away with it.Juncker to recommend end of daylight saving timehttp://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/0831/990719-daylight-saving-time/

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:06:55 pm
content: I look forward to it. I hate that time-changing cr*p two times a year. Every time it brings me out of whack for three weeks.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:14:32 pm
content: DST is an invention that sort of only made sense a long time ago, and has absolutely no use today.EU, set the example, get rid of DST, and may the world follow.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 31, 2018, 04:06:55 pmSurvival of the fittest. With DST the strong have a competitive edge over the weak for six weeks a year.I don't care either way, though I would have liked them to look at the actual cost of both options rather than just asking people for opinions. Apparently there's an increase in road accidents after changing the time, but that could be offset by the extra productivity and people being more alert and seeing more later on. Policies should be evidence based, but I guess that you need to fight populists with populist measures.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:16:36 pm
content: Did any of you actually read the second paragraph?.... or did I misread it?

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 04:52:56 pm
content: Not going to miss it if we get rid of it some day.https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finland_to_lobby_eu_for_abolition_of_daylight_saving_time/10042340

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 05:26:48 pm
content: QuoteThat would be the first time that Mr Junker does what the citizens say...

author: bloguetronica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:28:23 pm
content: But if you take away daylight saving time, doesn't that leave you with "winter time"? Unless you now advance one hour all year round, and then you are permanently one hour wrong. These politicians know nothing. Not surprisingly, they never worked in their lives.Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: bloguetronica on August 31, 2018, 06:28:23 pmI don't think there is a 'wrong' here - after all it is just a convention.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 06:45:00 pm
content: I hate time change, I vote it is gone everywhere...

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 07:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2018, 04:16:08 pmThis has already been done, and it's been shown that there are no advantages to time change regarding productivity, economy or power savings, rather the opposite on productivity.It's a relict from WW I, where Germany and Austria/Hungary introduced it to save energy for lighting in the evening, energy that was transferred to war production instead. England and France did the same thing shortly after that.It was reintroduced in WW II for the same reason.Scrap it.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 07:09:52 pm
content: .

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 07:37:58 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 31, 2018, 07:02:10 pmIn the UK we went one (hour) better, during WWII we went to Double daylight saving time to save on energy and give more daylight for crop harvesting.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 07:41:52 pm
content: Interesting, Gyro. First time I've heard of "double daylight time." Thanks.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 07:55:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 31, 2018, 07:37:58 pmHow can using daylight savings time give more daylight on a globe earth?Why can't the farmers adjust their alarm clocks to wake them up two hours earlier instead of forcing the whole country to change all clocks?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 08:02:46 pm
content: @Benta: Another of our secret weapons revealed.Quote from: glarsson on August 31, 2018, 07:55:36 pmIt wasn't just the farmers. There was the 'Dig for Victory' campaign, where ordinary people were told to dig up their nice green lawns and rose bushes and plant vegetables instead. DDST allowed them more daylight to work on their gardens when they returned from work.Edit: Nice light, even longer evenings still sound like a nice idea! Shame about the mornings.Of course, the subject of daylight saving time is going to be more or less contentious depending on your latitude - I know the people of Scotland have strong views but I can't remember the details.

author: bloguetronica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 10:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on August 31, 2018, 06:37:06 pmNot according to solar time. There is indeed a "wrong", unless you consider than the peak solar height now happens at 11:00, convention wise. But that wouldn't make sense, would it?Quote from: Gyro on August 31, 2018, 08:02:46 pmEasy fix without DST. First establish "winter" time, as it should be. Then establish that the working day should start at 8:00AM instead of 9:00AM, or 7:00AM instead of 8:00AM, depending on the case.Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

author: rfspezi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 11:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on August 31, 2018, 05:26:48 pmThat's simply the cheapest and laziest way he tries to snatch a bit of sympathy from the people who incresingly mistrust him and his institution.

author: bloguetronica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 11:48:55 pm
content: Quote from: rfspezi on August 31, 2018, 11:37:06 pmIt occurred to me that this may be a measure to distract from the real issues that EU is now facing. I don't expect him to do anything.Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 05:59:20 am
content: Yeah, I'm not a fan of the semi-annual time change. It's even weirder in the US where daylight saving/summer time is most of the year long nowadays.With the world being as connected as it is, I wouldn't mind if time zones went away as well. UTC everywhere. It'd make it a lot easier to coordinate teams and meetings across large countries and the rest of the world. After all, it's not like the southern hemisphere shifts their calendars by six months so that the seasons occur in the identically named months as the northern hemisphere.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 06:41:55 am
content: "We carried out a survey, millions responded and believe that in future,summer time should be year-round, and that's what will happen"That reads to me like they would make "Summer time" (aka "Daylight saving") permanent.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 12:46:58 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on August 31, 2018, 07:09:52 pmWhy not?Singapore used to be half an hour offset w.r.t Western Australia, Beijing, & some other trading partners in the region, so they changed it permanently.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 02:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on September 01, 2018, 06:41:55 amIf that question was asked of the general UK population, 52% wouldvote for summer time all year around, while thinking GMT is a government department, and BST is a cow disease. I wish I was joking.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 02:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on September 01, 2018, 02:17:27 pmNow THAT'S funny!!

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 03:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 01, 2018, 12:46:58 pmThat's an ideologic excuse, it don't have sense to change the timezone GMT+1 to GMT +0.Why didn't it change the timezone when Franco died?.Considering ,that we began to swap the winter time to summer time in 1973 .OFFTOPIC (By the strangers, here there are people that pretend to win the war ,when Franco is dead since 1975(Dead on the bed)).

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 03:30:08 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on August 31, 2018, 04:06:55 pmTry working in shifts... you´d be out of whack every other week.Poor people that have to write software that calculates time differences. If it goes through there is another special case to consider. Of course you can calculate in UTC, but if you have to display in a given timezone before or after such changes or for a given date. There is a huge room for error in there. Of course for a plenty of applications this might be meaningless, but think bank transfers and contracts.Interesting talk about how e.g. Perl Module DateTime manages this:

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 03:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on September 01, 2018, 02:55:54 pmIt might be comical - and true - but somehow I just can't raise a laugh in all good conscience.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 04:08:59 pm
content: .

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 04:27:11 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on September 01, 2018, 04:08:59 pmThis is the reason:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Spain

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 05:28:04 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on August 31, 2018, 04:02:41 pmJust? They've been doing that just fine for decades. It's the humans that have trouble with it.Quote from: glarsson on August 31, 2018, 07:55:36 pmWhen it comes to planting and harvesting, serious farmers have always operated on sun time, not clock time. Ditto for fieldworkers they hire. The actual number of daylight hours can't be changed with clock tricks.On the flip side, it's increasingly true that automated tasks don't actually require sunlight to operate.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 07:53:26 pm
content: .

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 10:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on September 01, 2018, 05:28:04 pmAnd humidity, rain forecast and such... it dictates quite a lot, because you need a certain humidity in the crop to be able to store it for a long time or process it.But the cows might want to be fed and milked around the same time (solar) or they get nervous.I´d personally not agree with the need to change, for the sake of avoiding the change and its implications, on the other hand DST changes seem to happen worldwide and often, so it is not a world first anyway and any decent software can handle it properly.With the rise of solar energy, it might also make sense to stick with the solar time?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2018, 10:38:28 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on September 01, 2018, 05:28:04 pmPrecisely. It's a bit of a pointless system. Of the 8 states/territories in mainland Australia, 3 of them don't observe daylight savings.DST really creates more problems than it solves.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:39:30 am
content: That's great news, the sooner the better.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:43:54 am
content: While we're at it, I think we should all adopt the Kodak calendar!!!https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_CalendarIt was actually used from 1928 to 1989!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 06:12:52 am
content: So the thirteenth month is called Sol - and it sits in the middle of the Southern Hemisphere winter. Somewhat incongruous.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 31, 2018, 04:16:36 pmi did, nearly 5 million citizens in UE has responded to the consultation.In my country there were a total of zero news articles regarding this prior to yesterday.Besides, nobody ever told me, or anyone i know, about the website for the consultation (https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en) and that they existed and we were supposed to answer them in the first place.Thanks, theachers newsmen and politicians.Meanwhile, those politicians who should have informed us are yelling against the big bad EU so they can gather more votesregarding the change per se, i don't care. I would probably have voted against just to keep things the way they are because i'm used to it

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 12:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on September 01, 2018, 03:30:08 pmthe dates for the changes was standardized across EU in the mid 90's so it has been changed before

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 02:31:35 pm
content: .

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 03:16:44 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on August 31, 2018, 05:26:48 pmThose AC/DC fellows said "Have a drink on me", so..."

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2018, 03:28:23 pm
content: Drunker Junker probably thinks that if he get's rid of winter time the EU will save millions on salting roads.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:13:11 am
content: The EU isn't banning DST. It's not being prohibited, it might simply not be used any longer.

author: bloguetronica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:19:45 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 03, 2018, 12:13:11 amWell, it is not the first time that EU enforces "to be taken lightly" policies with great force. So, not being used any more could have the same weight of illegal. One can never be sure.Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:32:54 am
content: Quote from: bloguetronica on September 02, 2018, 11:58:08 pmIf you are going to leave the decision to "get up early" to individuals, then it's never going to happen to any significant degree within a population. Daylight saving is a simple way to make a whole population alter their practices.While some people might carry on about the "change over", I just don't expend any energy on making a noise. I just change my clocks and continue with my life.I believe there is tangible value in DST - and when you consider DST had a solid, continuous run in London from 1940 to 1944 - withdoubleDST in 1944 - the case is strong that there was an identifiable benefit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 12:36:51 am
content: I've cleaned this thread up, try not to let it devolve into a politics.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:14:02 am
content: Quote from: Towger on August 31, 2018, 04:02:41 pmNo one is banning anything, unless you are a daily fail reader! I would welcome it, I do not see the point anymore. We stopped being a civilised country years ago and now many people are working shifts and even farmers work overnight so who needs it anymore.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 06:34:04 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on September 03, 2018, 12:32:54 amDaylight saving makes a little bit of sense on the Eastern Seaboard of Australa, where the Sun rises over the ocean, giving unobstructed light from an early hour.The downside, of course, is that it sets over the land, which obstructs the light so that Sunset is effectively earlier than it would be otherwise.On the West Coast, the situation is reversed, with the Dawn obscured by the land, so Summer Sunrises are not as early as in the Eastern States.As Sunset occurs over the ocean, the light remains unobstructed longer, so there is already a natural degree of DSTAdd to this that WAST is centred on a point nearly halfway across the State, & it means that we have all the evening daylight we can handle.Back when we still had Drive-in movies, which started at 7:45 PM, in mid Summer, the first 20mins of the first movie was often effectively invisible for those Drive-ins which were located close to the coast.Of course, you could place the screen back facing the West, but that just swapped one problem for another,---now the screen is unwatchable because of the Sun's glare.With DST, a 7:45 PM WDST start would be occurring at 6:45 PM WAST---broad daylight!The obvious answer was to start at the original time (now 8:45 WDST), which still had problems in some places, as above.This, however, meant that rather than gaining an hour, the customers had effectively lost one.Apart from Drive-in & Open Air movies, there are other activities where darkness enhances the experience, rather than mars it.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:18:21 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 03, 2018, 12:13:11 amIt is a play on the the EU bans halogen light bulbs thread name. Much like the ban on bendy bananas and ban on selling items in non metric units. Both of which never actually existed. :-;

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:38:34 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 03, 2018, 06:34:04 amThis is no longer much of a problem with LED screens. A local park has had a free movie weekend for the last few years. With 3 different movies throughout the day. This year they positioned the screen with full sunlight on it!! While it was not as good, the midday show was still watchable.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 07:47:20 am
content: What I find more important how are all my electronic devices with RTC's going to behave.They switch to summer/winter time automagically, now I have to reprogram them (if possible) to ignore this

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:03:15 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 03, 2018, 07:47:20 amWe managed the millenium bug on 01.01.2000, we can solve this one too.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:08:48 am
content: Meh, keep switching the time. It is always a refreshing thing.Anyone has it the same ?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 08:48:38 am
content: Quote from: zucca on September 03, 2018, 08:03:15 amThat created a lot, lot of work and jobsPerhaps that is the real reason

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 03:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on September 02, 2018, 12:41:38 pmIndeed, there was a time when we were 2 hours different from Italy and parents and grand parents had to be aware for phone calls.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2018, 03:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 03, 2018, 06:14:02 amDirective 2000/84/EC unifies the dates at which member states enact their DST, this sounds eminently sensible; it seems really odd that the EU would seek to influence whether member states actually had such a time change. However, it does seem that Germans (the main respondents to the survey) don't like DST which is a pity since my clock synchronises to DCF77 +1Hr