F-35 crash in Alaska - cause determined - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2025, 04:52:54 pm
content: In a nut shell, hydraulic fluid contaminated with water froze taking out the landing gear and sensors.~$197,000,000 loss in aircraft.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2025, 01:18:33 am
content: That's more than double the incremental cost of buying another one to replace it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2025, 04:44:57 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on September 02, 2025, 01:18:33 amYou're not taking into account all the meetings to discuss the new purchase.Then those meetings have to trigger other meetings, (ya have to follow procedure).Lots of people being paid to sit around and decide "Yes, lets get a new one to replace the crashed one"$82.5 million - Raw cost to buy a new F35$114.5 million - Cost of all the red tape, approvals, hourly rates of everyone at all levels who needs to be involved in the purchase.Total $197 million.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2025, 05:52:32 am
content: Of course more than likely none of that happens at all.The USAF has contracts to buy 1,763 F-35A of which 797 had been delivered by the end of 2024. They will have some non-zero assumed amount of attrition by accidents and probably will not go through all those committees unless they suddenly lose a couple of hundred for some reason, in which case that $114.5 million for red tape will be under a million per plane.

author: wasyoungonce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2025, 10:36:10 pm
content: No it won’t cost that much extra. The cause was frozen WOW (weight on wheels)!switch for nose gear. Not hydfluid water contamination. It’s impossible for that. Though hyd fluid does go thru fuel/air heat exchanger's. The hyd will be topped up by external port. The crew will see a gauge on the acft (probably wheel well) and top it up by connecting ext hand pump (they fill this hand pump every morning….hyd oil from sealed cans…it’s possible it’s not an electric hyd refill nowadays… but doubt it). Or at engine start it might say “low hyd” do it’s pumped in with engine running. But low hyd isn’t empty in fact it’s a large reservoir .But it was icing conditions that froze up mechanicals. Which yes is a concern. Fighter acft get frozen at altitude yet have fuselage areas that are scorching hot. Post flt you can get frozen hands touching some surfaces and skin burns roughing other areas.The frozen WOW ….they tried a few touch and goes to get it to bump down but it didn’t fix it (initially it also had a frozen main UC one side but they got that working) Since a pilot is worth more than an acft they are told to eject. Though I’m kinda wondering why no arrest or attempt at landingMaybe it’ll slam the nose down too hard???Who knows maybe they washed or hosed down the acft. But Alaska isn’t a place you do this. Frozen sensors etc have caused many acft crashes. Notably AirNZ A320 (on acceptance fly to Air NZ) frozen AOA probe. a Acft was washed prior to flt and water was stuck in labyrinth seals that froze at altitude.Alaska is pretty damn cold freezing and altitude the air gets really cold ~-60C at 40,000ft. STD ICAOAcft crashes are never due to one cause. It’s always a series of events Hyd oil can freeze but it’s made not to and runs thru heat exchanges to keep it warmer. Also operating keeps it warm.https://www.businessinsider.com/alaska-f-35-crash-ice-system-think-on-ground-investigation-2025-8

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2025, 11:50:03 pm
content: they said its 30% contaminated and it was stored in the open in the report.... I bet the barrel has a lip on it, and it was left without a cap on, in the snow or rain?How do you make the claim that its not hydraulic fluid contamination when they said its hydraulic fluid contamination?I think its this reporthttps://www.pacaf.af.mil/Portals/6/documents/3_AIB%20Report.pdf?ver=z-QJglR9Qm7slupMlo6zeA%3d%3dGo to figure #5, 6, 7, which shows it after it was centerfuged or somethingFollowing the mishap, the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) tested the hydraulic fluid in theMA’s NLG and RMLG (Tab J-19). AFRL found that approximately one-third of the fluidretrieved from the RMLG and NLG was water (Tab J-19)I think that is pretty damning evidence

author: wasyoungonce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 02:15:53 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 06, 2025, 11:50:03 pmHyd oil isn’t kept in barrels. It’s in sealed metal 1lite container's. You only open them with a spike tool do as to reduce metal ingress. They are not able to be opened any other wayI spent quite a bit of time st operating sqns (up to f18) and have done “hyd boy” . But hyd is in these same 1lite containers before f18s era. It’s best method of storage to prevent contamination.It is not pumped from a large drum with a lid. They use 1litre so you only open what you need. So it cannot be sitting left open. Any unused is sent to waste All operating SQNs do this.Edit. It’s in quart not lite containers like this This is not the fluid used but similar contsiners.https://www.aircraftspruce.com.au/catalog/lgpages/aeroshell08-14635.php

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 03:39:07 am
content: That's not what the airforce says:QuoteThe report also mentions the WoW sensors, and says the problem was that the struts failing to fully extend prevented the WoW sensors from working and they reported the plane was on the ground. But it sounds like that only happened after the first touch and go. It wasn't the initial problem.Furthermore they have a photo of a sample hydraulic oil from the service barrel clearly showing oil/water separation.But sure, obviously you know better than the the airforce how the airforce uses and stores hydraulic fluid 100% of the time.

author: wasyoungonce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 04:18:43 am
content: Ok so they were not following procedures it sounds like. Even ground support equipment like hyd rigs have to be treated as acft in oils and filling procedures. These Quart container's were deliberately chosen to reduce contamination. We even had specific hyd and engine oil sheds for these and nothing else.Sounds like damn fools chose to do it their own way. We were never allowed to transfer or use 44gal drums. Yes I do know military way. 25yrs av tech. I’ve even run a SQN OPS at one time. (A short period) Id crucify any one using s 44 gal drum it was not f18 approved method nor mirage IIIO nor sabre jet before ….and I’d doubt f35 approvedJust sayin. Never seen a 44gal drum to transfer hyd oil or engine oil ever. Except on DC3! Maybe big acft use them but not fighters.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 04:28:56 am
content: omg."This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Lockheed Martin Corporation"

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 05:12:13 am
content: I wonder if they are scared the tax payers are gonna get wise to stupid people breaking expensive things and people doing stupid things with expensive things

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 06:57:01 am
content: Quote from: Psi on September 02, 2025, 04:44:57 amYou need to break the $114.5M down further into its components:$12.7M - Cost of all the red tape, approvals, hourly rates of everyone at all levels who needs to be involved in the purchase.$101.8M - Kickbacks to the suppliers in the home states of all the senators who voted for it.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 04:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: wasyoungonce on September 07, 2025, 04:18:43 amNothing I saw in the report suggested anything like that. Bad handling and bad record keeping for sure, but no mention of "they shouldn't have been using large barrels in the first place but quart single use-pre sealed containers" so I'm pretty sure you are just wrong. The report describes the source barrels and the hydraulic servicing cart as part of the standard operating procedure for the 200 flight hours service of the aircraft.I don't doubt you have experience, I just doubt that you know all authorized maintenance procedures for all aircraft under all conditions.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2025, 07:04:27 pm
content: Maybe what we have is evidence of another one of those money savings things that doesn't. The lessons learned about operating in cold weather through accidents and death are decades old. Some smart guy comes along and says all those one quart cans are costly and inefficient. And we are already under fire for F-35 costs. Let's buy in bulk and make a special service cart.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 02:24:56 am
content: Could be. Or it could be that aircraft designers didn't pay adequate attention to maintinence requirements and designed themselves into a corner where for some reason hydraulic service couldn't practically be done the old way, and they had to come up with some weird protocols. The mishap report goes into human factors but doesn't address if any design issues or problems with the maintinence procedures that make poor adherence likely. The report mentioned frequent personnel rotation which is always bad for detail oriented processes but if the process is easy to cut corners that's makes those problems worse.But that's all supposition without knowing the history of the program.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2025, 02:30:25 am
content: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-12/f-35-flies-with-871-flaws-only-two-fewer-than-a-year-earlierQuotegiven the approximate trajectory of left over flawsmaybe this year there is still 780 flaws to solvehttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-29/pentagon-says-only-half-of-its-f-35-jet-fleet-is-mission-readyQuoteso about only 1 out of 3 planes are fully workinghttps://www.pogo.org/analysis/f-35-testing-report-reveals-problems-with-production-decisionsQuotethe vendor has more power than the government