Horrible solder job, buyer wants money back after butchering kit with his skill - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:21:17 pm
content: This was mentioned on another forum I frequent...http://www.hamgadgets.com/blog/2013/11/this-just-takes-the-cake/QuotePictures below:

author: minime72706
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:26:43 pm
content: Wow, that's pretty !@#%ing bad. I've seen high school age students solder for the first time and it's almost never anywhere nearly that bad. Why the dick is there a jumper wire where a capacitor should be?Did you provide Paypal your side of the story?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:29:04 pm
content: Holy shit. Forget any jokes I may have made about soldering using a "soldering shovel", this dude hasreallyused one, and then finished off with a soldering bazooka!Quote from: minime72706 on December 11, 2013, 03:26:43 pmBecause idiot.QuoteProbably won't help, because idiots.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: minime72706 on December 11, 2013, 03:26:43 pmIt's not mine, it belongs to the guy on that link.. I just copy-pasted.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:42:45 pm
content: Oh, I see the problem - he's not washed the flux offActually that has to qualify as the worst soldering I've ever seen, and then some. Think if I'd sold it I'd probably just refund the guy and never sell to him again simply to save the inevitable arguments.

author: BeerCannon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:47:39 pm
content: Holy moly, was he soldering with a blow torch?On the up-side, I now feel so much better about my own soldering..

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:52:52 pm
content: Remind me never, ever to sell kits.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:54:46 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on December 11, 2013, 03:52:52 pmNo kidding.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:55:00 pm
content: Being a person who suffers from a mild case of OCD, I genuinely found these images painful to watch.I'm not saying my joints were perfect when I started soldering, but this is just absurd. I hope the seller gets justice from PayPal and doesn't get forced to reimburse the moron (although I'm aware that's quite unlikely to happen).

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:55:24 pm
content: I'd still not name and shame him. That's a bridge too far for me.No issue with the story and the pictures. But when you're in a commercial dispute , publishing the name on the web is not the way to go.

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 03:59:12 pm
content: Give a refund as early and as fast as you can and never do business with the purchaser again. Some people argue this rewards bad behavior, but I say morons like this have to live with themselvesevery single day, and, comparatively, you won't miss whatever tens or hundreds of dollars you might stand to lose in a year's time.Also, please post the purchaser's name/location/e-mail so we can all invalidate any orders.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 04:04:21 pm
content: I can cope with seeing poor soldering, that can often be rectified, but look at all the long component leads that have likely shorted to who knows what destroying components in the process. Truly amazing (in a bad sense) soldering and electronic 'skills'On a point of principle and to protect others from this ape (sorry to insult apes) I would speak to ebay customer services who will in turn speak with PayPal. I have personally had good experiences with that approach.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 04:17:34 pm
content: No question that the soldering job is the cause of the problems. With that said and using PayPal I suggest you refund the original payment and diplomatically tell him you are not returning it to him and the reason it did not work was due to a failure to follow instructions, poor assembly, and poor soldering technique.Just goes along with being on the seller side. Happens to me once in a while and I just give the refund. Life is short. Not worth getting into a pissing match with a customer. And of course, don't let him order anything again.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 04:27:40 pm
content: I reckon I could solder better than that wearing a blindfold, so could most people for that matter, that person either had a bad case of the DT's or some nerve degenerative disease.

author: orbiter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 04:34:27 pm
content: Ah I see what's happened here.. The guy has tried to use the same technique as the one you use when pouring aluminium, except I think he's used a slightly to large a pourer.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 05:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on December 11, 2013, 03:55:24 pmApparently it will get you in deep trouble with the FBI, as well:QuoteIt seems that the FBI is now employing semi-literate morons with a negligible command of both the law and the English language, and has also moved its base of operations from Washington D.C. to the Czech RepublicLink:http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/?p=1194

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 05:53:08 pm
content: Typical Generation X, Y, Z or whatever they call themselves now. No common sense, no common courtesy and if they screw something up it's everyone else's fault, not theirs. Not only should his name be put out there but his name and call sign should be sent to every kit manufacturer there is along with the photos and a description of the incident so no one will sell to him EVER AGAIN! I could probably teach my dog to do better and she has no thumbs. He should also have his ham toys taken away and given a set of TinkerToys to play with. He obviously can't handle more than that. People like him give the rest of us hams a bad name. I also vote on giving his money back and be done with him. There is no point trying to have a battle of wits and intelligence with someone like him. It would be like trying to teach a pig to sing, it will frustrate you and annoy the pig.Tom, NW0LF, who actually knows which end of the soldering iron is which.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 05:58:05 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on December 11, 2013, 05:53:08 pm

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:08:18 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on December 11, 2013, 05:53:08 pmThis is bullshit.I'm generation y and can solder tqfp with my hako. Not all of us are stupid

author: BeerCannon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:08:35 pm
content: I don't believe for one second that the FBI would get involved with this. I've had them here at my office (on more than one occasion) when we've had DoS attack attempts and such, and they aren't interested in ANY case unless you can demonstrate a financial loss of at least a million bucks. Period. Plus, they would not be giving what amounts to 'legal advice', especially "in print". Someone is lying, and in fact by doing so are guilty of impersonating a law enforcement official.. which could land them in far more trouble.

author: iceisfun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:11:35 pm
content: He should not have posted personal details about the person who did it. That is going too far and not very professional.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:24:11 pm
content: That's a hoot. The FBI does not get involved in this type of crap. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.I agree though that naming the person in the post is unprofessional and is a bad marketing move. Reading his post would make me look elsewhere if considering purchasing one of his products.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:30:33 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on December 11, 2013, 06:24:11 pmYou seem to have missed the irony in my post. It is obvious from the message header and the poor English that the FBI had nothing to do with the quoted email.

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:36:39 pm
content: It could actually be against the law to throw solder like this at a board , health and safety, plus it could be classed as abuse to the board, soldering iron, & components

author: BeerCannon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on December 11, 2013, 06:30:33 pmOops! I missed your irony, too.. sorry! Not only is it poorly worded, but the FBI is playing judge and jury by assuming a) that they have the right person, b) that the person is guilty, c) that they can magically revoke internet service that he's paying for under contract... the ignorance is worse than the soldering!

author: BeerCannon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:43:30 pm
content: Sad to say, reading the original post in the ham radio forum... the culprit lives about a 40 minutes' drive north of me!The world is sometimes TOO small!

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:46:00 pm
content: You should fire your beer canon at him

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:54:36 pm
content: smashedproton, I saidtypical. That doesn't mean everyone. In my experience it is typical behavior. We have one living at home with our granddaughter. The middle daughter's husband is like that. My wife's nephews and niece are like that. I see that behavior by customers or their children at my sites I service in the course of my job. If I said everyone, I would agree with you-it is a bullshit statement. However, it does apply to the vast majority that I come in contact with and I am not alone bemoaning this. I commend your parents for raising you right. That is all too uncommon these days. I am also jealous of you for being able to solder TQFP. My eyes are no longer good enough for that without extreme magnification and I can't afford a stereo microscope. Oh, and I have a Hakko also. Great soldering iron.Tom, NW0LFadd-Beercannon, go take his toys, PLEASE!!!!!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 07:01:15 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on December 11, 2013, 05:53:08 pmLets call it Generation Arduino. That should describe it properly.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 07:04:06 pm
content: Well, this is one more reason to design stuff with SMD components.

author: walshms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 07:12:49 pm
content: Anyone selling kits should have a clear disclaimer that says that they are not responsible if the user's assembly and handling of the kit doesn't meet minimum standards. You know, photos of the assembled board showing what it ought to look like when it's done, etc. so that there's no confusion about what skills are needed, how parts should be handled, how leads should be clipped, etc.Documented like that, there's not much argument that can be had with situations like this.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 07:41:31 pm
content: ahahah person that soldered this has a HAM license

author: Leestons
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 07:57:17 pm
content: That's my giggle of the day. Thank you!

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 08:03:58 pm
content: I tried his ARRL listed email, it bounces, damnit.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 08:08:16 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on December 11, 2013, 05:53:08 pmHey, piss off old man! I'm apparently generation Y - and I run a successful assembly business. And if I do screw up, my customers get compensated!Blah blah blah young people are thick and don't appreciate anything blah blah shut up and go away.P.S. You're wrong even though you said typical. It's not typical.

author: VintageTekFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 08:11:33 pm
content: Dunning-Kruger Effect.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 09:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: M0BSW on December 11, 2013, 08:03:43 pmUnfortunately, there is absolutely no soldering test to get a ham license, and the tests (at least in the US) hardly check anything else, either.As hinted at by my handle, I've got a license. I know hams who can make joints with their eyes closed that would consistently pass NASA inspection. Some can design and build prototypes in manhattan style construction that are genuine functional works of art. I also know hams who would have less than a 50/50 chance of guessing which end of the iron was hot on a good day. At least most of those know that they ought to go down to the store and buy their gear already assembled. The worst are those who don't realize how awful their soldering technique is, and with misplaced confidence, solder like the pictures shown at the beginning of this thread.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 09:38:35 pm
content: 10cc's of benzocaine ... stat... knock me out.this is not soldering. this is vomiting in the general direction of the board and not even putting an effort in to try a modicum of aim.even letting hot solder drip of a tip of an iron to make splotches would give a better result than this...

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 09:40:11 pm
content: Quote from: M0BSW on December 11, 2013, 08:03:43 pmIf you think of HAM as in HAM-Fisted, it makes perfect sense!Ed

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 09:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on December 11, 2013, 07:01:15 pmeven more accurate : Generation Hard-Whino....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 09:43:27 pm
content: Reminds me why I stopped selling kits...

author: madworm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 09:54:43 pm
content: I knew I shouldn't have looked at the images... now I will have nightmares for the next two weeks :-(

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:00:59 pm
content: If we're lucky he'll remove himself from the gene pool before he breedsAnd this year's Darwin award goes to......

author: orbiter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:07:29 pm
content: This is a serious question now fellas, as I'm thinking to myself... How exactly DO you solder like that?

author: marcan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:08:34 pm
content: Yowch. That is appalling.And yeah, it's sad, but getting a technician ham license in the US really only tests that you've memorized some basic ham trivia and know some very basic electronics theory (not practice). I'm KJ4AXK; I studied a bit the night before the exam and passed without any real effort. You could pass without having ever seen a PCB, much less soldered anything.Now, I do actually know what I'm doing (I don't actively use my license these days, but if I did I'd do it responsibly), but the process didn't inspire that much confidence in me, especially when confronted with... these kinds of people.

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: orbiter on December 11, 2013, 10:07:29 pmWhit something like this?

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:17:43 pm
content: Quote from: Thor-Arne on December 11, 2013, 10:16:09 pmnot even by that.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on December 11, 2013, 07:01:15 pmIdiots are not linked to the Arduino scene. I know people that was introduced to electronics with Arduino, and they are smart enough to understand that they need some technical book reading and a lot of practice to build something that works.Idiots are everywhere. But it's when comes the time that they must build something using some kind of tools, that the shit hits the fan.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:40:40 pm
content: Quote from: orbiter on December 11, 2013, 10:07:29 pmEasy! By trying to do it right without actually knowing what you're doing. Like a multiple choice test completely unprepared. Statistically, you'll probably do better with a 5 digit random number generator than trying to "guess" what the right answer is.But all beating up on the kid aside, If I were to offer up a kit I would make it completely clear that1. there would be no returns under any circumstances2. any "missing parts" need to be itemized and only those will be replaced.3. any problems with an order must be filed within something like 10 day otherwise the product will be considered to have arrived satisfactorily.4. you get something on the order of 4 support calls and 10 emails. Afterwards you will be charged per incident.5. THERE WILL BE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THE ABOVE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!Sure some people might call you a dick but I would think that would solve 99.9% of any issues that might come up with selling kits online.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:44:14 pm
content: That is so bad I'm feeling sorry for the guy that did it. In seriousness he may have some sort of learning difficulty.Also, I'm willing to bet paypal find in favour of the buyer here, they are insanely buyer orientated.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:44:31 pm
content: This is why plumbers should never do electrical work

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:53:44 pm
content: Quote from: TheSolderShack on December 11, 2013, 10:52:11 pmQFT

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 10:59:17 pm
content: With this slight caveat that the adult person has put the kid's name and callsign on the internet and that the fallout is now picked up by others and is beyond either party's control.

author: Flávio V
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: Thor-Arne on December 11, 2013, 10:16:09 pmThat tip is waaaaaaay too thin to create these great qualitysolders.Maybe he used a CPU heatsink to solder.

author: Simon123
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:22:22 pm
content: This is, what he used.http://mmc.bolha.com/1/image/97052/99569/Star-spajkalnik_4f26f35e0438c.jpgYou put it into the fire and wait until it heats up.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: TheSolderShack on December 11, 2013, 10:52:11 pmAgreed, but only for the guy that is honest and simply inexperienced. The guy that directly lies to your face, totally dicks it up then disputes the charge with paypal deserves to beBURNEDat the stake.He also sent some BS FBI letter:http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/?p=1194

author: Simon123
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:33:00 pm
content: Yea, looks like he used online no registration mailing service, so you cant trace his computer.http://emkei.cz/Beacuse FBI uses this ... :s

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:33:28 pm
content: 8086, just in case you don't quite understand the definition of the word 'typical' I thought I would include it here:typ·i·cal (tp-kl)adj.1. Exhibiting the qualities, traits, or characteristics that identify a kind, class, group, or category: a typical suburban community.2. Of or relating to a representative specimen; characteristic or distinctive.3. Conforming to a type: a composition typical of the baroque period.4. also typ·ic (-k) Of the nature of, constituting, or serving as a type; emblematic.[Late Latin typiclis, from typicus, from Greek tupikos, from tupos, impression.]When certain behavioral characteristics are observed in a large majority of any age dependent demographic as compared to not being observed in a small minority of said demographic, it can be inferred that those characteristics can be representative of that demographic (see number 2). I have friends and relatives all around the country in the various service industries who run into this same type of behavior of the same demographic that I previously mentioned. All of us can spend hours taking clandestine videos for empirical validation but I doubt that any of us would risk going to jail to prove the point to you.Also, those of us who do have a few years of life experience under our belts have learned to put filter systems and feedback loops in place so our brains are fully engaged before we open our mouths. I thought much harsher words than those I typed but did not use because I thought before I typed. I have generally noticed in life that the hurling of insults, ad hominem attacks and the spewing of vitriolic diatribe rarely make much ground in reasoned debate. It's OK that you disagree with me. I certainly have no issue with that. However, your choice of language toward me is far worse than any I may have used and sort of validates what I said earlier about typical behavior.I am glad to see that you take the proper business approach with your company. I hope you are successful beyond your wildest dreams and make more money than you could ever spend. I do think, however, that you may end up missing out on the true riches in life.

author: headwes
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:33:57 pm
content: There's athread on QRZabout this where the alleged buyer gets involved. First he claims "If you would love the honest truth, that's not my board!" followed by "It was a PayPal dispute that didn't favor the seller, and this entire oblivion erupted," and ends with "For everyone that cares, Dale is getting his money back partially."

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:38:10 pm
content: Quote from: TheSolderShack on December 11, 2013, 10:52:11 pmWhy do you think that would work? Because the next complaint you get is that the buyer claims the kit was faulty, because an "expert" didn't manage to solder it properly. So there must be something wrong with the PCB or the parts in the kit.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:53:32 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on December 11, 2013, 11:33:28 pmOh, would you look at that. An old person being condescending to young people. Howtypical.I guess I was born at exactly the wrong time to ever learn the meaning of words.Needless to say, I know what 'typical' means.QuoteI daresay you could. If validation is what you crave, you will find it endlessly wherever you look, whatever your POV.QuoteI, too, have 'a few years' of life experience under my belt. I don't suppose you bothered to find out exactly which year Gen. Y began? Some of us are up to 35 years old now.Believe it or not, bad language doesn't validate anything you choose to believe about us. Frankly, I find your bigotry far more offensive than any language, and even moreso than any language you would care to use if you felt comfortable to let loose on us without fear of reproach. I too thought about my post before I typed. I just felt it unnecessary to self censor when I was perfectly within the forum rules to post what I did post. I should point out that to a certain extent it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Clearly this was lost on you.QuoteYou think this because? My language? Insults? Hilarious. I'm as rich as I could be in every way that matters.I would say I may be richer than you in this sense, since I don't actually hate any particular group of people based on their age and exaggerated stereotypes not representative of the majority of those in said group.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 12:03:32 am
content: 8086.... you're starting to sound a bit like the soldering bazooka dude on this thread:Quote from: headwes on December 11, 2013, 11:33:57 pm

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 12:08:21 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 12, 2013, 12:03:32 amWell, that's okay. I think I'm justified in what I said. I don't intend to go on forever about it.I just don't like to think that bigots will not be challenged. If I have to do it, I will.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 01:11:07 am
content: c4757p, don't waste your breath. If he wants to feel justified in his choice of language, he can. If he wants to call me a bigot and a hater, he can do that too, it's OK, it doesn't bother me. I am long past the point in my life that I truly care what other people think of me. I know my heart and the motives within. It also seems to me that those who are quick to call others haters and bigots are usually the biggest haters and bigots themselves. Just read the newspapers and watch the news, it's all there. The wonderful thing is that we here have the freedom to say whatever we want to say without being repressed by a dictatorial government that monitors the internet and restricts freedom of speech in any form. Anything else that follows, is, to quote MacBeth, "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." 8086, have a great day.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 01:32:41 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 11, 2013, 07:04:06 pmI have my SMD iron all ready. Burning the garage as we speak to heat it up...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 02:43:27 am
content: Don't want to prolong the argument, but it's worth understanding that "Piss off..." in UK or Aus english is usually meant and interpreted as being on the same level as the sarcastic "Have aniceday!" in the US north-east, "Well, bless your heart!" in the south, or "Hey, dumbass!" in the south-west...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 02:46:26 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on December 12, 2013, 01:11:07 amWait.. that IS a US flag in your profile, isn't it?

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:07:39 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 12, 2013, 12:03:32 amsoldering bazooka... when you said that I got a picture in my mind of a bazooka launching a hot ball of solder...Now I want to build it and actually make a youtube video launching a 4-inch round ball of hot solder at the backside of a PCB from 10 feet.Need to heat the ball enough to overcome the cooling effect of 10 feet of wind LOLMaybe I'll leave it to photonic induction or someone else with a rail gunthe patented bazooka flow soldering method.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:17:41 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 11, 2013, 03:29:04 pm

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:33:30 am
content: Yes, monkeh, that IS an American flag. I suppose that I am one of those obnoxious Americans that the rest of the world talks about.Codeboy2K, I would think that if you built a potato gun that could be pressurized to 150 PSI (pounds per square inch not the greek letter), the speed that the ball of solder would come out would probably mitigate the cooling effect across 10 feet. I don't think we have to get as exotic as a rail gun. I know a ham that has one and he shot a tennis ball into the air that was filled with sand and it was almost out of sight in a blink of an eye. Thankfully, he fired it at a bit of an angle so it wouldn't come back down on us.SLJ, don't forget the backpack blower to fan the flamesTac Eht Xilef, I guess that since I was born in the north east and now live in the south, a like response would be "Have aniceday, bless your heart."Forgive the way I did this but I guess I am too much of a dumbass American to figure out how to put quotes from others into my post

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:36:01 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on December 12, 2013, 03:33:30 amWell, I see the education camps^W^W schools taught you well..

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 05:53:11 am
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on December 11, 2013, 10:40:40 pmThat's great and all, but doesn't work....Person is unhappy... person does a dispute with PayPal. You say to PayPal "but this person agreed to my terms and conditions when they placed the order, they look!".PayPal says "Yeah, and YOU agreed to OUR terms and conditions when YOU agreed to accept PayPal payments, LOOK" (and they show you where you agree to accept disputes, etc, etc, etc). Then they open an investigation and blah blah blah. Ultimately the guy says it doesn't work, you say he broke it, he says you sent him shoddy crap. Whether you win or lose, you get charged $25 for your trouble.Now if it was a credit card, it's the same deal.You do not have the right to remove the ability for a cardholder (or PayPal'er) to dispute a payment to you - and regardless of what your terms and conditions say, they are trumped by the PayPal or credit card terms and conditions - that is written right into their T&C'sSort of like how contracts can't trump the law. If you own a parking lot, I can put up a sign saying I am not responsible for any damage to cars in my lot. I can even make you sign something saying you agree I am not responsible for any damage to your car... and if you are at work and I crash into your car with another car I am parking......I am responsible for the damage to your car.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 09:08:49 am
content: Quote from: Thor-Arne on December 11, 2013, 10:16:09 pmI learnt to solder with one of those in the early 70's it is possible to make just as good a joint as with a modern temp controlled iron, I even had one I adapted for very fine work by drilling a hole in it and fitting a small copper rod, I still have a number of those irons and blow lamps now, never use them these days but if ever the power goes down for days while all others are panicking I can still be building stuff.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 12:13:58 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on December 11, 2013, 03:55:24 pmThis is counterproductive. Say it was his fault, ignore any further complaints, done.

author: Noize
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 12:45:16 pm
content: The story develops.Complaining about identifying him as shown in this pic of the link in the first post.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 01:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: Noize on December 12, 2013, 12:45:16 pmThis crudely faked "FBI" email was discussed in reply #16 and 'rediscovered' in reply #58.The individual in question is 15 years old and clearly filled with typically unfounded teenage belief in his own genius. His epic incompetence at soldering was rather brutally exposed to the world and he reacted very badly. He does appear to have shown some contrition after being chastised by respected hams on the QRZ forum.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:27:51 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on December 12, 2013, 05:53:11 amWell, so much for that idea!Granted I'm sure as hell no attorney but I'm not entirely sure it's the same thing, and yes I understand what you're getting at but I'm going to walk through just the same as a bit of a mental exercise and see where it winds up.In your garage scenario, I would think that would somehow fall under the category of negligence or destruction of private property. As a garage owner you would be charged with with the care and safe keeping of somebody else's property. This is the sole intent of the service rendered. When the vehicle owner hands over the keys, you enter into an implied good faith agreement that the vehicle will be returned on demand undamaged. By crashing cars in your lot you would be in breach of that implied contract.By selling a physical good at a store be it online or brick and mortar, you're transferring ownership from one actor to another, with the implied contract that the good is fit for a specific purpose. And by accepting the product and retaining possession of it for a certain length of time, which would be set by statue and probably vary from state to state, I would think that those actions would be considered fulfillment of both the expressed and implied contract and could be discharged at that point.Now as you already mentioned you entered into another separate contract with PayPal who's fulfillment is dependent upon the execution of different contract with a 3rd party. Since these are both valid and binding contracts, which one "legally" trumps the other given that the terms of each may be in direct conflict? Any lawyers lurking here want to stick their two cents in on this one? I feel like I've just wandered into a tort law 101 class. lol

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:01:39 pm
content: If the seller wants to be a stickler about it they should have told him if he had returned it in "Like New" condition he would have received a full refund. I think it's a little past like new condition. You can submit photos to PayPal but I think they will side with the buyer anyway. Still if it was me I'd would have given my reply to the buyer and my side to PayPal if the buyer had filed a claim and then dropped the whole thing. Posting it and making it public along with the buyers name was not a good marketing move. Maybe the buyer would have red the posts and replies and learned something but posting his name in the post would only tick him off.

author: fenclu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 07:07:02 pm
content: Crap, is that the shit you have to take when you have a kit business?

author: Zepnat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 07:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on December 12, 2013, 01:32:41 amHey are you laughing at my soldering station?Seriously though I still occasionally use one of these, the thermal mass is huge great for heavy duty stuff, Just make sure no one in authority sees you spark up the butane burner!

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 10:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on December 12, 2013, 03:27:51 pmNot being a lawyer myself (thank relevant deity), I've found that the finest details of technical correctness are hammered out in a court of law. In cases like you mention, the buyer always has the right to do a chargeback, whether it be through PayPal or through their credit card. In that case, PayPal or your credit card processor will start an investigation, and in the meantime charge you a $25 fee. The investigation is nowhere near as fair or as "technically correct according to the law" as a court would be. You get a form to fill out... and the results are heavily weighed in favor of the buyer, unless you are a huge merchant (like Amazon or such) in which case you have sufficient pull with the card issuer to actually have a separate contract governing disputes. I have actually heard that companies like Amazon are so large as to have separate agreements that cover fixed amounts that are just accepted as chargebacks... so I think that if you do a chargeback against Amazon charges, no investigation may even take place, it is all done on some sort of insurance-type basis where, say 0.5% of all transactions by dollar volume that Amex clears for Amazon are refunded as fraud as a negotiated amount.Anyway, as a small merchant, you are generally hopelessly outgunned in this matter, and I would imagine that in most cases, it would come down to a he-said/she-said dispute where the buyer has returned the item, the seller disputes the condition of the returned item. The card issuer would have proof that the seller acknowledges getting the item back, and per the credit card T&C, you are likely obligated to accept returns if the buyer disputes the item met it's original stated description. I would guess that it's, at best, a 50/50 proposition that the vendor would win the dispute.. and even if they do, they still pay the chargeback fee of $25-50, and the investigation usually takes weeks or months to conclude, during which time the funds are held... and they wind up with an unusable part, a pissed off customer, and the chargeback counts as a black mark against them - get too many and your rates go up, or your merchant account gets yanked.It's really a lose/lose proposition, unfortunately. Very unfair to the seller.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 06:23:21 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on December 12, 2013, 01:35:52 pmFirst of all, I thought I was a bad solderer until I saw this. I've been in an electronics class where they just melt crap and pry off components with a soldering iron (it was not a really great teacher... according to him a $4 soldering iron is basically as good as a $40 temp controlled one. Uh huh.). Every single one of the students there soldered better than this. This type of "soldering" (can you even say it's soldering anymore?) takes some kind of sick, twisted skill.Now, the thing is, I'm only a few year older than this kid. And I'm honestly sick of hearing older people constantly hammer on the younger generation, mostly due to people like this. Not everyone my age is as bad as this (I know, typical). Of course I know that this is the instant gratification age, and most kids get what they want, and can't seem to fathom that they might, in fact, be wrong. I freely admit that I do this sometimes, heck, a lot of the time! But personally, I can't even think about doing this. I know I'm nowhere near an expert in electronics, heck, I can't even figure out an arduino half the time. So what? I'm learning. But this kid... this kid is just... wrong.But the thing is, the old people are right! (No offense, "old" people!). This generation, my generation, is filled with a bunch of people that want a bunch of crap, don't want to work for it, and want to take no responsibility whatsoever for their actions. Look at teen pregnancy, drunk driving and texting while driving accidents. What is more, is that when we are wrong, suddenly the hard work ethic comes out, but only to try to get out of whatever mess we are in. Like this kid, making up FBI emails and messaging, going through PayPal. Ingenious, sure, flawed, yes, but think about what would happen if the kid put all that energy into *shudder*learningthings.It really makes me angry to hear such bad things about my generation from older people. Maybe it's just me. Yeah, I know a lot of the good kids who would take responsibility, and do the right thing. But everyday I see stuff like this happen, kids get in trouble, kids making "accidents" and making the wrong choices, and I have to say that a lot of the time, your guys' anger toward my generation is probably well deserved. I just hope that myself personally, and everyone else, can help change this.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 10:50:30 am
content: After this thread im actually thinking my soldering is ok quality... Newer seen that bad. Have seen 8 years old kids solder first time and do better then those pictures in OP.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 05:53:06 pm
content: Quote from: TheBorg on December 13, 2013, 06:23:21 amA $4 one is about as good as the average $40 'temp controlled' one. Now, spend another $20-30, and you're getting somewhere.

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2013, 11:52:19 pm
content: Here is the soldering technique I believe he used. Note the proper tool needed to melt that pesky solder.

author: israel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 12:17:10 pm
content: maybe bought the "Ultimate kit smd"

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 12:21:11 pm
content: Ok folks, I think it's about time we had a voice of reason here. While I don't mind poking a little fun at somebody who screws up, this thread is starting to get a little out of hand and has become really mean spirited. Also, nobody here knows the back stories or what's actually going on between the two principal parties in this, and they need to just be allowed to work it out between themselves in whatever manner they see fit. There's a lot of hearsay going on and nobody needs their names dragged through the mud on a public forum which will never EVER be removed from the annals of the internet. A lot of damage can be done both emotionally and financially to either or both parties and I hope Dave or one of the moderators here reads this and locks the thread, putting an end to the whole thing. In the mean while, would it be too much to ask for everybody to ease up and act like mature adults?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 01:20:24 pm
content: Having read most of what has been written regarding this debarcle....... I have to saySTORM IN A TEACUPYes a 15 year old made a serious error of judgement in tackling a project for which he was not yet ready (running before you can walk) and he made a more serious error of judgement by taking the line he did with the supplier of the kit. He is 15 years old and has much to learn, but IMHO the whole situation got well out of hand and turned into the biggest witch hunt I have seen in years.I do not have a great deal of time for the seller instigating such a witch hunt and especially for naming the 'child', as that is what he is in law. No one came out of this very well.I have to agree with ampdoctor, stop wasting your life (its short enough anyway) writing about this and let the thread die, unless of course you enjoy a good witch hunt against a childLife goes on and has been said many times before .... move along please, nothing to see here

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 01:30:12 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 14, 2013, 01:20:24 pm15 years old is not a child. Next year he'll be driving an 8000lb turbo diesel truck with his I'm better than you attitude, he is dangerous. If he comes up against any friction he'll just deliberately lie about it, then if he doesn't get his way he'll conjure up a fake FBI letter and lie some more, where does it stop?When you F-up this bad you deserve it, hope it teaches him a life lesson, which he desperately needs.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 02:39:45 pm
content: I vote - Lock the Thread.(I know it's not a democracy and Dave can do anything he wants but if we could vote I would vote to end this discussion)

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2013, 02:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on December 14, 2013, 02:39:45 pmWhy lock it? The internet is full of opinions, so far it's civil, if someone is really offended they can simply not click on it.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 12:13:57 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on December 14, 2013, 02:42:50 pmPerhaps a general 'be careful' would be a good translation.I'm feeling the same way after reading the various parts of drama on the web following this event -- not everything is as serious as I expected.Quote from: TheSolderShack on December 11, 2013, 10:52:11 pm+1Neither side here has done an amiable job. Align yourself based on what you like: not what you hate.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 12:37:17 am
content: Fair point in that going public with the issue he should be taught a very very valuable life lesson.However no need for a name and shame, terrible thing to happen anyone over something so trivial.

author: Phroon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 12:53:26 am
content: Quote from: Kryoclasm on December 13, 2013, 11:52:19 pmTisk tisk tisk. There's a clear lack of good flux. This should be enough for that board.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 02:11:13 am
content: Quote from: bookaboo on December 15, 2013, 12:37:17 amI'm not so sure about "trivial". IMHO trying to initiate a chargeback for something that you received in perfect condition is theft. Notliketheft, but actual, realtheft. And I have no sympathy for thieves.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 06:11:17 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 15, 2013, 02:11:13 amThanks! You brought a tear to my eye for thinking for the poor vendorAnd you are absolutely right. This "kid" is attempting to steal. He presumably made an agreement with the vendor, then reneged on that agreement and tried to do an end-run around his word and get his money back, costing the vendor money in the process, and lied to the credit card company in the process.As is the case with so many young folks these days, zero personal responsibility. The fake FBI follow-up email just digs the hole even deeper, and ironically is a crime in itself.There is a story in the news here about the kid who killed 4 people while driving drunk and got 10 years probation (no time in jail) because he was the victim of "rich parents" and lived a life of privilege and had no idea of personal responsibility. Whatever ones opinion about that case, it illustrates the very real dangers of what can happen when young people grow up without learning the repercussions of their actions.This particular young person has already made one grave mistake and compounded it, then compounded it again. It's not looking good for him.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 06:19:30 am
content: Corporate666, I read about that case. If I did that, I wouldn't have even gotten bail. I am also with you, I side with the vendor. I also think the real FBI should be looking into the fake FBI email. If nothing else, that young man needs the fear of God and the black suburbans put into him. I might have to check out the seller's site and buy something in a show of support.

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 07:49:20 am
content: I once had an intern who soldered almost as bad as that. He managed to create multiple solder bridges, and lots of cold joints, on a small 100 mil spacing through hole board with solder mask.The worst part was that he declared the board as bad and threw it out when I asked him what happened to it.He only lasted about a week, son of a friend of the owner or something.Anyway, I'm sure if the creator of the "fine" mess of the kit had just contacted the seller and told that he f-ed up, the seller would probably have taken pity on him and just fixed it for the cost of shipping. But I don't like that the seller posted the buyers details, IMO that is worse than the childish fake mail.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 09:55:15 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on December 15, 2013, 06:11:17 amI don't know why i find that so funny, i think it's the "Hmm... he has no idea of personal responsibility? LET US NOT TEACH HIM PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!"

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 12:23:55 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on December 15, 2013, 06:11:17 amSo we're all for data protection and privacy laws until a 15 year old makes a mistake? Maybe we should name and shame every young person that commits an offence?Besides, look at the photos. this isn't theft, its immaturity and incompetence on a massive scale.Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone... step up all of you who have never done anything really dumb in your teens.(Don't get me wrong, aside from the naming I'm with the vendor. I sell online myself and its just lol what some people will try)

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 12:27:22 pm
content: I've done stupid things as a teen, sure. And at 15, I was old enough to understand that if I stole, I totally deserved karma to take a big shit on me.If I were the vendor, I wouldn't have named him. And I might think twice about buying from him, lest something I do annoy him and he does it to me. But I cannotfeel bad that it happened to this kid. He earned it.As for Chinese Whispers - once the kid admitted that he did this, he no longer contested a single claim against him. I'm led to believe they're true. He basically said everything the seller said once he hit the rock at the bottom of this hole he dug.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 12:46:23 pm
content: Quote from: bookaboo on December 15, 2013, 12:23:55 pmYou must have been on Ethan Couch's jury panel.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 12:54:25 pm
content: This is starting to feel like a witch hunt to me, except I can picture a mob of angry nerds not holding rakes and pitchforks, but soldering irons and hot air guns.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 12:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on December 15, 2013, 12:54:25 pmDo I get to have a Taser if I make it myself with the soldering iron?

author: Andrea :)
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 01:24:26 pm
content: I personally did some bad soldering when i sarted electronics but well i didnt know you can do such a bad job

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 02:40:28 pm
content: I am a fan of the Clint Eastwood Westerns and as the whole issue appears to be centred in the USA, I had an image in my mind of the angry mob dragging the 15 year old to a tree and hanging him for his sins....... it wasn't that many years ago that such would have happened in the unforgiving wild West where theft = hanging ? I hope the USA has become somewhat more forgiving since those days.EDIT:Damn I am doing what I suggested others didn't....prolonging the 'conversation'. Sorry to all who want this thread to die. It is hard to resist though

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 04:23:23 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 15, 2013, 02:40:28 pmNot to worry. All we need is for the daft soldering suggestions to finish escalating and it will inexorably fade away or drift off topic like many long-running threads on this forum.Perhaps we can speed up the process a little:"I reckon he dropped the PCB down a lead mine with a supertanker full of flux and a large thermonuclear device".

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 04:52:19 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 15, 2013, 02:40:28 pmWhy do you care what other people "talk" about?

author: mrkev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 06:58:21 pm
content: When I was about 10yo, we had this electronics club. There was one guy, little bit younger than me and his soldering looked exactly like this...But suprisingly everything he ever build was running at first go...I've never figured out how he did that... Especially because we usually got problems as we used old pieces and parts soldered out from various wreckage...

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2013, 11:56:26 pm
content: Quote from: bookaboo on December 15, 2013, 12:23:55 pmI guess I was fortunate that I had parents that taught me right from wrong.Sad is his soldering skills, he needs lots more practice or someone to help him understand how.That aside, the part where he tries to defraud the seller isUNEXCUSABLE.Had I done the same thing at that age, my dad would have made sure I was walking with welps across my legs. Believe me, corporal punishment goes a long way to make youkeep you thinking about what you didto make sitting unpleasant.I have a feeling that a lack of proper correction is lacking in his life, not to mention a lot of the current younglings today.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2013, 12:09:29 am
content: Quote from: Kryoclasm on December 15, 2013, 11:56:26 pmFear is not the same as respect. Even if the practical outcome is the same, it is achieved at what cost?.Corporal punishment is a lazy solution to a short term problem that simply breeds different, longer term problems./tooseriousforthisforum

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2013, 12:21:26 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on December 16, 2013, 12:09:29 amLong term problems like what?Believe me, I respect everyone who has morals. The cost? Learning at a young age how to be a responsible person.If your children grow up to be good people just using kind speech, you are fortunate.The only thing I had to fear in my young life was getting caught doing something I knew I was not or should not have been doing.

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2013, 08:03:40 am
content: What was the kit, I like a good kit to build personally.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2013, 12:28:40 pm
content: here is a blurb from the hamgadgets.com website on the ID-O-Matic:ID timer/repeater controller with Morse code outputKeyed CW, audio, and PTT outputsPTT/audio combination for keying HTs2-channel audio mixer for repeater audio and IDOptional de-emphasis for repeater audioSuper-easy USB port for configurationFan control with auto delayTom, NW0LF