So Dremel now has a 3D Printer.   Does this signal mainstream? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2015, 08:48:02 pm
content: So, Dremel now has a $999 retail 3D Printer.http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00NA00MWS/Is this the beginning of the market entering mainstream average person purchase stage?How long before we see this in big box stores? Will it be the just have gift for dad next Christmas?

author: engineer_in_shorts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 05:48:02 pm
content: I saw that RS have one now:http://www.edn-europe.com/en/rs-stirs-3d-printer-market-with-launch-of-own-brand-budget-price-model.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=10005918&vID=209Who are all these people that need 3D printers? Hasn't everyone realized that they are pointless?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 06:10:30 pm
content: Quote from: nixfu on January 15, 2015, 08:48:02 pmIt will be mainstream the moment the user intervention is the same as a coffee machine.Fill plastic, press button.The real money is there for the guy that makes it work from a TV remote control.See a nice object on TV, press button, take your printed crap. (an call yourself a maker or hacker)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2015, 08:00:27 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on March 04, 2015, 06:10:30 pmgives a whole new meaning to 'as seen on tv'and no more 'plus shipping and handling'

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 04:31:36 am
content: Actually, one of the few good uses I have seen for these things is making enclosures for small electronic gadgets. Makes mounting points for boards, switches, keyboards, displays and sensors all in just two pieces (base and cover or left/right) and can even have labels/instructions. And the hours it takes to print something are good times to sleep, design and build the things that go into the fancy box.From what I have heard the $1000 ones are really pretty worthless, and it is better to let someone else spend the $3000 to $8000 to get something useful and just send them the file. Kind of like PWBs.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 01:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 05, 2015, 04:31:36 amThe problem is they look rubbish due to poor surface finish

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 03:51:25 pm
content: Yes poor quality and if you need quantities you,re better off with the real manufacturers products since only the mold can cost €100k.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 05:29:28 pm
content: I agree the surface finish is rubbish. But I am talking about small quantity stuff, often for personal use. When I fab boxes from scratch, whether it is wood, aluminum or other materials the result is often not commercially appealing. When I stuff everything in a project box the same answer holds. It will be years, if ever, before 3D printing competes with molding for commercial external parts. Unit costs, surface finish, material selection - there are a myriad of ways in which it doesn't compete.If surface finish really matters, filling, sanding and painting are options. In my shop the surface finish of even the commercial boxes is poor because of all of the dings from tools and other rough handling.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 05:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 05, 2015, 04:31:36 amcorrection... making:1) custom enclosures that hard to get in market without breaking the bank for a single custom mold specifically designed to your lust.2) hard to manufacture component in garage without breaking the bank for cnc/mill/lathe machine that can sink your house.3) stepping stone for another bigger 3d printer that can cost your lung.4) pla replica of your own deek without anyone else noticing.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 05, 2015, 04:31:36 amcorrection... ...$1000 ones are really pretty worthless, and its better to get $300 to $500 to get something useful...Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 05, 2015, 05:29:28 pmmechanically keen people are venturing the possibilities of FDM technique into serious manufacturing jargon such as "negative" or "lost wax cast" molding technique etc. so its just a matter of time... mechanically keen people are waiting with excitement... FDM is now in the grasp (after the patent expired) of mechanically keen mortals.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 05:49:10 pm
content: At least with a cnc you can make things from aluminium.Plastick will only go so far.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 06:03:19 pm
content: and aluminium block may cost you like what? there are some area where metal is too much wasted, resulting higher cost product, and sometime we dont need it to be metal or require to such precision, or providing extra dimension or tolerance thereof to compensate for the force.. and producing almost everything with something you can grab and swing like supermarket basket is never happening before.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 07:41:39 pm
content: Most persons I know that bought a 3D printer use them a couple of times, download some designs and then it is stuck in the closet waisting space.I know very little persons that actually on a regular basis print something usefull.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 07:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 05, 2015, 07:41:39 pmthere's the problem... granted 3d printer is not for everybody, just as photo printer to someone who doesnt produce photos, and just as desktop printer to someone incapable of using a computer...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 07:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 05, 2015, 05:49:10 pmAbsolutely true, but ... where is the 'push a single button' cnc mill and get object ? And if it does exist , what does it cost ?game over.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 08:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 05, 2015, 01:56:42 pmacetone vapour bathQuote from: Mechatrommer on March 05, 2015, 07:47:05 pmthis.3d printing will get a bump with a wave of next gen 3d camera phones - googles project Tango, apples unknown piece of shit (they bought Primesense, maker of the first Kinect 3d camera), even intel is pushind 3d camera in newest ultrabooks.People are too clueless to do 3D design, they hear CAD and shit a brick. It will change when some yolo tween can whip out her iPhony, 'photo' a pair of earings of another trollop in da club, and print them/order on shapeways the next day.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2015, 08:31:02 pm
content: Agree, but even the colleague of mine that has spent two months learning the ropes of CAD software and get it going was frustrated that his $1400 3D printer took 23 hours to print a simple design and after 9 hours or so a little offset error in one of the axis spoilt the whole design. And not once, over and over. Those 3D printers are toys, not up to the real long hours printing work needed.His reaction: learn CAD software if you need to create something, safe yourself the $ for your own 3D printer and just outsource the manufacturing to a pro company.

author: navzptc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:24:09 am
content: Quote from: engineer_in_shorts on March 04, 2015, 05:48:02 pmI have one of those 3D printers, not bought from RS, but from a similar online seller who sells it (VAT included) at only a few pounds more than the RS ex-VAT price - yes it is a steep learning curve to tame the beast and get the best from it - but it can produce very good results for a very reasonable price - I have modified mine to have a heated bedplate and now always print onto glass which gives a very smooth surface.I spent a while using both versions of the software available from the manufacturer before purchasing Simplify 3D (after finding out the custom settings required) and have not looked back - and have now put in a pre-order for the latest Ultimaker 2 extended unit, but will also keep this printer - Making parts for my RC Helicopters at a fraction of what they would cost from commercial suppliers (custom interior parts etc.) will soon mean it pays for itself in addition to the fun of making odds and sods for the grandkids etcYou may think they are pointless, but some people do find advantages in owning a 3D printer - I know I do!!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:33:16 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 05, 2015, 08:31:02 pmThat's very inefficient for fast prototyping. I sent once a design to Shapeways and it tooks two weeks to arrive. On my own machine I can make several iterations a day. Sometimes I print just a small critical section of the design and iterate on it even faster.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 09:28:44 am
content: I think the biggest problem with 3D printing is that what is a tool that's excellent for many applications is being touted as a universal tool for everyone, which is simply ridiculous.Low cost stereolithography machines and resins could make it a lot more useful though, as this should improve the finish quality and resolution substantially.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 12:08:39 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 06, 2015, 09:28:44 amIt will be in 50 years. The technology is still in a very early stage, especially the low end machines.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 12:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 06, 2015, 09:28:44 am+1Quote from: zapta on March 06, 2015, 12:08:39 pmI love them but I don't think they can be a universal tool. Like subtractive manufacturing additive manufacturing has it's own pro's and cons. But in 50 years time you may be able to easily transfer your 3D print from your cheap but works well out of the box 3D printer into your cheap but works well out of the box desktop mill and have it do the finishing without user intervention...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 02:18:20 pm
content: I marked my calendar to revisit this thread in 50 years. We will be smarter then.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 03:21:04 pm
content: I think 3D printing will be similar in development and usage to conventional printing on paper.At first there was limited possibilities to print something (printing your own photos was messy business, typewriter for a text), then various printing technologies emerged (dot matrix, inkjet, laser printer). The first color printers were expensive, but people viewed them as alternative for printing shops (printing own photos was cheaper than in a shop). Industry progressed to a stage where printers are cheap(-ish) with almost all cost in printing materials and quality printing at home is more expensive. Thus, typical user is better off by not having color printer and going to a specialised shop.I guess 3D printing will follow similar path. Why bother wasting your money (for printer/materials/electricity), time, health, nerves on homemade crap 3D print when you can get much better results in specialised shop? It all boils down to economy of scale and the fact that 2D/3D printing is a niche thing (you don't need that everyday). Someone who prints 24/7 will know how to do it better and cheaper than you.Only advantage you get by owning 2D/3D printer (assuming everything works as it should...) is direct control of the process.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 06:22:18 pm
content: Yeah the same thinking mistake was made in the 70's when everybody would develop their own foto,s you could buy cheap starter sets and you only needed running water and a dark room.Or how about the make yourself pcb,s cnc milling machines.Who does that anymore now the cheap pro pcb businesses can do it ten times better and cheaper than such an expensive apparatus.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 07:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 06, 2015, 06:22:18 pmNot too many households would benefit from a PCB making appliance. It's a tiny market.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 06:32:18 am
content: Quote from: zapta on March 06, 2015, 12:08:39 pmThe laws of physics or engineering don't change for the convenience of the consumer - that's why we don't have flying cars or personal robots or food rehydration machines or anything we saw in SciFi movies or The Jetsons.The way manufacturing is implemented now is largely a function of the properties needed for the final product and the costs/benefits/drawbacks associated with the various manufacturing methods.That won't change. 3D printing won't become cheaper than injection molding just because that would be nice for the consumer, nor will the surface finish rival injection molding simply because we wish it would be so.I think 3D printers will tend to get even more specialized and fill a smaller niche, just like most other tools. I remember when CNC machines were first coming out, and people predicted that in 20 years, everyone would have a CNC machine at home that would make the parts they needed. When asked about CAD and CAM (which was hard at the time), people suggested that the market demands simple CAD/CAM and so the market will get it.20+ years on, and CNC machining is even more specialized than it was back then, and CAD/CAM is much more complicated than it was 20-30 years ago.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 12:07:07 pm
content: I like the 3D printers that are capable of printing useful things, like a electronics enclosure that's worth 4 euro.Especially the low-budget machines, starting at 80.000 euro.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 12:12:13 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 05, 2015, 07:55:32 pmRight. I own one that nearly confirms to the on-button usability. It's an in-those-years-expensive ISEL PCB engraver.Unfortunately it needs 3 hours for a PCB and makes terrible noise and dust.Game over :-)

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 12:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 07, 2015, 06:32:18 amYou are right, It will not happen outside the one-button-usage.I refuse to discuss with people that "know-much and tell-much" about 3D printing, but never heard about a CNC machine. A 3D printer is always a CNC machine. For example with a cheap/expensive extruder in place of another cheap/expensive tool.And that doesn't change anything about the user.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 01:36:43 pm
content: Yes, the same that goes for a cnc machine goes for a 3d printer. I have bought a cheap cnc machine at €4k. Yes it can mill 2d plastick, wood even aluminium if you cool it but not steel and the mill on it only has 10000-40000rpm while for some materials you rather go down to 800rpm.It only weighs aroun 100kg, for steel you need a 800 or more kg monster with hf spindle coolants and precision of 0,001mm or so, starting new at €60000 and 2nd hand around €8000 but usually these are old fashioned obsolete software and hardware good luck supporting it. Besides who has the room for these machines? Maybe in the US you can add a barn to your house on the prairy for $20k here in Europe most people luve in small houses getting noise complaints from neighbours when they drill a hole in the walls