Should I market this thing, and how? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: blueskull
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 am
content: I designed an ultra high density laptop power supply and I'm thinking to market it through a crowdfunding platform like IGG (no KS since it's only open to English speaking country citizens).Before pulling the trigger, I want to know how do you guys think about this.Project link:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/a-46win3-power-adapter-with-active-pfc/So far, these are the strengths my design distinguishes itself from other ones:1. Very high power density. 5x the power density (W/in3) compared to latest Delta power bricks. This thing fits in any smallest pouch in your laptop bag.2. Very high efficiency: 96%+ peak, 94%+ over 50%~100% load range, 92%+ over 10%~100% range, less than 50mW idle power.3. Uses only 2 pin AC input, allowing to carry with only mini power cord.And of course, here is the deadly drawback: it is very expensive. To make 20% gross profit, it has to be sold at $250 at 1kpcs. $250 includes all BOM, assembling cost (wire bonding service, PCBA assembly labor), shipping cost (PCBA from US to China and worldwide finished product shipping from China), financing cost (8% IGG cut), customer service cost (AFR related) and profit margin.I'm mainly targeting users of high performance gaming laptops, mobile workstations and DIYers who want to make their ultimate tiny PC. They don't like the huge power bricks, and they have the money.The device can output 180W/240W (depending on efficiency requirement) at 18V~20V, which covers most laptop's input range. Exact output voltage can be factory programmed.AFAIK, most laptops use 19.5V input (Dell, Lenovo, MSI, Sony/Vaio and most gaming bare bones), while some use slightly lower voltage (18.5V for HP, 19V for ASUS).Geographically, I'm targeting areas with many high performance (gaming, workstation) laptop users. I'm mainly targeting China and EU. US will be on my list, but not now.The reason I'm not targeting US is because to legally sell into US, my factory needs an NRTL certificate. But since I don't have a factory (it will be either a backyard shop, or a very small Chinese OEM), I can't get UL or Intertek nor CSA certificate (correct me if my understanding is wrong).However, CE is a self certificate, as long as I do the test in a reasonable lab and I buy enough insurance, I should be okay. Chinese CCC certificate only requires device samples, not factory quality control (again, correct me if I am wrong).Also since I'm on F1 visa in US, starting a company and sell to US (which competes US workers) violates my visa agreement, so I can't afford selling to US. But if I can get the certificate thing settled, I can circumvent this by starting a company in China and hire a puppet to legally run it.For EMI certificates, my understanding is that US/EU CISPR22/32 is not mandatory for power supplies. PSU needs to be certified with digital products, not itself alone. Chinese CCC doesn't mandate EMC certificate nor verification on most products except for some special high frequency ones like computers.With that being said, I take EMC seriously and it's never a good thing to spit a lot of radio crap.Product quality will be top notch, though I might just use a small backyard factory, but they only do the simple things -- attach input flex PCB module to main PCB, solder HV DC bus electrolytic capacitor, solder input/output jacks and put the finished board to enclosure and packing box.I will hire an English speaking person to handle RMA and shipping, so western customers won't have communication problems.The real hard part, which contains wire bonding of bare dice, SMT soldering, visual quality inspection, encapsulation and function testing will be done largely automated in US by myself or outsourced to university labs at a cost.TLDR;Questions:1. Do you think I will ever get people to be interested in my product?2. Can you think of a way that I can legally sell to the US? I don't mind a reshipper, but myself won't sell this to the US before I find a way to clear the certification problems.3. I'm also interested in selling to Japan as people there seems to be very fascinated in small and well crafted gadgets and they have a large population of computer nerds. I will be very appreciated if anyone can tell me what kind of certificate do I need to legally sell there.4. Should I go with IGG or conventional webshop business model (8% cut with guaranteed buyers vs 5% APR without any guarantee of sales)? The answer is usually IGG for a startup, but China has very low financing cost, so that may also worth a look.[MOD: if you think this thread doesn't belong here, feel free to move it to crowd funding section, but I think since it discusses more than crowd funding only, it should be either here or projects section].

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 08:40:17 am
content: The first thing that comes to mind isWhy?I get that laptops these days can be ultra-thin and lightweight but unless you're carrying them in a slim-line sleeve of sorts, what's the point? If I'm going to the trouble of carrying around a laptop bag (and anything that requires a mains plug), the size of the brick is fairly irrelevant in my opinion.I'm sure there will be some specialised uses for a high efficiency but tiny PSU, but I can't think of one where I personally would use it (and I do on-site field work). Why would a user spend extra money for a smaller version of a PSU that already comes with their product?In designing your product, I'm sure you had some ideas in mind where this might be necessary (especially at the increased price). As for the "gamers" who choose huge "laptops", I doubt the size of the power brick is very relevant either. They are already lugging around a few kilo's worth of machine.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 09:39:17 am
content: Halcyon, you definitely aren't the target market! I think if it had a nice enough enclosure, Blueskull, that will help a lot for marketing.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 09:58:07 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on May 01, 2017, 09:39:17 amI realise I'm not, but I'm failing to think of who would be... Apple users perhaps? (Who like expensive things in pretty packaging?)I'm sure there would be a market for it, but I think the demand would be very low, considering the suggested price tag. I can buy high efficiency, hot-swappable server power supplies for less than that.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 10:16:30 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amYou need to be making way more than 20% to be viable. Sounds like it's just too expensive.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 10:21:18 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 01, 2017, 10:16:30 amI agree; probably too expensive to be viable in the market. How many people would be willing to spend $250 on a no-name power supply?And I understand that you are assuming direct sales from China, which makes this an even tougher sell. Or does your $250 sales price include a healthy margin for international resellers?

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 10:22:07 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 01, 2017, 08:40:17 amI have a brick that'd change your opinion!(Dell XPS M1730 brick, 220W out, a bit over 1 kg. Roughly 20x10x5 cm.)As for the topic at hand: $250 is way too much, even for a well-crafted PSU. It just doesn't matterthatmuch.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 10:58:25 am
content: It is above what people would pay for a switching power supply now. If you do run, I shall get one as a support to a great guy like you in this forum.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 11:10:38 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amYou can't go around certification. CE isn't self certificaton if you are outside the EU. All in all exporting large quantities will be impossible to anywhere. Also the certification process will very likely show there are problems in your design you don't know about yet.I think you should sell it for $400 or so and make it look really really slick/good with a nice power cord following the latest audiophool style. Perhaps go for medical certification.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 11:22:12 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amHave you done any EMC tests to prove that it is possible to meet emissions limits without a ground connection ?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 11:47:44 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 01, 2017, 11:10:38 amHuh? Do you have a reference for that?In my understanding, the non-EU manufacturer still self-certifies. The EU distributor or importer bears additional responsibility; in particular he has to help to provide the documentation which underlies the self-certification to European authorities upon request. But there is no need to involve external test labs, accredited bodies or whatever, as long as you have the required expertise to self-certify -- just as for a manufacturer who is based in the EU.Very brief but official summary here, for example:http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 11:57:30 am
content: Focusing primarily on point 1, because if the fundamental economics work out, the others mostly fall away.I agree with @mike: you need more than 20% gross margin, a lot more. 33% is probably more like a barest minimum and 50% is more typical, especially at low volume. Low volume will kill you on net margin, because all of the NRE and other "startup" costs.Now, as to the market. I admit to not being in that specific market, but I am in several other hobbies where "cost is not a significant object", so I'm used to spending "stupid money" for some things. I can't see many people spending $300+ for an aftermarket power supply because it's lighter and smaller.No reason not to put it out on Kickstarter when you're ready; that's some of the cheapest and easiest market validation you'll ever get. I think what you'll find is that people mostly don't care enough about size to pry open their wallets to the tune of $300+ for a smaller power supply when the one they have works perfectly.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 12:04:16 pm
content: Hey blueskull, re-reading your initial post, I realize that I need help on two of your business-related acronyms. For my education, what do you mean by IGG and APR in this context, please? Thanks!http://www.acronymfinder.com/IGG.htmlhttp://www.acronymfinder.com/APR.html

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 12:27:59 pm
content: IGG: IndiegogoQuote from: Halcyon on May 01, 2017, 09:58:07 amhells to the no. my macbook's charger is waaaay expensive, at 60€

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 08:19:11 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 01, 2017, 11:22:12 amI suspect that's dependant on the laptop connected to it, as much as the power supply. I've had laptops in the past with a two pin AC input on the PSU. Both Toshiba: one from circa 1993 and another from 1997. I no longer have said laptops and don't know whether they would meet the relevant standards today.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 08:35:30 pm
content: Macbooks have a 2-pin input on the "small" US duckbill (and the small EU duckbill).

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 08:47:59 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amMake it programmable by the user and you may have a winner. Advertise it with some huge warranty and ability to reuse it with future products by setting the voltage and changing the output cable and then cost may not seem like a big deal, you'd have the universal adapter.If you have some software in it, shouldn't be too hard to add a microusb or maybe the output connector (where you'd plug various cables with different connectors for different laptops) could have a couple extra pins and have an custom cable for programming it. maybe have a tiny eink display to update the voltage the power supply is configured to so user will always know what the psu is configured to? (if needed the circuitry to drive the eink could be hidden in the special cable required for configuration)may wanna considering adding 5v as an output option.. people could then just unplug the cable and replace it with a usb cable and then charge their tablets using your product. Could also have 5v and 12v for external hdd boxes this way with another custom cable.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 08:52:47 pm
content: I just bought a $180 psu for my new pc from BeQuiet.There is a market but you have to do some serious marketing.1k pcs will be tricky from a new noname no reputation company.I would suggest something flashy to pull the crowd, not just the best specs that is only important to us electronics minded people. You need to appeal to get the people with real money to spend like the celibrities, like titanium, platinum, gold, mother of pearl , silver or other casing. Does not matter to those people if it is $300 or $700 as long as it is something very luxurious and special.Good luck.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 09:00:17 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 01, 2017, 11:47:44 amWhich is exactly why you can't self certify outside the EU. No sane distributor/importer will take that risk.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 09:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 01, 2017, 09:00:17 pmAs you most lilely know very well, "self-certification" does not mean that you just slap a CE label onto your product. You are obliged to document your compliance analysis and measurements, and make it available to the authorities upon requist. (Whether you are a manufacturer based within or outside the EU.) I find your statement that self-certification does not apply to non-EU manufacturers rather misleading.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 09:54:53 pm
content: It is not misleading because in the end it comes down to the same. Any sane distributor/importer will want to have legal issues covered and therefore demand a report from a notified body. Even with devices made in the EU some distributors will want to see that paperwork before they consider selling your product in the EU.In theory you could do your own measurements but the cost of equipment, special rooms and traceable calibrations will be astronomical. I don't know if you ever had one of your designs certified but just the amount of equipment needed is staggering.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2017, 10:49:09 pm
content: There are plenty of products that it would be reasonable to self-certify with little or no testing.A power supply however is vary far from being one of them.Apart from RF emissions, which it will almost certainly fail first time, especially with a novel design from someone without extensive experience of designing and testing PSUs, you have the whole safety side of things.A PSU can easily kill someone, burn the house down or destroy the thing it's connected to. To contemplate selling one without proper testing is just stupid.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 12:15:45 am
content: I think this is one of those cases where "good enough" is going to be the enemy of "the best." Modern laptop power supplies are already getting pretty small, and being thin is IMO more important than having minimum volume. If it's thin enough to fit in the storage pouch on my laptop bag then it's thin enough.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 01:31:28 am
content: You should always remember who your customers are and what you're selling them. This product is intended as an accessory for high-end gaming notebooks and mobile workstations. So you've mainly got gamers, engineers, and media people. What are you selling them? Increased portability.I cannot see any huge demand from the first two groups. PC Gamers usually want to tune system performance. Weight, looks, and practicability are usually of secondary concern. For engineers, there's no ROI for their employers for buying them a fancy PSU for their notebook. It's not like you could seriously advertise that as a job perk or notice any statistically significant decrease in sick leaves due to the back pain caused by carrying their mobile workstation around.This leaves the creative and media people. For example video- and photographers often need a powerful computer on set. As I know from my own experience in that field, sometimes you can only bring the equipment that you can carry yourself or even have no opportunity to store it anywhere and need to carry it around the whole time. Also, for airline flights etc. there's a weight limit. 1 Kg more or less really makes a difference there. People already pay a few hundred $ for tripods lighter by a few hundred grams.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 01:58:39 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amNo one has commented on the production risk element here. I have done some small production runs (50 unit batches) and also worked at a medium-small manufacturing house to compare. The first time I had the hands on experience of performing all of the production myself as opposed to just handing over a design to a production crew surprised the hell out me. I had badly underestimated the labour and last minute gotcha details involved. Sourcing (and testing) incoming parts, final assembly, testing and quality control and shipping all gave me headaches. I had a good idea on what design and PCB fabrication would involve it was the other stuff that bit me. Now you want to handle bare dice and bond them yourself, good for you if you can pull it off. But until you can establish consistent production with reliable metrics and good yield for just this step alone there is no way you can establish a sensible and sustainable selling price for the final unit. I don't know the laptop market well enough to say if there is room for a premium niche product at the top. I suspect the other commenters who say no are correct.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 02:20:59 am
content: Those who build specialized test box using Pelican case always can use a smaller power supply, and willing to pay for one at a higher price than the standard open-frame PS. They always have space constraint. But they shall usually need more than 1 voltage rail, they shall need a combination of +/- 5V, +/- 12V, +/-15V, +24V .

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 02:51:04 am
content: I have real questions on whether the market for this exists at the price point you need. Even if it does, I believe you need more market research to make understand what will make it go. Just being smaller won't be good enough if it is an awkward shape. What shape would be best for usage, and how far towards that shape can your design be adapted? I suspect that a rectangular shape, the thinner the better (allowing rectangle size to expand with loose limits) will be the right answer. This would allow packing other crap (I mean really good stuff) in the same pocket of the travel case.I also think you may be underestimating the problems with either making or farming out the assembly of 1000 or more units. As a PhD student you can't have that much spare time, and the university labs I have been around don't have that kind of spare capacity either.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 02:53:44 am
content: If you are paying $250 plus for a power brick, you would want it to have a long design life.One of the problems when you minimize the size of everything is you end up with capacitors running near their maximum rating - and they are heated by the surrounding electronics. The electrolytic MTBF is a decreasing exponential relationship with temperature. For every 10 degC increase, the MTBF halves. So if you start with 100,000 hour MTBF electrolytics and run them at 75degC ambient with no ripple current, the life has reduced to around 30,000 hours or less then 4 years. Add the effect of ripple current and you can easily end up with less then 2 years.Have you worked out the MTBF for the electrolytics based on both the ripple current at maximum load and the capacitors ambient temperature?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 03:13:07 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 02, 2017, 02:51:04 amIt is true for non-Chinese engineer. But for him is not a big problem, he should have not much problem walking the maze of the many small assembly houses, and sub-assembly houses that specialized in sub-components, sub-modules, cabling, etc in China (ShenZhen). He just need to dive deep into some Chinese forums and Taobao, in a short while he would know more about ShenZhen than Bunnie Hwang. My feel is his cost can be lower than his estimate (not including the cost of his time) .

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 03:25:08 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amYour going to get hit with import taxes when PCBs arrive in China.Is there some reason, besides quality, you cannot have the boards assembled in China or HK ?Dangerous Prototypes would be worth contacting for advice/help.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 03:32:22 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on May 02, 2017, 03:13:07 amI believe he is already quite familiar with this route. According to his original post he isn't planning to go that way. Perhaps because he wants to make the reverse engineering path a little longer.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 03:40:11 am
content: A very specialised niche product, with an already small potential market, so I think that if you try and do it without the US, you are wasting your time.If you kickstart it, it's going to have to include the US market.Especially since it's a mains power supply it is very high on the radar of compliance so you really can't just "risk it", it's going to have to have all the necessary compliance stuff.If you want to give it a go, work out how much compliance is going to cost, add that amortised to the cost, work out how much KS would skim, add that, increase your margin significantly and add that, and chuck on another 10% wiggle room, make a good video and text, slap it up on kickstarter and see if there are enough takers, that's what it's for afterall.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 03:53:18 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amRight there I'm afraid it's sunk.It would be a bad business decision to go into a low volume niche market with 20% gross profit. Let alone one that people consider commodity (PSU's).

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 04:21:44 am
content: Weight has already been mentioned as a factor. When I used to fly a lot, I used to take a set of small scales shopping with me. If the PSU was 100g lighter than the one I already had and didn't look like it would burst into flames the first time I plugged it in, it went in the bag - cost be damned.What does it weigh? There is still a premium market for frequent travelers if you can tap into it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 04:22:22 am
content: The one place I can think of where a product like this might make sense is military, possibly aerospace, these are sometimes cost is no object, space is a huge premium type applications.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 04:46:34 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amStill needs something that makes it visually stand out. I don't suppose it can be VERY THIN? Like maybe just thick enough for the mains 2-pin socket? A laptop charger that was a stylish small thin slab rather than the usual mini-monoliths, could appeal enough to sell decent numbers even at a high price.Another thing I'm sure you're aware of but don't mention - a lot of laptop chargers have 3-pin DC connectors (Barrel outer neg, barrel inner pos, center pin data) where the data pin carries a protocol between the laptop and charger about what power the charger can source. I don't know the protocol details, or even if it's standard between brands. You'll need to know.About certification - seems like half the Chinese manufacturers just make up symbols that look very like the standard ones, plaster a bunch of these on, and sell products regardless. If you (or your Chinese cutout) sell through Aliexpress etc, do you care where they end up?

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 05:02:50 am
content: So, you have a very high density power supply. Can you make an existing power supply, say 75W, much much smaller? Then you'd have a patenting and licensing opportunity.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 06:23:29 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 06:04:08 amI wonder whether that is correct. It does not seem plausible to me, at least if the power supply is a ready-to-plug-in unit. (Maybe bare units, to be installed into a piece of equipment, are exempt? Not sure.)If Dell were to resell your power supply together with a laptop, they probably would have to test the complete system of laptop + power supply. But I don't think that relieves you of making sure that the power supply alone does not exceed EMI limits.Here's a CE declaration for a random Meanwell power supply. They do declare EMI (conducted and radiated emission, EN55032) as an applicable standard:http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=GS15B&pdf=R1MxNUEsQixDLEUtQ0UtREVDLlBERg==&a=3. Would you have a reference for your interpretation?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 07:30:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 06:04:08 amYou do have a grounded design and connection to the laptop ? Otherwise a big red flag here.I have one Asus laptop, two HP workstation laptops and they all require grounding since the lid is metal.When I connect the PSU of the Asus to a non grounded mains outlet I "feel" the lid as if it has Voltage (measured 70V to ground).I have never , ever seen a laptop PSU the last 8 years that did not have a three pole (grounded) entry.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 07:50:13 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 02, 2017, 07:30:28 amApple chargers with the USA or EU plug don't use the ground pin, only when you use the supplied extension cord. I have a Dell adapter with 2 prongs as well, I think it came with an Inspiron 9400.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 07:56:31 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 02, 2017, 07:30:28 amThere are many, many two-prong power supplies available with current laptops; including laptops with metal enclosures. My ASUS laptop, which has an all-metal exterior, comes with this kind of power supply:If the power supply provides proper safety isolation of the low voltage, where is the problem? And even mains-powered equipment can have a metal enclosure and a two-pin power connector, I believe, as long as there is internal dual isolation of the mains voltage.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 08:01:02 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 02, 2017, 07:30:28 amFwiw, I just measured three units. Two (HP, Lenovo) had 1.0Mohm between the mains ground and DC ground. One (Liteon) was direct connected ground to 0V.You'd hope they all had a mains-grounded shield between the primary and secondary in the transformer.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 08:01:56 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 06:27:06 amThe trouble is, they often are. It's a discussion I've had many times with power supply manufacturers.A PSU is sold as meeting EMC, and it does, provided it's tested at full power with a dummy load resistor.The problem is that, to be something I can buy in bulk and re-sell along with my equipment, it needs to meet EMCwith marginunderallload conditions. It can't use nearly 100% of the permitted noise budget itself, and leave absolutely nothing for conducted noise generated by my product.So, if you're selling this PSU as a stand-alone item, then you can test it with a dummy load resistor and CE mark on that basis. But, if you're selling it as a compatible accessory for particular models from Dell, or Lenovo, or whatever HP / Compaq are calling themselves this week, then you need to show that using your PSU with those models doesn't make them non-compliant.That's *much* more expensive and difficult to do, of course.I'm really impressed with your claims of size and efficiency, but I think you've designed the wrong product. A superbly efficient, small, cool running power supply belongs in a server, or some other device where thermal management is a big deal.I don't care how big my laptop brick is. Not even the stupidly big one that came with my last gaming machine.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 08:09:22 am
content: I am not sure what is the target market. If I want to use with some of my application, my concerns with this high price power supply are:1. can I buy a replacement if it blows (***happen all the time for power supply)2. if I can't buy a replacement, can I repair it? All the wire-bonding thingy, make it sounds like they could not be repaired as parts are not easily available,So you are left with people who buy it for novelty

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 08:20:06 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 06:04:08 amDell use the 1-Wire protocol in order to identify the charger's capabilities and need to talk to it before they will draw power.http://www.laptop-junction.com/toast/content/inside-dell-ac-power-adapter-mystery-revealedHP use a third pin with an analogue voltage to signal the charger capability.http://www.techspot.com/community/topics/smart-pin-voltage-to-capacity-correlation-for-laptop-power-supplies.178875/

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 08:37:42 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amIf you can double the output voltage, look at the e-bike market. Many e-bike chargers are obnoxiously large and/or contain fans, so you can't really use them outside. It would be nice if you could make it small enough to mount permanently on the frame.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 08:58:12 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 06:04:08 amPotted = heavy. Also a major PITA in production, and higher scrap rate as any test failures will not be repairable. You also need to invest in equipment for mixing, dispensing and probably vacuuming. Very slow in production.QuoteTooling cost6. CE testing can be done in a professional lab. I'm not buying equipments for that. I will test EFT/ESD/EOS on the PSU. Safety part is self declared, I will hire a lab to do thorough 60950-1 assessment.And how many iterations of test/fix have you allowed for. What if it turns out you can't hit EMC limits without an earth ?QuoteYes you do. You are selling a product, it must meet EMC requirements to be legal.QuoteNo it doesn't - it can be double insulated.QuoteWithout US, your market will probably be too small.Also, stating that you don't sell to US due to approvals will raise customer concerns over safety.QuoteDo you have a budget for full-time employees to run all that? - I think you underestimate the amount of labour involved.QuoteOh dear, you really don't have a clue about production do you?QuoteAnd how much lifetime testing are you planning to do ? Or are you just going to plug numbers into MTBF software and cross your fingers?QuoteIncluding potting compound?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 09:28:44 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 01, 2017, 08:25:05 amWould volume production bring the cost down?If so, license or sell it to a major PSU manufacturer, let them deal with all the 'stuff' and move on to the next project. Maybe negotiate a royalty?If not then you need to work out if it can be manufactured, sold, supported etc. within your available means and not have a detrimental impact on your studies.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 09:41:36 am
content: 2 italian eurocents: the psu is connected to mains so you can't just do the self certification module for CE. AFAIK there are additional tests to be done for safety and they have to be done at a certified facility. (which ones i don't know, as i don't design products connected to mains but there are people you can hire for that)Re: EMC, every product must pass EMC tests. If it is an aftermaket product then the whole pc + power supply combo doesn't have to pass tests but if you want to bundle it for example in a PC build then everything must pass EMC tests.this, at least, in italy. but it would bet it's the same for the rest of the union

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 09:46:10 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 08:40:28 amyou'd be surprised. my dad bought a new one from KTM a couple of months ago. while costing the same as the old e-bike he had, between 2k and 3k, this one has a very sophisticated control loop, bosch electronics. The battery charger though is still pretty big and bulky. A smaller one that you can actually put in the backpack would be appealing

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 09:46:55 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 08:40:28 amI think you're significantly underestimating the price of good e-bikes, at least here in Europe. Theystartat around €2k and go up to about €4k or even higher. Mine is 2k and it's one of the cheapest with a Yamaha drive system. Yes, you can get cheaper ones, but they come with shitty gutless hub motors or Chinese mid-drive systems that aren't properly weather sealed. Cheap ones were popular a while ago, but there were endless streams of complaints about burned out hub motors and shitty batteries.Looking at the bike shed over here, I see mostly Sparta ION (€1.9k), Gazelle (€2k), Batavus Razer / Stream (€2.2k), Gazelle Cytizen Speed (3.2k, speed pedelec).To put it in perspective, Accell Group (owner of Sparta and Batavus) sold 271k e-bikes in 2016 with a gross revenue of €534k, that's about €1.9k per bike.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 10:32:32 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on May 02, 2017, 09:41:36 amSource?I don't think that is correct.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 11:30:57 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 02, 2017, 07:30:28 amBut that doesn't mean the PSU's output is connected to earth! I just checked my Dell PSU and the output isn't connected to earth.

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 11:40:47 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 02, 2017, 11:30:57 amMy Dell PSU has a 1M resistor between earth and the DC ground, so will discharge leakage caused by the L-E-N capacitors.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 01:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 09:33:25 amA $5k pick & place isn't something you can just press "go" and leave running. At the very least you will need to load panels in & out, and refill feeders etc. You also need a good stencil printing and reflow setup. For continuous production you pretty much need someone full time to keep it running.Not to mention a few weeks to refine the process and get things up & running.Setting up an assembly line for a low-volume product like this is pretty much insane - there are subcontractors who are already set up to do it all day long, you need to find one suited to your needs.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 03:24:47 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 02, 2017, 07:30:28 amI have one right here, a Lenovo X250 that is less than 2 years old, it has a 2-prong mains cord.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 04:08:35 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 02, 2017, 08:40:28 amYou may be missing a real market here. I agree with your analysis of Chinese market. Don't know anything about the European market. But here in the US most, if not all of the E-bike market is boutique. Cost is little object. Marketing will be difficult because there are only a very small number of sales at any location. The only applicable trade publications are the bicycle magazines, and they are definitely not focused on E-bikes.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 04:12:09 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 02, 2017, 03:24:47 pmYou are in a different regulatory market. For example, the U.K. requires all mains cords to be grounded. (At least the British standards I can find)

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 05:03:08 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 02, 2017, 04:12:09 pmDefinitely not the case, all mains plugs have three pins but not all cables use them, the unearthed cables are for double insulated devices but must have an insulated earth pin as it's required to unshutter the mains socket, without it you can't insert the plug

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 05:41:15 pm
content: Right. The socket physically requires the earth "pin" to be inserted in order to expose the live and neutral conductors, but may devices use a plastic peg rather than an earth conductor.My entire hi-fi system uses two pin mains cables with no earth anywhere. The cumulative leakage between live and signal ground can give one heck of a buzz.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 05:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 02, 2017, 11:30:57 amAll my laptop PSU's do !Dell you say, good I have some laying around.Just checked two Dell PSU's and they do the same, one has a hard short to earth (LA90PS1) and one has a 1Mohm resistance to earth (FA130PE1)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 07:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 02, 2017, 01:44:07 pmDoing PCB assembly in-house is the very last thing I would do. It is a specialist job better left to people who do that all day long. Besides that it is not just the PnP machine but also the logistics of buying parts and get them delivered in time for a reasonable price.

author: Kevman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 07:50:20 pm
content: I can see those that buy those desktop replacement machines buying one to avoid having 2 heavy power adapters. But a quick google says that they may be as much as 330Weachso they'd still need two.As it is, it looks like you just have a higher power version of the 75W Zolt? Perhaps looking into their sales figures may help gauge interest?There's also one called the "finsix DART" that was kickstarted in 2014 and released recently. I hadn't heard of before looking the Zolt just now.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2017, 11:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on May 02, 2017, 05:03:08 pmServes me right for thinking my three plug adapter were representative of anything ...

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 12:26:31 am
content: Refine the prototype. Then sell it under license along with your accomplishments as a power-engineering expert/consultant to Dell or other similar manufacturer - for use in premium business laptops and under their badge? That would help solve the distribution and marketing issue, and perhaps they could assist with certification, as well as advise on how to align the product with their own internal QC processes. You might risk them stealing the design outright if they judge it really is commercially viable. But perhaps that could be mitigated with patents, trademarks, and your expert credentials in the power-systems space.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 12:35:35 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 03, 2017, 12:04:18 amAssuming your figures aren't mistaken (they are amazing), I think your design must be terrific.Though I can't give you any useful answer to the threads question 'Should I market this thing, and how?'I wanted to say I am sure there is a market for this, so push through! The electric bike idea sounds good.One other thing, was this in some way inspired or bought about by the results of thehttps://littleboxchallenge.com/?

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:01:24 am
content: Have you built a unit yet? Would be interesting to see how simulation compares to real life.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:32:17 am
content: I wanna see a 4 multimeter setup

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 11:42:34 am
content: The extreme OC laptop guys are more interested in this thingy:http://www.anandtech.com/show/11118/eurocom-launches-780-w-external-psu-for-highend-laptops-sff-and-industrial-pcs240Watts is indeed a limitation, a single OC'ed 1070 will need more than 240Watts when the unlocked VBIOS become more easilly available, DTR's from Clevo and the MSI barebone chassis with desktop socketed CPU's and with one 1080 or SLI 1080's will need more than 240 Watts.I understand the idea behind a smaller PSU, and it would/will be usefull for those carrying slim laptops, for the big(aka crazy) ones, 240Watts doesn't cut it..

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 12:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: senso on May 03, 2017, 11:42:34 amMy goodness... What kind of power plug (and internal power distribution) do the corresponding notebooks have? Does the power supply come with straps or bolts to tie it down, so its fans don't blow it straight off you desk?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 12:32:27 pm
content: Heck with the power plug, how do you get 240+ watts out of a laptop size case? There's only so much space for vent holes and the fan can only be so big. Nice achievement I suppose, but at this point a mini-ITX case will be easier to thermally manage and no more difficult to carry around.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 01:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: senso on May 03, 2017, 11:42:34 am780W over 19,5V is 40 AmpsDid you see that 4 pole connector it has, 20Amps per contact, better get an extra fire insurance

author: ChristopherN
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 01:23:50 pm
content: I would buy such a supply at $250 to $300 if it features 4 USB-C ports. I'm using Apple and other USB-C gear and it seems like I'm getting more of that stuff in the future.This could also be a very nice thing for offices that use Apple gear, many creative people use desks for 2-4 people and they all use Apple gear. Power outlets are always rare, and the price would be right since a single Apple supply is around 70€ (plus 30€ for the USB-C Cable). It has to look good for this application but can be bigger, so you could maybe do this by adding a separate cover with 4 USB-C ports.USB-C seems to take off in some applications, so I guess there could be more use cases in the future. Airport lounges and Starbucks shops for example.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 02:52:13 pm
content: Told you, that GaAs and SIC is too expensive... And not counting in production costs is a huge huge mistake, please go back, and calculate the entire cost, include scrap, testing, manual labor and tooling cost, especially for plastic parts. You need an injection mold for a ~10cm part? 5000 dollars.About marketing, and other stuff: Nobody likes power plug adapters. I would never buy a power brick, which has a flimsy cabling, which will be the first part to break, coming from a third party manufacturer. What you can target is USB type C powered laptops. Just have a USB type C output, bring your own cable, and support type C power delivery.

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 08:03:10 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 03, 2017, 02:52:13 pmBoth cords are already detachable (and therefore replaceable).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 08:32:45 am
content: Quote from: PointyOintment on May 04, 2017, 08:03:10 amSure. Show me a shop which sells whatever to Thinkpad X220 power input cable.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 08:48:42 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 03, 2017, 05:33:11 amI'm surprised nobody else has jumped on this yet.You're a long way from being ready to consider production. *Much* further than I think you realise.It's great to have an idea of how a product might work, and even better to build one and be able to demonstrate it - but that's just the beginning of the development process.Beyond that, there's still a ton of work to do. A great deal of functional testing, design for manufacture, mechanical design and packaging, enclosure design, regulatory approvals, finding a manufacturer, securing a supply of components (with sensible lead time, pricing and MOQ), shipping and logistics. That's without any commercial considerations.None of these things individually are beyond you, I'm sure, but I'd urge you to treat the project as a learning exercise, and not to get too excited by the prospect of making any money out of it.I've done several of these types of project over the course of my career so far. I've designed things that interest me, up to the point of having a working prototype that could - with the involvement of outside expertise - be turned into commercial products and sold.I've never actually sold them, though - but I've taken parts of the designs and used them elsewhere. They've taught me new and useful skills, and they've been really good adverts to show prospective customers the kinds of things I can do (which is difficult when your other work is generally kept confidential).

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 09:02:57 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 03, 2017, 05:33:11 amSo how do you know that it is 96% efficiency? You do know that the numbers in the datasheets of power supply ICs are only true with better than perfect parts and layout, and only on full moon?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 11:32:40 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 04, 2017, 08:48:42 amI think everyone is still doing this:@Blueskull: make a prototype first and don't try to make the first version ultra compact because that will make measurements difficult. Simulations and ideas only go so far.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 12:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: FrankBuss on May 04, 2017, 09:02:57 amOr Thermally viable?or EMC Certifiable?or stable?or will even work.?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 01:22:20 pm
content: I'd expect a design that only wastes 4% of the input power as heat should be pretty good from a thermal point of view, since there's just not that much heat being generated. Probably awful from an EMC perspective, though, given that it'll need to switch very hard and very fast (edge rate, not kHz) to get the efficiency up.I'm really interested to know how that efficiency could possibly be achieved, though. Aren't most supplies of this type more like 85% efficient? That's a really, really major improvement in efficiency over currently available commercial product, so the design is either a) radically better in some fundamental way, or b) hopelessly optimistic.Place your bets. I'd really like to hope it's (a).

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 02:03:39 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 04, 2017, 01:22:20 pmNo they are commercially available for EU PSU's check out the term "80 plus titanium"The catch is that this efficiency is only available for a certain load condition, so you should tweak the supply to the load.There is no way you can build a PSU that has 96% eff. over the entire range of possible loads.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 02:06:50 pm
content: XP Power makes some supplies that are around 95% efficient. They do come at a price though.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 02:25:54 pm
content: Cool, I've actually learned something useful from the internet!(I wonder what got pushed out of the back of my brain to make room? No doubt I'll find out in time...)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 03:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 04, 2017, 01:22:20 pmAnd the resistive losses in the EMC filter then eat into your efficiency.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 01:35:19 am
content: If you do not have transformers designed and tested, you do not have much. In designing small high efficiency designs, it is not uncommon to have many attempts at getting the transformer right, and it is usual to get results much poorer then expected. There is often signifigant losses in the transformer, and there is often more leakage inductance then expected. If you have to add snubbers to cope with the leakage inductance, you can easily find yourself below the 90% or even 80% efficiency level in spite of the great LTSpice numbers. Unless you design can actually somehow reabsorb and use the energy in the leakage inductance, it is energy that has to go somewhere.The hardest part of switching supply design is the transformer design. You have variables of copper shape and cross section, wire insulation, core material, core gap, shape, winding arrangement, insulation gap between layers, former design and so on. If this is your first attempt, it will be much harder then you expect. High performance transformers are very imperfect devices and their design is a real art that can take years to master.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 03:12:12 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 05, 2017, 02:13:15 amLooks like you are using two transformers to get the 240W. It is an impressive transformer. You cannot make transformers yourself like that using off-the-shelf parts. The negative is you will be paying something like $15 for transformers from a single supplier and you will be competing against companies paying $2 for their single transformer.It is a transformer that normally has 48V between primary and secondary, and you have to allow for something like 400V. I am assuming your supply can run off 240V mains. If it doesn't, I cannot see much of a market as a laptop supply. You will actually want to pull one of these transformers apart to see what the actual insulation between the windings consists of. It might be only a layer of enamel coating on the coils. I would be nervous about that for use with the mains.The fact you do not care about leakage inductance is impressive. I am not going to ask you to reveal your design, so I will leave that to you. I assume you have added the extra leakage inductances into your LTSpice simulations.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 08:48:31 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 05, 2017, 12:12:38 amAnd have mininmal credibility until you actually build & test it.