Plastic money, do you like it - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 03:46:10 pm
content: Plastic bank notes, a horrible invention. Difficult to carry in pockets more than 2-3 bills at time, slippery to handle, difficult to fold and unfold putting in and out of wallet, easy to damage, terribly looking after changing several hands. But the worse is that warm feeling of money is lost. Disgusting piece of shit. IMHO.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 03:47:28 pm
content: Cotton/Denim dollars for the win!

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 04:14:59 pm
content: I can offer a welcoming home for any money you have a dislike for

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 04:46:25 pm
content: We just got new 10 Euro notes and recently got new 5 Euro notes. They are now covered with a special lacquer to prolong their lifetime. They have a bit of a feel of plastic now.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 05:10:37 pm
content: You will get 5 Euro coins soon, as they last longer.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 05:26:13 pm
content: We've had them for two decades.They were invented in Australia. Canada and 28 other countries use the same polymer substrate as we do.They're fine, you'll get used to them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 06:00:26 pm
content: I'm amazed people still use cash. I don't carry any cash money around; only a debit card which works everywhere.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 06:20:10 pm
content: Wait till your bank has one of those days when a patch or an upgrade goes tits up. RBS ring a bell? Can you do things with the debit card if the bank is offline for a month while they try to sort out the SNAFU made by the outsourced untrained ( but the beancounters got paid a handsome bonus) staff who read the script wrong, and messed up again trying to fix it ( who would guess the backups were not going to work........).Locally here 2 major bank groups had a day of downtime each about a month apart. I never noticed, even though I have accounts at both of them, and they went down at month end in each case. A lot of people were majorly inconvenienced, because they did not have cash to pay with.

author: atferrari
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 06:47:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 26, 2014, 06:00:26 pmLike a gas station (or a bar for the case) in the middle of nowhere during a blackout in that area.Picture a place with some 200 Km to the next point where you could find a human being.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 07:11:21 pm
content: During a blackout the gas station won't work either so that is not a problem.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 08:45:10 pm
content: Coins larger than two Euro have been issued to mark special events but at the moment there are no plans to issue five Euro coins into general circulation. I have an inside source for this information.As for plastic bank notes the last time I saw one was in the 1980s when I visited the Isle of Man. I remember keeping one for the novelty value but I have not seen it for years. Given the cost of printing new bank notes I can see the attraction of a long life plastic version but I still appreciate gravure printing on good quality rag paper.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 08:46:25 pm
content: Plastic money is great.At least Australian ones, haven't tried any other.No idea how it can be called "fragile", to the contrary it felt solid and untearing.With Euros i am a little nervous handling large bill, because they can tear rather easily.Also waterproof quality is a really good idea, especially after you wash your paper paycheck in a washing machine and have the cashiers tell you your money is lit up like a fake note.And, from what i heard, it's not exactly easy to forge.Downside is - the notes stick together in a rather unobvious way, you have to learn to always check for it, or you might end up paying twice the amount.Quote from: nctnico on September 26, 2014, 06:00:26 pmI guess it's regional.There are still many, many places where you can't pay with a card, but cash is always an option.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 08:58:02 pm
content: Canada started rolling out these new polymer bills 1-2 years ago, so I guess the OP is getting his transition blues. I land travel a lot to neighbors Canada and Mexico, who use polymer notes, and it was easy to get used to them coming from paper note USA:Brand new bills tend to stick to each other, seems worse in less humid or warm climates like Canada. When I count them I crumple them in my fist between each thumbing of a bill during the count. The creases keep the bills from sticking.They are great for water sports so one needn't leave your wallet off your person to potentially get stolen. US bills get limp and take a while to dry but polymer bills you can just wipe dry. I use a stainless money clip to hold them. After being wet, once dried, the bills stick much much less, particularly when exposed to salt water, the thin film of grime gives them some texture to stop the sticking. They also dry fast, just take the money clip and bang it on a towel, and a wad will be mostly dry.Wet fingers make grasping polymer money easier.Accidentally laundering them has the same effect. Just don't put them in the drier, then do melt or deform.They are springy, so a wad of them resists being folded and creased. I use a money clip so I haven't had that issue, and once folded for a while they eventually hold their fold.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 08:59:05 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on September 26, 2014, 08:46:25 pmespecially because of the width of the banknotes - which is increasing with value. fortunately they pulled back the 200 and 500 notes from normal use. but the 100 euro note is still too wide and gets damaged on the edges easily.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 09:15:16 pm
content: I imagine they don't retain cocaine as well as the paper ones, which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_currencyQuote

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 09:25:45 pm
content: Just don't leave your cash on the dashboard on a hot day or the notes will melt together!I kid, because regardless of the material it will cause a broken windshield and I bet they are some special polymer that has a higher melting point and is more flexible, which means that its probably pretty toxic because they need long chains that your mitochondria will try to process to create protein chains.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 10:16:46 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on September 26, 2014, 08:59:05 pmI have never been a fan of the Euro bills. They are just pale and feel crappy compared to the (beautyfull!) paper money we used to have in the NL.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 11:01:52 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on September 26, 2014, 09:25:45 pmApparently a car dashboard has not been enough but there are other stories of accidents melting them:http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/17/is-canadas-plastic-money-actually-melting/

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 11:26:27 pm
content: In nz we use eftpos for everything, even 50c items. So most people dont even carry much cash if any at all. Maybe a 20 for emergency use.Our notes went to plastic many years back. I really cant say ive found any bad issues with plastic money. Its better than paper in everyway imho

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 01:06:12 am
content: Quote from: saturation on September 26, 2014, 08:58:02 pmThe bills sticking together is essentially my only gripe. Last week a grocery check-out lady observed me doing my now habitual thumb and forefingerrub-rubon each bill and laughed. She said: " they are now putting some coating on them so they don't stick so much". I don't know if that's true or the bills are just getting dirty and greasy with use.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 01:47:18 am
content: Quote from: Artlav on September 26, 2014, 08:46:25 pmA few years ago I visited Titanic exhibition here in Canada where bunch of artifacts retrieved from the seabed crash site were on the display. Among other things there were several paper banknotes there and they looked just fine. Guess we lost that printing technology...

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 02:25:26 am
content: Australian plastic notes... we make them here. They are much more difficult to copy than the primitive US notes. Plus they are more user friendly for blind people.Please don't Google "wikileaks supreme court order bank notes" and don't read the PDF on the third entry down.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 03:42:41 am
content: Quote from: cimmo on September 26, 2014, 05:26:13 pmAnd you'll find the durability is excellent in practical usage.And of course the security is orders of magnitude ahead of that backwards US stuff.When I'm in the US I get sick of getting stares like I'm a criminal if I pay with a $50 note, refuse to take them because they might be counterfeit, or have the call the manager over to approve it. Many tellers even thoroughly inspect $20 notes while you have to wait there, it's ridiculous.Hand over a $100 polymer note in Oz and no one bats an eyelid.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 03:50:13 am
content: Interestingly the federal reserve has a facility just around the corner from my lab that does something super-secret to do with the note printing.https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/6+Elizabeth+Macarthur+Dr,+Bella+Vista+NSW+2153/@-33.7424845,150.9512069,3a,75y,131.83h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s7DUeBVcN3ex8bKkFxf7LWA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x6b1298aa4f392a43:0xd1d5f89e58c8e9b7There is a part of the street view outside their front gate mysteriously missing...No signs, just electrified fences, bared wire, security cameras and guards.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 05:41:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2014, 03:42:41 amI have never had a problem with $50s or $100s. Very rarely they will check them with a pen for detecting starch. Maybe it is your accent.If you want some real fun, try using US $2 bills:http://yro.slashdot.org/story/05/04/08/2213237/best-buy-has-man-arrested-for-using-2-bills

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 05:49:33 am
content: Plastic coated notes last a lot longer than rag paper, which can have a life of months for some notes.Interesting fact is the biggest counterfeiter of US notes had the right paper, the right inks and even the right presses, all supplied from the US Treasury legitimately to them. Then all they had to forge was the easiest part for forgery, the printing plates, which is a lot easier than making the paper and ink. They even had the right numbering dies. Only way to tell them apart was that you got duplicates of notes already destroyed and not yet reissued in a series.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 05:56:55 am
content: I haven't had any luck pulling this off with a plastic note.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 11:44:18 am
content: I've never used plastic notes, but I would appreciate them if they last a long time.I find brand new notes look really nice, and they store really well in the envelopes where I keep them. But when I go to the bank, I often withdraw my money in £5 notes, and they usually give me the tattiest ones possible.Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2014, 03:42:41 amLots of shops here say they won't accept £50s or £100s due to forgeries, but I am surprised by this. These notes seem quite rare (I have never seen one), so I would be surprised if forgeries were common. I wouldn't be surprised though if shops refuse them because they can't give change. It would be awkward if someone went to the bakery to buy a pasty for £1.20, paid with a £100 note, and the cashier had to find £98.80 in change.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 11:55:09 am
content: Quote from: Psi on September 26, 2014, 11:26:27 pmHere we have very quickly converted to NFC "Tap'n'go" for transactions under $100. Over $100 requires a PIN. Although at some self serve checkouts it ca be quicker to whack a note in (which it accepts at any time) than go through the menu to complete the transaction and enter the NFC Tap'n'go screen.Only very rarely in oz does someone not take EFTPOS.Heck, even I used PayPal Here at my trade show stand!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 12:02:26 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 05:41:10 amI've always wanted to pay with one of my $200 gold coins (legal tender)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 12:07:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2014, 03:42:41 amThe euro bills are not much better. Over here all the euro bills get scanned with a scanner before the shop accepts them. That is quicker than having the manager check each bill.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 12:21:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 28, 2014, 12:07:38 pmWow. Not even our local banks tellers have machines to check bills.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 12:34:05 pm
content: Here they forge the older coins, I have a few fake coins, R5 and even R2 coins, worth about 50c and 20c respectively. You also get a lot of fake notes, and a lot of dye stained ones, even from a bank which is supposed to remove them from circulation.

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 12:47:40 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on September 27, 2014, 01:06:12 amNah, we have sorted this problem out pretty easily here.. We have just 1 bill in our wallets.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 01:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2014, 12:21:54 pmIt is the same technique they use in vending machines that accept notes. UV lamps, test pens etc. alone all turned out to be not very effective. The non-fake machines test multiple features at once and also have a build-in counter / summer. I sometimes suspect they use the machines not primarily for identifying fakes, but because the tellers aren't good at doing the math.Funny enough, many of those little machines are made in China. You get them for a price of 50 Euro. With the introduction of new 10 Euro notes just days ago many of the machines from China will provide false-positives and no chance of a firmware update. Just like many of them failed when we got new 5 Euro notes earlier in the year.However, a good bunch of the cheap machines did not choke on the new 5 Euro and will probably also not on the new 10 Euro. Not because they magically got new firmware or automatically adapt, but because they are simply fake. The machines, not the notes.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 01:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2014, 11:55:09 amSeen such things around here as well.How are they secured?What prevents someone who stole your card from using this?What prevents someone from "pinging" your card while in a crowd, then using that copy to pay in your name, or getting your personal data?The whole thing reeks of security breaches.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 01:59:19 pm
content: Yes, I too would like to know if anyone can explain this.I cannot find how NFC transactions are secured for low cost purchases, its basically e-cash. Anyone owning the dongle can use it, so I do not use NFC or any RFID style payment technology in the USA as of now.In the USA even low-school magnetic swipe no longer requires a signature or PIN for transactions <= $50.The new issue USA passports have RFID tags in them but to prevent accidentally reading they ship with a reading shield [ basically a conductive envelope] and are recommended to be left in the shield until use. USA passport covers are its shield.To protect my cards I have all transactions also sent via email to me in real time, so I know what has transpired in those accounts in case someone somewhere pilfers my number. I use a ferrous metal money clip, so it shields my other cards from scanners or pingers.For those interested, there are several NFC reader apps for Android Nexus, to see what it can read off your NFC technology.Quote from: Artlav on September 28, 2014, 01:37:42 pm

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 05:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on September 28, 2014, 01:37:42 pmNothing but if you use your card every day you will realize within 24 hours you lost it and you have to call your bank and let them know so they can block it.Until it is blocked it can be used for a few transactions but there is a limit for each transaction and there is a total limit or a limit for a day and there is also so called velocity check which monitors how often the card was used in a period of time and for what amount. Call your bank and ask them to explain the limits on your card, in case you did not bother reading the User Agreement at the time you got the card.If you report your card stolen and someone used it, the bank will look into it and chances are they will not charge you for those transactions.Quote from: Artlav on September 28, 2014, 01:37:42 pmThis is an urban legend. While some of data can be read with a proximity reader (requires getting very close to your wallet), it cannot be replayed and/or used to perform a transaction. Each transaction is unique and involves a random component shared between the card and the terminal and encryption. Because of randomness you cannot replay a transaction and you cannot make a new transaction because you do not have the encryption key.There is no personal data on contactless payment cards.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 05:36:36 pm
content: Several people posted saying they do not use cash. Well, I do not either, mostly. However many private grocery stores do not accept cards if you want to buy for less than $10, so you have to pay cash. Also have to give money to wife here and there and to kids for their pocket expenses and to send them buy groceries.So even to safely carry the god damn plastic money from the ATM to my house is a problem, need to put them in a separate pocket so they do not stick to other things , car keys, cell phone, etc, so when I get something from the pocket, money can quietly drop on the ground and I will never notice.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 05:39:22 pm
content: There is a hack where the limit is bypassed for non local currency transactions, and the offline transaction can be done with the merchant info added later and then done with a rogue merchant, or a hijacked merchant account, where the legit merchant who has had the account compromised has the whole batch of transactions done fast, and the money transferred out immediately to a laundering ring. Boom, your card was done yesterday, and tomorrow there is nothing left in all accounts.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 08:24:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2014, 12:21:54 pmBill scanners look for the EURion constellation. Most modern currency (US included) has a pattern that is distinct that matches a pattern called the EURion constellation. Most color copying machines also look for this pattern and will refuse to copy money.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellationUS currency is based on linen fiber but has many of the same embedded features as plastic money (except for the 1 dollar bill which has essentially been unchanged for 40-ish years). There are integrated color shifting inks, UV illuminated inks, a plastic UV illuminated strip with the value of the money embedded in the money, microprinting, watermarking, and of course the EURion constellation.Most cashiers have a marker pen that turns dark on paper money but stays yellow on actual money. Handheld bill scanners are usually just UV lights that make the security features glow.Though the #1 security feature of the US dollar is its feel. There's nothing out there that you can easily counterfeit that has the feel. In fact you can sometimes feel the difference in denominations because the impressions left in the bill from the intaglio printing process.Many of these security features were added to prevent "note raising" where you take a small denomination note, soak it in a bleach solution and then reprint over with a new value.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2014, 08:30:32 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2014, 12:02:26 pmGold coins as legal tender have lead to some interesting court cases involving our IRS:Kahre hadn’t committed a crime. He had upset the Internal Revenue Service by paying his workers based on the face value of gold and silver coins, versus the market value in the Federal Reserve system (the value of the coins in U.S. paper dollars).http://www.rapidtrends.com/robert-kahre-vs-the-irs-and-doj/Transacting in Gold Can Shaft The IRShttp://www.forbes.com/sites/briandomitrovic/2014/09/08/transacting-in-gold-can-shaft-the-irs/

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 02:41:26 am
content: As 'noted' the Australian plastic notes are very robust, with the only minor issue of sticking together when you get a number of new ones at the same time (of the same value usually).And there was that one time I forgot that $10 I left in my pants pocket which survived the wash no problem only to be shrunk to approximately 2/3 its original size after ironing(just like heatshrink). Bank replaced it no problems.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 03:09:48 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 28, 2014, 05:39:22 pmCan you pls post a link? Sounds an academic exersize. Articles pop up from time to time claiming "hacking" but at a closer look being false claims or unpractical. There is limits on the account, you cannot empty it. Even if true, this would be a subset of a subset of a subset of a card type and a subset of the bad guys crowd. Depending on the issuer, the card may not allow international transaction, the card may not allow offline transactions. Bad guys want easy money, Who would be willing to put efforts in stealing your card and wait for all of the planets aligned as you described. For what, for a $100 reward ? Noone will bother.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 03:19:45 am
content: Quote from: Artlav on September 28, 2014, 01:37:42 pmIf you have more than 1 card in your wallet, they *fight* with each other. My bus pass, my bank card and my work pass all live in the same wallet, and all need to be removed separately to read them.There's a lot of FUD out there, but I for one like NFC.Only pain in the ass is getting cash to pay for kids after school activities!

author: randsl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 05:14:43 am
content: Hay guys,Don't blame on plastic notes.Australia is earning a lot of money by selling these stuff to other countries.cheers,

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 06:12:58 am
content: And money laundering leads to a shrinking economy

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 08:01:56 am
content: In the UK they reckon that 1 in 3 one pound coins is fake and the bigger the coin value the more tempting it is going to be to forge them. I have found a few fake coins, I now just spend them as normal, if you handed in all the fake ones it would cost far too much.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 08:13:27 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on September 29, 2014, 08:01:56 amWhen I was a teen in Spain, I used to get change from my Dad that worked abroad and he had some British coins that where a bit larger than the 25 pesetas coin. I filed them up to make them the same size so I could use them on vending machines.Yup, not too proud of stealing my Dad's pocket change and defacing the coins to commit fraud and probably at a lost of the exchange rate. My only alibi is that I was a stupid teenager and I didn't know better

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 09:17:55 am
content: To euro plastic type (5, 10 euros) doesn't feel so plasticy like Australian moneys, I like it.Alexander.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 07:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on September 29, 2014, 03:09:48 amknowhow.pushcoin.com/smartcard-chip-pin-emv-vulnerabilities/

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 12:52:35 pm
content: Quote from: randsl on September 29, 2014, 05:14:43 amYeah and how much of it was made paying bribes. The corruption continues...http://www.independentaustralia.net/life/life-display/suppression-order-on-wikileaks-betrays-democracy-and-freedom,6720.One American leader with substance was the great Jimmy Carter who created this law...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act. Unfortunately, today decent American businesses miss out on business despite often having a superior product.