Best replacement for AMD/Xilinx CPLDs XC9500 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CosteC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 02:55:15 pm
content: Hello guysWhat would you recommend as replacement for AMD/Xilinx XC9500 series? I got some small projects on XC9536XL-10 I need to redesign. I would like to have:3.3 V IO if possible.JTAG = boundary scan capabilityAbility to program it via JTAG, with documented protocolChance to survive on market for next 10 years would be nicetwo or less voltages requiredWhat are options? What are your experiences?P.S.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/no-more-xilinx-cplds-and-spartan-3s/msg5284111/#msg5284111with EoL note.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 04:31:11 pm
content: The small FPGAs from Gowin are what I'm using for exactly this purpose.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 05:32:45 pm
content: ATF1504ATF1508Mostly for the 3.3v and 5v i/o voltages compatibility44-leadTQFP44-leadJ-lead84-leadJ-lead100-leadTQFPButwe did a small carrier board for them to mimic some Xilinx xc9572xl plcc84 pins we had, even the programming pins .... worked pretty finethe programmer from Kanda is not too expensive, and software is included or downloadable, and you can get it from microchip toohttps://www.kanda.com/CPLD-Programmers.175.html

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 08:17:26 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on January 19, 2024, 05:32:45 pmFWIR, the FT2232 / FT2232H can be used to program ATF15xx series too.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2024, 05:49:17 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on January 19, 2024, 08:17:26 pmSome info herehttps://www.hackup.net/2020/01/erasing-and-programming-the-atf1504-cpld/Note the user comments , about the caps for the MAX662A

author: KrudyZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2024, 07:03:26 pm
content: CosteC,you said "small projects", so why wouldn't you just buy existing stock.DigiKey for one still shows tens of thousands of that part in stock.For new designs, I would likely go with Lattice, but the Chinese vendors are gaining traction for smaller programmable logic as others mentioned.Hard to say who's going to be around in five or ten years.

author: CosteC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2024, 09:06:36 am
content: Thank you guysI think Microchip seems sensible solution for future.Buying stock is obvious solution, yet it would be nice to be able to have CPLDs is future designs. I consider CPLDs great solution in many cases, not replaceable by 8 or 32 bit microcontrollers. FPGA is just too complex and expensive in many cases.Any practical tips for ex-ATMEL ATF15 family, from experienced user?

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2024, 11:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: CosteC on January 21, 2024, 09:06:36 amGrab WinCUPL and see how your code ports to that ?The 3v3 ATF150x'V' series have full push pull outputs, whilst the 5V variants have NMOS outputs giving TTL high.The 'L' suffix parts have wake up operation, so they are slightly slower, but have low static power.The ATF150xBE/RE are newer parts using a 1.8V core/process, so they have speeds close to coolrunners.Microchip still show them as available, tho not stocked, but maybe they will schedule more production with others exiting ?WinCUPL has a functional simulator, and it is quite quick to download and run files in the actual circuit.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2024, 09:39:45 pm
content: If you already have designs written in Verilog or VHDL then consider downloading Altera Quartus 13 instead of trying to convert it to CUPL. You should be able to convert the Xilinx project to a Quartus project relatively easily, compile, and then run the output through a tool called pof2jed to produce a file for programming the Atmel parts.CUPL has it's uses but it is very primitive. I only use it for GALs these days because Quartus does a much better job and Verilog/VHDL is much more portable.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2024, 09:44:48 pm
content: Lattice MachXO2/3iCE40

author: CosteC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2024, 05:29:18 pm
content: Which you consider more stable/less probable to go obsolete?Which native software is nicer to use?LATTICE vs Microchip/Atmel - this decision is not simple. Any tips?

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 03:00:44 am
content: Quote from: CosteC on January 24, 2024, 05:29:18 pmIt also depends on Package, voltage and speed needs.eg Atmel do not have 48 pin offerings, with separate JTAG pins.Lattice show 5V parts as being EOL.Lattice do have 256 macrocell CPLD and above, whilst Atmel top out at 128 Macrocells.Atmel do have smaller SPLDs still active, ATF16V8/22V10 and ATF750L (need external ZIF programmers)If you are in the XC9536XL-10 area, above 128 Macrocells may not matter to you.I'd suggest download both tool chains, and port a simple design you have already.

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 06:15:48 am
content: Quote from: CosteC on January 21, 2024, 09:06:36 am1. Use Quartus 13 for your design.2. Convert output to JED format using POF2JED3a. Use ATMISP to program the chip. It supports multiple cables, like USB cable from Atmel or Altera Byteblaster (if you have computer with LPT port).3b. Another option, if you have Altera USB blaster (clones are sold everywhere for few bucks), use ATMISP to convert JED to SVF, then Altera SVF to JAM converter (s2j_23.exe) to convert it to JAM, then Quartus command line tool quartus_jli.exe to program the chip.I use Altera Byteblaster with LPT port. If you don't have one, it's very easy to DIY, schematics available on the net.ATF15 are actually more advanced than compatible Altera CPLD, but to use those extra features you need Prochip Designer from Microchip (can request 1 month free trial. It doesn't need any activation or internet and you can run in VM for 1 month. After this ...) But I could not make Prochip Designer to work correctly with timing constraints. See my other threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/cpldfpga-design-flow/

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2024, 10:39:10 pm
content: Now (ok, soon) we can get an entire microcontroller bundled with a CPLD:https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/PIC16F13145I wonder if VHDL can be used instead of another graphic input tool...

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2024, 01:02:38 am
content: Quote from: dmendesf on January 29, 2024, 10:39:10 pmInteresting, MCUs have had config logic for a while, this looks to increase that slightly, to 4 groups of 8 cells, with modest speeds.The fanin is well below a CPLD or even SPLD, so there are limits to what you could do here.Each group could manage something like a 4-bit binary counter ?

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2024, 01:31:23 am
content: Not really sure about the true capabilities of this PIC. Documentation is very lacking. It has two types of configurable logic: CLCs and CLBs.

author: colorado.rob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2024, 06:31:09 pm
content: Microchip produce AVR MCUs with CCLs (configurable custom logic). And Cypress has had PSoCs for a while.https://www.microchip.com/en-us/products/microcontrollers-and-microprocessors/8-bit-mcus/core-independent-and-analog-peripherals/system-flexibility/custom-logichttps://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/microcontroller/32-bit-psoc-arm-cortex-microcontroller/32-bit-psoc-5-lp-arm-cortex-m3/The CCLs on the AVRs are rather limited in what they can do.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2024, 08:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: CosteC on January 24, 2024, 05:29:18 pmEIther is fine. I would favor Lattice. For Microchip, you need to figure out which parts exactly you are considering. Microchip has bought companies over the years. I don't think they have any CPLD or FPGA of their "own" so far (if you exclude the MCUs with embedded logic blocks), they have Atmel CPLDs (I don't know how many of them are still current) and Microsemi FPGAs. All I can say is that I found Libero (software environment for Microsemi FPGAs) relatively horrific compared to Lattice tools, with which I've never had any problem. As to availability, there shouldn't be much of a difference.For the tools themselves, you may want to install them and figure out which you are more comfortable with.Also, when you said "3.3V IOs if possible", did you mean you need 3.3V IOs only, or also possibly 5V? In the latter case, that will restrict your options drastically these days, and Lattice won't be an answer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2024, 08:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: CosteC on January 24, 2024, 05:29:18 pmChoose neither. Really take a look at Gowin. Nice tools, good documentation, lots of cheap boards, chips are easy to integrate in your design and simple to program from a microcontroller. Contrary to Microchip and Lattice's offerings, the Gowin parts are modern designs.

author: dolbeau
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2024, 09:47:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 31, 2024, 08:29:07 pmThe 'modern' part mihgt be the problem... does Gowin make parts with 5V[-tolerant] I/O? (such as 3V3 TTL-compatible) It was a big selling point of the XC9500. If you don't need 5V[-tolerant] I/O, they're a lot easier to replace.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2024, 10:11:55 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 31, 2024, 08:29:07 pmLattice do provide source code to program their parts from an MCU over JTAG - source can be from a file or CONST array

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2024, 10:23:56 am
content: Quote from: dolbeau on February 01, 2024, 09:47:12 am5V tolerance doesn't bring you 5V compliance. With the XC9500 you'll need level shifters to interface with 5V logic because the 3.3V output levels are not suitable to produce valid 5V CMOS logic levels. Been there, done that.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 01, 2024, 10:11:55 amFor Gowin devices you don't need that. Configuring their FPGAs over SPI is as simple as communicating with an SPI ADC or DAC.

author: client
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2024, 04:18:30 pm
content: agm407vet6/zet6,which integrated an stm32F407 and a FPGA on one chip, and the FPGA can be developed by Quartus, that means it is compatible with Altera's products.Its tol price is below $2 in China, and you can buy it fromwww.taobao.comalso,you can access their offical websitehttp://www.agm-micro.com/products.aspx?lang=&id=67&p=38

author: ResistorsAreFutile
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 01, 2024, 05:45:29 pm
content: That's a very interesting product family, other than not being 5v tolerant it ticks a heck of a lot of boxes for my uses. But until AGM have the parts and a dev board available from English-language distributors I'm going to pass.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2024, 05:15:04 am
content: Quote from: ResistorsAreFutile on February 01, 2024, 05:45:29 pmYes ...Too bad you can't get the devel boards on Ali..Saw them for around 8...14 CNYhttp://www.tcx-micro.com/

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2024, 06:39:17 am
content: I can not even download their fpga conversion software (Supra) from f..king baidu

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2024, 06:41:34 am
content: Quote from: bingo600 on February 02, 2024, 05:15:04 amAre you sure? Where?They have dev boards on taobao but nowhere near this price.

author: dolbeau
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2024, 10:23:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 01, 2024, 10:23:56 am5V CMOS no, but 5V TTL yes. And 5V TTL is quite common, in vintage hardware for instance. XC5900XL could do without level shifters in a lot of 5V TTL contexts.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2024, 08:36:31 am
content: My choice would be based on what tools I am already current and comfortable with.... then see if I can use their devices.Case... ATM I am looking for a small cell count FPGA to use as a frontpanel display interface. the main unit will talk up two wires to the display.... I need an small FPGA with >= 20 IOonly a 320x240 graphics display but enough that a microcontroller will choke....I want to boot the fpga up the same lines I will talk to the display with, IE no software to keep synced with the main board.anyway....which means I want something 48QFN or something, QFP if we really must (hate them but they are hand solderable) .... and from my two vendors that I am familiar withXilinx. .... there is a 1mm 256 BGA package..... groan. Efinix- there is a 144p QFP. mmm yuk. I'm not going back to the bad old days of big QFPs.neither I like for a board with PB switches and rotary encoders..But you guys are talking small QFN etc fromGowinhas got me interested. It's not hi tech and really I dont even have to care about timing, it'll all work. so as long as the tools will FAITHFULLY accept a HDL file, it will work.needs 78kb for display buffer plus maybe a few hundred bytes for minimalistic 10 instruction CPU etc. Rules out ICE40. Lattice Igloo 1 has some packages that will work but not enough RAMBut Gowin.. if their tools work for simple stuff....GW2A-18, GWN1 in a QFN32, QFN48, QFN88 could even deal with a LQ100..... perfect.

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 08:42:38 am
content: You find QFN easier to solder than QFP?

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2024, 08:50:27 am
content: yeah I find them easier.... But I have paste setup, machines and xray.... Never ever had a pin short issue with QFNSo today, I updated my Efinix Trion selector guide, and they now have a T13 and T20 device in QFP100 :-) $5. I can handle a QFP100, on rotation they are not so difficult (smaller size / smaller radius).so Efinix it is.and the device has a built in FLASH part for config. I can have it boot up with a bootloader from flash, and listen for comms on two LVDS pairs, and have its config file loaded up on the pairs, then it can trigger reconfiguration....

author: colorado.rob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 03:55:17 pm
content: I, too, find QFN easier to solder than QFP when using a paste stencil. Most of my boards need a paste stencil to do the fine-pitch passives anyway. I do a few one-off designs with larger passives and QFP to avoid the small added cost of using a stencil. But that's the exception rather than the rule.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 04:13:15 pm
content: If you let the pads of a QFP package stick out about 0.3 to 0.4mm, they are easy to hand solder. Nowadays I tin the pads, reflow the package using hot air and touch up with a solder iron. But I do have thermal vias in the exposed pad so the excess solder under the package can flow away if necessary.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 07:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: c64 on February 03, 2024, 06:41:34 amStrange ...That day i could browse TaoBao ... Today i'm just sent to "Member login" on every link i click.These are my notes from that day ...Quote

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2024, 10:33:04 pm
content: so, I would say a Efinix T13 QFP100 part with built in config flashis a good option for a XC9500 replacement- except for the 5V issue, so you'll need a bunch of translators these days.T13Q100F3C3 $8 at digikey .the bigger logic one T20Q100F3C3 is only an extra $1.I usehttps://www.ti.com/product/TXU0101, they are a do-all 1 to 5.5V dual supply translator in a sot23 or sc70there is a 4 way version...https://www.ti.com/product/TXU0104and it is in a TSSOP or QFN etcas for QFP, yeah I only avoid stencils for somestuff because there is a big setup time to put it into the printer etc, align it, then clean it afterwards....

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2024, 10:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on February 07, 2024, 07:57:19 pmThese are all bare chips. Not dev boards

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2024, 10:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on February 07, 2024, 07:57:19 pmYes they do this most of the time. Not hard to register though. Can register with any mobile phone number (not chinese)