Which PCB CAD for low level pro? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 04:23:50 pm
content: Okay so I've just finished a layout on eagle and had to mod it so it was manufacturable (hole sizes too small) and so I made them larger which split my goround plane making some expensive boards almost useless and I haven't even received them! I know these things happen, and it was down to my negligence, but I feel Eagle didn't help me too much and think it's stuck in the stone age.I'm now starting a business with my old boss and I want something a little more sophisticated but don't have a huge budget. I want some that has the scope for 6 layer boards and ideally not limited on pins. I need something that has live DRC and air wire warnings. Eagle is also very slow with little intuitiveness - I want something modern feeling not something that feels like it's from the DOS days!On my gap year I used Proteus which was quite good I felt, I think Altium will be too expensive and Cadence definitely will be. What do you guys recommend?

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 05:25:24 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 12, 2016, 04:40:36 pmThanks I've started a trial.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 05:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: Boscoe on March 12, 2016, 04:23:50 pmSo, you admit that it was your fault but still you want to blame Eagle for it?How can Eagle help you if you don't setup correctly the designrules for your project with the information from your boardhouse?If you don't know these basic rules, another software is not going to help you.

author: Feynman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 06:03:01 pm
content: Yeah, for bigger projects EAGLE is a pain in the ass.You may want to have a look at Pulsonix. It has a reasonable cost/feature ratio.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 06:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 12, 2016, 05:38:40 pmWhy should we? Eagle is doing just fine.Quote from: blueskull on March 12, 2016, 05:38:40 pmI like it. And what's wrong with doing things properly?Quote from: blueskull on March 12, 2016, 05:38:40 pmI have been using AD for a year. It's not bad but I prefer Eagle. Somehow, my projects finish faster and with less errors.Sometimes I assist engineers from other companies with their hardware design. Some of them use AD andI can tell you horror stories about the errors they made when using AD.I don't say that Eagle is perfect. It isn't. But that bloated, unstable and overpriced AD isn't either.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 06:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: Feynman on March 12, 2016, 06:03:01 pmWe do bigger projects with Eagle and our asses are doing fine. No complaints so far.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 07:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: Boscoe on March 12, 2016, 04:23:50 pmOrCad PCB Designer is reasonably priced and has no arbitrary restrictions on design size.As your needs grow, you can then seamlessly upgrade to PCB Designer Professional and then Allegro.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 08:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on March 12, 2016, 05:29:52 pmNo I don't blame Eagle at all and I've done some big projects with it. I just feel it's really stuck in the past - which I like and dislike. This time I made a mistake which would have been easily picked up in fractions of a second on most other packages. It was all because I didn't have the internal layers turned on and there were no errors! This is ludicrous! So easy to make silly mistakes like I did.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 08:16:36 pm
content: Just downloading OrCad demo.I really didn't like CircuitDesigner. Very cumber-sum and intuitive I found. Proteus is okay and much better than CS I've found so far however it still doesn't seem very nice to use.I've heard good things about Cadence software so lets hope it's a winner.

author: AndrewDojo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 08:25:39 pm
content: If you liked Proteus, why is it not part of the conversation? Too obscure/small market? Technical limits?I have been a Proteus user since 2004.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 08:40:51 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 12, 2016, 07:25:38 pmIsn't Orcad PCB Designer the same as Allegro but with some features disabled?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 08:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: Boscoe on March 12, 2016, 08:09:56 pmWhy?Quote from: Boscoe on March 12, 2016, 08:09:56 pmSo, most other packages don't let you turn off internal layers?What error should have been raised by most other packages and not by Eagle?

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 11:10:34 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on March 12, 2016, 08:41:46 pmWell for instance whether you have the layers turned on or off Proteus will tell you at the bottom how many air wires you have and how many DRC errors.Other packages such as Altium Designer just have unreal higher levels of process and sophistication in their verification that Eagle - Eagle is very primitive.I feel on complex designs it is possible to use Eagle but to do it professionally and reliably you need something better. Designs just get to a point of complexity where humans are just incapable of not making mistakes and so proper procedure is needed. Why bother with something more complicated than Eagle if it's not needed? Why aren't missile designers using Eagle? I think Eagle is very good compared to a lot of packages I've tried but I think it's scope is limited and it's very manual.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 11:22:47 pm
content: Just today I've had a go at:Altium CircuitStudioAltium DesignerCadence OrCadProteus 8.4Have previous experience ofEagleDiptraceI have to say the PCB layout in Eagle is my favorite so far but I think that's just because I know how to use it. It does seem to be a lot simpler though for good and bad.Circuit studio was a bad experience - I felt it very clumsy.Proteus schematic capture is nice - probably the best out of all packages and the layout isn't too bad - a little bit clumsy. Creating large pin count packages seems like a nightmare though as I think you have to enter individual pin numbers manually! Not looking forward to those BGAs!OrCad was frustrating and haven't got to export to PCB yet because none of the built in libraries seem to have packages but I think that's just me. It does seem quite old. I like the schematic capture.Eagle is a good old tool. It's simple and straight forward with nice amount of flexibility but lacks higher end features and basic like live PCB refresh, DRC and air wire and auto drawing nodes on nets!!!Diptrace is just awful!Overall it boggles my mind how such a simple program hasn't been made good yet. There is not one solution that ticks all of the boxes. Eagle would overall perfect for me if it had:- live air wire warnings- live PCB update (don't keep having to hit RATSNEST)- live DRC on the bottom toolbar- real direct keyboard shortcuts, no CTRL, shift modifiers.- a bonus: when joining wires in schematic together it automatically applies a circle on the node. Yes you actually have to do that manually!

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 11:26:11 pm
content: Another vote for Proteus. I've been using it since the beginning, with several 100 pcb designs to date, probably more.You can start "cheap" and upgrade as you require more pins. And it is the most WYSIWYG package I've tried. If you already know it <shrug>What was the last version you used? Anything you didn't like about it?Edit:Quote from: BoscoeMust have posted just as you did. ?? I create large packages fine ??

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 11:37:16 pm
content: Any tool is good when you know how to use it, I find EAGLE simple to use and full featured, Olimex use it to create their ARM boards, and they are not simple! They seem to do alright.The only real thing missing from EAGLE for me is live 3D view, but there are 3rd party tools that can assist with that.It sounds like you need to create yourself a checklist and go through it before committing to manufacturer and just take a few extra moments to check everything is as it should.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:01:53 am
content: Quote from: Boscoe on March 12, 2016, 11:10:34 pmEagle is no different. No matter if you turn off a layer, it will show you the number of airwires, just hit the ratsnest button.In my setup I assigned F7 to ratsnest, F8 to ripup the polygon fill and F9 to DRC.So, after making some modifications, I hit F7, F8, F9 and I will be sure that everything is fine.It is also much faster than, for example, AD's "compile" command.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:09:41 am
content: Quote from: Boscoe on March 12, 2016, 11:22:47 pmNo auto drawing nodes on nets? Are you sure you are using the NET command and not the WIRE command?If you use the WIRE command to draw nets, Eagle will not create the junctions and it will not automatically stop drawing aftermaking a connection (you have to use escape).Eagle does have live pcb refresh. When you change someting in the schematic, the layout will be updated immediately.Or do you mean something else?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:18:23 am
content: Live DRC isn't a higher-end feature, it's how you know you're using EDA software and not MS Paint.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:19:52 am
content: If you want real live updates of drc and polygon fills without the need to hit ratsnest or drc, the program will be slow as hell.Maybe not with simple small two or four layer boards but for sure with more complex and high-density boards.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 08:17:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 12, 2016, 08:40:51 pmYes, it's the exact same binary.Quote from: Boscoe on March 12, 2016, 11:22:47 pmThe software itself is absolutely current; maintenance updates are produced for it every month.I agree it doesfeela bit old, and the learning curve is quite steep. You really won't scratch the surface in a day.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 10:54:35 am
content: Quote from: Karel on March 13, 2016, 12:09:41 amThanks for the info on the NET I have to say I didn't know about that. Your right on the ratsnest and air wires too however I still maintain it's silly having to refresh your PCB. And what I mean by that is something like drawing nets through planes - they disappear until you hit ratsnest.The reason for this mistake was I was using the 'airwire' ulp which doesn't work with layers switched off. I should have had them on but forgot as it was meant to be a quick edit. I want more sophisticated software to help me catch mistakes because, at the end of the day, they do happen.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 10:55:56 am
content: Quote from: digsys on March 12, 2016, 11:26:11 pmI had only used Proteus for basic stuff a few years ago. How do you do it?Proteus is winning for me atm.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 10:56:58 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 13, 2016, 12:18:23 amThat's how I feel!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 11:11:41 am
content: IMHO the only way to really test a CAD package is to make at least 2 boards with it following a tutorial. There is no use in starting this kind of software and start hitting keys blindly. This means you'll need to do a pre-selection on which packages to focus on because you can't test them all. The first thing is to set a budget and look which packages can be purchased for that price. Then try to collect and categorize experience from others and sift the facts from the opinions and user mistakes. After that you should have a few packages left to delve deeper into.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 02:35:46 pm
content: Quote from: BoscoeThis is a simple PCB I did a while ago, it's an EV battery management system:www.pbase.com/digsys/projectsSome more odds and ends after a clear-out:www.pbase.com/digsys/electronics_stuffz(not all obviously)If you mean - how do you make a complex package - it's the most intuitive method I'd ever used. Easiest way is to -Grab a few similar packages that you like - then "break them apart". 1 click. CUT / COPY / MOVE pins, tags, lines etc to make your new package. Edit the pins.Set a grid and snap to it. Add any cute stuff and click "Make package". I'd be happy to send you a huge selection to check out / play with / use if you want.I often make several version of the same "chip" to suit specific issues, it's just so fast and easy.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 09:02:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 13, 2016, 11:11:41 amYes I understand this. I will be thoroughly testing them over the coming weeks.

author: Boscoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 09:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on March 13, 2016, 02:35:46 pmThanks! The libraries are quite comprehensive so butchering theirs might work. I don't see any quick way of naming pads so potentially could have to name hundreds of pins one by one rather than copying them and they automatically increment in number.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 09:52:47 pm
content: Quote from: Boscoe on March 13, 2016, 09:03:44 pmAFAIK every commercial CAD package comes with a footprint generator which should be able to generate footprints with many pins like BGA, QFN, QFP, etc.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 11:43:33 pm
content: There's the problem that every EDA-software has at least those 10 features you miss, and those top 10 bugs or ux fails. You just have to find the optimal compromise.Best one for me is the relatively unknown software TARGET 3001. Greatest thing about it is that there aren't any hard limits on things you can and can't to with it, unless you want to design some advanced RF black magic.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2016, 07:18:10 pm
content: Quote from: m98 on March 13, 2016, 11:43:33 pm+1But I believe the component database cannot tap the full potential outside the European market. The order numbers and the deep links into the distributor shops (Conrad, Reichelt, ...) are _maybe_ useless in Australia or the US. (?)However the newcomponiversea really nice feature.Cheershammy

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2016, 11:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on March 14, 2016, 07:18:10 pmI just always search for the parts in google or the big distributors like mouser, RS, and Farnell, because the links from the component database are often outdated or just too expensive. Same for datasheets, why did they come to the conclusion that anyone would like to use a page like datasheets.com?However I don't often use parts from the database, most of the time I need to create them, which is really fast and easy in Target.

author: tycz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2016, 02:28:22 am
content: Boscoe,I suggest you try PCB Elegance. It's a full featured commercial EDA package that was release for free/open source a few years ago when the company that made it went out of business. I use it for all my projects and find it to be excellent. The user interface is particularly well thought out and consistent, which is a part a some EDA packages struggle with. Previously I used Protel/Altium for many years and always felt I was fighting with it. PCB Elegance is a lot more fun to use in comparison.I host the software myself because the original website has gone.http://etim.net.au/pcbelegance/It comes with a comprehensive user manual (unlike Altium - ha) and a few example projects (one's a Pentium motherboard). The component library it comes with isn't great, but it's easy to make new schematic symbols and footprints.

author: AndrewDojo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2016, 09:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: Boscoe on March 12, 2016, 11:22:47 pm1. Place a pad/pin.2. Right click on it and choose "Replicate". Specify the number of copies, and X/Y offset. OK.3. Hit N to bring up the auto name generator. Don't change anything - just OK (hit the enter key)4. Click on each pad in turn to number it.5. Hit N and then Cancel/Esc key to stop numbering.If you want a letter prefix to the pin number (e.g. BGA), Just type what you want into the "String" field in the Auto Name Generator in step 3. If you want to start numbering from a value other than 1, change the Count field to the start you want.You can select one or more pads and rotate them using +/- keys.Right click on one of the selected pads and choose "Move To" to move the pad to a specific coordinate. All the other selected pads will move as relative as well.

author: xygor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2016, 10:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: tycz on March 16, 2016, 02:28:22 amI found that it crashed frequently when messing around with the PC mobo example. I traced it down to some function being called with a null pointer. I never did pursue it far enough to fix it though.It was a while ago, but I did make a list of notes about it, which I list here in case it helps:PCB Elegance 3.501. Full version now available without cost. The included gerber viewer,VIEWPLOT 2.0, however needs to be purchased and unlocked with a donglefor all of VIEWPLOT's features to be available. Can view, but noediting and saving.2. No Blind/buried vias.3. Modes are confusing.4. No fine grained clearances. (i.e. all combinations of pad, via,trace, and layer.)5. Schematic symbol creation allows for 20 pins at a time, butpasting in pinnames works. The pinname text, however, is nottied to the pin, so it is possible to make a mistake if you areno careful when editing the component during creation.6. Only 3 grid fixed choices in schematic editor and symbol editor. Thismakes it difficult to do fancy graphics. Can use scaling, but stuff can'tbe brought back on the grid when scaling to final size. It moves inthe current grid increments, just displaced from the current grid.7. Layers are opaque. Plane layers are negative so are transparent.Area fills on plane layers are not transparent, but are painted first,so that signal layers are not obscured.8. Can't draw on plane layers except for area fills.9. Can display properties of things, but can't edit them there.10. Crashes in the pcb editor, especially when the pc motherboard exampleis open and dragging traces or panning.11. Difficult or maybe not possible to insert a vertex in an existing trace."drag one trace" sometimes drags after clicking. Other times, it justhighlights. It gets into the highlighting mode after choosingright-click->escape. The esc key will not do it. After highlight,right-click->drag must be selected to get into drag. "d" shortcut doesnot work. Or you must go into some other mode and reenter drag tracemode.12. Need to highlight something before selecting info command, but you mustbe in the right mode to select something and the right mode depends onthe something. (Hover ballons always work on visible objects.)Info displays a table which includes the one or more items selected.Info does not work for traces.13. Drag trace does not work consistently. Erratic at times.14. Can't insert a vertex, which can be useful before a drag. And draggingdoes not insert any vertexes. Therefore, it is not possible to draga straight trace that connects two vias, for example. But route netcan be used to modify a trace that has a network assigned.15. Right-click->"Other menus"->whatever changes modes (aka menus), but doesnot update button tiles on the screen, so they get temporarily out ofsync with each other.16. No permanent display of pin numbers or net names, but hovering showsproperties of vias and traces.17. No choice of font. Vector only. But schematic can create pdf withsearchable text. Apparently uses courier font when making pdf. It'snice to not have to worry about it, but the screen appearance can bedifferent than the print appearance. (slashed zero on screen, noslash on print, for example.)18. No net classes, but it is easy to apply class-like attributes (clearance,trace width, via) to individual nets.19. No easy way to get a report of board statistics.20. Stippling (great for color blind people.) 15 predefined patterns. Anycolor can be chosen for each of the two colors in the pattern.21. GPL'd Source code! Can compile with VC2010, VC2005, or mingw.22. Online active DRC prevents clearance errors while routing ordragging traces. Moving traces is free-range and the end points disconnectno DRC for that.23. While routing a trace, can push another trace that is in the way whilemaintaining clearance on both traces. Only traces/vias/pins/areafillsin the current view are used in the collision detection.24. Schematics must be hierarchical. Every sheet needs a symbol sheet exceptthe top level. But the sheets can be interconnected with a bus. Busescan be a mixed collection of signals. Power connections are global.It might be possible to make global signals too, but I don't knowhow yet.25. One-to-one correspondence from design layers to gerber layers.26. Trace length calculation is not valid if there is more than one parallelpath. It's even shorter than the shortest path, so it's not reallyuseful under that circumstance.27. Conflicting net trace collisions caused by a component move are deleted.28. ODB++ export.29. Help is too sparse. Can't search. Manual is same information. Verylacking in details and concepts.30. Can measure freely. No grid snap for measurements, and that's good.31. Footprint generator can make some regular patterns easily. e.g. BGAwith all the pads having the correct pin numbers.32. Schematic symbols and component footprints are separate. Assign afootprint (called geometry by the program) in the schematic by doubleclicking the component (no menu choice to do this). A differentgeometry can also later be changed in either the schematic editoror pcb editor and updated in the other with reverse or forward annotate.33. No reference designator renumbering in the layout editor.34. No cursor key nudging during move. Movement occurs, but in big steps.35. No teardrop.36. Ratnest lines are very helpful during manual routing. It shows theconnection from the route in progress to the nearest destination.Similar to eagle. No need to toggle between straight-45 and 45-staightas in eagle though; It does this automatically depending on the cursorpath taken.37. Mask swell and paste shrink are part of the footprint definition, butcan take on default values at creation time.38. Produces RS-274X output without using painting. Oops; it creates aaperture macro for a rotated rectangular pad, but ends up painting it!

author: tycz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 05:04:21 am
content: xygor,Thanks for your notes. I made some comments below.PCB Elegance has its bugs, as is the rule with EDA software it seems. Most are innocuous and easy to work around once you know about them. I've made a list of all the bugs I've found with the intention of fixing them at some point. I'm proficient in C programming but because I only work with embedded systems, I need to set aside some time to learn how to use MS Visual Studio, its debugger, and general Windows programming practices before I can start.QuoteThat's consistent with other aspects of symbol and also PCB geometry (footprint) creation. Similarly, you can separate out the copper, solder mask, paste mask, etc. layers in the geometry editor. It allows maximum flexibility, but does requite a bit more care from the user.The way is uses the multi line text boxes for fast name entry is great for getting new component creation over and done with quickly. It's something I haven't seen before on other EDA packages I've tried. There's always some amount of mouse work required between each pin entered.QuoteThe way it's meant to work (according to the manual) is you can sort all the components by their various attributes, select which ones you like, hit OK and the components will be highlighted on the schematic. Then you can use features like Edit Multiple Components to do a mass edit.Unfortunately, the Select Components By List feature is broken.QuoteIf you are in Drag One Trace mode and pan with the right mouse button while you are dragging a trace at the same time it will crash. The screen automatically pans while dragging so there's never a need to do it manually with the mouse. It's the only crash bug I've encountered and it's on the top of the bug list.QuoteYou seem to be mixing up different modes/features here.There are three PCB trace modes. Drag one trace, Change traces/vias, Route traces. All three modes are mapped to the same shortcut key "s" which toggles between them. If you use the keyboard, I recommend giving them each their own separate key (in the config file) otherwise it gets too confusing trying to toggle.Drag one trace mode has only one feature - sliding whole trace segments around (there's probably a better way to describe that).Change traces/vias - This is basically the trace selector and attribute modifier tool. Depending on which part of the trace segment you select you can move all of it or just end of it with the Move Traces/Vias (shortcut key "d") feature. I don't recommend ever using this feature to move traces. It's half broken, awkward to use, and totally unnecessary. I only ever use it to move vias.Route traces - This the mode you would normally spend the most time in. It's not only useful for drawing new traces, but also modifying existing ones.QuoteEverything on the PCB falls into one of four categories. Component, areafill/powerplane, trace/via, special. Specials being all free elements like lines, arcs, holes, polygons, holes, text, etc. which are not part of a component. You must be in each category's respective mode to select it. It works well and prevents silly mistakes like selecting a component when you meant to select a track running between it's legs. Another example, if you want to reroute a section of the board you can simply select the area while in Change Traces/Vias mode and press delete without worrying that you might take the power planes, and pieces of silkscreen text out with them.QuoteI don't use the Drag one trace feature much. It's useful when there are a lot of parallel traces that need to be moved over, but otherwise it's usually quicker to use route traces mode instead.QuoteSo they do. I hadn't seen that one before because I usually use the keyboard shortcuts. I'll put it on the bug list.QuoteEverything in the schematic is vector. The PCB has a choice of vector font, a few built fonts, or any font from the windows system. To choose the windows font you need to click on the button called "Mirror X" (mistitled, another bug) which brings up a standard font chooser dialogue box.QuoteI don't know about this one either. I don't make multi sheet schematics, but instead put everything one one big sheet. There doesn't appear to be to be any significant limits on sheet size so I've made some quite huge ones before. It's still fast to navigate because the the panning speed can be set to a multiple of the mouse speed.QuoteYou can search in the manual. I agree that it's lacking a bit on explaining concepts. There may not be enough info there for people who are new to EDA software in general. It's been a while since I've looked at it though.

author: xygor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2016, 10:02:09 am
content: @tyczThank you for the explanations.Thank you for maintaining PCB Elegance. It is too good to just let it die.

author: JohnnyP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2016, 11:14:15 am
content: I've used McCad PCB-ST (exclusively) since 1989.