FCC Proposes $2.8 Million Fine Against HobbyKing - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: maiekmire
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:07:23 pm
content: Did a search and couldn't find anyone else posting this URL to the FCC release, in regards to HobbyKing selling uncertified items.https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-351279A1.pdf

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:34:11 pm
content: Selling non-certified "intentional radiators" into the US market, which operate on all kinds of frequency bands (including some reserved for the FAA), at up to 2W; then irgnoring a cease-and-desist letter from the FCC... How much more brazen can one get?

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:42:15 pm
content: HobbyKing does have a US warehouse.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:48:12 pm
content: The FCC says the lawyer in the end simply refused to further communicate, so I assume they'll just let the FCC sue their US corporations into bankruptcy ... writing off whatever funds they couldn't pull out as a loss.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:49:04 pm
content: What it seems HobbyKing were trying to get away with is this:QuoteThis could have some impact on other companies that sell devices to "makers" or in other ways expect the end-user to respect the local regulations. Which as we know has all kinds of issues (such as making it difficult to provide open-source firmware for wifi chipsets). HobbyKing is arguably in a border-line area as they sell essentially modules and components (though it doesn't sound like they made much of an effort to defend such a position if such would have been their intent).

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 10, 2018, 08:41:01 pmBut isn't that exactly how the enforcement works? I guess CBP does not even have to stop 100% of HobbyKing shipments. If word spreads that, as a US customer, you stand a significant chance of having your HobbyKing purchase seized and destroyed, I would assume that to hurt their business quite a bit.Not sure what the rules of this game are -- if HobbyKing shold decide to ignore the FCC fine, canalltheir products be banned from the US, not just the ones known to be non-compliant?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 09:20:29 pm
content: The more likely scenario is that they have difficulty accepting payment through US networks. If you can't even pay for your order you won't have a chance to find out whether it gets through customs.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 09:39:19 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 10, 2018, 09:36:12 pmWikileaks...

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 09:46:30 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 10, 2018, 09:36:12 pmYeah. I've had some really weird routes before. Ordered stuff from China and they list their warehouse in China but it came postmarked from Thailand via the Netherlands. Or where it magically got teleported from China to the UK where they slapped a new label on it and posted it using Royal Mail.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 10:22:38 pm
content: This is a drop in the ocean. This type of violation is bundled together with several others and is used as leverage on the negotiations table to impose restrictions or even tariff increases of all products coming from the COO.If a single event happens to be too significant for trade but enforcement is impossible to do, pressure is put on another segment (commodities, for example) so the COO cracks down on the company.This happened at large in the 70's~80's between peripheral and "first world" economies.

author: maiekmire
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 10:31:13 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 10, 2018, 09:39:19 pmThey take a stance on using PayPal to make firearm related purchases as well.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 10:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: janekm on June 10, 2018, 08:49:04 pmThis is an issue which has been impacting silicon vendors for several years. In many companies the policy one week is to ship uncertified RF EVMs as tools for professional engineers, which they need to treat like any other lab equipment. The next week the policy is full certification for everything, which is seldom possible for an EVM. At this point we loop, rinse, repeat, and always struggle to get things out the door.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 10:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: janekm on June 10, 2018, 08:49:04 pmI guess it comes down to whether the device itself or using the device is illegalif selling a device that can transmit on "illegal" frequencies are illegal there is a whole lot of gear that is illegal

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 11:04:47 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 10, 2018, 10:52:22 pmor function generators, network analyzers, probably also most wifi routers

author: JohnMc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 11:28:19 pm
content: Is not the standard way to handle this for HobbyKing to "close" and HobbyKing2 or Hobbykingz or KingHobby to pop up.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 11:35:47 pm
content: Quote from: JohnMc on June 10, 2018, 11:28:19 pmHobbyQueen?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 11:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: janekm on June 10, 2018, 08:49:04 pmAs far as I know, that's no longer a real problem in any jurisdiction I'm aware of, because the existing open source firmwares comply with local regulations. Simply put, the argument (against making it difficult to provide open-source firmware for radio devices) is/was that anyone can modify a radio device to operate in an illegal band, or even build a transmitter from scratch, but all the existing open source firmwares try hard to comply with the rules, and make it easy for users to comply with the rules. Verifiable open source firmware that tries hard to comply with regulations is always better than stuff people hack together because they need the device to work.Currently, the main block seems to be the various restrictions manufacturers have, due to IP deals they've made, making it impossible to open the device hardware documentation, thus making open source firmware or even drivers nigh impossible. (Just look at how long it took AMD: years! And they were really keen to do it.) In general, it is also much cheaper just to cobble something together that seems to work, package it as a binary firmware, and let the users do the beta-testing. They're used to it, and won't complain too bad, especially if you release a new firmware a year later to fix some of the problems and add support to the newest buzzwords. You can even hire the cheapest of cheap developers to do it.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 12:09:07 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 10, 2018, 11:51:53 pmbut if the hardware isn't locked down so the software need to be signed, you can just rebuild with all the restrictions removed

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 01:56:12 am
content: Hobby King has nothing to worry about. The US government is weak on corporate crime, as are most western governments. The best way to get compliance is to jail the CEO of a company that commits the crime. Ultimately he is responsible. Most western jails are full of poor, uneducated people. Not many wealthy people or executives among them. One would expect a few senior execs from the HSBC Bank, Commonwealth Bank and Chevron execs doing a long stint in jail to think about their crimes. Nope. The Volkswagen exec only got 7 years, but a black guy in California got 25 years for allegedly stealing a slice of pizza.https://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/05/us/25-years-for-a-slice-of-pizza.html.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 02:40:49 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on June 11, 2018, 01:56:12 amHe actually only served 5 years of a reduced sentence.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 03:25:30 am
content: I don't know about you guys, but seven years would be a serious chunk of off time for me. While I agree that the ratio between time served and the crimes is wrong, both sentences get into the real bugaboo territory. You can laugh off a couple of days in jail as an embarrassment. Maybe you can make arrangements to pick up the pieces of your life after a month or two in the pokey. But when you start talking about years it is a serious reboot.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 05:03:08 am
content: Slightly different thing to ban test equipment and eval stuff which is capable of messing up the spectrum, but also can be used without messing it up, by professionals to do work, vs a piece of basically consumer electronics that violates compliance requirements out of the box and is intended purely for use as delivered...

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 08:44:30 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 11, 2018, 12:09:07 amSo? There is no need for a hardware lock-down, because it is trivial to build a device that messes up that part of the spectrum anyway.It is not the possibility of an expert using the device in a harmful fashion that the legislators want to avoid, but the case where lots of end-users have cheap but harmful devices in use!Look at it this way: Do you need to ban an engine that works perfectly fine within regulations using standard fuel, but can also be run using highly poisonous, high-performance rocket fuel? No, because the illegal, restricted part is using prohobited fuel, not having an engine thatcanrun on illegal fuel. (At least in Finland this analogy works: most diesel engines can use furnace/marine oil, and some actually do (because it is lots cheaper). Yet, those diesel engines are legal. It is only illegal to use furnace/marine oil in diesel engines.)In other words, the idea of a hardware lockdown makes only sense if it would otherwise be difficult to produce the emissions. But it isn't. It's dirt cheap. And people do, when they hate their neighbours, and don't want them to have a WiFi connection; they can just build them from scratch, for comparatively little effort. You cannot ban the components, because they're ubiquitous.The same thing applies to certain explosives and fuel jellies (napalm). You can easily make them from household stuff. Yet, the household stuff is not illegal. It isn't even illegal to describe the chemical compounds and reactions used. We're just hush-hush about that, so that governments do not need to intervene. The thing that is usually illegal is to put out a handbook on how to create improvised explosives. Similarly, an open-source firmware should make it easy to follow the various regulations based on location, but non-obvious to a non-programmer how to change the limits and ignore the location setting. So, no#define FREQ_MINtype of stuff in the code; but no hardware lockdown either. (Instead, you have e.g. byte arrays defining the settings for each locale, with a text file somewhere describing the math used to calculate them.) Otherwise, we'd have to ban all sorts of household chemicals, and most detergents, so that evil chemists won't blow up stuff.As far as I can tell, open source firmwares are currently treated analogously to self-monitoring agricultural supply stores. If they don't make it too easy for nasty people to mess stuff up, they're not blocked by legislation.Really, the largest opposition is by the manufacturers themselves, who do not want them opened. Could be due to fears of copyright infringement, but I suspect inter-company licensing agreements and pure company management strategies are at the core. Whenever you hear a politician or similar talking about this stuff, there is a recent visit by a big industry player in the background. And then there are patents.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 08:58:29 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 10, 2018, 09:36:12 pmPaypal has frozen the account of Wikileaks, seemingly after political pressure behind the scenes. As far as I'm aware they still owe Wikileaks around a million dollar.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 09:57:14 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 11, 2018, 03:25:30 amPeople don't seem to understand this. They want to lock up people for years for relatively petty crimes, but don't understand this basically means starting from square one. You don't easily get a job any more, you have a hole in your resume if you ignore the conviction, you've lost your house and probably are in debt if you owned that house, you lost most or all personal belongings and everyone around you moved on. With a bit of luck your family will still accept you, but a spouse or children will have had their own lives for years. You generally also lose the best years you have left. If you started serving your sentence 15 years ago you stepped out of the world when Facebook didn't exist. Smartphones weren't ubiquitous and the world wasn't anywhere near as connected as it is now. People don't realize how quickly the world around us changes and how much people are left behind.If people weren't terribly well adjusted when they're convicted, how can we ever expect them to cope with a world that has changed in major ways and isn't very keen on them? Some people did things that should have consequences, but a sentence should be both reasonable and functional. Society isn't served by creating useless outcasts that have nothing but the criminal skills they honed in prison. The best scenario is having these people become productive members of society again, rather than a burden and dead weight. That's not possible in all cases, but shifting the focus more towards reintegration instead of punishing and warehousing convicts would definitely help a lot.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 10:01:16 am
content: Quote from: janekm on June 10, 2018, 08:49:04 pmIn most places it works that way. The person importing the goods is responsible for ensuring it's legal. However, it seems Hobbyking has several connections to the US even though the FCC also seems to target the Hong Kong part of the business."HobbyKing is the trade name of several U.S.-based companies (ABC Fulfillment Services LLC and Indubitably, Inc.) as well as a Hong Kong-based company (Hextronik LTD), all associated with an individual named Anthony Hand. 3 HobbyKing.com, HobbyKing’s website, markets numerous recreational radio frequency devices intended for use with model airplanes and drones to customers all over the world, including the United States. 4 HobbyKing has a New York office and customer service operations in the United States. 5"

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 10:28:13 am
content: While the FCC is bureaucratic, inefficient, often ineffective, overly politicised and occasionally heavy handed, this seem to me like a perfectly valid slapdown.Intentional radiators are, when sold to the general public, somewhat regulated for a reason, and at the volumes they move there really is no excuse.Ignoring governments in markets in which you deal is also seldom a good plan, bit like ignoring a letter from the taxman really, it seldom ends cheaply.73 Dan.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 12:49:02 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on June 11, 2018, 10:28:13 amI agree.When I was young, in the era of analog TV broadcasts, I lived north of the Arctic Circle. Whenever anyone rode a snowmobile in the vicinity (say within 100m or 300ft or so), there'd be an awful lot of noise in some TV channels. Requiring manufacturers to limit EM radiation to under specific limits, and to certain frequency bands, is pretty important nowadays. I'd personally get pretty irate if my WiFi/LTE connection dropped out just because a neighbor is flying their el-cheapo drone. Or if my wireless temperature sensor went crazy, or something like that...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 01:48:33 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 11, 2018, 12:49:02 pmStill, it's a matter of jurisdiction. If they retract from the US market the US really hasn't got a say in what they sell.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 02:17:56 pm
content: Well, WiFi is generally in an ISM band so you really have no meaningful protection there, if the radio was properly restricted to the appropriate frequencies it could maybe have been approved.Now if we could get them to slap down the "Ethernet over Mains" and "ADSL and never mind the line balance" crowd....I don't entirely get the 70cms thing, I mean a licensed amateur specifically is allowed to buy random radio transmitters and modify them before placing them on the air, because we are assumed (not always a safe assumption!) to be technically competent to do so.Regards, Dan.

author: niladherbert
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 02:36:06 pm
content: Why is the law generally that possession of this/use of this is illegal, where it could be: If, by using this, you are harming a person or reducing their freedom, we would kindly ask you to change your ways so that you do not harm them or reduce their freedom, and should you persist, we shall confiscate your equipment until such time as we believe you shall change your ways, or else destroy it as the equipment has no non-malicious usage

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 06:12:39 pm
content: Quote from: niladherbert on June 11, 2018, 02:36:06 pmBecause there are too many humans who read that as"I can do whatever I want, because I am a good person; and therefore I also have the right to demand others do as I want; but if they demand anything from me, they are just mean, because as a good person, I am not doing anyone any harm".Or, if you prefer a more blunt wording, because very few humans are capable of seeing beyond their own navel.

author: Twenty4Pack
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 09:52:51 pm
content: True: PayPal has also declined to support the folks at KnifeCenter.

author: The Doktor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 03:41:38 am
content: Quote from: Twenty4Pack on June 12, 2018, 09:52:51 pmAnd Russian music service allofmp3/alltunes. Visa blocked them as well.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2018, 03:33:28 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 11, 2018, 09:57:14 amIn the USA, 17 US states provide no compensation to exonerees, including no social support - just a "You are free to go" by some smug judge. Recently one man walked out with nothing but the shirt on his back after spending 18 years in jail for a crime proven he did not commit. When he did get a job, the bastards garnished his paycheck and froze his bank accounts to get $40K in child support he could not pay whilst in jail.I am reading this book The Sun Does Shine. No surprise it happened in Alabama (the good 'ol white boy state)...https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/oprahs-latest-book-club-selection-is-an-epic-memoir-by-an-exonerated-death-row-inmate_us_5b15d081e4b093ac33a10742Anyone who believes the USA is "The Land of the Free" must have rocks in their head.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2018, 03:53:43 am
content: Quote from: helius on June 11, 2018, 02:40:49 amWhat does the colour of someone's skin have to do with crime and sentencing?The guy didn't get 25 years just for stealing pizza, he got 25 years because he was a shit bag with prior convictions for robbery, drugs and motor vehicle offences. The stealing was just the icing on the cake.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2018, 04:01:51 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on June 16, 2018, 03:33:28 amAnd then the typical follow-up is, it's still the best place on earth.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2018, 04:06:18 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on June 16, 2018, 03:33:28 amI didn't know there were states that don't compensate or help people to some degree after a wrongful conviction. That just seems cruel beyond comprehension.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2018, 04:20:03 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on June 16, 2018, 04:01:51 amObligatory video response.https://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2018, 04:10:39 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 16, 2018, 04:06:18 amWhen law enforcement is rated by convictions, rather than exposing the truth, why would you expect compensation for false convictions to be taken seriously? Only a few legal systems, such as France and Scotland, have a specific role for someone in the court to try to figure out, and make public, what actually occurred. In most places its a pure gladiatorial game, with the judge merely ensuring the game is conducted according to the rules.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 12:10:46 am
content: This is all way off topic, but interesting.Part of the problem is figuring out what just compensation for a wrongful conviction is. Lost wages is the easiest part and that is hard. When you add in loss of reputation, loss of non-work life, possible punitive damages it becomes both enormous and incomprehensible.All of this adds up to confirm my belief that there should be two types of prison sentences. One which is intended to keep dangerous people away from society should basically always be life, or at least into old age. And should be pretty rare.The other is intended as a preventative measure, a penalty which will cause at least some people to think twice before doing something wrong. It doesn't take much to make whatever difference this is going to make. For any case where the person gains under a million dollars (and somehow retains this through the conviction) a year is enough.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 12:25:39 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 17, 2018, 12:10:46 amAFAIK in the NL there is a fixed compensation for each you spend in prison when it turns out an error has been made.QuoteWe have such a system here. Dangerous criminals end up in a psychiatric hospital after serving in prison and depending on what they did only a judge can decide whether the criminal can be released or not. In less severe cases a doctor can recommend to release (or not).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 12:42:18 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 17, 2018, 12:10:46 amA problem might be the assumption that most criminals weigh their actions in a rational manner before they engage in them. I understand that engineering approach, but I'm not too sure that's what actually happens. There obviously are some that very deliberately engage in crime, but it seems a lot of people aren't very much aware of their decision making process due to various reasons and shortcomings. I'm not saying they're not responsible for their deeds, but they might do a lot better with some help.From a societal point of view it makes a lot of sense to focus on re-education and reintegration. Warehousing people with hundreds of other not fully functional members of society isn't very likely to make anyone better citizen. Meanwhile, these people are a burden to the working members of society, so getting them back on track and productive again makes sense. Unfortunately this is generally perceived as "being soft", despite the very obvious counter productive results of "being tough on crime". It's easy to politically sell yourself as a hardliner, even if you're effectively making things worse. People should be demanding criminals to be released reformed and not eating up more resources than required, but that's unfortunately not what we see.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 05:05:28 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 17, 2018, 12:42:18 amI am not sure we disagree at all. Deterrence will only work on some. For those all aentences longer than a year are pretty much equal. For the rest who aren't a direct danger to society the long sentences don't do anything other than consume resources.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 07:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 16, 2018, 04:06:18 amWelcome to the USA, where fuck you.And it has gotten significantly worse with the new regime installed in Washington.I wish I could tell my European friends that Trump’s America is an anomaly, but I am not sure.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2018, 01:44:29 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 17, 2018, 05:05:28 amA long sentence still cuts down on the amount of crime they can commit.I think escalating prison sentences make some sense, three strikes is too simplistic and parole only carries over once. You could come up with something better.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2018, 02:29:13 am
content: Quote from: Marco on June 18, 2018, 01:44:29 amThey can't commit crimes, but do live on resources taken from functioning members of society while they could very well be productive themselves. I'm leaving the crimes committed in and from prison out of the discussion here.What makes sense are the sentences that lead to the least repeat offenders first, cost the least resources second and don't cause a long term burden. Society shouldn't accept anything else, especially when politics try to interfere with productive solutions.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2018, 09:38:31 am
content: For that you need to convince people first to let go of their revenge fantasies.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2018, 12:59:32 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 16, 2018, 04:06:18 amAnother oxymoron: "The UNITED States of America." When it comes to compensation of exonerees, it is Disunited Shambles of America.Most exonerees have difficulty getting work because their resumes have a big blank on it, or they are not trusted, or they have few skills. They won't even know how to use a computer or mobile phone. In some states, they are thrown on the trash heap as dead men walking. Some take their own lives, like Kalief Browder did. Remarkably, some forgive the bastards who put them in jail. But some don't...https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=38&v=yf8hEj2qltEhttps://www.theguardian.com/law/2010/nov/04/paddy-hill-birmingham-six-counselling