Vivado HLx Webapck - inc HLS and Embedded Logic Analyzer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 08:57:02 pm
content: Xilinx have just released Vivado HLS edition, that includes the "C to Gates" High Level Synthesis tools, and the Embedded Logic Analyzer.You will need to install the latest version (2015.4) and grab a new license file to enable the features.Mike

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 10:17:38 pm
content: Sounds great. This is their free package?

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 10:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 09, 2015, 10:17:38 pmYep - their "no-cost but you have to have an account to get the license code" version - device support in limited to lower-end 7-series parts.

author: FlyIt!
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 11:34:31 pm
content: QuoteIn combination with the upcoming Spartan-7 series, this is pretty significant.

author: autobot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:20:48 pm
content: Is this c-to-gates useful for designing general logic(cpu's , peripherals) or only dsp ?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 05:34:18 pm
content: There is a long, long history of "c to hardware" products. All the ones I have seen have significant disadvantages. Most only work for a subset of problems written in a very restricted dialect of C. And in that case you might as well write VHDL/Verilog directly, and avoid the hassle that comes with yet another complex and subtle tool.Does anyone have anysolidinformation as to why we should believe this is any more than yet another marketing/sales wet dream? I hope I'm being too pessimistic and would like to be shownwhyI'm wrong, but I've seen similar claims too often in the past.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 05:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on December 09, 2015, 08:57:02 pmDoes this mean their ILA is now free to use with all devices? If true, this is a game changer.Folks don't underestimate the power of such a tool.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 07:03:15 pm
content: Quote from: marshallh on December 11, 2015, 05:37:06 pmIt shows up as a complete node-locked license in the Vivado license manager, so I assume you can debug on any device you can synthesize for (e.g. Artix7 or lower-end Zynq for Webpack).

author: FlyIt!
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 07:21:43 pm
content: QuoteIt's not yet clear if that is true, although I do very much hope it isat leastincluded in the Avnet-bundled HLx versions, if not 'free' (as you say). The best HLx-related info I've found thus far does mention "Vivado Logic Analyzer" and "Debug IP (ILA/VIO/IBERT)".http://www.xilinx.com/products/design-tools/vivado/vivado-webpack.htmlNote that it lists the WebPACK (Device Limited) version, but it's not crystal-clear if that differs from the historical 'free-to-all' WebPACK that anyone can simply download. So it may not support truly *any* device. What is listed at the top of that Xilinx page is:QuoteWhich is good enough for me!It also seems quite likely that the new Spartan-7 devices will also be supported (that's aguess). I just hope that Xilinx doesn't walk this back.QuoteI totally agree.And here is Kevin Morris (of EE Journal) discussing the HLS aspects of the HLx Editions (from Xcell Daily Blog).https://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Xcell-Daily-Blog/EE-Journal-s-Kevin-Morris-writes-some-choice-words-about-high/ba-p/670739edit: Fixed a quote from the Vivado HL WebPACK page

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 08:24:22 pm
content: Quote from: FlyIt! on December 11, 2015, 07:21:43 pmThat isn't a review by someone that has successfully used the product, so should be taken with a pinch of salt.It did, however, contain one amusing comment about other similar tools, viz "EDA companies joked internally that they needed to ship an applications engineer (AE) with every copy of the software, just to keep the customer on track".

author: FlyIt!
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 12:18:58 am
content: Quote from: tggzzzI totally get your point about a 'pinch of salt' with any review, or claims of 'huge productivity increases'. Gotcha. Or aBoulderof salt, as is often the case.However, it is worth noting that this is not a newproduct, it's just newpricing/packaging. Also, it is pretty likely that someone like Kevin Morris has had a chance to try the full range of Vivado High-Level Synthesis (it's been what two, maybe three years that most of it has been available, just at $$$$ pricing).Quote from: tggzzzYup. Nothing is as funny as the truth!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:23:20 am
content: Those points about the repricing/repackaging are a good rebuttal, provided of course that the author has used it over the years.I'm still sceptical about the real productivity gains, except in well-chosen well-defined cases. I would imagine that making incremental parametric changes to an existing design could be such cases. But that raises the question of whether such changes could be achieved by other means.Maybe there have been recent breakthroughs; one can live in hope!

author: FlyIt!
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 03:27:26 am
content: Quote from: tggzzxWe are in violent agreement.I'm just happy it's now free, and therefore more Xilinx devices are viable for hobbyist-level budgets!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 10:18:06 am
content: Quote from: FlyIt! on December 12, 2015, 03:27:26 amYes, particularly with a Spartan-7. The ISE+Spartan vs Vivado+Zynq/Artix/etc decision was displeasing, and this ought to go some way towards removing that cliff.It will be interesting to see whether or not the C-to-gates concept is a help or hindrance for beginners. I'm concerned that it is yet another layer to understand, and that the interactions between layers could become more impenetrable and frustrating. Analogy: for a beginning embedded engineer, Arduino has several advantages over Linux, e.g. Arduino is simpler to learn, you don't have to create/integrate your own device drivers (plus APIs), and there's no scheduling to cause unpleasant surprises.But, as with everything, it is "horses for courses" and there is no single best solution.