My First Ebay return - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 03:44:15 am
content: So I sold a scope on ebay 99 cent starting price, clearly market "sold as-is", only basic testing done as per the photos (waveform both channels), marked as nothing else tested.Moron who bought it claims is fails the internal calibration and wants to return it from overseas.Can't log into stupid ebay because it wants me to log in to the US site and my AU password doesn't seem to work.Stupid.Can you even contest this stuff or do I have to eat international shipping both ways?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 03:54:38 am
content: Turns out youcan'tcontest a return request!These are the only options:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 03:56:48 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 19, 2015, 03:54:08 amIf what they are saying is true (I have no idea as I did not test it as I stated, hence the 99 cent starting price), it's still beside the point, it was sold as untested except for as shown in the photo.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:02:16 am
content: Did the buyer initiate an official return or just send a message? If the buyer just messaged you and if everything in the listing is clear so that an eBay person isn't likely to get the wrong impression, then you can reply to the buyer that the item is as-described and there is no return. Let the buyer file a return claim with eBay and get eBay involved in the dispute. I've never experienced anyone go to that length. However, one of my friends had an unreasonable buyer who was trying to make an illegitimate return for a refund. When my friend refused, that was the end of it.i.e., I'm with wilfred on this case.Suffice it to say, I no longer sell internationally. It's not worth the hassle, potential costs, and unknowns with overseas mail.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:06:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2015, 03:54:38 amOh, so it was an official return request. Well, you can still message them and not choose the other options. See if they'll drop the return request. Otherwise, leaving it hanging would probably get eBay involved.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:08:46 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 19, 2015, 04:05:21 amThat option means very little in practice, unfortunately, if they can make their claim qualify under eBay Buyer Protection.Dave, don't comply with the return and let it go to a Buyer Protection dispute. Then you may be able to make your case to eBay.

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:10:10 am
content: What did you set under the "Return Policy" on this auction? If you selected "No Returns Accepted" you don't have to take it back at all and you certainly don't need to pay for the return shipping even if you do take it back.

author: kmel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:14:58 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2015, 03:44:15 amYour description says: "Passes self tests...". Your second picture shows "Factory calibration: passed".Can the 'internal calibration' fail even if self tests are ok?

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:16:46 am
content: Quote from: kmel on November 19, 2015, 04:14:58 amNow, I'm confused.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:22:24 am
content: Quote from: kwass on November 19, 2015, 04:10:10 amYes, it had no returns accepted, and the ad said:QuoteWith hindsight I should have stated "Passes power-on self tests", I didn't think about doing the channel calibration.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:25:12 am
content: Quote from: kmel on November 19, 2015, 04:14:58 amI have no idea, I never tried it.I presume the buyer means the "self calibration" which does the DC channel offset and other stuff.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:26:08 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on November 19, 2015, 04:08:46 amYep, I'll make him work for it.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:36:10 am
content: Hope it all goes well.I understand why eBay puts so many protections in place for buyers, but sometimes it can make selling really unpleasant.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:40:01 am
content: If he was local then I'd probably just say return it, but international postage is expensive, and I'd have to eat it both ways.Ebay is totally a buyers market, and that's exactly the way they have engineered it.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 04:44:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2015, 04:40:01 amWhy? A lot of sellers who do offer returns clearly state the buyer must pay for return postage. I say fight it!

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 05:08:30 am
content: Did you mark the item as "used", or as "for parts or not working"?There is no such thing as a used, "as-is" item on eBay--unless you mark the item as "for parts or not working".http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/contextual/condition_1.htmlIf "used", you essentially have to take it back. "Used" items have to be in essentially fully working order, and there is no real way to prove you didn't send him a bad item. For any "used" item, the buyer can always claim "significantly not as described" and essentially always win. Seller responsible for shipping both ways.System is entirely slanted towards buyers. Sellers just have to suck it up, and hope they break even in the long run.Dude is probably a scammer that knows the system

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 06:50:50 am
content: Dear Buyer,It's unfortunate to hear that you're unhappy with the purchase.As you're undoubtedly aware purchasing used electronics engineering equipment, the manufacturer only provides one year calibration with this instrument, after that the calibration expires (at least 10 years ago). So therefore I did not advertise this instrument as being in calibration and it clearly does not have a current calibration sticker displayed.Despite that you got it for a very attractive price as you could probably tell from the bidding demand on the item. If you need help with calibrating the instrument please refer to the Tektronix website for more information.If you weren't aware of this prior to purchase I'm sorry your expectations were not met, despite this you still have a functional instrument as I described in the auction.

author: ThisNameIsBlank
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 09:55:31 am
content: Ebay can side with you. I've just had a case go through to review and they agreed with me that the description was clear and unambiguous.Make all your communication with the buyer through the 'reply to buyer' option on the return request rather than by directly messaging them - then it shows up in the case (direct messages dont).Keep all communications firm but polite, dont ignore them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 09:59:54 am
content: Quote from: dadler on November 19, 2015, 05:08:30 amThen how could you possibly sell anything as complex as a scope?Unless you are calibration lab you can't possibly test everything.I got signals on both channels, and it passed it's power-on self tests, so it was basically working, so I put it down as used and sold as-is, not fully tested. Standard practice for almost every bit of used test gear on ebay.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 10:03:15 am
content: I do hope you will make him return it with all security stickers undamaged * cough* in order to prove he has not removed some part he wanted for his own, we know how you like to take it apartbefore anything else......

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 11:25:35 am
content: I just had a very interesting international selling case, where the buyer invoked his protection and wanted to return the item for some weird untrue reasons. I contacted ebay by phone and they immediately refunded the buyer the money and also gave me the money back in my paypal account.So, I got paid, the buyer got his money back and they left it open, if he had to return the package to me.I was very much surprised by this ebay action.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 11:33:07 am
content: Fight it hard all the way.For some people it may not be worth the hassle but at least you can make a video about it in the event it does come back.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 01:00:19 pm
content: BTW in many countries paypal will pay to the buyer for the return shipping.https://www.paypal.com/gr/webapps/mpp/refunded-returns/Don't know if it works for all of the countries but I told my buyer to apply for it and he got the shipping refunded. They paid for it being shipped from Slovenia to Latvia.Edit: apparently this service is valid for Canada and Australia too. USA link from google returns an error message so dunno about that.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 01:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2015, 09:59:54 amSince you are buying and selling for a profit and not just selling the odd item (that you would know the full history of), you cannot have total confidence in the item you can only make a judgement call, which you have done.If the item is not 100% operational as mentioned in Ebay policy it should be listed for parts or not working. You may be aware many people do this even though there is a defect, it works against the seller if the buyer opens a dispute. People also may request the listing be removed for violating Ebays terms and conditions. So again you have to make a judgement call here, but these are the rules.Listing descriptions such as, pulled from a working environment, seems to work fine, worked last time I used it, don't know how to test it, are often used by sellers to mask the fact the item probably is defective.You should know being a buyer yourself that there is a certain amount of risk involved in buying anything that isn't represented as working 100% and then there is risk even if it is listed as working, Ebay or Paypal could ultimately decide against you, so you adjust your bid accordingly.Just like buying things, selling things has a degree of risk, Ebay or Paypal could ultimately decide against you, the seller could change their mind, it could be damaged in shipping, you could be a victim of fraud. On Ebay sales are never really final, you have to take precautions like limiting where you will ship, who can purchase the item, how they pay, and look closely at the winning bidder.See if the buyer is going to escalate it, if they aren't then nothing to worry about except the feedback. If they are going to escalate and you can't afford a blind judgement best to call Ebay and explain the situation. I would push the fact you feel it's as described and not a defect. As if Ebay think it's a defect they will more than likely side with the buyer due to listing it as used (working). Perhaps provide examples of other listings that clearly list they are calibrated and it's not up to you to educate the buyer, cite others you have sold. Hopefully it's resolved in your favor on a technicality.Worse case scenario, you could be without the item and any money you've been paid so I'd be careful using arguments of shipping costs, 99c starting, and everyone does this, instead try to get a feel if Ebay will side with you before you force them to a decision.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 02:14:29 pm
content: A buyer and not a seller be.Ebay decisions are final. Understand that the decision will be made bu someone whose only expertise will be shoes.Everything may hang on a single word they understand and the decision will be made in less than a minute. Working is a grey area. hat is why most equipment sellers call it as is. for parts. You provided too much information for something starting at 99 cents. Saying it passes self test implies too much and paypal gives them six months to complain.What city did they ship to? Maybe someone here will pick it up and resell it for you.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 05:51:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2015, 09:59:54 amYou just have to hope you get a good buyer, and if not--then that the good buyers outnumber the bad ones.I am not saying I agree with the policy, this just happens to be the way that it is. A buyer can always claim SNAD on used items. This option is always available to the buyer of used items, regardless of any "as-is" or "no returns" text in the auction. The "return policy" that you can choose as a seller only applies to "buyer changed their mind" type returns. eBay allows any buyer of a used/new item to return the item if it is "significantly not as described". And the judgment of whether it is significantly not as described is left up to the buyer, which is clearly a one-sided situation.There are people who literally search eBay explicitly for "used" items, especially those with "untested" in the description text, with full intent of scamming the seller. There are threads about this on the eBay forums.At some point, eBay decided that it was more important that the site be considered safe for buyers, and they instituted all sorts of buyer protections. This is one of them. If you list a technical item as "used", you are gambling that your buyer will be honest.This is why I stopped using low-priced auctions/buy-it-now as a seller. I set a high buy-it-now price, and then set the "best offer" flag. This lets me do some (small) research into the buyer before I accept their offer. I look at their feedback history, and try to get a picture of the kind of buyer they are, where in the country they primarily purchase from, feedback left for others. It is certainly not foolproof, but seems to work out better. At least I choose my buyer.

author: klunkerbus
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 06:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: dadler on November 19, 2015, 05:51:49 pmAs a small-time seller on eBay for years, I think the transition to buyer-friendly policies has been an attempt to be more like Amazon. There, buyers can return pretty much anything they want, often using a return label included with the package. The overall eBay policy shifts have driven me away from listing as much as I could.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 08:07:38 pm
content: They do want to be Amazon and get away from one of a kind sales. I have done thousands of sales of small electronic items that I mostly got for free at work. Changes in the last few years have made it even too expensive to even sell the items I got free. They have reduced the number of items that can be listed for free and are trying to get everyone to have a store. I haven't sold anything for more than a year. Can't compete with China.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 10:30:41 pm
content: Also, if a buyer contacts you through eBay because of a problem with an item, it counts as a strike against you. *Even if you solve the problem without getting eBay involved.*If you get enough strikes, your account will be restricted or closed. No questions asked, no exceptions. You think that this wouldn't be an issue for honest sellers, but it is because of dishonest buyers. My mom has been a high volume seller on eBay since 1999. She sells vintage kitchenware from the 1940's and more recently designer purses (Dooney & Bourke and some other top brands).As an example, she recently had a woman buy a purse and then open a return request as "Item Not As Described" claiming the bag was used and had a rip down the side. This was a lie as he purse was brand new, still in the factory cloth wrapping! So my mom went ahead and paid the return postage and, a week later *a* bag (but not *the* bag) arrived back. Sure enough it had a tear in it and it looked like it had been run over by a bus.Apparently the woman already had this particular purse, but had torn it up somehow. So she bought the new bag from my mom, opened the return request and then sent her used bag back. Of course my mom refused a refund. The woman escalated the claim and eBay sided with her! Despite calling eBay and trying to appeal, my mom was never able to recover the money or the original bag. And the woman left her bad feedback. And she got a strike on her account because of the opened issue.She no longer accepts returns. She also had business cards printed up with her email and phone number that she included in the package, which encourages people to contact her directly if they have an issue. She also puts those holographic VOID stickers on the tags, so if someone does have to return an item, she can verify it was actually sold by her! (Once or twice the wrong color purse has been shipped out by mistake, in which case she'll exchange.)Anyway, my point being, by making it a buyer's market, they've made it very easy to scam honest sellers out of time and money. Their dispute system is completely one sided and a joke. I'm pretty sure the eBay employees who handle disputes make the rules up as they go.Sent from my Tablet

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 10:38:13 pm
content: QuoteI don't know how strong consumer protection is in the US (I'm afraid my impression is "not very") but this is impossible in the UK.If you are a business seller then you have to accept returns for any reason within 14 days. I suspect this is actually true even for "For parts or not working" items.Ebay tightened up mostly because they had to in the EU/UK/Aus

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 05:31:56 am
content: In Victoria (Australia):"When buying from a store or seller (including a business online),you have the same legal refund rights with second-hand items as you would with a new item.However, you cannot claim a refund for problems that:- the store or seller told you about- you should have noticed when examining the item- were indicated in photos or the item description on the website."https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/shopping/refunds-and-returns/sales-seconds-factory-outlets-second-hand/second-hand-items-refundsPretty sure it is the same in most states of Australia, how that translates to "For parts or not working" would probably be in that single line. It is for For parts or not working.I really prefer local pick up, this solves sooo many of these problems.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 05:54:36 am
content: I'm a bit confused on which scope they are asking for a return, the one with firmware version 1.17 that shows all the tests passing or the one with version 2.03 that shows the failure and went for less money?In any event, why not accept the return if the buyer pays for the shipping? I don't see anywhere in your listing that you will pay for the shipping on the returned item.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 07:09:28 am
content: Quote from: aargee on November 20, 2015, 05:31:56 amYou wouldn't be able to claim a refund for an item sold as "for parts or not working" because it was faulty but the UK consumer contracts legislation allows return foranyreason within 14 days. It doesn't need to be faulty or not as described - you can simply change your mind.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 07:25:02 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 19, 2015, 10:38:13 pmForcing a business to accept returns for *any* reason isn't consumer protection, it's just plain anti-capitalist.Besides, eBay is an auction site. It's not like you can buy a painting or whatever at an in person auction, decide you don't want it and then return it.Sent from my Tablet

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 07:51:15 am
content: Quote from: timb on November 20, 2015, 07:25:02 amThe principle is that the buyer has the same chance to inspect the goods as they would in a retail store.QuoteIn person auctions are different but on-line auctions were brought into line with on-line sales so have to allow returns.It doesn't apply to private sales so, of course, the temptation is to misrepresent yourself and not tell ebay you are a business.That is illegal but ebay (at present) do not seem to enforce it much or at all - since I play by the rules when selling it angers me quite a bit when I see listings by obvious traders who are not registered as a business.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 08:05:57 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 20, 2015, 07:51:15 amOh, perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the right of return consumer protection laws in the EU applied to physical retail stores; but I guess you just mean they're only applicable to online retailers? That makes a bit more sense, but I still don't completely agree.If the site says it accepts returns, but then tries to back out of it for whatever reason, I think there should be laws and a consumer protection agency of some kind, to make sure they keep their word. However, if a site doesn't want to accept returns, that's their right. (So long as they clearly state it.)The government shouldn't be able to tell them any different. After all, nobody is forcing you to shop there.There are always risks buying something sight-unseen. If you don't like it, don't buy it from a seller/vendor that doesn't offer returns. Period.Sent from my Tablet

author: RJFreeman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 08:33:19 am
content: Quote from: timb on November 19, 2015, 10:30:41 pmHow would Ebay know? do you mean if they message you about something they have purchased?The reason I ask is that I sell circuit boards on Ebay and frequently get questions regarding clarification about components needed etc, generally this feedback is useful in that it lets me know about any clarifications I might need to add to assembly instructions etc. But I wouldn't have thought such clarifications would count as 'complaints' but then that would assume that Ebay are actually reading the messages, and I doubt they have the resources to read all messages, so do simply messages count against you?

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 08:48:30 am
content: Quote from: RJFreeman on November 20, 2015, 08:33:19 amIf a buyer uses the "Ask seller a question" link or the "Contact Seller - Other" option, no, it doesn't count.But basically any other option they use to contact you, be it a return request, a problem with the item, their package hasn't arrived, the item was damaged, etc., will be logged as a negative incident on your account, even if you resolve it without eBay intervention. Even if you satisfy the buyer and they leave you good feedback.The good news is that eBay is changing this policy starting in January. They're overhauling the system to make the scales a bit more even for sellers. They're also reducing fees across the board and *may* allow users to have free stores if you have less than X items. (Basically changing store pricing to a tiered system.)Sent from my Tablet

author: RJFreeman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 10:12:58 am
content: QuoteAh, ok - thanks

author: Radio Tech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 10:29:36 am
content: Ebay protects the buyer now, not the seller.I repair a lot of ham radio equipment for a ebay seller. Seen perfectly good working units sold and come back with parts missing or exchanged.Even had one come back with no transformer.Even with proof not once did ebay reverse the transaction.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 04:49:07 pm
content: Quote from: timb on November 20, 2015, 08:48:30 amMy best one was when a buyer used a return request as a method to send a message requesting whether I had a manual for an old meter that I sold. I didn't have the manual but found it online for him. At no point was he annoyed nor had any intention of returning the item (no manual was promised or even expected, just a query he had), it was all a very pleasant exchange of communications, except he probably clicked the wrong button or something.Of course at the end of the month I have 2.05% defect rate and lose top rated status, tried to explain to ebay but no luck.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 05:16:17 pm
content: I always sell items as "assumed to be working but sold as is" with no returns accepted. I do this just to avoid any return nonsense, I'd rather just accept a lower price for the item than to deal with it. I don't know what I would do if a seller still complained and wanted to return it, probably withdraw all my funds from PayPal, unlink my bank account and fight it.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 05:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on November 20, 2015, 05:54:36 amIt doesn't matter what you say in the listing, it's not currently possible to require the buyer to pay the return shipping for a not as described case.P.S. As a mostly buyer, I have to say that I've been ripped off much less often since the more buyer friendly rules went into effect. I hope the next set of changes doesn't push things too far in the other direction.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 07:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on November 20, 2015, 05:57:05 pmObviously. ebay had figured out some time ago that to maximize their own profit, they need more buyers, not more sellers. There was plenty of crap to be bought, they just needed people to feel all safe and secure so they would click and buy. This has created a seller-hostile environment.Big sellers that sell crazy quantities of stuff can afford to deal with unhappy and fraudulent buyers; they amortize the cost of dealing with them. For one-off sellers, it is a HUGE risk to sell anything.I can remember the good old days (I joined ebay in 1999) when you would buy something,maila money order to the seller, and wait. You had to hope that they didn't make off with your money. You had no recourse if they did. Obviouslythatis a seriously flawed system, but I think ebay has taken it too far in the other direction with basically always siding with a buyer in disputes.Combine the seller's risk with the 10% fees (plus Paypal's cut), and it is hardly worth it any longer.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2015, 09:11:43 am
content: Quote from: macboy on November 20, 2015, 07:46:14 pmMan, I remember those days. I joined in 1997 if I remember right. It was when those Tamagotchi virtual pets first became big in the US. I hit up every store that carried 'em and bought every one I could find. That Christmas I was selling them for upwards of $100 a pop. Not a bad hustle for a 13 year old!I remember going to open a checking account at the bank and the lady not wanting to deal with me, until I showed her two grand in money orders. They still didn't give me a free toaster though.Sent from my Tablet

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:25:36 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on November 20, 2015, 05:16:17 pmI did exactly that in this case. Always put "sold as-is" on my used items, and also selected "No Returns Accepted". Didn't stop him requesting a return though.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:48:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 12:25:36 amSo ebay don't allow you as a commercial seller to refuse returns (and indeed most countries laws don't allow it either, unless a privately sold caveat empor) - but they give you the option in a selection drop down to go and hang yourself?

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 03:37:43 am
content: Link:https://community.ebay.com/t5/Archive-Bidding-Buying/Buyers-wants-a-refund-I-have-a-no-return-policy/qaq-p/9429855Quote

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 07:20:10 am
content: QuoteThe only thing that counts is what it is under the Ebay class rating. If it isusedthen it is assumed to work fully (possible cosmetic horribleness) unless you explicitly say exactly what's wrong with it.Foras-isto mean anything at all, it has to be classed asFor parts or not working.Here, straight from the horses mouth:QuoteYes, it is not exactly whatyouthink is a good description of your stuff, but it is what decides the disputes. The sooner sellers realise that they need to use the right description, the fewer problems they'll create for themselves.A vendor I often buy from sells [iall his stuff as repair/parts, then puts a note in the description to say that the stuff is tested and working, etc, but he is selling as-is. That's the way to do it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 10:54:23 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 23, 2015, 07:20:10 amExcept for the fact that most people will browse for "used" items and not "for parts" items, so you get nearly as good a sale price.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 10:56:44 am
content: So anyway, stupid me clicked on the "Approve return" option to see what was involved, as you were supposed to be able to chose various options first before sending it. But nope, that instantly starts a multi-step return process that is irreversibleAnd yet, it specifically states the seller is fully liable for the return shipping cost.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 11:09:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 10:54:23 amExcept that you can't. The new god awful eBay App does not have an option to search for items 'For parts not working'. It returns 'for parts' items as 'Used' items. The previous version also did not have the 'for parts' option in searches. But at least saved searches worked, if you set them up on the proper website.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 11:10:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 10:54:23 amAgree though I think you meant "not as good a sale price"Some vendors do that but they essentially say "used, works 100%" in the listing. I suspect that from a purely legal perspective this would trump the "for parts" in the condition box but you just know that you'd get a hard time trying to return it if it didn't work so I don't bother unless the price is so low that I don't mind if it doesn't work.As a seller I almost always just accept the return at the buyer's expense, it's going to happen anyway so why put my blood pessure up?I don't sell overseas though - for much this reason.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:14:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 10:54:23 amYes, but them's the rules of the game. You don't get to make those up yourself when you choose to play.I agree with all you say, but that's how it is. I suspect that once upon a time it was logical and fine, then people pushed the boundaries or just didn't bother to read stuff as they signed up, and now popular usage has drifted away from how it used to be. Kind of like how no-one uses red for solder side and blue for component side any more (because latecomers who jumped in fully formed had to choose and chose the 'other' way to 'normal' convention, and everyone that followed copied 'em).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on November 23, 2015, 11:09:24 amI don't know about any phone app, but the website has options for Used and Faulty/For Parts etc.Extremely common to check the Used check box to weed out all the crappy new ads.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:22:55 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 23, 2015, 11:10:00 amYes, that's what I meant.QuoteI usually don't either, and for some stupid reason I did on this one.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 12:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 10:54:23 amThe way I see it, the name of the category is what probably drives a lot of people away. Its description is a bit more fair:" For parts or not working: An item that does not function as intended and is not fully operational. This includes items that are defective in ways that render them difficult to use,items that require service or repair, or items missing essential components. See the seller’s listing for full details"My highlight above is what grants your listing as a "For parts or not working".That is how most sellers here in the US do it, as the power of eBay seems stronger here. Selling something as complex as an oscilloscope is impossible to characterize in a simple few categories, but that is the system. IMHO they should have something similar to Amazon's marketplace (New, Used - Like New, Used - Acceptable, etc.), but the problem then becomes the subjective aspect of the categorization, which would only be fully regulated by the feedback system (which takes time to build).All in all, it is a bummer but unfortunately any business suffers setbacks from time to time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 01:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 23, 2015, 12:34:08 pmCorrect, and that is why if you want the maximum audience for your product for your bit of gear then you have the sell it in the Used category.Categories like scopes and meters are completely dominated by new stuff, so if you are searching for a used bit of gear you are going to tick the Used box. very few will also tick the Faulty box, and it's PITA to tick both anyway because you have to open another dialog box to do it.IME I see very few people selling genuinely otherwise working gear marked as Faulty/Not Working unless they have absolutely no idea what it is.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 01:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 12:20:56 pmFor Parts is my favourite condition for eBay Items, I am pissed of with that app.Anyway, if you get the scope back you can get a video, rant and (attempted) repair out of it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 01:37:26 pm
content: QuoteWhoah! Is your kit faulty? If not, and you want to sell it as 'used', then you must be prepared to sell itasnot faulty, which means it has to work and if it doesn't that's your problem.If you want to sell it as 'probably works fine, but not tested properly and no interest in resolving if it turns out to be duff', which is what I understand you to beactuallyselling as, then it is not 'used but working' and actually 'spare or repairs (but you might be lucky)'.Beginning to fail to see anything but a self-generated problem here, sorry.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 02:45:12 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 23, 2015, 01:37:26 pmStrictly by ebays terms and conditions, probably, but that's the way used gear has been sold on ebaysince the dawn of time.Categories exist for areason, they allow people for search for stuff. Faulty should be forknownfaulty gear. Start putting known or very highly likely working gear (e.g. both traces on a scope work) into the Faulty/Parts category and you are just screwing up the system.Likewise the Used category should be for gear withno known faults.How cananyonesell a piece of used test equipment on ebay and actuallyknowit works 100%? You can't. Not even a formal calibration test house tests every aspect of a product over every range and feature.Advising people to put things in the wrong category just to meet ebays stupid rigid formal return policy rules is not trying to fix the system, it's making it worse.Ebays rules arestupidand do not match up with category realities.They weren't also this bad BTW, the system used to work quite well.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 04:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 02:45:12 pmBut didn't eBay make this change ("used = fully functional") in 2011? Isn't that enough time to adjust?QuoteI have a different opinion, because I was ripped off by sellers much more often under the old system. I definitely buy more because of the protections in the new system (even though it's still not perfect).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 04:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 02:45:12 pmWell, from the more recent and strict eBay rules this is self-inflicted alright, although not with bad intention.Dave, this may have been done for a long time, and it probably worked in more innocent times... However, I am pretty sure these rules exist and are being enforced simply because probably people have bent the rules of reason when describing the items. Modern times seem to follow clauses and text to the "T"... At least here in the US.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 05:29:25 pm
content: I list my stuff as used when I believe it to be working ok. Do I test every last bit of functionality? of course not, that's just not practical even for a simple power supply.Sometimes a customer finds a fault, which may happen due to a dry joint or a failing IC suffering during transport or it may be one I missed before shipping. It happens, it's just another business cost and so long as I can keep that to a very low percentage then I'll live with it.I'll either arrange a partial refund for a minor issue that the customer can live with or provide the customer with a shipping label for the return and then refund or replace.I'm not enamoured with ebay, it's a long way from perfect but it's worthwhile getting to know it's finer points before selling too much expensive stuff on there. Until it stops being the place with the widest customer reach for selling test gear then I'll keep using it.

author: RJFreeman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 11:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 10:54:23 amI dunno, I have a couple of Ebay searches "For parts or not working"?But then maybe I am not most people.....Although it can be amusingthe prices people start 'Parts or Not working' Auctions at, sometimes even more than working items, and then there is that chap who keeps listing used re-cone kits, carefully cut out of supposedly working speakers, and now completely unuseable.Maybe he is hoping there is someone stupid enough out there, but I suspect anyone with who owns the Turbosound Subwoofers that use those drivers, is stupid enough to buy used recone kits....

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 12:12:27 am
content: Wouldnt it be cheaper just to refund him rather than pay for return shipping? I ended up having to do that once where the return shipping cost more than the itemn was worth.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 07:44:02 am
content: Quote from: iampoor on November 24, 2015, 12:12:27 amI suspect that there is a small population of buyers who will seek a "not as described" return hoping that the seller will do exactly that with the result that they wind up with the item for free.There is not much defence against this - don't sell in the categories that are particularly prone to buyer scamming and don't ship anything if the return shipping would be more than a small fraction of the item's value. The latter essentially rules out international sales for the most part as far as I am concerned.Dave said that he does not normally post items overseas - I suspect after this experience he will stick to that much more rigidly!

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 08:02:57 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 24, 2015, 07:44:02 amYep. Honestly itsfartoo easy to do that on Ebay. Its a scam that doesnt take any effort really! I bet this happens to alot of Chinese sellers, any threat of negative feedback is an instant refund it seems like.I am hoping Ebay creates a second used category for itemns that may have issues.My only experiences with EBay and international shipping havew been pretty por. Especially things getting stuck in customs!!!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 09:05:30 am
content: QuoteWhat would you call it?

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 09:10:29 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 24, 2015, 09:05:30 am"Used As-Is"The parts that are guaranteed to work would have to be spelled out.IE: In Dave's case: "Powers on, shows Trace on blah blah blah blah settings".That way sellers wuld be motivated to test (up to a point) and be honest. Of course, people will still selling items with faults...but the price paid should reflect that risk! Like any normal auction!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 09:14:41 am
content: That sounds fair enough. Of course, the prices are likely to reflect that it's as-is and probably has faults where stuff isn't mentioned.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 09:27:29 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 24, 2015, 09:14:41 amExactly. I think it would encourage sellers to be more through in listings however. Alot of Ebay sellers now just seem to not even try and assume the risk that a return might be inevitable. That discourages me from buying, I dont want to go through that hassle!Will my idea ever happen? Probably not, Ebay seems to assume all sellers are naturally dishonest.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 05:09:58 pm
content: Have a contest and let the US winner have it for the cost of shipping.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 06:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 24, 2015, 07:44:02 amConversely I suspect that many sellers state that goods are tested when they have not tested them. Then they refund if it doesn't work.I've had something DOA and another item not as described. Both were refunded and I kept both items.In a situation like this as a buyer I would think a partial refund would be appropriate. Shipping it back internationally is nuts.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 08:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: Seekonk on November 24, 2015, 05:09:58 pmThis is a good idea. No doubt the buyer is playing on the fact that return postage even by the slowest of USPS methods is insanely expensive compared to the rest of the world. Of course this means Dave will have to write it off and let the buyer have the scope and his money back - which he will promptly fix in half an hour.Anyone in the USA who is willing to take it as a return and pay the $10 or so dollars local shipping? Must provide photos of delivery and possible tear down and repair to eevblog too of course!Of course we know this guy is probably a shyster so may just send you a brick in a box so there is some element of risk.

author: SpidersWeb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 12:06:55 am
content: I'm probably too late on this, but from watching lots of youtube ebay scam videos, one thing I did learn was that if you call (not email) ebay and are polite, they can often solve these issues for you immediately.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 05:38:25 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 19, 2015, 04:05:21 am"Returns not accepted" means NOTHING according to E-bay. If it doesn't work 100% or you don't know if it works 100%, you have to categorize it as "For Repair or Parts Only". If you categorize it as "Used" then it MUST work, pure and simple. That's straight out of E-bay's rules.I often list items as "For Repair or Parts Only" simply because I can't test every possible function or because I simply don't want to spent the time to do so. Generally I still get about 60% of the price of a working used unit but with a LOT less work and zero hassle if something turns out to be bad.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 06:08:03 pm
content: So, what did end up happening Dave?

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 08:13:09 pm
content: I figured that this was a good a place as any to share my grief, I came across a Tektronix 1503C time domain reflectometer (TDR) on EBay, local pickup with a buy now for $250 and bidding started at $150, the sellers history was in good order with about 50 transactions so I put a bid in a few hours before the end and got it as there were no other bids.I sent the seller my details and a couple of days later he rang and we arranged a mutually agreeable time to finalise the deal, we spent about an hour on the phone talking and both had worked in similar fields at different times.On the day I went over to his location and he had the TDR set up on the bench it all looked good and I ran through a couple of diagnostic tests and it passed with flying colours, he threw in a few connectors and adaptors and I paid him cash and went on my merry way.I got it home and set it up on the bench with a variety of both spooled and boxed cables and it was well within original specification, initial testing was over an hour and it worked flawlessly, I shut it all down to have dinner after which I intended to continue testing and making comparative tests against our existing TDRs but unfortunately it refused to boot up and I've spent many hours studying the service manual and probing test points and voltages, I've rang him a couple of times without response not so much for a refund which I don't think I'm entitled to anyhow but simply to share my pain.The unit was sold as used, working and fully operational and technically this was all true for a little over an hour, I must admit that I have had a pretty good run in the past buying gear and was probably overdue for a rude awakening, anyhow this thing is wearing out it's welcome on my bench so this one goes in the bad luck bin I'm afraid unless someone needs some spare parts or some teardown pictures, it's a big heavy unit and would cost a packet to send to anyone including Dave.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 08:23:47 pm
content: @Muttley - SUE THE BASTARD!!!!CAN YOU CLAIM DAMAGES???I'M SURE YOU HAD TO TAKE TIME OFF WORK FOR THIS!! AT LEAST A COUPLE DAYS PAY!??!?? OMG!!! AND YOU AND YOUR WIFE HAVE EMOTIONAL DAMAGE THAT NEEDS PRIVATE THERAPY BECAUSE SHE BURNED THE DINNER AND STUFFS!!...oh bugger, you're not from the USA, ah.. never mind, it's just one of those things... Life's rich tapestry, if you will... no big deal

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 06:50:15 am
content: Yes my dear friend I got done like a dinner on that deal but inspired by your comment I went on a mission today to get some back and I managed to do just that.....I ended up with a Fluke 289 FVF complete kit in immaculate condition and listed as new, soft case, magnetic holder, leads, IR cable, CDs and the unopened books all for the price I think I deserved which was $300 AUD so about $216 US, absolutely chuffed and it should turn up early next week unless of course I got done like a dinner once again, pretty safe bet this one.........

author: gilbenl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2015, 05:32:48 am
content: Piss situation but I'd just do the refund and recoup your item. You never know what happens in shipping. If it's good, you can resell.He may never even print the shipping label having hoped that you would just say screw it and refund without return.

author: pullin-gs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2016, 03:13:43 pm
content: Yes, give the dude back his money and be done with it.Saves you a headache and saves you the negative feedback strike you will get from the guy.This happened to me TWICE in december....both times having to do with proxy-international-shipping through ebay. The dudes bought my stuff fair+square, decide that it costs too much to ship on their end, and then they cried like babies and asked for their money back. At least I did not have to pay anything extra in return shipping.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2016, 06:48:51 pm
content: Quote from: pullin-gs on January 02, 2016, 03:13:43 pmI think we have Daves buyer here guys!!

author: pullin-gs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2016, 07:51:30 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 02, 2016, 06:48:51 pmBusted! I've been found out!King Duncan never had a chance!.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2016, 11:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on December 15, 2015, 06:08:03 pmOh, forgot to update this.I got the scope back, and he paid postage to return it. Ebay refunded his money including my postage cost. So basically I'm just out the one way postage cost.It does indeed fail the self cal channel adjustment, but passes the power-on self tests as I showed in the ad.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2016, 01:35:48 am
content: But does it work?