How long 'serious companies' keep their BOM? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 06:04:49 pm
content: Hi All!Got a bit of issue with a vendor.The problem is the following.I have a electronic product which lost a single screw (PH00), pretty tiny (~ dia 2.5mm). Product is now 7 years old.I wrote them if by change still had that screw and if not if they could sent me the type of screw (its pretty small tried all the screws I had but non fit).Now the corporate BS I get is:a) the product is out of warranty so bye bye (sorry, but basically a big go f yourself)b) their design systems are now in gen 3 and they can't access these (BOM) files anymore, rightTBT I find it all a bit hard to understand. Because of this single screw that probably costs like 1 dollar cent, I need to buy a new product (~ 300 USD range) ? Although crucial, the screw only joints two parts (really nothing special about it).I was pretty harsh (after a few emails) since I simply don't believe this. I said their is somewhere a BOM that simply states which screw was used. I bet they didn't even checked their systems for other similar request (I found some on Internet but no answers). Assuming they have something like Altium how much sense does it make that can not dig up the type of screw? Is this really OK/accepetable?Anyone a good tip how to figure out the thread for such a small screw?Looking forward to your views!Thanks!

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 06:15:15 pm
content: Measure the hole diameter. That will give you the thread ID. Find possible threads for that hole, get some thread gauges (or buy a bunch of different screws). Check which one fits. Buy screws with that thread type.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 06:21:33 pm
content: For a couple hundred dollar product that's 7 years old and not currently in production, it wouldn't surprise me at all that design files aren't readily available.I also suspect that if I mailed Panasonic and asked what screws they used in the case of my 7 year old TV set, I'd get some kind of non-answer as well. (comparable cost and age of product).You could buy essentially "all the screws" that are remotely close in thread and figure out what thread pitch is correct and then get the length and head style that you need and you'd be sorted. If the screw fell out in service, are you sure the female threads are still good?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 06:37:08 pm
content: I hate that crap too. If there's no warranty they'll completely dismiss you. I'd say this is probably really common though as product life cycles now are so short and once they make a newer model they don't care about the older models and rather try to sell you the new one. Not really a fan of that. Personally if I made products I'd make a rather long life cycle and probably even offer a BOM, schematics etc. At very least make it available once I do decide to end the product's life so people arn't dead in the water if the product breaks. It's just the right thing to do. It's anti capitalist though, I should be encouraging them to throw it in the landfill and buy the next model.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 07:21:04 pm
content: Thanks all!Just to clarify, its not like the big big companies (LG, Sony, Apple, etc.) it's a company that makes a niche product, makes it very well. Obviously they had a number design iterations over the last years. I get all that. I simply don't understand there CS didn't even bother to contact their own engineers. Because I'm pretty sure they didn't (given the quick response time).In a day and age where everything is digital stored, I don't get you can't not dig up your BOM thats tops 4-5 years old. I could find their email order, which was 7 years and took me 10 seconds. It feels like lack of willing. If it what's the PCB I would have said, sure NP. But FFS its a screw!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 08:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: onesixright on August 30, 2019, 07:21:04 pmIt's possible that the manufacturing was not in house, or at least partly not in house, and as a result they simply don't know and never knew. But the number of companies that provide that level of service, detail and parts availability is now very small and still shrinking. These days it wouldn't even occur to me to ask!

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 30, 2019, 08:18:11 pmWell they indicated they do it in-house, only across the pond. This company is in the UK. Apparently you guys already have some experience with this. In this case it was aheadphone. Now I don't buy every day a headphone of 250+ GBP, and for that money I would expect to use it several years. I'm not complaining about the fact its out of warranty, but thesheer lack of interest to help. It quickly gets dismissed like you would when you buy headphone on AliExpress for 7 USD.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:18:17 pm
content: I am surprised you even got a response. Most of the time they would not even bother responding.The fact is they have no interest in helping you. You might think it would be good brand reputation, etc. and you might be right but they do not see it that way.They have nothing to gain now. Are you willing to pay for their time at a reasonable rate? Or do you expect them to work for you for free? Make them an offer of, say, $100, for their time and maybe you would get a better response. Or maybe not.And maybe it would take quite a while to dig out the information. People come and go. Computer systems come and go. etc.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:23:49 pm
content: They most likely can dig into things and get it for you, but it'll cost them in labor costs most likely as much as their margin on the product was when you bought it, aka the sale to you would have netted them nothing anymore. Nobody wants that, especially small companies.And you're not going to want to pay £100 for a screw either, so even spending time offering you that isn't worth it.No reason to pick on someone for that, it's rather the other way round, if you found someone who did it then for sure praise them (but it's unlikely that will happen often).Quote from: onesixright on August 30, 2019, 06:04:49 pmYes. You got 7 years of use of a presumably good product for $300, that's pretty good. And you can always figure it out / repair it yourself.Nobody lives on stuff that lasts forever or for whom maintenance/repair costs can't be a thing. Ask them if you can send it for repair and they'll likely be happy to quote you $100 for the ordeal.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 01:35:39 am
content: Quote from: onesixright on August 30, 2019, 09:14:18 pmAmusingly enough, I have bought cheap Chinese products (not headphones in particular) and I've had a few sellers very willing to send me small lost/damaged-in-transit parts at their expense. Probably has to do with the fact that they're much closer to the actual factory and might work there/have access to parts, vs. an isolated department of a megacorp.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 07:08:14 am
content: It's a simple question, sure, but it has to go through perhaps five layers of abstraction to reach someone who knows, each layer questioning how much time and responsibility really needs to be spent just so some random can figure out a screw.Say you contact customer support. You get level 1 support. It might be automated. Find the "press 0 for operator" function.Okay, hold for an operator. What's the problem? You have to walk through their entire script. It's not on there. You need to escalate to level 2. Please hold.You need to convince support (if you're even past the scripted tech support yet) to patch you through to someone at the company. Support itself is probably contracted out, no one onsite actually knows about the things they're supporting.Say you manage to convince them to give you the internal support line. Now you have to convince them to put you through to: engineering, production, someone who knows.Say you get the engineering manager. Maybe pretty high up. You ask about $product. If they don't right away tell you it's unsupported (and, how'd you get this number, etc.), you'll have to convince them to connect you to the manager of the team which designed it.Finally, you're nearing the end of your trip. The team manager may be able to look up files on the project -- indeed, if they're still around -- and find what you're looking for. They'll probably have to snoop around some archived directory tree, look for the project, latest rev, output files, production BOM, mechanical assembly. It might not be handy, maybe it's stored in SVN and a particular database needs to be connected, downloaded/updated, and then browsed. Even then, it's likely some internal part number, which maps to a half dozen approved vendor part numbers -- so he's got to open up the part number database, search that, and find what they actually use there.Hopefully, the part is recognizable, or searchable on the internet, or at least has a meaningful description ("M3 x 10mm Philips Pan Head Screw Stainless Steel"?), and you're done.So, after all these trials of convincing one after another to pass you forward, after wasting 2-4 hours of your time and countless hours of people in support, corporate and engineering, then maybe you get some random Taiwanese part which you can't find a datasheet for, and the description is gibberish, and sure the thread size and pitch would be on the mechanical drawing, but you have to connect to another department to find that, and you've already hung up and you forgot to ask for any phone numbers or extensions along the way and....So yeah, it's really not so bad of an option to get, say, a thread gauge set and figure it out yourself.Sometimes these things are surprisingly available -- Apple schematics, drawings and BOMs seem to get leaked on an utterly regular basis, a huge boon to 3rd party repair centers; but this I think is only a consequence of their immense popularity (and partly due to the demand created by Apple themselves refusing to do fairly straightforward repairs), and good luck finding any random schematics or drawings for anything a little less popular and expensive.Or, so, to put it another way, there is definitely reason why board replacement is most common, and why if you want/need to do more (i.e., component level repair), it pays to cultivate the skill of reverse engineering.Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 08:28:27 am
content: depends how crazy cost people are

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 08:29:58 am
content: and you probobly use a screw thread micrometer to measure pitch.. or redrill and retap and use another screwits not hard most likely because.. they sell mechanical watches in droves and there is a giant industry around making small parts that get lost in floor boards.This is probably why the company does not help youyou need to look at eyeglass, watch and precision mechanical instrument screws

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:12:17 am
content: Thanks for the tips all!I got it fixed, although its not the exact same screw (head) the thread seem to fit.For those that seem to feel its "ok policy", I do appreciate your view, but strongly disagree. To be thank-full I got 7 nice years out of it or to say its to costly to dig into this type of issues... Not so sure... The "cost" for this IMO scew-up, is that I will post my (bad) experience in the appropriate communities and let new buyers draw their own conclusions about this brand. Appose to: I could have posted that they did a great job and gave theme credits for going the extra mile. Not sure what would be smarter....Maybe another point for the right to repair...

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:30:21 am
content: Quote from: onesixright on September 02, 2019, 09:12:17 amYou forgot to mention name of the brand and model of the product.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:41:56 am
content: There is a law, which states that design files must be stored for 10 years after the last production of the unit. That is, if you are doing something serious. Like explosions safety.But look. Buy a set of screws and put in the one which fits.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:47:45 am
content: Well it depends who you get on the telephone. In the old days when you got the engineering dept. they would go to a stretch to help you out, but nowadays you are stuck with CS and non technical "get rid off them asap" people that will block you. All probably about time is money.Anyway to tell a good how it also could work story, my icecream machine Magimix switch was toast.It did not switch on anymore so I called Magimix for a replacement switch this was in 2007 I believe.CS did not get me far but sent it in and we diagnose it for €100, repair it for €100+ and sent is back to you.Uh no thank you.Called again with a nonsense highly technical question about Nm torque the motor had untill they got tired with their own stupidiy and put me through with the service department.Yes, I got this service engineer and asked for a replacement switch, he started firing some questions back till he knew I was an EE myself and knew what I was doing and that indeed the switch was the culprit, then came the drawback, what was the age of the machine. I had opened it up an took pictures of everything, it was 1982 so 25 years old. They replaced the design of the switch in the end of the 90s so they could not send me a new switch but they had customer returns in stock that due to high repair costs (probably the compressor) where abandoned. The guy got the switch and sent it to me , I got a bill for the stampSo yes there are still companies that do the right thing however I can understand that due to time and costs many companies no longer do this.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:49:13 am
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 09:30:21 amYou right. I didn't on purpose, because before making them look bad I want to see how you guys look at it.Its aASTRO A40headset (gaming). So that never again.Side note, they simply marked the case SOLVED. Right, if you don't know how to handle it, just click solved. It's a utter disgrace.Let me just reemphasis here (before I get some flak over this). I'm really not trying to nitpick and see if there is something I can pin on them.. I would have been totally fine if something broke that was custom made (headband, earpiece, mixamp, etc.) for this headset. This is for crying out loud a standardisedscrew. If they would gave men the feeling they truly looked into this, but they read '7 years' old, so we play the warranty cardIronically I saw they have a new PS4 version one, and was considering buying one and keep this one as spare. LOL that shipped sailed.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:51:52 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on September 02, 2019, 09:41:56 amExactly, if the battery would blow up they need to fork over all documentation (BTW did pointed that out to them). So its utter bs to say there system are phased out... LMAO.It's about "truly can't help" vs "want to help". And obviously it's the latter.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 10:02:02 am
content: Quote from: onesixright on September 02, 2019, 09:49:13 amAstro gaming wasacquiredby Logitech in 2017. That explains why support were not forthcoming to handle screw(!!!) issue for 7-year old, obsolete product of dissolved company.QuoteYou are making hurricane in a cup for a "problem" which could be easily resolved by virtually any electronics service shop in 10 minutes or so.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 10:16:03 am
content: Quote from: onesixright on September 02, 2019, 09:12:17 amAnd anyone with a bit of common sense will dismiss your request as being unreasonable, so it's not the company that will get a bad rap, it's just you.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 11:00:43 am
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 10:02:02 amThanks for the heads-up, never knew they where sold. Don't you think they could have mentioned that?And you're absolutely right, I did make a much bigger issue out of it than I should. I tried first the ones (screws) I had laying around and since none fit, you get this feeling its some special screw thread...(not an expert myself!)So you then hope they can provide some info on what was used. But their quick response, telling me its out of warranty, that's a big disappointment. I guess at some point it became a matter principle. For me a shop with these type of parts is not around the corner and not all carry assortment of these screws on stock (that adds to the frustration).My post was no to complain about them in public, that's why I didn't mention their name.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 11:26:13 am
content: Quote from: onesixright on September 02, 2019, 11:00:43 amGood. Computer accessories rarely are serviceable unless they are high-end professional devices. This is unfortunate specifics of computer accessory market where margins are slim. Your 300$ headset may fall into "do not fix but replace with new" service category due to prohibitive labor costs. This answers your question as well - in such case there is no spare stock at all.Contrary to PC market, many hand tools manufacturers provide spare parts and at least exploded view with spare parts ID. Example:https://www.boschtoolservice.com/

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 11:51:04 am
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 11:26:13 amExactly, same with Festool,http://ekat.festool.deIronically thing these products are in the same price range and same life expectancy (so it can be done).

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 12:02:28 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on September 02, 2019, 10:16:03 amNot sure what it was that was so "unreasonable", there is nothing unreasonable about asking imo. I think it's unreasonable to dismiss my question, thewaythey did. Its called customerservicefor a reason.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 01:14:16 pm
content: Customer service does not have access to BOMs in any reasonably structure company, as the employee change frequently and may be subcontracted, and the risk of IP leaks far outweigh the benefits.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 02:31:56 pm
content: Quote from: onesixright on September 02, 2019, 12:02:28 pmMost likely company HQ and support people do not even know where to get screws - OEM white box manufacturer source them locally. When you know how computer accessory/component support chain works, you will understand how unreasonable your screw request actually is.Would you be much happier to hear "screw will cost you 0.1$, S&H costs will be somewhere around 50..100$"?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 03:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on September 02, 2019, 10:16:03 amOh no! I would pay attention to these things. I sort products that I might purchase into "disposable" and "serviceable". I'm sometimes willing to pay more--sometimes a LOT more--for things that are serviceable and will be supported or warrantied. OTOH, I may make the entirely reasonable decision to buy a disposable product if the price makes sense. Finding out that the "serviceable" product I paid a premium for actually isn't would be a big disappointment. I'd rather pay less for the known disposable. Knowing which is which ahead of time will certainly affect my purchasing decision and how much I might pay for something.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 03:08:22 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 02:31:56 pmAlright, lets agree to disagreeJust curious. Let's say it would be within warranty, then what? Still unreasonable when ½ the ear comes loose, and I ask for a spare screw?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 03:34:11 pm
content: Quote from: onesixright on September 02, 2019, 03:08:22 pmYou can't get spare parts for "non-serviceable" products. Within warranty they will ask you to contact whoever handles warranty returns/repairs - seller, manufacturer or authorized service provider, bring product in for repair or replacement. BTW which planet are you from?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 06:09:19 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 02:31:56 pmThe decision whether or not to support a product during its lifetime with reasonable availability of spare parts is what differentiates one manufacturer from another. In many cases the availability of spare parts is legally mandated, although this may not apply here to the OPs headphones. I know how supply chains work, more or less. Your assumptions apply to what the OP would likely call a "not serious" company--one that rolls out a completely new product line every six months with a fresh-off-the-boat container of what you call 'white-box manufacturer' product. That's a brand, not a company. Many companies would have that part available and some might even mail it to you no charge--including at least one headset manufacturer I know of that makes professional products that are priced in the vicinity of the OPs product. Availability of a BOM would be the most basic step, an actively maintained parts list would be indicative of a 'serious' company.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 07:40:54 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 02, 2019, 06:09:19 pmPlease name that manufacturer and headset model you have in mind.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 07:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 07:40:54 pmDavid Clark, maker of professional aviation headsets. This model is 30+ years old.https://www.davidclarkcompany.com/product/?ItemNumber=40074G-01The equivalent current model is $300-400 USD, comparable to the "GBP 250+" the OP stated he paid.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:06:04 pm
content: There is no comparison between the "culture" in aviation equipment and in PC gaming peripherals. Aviation stuff is made so as to last a lifetime, but with the latter you'll be laughed at by your friends at your next LAN party when you have a 3 year old peripheral... "gaming" is all about fashion-like status symbol, not durability.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:10:03 pm
content: I just take another screw/bolt from the same product to my local bolt specialist wholesaler (FTG Bolts), and ask them to match it.Usually 2 minutes later, I walk out with a free replacement, or feel guilty and buy 20 pcs for $2 !Worst casei have to hunt around but FTG have now told me what I’m looking for!First world problem?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:29:15 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 02, 2019, 07:53:03 pmThat's not even orange but lemon you are trying to put next to appleI don't doubt that there are ~300$ telephone headsets with spare parts available as well. So what? That is out of context comparison of two way too different products. We are talking about PC/gaming/console peripherals & accessories here, not just headsets. So please try again.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:41:44 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 08:29:15 pmWhat?! We're talking about things you put over your ears so you can better hear and that have a microphone so you can be heard and are in the low three figure price range.Suggesting that they're "two way too different products" to compare doesn't ring particularly true to me. It's not like David Clark is selling in significantly higher volume (might even be lower) or has cheaper raw materials.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:13:51 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 02, 2019, 08:41:44 pmIt's not about "you put it over your ears". It's about completely different market with completely different product lifetime & service rules/expectations. You can't compare service parts availability between aviation and home computing. It is absurd to do so.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 08:29:15 pmI think this discussion is about manufacturers, not products. Clearly (at least to me) David Clark is a 'serious' manufacturer that supports their products and this makes me likely to consider buying their product even at a premium price. The other brand is no longer 'serious', even if they once were, and don't want to invest any effort in supporting their product. To me this indicates that they know that their product is not worth supporting long-term for whatever reason or they lack the means to do so and thus I would be less likely to buy their product unless I got it cheaply enough to not worry about its lifetime beyond the warranty. The type or classification of the product doesn't affect my logic much, and in this case I see no reason to give the 'nonserious' company a pass on judgment just because of the intended use.When it comes to PCs and related stuff, I often buy fairly good stuff on closeout right after it becomes last years model and I don't really expect much support. Spare screws aren't really an issue with PC equipment, it is the availability of patches and updated drivers. Serious companies that are still in business may have products from the XP era that work with Windows 10, with patched software and updated drivers as necessary. Those companies are more likely to get my dollars.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:25:05 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 09:13:51 pmOf course you can compare the two. We're doing just that. The fact that two things are different doesn't prevent comparisons--in fact it invites them. It might be absurd to have the same expectations of both, but if things are the way you seem to think, our comparison and my logic will simply lead to the conclusion that most PCaccessorycompanies fall into the 'non-serious' category and that they mostly peddle glorified cheap trash that will quickly become obsolete and that they won't support. Of course, some of us realized that long ago. I'm sure there are exceptions, companies that make things that last and are supported, and if I find them, I might be willing to pay a premium price for them. Otherwise I want a deal. This applies equally to computer stuff, office furniture, kitchen appliances and shop tools.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 02, 2019, 09:15:11 pmBoeing and Airbus are serious manufacturers but those who manufacture toy planes are not. Don't you see whole absurdity of spare parts availability comparison between aviation and gaming headsets?In case you did not know - there are strict maintenance and service rules for aviation products, there are none for gaming products. How can you compare spare parts availability of two?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:44:27 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 09:29:10 pmReally? I did not know that. Could you provide a citation or reference with respect to headsets?I've owned airplanes for 20 years and flown with David Clark headsets for a substantial fraction of that, including flying with a DIY-modified headset (to add ANR). To my knowledge, there are no maintenance and service rules for these aviation accessories (they would be expressed as "Instructions for Continued Airworthiness" and I neither recall seeing any nor did a brief Google search turn any up).If you have a citation for it, I'd love to read it.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:47:28 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 02, 2019, 09:25:05 pmYou pretty much nailed it. Just one note: market dictates actions of those PCaccessorycompanies. If there would be huge demand of spare parts - companies would offer them. I think OP was unlucky with the fact that original manufacturer was dissolved by Logitech. Original company would give much better support or even screw in the envelope.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:54:51 pm
content: FYI, there's also an entire company built around adding a mic with aircraft interface to consumer headphones:https://uflymike.com/

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 10:00:43 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 02, 2019, 09:44:27 pmYes, bad wording. Not every component of airplane have maintenance schedule. You *are* nitpicking. Service culture/requirements of airplanes and their componentsin generaldiffer from PC/gaming accessories. Hopefully you can't deny that.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 10:13:19 pm
content: I don't deny that. You also presumably don't deny that they don't apply to headsets, which seems to be the basis upon which you've argued that aviation things that you put over your ears and talk into aretotally different from and not even comparable toPC accessories you put over your ears and talk into.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 10:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 02, 2019, 10:13:19 pmAviation maintenance schedule don't apply to headsets - agreed. Yet owner of the plane could expect that headset have similar spare part availability as other parts of the plane. At least headset manufacturer with good spare part availability have better chances in the *aviation* market. Spare part availability is far from priority in the gaming market. Are we set now?My main argument was:Quote from: ogden on September 02, 2019, 09:13:51 pm

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 02:50:45 am
content: Amusingly, the "gaming" headset I have at home (for listening, dictation, and voice calls) is the Beyerdynamic MMX300, which is in fact Beyerdynamic’s consumer adaptation of its now-defunctline of aviation headsets. And yes, they sell spare screws! :p