how does one stop a bogus or misguided kickstarter campaign? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SteveLy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 11:41:58 am
content: I'm asking about this (see below), which as a physicist I know is either bogus or misguided or both. One of the campaign organisers posted about it on my fave amateur astronomy websiteIceInSpace:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/20-17-moonwalker-the-boots-that-redefy-gravity--5#/It's total nonsense but people are getting sucked in. I hate seeing this sort of thing.

author: Xenoamor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 11:57:55 am
content: It even says on their timeline they've only done market research

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 01:19:07 pm
content: This is not their first go at it eitherSeehttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/20-16-moonwalker-the-shoes-that-defy-gravity/

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 01:23:05 pm
content: Sadly it will be an endlessly laborious job trying to stop an IGG campaign. You can report it, you can donate $1 to allow you to comment but soon you'll get banned. The best thing you can do is blog about it, post YouTube videos and just make your criticism and skepticism leave a big enough footprint so you show up in Google searches. Use scientific arguments and people may listen.One day after much frustration you will come to realize that people who want to throw their money away on garbage will do so despite any arguments, no matter how solid, against it. Then you become another passive observer laughing at the suckers. You know at the end of the day it is a first world problem and if you have money to spend on IGG moon shoes I don't think $100 down the drain is going to make much of a difference to the suckered backers. It is a very inexpensive lesson to them.

author: SteveLy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 02:27:00 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 14, 2016, 12:27:31 pmPrecise question is the title of this thread. I vaguely recall someone mentioning in one of their vids (I think it was Dave/EEVblog but I'm not 100% sure) how a crowd-funding site pulled the plug on someone because they had complaints that the claims of the fundraiser were fraudulent. So I am wondering if it is possible to make a complaint that will achieve similar results. I had a brief look at the kickstarter site but found nothing. (But I guess because they make money through the scammers they have no motivation to clamp down on them.)As to what's wrong with the campaign: it makes claims that are physically not possible. People are paying for a bogus product and/or something they are not going to receive. I notice that the thread on the astronomy site I linked in the OP has already been deleted by moderators.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 02:42:13 pm
content: Quote from: SteveLy on June 14, 2016, 11:41:58 amJust walk away and forget about it!!! There are enough idiots out there that you'll never convince.... already got $15K of their goal....

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 06:04:27 pm
content: I don't see the problem? Beside the usual marketing BS and the super ugly design, the product is totally technically feasible. For the gravity part, you'd simply feel "lighter" because they probably offer excellent shock absorption and a much better force distribution then "normal" shoes. Also for things like "jumping on the moon", due to the repelling magnets acting like springs, jumping would definitely feel much different than with normal shoes. So, eh, nothing obviously wrong with that campaign.But still, nothing's better than actually experiencing real microgravity.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 06:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: StuUK on June 14, 2016, 02:42:13 pmYeah I agree. It's not worth your time and effort.... seriously. Imagine the energy you are spending on it. Personally, I find more satisfaction in watching things "run their natural course" purely for the entertainment value.Usually it goes something like this:1. campaign launches, viral promotion companies paid2. lots of media attention, quotes and logos "as seen on..." all over the place3. people start to chip in and it gets momentum4. skeptics, critics, etc... start to blog opposing views debunking product, forum threads begin5. we all participate in forums, talk about how stupid people are to back an impossible product6. product gets funded! sometimes many times the goal!7. rest of the world forgets about campaign except backers... since no more paid viral media promoters8. forum members watch campaign progress slowly over 1-2 years9. backers start to realize they were "bamboozled" and a chorus of complaints floods campaign comments10. creators keep pushing date back and showing various "prototypes" and trying to keep the flood of angry backers from completely revolting11. at some point, creators disappear, leaving backers wondering what happened... no updates12. backers stand around waiting and waiting and waiting, still clinging to some thread of hope that their Star Trek fantasy product will arrive13. skeptics, critics and various forums cheer and rejoice in the "I told you so" attitude14. backers of project swear they will never back another crowd-funded project again.... and the cycle continues....Sit back and enjoy the show!

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 08:24:09 pm
content: Quote from: SteveLy on June 14, 2016, 02:27:00 pmMake a bunch of very well done media pieces explaining how and why the campaign is a scam, get lucky for large numbers of people to come across it and be convinced, so that they will bombard the platform and media outlets with it... the "brute force" method that ends in nearly everything and everybody talking about a campaign is about it being a scam seems like the only solution.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2016, 05:01:48 am
content: I don't see anything bogus, misleading or fraudulent with that product. Don't get me wrong; It's incredibly stupid, but not fraudulent. Magnets large enough to allow for a repulsive force with the weight of a human is going to be rather bulky and God help you scrape off the inevitable metal debris you'll pick up.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2016, 04:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on June 15, 2016, 05:01:48 amThat's actually wrong. Didn't do the math, but I've got some similar sized magnets as in their pictures and can't press them fully together with my hands. Lets assume that I can only push something like 5 kilograms on them, when you use over 15 of them in one shoe, that's more than enough to withstand most shock loads that a shoe can expect. Especially when there is some additional damping, which I'd expect.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2016, 07:26:12 pm
content: A 50x50x25mm magnet can apparently hold 100kg... so push away the same (double when using 2 I guess).https://www.supermagnete.ch/eng/block-magnets-neodymium/block-magnet-50.8mm-x-50.8mm-x-25.4mm-neodymium-n40-nickel-plated_Q-51-51-25-N

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2016, 08:02:31 pm
content: My point is that a bunch of magnets in the sole of your shoes will not be very comfortable. It will be like stepping on rocks. Remember, any downward force will also result in an upward force. As the magnets get close, it will be very apparent that they are there.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 01:15:23 am
content: Quote from: edy on June 14, 2016, 06:58:36 pmyes it's funny how history repeats when it comes to crowd source fundingcheers

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 02:18:43 am
content: Crowdfunding - An excellent and righteous idea - jumped upon by profiteers and human dregs. The creaters could minimize a lot of the "fraud", but it's notin their interests (as many have pointed out). Maybe, if there is enough negative feedback, it may be "fixed", certainly won't without it..

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 09:46:30 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on June 15, 2016, 08:02:31 pmNot really. Sure there is an upward force, otherwise you'd fall through your shoes... But the force is ideally evenly distributed over the whole sole, so you don't have any punctual forces on your foot. Also remember that magnets are not springs, but magnets. When you align a few of them by their sides, the magnetic field will probably spread around the whole group, so that they basically become one big, flat magnet.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 11:42:41 pm
content: HiThere are a wide range of these funding sites. Some have tighter restrictions than others. None of them are what I would call first rate when it comes to managing what shows up. All are totally useless in terms of protecting people from outright fraud. Eventually (possibly a few decades from now) things will shake out a bit and "name brands" will indeed emerge. That will only happen after some very dramatic and well publicized failures. The $20K to $40K in this case ... not going to make any waves at all.What *could* one do?You could start a web site / blog that rates a *lot* of these projects in terms of practicality. Going after them one at a time is pointless. There are simply to many of them. They come out of a fire hose, you need a counter that is equally broad scope.Bob

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2016, 12:39:58 am
content: They didn't even ship the previous campaign that got funded?And they are starting another one with a new variant?

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2016, 05:08:55 am
content: I've mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again now. I have an idea (but just not the time or technical expertise) to create a discussion site which "parallels" the most popular crowd-funding sites but allows OPEN AND FREE DISCUSSION to stimulate honest criticism about campaigns. It would go something like this:If IGG has a campaign URL like this:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/20-17-moonwalker-the-boots-that-redefy-gravity--5#/Then my discussion site called ING (IndieNOgo) would have a parallel URL formatted like this:https://www.indieNOgo.com/projects/20-17-moonwalker-the-boots-that-redefy-gravity--5#/The ING (IndieNoGo) site would work on a user-submission basis. Almost like REDDIT. Someone would "submit" the link of an IGG campaign that they feel is a scam or that they wish to start a discussion thread about. They enter the IGG URL, the IndieNoGo site would AUTOMATICALLY verify that the URL is indeed a real IGG campaign and then "scrape" some content from the IGG site to format a basic page, and then allow a comment thread to exist.The "home page" of IndieNoGo would be like a CLONE of the IndieGoGo page, contain thumbnails of recently submitted campaigns and could also allow for categorization, exactly like IGG.Looks like someone already registered the URL so I hope it is coming.... Last time I had announced this idea, that domain was available. Maybe it is someone on this forum. I hope they are and will do something like that I mention.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2016, 06:16:24 am
content: Anyone doing that will have to make sure they have rock solid legal backing and be ready for a shitstorm...

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2016, 11:54:46 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on June 17, 2016, 06:16:24 amHiI believe that if you put the site in the right country, and were careful about a few things (yes talk to a lawyer) you could do it without a lot of trouble. There are review sites for all sorts of stuff out there. They don't all go with the "100% positive review" format. For that matter there is a site (that we all know and love)that which been known to debunk a few stupid ideas. Dave still seems to be around doing videos.Bob

author: Xenoamor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 12:11:18 pm
content: You could literally make a prototype out of bits of wood.I find it insulting they haven't it's clear they're just a PR team