Boycott PCBWay (and all other companies that spam the forums...) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:33:15 am
content: ...Until they stop spamming the forum!Spamming a forum to promote your business doesn't look very good. I dont think I would trust a company that was that desperate for customers.Unless PCBWay just happens to have alot of people SO happy with their company that they sign up, an only post about them.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:41:56 am
content: They do encourage spam, for sure. They also have the lowest prices.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:49:13 am
content: i wonder if those "latest orders" that update every second and customer review are real

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 07:54:43 am
content: Good initiative.There are different methods to get media/internet coverage/attention.Like giving good service, or plan decent actions.But, openminded, positive and constructive as we all are,let's all post a link to their competition too here,the companies that deliver good service and have decent publicity behavour.:-)

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 08:58:28 am
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on February 29, 2016, 07:49:13 amIf they are, I don't want my company's info posted in public.Quote from: Galenbo on February 29, 2016, 07:54:43 amI like Elecrow.comQuote from: ataradov on February 29, 2016, 07:41:56 amI have not looked at quotes for larger boards, but they seem to be in line with most of the other Chinese guys for 10x10cm boards.

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 09:54:06 am
content: lol, Onagofly is already going down the drain...

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 08:10:56 pm
content: Quote from: crispy_tofu on February 29, 2016, 09:54:06 amWere they spamming the forum? Might have missed those posts. :p

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 08:21:10 pm
content: Quote from: iampoor on February 29, 2016, 08:10:56 pmYeah, some super annoying "FCC bans drones" copy-paste with a link to their site

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 08:30:48 pm
content: Dave had some mighty angry tweets about them too, even mentioning those magic C&D letters ...It is most likely another scam - pumping up buzz, getting the most money they can get and then disappearing.

author: tjeulink
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 09:03:59 am
content: is there a list of companies that spam this forum?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2016, 09:06:16 am
content: Quote from: tjeulink on March 01, 2016, 09:03:59 amThere are not that many, actually. Two already mentioned is something that is persistent over time. Well, drone people are probably gone now.

author: djQUAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 11:24:41 am
content: I get regular spam emails from PCB manufacturers a few times a month. Anyone get these too?I get them regularly from TFCircuit and Evergreen PCB,And no, I never contacted them. Not once, not even a reply. I only use PCBcart as it is convenient for me. They probably got my email from my website.I vaguely recall getting some from PCBway too but they all head to the junk folder. No unsubscribe link too.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 11:33:18 am
content: Quote from: Galenbo on February 29, 2016, 07:54:43 amI'll tell you soon...12x15cm panel of 3 boardsI couldn't reach PCBCART (my regular - DNS OK, server not resopnding)- so I decided to give PCBWAY a try.Fingers crossed. Prices are very decent.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 11:34:38 am
content: Having ordered some PCBs from PCBWay just two days ago, I think I know where the problem lies.They give store credit to their customers for praising them on other websites around the internet. EEVblog, being quite a popular site among electronics enthusiasts, is naturally going to get a lot of the crap.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 12:22:01 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 29, 2016, 07:41:56 amAnd an excellent rush service. As good as the PCB manufacturer next door but easier, faster (shipping included) and much cheaper. We try to order the most possible in Belgium but for PCBs, the difference is ridiculous.Yeah the forum spam is annoying, report it. But the service is excellent.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 03:31:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 25, 2016, 03:28:08 amBecause you will be annoying everyone and your post will be reported to moderators for deletion.Their quality is typical of virtually any Chinese manufacturer, there is no need for 10000 reviews saying the same.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 03:40:29 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 25, 2016, 03:36:41 amYou don't get the point. They want spam effect, they don't need a section where their spam can easily be ignored. That's not what they giving discounts for.I don't know how this works exactly, but I assume you need to submit an URL of the post you've created. I'm pretty sure that you will not get the credit for post in a thread designed for dumping that spam, otherwise it would be a perfect way out. I'd give them a 1000 reviews in places where people won't see them

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 03:53:02 am
content: I would not mind seeing an image of what a given thickness silkscreen looks like, so far i have been very happy with seed, but the 4 layer prices have been tempting me,

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 04:10:22 am
content: Oh c'mon guys.PCBWay are paying their way on the EEVblog website for banner advertising.Daves call not ours to their ongoing forum participation.ATM their banner is across the top of the main EEVblog website.http://www.eevblog.com/

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 04:18:14 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 25, 2016, 03:28:08 amWell, I wouldnt personally trust any review when money is involved. Even "controversy" (ie a bad review) is good for "brand awareness". Yes, this is how modern marketing types think personal disclaimer: I am involved in marketing and engineering, so its hard to not become cynical of marketing tricks. South Park has a great critique of this.)Quote from: tautech on June 25, 2016, 04:10:22 amI dont think they were doing this when I originally posted this thread.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 04:18:45 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 25, 2016, 04:10:22 amBanner is fine. This thread is about their encouragement to create spam posts in exchange for discounts. On all forums, not only this one.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 04:29:04 am
content: Quote from: iampoor on June 25, 2016, 04:18:14 amOk see that now, they were also discussed in this thread that only supporters or those with 1k posts or more can see:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/supporters-lounge/banners/Daves comment:Quote

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 05:11:05 am
content: Let us know how the boards go.I might try them in a few weeks.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 05:15:29 am
content: So - don't spam.Ignore those posts that do.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 08:07:19 am
content: Should be ok to create a (Single/Common/Stickied)thread on experiences. That would let people get their $30 kick back, and confine the posts to proper audience.

author: 128er
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 10:28:23 am
content: Ordered from PCBWay only one time. And the service was good, very fast and with a good result. Only my personal experience, but I would order again from PCBWay.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 10:55:07 am
content: I've added PCBWay to my spam list, and will never use their company. I never buy from companies that use spam as a business model.Their service is not much different to all the other cheap Chinese companies, and they also have similar quality issues, but the fact they pay for people to spam positive reviews means you can pretty much ignore any of the positive messages about them.Obviously, if all companies paid customers to spam, we would be inundated with spam and be none the wiser as to which company provide a better service.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 12:00:20 pm
content: So how do they compare to the make your own PCBs that use laser printer, iron and some chemicals for a dual layer 10cmx10cm PCB? lets talk cost and quality for this case. lets also assume you already have a laser printer and iron but no chemicals for starters (would be typical for many).

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 02:54:31 pm
content: I used to etch my own PCBs and see no reason to continue doing that anymore. It's just a massive pain in the ass and the boards never look as good as their professionally fabricated counterparts. Not to mention having to solder jumper wires in the via holes - freaking nightmare.The quality of the boards from pcbway is good, my only complaint would be that they used a dull drill bit for the NPTH. The alignment and quality of solder mask and silkscreen I would say are better than some other fabs (*cough*elecrow*cough*).I paid extra for DHL shipping and the boards were delivered ridiculously fast. I ordered in the morning hours of a Saturday, the boards were fabricated over the weekend, got sent out on Monday and were delivered on Wednesday morning.Not quite as cheap as some other fabs, but if you can't wait 3 weeks, it might be worth paying extra.Pics below. Don't bother following the URL, I haven't gotten around to setting up my website yet.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 10:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on June 25, 2016, 12:00:20 pmThe "chemicals" cost about 15EUR/kg (ferric chloride) from Amazon. Deionised/distilled water is available in any supermarket for peanuts but you can even use normal tap water, it is not very critical. Both will last you pretty much forever, for many boards. PCB copperclads can be had cheaply from eBay, 10x12cm 5 pieces of two-sided FR4 for about 6 eur. You can for sure find even cheaper, especially if you buy larger sizes and in quantity. If there is an electronics factory nearby, it is often possible to get off-cuts for next to nothing. That's basically all you need to start making your own boards using toner transfer, assuming you have some basics like some tupperware to do the etching in, drill to drill the holes, etc.The quality very much depends on the individual skill, complexity of the board and how much time and effort you put into it. There are people who are doing even through plated vias, solder mask and silkscreen at home. Crazy? Sure. But certainly possible.The quality from a board house is, of course, much better. The price - depends. If you need only a single board and you are paying for 10 which is the minimum order and shipping on top, adding up to some $20-$30 at the cheapest PCB houses, the homemade board could still be attractive. Anyhow, with homemade boards it is not really about the price unless you are making large and sparsely populated boards (e.g. tube amps!) which would cost fortune if you have them made.The main reason why people are making their own boards at home is that if I need a one off breakout for something or a small board to test something out, I can have it on my bench in perhaps an hour and I can continue working on my project. If I have to order it from a board house, I am looking at at least two weeks turnaround time unless I pay through the nose - and even then it is three days or so minimum.Of course, if you need more than two layers, very dense boards, boards with traces thinner than about 8-10mils or must have soldermask, then you don't have much choice and have to farm the board production out. That's just not sensible to make at home, IMO.Quote from: Dave on June 25, 2016, 02:54:31 pmDepends on the board, but in many cases the PCB can be designed to minimize this hassle - e.g. using leads of through-hole parts as those jumpers, minimizing the number of vias, etc. I am trying to make as much as I can single sided, even if it means I will have to put in some jumpers on the other side. Saves a lot of trouble. It certainly isn't always possible, but I wouldn't see this issue as a major hurdle, especially not for people who are just starting out and are not likely to build super dense or layout critical boards with hundreds of vias at home.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 11:32:34 pm
content: Has anyone heard of the PCB printers like Voltera? It doesnt seem like they use copper though. Is there anyone who could shed some light on them?If shipping cost from PCB houses are considerable perhaps for large quantities a solution like voltera might be better?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2016, 11:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on June 25, 2016, 11:32:34 pmFor larger quantities the only thing it can do is suck. Who needs lots of crappy and expensive boards?

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 12:43:29 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on June 25, 2016, 11:32:34 pmA joke. The resistivity of the conductive material is terrible, printing resolution abysmal, the traces aren't masked and I'd be willing to bet that the conductive ink cartridges cost a fortune.If you're going to go down the road of etching your own PCBs, avoid the ferric chloride and use hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide instead. It etches much faster and you don't need to heat the solution.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 12:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on June 26, 2016, 12:43:29 amThis has been debated ad nauseam in another thread(s), along with the explanation why the acid+peroxide is universally terrible idea. The only thing going for it is that the acid is cheap (the peroxide can get expensive fast because only diluted 3% one is generally available = you will need a lot of it) and easy to obtain in most drugstores, the other chemicals you need to order online. Otherwise it has only downsides - corrosive fumes during storage, nasty fumes during etching, non-reusable etchant (so a lot of nasty waste to dispose of), very easy to over-etch traces ...You do not need to heat ferric chloride - you are confusing that with ammonium persulphate. That one doesn't etch (or extremely slowly) unless you have a heated tank. Ferric chloride works just fine and quickly even at ambient temperature.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 02:25:24 pm
content: Well, I'm aware that it depends on where you are, how difficult it is to obtain certain chemicals, but here they are quite cheap.A litre of 31% HCl costs 1,29€ in the hardware store and a litre of 30% H2O2is less than 4€ in the local pharmacy (they do ask you what you are going to use it for and write down your personal information - probably because mixing the stuff with acetone makes a very potent and volatile explosive).Granted, the chlorine fumes aren't the most pleasant thing to inhale, so doing this in a well ventilated area is a must (preferably outside). Both ferric chloride and muriatic+peroxide are troublesome to dispose, because of the copper salts that are produced during etching. Bear in mind that I'm no chemist, so I'd appreciate it if someone with more knowledge on this are could chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.While it isn't a necessity to heat up the ferric chloride to etch, it does make the etching process quicker, because at room temperature it is ridiculously slow (10+ minutes to etch a board). You can quite easily etch a PCB in 2 minutes with great results in muriatic+peroxide. You can also regulate the speed of the process by adding more peroxide to speed it up or dilute the solution with some water to slow it down.Etching away too much copper is just as likely with either etchant, timing and experience come into play here.Contrary to popular belief, the solutionisreusable. You just need to put it in a container that prevents pressure buildup. Empty peroxide bottles are ideal for this because they have lids with valves that allow gas to escape (just don't let the bottle tip over). The next time you want to etch, you just need to add a splash of fresh peroxide to the mix and you're ready to go.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 06:34:43 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on June 26, 2016, 02:25:24 pmNo and no. You never ever need to dispose FeCl because you can regenerate it by adding a little bit of HCl. Also FeCl isn't slow if you have a spray etching machine. Every now and then I etch my own boards and the etching takes 2 or 3 minutes in my spray etching machine which is a fish tank with a lid with a spray-etching motor (bought complete/used for 15 euro).http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Etchinator-low-cost-spray-etcher/Still I very much prefer to have boards made and I use my own etching setup only when I'm really in a hurry.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2016, 08:25:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 26, 2016, 06:34:43 pmIt is sufficient to simply agitate the solution during etching every once in a while or bubble air through the solution using a simple aquarium pump. Spray machine is better, but not really needed.Quote from: Dave on June 26, 2016, 02:25:24 pmThen you are lucky - here you will not get anything else but a 3% solution in a small bottle.Quote from: Dave on June 26, 2016, 02:25:24 pmThose are the fumes you need the least to worry about. Do it outside and problem solved. Much worse are the fumes the acid will release over time - they reliably corrode everything metallic several meters away over time, even if you have the acid in an original bottle. For me this was one of the reasons why I have quickly abandoned this method, because I don't have space (=ventilated lab cabinet) where I could safely store the concentrated acid.Quote from: Dave on June 26, 2016, 02:25:24 pmThis "super fast" etching is a wonderful way how to over-etch your boards, with the solution eating away the copper under the resist as well (from the sides). Etching too much copper with something like a ferric chloride or persulfate is fairly difficult, because you can see when the copper is gone in places where you don't want it and have plenty of time to take the board out and rinse it. With the acid+peroxide solution it goes so fast that before you manage to rinse the board and stop the reaction it could be too late. This is especially true if you are using the concentrated 30% peroxide and concentrated 30% acid - then the reaction is very violent and between trying not to splash and getting the board rinsed you don't have time to spare. That doesn't even consider the safety aspect of the process (splashes, spraying droplets from the exotermic reaction, etc.). Ferric chloride will at best stain things if you let a droplet go where it shouldn't.And anyhow - if 10-15 minutes of etching time is bothering you, maybe find a hobby that doesn't require patience? I will gladly take 15 minutes of no stress unattended start & forget process compared to 2 minutes of fumes, foam and caustic droplets going all over while I have to babysit it to make sure it doesn't destroy my board. You will have to drill & populate the board anyway, the 10 minutes etching time is negligible in the overall scheme of things.Quote from: Dave on June 26, 2016, 02:25:24 pmPeroxide will decompose fairly quickly into oxygen and water, especially in the presence of contaminants and/or light. So you are basically just storing a diluted and contaminated hydrochloric acid.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 12:48:18 am
content: Quote from: janoc on June 26, 2016, 08:25:37 pmI've kept my chemicals in a corner of our basement for years and so far it hasn't given me any trouble. There are metal shelves, bicycles and other metallic stuff in the same room and nothing has corroded. YMMVQuote from: janoc on June 26, 2016, 08:25:37 pmYou're trying to convince me that the method, that I've successfully used many times in the past, doesn't work. I can reliably etch 0.2mm traces any day of the week with this method and it can be done within minutes. Under etching is not a problem. Stopping the etching process isn't a big deal, you can quite easily do it by dunking the board in a tub of water or rinsing it under a tap.I've made the mistake of etching my very first board in a 1:1:1 solution of water, hydrochloric and peroxide. The copper was literally gone in 15 seconds in a vicious reaction with lots of bubbling and fumes. Once you dilute the mix enough, it is really very manageable. Bubbles slowly form on the surface of the copper and gentle agitation of the container gets them to break loose, rise to the surface and allow fresh chemicals to reach the copper.You can quite easily see how much copper there's left while it's etching and when you need to pull it out.Quote from: janoc on June 26, 2016, 08:25:37 pmQuote from: janoc on June 26, 2016, 08:25:37 pmWatch a freaking youtube video if you never bothered to try it yourself.Quote from: janoc on June 26, 2016, 08:25:37 pmGood to know. It still saves you the trouble of having to dispose the etchant every time you need to make a board.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 08:29:43 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on June 27, 2016, 12:48:18 amConsider yourself lucky then. You probably have better ventilation there.Quote from: Dave on June 27, 2016, 12:48:18 amI amnottrying to convince you that it doesn't work. All that I am saying is that it is a terrible way of doing it and that there are better ones, especially for someone who has no experience with etching boards. If it works for you, by all means, keep using it.Quote from: Dave on June 27, 2016, 12:48:18 amI don't need to watch any freaking youtube videos because I have been using that solution myself - and quickly abandoned it. I have also quite a bit of experience in anorganic chemistry and lab work, which you, by your own admission, don't have.Quote from: janoc on June 26, 2016, 08:25:37 pmAnd it is fairly pointless, because you are only creating a larger and larger volume of diluted acid that is not possible to regenerate. If you decide to dispose of it, neutralize it using baking soda until it stops fizzing (be prepared to have a lot of soda at hand!) and then you can dry the slurry and dispose of it at a waste collection point - they usually have some place to collect dangerous/toxic materials.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2016, 08:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 27, 2016, 08:29:43 pmI agree. Decades ago I enquired where I could buy HCl in order to regenerate my FeCl. I started at a chemical company which could sell me a barrel >30% HCl but the man on the telephone quickly reliased I might not have the knowledge to handle this kind of dangerous chemical. He asked whether I had a ventilated storage because an HCl solution continuously vents a bit into the atmosphere and the barrel therefore had an overpressure valve. I then realised that this wasn't the way to go and I have been buying HCl from the DIY shop ever since. BTW I got rid of my etching setup + chemicals while my kids where little.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 02:13:15 am
content: Just receved another shipment from PCBway.. Nothign to complain about.. Service is quick, the boards are exactly what i ordered. No drama..and the price is great.whats not to like?

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2016, 01:43:15 am
content: Well, after looking for a replacement for my usuall supplier of 20+ yrs, and getting mixed (not ideal) results from a couple recommended suppliers from this forum,decided to give these folks a go. These are MY findings -1/ Damn fast. Ordered Fri pm, arrived Wed am. My local guy that is 20 mins from me is 7-8 days (unless I want to pay $500+ surcharge)The shipping was $60 for that speed, and I'll very likely use slower and much cheaper options. It's good to know that I can attain that if needed.2/ Damn cheap. Even with the higher? shipping cost, a run of 30 prototype PCBs was 1/3 the price my last favourite supplier.3/ NO SETUP COSTS! This is awesome! I do 100's PCB designs a year and had to resort to panelising to reduce costs. Setup costs amount to many $1,000s. GONE4/ Quality looks as good as anything I've had to date. PLUS there are options for "better".5/ Not a single problem with sending files, ordering, paying and tracking support. Definitely impressed.6/ I put 3x designs on their max 100x100mm, which I cut up here. No one tried to tell me that it was a multi and charge me extra.Well, got 15 pcbs to get ready for the next run, and NO more panelizing :-) BONUSNote: I DON'T do "get a free gift if you SPAM the forum" cr@p. Adding to an existing thread as 1 users opinion.