Digital multimeters sucks   - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 03:31:23 pm
content: Digital multimeters sucksThis is no more then crap toysI`m going with my analog one for four decadesNo batteriesNo remorse

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 03:35:22 pm
content: Thanks for sharing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 03:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on April 08, 2019, 03:31:23 pmThat is difficult to distinguish from a (poor) troll. Not good.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 03:35:53 pm
content: Thanks for SPAMming.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 03:38:08 pm
content: OP, did you try to install the firmware update? It should fix the issue you are having.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 03:46:50 pm
content: Different tools serve different purposes and understanding how a tool (DMM) works by reading the manual may help. If you can stand dead batteries on ohms, loading of circuits on volts, and low accuracy, an analog meter may serve your limited needs.

author: Cnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 03:54:30 pm
content: Sounds like someone has thrown their a rattle out the pram or should I say DMM.Can an analogue meter survive a metre drop?

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 04:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on April 08, 2019, 03:31:23 pmTurbos suck even more. Nothing but crap ICE use'em. 3-phase induction motors FTW!

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 05:00:06 pm
content: Obviously the OP never uses the resistance ranges then, so a simple battery tester might suffice

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 05:16:12 pm
content: I love retro-electronics, which also means analog multimeters. I recently purchased one in Tokyo's Akihabara district.But other than to use them to null or calibrate a circuit which uses trimpots, really a DMM is a far superior tool.True, their batteries go flat, but they last a looooong time. And most DMMs have an auto-shutoff feature anyways.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 05:36:39 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on April 08, 2019, 05:16:12 pmThe batteries on an analogue meter for the resistance ranges will also go flat in time so where's the difference between an analogue or a DMM in that respect?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 05:53:23 pm
content: Let me guess: you blew one of your DMM puppies with your HV power supplies? Or the mention of batteries indicate you had a major leakage problem?I hope it wasn't either the87V or the 117.

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 05:57:06 pm
content: The funny thing is, I use a Simpson 260 as my "Monitor" on one of my LTZ1000A reference. Turns out my reference is pretty solid according to the Simpson!

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on April 08, 2019, 06:03:31 pmIll put one up when I get home later today.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:32:11 pm
content: Can't measure ohms without batteries! Simpson 260 on R x1 puts out 130mA! Great for finding poor connections.It's the batteries sagging, drifting, keep turning zero adjust. Yuck.Digital multimeters only burned me once- measuring mains voltage and I got good V readings due to leakage currents. An analog multimeter read zero. Would have saved me hours.Low Z voltage is an important feature.

author: luma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:40:58 pm
content: My stupid DMM has misspelled "pluses" and they still haven't released a firmware update

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on April 08, 2019, 05:16:12 pmNot always. Oftenchangesandnoiseare easier to interpret on an analogue meter. Hence life-critical instruments are often have analogue displays, e.g. altimeters, ASI indicators and artificial horzions.If I'm just noodling around a circuit to find gross faults, it is oftenfasterwith an analogue instrument.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:51:17 pm
content: My Simpson 260 Series 6 has two batteries for ohm mode, but one of which is also required if you want the overload protection circuit to work.

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:51:34 pm
content: Perhaps the real issue is the user, not the DMM.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:54:47 pm
content: Multimeters aside, is the OP trying to reduce the information signal-to-noise ratio of the forum again?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 07:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on April 08, 2019, 06:51:17 pmWhich battery are you referring to? 1.5V or 9V. Real 260's use a 22.5V battery

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 07:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: Synthtech on April 08, 2019, 06:54:47 pmMyemphasis

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 07:03:34 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 08, 2019, 07:00:32 pmIt's the 9V. It's right in the schematic you posted. Yeah, this one isn't uber vintage. It was my dad's, though, so has sentimental value, even if it uses batteries I can still buy at the drugstore.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 07:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 08, 2019, 07:01:59 pmEvery forum I've ever been on has thatone poster...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 07:23:35 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on April 08, 2019, 07:18:07 pmThere are a few others here too, but not very many. I'm sure you have your candidates; I'm not going to draw attention to mine.The forum rules are sensible - and are reasonably enforced by the moderators and members.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 07:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on April 08, 2019, 03:31:23 pmAnalog meters with no power source have horribly low input resistance on voltage ranges. Useless on barely sensitive circuits.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 07:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 08, 2019, 07:38:51 pmYes they do, and a good one has a minimum input resistance of 20,000 OPV. But most analogue meters will have a battery for the resistance range only, unless it is an electronic meter.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 07:48:33 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on April 08, 2019, 05:46:28 pmThe reason that you see so many Keithley and HP (aka Keysight aka Agilent) threads here is because their meters (and other equipment) WORKS the way it's supposed to without a lot of IFs, ANDs, BUTs or MAYBEs, unlike a lot of cheapo brand X crap that people are buying from China and some other 2nd rate counties.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 08:41:44 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 08, 2019, 07:48:33 pmI wouldn't consider Sanwa and Hioki "2nd rate counties" (sic) - they are simply not very popular outside of their COO (Japan). Similar case can be done for Gossen and others.BTW, your actual post is pretty ignorant and dismissive of reality, as there are several threads that talk about "lot of cheapo brand X crap" - Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 08:58:20 pm
content: here we goI have a big black couch, we can talk loll i'll take notes on my padop started a rant thread everyone came aboard loll

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 09:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 08, 2019, 07:23:35 pmYep, it works pretty well. I have my own theories about specific kinds of people on forums...but that's neither here nor there.The OP's nonsensical ramblings here and in other threads at the very least makes good entertainment.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 09:08:19 pm
content: It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.They still make analog wrist watches, wall clocks, speedometers. People collect analog oscilloscopes.I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 09:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 08, 2019, 09:08:19 pmWell, there is basically nothing to test for 34401a. Lowest range for AC current is 1A and AC ranges are specified only above 1% of the range, 1-5% has worse spec than above 5% of the range (due to RMS converter characteristic).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 09:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 08, 2019, 09:08:19 pmEven ignoring astroturfing reviews, 99.9% of review videos (and reviews for that matter) are "it arrived on time, I unboxed it, liked the colours, turned it on, it lit up as expected, it is a good device, I'm happy".

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 09:32:53 pm
content: It's was fun putting five DMM's in series measuring mA AC and realizing what worked.I tested a bunch of 34401a's before I realized it's just their design.0.00000 A AC but the three least significant digits are of no use until over ~5-10mA.The ANENG AN8008 also reads zero or low until you give it a few mA. All non-linear.This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.Yes an analog multimeter has a dead spot until you've overcome the rectifier diode drops. It's shown on the dial though.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 09:43:24 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 08, 2019, 09:32:53 pmThat true RMS is not digital but analog (AD636, AD637 and similar), that's the issue. Just take multimeter with low enough AC range or newer 34461A, 34465A, 34470A which do not have this limitation in the bottom of the range because have actual digital true RMS. If you try measuring 1 mA on analog meter set to 1 A range, pointer won't even move.

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 11:12:07 pm
content: Perfect reading every time.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 11:39:52 pm
content: LOL, no one told me to bin the analogue meters when I hopped on the DMM bandwagonso I kept them and still use them alongside the alleged sucky digitalsThe AVOmeter 8 Mk5? is a gold performer coupled to a variac, to verify it's AC performance and if any breaks or bad contact with and without a load attached.FWIW the AVO, and I suspect the Simpson (wish list aka Ebay stalking) and other vintage keepers etc without any batteries can test DC and AC from zero-ish up to 3000 volts, and smile(especially if the meter is tipped upside down)i.e. use both types, even the cheapies in both types work well enough for most tasks, so why stress which one is better ?Trusting and trying to rough it with just one meter is asking for a good headbanging on any taskI have a 'curiosity purchase' cheapie analogue/digital combo kicking around somewhere too (Jaycar brand), so yeah, maybe they are still around under different brand name badge,for those that can't make up theirmind--------------------Has OP advised what brand/model/badge of digital multimeter that sucks is in question here?...and the condition of the batteries, sockets, leads etc

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 11:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 08, 2019, 11:39:52 pmOf course not. Trolls don't give too many details, just enough to keep the mayhem going on...

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 12:17:19 am
content: Told ya, not the first time op did that

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 01:15:08 am
content: Quote from: 001 on April 08, 2019, 03:31:23 pmI used an analog meter for around a decade before buying my first digital meter. The Fluke did not survive as long as my Radio Shack analog meter. The Fluke's batteries also did not last near as long. When I did something stupid, the cost to repair the analog meter was normally free or next to nothing. The Fluke, not so much. Today, I could still get parts to repair my old analog meter if I had it. The Fluke with it's custom ICs, well thanks to eBay, I did actually bring it back to life.Quote from: floobydust on April 08, 2019, 09:08:19 pmThat's true but I can't think of a time it's been a problem for me as I normally will use some external sensor and convert to voltage AC or DC. I would imagine a few people use Dave's amplified shunt for this reason.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 01:27:36 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 09, 2019, 01:15:08 amOr just use meter adequate for the task (which has smaller AC current ranges), note that adequate != expensive. Measuring 1mA on 1A range is not very good to begin with. And especially not smart if you don't read multimeter spec.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 01:36:26 am
content: Quote from: wraper on April 08, 2019, 09:43:24 pmThe Hycon chip has a dedicated DSP section doing true-RMS (AC-coupled, up to 1.5kHz, -3dB 6kHz). It screws up if there is significant DC preset- the A/D clips and (ANENG) firmware does not detect this. Unlike a Simpson 260I have DMM's with the AD637, some allow AC or AC+DC true-RMS.I have purchased 34461A's and love the cooling fan. As if there is a Cray inside, calculating the meaning of life. RPi doesn't need a cooling fan and has good computing power. Then there is the original firmware that Agilent rolled out, the beeper did not work properly. Very difficult to code and test, them beepers. I had other problems with 34461A's and they've let me down too many times.Point is DMM's have to earn my trust now.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 01:47:12 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 08, 2019, 11:44:22 pmOP is from Antarcticaperhaps the digital meter that sucks literally froze in the manigloo/lab ?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 02:20:59 am
content: What a tough crowd.There are companies where standard issue is a Simpson 260 analog multimeter.I was teasing a tech about it, when he told me they have been using them for decades and they are pretty tough and that's what his company provides.They get used a lot out in the field and it seems to be an old school kind of industry that still uses them, as a religion. I think it's that they need low Z and ghost voltage readings made them sour to digital multimeters, or they were using the oddball dB scale.Plus they have spare parts, know how to calibrate etc. instead of shipping them to say Fluke and paying for calibration. I wonder what that costs now for shipping and cal.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 02:26:45 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 09, 2019, 01:36:26 amYou still ignore the fact that your Simpson 260 would be completely useless if put under the same conditions as 34401A (measuring 1 mA at 1 A range).

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 02:38:30 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 08, 2019, 09:08:19 pmI bought a jackhammer and it turns out to be terrible for working on watch mechanisms. I'm going to write this thing a terrible review.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 02:59:09 am
content: I think the OP was having 'Random Topic Starter' withdrawals after only starting two in the last three months. Need to keep their average RTS figures up

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 03:32:58 am
content: Quote from: wraper on April 09, 2019, 01:27:36 amIt's more than adequate to measure sub mA with a little extra hardware. Not a big deal really. In my case, it's not uncommon for me to use the meter with additional hardware anyway. That said, I am guessing that floobydust is just not comfortable to setup and make a measurement like this and just want the meter to directly support it. We all have different skill levels. In that case, buying a more suitable meter makes sense. I agree that reading and understanding the manual is a given.While looking back I am not very impressed with my first Fluke meter, I can't imagine using an analog meter today but we all have different requirements.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 04:09:18 am
content: I just want to measure a few mA AC.The 34401a can't measure a few mA AC on its one and only front-panel range.Through IEEE-488 you can switch in an AC mA range but I have not checked it's accuracy.The AN8008 is another dog here.TheSimpson 260has a 10mA range but I checked the manual and it has no AC current measurement function. I thought it could do it, with high burden losses.It's not a skill issue, it's uncommon knowledge that some DMM's read incorrectly on this function.Shop I worked in it was standard procedure to check mains leakage current on all repairs. I got bit by some products despite the DMM saying all is safe. That's how I figured it out.For now, I use Beckman/Wavetek DMM's that have no problem measuring a few mA AC. They seem to know how to properly make an active rectifier.For the record, I don't own any analog multimeters and 001 is not paying me to be in this thread

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 11:29:35 am
content: Quote from: Cnoob on April 08, 2019, 03:54:30 pmYep!I dropped an AVO 8 off the top of a transmitter---about 2m.I put my foot out (wearing "Japanese safety boots") to prevent damage to the meter ----Ouch!Nota good idea!!The AVO was fine, so was my foot -------after a "few" hours, & some Paracetamol !

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 11:54:26 am
content: Think you were lucky. Usually if you fart in the general direction of an Avo it breaks.On the bench this week:I like both.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 12:07:26 pm
content: AVO 8 has DC current scales down to 250uA, but unfortunately the lowest ac scale is 100mA.http://www.richardsradios.co.uk/avo8.htmlFor generic voltage rail checking, there is not that much to choose from between it & my Fluke 77.A problem the latter has that the AVO has not, is that some waveforms when looked at on the DC range read as a steady DC voltage.On one occasion, I looked at the "boost HT" on a TV, which was supposed to be around 130v.It read about 105v--- a bit low, but not that bad.On checking the same test point with a 'scope, the "DC" (half wave rectified 15kHz from an overwinding on the H.O. Transformer) was obviously not filtered, due to a faulty low ESR electro.With a ordinary analog meter, the problem would have been immediately evident.That said, as most of the time, I use an analog Oscilloscope "free running" in the DC coupled mode for checking power rails, etc, I am quite happy with the 77 for most of the other things.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 12:14:10 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on April 09, 2019, 04:09:18 amIt's never come up that I needed it which explains why I was not aware of that feature. A quick search and sure enough:https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1000001267:epsg:faq&nid=-31895.536880933.02&id=1000001267:epsg:faqFor fun I gave it a try and it seems to work. My meter is one of the early versions. I think I bought it the same year it was released. So there shouldn't be any compatibility problems when using this command.Now I wonder if there are other undocumented features like this.****I should mention that I did not try setting the meter to slow. This was with the defaults.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 12:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 09, 2019, 12:14:10 pmQuoteLOL

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 04:48:45 pm
content: Honey, why did You wrote tons of shitposts here?Keep in mind what analog dmm is a root way to understand metrologyand it did`t require expencive batteriesand etcstop digitise world! stay ortodoxy!

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 05:22:54 pm
content: I have one with 6 and a half needles, every from zero to nine, except the half. That solves the problem...

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 05:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 09, 2019, 12:07:26 pmAvo 9 has 10A, 1A, 100mA, 10mA, 1mA, 300uA and 50uA DC current ranges which can be very handy and on the AC side has 10A, 1A, 100mA and 10mA thuis making more suitable for an electronics bench. I think the Avo 8 was more of an electricians meter.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 05:38:49 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 09, 2019, 12:14:10 pmAfter having the meter unplugged for several hours, the feature is indeed still enabled as the post suggests. Just select manual range and it will show up as an option.I then selected the longer filter and it does appear to improve the accuracy. For fun, I tossed it across a 1 ohm 0.1% shunt which is typically how I would use the meter. Default filter settings.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 06:03:11 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 08, 2019, 08:41:44 pmYeah and good luck trying to get a service manual, parts list or anything else for any of those brands. I have Anritsu, Yokogawa and other Japanese made equipment and it's all well built but there are no manuals for any of it. The only company that has ever supplied me with any information was Misubishi and they had one of their engineers mark up a Japanese language manual and fax it to me. My hat is off them. One more thing: I really wasn't talking about Japan. Maybe you consider it to be a 2nd class country but I definitely wouldn't. Their electronics design and construction is first class but their tech support outside of Japan leaves a lot to be desired."Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here."Those aren't exactly what I would call brand X but I guess you don't understand the difference. But still, being common doesn't mean that it's well built. Radio Shack brand is common but most of it is still junk! Lafayette is only slightly better. Go open any of the brands that you named and look at the build quality and compare that to pictures of the tear downs of any HP built test equipment that have been posted on this forum and then try to convince me that any of them are as well designed or well built. And that is before we talk about the availability of parts, service manual, operators manuals, etc.3roomlab said: "we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR"Did anyone ever get a reply from Sanwa about this? Has anyone ever gotten a response from Sanwa about any technical inquiry??? In fact, has anyone ever gotten a positive response from any Japanese or Chinese test equipment company company for technical support?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2019, 10:15:05 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on April 09, 2019, 04:48:45 pmDear Sir/Ma'am,I get what you are saying about some technology that not always does us any real favorsthat need batteries which may be expensive, and a hassle to buy and keep warm in AntarcticaFYI you can learn a bit about metrology with fast and precise digits too, as well as a moving needleYou kicked off this post, that's drifting off toward'analogue meter memory lane...'but 3 pages later still not advised which 'Digital multimeters sucks' model/brand you have,what the application/s were to instigate the sucking POVand which analogue meter/s you use that do not suck (yet)Throw us a bone here mate

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 12:53:44 am
content: Not sure why an analog movement would be considered "metrology" in the last 50 years, honestly. Sure, there are accurate ones, but digital technologies and being able to display finer gradations have dominated all the most sensitive and highest resolution measurements in recent decades. There are personal preference things and natural averaging/quick display things that analog meters can offer, but those aren't really in the realm of metrology.Maybe the digital meters you have used haven't been well suited to your applications, maybe your analog meters are particularly good and have been well suited to your applications, but the fact is that the precision of a digital readout from a properly specified acquisition system blows an analog meter movement out of the water every time. Even when the sensitivity and the dynamic range of the analog system are the same (or even superior), you can get about 3 digits worth of display precision on a regular sized movement, and you simply can't distinguish finer gradations which many digit digital displays have no trouble showing you - and in many applications these fine details are essential for developing, troubleshooting, or characterizing the DUT.If you like analog meters, great. If you have had a bad experience with digital ones, that's too bad. Don't know how that invalidates the entire architecture across dozens of brands and hundreds of models that have been obviously preferred and market-dominant for several decades.But I gotta say.... whining about needing a battery....... yikes. So your preferred analog meter doesn't even have an ohms range? I'd prefer something with features from at least the 50s...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 02:10:08 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 09, 2019, 06:03:11 pmWay to go moving the goalposts from "WORKS" to "SUPPORT"...Quote from: Stray Electron on April 09, 2019, 06:03:11 pmHey, I am not calling any country 2nd class - your post is the one that was dismissive of anything else other than these two brands whose HQs are in the US.Quote from: Stray Electron on April 09, 2019, 06:03:11 pmHey, your post was the one that put every other brand on the market in the same bucket. It's not my fault that you were not very specific and came across as ignorant of the plethora of brands and quality levels.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 02:36:41 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 09, 2019, 06:03:11 pmYES. Advantest/ADC Corp. Japan GM Sales re request for manual and information in February and others in the past successful responses from other Asian countries/companies China included over time.In the last month Keysight recently has FAILED to respond in any form to a support request via email and my phone call to their support line is still awaiting a response by comparison.You Rash Generalisation/Slight against Asian manufacturers is WRONG.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 01:09:57 pm
content: The point is that any multimeter, unless it is mains driven bench meter uses batteries, even a analogue one.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 01:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on April 10, 2019, 01:09:57 pmMoving coil meters are useful for many purposes, even if their batteries are missing.However, to use them to measure resistance would require an external power source of some sort.

author: sambonator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 01:54:44 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on April 09, 2019, 06:03:11 pmI get responsive support from Hioki all the time.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 10:51:32 pm
content: I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 11:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on April 10, 2019, 10:51:32 pmIs this a conspiracy by Dave to get more traffic to his Forums, and hopefully to his blogs?We should help him.. let's start a "Fluke sucks" thread

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2019, 11:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: windsmurf on April 10, 2019, 11:18:24 pmIf you really want to drum up some drama, you need to start a "UNI-T sucks" thread.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 12:06:20 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 09, 2019, 11:29:35 amFor some reason, my cheap analog meter didn't hold up very well. Perhaps a cheap digital one would be more robust.https://youtu.be/WCIpm8peQSU

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 12:26:39 am
content: Easily a 1000 page monstrosity here in a day if anyone dares post"Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck"kicking off top of the list with Uni-Tee, Harbor Fright wheel chocs, and other ThreeHungLow produced promo freebies,including cheapies labelled for CAT 4 (Tropical Cyclone survivability...in a Pelican case)Hopefully some Antarctican member/s will eventually chime in to stick in the boots on what may be a sensitive topic

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 12:46:27 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 11, 2019, 12:26:39 amHow about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why". I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 12:57:23 am
content: If you think that those questions would create a feeding frenzy, you have not seen photography forums.Just ask: which camera brand is worse? Canon or Nikon? And watch the fanboys shred themselves to molecules.Or the timeless dilemma: do REAL photographers prefer film over digital? Such a thread will grow in no time to several hundred messages long.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 01:02:42 am
content: Damn we're geniuses!We just gave Dave the idea to do a "Top 10 Multimeters that suck!" youtube video series.Million views in a week guaranteed!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 01:08:47 am
content: Quote from: windsmurf on April 11, 2019, 01:02:42 amNow that's great idea!! Come on Dave!!! Hopefully he kept the Extech tweezers!!

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 01:15:05 am
content: Start the series of videos wielding the 8 pound sledge on the no love meterand then flashback to'2 hours earlier in the lab..."

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 01:22:16 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on April 10, 2019, 10:51:32 pmTrolls just like to stir the pot and then sit back and watch it overflow. Look how far this one has come already!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 01:35:04 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 11, 2019, 12:46:27 amThere is such list:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 02:19:06 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 11, 2019, 01:35:04 amBy those standards barely any analog meters would pass. CAT rating? What's that?

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 02:46:44 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 11, 2019, 01:35:04 amNaw dude he changes brands each week. Week 1 might be "Top 10 Fluke Multimeters that suck!", and Week 2 will be "Top 10 Brymen multimeters that suck!", then UniT, then Mastech, etc. Then he gets the 1st place pick and chucks it over the dam, then sends it to Joe for final execution by electrocution. Its brilliant!

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 03:42:04 am
content: Quote from: GregDunn on April 11, 2019, 01:22:16 amI'm still amazedcame back on reply 58 .......... seriously this has to stop ?

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 06:36:12 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on April 11, 2019, 03:42:04 amI say its ok as long as you're having fun

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 07:28:06 am
content: Quote from: 001 on April 09, 2019, 04:48:45 pmWhat are you smoking?Such posts do nothing to enhance the forum. I doubt this kind of post is going to endear you to many people here.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 07:30:44 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on April 10, 2019, 10:51:32 pmThe only correct answer to these trolling posts is to say, "Thanks for sharing" and leave it at that.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 08:38:13 am
content: I've been trying hard not to join-in to this, can't believe there are 4 pages on such a passionate debate already!In the end I couldn't resist, it's all about human nature, we just love a quibble on sterile subjects, it keeps us busy from getting down to real work/problems. (i.e: politics/football are better subjects than sucking DMM's in this respect IMHO.)Sorry for posting, now I have added one more brick to this mess...

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 10:09:55 am
content: Any mention of politics or religion (football) at many forums may get posts lockedAfaict We're indulging in some fun and humor till OP gets the pedal power gen going again in the iced over manigloo,and rocks up to tell what the mystery unortodox DMS is that's a big FAIL in his/her book,and what analogue meter does the meter magic when the 'Digital multimeters sucks'

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 12:34:41 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 11, 2019, 01:35:04 amThat's why I wanted to change the title from "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck" to add "and why". For you, a list like this carries some weight. For me, not so much. The list is someone's feelings about if particular meters will pass these standards. There is very little data on how the meters would actually perform.QuoteIf HF gives me a free meter that has a glass fuse for one shunt and no fuse for the higher current range, it may make his list but it didn't cost me anything. If say I spent $800 USD on a meter and anytime I go near it, it becomes unstable. Or I place a magnetic hanger near it and it can no longer read voltages, that's much worse IMO than any free meter. The real kicker is when you find a little MuMetal goes a LONG WAY to improve it. Nice work Gossen!I've ran a lot of meters to destruction and I doubt you are going to find data on the list how my $100 meter uses a glass filler in the plastic detent spring which cracks after a few cycles. Good design Keysight!Then again we are wasting a lot of plastic producing disposable shit.***Also, " ... just waiting to blow up in your hand." he assumes I am dumb enough to use the meter in an environment that could cause the situation he describes. For me personally, that's not a problem. I seldom work in these areas and when I do, I have equipment for that. So is the free meter really just going to blow up in my hand?? Not the way I would ever use the meter. Could the meter get damaged from my normal use, you bet... But again, it was free.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 01:43:52 pm
content: I am actually surprised that no-one has actually invoked Goodwin's law yet. You know, to the tune of "you are an analog nazi".But again, this forum is better behaved and more civilized than many I have visited. That is the reason I hang here the most.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 02:08:28 pm
content: Beyond politics, religion, football, or even sucking DMM's, in the end it's all about "who has the biggest meter"?Mine is biggish, it has whopping 12cm diagonal colour analog screen (see: red/black + whatever colour you like in that shiny strip), it still works today (that alone is some proof that DMM's suck isn't it?) but... I never use it I have too many DMM's.Totally, (even more) O.T., but as I just discovered this and had a slight grin at it, the French speaking may be amused to know that the Verge is a unit of length, unfortunately it is seldom used to determine who has the biggest meter.Anyone have a CRT analog meter? Or maybe a compromise with a IN-13 tube?Sorry again! Any way we gan get this moved to "General chat"?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 02:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 11, 2019, 12:34:41 pmMaybe you missed the fact that most (if not all) meters listed have 250V glass fuses or unfused inputs when claiming CATII/IV ratings. That is hard data, regardless if it was subjected to testing. The list correlates specs and physical construction.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 02:32:32 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 11, 2019, 02:20:27 pmPerhaps you missed the fact that I wrote "very little data" not no data, and that I personally care very little about it. The real question IMO is could the meter contain the blast.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 05:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 11, 2019, 02:32:32 pmI did miss that. My bad.Blast containment is a whole other story, but certainly one of the main subjects of the EN 61010 and its subparts.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 06:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 11, 2019, 05:35:40 pmBased on their comment "The main criteria is that all inputs must be able to withstand the maximum CAT ratings in all modes of operation, connected incorrectly or not, without harming the user." this seems to be their primary concern.Safety fuses are important when we talk about the operator having a stupid moment. But when we talk about line transients, which could pose the same threat, this is where his list falls apart...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 08:29:23 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 11, 2019, 06:31:33 pmI had 830 multimeter during my childhood. I once measured mains voltage with wire plugged in amps socket because I forgot to plug it back into volts socket. In result wire acted as a fuse, disconnecting itself from the probe near to solder joint (those were not molded around the wire and were hollow inside).

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 11:28:02 pm
content: High Voltage and high bs CAT claims aside for a minute, what about if/when the average Richard Unfortunatto with a shiny new multimetersneaks out during the Xmas day hogout boozefest to measure Uncle Bob's crusty truck 24 and or 12 volt battery voltage,with the meter leads in the unfused 20 Amp current inputs.I'm asssuming some sort of BANG! ?battery pop ?'Unshielded MAW' tack welds ?or smouldering spaghetti meter leads with tasty barbequed selector tracks and neighboring components ?Might even take out some car electronics, including Uncle Bob's crusty CB perhaps?Anyone seen or been there to confirm what the deal is ? LOL, I won't be anytime soonI suppose my point is, you can't expect ANY meter manufacturer to bail you out of 'operator error' perhaps mashed with an unforeseen freaky one time (perhaps last time..) situation,no matter what the claims and -controlled mayhem- Youtube demosMaybe some meters will live up to a lot of claims, but what if you score a dud oneor someones sold off problem they messed with or unknowingly createdi.e. guys, if you're gonna do something risky/stupid/unknownor one of those peeps that get off being a serial Darwin Award Nominee year in year outAt least get some long dry wood sticks or PVC props with tape, ties, glue, garter bands or whateverwith some serious personal PPE between you, and the 'CAT X?' meter and the possible source of DUT BANG!and get some proper 'will blo' fuses somewhere in on the game too,even expl0ding flying shrapnel glass fuses are better than nothing!hey, and don't forget to switch on the freakin camera, and share on Youtube > PLEASE!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 12:29:59 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 11, 2019, 11:28:02 pmWire insulation might weld into hands. Happened to me at a childhood when I shorted old and supposedly "dead" 6V lead-acid motorcycle battery.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 01:45:16 am
content: Quote from: wraper on April 11, 2019, 08:29:23 pmBreak currents/voltage levels in a home won't normally be what you can find in an industrial environment. Then again, if you work in that environment, I doubt you would be out there with your free meter.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 01:49:22 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 11, 2019, 11:28:02 pmCamera rolling, leads pushed to failure....https://youtu.be/fQowDZstguw?t=1771

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 08:47:09 am
content: Excellent example.I'm not ashamed to say I did this once by accident. Maplin precision gold multimeter. Had been using it on 10A current at home the night before to monitor an RC car battery charger. Got to the car at 6AM in the morning when I was half asleep and it was dark and it wouldn't start so I went back in, got the DMM and went back out to check the battery voltage. Now the meter had the 20V DC and 10A ranges at opposite ends of the range switch. The little black mark on the end of the range switch had worn off. Stuffed it on 20V DC I thought (no - 10A), touched the battery terminals. Big spark, probes welded on, one of the DMM leads disappeared in a cloud of smoke in two seconds flat.You have been warned.Good things we have now:1. Probe alert.2. Fused 10A ranges with proper fuses. Not pansy ones.3. Probes which fuse before catching fire.4. Cars without Lucas electrics.(Edit: add point 4)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 11:35:40 am
content: The high current shunts need to be included...https://youtu.be/ne4Ls2mPF-s?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQDhlXQCyoNSDmUjb6lAqC8z&t=1838I later added a second supply.https://youtu.be/3dxEmi4FGT0?t=33

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 08:42:03 am
content: no honey

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 08:47:05 am
content: Quote from: 001 on April 22, 2019, 08:42:03 amWhy feed the troll ?

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 07:47:09 pm
content: Tautech, I'm with you, I've fallen for other posts by the OP before and the more I think about the more convinced I am that it's just a big windup and as such is a pure waste of time responding as the OP seems incapable of of providing any coherent information or sensible response.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 05:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on April 22, 2019, 07:47:09 pmMy english spelling not so wheel as my bright brains

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 07:20:51 am
content: Quote from: 001 on April 08, 2019, 03:31:23 pmMust sucks not being able to measure resistance.