Remember printers with countdowns? now washing machines? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 07:42:15 am
content: My dad's washing machine started refusing to pump water out. We contacted them and for 50% the price of the machine agreed to have them come an repair "any" fault.This machine has a separate control board and front panel board for the controls..... I was not there but dad said he plugged a computer in and from this seemed to determine that the waste pipe was too low..... It has done 150 washes like this with no issue (yes he makes notes of every time he uses it) and incidentally according to the board in the machine it has done 250...... So "he did something" on the computer and moved the pipe........So as far as I know if you put the waste pipe too low you will simply keep loosing water from the machine and it won't be able to work. But this was working it just would not pump water out......Could it just be that the machine has a count down counter like printers and he has reset it? If indeed my dad had done 250 washes it might well have been out of warranty.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 11:07:28 am
content: Wow.Well, the easy test is for your dad to now put the pipe back as he had it before, then see if the machine works.If not, return the pipe to the position the service tech guy put it. Now does it work?If it works the same in either position, the guy was just making up shit as cover for resetting a counter.That would be quite a thing.Mind you, with extreme legislation about appliances these days, maybe the machine detects water loss due to a pipe too low, and refuses to operate? Have you read the stuff about water usage-type restrictions in California recently?What's the brand?

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 11:18:59 am
content: Refusing to pump the water out normally only means one thing: there is a foreign object in the pump preventing it from turning. (yes of course there is always that 1% other causes...)If the waste pipe is too low then the machine would not be able to fill up with water, a completely different problem. Oh, I don't buy the counter thing, it would be out on the streets in no time.

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 11:51:16 am
content: Quote from: Simon on June 10, 2018, 07:42:15 amThe counter on printers is for the consumables to stop refilling. It isn't on the printer itself. There are washing machines now that have a liquid cartridge system but they still have the powder tray and the cartridges can be refilled by the owner. It'd be a brave manufacturer that tries to change that and only allow the usage of proprietary cartridges that can't be refilled.Besides, 250 washes is easily done in a less than a year.What model was this?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 01:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: tsman on June 10, 2018, 11:51:16 amWith a family of four we'd average almost two washes a day.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 02:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 10, 2018, 07:42:15 amNo, probably he cleared an error code if done anything at all except just looking for errors.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 02:03:00 pm
content: Quote from: tsman on June 10, 2018, 11:51:16 amThere is also a counter for waste ink tank on inkjet printers.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 02:32:28 pm
content: We have an entertaining washing machine too. From time to time the water sensor clogs up (a hose with a pressure sensor). This is fixed by opening the fluff filter and draining the water. Two months ago the washing programs started repeating the last few steps over and over again. Luckily this was fixed by resoldering the connection between the controller board and the MCU daughterboard. What I've found out is that the controller has a serial interface for service and firmware upgrades. The vendor uses the same controller for several washing machine models, just with different firmwares. Any washing machine hackers around?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 03:12:59 pm
content: And more fun with household appliances. My sister has a fancy Samsung side-by-side fridge/froster. After a while the evaporator in the fridge was clogged up with ice. After some testing it was clear that the defrost sensor (an NTC) had a nice failure mode. Above 0°C the NTC had a reasonable resistance, but below 0°C the value was completely out of spec. So I replaced it and also the cracked water chiller which is mounted in front of the evaporator. It ran fine for 6 weeks. Clogged up with ice again. NTC is fine, defrost heater is fine, temperature fuses are fine, found nothing obvious. Learned about a hidden service menu to force the fridge into defrost mode. Defrost works also fine. Slowly I figured out that the cause was the clogging up of the drain. The defroster wasn't able to defrost the evaporator and the drain reliably. I took a strip of thin aluminum sheet, clamped it on the defrost heater and stuck the other end into the drain. No problems since thenIn some service manual for another fridge model I've seen a picture of a small piece of aluminum, very similar to my custom part, later on. It's a known design problem

author: Dielectric
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 03:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 10, 2018, 03:12:59 pmI'm pretty convinced that white goods are basically a known design problem in a box. Cheap plastics and stupid cost reductions abound.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 03:23:51 pm
content: It sounds like what they do with cars these days. If there is a fault condition from one of the sensor the computer detects it and then refuse to activate the machine (even if you fix the problem). In order to clear the fault you have to use a computer to talk to the machine. The companies can then sell "diagnostics software" to authorized repair shops very expensively and you can't repair it yourself so you either have to pay for it to be repaired, or buy a new one.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 03:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 10, 2018, 02:03:00 pmThose waste Ink tank counter was very annoying - especially with no real tank, but just a kind of sponge that might get saturated if used in very humid climate. When I got hat message there was already free software out to reset that stupid counter. Thas stupid sponge finally lived longer than the printer.With quite some white goods there are descriptions out in the web or even in the instructions to tell the meaning of the error messages and the likely cause (e.g. foreign object in the pump). Repairs got really expensive - it is the rather high wages and appliances getting so cheap. 150 or 250 runs might still be under warranty - so I really doubt this would be a counter, more like a poor design.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 04:16:33 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 10, 2018, 03:23:51 pmWell, it is like that because the computer has no way to know you have actually fixed it (the issue could be intermittent or someone could simply override/disable the sensor). If you kill yourself on a motorway because it was e.g. a brake line losing fluid and not only a wonky sensor, the manufacturer doesn't want to get sued because some bozo has only reset the fault indication. By requiring a tech with a diagnostic tool to go look at it they are at least off the hook legally - the tech is supposed to actually check the faulty system, not just clear the error - if they didn't they will be responsible for any problems.Of course, it has also the "convenient" effect that the diagnostic tools are proprietary and force you to go to a dealer/authorized mechanic for the repair if it involves anything electronic (independent garages typically can't buy these tools, you need a contract with the manufacturer), as you say. But that isn't the primary reason for it, it is mostly the CYA aspect. If someone is doing repairs of e.g. Volkswagen cars, the cost of the diagnostic tooling gets amortized pretty quickly.Also the new EU rules about the mandatory technical checks/revisions of cars stipulate that any fault light lit up on the dash when it shouldn't be is a reason to fail the check, so this will get even more use.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 05:30:40 pm
content: For Christs sake it's only a washing machine not a safety critical system. I was not there so but no work was done to the actual machine other than comms.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 05:40:11 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 10, 2018, 05:30:40 pmThough if it fails leaking, it could damage your apartment and those beneath you. Could cost more than a new car in repairs.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 05:44:31 pm
content: Leaking? as far as I know a washing machine drum leads straight to the pump and out to the discharge hose. If the hose was too low and it could not fill properly it would never work instead id would wash but then refuse to pump out so it hardly feels like it could detect the hose being too low and has done 150 washes like this. Turns out it was not a new machine as it had done 250 washes. If there was to be any leak it would not be preventable by not pumping out.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 05:56:15 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 10, 2018, 05:44:31 pmIf washing machine detects that there is something not right with waste pipe or something around it, it's completely reasonable to prevent pumping water out. It could be not only pipe placed too low but an actual leakage.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 06:00:38 pm
content: yes but given that it has worked fine for 150 washes I doubt it detected anything. The only thing it could detect is if the drum is not filling because the waste pipe is too low and letting all of the water out again therefore the wash would never start, the problem only occured on pumping out time when all it wants to do IS loose water.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 06:04:42 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 10, 2018, 02:32:28 pmYeah, actually there are, there was a guy over on the EPE magazine Chatzones who was into washing machines and was building replacement controller boards for his 'collection' so if there's anyone to ask it'd be him

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 06:11:04 pm
content: I was just amazed that there were 2 boards in this machine. Unless you are going to have some sort of power handling board why? but then if you can charge 50% the value of the machine and have your customer less pissed off then hey why not, i mean why not just build washing machines with debit card readers that charge per wash and sell the machines for a few quid - seems to work for printers. Ever teared of the guy that returned 3! Lexmark printers to Tesco because they all stopped at 16 prints....

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 06:12:31 pm
content: My old printer gave up for no good reason and i was using a refillable inking system with self resetting cartridges, yes they do put a limit in the printer as well. No issues, it just stopped!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 06:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 10, 2018, 06:11:04 pmWhat is that machine? If it's LG, it should have direct drive BLDC motor and respectively inverter board.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 06:58:11 pm
content: indesitA BLDC would have it's own onboard controller. This thing is specific, one computer board and one front panel controls board.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 07:12:06 pm
content: Indesit uses the same controller board for several models and customizes the front panel and firmware.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 07:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 10, 2018, 06:58:11 pmNo it would not. As well as, say, BLDC for RC have separate controller as well.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 07:23:50 pm
content: I was thinking the logistics of manufacture would favour an all in one plug and play unit. But yes the controller does not have to go on the motor and I work with such motors at work and they are a nuisance.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:56:06 pm
content: Next time buy a Miele. Ours is getting close to 20 years and is probably clocking somewhere around 7000 washes. It is still going strong although it had some minor problems (shock absorbers, inlet valve and sealing collar around the drum) which where cheap & easy to fix by myself. Getting the parts is easy as well. I'll keep it running until it is beyond economical repair.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 09:45:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 10, 2018, 08:56:06 pmBut at the same price you could just replace washing machine with new every 4 years.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 10:29:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 10, 2018, 08:56:06 pmI've repaired my 1997 Kenmore washer and dryer pair a couple of times. Cheap? Yup. Easy? Usually. Frustrating? Sometimes.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:07:40 pm
content: The circuit board in my old $250 digital washer cost over $150 and after replacing it twice I swore that I'd never buy another washer that uses digital controls. It took some searching but I finally found a washer made by Speed Queen that still uses real switches and electromechanical timer. They're hard to find since Speed Queen makes commercial washers and usually doesn't sell them for home use.Digital technology is fine but ONLY if it'swell built and durableand as long as the manufacturer doesn't have the attitude that he can rape you on the price of repair parts!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on June 24, 2018, 02:07:40 pmThat mechanical crap is much less reliable than average electronic controller.QuoteAnd price is the answer for why it failed.QuoteWhat did you expect for $250?BTW who prohibited you to do component level repair and save at least 90% of the new controller cost?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 04:03:20 pm
content: I'd guess 1600rpm provide a nice vibration test for solder joints or connectors. Add cheap electrolytic caps in the SMPSU and you got a winnerThese issues are easy to fix.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 06:22:07 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 10, 2018, 02:03:00 pmI do not want to know whats in the wasmachine waste tank please!

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 08:11:23 pm
content: I have an expensive, fancy washing machine that is a piece of junk. It is truly a marvel of cost engineering - everything that can be made of plastic is, and not much consideration was given the to the vibration rich environment. It is plagued with piss-poor connectors that shake loose or weaken and break connecting wires.Fortunately, there isn't much to these machines. It's a standard BLDC design, a couple of pumps, motor, control board, separate interface board, and a few hoses. I've probably changed out just about everything in it over the years: stator, controller, pumps, drum shaft, bearings, springs.I can't stand to part with it though. They wife yells that it's broken again, and like a race-car pit mechanic I've got it on its back all torn apart asking her to time me to see how quick I can get it fixed. She's wanted to replace that thing for years.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 08:51:40 pm
content: I have a Miele and it malfunctioned after two years, service tech came and already knew the cause just by asking one question: do you run the machine at 90C at least once a month?No we did not, 90C is for white linnen and out of fashion stuff no one uses anymore but the machine relied on it to clean the washing powder/liquid pipework.So now we have to poor boiling water in it once per month to clean the pipes and never had apoblem again. Other remedy would be to use the washing ball instead of the drawer.Anyway I don't understand why this is not in the manual or a built in "clean run" function, any semi-automatic espresso machine has this built in.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 24, 2018, 08:51:40 pmThen you are washing at too low temperatures indeed. I clean ours two or three times per year using a short 90 degrees program and use soda to clean the internals (no laundry). This is common for any washing machine.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 24, 2018, 09:02:07 pmCoke or Pepsi?Actually, what kind of soda do you mean?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on June 24, 2018, 09:29:50 pmNobody except Americans drinks soda.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:44:12 pm
content: This is soda:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_carbonate

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 06:07:00 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 24, 2018, 09:02:07 pmThen why is it not in the manual?Even with cars they say to change the oil even when everyone knows this.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 09:45:25 am
content: I was just kidding, but any time a chemical is referred to by a common name there can be confusion. I see it here most often with solvents. The word "soda" has multiple meanings even in chemistry.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SodaFor the record, I've never used "soda" to describe something you'd drink. That usage seems to be much more common in some areas of the country than in others.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:14:52 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 24, 2018, 09:40:25 pmIt's used in parts of the UK too.Washing Soda would have been a more useful term.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:41:38 pm
content: IMHO This is a very unsatisfactory threadThe OP did not explain the issue sufficiently.In my limited experience Washing Machines have a pump located near the bottom front of the machine and in the same location is an access hole (and often a drain pipe). Failure to pump out is due to pump having died, pump being restricted due to foreign body, drain hose being clogged with accrued gunk or pump not operating due to controller issue. There is probably a sensor for water level too... not so sure about those.In our household the normal failure mode is due to a hair band (stretchy elastic thing) that has got itself wound around the impeller.Next time you have a similar fault drop me a line; I'll be sure to charge you around 49% of the machine cost.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 03:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on June 25, 2018, 12:41:38 pmUsually a pressure switch at the top of the drum attached via a narrow bore piece of pipe to the 'bottom' of the pump, water in increases the pressure in the pipe, water out and the pressure releases.If the pipe gets gunked up it doesn't drop fast enough and the machine flags a fault.Same fix, hot wash or two with soda crystals.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 04:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 25, 2018, 06:07:00 amdepends on the brand.BEKO machines have a manual that states clearly to inspect the pump-filter monthly and to flush the machine with cleaner at 90' several times a year.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 04:28:18 pm
content: As others have observed here and in other forums, cheap plastic components, relentless cost reductions and fancy electronics are creating a vast array of short lived, disposable products.Unfortunately, this is creeping into the highest valued consumer product: the automobile.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 06:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 24, 2018, 02:25:52 pmThen you disagree with every repairman I have ever spoken to, or otherwise heard comment on the matter: they’ve consistently singled out the electronics as a major point of failure, and one that never failed in old machines. The mechanical timers are robust. They were replaced with electronic first in high end models because it enabled fancy features. Mechanical timers remained in low end washers (despite costing more to make than electronic controllers) to differentiate the fancy ones. Later they moved to cheaper appliances.Price seems to make little to no difference: the electronic controller in the $4000 washer in my old apartment failed and had to be replaced. (I know that one anecdote is not data.)

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 06:59:50 pm
content: My recent white goods experience :SamsungNew fancy Samsung washing machine failed twice in two year..First failure - after 7 days or so - hose clamp came off. Know issue - Samsung sent engineer out with better hose system2nd failure - Electronics Board stopped working with WiFi (I know - but it is nice to get alert that washing is finished)3nd failure - First engineer did not know how to install new hose system in Failure 1 - they have "fancy" close mechanism on the hoses - but repair guy did not know how to use it - so he used two tiny 4mm wide zip ties strung together to reach all the way around the hose... That of course failed. I repaired that myself as wait would have been about 2 week to get appointment. When engineers arrived I told them I fixed it - and what I did and showed them pictures of what they did last time. They signed off on my repair as it was embarrassing and my warranty is still intact *G*Fisher & Paykel:New super fridge - but was so loud you could not talk in the kitchen. Asked for replacement. Replacement arrived - very damaged from factory. Sent both back for refund. Cleaned our OLD F&P fridge up that has traveled the world with us - and put it back in service.FIsher & Paykel:New dishwasher (fancy 2 in 1 dishwasher) - actually great when you have children. But main board showed fault after about 3 weeks. Engineer came after the obligatory 2 weeks - replaced the board - and left the old board with me. No issues since.So - so far no new white goods without failures...... (oh apart from Extractor fan - that works - so far no issues - NEFF brand)

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 08:17:50 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on June 25, 2018, 06:59:50 pmThere's your problem. What did you expect? Quality?Quote from: kaz911 on June 25, 2018, 06:59:50 pmYou can get notifications without WiFi. My washer use a lower frequency band that can be received by the two receivers integrated into my head.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 08:29:04 pm
content: extra-ultra-very low frequency, indeed!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 08:35:23 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on June 25, 2018, 08:17:50 pmThere is nothing wrong with Samsung more than with others.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:12:26 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 25, 2018, 08:35:23 pmWe had a Samsung (unfortunately it wasn't compatible with our rather resonant flooring so had to swap it for a Bosch which had a bigger chunk of concrete) and I really liked the way it used to sing to us when finished. Small things.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:25:30 am
content: Quote from: glarsson on June 25, 2018, 08:17:50 pmI'm old and washer is in another building so it is not so easy to pick up that frequency span long range.

author: OE2WHP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 10:40:25 am
content: When I was a small child, my parrents had a Miele. It was there before I was born and it still was there when I moved out. Within 20 years of service there was only one fault. The programm selector broke and my dad had to fix it. After that the machine worked another 15 years without any issue. So overall the machine worked for 37 years with only one repair and has been replaced, still in working condition, with a new Miele due to efficiency (water and power consumption) reasons.I decided for a Bosch and after 15 years it failed the first time. The carbon brushes of the motor were worn. A €5,- repair. After another 5 years the brushes were worn again due to the commutator beeing a bit rough from wear. While thinking about disassembling the motor and smoothing the commutator on the lathe I found another issue. The heating element was corroded to a point where I overall decided it's no longer worth to repair the damn thing. Again we went for a Bosch. Let's see how long this one will run without repair.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 10:46:27 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on June 26, 2018, 09:25:30 amThat's a problem. Just replace the emitter with a Klaxon.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 06:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 25, 2018, 08:35:23 pmI’m not sure about Samsung’s offerings in Europe, but their early North American models hadhugereliability and design problems. (The models for the N.A. market are generally totally different from European and Asian ones. So Samsung entered a new market with styles of washers totally unlike what they’d made before. And it showed.)

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:08:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 25, 2018, 08:35:23 pmhttps://duckduckgo.com/?q=exploding+samsung+washing+machine

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:27:43 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 26, 2018, 06:09:43 pmI needed a part for my previous fridge (standard Kenmore freezer-on-top model), so I went to the local Appliance Parts Depot to get it. This store is huge and stocks repair parts for most appliances, and the repair techs go there to get the parts to fix whatever they have to fix. I heard a couple of the repair guys talking with the store's guy and one repair guy said, "If it's a Samsung, I just tell the client to replace it with something else." After the repair guys left, I asked the store guy, "Are Samsungs really that bad?" and he said, "oh yeah, they're the worst, always breaking in some way or other. Get anything else."