Canadian electrical code (Ontario) question. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 11:37:46 am
content: I'm adding a 1500W, 240V heater in my attached garage to the existing 200A panel, that is located in the garage. The cable will be exposed. Plan to use 14-2 AC (BX), I have three questions:1) Can I use conventional (black, white, gnd) BX, red tape on the white wire to ID as hot conductor.2) Regarding the thermostat, the one I have has two poles, I have seen these connected two different ways in the past, method one, they switch two heaters, one on each pole. Method two they switch both poles to either one heater or two in parallel. Not sure what the code book says about this?3) I have existing spare conventional 15A dual pole breakers in the panel, can I use these or are arc-fault breakers required?Edit added "attached" for clarity.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:56:48 pm
content: For insurance reasons you should have the job done by a certified electrician .....or some sites like this ...https://ask-the-electrician.com/electrical-wiring-for-a-240-volt-wall-heater/electrical-wiring-2/

author: alpher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 04:55:02 pm
content: BX is no good for outdoors, use teck cable or conduit. You can tape the white line with black tape but i suggest using 3 wires plus ground of course, this way you'd have neutral if needed in the future. I don't think you need arc fault for garage, but haven't checked recent codebook. Btw in Ontario you go by Ontario electrical code not Canadian code.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 05:02:33 pm
content: Quote from: alpher on April 16, 2023, 04:55:02 pmQuote from: Jester on April 16, 2023, 11:37:46 am

author: alpher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 06:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 16, 2023, 05:02:33 pmI didn't realize that Jester has attached garage, assumed detached.Are you sure?

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 08:41:55 pm
content: To clarify, attached garage.No need for neutral.I have a spool of 14-2 BX

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 10:04:34 pm
content: Looks like you can view the CEC for free online (at least if you're in Canada, or have a vpn):https://www.csagroup.org/store/product/CSA%20C22.1:21/Taping the white wire in a cable black or red for a switched lead or second hot is pretty common and generally permissible in the US where we use the same wiring materials/voltages, so I'd be extremely surprised if it isn't also allowed in Canada. Otherwise you'd need different types of cables for different types of circuit which would be silly. Note that this only applies to cables, the remarking of individual wires smaller than 6AWG in raceways is not permitted in the US.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 11:59:53 pm
content: The neutral should be passed along all the needed wiresand you do know its utility, just writting this means you dont want to play by the rules ..... just to pass on an spoolin a word DUMBI had to redo all my garage wirings, i discovered some insanities in the wall, and for the insurance it had to become clean and secure ....have funif you dont tell them and something happens, have fun too be warned

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 01:33:03 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on April 16, 2023, 11:59:53 pmMany (most?) North American 240V appliances do not require a neutral wire and will not have a place to connect one even if you did run it. There's even a family of NEMA connector configurations for 240V with two lives, ground, and no neutral (the 6- family) for plugin equipment from 15A to 50A. There is no need to run a neutral wire for such circuits.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 01:58:22 am
content: Quote from: ajb on April 17, 2023, 01:33:03 amThis makes many US 240v devices compatible with similar ones from countries with 230/240v Live Neutral Earth (ground) systems, which to bring this back on topic, use "three wire connections."Reading comments over years here, though, some have pointed out that the control circuits on some US devices use 120v phase to neutral, so even if the actual heater element is 240v between the two "hots", your device may not work, as the controls will be non-functional.I noticed after typing this, thatajbhas already addressed the matter, & it seems it isn't as common as I assumed.

author: ifrythings
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 02:04:35 am
content: Quote from: Jester on April 16, 2023, 11:37:46 amYou can use 14/2 BX for your heater, you have to support it within 300mm from each termination/box and 1.5m in between.The thermostat HAS to disconnect both hot wires when in the OFF position.The breaker you have is fine for this install.Just to elaborate on a post above, the CEC is the MINIMUM allowable installation requirement in Canada, you also have to check your provincial code requirements and your municipal code requirements.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 02:16:11 am
content: eh no problem its your life, the OP can go at any good electrical store and ask questions ...and the ground wire as an utility btw, and if it can save your @... when problems arise(s)i have auto disconnect / reset / breaker ac outlets and they need a proper ground to work .. and when by accident you short some wires in an ac extension under a lanmower loll or any bad luck you may have or not in your lifetimeIt take only one time.... and i have childrens, that's why i did / made an full electrical check on a 40 year old house, it was built for us, but we had some "bad" surprises who could have ended far worse ... just sayingAnd the entrepreneur at that time as gone bankrupt 5 years later, we had to do some battle with him for the sub basement, it was included in the price, but he decided not to do it ....... tht's why he bullshi tted us ...Things i did not knew in the past and things i know now, and over a 40 years period you do know things happens lollThe OP could have done his homework before even posting here lollStill in Quebec we have some house fires because the wiring was done with aluminum .... and people find this too late ... some stupids did use ac extensions in their walls ...The OP should know that posting here should / will come with the basic warningsbbye i wont answer back

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 03:39:22 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on April 16, 2023, 11:59:53 pmI've never seen a 240V heater in North America that needs neutral or even has anywhere to connect it. For baseboard and wall heaters inside a house ordinary 14/12/10-2 (2 conductors + safety ground) NM cable with the white wire marked black or red is all I've ever seen used. If the load is only a single 1500W heater then 14-2 is fine, protected by a breaker no larger than 15A. The load is only a little over 6 amps.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:40:14 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on April 17, 2023, 02:16:11 amNo they don't. And nobody has mentioned not having a ground anyway.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:32:02 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on April 16, 2023, 11:59:53 pmI appreciate your advice, I do the wiring then get an inspection. I want to make sure I wire to code, hence the question about the regular vs. Arc-fault breakers.I never stated this cable did not have a ground or I would not connect it. I have never seen BX without a ground, who knows perhaps it existed 70 years ago, but I have never seen it.Back in the 70's I took an electrician type course (1 year) and wired numerous houses top to bottom, but that was then and the code has changed.It would be entirely pointless to run a neutral for this heater, so I don't agree that its "dumb" not to run a neutral. The panel is 5' from the heater if I need a circuit with a neutral I have 20 spare breakers for that.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 03:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: Jester on April 17, 2023, 11:32:02 amIt's what the inspector says that matters. If he insists you do it certain way even though it's not strictly required by the code, you're not going to fight the inspector, right? Thus, build it so that it's easy to change if you need it.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 05:13:50 pm
content: Quote from: Jester on April 17, 2023, 11:32:02 amNot sure about 70 years ago, but it definitely existed 100 years ago when my house was built. In theory the metal cladding was supposed to serve as the ground connection, in practice it was not at all reliable. Fortunately most of that was replaced with NM in the 70s.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 05:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 17, 2023, 03:00:31 pmPerhaps, I have never ever had an issue with an inspector. Never a situation were they asked for something not in the code. That last one complimented me on a 200A panel replacement stating that it was "better" than most professional installations, he went on to tell me how some "professionals" have two or three blatant violations and then argue when he tells them they need to correct them to meet code.I see no need for a neutral to a (240V only) dedicated heater.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 06:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: Jester on April 17, 2023, 05:27:45 pmOf course not. It is silly to have an extra wire which is not connected to anywhere. Perhaps it could make some sense if the wiring was inside walls in case you install something else in the future which might need a neutral. Absolutely no need for the neutral in your situation.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 06:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on April 17, 2023, 05:13:50 pmI've heard the terms used interchangeably but technically BX uses the sheath as ground while MC has a separate ground conductor. I've always used MC when I need armored cable for exposed applications.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 07:00:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 17, 2023, 06:29:58 pmBX is probably the old trade name that I learned in the 70's, I think the old timers probably still refer to as such even though the correct name (I think) in Canada is now AC. Either way my spool of "BX" that is probably actually "AC " has a dedicated ground. I guess I need to get with the times terminology wise.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 12:07:06 am
content: I'd like to address the well intentioned members who insist on getting the work done professionally or imply the OP is trying to get around the rules doing it himself. In Ontario a homeowner can legally do electrical work themself. They must get a notification (permit) from ESA Ontario and have the work inspected at rough-in and final. As long as you have that, there is no problem with insurance, because it will have been done to code and legally. Unfortunately, the Ontario electrical code is behind pay wall and not cheap. You can usually get by with a "simplified" version you can buy at home Depot or wherever but they won't cover things like this that are atypical of DIY homeowner type stuff.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 12:40:51 am
content: Quote from: Jester on April 17, 2023, 07:00:37 pmBX is in fact a trade name, but BX/MC/AC get used pretty loosely. NFPA 70 defines types "AC" armored cable and "MC" metal clad cable: AC has a "bonding strip of aluminum or copper in intimate contact with the armor for its entire length" and "shall provide an adequate path for fault current". MC may provide an "effective ground-fault current path" via the metallic sheath, an internal grounding conductor, or the combination of the two.In any case, older metallic insulated cable like what's in my house has neither the required bonding strip nor a grounding conductor, and doesn't provide an especially effective grounding path--certainly not when it's a hundred years old, anyway! Modern AC with modern fittings might provide much more reliable bonding via the sheath, but I'd feel a lot better with a dedicated conductor...

author: MLXXXp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 08:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: macboy on April 18, 2023, 12:07:06 amIn Toronto, I've found that the Toronto Public Library has copies of the Ontario Electrical Code and Canadian Electrical Code, as well as handbooks, etc., available in hard copy as reference, in some of their branches. (They can't be borrowed or signed out. You have to read them in the branch.)I don't know if other libraries in Ontario would have them.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 10:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: MLXXXp on April 18, 2023, 08:26:24 pmYou can also get something like theElectrical Code Simplifiedbook, for us simpletons, which says the following:Quote

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 10:56:12 pm
content: Well I think I now have answers to all three of my original questions (Thanks everybody):1) Can I use conventional (black, white, gnd) BX, red tape on the white wire to ID as hot conductor.YES2) Regarding the thermostat, the one I have has two poles, I have seen these connected two different ways in the past, method one, they switch two heaters, one on each pole. Method two they switch both poles to either one heater or two in parallel. Not sure what the code book says about this?Must switch both poles3) I have existing spare conventional 15A dual pole breakers in the panel, can I use these or are arc-fault breakers required?Conventional breakers are OKNot one of my original questions, but it did come up during the discussion regarding the neutral.......Quote from: thm_w on April 18, 2023, 10:27:48 pm

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2023, 02:21:31 am
content: Yes that sounds right. Here in the US arc fault breakers are required virtually everywhere now, Canadian code is broadly the same as the NEC but there are differences. Either way I think those things are more trouble than they're worth, I have NOT had a good experience with them.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2023, 04:22:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 19, 2023, 02:21:31 amI installed an arc-fault breaker once. It was tripping every time a dimmer is used, so I had to go back to normal breaker.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2023, 08:27:35 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 19, 2023, 04:22:42 amFrom what I have read the arc-fault legislation debacle was largely a solution looking for a problem introduced by a "stacked" committee represented by the circuit breaker manufacturers.