New scope - LeCroy HDO9000 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 05:59:21 pm
content: Just got news that LeCroy came out with a new scope:LeCroy HDO9000- BW 1/2/3/4GHz- up to 40GSa/s- 10bit ADC- 128Mpts sample memory- 16ch MSO optional, plus a High-speed Digital Analyzer option- 15.4" 1280x800 touchscreen with multi-touch and gesturesDatasheet:http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/hdo9000-oscilloscope-datasheet.pdfList prices from $21k for the 1GHz version to $37k fpr the 4GHz variant.The HDO9000 is clearly positioned against the Keysight Infiniium S which is Keysight's 10bit proposition with BW ranges from 500Mhz to 8GHz, sample rates up to 20GSa/s, up to 800Mpts memory and a 15" XGA (1024x768) touchscreen display. Prices for the DSO-S start at $18k for the 500Mhz variant, at S21k for the 1GHz variant, at $37k for the 4Ghz variant and go up to $69k for the 8GHz variant. The prices are similar to the HDO900 which suggests that LeCroy has stopped to undercut Keysight on price.Remarkable is that, like with the WaveRunner 8000 that came out earlier this year, LeCroy has again settled for what today in this class can only be considered as very moderate sample memory sizes (128M vs up to 800M on the Keysight).On the other side, all the typical LeCroy features are there, i.e. WaveScan which is free (while the inferior Keysight InfiniiScan costs another $1200 or so), the UI has been modernized with multi-touch, gestures and tabs, and the list of available options is pretty long as one would expect.Still, the small sample memory of the HD9000 is very disappointing, especially when considering that this time the distance to the competition is much smaller than ever before. The DSO-Sisreally a very attractive proposition.Would be interesting to see both scopes in a trial.Update: stupid thought error removed

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 06:03:36 pm
content: The design looks similar to the Siglent SDS3000

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 06:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on September 20, 2016, 06:03:36 pmThat is because the SDS3000 is partially a LeCroy design and LeCroy specified the housing and front panel (so that the optics fit to their HDO Series).It seems they have now standardized on that format for their new scopes. I'm not a huge fan of it, though (I liked previous formats like the one of the WR6zi or the "suitcase" style WRXi much better).

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 06:51:56 pm
content: With some of these WaveRunner scopes you can change the screen from landscape to portrait:http://www.avalonsellslecroy.com/lecroy_waverunner_640zi.htmFirst time I see this actually

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 06:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 20, 2016, 05:59:21 pmSurely not? The memory sizes quoted for both scopes are (mega)points, notbytes. So the extra word width called for by a 10 bit ADC is 'included in the price'. I believe the acquisition memory word is wider anyway, to allow for averaging and/or hi res modes (whatever they call them).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 07:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on September 20, 2016, 06:57:49 pmYou're absolutely right. My bad!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 07:40:52 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on September 20, 2016, 06:03:36 pmVery much so.When Mr W has one in his hot little hands he might like to tell us where they're made.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 07:57:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 20, 2016, 07:40:52 pmI'm sure it'll be a while until I see one in real-life but I bet it's made in USA as all other HDO Series scopes are. Or pretty much all current LeCroy scopes with the exception of WaveJet (Iwatsu, Japan), WaveSurfer 3000 and WaveAce (both Siglent, China).

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:37:20 am
content: Wonder how good its FFT is, there is also a "Spectrum Analyzer and Advanced FFT Option HDO9K-SPECTRUM" available.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 05:05:14 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on September 21, 2016, 03:37:20 amFFT goes up to the full sample memory (128Mpts).QuoteThis is pretty much just a SA-like UI so that the FFT part can be operated like a SA. It also comes with markers and some other functionality.Without the option you get the same resolution but you have to use the FFT UI (which is a bit more cumbersome).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 05:12:11 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 20, 2016, 05:59:21 pmI don't think so. It's Mpts not MB, i.e. sample points. So doesn't matter what the sample size is.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 06:31:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2016, 05:12:11 amI guess you missednfmax' post from yesterdaythenPlusmy response

author: richpike
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 02:41:23 pm
content: It doesn't appear to be a 10-bit ADC from reading the manual. It sounds like it automatically adjusts resolution based on the number of channels and setting from 8-bits up to 10-bits.From the manual - Page 49 (my emphasis):*************************************HD1024 high definition technology offers more quantization levels and greater precision whendigitizing waveforms. HD1024dynamically reconfigures the ADC based on the number of activechannels and applies bandwidth filters in response to the timebase settings to prevent waveformaliasing while maintaining high resolution.The HD Mode setting on the Timebase dialogenables/disables HD1024.When HD Mode is Off, the oscilloscope operates in continuous 8-bitresolution.HD1024 is enabled by default on all HDO9000 oscilloscopes.Note: HD Mode does not work with Sequence, Roll, or RIS Sampling Mode acquisitions; theseoptions are disabled when in HD Mode. Sample Rate is restricted to a minimum 500 ms/s andthe Time/div to a maximum 500 ?s. Pre-processor Enhanced Resolution (ERes) and userdefinedlinear Interpolation are also disabled; interpolation is handled automatically.HD1024 MethodologyThe HD1024 technology utilizes two principal methods for maintaining high resolution: dynamic ADCconfiguration (managing the number of active channels and resolution) and optimized bandwidthfiltering at the input.Dynamic ADC ConfigurationInterleaving allows the oscilloscope to put memory where it is needed to maintain the highestpossible sample rate, and the principal way to do this is to combine digital capabilities into a limitednumber of active channels. There are three Active Channels options you may select from theTimebase dialog. When in HD Mode, this selection affects the number of bits resolution at which anychannel may operate, as well as sample rate:l Four leaves all channels active for acquisition, optimized for 9-bit resolution.l Two leaves two channels active for acquisition, C2 and C3, optimized for 10-bit resolution.l Auto, the default HD1024 selection, dynamically configures the number of active channels andthe resolution at which they operate depending on which channels are actually active and yourother Vertical and Timebase settings. You can enhance the performance of this selection bywhenever possible attaching your signals to input pairs C1 and C3, C1 and C4, C2 and C3, or C2and C4. Doing so supports interleaving to 40 GS/s and maintaining 10-bit resolution.Anti-Aliasing FiltersIf the sample rate lowers to a point where waveform aliasing could occur, HD1024 will dynamicallyapply bandwidth filters to the input according to the reduction in sample rate in order to ensure thatthe Nyquist 2:1 ratio of at least two samples per cycle is met. Lowering bandwidth enables theinstrument to maintain or even raise the total resolution of that channel.*************************************

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 03:03:22 pm
content: Thatsoundslike it is distributing available ADC conversions across the number of channels in use (which almost all DSOs do anyway) but in a rather more flexible way; and using 'hi-res' or whatever it is called (we use the term 'fast time averaging' here) to gain an extra bit or two of resolution when you have more conversions available than the bandwidth requires. And also, adding extra filters, reducing the bandwidth, when it doesn't have enough ADC conversions to go round. Presumably this would kick in if you are using a lot of channels at fast sweep speeds. But I'm not sure I'd feel happy with a scope that changed bandwidth if I change the sweep speed!This may not be what is actually going on, but it is difficult to tell from the description. The language is a bit too much marketing speak for a user manual. A table showing the achieveable bandwidth & resolution for each combination of input channels and sweep speeds would be helpful.

author: salviador
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 03:05:34 pm
content: LeCroy HDO9000My dream .......... but the price is impossible!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 04:40:18 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on September 22, 2016, 03:03:22 pmThat appears to be the case.QuoteI'm not sure it uses oversampling, details as of yet are sparse but it's supposed to be a hardware 10bit ADC hybrid.But if not and if that is indeed a 8bit ADC using oversampling then I'd assume it doesn't use simple boxcar averaging (which is what 'HiRes' on other scopes do) but a FIR filter similar to ERES.QuoteYes, more information are definitely needed. I seriously hope it doesn't turn out to be an oversampled 8bit ADC, which considering that the DSO-S is true 10bit wouldn't look good at all. Especially when considering how poor the Agilent Infiniium 9000H (which also uses oversampling to gain more than 8bits) performed against the HDO6000 (which is true 12bit).So far I can't say that this new LeCroy scope got me overly excited

author: robert_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 07:28:01 pm
content: As far as i heard, they use 4 8bit ADC per channel with a small DC offset between them (1/4LSB), and sample those at the same time to obtain higher resolution in 10bit mode, and use them with no offset but with time interleaving to obtain high sample rate at 8bit. 9bit mode uses 2 time interleaved groups of 2 1/2LSB offset ADCs.If the ADCs are very linear this should work fairly well.Not too interested in that series either, i have little need for that kind of sample rate/BW. I do however really like their 12bit/2(2.5)Gs/s systems which do offer significant advantage over 8bits, at least for my applications.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 08:07:04 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 22, 2016, 04:40:18 pmCould you provide a link to the comparison, please?

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 09:17:50 am
content: Quote from: robert_ on September 22, 2016, 07:28:01 pmAt this sample rate, all the ADCs I know of are interleaved, multi-phase designs anyway. So it sounds like they have different ways of operating the interleaving, adjusting clock phases and offset voltages as appropriate. Clever stuff! Assuming you have the linearity (compensation method) to make it work, and given it's LeCroy I think we can assume they do.Does anyone know if they have published anything on this architecture?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 11:26:35 am
content: Quote from: The Electrician on September 23, 2016, 08:07:04 amNo, because these were internal tests incorporating some of our projects so nothing that can be released (which shouldn't be surprising, though, an 8bit ADC oversampled to 10bit or 11bit will never reach the same performance of a true 12bit ADC).I'm not aware that anyone has done a public comparison that's really independent, though.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 11:29:04 am
content: Quote from: nfmax on September 23, 2016, 09:17:50 amI don't think they have, and considering that so far there's still only sparse documentation of their other technologies like X-Stream (which has been out there for over a decade) I wouldn't hold my breath that there will be more in the future.Unfortunately LeCroy is pretty poor when it comes to documentation.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 04:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: robert_ on September 22, 2016, 07:28:01 pmFor me it's exactly what I'd be looking for, as for the areas I work in 1-4Ghz is pretty much the 'bread and butter' range, and we've been waiting for better-than-8bit for a long time. The other HDO 12bit scopes are great but unfortunately lack the BW we need.But based on the specs and what is currently known I'm just not convinced that the HDO9000 is the right scope, tbh. I'm actually pretty disappointed. From where I stand, the Keysight DSO-S looks a lot better, if it only supported all serial protocols that the HDO supports.Which is a shame really as buying scopes in this class isn't as easy as buying entry-level scopes. At frequencies of 1Ghz and more you're looking into active probing, which is very costly, so being able to "stay" with a brand usually helps to protect that investment when scopes are refreshed. Because changing vendor not only means new scopes but new set of probes, too.

author: robert_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 07:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 23, 2016, 11:29:04 amActually there is:http://www.edn.com/electronics-products/electronic-product-reviews/other/4442666/10-bit-oscilloscopes-adjust-to-signal-conditionsThey could really throw in some more memory, doesnt cost that much.Looks like they reused some demux ASIC from the good old Waverunner 6 series, also being limited to 64M/Channel. Might not have been the smartest move to have that little memory, esp. when the slower and cheaper HDO4/6k have 256M/ch installed (sure, only the 6k can officially use all of it, but its there on both...)

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2016, 12:32:53 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 23, 2016, 04:12:37 pmDoes R&S have a competitive scope in this category? Remember you saying you didn't like RTO's UI implementation.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2016, 10:59:52 am
content: Quote from: robert_ on September 23, 2016, 07:39:53 pmThanks! Seems I missed that one.Quote from: Muxr on September 24, 2016, 12:32:53 amNo, they haven't. R&S has the RTO (recently refreshed as RTO2000), but that is a 8bit scope with an optional (paid for)16bit oversampling mode.The RTOs are good scopes with some nice featues, and the list of options is comparable to the DSO-S (and there's even an OCXO option which is nice). However the scope and everything else is very expensive, and the UI has always been received negatively in our evaluations (it's very flexible, but not fully thought through as often UI elements cover up important information, plus it's pretty cumbersome to setup). Also, the probe selection is really small, and the probes they offer are also expensive.Besides, I don't like how R&S appears to hide key information. A while ago I wanted to find out what the max FFT size is, especially since they make all this noise about their hardware-accelerated FFT. I couldn't find the figure in the specs, so I contacted R&S UK, got passed through R&S Germany, and ended with an engineer who went into length to tout their special architecture and how great it is, and that it works differently so there's no specific FFT memory size (yeah, sure), and so on. Unfortunately the scope itself doesn't seem to say how much memory it uses for FFT either so it could well use only a few Mpts where other scopes in that class use 25Mpts or even hundreds.It also seems that despite being late to doing their own scopes (they started 2009) they learned the game of bullshit marketing pretty fast.So as it stands I can't really recommend the RTO (the smaller scopes, why not). The probe situation alone would make me wary of investing in that platform, but charging extra for something like 16bit HiRes is silly, really. Even Keysight doesn't do that, and they charge you where they can just because

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2016, 10:28:06 pm
content: It's not bullshit, it's a fact of advanced FFT design that anyone who has made a FFT with "spectrum-analyzer-like controls" will be able to tell you.Averaging M FFTs of N points is is mathematically equivalent to calculating the FFT of the M*N points and taking every Mth point of the spectrum, but faster -- O(n) instead of O(n*ln(n) in time and O(1) instead of O(n) in memory. Multiply the M*N time-domain samples by a window function before taking the FFT and you convolve/smooth the frequency response that you would get *before* downsampling -- that is, you mix information from the bins that the fast technique discards into the bins it doesn't discard, resulting in the same process gain / noise floor and scalloping improvements as the M*N FFT while maintaining O(n) time cost and O(1) memory cost. Obviously with O(1) memory cost you can keep averaging until the cows come home, so it doesn't really make much sense to say it has a certain size to it.If you actually want M*N frequency bins, you're out of luck and you have to pay full t=O(n*ln(n)) s=O(n) price. If you just want the noise floor & scalloping benefits of a M*N FFT, you only have to pay t=O(n) s=O(1).> charging extra for something like 16bit HiResNow *that* is bullshit.

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2016, 11:01:29 am
content: Hdo9k vs S-Series is not easy not make a choice. You need to consider that the S-Series is a true 10bit ADC just at max sample rate (10Gs/s on 4 ch or 20Gs/s on 2 ch).It means that at 5-2-1Gs and 500Ms and below is just an 8 bit...So the LeCroy seems better.Then I see that LeCroy put the Enob on their datasheet and this is the key point...the effective number of bits,

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 11:06:18 am
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on September 24, 2016, 10:28:06 pmYou're right that the process you described isn't BS, but I'm not sure that this is the way the RTO does FFT (there are reasons why scopes do FFT the way they do).Anyways, the more worrying issue is the complete lack of information, which has pretty much been replaced by marketing speak.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 11:11:16 am
content: Quote from: madmax96 on September 26, 2016, 11:01:29 amYes, but you'd still be stuck with the tiny memory.QuoteListing ENOBs is nice but the figure can be misleading, as it depends on how the number was derived. And without that information it's just a number with little meaning.

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2016, 09:54:43 pm
content: Tiny memory...it depends on application. But typically when you are looking at signal with bw>=1Ghz (and so sample rate >=2Gs/s) , why do you need a memory higher that 100M points?I see needing of bigger memory for power application , not for fast signalAbout the Enob you are right, this is the point for every scope supplier.There is an IEEE recommendation that explain how to measure the Enob...this could be a good question to do to LeCroy technician

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2016, 08:20:37 am
content: Quote from: madmax96 on September 27, 2016, 09:54:43 pmI regularly capture long sequences for further analysis and more memory is always helping.Also, we're talking about high BW/high samplerate scopes here, and at 40GSa/s 128Mpts memory is only enough to capture a 3.2ms sequence (or 6.4ms on 20GSa/s). I agree that this isn't exactly bad but on the other side with the DSO-S I can capture up to 40ms at full sample rate (20GSa/s). The memory also affects FFT so the HDO9k can do 128Mpts vs up to 800Mpts on the DSO-S.I'd have expected a new scope to offer more memory than the predecessors (which for the HDO9000 is probably the WavePro 7zi-A with up to 256Mpts), not less. Plus the loss of some unique features which were really nice, like the swivelable/pivotable display on the WR6zi or the detachable frontpanel (which can be replaced with one with individual vertical controls) on the WP7zi(-A)/WM8zi(-A).