OT Panther tank found in mans basement. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 01:02:42 pm
content: and what do you have in your basement??http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-33381772Nice shape too. Apparently in running condition.I wonder how much of this is still out there somewhere.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 01:13:59 pm
content: I don't get it - why are they prosecuting him? It would have been melted down for scrap, and I can't see Hitler asking for it back. Do they not have militaria collectors in Germany?

author: KD0CAC John
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 01:34:18 pm
content: I should make contact to see what shipping would be

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 02:00:36 pm
content: If the BBC report is accurate, the owner may be a little less 'innocent' than we might reasonably assume......"Local prosecutors were tipped off about the cellar's contents by colleagues in Berlin, who searched the home for stolen Nazi art earlier this year.""He was chugging around in it during the snow catastrophe in 1978," Mayor Alexander Orth was quoted as saying. But he later added: "I took this to be the eccentricity of an old man, but it looks like there's more to it than that."I have no problem with Militaria collection and if the weapons are disabled to prevent use, they become inert. Tanks have always been a sensitive issue though. A Tank is one heck of a powerful machine, even without its weapons systems active. It remains a heavily armoured vehicle. A large Caterpillar tracked Bulldozer is likely as dangerous if abused, but then it is not armoured so the police feel more confident of stopping such.You can drive a Tank in the UK at various 'adult adventure centres' and I know of at least one Scorpion Tank in private hands that travels on public roads. In the UK we are quite tolerant of 'big boys toys'I recall an American soldier going on the rampage with a stolen US Army tank in 1995. The soldier was shot dead in the end as the risk to the community was so great.I hope the confiscated equipment goes to a good home in a museum.Aurora

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 03:18:17 pm
content: I have a friend locally who collects such things and has an armoured car along with other such items. The large gun can be kept intact but the 303 machine gun had to be replaced with a dummy that runs on propane, there is also a large collection of tanks etc just up the road on the coast as a tourist attraction, I also know of someone else who has a very large collection of bombs or rather the empty casings of them including several Russian ones, the RAF even borrows them for training purposes, I don't think they drop them its more ground drills like dismantling them.Strange here in the UK you cant own small arms very easily but if it's larger than a 2 inch bore the theory is you wont be able to find the ammunition for it so it's OK to own. You could have a 16 inch naval gun in your backyard if you want in full working order including an empty shell you only get into trouble if you start trying to get gun cotton by the 100 kilo's.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 03:41:42 pm
content: @G7PSK,I hope that the UK is considered a sensible country, though often our political leaders try to prove otherwiseAs you say, small arms are considered high risk due to their easy use for crime etc. I am very pleased that we enjoy an attitude from our Government that allows collectors to own historic weaponry. We are a country with a long history and it is good that we both collect and remember the weapons systems.From what I have read over the years, the Police are more concerned about war veterans who have innocently kept war trophies in their homes. These have often included British Army revolvers, German Lugar's, live ammunition (of all caliber's) and even live hand grenadesAll were small enough to smuggle home after the War's. They often come to light when the owner goes into a care home or on to the next life. EOD are then called to pay the house a visit and are sometimes surprised by what they find in the garden sheds, or on mantelpiece ! I worked with some EOD lads whilst in the Falkland Islands and and heard many fascinating stories regarding war relics they had to deal with....including UXB's stored in Garden Sheds !I suspect that Germany is a little more restrictive in its attitude. Such as the illegality of the Swastika symbol (Gammadion Cross). I cannot blame them for some sensitivity surrounding war memorabilia.It does look a nice condition Panther Tank though. I was always impressed with the German Tanks. Fine engineering for which Germany is famous.Aurora

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 08:39:28 pm
content: Actually construction equipment like dozers often have pretty thick armour on them, protecting the driver and the engine from being damaged by falling debris like building demolition or quarry work. Plenty enough to stop most small calibre rounds on most vehicles, unless you are stupid to leave the door open, which lets in dust. They put a pretty effective AC unit on them for that purpose.

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 10:35:39 pm
content: But he can keep his V1 rocket...http://www.shz.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/panorama/nach-razzia-waffennarr-darf-seine-v1-rakete-behalten-id10135046.html

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 10:38:11 pm
content: Does he take paypal though .

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 10:54:49 pm
content: Those are some amazing videos Aurora. I'd ask questions about killing the driver of the tank: yes he'd been threatening lives, but once he was caught on the highway divider he was powerless, given that they would have been worried he could break free again. Perhaps they didn't have anything non-lethal like tear gas available to put inside?Quote from: Deathwish on July 07, 2015, 10:38:11 pmShortly afterwards:Buyer: "You gave me a tracking number when you posted the item. Now it's arrived I can see that it's untracked."REFUND PLEASE

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 11:01:34 pm
content: @WhalesI have to agree regarding the US tank driver. I was shocked that they shot him dead. But then I do not know if he was carrying a side arm or what other potential threat he presented to the police officers and public.Aurora

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2015, 11:06:06 pm
content: The police would indeed be very fearful for their lives and I would hate to be the person that first looks in. As I understand pulling ordinary cars over is dangerous enough in some parts of the world and police have to assume that every driver is armed.Would the tank be designed to provide the occupant advantage over the intruder?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 01:59:23 am
content: But how big is the basement? Apparently he also had an anti-aircraft gun down there:

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 07:32:44 am
content: Quote from: daybyter on July 07, 2015, 10:35:39 pmThe Pulsjet Engines are really cool, every now and then you could pull the darn thing out of your basement and scare the crap out of your neighbors

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 08:21:32 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on July 07, 2015, 11:01:34 pmNot really. It's quite depressing the modus operandi of the US police appears to be shoot first ask questions later. Especially if your skin colour is a darker shade. They should learn a thing or two from our bobbies (ok, except for those Manchester ones that recently tasered and beat a young lad to death, mistaken identity).

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 08:29:33 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on July 08, 2015, 08:21:32 amOr the Met ones who shoot solicitors when their wives are having affairs with a Judge.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 08:36:52 am
content: Quote from: Deathwish on July 08, 2015, 08:29:33 amThe Manchester lot managed to shoot one of their own on a training day. Having said that, the only police that ever give me any concern are the French CRS. No guns, just big sticks, and a look in their eyes that suggests that their sole delight in life is to hit people with them.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 11:33:25 am
content: Last September I went to our local Ham Radio Club BBQ and as I arrived at the house I noticed all of the flashing blue lights about 300m away. Well, I was curious, so I went to see what all of the fuss was about, police had searched a guys basement and found a box of WWII hand grenades.This was about 7pm on a Friday evening and the bomb disposal people had to come from Koln (a two hour drive) as the local Frankfurt team didn't work weekends

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 11:43:54 am
content: I get the feeling if I rang plod here in the UK and said I had found a panther in someones basement they would send out the RSPCA.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 12:06:07 pm
content: Am I the only one wondering exactly how big the basement was.Or, given the difficulty of extracting said tank, how it got into the basement in the first place?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 12:14:17 pm
content: The problem with these German, Russian, American, and pretty much all our old colonies tanks is they don't equip them with a ministry regulation BV like the British Army. Though I believe the Indian armed forces have a BV fitted to their tanks too. A nod to the glorious civilised days of Empire I think, baahh!How the rest of the worlds armies manage without a good cup of chai in battle I don't know.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 12:26:45 pm
content: @grumpydoc,I suspect it was more like a bunkerBut seriously it would need to be pretty large to take a Panther and to support the weight it would need a decent floor. I suspect the issue of extracting the Panther was due to it not being in a drivable state and needing to be towed from its resting place by a large vehicle. Space may have been limited in front of the basement. Had the Panther been able to maneuver under its own power it may have just driven out and made a sharp left or right turn to exit.Saying that, the owner may have built his own little mini museum and placed the Panther in it without any intention for it to leave in the future. i.e. bricked it in. The Panther certainly looks to have been well cared for and repainted.I would be interested to know more about the owner. Is he a good or a bad man I wonder ?I hope the story continues to be covered, likely in militaria publications ?Aurora

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 12:36:09 pm
content: The owner is Klaus Flick, he bought the Panther in the UK from a scrap yard. There's an article about the recovery somewhere. It was partially cut up, including the gun barrel, so he did restore it.Someone made pictures of the article in the comments of this Facebook post:https://www.facebook.com/Panzerfabrik/posts/1041639365846536

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 01:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on July 08, 2015, 12:36:09 pmBwhahaaa. Herr Flick... (for those not in the know : Her Flick is a main character in the british comedy series Allo-Allohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herr_Otto_Flick)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 02:09:23 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on July 08, 2015, 12:36:09 pmI love this comment:They need to drain his local lake to find the u_boat

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 02:24:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 08, 2015, 02:09:23 pmMaybe that's the submarine Finland was looking for. The guy was on holiday

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 03:42:33 pm
content: @rollatorwieltjeThanks for the link and info.On the face of it this looks like a very silly situation on many levels.1. What idiot in the UK scraps a beautiful Panther tank ?2. The tank was shipped into Germany from the UK and is documented so not exactly a secret 'stash'3. What brainless idiot raised seizure order on a tank that was demiliterized and documented ?4. If the facebook comments are accurate.... what idiot wants to scrap three British Churchill Tanks and this one as well ? Such destruction of historic artifacts should be criminal vandalism.5. It would almost appear that the prosecutors just want to punish the collector using red tape.6. I see no comments on the collector being a bad person and he was a child in WWII so he is no war criminal. He is obviously a committed WWII collector and that is not a crime in my opinion. I suspect he is so keen on the WWII period that the prosecutors in Berlin thought that he might have some art stolen during the War. That seems very aggressive on the part of the authorities.7. Are the German authorities so petty as to try to punish anyone who is fascinated with WWII. It happened, it can't be undone and I feel no ill will towards Germany these days. Time for the establishment to accept what happened and move on in this case me thinks.8. Give the man his toys back I say.Aurora

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 04:10:58 pm
content: In the U.S., we would make this guy put the tracks back on so it could be driven in the next local parade.I'm curious as to what this person has been accused of as to merit this sort of treatment. We fought the Germans in WWII, but even our own military would not consider destroying German historical artifacts. We have German tanks and aircraft right next to our own in museums.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 04:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 08, 2015, 04:10:58 pmI have been to the tank museum at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds. An amazing place. It was very moving to take pictures of and stand next to the historical artifacts. I saw families with small children and even they were quiet and well behaved as if instinctively realizing that this wasn't the place to misbehave.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 04:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 08, 2015, 04:10:58 pmDoes nothing about that statement make you feel sick to the stomach just a little bit? The whole idea of a local parade...I'm going to reserve judgement on his treatment until more information comes out so in the future I may change stance, but my gut feeling right now is that he should be commended for restoring and preserving things many (including myself) would see as obsolete and fit for nothing but melting down until they realise how few are left.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 04:45:42 pm
content: OOOOops ! Look what happens if you pull out in front of a tankI bet the 18 year old lady driver (who was unhurt) will be more careful at junctions in future.http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/03/british-battle-tank-crushes-womans-car-in-germanyAurora

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 05:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on July 08, 2015, 04:25:35 pmNope. I see no point in running away from history. These artifacts help us remember. Hopefully we remember the lesson to not ever do it again.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2015, 06:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 08, 2015, 05:56:04 pmI agree. History tends to repeat itself especially if we forget the history. The stupidity to put our ingenuity at work in order to kill eachother...

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 08:04:59 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on July 08, 2015, 08:21:32 amIt is not really surprising that the US police shoot so quickly, I read recently that at least one police officer is killed a day in the US whilst on duty, seems that they are considered fair game by some US citizens.As for scrapping tanks after the war many such items ended up in the scrap yard and some of the yards did not cut them all up but hung onto them in order to sell whole at a future point, also the army takes older tanks and uses them for target practice and testing new anti tank shells, after a while they are to shot up and get hauled to the scrap yard and newer models put in their place for targets.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 02:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 08, 2015, 05:56:04 pmOh I don't see the point in running away from history, I just don't like local parades/fairs/etc lol.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 05:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 09, 2015, 04:10:04 pmWhat about option 3: erm, don't run away from the police?As for your ridiculous statement about the Met police, they didn't murder Ian Tomlinson, he died of a heart attack due to a life of alcohol and heroin abuse.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 06:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on July 09, 2015, 05:35:09 pmYes, it's the duty of every citizen to be fit and healthy in order to survive a vicious unprovoked assault by police.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 06:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on July 09, 2015, 05:35:09 pmNo, he died of internal bleeding brought on by abdominal trauma. His elbow struck his liver when he fell.Yes, his own abuse left him vulnerable to this, but he didn't just fall over.

author: Jesset1996.5
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 07:01:56 pm
content: Dang! How big is this mans basement? An ati aircraft gun, a tank and a torpedo! I shure hope it all went to a museum, they look like there in great condition!

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 12:15:40 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 09, 2015, 06:32:11 pmand "Yes, it's the duty of every citizen to be fit and healthy in order to survive a vicious unprovoked assault by police"The copper who pushed him over was known to be an arsehole, and the shove was a dickish thing to do, but it was hardly "vicious assault". Be VERY careful.of calling this murder - if YOU accidentally bump in to someone in the street, and that person happens to be a smackhead on deaths door who falls over and later dies due to having such a weak grasp on life - do you think that YOU should be held accountable for their death?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 08:49:26 am
content: Quote from: Delta on July 10, 2015, 12:15:40 amHe didn't commit murder, but surely manslaughter.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 09:09:22 am
content: Quote from: Delta on July 09, 2015, 05:35:09 pmHow about young men on underground trains then.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2015, 09:16:50 am
content: Guys, the gun/cops/murder stuff ends now please.