Ventilator made from car parts - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:00:32 am
content: usual marketing bull from musk. most of the components are not electric car parts at all. The only thing they have to offer is a screen and maybe an ECU that has enough IO to be adapted. If they want to help they should start to build components for existing models.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:06:51 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 06, 2020, 07:00:32 amDid you even watch the video? Many of the parts are from their cars, like the air mixing chamber and many valves.They even show you them in flowchart form and in their working prototype.I kinda expected more from a Moderator.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:21:22 am
content: Not just valves but all kinds of sensors. A Model 3 for example has airflow, air temperature, gas pressure sensors that surely got adapted here as well. That makes it a closed loop controlled system proper.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:29:40 am
content: why does an electric car need air mixing? where is the sensor that determines when the patient needs to exhale?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:30:07 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 06, 2020, 07:06:51 amWhat the hell is that supposed to mean?

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:35:17 am
content: It doesn't.. they're using the (Model 3 I think?) air suspension compressed air storage tank as the "mixer". They're re-purposing car parts, not necessarily using them exactly as they were intended..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:37:08 am
content: must be the same canisters they were going to make the sub out of to rescue the boys lost in the caves.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:40:03 am
content: You know, knowing how it is working for that company, I guarantee you those people are putting in 24/7 hours of hard effort (even if it is simply a marketing thing in the end). Give those engineers some credit, if anyone can pull this off, it's those guys.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:44:26 am
content: Quote from: uer166 on April 06, 2020, 07:40:03 amThen you better show them the video I posted. They are doing the same as every other person trying to capitalize on this, making an air pump that will do more harm than good. They actually did not explain how it works, it's just a lash up of parts that will do more harm than good.Strangely (not) the government in the Uk have stopped talking about dyson, I guess he has suddenly discovered that a ventilator is more than a pump and that to make one properly would mean that as he does not know what he is doing would mean so much more IP coming from the medical company that he partnered with that they would own more copyright and fame than him.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:51:26 am
content: I can get behind some of those criticisms, they are valid. However, a modern EV shares a lot of similar parts with a ventilator, including air purification and flow control, temperature control, pressure sensing, etc etc. And if they partner withsomeone who knows their shit, maybe something good can happen. I.e. a simple reliable enough ventilator that doesn't tap into real medical part resources to make. They actually put effort into some amount of redundancy and safety (notice an entire VCRight ECU used as a watchdog on whiteboard). This is not an average Arduino/Home Depot build.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:52:55 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 06, 2020, 07:44:26 amTheir crude prototype does have various sensors including flow and pressure sensors on the inhale line, therefore the software should be able to detect the patient trying to take the breath and monitor pressure and flow, and they also talked about maintaining the minimum static pressure on exhale, etc. as covered in the RE video (that you beat me to posting.)Not that I think they should be creating a new design either, but theydidat least realize some of the basics.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:55:44 am
content: It's incredible isn't it. All these years companies that make ventilators have been ruining their profits by using over complex designs and unnecessary parts. What a bunch of useless idiots ventilator makers are over complicating it so much when all you need is a "bunch" of car parts

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 07:58:00 am
content: Dude, you're missing the point. IfrealMedical ventilator manufacturers can tap into car or rocket parts as alternates, to manufacture their designs, wouldn't you let them?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 08:35:30 am
content: Dude, your missing the point, they can't!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 09:37:31 am
content: Quote from: drussell on April 06, 2020, 07:52:55 amThey should. In the begging of the video guy says they design it in this way to not tap into limited existing ventilator supply chain. You can only make as many devices as parts you can source.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 09:41:54 am
content: FYI Simonhttps://twitter.com/Medtronic/status/1246449963304914945https://twitter.com/MedtronicCEO/status/1246452743851716608Quote

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 09:46:23 am
content: Interesting. This one looks actually looks credible and viable. Key point being constrained tidal volume and assistive and forced ventilation.Definitely better than "arduino and some bits of perspex" which is what the universities seem to be capable of producing and "looks pretty but lacking in real details" which is what Dyson appear to be producing but is entirely irrelevant to the job.Let's hope Musk doesn't call someone at Medtronic a pedophile.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 10:08:23 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 06, 2020, 09:46:23 amDepends on if they tell him to stick his car parts up his arse. Essentially what are the limitations on current supply, that is the first problem. I am sure that anyone that makes parts for ventilators does not just make parts for ventilators, so they have spare capacity and they will be compelled morally and by their government to only build those parts.I made an order with samtec for some headers. I was warned that the usual delivery times will not apply as they are only running at 60% capacity due to the pandemic and most of their manufacture is at the behest of the government for medical equipment. For other parts increasing production at other companies with similar equipment by maybe duplicating tooling is still faster than rocket man pulling a publicity stunt.How is Dyson getting on with his ventilators by the way? it's gone quiet....

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 10:19:58 am
content: Dyson were disqualified from the purchasing (as were G-tech) because the government were focusing on stripping existing designs down to minimal hardware and exploring industrial engineering companies rather than consumer shite pushers.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 10:58:38 am
content: Compared to some of the crude air pumps with a fixed rate / volume the Tesla part may actually work. At least it looks like the got the basics right.They don't show the details on how the control is handled. Chances are there is still some of the software missing, but as far as I can tell the HW side may actually work and have the capability. With the valves there may be the problem, that the same or similar parts may be used in the regular designs too - so they may even compete for the same parts.Overall the design does not look that much different from the proper medical ones in use. The difference and higher price comes from certification, high reliability / testing, insurance and in normal times relatively low volumes. Normally there is quite a bit of extra paperwork going with such a critical medical device. It starts with the disclaimers in essentially all normal electronics part that do no allow the use in life support devices.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 11:00:27 am
content: Unfortunately all those quickly hacked together ventilators will become e-junk after we'll have survived the corona virus, because none of them will get a standard approval. All they get is a temporary emergency permission.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 11:06:50 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 06, 2020, 10:19:58 amOh, funny how that was not put in the news. His name was all over the news and by the sounds of it fake news at that as he was not going to do anything until he passed the criteria but they talked as though it was a done deal. Then a fuss was made about Gtech and Dysons name was never mentioned again so mainstream joe public probably still think Dyson us making ventilators.

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 12:51:45 pm
content: I don't know if it's still true but didn't repair shops have problems sourcing spare/replacement parts for Tesla cars? I had a friend that bought a Tesla but he got into an accident and couldn't have his Tesla repaired for a couple months due to lack of availability for a couple of parts. If that is still the case then using their designed ventilator will likely still not address the supply problem.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 12:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 06, 2020, 11:06:50 amHere's a reference to G-tech:https://www.malverngazette.co.uk/news/18345951.worcester-firm-gtech-coronavirus-ventilator-not-used-not-meet-government-standards-city-mp-robin-walker-says/I can't find the reference to Dyson. Existing designs are preferred here for obvious reasons:https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/23/carmakers-make-nhs-ventilators-coronavirus-uk-government-nissan-rolls-royceAFAIK they said they were going to order stuff from Dyson but it went quiet suddenly and then "existing designs" started appearing suggesting that the existing manufacturers creating something from scratch was more of a risk than a benefit (I agree with this). To note the original Dyson proposal came from their own press releases rather than the government.Tesla's design is based on an existing design repurposed with off the shelf parts that can be mass produced already so that's sort of in the middle.Edit: I understand the Smiths paraPac is what they used to stuff in ambulances. Not sure what's in there now. That's probably got the most amount of users out there who know how to fix it and work with it and can pass knowledge on.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 01:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 06, 2020, 11:00:27 amI'm waiting to see if they'll even get that.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 01:30:51 pm
content: Indeed. I doubt they will get approval any time soon because quite frankly it's a shitty idea which will lead to even shittier headlines."Dyson blows out my nan's lungs"Also my why the fuck do two vacuum cleaner companies jump up to the cause suddenly. That's like hiring the bin guys to sort your IT problem out.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 01:43:48 pm
content: Dyson got themselves an article all to themselves on the BBC website. But the BBC are useless. They take very little facts to make something up and they keep editing the damn articles.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 01:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 06, 2020, 01:30:51 pmAhah. Well, you could argue that companies with good knowledge and technology for pushing air in and out are better positioned to do this than others.Unfortunately, the air pushing part is only a very small part (however weird that may sound to the layman) of the design of a medical ventilator.And that's the same point with many, if not most of current ventilator projects that are blooming. People are focusing (so to speak...) on just the tip of the iceberg.Meanwhile, that's some "free" advertising for companies that are currently (like many others) experiencing a drastic slowdown in sales.The car industry in particular has seen something like (from what I've seen recently) -70% decrease in sales in the last month in countries that have implemented confinement.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 02:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 06, 2020, 09:37:31 amIndeed. I think it would be more helpful if they were able to manufacture parts required for existing designs to be able to ramp up production more quickly.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 03:00:23 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 06, 2020, 10:19:58 amHave you got a source for that bit of information.Because my search, seems to indicate they are still going ahead with it.E.g. From around 1 week ago (JCB, are making parts for the Dyson ventilator).https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11291396/coronavirus-jcb-factory-ventilators-nhs/Google can't seem find anything saying they (government, or anyone) have stopped (Dyson).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 03:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on April 06, 2020, 02:53:41 pmAgreed.Focus on helping existing production units ramp up production, not on reinventing the wheel.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 03:21:37 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 06, 2020, 03:16:28 pmSpacex produces valve for Medtronic. Also you cannot simply start making components sourced from various manufacturers. You'd need to design an alternative component and build production line first. (Talking about reinventing the wheel).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 03:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on April 06, 2020, 03:00:23 pmI had a link but I can't find the damn thing now. It was reputable as well.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 03:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 06, 2020, 03:26:06 pmThe following article, seems to say (from around 1.5 weeks ago), that Dyson and the Goverment, are giving differing stories about the 10,000 ordered ventilators.Quotehttps://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/dyson-to-produce-ventilators-for-nhs-during-coronavirus-1-6579684

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 03:57:53 pm
content: Hmm interesting. Time will tell what the deal is. I'm sure it'll turn into some scandal at some point....

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 04:40:34 pm
content: The deal is the usual, james dyson is a lying bastard, remember the 0 carbon emissions motors in his vacuum cleaner?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 04:43:45 pm
content: Oh and the British made Singapore outsourcing brexit supporting cuntery as well...

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 02:25:54 am
content: Quote from: wraper on April 06, 2020, 03:21:37 pmThere are many components that can be produced reliably on "prototype-style" equipment, like CNC machining individual parts on generic machines instead of on a regular "production line." If some generic equipment that is sitting idle can be put to use producing parts and pieces, fab some PCBs and assemble them with components, etc. on some additional production line, even if it is small-quantity production, if some auxiliary production lines here and there can produce high quality, repeatable parts, that would probably actually be the most helpful in the end.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 02:52:19 am
content: Quote from: madires on April 06, 2020, 11:00:27 amThat's not good of course, but at least better than many people becoming landfill instead.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 05:47:26 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on April 07, 2020, 02:52:19 amDonate them to a developing nation. There are many parts of the world that are not encumbered by the regulations in more "civilized" regions where they are currently getting by with much less.I don't really understand the attitudes some have about this stuff, companies are stepping up to the plate and taking action that could save thousands of lives and people crap on the whole idea with what-ifs. When there's an adequate supply of certified machines to meet the demand then we can stop building stopgap hardware. Until then you do what you gotta do. Then moaning about a company getting some publicity? So what? If they accomplish anything at all they deserve some publicity, I'd ask of the armchair experts complaining what are *you* doing to increase the supply of needed ventilators?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 08:07:28 am
content: Quote from: drussell on April 07, 2020, 02:25:54 amCNC's are not prototype equipment. They are used for production. Their advantage in prototyping is that they do not need part specific tools making but for some items in large volumes there are faster cheaper ways of making them like casting or a combination of casting and finishing on a CNC. My employer has the equivalent of die cast boxes CNC machined all the time as we can achieve shapes and features you can't get on a commercial box and it is still competitive.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 08:09:19 am
content: Indeed. Not only that, CNC machines are used to finish production cast parts for example as well like engine blocks and to mill new parts like crankshafts.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 08:11:30 am
content: Yea, anything needing good torque properties will be lathed from extruded bar, a cast shaft would be more likely to shatter.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:01:51 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 06, 2020, 01:20:45 pmEven if the DIY stuff never gets temporary approval. The doctors and healthcare staff wont care, they will still use it.All those DIY home laser cut and 3D printed face shields people are making aren't tested/approved but they're still being used in hospitals all over the place. With medical staff very happy to have something vs nothing.If no medical ventilators are available but 10 people need one to make it through the night the medical staff will use whatever they can get ahold of. Even if it's not approved or not even medical equipment at all.The typical rules, where hospitals won't try anything risky for fear of getting sued, are ignored in situations like this.There's only so many times you can turn up to work and see people die because you don't have the gear to save them before you stop caring about company policy or rules in general.If anyone from a hospitals legal team turns up in the ER saying.."You can't use that, it's not approved" they're likely to get punched in the face at best, or end up getting drugged, tied up and forgotten about in a utility room at worst.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on April 07, 2020, 12:01:51 pmIt's not legal problem. Those things are medical ventilators in same manner that bicycle tire pump is a medical ventilator.Watch the video.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ventilator-made-from-car-parts/msg3001626/#msg3001626And then, probably, you will understand why a real MD will not connect anybody to such contraption.... It is not a real ventilator, it's a Rube Goldberg contraption made by people who don't understand real problem and is equivalent to elementary school science project.

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:36:03 pm
content: The fundamental difference here, in the Tesla Ventilator approach is that they are starting with an actual, proven on-the-self-available-in-the-tens-of-thousands supply chain that can "simply" be redirected from being built into 1000 cars a day (tesla produced 367,000 cars in 2019, that's 1000 for every day of the year! park 1000's cars in a line and you'll understand how impressive that actually is...) to being built into 1000 ventilators a day!Yes, like any other knocked together and un-certified ventilator project, that may of may not be useful, but at least it is actually VIABLE unlike most/all the other lets-design-a-new-ventilator projects

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 07, 2020, 12:28:09 pmThat doesn't matter.I will restateThere's only so many times you can turn up to work and see people die because you don't have the gear to save them before you stop caring about company policy or rules in general.If it moves air in and out the medical staff will connect it to a person because 'no air moving in and out' is not a valid option!eg You can worry about weather or not the lubrication in the pump was medical grade later,

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: max_torque on April 07, 2020, 12:36:03 pmI agree with you. They are QUALIFIED to make mechanical pump part. And that part works. It's the other stuff as air humidifier, and breath control and monitoring electronics and systems integration that makes the medical ventilator. And without it it is dangerous to patients..

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:46:08 pm
content: @Psi...Not really. That line of thought only works until:1. You inflate someone like a cane toad, followed by a loud pop and bits of lung everywhere by accident because the equipment wasn't qualified and tested properly.2. You turn a viable outcome into a poor outcome or life long disability because someone gets a lung full of machine oil.3. It fails after 3 hours and kills the patient silently.4. You get an American lawyer anywhere in the process.Rules and standards are there for a reason. There's no space for iteration in these things.I've worked on "safety critical systems" albeit ones that are supposed to kill only the people you point them at (I regret this if I'm honest) and the standards there are as high as the medical side of things. There are whole teams of people who's jobs are to come up with what ifs.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:48:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 07, 2020, 12:46:08 pmThey're not stupid, they not going to put anyone on a non-approved ventilator unless it's a last resort to keep them alive.In those situations it really doesn't matter if it fails and kills the patient because it was the only thing keeping them alive to start with.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:49:53 pm
content: They're not going to do it without consent and there's no mechanism for consent then.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:53:46 pm
content: Needing consent goes out the window in a disaster situation.It's run more like a military hospitalThey do the best they can with what they have.They get so numb from all the stress and death that the idea of being brought before a medical board and fired actually starts to sounds nice because it's quiet and no one is dying.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 12:57:58 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on April 07, 2020, 12:41:39 pmWatch the video. And you will see that connecting people to a pump that mechanically moves air in and out will KILL them... Especially if they have damaged lungs...Hand pumps work only of short periods of time and are administered by a trained operators who match squeezing with patients breathing. Or those who are being revived and have no natural motion of air in their lungs and there is nothing to lose. As soon as a person is revived, they stop bagging them and give them oxygen mask..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 01:20:41 pm
content: It looked like they are using precompressed air so no pump. there was no mention of the patient sensors that get the machine working with the patient not against them destroying their lungs. I did hear talk of working out how one ventilator could be used on two people, I don't doubt that he politician that said that too near a medic got hit and not heard nothing since.Again at best if the parts can be used in a current design do that.

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 01:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 07, 2020, 12:46:08 pmAt what point does a battle become a war, and other options become viable?That is what we are talking about here potentially? Unfortunately, as in most wars, the actual statistics, without which descisions had to be made anyway, will only become understandable when it's too late, after the war has finished. For example, overall, if a bodged together ventilator saves more people than otherwise woudl have died, then it's correct to use it, as it was an overal "greater good". only after the crisis has passed will that information become available and reliable

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 01:47:24 pm
content: They need to seperate the project in two parts, the human interfacing bit and the electro mechanical bit. The human interface is the hard bit so try and ramp production of that part of it and then interface that to any mechanics that will do the job.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 01:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: max_torque on April 07, 2020, 01:28:39 pm+1 to this fact.And Tesla knows this all too well.Tesla autopilot will never be perfect and it will/has made wrong decisions that killed people but as long as it's saving more lives than it's killing then it's a good thing.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 02:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 07, 2020, 12:28:09 pmExactly.(But yes it is a legal problem too. If some patient dies after being connected to one of those dodgy respirators, the family is very likely to sue. Wouldn't you?)As I often say, just ask yourself if you'd be OK with some close relative being treated with this.Now you may keep answering that it would be better than nothing. Which, first, is not necessarily the case as 2N3055 pointed out. But second, there comes the question of whoever gets treated with the real deal and whoever gets the "dodgy" stuff. (Inequalities are already there. Just look at the Boris Johnson case. He was directly put in ICU just in case, whereas the average joe who gets hospitalized in a similar state would just get isolated in a room full of other patients until their symptoms get so bad they need to be transfered to ICU. BJ was not in a life-critical state when he was transfered to ICU AFAIK. And I bet he would get a proper respirator if alternative ones were available. Just a side-thought...)As to the point of these projects potentially saving more lives than they would kill, we have absolutely ZERO proof of that by nature as they wouldn't get a chance to be properly tested clinically as they should before being deployed.Now as I said above, I'm all for companies HELPING medical device companies in any sane way they can, under proper supervision. That's a different story. But suddenly improvising, not so much.Anyway, as many of us have said, there are so many ways people can currently help the world that just improvising medical devices doesn't make much sense IMHO.This pandemic is putting the whole world on hold and is going to have lasting effects way beyond health problems.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 03:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: max_torque on April 07, 2020, 01:28:39 pmThis is not a war. We need to consider more than just the body count which is what the stats portray gleefully, but the patient's overall health outcome as well. If someone leaves that ventilator with extensive physical injury but alive that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to have a good quality of life outcome. Does being permanently disabled from heart and nervous system damage and requiring dialysis from kidney failure sound like fun?That's my father-in-law for reference who is on ventilation with proper equipment for this at the moment who luckily probably isn't going to make it and I'm sure because I know him well, would not want to be chucked on a hacked up ventilator as a last resort so he can life the rest of his life in misery with no escape while someone fanfares over the body count improvement...Edit: A point I'd like to add is we don't know what the health outcomes are going to be without thorough analysis and we don't even have enough data to rationalise that without introducing new variables into the recovery outcomes like equipment which is new and untrusted.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 04:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 07, 2020, 12:28:09 pmI've got some news for you. Real MDs are already doing crazy unapproved hacks like connecting multiple patients up to a single ventilator designed for one person. People with your attitude are going to result in potentially many additional deaths. "We can't do this right so we'll just do nothing" and when we run out of ventilators people die.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 05:02:12 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 07, 2020, 02:21:29 pmYes! Absolutely! I would personally connect my own mother to a device some kid built in his bedroom if it looked like it might actually work and she was almost certain to die without it. I cannot comprehend why anyone would even question this? It boggles my mind how regulations and rules would even be discussed in such a situation.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 05:39:43 pm
content: I think that’s up to the patient isn’t it? You’re potentially asking for someone to suffer for your emotional attachment. I still remember the look in my grandmothers eyes when they brought her back the second time from cardiac arrest while she was dying from cancer. It was a cross between sheer terror and annoyance that she had to suffer longer. Fortunately the third time didn’t work the day after and she passed away without hours of intense suffering.Quote from: james_s on April 07, 2020, 04:55:39 pmReal MDs would know the contamination risk between patients. Perhaps you don’t have any real MD’s there. Based on my relatively simple knowledge of ventilation that wouldn’t work or even make sense for invasive ventilation anyway so I call bull shit.People are shallow and hold on to every little grasp of life without thought for the patient and their wishes. That’s universal.

author: noname4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 06:10:03 pm
content: The humidifier part can actually be bolted on using a separate humidifier. This is not mandatory for short term use anyway.https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Humidifier-for-baby-ventilator-CPAP_60818792542.htmlis an example of what I mean...What Tesla have designed is viable as a ventilator - albeit without many of the other features normally available on standard ventilators.He has pressure sensing incorporated on the ventilator...In terms of getting through an acute shortage of ventilators it's a good solution.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8136299/Doctors-turns-one-ventilator-nine-genius-DIY-mechanics.htmlQualified MD ventilating 9 patients using a single ventilator.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 06:20:50 pm
content: He’s also running it way out of spec. He’s a quack and will probably end up with 9 dead patients. Also the source is risky even to use as toilet paper.

author: noname4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 06:22:58 pm
content: If it lasts for the duration of time the patients need it - the alternative being that 8 of them die anyway - is that not a good thing?He has a PhD in respiratory medicine - I would trust his judgement on this, unless you are similarly qualified? (Check the tweet out, it links to it - I agree re: Daily Mail)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 06:29:20 pm
content: I’m sure it lasts the first 8 patients. Maybe not the next 8. And I’d like more than the trite factoids to be presented by the daily mail which as a distinct reputation of spouting utter bullshit and distorting reality.I’ll take a second opinion thanks. I can get one if I need it easily enough...

author: noname4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 06:31:35 pm
content: I just wanted to underline the severity of the situation:The government is pushing through device approvals at the moment such that a lot of the required safety documentation and testing is being curtailed - this only happens if there is a dire need.Yes, normally approvals take a long time, and have a necessarily rigorous V&V cycle. They are also produced by companies which have the approvals in place to produce such devices.The ventilator group - I don't know for certain if it actually has such certification, although the automotive industry is similarly well controlled.It really in unprecedented, the way that everyone is working to a single aim to get these designed and produced in the shortest possible time. Don't know if I'll ever see it again in my lifetime (hopefully not).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 06:25:18 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 07, 2020, 05:39:43 pmWhat are you talking about?! Are you seriously suggesting that dying of Covid is a painless and peaceful exit? Are you suggesting that Covid is the same situation as terminal cancer? I'm talking about people who stand a chance of making a nearly full recovery with treatment vs virtually certain death without treatment. Would you *seriously* not try an un-approved but apparently functional ventilator on someone who was virtually guaranteed to die without it? Holy hell, I certainly hope if I end up in that position that I've got a doctor who is less concerned about consent and more willing to try anything they have at their disposal to save me. If it ends up killing me, well at least they tried, the alternative of dying by drowning slowly in my own juices does not sound like an improvement. A lack of approval does not automatically mean something is dangerous or ineffective.I'm honestly baffled that someone would even suggest it's better to throw our hands up and let who knows how many people die because we know we can't get a sufficient number of certified machines. That's just... wow.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 07:40:29 am
content: My point is it’s a hell of a lot more complicated than “saving lives” and people “living happily ever after” and throwing new untested technology into the mix can have a net negative on quality of life outcomes. Your point disregards nearly all of the complex matters and the probabilistic outcomes of forced ventilation.

author: noname4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 11:16:48 am
content: It might be helpful to read through the specs of what is being designed - it isn't simply connecting someone up to an air compressor...https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-ventilator-supply-specification/rapidly-manufactured-ventilator-system-specificationThey are doing things properly, but with speed

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 11:46:24 am
content: Quote from: noname4me on April 08, 2020, 11:16:48 amWho does?What you linked is exactly proof how all these "open crap respirators" and such are piece of crap, despite fact that many of those people have good intentions.You linked to professionally made specification by people that know what are they talking about.Read it carefully, and than go and, one by one, check all those "cowboy breathing devices" and tell us how many would have those specifications, parts and operating principle.Those that do comply with those specs are not "improvised devices", but real respirators, and than it can be argued if those can be used without formal approval process, and just after good functional test.Those that don't have all the functions listed there are simply not respirators, and are dangerous by design, because they cannot be used as respirators.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 11:52:20 am
content: What he linked to is what *we* are talking about, emergency build requirements for min spec COVID respirators thrown together in a hurry, exactly what Tesla is doing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 12:12:12 pm
content: And it still has to go through validation and approval...

author: noname4me
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 12:30:26 pm
content: QuoteI think this is what I was referring to in the context of this discussion...

author: jeffheath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 02:53:16 pm
content: This forum is in just as much of a panic as anyone else. There just needs to be some kind of standardized test that can evaluate these ventilators, to see how they perform. It doesn't have to be approved testing, and I wouldn't think it would need to take months either. The companies that make ventilators must have some form of testing their ventilators, so maybe they can streamline their testing process (as well as share their equipment and procedures) so we can have real data on how each new ventilator performs.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 03:36:24 pm
content: It can't be stressed enough, the real challenge is the firmware, i.e. how to control the ventilator to support the patient breathing. When it's not done right the ventilator will damage the patient's lung. And the doctor must be able to monitor breathing and to adjust parameters if necessary. That takes a lot of effort and time for research, testing and optimization, unless you've already designed ventilators and can take shortcuts for a new design. No manufacturer of approved ventilators will give away their IP to anyone hacking together ventilators. The only reasonable way to ramp up production numbers is licensing the production to other companies to manufacture exact copies of the original design. All the hype about taking parts from a car's AC or 3D-printing is simply PR nonsense.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 05:42:22 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 10, 2020, 03:36:24 pmYes, yes and yes.

author: jeffheath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 04:42:49 am
content: Quote from: madires on April 10, 2020, 03:36:24 pmSo basically any unapproved ventilator probably won't be optimized enough to operate at the precise level of control needed to perform well, and making a machine with the proper sensors/equipment to quickly "test" a ventilator would be harder to do than simply licensing the ventilator design?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 10:51:12 am
content: I think so. The ventilator has to adjust itself to the patient's breathing. Simply forcing air down the throat will harm the patient. A quick ventilator test won't work because you would have to check several profiles (taken from patients) which also change during the day based on activity (awake, sleeping, pain, stress, ...). But a test machine could be used for QC in the production.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 03:50:29 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 10, 2020, 03:36:24 pm^^ this !I don't know about medical, but in other industries approval is given to themanufacturing processnot just the design. So for example if the assembly calls for bolts correctly torqued, are the staff trained to do that? Is there a record of that? Are the tools calibrated regularly? Is there a record of that?Really this is a case of Dunning-Kruger on the general scale. Even people involved with managing a project, seem to think it is easier than it is and express the opinion "anyone could do this, right?" So it doesn't surprise me at all that a company like Dyson would say "of course our brilliant engineers can makeanything* in a week!" and people in government would believe that.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 03:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 10, 2020, 05:42:22 pmI strongly agree whith both.The only company in Italy that builds ventilator was called by the Government:- They blocked a delivery to a foreign customer to reserve all available units for Italy- The got help from the Army so workforce could be increased- They called for help to all their subcontractors (even in the current lockdown situation, which makes very difficult for small subcontractros to even open the doors)- They got help from big Companies like Ferrari, Fiat and Magneti Marelli for sourcing parts on international markets and building non-critical parts .But final production and tests are done by the original manufacturer, in their approved plant.It seems to work.Here is a link (in Italian, but Google can help)https://forbes.it/2020/03/24/coronavirus-respiratori-ferrari-fca-e-siare-produzione-ventilatori-polmonari/Best regards

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 04:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: ciccio on April 12, 2020, 03:55:58 pmGoogle translated:QuoteSounds like a joke in current situation.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 05:35:22 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on April 12, 2020, 03:50:29 pmYes, this is exactly the same for medical devices. But it's not just about the manufacturing process either. The whole company, outside of any given product, is also certified in order to be able to get any product further approved. It includes almost any part of the company, including sales, HR, etc.What it means is that even if a company were following every step of an approved manufacturing process to the letter, it would still need to get an appropriate certification such as ISO13485.Does that make things heavy? Sure does.Should some shortcuts be taken in exceptional circumstances? Certainly as long as it doesn't compromise safety. Which is not an easy matter.But should we do just anything just because we are in a hurry? I don't think so. It's usually the worst approach possible.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 05:46:48 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 12, 2020, 04:36:46 pmThe number of intensive care units in Italy was 5324 before COVID emergency.The Government plan to increase it by at least 2000 units in the shorter possible time.New hospitals have been built or converted, but there is a great shortage of doctors, nurses and other medical professonal.Now, luckily, the numbers are going down and hospitals have free intensive care units.2000 units will maybe suffice (but I read that some units are being imported or donated by other countries).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 05:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: ciccio on April 12, 2020, 05:46:48 pm40% increase over several months is a complete fail in regards of what's actually needed in current situation. Which means this approach does not work efficiently.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 03:12:14 am
content: There comes a blow to delusional wannabe ventilator engineers trying to save the world.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-ventilator/uk-cancels-order-for-simple-ventilators-needs-more-complex-ones-source-idUSKCN21U0UI

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 07:05:36 am
content: 9Quote from: wraper on April 12, 2020, 05:49:01 pmI don't know if another approach could be more efficient.How could you build more units from a single certified factory, respecting all the requirement imposed by the certification process?Maybe this should have been done many years ago, when the WHO advised every country to prepare for a pandemic but most countries did not.Build a lot of ventilators, a lot of intensive care units, increase spending on medical staff, pay them more so they will not study here (in public universities, funded with taxpayer's money) than leave the country for better paying places.In Milan they were capable of buliding a new hospital in less than two weeks, but it is not fully used.There are not enought doctors and nurses, even with the help of professionals that came from Albania , Russia and other eastern countries.Now the situation (at least here in Italy) seems to be better.When this will end, a lot of things must be changed, and not only in Italy...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 10:02:54 am
content: Updates for UK situation:https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-ventilator/uk-cancels-order-for-simple-ventilators-needs-more-complex-ones-source-idUKKCN21U0UI

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 07:22:20 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 12, 2020, 05:35:22 pmIt really depends how exceptional the circumstances are.Also, how you focus on the risks. The risk to one person or the risk to a group of people.If you go on the risks for any *individual* patient in extreme need of a ventilator.You might say"We have tested this completely non-certified ventilator and it seems to work, but the unit may kill the patient if it's defective or malfunctionsYou can also say"There is a tiny chance the patient might pull through without it".Therefore we should not use it as it might cause harm that would otherwise not have occurred.If you go on the risks of a group of people all in extreme need of a ventilator.You might say"We have tested this completely non-certified ventilator and it seems to work, but some units may kill patients if they're defective or malfunction"And then, given the volume of people currently dying each day through lack of any ventilators."When compared with not using them at all, this non-certified ventilator should save more lives than it ends through defects or malfunctions."Therefore we should use it since it will be better for the group overall.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 12:27:27 am
content: GM partnered with Ventec to build high end critical care ventilators. They did not use or reuse car parts, they used a current proven design. They did use the logistical supply chain available to the auto manufacturers. In a little over a month they went from the idea to partner with Ventec to delivering the first units to a Chicago hospital the other day with 30K units to be delivered by August, I think. This was the combined effort of thousands of people and hundreds of suppliers that's not getting the air play they deserve. Over a thousand employees volunteered to be trained to assemble them in Kokomo.I heard an interview with one small supplier, a die cast manufacturer who had been in business for around 100 years. In just over a week from the first phone calls they had received their dies for a piston central to the ventilator and had cast the first part. In the normal course of events it usually takes 10-12 weeks to get a die made. That was just one of 700 parts that had to be sourced.The old line automakers do understand scale, it's really impressive when it works.I hope somebody's taking notes, this will be a great story after the dust settles down.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2020, 01:36:32 pm
content: Quote from: PaulAm on April 20, 2020, 12:27:27 amI hope you remember to include the fact that they're not building the originally intended multi-function VOCSN model, apparently due to being unable to agree on a palatable pricetag. The deal that GM ended up making with the government is for a much simpler, cut-down "V+Pro" ventilator-only model with less than 400 parts.It seems that GM's is set to receive $490,000,000 for its' part of the contract for the 30,000 ventilators, or $16,333 per ventilator for GM's part. I know they are pricey machines at the best of times, but you need to remember that GM isn't exactly doing this out of altruistic concern for the citizenry (who also happen to be their potential customers.)Between the cash and the positive marketing spin they're expecting to generate, it's pure gold.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2020, 01:54:51 am
content: GM is also converting a wharehouse, I think in Reno, to an assembly facility in conjunction with Hamilton AG Medical to double their production capacity in another month or so. Not sure what model that one will be, but it's another supply chain to build.If you look for the stories you can find them, but Ford is the one pushing the PR blitz on how responsive they've been. Ford is working with GE Healthcare but it's not clear when their first units will come off the line.It's hard to find data, but it appears the list on the V+pro is around $18,000, so GM is not really making a ton of money on these, if any (profit margin on a $70K pickup is around 40% as a comparison). Apparently the admin balked at the higher cost for the high end system so they settled on the simpler model. Still had 400 parts in it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 06:52:33 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 06, 2020, 03:57:53 pmIt seems it is over now, as the ventilators, didn't quite succeed and/or were not needed (I've only rapidly glimpsed through the article).It sort of shows, how difficult a challenge it really is, to suddenly start producing ventilators.At least they tried, which is good.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52409359Quote