Safety Hazards - Have you ever intervened first and THEN explained? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:07:20 pm
content: A few years ago, I dropped in at a local garage sale (yard sale) and pottered around for a minute to see if there were any little treasures, when I happened upon a double adapter which caught my attention. Without hesitation, I handed over the cash (just $2) and then placed it on the concrete driveway and stomped on it with my steel cap boot, smashing it into oblivion. The startled householder asked me why I did that and when I explained, he offered me my money back - but I said it was worth the $2 just to know it was never going to be used ever again. (And, yes, I did pick up all the pieces.)For those of you that might be wondering, it was the same style as the one at the left of this photo, but without the tape.... and what these three double adapters have in common is that they all reverse the Live and Neutral pins on one side.Simplicity of construction lead to this - and here is an interior shot of the middle one, so you can see how it came to be.But all it took for the same construction technique to provide correct pin orientation was a simple layout change...

author: plazma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:25:43 pm
content: Does it matter? European sockets are symmetrical so it does not matter which is live or neutral.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:43:13 pm
content: I get that there is a small risk involved in reversing phase and neutral wires, mainly if you want to do some electrical work and you don't notice that they are reversed but it really isn't that bad.In your everyday use nobody woll notice and it really isn't important if they are reversed or not.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: plazma on March 11, 2016, 01:25:43 pmHe's in Australia, not AustriaIf the local standard defines fixed positions for L and N then it's that way. And those wrong wirings can make a lot of fun. Recently I had a 3-phase machine with a motor running in the wrong direction caused by L1 and L3 swapped in the CEE wall socket. BTW, how much one-phase stuff is designed for fixed N and L wiring?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:50:02 pm
content: If you have an incorrectly wired extension lead where the Neutral and Earth have been transposed, then it will function normally and (relatively) safely ... unless you have an RCD breaker in circuit.Plug this extension lead with the double adapter and your appliance now has Live on the chassis.As unlikely as this situation may appear, by maintaining correct L & N orientation, the risk to personal safety is reduced.The other thing is, if you have a device that switches the 'Live' conductor, through this double adapter it will be switching the Neutral. No power will flow, but the active potential will reside on every other part of the mains circuitry within the device. Be careful with the case open and power applied....Besides, it's just as easy to get it right as it is to get it wrong.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:51:34 pm
content: No. I dont think it is not safe. Schucko is reversible. Italian is reversible. The American is dangerous and reversible. Sometimes it is not even guaranteed that you have neutral in your socket. I think you destroyed something perfectly working.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 11, 2016, 01:50:02 pmIt is not like you should open something which is pluged into the mains anyway.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:55:13 pm
content: It can matter. The switch in an appliance is supposed to be in the Active side, so when it's off there is no power anywhere in the appliance.Now consider an appliance which has light sockets. With A & N swapped, even when the switch is off, a contact in the socket is live. Changing bulbs, or if there is no bulb, that can be lethal.Btw, for American readers the N line in the Australian system is at gound potential, while Active is full 240 VAC.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:56:29 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 11, 2016, 01:51:34 pmMy $2, my choice ... my peace of mind.Considering the 'intensity' of EU standards, it seems curious they haven't clamped down on such whimsy.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 01:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: Philfreeze on March 11, 2016, 01:54:36 pmFault finding in an unpowered device is not a skill I've perfected.While I concede that anybody poking around inside live equipment is likely to have the good sense to pay appropriate respect to the mains, there is always the danger of 'assumption' or lapses in concentration.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 02:01:09 pm
content: ... and then there are those who should never open anything that is powered by anything bigger than a 'AA'.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 02:03:06 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 11, 2016, 02:01:09 pmwell said.I just want to clarify. I don't think this is a good idea. We have standards for a reason but I also don't think it is extremly dangerous but again, maybe I just don't think hard enough.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 02:09:21 pm
content: While the likelihood of a dangerous situation may not be great, theriskis reduced.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 02:25:50 pm
content: My favourite dangerous adapter is this deathtrap:It has handy green switches at each end which pop out prongs for various countries.The best bit comes if you have it plugged into an extension socket and a curious child or other electrical innocent pushes the other switch - live spikes instantly pop out of the back.There are various critiques on YouTube, of which the most entertaining is probably by BigClive (search for "electrocute-o-daptor").

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 04:01:07 pm
content: Brumby, you really shouldn't ever visit continental Europe ;-) I have pictured you wielding a hammer, smashing each and every wall socket you come across with fierce passion :-) And "wow, this guy really thinks safety first" isn't exactly the first thought this imagined scene brought in my mind. Sorry!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 04:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 11, 2016, 01:55:13 pmThat is the worst assumption ever! Wiring can be swapped or you can have a 2 phase supply where each wire is live. Therefore a principal power switch must always have enough poles for all the mains wires (phases + neutral).

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 04:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 11, 2016, 01:56:29 pmJust about every portable appliance now is double insulated so polarity should not matter. Beats me why the cables are still colour coded on 2 wire stuff though.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 05:23:35 pm
content: I wonder what would you do if you encountered this beauty.But seriously, from my european perspective it's just weird to hear about polarity of the mains.The only time i needed it is when i tried to connect a lightbulb between a nail stuck into the ground and the "live" pin of the socket...Yeah, i wonder how i survived childhood sometimes.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 05:44:18 pm
content: Last unsafe power double adapter I smashed was the flat variety that only have a single screw between the two outlets. The plastic wasn't strong enough to keep the seam between the two halves from flexing open. Some of these actually got recalled, but they were all dangerous.For those unaware, in Australia the 240V sockets usually derive power from 3 phase wye. So they neutral comes from that, and is also tied in multiple places to earth.Hence there is a difference between Neutral and Active. I've seen some circuits powered directly from the mains that tie neutral to the 0V side of the circuit. Imagine the issues should that get miswired power input.

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 07:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on March 11, 2016, 02:25:50 pm+1 this is ridiculous

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 11:42:16 pm
content: Quote from: Zbig on March 11, 2016, 04:01:07 pmLOL!No, I wouldn't be quite so passionate - but I would be aware. (But the image I had of myself doing such a thing was priceless.)The fact remains, though, that there IS a difference between the Active and Neutral, especially when safety is being considered. Keeping themconsistentlyon the same pin of any mains outlet hasNOdownside, whereas allowing them to swap indiscriminately does (however large or small you feel that may be).The stuff of nightmares:Correction -thatwas the stuff of a bad dream ...THISis the stuff of nightmares:

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2016, 11:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 11, 2016, 04:56:45 pmMaybe we in Australia have benefited from lessons learned from the rest of the world, but our domestic supply consists of three 230v phases and a neutral. Each residence will have 2, 3 or 4 wires coming in from the street - being a neutral and either 1, 2 or 3 phases. In the earlier days, each property was presented with 3 phase, where circuits around the house were spread across the 3 phases to help balance the phase currents - but these days, the power demands can frequently be satisfied by a single phase to each house and phase current balancing is performed by spreading houses across the phases.Two wire (excluding earth) devices in Australia are supplied by one active phase and a neutral (which is tied to ground somewhere along the way). The idea of a 2 phase supply in Australia is totally alien. I know it appears in the USA where there is a split supply to generate 2 x 115v and 230v across the actives - but not here.QuoteWhile I completely agree with the reasoning behind this, the fact remains that manufacturers are going to get away with whatever they can.

author: firehopper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 01:42:58 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 11, 2016, 11:58:52 pmThis is my house, I live in the usa and I have 2 110 volt lines, and a few items that run off the 220 ( water pump and clothes dryer, the water heater used to, but ended up with a 110 water heater so had to rewire that)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 09:45:36 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 11, 2016, 11:42:16 pmThe problem is in the wordconsistently. If you are concerned with your safety you don't want to put your life in the hands of the people connecting the wires. Also in a fault condition the neutral wire may become live. So either way the only real safe way to disconnect/switch off mains is to interrupt all phases and neutral.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 10:17:39 am
content: Sure it was not compliant but hardly what I would consider a serious safety issue in the real world.I would not have bothered destroying it, but you paid for it so you can do what feels right of course.

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 10:46:47 am
content: If its not to standard it shouldn't be made. Destroy it if you want.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 11:00:20 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 12, 2016, 09:45:36 amYou can't assume that the sparky wired the sockets correctly. Only after verifying that, you know if L and N are where they belong to. The fixed L and N positions could give you a false impression of safety. The red wire is mostly Vcc but it could be anything else.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 12:19:15 pm
content: "Live" and "neutral" are only formal/legislative definitions - both come from the same transformer. The only difference is where you declare to connect "ground/earth" and where you are with respect to the "ground/earth".In real life, both "live" and "neutral" are in fact live/hot/dangerous and should be considered as such. "Neutral" has nothing to do with safety or being safe to touch - laymen and even electrician often get confused with this concept.Consider the amount of connections in the house and infrastructure that should keep polarity the same for the whole concept of strict live/neutral separation to hold. I simply cannot put my my trust that "neutral" is "neutral", it is too dangerous to do so. Sockects can be miswired. Each socket has 3 wires to be connected to 3 connections - considered amount of possible permutations to do it while only one of them is "correct".Polarity swap should not be dangerous for a two/three wire appliance. If polarity does matter, it better have a very good reason to be such. Otherwise, device in question should be thrown out as too dangerous.In EU, houses typically have single phase or three phase power systems. Neutral/live are only separated at input panel - consumer sockets can have mixed polarity and all consumer devices can have live/neutral swapped without a serious issue. It is much more important to connect earth correctly than to deal with live/neutral swap.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 12:59:18 pm
content: I am amazed that you can never have confidence in the wiring of your mains outlets.In Australia, only licenced electricians can legally install fixed wiring - and I've yet to come across a power point that has not been wired correctly (but, mind you, I've not gone searching for incorrectly wired ones.)

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 01:57:29 pm
content: I expect a socket to be wired correctly with >90% probability. However, it still is not 100%, so I do not trust it fully - it can be a human error, device failure, etc. I do not and cannot know how it is till I check.There is a fundamental difference between how it "should be" and how it "actually is". Same goes, for example, with traffic lights - cars should stop at red light, but sometimes they do not (for whatever reason). One should at least glimpse if cars are actually stopping instead of trusting they will.Trusting blindly something on assumptions puts you in a danger - you play a negative lottery so to speak. I would rather minimise this risk as much as I can, as mains electricity is a lethal danger.In a single phase without earth or single phase with earth systems phase mixup is not a serious issue. But if one expects/assumes for L to be L and N to be N without checking, it can be disastrous.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 02:01:13 pm
content: Don't worry Brumby, some EU countries have regulations and certifications galore and any electrician who swaps L and N would been soon out of a job.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 03:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on March 12, 2016, 02:01:13 pmWith Schuko (CEE 7/3) wall sockets Mr. Sparky may swap L and N as he likes, but not in distribution panels or junction boxes. Unfortunately a certification is no guarantee for a proper wiring. I've seen some not so professional work done by German Meisters.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 09:10:30 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 12, 2016, 11:00:20 amIf you're going to say that then perhaps the earth conductor shouldn't be relied upon?If the local standard allows for reversible polarity mains sockets then fine, but if it doesn't, then anything not conforming to the standard should be corrected or destroyed.Here in the UK, each plug has a fuse on the phase conductor and the main circuit breaker is often 32A or more. Neutral must be neutral, otherwise there's an increased risk of fire, as there will be appliances with a skinny 0.5mm2connected via a 32A breaker.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 09:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 12, 2016, 11:00:20 amAbout the red wire: On some old color coding used in the NL up to 1970 the red wire is neutral and green is the live wire.Quote from: Hero999 on March 12, 2016, 09:10:30 pmNo. The current has to go through the appliance in a loop so with neutral and live reversed the current still goes through the fuse.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 09:51:43 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 12, 2016, 12:59:18 pmQuote from: Towger on March 12, 2016, 02:01:13 pmIf we were talking about the UK or maybe even Aus I would support the above two statements but the EU is a bit harder - even if the sparkies are competent.Where the "German" Schuko type F is used (most of the EU) the plug is non polarised, so if working on an appliance you do not know which connection is "live" and which is neutral.It's a bit better in France, there the plugs are polarised (except where they're not as old two pin outlets are still to be found in abundance and two pin plugs in even more abundence). If installed with the earth pin at the top live is supposed to be on the right as you look at the socket (same as UK) - Great,butit isn't actually illegal to put the earth pin at the bottom in which case the "normes" don't say which side should be liveFor more fun using a typical UK plug adapter in France reliably swaps live and neutral. In fact all the "europlug" to IEC adapters I have come across do so as well.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 10:30:49 pm
content: The US is a big place, so anything you say is likely to be true somewhere, but in my experience most places require electrical work that is done for pay be performed by trained electricians (or at least under their supervision). But there is no legal barrier to homeowner installation. In addition to the installation restriction, at the time of ownership transfer for homes an inspection is widely, but not universally, performed which verifies correct outlet polarities.In spite of these practices I would estimate that a couple percent of the outlets I have personally examined have polarity issues. Not a large problem, but not negligible. Also easily dealt with by anyone concerned with a very cheap tester which plugs into the outlet. I am sure such things are available for the various Euro and Australian configurations.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 10:49:31 pm
content: Still... how far does the 'I should not die when I touch this' attitude get you in real life? I always assume both neutral and live wires are dangerous to touch and it doesn't hurt to check the earth wire as well on an unknown installation. I have come across outlets with an unconnected earth. As usual installations should comply with wiring code etc. Then again:when should comes into play your life may fade away.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 10:50:54 pm
content: Even in aus, there are dodgy sparkies, the few i have come across where cash in hand affairs that neighbours where struck with,In my parents house the previous owners son was a first year apprentice sparky when they decided to extend the house and renovate the kitchen, so i have faced everything from ground and active reversed on 3 sockets, to bare actives, and bare wires wrapped in electrical tape, all connections twisted and taped, and screws driven into where the wires should be, then the wires wrapped around the screws,Oh and lighting wire used on the stove and oven high current circuits meaning it was half melted,Seriously, get your electrics checked out when you buy a new house

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 11:33:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 12, 2016, 09:40:30 pmNot necessarily if working on legacy houses where there is no RCD. The impedance should be low enough to blow the fuse in the plug but once that happens you rely on the impedance fault to earth to blow the circuit fuse.Grandfathered circuits should really be outlawed for this reason as you need to assume the plug is not some badly done Chinese crap where the designer made the moulding wrong.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2016, 11:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 12, 2016, 09:40:30 pmThat's not acceptable since the device would still be live.Also the fuse wouldn't provide any protection if the RCD failed.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:00:02 am
content: I recently picked up one of these power supplies and have been conducting a few tests before I gut it for the case, It basically splits the 240 volt mains input into 2 x 120 placing 120 volts on each of the normally active and neutral output sockets in relation to ground, this could be of concern for anyone working on equipment fed from these devices whereby the mains switch would normally only disconnect the active feed unless it was perhaps a double pole cutting both, the site linked below does recommend placing any safety switches on the output side of the supply but as a plug and walk away device I seriously doubt that any equipment installer would bother going to the trouble, no warning labels on the case either.Specificationshttps://www.tortech.com.au/balanced_studio_power_supply.htmlJust a ranthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-did-you-buy-today-post-your-latest-purchase!/msg892687/#msg892687

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:10:57 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on March 12, 2016, 11:49:15 pmIf the RCD fails the 32A break will trip so no problem at all assuming a fault to earth. In most cases the fault is more likely to occur in the circuit between live and neutral and which fuse blows where doesn't matter as long as the current flow is interrupted. Things get hairy if you are opening the appliance without pulling the plug first but if you are that daft you're up for a Darwin award anyway.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on March 12, 2016, 09:10:30 pmYes. The first step is to check the wiring after installation. But you should check it again from time to time. Screws can loosen. Therefore you got not just the PE but also RCDs and breakers.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 12, 2016, 09:40:30 pmLong time ago (until 1965?) red was also used in Germany. It could be PE or switched L for single phase or L2 for 3-phase.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 12:53:16 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 13, 2016, 12:00:02 amDoes that mean that the PE contacts of the output sockets are aren't connected to the mains' PE, but to the center tap of the two 120V windings?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 01:35:23 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 13, 2016, 12:53:16 pmIf the secondaries are isolated windings (not auto-transformer) then you could have both conditions: the PE contacts of the output sockets are connected to the mains PEandthe center tap of the two 120V windings. As I understand it, this will turn the output into the equivalent of a split phase supply - as you would find in the USA.

author: Chris Jones
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 01:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 12, 2016, 12:59:18 pmHa! Just because someone has an electrician licence doesn't necessarily mean they do things safely. In a few cases they instead believe it means they no longerneedto do things safely - they have a piece of paper that says it's safe. The situation also means that unlike the UK, a knowledgeable homeowner isn't permitted to take the socket off the wall to check the standard of the work.The neutral connection to several sockets in my house failed, so that if any appliance was plugged in, all of the neutral pins were at 240V with respect to earth.(As a side note: I arranged for the landlord to send an electrician and got him to replace some arcing light switches at the same time as fixing the broken neutral. He didn't want to turn off the power whilst he did this work even though I offered to go on the long walk to the switchboard and pull out the rewireable ceramic fuses for him - I figured I'd rather do it before than after he had an accident as I might feel compelled to exert myself in the latter case. (None of these new-fangled RCDs or ELCBs in this house!). So he was twisting the wires whilst the lights were flickering on and off as the wires sparked in his pliers. Still what would I know, I'm a mere engineer!)

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 01:55:50 pm
content: Quote from: MrSlack on March 13, 2016, 01:46:04 pmAs unlikely as it is, if you ever have someone drop in to do a spot check of your house wiring - you're going to get 'done'. I spoke to a building inspector once and he told me it was usually pretty easy to see when the householder had done some work instead of a tradesperson .... the work was too good.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 02:01:18 pm
content: I'll just blame the good work on the last guy

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 02:19:22 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 13, 2016, 01:35:23 pmOf course. It's the "Eliminates Ground Loops in House Wiring" which bothers me. In that case the PE contacts of the output sockets have to float too to prevent a ground loop. The metal chassis of audio equipment is usually conected to PE and circuit ground.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 02:49:04 pm
content: Brumby explained the configuration of this particular power supply to a tee, I did notice in a picture of their later model a sticker above the output sockets indicating no earth connection or similar, anyway all five of the following are terminated together in a single connection on this supply.1. Mains Protective Earth Input2. Mains Protective Earth Output3. Cabinet Metal Chassis Earth4. Toroidal Transformer Earth5. Toroidal Centre Tap

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 05:05:21 pm
content: From my experience if device is constructed correctly N/L swapping does nothing, but if device is crooked bad things might happend, my oven was tripping breaker (dunno how you call it but its the one which measures leakage current) every time I rurned on the oven so it means that electrolux POS case was live (100% polished steel)Also all cheap socket extenders have switch only on one side, so if L/N is swapped it does not matter if extender is on or off it's always live....

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2016, 12:11:33 am
content: Quote from: Iwanushka on March 13, 2016, 05:05:21 pmYour thinking of an RCD. How did you discover that the case was live?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2016, 01:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: Iwanushka on March 13, 2016, 05:05:21 pmI think you mean a RCD. Ovens in Europe usually are designed to run with 3-phase mains (star/Y) and allow different setups, i.e. true 3-phase, 2 phases with one feeding two inputs or 1 phase feeding all 3 inputs. Therefore the oven comes with one or two u-shaped metal strips for paralleling inputs. And all got a PE terminal. If someone bridges that with N (lack of PE in the mains wiring) and swaps L and N, that deserves the Darwin award.When the wiring is correct a broken heating element is a common cause for tripping the RCD. Another interesting cause is when the oven wasn't used for quite a while. When not used the isolation inside the heating element can worsen to a point at which enough current can flow to PE to trigger the RCD. In that case the element can be fixed by baking it for half an hour at about 200° Celsius. No joke!QuoteHaven't seen any SPST switches in power strips for quite a while

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2016, 02:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 14, 2016, 01:20:55 pmThey are ubiquitous in switched UK power strips, since live and neutral are always defined in power circuits.An example:with internals exposed for your viewing pleasure:Neutral is definitely not switched. And if anyone wonders, the strip was purchased from Farnell, not eBay.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2016, 07:52:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 13, 2016, 12:10:57 amNo, earth to phase fault is much more common than a phase to neutral fault.If there's a problem with the RCD, 0.5mm2cable (quite common in appliances fitted with a 3A fuse) may not allow sufficient fault current to trip a 32A breaker (depending on the type used) before melting and/or giving someone a shock due to the appliance's case rising to well above 50VAC.

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2016, 05:18:08 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on March 14, 2016, 02:41:51 pmFor euro plugs its different, and most so called electicians wire sockets randomly...Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2016, 05:22:11 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 14, 2016, 01:20:55 pmMy oven is single phase, and it was "live" around 20v on case until I swapped N/L the way it suppose to be, never had a chance to open it up and see wtf was wrong.Also +1 about baking/burning in heating element if it's not used for half a year helpsSent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2016, 05:25:13 pm
content: Also at least in my country 99,99% apartment buildings are single phase, only houses have 3 phase, go figure exUSSR...Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk