Bought This Used Ebike Kit For $100 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 05:13:39 am
content: Don't know much about ebike kits in general, I'm planning to use it for an upcoming project. What you guys think?It uses 3 of these Powersonic PS-12120F2https://www.amazon.com/Powersonic-PS-12120F2-12-Sealed-Battery-Terminals/dp/B005S4LR6OEverything apparently works. Wasn't able to test it because the batteries aren't charged and it didn't come with a charger (apparently it was run over by a neighbors car). I got it in a sketchy area, but the guy was nice, so who knows lol.What kind of charger do I need? also what u guys think of that damage around the hub?See attached image:

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 04:35:10 pm
content: Sorry, it looks old and crappy.You probably need new batteries.Search for 12V lead acid battery charger. It's better to charge the batteries individually, but you could connect them all in parallel and charge them simultaniously.Bear in mind that most modern ebikes use lithium ion batteries, which need a different type of charger.

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 11:14:21 pm
content: No worries, I appreciate the real talk. Also I kind of expected parts to be beat up or broken for that price.Is there any way I can check the batteries with a multimeter to see if they're dead before buying a charger?Is it worth "refurbishing" or "rebuilding" those batteries if they're dead?

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 11:24:15 pm
content: I have this battery booster / power pack in my garage.. can I use it to charge those batteries?

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 11:39:32 pm
content: It looks like your basic $100 rabbit hole full of pitfalls….The batteries are just 12V sealed lead acid possibly glass matt. Any small 12V automotive battery charger will work to keep them charged one at a time, but some of the small automatic and so called ‘smart’ chargers won’t start charging a totally dead battery. You may have to use a non-automatic charger or even a bench power supply to see if they are any good. The battery booster probably isn’t going to be the right device to charge the batteries unless it uses lead acid batteries and you bodge-wire the cycle batteries in place of the booster’s internal batteryIf you have a multi-meter see what voltage each 12V unit reads and post the results. They are not worth rebuilding. If you can get them to hold any charge, they may be OK for testing the rest of the components to see if it is worth throwing more money down the rabbit hole.Check the wiring where it goes into the axle; it looks twisted and could be shorted.

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 02:43:02 am
content: These kinds of pitfalls I'm not stressed about. I just see it as fun lol.I'll get back to you with the battery results tomorrow! Probably 0v across the board I'd imagine.

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 03:39:19 am
content: Sorry for the terrible video, it was really hard to film and use the multimeter at the same time..I used an analog meter to gather some readings:Btw is this digital multimeter fried?Under dc volt setting it never settles on a result, then jumps around all over the place and flashes "OL". When I switch it to read amps it does the same. Maybe a fuse is blown?

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 06:57:54 am
content: used brushed motor?brushed motor controller is just NE555 PWM circuit and some power MOSFETlead acid battery directly in trash (they will charge in minute therefore no resource left)usually last for 200 charge cycleshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_acid_batteryvshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 02:10:15 pm
content: Quote from: strawberry on July 10, 2021, 06:57:54 amWell hopefully not.Actual brushed motor controller has current sensing and control.And yes, I have built a brushed motor controller out of a 555 and power MOSFET. Surprisingly, it lasted for half an hour.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 05:56:36 pm
content: In cheap welding inverters MIG/MAG in feed motor circuit they use some CMOS logic gates to generate PWM and over current protection but still MOSFET failhere is my old designInfineon IRF3205S at 10A rating gets slightly warm(I think due to switching loss at 1kHz)

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 06:32:35 am
content: Quote from: strawberry on July 10, 2021, 06:57:54 amYou sure those batteries can't be refurbished or rebuilt? I see lots of videos claiming it can be done with epsom salt or by adding new battery acid + distilled water and special charging techniqueHere's some examples:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNUMDdecJ9OStz-3YoD0Y6di5dhry_m5lI have loads of copper, brass, aluminum and steel (some stainless too). I can't use any of those materials to make decent batteries? I'd rather put some money into them instead of dump em tbh.

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 06:38:28 am
content: Forgot to ask; what's the minimum voltage required to see if the motor works? Will it not move at all unless it gets close to 36v?For example I have a couple of 12v deep cycle marine batteries should I see how it reacts to 24v?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 11:33:45 am
content: Motor will turn with anything over 6V applied, so just use 12V, and it will run at some low speed. Those 3 SLA batteries are very dead, time to put them in the scrap metal pile for recycling, you will get $1 back each for the 3 roughly.Use the $3 and get a new cheap multimeter from Canadian Tyre, those, while not the best, are at least reasonably good for low voltage use.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 01:03:06 pm
content: Quote from: electromateria on July 11, 2021, 06:32:35 amDo a forum search for 'Lead acid battery', 'SLA', 'Epsom Salts' etc. There are plenty of threads.The short summary is 'not to any useful capacity'.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 01:06:07 pm
content: Don't waste time trying to revive dead lead acid batteries, this includes epsom salts, special charger circuits etc. Colossal waste of time and money. Works for emergency cases when you absolutelyneedsome thing to run temporarily until you can get the new battery. Makes for youtube videos because it seemingly "works". But the revived battery loses most of the capacity and dies again soon.

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 01:48:48 pm
content: Why specifically can't lead acid batteries be restored to good working order? I need a basic idea of the science / chemical impasse.I heard something about after many charge and discharge cycles that the lead plates can get "sulphinated"? The sulphur in the acid starts building crystals on the exterior of the lead plate stopping it from working anymore. Is that the issue?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 03:15:50 pm
content: I had a very similar situation. Two lead-acid batteries same size as yours (I call it 'Alarm System's size, informally). Offered $ 20, out of friend's junk pile, and it pulled about 4 amps thru the scooter motor.So that was a 100 watt stand up scooter, a bit underpowered.But then I let it sit, couple years: ruined both batteries. Radio Shack store had two replacements, and again, I let em sit a year, in a discharged state: That's what ruins them, via a chemical degradation of the plates. You haven't mentioned the idea that you would need to BREACH the battery housing, for the Epsom salts rescue (attempts).One of the two newer batteries was usable, after long neglect, being at about 3 V when I put it on a little solar trickle charge. The second battery was staying at 0.00 V even though on trickle a couple days.If nothing else, once you do get one 12 V batt, whether through purchase another one, you could buy an automotive store 'aux. outlet': The outlet features a USB port, for charging phone in a disaster, (typhoon, etc). Plus there is a cigarette lighter type receptacle.While you are (in Auto store) check out any cheap voltmeters, although better one is sold by eeVblog.Your scooter would probably be, like, 36 Volts at 5 amps, something around that. So that's 180 watts, a decent power, for a 200 pound adult, plus HELMET.Some country homestead'ers would take your stuff, and make a WASHING MACHINE if they have a skilled mechanical disposition, that's due to the awesome torque that DC motor likely has!- Rick B.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 04:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: electromateria on July 11, 2021, 01:48:48 pmAt least the thick layer of sulphation that can't be simply removed, I don't know, probably other effects as well, but you don't need to be a lead acid battery chemistry expert to have collected thepracticalinformation that almost everybody who tried different revival methods were initially happy to see some improvement but then came back dissatisfied, having to buy a new battery anyway.If the batteries could be revived, that would be normally done as a maintenance operation, all chargers would be those special chargers, and adding epsom salt would be a normal operation after X years. Instead, batteries are recycled for lead which is used to make new batteries.

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 07:15:53 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 11, 2021, 04:18:36 pmThanks, was curious about the problem. I wonder about something like this:https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/getting-rid-last-bits-sulfur-fuel-54225"The new method uses a potassium salt to induce the chemical reactions required to remove sulfur from fuel."So basically you'd drain the battery acid, mix potassium chloride with water, put it in the cells, wait (?), pour it out, rinse, put acid back in.I guess it would be important to find out how that would react with the lead on a chemical level, but maybe it could work to de-sulphante

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 07:21:14 pm
content: Quote from: RJHayward on July 11, 2021, 03:15:50 pmI think for the batteries I have you just pop the top cover off then you get access to the caps, so you can funnel electrolyte in there without damaging anything. If you want access to the lead plates you need to chop the top off damaging the casing.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 08:37:38 pm
content: Those small lead acid batteries are not supposed to be refillable/serviceable. The electrolyte is normally either soaked up in a fibreglass mat, or in gel form, so it's not easy to drain and refill. Buy new batteries and keep them regularly topped up, so they don't sulphate.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2021, 11:45:37 pm
content: Might be time, to take the advice from Siwastaja:The re-furbish road doesn't seem to take you anywhere. Are you thinking in terms of 'clean environment / lead clean-up', then that's some possible ideas, but again the experienced motor folks aren't seeing it as a practical route.What lead contamination procedures do you follow ?Oops, I meant contamination avoidance. There are explicit industrial (hygiene) written, explicit procedures in place, in many countries...Breathing fumes, as you 'tear down' each BATT ?I don't see a cap in your battery pictures, just a full top (and with terminals) for to, what: PRY with a screwdriver ? Are there really cell caps under there, as seen in the big auto batteries, for servicing w water refilling ?Better to focus elsewhere, give up on that one.But, curious what is that other shiney cylinder in pictures ? And, of course, that axle wire is strange: seems like that could side swipe impact on anything as you ride close to any brush etc. (?).

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 01:16:38 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 11, 2021, 08:37:38 pmI think worst case scenario if they can't be repaired I'll take out the battery acid and lead plates so I can use them for other projects.Quote from: RJHayward on July 11, 2021, 11:45:37 pmYea it's partly environmental, but also I don't like to discard potentially useful things that can be repaired or used for other projects. Also it's fun to tinker around and try to repair things vs just buying something new, even if it sometimes ends in failure.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 07:22:17 pm
content: Keep up the good work !Please see in your photos, I'm also wondering what is that shiny silver cylinder, looks a bit like a generator that runs by way of the wheel's moving tire edge (?).Plus, by the way, wanted to add that, in my 2005 vintage scooter, it had a simple relay, the GO switch went to a transistor (2N222 or similar), with the transistor collector to pull down the relay coil, for contacts closing. Now, that simple (handlebar mounted) GO switch was in series with another switch, a N.C. switch that would make sure the scooter would be de-activated upon pulling on BRAKE lever.That way if driver 'tenses up' and pulls BOTH controls the scooter motor will stop, if sudden stop is needed.? What metals do you stock: I know a couple artist types (beadwork and precious stones) that might be interested, in fine wire mainly...

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 08:34:06 pm
content: Thanks manthat chrome cylinder is some kind of voltage reader (?) not sure, but it shows how much life is left in the battery.Most of what I've been collecting is steel, I have lots of sheet, rods, rebar, plate, c-channel, I wanted to buy a huge 400lbs Ibeam but probably would have destroyed my car in the process of moving itI took apart 2 treadmills so I got some nice pieces of steel from that too. I have an amazing salvage yard about 40 mins away where I can walk around and pick out cool pieces that maybe useful. On one side it's all auto parts (can get nice gears from differentials / transmissions) and on the other side is miles of industrial equipment, thick steel plate to heavy to even lift, air and gas tanks, old tools, old motors, etc. There's a motor covered in rust that's around the size of my shed LOL.Basically I'm trying to slowly build out a really nice custom fabrication shop. Here's some images, there's a lot more steel tubing than you can see in the pics.Here's the state of one of the treadmill motors I took apart, it looked brand new from the outside, but had an exploded bearing lol:

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 11:08:17 pm
content: Best guess, is that silver colored cylinder might be a contact wheel speed sensing generator, as main lable specifies that voltage range of 1 to 4 volts. In that case you have a generator, where you would see a shaft coming out and with a little round rubber end, to be spring loaded against your bike. That way of controlling the speed, by way of a tachometer sensing circuit. I bet the inside of that heat sink has the controller.Did you get the bike frame, etc. ?I pity you; if you ever need to reverse engineer a little computer in there. Good experience, but brings up more questions, regarding brakes and accelerator levers, plus any 'display' or LEDs.Perhaps, if that CYL is a tachometer, the designer needed a super-robust tolerance, of rain etc.(A tachometer would go into an A to D converter, inside the controller housing.)- Rick B.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 11:27:02 pm
content: For the person looking for a way to revive dead batteries it is best to put that out of your mind unless you have an advance degree in chemistry. All the simple solutions have been exhausted. Further they have been all been proven to have short term effectiveness.The nice thing about lead acid batteries is that recycling is highly effective. Compare this to the nonsense around glass bottles/ware where the economics really done work in favor of recycling.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 02:42:45 am
content: how to restore lead acid battery

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 09:37:54 am
content: Oh my GAAAAWD !NOW, I realize this LEAD encrusted 'automotive technician' could be stuck, having to feed his family, etc. We have all been there...But my God, does he take that LEAD dust home, tracking on shoes, in lungs, fingers. I would welcome any tale (he) has to tell about job hardships there. Really.BUT HE HAS GOT TO BE POISONING HIS FAMILY MEMBERS !!!Using the same filthy lawn chair I use...I'm no saint: Somebody tell me where I'm wrong here.Lead is a heavy metal POISON.Just saying.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 01:05:44 pm
content: Yeah, shocking isn't it.I think a lot of people still think that the plates LA in batteries are solid lead. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are, probably corroded, Lead grids filled with 'pastes' of nasty Lead compounds to get sufficient surface area. They are filthy, even (heavens forbid) you try to brush them or squirt them clean with a hose! I can't think of any more efficient way of getting Lead poisoning and spreading it around.The ONLY option is a proper commercial battery recycling facility, where they reuse and properly recycling of the reagents and solvent and produce nice shiny Lead ingots and recycled plastic as an end product!

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 03:48:21 pm
content: I took a minute, to copy you a schematic of the simple motor control for ON -OFF switching relay. The two hand switches are for low power on-off to the transistor base, that is for relay coil, around 500 mA (that's half-amp, approx. coil holding current.)The 2N2222 is just one example of NPN. What I meant is the Base current is feeble, and will cause the transistor to allow the half-amp of the coil to flow down into the collector terminal.That's a first stage, of 'amplifying' the switch signal.Transistors are analyzed by way of current... FYI, a reaction in the transistor will let you see a result BASE voltage, usually approx 0.7 volts, but most designers use current when designing (as most varied situations are going to show that 0.7, or 0.65 volts etc.)For the motor, the relay contacts will handle the power delivery current, lable implies about 7 amps.(At that higher current the relay contacts themselves might drop some small voltage, you can ignore).This sort of motor control can give you enough challenge, if you are just learning.I liked the Forrest Mimms books for starting out in electronics.Rick

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 03:50:18 pm
content: Here is the simple ON-OFF relay circuit.

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 04:26:42 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on July 12, 2021, 11:08:17 pmI'll get some better pictures tomorrow and post themQuote from: wizard69 on July 12, 2021, 11:27:02 pmYou will never stop me from acquiring all that tasty, tasty lead.Quote from: Gyro on July 13, 2021, 01:05:44 pm^ Randy (wizard69) and Dave (Gyro) from the recycling facilities trying to keep me from my god given lead and battery acid. You'll never have it!!

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 12:19:20 pm
content: Recycling is not as nice as it is told. What is recyclable in Iphone, sheet of aluminium and lithium, 80% is burned in thermoelectric stations, at the and what is left is sent to landfill.As China shut down waste imports. Now it all go to africagoogle: radioactive waste atlantic ocean

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 06:09:32 pm
content: I agree, many (most) products aren't designed for simple or efficient recycling. I suspect that very few Lithium cells are recycled at all at the moment, [Edit: just dig up some more until it gets too scarce]Lead Acid batteries are one of those rare commodities that are relatively simple and profitable to recycle in properly designed industrial facilities - as close to the manufacturing plants as possible. The Lead gets efficiently recycled and so does the plastic, for new containers. Of course that does nothing to prevent, or excuse, the sort of 'street vendor' practice shown in your video link.Sadly the usefulness and value of Lead is dropping as we go lead-free in electronics and move to EVs which will ultimately make it unprofitable. In that respect it's a bit of a shame as LA recycling technology a tried and tested, efficient, process, whereas we're really only just getting started with the problem of Lithium batteries (and I can't see it ever being as simple to do).

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 12:29:58 am
content: street shop is not a problem but poisoning with fumes islead fumes form above 500deghttps://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Chemical_and_Hazardous_Substances/Safety_with_Lead_at_Work.pdf

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 12:42:56 am
content: Quote from: electromateria on July 12, 2021, 08:34:06 pmI am here only for your July 2021 calendar.