Buying Keysight Used: my MSOX3104T fully loaded experiences - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 07:48:45 am
content: As many are no doubt aware from the banner ad running this month on eevblog Keysight Used have a deal on the MSOX3104T.Mine arrive a couple of days ago, here are my experiences. Some might want to watch at 1.5x speed, I know I’m a slow talker!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 08:01:16 am
content: Nice !A few years ago, I bought my MSOX3104A through the same Keysight channel.What a great deal.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 08:27:34 am
content: Thanks for sharing your experience. Obviously the cat had to present itself not too subtly. As a tip I'd say you want to mind the occasional lip smacking during filming but otherwise the presentation was pretty good.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 08:30:26 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 14, 2019, 08:27:34 amI’ll add that to my already long list of complaints and disclaimers! ;-)

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 08:37:03 am
content: I will watch this when I have the time, containing my soul in patience while waiting for mine to arrive...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 08:38:16 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 14, 2019, 08:30:26 amLoved the disclaimer for using paper instead of text overlay.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 12:37:03 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 14, 2019, 08:37:03 amFWIW mine took eleven days elapsed, I ordered on 1 August and it was delivered on 12 August. I received a message a couple of working days before it arrived saying it'd been dispatched, but no tracking number that I found. They used DHL to the UK.In the end, I found one very minor cosmetic blemish, the probe compensation ground lug seems to have been used with some industrial strength croc/alligator clips: it's a bit rough to the touch as if someone's dog has been chewing it!

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 05:26:06 pm
content: Going by your experiences, hopefully mine will be arriving in time for the bank holiday weekend!A quick question - were the software licenses in the supplied bundle 'old style' or 'new style'? It seems that the new style licenses attract an annual maintenance fee: it isn't clear if keeping 'old style' licenses mean you don't/can't upgrade the instrument firmware, or if paying the fee guarantees regular updates, or how much the fees are going to be.(Apparently these license changes came in in June)

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 05:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 14, 2019, 05:26:06 pmI don’t know how I’d check that. All of the options were pre-installed.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 07:27:33 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 14, 2019, 05:26:06 pmIt is easy to check. Newly added licenses have different code.Connect to the scope with web browser. On instrument utilities pages you will have listed options.New format is D3000AUTA, old one was AUTO, etc. Old one didn't have code for bundle. You would simply have all options enabled individually. If you have new bundle you will have D3000BDLA installed.There is a configurator document that explains new licensing. Basically, new way is that you don't just buy options.You choose which option (individual or bundle), then you chose if it is going to be permanent, or time limited. Then you chose if it is going to be floating license, or fixed to single instrument. Time limited licenses get all the updates during its lifetime. If you choose permanent, you get 12 months of upgrades, or you can buy longer period, or extend maintenance later.What is not clear, is how is this going to work.At this time, I have "old type" bundle with all individual option enabled. When they extended CAN FD i got all the upgrades automatically with firmware updates. If they added new option (like new protocol) despite that I bought the bundle, I wouldn't get that. I owned only option codes that existed at the time I bought bundle. But I got unlimited upgrades, fixes and extensions for the options I did own.I'm not sure if that will stay the same for me.Also I don't know if this means that if I buy D3000AUTA option now, and after 12 months, I will not get upgrades and bug fixes if I don't pay maintenance extension?If that is so, will that going to apply to old AUTO license too?If that is so, that means that officially company with best support in the world stopped giving support for their products.Whole idea why it made sense to pay more for Keysight scope was that they kept adding features and debugging for years after purchase.And when you spoke to them they would tell you that they know their equipment is more expensive to purchase, but they had to calculate in cost of support.If you will have to pay for basic support, then they have to drop initial purchase price of instruments.I don't want to pay for support twice.It either has to be at the time of instrument purchase and free later, or cheaper instrument and then you pay support in extent you need it..I would really like if Daniel could chime in and explain it to us...Regards,

author: jmsc_02
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 07:59:00 pm
content: Quick quedtion: did you need to pay customs/vat/taxes?I have the money but also i want to keep my wife...

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 08:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: jmsc_02 on August 14, 2019, 07:59:00 pmThe only additional charge above the sticker price was UK VAT @ 20%. This was added by way of an eBay 'customer invoice', on which it appears as a shipping charge. There was no actual charge for shipping, and (supposedly) all import duties are paid by Keysight, not the purchaser. This is how it worked the last time I bought something from the Keysighy eBay store.I'm in the UK - it may be different elsewhere in the EU.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 08:57:12 pm
content: I don't mind paying a maintenace charge, as long as it isn't too much, regular updates are guaranteed to appear during the maintenance period, and it doesn't just stop working if I stop paying maintenance (for the perpetual license, naturally, not the time-limited option). I would expect a formal troiuble-ticket support system to be in place, including feature requests. For example, I would like a group delay plot to be available on the FRA in addition to the Bode plot.But I agree there needs to be clarification about the status with instrument firmware updates - I don't want to find my old-style options disappearing if I upgrade the firmware!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 09:11:51 pm
content: Everybody wants us to subscribe to their products, rather than buy them. Heading for the ultimate capitalist system, where there are only two types of people: those that collect subscriptions, and those who pay them!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 09:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 14, 2019, 08:57:12 pmMaking your electronics lab dependent on some external party is completely unacceptable from a business perspective. Who wants to give someone the power to eliminate your company's abilities to further build, test, repair, develop your products or use your expensive equipment? It's a huge liability added to an already uncertain market. Keysight hasn't exactly been the most stable company with all the spin-offs and name changes either.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 09:34:03 pm
content: The way to make it work from a customer’s long-term maintenance perspective, and make it pay for the vendor, is to offer updates with new functionality, but not cripple older versions.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 09:45:56 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 14, 2019, 09:34:03 pmThe bottom line is that it's going to be more costly to operate equipment. Otherwise companies wouldn't be interested in doing it. Look at Microsoft with Office 365. You now need a 100 euro subscription a year for what once was a one time purchase with a decade's worth of updates included. Those aren't even products which can be developed further as they've had all the requisite features for a while now.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 09:51:32 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 14, 2019, 08:57:12 pmFirst, i don't want anything to change for me with existing scope and options. I paid a lot of money because of level of service that was in place when I made a decision. I already paid for lifetime support by paying premium prices for premium product with premium support. That was the deal when I bought it and the reason why I decided it was worth the money. The level of service was, that any option that I bought, would be maintained and even enhanced, during lifetime of product.It was the gift that kept on giving. That is what made it a good value. If they stop doing that, they are just the same as others, and they will not command premium purchase price. If they change that I would feel cheated.I don't mind paying for support, I already did. Upfront.If they want to start charging for ongoing support and access to updates and firmware and such, that is fine with me.Except, then DSO-X3014T should be sold for 2000 €, not 3750€. That is what I'm saying.Whenever I spoke with them, they always spoke about how they know they cost more, but they have to charge cost of the support in the price of instrument.If they keep high product prices and charge for support they will in my mind charge for support twice: first trough the price of product and then again by selling support access.To be clear, I'm concerned with regular updates, bug fixes, security fixes, updates on protocols (bugs and protocol standard changes and such).I don't expect feature requests and new options for free. If I want that, than it would be fair to pay for some support contract.But I would be very disappointed if anything changed for me at all, or even worse, if I had to pay to get firmware updates...Personally, I doubt they will make such a drastic move... If they do, well, Rigol or Siglent.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 10:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 14, 2019, 07:27:33 pmHere's a screen grab of mine.Although it looks like the scope is running off unexpired demos, I think the crucial bit is the "Installed" column. You'll notice, for example, that the MSO row is expired, but is installed. And sure enough the digital channels work.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 10:15:07 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 14, 2019, 09:45:56 pmI'm not sure about that, it's a bit of swings and roundabouts. The Office 365 offer allows you to run it on five machines which just about works for me. The biggest bummer of it is that it doesn't include Visio, that's still on a perpetual licence, and, for example, you cannot coexist Visio 2016 with the current version of Office 365, you have to buy the 2019 Visio for an enormous sum. What utter and complete w@nkers Microsoft are!For me it's about the instrument suddenly not working the same way as it did the day before that is going to be the most disruptive aspect, if that's the way they impose it.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 10:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 14, 2019, 10:08:09 pmFirst column is "Installed", other two columns are new in last firmware, and they show support expiration date, and support status. On mine they are all expired, because I don't have new type support having old type bundle.Regards,

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 07:18:01 am
content: Remember that time when Keysight wanted to compete in the lower end of the market and taught a Chinese company all it needed to know to build an oscilloscope for them, after which the company all but eliminated Keysight's chances in the lower half of the market by using that knowledge for their own oscilloscopes? You'd think they'd have learned a thing or two about giving up their position in the market, but with the new licensing model they seem intent on doing the same for the other half of the market. With younger engineers being used to Chinese alternatives as they probably got started on them and having the options to outright buy the buy equipment instead of leasing it and having maintenance costs it seems Keysight is giving their dominant position away for shorter term gains. I guess they've had a good run.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 08:48:17 am
content: A business model where Keysight charges a lower up front price and instead provides a service contract paid monthly for professional shops that cannot afford any BS or downtime seems workable.This would get a lot more Keysight scopes into the hands of younger engineers and inevitably result in good sales later. It would also make it a lot harder for new entrants to compete.Sadly, thinking further ahead than your nose is something that seems to have gone completely out of fashion these days....

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 08:57:18 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 15, 2019, 08:48:17 amWe already established that Keysight's bottom line has to benefit from the new way of doing things so it's questionable whether things will get more affordable. It also adds liability and the chance of downtime by placing more outside of the direct control of your organisation.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 02:43:13 pm
content: To meaningfully boost Keysight's bottom line, they need to meaningfully increase the number of engineers that choose Keysight products, as well as finding customers willing to pay for continued maintenance.If they just introduce a subscription model that adds to the already high purchase price with little benefit, they would just open the door for their competitors.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 04:18:41 pm
content: I do not think big businesses care about subscription. They have work to be done and they want the equipment supported. It is small guys who will he hurt.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 06:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on August 15, 2019, 04:18:41 pmI agree. The problem (for Keysight) is that if the younger generation gets weaned on Rigol, Siglent, etc. low end products - then those companies could eventually end up in a better position to sell subscriptions at the "bread and butter" level than Keysight.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2019, 06:34:35 pm
content: Before we all get carried away, does anybody know how much they are charging for maintenance, and what the costs of the different types of license (node-locked, floating, time-limited) actually are? A time-limited license might be useful. My main worry is what happens to existing, old-style licenses, which were sold as perpetual, node-locked licenses with no ongoing support charge. Will I have to choose between either not upgrading the instrument firmware after some specific version, losing my existing licenses, or being forced to pay maintenance for them? If so, how much?

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 09:28:41 pm
content: My new toy arrived today, via DHL! I ordered it on 11th August, so it took only 9 days altogether. I haven't had a chance to do more than switch it on and twiddle a few knobs yet. It has firmware 7.20, which only supported the old-style licenses so that settles that issue for the moment. I haven't moved the VGALAN module across from the old scope yet so I can't tell you what is on the status page.I'll try contacting Daniel Bogdanoff with my questions about licenses and firmware upgrades - I can't be the only one in need of clarification.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 07:57:59 am
content: Mine came with 7.20 also, once I'd performed a quick sanity check, I updated to the latest 7.30 version very shortly afterwards.Regarding licensing, definitely I agree that clarification on how they work now and what the plans are ongoing would help.Keep in mind the time of year, Daniel may be on vacation.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 02:44:43 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 14, 2019, 10:15:07 pmUmm, Visio is available on O365, it's just extra, just like Visio is extra with a perpetual license of Office. Same 5 install limit as the rest of the suite, too. I use Visio daily in my job so it was added to my account, and just like Word, Excel, and the rest, I installed it on my work computer and my home computer. It updated to the latest build right along with the standard Office apps, too.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 03:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on August 21, 2019, 02:44:43 pmI think it may be in the Business edition, not the Home as far as I can see.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 04:16:40 pm
content: Yours came with BNC socket covers, and mine didn't! I feel cheated

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 04:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 15, 2019, 06:15:18 pmI suspect this ship has sailed already. Anybody that is paying attention and wants to start with electronics will not consider anything else other than the cheaper brands - the price difference is way too radical to sway newcomers.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 05:18:35 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 21, 2019, 04:16:40 pmIF it makes you feel better, they were a right royal PITA to pull off.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 07:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 21, 2019, 05:18:35 pmYess, I was really close to cutting them off...I replaced them with ones I got, that are deeper (longer ?) so you have something to grab onto.. But in the end, not using them much only on trig in, i have a cable with LED permanently plugged in trigger out and I just use front cover....

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2019, 03:54:33 pm
content: Joined the club today.Now I have some toys to sell to cover the costs, seehere

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2019, 07:21:00 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on August 22, 2019, 03:54:33 pmHaha you joined us on a dark side ...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 10:10:57 am
content: In case this was on anyone's watch list, it looks like they've now re-listed it under a different ID 193059738508, now showing 1 of 5 sold. The original listing 193024964977 was showing 3 of 6 sold last time I looked a day or two ago, that original listing now showing all 6 sold.Sound like they have a secret stash!

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 11:17:44 am
content: Keysight storage clean up?I smell the new generation of black MSOX knocking on the door, which it would be perfect.I personally like to buy expensive products short before EOP: they are cheaper and with bug fixes implemented.It is always risky to buy something just after SOP, we all know that.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 12:30:12 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on August 23, 2019, 11:17:44 amI've been wondering the same thing, the timing is probably about right.I remember purchasing my MSO7104B from KS used a few years back, six months later it was EOL. It's still my go to scope.Regarding purchasing at significant discounts shortly before EOL, it's not a bad investment compared to purchasing one at sticker price and the incurred immediate depreciation of driving out that brand new model from the car showroom.For the sort of semi niche stuff I do as an SME, I can't justify or see the ROI on blowing $20k+ just to get a couple of extra serial decoders, although USB-PD was a nice surprise that I wasn't previous aware of on the 3000T (even though I already had a way of decoding USB-PD).Interestingly the non touch 3000A series is still being sold widely, with sticker prices reasonably close to the 3000T pricing, although as far as I am aware firmware updates are for bug fixes only, so no new functionality.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 12:48:04 pm
content: Problem is they have to redesign whole lineup from new 1000X up..Competition has 10" screens, much higher screen res and 100x more memory on 3000 class scopes.Making that upgrade to 3000T would make current 4000 and 6000 series look bad, so those would need to be refreshed too.We'll see.Truth is it's one helluva of a scope and does pretty much anything I need. I have one long memory and one high res Picoscope for other stuff that 3000T is not so good for. I pretty much have everything covered with that combo.In reality, only thing I could improve would be to get one of those tablet scopes so I can carry it to field.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 12:59:50 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 23, 2019, 12:48:04 pmThe day before I dropped the MSOX3104T bomb, the KS ebay store quoted me a used MSOX4154A+Bundle App for over 12K€... emmm.. no thank you.Quote from: 2N3055 on August 23, 2019, 12:48:04 pmwhich one?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 02:00:13 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 23, 2019, 12:48:04 pmI had great intentions for the Micsigs I have, but in reality they've never been out with me on site. If I'm in the field, either I take the semi-disposable Rigol MSO1104Z-S Swiss Army knife, but mostly I can get away with an Analog Discovery. Only once have I been out in the field and taken a "proper" scope with me recently, but that was an exception, we had a bit of time critical space hardware due for delivery at a launch site, and it was the weekend so the contractor didn't have access to his stores. Believe me, you don't want to be the reason for a delayed launch, or to lose your slot to a lump of concrete. That's where us one-man-bands can come in pretty handy!The downside of taking TE to a customer site is that sometimes it ends up staying there for extended periods in my experience.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 02:02:31 pm
content: The MSOX6104 with touch is really nice and I enjoy working with it. So, no need for me for a MSOX3104T.But I need one MSOX3104T for a client project right now and the scope will be integrated to a test stand for the client. Last week I got a quote from an EU distributor for an outrageous amount of money!What surprised me most, is the fact that I have to pay for the license and for one year usage of that license.See below, it seems to be a new thing.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 02:05:41 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on August 23, 2019, 12:59:50 pmWell, I was also looking at 4000A (bigger screen, bad eyesight), but 3000T is mostly same as 4000A and, yeah price difference was woooooo... I connected 3000T to external 23" monitor...I have Pico 3406D MSO (200MHz, 1GS/sec, 500MS, 4+16ch ) and 4264 (16 Bit , 5MHz, 10MS/sec, 16MS, 2ch )

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 02:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 23, 2019, 02:00:13 pmI also carried DS1074Z to a client site few times (that is only thing I use it for nowadays, i should sell it), but I have projects where I have to troubleshoot things on equipment outdoors.. So no power plug, tablet or handheld format would be really useful..While I don't do such a fancy stuff as aerospace, i do pretty much also mostly get called to fix what other's couldn't. Fine with me, I get to charge decent rates..Regards,Siniša

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 02:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 23, 2019, 02:02:31 pmActually, the way I understood is that you bought fixed license (permanent, non expiring) and 12 months of software support (upgrades).What I think it means is that if KS adds some new protocol into bundle, in that year you will get all the new stuff. Me, with old fixed bundle won't get any new stuff. We can both use options indefinitely.I don't know if I do get updates (debugs and improvements) for the stuff I have licenses for, or I'm cut of any further support unless I pay for support too....

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 03:28:38 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 23, 2019, 02:15:13 pmI don't ever really need a scope outside, but I do use portable SAs, VNAs and multimeters outside for antenna and feed mounted HPA/LNA/converter testing. Again, I provide my own kit, unless I can be sure the customer will have that kit available. The alternative is to waste half a day waiting for TE to be released from stores, and if you're not familiar with it, further precious time learning how to drive it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 06:17:26 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 23, 2019, 12:30:12 pmSome of us old gits may prefer non-touch screens.... I never saw much benefit in the idea of smearing marmite-and-egg-toast-fingers all over a test instrument screen, for example. Touch screens have their place in the world of portable equipment, but I'd rather have a mouse/keyboard connected to the scope than a touch screen...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 08:37:13 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 23, 2019, 06:17:26 pmI’m not going to lie, I’m not much of a fan either. There are a few things that work better on a touch screen, but by far the majority of the time I’m a knob man.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 08:37:47 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 23, 2019, 02:05:41 pmIt is on my list to try to put a 10MHz clock input on the 3000T.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 08:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 23, 2019, 08:37:13 pmJust so and yet a customer dropped by yesterday and even with his new 5kX he's raving about mouse operation and further enhancements he'd like to see added.Each to their own I guess.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 09:23:13 pm
content: I actually like both. Knobs are great for "scope things" like timebase or vertical sensitivity. Positioning things roughly on the screen is easier with touch or mouse, fine positioning is better with a knob etc etc. On screen keyboard is great too.. Even on Picoscope I mainly miss buttons only for timebase, vertical sensitivity and trigger level..All else is just fine with touch (I have large 23" touch screen on a PC dedicated for PC instruments).

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 07:17:57 am
content: Hmmm - there is a small crack in the upper left hand of the screen, 1.5 GHz though -https://www.ebay.com/itm/174007476424

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 07:44:55 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on August 24, 2019, 07:17:57 amWhy does the info screen say MSO-X3104T instead of MSO-X4154A?Do they share the very same firmware?That price is really good for a used 4000X scope

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 07:56:13 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 24, 2019, 07:44:55 amWrong picture obviously, wrong bandwidth and wrong serial number also.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 08:57:31 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on August 24, 2019, 07:17:57 amThe more I think about it, the more I am happy to have got the MSO-X3104T instead of MSO-X4154A, smaller and almost the same. 1,5 GHz are only 2 channels not all four at the same time. Moreover that unit has not the bundle licenses...What I could really miss is the 10MHz input on the 4000X scopes.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 09:28:33 am
content: 4000 has:-2 ch WaveGen (3000T has one)-full Autoprobe interface (3000T has limitations)-4000 has worse timebase accuracy (10ppm vs. 3000T that has ± 1.6 ppm + aging factor that is 10 years: ± 2.0 ppm)-because of that 4000 has 10MHz Ref in.-if you have 1.5GHz version you will have USB 2.0 decode/trigger as option.-big screenEverything else is exactly the same.If those are not a concern to you 3000T is better buy.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 12:09:08 pm
content: The 4000 also has built in lan and VGA out.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 12:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 24, 2019, 09:28:33 amOh yes! I did not know that.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 12:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on August 24, 2019, 12:09:08 pmDid someone know if someone has done the hack to get HDMI instead of the VGA in the 3000 plug in module?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 01:39:50 pm
content: USB 2.0 HS decode would be a nice addition to the 3104T, it's there on the competitor Tek MDO3104 (and MDO4104).The MDOs stipulate the use of a differential probe (it will decode with the stock TPP1000 passive probes but it's very marginal). So it is possible at 1GHz BW. It's theoretically possible at 250MHz brickwall BW, although 500MHz is probably a more practical limit. The MDO does decode quite well even if you impose a 250MHz channel limit, with the thresholds being adjusted appropriately. All this seems fine at 2.5 or 5Gsa/s sample rate, so I don't see it as anything more than an artificial restriction on the 3104T (or the 500MHz models from Tek and KS). The decode fails at 1.25GSa/s and below.On another subject, what are the use cases for a 10MHz ref in on a scope?Edit: I see that USB HS decode is available on the KS 4000X 1GHz and 1.5GHz models, just the signal integrity option requires the 1.5GHz model. So I guess it's a marketing imposed limitation in the end on the 3104T.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 05:21:32 pm
content: The USB HS decode could probably be "enabled"(as can 1.5 GHz bw) but who wants to do firmware hacking when you've bought a nice scope with warranty and the full license bundle.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 07:46:10 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 24, 2019, 01:39:50 pmSee detailshere: basically the scope will be synchronized with the external timebase.I guess jitter reduction if you are measuring time stuff. IMHO it could be a nice hack on the 3000, but a few real user cases for that.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 08:52:31 am
content: Quote from: zucca on August 26, 2019, 07:46:10 am8-digit frequency counter is a handy feature I have missed on my 7000 and 3000A. I didn’t realise on the 7000 it magically becomes 8 digits with an external reference. My 10MHz rubidium distro unit has been stuck in a cupboard since I moved a few weeks ago, perhaps it’s time to fire it up again.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 09:26:10 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 26, 2019, 08:52:31 amOh yes, a nice solid 10Mhz rubi (short term) and/or some satellite clock (long term) are mandatory.Well some high prio projects are pressing at the moment. Maybe one day I will investigate the 10MHz input hack on the 3000.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 07:38:46 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on August 23, 2019, 08:37:13 pmAfter a few weeks using mine I find the thing I really like the touch screen for is setting 'weird' vertical scales and offsets. I'd like 4V/div and 16V offset please - working on a circuit powered from +30V. Much easier than fiddly knob push/twiddle sessions.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 10:07:25 am
content: The on screen touch keyboard is definitely a big improvement, and is probably my biggest use case for the touch screen. (The Tek MDO3000 and MDO4000 have a small physical numeric keyboard which is useful, but really frustratingly it’s not always active - I dread to think what spaghetti code resides underneath the hood in those scopes.)The 3104T is currently located above the PC monitor on my bench set up, and I have a wireless mouse hooked up to it which is situated on my under desk keyboard drawer shelf. All of the touch functions are available with the mouse, it’s pretty smart.The downside of this scope when located above working head height is that you have to physically tilt it downwards, as the screen’s unreadable otherwise.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 12:09:16 pm
content: As oscilloscopes gradually become more like specialized computers, it is only natural that their user interface becomes some kind of a morph between a CRO and a computer, I guess...

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 03:24:53 pm
content: I've started a new thread on the minor issues I have so far found with my instrument:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-msox3104t-minor-niggles/new/#new