Any advice on selling self-made hardware - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 10:20:27 am
content: So i have got some products made, and some accompanying products (to support the custom electronics).I want to start selling. I have got some options as what stores is concerned.I can start with my own webshop, on my own website. Including generating website traffic, and thus brand building.Getting possible buyers to my website will take time and advertisement investment.Tindie is a viable option, and has a 10% cut. I think it's do-able, because the buyers are already there.Ebay is a good space, i also get comments for being lost in the noise. But i think ebay is big enough, with good SEO focus it can stand out.I'm from belgium, i would like to start with europe shipping exclusively.Any tips / suggestions will be very welcome

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 10:42:43 am
content: 1) Ensure your product is EMC, safety and RoHS compliant, that it has the CE mark, and that you have all the necessary documentation to back this up (technical file, test results etc).2) Everything else.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 10:47:05 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on January 14, 2023, 10:42:43 amOr just sell few dozens as "prototypes". No one cares. Hobbyists do not care; corporate customers understand that they actually are prototypes and exempt of CE requirements (just like any prototypes said corporation would themselves produce).For consumer mass market, obviously you can't avoid doing everything you mentioned, so better prepare some 10-20k€ of funding and a few months of time for learning everything related. Or extra 10k to hire a consultant, standards are numerous; you need someone who can offhand say which standard is relevant for your product.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 11:23:04 am
content: Yes. While i do have T&M equipment for conducted and radiation measurements, i can make the rapports.Stuff sold on tindie is mostly prototyping stuff, so no CE is required.I am going to sell a current deskew device, which is powered from USB-C or external 5V.I could do some extra filtering on there, and measure it to provide the test results, it will be used in a lab environment.So i think i'm quite safe there.Makes me wonder where to draw the line, and from which point i have to do some self-certification with my testgear.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 05:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: Ribster on January 14, 2023, 11:23:04 amI don't think it works that way, at least in Europe. If you sell to end users (consumers, not business-to-business), you need to ensure your product is CE compliant, and have documentation ready in case someone asks.If you have the ability to measure conducted and radiated emissions and noise immunity, more power to you. For the typical hobbyist wanting to sell some home-made gadget or kit, the "no one will care" approach suggested by Siwastaja is probably the only option. It is likely to work -- unless you piss someone off who tries to retaliate by sending the authorities your way.If you want to take the "selling B2B only" route, I think the burden of verifying that your customers are businesses would be on you. I.e. you would have to ask for proof (business registration or such) before selling to them. Again, the "no one will care" approach may work, until it does not.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 05:45:21 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 14, 2023, 10:47:05 amIt doesn't work that way either, I'm afraid. If the "prototypes" are meant for productive use in the customer's lab, your selling them is "putting them onto the market". I am not aware of any formal exemption based on the size of your production series.And, depending on what your product does, corporate customers may indeed care very much about CE compliance. After all, they are responsible for workplace health & safety, and that is typically taken seriously.If it is a true prototype, i.e. a design to be evaluated by the customer before they order more from you (or build their own copies and pay you a fee), that's a different matter, I understand. These would indeed by exempt from CE requirements. But of course it would be the corporate customer's responsibility that a final product incorporating this design will be CE compliant, and they may request proof of CE compliance from the original designer/vendor at that point.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 05:51:25 pm
content: I was commenting about "true" prototypes, more or less. That's not clear cut, but obviously lab equipment sold as operational stuff you only turn on, read manuals and use cannot be exempt from the regulations by such trickery. But some one-off thing that customer evaluates and uses as a component in their own process could be a "prototype".

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 06:52:41 pm
content: Depends on the product, EMI, mains , safety etcA handheld battery gaget or USB powered is a differnt issue than a 240V mains powered 1 KW machihe or a high voltage or lase thing.better on electronic sites likle EEVblog>>BSW or Groups IOAvoid ebay.A local person to person site is good, Cragilist, PAP, Le Bon Coin (France) sure there are some in BelgiuJon

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 07:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on January 14, 2023, 10:42:43 amAre there any one stop shops or services in the UK/Europe that will help with this that are affordable for low volume production?

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 08:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: djsb on January 14, 2023, 07:11:28 pmWell, "affordable" and "low volume" are kind of vague.I provide this kind of advice/service as a business, so yes, you can fine people providing a "turn-key" solution to get CE.Most test-labs would provide this as well.Costs really depends on the product.If there's only RoHS, you'll get away with 1k for getting some documents written.If you product is rather simple:For EMCD, add 5k for accredited testingFor LVD another 5k for accredited testingRED adds 5k for testing to EMCD+LVD (the RED includes both).Whoever supports you with expertise to draw up a CE declaration, choose the right standards and compiles the documentation, will also want his time paid...As a ball-park figure, just add half of the costs for testing.The more test you need, the more thought goes into choosing the right ones and the more documents need to be written, checked and archived.Please keep in mind that these numbers above consider testing in accredited labs.Depending on the quality of the documentation you get from your suppliers (eg. test reports for your radio module), there's quite some variation in both directions...But this isn't the real problem!In the EU, you have additional problems with packaging and e-waste.This is done per country!So you need to talk to waste and packaging associations in 27 different countries or pay premium to get someone to do this for you... pretty annoying.73

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 08:44:04 pm
content: This is simply depressing

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 09:26:36 pm
content: Well, I haven't talked about the requirements (ie. the standards) changing at least once a year (not all of them, but usually at least one of the applied standards will).So you need to check regularly and see if something relevant has changed and if you need to (re-)test something.This also costs quite some money if you sell "just" 100pcs a year.What's really depressing is, that people give a shit and buy dubious stuff from e.g. AliExpress while you try to make safe and good products.On the other hand, lots of people just put CE on their products, because nobody could really afford the "correct way".Since I'm also involved in standardization, I try to explain this crazy situation to authorities.They do understand, but in the end, people request even more strict rules because there's dangerous and interfering stuff on the market, and it's getting worse.Now things get more expensive which makes it even more unfeasible to make products according to the "rules", and we get more strict standards because of more violations,....73

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 09:40:03 pm
content: Forgot...complianceEU..RoHs WEEEusa Conflict mineralstax EU VATUK Brexit paperworkusa customs tariffssafety...UL, TUV, VDE, ETLjon

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 09:43:51 pm
content: I'm sure the commonly sold dev boards, especially those made in China and sold on amazon and such, aren't compliant with anything*. They simply sell them as parts rather than finished devices.What I would suggest though, is while there's not much point in meeting specific regulations, do ensure you provide a very good datasheet with whatever you sell, this ought to give it a positive point to distinguish it from all the cheaply made and imported products you'd be competing with.*not necessarily that they wouldn't pass various tests, but definitely nobody did such tests or documented them, and certainly nobody mucked around with legalistic paperwork about those tests

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 10:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on January 14, 2023, 09:43:51 pmWell, you can go this route... then you just need RoHS... IEC 63000 would be a good reference and the contents are IMHO common sence.For a simple product, this can be easily done in an afternoon.However, just leaving out an enclosure isn't really making a "component" out of a product.If an end-user would use it, it's still a product.Places like Tindie or these "crap-resellers" on Amazon have destroyed the possibility of selling lowish-cost small quantity products.If everyone around you just ignores all rules, you're not gonna get competitive... at least if you sell to end-customers.B2B is way more relaxed.73

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 10:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: Ribster on January 14, 2023, 11:23:04 amThat's good.Note that you could put a CE mark on your products and never do any testing to back it up. Self-marking is your own responsibility 100%. Nobody is going to check what you have done behind this CE mark until there's a problem in the field. If you have your whole technical documentation up to date, plus EMC tests (even if not accredited) and basic electrical safety tests, you'll be ahead of probably 90% of all vendors already.This of course applies only to devices that can be self-marked. Regulated fields, such as medical devices, or cars, are a completely different story.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 10:52:39 pm
content: From what I understand (I'm not on that continent), EU selling to EU means you have to have a two-year warranty on what you sell. So price accordingly.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 11:02:25 pm
content: I would always only sell CE UL ROHS marked products and never sell anything without........But I have amatewho sell his own products for years and it has not been a problem. If you were selling mass market, yea goes get CE/UL (you should be able to afford it at that point) but if you are selling a few hundred of something, you will be fine.Note that product liability insurance probably won't cover you for not having markings. Don't take my word for it.Do this via a limited company so you are one step away from any liability claims.Not a lawyer.

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 01:17:48 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 14, 2023, 10:20:19 pmNot entirely true... There are regular market surveillance campaigns. If you manage to get one of those lucky products, you get assessed.So you'd better have some measurements... It's tough to demonstrate compliance without data. However, if you have non-accredited ones, and the product is fine, you will be good.It is just if you get some complaints... Liability is nothing I would underestimate. But that's a general thing if you're doing business....73

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 10:46:22 am
content: It seems that our notes are speculation.I cant comment further unti the OP can reveal:Type of device?Power source?Potential emissions ?Quantity per year expected?Country of origin?Areas exporting to?With this info we can give the OP more cogent advise.Jon

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 11:01:24 am
content: I would just put a website together and just put it on the internet. Be clear about what you are selling, the specs, and the lack of certification. Say it's for research and hobby use only.But use the knowledge you do have to make the products as close to conforming as you can. If you start to sell enough of them then go down the route of getting them tested and certified.There are a lot of rules and hoops for people to jump through to get into the market but at the same time as long as you are not selling tons of them or they are outright dangerous the regulators just don't have the time to chase you.ebay/Amazon/Social Media are full of dodgy products and people selling stuff from home. Very few get done, and even if they do they usually only get caught due to copyright issues selling knockoffs.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 01:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on January 15, 2023, 10:46:22 amI am not the OP, but in contrast to you I have read his posts:- Current deskew device- Powered from USB-C or external 5V.- Emissions: not much info, expecpt that he considers them unproblematic.- Selling specialized lab equipment on Tindie or ebay, so probably a couple dozen.- Country of origin Belgium- Plans to sell to Europe only (for now)

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 03:11:47 pm
content: Since 5 yrs have sold a few per yr small USB/battery powered machine from France, never had any issues. You dont need so many cautions, low V low emission, no bad risks.Sell on ebay or any person to person site/forum. For scych small Q a website is not worthwhile.I think Best for such a specialized gadget is right here on EEV Blog!Jon

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 03:39:37 pm
content: Can confirm it's around 5kEUR or a bit more for accredited EMC.But you don't need accredited service (unless you are doing it for medical or other special fields). That being said, you won't get any significant discount because the lab time spent is the same.I don't think it's a big problem. Not enough monez -> sell a few hundred to suitable customers, no one cares. See how the market responds, get some money and commit to the project. Go step by step.Your device of course needs to be designed properly not to cause problems.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 03:47:26 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 14, 2023, 10:47:05 amQuote from: Siwastaja on January 15, 2023, 03:39:37 pmNow there's inflation for you. 800% within a matter of days...

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 03:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 15, 2023, 01:30:18 pmWow, i was not expecting so much feedback! Have been busy, sorry for lack of feedback.I think adafruit got around the thing by selling 'kits'. So add the headers so it's required you alter the product, and that way the liability changes to the end user.Since i can do emissions measurement and conducted measurements, i can provide data which only takes me some time.It's true that full compliant measurements are in the order of 10K for a product to be tested. Here in belgium it's the Blueguide EMC lab, that can handle such things.Normally you would do pre-compliance at home, to work out the kinks of the product. And then do a pre-compliance test (2K i think), before spending much more on the fully compliant tests.It's a bit chicken and egg problem i think, you need to know your product sells (enough interest), and then you can be assured you will get the money back.But producing a USB > UART converter like the CH340 boards you see everywhere, it's nearly impossible to make profit for this.There is a 'low voltage directive' for sub 50V that is cheaper. So making the devices work with 24V or USB-C, will alleviate a lot of hassle.I do have an LLC to put everything behind, with a good insurance when things do turn south.The products are mostly for lab use, so one could assume that they know what they are doing, adding the hobbyist / prototype remark just wont cut it i assume.I'm going to launch with a RF prototyping board, it's just a PCB with SMA connectors they can solder on.Also some LED boards, which are just some leds on a PCB.I think i can get away with not measuring them, because they are a 'sub-assembly'.The current deskew device (which puts a fast square wave on a wire) will spew out a lot of EMI i guess.But you need a fast rising edge, to actually measure the time deskew from your current probe. So the product is inherently a mess to get qualified i guess.The radiation / conduction critical products i will test before launching (to be sure), and then maybe provide the measurements in the manual ?It's the wild west out there, but making low cost hardware for DIY people is not really accounted for in the legislation, unless there are some excemptions for this ?

author: lutkeveld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 03:39:42 pm
content: This is not legal advice, but you can get away with a lot when selling direct to consumer in low volume if it is not a hazardous product.A product that is not working can be okay in the beginning, but you do not want lawsuits because of high voltage, exploding batteries etc.Stick as much to pre-certified components and best practices as possible. For example, use an AC/DC adapter instead of trying to integrate it into your product.Renting a lab for pre-compliance can also be a reasonably priced sanity check.Then when volume ramps up and there is more budget, you can always run more certification.And as to the selling itself:I have sold hardware products via resellers, but they take a big percentage and require stock upfront.Especially in the beginning this can be a deadly combination, sometimes even prohibiting sales via a reseller if your margin is too low.Something like Tindie is quite okay, does not take too much margin, and requires very little effort.Your own store (Shopify/Woocommerce) is the most flexible, but can require a bit of a time investment to set up.Depending on your platform, integration with external tools like bookkeeping and shipping software can be a real timesaver once you scale up.

author: L1L1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 01:26:57 pm
content: Quote from: Ribster on January 14, 2023, 10:20:27 amI would also suggestlectronz.comThat platform has all the tools needed for tax (VAT) calculation if you are a business. And for sellers that are outside the EU, Lectronz can help with imports in the EU through IOSS.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2023, 04:07:33 pm
content: exactly what is a "current deskew device"What is the market in potential sales perhaps year, eg 100/1k/10k/100k?what is,the existing competitive devices on the market?Jon