How to order 10-50 pcs of my own pcb design - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 04:35:47 pm
content: Hi! I`m oldschool electican. So sorry for stupid questionsI see banners what says '10 PCBs for $2' and similarIs it real?Can I order manufacturing 10-50 my own pcbs? What price is affordable? What way is reliable?My pcbs wery simple - 1-2 layers and mask acuracy of 1.5mm is satisfactory for me

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 04:42:04 pm
content: It appears to be real. But note that the downside is delivery time (and sometimes shipping costs). It is not unusual for delivery time to be 3-4 weeks or even longer. And it is not unusual for the shipping price to exceed the actual cost of getting the boards made. Although it appears that some clever vendors are exploiting government-subsidized "free shipping". Perhaps shipping to Russia may be somewhat faster and cheaper since you are "right next-door", only a few 1000 km/miles away.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 05:09:07 pm
content: Check outPCBShopper.com. It's a price comparison site for PCB manufacturing. You enter your board's specs, click "Get Prices", and you'll see prices, including delivery costs, from up to 25 PCB manufacturers, including the best known companies in Asia, North America, and Europe. You can also read and write Amazon-style reviews of the companies.Disclosure: I run the site.- Bob Alexander

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 05:14:28 pm
content: Thanx!But who experienced in small pcb orders?I wanna be deal with safe manufacturer, not swindlers/roguesWho is who in China?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 05:21:06 pm
content: Everything you see on PCBShopper is reliable to an extent. Or just go with PCBWay. They are annoying with their spam, but cheap and reliable.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 05:21:49 pm
content: You should find many real customer reviews on the PCBShopper.com website. I would consider them to be reliable.My perception is that MOST of the vendors are in China.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 05:39:12 pm
content: Everyone on PCBShopper's price comparison list is a well known company with many years' experience filling small order for hobbyists. Many of the companies also fulfill big orders for corporate customers.I get requests from many small, unknown companies to be added to the price list. I could spend my entire life writing code to add companies that no one has ever heard of. I don't do that. One of my criteria for a company to be added is that they be fairly well known. Also, I never accept money for companies to be added to the price list. Companies pay for ads on PCBShopper, but the price comparison list is "editorial content": it's not paid for and it's purely my judgement which companies should be on the list.- Bob AlexanderPCBShopper.com

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 06:09:40 pm
content: I use dangerous prototypes and have never had any problems. If I need it I will pay for expedited shipping but I am not usually that desperate.I have had maybe half a dozen different boards off them in a variety of specs and not had a duffer yet.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 07:20:50 pm
content: I'd be wary of what shows up on pcbshopper website and double-check everything with the actual fab as there are some discrepancies. For example, it shows easyeda as the cheapest option when I select 4 mil traces/8 mil drills, but they can only make 6 mil traces/12 mil drills (which you can clearly see on their website).I personally use mostly PCBWay and allpcb. I prefer PCBWay because they offer free selection of soldermask colors, and I like their status tracking - many fabs work kinda like black box, where you throw in order on one side, and eventually it falls out the other end, with very little visibility on what's happening inside.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 07:40:42 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on October 25, 2017, 07:20:50 pmI take PCBShopper's accuracy very seriously. PCBShopper gets its prices by querying manufacturers' web sites, so it's inherently accurate and when a manufacturer changes its prices on its web site, PCBShopper picks it up automatically and immediately.But sometimes, manufacturers change their capabilities without letting me know and without changing the back-end code on their site. As soon as I find out about these changes, I fix PCBShopper very quickly - usually in 24 hours or less.For example, I have just fixed PCBShopper's reporting of EasyEDA's 4 mil trace/8 mil drill capabilities (i.e. PCBShopper no longer shows EasyEDA as an option for those specs). Not to brag, but I fixed this problem 20 minutes after it was reported.There's a Contact Us link on PCBShopper's site. I urge everyone to use it when they find an error on PCBShopper. Your e-mail will not vanish into an opaque bureaucracy. PCBShopper is just me, and I'm very responsive.- Bob AlexanderPCBShopper.com

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 08:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on October 25, 2017, 07:40:42 pmI didn't mean to offend you, it's just the reality of things, I always try to get in touch with the actual company I will be contracting to do some work as intermediates may not be up to date with the end manufacturing. I had some issues in the past where I would get a quote from intermediate agent, which would end up rising twofold because pricing structure at the manufacturer's end had changed.But while we're on a subject, please take a look at OSH Park - it shows up too for 4/4/8 mil request, while they only offer 5/5/10 mil process. Also allpcb shows up for 6-layer board with 4/4/8 mil process while they can only do 5/5/12 mil.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 09:45:35 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on October 25, 2017, 08:26:13 pmFixed. Thank you for letting me know.Quote from: asmi on October 25, 2017, 08:26:13 pmI'm not offended, and I agree that prices should always be double-checked with the manufacturer - I even have a note on PCBShopper to that effect (the Disclaimer at the bottom of the page, where probably no one ever sees it).But when someone finds an error on PCBShopper, I would rather have them contact me so that I can fix it, rather than posting on a forum where I might never see it. (I try to keep an eye on eevblog's forums, but I can't guarantee even here that I'll see everything anyone posts about PCBShopper.)- Bob AlexanderPCBShopper.com

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 07:10:58 am
content: I just received 5 pieces of each of 3 PCB designs fromElecrow. The boards were all okay except one which had a little piece of copper eroded out of the side of one trace. But for $1 per board, I can't complain.Also, it took 3 weeks from order date until I received the boards.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 07:31:00 am
content: Yeah, elecrow are totally fine.The only bad thing about elecrow that i've come across is their black color solder mask is crap now (it used to be fine).It's definitely not good enough to use as a front panel for a product your selling.The black mask has bubbles/marks on it that makes it look terrible. (electrically it's totally fine)I questioned them about this, they apologized and remade the PCBs at their expensive.However their replacements PCBs were only slightly better.So yeah, they cannot do nice looking black solder mask, ya just have to accept that.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 08:00:20 am
content: Seeed Studio (https://www.seeedstudio.com/fusion_pcb.html) have a good PCB service that I have used a few times. Pricing is on size, from $1 each for a 50mm x 50mm 2-layer board (qty 10).At such a low price expect them to give you exactly what your files ask for, even if it is obviously wrong. This definitely not a 'full service' price - you have to expect to do all the work, they just.make the boards.They can even do assembly for you if you use their standard parts.Would plan on doing 10 boards as a test run, then order a batch of the Rev 2 boards which are 100% once you have built them up - way better than bodging 50 boards because you can't get the cap or transistor in the footprint that was in the library...

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 08:13:58 am
content: I don't know about other manufacturers but Seeed (dangerous prototypes) don't care what's on the PCB as stated, so if there are 10 boards on a 10x10 cm you end up with 100 boards.For example I have a board that can fit three on a 10x10 so ended up with 30 PCBs. As these were for an ESP12 it is easy to add pads for general use so the PCB I have is easily usable for prototyping other stuff.

author: pilleya
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 10:44:34 am
content: That is pretty handy, I tried doing that with PCBway and JLC/EASYEDA but they raised the price, they won't let you have multiple boards in the 10x10 panel for prototyping. TBH doesn't make much difference as for production stuff I do lead-free anyway which isn't an option with the whole $5 prototype thing.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 03:11:38 pm
content: Another "vote" for Elecrow. They currently have a 10 for the price of 5 sale going on. I ordered three different designs. It took a little more than two weeks to arrive. Pretty good quality. I actually got a lot more than thirty boards. I got ten of one design, fifteen of the second and nineteen of the third. I guess that they just filled up a sheet that would otherwise have been empty?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 05:39:41 pm
content: Allpcb currently runs free shipping to US/Canada promo till Nov 23rd - this is BIG! Grad while you can! Now you can actually have $5 boards cost you 5$ flat.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 06:28:05 pm
content: I saw an ad for $5 PCB on PCBWay. The specs are no good, and if you change anything it is no longer $5. But 100x100mm is actually a big board. So I decided to design a simple board to the specs - I used mostly TH component and designed ancient sparsely populated 100x100mm board. I ordered 10 of them. It is $5, but the total was $18 which included economy shipping to Canada and $2 PayPal surcharge (sic!). Quality was actually better than I expected. So, it's absolutely real.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 07:29:29 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on October 26, 2017, 06:28:05 pmI like that they allow a fair selection of soldermask colors for free. To amortise shipping changes it's better to order several boards in one go, or order boards along with stencil as it's $10 and they cut it to size themselves (so they won't have to ship big 19x29 cm sheet which is mostly empty).

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2017, 07:17:41 pm
content: I've had good luck with PCBWay. Just got a 50x100 mm board done with them. Boards are cheap, shipping not so much. 10 boards with DHL shipping was $27. I received them in 6 calendar days. I like that you can track the progress in the fab. My other vendors don't give that level of detail. Never had a problem. Their black solder mask is pretty good, by the way. I'm not in love with their silkscreen quality, though. Done maybe 10 boards through them so far.For small boards, I use OSH Park. They are pretty good, use a USA vendor. Pretty variable in their delivery times. I've had 7 to 14 day service. One last August took 20 days but most are closer to 10ish. They quote 14 days. Two layer costs $5/insq for 3 boards with low cost shipping. I did have one dud from them (solder mask covered all the pads) which they made good on.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 05:41:09 pm
content: Absolutely agree with this advice.Quote from: asmi on October 25, 2017, 07:20:50 pm

author: EncomLab
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 02:32:36 pm
content: I've been using SEEED Studio for a year or so and around ~1000 boards total across 7 different designs. I live in Ohio and it takes 8-14 days from the time I submit my Gerbers until the DHL package is at my door, and since all my designs are under 10cmX10cm I pay less than $30 US including shipping. Never had a defective board, screenprint is always good and I'm very happy with their service. My last order I only paid shipping as I received a "good customer" coupon

author: noras
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 04:04:03 am
content: you can get sponsorship from pcbway as you are a teacher,free to get the pcb

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 06:17:27 am
content: For small boards, and a proto run (3 boards), it's hard to beat oshparkFor a larger run (10), I've used DirtyPCBs and I just placed a 100 order with them; I'll report when they arrive, but the last batch they did were fine.

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 09:45:28 am
content: oldschool electican?Please PM me and I will sponsor the pcb for you.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 10:50:25 am
content: That’s an interesting board blueskull. Do you have a pic of it populated? Why does it need to be so tiny?

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 02:44:23 am
content: Quote from: ansonbao on November 09, 2017, 09:45:28 amI have a question. You silently add some sort of serial number to the silk screen design. Is there any way to get rid of it?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 03:39:08 am
content: Quote from: ansonbao on November 09, 2017, 09:45:28 amI have a question. Why can't I put six of my 30x40mm boards into your 100x100mm?What's the difference to your fab process? I don't need scoring or routing.It just seems like an artificial way of increasing sales/profits.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 03:56:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 10, 2017, 03:52:42 amSure, they will "panelize them for free", but they will charge me as much for a 30x40 as for 100x100 so "free panelization" doesn't seem like much of a deal at 6x the price.

author: Fortran
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 05:43:53 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 26, 2017, 07:31:00 amYou must have had bad luck then. My boards don't look anything like that.One arrived yesterday. The other about 6 months ago.

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:03:26 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on November 10, 2017, 02:44:23 amserial number is used for our shipping department,or they will crazy.If you don't need it just send mail to your sale rep before production.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:11:07 am
content: Ansonbao, you missed this question.. Why do you charge extra for having more than one designQuote from: Richard Crowley on November 10, 2017, 03:39:08 am

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:13:04 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 10, 2017, 03:39:08 amThe six pcb is the same design?If yes,we will take this as one panel but will add other material fee.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 10:54:06 am
content: Quote from: ansonbao on November 10, 2017, 10:13:04 amNot answered. WHY is there "other material fee"? What "other material" is there here? We don't understand? And what difference if same or different designs? Pattern is pattern. Holes are holes. This seems like an arbitrary policy that has nothing to do with technical production complexity.

author: JPlocher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 04:17:22 pm
content: It is an arbitrary policy aimed at distinguishing between "prototyping" and "production" use cases, and serves the purpose of keeping the fab company's profit margins healthy. We all know that the the fabs all try to offer cheap prototyping services at a wash/loss in the hope that your bulk, profitable production orders will also come to them.By some definition, a panelized design isn't a prototype any longer, and therefore doesn't fall under their subsidized cheap prototypes price point.Get over it. So what if it costs you $10 for 10 boards instead of $5 for 10 - compare against $30-$50 for 3x boards elsewhere and be happy that prototyping is so inexpensive.-John

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 04:39:24 pm
content: No, different designs. Why do you charge extra fees if i put two or three different designs on a pcb.Quote from: ansonbao on November 10, 2017, 10:13:04 am

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 04:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: JPlocher on November 10, 2017, 04:17:22 pmI don't think so. It is not for you to decide what it takes for the people to be happy.For prototyping, I mostly use Oshpark. Since prototyping boards are usually small, it comes out to be the cheapest, and, at the same time, offers the highest quality. They don't ask me what I do and how I'm going to use their boards. Even if I would buy them to tile my bathroom, it doesn't bother them a bit. It isnot their businesshow I use their boards. They just produce the boards as advertised. If I order something from them and then they call back to me and say that they need to charge me more because they think I'm going to use their boards to make money, I will stop using them the same day.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 06:36:46 pm
content: I'm hopeing Anson will be able to provide an answer to the question of why multiple designs on the same pcb have extra charges. I'm wanting him to provide the answer. The opinions of others are interesting but wont' provide the answer that i'm seeking a definitative answer on.Quote from: JPlocher on November 10, 2017, 04:17:22 pm

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 06:56:20 pm
content: The strong appearance is that it is an arbitrary marketing policy that has nothing to do with the technical process.In fact, it takes human eyeballs to even see whether there are any duplicated patterns on the board. Else the process wouldn't know the difference.It appears that it is a "loss-leader" product that they don't want "abused" for "production".Apparently there are SOME vendors who don't care what is inside the 100x100mm space.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:01:15 pm
content: well hopefully anson can tell usQuote from: Richard Crowley on November 10, 2017, 06:56:20 pm

author: rsfoto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on October 25, 2017, 04:35:47 pmHi,I made some first PCB this year and worked with PCBway. I am not an expert but quality looks good to me.My second batch were 10 different PCB and because it is still in prototyping I only ordered 5 pieces. One of the Gerber files had errors. I got en e-mail from them with an image explaining what was wrong. I corrected it and then they went into production.I ordered them on October 3rd and got them October 10. So about 7 days wait and if I remember well in China those days they were in Holidays and started production until 5th of October. So turn around time is very fast. I do live in Mexico.Below an image of what I send them. The smallest PCB is 10mm by 18mm. The silkscreen writing is good and easily redable. All in all I paid US $ 78.00 including shipping for this production. IS $ 1.00 per piece plus US $ 25.00 for shipping. % times cheaper then any producer here in Mexico.All in all I am very satisfied so far with them.regards Rainer

author: rsfoto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 10, 2017, 06:56:20 pmInteresting rant :-)I just went to their site in the internet and made a calculation.My smallest board in the last batch was 10x18mmOK I can panel 50 pieces on a 100mm x 90mm and the minimum quantity is 5 boards so I would get 250 PCB in 18mm x 10mm size and that would cost me US 27.00 plus shippingNow I went into the next calculation and input 18x10mm and 250 pieces and that would cost US $ 43.00for US $ 16.00 difference ¿ do you really want to mess with separating 5x 50 pieces ? that is a piece difference of US $ 0.064 per piece (US $ 16.00 / 250pieces). For that difference I would not do that messy job ... let them cut up my 250 boards :-)regards Rainer

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 07:59:50 pm
content: Quote from: rsfoto on November 10, 2017, 07:27:48 pmYes, I agree for such small boards.But I have several designs that are all ~ 30x40mm or 30x50mm. Pretty easy to cut apart after populating and soldering. In that size range, the price difference seems much more substantial. Not to mention the convenience of handling panelized units during assembly.

author: rsfoto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 09:37:35 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 10, 2017, 07:59:50 pmUnderstood. I am just a manual assembler and solder. :-)

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 03:02:45 am
content: Im not ranting, but i want to understand ( from Anson ) why they charge extra fees if you put several designs on the same board. I cant' see why it costs more, than having single designs, but their may be a good reason, and it would be good to know. Otherwise we are guessing, and just offering our opinions based on what we dont know.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 05:38:34 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 11, 2017, 03:36:09 amThanks for your cents. I'll put them in the collection. What i'm really interested in is 100 Yuan of information from Anson.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 08:23:44 am
content: It doesn't matter what it costs. All that matters is what customers are prepared to pay.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 02:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 11, 2017, 03:02:45 amMaybe because they can ? Or maybe because the value to the customer is higher and therefore they can charge a little extra (because of this added value). It is not so that you only pay for the raw materials in the first place... No matter what, the prices are VERY reasonable in the first place (and I guess the PCB fabs needs to make a living like the rest of the world...)

author: rsfoto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:14:50 pm
content: ¿ maybe because we live in a free economy and everybody can set their prices and selling policies as they want ?¿ and maybe because everybody is free to buy wherever he wants to buy ?¿ and maybe because nobody forces anybody to buy where they do not want to buy ?

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on November 11, 2017, 08:23:44 amIt also matters what was advertised. If you get an online quote, get prepared to pay the said amount, then you place an order and then next day you find out that you have to pay extra because you have BGA, multiple designs, used PayPal, used Mastercard etc. etc. So, next time you don't know how much you need to be prepared to pay. Many people (me for example) would prefer firm quotes even if the price was slightly higher.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 05:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on November 11, 2017, 02:12:44 pmMaybe. But i'm wanting to know at a higher level of certainty than maybe. I'd really like to hear from Ansonbao why his companys pricing includes charges for having multiple designs on a single pcb.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 07:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on November 11, 2017, 04:32:20 pmFair point. So that should be the question, not this naive notion that everyone just passes their costs directly through to their customers and adds a markup.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 07:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on November 11, 2017, 07:04:36 pm

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 03:46:25 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 10, 2017, 10:54:06 amHere I make a brief explanation:The reason why the cost of panel pcb will increase is it lower substrate utilization.PCB substrate is a fixed size, when your board is small, manufacturers can make panel by themselves, so the rate of substrate utilization is high and less waste area, the cost will decrease.But if your design is panel, the manufacturer must treat your panel as the basic unit, so the rate of substrate utilization is low and the cost will rise. And it need V-cut and route.And some un-normal panel design is not convenient for engineering data processing and data testing, it will take more time for factory engineers. Such as 5 different kinds pcb in one panel, but no V-cut and slot, if something wrong with just one kind, the entire board has to be scrapped.For most pcb manufacturers in China, they offer special offer below 100mm*100mm(panel design is not included),like us $5/10pcs. So I suggest you can place order separately to save cost.I understand someone still have questions, it is a complex process from upload file to completion of pcb production. PCBWay welcome everyone to visit our factory.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 04:24:42 am
content: Quote from: ansonbao on November 13, 2017, 03:46:25 amThankyou anson that is helpful.