Vehicles kept off road require insurance - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 10:30:14 am
content: I realise that this is getting pretty political, but seems so important that a wider audience is neededCourt of Justice of the EUCase C-80/17Vehicles kept off road require insurance.As read in The Times, 30 October 2018.As I understand the case.A lady in Portugal took her vehicle off the road due to health reasons. It was parked on private property.She had not taken any steps formally to withdraw it from use. Whatever that means.Her son took the vehicle, without either her knowledge or permission, and killed himself and two passengers.The court decided that the vehicle required insurance, even though it wasn’t used, had no intention of being used, was parked on private property.Relevant directive is 72/116/EEC about insurance for civil liabilities.What if someone steals a vehicle?What if you are doing up a vehicle?What is a vehicle? A mechanically propelled vehicle? So includes invalid buggies, ride on mower, machinery, almost anything?Comments?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 10:43:29 am
content: It is the EU. They are long past the era when it had to make sense in the Real World.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 10:49:13 am
content: In my own State of Western Australia, registration of a vehicle includes compulsory third party insurance.If you de-register the vehicle, it does not require insurance, but is illegal to use on the road.Note:-If you keep registering the car,it is assumed you can use it on the road.Other Australian States have similar laws, except that you have to arrange the compulsory insurance yourself.Possibly Portugal has similar rules, as well.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 10:54:41 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 31, 2018, 10:43:29 amSorry but that is utter nonsense. As the owner you are responsible for damage done with your car. This is true in the EU and the USA (and probably many other places). Because the (monetary) amount of damage can easely add up to more than anyone will ever earn insurance has been made mandatory.Now in the case of the OP the car wasn't de-registered so the car will require an insurance. It doesn't matter what the intend was/is.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 10:57:57 am
content: Yes, I heard that even if a car is SORN (Statutory Off Road Notice in the UK) that it has to still be insured.If I am leaving a vehicle like that I always remove the battery though, so if they want to reconnect a battery and steal it then they can carry on!Eejits!

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 11:26:06 am
content: Quote from: Wilksey on October 31, 2018, 10:57:57 amNot true.https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-insurance/uninsured-vehicles" You do not need to insure your vehicle if it is kept off the road and declared as off the road ( SORN )."However, the lady in question had seemly not declared it off the road (i.e. potentially on the road).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 12:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on October 31, 2018, 11:26:06 amIn the Netherlands we have similar rules but when a vehicle is de-registered it may not be parked on a publically accessible road which includes your own drive way (for example).

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 12:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on October 31, 2018, 10:30:14 am1)there are funds for victims of accidents where the offending party didn't have insurance. I don't remember why but it's them who had initiated the lawsuit. I remember i thought they had a valid reason2)What do you mean?3) Anything that is going to be on public street has to be insured. Some say bycicles, too.If it was up to me, insurance should be tied to the driver and not the veichle.For example, i got my first car this june. It doesn't matter that i've had a license and have been driving since 2009, i still had to start with the lowest class. In the past i had a couple of minor accidents and they were reflected on my dad's insurance because the car was registrated under his name.Another example, you can pay a way lower premium if you are the only driver allowed to use the car. This is a problem for mechanics when they have to try vehichles on the road. And they can't use test plates anymore, because new legislation allow them to be used only on unregistered cars.IF you needed an insurance to go around with a bike, a personal insurance would have even more sense

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 12:38:49 pm
content: Here in Florida, if the vehicle has a tag and is registered, you must have insurance. If you cancel the insurance, you must turn in the tag. When the insurance is cancelled, the insurance company is required to send a notice to the Division of Motor Vehicles so if you don't turn in the tag and receive a proper receipt for said tag, the DMV will suspend your license. I am sure all the other states have similar if not the same laws. I remember years ago as a Boy Scout Leader in New Jersey, the scout camp had a camp vehicle, an old Toyota truck that had no plate nor was it insured. However, it was in such bad shape, it would never have passed state inspection or be road worthy. It was perfect as a camp truck.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 01:03:03 pm
content: Just needed whatever the local variant of a SORN, it's another bullshit anti EU story.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 01:25:03 pm
content: A related issue, which many people are still unaware of, is that your potential liability for a vehicle does NOT end when you sell it.Have a readhere; it's a story from a guy who sold his motorbike, but the buyer was uninsured and was involved in an accident.The way the law works in the UK, is that theoriginal owner's insurer is obliged to pay out, if the new owner doesn't have insurance. They in turn come after the original owner personally to recover their losses, on the grounds that the driver wasn't someone named on the policy.The moral of the story is, just as you should take out insurance immediately before buying a vehicle, you should also be sure to cancel itimmediatelywhen you sell.If your insurance has been cancelled, then your insurer isn't obliged to pay out if the new owner crashes it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 02:22:39 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 31, 2018, 01:25:03 pmFor a private sale, in California, we have to send in a yellow form (Release of Liability) which has all the details of the sale - buyer, seller, mileage, amount, etc. At that point, we have no further liability for the vehicle.However, there is a period of time when things are pretty loose. The Release of Liability is effective when DMV has posted it. If you drop it in the mail, it may be a good long time before it is posted. In any event, you don't even have to send it in for 5 days and the buyer has 10 days to re-register the vehicle.As to "off road", we have the "Certificate of Non-Operation" which can be filed with DMV. Even that is a bit squirrelly. The buyer of such a vehicle can't drive it off until it has been registered. It also makes it impossible for the seller to get a current Smog Certificate which is required to sell the car. The smog certificate deal is a real complication. You would have to re-register the vehicle (which costs money) then get the smog certificate and finally, sell the vehicle and send in the Release of Liability. The new owner would re-register the vehicle and DMV will have effectively gotten 2 fees in a short period of time. Having not been trapped in this deal, I don't know if re-registering a non-op vehicle requires a smog certificate. If it does, there is no legal way to drive to the test station to get one. Hence, no way to re-register...

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 03:27:39 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 31, 2018, 02:22:39 pmIs there no temporary registration option? That's how my state does it, specifically to allow you to get a car to the required inspections to get a permanent registration (MD requires a comprehensive mechanical inspection before a car can be registered).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 03:37:36 pm
content: As far as i know a SORNed vehicle in the UK does not require insurance. In this case the vehicle was stolen so i do not see the problem.

author: GeoffreyF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 03:39:37 pm
content: What you miss is that if a vehicle has license plates on it - then it is only technically "off the road". This has to do with whether the vehicle has valid license plates or not.It has nothing at all to do with electronics.

author: Gromitt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 03:46:40 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffreyF on October 31, 2018, 03:39:37 pmIt dosn't work that way in Europe. The car can have valid licence plates and still be "off the road".

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 03:56:30 pm
content: I did wonder the validity of the rumour as I have had cars SORN and uninsured in the past without any issues, I presumed it was a new rule, but perhaps the person that told me was misinformed.I wasn't aware that you are liable insurance wise if the new owner crashes, i'd presumed that as long as you get a signed statement saying what time and day you sold the car anything there after was the new owners responsibility.Typically if I sell a car it is uninsured for a day or two as i've swapped insurance over to a new vehicle, or I PX it and the dealer takes responsibility of it.Does that ring true also if the dealer drives it without trade plates?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 04:55:48 pm
content: I think this was more or less already the case in a lot of countries before this EU decision, but...Of course, it was not as plain a requirement as this, and more based on common sense, something the EU technocrats seem to be lacking of.The key was usually that you needed an insurance for any vehicle that could cause any damage to a third-party even if just stored and never on road. Seems to make sense. For instance, a vehicle permanently parked in a shared building parking lot. Let's suppose it catches on fire and makes damages around it, you'd be considered responsible and would have better have an insurance for the vehicle to cover the damages, otherwise you could be in deep trouble (could even be an issue if someone accidentally hits your parked car and gets injured). Now if you were just parking your unused vehicle in your private property with no possibility of any third-party damage, you could of course not have any insurance. In case of any damage, your house insurance would usually cover it in that case, the vehicle being then considered as any other equipment you own.Requiring an insurance in ANY case is of course avoiding ANY potential issue without the need of considering particular cases. This is exactly what a technocracy is all about.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 05:25:18 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 31, 2018, 02:22:39 pmWell, there are tow trucks, so it's certainly possible to fully legally get to a smog station.Realistically/practically, I'd just print up a dated later stating what I was doing, sign it, and carry that with me. If a cop both catches meandwants to violate me for it, so be it... I've done far sketchier things with cars...

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 05:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: Gromitt on October 31, 2018, 03:46:40 pmthat depends, here you don't get the plates until you show that you have insurance and you have to insurance (and tax) until you return the plates, you you don't pay and/or don't show up for the biannual inspection the plates will be confiscated by police, until the plates are off the car the insurance will haveto pay. if you sell a car the buyer has 20 days to transfer the registration to a new insurance

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 06:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on October 31, 2018, 03:56:30 pmYou are probably not misinformed. In the OP's case the car was not 'SORned' but just not insured. I wonder how that is possible. In the Netherlands you'd get a very hefty fine automatically.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 06:18:33 pm
content: Well, here in the UK you can tax a car and someone else can drive it on their insurance or insure it themselves, so the owner - or registered keeper - does not necessarily get fined automatically for not having insurance unless they are caught driving without.You can let the MOT expire, the only time I believe you get fined automatically is if you either don't tax the car or SORN it, but that is the registered keepers' responsibility, same as speed fines etc, it's up to the keeper to inform the 5-0 or DVLA who was driving at the time of the offence.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 06:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 31, 2018, 10:43:29 amSeems that even intelligent people that have mastered a difficult technical discipline requiring a logical thought process seem to be unable to avoid the trap of blaming EU for rules that are the same (or worse) in most other jurisdictions.It is of course especially amusing when our British friends have a go at EU rules, considering that they are bound by their very own 1872 Licensing Act which states: "It is Illegal to be drunk in the pub."! The legislation adds: "Every person found drunk… on any licensed premises, shall be liable to a penalty". Visits to London would be a lot less interesting if anyone took any notice, certainly none of my English friends seem to be aware of it!

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 06:39:48 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 31, 2018, 10:43:29 amSeeing that this is an area that is NOT regulated by the EU (an insurance when on the road is mandatory, of course), but by the individual member states, each having their own rules, your statement from across the pond is in the realm of "Trump truths".'nuff said.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 07:19:42 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on October 31, 2018, 06:39:48 pmIt is a ruling by Court of Justice of the EU?http://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?language=en&td=ALL&num=C-80/17The directives are quoted above.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 08:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on October 31, 2018, 07:19:42 pmKeep in mind that any EU car/driver has the right to drive in any EU country with no problems - this requires some ground rules that member nations are free to implement in the best way for them.The common rules (directives) say that (1) every member nation has to make sure every car and driver is insured, and (2) they must set up a fund that covers the damage/medical costs where the driver has no insurance. This way, every European can be confident that everone driving on European roads are covered in case of an accident. Only an idiot would be against these two agreed principles, but there are of course plenty of ISO-9000 certified idiots to go around...Moving on to the specific case: A Portuguese lady owns a car (registered and with plates) but did not have insurance, claiming essentially "Nobody was using it, honest" - until her kid, sadly, crashed it and killed several people. As a result, the Portuguese "fund of last resort" had to cough up for the costs, in accordance with Portuguese law and agreements with the other European countries.Later on, this fund then went after the lady for the money, saying she should have had insurance since she had not handed in the plates. They won the case in the first court, then they lost the case in the Portuguese appeal court, which held that the lady was not driving at the time of the accident and therefore was not liable.The fund disagreed and appealed to the Portuguese Supreme Court which found that the question just boils down to this: Does the mere fact of owning a registered car (rather than actually using it) make insurance mandatory? The SC escalated this question to the ECJ and the ruling (which included input from a British legal team) concluded that Yes, that's what we had all agreed - if you own a registered car, you have to have it insured. It looks like Portugal did not have super clear or well known rules on this issue (until now).Nothing here looks unreasonable, in all honesty.It is a tragic story for the family concerned. Let's not use it as a lazy, low intelligence anti-EU argument.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 08:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on October 31, 2018, 06:39:48 pmApparently you missed (or ignored?) the original post that said....QuotePerhaps you could justify the EU "ROHS" circus?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 08:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on October 31, 2018, 05:25:18 pmIn the UK you are permitted to drive your car via the shortest practical route to the MOT station (equivalent to your smog/inspection) and also via the shortest practical route to a mechanic for repairs. The catch is that it must be pre-booked and generally speaking, you need to go to the nearest station for each even if it's not your preference. You are also allowed to drive to a post office to tax your car if it is untaxed. In all cases you must have a valid insurance policy.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2018, 09:52:52 pm
content: That's a very sad story...In NSW, Australia, you can't register your car without first having third party personal injury insurance (a green slip) - it's done automatically nowdays - without an insurer sending data confirming purchase of a greenslip to the RMS department, they will not register your car.And it's a good thing, too... Because otherwise you'd have uninsured idiots driving about, messing up other people's lives and leaving their victims without any compensation... (Yeah it can happen with unregistered cars, but unregistered cars are also easier to pull off the road at a traffic stop, and unregistered drivers get hit with a heavy stick) You want the freedom of driving about? Then deal with the responsibility it entails.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 10:39:14 am
content: Thank you to all, been some interesting replies.In the UK there is no restriction in owning any vehicle. SORN (statutory off road notice) tells the vehicle agency that whilst you own the vehicle, it is not going to be driven on any public highway, and this includes footpaths and bridleways. SORN only arrived about 25 or so years ago, so if your vehicle has not been taxed in that period then you don't need to SORN it.There is a large and thriving do up car bunch of enthusiasts in the UK, see Practical Classics. So until you finally finish it and get it MoTed then it could be stolen and driven. Whilst you would insure it, does that include third parties? Don't know.This judgement also applies to people, like me, with a wood and an old vehicle to get around. It is SORNed, but not insured. There is no requirement for it to be insured but it could still be stolen. What if it is an old JCB, takes an unauthorised trip to the closest cash point and digs it up? Who pays? If it is simply a method of making sure that whatever happens, someone can pay for the damage and injuries then why not say so? Wouldn't it be easier for every person to carry third party liability for this occurance?Of course, none of this actually does anything for someone who is determined to break any law they can, every one else has to carry the can. Just go onto the DVLA website if sitting waiting in a traffic jam or car park and query the vehicles you see if they are registered or MoTed, might just surprise you.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2018, 11:56:28 am
content: It is, as far as I understand the law, this simple:SORN it if it's off road, insure it if it's not SORNed.If it has a SORN then there is no requirement to insure it as it will not be driven on the road.If it is stolen while there is a current SORN and crashed by the thief it is not your responsibility (the police may ask some awkward questions if they think there's evidence that you have either driven it or allowed it to be driven though).If you do not have a valid SORN in place then it can be driven on the road and should have insurance.

author: mac.6
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 09:49:30 am
content: Nothing new, France requires all motorized vehicule (all, only exception is child toys and eletric bikes) which have have a mean of transporting people and a steering to be insured (initial high court decision was for a lawn mower fatality). EU is enforcing this in all countries now.What is mean is that if you have no specific insurance for your vehicule, you bear full responsability related to it, ie if there is an accident/incident with it, be on your property or not.Yes there is a insurance fund for road victims, but it's for victims, not for owners. They will sue you (and win) if you are not insured. In the end someones is going to pay, better be an insurance than you.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 02:12:54 pm
content: As a kit car owner in the UK who uses a SORN for the winter 6 months I found the actual insurance cost for 6 months in the Summer was almost identical to that for the full year insurance so it stays insured. However for longer periods of off road the SORN should cover one OK in the UK providing no-one steals it. While building my kit I always had it covered by insurance just in case garage fire, theft etc. My annual insurance is < £200 a year.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 02:38:00 pm
content: In the U.K. this is pretty straightforward. A few years ago I sold a car and the new owner crashed it on the way home. At no point was I liable. He was uninsured and the vehicle was not taxed at the time. Once the paperwork is signed (take a date AND a time with the signature of the new owner) then your liability ends. Phone your insurer and get the vehicle taken off your insurance the moment you sell it as well.If your vehicle is stolen, insured or not, SORN or not, the policy is void anyway as it’s always for named drivers in private ownership. The liability rests with the driver at the time if it’s stolen. If the owner gave permission knowing the driver was uninsured and the vehicle untaxed things are different.Tax goes with vehicle ownership here now as well.