EEVblog #480 - 300MHz Owon SDS Oscilloscope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2013, 10:30:06 pm
content: Dave takes a look at the Owon SDS Series "Smart" oscilloscope.The 300MHz model SDS9302. But apart from bandwidth and sample rate, the same as the SDS8302, SDS8202, SDS8102, SDS7102, and SDS6062.

author: LaurenceW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2013, 11:23:33 pm
content: Come on, Dave, get off the fence.Did you like it, or not?(Sorry, i dozed off)

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2013, 11:39:09 pm
content: When Dave touches the LCD, it's colors change, so there isno protection glass in front of the LCD!And see this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 12:10:34 am
content: Frozen.http://youtu.be/RmJ2pZloW18?t=35m6sWell, the Owon SDS series was introduced in October 2010. This particular SDS9302 was introduced in 2012-06-06.http://www.owon.com.hk/Newshow-en.asp?id=79&BigClass=Company%20NewsWell, Owon scopes are for those people who want a cheap scope with large bandwidth but nothing else...

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 12:23:11 am
content: Thanks, Dave.You might have been having a problem with the Alternate trigger level on CH2 because you were essentially creating a loop with the Trigger Out. It did make me stop and wonder what logic they use to determine which trigger (CH1 or CH2) is driving the Trigger Out when in Alternate mode.BTW, you don't actually have to use the alternate trigger for the update rate - just running the Trigger Out back into Channel 2 and using the counter is enough. You can do that on the Rigol as well (although, of course, you'll get the waveform update rate of both channels running).

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 12:28:17 am
content: And yes, thank you for the review. Whoever wants a cheap scope, buy rather Siglent, Rigol or maybe Unitrend...

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 12:33:29 am
content: More Chinese scope fail.... as if the world doesn't have enough. My Tek CRTs look better and better each day.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 01:18:49 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 09, 2013, 12:10:34 amNo, the SDS series first started being sold in the West in July 2011. The one I had in August 2011 was gotten via a group buy organized by an equipment shop direct from the Owon factory.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 01:41:31 am
content: QuoteMaybe for China market.http://www.owon.com.hk/aboutus-en.asp?id=44Quote

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 02:23:35 am
content: The timebase knob is marked with siemens and nanosiemens.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 02:41:35 am
content: Wow. Dave, you need to put that back in its box right now - I can smell this turd from all the way out in New York. It's really stinking up my living room.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 03:09:46 am
content: What's that"None is saved"message?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 03:13:18 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 09, 2013, 03:09:46 amIt's a message from Owon, actually. They've kept all the good oscilloscopes to themselves and saved none for you.

author: Eonir
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:35:58 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 09, 2013, 03:09:46 amI think it means "All are Doomed".

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:24:33 am
content: Why don't these companies bother to have someone who actually knows English help them with the text? It's one thing to have Chinglish in a user manual, but on the outside of the box? It would cost them so little to pay some high-school English major (English speaking native) from any University on e-lance to get it right... but they let Ding Dong who works in the packing room and claims to know English do it instead.Releasing a product to the world is a *big deal*. Skipping out on the part of that project that everyone will see first is like getting dressed for your wedding and wearing only your underwear down the aisle because you couldn't be bothered to put your pants/trousers on.The first thing it says to me is "if they don't even give a shit about getting one of the most visible things right, why would I think they'll spend any time on the important stuff inside that I'll never see?".

author: quarros
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:34:50 am
content: Dave. The link to the forum, in the blog post is not working. You misstyped something

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:05:46 am
content: I see one odd thing.This individual scope was made one year ago.(how did you find this old unit? I understand if you have made this video nearly one year ago but... )First I regognize it from back feets. There was no rubber pieces installed at all.Then I look more carefully and it looks like manufacture lot have been 122? (year week)Perhaps old FW? (I can see some bugs in video)In zoom mode it also increase samplerate. Many oscilloscopes with windowed zoom do not use higher samplearate in the zoomed area in window mode.In test with glitches. It looks like (but too small amount of time in viedo so it is now only "feel") it sometimes trig to glitch more fast than if think update rate is always around 35 or less per second with long real visible blind time. (also this is proofed in tests using "marmad's double pulse method")There is not any kind of tests for front end noise levels, no frequancy response test, no rising time test, no measurements accuracy tests, not trigger jitter tests, no FFT mode dynamic range tests. Total lack of any kind of lab tests for signal capturing quality. Only some waveform update rate test but also no any comment why it show this glitch more frequently that if it is really always under 35wfrm/s or less. Perhaps secret is in table what is published after tests with marmad method.But, as all know it is not made at all by DPO principle. It IS pure DSO. (ref. Tektronix XYZ)This is not for glitch hunting.Time when this scope have made there was not example Rigol DS2000 series afaik.So, comparing to much more new designed scopes is not apples to apples.About vertical fine adjust. Most economy level digital scopes do not have real fine adjust. Just only "pixel zoom" what do not give anything more than magnifier class over TFT. Example measurement accuracy/resolution do not grow. If voltage fine adjust is done in analog front before ADC, it may give real advantage.And nearly same for horizontal fine adjust. What advantage it give as long as it is just only same sample points positioned differently on the TFT. Just nothing more. In analog oscilloscopes these fine adjustmets are really different. In most digital scopes they are just cosmetics.Why there is nearly total lack of any real lab tests(and not only in this video, in nearly all videos, nearly total lack of any real lab tests with real data. I can see reason is not lack of good test equipments. So, why do not use these?)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:34:18 am
content: QuoteHorizontal fine adjust can be very useful, e.g. to align the graticule marks with bit-cell positions when looking at async serial data.I could probably live without vertical fine adjust, but lack of horizontal fine adjust on a scope in this price range is unacceptable.

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 10:53:40 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on June 09, 2013, 09:05:46 amA real comparative lab test would take a lot of planning beforehand, and an enormous amount of time altogether. Although from a technical point of view a comparative test might be more fair, the technical aspects of equipment are only one aspect of what makes a good instrument. Look and feel is one for example, and ease of use is another. Not all aspects have equal weight in what makes an instrument good, but they all contribute in one way or another.In this case it's very easy to get a negative feeling towards this scope, if only from ease of use or lacking thereof. The glitches and other stuff Dave mention contribute to a feeling of just bad design. If this first impression is already this bad, why would anyone spend time delving into the specific technical aspects. It just doesn't give an impression that it could be any good, even if it were.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 12:12:14 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on June 09, 2013, 09:05:46 amJust a couple of thoughts on the waveform update rate stuff:@Rf-loop - I think we have to assume, unless definitive proof turns up otherwise, that the Trigger Out of the Owon is the realcontinuouswaveform update speed of the DSO.OTOH, an observational glitch test is a very simple method to get a very broad idea about waveform update rates. As mentioned in other threads, it can only tell you how slow a DSOisn't- not how fast it trulyis(because of probabilities). Since waveform update rates are not precise frequencies (e.g. it may be 53.355 wfrm/s), it can happen coincidentally that the update rate lands sporadically on a multiple of the glitch frequency (if it's repetitive).The update rates of the Rigol DS1052E have recently been measured and postedhereandhereby EEVBlog member Harvs.So, the waveform update rate of the DS1052E @ 10ns/div (which Dave was using) is apparently 60.7 wfrm/s - and the update rate of the DS2202 (AUTO/10ns) was 9,400 wfrm/s.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 01:32:21 pm
content: Just watched this review.Ick.That thing is just ... awful. I just don't understand why a manufacturer wouldn't bring in a consultant, let's say it was Dave for example, that would put it through it's paces before releasing it. Why get such a bloody nose for no reason?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 02:09:25 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on June 09, 2013, 09:05:46 amIs this the case of my DSOX2002A??I really don't know, it's hard to find any info on that.Well, probably not. See the parts of my user manual.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 02:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on June 09, 2013, 09:05:46 amNo problem. My DSOX2002A was manufactured in 6/2012 and i bought it asnewscope from Farnell in 4/2013.Anyway, here are photos of Dave's Owon. The serial number isSDS93021229286.

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 03:26:40 pm
content: Nice review, definitely enlightening... will look elsewhere for my first scope. How about a review of a same category Siglent? They have to be better than the Owon and Rigol entries?

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 04:19:54 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 09, 2013, 07:24:33 amAt least we know they are honest because ... they DIDNT 'spend any time on the important stuff inside'Quote from: rf-loop on June 09, 2013, 09:05:46 amBecause there is no point wasting time testing a piece of shit like that scope. Fricking UI LAGS more than 500 milliseconds and eats into update rate. It reminded me of GEOS on C-64.

author: sagdahl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 05:07:07 pm
content: Hello, McFly!!!I bought the 100MHz Owon for $330 with battery and a bag.Where can you get a portable scope with 8" screen and vga, LAN, USB.Light and small!The Rigol DS1052E is not useable due to the increadable high fan-noise.Sometimes the alternative to the cheap scopes is not an expensive Agilent, butrather no scope at all.If a miss-spelling is a big problem for you guys, then I rest my case./Roger

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 05:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 05:07:07 pmWhy? Are you a spy who needs an oscilloscope to use while sneaking onto enemy territory? Has your wife warned you she'll leave if she catches you with one more bit of test equipment - and your lab is in the bedroom? Personally, I can't hear the fan over the voices in my head anyway...

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 05:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 09, 2013, 05:12:30 pmMaybe it doesn't matter to you, maybe you work in a boiler factory or something, but this is a problem for lots of people. I got fed up with the fan noise about 10 minutes after I first turned on my DS1102. I replaced the fan with a quieter one and it's much easier to use.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 05:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 05:07:07 pmWell,battery, VGA and LANhas nothing to do with actual performance of the scope... I will never miss this on my DSOX2002A. What I miss is a longer memory. I will buy the DSOX2MEMUP upgrade in future, when I get some money.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 05:46:56 pm
content: Actually, you're right. I work at Owon wherethisscope was designed, and I can't hear my Rigol over the sound of all the engineers hitting their heads on their desks to get warmed up. Then they start their hourly ritual crying, and dear lord I can't hearanythingover that.Seriously, though, is there some variation in fan loudness in the DS1000 series that I don't know about? Mine's quite quiet. I wish I had a way to measure it, but it's really one of the quieter cooling fans out there.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 05:55:59 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 09, 2013, 05:46:56 pmOnce the ears tell you its quite, especially your own, then it is quite enough, no further proofing needed.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 09, 2013, 05:46:56 pmFrom all that I've read on the subject, it seems as if theremighthave been a variation in fan models used at different times by Rigol in the DS1000 series - although it might just be people's subjective reaction to different pitches plus the environment in which the DSO is used. I found the Rigol DS1000's fan to be annoying - although it's quite possible the DS2000's fan is just as loud - it just happens to be a much lower pitch which doesn't bother me.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:16:25 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 05:07:07 pmReplacing a fan is not exactly difficult, and nowhere near as annoying as putting up with a poor user interface for years....

author: sagdahl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:25:02 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 09, 2013, 05:46:41 pmSeriously, don´t compare a $300 scope to a $1300 one!My Agilent MSOX2014 at work is of course better then my Owon at home. BTW, a vga, LAN interface module to my Agilent would cost more then a complete Owon 100MHz.Tried a lissajous at 50Hz, will not work with my Rigol, but is fairly ok with the Owon. The old analog 20 MHz will of course beat them all.

author: sagdahl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 09, 2013, 06:16:25 pmI won´t defend the Owon for shortcomings, but you often get what you pay for. I would recommend the Owon to beginnersif the alternative is none at all. Tektronix, Agilent will of course be a better choice if you want to pay 3-4 times more.Rebuilding a new oscilloscope to be able to think in the same room must be considered a defeat!But maybe I will try to open it instead of putting it in the recycle bin.Anyone have suggestions of replacement?And c4757p....some of us needs silence when we are working with complex electronic circuits.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:39:43 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 06:36:19 pmSo you can hear the transistors whisper to you?

author: sagdahl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:40:53 pm
content: It would be interesting to see if Dave could take a look at Siglent and GW Insteak also, althoughthe advertisement on the blogI believe in Daves integrity, but it could be fun

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:42:49 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 06:40:53 pmI thought Dave's #474 and #475 videoswerelooks at the GW-Instek?

author: sagdahl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:44:28 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 09, 2013, 06:39:43 pmBelieve it or not but my brain is a very delicate thing. Living in silent Sweden maybe has spoiled me rutten.

author: sagdahl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:46:53 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on June 09, 2013, 06:42:49 pmHave I missed a couple of Daves blogs? Bummer!My apologees to my idol

author: Arp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 06:51:08 pm
content: Agreed. Sweden can be pretty silent. DS1052E fan used to bother me. I even purchased a replacement, but it was louder. DS2072 bothers me less

author: sagdahl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: Arp on June 09, 2013, 06:51:08 pmThen you should hear the Owons fan, if possible. It´s really quiet.And, no I am not selling or in any other way have income from Owon.I just like the performance/price ratio.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:07:01 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 07:03:03 pm"You guys! Look at this! If I cut out half the performance so it has jack to process, we can make the fan nice and quiet..."

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 06:36:19 pmI would rather recommend Siglent or Rigol, maybe GW Instek GDS-1000 series... Owon is maybe the slowest scope ever..

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:15:16 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 09, 2013, 07:11:08 pmI'm more baffled by the basic software bugs. Those artifacts while persistence is enabled? Yeah, I wouldn't trust anything on that screen to be correct after seeing those. How does it make it out the door like that? Does Owon's product testing consist of "Hey, I turned it on - can you smell anything?" Piece of crap...

author: sagdahl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 07:27:49 pm
content: Ok.Owon is defeated by the numbers of negative comments.My personal experience is only limited to Tektronix, Agilent, Rigol and Owon.I presume that I have to considered myself defeated by my adversaries peronal experience thatcovers all the low cost scopes.You guys that know everything, if I want a scope for around $300 with vga and USB, prefearably withbattery-support.Which should I buy?Thanx in advance for your guidance!

author: EV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 08:16:25 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 07:27:49 pmI don't know everything, but maybe you can buy an old used Tek 3000 with Vga and battery, if you are lucky. USB you must change to diskette drive station. Maybe the battery does't also work anymore. There is also less memory.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 08:33:43 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 07:27:49 pmYou should buy 5 old hp, repair them, and next when you've the money buy a rigol or agilent

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 08:45:00 pm
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 07:27:49 pmAt some company they use a battery powered Owon for simple measurements on high potentials. They don't want to get an expensive scope damaged.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 08:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: EV on June 09, 2013, 08:16:25 pmTDS3000 scopes are still bloody expensive.Ebay

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 09, 2013, 08:45:00 pmWell this is just plain stupid. The Owon scope is not double-insulated nor does it have isolated inputs. It's rated at 30Vrms maximum - and even the Owon Manual states:"When powered by battery, the product must have a ground connection. To avoid electric shock, there must be a ground wire connection between ground and the ground port (on the back of product panel)."Using this DSO on high potentials is an accident waiting to happen.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:12:11 pm
content: I don't work at the company, I don't know the details.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:12:51 pm
content: Fine as long as you don't touch any metal.....Probably doesn't have the issue I encountered many years ago with my first scope :I thought floating the chassis of an old Telequipment rackmount scope was a good idea when troubleshooting an old live-chassis TV.I discovered the hard way that although the knobs were plastic, they had metal grubscrews....

author: EV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 09, 2013, 08:47:36 pmYes not from eBay, you must be lucky as I told. I was, but battery is not working.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 09, 2013, 09:12:51 pmwelcome in club :\

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 09, 2013, 09:12:51 pmFrom a Tek document on the subject - first specifically about it's TDS3000 battery-operated DSOs which are NOT double-insulated (the same applies to the Owon):'While in battery operation and following environmental specification limits for the TDS3000 Series, it is safe to “float” the “signal common” for making measurements provided you do not connect a signal greater than 30 VRMS (>42 Vpk) from earth ground to either the probe tip or common lead.'Secondly, about the practice of floating oscilloscopes in general:'“Floating” a ground referenced oscilloscope is the technique of defeating the oscilloscope’s protective grounding system – disconnecting “signal common” from earth, either by defeating the grounding system or using an isolation transformer. This allows accessible parts of the instrument such as chassis, cabinet, and connectors to assume the potential of the probe ground lead connection point. This is dangerous, not only from the standpoint of elevated voltages present on the oscilloscope (a shock hazard to the operator), but also due to cumulative stresses on the oscilloscope’s power transformer insulation. This stress may not cause immediate failure, but may lead to future dangerous failures (a shock and fire hazard), even after returning the oscilloscope to properly grounded operation! Not only is floating a ground-referenced oscilloscope dangerous, but the measurements are often inaccurate. This results from the total capacitance of the oscilloscope chassis being directly connected to the circuit under test at the point where the common lead is connected. At higher frequencies, severing the ground may not even break the ground loop as the line-powered instrument exhibits a large parasitic capacitance when floated above earth ground.' Etc.

author: adnewhouse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2013, 09:48:56 pm
content: I encountered the same problems saving to a USB drive. Updating the firmware fixed the issue for me. I agree with most of this review. The update times really do suck. The only consolation is that in a few years when I buy a "real" scope this one can be used as a portable battery powered one.

author: AlphZeta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 01:48:06 am
content: Is it just me or anyone else had noticed, the waveform look significantly different on this scope than the same waveform on either a Rigol 2000 or the older DS1052E? (I am talking about the waveform generated from the LeCroy demo board). It could be because of the higher bandwidth but not sure.Also, it would be great if Dave could feed in a 300MHz signal to see whether the scope can indeed handle that bandwidth (or using a avalanche pulse generator to see how fast the signal rises).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 02:00:09 am
content: Quote from: sagdahl on June 09, 2013, 06:40:53 pmTrio smart cal have tons of siglents, so can easily get one. The GW needs another video, it has more to offer I think.Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 02:01:32 am
content: Quote from: AlphZeta on June 10, 2013, 01:48:06 amThe Owen isn't worthy of any more air time!Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 02:45:38 am
content: I have found the worst scope ever and it's not Owon.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/welec-w2000a-another-weird-oscilloscope/msg244383/#msg244383

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 06:32:02 am
content: I think I have said it once before, but man I wish Dave could review this welec, only for the rants, McFlys, and all othersI had this scope, impressive specs for the time and still good these days, like full 1 Gs/s for each channel, vga size screen, Agilent like looks, open source fw with at least one excellent implementation by Blueflash.It had 4x 250 Ms/s Maxxim adcs per channel, and one Cyclone 2 fpga with Nios 2 softcore running the whole thing, including the display.IMO the worst thing was the frontend, very noisy on some ranges, and clunky UI which felt nimble as a freight train.Interesting thing was that they sold 100 and 200 MHz version, but they were 100% identical !??! No passive bw limiting, no VGA, frequency response wavy enough to get sea sickness. On the great mysteries remained how did they choose which one is 100 and which one is 200 MHz.Than noisy frontend caused it to trigger on noise alone, that irritated the hell out of me, specially since it was my first dso. I replaced it with SDS7102 and it felt like someone now going from Owon to AgilentThat is why I replied to Dave on twitter, when he called Owon the worst scope ever, "you obviously haven't had a chance to use welec"

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 02:53:04 pm
content: The Welec scope had even bloody slow waveform update rate.QuoteOn the other hand, in 2007 you probably could not buy a decent chinese scope in Europe. Like Rigol or Siglent.

author: ben-s
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 05:39:23 pm
content: I have an SDS7102, the 100MHz version of this, which I've owned for about a year.I absolutely agree that yes, it does have some really stupid bugs and the UI isn't great, however it's not complete junk for certain applications.Some features are unusable or less than useful; the copy button doesn't work very well, usually defaulting to wave rather than image mode, and the PC software is frankly useless. The persistence is not robustly written and the cursors are not very well implemented (based in the frame buffer, as far as I can tell, so they don't stick to the wave if you pan or change the timebase), but for what it is, I believe the 100MHz version represents reasonably good value for money.When I bought it, I required a cheap scope with good memory depth and a decent screen, and at the time the memory depth on the Owon blew everything in the low end scope market, including the Agilent 2/3000x series, out of the water. (I never understood Agilent fitting the otherwise excellent 3000x with only 2 or 4 MB).The other Chinese scopes are at best a couple of meg, often shared between channels, whereas the Owon has 10MB per channel.This has of course been significantly beaten by the new Rigol 2000 series now, but that option didn't exist at the time..The battery is also a very useful addition (it lasts about 3-4 hours)Successive firmware updates have improved some of the glitchiness, albeit nothing like all of it.If you go into buying or using one of these expecting an Agilent or higher end Rigol, you will without doubt be disappointed. If you go into it expecting a compromise to get good memory depth and a decent screen at a very low price, you will likely be reasonably satisfied.I deal with a lot of one-shot events containing a lot of detail, which many higher end scopes struggle with due to their limited memory.Try tracing a short cap discharge followed by a several-second recharge cycle on a scope with limited memory, and you'll soon be tearing your hair out when you want to zoom in on the detail of the short discharge event.If I was buying again, I'd probably spend the extra money and get the Rigol 2000 series; but (and I'll no doubt get some odd looks for this) I don't regret buying the Owon.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2013, 11:36:50 pm
content: I must admit I was hoping to save money to get a Rigol 2000 series and I tried, but expenses were just prohibited. So I purchase the Owon from a couple of mediocre reviews that were not very convincing. It arrived the next after this review and I was SHITTING myself with anticipation. It may be the reason why I was such a terd recently.So far I have not found a lot of the more severe bugs displayed and mentioned in the threads so far, noise is a problem when the probes are connected, I assuming this is from the lack a shielding but the other bugs do not appear. I had to buy something until I can afford a real decent scope.It is possible Dave was given a dud either deliberately or accidentally. One thing I noticed is the menu auto off default is 25 seconds, so someone had played around with the scope before Dave got it.I am now not convinced of the review, there are a lot of personal views as well. I also found the scope extremely intuitive as I managed to work out nearly all menu functions without the need of the manual, and I still haven't read it.I will still not apologise for my assessment of a review I recently talked about as it was a one of the reviews that I decided to purchase it. He gave a glowing review compared to other scope of the same cost.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 12:42:23 am
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on June 10, 2013, 11:36:50 pmMan, you are all over the map. First, you wrote that Dave's review proved my review was "crap" (even though we both mention many of the same problems) - and you also wrote that my review was "totally unconvincing", I guess because it apparently convinced you to buy the DSO. Now you're "not convinced" about Dave's review - and even though you appear to be happy with the DSO - your assessment of my review as crap hasn't changed. I'm sorry, but I can't even follow your logic.BTW, I don't understand some people's ideas about what a review is. The word 'review' comes from Middle French: 'to see again' - and it's a subjective process - not objective. Of course there are personal views present - that's what it is: one person's views on a particular device, movie, book, etc. Dave's ideas (or mine) about what is ergonomic - or what constitutes good interface design - is personal, and may or may not correspond with yours. That's where it becomes your responsibility to judge the supplied information and opinions and decide whether they correlate with your own experiences and opinions.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 12:47:28 am
content: Marmad's review was OK. He showed many features of the scope.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 02:23:20 am
content: Maybe it is my upbringing, if I was to comment in my old ways I would most probably offended more than just you and your supporters. I grew as a hard case and maybe that is just what I am. Your speaking voice is unconvincing and all over the place, but unfortunately so are many other engineers which I assume you are. I consider Dave as one of the exceptions and talks very much on a worker level as I used to be. I am allowed to have an opinion and that is how I am no holes barred. Straight out no bullshit, it is also my family life learning sign language is also a no holes barred language (eg: either fat or not! not this bullshit political correctness). If I don't like the way you talk then that is how I am. I don't create videos myself purely because I would have to be more restrained that Dave is now.I have seen a couple of your reviews so out of the ones you provided the OWON was the best of the cheaper models. Mind you it was Daves assessment that worried me and may still do. I have only had a couple of days to play with it plus no real option to return it either, but at the moment trying to prepare for 2nd Year electrical exams next week so I don't have a lot of time to play with it more comprehensively.Quote from: marmad on June 11, 2013, 12:42:23 am

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 03:31:49 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on June 09, 2013, 07:24:33 amPersonally, I've always appreciated this common fault with Chinese companies. I would rather them not spend my money on marketing drivel or even a manual that's a pleasure to read. I just need enough to understand what's intended to be communicated even if it requires a little effort on my part. To me it's not unlike technical jargon or listening to someone with a strong accent.Also, I'm sure when Bob in the Albuquerque office does his Finnish translations using Google they come out at least equally awful.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 03:51:08 am
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on June 11, 2013, 03:31:49 amExcept it goes beyond that. They avoid spending on native English speaker sure, but they also avoid UI experts (or anyone who has a slight idea how UI should work), usability experts, or even decent programmers. EVERY SINGLE Chinese gadget has shit for firmware. They are so clueless they even manage to make bugs in Flashlight (mode switching with one button) firmwares.Quote from: Paul Moir on June 11, 2013, 03:31:49 amAs far as I know Finnish is not Internationally spoken language of the world. Mandarin, Spanish and English are.

author: Yaksaredabomb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 04:10:28 am
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on June 11, 2013, 03:31:49 amThat's an interesting point! I'd never thought of it that way before. Is grammar on the box and in the manual really "value added"? Whatever the employee's time is spent on, the money to pay them is all coming from somewhere: the customer's pocket. Same thing with how businesses pay taxes, btw - with money from their customersAnyhow, a whole different perspective. And just because their grammar is poor, logically speaking that in and of itself proves nothing about whether their programming or circuit design skills are poor.I had sided with the "if they didn't get this obvious thing right, what assurance do I have they got the less obvious things right?" crowd - and I might still side with them. For instance, everyone learning how to put a resume together is told over and over again, no typos, no mistakes, it must be impeccable - even have other people proof read it if possible. The concern is that any error may be counted against you as a sign of poor attention to detail or something worse. Perhaps there is usually a valid reason to be concerned, too. Whether justified or not I'll admit I have judged things this way.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 05:02:03 am
content: Quote from: Yaksaredabomb on June 11, 2013, 04:10:28 amIs that really the only question? Isn't it also as much about respect, or the lack thereof, for their customers with a western culture background?When you, as someone from the west, want to do business with Chinese you are constantly told to always show respect for their culture, to always rub them the right way, never tell them they messed something up, etc. bla bla bla. E.g. with my employer we have to go through two seminars before we are supposed to deal with our Chinese suppliers (yes, suppliers, not customers), to avoid, heaven forbid, to make them the least inconvenient. In return however, they simply shit on us.We had that discussion about the constant stream of unsafe devices like wallwarts from China in the past. They just don't care if a few people in the west die. The grammar and spelling on the box is just an expression of giving a shit about their customers. Insofar it is an indication how the stuff looks inside. They don't want to get it right on the outside, and they don't want to get it right on the inside.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 06:20:33 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on June 11, 2013, 03:51:08 amI'm not sure I would call Mandarin an internationally spoken language. It's the language with the most native speakers, yes, but the vast majority of those are confined to a relatively small area of land, unlike English and Spanish (especially English) which are spoken all over the world, often as a second language. If you would drop me off randomly anywhere in the world, and I could only speak one language, I would choose English, as there's likelysomeonenearby who can speak it.

author: TRIO_Smartcal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 06:22:31 am
content: Anyone want a bargain?There's only one at this price and you've seen it in the review. We tested its bandwidth and it met spec.As others have said, if all you want is sample rate, bandwidth and 10M memory, then its not bad at all at the advertised price.http://www.triosmartcal.com.au/owon/2800-owon-sds9302-300mhz-2-channel-oscilloscope.html

author: Yaksaredabomb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 06:24:20 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on June 11, 2013, 05:02:03 amOk, an excellent point. I guess as a Christian and engineer, I'm either desensitized to cultural disrespect or oblivious to it due to. Sure, among some people and in some places I expect others to make a deliberate effort to be polite (and sure it would be nice if everyone did, everywhere, all the time). Personal attacks are almost universally unacceptable. But I've never been actuallyoffendedby Chinese products with poor English grammar on their box or in their manual. I don't know the first thing about their grammar or culture so I can hardly justify being offended when they don't get mine quite right. I can wonder why they didn't make more of an effort though, and wonder what that might mean about the product itself, and I can laugh at it.I don't deal with any Chinese suppliers or customers though and haven't been through the sensitivity/cultural training etc that seems to be required to do so. I have heard of the stereotype that they're very concerned about respect and "saving face", but when they release a box like this absurd Owon one to the world it can be hard to take that stereotype seriously. If it really does seem like a double standard then yes, I can understand getting frustrated and offended over such disrespect for Western customers.Of course on top of that it seems all many care about is profit and price. Consumers generally want the cheapest possible prices (myself included). Many will choose another product or vendor due to relatively small price differences, regardless of"green"or"ethical"concerns. At the same time, shareholders demand higher stock prices and executives demand massive compensation (whether it makes sense to compensate them so much is another issue). So in this fight between profits and price it's absolutely no surprise to me that unsafe devices are produced.That's where (hopefully) certifications and independent reviews etc can step in to filter out the worst of the unsafe products before they get to the customer. Even then, some will get past and some will have terrible consequences. That's just the world culture in 2013, or so it appears to me. That may be unacceptable and we can try to change it but I think that's how it will be until "the money" says differently. I don't take China's offenses personally.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 06:33:05 am
content: Quote from: Yaksaredabomb on June 11, 2013, 06:24:20 amIt's nice that there is another spiritual person here, I don't feel quite as surrounded.But back to topic, I look at it this way. I don't attempt to write things in Mandarin. I don't run English through babelfish and try to pass it off as functional Chinese, I know that to do so would be an exercise in futility and result in Chinese people everywhere pointing and laughing. It would also be a lack of respect for the people I'm trying to sell to, because, let's face it - if I'm marketing something in China and don't even make the simplest effort to make my printed material correct, they'd be perfectly justified in wondering whether I'd be capable of providing decent support, in wondering what other corners I cut, and most importantly, whether I really want their business at all in the first place.That's what this is really about - it's not really about grammar or spelling or "chinglish" or whatever... It's about respect for the people you're trying to sell to, and respect for yourself as a company, caring about how you come off to people you're trying to sell your product to.In this particular case, it's pretty clear that the lack of attention to detail and quality shown on the box is reflected in the product itself. And as Dave's continual rants against cheap Chinese products go, it's not an outlier.As an aside, I went to the web page for my GQ 5200 reflow station, and found so many grammatical and spelling errors I actually mailed them and told them that they need to fix it. Their response? "We'd love to, please help us to correct it." I sighed and sent them a correction. I figured it was my good deed for the day.

author: Yaksaredabomb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 07:16:58 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on June 11, 2013, 06:33:05 amThanks - same here.Well, I guess I'm a little thick-headed today because it's pretty obvious when you put it that way! Ha! I would never dream of trying to sell a product in China that way. I'd be pretty embarrassed. I'd absolutely hire someone to help me do it right. Part of the problem is it would have been so darn easy and cheap for them to get a native English speaker (or even non-native, just a real person haha) to review their own company slogan - not to mention the rest of the box.Kudos to GQ for taking the criticism well, even if their site should've been better in the first place. Good on you for being generous and helping out.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 09:29:48 am
content: Btw, these 30wfms/s, yes, on "the slowest DSO ever" (no, it's not, LeCroy, TEK have some similar "gears") they need tobe watched from a different point of view:- let's take a Rigol DS2000, at 14000points we have max 50k wfms/s. Divide now these continues 10M points / Rigol 14k,that's 714 times more, so divide now Rigols 50k wfms/s / 714 and we get 70. That's means Rigol's "equivalent" wfms/s(to get total of 10Mpoint sampled data at one piece) is 70 wfms/s, this is not that much compared to Owon's 30 wfms/s.- let's take Agilent DSOX3000, at ~2000point we have 1M wfms/s. Now Owon 10M / Agilent 2k ist 5000, and thenAgilent 1M wfms div by 5000 is 200. So the DSOX3000 "equivalent" wfms/s is at 200, this is only 7 times fasterthan Owon (and not like 1M wfms/s vs. 30 wfms/s).I remember LeCory used this as sales argumetation "the data is there, you have only to search for it", and that's the craphere, the PC software is crap, all you can do is to export to csv and search with 3rd app to find a glitch. So the "idea" behindwhat Owon did was maybe good (or at least something what other did as well when faster wfms/s at small buffer wasnot possible to get implemented), but due missing inteligent zoom or/and search and/or PC software the implementation is bad.I however prefer to have small piece of data updated very fast, when impemented properly (DPO-like) the benefit (save of timewhile watching/searching loooong records) is huge.Where Owon made for sure a mistake is the wfms/s at 1k/10k, if they were at 1k let say 1000 wfms/s, everybodywould be happy (or at least not complained about).Quote from: TRIO_Smartcal on June 11, 2013, 06:22:31 amthat's exact the point (and i don't like Owon, never ever liked), bandwidth is good (and can be for sure changed up to 500MHz), sample rate high enought for 1GHz DSO (even if "only" with 100k, but that's more than enought) and 10Mpoint are a lotof memory, yes with 1GS/s max, but that's fair enought. And when someone really need to find a glitch, hell, then exportthe data and use Excel to search. For that price there is no competition for SDS9302.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 11:05:18 am
content: Pretty typical "Chinese UI syndrome"... the prevailing thought is mostly "if you can use it/figure out what it says, who cares?"

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2013, 12:22:57 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 11, 2013, 09:29:48 am@tinhead:I understand your argument - and I agree with it to some degree - but I just wanted to make two points.In your comparison, you're making the Rigol slower and the Agilent faster than is actually the case. Since your argument is based around the idea of actual captures per second (as opposed to what gets to the display), let's define the numbers in those terms. For arguments sake, let's say the Owon is capturing 10MPts @ 30 wfrm/s @ 20ns/div (I don't know the precise number at that setting, but this is just an estimate); that would be equivalent to 300MPts/s. The Agilent X3000's wfrm/s rate @ 20ns/div is 960k wfrm/s using 800Pts (I don't know where you got 2000 from: 200ns/(1/4G) = 800); which equates to 768MPts/s. OTOH, the Rigol's wfrm/s rate @ 20ns/div with 14MPt is 142; which equates to 1.988GPts/s - so in pure capture speed, it beats both other DSOs at that setting.Unfortunately, capture speed is just a part of the equation - and the work of getting the portion of those waveforms that are visible processed and pushed to the display is the more difficult part to do quickly. So, in terms of your original point - yes, it's true, the specifications are closer than it appears if you just look at capture rates - but they are still very far apart when you consider what actually makes it to the screen - as well as the number of individual triggers the DSO can respond to within the given period.

author: Slothie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 12:22:38 am
content: One of the most disappointing things about all of this is how the Chinese seem to be able to produce excellent hardware and manufacture it to a high quality (I'm talking about test equipment not power adapters !) but then throw awful firmware at it.I personally have a number of bits of cheap test gear from China which are excellent bits of hardware with frustratingly and unnecessarily crap software. It actually doesn't cost much more to write good software than it does to write bad software, it just takes talent. Judging by the many programmers of Chinese origin I have come across there is nothing gentically unique about the Chinese that prevents them being excellent programmers so surely not ALL the good ones have left China to go work in the west?Its not like companies like Owon are new startups - they've been producing scopes for years and you think they'd have the money to get someone to design a decent user interface and core software they can move from scope to scope as they develop them. Surely it would be worth getting some advice on what Americans/Europeans/etc expect from user interfaces? To get and listen to customer feedback? Alpha testing with key user groups? This is what the greats like Tek and HP/Agilent did (although depressingly even they seem to be forgetting all they have learned). Perhaps there is something cultural we are missing in the way the Chinese view user interface design and what they need to do is team up with foreign software developers to do it for them in products destined for "western" markets.Anyhow I'll go back to my '72 Tektronix 7600 and look at some sine waves to calm myself

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 01:17:42 am
content: Quote from: Slothie on June 12, 2013, 12:22:38 am.... <sigged> ...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 01:50:36 am
content: Quote from: marmad on June 11, 2013, 12:22:57 pmAnd that is ultimately all that matters. After all, a scope is used to capture and view waveforms. If a scope can't capture and/or view that (infrequent) waveform, it's useless at that task. But of course is still useful for other things.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 01:56:49 am
content: Footstool? Doorstop? Driving nails?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 02:10:09 am
content: OK, let's say that the waveform update speed 30 waves/sec is OK at 10MB per channel...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:07:22 am
content: After reading all of these comments, I wonder if someone could do what they did for the Welec and fix or rewrite the firmware. I bet it'd be a nice little scope if the buggy firmware wasn't in the way.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:21:36 am
content: I am not sure what was with Welec, but their firmware was quite open source or something... But Welec had a crap hardware, too. Owon's HW is rather OK.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:33:29 am
content: BTW, I just opened a package I got from China. It was a little 10 pin to 6 pin atmel adapter. It came with a little business card asking me to give good feedback. PERFECT English.See, Owon? It can be done!

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 04:39:21 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 12, 2013, 02:10:09 amWell, it was OK two years ago - I'm not so sure it's even OK anymore. As I mentioned, the DS2000 can do 142 wfrm/s with 14MPts. So almost 5 times the speed with 40% more memory.

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 06:22:08 am
content: What do you think, would it be possible for Owon to issue completely new firmware, increasing the update rate at 1k of memory? I have read here that they have some nice FPGA+SoC hardware inside which could provide the raw power needed for processing.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 06:42:37 am
content: Quote from: Nermash on June 12, 2013, 06:22:08 amDude, they couldnt even manage to write screen refresh routine that would not glitch. What makes you think they are capable of upgrading specs with optimized programming?

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: Nermash on June 12, 2013, 06:22:08 amWell, users/owners have been asking/wondering about this since August of 2011 (as well as vernier control of vertical/horizontal, proper 'zoom' routine or markers, etc.). And what is the number of major firmware changes or heavily-requested new features added since then? [as far as I know - I could be wrong]0.Edit:And as much as I also dislike Rigol's attitude of secrecy surrounding FW fixes or distribution, a bunch of us owners were complaining for about 4 or 5 months about the way the DS2000 cleared the display and then didn't redraw the waveform while moving it (not a bug - but a bad programming decision) - Rigol went ahead and quietly 'changed it' (i.e. fixed it) in the newest FW, showing, at least, that they're paying attention a bit to their customers.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 05:25:46 pm
content: I am not a Rigol fan but theymake progress, while Tektronix does nothing... (Except TBS1000 funny scope.)

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 05:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 12, 2013, 05:25:46 pmSo, what you're saying is, you're not a Rigol fan?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 05:59:15 pm
content: Well, in 10 years Rigol will be like japanese cars nowadays.Anyway, try setting their websitehttp://www.rigol.com/to Chinese version and you will see that they sell DP800, MSO4000, DS2000-S and DS1000Ztodayin China (and not in Europe.)And I wonder what this is...http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/%E9%AB%98%E6%95%88%E6%B6%B2%E7%9B%B8%E8%89%B2%E8%B0%B1%E7%B3%BB%E7%BB%9F/It looks like an chemical research machine...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-performance_liquid_chromatography

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 08:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 12, 2013, 05:59:15 pmI assume it's their way of trying to iron out remaining problems before releasing products outside their base country - many manufacturers in Western countries do the same thing.

author: TomC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 02:28:19 am
content: I just posted my likes and dislikes for my SDS7102 after owning it for 5 months.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg246541/#msg246541Warning: The things I like may make you choke and the things I dislike may make you envision a rubber room.

author: big9swimmer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 05:29:25 pm
content: Thumbs down. I didnt see anything I liked about it.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 05:33:34 pm
content: Well, it has a low end performance, but still it has large memory, large LCD and VGA output... But these are not the most important specs of a scope.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 05:57:42 pm
content: Quote from: nitro2k01 on June 11, 2013, 06:20:33 amEver got lost in the Moscow metro?