Why is Hillary Clinton above the law? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 01:46:53 pm
content: I thought that in America, politicians were considered servants of the people?As I understand it she basically removed emails classified as Confidential and Top Secret, and transferred them over to a personal email server.The emails were previously all held on an air gapped server, and subsequently appeared to have their classification markings deliberately removed.Now this wasn't some bimbo making her life easier, this was a deliberate action to subvert a National security system.If I had had a fraction of the security clearance that she has and I'd removedanythingfrom an air gapped system, then quite rightly I'd have been crucified by the FBI. Yet Comery (who has a year to go before retirement *cough* surprise), considered this merely "careless" and not worthy of prosecution.I think it is reasonable to point out that when normal people like Bradley Manning are charged with "transmitting defense information in violation of the Espionage Act", which is exactly what Hillary did here, then the two cases should be treated the same.There are no excuses for breaking this Act of Law, that's the whole point - you sign up to have access, you are told exactly what "Top Secret" means in words of one syllable - but if you break the conditions then you are automatically prosecuted for being a dumb ass and risking other people's lives.Ignorance (or wilful indifference) is no excuse.There are clearly two standards at work here.Yes it is awkward if a potential President is caught breaking the law, but that is what systems of justice are for, to protect everyone equally. Yet these failings have been going on for a long time, it's practically a media trope that the preppy white kid can get away with rape if his father is rich or important enough.Just think of the message that would have been sent if she were to be prosecuted - that even ultra powerful white politicians were subservient to American justice, wouldn't that have made America look like it was based on some form of morality?Yet now, American politics just looks grubby and bent, and confirming to everyone that its laws only apply to the powerless.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 02:01:46 pm
content: "You are either With Us or Against Us"You have a choice now , errrr i think .

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 02:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 01:46:53 pmOnly now?

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 02:24:55 pm
content: I agree with your concern over two standards. I have a little different perspective though. Prosecutors often are very quick to go after the little guy. I strongly believe in prosecutorial discretion. However, it seems it is far more often used when it is politically convenient to use for "important people" than used across the board. There are far too many cases where people have gotten prosecuted for less or other poor handling of computer equipment. The problem is not that Clinton wasn't prosecuted, but that way too much is illegal and prosecutors are happy to use this to their advantage. So it is inconsistent, but I don't see that it is good for the government to rush to charging people. Essentially Clinton got the benefit of the doubt that everyone else should have but don't.I am very concerned with having people who have absolutely no knowledge of technology or security in power. This is far more than just Clinton but a common trend. It is a big part of today's society, someone willing to compromise security to that level for a little convenience shouldn't be in charge of anything.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 02:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: dferyance on July 07, 2016, 02:24:55 pmYep, this is an issue in businesses too.You set up a network that's really secure, everything has layered access with personnel related read/write permissions, every access is tracked, every file movement monitored.Then in comes the Chairman, who wants dial in access to everything from his shitty home laptop that his kid downloads porn on.These people are not the sharpest tool in the box when it comes to viruses and phishing either.I'd imagine the Government security people were tearing their hair out over Clinton's actions.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 03:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 01:46:53 pm

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 03:11:21 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 01:46:53 pmOh sweet summer child, when you are connected with influential friends, you can get away with just about anything.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 03:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 01:46:53 pmYou really Don't know the answer to that?The same reason the Queen is above the law.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 03:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on July 07, 2016, 03:09:26 pmI'm not being naive here, I know the obvious realities of the situation - I'm pointing out what your constitution issupposedto be about and what Law issupposedto stand for, so we can discuss why this has been allowed to slide so far.Or we can do the witty cynicisms and laughing smileys thing for ten pages...And the Queen isn't above the law, the office of the Queen/King is.I'm guessing this is much like the provision to impeach an American President.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 03:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 01:46:53 pmBill said: "close, but no cigar"

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 03:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 02:53:28 pmYep. This.Secure, firewalled, backed up, access logs, internet useage monitoring, access to personal email blocked, porn filtering bought, paid for and implememnted, group policies implemented to lock down all manner of access and internal emails digitally signed and encrypted.Passwords, not allowed to enforce complexity rules or make passwords longer than four characters 'because it's too difficult for people to remember them' so the CFO used to alternate her passwords between 'pink' and 'purple', the CEO used to use his ex wife's name 'gemma' or 'Gemma'.Which everyone in the office knew.Which didn't go down too well when I mentioned it in front of his new wife.Ooops.The last straw for my involvement with them was a 7:30PM phone call from the CEO insisting I delete all traces of an email he had sent to one of their clients because it was being cited in a court case against the company and he wanted it to go away.Obviously I refused, in an email to the board, and terminated my involvement with them.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 03:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 03:18:36 pmI disagree the Queen and the whole Royal family is above the law in practice.They wipe their butts with the laws of your country just like the last eight administrations have here in the US have.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 04:01:53 pm
content: I would imagine she will want the launch codes on her Blackberry so she doesn't have to have someone around carrying the 'football'. Unencrypted, of course, because security is such a bother...It will be so much simpler...

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 04:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 07, 2016, 04:01:53 pmHuma Abedin will carry around the FootBall.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 04:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 07, 2016, 03:44:05 pmPrincess Anne has notoriety for achieving at least one criminal conviction for speeding as far as I remember.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 04:23:39 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on July 07, 2016, 04:22:12 pmNo doubt any fines were suspended.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 04:26:01 pm
content: Above the law? What are you talking about?The FBI investigation didn't find any “gross negligence” as required by our laws, just "extremely careless”.;-)

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 04:36:10 pm
content: Hey OP, assuming you really want to understand this, the difference between Clinton and Manning is intent. Manning intentionally disclosed secret documents, but Clinton had no such intention, and nothing secret was disclosed as a result of her actions. If Manning had just copied secret documents to a drive and stuck it in her garage, she wouldn't be in jail.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 04:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on July 07, 2016, 04:36:10 pmI have to disagree Clinton had intent, otherwise she would have followed standard procedure and not set up the server in the first place. The server was a drop box for classified correspondence.My how some have short memories.Remember the Clintons selling off guidance and booster secrets to the Chinese.I worked for Loral Corp shortly before that happened. I had friends still working there who spilled the beans. about a sale of high dollar gear to the PRC.The real reason Clinton won't be prosecuted has to do with career damage or potential loss of life that the prosecutor will incur. If that woman gets elected this country will be in Deep, Deep shit, worse than it already is.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 05:01:38 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 07, 2016, 04:41:07 pmYeah, it'd be far better to have Donny in power, he's only been accused and not been convicted of rape of minors.So far.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 05:02:16 pm
content: QuoteIn theory you are correct. In practice politicians view people as voting box fodder that do not exist until a few months before the elections, at which point they need to be fed a finely balanced diet of bullshit.edit: applies to all countries world wide.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 05:21:21 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 07, 2016, 04:41:07 pmI think the difference is whether the intent was to "simplify one's life" (Clinton) with regards to the official duties (I can imagine the secure network access is a real hassle) or whether the intent was to disclose documents to journalists and others who were not suppossed to have them (Manning).I hope you are not going to claim that both are the same thing, intent as intent.However, what I would expect to happen is that she and her aides that have been involved should have her security clearances cancelled after this, as an unacceptable risk. And some people who should have known better should be fired if they are still there.She was certainly negligent and got very lucky that no classified stuff has "leaked" or was stolen. So she should be punished for negligence but not for things that could have but ultimately did not happen. It is the same difference as between negligence and negligent homicide. The former is not a crime but can get you fired or penalized at work, the latter gets you in jail.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 05:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 07, 2016, 04:41:07 pmThe gross negligence section of the law doesn't even require intent. It's a rigged game.At this point, we have one clear course of correction left, not electing her.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 05:54:59 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 07, 2016, 05:01:38 pmDon't forget Bill Clinton when he was governor did rape several women, nearly all of which were settled out of court.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 05:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on July 07, 2016, 05:21:47 pmIn a two-horse race, that equates to voting for the other guy.....My mind is drifting in this direction....

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 07, 2016, 05:21:21 pmIt is funny how Hillery gets a pass for setting up an open drop box with classified materials in it. You do know that server was hacked, and she and her IT department knew it....QuoteManning blew the whistle on illegal activities.You are not obligated to adhere to your oath when illegal activity is involved.QuoteDo you Really think that will happen to a sitting President?You are not serious are you.QuoteOh but it was lots of it.QuoteYes she should be punished she should be hung by the neck until dead or face a firing squad, one which I would love to be a member of. That Bitch is evil.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on July 07, 2016, 05:21:47 pmThrow the bitch in jail and loose the key.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:05:50 pm
content: Because the US is a 3rd world country.Comey was basically rewriting the statue. The statue says that you can be charged if you put classified information at risk either intentionally or with gross negligence. Comeys whole speech laid out a case to charge her under gross negligence. Yet, he kept focusing on 1 lack of intent, and 2 no actually evidence of classified information being hacked.I would like to see the transcript of the FBI interview to be made public. And it wouldn't surprise me if someone within the FBI disagree with the director on that.BTW, there is plenty in the Comey speech to charge her for lying to congress, and to stripe her of her security clearance, and that of her assistants.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:12:51 pm
content: I don't think that transcript will see the light of day in it's raw form.As a woman who has held a clearance you are told in no uncertain terms that you are unconditionally responsible for every bit of classified material (hardware, software, documents) you come in contact with. Where does that bitch get off with a pass for what could be seen as treason.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 07, 2016, 04:23:39 pmAu contraire Sue, she's quite the jail bird.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1218009.stmAnd another offence with a dog connection, althogh thankfully not in a public carpark.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2497531.stm

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:34:39 pm
content: That just makes my point all the more how entitled some of those folk feel they are.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:43:51 pm
content: I would point to the airport meeting between Lynch and Clinton as evidence how above the law the political class thinks they are. Any reasonably intelligent person, let alone the country's top lawyer and a law scholar, would immediately see the conflict of interest, or at least the perception of it, that meeting could raise.They don't give a shit about it, because they own the press and they own their voter base.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:45:26 pm
content: Hillary for Prison 2016!!-Pat

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:14:39 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on July 07, 2016, 06:45:26 pm

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 07, 2016, 07:14:39 pmCalm down, your getting very hot under the collar about this.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:24:11 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on July 07, 2016, 07:15:22 pmNot at all I am just expressing myself.It is disturbing to see America turn into a third world Shit Hole.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:25:50 pm
content: there is expressing yourself and expressing yourself. You seem pretty furious. If the thread degenerates I will have to lock it, we don't usually do politics on here.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 07, 2016, 05:14:25 pmThe best explanation so far.Love American politics discussed by non-AmericansThis will probably get shut down soon.My only feeling is she said none and the FBI said many.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 07, 2016, 05:01:38 pmWell, since I'm being presented with the choice between someone who's relatively unknown andcouldbe bad for the country in the long run and someone with a history of doing things and holding stated positions and beliefs that I believeWILLharm the country, the choice is easy. I'm not thrilled with the prospect of Trump in the White House, but given the alternative there's nothing else to do. Some day I'd like to be presented with a slate that lets me vote FOR someone, rather thanagainsttheir opponent.-Pat

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:38:27 pm
content: what if no one voted. is there a minimum quota to make the vote valid ?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on July 07, 2016, 07:36:38 pmWhy not consider Jill Stein or Gary Johnson? Just say no to the lesser of 2 evils thing..

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on July 07, 2016, 07:25:50 pmLets get on track. Pretend that you are Secretary of State, how do you set up an email server?Do you just go to Frys and get a computer and download some sort of software? How about the internet carrier? Details please, someday I may become Secretary of State (State of Confusion)Can someone, say from the Pentagon, be able to tell by the IP "code" (sorry I do not know the correct term) that it came from a private server?One thing I know about email is that it has @xxx in the name. What was her @xxx ?Could it be hill@hillary.com ?http://www.hillary.com/Interesting business ? "We Eliminate Paper Reports"

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 08:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 07, 2016, 07:52:59 pmThe trouble with that is I don't think that they're truly viable candidates, which would effectively make it a vote for Hillary. Saying no to the lesser of the two evils thing in this case would help to ensure that the greater evil prevails IMO. Clinton initially got in due to Ross Perot running as a third party candidate; he certainly drew more support from people who might otherwise have voted for Bush than those who supported Clinton. Who knows how that election might have gone without Perot. In 2000 it was the opposite party that was effected, with Nader reducing the support for Gore, quite possibly costing him the election as it was so close.-Pat

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 09:06:48 pm
content: I watched Comey testimony at the Congress this morning. He comes as a sincere and straight talking person, not like that weasel Lynch. Comey opinion is that Clinton broke the literal meaning of the 'gross negligence' section but since that section requires only negligence and not intent, the DOJ doesn't feel comfortable using it.Some of the best questions in the testimony came from an MIT EE engineer, congressman Thomas Massie from Kentucky. Here it is at the 2:12:30 timemark. Notice how Massie demonstrates 1) the negligence concept is used often in our courts and 2) the FBI did an incomplete investigation.http://youtu.be/XY2MHiQlizQ?t=2h12m30s

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 09:28:32 pm
content: "Comey opinion is that Clinton broke the literal meaning of the 'gross negligence' section but since that section requires only negligence and not intent, "Whoever gave him that interpretation should be disbarred and forced to go back to middle school.You cannot require gross negligence AND intent, as the two are mutually exclusive, by definition.The statute he was referring to clearly stated that intent OR gross negligence is needed to charge a person. And there is no shortage of charging people without proving intent. Wen hou Lee was an example. He placed classified documents on insecure computers in his lab, as done customarily by his co-workers too.What is clear is that there is one set of rules for us and another for them.If I were Trump, that would be what I run on.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 10:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on July 07, 2016, 07:25:50 pmAs for example the growing lenght Brexit thread.Lets face it people naturally seem to want to be pulled towards one or more of the followings:SportsPoliticsReligionProbable because anyone can play regardless of race, creed, education level, or intelligence.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 10:21:24 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on July 07, 2016, 05:21:47 pmBut but everyone knows the Hillary is too big tofailjail.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 10:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on July 07, 2016, 10:21:24 pmWell We do but look what happened to Lee Harvey Oswald

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 10:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 01:46:53 pm

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 10:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on July 07, 2016, 04:36:10 pmManning wanted to blow the whistle, which may or may not have a moral defence if not a legal one.And we can't 100% prove that nothing has been disclosed. I could intercept any email if I had the right access.Intent is a red herring I feel.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917"the notions of obtaining or delivering information relating to "national defense" to a person who was not "entitled to have it""Which she did, she emailed classified information to someone.It says nothing about this being OK if that person being emailed is your BFFThis is the whole point of such an Act, to identify what stuff is secret and to crucify anyone who does not handle that information properly. Not to second guess what may have happened or to consider mitigating circumstances, but simply that if this secret file ever leavesthis locationthen we willautomaticallyimpose the death penalty on your dumb ass.It has to be this way because everyone considers themselves perfectly capable of keeping a secret, but security professionals know that MI5 laptops get left in the back of London Taxis all the time. So it boils down to "was a line crossed, yes or no".Security systems are there for a purpose, from your PIN to a diary under a pillow, she deliberately subverted a system that she found annoying to use.Everyonefinds it annoying, but they don't subvert it because they do not want to get the death penalty for bypassing it. She therefore not only considers herself more important than everyone else, but crucially, considers her time more important than the lives of those people that the Top Secret classification is supposed to protect.I don't know a great deal about Clinton, but she strikes me as the sort of person who only cares about what she wants, so the fact that she deliberately ignored a National Security protocol simply to suit herself is entirely predictable.The fact that the FBI is willing to look the other way to protect themselves is also entirely predictable.Personally I'm only seeing this from the viewpoint of someone who was once trusted to secure a companies information, so if I was the guy whose air gapped server security had just been cynically pissed on by Hillary Clinton, then I'd be fuming.If I was one of the people who had signed the UK Official Secrets Act, then I'd be equally unimpressed by someone who not only doesn't recognise the absolute responsibility that it engenders, but whose political career has been saved by the same people who would have automatically crucified them if they had made the same mistake.Trump may not care for muslims, but Hillary doesn't appear to respect anyone.Thank God we only have to suffer Corbyn for a few more weeks.MT, if all you want to do is post pictures, try reading the thread for the actual meaning of stuff you quote,we can all see the difference between what is supposed to happen and what does happen, I shouldn't have to include disclaimers for the obvious.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 10:55:24 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on July 07, 2016, 10:50:04 pmSorry, i make the picture smaller!But you have to formulate your thinking beyond the idea of politicians being there for nothing "but" them selfs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 11:14:05 pm
content: This is in no way electronics related and will only get out of hand.Locking thread.