Suggestions Hakko FX-100 vs metcal MX500 or MX5200 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 12:22:33 am
content: I think is time to change my soldering station and I wanted to ask suggestions about what could be best to buy between a Hakko FX-100 or a Metcal MX 500 or 5200.I saw some information and I see appears the Hakko does similar kind of induction than metcal and also you can use the metcal hands with tips on hakko. I want to select also the best choice in variety of tips and upgrade factors. Also what could be the best option long lasting and with great quality and performance. The price always is important but in the case the best option is a little more expensive in general (with tips, accessories and so on) is not important really considering the best option is worth the price.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 01:03:57 am
content: The MX500 is long lasting because its schematic is available and it's is made with 'discrete' off the shelf ICs (that is, no MCU, firmware, etc).http://scopetechniques.com/Metcal/MX-500P-11.pdf

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 01:17:58 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 07, 2016, 01:03:57 amThat's theoldMX-500. ThenewMX-500 is MCU controlled.

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 01:23:55 am
content: Then is more suggested the metcal better than the hakko fx 100?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 04:10:13 am
content: Quote from: coerrace on October 07, 2016, 01:23:55 amI don't recall anybody here reporting on the fx 100 so there is not enough data to compare.The metcal has a large selection of cartridges, from both Metcal and thermaltronics (a spin off of ex Metcal employees).Since you are in the US, you can have good deal on used Metcals on ebay (I got a used MX500 power supply from ebay and a new handpiece and stand from Amazon). E.g. this one (too good to be true?)http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metcal-MX-500P-11-2-Port-SMT-Soldering-Rework-Station-2-Wands-/131962445716?hash=item1eb9931f94:g:nlIAAOSwLnBX5IOT

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 11:35:08 am
content: Yes I see that the FX-100 I don't see so much information just some reviews from buyers in amazon and other stores and they say is great but is limited. I saw also some people want to plug the FX-100 tips in metcal and honestly I don't know what special things have the tips of FX-100 because looking the tips for soldering and rework for metcal like you mention there are a lot and I think there is no need to plug a FX-100 in metcal maybe people want to do that for the price only.I will go for metcal.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 12:50:17 pm
content: The Hakko FX-100 and Metcal stations use the same basic technology and their handpieces are compatible (they both use coaxial F connectors). The shapes of the tips differ: the Hakko FX-1001 handpiece fits T31 series tips, while the Metcal RM3E fits STTC series tips. To use Hakko tips on a Metcal station you need an FX-1001, which costs about $100.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 01:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 07, 2016, 01:13:34 pmThe ease of changing tips is a great advantage IMO. With the WES51 I rarely changed tips because of the hassle.

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 01:51:15 pm
content: Yes I see that metcal sounds very good and there are a lot of options and tips including for reworking.About this:Quote from: helius on October 07, 2016, 12:50:17 pmI understand Hakko FX-100 tips can be used in metcal with the FX-1001 but just a simple question is there any big advantage in Hakko FX-100 Tips to justify the buy of a FX-1001? I ask because I see a very big catalog of tips on metcal and I don´t understand what reason could be in buy a FX-1001 if metcal has everything.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 06:11:50 pm
content: I can't help on the FX-100 as I have the FX-951, but I do have a MX500. Very nice piece of equipment. If you can score one, you will enjoy using it.

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 07:38:52 pm
content: Yes metcal is the rule I looked everywhere and appears very solid.I was trying to catch one MX500 but looking I found one option of 5200 with tweezers and the price is almost the same than the MX 500 but for the 5200 of course new with twezers. If I buy all by separate for the 500 cross the line of the offer with the 5200 including twezers. The thing is about the space I see the 5200 is a little bigger than 500 but is a great deal if I take the 5200 instead the 500 I guess or not? Or is bigger and uncomfortable to use the 5200?And another question a hot air only station suggested what could be or brand I was looking one tenma and it has excellent reviews. For the hot air is not necessary an excepcional brand that is the reason I want the metcal the hot air i just want to use like a backup in special occasions.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 07:44:17 pm
content: I wouldn't bother with tweezers- two irons, one in each hand, is much more useable for removing chip parts ( obviously needs a dual output PSU like the 5200), and also means you have a spare iron.

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 08:02:56 pm
content: Excellent I will order the 5200 and twezers now and some tips.Thank you for the orientation if someone knows an acceptable hot air station would be great hear suggestions.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 11:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: coerrace on October 07, 2016, 08:02:56 pmYou might also want to take a look at a Quick 861DW (1kW, digital interface w/ lots of features). Very comparable to a Hakko FR-810, but at a fraction of the price ($235), and it even has an intuitive UI (unlike the Hakko). And it's well built.Plenty of info here in the forum, including photos (other models are the 861DS and 861DA for the EU & UK markets respectively; all that changes is the transformer & power cord).

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 12:36:30 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 07, 2016, 11:58:37 pmLooks very interesting for the price I was looking the Tenma 21-10125 but 1kw in the Quick 861DW and that price is worth to test honestly. And I see also the Quick has a lot of nozzles for desoldering and reworking wow. Nice tip!!!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 03:01:41 am
content: Quote from: coerrace on October 08, 2016, 12:36:30 amYou're welcome.FWIW, Tenma is a brand name owned by Farnell (Newark/Element 14 in the US, and also own MCM here in the states), and it's lowest bidder type of stuff. Not that it doesn't have it's place, but I wouldn't call it anywhere near top quality. For disclosure, I own a Tenma branded hot air preheater; does what I need on the rare occasions I have to pull it off the shelf. But for a primary tool, look elsewhere IMHO.As per the nozzles for the Quick 861, they're friction fit rather than screw clamp. Makes it a lot easier & quicker to romove (tool built into the stand). But you will need a silicone rubber pad to install different ones when the unit is running/hot IME. Unfortunately this isn't included, but at least they're inexpensive (i.e.Hakko B2300).You'll also find the 3 nozzles included in the 861 will cover just about any job you have. In fact, making or purchasing shields/protectors from thin sheet metal will do better than specialty nozzles IME (ready-madeprotectorsby JBC); especially on tightly packed PCB's. JBC also makes vacuumtripodsand protectors with vacuum plungers attached (extractors), so a modified aquarium pump will lift the chip once it's been desoldered.They're ^ not cheap, but not horrendous either (though if you need a lot, they will add up, just as tips do; but at least they don't wear out). For example, the shields/protectors run ~$20 per, extractors ~$40 per, and the stand-alone tripods that straddle the shield/protectors ~$45 per (the legs rotate around the shaft, so are flexible regarding placement).

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 03:21:25 am
content: Now I found thermaltronics tips supposed for metcal also but cheaper this is real? Same quality of tips from metcal? What I was reading about thermaltronics that was founded by old employees of metcal. But what you think of thermaltronics tips? The tips has the same quality of metcal or is suggested go with metcal brand?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 05:18:23 am
content: Quote from: coerrace on October 08, 2016, 03:21:25 amOne of my tips is from thetmaltronics and as far as I can tell it works just as well. My subjective opinion is that they are on par with Metcal.Their claim for fame is a color mark on the cartridge that inductes the temperature group of that tip. They even got a patent for this trivial 'innovation' in China.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 09:43:17 am
content: The two tips I use 90% of the time are Thermaltronics and I can't remember when I last changed either - must be at least a couple of years of daily useTheir version of the SMTC-1147 is better than Metcal's as it has sharper corners, making it good for getting right up to the joints when reflowing QFNs - you can actually drag-solder QFNs with it if the pads come out about 0.5mm or so from the package outline.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 11:45:14 am
content: 2 of my tips are Thermaltronics and they work just the same as the Metcal tips. Try to look up forum member denbo32, he has offered EEVBloggers discounts in the past on the Thermaltronics tips.

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 03:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on October 08, 2016, 11:45:14 amThank you

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2016, 09:15:16 pm
content: I have the same Metcal as Blueskull. When I got it, it was like every soldering job got 10x easier. And the 5 second startup from cold is amazing!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: chucksticks
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 03:17:26 am
content: This article was the most helpful to me regarding the FX-100:http://www.stratesysgroup.com/HakkoFX100.htmlIt's advertised there that hakko's fx100 is better than the metcal stuff.Cold start time can be seen here:https://youtu.be/sj5NLW52TFU?t=44sBetween FX-100's approx. 7secs and metcal's 4secs start time, I'd not sure that it matters as most of the time I won't need to be ready to solder something that fast from cold start.I'm too looking in the market for a more advanced soldering system for my R&D type projects but I've about settled on getting a temperature adjustable iron since I want to run my stuff at lower temp's (around 300C or less; especially if I have a preheater system). I've been looking around for as much info. on the fx-100 as I could and I'll tell you there's not much out there. From what I've gathered, I think the FX-100 is about 2 years old. They should have something up their sleeves for trying to enter the curie point iron market so late.The tips are nicely priced and with decent variety, ranging from 0.1mm conical to 4.5mm knife and 2.8mm 'hoof' bevel:https://www.hakkousa.com/products/soldering-iron-tips/t31-series-fx-100.htmlThe metcal's have more tips I believe and at more temperatures (particularly going as low as 315C) but you can put in requests to hakko for new tip designs if they don't have the ones you need already.As for my experience, I've never touched a hakko iron before but I've used a metcal ps-5200 at work. Like some people have said, it's like a tank. The power supply's body is full metal. The iron's themselves are very lightweight (aluminum I think) and hollow but the cable is heavier and can drag it down. It can be unnerving to hot swap tips as it's driving alot of power and I can feel it get too hot very fast through the silicone pads.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:24:14 am
content: Quote from: chucksticks on October 10, 2016, 03:17:26 amTurn it off when changing tips!Quote from: Metcal

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 05:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: chucksticks on October 10, 2016, 03:17:26 amYes I'm nervous waiting my metcal I bought the same like yours with twezers and yes there are a lot of tips/cartridges and with thermaltronics much better. I saw in thermaltronics one tip of .1mm without the need of the MX-H2-UF and I see also that between thermaltronics and metcal companies together there are a lot of options and there is no need to look elsewhere if you have a metcal.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 08:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 10, 2016, 10:24:14 amNo need. The later psus,5000 and later, auto-reset. You just get used to swapping quickly-you can let go as soon as the tip is seated

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:05:45 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2016, 08:23:19 pmYoucanchange tips without turning off, but those are the instructions for the current 5000/5200 series, and the above is taken verbatim from their user manuals. This isn't the ass covering over careful approach like the instructions for drills that say to remove the battery before changing bits, its the more practical case of not trying to change bits while the drill is still operating (although you could). Tuning off the power both recommended by the manufacturer and a sensible way to avoid putting excess heat into the tip changing pad.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:14:02 pm
content: You'd have to hold the tip way longer than necessary to get any heat into the pad. Also, the MX5000 takes a second or two to reset anyway.The power switch on the 5000 isn't the best so by turning on & off every time you're bound to shorten its life.I never turn off and change tips multiple times a day - it just isn't an issue

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 12:23:54 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2016, 10:14:02 pmYou can, its not recommended by the manufacturer and some of us feel its uncomfortably warm. Whats your problem with that? Recommending people don't turn it off is how we've ended up here.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 03:16:10 am
content: Ifthe Metcal requires the power to be off when changing tips, then it is notably inferior to both JBC and Pace.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 03:42:12 am
content: Quote from: helius on October 11, 2016, 03:16:10 amThe quick change mechanism on the JBC stands is much better all round, those resistive stations have their advantages to be sure. But for instance Thermaltronics also include the warning to turn off the power supply when changing tips but most users don't bother:

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 10:50:35 am
content: Quote from: helius on October 11, 2016, 03:16:10 amIt doesn't. If there was any real issue the PSU would be designed to not auto-reset.The older Metcals didn't auto-reset, but that's probably because they were dumb supplies with no MCU.If you're paranoid about heat then you can grasp the tip far enough away from the rne that heat is negligible

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 01:54:22 pm
content: How power cycling becomes such an argument I'll never know.*resumes flipping power switch on bulletproof old Metcal*

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 02:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 11, 2016, 01:54:22 pmYes, a non issue. The requirements of manual resume is for safety, in case you insert a cold tip with bare hands, it would burn your fingers in no time.A momentary resume push button would be nice though.

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 10:55:18 pm
content: Anyone know or suggest a cable extension to use between the hand MX-H1-AV and the metcal 5200? Where I will have located the unit I need only like a 15-30 inches more than the default cable maybe. I see the metcal factory cable is a kind of F connector but maybe could work with a simple coaxial cable for TV M-F extensions? This is the reason why ask to know if maybe there is a suggested brand or any recommendation to extend the original factory cable.Thank you

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 12:04:09 am
content: Quote from: coerrace on October 15, 2016, 10:55:18 pmIs the unit in another room? My problem on my Metcal MX-500 is the cable is TOO long. I wish it and the cable for my Hakko FX-951 were shorter.

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 12:49:50 am
content: Yes not exactly other room but a little distant. The unit is located in one intended area for that where I have other tools but the work table is not there and I only to extend just a little.

author: chucksticks
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 07:15:13 am
content: Quote from: coerrace on October 15, 2016, 10:55:18 pmHere's an interesting thread on DIY Metcal here on eevblog:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/diy-metcal-13-56-mhz-rf-supply/?allTowards reply #164 is when they discuss some about the cable although I haven't read through the thread yet.

author: coerrace
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 12:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: chucksticks on October 16, 2016, 07:15:13 amThank you

author: connectionvalidationman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2017, 09:29:12 pm
content: The Metcal iron cord is 72 inches for a reason. The cord length is based on the physics of the operating frequency and its wavelength. You could make a short extension and most likely not affect performance, but make it too long and the system may not meet your soldering expectations.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2017, 09:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: connectionvalidationman on March 08, 2017, 09:29:12 pmIt's 72 inches because 72 inches is six feet, and six feet is a nominal length in the US.. The exact length of the cable is almost certainly not a factor in performance.They made switches which add at least a couple feet to the length - nobody seems to have performance issues with those.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2017, 04:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 08, 2017, 09:39:03 pmThe wavelength of the ~13 MHz ish signal in coax is many times longer than the ~ 2 m cable. I agree that a person could extend with some 75 ohm coax and F connectors without issue.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2021, 09:47:05 pm
content: I have a MX500 and its not as nice as the MX5200. Thinking about buying a FX-100 as its much cheaper. Not sure if its worth double the price for a metcal if they are both using same technology. Is it same level of power output?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2021, 07:32:14 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on October 04, 2021, 09:47:05 pmPower output comparisons are especially difficult for induction systems, but the MX5200 datasheet says it puts 80 watts into two channels simultaneously. The Hakko FX-100 datasheet says it puts 50 watts into one channel. The FX-100 has some kind of temperature boost setting, which gives it a little more functionality compared to the Metcal. However, it also has Hakko's well-known awkward and overcomplicated button interface (as on the FX-951, FR-810, FM-206...) which many operators will want to throw at the wall.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2021, 08:23:00 pm
content: I ordered one FX-100 and will see how it compares to the MX5200. Wondering about the Quick 202D model as its super cheap but don't think its true induction soldering iron.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2021, 08:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: helius on October 05, 2021, 07:32:14 pmIts 40Wx2 or 80Wx1.The difference between 40 or 50W and 80W is not much, unless you are working with high thermal demand applications. General soldering will be using <20W.Quote from: Reckless on October 05, 2021, 08:23:00 pmQuick202D uses true induction, but its 400kHz so not directly compatible with the 13MHz Fx100/mx5200.Also the heater coil is not in the tip, its in the handle. Similar to the budget tips on the latest Metcal stations, which are also 400kHz.Clone Hakko tips are incredibly cheap, $10/ea. Metcal tips are about $20/ea.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2021, 12:00:06 am
content: We do solder brass parts on the circuit boards.Does frequency matter? I checked my solder robot came with Quick 205H 150W soldering stations. I need to buy different wand (can't find part number). I think its induction heating. Not sure what H means and what difference is between 202/203/204/205. Does Quick have a manufacturer website? I came across a poland website but was missing a number of models.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2021, 05:16:39 pm
content: I don't think frequency is really that important on its own.Here is a PS5000 for $175:https://www.ebay.ca/itm/255165318121

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2021, 08:30:44 pm
content: What is the difference between PS-5000 and PS-5200?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2021, 09:12:43 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on October 06, 2021, 08:30:44 pmPS5200 can power both ports at the same time, PS5000 only one port at a time.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2021, 03:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on October 06, 2021, 12:00:06 amThe 13.56 MHz systems have the advantage that the handpiece and cartridges are much more compact due to the smaller size of the induction heater, as a result there's also gains in terms of thermal response. It also supports higher power delivery.I don't know how much is down to the specific cartridge design, but you can definitely tell the difference between the 13.56 MHz and 450 kHz but for normal soldering it's not really an issue.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2021, 03:34:03 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on October 06, 2021, 09:12:43 pmAs above, this can be handy for de-soldering with two handpieces.The tweezers and de-solder gun both only use one port, but two standard handpieces can be a bit more versatile.

author: labjr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2021, 04:28:37 pm
content: I've read a couple user complaints about Thermaltronics tip wear. Metcal are supposed to have a lifetime warranty. Although, I'm not sure exactly what it covers. Maybe only manufacturing defects?I don't think the Quick induction iron is compatible with Metcal whatsoever. It appears to be some hybrid design with induction and thermocouple since it's adjustable. Not sure what advantage it would have over any other design with a thermocouple?

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2021, 08:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: labjr on October 09, 2021, 04:28:37 pmAs I understand it, the induction heating is more responsive. You're heating only the low thermal resistance core which is directly connected to the tip rather than the heating element and everything surrounding it. Certainly I would say the Metcal GT120 soldering station which uses induction + thermocouple seems a lot more responsive than a standard resistive heating element.Mike said he's been using Thermaltronics tips without any notable difference in quality.Metcal cartridge warranty is that the heater will outlast the tip plating. Generally that means if the heater fails, it will be replaced, though I've still got cartridges 10+ years old.