Rant: ARM DesignStart - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 12:42:24 am
content: ARM is offering their Cortex-M0 for free to play around and at a reduced cost to commercialize. Great for start-ups, makers and tinkerers, right?RIGHT?!?!Nope. According to their tech support, to register for access, you need a valid corporate Email address and a valid corporate website. Now how does an unemployed young man seeking to start a business get those?You need a product prototype to negotiate with investors to start a company, but you need this license to make the prototype. Sense the chicken and egg problem here? What do you think their intention of this reduced cost licensing program would be?Well I think I might just go ahead and pirate a copy, and maybe pay the license later when I am ready to roll the chips. Damn stupid corporate heads conflicting with itself.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 12:49:52 am
content: Simple: register a company!

author: raspberrypi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 12:52:56 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 12:42:24 amI have always been curious how businesses function under communism; which by default doesn't allow for private business. Like what does the average north korean do all day thats not being oppressed, their "middle class", if that exists. How does money get value in such a system? US dollars work because you can pay your taxes with them.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 12:54:37 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2017, 12:49:52 amTo register a company in China you need to deposit equivalent of US$100k in a bank and have some office space (another $100k in Shanghai) first. And the housing regulation distinguishes housing and office (that is, you must not start a company in an address registered as housing and you must not live in an address registered as office) and switching is generally impossible.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 12:57:24 am
content: Quote from: raspberrypi on March 30, 2017, 12:52:56 amI have no idea either. China is communism in name and corruption only and capitalism in any other possible way.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 01:03:14 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 12:42:24 amFirst you start a company, and only then negotiate with investors and give away part of your company to them in exchange for the money. Not the other way around, of course if your intention is not to give away all of the rights to your product for peanuts.

author: garboui
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 01:04:05 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 12:42:24 amIf you are making a SoC (not just a multi die package), your already in to at least $500k in costs to get to a prototype in silicon. Not to say you couldn't put an Ip core in FPGA but then the rest still needs custom silicon. If you hybrid this (external arm or arm in FPGA) you may be in for as low as half the cost. Still at 250k up front, I don't think you are too poor to register a business and pay for a simple website.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 01:06:39 am
content: Quote from: garboui on March 30, 2017, 01:04:05 amThe prototype can be as simple as a COTS FPGA dev board, a big breadboard and a lot of leads flying around. And Cortex-M0 isn't that complicated or large in the first place.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 01:08:58 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 12:54:37 amQuick googling advises there are no such ridiculous requirement. Then barely anybody could open sort of small shop in China.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 01:17:03 am
content: Quote from: wraper on March 30, 2017, 01:08:58 amTo open a small shop all you need is a small business license, which is basically a license for you to operate a storefront personally. This license have zero requirements to apply if you claim that you are doing business exclusively online. Legally the small business license does not create a separate entity, and the business is still done between you the human and your customers. If you start a company a separate legal entity is created, and that is where the $100k comes in play. And regardless of what kind of business you are running for a company office space is mandated.In China only companies (the separate legal entity form) can own websites and corporate email systems. My personal website and email is hosted outside of China, in some country that anyone, citizen or not, can have websites operating there, thus not subjected to Chinese laws.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 01:50:05 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 12:54:37 amAll you need is $10 to buy a custom domain. They don't ask for any documents, as long as your email is not @gmail.com, you are fine. They won't give you any support though, that costs money now, no matter what.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 01:55:50 am
content: Quote from: evb149 on March 30, 2017, 01:10:32 amDesignStart Cortex-M0 has one huge advantage over all things mentioned here - it is distributed as a single Verilog file (obfuscated, of course). This thing is ridiculously easy to get going.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 02:02:51 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2017, 01:50:05 amI am going to try if I can find a suitable domain name for this. They also require a valid corporate website which needs a bit of work too.Maybe I should create a website for my ARM-based dev boards (reusing the SushiBits name,) create a website out of it, and request DesignStart that way?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 02:06:48 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 02:02:51 amIf they actually check this, then you know what to do. It is not like it is hard to find a version of DS in shadier parts of the InternetIf you are somewhat serious about releasing a product, you will need a company registered anyway, since fabs don't work with private people either.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 02:29:22 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2017, 02:06:48 amFor early runs, if the soft core can fit in those cheaper FPGAs, I might just build the product with FPGA so it can go live without talking with a fab. (If I remembered correctly, there are local fabs in Shanghai that can make chips for individuals using fairly old technology nodes, probably at a premium.)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 02:49:04 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 02:29:22 amIn this case, I would strongly advice to get a proper license. I'm not even sure if they will let you do this FPGA trick.In any case, for this kind of applications, most FPGA vendors have licensed Cortex-M1 in one way or another. You may have better luck going that route.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 02:57:32 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2017, 02:49:04 amWell I still need an FPGA-based prototype to persuade the investors don't I? The government-backed investors can provide me with office space at reduced rent and a corporate entity if I can get their money, and that money can be used to purchase the proper licenses.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 03:13:02 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 02:57:32 amYes, and FPGA vendors can help you with getting CM1 core. No need to chat with ARM.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 04:22:59 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 30, 2017, 03:07:20 amCan you point me to an microcontroller that external peripherals have direct access to AHB and DMA?If I am cooking my own FPGA or ASIC I can use an AHB to Wishbone bridge and use those free and open source IP cores alongside the Cortex-M0 (or M1) and those cores can have full DMA access.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 04:27:53 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 04:22:59 amYou are asking for really strange things. If you have some specific peripheral you want to show off, then why not have only this peripheral in FPGA and let MCU handle the rest. What does it matter if you use free Wishbone peripherals, or "free" peripherals that come with MCU?If you are building a general purpose MCU, thne you probably don't want to use random peripherals. Your final design will be incoherent mess.And then again, take RISC V core, or any open MIPS core. Investors don't really care what core you use for a prototype.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 07:13:25 am
content: If you need to make a prototype that has an FPGA with an ARM core in it, why not just use an off-the-shelf FPGA that has an ARM core in it?https://www.altera.com/products/soc/overview.html

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 10:11:14 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 30, 2017, 07:13:25 amPoint me to one that don't cost me an arm and a leg to buy a dev kit of. And no I don't need the complexity of the Cortex-AR cores.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 11:49:27 am
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 12:54:37 amMove to the NL where registering a business is free and no location restrictions (unless you work with dangerous stuff, smelly stuff or make lots of noise).

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 11:50:21 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2017, 02:06:48 amIt's hilariously easy to find the core file... and the "obfuscation" is a bit of a joke too. (Then again, I do RE and mostly of the software variety, so it may seem impenetrable to the hardware folks... or it's so easy to determine if you're selling products based on it without paying them, so ARM don't care too much about making it hard to crack.)You can get ASICs made as an individual via MPW services, and if you really needed a whole wafer for the volumes you're paying for, they would probably let you go to the fab directly.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 12:28:45 pm
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 10:11:14 amThere isnt one. Because FPGA+Microcontroller is a big fail. FPGA itself is usually very expensive, restricting the usability to high-end applications. Including a core of a 50 cent microcontroller did not make it viable. If you need an FPGA with a built in microcontroller, build in a microblaze or equivalent. If you need a hybrid system, put there a general FPGA and a microcontroller, preferably some Cortex M4 or better, connect it through whatever.The Cortex A9 + FPGA is viable, since it is a high end product.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 12:50:27 pm
content: I don't know about that. I'd quite like to see a line of FPGAs which have an inexpensive ARM core with a nice fast, direct, low overhead link into some of the FPGA registers. It would be an ideal way to build a hybrid system without wasting FPGA logic on implementing logic that's only required in order to communicate with the CPU.Then again, I'd also like to see a line of FPGAs that offer anything remotely close to the price per unit capability of, say, a Cortex M3 or M4. Considering the amount of logic you get, they're still ridiculously, painfully, unjustifiably expensive. But still really useful.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 01:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 30, 2017, 12:50:27 pmI second that. It would be very sweet to see a FPGA with a built-in ARM Cortex-M4F hanging in there, even though it is up to the FPGA matrix to implement the clock and memory. For open source experiments I can clock it with an onboard PLL, throw in an AHB to Wishbone bridge, a Wishbone DRAM controller (there are way too many FPGA dev kits out there with DRAM hooked to the FPGA) and a Wishbone SPI XIP controller to kickstart the processor. I believe after all this Wishbone circuitry I can still have some room for other peripherals and kits.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 02:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2017, 11:49:27 amHow do I move to NL from China? What kind of legal, financial and social preparation do I need to make?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 04:31:23 pm
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 10:11:14 amHere is one for Altera -https://www.altera.com/products/design-software/design-software/embedded-software-developers/soc-eds/overview.htmlHere is one for MicroSemi -http://soc.microsemi.com/products/ip/search/detail.aspx?id=652Neither of the devices is expensive.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 04:35:07 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 30, 2017, 11:50:21 amIt achieves its goal - you can't easily get the readable Verilog code. And it is hard to tell if there is something there to prevent direct theft (like undocumented register, or behavior quirk).This alone will stop most violators. Lawyers will stop the rest of them.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 04:38:03 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2017, 04:31:23 pmHow do I get access to the IP core in the first place?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 04:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: technix on March 30, 2017, 04:38:03 pmBy installing their tools and adding an instance to the project. They don't give you direct code, you will have to work with encrypted IP and their system builders.They both have plentiful documentation on this, do your research.