What do you want to see discussed here ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 11:05:54 am
content: Over the past few years we have discussed many thermal imaging topics on this forum. There have been reviews and teardowns of many thermal cameras and discussion of modifications to improve them. This is the home of the FLIR E4 upgrade that came out of Mike’s teardown of that camera and commentary on its design. Those were fun timesI still do the odd teardown and offer advice where able and appropriate, as do many others. This is the only Thermal Imaging forum offering access to such a wealth of combined professional knowledge and it is a thing of beauty.I have noted a change over the past two or three years though. The excitement of upgrading a FLIR E4 to a specification well beyond FLIR’s intentions has subsided and that Circa 2013 camera has slid quietly into history as more recent, cheaper, alternatives appear on the market to tempt buyers. The Corona Virus pandemic lead to a huge step forward in affordable thermal imaging equipment for the masses. China instructed its thermal imaging equipment manufacturers to quickly develop systems for the detection of Fever in humans. This they did, and the developments appeared in more affordable general use thermal imaging cameras as well as fever detection systems. A new era of Chinese produced microbolometers that provide decent performance began. As end users we are very fortunate to now have a choice of more affordable thermal imaging equipment. The higher resolution cameras remain quite expensive but sub VGA cameras have never been cheaper or the choice of models so greatComing back to the matter of this wonderful forum, I come from a background where I was fortunate enough to use many different technologies and generations of thermal imaging equipment, from the early AGEMA Thermovision 880 cooled cameras right up to current state of the art thermal imaging used by the military. I consider myself most fortunate to have accumulated a good knowledge of the various technologies, their design and even how to repair them. That knowledge has been shared, where appropriate, but I now see much of it as being less applicable to modern budget thermal imaging systems. Basic physics remains the same but repairing a FLIR PM695 is very different to repairing a Budget Uni-T UTi-260b ! The latter is virtually a disposable piece of electronics due to its relatively low purchase cost. Teardowns ? Is anyone still truly interested in seeing what resides inside a thermal imaging camera ? I suspect the audience on this forum may have changed. People appear, understandably, more interested in how many pixels they can get at the lowest cost and are far less interested in how the manufacturer designed the electronics package within the casing. The question of modifications and upgrades are ever present but these are often firmware modifications so deep knowledge of the cameras electronic design may be less important to those wishing to apply upgrades. We appear to be in the age of ‘black boxes’ just as some Radio Amateurs noted with their equipment. Owners begin to care less about what is inside the casing, or how it works, and judge an equipment only by its performance. This is a fair attitude when you consider that many sophisticated equipments comprise mainly a “System on a Chip” rather than many subsystems communicating with a main operating system board, as used to be the case. A PCB with a smattering of high density IC’s is not very interesting and often considered beyond economic repair if something goes wrong with it. This is a foreign World to me as I was brought up and trained to be curious about how things work, how they fail and how to repair them. I was repairing Betamax and VHS VCR’s (remember those?) as a teenager when a sensible person of that age would have been at the Disco and dating girls! We all make mistakes in lifeSo we are in a very different World to that of only a few years ago where thermal imaging is concerned. You buy a small dongle thermal camera for a few hundred Dollars, slap it in your highly capable mobile phone host and start producing decent thermal images. So what next ? If few people care what is inside the devices or how they work, what is there left to discuss on a technical thermal imaging forum ? You tell meI am thinking that I will no longer document the repair of older generations of thermal camera as they are of less/no interest to the current majority of this forums members and the latest budget camera technology is virtually disposable so there is little point in documenting the designs or their repair, if such is even viable these days. What is left to discuss then ? We have already covered close-up lenses, PCB analysis, supplemental telephoto lenses, interpretation of specifications and created a gallery for sharing thermal images. I fear this thermal imaging forum will begin to stagnate as a result of the changes in the market that we have recently seen. You no longer have to buy an older camera and service it, or adapt a camera that was built into a larger system, you just go on Banggood and buy an Infiray P2 or one of the other inexpensive cameras that China now produces. For me, that is not as much fun as we had in the old days of repairing and adapting equipment out of necessity as no cheap options existed.The end scenes of the film Bladerunner still resonate with me. I am in my mid Fifties, have seen and learnt much, yet it is becoming less relevant by the day and when I leave, it will be lost forever.https://youtu.be/HU7Ga7qTLDUIt is at times like this that I miss my chats with my good friend Giles (Ultrapurple). RIP mate.I look forward to hearing others views on this matterFraser

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 12:19:07 pm
content: I browse the forum on the daily, but pretty much don't look into most threads that talk about the same handful of rebranded products. To meconsumer products seem the least interesting.My favorite posts are any kind of DIY project, the more ambitious the better. I am in it for the art and fun of the medium, not interested in any of the measurement aspects. while I enjoy reading about cutting edge technology and all the smart sensor tech, I don't disregard the history. Same with visible photography in a way. I even have a collection of old cameras and old mediums.Lenses and optical solutions are still some of the interesting bits that pop up every few months. And finally I am getting more and more into the software and processing side of things. This forum exposed me to some really interesting concepts and I am close to finishing my bachelor's and then moving onto a master programme that might get me closer to some of the long term goals I set.I don't want to discourage any contribution. Some threads might not get a lot of replies and discussion, but there is readers.

author: tomasis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 12:35:26 pm
content: i think diy stuff one makes based on broken bad-ass thermal cameras from Ebay would be interesting. The build should be on budget 250-300 because people would not be bothered otherwise.I think we need a detailed list of available stuff/mods/articles (sticky?) so I dont need hunt and collect info. I have a 3d printer so custom cases are no problem.At the beginning, I thought Lepton were cool but i realized it is way too low rez or neither high fps.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 12:56:36 pm
content: Good points alreadySadly (for me anyway) I can see this forum becoming just a stream of questions asking which is the best thermal camera below $X and which is the best cheap camera for X use. There will be the interesting posts on user software developments to improve performance, but the days of teardowns and articles on more expensive cameras may well be coming to an end. Even a faulty industrial/professional thermal camera still commands decent money and I can see why there would be little interest in buying such or seeing how to repair them.This forum could well become more like the general photographic forums where people discuss new product releases, test real World performance and discussions on which cameras offer the best bang per Buck. There is no harm in that path but it will not be of great interest to me as a tech. A forum is what it’s membership wants of it.Regarding optics …. I 100% agree. It would be great to see some articles on creating useable thermal camera lens systems that do not cost a small fortune. Sadly some of the required optical elements can be quite expensive though. I am not an expert in optics so any discussions on that topic are of great interest to me, and hopefully others.Fraser

author: Lambda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 02:04:55 pm
content: Hello.First of all, thank you Fraser for pointing the current aspect of this forum.I am a recent member and thermal newbie for sure, so will not comment nothing about the large historical background here (Pythagore asked his students to study in strict silence during at least 5 years before daring to express a question... i talked already too much and too early....)But for sure, what you mention, i witness it regularly on some astro forums which is more and more a kind of "hotline" for after or pre sale projects than anything else.Forum IMHO should be a gigantic evolving true learning platform combining academic and experimental points of view...What i would see is clearly more:- (1) DIY projects, of any kind of levels, just each of us doing his best at his level.... Imaging any kind of thermal systems, parts, sub-parts, using craps, scavenging parts from improbable items having perhaps no link with the thermal world, 3D printing, epoxy, tape, soldering....... Using whatever his available on our individual scale.... Old military tech from E-Bay or physical fleamarket, stuffs from sites like in the Bill's one.... Digging for adapting optical materials, comparing, testing, reporting even roughly, but at least keeping written/image/video traces of what we do.....Developing softwares/apps (beyond my humble knowledge....). Probably nowday 99% useless for the community because of the existing ready to use/plug and play commercial solutions? yes, but it remains the 1 %......- (2) DIY projects for budget reasons..... Thermal items/optics are expensive..... If not passionated by the science and tech by themselves, at least promoting alternative solutions for Budget reason... "We do not have money, but ideas..." GO TO (1)- (3) DIY projects for potential discovery..... Some gems are hidden in mud, time to time..... GO TO (1) !!!!Perhaps i am expressing here myself a bit drastically... Of course everything is a question of compromise, acceptance, tolerance.... It is just a personal think/feeling i am daring to share in this post, something coming from my guts....Thank you to all the Seniors here having shared and still sharing your knowledge with us.Multi-spectrally yours...Stéphane

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 11:31:33 am
content: Well the response to my question seems pretty muted compared to the number of reads. Maybe that suggests that this forum has already become a place to just ask about “best bang for Buck and cheapest” rather than a place of technical discussion regarding thermal imaging technology and effective use of it ? I have already decided to stop documenting repairs to older thermal cameras, and recent posts on this forum are not the sort that I can help with. The market is currently flush with cameras that are built around the Infiray S0, Tiny-1, Guide Sensmart TIMO and Hikvision budget cores and I already own several examples. None interest me greatly and they are of similar performance. I am seeing a worrying trend on the thermal imaging forum of excitably worded recommendations for Infiray cameras….not that they are not good, but I detect the possibility that they are coming from a party with a vested interest in the products sales ! That may be just me though. I hope that this situation does not become spamming of the forum through sock puppets.Well I have much to do and will keep a watch on this excellent forum but I fear it will have less of interest to me in the future if current activity is anything to go by. I miss my conversations with Giles (Ultrapurple), and other very knowledgeable people, about the technology and it’s history. There has to be an interesting technical post to bring these people out of the shadows to make comment ! I will likely go to direct conversations via email instead.I remain available to help those who need assistance or advice on the older thermal imaging camerasTo end on a positive note, as I expected, I am seeing some excellent deals on both new and used surplus thermal imaging technology that was produced for fever detection during the pandemic. Fever detection using thermal cameras requires great temperature measurement accuracy. This has lead to thermal camera systems that claim to offer better than +/-0.5C measurement accuracy. This may be of interest to those needing such accuracy, but over a limited temperature range. Such technology is also perfect for wildlife observation as it is ‘tuned’ for detecting warm blooded mammalsSome of these fever detection cameras would make great projects, especially for the investigation of how the great measurement accuracy is achieved and for firmware modifications to make them more useful in generic use. For thermal imaging technology experimenters, the future could be brightTTFNFraser

author: ArsenioDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 01:52:44 pm
content: Fraser, I've got some fun stuff in the works coming soon of adapting and modifying old eBay scores and rescues. My best friend's truck is getting a more modern FLIR installation next year and there are orbital rocket tracking systems coming down the pipe. Biggest annoyance right now is getting zoom/long focal length lenses for not three left nuts. Also, been analyzing russian systems forvarious reasonsand am not too impressed by their tech.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 03:02:40 pm
content: Thanks ArsenioDev,That is the sort of stuff that I have loved coming here to read about. I love to see what other experimenters are working on, their challenges, successes and even failures…. We can learn from failures too. I may be looking through rose tinted glasses but I thought this specialist forum had more ‘adventures’ and interesting discussions of the technology. Ben321 used to raise some interesting questions that could stimulate much greater discussion beyond the original question. I have learnt a lot from others on this forum, with a special mention to Bill_W who I consider a good friend. It may be just me feeling melancholy after a rubbish year and the recent loss of our Queen, but I have started to wonder why I bother to post anything here as the majority of current active members have a focus on the latest budget cores and cameras coming out of Asia. I can totally understand why this is happening, but those cores are not actually that special, except for their affordable price. As I have already said, I started to see this forum becoming just another “where can I buy the best bang for Buck camera” places. Great for the person asking as many will help in the decision making process, but the OP will buy their new toy and then what ? Such discussions are understandable and welcome but I like to see some more technical discussions and sharing of knowledge as well. There is not much you can say about an S0, Tiny-1 or TIMO core…. It is virtually a SOC.Hope we see more interesting discussions that involve some of the very knowledgeable and experienced members of this forum but if the forum becomes basically a budget camera review site, I think they will drift away, that is, if they have not already done so. There was little to no interest in the wacky design of the Electrophysics HotShot, little interest in the FLIR A20 and, surprisingly, no interest in the FOTRIC 226b that I recently detailed and is becoming available at affordable prices. A brand new $4K+ camera selling for less than 10% of that cost and zero discussion about itI even tried to stimulate some discussion about camera case formats in that FOTRIC post …… nothing, nada, niks, nenio, rien, nichts, eckert, nihil, dim byd, nic …. You get the idea !It seems this forums members are just not that interested in that sort of post anymore. Many just want to buy a brand new camera for a certain use and want to know what the best on offer is at the lowest price. A fair question but, to me, a dead end thread.Fraser

author: ArsenioDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 03:50:45 pm
content: Yeah there's definitely a "oo shiny and cheap" of the modern gen chinese cores, but damn the older ones can be KILLER and often have far nicer ROICs and pixel designs for interesting applications. I'm a fan of learning what I can from the old as it is useful to build the understanding.That Fotric was interesting but was not as interested as my current form factor focus is smaller cores as I am working on a binocular fused hyperspectral goggle system with bandpass filters to lock in on wavelength regions of specific interest. Huge handheld units are not the way to go for that and the disappointing Bosons are out of my price range, so I snagged a pair of matched chinese VGA cores out of fever cameras, got all the doc package and am now slowly working on the video pathing.

author: Logan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 04:00:12 pm
content: Hi Fraser, I was about to reply your A20 post, but I think I would do it here.I was about to ask why you want to quit, and now I'm surprised about the reason.I'm also not interested in those "which to buy" questions, and even reported several Chinese spammers/advertisers to mods.Although it's your own decision, I (and maybe others) would be sad if you go.I'm newly registered, but I've watched you and Bill's posts for many years before. Not replying don't mean we are not finding them interesting.There are still thoughtful people here, and I think it's worth posting your interesting new findings, even just for documentary purpose.Don't let those low quality posts bother your mind, just ignore them.I rarely post non-technical discussions, but I think it's an exception this time.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 09:05:33 am
content: I don't want to came across as gate keeping, but perhaps getting a single megathread per product would help. As a lot of posts seem redundant at times. We had the idea of making a large spreadsheet a few times and it never got anywhere. Without anyone motivated enough to spearhead such an endeavor it won't get nowhere. There clearly are new posters which act as if they are affiliated with certain resellers, and I don't believe it's disclosed correctly as the forum rules require.I do like to look at various pictures and read posts, but if I don't actively have anything to add to the discussion... I simply don't.Perhaps it's time to write a reference book on the history of the technologies and highlighting key products that shaped the industry? To write about the artistic use of thermal imaging equipment has been on my 2022 goals since January. But I haven't even contributed to the forum post the whole year.

author: Hawaka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 11:25:19 am
content: One thing I would like to see more is what do you do with thermal cameras. Looking at random stuff around the house or at PCB is ok, but for sure there are more applications or experiments that use them.What are they, how have you used your camera in a "non-standard" way ?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 12:18:03 pm
content: In a perfect world you find a set of sticky posts at the top of the thermal imaging forum, titles that come to mind are……1. What is thermal imaging and what can it be used for ?2. What specifications are important when selecting a thermal imaging camera and what do they mean ?3. To buy new or used …. The pros and cons of both4. How to obtain a thermal imaging capability at the lowest cost - Pros and Cons of this approach5. Current popular thermal imaging cameras with detailed capabilities and prices. Look here before asking !6. Useful information for those new to thermal imaging - emissivity etc.7. DIY accessories for thermal imaging cameras including close-up lenses8. Using thermal Imaging for PCB analysis, what is needed and what may be achievedI think that gives you an idea of what I mean. The problem is that you need “audience participation” to create such useful stickies. It would be a lot of work for one person to create a comprehensive set of documents and posts in the above categories. I have created such posts in the past for this forum and it takes a lot of time to do it properly. I am not in a position to volunteer that much time to this forum anymore.We must also consider the “Google effect”. It is not uncommon for people to visit a forum and use it like Google. This is understandable in this age of “instant answers” via search engines. By this I mean, some visitors to the forum will not want to Research information sources or guides to select the best thermal imaging tool for their needs They will just raise a new post detailing their need and request the best and cheapest thermal camera that will meet their needs. Simple and quick, requiring little knowledge or effort on their part….similar to Googling eh ? The problem with such posts is the repetition and eventually people will stop responding to such requests or become tired of them. This can make for a decline in a forum. The signal to noise ratio needs to be adequate to keep people coming back to a forum if they want to learn about a topic. If all they see is discussion on "best bang for Buck". The forum quickly becomes boring to a large number of members as they are wishing to learn from, or be entertained by posts.I am not the person to spearhead an effort to revitalise a forums content. Yes I could do it, but I simply have too many other draws on my time. I raised this topic in an effort to get people talking about what they want from this forum and whether it needs any changes to its content. I will contribute to this forum in any way that I can, within reason, but the membership need to say what they want from it. If the majority want what is basically a new equipment review site, so be it. If knowledge is desired in certain specialist areas of thermography, such as Lock-In thermography, that could also be accommodated. If basic thermography knowledge and skills are desired, there are plenty of thermographers here to assist. If no one says what they want, then how is anyone to create valid content ? Hence this thread ! Some people say they cannot answer my question because they do not know what they do not know. I understand that, but what are you using a thermal camera for and what difficulties are you experiencing doing so ? No one is born a thermographer so there may be a place for some good guidance on this forum. As you learn about thermography, you realise what a large topic it truly is and more questions and discussions follow. It is a sort of self authoring training course over time:) If no one raises topics for conversation except “what is the best cheapest camera and where do I buy it” I see this excellent forum withering away as those with knowledge lose interest in it.Anyway, these are just the thoughts of one Thermal Imaging Fan and I feel sure there are other viewpoints on this matter. This may be the thread in which to express those thoughts maybe ?Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 12:52:25 pm
content: Examples of past threads that I produced to assist the forum membership are linked here. I produced them to help fellow forum members rather than to just take knowledge from this forum without giving back something in return.I created a "Useful information" thread for the FLIR E4 as, at the time, there were common questions with which I could assist, or other members useful information that was buried deep in the very large E4 review thread. This "useful information" thread died with the E4 becoming less relevant on this forum and is, itself, buried in the historic posts of this forum. Some of the content is relevant to modern thermal imaging cameras though.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/msg332104/#msg332104I also created a thread that contains an inventory of the thermal imaging cameras, accessories and software that I own. That inventory of equipment is the result of many years mispent searching eBay and buying a great deal of equipment. I was a self confessed Thermal Imaging Equipment addict ! I am now reformed and only buy the occasional piece that is of significant interest to me ! Now that I am no longer in full time employment, buying "toys" for the fun of it has had to stop. This inventory was not meant as a source of bragging rights, it was there so that visitors to the forum searching for information on a particular camera, accessory or lens, could find my thread and see that someone here owned the item that they needed information about. I have had a lot of messages asking me for help with equipment listed in my inventory. Once again, I had a desire to help fellow forum members with no reward expected. That is the attitude needed amongst forum members to make a forum really special. If it becomes a place where people just "take" and only want a fast answer to tehri question about buying cheap cameras without ever intending to return to the forum to report their experiences in thermography, the forum loses something special.This is the newest version of my Inventory that I keep updated:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/frasers-thermal-camera-collection-the-definitive-list-regularly-updated/msg3025468/#msg3025468The original 2016 Inventory thread that I abandoned to history in order to produce a better version:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/frasers-thermal-camera-collection-the-list-!/msg937765/#msg937765Fraser

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 01:33:41 pm
content: I do study computational linguistics and have a limited understanding of how the automated question answering systems work. Google especially has some great models they employ. While they don't share the details of models they actively use for search, it must be similar to their T5 general purpose language model. Having a FAQ thread will common answers or links to good resources would be great. It might even end up in the training data for google, so it can extract answers for search prompts directly.The catalog of questions above seems like a good start.A bunch of great threads get buried without active discussions. So having some sort of directory might be better than relying on search.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2022, 01:42:31 pm
content: Yes many posts that may contain useful information get lost in the mists of time on this forum.I have even considered copying all my technical posts from many years membership here to another location where it is easily found. Having just reviewed some of my past posts and teardowns, I still find the information I imparted useful and I even search for my own teardowns on this forum when wanting to remind myself of a particular detail or part number ! Earlier today I needed the part number of a Janos MWIR lens used on the FLIR SC4000 and I found it in seconds by searching this forum for my SC4000 review. That was only because I knew what to search for though. I may yet harvest my own posts from this forum but fear not, I will not be deleting anythingFraser

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 03:44:55 pm
content: I read this forum several times a week and I appreciate a lot of the posts, even if I don't chime in. I've learned a lot and I enjoy your teardowns, Fraser. I just don't have anything intelligent to add to your posts.My interests are in the DIY. Especially making radiometric data available to people for uses other than the traditional "thermal imaging camera" market. I've been playing a lot with the Lepton and have designed several open-source cameras with it (hardware + firmware) and written a ton of software. I'm now playing with the Infiray Tiny1C core. I choose these cores because they are inexpensive and let me design systems that people can (more-or-less) afford. I don't talk too much about my work here because I've gotten the definite feeling that these low-end cores and uses outside the traditional market are not interesting to people here. So it's a mostly RO place for me. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate it though.

author: ArsenioDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 03:58:41 pm
content: I'm EXTREMELY interested in ratiometric and beyond use of the small cores, there's projects in the works that really could use the tiny units (probably removing lenses for reasons).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 04:13:10 pm
content: Globoy,ANY project involving thermal imaging cores is of great interest to me. It the buying a "black box" that becomes a little less interesting. I take my hat off to anyone who has the skills to experiment and build camera systems with the available cores, budget or expensive. Both impress me when used as part of a projectI have lots of FLIR One Gen 2 cameras collecting duct in a cupboard. I have been thinking of ways to make use of their Lepton cores as they are not of great interest to me in their current format and need repair anyway. The Lepton core is a very clever bit of miniaturisation and the new cores from Infiray and Guide Sensmart have just take that ingenuity further which is great for us allDo consider sharing your projects on this forum as I feel sure there will be those of us who love the technology that will be interestedThere are other thermal camera designers on this forum as well so you might even be able to discuss any issues with them, if appropriate. It is the reduction in posts about camera teardowns, builds, experiments and general general technical discussions that I am missing on this Thermal Imaging forum at the moment.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 04:17:44 pm
content: My FOTRICS 226b arrived today. It is a very interesting camera that I intend to use for more artistic thermal imagery and not radiometric work, though it is capable of such. It will also be great for wildlife and cat photography in my gardenI am very happy with my purchasePictures have been added to my thread here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/the-story-of-a-canon-g5-digital-camera-and-a-fotric-200-series-thermal-camera-)/msg4423027/#msg4423027Fraser

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 04:47:38 pm
content: Ok, thanks Fraser and ArsenioDev. I'll try to be better about contributing.I wish I had known about this forum when I started. My travails with the Lepton are documented on the hackaday.io website (https://hackaday.io/project/159615-lepton-35-thermal-imaging-camera) and my most developed design, the tCam-Mini, is documented on github (https://github.com/danjulio/lepton/tree/master/ESP32). I have been working with the folks at GroupGets who build and sell it for me (also, I've always been hesitant about appearing like I'm only interested in promoting my board for people to buy here. I make a few bucks on each sale but I'm definitely not getting rich with these boards. It's just a way to make them available to people without the pain of building them myself). However at the risk of self-promoting, tCam-Mini would be a way to use up your Lepton 3 and 3.5's from your old Flir dongles, Fraser :-)I am actually a bit excited about the Tiny1C. It's fun to be free of the 9FPS limitation and it seems to generate nice images. But it's also interesting to be a Westerner who is finding the "shoe on the other foot" regarding having to translate documentation and grok some design philosophy that isn't necessarily rooted in western ways of doing things. Plus being told by one of their engineers that I wasn't ready for some technical information yet (I guess based on my questions to him I have more basic functionality to learn before I'm allowed the keys to accurate radiometric data).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 05:23:23 pm
content: Having been on the inside of a project that uses the Infiray S0, I know exactly what you mean about having to get used to Chinese SDK’s, datasheets and development assistance ! Western SDK’s are better formed and I can advise that even Chinese hardware and software developers have trouble with their fellow countrymens SDK’s and datasheets ! Having said that, I also have experience of Seek Thermal SDK’s and datasheets….. they can be just as challenging at times and Seek Thermal just as difficult to communicate with and we share the same language ! They all have their little trade secrets that they jealously protect. With the S0 it is the measurement temperature range of the core…. Whilst it normally comes able to measure up to around 120 Celsius, it is capable of 450 Celsius … if you know how to tell it to go into its low sensitivity, high temperature, range. It has a bug in that process though and you cannot go from low sensitivity to high sensitivity range without a reset of the core.https://www.infiray.com/products/s0-series-long-wave-infrared-sensor-module.htmlThat tidbit of information might be of interest to Infiray T2L owners as that camera is just a S0 core in a cosmetic casing.Fraser

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 07:41:03 pm
content: QuoteOk, now that's interesting! Thank you for that hint.You are right that they have their little secrets. If you can say, did you ever see source for their libirtemp library? Or did you get them to compile a platform-specific version for you? Lots of magic seems to occur in this code.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2022, 09:33:36 pm
content: Hi,When I got to the project all that had been already done. I was more involved with hardware.Fraser

author: dalittle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 05:53:39 am
content: Fraser:As you know, I’m new to this forum but have been lurking for quite a while. Personally, I especially like the teardowns as they are hugely entertaining to me. It is what brought me to this forum in the first place. I also lurk on mikeselectricstuff on youtube and am very entertained by the humor intertwined with technical prowess. What makes it entertaining is that you – and mike – and Bill - have expert knowledge. It would not be entertaining if you got most of it wrong.I very much appreciate what you do. I also appreciate Bill and his decades of thermal imaging experience in what was the visionary leader of firefighting TICs, EEV/MAT/e2v. There are many other knowledgeables on this board as well. If you left the board, or minimized your input, I believe that would cascade to others and the board would eventually fail.I don’t know of any other forum with this kind of expertise in thermal imaging; would love to see it continue as it was. I am personally more interested in pixel pitch rather than pixel count. Pitch is associated with really cool engineering.Anyway, my two cents worth.Cheers,David

author: tomasis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 10:26:35 am
content: Quote from: globoy on September 23, 2022, 04:47:38 pmI accept that old expensive cameras can be bad idea to make projects of.Though small projects are very interesting especially with cheap parts like Lepton and Tiny1C. I looked at GroupGets a while for my first therm camera but gave up due lack of 25hz or price then I did go for a cheap Uni-T camera.I think it is great to source Chinese parts and start projects like Arduino, Raspberry or small boards here. I have some ideas how implement thermal camera as part of the smart home like security camera or to trigger a function based on reading of thermal image, for example.I have not found Tiny1C for sale so far.

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2022, 04:17:45 pm
content: QuoteI had to reach out to them directly and if I create a "product" (e.g. maker level sales) I figure I'll have to be the one buying and stocking it (and deal with export regulations).It does appear that Infiray is a "Marketplace" distributor at Digi-Key and have their MINI256 and MINI384 cameras there.

author: IR_Geek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 12:27:22 am
content: Don't give up Fraser! I could mostly care less on most of the small commercial uncooled cores flooding the market. Really interesting but realistically most of them are 'sufficient' for most applications as long as they put a decent optic on them. Assuming equal cores, then it's all about the aperture ... I can catch more raindrops in a bucket then I can with a shot glass.While I don't post as much as I would like, I still enjoy reading through the discussions and contributing when I can. Usually by the time I get to read the forum, there has already been a good bit of back and forth with helpful info already provided. Usually just interject if something needs clarifying or explained in my own southern mountain boy way.

author: IR_Geek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 12:48:59 am
content: To clarify and expand... I don't hate uncooled, just the same question of 'what is cheapest' with most asking not even considering the optic at all.To me that is like asking for the most aerodynamic car without asking about the engine. A total lack of pulling down a book or data mining tons of good (free) papers before taking the easy out. A library card can go a long way ... wait, do those even exist anymoreAs for what to see discussed: Really enjoy the history of IR companies and the tear down of all the cameras. Mostly the cooled systems, but the shear magnitude of the uncooled used in all the hand held fire fighting equipment is staggering. The design choices forced by the harsh environments are very interesting. The 'discovery' of what core is inside.