Help finding a beginner bench multimeter   - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 09:16:53 pm
content: Hello everyone, and thank you for your help!.I am looking for my first bench Multimeter, I am studying electronics and working on Pro Audio projects.Currently i have Fluke 117 and i would like to add a bench type.My budget is in the 300$-400$ range.4.5 digitsDual DisplayWas thinking about the GW-Insteak 8341 or the Siglent SDM3054X. GW feels like a more quality build (Made in Taiwan) but the Siglent have a big screen.i have no experience with any of them.If you can share your experience or recommend other models it will be great.Thank you for your helpTom

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 10:05:58 pm
content: Would you consider used?

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 10:44:52 pm
content: HiYes, used can be an option as well.I have a narrow time frame, will be in the US in about 2 weeks for a week.I think it will be hard to find a good second hand quickly. And I won't be able to test it until I am back home.Tom

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 10:53:47 pm
content: I know the SDM3045X and this works quite well and comes with a lot of nice features such as histogram, graph, etc.).4.5 digits is usually enough and as this SDM3045X is a 60.000 count model, it will show you a 5.9999 volt value with the exact same value/digits as e.g. a 5.5 digit DMM with 200.000 counts. Though a 1.5 volt value will be shown with one more digit on the 5.5 digit DMM.Edit: Corrected the accidentally mistyped model number (was SDM3054X)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 11:06:04 pm
content: Let's get the model # correct; SDM3045X = 4 1/2 digits and fits budget.What is has over the GW is 4 wire measurement capability.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 11:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: Tomer on February 12, 2018, 10:44:52 pmNot in the US (Buy It Now listings).If you've friends or family here, you could go ahead and have it shipped to their address, and it will be waiting for you. Sellers may also be willing to work with you if you'll be staying in a hotel (not hard to arrange, as this is common for business customers).In regard to a bench DMM, aside from not requiring batteries, they're usually selected for greater accuracy and/or resolution (5.5 digit or better).Given your stated specs, you might want to look at aGW Instek GDM-8251A(5.5 digit/120k counts, dual display, and a very nice set of features). They're up quite a bit from when they first came out (~$80 shipped then vs. ~$210 in excellent condition now), but they're still a good deal IMHO.Another would be aFluke 45(5 digit/100k counts, dual display). Similar money, but fewer features.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 12:21:38 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 12, 2018, 11:47:13 pm+1 for the GW Instek GDM-8251A. I bought mine for $90 USD shipped, should have bought 2 at that price. I'm happy with my 2 HP 3466A meters but I kick myself now for only buying 1.

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 12:25:11 am
content: Sorry for that mistake, the correct model is SDM3045X.I don't know what is a 4 wire capabilitiy ?Thank you!

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 12:31:55 am
content: Thank you for suggesting second hand modelsI will do my resarch on them.Would you go for a siglent only beacuse of the big screen ?Is it that important.Tom

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 01:08:18 am
content: Quote from: Tomer on February 13, 2018, 12:25:11 amSimply it's done using Kelvin clips for better accuracy:Thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/franky's-kelvin-clip-kit/Quote from: Tomer on February 13, 2018, 12:31:55 amDepends largely on your workspace and bench.If your eyesight is regressing and/or you need to see the display at distance then the Siglent display has very good visibility. 2m+ easy as the contrast is great.Thread on all the SDM3000X models:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-new-bench-dmm-sdm3055/

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 01:18:22 am
content: Quote from: Tomer on February 13, 2018, 12:25:11 amThe short answer is the additional pair of wires in a 4 wire sense results in greater accuracy. It does this by eliminating both lead and contact resistance by separating the voltage and current.There's more info on Wiki if you're interested (here).Quote from: Tomer on February 13, 2018, 12:31:55 amI wouldn't go for the Siglent as you can get more for your money (well, closer to half the Siglent actually making others an even better deal).The particular model Siglent you're looking at is more akin to a decent handheld with a nice screen (minus the need for batteries). You can even get additional features in a handheld (i.e.Keysight U1252B).For disclosure, I own both the U1252B and the 8251A. Everything has its compromises, and these meet my needs. And I suspect a lot of others as well based on other threads.If you discover a handheld (or multiples) would be good to have say in combination with the GW Instek, Brymen makes some really good meters (check out TME.eu). Plenty of information here in the forum, and some YT videos as well. TheBM-829is a great DMM (9999 counts; includes built-in logging), but if you're set on 4.5 digits/60k counts, theBM-867orBM-869would absolutely be worth examining. All the Brymens listed have dual displays.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 01:38:23 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 13, 2018, 01:18:22 amA very succinct explanation and if you are looking at getting a bench meter, I would recommend you have a read of some of the material so you understand what it can give you.Four wire measurement capability isn't essential to have - but having it is never a bad thing.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 06:58:00 am
content: Maybe you want to consider a 34401A. Imho one of the best 6 1/2 digit bench multimeters. And you can get it used in good condition to a reasonable price.For example this one (no affiliation to the seller):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-agilentkeysight-34401a-multimeter-with-bk-precision-probes/

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 11:21:20 am
content: Guys,Thank you very much for all the great details in that thread.1) Explaining to me what is a "4 Wire" and giving me additional reading sources !2) Adding second hand and combination options !very usefulTom

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 01:38:00 pm
content: 4 wire measurement is only applicable to measuring low value (<1 OHm) resistors.If you are into audio then also check the AC frequency range. Most handheld DMMs for example are optimised for 50/60Hz and are inaccurate beyond that. For completeness I would suggest to look at the Vici VC8145 as well. You can buy 2 for your budget and it has all the bells and whistles.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 01:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: BU508A on February 13, 2018, 06:58:00 amIt is IMHO as well.Unfortunately however, it doesn't have a dual display which is why I left it out (those that do usually have a button labelled2ND). I even double checked the manual, and didn't see any mention of it.But of the OP will reconsider that feature on a bench meter, the 34401A would make an excellent addition.Admittedly though, a dual display is really nice to have (dual color VFD on the 8251A = drool worthy).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 04:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 13, 2018, 01:40:20 pmNo it doesn't. It can't measure capacitance, frequency or temperature and the current is limited to only 3A.

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 05:01:39 pm
content: Thank you guys for additional ideas!I think i will try to hunt for a second hand GDM-8251A.After reading all the comments I would like to adjust my initial question. thinking on adding 100$ to my budget and take a new 5.5 Multimeter.Any suggestions here ?1) The Siglent SDM3055 is not "X" series if i understand correctly this is an older model ?2) The Rigol looks really conformable with all the buttons in the front, but I believe Rigol will change the model soon for a larger screen type, what do you think ?3) Taking a GDM-8351Thank youTom

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 05:57:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 13, 2018, 04:58:46 pmMy appologies.I tend to think in terms of voltage resolution at 6.5 digits, as the other features you mention are usually covered by other equipment (handheld DMM's, counter, and LCR meter).This is one of the reasons I suggested the OP consider multiple DMM's. Or, though not previously mentioned, a DER EE DE-5000 if it turns out an LCR is needed).Quote from: Tomer on February 13, 2018, 05:01:39 pmWhat's the particular need/usage you'll be doing now and in the near future?I ask, as the majority of cases can be accomplished with a 6000 count meter. Quite a few decent ones out there, and they're no where near as expensive as you've been looking to spend.Much smarter to buy what you need, and use the surplus for other tools or parts you do need. For example, the Uni-T UT-139C is a 6000 count meter that comes with a nice set of features/functions (i.e. True RMS, diode, capacitance, temperature, duty cycle, VFD, and NCV). You can get oneshippedto Israel for $29.99 (here). This one also has decent protections in it, which is why it gets recommended a lot (safe enough you'd be able to test mains with it).Quote from: Tomer on February 13, 2018, 05:01:39 pm1. No, it's not an X model. But it's still the current model for the 5.5 digit market segment ATM. There's the GDM8355A as well, which adds GPIB communications. I did find a page for an SDM3055X-E on their asian site (translated version), but no images; so it's coming, but I've not seen any anticipated release dates, prices, ...So unless the new feature/s is/are something you absolutely cannot live without or do another way with the previous model (i.e. import .csv into a spreadsheet to graph it), I'd say skip it as you can get the GW Instek 8251A for less than half of the current SDM3055 (I'd expect a bit of a price increase with the 3055X-E when it's released).2. No idea. DMM's are a mature product line, so don't change as quickly as other products. So it's just a matter of a new feature hear and there, usually software based IME.3. Change brand & Model numbers, but it still comes back to making better use of your budget; get used whenever possible and use the remaining funds elsewhere.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 07:42:18 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 13, 2018, 05:57:42 pmThat's not entirely accurate.SDM3055 as an existing model when X series instruments where released was retained in its original formexceptfor the feet/bumpers/horns that are all different in X models than previously. Also minor front panel graphic changes over early versions.At this time SDM3055 has not been given an X identifier but it's been updated with the external changes of X models. I got one of the early 3055's as my demo unit and it was indeed externally different to units I buy now.I can't see the Chinese version SDM3055X-E being released to western markets.Tomer, I quite understand your wish for a bench DMM rather than another handheld.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 08:34:41 pm
content: So you're saying the only difference is cosmetics?I'd have thought the diode test function would be updated as it has with the 3045X and 3065X (0 - 4V instead of 2V fixed).Based on a model by model comparison on Siglent.com, have the math functions decreased on the X models or just not as fully written out as is the case with the 3055?My apologies for not being up to date with Siglent's DMM's, but I'm not in need of any right now.I have checked out the latest 4ch. X series oscilloscopes out of curiosity, as well as the newer X series AWG's (which is on my wish list).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 08:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 13, 2018, 08:34:41 pmLatest SDM3055 datasheet:http://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDM3055_DataSheet_DS06035-E03D.pdfDiode Test: Adjustable range is 0 - 4V

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 08:45:14 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 13, 2018, 08:38:50 pmThanks.So no discernible differences at all. Wonder why not just add X to the model number?

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 11:13:56 pm
content: Guys, can't thank you enough for all the details and patience for the questions.QuoteI think all this bench Multimeters are above what i need or know at this moment, I am doing fine with my Fluke 117. I do want bench for no Battery ! Ease of use and bigger + Dual display.The rate and number of digits are more an assumption for the future.I think i have enough information to decide on a device!Thank you allTom

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 12:00:08 am
content: Don't forget North America is 110V. Make sure whatever you get will also work at 220V.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 12:28:06 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on February 14, 2018, 12:00:08 amGood point.The GW Instek 8251A will work ~100 - 250VAC, and the Siglent SDM3055 uses a selector switch (just set it prior to plugging it in).Tomer, seriously the 8251A will do what you're looking for without spending a lot; it's really that nice (only reason they're as inexpensive as they are is ITT shut down and the market was flooded). I'd suggest not to over think this one and go for it (it's even cheaper than the Brymen BM-869).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 11:47:58 am
content: For audio work, you may want to consider the Keithley 2015. It’s not dual display, but it has THD measurement for audio.

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 04:18:03 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on February 14, 2018, 12:00:08 amYes spending my time between USA and Israel its a headache with the differences in outlets and volts.

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 04:20:19 pm
content: QuoteThat's my number 1 option right now !

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 09:28:09 pm
content: Can it be ?, No capacitance.http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/products/Discontinued_Products/Discontinued_Meters_LCR/GDM-8251ATom

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 11:55:56 pm
content: Quote from: Tomer on February 14, 2018, 09:28:09 pmUnfortunately it doesn't. But this is where other equipment comes in to pick up where a particular bit of gear falls short for you (compromise bit).Better yet, it can be less expensive to do things this way, depending on what you need in terms of range and accuracy. For example, the Uni-T UT139C includes capacitance for all of $30 shipped to your home (no need to worry about airline restrictions). So do other handheld DMM's, which are typically less expensive for the features vs. bench meters.But perhaps the ranges in a DMM isn't quite sufficient (or you need inductance and/or better range/accuracy for resistance).At which point an LCR meter would be the right tool for the job, and more cost effective as well with a DER EE DE-5000. Not much more than a decent dedicated ESR meter (not enclosure-less projects).Also keep in mind that LCR meters generally have a wider range and better accuracy (4 wire measurements across the board) as that's specifically what they're made for.In the case of the DE-5000, take a look at the following (from themanual):Just in case you're not aware, the max value of 200mF = 200,000uF, so handy for large caps you might use for audio work.Pricing for LCR + TL-21 & TL-22 test fixtures:Amazon(US to US) = $132.88 shipped (scroll down and it'll show the meter + fixtures)eBay(Japan to Israel) = $133.97 shipped (price includes LCR + both test fixtures)One thing to note about this unit (and many others), is there's no input protection whatsoever. So make sure any capacitor you hook up is dischargedpriorto attaching it to the LCR meter (will save your meter and a lot of swearing).In short, it will be useful for audio IMHO (LCR with a sweeping AC signal would be even better, but is way out of your listed budget as they go for ~$2K or so last I checked). And at a budget of $500, you'll still have ~$150 left over after buying both the 8251A linked and the DE-5000.Brief article that might be of some help in figuring out what the above measurements are (How to Use an LCR Meter).Oh, this particular LCR meter has a USB & Software kit available as well as an AC power adapter. Not quite a bench unit in terms of form factor, but is in terms of features. And the reduced footprint on the bench is nice bonus IME.Hope this helps.

author: Tomer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 10:08:13 am
content: This is more than help, your posts are gold.Thank you so much!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 05:16:56 pm
content: You're welcome.Figured you might not know where to start based on the OP, and as you're on a deadline, the additional info would be of some benefit.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 05:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 14, 2018, 11:55:56 pmTrue but a DMM is typically already on your bench. I use my bench DMM for checking capacitor values quickly because it is already there (and usually on).

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:29:08 pm
content: I'm a little late to this party, but I've got an SDM3045X and recommend it. Also have the DER EE DE-5000, and could definitely recommend that route (handheld + LCR combo) as well.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 01:10:36 am
content: Given the budget increase, it would allow for a GW Instek 8251A, DER EE DE-5000, and leave $156.Quite a bit could be done with that. One or more handheld DMM's for convenience (which also suck up less bench space*), components, quality supplies that may be needed, .... Or just save it.* I find this very important as the mess always seems to grow. YMMV of course.