The end of a TV repair shop. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 07:48:26 pm
content: From shango066 on YouTube.I like the bottles of booze on the shelf.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:25:00 pm
content: That was a nice video. Thanks for sharing.Although I have to argue with Harvey's assertion that panel TVs are built for only a few years (or 1 year for newest ones) of service. I've got a 10yo plasma that works fine and a 6yo LCD in the same boat. My monitors (which are pretty much just TVs without the sound) are all between 2 and 8 years old.

author: mzacharias
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 10:04:51 pm
content: I tell my customers that a new tv - LED, LCD, Plasma, whatever, is living on borrowed time after about five to eight years.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 01:05:07 am
content: Meh. If it doesn't get hit by lightning and it doesn't contain poor-quality electrolytic caps, there's really no reason a modern LED-backlit LCD TV shouldn't last 20 years just like the old-school Zeniths did. You still get what you pay for, at least to some extent, and in today's consumer market even the cheapest among us is still getting good value for the most part.Whining that customers won't pay you $200 to repair something they can replace for $100 may be cathartic, but it obviously won't pay the bills. Ultimately it's the repair shop's responsibility to keep an eye on market trends and retarget the business accordingly. I still remember the first time I ever saw a $29 DVD player next to a $100 flatscreen TV... it was like a bucket of cold water in the face.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 06:31:07 am
content: I am sure there are places in the world where it is still financially feasible to have a TV repaired.Where import taxes and importer greed and there may be strife - and work is cheap it may still be feasible.In some places around the world 40 year old cars are all over the place. In Israel, the quality of the work of the importers technicians means that you are lucky if the car lasts 20 years.That said the shift from analog to DTV meant that at once all the old TV were no longer worth repairing.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 08:29:55 am
content: Our Samsung TV is three years old and I've already repaired it once, a badly soldered HDMI socket. There is still a place for TV repair but PROFITABLE TV repair is another matter, my time is cheap.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 08:57:03 am
content: Well, in the past I have worked in a couple of repair shops myself. I can agree with the fact that many components are mediocre quality. It is getting better. Mostly it is just bad design (saved every penny on cheap components, mostly caps and transformers) or bad soldering.The whole problem is that electronics nowadays are simply to cheap compared to labour costs.You can buy a pretty decent TV for 300-500 bucks.Workers cost a company somewhere around $60-100 per hour, so if you spend more than 4-6 hours on a tellie it's already useless.That's including administration work and pickup.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 09:21:42 am
content: It's easy to be biased, but if I looked at my own devices and my surroundings the repair shop wouldn't be dying down becasue the life of the devices becomes shorter but rather the opposite, them being reliable enough not to require repair until the next thing comes out.Yes you used to be able to keep a TV for 20-30 years (my parents had a 35 year old CRT until recently), the reason you don't anymore is not that new ones fail, it's because now new standards and features come out regularly.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 03:14:37 pm
content: IMHO price is an issue. Back in the old days TVs where terribly expensive items but nowadays you could buy a new one every year and still go on a holiday.I recall paying 1200 euro (in today's money) for a 14" CRT monitor around 1994. Nowadays you can buy a full-HD (1920x1080) monitor for 120 euro from a decent brand like LG. That is 10 times less in about 20 years! And yes, the 14" CRT monitor ended up in the dumpster long before it was end-of-life.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 03:32:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 14, 2016, 03:14:37 pmYikes, I don't remember what I spent on a Commodore 1950 multi-mode monitor (for the glorious Amiga), but it wasn't cheap, and it was something like 14" too.The only thing I still use from that time is a HP 5L laser printer, it cost 600$ back then.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 03:47:46 pm
content: QuoteHow did you pay 1200 € by a CRT monitor?QuoteWith this you achieve to get a castrate TV ,with the half options blocked besides the screen sizes arrive until 22 inches.Beetween 250-400 € you may achieve a TV without many options blocked and with the screen sizes until 52 inches

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 05:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: vodka on August 14, 2016, 03:47:46 pmInflation over 20 years and back then 800 Dutch Guilders in cash which was already an extremely good deal for a 14" color monitor.QuoteNowadays you don't need a TV. Just a monitor which can take whatever is output by the settop box / decoder. BTW I ended the subscription for cable TV nearly 15 years ago.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 06:50:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 14, 2016, 03:14:37 pmAre you sure you haven't got the conversion rate backwards? In '94 I paid only about 1450Euro in today's money (according to the online inflation calculator, 2000DM back then) for a complete middle-of-the-road PC inclusive 14" CRT.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 07:12:36 pm
content: QuoteCareful, the inflaction may distort very the reality ,if you convert 800 Guilders to pesetas from 1994 (1pta / 75 NLG) aproximatly 60,000 ptas, when the legal minium salary at Spain was 60,595 ptas(364€).That's a price quite reasonable for this season ,but trying to become the guilders from 1994 to Euro with the variation of the inflaction is bad idea becuase the inflaction is a statistics and this tend to handle by goverments .For this reason, without inflaction are 800 NLG = 363€ and his calculation with inflaction are 1200 € . The price of the producte rises 330%(1200/363=3.3 x 100 = 330%) , then at theory ,you have to charge 3 time more for can to pay this product.(I think that you haven't rised the salaries at Neerdeland) .

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 07:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: NottheDan on August 14, 2016, 06:50:23 pmI used an online inflation calculator as well but I see their output is rather obfustigated and it should be around half so my old 14" CRT monitor is about 5 times more expensive instead of 10 times.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 07:43:38 pm
content: QuoteNeerdeland 800 NLG(1994) - 1200 €(2016) On resume : the neerdeland salaries is 3600€/monthUK 800 NLG(1994)- 1450 € (2016) On resume : the uk salaries is 5800€/monthSpain 60,000 ptas(1994)-611.49€ (2016) On resume : the spain salaries is 1029.75€/month (Damm, we follow to be mileuristas)http://www.ine.es/calcula/calcula.doI follow to think that to add the inflation to vintage price haven't sense

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 07:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 14, 2016, 07:31:40 pmWere monitors so much more expensive in the Netherlands than in Germany? I just looked at some (German) price lists from back in 1994 (and Guilder were close enough in value to DM) and 14" monitors are considerably lower in price there. 800 guilder/714DM would get you a higher-range 15" monitor on those lists (17"ers were considerably more expensive but 14" seemed to top out below 500DM and 15"ers started from there).

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 08:30:03 pm
content: TV repair has become obsolete because:1. TV quality/features are changing more rapidly2. They are cheaper relative to average income than ever before3. The labor cost/repair vs. buying new with "insurance" is not worth fixingMany people these days are just picking up "insurance" which lets them swap their defective TV for a new one within the first 4-5 years. After that, they will likely toss it and buy a new one because the economics are not worth it. Factor in the repair cost and time without a TV, and the fact that a new one will come again with a 4-5 year warranty/"insurance", and has enough new features to make it worth the switch... It's a hard sell.More and more TV repair these days is done by electronics do-it-yourselfers like folks here on the EEVBlog who learn about it and want to test their skills first, knowing if they don't success they'll toss it and buy new one anyways. Combine that with shops online likehttp://www.shopjimmy.com/that sell you "component kits" to full boards of commonly failed parts on many TV models, and if you can usually fix things yourself.There are the simple blown-cap type jobs on power supplies which you can buy components for yourself, to more complex multi-part failures that take a bit more time(see for example 3:50 in the video below):Nevertheless, the AVERAGE person will go to BestBuy and pay $100 non-refundable "diagnostic fee". Then once you add labor and cost of parts.... Say a board costs $50-100, and then another $50 labour, you are at least in the $200-300 range with taxes in. Doesn't matter whether TV is 36" or 50". Even if the board is 99% good and 1 cap is blown, the tech will likely replace entire board and NOT replace single caps by de-soldering/re-soldering. Then they give you 90 days warranty.Meanwhile, you'll find these new 50" TV's for $500-600. They give you maybe 2 year manufacturer warranty, then you pay another $50-100 for maybe to cover you for years 3-5 (or whatever it is).I think it is purely economics. Even if TV features don't change much, the ratio of cost of repair to buy new is tipping the decision of most average consumers, while electronics hobbyists do it because (A) their labour is "free" and for the most part they consider it a challenge to see if they can fix it, and (B) most will have at least some gear (soldering iron, meters, scopes, component availability), and (C) they know the cost of components is miniscule and it is worth spending the time to fix it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 08:46:48 pm
content: Quote from: NottheDan on August 14, 2016, 07:59:46 pmEven today things in Germany are a lot cheaper than in the Netherlands. Besides that there may have been better deals out there at that time but I wasn't aware of them. Also VAT may make the difference. Back in those days internet as we know it today didn't exist so comparing prices was hard; I think I got the monitor through an advertisement in a magazine. I went over to the shop (about 50km away) with my parent's Lada (yes that is a car).

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 10:38:15 pm
content: I always thought it was someone's failed attempt at a tractor working on a description from a drunken cossack who had once seen one twenty years ago and using only tools and materials you can find behind the barn.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 05:07:49 am
content: QuoteThe labor cost repair simply is a joke and they only are putting themselves the rope on his neck with these tariff, because somebody believe itself that can to live fixing 4 or 5 TV per month.QuoteThese are the technics "CHANGE-PIECES", they go to diagnostic page of the service manual ,they test 4 points and change the board. And they want to charge 50 or 100 euros per hour ,plus the board price between 100-200€.If the people had the possibility of the buying the replacement board to a reasonable price , the great majority of the electrohousehold might fix by the customers(at their homes).But now ,we have ecological goods with consuming more efficient thanks to silly fashion of the corporations and goverments ,but our goods last each time less and therefore they have to use more resource for replacing it.HURRA for ecological hypocrise

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 05:53:57 am
content: He should move to a third-world country. I bet they have a lot of CRT TVs that need fixing.*rimshot*

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:30:16 am
content: Quote from: vodka on August 15, 2016, 05:07:49 amNo way. Nowadays less and less people are doing what's "not their job". Even those who could understand how to do it (and do it safely) will simply not want to.Heck, many people don't want to prepare their food anymore and buy ready-made stuff.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 09:26:46 am
content: I don't watch Tv anymore else because I found it to be stupid and dis-educative: there are no more documentaries and stuff like that, ads everywhere and the few programs they make they bombard you with stupid political debates and all that nasty stuff: whenever you realize that the situations are never going to change, the whole point is useless... The few culture programs they make, they don't even know what they are talking about neither they go deep on subjects. Nowadays art is like a no brainier catalog of items to show....I'm glad to say that I will never buy a TV again. I'd go for a monitor instead...

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 09:45:33 am
content: TV's make great monitors, and are much cheaper for the same sizes or bigger!I don't have TVs to watch TV, I use them fro my PCs

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 10:06:55 am
content: The same here. Only a few gems, most stuff is simply BS. Still we have to pay EUR 210 per year (TV/radio fee, but it's like a tax). It's amazing how much BS can be created with EUR 8 billion a year.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 10:11:08 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on August 15, 2016, 09:45:33 amSo do I : I use a TV for playing PS2 and Xbox that was given by my grandma (never used at that time) and then nothing else. I do have a monitor that I use for pc and gaming and connecting my instruments sometimes (Actually you reminded me that I have a spare wall mount for that)

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 10:16:06 am
content: Quote from: madires on August 15, 2016, 10:06:55 amIncredible? Better say unbelievable... And what's worst is that they occupy a huge portion of the RF spectrum to broadcast their misinformation, space that can be allocated to ham radio enthusiast: it certainly would be better!

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 10:27:58 am
content: I used to spend Saturdays helping out in a TV repair shop many many years ago. Some of the stuff the guy got up to was incredible, like not changing stretched drive belts in tape decks and VCRs, just boil them in the kettle to shrink them a little bit and refit them. You could almost guarantee that an angry customer would return the following Saturday with the same faulty VCR. Sometimes when a customer brought in a new(ish) VCR with a dirty playback head it would be my job to clean the head, take it out and replace it with an old head from a scrap VCR and then charge the customer for a new head. No wonder he went out of business.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 10:38:33 am
content: Are the quality problems restricted to specific brands or models? I guess I have been lucky in the quality merry go round. I have two computer monitors (Viewsonic VX910 and VX924) and a 26'' Samsung TV bought 10 years ago that are still going strong. In 2008 I got a Sharp 55'' TV also still going strong with no issues at all, and last year we got another Sharp - this one just crossed the one year mark still without problems, but who knows?That is my experience with old CRT technology as well, but the demand at the time was to have much more durability. Back in 1990 we bought a 14'' CRT computer monitor in Brazil for US$1000 (NEC Multisync 3D) that we sold well before it was reaching its end of life and in 1996 we moved on to a 17'' CRT (Viewsonic PT770) for US$700, which was also sold well before its lifetime.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 10:56:16 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 15, 2016, 10:38:33 amYes, there have been several class action lawsuits against TV makers due to defects affecting large numbers of people. For example, my Samsung was affected by the power supply flaw which resulted in them settling a large class action lawsuit in the USA:

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 11:00:30 am
content: Yes but that was due to the pretty much industry-wide "capacitor plague", so precisely not restricted to specific brands.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 11:24:30 am
content: My neighbor had a TV/audio shop. As a young electronics enthusiast he gave me some parts and PCBs from old CRTs when I asked. Later on I also got an old scope from him. IIRC, it was a Nordmende, 10 or 20MHz.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 11:36:21 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on August 15, 2016, 10:27:58 amDid you guys also swap the 1F caps between VCRs - those who complain about the time resetting and this who don't (but will)?What about spraying those mode switches in the National/Panasonic VCRs? Instead of replacing them.It was horrible I never let any technician whatsoever m touch any device unless I was there - and I usually fix stuff myself.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 11:55:58 am
content: I think the only thing that got swapped was usually the head, put and old worn head into a VCR and the picture was always better than with a new but dirty head. One of the strangest repairs was an old black and white TV with line whistle that had come in some time before, opened it up and found a plastic knife wedged in between the line output transformer primary coil and core, it still had food on it !! The guy really was a cheapskate. I only worked there for six months or so but it was always interesting to do "teardowns" on new gear that came in.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 02:03:44 pm
content: The cause of the death of the TV repair shop is electronics is far too cheap. Nice hefty import duties, of say 200% would fix the problem, boost government income, restore manufacturing and help put Red China's comrades back in their box.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 02:58:53 pm
content: What would fix, is that ALL our wages (and I mean ALL, everything, every thinkable job) go down.That's the only way to compete with Chinese prices.If ALL wages go down, the rest will be cheaper as well.Nowadays the majority of the price of products is determinate by the price for labor.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 03:11:54 pm
content: We got a new digital TV station and to get used to it being there they put on any industry film that was out of copyright and no one was buying any commercial time. It was great for a while. I liked the Corvair one that showed them driving over mountains and down the middle of a stream. They also had one about electronics from 1938. It made a strong point that if you thought you were interested in electronics, go into engineering. Repair was a dead end job and would be fighting for just an existence.