Why So Expensive? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 03:52:24 am
content: After watching some of Dave's multimeter videos, I can't help but wonder what you are paying for in expensive multimeters like Gossen or Fluke? Dave suggest a $50 multimeter is all you need. So the question is, how does a x10 or a x20 fold price increase get justified? What is in these top of the line units?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:13:09 am
content: It's kind of the difference between a Hyundai and a Mercedes or Aston-Martin, the cheap economy car will get you around just fine and a beginning driver would be foolish to blow a lot of money on a high end luxury car, but if you do a lot of driving or can afford it, a higher end car offers more comfort and better performance. Some of it is the prestige of the name but that's not all of it.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:15:21 am
content: Look at some of joe smith's videos on youtube. You pay for what you get when it comes to DMMs particulary for protection when you do something stupid. Brymen DMMs seem to stand out for value-for-money. Flukes are too expensive, IMO, although the $45 Chinese Fluke 101 appears to be a decent meter.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:16:29 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 18, 2019, 04:13:09 amNot the best analogy since Hyundai's have proven to be more reliable than Mercedes and WAY more reliable than Aston's.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:17:11 am
content: It's also the case with virtually everything, higher performance linearly increases price exponentially, you can get good functionality and performance from a $50 meter, but you can't get anything close to double the features and performance for $100. Let's say you drop $1000 on a nice 6.5 digit bench meter, well getting one more digit worth of accuracy is going to be double the price, at least, and getting that last 8th digit is double that price again, minimum.... but that's also about the limit you can get out of a benchtop instrument without really exotic measurement techniques in laboratory conditions.The justification is if you need the performance, otherwise, you're just spending for your own interest or for a bit better build quality or whatever. Most people don't need a really fancy meter, but there is the occasional application that needs a very high precision meter, and the price reflects of the difficulty of making it and the much lower volume of sales.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:19:37 am
content: Quote from: don.r on October 18, 2019, 04:16:29 amVirtually all cars are reliable now, obviously luxury cars have more to go wrong though, also a lot of cheap meters are plenty reliable. Anyway there's more to it than reliability, and you can insert whatever expensive and cheap brands you want, the effect is the same. High end products tend to offer better specs, better materials, better fit & finish, all around better experience.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:20:52 am
content: Sometimes its just a matter of few seconds that makes huge different in your career or your life ... imagine an ongoing investigation of an accident happened that may cause multi millions law suit or fine, and probably jail time too because of negligence.Investigator : What tool are you using ?You : Fluke/Gossen or any other 1st tier brands.Investigator : Are you sure they are compliant with <bla..bla..> insert your fav red tapes ...safety regulation here ...You : Yeah .... (answered with confident)... you're free and happily walk out without any problem ...

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:31:57 am
content: I've mentioned this before - but it is worth repeating...Many, many years ago I had a guitarist friend that wanted to get "the best" multimeter. Not knowing a lot about DMMs back then, I resorted to the one brand I did know: Fluke. He then went hunting for information and settled on a model that had a price tag in the $700 range back in the 70s. One of his first measurements was to check his household mainscurrent. (If your head is exploding right now - you got it right.)When I got the call that his new meter wasn't working I went over to see what had happened. When he showed me, I wasgladhe'd gone for the Fluke.While this was an error out of ignorance, similar errors - albeit for other reasons - would still have potentially catastrophic outcomes. Safeguards against such events are one (rather worthwhile) reason for the cost.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 07:04:57 am
content: Similar to Blueskull's comments:You are paying for quality components,Engineering design time and expertise,After sales support

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 07:55:48 am
content: Quote from: PixieDust on October 18, 2019, 03:52:24 amAll you need to do basic electronics and get started. Is better worth it? I think not, the most I've paid is about $100 secondhand which is fine for what I need. But then I'd not buy a new $50 meter, or even a $10 one unless it was an upgrade. While they appear to be a bargain, the cheaper brands aren't as reliable.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 08:20:12 am
content: Got it, thanks everyone.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 08:53:40 am
content: With and held meters a main difference is the safety / protection in case something goes wrong. A cheap meter is OK for low voltage / low power, but but these is already some risk to use them on a normal mains outlet, especially for someone who does not know about the risks. The CAT ratings on cheap Chinese meters are often fake.With bench top meters the main difference is accuracy. Higher accuracy can get quite expensive - like double (more like x 4) for every extra digit. Besides expensive parts, the other factor is production quantities going down at the high end.One can get around quite a lot with a cheap meter. A better meter is usually safer and may be easier to use (e.g. less thinking about the limitations).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 10:37:14 am
content: Quote from: PixieDust on October 18, 2019, 03:52:24 amThat's like asking what you get in a $100 designer t-shirt instead of a $5 t-shirt.The answer is: A $5 t-shirt is fine at home but you don't want to be in a night-club wearing a no-brand t-shirt.Quote from: PixieDust on October 18, 2019, 03:52:24 amInside? Nothing special. All the "special" is on the outside.eg. Brymen will sell you a meter with better insides (better safety, better accuracy, equally reliableandmore features) for half the price but:a) It won't be yellowb) Not many people outside these forums have even heard of Brymen.If you need brand recognition then it has to be Fluke. If it's just for you to use then there's better brands out there.Quote from: BravoV on October 18, 2019, 04:20:52 amIf you're employed as an accident investigator then Flukes aren't expensive.For home users? Yes they are.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 10:47:00 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 18, 2019, 04:31:57 amI agree. For working on mains I only use an A-brand multimeter.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 11:47:31 am
content: If the goal is to increase safety for everyone, then the pricing is counter intuitive, as the cheapos are what a beginner buys and beginners make more mistakes.Anyway, for commercial use you might be able to write it off tax, then price does not matter that much. Then there is just statistically the more often it is used, the more likely is the need for safety features.If you are an employer you might be in a better situation in case of any liability issues regarding work accidents with higher grade tools, that have all proper documentation wherever you are, where the manufacturer has an interest to be on this market.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 02:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on October 18, 2019, 11:47:31 amIt depends on the field, but in the realm of T&M equipment, fluke handheld multimeters are cheap. They are the type of things bought on startup of a lab in bulk, with good deals.They are proven workhorses that are reliable. I have never known a fluke at our lab to have failed (sure, people blow the shit out of the fuses, but pop in a new fuse and you are good to go). Losing a day of work because a multimeter turns out to be out of spec or something is way more expensive than what a fluke actually costs.I think it is hard to say a brymen is equally or more reliable. They might turn out to be, but they have not been on the market for long enough to prove that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 02:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on October 18, 2019, 02:35:18 pmEEVBLOG member Joe Smith has beaten on Brymens more than enough to believe they're as reliable/robust as Flukes are.But yeah, "Nobody ever got fired for buying a Fluke".(paraphrased)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 03:20:50 pm
content: I like Fluke because they are or at least were made right here in the USA. Just a few miles from me actually.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 03:42:56 pm
content: If you're playing with low voltages and low currents, sure a 50$ DMM will get you far, even then for 50$ expect a lot of quality and functionality variation.I go mostly go for 50$ DMM's, not cheap new far-far east ones but used ones that used to cost over 4x the price when introduced. I want them to be reliable over time, hard to destroy be it electrically or from falling from my height.My favourites for build quality are Fluke, AEMC, Gossen.I have a Brymen, nice meter, not my favourite for build quality, the main reason it gets used is that it will measure over 1kV without grumbling about an overvoltage.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:30:13 pm
content: Something else to consider is that amortized over time even an expensive meter is not that much money. I think I paid a bit under $400 for my Fluke 87 something like 10 years ago. I use it almost every day, it's easily the most used tool I own, that's only around $40 a year and it's still almost like new and going strong.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 04:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 18, 2019, 04:30:13 pmThat doesn't stop the initial outlay from hurting though.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 05:03:06 pm
content: The "Chinese" Flukes (15B+/17B+) are also really well built and plenty good enough for most EE work.You could start there if you really, really want a yellow meter so you can see what the fuss is about.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 05:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2019, 05:03:06 pmAgreed. I had a 17+ in my hand 1 Week Ago and I was expecting that models to be the size of the old Fluke 110, 111, 112 but no, they are giant, not as big as the 287/289 but a little not much smaller than the 87V. Robust, nice screen and a nice selector wheel.It's a Fluke, it doesn't matter were it is manufactured if the quality is the same. To be sincere the Made in USA should be Assembled in USA with Components from other countries.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 06:16:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2019, 04:53:24 pmSomeone told me once "buy good tools and only cry once" I've mostly stuck to that and rarely ever regretted spending too much on a tool. I have regretted buying the cheap one many times though.That said, I don't recommend a noob run out and buy high end tools. Start with something modest and treat yourself to something nice later on once you're able to appreciate what it offers.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2019, 12:13:59 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 18, 2019, 06:16:12 pmGlad I am not the only one who thinks like that. I made the same comment in a soldering iron thread and was told that is no longer relevant. Balderdash, it is relevant. Buy smart and buy right. That said, I do have a Fluke 101 in my company van. Works perfectly for what I need and is bang on with my DMM Check +. Then again, my modified ANENG 8008 and 8009 matches my Fluke 3478's on voltage (not so much on resistance). I have shopped well on the used market and have a Fluke 27F/M, GW Instek GDM8251A and 2 HP 3478A meters, bought for under $100 USD each. Also have 2 HP 3446A meters bought for less than $50 USD each. Everything is in spec with the DMM Check. There is no reason not to buy well in the used market if you practice patience. I would buy a new Fluke 87V if I could afford one, but I bought 4 meters for the price.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2019, 03:25:00 am
content: Quote from: PixieDust on October 18, 2019, 03:52:24 amGoshen? Fluke? Anybody buying such cheap crap that's less than Cat 12, 65,000kA/400MV rating is a total mug. And expect to get sued to hell and back when one of your employees accidently stabs themselves or a colleague with their ridiculously sharp test probes...

author: CDaniel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2019, 06:09:58 am
content: Without talking about quality and safety , a 50$ meter or even double , triple the price multimeter will never be good for true rms AC high frequency ... so everybody has his needs , from people advanced in electronics to amateurs .

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2019, 11:45:56 am
content: Quote from: CDaniel on October 19, 2019, 06:09:58 amThe VC8145 bench DMM is somewhere in the $150 ball-park and it has good coverage for AC rms in the audio band. But I wouldn't use this DMM for measuring mains.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2019, 12:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 18, 2019, 06:16:12 pm"Rarely" - but it does happen, right?Quote from: james_s on October 18, 2019, 06:16:12 pmI largely agree but that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek out the sweet spots and it doesn't mean there aren't cheap tools worth having.e.g. I don't regret buying my $25 Aneng 860B+, not one little bit, it's been used and abused for three years and keeps going like a champ. I regret buying an Aneng 8008 though, it developed a bad selector switch position after a single trip in my toolcase.On a similar vein, we all know those cheap Hantek and Owon 'scopes are junk, that the Rigol DS1054Z is the point where you're getting something worth owning. There's no need for everybody to go for $5000 Rohde and Schwartz.That's what these forums are for - to separate the good from the bad.Plus we allneedmultiple multimeters and buying three Flukes isn't really an option.Quote from: Black Phoenix on October 18, 2019, 05:20:04 pmYep. Even the little $45 Fluke 101 has a good heft to it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2019, 05:17:19 pm
content: Yeah I don't disagree there, I've never argued that everyone should buy high end, my point was just that when you can afford it it's better to err on the side of better than get really cheap stuff. There is absolutely a sweet spot that makes sense for most people.Now that you mention it, I do actually have three Flukes, although two of them are quite old and were bought used. My most used are the 45 on my bench and my handheld 87. While it has happened, I don't remember the last time I used more than one DMM at a time, I just don't often find myself needing to measure multiple things at once.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2019, 06:22:15 pm
content: Been said earlier but I thought I would put it in a slightly different way.The big names (Fluke, Gossen, Keysight etc) buisnes model is to produce high quality products for the professional (company) users.That is 1 reason why their meters cost lots, for companies that price range is no barrier to them.No company would consider a cheap meter like a Vichi or Aneng. If something went wrong and someone was hurt by a budget meter, just not worth it to a comany.Fluke have realised there is 2nd market of ameture users and produced the lower end range Fluke 1x eg Fluke 15.The <$50 dmm are definitely aimed at the ameture market.

author: Axtman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2019, 06:42:21 pm
content: Another advantage of Fluke is serviceability. There are a few sites online that have Fluke service/calibration data manuals. This is not so with other brand meters.Also, many of the Fluke meters have parts that are still available. If not available directly from Fluke there are new and used parts available on line. If worse comes to worse there are broken Fluke "parts" meters available at auction sites. This is not really the case with many other brand meters. Unless the replacement parts are standard and readily available, lesser brand meters are disposable.Case in point: I broke the plastic lens on my Fluke 85 meter and was able to find a replacement and repair the meter. I also damaged the plastic lens on my Klein meter. Klein does not manufacturer their meters and no parts are available. I have yet to find the part and will probably end up selling the meter as a "parts" meter.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 09:00:21 am
content: Thanks gents!

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 09:45:10 am
content: Buy a couple of decent cheapies to get the job done, learn what the limitations are,decide if the higher priced units and extra specs/features are really worth it and what use they'll get at this point in time,before forking out for a big dollar meterotherwise with inexperience you'll"buy once and cry BIG TIME"if you toast a Fluke or get it stolenwith no backup meter to keep working, and a credit card to feedSuggest to block the current inputs with some tape when not in use !Check out some of the Jaycar cheapies, that's what I started with years ago and they still do the business..if the Flukes are on holiday

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 03:43:09 pm
content: That reminds me of another handy feature offered by the Flukes that may be in other meters, I don't know. If you plug a probe into one of the current jacks with the meter set to anything but current it beeps angrily. It's a useful reminder that has saved me a few times. Of course that still won't help a beginner who is trying to actually measure current across a voltage source.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 05:53:53 pm
content: For sure Fluke is better, but not 6 times better. After you starting using fluke is hard to accept another multimeter, some little details make all the difference, They are roughy, reliable and stay in specs for decades, But for sure isn't on the price-performance class, Is extremely overpriced, is a luxurious multimeter

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 06:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 24, 2019, 03:43:09 pmLots of other meters do it, eg. Brymens. I've even got a $15 meter that does it.Some meters even have shutters over the holes so deaf people are safe, too. They even prevent the dial from turning back to voltage ranges when the probes are in the amps sockets.Quote from: ebclr on October 24, 2019, 05:53:53 pmYep. For many usage cases it's like buying a Rolls Royce just to to do the weekly shopping.