Job/Life Advice - A Disheartened Graduate Electronics Engineer... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: David
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2011, 07:31:31 pm
content: Hi all,I have been thinking about writing this thread for a while now but after today I feel like I need to get it out of my system. First of all, a very brief summary of my background...I graduated from univeristy last year in May. Not long after graduating I was very lucky to get offered to attend an assessment day/interview for a job as a graduate electronic engineer at an Aerospace company. I was happy to discover I got the job amongst only a very small number of other graduates. I started the job in September and found things to start very slowly, however this is normally the case when starting a new job so gave them the benefit of the doubt.Around a month into the job I soon started to realise that it was very different from how I imagined it to be. I began to notice that for every step in a process there are 10 other processes/procedures/forms/reports you must go through to do even the simplest of tasks. I also noticed that there were many "engineers" but very few seemed to do any real engineering. I like to see myself as someone with a good foundation in electronics and a fair bit of natural talent but this seemed to be above the standard of many others (I am trying hard not to sound big-headed).Thankfully several engineers on my team soon noticed that I have a genuine passion for electronics and that I have potential. Unfortunately, they told me that I would be lucky to do any real electronics design, which is what I want to do/learn a lot more of, as most of the designs are just built upon/refined from much older designs. I knew that aerospace moved quite slowly but nothing to the extent I have seen! Fortunately they found me a small project to do by myself which they were very pleased with the outcome of.There actual advice to myself was to find a high risk, high reward start-up company (as im still young) where I would be able to work on new exciting designs.Since starting the job I have spent 95% of my time writing and trawling through reports and documentation. I have come to realise that even if I were to do any real design it would consist of jumping through a million hoops followed by more reports.Now obviosuly this is my first exposure to the elecronics industry and I have only been in it around 3 months. I may have this dream in my head of what an electronic engineer does that is miles away from the future...Does a job like the following exist:* You are given a specification for a problem and told to fix it through the design of some electronics.* You jump straight into the details of how to tackle the problem.* You start pulling ideas together and mock up some prototypes etc.* You follow the project through to the end and hand over the finished product.* You do some (the basics...) documentation to support the project.I have obviously missed many steps out but this is the rough outline of what I thought an engineer does (At least thats what I do with my own projects).I could speak for a lot longer on this but don't want to bore people any more then I have already. At the end it comes down to this:* Do I stick with the job and hope it gets better? (Good job security, Good salary, Little enjoyment)* Do I try and find somewhere else to work? (Hard to find work, Potentially hard to match salary, More enjoyment)* I am a newbie and shouldn't expect everything at once.I hope half of this makes sense.Regards,Dave

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2011, 07:58:43 pm
content: Your experience is not uncommon, especially considering large corporations that are the aerospace industry. The job you described exists more often in smaller firms and companies. They do exist in large corporations but they are rare and you still have to deal with all the tedious beaureaucratic red tape you were complaining about. This is just an artifact of a large corporation. If you can get over these red tape issues, nothing will ever trump the endless budget and facilities that giants can provide for their core design engineers. A lot of people take these types of engineering environments as mythological, or they hear about them but they have never seen them or know anyone whos an engineer in one.You could stick with the job for awhile and do some research to try and figure out where these type of environments exist in the company, assuming they actually do design work in your field. Sometimes companies will contract out in areas such as electronics or avionics so they can focus their work on something else they might specialize in. This is very common in aerospace. Again, if they contract out figure out to who and maybe think about that. If the kind of work is actually done in house, figure out where. Sometimes there are online technical communities with in the company, where the companies engineers go to get technical advice from other engineers. If your company has something similar to this you could find out a lot. Figure out whos the running the show for those programs and teams and try to get involved through company organizations, etc. Large corporations tend to have a lot of leadership type organizations, etc. Just network your way towards to getting someplace you are happier.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 12:17:01 am
content: Jump though the hoops for a couple of years while you can and start setting up a company on there time and profit

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 11:53:52 am
content: Couldn't agree more with Time. Further a lot of development goes on in the military and healthcare electronics area, constant new product design. Aerospace, I'm not very familiar, but if its civilian avionics, it could tend towards the ultra conservative, not so with military applications.In military, as you know, hi tech wins battles, so its a sea of constant innovation and change. You have to be able to pass security clearance, have no moral holdbacks about what you are doing and live with lower salaries than industry, but the toys you play with are unheard off. Most friends I know who entered as fresh graduates are still there.Healthcare is constantly on the move, if a device works, the next step is reduce size, weight, power and that keeps going as more devices come online than make yesterday's small even smaller. Robotics is very big.Consider the field too whens selecting jobs. Where you are isn't so bad, I'd take time's advice, the experience working in a large corporation will help wherever you go. Team work is key, and of course, its a given you know your design stuff.Quote from: Time on January 05, 2011, 07:58:43 pm

author: Strube09
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 01:09:49 pm
content: Dave,I have that small job you speak of. I work with the customer to make a product specification that we agree too. Because our company is small, I am the only EE and do everything from how to tackle the issues, schematic capture, pcb layout, prototypes, testing, QC test fixtures and procedures, work with production create the building process. Then in the end I can see my hard work turn into a product that only I worked on.... Sounds great eh?Well it can be great at times, but because we are a small company I have no one to turn to when I have issues, our company is barely making it through because we don't have enough business and money, when I screw up and recall a product or delay a production there can be a couple of million dollars that is lost and is my fault. It can get very stressful. In addition the company always looks for the cheap way out of a situation. I have several products on the market I know could work more efficient and a better product but the owners wanted it cheap. Then we end up with a bunch of returns that they want to constantly rework and salvage. It becomes a vicious cycle. Not to mention the unrealistic deadlines. Remember how I have to do everything. They will tell the customer at times that I will have a prototype for them in 2 weeks. Then when they approve the prototypes they tell them they can start production immediately… HA! I haven’t even design the test beds and procedures and worked with the production staff on the new product… ARGHHHH. Sometimes I wish I had a big company job where I could work on little task and push papers around…. Sometimes I would rather have boring over stressful long hours.Yes you can get lost in a big company and just be employee #1234. But in a small company you may not know if you will have a job next week or if some other young hotshot out of college will come in and take your job. Remember the smaller the company the less money they have to pay their employees. Hence, if someone comes in and offers to work for less they may consider it.Just some food for thought.Strube.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 01:30:29 pm
content: something to think about, You have time to find a better more interesting roll a bit later, I would advise learning how these big companys think and operate, documentation may be very important in this type of business. You have a good chance to build a reputation for reliability and a work record, get a foothold in the property market with a stable regular income and build a foundation personally for yourself. I would tell you with hindsight (I made lots of mistakes, I speek from experiance) that is very important for you in the long run. You will meet some great people I'm sure and will have some interesting problems if you look for them.

author: DaveW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 02:12:08 pm
content: Hi there, thought I'd add my perspective as I've been working for only a couple of years in a medium sized company in defence aerospace. I've seen the kind of problems you're talking about a lot and heard about them from a lot of people I work with-mostly escapees from B A E... Working for a smaller company seems to be a lot better and more fun. There's only two electronic engineers in our company so we get to actually do some design and see stuff made. A typical project will involve doing the design work, a design review with a smallish group of people. We'll then sub out the layout, board construction and population, but when the board comes in I'll be hooking it up, working with the software guys, all the way through to being there for the tests, including designing/constructing test equipment.As Stube said, there's more pressure, but on the flip side as a young engineer I know basically all the senior management, the people who own the company; and even better, all the management above me are qualified engineers which makes things more pleasant.There are some interesting jobs out there, definitely a tradeoff with other factors though.

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 02:29:28 pm
content: Gosh, this thread is bad spelling central!

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 02:49:24 pm
content: There is another point alm made me think of: if you are working in a defense or military centric company and your job does not require a clearance chances are you aren't going to design anything or even handle designs.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 02:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 06, 2011, 02:29:28 pmThank you for your valuable input.

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 03:27:22 pm
content: Quote from: Time on January 06, 2011, 02:50:00 pmI'd say that learning the correct spelling and use of grammar is VERY valuable, epecially as we're talking about employment and possible job applications.

author: Joy at MCS
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 03:51:08 pm
content: In regards to the red tape, this is something you will probably have with most companies you work with unless you work for a very small company. It frustrates everyone I know but seems to be part of life.I've got a few friends who work in aerospace and it seems to me that you don't get much chance to do design as you would in some other fields . So you may like working in a different field more.If there's some things you like in your job maybe you should stick it out some and learn as much as you can. It seems to me that they are trying to accommodate you as much as they can which is more than what a lot of companies would do.There have been some jobs which when I first started I hated it but after hanging in a bit I grew to love the job.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 04:16:54 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 06, 2011, 03:27:22 pmWe are talking casually in a casual environment. Not in a work environment. We are trying to convey points and information relevant to the OP, not proper grammar. Not to mention there are countless people who don't even read/write english as their first language around here so if you care about spelling and grammar this forum is not for you. As long as you are getting across your points I don't see the problem with a few run-ons or mispellings. Maybe you should find a grammar forum.

author: glossywhite
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 04:46:10 pm
content: Apologies, it was a light hearted observation which you maybe mis-construed as being overly critical.

author: David
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 07:29:03 pm
content: Thank you for all your input and support. I think I know deep down that I am actually in quite a good position at the moment (considering the economy etc...) and that I should probably stick with the job at least for the short term. As it turns out, the project I was just assigned to may have just turned out to be a little more complex than first expected (thank obsolescence for that!). We will see...Dave

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 07:46:48 pm
content: if you are boring, just bring your hobby project to work. i agree with some posters above regarding too busy, you'll be too stressfull. i also agree that as the time by, u'll get used to your job. i'm suspecting the OP is in transition period. so i think this is the best time to re-think, whether to look deeper into your current job, or to "google" for another career. the OP is lucky to get all these advices.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2011, 09:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 06, 2011, 02:29:28 pmYesterday I couldn't spell engineer, and now I are one!Dave.

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2011, 03:13:16 am
content: Engineer?I thout twas Injunear

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2011, 03:30:25 am
content: I just shot a bog this morning about Dave's question here, will edit tonight and see how my ramblings came out!Dave.

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2011, 03:48:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 07, 2011, 03:30:25 amAh the early morning bog just cannot be beat

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2011, 04:08:14 am
content: Quote from: RayJones on January 07, 2011, 03:48:36 amThis keyboard does indeed suck.As for the early morning bLogYes, the sounds of birds chirping, and the sound of me only half awake and conscious!Dave.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2011, 07:53:12 am
content: Quote from: glossywhite on January 06, 2011, 03:27:22 pmmy MD and the guy that was promoted out of the job I now have can't always spell stuff right and I'm forever helping my supervisor word stuff correctly. Although I always do my best to spell stuff right

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2011, 07:57:37 am
content: Quote from: David on January 06, 2011, 07:29:03 pmI'm in a similar position as a QC inspector, it looked like a great job but all the paperwork stops me from inspecting that much. I've done my best though to show them that I know about electronics and was asked to do a small design for them. Hopefully one day they will realise that there are better ways of dropping 24V to 12V than a series power resistor and will let me do some R&D for them. They usually sub out electrics/electronics to some wanker consultant who really should be told to take a run and jump for all the problem solving they do.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2011, 01:17:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 07, 2011, 03:30:25 amA participant sport for many a country lad despite the tightening of gun laws.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2011, 10:34:21 pm
content: I can't spell right, write. that is Glossy and I did not think you were being anything but friendly. I do find spelling annoying at times and other times it seems just so unimportant on an informal place like Dave's forum. I'm not daft most of the time. I was the only kid in my Physics class at school to point out that protons sit together in the nucleus but when we was being thought electrostatics that like charges repel, the teacher had only a fluffed answer. Mind you thats the only time I came up with something cleaver.