How can I get info if device is legal or not in US? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Edcali
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 02:25:56 am
content: So sorry if this topic does not belong even to this forum but a question I must ask to a lawyer who specialized in electronics patent or industrials codes whatever that option is expensive for me now, I have been struggling with back spine problems, a surgery did not fix, so years in my bed room already and I have a few months I have been making my own designs and selling PCBs like PLCC's Adapters for universal programmers, USB type C adapter Type C pass through break board etc, for fun and buy a coffee of course.But now, I am thinking going something serious in that direction, my question is How figure if a PCB has patent property? Let say I want to make Soldering Pins Probe Adapters for Willem programmers(that are Universal programmers) or in-circuit ECU scan, these Pin Probes are just POGO pin Probes with soldered specified dimensions for SOP8, DIP8 etc, But I can't find if this probes have a patent and I don't want facing legal problems for a just bucks..Any idea where to start?

author: Colt45
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 05:16:13 am
content: god, I hope you can't patent pin spacing...DIP and sop are ancient, as are pogo pins, so...?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 05:44:39 am
content: Quote from: Colt45 on May 09, 2023, 05:16:13 am"A connector device for maintaining a desired spatial relationship for spatially and securely connecting to a platform, such as a circuit board, in an efficient manner."https://patents.google.com/patent/US7878834B2/en?oq=+7%2c878%2c834+https://patents.google.com/patent/US8057248B1/en?oq=8%2c057%2c248Apparently yes.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 06:13:57 am
content: Hello we have 7 patents and have liscenced some, since 1977.you can patent, TM or (C) anything but the IP (Intellectual Property) may be faulty, since the US PTO is vary badly managed.The validity of IP is only prooven if it is valuable enough to be litigated.99.9 % of all patents are never litigated or enforced.I would be concerned only if the patent is widely used by a major firm, and you will be in mass production.If thats the case, consult a patent lawyer.Expect $400..700/hourLitigation costs can run to milllions of $Jon

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 06:19:01 am
content: yeah, the question isn't really "is this thing patented already"it's more "Are there any patents for this which are actually enforceable"

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 06:32:55 am
content: Psi: RE Patent vauation such as enforcable ....You can enter the patent number on the PTO site, and see the PTO record for assignees, litigation, status.https://ppubs.uspto.gov/pubwebapp/static/pages/ppubsbasic.htmlSearch and get all the patent numbers, Repeat with every patent you find relivant.Takes some hours or days of work.Professional Patent valuation involves a PA (Prior Art) search and reading the claims and file wrapper at the least. ....cost $10K..50K$ per patent!Thus to determine if a patent is "enforcable" is not a cheap or simple question.....Jon

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 07:29:02 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on May 09, 2023, 06:13:57 amIf your licensee still pays you for using a 1977 patent, they should probably consult a patent lawyer too... Patents have a maximum lifetime of 20 years. This should also help the OP; spring-loaded pins and this type of multi-pin adapter are certainly older than 20 years.@Edcali -- I can't see how patents would get in the way of selling these simple adapters. But please make sure that you respect trademarks. Not sure whether "Willem programmer" is trademarked; "Pogo pin" certainly is, and some of your adapters' target systems or debug port names might also be trademarked. Just make sure to acknowledge 3rd party trademarks if you mention them, and identify them with theTMor(R)mark. And only call your pins "Pogo pins" if they actually are originals.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 07:33:26 am
content: Everything is patented. Microsoft has patent on double clicking. Better question is, is the patent enforceable? But even this is still the wrong question - given enough money and good enough lawyers, even a totally ridiculous case can be made to destroy you if they so wish.So the only relevant question is, is there afinancial interestto sue you? Are you a threat to a large corporation and their market share? If yes, no matter what you actually do or don't do, you canalwaysget sued, or otherwise extorted, using legal, illegal or grey means.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 07:38:20 am
content: Eblaster:RE Licensing..Sorry for the misunderstanding.All these patents and licenses ended long ago, I have related history.Our patent work STARTED in 1977 and ended in 2015.The patents granted were either assigned to customers., litigated or licensed.A US patent lasts 17..20 years (changed in 2017 America Invents Act)A license period can go back or forward from date of notification, and the patent must be active, fees paid, and not cancelled.A single license fee may be paid or a continuing royalty, eg per unit similar to copyrights etc.Note that litigation can be for PAST or current infringement.US laws are in USC 35 :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_35_of_the_United_States_CodeEnjoy,Jon

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 07:40:10 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on May 09, 2023, 06:32:55 amWhile this advice is not incorrect, it also is not too useful. How do you "get all the patent numbers"?Thatis the difficult part.But as mentioned before, not something I would expect to be relevant for the OP's intended products. These are "known in the prior art", i.e. they implement a basic design that is more than 20 years old.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 07:50:34 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on May 09, 2023, 07:38:20 amI believe the term change from "17 years from grant date" to "20 years from filing date" was already made in 1995 in the US, well before the "America Invents Act".The AIA implemented some other harmonizations with international patent law, notably including the "first to file" rule for defining priority. (It was "first to invent" before in the US.) And it did so in 2011, not 2017, right?

author: jwet
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2023, 07:51:33 am
content: Just sell your thing and have fun. Patents are a poorly understood mess. Making Pogo pin download/ISP cables is somewhat obvious and not patentable and certainly not defendable. I've made things like this in the 1990's that I shipped to customers- it was for firmware updates on a little gadget and there aren't many ways to accomplish it. If you can make these and people want to buy them, go for it and have a ball. If anyone comes after you, which is EXTREMELY unlikely, just stop selling them. Good luck.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2023, 09:20:49 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on May 09, 2023, 06:32:55 amThis is true, but often you find a patent that is so simple and that so many other companies are violating that it's pretty fair to assume its not enforceable.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2023, 04:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on May 09, 2023, 05:44:39 amAs an aside, these excerpts from the second patent above is a prime example of why most patent filings make me angry:QuoteThese models of obfuscation serve only to word things so obtusely as to require a patent lawyer to reliably decode them.As a former professional technical writer, I know it is possible to explain things in clear, unambiguous language that is precise while still being legible.Patent language is, as I see it, rent seeking from patent lawyers, and a barrier to patent litigation for patent trolls, since a layperson isn’t going to risk going to court over it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2023, 04:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on May 09, 2023, 07:33:26 amWell, theyhadone to be more exact; it has since expired.https://patents.google.com/patent/US6727830B2/enThough I still think it’s a patent that should never have been granted, it wasn’t on the concept of double-clicking in general. It was on using button press patterns (short press, long press, double press, etc) on application launch buttons on mobile devices. So if the application launch button wasn’t on a mobile device, it wouldn’t apply, nor would it apply to non-application-launcher buttons on mobile devices, like volume or power buttons. They basically wanted to patent that, for example, the hardware email button on a PDA would launch the app when pressed one way, maybe go directly to a new email when pressed another way, and perhaps previews the latest message when pressed another way.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 06:43:02 am
content: Tooki:Having written 7 patents and procecuted most Pro Se, the wrtign of claims is a critical and precice art.According to the US code (35 USC) the claims must completely define the invention and the limits of the patent.The claims precicely define the legal monopoly the goverment grants to the patentee.Books have been written about patent wrtiting and claims. See the excellet Nolo Self Help Law Press "Patent it Yourself" by my old friend David Pressman.https://store.nolo.com/products/patent-it-yourself-pat.htmlMega dolllar patent litigation has been decided by a single claim and within a single word or punctuation mark.The claims must limit the inventions scope to avoid any prior art or obviousness.Thus claims are not written to obscure, the figures and the specification support the claims.My inventionsand patent work was long ago but the basic laws have not changed.HAVE AN ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC DAY!Jon

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 07:18:56 am
content: I respectfully disagree with your conclusion. There are ways to word patents that aren’t as obfuscating as this one. For example, many patents use numbers to identify things, so that you don’t need to use the same nested descriptors over and over. Describe it once and refer to it by number subsequently.Just because it needs to be precise and unambiguous doesn’t mean it needs to be obtuse. If anything, IMHO that obtuseness increases the risk of misinterpretation that could ultimately invalidate it. Clarity and precision are not opposite ends of a single axis, they’re orthogonal. You can have text that is simultaneously precise and clear, and you can have text that is unclear and imprecise. And any other combination. Don’t think that precision has to come at the expense of clarity.And I have read patents that were much clearer than the hot mess I quoted. It can be done.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 07:32:51 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on May 11, 2023, 06:43:02 am

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 08:17:44 am
content: Tooki You will find good/bad/ugly in patents and claims like any other work or writing.depends on the writer and time effort expended.As most patents are written by patenr lawyers on hourly rate, (not the inventor) the claims are often poorly explained.My telecom patent was extensively litigated ....councils and the judge said my claims were very clear.Jon

author: Edcali
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 09:28:34 am
content: May I Private message you?I am thinking using very unrelated generic name titles if I fabricate and sell them like " Pin probes 2.54mm,1.27mm", so on respectively for each kind of pin test and avoid which kind of ECU (Engine Control Unit) they are compatible for, or avoid using any Trademark known name.They are just pin probes with a specific dimensions that are standard in the Electronics industry.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 02:47:37 pm
content: When engineering, I was always ordered to never search for relevant patents because doing so would be evidence of willful infringement with triple damages.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 03:11:26 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 11, 2023, 02:47:37 pmBut not doing any search qualifies you for lack of due diligence... Searching "just enough", somewhat superficially, is what I have typically seen. And making a freedom-to-operate analysis part of your formal development process, so things look good on paper.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 03:17:11 pm
content: These pogo pin adapters are common on eBay and come from both Asia and European makers. Not inexpensive items and as eBay has not taken the auctions down, it would appear that no one has complained about Patent infringement. Just search for “Pogo pin probe SOP8” to see that these are commonly used for car ECU programming.Good luck with your venture and it hope they sell well. There is certainly a market for these probes. I need a SOP8 for BIOS chip programming.Fraser

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 03:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on May 09, 2023, 05:44:39 amAnd apparantly these are not what he intends to sell. (one uses hooks, the other guides).

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 04:38:21 pm
content: Edcali: unsure if you direct the note to me.1/ Use USPTO and EOP site for "trademark search"Enter text of proposed TMs. See what appears. Your issues are answered!2/Due to security and time restrictions a PM is not possible.Bon Chance,Jon

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 04:42:53 pm
content: David Hess: We had spent weeks back to 1986, on an early text database, PTO CDROMS and at the patent library, to discover PA and include inthe Pat App as references and on the PA list to PTO.In our patent litigation, back to 2000, we were still attacked by the defendants (infringers) for NOT having done a through enough search!I am not aware of the trible damages risk you mention, possibly a confusion re marking and notification.Enjoy,Jon

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 05:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 11, 2023, 03:11:26 pmHeads they win and tails you lose.Quote from: jonpaul on May 11, 2023, 04:42:53 pmIt is part of US caselaw:The most common basis for increased damage awards is willful infringement. Beginning in1983, the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit handed down a number of decisionsconcerning willfulness and emphasized the importance of obtaining the advice of counsel toavoid a finding of willfulness. The Federal Circuit court has stated the legal duty as follows—aperson with actual notice of another’s patent rightshas an affirmative duty to exercise due care todetermine whether the person’s acts will be infringing, including the duty to seek and followcompetent legal advice before beginning activity that may constitute patent infringement....The bottom line—if you are planning a new product development effort andhave discovered apatent or patents that you might infringe, or if you have been put on notice of someone’s patentrights, it is good business practice to obtain an opinion of counsel.