Talk on how design is only a small part of making hardware - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2010, 11:41:55 pm
content: w0z (no relation) talks about developing hardware and compres the prototyping process to a compiler.http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/10/28/hardware-will-cut-you-video/(NB contains NSFW language!)

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 12:41:07 am
content: that girl has a potty mouth! she should stick with making powerpoint slides and avoid sound amplification/recording equipment.-sj

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 01:31:39 am
content: That was a nice talk, short, sweet and to the point.

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 01:45:57 am
content: Intelligence and experience != class, poise, or civility.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 03:50:57 am
content: It is clear that she is very passionate about her subject, but she needs to calm the hell down. I'm a Yorkshireman, and have worked in pretty rough industrial environments, but if I used language like her to that extent, especially in front of an audience, I suspect I would be out of the door pretty quick. Maybe she thinks it is the only way to compete in a largely male environment. No matter how good she is at her job, if she cannot use language that is appropriate then it will hold her back.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 04:24:04 am
content: Quote from: Zad on November 08, 2010, 03:50:57 amI've had people tell me the exact same thing!Dave.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 04:41:34 am
content: Quote from: Zad on November 08, 2010, 03:50:57 amNah, everyone was clearly entertained. I'm sure if she has to have an audience at the Royal Society she will adjust her language.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 04:41:47 am
content: A very good talk, I learned a couple of things.I'd hate to meet her when she's angry...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 12:26:25 pm
content: i watched that, not fully yet... she is good! and will be i think, at...blowingthings up!i dont get anything though at what she was talking abouti just interested at how her mouth moves.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 01:16:25 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on November 08, 2010, 12:26:25 pmShafri, maybe (well, I'm quite sure) you are confusing this thread with the one, recently opened, on the guy making things blow up. Isn't it so?Otherwise you won't have thought about that particular ability!

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 03:25:15 pm
content: Believe me, I'm all for more women in science and technology.These gals are just more my speed.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 04:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 08, 2010, 04:24:04 amThe 2 main differences I see here are shes a 'she' and she grew up in America not Australia. Otherwise the exuberant passion is the same.The language was rather tame compared to my work environment at times and I hardly noticed it as I was entertained more than turned off by it. I work in the depths of white collar engineering doing design with many ivy league educated PhDs and we still talk like sailors. Maybe its just an American thing. It was an information security conference, a software hackers conference from what I can tell. Those guys probably prefer the informal and crude banter.I thought she was awesome and did a good job explaining what goes into hardware in a very short time. I am going to use this to show to my physicist and software colleagues who are always wanting to know what it takes to realize printed designs.

author: d3javu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 04:36:48 pm
content: is it me or she sounds like rapping, just add some beats matching her tempo and voila! anyway, she is good, at least to me, fast and precise.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2010, 05:01:52 pm
content: "...and The Art of Electronics, which by the way is not a how-to-do-engineering its a fucking cook book of circuits."

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2010, 12:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: sonicj on November 08, 2010, 12:41:07 amI find the expression "potty mouth" much more objectionable than any bad language if its taken literally.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2010, 01:47:24 pm
content: colourful language aside she clearly demonstrates the fundamental difference in mindsets between hardware and software people.Software people tend to 'grow' there project from a vague idea to a final product refining as they go getting small code snippets working and linking them together.A hardware person distills there project from a 'blackbox' and works backwards to component level.That very rare beast, a software AND hardware person is what you really need but for some reason they are not encouraged (or more correctly not trained ) and in a lot of cases are physically separated, the hardware boys on one floor the software people on another.Always found that really strange but being a maintenance/service guy I am looking at this from the outside so could be missing something.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2010, 03:10:48 pm
content: Sounds like she doesn't spend much time with 'normal' people. If this is the same Amanda Woz, she's from MIT, got her MS from Harvard in EE, and held EE jobs in the best companies.http://www.linkedin.com/in/avwozniak

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2010, 03:54:56 pm
content: In my opinion she's a classic example of a talented engineer that you hire and then lock into one of the labs, never letting her get anywhere near your customers, clients, or management.Actually, these days in business (and even on the factory floor) that sort of language can get you written up and even fired for creating a "hostile work environment". Folks have been fired for much less.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 02:01:59 am
content: Quote from: JohnS_AZ on November 09, 2010, 03:54:56 pmVery good points. Someone could be the best engineer in the organisation, but if they curse or say the wrong thing in front of the wrong person - bang - they're gone. At my university they now have a compulsory "business etiquette" course for some majors, teaching how to behave in meetings, networking and so on. Not a bad idea.

author: blackfin76
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 09:50:23 am
content: Quote from: JohnS_AZ on November 09, 2010, 03:54:56 pmI think it depends on the culture, here in the Netherlands this kind of behaviour would not get any engineer into serious problems... unless you work for a bank or insurance company. They need to be nice to their customers to sucker them into their fraudulent schemes

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 10:18:55 am
content: Quote from: saturation on November 09, 2010, 03:10:48 pmYes, that's her.She has actually emailed me and has explained the circumstances surrounding that presentation.Paraphrasing her reason for the language used:Most of the audience was people she knew, it was a small room at a hacker conference, and apparently the group of mostly software people who wanted/needed a basic presentation of what hardware engineering is, and what mistakes to avoid, as she was afraid this group was potentially very capable of making those same mistakes.It was also her first time going a presentation.It gather it was not a presentation aimed at a general audience.So there you go, the language and attitude becomes more understandable when taken into context of the situation.Dave.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 10:31:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2010, 10:18:55 amIf I have to grade her I say she passed with flying colours.

author: .o:0|O|0:o.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 10:36:40 am
content: ...And of course you can be infinitely more foul, vulgar, rude and hostile by using perfectly accepted words. At least that presentation didn't put me to sleep.The problem with designing from the end backwards is that you can only really do it if you have a certain degree of confidence and experience. I think newbies still have little choice but to build their efficiency gradually until they master the subject/process..o:0|O|0:o.P.s. If you thought that was fast talking:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OoGcBW2yE#ws

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 02:06:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2010, 10:18:55 amAww, too bad she didn't just get on the forum and explain it herself. :/

author: .o:0|O|0:o.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 02:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: Time on November 10, 2010, 02:06:50 pmMaybe she did but Dave had to remove the post and ban her ...prompting the phone call..o:0|O|0:o.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 08:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: .o:0|O|0:o. on November 10, 2010, 10:36:40 amEven a newbie needs to know what to it wanted. It is a lot easier if you define what it wanted before you start. Otherwise you end up with the following;Launch = T -12 monthsMarketing give Engineering the specLaunch = T -11 months, 30 days -Engineering go back to marketing saying "Are you you sure you don't want feature X? The last device had it" Marketing weasel “We don't want it – it isn't used by the industry any more”Launch = T – 3 months Beta build and pre-qualification meetingEngineering "Are you you sure you don't want feature X? It will be at least a months work to retrofit." Marketing weasel “We don't want it – it isn't used by the industry any more”Launch = T – 2 days Marketing weasel “I have some results from the Beta trials. We want feature X for launch”Should be a Dilbert – it happened to me today.Neil

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 09:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: Time on November 10, 2010, 02:06:50 pmWhy should she have to join a forum just to explain herself to a few people who are having a whinge about the style of her content?Should she join Adafruit and all the blogs the video was posted on and explain herself there too?Those that don't like the quality of content should go out there and produce their own content and show us all how it's done.Dave.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 09:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2010, 09:26:19 pmWell She obviously felt the need to email you.This is the trouble with the Internet you can be examined in microcosm over something you considered private or informal, all you can do is grow a thick skin (or stay off the net) I would love her to join the forum as she has obvious passion ,skill, and experience with electronics which we can all learn from.Perhaps some people on this forum could Take the same advice and grow that extra epidermal layer.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 09:56:03 pm
content: She doesn't have to. It just would have been cooler. If you read anything I said about her I was praising her anways.

author: JohnS_AZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 10:02:34 pm
content: I don't think she has anything to explain to us. It -would- be cool to have her on the forums however, vocabulary aside, she does seem to be "one of us".

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 10:48:25 pm
content: I find it refreshing to have a person who can talk like that, I would have been offended by her language when I was younger but I now find it, well not much of a problem. The reason I think my mind has changed is that it was my upbringing and social brainwashing to find language offensive. I now find PC (political correctness crap) more of a problem. The history and my culture which I have been in is a mix of styles of language.We should not be so sad as to take offense. Its not directed at a person as an assault but as an expression of emotion, its human and good to have emotion. Fuck we are free to say what we like I hope, I fear a future of correctness a lot more.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2010, 11:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on November 10, 2010, 09:55:03 pmNo, she emailed me to say she liked my blog. Didn't even mention the video or comments.It's only when I mentioned we talked about the comments on her video on The Amp Hour that she responded with the background and context to the presentation.It's likely she doesn't even know this forum exists.Dave.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2010, 05:00:57 am
content: To be honest, whilst I might not like it, I would rather have good honest expletives than the endless management jargon and Health and Safety rubbish that they pollute our lives with nowadays!

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2010, 11:35:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2010, 11:26:40 pmIt would be nice if you could invite her on to Amp hour and let her express herself in a less stressful atmosphere. She seems a very knowledgeable person.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2010, 12:53:57 pm
content: While her language could be offensive in certain quarters, I too feel her presentation was:passionateknowledgeabledrivenShe'd make a fine addition to any EE forum or list.Bob Pease has always been passionate about his craft, and it shows in his talks and writings, but he was more careful in his language. Its the passion that makes EE interesting and vibrant.Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2010, 10:18:55 am

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2010, 04:03:44 pm
content: She'sguesting on Adafruit's webcasttonight.

author: tyblu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2010, 08:59:39 pm
content: I liked it. Too bad that she didn't mention any of the gEDA or KiCAD tools while gunning through the "crappy 15 year old CAD tools" part.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2010, 11:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: tyblu on November 13, 2010, 08:59:39 pmPrior impression maybe, open source tools tend to be one of the worst offenders in UI crappyness.

author: allanw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2010, 11:44:52 pm
content: A lot of the really expensive software EDA packages have crappy UI's too... Cadence has been my bane for the last few months.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2010, 10:40:26 am
content: Quote from: tyblu on November 13, 2010, 08:59:39 pmBut they have crappy GUI's, too. In fact, some really crappy ones. It is some kind of tradition. For whatever reason the open source tools copy the crap professional tool interfaces.E.g both gEDA and KiCAD copy the brain dead "first select the tool, then apply the tool to the object" mode of historic CAD systems. And these historic CAD systems tried to mimic the way draftsman had to work (fetch pen, draw line). But hello, we no longer deal with physical objects. Really, that "pen" in your CAD system is not a real pen, and needs not be fetched (selected) first and dropped after use.This is painful if you want to apply a series of operations to one object (e.g. to a schematic symbol). And applying a series to one object is what you typically want. E.g. select a schematic symbol, name it, rotate it, position it, apply a value to it, drop it at its place. You don't want to have a "move tool" to move an object, a "rotate tool" to rotate it, a "properties tool" to name it, etc. Instead, you want to apply a "move operation", a "rotate operation", etc. to a selected object. The modern way "select object, apply operations to it" would be much better.It is typical that EDA CAD tool GUIs are done by EEs. And most have no fscking clue how to even get the basics right. gEDA's PCB tool GUI, as well as almost every ones of KiCAD's popup windows are examples of not even getting the basics right. Basics like labeling the OK-Button with "OK" and placing it consistently at one (and only one) of the typical locations for an OK-Button. Or basics like using the right GUI widget for the right task, e.g. using a radio button for a "one out of several" selection, instead of strangely connected normal pushbuttons or checkboxes. Or graying out things if you have deselected them, or not using frames in a hopeless attempt to "organize" cluttered windows.There are many other issues, too. E.g. both assume a waterfall way of working. Roughly: Do schematic, assign footprints, then layout PCB. Good help you if you figure out during PCB layouting that you need to change the schematic, e.g. add a resistor or a binding post. Having to go back is not foreseen in this workflow. gEDA is even worse in this regard than KiCAD, due to gEDA's mix of file formats, which require intermediate file format converters, which are only one-way.