Siglent New SDS800X HD First Bactch Unboxing And Tests And Teardown ! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 04:10:07 am
content: DISCLAIMER: This is NOT my machine, and I DONT have real-life access to it. One of my friends purchased it and shared some test results. I own a DHO800 and do some noise compare.This post is more like a placeholder because I don't own this machine. But still, it is very interesting to see it compare against to the rigol.Update: This thread is updated at any time, so please check every post I made here, hope you have a good time while browsing this!

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 04:11:18 am
content: more

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 05:55:57 am
content: Rise Time (70MHz version, no hack)2.34ns3.4nsEdit: To see the "Real" rise time with flatten-top signal input, scroll down.

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 06:21:12 am
content: White Noise input, check frequency repone. I wonder why there is a bump at 300MHz(The second picture is SDS6204)

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 06:37:49 am
content: Port scan:PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION21/tcp open ftp vsftpd 3.0.380/tcp open http lighttpd 1.4.58111/tcp open rpcbind 2-4 (RPC #100000)5024/tcp open scpi-telnet?5025/tcp open scpi-raw?5900/tcp open vnc VNC (protocol 3.49192/tcp open unknown 1 (RPC #395185)Service Info: OS: Unix

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 06:39:50 am
content: 85ps fast edge, flat top input, front end response:Three machines: 70MHz sds800x hd, 2GHz sds6204, "10GHz Lecroy"Edit: The Lecroy photo was taken quite a long time ago, he forgot the bandwidth of itBut he told me the Lecroy has 40GSa/s samplerate, according to the rise time it measured, I assume this is an 8 or 13G model.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 08:03:27 am
content: What is the purpose of such "tests".If the purpose is entertaining, yes, that's fine.For example, the measurement of rise time without a flat top is... all know..Then Rigol noise is measured using AC RMS but Siglent noise is measured using (True)RMS.For compatability, Siglent noise measurement need use Stdev measurement instead of (True)RMS because true RMS also include DC offset. In Siglent, Stdev is for measure "AC" RMS. (In practice there is always some DC offset in system what is included in RMS)Btw, the SDS800 frequency response FFT image ... is ... an analog filter before the ADC, but then (obviously) there is also a digital filter after the ADC. (it can also see and deduce from that FFT image, because this BW shape would not be possible (at least in practice) to do it in the analog front end of an oscilloscope... see this bw shape)Let's return back to these and many others when can release real, carefully and somehow seriously made real tests what meet the basic requirements.Thanks for these pictures though. They were quite entertaining and funny.I wish a merry and happy Christmas!

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 08:27:07 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 24, 2023, 08:03:27 amYes it is. We are very excited and have lot fun to see how this new entry-level performs at some extreme conditions.Quote from: rf-loop on December 24, 2023, 08:03:27 amThanks for pointing it out.So that's why I attracted another 3 images of flat top signal response.The real rise time should be around 3.5ns.Quote from: rf-loop on December 24, 2023, 08:03:27 amThank you!

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 11:15:36 am
content: Funny... My friend told me they found an unusual internal noise peak on SDS6204.They expect to see a pretty much flat noise floor when input terminate with 50ohm. but that's not the case on SDS6204 (look at the pictures), you can see many peaks in the picture.Notice: I am just statement the fact they found on SDS6204, no personal opinion. And I know nothing about how the peaks formed. They plan to report it to Siglent.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 01:02:16 pm
content: Quote from: PELL on December 24, 2023, 04:10:07 amNice pictures, but you can only really test/compare something 1:1 and in "real life".And a comparison requires the same conditions, otherwise it won't work anyway.That's why I'm going to keep my DHO for now, just in case the 800X HD is the model that will be released here in 2,3 months.Then I'll have it too.Edit:@PELL:SDS6000 things can be better posted here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000-pro-10-and-12-bit-dso-coming/msg5166129/#msg5166129

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 01:08:11 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 24, 2023, 01:02:16 pmThanks!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 01:30:01 pm
content: As a Rigol owner I have to say those traces look quite thick.And the UI looks primitive.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 01:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2023, 01:30:01 pmSuch a classy and eloquent statement!!You have nothing else to say coming here?Something actually relevant?

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 04:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 24, 2023, 01:35:28 pmYou just don't understand, it doesn't have that vintage android 2.3 look.just add him to the ignore list and forget about it

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 04:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on December 24, 2023, 04:32:56 pmYou know what, you are correct on both points!!Thank you !Merry Christmas!!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 06:46:29 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 24, 2023, 01:35:28 pmIt's an "unboxing", so.... first impressions: Thick traces and a pixelated font.Don't tell me you looked at that screenshot and said "Wow!"and what's with the silly text?And that table of peaks? Ew!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 07:05:43 pm
content: My first impression when I saw this screenshot was mediocre graphics with 20 year old gradient designs; somehow both pixelated and unclear; plus wasted real estate for bad Rigol logos. 2004 is calling, they want their lame tab designs back.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 07:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 24, 2023, 07:05:43 pmAs an owner of a DHO1074 and a longtime software engineer, I concur. I much prefer the Siglent UI.Don't get me wrong: For what I paid for the DHO on the BF sale, it's a helluva bargain and I'm not disappointed in it at all. But if/when Siglent releases their 1000HD series at a price point approaching the DHO1000 (MSRP, even), I'll most likely sell the DHO and buy the Siglent.

author: sonpul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 07:35:09 pm
content: The main reason why I will not consider buying Rigol DHO is the interface.And today's images of Siglent only convinced me of this idea. Silent, strict and laconic Siglent.Can I reconsider my opinion, but for now I associate the entire style of the DHO interface with this screenshot. And this is unbearable for me.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 07:45:10 pm
content: You can argue about the color gradients but there's no excuse for the pixelated fonts.The text readability on the Rigol is awesome.The windows are really useful.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 07:56:50 pm
content: I'd argue with you.The Siglent fonts are entirely readable. The Rigol fonts are able to take advantage of built-in font handling and smoothing built-in to Android. Siglent uses their own custom OS/graphics and evidently did not see the need to write their own font smoothing algorithms, and I can't say I blame them. Quality of Siglent software overall has always felt more solid to me.Rigol makes some excellent hardware, no doubt. I love the big, crisp screen on the DHO1074, and likely wouldn't trade it in for the smaller screen of the SDS800X. That's why I'd be holding out for a comparably priced 1000X HD.Rigol took a shortcut in using Android, and I have no problem with that either -- as long as the OS is stable and the scope software written for it is rock solid. I much prefer Android it to the old scopes running embedded Windows and floppy drives. But Rigol's scope software feels pretty much beta quality compared to Siglent.All that said, kudos to Rigol for being first to market in this affordable 12-bit space (much as they were with the DS1054) and no doubt pushing Siglent to compete. I'd argue they both (as well as their respective fanboys) have something to learn from each other with regards to the entry/hobbyist market.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 08:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2023, 01:30:01 pmYou definitely beat the hell out of tautech in selling Siglents! I respect your resilience but I come to the conclusion that there is no better Siglent salesman in this forum as you.(I admit that sometimes you also sell some Rigols.)Merry Christmas to the Forum!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 08:28:12 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 24, 2023, 08:25:20 pmMerry Christmas to everybody!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 11:34:37 pm
content: Quote from: sonpul on December 24, 2023, 07:35:09 pmThat's funny, I particularly like the user interface of the DHO, I like it when everything important can be selected at a glance and you don't have to get lost in sub-sub-sub-menus or scroll to find all the functions of the respective menu.You can argue about the graphic design, but that's secondary, at least for me.Quote from: FungusYou'd think you hadn't had/tested many scopes as often as you throw around superlatives about the DHO.Text is rather unimportant for a device that is supposed to display signal curves.QuoteYes and no.First of all, you have to respect the fact that Rigol has introduced something like this in this price range - unique.But as is almost always the case with Rigol, not consistently thought through to the end.These windows have fixed positions at which they can be moved and fixed sizes that cannot be changed.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2023, 12:08:22 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 24, 2023, 11:34:37 pmAnd show numerical information about those curves.You yourself said you like the colors of the Rigol's table views.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2023, 12:19:08 am
content: Yes, I like the color differentiation in the tables much more,in the exampleit simply fits better than the dark/not quite so dark display in Siglent.

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 12:53:45 pm
content: Update: This scope is hackable, and it is surprisingly simple: just use Siglent keygen you can find on the forum (although I don't know which keygen exactly)SDS804X ---> SDS824X, 50Mpts ---> 100Mpts mem-depth, 70M ---> 200M bandwidth.The mem-depth is real, you can export a nearly 200MBytes binary wave file, which, you know 100Mpts*12bits/8 = 150MBytes

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 01:04:40 pm
content: So this answers one of the main SDS800x-HD thread questions. Full memdepth and bandwith do not depend on hardware differences, only software. At least on this early hardware revision.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 01:21:26 pm
content: They won't go to the trouble of producing different hardware configurations now either, as this would probably be counterproductive in view of the targeted price range.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 01:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: PELL on December 26, 2023, 12:53:45 pmStill you use RMS for measure noise. (even if input coupling is AC but your measurement is True RMS from data after ADC.For base noise measurement you need use Stdev (aka AC RMS and this is now AC RMS from data after ADC)I have not time to demonstrate now all how it can affect in different signal situations.In this particular case there is only but least internal DC offset residue.Right way isStdev.Here example: (not current SDS800X HD or current SDS1000X HD)Now DC coupled input ... no big effect. But clear difference still between RMS and ACRMSThen note, this is 200MHz BW.. for compare different oscilloscopes with different BW we can use 20MHz BW what is available in every scope and then compare these (if scopes full BW's are different...as we know noise rise (part of total noise least) when BW rise...independent of oscilloscope brand etc)Ch1 full BW: RMS, ACRMS (stdev), Ch4: 20M BW, RMS, ACRMS (stdev)then just other sampleNote also here small but clearly visible DC offset in Ch4 (what is included in RMS of course but removed from Stdev (AC RMS)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 02:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: PELL on December 26, 2023, 12:53:45 pmWhat is the SCPI answer to?:syst:board?

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 03:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 26, 2023, 01:38:24 pmI am sorry, forgot to tell my friend about this.Will try to get it right next time

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 03:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 26, 2023, 02:31:09 pmWill try. I probably tell my friend to register an account on this forum and see if he have some free time to get this. Because he is quite busy recently preparing for term exams.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 11:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: PELL on December 26, 2023, 12:53:45 pmYes early SDS1000X HD also.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:17:17 am
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on December 24, 2023, 07:56:50 pmWith the SDS800X HD, I have some doubts as to whether the Scope is the answer to Rigol's DHO 800.As a rule, development takes quite a long time, all the longer the more one is concerned with bringing a product onto the market that is as finished as possible, which can certainly be attributed to Siglent.In the meantime, the Siglent 800 is apparently available on the Chinese market - does anyone here really believe that Siglent can bring a completely new 12-bit scope in the 7" screen size class onto the market just 3 months after the global launch of the DHO800/900 series?

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:36:50 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 27, 2023, 12:17:17 amWell no doubt this has been in Siglent's pipeline for some time. They didn't just start working on it after Rigol released the DHO800/900 series. Rigol just beat them to market, and as you point out, Siglent seems more likely to release a more finished product rather than rush things just to get to market first. For all we know they've been working on it as long or longer than Rigol was.That said, being 2nd to market brings some advantages -- you get to see what the market response was to the 1st, and to focus on filling any glaring gaps the competitor either didn't consider or thought were unimportant. So you can distinguish your release from theirs and take market share. This healthy competition creates an oscillation effect that motivates each to improve their designs, which is good for all of us. The entry/hobbyist market is much more constrained by margins than the high cost pro market, so their profit motivator is getting and maintaining volume. They can't afford to sit around.I hope it doesn't happen, but at some point Siglent may decide the economics just don't justify the cutthroat hobbyist market and may forfeit the low end to Rigol, Hantek, FNIRSI, et al, while shifting more towards the pro or "A" brand market where they can demand higher prices. They already seem to have a considerably higher premium product line than Rgol does. I do hope they stay competitive in the hobbyist/maker space though, as I really like their products and again, I'd expect Rigol to feel more pressure from Siglent than they do the cheaper Chinese brands mentioned. Rigol might get lazy if all they have to "be better than" is Hantek or FNIRSI.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:41:57 am
content: It would be very bad news if either Siglent of Rigol won the economic race grounding the other.

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:09:42 am
content: Update:@rf-loop I think this time we are getting the true result, and it also the same as Siglent marketing "under 70uV noise at full bandwidth"Also I noticed the CH3 noise is much smaller than others@tv84: The SCPI command return a board version, see in the picture

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 08:07:13 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 27, 2023, 05:09:42 amYes. Thank you.CH3 noise is naturally more low than others because CH3 is set for 20MHz BW when others have full BWWhen there is wide bandwidth random noise and we then reduce bandwidth... if we half BW noise drops 3dB but in practice not perfectly because there in oscilloscope is not only "ideal" flat white noise.... there is more things what affect here.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 09:53:18 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 27, 2023, 05:09:42 amThat shows that the scope uses the public keygen.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 10:00:43 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 27, 2023, 09:53:18 amAnd also that it could be updated at any time to use the dynamic key? Or that doesn't follow?

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 10:01:05 am
content: Update: 350M bandwidth white noise input to check frequency repones after hacking the scope to 200MThe -3dB point is around 250MHz I guess?Edit: Also notice, that the input is terminated with a pretty low-quality external 50ohm connector, which causes some roughness to the input signal

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 10:23:09 am
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 27, 2023, 10:00:43 amIMHO, that's correct but not necessarily a must.Nonetheless, that has also been accommodated.

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 10:59:56 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 27, 2023, 08:07:13 amWhy only Ch3 what made no sense IMHO, as IMHO CH3 & Ch4 may acting equal or not??Hp

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:53:51 am
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on December 27, 2023, 12:36:50 amI find your analysis quite astute and I would like to add few points.At this point it is clear that both of these 2 manufacturers already made their choices. They both are willing to provide equipment in what is called entry level segment. But Rigol decided to approach it as if it were a consumer products and target aggressively the hobby segment with less capable/less finished(refined?) products and lowest possible price. Siglent obviously, like you said, already behaves like A- manufacturer in many regards and tries to make serious instruments, even when they are entry level. Because of that they can command slightly higher price, because, they are basically not competing against cheapest Rigol offerings but A brands entry level gamut. Where Siglent is the one with better features and still much lower price.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:55:46 am
content: Quote from: hpw on December 27, 2023, 10:59:56 amHe enabled 20MHz BW limit on CH3. What is your question? Please explain a bit.

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:44:48 pm
content: ok,4 channels always active so BW limits for each channel even all 4 active.While on some LeCroy WM, selecting 20Gs only 2 channels are active.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:00:10 pm
content: Quote from: hpw on December 27, 2023, 12:44:48 pm20MHz is standard BW limit option on channels that all scopes have.SDS800X HD samplesOne channel mode: 2 GSa/s,Two channel mode: 1 GSa/s,Four channel mode: 500 MSa/sEven 200MHz version is always 200MHz regardless of number of channels being used.

author: Randy222
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 03:26:58 pm
content: I see this is a Siglent thread, along with the siglent vs rigol chatter.It's not a compare thread.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: Randy222 on December 27, 2023, 03:26:58 pmIt doesn't really matter what you or I see this thread as..Only matter what OP had intended this thread for and clearly also highlights it as a compare thread, where he wanna show how this new Siglent stacks up, from being around people that got access to one - and can test things against other models and take inquiries for certain tests.Quote from: PELL on December 24, 2023, 04:10:07 am

author: Randy222
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 06:04:47 pm
content: Quote from: DaneLaw on December 27, 2023, 05:34:27 pmWell, if compare, then the best way is to rank compares by category. Colors and text fonts don't mean too much.Having a scope that can display signals correctly / accurately along with any applied analysis & math functions, low noise floor, etc, is most important. Then add on other features like Bode and what-not.The actual name on the plastic don't mean so much these days. The value comes from the "display signals correctly / accurately along with any applied analysis, low noise floor, etc, is most important." plus cost.I don't care too much about crappy fonts and silly colors if the thing can provide good scope analysis without bugs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 07:45:07 am
content: Quote from: Randy222 on December 27, 2023, 06:04:47 pmIt's 2023, there's no reason not to have both.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 07:48:34 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2023, 07:45:07 amYou know what, you are absolutely correct!!!You should go and post that advice in Rigol bug topics...

author: Randy222
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 05:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2023, 07:45:07 amI use a really good BenQ monitor, made several years ago, and in 2023 there's a better one to buy.Compare Analysis does not work when every metric possible is ranked the highest on the list.It's almost like trueHD vs 4k vs 8k video. What good is 8k video if the panel is only 4k native, yet you still get to see a picture, just not in 8k.Colors and fonts have to be readable, and colors should not be 256 shades of grayscale, etc.Actual signal processing holds highest weight. Math functions will have their weight too, like Bode probably not as important as a good implementation of FFT.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 06:47:10 pm
content: Quote from: Randy222 on December 28, 2023, 05:19:47 pmMath is signal processing.Both Bode and FFT is exactly the same as on SDS200X HD.

author: Serg65536
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 07:09:28 pm
content: Siglent marketing director to customer on Christmas:- Don't buy rigol, we have such a good scope for you.... in 4 month...- And what's the price?!- We can't tell you... because... because... cuz... you shouldn't buy Rigol that's all!This thing is significantly better than previous Siglent entry level scopes, does somebody hope to buy it cheaper than SDS1000X-E?

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 08:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 28, 2023, 07:48:34 amI take it you didn't follow my advice

author: ZigmundRat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 09:18:30 pm
content: As someone who’s worked for equipment vendors, I can confirm that it is of NO benefit to announce something and then not deliver it for months on end. Where’s the 1000X HD? Announced the end of March and still unavailable (at least here in the west). Sure it creates some buzz, but that turns to disappointment. That in turn leaves customers with a lack of confidence in the company. Maybe they will do better with the 800X HD, but who knows? Would you rather have a ‘scope on your bench from another vendor (even with a few bugs) or an empty spot with a card that says “future site of vapor ware scope”?Glad you have been able to get a look at one of these. The rest of us with a more immediate need will just have to buy something else.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 09:19:58 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 27, 2023, 12:17:17 amMartin, do you believe that the first time Siglent knew about that scope, it was when they released it?Keep in mind, there is a crazy high turnover rate in China, 20%, with only so many companies to work for in the sector, so they don't even need espionage to get informed about these things in advance, just hire some people.I could guarantee they knew each other's release schedule better than the marketing people at those companies. Even in Europe I now what my competitor is doing.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 09:39:09 pm
content: QuoteI didn´t say that.I had said that it is unlikely that they only reacted when the cat was out of the bag.The time was too short for that, they will have known from each other that the other had something in the pipeline in terms of an entry-level scope with 12 bit.And the first one on the market with it has apparent advantages.And since rigol doesn't care whether something comes onto the market half-finished, they were the first.You could make it up like that, but nobody knows for sure.Except for the latter with the semi-finished products.

author: Randy222
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 09:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: ZigmundRat on December 29, 2023, 09:18:30 pmI have a paid-for CAD app, vendor announced new version about 6mo prior, one of those "coming summer of...". 1yr went by and nothing. They did eventually make new release, which had some nifty bugs in it. But, seems vendors do it all the time.I prefer a vendor to stick with a model line and improve it over a few years, and along side that drum up new items with newere IC's and such, then relase new items when it's ready.DHO800/900 series, should just stay a DHO800/900 series until all the bugs are fixed 100%. This process takes 1-2yrs, but at least you get updates to make the item more rock solid. Then later when a new item comes, which will come with bugs, end-user decides to buy the new shiny thing, or wait until some bugs are fixed.It's the same for auto makers. Toyota has generational platforms. When a new platorm comes out for same model, best not to buy 1st year new gen, wait at least 1yr for all the new bugs to get fixed.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 10:08:07 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on December 29, 2023, 08:59:06 pmI actually did.... Life is much better now..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 10:15:45 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 29, 2023, 09:19:58 pmIt is is Rigol who is catching up. Siglent has been making 12bit scopes for years now, just not the cheap ones.I agree that people in these factories do know a lot. It is their business.Also, as in your industry, there are clear trends, and most manufacturers will move in similar direction.They will differ in technology and strategy though.

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 03:06:50 am
content: Update: I have some really funny teardown photos of SDS800X HD thanks to one of my other friends (QQ 2983219855)Here you go!I did not expect Siglent to use 2 ADCs and a ZYNQ Ultrascale, both are quite expensive. The ADC heat spreader was glued but it looks like the ADC12D500 or ADC12D1000Edit: both XCZU2CG and ADC12D500 digikey quote around 400 USD.... I mean, surely Siglent certainly didn't pay that much, but it is still quite an expensive part in the scope, and this makes me wonder how much Siglent will earn from this scope per unit.

author: sebyon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 04:37:19 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 30, 2023, 03:06:50 amProbably the ADC12D500 given the "expected" price bracket and performance for the scope as the ADC12D1000 is almost double the price. Even with bulk discount the 1000 is an expensive part.Still, it's a good sign.

author: Wintel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 08:09:52 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 27, 2023, 10:01:05 amSDS804X HD hackable? Would you ask which keygen support SDS804X HD?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 08:59:59 am
content: This info has already been posted.V1

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 09:23:19 am
content: Quote from: PELL on December 30, 2023, 03:06:50 amThey haven't announced the final selling price yet, so...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 09:43:15 am
content: Quote from: Wintel on December 30, 2023, 08:09:52 amAnother "friend" got a bit lost and wanted to post it here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds800x-hd-12-bit-dsos-coming/msg5249151/#msg5249151

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 10:25:24 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 30, 2023, 09:23:19 amThey have already published final selling price time ago. Just go to China and buy. Price differences inside China vs Outside of China, the periphery, is not very relevant if think BOM. . Do you somehow "think" (in this context) that hardware BOM is different in these units what they sell in China.The structure of the sales price formation outside of China is just different, although the product manufacturing cost is the same.

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 10:39:40 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 30, 2023, 09:43:15 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds-sdg-hack-script/Just follow the instructions inside, put your scope id, SN, model in and run the script

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 10:53:52 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 30, 2023, 10:25:24 amSo how much is one of these in Euros...?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 01:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 30, 2023, 10:53:52 amPerhaps next you ask is how to use internet...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 02:03:38 pm
content: https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds800hd/I think "Tax included" is a translation error in the column with the prices(had the page translated into english)And even then the prices would be really, really humane...

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 02:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 30, 2023, 02:03:38 pmWith these consumer prices least I can, as citizen people, buy these using my Jingdong or Taobao.Just tried buy SDS824X HD using my Jingdong but I stopped the purchase transaction without making the final 4772 RMB transfer (this price if I pay directly from BOC).

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 02:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 30, 2023, 02:03:38 pmThat's actually correct. we usually add up the tax into the raw price and show the final you would pay.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 02:55:28 pm
content: If these prices were to apply anywhere near as much to the rest of the world later on, especially in Europe.... goodness.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 03:00:02 pm
content: Quote from: PELL on December 30, 2023, 02:33:14 pmHere it is often done in consumer oriented sales, and omitted on professional sales.In any case, the rest of siglent.com Yuan prices indicate that european VAT is added on top of the displayed price, whether it already has taxes in China or not.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 04:54:09 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 30, 2023, 03:00:02 pmWell, first of all, VAT is much lower in China than evenVAT in Germany, which is also quite low.Secondly, the fact that they can be brought here, stored and sold here creates quite a few expenses. Here you also have to invest in their warranty service. The fact that we have something in a carton box is not a product when we talk about measuring devices. The product contains a whole bunch of things other than what is packed in the box. Of course, those many other things are not visible to the buyer of the box and are almost always not actualized anyway. But that cost structure is still there in the background.But ok, export from China, there is no China VAT, so Export prices are 0 VAT. But then they are sold here... here we add our VAT.Price just can not be China Export price added with our VAT. No one do free work and also there is not other kind of free lounges.There need many peopels work and every worker want salary. Also there is many other cost.If you stack all individual cost slices... over EXW or FOB ... Even every cubic meter in the warehouse has a price, and when you insure and guard them, it also has a price... in fact, everything has a price... even the pencil with which the warehouseman writes something on the post-it note has a price... and even the warehouse secretary's common cold vacation has its own price. Even warehouse cleaning work have its price.Yes, all expenses are added to that price, absolutely everything, including the amount that is desired as a return on the capital invested in the activity. .and finally after whole all also local VAT...

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 06:24:18 pm
content: Yes, I do understand the fact that BOM, plus manufacturing and development, plus manufacturer's cut is only part of all the costs involved in putting a product to it's final use. Europe is also quite problematic in terms of compliance, warranty, import taxes etc. The cost includes, of course, support, broadly speaking.I do value a lot buying from a seller that knows the product, is able to offer guidance, is transparent about delivery time and doesn't wash his hands if something goes wrong.I'm quite willing to pay a premium on the price of something to get good support, and that is why I only buy dirt cheap stuff from places like Amazon and Aliexpress, and try to support good business models. Sadly, I have yet to find that here in Spain, will try again If/when the SDS1000X-HD is released.I was making an observation about the usual equivalence in Siglent.com prices vs EU, but I was wrong, and it seems like they fluctuate a lot:- SDS2104X-PLUS: € 1,467.07 (Current exchange rate YUAN-EURO) That's european price VAT included, more or less.- SDS2104X-HD: €1,722.66halfthe european price. This was unexpected.- SDS1104X-E: € 674.75200 buckshigher than EU MSRP. Also unexpected.- SDS7000A H12. It seems to be free at Siglent.com, or maybe priceless- SDM3065X. € 1,058.13. €230 more expensive than EU.There doesn't seems to be any kind of correlation between prices, except for the 2104 plus. The price could be anywhere, really, and if the ratio follows the 2000X-HD (Lecroy partnership terms?) we are in for a surprise. This gets more and more excitingCertainly, at €300 VAT included, i would buy a SDS800X-HD in a heartbeat. and maybe later a 1000X-HD, but there is no way that price is coming to the west. It would have to cost 200 bucks for the retailers.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 09:37:56 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 30, 2023, 06:24:18 pmI don't find it surprising, the EU price is bad value for such a scope. Suddenly at 2K, with some upgrade leaks the scope would make a lot more sense. The only option for now is to vote with your wallet.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 09:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 30, 2023, 09:37:56 pmWell yes, maybe I should have phrased it the other way around, I'm surprised it costs twice as much here, although I'm not so sure about the value being bad at all (assuming a few upgrades), as there really is not much competition going against it.What surprises me more is the fact that between the 2000 plus and the HD there is only 300 bucks difference.The HD is significantly better in many regards, and quite a bit more powerful.I mean, the 2000X-HD could be well worth € 300 more than the 2000X-Plus even if it had an 8 bit ADC. I would be surprised if they sell many 2000X+ in China at all, unless the hack is not known there.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 11:06:04 pm
content: QuoteIt is actually still too cheap for what it has and can do.It completely outperforms the RTB2000 series and in parts even the Waverunner 4000HD from Lecroy.I don't know what yardstick you're using to say that the price is too high.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 12:05:05 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 30, 2023, 11:06:04 pmHow is it too cheap?.. Do you want more mock-up on the EU price on this Siglent scope vs the rest of the world's prices, because what?You like the brand, or you purchased that model, - it can also get to ludicris with EU region mockups, in regards to what the rest of the globe pays for the same unit, and that's a shame for the attractive units, and undermine all parties.Thx for the region-compare Antonio90, always interesting to sense differences across regions, even though they will fluctuate quite a bit from other factors - like many items tends do these years.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 12:44:16 am
content: I had paid even more because that was the price.And even for that, it was still a price breaker.And the prices were the same as in China, the reductions have probably only happened recently.I think it's pointless to get worked up about the fact that it's somehow (become) cheaper somewhere else.Somewhere else is not here.Batronix has a best price guarantee, tell them, in China the model is now available for 1000 less, you would like to have the same price.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 01:52:21 am
content: We can also relate to this, or at least some reference to the performance value ratio.When we decided on the Siglent SDS2000X+ a few years back after digesting all the various +- postings, vendor fan folks, and figuring out the folks that actually knew what they were taking about (very few unfortunately), this was our first out-of-pocket paid DSO/MSO. Before retiring and starting The Labs, our experience was with all the "A" brands, so baseline reference was high performance, high $ equipment.Honestly we were stunned with this DSO/MSO for the $, and paid full price, with no regrets, even acquiring another at full $. Recall stating that it was worth 2~3X the MSRP, it was that good!! Then Siglent introduces the 12 bit version with added features and faster processing!! Then Rigol introduces the little 12 bit DHO800, and this is a nice little low cost entry level DSO with 12 bit ADCs and such, which we evaluated for a client to use with their product (they needed a small form factor with VEAS mount).Now Siglent prepares the release of the new 12 bit SDS800X-HD that evidently (from tear down) has dual ADCs and a pretty quick FPGA, and has all the features/performance of the SDS2000X+ with additional features at 12 bits, and an apparent price point (even if 2X) that is just amazing!! There's a boat load of technology within these scopes, more than any of us could even fathom a few years ago, more than any of us will likely use (or totally understand), and apparently for the price of a mid-level lab power supply!!We now have these high performing 12 bit scopes in various flavors from quality OEMs Rigol and Siglent, that just plane kick arse!! What is there to complain about, unless well, someone just picked up a Owon, Hantek, or FnirsiBest,

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 02:28:03 am
content: Took a look at Taobao with all their infamous babies they wanna sell (translate chananagang)Usually, you can sense the inner value, what a given product is being sold for alongside price reductions.SDS2104X-HD seems to be around 22.880CNY (2900euro) though there are two listings at 13.800 CNY (1750 euros)- but I aint logged in, so not sure if there is a lesser variant stacked in those listings as it is quite a bit lower.Siglent.com aint to happy about accessing their Chinese region, and tends to flip you back to int or eu.But the stated price listed above #81  does seem weirdly low for the SDS2104X-HD.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 03:24:59 am
content: Yes, slowly but surely we are being geofenced from access to the .com website.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 08:39:56 am
content: Quote from: DaneLaw on December 31, 2023, 02:28:03 amThe price was just the result of googling 13.800 CNY to EUR while writing the post.Maybe there was a low peak in exchange rate? Or a typo on my end.In any case, Siglent.com has 13.800 CNY as the price.EDIT: it was nothalf, but € 190-220 more than half, depending on the VAT rates of each country, at the googled exchange.And, in any case, I just said I was surprised. At €300 more than the plus I just think the plus makes no sensein China, that's all. The HD is a strict upgrade. 4 math channels, 12 bits, zone trigger, you can pan the waveform along full memory without delays, digital filters, and probably quite a bit more.At the current price it has no competition here, but, like the SDS800X-HD, the chinese pricing is just nuts.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 08:46:30 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 30, 2023, 11:06:04 pmIt's a 100MHz scope for 3000 EUR.Rigol has the DHO4204 twice the speed for the same price.Certiprime MSOX2024A will get you twice the speed and logic probe for less.PicoScope 5444D with up to 16 bits, Wavegen, LA for the same price.You can spin this all you want, but it's not a good price for a crippled 100MHz Chinese scope, with expensive options.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 09:00:18 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 31, 2023, 08:46:30 amBut it is a bit like the MSO5074 for € 1000, isn't it? A 70MHz scope after all, nobody pays so much for 70MHz.And Martin has a 500MHz 12bit scope, quite fully featured for 3.000. I don't think that's a bad price at all.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 09:12:48 am
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 31, 2023, 09:00:18 amMSO5074 is great price. The hacks for the SDS-HD aren't available publicly, soyouget the scope you ordered.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 09:52:15 am
content: Unless you speak nicely to some knowledgeable folks here

author: Serg65536
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 10:48:29 am
content: So now we have a peculiar situation: the Siglent SDS804X HD (304 euro)is both much cheaper and much better than SDS1104X-E(407 euro).There's obviously something wrong with the situation!And here is the most probable outcomes:1) The release price will be slightly higher than 407 euro (507, for eg.)2) The Siglent SDS804X HD has some critical performance issues (as Rigol DHO804 does).3) The price of SDS1104X-E will be significantly reduced (probability ~ 0.0001%)My guess - something between 1) and 2) in proportion 80% to 20% respectively.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 11:23:09 am
content: Gentlemen, as long as there is no price for western markets, any comparison is nonsense."Ah, but I can buy it online in China and send it over..." Sure but, bypassing the legal matters, then at least you must add the S/H and VAT.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 11:39:15 am
content: earlier:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-just-drop-its-mic-new-sds800hd-12bit-scope-crazy-price-leaked/msg5210769/#msg5210769now (tax included?):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-new-sds800x-hd-first-bactch-unboxing-and-noise-compare-with-dho800/msg5249739/#msg5249739

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 12:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 31, 2023, 08:46:30 amThat’s about the only valid comparison. Yes, you currently can save a little money with the DHO - if you don’t value useful FFT and Bode Plot.Quote from: tszaboo on December 31, 2023, 08:46:30 amSo you’re throwing in aused8 bit(!) entry level scope, limited to 200 MHz max. with short memory, heavily decimated measurements and short FFT, without 50 ohm inputs, with poor sensitivity (everything below 4 mV/div is just fake) and only 5 digits frequency counter, that lacks history mode and where even basic features like mask testing, segmented memory or basic decoders are (expensive) options? Seriously?Quote from: tszaboo on December 31, 2023, 08:46:30 amThe picoscope is something completely different. It has no power supply, no front panel and no screen and requires some computer to be operated. It is unique in having some mid-range or even high-end features, yet it also has some major drawbacks at the same time, like the lack of intensity/color-grading (the dedicated persistence mode isn’t a viable substitute), lack of 50 ohm inputs, limited measurement statistics and history count, and last not least the intransparent and inflexible acquisition (you have absolutely no control) – just the price you pay for an USB scope.The resolution enhancement, even though it’s a hardware feature, cannot compete with the real thing, like any true 12 bit scope from the 4000A series. You cannot have full resolution/full sample rate at the same time and the actual dynamic range is nowhere near what could be expected from a high-definition scope.The digital channels are just a bunch of short wires with a female single pin plug, only usable with small circuits that can be placed very close to the scope. Hardly comparable to a professional solution like the Siglent SPL2016.Quote from: tszaboo on December 31, 2023, 08:46:30 amYes, you can spin this all you want, but up to recently there just was no competition to the SDS2000X HD. Now the DHO4000 could be, but there’s more to that than just some banner specs.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 12:40:41 pm
content: Picoscope 5K are excellent versatile tools, but I mostly agree about the limitations you mention, except perhaps...Quote from: Performa01 on December 31, 2023, 12:14:53 pmPicoscope 7 software example:..and I don't understand your reasoning for this statement:Quote

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 01:53:10 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 31, 2023, 11:23:09 amWhat legal matters?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 02:00:40 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on December 31, 2023, 12:40:41 pmI cannot speak as to what someone else meant, but I do know that variable res Picos (5444D for instance) in 16 bit mode don't approach dedicated 16 bit scope ENOB. Also even in 12 bit mode they have max sampling rate of 500 MS/s, that drops to 125 MS/s at 3+ channels used.Compare that to 12 bit scopes we are talking about here that will sample at worst case of 500MS/s and up to 2GS/s for cheapest SDS800XHD.Comparisons should be like for like.Of course a person can have simple needs and only priority could be, for instance, maximum BW. In which case you go get that at cheapest price and disregard resolution, math, measurements, statistics, bode, and all kinds of other analysis options.But if we are comparing, that "high BW and nothing else" scope is NOT the same as the one with full analysis options and capabilities.So if more advanced scope is much more expensive you make a decision to not pay for stuff you don't need and will never use and get simple high BW scope.Or if price difference is not much, you get better scope, even if you don't have immediate plans to use all of that. But it doesn't hurt to have more capability and who know maybe you will learn that it might be useful to you after all. If you can afford it, of course.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 02:02:01 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 31, 2023, 01:53:10 pm1st to mind: selling devices intended only for Chinese market to the outside. Don't say it's not a problem for the buyer, as I never said that.

author: points2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 02:13:40 pm
content: hi Mechatrommer,Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 31, 2023, 11:39:15 amthanks for presenting the prices in Euro...In Malaysia, you may buy thru tabao & get these scope @ chinese prices.In Europe (I guess in any western country), the custom will put the parcel aside, and prepare the bill to pay the duties... and if we don't pay this extra, the custom will keep this lovely scope. Hown much is this "extra" ? I don't know, but the final price will be far from your figures !It's pretty much like viewing a nice waveform on scope... but voltage is wrong because you set an attenuation 100:1 with your 10:1 probe !Thanks anyway.But I prefer to wait for the real prices from local resellersNice new year's eve to everyone !

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 02:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 31, 2023, 02:02:01 pmBut then you are assuming it is a problem for the seller without actually knowing making it speculation based on arbitrary assumptions.I mean I agree with you that comparing prices from Taobao to what is available makes no sense due to the effort and risk in buying that item (risk being, getting a brick instead of an item, getting something else, not getting the item, warranty claims, list goes on).But legally from the buyer there is no problem, I can write a blog post about this but in the western world you'll make more progress hammering your head against a wall than trying to restrict a market and defending that in a court case.And legally from the seller's persective that is none of our business. Even if Siglent aren't happy with it, that isn't something they need to make our problem, that is their problem.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 02:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 31, 2023, 02:24:21 pmIn europe there is just no defense for a company trying to forbid or punish a customer for buying anything, anywhere, as long as it's not a legally forbidden/restricted good.That being said, not having legal coverage for warranty, returns or support, or legal standing to try and enforce it is a legal problem. It's not "problems with the law", though.Probably just linguistics.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 02:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on December 31, 2023, 02:51:10 pmExcept if it is music, movies, sports, etc. Then it is 100% ok to segment the world into zones so you can have different pricing and release dates. Lobbyism works well in the EU as well.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 03:04:24 pm
content: Quote from: baldurn on December 31, 2023, 02:55:54 pmWell, it's not exactly the same, but you are right, companies are winning in that regard. It remains to be seen whether they can actually forbide or punish you for purchasing outside your segment, legally speaking. In Europe TOS enforcement between companies and customers has not worked quite wellso far.If you want to fight against that just don't get into subscription models at all, they are a scam anyway.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 03:22:32 pm
content: Quote from: baldurn on December 31, 2023, 02:55:54 pmThe problem with this debate on a forum is that law is incredible nuanced and you are already mixing different definitions of goods from the legal perspective because to you are comparable.Physical goods, vs digital goods vs services.Streaming is a service and downloaded media are digital goods with copyright per country.Restriction of physical goods is thoroughly tested in the EU and US, you have no prospect of success and doing a quick google the last company to try this was against Amazon. They weren't even granted an appeal (in the EU) on the grounds that they have no prospect of success.If you have a movie/CD/etc. as physical media, then the region restriction again is not enforceable (the companies tried that).You'd need to prove it is fake or stolen, ie. crime or infringing on trademark. Else you are trying to argue to restrict a free market which is not only against EU law it is against international law.Law is highly nuanced and we can spend a lot of pages discussing it, there is a lot of case law you can freely browse on this if you are interested about physical goods.The only exceptions to physical goods is for example deemed exports in the US. Similar exists in the EU. Basically things the US deems critical to their safety and security. Trade secrets but at the spy level. I work for a large US conglomerate and for example I'm not allowed access to our drone technology because it is a deemed export. There is a list of these technologies you can browse. ASML was made a de-facto monopoly for example because of deemed exports.Anyway this is all OT, there is no legal boundry to buying from China. If you claim as such, link to the case or law explicitly.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 03:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 31, 2023, 03:22:32 pmThe restriction to sell CDs and DVDs imported from USA in the EU is explicitly encoded into EU law. It is not totally off topic because one need to understand the difference from that and to selling imported Siglent Scopes. The difference is simply that the movie industry lobbied to get an exception put into law.As you also might have noticed, DVDs have region encoding, such that devices sold in the EU even refuses to play imported DVDs from USA. That by itself would have been illegal if they did not have an exception to make it explicitly legal.It is very much enforceable and here (in Denmark) we had some large cases with import companies that got shut down.However equipment manufactures played the game of being easily hackable to break the system.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 03:52:43 pm
content: Quote from: baldurn on December 31, 2023, 03:47:35 pmCan you link to that?Quote from: baldurn on December 31, 2023, 03:47:35 pmBypassing the region restrictions on DVD could not be restricted based on the physical goods laws IIRC, they used the argument that bypassing the restriction was tantamount to hacking software. Again IIRC the case was against selling devices that bypassed the restriction, not the media itself.I did see that Denmark had some backwards law around this but I couldn't find a EU law that explicitly restricted sales of even DVDs based on region. I would love for a link to that.Far as I can tell the EU is strictly against it:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_region_code#Criticism_and_legal_concerns(I know this is wikipedia but I can't find a single link to anything listing any kind of legal allowance to restrict physical media sales based on region).

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 05:38:10 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 31, 2023, 01:53:10 pmThe buyer will not have legal problems, but will probably not get any warranty from Siglent. The seller is probably violating their contract with Siglent which allows them to only sell domestically.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 07:02:32 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on December 31, 2023, 12:14:53 pmIt's been shown that the KS's 8 bit ADS, with the hi-res mode has about the same ENOB than these 12 bit scopes.And maybe what you are writing is true, but at least that scope will be able to draw an eye diagram for a SPI bus, something that is on every 1 USD microcontroller. Or debug a mixed signal system.Quote from: 2N3055 on December 31, 2023, 02:00:40 pmOh this again. I think we explained it already. Nobody cares, because we don't use the scopes that way, because we don't see the point.Also, having 50 Ohm input on a 100MHz scope is really useful, you can like divide your almost DC signal in two.Anyway, Happy new year everyone, and just accept that some people will have different opinions.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2023, 07:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 31, 2023, 07:02:32 pmShown where? KS with Hi-res will have that ENOB until what frequency? Please show data and references.What do you mean it can draw and Eye diagram on SPI bus ?? how ?I know my 3000T can do mask testing of an eye on FlexRay and CAN by using special scripts. And those are basically using mask test with a trick. Useful though, better than nothing.But first Infiniivision scope that has Eye diagrams is 6000 series..As I also explained before, and again you. You not caring is not same as nobody cares.Anyway, Happy new year everyone, and just accept that some people will have different opinions.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2024, 09:11:42 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on December 31, 2023, 12:40:41 pmMany professionals stick to version 6 just because they don’t have time to adapt their workflow and be beta testers for a completely new software, where up to recently there have not always been positive comments from the early adopters out there. Even the most recent datasheet for the Pico 5000D series refers to PicoScope 6 (only) whenever a specification depends on the software.And in PicoScope 6, the max segments are limited to 10k, which isn’t a real problem most of the time, but still some order of magnitude less than even an SDS1000X-E and the measurement statistics is limited to 1000 and cannot be set to “Unlimited”.Quote from: voltsandjolts on December 31, 2023, 12:40:41 pmYes, this statement was a bit harsh and reflected mostly the frustration about a “16 bit” mode that, despite its limitations with regard to sample rate, doesn’t even come near the 4262, which in turn actually reaches the theoretical maximum that can be expected from 16 bits.In 12 bit mode we have to live with the fact that the already low sample rate of only 125 MSa/s (4 analog plus digital channels) is further cut in half in 12 bit mode. As a comparison, the 12 bit SDS2000X HD has 1 GSa/s in the very same situation. As a consequence, the Pico 5444D cannot be called a 200 MHz Realtime scope, it is rather <60 MHz in 8 bit mode and <30 MHz in 12 bit mode. Hardly comparable with something like the SDS2000X HD.Noise is the ultimately limiting factor for the dynamic range. It is specified as 110 µV RMS for the “200 MHz” 5000D and 45 µV RMS for the 20 MHz 4000A. You see the difference?Noise (with 10 Mpts record length, lower bandwidth limit = 100 Hz) is just 55 µV RMS for the 200 MHz Siglent SDS2204X HD. The latter would have only 28 µV RMS in a comparable situation to the Pico 4000A (2 mV/div and 20 MHz bandwidth limit).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2024, 01:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 31, 2023, 07:23:53 pmI'm not going to spend hours googling around for you, so you can pick some irrelevant characteristics like "this scope has 4 math channel therefore it's better". Even though the only reason to have 4 math channels is to post pictures online to brag about 4 math channels.BTW you do eye diagrams by turning on persistence. Since we have been doing it since the 90s, but I guess if it's not in the scope it's impossible to do a measurement.I'm not interested in continuing this conversation with you. As I said, my opinion is that the scope is too expensive for what it is, and I don't need to justify it to you or anyone else. And actually siglent has the means to fix that, since it is 50% more expensive than in other markets, but they are happy with the pricing.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2024, 01:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on January 01, 2024, 09:11:42 amExactly why we have the 4262!Not a fan of scopes (or any instrument) that require a laptop, so 4262 sees little use, altho when needed it performs well withTruecore 16 bit ADC.Happy New Year!!Best,

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2024, 02:16:27 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 01, 2024, 01:23:17 pmI genuinely don't want to argue with you. You are very knowledgeable and intelligent person. Many things you post are very smart and useful.But sometimes you just post a blurb of some unconnected data without explanation and declare how that is all the truth for everybody in universe and then double down anybody that contradicts you is idiot. I presume that you have quite some experience, thought process and time in those statements and you probably simply did not want to write whole thing, just results....Example of confusing parts:"And maybe what you are writing is true, but at least that scope will be able to draw an eye diagram for a SPI bus" stated for old Keysight scope..Reading that it seems that scope has some built in capability to do eye diagrams and the other ones mentioned cannot.Then you say (in patronizing tone) that I'm clueless how it is been done for years and that all you need is persistence mode..First, even old DS1000Z has persistence mode. So literally any scope can do that including Siglent you are throwing mud at.And, no, that is not "proper" eye diagram. Because you don't have clock recovery and no measurements for it.You need 2x clock and alternating trigger to get proper eye diagram.If you use SPI clock you will get something that looks alike but left edge will be aligned to trigger point.Oh actually, on Siglent mentioned you can enable histograms and extract some usable data from that "makeshift eye".And yes I certainly used this technique occasionally to get idea what is going on.But "eye diagram" it is not.Also, your ego is enormous. If you don't use math channels, or don't know what are they used for, because in your line of work you don't need them, that rule applies only to you. Not the rest of the universe.I use math channels all the time. From FFT, to multiplying 2 channels to get power, to scaling sensor data etc etc.On Picoscope I wrote math channel that was decoding decoder position, stepping of stepper etc..... One stuff I still miss on Siglent is digital channels as math source...So yes, if you make outlandish statements it is your burden to prove them. Or we call bullshit and ignore it..That is just the way it is. I have data to prove my point, where is your data?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2024, 02:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on January 01, 2024, 02:16:27 pmNo my mistake was to try to justify it with data, and match the price, when it is not about that.A Dacia at 20K might be to expensive, and a Mercedes at 50K might be cheap. It might be that they even have matching list of extras. Or the same amount of horsepower.Someone driving a Dacia will ridicule everyone else, because they spend all that money on those expensive cars. And when they both go on a long trip, turns out one car is more comfortable than the other. And the resale value is better. And it's not as noisy. And it delivers those horsepower in a more refined way. Same way I wouldn't spend 3K on a Siglent, while I really regret not buying a refurbished MSOX3104 for about 5-6K a few years ago. They are a lot more expensive today.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2024, 03:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 01, 2024, 02:35:18 pmFair enough. You would not.My opinion?I also have MSOX3104T. Good scope. Many good sides, many things severely limiting. But summa summarum , good scope.MSOX2024A = horribile scope.If you don't like Siglent get a Rigol MSO5000 instead for the fraction of money.Or get SDS2104X+, for a just a bit more than Rigol for superior analog performance. Or stick with Rigol if you need 2 ch AWG.Comparisons with cars are hugely wrong. Cars are consumer items where 80% of price is luxury and prestige.Anyways, I wish you good health and good fortunes in a New Year. Long may we disagree in peace...

author: Dull Mill
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 02:15:00 am
content: I have a SDS2204X Plus now, how do I downgrade him to make him a SDS2104X Plus with bandwidth down from 200M to 100M?

author: PELL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 04:13:57 am
content: Quote from: Dull Mill on January 09, 2024, 02:15:00 amIs there any reason to limit the bandwidth to 100M instead of using built-in 20M limit option?

author: Dull Mill
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 09:28:58 am
content: Sorry, maybe there is something wrong with my expression, I need like an option bandwidth upgrade, I want to know if there is a way to reduce the bandwidth, such as 200M down to 100M, SDS2204XPlus down to SDS2104X Plus.

author: Dull Mill
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 09:33:26 am
content: Because I upgraded the company's machine, but I didn't want them to find out, to avoid trouble.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 09:35:07 am
content: Quote from: Dull Mill on January 09, 2024, 09:28:58 amFirst of all this is a topic about completely unrelated scope.Second, in a SDS2000X+ hack topic it is all explained several times how you apply BW license, even going down in BW.

author: Dull Mill
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 09:59:57 am
content: I read in the posting how to upgrade BW, not how to lower it.

author: wysp2023
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 02, 2024, 02:57:00 am
content: How to delete all options? Thank you.

author: wysp2023
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 02, 2024, 02:59:56 am
content: How to delete all options? Thank you.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2024, 04:33:38 am
content: Quote from: wysp2023 on February 02, 2024, 02:59:56 amWhy ?If you have an 800X HD it will have pre-western release firmware and a new version is to follow soon.BTW, you should remove your double post.Use the Remove icon top right.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2024, 01:51:36 pm
content: Will they have matte screen coatings too ? So far I've avoided non-matte monitors, I forgot about that whole problem of reflections.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2024, 02:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on February 02, 2024, 01:51:36 pmScreen is not shiny..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2024, 04:22:25 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on February 02, 2024, 01:51:36 pmAn easy solution is to put on a matte screen protector in those cases. I usually do that anyway. 🤷

author: worldburger
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 08:09:22 pm
content: How does the 4 ch SDS814X-HD compare to the SDS2104X Plus?It seems like a great scope or am I missing something...

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 08:21:44 pm
content: SDS2104X-PLUS:8 bits, 10 bit ERES up to 100MHz500MHz frontend2*2GS/s200 Mpts (per ADC?)10.1" screen50 Ohm terminationAuto 1X 10X probe detection.AWG and LA hardware integrated.Single Math channel.No digital filters.Different architecture (older) and memory management (a bit less responsive on large captures)SDS800X-HD12 bit200MHz frontend.1*2GS/s100MPts (824 only)4 math channels with digital filters.7" screen (same resolution)AWG and LA available as external hardware, less integrated amd more expensive.No 50 Ohm nor probe attenuation factor detection.No EXT trigger input.Third of the price.I think that's mostly it. The Siglent experts will probably correct any mistakes and add relevant info.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2024, 08:32:08 pm
content: Close, quite close but:2kX+: 2 Math channels with current FW, 4 is coming in the next FW.200 Mpts mem depth for each ADC < gets halved with 3 or 4 channels active.Uses SPL2016 LA fitting, all active LA circuitry is in the scope.800X HDSampling rate and mem depth gets divided down by channels in use.Uses SLA1016 external LA module.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2024, 06:05:48 am
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on March 05, 2024, 08:21:44 pmPer ADC!Quote from: Antonio90 on March 05, 2024, 08:21:44 pmTwo math channels. And as I’ve stated multiple times already, there are just not enough resources (FPGA, memory) to support more. Therefore, we’ll never see 4.Digital filters on the other hand might come with one of the next updates. In fact I’ve already seen them working, yet there is also manual memory management (for providing constant sample rate mode) belonging to that package, and this is a major task with low priority.The architecture is not different. The SDS2000X Plus was the first instrument with 16-bit internal data processing, which it needed for its 10 bit mode. As one could imagine, this also was the test run for the future (back then) 12-bit scopes in the pipeline.