New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: purfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 03:41:46 pm
content: Just got an email from DigiKey advertising their new PCB service called DKRed. Looks pretty similar to OSHPark.https://www.digikey.com/en/resources/dkred?utm_medium=email&utm_source=adh&utm_campaign=87682_ADH2103A&utm_content=learnmore_US&utm_cid=12745578&mkt_tok=MTQ0LU5DQi0wMzAAAAF8Ir_xLEHFteBfl9FynQybkN_UzUeGpAA5gGV_cP2nQ_m_fsaxL9dQYZw53ZmzJtR9CGAwZiy8FhLYd6ESCn08wZwQl2s8OMbroWigKpJMz12LBI8edit: after looking a bit closer, the $6 per square inch price is per piece with a minimum order of 4 pieces, so it's actually quite a bit more expensive than OSHPark...

author: jrs45
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 03:49:33 pm
content: Yes, it doesn't seem to offer any advantages over the low-cost China manufacturers (they probably send it over there anyway). 10 day turn is pretty slow, easily comparable to JLC, etc.It might be more interesting if DK did full assembly + PCB making, maybe they will in the future. Certainly a good way to piss off a lot of their assembly customers though.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 04:44:24 pm
content: My last JLCPCB turn was 5 days to boards in hand - about $20 for about 12 sq inches. Though 7 days is more typical.And, at $6/sq in, DKRed is wildly overpriced compared to OSHPark.DKRed doesn't pass the sniff test.

author: dkonigs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 05:08:51 pm
content: And OSH Park isn't known for being cheap (or fast) either.I used to use them for everything, but now that I want to do things like 4-layer boards (do avoid a power routing mess) I can't justify them anymore. JLCPCB is so much cheaper, even if I check all their "fancy" options to mostly match the results. And I don't have to file mousebites off the edges of all the boards either.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 05:11:02 pm
content: Soldermask and edge cuts (mousebites) are shitty on OSHpark as well. Only decent thing is ENIG plating.DKRed is a nope on top of that.JLC hands down wins still. They cornered the market by actually doing a decent job for a decent price.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 08:20:22 pm
content: Its $1.50 / sq inch * 4pc = $6 minimum order (1"x1").10cm x 10cm board 4pc is $93.OSHPark is $5 per square inch, per set of 3.10cm x 10cm 3pc = $77.5I'm not sure how its "wildly overpriced" compared to oshpark.. price is basically the same once you factor in its 4pcs vs 3pc.Would be nice if you could combine the shipping with your regular Digikey order but didnt look like that was an option (USA only?).

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:07:09 pm
content: I agree, after reading more closely, wildly is not correct. However, I rarely need 4 boards. Frankly, at least half the time, 2 OSHPark boards go unused.They don't support 4L boards and minimum size in H or W is 1" (even 25mm gets rejected) I often have boards that are <1" on one edge. I will stick with OSHPark for the small stuff.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:17:51 pm
content: Got the email, saw the price, deleted it.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 09:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on March 30, 2021, 08:20:22 pmFunny, thepricing pagesays $1.50 per square inch (for two layers) but the press release/email blurb said $6, so who knows. No DKRed "instant quote" prices show up for 4 and 6 layers.So you get four 2" x 2" boards for $24.Oshpark charges $5 per sq inch and you get three boards so three 4 sq in boards is $20.(You gotta bend your brain to figure out which is actually cheaper!)

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2021, 10:06:06 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on March 30, 2021, 09:36:24 pmTry uploading a set of gerbers. $6/sqin, 4 boards (thus the $1.50 quote). A bit more expensive than OSHPark though cheaper per board. No 4L or 6L boards, no Eagle or Kicad uploads, nothing smaller than 1" on edge. A bit too many restrictions for me. Maybe when they fix those.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 04:23:35 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on March 30, 2021, 10:06:06 pmI don't care about Eagle or Kicad (or any other PCB CAD program) uploads, Gerbers only, please!

author: Dave8266
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 07:19:49 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on March 30, 2021, 09:07:09 pmSame here. I'm not sure it would help support the panel throughput they need, but I'd happily pay more per square inch for 1 or 2 PCBs from OSH Park instead of 3. More profit and lower labor for them, less cost and waste for me.DK Red does appear to support any single-board quantity >=4 though. So while OSH Park makes you jump from 3, to 6, to 9, etc, DK Red could produce 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc. That could be considerable savings if you were doing small quantities of larger PCBs.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 09:03:58 pm
content: Good point if you need, say 5 PCBs. Though, at that point a Chinese fab will probably be cheaper and faster.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 09:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on March 31, 2021, 04:23:35 pmI use gerbers a lot but send Kicad format off to OSHPark because it is simpler. Gerbers buy you nothing for a 1 off PCB. For someone starting out with PCB design, why make them jump through the Gerber hoop? I bet a large fraction of OSHPark's customers use Kicad or Eagle format. Since DKRed is clearly targeting OSHPark, I am surprised they only support Gerbers.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 11:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: jrs45 on March 30, 2021, 03:49:33 pmThere is "Made in USA" picture down the page the OP posted, so does it mean the boards are made in the USA? The FR4 material as per the datasheet seems Isola brand. If the quality is good and bring more options (more PCB fab options, combined component shipment price (although is probably not next to theirs components warehouse), assembly?) they may have some good business.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2021, 11:09:02 pm
content: Wait! I just went via the online quote calculator and it seems they just outsource to many local fab houses? The same board specs/quantity in PCB Way advanced fab came to USD$360 and the DKred prices from the shown fabs was b/w USD$1160 and $2140 ...

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 02:04:01 am
content: Quote from: purfield on March 30, 2021, 03:41:46 pmI don't understand. $6 for 4 boards per sq in is better than $5 for 3 boards unless you only want 1 board. I don't see how in any case it is "quite a bit" more expensive. They offer 5/5 track/trace design rules and 8 mil holes, so some BGAs are on the table.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 02:11:07 am
content: Quote from: mairo on March 31, 2021, 11:09:02 pmThey are showing comparables to highlight how much cheaper they are. You don't see an order button for any of those do you?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 02:37:19 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 01, 2021, 02:04:01 amIt seems to me that experimenters perhaps don't need multiple boards so often, so it is wasteful to have to buy 3 (and even worse to have to buy 4).

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 02:50:02 am
content: Made in 'merica. Well that's something rare to see nowadays. You wanna stop the growing Chinese influence around the globe ? Yes ? Thensupport these companies. Especially you who live in 'merica.Edit: what I wrote doesn't make sense. The FR-4 material and the soldermask are probably manufactured in China.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 06:17:17 am
content: Quote from: M4trix on April 01, 2021, 02:50:02 amI understand that's where they make air too. We export all of our CO2 and they turn it into coal and O2 and ship it back to us. But every ton of coal they ship means a unicorn died powering the process. But we keep buying that unicorn coal and O2.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 08:08:10 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 01, 2021, 02:11:07 amYes you are correct - the first board dimensions that I tried 136x216/4L did not displayed prices for the DKRed service thats why I got confused. Changing the setup to a 2L gives me a price from DKRed ( for 4 pieces) - DKred @ $275 (no international shipping) compared to $175 (including international shipping) from PCBWay Advanced service.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 08:14:17 am
content: QuotePrice similar to Eurocircuits 3 day service.moving on.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2021, 03:52:19 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 01, 2021, 02:11:07 amYes, you can order from those other vendors. Digikey's PCB Builder service is front end for all of them and the new DK Red service.Quotehttps://www.digikey.com/en/resources/design-tools/pcb-builder

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2021, 09:34:55 pm
content: A gave DK Red a try with a small BoB that I had just ordered from OSH Park.OSH Park: Ordered 3/29, Shipped 4/6, Delivered 4/10DK Red: Ordered 3/30, Shipped 4/3, Delivered 4/5The silk screen is a bit sharper on the OSH Park boards. Everything else is essentially the same.Digikey did not provide a tracking number, and the second line of my address was dropped.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2021, 10:29:36 pm
content: Thanks for doing that. I've been on the lookout for a board to use for DKR but the last two I made were <1" on one of the sides.The silkscreen does, indeed, look a bit blurry on the DKR board. The lack of panelization tabs is a plus. I always have to file them down on the OSHPark boards - not a huge deal but a bit of an annoyance. Also, a + for DKR is the 6 day turn around. Though that may be because they aren't super busy, yet. I would like OSHPark a lot more if they could keep it to 7 days or less. 10 days for the basic service seems more of the norm lately.I assume that odd color on the bottom of the OSHPark board is due to the lighting.And if it wasn't clear they are gunning for OSHPark before, it sure is now!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 12:01:01 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 10, 2021, 10:29:36 pmI wish DK offered something a little more tasty - e.g. an option to have the boards populated with DK sourced parts seems rather obvious!

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 12:08:25 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 11, 2021, 12:01:01 amThat would be the killer app, as they say. "Your boards will be manufactured with parts from Digi-Key's trusted inventory."

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 12:37:57 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 10, 2021, 10:29:36 pmIt took me a bit to figure this out too. At first I thought they didn't solder mask the bottom because of no parts. But that is just the color of the solder mask over solid ground plane. Look at the component side under the chip around the thermal pad. All the pads are gold plated, but under the solder mask it looks... copper.What are the design rules for the vias? They look like there is barely an annular ring, but that might just be in comparison to the drill size.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 12:53:05 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 11, 2021, 12:08:25 amKind of a US version of JLCPCB? I shall not be holding my breath.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 01:07:54 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 12:53:05 amWhoever is the first to do this in the US, will of course have a huge advantage - and the US needs a service like this, if it takes itself even a little bit seriously as a center for technology and science...I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen, perhaps sooner than any of us imagined.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 01:11:17 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 12:53:05 amIt sure seems an obvious next step to me. One of the big issues with using JLCPCB is the limited selection of parts available, not to mention the hugely useless access to finding a useful part. There are some folks who pull the data daily and have a way to search it, but it pales in comparison to Digikey's search capability on top of the fantastic variety.Likely Digikey would need to have limitations on the parts usable, but the only likely limitation would be having the vendors assure there were accurate schematic symbols and footprints available to work with. Once such a service got going it likely would end up being the de facto prototyping method in the western world... about the same time electric cars become the de facto personal transport I expect. So I'm thinking 2025.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 01:44:09 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 10, 2021, 10:29:36 pmThey ship directly from Royal Circuit in California. I think OSH Park has them made in the Chicago IL area and then shipped to them in Oregon for depanelization and shipping to the customer.QuoteThe After Dark service from OSH Park is a black PCB with clear solder mask. The bottom of the board has a copper pour.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 01:46:28 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 12:37:57 amMost are 1mm dia with 0.6mm drill. A few are 0.9mm dia with 0.5 mm drill.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 01:53:28 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 12:53:05 amNote my use of the word "trusted." Do youtrustthe parts supplied by JLCPCB? Are you worried about possible counterfeits and unauthorized parts substitutions? (questions are rhetorical. maybe!) This could be Digi-Key's differentiator. They have the supply part nailed down. Why do we buy from Digi-Key instead of Alibaba or eBay, even though the prices are higher? Because we know they will supply what they advertise and what we order.DK would have to partner with an assembly service, of course, and then there's the issue of exactly which parts customers could specify for this service. It's not likely that customers could choose from everything DK offers, at least for a "low-cost prototype assembly service." But buy enough boards and I'm sure they'd be happy to stuff them with whatever you want.All that said, I'm not holding my breath either.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 03:23:56 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 11, 2021, 01:53:28 amLCSC is the Disti partnered with JLCPCB (or is there an ownership element? dunno, probably doesn't matter). While I wouldn't trust them with my life, I have never had bad/fake parts from them on around 500 boards. I have asked that exact question about the STM32F104 situation (does LCSC sell fake STM32s?) and numerous people were fairly adamant that they are trustworthy. Kind of makes sense - reputation is important here.If you know of situations where they have sold fakes, please share. I think it's a bit unfair to lump them in with the Aliexpress merchants selling fakes.My general skepticism about a US assembly service as described is the pricing will be way too high. I can get 10 4"x4" (er 100x100mm) 4L boards with 101 SMD parts (28 unique) for less than $100 from JLCPCB. I submitted just such an order 3 hours ago. I priced out a 50 board run and it would cost just a bit over $5 a board. You'd probably have pay 10X that for a US based assembler. Parts alone will be 4X-5X or more and the volume price curve is much shallower than LCSC. Labor is the killer though.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 03:45:19 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 03:23:56 am99% of assembly is automated, that's why so much of manufacturing doesn't matter so much where it is done, at least not the labor costs.I get a board made with 178 parts, 35 line items at qty 100 for $70 in North Carolina. They even do the testing for me and ship tested, working boards directly to my customer. My previous CM who charged me around $100 per board said they did the testing for free because it helps them spot process problems more quickly. I don't think JLCPCB has such concerns. If your boards have any manufacturing issues, do you return them to JLCPCB for rework?

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 04:59:20 am
content: If your product price supports such costs, I say great. Mine doesn't. I have had 2 boards that failed, out of hundreds. At my prices, margin covers the loss - I toss them out.And even with fully automated assembly, there is labor - mailing, answering the phone, loading the parts, ... Your $70/board is pretty close to my expectations.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 05:36:29 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 04:59:20 amI don't understand what you mean. You said you were getting boards roughly comparable to mine at $100 from JLCPCB and I am getting mine for $70 in the US with added services. What does answering the phones have to do with anything? Oh, forgot to mention, my boards are 6 layer. Unless your parts are more expensive, it seems like everything else is pretty comparable or mine should be more expensive. My board is only 4.5 x 0.85 inches, so it might be smaller than yours, but I haven't found that to be a significant cost issue. The 0.85 inch width excludes me from DK Red. I keep wanting to call it DarK Red.

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 05:59:18 am
content: Yesterday, when I was surfing a Chinese photography forum, I accidentally found that electronic engineers were talking about LCSC's acrylic panel printing service. The price is very cheap, just like other JLC services. I immediately checked their English version website, unfortunately I didn't find any clues.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 06:28:00 am
content: JLCPCB boards are of mediocre quality. Poor mask alignment, weak mask adhesion, blurry silk print, inconsistent silk print quality batch to batch, some boards come with manual fixes ( cuts where apparently they found shorts during testing). Ok for prototyping but junior quality in general. Will see what DK is offerring...

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 06:38:34 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 05:36:29 amOK, I'll do the math for you. 10 boards for $100. Mine come out to $10/board Q10, <$6 Q50. Yours are $70/board Q100. More than 10X different.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 07:10:49 am
content: Yup. I'm all for onshoring manufacturing, but let's not kid ourselves.Quote from: gamalot on April 11, 2021, 05:59:18 amThis is relevant to my interests. I've createda separate threadwith more information.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 11:07:46 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 03:23:56 amThis is all about the level of automation, I guess? - after all, an American or European robot doesn't use more resources than a Chinese robot...

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 01:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 06:38:34 amI want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You are getting 4x4 inch boards with 100 components fabricated andassembledfor $10 each at quantity 10 including the cost of the parts? I take it these are very inexpensive parts?I can't use their service because they only mount parts from their store. I can't design my board with JLCPCB components. But that is an amazing price. You might say unbelievable.Are these boards fully routed, tab routed or V-scored?

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 01:28:41 pm
content: Why don't you go read the 10 page thread about JLC's assembly service? The prices are real, they essentially do assembly for free.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 01:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on April 11, 2021, 06:28:00 amMaybe the boards are "good enough for Australia" in many situations?

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 02:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 01:10:09 pmFully routed. Though they have a number of panelization options.Relatively cheap parts? sure. But my board uses FRAM, high speed opto, lots of lower speed optos, 74 series logic (7, mostly NXP and TI), relay driver. The parts are much cheaper than from US/EU distis. By the way, that per board price includes DHL shipping to the US.Are the PCBs cheap crap? Well, the first test is that >400 customers seem to be pretty much satisfied. Some wildly so. I have had 1 return and 2 failures that I replaced for free. One of the failures was a classic tombstone issue. No others from that batch had the problem.Being critical, yes, solder mask alignment isn't perfect. But, it was good enough so the reflow worked correctly in the vast majority of cases. Also, they often use a solder mask that doesn't stand up well to reworking. Not the end of the world, especially if you don't actually rework the boards.The parts library is, indeed, limited. In 2 ways: not every part in the world is listed and a lot that are listed seem to never be in stock. The current chip shortage has had some impact - STM8 chips for example. And they list hundreds of Atmel chips but only a handful are actually stocked. But just looking at what they actually have, it is still pretty big. If you target your design for chips they seem to stock, you should have few problems. In my design, I use a couple of 74LVC2G17 Schmidt triggers. JLCPCB lists 4 (iirc) different ones including NXP, Diodes Inc and TI. One is often out of stock but not all. So, when I make a production run I often have to switch. I have never had to postpone a batch due to chip shortages.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 04:43:08 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on April 11, 2021, 02:56:04 pmThis board is not just a generic sort of design. It was very hard to get onto the tiny board in the first place. Two of the ICs on my board are not listed at JLCPCB at all and others are more expensive than the open market. One of those has no reasonable replacement. It's an analog switch with ~1 ohm resistance and ±12V supplies. Not many sources at all. If you know another chip I'm all ears. Maxim makes one that is more expensive in a slightly different package. I compromised the footprint to accept either, but so far have not needed to use the Maxim part.The ADI chip is also a problem with availability at the moment. ADI is quoting 36 week lead time. Doesn't matter currently. The board has a CODEC from AKM which is not available due to a factory fire. My customer doesn't want to spin the board because of having to do all the cert testing again. The AKM chip is up to $60 each if they are even real. I think I'm going to get my customer to buy those parts and we will spot test them. But they are a major networking company and the wheels grind slowly. I'm not spending any more on it until I get the PO.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2021, 07:25:13 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on April 11, 2021, 04:43:08 pmHope you didn't think I was saying you could/should use them. I often use "you" when "one" would be more precise to my meaning. My point was just that even with their limitations and "crappy" PCBs, they are useful for a wide range of applications. One does have to design within their limitations.QuoteAnd this is a most wise decision! I bet this chip shortage era we are living in has a lot of people chasing their tails.