Employees at RFID chip company going cashless with implants in hand - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 01:17:52 am
content: Microchip Implants for Employees? One Company Says Yeshttps://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/technology/microchips-wisconsin-company-employees.htmlWhat will the implications of the elimination of cash be in an era where millions are losing jobs to automation?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 02:34:07 am
content: I have not used cash for anything for many years (except for parking meters and small stuff like that). Credit cards are a beautiful invention. I don't see how this is related to jobs though.You seriously need to chill, it will improve quality of your life.PS: I would absolutely implant a chip if it was something universally accepted. This way I won't have to carry credit cards, badges for work, possibly even car keys. But it is not likely to happen, unfortunately.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:02:54 am
content: Well, we could be in a much better world....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_TheobaldBut we won't, because our brains are still basically wired like animals.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:06:11 am
content: wait till the tumors start showing up.there is no bio-compatable material that does not block RF,the chips they stick in cats & dogs end up embeded in tumors as the body tries to shield itself from them.p.s. - cash is king, if you dont hold it in your posession - you dont have it.when the banks start robbing customers to pay the shareholders because they are insolvent, or government decides they dont like you or your political views(this has happened), your money will be just mist in the cloud!

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:10:25 am
content: Quote from: stj on July 26, 2017, 03:06:11 amThere are plenty of materials (all sorts of polymers used for prosthesis) that are already safely embedded into a human body without any problems. I don't see why there would be tumors.But the first step would be to have this RFID universally accepted outside of the body. I'd like to carry one card for everything. Figuring out how to embed it into the body is something we'll figure out later.Quote from: stj on July 26, 2017, 03:06:11 amWell, I am a shareholder. You just got to to be a part of the systemBut seriously, I don't get where this paranoia comes from. There is no point in sitting on piles of cash. It will lose its value with the rest of the system.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:23:20 am
content: This has been going on a long time:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchip_implant_(human)Almost 2 decades of predicting its the near future.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:26:37 am
content: A bloke in Sydney, Australia implanted the NFC chip from his Opal Card (a card used on public transport in this state) into his hand.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-28/opal-card-meow-meow-implant-could-be-deactivated-by-authorities/8658986(And yes, he legally changed his name toMeow-Ludo Disco Gamma Meow-Meow.)

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:45:27 am
content: GREAT NEWS !! So now, the criminal elements will go around cutting off hands. Admittedly, a little harder to hide a dozen or so hands than cards,but someone will come up with a work around :-)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:47:55 am
content: It seems to me that they had these chips at least twenty years ago when I was a pet owner. Also, they are not positive proof of ID because a chip could be stolen and re-implanted in somebody else.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:48:13 am
content: Quote from: digsys on July 26, 2017, 03:45:27 amIf the system is implemented correctly, then it would be pointless. Like stealing iPhones right now.This will not happen for a lot of reasons, and this is not one of them.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:50:52 am
content: Quote from: cdev on July 26, 2017, 03:47:55 amNobody proposes them as an ID here. But they can carry a link to the picture and other ID attributes.The whole thing can be made much more secure than the stuff we have right now, but that requires effort. And right now we are repealing and replacing, no time to do stuff.I want to reiterate one more time - embedding into the body is not a problem at all. If we can make it work with a single standalone device, we can figure out where to go from there.

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:45:42 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 03:10:25 amI don't want to derail the thread, just provide a little insight because I find myself agreeing with cdev more often than I'd like to admit. I don't consider myself paranoid but it is undeniable that here in Europe, there are people who want all money to be 100% traceable and 100% virtual so it can not be hidden and be adjusted at will. Examples? In Sweden, you can no longer pay with cash virtually anywhere. In most western European countries, you can only pay in cash up to a certain amount (e.g. € 2,999.99 in Italy). In Cyprus, 48% of any deposit exceeding € 100,000 was levied with no way to prevent this. Here in Germany, we have a saving culture, not a loan/mortgage culture. Add this to the fact that Europe will face another 2009 crisis eventually and that several public figures have already expressed sadness over not being able to impose a negative interest on everyone's saving accounts, it's easy to see where this is all headed.I'm not against the comfort of using electronic cash or RFID. I am however against making it a requirement and removing the alternatives because then it would take away my freedom of choice. This very freedom of choice is a problem for some people, so they try to reduce it, one step at a time.The issue I'm having with such experiments with RFID is that it sets a certain expectation: they did it, so why can't you? I don't want to have to justify myself for *not* wanting it.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 06:24:30 am
content: This is the government/bankers wet dream. It's not paranoia. Complete control over money is the goal. Central bankers have been pinned by the zero bound and cash impedes their ability to put negative interest rates in place (a few countries have tried). Perpetual inflation is the only way to keep the debt basedponzi schemeeconomy going. Elimination of cash is already being attempted (see India) - often the first step in the effort is the elimination of large denomination bills (e.g. 500 Euro) under the guise of preventing criminal activity.Control of money = Control of people

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 06:27:17 am
content: Can you actually tell what will happen if all money are digital and traceable? What control are you talking about? Control over what?Governments have many ways to "control" people. Not all of them are bad.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 06:33:26 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 03:10:25 amwell... bothQuote from: stj on July 26, 2017, 03:06:11 amand the government taking money from your bank accounts in crisis times already happened here..the bank thing, the national post service did that with all their emplyees accounts not many years ago,the government thing happened 9th july 1992. it can be done per our laws. and they are discussing if it should be done regularly to pay taxesQuotei agree, until someone else decides that your cash is worth nothing, so it's better to be a part of the system and have a way out too.I am generally in favour of going cashless, but implants and that short of stuff makes me very uncomfortable, also just wait for when a stranger shaking your hand will steal your implant's data

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 06:36:21 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 06:27:17 amControl over the money supply. By being able to revalue money at will - you discourage saving and encourage borrowing and spending. The only way new money is created is through issuance of debt.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 06:37:35 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 26, 2017, 06:33:26 amThey can do the same to your paper cash. All they need to do is print a bit more of it, and your part is worth less all of a sudden.With digital currency and no way to make more, you have an absolute traceability of distribution. Obviously there are ways to screw it up, it does not mean we should not try.Quote from: JPortici on July 26, 2017, 06:33:26 amThis is a technologically solvable problem.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 06:48:05 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 06:37:35 amYes, but it's not quite so simple. For example, in the U.S., the only way new money can legally be created by the government is through the issuance of new government debt in the form of goverment bonds.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 06:52:48 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 26, 2017, 06:48:05 amIf we are thinking about doom and gloom scenarios, then current system can be changed for the worse.You would need new legislation to fully switch to digital currency anyway. If you don't have enough votes or enthusiasm to do that, you can try to amend current paper money laws.There is no reason to think that laws regarding paper money will be somehow better than laws about digital money. Both can be drafted in a good and in a bad way.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 07:00:17 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 06:52:48 amBut as long as people have the option of holding paper currency, then negative interest rates cannot effectively be put in place. Holding cash is equivalent to holding T-bills at zero percent interest.With interest rates stuck at the zero bound, the central banks become impotent to stimulate inflation.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 07:04:33 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 26, 2017, 07:00:17 amYou can force people to spend more by artificially inflating prices on everyday things. Start collecting new road use fee for trucks, and your groceries just went up in price.It is obviously not as predictable as straight up chaining interest rates, but can be workable. And this happens already with the price of gas anyway.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 07:15:12 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 07:04:33 amSorry, but economics doesn't work that way. No one can just wish inflation into place artificially. The current fiat monetary system relies on central banks ability to stimulate inflation by control of interest rates.This is not a controversial statement and the desire of central bankers to be able to institute negative interest rates is no secret. It's been openly proposed and trialed. But as long as people have the option of holding cash it will be ineffective.The fact that an entirely digital currency system would also give those in power the ability to monitor and control individuals is just another benefit for those so inclined.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 08:17:27 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 26, 2017, 06:24:30 amwhere millions maybe losing souls too.in the Christian book of Revelation 13It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave,to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark,an ID chip buy or sell thingssouls of the dead that have themark of the beastwill go to hell in the next life.I an not against technology, just against ID chips embedded into the human body as a way of id or as a type of money.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 12:15:48 pm
content: I was wonder what reader / antenna they were using. Getting a decent read range on an implanted tag isn't easy.I've got an xNT NFC implant by the way. Just for fun stuff like unlocking my garage door or PC. No tumours, no (additional) Satanism and nobody has cloned it or cut my hand off yet.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 02:49:29 pm
content: i will probably get this thread locked now, by just saying this:when any corporation or government directly steals from peoples accounts or invalidates cash(like in india) they should be killed.not metaphoricly, litterally cut their throats or throw them off the roof - it's been done many times before and the country's have generally been much better afterwards.they are supposed to serve us, when it blatantly becomes us serving them, it's time for a swift and severe change.unless you want to be a slave working 16-18 hours a day with nothing to show for it - or just sleeping in the street.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 02:58:42 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 02:34:07 amEspecially in the regard that people loose the grasp of how much money they spend and have left. Therefore people spend more than would do otherwise.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 03:10:25 amFor some people it is a way of life, state of mind.I have one friend who every month withdraws the whole month salary from bank into cash and he stockpiles it in his safe at home. He doesnt have any credit card.I am saying something similar - if government is going to cancel cash, I will switch to some more valuable currency, like toilet paper, tins of food, bottled water or ammunition.Survivalist way of life.Anyway, isnt marking a human with a number agaist human rights ? In first, implanting chips would be voluntary, then it would be recommended and finally - mandatory.Not the world I would like to live in.

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2017, 06:27:17 amYes, you can tell because of the same way people censor themselves on Facebook because they know that third parties are reading it with great attention. If banks (and in extension, governments) know exactly where, when and what you purchased, you become not only predictable but also easy to blackmail. You will have to agree with everything the governments want or else they'll use that knowledge against you. You may think this is trivial now or that you have nothing to hide. But just like on Facebook, nothing is ever forgotten this way. Something you did as a teen or young adult could come haunting you decades later when you least expect it - e.g. when trying to get a new job ("it says here you went to festival XYZ. I'm afraid we don't want people in this company who associate with hippies"), apply for health insurance ("it says here you bought a glider. We're unable to accept you because you're at a high risk to be injured") or even when dealing with the government itself ("it says here you bought certain chemicals. You're flagged as a potential terrorist, so I'm afraid I can't grant you XYZ." ).What I'd like to ask you to consider is also the fact that the financial sector is heavily intertwined with governments these days. If money becomes completely traceable, you can no longer hide your assets from anyone. Without this option, your assets can be seized at any point in time for any reason, leaving you with nothing. Digital assets make it easy to change your wealth - it's just a number in the system anyway. Once there is no alternative, banks and governments will shamelessly dive into the pockets of the citizens. Hence, this isn't so much about control per se but about abuse of power.To me, comfort is the enemy of freedom. Not because comfort is bad (it's not) but because it makes people complacent and lazy, making it easy for opposing interests to chip away at the freedoms others fought to obtain. For this reason, using anything to allow humans to be uniquely identified (be it RFID or whatever else) is another step towards losing those freedoms. Sure, comfort is won, but at what price?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retr0brightneeds hydrogen peroxide. Purchases of it already led to arrests in Germany as it was wrongfully assumed to be used in terror attacks, so this is already happening. I think purchasing it to bleach front panels is a perfectly legitimate reason to purchase it, but in such a future, this could end up on your track record and be used against you.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:53:34 pm
content: I am willing to sacrifice quite a lot in exchange for convenience, given I can trust the government and judiciary. Digital currency and cash both have drawbacks and benefits, one major problem with digital currency is cyberattacks, cyber warfare, electrical and/or internet infrastructure blackouts; they could paralyze society entirely.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:02:02 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 26, 2017, 03:53:34 pmwhy do you think that?Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 26, 2017, 03:53:34 pmthat or government "locking" your accounts because you protested in public against israel.i know of someone they did that to in london, the excuse was to investigate if he was donating money to proscribed groups.the reality is it was just a punishment.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: stj on July 26, 2017, 05:02:02 pmYes, it's a bigif. The UK is - unfortunately - becoming increasingly authoritarian, and puritan.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:21:12 pm
content: You guys have gone way off topic. The company in question is only identifying you for a vending machine, much like many companies do now with your pass.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:21:33 pm
content: Quote from: abraxa on July 26, 2017, 05:45:42 amMy sentiments exactly;Do you remember many, many years ago when at your place of work, one was given the option of having the salary "directly deposited" to your bank account? Otherwise it was a check or cash.Nowadays, it is only direct deposit. No alternative.Before people start ranting, I both know and agree that a direct deposit is safer, faster and more convenient.But as Abraxa mentions, it is limiting my choices.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: stj on July 26, 2017, 02:49:29 pmSo why say it, especially when it's got nothing to do with the topic?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:23:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fred27 on July 26, 2017, 05:21:12 pmYeah, but there is nothing to talk about in the original news. They are not even the first ones to do this. It is just a cheap publicity stunt.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:30:15 pm
content: QuoteMm, masochist. The goverment always go by money, your wellness care them nothing.Why do you believe that the normal people always put them fines but the marginal don't put them? By money.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fred27 on July 26, 2017, 05:21:12 pmOh god, how will they stay us the hands?, if for each corporation have a diferent chip , finally we shall terminate with 40 chips insides of the hands, Are we able to move the fingers?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:50:49 pm
content: Face recognition works fine for that. No implants required. In a small company there are rarely two people who look that much alike.Quote from: Fred27 onTodayat 11:21:12

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 06:18:20 pm
content: The OP is about a company trialing implantable chips. This is a step towards a potentail future where implantable chips are available as an option for anyone who wants one. Once that sort of system is in place, then we are only one step away from the nightmare scenario of a government requiring all their citizens to have an implantable chip. Hopefully that will never happen but it could.History has shown that leaders will use whatever tools possible to control their citizenry and it has shown that bankers along with governments will employ whatever means necessary to stimulate inflation (which enriches elites at the expense of the masses and allows governments to run large deficits). This is not paranoia, it is historical fact.Personally, I use credit cards, direct deposit, paypal, electronic bill pay, etc. I enjoy the convenience and am willing to pay the price of some loss of privacy. But elimination of cash and/or implantable chips would be a quantum leap towards a dark future. As long as holding physical cash is an option, negative interest rates cannot take hold and government confiscation of wealth has limits. And while i can accept some limited tracking of my movement and personal information in the name of security and convenience, a required implantable chip would open a degree of control and loss of privacy that I find repugnant.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 07:15:02 pm
content: No conspiracies, just changes - advances in labor saving technologies causing disruption. Also a need for a means of keeping patients in hospitals in the right areas, with others of approximately the same economic class. (Preventing "class mixing" which could cause liabilities. Because rich people get much better healthcare than poor people.) They even have separate waiting rooms, just like in the old South (US history, similar issues existed in other countries with similar lack of justification. Their legacy of poverty survive and colonialism survives)So now MONEY is the justification, even as the business case for money as it relates to work is diminishing. (Shhhh!) As the need for worker bees vanishes, that will be money which millions or even billions of people will suddenly have no way of earning. And not so gradually, few or no prospects if the current system continues. While large segments of society still have never contemplated any of this, the rich have been for decades, one could even say they have been obssessed by it. And they have come up with a plan to steal the world, as it were. But like all of the best laid plans, its guaranteed to fail. .The rich may be many things but one of the things they arent always so good at is awareness of whats right and whats wrong.. Wealthy people are markedly less honest and less socially aware of their society's needs, than others. Study after study shows that. But, soon, if current trends continue, the very rich will literally "own" everything.This is whats driving the obsession with surveillance. Projection.I wrote a VERY long rant here, but I am going to delete most of it. All sorts of things are going on, and most of them involve that horrible thing, class. During the labor scarcity era, a anomalous situation developed around the world, briefly a middle class was created in many countries. Now the era of labor scarcity is ending.Narcissists are well known for their habit of abandoning their old friends for new ones in order to gain a new source of narcissistic supply.Narcissists always resent those they "need" with a special fervour. They resent society and working people all through the 20th century and a bitter battle developed between them.Taylorism developed out of that push to turn all highly skilled workers into interchangeable parts, cogs in a big machine.Out of that came a good thing, mass production.And now we have "new friends", tiny machines who can do all the work, for electrons. Thats their pay.To narcissists, everything is "The market" To them the whole world revolves around this "market" and nothing else.Everything is a big trade. But humanity has outgrown that kind of thinking in many ways, but they are still obsessed by it.Its turning into a real mess.We have to understand for decades the elite in the developed countries have exploited their position of power and made promises. Some of them were in writing. Did they have the legal authority to make those promises, which decided to set aside democracy? Thats very debatable and one could say the answer is kind of obvious - its shown by their hiding it, no. But, to people in developing countries, who didnt see it as odd that they were making these promises of things forever, they didnt seem so.Did they intend to keep those promises?-???What are trade deals, they are deals to put aside democracy and give corporations and countries entitlements. I am particularly going to discusstrade in services.With most US jobs being in various trade-able categories, and US companies desperately wanting to invest their money in the developing world, where growth is seen as potentially higher, (but, IS IT? I think that is also debatable - just look at how some of them have lagged behind while others, the ones that made an effort to reduce inequality- pulled ahead.)In these negotiations typically we have a level of groupthink thats really out of control. They make assumptions which are unsupported by fact. But they get away with it because these negotiations are held behind closed doors. The things that get discussed are wishlists of bad policy ideas - With the changes that are being forced on the US for example, many or even all have already been rejected by legislatures.They are based on totally unsupportable predictions of increased profits - they routinely frame large job losses as gains if they increase profits for the owners of companies.So delusions of grandeur and greed.. are whats driving it, and the thing they are hoping to get by this trading game are profits overseas..but I think they are grossly underestimating the willingness and ability to - LIKE THEMSELVES- of the leading groups in those countries to keep all the gains for themselves.Both sides are making similar mistakes.. and similar bad estimates of the increases in wealth they plan to get.Or at least thats the cover story.(Situationists would analyze the dynamic differently)Its quite possible, even probable that the whole thing is being pursued for completely different reasons than the ones alleged. It makes much more sense to see these things as efforts to impede true progress and roll back the gains of the late 20th century for all but a very few..Its also likely, if they are trading existing jobs for alleged new markets, that they wont materialize for either side..Automation will result in far fewer successful transformations of service jobs here into offshored long term contracts in developing countries, instead automation will proceed faster, driven by panic over various issues like security. (after all, so many people will be losing so much and are unlikely to be happy about it)Having gotten where they are largely under the radar, continued growth for Indian IT outsourcing firms, in particular, may have already plateaued.. That would represent the end of a juggernaut of globalization that largely has sustained itself by a endless stream of misrepresentations and deceptions. So its putting its all into this one. For it to be exposed would likely spell the end of the entire global coup for at least a decade, well, maybe not, attention spans are getting shorter all the time.But to return to the so called "grand bargain between north and south" I think it will be a collossal fail, its hoped for jobs wont materialize for the elites in the developing countries to broker, and the hoped for markets wont appear as a result of giving away millions of jobs here.. In short its like the beans in the Jack in the Beanstalk story.. its all hype.. And in exchange for pie in the sky they screw the middle class and poor here, and create a situation that hurts legal immigrants and leaves the country unable to modify the conditions that are causing all these problems, because trade deals are forever.. so, they lie, they lie like crazy. And nowhere is this more annoying than when the supposedly progressive candidates lie too. Showing that its all a shameful sham that they all are in on, a scheme to screw all of us.The increases in markets wont materialize, also the period of growth is likely to be short or non-existing. It would be better to expose the whole thing and let people have the long sought after changes - what they obviously need.Otherwise, we can expect a total fiasco, worse than 2008 a cascade disaster which will include huge losses for Americans especially and the loss of sales to the developed world and its crash which will likely also cause major disruption in developing countries as the maintenance of their ruling groups and its social contracts depend on a ready source of patronage jobs which depend on their very wealthy's illicit gains and advantages.. Bad business models abound, both there and here. For 20 years a totally broken healthcare insurance system has been kept alive by a relentless push by the US to use its clout to force other countries to do like us and privaize.. based on an assertion that "progressive liberalisation" (irreversible privatization) was the only possible future (in a job-sparse future?!) which is a ridiculous propositin given the relative track records of public education and healthcare (successes) and private systems (much less so, even arguably failures)You cant change so many things at the same time without a potential disaster to the goose that laid their golden egg, the middle class, I think this is not at all a wise strategy.But they are just hell bent on it. Neoliberalism is very much a sort of cult. Almost a doomsday cult, because it wants to tear everything that exists now down. But he real motivator is greed. And power.They want favorable terms, and what even a few years ago would have been abnormal kinds of protection against unforeseen eventualities.They want this so badly that they are willing to give up anything for it. Therefore things look bad for American workers. The prospect is of globalization offshoringas many as 41% of all US jobsin the coming years.But, certain influential groups of people, and especially their children, some people will need secure jobs that cant be offshorable. Most skilled service jobs are targeted for globalization, even ones in services that haven't been invented yet) Two- the only two I know of large categories of jobs that can reliably qualify for exemption are either in privately held companies or national security related. A very narrow "governmental authority"exemption exists but it rarely applies in the US (because almost all services have some commercial component.) Areas like active military and other totally noncommercial "services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority" are likely exempt. Statutory systems of Social Security are only exempt under anarrow set of conditionswhich may not apply any more - or likely wont soon ..Politicians, executive and legislative and judicial branch workers, assuming nobody else sells that service.. if its sold it is likely to be privatized and globalized soon. If anyone charges money for a like service, it is likely unqualified for exemption it is likely to be privatized and globalized.They have already promised away most of the other high skill jobs in various ways, or plan to. Like IOUs. Thats one of the perks they see of being in power, steering money to your friends. In keeping wih the theme of extrinsic fraud, everything is inverted so its being done to (its claimed) eliminate corruption in procurement. Making contracts only winnable by low bids and objectve criteria like number of engineers in a company and their training and track record. This is a process which will help some kinds of firms (large ones) and hurt others - small firms will be completely excluded in many cases from tendering bids. There is also a new Government Procurement Agreement which is similar in many ways - which I am just trying to learn now. It uses an e-tendering system.Code:"For the purposes of this Agreement…(b) 'services' includes any service in any sector except services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority;(c) 'a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority' means any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers."So, we're going to need lots more surveillance technology put into everything people buy, even the most mundane devices, to justify the level of spending they will need to create a new class of surveillance infrastructure workers.Its clearly abandonment of democracy when people, especially those in government, are limited in their freedom of expression, especially when they might be trying to help.Are large surveillance infrastructures actually being created for aims which are not the stated ones? Economic reasons? Its possible. Blackmail is also a big driver for creation of surveillance infrastructure.Countries like North Korea and East Germany created a society of informants where a third of the population was being blackmailed by their secret police.to keep your security clearance workers in line by the prospect of losing their security clearances, and therefore their jobs and livelihoods. is justified by ever more draconian repression.In order to keep the secrets secret and hide fact, ever more of a web of deception, still more secrets need to be created in huge incredible waste efforts..I think the main goal of all this is social control. We already are lied to a very very great deal. (For example, the entirehealthcare "debate"going on right now in the US is a complete sham, criminally so.The real issue is what amounts to a silent takeover of the world's economic future by corporations, in preparation for huge job losses which will come from both automation and "cross border data flows" - a subset of the stated goal, irreversible one way privatization ("progressive liberalization") of services. (All justified by a purported need to end democracy to protect international investors who once they have invested in setting up in a country are, in its "US style" or "top down" or "negative list" embodiment given a permanent entitlement to the state of regulation that existed at the signing date of some agreement, the so called "standstill date".. This in the case of healthcare and banking in the US its Feb 26, 1998, the date of the second group of agreements were ratified in procedures which seem to have been kept uniquely out of the public eye, especially in the UK and the US, because of their implications.. . -Subsequent rules have to be limited at the level that existed then, unless there was an exemption, which also needed to be made then. This is a circular argument which doesnt make any sense, really.)It gets even more outrageous the more you learn, they are moving towards allowing qualified multinational corporations to have entitlements to "market access" which is a broad term that means much more than equality, as they are given additional rights domestic corporations could never be given, for example, once established (This is already there in a 1995 treaty) they will almost certainly gain irreversible rights to freely move employees across borders to take advantage of wage gradients, basically giving them permanent irreversible entitlement to temporary work permissions for their workers, under their own wages and using their own licenses. (This has frequently been compared to slavery) Basically "harmonization" of regulation to the lowest common denominator) This will be highly disruptive, and of course, domestic companies will be encouraged to sell their services abroad in countries where wages are higher, or where they provide some service which cant be obtained locally.As far as what happens during demonetization, look at India and North Korea, both among the world's most corrupt and patronage ridden nations, who used it as a way to strengthen the ruling clique by removing large quantities of cash from circulation suddenly. The Indian government was being advised by US right wing think tanks which are pushing hard for a cashless future.I think he conspiracy theoriests are all wrong, it has nothing to do with any of the below and its all about the math. Very large numbers of jobs are going away and every talented person cant have a job. They are raising the bars, requiring formal degrees and various other "objective" criteria for businesses hat engage in government procurement (procurement will become international) but increasingly, everybody will have degrees, likely advanced degrees.So governments want the safe, good, non-offshorable jobs to go to the people who they most want to have them, preferentially, their own kids, as well as the children of their allies overseas. (who can be paid less, much less) And they want to set up as many ways as they can to arbitrarily exclude people to reduce the numbers of people who hey are expected to find jobs for, because they want to delay for as long as possible the creation of a welfare state which is the only civilized thing to do.. With so many people being out of work, hey are going to have an impossible situation so they want as many out of work people as possible to move elsewhere. They intend to use the aforementioned deal on services, and particularities of the special rules on health care insurance to do that. The US has been among the most gung ho nations in making commitments on things that other countries were careful to keep off the table. That tells us what their goals must be.Recent negotiations in elitist and American-job-obsessed India which got coverage in the Indian press they never would have gotten here (coverage which mentions the negotiation of a deal where India helps provides health care for the poorest people in America, in exchange for changes which would help privatize Social Security eliminating its ability to provide a guaraneed benefit- which is a sore point for banks- ) also offers some clues.Remember they want to keep people buying for as long as possible. To do that depends on creating a climate of fear and shame when people lose their jobs. They want to prevent the emergence of any kind of realization that these change are happening. Thats also one of the main social functions of insurance of all kinds. Its very important that people always think these bad things are only going to happen to other people, the media brainwashing of Americans (a totally phony good cop bad cop narrative that bears only the most distant resemblance to the reality) depends on it. It is very very good, the best n the world, and it can be relied upon to successfully make us fall for the same tricks again and again.They need to create the impression a hideously broken system is enough of a "success" for other countries with rich elites to be able to propose it for heir own countries as a means of getting rid of their safety nets too. Because this is a fundamentally broken, extremely unhealthy system that is not able to create real wealth without making sacrifices that weaken it to the core in order to do so. Like trading away the future at the expense of their own people) For that and many other reasons it cant be a team player, it cannot exist alongside other competing systems, it has to keep expanding to control more and more or its Ponzi scheme will collapse trapping those 'investors' who remain tied to it. But that is basically impossible.The isurance industry is a good example of how unhealhy and addicted to easy money it has become.Healthcare and profit making dont mix well. Knowing this they created lock ins to force it to comply with their agenda or cause the creation of huge unpayable obligations for compensation. They created an artificial standstill - which could not be exceeded.. Now its claimed its needed to attract foreign firms, because of an artificially created phony crisis.. The real "need" is more like an addition.. the "highly mobile international capital" now is willing to cause any disaster in order to make huge returns.. To obey WTO rules, illegitimate ones, which are hidden from Americans by the media, private insurance industry gets a ability to petition WTO to tell us to return to the state of regulation in 1998.This is being used to justify the total elimination of all the gains of the last 20 years.. a way to exclude people with pre-existing conditions. Its a "matter of principle" to maintain the high returns which its claimed highly mobile capital needs now. To get these foreign firms to come in they have to give them a way to exclude the sick, easy, just eliminate the rules which required hem to cover people with illnesses.. make it clear to them that they won't be required to cover sick or"genelined"people.Those patients will become pawns in their international game. Thats what the microchips will likely be all about.Just as it was in Feb 1998. Many of those people will only be able to afford health care in the poorest nations without subsidies.That's claimed by the WTO text to be "natural", as not everybody can have everything.But, many of the worlds people disagree with that argument. So why is it being embedded into what5 amounts to an international law behind the worlds back?No countries or families are more familiar with the benefits of being rich and the curse of poverty than the richest families in the most underdeveloped nations which almost always are ruled by just a few fabulously wealthy families. Those are the governments and families that the rich ruling class in the rich countries seem to want to keep in place because they allow a level of pillage reminiscent of colonialism, without the need to invest much money in a colonial infrastructure or maintenance of an administrator class.So in the 1990s they started a gobal process of turning the selling of healthcare insurance and higher education and other things that everybody wants (unless "supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers") into corporate rights.WTO sees subsidies as representing a broken market - its solution is always more international trade.. "export patients, import doctors" as R.A., a WTO official once said.So no conspiracy theories, just profit-lust driving all this. The middle class in developed countries are framed as protectionists, and after 20 years of relentless spin, their "work life balance" are now framed in fora like the G20 as standing in the way of a long awaited and immensely profitable global race to the bottom, framed as helping the poor, when its really helping the rich, everywhere make themselves richer, and eliminating public services, such as public health care and education, (framing them as atheftfrom corporations of opportunities!)Nothing unusual about that, we're just seeing a rapid increase in the audacity of the schemes, due to lack of integrity and corruption on all levels.Also, "exclusionism" is a core aspect of these shifts. Excluding more and more people for arbitrary reasons. As the arbitrary exclusion of more and more of humanity becomes less and less justifiable, the aggressive practice of it will become more and more of a requirement for the cult's adherents. Even as they themselves are excluded they call out its praises. This is a characteristic of what is called"totalitarianism"or"totalism".Quote from: abraxa onTodayat 09:38:52>Quote from: ataradov onTodayat 00:27:17>Can you actually tell what will happen if all money are digital and traceable? What control are you talking about? Control over what?Governments have many ways to "control" people. Not all of them are bad.Yes, you can tell because of the same way people censor themselves on Facebook because they know that third parties are reading it with great attention. If banks (and in extension, governments) know exactly where, when and what you purchased, you become not only predictable but also easy to blackmail. You will have to agree with everything the governments want or else they'll use that knowledge against you. You may think this is trivial now or that you have nothing to hide. But just like on Facebook, nothing is ever forgotten this way.Something you did as a teen or young adult could come haunting you decades later when you least expect it - e.g. when trying to get a new job ("it says here you went to festival XYZ.I'm afraid we don't want people in this company who associate with hippies"), apply for health insurance ("it says here you bought a glider. We're unable to accept you because you're at a high risk to be injured")

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 09:35:41 pm
content: QuoteIt is that easy to get Ammo in CZ?Thanks to the US, UK and IL the European Society will change fast and it will get worse.We see what happed in Cyprus.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 10:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: stj on July 26, 2017, 02:49:29 pmThe problem with that approach is that corporations and/or governments usually do not resolve to individuals, so when it does happen a lot of people who were not actually responsible also get killed, on both sides.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 10:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on July 26, 2017, 09:35:41 pmYes it is. For a person who is a license holder. Licenses are issued inshall issuemanner.Quote from: stj on July 26, 2017, 02:49:29 pmI asked this my colleague who is directly from India. He told me that in some regions, bottle of milk is a recognized currency.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 10:53:40 pm
content: my bigges fear is that we got bombed back in the stone age where the radical Islamic life.The only good think is my Granny have a House near D??ín and the Hungarian People are not that Stupid like the German.