KAYO - A4 PnP machine review - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2020, 06:28:44 am
content: After a good customer service experience after buying a semi-automatic stencil printer from KAYO, I bought one of their PnP machines.The machine is a A4L. This is the same machine as their A4, except that the machine sits on a table or the floor on adjustable rotary swivel feet. The full size A4 has an inbuilt stand . This machine is not Kayo's first machine. They have been in the Chinese domestic market since 2005 or so.I chose this 'short stand' machine because I could inexpensively air freight this machine - 2 cubic meters. The full size machine with stand is about 2x that. Not much of a big deal of course for sea freight.Before I ordered , I asked Kayo 1000 questions about technical aspects of the machine, differences between their machines etc and they answered every one of them in a timely and competent fashion. They have a couple of people there with good English language skills, that seem to be able to walk onto the factory floor or R&D floor and ask questions in the native language and translate and report back. They're not afraid to push their R&D people either, for an answer if necessary. They're a little more customer focused than I'd expect from a Chinese firm.The crate and packing was excellent. The machine was fully sealed in a foil pack and would be fine at sea for months. The crate was good quality.They supplied a good quantity of spare parts, - one of each type of air switch, head rotation motors, air filters, nozzles, alignment nozzles, short and long nozzle adaptors to suit different component heights, a reasonable tool kit of hex drivers, pliers, spanners etc, and also, quite useful was a claw hammer to get the crate pulled down. I was at my new factory with few tools. Also a bubble level and tape measure. useful stuff. even GREASE and lube !Plugged it all in and everything worked. The keyboard tray mounts on the frame of the frame which is handy, monitor on top, all supplied. This is a sturdy and solid machine, all panels fit square.Hardware - this machine is , for a Chinese machine, I think excellent. They even use spring washers and washers on bolts instead of just doing them up crazy tight !They use their own head controller so only a two-wire serial bus PLUS power goes up to the moving head. The ball screws are large lead type- 25mm, not the typical 10mm lead you see on CNC machines. This is for speed and it is fast.The conveyor works well. In this small machine, the conveyor is only driven at one end, (but rails at each end) , seems to work OK. there is a slight skew on the conveyor width (<1mm) due to the drive being at one end, this presents no practical problems for this grade of machine. The conveyor load and eject is fine, has optical sensors for PCBs, and loads the PCB into the same position with good repeatibility . The minimum conveyor width is about 50mm . Max is about 300? no problem doing a 400 x 300 panel etcInternally the wiring is neat and the mains high voltage wiring has heat shrink and also there is a two pole mains input breaker / RCD and emergency button switches, so mains wise it is good. As usual do not put your head into the cage when it is running ! it does know if the doors are lifted. There is internal lighting that is sufficient. . The upper baseplate of the machine is a 20mm thick aluminium slab, and has M5 threaded holes in a repeating pattern to bolt trays down, or use as PCB mounts (if not using the conveyor) .Air usage wise, it does not leak- there are several stages of air switches, so for example, if the head vaccuum is not on, no air is sent up to the head manifold . On the head the air is switched to BLOW/VAC and also vaccuum is generated (one generator for each nozzle) . I moved the dump tray from default. it screws into the M5 thread floor.It is a heavy beast- 300kg and have a nice heavy slab of steel on the bottom. it does not move at all at full speed with sitting on my concrete floor. The large adjustable feet are good. no problem with single point jacking- it is not going to bend.The linear rails are wide - 20mm in Y (major axis) and ball screws also 20mm in Y. About 30% less in the minor axis (X) ..There are heavy slabs and chords of aluminium everywhere and this machine does not twist or bend or move. The only problem I had getting going was the the air regulator for the BLOW (to blow parts off the nozzles) was not adjusted correctly at the factory (was shut) . opened that regulator and BLOW works fine.The air distribution and routing is all on one side of the machine and easy to access / inspect. The electronics is all on the other side of the machine. The controlling computer is a rack type and external. There are no noisy fans. The camera setup is USB for the precision and analog for speed for the rest. All lights are variable intensity.The instruction manual is basic, and Kayo supply a few videos. There is an alignment procedure for the nozzles and heads which is simple and fast. Kayo supply special nozzles to push into place. The nozzle holders have three sprung balls and hold the (Juki) nozzles in place without play. CL feeders , by the way. The only thing that has failed was a Z axis nozzle rotation motor- and TWO spares were supplied with the machine. Kayo sent me a replacement by courier.SOFTWARE:Yes I know you would all be asking this. Firstly, it is not a $250,000 yamaha !The software works OK. The vision recognition is surprisingly good. There are many helper functions for tasks like feeder alignment, nozzle alignment , fiducial alignment etc. They clearly understand these things are necessary ! The software flow is a bit clunky- there are in my opinion, too many items need to be entered by hand, and there needs to be more direct import facility. The lack of importers means many items have to be re entered when it could be stored and imported/ exported, which means potential human errors. Direct import of library parts, locations etc. I have had long conversations with Kayo about this and they understand and promised to add many iimporters and exporter to the software as soon as they get the new 8 head machine out the door.The configuration files and file formats under the hood are zipped ASCII files and easy to write your own importers if you must. The vision update rate on the screen has no perceptible delay and the software has NEVER crashed. Quite an achievement ! I'd like to have a touch screen monitor- so I didn't have to use the mouse. It's Windows 7 on an Intel platform.Kayo have a Yamaha PnP machine that they use for software and R&D development- that is to say- they know how the 'real big ' ones work and behave and perform, so they understand what is expected, and what is required. But, I have never used any Chinese origin software that I have liked. For some reason, they're are poor at user interfaces. The embedded software on the STM32 processors inside the machine seems fine.The software appears to be suitable for a 4 or 6 head machine which share the common software. I am told their current 8 head machine also shares the same softwareThe vision recognition system is a semi- interactive teaching system. Works OK, light and capture area can be customized for each component.PERFORMANCE0402 - yes , and good . .But !!! You must spend time making sure the feeder alignment is right. This takes time. They have a visual based software tool so you can go through and align the pickup for each feeder pocket. I have been told they will have automatic feeder alignment in the near future. Successful pick up of 0402 is required as not to pick them up on their ends etc . Many 'cheap' machines claim 0402 but reliability is poor.The high resolution UP camera can vision up to a 40mm part on the nozzle. I have not tried anything over 10mm with the supplied software. There are four other low resolution fast UP cameras to look at each nozzle at the same time for speed.Since I only make up to 150mm wide PCBs , I have mounted some trays in the area not used, Kayo supply a few types of screw in pillars. The software knows about trays, tube feeders also.This machine has a good quality CLOSED LOOP SERVO XY drive system. The screws are accurate and the accuracy of the XY drive system is excellent .0201 ? - well yes....BUT the machine is NOT specified for it. (the 6 and 8 head is 0201 specified and uses a better fiducial camera) but what is going to kill you is nozzle runout (eccentricity) . This affects pickup. The cheap Juki copy nozzles everyone uses can be good or bad ! . I also had one nozzle HOLDER that had poor runout (eccentricity) and this was quickly replaced by Kayo. (they give you two sets - one short set and long set ) .I have suggested to Kayo that they add a nozzle eccentricity test during pickup for picking up 0402 and smaller. if you bump a nozzle, this can damage the nozzle- the 501 and 502 are quite easy to damage ) .This would improve performance . This is because the nozzle rotates after vision and placement. My Yamaha knows about the runout (eccentricity) of each nozzle and shaft in the system. and in 22 degree increments . It's clearly a problem that must be compensated for on all machines..Further development. Will I buy a second so I have keep 46 feeders into this machine all the time and run multiple machines ? Probably yes. I have spent many weeks adapting my own Python based PNP software for this machine and now I have reasonable 0201 performance. I was able to understand the control protocol between the PC and the machine in short order and Kayo helped out also which was very impressive and unexpected . Again , their service is frank and honest and this is their strength and advantage.From my point of view, the hardware platform is excellent, and the company has excellent customer service. When Kayo add the importers and exporters to the machine in order to reduce the amount of data to input, this will be very welcome.POST SCRIPT :The machine when viewed from the front is ( X max 456.0mm , Y max 560.0 mm) is bottom left (closest left). HOME is top right 0,0, - that is far right . I think it should be opposite- that is HOME 0,0 should be bottom left. It is OK, but for me I prefer from my working position to have 0,0 on my left hand.You might need to have in a translation script from PCB CAD to mirror the X and Y axis. That is to say, X max becomes X minimum (simple Xmax - X).otherwise X and Y appear backward. I guess the other way to look at it is move the keyboard and monitor to the other side of the machine- in that case, everything is 'normal'In my software I simply mirrored X and Y.-glen

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2020, 07:01:15 am
content: Fantastic review, Glen!I checked out Kayo's 6 head and 8 head machines (plus their new 6-head which is capable of simultaneous pickup) at an exhibition in November and was very impressed with the build quality. Their pre-sales support is extremely impressive and I've heard nothing but good things about their post-sales support also. I'm hoping to pickup a 6 or 8 head machine in the coming months.It's funny you mention about the weight, because that was the big thing I noticed while inspecting the various machines at the exhibition. Some manufacturers keep the weight down but you can see the machine jumping all over the place during operation. The Kayo machines were solid as a rock, as you would expect from their serious net weight specificationCan you provide some comments about the Kayo stencil printer also?

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2020, 07:41:11 am
content: Hithe Stencil printer (5088) is similar design to others in the same device- many mfr make the same '5088' printerI was very happy with the product I received. wiring and electronics was very neat and tidy- there is a PLC in the base and GUI screen, touch screen works fine.Nothing was loose. keep your hands out of it though- with no guards this sort of machine is capable of taking your fingers off- which means SLOW DOWN the vertical speed of the blades- (see below) .The adjustments on blade height (left and right) is simple, as is travel etc. all just fine and excellent for the money.The vertical speed of the stencil separation is quite slow, (good) , < 3mm second for the first 10mm or so- the need to go slow for the initial separation is OK. There is no adjustment for that. I suspect that is the valving inside the air cylinder. There is no perceptible play in the whole mechanism.I needed two extra washers on the XYR slab to get the axis moving at limits. I also needed to put some grease on the surfaces of this table AND I needed grease in the XYR bolts and pockets. easy. I also needed to adjust the airflow (speed) into the left and right blade air cylinders (adjusted the control valve) , they were way way too fast. Screw those all the way in when you start.... There are screw valve adjustments on everything, which makes setting it up a breeze.I have stencil frames 370 x 460 and that is about maximum for this printer. there is good adjustment for very narrow frames, also.glen

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2020, 04:02:42 am
content: Thanks Glen, that's great to hear!

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 07:56:46 pm
content: UPDATE - ordered another machine.Today I ordered another Kayo A4 machine.The supplier KAYO has proven to have good support and adopt some suggested improvements. So, I feel confident enough to add a 2nd machine.This now give me 92 feeder capability. Enough for most BOMs. Two machines also give me some redundancy in case of failure.I have been asked why I bought the A4 not A4L - because it is cheaper to airfreight and I can mount and move it easier. ( And it is cheaper ! ) . There is no difference between A4 and A4L except the A4L has a built in heavy stand. I have my A4 sitting on the floor- they have good adjustable feet.-glen

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 10:40:56 pm
content: Buying a second one is a pretty good indication of how pleased you are!I'm hoping to pull the trigger on one of the larger A8L machines in the coming weeks.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 09:08:43 am
content: Hiyeah they've also incorporated a few small improvements I suggested, which is good.the next issue will be finding someone to airfreight it, since freight is quite restricted right now.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 11:46:31 am
content: Yes, airfreight is getting seriously restricted. If you can wait a few weeks you can share in the container we'll get our machines sent in...

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 11:37:15 pm
content: I can answer a couple of your questions:Quote from: MR on April 04, 2020, 04:24:07 amThe fault logic is pretty simple - my understanding is that such an error will result in the machine pausing and alerting the operator to a fault.Quote from: MR on April 04, 2020, 04:24:07 amYes, z-axis positioning is able to be specified for each component.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 06:13:22 am
content: The new Kayo A4 #2 is now on my shop floor. I sea freighted it LCL.(by the way- there was discussion about a Mekatronika machine in this thread posted by "MR" - this thread is NOT for mechatronika !)The new machine incorporates some suggestions I gave them like :- flat and spring lock washers on more bolts . Often , chinese companies stop screws coming loose by tightening the bolt up super tight , so it will NEVER come out... this is a big improvement. Now, bolts are more likely to be correctly torqued (or improved anyway)to be sure-, in my FIRST machine, MOST of the important heavy duty bolts have washers. The new machine has washers almost for all bolts and nuts. improvement.- use of white LEDs compared to red UP lighting for the COLOUR precision camera. This makes a big difference on contrast for small grey objects against the green Juki nozzle bodies.- the controlling PCB which was an external rack mount chassis has been moved inside the machines lower chassis (which was mostly empty). this is a much cleaner and neater option, and there are no external cables now in the A4 version. The versions Kayo supply with a stand have the PC built in always. I buy machines without the stand- shipping is 2.5CBM / 300kgOther that that, the machine is identical, which is good - it is hard buying two complex items exactly the same when it comes to Chinese made machines. There is some small QC issue where some M3 brass standoffs were not screwed home because the threads in a plate had not been made deep enough. This is minor and doesn't affect the machine but still a QC issue I have reported and represents some tightening of QC is required.Both my machines sit on the floor- the screw feet are high enough that work on the machine is OK on the floor. Some users will want to put it on a bench.pictures- bolts now with washers , and new machine unpacked :-)

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 08:15:11 am
content: I think its always good when people give proper feedback on these systems, so others can make informed choices. I think it could also be interesting if you were able to give some feedback comparing the kind off weird software issues @JPlocher has documented on these forums and on YT with his SMT550 machine with any you have encountered on the Kayo. I've skipped through a couple of these as well as setup videos for various Chinese machines, and the weird bugs and ludicrous hoops they make you go through for some things is interesting and I would think a deal breaker for some use cases.In your starting post you say "this isn't a $250,00 Yamaha". Well obviously not but you also shouldn't be plucking numbers out of the air without context. Can you spend $250k on a Yamaha machine? Absolutely you can, but I have for example an offer in my email inbox right now for a brand new Hanwha (was Samsung) Pick and place with a pretty decent but pneumatic feeder package for £80k or 90K depending on if you want 6 or 10 heads. Granted this is a special offer but there's only so much discount this could represent and its a very similar class of machine to Yamaha. I can't tell you exactly how good a deal it is because I have no numbers that are even vaguely recent for machines with dumb feeders to compare it to, but then Kayo/YX etc are mostly dumb feeder machines too.

author: JPlocher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 05:45:12 pm
content: This thread gives me a small case of buyer's remorse - I was on the fence between XY and KAYO.Their PnP lines seem so similar from afar, and I'm surmising that their HW builds are of similar high quality - but from this thread, the software and support you are getting from Kayo is significantly better. YX didn't include any spare parts and has shown no indication that they are the ones actually developing the control software themselves; worse, the project and machine data formats are opaque windowsXP binary database files with no documentation available...If I got a free "do-over", I'd go with Kayo just to get the better software and supportAny clue as to whether or not the Kayo software will run a YX machine?Sigh,-John

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 11:58:37 pm
content: Hisoftware for all machines is very specific. If Kayo can improve their importers (which they have promised to do after they get their new machine out the door) , then I think the software will be pretty reasonable for the class. (the importers are still the weak point- too much reliance on manual entry of data that can be imported) .Kayo also supplied a list of spare parts (with OEM numbers) and also supply a few spares with the machine. It is comprehensive. Kayo still have some of the frustrating Chinese culture attributes, but they do seem to take suggestions more often that other manufacturers I have dealt with.***As for the $90k Samsung. WOW! . The thing is, if you are a CM, then the business case means you are going to buy a Japanese machine. I wonder how many feeders are in that $90k package ? I have about 160 feeders now. and with an 8 mm feeder costing USD60, that's quite affordable. Yes, when I insert a feeder I need to calibrate the pickup location for an 0402. (put down camera cross hairs over the pocket and tell it the offset).I guess the latest Samsung etc in the last 10 years deals with all that automatically .There is no free lunch though running your own line- there is stress and tedium in it. there are the 33% of days I think I should have just continued to use local CMs. But for low volume, I can recommend it. Be prepared to put in the same dollar value of time into your own line that the CM would charge you.... The problem I found with low volumes is that CMs do not really like low volumes, so you can end up at the bottom of the priority list if they are busy.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 02:56:35 am
content: Quote from: JPlocher on May 29, 2020, 05:45:12 pmYX is a reseller, period. I know 2 guys here that get their support (one bought directly from HWGC too) directly from HWGC but HWGC communicate in Chinese mostly. They too take advises and incorporate them into their software, that is what I heard.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 10:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: glenenglish on May 29, 2020, 11:58:37 pm75* 8x4mm25* 8x2mmWhich seems fair enough as a startand a few 12 16 24 and one 32. To which I suspect most people would need to add immediately if my experience is anything to go by.Samsung feeders have clones too, I can see them in the UK for <£200 so who knows what price you get from the source.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 11:11:26 pm
content: that looks good .but please start another topic, or join one of the other topicsThis topic is for KAYO machines.Please remove your post.There are many other pick and place topics on this board likehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/make-a-hobby-pnp-machine/msg2496237/#msg2496237best regards and good luck.

author: lilstevie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 04:40:34 am
content: Hi Glen,Great review, I am looking at the A4 and the SMT550, and your review definitely tips things towards the the Kayo. May I ask around what sort of price you picked it up including feeders?

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 07:20:58 am
content: about 8k USDfor feeders- usual Yamaha feedersLots of companies sell themBut Kayo has a very good price on them, depends how many you buy.TODAY I got my 3rd machine ... I have total now about 170 feeders.

author: lilstevie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 07:32:40 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on September 25, 2020, 07:20:58 amThanks, I had a similar quote, compared to the others its a little bit more, but from your review, and from @JPlocher's experience with the alternative it seems like it is definitely worth it.You mentioned 0201's earlier, how is your experience with those as of now? I don't do a lot with them but I do have some spread across a couple of designs.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 07:46:58 am
content: The machine wont do 0201 by itself. With my software I can just to 0201, but I get a few mispicks.if you need reliable 0201, then you need to buy a Samsung/yamaha/panasonic etc there is no free lunch.The XY drive is good . The limitation is the nozzles. The JUKI nozzles (copies) have alot of run out.I vision the nozzle every single time to ensure good 0402 pickup. - I adjust my pickup offset. 0402 is OK.tape varies, component position in tape varies, nozzle runout varies- that's the issue.To do 0201 you need much higher quality nozzles and shafts.

author: lilstevie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2020, 10:30:16 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on September 25, 2020, 07:46:58 amReliable 0201 isn't a concern, 0201 at all is better than no 0201, across the 5 or 6 boards I would be running regularly I have <20 0201's which I currently do by hand

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 04:03:46 pm
content: Quote from: glenenglish on January 09, 2020, 06:28:44 amBetter than using a script, I guess this would imply placing the board rotated 180º inside the machine?

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2020, 11:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on December 24, 2020, 04:03:46 pmI don't see the need why any of this is necessary? Both the Kayo offline programming software and the on-machine import treat the camera side as the natural 0,0 origin of the PCB. So it's the same as the view in CAD. Also, the offline programming does facilitate rotation of the entire board when needed.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 06:26:33 pm
content: Quote from: glenenglish on September 25, 2020, 07:46:58 amAre you sure it's the nozzle and not the nozzle adapter?

author: pan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 05:38:39 pm
content: Thanks for the detailed review! It helped me a lot deciding. I ordered the new Kayo S600 some time ago, and it is currently on a container ship somewhere. It will be here in 20-30 days or so I guess.I have had a similar experience as the topic starter. The process and communication has been very good from the beginning and forward. Updates on the progress without asking, and I even got videos from their inhouse testing of the machine. The last picture I got was when everything was packed in a wooden box and loaded onto the truck for transport.I have ordered electric as well as pneumatic feeders, and I noticed in the datasheet for the electric feeder that it is required to supply the 24V externally by doing some modifications. I sent an email about this to get some more info, and received a reply the following day. I did not have to worry about that since it was already taken care of and ready for electric feeders. Very nice!