EEVblog 1508 - We FINALLY Got Alkaline Battery LEAKAGE! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2022, 11:38:40 pm
content: After the 3+ year experiment that started in March 2019 we FINALLY have some alkaline battery leakage failures! Did the Duracell's fail?That pesky potassium hydroxide forming potassium carbonate.Battery leakage video playlist:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL24OiKqd2iN9n2Xk_7Y0gN5t44vtBud_C

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 02:45:53 am
content: 8:25 Best before 12-2026.

author: Per Hansson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 07:57:20 am
content: I did laugh out loud to this comment

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 09:08:53 am
content: This one is for all those people who say Varta never leaks.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 10:51:59 am
content: The dry cells also leak. There is a difference in where they leak: it is usually somewhere on the outer shell, as the outer shell is the zink and used up when empty. So they kind of leak by design - just the plastic wrap and paper with the modern ones keeps the liquid in. The liquid is usually thickend to some degree, so that the leakage is ideally limited. It is still enough to cause damage. With the dry cell the mechanical stress in the holder can make a difference. With some empty one the outer shell can litterally fall appart.For a study on leakage it may be more feasible to get in contract with a place collecting old batteries and ask to sort through them and do the statistics on those old batteries.It may still be a bit biased, as badly leaking ones may end up in the normal waste more likely than just empty. The good before date gives a hint on how old the batteries are.

author: azi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 03:31:20 pm
content: I have some suggestions for future tests, based on my own experience.1. Years ago I was shopping on eBay for a model of electronic photo flash. It was difficult to find one that did not have corroded battery terminals from leaking batteries. The flash took 4 AA cells. So I suggest discharging the batteries with many 10-20 second high-current drains from the batteries, nearly short circuiting them.2. A problem I observed more recently was that the high-power UV flashlight I gave my girlfriend for seeing scorpions had leaky batteries after she got bored looking at glowing scorpions and left it in a drawer with the batteries still in it. The flashlight takes 6 AA cells. I do not know how much current it draws when lit, but it is extremely bright for its size, and the batteries wear out pretty quickly. In this case, it was powered on for a few seconds to a few minutes at a time when in use.3. My girlfriend, again! (I have been explaining not to leave batteries in things, but the idea is still new to her.) She loves to put battery-powered "candles" in the windows for Christmas. She loves Christmas lights so much that she leaves them running for months, until both C cells in each are completely depleted. In this case, the current draw is less, but it is depleting the batteries continuously all night in the long winter nights. The lights sense ambient light and turn themselves on at night. The C cells in about 5 or 6 of those light are toast by the time she puts the lights in the garage until the next year. This is in the Arizona high desert climate where the garage gets to just above freezing in the winter and around 35°C in the summer, along with a large difference between day and night temperatures year round. When I helped her set up the lights last year, most of them had leaking (Energizer) batteries.The first two involved high current draw that may have warmed the batteries. The third happened to batteries that were depleted more gradually, but then stored in a place that got hot on a daily basis for months.How about depleting the batteries with a duty cycle, then you can store them outdoors in Sydney for an entire summer?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 03:40:02 pm
content: isn't it time a class action lawsuit was filed against this endless misery ? how much longer will this be tolerated ?This year alone i lost a fluke multimeter, my laser distance meter, two flashlights, and a soap dispenser. Duracell, rayovac and energizers.For critical stuff i started using Energizer lithium. Those don't leak as the chemistry is different. but they are very expensiveI'm looking into those usb rechargeable lithium cells now.-edit-i found out someone did that. Duracell Duralock 10 year guarantee. Case dismissed ... why ? judge states: it's made by humans, you can't expect it to be perfect.So basically guarantee means NOTHING.https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/duracell-class-action-lawsuit-over-leaky-batteries-dismissed/Any politician willing to put forward a law that says battery manufacturers will be responsible for the repair/replacement cost of the device damaged by their leaky battery will get my vote. Even if it is Trump.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 01:41:25 am
content: What surprised me is that it shows leakage is more likely than I expected.(1)Way more! So far I believed it’s a negligible phenomenon. But the experiment moves that estimate to where experiencing alkaline batteries leaks is a normal and expected thing. I stand corrected, thank you!One question remains unanswered: if that’s something that is likely during normal use or will only occur after 2–3 years in storage. You said you didn’t check them for quite some time, so the time span is huge.(1)If the experiment is representative and it’s not a fluke.

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 02:22:33 am
content: I used to work at a beach resort with electronic locks. We had a lot of problems with batteries leaking. The company supplying the locks actually switched to Duracell to cut down on the leaks. (150 or so locks)We still had some still leak. Even some new cells I just kept in my car. The common thing in my case was 100F± heat. With the locks in direct sunlight, who knows how hot they would get. The ones that leaked in my car would have also gotten very hot at times.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 05:58:43 am
content: Quote from: azi on October 15, 2022, 03:31:20 pmThat doesn't explain all the remote controls with leaked batteries in them, or the battery in my Aneng AN8008, or the leaked batteries in unopened packets, or...Quote from: JustMeHere on October 16, 2022, 02:22:33 amStatistics: If you use a lot of batteries you'll get a lot of leaks.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 06:11:44 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2022, 03:40:02 pmOnce is happenstanceTwice is coincidenceThe third time is enemy actionBy the 12th time, maybe it's you

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 06:21:00 am
content: Quote from: golden_labels on October 16, 2022, 01:41:25 amIt's a slow process.If your "normal use" means changing the batteries every few weeks then any leakage during that time will be so small that you won't see it without careful inspection.My theory is that all alkaline batteries start leaking the second they come off the conveyor belt. Some just take much longer than others to make a mess.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 06:50:38 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2022, 03:40:02 pmUntil you admit the real problem and switch to NiMH?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–metal_hydride_battery

author: azi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 03:26:41 pm
content: I concur with that! I switched to "pre-charged" NiMH AA and AAA cells (mostly Eneloop) years ago and have not bought an alkaline since. I am very happy with them.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 05:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2022, 03:40:02 pmAccording to the topclassactions.com page cited, the judge ruled that the "10-year guarantee" was, legally, an "express warranty", not a guarantee. A warranty is a pledge to repair, replace, or refund. A guarantee is a pledge that nothing can possibly go wrong.

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 07:41:38 pm
content: QuoteNone of the batteries kept in cool storage leaked.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 02:44:30 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2022, 06:50:38 amnot a solution. 1.2 volt just doesn't cut it. I have a tv remote that will not work with nimh. and I don't really want to muck with rechargeable all the time.I'm now trying out the lion based usb chargeable AAA cells. they produce 1.5 volt due to some internal circuitry. We'll see how that goes.I am 52 years old. my first toy train at age 3 was destroyed by .. leaky batteries. We've had more than 50 years of this bullshit. Why can the (alkaline) battery industry not make a battery that does not leak ? Are they that incompetent ? or is there something else going on ?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 03:30:05 am
content: I think I'm going to have to get a proper temperatue and humidity chamber...This would do nicely!https://www.sonacme.com/products/11.html(don't ask the price)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 03:51:12 am
content: Damn, this looks nice, and kinda affordable:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003800389860.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004621975248.htmlA Nuve ES120 temperature chamber I was eyeing off was a very ouchy $4500Crowd fund the test?EDIT: Looks like the 0degC one is $7400

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 04:14:48 am
content: more like a kickstarter or "Go fund me" heck let's have Dave startup a whole new company! Say $200K?SO many things here. NiMH at 1.5v, however for AA and AAA they have full 1.5v NiMH, expensive though.Class Action suit. Does the advertising on the packaging itself say "Guaranteed for 10 years" ? or up "up to 10 years guaranteed"? is there one of those tiny * or cross or whatever that you have to search all over the back for the limitations? Plus, anyway, so they leak and they give you a free replacement -uh, the device is damaged! or will repair.. How do you repair a battery? even computer tablets or other low-cost devices, they just swap you a new one, and send the "defective" one back to the factory, where they collect 100's of them and sell them to some ebay seller for pennies per unit!Ah yes, the guarantee!. how about the "lifetime guarantee" when it does go bad and you find the company, a reputable large American company, already went out of business? OOPS!For me, what about the time you put fresh alks. in use it, put it away thinking your going to use it next week or so...stuff comes up or change and you forget to pull then and Yay, LEAKAGE!For me Re-chargeables where they work, those AA 1.5v lith for what is long-term, Lith-ion for all those odd voltages and sizes, and alks....only if I have to. I dread inserting new alkaline batteries.One thing. I just cannot buy Energizer batteries and even remove them in devices that are sold with them. It comes from one experience. I bought a set of 4 in that plastic packaging. I went to open the package to use then after the purchase:all 4 had leaked and the use-by date, was, long into the future. basically, I estimate manufactured one month ago. This soured me on Energizer brand, and now always Duracell. point here is. people swear by varying brands and types, yet, one experience like that and they lose a customer FOREVER and tells everyone else their experience.hmm, maybe I should have called them for a replacement. OOPS!temp and humidity chamber sounds great!Dave: maybe a bulk purchase for all of us, with a great discount? say 100,000 chambers for, what? $99?? how about that kickstarter? and we ALL get one as a gift? kinda like what Oprah used to do?LOLOOPS! just re-checked your temp/humidity chamber price.. so $500K kickstarter!, Oh WTF, let's just go for a million $$ kickstarter!

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 04:28:45 am
content: Seriously, follow up:how about adding a Silica Gel Desiccant Canister?https://www.amazon.com/Indicating-Desiccant-Canister-Dehumidifier-Reusable/dp/B09374N7WL/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3O43528I4G2WV&keywords=de-humidity+metal+pack&qid=1665980480&sprefix=de-humidity+metal+pack%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-2into those bins? and caulk seal them? and wait 10 years?Maybe by a mini fridge to keep at 68f (20c) degrees or 60f degrees, (not too cold, not too hot)?OK, more like just an idea. I have a mini frig used separately for photo film and paper, (yes, I still print using a darkroom) while food frig remains below 40f degrees, I seal or double seal the photo stuff at about 62f degrees and freeze the long-term film.of course, I already had the mini-fridge from college and the Silica Gel Desiccant Canisters I bought in quantity when I was living near the beach.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 04:38:20 am
content: Quote from: TheNewLab on October 17, 2022, 04:28:45 amI already have a small manual thermal chamber. The key is to temprature cycle and humidity cycle. Preferably you'd have seperate temperature and humidity chambers so you can do two different types of tests at once.Not expensive to get a decent temperature chamber, but one that adds programmable humidy adds to the cost a lot.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 04:52:37 am
content: Or the $3800 cheap 25C+ model plus a cheaper thermal test chamber might be cheaper and better combo?One chamber to be temp only cycling from 0C, and another to do humidity and higher temps over ambient?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 05:08:03 am
content: Another one:https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Liyi-Environmental-Climatic-High-And-Low_1600429943491.html

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 05:19:28 am
content: Thought experiment continues:Quote from: EEVblog on October 17, 2022, 05:08:03 amhmm, $2,580.00 now we're getting more affordable. Still with one chamber or a couple that figured multiplies up. How about checking manufacturer specs on their batteries, and choose just a few temp/humidity settings? Time, well ten years is absurd for any of us to do. There is the idea of accelerated tests. Film companies can do that, and they do and include it in their specs and packaging. but how test 2 years in six months or longer?killer here is: time, your time, cost, and space. for me it would become an obsession

author: manicdoc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 05:28:34 am
content: The batteries that leaked, did you buy them from Woolworths?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 05:29:54 am
content: Quote from: TheNewLab on October 17, 2022, 05:19:28 amThat's why you do daily cycle testing. Ramp it up and down until one breaks.QuoteI have the space. Set and forget.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 05:43:24 am
content: Quote from: manicdoc on October 17, 2022, 05:28:34 amWhere did I buy those from? a photo supply store (excellent store) or Best buy? maybe the one that survived, Walgreens? it wasn't THAT long ago!Dave, Ah, yes, cycling it." I have the space. Set and forget."Then if you're willing I know ALL of us would appreciate it, plus this is an issue that irritates everyone. I would expect you to break a record for the most views. Plus Christmas is coming up, and I am tired of those stupid battery life tests each year that some consumer news guy reports.If you find the ideal humidity, I'll find the ideal material that holds it that RH. but, hold me to it! remind me. better, do the Chinese cultural thing, be irritating and blunt in reminding me. I grew up with that.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 06:08:02 am
content: Hit up some home brew beer folks if you want temp control without going to that kind of expense.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 07:42:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 17, 2022, 04:38:20 amPlug it into a lamp timer that turns it on for a set period of time each day. If you want something fancy, buy or build a proper temperature controller with a programmable profile, I'm sure there must already be an arduino program to do this floating around somewhere. Raspberry pi with a temperature sensor, SSR and a python script would do it too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 09:36:29 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 17, 2022, 07:42:23 amYeah, not hard to coerce my existing peltier thermal chamber to do some form of cycling.I do want a proper large thermal chamber for electronics testing though, so I'm probably going to get one of those anyway. One with way better thermal capacity and ramping capability.I could even bodge in those humidity atomizers perhaps to get greater than ambient humidity.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 12:06:55 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2022, 02:44:30 amNothing else you own can switch over because you have one remote that can't?Sounds like a job for:https://www.batteroo.com/Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2022, 02:44:30 amWhy would it be any more "mucking" than Alkalines?

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 03:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 17, 2022, 03:30:05 amHaha! Dave looking for an excuse to buy himself a new toy!Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2022, 06:21:00 amOf course it is. But slow is not the same as uniform. Dave was checking them for some time with no sign of any leaks. Then there was a period when he was not looking at them, during which they all leaked.Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2022, 06:21:00 amIn this context “leak” is understood as making a mess, not merely having a single atom of potassium hydroxide escaping. This is an event in the second derivative over the leak rate, speaking in mathematical terms.Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2022, 02:44:30 amPerhaps replace the broken TV remote? Yes, if a device with no reason to have particularly narrow power requirements fails to operate with NiMH, I call it outright broken. If it can’t use NiMH at all, it also can’t use alkaline batteries through huge part of their discharge curve. And that’s a design flaw for something like a TV remote, which from ground up is built with battery operation in mind.If you demand a class action against manufacturers of “broken” alkaline cells, you should also consider your TV remote to be equally broken, right? So that’s a poor argument.Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2022, 02:44:30 amPerhaps the things that is going on is… reality? You know, that horrible part of our life that makes us unable to have fun things like $1 tickets for a 2h travel to spend holiday on an exoplanet. Chemistry, physics and other scary stuff! Unless you can of course point to any technology that has been deployed and proven to not have leaks. But then you also must deal with the issue of intellectual property.Whatever was the reason for no new developments in the past decades, in 2022 there is no incentive. This is the endgame for alkaline batteries. One they are doomed to lose. Manufacturers are more likely to squeeze the last penny out of the obsolete technology or pull the product out of the market, than invest into improving a zombie.There is the issue of providing misleading information to the customers, regarding advertising batteries as not leaking or suggesting device replacement is a realistic option. But that practice is rampant all across the market, not related to alkaline batteries, and you seem to be more concerned with the leaks than one company making bullshit claims.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 06:24:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 17, 2022, 12:06:55 pmit's an example. There are other devices that do not play well with 1.2 volt cells. the battery gauges don't read correctly, or they simply do not work at such low voltages. Smoke alarms ? beeep beepQuotei can walk into any store and buy one-time use cells. not so with rechargeables.if the charger goes out : stuck.i've been in situations like that. you can much easier find one-time use cells than rechargeable ones.and good luck finding oddball cells. c-cell ? coincells ? quad A cells 2/3 a cells ?50 years of leaking cells. FIX IT !

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 06:29:33 pm
content: Perhaps replace the broken TV remote? Yes, if a device with no reason to have particularly narrow power requirements fails to operate with NiMH, I call it outright broken. If it can’t use NiMH at all, it also can’t use alkaline batteries through huge part of their discharge curve. And that’s a design flaw for something like a TV remote, which from ground up is built with battery operation in mind.this remote has a microphone built in and uses bluetooth. it is power hungry. nimh is "empty" after barely a day because it hits 1.2 volts. a 1.5 volt cell holds that level much longerno replacing possible.Quote50 years, and they have not been able to design a proper seal ? crap engineering.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 09:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2022, 06:24:27 pmEntire technology rejected because it's easier in the deep, dark corners of your laziness to keep throwing landfill-to-be at a problem.If the charger goes bad, go buy your landfill and use it for a short while until you get a new charger.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:56:11 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2022, 06:24:27 pmIn an emergency? Buy alkalines.Then replace them when you get a chance.Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2022, 06:24:27 pmHow often does that happen compared to not having any spare alkaline batteries in the house?PS: You're allowed to own two chargers.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:03:12 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2022, 06:29:33 pmHow is the seal not properly designed? I did not hear about any alkaline cells exploding from pressure recently. So I would say the seal works perfectly as intended: it releases potassium hydroxide. What improvement could be done to it?

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 02:22:31 am
content: Dave:Also try looking up "incubator chambers", especially ones used for insects and seedlings. These have varying amounts of humidity and temperature control, including programmable cycling ability.This might (?) work, it says it has a compressor, humidifier water tank and heater.EDIT: You already commented on this bit.Otherwise: it'd probably be cheaper to try and make one yourselfStart with very small thick foam boxes (a few liters) to keep the volumes of energy & water super low. Start with just temperature (eg peltiers & heatsinks & fans inside+out), then tackle humidity (eg two optional PVC plumbed air loops, one to dessicant and one to water chamber).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 01:54:12 pm
content: Maybe you are not old enough to remember Dave, but carbon-zinc "dry" batteries make a horrible mess when they leak; if anything the result is worse than from an alkaline cell. From Wikipedia:Zinc–carbon cells have a short shelf life, as the zinc is attacked by ammonium chloride. The zinc container becomes thinner as the cell is used, because zinc metal is oxidized to zinc ions. When the zinc case thins enough, zinc chloride begins to leak out of the battery. The old dry cell is not leak-proof and becomes very sticky as the paste leaks through the holes in the zinc case. The zinc casing in the dry cell gets thinner even when the cell is not being used, because the ammonium chloride inside the battery reacts with the zinc.One of the big advantages advertised for alkaline cells over carbon-zinc cells when they initially became available was not leaking.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 02:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on October 17, 2022, 11:03:12 pmeuh. like , not release potassium hydroxide or anything else ? Isn't that what a seal does : keep stuff inside the containment vessel?It'd be a pretty poor cork seal if it lets the wine out of the bottle..

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 02:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 18, 2022, 01:54:12 pmand they have been spreading that lie ever since...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 02:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 17, 2022, 09:50:35 pmNo it is not rejected. There are many situation where you have no other option.Electricity goes out. oops , how am i going to charge my cells now ? alkaline cells come "precharged".I've been many times on travels where a quick dash to the store saved the day ( photo camera , video lights, underwater flashlight. rechargeable cells ? good luck. I've been on islands where power goes out regularly. Standard cells are easy to get. but you have to inspect the packaging. many have already leaked in the package while waiting on the shelf waiting to be sold.When do you need a flashlight ? when it's dark and regular lights are not working/ avaialble ( power out , fuse blown , whatever reason)What happens when you need a flashlight ? it doesn't work. Batteries empty and/or leaked. find batteries in the dark , try to pry out the leaked ones in the flashlight , clean the conatcts, hope the fresh pack has not leaked in the blister and try to get the thing working.Everyone knows the frustration.Batteries should not leak.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 02:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 17, 2022, 10:56:11 pmwhen traveling remote : often. and carrying two chargers is extra weight , hassle and if the power on the island goes down : tough luck.it always happens at the most inappropriate moment. I was stuck in a tropical storm and we lost power for 3 days. good luck charging your stuff. local store had alkalines and people were buying all of them.and taking batteries on an aircraft is also a problem these days...it's easier to go somewhere, buy the batteries local and done.anyway, all these what-if's are moot.We've had over 50 years of batteries and they still leak. Why can this not be solved ?is it a manufacturing defect ? some leak form a given batch , others don't... mechanical problem in the sealing process ?is it the way they are used ? way of discharge ?is it a design defect ? wrong seal material used ?is it a long term chemical reaction ? composition of the battery. zinc batteries are self destroying as the contents eat the casing ...is it a contaminant ? some cells get contaminated and a chemical reaction triggers the potassium hydroxide release ?what causes some cells to leak and others not ? do we even know that ?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 03:58:43 pm
content: Some realism needs to be injected in this thread.Nothing is totally leak proof. When alkalines came out they were advertised as leak proof. Yes it was advertising hype, but the alkaline cells do go many times longer with out leaking than their predecessors. And all batteries leak eventually. I have had leaking NiCds and leaking NiMH. So far haven't had leaking lithium chemistry, but have had explosive failure in them. We all have to recognize that no battery chemistry is truly install and forget. And there will be some penalty to pay for getting closer to that goal: price, energy density, discharge rate or something. TANSTAAFL.This failure is heavily influenced by operating conditions. My personal experience is that most alkalines will leak when discharged far below their usable storage and left alone. Installing them in equipment that has any parasitic current draw and then throwing it in a drawer is a recipe for disaster. Obviously any self discharge can lead to this and is a limit on shelf life. As mentioned earlier in the thread temperature, temperature rate of change, relative humidity and other things may also contribute to leaking.There are obviously things related to manufacturer, manufacturing plant or possibly batch. Until recently I had never encountered leakage with unused cells. But now have two cases, both with multiple cells leaking. I buy these cells in large packages (24-40 cells) due to the major discount. The packages involved had been stored for a period not less than three years, and not more than six. One was Duracell, the other Kirkland (the Costco house brand, actual manufacturer unknown). Interestingly packages of Harbor Freight chinesium batteries of similar vintage haven't leaked yet.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 06:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 18, 2022, 02:18:11 pmI am not sure it was a lie initially. This subject has come up in the forum before; the tentative consensus was that small amounts of mercury were added to alkaline cells to somehow prevent leakage, and after it was removed, the cells leaked but the advertising did not change.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 09:12:54 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 18, 2022, 02:17:08 pmIf the wine has to vent gases then it can't be a perfect seal.

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 02:58:26 am
content: My thoughts are: what will damage the seal.1) Thermal expansion and contraction cycles. The two metals move different ways and work the seal loose.2) Physical damage. Dropping the remote would also damage the seal.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 03:02:28 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 18, 2022, 02:17:08 pmI believe that, at this point, it’s clear that explaining how an alkaline battery works is necessary. I avoided that so far, as chemistry is not my thing, but it seems unavoidable now.Alkaline battery operationis described on Wikipedia and I will just sum it up. Zinc reacts with manganese dioxide, with potassium hydroxide acting as the electrolyte. Potassium hydroxide is dissolved in water, forming K+and OH-ions, and the negative ions participate in the reaction. Theoretically the reaction is perfectly balanced.Reality is, however, not perfect. Reactions do not happen instantenously, molecules are not everywhere in perfect proportions all the time and the entire process does not happen in a vacuum away from any other substance. We have positive potassium ions dissolved in water. Potassium loves reacting with water and that’s a veryviolent relationship. While in an alkaline battery the raction is not as impressive as what you get bythrowing alkali metals into water, but it still happens — slowly, over time. And the reaction is: 2K++ 2H2O → 2KOH + H2. Do you see the second product? That is hydrogen, which slowly accumulates in the battery, increasing pressure.If you have a perfectly sealed container and pressure rises inside that container, do you know what happens? Kaboom. Do you want kaboom that spreads a strong base, a mild neurotoxin, and a gas, whichmixed with oxygen in air will happily explode on any source of ignition? I believe not. That would deal much more damage not only your devices, but also you. So alkaline batteries have a seal at the bottom, which is expected to let pressure out safely. The battery still spills its guts, but only just a bit and in relatively peaceful manner.The problem is not the seal. The problem is chemistry of alkaline batteries. It’s a problem inherent to their operation.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 03:20:29 am
content: Quote from: golden_labels on October 19, 2022, 03:02:28 amAll correct. And a vent could be engineered that would tend to pass the H2without passing the other materials. Not perfectly separating them, since there is no such thing as perfection, but reducing the amount of undesired stuff released from the case. But it would undoubtedly occupy volume that is currently dedicated to battery capacity, or add cost or reduce safety margin or perhaps all of the above plus some other unwanted consequences.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 03:28:11 am
content: A funny thing: while checking information, I realized I missed the obvious.Can’t it be addressed? I do not say it can’t. But it’s not the seal. It’s chemistry that has to be changed. Why did thoseevilbattery manufacturers not come up with a solution? As it happens… they did over 50 years ago. The new, better alkaline batteries not only not release hydrogen, while operated within specs. The designers were so smart that one of the anodes absorbs hydrogen! And those are widely available nowadays. There is one obstacle in adoption, though. There is that person, who refuses to use them, because their poorly designed TV remote will not work. The better, non-leaking alkaline batteries are NiMH cells.free_electron: please do not get me wrong. I resonate with your will to change things. I am an activist since I was 15. But an action, that is really intended to change something, should serve some purpose. Not just releasing anger. And in this case I can’t really see that purpose.I was genuinely not realizing that NiMH are the answer to the hydrogen generation problem, until I started verifying if I got everything right in my previous post. And even without NiMH making such claims moot, I did not see what would the class action mean regarding the leaks themselves. What’s the goal? Withdrawing of alkalines from the market altogether? Making them prone to rupturing violently? Enforcing some form of a strong warranty, which — given that’s a dying technology — would simply become an obligatory insurance for which consumers must pay?As for the class action you mentioned, unfortunately we do not know the important details. Judge’s explanation seems reasonable to me, given what I expect were the arguments of the plaintiff. Yes, I consider the claims on Duracell’s package to be misleading marketing bullshit. Not deviating from typical stuff, though. But “I consider” is not an argument in court.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 05:07:44 am
content: Quote from: golden_labels on October 19, 2022, 03:28:11 amI don't consider the NiMH a panacea. They have advantages, but also problems. Without a sophisticated charge control circuit they are prone to overheating and early failure. The have lower energy density. And it takes more effort to get your circuitry to use all the energy they do hold. I have owned quite a few and certainly haven't found them good enough to abandon other battery technologies.For me the closest thing to a "perfect" battery chemistry for small scale applications is the Lithium A123 chemistry. But it has warts also.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 04:58:13 pm
content: Quote from: JustMeHere on October 19, 2022, 02:58:26 am1 : that's why you need an elastic seal. like a rubber o-ring. Those seem to work well. proven technology.2 : o-rings (especially buna or viton) have been used in very critical systems, subject to lots of forces. they work fine.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 05:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on October 19, 2022, 03:28:11 amnot a primary cell, not 1.5 volt. off the table. and wrong answer. we are not talking to switch to nimh, we are talking solving the leaking problemWhat you are proposing is like taking all the cars off the road and switching everyone to bicycles. now there will be no more car accidents. Sure. cause you took the cars away.how about a hydrogen permeable seal ? at molecular level. like a membrane. or throw a hydrogen absorber in the mixture ?

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:36:49 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 19, 2022, 04:58:13 pmTo respond to your 1 answer: The Columbia would still exist if temperatures didn't cause O rings to fail.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:09:38 pm
content: Quote from: JustMeHere on October 23, 2022, 02:36:49 amNot everybodywho worked for NASA is convinced of that, and even Feynman's report described other serious problems.As far as alkaline cells leaking, I suspect the mercury, which was later removed, prevented a gas producing chemical reaction which would raise the internal cell pressure eventually forcing a leak through the seal.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:25:50 pm
content: Yeah, they would have kept flying that thing until something else brought it down. The odds of a fatal Shuttle accident were estimated by NASA at 1% per flight, a figure that proved to be more or less on target.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: JustMeHere on October 23, 2022, 02:36:49 amColumbia? Are you thinking of Challenger?

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:08:19 pm
content: Related, mendip_discoveryfound a leaked 9V alkalinetoday.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:25:08 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on October 23, 2022, 04:25:50 pmThere may have been an estimate like that somewhere. But before they flew the first time they had to do a safety analysis that showed a probability of fatal accident was less than 10,000. That analysis was the best estimate available at the time, but like all such analyses, is most useful at finding and eliminating failure modes. They are rarely accurate predictions of safety, because there are always things that aren't thought about until hindsight, or there is no database to predict the likelihood of occurrence or any of a number of problems.After the Challenger incident the process was repeated, with additional failure modes identified and corrective actions taken. Again the pencil whipping exercise showed an acceptable fatal accident rate of less than 10,000.The best estimator is reality, which gives a rough number of 2% with modest accuracy for the Space Shuttle system.The same process has been repeated for SpaceX and Boeing. We can only hope that reality is less unkind to them than it was to the Space Shuttle. There are reasons to think this hope is well founded, but expecting it to be three orders of magnitude better seems unreasonable to me.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 12:28:20 am
content: I don't find the safety record of the shuttle particularly alarming. Space flight is inherently dangerous, I don't think it will ever be like commercial air travel, it's always going to involve more risk just due to the sheer number of things that can go wrong, and the difficulty in recovering from any sort of mishap.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 07:32:13 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 25, 2022, 12:28:20 amThe official shuttle safety record left out things like cracked turbine impellers in the engines. Before it flew, a cracked turbine impeller was considered a "failure". After a few launches where the engines returned with these "failures" and had to be completely rebuilt, it was redefined as a maintenance problem.How many engine rebuilds due to cracked turbine impellers do you think Merlin engines have after every mission?Something similar happened with the "bent" SSRB segments.

author: Moragor
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 07:58:30 am
content: I just found a Duracell Procell that leaked unused in the packaging.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 08:43:42 pm
content: So dave are we rolling with this? Are you committed to getting that chamber? A new toy. I've been thinking of this discussion and there could be a whole series of other types of experimenting and testing with that unit. Also been thinking that the price-point you are finding is not that much for you. Considering what other premium test gear you have already acquired. Me? I fret over spending $400 for an entry-level oscilloscope...About the Columbia and Challenger. Yup Feinmann had warned about it. The Challenger disaster still shakes me up. The first disaster since 3 astronauts roasted in early Apollo, or was it Gemini.Challenger, I was working at a snack shop right next to busy Union Square. Huge foot traffic. Someone had a portable TV. as it happened, We were all glued to the horror. people were blocking up the sidewalk intersection watching this.

author: scopeman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 05:13:20 pm
content: I had an entire package of 48 Kirkland Brand (Costco) AA cells unopened that had over half of the cells leaking that I returned to Costco for a refund. This was about a year ago and the cells had an expiration date of 2026. They were stored in a closet at normal controlled house temperatures.I don't know who makes them for Costco but I won't be buying those anymore.SamW3OHM

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2023, 07:08:36 am
content: Quote from: scopeman on January 29, 2023, 05:13:20 pmSo what will you be buying instead?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2023, 10:07:56 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 30, 2023, 07:08:36 amCostco Alkalines, rated for space travel (preferably return flight travel) with a long use by date,receipt stored with the batteries in paper form, in a separate vacuum sealed dark plastic bagand a digital copy kept in the cloud,the highest cloud cluster possible, in case of claims whilst in space.Leaking alkalines are strong candidates for entry into the 'some things are certain in life' clubalongside death and taxes----------------Just today I discovered a sealed 10 pack AA alkalines (Long Life= lol) from ALDI totally leaked and crusted upstored alongside my cheapie inspection camera.Room temperature and aircon etc Luckily the plastic cover seal held as did the cardboard backing.Yet a four pack of same blue batteries, in an open heatshrink plastic, supplied with the electronic item, had not leakedPerhaps alkalines don't like to be stored with no air = ?

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2023, 04:45:24 am
content: Just discovered that a solution of 3% H202 and distilled water does an excellent job of cleaning this up. WAY BETTER THAN BAKING SOAD!!. I had it mixed about 10 to 1 with distilled water being the major component.

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 07:58:19 pm
content: Let me posit to you a question, why not just clean (with sandpaper) and/or replace the battery contacts once they leak?Seriously, I used to do this as a child. It was better than having my toys thrown away by mommy and daddy. I even took part of the aluminum blade on a plastic-wrap container, and bent off a piece until it broke (once the plastic-wrap was exhausted), to use it as a replacement for the no-longer conducting battery contacts on one of my things. That item, a small radio, still works today, IIRC.So no need to throw out your expensive Fluke DMM and toy train from when you were a boy.<- Do it.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 09:07:21 pm
content: Finding replacement contacts is not easy.The steel blade on plastic wrap container is fairly soft, not the same as a carbon steel spring. Although it might work for you which is great.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: JustMeHere on March 26, 2023, 04:45:24 amWhat? You clean leaking alkaline battery residue off with an ACID like vinegar, using a Q-tip. Then rinse with water.P.S>. This thread, reminds me keep searching for leaking Duracell batteries and sure enough two took the piss in my Thinkgeek BT joystick. But the alkaline crud dried out hard which limited corrosion. What a mess.

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 07:43:39 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 17, 2023, 09:07:21 pmUmm, you didn't quite understand. I'll show you some pictures.Ok, the radio I had done the repair on (among other things I did this to), eventually stopped working altogether. It powered on, but didn't output audio. Here's a similar model, which doesn't need it, but has the fixes I described above.On the one side, you can see the aluminum bridging the contacts. On the other, you can see 2 pieces of aluminum, one behind the other, embedded into the spring. The spring, which eventually corrodes away to the point where it will not have good contact no matter what you do, now largely servers as something to put pressure onto the battery terminal.I can't say I fully understand why this works even when sanding fails, but it does. I mean, why would 2 or 3 pieces of aluminum on top of each other conduct better than the terminals that were sanded down?Anyway, I hope it's useful.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2023, 11:15:54 pm
content: Panasonic is off my list for batteries.I bought a few packs about 6 months ago from a major retailer in the UK, they came off a large Panasonic display stand and absolutely no way they would be counterfeit.I noticed a few weeks ago some were leaking in a fresh pack. I tested about 20 of them with a multimeter and the voltages were all over the place, only 3 were near the correct voltage. I ended up throwing them out.Then this week I go to get an AA battery out of another pack in a drawer and it's leaked everywhere! these have an EXP Date of 2032.I now need to go all over the house and workshop to find where I've put about 40 of these batteries. I think there might be some in the attic in Christmas decorations as well.That's the last disposable AA, AAA or 9V cell/battery I ever buy, I'm going to pop in Ikea and stock up on some more LADDA for everything that will take a AA or AAA.I've got 20 or more things in the workshop that takes 9V batteries, including 4x Fluke multimeters, so I've bought some 9V EBL Rechargeable lithium batteries to try out, if they work okay in everything I'll buy more, if some devices are fussy I'll get some 9.6V NiMH batteries.

author: scopeman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 02:04:41 am
content: I know this is a necropost but I am moving to the Eveready Ultimate Lithium batteries for anything of value and considering the rechargable LiON AA and AAA batteries for future use. I wonder what their performance for possible leaking or self discharge.SamW3OHM

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2024, 09:35:03 pm
content: I bought the Energizer Max Plus at local dm-drogerie markt GmbH + Co. KG. Unfortunately they are made inChina. I hope it is OK.Any opinion?Energizer Max Plus seems to be their best Alkaline product.https://energizer.eu/uk/blog/product/energizer-max-plus-aa/I saw also The Max and Alkaline Power at my local shop. They are made in Belgium or Singapore.