Seek announce OEM cores - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 04:45:25 pm
content: https://www.thermal.com/oem.html

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 05:34:40 pm
content: Interesting. I am pleased to see this developmentSeek have previously supplied their cores to third parties but this looks like a concerted effort to gain take-up by more third party companies. These cores will live or die by the image quality that they can produce. The Radiometric accuracy is a bit ‘how you doin’ but may be adequate for many applications.USB connectivity to the cores caught my eye. An affordable thermal webcam at last ?Fraser

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 05:48:11 pm
content: previous discussion:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/oem-seek-cores-on-the-horizon/msg2299494/#msg2299494their QVGA core is tiny. It's 12micron pixels but as a full core this outdoes the Boson. And other cores show here(might update the seek measurements):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/rhetorical-question-will-there-be-a-qvga-or-vga-lepton/msg2713546/#msg2713546Sadly we know their shortcomings in image quality. We have seen the Lepton be embedded in a few mobile devices: phones, tablets and goggles. Let's see where Seeks core might end up. There isn't any newer Lepton in sight.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 11:28:59 pm
content: I noticed recently that DigiKey carries the Seek cores as well as the Compact & Shot units (at non-cheap prices). Looking just now I see the old cores are gone & they list one of the new ones with 6 week lead time, and a "starter kit" at 1 week lead time.A few things jump out at me in the spec's. One is that they have finally opened the aperture to F/1.0 (F/1.26 for the 6.6mm lens) so that should bring the noise down, so they might actually get to their 100mK max sensitivity. Another is the fact that the "micro core" is "shutterless", and I see that the "starter kit" for that one includes a bunch of calibration data. The third thing is the "smart pixels": "Each pixel automatically adjusts gain states to maximize resolution contrast when viewing hot and cold objects in the same scene". This sounds like it will be more trouble than the constant fiddling with pixel bias.I, of course, don't appreciate the permanently dis-focused lens configuration.When I looked at this back in the spring of this year I got the impression that Seek was going to provide the software & would customize it for the OEM if desired but now they talk about an actual SDK, which is great. I wonder if it would work with the "Compact" models. Something makes me think the SDK is like the Thermal Expert SDK.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 09:33:52 am
content: Interesting news - and yes, it will be fascinating to see the IQ they manage to produce. But with Digikey quoting US$384 for the 200x150 sensor with 35° lens I'm not expecting there to be a rush of new consumer products for a little while.On the other hand, a$38thermal imaging core, even at 200x150 resolution, might set the thermal imaging world alight. Then we'd perhaps start seeing thermal webcams - but would (could?) they be any cheaper than the higher performance Thermal Expert (etc) dongles? Only when we get cores at $3.50 in OEM quantities do I foresee a huge rush into our world by the wider public.(And even then we'd be battling ignorance: search on any of the image sites like Flickr for 'thermal' or 'X-Ray' and you'll get huge numbers of hits where people think a psychedelic palette, or negative B&W respectively, are somehow equivalent to the real technology...)

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 10:00:35 pm
content: This supposedly has a Seek OEM core in the kit, but doesn't tell which core.https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/seek-thermal/S304S/2126-S304S-ND/10492240To anyone here who nought this kit, I have a question for you. Can you tell me which core?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 11:27:32 pm
content: Ben321,If you look at the end of the SEEK Thermal OEM core data sheets, they have a section on the kits and their part numbershttps://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/mosaic_core_specification_sheet.pdfThe Digikey part you referenced is a MOSAIC 320 x 240 pixel CoreMore detail.... you get a QVGA Mosaic core fitted with a 4mm/F1 lens providing 56 Degrees HFOV at <9fpsThere are two other Kits, the lower resolution Mosaic S204SP (detailed in the above referenced data sheet) and the Micro Core MS202SP (datasheet below)https://www.thermal.com/uploads/1/0/1/3/101388544/micro_core_specification_sheet.pdfThe prices of those kits is pretty horribleFraser

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 12:27:00 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on December 17, 2019, 11:27:32 pmSo which kit has the 30hz 320z240 Mosaic core? According to the oem cores page on the seek website, a 30hz 320x240 imager is available. However I don't know if it is available as part of a kit, nor if Digikey has it (either standalone or as part of a kit).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 01:10:00 am
content: Try asking Seek Thermal ?As the datasheets says.... "Please contact your sales rep for more information on Starter Kits."It sounds like you need the S314SPX kit that is available only to approved customers who meet the requirements of the US Dual Use Technology regulationsFraser

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 02:27:36 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on December 18, 2019, 01:10:00 amGood thing then that I am a US citizen, and have lived in the US for my entire life. I won't need to sign any paperwork.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 01:26:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on December 19, 2019, 04:44:06 am+1

author: ArsenioDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 06:45:11 pm
content: Oh boy.... they're in for a rough surprise xD

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 06:43:44 am
content: Looks like the Chinese test runs went well enough to start shipping to the custom imager market.

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2019, 12:43:28 pm
content: lol have fun

author: ikrase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2019, 09:11:12 am
content: QuoteWhat's meant by that? You actually do have a bunch of credentialling and paperwork just to get your hands on those devkits?This is still very interesting and I hope the dev kits -- and the QVGA fast-framerate cameras -- will eventually be readily available.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 08:02:19 am
content: Quote from: ikrase on December 21, 2019, 09:11:12 amDoubt it. Regarding ITAR controlled products, you only need paperwork if you aren't a US citizen (but are legally living in the US) or you are living outside the US (regardless of citizenship), or you intend to ship it outside of the US after purchasing it. If you live in the US and are a US citizen and intend to use it in the US, then no paperwork. In other words, you won't need to fill out any paperwork unless your shipping address is outside the US, or they have some other reason to believe that you fit into one of the categories that requires special paperwork. I got an ITAR protected thermal camera when I bought the Seek Compact Pro with a 15fps frame rate. All I needed to do was make the purchase. No special paperwork.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2019, 12:48:38 pm
content: @Ben321 I think you may be over-optimistic. In much the same way that simply being a US citizen in good standing doesn't mean you can walk into the Oval Office or a nuclear power station anytime you like, I think you'll find that some (much) of the better thermal imaging stuff still requires more than just a chequebook.(Of course, maybe I'm wrong - the Secret Service might positively encourage random strangers to visit the Oval Office, particularly if they've recently been to see a nuclear facility and are still highly radioactive.I'm not making a political point here, I'd say the same whoever was in power).

author: ArsenioDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 04:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: Ultrapurple on December 22, 2019, 12:48:38 pmCorrect, a lot of places that sell the fun stuff require paperwork for export controlled stuff and to go fun places there is ALWAYS paperwork, I just happen to have credentials that make even getting to the paperwork easier.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 02:35:44 am
content: Quote from: Ultrapurple on December 22, 2019, 12:48:38 pmThere's basically 2 categories of thermal imager, those that can be sold both in the US and overseas without paperwork (except for a few banned countries, such as North Korea which is on a do-not-sell list for such items), and those in the more restricted category that require paperwork for overseas sales but no paperwork to sell to a US address. This hinges entirely on framerate. For <9fps there's no paperwork for overseas sales. For >=9fps there is paperwork for overseas sales. In all cases though, purchasing in the US does not require paperwork.I know this for a fact, because I already bought such a thermal imager that would have required paperwork for overseas sales. Specifically, I bought a Seek Compact Pro, which has FastFrame (15fps). I know some overseas Pro units are available without FastFrame, but in the US they send you the FastFrame unit. I can verify this because mine says FastFrame in the app when it's plugged in.The OEM modules with 30fps frame rate from Seek would fit in this same category. Buying one of these would be no harder than buying my Seek Compact Pro was. The only problem seems to be they don't want to sell to individuals, only companies. Even in the inquiry form, where you can ask them about the OEM modules, one of the REQUIRED fields is the name of your company. I have tried filling it in, with "none" as the name of the company. However, I have NEVER heard back from them. They have NEVER sent me an email reply, even to tell me "sorry, we don't sell these modules to individuals, only to companies". They instead have simply NEVER responded. In fact, after a month or so of filling in the contact form once, I did it again. Same result. Over a period of about a year, I think I filled in this contact form about 3 or 4 times, inquiring about their OEM camera cores. NOT ONCE did I EVER get a reply from them. I think this is QUITE RUDE! I would have HOPED this Seek company would have better manners than this! You know that whole customer relations thing is part of being a GOOD BUSINESS. But I guess the IDIOTS running this Seek company don't care about good customer relations, and thus they don't care about being a good business.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 07:44:54 am
content: I don't think it is as easy as making two buckets. High resolution, high accuracy, long range, weapon/vehicle mounted also matters in the regulations for thermal imagers. As well as who built the cores. seek is built by Raytheon, therefore US regulations apply.Contact forms can run you into a wall, send an email directly instead and use a proper looking email to get a reply.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 04:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: Vipitis on December 25, 2019, 07:44:54 amFramerate is the deciding factor for if it can be sold overseas without paperwork. Under no circumstance do you need to fill out paperwork to buy if you are in the US. The hardness of getting an OEM core such as the Seek Mosaic 30fps version would be no different than the hardness of getting an end-user device of similar size and capability (such as the Seek Compact Pro FastFrame), at least from a legal perspective. I was able to buy the Seek Compact Pro FastFrame without filling out any paperwork. I just made the purchase on their online store and they shipped it to me.As for the contact form, a contact form basically sends an automated email, I think. Anyway, Seek doesn't publicly publish their email address, from what I've seen. You can only contact them regarding their OEM cores by filling out the contact form on their OEM cores webpage.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 10:08:17 pm
content: What we REALLY need is for somebody from GroupGets to buy up a bunch of Seek OEM cores at a quantity discount (wholesale) price, and then sell them at a reasonable price on the GroupGets website. They did this already with the FLIR Lepton chips and associated Lepton USB interface boards (PureThermal boards). GroupGets is actually a COMPANY, so they will hopefully be able to get through to Seek by filling out their actual company information on the contact form when asking to buy the OEM cores.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2019, 11:04:30 pm
content: you can start your own campaign at GroupGets. You even get a small commission if it's hits the quota. But they still have to handle the paperwork, so it likely doesn't end with the 30hz QVGA core.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2019, 10:08:07 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 25, 2019, 04:33:11 pmNot quite correct. Your 'category 2' are Dual Use and in the US are Dept of Commerce controlled (Wassenaar) items, but these are not ITAR. Those are generally saleable internally (US to US, UK to UK etc) but cannot cross trade borders legally without paperwork (the EU is a single area).There is a 3rd category for 'ITAR', military specific items in the US. All other countries will have similar Military item lists which includes top end thermal cameras as well as tanks etc. That needs paperwork even internally.Putting 'none' on the form guarantees no reply, have you tried Ben321 Enterprises Inc ?Not that this will help much as the next thing you will get is a sales call that will suss you out as an individual.Bill

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2019, 04:19:06 am
content: Quote from: Bill W on December 27, 2019, 10:08:07 pmI don't think that 320x240 at 30fps is in the "requires paperwork even in your own country" category. The only boundary for any categories I'm aware of is the 9Hz boundary. So 15fps in Seek Compact Pro FastFrame or 30fps in the Seek Mosaic OEM Core, are both in the same category. Only thing that might be in an even higher category would be the multi-million-dollar military-grade ones that have resolutions the same as modern visible light digital cameras, like 5000x4000 or something, and are cooled with liquid nitrogen for an almost completely noise-free image. These are typically used in military nightvision-sights for tanks and attack helicopters, and stuff like that.Nothing Seek sells would be in that category.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2019, 12:01:20 pm
content: while your assumptions are still incorrect. Even if you can buy something in the US. It cannot cross borders without paperwork or be sold without letting both parties sign an end use declaration. It is likely different for an SDK product as usually modifying the product is not allowed. There will be paperwork in buying such a product as a US citizen in the US from an official reseller. Simply something that holds you accountable for not visiting NK with it or selling it to foregeiners.

author: arsenix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 04:44:13 pm
content: Digging up a slightly old thread but I think appropriate...Has anyone tested these new Seek OEM modules? I was considering buying the QVGA dev kit to experiment with. The additional resolution over the Lepton is appealing, as is the better environmental tolerance of the package and mechanics. I have quite a lot of experience with the Lepton and it has had some challenges. The Lepton's socket is somewhat problematic for one, and I have seen a reasonably high failure rate of the sensors themselves over time (estimating around 5-10%). Also I still get some random crashes that require a power cycle to clear. It is a bit more expensive but there are't a lot of options for QVGA under $500.I haven't found anything online about experiences/test results with the OEM modules. I assume these are similar or identical silicon wise to some of the products that use Seek sensors.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 05:22:59 pm
content: I have tested the original Seek Thermal J3 PRO core and found its temperature stability to be somewhat poor. There is temperature drift in the cores measurement accuracy for the whole of a 60 minute test that I performed against a known accurate professional Blackbody and constant 21C ambient temperature. This suggested a self heating issue with the J3-320 core. Temperature measurement accuracy was also less than great, but the specification suggests this with a +/-5C stated accuracy.As a side note, the standard, non PRO, Seek core is known to be less accurate than the PRO version.Ambient temperature stability of the J3 Pro core is not great. Seek Thermal state that the mosaic core is much improved in this respect.After considering my findings, my client moved to the new Mosaic cores. From what I have been told, they will be more thermally stable and accurate. I have not tested the mosaic core yet though. I asked what visible differences there were between teh J3-320 PRO and the new Mosaic Pro core. My client advised that they appeared to be the same except that the processing board has been removed from its previous location on the rear of the J3 core and is now 'air gapped' using a length of FPC. This suggests to me that the J3 processor PCB may have been a source of local heat that was effecting the stability of the J3 microbolometer.Seek Thermal advised that the new Mosaic is superior to the older J3 Pro core.As the owner of several Seek Reveal cameras, I can say that they provide accurate thermal measurements with a settling time of only 3 minutes. Though I have been advised that the Reveal does not use the whole Mosaic core, there are similarities in the design as the microbolometer PCB is connected to the main PCB using a ribbon cable so local heating is limited to the adjacent LED torch (when used) with no processor board behind the microbolometer PCB to cause issues.Is the Seek Thermal Mosaic core any good ? Well everyone will have their own opinion on this but mine is that both the Seek Thermal and FLIR Lepton cores are a compromise solution that was built down to a price. they will never deliver crisp low noise images like those that come from more expensive core and camera designs. The Seek Pro core has the advantage of higher resolution than the Lepton, but some of the expected image improvement is lost in the noise content of the image and relatively poor optics used on the core. I am impressed with the Seek Reveal Pro, but less so with the standard Seek Reveal. In my opinion, the PRO is worth the additional cost. In low Delta T scenes, the Seek Thermal cores do still struggle with their internal noise levels but the Lepton also struggles in a similar manner so neither are great in that low Delta T scenario. I can say that the Seek Thermal Pro outperforms the Lepton in many respects though and is well worth investigating. Recommending the standard Seek Thermal Core would not be so easy for me to do. It has noise issues that prove challenging to accept, even at a low 'per unit' cost.If you buy the evaluation kit for the Seek Pro you will have access to an SDK. Before you get too excited, the SDK takes the form of detailing the command set for the Seek Thermal API so you are not really directly addressing the core functionality. If you have issues with the Seek Thermal API....you are basically stuck. The SEEK Thermal core solution is a hybrid hardware/software approach that is, in some ways similar to SDR in the world of radio. The 'Front end' is the microbolometer with its lens, FFC shutter and a small processor that converts the collected scene data to a proprietary data stream that passes over a USB 2.0 link to a host. The host has the Seek API installed on it and the API provides the programmer with a choice of data at different points in the API's processing path. Even the "RAW" data output is not truly RAW. It comes after NUC, FFC and dead pixel processing. There is a non radiometric RGB data output that has Histogram image processing applied to enhance the contrast in scenes etc, and then there is a Thermographic output with no Histogram based image processing, but with accurate pixel temperature data. The Seek Reveal Pro lets the user switch between the 'Pretty' RGB mode and the less pretty, but accurate Thermography mode. The API dictates what the programmer can do with the imaging core and it can prove limiting. The API is the Software side of the Hybrid solution that is needed to produce a complete camera solution. The only alternative would be to reverse engineer the cores data stream to the host and write a bespoke API. Seek offer no information on that data link or help in making your own API.Seek are not the most open or helpful of companies to deal with so bear this in mind as well. Before committing to using their cores, you would be wise to buy the development 'kit' and test it thoroughly to ascertain whether it meets your needs. The documentation for the core and the API is not something I was greatly impressed with and you will likely be left with a lot of questions about integrating the core into a system that can produce decent results.I hope this helps you a little.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 06:10:52 pm
content: The microbolometer PCB fitted in the Seek Thermal Reveal Pro. The ribbon connects it to the main PCB and its image processing chip.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 07:02:08 pm
content: Attempted to buy a sample commercially, through a company, and to get a quote. Got one reply asking why we want a sample(to evaluate!?!?!?!?) and then got ghosted.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 07:22:08 pm
content: Seek appear keen for people to buy the evaluation kit from Digikey rather than provide samples for evaluation.They seem pretty fussy when it comes to providing technical documentation so I do not know what happens if you buy the kit from Digikey as an NDA is required for the SDK that contains essential information to use the kit. If the application for the SDK is declined, you are pretty stuck.I am under a Seek Thermal NDA that contains legal threats if I share the SDK contents. This NDA applies to the <9fps core Manual as well !Fraser

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2020, 03:17:45 pm
content: HiI bought a Handheld Thermal Cam wiht a 320 x 240 Resolution. Well its sound interesting because the might use the MOSAIC 320 x 240?! Are there any Chinese Company who build Thermal Sensors?The same for the Resolution 200 x 150 the sound familiar to.

author: arsenix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 12:42:10 am
content: Seek is a much smaller company than Flir, so I'm not surprised they try to be judicious with their support resources. When you are small resources are very finite!The Mosaic OEM is a pretty attractive package IMHO. I'm planning to get the eval kit and check it out. A bit more expensive than Lepton but the device package and resolution are appealing (assuming noise and image quality is comparable).I have been waiting for a Chinese company to develop similar modules. There are a few that have been promising for a few years (even with prototypes behind glass at CES) but none have materialized as commercial products yet AFAIK.James

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 12:49:57 am
content: I guess the Weapon grade are used internally and should not get sold officially.In Russia the start to produce there own CPUs so why not some Thermal Chips to?

author: Hoich
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 06:25:20 am
content: The Mosaic core looks familiar when looking at the Seek Shot Pro. Resolution is the same and the 4mm focal length seems to be in the same FOV region. There are some minor differences though, e.g. the slight mismatch in FOV and the difference in resolution of the 200x150 version vs. the Seek Shot (which has a 6 pixels more in every direction).

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 09:25:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on July 18, 2020, 07:22:08 pmMakes no sense to buy the eval kit from Digikey when the company refuses to talk to you about volume sales. It'd be several hundred dollars down the drain if we develop a demo product and then we can't buy the part we need to go into production.Quote from: arsenix on July 20, 2020, 12:42:10 amQuote from: Lord of nothing on July 19, 2020, 03:17:45 pmA number of companies are making similar cores commercially. Their prices are awful though. They're slowly coming out with Lepton lookalikes, but instead of $150 they cost $550(actual price given to me by one).Quote from: Lord of nothing on July 20, 2020, 12:49:57 amThey do. They don't make modules, and their sensors are still packaged in metal cans with soldered on windows, with manual per-device evacuation and sealing. Prices start around $2500 for a bare 160x120 60fps sensor with ~100mK NETD.