Companies that hide their address... why? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 11:25:21 am
content: I noticed that there are company websites that doesn't provide info about their (legal) address. Sometimes it's buried in some pdf you can download related to privacy.Usually, the first thing I do when I'm searching on the internet for a certain service or materials, is to check if they are legit. That means I want to know their address.When I cannot find it on their website, I usually skip them. What is it with those companies that they hide their address? (I'm not talking about email)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 11:39:46 am
content: Quote from: Karel on May 05, 2023, 11:25:21 amThey just don't need the publicity.Delivered equipment to such a company this morning.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 12:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 05, 2023, 11:39:46 amThen why the website...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 01:32:25 pm
content: When I come across this, then I figure they are doing something shady, or are performing a scam.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 01:35:57 pm
content: Or they like to produce and sell stuff not talk to salespeople all day long.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 01:57:03 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 05, 2023, 01:35:57 pmIf their customers cannot contact them, then they have no customer service problems.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 02:08:10 pm
content: Could be working from home, or a house rented for purely business purposes.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 03:05:55 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 05, 2023, 01:57:03 pmThey all have an electronic contact form, but I would like to know the address before contacting them.Also, the contact form does not show their email address but they do want to know mine...

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 06:44:50 pm
content: Probably because they don't want unannounced visitors? Why do you need to know their physical location?QuoteBecause posting an email address publicly on a website is the fastest way to make that email useless. It's much easier to bot-filter the web form, and after you submit it they will email you back within 1-2 business days. Then you have their email address and can continue your conversation. It's annoying, but I understand why the do it.That said, what really turns me off is when the contact us form has a bunch of required fields beyond "what are you interested in".

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 07:07:50 pm
content: This is exactly it, they don't want people dropping by. The company I work for has no receptionist, random people can't just walk into the office, and on many days most of the staff is working remotely anyway. If a person wants to contact the company they do so online and somebody will respond to them. There are loads of companies like this, they're not set up to deal with walk-ins and everyone working there is busy working, somebody will handle communications when it's convenient for them and they're not busy working.There are also a lot of smaller companies that are run out of somebody's house with all business conducted through the internet. Almost nobody wants random strangers showing up at their home, and if it's a one man operation any synchronous communication takes time away from their job, it can easily cost an entire day if interruptions occur at a regular pace.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 08:33:15 pm
content: Some use one of these buildings that just acts as an address for others. You will find 1000s registered to this address and it's just just for accounting as they are often just holding companies or there to hide the trail of money.I find it annoying when I have to go to a customer and they obfuscate the address so it makes it a pain to enter into the satnav and even more fun to find once you are near as are a company within a company and the business name isn't known to anyone nearby.So yeah I share your annoyance.These days I take the attitude that if they don't supply accessible contact details then I just don't bother with them. Clearly they don't want my custom.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 08:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 05, 2023, 12:42:56 pmTo provide an avenue for contact and a face for the organization.Potential employees and suppliers need some way to contact them and a person can filter the requests and not be besieged with walk in inquiry especially for high profile businesses, take the growing space industry as one example.I have a few customers like such doing international work with a comparatively small local market.2 quite recent customers that jump to mind do not show their physical NZ address and one in particular is a well known worldwide brand.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 09:13:44 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on May 05, 2023, 08:33:15 pmI'm not sure what you are saying. You are visiting a customer and they give you a fake address? Are they expecting you? Did you schedule the visit? Because if I am your customer and you have scheduled a meeting, I will make sure you have the correct address, not some PO box or paper address.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 09:40:59 pm
content: Sometimes if you search the company name on google maps it will show up.I will admit it can be annoying if I'm trying to buy from the closest location, and the website doesn't give the city or province in the About or Contact page. I don't care about the full address though.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 11:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on May 05, 2023, 06:44:50 pmOnes in blue uniforms?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 05:57:28 am
content: There are some valid reasons. For example, I actually have a business of my own (which I operate in addition to my day job). Sure, it's not generating huge turnover, but there are times where I'm asked to do contract work for various things, so I need to operate as a business entity as opposed to "doing a favour for a mate".Because I'm a sole trader, I don't want my home address exposed. Even my business registration is not registered here, because of security concerns. It's not illegal and it's the way I choose to operate. If you're contacting me for work, it's because you've already met me, or you've been put in contact with me by someone else who knows me personally.Whether I'm operating a business or not, my home address is private and should not be accessible to anyone other than who I choose to share it with.If the Australian Taxation Office need to speak to me, they know how to reach me.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 06:22:14 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on May 05, 2023, 09:13:44 pmI get a mix of issues, part of it is my works fault. At times my paperwork will have the address for the head office where the accounts are done. I need to find the site they have in Wilton and that is all I have. At times I am doing a different onsite each day so I don't have the head space to be planning and working out these issues until the night before or the morning of the job. Going to the main website and they don't list the addresses of the other sites just makes it tougher.I have an address on my paperwork when you put the address into google maps I get the rough area that the firm is located but they could be anywhere on that industrial site or postcode area so I might not be on the right road so takes time to find them. Even worse when it's a company that has a different company in the building as they are doing a Trading As type thing.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 07:27:57 am
content: On the web since 1995, any info like email address, phys address, name, can be mined by the bots and added to spam, fraude, and malware databases sold on darknet or by government and terrorist regimes...We "munged" our site decades ago and have reduced the threats and spam to an extent.Nowadays the threat is constant and ever increasing...Russia, China, North Korea, Iran......In case you need to check a firm's existence or rep, and it is listed on the US stock exchanges, just use the USA SEC EDGAR site,https://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearchsearch the name for the 10K, 10Q and other required corporate filings that are public info.Be safe,Jon

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 07:52:46 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on May 05, 2023, 06:44:50 pmBecauseQuote from: Karel on May 05, 2023, 11:25:21 amIf you don't know the address, or the address is not legit you can't send the police in case of a scam. Been there.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 12:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 05, 2023, 01:57:03 pmAnd it's a customer problem when they show up with an axe on your front step demanding a fix for some issue. Which may or may not be the shop's fault, at all. A customer can be tech-illiterate. Or as a webshop you rely on a manufacturer doing a proper refurb but still messes up. There are tons of legit reasons, but customers will be (sometimes stupid) customers and find reasons to be pissed off at you.And then you still have someone with an axe on your door step.Don't get me wrong. It indeed does sound a bit shady. But say you're an internet-only webshop. What purpose does a physical address have? Do you have a showroom?(internet-only=no) Do you have a service desk?(internet-only=no) Can gov find you?(yes, if need be) Then listing the address will only cause more problems:- Unsolicited customer visits (legit questions or with an axe)- Other companies trying to scam you by sending random invoices for "consultancy work" under a registered letter (e.g. claiming to have send you unsolicited advice in some other registered letter)- etc.Honestly I think hiding a visitor address isn't the worst. Sure, if a company is ignoring your issue, then showing up physically can make it very urgent. But that also predisposes the kind of customers you will still find at your doorstep, and since we live in 2023 where many people order crap online (through Amazon or whatever), then as a business it will only cause problems. And here I'm assuming that business is doing legit work and trying their best. It's probably better to hand money back to these kinds of customers anyway, as you don't want to have these people as your customer.I think companies that hide all human contact information is far worse. E.g. which number to call, or mail address to send, if you have a problem with your private Facebook, Microsoft or Google account? There is none. They will have some FAQs with dummy tier troubleshooting, and a chatbot that refers to those articles. Yet I'm pretty sure that almost everyone (once had) an account at 1 or multiple of these companies. What a great way of doing business..Then there are large physical corporations that make contact information unnecessarily hard to find, where I presume they do that to reduce costs (less people finding phone number = less calls = smaller call center). Mediamarkt in NL is a classic where it takes half a dozen 'correct' clicks to find their actual contact information, whereas on the Belgium website its literally 1 click on "contact" (maybe Belgian people like to skip BS?)Honestly I was amazed that I could call a company like Apple the other day. I'm not trying to make out I'm a fanboy, because Apple in other ways is a horrible corporation. But when I had a problem with my (new) AppleID, they have a human chat serviceplusa phone agency that called me back the same day.Yet I think their (only) physical store in NL is a 2hr drive away from me.E-mail is a bare minimum, phone is nice for urgent questions.

author: rodcastler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 12:37:47 pm
content: I work for one of the largest tech companies in the world that has been around for more than four decades and is currently one of the leaders in the industry. The street address is nowhere visible on the website and that doesn't make the company it any less legit.I also run a small business of my own, from home, and I don't publish my address anywhere on that website either because well, it's my home.Back to the large company scenario, it makes no sense to publish a street address on the website. What for? Customer support is performed 100% digitally, so is product delivery, contract signing, payments, product development and so on. Plus, in the past 2 years we've been reducing office space everywhere towards a home office model so yes: you will find plenty of physical addresses on the web or some legal document but it will be of no use to our customers, at all.We live in a world where your website IS your address. I can relate to the fact that for many of us a street address provides a certain sense of security, but to me that is merely a psychological matter, and I can anticipate the generations that come after us will not even think of this.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 12:45:19 pm
content: In the European Union, EU directive 2000/31/EC makes it a legal requirement that contact information and address are provided on any website which offers "information society services". Member states have to put appropriate national legislation in place, e.g. in Germany the "Telemediengesetz" (TMG).That strange term "information society services" is defined broadly and includes e.g. online shops, online product catalogs, and other information offerings which serve a commercial purpose (and are typically, but not necessarily, offered for a charge). So there should not be much debate whether a EU-based commercial website makes the company's address available.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 05:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on May 06, 2023, 06:22:14 amThat sounds like a problem with the company you work for rather than the companies you are visiting. If they are going to send you out to a customer site, it is their duty to make sure they have a correct and concise address included in the paperwork you get, along with any specific instructions for locating or gaining access. You should not be expected to rely on public internet sources to find your destination.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 06:00:15 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 06, 2023, 12:45:19 pmThat's bizarre, and people actually operate home based businesses under those rules? There is no way I would do that, my home address is private, there is absolutely no reason for it to be publicly posted. Here standard practice for home based businesses is to use a PO box for all physical correspondence.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 06:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on May 06, 2023, 07:52:46 amIf it's a registered business the authorities are able to get the physical address of the owner.If it's a scam business they could just as easily list a fake address. Say you look on their site and it shows an address, you look that up on google and it's a nondescript business park a few hundred miles away, how do you know it's legit? Are you going to drive there and check it out before you do business? After you get scammed, maybe the authorities drop by and it turns out it's just an empty building, or occupied by some other business, what good did that do? Having a reasonable looking address doesn't mean the company is legit.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 06:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 06, 2023, 06:00:15 pmWell, if you choose to make your home address also your business address, it is no longer private.The EU Directive requires the "geographical address", and I am pretty sure that this deliberately excludes P.O. boxes, the reason being that an address suitable for service of process is required. Which I find entirely plausible, in the interest of customer/consumer protection, as discussed by others above.Business owners who want to avoid disclosing their home address typically contract with an office service provider -- to have access to office and meeting space on demand, or just to receive mail.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 06:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 06, 2023, 06:16:22 pmI'm just thinking of cases such as a fuel injector cleaning service that is located somewhere not far from where I live. It's pretty obviously a one-man operation, likely just based out of his garage. The physical address isn't listed anywhere on the website, just the PO box where you send your injectors to. I've used them before and I was happy with the work, it's obvious why they don't want random customers dropping by, there would be some wanting to hang out and chat, or wishing to drop by at odd hours wanting to pick up or drop off their order, and likely the occasional pissed off customer who is unhappy for a reason that may or may not be legitimate showing up on their doorstep, that's not a good situation. The government will have the name and physical address of the proprietor on file but it's not publicly available and I see no reason why it should be.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 07:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 06, 2023, 12:45:19 pmInteresting.I understand its aim for e-commerce. It's interesting that article 5 of that directive also cites that just email is sufficient for rapid communications. There is no mention of phone.Either big corporations are escaping this ruling for 2+ decades, or it doesn't apply to them. Google, Facebook, etc. are not e-commerce in its core activity. They may be commercial entities, but customers typically do not spend money on them. Although Play and Oculus App store begs to differ. So now I'm also a bit confused.But regarding e.g. a freelancer or private consultant, I'm not sure how these rules apply. Safest bet is to include information, but then I could also devil's advocate based on 2 arguments:1) If nobody cares about it, you probably get away skipping it 'for now'. It becomes an issue when its urgent (TM).2) One could argue that a freelancer or consultancy homepage does not include a commercial transaction, but is just a digital visitor card for someones services. Many sites that offer information providing and commercialize based on ad revenue is perhaps similar. If you cannot spend money on a site, it can still mean the site has a commercial intent, however to what extent does need to follow this ruling.I know it does play very well in the data-driven society where the internet of a gold mine for advertisers with restrictive EULAs that you "agree upon" by "using" a website, without any repercussions.As long as handing over data is not seen as a commercial transaction, this remains a problem.That directive does state its main target is "in particular" e-commerce, so I think its open for interpretation and argument which commercial activities are particularly bound to its internet presence. Maybe a jurist/lawyer/judge case will have to attempt to clarify the intent and practical implications of such a law, since a freelancer working from home maybe only wants to be contacted by email, (mobile) phone and P.O. box. And honestly I think that's a legit claim. However since I'm neither of those (jurist/lawyer/judge), don't take my 0.02EUR for any legal advice.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 09:44:08 pm
content: Quote from: hans on May 06, 2023, 07:43:59 pmIn Germany, we have seen some waves of "cease & desist" letters from seedy lawyers, mainly when the legislation was newer and less well-known. They send form letters to all kinds of companies who do not fully comply, claiming to represent a competitor. Targeted companies need to sign a declaration that they will play by the rules going forward, and have to pay a few 100 € to the attorney for their "services".QuoteLogically I would argue that the whole idea is to protect customers by making transparent who they deal with -- for those business models and offerings where the whole "dealing" happens online. I don't see why the full address should be required if the "deal" requires some other form of interaction, like an on-site visit from a craftsman, and the website is just to advertise the services and enable the potential customer to get in touch.But it seems that the applicability of the law is interpreted broadly, at least in Germany. Even freelancers who essentially just publish an "electronic business card" on their website do include their full details. And the chambers of commerce etc. certainly instruct you that it is required no matter what you publish and offer on a web site, as soon as the site is connected to a business.QuoteI don't find that to be true. Just checked the German pages of Apple, Google, and Facebook, and they each give the full address of their main European subsidiary (i.e. the legal entity responsible for their European presence). Found it in the "contact" or "impressum/imprint" sections of the web pages. All three companies have their EU headquarters in Ireland, by the way; I won't go into why that might be the case...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2023, 12:14:44 am
content: It appears that in the EU you have decided that the risks to the consumer are more important than the risks to the business. Which on the surface sounds absolutely correct. But it is decidedly less true for very small businesses. You have thus created a bias towards large business organizations. Your economies are working just fine for now, but it will be interesting to see how this works out in the long run. Here in the US we have found that most innovation (of all types, not just technical) occurs in small businesses and that they are the most potent creators of wealth. But we also are tending to make consumer safety the most important issue. Only time will tell how it works out for all of us.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2023, 02:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 06, 2023, 06:00:15 pmWhere in that legislation does it say you have to use your own address? It says "contact information and address", so however you want to be contacted is what you use. It's very common for companies, and particularly one-man operations, to use their accountant's details, and most accountancy practices expect to provide this service.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2023, 03:41:57 pm
content: QuoteExactly what sevral companys i deal with do.Are they trying to hide something? yes were they store there expensive toys and especially cable.Advertising you've got 100's of meters of copper in your garage tends to attract certain elements of society.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2023, 09:44:16 am
content: Home-run business are (or at least were, a couple of years ago) quite common in Germany. Our company was initially run from my parents house, then from my brothers student apartment.In all these years, hundreds of thousands of orders later, there have only been a handful of customers ringing at our business address (now dedicated office/building) without arranging a pickup in advance.That has never been a problem, ever. Addresses were publically visible on our web site and print ads, all the time.Personally, I would never order from someone who does not show his business address and contact detail. (At least in Germany, that is a pretty certain hint at fraudulent operations.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 05:48:12 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on May 08, 2023, 09:44:16 amI don't even understand this way of thinking. The address will be registered with the government, if something happens they can be located. There is no legitimate reason for you to need the physical address if it is a business that does not accept walk-in customers. Even if they give you an address you're not going to know if that's actually their address unless you go there and find out. I could list the address of any number of nondescript business parks, how are you going to know that's the real address? A listed address does nothing to tell you that the business isn't fraudulent.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 06:01:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 16, 2023, 05:48:12 pmOne of the first things that the police talk about when you are looking at a website with the potential to buy from it. It comes about every year on the haunted fish tank at xmas time as the scammers try to sell that item that is hard to get gold of.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 06:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on May 16, 2023, 06:01:07 pmIf it's some random business selling impossible to get fad items that has red flags all over it, I'm thinking of the sort of stuff I've bought from small businesses, obscure test equipment or kit devices, automotive accessories, injector cleaning, obscure tools, the sort of stuff that is often sold by one-man operations. I always pay by credit card for that sort of thing anyway so I'm not worried about getting scammed, if I get ripped off I can just have the charge reversed, no need to even get the police involved.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 10:10:45 am
content: I have had a one man company for over 10 years now and have never made any effort to hide my address.Never had even a single sales person or customer show up on my doorstep. E-mails, yes. Personal visits? NO. It might be nice to have a salesman call and buy me lunch someday.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 10:18:21 am
content: In a previous life I had some group take a dislike to a potential product and do the usual doxing of me. Showed my address on their forum and threatened to turn up (amongst other things, like deliberately injuring themselves with the product to claim damages from me). Don't know if they did turn up because it was my accountants office address and, once you're there, pretty obvious it wasn't what they might be expecting

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 01:47:28 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 06, 2023, 12:45:19 pmYup. The EU has wonderful legislation on paper ... or I guess these days it would be on the Internet. In Spain this wonderful legislation is very often observed in the breach. Legislation which is not enforced is worse than no legislation.Some fly-by-night guy in his kitchen wants me to send him money but does not want me to know where I am sending my money. I have no problem buying from eBay not knowing where Mr ebay lives or buying from Amazon not knowing where Mr Amazon resides but I'll be darned if I'm going to send my money to some website where I have no redress if things do not go well. I would much rather pass on a too-good-to-be-true opportunity than take the risk.Consumers in Spain, which is nominally part of the EU, are totally unprotected. It is the law of the jungle and not the law of the EU.