Oscilloscope training - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 01:32:24 am
content: I'm a retired software dev who has worked on embedded systems and GUI's for hardware boards. I've been watching lots of videos over the last few months and am ready to jump into a new hobby. I've got most of what I need, but have been on the hunt for a shiny new scope, probably a Siglent SDS2104X Plus.I've used scopes for decades, but only to the extent necessary to get my part of the job done. Now I'm on the verge of buying a new toy and I want to learn everything about using a scope with its class of features.I was hoping to find a training board, but what I've found is either:Hardware-specific (Rigol's DS-DS6000 looks great but plugs directly into the scope's USB port and apparently interoperates with the scope)Without curriculumSo basic as to be useless for my purposesSuggestions, please?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 01:54:14 am
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 01:32:24 amHello and welcome to the forum.I think you meant the DK-DS6000 board, but I wonder since you already seem to be familiar with scopes, perhaps get a cheap arbitrary waveform generator and use that to generate interesting signals to experiment with? Look on Ebay for those.Others will probably have better suggestions.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 02:37:07 am
content: An oscilloscope is such a basic instrument that you don't need training except with special functions that may be peculiar to your model. Since you apparently don't have a specific application in mind for it, get an inexpensive scope and, as mentioned above, play with it. An analog unit is best, as the functions aren't obscured by the peculiarities of an individual unit.I grew up with these things. First, I had none and wished I did. Then I got a compromise unit at a company surplus sale. Its limitations were many and very annoying. Later I got a better unit and continued to upgrade, always used gear. In fact, I have owned perhaps 25 units and didn't buy any of them new. I now own several but the one I use most is an analog Tektronix that is decades old, 100 MHz. I have a digital, an HP that has amazing bandwidth but I don't use that one as much.There is no easy answer to your query; perhaps you have a purpose or perhaps you think it's fun. No matter what, it's your decision. If you get one, chances are you will want a different one before long. Asking for advice won't give you the desired answer, as there are too many personal factors involved.Tell us what you want to accomplish and perhaps one of our suggestions will stand out as right for you.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 02:56:06 am
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 01:32:24 amWelcome to the forum.I can comfortably state this will test your ability to use a DSO and particularly your ability to drive a DSO's most powerful feature, it's trigger suite.https://siglentna.com/product/stb-3-oscilloscope-demo-training-board/After a while the triggering capabilities of a DSO become ingrained in your psyche so getting rock solid triggering becomes comparatively simple once you understand its power.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 04:24:58 am
content: A bit pricey at $200 I think.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:02:49 am
content: Quote from: bob91343 on December 06, 2020, 04:24:58 amDepends on how much valueyouplace on knowing how to use a DSO properly.Sure for a $500 DSO it's nearly 1/2 the price however for the OP and his wish to get a SDS2104X Plus it becomes a lesser portion and in reality only 1/2 the cost of a decent differential probe or similar cost to two 100x probes.Here's a few screenshots showingjust oneof its many waveforms, an infrequent falling edge glitch:Colored grading clearly shows it's there but triggering on it is another matter with most DSO's that don't have a Zone trigger like SDS2104X Plus has.Once the trigger and Search has been set correctly you can see how infrequent it is via the Search flags.The above image captured and zoomed in upon:These were all part of the Search feature demonstration/exercise for SDS1104X-E.Full exercise here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:33:24 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 06, 2020, 01:54:14 amThanks for your quick response, and I did indeed mean the DK-DS6000.I've actually got an AWG I could use for that purpose. Another option is Tek's Arduino-based (and free providing you've got an Uno) course. But I was hoping for something more directed, with a classroom-like curriculum that I could work my way through.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:02:24 am
content: Quote from: bob91343 on December 06, 2020, 02:37:07 amThanks for your quick response. It's a basic instrument as I used it for my work, but I expect I could learn a lot more even about its most basic operations.Quote from: bob91343 on December 06, 2020, 02:37:07 amThis is the 'different one' and it will be my 4th or 5th starting with a kit I built when I was a kid in the late 60's :-).I've spent a lot of time considering what's available, starting with the spreadsheets into which some angel (or angles) here on EEVBLOG have put much effort. I don't expect anyone to make that decision for me.Quote from: bob91343 on December 06, 2020, 02:37:07 amWhat I want to accomplish is to learn to use my new toy to its fullest, in every regard, for no reason other than the pure joy of learning something in which I've taken a renewed interest. I'm looking for the best way to get there.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:12:32 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 02:56:06 amThanks for your quick reply. I saw this board and really like that it covers the LA as well as the scope, and the screen pix are nice, but...it doesn't have a curriculum, just those pix of a stable trigger. I may pick up this board if I can find a used one just for the triggering exercises but I'm hoping for something more comprehensive.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:14:10 am
content: Quote from: bob91343 on December 06, 2020, 04:24:58 amI'm good with the price if it takes me where I want to go.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:24:41 am
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 06:12:32 amYes....because it's used with a # of DSO ranges and while they have many of the same features like X and X-E, X Plus is a different DSO to drive as are the older CML+ and DL+ models.This training board can be used with all the above series of DSO's however not all have the features to use the training board to its fullest.To have a manual that properly covers use in X/X-E, **L+ and X Plus would require 3 books.The pix show a properly triggered waveform and the challenge is to learn how to achieve it.Some say we learn best by actually doing, not reading.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:25:58 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 05:02:49 amI'm happy to pay for the board if I can learn with it.Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 05:02:49 amI downloaded the manual for the STB3 board but found nothing like what you linked to. This would make the board far move useful than the 28 page manual I found.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:44:54 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 06:24:41 amI get that (now), and will take another look. But I'm still in the market for some sort of training...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:37:59 am
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 06:25:58 amYes, that is because the STB-3 was produced before Siglent made DSO's with a Search feature therefore I selected the STB-3 Slope waveform as it was appropriate to show trigger setting of how to capture it and demonstrate the Search feature that was quite new for us at that time.That Glitch/Slope waveform is on P11 Fig21.IMO the STB-3 manual needs fully rewriting as it contains some Chinglish and screenshots were done with early model DSO's that didn't have the features we do today.But hey, if you get a STB3 a few of us here that have them can guide you to get your scope settings right and to understand why you need them. Martin72 bought one and we discussed starting a dedicated thread for it as he was having some difficulty getting stable triggering on some of the STB3 waveforms although as English is not his native language didn't help.Until ~12 years ago I was much like you however not with decades of scope experience just a few years when I embraced DSO's and learnt to use them properly before I got into bed with Siglent although now each time another model is released I need revisit what I know and how a new model works. Luckily I had a ~1 year start on SDS2000X Plus as most of its features and UI are identical to my SDS5054X.SDS2104X Plus is a nice scope BTW and I'm sure you will enjoy its deep capability.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 08:26:07 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 07:37:59 amAh, you created the example yourself (thank you) - I'd thought it was taken from another document. I see you work for a distributor, but from the possessives ('new for us', 'we') above make me wonder if you work for Siglent. At any rate, an active participant such as yourself, 'connected' with Siglent, is another indication that I made the right choice going with the SDS2104X Plus (assuming I can live with the way it handles sample buffering, but I have ask about that in another post here).Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 07:37:59 amA dedicated thread sounds like it would be very helpful, and I appreciate the offer of help. Iwillbe getting one, one way or another. Any chance of picking up a used one?Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 07:37:59 amWell, I've done the same basic and simple things with scopes from time to time over decades but that's not the same as 'decades of experience' -). I'm sure I'm going to love this thing!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 08:48:34 am
content: @casterleI'm essentially a one man band dealing only Siglent and serving the NZ population of just 5M and rather than watch TV I spend a bit of time here.Capture memory management won't impact on you as a new DSO user and you'll quickly grasp the power of zooming in as it's what DSO's do best !Any of us with a STB3 could start such a thread as it's a good teaching tool specifically for the ability to use the trigger suite properly where the penny then drops and you're away.I don't advise you to leap into using the STB3 for anything complex rather get to know the X Plus a little before you do.Anyways, I bid you all nighty night as it's nearly 10pm Sunday and the todo list tomorrow awaits.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 10:05:19 am
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 06:14:10 amI'd take that money and buy a better 'scope. A training board is something you'll use for a day and never use again.(training boards work in a school/classroom situation but are very expensive for a one-off use)Oscilloscopes really aren't that complicated to use. If you have an AWG and an Arduino then you already have everything you need to learn it.How about something more modern? Something with a big screen that doesn't ask you to do most of the user input via a horrible twisty knob:

author: opabob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 10:31:07 am
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 01:32:24 amNOYOU DON'T! NOTEVENCLOSE!!!.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 10:32:08 am
content: Quote from: bob91343 on December 06, 2020, 02:37:07 amWith do all respect, that is very wrong advice to give anyone.There is nothing simple about using scopes , even 20 MHz 2 ch CRT one from 40 years ago, that literally exposes everything it can do with the knobs and bits and bobs on the front and rear panel.For a modern digital scope, a 400 pages manuals violently disagree with you.And there is this confusion that learning to use analog scope is easier that digital. If you want to learn only vertical, horizontal, timebase, show something on the screen, that is equally simple and exactly the same on modern digital scope. It is not more complicated. Complexity lies in things analog scope doesn't even have. If you skip that and only learn those things that analog scope can only do, that is equally easy (or hard) on the modern digital scope.Analog oscilloscope today, is equivalent of moving coil multimeter...I still have 2 of those meters, from my youth. I keep them in a safe place, like photos and other keepsakes from days when I was young, future was bright, and my back didn't hurt every day... And for work I use modern digital meters, because, well, 40 years of progress. I just cannot be arsed to read values from the scale, with my tongue at the right angle, one eye closed, aiming needle at the mirror..... Of course I could do most of my daily measurements with them, (like we did for many years) but why? Progress is good..Using every instrument for measurements has several dimensions, several separate bodies of knowledge, that needs to be learned to ensure successful results (assuming full beginner):- 1. is general knowledge of electronics, physics and whatever you are doing that needs to be measured.That isunderstanding of what are we doing here and what we want to accomplish.- 2. is theory of measurement in general. How do we measure things? Methods, conversions, how to measure one physical quantity by converting to something else we can measure..etc.That isunderstanding how measurement should be organized in theory.- 3. is using the particular category of instrument. Why are frequency meters close cousins of voltmeters, and much different from scopes and spectrum analysers and chart recorders?That isunderstanding measurements in different data domains, and when to use which one- 4. is how you operate particular instrument. There will be differences between CRT and digital scope, and between digital scopes of different brands and classes.This is"How do I enable rise time measurements for CH1" type of knowledge.But fourth one is tricky. This is the one that confuses old, analog CRT types. Why?Because even cheap modern scopes have literally hundreds of measurements old CRT scope didn't and never will have.Which changes points 2. and 3. too...Meaning, you should use it differently than CRT scope and learn new ways..That will make it obvious why old analog scope is same type of nostalgia piece like analog moving coil multimeter.It might have some highly specialized use (X-Y mode on analog scope will be visually superior to any digital one, so if you're into scope art, stick with the analog scopes..).With all that said, to learn something you need to be sure that experiment is controlled. So I can be sure signal is right and I'm doing something wrong.I 'we been using scopes for 35+ years, and few years ago when I got keysight 3000T, i was really happy it had demo signals built in. It really helped me to learn how to use it quickly.Few years ago I used it to teach my son how to use scope and also to verify and compare other scopes (Picoscope, Rigol, Micsig).It is high level equivalent of probe CAL signal, a known reference to make sanity checks of more advanced features...I wish Siglent (or Rigol or whatever) would recognize it, and drop prices to 30-50€ so everybody could get one.. It would also be very nice marketing for them.. They only need to recognize that...Prices for those boards are too high. Keysight gives them for free in the scope, together with 200+ pages of teaching material...At one point Tektronix made a course with Arduino, to teach basics of scopes. That was on the right track.What needs to be done here is that this is one of the things that is a good candidate for open hardware and open courseware...Simple demo board, and curriculum that goes with it.And if a scope manufacturer would do hardware design and release it to enable cheap manufacturing (or DIY) eternal glory and brownie points to them...Best regards,

author: Kibabalu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 11:07:03 am
content: The best way of learning using an oscilloscope is by using it for as many different measurement tasks as possible.Studying the Instrument itself is just masturbation. Instead you should study its usage. Many people knows the more or less useful 'fancy' functions of their instrument, but they don't know how to use the common resp. basic functions for a given measurement task.E.g. some years ago I found a book '125 experiments with oscilloscopes'. It's a translation from dutch to german, but for sure, you find similar books in other languages. The instrument specific topics you will learn during the experiments automatically.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 11:52:55 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 10:32:08 amThey're aimed at places where a single board will be used by a lot of people.Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 10:32:08 amKeysight 'scopes aren't cheap.Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 10:32:08 amAn Arduino with a few resistors on its pins and a suitable program could easily generate all those runt pulses and other stuff.I dunno if such a program exists.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 12:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 10:32:08 amThe underlying concepts are very simple: It's like an electronic chart recorder.The difficult parts are things like understanding what "bandwidth" means when you'renotlooking at sine waves (for example).I don't think a training board will teach you that.

author: Kibabalu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 12:36:02 pm
content: It's a big difference between learning something explicitly or implicitly. The first one is often quite simple, the second one very difficult resp. time consuming.Let's have a look on chess: Learning it is quite simple, it takes not more than a couple of hours to learn the explicit rules. But learning to play, resp. learning what the rules imply, takes more than a lifetime.I give some courses and in one of them teaching the basic usage of oscilloscopes is an important part. I'm talking about the instrument itself not more than 30 minutes. The remaining time I usually fill up with as many experiments as possible. That's my didactic approach and it works quite well.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 01:09:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2020, 10:05:19 amTypical "the less you know the simpler everything is" utterance.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 06, 2020, 01:09:01 pmOh, come on. You know what I mean.Basic operation of the knobs (ie. what you'll learn from a training board) is NOT difficult/complicated.Using an oscilloscope at (eg.) audio frequencies is NOT difficult/complicated.Difficult/complicated starts to happen when you're at the outer limits of bandwidth and things like your probing technique come into play. ie. When you really need to start interpreting what's on screen instead of being able to accept it at face value.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2020, 12:18:29 pmBoard doesn't teach you anything. Curriculum materials do.But in order to have a nice didactic approach you have to go through steps.It is like Kibabalu says, simple introduction is quick and easy.You need to progress with little experiments, for each point you try to illustrate.And for that you need, for each experiment, some example circuit or signal.Lot of stuff can be made with Arduino UNO: UART, SPI, I2C protocols, PWM, analog signal with filtering or R-2R DAC. With few outside gates all kinds of glitches could be made too..A shield could be made.As for price, Siglent and Rigol demo boards do sure cost like they outsourced it to Keysight...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2020, 03:12:32 pmYou ARE oversimplifying.Making scope show SOMETHING on the screen and learning which buttons move and resize shapes on the screen vertically and horizontally takes an hour. In one afternoon you will already start to be fluent in that.Makingaccuratemeasurements, and using scope to full extent will take months..From probing technique to proper use of FFT..Decoding for each protocol also takes time to understand well..Modern scopes are analysis machines, even the cheap one. There is huge difference between knowing "XYZ" exists and where in the menu it is, and learning to use that feature in your workflow to do actual work in most efficient way. The difference between facts and knowledge..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 03:37:50 pm
content: What 2N3055 says...I'd like to add that thinking an analog oscilloscope and digital oscilloscope are the same thing is a big mistake. They may look the same but under the hood these are completely different instruments. With a DSO you always need to be aware that the signals are sampled so undersampling / aliasing will occur at some point (peak-detect mode helps to mitigate sampling effects though).Probably the biggest challenge is to trust what is on screen is the actual signal. A good start is to also buy a function generator with a well defined output level as a sanity check for various signal levels and shapes. If you probe a signal in a circuit and then probe a similar signal from a function generator you can be pretty sure that A) the circuit has that signal present and B) the oscilloscope is showing the signal properly.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 04:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 03:28:43 pmSeems like we agree.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 05:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 08:48:34 amSounds like you've found a great gig in one of the most beautiful (and well run) places on earth!Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 08:48:34 amThat's the thing - I'm not new to DSO's. Back in the early 90's I had a small company with a couple of EE's. I bought a loaded TDS-544A directly from Tek which I used for quite some time (in my limited fashion - it was for the real engineers). I've got an old LeCroy 7200A (the 60+ pound beast from the 90's) tucked under a bench with what I think is a dead PS. When the PS died I bought a cheap Owon SDS7102V which isn't great but did what I needed at the time (I've only needed it a few times and have barely used it).At any rate, Iamconcerned about the way Siglent handles its buffering. It seems limiting to me that I can't turn it off (I have to assume the feature can't simply be turned off due to the scope's architecture, otherwise it would already be an option).I do see it as a valuable feature (although I don't understand why you have history and sequence mode); as I recall the Tek had something similar. But I don't want this feature to become a prison - I recall times when I was able to simply zoom/scroll outside the visible data to see something of interest. I don't want to lose the ability to do that with ease.That said, I'm not sure that Ican'tdo exactly what I was used to doing in some other way. I'm happy to change my methods as long as I can do what I want to do easily. My concern was sparked by one of Dave's videos in which he pointed out this issue. Further, I've seen people say they strongly dislike this approach (and vise-versa, of course).Given that I haven't been able to find a 2nd choice I like nearly as well as this Siglent, I hope you'll tell me I can get the long buffers I want (and how to do it) so I can start the purchase process.Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 08:48:34 amI agree 100%. Given the breadth and depth of the scope's feature set I've got lots of fun ahead of me. But I like to buy what I need at one time so I have it handy when I'm ready.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:19:21 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2020, 10:05:19 amGiven the large number of signals the STB3 produces, I'll use it for far more than a day. But I take your point, and hope to find a used one for that reason.Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2020, 10:05:19 amThat's a big attraction of the SDS2000X Plus scopes - a large, responsive touch UI that appears to be well thought out and very usable.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: opabob on December 06, 2020, 10:31:07 amGiven my experience getting started in 3D printing, I should know better!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 05:57:36 pmIt is a genuine issue, an annoyance that could be rectified by changing an option, but not a deal-killer IMO. You simply have to slow down your timebase to capture the number of samples you want on one screens worth, then zoom in. And you have to remember to do that beforehand, so if you are looking at hard-to-capture rare events and you get one on a normal screen, you can't scroll outside the screen--you have to slow down the timebase and figure out how to capture another event. Fortunately, with all of the advanced triggering available on these DSOs, that is usually doable with some effort.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 10:32:08 amVery well said, and exactly what I hope to explore and learn with regards to DSO's. While I'm not exactly a beginner, I am just that with respect to much that 'scopes can do.Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 10:32:08 amExactly!

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:50:38 pm
content: Quote from: Kibabalu on December 06, 2020, 11:07:03 amThanks, that book sounds like it will be very helpful. I'll see if I can find something similar.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 06:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 05:57:36 pmIf you are used to the Tektronix' way of how they manage the memory (being able to scroll left/right and zoom out) then you'll start pulling your hair quickly when using the Siglent. Been there, done that, never ever again! Siglent has come a long way the last couple of years but the way they limit the record length to what is needed to fill the screen is a hard fail for me. It makes using the oscilloscope way too tedious. Now Tautech will disagree from his salesman perspective (to him everything is a nail because he only sells hammers) but unlike him I make a living by using oscilloscopes.If you fancy a nice touch screen oscilloscope then maybe the R&S RTB2004 or even the RTM3004 can be good choices. But you'd need to increase your budget. At the lower end of the spectrum there are the MicSig TO1000 series tablet oscilloscopes which work very well for being both bench and portable oscilloscopes.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:00:42 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 06:34:17 pmThanks for the insight. I take it that slowing down the timebase doesn't affect the sampling rate?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 07:00:42 pmNo, the sampling rate will stay the same up to a certain limit. For example, on the 1104X-E, there are 14 divisions and 14Mpts of memory (that's not a coincidence!) so that is 1Mpt/div. You can slow the timebase down to 1ms/div for a total capture of 14ms @ 1GS/s = 14Mpts. If you slow down to 2ms/div or more, the sample rate will start to drop. At 1Mpt/div, you can zoom out a million times to the maximum sweep rate of the scope, 1ns/div, and see things just as clearly as if you were looking at it at that speed in the first place. Of course, you will have one million screens to scroll through.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:24:01 pm
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 07:00:42 pmIf you have enough sample memory, it won't..That is always the same, with both LeCroy and with Tektronix memory management.Ipersonallyfind LeCroy, Siglent, Picoscope way (it samples only memory that you set up with timebase)morelogical and natural.Fixing memory to always sample thousands of times more (and longer) of samples than what I'm looking for on purpose, just because I might want to look at something later feels weird to me. It also really kills refresh rate, and by that, I don't mean marketing wankery is 50000 worse than 80000. You get 5-10 triggers per second instead of some thousands. It makes scope unresponsive and weird.There are some special cases where it can be useful, Nico did give some examples of how he uses scopes that take advantage of fixed memory approach, but those are corner cases, and I don't use scope that way. I achieve same thing differently. To each it's own.If I want to capture 100 ms of data while looking at 10 ns edge, I simply set my Picoscope (same memory management strategy as Siglent and LeCroy)to 10 ms/div (100ms total), and keep zoomed in the area I want to look at real time. Simple as that. And I get deterministic results, every time.You can get same result with different instruments, just have to workwiththe instrument andnot againstit.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 07:24:01 pmFWIW, when want to use memory that way (in one chunk) it is almost always in the single shot mode and often with multiple channels. What I want for behavior is that the scope continuously records to memory (it can have blind time, but when it is recording I want it to lay down all 14Mpts at once in a row) until I press the SINGLE button, whereupon it keeps on recording until a trigger event, then overwrites 7Mpts after that. Then when press SINGLE again, it erases all of the memory and starts recording again (or just overwrites) until I press SINGLE again, and so forth.The scopeactually does all thisin ZOOM mode, but if you have multiple channels, that 7" 'large' screen gets pretty cluttered. I often only need a few screens in either direction and having a big bar of noise using up the upper half of my screen doesn't do me any good.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:44:13 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 07:24:01 pmBecause you don't like to use an oscilloscope this way doesn't mean you can brush it off as a corner case. Being able to zoom out is a huge time saver for me while debugging microcontroller firmware / circuits. Far less twiddling with knobs / settings. Even the OP states that he wants to use an oscilloscope this way! And on almost every oscilloscope out there you can set the memory length to a fixed length of automatic; there is no need to compromise at all.QuoteNo, you need to use instruments that work for you, not against you. Otherwise you keep contorting yourself into making-do solutions.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 07:51:30 pm
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 07:00:42 pmIt can but as bdunham7 points out only when you get below certain timebase settings. His example of SDS1104X-E is kinda relevant however X Pus has more that 10x the memory depth.As the sampling rate and memory depth in use is always visible on Siglent DSO's the user can make properly informed decisions to get the best setting for each need.If/when there could be a need to zoom outthe Zoom is available where we can work entirely in the zoomed window yet have all the unzoomed window forzooming out and depending on primary timebase settings that could be 200 Mpts of capture depth where X Plus is best in its class.With the X Plus 10" display the Zoom allows for a 75/25 Zoom split window ratio that make for a far better Zoom experience that a 50/50 split.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 08:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 06, 2020, 07:44:13 pmAnd there's the issue--the capability is clearly there, it just needs to be implemented in a one-step, non-workaround way.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 08:21:13 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 07:51:30 pmHow about an exclusive mode, like there is for FFT? How hard could that be--just hide the useless noise bar. That would pretty much solve the issue for the occasional user like me, although the setup would be more steps than necessary (select slow timebase and memory depth, select zoom, select zoom timebase, select the zoom exclusive mode)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 08:21:28 pm
content: @nctnicowith do all respectit iscorner case. It took you 6 months to explain it to the people, and then large discussion ensued. As I agreed, I respect you like to use it that way, and in ONE specific scenario you explained I agreed that 100% it is useful. For general scope use it's completely irrelevant.You also in the end confirmed that all other uses for that are not because it is necessary, but because of your personal preferencenot to use zoom mode.So if there is a person that is limiting itself with choice of instruments it is you. I can make do with both. I'm more versatile than that. I would not make choice of scope based on this memory strategy either way. They are both fine. Just use them appropriately. That is not feature that is important in choice of instrument.Once you overcome impulse "my way is best and only way to do this" (we all suffer form that!!) and learn to do work with what you have, in different ways, you don't just "make do". You end up with skill to be able to measure all kinds of stuff nobody else can, with realistic amounts of money..Stay safe,

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 08:59:59 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 08:21:13 pmThe 'useless noise bar' as you put it is a valuable record of signals either side of the trigger point and the H Pos marker of the zoomed window shows just where we are within this record.In most use cases Zoom is not required especially for repetitive waveforms however for a data stream or such where we might trigger an a particular bit or event knowing we need to inspect events leading up to the trigger event or events that occur from a event you have triggered on. Here with LeCroy, Pico and Siglent we have the full memory available for examination not just some small sample that other brands may offer so we can inspect a larger waveform record.Some cannot/will not grasp there are other ways a DSO can work other than what they are accustomed to which in my view seems a contradiction to the ongoing learning we must continually do in electronics.As 2N3055 says, embrace the different strategies and make each work for you.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 09:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 08:21:28 pmbdunham7 put it very clearly: you don't need a bar of noise on the screen. It eats away screen realestate, probably slows down the scope extra because more traces need to be drawn and distracts from what you are measuring. As I wrote before: in these situations I have a bunch of decoders open, analog traces and maybe some digital traces. I want all the screen real estate available to visible signals; having a useless zoom window active is just crap and counter productive. I don't get why you keep trying to argue to use a hammer to drive in a screw as a make-do solution. If you want to work with make-do solutions then that is fine but don't push them onto others. That is not respectfull at all; many people agree with me that 'zooming out' is a feature they expect from a decent DSO. The fact the OP is appearantly surprised that the Siglent scopes have a limitation in their memory management underlines that once again.Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 08:59:59 pmTry to use some different oscilloscopes for a change and you'll see that they will have a tiny indicator at the top which shows you which part of the record is visible on screen. Even my good old Tektronix TDS510 had that:and the Tektronix 2230 as well:

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 10:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 06, 2020, 09:57:40 pmThat is not "bar of noise", that is myopic, close minded way to call something that is your table of contents, index, a map to your whole capture, in order not to get lost where your 100 ns come from, from a 100ms of capture, with zoom factor of 1 Million... That is invaluable information "where I am"... As for size, I was first that said that it should be made as small as possible, not take too much of the screen space.. Data resampling is trivial and already provided.EDIT: Since you edited your post in meantime, I wish to say that I agree that Tektronix zoom indicator in a fashion of scroll bar should be at least option for zoom window. This is I agree with you completely. If they (all of them) would make zoom position window in this fashiion (or maybe just a bit larger that would also be ok) I would keep my scope pretty much always in that position, with occasional larger if need be. That should also be user configurable...Those many people that agreed with you were actually very few. To add more so, I agreed with you, that in that particular moment when you are forcing scope to the edge of what you can cram on the screen, that might give you a bit of advantage in real estate. Nothing else..Doing what you explained is definitely not mainstream use, and pretty much very corner case not many people will repeat. I said before, for that situations, people buy Picoscopes, so I can divide my layout across 2x 24" monitors, and have unlimited zoom windows, unlimited FFT windows, unlimited views, each with its own decoders and decoded tables... the lot....All with "very limited memory management" you wouldn't buy..I find it appropriate to "warn" people to difference in memory management, between, lest call it, "Lecroy way" and "Tektronix way" (I chose those because they are historically significant representatives of said thinking). There is also Keysight way (that is mixed approach and also varies between models), but Keysight owners seem to not care about these details, and are generally happy with how their scopes serves their purpose well..But bombastic declarations of "never would buy because memory management" are your emotional reaction, not facts. Sorry for being blunt.And to finish with clarification: If I had to chose, I think that Lecroy type always running history buffers (which R&S thinks are great because they also have it) are much more useful feature than always full memory captures.But I voted yes to that Siglent should add this memory strategy if it is possible. Because I believe in users choice. And similar to R&S, which let you choose: Nico can have full memory, I can have history buffers. Win-win. Good for Siglent and customers.I 'll leave it to others to decide for themselves which is the limited thinking and who is trying very hard to discredit all other ways of doing things...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 11:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 10:45:01 pmSorry, but you keep playing on the person and not the ball. There is no emotional reaction here. Just facts. And for the record: I never said history buffers are bad. I just want an instrument which gives me full freedom to configure it in the most productive way. For a general purpose oscilloscope the Siglent and Lecroy way are just not 'it'. Fact.The only emotion I have is that I'm sad that Siglent has come such a long way the past couple of years and drops the ball on something extremely simple and obvious.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2020, 11:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: casterle on December 06, 2020, 06:19:21 pmA year or two from now and everybody will wonder how they ever put up with the user interface on current DSOs.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 09:18:56 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 06, 2020, 06:53:41 pmYou're not the first to express this view, and my reason for bringing this up pre-purchase.Quote from: nctnico on December 06, 2020, 06:53:41 pmI do, I do, I do!Quote from: nctnico on December 06, 2020, 06:53:41 pmI can't, I can't, I can't!I started out looking for an upgrade to my sad Owon SDS7102V and a 16 channel LA w/analog support. Seeing what's available I've nearly doubled my budget to get the SDS2104X+. Remember, I still need to chuck out money for the LA pod and I want a couple of serviceable 300 MHz 1/10x probes that work with autosense. And that Siglent training board looks like a must-buy.I've looked at used Tek, HP/Agilent/Keysight (hadn't heard ofthema couple weeks ago), R&S, Rigol and more. I ran across an old TDS744A that nearly made me check the price before sanity prevailed.I think I'm going to bite the bullet and learn to use the memory system as intended. After all, lots of people prefer the 'Siglent way' and this 'scope is just too much bang for the buck to pass up.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 09:32:25 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 07:42:29 pmThat's what I was hoping to hear.Quote from: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 07:42:29 pmThat's a benefit I hadn't considered, and an important one at that.Quote from: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 07:42:29 pmAnd I will be doing exactly; the more I consider other scopes in my price range, the more I want to make nice with this new (to me) approach.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 10:21:52 am
content: Quote from: casterle on December 07, 2020, 09:18:56 amA Micsig is only about $40 more than a Siglent.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 11:54:05 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 07, 2020, 10:21:52 amSiglent can display simultaneously always full zoomed out in runtime and together with zoomed in whatsomeother scopes only show in runtime. So with Siglent, no need stop and after then zoom out. Never hidden part of acquisition, never this visual stupid blind time what trace overlap give and then some say it is somehow good when these hide big part of acquisition.Why want less if can get more with less. But yes, this is too complex to some peoples so these can buy stop first and then zoom out scopes and they all are happy.But this topic was about training so I will not continue this OT.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 07:39:40 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 08:59:59 pmI think, for me at least, this is the way forward. Old dog, new trick!

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 07:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 06, 2020, 10:45:01 pmI have to think it's not possible with their architecture, otherwise they would have done it. I'd be disinclined to buy from them if I thought they were forcing everyone to 'work their way' for any other reason.

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 07:59:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 07, 2020, 10:21:52 amAs far as I can see they don't have a logic analyzer...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 08:05:21 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on December 07, 2020, 11:54:05 amI'm not sure what you are referring to, the ability to do what Siglent does here has been around since the days of analog scopes with a 'B' sweep (obviously without the pre-trigger signal being available). If the signal were continuous, there would be no problem 'zooming out' because as you slow the sweep down everything is refreshed with the next trigger. For me, this issue has only cropped up with single-shot captures--so 'stop and zoom out' is exactly the feature that is needed.For as little as I need this capability, I'd be willing to settle for a zoom-exclusive mode that simply hides what I referred to as the bar of noise. Someone who needs it more often may not be as willing to put up with the extra steps needed for setup and they may want an explicit memory management default selection that does what they need.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 08:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: casterle on December 07, 2020, 07:59:41 pmDon't worry about Fungus, who knows what he's been smoking.He can't even compare apples with apples instead a crab apple with an apple.Somewhere he totally missed you were looking at the SDS2104X Plus.....and it's totally in another class of equipment.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 09:49:06 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 07, 2020, 08:07:18 pmSo what was all that about not having a budget for a touch-screen device?

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 09:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: Kibabalu on December 06, 2020, 11:07:03 amI couldn't find the book you mentioned, but the keyword 'experiments' led me to do some searching for 'labs' and 'experiments' on .EDU sites. I've found what I was looking for, and at no charge. Thank you again!

author: casterle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2020, 09:56:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 07, 2020, 09:49:06 pmI mentioned that I was looking at the SDS2000X Plus series. But this thread has gotten so far off subject (my fault) that it's not surprising this tidbit was lost along the way.

author: Kibabalu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2020, 03:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: casterle on December 07, 2020, 09:49:35 pmYou're welcome!The german title is 'A. C. J. Beerens · A. W. N. Kerkhofs: 125 Versuche mit dem Oszilloskop'. The book is translated from dutch, thus there should be also at least a dutch version available.

author: FranciscogGomez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2022, 09:19:43 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 06, 2020, 05:02:49 amHi TautechI went through your post and I'm corious to know about the Zone trigger on the SDS2104X PlusQuoteI can't see this feature in the SDS2000X Plus datasheet.or Could you tell us if there is another way to activate this feature on these series?Regards

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2022, 09:40:53 am
content: SDS2000X Plus, SDS5000X and SDS6000A all have 2 Zone triggers that you activate from within the Trigger menu.They are dragged around the display to where they're needed and sized to suit needs with the touch display or with a mouse.So in the screenshots above and especially in the color trace display we would place one inside the positive going square wave so it interacts with only the glitch and set it to a falling edge.....bang! Rock solid trigger.Speed of implementation and use are its benefits.

author: FranciscogGomez
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2022, 10:22:37 am
content: Hi Tautech,Thanks for your replay.It has 2 zone triggers, indeed; it is specified in the datasheet!