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Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 03:51:08 pm
content: On reflection this is obviously one of those 'ask the guy at number 5 who tinkers with the electrical stuff' problems but you might as well hear all of the tale.This afternoon our doorbell rang and I opened the door to find a young boy standing there with his mother and a handful of electrical items screwed to a piece of wood. She apologized for bothering me then explained that her son was interested in electrical experiments and he had a puzzle that her husband could not explain. I let both of them in and took them upstairs to my workshop where mother was impressed and her son grew starry eyed.Young Tobias had been experimenting with 'free energy' and in an effort to achieve this he had connected two batteries together, positive to negative and negative to positive. The idea was that as one battery ran down the other would charge it up (or vice versa) and he could not understand why both batteries just got hot and then ran down. "Would a diode in series with each battery make a difference" he asked? That was when I grew curious, how old was Tobias?He has his seventh birthday next weekSo, my question to you all is this. I am all in favor of 'catching them while they are young' but I have no experience with children and no experience with teaching electronics to someone at such a young age. How do I get young Tobias started on his adventure?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 04:01:40 pm
content: radio shack 70 in one box !well , radio shack is dead now but those boxes are still made by lots of companies :http://www.elenco.com/

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 04:08:20 pm
content: Send him to Man Of Stone or Dave Wing, they'll show the young'un how to "split the positive" and harness all that vacuum energy!

author: PeterFW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 05:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on February 24, 2015, 03:51:08 pmWell... for one, this will test you if you yourself are fully grasping the concepts you are trying to teachKeep it simple, use analogies and start with the very basic stuff.I know many people do not like it but if you start to think about electricity as water it helps tremendously to explain it. Further on you will run into problems with that analogy but at first it will help.Maybe one of these electronics for kids thingys could be something:http://www.amazon.de/Elektronik-Baukasten-Experimentier-Elektro-Experimente/dp/B001V2DSH8I had one of the more advanced Kosmos sets as a kid, but i had a hard time figuring it out for myself.If there is someone at hand to explain the stuff, that will help alot.Im working with kids on and off for >15 years in my spare time but mostly outdoorsy stuff, i do not have that much experience with teaching electronics

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 07:09:03 pm
content: You didn't just shoot him down, seriously good job there. Give him some guidance, some advice on how to approach the problem, and let him work it out himself. Maybe point out why you don't think his ideas would work but let him do the thinking and working stuff out, no matter how tempting it could get to just "take over" on some things. He's that young just been told "no you're just not getting it" could be a serious hit to his ego, but thinking he's worked it out "totally on his own" would not only boost his confidence but teach him the value in failing.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 07:15:23 pm
content: Doing stupid things is part of the learning process, especially at that age. I once connected a huge speaker to a crystal radio and expected very loud music because the speaker was much larger than my piezo headphones.Explain to him with a simple example that is appropriate to his edge.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 07:19:38 pm
content: My young pupil left about two hours ago and I think that everyone was happy. His initial problem in limitless energy was explained by redrawing the circuit diagram to show two cells in series and then a direct short across them, which was then demonstrated using a meter on the amps range at which point I think he understood.The electricity as water analogy is quite familiar and I have used it in the past to explain the way a transistor works, capacitors and inductors may be a little more difficult but give me some time to think about that one.The reason for my initial post was surprise. I did not expect to find a seven year old who a) experimented like that and b) knew what a semiconductor diode was. He's now gone away with a carrier bag full of stuff to pull apart and experiment with and he will be coming back on Monday.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 07:27:34 pm
content: Great! gently nudge him in the direction of ham radioNo language barrier between you and those Darmschdäddäs?

author: AndreasF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 10:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on February 24, 2015, 07:27:34 pmThat's gonna get some head scratches.Good job with your youngpadawanpupil. Sounds like the force strong in this one! ;-)

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2015, 02:03:56 am
content: Are you in Darmstadt?I spent a couple of weeks (I was working with Philips Video Systems) visiting their Greisheim facility back around 2000.Really nice place - Germany in general - Still like a picture book when flying in over the countryside near Frankfurt!

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 08:47:20 am
content: I gave my nephew a nudge into programming at a similar age by sending him a python program I wrote that would display a secret message when it was run. I didn't tell him anything. Just sent it to him and asked if he could figure out what it did. As I recall, some of the variable's were given intriguing names. I figured he's probably start googling stuff, figure out that it was python, and then go from there. He decoded the secret message, which suggested he try to figure out how to modify the program to send me a reply and had an answer back to me in no time.So, that's my tip: figure out what is already intriguing, and then use that to draw him in. Given him a chance to be as smart or smarter than some grownups, about something. Sounds like he likes the idea of free energy. As I recall, when I was about that age, I liked the idea of anything "free." I wasn't much younger when I thought that change that my mother got back at the grocery store was "free."Giving him stuff to take apart and maybe even fix was a great idea. One man's trash is a boy's treasure...That, and being available for him to talk through things with.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 10:13:49 am
content: Yes, I live in Darmstadt, not the most exciting city in Germany but I have two electronic component shops within walking distance plus a rather large test & measurement store. The carrier bag full of stuff that my young pupil took away was done through experience, at his age I was taking apart modules purchased from the local surplus store using my pocket money and over the road I had old Mr Fraser who built model aircraft and tinkered around with electronics.On Monday we will do resistors and capacitors, not too much maths but lots of experiments.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 10:54:01 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on February 24, 2015, 07:19:38 pmAt age 4 my parents figured I had an interest and for my birthday my mother presented me with a wooden door. Fixed to the wooden door were lamp holders, old mains circuit breakers (BIG switches), battery holders and from memory a 3V sonalert mechanical buzzer. Along with this lot was a pack of batteries and some croc clip leads. I moved on to the radio shack 200in1 for my 6th birthday (along with my miniscope soldering iron). Never too young to start and the best way to foster curiosity is to satisfy it as it appears. I was blessed in that my father was an electrical engineer and by the time he could no longer answer my questions I'd figured out where I could go to seek out the answers on my own (the library!).At my high school we had a wise old electronics teacher. He recognised the lack of facilities for primary students, so from 4th grade (age ~8) he would open up a room once a month after school (and on his own time) and us littleies were allowed to come along with our parents and have our curiosity satisfied.If you had the time and resources, having the young lad and his mother around once every couple of weeks will see him save up his questions to get them all answered in one sitting and he will be one lucky little kid.I have a 10 month old now, and I only hope he has 1/10th the curiosity I did. My biggest fear is that he grows up like my brother, with no interest at all in how stuff works.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 12:10:57 pm
content: Just keep in mind that at that age, and in these times, he may "drift" off into other interests as he grows. In my days, at that age, I could play all daywith a wirewound resistor, a capacitor and a battery ... AND have fun !! :-) They have so much technology now, it's VERY easy for them to get bored.I'd tantalise him with experiments and use that interest to explain why science / physics etc is SOOO important. That as a "scientist" he'd KNOWthe reasons why these ideas were possible or not and that he couldn't easily be duped by scams.I'd also look into makerfares in the area, if possible. I've "lost" a LOT of interested youth in my time, often once they discovered girls :-)I hope the sprogglet does keep his interest, but don't be disillusioned if her chooses another path.

author: gevans
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 06:55:10 pm
content: I'm curious to know how a seven year old has even heard of "free energy", was this parental influence?.I live in Germany and have never met any electronics techs, except engineers, who have even heard of it.Anyway, it was nice to see that no-one jumped on the subject and started shaking it like a terrier.A very mature response from the contributors.

author: DIPLover
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 07:29:42 pm
content: Kids are awesome.They have EXCELLENT, brand new brains (not this old rotting thing that inhabits my cranium), and they have loads of free time.They lack knowledge and experience, the first can be transmitted, the second will require conversion of some of that free time.@ 7, your young pupil hasn't been crushed by public education (and TV) yet, and doesn't know what *should* or *should not* be possible for a youngster. He therefore has no limits.I wish I lived in a city where neighbors bring bright, interested kids to my door for lessons...

author: Ecklar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 08:08:27 pm
content: The kid is seven years old? Get him a basic electronics kit like Radio Shack learning and gift it to him through his mother. In fact, a better idea would be to tell her what learning lab to buy her kid and then drop it. This is a new era we live in with new realities. Be aware of all the variables involved in the situational equation you just posted.

author: DIPLover
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 08:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: Ecklar on February 27, 2015, 08:08:27 pmWhy the paranoia? And how is this different from say, piano lessons?

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 09:16:11 pm
content: "I'm curious to know how a seven year old has even heard of "free energy", was this parental influence?."The story I was told is that he figured out his original idea on his own as a way to "stop the cells going down" and neither of his parents could explain to him where he was going wrong. I have been spotted by a few of the neighbors hauling various pieces of electronic junk home so it seems that I was the first person they thought of. The two ham radio antennas also give things away.Given Tobias' young age I am very aware of the 'variables' that are involved and for now there is no way that I would allow a visit without a parent being present. His 7th birthday is on Tuesday and there is an electronic kit from Conrad already wrapped up and ready to go. I need to be careful though because it seems that family funds are tight (for example there is no computer in the house) and I do not want to cause embarassment.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 09:43:07 pm
content: If they can afford it, I'd recommend his parents (or you?) get him aSnap Circuits set.My 6 and 8 year old boys love it! It's nearly indestructable and as his knowledge grows there are several expansion kits with more components. It's all pretty well documented so easy to help him trouble shoot when his circuits aren't working.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 09:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on February 27, 2015, 09:16:11 pmI don't think it's that unusual, I was pretty young when I drew my "eternal" desk lamp that shines on a solar cell.It just takes a few books on science, some space stuff, and a set of color crayons...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 09:56:39 pm
content: Quote from: gevans on February 27, 2015, 06:55:10 pmEveryone believes in free energy until they become convinced it is not possible. Thermodynamicists spent decades or even centuries doing experiments before they became satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that nature does not give you something for nothing.The basis for believing that energy is not created or destroyed is all experimental. There is no "proof" available. So our young friend was only doing the obvious thing, experimenting to find out, just as his forbears did.