Which scope should I pickup? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: gv260ea
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2019, 09:09:40 pm
content: I'm clueless about which scope to pick thanks to weird pricing in my current location. I have a budget of around 7k.LeCroy WaveRunner 64Xi for around 3.2k(New)LeCroy WaveRunner 104MXi for around 4k(New)Tek MSO4104 for around 8k(Used)Tek DPO4104 for around 6.5k(Used)Keysight MSO9104A for arount 12k(Used) (Over budget but can increase the budget within a month or so)I'll be mostly using them to debug mid-to high speed serial stuff and use it as a daily scope.I have also looked at Rigols offerings but I'm not sure wheter they would compare with these scopes Rigol's scope prices are quite similarly priced to europe. My budget is flexible but I don't want to spend money for anything unnecesary (I'd like to get the most scope for the least amount). Mainly LeCroy's pricing is confusing me. I have worked with Teks and Keysights but never worked with a LeCroy are they any good?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2019, 09:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: gv260ea on March 20, 2019, 09:09:40 pmYou might need to define that a bit more precisely.

author: gv260ea
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2019, 09:42:13 pm
content: Checking Ethernet bus (I work a lot with erhercat), RMII, Maybe some dram lines. SPI some I2C perhaps. By daily use i mean littelery anything unexpected perhaps check if the output of the regulator passes the standarts or for checking the ouput of an h-bridge you get the idea.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2019, 10:22:15 pm
content: I'm missing the R&S RTB2004 and RTM3004 from your list. Both are well worth considering for daily use. The RTM3004 probably suits your needs the best. The value for money of the RTB2004 is less because it lacks a few features and you can buy other oscilloscopes which similar functionality for less.The main problem with (most) Lecroy scopes is that they don't have peak-detect. This can bite you in the rear when using low samplerates and signals with narrow pulses in them. IMHO this makes Lecroy scopes less suitable as daily driver scopes.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2019, 10:29:12 pm
content: At that budget level I would stay away from Rigol and Tektronix. Their offers are subpar when compared to others at that level.LeCroy usually does not have Peak Detect, which is an important missing feature. However, their.built in analysis tools are excellent. Keysight lacks deep memory, which can be a problem if you are inspecting long captures. As Nico mentioned, R&S offers can be interesting, but it is a somewhat new architecture and may still suffer from bugs (I am not following these models closely, thus I may be innacurate).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2019, 10:35:21 pm
content: I have done some extensive testing on the RTM3004. I have not found anything really serious:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185I'll need to revisit this review BTW because a new firmware version has been released. Frequency response analysis has also been added.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2019, 10:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: gv260ea on March 20, 2019, 09:42:13 pmAnother range that might fit your requirements is the SDS5000X with models to 1 GHz.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/

author: Mr Nutts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 07:08:09 am
content: Quote from: gv260ea on March 20, 2019, 09:09:40 pmI have two Lecroy Waveruner LTs and I love them! It takes a while to get used to the vast amount of things they can do but I still find new things that other scopes can’t doAs someone once said Lecroy is the Mercedes of scopesLecroy also invented the digital oscilloscopeWe had Tek at college, MDO3000 and DPO3000/MSO4000. I hated them for their slowness, just enable digital signals and the update rate drops like a rock ;(Your list looks strange, as far as I know the Waveruner 64Xi and 104Mxi are very old and not made for several years. There is a successor called Waveruner 6zi which has a nice pivotable display, and even this one has been out for more than 5 years. So the 64Xi and the 104Mxi can hardly be newThe best scope on your list appears to be the Keysight but $12k is a lot of money when the newer DSOS104A is sometimes available around $14kI have an Agilent Infinum DSO8064A and I really like it. It can’t do everything my Lecroys can do but it’s really nice to use and fast. I’m sure the DSO9104A will be even better LOL!Just check what mainboard is in there. I think that scopes with older mainboards can only run XP and the old firmware and not Win7 with the new firmware.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 12:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: Mr Nutts on March 21, 2019, 07:08:09 amThe 4k is often on sale on Keysight's eBay channel for less, my 2.5GHz 6k was only ~US$14k IIRC. I don't think any of the Keysight's do decoding of Ethernet.To work with Ethernet MDIO on my Keysight I ended up exporting a capture and importing it into Pulseview (Sigrok GUI). For (RGMII) Ethernet data I've mostly just had to care if signals are present or not, in reality a 500MHz 3000T would probably have done me well enough.The only real downside to the InfiniiVision (1k/2k/3k/4k/6k) Keysight's is that the current models (with the exception of the 4-channel 1000x) really are coming towards the end of their life and are due for an upgrade, on one side that means you might have a better chance of discounts, on the other that you shouldn't expect any software updates for them.You might findMike's scope reviewsuseful as he always tests the serial decode more deeply than others.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 01:46:58 pm
content: Quote from: LapTop006 on March 21, 2019, 12:35:40 pmSome keysight scopes do support it:https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2532965-pn-N8825B/10base-t-100base-tx-ethernet-protocol-decoder-for-s-series-oscilloscopes?cc=US&lc=eng

author: Mr Nutts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 01:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: LapTop006 on March 21, 2019, 12:35:40 pmBut DSOX4000 and 6000 are simple scopes (InfiniVision?) with slow processor and tiny memory. My old Lecroy LT574M has 4M memory but I understand on the DSOX this reduces even further?4M is ok but often I just use my Agilent Infinum DSO8064A which has 128M because then sample rate doesn’t drop as fast.Keysight Infinum DSOS is a proper high end scope with powerful processor and lots of memory. Who would pay $14k for a DSOX6000 when you can get an Infinium DSOS for the same money?And Infinum DSOS is 10bit while DSOX is 8bitAnd of course DSOS can also decode Ethernet

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 02:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr Nutts on March 21, 2019, 01:49:54 pmIt depends if you want something usable as a bench scope or not. I'd love an MSOS as a second scope (although if I had the money, probably third after a Tek 5k series, some stuff works better on those, certain Tek probes are better, etc.), but for quick in & out work the InfiniiVision scopes are just so quick & easy to use.Also, at that price a 6k comes with all the software options, vs likely none on the MSOS.

author: Mr Nutts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 03:00:57 pm
content: I can only speak for my Agilent Infinum DSO8064A but as an every-day bench scope it is perfectly fine. If I had to decide for one scope only for my bench then I would happily take the Infiniium as only scope (but I prefer to have more than one scope, still)Had a chance to use a DSOX3104A once, it was nice and very fast and easy to use but it’s memory was just 4M and it lacked many things I enjoy on my Infiniium DSO8064A. I guess both would make good every-day scopes but I know I would miss the Infinum features and the large memory (128M)I would never buy a Tektronix scope. The ones we had at college were awful, and a former EEV forum member which shall not be named has told me that the new MSO5 and 6 are still slow and full of bugs and just as annoying to use as the other models.I also believe there’s a thread disussing the Tektronix TBS2000 which said it was essentially released with half-done software, LOL!If I had to buy a new scope which isn’t Keysight or Lecroy I think I’d rather risk it with Rigol or Siglent before buying a Tektronix

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 03:03:37 pm
content: And I forgot: don't stare blindly at scope bits, they're meaningless. Some manufacturers*cough* Tektronix *cough*sometimes forget to include the frontend performance in that analysis. No point in having a 10 bit ADC if your frontend performance practically limits it to 7 bit anyway due to noise or non-linear behaviour. And honestly, Lecroy scopes have horrible interfaces, many people who advertise them have never sat down with one and tried it out. They're great if you need to look at the odd thing, but I would never want to use one for general purpose debugging or circuit design. We had a few of them at my last workplace, they gathered dust for 364 days a year even though they were arguably the best scopes in terms of specifications. But at the same time the crappy Teks (we're talking early 90s LCD screen ones) and the more recent HPAK ones were in constant use. People only got them off the shelf for two reasons: memory depth and the video output which was compatible with projectors.Instead of staring blindly at ADC bits and sample rate, I recommend listing up features like decoding, memory depth, pattern triggering and segmented sampling. Those are what you're interested in to debug busses, network interfaces and communication hardware. Additionally, don't try to go for a scope that solves all issues, buy a good high bandwidth scope with all the features you need and guard it well, and then also buy a cheaper 100 MHz HPAK or R&S for the general bench work. No reason you can't have the best of both worlds with this type of budget.

author: Mr Nutts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 08:45:22 am
content: Horrible interface on a Lecroy scope LOL!!!Can’t see what’s horrible on my LT574M, it’s not rocket science to operate it if you can read and understand EnglishThe menu is much more logical than on the Tektronix scopes I used (ok the Lecroy does have more menus because it can do much more things)Before I got my Lecroy, I was warned by an unnamed former EEV forum member that people will tell me that Lecroy scopes are difficult to operate but that this is just people BS’ing. I guess he was right about that, I heard it so many times but never got told where the difficult part wasA couple of years ago on DesignCon I played around with some modern Lecroy scopes, they all have touch interface which is very easy to use (even easier than on my Agilent Infinum!). Wished I had the money for one of these beauties LOL!!!Your place of work sounds a lot like my college where we had lots of Tektronix scopes, I’ve also seen one newer Agilent scope and a newer Lecroy, the older tutors always made us use the Tektronix ones because that’s the ones they knew and because Tektronix scopes are the best anyways (yeah, right!). Only one tutor let us use the other scopes, he said his older colleagues are just lazy and I agreeI rather like learning new things, but each to their own I guess@gv260ea you should try to get your hands on the scope you want to buy and try it first to see if you like it. Don’t give too much to hearsay. I did the same before buying my LT264 which was my first scope, I played around with it for half an hour and quickly got on with it, with no manual. And then I bought it.So either I’m a fucking genius or Lecroys are actually easy to operate

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 08:03:53 pm
content: I think most of the hp/tek/lecroy prejudices are just out of date. When things moved to digital, the world changed a lot.Lecroys (when they were the only digital) had a pretty weird interface. Because they were trying to do new things, not emulate analog scopes. The interface was based around the memory contents, not the screen display. The others first emulated analog storage scope interfaces and then tried to emulate all the other things that analog scopes do well.Teks used to be be head and shoulder above everyone including HP in analog scopes. But today's Tek isn't the company that made the name great (any more than HP is..).HP probably made the transition with the best reputation - they stayed usable and still got a lot out of digital features. But they're still chasing the idea of making a really good analog scope with a huge bunch of features. I don't know how far Lecroy have moved that way - I suspect a lot, but perhaps without losing the 'features first, familiarity second' which gave them both a headstart and something of a bad rep.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 07:07:56 am
content: What to answer when somebody asks: Which car should i buy? Which house should i buy?My first high end scope was a Tektronix 2465 (CRT, 4 channel, 300 MHz). It broke about once a year during the first 10 years. But another 15 years later i can turn it on and it will work perfectly.Later i acquired some Lecroy DSOs and they also required some TLC. The last one was a SDA 6020 (DSO, 4 channel, 6 GHz), which was about US $ 5000. When you change your perspective a little, a pre-owned Lecroy DSO is a fantastic investment and comes about a factor 5 lower than anything comparable. Those machines mostly come from institutional labs and are in reasonable shape. A Lecroy 9354AL that i bought about 15 years ago for US $ 400 just required replacement of a burnt resistor in the power supply. It works to specs until today.Those machines are versatile and serve for almost everything within their bandwidth limits. They also made portable machines like the WR 64Xi mentioned above.Regards, Dieter