Suggestions needed on choosing a compact IR camera for inspecting PCB - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Marek85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 05:29:18 pm
content: Hello,I'm searching for a compact thermal camera that I can use inside a shielded box during EMC tests (BCI). The idea is to observe what parts of the PCB heat up and correlate them with frequency and power that is injected into BCI. I'm thing of something like this:1. Up to 200$ - I want to start with a cheap camera because of the risk of damaging it from RF.2. A simple communication protocol. I wan't to use fiber optic transceiver diode to get the signal out of the shielded box with a fiber optic cable and view it live outside the box.3. Small size like max = 10 cm^3 . There isn't much room in the shielded box.4. Macro lens. Should be able to shoot from distance 10 - 30 cm.5. Temp range 0 - 200/300 degC.I think an ideal solution would be a thermal detector with some decent optics and a serial output interface.Looking forward to your suggestions!Kind RegardsMarek

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 04:41:55 pm
content: I have had a think about your question.My first thought was that you were asking too much for too low an expenditure. Then I thought more positively !In your situation and within your intended budget I can only suggest one of the available mobile phone dongle type thermal cameras. Some are within your budget whilst others are higher but much better for imaging PCB's etc.The models that come to mind are1. SEEK Thermal Classic2. SEEK Thermal PRO3. FLIR ONE Gen 24. Therm App5. Thermal Expert TE-Q1I would place the camera module inside the RF enclosure and use a well screened Micro USB OTG extension cable to an Android device such as an Android Phone, Tablet or desktop computer format. Ferrite beads may also be needed on the USB cable but there're commonly available.The lens aperture in the RF enclosure may need some fine metal mesh over it to maintain the screen integrity at the frequencies being used. There is the potential for the mesh to interfere with the camera image so some experimentation is needed. Do not use RF screening glass, it is not transmissive at thermal energy wavelengths. A pure Germanium window adhered with conductive tape and glue is another possibility as it is metal. it will be expensive though.Your current budget just about covers the SEEK Classic model and the FLIR ONE Gen 2. Both will need either adjustments to their focus. Alternatively a cheap ($15) ZnSe Close-up CO2 laser engraver lens may be placed in front of the objective. The available FL's are 50mm, 63mm, 75mm and 100mm. They come from China via eBay. In the USA there are other sources of such lenses such as Edmunds Optics and Thorlabs, but they are expensive.The Therm App and Thermal Expert cameras are superior to other phone dongle types but cost a lot more. They may be what you want to look at after proving your process using a cheaper, less able camera.The Android app will provide the image display and storage for reports etc.I know of no serial data controlled thermal cameras within your budget that will provide a standard video output over a fibre optic link. Professional thermal cameras offer all manner of fasciitis but they cost magnitudes more than your budget.If you want a really tiny thermal camera head. You could remove the LEPTON 3 camera moduke from the FLIR ONE Gen2 and use a screened umbilical from it back to the FLIR ONE camera chassis positions a short distance away.The LEPTON 3 is a self contained thermal camera core in a tiny format. Such a 'remote head' system topology may even permit the use of control and data via fibre optic. Take a look at the LEPTON 3 datasheet.All the Best with the prioject.Fraser

author: Marek85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 10:22:44 pm
content: Hey!Wow thanks a lot for your ideas! I really appreciate that.I saw those mobile thermal cameras and as for the basic functionality It would be OK. But I'm afraid I will tost them with RF. They look really fragile. I'm also concerned about getting out the USB cable out from the shielded box. It might damage the mobile phone or other equipment. Nevertheless I might give it a shot if I don't find any other solution.In the first place I was hoping that I can find a decent thermal sensor with some sort of serial interface. Then I could take the raw data and try to convert int into VGA image. But... I took a cold shower and got more realistic - this would be beyond my skills. I realized also that getting VGA image one thing and taking care of calibrations, offsets and shutter control is another. I also noticed that thermal imaging area is pretty much closed at the moment - not much data out there. It's not like you buy a microcontroller and datasheet tells you how to do things step by step. The most informative for me are the tear downs...Well when I saw Mike's tear down of Audi night vision camera I thought that would be ideal. A lot of shielding and well designed in terms of RF immunity. Sadly the communications protocol is closed and the camera is not hacked at the moment.If it would be possible to get this audi camera working (or find a similar on the market) and communication and image could be taken out of the shielded box with fiber optic cable then I could give 1000$ for it... But I'm not sure if nightvision camera would be usable with PCB's.Best RegardsMarek

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 11:29:37 pm
content: Look up FLIR TAU2 core on the FLIR web site.The Audi camera is basically a TAU camera with some anti re-deployment protection built into it in order to comply with Dual Use technology regulations. The FLIR PS and MS thermal scopes contain the TAU2 core. Do not hold your breath on the cracking of the Audi and BMW protection. The cameras lock out when hacking is attempted. They are massively over priced on eBay and are basically paper weights. Earlier models of the BMW Autoliv camera had a different look and were a FLIR Photon core. The connector is a large oval shape with many pins. These are power in, video out cameras but provide no measurement capability. They sell for around $600 on eBay.The TAU is controlled via RS232 commands at UART 3V3 logic levels. It can close focus and it outputs standard composite video. Resolution is a healthy 320 x 240 pixels. All manner of functions, palettes and radiometric measurements are selectable using the free control software on a PC.Fraser

author: Marek85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 04:52:13 pm
content: Again your post is very helpful Fraser!FLIR TAU or PHOTON cores look just like what I'm looking for, but I looked on eBay and they cost 2k$. Which one you meant that costs around 600$?By the way do you know any thermal cores that send the image via SPI?RegardsMarek

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 06:38:31 pm
content: The FLIR TAU and Photon cameras come up used on ebay for around $600.New, they cost a lot, used is the cheapest route for youFraser

author: Marek85
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 11:27:13 pm
content: Haven't seen them so cheap yet but I'll keep an eye for that.I just found out that they make now fiber optic cables with HDMI connectors at both ends. The fiber optic transducers just sit inside the HDMI connector and are powered from the HDMI socket. Pretty convenient for my application! Let's forget about VGA then

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 11:46:15 pm
content: Several Photon cameras sold recently......http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLIR-Photon-320-30hz-14-25mm-Lens-Thermal-Imaging-Camera-Core-/262896015202?hash=item3d35d2d762%3Ag%3ANVwAAOSwYXVYyV-j&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flir-Photon-Thermal-Camera-/112334216316?hash=item1a27a41c7c%3Ag%3A18AAAOSwfVpYvNbM&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLIR-Photon-320-30hz-14-25mm-Lens-Thermal-Imaging-Camera-Core-/262893742997?hash=item3d35b02b95%3Ag%3A9GEAAOSwCU1YxvpD&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flir-Photon-Thermal-Camera-/112325382977?hash=item1a271d5341%3Ag%3A18AAAOSwfVpYvNbM&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLIR-Photon-320-30hz-With-13mm-Lens-Thermal-Imaging-Camera-Core-/262889518492?hash=item3d356fb59c%3Ag%3AbqUAAOSwfVpYwc2f&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLIR-Photon-320-30hz-With-13mm-Lens-Thermal-Imaging-Camera-Core-/262888355512?hash=item3d355df6b8%3Ag%3AbqUAAOSwfVpYwc2f&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/flir-photon-320-Pal-25Hz-NTSC-30Hz-With-100mm-Lens-In-Carbon-fiber-Housings-/332201971743?hash=item4d58c7d01f%3Ag%3AoF4AAOSw2gxYxVHn&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/flir-photon-320-Pal-25Hz-NTSC-30Hz-With-100mm-Lens-In-Carbon-fiber-Housings-/332168032090?hash=item4d56c1ef5a%3Ag%3AoF4AAOSw2gxYxVHn&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/flir-photon-320-Pal-25Hz-NTSC-30Hz-With-100mm-Lens-In-Carbon-fiber-Housings-/332167081698?hash=item4d56b36ee2%3Ag%3AoF4AAOSw2gxYxVHn&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/flir-photon-320-Pal-25Hz-NTSC-30Hz-With-100mm-Lens-In-Carbon-fiber-Housings-/332166148832?hash=item4d56a532e0%3Ag%3AoF4AAOSw2gxYxVHn&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/flir-photon-320-Pal-25Hz-NTSC-30Hz-With-35mm-Lens-In-Carbon-fiber-Housings-/332163619320?hash=item4d567e99f8%3Ag%3A~wUAAOSw2gxYxvWF&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/flir-photon-320-Pal-25Hz-NTSC-30Hz-With-35mm-Lens-In-Carbon-fiber-Housings-/332162371481?hash=item4d566b8f99%3Ag%3A~wUAAOSw2gxYxvWF&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/flir-photon-320-Pal-25Hz-NTSC-30Hz-With-100mm-Lens-In-Carbon-fiber-Housings-/332159695118?hash=item4d5642b90e%3Ag%3AoF4AAOSw2gxYxVHn&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557http://www.ebay.com/itm/flir-photon-320-Pal-25Hz-NTSC-30Hz-With-100mm-Lens-In-Carbon-fiber-Housings-/332152445556?hash=item4d55d41a74%3Ag%3AoF4AAOSw2gxYxVHn&nma=true&si=a2CJ11urf16SL9Mk215udb5s70w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557They are out there as you can see, so keep your eyes peeled and negotiate with sellersFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 11:51:30 pm
content: There is one for sale in the Channel Islands at the moment but at £750. The large 50mm lens may, or may not, meet your needs and would likely need a close-up lens in front of it.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/flir-photon-9hz-50mm-Lens-324-H-x-256-V-/262961900801?hash=item3d39c02d01:g:384AAOSwT-FZB0JhFraser