How can we compete with China? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 05:03:40 am
content: I've ordered 3 boards from JLCPCB Saturday night around 9PM, all 4 layers, small boards, 5 each. 21 USD including shipping, today they are ready to ship. They have quite good DFT, live progress, etc. I work in manufacturing and I know the challenges. I think it's a lost cause. I don't want to start a political war, I'm only talking about the technology they have. It's scary!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 05:13:42 am
content: No one can compete with the low cost PCB services out of China. It would be foolish to even try.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 05:14:39 am
content: Quote from: Miti on February 04, 2025, 05:03:40 amComparative advantage.Do what you're good at, let the Chinese do what they're good at, and say thank you to them for giving us so much good quality stuff for so little money.The more their economy depends on making stuff for us, the safer we are.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 05:15:38 am
content: Well, ask yourself this: did the Chinese somehow steal all that trade (not just electronics but every other conceivable product) from us, or did we--the "west"--willingly and gladly give it to them because of lower manufacturing costs?Who's the bad guy here?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 05:20:48 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 04, 2025, 05:15:38 amThere is no bad guy here, without local market protection, the general market just did what the general market does.

author: electrodacus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 05:21:28 am
content: Yes it is possible to compete with that except for the super low shipping cost. (I will not be able to ship at that cost within Canada let alone to another continent).The key is to automate the entire process. It is possible that the prototypes are at a bit of a discount and your boards are likely super small.I found that for production runs (small production hundreds of boards) the price has increased and the shipping cost is also way higher than it used to be to the point that I will consider alternatives.Everything will need to be done by full automation controlled by AI. There is no point in starting any sort of business including one for low volume PCB manufacturing that requires humans. I'm fairly sure they are fairly automated (still have some humans) and they have fairly decent margins.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 05:30:26 am
content: Quote from: electrodacus on February 04, 2025, 05:21:28 amWith the exception of “controlled by AI” we’ve tried to automate and integrate for years. Nope, still not there. They seem to be good at that.

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 06:10:15 am
content: It seems you don't understand China.JLCPCB is just one of the printed circuit board manufacturing companies,There are many companies that you don’t know about and they haven’t entered the US market.Now,As long as you have a good idea, it will soon become a physical object in China，And can be mass-produced。Take the most commonly used Altium Designer as an example,You still install huge AD software on your computer, and it often crashes.We are already using LCEDA which is more convenient and online,At first I thought it was a joke, but when you use it seriously you will find that it is the same as AD software, and more convenient.I no longer have to look for component footprint libraries because they are available JLConline Store.And it corresponds one to one with the real object。The only downside is that the price is a bit expensive

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 06:12:04 am
content: "Competing" no. But we can always build much larger plants than we have now and automate the heck out of every step of the process to, not come close, but at least be "affordable" for companies using their services to remain profitable. I think that's the point. But for those who need ultra-low cost PCB/A, then China is impossible to avoid. What I'm saying is that we can still do better than we do now, and create an intermediate market instead of always going for the cheapest fab you can find on Earth, if you don't need that and can still have a sizeable margin with slightly more expensive services. The obsession with minimizing costs is insane past a certain point. Using services that you can *afford* while keeping your margin at the level that makes you profitable should be the goal. Not making your margin as high as possible with no limit. Just a thought which revolves back to the idea that we can't compete, but don't need to compete either and still have some healthy PCB industry.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 06:22:29 am
content: Quote from: electrodacus on February 04, 2025, 05:21:28 amThe low postage rates from China are a relic of a system in which IIRC each country charges what it wants for outbound post and delivers inbound post for free, under a historical assumption that most post is letters and most letters get a reply. The current situation with most physical post being parcels and the opposite flow of orders being online is just violating the assumptions.It's probably going go take a Trump to change the system, if it comes to his attention.There's a similar situation with international PSTN calls, but they are essentially irrelevant today.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:00:39 am
content: Once you get beyond sample-quantities the shipping costs go way up though...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 08:19:54 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 04, 2025, 06:22:29 amChina gets discounted postal rates under the International Postal Union scheme because they are a "developing nation"

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 08:38:58 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 08:19:54 amNot only that. Germany (what other country would be that stupid) still pays for development projects within China.And even better: Germany pays *billions* to modernize chinese factories or phantom emission-reducing projects.At the same time, european/german customs and postal services are swamped by subsidized packages from China. From platforms that don't pay a single Cent of taxes/import duties. They just don't care to act, ignoring the wrongdoings "big customer China" since like ever.Concerning is the unwillingness to act against marketing conquering strategies from China.Offer a service/product at an impossible low price, due to great demand, build massive production facilities, keep the price low, until worldwide competition is destroyed. Raise the price.We had this with the german solar industry, politics gave in to China and pulled literally the plug on manufacturing in Germany. Chemical industry has already been destroyed, pharmaceutical industry has been destroyed, steel industry has been destroyed, car industry is next. Pure ignorance on the political side, even doing business in Germany became impossible. I can not blame the large companies from heading away as fast as possible.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 08:46:04 am
content: the way to compete with China is to do what is Not mass producible. be particular so make it one of a kind. custom-made or bespoke , made to order.make it hard to mass copy. when it comes to modular electronics this is difficult. but Not impossible to stand out from the crowd.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:02:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 08:19:54 ami always find it funny about this "developing nation" termthey are capable of building space stations now* i just googled and their city delivery workers have a wage of about USD700/mth

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:11:17 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on February 04, 2025, 08:46:04 amIn my opinion, these are all in vain.If you want to compete, the current price is not the lowest price.And does not change the quality as a premise.Mass production is a product of industrialization.This is a naive idea that goes against the times and technological development.And there is no population advantage

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:14:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 05:13:42 amI know a guy who can, and many of his admirers consider him a very wise man. He says the most beautiful word in his limited vocabulary is tariffs. Slap a 1000% tariff on PCB imports, and a CIF price of $21 quickly jumps to $231.

author: psysc0rpi0n
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:29:29 pm
content: Quote from: Miti on February 04, 2025, 05:03:40 amI think it is impossible to disassociate the politics in this subject. They can do these prices at the quality they provide, mostly because they are a communist country that uses the power of communism to favour cheap labour and also they have kids working at ages that the westerns would never allow.I don't say it's the case of this or that company, but it's the general concept of how it is possible to keep some quality at so low prices. And then market kicks in and as the demand increases, the goods also become more valuable, but as they are so many, the ratio between demand and offer probably don't allow the prices to go up, or even government control.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:47:53 pm
content: Wages in China are not so low as to make the difference as significant as it is. Average wage in Shenzhen is around US$1,500 per month for a factory worker (according to a friend of mine who manufactures stuff in China.) That's maybe half what an American worker gets paid. I think the real advantage is cities like Shenzhen have such tight integration that costs can be lowered by massive cooperation and efficiency.For instance, on one street you will find someone selling components, making FR-4 laminate, making prepregs, making copper plates. Whereas an American or European company would need to source these from across the region, that adds delays, and uncertainty. And if there are only a few suppliers you can use, then there is less market efficiency when one supplier puts their prices up, or there is a delay or shortage somewhere. You need greater buffers, maybe a few days of stock instead of running a Just in Time facility.The actual labour involved in PCB manufacturing when you automate as much as JLCPCB does is not that significant either. I believe you could probably get the US or European cost to within twice that of the Chinese cost, which then after shipping and even 10% import duties would probably land at almost the same cost at the engineer's doorstep.But this integration can only happen with massive demand and with American companies willing to make very small margins at very high volumes... and many SME's in the USA and Europe are just not set up for this way of thinking. Insufficient automation, excessive intervention from management, not enough investment in process improvements leave them struggling to compete. Just look at how much some companies spend on sales instead of R&D.

author: lokin4areason
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:51:05 pm
content: if you want to avoid in using any thing from china , you have to source it elsewhere or make it yourself

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 05:13:42 amand if they can they will copy any design that may be popular .... we can not compete that's allsalary is one of them tooyou'll never get an low cost china gizmo equivalence, they make them by the ton / they saturate the market ...list goes on and on

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:09:24 pm
content: Focusing on China's economic impact:If .01% (Hypothetical number) of humans are geniuses, then the larger your population, the more geniuses you will produce. Law of big numbers.Since Mao, China has focused on EDUCATION while in the US education and population are on the decline.Third, many countries moved manufacturing to China at very liberal terms. Like Japan after WWII, China did not build using old school processes but built using new and improved technologies. Many countries had the attitude of Chevrolet in the 1970s and 1980s; dismissing Toyota. To further that analogy, I remember when it was popular to dismiss Japan industry as excellent copiers, but unable to innovate. Of course, they (and China) were studying the processes for adoption and improvement.And when it takes $30 an hour to find employees at Costco (true), and almost 1/4 million $ USD for any college education, how many innovators will the US produce compared to our time in the sun?So it goes.

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 02:34:20 pm
content: Quote from: psysc0rpi0n on February 04, 2025, 12:29:29 pmHaha, there are not so many child laborers to hire.What you see is not the real world

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 02:45:17 pm
content: When I was a child I got to tour a really nice circuit board manufacturing facility in the US that my Dad worked on. It wasn't making PCBs but populating and soldering parts. Nearly every part of the process was automated with conveyor belts everywhere. Sadly, this facility was stopped to outsource production to China.So while automation is important for keeping costs low, Chinese low production costs still undercut automation. There are advantages for design for manufacturing by having the designers and the manufacturers working as part of the same company together. But with outsourced design, this isn't possible anyway.Many US companies are the whole "designed in the USA, manufactured in China". But what happens if you no longer design in the USA? The company ends up being just a large marketing and advertising department. And then we have AI replace marketing... I'm not sure what's left.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 03:06:56 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on February 04, 2025, 01:09:24 pmQuote from: dferyance on February 04, 2025, 02:45:17 pmfix: what happensifwhenyou no longer design in the USA?Very uncomfortable truths, which we have yet to see run to completion. In general the west stills holds on to a view of China that is rapidly becoming outdated. It will without doubt, move from historically servicing just the low-cost manufacturing needs of the Western/US companies, to achieving leadership in some of those same fields.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 03:45:38 pm
content: How can we compete with China? We can't.For many years we told ourselves we were moving "further up the value chain" by off-loading the low profit drudgery to China while we kept the shiny bits: design, development, marketing, sales, post-sales support, etc. Unfortunately for us, Chinese people are just as smart as us and are perfectly capable of innovation, design and development, pushing new products into the market place without needing any help from us in the West.I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK we've undergone a major culture shift. As a nation we've become increasingly work shy (sorry, we are "reviewing our work-life balance"), and in general we're focusing more and more on our rights and less on our responsibilities. We have millions of people who are capable of doing some kind of work, but choose not to because they can survive well enough on benefits. (And yes, I know about the subset who blame health reasons, but that's for another discussion.)Contrast that with China - I've met many Chinese people in a professional environment, and they are very impressive. They are highly educated and highly motivated. They are smart and resourceful.We have dismantled most of our manufacturing industry and handed it over to China because we struggled to make it profitable. China is now producing electric cars en masse, and thanks to clever marketing (eg buying and using familiar brands like MG) they are surely an enormous threat to the European car industry. If China ever decides to compete with London in the area of financial services, the UK will be comprehensively stuffed.TL, DR:In the UK, we can't compete, and we are inexorably moving down the post-peak gradient to third-world status, (but without the nice weather), just like every other historical civilisation and empire: Greece, the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the Spanish Empire, the Islamic Caliphates, the Aztec and Inca Empires, etc. Our decline is inevitable. The 18th century belonged to the Spanish, the 19th to the British. The 20th century was the American century. The 21st century will be the Chinese century.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 04:41:16 pm
content: Steve. How I wish I could find any flaw in your summation. However, I can only add that we now have 25% of our children still sh*tting their pants when they start school.I'll change into my DJ, please bring on the iceberg.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 04:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 04, 2025, 03:45:38 pmThat misses a key point. How do you get to be a highly effective person in their 30s? You start by doing more basic things in your 20s. If the basic things are being done by people in their 20s in China, after 10 years all the highly experienced people in their 30s capable of holding senior positions are in China. Sending simple assembly work to the Far East was relatively harmless for the west. Once the entry level engineering jobs started to move, the senior ones were bound to follow.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: dferyance on February 04, 2025, 02:45:17 pmI'll telll you what's left:Militarized police forces, including robots authorized to use deadly forceA complete panopticon national security state with cameras everywhereMore and more corporate give-aways to the biggest blobs (Amazon, Google, etc.)Certainly not the god-damned world I want to live in. But who asked me?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 08:10:25 pm
content: The ship has long sailed, only chance the uk has if some builds a time machine and go's back and tell us whats ahead while were on strike because management wanting us to fit part 67 to part 92 instead of part 34a.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 08:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 04, 2025, 08:10:25 pmAnd it's on an Airbus, not some ordinary piece of electronic equipment.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:13:27 pm
content: Nations rise and fall in 20 - 80 - 160 yr cycles and for that matter great empires toojust as business has its own cycle too. phase difference between UK - US - RUS & CN is striking.the weather cycle is also contributing factor ….going off topic a bit

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:47:02 pm
content: Not in a clean way. Oops I almost went into politics!

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:11:16 pm
content: Speaking as an ex-employee (about 15 years ago) of a US semiconductor company that closed its UK and German development offices and opened one in China instead, sometimes we don't deserve to!

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 11:03:27 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 04, 2025, 12:47:53 pmPeople forget to add on worker entitlements and business overheads.Take Australia.On top of their wage a worker in Australia will get paid accrued sick leave. annual leave (4 weeks paid), overtime (I have seen up to triple time in some areas), paid parental leave, cultural leave, maternity leave, reproductive leave, superannuation and no doubt others.Employees are also protected by things like unfair dismissal (just read today a worker who got sacked for calling his boss the c word and got sacked was found to be sacked unfairly by the government commission), workplace health and safety, and no doubt plenty of other protections.Then there are the overheads like buildings costs, insurances (workers compensation, public liability etc etc), electricity, environmental laws to follow.Then if you make money the taxation comes into effect.It is a super high cost country to do anything here and as such not much gets done unless it is low risk white/pink collar.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 11:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 04, 2025, 10:11:16 pm15 years ago it was easy to set up a good silicon design centre in China, although a lot more were going to India. In the 90s, when people like Motorola set up early design centres in China, the results were really iffy. Pretty good equipment design teams were starting to form in China, but silicon designs didn't go so well. Now the people who fumbled their way through designs in the 90s have matured into solid tiers of capable engineers from junior to senior. 15 years ago it was relatively easy to set up a design centre in China and achieve fairly rapid success. Your ex-employer no doubt benefited from the pain Motorola suffered.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:07:55 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 04, 2025, 03:45:38 pmAll the past great empires share one thing in common. They're all in the past. Every empire, ever, has followed a similar trajectory and America is now entering its latter stages of decline. But I'm not so sure China will be able to adopt a similarly dominant position. They have an aging population that will drag on their growth. But military spending always increases preceding the end as the empire struggles to maintain ever threatened trade routes. e.g. Panama canal. There is already a Chinese influence at both ends as China projects itself across the globe. If the Suez canal wasn't in the middle east then the west would have much less interest in a presence there. Competing with China in a trade war will at least ensure no-one wins. The question for me is will a war with China happen before America fractures internally.The real answer is trade and having each country do what it does well and buy from outside those things others can do better or more cheaply. Is America (or Australia) going to make shoes and brooms again? I heard recently America doesn't even make the machines to make shoes anymore. It is going to take some serious commitment to tariff protections to encourage the investment in shoe-making again. Why do I mention shoes? It is a reference to the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. But America might want to consider retaining some cheap foreign labour just in case.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:25:13 am
content: I would encourage everyone who is interested in this topic to read the book:The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, by Paul Kennedy.Unfortunately, like a dying star, a Great Power goes full super-nova prior to settling into a dwarf star.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:11:31 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on February 04, 2025, 01:07:50 pmMany people still think that China copies everything they can get into their hands and that's all they know. I think that is a misconception now. They invested massively in education. Have you seen how many Chinese students are in the Canadian universities, and I bet US too. Think of our friend Blue Skull. There are many, many like him. They go back with master and PHD degree and teach in their schools and I know, they take education very seriously. The most dangerous thing in a war is to underestimate your enemy. Not that we are in a war, mainly in a technological competition, but if we don't pull our heads out of our arses... subito, we're in deep sh..tuff and no tariffs or sanctions will help.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:20:51 am
content: Realistically the way you would compete with low cost manufacturing is... innovation.A better processthis could bemachinery:-low cost machinery-low maintenance machinery-combined machinery(easy, hard to imagine though.. it ends up being machinery that 'flies' )innovating chemistry:better etching solutionbetter plating/electroforming controlor just new ways to do thingsI just made one up: ultra high speed ion / plasma / laser cutting/milling of thin copper sheets that are handled electrostatically and use vacuum deposited pressure adhesive to put together on substrates. The torches are like a printer head that moves down a sheet of copper removing everything you don't want, and its all done on big rolls like a news paper factory really fast with advanced AI figuring out how to break up different designs dynamically to optimize throughput, and it actually some how welds different clippings of copper together into a uniform sheet with nice ground and polished butt joint welds. A ion handler system continously evacuates the copper smoke and makes new sheet on a special rotating condenser drumobviously your not gonna beat them doing what their doing with what they payrequirements1) money2) vision3) smart motivated peoplethe political way is just buying timeAnd you always need to consider government subsidy, it may be possible to undermine certain industries by running a insane amount of secret money into certain things for strategic purposes and selling at a loss, the rest of the world does not have that many government strings attached to industry. I don't think it could be called a economic war which many people say unless there is covert activity, war always has covert activity going on. I think thats where economic analysis falls short, it assumes its like a natural system without intelligence

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:56:17 am
content: I again don't think that "competing" makes sense (as in: being able to offer the same service or better at the same price point), but offering a possibly slightly higher quality (with more controls & more technical advice) at a reasonable price point works. And it's already working. I mean, reading some people, it may look like all companies in the world now use chinese PCB makers and assembly exclusively. That's just not so. Many companies use western services, especially when they have specific constraints, or just when they need better technical customer service. There are quite a few just in Europe. Eurocircuits being one of the largest. And we have some high-end ones for aerospace, medical devices, industrial, and so on.The idea that the PCB industry is dead in Europe (or in the West in general) is a false one. Just focus on our own know-how, rather than try to copy China (which would be ironic). We can't compete price-wise, but price is not the only factor.And if we want to develop this industry, a political approach is still necessary. That's actually what politics should be used for: having a strategy and devising incentives to nudge in the right direction.Now I'm way more for incentives (positive, like reduced taxes, financial help, etc) than sticks (negative, like tariffs), although one may argue that they are eventually the same thing.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:34:52 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 05, 2025, 01:56:17 amI strongly disagree! Our customers are pushing us to move production to China, Mexico... Penny pinchers everywhere.

author: quiklearner
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:00:24 am
content: China's demographic profile is about to fall off a cliff... Some are saying it is unprecedented in human history.There are some estimates that put their population at only 800-900 million, not 1.4 billion as they officially report. Their birth rate has been well below 1 for may years now and well, no one is emigrating to China. Not in any meaningful numbers anyways.This was inadvertently (and accidently) confirmed by Victor Gao in an August 2024 live interview when he blurted out, "I would say, uhh, China need to make more, uhhh, take more prompt actrion in, uhh, dealing with, uhh, aging population in China and the dramatic, uhhhh, population decline."He also admitted that, "Corruption is RAMPANT in China!" in the same interview.Here's the interview:https://youtu.be/kmYdpHtOv_E?si=BtZMTggOtUs-3HTmChina as the world's manufacturing hub is coming to an end. It's a mathematical certainty.DON'T invest now.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:12:28 am
content: In a globalised world, catching up can only be done with mercantilism. The transparencies of markets has made everything winner take all, so if the winner is foreign handicap the winner.Ignoring demographic/cultural issues though.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:20:16 am
content: Quote from: quiklearner on February 05, 2025, 05:00:24 amChina's "One child per family" policy, in place from 1979 to 2015 has got to be an absolute disaster, all the more so because cultural reasons reportedly led to selective abortion of a significant proportion of females. The demographic pyramid in Wikipedia shows around a 10% surplus of males between the ages of about 5 and 35.Populations can recover quite quickly from losing males e.g. in war through official or unofficial polygamy but it's not so easy to recover from a loss of females.I have quite a bit to do with some hardware and software teams in China and I've been quite surprised at the proportion of transwomen in the teams. Possibly that is a kind of response to the imbalance, though of course it won't help with arresting population decline.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:31:59 am
content: Quote from: quiklearner on February 05, 2025, 05:00:24 amWe've heard this song before; Japan was supposedly circling the drain because of their low birthrate and declining population.Hasn't happened.Besides, maybe depopulation might actually be a good thing for a country, even for its economy.

author: quiklearner
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:38:37 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 05, 2025, 05:31:59 amJapan wasn't an authoritarian dictatorship and people actually wanted to move there.... No one wants to move to China to exist under current conditions. Again, not in any meaningful numbers. China has ALWAYS had negative migration.In fact, there is no mechanism in place in China to allow for permanent residency or citizenship for foreigners.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:07:20 am
content: Quote from: quiklearner on February 05, 2025, 05:38:37 amI don't think that's true. According tothis document,Quote

author: quiklearner
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:15:27 am
content: That is not an official document of the Chinese government....However, Article 9 is interesting....Allow me to reiterate: There is no way to become a Chinese citizen as a foreigner. You just can't.Sorry man...

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:26:24 am
content: Quote from: quiklearner on February 05, 2025, 06:15:27 amIsthis pageofficial enough for you? (China's National Immigration Administration)Do you consider yourself some kind of China expert? (I don't consider myself one.)Article 9 just means that China doesn't recognize dual citizenship.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:39:16 am
content: Interesting document (from the Pew Research Center) re:China's population and where it's headed.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:41:13 am
content: Just make stuff from China "unobtainable"!No more packages from China for US!https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/usps-suspends-packages-china-hong-kong/?intcid=CNM-00-10abd1hPresumably because there is not enough "infrastructure" to implement this:https://www.inc.com/jennifer-conrad/trump-just-eliminated-the-800-duty-free-exemption-for-imports-from-china-it-could-be-a-disaster-for-small-businesses/91143261

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:15:35 am
content: Several studies show a global population decline, not just in China, but worldwide, by about 2100. Even Africa.If it happens "naturally" as a consequence of how our societies are structured, and other factors that we probably don't control at all, that's fine. Populations can't expand indefinitely. There are always cycles.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 08:19:57 am
content: Quote from: Miti on February 05, 2025, 02:34:52 amOur customers should realize that by doing so they are demolishing the world they (and we, for we are all customers) live in. I agree with the view that we can't compete with China price-wise but that there are more important factors on which we can. A higher price is the price we must pay to get these factored in.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:28:57 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 05, 2025, 05:20:16 amYea a farmer for example will put one bull with forty cows or so, and that is only for 3-5 months of the year. The rest of the year the bull is away from the cows but in that time he was expected to get most of the cows in calf.Not sure what the male to female ratio could be but also keep in mind bulls are chosen for certain traits, essentially all agriculture plants and animal breeding is eugenics. I sometimes wonder where humanity could go with selected breeding rather then a free for all.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:41:21 am
content: Quote from: .RC. on February 05, 2025, 09:28:57 amYeah. The Nazis were into that:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn(extensive description, use a translator) and many other "programs". I don't think we want that to ever happen again. Though Musk&Friends kind of head that way with spreading their "superior semen".

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 10:03:49 am
content: They were also into rocket science in a big way. That must be evil as well and no one should ever have anything to do with it right?Same with all agriculture since inception. We should revert to hunter gatherers because something something nazi's..

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 10:24:43 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on February 05, 2025, 09:41:21 amPoint of fact: Musk constantly encourages EVERYONE to have more children. Or at least everyone reading his tweets. He is leading by example, true, with 12 known children (one deceased). He could afford to (pay the mothers to) raise 10,000 if he really wanted to get busy.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 10:46:35 am
content: Quote from: Miti on February 05, 2025, 02:34:52 amMay be where you work, but price isn't always the main consideration. A defense contractor might be more concerned with security, rather than price.To answer the original question: compete with China on the grounds of what? Price? Turn around time? Customer service? Quality?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:24:04 am
content: Quote from: watchmaker on February 04, 2025, 01:09:24 pmA big problem with high wages in the US is they're often justified when you look at the CoL. For an example, San Francisco, the average 1 bed apartment within 30 minutes drive is at least $2,500 a month. Forget anywhere convenient like near a transit station... and then also risk dealing with drug abuse, homelessness, etc. in the dodgier areas with all the associated costs like high car insurance costs. Because Americans love to build single family homes with massive sprawl, and these are attractive to middle class families, but they mean that you have far more space used for the same number of people compared to a dense city.That's not to say American cities don't get dense - obviously high rise apartments exist - but it's never done on the same scale as somewhere like China which actually builds normal places for people to live in dense blocks. In the US, high rise apartments seem to mostly be in rich areas in the core of a city and are actually seen as a luxury place to live rather than normal housing. (The 'Trump Towers' of the area, for instance.) I'm not sure why.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:25:41 pm
content: Quote from: woody on February 05, 2025, 08:19:57 amAnd thy are doing exactly this since Bush senior and Clinton. All the corporations care about is this, and maybe next, quarter bottom line. This is one of the main issue in my opinion, the lack of long time vision. Chinese are patient, they think in the future. I heard a Chinese proverb that says something like this “if you sit by the river long enough, you’ll see your enemies floating down the river “.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 05, 2025, 10:46:35 amOn having a local economy where people can have a decent job and feed their families. Do you know that many people are working 2, 3 jobs and barely making enough money to meet their needs? Not in developing countries, in the US and Canada. Where do we go from here?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: Miti on February 05, 2025, 12:33:34 pmYour original post was purely about PCB manufacturing. It appears as though you now wish to have a wider discussion on the competitiveness of China.I acknowledge the issues regarding working several jobs and just scraping by, but the explanation is far more complex, than China took all of our jobs. I could suggest many reasons why there are these problems in many developed countries, but it's political and is against the rules.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:53:57 pm
content: maybe we need a special YT episode of "where is all the money?"follow the money per say ?

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:14:11 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 05, 2025, 12:41:41 pmNo, that was just an example of my latest personal experience, apparently positive, no doubt about that, like a kid in a candy store, unaware of the rotten teeth.Yes, the issue is politics ruining societies.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 05, 2025, 05:20:16 amPopulations can only recover if the people have the desire for it to recover. Two generations of city dwellers in China have grown up where they were the only child, and most of their friends were the only child. It has become normalised to be an only child, and kinda weird to have siblings. Can you ever reverse that, even if you have lots of women?The whole Chinese want boys thing is a bit dated. At least for city dwellers, I found most of my friends having children in the past maybe 15 years wanted a girl.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:29:23 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 05, 2025, 10:46:35 amThis seems a reasonable argument, especially when you consider the audit requirements for defence work. However, a lot of components for western military systems seem to currently be made in China

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 05, 2025, 01:29:23 pmYes, and a good reason for an overblown defence industry, when it is all that's left and considering how profitable it is.Quote from: coppice on February 05, 2025, 01:29:23 pm

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: Miti on February 05, 2025, 01:33:32 pmWhy is that a problem? No doubt plenty of generic components used in military systems are made in China: resistors, capacitors, screws, nuts etc.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:00:41 pm
content: its a problem because I can't get a job down the street making hex bolts for the army and then quit that job when a chrismas bonus comes up short to get another job two streets down that pays more for making torx bolts

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 05, 2025, 01:59:14 pmIts not a problem for very generic parts like the ones you list. In most cases there will be multiple sources of parts listed in the approved design documents as certified suitable substitutes. So, you can switch suppliers without any consequences. Its the custom parts, especially ones with a real technology content, that are a problem. There may never have been any investigation of other sources, and getting them qualified is non-trivial.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 04, 2025, 12:47:53 pmThat is part of the problem but you shouldn't forget costs involved with worker safety and environmental regulations.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:23:37 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 05, 2025, 02:05:49 pmMaybe investing in qualification houses for advanced components can bring down the cost of developing high rel technologiesmanufacturing industry alliance? Then its not on a small company to figure out how to do a big project, or at least they could buy expert help that is reasonably priced, if the thing is orchestrated properly.You could have a discount for founders & big supporters to make it appealing to invest in, and then sell the services. Government can be involved if its blocked to helping only certain regions (at a lower price). I think it would un-cripple alot of stuff.Or just start investing in qualification engineers that can contract out later. Well I think thats how it is now.I think alot of those alliances are data focused, but they can be skill focused

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 05:24:02 am
content: Quote from: .RC. on February 05, 2025, 09:28:57 amYeah, you and Adolf and Himmler.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 05:27:43 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 05, 2025, 12:41:41 pmNo. Just no.China didn't take shit.We sent our jobs over there.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 10:29:58 am
content: It is basic economics 101. Supply and demand at work.Manufacturersdemandlower costs for producing their goods. A CEO who does not seek to maximize profits is not doing his/her job and should/will be replaced. That is not a choice that the company is free to make or not make, it is a condition for staying in business; a condition for the company's financial survival. A company that ignores this makes less and less profit until it has nothing but red ink. The vultures buy it at a pittance and sell it's assets. Then the workers get a final pay check and everybody asks WHY did this happen.China has people and companies who are willing to work for less. Theysupplythe material and labor at lower rates so the product costs less, even after crossing the ocean. It may cost you thousands of dollars to travel around the world (in a ship or plane), but a widget can make the same trip for pennies (in a container).A responsible CEO can do nothing except take advantage of the lower prices. He/she MUST do what is best for his/her company. So their product costs less and can sell for less. Their product out sells the competition and their company survives while the competing companies fail (and everyone working for them is unemployed).China is years, decades actually, behind the US and European countries in terms of wages and the cost of materials. It is enviable that they will catch up. But that takes time; decades of time. And while they are catching up, their cost of production will, of necessity, be less. I'm 81 years old and probably won't see it. But one of these days the Chinese CEOs and political leaders will wake up one morning and see that China has unions. Gonna need a lot of popcorn, with lots of melted butter, to watch that one.Yes, China will catch up. And when they do, they will be saying the same things about African nations that we are saying here. Is there an end to it? I don't know. But I saw this happening decades ago and, so far, it has lived up to my expectations --------- or worst fears.On the bright side, there are other ways of earning money. I suggest that all the younger, working people look into them.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 12:23:10 pm
content: The problem being that profit in this Economics 101 view is a very limited, money-only definition. One that became increasingly popular in the last couple of decades and arguably one of the big forces behind outsourcing. Either we (re)learn to price in other aspects of doing business in the profit and loss calculations or we are destined to self-destruct.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 01:31:23 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 05, 2025, 10:24:43 amWay pay so much? Have you seen the Netflix documentary about the mass sperm donor? This guy -with no real job or income- has hundreds of children as far as they could track them but it is quite possible the number of children he has helped conceive is over a 1000.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 01:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: woody on February 08, 2025, 12:23:10 pmBut still, you can't deny the fact that manufacturing something is where least of the profit on a product is made. Then again, what you see happening nowadays is that manufacturers are cutting out the middle man and sell to consumers more directly. Look at Aliexpress, Amazon, Shein and Temu. IMHO the latter is where 'The West' needs to catch up in terms of business model.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 01:54:32 pm
content: From "The Global Impact of China’s Water and Related Environmental Problems" (https://www.hudson.org/environment/global-impact-chinas-water-related-environmental-problems-thomas-duesterberg):QuoteDo you want to compete with that?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 03:09:27 pm
content: Quote from: madires on February 08, 2025, 01:54:32 pmThat is a problem. Unfortunately big companies have a shockingly lack of moral compasses. Over 15 years later this is still relevant:So how do we compete with China? Support the environmentalist and consumer rights groups active in China.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 03:32:36 pm
content: Why big companies are blamed. It was started with Nixon agreement with China against USSR in 70th.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 09:31:21 pm
content: ... before you compete with others (insert country of choice)of course..you have to compete with the incompetence, derelict of duty, and obligations of your own ..

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 10:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: armandine2 on February 08, 2025, 09:31:21 pmYes. Make it hard for yourself, easy for others, and then blame others for unfair competition. Rinse and repeat.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 04:18:46 am
content: Do I WANT to compete with that? Obviously no.But neither MY desires nor MY decisions in the commercial world stage change the FACT that those conditions DO exist in China. Nor will my desires or actions change that fact to any discernible degree. So I and the rest of the world outside of China is forced to live with it.If you have a way to get China to be a better Stewart of their country and of the planet, I suggest that you enact it or get them to do so. I sincerely wish you the absolute best of luck in that.As I said above, China is in a state of change. They are evolving. At some time, in the future, they will realize that something must be done and they will do it. And it will make the price of their exports more expensive, just as it makes it more expensive for other countries to do so. But I fear that time is not in the all too near future.And then there is the danger/problem of the exact wrong things being done because the people advocating the loudest for "solutions" know nothing of the real problems and demand things that cause more harm than good.My best guess is that it will be at least 10 years before China starts to clean up the things you mention. Perhaps 20 or more. And it is anybody's guess as to how much time the good intention demands will add to that.Quote from: madires on February 08, 2025, 01:54:32 pm

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 04:46:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 08, 2025, 03:09:27 pmIt would be better to put the responsibility for the environment onto the voters to get government policy and oversight. Companies will factor the costs into their balance sheets if they have to. What they don't want is for one of their competitors to get an advantage because they only meet a lesser standard. The people in China do not want babies with three eyes and the Chinese communist party don't want civil unrest. As living standards rise and expectations rise for healthy living the Chinese will clean up. They are already embracing cleaner energy contrary to the current US administration.

author: jnk0le
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 03:05:59 pm
content: Don't forget that the CO2 emmited in China is greener than in US or european soviet union.Therefore we shall shutdown our entire industry (including food farming of course) and substitute it with chinese imports. So that our only export product is money.What could possibly go wrong?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 05:57:53 pm
content: Quote from: jnk0le on February 09, 2025, 03:05:59 pmIts amazing how many people are so bad at connecting the dots, they can't figure out that being a NIMBY doesn't work for CO2.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 06:11:35 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on February 08, 2025, 10:29:58 ama CEO is about profit but they can say we have a 5 or even 10 year target for company viability. The whole reason he is there is that he is supposed to make the smart decision for the long term good of the company. If not, then any fucking moron can figure out how to screw everything up for the next quarter. Its supposed to be a job where you have a longer term vision.Those bad ceo that scuttle things by next quarter WILL get replaced by AI.What the AI can't do, what a smart CEO would do, is do things like evaluate the 'strength' of agreements/alliances between companies, factor in geopolitics, have a vision of the future, how hard his own sales guys bullshit, etc and be able to correctly weigh that information IN ADDITION to the basic 'business math'. And something about company culture too (lol)So the CEO gets out of the water and the company is on the beach. His job is to say where to put up camp. He could decide to pitch a easy tent right on the shore, or decide to go hike up further, expending energy. Then its kind of like determining risk.If you have a awesome first week because you did not have to scale a small cliff, and then your tent gets washed out to sea, he did not make a good decision. I have a feeling alot of them setup the tent IN the waterBut I cant argue with people that basically say alot of CEO can be replaced by a RC circuit connected to a comparatorAnd with china, maybe its like deciding if you want your coastal village to be doing trade with a big ship moored by the beach. It can sink, sail away, raid you, etc

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 06:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 09, 2025, 06:11:35 pmA CEO is about furthering the benefits of the CEO. They will do whatever it takes to achieve their personal best outcome. The people setting the reward scheme for the CEO set the CEO's agenda. If the CEO will be rewarded most for setting short term financial goals, the company's long term is likely to be bleak. If they are set goals like "get merger X done" they might drive both companies to the brink of extinction, if that's the only way to make hold outs give up and enable the merger. If they are set longer term goals, the CEO will think and act in longer terms.Back when the head of a company was usually a member of the family who founded the company, and that family was heavily committed to owning the company for the long term, most company actions focussed on the long term. This can work well or badly. Motorola was run largely by its founding family, but let incompetence blow up a once great company. CEOs are hired hands, and always go the way the wind blows.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:40:41 pm
content: Hmm where does the reward scheme come from? I actually wanna know, do they have some popular business book that has a template that gets modified?I assume its written in 1820 and is based on running a textile business? It might be a bit modern and woke, maybe at google. For a more formal company, this source document probably out dates the old testament? babylonian tablet? cave drawings?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 10:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 09, 2025, 08:40:41 pmA CEO's reward scheme is set by the board and/or the shareholders. A famous recent one is Elon Musk's deal with Tesla shareholders that it he multiplied the value of Tesla by 13 he would get 12% of the company (I think those were the numbers). He did that, but a judge in Delaware (HQ of Tesla) complained. Now Delaware, which gets a lot of its revenue from the many companies with their HQ there, seems to be screwed. Many big companies are working to get their HQ out of a place where the courts can run a company, in opposition to its actual owners. Another interesting case was Carly Fiorina, when she headed HP. She was set the goal of "merge HP with Compaq and you get this pot of gold". She rigged things to get so bad for both companies all the people blocking the deal gave in and would agree to anything. Both companies suffered. She walked away with a large sum. Set stupid goals, get a stupid outcome.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 10:11:46 pm
content: Delaware is a very popular State for incorporation, due to its corporation-management-friendly civil laws, but few corporations have their actual headquarters there.Commercial (common) law in the US is mostly done by the States.Due to the huge number of incorporations, the Delaware Court of Chancery is probably the most important US court for internal corporate disputes.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 10:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 09, 2025, 10:11:46 pmI used to read about how companies like to be registered in Delaware for its low taxes. From what I read recently, about the Tesla case and some other dealings, that is not the case. There are other states with similarly attractive tax rates, but Delaware's courts have a long reputation for consistent ruling, so companies know where they stand. Suddenly one judge had changed that, and the only person who can fix it is Elon Musk himself, by appealing the decision, and letting other judges in Delaware sort the mess out. Apparently he won't play ball, and is the only one with standing to complain.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 11:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 09, 2025, 10:24:54 pmThis was a very complicated case. A Delaware court decision on a subsequent issue about attorney's fees has a long summary of the case and its history:https://courts.delaware.gov/Opinions/Download.aspx?id=372420As I understand it, the court ruled with the plaintiff that Musk, as a "controlling stockholder" had a fiduciary responsibility to the other stockholders, and considered that in regard to precedents.Warning: the decision is 103 pages of double-spaced typescript, much longer than any soundbite or social-media post.Naturally, Mr Musk was not happy with the decision, so his reactions must be understood in the context of his personal humongous loss of money.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 11:41:10 pm
content: Let me interject something here to maybe change the trajectory of this thread a bit:I think the question weshouldbe asking here is:Must we compete with China?I'm not at all convinced that we must. This is not, or doesn't have to be, a zero-sum situation.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:01:34 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 09, 2025, 11:41:10 pmI think we must, yes. Originally we didn’t compete - we knowingly outsourced our manufacturing to China, while we continued with the other stuff: R&D, market research, product design, development and prototyping, sales, support, etc. Thus there was no competition - China just took over something we didn’t want to do.But now it is different; China is moving into those areas we kept for ourselves. Now they are identifying market opportunities, designing, manufacturing and selling products without any help from "us". In other words, yes, they are now competing with us in most of the stages of the product lifecycle.If we want to continue in the field of products, then clearly we must and will be competing with China. The only way we can avoid competing with them is to pull out of products altogether and focus our economy on services. Luckily China isn't doing very much in that space - I hope it lasts.There is one grain of comfort. China needs the West to buy its products; therefore it is not in China's interest to destroy our economies. I think China will manage that delicate balance very carefully.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:08:55 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 10, 2025, 12:01:34 amWell, at the risk of getting deep into the weeds here, I don't see things that way.If we (meaning "the West") continue developing technologies and products, as I think everyone would agree that we should, does that mean that we have to be in competition with China?What if we just proceed with our best efforts in those areas, and let our successes reap rewards for us--without constantly looking over our shoulder and obsessing over whether "they" (China) are ahead of or behind us by so many lengths on the racetrack?I know this sounds terribly naive to some folks, but I really believe that this doesn't have to be a competition.In fact, it could be a synergistic relationship--if both of us, the "west" and China, drop this stupid fucking schoolyard-bully mentality and just focus on what each of us is capable of.In other words, cooperation.Oh, no, can't have any of that: dontcha know we're going to war with Chiner? Everyone says we are ...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:28:16 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 10, 2025, 12:01:34 amOriginally you did compete, you just didn't realise it. Every part of Asia which has become affluent since the second world war did so by doing the shitiest of sweat shop work, living as cheaply as possible, and ploughing every available resource into a better future. Education being the highest priority, and developing industrial skills second.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 02:45:08 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 10, 2025, 12:08:55 amIf a company in the USA makes a car, and a company in China makes a similar car, and a customer is free to purchase either one, then this is pretty much the definition of competition. The car manufacturers have to compete on price, features, style, reliability, performances, and a host of other factors. We could cooperate if the USA manufacturer agreed to only make dump trucks, and the Chinese company agreed to only make bulldozers, but why would anyone choose to do that?Or, closer to home, JLCPCB competes against a number of PCB fab/assy shops here in the USA. I know a few people here in the USA that still use local shops for this, but most have shifted their low-volume (and I assume high-volume) work to China. Competition. How do you turn that into cooperation?It doesn't have to be cut-throat unethical competition, but competition it is.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:25:49 am
content: Well, of course you're correct about competition; any time there are two manufacturers of the same product there is inherently competition.But even so, cooperation within competition is possible. Case in point: up until 2010, NUMMI (New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc.) existed as a joint venture in Fremont, California between Toyota, a Japanese auto company and the American company General Motors. (Now it's one of Elon Musk's Tesla plants.)And even if such joint ventures don't exist, there's still plenty of market available for both Chinese and American (or European or South American or Australian) products to be made without a death-spiral race to the bottom. JLCPCB and other fabs can coexist; their existence isn't necessarily mutually exclusive.

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 07:37:10 am
content: Living Walking Dead

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 12:01:02 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 10, 2025, 03:25:49 amWell, of course: companies can compete in some areas and co-operate in others. Sharing engines and body platforms has been commonplace in the car industry for many years. But competition still exists in the showrooms.Quote from: Analog Kid on February 10, 2025, 03:25:49 amBut as soon as a manufacturer or supplier moves into your space and offers your customers a product or service, they are competing with you. Maybe it will result in a death-spiral, maybe not. But at the moment China is moving into parts of the product lifecycle that we originally had kept for ourselves, so we are competing with them.Capitalism is dynamic. By that I mean that companies don't just compete on price - they can compete on innovation. So a Western company might be in competition with a Chinese company, but the Western company might well be able to survive and thrive if it can continually innovate (the Chinese company ditto). If a Western company can't hold its own, then yes, it'll die off.So we do have to compete with China. That doesn't mean we will automatically fail - the dynamics might last years or decades (for example, JCB has been in competition with Chinese and Japanese heavy plant manufacturers for decades, and it is still there).

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 01:04:01 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 09, 2025, 11:41:10 pmAs long as dollar is valued inside USA as inside USA can accept it is not a must.What USA owes is dollars, so that is not a problem.But finally deficit will eat the prosperity.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 01:13:12 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 10, 2025, 12:01:02 pmCompetition is NOT the opposite of cooperation. Throughout our history we have competed THROUGH cooperation. That's what teamwork is all about. Is a soccer player any less competitive than a tennis player? One doesn't need cooperation, and one very much needs cooperation. This has no impact on their level of competitiveness. A soccer team actually becomes more competitive the tighter the cooperation between its members.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 01:55:45 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 10, 2025, 01:13:12 pmUh. One may think that the competition here would be between different teams rather than between members of the same team, but hey. Sure there can be some amount of competition between team members too, but I would compare competition between China and say, the US more with the former case than the latter. If parallels like this make sense.