Boat anchors in the era of cheap electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 12:32:26 am
content: What are peoples views on boat anchors in this era of cheap "disposable" equipment? I was looking at getting an older dds func gen (I already own 2 analog Waveteks from the 60s/70s) when I saw that better spec'd Chinese devices were available for new at way less money. Factor in the cost of shipping an anchor and taking the chance on getting a dud or near dud and it becomes pointless. I love my older equipment for its ease of repair, craftsmanship and design but they are bulky and take up 5 times the space.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 01:41:14 am
content: There are no one size fits all answers. Have you got the space to store them? Time to repair them? The desire to repair them. Do you use them enough to make the boat anchors worthwhile?If you own 2 and want to buy another are you a collector? That's fine by me.Could you clear out the ones you have and replace it with a "better spec'd" contemporary device just for the use of it?It's personal. I'm burdened by clutter and am in what is hopefully a final de-clutter phase. Are you in denial or on the cusp of your own clearout?I'd suggest stepping back from the precipice of more acquisitions until asking questions like this one isn't one you'd need or think to ask.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 01:51:39 am
content: Much as I have well over a dozen plus bits of older gear earlier this year I decided this was the item that simply didn't make sense to go old. I was looking specifically at HP 19" options and the $ for limited features and frequency range of the older gear simply doesn't work in this instance. So to replace my Feelcrud 6600 (I was lucky mine kept working) I in the end went for a Siglent 2042X but there isn't a lot in it with some of the other options and brands. Different maybe if you are looking at the RF end but for a general purpose Generator go new.For a lot of the other bits of gear, PS, Multi & Frequency meters and other Cal gear the older gear makes a lot of sense and in most cases you get better spec for less $ than buying new.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 02:16:26 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 04, 2019, 01:41:14 amI collect two series of test equipment. Keithley brown era and Power Designs PSUs. Only as a "found cheap" basis, however. I'll rent a warehouse if need be to store those items ;-) Other things I'm more pragmatic about. The earlier func gens were very cheap and were needed at the time but I would have no problem selling them if I can find a suitable device that replicates their functions.My question is really one of cost/benefit but there are other layers around the issue like interface, reliability, ease of repair, etc. I do like a good repair challenge as well but I'm not for throwing away $300 on a broken unit to buy a $250 new one that performs better. Maybe that suggests most boat anchors are overpriced these days as they become more rare and people start collections.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 02:28:48 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on October 04, 2019, 01:51:39 amYeah, my son has the FY6600 too and I modded it to a grounded power plug/supply. No way I would want that headache again seeing what others are going through. You're probably correct that this is one of the few categories of equipment that just doesn't stand up to the test of time. Signal and wave gens seem to have moved forward comparatively fast while 6 digit bench DMMs from the 80's still compare well as do older PSs. Scopes can be found for 10% of the modern low-end prices even if they don't have all the bells and whistles but these too may fall into the same category as sig gens given the recent crop of Chinese scopes and how far they have come.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 02:32:43 am
content: Quote from: don.r on October 04, 2019, 02:16:26 amI do own several pieces of boat anchor T&M equipments, regarding the ease or repair, this aspect will deteriorate through time as the replacement components (decent ones) are getting harder and harder to source, not to mention unique unobtanium parts.Not sure the current state, as through hole discrete components are still available, but pretty sure the scene will not be getting better say for next 5 or 10 years ahead.The cost/benefit is shrinking, and quite fast imo.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 05:46:20 am
content: Quote from: don.r on October 04, 2019, 02:16:26 amNothing wrong with collecting. The world needs collectors. I once saw a TV show where someone was collecting bits of pink plastic. Detritus found all over the ground. It might have been a toothbrush, a cap for a pen a keychain tag anything, a straw. You wouldn't think it but the collection told an interesting story. One that anthropologists will find invaluable in years to come.Just have a theme and a story to bind the collection and separate it from a hoard of junk.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 06:31:43 am
content: QuoteDepends. Some times boat anchors from 40 years ago have better or comparable specs to current cheap and small ones.Sometimes the boat anchors are just cheap - I picked up my fist 6.5 digit DMM ( HP 3455A ) for less than 150 EUR, the device was bang on despite decades of not being adjusted/calibrated and served perfectly. My Solartron 7071 cost 200 EUR, bang on as well. I also saw similar gear being sold pretty cheaply, because it was old. It is still perfectly useful decades later.But you are right, the gap between top of the line 40 years* old boat anchor bartered on a flea market and a cheap box from ebay is closing fast. Already, I see no point in even looking at an analog scope (aside from very niche areas) given the performance of even the bottom of the line units (there are opinions to the contrary, to which I say: Enjoy.).* - 40 years for some areas, 20 years for others, depends, varies greatly according to the device.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 12:13:58 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 04, 2019, 05:46:20 amOddly enough the collection is, indeed, separate from my other equipment but still in use.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 12:33:43 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on October 04, 2019, 06:31:43 amA $50 analog scope makes a cheap starter unit for budget hobbyists but even here the low end digitals are coming. $50 USB scopes are easy to find new.

author: rastro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 11:20:07 pm
content: About the only test gear I bought new is my Rigol DS2072A, DE-5000, MiniPro TL866, and ebay component tester - all good bang for the buck.However, the rest (majority) of my equipment is solid working and reliable HP, Keithley, R&S, and Stanford Research gear. I do stay away from old Tektronix and Wavetech...You pays your money, you takes your choice...rastro

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 01:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: rastro on October 05, 2019, 11:20:07 pmI use my TL866 and especially my component tester a lot. I think its the best $10 I ever spent on test equipment. Why stay away from Tek and Wavetek? Reliability? Value? Repairability? Performance?

author: rastro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 03:34:55 pm
content: The eBay component tester is my first choice when troubleshooting components. Even after 3 or 4 years I am still impressed with how much usability is wrung out of basically an Arduino with a few added components. IMHO it is a master stroke of pragmatic engineering. I think I paid $7.50 with case and delivery included for my last one.I don't have anything fundamentally against Tektronix or Wavetech. I guess I've become a bit of an HP fanboy - particularly late 60's - 80's era. Generally speaking the inside layout, fit/finish, and clear documentation/procedures of HP in it's heyday seems at a higher level then the aforementioned. Since HP/Agilent covers most of the spectrum of instruments types, I tend to chose HP it over the other brands. I did choose a New Rigol a general purpose o-scope over both Tektronix and HP - you just can't beat the value. And it is nice not having to grunt when you move a Rigol digital scope. I think Tektronix generally had better o-scopes than HP for the same era models.I also favor older Keithleys. There's deals to be had on the used market and built quality is pretty decent with documentation generally available. I make an exception with the K617 because it's hard to find one working at it's most sensitive level due one or more high impedance relays having degraded. It's not insurmountable to fix but it comparable replacements are costly & hard to source. Work for a viable solution is ongoing on another eevblog thread.I own older R&S RF equipment, it's built very well also. However there is less selection on the used market (good deals) and it's harder to find documentation and assistance.Stanford Research has some interesting offerings. I only dipped my foot lightly in those waters. They are "fairly" reliable; but you're pretty much on you own if you need help/parts. I contacted SRS looking to purchase a mains transformer and first thing they want to establish is the units S/N and if you are the original register owner. If you do not match their records you get bottom-feeder service (no soup for you). I think the fellow on "The Signal Path" conveyed similar sentiment.Wow, this response when longer than I planned...This is just my general feeling for buying some of the older brands.rastro

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 03:56:15 pm
content: Quote from: rastro on October 06, 2019, 03:34:55 pmThanks for the thoughts. I see a bright future for small mcu-based open source devices, like the AR488 GPIB Arduino adapter. I have a Keithley 614 and these devices are worth there weight in gold when you need them. Most expensive part was building a cable for it since it is an original 2 prong triax. Keithley gear is also fairly easy to work on and has standard parts (except for the front end magic). I just finished a repair on a K705 that needed a few simple passives and a new GPIB controller ($5) and a K175A that needed a new input buffer op amp ($1). As I said earlier, I love a bit of a repair challenge but not if it involves finding a parts unit with a working 144pin BGA that needs to be replaced! I have a couple of Tek analog scopes and I noticed they are full of unobtainium, just like my HP 54622D MSO. Luckily they appear to be reliable... touch wood. The weight and space issue is also there with this older equipment although the HP MSO is noticeably lighter and smaller than the Tek scopes. One thing I do like about boat anchors is the better ones tend to remain in cal a long time. Not sure if the newer cheap stuff will be as consistent. The one (other) thing I need that I haven't found reasonably priced in either form is a spectrum analyzer.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 05:08:35 pm
content: There are boat anchors you won't get an equivalent new test equipment at an afordable price: for example spectrum analyzer.OK. You can get a HackRF which will be able to show the spectrum up to 6GHz, but in all other aspects it will not hold against any vintage spectrum analyzer from HP/Agilent/Keysight, Anritsu, Advantest or Rohde&Schwarz. Remember that these devices original cost the equivalent of a 5 or 6 digit price in today's money.Being able to purchase them for 500-5.000 Euro is a mighty good deal and while a modern spectrum analyzer like the Siglent SSA3021X is amazing for its price (around 1.500 Euro), my HP 8594X outperforms it in some aspects: for example in sweep rate. It is debatable if for up to 2-3GHz you should buy a HP859x or an SSA3021X (I would recommend the SSA3021X for the big screen, software features and warranty).But there is simply no alternative to a boat anchor if you need i.e. a spectrum analyzer up to 20GHz or 40GHz. But: they won't come cheap, which is why my SSA's only go up to 3.2GHz. Still hoping to one day getting one up to 20GHz.Anyway, this was just an example on why some boat anchors can still be justified...Regards,Vitor

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 05:46:35 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on October 06, 2019, 05:08:35 pmI wouldn't call my >20GHz HP8562b or Tek 492ap "boat anchors" - they are like an overweight Tek 485They were both <$350There are other examples, e.g. 8 digit DVMs or 7 decade KVDs, or some other voltnut stuff.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 05:52:33 pm
content: I think there are some categories where new wins over old boat anchors (e.g. scopes, function generators).There are other categories where it may be close depending on what you find most important, for example a used HP/Agilent 34401A or HP 3456A DMM will likely be more accurate than a new DMM for a similar price, but won't have a graphic LCD to do trend plots. Same with power supplies and spectrum analyzers.And there are categories where there are no cheap modern replacements, either because it is too niche or too hard. Electrometers and Source Measure Units come to mind. Your choice is either an old Keithley/HP/Yokogawa boat anchor, or a smaller, modern unit from the same manufacturer at 10x-100x the cost. Same with most of the stuff volt nuts use.So your response to this question will depend on how much equipment from each of these categories you use.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 06:38:20 pm
content: I like both. And the fight line between them is a single factor, the small size and light weight of new units vs the stability that comes from the "boat anchor"I have inumerable times jerked one of the light instruments over on its face so it can't be read, or worse off the shelf or bench as I moved a test lead just a little bit further to get at a test point from an odd angle. The boat anchors don't move. But then when you have to move them it is a PITA, both because of how much space you have to clear and the weight.My answer is both, with the best one to use varying from job to job.

author: rastro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 07:21:14 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 06, 2019, 06:38:20 pmHow true. Just now, I glanced over to my HP 8665B and I could start to feel my knees buckle !!!BTW: That dent was there when I got it...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 08:48:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 06, 2019, 05:46:35 pmYou can get lucky if you hunt around. I have a real giant boatanchor Ailtech 707 (22GHz) for $50 + $70 for a power cord (some parts are not cheap!), got it off of the back of a truck all beat to hell (missing bottom, massive scratches in faceplate around the controls, worn out knob setscrews, bad CRT anode connector, dirty controls and connections, bad resistors and caps), but hey, still a bargain for a fixer-upper.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 06:06:12 am
content: It all depends on what kind of equipment it is and what specs are important to you.Some test equipment has taken massive leaps in performance and cost with the newly available technology, while others have barely changed in 20 years. Its mostly things that involve digital that have made big jumps. So things like digital scopes, DDS signal generators, real time spectrum analyzers etc...On the other hand things that don't involve a lot of digital such as PSUs, DMMs, SMUs, classic spectrum analyzers, RF synthesizers, network analyzers etc... Those have only slightly improved in performance from the old days so most of the difference from the old boat anchors is that they are smaller, lighter, cheaper(when brand new) and offer a fancy modern UI with color LCDs, better connectivity with USB or Ethernet... etc So if that's not important for you then you can get a great bargain by getting a high quality well performing boatnahcor.Sure id love to have all brand new equipment in the lab, but i don't have the budget for that.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 07:24:02 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 06, 2019, 08:48:39 pmYou need both luck and patience!It took a couple of years scanning local auctions to find my HP8562b. I couldn't see it before buying it, unfortunately. If I had I would have found it was from an insolvency sale, and I could have got another for the same price, plus a lot of other RF goodies. Oh well!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 07:31:46 am
content: Quote from: Berni on October 07, 2019, 06:06:12 amThe last 30 years has mainly been a steady progression of smaller-faster-cheaper; there have been relatively few step changes. One step change is the nanopower circuits, another is ADC and DAC performance.QuoteOne counterexample is that I picked up an eval board for an lmx2594 15GHz signal generator chip. It shows that there are 30kHz spurs in my HP8562b; I must get around to looking at its PSU caps sometimeQuoteThe budget is the key point.The new scope I would like to buy always seems to cost a years salary; that started with the Tek 465

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 09:37:08 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 07, 2019, 07:31:46 amMy HP 8566B still has a few dB dip in its frequency response at around i think 12GHz. The last time i tried to fix it i couldn't track down the reason for it and now i don't want to drag the 50kg boatanchor out of the rack again so its still there, works fine otherwise tho. Very capable spectrum analyzer despite its ageQuote from: tggzzz on October 07, 2019, 07:31:46 amIndeed a good scope will always cost good money. Tho to be honest the really fancy scopes are more often a "want" than a "need"... but even a decent scope still runs a few grand.Tho i have no idea why a decent SMU is so gosh darn expensive even when old and used.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 10:16:25 am
content: Quote from: Berni on October 07, 2019, 09:37:08 amAlotof cables have a lossy mode in the 10-12 GHz region, for whatever reason. What did you use to connect the test source to the RF input?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 10:17:39 am
content: Quote from: Berni on October 07, 2019, 09:37:08 amExactly. See my .sig

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 10:20:15 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on October 07, 2019, 10:16:25 amIs that partly a function of the connectors and/or connections?

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 12:43:11 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on October 07, 2019, 10:16:25 amI forgot what cable exactly it was but it was most likely a hefty 3.5mm Gore cable. The source provided by a Gigatronics 7200 synthesizer to 20GHz and checked on the end of a cable using HP crystal detector.I always thought cables just attenuate more and more as you go up in frequency. I did try to measure a meter of regular crappy RG-178 coax to 20GHz just for fun and as expected it becomes a very good attenuator at 10GHz and above. Is it possible to get a dip in just one frequency band with some cables? (Apart from the usual impedance mismatch and reflection stuff)Quote from: tggzzz on October 07, 2019, 10:17:39 amYeah that is a good analogy from gliding (I happen to work at a place that makes instruments for gliders). But i suppose you can now drag it on to real time spectrum analyzers where more span (aka real time bandwith) does cost lots of money too. In general skill can be used to get around the need for a lot of fancy expensive gear, but there is a certain satisfaction to be felt when twiddling the knobs of a big boatanchor that at some point cost someone the equivalent of a nice sports car.I did recently make another stray into cheap crappy Chinese test equipment with this thing:https://www.banggood.com/Original-NanoVNA-Vector-Network-Analyzer-HF-VHF-UHF-Antenna-Analyzer-Standing-Wave-Frequency-Range-50KHz-900MHz-Touch-Screen-p-1570540.html?rmmds=search&cur_warehouse=CNIts probably crap for fur 35 USD its worth a short and people on YouTube seam to not complain about it.I'm still waiting for it to get here so i can go compare it to a real HP boatanchor network analyzer at work.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 03:53:06 pm
content: Quote*vomits in mouth a bit*That thing looks like a highschooler's Arduino project and probably isn't far from it.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 04:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 07, 2019, 03:53:06 pmSome reports of poor construction (surprise, surprise, surprise) but apparently it does what it claims to do. I would like to see a 5GHz model though. Having said that its better than the VNA I have now... none. Hopefully something similar for spectrum analysis will come along.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 05:16:04 pm
content: I don't expect it to be an amazing VNA, but for 35 bucks im willing to take a gamble.I can verify its operation and accuracy against known good RF gear so i will be able to tell if its working well or not. Might make a thread on here if i come up with any interesting findings. Mostly my excuse for it is that a cheap chinese VNA is still better than no VNA at all, as i have not yet been able to score a good bargain on a proper boatanchor network analyzer.I have been surprised before by the chinese. For example the 3 terminal transistor/device testers that are all over ebay are actually really nice as they not only pretty reliably test all sorts of transistors but also measure things like capacitance, inductance and ESR down to some pretty low values.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 08:53:53 pm
content: There already is a thread on this VNA. The conclusion - damn good for $35, unless you get one of the bad knock offs or not infrequent lemons.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 11:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on October 07, 2019, 12:43:11 pmThe experience I had was with an 8566B as well. It came from eBay with a seriously screwed-up set of YTX trimmer adjustments, so I did a "quick and dirty" YTX calibration with an 86290B-H08 sweeper. I never was able to get it perfect at the end of band 1, for whatever reason, but it was technically in-spec or very close to it. The actual 2-22 GHz response ended up looking like this:This was with a 2-meter length of FSJ4-50B Heliax. This stuff is rated to10200 MHz. They appear to mean it, because the suckout near 11-12 GHz was caused by the cable.I wasn't using a divider/detector for power leveling in this case, so I didn't expect great results beyond 10 GHz. But it did come as a surprise when the cable turned out to be halfway-decent all the way to 22 GHz except for that weird high-Q mode just below 12 GHz.This isn't the only cable I've seen behave this way, but it stuck in my mind because Heliax is no one's idea of crappy cable.Edit: found the same hunk of cable from 2006 and swept it more or less properly:

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2019, 06:05:41 am
content: Hmm i never seen that, maybe the low loss heliax cable is more prone to some sort of resonance since low loss is a requirement for high QIn my HP 8566B i had the jump happen right at a point where the analyzer switches bands into the next harmonic mixer mode so i knew its the analyzers fault. I thought it just needed the trimmers for that adjusted but i couldn't get enough adjustment range to get it quite fully flat. I thought something else is wrong and after probing all over that area i couldn't find anything. Someone else already tried to fix this before me as i found a missing screw on the cover to get to that board. The thing is quite the complex beast inside.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2019, 01:16:15 am
content: Luckily you get to deal with flexible RF cables inside. My ancient beast is full of annoying rigid RF conduit that I'm super scared of bending.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2019, 01:41:22 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 07, 2019, 03:53:06 pmWrong.It's been compared to expensive VNAs and compares very well for a $50 unit. I have one and it works amazingly well. Suggest you try it before vomiting again.

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2019, 01:54:20 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on October 06, 2019, 05:08:35 pmI haven't tried to price it, but I have a 30-yo HP boat anchor-ish frequency synthesizer, with a resolution of uHz at 33 kHz. When driven by a GPS-disciplined Rubidium reference, the boat anchor's output frequency varies only by +/- 10 nHz. Just what I need for an upcoming metrology project.