Robotics/education kit for 13 year old recommendation? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 09:15:41 pm
content: My nephew just got back from engineering camp where he built his first electronics project, a blinking led roulette game on a breadboard. His birthday is on Tuesday and I'm wondering what you guys would suggest as a kit I could get him to build. Any good robotics or similar projects he can build? He's obviously not going to be able to build anything from a junk box of parts without instructions. It needs to be a beginner project, hopefully and educational but fun one.Any suggestions or recommendations? What would you get a 13 year old with an interest in engineering and electronics as a birthday gift?

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 09:44:47 pm
content: Lego mindstorm

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 09:47:45 pm
content: For robotics, Lego Mindstorms is very good. I taught robotics for a while with them and I found my students didn't want to packup at the end of the lesson!They are programmed with a simplified version of LabView. Building may be a bit too simple in that you just plug bits together and they do eat batteries so a rechargeable set might be sensible.Some have programmed them to do quite spectacular things such as solving Rubik's cube (including turning the actual cube) e.g.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 12:23:15 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on July 13, 2013, 09:47:45 pmif you are talking Lego Mindstorm SW that is bundled with it, its shit. Try Robolab its alot better, though still graphical flowchart programming from some professional point of view is still a little bit shitty. There's thirsd party C IDE for it, i cant recall (try google lego mindsotrm C/C++) since we are not allowed to use it for the school competition. if we are allowed, i'll kiss the LabView IDE bye bye.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 12:34:09 pm
content: Yes, Lego Mindstorms are the way to go. In fact, they are the main reason I'm currently pursuing a career in electrical engineering. I wasn't satisfied with the variety of sensors that Lego offered, so I decided to make my own. I wasn't very successful at doing so, but I got interested in designing circuits.I took up programming the same way: The Mindstorms brick has bluetooth and I wanted to control it with my computer and phone. I found C# libraries for the NXT on the internet and started to learn programming. It was so awesome to press keys on my computer or phone and see the robot react to that. I felt like a magician when the things just worked like that.This was, without doubt, the best toy I ever had. It ain't cheap, but it's worth every cent that you are paying.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 01:21:46 pm
content: How about an Arduino too?

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 01:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 14, 2013, 12:23:15 pmI think that is a little harsh. The main issue I had is that of timing - processes happen in parallel and the software is not really geared for dealing with synchronization and race conditions. Even something as simple as rotating to face a light sometimes went wrong in that the motors would over rotate. One of my students was building a wall following robot and he had to calibrate to allow for inaccuracies. But some of this was down to the fact that ultrasonic distance measurement is not going to be super accurate anyway.For a general introduction the software works ok and as it is a cut-down version of LabView it is probably educational to use it at least to start.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 01:32:48 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on July 14, 2013, 01:21:46 pmThe advantage that Lego Mindstorms has is that it works at lots of levels. You can build a simple robot from the instruction book straight away and see it working but you can then go on to adding advanced stuff.I'm not an expert on Arduino but I guess you need to do quite a bit more before you have a working system, and it is not as easy to rip apart and rebuild.

author: MasterOfNone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 01:36:07 pm
content: It's not a project but base on other threads I’ve seen here, I would also consider the Analog Discovery. You seem to get a Dual Channel Scope, +/-5V to power simple projects, 2 Channel Arbitrary Waveform Generator and a 16 channel logic analyser. Some here really seem to like it, so to get started in electronics all he would need is a breadboard, some components and a beginners book.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 03:30:24 pm
content: Boriiiiing analog discovery is boooooring

author: MasterOfNone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 03:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on July 14, 2013, 03:30:24 pmYeah but isn’t all test equipment a bit boring, the fun part is actually building things. But in electronics building things that work without test equipment is difficult. So if you find electronics interesting and would like to build things that work, it’s not a bad idea to have form of test equipment. I wasn’t suggesting he should buy it without some breadboard and components etc. And to make things clear I’m only going off information I’ve seen on this forum about Analog Discovery, I’ve not used it myself.Lego Mindstorm looks good and exciting, but wasn’t sure if it would help a upcoming engineer learn about electronics.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 04:45:12 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on July 14, 2013, 01:29:10 pmrethinking it. i have to agree from some (educational) perpective. for a totally newbees begineers, the said SW is totally fine, so i apologize to those communities. arduino? i made the attempt (just before i joined eevblog) to emulate lego mechanism by building arduino+motors+sensories from raw steels. well, my view is that i dont recommend it for 13yrs old or younger community. you can, for highly keen energetic highly motivated hard cored and rich type kids. its the next level of building a real robot i guess, the next step is you need more money and PhD grade knowledge. even the cost of building arduino system from raw is questionable. In the end, lego mindstorm is the "bang for buck" you can get at fastest development pace and largest functionalities and flexibility.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:29:27 am
content: Thanks guys for the great suggestions! Asking you was definitely the right choice.Keeping in mind this is a 13 year old boy who's only electronics experience so far is making a dozen LEDs blink on a breadboard it might be a little early for self directed design. I thought about Arduino and RPi starter kits but what does that really get him? I wanted something he would want to build because of the thing he gets when he's done, without much in the way of test gear and tools he hasn't got, and to have a really positive experience. I'm not sure dropping him in the deep end to sink or swim is a good way to nurture his budding interest in electronics.For me the ideal outcome would be for him to come back to me and say he really needs an oscilloscope and other gear so he can do advanced customization of the robot, adding sensors, adding comms, adding some smarts, whatever. That is money well spent and Mindstorms looks like just the thing to sink the hook.He can learn the mechanics, learn to think like an engineer, solve problems, experiment, customize and all the while having a wicked cool toy to fascinate him. It's the toy I wish I got when I was 13, hell it's the toy I wish I got when I was 45! It doesn't tie him into anything. There are Arduino shields which plug in and like someone said, he can learn C++ when the software tools don't allow him to do what he wants.Now, the only problem is finding one!!! Even lego.com says they are sold out of the NXT 2.0 kit.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:38:57 am
content: Quote from: jpb on July 14, 2013, 01:32:48 pmYou've nailed exactly what I'm looking for. I don't want him to fail at this early stage. I want him to fall in love with engineering and electronics. This thing should seal the deal.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:50:41 am
content: So the NXT2.0 is done and the EV3 comes out this fall.I guess I'll wait till the EV3 is released, maybe make it a Christmas present.

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:08:03 am
content: Supposedly the release date is going to be Aug. 1. (According toWikipedia.) Just a couple of weeks away.

author: tcbetka
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:24:03 am
content: I just got the Parallax BOE Shield for Arduino a couple weeks ago, and have been having a ball with it. It's C/C++-based, but the Arduino library is very straightforward. They do sell the kit with a BASIC-style programming language as well, and I've seen MANY code examples for that version. There are certainly examples of Arduino-related code out there, but not as many as for the versions that feature a BASIC-style programming language.It's hard to go wrong with the Parallax stuff, as far as I can tell. Although I've never worked with the Lego product personally, I have seen threads where people spoke quite highly of those kits. About the only knock I've seen on it is that some have said it's very...well..."Lego-like." If that's what you're looking for, then that may be exactly what you've been looking for. However you should at least check out the Parallax stuff on their website, for comparison. They have all kinds of different models--many of which I wasn't fully aware of until after I bought the BOE-Bot. But I wanted an Arduino-based unit, so I'm very happy that I went the way I did.TB

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 01:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: tcbetka on July 15, 2013, 05:24:03 amthats the point actually, i dont see it as a "knock". it extends the idea of "Lego" into programmable toy. if i have to a find a knock in it, its the "very little involvement of ee" during the mindstorming. as we already aware, lego system harnesses and more towards kids' "Mechanical" creativity, only the NXT extended the creativity into "programming", which i believe a very good intro to embedded mCU programming, or PC software programming in general. even though very little involvement in ee, i dont see it as big problem since one can always extend the functionality such as hacking into serial comm with sensor or motor and building up a simple add-on device such as blinking led, diy motor etc (with care not to damage the NXT core IOs)... i can talk more but i'm too lazy for it i'll stop herefor the price of Parallax or Arduino setup that can only do 1 thing, i still prefer the NXT system, even though its 3-4X the price, it can do many things, the only limitation is your Mechanical Imagination Ability or Creativity. WMMV.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 08:19:38 pm
content: I want the kid to know why he is learning trigonometry and algebra and calculus and physics and I'd like him to want to learn those things, not because someone told him to memorize some useless information he'll never use again, because he wants to use them to build something cool.There is no shame in being a mechanical engineer. We all know that EE's add the cool but mech's have their uses tooI have no idea what the kid is going to fall in love with. As long as it's building shit out of science, I'm happy.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 09:46:17 pm
content: If its a very advanced 13 year old theParallaxofferings might be whats needed for that intellectual appetite.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 10:57:30 pm
content: I grew up using both lego mindstorms at school clubs and using arduino at home. IMHO lego mindstorms is a waste of your time to learn, If your kid already has played with legos he is already an engineer.Just make sure he has a multimeter and a healthy collection of parts, he will eventually work through it. I believe that programming can't be taught as a game, flow charts and all.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 11:15:26 pm
content: On the topic of lego, there is software on the lego site that lets you create stuff using all the available lego parts, including mindstorm.Free download:http://ldd.lego.com/

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 11:20:22 pm
content: Quote from: smashedProton on July 15, 2013, 10:57:30 pmCouldn't disagree more.I have played a lot with Lego Technic prior to buying my first Mindstorms set, and there is just no comparison. There is so much more to learn from Mindstorms than just plain Technic.Arduino, on the other hand, really is a waste of time.But that's just MY opinion.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 04:50:02 am
content: Hmmm, paying a premium to learn a robotics platform that is so closed that you can't make anything worth building on... With a cheap arduino you can make a robot easily, and in equal caliber to a nxt robot. Plus you learn real building techniques (hot glue). You can actually be creative. One of the first things I made was a coilgun tank. It's the coolest thing ever.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 11:38:39 am
content: Quote from: smashedProton on July 16, 2013, 04:50:02 amif you mind breaking it down to all and each parts. servos, motors, sensors, bearings + raw metals, gears, tooling etc, not to mention knowledges needed to assemble into functional robotics "psychomotor" similar to whats capable with nxt, you'll see the cost is unjustifyable, but thats just me, i'm not sure what kind of robot you are talking about.

author: tcbetka
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 02:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: smashedProton on July 16, 2013, 04:50:02 amThat's pretty much why I went with the Arduino actually. I plan to use the Arduino devices/libraries for other projects in my work, so it made complete sense to get as much experience with it as possible. There is so much that had been done with the libraries that you can use for seemingly anything you need to do, so the more experience I could get with Arduino stuff...the better. At least that's the way I looked at it.TB

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 09:22:21 pm
content: You might want to look at Grove on seeed studio site. Seems like a low cost way to get into electronics and robotics.Basically like arduino shields only smaller modules and not platform specific.http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/grove-t-3.html?ref=top