3 cent MCU - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 11:57:22 pm
content: Just stumbled on this browsing lcsc ( JLC's component store)Under 3 cents 100xhttps://lcsc.com/product-detail/PADAUK_PADAUK-Tech-PMS150C_C129127.htmlEnglish data here :http://www.padauk.com.tw/upload/doc/PMS150C%20datasheet%20V004_EN_20180124.pdf

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 12:14:41 am
content: Incredible! Basically the cost of a resistor!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 12:20:22 am
content: Interesting device, Its built in a 180nm process, so the core is running way below the 5.5V maximum specified Vcc. That means it must have an internal regulator (which is a die hog), and its managing to operate that with no external pin for a cap.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 12:21:24 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 10, 2018, 12:14:41 amGee, your resistors are expensive.

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 12:24:40 am
content: From the PMS150C-U06 thread, soFPG ordered the PADAUK ICE for these chips back in April. I wonder if they ever did anything with it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 01:17:34 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2018, 12:21:24 amWell that's the average cost I get from most distributors for decent quality resistors unless I order in quantities above 1000 or so!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 01:51:08 am
content: That is crazy cheap! - for the price of one high end Xeon, you can buy a number approaching a hundred thousand of these... just LOL...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 05:15:43 am
content: Program Memory Size... 1KW... right.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 05:58:10 am
content: Sadly It's OTP

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:52:07 am
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on October 10, 2018, 05:58:10 amIt's dead cheap. You can afford to waste a few.I'd definitely want to test things in an emulator before I burned them though! Either on a desktop PC, or else on another microcontroller. The thing is only 16 MHz and six or eight pins, so it should be easy to emulate it (including timing) on a faster CPU. I'd convert its machine code to C and compile that to ARM/MIPS/RISC-V/xtensa native, with a busy-wait for the right clock cycle after each instruction. A 64 or 80 MHz CPU might just about be workable with a lot of care. A 256 or 320 MHz one would be cake.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:30:52 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 10, 2018, 05:15:43 am1 kilo words memory... That is plenty. The famous PIC16F84 had the same. It is overkill for a lot of applications, think of blinken litzen or child games.I got a similar quote for a reel of 34063 chips (4.1 cent), I think we are reaching the price of package here.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:36:55 am
content: i mean i thought 1 Kilo Watt, cant they find another shortcut for Word? for eg 1KWd?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:41:15 am
content: You can go to the moon on 1K....I regularly use the PIC10F, with 512 words, and there's room for my code to do, for example, bit-bashed serial receive at 250kbaud, gamma correction and PWM for 4 LEDs,and a bootloader, written mostly in C

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 08:04:56 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2018, 12:20:22 amThat may be connected with the big warnings about PSU sensitivity on the datasheets

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 08:36:25 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2018, 07:41:15 amthat is just a part from the story

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 08:41:14 am
content: I kind of want to see somebody build a large board that is just a matrix of these to do a complex task. Maybe bitcoin mining.It's crazy that they can make something that cheap though. Like just the materials alone let alone the actual process to make it do something.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 10:05:18 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 10, 2018, 07:36:55 amExpecting SI units, it would have been a Kelvin * Watt.W is fairly common for "word" and given the context, there is little chance for misunderstanding - unless, of course, the reader doesn't know what a "word" is when talking about memory. And if you don't know that, adding another d wouldn't probably help too much.

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 10:31:49 am
content: The main limitations that jumped out for me are that its max speed is 62 kHz (not MHz) and that it has only 64 bytes of ram! (And the B version, oddly, has 60. Anybody know what it uses the other four for, especially because it lacks a timer?)Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on October 10, 2018, 05:58:10 amThe English datasheet, in §1.2, says:Quotebut the Chinese datasheet, as translated by Google Translate*, has the wording:Quotewhich, to me, on first reading, suggested that it could use an external (rewritable) program memory. However, after having read the English version, I can read the Chinese wording to mean the same thing, so I'm guessing it doesn't actually support external program memory.*Just paste the PDF's URL into the Google Translate field and click Translate.Quote from: Siwastaja on October 10, 2018, 10:05:18 amIf I wasn't expecting a quantity of "words", I'd read KWd as kelvin-watt-day, which Wolfram|Alpha tells me is equivalent to 86.4 kilojoule-kelvins. (It also claims this to be a measurement of something it calls "entransy", though neither Wikipedia nor Wiktionary knows what that means.)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 11:03:35 am
content: Quote from: PointyOintment on October 10, 2018, 10:31:49 amErr, no, that's the frequency of the low power oscillator. The CPU can be clocked from the high power oscillator up to 8MHz.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 11:14:11 am
content: Quote from: PointyOintment on October 10, 2018, 10:31:49 amHow about this?https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/PIC10F200And it's way more expensive.Quote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 11:17:09 am
content: Not released yet:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 11:18:45 am
content: Quote from: PointyOintment on October 10, 2018, 10:31:49 amNo, it has a 16MHz internal oscillator with 8MHz and various other divisions available as the processor clock.The 62KHz is LP mode.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 11:23:10 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2018, 08:04:56 amThey have an app note on that which I show in my video.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 11:29:11 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 10, 2018, 05:15:43 amI did this project in under 1K

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 12:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2018, 07:41:15 amTotally agree, I've used (and still use) the PIC10F family for many applications. My most recent project used it for an RF powered single chip intelligent RFID tag, with just three external components (decoupling cap, coil and fixed tuning cap).You use the most appropriate part for the job at hand, taking into account the technical aspects as well as the knowledge and tools that you already have.Can it be any coincidence the pinout for the SOT23 bears resemblance to the PIC10F family, and similarly the pinout for the SOIC8 resembles that of the PIC12F and 8 pin PIC16F?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 01:46:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 10, 2018, 11:29:11 amthe 2nd time misunderstood so let me clarify, i wasnt complaining about the size, i was complaining the SI unit usedi have bunch of pic10f206 all right with "512W" i've made them some useful stuffs that i'm more than happy withenough troll now, since its persistent use in the datasheet, i know now its Kilo Word :|back to topic, i think if this even true, it must be something with low capital investment, like low cost of 2nd hand manufacturing facilities. labor cost, we know its super cheap in that communist governed country. the RnD maybe none, they just buy some template/blueprint/lithography whatever the name is from some company 10-50 years old design. so yeah maybe its possible in ChinaLand. i will concern most on reliability (0¢ QC?) since recently i bought a clone TC1 Transistor Tester with claimed "super anti disturbance" STC15W104 mcu in it from China but it turned out i got a fried FW chip at least thats what i think it is.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 02:53:13 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 10, 2018, 06:52:07 amOf course. Those MCUs are for very high-volume production and we are talking about 3 cents retail price! There's probably no way they could embed even 1K of Flash for that cost.The annoying point with this is not to waste parts but since there's apparently no way of running code from external memory, this should be very annoying during the development/debugging phase. Having to replace the chip for every software build? Sucks... So you should probably make some kind of dev board with an SO8 socket to be able to replace chips very quickly.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 03:02:14 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 10, 2018, 01:46:17 pmModern semiconductor vendor have very little capital investment beyond their mask sets. The investment is mostly by the companies running the fabs and the assembly and test facilities. These Padauk MCUs are in a 180nm process. Until very recently nobody was implementing low end MCUs in such a fine process. There are no old designs to pick up and run with cheaply. I presume Padauk have engineered these MCUs from the same process baseline as people who were making complex 180nm chips 10 years ago. Things like the toy and commercial gift markets provide opportunities for staggering numbers of small cheap MCUs. Re-engineering old low end 500nm MCUs for a 180nm process and bring substantial cost benefits if done right, and the volumes are certainly there. It sounds like they are hitting the same noise related stability problems most vendors had when they first tried making 180nm devices for a market that uses 1 and 2 layer PCBs. Luckiy for them, they have a huge potential market to serve which doesn't care too much about stability, as they learn what everyone else in the MCU world has been learning about robust fine geometry designs over the last several yearsPadauk is Taiwanese, not Chinese. Their costs, and general environment are little different from any European, American or Japanese vendor.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 03:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 10, 2018, 02:53:13 pmAt 180nm, 1k of flash or 1k of EPROM probably doesn't make a huge difference to the die area. What is key to keeping cost low is not putting a voltage pump on the die, so the flash can be self programming. I presume the programmer for this device applies a high voltage during the programming cycle. You might even find the device is actually flash based, and they just haven't provided the ability to erase the array.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 03:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 10, 2018, 02:53:13 pmNot annoying for any serious people. Buy in circuit emulator and develop as much as you want.https://www.yoycart.com/Product/568282464626/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 03:23:48 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2018, 03:02:14 pmI think you got a zero wrong here. You probably mean 18nm but I doubt they'll use such an advanced process for a very cheap microcontroller. It is more likely these are produced in an old (written-off) factory which can do a 180nm process.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 05:32:34 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 10, 2018, 06:52:07 amThis.Given that they're 8 bitters pretty much any half sane CORTEX-M should be capable of emulating one of them in realtime...and then you could add in watchpoints, breakpoints and all the other goodies you'd want for realworld development....Feels like going back 30 years but would be fun at $0.03! Personally I'd try and go the interpreter route so you can run the actual code on the debugger, rather than re-targetting.I've got some Bluepills laying around here somewhere...hmmm...emulating a 3c micro on a $2 micro with USB...such decadence, but oddly compelling.Anybody up for it with me?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 05:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: mubes on October 10, 2018, 05:32:34 pmLOL, real time in many cases ARM is much slower than 8 bitters. If you are doing computational heavy tasks, ARM certainly is faster. But if you need fastest response with minimum of computations, in many cases 8 bitters are much faster at the same clock. For real wold development you don't bother with something this stupid and just buy ICE for $100.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 10, 2018, 05:44:07 pmDo we actually know what the ICE can do other than just give you a re-writable device? I guess I've missed a piece of documentation somewhere?I love the idea of Uber-cheap chips but development time is much more expensive than silicon nowadays (unless you're into 'proper' volumes) and I've no wish to go back to the bad old days of 8051-flashing-led debugging....I _like_ having stepping, register output, watchpoints and breakpoints and all that good stuff! I got lazy when I got old.For sure you're on the limit of what an M3 will do in I/O given that this chip is claiming single cycle instructions (Bluepill runs at 72MHz, and will do about 16MHz in I/O...very good by ARM standards), but the rest of it is eminently feasible. Anyway, this would be one of those for-fun projects; If I were being sensible then I'm back with the 40c LPC812s!DAVE

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: mubes on October 10, 2018, 06:09:46 pm

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 10, 2018, 03:23:45 pmOh sure, OK. Didn't see that on the page mike posted.Still, some issues may not be easy to spot (or impossible) with an ICE, such as EMC-related issues. So that still could be a little annoying during the development/testing phase.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 10, 2018, 06:12:55 pmHa! That'll teach me to go posting from an airport departure lounge....now it starts to look _really_ interesting... let's see if I can get one of these ordered.DAVE

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:16:57 pm
content: QuoteWith modern 8051 you usually get a very decent debugging.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:26:45 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 10, 2018, 06:13:52 pmWe survived this development process when we used those shiny new PAL thingys. And they didn't cost 3c...Btw, you will not get annoyed when ordering one million processors at less than 3c each.

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:38:25 pm
content: Please don’t be too surprised, otherwise those Chinese electronics engineers will feel that you are ignorant.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:40:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 10, 2018, 03:23:48 pmI got the zeros right. Most new ARM MCUs being made today are in 180nm or 130nm. The finest processes you see used for MCUs right now are 65nm. Super fine geormetries don't work so well for most MCUs. The costs don't hit a sweet spot, and the processes leak too much for good sleep operation. The biggest incentive for going to 65nm has more to do with integrating RF than making a good MCU, which is why most general purpose MCUs are still in 180nm or 130nm.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 10, 2018, 11:17:09 amI think someone on here ordered a programmer for these. There's a topic on them. I'll try to find it if I can.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 06:48:54 pm
content: Software and the role of an MCU definitely have an higher probability of going through debugging and adjustment phases than a simple PAL IMO, and EMC matters were also often a second concern back then compared to what we are concerned with these days.I definitely have examples in mind where it could get annoying, such as if you're using this MCU to implement an SMPS and have to adjust some parameters during testing to pass EMC testing or such. Of course when you're using this kind of parts you're probably heading for millions of units sold and thus have ample resources for this. Either that, or you may work in a company that doesn't care about regulatory matters. Keeping my SMPS example - just tear down many cheap chinese PSUs and you'll see we're probably often in the second case.As for me I would probably pay a few cents more a chip and select a vendor that has at least some NON-OTP versions of the chosen MCU for development. But that's just my opinion of course.I still hear them say far in the background: "but 3 cents!!"

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 10, 2018, 06:48:54 pmIn that case you'd make them software-tweakable for development via a serial interface (bit-bashed,obviously) etc.

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:33:39 pm
content: Just in case if there is anyone looking for anything like this, cheap MCU with more I/O pins, Flash, ADC, DAC ......https://www.electrodragon.com/w/Logicgreen

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2018, 07:28:24 pmSure. Provided that you have at least one free IO (over only 6) and that you're confident enough that this extension of the firmware would not mess anything else during normal operation... and also that it would behave exactly the same at power-on as when you program parameters via this interface...Anyway, not saying that those 3-cent MCUs are not useful. Just saying that they are definitely not silver bullets and that you're bound to pay for the low-cost one way or another. There's no free meal. A PIC10F for instance is more than 10 times the cost. I reckon those MCUs are mainly targeted at asian companies that HAVE to keep manufacturing costs way down and often don't allow the use of non-asian components for various policy reasons (beyond sheer cost).

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 07:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2018, 06:40:28 pmafaik most if not all Cortex-M is 90nm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 08:03:48 pm
content: Wow, thats very inexpensive.I expect the biggest impact will be in developing countries where cheap chips and homebrew machinery that uses them can free up lots of workers to work on other things.(Note: I edited this when reading back it became clear to me that I had made some fundamental mistakes on the functionality of the chip)Here, the difference between $0.03 and $0.50 or so may not matter much at all to hobbyists much of the time, but it certainly would to any manufacturer and in some countries that amount of money represents much more cost to the average person than in the US or Australia.To sell them here, I'd expect to see cheap basic dev boards that made use of them - a manufacturer would be smart to make dev tools for them available- and cheap, even selling them at their cost. (with emulation so the design could be hashed out before burning it to the code's home on the 3 cent chip) Price would have to be much lower than $103 for hobbyists.That is a lot of money to spend for an emulator thats used for one chip only, that likely will only be useful for a few years as electronics changes so quickly.It would be much more useful to hobbyists if there was a sister, code compatible version which could be written to once or reused, like the AVR chips - allowing its use for development and then the 3 cent chip would complement it, be super cheap, and be write once.I am guessing many would certainly use a very cheap chip that could be effectively protected from code extraction.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 08:12:20 pm
content: Blah, you wouldn't make anything super complex with these. Not something absolutelyrequiringdebugging or emulation. Getting timings right by looking at the assembly listing would suffice as well.Some IO expanding style things, some IO timing... Power up / reset sequencing control. Adding some simple states to otherwise analog discrete DC/DC converters. Possibly some kind of zero-crossing detection using the comparator in a polling loop, giving out a pulse, or a synchronized PWM. Adding some LED magic on an already existing bus (bit-banged). Things like that. Without all the modern genericity and library crap, something around 200-300 lines of C, possibly, typically. Probably not something with 10 parameters to adjust. Maybe one or two, with a few possible values. Something you have already tested before with reprogrammable devices. The small package is quick to desolder and replace a few times with hot air.Given a somewhat experienced developer, you can prototype your idea on any microcontroller first, using the most basic peripherals available, then port/rewrite your code at once, giving some thought to it (i.e., being careful and using your brain instead of single stepping random crap code; even though isn't trendy in programming right now), and fix all the issues in a few iterations.Actually, the longest MCU program I have written "at once", and which workedon the first try, without fixing anything, on the first flashing on an AVR, was around 200 lines of code and IIRC it did read a potentiometer through ADC for a "speed" setpoint and did some kind of 6-step commutation for a rotorless magnetic stirrer.Granted, your first project ever on this part could be quite annoying. Writing code for any microcontroller the first time tends to involve "reverse-engineering" some peripheral usage due to poor documentation or just your own inattention in reading the documentation properly. There are always at least some small traps involved, requiring a few rounds of trial and error. But given the simplicity (i.e., lack of features) and small number of peripherals available, you would have learned everything in a few days. After that initial learning, given a simple project with finite specification that can be represented on a single sheet of state diagram (actually formally, or in your head), it's not going to require debugging or dozens of chips.I have seriously considered parts like these. Will probably jump in one day (when I have the excuse, i.e., something that really needs using one of these). IMO, makes most sense when you use them more widely across different projects, because the most difficult part will be the first few days of learning. Then, you have unlocked another area of expertise you can utilize later! ... and put in your resume:"Can design ultra low cost, super mass produced, almost Chinese toys".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 08:38:58 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 10, 2018, 07:54:40 pmNew families of Cortex M parts are being started in 90nm, 65nm and even 45nm, but the established families are mostly 180nm and 130nm. There is a lot of cost in getting the first part out in a new geometry. The rest of the family follows much more cheaply. The means new parts expanding existing series of MCUs are usually built in the same geometry as all the existing parts.

author: mark03
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 09:02:21 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 10, 2018, 07:54:40 pmThis is correct. Freescale/NXP/Qualcomm(?) i.MX RT "crossover" Cortex-M7s are a notable exception, at 40 nm. I have read that ARM expects the design to scale to 28 nm and the i.MX people talk about future GHz-speed parts in the RT lineup. Not sure what the talk about a new, super-fine 180 nm process was about... that must be some years out of date!

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 09:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2018, 08:38:58 pmST has had cortex-M in 90nm since 2009

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 09:18:40 pm
content: Quote from: mark03 on October 10, 2018, 09:02:21 pmWho said anything about 180nm being super-fine? Most Cortex M parts shipping in volume today have been around for 5 years or more, and are mostly in 180nm or 130nm. If you look at the volume ramps for MCUs they are mostly quite slow. Some MCUs peak when they are 10 years old. I doubt anyone is starting a new a new family of larger MCUs at greater than 90nm, but tiny 3 cent MCUs are another matter.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2018, 11:35:59 pm
content: If 1K/60bytes isn't enough you can always splash the cash and upgrade to:PMS132 2K/128bytes 12bit ADC x 12ch sop169 cents @ 1KPMS232 2K/160bytes 12b ADC x 10ch LCD 4x13 sop2416.7 cents @ 4KPMC234 Dual core (1 x 8MHz or 2 x 4MHz)! 4k/208bytes, 12bit ADCx11ch, LCD 4x21 (Vdd/2 bias optional), -45 to +85C, sop2431 cents @ 1K(sop28 also available)Note that the above prices are from a quick look on YOYCART.com - its likely that much better prices can be found if you know where to look - eg. the PMS150C is 6 cents @ 100, 4 cents @ 1K from a vendor on the same site. PMC234 are20 cents @ 1k(1.4 yuan) here:https://cn.made-in-china.com/gongying/weiruiwei01-kohmYEwOMdcy.html

author: mbest
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 12:16:23 am
content: We have to see you try a project with this now.OTP, hmm otherwise could have been the new wave of open source hardware Daveduino

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 12:26:23 am
content: Quote from: mbest on October 11, 2018, 12:16:23 amOTP, so any young tinkerer's dream. At least you'll sell plenty.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 12:39:47 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 10, 2018, 02:53:13 pmApparently you didn't bother to read the rest of my post in which I explained how to make it suck less.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 12:58:53 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2018, 08:38:58 pmSiFive's E2 and E3 series cores are roughly equivalent to Cortex M. The FE310 SoC in the HiFive1 and (3rd party) LoFive is made in 180nm. It would be dead cheap if made in volume .. a few cents each despite being 32 bit, 32 registers, 16 KB SRAM scratchpad, 16 KB L1 instruction cache and running at 256 to 320 MHz.By far the biggest cost is the packaging! That's the mystery with a 3c chip, not the CPU.SiFive customers are using the same cores (same RTL) on chips down to and including 7nm, in things such as flash/SSD controllers and SerDes.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 01:13:19 am
content: I dont think OTP is a big issue, its not like super big mcu that handles gui and needs regular fw update. If you remember your small mcu dev how many times do you have to debug-fix-burn cycle until the fw really works? 10, 50, 100? even if you are the sloppiest programmer that you have to reprogram 100x, thats still $3 of cost, and that mainly due to your slopiness. I would say 10-20 burnt otp chips average, for average programmer hence 60 cents cost. And that before any further cost saving technique is implemented such as simulator board or chip mentioned. and i believe there are gems and legendary tactics from distance past like how they do it less than 1K for apollo mission? This otp will enforce us to dig this kind of thing rather than it dies with the old champions. Imho. PS: Well i just checked apollo agc is 38'KW' rope memory ROM not 1KWd...

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 01:28:48 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 11, 2018, 01:13:19 amthe debug-fix-burn cycle is not so easy so8some Hitachi MCU have flash that is only rated for 100 writes

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 01:39:11 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 10, 2018, 08:12:20 pmI remember tracing out the circuit of a one transistor USB 5V mains adaptor, out of curiosity... it was a work of art! If that guy had access to one of these 3 cent CPUs...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 02:22:54 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 11, 2018, 12:39:47 amI did but unless I missed something, you suggested developing your own emulator.I wouldn't seriously consider having to develop an emulator just to be able to develop for a 3 cents chip, all the more that it could take much longer to develop than expected and could be actually hard to validate. Unless I was working for a chinese company willing to develop a 20 cents product that would sell by tens of millions, I have a hard time seeing the point. Obviously that's just my opinion.Apparently as someone pointed out, there is an existing emulator, but I also mentioned why I think it could still suck in quite a few situations, and I also don't know how much we could trust this emulator.Anyway. As Dave said in his video that I just saw, it's very interesting to take a look at what the asian, and especially the chinese do. They are a lot more creative nowadays that we often think, and they follow a clear path of self-sufficiency IMO. Even if they could get a Microchip MCU for 3 cents, they most likely would still develop their own. That's something we western people have to realize. Using their parts doesn't necessarily make much sense for non-asian countries though for various reasons. Whereas the chinese electronics industry tends to have more of a concern with unit manufacturing costs, western countries most often tend to have more of a concern with product development costs that can get out of hand easily and has a much higher impact.Just my 2 cents. (Cheaper than 3!)

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 03:09:58 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 11, 2018, 02:22:54 amwell you know why Trump went panic with his Tariff policy on those Kaminoans... what i'm afraid the future is the worst of fully closed source even the datasheet, so there is no more hope for hobbiests. i heard EU is already imposing the rule if i understand it correctly. TLDR:https://savecodeshare.eu/static/assets/WhitePaper-ImpactofArticel13onSoftwareEcosystem-SaveCodeShare.pdf

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 03:31:54 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 11, 2018, 02:22:54 amI explained how easy it would be to develop an emulator. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to do your own -- probably someone else already has. As has been pointed out, the company offers an ICE for $100. It would be interesting to know how that works, but it could well be simulator software running on a bigger MCU.I wrote a 6502 emulator in VAX Pascal one evening in 1982 (when I was 19) because I wanted to test my solution to the 6502 assembly language assignment and the hardware lab with the AIM-65 boards was closed until the next day. I made two errors: 1) I reversed the sense of the C flag in SBC; 2) the "read a char from the terminal if there is one, otherwise don't wait" function I worked up to enable interrupting a running simulation and drop into the debugger turned out to totally hammer the CPU. I fixed both of those the next day, and by the end of the week *everyone* was using my simulator and the lecturer agreed to accept output from it as proof programs worked.This CPU is simpler than a 6502, at least in the instruction set. I have no doubt I could get a debugged simulator going in a day. The peripherals would take longer, though the advantage of writing your own is you only have to write the bits you need.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 03:59:10 am
content: OTP programming methods not documented.Instruction set not documented. (can't even tell how wide a "word" is !)If you can't get their IDE or programmer to work, you're screwed.Weird hybrid assembler/C programming language ("Min-C"?)The IDE seems to have pretty extensive built-in "help", but I can't find a pdf...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 04:21:20 am
content: Process selection for microcontrollers also depends on the availability of floating gate storage for code. I think the densest processes with this are somewhere around 65 or 45 nanometers right now.There are also diminishing returns when bond wire requirements are taken into account. This discussion came up on RWT in connection with producing old processors like the Z80 and 8086/8088 on a modern semiconductor process. At some point, the die size becomes bond wire limited and no further reduction in area is possible.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 06:10:02 am
content: QuoteSo I've been experimenting...wow, those "primitive" IDEs are "Zippy"! (sigh.)to get the "build" command to appear, create project rather than just a file.The error messagessuckare not what I'm used to.The compiler output files are in an unknown format.AFAICT, there's no "listing"...... Or simulator (wasn't really expecting one.) The standard set of debug commands requires the ICE

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 07:36:09 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 11, 2018, 01:28:48 am

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 07:54:45 am
content: Quote from: westfw on October 11, 2018, 03:59:10 amYes, the document I read described the instructions functionally but not the binary encoding. The data memory is clearly 16 bit and word-addressed. There's syntax for loading and storing the lo and hi halves of a memory word. That'll just go to a bit in the opcode, of course.I did a rough count up of the number of possible instructions. There are too many instructions with 8-bit immediates or addresses to fit into a 12 bit word I think. But far from needing 16. Let's guess 14 bits for now :-)No problem to reverse-engineer if you get an assembler from them.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 09:13:21 am
content: What IDE and compiler do they have? any app-notes? can it be done in C?

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 09:25:23 am
content: QuoteSee my next message about not getting a recognizable form of binary file, or program listing...The instruction set looks like a somewhat improved "Microchip PIC16" architecture.Single "Accumulator"Accumulator/Memory math operations with result going to either."skip" instructions, include inc/dec and skip on zero"add to PC" for table lookups. "return" instruction with value...Improvements:ram-based stackSeparate IO and RAM space (although I guess that could be an assembly-language hack.)exchange Ac/M instruction.Add/sub w Carry.Use of any M as indirect address (?)if it's a copy, rather than just "influenced", I'm impressed that they re-wrote all the instruction mnemonics (and it's interesting that the sort of "maximized" the list, rather than Microchip's "minimized" version.) (and... to contemplate that with modern HW design techniques, you could design a CPU with the same architecture and functions as an existing chip, but completely scramble the binary instruction format. I never thought of that before...)

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 09:44:05 am
content: QuoteI don't recognize it. Very high-contrast, Black-background, rather DOS-looking (but has "W95" style windows/icons, and seems to make good use of a big screen.)Compiler isn't identifiable, either. The whole thing looks like a single executable...They seem to have a C-like language they can Min-C. Weird-looking... I approve, in some ways, but I'm not very enthusiastic about dealing with ... weirdness.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 09:50:43 am
content: Looking at some of the example/generator code, the C looks as complete as it needs to be for this scale of part.Has anyone found any English documentation for the language ? Guessing it's something slightly more than a macro-assembler.I had a quick skim through the IDE .exe with hexplorer and didn't see any obvious keyword list.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 10:05:25 am
content: Quote from: westfw on October 11, 2018, 03:59:10 amI don't know how big the I/O space is. I'm assuming 5 bits just like the directly addressable memory.If it's limited to just this part then I get 6774 total instructions, which you could encode in 13 bits.However someone posted part numbers for versions with 2K and 4K words of program space. That expands the number of instructions to 12918, which needs 14 bits.e.g. possible encoding0 op1 addr12 - call/goto addr100 op3 imm8 - mov,add,sub,and,or,xor,ceqsn,ret immediate1010 op2 sel3 io5 - set0,set1,t0sn,t1sn reg.bit10110 dir1 op3 addr5 - mov,add,addc,sub,subc,and,or,xor a,M or M,a10111 op4 addr5 - subc,addc,inc,dec,clear,xch,sr,src,sl,slc,not,neg,izsn,dzsn,ldt16,stt16 M110000 op2 sel3 addr4 - set0,set1,t0sn,t1sn M.bit11000100 dir1 io5 - mov a,IO or IO,a11000101 dir1 addr5 - ldxm a,M or M,a (indirect load/store via 16 bit address)110001100 addr5 - ceqsn a,M110001101 op5 - pushaf,popaf,addc a,subc a,sr a,src a,sl a,swap a,not a,neg a,izsn a,dzsn a,ret,reti,nop,pcadd a,engint,disgint,stopsys,stopexe,reset,wdresetThere's still 7*512 + 2 * 32 + 10 = 3658 unused opcodes in this scheme. Looks like the I/O address space could actually be 7 bits (i.e. 128 bytes) and still be able to rearrange things to fit.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 10:12:18 am
content: QuoteYeah - the "Application Note" menu seems to have documentation that is reasonably complete (better than that even. Well, some sections are missing.)It keeps asking me to install "Chinese Traditional" fonts, but I click "cancel" and it displays mostly ascii and english (not great english, but. in significant detail. "Chatty", even.) There's a "help" subdirectory of the install that seems to contain "different" help, as well...Hmm. Doesn't seem to copy/paste for me. Here's another screenshot:

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 11:14:46 am
content: Quote from: westfw on October 11, 2018, 09:44:05 amgoto menu Help -> Color and it will toggle between black and white background (interesting notions as many others in the program we have to learn). being a Win XP/98/95 lover i kind of like it, esp the WinExplorer like folder tree in project/workspace view and old MDI parent/child style, not the modern multitabbed bullshit that i cannot resize and arrange the multi code view at will. well i cannot single step in the IDE it needs an ICEhttp://www.padauk.com.tw//upload/ICEmanual/PDK5S-ICE-UM(CN)v0.01.pdfit looks like a big thingif its not like in attached picture... well at least the have single step and step over menu, not like other OSS IDEs.but on the pro side, they have a homegrown IDE (compiler linker integrated) not the other STCMCU series they have to use Keil IDE, but they have ISP SW (similar to OTP Writer i guess) and programming a STC chip doesnt require an ICE, just a cheap usb-uart module. so this whole China business is mixed good and bad experience.ref:http://www.padauk.com.tw/en/product/show.aspx?num=4&kind=41http://www.padauk.com.tw/en/technical/index.aspx?kind=26

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 07:37:39 pm
content: Can normal people buy them in normal quantities somewhere and pay really little?Small musical instruments and toys sound fun.Displays for every conceivable voltage and current around you.One could make up a little breakout board for them and go for it. Even the Blue Pill costs around $2 so thats a bit of a deterrent from some projects.. but $0.03 damn.Bit bang USB 1 works, so, instant USB thangs.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 08:26:35 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 11, 2018, 07:37:39 pmlcsc.comwhat project that isn't mass production or something where you wouldn't use a breakout anyway is deterred by $2 ?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 08:33:16 pm
content: Maybe I'm a thrifty person who likes to get a good deal?

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2018, 09:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 11, 2018, 10:05:25 amFrom the PMS232 datasheethttp://www.padauk.com.tw/upload/doc/PMC232,%20PMS232%20datasheet%20v0.03_EN.pdf"100 powerful instructions""2Kx16 bits OTP program memory for both FPP units"The PMS150c has 79 instructions. The 232 instruction set has most of the 150C instructions with additions - see the attached diff file - so while it's possible that the 150C has a shorter instruction width, it seems rather unlikely to me.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 01:55:40 am
content: Quote from: westfw on October 11, 2018, 06:10:02 amYes, OTP and poor docs, is a real time sink, so you really have to be expecting to use 100,000+ of these to bother.The more appealing MCUs for modest volumes, at lcsc are the cheapest flash ones, and then, the cheapest flash withstandard core.eg Quite a few 8051's appear at the 20c region, and the CH551 (SO16) is 18c/2k (effectively free USB ?!)A $1.80 breakout board, that appears to be download ready, is here :https://www.electrodragon.com/product/ch551-mini-dev-board-ch55x-series/Code examples are herehttps://github.com/Edragon/WCH- sofareasier to get going with a 20c Flash MCU than a 3c OTP one....

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 02:46:23 am
content: Quotemeh. "Easier" to give up a beer/soda for a week and buy those $1.50 "Pro mini" clones by the dozen."easy" isn't the point.At least, I enjoy "look - they've managed to manufacture a really cheap chip, by being "different" (?) - can Idealwith that different-ness, even if it's not technically "worth it"?Gonna take one of those $0.10 OTP micros and combine it with a $0.10 EEPROM and make a BASIC Stamp that's cheaper than a stamp! :-)

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 04:14:31 am
content: Hackaday should run a contest for the most interesting thing that can be made for less than $1 per unit, or something.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 05:57:19 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on October 12, 2018, 01:55:40 amThat's pretty nice.The CH551 is 18 cents in volume with 10K of Flash, USB, SPI, UART, cap touch, and an LDO and other stuff. Nice.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 08:35:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 12, 2018, 05:57:19 amAre there any good free/cheap 8051 compilers ?And good luck getting USB working on an MCU with Chinese-only data..

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 08:53:37 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2018, 08:35:17 amAre there any good paid for 8051 compilers, after Microchip bought up and closed down Hitech?Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2018, 08:35:17 amPerhaps the ability to read would get you farther than luck.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 09:36:28 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 12, 2018, 08:53:37 amI though Keil were always the go-to people for 8051, or were they just the first?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 09:42:35 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2018, 09:36:28 amKeil is the one people go to now Hitech has gone. A bit like people driving a Yugo when they couldn't keep up the payments on their MacLaren.Keil isn't too awful is you keep yourself to a subset of C, and accept that you are writing for a maths and pointer challenged machine. If you want to take C source (protocol code being a common example) from a big machine it can produce some clunky results.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 10:13:51 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2018, 06:40:28 pmIt varies greatly.New Nordic IoT chipsets are in 55nm:https://www.nordicsemi.com/eng/News/Press-Center/Press-Backgrounders/About-nRF52832(ST) Cortex m7 chips mostly in 40nmMany Cortex m4 chips in 90nm.And then there are academic reports of Cortex m3/m4 chips consuming <10 uW/MHz:http://www.eas.uccs.edu/~mwickert/ece5655/lecture_notes/ARM/ece5655_chap2.pdfhttps://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8244245Implemented in the later technologies, however these are often talking about a very simple "MCU" system. A lot of the power is going into bus/NoC infrastructures and clock/power domain crossing.Note that these achievements are not done with the default cell library supplied by any chip foundry. I think all MCU manufacturers that are worth their money w.r.t. ultra low power chips create their own cell libraries alongside having dedicated architecture, synthesis and layout teams to optimize these specifications.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 10:28:45 am
content: Quote from: hans on October 12, 2018, 10:13:51 amThat page is from 2015. That was about the time everyone was moving to 65nm or smaller for MCUs with 2.4GHz RF on board. Some were going for 45nm, but the leakage wasn't making for a very good sleep mode. I don't know how much that has changed in the last couple of years.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 11:10:49 am
content: 3 cents is obviously not the complete story, unless you guys work for free and have no shipping + import costs etcA new product means a different workflow, new set of bugs, a new learning curve, new stability tests etcIn the end that all means extra time = money.Not to forget the assurance that it will always be in stock and availability.Still an amazing price nonetheless.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 12:14:31 pm
content: I have a suggestion for padauk, buy one W25Q64FVSSIG flash which is a cheap 8MB flash for about 0.5USD from Taobao, and use a samurai katana to cut it into 8192 pieces and replace the fucking OTP memory with these slices, so you can increase your part cost by the 0.5USD/8192 - OTP memory price!bingo, problem solved! your price should remain under 4 cents! that's acceptable for us too

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 01:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on October 12, 2018, 12:14:31 pmPadauk:Maybe now is a chance to make available some low cost development tools: your chip in DIP-14, DIP-16 or DIP-20 package, with SRAM or Flash replacing the OTP ROM. The additional pins on the DIP package are used for a dedicated, standards-conforming JTAG interface. If you need a reference JTAG implementation, just grab a free one from OpenCores.Also release documentation of the instruction set and the JTAG interface too to the community, no further support is usually needed as long as the document is written in good English. You don't need to bother with debug hardware as long as the JTAG implementation is standard and documented, since FTDI-based solution like the Intel USB Blaster, GPIO bit banging like Bus Pirate, and CMSIS-DAP based ones like ARM ULink 2 will work on almost any JTAG interfaces.Enthusiasts will take the documentations, and contribute an assembler and code generation to LLVM, SDCC or GCC, contribute JTAG programming algorithm and interfacing code to OpenOCD, and debug support to GDB.~~~~

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 09:54:56 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2018, 08:35:17 amSDCC is quite good, and IAR have a free version, IIRC good to 4k bytes.SDCC example here :https://github.com/mogenson/ch551&https://github.com/Blinkinlabs/ch554_sdccSiLabs include a free Keil compiler with their tool flows, and there are other languages like Turbo51 (pascal variant) etcBASIC52 is still out there, and plenty of 8051 Assemblers too...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2018, 10:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on October 12, 2018, 09:54:56 pmI second that, I've used SDCC for several years, years ago, to develop for and maintain Cypress FX1 and FX2-based products. And it was years ago, so I'm assuming SDCC only got better.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 12:18:31 am
content: Quote from: b_force on October 12, 2018, 11:10:49 amI agree with this. Interesting to tinker with or for extreme high volume products but otherwise there is very little practical use when you take engineering time cost into account.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 12:40:38 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2018, 12:18:31 amUnless you do more than one project with these chips. As with any chip family, the initial investment is the expensive bit. After that the gains should be better. This is no different in western chips.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 08:03:35 am
content: Which is exactly why this only makes sense for large units (I would reckon far beyond 1k qty).If you need to spend just 1 day debugging a lost-in-translation or undocumented feature, that easily adds up to 500 - 1k$ budget.You could have bought 1500 PIC10s for that 1 day of debugging.In addition, let's consider the hundred to thousand qty range. Can you get these chips preprogrammed? What tools do you need to do it yourself in a production environment? How much time does it take you to set this up and keep it running, and how fast is programming/verification?Sure these problems are also very relevant for any other chip, but this is exactly part of the investment for a particular series of chip. See the aforementioned 1 day of debugging time cost.Finally, these 3ct micro's are very small chips, so the code running on it will be very low level and direct approach.But there are also cheap chips out there that can support USB, Ethernet, or any other protocol via software. How much in terms of SDK code is out there which you can pick up and just use? The SDK and code examples are a great place to start testing hardware and building their application on top of it, especially if you don't want to mess around for days or weeks writing, debugging, verifiying, reorganizing and refactoring code.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 09:22:27 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 13, 2018, 12:40:38 amDo the math. High volume is the only area where it makes sense to support multiple microcontroller families.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 05:20:01 pm
content: There is "high volume", then there's another kind of "high volume"...Maybe you need a very specific kind of LED driver (not available COTS), to drive a few $0.01 LEDs each, let's say an RGB LED. Then you need a matrix of 1000 such LEDs. It doesn't need to be a big installation.Even for a one-off, you are already in the quantity of 1k of this micro. For just 10 products, you are at 10k. It quickly starts making sense.The component BOM cost for one product would be then around $0.01 for LED + $0.025 for the MCU, plus $0.01 for some decoupling and resistors. So $45 total.For a "good old known AVR/PIC" at about $0.30 each, the total would be $420. For a single unit. A huge difference - that's a completely different market segment.The "OTP tax" isn't necessarily massive. The specific LED task might be 20 lines of code, working perfectly the second or third try.Or maybe you need some specific logic function building block in many of your projects. For example, a certain zero crossing detector PWM thing in DC/DC.There are some specific cases not related to massive volumes, or toys. Of course, for these cases, decent reliability tends to be a requirement - as would be getting them pre-programmed in quantities with not much more price overhead. But I'm quite positive you can get them preprogrammed - just need to find the source (ask Padauk?)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 06:00:49 pm
content: That argument is a bit far fetched because you'll need additional logic to communicate as well. At 1k volume the solution costs over $30 in parts alone because you'll need bypass capacitors as well (and not taking the cost of pick&place time into account). A larger microcontroller which can control 100 individual LEDs (using 20 I/O pins for a 10x10 matrix) is likely to be cheaper.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 07:30:10 pm
content: I don't get the confusion.A decent known brand uC with similar (or better!) specs is around 20-25 cents a piece.So on your whole design you save about 15-20 cents.That isn't even a significant number when only looking at the PCB parts/connectors.Plus for those extra 20 cents you know you have at least a decent customer service, readable datasheets and you don't have to learn Mandarin when having questions about certain functionalities.It depends on how you want to safe every penny, but for those quantities my customers can get those 20 cents for free for having a more reliable product.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 08:16:05 pm
content: There's a whole bunch of people speaking Mandarin, they might be the main market.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 10:23:53 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2018, 06:00:49 pmYour problem right here is that ifyoudon't see how you'd be utilizing these parts, you assume no one else could work it out, either; it's beyond your imagination.This is a fallacy, and it's not "far-fetched" at all; just engineering, sometimes a specific solution happens to work great even if it's unthinkable to many or even most engineers such as yourself. It may still not be far-fetched for others, with different ways to do their design work.First, you don't necessarily need "additional logic to communicate". These microcontrollers have - gasp! - IO in them. Communicating is well possible with zero extra components; you'd bit-bang anything you need, most likely something simple such as UART, but doing I2C could allow you interfacing with some other existing system. Or maybe you need to go through a simple resistor; or even AC coupled / level shifted through a $0.001 (add another $0.001 for P&P and yet another $0.001 for PCB real estate) capacitor with Manchester encoding. There are countless options if you need them and have your mind open.Remember I mentioned a certain BMS system I designed and tested, and sold in smallish quantities? In this, I used capacitor level shifted, custom bit-banged Manchester encoded communication. It was simple & reliable as hell. The ATTiny25 dominated the BOM cost, even over the board cost, P&P cost, and test/calibration. And because a "typical" system would use between 20 to 100 products, there is this effect that building 100 products produces 5000 such subassemblies!"A larger microcontroller" driving 100 LEDs as a multiplexed matrix might be unable to provide, say, 10-bit PWM dimming. Also, there could be wiring reasons to go with "local logic" instead of spaghetti. Even if doable, the additional wires and connectors (or more complex PCB routing, and using a larger board) would be an even additional cost in final assembly stage.This is engineering; you can't know beforehand which solution is optimal, without knowing the exact problem. The more you have tools in your (mental) toolbox, the more capable you are. This is the cliché of "thinking outside the box".P&P time is a fair point, but it's somewhere around $0.01 per chip, so even if you fix my numbers to account for that omission, there is no significant change in the result.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 10:41:39 am
content: Quote from: b_force on October 13, 2018, 07:30:10 pmThis is the specific kind of false FUD argument that pisses me off. Not because I think a Padauk controller would be a nice&easy experience to work with, but because this gives you an impression that the "classic", more expensive alternatives would.Yes, I use STM32, a reputable Western brand; I have used them extensively for years. No, I don't have a readable datasheet (reference manual to be correct), I need to reverse engineer the shit out of their broken and undocumented, or unintuitive designs, and yes, I have contacted the customer service several times, either to get help (clarification on manual omissions), or to report a silicon bug (with a minimum reproducible test code that I have tested with several chips to rule out unit variance, possibly spending a full day just to make a proper error report) to be included in the errata sheet, but they don't bother replyingat all. There isnocustomer service. Or if there is, it's much more than the price you paid for the chip. It probably requires some kind of multi $10k support agreement, I don't know? Or maybe you need to be a massive customer (speaking of volumes).I have learned to live with this and actually don't want to complain too much about it; I understand they (ST) are making cheap hi-tech shit quickly and that means limiting the resources in documentation and customer service. I do the same sin. I don't have time to document and support everything properly either.So, I feel myself fairly safe with any kind of a microcontroller, because I can handle it, I'm used to it, and I'm used to slowdowns and can account for them beforehand. I'm positive I'd be just fine with a 3 cent Padauk, if the need ever arises, even if they had STM32-level customer service (this is, no customer service). OTOH, there is a possibility that theydohave English customer service - look at their English documentation for example, they have clearly spent some resources doing it -, how do you know without trying it out?The power of this chip is in simplicity. Given somevery basicdocumentation, you can work out the missing details by the same process needed with an STM32 - through revense-engineering and guesstimation. But because it's simple, it's unlikely to be a completely dead end. And if it is, you'll see it very quickly.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 11:49:59 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2018, 12:20:22 amThick gate oxide makes 180nm 5V capable. I wouldn't be surprised if the Far East has some unique process variants that aren't found elsewhere.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 12:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 15, 2018, 11:49:59 amIIRC Silicon Labs EFM8 MCUs are made with 180nm Globalfoundries process. Core is running at 1.8V with internal vreg not accessible from the outside. Those can be powered by up to 3.6V. USB capable chips have another up to 5.5V -> 3.3V vreg, up to 100mA. Need external decoupling and can power external load. Those also have 5V tolerant I/O.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 02:14:47 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 15, 2018, 10:23:53 amNow you are throwing oodles of engineering time at a problem which doesn't have to exist. A big problem with having microcontrollers communicating which eachother is that it will go wrong every now and then. More microcontrollers means more errors which in turns means you might need additional components for filtering in order to make the solution to work reliable enough so the customer doesn't notice it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 02:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 15, 2018, 11:49:59 amHigh voltage transistors are a lot bigger than the standard transistors for a process. Using them for the whole device, and running everything at up to 5V, would really bulk up the die area. A regulator to run the core at something like 1.8V, while the periphery of the chip runs at at to 5V, would be the normal way to approach such a device.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 03:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 13, 2018, 07:30:10 pmA well known brand of MCU which is functionally similar to the Padauk device is not 20 cents in volume, although you won't normally get small quantities for a low price. That is what makes Padauk's marketing approach distinctive.The kind of products these Padauk MCUs target don't have 20 cents slack in the price. The budget for the entire electronics in something like a musical greeting card or a small toy is only 10 to 20 cents, and the profit margin is only a cent or two.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 07:37:57 pm
content: With micro this cheap, the chip could be the product, itself.In days of old, most of the IC you buy might be completely analog. In modern times, with extreme low quiescent current sleep micros, did you ever wonder if some of these chips are a very cheap micro that are flashed to perform as X/Y/Z? Buck converter, for instance. You need a decent ADC and maybe ~1Mhz execution to make a decent buck converter. Li ion management IC? Well, that would need an external transistor. But what about a voltage detector IC? There are probably better examples, but you get the idea.I hope Dave manages to do a project video with this device. Just blink a LED in assembly, and it will be a great video.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 07:58:32 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on October 15, 2018, 07:37:57 pmThere are MCU cores embedded in all sorts of devices these days. Li-ion management chips are a good example. They may use a standard die, or a customised one, with special purpose things like pass transistors on the die.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 08:13:26 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on October 15, 2018, 07:37:57 pmOne well known product that is just a programmed microcontroller is the OBD II protocol decoder ELM327.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 09:48:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 15, 2018, 03:02:11 pmWhat part of saving every penny is to difficult to understand?I literally just told this.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on October 15, 2018, 07:37:57 pmThat's part of what drives the volumes of MCUs. They are now cheaper than many dedicated parts.Look at Voltage Monitors, Temperature Sensors, and even the price of i2c ADC and DAC, and you can find a MCU can make solid sense replacing even a dedicated part.eg SiLabs MCUs with 12b DACs are cheaper than any 12b DACs listed on Digikey.That's a single peripheral function, that is cost competitive, so the ADC comes for free, as does the UART/SPI and of course the 50 MIPS MCU too !

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2018, 11:26:42 pm
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on October 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pmWell, to be honest, I still use as much "analog" electronics if I can.The real estate on your board isn't that much different, but it saves the time in developing and programming the microcontroller as well as programming it in production.(with all errors and issues that come with it).In the end that actually saves quite some money as well as less issues in production and a more reliable product.I am not saying this is always the case btw.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2018, 06:45:35 am
content: There are 10 kinds of people, those who does not want to bother this padauk bullshit MCU and those who wants to touch the clean with their dirty hands(me included), so if you don't want to do it, do not play it at home!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2018, 08:00:30 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on October 15, 2018, 11:09:41 pmOnly if you don't care about analog performance. '12 bit' stamped on an ADC or DAC doesn't mean it really is 12 bit. On the cheaper parts it usually isn't.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2018, 10:52:00 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2018, 08:00:30 amCorrect, a lot of times the error in bits is pretty bad.I have seen up to +/- 5-10 LSB. Even for external ones.Not to talk about the drift.You can get better performance with it to program self calibrating routines, but not many people think about it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2018, 12:58:08 pm
content: I got a few of the 14-pin ones (PM154C) as the 8 pin had sold out - x-ray shows die size approx 0.7x0.5mm

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2018, 01:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 10, 2018, 01:46:17 pmFYI KW is not SI unit, SI unit would be kW

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2018, 06:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on October 15, 2018, 08:13:26 pmthis is a business model of Nanjing Qin Heng Electronicshttp://www.wch.cn/. They make cheap microcontrollers, PCI interface chips, USB interface chips(universal, HID, USB Storage etc), serial interface... you get the picturemost of their devices are the same die microcontroller with custom tailored firmware.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2018, 09:17:36 pm
content: The CH551 looks really interesting. There is a dev board:https://www.electrodragon.com/product/ch551-mini-dev-board-ch55x-series/With alotof demo code on github:https://github.com/Edragon/WCHMaybe run the demo code through google translate to decipher the comments.This is really cool... I ordered one of those boards. ETA 12-50days.China post.Going to see if I can get something going with sdcc; they seem to use Keil. My guess is it'll take ten minutes or less to make it compile with sdcc and gmake.They claim to sell the IC for $.25, but I couldn't find it on their site or I would have ordered some at the same time.Edit: $.21 qty 10 from LCSC. Ordered 25. Awesome!

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2018, 03:15:17 am
content: This is strange. Looking at the page now, they seem to have slipped another decimal place! Now 0.47c each for 10, down to 0.3c each for 5000.Shirley shome mishtake?https://lcsc.com/product-detail/PADAUK_PADAUK-Tech-PMS150C_C129127.html

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2018, 07:00:08 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 19, 2018, 03:15:17 amSeems to be fixed now

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2018, 10:19:55 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 19, 2018, 07:00:08 amYup. I should have bought some :-)

author: SWR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2018, 03:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 13, 2018, 05:20:01 pmWhy not use a LED with built in communication like they do in the LED tapes?Example: WorldSemi WS2812B

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2018, 04:21:27 am
content: Maybe you need a specific LED for reasons like wavelength or emission pattern, and addressable LEDs don't have suitable properties.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2018, 06:50:10 am
content: Quote from: PointyOintment on October 23, 2018, 04:21:27 amOr a driver that sucks less

author: engineer_in_shorts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 01:51:45 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2018, 09:36:28 amIAR was first, EW8051 ramped up when Keil was bought by ARM. Those cheap and novel 8051 based micros need compiler support and some manufactures were not willing to talk to an ARM related company.. Silabs, Winbond, megawin, teridian, ASIX, some niche RF chips etc

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2018, 05:20:31 am
content: Did anyone manage to build an asm project with the Padauk tools?