EEVblog #818 - Embedded Electronics With Jack Ganssle - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:35:18 am
content: Embedded legend Jack Ganssle and Dave have an impromptu chat on embedded electronics. Everything from EE learning and education, 8008 processors to quantum computing, and from VW Combi vans to the recent Toyota and Volkswagon scandalshttp://www.ganssle.com/Jack's Books:http://amzn.to/1MPcAeVNewsletter:http://www.ganssle.com/tem-subunsub.htmlYoutube channel:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC067MO4ZVsbA8QDJG0qCTJQ

author: tec5c
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:41:53 am
content: Where are his 900 blog videos? His YT channel only has 16 videos on it...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:46:51 am
content: Quote from: tec5c on November 17, 2015, 11:41:53 amI said text blog posts.

author: tec5c
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 11:53:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 17, 2015, 11:46:51 amI had to rewatch that bit. You said "..you think I've done a lot ofvideos..how many blogpostshave you done?"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 01:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: tec5c on November 17, 2015, 11:53:12 amWell, I knew what I meant

author: g.lewarne
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 02:51:51 pm
content: Thoroughly interesting and enjoyable, thankyou Dave and Jack

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 03:14:49 pm
content: That was fun, thank you gentlemen.

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 04:19:38 pm
content: We had Jack give a lecture where I work.I was kind of amused by the frankness of the talk when it came to discussion regarding management. These were the people signing his paycheck, yet a lot of the lecture focused negatively on management or espoused ideas that management would find particularly unpalatable.I'm not in management so it was nice to have Jack advocate for us lowly engineers. (We got our fair share of tough love, too.) It was a very good lecture but I'm left wondering how often Jack gets invited back to the same company.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 05:38:37 pm
content: I believe even on the big aircraft carriers they still have some guy go out on deck with a sextant every day and report tothe captain just so they know how to do it if it was ever needed

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 05:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: TerminalJack505 on November 17, 2015, 04:19:38 pmYes, we had Jack here as well. It's an excellent lecture and presentation.

author: ECEdesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 06:41:25 pm
content: Excellent interview Dave! I really enjoyed it, as a student there is a lot to learn and I am eager to learn as much as I can and start building stuff. I think its really cool where EE, Chemistry and Physics come together such as in new transistor design or data storage solutions.

author: jonwil
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2015, 10:58:57 pm
content: In regards to the security of cars, I think that putting a cellular connection into a car is a VERY stupid idea and whoever came up with it is an idiot.Now we have the EU pushing a mandate for cellular connections to enable OnStar type emergency assist technology where a car will automatically notify emergency services in a serious accident (e.g. airbag deployment might trigger it).What is needed is to go the other way. Don't have data connections (mobile, WiFi or otherwise) in cars. Any wireless interfaces that do need to exist (such as for Bluetooth stuff for phones or for tyre pressure monitoring) should be locked down tight and have no access to the vehicle systems.The root problem though is that cars are just too complex and have too much computer control. In the olden days it used to be that there was a physical link between the brake pedal and the brakes on the car and that was it. You press the pedal, fluid flows through the brake lines and presses the brake pads and the car slows down or stops. Same with the throttle being a direct link from the accelerator pedal to the engine and its systems. Now we have ABS, traction control, stability control, anti-lock brakes, adaptive cruise control and all these other "drive by wire" technologies where the computers have the ability to control all the cars systems (quite a few cars can even have the steering actuated by the computer these days).

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 04:53:44 am
content: Thanks for that, gentlemen. I really enjoyed that interview.As a mid-career EE (let's call it 20 years in for round numbers), I find both of your opinions on the career prospects for EEs very interesting. I came from semiconductor and processor design world, and frankly, that's not a growth area anymore. I'm newer to the board and system level world, and am not certain whether this is a great space for the next 20. Don't get me wrong -- we can do awesome stuff, and as a hobbyist it's super-exciting, but as a career, it's not clear to me at all. Highly integrated SoCs do so much for you, and when you need to go off-chip, you can usually use a reasonably painless serial interface of some kind to communicate with the next whiz-bang do-it-all part. For the majority of designs that don't involve lots of analog or mega speed, putting a modest board together isn't that big a deal.That's good and it's bad. A lot of the complexity has moved into SW, and that's fine, but I still love the HW.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:18:33 am
content: Fantastic video, thanks!

author: Dinsdale
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 07:24:59 am
content: 16:21 (or nearby): What a couple of stoners!Fantastic interview / performance / production.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:20:32 am
content: I loved his reference to 'ethics in engineering'...A very important concept.Engineering in its many hats has provided society with an incredible variety of opportunities over the last 60-odd years.For the most part, the commercial exploitation of these opportunities has been relentlessly unethical for any number of reasons. VW and other recent cases are just the ones that were caught, and received media attention.Without getting buried in semantics and bureaucracy, which can be as bad as morality management... we as a group must begin spending time examining the use of technology for technology's sake - over a real contribution to process vs a real contribution to shareholder value.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 10:17:16 am
content: Ethics are important. After I got my degree I was approached by two companies, both of whom offered me a reasonably large salary if I would go and work for them. One manufactured missiles and the other built nuclear submarines and both of them received a polite 'no thanks'. I ended up using my Electrical Engineering degree elsewhere (and for less pay) but I got to sleep at nights.Yes, I KNOW that some of you do defense work but we each get to make the personal decision and I'm happy with the one I made.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 12:20:31 pm
content: I found the API-around-quantum-computing concept interesting -- I'm not so sure that's a viable approach (the two of you perhaps approaching the same conclusion later in the video too). I mean, a firmware engineer hearing early rumours about FPGAs and with no concept of logic gates might have thought the same thing ("I don't need to understand gates, an API will abstract that away for me"), but oh how wrong they'd be!

author: ECEdesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on November 18, 2015, 04:53:44 amSo do you think that hardware EEs are a becoming less needed? I have wondered this with things like software defined radio replacing the need for as much hardware. Programming is ok but hardware seems much more interesting for me.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:05:40 pm
content: Excellent episode. Much appreciated, Dave and Jack!

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:29:12 pm
content: This is one of your best blogs.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:40:23 pm
content: I actually stopped all work to watch this one. Great content. Great human perspective on engineering. It is really great to see and hear from those that have 'been there, done that' but from a different perceptive and different reasons from another person that has 'been there, done that'.Thank you for making this one happen, fingers crossed we will be treated with more in the future. One of my most memorable life moments was sitting in the front seat of a DC-3 at an air show talking with a 90+ year old pilot about his experiences in aviation - from before you needed a pilots license to retiring as a 747 captain. The rapid changes, the culture, the technology. This video was like that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 05:57:51 pm
content: Thumbs up for this one

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 06:48:09 pm
content: Nice video. I'm happy to know I'm in the right field of engineering, according to Jack Gannsle at leat.I followed an Embedded System Design bachelors basically learning both the hardware and the software domain. And indeed, most embedded software at my company was made by Electrical Engineers, you know, those who design flawless analog frontends and high power output stages. Yet, the software is a bit left behind.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 06:53:25 pm
content: Discussion about embedded electronics was very interesting. Big thanks for Jack Ganssle for showing up during his holidays.I found sound quality to be borderline annoying and painful to listen - sound levels were very different for Jack and Dave, I found myself constantly adjusting volume. Maybe try different microphones for each person or use more aggressive software sound equalisation next time.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 07:44:52 pm
content: Quote from: ECEdesign on November 18, 2015, 05:02:59 pmWell, that's the big question. Honestly, I am still undecided, but let's say 90% sure that EE employment will steadily decline over the next few decades, at least in the West. A lot of work that would have been done by EEs will be done by people with some, but limited training in EE. I could be wrong, but I don't see what would reverse that trend. That's not to say we'll see fewer new designs, but that those designs will use more complete and "cooked" building blocks, and that the designers will be different, and their pay will be different.Frankly, I found Jack and Dave's optimism a bit perplexing given that both of them are essentially retired from EEas a career.

author: Blaffetuur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 08:14:19 pm
content: Quote from: Dinsdale on November 18, 2015, 07:24:59 amHere ya go

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:17:56 pm
content: That was really great Dave!!

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 01:37:31 am
content: Dave, have you considered making episodes such as this just an audio/podcast release as well?Not really a lot of info happening video wise and then it becomes a bit more portable (at least for me).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 01:43:02 am
content: Quote from: aargee on November 19, 2015, 01:37:31 amYou can easily fetch the audio from Youtube.

author: farsi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 02:23:07 pm
content: Really nice discussions about learning embedded development.One thing about mentioning Arduino: Indeed, it is easy for first steps, but maybe limiting to learn the "real" stuff. Why is this so?To me, one of the main problems is the Arduino IDE. It really hides a lot of working with multiple files and developing your own code/abstractions.However, there are no good ways to get started without IDE as far I saw, and most people use it to quickly get access to a serial port as well as flash a device.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 03:29:45 pm
content: Quote from: farsi on November 19, 2015, 02:23:07 pmThe Arduino IDE doesn't prevent you from accessing the underlying AVR chip. You can do an awful lot more if you get in there and access the chip features directly.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 05:23:46 pm
content: Yes, but then you'd need to read the manual of the chip instead of the Arduino.Most people don't do that.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 05:31:01 pm
content: Better than beginners reading an Arm M4 data sheet cover to cover.BTW. To the post above about a podcast, have you listened to The Amp Hour?

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 06:01:44 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on November 19, 2015, 05:23:46 pmSo what if most people don't do that? Most people aren't going to dig into a 500-page databook no matter what.I really hate the attitude that "only people who have dedicated their lives to the technology should be allowed to use it". I see this a lot on the internet. I think it's great that thousands of people who wouldn't otherwise use microcontrollers have had fun with Arduino blinky-LED projects. And for people who want to dig deeper, it's all right there for them.When you're starting out with something this complicated, youneedto start with a system that hides most of the complexity. Otherwise you can't get anything done, and you just give up. I would never have bothered getting back into electronics after many years, if it weren't for Arduino. It was a simple step to move beyond the built-in functions to fiddling the MCU control registers and bit-banging the I/O ports.I really don't understand why some people consider Arduino or the maker movement to be negative things, unless they're just opposed to other people figuring out how to use "their" technology.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 09:41:18 pm
content: Quote from: Len on November 19, 2015, 06:01:44 pmIt's mostly an appeal to elitism and priesthood. The Arduino platform's success speaks for itself. Getting the beginner to start with C/C++ from the beginning is the correct path even as lots of pre-made functions and libraries help the learning curve. How far someone goes is up to the individual as it should be.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 10:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: Len on November 19, 2015, 06:01:44 pmI think it's wonderful that people who wouldn't do electronics (e.g. artists, the original intended audience for Arduino) get access to the capabilities of Arduino. At the same time, I think it's pretty obvious that some people who might have been interested in electronics end up getting sidetracked and bogged down into the very cozy but limited world of Arduino.The IDE is OK, but the documentation and website is the really nasty part in this respect. AFAICT there's absolutely no little hints or attempts to help users grow. Really intelligent people that I know who grew up with Arduino have no idea how slow digitalWrite is, how taxing software serial is, and so on. It become a "plug-these-things-together-and-hope-for-the-best" grind; if two different libraries both unilaterally decide to use the same hardware timer/counter, their code mysteriously breaks. Does the IDE link you to the underlying code like any other IDE? Nah. Is there an option to see the assembler output, atrivialfeature to implement which would spark the "what isthis" response hinted at by Ganssle? Nowhere. On-chip debugging?The most puzzling thing to me is that the arduino hardwarecouldhave been used a real serial ISP, rather than a hacky bootloader coupled with an FTDI chip. That decision lives on inthis abomination of a page, which thanks to the instructions to include an Arduino bootloader and due to the poorly written IDE's inability to set up a 8MHz internal RC clock, is massively longer, more complicated and more confusing to the n00b that the instructions for how to use the PicKit with a standalone Microchip part on a breadboard, or the instructions for how to use the JTAG ICE with a standalone Atmel part on a breadboard. This is not education, this is harmful misdirection -- as far as people who might have been really good electronics engineers are concerned.I bought a JTAG ICE a long time ago (nowadays they are a lot cheaper) and I haven't felt inclined to mess around with other chip providers. So I fully understand when other people fully buy into the Arduino bootloader approach and would consider programming an Atmel chip the normal way a weirdly alien concept. Oh, how sorry I feel for those people -- Iwantthem to figure out how to use "my" technology, but the normal, easy way of programming a chip is a massive mental shift for them. Let aloneactual electronics!

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 10:42:58 pm
content: I really enjoyed this one, thanks!

author: dentaku
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 12:46:27 am
content: Dave does that almost every two weeks on The Amphour. They have a special guest every other show.http://www.theamphour.com/They interviewed Jack quite a while ago.http://www.theamphour.com/the-amp-hour-54-embedded-elchee-epexegesis/Jack also did an episode of embedded.fmhttp://embedded.fm/episodes/2014/5/27/53-being-a-grownup-engineerQuote from: aargee on November 19, 2015, 01:37:31 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 01:07:59 am
content: Quote from: aargee on November 19, 2015, 01:37:31 amI do that every few weeks:http://www.theamphour.com/category/guests

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 01:10:04 am
content: Quote from: electr_peter on November 18, 2015, 06:53:25 pmI tried equalisation using The Levelator (that we use on the Amp Hour every week), it sounded pretty terrible, so left the audio as-is.Setting up proper sound on shoots like this takes time, and I didn't want waste Jack's time for this impromptu thing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 01:11:55 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on November 18, 2015, 07:44:52 pmWhy?Our jobs now are to talk about EE and help/inspire others, why would we no longer be passionate about it?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 01:17:07 am
content: Quote from: Dinsdale on November 18, 2015, 07:24:59 amThanks, but the production side sucked. I just switched on the cam and hoped we'd get something.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 01:43:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2015, 01:17:07 amFwiw, I think you're being too harsh on yourself -- I enjoyed the discussion and could clearly understand everything; I don't have any complaints about the audio!

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 01:45:19 am
content: An awesome watch! Thank you Dave

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 03:53:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2015, 01:10:04 amI was a production sound mixer (sound guy) for many years on thousands of days broadcast and film projects. I had no issues. I was too engaged in the content.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 04:47:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2015, 01:11:55 amI'm making distinction between EE as professional endeavor and EE as a passion and interest. Everyone who comes to this blog obviously has some degree of the latter and I'm all for it.The question in my mind is whether a young person with a passion for EE should choose it as a career.- First, I believe that the career prospects for an EE today are probably the dimmest they've ever been as long as I've worked in the field. That could reverse or accelerate. Hard to say. Chip starts are way down. Electronics products margins are down across the board, and it is margins that encourage and sustain talented engineers. (Commodity business pay for commodity talent.) More board work is being done with people with lesser skills, and quite rightly so, because many many designs do not require much if any high-speed, low-noise, analog, or other "esoterica." I work and live in the SF Bay Area and the reduction in serious EE work is nothing short of startling. VCs are avoiding just about every startup with HW in it. (There are exceptions, but trust me, I've heard it from many VCs)- Second, as your own blog makes clear, you can pursue your passion for EE without making it your career, and that's easier than ever. The tools and the knowledge or more easily accessible than ever.None of that says that someone passionate and clever can't make a great career in EE. But I am firmly in a camp that believes that not everyone who is passionate and clever about EE can make a great career in EE.So, forgive me if I think some uncertainty about going into the field is more than warranted.

author: farsi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2015, 09:22:12 am
content: QuoteInteresting, first time that I hear about ICE, while clones seem cheap on Ebay, new ones are a bit more pricy:http://de.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?st=jtag+ice&catalogId=15001&categoryId=700000005140&langId=-3&storeId=10161- but a mention at Arduino about using programmers would be good indeed. There is only an option for that in the Arduino IDE, but which hardware to use and how to setup is never discussed.About learning embedded development: Besides this forum and datasheet, I currently learn a bit of embedded development from the Nuttx RTOS project. At least, I managed on Linux to build the project and flash a STM32 board. But Arduino is still an option for me to play with a new board or device from e.g. a Kickstarter campaign. Some people tell me they need a project or use case to actually delve into how things work. If you use Arduino you get faster to a working system, but indeed you might lose understanding of finer details.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 05:03:16 pm
content: I can't quite catch the quote at 13:27, because both are talking at the same time. "As engineers, we do numbers. Engineering without numbers is ...."Did anyone get what engineering without numbers is? Dave seemed to consider it a pretty good remark.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 05:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 22, 2017, 05:03:16 pmArt.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 06:26:26 pm
content: I really enjoyed this talk. A venerable greybeard like Jack is a pleasure to listen to and he seems to have a very pleasant and up to date attitude to things.Quote from: Monkeh on August 22, 2017, 05:04:58 pmThanks!