What's the exact step-by-step process to bring 120 and 240v outlets out to shed? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 08:38:52 am
content: As per title I need to put some outlets into my shed. I need not just 120v but 240v as well.Should I buy a small fuse box for the shed? If so, what kind?Do I only need a new fuse box if I have no open fuses on the main box?Any links to very detailed tutorials or an exact step-by-step description of the process would be much appreciated.Thanks

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 09:07:14 am
content: Given the level of your experience, that high energy circuits are involved, and any insurance and legal requirements, I suggest the necessary steps are:use yellow pages (or similar) to find competent professionals with experience of your particular type of electrical installationget quotes from threepay one to do the work safely and legallyenjoy using the shed in the knowledge that there won't be any unpleasant surprises

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 11:22:42 am
content: I have a "shed" (aka barn) on my property. It's about 150 feet from the house. Even though I am in an unincorporated area, there are still requirements that must be met.Bottom line, it has its own meter and box.Your first step should be to find out what is required in your area. Is the project even allowed? Building permits, etc. If you are in an incorporated area (e.g., city), a visit to the building department is in order. If unincorporated area, there will be someone similar a different level. In my case (USA), I would go to the county engineering department.In the past, such visits were usually more productive when done in person. Today, you can probably get by with telephone.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 01:47:37 pm
content: Bingo to both above reply's. If nothing else, if you clearly do something that violates code or standard practices, you run the risk of invalidating your insurance coverage, not to mention getting someone injured or killed. There is good reason no one has published the "Idiots Guide to Mains Electrical Work"

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 02:11:00 pm
content: This is not an electrical site as per say, and electrical codes and regulations vary by region. Since I live in your province, I can tell you we call these pony panels. I googledontario electrical code "pony panel"and got this:https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01T28275wCbHZ8IZkwAn_55zsRsNA:1605621774147&q=ontario+electrical+code+%22pony+panel%22+site:www.electriciantalk.comAt least this can help you do a little un-powered pre-work so you can call a licensed electrician for inspection and final hookup.

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 02:37:45 pm
content: How did you plan to get the power there?? Overhead? Underground??You possibly may not under zoning laws be allowed to do this. Althoughmany 'sneak it in' and then wonder why they come home to an ashpitone day and find insurance won't cover it because it was done illegally.Exact step by step, starting where, Wake up when alarm goes off, look inmirror, say "I don't have a clue how to do this right and don't understandnational unified electrical code or local codes or even fire protection codes",eat breakfast, go do something else........etc. etc.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 05:14:17 pm
content: I'll try to give you a straight answer.I'm sure there are numerous on-line resources to help, but nonetheless:1. Identify an open bay in your main box at the house.2. Determine what load center size is going to be in the shed that the main panel is able to support (60A, 100A, 150A, ETC.)3. Determine how you are going to get there (overhead, buried)4. determine what size and type conductor you need to support the installation method and ampacity5. Select an appropriate circuit breaker for conductor size and install in the open slot in the main panel6. Install load center in shed7. Install and terminate conductors between main panel and shed load center (don't turn on any breakers yet).8. Install appropriate branch circuit breakers in load center.9. Install branch circuits in shed10. Carefully verify all connections.11. Turn on circuit breakers starting at the main panel circuit breaker working downstream to shed branch circuits verifying proper voltage along the way.12. Verify expected voltage at branch circuits.13. Enjoy.Safety, legal and liability disclaimers: NONE

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 05:16:31 pm
content: Quote from: electromateria on November 17, 2020, 08:38:52 amI recommend having an electrician do this. It is not a terribly hard DIY for someone who knows what they are doing, but it doesn't sound like you do. In addition, this board is not the best place to ask for information like this that primarily relates to electrical code. There are other, better forms for this type of question although they will also tell you to get a professional in your case.Code varies by jurisdiction, but here is the high level picture in the US. Canada will be slightly different and there are local variations as well:A detached structure such as a garage or shed can usually have a single 20 amp 120 or 240 V circuit fed from the main building panel. I believe you can also have two 120 V circuits on opposite phases using a shared neutral (i.e., a 240 V circuit split in halves). If you need more than that you will usually need a sub-panel in the shed. The electrician will know the appropriate rules here for your situation and the type of subpanel you need. For instance you probably need one with a primary disconnect, whereas an auxiliary panel in the main building might not.The wiring will need to be overhead or buried. Depending on the type of cable and conduit, it will need to be buried to an appropriate depth. Again, an electrician will know the options for your jurisdiction, and whether overhead is an option in your situation. The necessary gauge of wire depends on the current rating and also whether you are using Romex or THHN in conduit.The sub panel needs to be fed from the main building panel with an appropriately rated breaker. If you don't have free space in your main breaker box it will need to be reorganized or replaced. For instance an electrician might install some double density breakers or combine multiple existing lighting circuits to free up space for the breaker that feeds the subpanel. A professional will know what is allowed here, there are limits to what you can put on a single circuit or how many total breakers can be in a single panel.Depending on your situation the shed might need its own ground rod.I personally do know how to do this properly but I still hired an electrician to do it when I added a 60A subpanel in my garage. However, I am fine installing my own outlets from that subpanel.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 06:40:48 pm
content: I repeat the opinion that you sound like you should have someone else do this for you. That is not an insult, we cannot all be experienced at everything. For example, I would not attempt a gasoline engine teardown/rebuild even though I know the theory.However, there is value in knowing the basic steps so that you can make sure whomever you hire for this does it properly. A few tips:* You must obtain an electrical permit, have this inspected, and have it signed off. Mains electrical and natural gas should be permitted. It will make insurance, home sales, etc. easier even if you don't care about safety while YOU are living there.* If you want 240VAC, you will need two adjacent open circuit breaker slots in your breaker panel. They will receive a dual ganged, mechanically interlocked breaker of the appropriate amperage so that you get both phases (hence 240VAC) and they trip together when either phase has a problem.* You will run four wires from that breaker box to the outbuilding: Phase A (black), Phase B (red), neutral (white), and ground (bare or green). NEC has changed recently such that you must run a ground wireeven if you provide the outbuilding with its own separate grounding rod into the earth. Don't ask how I learned this. Grrrr. {Reaches for pill bottle and blood pressure cuff.}* Those wires should probably be buried. 18 inches deep if in conduit (strongly, STRONGLY recommended) or 24 inches deep if you use "direct bury" cable (strongly discouraged). Use one size larger conduit that the specs say you can get away with, because pulling those wires through all that conduit is a PITA. Do not turn more than four 90 degree corners without a junction box to interrupt the 360 degree total (and realistically 270 is about the limit). EDIT in response to other comments: These should be individual stranded wires of the appropriate gauge, not Romex with an outside sheath. The conduit is considered the sheath in such installations and having an additional sheath violates NEC's heat dissipation requirements unless you dramatically over/undersize things. Just use individual stranded wires.* You will need a small breaker box at the outbuilding. According to code it won't need its own "main" dual-ganged breaker but you should install one anyway (my opinion) because you should really have a way to kill all power without running back to the main house. It will then have a bunch of smaller breakers for the various circuits in the outbuilding, including duals for the 240VAC circuits you claim to need.* Once signed off by the inspector, the new box in the outbuilding should receive a sticker with the inspector's signature.Code has been changing a lot lately regarding the use of AFCI/GFCI breakers, which are about 5X more expensive than standard breakers. They're great, except when powering a arc welder whichby definitioncreates an arc. I mention this because if you're wiring an outbuilding, and if you're talking about 240VAC, you may be thinking about an arc welder. I've had long arguments with inspectors about the insanity of demanding an AFCI breaker (or outlet) on an arc welder circuit. They simply pop all the time, utterly unworkable. Once you're finaled, I'm sure you can imagine ways to solve the problem of having arc-fault devices in an arc welder power circuit. I will leave that as an exercise for the reader.There's lots more, but this will at least allow you to oversee the process while someone else does it. This is all based on US National Electrical Code (NEC) and as noted by others, local jurisdictions may have differing requirements. I'm sure Canada has its own version of its NEC, too. Very often local jurisdictions "adopt" some year version of the national code and then impose their own separate requirements for things about which local politicians believe they are smarter than folks who actually do this stuff for a living every day (and who write the NEC!). There are also varying thresholds for what you, as a homeowner, are allowed to do for yourself. Here in Idaho you can do anything (and I have!) as long as you get a permit and it passes inspection. But I've been told that in some cities you are not even allowed to replace a broken outlet or switch without hiring a licensed electrician. YMMV. EDIT: I just remembered one exception, even in free-wheelin' Idaho... you cannot wire in your own automatic generator switch. They really don't like it when somebody does it wrong and it "automatically" energizes the power pole wires outside your home when the line crews are trying to fix a power outage. People die that way.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 06:59:35 pm
content: Two responders have given you direct information. And between them they have still missed some details that apply in most jurisdictions, like deeper burial for conduit under a driveway. And many local jurisdictions have more rules. Which is why most have recommended that you hire a professional. I have done quite a bit of my own installation. But I know the risks I am taking, own and have read a copy of the NEC and have watched and learned some pretty experienced people. And I also will recommend that you get professional help. You may be able to find a local electrician that will plan your installation for you, and check periodically on your work as well as facilitating the permitting process. This would combine the best of both worlds. Saving some money, learning something about what you are doing and getting it right and legal.As one more inducement, have you gone to your local big box hardware store or electrical supply warehouse and viewed the myriad of wire types, enclosure types and fittings they stock? Do you understand the purposes and differences between them? The answers probably tell you something.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2020, 07:02:07 pm
content: QuoteDo you have swa? steel wire armoured cable?much easier to work with,no need specialist tools to bend and unlike some conduit, wont rust.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2020, 02:07:31 am
content: If you add a remote building sub panel to your existing house electrical system, here are a few considerations that might help.1. What is the rating of your existing electrical service; the main breaker size? What is the maximum existing load and do you have enough available power to do what you want with the shed?2. If you install this yourself, get a copy of the regulations for your area and read them carefully. If you install this yourself with a permit, study the regulations very carefully; every electrical inspector I have ever met has their own quirky things they like to pick on and most will pick on a non-professional twice as hard. A permit is a two edged sword. Worst case the authorities may make you upgrade your existing electrical and bring it all up to present code, they may condemn the shed and/ or make you bring it to present code in all aspects, they may require approved drawings, charge you a lot for the permit and inspections then add the upgrade value to your property tax base. On the other hand, you won’t have as much hassle with your insurance if there is a fire and when it comes time to sell there won’t be a claim that it wasn’t done with a permit. Actually getting a permit is up to you.3. For the sub panel in the shed, get one with a main breaker to allow you to turn off all of the branch circuits in the shed quickly and easily.4. If plastic conduit is allowed underground, it is the way to go. In some places and situations, you may have to use rigid conduit above ground, but transition to plastic where buried. Bury it to code depth or deeper; put sand or small rounded gravel around the conduit and warning plastic ribbon above the conduit to warn later diggers that it is there. Also bury a single insulated wire outside the conduit to allow easy location later and label its purpose on both ends.5. Run a ground conductor as well as the power and neutral conductors; don’t just rely on a ground rod at the shed6. Your best bet is to find a qualified practicing electrician that likes to take side jobs and will work with you. You can do all the grunt work and the electrician can advise you as well as doing the final connections. Most of the Sparkys I’ve known would jump at a chance to make a few extra dollars as long as you can convince them that you won’t become a problem.

author: electromateria
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2020, 03:28:04 am
content: Thanks for the advice guys. This is something I'm going to have to re-visit in the future. I decided I'm going to stick with my current crappy setup for now: running a 15 year old electrical cord from my house into my shed lol. Sadly that means I can't use my 240v / 3HP motor for a while. You guys gave me enough logical reasons to not go forward. It's not worth dealing with potential insurance problems, grumpy inspectors, or meddling bylaw goons. I also don't really feel like paying thousands for an electrician.Maybe my brother and law can do it but he's really busy and it's not a small job. Or is it? What's the approximate time it takes? The wire would be run overhead (I'm just assuming that's legal - he would know for sure).

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2020, 04:14:47 am
content: Quote from: electromateria on November 18, 2020, 03:28:04 amIt might be less than you imagine. For reference, I paid $850 in southern California (i.e., expensive) rates to get a 70 amp panel put in my garage. That included parts and labor. The big advantage I had was that there was already existing conduit for the part of the run that went under the driveway so he didn't have to dig and bury anything. This is an area where you might be able to make a deal to save a bit of money. If you can trench and install conduit so the electrician just has to pull the wire and terminate it you would save a bunch of money. You want to talk to the electrician first to make sure you bury the right kind of conduit to the right depth.QuoteIf your brother in law is an electrician or has experience working with them definitely talk to him rather than random people on the internet. He will be more familiar with the local rules and your particular situation than we are. He will be able to tell you if overhead runs would be allowed, how much local electricians would charge, and even if he is too busy might recommend someone who could do it.The size of the job depends. The electrical part is pretty easy. The size of the job mostly depends on how hard it is to get the wires where you need to go and how much you have to patch up where you had to cut.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2020, 06:27:15 am
content: I'm not going to go deep into this but there is a very critical issue involving NEUTRAL and GROUND when you add a sub-panel. Do this wrong and every time storm hits, your equipment get damaged.... It's not just matter of getting a good ground either.When you hire someone to do something like this, one of the biggest cost will be digging up the ground. If you hire a contractor/electrician, communicate with him and see if you can do this part yourself. You could save significant money that way.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2020, 12:36:44 pm
content: Quote from: electromateria on November 18, 2020, 03:28:04 amI remember a story of something like that.An electrician went to a farm adding some connections to the barn.He found that there were only a single conduit feeding the building, can't remember how the other one was connected.The electirian followed the wire over the yard, to the side of a field and to a barbwire there.Then to the main house from the other end of the barbwire, can't remember how it was with the fuse.Explanation was that wires are expensive and it's a remote area and nobody goes there.The story is from a collection of dangerous examples that used to be a part of an electrical safety exam prep.The collection also included deadly cases, if memory serves the barbwire wasn't one of them.