Beresheet moon lander crashes... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 08:08:06 pm
content: Too bad...https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/04/a-private-spacecraft-from-israel-will-attempt-a-moon-landing-thursday/

author: electromotive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 08:31:38 pm
content: That’s unfortunate. Maybe the new Chinese lunar rover will fare better. Still impressive that they came as close as they did to a successful mission.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 08:36:54 pm
content: What a shame it didn't landYou know you've played too many Space Sim games when you are watching the telemetry in the live stream and say.... "That doesn't add up... not much slowing down... I hope that it gets really light as they burn off the remaining 90 kgs of fuel... how can you get through that fuel quick enough? Oh.... THAT does not look good..."(oh, and Falcon Heavy launch in a couple of hours)PS. Was it just me or did the live stream cut? Or did it just go bad really fast when they rebooted the system?

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2019, 08:45:27 pm
content: I don't speak Hebrew, but I thought I heard something that sounded like "telemetry loss" a couple of times towards the end.

author: electromotive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 12:45:53 am
content: Quote from: bsudbrink on April 11, 2019, 08:45:27 pm"We seem to have a problem with our main engine.""We are resetting the spacecraft to try to enable the engine""We have the main engine back on."*telemetry cuts out**emergency call-out to JPL*"The main engine is back on, but we've lost communication with the spacecraft."*noun and verb code call-outs*"We've lost it. We've lost it."

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 01:01:13 am
content: Sounds like a delay from the reboot.I keep imagining a message like this: "Performing update 1 of 3. Do not turn off your computer".

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 01:17:04 am
content: TheBBC articletalked to the engine manufacturer. They're saying the difficulty is from using the same engine for propulsion to the moon and also descent. A certain amount of CYA is going to be involved in the explanation since it was their engine that didn't start up properly...Quote

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 01:57:39 am
content: And at a cost of $100 million, it was done on a shoestring, as space expenditures go for.Even if it crashed, it still qualifies as a landing, although a pretty rough one.

author: electromotive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 05:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 12, 2019, 01:01:13 amThe noun / verb call out had me wondering that as well. It's as if the engine re-initialized, but then didn't know which procedure it was supposed to complete afterward. By that point, impact would have been just seconds away.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 06:07:17 pm
content: According to the article they think it got rid of ~98% of its approach speed. Unfortunately this isn't horseshoes, so close doesn't count. Even 99% would probably not have been survivable.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 07:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 12, 2019, 06:07:17 pmWell, may be it is not counted as a "landing" but "hitting" the moon is still an impressive accomplishment. Granted, it is a lot easier to get that close with today's technology than in 1968 (the first human lunar orbiting), but given the distance involve, reaching just the vicinity of the moon is not easy.Approx distance to moon ~ quarter million milesApprox diameter of the moon ~ 2100 milesLet just be generous and let the target be 2500 miles, that is a bull's eye of 2500 miles @ 250,000 miles away, moving target, with changing wind condition along the way. (wind as in gravity, strength and direction changing all along the way from earth to moon.)Very impressive given it is just their first try.I think the discussion in Israel probably is: "I know we are on a budget, but next time we probably shouldn't source our stuff from AliExpress... I really wonder about that MCU with the sanded off label that we used for our rocket controller board... But you know, it was so cheap it was almost like free... "

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 08:13:07 pm
content: Height: 0.149 KmDesc. Rate: 134.3 m/sGround speed: 946.7 m/sNot a lot you can do?

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2019, 09:07:57 pm
content: Well there Drones are still an sucess and kill tousend of innocent People.Israeli Technique is made for war and not for peace.And Yes I still buy there stuff because it work for the intend use.

author: electromotive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 02:50:18 am
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on April 12, 2019, 08:13:07 pmI'll convert some of the values for non-metric users as well.Height: 488.84 ftDesc. Rate: 440.62 ft/s (300.42 mph or 483.48 kmh)Ground speed: 3105.97 ft/s (2117.71 mph or 3408.12 kmh)Based on that telemetry data, the lander crashed 1.094 seconds later, after traveling a further 3,445.877 ft. (1.05 km) horizontal distance.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 03:02:04 am
content: Scott manly did a good rundown, basically the lander was in complete freefall, though it was reporting that it was burning fuel, which left me confused unless it was just a calculated value based on burn time.Equally the reset happened essentially at the point where no matter what they did, they did not have enough delta-V to get out of the situation.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 03:07:02 am
content: They weren't doing too bad with the vertical velocity.Just think - if they were able to get the vertical velocity down a little bit more, they could have established a record for the closest lunar fly-by. That would be a seat-of-the-pants ride .... 50m above the lunar surface at over 3,000 km/h.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 06:51:28 am
content: given the push into artificial intelligence this is a bit unexpected.maybe stick to Temple building & land acquisitions back on earth!

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 07:12:52 am
content: it does show one very important thing,they arent short of money and SHOULD NOT be parrasitically sucking money out of the u.s. and germany every year.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 05:27:12 pm
content: It was under powered and to reach the Moon they had to make multiple burns right at periapse to maximize efficiency instead of just one long TLI burn. I'm guessing all those engine restarts contributed to the failure.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 04:51:20 am
content: So I guess the classic saying now becomes "Does a Beresheet on the moon?"

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 11:14:06 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 14, 2019, 04:51:20 amisraeli ones sheet everywhere.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 11:51:44 am
content: Thanks to all here who actually addressed the lander story and didn't feel they had to throw in their personal biases against Israel.The crash was a huge disappointment here, because this mission had tons of publicity - especially since the launch in February - and everyone was all worked up. Personally, even though I know Hebrew very well and I'm familiar with at least some of the jargon, I couldn't figure out whatexactlywent wrong. The media accounts so far are pretty much useless.The landing process was supposed to be fully automatic, to land safely even with no communications at all. It's clear that the main engine did not fire as expected, so the lander didn't slow down in the critical phase of descent, but the telemetry was far more confusing than that. First it showed some problem with one of the Inertial Measurement Units, then there was a communications blackout, and then it appeared as though the enginewasfiring while the acceleration data indicated it definitelywasn't.I can only assume it would take a deep technical dive to sort this out, and unfortunately that kind of data is not available publicly (yet?). The good news is that we're going to try again

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 12:17:34 pm
content: At-least they're not trying to claim that the moon was out of position.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 03:11:31 pm
content: Space is hard. And the fact that a non-government enterprise was able to make it to the Moon, is an achievement on its own. I am sure that next time they will succeed.I had also feared that this thread would become political ugly pretty quickly. But as I have mentioned previously, this forum is quite polite and civilized. The comments here have been quite tame compared to what I have read elsewhere.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 03:41:56 pm
content: I'm all for space exploration and don't really care much who does it. This failure was definitely disappointing. I hope their next attempt is successful.

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 05:17:17 pm
content: https://www.mynewsdesk.com/no/nammo/pressreleases/nammos-british-rocket-engine-powers-israels-mission-to-the-moon-2838630

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 08:23:31 pm
content: i read on another forum that it was shot by aliens with the message "we told you not to come back!"

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 08:37:35 pm
content: Quote from: stj on April 14, 2019, 08:23:31 pmThat explains why the Chinese went through all the trouble of landing a probe on the far side of the moon. Those pesky near-side aliens!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 04:20:39 am
content: Quote from: igendel on April 14, 2019, 11:51:44 amI'm glad to hear that.To have achieved as much as it had from a first attempt is an admirable result. It would be a shame to have come so close and not try again.בהצלחה

author: electromotive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 04:44:50 am
content: Quote from: stj on April 13, 2019, 07:12:52 amIt was largely funded by an Israeli billionaire.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 07:57:16 am
content: Quote from: electromotive on April 15, 2019, 04:44:50 amNo point feeding the troll.For anyone interested in the details, yes, the X-prize contest terms required that the funding will be from the private sector and not governmental. Therefore, most of the money came from donations - 40% of it from that one billionaire. In return, besides developing the lander, SpaceIL did and are still doing endless lectures and activities in schools and such all over the country, to advance interest in science and math.When the contest was cancelled (and with it, the promised $20M prize), the government added a few million dollars, probably just to claim the credit as governments usually do...

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 09:14:15 am
content: Quote from: electromotive on April 15, 2019, 04:44:50 amOne of Madoff's mates ?Seriously though, I don't know where they get their cash but that's a LOT of money to blow on useless benefit big boys toys,when it can be used to promote existing technology to grow FOOD and get more WATER happening in the middle east,and of course solar power etcAs usual, too many networking hell bound wankers with too much money and media control, wasting their lives doing no one any favors

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 11:24:25 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 15, 2019, 09:14:15 amOh so funny, I'm cracking a rib here.Quote from: Electro Detective on April 15, 2019, 09:14:15 amMorris Kahn (selected paragraphs from Wikipedia):He is a principal investor in Aurum Ventures and the clean tech water company Atlantium that uses UV rays to disinfect water [...] In 2016 Aurum Ventures invested $3 million in a new method of diagnosing cancer [...]Time to Know is a digital education platform which Kahn first launched as a nonprofit organization focused on improving grade school education.Kahn supports the work of “Save a Child’s Heart,” (SACH) an organization that brings Israeli doctors around the world to perform life-saving surgery and medical monitoring for children of all races, religions, nationalities, and economic status.The Morris Kahn Initiative is a $4 million program to help develop pioneering cancer research at Tel Aviv University. The initiative’s aim is to develop 3D cancer modeling of live cancer tumors.“Big Data Maccabi,” founded with contributions from Kahn, will help medical professionals to diagnose illness using the information collected during blood tests, imaging and other diagnostic testing.He supports Serious Fun, a camp for children with terminal illness, and a therapeutic horse-riding camp for the disabled.Kahn founded Zalul in 1999, a non-profit foundation which cleans bodies of water in Israel.But I guess you know better, huh?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 12:11:14 am
content: Lighten up matevia your borrowed Wiki reference, he sounds like a well meaning bloke, but apparently not managing his and or other peoples money very well,blowing it on "Space.. the final frontier" projects/gambles that even decades of past and present pros in the game still can't get right,some of the burnt smarter and or poorer ones throwing in the toweland moving on with reality, like promoting tech goods and services usable down here on Earth,and earning some old school boring profit, with percentages going into debt stressed -serial optimistic junkie- investor pocketsFWIW: the gent is almost 90 years old, perhaps over it and getting a bit slow upstairs,and people may be putting the touch on him for space explortation money directly,and indirectly via feeding frenzy supplier contracts and middleman activities.That's how serious wealth/businesses can go, if the head person isn't on the ball 24/7,or their appointed managers have their heads above the clouds. Hey, it's not their money to gamble or lose, right?Anyways, I wish the gent and his family well in all other matters,and brush up on the losing money lesson "once bitten twice shy"and let the next 'can do' billionaire in the queue have a go at it