ZB/HL Series and T962A+ Reflow Ovens - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: iwbnwif
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 07:11:35 pm
content: Hi, this is my first post here...I have recently got back into electronics after a 15-year gap.I've designed my first SMT board and will shortly need to assemble it. There are a further 3 designs to come with progressively increasing component counts - up to ~100 components. I doubt I will ever make more than 3 of each board - so basically hobby work.I'm pretty okay with hand placing as there's nothing smaller than 0804, but I might end up using PQFP type packages. Therefore, I think reflow is best / necessary.I've read and watched a lot about the T962 and T962A. Maybe with the mods they are okay, but I am not that sure.What I didn't see was any review or comments on the T962A+ - has it fixed any of the problems of the T962/A or is it just a bit bigger and more powerful?What is more interesting to me is the ZB....HL series (ZB2015HL, ZB2520HL and ZB3530HL).https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Authorized-Infrared-IC-Heater-Reflow-Solder-Oven-BGA-SMD-SMT-Rework-Station-Reflow-Wave-Oven/32830782709.htmlFrom the pictures this looks like a better designed unit, but who knows what lays beneath. I cannot find any reviews of this oven at all, but I don't think it is a re-badged T962. The RS-232 interface is interesting, but the example pictures show Windows XP so difficult to know if the software is even supported. It does imply the product has been around for a while, so it is rather surprising there are no obvious reviews.I would very much appreciate any observations about this oven. Thanks!

author: Stavos122
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 06:18:29 pm
content: All of the software screenshots are in Chinese. Description states its bilingual menu. I would double check with the seller

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 05:00:29 am
content: Those IR ovens tend to heat the PCB not very uniformly.A standard convection kitchen type oven distributes the heat more evenly, and is a lot cheaper too.There are a bunch of after market / open source controllers available for programming heat profiles.But for occasional soldering, a hand held hot air gun is also a good start.

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 10:51:05 am
content: I am also in the market for a reflow oven and I'm having a hard time finding something for low volume prototyping that isn't in the multi $k range. Like you I came across one of those oven ZB2520HL and would love to hear from someone who acquired one. For me the big step up from the T962 is this "heating method:hot air circulation + Infrared radiation heating" which should really help with heat uniformity.

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 10:59:03 am
content: A follow up on my previous post... I finally found a handful of reviews here:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Authorized-Infrared-IC-Heater-Reflow-Solder-Oven-BGA-SMD-SMT-Rework-Station-Reflow-Wave-Oven/32830798619.htmland they look positive.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 02:55:03 pm
content: the ZB..HL series seems to have a hot air function along with IR, but I have no idea how it actually works.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 03:35:02 pm
content: for me it looks like these infrared tubes are way to close to the PCB. By this you definitely will have hot spots and not an uniform temperature. And beside of this: these infrared tubes are pretty slow with heating up and cooling down (all the ones I know, there might be quick one though), thus following any profile might may not be possible. But it looks like this oven is new and somebody has to bite and to make a review.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 03:56:58 pm
content: I use a GE toaster oven with a thermocouple controller able to do "ramp and soak", meaning, a rising temperature profile, hold, rise again, hold, and then fall. The whole works was a little over $100, maybe $150. It also has a solid state relay on a heat sink. The secret is I have TINY thermocouple wire that I can poke into a plated through hole on the board, so it is controlling ACTUAL PCB temperature. I can do up to 6 small boards at a time, or one all the way up to a letter size piece of paper.My controller is an Omega CN4800, but I'm not sure all versions of the 4800 have the ramp and soak feature. (A slight downside of this model is times are set in hours or minutes, it would have been more flexible to be able to set degrees/second ramps, but it all works, anyway.)Jon

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 06:35:13 pm
content: I have 8 thermo couplers and I'm considering acquiring one to see how it does. I could arrange the sensors in a grid pattern and plot the temperature against the reflow profile of the oven to compare.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 08:33:24 pm
content: Quote from: AllSySt3msG0 on May 26, 2018, 06:35:13 pmThe big problem is IR absorbance of the PC board and components. The thermocouple sitting out in the air is maybe 300 C cooler than the PC boards?One time I forgot to poke the thermocouple into the board, and the boards CAUGHT FIRE! They were totally flambee'd blackened to a crisp!So, I'm not sure your test would have any relevance to an actual board.Jon

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 10:04:53 pm
content: Are there any reasonably priced ready-made convection reflow ovens?

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2018, 06:23:09 pm
content: I would love a "just works" solution too that is not priced in thousands of $.I'll give it until Friday and will acquirehttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/Authorized-Infrared-IC-Heater-Reflow-Solder-Oven-BGA-SMD-SMT-Rework-Station-Reflow-Wave-Oven/32830798619.html,will report back...

author: sairfan1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2018, 06:49:55 pm
content: Hi,I'm also planning to buy ZB2520HL or may be ZB2015HL can you please advise how was your experience?Previously I was looking for QS-5100 as it has agv. reviews, but i came across this post and planning to buy ZB series. My firend has T962 series and its not good.Thanks.

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 11:36:02 am
content: Finally went for it, I will report when it gets in...

author: sairfan1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 03:54:46 pm
content: I have been received mine, did not get time to play with it. for Canada i would recommend choose FedEx shipping that is the most cheaper one.

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 04:14:40 pm
content: Oh really nice!Will you open the case to see if they still have that smelly masking tape inside? I am also looking forward to see if the heat distribution is more even this time.

author: sairfan1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 09:33:51 pm
content: Yes sure, next week i will get time and will let you know, one more thing only order to official store, i put my order to some different supplier even after 10 days he did not ship the order, i opened dispute and canceled my order, then i found official store and they shipped in 4 days.

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 09:43:52 pm
content: Do you have a link to the official store? I have put an order here this morning:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Authorized-Infrared-IC-Heater-Reflow-Solder-Oven-BGA-SMD-SMT-Rework-Station-Reflow-Wave-Oven/32830798619.html

author: sairfan1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 03:25:09 am
content: Yes, that's where i bought.

author: brandongoode
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 01:31:15 pm
content: sairfan1 & AllSySt3msG0 -- How has your experience been with your new ZB reflow ovens? I'm looking at replacing my old reflow toaster oven and would love to hear about how the ZB preforms.

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 02:59:17 pm
content: The unit came in yesterday but I didn't have time to unpack it yet.I am planning to unbox and post pictures later today... maybe do a tear down to see if they got rid of that awful masking tape too.

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 09:55:16 pm
content: Ok so I unboxed and took some pictures of the ZB2520HL Reflow Oven, those are available here:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/54w0j2cjrh8rtwq/AAAUO2Mk5uoaoW6EsbRtzIpma?dl=0Comments so far:- The box was pretty banged up in one place, the oven itself shows no sign of problem yet though.- I asked for the 110V version, it came with a beefy molded plug on a H05VV-F 3G 2.5mm cable which seems to be rated for 25AMP.- The fuse at the back of the unit is a F20AL250V which is a fast blow 20Amp fuse.- There was a significant ding protruding from the front of the tray, looks like something hit it very hard from inside.- The unit feels robust, the case doesn't have lateral movement, good rubber footings, the tray slides well and has a magnet to hold it closed.- I needed to pull a bit on the side fan grill to prevent it from rubbing against the fan, it was making a very loud whirring noise.- As soon as the back power button is ON, the side fan turns ON and emits roughly 58dB from 1 meter away.- Pressing the power button under the display illuminates it and gives access to the pictured menu in english.- The material inside the tray and the oven looks like those insulated aluminum wafers found in toasters.Thats it for now, tomorrow I will take some time and pop the top off to see what the inside looks likeEdit:Ok I lied, I couldn't wait until tomorrow... I added 4 pictures showing the inside when you pop the top off, so far no sign of the awful masking tape and no obvious wiring problem (ground looks decent). I don't have a board ready for soldering yet but I will lay a couple of scrap pcb pieces, start the reflow, at the peak of the reflow profile I will open the tray and check what the temp looks like with a thermal camera.

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 07:11:17 pm
content: So I did a test today without solder, just to see how the machine behaves exactly...I laid out the boards that would have been reflowed so that they are propped up by a stack of two "scrap" boards. You can see in the attachments how those boards were arranged, what the machine looked like from the outside with a thermal camera and also what the board looked like when I opened the tray at the beginning of the cooling phase.The machine was using around 970 watt (around 8 amp) of power constantly during the temperature ramp up throughout the profile. During the temperature hold moments the temperature was oscillating wildly as the elements were turned on/off.During the weld phase around 200C I could smell some plastic or strange smell emanating from the machine.The rear fan only turned on during the cooling phase, I have yet to figure out if the machine truly has a forced air / convection feature.Edit:I took out the endoscope and took some snapshots of the inside of the oven, we can see the IR tubes, thermocouples protruding from the top and also a grill on top of the tubes. My guess is that the fan that turns on as soon as the machine is powered on is used to cool down the electronics and that air seeps to the main "cooking" area. This will require more investigation...

author: brandongoode
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 11:14:43 am
content: AllSySt3msG0 - Thanks for all the info and the great pics. Would love to hear how your first batch of PCBs turns out.

author: flasonsmts
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 09:44:21 am
content: IR reflow oven heating speed is fast but now most reflow oven are hot air convection reflow oven for common PCB production.Why, this is because the infrared reflow oven has some shortage:1. unlimited temperature increasing, infrared reflow oven heating PCB fastly and the temperature increasing won't be a limited number, if sometimes the conveyor stopped or PCB board dropped, the infrared reflow oven can heating the PCB to 800°C or more than 1000°C. because it don't have detector of the PCB temperature. but hot air reflow oven won't be this, you setting the heating zones temperature 200°C, when reach 200°C, the reflow oven will stopped increasing temperature. even board dropped or conveyor stopped, it won't increase the temperature.2. If the PCB has big components or big components too closed to small components, the big components will take too much heat, and small components has few heat, this will make the PCB temperature diviation not equally. and the components color different will also make different temperature diviation. black component temperature is higher than silver and white one. it's hard to control the temperature on each place of the PCB. hot air reflow temperature don't have this problem, every component got similar heat, temperature ramup equally.3. so now most reflow oven in the SMT assembly line is hot air convection reflow oven. But infrared reflow oven or infrared heating method still has it's postion in SMT field , some big components need much heat in few time. some place need thermal ramup fastly or getting enough heat, still need infrared heating method. Especially used in the through hole reflow soldering feild.

author: Hrvoje
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 03:42:43 pm
content: can you share some manual in English? I have zb5040HL that i bought on taobao recently but would like to switch to English if possible and dont have resoruces.If someone is interested I can share pictures later.Regards,Hrvoje

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:06:59 pm
content: Hi Hrvoje,The dropbox link contains a scan of the english user manual I received:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/54w0j2cjrh8rtwq/AAAUO2Mk5uoaoW6EsbRtzIpma?dl=0

author: Hrvoje
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 07:33:50 pm
content: tnx a lot!Quote from: AllSySt3msG0 on June 29, 2018, 09:43:52 pmHere is link on taobao where I boughthttps://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=556313026531you can use services like Bhiner to ship

author: matt-b
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 02:32:07 pm
content: @AllSySt3msG0 Have you ascertained how (if at all) the forced air works on the ZB2520HL yet?I notice, in the picture you took showing the inside of the unit from the top, the back of a shaded pole motor. What is that used for?Matt.

author: paulfish
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 10:58:54 am
content: Hi, I'm really keen to find out this oven performs. Very close to buying the ZB3530HL version to do a panel of 24 boards 280x320 in dimension. It really needs to even heat distribution across the tray, I'm shooting for lead free. Thanks Paul

author: grg183
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2019, 07:27:55 am
content: @AllSySt3msG0 have you been able to test this oven further ? ...I'm considering to buy one and would be great to know what your experience was over some PCB batches maybe. Thanks!

author: AllSySt3msG0
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 03:45:31 am
content: Hi sorry for the late reply, things got busy but I'm resuming on my project and in the meantime I'll try fo reflow an smd soldering kit that I found online. I'll post the results!

author: flydrive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 08:46:28 am
content: Let me add a +1 for a review of this machine, particularly whether or not it circulates some air whilst running which might make it a little less prone to burning boards than the T962 series ones. I'm interested in the 3530 model because I need to go as large as ATX size and it would be super to have some idea if this company produces decent machines before dropping $600 on it.Also in the running is the T962C, my thinking there being that the largest of the T962 models may be a little better than the small ones and I'd need at least the 'A' model to get the ATX size.

author: DanielSkevington
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 09:59:45 am
content: Also interested. I was looking for something to do batches of roughly eurocard sized boards but I now have something on with a much larger board, around 370x160mm so I'd like to know how some of the larger ovens perform.

author: Shayshez
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 05:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: AllSySt3msG0 on January 27, 2019, 03:45:31 amDid you used the oven?

author: Vahoo
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 06:31:25 pm
content: HI dear AllSySt3msG0, I bayed ZB2015HL, I need software for PC, thanks!

author: mrguen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 01, 2020, 05:16:39 pm
content: Still difficult to find info on this machine and not selling much. Since I bouth the T-962 after reading many good reviews, I am cautious. Can we have some feedback after some time of real use, from AllSySt3msG0 and others?- How does it compares to T-962? Particularly for fine pitch components. I need to find a good machine to solder QFN44 with EP...- The thermocouples are also in the air... did someone tried to place thermocouples on the PCBs?- Did you test the real vs theoretical temp?- What is the maximum reflowing temperature? Could you send the user's manual?Thanks

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 05:02:11 am
content: I wish they have a lever to pull up and down the thermocouple tip so it can touch the PCB rather than hanging in the air.Even on conveyor belt reflow oven, they would tie the thermocouple to a board during test run to ensure the profile is okay.Not sure whether the ZB series is actually made by Puhui as Puhui was one of the first that came out with these desktop oven.

author: mrguen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 06:55:17 am
content: I just found this videoIt is in Japanese but it showsa complete profile real vs theoretical temperature. The difference between the thermocouple temp and PCB temp is important from -10°c to +25°c. I suppose it is not possible to do better with IR. It is visible that the board heats very differently from the air. Also it does heat very slowly. The profile takes 15 minutes to run entirely!So I will probably stick with my modified T-962 with software upgrade, temp sensor, 4 IR tubes and the thermocouple wire passing outside the machine so I can place them directly on the PCB from the bottom of the apparel.But, the problem is now that when trying to reflow with lead-free solder paste, it needs 245-250°c. The added IR tubes are not exactly at the same height and maybe not exactly the same power so it creates heating unbalance. Also the temperature gradiant of 40°C from the left to the right of the trailer is stil there. So potentially there ismore than 40°c difference on the total reflowing area. This might produce more than 290°c locally and it burns the PCB (and possibly something else!) The only solution I found is using low temp solder paste but that might not be good neither.Myconclusion today regarding low cost IR oven: they are not appropriate for precise lead-free solderingbecause:- Lack of temperature precision / homogeneity that will lead to grapping and/or burning.- Too slow ramping up / down of the temperature. It needs at least 1°c/s. They reach 0.5°c/s at best. The thermal mass is just too big.- The different mods available won't be enough.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 09:24:18 am
content: QuoteFirst of all, you know that different surfaces absorb heat radiation differently due to colour and structure.The reflow oven controls the air temperature, if you want to compare the air temperatures in the oven, you have to shield the IR radiation at the sensor from top heaters. This also includes the sensor cable!A mixed PCB has components in different colors, you get different surface temperatures on the components which is normal.If the oven has a larger chamber and air circulation, this will compensate the effect a little bit.Also the distance between the top heater and the PCB is important to get an even heat distribution.I own a 10000€ IR oven with a surface thermocouple sensor, a bottom heater in dark IR, hot air registers and top heaters in dark IR and light IR.Even under these conditions it is not easy to achieve the perfect profile under all soldering conditions.It always requires testing and experience of what needs to be changed on the profile to achieve the perfect result.These ovens are not to be compared with a 9 zone soldering line.If absolutely uniform soldering temperatures are required, a vapour phase soldering system is the best choice.My personal experience shows that these reflow ovens achieve good results if you are able to adjust the profiles correctly.And don't buy too small oven.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 10:58:29 am
content: We ran mesh conveyor FIR ovens with 4/5 zones for years. The temperatures you set on the zones (which on ours were essentially the element temps) were way above the temps you would measure on the PCB with some thermocouples. If you kept within its limitations this kind of setup works OK, FIR is sold as "not colour sensitive" but that's a bit of a stretch and even tho' our example was essentially a pure IR oven there was clearly a decent qty of heat transfer from air during the profile which added to the inconsistency of the result as that air clearly gets hotter during the days running or cooled if you put something massive through it.Our new Heller has profile setpoints not dissimilar to the paste profile requirements and the PCB can reach all of them just as it gets to the end of the zone with the exception of the liquidous zone that's set a little higher than it can reach in the time its in there (and you wouldn't want it to).

author: mrguen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:22:38 pm
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on August 13, 2020, 09:24:18 amWell, that would be interesting to get some details. I see again and again demands of feedback about these ovens, without answers. (see the last onehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/zb-series-reflow-oven/)Personally I can't properly solder boards with lead free solder paste with my T-962 even after adding 2 IR tubes. Which is logical since they are not presented as lead free ovens, which is obvious with an intended max temp of 250°c.But if you succeed, could you tell us which oven model you used and if it was with lead free solder paste. Also which solder paste and profile?What exactly do you mean by adjusting the profile? Do you spare one or a couple of boards each time you need to assemble a batch?

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 11:16:20 am
content: I do lead free with my T962 regularly.From my experience 4 layer boards with loads of copper work much better than 2 layer boards without massive flooding.You definitly have to have long soak/preheat phases. Huge boards (bigger than maybe 150x100mm is the limit) are also a problem... I guess the copper compensates some of the IR problems.However, with these restrictions the t962 does work reliably.73