Overpriced Stuff........ - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 11:58:20 pm
content: I looked around and didn't see a general thread dedicated to electronics stuff that is obviously more expensive that is should be. So here is it.There is obviously a grey area here, where the manufacturer needs to recoup some engineering cost, but sometimes it's just expensive because it can be. (or sold to the government, as noted below)Post up.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 11:59:45 pm
content: This is a breakout board to go from a JLink EDU Mini to the full size connector.https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/segger-microcontroller-systems/8.06.02%2520J-LINK%25209-PIN%2520CORTEX-M%2520ADAPTER/2421158?At $42.50 this breakout board is more expensive than the actual JLink (if they were actually in stock anywhere to buy)::Update:: I think this is essentially the same thing:https://www.adafruit.com/product/2094$4.95 like it should be!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 12:02:34 am
content: Not test equipment, but how about a $200K record player?https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/products/acoustic-signature-invictus-neo-turntable?Anyway, sometimes things are expensive because they are low volume and have a relatively inefficient production process.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 12:18:45 am
content: QuoteIts for the government

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 12:35:46 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 01, 2023, 12:18:45 amHow about when it compounds... "mil-spec" crimp pin crimper!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 01:47:01 am
content: Overpriced Stuff?Pretty much everything at the moment. Even pasta. So.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 03:05:05 am
content: Solder paste and flux are two that immediately come to mind! Dear, Lord!

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 04:36:21 am
content: Bendix 6900. I just want a pretty one for my shelf.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 06:07:25 am
content: Just go ahead on Digi-Key, pick any category and reverse sort by price.You will find things like $1000 opamps, LDOs, CAN transcievers etc... because they are some sort of milspec, space specified, extreme temperature range etc..Also industrial stuff can be ridiculously expensive for what it is. You can easily pay 100s of bucks for a simple temperature sensor or indicator light.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 07:19:10 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 01, 2023, 12:02:34 amWho buys such a thing. Not my taste anyway, this new fangled design.About overinflated prices, just look on aliexpress at stuff you bought a couple of years back and compare it with the prices now. Times two to three easy.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 09:25:25 am
content: Any hardware containing the words 'enterprise', 'pro' or 'Apple'.Actually it is not the stupid pricing that's the problem, it's the STUPID PAYING. People, just stop.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2023, 09:38:45 am
content: Audiophile or audio grade are often terms which overinflate the price.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 09:28:17 pm
content: Most SMD to breadboard breakout adapters. You can order for yourself a se of say TSSOP to 2.54mm breadboard pin self-designed PCBs dirt cheap, but buying such adapters as pre-made products (not with any SMD part on them yet though) is perhaps 10 times the price. This may only be the case for low volume users since the very cheap PCB houses have come in to existence, the prices for adapter boards would have looked more reasonable when ordering PCBs was trickier/pricier.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 08:16:09 am
content: flux cleaner spray. If you use as intended, you get very little out of a can. Easy to use a whole can on a standard size equipment PCB (i.e. 10x8 inches).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 09:14:31 am
content: HDMI cables from these guysFeaturing 72V bias technology for... er... ummm... better something or other?

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 11:48:22 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 03, 2023, 09:14:31 amThose prices are even dumber than I thought possible. $50k for a pair of 12-foot, 10 gauge speaker wires with connectors. For $15 you can make your own, even if you stick with such oversized wire.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 05:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 03, 2023, 08:16:09 amYes, it’s easy to do that, but entirely unnecessary. You don’t use it by drenching the board and rinsing over and over, you use small amounts through wipes. Think of the way you clean windows with Windex. Sponge bath, not shower.I used to clean boards with lots of liquid, but I realized that careful scrubbing with the wipe actually works better (less chance of redepositing flux elsewhere on the board), and usesfarless solvent.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 05:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on January 31, 2023, 11:58:20 pmHow about the $400 USB-to-RS485/RS422 adapter cables from National Instruments? (Things that are available from name brands for $30-100, $130ish for galvanically isolated ones.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 05:36:36 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 01, 2023, 12:35:46 amHonestly, $500-1000 for a mil-spec crimper doesn’t seem all that unreasonable to me, especially in comparison to $2 to $60contacts(for things which cost maybe 40¢ for non-mil-spec).

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 09:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 03, 2023, 05:34:29 pmYes! GPIB adapters! Stupid expensive for what they are.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gpib-controller-confusion/https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/model.gpib-usb-hs.html$1680.00 USDhttps://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/82357B/usb-gpib-interface-high-speed-usb-2-0.html$737.00 USD

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 11:53:39 pm
content: One of the most expensive substances in the universe: inkjet printer ink.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 05:08:33 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 03, 2023, 05:32:21 pmif you have alot of parts its mad annoying to try to do that. Like a board that you solder a bunch of stuff too in the middle of equipment with tons of solder wires and bolts and brackets and other shit.Like I replaced a bunch of composite resistors scattered around a PCB that had like 50 wires, a few brackets, caps, etc. Trying to go between all that with a brush is really bad. But I was able to tilt it, spray a whole can of flux remover in there, and it came out OK after 10 min of work rather then like an hour with probobly lifted traces, replaced wires (if you resolder the creep too much and they will be too tight with 1 more strip).. if you use the brush on the can with a flood, it does work pretty good, but only do it if you know that you just don't have the patience to make it brush accessible.And its the only good way to get stuff like flux that is under transistor plastic/ceramic spacers for instance, where you solder the transistor with the loose spacer on top of it. When you add flux some comes out the top, unless you want to do a submersion, you won't get that out without a good flow from experience.And no idea about stuff like QFP soldered with rosin flux... or BGA, I imagine you also need to flood that good. But at that point you pretty much need a ultrasonic I think.. how to be confident there is no flux under a BGA ?

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:01:17 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on February 03, 2023, 11:53:39 pmObviously at >1000$/L they can afford to use ID chips to protect you the consumer from only buying the good stuff.Ugh.Hilarious when during chip shortage, some printer mfgr couldn't get their ID chips so had to tell their customers on how to ignore/bypass the "warnings" that would appear as the machine thought it was 'illegal' ink.Quote from: Smokey on January 31, 2023, 11:59:45 pmAnd the EDU mini even includes the 10-pin cable as well, if that's the only thing you care about, as after some while it can develop some bad connections due to wire cracks..Saw the EDU mini listed at Adafruit for 60$ this week. I got an email late at night saying it was instock with 200+ pcs. Thought I'd order one next day.. all gone. Thought I check if Adafruit@Mouser would have some in, but they still list the original price (25$ or so), and probably tons of backorders so no way they are going to send patiently waiting customers "cheap" JLinks.Feels almost like scalping practices. I had ordered one last year at Mouser. Hopefully I will get it somewhere in 2024 I supposeThe SWD debugger market for hobbyists is really in a poor state. I don't care about OSS dongles or dongles that work via OpenOCD. Neither support my ERF32MG22 chipset with m33 security processor (which has some funny stuff around resetting and reprogramming). So I *need* the JLink GDB server for that. For time being I'm trying to work with a patched OpenOCD but with mixed results

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:03:01 am
content: Higher end FPGA's ordered in qty of 1.They shouldn't be 10,20,50x their volume price.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 10:41:28 am
content: Overpriced Stuff = rip off or ROI, take your pick.BTW, what is the currently accepted ROI ?

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 11:14:02 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on February 01, 2023, 09:25:25 amTo be fair, when lots of that stuff is used by people that actually need some of the specs, it lives up to pricing/expectations. Also Apple phones in corporate environments are not bad, easily to integrate into MDM systems, good supply chain for pre-configured models to cause minimal workload on local sysadmins, decent software update period (=usable for years).Of course, on lots of stuff that gets the "enterprise" stamp the quality is sometimes questionable.And, for a non-enterprise user that does not use the features that make the premium, they pay more that they probably would have to for a competitors model.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 08:37:39 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 03, 2023, 09:14:31 amWow they have 1000$ USB A-B Cable, I can have a use for it, it will work perfectly with my 90$ Behringer microphone interfaceAnd the great 5000$ C13 cable, I wonder if it makes my computer faster or if it works just for soundHeck I shall start to sell those magic cablesyes and 5000 $/m XLR cable + 5500$ for connectors, what a great deal

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:01:42 pm
content: Quote from: nightfire on February 04, 2023, 11:14:02 amI must agree, iPhones just work out of the box and have very long support. I still have 7 plus, released in 2016, and my piece manufactured 2018. Working just fine. All software updates still regularly available. You don't have many phones with this long support.Lenovo laptop also running and running, for years (just got a second SSD and RAM), and it is now turned on 24/7 and connected to dock

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:59:02 pm
content: I kind of feel we need laws that limit the profitability of products.But it would be a crazy hard thing to regulate and almost everyone would be against it.Would also be difficult to do as some low volume things do need to be high profit. Sales volume would have to play into the calculation.Not going to happen but interesting to think about.Simply making the BOM cost of all products require public knowledge would help somewhat to shame companies into not overpricing things.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 11:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on February 05, 2023, 10:59:02 pmA lot also depends on ROI to subsidise your distribution network.I've heard Uni figures of 10% of retail for BOM cost but add in a pile of SW development and that seems too little.You know, you build stuff and sell it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 11:21:00 pm
content: Yeah, I'm more thinking of situations where the company could cut retail prices by 50% and they'd still be raking in billions in profit and have no problem paying back ROI over a reasonable time.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 11:43:24 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on February 05, 2023, 11:21:00 pmSeriously, what that might be ?Whom might determine that ?We have some products that haven't changed in 10 years except for SW and others just a few years old like your DSO that were discounted USD400 for the last 2 months of 2022. Reallyyou didn't benefit.Would either be sold at a loss, that I very much doubt however there was some tightrope walking done with price setting I won't go into.We see new products released for what seems considerably more than imagined and it's only when we examine competing products pricing we see why it's been priced that way, in short we see competition sets the price of what the marketplace can withstand.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 11:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 05, 2023, 11:43:24 pmyep, it always boils down to maximizing profits.In any case, test equipment is a specialized industry. Not really what I'm talking about.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 11:57:27 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on February 05, 2023, 11:51:53 pmWhy would the TE industry unlike be any other needing to maximise profits ?Should we be distinguishing between a ROI and a ROC ?Should any one items cost represent a little of both ?I believe it should as shareholders expect a return on their investment.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 12:08:36 am
content: I feel like test equipment is incredibly proportional to scientific progress. In the long term its better if the margins are lower for society IMO, I feel like some people have the idea that its a luxury good... but it leads to game changing scientific breakthroughs.Some things are priced so its like big corporations only, which don't necessarily have the smartest people, or the best intentions.Kinda like the prices of that stuff decide how cool the future will be in like.. 10-20 years. And literal testing (wide scale) is how you decide if a technology is ready for wide spread adoption. Is it reliable? Does it always perform? Can we decide to make a million of the thing? If you have data from good test equipment (with good people), and alto of it, the answer might be yes.And research always goes better when people are using the same equipment families IMO. Easier to transition between companies, spread information, easier to hire people since their pre trained (exactly so), etc. And its more trusted because it can be replicated exactly, no researchers are saying "well we need super expensive box #23 to really be sure we can start this project....."

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 02:23:13 am
content: Price always meets a willingness to pay. Set it too high and either no-one will pay or a competitor will see an opportunity.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 03:34:30 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 06, 2023, 12:08:36 amCutting edge science needs cutting edge test equipment... which itself sometimes needs cutting edge science to make.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 04:51:21 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 06, 2023, 03:34:30 am'well its for the ____ industry, they have deep pockets' i.e. mega overpriced accessories. I think there is some times competition over a unrealistic price region that takes WAY too long to fall down.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 07:15:20 am
content: It is hard to prove exactly how much profit is being made on a productFor large volume mass produced consumer goods, yes the BOM cost is the main driving factor (like TVs, washing machines..etc). These things heavily recycle R&D between products and whatever R&D cost is spread over massive volumes. The production process is heavily optimized and automated, minimizing the cost of that. So it is really about buying parts, putting them together and getting it out the door as fast and cheaply as possible. This market has a lot of competition so this drives a race to the bottom of making the cheapest product. (This sometimes results in products that are actually too cost cut down even)But when it comes to more specialized products this is completely different. The niche products don't have the market demand for you to be able to sell them in the millions quantities like TVs can. Things like specialized scientific equipment require a lot of expensive R&D to develop and don't sell many units, so the huge cost has to be spread over a small number of products. On top of that the money for the R&D might have come from investors that want to see a return on there investment. The parts might also be very specialized so they might have to keep a sizable stock of them on hand. There are other costs unrelated to production, like having to have a sales team that works directly with costumers, perhaps a servicing team that installs and calibrates the equipment. You also have some critical employees that are experts in that niche field, you need to pay those well to retain them because if they leave you are not finding a replacement anytime soon. Even as the product is sold there is often more R&D going in in terms of software development to improve the product and help it keep up with modern requirements. All these costs coming in from different directions at different times make it very difficult to even calculate the true cost of making a product, let alone formally prove it on paperwork. But safe to say the BOM cost is only a small part of the total price. But yeah sometimes they have a monopoly and can charge whatever they want.Id say retail is taking too much of a profit. They just buy up products from brands and sell them to costumers, yet they have 50 to 100% markups on them. They are taking a really big cut of the pie for how much work they are putting into it. This goes up a lot for specialized stuff that is sold to industry.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 08:33:57 am
content: Quote from: Berni on February 06, 2023, 07:15:20 am(retail veteran here)Well, the margin varies wildly: in groceries it’s typically around 10%.On a computer, typically under 5% markup, which doesn’t even cover costs, so the stores often sell them at a loss, especially on low-end machines. Printers, especially low end models consumers typically buy, are similarly low-margin. On the other hand, the name-brand USB cable they sell you to go with it for $25 cost less than $2 from the distributor. That’s why accessories get pushed so hard with computer sales.In overall retail, wholesale prices are around 40% of the retail price. But it’s hard to claim that retail takes too big of a profit: in retail, you’re paying for convenience, because the store is in a convenient location (=very expensive rent), has staff, and performs money-losing services like customer support, handling returns, etcat that expensive retail location. (Online vendors can do those things at cheap facilities far away from the customer). Also, in malls, stores have to pay the mall a % of sales as a commission (which is why malls love high-revenue stores like Apple) in addition to rent. There’s also loss due to theft and damage (or insurance premiums for insurance against such losses).With that said, since you talk about “sold to industry”, maybe you’re not actually talking about retail, but about distributors. And yeah, they take a cut. But whether that’s bad is debatable, it depends on what value they add. I mean, buying parts in small quantities on Digi-Key, etc. is way more expensive than buying a reel from the manufacturer. But you’re paying for the convenience of being able to buy small amounts of each part, of parts from multiple manufacturers, all in stock at one place, as a consumer or small business that the manufacturers don’t actually want to deal with. And that’s why manufacturers like TI or Analog Devices outsource their own logistics to Digi-Key, mouser, etc.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:47:06 am
content: but you can see I think also that high price leads to innovation. I think its amazing what people have done with the SDR platform. RF test equipment is generally expensive, and I think alot of people put their effort into SDR.. and that became a powerful tool that IMO lead to a kind of 'rf revolution', enabled tons of people to work with RF that would normally not mess with it. It is a different direction to head in, but it seems that the utility of those kinds of inventions are huge. Cheap hobby of the RTL-SDR lead to extreme proliferation, massive surge in polarity and a super increase in education and practical capabilities.Maybe one can say the same thing about minicomputers and super computers. A much easier avenue for advancement of certain sciences came about because of the development of less capable and cheap microprocessors. I am not sure that distributed computing a substitute for traditional supercomputers (i.e. very sequential), I am sure that... new applications of those Cray type devices will eventually come up for specific problems that maybe distributed computing won't be able to adequately solve.. eventually... but we got a incredibly interesting and useful realm of science from intel's 4004.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 06:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on February 06, 2023, 07:15:20 amFor sure. It's way easier make the case for something coming out of R&D having a higher cost. That profit needs to both pay back the R&D expense for that product but it also needs to fund the future R&D for the next thing.Quote from: tooki on February 06, 2023, 08:33:57 amOur products used to go through distribution. And I'm not talking about Digikey, I'm talking about small specialized automation distributors. In order to carry your stuff, they want exclusivity contracts over some region in addition to adding a big markup to the final price. Since I also worked applications support, I heard from a number of customers that they loved our stuff and it worked great but the final price the distributors marked the thing up to was out of their price range so they went with something less expensive. That gets pretty frustrating.Quote from: coppercone2 on February 06, 2023, 09:47:06 amLike so many things, the low cost SDR stuff is a direct result of the cellphone industry demanding cheaper more integrated RF solutions so they can make phones smaller and cheaper. If the big name players hadn't spent a TON of R&D designing and manufacturing integrated single chip RF solutions we would all still be stuck piecing together discrete systems. But we all get the trickle down... sometimes...It is frustrating that the really good stuff like broadcom chips are just impossible to get unless you are a megacorp willing to commit to 1M pieces before starting engineering.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 06:55:49 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 06, 2023, 06:46:50 pmYeah that's the sort of distributors i was talking about.But goes for things like hardware stores too. The tiny things like brackets cost way more than a L belt piece of metal with a few holes should cost to make. Sure they might not have huge margins on an expensive lawn mower, but the tiny hardware parts are way overpriced. Yet i still go there because it is easy to just buy all of it in one spot rather than looking for specialized stores.Quote from: Smokey on February 06, 2023, 06:46:50 pmSDRs are mostly just a result of digital becoming so much cheaper than analog these days. It still makes sense to make a SDR without the integrated solution. The RF guts are still simplified when they are reduced down to a LNA feeding a mixer with a LDO that go right into a fast ADC. Then as the idea becomes popular chip vendors eventually create a chip that puts together all the building parts for the thing into one chip. At first it was about flexibility in things like cell basestations. Id say what really driven SDRs to be everywhere is the move to more complex modulation methods so that they could stuff more data into less spectrum. Those would be a pain to implement in analog and most of the time these modulations are carrying digital encoded signals anyway, so if you have the digital processing guts already, you might as well also do the demodulation in there.What i would say cellphones pushed is higher integration of the analog RF black magic into single chips. It takes a whole lot of clever tricks to get good performance out of a RF chip that has things like LNAs PAs, mixers, filters..etc all on one piece of silicon. the actual consumer applications like cellphones, WiFi, DVB TV..etc then just piggybacked on that to make such chips cheep trough massive volumes.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 07:36:26 am
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on February 01, 2023, 09:25:25 amEnterprise gear is usually priced based on specs, features etc... Enterprise networking gear comes to mind. Compare stuff like Cisco or Ubiquiti to consumer offerings and you'll soon realise that the extra cost is worth it.Consumer networking equipment is all gimmick and no substance. Utter garbage (mostly).I just bought a TP-Link VDSL2 modem/router/wireless AP for a mate to replace his failing one and it's pure junk. It actually forces you to download an app and sign up for an account just to configure it. No settings in the web GUI at all (although it actually has a HTTP server and web interface for stats). It literally took me an hour to set up because of that garbage. The app kept throwing me out and I'd have to factory reset and start all over again, for no reason at all. Shit like this seems to be a common theme, not just with TP-Link.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:26:36 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 07, 2023, 07:36:26 amSafety issues and backdoors were probably included, and no software patches will be ever releasedIt will probably freeze every few months (or worse weeks) and need to do a power cycleThis is not the kind of sh*t you want to deal with in any businessYet many businesses fall into the trap of cheap equipment and then in the end need to pay for replacement with proper stuffI see it commonly. Client outsources servers, storage, and networking to 3 different suppliers because it is cheaper than one integrated system from one vendor. And it never works reliably in the long term if they managed to bring it to life in the first place.And after some time ends up tossing the "cheap" equipment, where they spend more on maintenance and outages and just buy a working system.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:49:43 am
content: Mistress ... or even worst, mistresses.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 11:31:07 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 07, 2023, 10:49:43 amStandard aphorism: if it floats, flies or f***s, it is cheaper to rent than buy.Every engineer should have a mistress. Then it is possible to tell the wife they are with the mistress, the mistress they are with the wife, while they go to the lab and have fun in peace.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 12:12:56 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 07, 2023, 07:36:26 amSometimes enterprise solutions are just the same crap but with a higher price tag because it is an industry standard. While other times enterprise solutions are actually way superior to anything else out there.When it comes to networking it is definitely the latter. Cheep consumer networking gear has cost me way too much grief, up until i decided to spend a bit more money on it with more enterprise-ish Mikrotik stuff. Suddenly there ware 0 issues, to the point when i forget it is even there, it simply never needs to be even looked at as it never breaks. Unfortunately they also tends to come with settings so vast and complicated that you need a doctorate in IT just to open a port, but once you set it up you know you won't have to dick with it ever again, so it is worth it. (Never having to reboot the thing just because you changed a damn setting is also a godsend when setting things up)

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 12:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 07, 2023, 07:36:26 amBlame the enterprise environment for the move to 'consumer cloud management'. I understand the necessity for cloud managed systems in pro-enterprise environments where networks are spread across the physical corporate landscape, but in a two bedroom house? I need Cisco Meraki etc to manage VLANs in another timezone, but why do I need an Omada controller with apps to configure three laptops and a rubbish printer on a single  default subnet? All this comes from the same script kiddie mindset that added WiFi connectivity to the toilet bowl > "Alexa, flush the toilet for me" Do I need that? If you have both hands full texting, you bet you do! Consent to the download...I will add to the forum's list of overpriced stuff, the subscription model of software distribution. WTF? In olden days you bought the software [on a real disk], and if you were lucky, downloaded updates, patches and feature enhancements for free. Sadly the subscription model is becoming accepted practice. Let us not forget the in-app purchases also required on top of the annual user subscription. From open source software to open wallet software.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 01:50:08 pm
content: Test equipment may have high gross margins but if you have to run a competitive R&D department to fund it, then someone's got to pay for those salaries.There's always an inflection point. Keysight could sell an DSO4104X for $5k less and probably still make a profit on each unit, but if it only increases sales by 5% then they will struggle to pay the engineers to make the next generation of products. The actual gross profits of these companies are usually not amazing because they have competition from many other manufacturers as well as competition for R&D budgets.And engineers areexpensive. Especially the types of engineers who can make oscilloscopes.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 03:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 07, 2023, 01:50:08 pmAccording to their financials Keysight has roughly a 60% gross margin and a 20% net margin--$5 billion revenue, $3B GP, $1B net. Fortive (Fluke/Tek/et al) is in a similar situation. The companies do fine, although I wouldn't buy either stock as they are too expensive (P/E > 30).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 03:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 07, 2023, 07:36:26 amWhy was an individual buying a VDSL2 modem? They are normally supplied by the ISP. ISPs are the market for these products, The suppliers do what the ISPs want. The ISPs want remote management.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 09:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 07, 2023, 03:22:29 pmFor me, it was control, becuase the router they supplied was crap and locked down to doing what they wanted and reporting back to them. One local fibre company gives you a wifi connection but sets the ssid and passwords etc so you end up advertising for them while not having the ability to stop it from using specific bands of wifi.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 09:40:08 pm
content: Costs of electronic components can be a minefield.You can pay through the nose at usual reputable dealers.You can take a chance on ebay or with Chinese vendors.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 07, 2023, 03:22:29 pmIn Australia, you can get a modem/router from your ISP (usually for free) if you choose to, but you can also BYO equipment. You can walk into any office supply store or technology store and buy them off the shelf, without any ISP branding or custom firmware. Quite often the ones the ISP supplies are extremely basic. Just enough to get you an internet connection, some kind of Wifi and VoIP. We don't lock our connections down to use specific modems or lock customers out of theirs (even if it was supplied by the ISP).His router that was supplied years ago by his ISP was very old and was starting to fail. The Wifi became extremely unreliable and after a few clients connected, it became unstable. It was time for an upgrade.Personally, I use a Netgate appliance running pfSense. From the street, the fibre goes into an NTD which converts it over to copper ethernet, then from there straight into the WAN port of my router for me to do whatever I want with. All the authentication/DHCP etc... is done on my own equipment.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 07, 2023, 10:36:17 pmA modem is a modem. It basically either works or it doesn't, and a lot of them are unreliable enough I'd rather the ISP bore the cost of replacement. ISPs usually supply an integrated modem, router and wifi box these days. The non-modem features in those can be basic. However, you can disable the non-modem functions, and provide your own wifi router to connect to the ISP provided modem.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 12:53:50 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 07, 2023, 10:57:49 pmWith VDSL2 connections (as are used here in some areas), it can get a little tricky. Some modems result in faster sync rates than others and may or may not support features like Save Our Showtime (SOS) and Robust Overhead Channel (ROC), which are also used here to maintain sync on poor quality lines.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 05:28:32 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 07, 2023, 10:36:17 pmThank god, kere they started to offer a nice media converter for VDSL, they offer ZYXEL VMG4005-B50A without Zyxel logo and call it just "Terminator"I was at first thinking about buying it, but it cost like 1.5€/mont to rent, so it does not make much sense to buy it at this priceI am a little nervous that I cannot look at things like signals and so, but it is the same with fiber, you have just your PPPoE parameters to connectand it just works

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 12:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 07, 2023, 01:50:08 pmI don't think Fluke engineers spent a lot of time designing thier SV225 'Stray Voltage Adapter'... Probably less than $10 BOM (1 3K resistor + 2 PTCs in a plastic case) and retailing for $99.My meter lacks the LoZ feature, which has recently proved confusing while working on some house mains lighting circuits... This would be a great adapter to have on hand, but for that price I decided to just add a 2nd meter to my bench and bought Dave's BM235 which includes the feature.Probably a really easy build, but without knowing the exact parts I'd rather not experiment with the probes in my hands to find out!Fluke SV225 repair video:https://youtu.be/IOoJmMBE5D8

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 12:24:39 am
content: I was looking for some ad9201 a2d converters.£15 + VAT at RS and similar sites.Looked on Ali Express and they were £1.50 each.Worked ok too.PC graphics cards are silly money. The to pend ones while fast seem to waste a lot of energy in heat.I dont have a graphics card in my pc I just use IGPU.Plays games ok and does PCBCAD so I am happy with that.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 01:09:13 am
content: Why can I buy a 4-channel Thermocouple "Monitor" without any logging for $30....(yes I know it says logging but it doesn't actually do that)https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Thermometer-Measurement-328%E2%84%89-2501%E2%84%89-Thermocouple/dp/B0C4Q984H5But to get actual logging (5000 "groups"? and usb), it costs $75...https://www.amazon.com/Thermometer-Professional-Thermocouple-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B0C4YTDFKG

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 05:36:43 pm
content: Non-military crimping tools!

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 06:28:42 pm
content: https://www.keenlab.de/index.php/product-category/kspot-welder-kit/... possibly not overpriced but definitely overly seller focused - so you can afford to be aloofandtry buying all your gear this way yourself

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 09:03:45 pm
content: that is a good machine though its super repeatable. And its super miniaturized, you have like 0402 next to bus bars. I say that its excellent quality

author: alpher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 09:39:10 pm
content: LOL.I just repaired this:https://www.partstown.com/traulsen/tr950-60472-00All it took was a 7" LCD screen plus resistive touchscreen, all in all with express shipping from aliexpress ~$200.Yet they will not sell a replacement screens even though the're just plug-ins.$5K for a simple controller is ridiculous.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 03:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on October 16, 2023, 09:03:45 pmI assume you're referring to the K weld (not the missile) - just ordered full kit from K weld UK distributor - not exactly sure what to expect or do with it - we shall see

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 03:39:31 pm
content: Quote from: armandine2 on October 16, 2023, 06:28:42 pmNot sure I understand -- what do you find wrong with that web shop?

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 06:34:33 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on October 17, 2023, 03:39:31 pmyou don't know what you don't knowI now know this project is popular with makers who have a 3D printer and they may run their kWeld from a car battery.It was not very hard to find this out, since the seller focus is on a community - not a single buyer (perhaps)

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 08:23:05 pm
content: .. on topicSo, in total you will pay about £450 for a kWeld and kCap with their enclosure kitshopefully my recently acquired Sorensen power supply will serve as an OK charger - it will undoubtedly be only for occasional use

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 07:34:27 pm
content: On my door at work I have an ANCIENT eBay listing for a pair of USED oil-paper capacitors for $172. The keyword is "Les Paul".That one made me print it out and hang it up!Jon

author: rhodges
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 12:11:38 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on October 19, 2023, 07:34:27 pmHe was famous for his guitars, so spending his time rolling capacitors was probably not profitable for him. So I assume his hand-rolled capacitors might be rare items.I don't know, but I think that the original Leyden jars might have some special value as collector pieces. Maybe an enterprising seller could combine the Leyden jars and the Les Paul cap into a superbly retro component.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 06:49:57 pm
content: This is the same story as with all collectibles that need repairs sometimes, like vintage cars.Of course you could put in new headlights in a Mercedes 300SL "Gullwing" that have been manufactured recently from a reputable manufacturer (and maybe frome the same OM manufacturer that probably manufactured them also back in the days..), but as this is no genuine part the value of that item will depreciate.And therefore those old genuine parts have a value to someone, especially when it comes to the exact sound a guitar or amp needs to have.Fun fact: Steve Vai (for those that not know: Famous guitarist) also had an incident where his guitar tech swapped the bridge pickup on one of his guitars because it seemed defective and tossed it in the trash, replaced it. Steve was freaking out and made the crew search the trash to find it, because of beaing afraid that the guitar would not sound the same anymore because of all the slight tolerances the ears can still hear.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 07:29:04 pm
content: Currently overpriced stuff is almost everything and they say it's just the beginning.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 02:09:32 am
content: Sometimes there is a happy medium.Not so cheap it doesnt work well.Not so expensive it is over priced.I bought a very cheap DMM and its accuracy wasnt good.I found one for twice the price about £20 that was very good.A lot of pro's insist on Fluke but I have found I dont need to spend that much to get an acceptable product.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 09:21:48 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 21, 2023, 07:29:04 pmIf people are buying stuff, thenby definitionthat stuff cannot be overpriced.Expensive or too expensive, yes. But not overpriced.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 12:26:20 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 22, 2023, 09:21:48 amThat's a weird definition you have. Some things, like basic foods, have to be bought to survive. If those are being priced, by cartel or other means, well above a reasonable profit margin most people would say they are overpriced.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 01:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 22, 2023, 12:26:20 pmWe are considering discretionary purchases, not life-critical purchases.Define "reasonable". "I don't want to afford it" isn't a useful definition!Thecauseof something beingincrediblyvery expensive needs to be understood. If criminal activity is involved, that activity needs to be dealt with. "Cornering the market" and "demand outstripping supply" and "alternative/diverse investment" are rarely criminal. Start by considering, for example, the price of gold and diamonds

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 01:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 22, 2023, 01:07:20 pmIf you set aside essentials and near essentials, all prices are the same - what the market will bear.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 01:22:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 22, 2023, 01:18:20 pmPretty much so.Consequently something cannot be overpriced, except by comparison to the price for an equivalent item. In such cases, just buy the equivalent item.It is, of course, normal for many things to be "more expensive than I can afford". That's life.

author: p.larner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 09:16:31 pm
content: dont know if it counts but about 18 months ago i was buying batterys to build a 16s 16ahlifepo4 pack,i got most of the cells new but was about 25 short,recently i tried to get the rest to build the pack,they had increased in price by 500% same battery same seller,Whats that about?.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 09:40:43 pm
content: Well, according to the Cambridge dictionary:overpriced: (of goods or services) more expensive than it should beSo, yeah. If we're gonna pick on words.Something that the market cannot bear is not overpriced, it's just unsellable.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 09:56:40 pm
content: Quote from: p.larner on October 22, 2023, 09:16:31 pmWhere did you buy from? Most suppliers in the UK charge very high prices for rechargeable batteries in small volumes. Small volumes of components are generally susceptible to crazy pricing.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 10:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: p.larner on October 22, 2023, 09:16:31 pmShipping.Suppliers must now disclose when a product contains Lithium batteries and then shipping rates double !It seems that despite some products supply battery risk documentation, shippers as yet don't seem to be able to read or understand.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 10:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 22, 2023, 10:31:32 pmI imagine insurance companies are demanding higher premiums for transporting those infernal (pun intended) batteries. Those costs are passed onto the customer, unsurprisingly.For example:two747 crashes:https://www.flyingmag.com/news-ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6one incident per week:https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/03/03/faa-lithium-battery-fire-smoke-airplane/and many fires in UK refuse collection trucks and sites are (rightly or wrongly) being attributed to lithium cells/batteries.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 11:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 22, 2023, 10:53:00 pmYep all that.However when Li batteries are produced and packaged to international standards and disconnected from the instrument/device they power the risk they propose is very very low.Different forwarders/shippers also assess the risks very differently.In time there will be better understanding of any actual shipping risk involved and authorities may decide Li batteries must not be connected/plugged into the device they supply power to.The addition of a battery plug and socket also provides benefits to the end user and the environment with less thrown away devices when batteries have failed.We can only hope such evolution is accompanied with common sense.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 11:39:11 pm
content: Well, yes. But common sense isn't commonThen there is the issue of the ignorant, the wilfully ignorant, and those.that the rules don't apply to.Not sure how you can overcome human stupidity and malice

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2023, 05:21:11 am
content: Then i go buy a tiny primary lithium coin cell battery for keeping a RTC running, and suddenly nobody wants to ship it, the box is covered in stickers like it contains a nuclear warhead..etcIt is a frigging coin cell... you couldn't even start a fire with one if you tried to. Hit it with a hammer nothing happens.Short the terminals with a thin filament of wire, the voltage drops to 0 because the internal resistance is huge.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2023, 09:14:21 am
content: Quote from: Berni on October 23, 2023, 05:21:11 amUnfortunately rules have to be formulated so that a random personnot skilled in the artcan understand and interpret them.I first came across the alternative in the 70s, when VAT was first introduced for luxury items only. That lead to one XµF capacitor having tax added whereas another XµF capacitor was tax free. Why? Because the first capacitor was used in TVs which were classed as luxury items.Funny? We laughed until we cried.Yes Virginia, once upon a time a measure of the improving economy was the proportion of households that had TVs

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 12:00:54 am
content: Quote from: Berni on October 23, 2023, 05:21:11 amWell, blame your lawmakers if you think some laws don't have scientific backing. Aren't you supposed to live in a democracy?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 12:40:36 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2023, 12:00:54 amYeah right.Lawmakers rely on gubbermint employees to advise them and their knowledge of things technical touches both extremes.Let me present a 3V 1000Ah lithium cell vs a 3V coin cell:All the Bureaucrap knows they are both Lithium and to classify their risk would be too hard and instead of doing proper work lump them both into the same category.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 11:06:20 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 22, 2023, 10:31:32 pmI don't think those shipping disclose clauses are new - I have purchases dating back to early 2010s (CR2302 Lithium batteries) that took a lot longer due to being shipped via ground.Quote from: tautech on October 22, 2023, 11:31:04 pm100%.Also, if they are shipped with a low charge (20, 30%) the risk is mitigated by a huge factor. Lately I have seen LiIon products being shipped with close to 80% of charge - most probably due to the factor the distribution network is now so vast (including Aliexpress, Banggood and others) that it becomes almost impossible to manage stock and educate everyone.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 24, 2023, 11:06:20 amMost of our stock is by sea freight however try and formally include a Lithium powered device and shipping rates double.Yet the worldwide express couriers better understand Lithium risks so they get the business and we get the goods in half the time albeit at rates we need add onto that equipment.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2023, 01:03:57 pmThelittleI have seenin the pastis along the lines of "if it is part of the equipment and inside it, then no problem".No, I don't understand that rationale, other than "we don't want it flying around and leaking everywhere when crushed by somebody else's package or gorillas".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:27:16 pm
content: Gorilla's are the greatest risk when unplugged and in its own packaging tucked into a custom recess on foam packing and all in a double boxed enclosure.I mean what could possibly go wrong .....oh yes it has the mandatory Lithium battery inside labelling and therefore must be treated as highly hazardous cargo.Gimme a break.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2023, 01:27:16 pmThat's why the make that Gorilla glue and Gorilla tape, to keep them in place.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 24, 2023, 01:32:20 pmDoesn't work. Somehow the gorillas always escape and proceed to wreak their havoc

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 09:47:31 pm
content: not a fan of my gear going u.s. by way of the "sticky rubber feel"- A Bose volume control to a computer speaker kit went that way a while ago.And I've just noticed my two Zoom hand recorders (H4n and H5) have gone sticky too...so they look like they turned out to be overpriced

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 08:56:51 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on October 23, 2023, 05:21:11 amI've had CR2430's pop and burn up causing smoke, no idea how hot they got as I wasn't around when it happened. Very rare (1 in 10,000) but happens.You can see a photo here where the plastic was burned:https://www.reddit.com/r/batteries/comments/eoe60o/cr2032_exploded_in_our_junk_drawer_any/

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 08:32:23 pm
content: The trick is to shop around.I wanted some AD9201 analogue to digital converters.They were £15+VAT each in UK.Got some off Ali Express for about £1-50 each and they worked fine.However you have to be wary of quality of goods not from reputable dealers.