Where are the $250 real digital oscilloscopes? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 01:42:36 am
content: With the popularity of small microcontroller experimentation platforms like Arduino, it seems like there would be a growing market for inexpensive, relatively slow digital storage oscilloscopes. The Rigol DS1052E is old technology now, but they are still $350 US or more to buy new, and the new entry level starts at $450-$500 for the DS1054Z. Only slightly below that price point, there are a few slower DSOs like the 25MHz Uni-T UTD2025. Below that, it is USB oscilloscope samplers that vary in ability but even at best can't replace a standalone scope, or project/kit builds that are not very capable at all.All the user interface and digital stuff has only gotten cheaper. An inexpensive 25 or 50 MHz two-channel scope would sell like crazy, and many of those people would replace it within a couple of years with a faster unit.The gap between the $22 200KHz 1MS/sec 1K sample memory build-it-yourself kit and a real oscilloscope at $350 is huge. Maybe not a lot of profit per unit in that range, but something that would sell to the Sparkfun/Adafruit crowd could sell a lot of units and create an upgrade market. So why is that not happening?

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 02:01:16 am
content: They were making $100 computers all the way back in 1982 with the Timex Sinclair 1000. My MacBook Pro was cheaper than my Rigol MSO4014.The only thing I can think of is that computers have better economies of scale, for example, a 10 HP outboard costs $2k, whereas a 10 HP mower engine costs $300.

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 02:11:56 am
content: Quote from: nbritton on October 25, 2015, 02:01:16 amA DSO basically has a computer inside it, plus it has some fancy analog circuitry, high-speed ADC etc. So it should cost more than a cheap computer.

author: smbaker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 03:30:06 am
content: Quote from: wblock on October 25, 2015, 01:42:36 amMine was only $375, shipped. That seemed like a pretty good deal to me, for the capability I'm getting.Could they have produced a cheaper one, with only two channels limited to 25Mhz and sell it for $250? Perhaps, but I wouldn't have bought it to only have saved $125. Part of it is economies of scale like nbritton suggests, but part of it I think also comes down to charging what the market will bear. People are willing to part with $375 for a 4-channel 100Mhz scope. Truth be told, I'd have probably paid $475 or even $575 for the capability I'm getting. (though I would have insisted on a damn encoder that doesn't skip half the time I'm making a menu selection)

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 03:33:49 am
content: Those $250 Hanteks don't qualify?

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 04:35:31 am
content: Quote from: nidlaX on October 25, 2015, 03:33:49 amYou can't polish a turd.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 04:37:03 am
content: Computers,TV sets & the like only have to cope with standardised conditions,whereas an Oscilloscope needs to look at anything you can poke into the input.Because of this,other devices can use relatively slow ADC's,smaller/slower memories,etc.A case I always quote,(some say drone on interminably about) is trying to use a 1980s,(or a pocket 2015) DSO to look at an analog TV signal.A standard test with,say,a PAL TV waveform is to look at two fields to determine low frequency perturbations,such as mains hum,LF response problems,etc.A single field has a duration of 20ms,so you have to display 40ms.With a classic 10div wide display & standard time/div steps,that means the nearest setting you can use is 5ms div,or 50ms full scale.So far,so good,but the TV signal contains components up to 5Mhz,which means you really need a sample rate of around 20 Megasamples/sec.As we have to display 50ms,that is 1,000,000 samples you need to fit into your memory.Early DSO's,did not have anything like that memory depth,so opted for reducing the sample rate radically at long time/div settings,so as to fit the limited memory.This meant such time/div settings were really only useful to look at sinewaves,as aliasing made the display unusable if any components higher in frequency than the sample rate were present."Pocket" 'scopes & anything you could build up cheaply will suffer from the same problems as those early DSOs.Modern bench type DSOs can do this,as they have adequate memory depth.(& it isfastmemory!)Analog Oscilloscopes bo not use sampling,so were a very hard act to follow for anyone needing to look at complex signals like video.OK,you say,----analog TV is obsolete!The problem hasn't gone away,as there are still many situations where it is necessary to look at low frequency perturbations of high frequency signals.No doubt,you could,as a startup,with a lot of effort,build a reasonable DSO for this niche,but the time & costs would mount up to the point where to get any return on investment,your selling price would be more than a second hand Rigol with superior performance.

author: MisterBiscuit
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 05:21:55 am
content: A quick look on tequipment.net shows that you can get a 50Mhz Siglent or Instek scope for $269 or $279 depending on whether you want 250MS/s or 500MS/s. Isn't that close enough?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 10:26:46 am
content: Or if you want a 'proper' (as opposed to "osciloscope samplers") USB scope and 25MHz / 100Msps is sufficient, then I might suggest in the $100-150 range....https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-vds1022i-quick-teardown-%28versus-the-hantek-6022be%29/msg739141/#msg739141

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 12:02:06 pm
content: Lets say you could buy a 2-channel, 100Msps@8bit scope for US$200, or half the price of a DS1054Z.For under $10 you can use PC audio as a 192ksps@16bit scope with unlimited sample length.Or use direct sampling with 820T based rtl-sdr for 3.2Msps@8bit.Another $10 gets you a 24Mhz logic analyzer.I really like my 1054Z, but can't say I need it. It's cool to see the 4-5ns rise time on a GPIO pin, but I didn'd need my own 1054Z to find that out.For most things where the $10 tools aren't sufficient, someone with a $400 (or more) scope has already done the measurements and posted the results.Lastly you have to consider the wife factor. How many of them will go buy a $300 purse once they find out their husband spent $200 on some toy they can't even pronounce? :-)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 12:48:18 pm
content: You can actually get low end 'scopes with for that sort of money:eg.http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dso+quadDave has the box for one of those on his shelf but he's never done a video on it. He's done some other really cheap+nasty ones but I dont' think he ever did the DSO Quad.I bought one about five years ago and used it a lot. It saved my neck quite a few times, used it to debug stuff that I'd never have debugged without it.The bandwidth isn't steller (don't be fooled by the sample rate, the analogue input circuitry isn't good enough for that), the user interface is awful (everything is done through a handful of fiddly buttons), but those things actually work.Would I buy one in a post-DS1054Z world? Nope. I'd save up a bit longer. Twice the price will buy you something twenty times better. I don't regret buying my DSO Quad though.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 04:56:31 pm
content: Tektronix 2232 can be found for $100-200 on eBay. You get a DSO and an analog scope in one. A Tektronix is so much better made than those cheap scopes as well.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 04:57:05 pm
content: My vote for $50 - $100 is the DSO112. Suppose to be rated at 2 MHz but mine goes to 5 MHz just fine. The only pain is getting one with a battery because of the restrictions on Li batteries and no off the shelf battery.You can find many scopes under $250 - but YOU have to do your own homework. This forum is not for cheap scopes.

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 06:35:23 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on October 25, 2015, 04:57:05 pmIf $15 soldering stations are fair game, cheap DSOs probably are also.Many people have mentioned used and discounted scopes. These are an option, but availability and price are not consistent. Also, used scopes often come without probes. It seems to me that there is, or at least would be, a market for $250listscopes, with used ones going for much less than that.Since posting this last night, it occurs to me that a PC-based USB scope is probably not too inconvenient when working with microcontrollers, since the development environment requires a PC to be present anyway. The Owon mentioned up-thread is interesting for that.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 07:58:03 pm
content: At the moment, ebay lists 57 new digital oscilloscopes between $200 and $300, from Hantek, Owon, Uni-T, Sainsmart, GW Instek, Gratten, ...http://www.ebay.com/sch/Electrical-Test-Equipment-/92074/i.html?_sop=12&LH_BIN=1&_from=R40&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=200&_udhi=300&_nkw=oscilloscope%20digital&_dcat=104247&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=1000I am not sure I would recommend any of them. But I do not see the gap in the scope market which you have postulated.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 09:02:47 pm
content: FYI eBay $150 to $200http://www.ebay.com/sch/Electrical-Test-Equipment-/92074/i.html?_sop=12&LH_BIN=1&_from=R40&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=150&_udhi=200&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_nkw=oscilloscope%20digital&_dcat=104247&rt=nc$100 to $150http://www.ebay.com/sch/Electrical-Test-Equipment-/92074/i.html?_sop=12&LH_BIN=1&_from=R40&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=100&_udhi=150&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_nkw=oscilloscope%20digital&_dcat=104247&rt=ncOr to get back to the OP ($250)from 245 to 255http://www.ebay.com/sch/Electrical-Test-Equipment-/92074/i.html?_sop=12&LH_BIN=1&_from=R40&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=245&_udhi=255&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_nkw=oscilloscope%20digital&_dcat=104247&rt=ncI guess the point is there are a lot out there

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 09:10:47 pm
content: $277 delivered:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hantek-DSO5102P-Digital-Oscilloscope-100MHz-1GHz-7-TFT-Compared-TEK-TDS2012-/111077318013?hash=item19dcb95d7d:g:mPYAAOSw7ThUmX4O

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 09:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: FlyingHacker on October 25, 2015, 04:56:31 pm2/4K points of memory? If I want a digital scope, it's because I want memory. I think I'd try my luck with the Hantek, thanks, andthat'snot something you'll hear me say often.

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 11:55:42 pm
content: I think the point has been made that there are plenty of $250 "real" DSOs available if you're willing to accept some trade-offs. A $250 "real quality" DSO probably won't come along for a few years, but that's supply and demand at work.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 03:22:47 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 25, 2015, 09:21:59 pmYeah but you would use the analog scope much of the time, as they are soooo much more responsive to controls than any DSO, even the high end ones. Turn the knob and there is no lag at all. Sure a modern scope gets you a screen full of auto updating numbers, but most of the time you just want to see the shape of the waves.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 03:53:10 am
content: Quote from: FlyingHacker on October 26, 2015, 03:22:47 amWTF are you on about? My cheapo DSO responds perfectly.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 04:20:50 am
content: The Rigol DS1102U is well under $250, but they seem to be trying to avoid promoting that in the global market. A number of people on this forum have argued that a $400 scope like the DS1054Z is cheap enough that it represents an optimal balance between cost and functionality for an entry level scope. I think they are looking at this only from their own circumstance. I think $400 is a steep price for a lot of people who would find a reasonably well made $200-$250 machine much more attainable.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 04:57:22 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 26, 2015, 03:53:10 amMost DSOs of any price have a lot more lag than analog scopes. Many DSOs "tear" where half the trace shifts up and then the second half lags behind, etc. They are also all quantized to the screen resolution, which is quite low in all but the priciest scopes.But it sounds like you are happy with your scope, which is good.With an analog scope the trace moves smoothly and instantly.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 05:18:24 am
content: Quote from: FlyingHacker on October 26, 2015, 04:57:22 amThe main lag on most DSOs is because they complete a sweep before responding to the controls. At high sweep rates this has negligible effect on their responsiveness, but waiting for a slow sweep to complete can be irritating.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 05:26:55 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 26, 2015, 05:18:24 amThanks for clarifying, coppice. Yes, this is the main annoyance. Of course it is is the slow sweep rates and the single shot that make a DSO useful vs. an analog scope. The analogs get annoying with either flicker, or a sweep, that is too slow to see. For fast sweep rates I much prefer an analog scope. But I see the value in the the DSOs (old or modern).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 05:28:23 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 26, 2015, 05:18:24 amI'm sure you can find a bad case of lag somewhere, but... whatever.Nobody would argue that analog scopes aren't prettier but DSOs are an order of magnitude more useful. And a lot smaller.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2015, 10:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 26, 2015, 05:28:23 amTen times better?----the hyperbole is strong in this one......

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2015, 11:27:28 pm
content: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/NEW-Rigol-DS1102U-100MHZ-2Channels-Oscilloscope-1GSa-s-16Kpts-Memory-Depth-USB-5-6-TFT-LCD/506853_2053254028.html

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2015, 10:12:02 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 27, 2015, 10:51:46 pmAt least...