Please share you're experience with BK Precision 4010A  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 10:15:36 pm
content: Hi,I need a function generator for experimenting, automotive and audio. I have zero experience with a function generator. I'm interested in a BK Precision 4010A. I want to know if it is suitable for what i want it for and i want to know if it is easy to use. I already have a scope. If you have one, please share you're experience with it.

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 10:25:45 am
content: How much do you expect to pay for it? The point is that if you can get it cheap then it it may be worth it, but if you are going to pay full retail price then there are probably better options.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 06:23:24 pm
content: The BK precision 4010 cost $231 at Tequipment and with shipping it will be $290. I don't want the crappy Chinese generators like jds6600 and feeltech FY2300. They have problems. I want to start with something good, but not too expensive. Up to $250 is good, because the cost of shipping i also have to take into account. If you have other options, please let me know.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 08:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: robsims on June 12, 2019, 06:23:24 pmI've refrained from commenting because I don't have the device in question, but apparently neither does anyone else. That is because like many BK Precision products, this model is a brand new antique. School labs and perhaps other institutional users may buy them because they fill some need, but they are not a reasonable value for most users, whether they are hobbyists, students, techs or engineers. I actually have a fair amount of BK Precision equipment and some of it is pretty good--but I paid nickels on the dollar, if that. What you are proposing to buy is barely better than this:https://www.ebay.com/itm/XR2206-Function-Signal-Generator-DIY-Kit-Sine-Triangle-Square-Output-1Hz-1MHz/323531799127?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D02d3f7c8634c4aa7b77cafe5c69fc6b1%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D233205774814%26itm%3D323531799127&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 09:38:15 pm
content: First, i have zero experience with function generators. To me "a lot" doesn't matter. I can have less, but it must be good. I am a mechanical engineer and i need a generator to experiment wit electronics. I wan't clean and exact information presented to me on a scope. It is also not a problem if the generator is antique. If it's good for basic stuff, it's all right. The fact that it has through hole components makes it very easy to repair. As i progress, i will know what the BK4010A lacks, and if i need more, i will buy a Rigol or some other fancy generator. A teacher on youtube told me they have this generator for 3 years now in their school lab. They are working fine although students are beating the hell out of them everyday. So they are sturdy What i want to know from others at this point, is if this generator is sufficient to do automotive and audio electronics and to learn basic stuff. If not, please help me with some other budget options.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 10:52:29 pm
content: I have a BK 4040 I got on ebay for less than the price of that 4010 new. It's worked well for many years. Personally, I'd look for something used, but if you don't mind the price, the BK 4010 should be fine as a basic function generator.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 11:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: robsims on June 12, 2019, 09:38:15 pmI started with a 2 MHz Philips but it wasn't long before I needed/wanted something better and I got a SDG1010 that served me well until I upgraded again. Still if I'd kept the 2ch 10 MHz SDG1010 it would still do most of what I need today.Currently using a SDG1032X that offers more/better features.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 11:24:17 pm
content: Thank you guys. Yes i also think the BK4010 is a good starting point as a first function generator. I could not find anything new and better for the price. When i need more or something better i will buy another one in future.

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 01:37:10 am
content: For that much money I'd get an Analog Discovery 2. Two independent arbitrary waveform generators, 12 Mhz analog bandwidth plus the analog and digital data acquisition capabilities, computer controllable and it fits in your shirt pocket. Something to consider...

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 02:28:29 am
content: I’ve had a BK4040A for about 15 years. It’s been a good FG for sure but if today I was thinking about buying a new or used BK40xx series I’d look to see if a current model Siglent FG could be found that meets your specs and budget. As a starter FG BK will be ok, and eventually you might find it handy to have 2 FGs but I think you could skip an upgrade step by going directly for the best Siglent model you can reasonably afford. A feature rich good performing FG paired with a good entry scope (Rigol or Siglent) will give you a very good foundation for learning a lot. If you can stretch to the 1032X you might not need another FG for a long time.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 02:52:16 am
content: might be relevant:https://www.ebay.com/itm/BK-Precision-4045B-20-MHz-DDS-Sweep-Function-Generator/273841129250?epid=1103966460&hash=item3fc2340722:g:G5MAAOSwj4Vc1euehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg2480799/#msg2480799

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 04:03:19 am
content: My budget is less than $300. $250 for the generator + shipping from usa to my country around $50 . So even if i wan't to i can't afford the cheapest Siglent now. Where in the usa, do they sell siglent generators or any other dds generator like Rigol for under $250 ?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 04:12:13 am
content: Quote from: robsims on June 13, 2019, 04:03:19 amHere, 1ch 10 MHz:https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/sdg810/

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 05:54:50 am
content: Quote from: robsims on June 12, 2019, 09:38:15 pmFrom what I've seen of similar era BK Precision products, they are fairly rugged and simple. And crude... The unit is probably built mostly of jellybean (stock) components that could be had at Radio Shack 20 years ago. And BK supports their old stuff well (better than their new stuff) so you will likely be able to get a schematic and maybe a service manual. And it will work for basic audio, although I'm not sure how you would use it for automotive electronics. So if it works for you, don't let us stop you.However, the reason we're trying to talk you out of this unit is that you can do much better for the money. Used equipment here is often in very good condition--so the BK 4045B someone posted would be a much, much more useful tool and would cost half as much--and probably work for a very long time. The Siglent that Tautech posted is also vastly superior in every conceivable way, except for the repairability issue.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 07:05:59 am
content: Looks like the seller tautech linked sells the 1032X for $319. Sometimes they give a discount for EEVblog members. Probably not enough to meet your budget with shipping but maybe it’s close enough to save up. The 1000 series is ahead of the 800 series and the 1032X is probably their most compelling model until you get to the 2042X. I think you will not regret having two channels, extra bandwidth, and more features.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 07:57:59 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 13, 2019, 05:54:50 amMaybe better than you imagine, thanks to this forum.IIRC all Siglent models have output protection that minimizes the risk of blowing the output stages from reverse voltagesbutwhen turned OFF there is no such protection.Anyways, the output stages of many Siglent models have been well photographed so we can find and replace any damaged devices without more effort than a search through the appropriate SDG threads.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 03:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 13, 2019, 07:57:59 amPlease explain what that means, and if possible give an example of a typical failure mode scenario. Thx

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 07:55:16 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on June 13, 2019, 03:17:00 pmRTFMhttp://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDG1000X_UserManual_UM0201X-E01D.pdfP1212.13.10 Overvoltage Protection

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 07:57:37 pm
content: If there is someone who has the siglent SDG810, please share you're experiences.

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 08:05:36 pm
content: fyi... Rigol has a DG1022A for $301 in their clearance section:https://www.rigolna.com/clearance/

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 08:12:56 pm
content: Quote from: robsims on June 13, 2019, 07:57:37 pmI've sold ~30 to one customer for classroom use and we had some problems with early ones, all SW related however with the latest SW no more problems.Zero actual HW problems.I will add that the courses they are used in care is taken to define correct use and therefore minimize the chance of user error.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 08:41:46 pm
content: Ok thanks, think i'm going with the Siglent SDG810

author: GerryR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 10:28:49 pm
content: I recently bought a BK 4045B used on ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/BK-Precision-4045B-20-MHz-DDS-Sweep-Function-Generator/273841129250) for $124.99. Looks new and performs to spec. He has 2 left. Might be worth a look, if I'm not to late!

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 01:08:43 am
content: You know what i like about BK Precision equipment. They look like solid. Very robust. They look like they will never break.I will look again at the options you guys gave me and then i will make a decision.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:26:19 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 13, 2019, 07:55:16 pmtautech, I read p121 in the fine manual, but I'm still not clear on a few things:1. What's the downside of turning on the OVP? (If there is none, I'm guessing it would be on by default.)2. What is an example of the most typical failure mode scenario that this is intended to prevent?3. How is the Siglent approach to OVP any different than say Agilent/Keysight? (As best I can tell the manual for a 33522 seems to reference OVP once with very little info on it one way or another.)(Just not sure why you raised this... it is good of you to be up front in helping users stay alert... but looking for some more insight. Thx)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 06:58:32 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on June 14, 2019, 04:26:19 amIn reply to some assertions over repairability.Quote from: bdunham7 on June 13, 2019, 05:54:50 amAs I said, thanks to this forum we have a great resource to hunt out info to fix these things even though it's intended to be only at module level replacement like for most modern equipment.So while we don't have schematics we have plenty of pics and threads from others that unfortunate learner errors that might damage equipment with reverse voltages that exceed output stage specification*.While signal levels are not at high levels like mains it's very likely only output stages can be damaged like has happened in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1032x-help-needed/QuoteDunno, I'll leave some homework for you to do by looking up the Texas Instruments THS3095 datasheet.QuoteIt's not.QuoteAs above*.QuoteDunno, do they have it ?

author: GerryR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 11:13:33 am
content: Here's an example of an output protection circuit from an old Krohn-Hite 1000A function generator with the explanation of how it works, that might be of interest to you. It is out of their Operating and Service Manual for the unit.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 12:20:11 pm
content: Roger that. It sounds vaguely similar to an audio tube amplifier circuit in which a resistor is sacrificed in an effort to save a tube or other parts of the circuit.I kinda sorta understand the notion of OVP (and OCP) but what I’m still trying to get my head around is what causes the need to protect a function generator against reverse voltage? For example, typically a FG might be hooked to scope inputs - not much chance for reverse voltage there... ? Maybe this protection is just in case the FG is powering or driving a DUT and something goes wrong? I guess this discussion has taught me to be a tad more cautious with FGs - might be a good heads up to keep the gozindas and the gozoutas going in the right directions.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 04:18:01 pm
content: The shipping company in my country can not login after they have created an account on Siglent's website to purchase the SDG810. Think their website has a problem. I going to purchase the SDG810 via them.Anyone knows where they sell the SDG810 in the $230 (my budget) price range?

author: GerryR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 06:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on June 14, 2019, 12:20:11 pmYou basically hit it; if the device you are testing has a problem, or you grab the wrong point in the circuit with the FG probe, or you have the probe hooked to something in your circuit, and it pops off and falls on a high voltage trace, or the like, you don't want to fry your FG. Most FG are even protected against a direct short across the output(s), at least for a time, to help protect the output against an inadvertent short. A lot easier on the pocketbook that way!

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 06:34:49 pm
content: Quote from: robsims on June 14, 2019, 04:18:01 pm169 euros ($189 USD)https://www.siglenteu.com/waveform-generators/sdg800-series-functionarbitrary-waveform-generators/

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 07:14:34 pm
content: Hey guys,The shipping agency in my country will order the Siglent SDG810 for me from this shophttp://www.saelig.com/product/sdg810.htmSo in a few weeks i'm hoping to receive the generator. So i'm satisfied, because the price is right. I thank all for talking me out of the BK Precision 4010A.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 07:28:48 pm
content: Well bdunham7, you succeeded in talking me out of the BK precision. i already ordered the Siglent SDG810 from this websitehttp://www.saelig.com/product/sdg810.htmThanks

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 08:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: robsims on June 14, 2019, 07:28:48 pmWoops, can you cancel that order or hold it until you apply the EEVblog members discount code you can get here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 10:14:40 pm
content: What a pity. I can't get a discount from saelig because the shipping business here in my country will buy the FG at saelig and ship it for me. But i thank all of you. You've made me buy the best product for my money. Thanks again.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 11:07:13 pm
content: Quote from: robsims on June 14, 2019, 10:14:40 pmNever mind, for a product at this price point 6% doesn't amount to a big saving however when pennies are short we know every $ counts.When you get the SDG810 be sure to check the firmware is the current 13R6 version or some later unreleased version.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 01:34:27 am
content: Many thanks tautech. The generator will cost me $280 so it's $12 less than the BK Precision 4010A. That is awesome. I already mailed Saelig to know what the firmware version is of the Siglent. If the firmware version is earlier than 13R6 can it be updated to 13R6 or a later version?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 01:56:59 am
content: Quote from: robsims on June 15, 2019, 01:34:27 amYes of course.13R6 is already some months old so should be the version installed in a new unit but sometimes it's a later version installed yet to be publicly released.http://www.siglent.com/ENs/gjjrj.aspx?id=15This ^ is where I look for latest versions and the SDG800 one is on P3.It's a .zip file that when unpacked has the .ads file and the update instructions in a separate pdf.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 02:16:12 am
content: Many thanks for you're help Tautech. As soon as i receive the unit i will let you guys know.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 07:35:02 pm
content: Hi Guys, i'm back. Many thanks again. I received the Siglent SDG810 function generator today, that i bought at Saelig. There are only 2 cables included in the package. The power cable and USB cable. I have to buy a BNC cable, because there was no BNC cable in the box. Siglent doesn't ship the generator with a BNC cable. Which BNC cable do you guys recommend.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 08:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: robsims on July 09, 2019, 07:35:02 pmCorrect, only the higher priced SDG2kX and 6kX AWG's come with a BNC cable.As SDG810 is only a 10 MHz unit most any 50 Ohm BNC cable is fine for general use.Siglent do supply a reasonable quality 1GHz rated BNC cable and my list is $12.50.https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/bnc-cable/

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 08:40:16 pm
content: Thanks for the info Tautech. Also a special thanks to you. You made me buy the Siglent, and i'm glad i did. It is well made. I will look for a 50 ohm BNC cable at the local electronic store.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 08:43:48 pm
content: Quote from: robsims on July 09, 2019, 08:40:16 pmNo problem, I'm always happy to help.Any problems just let us know.

author: robsims
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2019, 10:53:18 pm
content: Thank you Tautech