Where to buy Musical Keyboards - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 09:59:32 am
content: Hi,After tearing down a Roland E14-OR device, I was surprised how these beauties where built! the most difficult challenging part is the mechanical keypad, I wonder where it can be bought from china?Note: every pin has a two carbon switches, with a little ramp between them, so the harder and faster you press the keys, it can measure the time between keypresses so it can act like a normal piano!Do you happen to know a Chinese manufacturer where I can buy the keyboard?A Modern MCU or a midrange FPGA can do the job.Some more pictures

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 10:32:11 am
content: Why would you want to buy just the keyboard anyway?If you are interested just in the keyboard part you can buy pure MIDI keyboards that don't make any sound, but just spit out the raw key presses via MIDI commands.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 10:42:44 am
content: Quote from: Berni on July 09, 2020, 10:32:11 amAlthough the "feel" is enormously variable. It certainly used to be possible to buy the mechanical part of a keyboard, it was a standard part of every "build your own electronic organ" project with lots of home-made contacts using gold-plated wire.MarkMLl

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 11:55:43 am
content: QuoteDoing a DIY project based on a ZYNQ maybe!

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 06:28:33 pm
content: I understand exactly what the OP is asking about.Back in the original days of keyboard synthesizers, a company called Pratt-Reed ruled the OEM keyboard world. Everyone bought their keyboard assemblies from them, and they'd sell you single units of anything they made. Want one of the inverse color white-on-black style, five octaves (60 keys), created for a specific customer? No problem! Just say "I want the keyboard from the Moog XYZ" or whatever and they'd happily ship you one. An absolute boon to those of us who toyed with homebrew synths back in the day.Alas, Pratt-Reed is no more. And as someone else noted, everything is MIDI now. That's good in some ways, bad in others.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 07:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 09, 2020, 06:28:33 pmCue the "Twilight Zone" music!I bought one once, customized with screw studs welded onto the bottom of the keys.I bought a gazillion little magnets and Hall effect switches.Never did anything with them.I do own about 3 (small) MIDI keyboards now though.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on July 09, 2020, 06:28:33 pm"Back in the day", as you put it, people were still wondering whether a 1MHz 6800 was going to be fast enough to scan a single manual...QuoteIf somebody had noted that he'd have been wrong. Everything is USB now, which is even more difficult to break into.MarkMLl

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:46:30 pm
content: Fatarin Italy has long been the biggest supplier of musical-instrument keyboard mechanisms.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 09:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on July 09, 2020, 08:16:03 pmYeah, I mispoke. I meant that everything is serialized now (on whatever hardware/protocol) rather than direct access like "in the good old days". Used to be you could sense velocity, pressure, etc. yourself....

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 10:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on July 09, 2020, 08:16:03 pmOk, to do your own thing in USB takes a bit of details and stuff, but it's well worth it.Make your own custom USB HID device and you have sensors, keyboards, outputs, anything at your fingertips.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 07:26:32 am
content: Quote from: Renate on July 09, 2020, 10:01:19 pmBut he isn't talking about making an HID peripheral, he's talking about a host (i.e. analogous to a PC or Raspberry Pi) which is another thing entirely. At least if you have MIDI it's a simple case of using a UART to handle the data stream, and that's actually quite a useful access point since velocity calculations etc. have been done for you.I've got an M-Audio keyboard here which had been played in a pub. When I opened it I removed 76p of (mostly) copper-covered coins... you can imagine what those have done to the electronics :-)MarkMLlMarkMLl

author: ozcar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 10:13:28 am
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on July 09, 2020, 08:16:03 pmMy 6800 scan code:Code:SCAN EQU *CLR BKN BASE KEY NUMBER FOR BYTECLR BYTNOLDX #STATUSSCAN10 LDAA BYTNO 3STAA DATA0B SET LS154 5NOP ALLOW DUST TO SETTLE 2NOP 2LDAA DATA0A READ KEY DATA 4STAA CURENT 4* P=PREV, Q=PREV-1, C=CURRENT, ^=EOR, .=AND** ACTION REQD=A = (C^Q).(Q^P))* NEW Q = P^((C^P).(Q^P))* NEW P = C** Q P C A newQ P* 0 0 0 0 0 0 KEY DOWN, WAS DOWN* 0 0 1 0 0 1 KEY UP, WAS DOWN* 0 1 0 0 0 0 KEY DOWN, WAS GOING UP - FORGET IT* 0 1 1 1 1 1 KEY UP, WAS GOING UP - ACTION KEY UP* 1 0 0 1 0 0 KEY DOWN, WAS GOING DOWN - ACTION KEY DOWN* 1 0 1 0 1 1 KEY UP, WAS GOING DOWN - FORGET IT* 1 1 0 0 1 0 KEY DOWN, WAS UP* 1 1 1 0 1 1 KEY UP, WAS UP*LDAB 0,X Q 5EORB 16,X Q^P 5STAB TEMP1 4TAB C 2EORB 0,X C^Q 5ANDB TEMP1 (C^Q).(Q^P) 3STAB ACTION 4EORA 16,X C^P 5ANDA TEMP1 (C^P).(Q^P) 3EORA 16,X P^((C^P).(Q^P)) 5STAA 0,X NEW Q 6LDAA CURENT 3STAA 16,X NEW P 6STX WKST SAVE STATUS POINTERLDAA ACTION 3BEQ SCAN90 NO ACTION REQD FOR 8 KEYS 4LDAB BKN STARTING KEY NUMBER FOR THIS BYTETSTA ACTIONSCAN70 BPL SCAN80 NOT THIS KEYBSR DOIT KEY UP/DOWNSCAN80 INCB NEXT KEY NUMBERASL CURENTASL ACTIONBNE SCAN70SCAN90 EQU *LDAA BKN 3ADDA #8 2STAA BKN BASE KEY NUMBER +=8 4INC BYTNO NEXT LS154 LINE 6LDX WKST RESTORE STATUS POINTERINX NEXT IN STATUS 4CPX #STATEN 3BNE SCAN10 REPEAT FOR ALL BYTES 4

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 12:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on July 10, 2020, 07:26:32 amHuh? Dealing with USB on the host side is even easier.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 12:38:53 pm
content: You could put a piezo on each key to detect the speed.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 12:48:43 pm
content: Quote from: Renate on July 10, 2020, 12:28:31 pmNot if the host is something like a ZYNQ, which I'd remind you is what he was talking about.MarkMLl

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 02:02:40 pm
content: What I find cool are the sensing systems used in hybrid digital pianos (where a full piano hammer action is present, just without strings). They use zero-contact optical sensing to sense both the key and the hammer. In Yamaha’s, they use fiber optics into the mechanism (so as to minimize the modification to the hardware), and use grayscale films to allow fine sensing. Quite impressive when you think it has 88 keys and each one has multiple signals to be sensed and processed in real-time!

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 05:18:03 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on July 10, 2020, 12:48:43 pmOh.So if it's a Zynq isn't that easy because it's a whole SOC?Wouldn't you want it to be a USB MIDI peripheral anyway?

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 07:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: Renate on July 10, 2020, 05:18:03 pmWhen OP mentioned Zynq I assumed that he was interested in building an instrument i.e. something that reads a keyboard and generates sound by some undefined procedure delegated to the FPGA section. Now I know that Zynq can run Linux, but I don't know whether it has USB host support... in any event it would be much more efficient to simply have a UART receiving MIDI.I agree that if he builds an instrument it could really benefit from being able to act as a MIDI peripheral (or ideally, as splitable keyboard and sound generator). But implementing a USB slave/peripheral is trivial compared with implementing a host: if something like a Teensy or an STM32 ("Blue Pill") can do it I'd expect a Zynq to have no problems.MarkMLl

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 08:05:56 pm
content: A FPGA just for MIDI encoding is a bit overkill. But it will work nicely for building a really elaborate low latency synth.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 08:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 10, 2020, 08:05:56 pmPrecisely. And the job is made somewhat easier if it is getting a stream of MIDI events, rather than having to work out velocities etc. itself. But having USB in that loop would be a right PITA.MarkMLl

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:32:19 am
content: I built a function generator out of an Analog Devices AD9850 DDS module.It runs as a USB peripheral, the main interface being a custom HID to a desktop application.It also has a USB MIDI interface, including portamento with a logarithmic sweep.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 07:19:57 am
content: Guys thanks for suggestions, Actually I think if I can find the MIDI keyboards, it would be nice too, do you know some Chinese manufacturers? or any other source, I want to build a DIY synth with the help of a ZYNQ, and I think it can do quite a good job

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 07:34:05 am
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on July 11, 2020, 07:19:57 amIt's difficult to sort the Chinese wheat from the Chinese chaff, in particular you're likely to find something sold as a keyboard but actually being a low-end piano/organ/synth with no easy way to break in.I'd suggest, certainly initially, building what's popularly known as a "MIDI sound generator" or "rack-mounted synth" and using a keyboard from e.g. M-Audio.In actual fact that would probably be a viable product if the price could be kept down: there's still quite a demand for classic sound generators and I certainly find them useful for annunciator "jingles".I notice that there's a new product called Zynthian, which starts at 80€ (supply your own RPi, case etc.) or 285€ as a fancy kit (which is at the high-end of the selling price for a second-hand Roland or Yamaha). Alternatively there's a new entry-level MIDI generator from China for about £54... I've just ordered one of those to see if it scratches my particular itch, which is providing MIDI capability to a host running multiple guest OSes.MarkMLl

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 11:00:33 am
content: QuoteDo they sell bare bone keyboards, just the mechanical part or the keyboard with a simple board just generating MIDI?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 12:34:41 pm
content: Why its so hard finding what you want in Canada ?

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 01:38:35 pm
content: I don't know why everybody is getting all worked up about latency and how problematic USB is.Most sounds that you generate have an attack profile anyway.Are you considering that as latency?Maybe we should make a non-causal MIDI system that starts the waveform before you press a key.Just move your head closer to the speaker, you'll knock off a millisecond latency for every foot!Ok, I'll measure up some actual keydown to start of waveform using separate USB MIDI devices on a host.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 01:43:48 pm
content: @Renate: you're the first person who's said anything about latency. The issue I highlighted was the fact that if you want to build a USB master you're pretty much constrained to having a full-blown OS etc. in there.MarkMLl

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 03:34:52 pm
content: There's been a few comments about making things low latency.In any case: I put a piezo xtal on top of a crappy USB MIDI keyboard.From the keyboard, through Windows 10, to a USB MIDI synthesizer, to the 2nd scope channel.The latency runs 7-9 mS.Running without the keyboard, I can directly output notes in Windows 10 at 2500/second.(That's actually about the rate that I play piano.)

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 03:42:21 pm
content: (Looks back) OK, I see one comment about latency which you pounced on and amplified. I'd be inclined to agree with you, but I'd point out that it was apparently the spur to fixing quite a lot of responsiveness problems in the Linux kernel... and I presume that the people who invested time in that had good reason to do so (and were able to make a good argument for their fixes being accepted by Torvalds).I suspect that it's not so much latency of one channel in isolation, but the sort of problems that you can get if multiple channels get very slightly out of sync: the human ear is very good at picking up discontinuities.MarkMLl

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 03:55:34 pm
content: Big things are hard to find in china because its not cheap to ship.You could buy a casio keyboard somewhere and take out the circuit, it is complete circuit only for the keyboard.It will be cheaper then buying all the keys.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 08:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: Jan Audio on July 11, 2020, 03:55:34 pmBaby grands £4505, minimum order two. Entirely easy to find and Chinese suppliers are delightfully optimistic about shipping them half way round the World, the real issue is whether you're happy putting that amount of money on the table for something that you've not seen from a supplier who might not be entirely accurate when responding to your questions.QuoteThat approach is much more hassle than it's worth. All the electronics, i.e. both chips and contacts, is likely to be on the same board, with no real demarcation between the subsystems. I've said it before: get something like a (second-hand) M-Audio keyboard which is strictly an input device with accessible MIDI.MarkMLl

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 01:12:49 am
content: Quote from: Renate on July 11, 2020, 03:34:52 pmWhat?2500 notes per second ?

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 03:30:10 am
content: Quote from: rdl on July 12, 2020, 01:12:49 amErm, you made me recheck my numbers, I don't know what I was thinking.I can do the 128 notes in under 16-20 milliseconds.That's 6400 to 8000 notes per second.128 notes/(22.731081seconds-22.714545seconds) = 7750 notes/second

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 06:47:18 am
content: QuoteI'm thinking of a first prototype and then maybe build a batch of 100-500 units, so I think I should definitely find something in china, cause I want to make a kickstarter campaign.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 07:11:04 am
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on July 12, 2020, 06:47:18 amReasonable. Try Ali (i.e. specifically /not/ AliExpress etc.).MarkMLl

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 04:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on July 12, 2020, 06:47:18 amWow, i want to be your friend.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 04:34:12 pm
content: Quotewots the budget?http://www.midiplus.com/html/ak490.htmlorhttps://www.kawai.co.uk/products/digitalpianos/vpcseries/vpc1/

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 05:56:14 am
content: QuoteThen help me find the bare bone keybaord!

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 06:12:42 am
content: http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_8S.htmThey will typically want you to meet some MOQ (minimum oder quantity).

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 07:53:01 am
content: QuoteI have emailed them, But got no responseDo we have other brands? specially manufacturers in china? (Chinese members please help)we need to find the bare bone keypad, probably with some kind of FPC or flat cable to connect to a custom Board (my designed board)

author: Selectech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 12:22:23 pm
content: Try here, under "Spare Parts", Keybeds.http://www.doepfer.de/home_e_2019.htm

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 02:24:05 pm
content: No you need to find out where doepfer buys them.Ali, why no sound-module ?, its more realistic.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 03:11:41 pm
content: Fromhttp://www.doepfer.de/zubeh_e.htm...QuoteMost of the small synth manufactures buy from Fatar.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 05:29:23 pm
content: Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on July 12, 2020, 06:47:18 amAs I said before, Fatar is the only manufacturer of musical-instrument keyboards. Maybe there's someone in China making them. dunno. But all of the mainline manufacturers of electronic keyboards use Fatar mechanisms.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 10:48:09 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on July 11, 2020, 01:43:48 pmNot really, you can implement USB on a microcontroller with bare metal code. A RTOS is useful to handle other tasks like scanning the keyboard matrix.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 01:44:39 pm
content: Whats the difference between source code for a PIC MCU and a OS ?Put in some effort, it is fun to make, what are you scared of ?Get rid of that arduno copy and paste mentallity please.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 04:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: Jan Audio on July 15, 2020, 01:44:39 pmQuite simply, the level of complexity to support a USB host is overkill in the current case. It appeared to be overkill right from the start, and when OP pointed out that he was hoping to have a small-run product that impression became a certainty.QuoteNow that is gratuitously obnoxious. Or to descend to your level, damn rude.p.s. I've taken the liberty of correcting your spelling.MarkMLl

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 09:54:16 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 13, 2020, 10:48:09 pmOK, I've now got a small box here that does implement a USB host, but a reviewhttp://sandsoftwaresound.net/review-midiplus-miniengine-usb/does comment that it's an unusual capability.I've been keeping my eyes open for something like this for a while, since MIDI is useful on servers for monitoring purposes. It's getting increasingly unusual on expansion cards (and those cards that are available tend to have dodgy software support) and software emulators tend to have access rights issues etc. which I'm sure will be fixed RSN.Input options are either MIDI (via an adapter) or USB host, it can't be plugged directly into a PC despite having a micro-USB socket which turns out to be power only. It works out of the box with a USB->MIDI adapter, and also connected directly to the USB port on a keyboard (i.e. box acts as host, keyboard as slave).Internally, it's got a "Dream" SAM2635, an STM32F105, and an MXIC MX29LV640-EBTI (if my scrawled notes can be believed). I've not attempted more detailed reverse engineering, since I've bought this with a fairly urgent need rather than as a toy.MarkMLl