[Mini Rant] How Apple Treats Their Customer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: blueskull
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 03:37:18 am
content: After being a long time audience of Louis Rossmann, I finally got a chance to experience this myself.I just bought a new MacBook to do some work on XCode, and the laptop is perfect in many perspectives, and congratulations, Apple, you did a good job designing such a piece of beautiful machine.However, when it comes to customer service, I got hit hard today.I logged in with my Apple ID, and realized I couldn't purchase Apple US Store software because my Apple ID was associated to my Chinese billing address back to before I came to the US.I thought that would be easy -- just change country settings and I will be good. No, Apple doesn't want this. In order to make that happen, I have to have zero my account balance, so I need to spend the rest 44 CNY in my account.Okay, I thought. Just spend them. However, most Apps in Apple Chinese Store are in multiples of 3 CNY, so free, 3, 6, 12, 18 or higher. Well, that means I can't spend my 44 CNY completely.I scrolled for tens of minutes just trying to find some 1 CNY software to spend the money after spending 30+12, so I still need to find way to spend the rest 2. No, no hope.I tried Apple web chat customer service, and wasted my 46 minutes of life, just to get rid of 2 CNY (30 bloody red cents), and they eventually told me they should be able to cash them out, but they couldn't so that this time for whatever technical reasons.I then called their phone tech support, after staying on the line for an hour, they told me they will need a senior cust service to do this for me, so I told them to call me back then hanged up.20 minutes later, a so called senior cust support called me, and told me he was also not able to cash out my money -- keep in mind that I didn't want a refund, I just wanted to get rid of the money.Eventually, I searched on a Chinese searching engine and found an article about 1 CNY Apps, but the article was too old that none of them are 1 CNY anymore.Finally, I was able to find some 1 CNY software after another few tens of minutes of searching, and got rid of the bloody 2 CNY.So, to wrap up, I spent $2000 on a new Apple computer plus $230 on AppleCare+, and they couldn't get rid of my account balance and allow me to change country setting after wasting me totally more than 2 hours of life.I have to waste another hour to try to spend my own money just to change country, thanks to their stupid AppStore -- no sort by price, and the stupid rule that changing country requires zero balance. What a brilliant customer service!

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 03:58:12 am
content: Well you pay premium when getting forbidden aples to be special.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 04:31:37 am
content: Maybe it would be easier (and cheaper, if you count your time that way) to just create a new account?To pervert an old saying, "Live by the walled garden, die by the walled garden"...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 04:46:01 am
content: I've just spent the last week working on brand new Apple machines at work and I've come to the realisation that it's not just their customer service that blows.Full disclosure: I've always been a PC guy, but I'm one of the few that doesn't just jump on the Apple haters bandwagon without giving it a red hot crack.My experience over the last week really made me appreciate Windows and PC hardware design for what it is.The first issue which is probably the one that stuck in my brain the most was the placement of the USB ports. Sure, every machine has USB ports on the rear, but the Macs that I usedonlyhad USB ports on the rear, so that constant plugging/unplugging of thumb drives meant turning the whole machine around (and at one time inadvertently yanking out the power cable in the process).Worse yet, the mouse suddenly just stopped working, no warning, no low-battery alert, it just refused to work after a reboot. The Mac would detect it but when it went to connect, nothing. No amount of plugging and unplugging fixed it either. So I put the thing on charge (since there was no way of telling what the charge level was or even if the mouse was on at all). Where do you think the USB connector was? Nope, not on the side or the front edge, it was on theBASEof the mouse.So while it was charging you couldn't actually use the thing because you had to lay the mouse upside-down on the table. I also found the placement of the optical sensor very annoying (on the leading edge of the mouse), so if you over-shot the mouse pad/working surface just a little bit, it would stop moving the pointer and you had to reposition the device.Speaking of reboots, I had never had to restart a machine so many times in a week. Granted, that some of the software I was using was very specialised and still had a few issues, but it wasn't just that bit of software. Programs would just randomly crash and disappear off the screen (including Safari, Apple's own web browser). No error messages, no dialog boxes of any kind, it would just disappear and I was left staring at the desktop.You might be thinking that the machine I used had issues, nope, happened on others as well.Apart from the very polished and nice looking GUI and admittedly some very nice features, for the most part my experience was negative. I felt restricted in what I could do and even scared that I'd lose work every time the spinning colour wheel popped up on the screen. Some of the keyboard short cuts seemed to have been thought up by someone who just doesn't give a crap and it's the only OS I've used where the close button doesn't actually mean close or exit. I also felt that at times, the UI felt sluggish, even with an SSD installed.I did tend to like the idea of plists compared to the Windows registry, however there were thousands of them and there didn't appear to be any consistency between software and OS versions. Depending on what you were running, you'd have to look in several places to find the same thing and old/deprecated plist files just remained and left unneeded files all over the system.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 05:08:32 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 26, 2017, 04:57:41 amPerhaps it's just different markets but I've found the opposite to be true. In Australia, the high-end production houses and large broadcasters primarily use PCs. Some of the freelance/mid-end of the market do use Apple. Apple also seems to be popular outside of video production, such as graphic design.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 06:29:13 am
content: Funnily enough there was a time when Apple was not such a dick. They allowed cloned Macs, and were pretty chill on most things including system upgrades. Unfortunately this is also the time when Steve Jobs left the company, and when Apple came near death.Apple has had some actually decent stuff over the years, most notably their PPC and 68k machines. Especially with the G3/4/5 towers, they were almost like PCs. You could upgrade everything in them, and add PCI/AGP cards too. Some of the later G5s even had PCI-E support. They still were assholes about planned obsolescence, but their products weren't as terrible.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 12:14:31 pm
content: Apple products on itself are fine, good working machines.Nothing wrong with that.Only the restrictions just drive me nuts.You can't even hook up a standard mouse, external HDD or game controller by default.Need special 'Apple ready" products, register your soul etc.No thanks.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 12:18:54 pm
content: Aside from game controllers (I have no idea), you're just flat out wrong.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 12:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on August 26, 2017, 12:18:54 pmDon't know what you mean?My GF uses a MacBook and she runs into issues AAAALLL the time.She had to return quite some very standard products because they simply didn't work.Recently that was a stylus for drawing.I have a cordless mouse that just simply doesn't work on her laptop(which even works on a very old Ubuntu laptop)Also had a lot of issues with some external harddrives.If you do a search on google, you find a lot more stories like these.So I don't understand why you say I am 'flat out wrong'?The compatibility is just very poor.And going back to customer service, you end up in a loop were Apple blames the manufactures and the manufactures blame Apple for (driver) support etc.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 12:33:30 pm
content: The only issue I've had with my MacBook Air is bad 5GHz Wifi (likely USB3 related). As for everything else, could be drivers/software. Some mice can have issues because of stupid proprietary crap (Razer Synapse software inside the mouse) rather than as a HID.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 04:27:26 pm
content: It is simple.Buying an Apple product is the equivalent of purchasing your own straight jacket and having it put on you.If you are happy with life in a self imposed straight jacket, then life is perfect for you and no one will ever convince you that life without it is better.cheers,george.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 05:09:55 pm
content: Apple's also used quite a lot in web development companies. It's a commercial UNIX which is the closest thing to a Linux server OS that the webapplication will likely run on. Compared to Windows, there is really no match.Also, I think this kind of behaviour is not uncommon for large companies. Not talking any other computer vendor, butanylarge company. It's setup so that any dummy that can speak fluent english can be put on the phone. All other restrictions are put up by "the system".Last week I tried to change the shipping address for the SIM card of a new mobile plan at Vodafone. I think I spent the best part of 2 hours, 8 phone calls (of which 4 were hung up at their side) and my end result is that the SIM card is now delivered to the wrong address, and they can order a new card only after the plan starts. Coincidently that date is also when my old plan ends, which means I can't call them to order the card.Anyway, getting off topic, but I hate large companies customer service.

author: ruairi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 06:18:32 pm
content: I had similar Apple ID issues when I moved from Ireland to the U.S., sorry it was so tedious for you.I've definitely had some issues with Apple over the years but my overall experience has been great. For the most part things just work but as the Apple universe becomes more integrated and ever larger things will inevitably go wrong. My 10 month old iPhone 7 has developed severe battery issues, I'm headed to the Apple Store this weekend…

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 11:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 26, 2017, 04:57:41 amNo point in preaching to the converted here about Mac vs Windows and Linux flavors.I deal with all 3 types and you won't see me smiling when there's a Mac to work on, or try to work with.Mac operating systems after Mountain Lion/Yosemite are PLAINLY a resource hogging joke played on customers with misguided -brand loyalty- issues,who may enjoy wasting time as unpaid alpha/beta testers, and the excitement of random beach balls spinning on their screensApparently a lot of 'high enders' clamped to the Mac app trap are considering bridging the gap between performance and component upgrades, by going the Hackint0sh routeFWIW re "good female attractant" you'll do better with a good set of clothes, and or a guitar, than flashing a shiny Macfolding pizza tray

author: ruairi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 12:29:33 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on August 26, 2017, 11:20:38 pmPerhaps, but I haven't seen any evidence of it. I work in studios all over L.A., arguably the music capitol of the world. Everyone is locked into Mac for Pro Tools, it is the industry standard. I haven't seen a single Hackintosh in use, not one.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 01:01:51 am
content: Quote from: b_force on August 26, 2017, 12:14:31 pmJust plain not true. This message brought you by an Apple wireless keyboard and a Microsoft USB mouse of around 2000 vintage on a Mac Pro running OS X El Capitan. I've used all sorts of USB storage on Apple machines of various vintages and none of it was ever been Apple specific, it's all been completely generic and it's all worked. Game controller I can't speak to, as I've never even wanted to use one on an Apple machine.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 01:50:05 am
content: Not sure about game controllers, but can def confirm just about anything USB generic has worked on many/lots of different Mac models, running from Leopard right up to SierraNo issue with any mouse or keyboard, if they work with Windows, they will work with Mac and Linux

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 02:07:24 am
content: I've had a few issues with the Apple ID when I moved from Brazil to US, but overall I did not have any customer service problems with the products I owned.However, I work with the three platforms (macOS, Windows and Linux) and can tell the interface is quite polished for the general user, especially when compared to Unity and Windows 8/10 (XP and 7 I find better). However, I have a personal dislike for the keyboard shortcuts, the absence of certain keys such as PgUP/PgDown on laptop keyboards and the overall fenced environment, which does not allow the level of customization that Windows does without having to resort to a terminal. Another annoyance to me is that an application is not closed when clicking on the top "X" - you have to "quit" using a shortcut combination or the apple menu.A few other issues I have with Apple itself are related to the proprietary filesystem and IoT formats, which caused me trouble more than once.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 03:31:53 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 26, 2017, 05:08:32 amPerhaps blueskull is talking about audiofoolery people.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 03:45:56 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on August 27, 2017, 01:50:05 amUnless they violate USB specifications and nobody has added a workaround yet. And no, that's not the fault of Linux (Or OS X, if it has the same 'problem').

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 07:40:17 am
content: Pro Tools isn't the only high end DAW game in town, nor is it the best by any stretch of the imagination or hype,it's standard 'follow the leader' software that's laced with too much installer security to keep cheapskates out,and hardware requirements that change like the weather with each update,rather than functionality and reliability. which other DAWs excel at, even before PT appeared on the scene.AFAIK, Pro Tools is the 'standard' just because Pro Tools said it was, putting advertising money behind it, till the industry 'got the message'I'm guessing OP has his hands tied in this matter and has to play along to make a buck

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 02:12:53 pm
content: Also 90% of professional video, arts and photo editing is done on MAC.I personally,on the other hand, CAN'T run 90% of my programs (without weird emulators, tricks and dual boot things)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 02:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on August 27, 2017, 02:12:53 pmThat used to be true 20 years ago, but has changed significantly in recent years. Hardware and software in general has become very good and Apple has moved towards the general consumer market. It hasn't really helped Apple that they neglected the high end. If you want a serious rendering or video editing desktop, you're pretty much forced to go with something else than Apple.Of course, Microsoft has launched an assault on the prosumer market with their Surface Pro line. Especially for drawings artists, it is a very interesting proposition.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:08:10 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 26, 2017, 03:37:18 amTo be honest I had no idea one could even change an Apple Store account country. I, like basically everyone who has lived in more than one country since the advent of the iTunes Store, have multiple accounts, because I can't access everything I need from one country. (Thank the media industry for this originally, with its intricate web of licensing agreements for each damned country.) And then because the store is country-specific already, app developers limit their apps to specific countries to avoid confusion. So Imusthave a US account to download my US bank's app, andmusthave a Swiss account to download my Swiss bank and cable provider's apps, for example.At least Apple isn't like Netflix, whose accounts are global, and only let you view the content that's licensed for the country you're physically located in, regardless of billing country. (Imagine if, for example, I couldn't download or update my US bank's app from Switzerland.)(I assume the zero balance requirement is to avoid the legalities of currency conversion, which could put them into banking territory, which is a legal minefield.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on August 26, 2017, 12:14:31 pmWhat nonsense.As others have said, OS X has very good generic device support, and has had it for a long time. There's NEVER been a time (even pre-OS X) that you couldn't just plug in a generic USB keyboard or mouse on a Mac with USB. When devices don't work on OS X, it's almost always because it doesn't conform to the standards. (Linux and OS X have this in common.)External storage has been standardized for a damned long time. A Mac will always read a PC-formatted disk. Depending on format, you can write to it, too. (And there's always the magic of reformatting if you need to write.)Registering your soul? A) you can choose to not register anything with Apple and it'll still work. (Though you will need to sign up to the App Store for apps, but if you use only prepaid cards and never link a credit card, then it doesn't need any real data linking it to you.) B) Because selling customer data isn't how Apple makes money, they are by FAR the most respectful of your privacy of any of the big computer vendors. In contrast, Google's entire business is based on selling your privacy to advertisers.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 27, 2017, 03:45:56 amYep. Great example of this is the USB gamer keyboards that implement NKRO by appearing as multiple keyboards, which neither Linux nor OS X seem to be happy with. (IIRC, true NKRO was added to the USB HID spec fairly recently, but OS X hasn't updated its HID driver to take advantage of it.)Devices that rely on deviating from the standards in a way that happens to accidentally work on Windows may work for now, but don't be surprised if they break in a later Windows. Fully standards-compliant devices should work more or less indefinitely on all platforms.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:21:22 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 27, 2017, 05:08:10 pmYour last sentence is probably spot on. A lot of these very strange requirements do not stem from wanting to be annoying or not caring, but regulations that suddenly plunk a company or service in another category if they do it the nice and easy way.You see that a lot in electronics too. Designing nice and good hardware is sometimes a lot easier than getting it all tested and approved. Add anything to do with RF, voltages over 50V or both, and you'll suddenly find yourself jumping hoops and scouring over all sorts of regulations, hoping you interpret them correctly and creating liability risks. Big companies have people or whole departments to deal with this, but small players, the cost of entry can be severe. We haven't even touched patents yet. Even if you develop something fairly obvious, it is likely that several patents apply, forcing you ever deeper into the web of regulation and law.I do understand the need for proper regulations and appreciate them in many cases, but the current systems seems to foster a market with a few huge parties with large portfolios. If you're small and invent something new, you either have to hope to escape attention, to be bought out or to prepare to be litigated into a smoking crater.That's enough ranting for now.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 27, 2017, 05:14:57 pmSo you basically call my experience nonsense?Our experience is very different from that.The practicality is, that you can't just walk in a shop, buy something and hook it up to your macbook.Like I said before, we had this already this a few times.I personally don't care how it works with drivers, the fact is, you can't just buy stuff and expect that it will work.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:36:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 27, 2017, 05:14:57 pmP.S. to my post above: For sure, back in the day when Apple used different ports than everyone else, and there were no generic standards for peripherals, you did need special Mac versions of things. Drivers aside (which were the biggest hurdle), yes, you'd need a Mac version of a dialup modem (with a different cable), keyboards and mice used ADB, and Macs used high-performance SCSI disks and scanners (like UNIX workstations) instead of awful parallel-port peripherals. But once USB came along, and Ethernet came down in price to where everyone uses it, Apple went all-standard, with extremely few exceptions along the way. By 1998, special Mac peripherals were largely gone, other than vendors making Mac "versions" that were functionally and electrically identical but came in clear plastics to match the iMac.Here's an incomplete list of industry standards Apple adopted over the years, replacing proprietary standards. I've deliberately included ones that are now obsolete, to give you an idea of how long it's been that Apple has embraced standards:- USB- FireWire- Ethernet- WiFi- IDE/ATA/SATA- SCSI (many flavors)- PCI, PCI-X, PCIe- PCMCIA/PC Card, ExpressCard- PC66/100/133/DDRxxxx RAM- IrDA- RS-232/RS-422 serial- VGA- DVI- DisplayPort- ThunderBolt- SMBus- TCP/IP- SMB- IPP- Java- PostScript, PDF, etcThe fact that some of these standards were rare on Windows PCs doesn't mean they are Apple-proprietary. ThunderBolt for example was designed by Intel, and is used on some PCs. Often times, competing industry standards emerge, and when Microsoft has adopted one while Apple adopted the other, the Apple haters simply declare that Apple adopted a "proprietary" standard when in fact it was just the other industry standard. (For example, the NuBus expansion slots Apple used on many Macs before switching to PCI was actually a TI standard, using Eurocard connectors and pinout, and was used on a handful of other platforms to a small degree.)

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:41:25 pm
content: You can give me billions of 'lists' with standards.That doesn't prove a thing.Just walk in a shop, buy something like a stylus, or a decent gamecontroller, some type of printer/scanner or anything else that is a bit more than just a simple mouse or a keyboard and you are in trouble.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:46:22 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on August 27, 2017, 05:33:19 pmWell, I don't know what to tell you, because most of those thingsdowork just fine.If you buy things that are not standards-compliant (e.g. a gaming mouse with 20 buttons), then you're just as beholden to a custom driver on Windows as on a Mac, since it needs a custom driver on both. And that falls on the device manufacturer, not on Apple. (FYI, for USB mice, game controllers, etc. that need special drivers, but where the vendor doesn't make them for Mac, there's a fantastic app called USB Overdrive that lets nearly all of them work, with full configuration. Some people even use it when vendor software is available, because it's better!)As for disks, I've literally never seen a USB disk that didn't just work on a Mac. They always support USB Mass Storage and thus just work.Quote from: b_force on August 27, 2017, 05:41:25 pmLOL you're just imagining things now.Plug in any printer/scanner on a Mac and it'll go and download the right drivers and configure them automatically. (Excluding industrial label printers and the like.) I literally have not seen a non-Mac-compatible printer in many, many years.Stylus, you mean like a graphics tablet? There's one industry leader in those, and it's Wacom, and they support all their products on Mac (and have since forever).Game controllers I honestly can't comment on, since I'm not a gamer, but I'd assume this is an area where the Mac is weak, as a generally weaker game platform. Not sure what industry standards exist these days.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:50:46 pm
content: But again, I don't even understand how it's Apple's fault: if a device requires drivers to work because it's not standards-compliant, then it's the vendor's responsibility to make a driver. If, say, Logitech makes a game controller that requires drivers, and Logitech chooses to make drivers for Windows but not Mac, how is that in any way Apple's fault? Remember, this thread was about "How Apple Treats Their Customer". What you're compaining about is howthird party vendorstreat Apple customers.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 06:04:53 pm
content: Quote from: ruairi on August 27, 2017, 12:29:33 amOh dear. We got one.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 06:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on August 27, 2017, 06:04:53 pmReal capitols are already a thing to watch out for, but proclaimed ones are even more dangerous

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 06:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 27, 2017, 05:50:46 pmYes and if you read back, I said that IF you go the vendor, they simply say it's because they don't get the needed Apple license.In the end you keep going in circles and circles.Obviously I am not talking about industry leader companies, but just in general.I can make billions of list that pretty standard things, equipment or whatever is NOT working with Apple products, for the reason that Apple doesn't give certain rights, or whatever it is, to let vendors make decent compatible drivers.Ones again, I am talking here from practical experience (don't even care about the theoretical background behind it)anyway, not important enough to discuss about

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 06:34:45 pm
content: I've heard from acquaintances of the nonsense hoops you have to go through to move your account, I always assumed it was for region specific DRM reasons for content and apps, but that was just an assumption.I can't remember getting a problem making a USB HID device loke a mouse or keyboard working, or USB audio comforming devices (even my own!) or hard drives. For USB NTFS drives, OS X will read them but not write them, although there are third party options for that. Their own USB wired mouse is crap, I had to disable the left/right touch scroll internally in mine, and eventually in a fit of rage with it I replace it with a $10 one I had in a drawer which has worked faultlessly since.What I do find crap are their Bluetooth keyboards, mice and trackpads for various reasons, but then again any Bluetooth device I find tedious, especially if you use them on multiple machines, or are dependent on them to be active during boot. Therefore I generally only use wired keyboards and mice, or non-Bluetooth wireless ones.Thunderbolt is my next frustration. Although it's an Intel standard, and a five year old one, whether one Thunderbolt device will work with another is largely dependent on stellar alignment. Just like the very early USB and Bluetooth days, it's a crap shoot.That same crap shoot applies to USB-C Power Delivery. Add USB-C PD and Thunderbolt, and, well, it's not pretty.Which leads me on to end user confusion of the USB-C/PD/Thuderbolt/Displayport connector. First, I love that it's reversible, how many times have we done the USB flip-flop? While it sounds like having the same connector for everything is a great idea, unfortunately much of what it can provide is optional, so the punter is going to be frustrated that some devices work with some devices but not others. Even at the simple cable level it's not clear if a cable will work. Do we really need a single connector for all, and pray it'll work, or is it less frustrating to have a visual cue by having a physically different connector?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 06:42:03 pm
content: Apple's embrace of FreeBSD based OS meant that a lot of people were exposed to the fact that Unix was/is much more robust and cleanly organized than Windows.Also, Apple includes lots of FOSS at the OS level and its accessible if you want to use it, far more so than under Windows.So in that very important respect, Apple was more "open" than Windows. Its always been possible to use OSX and use mostly free, Unix tools, if you want to. Getting out of the proprietary software trap as far as applications go.FOSS has steadily gotten better and better over the years too.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 06:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on August 27, 2017, 06:42:03 pmI remember people going to court because they tried to use or get OS X without also buying an Apple device. Requiring the purchase of a thousand dollar or more machine sounds proprietary-ish to me.Truth be told, Microsoft has changed course quite a bit the past few years. Rather than locking everything up and pushing out competition, significant effort is going into making everything as compatible as possible. The recent inclusion of Bash is a good example and Visual Studio would be another.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 07:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 27, 2017, 05:18:19 pmOr just devices which are broken and the vendor doesn't care (it works in Windows, test complete, ship it). Long, long list of HID devices requiring quirks or special drivers, often with fixups, to work correctly, in the Linux HID driver.https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/drivers/hid/hid-core.c#n1865https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/drivers/hid/usbhid/hid-quirks.c#n32Christ, the whinging I had to experience over this one:https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=01adc47e885f1127b29d76d0dfb21d8262f9d6b4

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 08:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on August 27, 2017, 06:25:52 pmYou don't need an Apple "license" to write a Mac driver! (In fact, you cannot distribute drivers via the app store.) I'm not even sure what you'd be licensing, since it's not about using Apple software, but writing software for it. Apple encourages companies to write drivers, and supports them in doing so (though MS does that better, admittedly), because it's better for the platform to have broader device support.Are you sure you aren't thinking of iOS, which is an entirely different beast in terms of third-party development?Quote from: b_force on August 27, 2017, 06:25:52 pmNot circles. Just correcting misinformation. Most of the misconceptions about the Mac platform are based on misinformation, which I can't entirely blame you for, since most media reports about it wrong.