MiSTer: Universal FPGA based emulator (vintage computers, consoles and arcades) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 03:35:02 pm
content: Hello,I searched this forum and did not find any relevant info regarding the MiSTer project:https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wikiIt is mentioned in a few posts regarding FPGA programming, but there is no dedicated thread, so I decided to start this one: not from a programming FPGA or electronics development point of view, but regarding Vintage Computing.MiSTer is a project that is built based on an earlier project called MIST:https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wikiThis device, which can be bought fully assembled, is based on a custom developed FPGA board. It emulates different vintage computer cores, but due to the low production runs, is relatively expensive.MiSTer is based on a clever idea: what if one was to used an existing FPGA development board? These are produced in much higher numbers and often subsidized when it comes to the sales price.The selected board is the Terasic DE10-Nano board. This board can be purchased at Mouser (reference: 993-P0496) for around 120 Euro + taxes (free shipping, at least for me).The bare board lacks a heat sink, which should be purchased, too. The Mouser reference is: 567-624-45ABT3.This already allows to emulate quite a few cores, but not all of them. In order to emulate all cores, a separate board is required, which adds SDRAM. These come in 32MB, 64MB and 128MB. Most cores work fine with 32MB, some require 64MB and a few NEOGEO games need 128MB.Then there is another board, the IO Board, which adds VGA output, audio output and, most important, a fan to cool the FPGA.I purchased a new kind of board, which is a combination of SDRAM board and IO board in one single board. It cost me around 70 Euro with shipping.Finally, there are free CAD models of suitable cases. I printed this one:https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2684660The result is great.So at the end of the day, I spent around 200 Euro to get a fully working MiSTer with 64MB SDRAM, all interfaces and a 64GB SD card.What can I do with it.Well, in my case I can emulate successfully:1) C64 - I have a real C64 with cloned 1541 (uses same ROM as the 1541) and 1701 monitor. The MiSTer core is in my opinion a full replacement, which works with an HDMI LCD monitor, giving the same experience. It only lacks the keyboard mapping icons, but this could be purchased as stickers. Even Final Cartridge 1 or 3 can be used and so does JiffyDOS. This is perfect!2) Amiga: Again, I own a real Amiga 500 with 1MB memory and second floppy drive. The MiSTer core is absolutely awesome. Not only does it emulate exactly my Amiga, it allows to emulate the newer ones with ECS and AGA, too. I found it much nicer to use the emulator than the real one. My next project will be to rebuild the "Amiga Floppy Reader", which uses a PC 3.5" floppy drive that attaches through USB to a PC and allows to copy over Amiga disks into ADF format. This core works so well, that it even runs A-Max II, ShapeShifter, etc. But I cannot test these emulators further due to lack of disk images. I don't think it is even possible to use an ADF disk that actually contains a MacPlus formatted image. Games run great.3) MacPlus: I did not like this core, because it won't accept most of my Mac disk images. These have to be exactly 800KB in size and most are not. You cannot just take what ever disk/HDD images you have for vMac and use them with this core. Also, it takes quite a while to boot.4) Apple II: All games work fine. I never owned an Apple II and this gives me an insight on this machine. I now know I did not miss anything when using my dear C64... Unfortunately you cannot emulate the CP/M board for Apple II, but there are other cores that allow CP/M emulation.5) Atari ST: This one works fine, but I never liked the Atari ST. It kind of sucks having to switch between color/mono monitors. Apparently this core has been developed to be cycle exact on hardware level with the developer taking care that different parts of the emulated CPU have the same layout as the real one.I tried many other cores, from Vectrex console (cool from a technology point of view, but not really interesting to play) to arcade consoles (Pacman and Ghosts'n'Goblins). The arcade cores have a feel like the real machine.There is even an Intel 486 core (with the performance of a 386).It is amazing what can be done with such a small device!Games can be easily downloaded searching "TOSEC xxx" (replace xxx with the machine you want). You will find a link fromwww.archive.org, which allows to basically download ALL disks/ROMs/cartridges for a specific machine in one download (usually 100MB-50GB, depending on the machine).Conclusion so far:1) I no longer have the need to seek eBay for vintage computers. I was considering buying an Atari ST (cheap - seems it is not a hyped machine), an Apple II (bit overpriced on ebay) or a C128D (very overpriced at ebay).2) It takes little space and can be hooked to any modern TV. This is really great.3) Almost no boot time: switch on, select core and that's it. No Windows/Linux to boot (well, technically there is a Linux kernel running on the MiSTer).4) You can fit thousands of games on a 64GB SD card.5) The novelty wears off quite quickly, as most games do suck and could be emulated on a PC anyway.I don't regret having purchased the MiSTer and it allows me (a sentimental person that sometimes needs to go back in time and relive good moments) to experiment with all the computers and consoles I did not own.But above all, I am now cured from getting more and more vintage computing stuff. I have all on FPGA level, which is closer than plain emulation.The only issue I have with all current FPGA implementations is that they don't offer ways to hook original hardware like floppy drives or cartridges.This is why I did not buy the C64 Mini and won't buy the C64 Max: they don't have connectors for the 1541 drive. Seems pointless if you cannot use your original disks.I have a way to convert existing C64 disks to D64 and hopefully will have a working solution for my Amiga disks.Hope you guys find this thread interesting and contribute.Most discussion regarding the MiSTer projects happens here, by the way:http://www.atari-forum.com/viewforum.php?f=117Regards,Vitor

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 05:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on November 14, 2019, 03:35:02 pmExactly

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 12:21:07 am
content: "Exactly"I did not mean to "steal" people from the Atari Forum here, if that is what you were suggesting with your comment.I started this thread for awareness on EEVblog - I wish I had understood the difference between MIST and MiSTer sooner!Afterall, this is the "Vintage Computing" forum here and people deserve to know about MiSTer.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 03:34:24 pm
content: While I have dabbled with FPGA replicas of rather old computers myself (http://e-basteln.de/computing/), I struggle to see the attraction of replicating microcomputers which are so readily available as used, real machines. You miss a lot without the form factor, clunky keyboard and blurry CRT screen of a real Apple ][ or other computer of that vintage...An FPGA-based Xerox Alto or Cray 1 would probably be the most modern machines of interest to me -- computers which charted new ground at their time, and are not easily found as real machines today. The Cray has been done, of course:https://www.chrisfenton.com/homebrew-cray-1a/,https://code.google.com/archive/p/cray-1x/.The Xerox Alto is still uncharted territory, I believe.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 04:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 15, 2019, 03:34:24 pmHappy memories programming MESA. My favourite was the Xerox Dandelion that had the off switch at knee level so if you forgot to save your work... one wrong move... and you powered off the machine.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 04:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 15, 2019, 03:34:24 pmFor me it's space. I have a collection of real vintage computers that takes up most of the closet in my guest room, occasionally I pull one out and spend a week or two messing with it. There are lots of significant machines I have no space for so that's where the FPGA stuff comes in. Also with the FPGA I can hack and modify to my heart's content without altering any original vintage hardware. I do use real CRT monitors whenever possible which adds tremendously to the feel of the FPGA recreations.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2019, 06:37:28 pm
content: I agree that space is the main issue that FPGA fixes.But there are more benefits:1) The MiSTer in a case is really tiny and not only supports all major vintage computers, it also contains (in my case) full TOSEC collections for the computers I am keen to use. Imagine fitting all Commodore, Apple and Atari vintage computers with all software ever made for them in a 15x10x5cm box!2) You can attach a modern HDMI monitor or TV. True, it does not give the same exact experience as a mono or color CRT, but it is so much more convenient.3) It has low power consumption and is based on new hardware, which should not break within the next 10 years or so. On real vintage computers you have to spend time taking care of them: leaking batteries of the clocks, dried up capacitors, oxidized PCB's, misaligned floppy drives, etc.There are some drawbacks of using MiSTer:1) Number one drawback for me is the lack of an original keyboard or at least original keyboard mapping and icons. Sure, one could do stickers or similar, but it is not the same thing.2) Because one can simply download the whole TOSEC software collections, one ends up going through tons of software instead of spending time with software that used to be dear to us.3) The historical/museum feeling is missing. Of course it feels nicer to use the original hardware! I would love to own a full Commodre 128D with monitor, CP/M disk, etc. Or a full featured Apple IIe with 2 floppy drives, CP/M board, 80 characters board, etc. But these cost a lot of money by now and I simply wouldn't have the space for them.I have read about the Cray - the story on how the last backup was recovered from tape is very interesting to read.But I guess this project lacks of software that could be run. The author is still looking for software donations to make this emulator useful.My dream of long date would be the existance of a SGi emulator (Indigo, Indy, O2 - whatever), running Irix 5.x or 6.xI own two O2 and one Indy (complete with camera, monitor, keyboard, mouse, external tape drives, CDROM, etc.) and full set of Irix OS (5.2, 5.3, 6.2), as well as, some compilers and even a Windows95 emulator for Irix!Such Irix emulator has never been done because there is no info on the main chips used by SGi (at least that is what I read).It is a shame that this company ceased to exist and there are no ways to keep the software running. Even on eBay it is not so simple to find them for sale. Last I saw was a SGi Octane (nice machine).SGi ended up buying Cray, by the way!Regards,Vitor