Classic analog moving coil multimeter, which are considered best ones ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 09:47:41 am
content: Deliberately post in General section instead of Test Instruments, as I love to hear from you guys owners, especially the experienced ones that had used them for decades. I guess this will become sort of nostalgic or probably sentimental discussion but yet still technical.Aware that each brands have their own range of various products, but my intention is mostly on common multi-meter functions, not the specific/niche function only.So among well known brands like Simpson, AVO Meter, Triplet, Heathkit and maybe others like Japanese brand like Sanwa maybe ? Which do you think is the best in term of built/features/quality ?And most important "why" (preferably in technical argument please) ?Or may be top 3 ?

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:05:08 am
content: None other than the Simpson 260.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:07:53 am
content: Quote from: Quarlo Klobrigney on March 11, 2018, 10:05:08 amOk, whats your bad experiences or rants maybe with other brand if any, that made you pick Simpson 260 series ?

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:25:10 am
content: From your title, I assume you are only interested in D'Arsonval meters. Simply put, Simpson Model 260 for rugged every day use in a industrial or lab environment. These meters were reliable, accurate and very rugged.The low cost player for this type of meter was the Radio Shack Micronta. This meter's only downfall was that it was not very rugged. The case was thin plastic and was easily broken. Other than that it could do everything the Simpson could do. The upside to it being thin plastic is that it was much lighter in weight than the heavy duty Simpson.I should mention that I worked in an industrial environment in the '80s and used both of these meters at different intervals. We often worked and checked 480 VAC mains. The shop provided the Simpson meters for technician use, so I used that, but my first owned meter was the Micronta. After accidentally dropping it from a 25 feet high gantry crane and it shattered into thousands of pieces, my next meter purchase was a Fluke 77 with the outer boot, which was SOOO much better than either of the D'Arsonval meters, which I will not go into. However, I will say that I accidentally dropped my 77 many times from up high and that meter was indestructible.As a footnote, I still have the 77 and it recently was caught in a rainstorm inside my new toolbox and, unknown to me, this toolbox leaked and filled with water. It wasn't until a day or 2 later that I discovered this and to my dismay, the 77 works no more.

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:04:05 am
content: tpowell1830Like he said.You've found it's Kryptonite, it's made of Bakelite

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:18:30 am
content: I like an use the MF-47. Its is the cheap one on ebay and comes in a kit. Seems to do almost everything the expensive digital meters do and only costs 13 dollars. When you need to fix something use this one. The only down side is it has a steep learning curve.

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:22:35 am
content: The Simpson 260 is rugged and accurate. They survived daily abuse by the students.Starting with the late model 5, they have a taut-band instead of jewels, that's even better.In 1971 I got a Sanwa U-50D, that I still have. It is not as rugged and accurate as the Simpson, but it has a " real " and very rugged selector switch.I regard any multimeter that uses the PCB as switch contacts as trash, because they tend to wear.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 09:24:05 pm
content: I liked the ICE supertester 680R that I used throughout 10 years of electronics - it was not very rugged, but it was fully featured for electronics, with dB, 100M ohms and frequency meter. I also loved the multiple jack interface. At the same time I used here and there some Samwas with the rotary switch but it really didn't feel the same.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:03:17 pm
content: When I was growing up, the Simpson 260 always seemed the practical "boring" choice, but I lusted after the Avo 8 multimeter probably because of its eccentricity.It is an interesting design. It uses a transformer for AC amps and the lower voltage ranges of AC volts which probably overcomes a lot of the traditional non-linearity of the AC volts ranges.They had high voltage inputs which went to over 2.5kV.It had an accurate but delicate movement. If you didn't leave the switches in a position that damped the meter movement, it easily got damaged in transit. The problem with the design is the switch positions you are most likely to leave the meter in does leave the meter undamped.The Avo 8 went through many Mark numbers and the internal construction changed totally over the years.With all these moving coil multimeters, you always had to have a second VTVM (vacuum tube voltmeter) on the bench for actual circuit design work. The input resistance of the multimeters was just to high.There was a period when you could get high impedance FET input multimeters, but for me at that stage, it was a matter for hanging out for an affordable digital multimeter.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 02:05:50 am
content: Unigor 6e (or eP), for the definitely biggest spread of ranges (down to 1mV/1µA FS), high Zin, Capacitance and precision. Also longevity, repairability and comprehensive electrical protection.Siemens Multizet A1000: Also hiZ, semi-auto ranging, bit more compactUnigor A43 is with 100k/V a very sensitive passive MM, also does capacitanceMetravo 4E is another nice FET portable MMMetravo 4H is a sensitive passive oneMetravo 4S is made for electrical/power, low Zin and 30A rangeLook athttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-multimeter!/msg1191159/#msg1191159In this post and the following ones I have written a bit more about some of them.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 06:11:43 am
content: The Simpson 260 is very highly regarded, but I'll also throw out the Triplett 630 as a very similar option:-Pat

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 09:22:31 am
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on March 12, 2018, 06:11:43 amPat, whats so special about the Triplet's 630 ?Looks like most votes go to Simpson 260.Apart from the tough case design and material, also the electronic components inside, hows the Simpson's "Taut Band Suspension" stood up between competing brands ? Did the competitor have similar feature ?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 09:32:11 am
content: Made this comparison last year (2017), the price of new Simpson 260 in 1946, even the current well known new Fluke 87V is cheaper.Click to enlarge

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 09:39:56 am
content: I've had a Japanese Kaise SK-160 for nearly 40 years and it's been an excellent meter and well spec'ed but despite its AC 1.2KV and DC 3KV ranges, an AVO 8 Mk5 has bettered it with HV measurements due to less burden in HV ranges.I like the Kaise for what it can do but if I had to chose .... AVO 8 Mk5.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 10:18:34 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 11, 2018, 09:24:05 pmSo, by your definition, every digital multimeter, Fluke, Brymen, Metcal are pieces of junk.

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 10:35:41 am
content: In the 80's, Fluke built DMMs with "real" rotary switches, I worked in that time servicing them.Just look inside of an old Fluke 75 Series I.I currently own a 179 and a 87 V. I like them, but I take care of rotate the switch slowly, to reduce wear.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 02:16:26 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on March 12, 2018, 10:18:34 amYeah, rightThat is the obvious conclusion of my "definition".Let me spell that for you:"it didn't feel the same" != "pieces of junk""Samwas" != "Fluke, Brymen, Metcal"past tense != present tense

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 02:44:31 pm
content: Hi rsjsouza and joseph nicholas, probably I am the one to blameThe post of rsjsouza came after mine.I am the one who consider, that using the pcb as contacts for the switch is a bad and cheap practice.I sustain, that analog VOMs that follow this practice are trash. The contacts tend to wear out and can completely fail, or a small contact resistance can alter the measure. With DMMs the problem exists, but as long as you are just digitally selecting a function, a small contact resistance usually poses not a problem.The Fluke 75 and similar models had a "real" rotary switch. I wish Fluke had made the same with the 87 VBy the way, those are the innards of the Sanwa U-50D from 1971

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 04:29:18 pm
content: the one I have now \/ but I have had various dick smith meters over the yrs.got a jaycar QM1020 analogue meter.https://www.jaycar.com.au/analogue-movement-multimeter/p/QM1020Security class Cat II 1000VBasic DCV accuracy 3%DC voltage 100mV, 500mV, 2.5V, 10V, 50V, 250V, 1000V (+-3%)AC voltage 10V, 50V, 250V, 1000V (+-4%)DC current 50µA, 2.5mA, 25mA, 250mA (+-3%)Resistance 2k, 20k, 200k, 2M, 20M (+-3%)Ave/RMS AVEInput impedance 10MSpecial features dB, continuity buzzerno need to switch it off.

author: mqsaharan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:08:17 pm
content: Hi ferdieCX,I have sent you a PM with a request. It was not relevant to the OPs question that is why I did not write it here.But I guess it is not that wrong to paste a few pictures of the switch assembly for the older version of the same meter Sanwa U50D.Don't worry, it is repaired now.Regards,Qasim.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:45:07 pm
content: Quote from: ferdieCX on March 12, 2018, 02:44:31 pmRe-reading the posts that seems to be the case, although joseph shouldn't have quoted my post in his reply.Quote from: ferdieCX on March 12, 2018, 02:44:31 pmInteresting that you mentioned PCB tracks; joeqsmith (a regular here) has done some interesting endurance tests with PCB rotary switches (checkthis thread).My problem at the time with the rotary switches was simply a modus operandi: I could get to the suitable range directly instead of going through each and every intermediate range - this was particularly troubling if I needed to go from AC to DC or vice versa, where on some of the meters I used I had to disconnect the probes as the steps would go throughor A ranges. Also, if you overstepped the DCV or the ACV you could fall into one of these two ranges as well - this was easier to happen with the smallest and tiniest multimeters with their very flimsy switches. On one occasion even the "Off" position would give me trouble, but I recall that was due to a bad switch. Oh, and these switches wore out quicker than modern ones.Since you mentioned, I also recall having the wiper issues you described, especially with the cheaper meters sold in Brazil at the time (Hung Chang was another brand I don't have good memories).(disclaimer: I have never used an AVO or a Simpson meter)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:49:32 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on March 11, 2018, 11:03:17 pmAbout the dampening, is it mechanical or electrical ? Simpson's is better ?

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 07:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 12, 2018, 05:45:07 pmI didn't knew about this thread. Thank you for pointing me to it.

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 01:53:24 am
content: I took electronics as a "major" in 1966-68. Most high schools were run on a shoe-string budget and mine was probably no different even though we had pretty good facilities and excellent teachers. But despite the budget my grade 11 and 12 classes were all outfitted with AVO mk8 meters. Now, 40 teenage neophytes bumbling about with those for 10 months at a time could do significant damage but I never heard of even one being smoked even though a standard joke was about "wrapping the needle around the post". I guess the automatic cut-out built into them saved the school more money than they could count.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 02:21:18 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 12, 2018, 02:16:26 pmMetcal? Didn't know they made multimeters.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 02:33:04 pm
content: Avo Model 8 for me!Some of the Metrix VOMs were pretty good, as were the Aussie made University Graham .

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 03:25:54 pm
content: We had individual Avo 8s in the lab, pre DMM. After years of reading about Avos, I remember being rather disappointed with handling one in the flesh. They seemed to have a bit too much bearing stiction on slow moving voltages and didn't seem that intuitive - the calibration dept guys were always moaning about how many movements they had to change because people had wrapped the needles.