The all new Raspberry Pi 400 keyboard PC - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 08:37:57 pm
content: There's a new Raspberry Pi 4 in town, the Pi 400."Featuring a quad-core 64-bit processor, 4GB of RAM, wireless networking, dual-display output, and 4K video playback, as well as a 40-pin GPIO header, Raspberry Pi 400 is a powerful, easy-to-use computer built into a neat and portable keyboard."Could this entry level machine be the next ZX Spectrum?Check it out:https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-400/Ask Santa

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 10:17:48 am
content: It's a neat package (and it does come in various version with international keyboard layouts). But I can't come up with an excuse for ordering it...What would I do with a slow Linux desktop computer? And while the keyboard + computer package is nicely nostalgic and compact, it is not really portable since it still requires an external screen and mains power. My personal use cases are better served by a cheap netbook or older notebook.

author: georgian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 01:43:13 pm
content: And no more composite output, nor analog audio output. It's sad that it's meant to buy more adaptors and convertors.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 02:40:11 pm
content: More landfill.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 02:15:42 am
content: For poor families that have kids who need a computer for home classes, who already have a TV with HDMI, its a good product for a stressful time that doesn't impact the family budget much and does the things it needs to do. All the software for it is also free which is a huge plus.Not being a PC laptop might be a plus because fewer distractions that are not educational. It also saves space which is tight for a lot of people.A compatible USB audio dongle by SYBA with headphone optical digital out and mike/line in jacks cost me exactly $2 not long ago and the audio is quite good.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 08:56:42 am
content: Not quite. The whole RPi platform is fairly unreliable and complex to use outside of the very rocky valley of "sort of works". All it takes is one minor edge case or a problem and they're up shit creek without any support.I cite an example of this as my daughter's school which has a large crate full of duff Raspberry Pi's which either died, the HDMI connector broke or have trashed SD cards. No one has the time to work out how to fix them or wants to expend the time to fix them because you need another raspberry Pi or another PC to fix the SD card problems. They dropped them for lessons within a month after they worked out that it 1 hour an hour of a 2 hour lab session to get everyone up and running to the point they could do anything, then the rest of the lesson was spent playing whack-a-mole. So they went back to the Lenovo all-in-one PCs running windows 10 with python which are all up and working within 10 minutes and have single sign-on and network home directories so you dont have the logistics issues of what to do with the stuff you've done on it.A better solution for any home is a recycled PC desktop. THIS is a far better spend:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283400662567The entire Raspberry Pi 400 idea is fault. It's marketing and nothing more.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 12:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 10, 2020, 08:56:42 amThey still can promote to schools, uni etc and get biffy orders."Nobody ever got fired for choosingIBMRaspberry Pi"

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 03:52:32 pm
content: The RPI uses so much less power than an old PC. Lots of old servers are being tossed out by the truckload because they use so much more power than their modern equivalents.And the RPI ecosystem of educational materials and magazines and the like and hackerspace/maker focused contentmeets a need in getting kids, especially, into both computing and electronics in a fun way.So, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm sure you have lots of good reasons for yourself, but I don't feel the same way.Sure the new 400 is not as good a deal as the 4B by itself, but its handy for teaching, I suspect, especially, because of the time it likely saves when setting up the room between classes. Not a lot, maybe two or three minutes, but it adds up.I wish more people had computing skills. It would be a huge help to many in finding decent work.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 05:25:29 pm
content: It makes about £2 a month difference between a reasonably bad desktop and an RPi which is insignificant. Although I'm interested to see where Apple go with their ARM based machines in that space. I have an M1 mini and it pulls 20W flat out and doesn't make a sound and was cheaper than equivalent desktops to boot!The ecosystem is a good point and I see an advantage there but the ecosystem isn't really the raspberry pi but Linux by association. And that runs on pretty much anything, including trash PCs.WRT to setup time they would need to tear down each RPi node every lesson to stop accumulated software damage which points to what I was saying earlier. That has a not insignificant time and staff cost. On top of that you then have the logistic issue of "how can the student save their work" which is a non trivial problem on that platform. Then there's the unreliable storage issues.I think regardless it's still a poor investment for the use cases they push and cannot support the idea at all.On computer literacy, it depends what the industry needs and it certainly isn't what they teach at schools and universities.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 06:11:53 pm
content: "What the industry needs" is a moving target. And I agree, its rarely taught in schools and universities, at least in interesting jobs.The thing I keep coming back to in my own mind mentally, is how (in my opinion) as children's brains are growing very rapidly, and also as public schools everywhere are perpetually underfunded, and teachers are in extremely short supply the earlier we expose kids to these contexts, the better.Youre right about Linux being installable on any computer new and old and also about thats really the value adder.. but then I think of my own experience. Even in the late 1980s in the Bay Area had I not been exposed to people who took the time to explain Unix and get me on the Internet, I never would have heard of it. And its still like that today, most internet users just use a few applications and have little idea of what is actually happening there, even people who should, we would think, be experts.If we took a totally random sample of 100 internet users, even in a major city in a major developed country, how many would be doing anything technical or with electronics? Five? Ten? but that would be pushing it. Even in a tech mecca like the Bay Area, which may be one of the most tech literate places in the world, penetration of tech literacy is still a lot lower than many would think.We have to start them earlier and it has to be more than just schoolwork or a homework assignment.Look, many of you are engineers, beneficiaries of a formal education that introduced each concept in order, and provided in many cases, an ideal structured environment for learning. But that is already in many cases fairly late in life - Maybe late teens or in many cases, 20s or even older. I venture to guess that many of you were already deep into the subject. But I'm sure you also shared classes with at least some students who also seemed to literally be picking up their soldering irons for the first time in those classes. Lots probably went on to do something else, eventually. Maybe using their skills for that, maybe not. But hopefully, they picked up the engineer's way of looking at things. Its likely many here already had it. You were likely already curious, incurable curious. In a way it can be like a desease, almost, but a happy one.Maybe if they were younger they never would have had torelearn curiosity.I hope its not insulting-sounding for me to draw certain parallels between engineering and the rapid brain growth and curious aspects of childhood. I mean that in a complementary way. Thats the way I was as a child and thankfully Ive never lost it. Even though I know I'm not as sharp in many was as I was when I was younger, I'm still leaning at an age when it seems many are just coasting. I think thats what we should be aiming for.So sure, its boring looking at a lot of RPI projects, many of which are kind of alike and not so original, atthe same time, it a uniquely successful effort and it seems they get it, they get the magic.Hey they help young people learn the lingo too.. not just the things they can do, this is important because they might even undersand the literaure of academia by the time they arrive in it,How many other college freshmen would? I wonder what they would think "physical computing" meant, for example.Thats guaranteed to put them in a better position when the time comes to hand out the grades..So many important things depend on our younger generation hitting the ground running with computers and computing. And not just being passive consumers of vapid "content" flowing in a one way direction.So I guess what I am meaning to say is I am happy to give them my money. Even if there are lots of cheaper alternatives.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 08:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 10, 2020, 03:52:32 pmI have 3 of the Pi 400s, one of which will be a Christmas gift. They make a really nice Linux environment for just puttering around. I used a 256 GB SD card so I won't be running out of space any time soon. I also upgraded the mouse to a wireless model because the Pi mouse has only two buttons and a wheel. I miss the forward and back buttons.The Pi 400 doesn't have the audio jack and this is a PITA! I bought a USB => Audio adapter and plugged it in. Then I had to Google for "Pi enable USB audio" or something like that to find out I had to be a superuser and edit a configuration file after using some mysterious utilities to determine which sound card I was using. You just have to hate Linux for the configuration files! In any event, in about 10 minutes I had it running. For an experienced user, this is no big deal and editing configuration files is just part of Linux. For a brand new user? Well, it might not be as simple. The instructions (link below) do work!I have plenty of monitors that support HDMI so I am using a 27" Samsung and the system is quite useable as a workstation. It's not blistering fast but it's not all that bad either. Yes, I have several 4Bs but they are kind of disorganized on the table. This Pi 400 is a really nice system.For anybody that cares, here are the instructions for USB Audio:https://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/2019/06/using-a-usb-audio-device-with-the-raspberry-pi/And the adapter I used:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044EOQO4The mouse:https://www.amazon.com/TeckNet-Bluetooth-Wireless-Mouse-BM308/dp/B000Q7V0W4

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 01:57:53 am
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on November 03, 2020, 08:37:57 pmI have to say that's what came to my mind. My first three computers were ZX80/81/SpectrumIt's really hard to take the criticism of this seriously - it's 93 UK pounds. For that, you get a fully-functional desktop with fantastic video. And you get to fart about with all the hardware fun and games that the 40-pin header enables. So you can learn electronics and Python yet still hop on the 'net when you need.Now, if it had a dead-flesh keyboard option, hey...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:11:28 am
content: The Pi 4 and the Pi 400 aren't dead slow. They are a quad core 1.5 GHz processor so compute performance isn't all that bad. No, it won't keep up with my high end workstation (high end about 5 years ago!) but it's not totally lame either.There is a Copy SD utility and if you have one of those USB<->SD adapters, you can create an exact duplicate of the running SD card. It isn't all that fast but it works real well.It might be worth keeping a notebook about packages added and those built from source. This will help in the recovery effort.If you totally hose the system, just reinstall the image and start over. Hopefully you have backed up /opt and /home/<user> to your NAS but building a fresh image is pretty easy. The nice thing is that you haven't lost any money on license fees.These days just about everything, including WiFi, work right out of the box. WiFi used to be a nightmare some years back but they have it solved given that the WiFi chip is a known entity and they don't have to accept every conceivable dongle on the market.Of those downplaying the Pi 400, how many have actually driven one? For $100, they're not bad at all!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 06:48:38 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on December 26, 2020, 01:57:53 amI stepped over this reply without reflecting on the GPIO header. You know, it's darn hard to rig an I2C bus to a PC. You might get the FTDI chips to work but I'm not too sure how it works on the host in terms of custom code. With the Pi, Linux and Python, it's easy!I have 3 of these kits (as Amazon reminds me):https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06W54L7B5There are MANY projects to play with and they are all based on Python or C and the Pi GPIO header. There are a bunch of experiments that would be interesting to the new learner. All of the code is given but it is possible to create other experiments based on what is given. Certain libraries are included as source and need to be built. Full instructions provided!I highly recommend the Freenove Ultimate Starter Kit for anybody who wants to play with the Pi hardware.Best scenario: Run the experiments on the same Pi 4 that is hosting the Analog Discovery 2 Waveforms software. Use two monitors, one to drive the experiment from the terminal and one with am AD2 scope display showing the outputs. Debugging on the same platform as the experiment!I don't have mine set up with two displays. Maybe later on...

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 07:01:24 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 26, 2020, 06:48:38 pmThanks for the suggestion. I just ordered one. Something to do on New Year's Day

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:20:46 pm
content: IIRC, the only significant difference between their Ultimate Arduino kits' hardware and their Ultimate Pi kit hardware is the latter needs an ADC module (either PCF8591 or ADS7830) as the Pi doesn't have built-in ADC.If you already have a similar Arduino kit, using it with a Pi and their tutorial is an option as the two types of ADC module are readily available from many sellers, although, *PLEASE* find something you'd like to buy fromFreenove, to support the hard work they put into their tutorials.Re: BD139's point: As the Pi 4 and presumably the Pi 400 can be configured to boot from Ethernet without a SD card present, there is no excuse other than lack of funding for I.T. support (including Linux admin training for the support team), for not managing them centrally, similar to the school's management of Windows systems, avoiding all the issues with SD card corruption and maintaining a consistent state for each class.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 08:29:39 pm
content: I ran 50 NetBoot sun workstations back in the day and recently ran a massive NFS cluster. That is no panacea, merely a different set of problems to solve which may be even more horrible. I bet no one has even administered anything NFS basedThe least shitty solution (there is no best one) in a classroom is either chromeos or windows with some 3rd party tear down software. Apple could have made some decent wins here as it’s actually Unix but they fucked that completely.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 11:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 26, 2020, 08:20:46 pmThat's true in terms of the parts and most of the experiments. However, there is the matter of the 40 pin extension cable and the nicely annotated T connector that attaches to the breadboard. Like this:https://www.amazon.com/Pastall-Breakout-Expansion-Assembled-Raspberry/dp/B082PRVRYRQuoteIndeed! Their tutorials and code are spot on. I haven't found a single "oopsie" in any of the experiments I have done. It's nice to have working code for other projects. It may not be the end result but it is a step along the development path.For those new to Linux, there is quite a bit of command line learning going on. Just a side benefit!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 01:39:05 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 26, 2020, 08:29:39 pmWhich was more powerful, those 50 Suns or ONE keyboard sized RPI 400??But, there are a bunch of them!Where are the computers again? (looking round, under the desks, in the closet?)But, now we have to heat the building!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2020, 09:54:34 am
content: Completely missing the point about NFS being a piece of shit if it’s a top end Cray or a 25MHz SPARCstation...

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 02:49:55 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on December 26, 2020, 07:01:24 pmSo, it arrived today. I am mightily impressedIt starts with the classic LED on/off using C and Python. Then takes you on a journey through buzzers, transistors, motors, stepper motors, servos, ADC (all explained in C and Python), only to end up back with just an LED and a resistor on the breadboard - but controlled remotely by creating a web server on the RPi. Very impressive.Here's the (abbreviated) ToC (all components provided):Chapter 1 LEDChapter 2 Buttons & LEDsChapter 3 LED Bar GraphChapter 4 Analog & PWMChapter 5 RGB LEDChapter 6 BuzzerChapter 7 ADCChapter 8 Potentiometer & LEDChapter 9 Potentiometer & RGBLEDChapter 10 Photoresistor & LEDChapter 11 ThermistorChapter 12 JoystickChapter 13 Motor & DriverChapter 14 Relay & MotorChapter 15 ServoChapter 16 Stepper MotorChapter 17 74HC595 & Bar Graph LEDChapter 18 74HC595 & 7-Segment DisplayChapter 19 74HC595 & LED MatrixChapter 20 LCD1602Chapter 21 Hygrothermograph DHT11Chapter 22 Matrix KeypadChapter 23 Infrared Motion SensorChapter 24 Ultrasonic RangingChapter 25 Attitude Sensor MPU6050Chapter 26 Web IoTChapter 27 Soldering a Circuit Board

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 03:00:25 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 26, 2020, 08:29:39 pmLast employer (Web hoster), we had Solaris as Webserver OS and Netapp filers that provided all data via NFS. Worked like a charm. But its true, in most non-BSD-based environments NFS translates to: "Nightmare File System"On a side note: Netapp and Yahoo both contributed lots of code regarding NFS to FreeBSD, which is heavily used in their operations/products...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 10:08:17 pm
content: I guess by "next ZX Spectrum" you meant a very affordable home computer, but the next Spectrum actually exists and it's a lot sexier:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Spectrum_Next

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 10:37:21 pm
content: That keyboard is going to be shit. I can tell already. At least it's a proper Spectrum then.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 11:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: georgian on November 04, 2020, 01:43:13 pmComposite is really low resolution and not very popular with PCs even in the 90s - out of all the monitors I've owned that predate HDMI, exactly one supports composite, several support DVI, and all support VGA.I have only used the analog audio output on a Raspberry Pi once and that was to check how good/bad it is. (It was about what you can expect from a budget motherboard, which is what a Pi is after all.) Otherwise, most would use the audio over HDMI and a few might connect an external DAC. Not much different from the move to eliminate the 3.5mm output on many smartphones in favor of USB-C.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 07:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 02, 2021, 11:35:30 pmIIRC, the RPi doesn't even have any DAC, so the audio output is actually just PWM. I'd say it's not even on par with what you'd expect from a budget motherboard.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 03:01:02 pm
content: Has anybody attempted virtualization on the higher memory RPI4's?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 06:48:52 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 03, 2021, 07:10:37 pmIn terms of the Pi 400, they don't even bring the audio out. You either get sound via HDMI or you get it with a USB -> Audio adapter. I suppose it is possible to play with PWM but I would personally limit that to piezo devices.I think some of the folks are not looking at the big picture or might not have it properly framed. There is no reason to buy a Pi 400 for a desktop UNLESS that 40 pin header and connections to external gadgets is a desirable feature. It is darn hard to code up an I2C example for a PC but to try for SPI, I2C and UART is a lot of work on a PC that isn't required on any Pi. It could probably be argued that the Pi 400 form factor isn't the most efficient form factor for creating these signals but if a Pi 4 is chosen, it would still need an external keyboard. You simply have to have a keyboard somewhere. What the Pi 400 delivers is a little more compact footprint in exchange for more limited keys. It is also a pretty decent desktop. Not blistering fast but no dog either.So far, I'm happy with the Pi 400 but I like the Pi 4 as well.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 09:30:31 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 04, 2021, 03:01:02 pmI don't enjoy punching my own testicles thanks

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 05:46:52 am
content: When compiling a few 100 lines of C it to 1s on my Laptop, < 0.5s on a Pi 400.Then when comparing linked lists vs realloc()ing larger larger arrays it was faster too (completely CPU limited)Pi was also faster running some naïve-but-not-THAT-bad FFT code.(Yes my laptop is a old dog, and I am running stuff under WSL, but shows the Pi as being reasonably good)

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 06:55:01 am
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on January 08, 2021, 05:46:52 amThanks for the examples. Could you state the CPU type and clock rate of that old laptop, for a better perspective on the Raspberry performance?

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 07:52:31 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 08, 2021, 06:55:01 amAMD A10-9600P RADEON R5, 10 COMPUTE CORES 4C+6G16GB RAM.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 03:22:36 pm
content: Does your laptop have an SSD or not?What I've noticed is that GCC tended to be faster on Linux than on Windows, but here you seem to be using Linux on your laptop too?(The same code compiles faster with GCC on my laptop, which has an older generation Core i7, on Linux, than on my workstation, which has a much more powerful Core i7, but on Windows.)

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 04:38:46 pm
content: Below is proof that this is NOT new, instead being little more than an inexpensive clone.

author: alex-sh
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2021, 08:36:48 pm
content: It depends.I have had an RPi 3 running 24/7 as a home automation server for years. It is small and no fan AND it has got Linux!Another RPi I used as a desktop computer without any issues. Again it is Linux not Windows 10.Personally, I have had only positive experience with RPi running Linux. However, I think you may be right about the RPi running Windows. I just do not have any experience with Windows on RPi.Quote from: bd139 on December 10, 2020, 08:56:42 am

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2021, 08:47:53 pm
content: On that matter a list of failures:https://blog.jmdawson.co.uk/i-bought-200-raspberry-pi-model-bs-and-im-going-to-fix-them-part-1/

author: GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2021, 03:24:14 am
content: One of my best mates who works at Telstra just ordered this as a desktop PC replacement. He is part of a growing trend of the work from home pandemic crowd that are looking to Pi 400s as alternatives to setting up work computer systems at home. Needless to say the entire production run of Pi 400 sold out so the Raspberry Pi foundation will order another production run. If it keeps selling it will tell them what they have been waiting for, a clear signal it is a successful new product segment and Pi 500 and Pi 600 and so on will soon follow. If I didn't invest so much in the ultra latest home PC system I would seriously consider jumping onto a Pi 400 too. Its just so hard having build an uber system to think I could use a system with just 4GB Ram again but I probably could do just fine.