LED lighting and planned obsolescence, intentional or not. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 02:53:53 am
content: This is just for the LED lighting planned obsolescence and regulation discussion that was happening in the superconductors thread that I moved to here, as it was off topic for superconductors.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 03:03:57 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 04, 2023, 05:58:05 amThat is exactly what i'm not saying. I'm saying they are doing it as a side effect, not on purpose, at least not directly.For any product you need to come up with an expected life-span requirement that you want to achieve so you have something to check against and verify the design. The lifespan requirement is often decided by competitors products and by the market.Instead of looking at that question with an eye towards what's best for the product and best for the consumer they are looking at it as an exercise of lowering BOM cost and maximizing profits.In most cases the cost to make it last 5x longer is not even $0.05, it's free, just change the value of a resistor to run the LED at 50% brightness so the temps are all under control and the bridge rectifier is not running at 105C and not cooking the electrolytic cap and LEDs. At 50% brightness you might need 2 of them or you might need a larger version to light your room, but that is a different issue.The main problem is that to sell LED lights with proper lifespans the cost would be higher as you might need more of them, and companies selling them would lose money because the public are stupid and will usually buy the cheaper product and save a little cash even if it only last 20% as long.This is why we need legislation against planned obsolescence, either intentional or unintentional.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 04:43:36 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 03:03:57 amOk, then we agree and this discussion is over.QuoteI was with you until you started talking about the absurd idea of legislating "planned obsolescence". Now, you have gone off the rails.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 04:48:31 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 05, 2023, 04:43:36 amWe can't keep manufacturing trash and filling up landfills with throw-away devices, or devices that might as well be.Well... I guess we could, but it would trash the earth and probably kill us eventually. It's not something anyone wants.I guess it's possible companies might start to do it on their own if public option shifts enough to change purchasing habits and affects their profit. But if that happens it's likely to cause new laws anyway.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 07:42:09 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 03:03:57 amI'm certain they *are* doing this on purpose. Imagine your light bulbs last "forever". Selling you a full set of bulbs is a one-time-business, after that all manufacturers can close their doors, as there is no need of further supply ever again. And there is hardly any tech cycle, requirin new "hardware".Forcing a longer lifespan howevery is a very good thing though, as this is eventually toxic electronic waste, which should be avoided.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 07:50:54 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on August 05, 2023, 07:42:09 amSo the only possibilities are inferior products that fail as soon as the warranty is up, or products that last forever?I think I need to stop reading EEVblog. This place is insane!

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 08:17:19 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 05, 2023, 07:50:54 amYour inability or unwillingness to understand or recognise context is quite annoying, much like talking to a smart-aleck child.Modern manufacturing business models rely on replacement sales to sustain them, which should be pretty much obvious to anyone; once you've reached market saturation, you either live off replacement/upgrade sales, or you die. Apple's iPhone is a very good example of this.Incandescents aren't a great example for commercial and industrial lighting models as they haven't been used in large numbers for decades. The costs of fluorescents was well understood, in terms of installation, running, and maintenance costs. LED lighting has thrown this for a loop; we've effectively been sold a pup, where promises about longevity haven't proved reliable, and because of the heavy integration of LED lamps into fittings, the replacement costs have risen hugely, particularly in installations that incorporate architectural or decorative luminaires.Domestic customers are less affected, since most of their lighting uses some variation of ES or BC lamp units, which makes them quick and easy to replace when they fail.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 08:23:19 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on August 05, 2023, 07:42:09 amyeah, I could be wrong but I don't think most are doing it on purpose at an malicious or intentional level, like i don't think they're having meetings about how they can improve their policy of planned obsolescence, or withholding bonuses if the engineering teams products last more than 25% longer than the warrantee length when tested internally. (yeah I know stuff like that actually happened for incandescent lamps a long time ago).I thinks 90% of it is just chasing profit and planned obsolescence comes out of that as an unintended consequence, which they don't mind because they sell more product. I'm sure they know they are effectively doing it but just don't talk about it. It's a convenient side effect that they have no incentive to fix. A new player enters the market and copies their competitors because doing anything else makes their company non-viable.It's ultimately the publics fault for buying cheap junk, or saving a few dollars now when it will cost a lot more later.But you cant easily make people less dumb, so the only real option is regulation. I would love to see critical thinking and problem solves skills be a required class at school though.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 08:33:10 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 02:53:53 amRecently with new SMD tweezers:Quote from: tautech on July 20, 2023, 07:39:00 amIt's interesting the driver supply current can be set by way of configuration resistors and after reading the datasheet I don't believe the driver is at fault however the LED's may have been driven too hard after finding several in each fixture had failed.Pushing the envelope to gain best bang for buck (brightness) certainly is the manufacturers fault rather than adopting for a more conservative configuration.Still waiting for 3535 LED's.....have any Psi ?

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 08:37:19 am
content: What do you call planned obsolescence?My Ikea bulbs have been working for almost 10 years. Only recently one started flickering.Going for $1 bulbs is not planned obsolescence, you know the parts inside have John's Goodenough QA.Bought a chinese bulb as a temporal fix, lasted 4 days

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 08:39:43 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 05, 2023, 07:50:54 amI wish i could understand your point of view.Which of these statements do you disagree with.1) Most LED lights run way to hot and fail early because of it.2) The LED lights above would last way longer if they didn't run them so hot.3) Making them run at under 50C is trivial (be lowering output wattage) and would add next to nothing to product cost. Obviously cost to consumer would be a little higher as they might have to buy more lights or bigger light get same output, but the product lasting for so much longer would make up for that by many times.4) Most companies are never going to voluntary make changes that cost next to nothing but make longer lasting products because it's going to reduce profit. (unless there's a major shift in public buying habits and people stop trying to save a dollar now even if it cost $5 later)5) The best way to fix this is for the government to pass some sort of law that prevents companies making consumable products that perform badly when there's no technical reason for it. Or by forced warranty length in industries where there are these problems, like lighting.I know the exact law and how it works would need to have a lot of thought. And implementing it is not that easy but i think it's totally doable.I suspect your issue is with point 5 and I suspect its due to you being very antigovernment regulation.Which I assume is because the government where you are is maybe not working for the people.And if so, i would put forward that the issue is then with the government not working, rather than an issue with a law to stop or help reduce planned obsolescent. Apologies if one of my assumptions in this paragraph is wrong, it's just a guess.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 08:46:37 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on August 05, 2023, 08:37:19 amYep, there is a wide range of quality levels and some are ok.A law to stop planned obsolescence does not need to take the form of regulating how things are made, it can simply be laws that block importing and selling of crap quality products that fail early or forcing warranty lengths.However that does put a lot of pressure on sellers though, If for example a law said that all LED lights sold must have a 10 year warrantee for example. Then it's almost impossible for a retailer to know if what they are buying is going to last that long when they buy it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 09:11:17 am
content: I think we as consumers also should share some of the blame when instead we should be insisting on product MTBF specifications.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 09:15:31 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 05, 2023, 09:11:17 amYep absolutely. The core of the problem is most people are pretty stupid, or usually just uneducated, and they're pushing money into companies that produce trash.There's also the people living pay check to pay check who will always buy the cheapest version they can get their hands on.If cheap rubbish didn't exist they would perhaps have to deal with less light in their house until they could afford a 2nd light but overall they would be much better off and have more money (not having to replace it every year). And E-waste would be reduced.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 10:19:24 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 03:03:57 amHow could unintentional planned obsolescence even exist? Planned obsolescence by definition meansplanningthe obsolescence; you can’t unintentionally plan something, since planning requires forethought and intent.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 10:21:15 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 05, 2023, 09:11:17 amIs that even fair? The average consumer can really only read the packaging which says the lights will last 20,000 - 50,000hrs or whatever BS figure, and due to the length of time involved it's exceptionally hard to make a claim of false advertising stick.I agree with the theme of the thread. I'm tired of hearing that companies need an unlimited benefit-of-the-doubt pass until the end of time considering how long this discussion has been going on across just about every aspect of consumer products.At the very least, every major company has had an engineering meeting where the balance of cost, repairability and longevity were discussed and clearly the latter 2 have been given the lower priority more often.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 11:47:36 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 05, 2023, 10:19:24 amMaybe a better name for the concept is Unnecessary Obsolescence.I was just trying to include situations where the company was making a product with an unnecessary short life-span but there was no planning involved, or at least not planning to make it fail sooner.To avoid the company side-stepping any rule by claiming they never planned to make their product become obsolescence sooner and are therefor not guilty of planned obsolescence.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 12:26:23 pm
content: Lamp life should have a similar grading system to energy efficiency. Part of the grade based on say a couple months high temperature high humidity stress testing, part based on best guess component longevity in standard luminaires by the manufacturer (with clear fraud being prosecuted down the line).Using film capacitors, hermetic sealing and low power density you could probably make LED lamps which outlive me at this point and it wouldn't have to be very expensive.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 02:48:17 pm
content: There is a kind of defacto > 20khr claimed lifetime for LED lamps. So they design for that time frame and as a lifetime estimate is not easy they sometimes end up failing earlier, e.g .with a higher than standard temperature. A design for a given MTBF is normal and in some cases (parts with predictable aging) leads to a fixed time to failure. The point is just if that time frame is given and reliable.Some grading system for the lifetime would be ideal, but it is essentially impossible to test that reliable up-front and with possible minor product changes over time. It worked with the old incandecent lamps with usually 1000 h and some 2000 h and few 100/300 h lamps as that is still a timeframe that can be tested. 20 kHz are some 2.5 years and this is longer than many LED lamps are on the market.If parts fail early, you know which brand not to buy in the future.A point that could help would be a thermal rating for the sockets / lamp housings, so that one know what power one could use without running them extra hot and thus a reduced lifetime. That part would at least be a part that could be measured relatively easy and is thus well defined. With higher temperature use the lifetime is naturally small - still some 10000 or just 5000 hours would not be that bad.So far I can not complain much about failing LED lamps: most of them last long and only a few (e.g. 1 out of 10) early failures.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 06:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 08:39:43 amYou are stating that as if it were fact, which it is not. I have LED bulbs that burn for years without problem, because they are not enclosed and have clear airflow. When the same bulb brands have restricted airflow, the bulbs burn out within a year typically.QuoteAgain, your supposition, not a fact. It is not valid logic to make an assumption, then use that to prove the assumption is valid.QuoteOr, you can use them with proper airflow so they don't get hot. LED bulbs don't use much power, so they will not run hot in an open lamp or other fixture with adequate airflow.QuoteIf the problem were the design, this might be valid. I don't care. I buy name brands with a warranty. The store will also give me a refund if the bulbs burn out prematurely, but I don't recall that happening since I removed the air flow restrictions.QuoteLOL!!! There's absolutely no response needed to this.QuoteAnd pointless.QuoteLOL No, I am fully in support of government regulation where it is useful. This is not one of those situations. Regulation is not going to make your bulbs last longer, because very few people are going to return a light bulb to the store and the store is going to eat the cost and throw the bulb in the trash.I'm done discussing this with you. Bye.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 06:15:54 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 05, 2023, 09:11:17 amTake a crap in the box, but put a warranty on the outside! Yeah, good idea.These arelightbulbs, not components in a design. Almost no one returns a burnt out light bulb and the few that do get returned are tossed in the trash by the store. No one is held accountable, no matter what it says on the outside of the box!

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 06:37:50 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on August 05, 2023, 02:48:17 pmA documented estimate based on projected MTBF of components in standardized luminaires (which for GU10 should be recessed ceiling lights with a glass cover) would still be useful. If their documentation is for polymer/film caps and they threw in wet electrolytics, that's just plain fraud. If they just swapped parts and their best effort estimate stays the same or better, then let them keep using the same type number.I don't need a guarantee, just a best effort estimate. It will be easy enough to see if they are taking the mickey, BOMs are small and failure modes predictable.If you start doing it for complex appliances, then it would be far harder to judge honesty.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 08:06:13 pm
content: Last I heard, a fundamental thermal problem with LED bulb-shaped objects that fail prematurely is that the heat-producing and thermally-sensitive electronics are mounted near the base while the actual LEDs are spaced apart in the bulbous globe.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 08:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 09:15:31 amThat assumes they could afford the upfront cost of the 'better' light in the first place. People living in a precarious financial state don't have the funds to invest in the future. Buy a good light and something else doesn't get bought. Or buy a cheap light and the other thing. So it's going to cost them more in the future because they'll buy many cheap lights instead of one good one, but when you don't have the funds to invest that's what happens. Same applies to food (and everything else) - they pay more for their food because they can only afford single-portion sizes and/or poor quality, whereas someone with money will buy in bulk and save overall.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 09:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on August 05, 2023, 08:06:13 pmThis isn't a problem for LED lamps specifically. Some halogen lamps also suffer from this problem leading to extremely short lives for the lamps.What worries me more is that some LED lamps (or better put: light fixtures) can not be seperated from their fitting at all. So if the light fixture fails, it needs to be replaced entirely instead of just changing the lamp part.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 10:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on August 05, 2023, 08:37:19 amAgreed. Buy cheap, buy twice... one issue will be a lot of people don't comprehend this and do buy cheap LED bulbs that end in landfill.Personally I've had only one LED bulb fail on me and that was a novelty smart bulb a friend gifted me. Every other bulb has been rock solid.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 10:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 05, 2023, 08:30:58 pmYou seem to have missed the point I was making here. There's no more upfront cost of the "better" light.The cost is the same. The only difference is the value of the resistor that sets its output wattage which has been changed to reduce the thermals to something that will not fail prematurely. If you can't afford a higher wattage light or multiple lights you just have a dimmer room. But at least you can see everything.If a room light is changed from 20W to 15W or 10W, sure it's not as nice but it's totally usable. You don't have to drop the power by much to massively increase lifespan.Also LEDs tend to be more efficient at lower power anyway, so there is additional savings there.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 10:23:31 pm
content: QuoteThat's a manufacturer thing and completely irrelevant to the punter. All they know is the 50p job from China is doable whereas the £15 one from Osram isn't, and you know which will have the resistor of an appropriate value.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 10:35:59 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 05, 2023, 10:23:31 pmah, so your argument is that any law for planned obsolescence wouldn't work because people would just privately import the cheap junk from china getting around any regulations?yep, it's a fair point, but I'd be happy if just the local hardware stores would refuse to sell the cheap junk LED lamps unless they get manufacture to be lower wattage to make them thermally ok.Stores already have to check things for electrical safety when they import stuff to sell locally. Wouldn't he hard for them to pay attention to the temp the thing runs at.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 10:40:13 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 10:35:59 pmI've said nothing for or against any such law, regulation, guideline, whatever. You are projecting what you wanted me to have said, but I have not. Please stop.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 10:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 05, 2023, 10:40:13 pmI started with 'ah, so your argument is' and had a question mark on that sentence because I was not sure if I was understanding your point correctly and I was happy to be corrected if I was wrong. There is no need to get angry here.Quote from: PlainName on August 05, 2023, 10:40:13 pmSo what is your point here? Yes, cheap the china ones have resistors that run the LED hot currently.Ideally we want china to put resistors on them to make them run at a lower temp.Local companies order and review china parts to purchase in bulk based on their requirements.If their requirements are changed by some new law and they start to put pressure on their china supplier to manufacture them at a lower wattage they will. Just like they put pressure on the china suppliers to manufacture them with correct earthing and mains safety for local regulations. It may not be perfect 100% of the time but for the most part stuff you buy in the store complies with local regulations.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 11:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 10:54:19 pmI was refuting the idea thatQuoteandQuoteis practical for those of little means. 'Buy once' can be a luxury that poor people simply can't afford.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 11:12:11 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 05, 2023, 11:05:30 pmI'm not exactly buying luxury bulbs. I bought a three-pack of 60W equivalent LED bulbs from Costco, and I'm still using two of those today (the other one isn't dead - it's just not in use). I think it was under £10 for all three and that was almost a decade ago when LED bulbs were still kinda pricey.The cheapest bulbs are the £1 to £2 a pop bulbs, and yes, those don't last long, but if someone is genuinely struggling between £2 and £4 for a bulb, they may well not even be able to afford the electricity for that bulb and there are deeper issues at play here.I'm using Ikea smart bulbs now, which cost £7 for a Zigbee compliant GU10, and they sell equivalent non-Zigbee ones for £3.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 11:19:37 pm
content: RE fail rates and reliability:From a Retired lighting electronics/power, designed fluro/CFL/HID/cinema and LED ballasts.For reliability, a system approach considers:Mains power quality/transientsComponent derating, ambient/hotspot temp in ballast or power supplyLED quality, thermal arrangement, hot spot temp.We can apply the Arrhenius rule of chemical reactions doubling activity with every 10 deg C increase.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equationThus a semiconductor junction running at 100 deg C will have 1/2 the life of one at 90 deg CFinally most electronics failure rates can be plotted as a "bathtub" curve over life:High..Infant mortalitylow ...mid lifeincreasing ..end of lifehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curveHope this is of interest,Jon

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 11:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 05, 2023, 11:05:30 pmI think I see were our discussion went off track.That post was not intended to be taken in isolation, and I could have worded it better to avoid that confusion, sorry.When I saidQuoteI was referring to if it didn't exist due to the new regulation that was being discussed, if it was made using a resistor that turned it into a product that would actually last, but had a bit less light output.The light reduction is why I said they might need a 2nd light. But at least they would pay the same cost and get something does the job of lighting the room and doesn't need replacing for many years.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 09:17:42 am
content: QuoteEasily happens here!I apologise for not allowing that it had.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 09:22:30 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 10:18:15 pmYou can argue this all you want but the general public wants the brightest bulb for the lowest cost. If people wanted long life bulbs, manufacturers will produce long life bulbs. And many manufacturers do that in fact and make long-life lamps as well.https://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/consumer/ultra-efficient

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 11:43:45 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 06, 2023, 09:22:30 amI've seen many LED bulbs that claim 50,000 hours / 50 year lifespans.Very few I actually believe the claim due to the case temp on the thermal camera.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 12:13:02 pm
content: Personally, I would rather fit 5 Dubai bulbs than one 'standard' bulb. They would use the same power, give out much more light, and last a LOT longer. Barring that, I'll continue to buy my own LED strips and undervolt them.I can swap out any failed bulbs using spare ones from old strips, they will last forever (for a limited interpretation of 'forever'), and I can choose the exact colour of light I get.I like a lot of light for my tired old eyes, and I can get that using much less power than if I were to buy cheap, or expensive, bulbs from a store.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 03:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2023, 08:39:43 am1. Agreed.2. Agreed.3. Yes, but… Consumers want compact LED lamps that are screw-in replacements for incandescent bulbs. That dictates the mechanical envelope as well as the expected brightness. For example, I have 75W-equivalent LEDs in my ceiling lights in the hallway, because less than that simply isn’t bright enough. It’s a rental apartment so I don’t want to invest lots of money in whole new fixtures that are either natively LED or that can hold two bulbs. So the consequence is that the LED lamps have to be 75W-equivalents that run kinda hot.Also, having also cobbled together some LED lighting myself using COB LED modules, I think you may be underestimating the amount of heat produced by power LEDs. I have a ~@12W COB module (approximately 3”x1”/80x25mm or so) that I run on a finned heatsink that’s about 4x4x1.5l”/100x100x40mm, with an aluminum slab (about 4x3x0.3”/100x70x8mm) attached as well as both heatsink and shade, all connected with thermal grease. It gets hot, fast. And that’s with a completely separate power supply.Another aspect is that the warm white LEDs people want for their homes are a bit less efficient than the cool white ones.For sure, in many LED lamps, it’s the power supplies that fail first, due to them being run very hot. I think there is room for improvement here. (For example, by making more PSU chips that are happy with only ceramic caps, so we don’t have electrolytics anywhere near that heat.) Bu the LEDs themselves fail much faster at higher temperatures, and I don’t think there’s a whole lot that can be done about that. And you can’t legislate physics.If we implemented a ban like you suggest, the ultimate result would be that the maximum wattage of the LED lamps would be cut dramatically, forcing people to use lamps that are not bright enough for their needs; warm white would disappear; and flicker would increase as manufacturers switched even more lamps to simple capacitive droppers. I don’t think this is a viable solution.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 10:10:08 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 05, 2023, 10:07:55 pmEspecially the IKEA bulbs that DavidAlfa mentions are not really an example for "Buy cheap, buy twice".Granted, my sample size is tiny, but my experience with IKEA LED bulbs is excellent, given their price. I have two E14 base bulbs running now for at least 5 years, i don't remember when i bought them. They were like 3 Euro for 2 or something like that. Granted: They are low wattage, and the fixture i use them in is open and well ventilated.BigClive also only had good things to tell about IKEA USB power supplies that are also very cheap for what they are.And IKEA rechargeable batteries also seem to rival Eneloops.I sound like an IKEA shillBut i really only mostly heard good things about them with electronics.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 12:17:24 pm
content: Buying low wattage helps a lot.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 01:00:58 pm
content: If everyone ignores the brightest LEDs and buys the dimmer ones because they'll last longer, doesn't that just lower the bar and then producers will churn out cheaper short-lasting dim lights instead?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 01:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 07, 2023, 01:00:58 pmA lot of the problem is the legacy form factor. It's not well suited for LEDs of the same power as incandesces.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 04:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 06, 2023, 11:43:45 amIf those are Ac led lamps you should know it is BS.Have you ever seen a manufacturer making elektrolytic capacitors with a guaranteed lifespan of 50 years ?If you want to sort the BS from the decent ones, look at the packaging, it should not only state an expected amount of hours but also an amount of on/off cycles, which is exactly where the elektrolytic capacitor comes in.For dc/dc led bulbs 40000 hours if used mlcc capacitors or those solid elektrolytes should be feasible. If you want long lifetime you need a decent led driver. A decent one will already cost you aroud €20 minimum, the professional grade ones will cost multiple times that and are sold forvroadways, tunnels, swimming pools, pro applications where changing the bulb in manhours and equipment cost more than the driver/bulbIf you want to argue about low cost low lifetime garbage, talk to your neighbours and educate them. Also tell them the capitalist way of living has its negative sides where manufacturers would like to make profits and sell something, which is pretty hard if the other side of the world practically gives their low lifespan electronic garbage almost away for free

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 04:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 07, 2023, 01:38:42 pmAgreed, but the difficulty there is the ubiquity of ES and BC variants, in domestic settings. I have found 2D LED replacement lamps to be of pretty good quality and longevity on the whole, but all the new fittings that would have had 2D lamps in them are fully integrated now, often with crappy microwave sensors that introduce yet another failure mode that leads to a whole-fitting replacement.Just for shits and giggles, here's what a chandelier looks like when populated with CF lamps

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 05:16:04 pm
content: It's a pretty shit conversion regardless of the lamps, I don't see why they even dangled the bulbs. CFLs don't make it much worse.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 08:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on August 07, 2023, 01:00:58 pmReally? Is there anything in this thread that is rational or actually thought out? This is one of the biggest BS threads at EEVBlog.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 10:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 07, 2023, 08:38:09 pmHuh...? I agree with PlainName here, that sounds exactly like what a company would do. If they were going reduce the brightness, they'd just reduce the number of discrete LEDs to save on cost, and still run each element at a power level that will target a certain lifespan.This is why I have moved towards separate LED arrays and drivers. Commercial grade lighting is a good way to get off the shelf components as you can get passive LED fixtures then choose a driver which runs the LEDs conservatively. It also opens the possibility for dimming, external control and automation etc, but is still simple enough for a sparky to do a regular light switch install.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 11:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 06, 2023, 03:08:32 pmFlicker is usually counter productive to efficiency due to the massively non-linear characteristics of LEDs, buying on (fixture/instrument) lumens per watt is a pretty good guide.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 05:00:36 am
content: Wouldn't the easy way be to just buy dimmable LEDs which are much brighter than you need and just don't use them at full power?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 05:18:28 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 08, 2023, 05:00:36 am1) There's no such thing as dimmable LEDs, just like CFLs. The controllers chop the AC waveform which doesn't work very well with these devices, even when they claim to be compatible, even when you combine specific model numbers that are claimed to be compatible.2) LED brightness is controlled by current, not voltage. There's simply no practical way to make this work well, that doesn't burn excess power.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 05:21:50 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 08, 2023, 05:18:28 amActually it's a long established method to control LED "brightness"; effectively a PWM controller, and LEDs are always rated by both continuous and pulsed current.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 05:42:37 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on August 08, 2023, 05:21:50 amHow do you manage that from the wall control?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 06:53:36 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 08, 2023, 05:18:28 amYou can always buck boost. Also you can just say the lamp only works with trailing edge dimmers with adjustment pot and turn off at 90 degrees and let the customer figure it out. Full voltage always available after the rectifier, problem solved.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 07:23:15 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 08, 2023, 05:18:28 amWhat? The majority of dimmable LED bulbs just follow the chopped mains voltage with a constant current LED driver. So the LED gets the chopped AC input, full-wave rectified to DC. This means they're a lot more sensitive to variations in mains voltage, unlike a filament bulb there's no inertia to speak of, so I haven't the greatest opinion of them. But they are dimmable, and they don't burn excess power when dim.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 08:05:52 am
content: Quote from: Marco on August 08, 2023, 06:53:36 amYou really don't know anything about these devices, do you?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 11:13:27 am
content: They just convert conduction angle to PWM, it works fine. The only problem with LED dimming is that you don't have full voltage to work with after the rectifier with less than 90 degree conduction angle, which is a pain for the switching regulator. With extreme cost cutting some of the lower end manufacturers cut corners. Even then, with a modern trailing edge dimmer you can adjust minimum conduction angle, so if the bulb starts flickering just don't let it dim that far back.If it absolutely has to work with any old dimmer in the wall and you absolutely want the same dimming range with the same range of the knob and otherwise say dimming doesn't work, then dimming doesn't work.PS. The power supply for a trailing edge dimmer itself isn't entirely trivial either with two wires, needs to bootstrap somehow, meh it works well enough.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 05:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 08, 2023, 11:13:27 amExcept that they don't "works fine".QuoteSo you do know that it doesn't "works fine"!I bought LED ceiling fixtures (with the LEDs inside) and the dimmer specified on the box. They have issues working together. It was hard, but I finally was able to reach the manufactures. Each one told me to return them. They had no solution to the problem. They didn't care that they didn't work. Their solution was simply to return the junk where I bought them.That's not "works fine".

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 06:43:49 pm
content: Indeed ac dimming is and has always been a PITA for led lighting.The good dimming drivers use DALI , 0-10V or nowadays wireless communication as Zigbee and BT as dimming input.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 06:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 08, 2023, 05:57:44 pmWorks on my machine (or rather kitchen ceiling lights).QuoteCaveat emptor. We have a couple online shops selling cheap self branded cheap LED bulbs together with self branded dimmers. I bought GU10s from one of those, a one stop shop is useful, with EU online purchasing laws they are incentivized to make it work. I won't get the best lumen per watt or longevity most likely, but it just werks. GU10 sucks for longevity, but retrofits are a compromise.I wouldn't be surprised if Apple jumps in and just start selling their own bulbs and dimmers ... and it will just werk as well (at 10 times the cost).

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 07:06:33 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 08, 2023, 06:43:49 pmTrailing edge dimmers were such a wasted opportunity. They should have made it an industry standard "for trailing edge, 90 degrees conduction angle is minimum brightness". Expensive dimmable lamps could have been made compatible with all dimmers, cheap ones would have been trailing edge only and still always have full mains voltage behind the rectifier.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 07:12:23 pm
content: Quotelack of thermal inertia so instead of a gentle fade out ,the dam things snap off at some point

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 09:15:02 pm
content: I have no problem dimming my LED lights (to a point, any LED light has a minimum working voltage, like a diode funnilly enough).I just use a current limiting power supply and limit the current to them, I can easily get their power usage down to 15% of the rated value with no discernable flicker (much less than that if you don't mind flickery lights)Of course, this is only a solution for people who know the right end of a soldering iron to use. It seems that is not everyone here...

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 09:47:48 pm
content: The problem is ripping up the walls and ceiling, not the soldering.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 11:04:33 pm
content: Apart from the LED lights dimmable using a dimmer, there are also ones dimmable by remote controls and ones dimmable by IoT. The IoT ones have their own problems, of course, but many of them can be solved with Tasmota.https://templates.blakadder.com/light.html

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 05:10:51 am
content: Earlier I reported being gifted 2 faulty fixtures and that their drivers could be configured for output current so I grabbed the resistor config table from the datasheet, as attached.Recently we needed to replace a 30+ yr old 60" single fluorescent as its end caps would no longer make reliable contact with the tube pins.Its replacement was a very similar fixure but configurable LED with 2 brightness settings and 3 white settings with a 3 position sliding switch.After some weeks mucking with it to findgood for ussettings the medium white, 4000k IIRC and 30 instead of 50W were selected.One asks oneself why all these adjustable setting were added to a relatively cheap fitting......so it could be configured for an extended lifetime ? Of that we will see.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 05:57:35 am
content: running at a reduced voltage can help, 10 or 11 volts on a lighting strip not 12.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 06:08:37 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on August 12, 2023, 05:57:35 amYep, it helpsa lot. Due to the temp vs longevity curve for most components.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 06:35:35 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on August 12, 2023, 05:57:35 amYou mean a lighting strip that uses fixed resistors to limit the current, with no electronics to control the current?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:02:57 am
content: I'm generally against regulation, but I do support legislation to for a minimum warranty of five years on LED lamps, to cut down on waste. This is easy to do, but most people don't keep receipts and wouldn't bother with warranty claims.Another option is to have a deposit system, when the customer can return their dead lamp to where they purchased it from, in exchange for a small sum of money. It would make the lamps more expensive, but it will give manufactures more of an incentive to make them last longer. This would probably be more effective, than the first option, but come at greater cost.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:07:45 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 12, 2023, 05:10:51 amPerhaps so that the user can "findgood for ussettings" such as "the medium white, 4000k IIRC and 30 instead of 50W"?I'd call that a plus, but whatever rocks your boat

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:17:19 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 12, 2023, 10:02:57 amLOL!!! Both of these ideas are totally impractical. The warranty is of no use at all, because very few hang onto receipts which will be required for warranty returns. The deposit has no advantage at all. It has no impact on the bulb maker. It's just a hassle for the retailer.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:33:48 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 12, 2023, 10:17:19 amDepends, some places only require receipts for cash refunds. But if it's a faulty product and you just want to swap it for a good one it's fine without a receipt.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:57:07 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 12, 2023, 10:02:57 amI'd like to see it extended to most consumer goods too, obvious exceptions for consumables and physical damage but TV's, appliances, phones etc should be warrantied for 5 years minimum.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 11:08:49 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2023, 10:57:07 amYou can often make a valid legal argument that if the manufacturer or retailer is offering an extended warranty option for extra cost. Then it's reasonable to expect that type of product should last that long.So if your local consumer laws state that a product must last for a reasonable length of time then by them offering an option of an extended warranty they have proved what "a reasonable length of time" is and so everyone gets that length warranty for that device under the law.Of course you have to argue it and the reseller might force you to go to small claims court to win.But that is usually pretty cheap, being small claims court. Depending on where you live.More of a time cost than a money cost.This is why extended warranty are often a scam.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 11:24:04 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 12, 2023, 10:17:19 amAre you trolling now? If you bothered to read my post, you'll find I already said it's not perfect, because people don't hang on to receipts, but that doesn't make it worthless.And large retailers have considerable leverage on suppliers and therefore manufacturers.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 11:53:33 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 12, 2023, 11:24:04 amThere won't be pressure on the retailers, because people won't remember where they bought a lightbulb two years ago, etc., etc., etc.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 11:54:23 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 12, 2023, 10:33:48 amSo buy stuff at Walmart prices and return them to Home Depot? Sounds good to me!

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 12:01:10 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 12, 2023, 11:54:23 amWhy does it sound good to you, it doesn't gain you anything to do that. In both cases all you get is the same replacement item.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 01:55:54 pm
content: Quotesale of goods act already gives you up to 6 years,but good luck trying to make a claim

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 02:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 12, 2023, 01:55:54 pmSale of Goods Act has been repealed for about 8 years now. You just have the Consumer Rights Act which has the same statutory limit but in all cases beyond 6 months you must demonstrate that the goods are defective from origin, it is not a warranty.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 04:05:27 pm
content: Not so long ago I changed an incandescent bulb to LED.So the spot missed the CFL period.Other place has >15 years old dimmed halogens, small stick it in type of some sort.Once one stopped operating but tapping the lamp glass brought it back to life.Seems that we are in the middle of change again.Now household AC lighting system must go.No idea how it is with new buildings.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 06:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 12, 2023, 11:08:49 amThe other way of looking at this is that the manufacturer is stating that the warranty is only good for the no-extended period (otherwise it would be the extended period free of charge). The extended warranty is in fact insurance, and it's expected that there will be failures during the extended warranty period (hence the charge). So the 'reasonable length of time' would indeed be the normal warranty period.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 07:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 12, 2023, 10:17:19 amIn fact this isalreadycovered under WEEE regulations. There's a small levy on the price in order to fund legacy disposal, and new products have to include recycling as part of their design. Retailers arelegally obligedto take old electronic items for recycling. This includes lamps.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 07:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on August 12, 2023, 07:27:30 pmYou seem to be confused. Disposing of bulbs is not a deposit return. Read what has been discussed.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 07:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 12, 2023, 07:51:19 pmI'm not confused, but you are a boring troll. The deposit aspect is mostly irrelevant, save to try and get those who don't care about waste to return the lamp themselves. Mostly they are siphoned out of the household waste recycling stream.Still, the rate is lower than it could be, so maybe a deposit system is something that could be looked at; there was such a system on glass soft drink bottles in this country some years back and it worked well, and is being resurrected in some places.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:15:54 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on August 12, 2023, 07:56:43 pmI can't be a troll. We all know how to handle trolls. NEVER REPLY TO THEM! Since you seem obsessed with replying, I think we know who the troll is.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 09:40:58 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on August 12, 2023, 07:56:43 pmHe's doing a good impression of a troll, so I won't respond to him.I suppose it's not the same as a deposit for bottles, which will be reused, because the lamp won't be, but hopefully much of it will be recycled. The advantage it has over WEEE is it provides an incentive for people to return their dead lamps, as well as for the manufacturers to make them last longer.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 09:47:09 am
content: What on earth is happening in this thread with all the differentcolours.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 10:00:13 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 13, 2023, 09:47:09 amjust wait till they get to usingsize& fonts style.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 12:04:29 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 13, 2023, 09:47:09 amTrolls like shinny colorfully things I guess.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 10:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 13, 2023, 09:47:09 amNo idea, but it makes it very easy to not read those posts, or rather it makes them very hard to read.Tomato, potato.

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 10:58:41 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 12, 2023, 10:15:54 pmSorry to say, but there's a better way: Ignore list. Now, if only the ignore list would cut it out completely...

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2023, 08:45:15 am
content: If any mods are around, feel free to lock the thread.