Any real NA PCB manufacturers left? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:17:32 pm
content: One US company that I used for years, when I placed the order around Chinese NY told me that the shipment will be delayed due to NY. WTF? When I told them that I thought they were making the boards in USA, they told me that they could, but it would be more expensive. Hm... They already quoted me 300 USD price for 10 boards, likely 10x the price of the same boards in China.I found another one, but they too ship my order from China.And of course the all quote 5 days lead time, which inevitably turns into 8. Bastards...There is no incentive to order boards locally anymore...

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:30:12 pm
content: There are plenty of "real NA PCB manufacturers" left. Even if they offer you a Chinese manufacturing option, they're still an American manufacturer if they have an American factory.As for whether there are any cheap NA manufacturers left... well, none as cheap as the Chinese manufacturers. :-(- Bob

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:48:13 pm
content: But they give me Chinese option for the same price than what I used to pay for US PCBs. Obviously they were never cheap. But now it seems they just charge NA price and outsource to China.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 02:55:49 pm
content: Ask them why their Chinese manufacturing costs so much. They might not give you a straight answer, but it's worth a shot. And please let us know what they say.- Bob

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 03:01:51 pm
content: Is Accutrace entirely US based? Their delivery seems unbelievably quick for overseas, yet they have competitive pricing, so I'm unsure...There are probably hundreds of NA manufacturers, but if you are only hunting for prototypes and short runs at low cost, you're more or less SOL.Tim

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 04:31:56 pm
content: cost is not even an issue, if I can get a fast turn.Cost becomes an issue when I find out my order is sent to China. Something I could've done on my own if I don't require fast turn. And for a fraction of what I pay them.Yes, this is primarily for prototypes.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 04:39:15 pm
content: If you're looking for manufacturers who will get the boards to your door fast, you can find them viaPCBShopper.com(disclosure: I run the site). It's a price comparison site for PCB manufacturing and one of the options you can specify is the number of business days the boards arrive in (i.e. lead time plus shipping time). PCBShopper knows about shipping options and rush manufacturing options. Its comparison calculator includes Asian, North American, and European manufacturers.- Bob AlexanderPCBShopper.com

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 05:46:24 pm
content: The one near me that used to make boards shut down their PCB manufacturing several years ago and outsource that to China now. There's very little reason to even go with a US company anymore when I can get the same product direct from China at a much lower price. It's unfortunate but that's reality.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 05:50:05 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 28, 2018, 05:46:24 pmThat's my conclusion as well.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 11:26:05 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 28, 2018, 05:46:24 pmMr Trump might see the end of that. Apparently more import duties for you guys are on the way as he tries to protect more jobs in the USA.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 04:42:11 am
content: Something tells me whatever he does will be poorly thought out and disastrous. We probably should have had import duties in place long ago, prior to all the manufacturing going overseas. It took place over a period of decades, you can't turn that back overnight without serious consequences.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 12:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 29, 2018, 04:42:11 amWe need to put our own house in order before we blame other people for our problems. We've had a business climate in this country for decades that has hurt our competitiveness relative to other countries. I'm thinking of the way we've been taxing foreign profits, our government's uncontrolled deficit spending, and some of our labor laws.Trump gets a lot of mileage by finding scapegoats for our problems. But in many cases, we're our own worst enemy.- Bob

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 12:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on March 28, 2018, 02:17:32 pmI have a local place that manufactures in-house, but their leadtimes stretch around NY as they get more work from all the people that would normally use China

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 12:44:27 pm
content: There are plenty of US and Canadian (and maybe even Mexican?) manufacturers of PC boards. There are several right here in my neighborhood Portland, Oregon area. There are a few here in Washington County (the "Silicon Forest"), there are some out in the outer suburbs, and there is one (or more?) of the super-fast, overnight (but premium-cost) fabs, i.e.www.sunstone.com.And consolidatorhttps://oshpark.com/is here in Portland, but sends the orders out to a select number of US fabricators. I believe one of their primary providers is in the US midwest somewhere.They likely all see an increase in business volume (and stretching of lead-time) around Chinese New Year for exactly the reason you are complaining about. I think Mike hit the nail directly on the head.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 03:45:18 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on March 28, 2018, 04:39:15 pmHad no idea such a site existed.. i'll have to keep that in mind

author: reboots
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 08:45:29 pm
content: I've had good luck a few times with Sierra Circuits in Sunnyvale CA, when I needed a very fast turnaround and cost was no object.https://www.protoexpress.com/Not cheap: several hundred USD for 3-6 mid-size boards, 72hr turnaround. But the quality was the best I've ever seen. Layer registration, silkscreen quality etc. were visually flawless.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 09:01:39 pm
content: I've used these guys plenty of times and always with good resultshttp://www.4pcb.com/advanced-circuits-history/http://www.4pcb.com/pcb-prototype-2-4-layer-boards-specials.html99 bucks for 3 2 layer boards up to 60 sqin, green and masked

author: reboots
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 05:58:26 pm
content: Quote from: Elasia on March 29, 2018, 09:01:39 pmI used the Advanced Circuits FreeDFM service once. I was never a customer. They spammed the email I gave them at least monthly, for years. They sent email advertising how they would not be disrupted by Chinese New Year, with an insinuating tone that seemed to me desperate, pathetic, and borderline racist. (And I've been burned by CNY myself.) If they do good work, it's a shame their marketing deterred me from using them.

author: brettweist
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 02:52:50 am
content: I've used this company and had great results. They are somewhat larger Southern California company, and they got the job done.www.murrietta.com

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:47:06 am
content: Quote from: ar__systems on March 28, 2018, 02:17:32 pmIf Canada counts there is always Alberta Circuits for quick turnshttps://www.apcircuits.com/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 05:01:50 am
content: I don't get how the Chinese suppliers are THAT much cheaper. I mean ok, I can understand 5, maybe 10 times the cost for US/Canadian production but hundreds of times the cost?

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 05:29:01 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 10, 2018, 05:01:50 amThere is still a quality differential IMO. I use local makers for all high end boards using non standard laminates. Generally the consistency is excellent. Several years back I was using a Chinese vendor to proto low noise amplifiers. Of the batch there was considerable variation in performance simply due to variations in etching - boards looked great but under a microscope they were under-etched in many cases. We were never able to get consistency in these released products - we couldn't afford US prices in volume.On a visit to that mid-sized contract maker in Shenzhen, I went through the board fab which was located in the basement level. Workers were actually standing in spilled chemical - it was just such a fast paced operation, there was no time to clean up. Also very little in the way of protective equipment. And it was later obvious they were under price pressures, because they were constantly asking us to allow them to do more of the product design work with higher margins.American PCB's are expensive but there is actually quite a bit to producing a consistent high quality product including not least of which is costs associated with handling and disposing of chemicals. I have used Alberta circuits over many years and have never had a problem like that. I think with some of these RF products I actually saved money with local suppliers through time gained (or not lost chasing daemons). On one specialty product for example I actually sent the Chinese vendor a high quality substrate panel worth a couple of grand that was a sunk cost as they destroyed the panel in milling.Now having said all that if I am doing a garden variety digital design or even a low frequency analog design some of this really doesn't matter much and I have used Chinese vendors for both proto and product.

author: noras
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 02:24:46 am
content: Free trade is the way out, otherwise the wool is on the sheep

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 03:36:20 am
content: Quote from: noras on April 11, 2018, 02:24:46 amYou might as well leave it there - not many family farms make anything from wool. As a kid I can remember farmers destroying crops and stockpiling wool bales as it wasn't worth the fuel to transport/harvest it. Tariffs correct some of that. I'm pretty comfortable with all consumer electronics prices doubling or more - real prices need to come back into the system.Free trade should have died years ago because it was a crap deal. Don't take my word for it - drive around regional Australia or the US and look at the decay. There are about 2.1 million farms in the US - more than 1.5million of which make less than 50K a year. People just live on them and get a job in town. Only about 200-300K farms produce at real profit much of which is dominated by corporate farms.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 12:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on April 11, 2018, 03:36:20 amThere are countless examples of countries today and throughout history that strictly limit imports are poverty-striken as a result. It even happened here in the Great Depression.Let's say I'm a farmer and you're a blacksmith. Does it make sense for me to try blacksmithing and you to try farming in an effort for each of us to be self-sufficient? Of course not: it's far better for you to what you do best and me to do what I do best, and then we trade.The argument scales up. Imagine the disaster if every city tried to be self-sufficient and import nothing. Or if each of the 50 states tried to be self-sufficient. And yes, it scales up to nations, too. Trade allows goods to be produced in the most efficient location.Refusing to make something in the most efficient place and requiring it be made in a less-efficient place is crazy. It's a waste of human resources and natural resources. We have 7 billion people on this planet. They all want food and a comfortable life. The last thing we should be doing is wasting resources.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 06:37:22 pm
content: The sheer fact that costs will rise, is proof that trade restrictions are economically undesirable.Same as any political issue: follow the money. Who stands to benefit from such an action? Clearly not China, fine, stick it to them I guess. Who else? "Big Electronic" would be the obvious answer, but that seems tenuous. I don't know nearly enough about what's going on to speculate, but hopefully this gives one some idea what sort of thing might.Tim