32-bit ADC playground for precision measurement tasks. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 05:02:23 pm
content: There are plenty new toys for a modern voltnut available now, such as Delta-Sigma TI ADS1262/1263's, ADI AD7177 and now fast SAR with DF - Linear 2500-32. It might be interesting to play with these converters, instead of always relying on bulky 3458A...Long time we didn't play "guess the thing" game, eh? I got some parts today for new old idea, so here are some hint photos...Some extra close-ups.Also open for suggestionsNeed to make HSMC to 0.1" header adapter though, as my DE1-SoC does not have HSMC.

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 05:38:28 pm
content: Seems the LTC2500-32 ist the new brother of the LTC2508-32 with a few better specs it seems. Will be interesting to see it compared to your 3458A.Also: LTZ1000 instead of the (assumed) LTC6655.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 06:19:49 pm
content: Interesting idea!Which reference is actually better for this kind of thing - LTC6655 or LTZ1000?

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 07:11:01 pm
content: I look forward to reading this. The LT offering looks especially interesting.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 07:44:14 pm
content: I wonder how it would compare to rolling your own integrating ADC with a CPLD and a few precision op-amps, as in most high-resolution DMMs (except the ones who do the same with an ASIC). Obviously it will be much simpler.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 07:54:18 pm
content: The LTC6655 could directly fit to the ADC, while the LTZ1000 would need a kind of divider (e.g. divide by two, may include filter) and buffer. So while the LTZ1000 can be more stable (lower drift) it might get difficult to reach the same level after the divider and buffer.Using something like 4 of the LTC6655 might bring the noise down to a level lower that the LTZ1000. This might still work without an extra buffer, though for more filtering a buffer might be needed here too.So it kind of depends on the application, which reference would be better. The ltc6655 is definitely easier even if several in parallel are used - but long time drift might be a problem.The noise level and INL reached by this ADC is quite impressive. Noise wise it could be better than many ADCs used in high end DMMs. Something like 0.1 ppm RMS noise at 60 SPS is impressive. However the input stage might add some extra noise.The INL of the integrating ADCs might be better, if well build with a lot of experience. It is a little difficult to compare due to the different range (e.g. +- 2,5 V vs something like +-12 V). Ready made DMMs might also use some software corrections, not just the raw ADC readings.

author: branadic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 08:23:49 pm
content: ±0.5ppm INL (Typ) and ±2ppm INL (Min/Max) is not that impressive. Even the good old LTC2400 delivers 4ppm INL and 0.3ppm RMS noise but with a predictable and therefor adjustable error. Thus the error can be adjusted to <1ppm. LTC2500-32 seem to have not that easy adjustable INL error.But maybe TiN can prove us that I'm wrong.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 08:41:56 pm
content: From specs, it looks to me, it is using the same core as the LTC2376 family. I did play with those, damn impressive. For sure you need a 3458A to fully appreciate them. When you see your measured value and the 3458A track each other withing PPMs for days.Good times. I should design analog front ends again, I miss it

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 08:56:00 pm
content: Quote from: branadic on June 19, 2017, 08:23:49 pmHello,Look at the patends cited in the datasheet.They have done much to improve DNL by adding artificial noise. (dithering).(That explains the "noise floor" on the INL-diagram).So I think there is not much to improve.If you have luck you can halve the resulting INL.with best regardsAndreas

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 01:21:03 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on June 19, 2017, 07:54:18 pmCan we do both? we take 4x LTC6655 as the main reference. We also have an LTZ1000 on board, and we read its output when the system starts (after warming up of course) to take care of any long term drift? We could even have multiple LTZ1000 on board and average readings of all of them using the ADC... and we could arrange that power to the LTZ's is never cut, for long term stability.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 10:44:36 am
content: Using a second reference for doing long time stability tests is possibly and may be a good idea in some applications. This is especially true if there are additional amplification stages that are also included in the test / adjustment. Though I would not use a parallel connection of several references for this. If more than one ref is needed one would use separate references, maybe even different ones.The Datron 1281 uses two LTZ1000 and one LM399 (or maybe LM199): using the average of both LTZ1000 as the working reference but have additional paths to individually measure them separately.The slight difficulty with this ADC and the LTZ1000 (and other 7 V references) is that one would likely need to divide down to something like 1/3 or 1/2. This divider would also need to be very stable, like a capacitive or maybe a precision transformer circuit.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 10:56:27 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on June 20, 2017, 10:44:36 amIn this situation you already have an ADC which is a very accurate ratio measurement device. It shouldn't be difficult to auto calibrate out (and compensate for with a cheap DAC) any drift in the main precision divider by just measuring its output compared with the reference output, using a couple of buffers and another divider with a good short term stability and a low enough noise.CheersAlex

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 11:26:32 am
content: You pretty much only need to place the following before the ADC:a buffer (with the capacitive load capability, high bandwidth, 5V)dividermultiplexerNx RC filtering low speedNx a buffer (low speed, high accuracy, high voltage +/-15V-ish)Now, just be careful with the switching, let enough time for the RC and the opamps to settle. It is not trivial, because you need the settling time to 0.5 ENOB. I've used actually a much more complicated AFE to increase the throughput of the system, but that goes into the dark magic category.With a switched front end, and a very accurate reference voltage it is actually possible to get rid of the 0.1Hz-10Hz noise, (though LTC6655 does not have too much) and the drift of the reference (the one which is driving the ADC).

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 11:53:43 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 20, 2017, 11:26:32 amSo it might be enough with a single LTC6655 - as long as we have at least one "serious" reference in the system? Which we read immediately before the measurement (and maybe immediately after, as well - and take an average)? That sounds a little Keithley-alike, which is probably not a bad thing!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 12:08:13 pm
content: That is probably enough for a simple gain adjustment. In a real situation, just like a DMM you want to do also a zero measurement. And the inverted reference, if you measure bipolar signals. Then, you can compensate for common mode voltages, if the system does not handle it well, and your measured values are not zero centered (most likely not). There are a number of parameters which can be compensated, but its up to the engineer to decide which ones are significant and which are not. 100dB CMMR, which is a lot, on an opamp could be enough for a 16 bit system, but not for the ppm level.Keithley is doing this, because practically we have very accurate 100+ KSPS ADCs, but the passive parts are just not accurate enough. Its an economic system. Maybe there are resistor dividers in heated virgin oil baths, weighting 2kg, that can divide a voltage accurately, but its not economic to use them.

author: MisterDiodes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 02:32:16 pm
content: Oh boy...a LTC250x != 3458a....Those 32-bit ADC's are -NOT-, repeat NOT intended for absolute measure - they are not even close to 32 bits for that application. These chips are intended for ratio-metric inputs only, i.e. resistance bridge weigh scale, where the same Vref for the ADC is also providing the excitation voltage for the bridge. For best results at DC absolute use LTZ-based Vrefs and better yet multiple LTZ systems. 6655's are too noisy even in multiples unless your measurement period is very short and you don't need repeat-ability over longer time spans.Talk to LTC and they are the first to admit that, and reallythey don't offer any solutionfor a 32-bit (or even 24 bit, really) direct Vref for DC measures. This part could really use multiple LTZ's Vref for lower noise. OR build multiple complete VRefs and ADC's for cleaner data. Quiet data at > 22 bits is not cheap and will require averaging across multiple independent systems.32 bits is a flippin' joke when you actually run these, more like 20~23 bits or so even on LTZ. 3458a is down into the 28 bit range. Not even in the same league. Try it!Another heads up: Those great datasheet noise specs are at zero volts input - i.e. inputs shorted. You won't get that on a non-zero level signal. Good luck averaging out the crap also on a single chip.These will never be a replacement for a 3458a, and frankly - during our tests they aren't that great compared to a regular '2400 at DC. As others have pointed out, the '2400 series has a very predictable and repeatable correction curve. You can't do that with the newer fast 32 bits ADC's. What you DO get is some speed of measurement for AC sigs of course. And it's nice that some of the filter math is done for you on chip, but nothing you can't do in your own code.But for fastest speed capabilities these need to be running under FPGA control because it's tough for a lot of CPU's to keep up with a 100MHz max serial datastream, head's up.These have not proven to have much bang for the buck compared to '2400 / 2408 if you're talking about measuring DC absolute values. For the cost of one '250x you could have multiple '240x running with excellent quiet data output at 22~23 bits.Save the 2500 series chips for your ratio-metric application (weigh scales, pressure sensors, etc) is my (and LTC's) suggestion, use the 2400's for DC measures.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 03:11:30 pm
content: The 3458A produces that 28 bit sample every 20 seconds. This produces that ~20 bit noise free bits every 10 us (if it is anything like the 2376, that I've thoroughly tested). For sure, it is not going to be exacly the same. But this is where it gets interesting: The 3458A is preatty much only limited by the LTZ1000 and the sampling speed. With this, you can build a system, which is limited by the LTZ1000 and its sampling speed will be multiples of the 3458A.Personally, I think the 32 bit is a bit overkill. I had the 18 bit (and the 20 bit part after it was released) and they behaved very well in the system. There is 0.5ppm INL, that is 21bit. The change seems to be the built in digital filters, for the full utilization of the 23xx series, you had to read out every sample, and do the calculations yourself.And yes, they are an upgrade to the LTC2400. That has 4ppm INL.Of course both of them is still far from the 3458A linearity.

author: zhtoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 03:36:05 pm
content: Quote from: MisterDiodes on June 20, 2017, 02:32:16 pmso what would be a 3458a like dc-measurement solution for a poor man? looks like some kind of automated KVD? (if any exists?)or a cutkowsky-like divider?regards.

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 04:23:34 pm
content: There is no low-cost-solution for substituting a 3458A, no matter how much Manganin-Wire or Discrete Transistors you throw at the problem.Also: how would you measure your resistors which must be super precise/ultra low TC for Cutkowsky-Dividers/KVDs?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 05:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: MisterDiodes on June 20, 2017, 02:32:16 pmEven making a good 6 1/2 digit measurement is actually a reasonably challenging endeavour - don't breathe too hard...But there is no harm in trying to make a "poor man's 3458a", it would certainly be very educational even if it "fails" by only working to 6.5 or 7.5 digits!

author: zhtoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 05:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: Echo88 on June 20, 2017, 04:23:34 pmjim williams definitely threw transistors at the problem, especially the 2N2369 oneregards.

author: MisterDiodes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 05:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 20, 2017, 03:11:30 pmOnce you actually use a 250x part, you're not really going to see that, honestly. Maybe 18 or 19 bits. Probably like 2376. But your Vref is modulating your input data, and at low ppm's that becomes more and more critical. As your signal increases dynamic range then the Vref noise becomeseven more critical. Then if you're running these 250x fast with an FPGA good luck keeping the that digital noise out of the faster measure (if you're chasing PPMs)...Uggh. It can be done, but you have to be careful.Speaking of noise: Also notice that the AC specs (SNR, THD) of the '250x parts are pretty lackluster. That's more like a 16 or 18 bitter.An '2400 / 2408 has 4ppm INL but it is normally corrected out in software, and has been since the 80's. Linear even gives you the code for it, it's not like you have to re-invent the wheel. You should get to ppm absolute or sub PPM relative measures on every part in a production run. Very repeatable and stable correction curve is very similar even across parts - and is stable over time (decades). We just use a 10 point test cal correction during manufacture and it's quick and easy. You can get to ppm (or 20 bits) relatively easily, and if you keep your system very very quiet you can get into the 21~22 bit range. No good way to correct a '2500 / '2508 long term, they seem to bounce around every 1kHrs or so. We've been looking at them for the past year or so and feeding suggestions back to LT, but they seem a bit confused these days. This seems to be a part that marketing wanted to have a datasheet for to compete with AD, but now they are the same company. The will probably drop either the LT or the AD 32-bit part at some point, no need for two parts competeing against each other.Again: These '2500 seriresare not meant to be a 32 bit, sub-PPM absolute measure device, and LinearT is the first to tell you that. Use these when you need to measure a high-resolution (not necessarily with high absolute accuracy) ratiometric sensor. Use a '2400 / '2404 / '2408 with a 6655 or LTZ's for accurate DC measuring at a MUCH better profit margin.Zhtoor: Metrology and "poor man's" anything are generally mutually exclusive. You really need to understand that in the ppm world you get exactly what you pay for - and as you get below 10ppm the cost goes up more than exponentially every ppm below that. By the time you're taking accurate measures under 8~5ppm absolute requires more than a single 3458a... And by the time you're at real, calibrated 2ppm (the realistic limit if you're not a jjarray-refered cal lab) you've got a several 3458a's & 732bs or equivalent, with some thousands of $$$ per year in cal services alone. IF you're doing it right. And at that point you're talking a solid, noise free 19 bits measure no matter how you slice it. To get to a real, calibrated 20 bit accurate absolute voltage measure (1 ppm accuracy) takes an extreme level of measurement ability, and really talking about a JJ-Array reference at that point - or a bank of 732b' refe'd to a JJ-array at regular intervals.The other thing to understand is that very few applications require ppm-level anything unless it's VoltNuts entertainment or usually trying to calibrate / test something else. That means a very small market with no real profit center, and that means very expensive parts. We use ppm-level test jigs on a laser diode semiconductor process line where each device in production sells for over $500 - but I can't think of a single instance where I'd need that in daily life at home.

author: MisterDiodes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 05:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 20, 2017, 05:14:20 pmYup. You can certainly make something -close- to a 6 digit meter with off the shelf parts - but it'll be at one (or very limited) input voltage range, probably won't work for AC, and compared to a real piece of equipment it'll still basically be a piece of crap (sorry). A 3456a / 3458a takes man-centuries of engineering time to develop, and you're never going to replace that with a home brew PC board and a bag of parts from DigiKey.Educational value for making you own? Priceless. You will find out exactly how hard it is to replicate even a 6 digit meter. And then you'll realize what a good value there is in real quality, well designed equipment.For an actual piece of equipment you'd use in the lab: A older piece of equipment that is calibrated, working, documented and well-aged is even more priceless and useful.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 06:42:08 pm
content: Quote from: branadic on June 19, 2017, 08:23:49 pmWhat's more revealing is if you convert those figures into counts (~4300 and ~17000 respectively) and think about what this really means in the context of a "32-bit" ADC. (Hint: log2(4300) = 12 and log2(17000) = 14).

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 08:57:12 pm
content: Quote from: MisterDiodes on June 20, 2017, 02:32:16 pmIf you need an extra digit on your DMM... is it realistic to try to build a very high quality x10 amplifier to put in front of a good 5 or 6 digit meter?

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 09:34:25 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 20, 2017, 06:42:08 pm4294967296?Huge resolution but poor accuracy?

author: MK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 09:55:18 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 20, 2017, 08:57:12 pmThen you need an accurate source to generate a matching voltage to greater than 5 or 6 digit stability to get an extra digit on a voltage measurement...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 02:37:46 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on June 20, 2017, 10:44:36 amI was thinking of a switched capacitor voltage divider. Didn't Keithley use them for linearity calibration of their ADCs?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 09:20:28 am
content: Quote from: MisterDiodes on June 20, 2017, 05:24:00 pmIf you check the histograms on page 8 of the datasheet, at DF = 64 we have 1ppm noise (AKA about 20 bit) DF=64 is 16 KSPS. VREF noise is indeed critical. But. Anything below 10 Hz can be compensated by the secondary reference (you just throw away some of the throughput), and anything above 10Hz can be filtered simply by RC filtering and then buffering the reference.Well of course nobody is talking about sub PPM measurements. Anything below 0.5 ppm is lunacy, since even the 3458A has 0.5ppm/24h drift on its best range. I dont know about you, but it would be a little ridiculous for me, to just casually throw a Fluke 732A on a schematic next to some resistors and ADCs.With off the shelf parts, getting 20 bit noise free, it is relatively easy. I can create an AFE, which performs better than a 6.5 digit meter on a single range. If the range is current (100mA+), than the task is even easier. Calibrating it, in house is also cheap to some 20-30 ppm, although, I would never do 10 point calibration. The bottom line is: Today's SAR ADCs are better than yesterday's delta-sigma.I have a hunch, that TiN will try to push these ADC a little harder than that. I never had that specification. Although once i spent days proving that 0.01 ppm system is not possible. Turns out later, a manager did not know, that ppm does not mean "parts per mille" (0.1%) but "parts per million". That was fun. I glanced at the specs, said outright "That is not possible". But you know, when you are manager, you dont need to listen to engineers anymore.Quote from: Cerebus on June 20, 2017, 06:42:08 pmI dont know, where those numbers are coming from, but they are magnitudes off. 4ppm is 250.000 and it is about1618 bit.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 11:39:27 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 21, 2017, 09:20:28 amWith 16 times oversampling?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 02:36:39 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on June 20, 2017, 10:44:36 amIt only has to be stable in between auto-calibration cycles ... which shouldn't be a very long time.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 02:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 21, 2017, 09:20:28 am?Full_Count * 4 ppm = (232- 1) * 4 / 1000000 = 17179.869... counts(250000/(232- 1)) * 1000000 = 58.2076... ppmlog2(250000) = 17.93... bitsEither I've lost it entirely, or you need a new calculator.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:01:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 21, 2017, 02:51:26 pmFirst, 250.000 is indeed 18 bit. DOH!And I realized, you were calculating the number of bits "lost".Quote from: Marco on June 21, 2017, 02:36:39 pmExactly, if you do the calibration more often than 10 hz, you calibrate out most of the 0.1-10hz noise.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:26:00 pm
content: I overlaid some bit depths on a chart of theoretical measurement limits (from a Keithley document) to get a sense of how crazy it is to try to measure DC with 32 bits of resolution. (Referenced to 1V)With a sufficiently low source impedance, it doesn't seem completely insane?

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:28:18 pm
content: Can't you just simply divide the signal in an upper half and a bottom half and measure those with two 20-24 bit adc's toget a higher overall resolution? close or higher than 28 bit ?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 04:53:41 pm
content: The 32 Bit resolution is more like the data format. I would guess they just did not consider any value between 24 Bits and 32 Bits. Restricting it to just 24 Bits could add a little to the errors, so they to the next 8 Bit step. However some of the 24 Bit SD adc's also give 30/32 Bit data without calling them 32 Bit - but the noise limit is usually at less than 24 Bits.The INL of some of the SD converters, like the LTC2400 or LTC2442 is relatively predictable - so there is a chance to numerical compensate for some of it. This essentially does not work with the LTC2500. Still the specified maximum INL for the LTC2500 is about the best one can get from a of the shelf chip ADC (the chip used in the Prema DMMs might be better - but availability is a problem). However after adjustment / selction some of the SD converters might get better values.The reference could be in deed important to get ultimate possible noise level of the ADC. If not used in a ratio-metric application (e.g. resistive sensor). This could be a problem. For the higher frequencies (e.g. > 10..1000 Hz) one could use filtering. But for the lower frequencies it would help to have a reference with low 1/f noise. Using a secondary reference and thus measure signal and reference in fast sequence would only make sense if this is also needed to avoid 1/f noise in the amplifier chain. It would also take some time and thus increase the overall noise. So it would be a real advantage to really have the reference from a low 1/f noise source and do connection to a secondary reference only on a very long time scale (like hours). I don't think it is practical to use a secondary reference to also get the 0.01 .. 1 Hz range from that reference - it would degrade the overall noise too much, as it would take a considerable part (like 25%) of the time and add the noise of the ref. measurement.For the datasheets 4 of the LTC6655 seem to be about the same level of 1/f noise as the LTZ1000 at 4 mA. Not sure how real world performance would be. The LTZ circuit would need the extra divider, which could also include higher frequency filtering. Not sure how much noise a capacitive divider would add.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 05:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on June 21, 2017, 04:53:41 pmI guess the bit count determines the smallest signal you can read, while overlaid on a larger signal?So for example, measuring a 1 uV change on a 10V DC signal requires more A/D bits than measuring 1uV "on its own"?

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 06:44:13 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on June 21, 2017, 04:53:41 pmYou have to be very carefully with the noise specs of the LTC6655.I don´t know how they really measure them.(perhaps with some kind of foam to thermally isolate the reference connected only with thin wires.)On a real PCB (with cotton pads on both sides of PCB),I measure for a 5V device between 2.2uVpp and 3.6uVpp which is factor 2-3 above the datasheet value.Interestingly the variation depends largely on the power supply voltage.The higher the self heating - the more noise.but who has a 5.5V rail in a system when he wants to measure up to 10V.with best regardsAndreas

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 07:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 21, 2017, 05:13:18 pmUsually the definitions are as follows:Resolution: (effective resolution) = ld2(full range / rms noise) in bitsso resolution has nothing to do with bit count only with the rms voltage of the noise.E.g. the LTC2400 has 1.5uV rms noise (around 10uVpp).With 5V full range you have a resolution of 21.6 Bits.Bit count: number of valid bits in result register (with no missing codes).so DNL has to be less than +/- 0.5 LSB to determine the number of bits.E.g. the LTC2400 has a 28 bit result register but only 24 bits without missing codes. -> 24 Bit converter.with best regardsAndreas

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 07:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: Andreas on June 21, 2017, 07:09:39 pmIs the noise of the ADC due to its input resistance (i.e. the resistor noise of its own input circuitry) or is there something else that dominates?

author: MisterDiodes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 07:42:56 pm
content: A few more thoughts and Head's Up:Andreas is correct - most of the time the LTC6655 is more noisy than you're led to believe. These always show up on the Linear Tech Demo boards when an LTZ-level device would be better suited. And then you get the 20-bit '5791 DAC demo board from AD and it has the layout for the LTZ for best performance <Grin>. That tells you everything you need to know on what you're going to need to get to a stable 20 bit accuracy level...RE: High Rez ADC's. Talk to Apps engineering at Linear Tech. Yes the datasheet says 32 bit, and the internal SAR setup might be 32 bit but one thing is guaranteed: That's never going to be verified at that full resolution absolute - there is nothing to verify against. They will admit that also.Modern SAR better than older Delta Sig?? I could be that when you're looking at slightly quieter data it seems that way - you can over sample, dither, gather a lot more samples in an effort to improve ENOB (Effective Number of Bits) and the real red flag is when you see noise figures on datasheets specified atzero signal input. Get very suspicious at that point.The reality is that NO amount of math voodoo averaging, SINC filtering or any other bullshit "computer science data gymnastics" is going to conjour up better -absolute accuracy- than what the basic system hardware design provides. Yes you will maybe get a little quieter data, and yes maybe you can get another bit or two ENOB and get the flicker down a little - but that doesn't necessarily mean you've gotten any betteraccuracy.A lot of times we'll take a noisy 16-bit accurate (but very accurate) data over "20 bits flicker free" garbage ADC data any day, no matter how flicker-free it looks. It depends on the application, and what the customer is willing to pay for, and what true real accuracy is needed. It doesn't help that the "flicker free" data is sitting nice and quiet several 10's of counts north or south of where it should be, especially when you realize you got some digital switching noise beating in with your data or auto zero amp somewhere. Oops. You never know until you really test and verify your input system across all possible input ranges.In the real world, once you start to go after higher ADC resolutions you notice that Reality is shooting down the Theory in your head right between the eyes when: a) That Vref is never quite good enough over longer time spans b) That front end circuit feeding that magical ADC is never quite good and stable enough over time and temperature c) Those '5400 resistor paks you put on the front end amps (because LT datasheets told you to) aren't good enough once you start looking at noise and long term stability d) The voodoo math SINC / averaging / oversample isn't delivering true better absolute accuracy performance like you thought e) Trying to add a correction curve to a faster SAR chip is probably a fool's errand once you realize it's not stable over time and temperature f) Putting a hot, noisy, expensive FPGA chip right next to that high res ADC is a really dumb idea when you're trying to retrieve a delicate signal g) Once you get the system running and realize that the 32-bit ADC has fairly lackluster stability over time and temperature (because the heat from that expensive, hot and noisy FPGA is causing data trouble), and so on.Be very careful and consider all the pitfalls. I've hinted at just a few to get you started.So no, in my experience newer SAR's are not always a real improvement over a stable and proven '240x series, not by a long shot - at least not in every application. Now if you do need the sample speed, then the SAR's can do that...but not always the best choice if you're trying to chase down into low PPM's absolute measures. We had a good experience using a '2500 reading fast (4kHz), faint air pressure changes on a very low air pressure sensor, and using a '6655 as Vref - but this was a ratiometric application. And these 32-bitters certainly work well for an application like that, as that is the intend market application. As LT will tell you.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 07:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: Andreas on June 21, 2017, 06:44:13 pmhttp://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an124f.pdf775 Nanovolt Noise Measurement for A Low Noise Voltage Referenceby Jim WilliamsHappy reading!Quote from: SilverSolder on June 21, 2017, 07:39:05 pmA SAR ADC is a switched capacitor ADC. It means, it switches a (randomly charged) internal capacitor for the voltage reference. For a short time, like nanoseconds in 1MSPS case. In that nanoseconds, you need to charge the internal capacitor to the voltage of the voltage reference. Very accurately, I suggest calculating with 0.5 of your desired accuracy. Easy task at 16 bit, you might get away with just a big 10 uF ceramic capacitor, but it is difficult at 20+ bit and difficult if your samplerate is high.

author: MisterDiodes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 07:58:05 pm
content: NANDBlog - RE: Jim Williams and '6655 - Yes, that's what the datasheets show, and that's how they were built when JWiiliams was around....but have you checked a recent shipment of 6655's? We just had to return a batch of 2.5V to LT that were an order of magnitude out of whack for noise. LT did replace them but you have to keep checking. It seems like something is going on at LT after the takeover.That's another thing to watch out for with newer SAR's - What you thought was an OK level of noise on your 10V Vref, maybe a few uV...all of the sudden that uV noise becomes about a 4X bigger problem with a 2.5V Vref....

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 08:04:17 pm
content: Reminds me of the modification i had to make on my LT2508-demo board to measure real bipolar signals: add a LT5400-resistor network and a LT6363. Calculating the error resulting from that modification gets you out of those 32-bit and super high accuracy dreams.

author: MisterDiodes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 08:12:26 pm
content: Yep - This is definitely the world whereTheory Ends and Reality Begins.... You find out in a hurry the only real datasheet is the one you get from building and testing real circuits, for your application.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 09:43:00 pm
content: Quote from: MisterDiodes on June 21, 2017, 07:58:05 pmMaybe reference noise could usefully be defined the same way Andreas said above for an ADC...i.e. (effective resolution) = ld2(full range / rms noise) in bitsFor a reference, the "full range" is just its voltage.

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 09:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 21, 2017, 07:47:52 pmHello,as we have already discussed in this forum:the bandwith of the AN124 is lesser than 0.1 .. 10 Hzlower bandwidth -> lower measured noise.E.g. for the high passes:1) 1300uF * 1200R gives 0.1Hz lower bandwith.2) 165uF * 10K = 0.1 Hz lower bandwidth.3) root sum square correction = 0.1 Hz lower bandwidthAll series gives around 0.17 Hz lower bandwidth (or -9 dB instead of -3 dB at 0.1 Hz) and so on.Sorry thats not a good example for a well designed cirquit.with best regardsAndreas

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 08:14:07 am
content: What about AN159:http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an159fa.pdf?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 09:51:54 am
content: Quote from: Andreas on June 21, 2017, 09:45:08 pmI don't think Nandblog was offering it as an exemplar of good design, it was a direct answer to your question:Quote from: Andreas on June 21, 2017, 06:44:13 pmThe app note documents the measurement technique and circuit used for measuring the LTC6655 noise for the datasheet.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 10:16:12 am
content: Quote from: Andreas on June 21, 2017, 09:45:08 pmYes it is a direct answer. The DUT is the LTC6655I think it is intentional:" Figure 6, taken at the circuit’s oscilloscope output, shows 160nV 0.1Hz to 10Hz noise in a 10 secondample window. Because noise adds in rootsum-square fashion, this represents about a 2% error in the LTC 6655’s expected 775nV noise fi gure. This term is accounted for by placing Figure 3’s “root-sum-square correction” switch in the appropriate position during reference testing. The resultant 2% gain attenuation fi rst order corrects LTC6655 output noise reading for the circuit’s 160nV noise fl oorcontribution."He is mentioning that the caps need 24h because the dielectric absorption. So I guess it took him long time to do all this. But in fact, re-reading it, I've noticed this:"Figure 8 is LTC6655 noise after the indicated 24-hourdielectric absorption soak time. Noise is within 775nVpeak-to-peak in this 10 second sample window withthe root-sum-square correction enabled. The verifi ed,extremely low circuit noise floor makes it highly likelythis data is valid."So he is saying that in a single 10s sample the noise is less than the datasheet value, with root sum square correction?I'm seeing some 700nV peak to peak noise on figure 8. And he did strip chart recording to verify that the circuit is not noisy, but there are no strip charts for the LTC6655???Maybe he is telling us that the datasheet values are wrong? I mean most of the application note is "hey look, my circuit works!".OK, I looked up the qoute at the end."It ceased; yet still the sails made onA pleasant noise till noon,A noise like of a hidden brookIn the leafy month of June,That to the sleeping woods all nightSingeth a quiet tune."This is too amusing. Maybe we should forget about that 0.25ppm noise.

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 08:40:10 pm
content: Hello,what I want to know is the mechanical setup of the measurement.Ok one thing is that they messed up the frequency response of the amplifier.But there is still a large gap between the 0.25 ppmpp and the about 0.6-0.7 ppmpp that I measure.With best regardsAndreas

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 09:49:58 am
content: MisterDiodes mentioned that there are LTC6655 out there which dont behave noise-wise like they state in the datasheet. Maybe you have one of those Andreas?

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 06:34:44 pm
content: Hello,shurely not.the first sample of LTC6655 I bought end of 2011 in MSOP8-Package. (have not noted the date code).the 2nd was a LS8-Package with date code R91434.So both samples (being very similar at the same power supply voltage)are not "recently".By the way: even AD586 bought "recently" (Datecode of early 2016) showa higher noise than usual. (3-4 uVpp instead of 2-3 uVpp).And many of the AD587 of early 2016 show popcorn noise.So there seems to be a general problem with some silicon wafers ...Would be interesting which datecode MisterDiodes has on his LTC6655.With best regardsAndreas

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 07:24:32 pm
content: To add to the general malaise with LTC I just bought two LTC6655BHLS8-5 from Linear. Were backordered and just shipped from Malaysia.I don't have the means to measure noise exactly but I estimate they are in the range mentioned in the noise thread.But one is out of spec: it shows a voltage of 5.0602 volts the other 5.00008, in spec. First time this has happened to me (seven samples, total).Sad. Not even in spec for the non-B version.

author: MisterDiodes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 03:52:28 am
content: Quote from: Andreas on June 23, 2017, 06:34:44 pmThis was an order received in late March / April, dates I believe were third week Jan, direct from LT. They were replaced though with in spec parts. LT seemed to be happy to exchange, and it seemed to be no surprise. They didn't offer any story that I know of, but that something slipped past QC testing. This is not the usual routine for them, so it seems like something is off.It is harder to keep the noise down with diffused voltage setting resistors built on the die - a lot can go wrong there and it's not the substrate necessarily.The bottom line is it's always a good idea to spot-check all incoming shipments of the before assembling a whole batch of product.Off topic but: Even the distributors are not paying close attention recently- Today I reviewed an incoming order from DigiKey with about 135 line items - three bags were shorted (for instance we got 45ea. 18 pin sockets instead of 50), and 2 bags had the wrong IC, and one IC bag was packed up with the wrong package type (It was supposed to be TO-220 but we got SMT's) and so on. The order BOM was correct, the packing list was correct - it was just stuff mis-packed at their end. That has happened on every incoming order from them in the last few weeks...Take a look at your goods carefully. Especially if you order higher grade Vrefs or amps, make sure you receive the quality grade you paid for.

author: branadic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 10:47:37 am
content: Hey TiN,what about the results of your comparision?-branadic-

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 02:43:56 am
content: Was reading this app note regarding using the LT6655 in conjunction with the LTC2500-32. It seems that the LT6655 is herein given a more realistic noise figure:DN568:http://www.analog.com/media/en/reference-design-documentation/design-notes/dn568f_web.pdfQuoteSo 0.67ppm in this app note, not 0.25ppm as in the datasheet.Vindicates the experience of Mister Diodes, Andreas and the measurements in the Low Noise thread.

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 07:36:37 pm
content: Quote from: RandallMcRee on April 11, 2018, 02:43:56 amHello,the 0.67 ppm RMS (typ) in the app-note are for the wide band noise.The data sheet lists both values:0.25 ppm (peak-peak) for the 1/f (0.1 .. 10Hz) noise and0.67 ppm (RMS) for the 10Hz .. 1kHz wide band noise.What I measured is the 1/f noise.But it seems also that this value is dependant on battery voltagehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-low-frenquency-noise-meter/msg986718/#msg986718Further the evaluation method is somewhat different.I usually calculate the average of around 15 measurements with 10 second measurement time.Whereas on the LTC6655 LT introduced some kind of "median" evaluation.So they sort the resulting values and take the "middle" of the sorted values.Further Alex has found out that the AN124 amplifier which is used to characterize the LTC6655has a too low bandwidth and thus delivers too low noise values.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-low-frenquency-noise-meter/msg939106/#msg939106with best regardsAndreas