Do Modern NiMH LSD Batteries Have Capability Of Alkaline Batteries? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 04:44:05 am
content: I thought that NiMH batteries are simply rechargeable alkalines and when wanted to use them with this cordless mini-screwdriver:A person from Black & Decker's support told me that only alkalines should be used with it.But recently I stumbled upon saying on the packaging of GP ReCyko batteries which retain85%of their charge after 1 year and75%after 3, claiming these rechargeables are like alkalines, so I was thinking about answer of person from support. If he told me only alkalines can be used with mini-cordless screwdriver and GP ReCykos claim to be "rechargeable alkalines", can I use them with that tool?Also I wanted to know if GP ReCykos or Eneloops, i.e modernLSD NiMH batteriescan be used with and won't damage the following:Thanks.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 05:00:25 am
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on June 21, 2012, 04:44:05 amThat made my skin crawl ... NiMH can put out a crazier amount of power compared to alkalinesAlkalines are primary batteries and although they have mad mAH ratings but their high IR is just insaneMaybe the cordless screwdriver needs 1.5V per cell to put out a proper torque? NiMH and NiCD's only put out 1.2V per cell (nom)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 05:03:22 am
content: This isn't an issue i would worry about, if a device requires AA batteries it should work perfectly fine with any type of AA battery etc...Obviously some batteries are going to last longer than others but that's about it.The only issue you sometimes come across is that rechargeable nimh and nica are only 1.2 volts where as a normal non-rechargeable is 1.5 voltsIn some appliances (rare) this can cause issues, like the device thinking the battery is flat when it really has lots of energy left.The company may also quote safety reasons.Rechargeable batteries can supply much more current and can cause fires if shorted.A regular battery is much less likely to cause a fire.So if they say "No rechargeable batteries" and someone uses rechargeables and burns their house down the company is legally covered.However, most of the time it's just that the company can't be bothered testing their products with all batteries types available.It's easier to say "only use battery type X" and eliminate the potential issues that could arise from using other batteries.That way if a customer calls them with a problem they don't have to deal with it if the customer is using the wrong batteries.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 07:01:03 am
content: In general you can use modern NiMH LSD batteries anywhere that alkaline batteries can be used. I personally like eneloops for their proven high quality and durability, and not least their LSD properties.I have a whole collection of items that take AA batteries including things like your screwdriver and I use eneloops in all of them. Not a problem at all. It is frankly foolish to use alkaline batteries in high power devices like cordless screwdrivers or cordless soldering irons no matter what the manufacturer might say.Things that I use eneloops in:cordless screwdrivercordless soldering ironelectric toothbrushelectric scalescomputer mousecomputer keyboardHarmony remoteelectric fancordless coffee whisktorches/flashlightsand probably some other things I can't remember...

author: TriodeTiger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 08:33:05 am
content: Why not look at wiki articles for the battery chemistries you are speaking about? Seeing everything as Eneloops and LSD and LSD compared to other NiMHs is pointless and not useful for electronic design.If it's lower voltage than alkalines nominal and does not heat up to 400*C during normal operation it probably won't damage it things rampantly.QuoteI found a single alkaline in the backup servo control for a nuclear bunker door mechanism, that guages its power as well as that, doesn't it?If it can't run on an "NiMH" then it's either completely normal or crappily designed, its not going to destroy a device unless it relies on IR or something. Now if specs are looked at as a guage of "danger", a 3V+ lithium primary in AA format or something similar is something to watch out for. Short that (with hopefully minor risk), or put it in your cordless drill for kicks.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 11:26:53 am
content: Quote from: IanB on June 21, 2012, 07:01:03 amCordless soldering iron running on batteries? Never heard about that, but I don't understand how wireless soldering iron can work on batteries. Must be weak for limited projects...

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 11:33:47 am
content: As you saw cordless whisker above that functions on 2 AAs, is it possible to get more power out of it? Now to clarify, when I make coffee, whisker operates fast but when I whisk 2 eggs with yolks and milk to make omelette, whisker slows down since content is more dense.If it is possible to get more power out of it, what is the way to do it? Will replacing alkalines with NiMHs make a difference?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 12:06:22 pm
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on June 21, 2012, 11:26:53 amgoogle for "cold heat soldering iron"They don't have a heating element like a normal iron. Instead the tip is two separate conductors.When you touch the tip to something metal you short the conductors together and the iron supplies a limited current through the short to heat it up.So they only produce heat when you're touching them on something, then they stop as soon as you break contact which saves lots of battery energy. Also since they're only heating up the object they contact with it doesn't need as much energy as a normal iron where you have to heat up the entire metal iron.The battery still doesn't last very long in terms of total time supplying current, but since you only need it for a second or two in order to solder a joint it lasts long enough to solder a decent number of joints.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 12:12:12 pm
content: But it can be dangerous for a couple of reasons :Sensitive parts can cause a bit of problemsAccidentally touching V+ and GND pins ( It happens ... ) together ... BAM !

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 12:14:47 pm
content: QuoteHighest energy density is non-rechargeable Lithium. Find an unregulated 3.7V that will fit in the space. May need to do some modsas the "AA" shapes are / can be slightly larger. 3.7V should be fine, as 2 NEW good AAs can be 1.6V+ X2 anyway.You can get regulated Lithiums, at ~ 3.0V, but you're wasting energy, and you don't need to. That'll beat your eggs !!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 07:02:42 am
content: Quote from: Psi on June 21, 2012, 12:06:22 pmNO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!This:http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-Soldering-Iron-Cordless-FX-901/dp/B0007IS2ZKIt won't solder big things, but it works fine for small jobs where mains power is not available or convenient.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 07:07:10 am
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on June 21, 2012, 11:33:47 amThat's a drink whisk. It's not designed for eggs. For omelets just use a fork.Replacing alkalines with NiMH may make a difference since in principle NiMH batteries can deliver many times more power. But since the motor in the mini-whisk is not designed to deliver more power the practical difference will be marginal. I have found Energizer lithium AA batteries give the best performance in my mini-whisk due to the higher voltage.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 07:17:45 am
content: Quote from: MmCoffee on June 21, 2012, 08:33:05 amBut it's perfectly useful for consumers.LSD batteries like eneloops have changed the market for NiMH rechargeables. Previously NiMH batteries would lose their charge rapidly if not used for a while and therefore could not be relied on to work when you needed them. Eneloops have changed this by holding a good charge for a year or more.Add to this the cost saving from recharging and not buying disposables, and the peace of mind that eneloops will not leak crap inside your precious gear, and the decision is easy.Eneloops will deliver 2-3 amps in power hungry applications where alkalines simply cannot go. Few things are madespecificallyfor NiMH batteries, but those that are will not function adequately on alkalines.This is where a danger comes from with motorized devices. If the motor stalls due to heavy load then NiMH batteries might deliver enough current to damage the motor where alkalines are unlikely to do so. However this is a small risk that has never materialized for me.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 08:07:49 am
content: A lot of companies don't recommend using rechargeable as in the past some of them would reverse their polarity when discharged too far, As far as I know this is no longer a problem but I have still seen warnings about this in instruction sheets.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 08:19:56 am
content: With multiple cells in series once one cell runs flat the others start to charge up the flat cell in reverse.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 12:31:28 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on June 23, 2012, 08:07:49 amIt's natural to use non-rechargeable batteries until they're completely empty because you've paid for and want to extract the most energy from them, but rechargeable batteries should be charged long before they go completely empty. (NiCd needs periodic full discharging for "cleaning", but Lion and NiMh do not and should not be completely discharged.)

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 11:41:31 pm
content: If you buy the cold heat iron, you will swear at it for the rest of your life. I am now cursed to give it a bad review every time I come across any post. It's really something you should not try. I wouldnt even touch it even if you pay me. It's more like a toy than anything else.Quote from: IanB on June 23, 2012, 07:02:42 amtapatalk

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 12:28:53 am
content: Good to know.I've never used one.I didn't think there was anything else able to solder things using AA batteries, due to power requirements?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 02:13:11 am
content: Quote from: Psi on June 24, 2012, 12:28:53 amYup, the Hakko FX-901 works fine.The RadioShack version works fine too:http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2911246However the RadioShack one has a silly momentary on push button switch that causes finger ache. I modified mine to have a toggle on/off switch.Either iron does perfectly well with small wire connections or PCB soldering. But since they eat a lot of power you would be crazy to run them off disposable batteries. Rechargeable batteries all the way.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 05:46:37 am
content: I have an automotive soldering iron around here somewhere, it's about the same size as a normal mains iron and takes 3-4V heater elements that connect straight on 12V from the car battery through a push button on the side.Draws about 100Abut only takes 1-2 seconds from cold and you're solderingI had to measure it with one of these magnetic field current clamps used for starter motor wiresThe heater elements don't last forever, as you can imagine, but do last for a while since you only need to tap the button once every 10 sec or so.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 07:01:22 am
content: Quote from: IanB on June 23, 2012, 07:17:45 amI have BYD, GP and Camelions that I bought in 2006 with Europe charger, but after I charge them, they are empty the next day:Until I learned about LSD batteries (Eneloops, ReCykos) I thought I will never buy NiMH again. By they way, which would you recommend? Eneloops or ReCykos?I have seen Eneloops 2000mAh with 1500 recharges and Eneloops with 2500mAh but with 500 recharges. Do you have experience with both and what is your opinion?Thanks.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 08:54:28 am
content: QuoteEneloops were one (or possibly joint developers) of the LSD battery and didn't just copy it. I've used them for years, plus I've triedseveral other brands, mainly used in DSLRs. I'd go for the 2500s, if the extra capacity is useful for you. The #cycles figure isdependant on SO many factors, it's not relevant. I've had expensive brands last 6 months and vice versa. Eneloops do last !!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 02:29:01 pm
content: I offer different advice than digsys. The 2500 mAh eneloops are much more expensive than the regular 2000 mAh ones. Unless you really need the extra capacity (unlikely unless you are a professional photographer or something) I would go with the regular eneloops. They are much better value.(Oh, but comparing eneloop with ReCyko I would say eneloop. If you look after your eneloops they will last for years. ReCykos can probably be purchased at lower cost but eneloops have proven performance that ultimately makes them worth the extra money.)

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 06:19:11 am
content: @digsys @IanBDo you guys know about about Amazon Basics NiMHs batteries?Amazon rebrand stuff under their name but stuff worth getting actually. For example, their Micro SDHC flash cards are among top class ones and compare to big brands.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 06:42:43 am
content: The Amazon Basics appear to have barely any price advantage over eneloops. Since I trust eneloops from personal experience and I know very little about these other batteries the decision for me is easy. I have bought other brands of battery from time to time but they have never been as good as the eneloops I own. So I no longer have any interest in buying anything else.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 07:57:23 am
content: Quote from: IanB on June 25, 2012, 06:42:43 amEneloops blows all the NiMH's out of the water, it's just the best NiMH though i never really use it for anything other then my "AA" cell meters

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 04:11:02 pm
content: Tenergy Centura LSD NiMH work very close to eneloops, for half price. The jury's still out on its long term durability but its worth a look.http://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Centura-Self-Discharge-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00410B734/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340640610&sr=8-1&keywords=tenergy+lsd+nimhThey also make good 9v LSD NiMH.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 06:56:04 pm
content: Did anyone of you guys ever used MAHA 9000 or LaCrosse chargers? Would like to hear you experiences.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 08:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on June 25, 2012, 06:56:04 pmThe Maha C9000 is well engineered and has a quality feel to it. It comes with a very good warranty and excellent support from Maha. If anything goes wrong with it Maha have demonstrated they will put things right.The LaCrosse chargers are cheaply engineered and poorly designed. They have failed more often than they should and if you need warranty support from LaCrosse it will be like getting water out of a stone.On a technical level you can direct design criticisms against the Maha, but overall it is an excellent unit.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 09:02:46 pm
content: I have both. The Maha C9000 is the better charger by a long shot. I concur with IanB. The main fault of the C9000 is the ergonomics, meaning the layout of the buttons and how they choose to present the data, i.e., annunciators, but not the technical capability of the charger to properly charge NiMH cells. The batteries stay cool throughout the charge cycle, defined as < 40oC, and its never run hot on the recommended highest charge current [ i.e., 50% of the AH ]. There are very many detailed reviews on Amazon.The Lacrosse has better ergonomics and a smaller size, but it ran batteries and the charger hot using the same high charge currents the Maha uses, heat is a key factor for reducing the lifespan of a battery. That was some years ago, maybe today they've fixed those issues. So its best at, in my estimate, < 500mA.Many reviewers who rave about the Lacrosse have never tried programming the advance options, I have: its erratic, at worst, a pain to do at best, but most annoying, are the charge chambers are not independent, IIRC at =>1A, 2 pairs of chambers are set at the same amperage, but you have to remember which two because if you try to re-program its paired chamber, nothing sticks. On the Maha, you can not only set charging amps on any chamber independent of any other, you can set any mode too: charge, discharge, recondition, cycle etc.,I think its been over 1 year since I've been using it, and my NiMH batteries still are like new. I can say that because the Maha uses IEC standard test for rating NiMH, which takes ~ 3 days to complete, which you can then compare against when the battery was virgin, or in the case of top makers like Sanyo [ now Panasonic], take what the label says the battery is rated at.Quote from: Boris_yo on June 25, 2012, 06:56:04 pm

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 01:51:38 pm
content: @IanBthanks.Does above mean that if you own over 50% of other company stake, it becomes your subsidiary which is on;y 50% yours? I mean at which point of bought percentages of shares, the other company get to be called your subsidiary?Quote from: saturation on June 25, 2012, 09:02:46 pmDoes that mean Maha is not good for travelling abroad? What charger would you recommend for travelling abroad, provided I use Eneloops?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 07:03:39 pm
content: Yes. Although thevalueof the company is 50.2% yours, the management is effectively 100% Panasonic, as they can never be outvoted by the board, making Sanyo a subsidiary, and Panasonic the parent.Quote from: Boris_yo on June 27, 2012, 01:51:38 pmI think the Maha and Lacrosse have universal PSU, that plug into the chargers, it can use any voltage you just need the plug adapter for the socket.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 07:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on June 27, 2012, 07:03:39 pmOkay, but in regards to convenience, what about its bulkyness, dimensions and mobility to use it abroad?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 09:52:25 pm
content: The Lacrosse BC9009, and similar size new versions are better for travel, I use it for that purpose. Its smaller and has many of the same features of the Maha C9000. Just check it to insure you can either cool it or it doesn't overheat, I think the Amazon reviews suggest the new model, BC1000, has a better thermal sensor.For everyday use, I use the Maha.Quote from: Boris_yo on June 27, 2012, 07:45:27 pm