Glen Williamson’s observations of EE students - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Blofeld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 06:52:06 pm
content: Some of you may know the animations from Williamson Labs, but the site also contains some interesting project descriptions and Glen Williamson's thoughts about education. During his time as a lecturer and advisor to the Senior Design Centre in the Electrical and Computer Engineering Department, NCSU, he made these observations:http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_dips.htmSome highlights:(about two graduating EE seniors, December 1996):"The first building of their circuit: they had wire warped the connections with BARE WIRES SHORTING OUT, in at least six different places. I asked if they saw anything wrong--they did not! The concept of bare wires touching eluded/eludes them!""It was suggested that they use an audio amplifier on the output of their circuit as a method of testing. They connected a 4 inch, eight ohm loud speaker across the very fragile detector diode that at best might furnish tens of microvolts of AF voltages.""They finally connected a battery powered audio amplifier to the detector diode using a SINGLE 30 gauge wire-wrap WIRE. That's it. No second ground return wire!"(about another student):"Student A, (computer engineering) while playing, crippled the AMIGA's operating system by moving device drivers, etc. out of the root directory: "because it looked better."(the best one is left to the end of the page, about two other seniors (!) in the Electrical and Computer Engineering Department):"Neither had ever seen a soldering iron, and did not know how to use one. They both--on two different occasions --grabbed the wrong end and burned themselves."EDIT: I initially posted this just because it's fun to read about these mishaps. Now I have seen some interesting replies with people comparing it to their own observations, so here is some additional info: On his resumee page, Williamson says he was faculty member at this department for 3 1/2 years, with more than 600 student advisees. He also says that he has many more such stories to tell, but I guess he already picked the juiciest ones for his page. So actually some of your experiences - half or even more students not being genuinely interested in EE - sound more dramatic. Maybe the situation has declined since 1996 ?

author: Chet T16
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 09:37:48 pm
content: I had a lab yesterday (third year ee) and brought my fluke 87 and Rigol scope with me, the rest of the students couldn't understand how or why I needed my own scope, they actually found it laughable. I didn't know whether to be more amazed or disappointed!I can't see how anyone would study ee and not want thier own scope, money issues aside.I'd believe all those stories and more! Now if i could just get the maths/theory down like the others I'd be happy

author: harnon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 09:42:59 pm
content: Strange... I'm doing mechanical engineering and most of the students are all over it, welding, lathing, milling. One of my friends has designed his own race car chassis... Of course, to a man (and the two women on our course) they all HATE electronics and think they should be banned, but I don't hold it against them!We do have one or two dangerous students though who aren't allowed anywhere near the tools, so I suppose thats not too different

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 09:46:38 pm
content: Neither of the students I was unfortunately grouped with could understand how to set up a power supply for +/- 5v.That lab did not go well.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 09:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: harnon on February 21, 2012, 09:42:59 pmThis is exactly what I'd expect though. Why would you do an engineering degree if you didn't enjoy making stuff?

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 09:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 21, 2012, 09:48:58 pmA sad personal observation through my (limited) teacher experience is that EE degree is perceived to be a safe, (previously) prestigious, money-making career that will guaranty a high-hopes job.As such, half of the students I've met were perfectly reasonable people but without any love or interest for the profession.Cheers

author: PedroDiogo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 10:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: Blofeld on February 21, 2012, 06:52:06 pmI'm almost finishing my EE degree (5th year) and I can tell you this is very common. I can say that because in a year I've taught more than 120 people how to solder at my university and most never used a soldering iron before.Quote from: Chet T16 on February 21, 2012, 09:37:48 pmHonestly I can't see a reason why you would bring your oscilloscope to a lab. Most likely they will have better materials there and it will improve your experience using other brands of oscilloscopes.You must also not forget that many of your colleagues may find that laughable because unlike you, they don't see electronics as a hobby

author: Chet T16
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 10:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDiogo on February 21, 2012, 10:11:06 pmIn our lab we have 90% tek2225s, some 2211s and one philips pm3055 (oh how i still want one) I have my own 2225 so I'm used to the tek scopes. I brought it because I find the Rigol enjoyable to use and it gave me a chance to use features I hadn't used at home (measuring hysteresis in x-y mode)I suppose it's like a mechanic that doesn't work on his own car...no wait that's mad too! Ah no I can see your point but it really isn't something I would want to do unless I had a hobbyist interestI should point out I'm 10 years older than most of them which may explain some differences!

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 10:37:22 pm
content: The very first electronics lab we ever had to do in the EE school at University was very simple.Every bench had a 15VAC source (lots of current) and the task was simply to connect a full wave rectifier and a 2000uF capacitor to get a rectified DC output. This is back in the days when a 2000uF/25VW capacitor was a large axial lead component. About the same volume as a D-Cell battery.It was really fun. Capacitors fizzing and exploding everywhere. At least 1/3 of the class got the capacitor the wrong way round. I cannot see any school doing something like that today, particularly not without any safety gear like goggles. The lecturer for the introductory design course was very good but really old school - you didn't dare turn up late, read a newspaper up the back or the biggest sin of all - fall asleep during his lecture! He wouldn't have thought twice about exposing the students to the odd explosion. It's good for them!Richard.

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 10:47:25 pm
content: I think Balaur has it right.Some (many?) come to an EE degree after being hobbyists for years and have a passion for and understanding of electronics. They may have a broad outlook or a narrow focus but they get the basics and know from experience that the business end of a soldering iron will burn.Others don't have a clue what they want to do when they go to college and somehow pick an EE degree as the way to earn a living. Big bucks and job security are probably the key factors for them. They wouldn't know a spool of soldier from a spool of magnet wire and would probably have about the same results using either to make a soldier joint.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 10:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 21, 2012, 09:48:58 pmFrom my experience the majority of people chose to study EE for reasons other than enjoyment and actual genuine interest in the subject.Things like:- Their parents wanted them too- Their friends did it so they just followed- They didn't care, that's the best/most impressive sounding course they had the marks to get into.- They think it's a "safe bet" to some high paying career.etc...I always find it amazing when they interview the top performing HSC (equiv to US high school SAT test?) students every year, the mark of which basically determines what university course you are eligible to get into. And most of them say they will now study to be doctor or lawyer, and it's clearly not because they want to, it's because they got the marks and they can, and society basically expect you to pick a course that needs those top marks. Many of them will completely change their minds based on what score they end up getting, and few of them "settle" for the subject they actually have genuine interest in, because, well, the majority of kids don't have genuine interests in anything.Dave.

author: harnon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 11:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 21, 2012, 10:51:15 pmMost parents at my school wanted medicine/law for their little darlings! I'm so glad I was too stupid for law at Melbourne UniQuote from: EEVblog on February 21, 2012, 10:51:15 pmThats why I've gone back to uni in my late 20s - got it wrong the first time... but then again when I finished school I had no idea!

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 11:22:21 pm
content: Imagine this:[9VDC wall wart] ---> [LM7805?] ---> | || |v v5V rail3.3V rail(unused)If I recall correctly, an MSP430 and XBee module were the only devices on the board. When asked if he had some undisclosed agenda for the 5V rail, his answer was, "No, that's just how I did it in Junior Design."This individual's outstanding GPA granted him interviews with a few well-known corporations last semester, Intel being one.True story. =\

author: electrode
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2012, 11:40:50 pm
content: "Why would you want a soldering iron at home???" - actual quote from a student engineer.I'm not even sure how many jobs are out there where you actually get paid to do hands-on electronics work as a degree qualified engineer. Most seem to be sitting at a PC all day preparing reports or emailing various bureaucratic documents, or perhaps working on a new "project", which is just an Excel spreadsheet tool...

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 01:07:14 am
content: Quote from: Balaur on February 21, 2012, 09:54:41 pmThat's the key point -- most are just in it for the money.My son (now a 2nd year EE student) was designing and building laser power supplies while still in high school.

author: ttp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 02:07:12 am
content: I work with one of them, he's my manager

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 07:06:12 am
content: i have seen cases like this far too often, even had a teacher for Dc and magnitism say when he shorted out a lab power supply, 12V / 0 ohms = 0 amps, i can only account that mistake to the supply going in to current limiting mode, but still :/ divide by 0 = infinite... and i was kicked out of the class for the night because i couldnt stop smirking.

author: Chet T16
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 08:59:12 am
content: Our energy systems lecturer told us "infinite current, it has a smell" That made me laugh

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 09:35:33 am
content: The good thing these days is a lot of those talentless people hose computer science, making room for real EEs.The bad thing these days is a lot of those talentless people chose computer science, making real bad software.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 11:42:39 am
content: It is not just EE, My brother in law ran a structural steel company. He had a contract for an extension to the local hospital. The drawings sent to him called for beams to pick up points that were left in on the original structure for this, ( he had done the original work) the design of the new beams called for a joint that would require the welder to have an arm 3 meters long and about six swivel joints in it, so he reworked the joint to allow manufacture, He got a phone call from the architect asking for a site meeting, the architect and the structural engineer were there with the engineer jumping up and down in rage as her design had not been followed when it was pointed out that the design could not be made and the new one was stronger a compromise was come to the beams had to come down a new drawing made with new beams to the drawing. The new drawing when it turned up a week later, just as my brother in laws office had produced. The structural engineer who was a lady just out of university and this was her firs big job knew squit about how things could be done in the real world. I have come upon this personally as well welders who cannot weld and on one occasion an electrician who did not know or understand ohms law.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 12:33:21 pm
content: One of my class mates ended up as a real estate agent after graduating. Another opened up a dairy, said he only did the BE because his parents wanted him to.But then again he married a fellow class mate so you can't say it was all for naught for those two.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 12:40:09 pm
content: And then there are all these programs around the world to attract people into studying STEM subjects.Imagine the world in five years when the first batch graduates and really wants to work as engineers. Mix that with the current fashion that being clueless, refusing to listen, refusing to read and refusing to study is cool. And of course cheating in exams and with homework. Than you can imagine a generation of engineers too stupid and too incompetent to even piss in a straight line. We are lucky if some manage to use a search engine. That would make them the "elite" among them.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 12:50:11 pm
content: While we are at it, today's Google Doodle is in honor of Heinrich Hertz. Nice.Not so nice is the waveform, containing segments with infinite rise times. Conclusion, don't let an arts major mess with engineering stuff.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 03:24:18 pm
content: For one of our 68HC11 projects in school, we had to make an elevator controller. We would read status from PC and input commands via PC. If we wanted to "go the extra mile" we could have a floor level 7 segment display or something.So over the weekend, I made the whole damn elevator. Windshield Wiper motor lift with rope and wooden structure with 4 floors, both on floor and at stop position IR sensors, and a little elevator control panel box with push buttons. Most other groups thought I was completely nuts.I learned more about microprocessors with that project than I ever could have by sending elevators commands into the micro via the PC, as all other groups did.The biggest lesson I learned. Socket your chips if there is a chance that a cut off resistor lead will short your 12V bus to your 5V logic bus.That was a bunch of logic chips to cut out and resolder...

author: Blofeld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 03:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: Chet T16 on February 21, 2012, 09:37:48 pmThat's an interesting point. I think it is far more likely that theory, and especially math, will kill a student's career than a lack of hands-on experience. So focussing on this subjects (even at the expense of practical electronics) might be seen as a sensible survival strategy, even for a student who really loves electronics. On the other hand, this does not explain the worst observations of Williamson. I mean, seeing two bare wires producing a short, and thinking nothing is wrong - hard to find an excuse for this !

author: Blofeld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 03:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: Hypernova on February 22, 2012, 12:33:21 pmThis seems to depend much on country / culture. For example, I once heard that Indian parents, if they can afford a higher education for their children, really push them hard into engineering, and especially EE (don't know if it's true).

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 04:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on February 22, 2012, 03:24:18 pmYep, I know the pain. I've broken my Sinclair Spectrum clone with the 24V rail required from programming an EPROM. It was a huge hit for me at that time (very young and money-less). I have managed to fix it after replacing a handful of components. Sweet victory!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 04:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: Blofeld on February 22, 2012, 03:46:09 pmAnd because it is cheaper and faster than medical school and the postgraduate specialization before you earn some money as a doctor. You become a doctor if your family is rich. If your family can barely afford a higher education you study computer science or engineering to rise in social rank.

author: nessatse
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 06:01:32 pm
content: While its true that I would not trust most of the people who graduated with me to put a plug on a toaster or knowing which end of a soldering iron to hold, I often wonder to what extent this applies to other professions, for example, medicine. We often place implicit trust in our doctor, but you never know if he was the equivalent of the EE student who does not even understand basic electricity...

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 06:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: nessatse on February 22, 2012, 06:01:32 pmThat is what the residency and internship are for.

author: 6502nop
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 07:10:05 pm
content: QuoteWith all due respect to the guy, he obviouslydoesn't know crapabout the AmigaOS. You DO NOT put "drivers" in the root,period. In fact, there is an established format for putting devices on an Amiga:- Throw the descriptor in the "devs:" drawer (mountlist)- Put any "handlers" in the "L:" drawer-If needed, put any "x.device" drivers in the "Expansion" drawer*- Add any startup routines to the "startupii" or "user-startup" filesIn other words, the student was actually doing therightthing, but may have forgotten to update the location of the files in the description or startup files. It was the instructor or hardware vendor (video digitizer? Either Digi-view or DCTV) that got it wrong! That, and you don't need to doanythingto mount the PAR: or PRT: devices, as those are set up by default.The only way for this to make sense is if the student moved thedrawerssomewhere else, and the Ami couldn't find them in the PATH given. In this case, the Ami would boot in the "Oh, crap!" mode, as it probably wouldn't be able to find the startup files or the "LoadWB" command, dropping it to a DOS prompt.*Yes, that's right - "IF" a device driver is needed, you throw it in the Expansion drawer. This is due to how the Ami configures hardware. The driver is actually stored on ROM on the device itself, so it only needs to be loaded from disk if the device installs onto another device (parallel port digitizer), or has no ROM (allowing a simple download to update the hardware, like modern systems).6502Why, yes, I do have a few Amigas. Why do you ask?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 07:36:09 pm
content: Hey, stop ruining perfectly good rants about how the current generation of students is stupid with relevant facts.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 07:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on February 22, 2012, 04:33:29 pmI think the rich ones are more likely to pass on the rules of the game and so would study something like art history and go and trade in the city/wall st. Medical school and engineering are more likely middle class pursuits that are guaranteed to stop you/elevate you from being a peasant.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 08:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: electrode on February 21, 2012, 11:40:50 pmAs a degree qualified engineer, I have to admit that most of my time is spent in front of a PC doing reports. I figure this is the price that must be paid after doing more enjoyable things. For instance - putting 1kA through a resistor - just to test that the instrument didn't blow up when the resistor burnt out (due to the inductance of the test leads). HonestNeil

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 09:48:57 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on February 22, 2012, 06:12:02 pmYet bad engineers still make it through the intern/apprenticeship during their 4 years of qualifying engineering experience (NSPE.org requirement in the US). Even if they never manage to pass the PE exam, they will still likely remain employed as an engineer somewhere, just a bit limited with what they're allowed to do (unable to perform jobs where a PE signature is required).So if it's possible for such a thing to happen in engineering, isn't it just possible that it happens in medicine as well, particularly if their internship is only a year long?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 09:53:07 pm
content: QuoteInternship (or equivalent) may only be a year long but there'smuchmore to postgraduate medical training than a one year internship - generally it's at least 10 years, many hours and many post-graduate exams before you get to fly solo.

author: electrode
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 09:55:06 pm
content: Yes, it happens in all professions. There are plenty of quack doctors and quack dentists out there, encompassing both crazy and stupid, as well as the sitcom examples of terrible lawyers and accounts, which also bear an element of truth.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 10:17:43 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on February 22, 2012, 09:53:07 pmI realize it's a lot more to it than just a year as an intern...But I can't help but think about those that can stuff things into their short-term memory well enough to pass exams, but their overall retention is no where near what the test scores would indicate. And then there's the potential of cheaters making it through (one of the uni's I attended had a massive cheating scandal not too long ago with undergrad business majors, and it makes me wonder how many didn't get caught and ended up graduating? ).

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 10:52:17 pm
content: Speaking purely for medicine and principally for UK training it's pretty hard for the truly incompetent to get through to independent practice. That's not to say it's impossible but generally the clueless either get some clue, are weeded out, or find their niche in an area of medicine with less patient contact. UK training includes, these days, an absolute minimum of 8 years post grad experience - in practice more because it's hard to get a job with the minimum experience - together with essentially continuous assessment, yearly (or more frequent) reviews and post graduate exams pretty much whatever branch of medicine you want to practice in.As I said it does happen, of course, that someone plays the system - or simply develops some rather oddball ideas along the way but on the whole I think that UK medical training is not too bad - not perfect by a long chalk butmostpeople who get through it are basically competent.

author: harnon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 11:08:44 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on February 22, 2012, 10:52:17 pmSame is pretty true in Australia... many many years of instruction, training, mentoring and some pretty bad ass exams at the end with failure rates higher than Greece's debt. Of course there are bad doctors just like there are bad engineers, thats why they invented second opinions.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2012, 11:33:24 pm
content: QuoteNo, they invented 2nd opinions because the old adage is true:"If you ask 5 engineers how to solve a problem, you'll get 5 answers - or 6 if one went to MIT"

author: caroper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 12:17:54 am
content: The differences between the professions are that:Doctors bury their mistakes,Architects grown Ivy on them,Engineers have to support them.

author: RJSC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 12:36:46 am
content: Quote from: harnon on February 21, 2012, 09:42:59 pmThats exactly what happens at my University, in Aveiro, Portugal.On the Electronics Department you see almost no one doing nothing besides classwork, and most teachers do not encourage us to do hand-on work.On the other hand, when I pass by the mechanical engineering department I regularly see lots of students building things, cutting, grinding, milling, welding and they have several cars and machines they built exhibited. They have a big room dedicated to do hands on work, with the tools available for students to do their own stuff. I have even gone there to use the drill press to drill PCBs and no one had a problem with it.The vast majority of the EE teachers and students here care about is maths, paper exercises, simulations, and the bare essentials on breadboards.All the focus is on computing values and symbolic expressions, which is making it very hard for me to finish the degree since I could say I'm math challenged for an engineer as they see it here.The vast majority of the disciplines do not allow calculators on the exams if they have numeric problems or worst, force you to do everything with symbolic only (no numeric values) calculations, which are hard to manipulate.I have to admit that this teaching model fits that majority of the students who are good with maths and went to EE because "it sounded cool" or were told the market is only absorbing engineers and health care professionals, so they wont face unemployment as the linguists, historians, philosophers, sociologists, journalists, artists, etc.Since they were good with maths and bad at chemistry and biology they choose EE because in this technology driven era, it sounds cooler then the classic mechanical or construction engineering.To the rest of us who had electronics as a hobby since late childhood struggle handling math, but love electronics its just not so.I was even top of class on biology, and struggled to keep going at math, but I loved electronics.I got trough biology just by applying some deductive reasoning and common sense, but was no interested in it.Besides, cruelly experimenting with living creatures (human or not), cutting trough flesh, and the likes disgusts me.I remember the first electronic circuit I built:I was 9 years old, and I've tried to power a DC motor from a broken toy from the bottle dynamo of my bike, since I was tired of begging for batteries to the family for my experiments.However, since it putted out AC all it did was to vibrate the motor back and forwards.I remembered reading about diodes, AC and DC on some encyclopedia like books focused on electricity and went on salvaging diodes from a broken TV at my grandparents house to make a full wave rectifier. When I finally made the motor run from the power generated from my bike I was thrilled.Until today I have only met a handful of people amongst the hundreds taking the EE course who really had electronics as a hobby before they came to the EE course.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 12:54:15 am
content: Most likely, though, the mech eng students still have to do all the mathematics and paper exercises as well. You really can't get through an engineering degree in any discipline without a lot of mathematics and theory.

author: RJSC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 01:35:15 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 23, 2012, 12:54:15 amEven there the ME students have it simplified...Mech and Construction Eng go trough separate simplified Calculus and Numeric Analysis classes for engineering, the EE go trough the regular Calculus and Numeric Analysis along with the Mathematics Course students...How's that for fairness?Of course, I'm not against the theory, but against excessive math complication.As an example, take something such as:In many Universities around the world, they give you numeric values like that and let you use a graphing calculator to solve the simultaneous equation system.In my University, you have to do the same with no numeric values for the voltages, It's just Va, Vb, Vc, Vd...To solve the simultaneous equation system using letters takes me far far longer than to do it using numeric values, and I run out of time to finish the exam. Letters do not add-up, divide or multiply-up and condense into one.During your working life, if you need to solve a circuit to find a symbolic expression (say, to put on a design guide) you're not time restricted, and most of the time, all the calculations you need to do are numeric.Does it make sense to fail an electronics exam just because you are slow manipulating symbolic math and know your electronics theory?It was my case! I assembled the simultaneous equation system correctly, but couldn't solve it in time for the variable required.If I had numeric values and a calculator, it wouldn't have been a problem.

author: RJSC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 02:02:02 am
content: I have to tell you this story an older EE who is really into electronics, not just for the safe career bet told me:It was 1957, the first Television Network (RTP) was starting in Portugal.German Engineers, along with the technicians from the company who sold the transmitters came to set-up the gear and make sure it was working ok. They went into the tower with the techs, and so did the electronics tinkerer/hobbyist car driver that drove the Portuguese Engineers to the site. He observed, and asked a lot of questions about how the system worked.The Portuguese Engineers stayed chatting outside the tower.When one of the transmitters first malfunctioned it was the curious car driver who fixed it, when the engineers couldn't!The established mentality around here is that an EE is only supposed to do paper/desk work and the techs do the all the prototyping, testing, troubleshooting and assembly.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 02:47:52 am
content: Quote from: RJSC on February 23, 2012, 01:35:15 amThat's an interesting example you picked there. I looked at that and fairly rapidly solved it in my head. It is cunningly contrived so that no simultaneous equations are required. (OK, I admit I did some of the arithmetic on paper when the arithmetic got messy. I don't trust my mental arithmetic that perfectly-- although it is good practice to exercise your brain by doing mental arithmetic as much as possible. Keeps the old neurons in good condition.)I was very surprised when I watched the video and saw him plugging equations into a graphical calculator. That's like being back in elementary school and being forced to do things the slow and laborious way because that's how the (bad) teacher told you to do it

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 02:55:22 am
content: Quote from: RJSC on February 23, 2012, 01:35:15 amYou may hate to hear this, but for me it is just the opposite. When I looked at that problem, it took just a few seconds of examining the diagram to see the algebraic solution. I could write it down almost immediately. After that, crunching the numbers becomes a longer and more tedious process...

author: RJSC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 02:59:33 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 23, 2012, 02:47:52 amThat was just one of the fist videos of EE exam solving I could find. Doesn't mean they all that simple...Also, I forgot to tell you, in here, not even the resistors have a numeric value (besides the voltages).Try to plug one equation into another when even the resistors are symbolic and you'll get an expression the size of a train to solve.However you can be at ease with maths, so you won't find it difficult anyway.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 03:21:47 am
content: Quote from: RJSC on February 23, 2012, 02:59:33 amI do not doubt they can be more complicated, but one thing about university exams is whatever you may think they are not really out to torture you. Whoever sets the exams wants to see if you understand the subject matter, they are not trying to test your puzzle solving ability.So taking the example in the video, you should first take a big look at the problem. Immediately you see there is no feedback from the second op amp to the first op amp. So you know each each one can be solved sequentially.Next you look at the first op amp and see separate bits of circuit. So they can be solved independently too.On the first op amp the non-inverting input sits in the middle of a voltage divider between +10 V and ground. So it must be at +5 V. If the op amp has negative feedback the inverting input must be at +5 V too. So the current in the 4 ohm resistor must be (12-5)/4 = 7/4 A. And this must flow through the 40 ohm resistor, giving a voltage drop of 7/4 x 40 = 70 V. Hence V01 is at 5-70 = -65 V. Oops, that is impossible, so we know that op amp is going to be saturated in part 2.Next the second op amp. Here we see that the current in R must be zero, so both sides of R must be at +4 V. Meaning V02 must be at +8 V by inspection of the voltage divider. Ah--it must be saturated too. If we know V01 and V02 we know the current in the 3 ohm resistor between them and we can solve the rest of the problem for the powers.After this we move to the second part of the problem by applying physical saturation limits. It's just a mechanical process looking at the first op amp and then the second.Now all of the above is "algebra". It can be seen in the mind's eye much quicker than it takes to write it all down like this. It's not that I'm at ease with maths (though I am), but rather all of the above description is the essence of what maths really is. It's about "seeing" what is really there and spotting patterns in what you see. I hope that makes sense. It may not come easily, but practice helps, as does working lots of examples.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 06:17:21 am
content: You are supposed to be able to do Algebra to that level when you start your first year at Uni!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 10:27:44 am
content: Quote from: RJSC on February 23, 2012, 01:35:15 amHere we go again. Life is not about fairness. Get used to it.You are there by your free will. You are no longer in school and are now an adult. Act as on. If you don't like it, walk out. If you think mechanical engineering is simpler, join mechanical engineering. Your life, your decision.QuoteIn reality, when you work as an engineer, you can't pick the complications. Things are as complicated as they are. And the problems you have to solve aren't fair, problems have no notation of fairness. They are what they are.And really, nothing in your example is complicated, and it if fare from excessive.QuoteAnd in real universities around the world they teach you principles, not how to work a calculator. Really, do you want to become a trained monkey, pushing given values into a calculator, or do you want to become an engineer?How do you think the component values in real-world circuits come up? They aren't given to the engineer by some higher being, to be punched into a calculator. They are calculated by the engineer, based on principles. Even if examples are given in a datasheet, you are well advised to calculate your own values and don't blindly trust the datasheet.Taking the example, you are still stuck with circuitanalysis. Figuring out what a given circuit does. The next step will be even more fun, circuitsynthesis. Given a problem, an empty piece of paper, and the task to device a circuit solving the problem. You can't do that with punching values into a calculator. What values do you want to punch in, the dimensions of the empty piece of paper? You start with circuits you know, and check if they have the properties you need to solve the problem. You can't do this checking if all you have ever seen from a circuit is a number, e.g. that the output voltage of a particular example is 0.42V. You need to know the properties of the circuit, embodied in equations.QuoteGood, they try to teach you not to become a number punching monkey.QuoteThen you were not fit to pass the exam. It is that simple. Study harder or walk out. It is your life.QuoteLetters give you all possible solutions, typically an infinite amount. A numeric solution gives you one stupid solution. Guess what is more flexible?QuoteOnly in your imagination. You have to device the circuit. You have to calculate it for multiple situations, e.g. taking errors, temperature drift, different available components, etc. into account, and of course changing requirements. And of course you are time restricted. The time supervision device is called called THE BOSS, and the time restriction device is called THE DEADLINE. Remember these terms very well. They will accompany through your whole engineering career. If you are self-employed substitute THE BOSS with THE CUSTOMER. No boss/customer in the world will tolerate a slow worker, constantly missing deadlines. And then it starts to jeopardize your life. No job, no money. No money, no fun. If you are unlucky, no money no wife, an empty fridge and no place to live.So you better quickly forget about your fantasy world of engineering.QuoteYes, you just failed an exam. In the real world you might be out of your job for failure to perform. Uni is harmless compared to the real world.QuoteBy the standards of your Uni, which I applaud, you failed, because you weren't up to the task. It is that simple, you didn't cut it. Again, study harder, or if you don't like to, or can't, walk out. Real life problems don't care if you are a pocket calculator wizard. Real life problems don't adapt to your abilities. But since you know so well how engineering should be taught, why don't you open your very own engineering school and train calculator punching monkeys?

author: RJSC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 11:09:38 am
content: The difference is the type of engineers who make the mistakes that started this topic don't fail the course.I've already passed at circuit analysis but failed the first time, however, at that time, I as able to design, make and deliver installed in time a control system for an erosion test machine, which automatically switches samples, regulates air pressure and erosion material flow rate from which I profited 600€ I used to start buying equipment for my home lab.I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who succeed that exam couldn't do it.So, I know what is to work.I chose EE, not because it's easier than anything else, but because I like electronics.I'm sorry if I do not share you love for maths.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 12:04:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 21, 2012, 10:51:15 pmA precise observation that is the same as i had/did See in the beginning of the 80s...I was 15 years old, but did get into electro engineering school because i`m a asperger (high functioning autism) so i was "predesignate by birth" to work with electronics.The other pupils was , due to demands to the competition and demand of study points, between 20 and 23. First year there was 2 classes, second year one.Why one You may ask.well, a lot of the students in the first year was there because it was a popular education, so they had good grades but no real interest in the subject, no practical experience in electronics and no real commitment to the practical work.So in the first 2 months there was a dropout of 4 of 48 pupils. simply because first practical assignment was to make a relay, from scratch with bare sheet metal, lacuerd wire on a spool, and given the tools and construction papers the did realise that this was not for them.They did just not show up a morning.One did disapir when he hold the warm end of a big soldering iron, it burnt itself stuck into hies hand while he was screaming hies lungs out.Next year we was one class of 18 devoted young people.I had already before i started engineering, build a powerfull AM transmitter, the tubes/coils cooled by my mothers new electrolux vacumcleaner motor (Oh by was my parents angry...) and been transmitting and effectively closed all national radio transmittions for a large area. Then the radioautorities came, then the police and i came in the newspapers , 14 year old,both "hero" and remorsefully sinner..

author: harnon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 02:54:11 pm
content: Nice story ErikAnother interesting side note - perhaps its more relevant to mech than ee - but the number of qualified+working+highly skilled engineers that I have spoken to that say "of course, I've haven't done that since uni, I've forgotten how". At some point I think experience/know-how/reuse/simulation starts to overtake the reliance on complex maths at least a little bit. Or rather, systems become so complex that for many modules you simply reuse or modify a known design, taking the previous mathematical grunt work for granted.As an example - take aerodynamics. You can learn all the thermofluid laws, principles, equations, etc (and you do!) but really the only way tosolveany realistically complex aerodynamic system is to use a computer simulation or preferably a wind tunnel. Now I agree that there is a difference between solving a system and understanding it, but in this case anyone who can operate a computer can build an accurate simulation / decent design without any maths at all. A lot of aerodynamic design is therefore iterative - dream up a shape, simulate, build, test, rinse, repeat.

author: Tube_Dude
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 02:55:13 pm
content: Quote from: RJSC on February 23, 2012, 12:36:46 amHi, RJSCWe are neighbors, I live in Aveiro too, and share all your opinions about the excessive weight of the Maths in Electronic Engineering.Anyway, I have studied in University of Coimbra, around 40 years ago...

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 03:08:12 pm
content: Quote from: harnon on February 23, 2012, 02:54:11 pmBut only those who understands the principles behind it can enter the right data, i.e. don't simulate the wrong things, can interpret the results, i.e. have a felling if something is just not right with the numbers. And have an idea what to change for the next iterative cycle.

author: Blofeld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 04:18:54 pm
content: Quote from: RJSC on February 23, 2012, 11:09:38 amOne day this control system you designed will be much more valuable to you than the 600€ you earned. Such practical success will open many doors to you when you have to apply for a job. Was this a "formal" task, with a written specification what your system was supposed to do, and a document that shows that you delivered it in time ? Otherwise you might want to think about how you will be able to prove your success a few years from now, this might really be important for your career.Nevertheless, all this will not help you much if you fail your exams because of problems with math

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 04:57:43 pm
content: It's funny to read this thread while being one of those EE students who has the brains to do the math but almost zero experience with the practical stuff. Before I started EE I never thought a second about electronics. Today, two and a half years later I'm really getting into it, and trying to start my own hobby projects at home for sake of fun and learning. I love electronics and I just want to learn, learn, learn. In my class there's this guy who's 20yrs older than I am, who's got tons of practical experience. I'm helping him to get through the math, and he teaches me the practical stuff. It’s great that he takes it on him to help a young student to grow into the “real world” of electronics outside EE studies. All outside college and in our free time. Hopefully when I’m graduating I will be one of the engineers who knows their stuff, not just theory.So if I may: all of you who are experienced through years of working with electronics, doing your own projects etc.: find those young students like me with love for electronics and help them to become really good experienced electronic engineers. So when we leave university we are already good at what we do since some masters took it upon them to teach us the real thing.But rant along already, flame shield is on

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 05:15:39 pm
content: Quote from: Christe4nM on February 23, 2012, 04:57:43 pmGuess why I sometimes take time to answer questions here? Not that it is a good use of my time, because most self-proclaimed 'enthusiastic' student's don't listen if the answer isn't what they expect. These days you can't even tell a student to have a look into his textbook, or use the damned multimeter, without causing a tantrum.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2012, 08:35:34 pm
content: When I as at uni (long time ago) I walked in on three classmates trying to get a guitar fuzz box (or something like) they had built working. Was just some discreets on proto-board powered from a 9v battery.They had a 6 foot long bit of wire coming from the board to a plug inserted in a mains socket on the wall. They told me the wire was connected to the plug earth pin and they did it because the circuit they built it from had an earth symbol on the battery 0v connection.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2012, 01:21:56 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on February 23, 2012, 10:27:44 amBRAVO!I don't always agree with you,but you have "hit the nail on the head" here.I have never scaled the dizzy heights of "Engineer-dom",but I had to learn Maths to that level to attain my own meagre "place in the sun"!

author: chscholz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2012, 02:43:49 am
content: I'd say the Mech eng's in the US have the hardest job, need to deal with lbs, inches, feet, slugs/in^2, kpsi, and such nonsense.Quote from: IanB on February 23, 2012, 12:54:15 am

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2012, 03:52:56 am
content: Quote from: chscholz on February 24, 2012, 02:43:49 amTrue dat. You really haven't lived until you have dealt with heat transfer coefficients in units of Btu/hr-ft²-°F...

author: harnon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2012, 08:37:58 am
content: Granted the US is very strange that way! I still giggle at English people though... Eg picture this conversatiomEngineer 1: how much aluminum do we need for the chassis?Engineer 2: oh about 100kg.E1: ok, and how much does our driver weigh?E2: 10 stone.E1:

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2012, 09:55:55 am
content: Quote from: harnon on February 24, 2012, 08:37:58 amPerhaps had NASA and Lockheed had such a conversation first, it might have prevented the fate of the Mars Climate Orbiter.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 06:32:48 pm
content: this guy sounds a bit like a snob. I know when I had a 9 in the morning lab I could not figure out what to fuck to do and wiring a lightbulb seemed like an impossible challenge. I spent 2 hours trouble shooting a circuit... it turned out that I was powering it with the adjustable voltage port instead of the fixed 5v port...Being in a crowded noisy lab in the morning with a college students sleep schedule always caused me a great deal of problems. I think that sometimes people just get in a mindset that makes problem solving next to impossible and time is the only cure.ORThey should give out amphetamines in morning classes.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 07:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: ftransform on May 24, 2012, 06:32:48 pmPart of growing up is stopping to come up with such excuses.Your Mom is no longer there, and she won't be there when you later have to work as an Engineer, sometimes in a noisy environment, always under time pressure, and at times your boss and the customers dictate.Hard student sleep schedule? Buhaaaa, cry me a river. What about drinking less and playing less computer games?QuoteYear, as if this would help ... After methylphenidate (MPH) junkies started to show up more often applying for an engineering job or an internship, I can now spot them from several miles away. It is often already their skin that does look strange. And they are nervous in a strange kind of way, more euphoric than really nervous to get the job. They don't get the job when I have a say. Because you can't rely on them.And don't give me that ADHD spiel. Most of the students turning to MPH or similar drugs weren't diagnosed with ADHD.They just were to lazy and stupid enough to turn to drugs. I don't want to work with lazy, stupid people.Those official diagnosed with ADHD? Well, we now have a generation finishing their studies who were diagnosed as kids at times when it was just fashionable to get an ADHD diagnosis. Doctors here liked to do a diagnosis in a few minutes, parents loved it. It was the quick way out for both. Maybe it is time to rethink if you want to continue using you ADHD diagnosis as an excuse so you can take MPH to "ease" your engineering studies.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 07:37:13 pm
content: I bet I could talk to you high on PCP and you could not tell buddy.Walking towards you would be the real challengeObviously you misunderstood what I had said. ADHD is not the same thing as being utterly unable to do anything in the morning due to extreme grogginess. Just because you are fine and dandy with a cup of java does not mean others are.Hell I have walked to classes from semesters past in the morning. Ever realize you are on the wrong side of town 5 minutes before your exams?I feel like some kind of confused drugged animal in the morning

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 07:46:01 pm
content: Quote from: ftransform on May 24, 2012, 07:37:13 pmSo you are already in that phase of a junkie' life where you need to increase the dosage to still get a kick out of it. Maybe you could slip through in the interview. You will sooner or later blow your cover when you admire yourself for the drugs you can take.

author: PbFoot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 08:38:24 pm
content: Well, I have always sucked at math. My math skills are limited to about a 11th grade level. My formal training was as a Flight Simulator Technician (that's maintaining flight simulators for training airline pilots), which involved all kinds of aviation, electronics and computing stuff. (My three favourite subjects.). I graduated with honours, achieving at least an "A" in all subjects, save C++, where I got a B.Most of the skill I have I would describe as systems troubleshooting. That is, how to determine where the problem lies, (mechanical, electronic or software) and solve it.When I need to use math, I have to rely heavily on software to solve the problem for me, or on someone else. This is why I will never be an EE. I do some circuit design and electronics for fun, but I will never come close to mastering the subject. I can solve simple electronics math, but it's strictly limited.I once thought I would learn to play guitar. I bought one, and took lessons. The instructor insisted that I learn to read music. I couldn't do it. I would practice daily, but I never got better. By the time the next lesson came, I still had not absorbed the last lesson. So, I quit, and gave away my guitar.I now realize that I would have enjoyed it a lot more if I had just used tabs. I never would have become a great guitar player, but I would have had fun. I feel the same way about hobby electronics.- PbFoot

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 08:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on May 24, 2012, 07:46:01 pmI am going to get hired by you one day. Expect me in a wheel chair, so you cannot detect my drug use through my wobbly steps.

author: bradleytron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 05:43:09 am
content: Quote from: RJSC on February 23, 2012, 12:36:46 amI think Universities today tend to place more emphasis on classroom teaching as opposed to laboratory, i.e., hands-on work, because they (administrations) look upon it in terms of costs, and running laboratories always costs a lot more money! In my view the Universities are operating as institutions for profit and the whole process has become too much like a factory/business. So I think that turning Universities into Corporations is a gigantic failure and this, in turn, reflects in the kind of students that are graduating.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 06:00:23 am
content: Quote from: bradleytron on May 25, 2012, 05:43:09 amI recall reading somewhere recently that at least a few university Presidents are paid bonuses based on attendance figures rather than quality of education/graduates produced. Definitely sounds like a business to me.But it seemed that way when I was in uni back in the early '90's as well.