Siglent SDS6054A vers SDS5035X - recommendation/opinion - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 12:44:26 pm
content: Dears EEVBlog fellows,I would like to start a pro/contra discussion which of the both mentioned devicesis a better investment for hobbyist purpose ;-)SDS6054A: (7711 Euro @ Batronix) (extendable by Hack to 1GHz BW)=========Sample rate:5 GSa/s (10 GSa/s ESR*1) @ each channel*1:ESR: Enhanced Sample Rate,gets bettermeasure accuracy by 2x interpolationImpedance:(1 MΩ ± 2%) || (20 pF ± 3 pF)50 Ω: 50 Ω ± 2%Max. Input voltage:1 MΩ ≤ 400 Vpk(DC + AC), DC ~ 10 kHz50 Ω ≤ 5 Vrms, ± 10V PeakSFDR:≥ 45dBc (13dB better then SDS5k!!!)CH to CHIsolation (@50Ω):70 dB up to 200 MHz60 dB up to 500 MHz50 dB up to 1 GHz40 dB up to 2 GHzBW (-3dB) @ 50Ω:500 MHzRise time@50Ω (typical):550 psSDS5035X: (5900 Euro @ Batronix) (extendable by Hack to 500MHz BW )=========Sample rate:5 GSa/s (interleaving mode),2.5 GSa/s (non-interleaving mode)Impedance:(1 MΩ±2%) || (16 pF±2 pF)50 Ω: 50 Ω±1%Max. Input voltage:1 MΩ ≤ 400 Vpk(DC + AC), (DC~10 kHz)50 Ω ≤ 5 Vrms, ±10 V PeakSFDR:≥ 32 dBcCH to CHDC ~Isolation (@50Ω):<100 MHz >40 dB100 MHz ~ BW: ≥34 dBBandwidth (-3dB) @50 Ω:350 MHz*Rise time@50 (typical):1.0 nsIf you compare both products you have to pay round 1.7kEuro morefor the 6k device but you will get a bigger screen, but less control buttons,(four channel version) a newer system design and many additional benefits,but is this fact really worth the price difference (you will save money to getan additional SDG6022X gen. if decide to take the SDS5k device)What is your opinion/advise when you would like to purchase such equipment?I will appreciate any helpful considerations addressed to this topic.Many thanks in advance.Markus

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 01:22:08 pm
content: For these prices you get a unit to test for a while before buying. This kind of money can also buy you a used DSO with a lot of bells and whistles. I'd consider that as well.

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 01:45:47 pm
content: @nctnico,Thanks for quick feedback.I would like a Siglent device and my favorites are the both mentioned b4.Markus

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 02:39:01 pm
content: What is your projected use of these devices?Do you need either of them? Maybe SDS2000X+ might be enough.?SDS6000A is much more capable device but if you don't plan to use all those features there might not be reason for you to buy one...Shared channel controls are not a problem.

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 03:07:58 pm
content: @2N3055FPGA signal/clock monitoring,eyepattern monitoring,serial protocol and LAN monitoring,up to and above 200Mbit/secas well as RT modultion monitoringof analog and digital patterns.That's the constrains of usage.By the way I already have the SDS2204Xscope (old design with AD's BF530 DSP inside).Markus

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 03:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: markus_jlrb on November 01, 2021, 03:07:58 pmThank you for the answer..For all that even a 2GHz version wouldn't be too much.. Your biggest problem will be probes and probing... For few things mentioned a high speed differential probe would be in order.. It will get expensive fast, for a hobby.Old SDS2000X has no commonality with new sds2000X+ (Plus). SDS2000X+ part of the new family of touchscreen scopes and shares common GUI platform with 5000X/6000A.Of course, it is limited in capabilities compared to those two.

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 03:47:31 pm
content: @2N3055,I'm full aware of the probe problematic and the factthat at higher frequencies activ/differantial probesare necessary.But for hobbyists purpose active probes could by madeDIY more or less.Some useful threads concerning this topics (probes) arelisted in this forum too in the past and it is still an interestingdiscussion to be continued.My point of interest is to decide if the new system design of thesds6k device is a better long term investment or should I savemoney to obtain a sds5k model, especially as the price willprobably drop as the new models become more known.How important is the difference of 13dB in the SDFR figure?(About ten times less noise without signal at the input?)Markus

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 04:38:05 pm
content: For your applications, I can only recommend the SDS6000A.To the best of my knowledge, it is the only one that has Signal Jitter and Eye Diagram analysis applications right now - and even this thing does not have a demodulation package and I cannot say if one is even in the planning anytime soon.SDS6000A has about twice the processing power, four math channels, 8 Mpts FFT, and all the goodies that were introduced with the SDS2000X Plus and that are still missing in the SDS5000 today: Resolution Enhancement up to 16 bits and vertical zoom.The SDS6000A goes up to 2 GHz @ 4 x 5 GSa/s and the hardware is identical for all models - but I don't know if it's already been hacked.The separate vertical controls are something that might have made sense on old analog scopes that just had their input channels and not much nore, but for a modern MSO the multiplexed control is much more consquent: You do not just control the input channels with it, but also the zoom channels, reference channels, math channels and digital channels. So you'd need 32 vertical controls to have them actually separated

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 04:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: markus_jlrb on November 01, 2021, 12:44:26 pmI would look at the proportional price difference, not the absolute difference. It's a fairly expensive device either way, but IMO the new 6000A seems to offer quite a bit more for 20% or so more money. I was not aware that hacks were available already as you've stated, but I'll take your word for it. Here are some observations:A 1GHz scope is quite an advance over a 500MHz model if you need that sort of bandwidth. From your list of planned activities, it appears that you might indeed make use of the bandwidth.I hadn't seen those SFDR figures before and I'm not sure exactly how and under what configuration they are determined (Hi-RES, ERES, ??) but it seems that the 6000A has a newer, more advanced front end and more capability to extend the dynamic range (by 8 bits) with a Hi-Res mode. The SDS2000X Plus lists SFDR as >40dB, even the SDS1104X-E bests the 5000 series at >35dB. For me, the low noise front end is a huge deal and I suspect it would be helpful for you as well.Shared channel controls don't bother me at all, but it drives other people up a wall. That's something for you to determine. Other than that, the feature set, controls and connectivity of the 6000A series looks outstanding.Anyway, I haven't seen the scope and it is a bit beyond what I need on a regular basis, so I can't really opine much beyond that.

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 05:22:25 pm
content: Many thanks for all the points mentioned concerning my question.Indeed it's a powerful argument to look for the new system designand his great benefits that are included.On the other side my budget is quite stressed by the device costand as already mentioned some additional equipment (active probes/logic probes) have to be purchased too to use the full BW that is availableand for the MSO features.Like buying my equipment before I tend to spent money on a previousmodel that decrease in price while a new model appear on the market.Could be an option to take a demo sds6k device from Siglent distributor.I had already done it for my both SDM3065X (with and without channelextension) that save me about 30% of the new price.But as the 6k model is a very new model just coming to market, it willtake a while until it will be offered under such conditions.So at this point I run in a mental conflict how to proceed to get the bestcost/performance ratio taking all thoughts into consideration.Has someone an opinion/knowledge how the sds5k fw development willprogress/evolve in the future (only bug-fixes or feature extension too).Any Siglent guys looking on this thread to answer this special question.Markus

author: techneut
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 05:40:51 pm
content: Unless I am very wrong You list the specs of a SDS5034X, Batronix price €3413.The price of €5901 is for a SDS5054X, 500 MHz, upgradeble to 1Ghz

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 06:04:00 pm
content: @techneut,you are right - sorry!I would like to compare both DSOs 500Mhz hackable to 1GHz.So the price was the right one but not the model name.SDS5054 vers SDS6054 (7711 vers 5900 Euro).According to my knowledge only the SDS505X could be modifiedby a hack to 1GHz not the 350MHz version.Markus

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 07:47:30 pm
content: Forgot to mention: the SFDR would be important indeed, and all these low figures below some 46 dB sound terrible.But then I have never run into a situation where the SFDR created a problem – with realistic expectations considering this is an 8 bit system.The noise floor is in the same ballpark for all modern Siglent oscilloscopes. Of course, an SDS6000A at full 2 GHz bandwidth will create twice as much noise compared to an SDS2354X Plus with the 500 MHz option at high sensitivities (below 5 mV/div). With the bandwidth limiters at 20 MHz and 200 MHz you get similar values though.But there is another aspect, and this is about the spurious signals, coming mostly from the ADC itself. In this regard, the SDS2000X Plus is exceptionally clean, whereas the SDS5000 might be the worst. This problem becomes obvious primarily at low sensitivities, where 100 mV/div, 1V/div and 10 V/div are the candidates for lowest frontend noise contribution, hence any spurs become all the more prominent.There’s a big question mark though. My sample of the SDS5000X is an early prototype, and the analog section has been reworked for the production models. I believe that these are significantly better than my sample. But even so I’ve measured a first order dynamic range of 49 dB from DC to 1 GHz. This is not the same as SFDR, which would require the measurement of the third order dynamic range, but INL of the ADCs in all the modern quality scopes is so amazingly good – because of the complex calibration of these ADCs – so that I just cannot believe that there should be a problem particularly with the SDS5000X.I have measured the third order dynamic range in an SDS1104X-E once, and the result was better than 60 dB @ 10 MHz. Of course, it could be slightly worse at different frequencies, but you get the idea.By the way, SFDR is measured in normal acquisition mode – no average, no ERES. After all, we need comparable data.Long story short – there might be some special conditions where the SFDR is actually rather low, but from my experience it is much better than specified in most practical situations, so usually nothing to worry too much about. And you would hardly ever run into trouble in Y-t mode – the main application where you want a high SFDR is the FFT.Yes, the SDS5000X has a different (cheaper) frontend for the 350 MHz model – my experience is only for an outdated 1GHz prototype as mentioned before.For your question about the future of the SDS5000: Siglent would be happy to scram (almost) all the features into every scope that shares the same platform (SDS2000X Plus, SDS5000X, SDS6000A). The only differentiators would then be screen size, interfaces, sample rate, memory length and bandwidth.Unfortunately, the resources in such an embedded instrument are limited. Many of the more advanced features require a lot of memory and if we don’t want to slow down to snail pace, we need a lot of hardware support (=FPGA resources) too. I’m afraid there aren’t too many resources left in the SDS5000X. We might still get a new small feature or two eventually, but probably nothing magnificent.

author: edigi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 08:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on November 01, 2021, 04:38:05 pmNot my budget (just like for the overwhelming majority of hobbyists) but the key question for this kind of hobby use is if the 500MHz model can be hacked all the way till 2GHz.There can be quite many tools (cost cutting measures) for Siglent to prevent this like although PCB shared, for example not all ADCs populated for the lowest model (2.5GSa/s if both channels assigned to the same ADC used; may require some extra RF switches but those are way more cheaper than the ADCs) or also a cheaper/less capable VGA is populated for the cheapest model and so on. Based on the official upgrade path/specs actually this latter seems to be the case (similar to SDS5kX) and until someone proves this to be different this has to be assumed...Also if SDS5054X is officially upgraded to 1GHz (I have some faint memory for such recent offer, I don't know if it's still valid) it makes this a tougher decision (as the hackability of the SDS6kA is a big question mark). Sure the SDS6kA being newer tech is a bit better in almost every corner but it also costs more and for hobby use fits to the budget (the real need) of few people.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 08:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: edigi on November 01, 2021, 08:33:32 pmNothing has to be assumed.Versions to be sold worldwide are all the same hardware, all have 4X5GS/s 5bit ADC, and they can all be upgraded to 2 GHz by buying software option from Siglent. Just read the datasheet. There is only one motherboard, populated exactly the same.Confusion comes from the never ending discussion about Chinese domestic only 12/10 bit versions that have different variants. Those are not going to be sold outside of China so no need to confuse anybody ...Valid datasheet in attachment.

author: edigi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 09:09:10 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 01, 2021, 08:55:19 pmIf there is confusion regarding this, it comes from the upgrade path description both Batronix and Siglent datasheet.I don't see a direct upgrade path from 500MHz to 2GHz.https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Oszilloskope/SDS6000A/SDS6000A_Datasheet_EN01A.pdf

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 09:17:24 pm
content: @2N3055,sorry to contradict, but according to Batronix page,see attachment, BW options offered only in the listedcategory. Is this wrong according to your knowledge?Markus

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 09:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: edigi on November 01, 2021, 09:09:10 pm2 step process = purchasing 2 BW upgrades.See Optional Accessories section:https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds6000a/BTW markus_jlrb, can you edit the thread title with correct model # which will help in later searches to find this thread. TIA.I did for this post.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 09:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: markus_jlrb on November 01, 2021, 09:17:24 pmYeah that is wrong . It should say UPGRADE to, not UPGRADEABLE.As Tautech says, you can buy both and apply them sequentially.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 10:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: markus_jlrb on November 01, 2021, 05:22:25 pmSame questions in my mind since I own a sds2k+....But:Siglent put until today some extra features in every fw-upgrade so far, not only bug-fixes.They´re also aware not to overpace the system performance, to sacrify it only for having all the fancy features.A marker of this could be the fact, that the sds2k+ and even the sds5k got only 2 mathchannels - which is uncommon while most of the other 4-channel scopes got at least one math per channel.Nevertheless, I would recommend the new series if you can afford it.It seems to have unlikely more "power" than the other touchscreen models before.The additional paying price for this is nothing against changing between models from lecroy, tek or keysight.By the way....With the 6000A they entering the "pro-zone" - maybe siglent will act like a pro in this case:We order our scopes directly from lecroy, with appx 30% off the listed price, the price we would pay at conrad electronic, R+S, mouser....Martin

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 10:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: markus_jlrb on November 01, 2021, 06:04:00 pmMaybe you're wrong...Regarding the SDS6000A be a no-step, 1 step or 2 steps to reach full BW, in the past 5000X and 2000X+ also had the same datasheets bla,bla and, in the end, all was possible. I think we'll have to wait and see with our own eyes.