Suicide shower head teardown - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:08:59 pm
content: I used to own two of these ...things... They are really crap and I never really trusted them. This was before I got into electronics, living with my parents so we didn't know much better. None of the two models that were installed had the earth wire installed by an electrician (due to the electricians own incompetence, we weren't being cheap or anything like that). Not that it would matter over time... look at the video. We no longer have those deathtraps. Good riddance. They did give the tingling sensation the guy describes.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:24:54 pm
content: I saw that this morning. It's horrible and makes me think I'm damn lucky to be a) not ignorant of such things and b) living in the UK which has more than half arsed electrical safety laws.(b) isn't strictly true but it's better than most places even if every damn electrician I've ever met is an incompetent cowboy.

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:29:11 pm
content: Incredible how many people actually survive after using this.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:31:34 pm
content: The thing that gets me is the bare copper earth wire. How would that survive hard water or even slightly corrosive water over time?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:39:47 pm
content: Trip the RCD Clive! They don't commonly have RCDs in countries which use these... The whole thing brings a shiver to my bones. Keep up the good work :-)

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on January 28, 2016, 01:39:47 pmInSoviet RussiaBrazil, you protect RCD!

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:43:52 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on January 28, 2016, 01:39:47 pmMy lab is the only residence that I know of that has RCD outlets in this country, apart from my uni's physics, electricity and chemistry labs. And I think, except for electrics, those RCDs came with the benches!

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:56:13 pm
content: Quote from: ivan747 on January 28, 2016, 01:43:52 pmSuch is the world. My brother in law in the Philippines is an Electrical Engineer, he has own company now designing and building systems for sub stations etc. Previously he worked for ABB and with my father in law (mechanical engineer) they tried to start a company to upgrade existing domestic installations with RCDs, needless to say there was no interest.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 05:12:39 pm
content: Was stuck under some of these down in Guatemala. They were exactly like that, no ground wire, and mostly-stripped romex twisted onto the ends. No insulation (Wire nuts? what are those?)If you reached your hand up too high above the showerhead you were liable to shunt full AC voltage through yourself.And yes, the tingling sensation is real. It is extremely unnerving, but countless other people use it without a problem... In a 3rd world country there are always much quicker and more likely ways to meet an untimely end.

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 06:13:43 pm
content: I haven't watched the video yet as I'm at work, and I will probably get shot for saying it... but there seems to be a bit of an exaggeration going on here...These, as some of you seem to know, are common here in Brazil. I shower twice a day using one similar to this, 220V nominal voltage. It's actually a "fancier" one with an electronic heat control, but overall same concept.1) I never felt any tingling. Maybe some of you are super sensitive...2)If properly earthed, I don't see how it would be more dangerous than any other equipment. And you know what (now I will get shot), even without earthing it's not like end of the world... it's not that low of an impedance between a shower sprinkling water 30 cm above you and ground for you to certainly get deadly zapped if a wire goes loose inside. Again, of course it should be properly earthed just like anything else, but a metal chassis of any other equipment (say, a fridge) could potentially be much more dangerous may a wire come loose inside it and the chassis is not earthed3) There are (or used to be) some with an isolated heater element - but they were less efficient and I think might have been discontinuedIt was mentioned below about the fact that the earth wire is made of copper and it would get crusty / corroded and not perform - that may be a problem indeed but I think most I have seem are actually aluminum or some other metal less bound to cause problems. The ones that seemed to be copper did show corrosion definitely, but I remember measuring its resistance once as I had the same thought and it was not noticeably higher (I made very light contact with the side of the probe to make sure I was not poking through the corrosion).I tried to find some info about deaths linked to these showers and couldn't find anything - that doesn't prove it's safe of course, but the fact these are broadly used here in Brazil and it doesn't seem to be that bad... corroborate my opinion it's not such a suicidal thing to shower in one of these. There are much easier ways to get electrocuted.So bottom line -if properly installed, I don't think these are any more dangerous than anything else really.

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 07:05:12 pm
content: You beat me to it, but I confirm what Vinicius said:In Brazil, this is the most common type of electric shower and I dare to say that the majority of them are not even earthed! At least I never saw one!I felt tingling a couple of times when touching ones with a metal case, so you quickly learn to not stretch yourself while bathing. I guess only plastic ones are fabricated now, so this probably helps the survivability rate.After marriage I moved to a building where each apartment has gas heating, so it's not a concern anymore, unless I'm staying with my parents.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 07:54:41 pm
content: The mechanical design us quite clever in some ways...But there also far too many options for failure!Not for me thanks.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 08:45:07 pm
content: Quote from: MrSlack on January 28, 2016, 01:40:48 pmIn Soviet Russia something like this would never had a chance to reach the customer BTW.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 28, 2016, 06:13:43 pmOr maybe you're a shortass who's far enough away that the water is now droplets (not conductive).How about tall people?Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 28, 2016, 06:13:43 pm"If"....If you watch the video the "earth" is just a bare copper wire in the stream of water. How long until it oxidizes over or gets covered in limescale?(And that assumes they even connected the earth wire).Other problems: A switch that will happily make contact on onlyoneof the incoming mains wires, possibly dumping the full live potential into the water stream.The 'earth' wire in the video was apparently covered in silicon sealant when he opened it up, no amount of correct installation would fix that.Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 28, 2016, 06:13:43 pm

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:30:47 pm
content: A bare heating element surrounded by water?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:41:44 pm
content: I consider this thing rather dangerous:As is, it will very likely not work together with a GFC/RCD. Making it work could be tricky though not totally impossibly.With just the live wire conected (e.g. cable failure, or just the shitty switch) the water is at life potential - so they really rely on the ground conncetion. So at the very least the switch should be only single pole and have a fixed polarity. At 5 kW it should not work with a standard outlet anyway - though I guess it is used this way sometimes. Having the short cables and thus the connections just at the shower is just a bad joke. There isn't even enough room in the tube for a good knot to connect the cables.The switch part does not look good too - if it fails to disconnect (e.g. overheated contacts) the whole system overheats up to the point of spitting boiling water and melting the whole thing over someones head. So it not only the electricity that is dangerous, but also high temperatures.So it looks like the chineese way of fighting overpopulation.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:46:18 pm
content: These things are produced by Lorenzetti, a Brazilian company.http://www.lorenzetti.com.br/pt/Detalhes_Produto.aspx?id=258http://www.lorenzetti.com.br/pt/https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=suicide+shower

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:57:16 pm
content: Surely that thing would trip an RCD/GDCI immediately! No wonder they don't use them!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 28, 2016, 06:13:43 pmRead some of the youtube comments. Yes there are those who haven't had any problems but people have been killed by these. It's quite possible many people die but the cause death isn't always correctly recorded.The most dangerous thing is if it's not earthed of the earth connection rusts, then if the neutral connection becomes corroded, you have the shower head live at mains potential and you'll get a nasty shock at the least.These wouldn't be allowed in the UK. In fact even an electric heater needs to be installed at a safe distance from water.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:58:12 pm
content: A couple of mates and I experienced one of these in an apartment in Rio. Exactly as described; twisted wire connections and everything. Adjusting the temperature caused rather exciting sparks. Not the good kind of exciting either.After much discussion about how to deal with the situation, and since we hadn't already died, we adjusted it until we were sure it was off and never touched it again. It was so bloody hot there anyway.Just one more story from an epic holiday.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:09:21 pm
content: Quote from: ivan747 on January 28, 2016, 01:31:34 pmI don't think it would be a major problem. A lot of the kitchen pots and pans used to be made of copper. Some still are. Gutters are also commonly made of copper in some places.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:34:12 pm
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 28, 2016, 06:13:43 pmThe only way I can think to properly install this is into a garbage bin.

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:35:50 pm
content: Well, yeah, I knew I would get shot... risk perception is very personal thing. I made all the observations about proper installation, and some simply assume it CAN NOT EVER be properly installed so those who use these on a daily basis are all doomed to die... and that the switch WILL fail with one side still connected as it can't be properly engineered of course (by the way it's the only equipment where a switch could fail), and the earth connection will corrode / get disconnected, and unlike all other things electrical, this is the only equipment where this live potential would then become "exposed" to touch.I won't attempt to convince anyone otherwise.Now excuse me, I will go take a shower so you probably you won't hear from me again(or the several million other Brazilians getting home from work at this moment and doing the same).

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:41:38 pm
content: Just one caveat though, as I hadn't watched the video (was at work) - the one in the video is definitely a lot worse than what we get here in Brazil. There are standards that mitigate some of the concerns regarding the internal switch, earthing, etc, and agencies that certify the products before they can be sold.Someone mentions in the comments that that one is a different version made for Chinese market... maybe it is, don't know about that.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:42:24 pm
content: Proper installation will limit the risk, but I would still use one hand on my hip and the other hand to adjust the temperature, never two hands.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:44:44 pm
content: vinicius.jlantunesHow do you call these shower heads? Is there a wikipedia article on that?

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:52:02 pm
content: Some tips from a pro traveller.http://johnnyvagabond.com/travel-tips/survive-suicide-shower/

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
content: @Hydrawerk: it's calledchuveiro elétricoin portuguese, or simplychuveiro.https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuveiro

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 11:25:37 pm
content: Thank you.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 11:33:21 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_heating#Electric_shower_heads

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 12:03:34 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on January 28, 2016, 10:42:24 pmAnd that will help you how exactly when you are standing in the wet shower? Or you get a stream of water at live potential over your head while standing there?"Suicide shower" is a pretty apt name for this thing.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:49:45 am
content: i would only trust something like that if there was a steam generator connected to the shower head designed in such a way that it was not possible for high pressure steam to get mepreferably a hot helium loop. i don't think i would want hot heatant dripping on me if it leaked too.

author: BurningTantalum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 04:39:04 am
content: Wraper- This type of unit is most certainly used in the ex-Soviet Union countries. I spent several years working there and used this type every day. They are popular because most cities have a community water heating plant which does not operate in the summer (and sometimes in the winter...)I prefered to buy a handful of the giant 'boiling sticks' in the market and drop them in the bath until it boiled, then switch off and remove before topping up with cold.My mechanical engineer got it all out of sequence one day and pulled them out before switching off- he had not a stitch on and was peppered with shrapnel, plus the hotel power tripped off.Ditto China (everywhere in the 90s, and probably still used away from the coastal wealthy zone) These were un-earthed metal, sometimes with feed wires hanging across from the wall which were bare wires with ceramic beads strung on for insulation. Horrifying !I survived, BT.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 05:42:00 am
content: Yes, I vividly remember one of these from my travels in Venezuela. Exposed wires feeding it, with wire nuts right next to the head, not in any sort of electrical box. I didn't actually get any sort of tingling or shock from it, but I really hated using that thing.The building did have circuit breakers, but of course no RCDs /GFCIs, whatever you want to call them. The circuit breakers were nailed in place on a piece of wood, not enclosed in a metal power distribution panel of any kind. In fact, they weren't enclosed at all. They were on the outside of the building; the only protection from the weather was that they were up high under the roof eave, so rain wouldn't directly fall on them unless there was wind.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 06:25:24 am
content: Code:It was mentioned below about the fact that the earth wire is made of copper and it would get crusty / corroded and not perform aluminum or some other metal less bound to cause problems .Code:The ones that - that may be a problem indeed but I think most I have seem are actually seemed to be copper did show corrosion definitelyYou too can use Galvanised steel rods with magnesium anode for avoiding the rust , the wear and tearhttp://www2.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/31000/FA31015/es_ES/ECT.pdf(Page E27)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 10:21:05 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on January 28, 2016, 10:09:21 pm...and you had to buff/polish them every time you used them if you wanted them to stay copper-colored.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 10:25:38 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on January 28, 2016, 11:33:21 pmInteresting. The original design was for an earthed, all-metal head. That would prevent a lot more death than a plastic one with a single 2cm piece of bare wire in the water stream.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 10:34:01 am
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 28, 2016, 11:25:07 pm"Chuva" is "rain" in Portuguese, so "chuveiro" means "rainer"."chuveiro elétrico" = "electric rainer".The more you know...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 10:40:58 am
content: Dream:Reality:They didn't even put the top cover back on this one, you can reach up and touch bare metal:

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 10:59:18 am
content: There is often a big difference between theory and practice.In theory, this shower is unacceptable as regards security.The regulations generally require a minimum distance between a water source and an electrical connection in a bathroom.There is also the problem of current leakage to ground through water pipes.But there is no electric leakage by the water flowing from the shower because water flow became drops in a few centimeters unless you puts your hand directly on the water outlet.Current is limited by water resistance to a low level.In practice, millions of such showers are used in Brazil and no electrocution has never been recorded.Indeed, in practice, several factors contribute to the lack of real danger.- in Brazil, the water tubes are PVC and thus insulating.- The shower is located above the person. If the person had an electric shock in his hand, the natural muscle contraction that happens when current flow causes contraction of the arm muscles, thus opening the circuit.- Power switch can't be actuated in working condition. You must choose the temperature before you use the shower.- The shower is made completely with insulating material.So, yes, it's dangerous in theory, but in practice it is an inexpensive solution that works well and does not cause accidents ...This is an excellent example of the brilliant Brazilian side who do not just just theory, but look for practical solutions.-

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 11:44:57 am
content: It doesn't seems the be enough statistics regarding causes of eletrocution in Brazil, so we are mostly talking about our own experience.The best data I could find while googling around is from Abracopel (Brazilian Association for Awareness of Eletricity Dangers - rough translation), and it's from 2014:http://abracopel.org/blog/numero-de-acidentes-com-eletricidade-em-2014-dao-um-salto/(in Portuguese)In brief, it reports a total of 822 electric shocks, with 627 deaths. The third graph shows that the majority of accidents happens at home (Residencia):and this table indicates the typical death causes:There were 3 cases reported when manipulating or fixing eletric showers, while 89 deaths while manipulating plugs, extenders or extension cords. If this makes any tourists coming to Brazil feel better or not, I can't say.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 12:01:54 pm
content: I think we're basically relying on:a) Water isn't very conductive.b) Water in showers comes in disconnected drops.So... you're probably not going to die if you're a reasonable distance from the shower head.A shortass like Dave is probably completely safe. Me? I'm 192cm (6'4") tall, I'll be very careful if I ever go to South America.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 12:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 29, 2016, 12:01:54 pmThe one in the video is specified for a maximum water conductivity, so they're definitely relying on that --- and I agree, plain tap water shouldn't be very conductive. There's a YouTube video of a crazy Iranian guy who shows this with mains and his own hand... I can't find it at the moment but I think it's been posted here before.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 12:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on January 29, 2016, 12:13:56 pmPlain tap water is very conductive. You can put to plates a few cm apart, connect to the mains and boil it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 12:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on January 29, 2016, 12:13:56 pmI was thinking of the same video when I typed that...

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 12:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 29, 2016, 12:01:54 pmThere are tall people around here and they don't die while taking showers. Just saying, not trying to convince you of anything - you think it's unsafe and I get that, it's fine.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 12:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 29, 2016, 12:41:32 pmI'm sure there's plenty of people who find a 50Hz tingle very invigorating in the morning.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 12:58:28 pm
content: I remembered this image...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:05:47 pm
content: Found it:I'll certainly be carrying an LED with be next time I travel.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:06:27 pm
content: Despite I have seen (and showered under) horrendous installations ofchuveiros, I can attest that, after I lived 32 years in Brazil, I was never zapped. I have felt that tingling sensation in houses with galvanized iron piping and non-existing earth (it used to be the majority of houses in Brazil), but the statistics shown are tremendously unfavourable to the common sense.Thechuveiroshown in the video used to be a common one sold in Brazil - typical from the brand Lorenzetti (in my poor days I had a very similar one) - some even fancier models used to be sold with insulated resistance.Regulatory agencies have made a number of improvements and IIRC modern houses require earth connections and RCD protection on the entrance circuit. Obviously that regulations don't trump idiocy by the electrician or the homeowner, but I have seen worst connections.Regarding the tall people comment, even shorter people raise their arms to rinse them... But the tap water conductivity varies a lot from place to place - in my home town I was only able to boil tap water (220Vac) from one or two mm apart.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:09:15 pm
content: Yes, this is the most commom shower around here. I run the risk to say almost all of them.To put the things right, a lot (a real lot) of homes, and companys (hotels included) doesn't have a proper earth installation, even if you see the green wire connected, that doesn't means a lot.In many, many cases, the people just don't connect the earth wire to anything, or connect it to the neutral wireAnd, yes, a very few people get electrocuted this way. The most dangerous moments are when you touch the shower to change the temperature or to change the resistence (when bad or broken).This do not make the thing better. They should get things done better. You doesn't get an option most of the time when buying this.I've saw pictures of some of the worst products (showers) even get melted...But anyway, it is much more dangerous to walk on streets here at night than touch a real live wire (read that with the psicho killer song on mind!)The majority of homes just don't follow any rules regarding projects, when the do, just the civil engineering. Not plumbing, electrical or any other.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:22:01 pm
content: You want crazy, when I was a kid I picked up a book of projects at the library, it had some neat stuff like making your own motor, and a generator with a water wheel to put in the sink or such. But one was pretty nuts. Cook a hot dog with 120VAC. It was a board, with 2 nails driven through a hot dog length apart. Then take an old lamp cord, and connect one wire to each nail. Stick a hot dog on it, then plug it in. Perfectly safe! I do wonder if the book had a version for countries that use higher voltages.

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on January 29, 2016, 01:22:01 pmEven crazier is that this was an actual product:http://blog.kevmo314.com/presto-hotdogger.html

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:43:05 pm
content: Yes, I forgot to add that - I later found out there were commercial models. Slightly safer - as long as you remembered to unplug it before adding or removing the hot dogs (though that one may have a cutoff switch when you lift the lid.....or not. Different times back then. The book probably did date from the 50's or early 60's, but it was the mid 70's when I read it.

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:48:21 pm
content: I remembered it because we had one when I was a kid, but my mom got rid of it after a few uses because the hot dogs tasted weird... Gee, I wonder why?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 02:33:39 pm
content: Sorry, we've veered way off topic here, but - nothing beats a good roller doggie!

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 03:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 29, 2016, 12:54:40 pmWe actually like 60 Hz tingles around here, even more invigorating! :-P

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 03:13:35 pm
content: I knew the UN was working on a population reduction program....I didn't think it was this diverse.What a piece of garbage.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 03:34:15 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on January 29, 2016, 03:13:35 pmBut that piece of garbage explains how thousands of Brazilians who live in poverty, with less than 200 bucks a month, managed to be perfectly clean and maintain a perfect hygiene.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 07:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on January 29, 2016, 03:34:15 pmSo I guess it's okay if a few of them die off every year from electrocution.

author: nrxnrx
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 07:37:27 pm
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 29, 2016, 03:02:37 pm110V may be tingly, but try that crap in 230V countries and it varies between it hurts like hell and you die. It's insane to accept that even at half voltage, considering how easily the (vital organ known as the) heart gets wonky.I'm pretty sure everybody here have a decent understanding of the risks. What angers me is that the great majority of the users of these will not be aware of them. I've witnessed my mother getting downright dangerous products because they were "cheap"*. I'm grateful that she normally calls me to fix and fit things.When your product has 0.01% chance of killing the user, it means that for of 10000 sales, you kill a person! (on average).While some dangers cannot be avoided (within reason, "impulsive people" will allways get their hands in the blades).--Mihai* I'm not putting that full-stop inside the quote.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 07:46:24 pm
content: Quote from: nrxnrx on January 29, 2016, 07:37:27 pmvinicius.jlantunes location says Brazil, where they most likely use 220V for heating appliances, such as showers. Just because it's 60Hz, rather than 50Hz, don't assume it's 120V not 220V.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country#Table_of_mains_voltages_and_frequencies

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 08:15:34 pm
content: Yeah as Hero999 points out, some states here in Brazil have 127V phase to neutral / 220V phase to phase, and some have 220V/380V - all 60 Hz. There is this theory that it has to do with the origins of the companies that drove the electrification efforts - German companies tended to use 220ish, american companies tended to use 110ish.Where I live it's 127V/220V, and more powerful appliances are typically wired at 220V for obvious reasons.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 08:23:27 pm
content: I was just watching Clive's video and decided to view some more... jeez... who thought running shower heads off mains voltage was a good idea?!?!Then I realized I'm sitting here in my apartment that was built in the late fifties and it hasn't got an RCD! Oh yeah, and this is supposed to be a developed country with regulations up to the hilt...Surprisingly it does have earthing wires running to all sockets, which wasn't all that common until it became mandatory for new constructions and renovations in (I believe) 1996.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 08:33:15 pm
content: My house had wax and cotton insulation on some of the wiring when I moved in this year. Had to rip it all out. Total mess. Someone had just whacked a consumer unit in and ticked a box somewhere.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 08:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on January 29, 2016, 07:13:18 pmBad installation of the shower is not a problem of the product, only stupidity of the user/installer.As it is made and correctly installed, it can't kill nobody.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 08:42:00 pm
content: My guess is that authorities over here would think otherwise...Those shower heads wouldn't stand a chance of being allowed here.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 09:25:24 pm
content: http://www.liveinbrazil.org/electricity-in-brazil-220v-or-110v-when-travelling/

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 10:10:41 pm
content: Clearly not an optimum design for safety, but also is clearly an absolute failure as an execution device. It is actually a wonderful thing in most ways that our lives have become so risk free that something like this is actually a subject of horror. But this obsession with safety is one reason the western world has essentially no manned space capability now. Someone who wouldn't risk one of these shower heads couldn't possibly be launched in any space vehicle because even the best of them (the Suyoz) has a better than 1 in 1000 chance of killing you.

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 10:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 29, 2016, 10:10:41 pmA bit of a red herring... manned space travel is a complicated and dangerous endeavor, whereas taking a shower shouldn't be either of those things.My big problem with this gadget is that it relies on proper installation and/or a combination of fortuitous events to be safe.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 10:39:16 pm
content: We've only seen statistics for "death".No numbers at all for "the shower really woke me up today!"

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 11:18:36 pm
content: In hot regions like most of brazil I would have expected to see more solar power, even if just a hose on the roof to warm up the water. Even if not that hot, I would prefer this over such an electric death trap. Also electricity usually is not cheap.If properly installed and all intact the device is resonabley safe, especially at 2x127V. But once the earth ground is missing or a broken case it can get dangerous and the short cables are just plain stupid. The other thing i don't like is that it will hardly work with a RCD/GFI. Especially with poor appliances a RCD could save quite some lives.It also denpends on what you are used to: Coming from europe to the US, I was also somewhat horrified by the US power plugs and extension cords, while US persons usually have a bad feeling about 400 V 3 Phase outlets, which is no problem in europe.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 11:36:24 pm
content: Those US two prong ones scare the crap out of me coming from the UK. Managed a set fire to half a wall with one in Nevada once. Every time I've been to the US it has scared me in one way or another.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 11:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: 1xrtt on January 29, 2016, 11:44:57 amso thats about 2 deaths per year per million population.As far as I can tell Austalia is not doing much better. Maybe about 1 per per year per million population.http://www.ncis.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/NCIS-FACT-SHEET-Electrocution-related-deaths-final.pdfapparently of the unintentional deaths 96% are men!

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 11:48:32 pm
content: Seeing this made me think that maybe divorce was not legal in Brazil.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 12:22:07 am
content: my physics teacher in high school would make 120VAC hotdogs. I thought it was a cool experiment.So long you are not an idiot I don't think its too dangerous, so long you only energize the circuit when you stand far away from it . I think he had a two man rule with it, so another physics teacher had to be in the room when it was out.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 12:59:14 am
content: I see all the horrified responses from Australians... Have you forgotten the type of electric kettle you used to have before the modern sealed element type?Flick through the photos on this auction...http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0034-3127463/artworks-and-antiques/retro-electric-kettle-by-npa-with-bakelite-lid-australia-c-1950Some of them didn't have a resistor element, just a couple of closely-spaced plates. They depended on the conductivity of the water.The auction says 50s vintage, but the type was still common in the 80s.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 01:00:30 am
content: Warm your food with electrified spoons and forks.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 01:41:27 am
content: In Brazil, the true risks are not electrical showers :A report on violence in Brazil says around42,000people were shot dead in 2012http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-32747175And whe are speaking here of3people electrocuted dead in 2014 "manuseando ou concertando", this means using orrepairingthis kind of shower....Don't you think the tittle of this topic is almost stupid ?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 02:10:39 am
content: Quote from: MagicSmoker on January 29, 2016, 10:28:53 pmTaking a shower isn't complicated, but it is relatively dangerous. Check statistics for slips and falls. Not too many deaths, but we are talking about 3 from the shower heads in brazil. Maybe we should be reacting in horror at the idea that there is slippery soap and (gasp) water in showers?The comments above about Americans horrified at European mains voltages, and Europeans horrified by American two prong wiring point out that perceptions of danger are far more powerful than the reality.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 07:09:14 am
content: Quote from: Don Hills on January 30, 2016, 12:59:14 amI've been around a very long time & I've never seen the "couple of close spaced plates" type.The other type was ,indeed,common.Several points:-(1) As long as the lid was down,you had no access to the water or the element-----none of the ones I saw (hundreds) would allow insertion of the power plug into the kettle body without the lid being closed.(Of course,if the lid is broken,or removed,all bets are off,as you could then touch the connections to the element.)(2) Australian power points (GPOs) are all switched,so it was normal practice to turn them off as soon as the kettle boiled.(3) Youcouldpull the plug out of the jug while it was still switched "ON",and possibly "zap" yourself,if you weren't careful.(The kettle plugs were a lot crappier than IEC ones,& having them come apart in your hand was a more likely shock cause than via the hot water.)Compared to the so-called "cordless" ones common today,which present Mains voltages at the "base" unit,and rely on a bit of flimsy bent metal to disconnect Active if the kettle is removed (if the factory in the PRC didn't get it wrong),these old beasts come out quite well.Back in the late 1950s,the normal type of Instantaneous Electric HWS was either a 3 phase box mounted in the roof,or a single phase one on the wall (in the bathroom) with Earthed metal piping to the shower head,Around that time,there was a big sales push in West Oz to sell similar devices to that in the OP's posting,except they were all metal.They just seemed to disappear off the market----whether the State Electricity Commission "lowered the boom" or they just weren't popular,I don't know.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 09:27:36 am
content: Talking about the safety of plugs and sockets...Looking at our own power plugs and sockets (1 and 1a), they are called "Schuko" (but most over here wouldn't know that name) and are pretty common in continental Northern Europe, but I've also seen them in the Costa del Sol (Southern Spain). They are pretty sturdy, but the French variant (1b) is even better because in that version the earthing springs in the socket are replaced with a decent and strong pin. Plugs can either be Schuko or French or a hybrid as in image 1.I think I would vote for the French version if they were ever to be standardized across Europe. IMHO they are the best compromise between safety and size. Arguably the British plugs are better because L and N are in fixed positions, but they are enormous. Schukos can be plugged in either way (and sockets are usually wired randomly for L and N). I don't know about the French verison, but theoretically it could be made to have L and N in fixed positions.The handy thing about the Schuko is that angled plugs can be reversed so that they don't clash with a neighbour.These sockets are usually unswitched and capably of 16 A. Unplugging a powered device could create a spark, but because of the deep recess (> 1 cm on the Schuko, don't know about the French version) that doesn't present a problem.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 09:59:37 am
content: I've never seen one of these shower heads here in Italy, but I believe the reason is that standard home electrical supply is limited to 3 kW. That heater will trip the main current limiter.Regarding old dangerous equipment, in my younger ages I've seen or used a lot of them, but then people (like my grand mother) were a lot more cautious with electricity.. Not like me: I liked to plug steel wool inside the socket, to see it bursting into flames, the only insulation was provided by a wooden stick (I discovered the need for insulation the hard way).Best regards

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:22:14 am
content: Quote from: jitter on January 30, 2016, 09:27:36 amI lived in countries which was using Schuko, now the French one. Schuko is better than the French. You dont need to check orientation when plugging in and it is more solid when plugged in. Also the French makes a mess with the plug packs and 90 degrees connectors.The shower head... I guess I would take a shower sitting down.Quote from: Kleinstein on January 29, 2016, 11:18:36 pmI've noticed that less developed countries tend to chose the less initial cost, when choosing a solution. A solar powered water heater would probably pay back in half a decade, but they choose the cheaper solution, and then they complain that they have no money. I think it has to do with financial education, so not really their fault.I've talked to people in east Europe, living in not insulated house. They payed 4-5x the heating bill they should have. Insulating would pay back in 3 years. But they dont do it, because they have "no money" to make it. And loan is from the evil. Makes you wonder if life really is just about survival for these people?

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 11:41:54 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 30, 2016, 10:22:14 amWell, okay, then my vote goes for the Schuko after all... I was under the impression that the earth pin would be a more solid connection because I've seen those earth springs pushed in the socket and folded over sometimes, but that's not common, and you always have two springs. Perhaps the French version isn't as deeply recessed and that's why the Schuko feels more solid.QuoteYeah, the droplet separation then becomes the isolation between you and the electrified heating element, but still...

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 01:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 28, 2016, 06:13:43 pmYes, when properly installed. The problem is you often can't find proper electricians (or any kind of technician) a lot of the time in countries like mine.The third time an electrician came to service the shower heads, I tried to ask him about grounding. He didn't have much of a clue, he thought you could ground stuff to any metal piece that came into contact with the concrete in the house, for example, the metal chassis on which we mount switches and light bulb sickets (I don't know the name in english).By the way, he was called because of a smell when the shower operated. Turns out the power wires that were installed with back electrical tape corroded over time and heated so much that the insulation was charred inside the tape.I've found that the good carpenters, electricians, plumbers, metalworkers, mechanics and house painters are always very busy, but it's worth the wait.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 01:13:47 pm
content: I do think this would be perfectly fine if:a) It had a better design for the grounding points, resistant to corrosion.b) Grounding is ALWAYS usedc) RCDs were mandatory in every fixture that that is less than 2 meters away from a source of water.One problem is that people aren't aware of grounding and the dangers of not grounding things. The real problem is that electricians don't know either, or don't care.This would also be perfectly fine if:d) If the installation of such devices had to be carried out by certified electricians (keep dreaming, Ivan). Ideally, they could only be sold with a "prescription", sort of like medicine and the certification for electricians would be strict.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 01:19:52 pm
content: Oh oh! I just remembered that about a year before switching to gas I had the showers earthed, or at least the one in the bathroom I use. The tingling went away. Earthing wasn't that great really, just the wires twisted together. Twist-on wire nuts were added later by me if I remember correctly. Still not ideal but much better anyway. Well, anyway, good riddance.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 01:54:41 pm
content: This kind of shower head simply defies common sense.For one thing you don't expose bare wires carrying current to water, there is an ion exchange that goes on and the wires get eaten up, even the NI-Chrome wires.This is stupid on so many levels I cannot comprehend why this crap would be allowed.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 02:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: AG6QR on January 29, 2016, 05:42:00 amI've seen some bad ones but this one's the worst I have ever heard of.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 02:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on January 29, 2016, 10:59:18 amYes it can :p It's a bit harder but it's possible. And that's in one of the Lorenzetti models that look like the one in the video.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 02:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: sarepairman2 on January 30, 2016, 12:22:07 amIf you do it to a pickle they light up! (as in "light", not "fire")https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=glowing+pickle&tbm=isch

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 05:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 30, 2016, 02:10:39 amI agree with you, said it before in this thread as well. Risk perception is personal. That's why I make my observations that I don't think this shower is unsafe, but don't try to convince anyone who disagrees.I travel to the US frequently for work, and I feel just as horrified by people eating fried chicken out ofbuckets(cause plates aren't deep enough!) and drinking soda also from buckets, carrying 100 pounds asses around. I mean, don't they see the risks of obesity and junk food? And hearth diseases are the number 1 cause of death in this planet! How are those things allowed to be sold right?Of course people will argue that "well it's your choice to eat that way", etc. Well, it's also your choice to install your shower properly, or just use a different type altogether. The parallels are many.But hey, they think it's fine and feed their children sugar, just like I shower my daughter in one of these death machines every day and think it's also fine... in the end we just choose to be exposed to different risks I guess.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 05:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: ivan747 on January 30, 2016, 02:19:43 pmBut this, most Brazilians do not.And there's a good reason for this: the previous models were full metal and almost never grounded, not only negligent, but also because the resistance was damaged very quickly if grounded.With all-metal showers, we really took a violent electric shock if touched the shower or the switch in operation.Then the Brazilians learned not to change the temperature in operation although with showers entirely of plastic, it does not takes any electrical shock.In addition, the switch breaking capacity is reduced and should not be operated manually on load.I think this is mentioned in the user manual.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 05:43:48 pm
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 30, 2016, 05:28:05 pmWell, I guess you're right.One could also argue that sugar and chocolate are actually substances one can become addicted to (and don't forget cafeine), and yet they're legal. I've also heard arguments that marihuana is a more benign substance than alcohol and yet it's alcohol that is legal when you're 18 or older.Most of us choose to travel by car which certainly isn't the safest mode of transportation around. So yeah, over here, no one who knows how the suicide shower works would even think about using it and yet they would happily step into a car and hurtle along the motorway at 130 km/h only a couple of meters away from other traffic moving at more or less the same speed...Crazy if you ask me, but I do it too...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 05:55:47 pm
content: If you go through the mortality tables it is obvious that the things people worry about are not the top elements on the list. While I am sure that the danger list varies around the world, and I am also sure that the worry list also varies around the world, I am quite sure that the correlation between the two lists is low worldwide.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 05:59:11 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on January 30, 2016, 01:54:41 pmYour position resembles that Marie Antoinette who was told that the peasants had no bread, and who responded: "Let them eat brioche."Those showers are a cheap solution that work very well and kill nobody.This is the reality, there are millions of showers of this type in operation in Brazil.Millions of people in Brazil have no financial means to pay for something better.How can someone who lives in the USA, who has never lived in poverty, can judge what is happening in another country where living conditions are totally different?In the US, you can buy guns very easily, this for us is a much more serious insecurity than this shower ...Guns causes many more deaths than this shower.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 08:27:19 pm
content: Regarding the statistics: what's to say they're reliable? I doubt they're well recorded at all.It's likely that shocks from these showers might not directly kill the person but they could cause them to slip and fall, resulting in severe injury/death.Risks are a part of everyday life but it's crazy when they're unnecessary and can be mitigated so easily.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 08:41:04 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 30, 2016, 05:55:47 pmCertainly it varies. I will never forget a remark made by Jeremy Clarkson on a Top Gear special in India. In it he says that the amount of traffic in India is roughly twice that of the UK and that one would expect to see double the amount of deaths. He then goes on to explain that that is not the case. Ik the UK about 3000 people a year die in traffic, in India it's a staggering 196,000 (i.e. 22 per hour)...Found that fragment:Watch the fragment and the scary madness of Indian traffic... and then imagine feeling the same stepping under a suicide shower...

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 08:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on January 30, 2016, 08:27:19 pmWith the older metal shower, you may receive an electric shock if the metal case was not grounded.That's happens several times with me but I never fall or slip for this reason.As I said, the contraction of the arm muscles don't let you in contact with the shower and current is interrupted.With the all plastic shower, no conducting parts can be reach and there is no risk of electric shock...Perhaps if you take a shower with salt water....Measuring resistance between a metal case shower and water falling (tap water) :- at 10 cm from the shower, resistance infinite. (no current at all in the body)- at 5 cm from the shower, more or less 300K. (more or less 0.5mA current for 130Vac phase/ground)

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 09:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on January 30, 2016, 08:27:19 pmConsidering these statistics are the only one I could find, I agree that we should read them with a bit of skepticism. If anyone can find more reliable sources, I'm all for it.However, take them out and what we have left? Our own assumptions and anedoctal evidence. I'm even more skeptic on those.I don't believe the design of device in itself is unsafe. Changing the shower head for a different design? There are other options, like solar heating and gas heating, but those are expensive and not practical on the vast majority of the country.The only practical mitigation would be to do a correct installation, with proper wiring, connections and earthing. Also, consider that what most of people in this forum call "earth connection" is not a common practice in many households here. I'm not a certified electrician, but what I see most do is to attach neutral and ground together and call it a day. This is described in the Brazilian Norm NBR5410:http://www.iar.unicamp.br/lab/luz/ld/normas%20e%20relat%F3rios/NRs/nbr_5410.pdfGoogle translation of page 15, Chapter 4.2.2.2.1:scheme TNThe TN system has one point directly grounded the power, and the masses connected to thispoint through conductive protection. Are considered variants three TN system, according toprovision of neutral conductor and protective conductor, namely:a) S-TN scheme in which the neutral conductor and the protective conductor are distinguished (figure 1);b) TN-C-S system, in part of which the neutral and protection functions are combined into a singleconductor (figure 2);c) TN-C scheme, in which the neutral and protection functions are combined in a single conductor, inentire scheme (Figure 3).

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 09:42:13 pm
content: You know how when you stand on set concrete in bare feet, it's a bad idea to grab a live mains wire? That's because the concrete and water earth one end of you. And electricy has nowhere else to go but through you, even though you are a terrible conductor. Well this is completely different.In the shower, presumably your feet are not well grounded, because you are standing on ceramic or plastic tile/tub, or whatnot. And once you're wet, there is an alternate path over the surface of your skin that should be much more conductive than your body. So any shock could be more of a wakeup call than an electrocution. As is apparently the case:QuoteSo as uncomfortable as it might make you, at first glance, there's a reason that these are so popular. And I don't think it's because if you're poor enough you would rather die than take a cold shower.I think the worst thing you could do it to reach up and touch the device with one hand while touching a grounded knob/pipe with the other. In this case, hopefully you are really wet and lathered up, and have good reflexes. I wonder if they teach kids on how to shower in Brazilian schools?FWIW, anyone that uses a laminator to make pcb's is taking a walk on the wild side. The metal rollers are in contact with fairly low impedance mains. And when you put the board in, it's live. Wear your shoes when doing this.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 09:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on January 30, 2016, 08:43:38 pmMay I ask how old are you & where do you live? You seem like quite an experienced older chap.Were those resistance measurements taken with a normal multimeter or using a high voltage? If you watch the video, he found the resistance of water decreased a lot at mains voltages, compared to the value indicated on his multimeter.

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: 1xrtt on January 30, 2016, 09:28:40 pmOh, there is no question that the design of this thing is unsafe.But simply replacing the bare resistance wire that is directly immersed in the water stream with a conventional insulated water heating element would go a long way to making this safer (both greatly reducing the potential shock hazard as well as electrolytic corrosion of the heating element).And yes, I saw the post earlier whining about how this was tried but it didn't heat the water as efficiently... What a load of crap - just design the thing so that the water spends more time in contact with the heating element. I mean, really... This is not rocket science, people.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 10:18:56 pm
content: Yes, the bear element is unsafe. If it breaks then a good earth connection is all that's protecting you from a nasty shock.There's also no thermal fuse, so if that crappy pressure sensitive switch fails in the on position, it will catch fire when the water stops flowing.In addition to a closed element, a thermal fuse and bi-metal strip are needed for fire protection.Electric showers exist here in the UK but the heating element is inside a water tight enclosure, the exposed metal surfaces are properly earthed and a thermal fuse protects against fire.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 11:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 30, 2016, 07:09:14 amI used to travel to Aus a lot in the 80s, stayed in hotels and serviced apartments. I saw the plate type a couple of times. Two square plates, dome shaped with central holes, separated by ceramic spacers.QuoteApparently removing the lid was not unknown, especially for the practice of "hotting the pot" (preheating the teapot) by placing it on the open kettle. OK for a china teapot, but I remember an anecdote in an Electronics Australia magazine, where the author was visiting an office where he heard a juicy "splat" followed by a feminine squeal. Apparently the typists were brewing the morning cuppa, and placed the aluminium teapot on top of the lidless kettle at just the wrong angle...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 01:29:03 am
content: Quote from: Don Hills on January 30, 2016, 11:59:38 pmIt may have been an '80s thing----that was the decade when the "everything Australian is bad---everything from Overseas is good" meme first took hold,with consequent loosening of standards.They could have been a special job lot for the hotel chains,but were never contemporary with the kettles shown in your link,which were more of a '50s/'60s thing.By the 1980s,insulated element kettles were starting to make inroads into the market.I certainly never saw the dual plate units either for sale or in service.QuoteI remember that article----I always thought it would be hard to balance a teapot on the ones I knew,because of their shape (we used to call them "electric jugs")"Hotting the pot" was always a silly idea,& went the way of the Dodo with the introduction of teabags,& the change by many to Coffee drinking.Oddly,the only places I ever saw kettles without lids were in some small businesses I visited.I never saw a lidless one in anyone's home.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 07:48:05 am
content: In case of electric shock, current must be higher than 30mA to be dangerous or even lethal.With those old metalic showers, this current was not reached because they were only 130V (130V - neutral) and there still exist a current limiting resistor made by water between phase and metalic case.@Hero999:QuoteResistivity of water changing with voltage ? Never heard that water should have such behaviour !The infinite resistance at 10cm from the shower shows that it became droplets and that there is no electric shock possible by falling water at this distance.It has been measured between the metalic case of the shower and a metalic plate placed under the shower.QuoteThe automatic pressure switch is very simple and very secure as the most commun failure is rupture of the rubber pressure disk. In this case, the switch remains open. No risk of fire at all.Even if the shower would catch fire, this is not that dangerous because there is nothing updown the shower in a badroom that could also catch fire.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 08:31:13 am
content: Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 07:48:05 amIf you're so sure then just go and wee on the power line of an electric train, as long as your more than 5cm away you should be fine.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 09:24:09 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on January 31, 2016, 08:31:13 amPower line of an electric train refering to ground:France: 25KV 50HzGermany - Swiss: 15KV 16h2/3Belgium - Russia: 3000V dcHolland: 1500V dcNB: need to login (+ 18a)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 09:36:26 am
content: Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 07:48:05 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shockNo, Your resistance changes with the voltage. While with low voltages it is 3Kohm, at 220V it becomes 1.2K. Think of a bunch of triacs which start conducting at higher voltage.It looks very dangerous. But now I remember, I used to use something like this when I was young and capitalisms was young. God bless Comecon... not.Usually installed in kitchens of motels and such. Now, wonder, how safe that thing is?This is what they have inside:And the heating element has ceramic insulation to the water. And an electronic controller. And proper grounding, and proper terminal blocks. It costs 60 EUR, now, in the EU, with all the safety requirements!So please, shower manufacturers: Are you kidding me? Zero effort for safety?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 09:48:58 am
content: Please read my post with more care...I am speaking about water resistivity (in ac because in dc you have an electrolyse effect) , nothing to do with resistance of human body.I did not even take in consideration the human body resistance, only the resistance of the water.60 euros, that's what a lot of people in Brazil have to live the whole month !Distilled water is almost an insulator and water with low ionic salts as tap water is a poor electrical conductor

author: nrxnrx
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 02:47:53 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 09:48:58 amShocks can be fatal even if you don't die right away. I think I recently saw a post on this forum of someone saying they had arrhythmia until the next day (which fixed itself just before a "manual reset" was tried). Most of my information is anecdotal, so I may be very wrongAt least this thing will never become very old. Someone will stop the water before the showerhead at some point. I wonder how long it takes for 5kW to set it on fire, though the heater may have a weak point* which would melt and keep it an electrical hazard only.--Mihai* not a reliable thermal fuse by any means, but it's the kind of zero-cost addition that may help the designers sleep at night

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 03:19:51 pm
content: QuoteI only know 2 ways an electric shock kan kill you: ventricular fibrillation and burning injuries.The first stop the blood circulation and cerebral dead occur in several minutes.The second one depends of the extend of injuries.In the electric chair, brain is cooked in a few seconds.You need a current greater than 30 mA for alternating current be fatal.

author: nrxnrx
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 03:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 03:19:51 pmMy information on this is anecdotal, but google shows me stuff like this:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC427385/QuoteNot across the heart. Wikipedia suggests less than 1mA can kill you. It's not the best source, but there's also a mythbusters episode where they (wrongly!) measured such currents which agrees with meI would really like more information on how I and others may die, so if anybody has some information on this, please post!

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2016, 04:24:52 pm
content: QuoteThat's not what Wikipedia say:"If the current has adirect pathway to the heart (e.g., via a cardiac catheter or other kind of electrode), a much lower current of less than 1 mA (AC or DC) can cause fibrillation."Nothing to do with electrocution by a shower !Nb: this kind of electrical shower has been projected and studied by brazilian electrical engineers.http://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&ved=0ahUKEwjSnb7txNTKAhVBVRoKHQW3CI8QFghfMAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teses.usp.br%2Fteses%2Fdisponiveis%2F3%2F3143%2Ftde-08122006-150201%2Fpublico%2FDissertacao_Claudio_versao_revisada.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE8uPkKPfxD8LOKzbAFUj2dA21cbg&bvm=bv.113034660,d.bGgIt complies also with all brazilians regulations and standards for low voltage electric installationsNB: price of this electric shower: only 10 bucks !

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 04:25:04 am
content: Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 09:48:58 amTry to do that fancy heater with12 Euros, which is what costs a similarchuveirolikethis one.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:48:10 am
content: Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 03:19:51 pmNonsense.30mA can easily kill. Whether a current is lethal or not depends on a number of factors including the age, health and gender of the person, the path the current takes and how long it lasts for.30mA was chosen as a trip point for RCDs because it's highly unlikely a short term exposure would result in any harm. It's also a balance between being safe and nuisance tripping.Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 09:48:58 amTap water is not de-ionised and its conductivity varies with voltage, as with most non-metals. This was mentioned in the video, if you care to watch.Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 07:48:05 amIn this case, the most common failure mode may be off but switch can and do fail in the closed position and in a humid environment such as a shower head this is more likely than where it's dry.Thermal fuses don't cost much and if the cheap arse manufacture doesn't fit them they have no respect for the user's life or property.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:23:10 am
content: Quote from: nrxnrx on January 31, 2016, 02:47:53 pmIf it starts smoking, just turn the water back on...

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 10:03:06 am
content: QuoteIn electrical installations, there are 2 kinds of RCD's, one of 300mA in the mains input intended for protection against risk of fire by leak current, and one or more 30mA RCD's for protection against risks of electrocution.And you say this is not safe ?30 mA has been choosen to be a safe limit with no risk of fibrillation. It has never been choosen as a balance between safe and nuisance tripping, but only for safety.Not every circuit most be protected with 30 mA RCD's, washing machine and dishwasher for exemple are only protected by 300 mA RCD's.Such a current of only 30mA is also not high enough to produce lethal burn injuries.I agree that in case of using a pacemaker, 30 mA can be dangerous, but this is an exception.You must also be aware that very high currents greater than 500 mA does generally not induce fibrillation: that's the reason why electric chair does not always kill at once.QuoteConductivity of tap water vary with temperature, but not with voltage. Of course with dc current, you have another behaviour because you have electrolyse of water, but this does not happen with ac current.It is a nonsense to say that conductivity of most non-metals vary with voltage. Carbon resistors for exemple does not vary of value with voltage. Only with temperature.The guy of the video does not know what he is speaking about.QuoteThe only ways this could happen are:- welded contacts: this does not happen because current is limited by the resistance. There are also 2 contacts in serie for greater safety.- broken spring: manufacturers are using inox springs to avoid corrosion failure of springs.Thermal fuse can't be used because current is as high as 50A in a 110V shower and there is no way to place it reliabily in contact with the resistance. In normal working, this resistance is far hotter than water.If the shower is working without water, the resistance became at once so hot that it melt and break.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 10:59:24 am
content: What puzzles me, is why they never considered inserting a 12V transformer and making the coil from thicker wire. Would do the same job and be far safer.Only downside is the weight of the transformer.Of course if they cared about safety, it would come with a decent length of cord attached for a start, instead of 10cm.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 11:05:59 am
content: Quote from: oldway on February 01, 2016, 10:03:06 amWe are talking about RCDs for protection against electric shock here, not fire. What's acceptable also depends on the local wiring regulations. For example, in the UK, all appliances in the house need to be wired to a 30mA RCD, including dishwashers, washing machines and even lighting circuits. The reason for this is because people have been electrocuted before hammering nails into the wall and an RCD provides protection against this.QuoteBut 30mA can kill even a healthy person, if they're unlucky. An RCD will disconnect the circuit before any significant injury occurs but the longer the current flows, the higher the risk. It's Russian roulette.In the US GFCIs trip at a much lower current (5mA if I remember rightly) but they're typically built-into the sockets so there's only one per appliance, presumably to mitigate nuisance tripping.QuoteThe resistance of carbon resistors doesn't vary by much, up to the maximum voltage rating. As soon as this is exceeded by a significant amount, the resistance drops dramatically. Water is no different. You may measure a high resistance between two probes in a glass of water with a multimeter but connect those probes to the mains and measure the current and it will be an order of magnitude higher, than Ohm's law predicts.If tap water has such a high resistance, than electrode boilers wouldn't exist.QuoteThat's what contactors are for. Electric showers here in the UK are perfectly safe. The element is insulated with a ceramic jacket. There's thermal overload protection. The shitty shower discussed here has too many single points of failure to be considered to be safe. Of course it's safe if it's installed correctly, if the switch isn't operated whilst it's in use, if the element isn't broken and if the switch doesn't fail. Too many ifs. It's just not acceptable.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 12:10:27 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on February 01, 2016, 10:59:24 amThe most powerfull electric shower has a power of 8500W...in 12V, that's 708A...They sell this shower for 10 US§....How much is a 10KVA transformer ?@Hero999: You should try to live in poor countries some years to change your mind.I took a shower every day during 20 years with this kind of electric shower and I am still alive.You speak about things you don't know.And you are almost wrong....I never felt any electric shock with the plastic shower. (with metalic one, yes, but it did not killed me)Life in Brazil is risky, but not because of those showers.And in european countries, what kill people is stupidity...It seems that to much security is no security at all.There is a good reason for this: people think they are safe and does not care anymore with their own security.In reality, you make your own security, knowing what you are doing and not being distracted or negligent.How stupid is to say this shower is "suicide" when 80% of the family home in Brazil use everyday this kind of shower ?You mean there is 180 millions of Brazilians who are suicidals ?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 12:43:49 pm
content: QuoteMeasure of resistivity of water MUST always be done in ac.In dc, there is a polarisation effect that give a wrong value.

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 12:53:13 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on February 01, 2016, 12:10:27 pmYou can say that again... and again... and again....QuoteAgreed. Too much security gives people excess of confidence, and that's where Darwin's Law steps in. Add to that the fact that people are simply getting dumber - and that's all around the globe. I guess that we, humans, as a race, have already peaked in our collective intelligence, and this was 20 years ago.QuoteI can add my 2 cents to this. Showers in Brazil are insecure, but then again, we have very poor - or mostly non existant - building codes. There are regulations (the "NR"s as another Brazilian user pointed out) but nobody follows them. It is a miracle that we don't have more deaths due to house fires, electrocutions and explosions. Nobody here is required to have a certified technician do repairs on their home (or some times of constructions). It's pretty much "anyone can do whatever they want". This entire country is an accident waiting to happen.You'd be amazed at how many people don't care to connect the shower's earth (green) wire to a properly earth connection.Even expensive showerheads (that go beyond the US$150 price range) don't add much more security than the basic US$15 showerheads you linked previously. They certainly look a lot better and come in a nice box, but aren't inherently safer.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 01:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on February 01, 2016, 12:10:27 pmI wouldn't put 8.5kW through anything that costs US$10. If not for the water I'd call it a fire risk.My huge 210L hot water tank was only 5kW, since replaced with solar.water + electricity = badI find your lack of respect for electrical safety deeply disturbing.As I do when people who should know better do the same, eg an electrician I had here once that uses completely uninsulated screwdrivers, even the handle is metal.Save up for another year and invest in a new metal trashcan, random heating element (stove, kettle etc) and a thermostat. A sealed metal can that is earthed has minimal safety issues, and you get some hot water for tea/coffee.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 01:37:41 pm
content: How much does power cost in Brasil? 50cents a shower? it adds up fast and dwarfs the cost of those shower heaters.It seems you are saving on water heaters but you should be saving with Solar?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 01:44:06 pm
content: Another country, another way of life and also others rules and regulations.Safety ? Most of my brazilians friends are dead...in less than 10 years.How did they died?shot deadroad accidentpoor care in hospitalOnly one died of natural death.There are other priorities in Brazil than safety of showers.As I measured, at 10 cm from the shower, there is no conduction of water anymore because it became droplets isolated one from the others.But there is something far more dangerous: the electric water tap.That's the same as the shower, but there is no isolation more by the droplets principle.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 01:50:06 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on February 01, 2016, 01:37:41 pmHow much do you think they pay ?

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 01:55:01 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on February 01, 2016, 01:44:06 pmThat thing is scary....Death by doctor is very high on the list of leading causes of death in the US.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 02:12:57 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on January 31, 2016, 09:48:58 amHave a look at this. If tap water is such a poor conductor, then explain why is there a couple of amps passing through it in this video?

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 02:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on February 01, 2016, 01:37:41 pmPower costs have skyrocketed in the last 15 months: in my state (Minas Gerais), the total raise has been about 140% (in the last 15 months!). My electricity bill has become absurdly high, and we don't even turn the AC on anymore, unless in extremely hot nights. The wine cellar has been turned off. Not even the microwave stays constantly plugged to mains. We connect it, use, disconnect. The electric coffee machine has been retired: we're only using the gas stove now. Considering our power consumption in my home, we're consuming about 50% less than Jan/2015, and yet our electricity bill is a lot higher.I estimate that a 10min shower might cost between .75 to 1 USD.Alternate energy has seen a hige increase in acceptance since 2014. Until then electricity was really cheap, so nobody even cared about solar panels. Nowadays they are becoming more and more omnipresent, specially in high-income areas.Low-income areas either have a discount on the bill if they stay below a certain power consumption or they just steal electricity from the electricity company (that is called "gato"). Neverthless, solar power is still expensive for most people.On a side note, and without getting into a political argument, but f*ck our corrupt, socialist government, elected by the uneducated and ignorant. A day doesn't go by when my wife and I don't plan on leaving Brazil and move to Australia, where her sister lives (and is married to a very nice Aussie fellow).

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 02:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on February 01, 2016, 01:44:06 pmOut of the 10 most common causes of death in Brazil (2013 statistics), only the 5th and 8th places are "unnatural" causes: firearms and traffic/road accidents, respectively.I've lost a friend to a car crash, but that is pure stupidity on his part. He was driving drunk at 7AM and crashed his car.Poor hospital care is certainly a thing, but most times it is attributed to other natural causes, mostly due to undiagnosed or misdiagnoses causes. The free health care system we have might as well be absent, since it is of very low quality. Unless you have a private health plan, you can kiss your ass goodbye if you have to go into one of the free hospitals. Anyone who can afford - even if barely - a private health plan, will get one.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 02:34:10 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on February 01, 2016, 10:03:06 amCareful, I am not sure how did you figure out that water does not get electrolysed with AC current. Of course it does.The difference between DC and AC electrolysis is that with DC you get oxygen on one electrode and hydrogen on the other. With AC it depends on the electrode material - with some you will only get heating, but some materials will cause the water to decompose. Moreover, in that case the gasses will be mixed and in just the perfect ratio to go BOOM in a sufficient concentration.Here is even an scientific article on electrolysis happening in AC water heaters - from 1929. The abstract is sufficient already:http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/cjr29-020or this one:http://www.iosrjen.org/Papers/vol3_issue8%20%28part-2%29/I03825259.pdf

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 02:45:52 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on February 01, 2016, 10:59:24 amA 12V transformer would cost much more than the entire shower head.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 03:11:55 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 01, 2016, 02:34:10 pmThe resistor of the shower is inox wire and than no electrolysis can occur with ac current.A made a lot of experiments on electrolysis with inox electrodes and in ac, I never seen any gas production.I did not tried with aluminium because de + aluminium electrode get oxidated during electrolysis.Is that not the reason why behaviour is different with alumium in ac ?"Towards A.C the behavior of the solution depends mainly on the electrodes. For most metallic electrodes namely Cu, Zn the solution behaves much like resistance and the energy is wasted in heating of the solutionSometimes the solution reaches its boiling point.Aluminum(very cheap and commonly found) acts in a very different manner. Here liberation of O2 and H2 is possible just like D.C along with liberation of heat"I read that this depends also on frequency of ac current.In any case, I know of no industrial electrolyzer operated in ac or any other industrial application of this.

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 03:32:04 pm
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 01, 2016, 02:15:35 pmMy last bill, from this January: With taxes, 1KWh = R$0.7155627 or about USD 0.18.Solar energy? Not with the current government:http://www.socioambiental.org/pt-br/noticias-socioambientais/dilma-veta-energias-renovaveis-nao-hidraulicas-no-plano-plurianual(in portuguese)A 2KW solar panel can cost between USD 4K and 9K, currently affordable only by the top 1% of the pyramid. But prices are going down, despite of all odds. Ask me again in 5 years, I still have hope.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 03:32:59 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 30, 2016, 05:55:47 pmIt's a question of familiarity with the risk. Most, if not all of us, will know a friend or relative that was killed in a motor vehicle 'accident'. (I can count two friends who died that way.) None, or hardly any of us, will know someone - even someone they only met once - who was killed in a terrorist incident. Yet, we have little fear of using motor vehicles and often strenuously resist new laws that might make them safer but slightly less convenient or more expensive. On the other hand terrorism is *the* fear of the 21st century and many western democracies have adopted laws that are plain dangerous to civil liberties with hardly a murmur in opposition from the general population. We, as a species, over-react to unfamiliar threats and treat even mild unfamiliar threats as deadly while taking a much more rational risk-reward balancing attitude to familiar threats.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 03:46:07 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on January 30, 2016, 10:18:56 pmI'd think that showering with an ursid, or any large carnivorous mammal, was inherently unsafe.

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 03:50:25 pm
content: Quote from: 1xrtt on February 01, 2016, 03:32:04 pmI think you're not in Minas Gerais, are you? Not only we have the most expensive electricity in the country, but last October we had an increase in ICMS (a state tax, which jumpped from 18% to 25%), which was effective on Jan 1st/2016, plus we're running on "bandeira vermelha", which means an added tax of R$ 0.045 for every kWh consumed.BTW, our state governor is also a corrupt socialist fuck from the same party ("PT") as the president, one of the dumbest persons to ever be born.

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 03:53:56 pm
content: Yes, I should've provided context about location. I'm in Sao Paulo, capital. I have no idea of energy cost in other parts of the country and I already think what I pay is way too much.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 04:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: 1xrtt on February 01, 2016, 03:53:56 pmFrom online source:QuoteSo you are paying approximately 1/20th of the EU average. To give some perspective.Mod: Moooo, Woof, Quack...

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 05:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 01, 2016, 04:52:49 pmThe way that is worded, It gives the impression that the KWh costs R$0.055, but that's non-sensical. The same news states:QuoteThis is my bill: 311 KWh for a total of R$222.54. At an exchange rate 1 USD = R$ 4.07, you can do the math.Some other references for comparison, of average KWh prices:In US, USD 0.12:https://www.eia.gov/electricity/sales_revenue_price/pdf/table5_a.pdfIn EU, EUR 0.208 (USD 0.22):http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Half-yearly_electricity_and_gas_prices,_second_half_of_year,_2012%E2%80%9314_(EUR_per_kWh)_YB15.pngso, that makes US average 33% lower and EU, about 22% higher than what I pay. Keeping in mind that I'm not taking into account the average annual income for any worker on each region, which should probably worsen that difference.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 06:26:18 pm
content: Ah, OK. After reading the sentence another five times, it makes sense. My bad.That is indeed a huge increase. I guess the shower heads have to be replaced with something else.BTW, I consume about 5-6 times the energy at home as gas, which is about 1/3 of the price for the same KWh. For hot water and heating. Sure, it is not available everywhere, but could be a huge cost reduction.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 06:37:06 pm
content: Yet another location where prices are being artificially manipulated.This isn't a comment in favor of any policy, just a comment on the clarity of the evidence that such things exist. Regardless of whether you feel that fossil energy costs are appropriately burdened with their true environmental costs, this change is not in concert with the worldwide decline in fuel prices over the last year.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: 1xrtt on February 01, 2016, 03:32:04 pmWhat about thermal solar for hot water? No dangerous electric showers. No flammable/toxic gas. Just panels with pipes in them to heat water for showering.Thermal solar is much more efficient for heating water, than photovoltaic.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on February 01, 2016, 03:11:55 pmSorry but that is also incorrect, you can't prevent electrolysis by changing the electrode metal. Any conductive electrodes passing current through an ionic solution can cause electrolysis.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 01, 2016, 12:53:13 pmThat I don't think is true in the long term, but it might be true in the short term. It already happened over here during what we call the"middle ages"(~500-1500).QuoteHaving regulations is no guarantee that they're always followed. Generally, they're followed, but there are a lot of examples that they were not and led to problems or accidents.I used to work for a firm that installs and maintains electrical installations, and I heard lots of stories of the things they found wrong in installations because of ignorance.I live in a building that still has some asbestos materials in it, some of it will be taken out soon by specialist company which will probably cost many thousands of euros. When researching asbestos, I was surprised to find that its use was prohibited no earlier than 1993! So much for regulations...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:01:13 pm
content: Asbestos is perfectly safe as long as it's not disturbed. Living in a house which contains asbestos is only a problem when one decides to carry out building work.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:04:47 pm
content: That's indeed why asbestos materials may remain in buildings, but in our case it needs to go. It's an old sewer pipe that has gone leaky and must be replaced with PVC.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on February 01, 2016, 02:12:57 pmThe electrode boiler has two large plate electrodes (~2cm wide and ~30cm long) separated by a tiny gap, about 2mm.The law for resistivity is R=rho.L/A and ohm's law is V=IR.240V/2A=120 R; 120R*.006m2/.002m = 360 ohm-m = rho.360 ohm-m is a very very high resistivity (a poor conductor). It's about twenty billion times higher than copper.This neglects capacitance, which is also a factor with closely spaced plates and AC.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 09:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: vinicius.jlantunes on January 28, 2016, 06:13:43 pmI understand your reasoning but to many of us this design is not done for so many reasons. We have learned water and electricity don't mix well and this device just does that. Literally!Also note the remark about people from Europe (especially the North-West part) being larger. I recall taking a shower in a (not so shabby) hotel in Taipei but I couldn't stand straight in the shower cabin!

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 10:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: jitter on February 01, 2016, 08:55:03 pmIn the 40's, 18yo guys from the US, most of Europe, some from Brazil, Australia, New Zealand and North of Africa, were linning up to go to war and defend their countries against whoever the enemy was in WW2. Nowadays, 18yo are linning up to watch a justin bieber concert, or to paint their hairs purple, or go on youtube to cry like a bitch when someone offends Brittney Spears. Or youth need to "man up" like our fathers/grandfathers. Compare all forms of art (music, painting, sculpting, and so on) from 40-60 years ago and what it is now.Have we ever had such great painters as Vermeer, Van Gogh, Rembrandt and Bruegel in the last 30 years, just to name the few from The Netherlands that I know?Europe has had centuries of headstart in evolution over Brazil, but that's no excuse, since we're about the same age as the USA. Our problem is a historical problem that dates from early in our colonization by the Portuguese. I'd like to tell you all more about Brazil, but I don't think many are interested, and it's way offtopic. If I sound like a skeptic, that's because I am. If our current government keeps on doing what it's doing, we're doomed.

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:50:19 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on February 01, 2016, 08:38:15 pmThat is a more affordable alternative. Prices seems to be from USD 700 to 1200. Still, it's not widespread yet, possibly because it also demands some refitting on the water pipes, replacing the typical PVC with copper ones.Data from our government says that Brazil currently have 5% of households using thermal solar, and the prediction is to achive 24% by 2050! Considering the precision of these estimates, I'd say many Brazilian kids from 22nd century will still shower with the same heads that horrified many in this thread.http://www.brasil.gov.br/infraestrutura/2015/01/plano-projeta-aumento-no-uso-residencial-de-energia-solar-ate-2050Quote

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 04:04:03 am
content: Quote from: jitter on February 01, 2016, 08:55:03 pmAsbestos? Lead? Pfft! Just to give you the amount of ignorance that my other fellow Brazilians are speaking of, time and again we hear stories about people that use Askarel oil stolen from distribution transformers as cooking oil. Not to mention the folks that stole Cesium 137 from an X-ray machine and used it on several places - it glowed in the dark...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 04:17:19 am
content: Quote from: helius on February 01, 2016, 09:06:23 pmPrecisely this. I have done several experiments over the years and can really attest to that - however I learned very early that saying that in public is begging to be laughed at due to the common misconception. The tap water in my home town was a very poor conductor and even the hard water I have here in Dallas is better, but nothing to call home about. That, tied to the much lower resistance path between the resistive element and the ground or between the live and neutral, guarantee that millions are not zapped every day by thesechuveiros.If water was so good of a conductor, why would you die of electrocution if your body was completely wet? Wouldn't electricity flow mostly through the water drops in your skin instead of through your heart?

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 08:13:15 am
content: I suspect most people are killed due to poor installation than the nature of the device itself.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 08:28:53 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 03, 2016, 04:17:19 amBecause you are 80% water. And the water at your feet will decrease the resistance to the ground, which is the piping. Ask any electrician, they will tell you that water and electricity is a bad idea. And even if a properly installed shower might be safe most of the cases, they can look like this:

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 10:21:47 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 03, 2016, 04:17:19 amYes, this is certainly true if the device is operating as intended. There is a problem, though, if the resistance heaters were to break off or corrode: the neutral side of the element might be covered in scale and become a poor conductor, or be corroded away by impurities. If the ground wire is left disconnected (which seems common), or it too is corroded, then the only path from live to ground is the user. Even if the ground wire is connected, it doesn't do much to shield the user: it simply pokes into the stream of water. This would be mitigated almost entirely by the use of a sensitive RCD (5mA trigger), but without that it seems too hazardous.Water quality is taken for granted, but it can be quite variable: as can its conductivity. We have no problems with our water here, but every year when the distribution system is flushed, the dissolved metals go up a lot and it turns brownish. What could seem electrically safe on some days might be dangerous on others.QuoteThe body's contents inside the skin is a very concentrated aqueous solution of electrolytes. Ionic solutes increase water's conductivity a lot. The current that can be lethal to the heart is also very small, only a couple of mA directly. In no way does most of the current need to travel to the heart to cause death.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 12:07:07 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 03, 2016, 08:28:53 amThat may be properly installed, but the shower itself is far from being proper...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 12:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: helius on February 03, 2016, 10:21:47 amBelieve me, water quality varies greatly in Brazil, so much that a common misconception there is that it is not potable (people usually don't drink from the tap, but instead put some "filters" that do nothing more than block residues).What I discuss is how efficient a "path to ground" or "path to neutral" through one's body would be instead of much lower resistance paths. The galvanized iron connections on drains haven't been used in decades now, as well as the fact that almost 100% of shower stalls are porcelain or granite, which increases the resistance to ground by an enormous extent.I agree the body and the inner skin are very good electricity conductors, but the outer skin... Not so much. Again, which one would be a lower resistance path?Look, I think we all understand the commonchuveirosare more dangerous than a properly designed water heater, especially considering the quality of the installations around. However, at a certain point in time we must ask ourselves how a red herring this becomes, especially when facing the statistics. Alternatives also have their share of problems: in the past gas was widely used in water heaters, but they are inherently volatile and poisonous (my dad almost died of poisoning while taking a shower). Solar is initially expensive and subject to elements, which increase its cost of ownership (although some folks are reporting the electricity is becoming more expensive, favouring this solution). There is no perfect solution.(edit: removed a silly sentence constructed)

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 01:58:25 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 03, 2016, 12:45:13 pmThat has been the point I tried to make rsjsouza, but I think some people will disagree no matter what. I too understand and agree that thechuveirocan me made safer, everything can, but the question is: does it need to?That's where our observations come into play and made me (and you as well it seems) to think thatno, it is not really a problem; but others will disagree because their assumptions about what is safe trumps accounts by people like you and me that have used these things for years and live (or lived) in the country where it is widely used. Reality is thatthere isn'tthousands of people dying or getting "tingles" everyday as some people assume in this thread (no matter how tall), but people will believe their assumptions more than what we tell them is the reality cause it's part of the complex mechanism happening in their brains that decide what is an acceptable risk and what is not.There could even be a slight and most probably unintentional prejudice at play, that people in a third world country are so dumb and uneducated that they would not complain about showers shocking them every day - they would learn to live with it and not say a word, or that media and etc. would not report at all if lots of people were dying or being injured as a result of shocks while showering. People keep showing pictures of crappy hostels with obviously crappy installations and seem to assume it's like that in every household, when it really isn't (sure some places it will be, but that is true of any country /system).(edit: grammar)

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 05:11:23 pm
content: I don't think the US education system is necessarily better in this regard. Most people here don't see anything wrong with this:and knowledge of what is and isn't safe doesn't seem to be much better among the trades.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 05:39:48 pm
content: Quote from: helius on February 03, 2016, 05:11:23 pmAgain, I will point out that you are only half right. I agree that knowledge of safest practices is not universal, nor is knowledge of locally accepted definitions of safe practices.But there is clearly no universally accepted standard for what is safe enough. Moreover even the components of such a standard are not really available. What is an acceptable risk of death or serious injury? One chance in 1E4? on change in 1E6? One chance in 1E12? Even the US military, which has a fairly extensive and formal process for dealing with these things only has some general guidelines, and a process for kicking the decision up the command chain as the odds get worse. And even if you had agreement on that number the data is generally very spotty on what the risks are from any particular activity.On top of that, your photograph implies a risk which may or may not actually exist. It might indicate either lack of knowledge about safe practices, or a deep understanding of the risks driving those practices. For example if the user has a double insulated power tool with ungrounded power cord, but the only available extension cord has a grounding plug, the photographed installation poses no risks that are not accepted by US practice. It may not comply with the letter of the NEC, but it would not be "unsafe". Not connecting the adapter to the (potentially ungrounded) screw in the center of the outlet is possibly only a safety precaution to help prevent leaving the adapter in place where subsequent use might involve an unsafe practice.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 05:57:27 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 03, 2016, 12:45:13 pmReally?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 07:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 03, 2016, 05:57:27 pmThis is certainly more expensive than 12 Euros.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 08:32:02 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 03, 2016, 07:10:33 pmNo doubt not paid for by the local home owners.I any event there is no need to heat the water for showers in hot countries.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 08:39:02 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 03, 2016, 07:10:33 pmSure, but you get hot water for the whole house, not just the shower. Do Brazilians have cold water in the kitchen or is there another heater for that?(And maybe hot water for the neighbors house, too...)

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 09:51:12 pm
content: I have that style of solar Hot water on my roof, it is excellent but it is not cheap.If anyone has a similar system then I have a tip.The little vessel mounted on top is the inlet float switch, it should be moved so the inlet pipe to the main tank is not at the top but the side.This stops the float from having mechanical stress when the tank water is boiling. I learnt this the hard way.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2016, 05:46:42 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on February 03, 2016, 09:51:12 pmIn some countries they just put a simple water tank on the roof and paint it black to absorb more sun.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2016, 07:04:39 am
content: Quote from: Towger on February 03, 2016, 08:32:02 pmAustralia is (mostly) a hot country,& we certainly do need hot water for our showers.There is such a thing as Winter.Even in the Tropical North,a nice hot shower is very enjoyable.Many years ago,I worked in a town where the water pipes were laid directly on the surface of the ground.We could have "Hot" showers from the cold tap in the peak of the "Dry" season.In between the two major seasons,the solar HWS worked well.In the "Wet" season,the sky could be covered with huge black clouds for days,whilst it poured with rain.My Employer decided that an Electric booster to the solar HWS wasn't necessary,so I had the great experience of coming home saturated & covered with red mud,to a cold shower!

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2016, 09:16:40 am
content: Quote from: helius on February 01, 2016, 09:06:23 pmCapacitance will be a negligible effect at 50Hz compared to the conductivity of the water.You have significantly exaggerated the length of the electrodes in this case. Unless BigClive has miniscule hands or a enormous pint glass, then the heater electrodes can be no more than about 15cm and probably somewhat less than this. The electrodes are completely covered, so I don't know how you got the width at 2cm?360 Ohm.m is a lot higher than copper, but this is completely irrelevant as it is still sufficient to allow a lethal current to flow if the separation is small. Do you honestly believe this is a safe design?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2016, 10:01:39 pm
content: Where I live, even light switches in the bathroom need to be pull-cords, so this style of shower wouldn't be allowed, irrespective of whether the element is insulated or not. People must've been killed or severely injured in the past, which is why the wiring regulations exist.I thought I'd do some resistance measurements on tap water. I compared the resistance indicated by my meter and that obtained by connecting it to the mains, via an isolating transformer and measuring the current. Generally I found my meter was giving double the resistance. The probe spacing made little difference. I tried different meters, a crappy Mastech and a meterman (now Amprobe) and the results were the same.The water in my area is fairly hard. Using gold plated banana plugs, about 3cm apart, the meter read 1.25k but the current at 238V was 390mA, giving a resistance of just 611R.I'm aware this isn't a fully scientific experiment. The lesson is don't trust resistance measurements made with your meter. There's a reason why insulation tests are conducted at higher voltages (120V to 8kV depending on the situation) than normal Ohm meters use.

author: vinicius.jlantunes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2016, 11:10:56 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on February 04, 2016, 10:01:39 pmIdeally the regulations were put in place even before deaths / injuries occurred; I believe that socioeconomic conditions allowing, regulations regarding safety should be tightened as much as possible prior to any deaths occurring. Unfortunately it isn't realistic around here

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 02:08:40 am
content: Quote from: oldway on February 01, 2016, 01:44:06 pmJeez, that's ugly. Wow. I'd rather have cold water, seriously.On regards to deaths: even though there are far more apparently important things, details still mater. These details together form a culture. If there is no safety culture:*Road accidents happen*Someone gets a bacterial infection on the hospital for ignoring something ridiculously simple, like latex gloves*Some shoots himself for not using the lock on the gunYou get the idea. Also lacking, in my Dominican experience is: safety, quality of the technical work (this is both the client and the technician's fault), signaling and labeling, and well defined standards and codes (both in law and in practice). Notice I chose aspects related to the topic we're talking about: electric installations and plumbing.It's a culture that's simply not there. And this sort of culture, in my opinion starts on the details and is one of the things that differentiate undeveloped countries from developed ones. It's not just Gross Domestic Product and export volumes.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 02:24:09 am
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 01, 2016, 02:15:35 pmSame thing over here, except for the 140% increase. Electricity is not very cheap, but it's manageable. We switched to a gas heater because it's cheaper. We could afford more efficient appliances, so we replaced the 20 year old fridge with something much more efficient, for example. I'd like to have solar when I settle down. Prices should be low by then.Gas prices never went down, even though oil prices were down by a lot last year.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 02:27:17 am
content: Quote from: Towger on February 03, 2016, 08:32:02 pm^|He's right. We're just spoiled.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2016, 10:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: helius on February 03, 2016, 05:11:23 pmYes. The first day I was in the US, I was shocked by the socket. I mean shocked by the quality, the accessibility to the metals, and the general dodgyness. Like it came from some 50s retro movie. Looks like it was designed by the USB-IF.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 01:31:15 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 06, 2016, 10:51:00 pmWhile these are valid comments, they really aren't a leading safety problem here.The bigger electrical related safety problem is fires caused by putting too many loads on the socket/cord/extension cord. No amount of safety features in the socket/plug would change that. The circuit breaker or fuze can't solve the problem, it requires some understanding that there are limits to performance, and buying the cheapest 24 gauge extension cord you can find and then plugging the coffee pot and microwave into it is not a good idea.The same thing also partially applies to your comments. If you ignore fundamental design flaws in the socket/plug you still can find high quality implementations and low quality implementations. Guess which ones cost more (and are more often used by electricians), and which cost less (and are installed by homeowners and contractors who don't plan to operate an ongoing business)? I am sure that something of the same problem exists with the British and European designs, though your regulatory agencies may be stricter than ours.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2016, 06:53:04 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 07, 2016, 01:31:15 amThis can be a problem where ever you go, to some extent.In the UK it's mitigated by not allowing extension leads with cable rated to anything less than 13A and having a plug top fuse. Of course this doesn't stop stupid people coiling the cable or cheap dodgy extension leads from China.

author: raspberrypi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:41:00 am
content: Quote from: ivan747 on January 28, 2016, 01:08:59 pmWhats sad here in America is that they are trying to get rid of these "job killing" regulations. We will be a third world country here soon enough. Really sad to think how many poor people die just because of laziness and greed, and no education to know that its unsafe.