Siglent SDS1104X-E oder Rigol MSO5074 - double price, much better? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 10:30:38 am
content: As a "hobbyist" I look for an upgrade to my low level beginners 2ch 40 MHz 1024pts (!) scope. Hope I will be able to puzzle with electronics the last 20 years in my life in maximum :-), do not need to think about future requests. A Rigol DS1054Z would do in >90% of cases, but an SDS1104X-U seems worth the money much more. I do not think I need multichannel highspeed (so the single AD will be no disadvantage). On the other hand, the 1104X-E is not that big step up to have the option for extensions, although I would always prefer a (more channel) LA and a separate AWG. Hack the 1104 to 200 MHz is the only thing I would do. Recently 500 Euro bucks are called (from Germany).This week a special offer @Meilhaus: Rigol MSO5074 for < 2x the price (963 Euro).Obviously, this is like comparing apples and oranges.I would be so unreasonable (also because there has just been a small windfall) as to pay the extra price if that results in real and meaningful added value. Four individual Y-controllers, touch, built-in AWG ootb (I do not have any yet), hackable to 350 Mhz etc. ... are there also any better measurement options or software tools on board? I look for some decoding, usable voltage readings (1% will do), a frequency counter would be nice, <20 ppm.btw:with an addional AWG, I have to invest ~750 bucks.Time and efficiency don't matter to me, I don't need to make money with it, neither would ever make its money.So why would it be reasonable to be unreasonable for once?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 11:18:40 am
content: Yes good question, when is enough scope enough scope ?If SDS1104X-U, SDS1104X-E and MSO5054 are to be seriously considered why not include a SDS2104X Plus or a R&S 2000.Any that include an AWG might seem more attractive but the truth is inbuilt AWG's have significant limitations that will at times fall short of your needs.Do some more datasheet study and come back to us with more questions.

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 12:11:19 pm
content: You are right. I did tons of datasheet studying before ... but this is not all.SDS plus or R&S is beyond reach, if a MSO5000 is already "unreasonable" in my eyes. More than 1000 bucks is overkill.The question what scope is enough to me I have to answer myself, of course.It is more the question of price/value - will a MSO5000 do its job that significantly better (or more convenient) as a SDS1104-XE?Are there any valueable things a MSO5000 has, but a 1104 not? and so on.And yes, a separate good AWG is always a good idea, but ootb a MSO5000 built-in AWG will do a better job for me than a DG812 (unless I hack it).All this is more a question of long experience than of datasheet comparisons.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 09:47:24 pm
content: Well X-E and 5074 are in different classes of instrument, pure and simple.Different size displays and 5074 is touch capable and a heap more mem depth however just a small update to what you have will seem massive.You might be quite happy with a X-U and still have change left over to get a standalone AWG.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 12:12:49 am
content: I have a SDS1104X-E and really like it. As a hobbiest I will likely never use half of its capabilities, but like most, I like my toys and have looked at the Rigol MSO5000. My eyesight up close is not great and I would like the HDMI to output to a big wall mounted monitor. There is a retired EE on YouTube - tomtektest that has recently purchased the 5000 and he is evaluating it for college curriculums. He has made a bunch of detailed videos going through all aspects of the scope.https://youtube.com/channel/UCUEo3LPGD1gWfGJQoE0i1GgHe goes a long at senior citizen pace, but he is professional and through, you might have a look.If the Siglent SDS2000X Plus had HDMI I would probably buy it.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 12:30:29 am
content: I myself have been looking for an oscilloscope a couple of months ago.If you care about having a MSO option, please be aware that SDS1104X-E's LA pod is expensive and doesn't seem to work fine. If you search the forum you'll be able to find bad reports about it.Rigol DS1074Z-PLUS is said to have a better-working MSO option, but it seems that you get just half the analog channels and memory depth when using the LA pod.There are DIY LA pods for MSO5074 that are reported good, but it's also said that this oscilloscope is "noisy".SDS2104X Plus seems to be *fine*, and it also has a DIY LA pod reported good. I have been on the brink of buying it.But, as a newbie hobbyst, I finally gave up about MSO option and decided to follow a cheaper way. Got a GW Instek GDS1054B. However, I'm not really sure it can be "upgraded" to 100 MHz, after some reports it could be more 80-ish MHz. Other reports say it is actually a 100 MHz device. Yet, I don't have the knowledge nor the equipement to be sure about that. But sure as hell I have been able to buy that separate DG811 AWG, DSLogic Plus LA, and other stuff, with the remaining money.SDS2104X Plus, maybe some years on... for the time being, I'm happy with what I got.If you don't care about MSO option, but want to have as much bandwidth and samplerate as (reasonably) possible, I think Siglent's SDS1104X-E is your best bet.Hope this helps.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 12:40:34 am
content: Quote from: Old Printer on June 13, 2021, 12:12:49 amAlthough larger displays do help for those with challenged vision both the X-E and 2kX Plus do have webservers that you can use with a tablet or a PC. Sure it's not as simple as plugging in a monitor but if you are to need a permanent remote display setup then a little effort to get it working is no real issue.The other advantage of a webserver is proper remote control of your scope where you might have it set up to find a HW or SW fault at a remote location and recently a customer emailed me to say he'd been watching for a fault from his office and home at his company and the scope had found and captured it and it was some issue that had plagued his company for some years. To say he was well chuffed after owning his new SDS2104X Plus for just a few days is a serious understatement.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 09:05:09 am
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 12, 2021, 10:30:38 amIt is. The MSO is much better than the X-E but it's 2x the price. Lots of threads in this forum.If you think you can get along with the X-E, save your money. In a few years you'll be able to buy a MSO-equivalent with the rest of it.Or, you could go to the 2kX+ or RTB2k as tautech said...It's all about money, look also at this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-or-rigol-ds1202z-e/

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2021, 04:31:43 pm
content: Many thx to all input here.Quote from: tv84 on June 13, 2021, 09:05:09 amThe question was: Is it (in all essential things) twice as good? Better input stages? Faster UI? What really useful (measuring or analyzing) features of a MSO does a 1104-X have not?It may be that having 8 GB/s or 350 MHz analogue bandwidth will be useful to me at some point in the future, but it is very unlikely at the moment. Recently, I miss accuracy (-10% in Y) and mem depth (really only 1024 pts!), but no bandwidth. 14m Samples in a run? Will never need this, neither more. Much more important to me is a good and fast user interface (reasonably prompt response to buttons and rotary encoders), and a reasonably usable input section. If you compare a Rigol DS1054z and the Siglents 1104X-E/U, it seems to me that the Siglents are clearly ahead here. If the MSO5074 - apart from the touchscreen, which is already described as sluggish and not really optimised for operation - is the same or even worse, I would also refrain from using it. If the input of a MSO5k is not better than that of a 1104X-E, I would prefere Siglent.Again: If I compare a 1104X-E and the 2k2+, which is almost three times as expensive, with regard to my needs, I clearly (!) decide in favour of the 1104X-E. But if I get 90% of a 2k2+ with the rigol without any disadvanteges to the 1104X-E ... hm ...QuoteReally? a 4ch up to (let's say) 100MHz, 9" 1024x600 touch screen for 500 bucks? hm...Quote ... I'm working on it ...btw: for a AWG, the siglent SDG1032x is on the list because I much more like the UI than that of the rigols - even without touch.And now, I will watch more videos about the MSO as suggested by Old Printer.edit1: just found out: a mouse on a MSO5k. Damned, I like that!

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2021, 08:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 14, 2021, 04:31:43 pmAs I said: all of those are answered in the forum. Nonetheless, thatwon't assure you the peace of mind that you're searchingfor your choice. I've seen this over and over again in this forum. You're at a point where ONLY YOU can make the decision.You missed (or at least, didn't quote) the most important part of my msg: "It's all about money".Leave the forum for 1 or 2 days and think introspectively on how much money you are willing to spend. If you choose $500 -> X-E, $1000 -> MSO5000, $1500 - > 2kX+.(If a X-E solves 90% of your essential needs, then go for it. For the other 10%, put on your engineer hat and find a workaround using the X-E and some brain power. Later, if you end up finding something you missed becomes really important and there is no workaround with the X-E then it's because you were unable to correctly define your essential needs in the start of this process. Or it's time to insert more coins...)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 11:17:33 am
content: Quote from: Old Printer on June 13, 2021, 12:12:49 amMicsigs have HDMI output and the touch-screen user interface is a massive improvement over old twisty-knob instruments.You can plug in a mouse and use the big screen directly.(Yes, there's some other oscilloscopes with touch-screen added to afterwards them but Micsigs were designed to be touch-screen from the very beginning - early Micsig models didn't even have knobs on them)

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 12:39:33 pm
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 14, 2021, 04:31:43 pmYou've mentioned "better input stages" several times now. This is exactly one of the features, where the Siglent DSOs are hard to beat, especially the SDS1000X-E:True 500 µV/div vertical sensitivity instead of 4 mV/div and only fake (software zoom) below that, as so many others do.Low noise frontend, on par with the best in class R&S oscilloscopes and vastly better than almost anything else.The bode plotter is more powerful and refined too.For most of the other aspects, of course the bigger touchscreen instrument has more to offer. Only you can decide what you really need and want.Since you want e.g. accuracy of the measurements, you should have a look into my review, where all these topics are covered in detail - with actual measurements and demonstrations:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 02:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on June 15, 2021, 12:39:33 pmIf so, this point goes to Siglent :-)QuoteYeah. Finally I made a detailed comparison table (as far as I could do this at all) out of datasheets and manuals of my two candidates and separate AWGs.0. The SDS2k+ are a REALLY Upgrade to the RIGOL to me. Yes, another 500 bucks make a bigger difference than the 500 from the 1104x-e to the MSO5k. I finally understand why so many people like it.1. The MSO5k built-in AWG I find ... let's say "basic" compared even to an FY6900. With an extra AWG like DG81x or a SDG1032x I get MUCH more options than I thougt until now.2. Looking for an precise counter, ootb every external AWG seems to do a better job, finally if I decide to couple a GPSDO sometime in the future.3. I really like the touch option (just as I like my MS Surface Pro 5 tablet with Touch more than any other laptop).So what are the (maybe) benefits in my sight to go for a MSO5k instead of a 1104X-E? As far as I could see now isa) Touch (and mouse)b) decode option I2S. OK, I missed this some years ago, once.c) 4 decodings simultaneously instead of 2. (But are these hardware decoders? does it matter?)d) 6x more memory, much more faster single shot sample rate. If analyzing >100 MHz, important. Not for me.e) Zone trigger. Can't even imagine what use this could be only for very special needs. Am I wrong?f) resolution enhancement: ERES on Siglents up to +3dB, "HIRES 12bit" on Rigol. No further information if Vodoo or not.In most other cases, I cannot really find big differences.In fact, I am at the beginning point: What are the benefits of doubling the budget here?And now, the whole thing comes to a different end for me with another suggestion here: Instead of considerung an "upgrade" to the Rigol, I found that a Micsig STO1104E (or even the C one) fits more to my recent and actual needs (as portable works, option to ungrounded work, easy and convenient UI) without any significant lacks to an 1104x-e (for my purposes). Some users here are very happy with that, even with the inputs. Of course, this is not a Siglent at all. But I was told to make up my really needs again.QuoteI will, nevertheless. But to get the RIGOL this week with the -10% offer is not longer an option to me, thus I can investigate some more time.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 01:16:43 pm
content: Pfriemler,I have to agree with your points 1-3.The comparison is not entirely correct though:Foursimplexdecoders as opposed to twoduplexdecoders on a Siglent are almost equivalent for most practical purposes.Zone trigger eases the task of triggering complex signals. It usually can be done without, but you need to think about the right triggering strategy.ERES on a Siglent means up to 3 bits of ENOB enhancement, which actually means 6 bits of resolution enhancement. This should be obvious because it's defined in half bits - as opposed to HiRes, where we actually define the resolution enhancement. So 3 bits ERES is equivalent to 6 bits HiRes. It is a common feature and no voodo (ERES by LeCroy, HiRes by most others), but the newer Rigol scopes of all things are said to have a poor implementation of HiRes.Okay, so it seems you have now found out what your true needs and priorities are - and of course, if portable work and touch screen are high on your list, then neither Siglent nor Rigol would be the right choice.

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 08:24:20 pm
content: ERES, ENOB ... why do the manufactures make it so hard to understand? I was reading some month over and over ...I did not understand why modern scopes still use 8bitDACsADC (thx for hint). Noise and averaging can do some semi-resolution enhancenment (as far as I understood), but this is what I would call Vodoo. If it really works - ok.Meanwhile I pulled the trigger on the smaller 4ch Micsig (same memory depth as 1104X-E) and the basic rigol, it should be arrive tomorry. Batronix ist damned fast, I am excited as a child at Xmas...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 04:14:22 am
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 17, 2021, 08:24:20 pmPrice.

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 07:58:33 am
content: Really? How much more would it cost?A 1104X-E with 16bitDACADC for +200 bucks? Don't you think this would be a self-seller?Maybe in most cases this will not be necessary at all, but thinking of audio measurements or even DC measurements, maybe as an option for only <100 kHz?OK, my workaround is a DMM || Scope (easy done with BNC-T). I found this 3-digit "voltmeter" in the MSO5k a very useful option, but more accuracy would be better.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 08:21:13 am
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 18, 2021, 07:58:33 amSimilar is in the SDS2104X Plus in the form of a 10 bit mode limited to 100 MHz.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 08:37:18 am
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 18, 2021, 07:58:33 am200 Mhz 16-bit...Not even +$2k!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 08:50:30 am
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 18, 2021, 07:58:33 amLet's think about this for a moment. It is not only A/D, you know... data from A/D gets processed in real time. With 8 bit SDS1104x-e, you have 2 gigabytes per second of data that has to be real time processed.Also 16 bit A/D would need to bump up internal math engine. Now it is 16 bit for 8 bit data. 16 Bit A/D would need 32 bit math... Everything would need to be upgraded.. To at least twice the size and speed...And then it is economics. 1GS/sec 8 bit A/D are actually quite affordable in volume. Going to 16 bit 1GS/sec is not twice the price. It is easily 20x the price..I personally wouldn't mind if someone would make an inexpensive scope 200 MHz with 4x 1Gs/sec 8 bit A/D to make it conform to Nyquist all the time and have damn good impulse response.. That one would be worth 200€ +It would always have same memory and sample rate on all channel combinations

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 08:52:05 am
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 18, 2021, 07:58:33 amFirst, they are not DAC they are ADC,Example one 1GSa/s 16bit ADC, Texas Instruments ADS54J60 ADC 1pcs chip price is more than whole brand new SDS1104X-E oscilloscope in box delivered to you, Oscilloscope price is lot of more than just BOM.And when you rise width from 8 bit to 16 bit do you have any imagine what all need do than just change ADC. Nearly everthing.After then I ask, related to normal use of oscilloscope, for what.Yes there is special need where we need high true resolution but who need it, where and for what.Btw, try make normal 1Mohh wide BW analog front, say example DC to 200-400MHz for 16bit ADC full resolution so that really can say these couple of lowest bits are not just for noise. It can but it really is not cheap. Start thinking from thermal noise... and continue to... blab la..So, or so, this and that... but...But if we move decimal point in price... perhaps something can do. Still MOST of things in electronics where we use oscilloscope can do with 8bit ADC's. Even these need first improve to near 8bit ENOB and front ends so that also LSB is even somehow meaningful. 8bit ADC scopes can improve lot of - with money, before even need rise ADC resolution. Look example Owon 12 bit elcheapo scopes. What they give... yes salesmans can print some miraculous images to shining sales brochures and thats nealy all... ENOB is berely just over 8bit perhaps.!!Why not ask improve of 8 bit scopes front end and sampling performance from 4-5-6-7 bit to near 8bit in all front end voltage ranges.Example in SDS1104X-E 500uV/div p-p noise is around 1/10 of F.S. with full BW. And it is guite good in its price range.Lot of better than some cheap Keysight, or Riglol where situation is much more bad.Perhaps this tell something about price vs resolution.Perfectly same scope in China, 1GHz 4ch scope with 12 bit ADC price is around 200 000 CNY.And same scope with 10bit ADC but other ways perfectly all same, price is around 90 000 CNYAnd they are not even expensive.Think about it, two bits! How about if proportionally add again 2 bit and again 2 bit, then it is 16 bit. (no it do not go so but for imagine something)Of course if reduce something and rise bits, perhaps can do without this rise of price.And total is not question about ADC price, you need think all. How about display... do you want also it have 16 bit vertical, 8k UHD have 4320 vertical pix but 16bit need 65536... and naturally fast wfm/s. Welcome to dreamers club. Naturally 16 bit, 14, 12 etc... they are useful also without full image resolution for these.Memories, bus structure, and processing power aka brute force for handle this data.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 09:19:41 am
content: People seem to forget that 8-bit to 16-bit is not 2x but 256x improvement.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 09:39:34 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 18, 2021, 09:19:41 amYep...oh but also no.... it is just 2x in if we talk with Mr A.G.Bell.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 02:14:05 pm
content: RF Loop nice to see you about still working for Siglent or freelance now?He does make a valid point you really need those extra two bits of resolutions?The cost is in the total front preferformance not just the adc's, amplifiers, ultra low noise stages etc.Being fortunate enough to own both 8 & 12 bit scopes I would happy to shed some light on this for you.Is accuarcy important to you for power rail noise meas/ jitter etc then yes without question 12 bits are extremely useful especially for acutally looking at aborations and other spurii on signals where 8 bits just do not have the resoluton remember a true 12 bits delivers 4096 times the resolving ability to really look at those low level signals, data channels, voltage line drop/sag and RF problems etc.You can really dig intot he noise floor and get to grips with aggressive nasties that can screw up your IoT projects or in our case ultra low rail and clock noise.Personally I have a twin approach: for the high bandwidths here in the home lab I have a 2.5Ghz 8 bit scope and a 500Mhz ultra low noise 12 bits scope and a slightly lower nosie 200Mhz 12 bit scope.Cost wise they are two very different beasts, if you had the chance to evaluate an 8 bits scope side by side with a 12 bits scope (with equal apps/BW/Sample rate etc.I genuinely feel you would would plump for the 12 bit, now cost is a BIG deciding factor in any T&E purchase and dictates what/how and why you buy proudct X/Y and Z That is Zed not Zeee lol)However we all have different requirements and budgets so appreciate it will be different for everyone.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 08:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 17, 2021, 08:24:20 pmIt really does work. And it's not just in scopes and such. You can see the same sort of effects in photography when you downsize a digital image. Doing so results in a reduction of noise and a cleaner image. If you're doing your processing with a target color resolution that's greater than the source color resolution then you can get an improvement in color resolution as well. The sampling theory is the same.QuoteYeah, I bet! Which specific Rigol?

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 09:36:37 am
content: It's at home, but not me. :-( The DG811, which will become another model afap :-)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 10:01:47 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on June 18, 2021, 08:52:05 amActually more than three brand new SDS1104X-Es:https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/texas-instruments/ADS54J60IRMP/5481841Quote from: rf-loop on June 18, 2021, 08:52:05 amA bigger FPGA can be done.The real problem is upgrading the entire front end to reduce the noise down to a suitable level. Manufacturers are already struggling to get the noise to to the -48dB required for 8-bit systems, how can they possibly make it to -96dB?In short: Never gonna happen. The tiny improvement on screen would never justify the massive cost.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 11:09:21 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 19, 2021, 10:01:47 amYou really think some one buy from Digikey for manufacturing. Why there need be some "third party".TI china,https://www.ti.com.cn/Price is 3994 CNY. Roughly 520 eur. And this is public price for small amount!

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 02:10:06 pm
content: Convinced. 16bit is too much resolution for most cases. But even 12bit makes a big difference (post by Sighound36) for measurement purposes. I was looking for an inexpensive general purpose scope, which just doesn't exist. Of course I didn't expect this resolution for the whole bandwidth - surely noise can be easily reduced with reduced bandwidth?Why are the 16bit ADCs so expensive? This has nothing to do with the real production costs, the development has to be paid. With appropriate numbers of units, this should become much cheaper very quickly?Dream aside. I would just like to have the accuracies of good multimeters in the measured values on the screen next to the curve image and one less measuring device on the table.Thanks for all the clarification. It's not as simple as I thought, probably also because there is no mass market for it.But interesting: Actually, this was only a side issue, originally it was about the benefit of a doubled investment...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 04:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on June 19, 2021, 02:10:06 pm12-bit is only going to be an improvement if you take care of a lot of other things first.Sighound36didn't post the exact models of his 12-bit scopes, but I'm pretty sure the cost of them would be prohibitive to the casual hobbyist--and probably to many professional engineers. Picoscope makes a 12-bit 20MHz (your reduced bandwidth) scope module (which requires a PC to work) that costs $1500 in 4-channel form. Other scopes have 10-bit, 12-bit or even 16-bit enhanced modes (Tek 5-series--starting at $15K) at reduced bandwidth. Unless you have some way of reducing the input noise, these enhanced modes are probably as good as the real thing.I think the assumption that mass production or demand will automatically lead to wide availability at appealing prices is unwarranted. Some things are hard and expensive to make, period. I'm sure there is no limit to the market for a $1000 12-bit 500MHz scope with 80dB dynamic range and 0.1% DC accuracy. In actuality, despite any remaining bugs and flaws, better entry level and one level up instruments like the the MSO5000 and SDS2000X+ are absolute miracles in terms of their performance per dollar. Competitive pressures are already quite high in this market.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 09:27:35 pm
content: Analog Discovery is 14 bits but it's 100MS/s so only about 30MHz bandwidth. It costs about the same as a low-end 4-channel DSO.