Tesla to build worlds largest lithium battery - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: member_xyz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 04:45:35 am
content: http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/south-australia-to-announce-tesla-as-backer-of-worlds-largest-battery-20170707-gx6mhy.htmlTesla to build worlds largest lithium battery for South Australian government grid backup.SA have had absolute nightmare by relaying mainly on wind, not sure how much solar. Had massive blackouts during wind storms when wind turbines had to be shut down.No technical details given???

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 06:15:57 pm
content: 100MW inverter / 129MWh storage. charged from the windmill park. ready to run end 2017...https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-powerpack-enable-large-scale-sustainable-energy-south-australia.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2017, 12:25:48 am
content: They're light on revealing the commercial side of it which is the most interesting part, happy to have a big press conference announcing it will be free if late but not the actual costs or operating tariffs. Tying it back to the blackouts is a distraction, the excess demand in that case was over 300MW, similarly the load shedding earlier this year was 300MW of shortfall in generation+import capacity. They'd need to build 3+n (some redundancy) of these batteries to cover those cases. Its a small part of what needs to be installed and not the single solution.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 12:48:10 am
content: I should probably go blog this for EEVdiscover.I would presume the switch-on would be the best time to do that?Contacts anyone?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 01:08:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 09, 2017, 12:48:10 amDave, some discussion in a parallel thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/south-australia-getting-a-big-lithium-battery!/

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 01:52:02 am
content: Let's see how long the batteries will lastAnd why lithium ion?! Perhaps lead acid, but Li-Ion is the most expensive and least durable battery technology IMO.Anyway, there should be better methods of storing energy. Australia has enough sun, so solar mirror power plants with molten salt storage might be an interesting option.Or hydroelectric storage. No mountais? Try something like this:http://inhabitat.com/scientists-unveil-plans-for-first-underwater-storage-power-plant/

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 08:21:24 am
content: The basic function of this battery is grid stabilisation, second function being peak power demands.Hence 100MW of inverters linked to 129MWh of lithium batteries.At a basic level a battery system can be brought online to produce power almost instantly, Gas generator maybe 15 minutes, Coal power station hours, possibly days.To get around the spin up time on fossil fuel generators, they leave at least one spinning, burning up fuel just in case, then charge power retailers thousands of dollars extra when the power is needed.So first task the battery has is to step in when something fails, like a severe storm bringing down multiple transmission lines or the gas generators being disconnected after a HV circuit breaker exploded and caught fire.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-03/sa-urged-to-conserve-electricity-as-power-units-goes-offline/8323354129MWh of batteries gives 1hr 17.4minutes to get another generator online, or to repair minor faults. If things are really bad then do a controlled disconnect of factories/suburbs, instead of pulling the plug on interstate power links.The batteries can replace expensive to run gas generators, for peak demand, especially short spikes.At least one of these big black outs was due to gas being too expensive, so the gas generator wasn't being run.I might do a post on all the bullshit claims in this thread and others.

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 09:33:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 09, 2017, 12:48:10 amDave, I know the Australian people who'll be involved. What's the best way to get the details to you?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 09:57:18 am
content: Quote from: MadTux on July 09, 2017, 01:52:02 amOn cars they give 8 year warranty on them and by that time they generally have more than 80% of the capacity left. BTW lithium batteries wear out a lot because in consumer electronics maximum capacity is squeezed out of them. If charge is limited to around 80%, their lifespan increases multiple times.QuoteSuper "green" solution. While lead is prohibited in electronics in EU and increasing number of other countries, let's build even more lead batteries. And I didn't notice them being that reliable long term. Lead acid batteries used in UPS, even those where they are sufficiently cooled, last less than Li-ion in Tesla cars.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 11:17:16 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 09, 2017, 09:57:18 amOnly lead is a no-go? Nowadays also mercury-filled thermometers are, and many other products... Not to mention adhesives and glues: Loctite don't even ship certain products to the EU, and so on, you have to have a permit to buy fertilizers and all that kind of products... Keeping up like this I'm afraid we have to defend the periodic table from politicans and the media!Another idiotic thing I've never understood so far: producing lead-based boards in EU is illegal whereas importing them from china is not.... Not to mention that lead-free based alloys are very expensive and they offer poor results...

author: RedSky
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 12:25:18 pm
content: Quote from: MadTux on July 09, 2017, 01:52:02 amLithium Ion batteries can last a very long time when treated carefully. Generally Lithium Ion can only manage less than a thousand full discharge/recharges and after that you will end up with a battery less than 75% of original capacity, however, restrict the state of charge range and they can last for tens of thousands of cycles. Much more than you would get from Lead Acid, and at a much better round trip efficiency.We have all had lithium batteries fail early, but put in better management, and hundreds of the things in parallel, they are reliable.See this reference, which may or may not be 100% applicable or scientific, but you get the idea:http://blog.evandmore.com/lets-talk-about-the-panasonic-ncr18650b/Also there are numerous articles about the real world capacity loss of Tesla batteries (18650 Panasonic's) which have a fairly hard life but are losing very little capacity for the amount of cycles they have gone through.(Disclaimer: i run half my house on GEL batteries, they have now hit 7 years and are cycled up to 30% depth of discharge daily, really very good, however if Lithium Ion was a similar price, i'd change..)

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 12:39:49 pm
content: I thought nickel-iron was the way to go for this type of application?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 01:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on July 09, 2017, 11:17:16 amLead acid batteries are still allowed in the EU and the production of boards with leaded solder is too.It's selling new consumer electronics containing certain substances such as mercury, cadmium and lead which is illegal in the EU. Lead acid and Nicad batteries are exempt from the legislation, as they're widely recycled.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 03:36:34 pm
content: Hopefully this also won't end up with the world's largest lithium battery fire

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 04:25:02 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 09, 2017, 09:57:18 amTelcos have been using lead-acid wet cells for about a century. They have a 20 or 25 year pro-rated warranty. Large standby power applications are perfect for lead-acid wet cells. Maintain them properly, add a bit of water when necessary, give them an equalize charge when necessary, and they'll almost last forever.Ed

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 04:45:45 pm
content: As far as I know, Elon Musk isn't selling lead-acid batteries.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 05:14:19 pm
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on July 09, 2017, 04:25:02 pmIt's my understanding that Telcos generally use sealed, AGM-VRLA batteries. They have several advantages over FLAs for stand by applications: No maintenance (no watering or equalizing needed), lower self discharge, better charge/discharge efficiency, and higher peak current delivery.The advantage that lithium batteries bring is higher cycle life and the ability to discharge deeply (to 20% or so SOC) without impacting cycle life, very high charge/discharge efficiency and high peak current delivery capability.Someone mentioned nickel iron batteries. Their only advantage is near infinite cycle life. But it comes at a great cost: Very high maintenance costs (watering and electrolyte replacement) and very poor charge/discharge efficiency.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 06:57:10 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on July 09, 2017, 04:45:45 pmCorrect. Tesla only uses Lithium batteries AFAIK. But that doesn't mean that Lithium is the best battery for standby applications. But it is new and sexy. Time will tell whether it's an appropriate and economical technology for this application.Ed

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 07:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 09, 2017, 05:14:19 pmFor small or unmanned installations AGM-VRLA batteries make sense. But for big manned sites, it's hard to beat the old flooded wet cells. You can buy cells that will provide 500A for 8 hrs! Add the 20 year life, the low cost and easy availabilty of the materials and the maturity of the technology and lead-acid is hard to beat.QuoteNow factor in the relative rarity, high cost, and volatility of the materials and the relatively low maturity of the technology and the decision of lead-acid vs. Lithium becomes a lot harder.There are lots of areas where Lithium is the clear winner. But not always.Ed

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 09:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on July 09, 2017, 07:13:43 pmBut don't large, manned sites have reliable grid power? Also, from a strictly economic sense - large, manned, grid powered intallations are likely better served by generator back-up as are hospitals, etc. I wasn't aware that large, manned Telco sites employed battery back up.QuoteAlso true for sealed LA, though granted upfront cost is higher, though lower maintenance cost and better charge/discharge efficiency may negate that over the lifetime. Also, another important advantage of sealed AGM- VRLA LAs is the ability to stack them in any orientation.QuoteRarity is less of an issue now. If cycled regularly lithium is now cost competitive due to better than LA cycle life and greater DOD capability allowing a smaller bank size to provide equivalent power.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 10:27:05 pm
content: In every factory, yield is the king... If he can use this as a place to sell lower quality cells that are not good enough for the cars but still work it is a great thing.. More yield..You guys forget that originally Tesla PowerWall was idea to reuse old, recycled car batteries that have decreased capacity but still work.. In fixed installations, volumetric and energy density is not as critical as for cars... So, in their Megafactory, they pump out cels, good ones go to cars, those with less capacity, for fixed installations...Also he needed this contract to show investors that his battery factory will be busy..With Tesla, it's all about strategic moves and PR to keep investors happy..

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 10:57:22 pm
content: This isn't a telephone exchange. Round trip efficiency was probably the deciding factor here. I'm pretty sure the battery is in an area with a pretty reliable power supply. It's just there to replace an idle fossil fuel powered generator and is an alternative to pumped gravity storage. They have a special deal with the power grid, so they can take electricity for next to nothing to charge the batteries when there's a surplus and sell it back to the grid at a premium, when there's a surge in demand.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 11:24:41 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 09, 2017, 09:54:38 pmI used to work for a telco. We had offices in small towns and big cities. In small towns, the offices were unmanned and didn't have generators. We used battery plants that were designed to keep the office running during an eight hour power failure. I think at least some (maybe all) of those sites were converted to AGM-SLA battery plants.Large offices had generators, but in case of a power failure it took a few minutes for the generator to start and stabilize enough that we could put the load on it. We used big battery strings (sometimes multiple strings) to carry the load until the generator was ready.Large UPS systems such as those used in a data center use similar batteries, but they typically run strings of 300V to 500V instead of telco voltages of ~50V. I don't know anything about the battery systems that power companies use.QuoteOrientation flexibility is important in small installations. If you've got a big empty room that you're going to fill with batteries, orientation doesn't matter.I was looking around for some pictures and found a video about a guy using submarine batteries. 25000 amp hoursHere's a picture of a small to medium size battery string. Each cell would be maybe 40 x 30 x 60 cm high. Looks like two 48 volt strings. Could be seperate or could be in parallel.http://www.iceteks.com/articles/telecomtour/images/batteryplantwallpaper.jpgHere's a messaage thread with a couple of good pictures of slightly larger battery strings.http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r29258588-large-Battery-back-upI didn't find any good pictures of really large telco or utility battery strings.Ed

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2017, 11:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on July 09, 2017, 11:24:41 pmThe plant I worked at had dual ~500MW units. Each unit had a primary DC bus of 120VDC rated at 2800AH. These were flooded lead acid with a design life of 20-25 years, very low maintenance. We had weekly water PMs and an annual load test.You'd be surprise how often a power plant with a multiple feed switch yard ended up on DC power. We also had (4) 3MW (20) cylinder diesel generators that started automagically when certain faults were detected.

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 12:01:54 am
content: One great advantage of the Li-ion batteries is that they can be charged at the same rate as they can be discharged, Try that with a lead acid battery and you quickly have a dead lead acid battery.As the battery for the SA power farm is to take excess capacity produced from a wind farm it will be a requirement that it be able to soak up hte excess capacity immediately, without having to curtail the output from the wind generators.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 12:02:59 am
content: I just found a great link at Wikipedia that has a list of battery-powered utility plants around the world.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_stationThey don't give much info on most of them, but most of the battery types mentioned are various types of Lithium. The biggest one is in southern California - 100MW output for 4 hours. Tesla's system will be rated at 100MW for about 80 minutes.Ed

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 12:05:44 am
content: Quote from: rdl on July 09, 2017, 12:39:49 pmLion has improved a lot, and standardising on a single battery type/tech is lowering costs.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 06:39:44 am
content: I went to a Brisbane presentation by Tesla on Thursday night, predominantly about the Power Wall 2 and Tesla's manufacturing in this area.I don't know about the commercial side but the new Tesla Walls will be guaranteed for ten years (I think maximum drop of 30% output at the end of that time). The units will be exchanged if they fail during that period.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 05:01:06 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on July 09, 2017, 08:21:24 amPlease do.There's a lot of good reasons to put this type of system on the grid. Frequency service, peak shaving, etc. I'm not sure how well these systems do at providing reactive power, maybe you do. Where I live, we are incredibly fortunate to have hydro that provides these services cheaply. For those without hydro, it's usually a gas turbine on some form of warm/hot standby. A battery system is certainly an attractive alternative and could be an economical alternative - particularly with respect to cost avoidance of major outages.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 11:55:27 pm
content: I presume these battery systems have an inverter type output, are these capable of (or adaptable to) providing rapid reverse power flow (low impedance S12) ie for phase /frequency stability during uncertain events /times? From a non EE perspective , the frequency/phase and voltage stability of hydro looks really nice. But battery would be even quicker 'on' I suspect.As a young man, my father was one of the consultant engineers for the Snowy hydro scheme, I remember standing on the top of the turbine, which was initially in synch with the mains, and over 30secs they opened the penstock - so unimpressive! Nothing changed. I recall the old phrase 'whispering hush-power'.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 12:57:40 am
content: Wouldn't it make more sense to spread out the batteries so that they would offer effective protection against grid equipment failure? In other words, put a UPS in every building? The majority of commercial customers and a significant percentage of residential customers would even pay for it if the price is right.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 01:58:35 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 11, 2017, 12:57:40 amDistributed would be much more robust, putting units of this size around cities in the industrial areas. 130MWh is small on the scale of a city.Its all about the economics of it, residential users can't access the fluctuating market prices only fixed time of use tariffs. It will be interesting to see if the Tesla installation has a negotiated access or pricing.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 02:04:20 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 11, 2017, 01:58:35 amI'll reiterate from above that the primary purpose of the battery is NOT power delivery/backup power. Also, economies of scale almost universally favor large installations over small systems, both on CAPEX and OPEX. Given the grid services the battery is to provide, a distributed installation may actually be less useful and reliable than a central, large-scale system.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 03:12:37 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 11, 2017, 02:04:20 amIts not the primary purpose but one that is being actively advertised by the government:https://www.premier.sa.gov.au/index.php/jay-weatherill-news-releases/7736-tesla-to-pair-world-s-largest-lithium-ion-battery-with-neoen-wind-farm-in-saEven for an arbitrage/daily storage role distributed storage around load centres would places less demand on the grid infrastructure and provide more reliability. Backing the fluctuating intermittent renewable generation is where the idea started:https://energystoragealliance.com.au/s-wants-first-round-battery-storage-offers-within-two-weeks/Putting in large energy sources/sinks is complex and large storage facilities pair/balance well when co-sited close to the intermittent renewable sourcesornear the loads. Given the variability of wind and solar on a site by site basis compared to the sustained and predictable demands of industry I'd suggest that the more efficient solution (from an energy perspective) would be co-siting storage at/near the load. OPEX is enhanced by placing such a facility in a built up area, while the land prices are poor from a CAPEX perspective so its all a balancing act.The proposed battery is being promised to do a lot of things, of which it might do few well.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 12:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 11, 2017, 12:57:40 amThis isn't the only battery to be built, there are others I know about.The reason for sitting the battery next to the generator (wind/solar) is so you don't have to pay grid transit costs for the energy used to charge the batteries. Added bonus if there is an oversupply of power, rather than shutting down a wind turbine, you charge the battery directly from it.Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 11, 2017, 12:57:40 amCommercial customers are still free to purchase their own Powerpack for local backup, some US companies have already. Tesla have an online tool to design Powerpack systems that give out the prices.Quote from: LabSpokane on July 10, 2017, 05:01:06 pmI did manage to dig that information up for you. Bear in mind this is for the Powerpack1 inverter, Tesla now make their own version for which there is no datasheet I can find.https://www.dynapowerenergy.com/products/inverter-for-tesla-powerpack/Quote from: PDFAlso talks about it being suitable for microgrids.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 06:48:33 pm
content: station240,Thanks for the link. I'm impressed that it does full four quadrant, 0-1PF. What's curiously missing is the ramp rate. Also curiously missing is whether the frequency can be set dynamically based on a synchrophasor.I realize the ramp rate is virtually infinite compared to other sources but it's still a competitive metric.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 07:32:52 pm
content: At the military base I was last stationed at they had a generator on each section used for standby interruptable power, which came on line 30s after the mains died. there was also a UPS supply for the computers and the main ATE minicomputer, though it used a battery bank to get the ride through ability for the genset to come on line.The ATC however had a different arrangement, they had a nice large bunker array, which housed a massive diesel and jet fuel tank complex, along with a large bermed room containing 6 1MVA diesel engines and gensets, which was the backup power. These were always ready, with one running for 24 hours at a time, with the alternator synchronised with the incoming mains, acting as a synchronous capacitor. At power fail this outgoing current flow would trigger a disconnect of the incoming mains, and a supply of power to the load side, while another 2 gensets were force started and allowed to stabilise for 30 seconds, and then they were synchronised to the first one to spread the loading out, with them then running all together until the incoming mains had returned for a half hour or so. That was so the ATC radars, the primary processors and the whole ATC complex was never without power, and the tank system had enough fuel in it to run without incoming mains for a month or more. 6 gensets so you could have a pair fail with no issue, even with one of the rest being on a scheduled maintenance outage.