Suggestion Regarding Forum Boards - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 04:31:29 pm
content: This forum is growing fairly fast. I'm wondering if now is not the time to add more boards to make it easier for people to go directly to the test equipment topics they want to read.For example theTest Equipmentboard under the categoryElectronics.SuggestionI beliveTest Equipmentranks high enough to have it's own stand alone category and add boards as follows:OscilloscopesDMMsFunction GeneratorsPower Supplies...There are plenty of posts to warrant these different devices as having their own boards. As far as moving the 42 pages of existing posts to the new boards, I would volunteer to help move them to the proper new boards. I could probably have it done in a week or so of spare time. No big rush though.Thoughts?

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 04:39:56 pm
content: I've always felt the more categories you have to look through the more chance yo have to miss something you might be interested in and the less replies you will get. If you only want to read the recent discussions on "Oscilloscopes" just put it in the search and scroll down through that. As for me, I find test equipment in general interesting and since I check once that a day or hit "show unread posts since your last visit" I don't think I miss much and don't have to sort through a lot that does not interest me.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 04:58:38 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on June 22, 2013, 04:39:56 pmThat's not what I've found. I've found that information correctly categorized works a whole hell of a lot better.

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 05:33:46 pm
content: I'm with SLJ on this one. I scan the unread messages quickly to find what's of interest. On forums with large numbers of sections, I miss a lot of what I'd be interested in because I only look at a few sections.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 05:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: Jon Chandler on June 22, 2013, 05:33:46 pmWho's talking about unread messages? That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Besides, even if I was talking about unread messages, that wouldn't affect what you see at all in the slightest bit. You don't seem to understand that.QuoteUh, well then ... you shouldn't look at "only a few sections".That's not the forum's fault, that's your fault. Besides, as time goes on the test equipment board will have so many topics it will be impractical to browse, if that isn't already the case. So really your points aren't valid.My opinion follows, but it's based on years of experience running forums.Leaving the boards as is and leaving it up to search isn't the best way to go forward. Here's why. If somebody comes here and is interested in oscilloscopes as a personal interest category, they'll first look for a board about oscilloscopes. Not finding it, they might search for "oscilloscope". But guess what you're going to get. Results like this -"I used an oscilloscope last night to help me fix ...""I never learned about oscilloscopes LOL ...""I own DMMs, signal generators, oscilloscopes, ...""I found a beat up oscilloscope at a garage sale but didn't buy it ..."See? All those search results don't really contain any information about oscilloscopes per se, yet they will pop up, and the longer you let it go the more spurious search results a person will have to sift through. Yea you can sit there and keep refining the search, but that isn't really my idea of fun forum browsing experience. That's not what search is for anyway. Search isn't there to generate a new board category for you to browse. It's there to help you find a very specific answer to a criteria you need an answer to.Leaving it all mixed up for browsing isn't the way to go either, because the more time goes on, the more pages of topics will accumulate as I've said and the ones at the far end of history will just never be looked at..It's much better to have all the specific posts about oscilloscopes in one board to scroll through. Same with the other types of major test equipment. That's why forums have these customization settings - so you can organize it the best way possible.It's going to be much, much better to get the boards going right before you've got 247pages(which amounts to thousands of topics) of test equipment threads all mixed in with one another. At that time it's going to be obvious it's not going to work but it'll be a huge effort to straighten it out by then.Hey - it's no skin off my back, I'm just trying to help, and I put my money where my mouth is by volunteering to sort out the threads into the new boards. If it isn't done it won't hurt my feelings, but IMHO, I'm right about this.

author: WBB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 06:40:02 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 22, 2013, 04:31:29 pmI think that would be a nice improvement. "Test equipment" has become too broad. I little refinement would be nice.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 06:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: WBB on June 22, 2013, 06:40:02 pmOf course it would. Dave is a big success and his forum is growing from a startup to a real Player. It might have been OK to have it the way it was at the git go, but I'm beginning to come back to this forum and see 2 - 3 new pages of posts after half a day away. That's great growth, but it's going to catch up to the original board layout really quickly now.Oh, and I forgot something.The guests.It's not only about the members, it's about the unregistered guests browsing the forum. Look at this -485 Guests, 209 Users (9 Hidden)^^^ see that? There's more guests than registered users all the time.Guests can't see "new replies" because they don't log on. If guests are coming here and looking for discussions about oscilloscopes because that's their fancy, they won't find a board for that. They will find a single board that has all the test equipment dumped in together. Yes sir - 42 pages, 22,300 posts and 1038 topics. It's all there. All mixed in for your enjoyment. Scopes, DMMs, signal generators, power supplies. It's all there if you have the time to go through it all. But, if it's too much trouble to browse through all that to find the topic they are interested in, will they go elsewhere and not join?Quote from: SLJ on June 22, 2013, 04:39:56 pmSLJ,Using your logic "the more categories you have to look through the more chance yo  have to miss something", why have any categories at all then? I mean, after all, you might miss something if they are separated right? You can't move your mouse from one board to another, even though you might miss something? Even if DMM and oscilloscopes were separated, and you were looking in the oscilloscope board, you would think to yourself -"Man, I wish the DMM posts were here in the oscilloscope board! I'm too lazy to go to the DMM board though, so I guess I'll miss those posts! Damn xrunner and his ideas!"Well SLJ, why not just dump all the EEVBlog forum posts into one huge board calledAll The EEVBlog Postsboard?and call it a day?I mean, it's a valid category right? All the posts here are in the EEVBlog forum, so if they're dumped in one board called All The EEVBlog Posts board they're in a logically proper category and you won't miss a thing.Now, you know why that isn't done though right? I know you do. So, when you refute that ^^^ (as is easy to do), you will have refuted your very own argument against adding specific boards for the different test equipment.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 06:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 22, 2013, 06:54:37 pmConsidering how on-topic we generally manage to stay, I say it's as good a category as any!Or, how about this:- New Posts- Off-Topic- Train Wrecks

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 07:02:34 pm
content: Over-boarding a forum is a concern, but what I'm suggesting isn't overboarding for a forum of this type.For a large test equipment forum this is not over-boarding -Category -Test EquipmentBoards -OscilloscopesSignal GeneratorsDMMsPower Supplies...Thisis over-boardingCategory -OscilloscopesBoards -Agilent OscilloscopesRigol OscilloscopesTektronix OscilloscopesCategory -DMMsBoards -Rigol DMMsAgilent DMMsUNI-T DMMs...^^^ That's over-boarding.Search your feelings deep down - you know I'm right.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 11:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 22, 2013, 07:02:34 pmFLUKE dammit! Don't leave poor Fluke out! What the hell is this UNI-T crap?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 11:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 22, 2013, 11:29:01 pmFluke. Right. You got it. Whatever it takes - that's my attitude.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 11:47:37 pm
content: I'd sort of like to see a hardware hacking board for stuff like the famous rigol hack or adding more ram to the Atten to increase its depth etc.I used to do some firmware hacks on Dell laptops back when they used the same board in two models. One trick was you couldn't use the Latitude docks on the Inspirons unless you flashed the Latitude firmware in the Inspiron.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:09:27 am
content: I guess it needs a poll...Sure, I can just Make It So, but if the fragmentation annoys a lot of people, I don't want that.I think last time we ran such a poll, there were a lot of people who didn't like the many boards idea, but we did add a couple.Moving posts isn't too hard, it can be done by bulk checkbox, would maybe take an hour or so.

author: manticore00
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:26:17 am
content: I'm still an FNG so weight my opinion accordingly... but I agree that the Test Equipment section for sure is a good candidate for subdividing into sections for types of equipment as Xrunner suggests.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:45:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 23, 2013, 12:09:27 amFirst, like I said Dave it's your baby, and my feelings won't get hurt in any case.The only thing I would say (from experience) is that the poll may only reflect what people are used to, i.e., it may reflect a desire against change. This is human nature. You are the boss though. If you sleep on it and decide that change is best for the future, the poll may disagree with you based on the desire that people have against change.This is something you have to decide apart from mass opinion.Again, I only wish you the most success possible, hence this thread.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 01:56:14 am
content: Test Equipment would most likely be the easiest to put sub categories in even though it's not the largest. It will take more policing to keep everything in it's place. There's other categories that have test equipment posts through out them them also. It's Dave's board so it's up to him. I just think looking through even more categories will be a pain and I know from running other forums in the past that having sub categories is a deterrent for some to participate. The "what(enter DMM, oscilloscope, power supply here)should I buy?" could be a sub category all by itself but if it was separate after a while many would avoid it because many of the same replies are regurgitated over and over. Won't make much difference to anyone checking in everyday as the "Show unread posts since last visit" is still the easiest way to see what's happening across the board.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 02:18:52 am
content: Quote from: SLJ on June 23, 2013, 01:56:14 amThanks for responding. I have some very pointed views and I don't mean to turn anyone off because of them.If you are depending on the unread replies to make a list for you to read, it won't be the least bit affected by any board re-arrangement.But if you are looking for specific sorts of test equipment information, it's going to be easier to locate it.That's just a simple fact.Either way, it's a win-win scenario. I don't see any reason at all why it would be worse than it is now.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 02:47:44 am
content: Isn't the test equipment section here fairly new? Maybe I'm thinking of another forum but I seem to remember Dave moving stuff into it just a couple of months ago.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 02:59:15 am
content: Quote from: SLJ on June 23, 2013, 02:47:44 amI don't recall, unfortunately. However, it really doesn't fundamentally affect the logic behind my suggestions.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:39:52 pm
content: Doing a search will always be the easiest way to find information on a specific topic or model number. Adding subcategories might help with browsing for general information on a DMM or scope but it will create more work for the admin as things will still get posted in the incorrect category. The same questions will still get asked over and over as many never bother to look through a category or search to see if their question has been asked anyway. There will be less answers to questions as there will be less members looking at each sub category but maybe the traffic here is now at a level that it won't make much difference. Again, It's Dave's call and he's the one that will have to do the additional work to maintain it. I don't really care it just makes more places to have to look through.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 01:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on June 23, 2013, 02:47:44 amYes, it wasn't that long ago.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 01:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on June 23, 2013, 12:39:52 pmYes that's true, and I said that. No matter how many boards there are the search will still look at them all. It makes no difference whatsoever to the search engine. But your issue with organizing into proper categories seems to be that it's harder to browse. I just don't buy that at all. Sorry.QuoteI doubt that will be a big problem with simply organizing the test equipment into proper boards. In fact I think it will be very obvious to anyone that a board titled "Oscilloscopes" isn't the place for a question about DMMs. I know the general population can be dense, but I really don't think they're that dense.QuoteWelcome to managing forums. That's a problem with any type of forum. The answer is - don't start a forum and expect it to manage itself, especially if it starts to get big and busy. The solution, especially for a growing forum, is to add board moderator volunteers to help keep it all straight. This is just forum managing 101. Basic, basic stuff. Do what you have to do and ask for volunteers to help. This problem is as old as forums themselves.QuoteI just don't understand how you are forming this opinion. I really don't SLJ. If a member logs in and clicks on "unread posts", they see, if they wish to, all the new posts in a list according to the time is was posted, all the posts are unrelated to each other. So the sort-of un-sorted list you seem to love is there for you or anyone else every day. But then you seem to think that having oscilloscopes and DMMs on different boards will limit "answers to questions". How?My logic is that it's a big mess now. All the test equipment is thrown into a blender in one thread. You seem to think that people who are specifically interested in DMMs have to suffer your desires and look through all the posts just to find what they are looking for, and no, as I demonstrated, search won't help them in a general way. Quite the contrary, answers will be better when it's organized, because the people most able to answer specific categories of test equipment will see easier the board they are most interested in. But will that restrict them from other boards? NO! That's where I just completely lose your logic. Anyone can go to any board they want to go to, but leaving it the way it is forces people to wade through one post after another whether they want to or not. To my mind, that just frustrates people, not encourage answers. Why do you want to force people who don't have the slightest interest in, say, power supplies, to look through a jumbled board called simply "Test Equipment" and wade through tens or hundreds posts they don't want to see?QuoteYep it's his baby. I'm just giving suggestions because I have a lot of experience with forms. If I didn't care about this forum I wouldn't bother to sit here and type out these answers. It's no skin off my back if it's not done. I'll sleep just fine either way, but I do think it will improve the forum, else I wouldn't be so emphatic about it.Just think about the future. What happens when there are 500, 700, 1000 pages of test equipment posts all dumped in the one board we have now? That ain't a pretty picture. By then it's going to be a Royal Pain in the ass to do anything about it. Yea you can go through and check boxes and move threads, I know all about that, but it takes a lot of time to make sure each thread gets moved properly because the title isn't always an obvious indicator of what's in the thread. That means you have to at least skim the contents of the first post sometimes.For example you might see threads like these:"Magic smoke appears!""Something new on my bench!""How do I measure with this thing?"What type of test equipment are those posts about? Who knows, the title is useless. You have to read the post to understand. That's what I mean. Trying to sort through 500 threads someday and dechiper where each one gets moved will be a really long process.Come to think of it, that's another reason to get the different types of test equipment sorted out into different boards. If you are looking at the DMM board and see those post titles, at least you know what you're basically dealing with. If it's in the wrong board, then a moderator can move it to the proper board. That's one of the moderator's jobs. Basic, basic forum operations here. Old as the hills.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 02:50:27 pm
content: 1000 or 5000 posts doesn't really have that much effect at this point. Some of the antique radio and HAM forums have sections with well over a quarter million posts without sub categories. Doesn't seem to be a problem there but if your only interested in oscilloscopes then a separate category is fine. I know you don't seem to understand but from past experience every time you add a sub category the traffic in it drops. The plus side is you will have less visitors seeing the posts that really don't care or want to participate in those conversations. The negative side is you will have less visitors that might get interested by reading and participating in those posts because they never saw them. My point is it's not always as positive a thing as you think it is. Still, as I have already said, there might be enough traffic here now to support test equipment sub categories. If Dave decides to try it I would suggest taking a general look at the posts and pick maybe the top three or four and move recent discussions on that subject there and then leave the general category untouched. I'm not sure function generators rates high enough but your suggestion of oscilloscopes, DMMs, power supplies, and then maybe soldering equipment as those posts are all over the place, might be a good start.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 05:36:45 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on June 23, 2013, 02:50:27 pmI don't have a clue what forums you are commenting on so I can't even respond. As far as I know perhaps they could benefit from a re-organization. I just have no idea because I have no information on them.QuoteAdding a new category doesn't cause the traffic in it to drop, because by definition, it never existed before you added it. So the traffic in a new category can only go up from Zero.QuoteWell then SLJ, as I said before, why stop there? If you're keen on making all the members read through as many posts they aren't interested in as possible, because it's your theory that maybe, just maybe, somebody will get interested in a topic they wouldn't have seen before, then I ask you again - why not just make one board for the entire forum? By your logic, a person just interested in test equipment should be forced to look through all the posts in "Microcontrollers & FPGA's" because - oh my - they might miss something they never would have seen before. It's the exact same logic you are using now.So why not combine those two boards? Now you (I think) know what's wrong with that, so by the same token, that's why you are wrong about the test equipment board. It's not for you or me to make people look through posts they aren't interested in. And if they are separated out, there is nothing whatsoever stopping any member from looking at any board, except their own disinterest or laziness. But, that's not your or my concern. People are adults and can do as they wish.QuoteReally there is no downside, because you can always dump everything back together again. But I don't think that would happen.

author: Anson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 06:04:22 pm
content: As a former forum owner (on a different topic). I can say that organization of categories on a forum can be very important. But it can also be over done. A general rule to take is if a category has more new or active topics than the first two pages of topics then it should be broken down into more categories. I found that on the forum I ran topics on the second and subsequent pages of topics were viewed less and less but when moved into a different category with less active topics its views greatly increased. So the topics were still of interest it was just being overlooked.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 06:19:39 pm
content: I sold a large forum (different topic also) to a magazine a few years ago. They quickly added several subcategories and even though they had their magazine backing it, it dropped in members and posts. When they asked me what they were doing wrong and went back to the original format their traffic steadily increased. I doubt adding two or three subcategories would have that effect here but the point is adding subcategories is something not to be taken lightly. There is no right or wrong answer here in spite of what some think, some might work, some might not. Just stating what I have found in the past.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 06:25:07 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on June 23, 2013, 06:19:39 pmEmphasis on "quickly".I bet that was more "Gee, I wonder what they're going to do with it now that they just bought it - oh shit, they're making a ton of changes, they're going to ruin it" than anything. If you've just bought a forum full of members, you need to first show them you can handle it without running it into the ground before you start changing things.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 06:34:59 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on June 23, 2013, 06:19:39 pmAgain, there are too many unknown variables for me to comment on what happened.What were the categories? Maybe they were dumb choices.Were the members just upset about change? If so you have to give it time.Were people upset that it was sold and then changed? That's what it sounds like to me. They just had a mini "revolt" but the essence of the change really wasn't the issue.I can comment on this forum because I participate in it. When you make claims about other forums and what happened there (but never even link us to them), and don't really add any insight other than "it dropped in members and posts" because a change was made, I can't take you seriously. There's just no way for me to know what was really the causal factor.QuoteI think you are over-reacting a bit SLJ. My goodness ... all I'm suggesting is a logical extension of an expanding category. All I'm suggesting is adding several of the most popular test equipment categories as boards. Oscilloscopes, DMMs, power supplies, even a few more. That's all. Then have a catch-all for the rest like this -Category -Test EquipmentBoards -OscilloscopesDMMsPower SuppliesSignal Generatorsone or two more here ..Any other test equipment goes hereI mean geez - is that really so radical that the EEVBlog forum will self-destruct?

author: WBB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 07:02:39 pm
content: Sub-categorizing can definitely be overdone but I don't think this is a case of it. If you start a forum with all the categories that would be applicable for a more mature forum, the place will seem practically dead. On the flip side, if a forum never adds categories and keeps what would be more appropriate for a new forum, then everything just runs together into a jumbled mess. As this (or any) forum grows there will be a need for new sub categories until finally reaching a nice balance between topics and categories.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 01:55:20 am
content: No where have I said it will self destruct. There are things to consider when deciding to add categories. It's not as cut and dry as you might think. Especially when it's someones livelihood. It's more admin work and the choices must be made carefully. A plus would be that if he adds subcategories and they are used extensively he might be able to sell more targeted advertising on them.We both have our opinions and we are now just wasting electrons.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 02:32:59 am
content: SL,Still not going to link us to the forums you've been using as examples?

author: uprightsquire
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 03:05:47 am
content: If the active posts in a board aren't spilling over into a second page, surely splitting board up further is making it harder to keep on top of current posts, not easier. I think that when this happens is a logical point to break a board up.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 03:55:44 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 24, 2013, 02:32:59 amMaybe more people would support your idea if you weren't being so combative. Let the proposal stand on its merits.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 04:03:45 am
content: Quote from: gxti on June 24, 2013, 03:55:44 amYou think that's combative? That's nothing compared to what goes on at some of the other forums I frequent.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 04:26:49 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 24, 2013, 04:03:45 amI once got banned from a former employer's company private forums for talking too much politics.Hell, what's a guy to do when the forum is full of a bunch of people with the wrong political opinions?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 05:04:49 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on June 24, 2013, 04:26:49 amI got banned from Altiums forum!

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 07:36:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2013, 05:04:49 amOutstanding! Was it simply because you were no longer an employee or was it because you were too opinionated?Funny thing was, shortly before getting banned I was contacted by someone to invite me to another "secret" forum for employees that the "mother ship" did not have access to. There I found a lot of the same people who on the main forum were constantly towing the company line and were big cheerleaders. But here were very critical of the company nickel and diming their customers for extra support revenue also there were many former employees who predicted the downward spiral of this division a few years ago before they got let go.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 01:39:22 am
content: I just tried to log into the Arduino forum and found out I was banned!They just can't take criticism.http://forum.arduino.cc/