*Rant* Question I asked at a Job interview. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mictas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 01:45:34 am
content: So, today I was taken to a mobile phone and tablet repair shop, by my employment agent. The store I will leave out its name.We go to a room above the main floor, where someone was working on a phone, he was asked to leave. I do not recall seeing him wearing any gloves. I could see a bunch of Hakko equipment, that looks real, but who knows.Anyway, towards the end of the interview, I asked, "What do you do for ESD?"Answer, from who I guess was the big boss, "We don't have anything"I was not in the mood to talk to those two to begin with.I am the kind of person who freaks out, when I don't ware gloves in my workshop.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 01:53:10 am
content: Were the floors nicely carpeted?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:05:33 am
content: Unpopular opinion follows. I've been working with electronics my entire adult life, and I yet to kill anything due to ESD. With normal precautions (lay off wool clothing in winter time), ESD is not all that dangerous.Will you also freak out if it turns out they don't use Flukes and $5000 scopes to fix phones?This is a repair shop, that needs to run though a lot of phones to make any profit. Putting gloves on an off is a waste of time.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:14:53 am
content: Quote from: mictas on December 18, 2017, 01:45:34 amFirst time I've heard about a need to wear gloves in an electronics workshop. What for, exactly?

author: mictas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:33:11 am
content: Quote from: hermit on December 18, 2017, 01:53:10 amI knew there was something I should have looked at, the coin mining rig, kind of caught my eye when I first entered the room.Quote from: blueskull on December 18, 2017, 02:02:57 amO, I know how things work in the real world, I have seen it before. It just really struck me, how it seemed the guy had no idea what I was talking about. That and the $15,000 to $30,000 or more worth of hakko equipment, you'd think they could have splurged for a better working mat.Now if these guys had a JBC soldering station, it would have perked my interest.Quote from: ataradov on December 18, 2017, 02:05:33 amNope, because there are other and better brands out there, then just the almighty fluke. I have a $50 scope to play with SMD stuff and I have seen shops on Youtube use the same thing to fix phones/ laptops, that and the microscope they had, looked to be with a at least $5000, but could be more.Quote from: IanB on December 18, 2017, 02:14:53 amI know this isn't for me, but I have leaned its so much better not to get your finger prints all over everything, like LCD screens and hard to clean plastic/glass, covers and what not. Besides, its an extra protection from getting a little jolt.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:54:01 am
content: For myself, I have am intellectually in a very awkward position. I have an alright amount of somewhat general EE knowledge, but not having gone to school for it (yet), I'm not aware of a lot of the details.My hobby is the construction of legacy computers. Stuff from the 486 period to the very late AM2+ period for the moment. I have not given two shits about ESD. I have a wrist (or leg) strap, but I just don't use it (not to mention there isn't a decent post for me to ground it. I have never killed anything with an ESD, and I do not forsee myself doing so.This doesn't mean to say that there should never be any ESD precautions taken. I do take care to work on non conductive static free environments (no shoes, wood/laminate floor, wood/particleboard table). However even when working on stuff on carpet or on my bed (Yes, I did actually work on an iMac G3 on my bed as it was the subjectively best place to do it for me considering the big fragile CRT monitor).It does seem odd that the people there with that level of equipment and a coin miner don't at least have some sort of ESD mat or something. Gloves I can sort of understand, as a decent wipe with something like Isopropyl Alcohol would be fine. Then again, if they never have broken (presumably an already broken) a device while working on it from ESD, the aren't exactly having issues with it. If they did, they would have stuff in place to prevent that.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:17:48 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 18, 2017, 02:14:53 amI would wear gloves, not for the protection of the circuits, but your hands. If you've ever watched any of Rossmann's videos, he wears gloves just because consumer electronics can beNASTY. He's seen insects, hair, unidentifiable stains and crud inside. Excercise hygenic caution when handling other people's stuff, you don't know where it's been.

author: mictas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:30:09 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on December 18, 2017, 03:17:48 amWell that and my doctor has told me, that I have Dermatitis. Its where my hands dry out, crack and bleed.And yes, I have gotten blood over stuff I have been working on before, its a real pain when you are really into building something and bam, you have to stop a clean up all the blood. Its really sticky too.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:37:28 am
content: Quote from: mictas on December 18, 2017, 02:33:11 am*than

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:59:54 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 18, 2017, 02:05:33 amI agree with everything else in your message (I don't consider ESD precautions to be worthwhile in the home shop), but this sentence irks me. How can you be so sure? Have you ever had any component operate outside of spec? Have you ever had any project fail? Did you completely rule out ESD as a cause for any of those incidents? What would it take for you to consider that ESD caused a failure, and is that mechanism secure against confirmation bias?I'm not specifically aware of any ESD damage that I've caused, but I would never go so far as to claim that ESD damage has not occurred -- that's a huuuge leap that I can't honestly claim. Just a couple of weeks ago there was an OLED display that appeared to be dead on arrival -- but for all I know, I killed it via ESD as I removed it from the packaging.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:06:34 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on December 18, 2017, 03:59:54 amOk, I really can't claim that I never killed things with ESD. But I generally don't remember killing anything in an unknown way (possible ESD). So yes, it is possible, but it was not a systematic problem, so it is not worth spending extra time and hassle of doing a "proper way".ESD can cause invisible damage as well. That MCU you have touched by hand, now potentially has bigger leakage current. But again, this is not something I care about, except for some limited number of cases.And obviously, I will exercise more caution when bringing up some expensive board that was just assembled, over a $20 development kit that is readability available.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:52:35 am
content: Quote from: mictas on December 18, 2017, 03:30:09 amIn your particular case, gloves are probably a good idea, but most other people do not use themI, for instance, find them uncomfortable, & there is a loss of "feel" which detracts from my ability to do the job.Another thing I have never had good results with, is wearing safety glasses when soldering.If they were proper glasses with good optical properties, they would be OK, but usually, the ones supplied are general purpose plastic crud which blur & distort the work.I usually use my prescription specs & a maggylamp.The general purpose safety glasses are probably good if you are using a grindstone or something, but, personally, even with that kind of work, I prefer to use a full face shield, rather than either safety glasses or goggles, as it allows me to wear the prescription specs under it if I feel the work warrants it

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 05:17:32 am
content: A couple of things...ESD is not always a straight out killer as alluded to by Ataradov, HP (in the good ol' days) produced a great training film on the topic and showed the accumulated effect of ESD events, with electron microscope images. Essentially it weakened the device and lead to the possibility of an ELF (early life failure) / long term reliability issues.Now days, the ESD protection in devices is much better through design and materials used aaand not many consumer-type companies are interested in the long term reliability of a product (not, at least, beyond the warranty period).

author: mictas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 08:27:47 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 18, 2017, 04:52:35 amI do have persecution glasses myself, I find with my P2 paper respirator and rather awkward safety glasses, it can get a bit old, so I do find my desk mount magnifier lamp a life saver. I have been meaning to pop into bunnings and see if I can find some comfyer safety glasses.The photo I attached was a selfie, I took at work one day. Well back when I was working in a factory, the thing is, this still wasn't enough for me, I wasn't able to dawn my mask in a clean area.I still laugh at how I would look, but it was that or coughing up black goo. Now if only the new owners would find a new location to setup shop and take everything out of storage.I do use the same kind of safety glasses, when I am soldering.

author: Decoman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 08:47:25 am
content: With me not being that into electronics earlier in my life, having spent most time with arts, philosophy and language and other hobbies, my own hobbyist attitude to try prevent electrostatic discharge onto what is said to be very delicate computer components, is limited to first go to my kitchen then touch the metal sink, and ofc try avoid building up any electrostatic charge on my way back, before proceeding to do whatever I do when putting together PC desktop. I wonder how appropriate, or inappropriate doing this simple thing might be. Presumably, people that actually work with electronics for a living would have to be more careful than me.I remember one time, standing by my mailbox outside my apartment, and the very moment before my mailbox key was inserted into the lock, I saw this tiny blue lighting flash from the tip of the key, over to the mailbox.Imagine someone using a metallic object as a pointer in their hand, pointing closely at select electronic components.Also, I remember buying my epic intel Q6600 cpu one time, from a tray at this local store, but buying the cpu right off the tray I suddenly had nowhere to put it. The cpu die itself was protected only by the plastic cover that iirc was attached with two tiny clips.. and so, what I did next I remember, was to grab a new plastic bag with my left hand and opening it up a little.. and then jam my right right holding my cpu, down the only partially opened plastic bag.. and I could hear the static electricity cracking as I did that, and I thought "Uh, oh!". O) Luckily, the cpu appeared to work after that, though I have no idea if maybe there could have been instability issues I ignored because of that, in the five years I used that Q6600 cpu.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 09:25:30 am
content: Quote from: aargee on December 18, 2017, 05:17:32 amIn the mid 80s, when the broad extent of the partial damage issue was first properly understood, several organisations produced excellent written and video material on this topic. British Telecom produced some excellent material showing how the point of damage was often far from the pin to which the EOS was applied. Too many engineers are unaware of this body of work now, but nothing substantial has changed in modern parts. They tend to have more robust per pin protection, but this can easily be overwhealmed by bad handling.If you get called into a production facility with a high in factory ESD failure rate, try to check their warranty failures. You'll usually find a pretty high in the field failure rate as a consequence of EOS at the factory that didn't quite break things at the time.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 09:33:21 am
content: Once in an interview (IT company) when they told if I had any question, I asked what their back-up solution is. The answer was "We simply use RAID". After that I asked them "What happens when the file system fails and the controller starts synchronizing the array?". After a minute o silence I just left.Alexander.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 10:00:42 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 18, 2017, 02:14:53 amSo you dont leave fingerprint all over the customer's stuff.I had a collegue. He was soldering (without gloves, that almost fine) and cooling down the board by blowing air over it from his mouth. Of course the boards were not cleaned with IPA when he was finished.I asked him, if after the fingerprints and his saliva, is he going to place other bodily fluids on the board, or is he done?

author: mictas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 10:55:42 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 18, 2017, 10:00:42 amThis is totally off topic, but NAND, I am looking for a way to dump recovered BGA Nana chip, any advice on cheap hardware?Also back in the day, I did leave a few drops of blood inside a customers desktop, when it came back I did clean it. But it wasn't because of my bodily fluids

author: Pitrsek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 11:07:17 am
content: ESD sandals work surprisingly well. Even with ESD "friendly" carpet....

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 11:25:28 am
content: About the ESD thing here is my take. I have equipment that is well over tens of thousands of dollars. (ie 8563EC, 8340B, 5343A to name a few). Some irreplaceable or unobtainium. Yet I rarely even use a wrist strap. I even have worked on a carpet before with no problems. Why I have no problems is simple. I am 100% aware 100% of the time or at least try to be. Straps are a distraction for me so before I even touch any electronics I touch the grounded chassis of said equipment. I make sure to to lightly tap with my palm instead of using my pointed finger to discharge myself before doing any work even if I know I haven't charged myself. As for carpet, walk barefoot or in sandals like Dave does (depending on home or office). Socks are a huge NO for me. I have however worn socks on a carpet before as well but without incident. That is because I discharge myself. Any rubbing action I do, I touch the chassis as described above. Its a habit I've grown. No strap to tie me down if I have to move from one spot to another.From my own experience, even if they say at school X is wrong you'll find in the real world that X is kinda done anyways because it saves on time and money. Here is an example. I've worked in a medical lab before. In chemistry class they always tell you to pour waste in a collection container for proper disposal. At where I had worked, guess what. They told me to pour some waste down a common sink which doubled as the eye wash station.... even in the sight of the compliance/safety officer. So long as its "mainly composed of the simple chemicals" like ethanol, isopropanol, diluted bleach, etc. and not "really toxic" or flat out biological wastes. So for example raw blood is a major no-no but if it was bleached or "destructively processed" by heat, chemical reactions, etc during analysis then by all means pour it down. Bare in mind this lab is a CLIA/COLA and CAP certified lab and everyone even the surprise inspectors seem to not care.... The reasoning is this. Biological waste disposal is expensive via weight. The less weight, the more this lab and you will thrive. By the way, I don't personally agree with this practice myself but thats how it was and still is done.

author: Freelander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 12:19:47 pm
content: The op wouldn't appreciate the 'standard' 1960's / 70's practice of changing the car engine oil over a drainage grate then ?. A very common practice for the majority of people with no 'garage'.The ONLY concern was dropping the drain plug down the grate..... not good.I am even amazed when looking at 'mechanical' (car repair) videos with guys wearing pretty little gloves... why ?Always cleaned mucky oil off with clean oil and if needed, a bit of sugar, then - if needed, followed by 'fairy liquid' and sugar. Job sorted. Same with a bit of 'asbestos' brake dust - pah.. never hurt anybody.Darn tree huggers.As for ESD.. all a total conspiracy theory by the inventor of the knicker elastic electrocution band for when you pull the earth from the scope plug....

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:09:18 pm
content: QuoteThis place is getting darn near kinky.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 18, 2017, 02:05:33 amYou haven't had sudden or infant deaths? ESD is insidious in the sense that damage might only show up later. Or your part is unstable without a real explanation.I've had a couple of incidences where things quit working after handling them otherwise carefully. In one case, I actually registered the moment I zapped the part, which showed erratic behaviour afterwards. I've been more careful ever since.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:22:38 pm
content: I used to solder on a bit of polyester/wool carpet off-cut, used to hold the parts nicely in place.Never had any ESD problems but ditched it after posting some photos/videos of the stuff I was working on and getting non-stop ESD-fanboy grief.

author: Freelander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:39:32 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 18, 2017, 02:18:56 pmAnecdotal and oft repeated semi-woowoo.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: Freelander on December 18, 2017, 02:39:32 pmI'm sure "woowoo" is why serious players spend millions on ESD prevention. I guess they don't know what they're doing, as opposed to a bunch of amateurs and one man bands on a forum somewhere.I don't suppose you can do better than anecdotal evidence and "I've never killed anything so it's not a problem"?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: Freelander on December 18, 2017, 02:39:32 pmMr Scram's position agrees with extensive industry research. Your's doesn't.

author: Freelander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 02:58:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 18, 2017, 02:53:36 pmAfraid not. The woowoo is the 'later failure' or the oft recited 'insidious' type of damage.Protection is usually employed for the attempted elimination of 'instant' failure. NOT woowoo failure.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:06:27 pm
content: Quote from: Freelander on December 18, 2017, 02:58:40 pmYou mean RS components is wrong when it says both immediate failures and latent defects are caused by ESD damage? You might want to shoot them an email, because that's probably something they want to know.https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/what-is-esd-and-what-damages-can-it-causeQuoteOr maybe Electronic Design?http://www.electronicdesign.com/power/understanding-esd-and-eos-failures-semiconductor-devicesQuoteOr maybe the Scottish Qualification Authority?https://www.sqa.org.uk/e-learning/HardOSSupp05CD/page_27.htmQuote

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: Freelander on December 18, 2017, 02:58:40 pmTry looking through the research. It is common for protection diodes to be partially or fully damaged, without the chip failing. Later, even a modest EOS situation can result in failure of the device, because the protection is either weakened or missing. However, research in the 80s by British Telecom, AT&T and others showed that partially damaged devices would often fail later in normal use, even without further EOS events occurring. Once the results of this work lead to better static control being introduced at their suppliers, long term in use failures of ICs in the telephone network reduced considerably.

author: Freelander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:28:25 pm
content: Some packets of nuts have 'may contain nuts' written on them......................There has been a HUGE amount of work on IC protection - INTERNALLY. There are still warnings for the CYA factor of course.In the 'real world' the ridiculous practices of supposed esd protection simply do not happen.Some workshops though, do contain nuts and people who throw tins away after the sell by date ...............I believe 'dowsing' may help detect insidious damage though ? (according to the SQA)

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:38:42 pm
content: There is clearly a continuum across the best of breed industrial environment. down to the repair workshop above a retail store and down through to a bunch of amateurs and one man bands... down to the polyester under-pant wearing tech with their Styrofoam coffee cup learnt up against the device they are tinkering with.Sounds like the OP wants to go up-market. Nothing wrong with that aspiration.(I seem to remember a real world example of someone here describing something very expensive damaged by ESD.... so it's definitely a real scenario and if you care about MTBF then you should care about working practice).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:42:17 pm
content: Quote from: Freelander on December 18, 2017, 03:28:25 pmSimply not admitting you're wrong won't change you being wrong about this. It's been looked at very well by various parties who have a huge incentive for it not to be a problem. Yet it turns out it is, and people are spending billions to mitigate the issues. Calling it "woowoo" does nothing but show your own lack of understanding the subject.I'll leave it up to you to figure out how warning labels on products intended for the general public are different from industry standards followed by professionals, and why board houses and assembly plants still heavily invest in ESD mitigation, despite the fact that they're only handling fully built ICs with the built in protection in place.

author: Freelander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 03:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 18, 2017, 03:42:17 pm

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:01:22 pm
content: We found one of our products had a high field failure rate (It would pass soak then fail after a few weeks to a few months in in the field), all the failures were the SSD disk modules showing corruption.The cure? ESD mats and wrist bands in the area where the disk images were being loaded in production, problem stopped instantly and we have never had another early life failure on the disks in those products.No woowoo involved, we had an issue, we took ESD measures the issue went away, end of.Regards, Dan.

author: Freelander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on December 18, 2017, 04:01:22 pmSo, are you saying the SSDs were irreparably damaged............... ?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: Freelander on December 18, 2017, 04:20:29 pmHe's saying they showed latent failures, exactly like the ones you said earlier are "woowoo".You know, it's pretty awesome to be wrong. Being wrong means learning something you didn't know before. Being wrong means being a more knowledgeable person than you were yesterday. The only premise it that you have to concede to being wrong. Otherwise you're just condemned to being wrong every time.

author: Freelander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 18, 2017, 04:26:30 pmLatent failures - (in the context described) - old boy, are not necessarily damage to the SSD. No damage to the SSD is not a hardware failure.Stop making yourself so 'awesome'

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:30:31 pm
content: We found that we could reimage them, but that they would fail again sooner of later.These were MSATA modules in an industrial control system.Regards, Dan.

author: Freelander
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:40:39 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on December 18, 2017, 04:30:31 pmProbably a batch issue. Occam's Razor.Highly unlikely to have damaged the mSata modules. They are extremely robust.If you are happy with your solution though that is great.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 18, 2017, 02:05:33 amMy daughter has been walking into roads without looking all her life, and has yet to be killed.QuoteESD can cause subtle parametric shifts that may not cause problems until later. Low-end repair shops are unlikely to be concerned by that!

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 04:53:44 pm
content: Not a batch issue, we checked our records for that, having the ERP system record batch numbers is a good thing in general, it makes identifying when you **do** have a batch issue so much easier (And we have had that source of 'fun' as well)....One other tell was looking at failure against production month, we were seeing far more returns on stuff built Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb then we were in the summer months! Coincidence? I think not!Incidentally, be careful of consumer Flash cards and SSDs, they have a nasty habit of changing the technology while keeping the same model number, very annoying. The industrial vendors tend not to play this game for all that you are paying quite a lot more money (SD card vendors, looking at YOU!).Having records of who, when and which parts for everything going thru production and then being able to do stats on the returns is way cool BTW.Regards, Dan.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 05:02:19 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on December 18, 2017, 04:53:44 pmFiguring out the technology in an SD card can be nearly impossible, even though this can be an important indicator of performance and reliability. It often seems to be a closely guarded secret. SSD manufacturers seem to be much more open about his, though some occasionally pull a bait and switch.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 08:36:13 pm
content: I know that. 2 nominally identical Sandisk thumb drives, yet one has a quiescent current draw of around 50mA, and the other one is only 20mA. 50mA one rises to around 100mA on write, while the other will not exceed 40mA on a similar size similar speed block write.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 08:40:41 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 18, 2017, 02:02:57 amOh sure they are! About 2 decades ago I sold self assembled PCs. I assembled one in a non-ESD safe environment due to lack of space and almost every component in that PC broke down (I used the same components in every PC; it has to be ESD).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 08:50:33 pm
content: If you've been involved in customer support for a silicon vendor, you may well have found that the most frustrating activity can be dealing with customers who have failed to take adequate control of their static. You'll get a a complaint that someone is seeing a high failure rate of one of your devices at production test, and they want to know why your device is so crappy. You get a few failed devices back from the customer, often horribly packaged, and send them to the analysis lab. In a high percentage of cases the analysis comes back "EOS" (electrical over stress). Some of the time the reason is a poor circuit design, that does overstress the part under some circumstances the customer hasn't allowed for. Much of the time its because the customer hasn't controlled static properly in their production facility.If you are working with a reasonable customer things mightl go pretty smoothly from there. You do a site inspection, make some recommendations, and things are brought under control. However, in a percentage of cases you end up dealing with people in total denial. They've been building a billion boards a day for the last thousand years, and have never encountered such a problem before. It might be they've just moved from a more humid place, where they could get away with bad practices, and genuinely are seeing issues for the first time. Whatever the background might be, you need to get them past denial, because if you don't they will stop manufacture, and your revenue will fall. So, you have this difficult situation where the customer is being an idiot, but if you call them an idiot upper management will rush down to fire you.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 10:26:07 pm
content: how the real world works lolit works because people don't know what the fuck their doing nor do they understand the ramifications of their actionsno one cares if something gets zapped and gets sent to the customer in a degraded state. $$$$sad shit when you see it done to a 50,000 dollar product that weighs 700 lbs..........esd does not kill instantly usually, it just degrades circuits, so they fail later. soft errors, etc can occur because of this, the impedance of something changed. if you say yea it works after i put it together, you don't really know whats going on, you would need a electron microscope and decapsulated circuits to see

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 11:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: CopperCone on December 18, 2017, 10:26:07 pmI've worked on a lot of stuff which fits your criteria, both on price & weightMuch of the original ESD stuff was driven from experience in really good labs where every effort was made to have a clean environment,including minimising humidity!Much to their horror, after doing all the things which seemed correct, they discovered they were having problems from "static electricity".The first attempts in ESD protective packaging was the "Poly pink"material, which deliberately reintroducedhumidity, in the form of a film of moisture on the inner surface of the material.(At least, that is what the film we watched back in the 1970s said, & it was produced by the manufacturer of the material).Out in the world, we get away with a lot, because the environment is almost always far more humid than aproper lab.At the end of the day, you do the best that you can, & as wristbands & static mats aren't expensive, people use them most of the time, but sometimes, if you are up to your armpits in a very large non-modular piece of gear, there is no room for such things.I almost always had the advantage of being able to track the stuff I fixed, & if it lasted for 5 to 10 years after my repair, I could probably say there were no subtle ESD faults introduced.(If they were so subtle that they didn't cause any degradation in performance, in that time frame, they couldbe ignored).Not a conspiracy theory, but component manufacturers have a vested interest in blaming unexplained failures on the customer, as it costs them money to review their own procedures.

author: philpem
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 11:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 18, 2017, 02:43:14 amYou can lead a lazy engineer to the workbench, but you can't teach them to give two hoots about taking care of shared tools.In my experience though, getting all new tools and sticking them up in plain sight on a shadowboard works damn well. Nobody wants to be "the first guy to knock a chip off the blades on the new Jokari stripper" or "that guy who scuffed the new JBC".

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 11:31:47 pm
content: Quote from: philpem on December 18, 2017, 11:21:40 pmIt helps to take human behaviour into account when you buy stuff. I know I'll forget to turn off an iron sooner or later, so I bought one of those stands that turns it off for me when the tool is placed in it.I guess some idiot could still leave it on the table.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 12:14:48 am
content: I've certainly damaged stuff by being careless with ESD, mostly RAM. Doesn't take anything crazy to prevent it though, I now work on a grounded ESD save mat on the bench and if it's something particularly fragile or valuable I wear a grounded wrist strap. I've never worn gloves to work on electronics.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 10:00:44 am
content: A few good reasons why to wear (and use) personal protection when repairing customer shit:1) You newer know if the item has been dropped in the toilet, or has been up somebody's asshole.2) You newer know if the customer has used drugs, and leftovers are now (somehow) inside the item.3) Your body parts like lungs, eyes and skin isn't easily replaced. If so, it is usually extremely expensive and painful. Leaking batteries, Splintering glass, Toxic fumes and harmful chemicals absorbed by skin and body in general.4) If the device is found near a crime scene, you can get incriminated quite easily - how fun is that, and how less revenue for your business can be made while sorting this mess out?5) Guarantees, and having to re-do work for 'free' - or replace the unit entirely because 'it just suddenly died - and you were the last to touch it'.Of course none of this ever happens,- until proven otherwise. But proof is science, and that cost$ and takes time.Learn and burn.Hindsight is clear-sight - right? (And, are you in your right mind?)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 11:34:35 am
content: Quote from: TheDane on December 19, 2017, 10:00:44 amIf you are that paranoid, I'd suggest Electronics repair is not for you!

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 02:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 18, 2017, 11:31:47 pmI did that regularly when I had my Hakko 936, even after I added a power on LED. Now, I have a Hakko FX-951 and Metcal MX-500 and I appreciate they both go the sleep if I forget, which I have done.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 02:51:43 pm
content: I have experience!One of the worst thing I have fixed was an iPhone, which had been dropped in pissy pig manure.It reeked of ammonia, and so did my hands and fingers afterwards.I have also had mobile phones which had been dropped into horse shit, really. Those girls interested in horses are clumsy! (Who would have thought)Quit that job because of lack of personal protection. No shit...Oh,Back in the day when I fixed televisions, the high tension transformers attracted nicotine in the air like smokers to a tobacco store. Yellow fingers, and the stench. Had to be worn off your skin, couldn't be washed off.

author: Jr460
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 03:31:20 pm
content: Quote from: TheDane on December 19, 2017, 10:00:44 amI know someone that worked at home and did the finance dept job for... an adult "toy" supplier shall we say. Since most stuff shipped direct, their address was put down on where to send returns. Not often, but they would get things that either people mis-ordered or thought was defective, delivered to the house.In the trash right away. They never even looked to see what the item was.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 04:23:00 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on December 18, 2017, 03:17:48 amThat's nothing compared to Jessa's iPhone data recovery of a murder victims phone caked in his dried on blood.When I was fixing CRT TV's back in the day it was old peoples cat piss, mouse dropping infested, dust and cobweb filled and heavy smokers tar soaked TV's you didn't want on the bench. Never wore gloves though.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 11:49:18 pm
content: Quote from: Jr460 on December 19, 2017, 03:31:20 pmNice when you can do that.Try working in a Hearing Aid repair shop!Aids liberally coated in the customer's earwax, sweat, & dead skin.Of these, the earwax was the worst, sometimes it had hardened on the aid or ear mould, & had to be scraped or ground off.In other cases, the person's dog had got to the thing & eaten it, so we were left with trying to "breathe life" into the remains.Company policy was not to just replace faulty items, so you were expected to perform magic.They used to keep old aids, disinfect them, & use them as a "swap" replacement, but when I was there that was no longer allowed.In many cases, we had to break that rule, just to get the customer a useable aid.Even that wasn't easy, as you had to reprogram the thing, then check it with an acoustic sweeper.( it gave a paper printout, which you then held up alongside the one shown on the PC to see if they were close)After all that, you weren't necessarily OK, as sometimes the Audiologist had changed the program, & the documentation hadn't kept up, so you gave the customer their old one.Through all this, the all pervasive presence of earwax!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2017, 12:03:40 am
content: Quote from: TheDane on December 19, 2017, 10:00:44 amReally? These are the things you worry about?Not to burst the bubble, but a normally used phone is amongst the most disgusting and germ ridden things people own. It might actually be better to receive a phone that's been shoved up an ass, because it's much more likely to have been cleaned than a regular phone.

author: mictas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2017, 03:17:19 am
content: So, I have leaned something, basic ESD equipment doesn't really cost all that much. I was poking around RS looking at some capacitors to fix an amplifier and yea. If a company can buy mid range Hakko equipment, then a few hundred dollars for a mat, clothing, scraps and something to ground the mat.Yea, its not that hard. Besides the shop has a hakko fume extractor and that is worth over thousand dollars.Yes, a phone might be at the end of its life, but a possible employee being interviewed in the workshop upstairs, you might want to show that you are taking things seriously.I'd say buying phones that have not been refurbished by them is okay, phone cases, cables, battery banks, yea... but over all.By the way, from above, case in point:https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/esd-grounding-accessories/2877492/Its just a fancy box with a 1 Mresistor.https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/esd-safe-mats/7873114/<-- I really want that thing!https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/esd-safe-overalls-lab-coats-shirts/7898090/And I could just keep going on.

author: mictas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2017, 06:03:06 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 20, 2017, 03:23:50 amIn Australia, it has become a real taboo to provide any level of real training, once long ago we had this whole give them ago thing.Sadly, our system is set up to shower employers, with unemployed people who either have no interest or not able to do the job.As an example, take a person who will go into anaphylactic shock if they eat shell fish, that persons employment agent will do their best to place that person, into a position in a kitchen, where they will be cooking and preparing lobster.What has happen to me, I was placed in a factory, this factory was light work for myself. My employment service sent four people after I was. The first two were slack and got the boot, the third person, wouldn't show up, leave work, show up stinking drunkand over all, didn't like to work. The last person they sent, not only had he worked in a factory just like it, but was far more useful then I was. Two months after that last person was hired, the factory lost its lease and sold, the new owner has not picked a new location, so everything remains in storage. And somehow me not being able to return to that job is my fault.I have also been told to 'Piss off!' and in those words, while asking for a job somewhere and I mean those words and no chance to talk to the owner. I have also been able to get out of a few employers, rants about how I will not show up, I will not put my back into it and a lot of other stuff, and they never even had to do anything, just expected it right off the top.This is what Australia is like in the job market, because I do not have a silver tongue, I never even get a foot in the door.Now on that, if an employer wanted to go through the whole hiring me through employment services. They get me for free for two weeks, i.e. the employment service reimburses the employer my pay for the first two week and if I recall, 80% of my pay for another six months, as long as I am given, I think 10 hours a week.The only reason I got through the door in my last job, was because of that the money thing. I was allowed to reaming working, because I was early or showed up on time, I didn't need to be supervised on and yes. I made dam well sure to do what was required and I never had to be told to clean up properly. And for some reason Clive liked how I would react, like when I was assisting him with cleaning the tools and equipment, something was slipping I would take hold of it, if I was being asked to hand over a tool at a point, I'd learn what it was needed and at times, he didn't have to ask. I guess not being a smoker, helps, but who knows.So anyway, if my employment agent want to place me into a repair shop, last night I emailed him a two page list of the computer repair places near to me and details of what I know.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2017, 06:32:44 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 19, 2017, 11:34:35 amTo be fair, he is quite right. That being said, those sorts of hazards are largely restricted to a small number of labs that do specialised work... and yes, I have come across my fair share of toilet and butt electronics in my time!That being said, consumer's devices are disgusting. I'm sure I don't need to tell you what laptop keyboards and track pads or mobile phones get exposed to while being used on the toilet or those late night ehemm... "entertainment sessions". If I worked in an Apple store, I'd be wearing gloves too!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2017, 12:00:16 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 20, 2017, 06:32:44 amI know they have them (and are required for any repairs that involve touching the display, for example gaining access to an iMac’s innards), but I also know Apple’s policy is to refuse to repair anything that is a biohazard. Gets closed back up and returned to the customer as-is.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 10:50:09 pm
content: Anything is potentially a biohazard, bacteria and viruses are microscopic and invisible, something doesn't have to be visibly smeared in feces to be contaminated.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 11:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2017, 10:50:09 pm...and the worst culprits for this are the good old keyboard and mouse! A toilet seat is cleaner!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 10:00:40 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on December 27, 2017, 11:26:47 pmExactly. I love how butt phones are touted as a risk when normal keyboards are probably a larger risk to your health.A toilet seat is actually cleaner than most things in your house.