CE marking - legally increase output RF power for ISM band - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: hcglitte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 10:33:54 pm
content: Hi,I did some research and found some manufacturers that legally sell devices @434 MHz which have more than the ETSI 10mW limit.The point here is that the CE marking has a 4-digit number after the CE mark with an exclamation mark: CE1234!The devicesmuststill be able to operate at 10mW, i.e. legally. But the user can make the device transmit at a higher power level by the flip of a switch (on the control panel).The point here is that the exclamation mark is meant to function as a notice to the end user that the device MAY violate the national regulations, and its up the the end user to be aware of these rules.Normally a manufacturer doesn't need to use a third party test house to put the CE mark on their products. However, in the case above - they have to.And that's where the 4-digit number comes into play - its a number that identifies the test house.You are not allowed to use the exclamation mark without a 4-digit number...Some examples: iPhone has the exclamation mark. The reason I have been told is that Bluetooth is not allowed to be used outside the car in France - at least before.Another: you can legally buy walkie talkies that can be programmed to transmit on frequencies that you should not use.The point here is: If your competition is selling high power devices, and you would like to be competitive - you would also have to play by the same rules.So, in practice the 10mW rule does not really apply.Anyone who has any experience on this topic?

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 11:01:53 pm
content: CE is an electrical safety declaration, nothing to do with radio regulations.as for your iphone bit, it's more likely related to wifi,you cant operate a hotspot or base-node outdoors / in a public place without a license in several EU country's

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 11:16:20 pm
content: The alert symbol is there to indicate operation on non-harmonized frequencies. And I'm not sure it applies to power levels at all.In any case, you still need to find at least one EU member country that allows higher than standard transmit power, and that should happen less and less as countries adopt common standards (in theory).It is also no mandatory to put that symbol since last year, if I remember correctly. It is sufficient to have exceptions written down in the documentation.Also, it does not mean you can use that equipment in violation of the local laws, but you can market and sell it locally. Obviously that transfers the burden of enforcement to the buyers, but it does not make it less illegal.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 09:44:00 am
content: OP, you're at the wrong point in time for this question.R&TTE is expiring, and the harmonized standards for the new RED directive are not finished. Everything is a mess right now.But basing my answer on R&TTE, there is no way you can send out higher power (EIRP) than +10 dBm in the 434 band for "free-to-market" devices. The rules are:+0 dBm max. for continuous transmission+10 dBm max. with a duty cycle of <10%I've not seen the exclamation-point marking myself, but suspect it is for "limited-use" devices, ie, for use in an RF lab only. If someone is selling such devices openly to the free market, they need to be reported.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 07:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: stj on May 15, 2017, 11:01:53 pmThe CE mark states that you meet all the required EU directivies, safety, EMC, Radio, WEEE etc. The new declaration of conformity supplied with each unit should list what directives it meets.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2017, 07:35:23 pm
content: As @Ataradov said, it is likely because the Wifi frequencies in France are not the same as in the US (and elsewhere) and the phone certainly can transmit on the "illegal" channels.QuoteUm, no. There is certainly no such restriction on bluetooth in France. BT mice and other hardware is in common use here.

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 05:23:05 pm
content: Not really sure about ! marks but here's a neat trick with radio power and CE you can pull legally.Just include a hardware or hw/sw switch in the device that limits the power from the factory at 10mW. Point out to the test lab that the switch exists and that it is enabled by default, they will write this up in the test report that you can then give to anyone who asks. The test lab may want to confirm this by doing a 'restore manufacture defaults' on the device. Remember, test labs are not the police. Your the customer and so they will test or ignore testing what ever you tell them to.Once you have passed, self certified and put your nice CE sticker on the box your manual will explain this switch and the consequences of using it. Something along the lines of 'this device is power limited to 10mW as per BS/EN standard so and so'. Then let your users raise hell with their neighbors TV reception with no legal comeback to yourself. If you need to be morally shielded, for the sake of public perception of your product, then make the switch only adjustable by some rudimentary 'hack' that some cleaver teenager can discover and publish online.A legitimate reason for doing this do exist. Some users, such as mine site operators, SEA FOLK, and so on, are hundreds of km from civilization and have certain exemption's or else just don't care.I know the military generally has a FU approach to trivial things like emissions standards.I missed the obvious reason that @ataradov eluded to. If you want to keep costs down being able to develop and test a single product for a global market requires being able to limit power output for different regions. The only illegal thing here is if you shipped it to EU with the wrong power setting. It's not just output power some ISM bands require a different number of channels for frequency hopping depending on country as well as occupancy time.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2017, 05:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: pixulator on May 17, 2017, 05:23:05 pmI think this isn't valid anymore since the latest version of the standard (about a year ago?) since a manufacturer I'm working with had to implement a region lock because they were now legally required to actively prevent any "too simple" means for anyone to intentionally break compliance. In this case flashing firmware intended for another region with different limits had to be explicitly made impossible. Of course you can't prevent people from taking things apart and add an amplifier, but something any dumb user is capable of doing such as flipping a switch, changing a menu setting or reflashing doesn't fly.Don't have more details since this is not my area but I believe that's how it went.Quote from: janoc on May 16, 2017, 07:35:23 pmThe 2.4GHz spectrum in France did have a lower power limit for the upper half of the band when used outdoors. Since that's not practical to implement most devices simply limited themselves to using the lower band only at all times when in "France mode". That ended in 2014 I believe and was harmonized with the rest of EU. But yes even if you did have BT devices depending on where they were to be used they were working in a somewhat degraded mode compared to other locations. A mobile phone headset was probably degraded as it's normal to use it outdoors, a mouse probably not.

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 08:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on May 17, 2017, 05:50:02 pmHi Kilrah,I was in an EMC lab this week and made a point of asking the resident RF expert this very question. He backed up my position that it is not necessary to prevent the user in any particular way from bypassing EMC compliance so long as it is made clear within the manual / documentation that compliance was met under the settings provided out of the box. He did go on to say, by way of example, that smart phones are generally location aware and as such are able to automatically select the correct parameters upon detecting what region they are in.A simpler example is conductive emissions on cables. We specify the maximum cable length for mains AC at 15 meters. If the user sticks a 16 meter cable on that line then it's something that's outside of our control. The best we can do is highlight this in the manual. There is no reason to say that RF radiated emissions (that this post is mostly about) is any more or less important then emissions back on to the power grid through a power cable so a different length cable is basically a 'hack' the user can perform, no software can control that.That is not to say that the company you were working for did not have some other legal obligation to be so strict, but if we're working from base standards then I would say it's fine.[edit : removed test house name and other stuff, reason got scared ]

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 10:14:30 pm
content: For the 70cms band stuff just sell it for amateur service use only!The FCC was doing some stuff around locking down firmware, but thats the US Gov for you.Regards, Dan.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 10:45:09 pm
content: None of those suggestions are legal. Eventually you will be caught and fined. And what is worse, politicians will use you as an example why we need more laws requiring lock down of devices.