34401a experts: slammed around in transit, but works. Should I be worried? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: arcitech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 04:58:34 pm
content: Those not wanting a saga can skip to the last paragraph, but here's some backstory.Waiting patiently for a 34401a to show up for a reasonable price as a "parts only" fix-er-upper as my first vintage repair, I was surprised to snag a grimy-looking but working HP-branded (w/ black low input shrouds) shortly after it came up for sale.I picked it up from the post office and wondered what the beat up box would contain, especially as the thing was sliding back and forth in the (not-too-oversized) box containing it just while carrying it back to the car.Minutes later, I was home, opened the box, and the first thing I noticed was several popped (large) air pocket packing bubbles. 3/4 were flat iirc. There was a layer of bubble wrap, and some other newsprint wads too, which is probably the only reason the thing works (spoiler!). I also noticed the power button jammed (and unyielding) between the front edge and rear edge of the front panel, and heard things rattling around inside -- they sounded like small things, so I knew at that point after wiping this thing's years of grime away, I'd need to crack it open and clear it for safety before plugging in.Fast forward through sink and suds (for the bumpers) and we're at the bench. The cover was a lot more difficult to slide off than I've seen in the few videos where these get opened up. Two small pieces of plastic (smaller than a fingernail) fall out. The power rod was dislodged from the actual switch (on the back side of the unit near mains entry), so I jostle it around gently, and get the button to pop back out the front, and then mate it up w/ the switch, but am confused when the switch won't operate freely but sticks, and not just a little. It also sucks the keypad membrane back along with it when it's depressed.I sort all this out by loosening the front panel screw, and letting things mate with each other, and the button moves freely now, so I tighten the front panel back up and all seems fine. I spot the area where the plastic pieces came from: the front panel's rear edge a the bottom near the inputs. NBD, cosmetic, so I close it up and plug it in to see if it works.I ran it all afternoon and things seemed fine. I can't test HV, but all the basic functionality tested fine, as did its self test. The display was bright (almost too bright), the lens was perfect, and the cleaning I'd given it made me think it'd look totally brand new if it had been packed better. The seller and I exchanged some messages (initiated by my "item arrived damaged" ebay doings) that began before even powering it on (w/ photos), and he seems reasonable and committed to the legwork for a USPS claim.At night I spend time poking around on the inside to do a more thorough inspection and don't see much to fret over. Along the bottom of the board, I see an anomaly that I gently clean up with some IPA and, after a few swipes, up comes some copper foil within a guard trace. Guess I just undid someone else's fix, I thought, and without any fuss (I wanted a fix-er-upper anyway, right? I put a single strand of copper down w/ some trusty 63/37, cleaned it up, and took some more board photos before I saw what I couldn't believe I missed.The board had somehow bowed up and was sitting atop one of the chassis retaining "hooks"! Jesus, how had I not realized 45 minutes ago, I thought as a sense of panic and urgency now set in to de-stress the board and all its magical doodads. This board torque explained why everything up front had been so cockeyed, and why the front panel needed to be loosened a bit for everything to mate. I'm of the mind that it certainly wasn't this way prior to packing; I trust that the (single) photo of the unit, with its power button sitting where & how it should, was taken at the point when this went up for sale. But geez, the Gs that must've been required for this to even happen, right?! It even managed to make the front bezel punch through the rubber bumper. So, I got it back where it needed to be after partial disassembly, and regretted running it for a whole afternoon w/ the board bowed right near the ASIC and the voltage reference. Should I worry? Things still work. Pics follow. Should I gently reflow w/ some hot air? Should I just leave it alone unless it stops working?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 05:42:15 pm
content: A reflow cycle would likely do more harm than good and definitely void the calibration.If it is an old HP unit, chances are this is before RoHs and thus still leaded solder. AFAIK the leaded solder is behavong better, espeically with thermal stress from hot cold cycles.Over time the solder will creap a little, but it can do that for quite some time and distance. The calibration may have suffered a little, but otherwise I would not worry very much.Time will tell if the stress did some damage that may cause a failure in the next weeks - still hard to tell the actual reason.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 05:48:33 pm
content: If it was eBay I’d have sent it back and asked for a refund if something arrived in that state.

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 06:00:06 pm
content: I'd say it depends what you paid for it. On ebay in the UK these things seem to go for £350 plus or minus. If I'd paid anything remotely like that and it turned up in that condition, it would go back. Say £80 for spares and repairs and I'd been looking for a time, I'd be annoyed but I might live with it. Where you draw the line is up to you.If you want something like that, it's worth phoning the established used instrument dealers. Sometimes they can pleasantly surprise you.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 06:05:50 pm
content: Well ... while it was warped I would have inspected traces and such while any cracks were "stretched" out. But I can understand your wanting to get it back straight. It is what it is now. Since you have a pic you could send it back or burn it in for a while, hard to say it's your call.

author: arcitech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 07:44:43 pm
content: My aim in this thread wasn't & isn't to get deep into seller/buyer drama, but to discuss the instrument. That said, the seller does not accept returns. I knew this when buying it, but that doesn't mean I have zero means of recourse with ebay buyer protection. That's why I immediately engaged w/ the seller through the system with an initial "arrived damaged" designation.Again, the seller's been communicative and at some point it'll either be resolved between him & me, or it'll get "judged" by ebay. I do think he could've done a better job packaging it, but I also think that some very serious impact against something very solid must've taken place in order for any of this to have happened, and "better" packaging that wasn't perfect could've resulted in the same.Personally I do want to keep the thing, but I do believe a partial refund is the only way to make this right. 20% would be too little a refund, and 80% too much. That's about as fine as I know right now. Unsure how ebay buyer protection works if it does wind up unsettled between just use two for items that have clearly had the snot beaten out of them between A & B, but I'm hopeful it's not a simple binary "shut up & no refund, or return it (to a seller who doesn't accept returns) for refund" potential outcome.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 07:46:32 pm
content: A while back I bought three of the 34401A from a seller and he put them all in one box with NO protection and the box was far too large.And since they did not have any bumpers installed, you can imagine how they looked. Rear bezels broken front window broken and so on.But all three worked perfectly.We can be happy that the heavy transformer is mounted to the frame and not the PCB.So, I would not worry too much about your 34401A.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 07:47:26 pm
content: Regarding returns. Seller can’t not accept returns if they fucked up. That’s how eBay works. Seller may write it off if it’s broken. Or eBay might write it off for you.At no point should you accept bad packaging. It just encourages the seller to keep doing it snd keep destroying stuff.

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 08:58:44 pm
content: My guess, and it's no more than that, is that this will be OK.You can't divorce the price from the question altogether. If it cost £20, why are we having this conversation?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 11:32:30 pm
content: Does it work? All functions, passes all self test?Quote from: bd139 on July 15, 2022, 07:47:26 pmI mean if the seller wants to save $5 on packaging and pay out a $50 refund... they are still losing.

author: arcitech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 11:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: Zenith on July 15, 2022, 08:58:44 pmIf it'd been £20 then I'd be doing a dance. Total cost was a little more than fifteen times that. From what I've seen, US-based buy-it-now units without all read input shrouds (one way afaik, perhaps not the best, to avoid unobtanium components?) that work fine and are beat up (not just dirty) go for north of $400, commonly $500, and many lesser-beaten ones fetch $600 or a bit more.Had this arrived in the (dirty but otherwise pristine) condition it shipped in, I'd consider it a very good deal (for me at least).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 01:45:16 am
content: I’d send it back for that. No joke.Mine was £350 and looks like this….

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 08:10:42 am
content: I won mine 3 years back on ebay shipped from UK (at exact bd139's price).I had tremendous/extreme/unbelievable luck the unit (no bumpers included) came ok and it worked fine.The meter was packaged by an absolute idiot, who had zero understanding what he/she/it is shipping to me. I think ebay should consider those full idiots exist.If I were you I would return the stuff back unless it cost $20.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 08:17:28 am
content: EBay certainly will consider idiots. I’ve had stuff that was badly packaged refunded almost instantly.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 08:45:09 am
content: The bowed up pcb in your picture is alone the only reason for the returning the meter back. There could be microscopic cracks in the copper tracks, solder joints or in the ceramic package of the most important chip there.. The bowing of the pcb is pretty large and the force shifting the pcb off the holders was huge, imho..

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 09:12:15 am
content: Quote from: arcitech on July 15, 2022, 11:51:24 pmI'm not familiar with the US market for these things, as generally the cost of shipping makes anything from across the pond hopelessly expensive. But from what you've said about prices and the state this has been reduced to, (it's obvious you have serious doubts about it, quite reasonably so), IMHO, it's too expensive to take the risk. You are not complaining on a whim either.To put it another way, if you saw this advertised, honestly and fully described in its current condition, what would you consider a fair value for it?

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 03:23:43 pm
content: The bowing would not scare me.The damage should certainly lead to a nice discount; however I really don't like trashed equipment, so I would return it. Maybe if it came absurdly cheap, I won't care, but this was not much lower than standard pricing. You *will* notice every scratch, dent and crack, potentially every day, for the next couple of years and *every single time* you will think "dang, that dent is really annoying".

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: arcitech on July 15, 2022, 11:51:24 pmWhether a dirty, as-is but not damaged unit that happens to work is worth that is probably debatable, but that's just way too much money for what it appears to be at this point. And the color of the low-input jacks are not a good indication either way of whether it is the old (unrepairable) style or the newer non-polka-dot version. The firmware revision is the appropriate way of determining that and you should get that from the seller, walking them through the process of displaying it if necessary.I think you may be overestimating actual sales prices for these on eBay. It's easy to have that happen and eBay policies tend to be deceptive in that regard. If you are a bit patient, you should be able to get a complete, minty, working unit for $400. I would send that crapper back and based on bitter personal experience and a thankless seller, I would not be too keen on assisting with a USPS claim unless I had a full refund in hand up front. And is it really a USPS issue?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:03:40 pm
content: Good advice.I got the seller to confirm the firmware version on mine before buying it.

author: arcitech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2022, 07:46:34 pm
content: Finally settled up w/ the seller. Told him I'd be satisfied w/ a refund of 75%, and I am glad both of us are happy w/ that.It's still working, and I've also got a very slightly newer(?) Malaysian-mfg'd 34401a arriving later this week to be what this one "could've" been for me, but I have plans for this beater (its name is Peter now -- Hewlett Peter Shippingston):1) I'll never sell it since that'd be pretty damned sleazy (unless it was without its main board or parted out)2) It'll be a great mechanical parts donor if I ever need it... and a "working DMM" I can feel all right with risky experiments if not3) It'll come in handy before either scenarios in #2 for some ongoing edge ML development that needs IRL digits to point the SBC's camera at.So, I'm happy. Seller seems happy. USPS might even award him the 75% of the value he refunded... but either way I hope he's packing things a bit more carefully down the road.

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2022, 08:41:19 pm
content: It seems like a reasonable conclusion to a very unwelcome episode.