Rigol MSO5000 Display Readability Suggestions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 07:26:49 pm
content: While I have not seen the MSO5000 in person, I have read some report of a dim display, and thought I would share some opinions and ideas with this fine community.It appears to me the display used in the MSO5000 is based on TN technology, I have a computer monitor that is TN based, while it has excellent refresh rate and response time for gaming, the viewing angle is terrible as evident in Dave's video when he tipped the unit backward. The contrast simply disappears when you view from an angle. While increasing the backlight LED brightness may help to a small degree, it will only lead to higher backlight bleed-through and will not at all help with the viewing angle. Since we may move around the bench and not always right in front of the scope, this can be a issue with some people.OLED has excellent contrast, but it has issues with burn-in at high brightness with static images, that to me would make it less optimal for scope display, items such as the Rigol logo would surely cause burn-in over time.That leaves IPS the best compromise in my opinion. The cost of IPS vs. TN is not that significant, the screen being the most crucial interface in a scope, I am surprised that Rigol did not go with an IPS display for the MSO5000.I had worked with screen readability on computers in my career, when there is a hardware limitation, we try to compensate it with software. In this case, I am shocked to see numerous colored text in the UI against a dark background . Those would be marginal even in an OLED display, and would look awful in a TN display. We had learned to not use red or magenta text in our designs. If software development is not tightly coupled to the hardware team, it is easy for them to go off and development a pleasing UI using an emulator on a big IPS computer display, but when you run that in a small TN display, it results in a poor readability. This can be improved in firmware by using high contrast text, make all active text white and using the box around it to show color if needed.Even better, switch the display to IPS, it will make it really pop against a black case.Interesting, when I look at some of the Rigol demo videos of the unit, it appears they capture either directly through the HDMI output or on an external monitor. Rather than from the actual display of the unit.I do have one question for the community, does other scope from Siglent, Keysight, Tek, RS, etc... have this viewing angle problem? How about units like the Siglent 1204X-E or the SDS2104X?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 09:26:10 pm
content: Quote from: NoisyBoy on February 26, 2019, 07:26:49 pmAll have viewing angle issues to some degree however those with a shiny reflective display are somewhat worse like the RS that Dave used in a recent video:https://youtu.be/XAbrU17hLTM?t=944Most of Daves videos have him checking viewing angles, you should check them out:https://www.eevblog.com/episodes/Those members with the X and X-E Siglents don't have to suffer a reflective screen or poor viewing angles.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 09:56:09 pm
content: QuoteTo stay under 1000 €/$ selling price, I guess.And yes, the viewing angle is bad, the brightness too.But you could work with it, after a while it doesn´t disturbing.QuoteYepp, we got a Siglent X-E.If it´s interesting, I can take Pictures in different angles from the MSO 5074 or other scopes (Siglent, Lecroy WS3024 (Siglent 3000) )In case of the brightness, rigol told me they work on it (Firmware).

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 10:44:54 pm
content: Haha, I'm sure that screen will brighten right up once they adjust the firmware to overclock it

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 10:49:28 pm
content: How they will do it, I don´t know.Rumours here speculate about they dim the display for longer lifetime.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 11:27:00 pm
content: Quote from: NoisyBoy on February 26, 2019, 07:26:49 pmWas the viewing angle bad when tipped backward only, and forward is ok?Its possible they chose the "wrong" viewing angle of the LCD as well (Dave mentioned this previously, 6 or 12oclock versions). If that is the case it will look better when viewed from above.We had a similar issue but it was never fixed because apparently its too expensive to switch to the right type.. so customer suffers with bad qualityhttps://www.pacificdisplay.com/lcd_view_angles.htm

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 12:18:24 am
content: That's interesting if that's a common trend across brands. With the display panel just a small part of the overall cost, it would be interesting to see if someone will introduce a sub-$1000 scope with an IPS display to really differentiate its product. With something like a scope, the display is what users stare at all day, this should be the one area that manufacturers should put some money in. While the RS screen is more reflective, inat 5:40, it is in fact much brighter and with better contrast than the MSO5000, and they choose to use white text to extract even more contrast rather than the dull blue text in the Rigol. However, I agree that with some antireflective coatings, the RS could look even so much better.BTW, are you saying that the Siglent scopes do not suffer as much in viewing angle changes as the Rigol?Thanks in advance for all your insight in this topic.

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 12:19:37 am
content: If you can take some comparison pictures, that would be excellent!Thank you.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 12:35:27 am
content: Quote from: NoisyBoy on February 27, 2019, 12:18:24 amDirected at me I guess, but use the Quote button so there is no confusion whom you're addressing.No, all DSO's are different in that their viewing angles can be impacted on by ambient light and trace brightness too, not just the quality/style/lens overlay of their LCD/TFT's.When products are built to a price point all manner of things can be compromised to maintain an attractive price.Properly constructed videos by experienced reviewers go to the trouble of examining viewing angles, hunt for them.

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 02:31:46 am
content: Sorry about that, I should have used quote and not reply.Thanks for your insight on this subject.Quote from: tautech on February 27, 2019, 12:35:27 am

author: typoknig
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 02:59:22 am
content: For those of you who have years of experience dealing with Rigol, what is the likelihood that they will push a SW update to fix the poor display quality of already fielded units? Also, what is the likelihood that they will upgrade their design to incorporate a better display like an IPS? I'm in the market for my first "real" scope. I'm dealing with low frequency signals so the DS1054Z would be sufficient if it weren't for the lack of a logic analyzer. I plan on getting into some FPGA work within the next year or two and I figure a logic analyzer would help a lot, and it is nice to have the larger screen with a logic analyzer. I realize I could get the MSO1074Z, but then I'm only a few hundred dollars away from the MSO5074 which has the larger screen and spec wise is a significant upgrade.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 10:27:37 am
content: First of all, it´s not so dark that you couldn´t work with it.But in direct comparison, it´s very dim:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-rigol-mso5000/msg2324127/#msg2324127( the first 30sec from the Video)The brightness itself would be driven by software so it shouldn´t be a problem to "fix"thatvia firmware update.What can´t be fixed is the angle view - and the angle view of the mso5000 is...is….not good.Best viewing is given if you stare directly to it, in eyes height.This could only solved by replacing the 9" display.Will they do it....don´t know the future.Otherwise the mso5000 got hdmi Output, so a ext. monitor could be connected.There are lots of chinese 10" IPS monitors on the market.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 12:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 14, 2019, 10:27:37 amThe chance it "could" be fixed in sw is low, imho.They simply deploy a cheap display in the 5000 that is dim.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 01:47:33 pm
content: How is it compared to the MSO7000 display?

author: Commodore8888
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 02:38:15 pm
content: As someone who owns a 5k, but has a few 7ks at work, I can tell you the 7k has a R&S level good screen. Maybe not AS bright, but sharp, responsive, and clear.The 5k also has sort of a refresh shimmer that the 7k doesn't have. Doesn't seem like a framerate thing though.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 08:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: imo on April 14, 2019, 12:22:06 pmThe last thing is for sure, otherwise they couldn´t sell the scope for this price.What the "fixing" concerns :Even simple displays got contrast and brightness adjustments in the menu, depending from the controllerboard.It should be possible to implement similar adjustments in the rigol menu and if I remember it right, they have it on their to-do-list what the weak brightness concerns.(I asked for it and they confirm it).Well, this could also mean a new display for forthcoming models….We will see.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 06:23:41 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 14, 2019, 08:09:34 pmThey should have set the brightness to full already if possible.Sure, hope dies last..

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 09:42:34 pm
content: The Display is from "Xinli", I did a request to rigol.They give me also the part-number, but google to this brings no answer.http://www.zxl-lcd.com/en/pro_show.asp?cid=471&id=1This is a 10" from them, 200 lumen is not really bright, so we shouldn´t expect any "wonders" from, if they will fix it in future updates.I think, the only update can be done by change the display at all.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 07:12:47 am
content: The viewing angle of that TFT LCD is "6 o'clock", btw..

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 07:22:21 am
content: QuoteI wrote to XinLi and now I got a datasheet for the 9" display...

author: MegaVolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 08:07:32 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 19, 2019, 07:22:21 amCan you share it here? Or is it under NDA?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 08:15:09 am
content: Hi,Here it is(temporary):9inchdisplay.pdf

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:30:46 am
content: 30 LEDs, 9.6v/300mA, 2.9W..and dim..

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 10:19:53 am
content: Contrast ratio 1:500, surface luminance typ 360....what have rigol done with it.Maybe the problem is the touchpanel.Nevertheless, here an alternative type:https://www.mouser.de/datasheet/2/271/Microtips%20Technology-8-28-2017-MTD0900GZK%20SPEC1-1181369.pdf9", IPS, 1:600, 450cd/m2, angle view 85/85/85/85( instead of 70/70/70/50)…..https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Microtips-Technology/MTD0900GZK-1?qs=MLItCLRbWsxjQMvFoTo2SQ%3D%3D

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 11:50:07 am
content: QuoteSeveral Pictures taken just a few minutes ago:

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 12:59:09 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 19, 2019, 10:19:53 amMaybe.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 02:28:11 pm
content: Simply use the tool as-is. Face it from front. The more you will elaborate with the brightness "issue" the worse for your mindset. It is a cool oscope..

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 08:18:10 pm
content: Sure it is and for me the display thing isn´t such a big issue as other people claiming (without having a mso5000...) - nevertheless a little "tuning" makes fun or only the thinking about it.By the way, really annoying is the fan....really annoying.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 08:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 19, 2019, 11:50:07 amYes, looks like there is a lot of scatter of the room light from the screen's surface, presumably the touch panel. That seems to cause both, the perception of a dim display (relative to the scattered background) and low contrast.I don't think putting a better LCD behind the same touch panel would result in much improvement.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:08:25 pm
content: With a closer look, you can see the rows/columns of the touchpanel.QuoteYou might be right, here´s a pic in the late afternoon, daylight was already gone:

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 19, 2019, 09:08:25 pmAhh, that's much better! And it confirms that it's mainly backscattered light from the room which messes with the contrast.I see a marketing opportunity for a new accessory:A nice screen bezel or hood. Also helps with the vintage look!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:23:16 pm
content: Or adaptor for polaroid cams…..We still got one !

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:24:16 pm
content: Go figure, no light and now it looks better. It's not relevant because you shouldn't be working in the dark though.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:30:50 pm
content: I´m working 24/7....Joking, it wasn´t so dark as the picture might look alike.Under working conditions ( at company with excellent light conditions) you must stare directly to the screen - thank god, my desk have a second level in eye-height...

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:45:03 pm
content: I actually do work at night but it's never dark. That's actually a case for a glossy screen though. So R&S needs matte screen protector and the Rigol needs a glossy glass screen protector. That display is pretty dim from everything I've seen. Even in your dark picture the grid lines disappear off center. It really is a big disappointment for otherwise decent hardware. I guess you say it's also got the typical Rigol fan but that's never bothered me much. A Datron 4000 fan on the other hand...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:58:44 pm
content: The fan of the LeCroy WaveJet beats all....40mm diameter and loud as hell

author: typoknig
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 02:25:00 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 19, 2019, 11:50:07 amWhat modifications were done before these pictures were taken?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 03:25:52 pm
content: Hi,None, it´s untouched.