OH! This would hurt the bank account! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 05:39:57 am
content: For sale on eBay, I found this pan-tilt-zoom thermal camera that looks like it belongs on some commercial/industrial (or even military) drone. The ball shaped turret has both a thermal imager and a visible light camera. Both the visible light and thermal cameras have zoom capability. The thermal camera is of the MWIR (not LWIR) variety, using an InSb sensor. Thermal resolution is 256x256, and FOV is 17.6deg by 17.6 deg. For visble light camera, there are one of 2 types 811x608 (NTSC) and 795x596 (PAL). FOV for visible light is 22 deg by 22.3 deg (it says in the item listing, but that wouldn't make sense given the pixel counts in the H and V directions, because the aspect ratios don't match). Visible light sensitivity is 5.0 lux.And now for the price. The Buy It Now price on eBay is $30,000. OUCH!Here's the link to the item.https://www.ebay.com/itm/273818777960

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 10:18:01 am
content: It sounds like it's in working condition and has all the cables/controllers for it. But the price is far to high to get this has a hobbyist. The lens maybe part of that reason, but you can get a lot of issues with the cooler, if this is helicopter mounted it sure does have a lot of running hours. Maybe a tenth of the price would make this viable, a low resolution InSb can be found elsewhere for less if you look good enough.

author: bap2703
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 03:23:43 pm
content: I am already cutting a hole on the roof of my car.Well, value wise it would be more like adding wheels to this thing than adding it to my car.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 08:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: Vipitis on June 15, 2019, 10:18:01 amYou mention a cooler, but nothing in that eBay listing states that it's a cooled device. Are you familiar with this particular device?

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 10:06:20 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on June 15, 2019, 08:56:31 pmit is InSb - it is cooled

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 11:56:40 pm
content: It's the sort they use on police helicopters for tracking people who are running from the scene of a crime. Given what the helicopter it is intended to mount on costs, $30k is peanuts. It wouldn't surprise me if it cost 10 times that new.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 01:01:55 am
content: There are many hints. MWIR, InSb, Zoom optics as well as the eBay listing saying "IR camera takes 10 minutes to cool down"

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 01:08:37 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2019, 11:56:40 pmIt can notably also track or discover people not running. I've seen interesting footage of a helicopter flying around until the warming up of the otherwise excellent hiding spot gave the subject away. Heat is very hard to hide for long.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 05:04:20 am
content: Absolutely. Thermal energy transfers pretty quickly. For instance, someone might be able to hide in a dumpster for a minute or two, but on a thermal camera the dumpster would be glowing in a corner after that.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 05:09:02 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 16, 2019, 01:08:37 amPerhaps I should have said "evading", whatever the case I'm sure we've all seen examples of these remarkable devices in use.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 07:51:14 pm
content: An interesting application area. The (UK) police will spend £1M on a helicopter, £200k+ on imaging kit, £2000 an hour to fly it often just to get a thermal camera.The TV shows have commentary of the helicopter operator trying to direct the effectively blind ground units towards the hiding suspect.Trying to sell them hand held cameras for the ground forces, near universally not interested. I am not even aware of the lower spec FLIR cameras like the Scout getting in.Bill

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 04:36:59 pm
content: On the ground you need line of sight for handheld cameras to work. From the air there is little to get in the way, and you can cover a lot of ground very quickly (plus not snag your pants on barbed wire trying to keep up).Rather than handheld, a drone might be almost as useful and a lot cheaper than a helicopter. Time on station would be pants, though.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 12:25:19 am
content: A large enough multirotor that can carry a big battery can do pretty well for flight time, a friend of mine does aerial photography and I think he said he gets 45 minutes of gentle flight with his camera drone. If one were willing to spend $30k I bet you could build an electric multirotor that could carry a camera like that aloft for more than an hour.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 01:48:41 am
content: You'd save time by not having to get to and from an airfield as well.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 12:29:57 pm
content: this isn't minority report material yet. But FLIR sales their Black Hornet with a tiny Lepton for Militärshirt range reconnaissance. Having police multicopters or sUAS would spark a lot of protest. Helicopters seem alright however.

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 04:17:43 pm
content: Quote from: Bill W on June 16, 2019, 07:51:14 pmWhat the TV shows are not showing is the fact that many of those systems are coupled for police or similar work with a transmitter module, transmitting in real time the image from the camera directly to the ground teams (car or handheld).Quote from: james_s on June 20, 2019, 12:25:19 amGiven the weight of the gimbal and the ECU - a total of 16 kg - the forces when rotating the gimbal, the final weight of the UAV would be considerable. Good morning FAA/EASA.Max

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 04:41:21 pm
content: Quote from: Max Planck on June 20, 2019, 04:17:43 pmDrone doesn't need to be only a multirotor. Also the capability exists already (hint - military drones) and when it comes to permits for stuff like this, law enforcement and military tend to play by different rules than civilians. They are part of the government and it is the government who sets the rules, so ...A 20-50kg drone is not really a problem to get a permit for as long as it has a properly trained/licensed operator at the controls and the UAV is equipped accordingly (certificates, lights, transponder, operator in contact with ATC and proper lookout is maintained to avoid collisions). From FAA/EASA's point of view it is not really much different than having a manned helicopter/plane flying there (even though in Europe it wouldn't be EASA doing the paperwork but national aviation authorities).They have only issues with civilians flying stuff like this, e.g. for commercial reasons or for fun and by poorly trained/unqualified/reckless operators where it could become either a nuisance or danger for the unsuspecting public. I.e. it is a big difference between permitting a police department to use something like a Leptron helicopter UAV and e.g. Amazon to fly thousands of delivery drones.However, from the practical point of view, the police would rather operate much smaller drones than unwieldy monsters like this. You can't take off with it from wherever, tons of restrictions would apply (noise, ATC coordination, you need a large van/truck, expensive charging/fueling and operation) and if anything goes wrong the damage from a crash could be considerable (both materiel, human casualties and PR). Basically if you have so many restrictions you can as well fly a helicopter - it is more expensive but lasts in the air for a lot longer and it is safer than any drone (important over built-up areas).

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 06:15:37 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 20, 2019, 04:41:21 pmWhat is the MTOW of UAVs carrying a gimbal of such size and weight?Quote from: janoc on June 20, 2019, 04:41:21 pmExactly, thus, in the context of what was written so far, we can forget about what military/low enforcement are allowed or not to do.Quote from: janoc on June 20, 2019, 04:41:21 pmI think you should check it first. The UAS operations has been passed by member states to EU/EASA in 2018. Draft regulations are available for quite some time and will be finalized probably this year. Toys below 250 g and three categories: open, specific and certified. Things will change soon.Max

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 11:15:08 pm
content: There is also the fact that tech like these cameras continues to get smaller and lighter. Even for civilian use it is possible to get licensed to operate much larger drones than are typically used by hobbyists. There are numerous large scale RC model airplanes that weight >100lbs, lots of videos on YouTube.The camera drone my friend has for his videography business is about 4' across with 8 rotors and weighs around 15kg. It normally carries a gimballed mirrorless DSLR camera for still shots and HD video but he recently got a thermal camera for it. Nowhere near as fancy as this thing but close enough to demonstrate proof of concept. He's licensed as a commercial drone operator in Canada so what he does is fully legal. I don't know exactly what process he had to go through but I think it was mostly a matter of paperwork and fees.As has been said already, law enforcement has their own set of rules so whatever civilians are barred from doing is irrelevant.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 11:55:41 pm
content: You just have to look at newer technology. The OP has found a cooled camera pod that is at least 10 years old. The latest and greatest to compare would probably be from Sierra Olympichttps://www.sierraolympic.com/products/details/ventus-microas this is purpose build to be used on flying platforms and other vehicles. The whole idea to push SWaP enables all those technologies to be used in unmanned multicopters that are the size of a toy.10um LWIR microbolometers will enable even smaller platforms to use high resolution thermal cameras. For the continuous zoom you want MWIR right now.

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 01:02:23 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 20, 2019, 11:15:08 pmWhat I wrote was totally opposite. In the context of this thread, limits for civilians are the key here if someone would like to buy this gimbal and use it on his own UAV.Max

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 06:03:05 pm
content: Who is talking about civilians buying this and using it on a UAV? I was talking about technologically feasible alternatives to a fullsized helicopter.That said, a civilian who is licensed as a commercial drone operator could likely fly something that would support this thing, I don't know offhand what the weight limit is but some of them are quite large. I've seen 1/4 scale fixed wing model airplanes that are more than adequate. There's a RC flying club not to far from here with a focus on giant scale model airplanes, to those guys something with a 8 foot wingspan is a little toy.

author: IO390
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2019, 08:33:40 pm
content: You're a bit late to the party guys. Multirotors with thermal imaging are already widely in use by almost all UK Police forces. Devon & Cornwall police even have a dedicated drone unit with 20+ drones of different sizes and capability.

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2019, 09:30:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 21, 2019, 06:03:05 pmCould you please start with reading carefully this thread title and if necessary a few starting posts. It would make things easier.Max