Shelf life of assembled electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 11:05:57 pm
content: Photography is a hobby of mine and often when discussing high end nikon cameras and lenses the comments get made like "it will outlast you". Which is true at-least about lenses, i own a Nikon lens that is 2 months older than me and unlike me is in a perfectly usable condition. But unlike old style film cameras, the large number of very small components (transistors) in the DSLR cameras got me wondering: what is a shelf life of a package of electronics, such as a DSLR? I am not talking about wear and tear from the use, that varies greatly; i am also not talking about a camera being rendered useless due to new technologies being developed. What i am interested in is the actual expected shelf life from aging of electronics. 20 years? 30 years? More? Less?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 11:11:58 pm
content: Electrolytic capacitors tend to have a shelf life, anywhere from several years to several decades depending on the specific type and environmental conditions. Other than that electronic components don't really have a definable shelf life, there is a lot of 40 and 50 year old solid state equipment that still works. Rubber, foam and plastic parts can deteriorate with age.

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 12:03:08 am
content: Very difficult to define. As stated above, caps are the component most likely to fail over just time, even in storage, followed by resistors, their most likely failure mode is going high resistance. Semi conductors can also fail in storage, due to package issues. Surface mount components are less reliable than through hole. All the forgoing is the reason Mil Spec components are produced for the military. Regarding camera's, I don't use or even have a digital camera, but have many 35mm types. The earliest of these which have active electronics are from around 1978, and are still working perfectly. However, I have a Nikon F5, a late 90's model that developed an auto focus fault, as in, it doesn't!! I've never had it repaired as it would cost serious money, it would be cheaper to buy a good used one. It has a huge amount of electronics as it was one of the most sophisticated 35mm film cameras ever produced, so more likely to fail. It isn't the focus motor, as that can be heard hunting. It is impossible to predict when components will fail, but they are spec'd with a theoretical MTBF life, Mean Time Before Failure. Taking the most unreliable, shortest lived component, the electroleaktic crapacitor, they are lifed in thousands of hours when used at max voltage and max temp, the number of hours depending on the quality of the cap. Even then, they can well exceed that theoretical life, or, fail well before!!!

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 03:04:52 am
content: Everything stated above makes sense to me, but there are also additional factors like solder, oxidation etc.Mil-spec items are actually rated for harsh environment MTBF, they are not really rated for shelf life. I work in aerospace.Hence is this oddball question. So far we lived in a world where new features of new electronics outpace lifespan of older electronics, hence the upgrade cycle. I am actually typing up this post on a computer that is 11 years old and i used it every day.Naturally an assembly of components, like pcb, cannot have longer lifespan or shelf life than the individual components used on it; however it would seem like the assembly should have shorter lifespan than shortest lifespan of individual components, since assembly is an item of higher complexity and may be more prone to faults or additive behavior of faults.That's why i was curious if anyone did any research into lifespan of assemblies.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 03:49:57 am
content: Flux can cause problems over time if not managed properly during production. I'm guessing that's not too common in the type of company that makes cameras. Probably more likely in smaller operations.I once worked in a messy little company that didn't believe in this or in ESD. They had problems with both.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 06:34:15 am
content: Electrolytic caps are the typical component with a shelf life.However these days firmware is stored in flash memory and it has a rated data retention time. The electrons gradually leak out of the flash cells and flip bits. This is so rampant that pretty much all high capacity NAND flash memory made in the last 15 years has built in ECC to hide how unreliable it is. However if enough bits flip even ECC won't recover it and flash data retention times are getting worse and worse due to the flash cells being made ever smaller to pack more capacity in, at the same time multiple analog levels of the cells are introduced to pack more bits into a cell.So there is a real possibility that the firmware could become corrupt after 30 to 50 years of sitting around. If you are lucky it might happen in the application part, so you just have to reflash the firmware to get it back to working. If you are unlucky it might break in the bootloder, bricking the whole device.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 06:56:10 am
content: Some HP and Tek gear from the '80's has the bit-rot problem already.with sone UV erasable EPROM chips.I wonder if one-time programmable PROM chips are more reliable long term?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 07:58:42 am
content: I've seen bit rot in EPROMs and I've had mask ROMs fail in old arcade games. SRAM seems to be the least reliable part in those, followed by ROM, followed by jellybean logic.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 10:27:29 am
content: Yeah i did also had a ROM chip go bad in an old HP semiconductor analyzer from the 80s. Luckily a kind user on this forum gave me the binary image of its original contents. Then i found a guy that specializes in fixing old arcade machines who has the equipment to burn me a new copy of that obscure ROM chip and mail it to me. Quite the adventure that one.Oh and this brings us to the other ticking timebombs in older equipment. Battery backed SRAM memory. Be it those Dallas SRAM chips with a built in battery that runs out in a few decades, or even worse external memory backup batteries that leak corrosive crap over the PCB and eat away the traces.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 10:40:11 am
content: Indeed, FLASH memory can be relatively unreliable. Cheap USB drives and SD cards have over-provisioned FLASH storage, so e.g. a 120GB drive may have 128GB of FLASH. Some sectors can be marked as bad so the drive remains at capacity. The controller must do ECC on the fly or verify data when it's written. That's why some of these cheap storage devices can have a horrendous write speed that fluctuates a lot as well, especially when a device is long unformatted or not properly TRIM'ed (if that's supported). Sometimes if you do a full format the device "fixes" itself. Very similar thing happens of SMR hard drives (or even bitrot in CMR drives), but because of different reasons.Regarding components: I would say anything mechanically related is prone to fail. Switches, knobs, dials, connectors, etc. can get bad contacts. Motors, relays, or even wiring etc. can suffer from moisture/water issues and get stuck or have bad connections. Some assemblies may subject PCBs to some constant mechanical load which can fail over time. Heat cycles can crack connections, especially some lead-free solders that are brittle. Liquid caps (like aluminium non-polymer) can dry out and have worse specs. Small-node semiconductors running extremely hot for long durations can suffer from electromigration, degrading their performance and eventually fail otherwise 'stable' specs. Rechargeable batteries degrade over time and use, especially when poorly managed (e.g. the mfgr used up the whole lower and upper end of the battery cell range to get a certain battery life)Now I do think that 'quality' can help for a lot of these aspects. Self-cleaning contacts can help. Components subject to moisture or even water may need coating or sealing to prevent oxidization. A device should be constructed mechanically sound. Heat stress should be minimal or with the least amount of 'thermal shock' as possible. Capacitors can be overspec'ed to account for degradation. Batteries should be well managed instead of abused heavily.But of this list, I think only the first 2 I can say are convincingly issues related to shelf life.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 12:09:33 pm
content: I call bullshit about Berni's comments about the flash.If the camera designers are not total morons (which theycouldbe, though, in which case I will stand corrected), for the firmware, they use the kind of flash which1) is NOT unreliable, and does NOT hide the unreliability by ECC. Might not have ECC at all.2) has data retention of at least 50 years or so guaranteed by manufacturer, and this is at elevated temperature.This is usually internal to the microcontroller(s), sometimes external, with size in hundreds of kilobytes to maybe a few megabytes.This is totally different to USB flash drives or SD cards which use flash technology with far higher storage density, the focus being least $ per GB, with (sometimes) questionable retention time, unless you are careful what you buy and who you believe.But, by default, I would give the microprocessor manufacturers benefit of doubt and assume their guarantees hold. What else can you do, after all. Same for other parts with shelf-lifes.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 12:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: pcm81 on November 30, 2022, 11:05:57 pmI've just been through, let's call it, a relevant experience. I decided to get back into photography after a few years' hiatus.I was planning a holiday which would involve wildlife photography, so I figured it would be a good idea to test my equipment and re-familiarise myself with how it all worked.It didn't start well. My Canon 100-400 L IS threw intermittent error codes whenever I turned IS on. The repair centre diagnosed a faulty IS unit, but said the lens was no longer supported by Canon. No spare parts available. I sold it as-is and bought the mk II version to replace it, which turned out to be a much better lens anyway, but it was an expense I could have done without.A few weeks later I went out with my 24-70 f/2.8 L, and came back to find some shots significantly mis-focused at f/2.8. Turns out this is quite common and is due to mechanical wear causing slop in the mechanism, and should be easily sorted with a routine service. But you've guessed it, no longer supported and no parts available. Once again, I sold it as-is and replaced it with the mk II, which is slightly smaller and lighter but otherwise barely any different as far as I can tell.Feeling neglected, my 50mm f/1.4 prime decided to take a flying leap out of the cupboard where I store my kit. It has a focus mechanism that's oddly fragile, but fortunately spares are readily available and inexpensive, and there's a really good video on YouTube showing how to fix the exact focus issue that it developed as a result of its drop to the floor.In the meantime I sent in my 5D mk III for service, whilst service is at least still available for that model. I still remember buying it new, and there's barely a mark on it... can't quite believe how old it actually is already. A dodgy rotary encoder needed replacing, which was surprisingly inexpensive, but it was still over £200 all-in to get it shipped, cleaned and calibrated. Still, I have a camera that should last well now, which is just as well as it can't be too long before spares for that model also dry up.I also cleaned the focus screen of my 1DX mk II, and thought I'd scratched it in the process. (Note: this is *very* easily done - though the 'scratch' in this case actually turned out to be a fibre from a cotton bud, which was a relief). Nevertheless I was dismayed to find that the standard focus screen for this camera is - you've guessed - already discontinued, and the only place I could find a replacement was an Ebay seller in China. IMHO it beggars belief that such an easily damaged, critical part of a 1D-series camera should already be unavailable as a spare.Finally, at least for now, another unfortunate accident befell my 70-200 f/4L. This was by some margin the oldest of all my lenses, and surprisingly, it's still under service support. Except in this case, that's irrelevant, as the cost to repair the apparently minor damage to the focus mechanism exactly equals the cost to buy a good used replacement. Odd, that.My advice? Don't expect kit to last forever, because even if you don't use it much, even a minor problem could easily write it off if spares are no longer available. I've spent a small fortune over the last few months, on kit which should have been easily fixed, but couldn't be due to the lack of spare parts.Instead, go out there, use your camera, and get the best value out of it that you possibly can.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:01:45 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 01, 2022, 12:09:33 pmOften bigger SOC chips are being used and those boot from external flash that often ends up being some form of NAND flash.For example Keysight had issues with there most popular X3000 series scopes where early stage boot code would bitrot away rendering the scope completely bricked (official fix is sending it back to be serviced for free). So if it can happen to one of the worlds largest test equipment manufacturers, then id argue it could happen to one of the many digital camera manufacturers too.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:24:31 pm
content: It very much depends on whether the firmware engineers have done their homework and know what they're doing. And the hardware engineers must also appreciate the limitations of the hardware itself.I was involved in an engineering project for a set top box that trick-played to the internal eMMC. For those unaware, trick play is the function of being able to play and pause live TV, skip ads and so on. In order to support that, you need to record the active stream of video to a memory device. This is usually the demultiplexed compressed stream.I think most people on this forum can see the issue already. If you assume an MPEG-4 bitstream of about 10Mbit/s (1080i30 Freeview DVB-T2), 16GB memory device, after 1 year of usage 8hrs/day you are at 13TB written. That is already 800 cycles across the NAND. The Toshiba eMMC devices we were using were based on QLC NAND, a new technology at the time, and had a life time of about 1500 cycles. However that lifetime was given at Tj=25C. At Tj=50C, the lifetime was only 750 cycles. The NAND got quite hot under continuous write and read operations, so 50C was a lot closer to reality.To make matters worse the memory device was located about 5cm away from the main SoC, and when it died, it would bring the whole system down as the kernel debugger was left switched on printing kernel debug messages on an inaccessible UART about how the eMMC was not able to read or write blocks because of a device error. The result is the box would take 10 mins to turn on and change channel 30 seconds after the remote control button was pressed.And this could happen 18 months after you bought the device with relatively average usage. I believe in the end a firmware update was shipped that turned off the debugger and we sent free USB HDD's out to customers who asked for them because trick play was now dead on their less than 2 year old box.For what it's worth as an intern I tried to highlight this as a design flaw, but I was ignored. The company pulled out of the UK market a few years later and focused on LatAm and so on.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:40:16 pm
content: LCDs can go off in various ways. Some stuff I am looking at currently has been in storage for between one and two decades. The displays suffer from blooming, missing columns, permanently dark splodges and being completely unresponsive (I guess that could be all columns missing).

author: lasmux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 02:51:07 pm
content: Most devices out there, including flash storage etc aren't really tested for 'shelf life' when the device isn't powered on, as it's normally so long to make it an irrelevant problem, so it's a difficult question. Anything with a chemical process will have a more defined shelf life, such as already mentioned electrolytics, but also things like gas sensors etc. Another factor is dendrite growth due to ROSH compatible solders. Since everyone started using SAC305 for everything, we may in future years start seeing a lot of devices starting to fail in unexpected ways. That said the device has to be powered on for this to happen, so it's not fully applicable to your question.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 03:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 01, 2022, 12:09:33 pmAre you assuming designers make 50 year lifespan at elevated temperature their top priority? How many consumers do you think care about 50 year reliability? The number of people who purchase phones without replaceable batteries is evidence that many consumers do not care for even a 10 year lifespan.

author: iJoseph2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 04:40:55 pm
content: This is an interesting thread... I really hope the flash in older cars lasts over 50 years.The engine ECU is obviously important, but the ABS units have the ability to actuate the brakes ... I can imagine a failure mode could even actuate the brake on just one wheel and be very dangerous.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 04:51:10 pm
content: The good news is that I can't think of an ECU that would not checksum its main flash memory and bail out if the checksum fails to match. In the ABS case, that would light the fault lamp and land you a repair bill for a new ABS computer, but probably not end up with you in a ditch.Also the flash in these systems tends to be of a higher grade and much lower density, the program for an ABS computer or ECU is probably under 1MB and would be stored in NOR flash rather than the higher density NAND. NOR flash has much better lifespan. If it is NAND, it will be infrequently written and will be of a higher standard, SLC or pseudo-SLC or similar.Automotive systems have much higher standards generally but then you have manufacturers like Tesla using eMMC in important infotainment systems (big touchscreen that controls the speedo and defogger) which can still go bad. I am most worried about those because they are probably quite expensive to repair and nowadays they control a lot about a car, I know for instance on an EV you wouldn't be able to change charging settings if the head unit went bad.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 05:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on December 01, 2022, 03:03:17 pmIt's not about 50 years, it's about the fact that if designers fuck this up, it happens like tom66 described - snarky, overconfident designers go on dismissing the problem interns bring up by going "oh well, 50 years at elevated temperature is not our top priority" strawman, while failing to actually define what their lifetime targetisor provideanycalculation of it whatsoever, and as a result, it lasts only a year, and company loses a lot of money fixing the problem, maybe resulting in failure of the company.No need to be "top priority". Normal design practices are enough - use internal MCU flash for firmware, check the ratings of any external flash -, and flash life is not a problem. And if you fail to do that, who knows how badly you failed it?50 years was just an example of being completely normal rating by nearly all MCU manufacturers, nothing expensive or special about that, contrary to what you seem to think.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 06:04:52 pm
content: For example, a cheap commodity microcontroller from ST, isguaranteed:Data retention: 1 kcycle (2) at TA = 85 °C: 30 years(https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/stm32f401re.pdfpage 87)And if they guarantee the parts for 30 years at +85, it is obvious to the designer a shelf-life will never be a problem, actual problems start appearing long after 50 years, unless ST produces crap.You get similar guarantees for all flash based microcontrollers. No one would buy a microcontroller if the flash was rated for 15 years at 25 degC.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 06:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on December 01, 2022, 12:18:19 pmWhat a sobering report. Thanks for the heads-up. I wouldn't have expect this from Canon.While everybody with enough dough goes mirrorless, I expected to use my DSLR gear for the next decade or so. 5DmkIV, 6DmkI, 700D, 600D, same 100-400mm as you, gave away an inexplicably broken 70-200mm F/4 (aha!). My better lenses are Tamron these days (among others, a 150-600mm G2, for the birds).Have you checked the situation with independent repair shops? Can they get hold of, for lack of a better term, Chinese replacement parts?Canon maintenance has always been expensive and Tamron Germany won't even touch my lenses, because I had the audacity to buy them (new) in Japan.At any rate, your report should prove that investing in a mint condition camera equipment collection may have its hazards.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 06:39:49 pm
content: Siwastaja, you called bs on a comment about FW retention of 30-50 years.Then you linked an MCU that is rated for 30 years. Does that mean Berni's comment was not bs? Or are you saying anyone that uses that is a "total moron"?You originally saidat least50 years at elevated temp or you're a total moron. I guess what you meant was "about" 50 years?You've used a comment about cycle life related to streaming video to support your argument. Does FW typically get rewritten hundreds of times?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 07:11:34 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on December 01, 2022, 06:39:49 pmSorry for failing to quote the exact part - the claim that flash is becoming more and more unreliable and embedded devices "mask" this unreliability by ECC is BS - unless the designer puts the firmware on some random cheap SD card or similar unsuitable flash technology, which is, I think, moronic and a mistake.The 30-50 year part of the comment is not BS IMHO.QuoteYes, thank you.QuoteI commented about theattitudeof ignoring such obvious issues, even when pointed out to the designer. It doesn't matter if the exact mechanisms is wear out by too many erase-write cycles (the video time shift example), or due to aging by choosing completely inappropriate flash technology when the right technology is right in the front of their eyes - in either case, designer failed to do their job. And for the firmware part, it's not rocket science, choosing a normal microcontroller gets you into theguaranteed30-50 years retention. And now this is relevant to the OP - if the flash is guaranteed to 30 years at +85 degCandbeing written 1K times, actual retention at +25degC and 1 write (at production) is going to be significantly more, possibly 100 years.Sorry for lowish-quality post which was argumentative for no reason. I really just wanted to comment about the ECC part since the higher-end MCUs which have the ECC at all, this ECC can be configured to generate a failure interrupt, where the failure can be logged and handled - quite theoppositeof masking the "increasing unreliability" of flash.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 07:29:09 pm
content: Siwastaja, thank you for clarifying. When you try to discredit people's posts, it's good to include a clear explanation.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 07:42:35 pm
content: I never specifically mentioned MCUs having there flash firmware rot away.Yes you will not easily find manufacturers specifying a rated flash data retention rate of 50 years or more. It is generally specified for around 10 to 40 years. But this is just what the manufacturer guarantees. The MCUs generally contain some of the best flash memory because they are forced to use the same fab process to produce the CPU, SRAM and Flash as one single die. This prevents them from implementing the most dense flash technology, so the flash cells are big and is the reason why you generally don't see MCUs with more than 1 or 2 MB of built in flash. Some MCUs (Like the larger ARM chips from ST) even put ECC on that already reliable flash, making it that much more solid. So while manufacturers don't guarantee it and products are not designed for it, it still is likely that most of those MCUs will indeed live 50 years just fine. Tho after that they might indeed start giving up the ghost, but i will likely be dead by then anyway.Still no reason to call those people morons. A lot of modern products are not designed to last on purpose, because it is bad for business long term to sell people products that last a lifetime. For example a lot of LED bulbs are crap on purpose. Just as little care is given to the lifetime of a modern mobile phone, it will be obsolete well before the 10 year mark anyway.However modern products are outgrowing humble microcontrollers these days. So they have SOCs running a full on OS, as a result needing flash memory that reaches into 100s of MB. These capacities are only cost effective on dense NAND flash manufactured on optimized flash specific nodes. So most of these SOCs have external NAND flash in some form (be it raw nand chip or some controlered kind like eMMC and similar) that tends to be the cheep end stuff and placed near the toasty running processor chip. To top it off they tend to place the bootloader and OS filesystem in the same chip. These are the kinds of devices that i am going to constantly see around me bricking themselves well within my lifetime. The particularly annoying part is that often that bootloader inside the rotting flash chip is required to do the manufacturer approved firmware update procedure, so the product can't be fixed without taking it apart. Tho a lot of SOCs and even some MCUs have built in bootloaders in ROM that let you push new firmware into them over USB and such, but the device manufacturers usually do not expose those for the user.The worrying part is when this awful high density NAND ends up in products that do make sense to last a long time, like an oscilloscope or in a car(I am sure someone else will eventually have a Tesla like moment with there infotainment shitting itself).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 07:53:24 pm
content: I think "infotainment" systems are about the dumbest thing ever to come to cars. Just give me physical switches, knobs, sliders and indicator lights, and a proper DIN slot so I can select the head unit of my choice and upgrade it as needed.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 08:12:53 pm
content: Quote from: harerod on December 01, 2022, 06:31:12 pmI'm certainly no longer of the opinion that camera equipment is any kind of investment.When I originally upgraded from standard consumer lenses to 'L' series, I figured that although they were expensive, they should at least last well. I am, after all, an occasional hobby photographer, and not a working professional.Unfortunately it appears that this kit was never intended to last a long time. It's certainly robust enough for heavy use, and I don't doubt that occasional servicing will see it give a working pro a good return on investment - but when each item has been superseded, it may be time to seriously consider trading it in before parts become unavailable.It'll be interesting to see what support is like for DSLRs now the world is clearly going mirrorless. I'm not that keen on Canon's commercial approach here; RF lenses are considerably more costly than their already expensive EF cousins, and I understand that they've sued 3rd party manufacturers who have tried to release RF compatible lenses that might compete with them. That's not an action that consumers should turn a blind eye to, IMHO.I recently discovered that they also no longer make a RAW conversion SDK available, so if I were to switch to any cameras much newer than the ones I have today, I'll have to change my software workflow too. That's also a backward step commercially - again IMHO.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 10:23:29 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 01, 2022, 07:53:24 pmIt may have changed now, but you can usually get trim kits and adapter cables for your car to allow you to install nearly anything, like an Android head unit.Of course, the infotainment systems in these vehicles often control other things, like the HVAC, TPMS, maintenance warnings etc... And there's no common standard for those, so you'll probably lose those.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 01:39:09 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 01, 2022, 12:09:33 pmI have an over 20 year old P&P machine. A fair amount of stuff has gone bad on it. Last year, one of the main servo amps started causing violent banging moves on occasion. Then, it finally stopped working at all, powering up with an error display that wasn't in the manual. A replacement unit fixed it. Then, the other axis started doing the same thing, and finally failed to power up. These have some flavor of micro on the control board, and I am pretty sure this was a failure of embedded PROM memory inside the CPU.Jon

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 01:49:44 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 01, 2022, 10:23:29 pmWhich is precisely the problem I'm complaining about. Critical features of the car are integrated into these silly systems, you can't just remove them and install something else.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 06:30:46 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 02, 2022, 01:49:44 amIt doesn't bother me as much that car infotainment systems can't be swapped out since they have generally caught up in regard to features. If they still have a CD drive they can play MP3 CDs, they can play music from a USB flash drive, they got AUX jacks etc.. They are also getting Google car play in there so you can mirror your phone screen up onto them to use google maps for navigation. So there is a lot less reason to swap one out. As long as they are made reliable to not break and need replacement. We will see how reliable they end up, Tesla certainly was not off to a good start.However i do hate the new trend of replacing all the physical knobs with a giant touchscreen. You can't do anything anymore by blindly reaching for a knob by feel. You have to actually look all the way down to press a button that you end up missing because a bump in the road made your arm swing over to the next button. If it is illegal to use your phone while you drive, then how is it legal to put these giant touchscreens in cars. If anything using a phone is less distracting since you can hold your phone where your dash gauges would be, letting you see both the road and the screen.My car from 2013 is a bit of a in between mix. It has an infotainment system, but no touchscreen yet, so all knobs are physical and they even work while the infotainment is still booting up. So id still keep most of my other functionality without it. However the infotainment uses a mechanical hard drive for storage (You can even hear it seeking when you turn the car on) so that likely means no high density flash is needed... but is mechanical so it could wear out. Not sure why the designers went this route, maybe they felt that flash was not up to the job back then.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 06:35:13 am
content: Quote from: Berni on December 02, 2022, 06:30:46 amI'm mostly concerned with how well it will age. I've played with a few 5-8 year old tablets and they are pretty useless at this point. My daily driver is 32 years old and still going strong, I can repair virtually any part of it. I don't think we will see a lot of 32 year old cars still on the road 20 years from now, they're all incredibly complex and loaded with technology that becomes obsolete.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 08:14:15 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 onYesterdayat 21:12:53Two great additional points, thank you.The lenses are the reason that I am with Canon in the first place. I had access to a professional's collection of lenses, which made me buy the 600D. Over time I bought my own collection of L-glass and those couple of fullframe bodies. Since Canon is obsoleting the EF-bayonet and degrading performance of EF-lenses that use an EF-RF-adapter by firmware (not first hand experience, but reported from different people), there is no reason to stay with them to protect the investment.Therefore firmware controlled obsolescence is another item that could weigh heavier than the shelf life of the electronics.Also thank you for reminding us about the RAW-converter problem. I am still using an old Lightroom 6 permanent license. At least for the time being, alternatives to Adobe are available, at a quite reasonable cost (looking at Capture One permanent license).I think the main problem that drives users crazy, is that we have to worry aboutplannedartificial obsolescense on top of any real hardware issues.Most recent example is the bullshit design of this water cooker (https://www.braunhousehold.com/de-de/multiquick-5-wasserkocher-wk-500-white/p/WK500WH), where they pipe steam from the kettle into the electric compartment to trigger a bi-metal spring. This thing will just fail after a predermined number of cycles. There are way more subtle tricks to booby trap a camera design.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 11:21:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 02, 2022, 06:35:13 amIt's going to depend on the functionality. The 7 year old infotainment system in my Golf is still fine, as fast as it ever was (it's not too bad to be honest). It has bugs, but those bugs have been there since I first got the car. If it's a device that writes a lot to internal storage (e.g. an Android-based system), then the reliability will be more questionable. Also, it's worth noting that these systems tend to be built to higher standards than a cheap Android tablet. Residual value is important for car buyers and it impacts lease costs.Second what others have said about purely touchscreen interfaces. Great for a mobile phone but not for a car, not until we get true full self driving!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 11:42:35 am
content: QuoteNot even then - there would still be the problem of jolts and random accelerations preventing accurate operation of a purely touch interface.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 11:52:52 am
content: Quote from: pcm81 on December 01, 2022, 03:04:52 amYour concern seems to be that the ingredients used toassemblea circuit board (PCB substrate, traces, solder) are shorter-lived than the actual components? I don't think that is an issue in practice, and certainly not if the complete device is stored under conditions which are favorable for precision opto-mechanical assemblies: Moderate temperatures, limited humidity, no permanent vibrations.A lot of the feedback you received above is based on actual experience -- people do use and repair old computers, test and measurement equipment, audio electronics etc. Some components are more prone to failure than others, as discussed above; but I don't recall ever seeing, or reading about, PCBs disintegrating or traces just corroding away on their own. (Unless a battery or electrolytic capacitor has spilled their corrosive guts...)Solder joints may deteriorate into "cold joints" or develop cracks if parts run very hot, expand and shrink a lot under temperature cycles, or are subjected to mechanical vibrations without being properly supported. Again, none of these should occur in a precision (and low-power) device like a photography camera.Cameras for very low-light use, e.g. in astronomy or high-end microscopy, use actively deep-cooled image sensors, and are somewhat likely to suffer from problems in that area sooner or later. The high temperature differences between operation and storage will cause mechanical stress on solder joints, and also on the seal of the (often evacuated) chamber which encloses the sensor.Edit: Oh, and contact surfaces which are exposed to the environment can be a weak spot of course: IC sockets, connectors to internal or external wiring, contacts inside switches. That's where oxidationcanbite... .

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 12:25:46 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 01, 2022, 12:09:33 pmRead all replies above and wanted to address this one specifically, because it talks about camera gear. Just dropped 3K on lightly used Nikon D5 with 25K shutter actuations. In comparison i have 16K shutter actuations on my D800, which i got in 2013 and it is still in mint condition. D800 is rated by nikon at 200K shutter actuations and D5 at 400K. So naturally came to realization that my cameras will eventually die of old age, not due to me using them beyond their operational lifespan. Hence this thread. Lots of companies do testing for MTBF vs cycles or OP time, but i have not ever seen a spec for electronic assembly shelf life, especially when it is with intermittent use, hence allowing for basic self maintenance to occur such as refreshing charge in non-volatile memory etc.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 10:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on December 02, 2022, 11:42:35 amThey don't work well in the cold either, I suspect it's when the air is dry. Or if you have gloves on which I sometimes do in the winter. Winter is also a time that I suspect will cause a lot of "self driving" tech to utterly fail. How does a Tesla which uses only cameras tell where the road is when there's a coating of snow over it and the entire road is solid white as happened here the other day? How does any self driving car know that the road is likely to be covered in black ice and slow down preemptively?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 12:14:18 am
content: QuoteDoesn't matter - it's got no choice which ditch it's going to end up in after all