Lattice has silently removed free iCEcube2 license and now charging $471 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ErikSwan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 07:45:27 pm
content: Hi everyone,This is my first post here but I wanted to make you guys aware of this and hopefully apply some community pressure to Lattice to reverse this decision.In short, Lattice has removed the free license for iCEcube2 (used for developing for the iCE40 line of FPGAs) and is now charging $471.31 for a one year license and $353.15 to renew each additional year:https://alchitry.com/news/icecube2-no-longer-free/This is probably chump change for a company that is using the iCE40 line in a shipping product, but it's a huge blow for the hobbyist and student community where iCE40 development boards were some of the most simple and affordable development boards you could get for learning about FPGAs.Personally, I had just purchased Russell Merrick's book "Getting Started with FPGAs" and his nandland Go board for a family member who was interested in learning about FPGAs and digital design, only to find out that there's no way to follow the projects in the book and develop for the board using the official toolchain without paying $471.31 for an iCEcube2 license.Unfortunately, it seems like Lattice has a history of this (1,2), so my hopes for them reversing this change are not high.But I would ask that if you are willing, please send an email togeneral_inquiries@latticesemi.comto express your disappointment about this decision and explain how this change destroys the ecosystem of beginner development boards and books based around the iCE40 line.Perhaps if Lattice gets enough negative feedback they will reverse the decision or at least make an free license option available for students and individuals.EDIT:I'm not sure when Lattice made this change as I never received a direct reply from them, but as of May 4, 2024, it appears like Lattice has added a "Makers Community" license option tothe iCEcube2 pagewhich pretty much restores the free license option for everyone but established commercial companies:QuoteThis is exactly what I was asking for, so thank you for listening, Lattice!

author: amwales
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 07:53:03 pm
content: bugger, I received a couple of the ice40 dev boards for christmas a couple of years ago, after getting an led lighting up I put it away to play with at some later date, looks like it's going to be garbage now, such a shame

author: Andy Watson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 07:55:03 pm
content: I thought the low-end Lattice FPGAs were supported by open-source software?https://clifford.at/icestormEven Lattice acknolege the existence of open-source development boads:https://www.latticesemi.com/en/Solutions/Solutions/SolutionsDetails01/CommunitySourcedperhaps that's why they pulled the plug on offering their own software for free.

author: ErikSwan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 08:20:53 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Watson on April 19, 2024, 07:55:03 pmThey are, but the tools are unofficial and not really suitable for beginners.For one, theofficial GitHub projecthas only a single link in the README which goes toa broken URL. If you manage to find what seems to bethe best reference page at the moment(never mind that it's on a website filled with gambling advertisements and SEO spam) you'll find that to use the toolchain you need to clone each tool's source from GitHub, build them from source, and work through the build errors and dependency hell on your choice of Linux or macOS (Windows not supported). Then if you get the tools built you'll need to consult the documentation of 3 or 4 different tools to figure out the right command line options to run synthesis, place and route, bitstream packing, and programming for your development board.Not a huge deal for an experienced user with the time to figure it out and get everything up and running, but it's absolutely not a replacement for iCEcube2 for someone who just bought their first FPGA dev board and a "Getting started with FPGAs" book.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 08:53:03 pm
content: This is really disappointing news if this yearly charge applies.The open source tools do not support VHDL as far as I'm aware, so that's not an option for some.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 08:55:53 pm
content: They did the same a few years ago for ISPLever software for the EC series and CPLDs. I suspect they have to pay for licensing of some parts of the software, but seems a pretty dumb move to charge for software to use their low-end parts

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 09:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on April 19, 2024, 08:53:03 pmYes it does! There's a GHDL plugin for Yosys that handles VHDL, and it works pretty well.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 09:24:06 pm
content: If this is Lattice's strategy, unfortunately we might see the same happening with Diamond within maybe just a few years, as Diamond has clearly stopped being developed and they are implementing the support of all their new parts in Radiant.So, people using MachXO/2/3 and ECP5, in particular, may end up in the same situation.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2024, 11:15:15 pm
content: Yeah all those cheap FPGA boards with their devices suddenly turned into pumpkins. I wonder why such a decision was made, as I can't really see them making any kind of serious money with that, but it's guaranteed to drive away customers and prospects alike...That said, I always thought that their approach of supporting a whole bunch of different toolchains is kind of wasteful and unsustainable in the long term. It seems much more efficient and cheaper to have a single toolchain which supports all devices.

author: cfbsoftware
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2024, 01:28:38 am
content: Quote from: ErikSwan on April 19, 2024, 07:45:27 pmQuotehttps://www.latticesemi.com/Support/Licensing

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2024, 09:26:45 am
content: Quote from: asmi on April 19, 2024, 11:15:15 pmMaybe, but once an old toolchain is stable and unlikely to need adding new devices of the families it supports, it may be cheaper to just leave it alone and not risk breaking it adding a new device family.ISTR ICE40 was originally bought from another vendor (Siliconblue?), so that may also be a factor.Given the choice between completely abandoning an old tool and charging for it, the latter is probably preferable, though charging for a tool for devices which are still current and not superceded seems shortsighted.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2024, 10:42:59 am
content: I gave up on them years ago when the did the same with ispLever, no more design ins from me, stupid people

author: ErikSwan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 20, 2024, 07:28:47 pm
content: Quote from: cfbsoftware on April 20, 2024, 01:28:38 amThis is great for students that are already in a EE/CE program, but it's very limited - it doesn't include high school students, elementary school students, general hobbyists who may be out of school or in school for something other than EE/CE, etc.Thankfully, there is a little bit of hope - Russell Merrick, the nandland.com guy, has been in contact with Lattice and is trying to get them to reverse this change:https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/1c7zy49/icecube2_no_longer_free_now_47131/l0ctmsu/

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2024, 11:31:32 am
content: Do they at least have the decency to support or update it if they are charging for it?last time I checked IceCube2 was basically dead/unsupported/not touched in a while. I took that as a "we have support guarantees to sustain the older ICE40 line of parts, but you probably shouldn't design them into new things"

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2024, 11:41:09 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 19, 2024, 08:55:53 pmare there clones of the iCE40? if so, maybe they just don't want to be supplying free tools to people that don't use their parts?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2024, 08:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: ConKbot on April 21, 2024, 11:31:32 amI don't think so. And I agree that charging for software that is basically abandonware is a scam.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2024, 03:38:08 am
content: Google 'lattice semiconductor financials'Sadly, they are large enough that the very few who will actually dish out $471 wont help the company in any meaningful way, maybe just trying to raise their quarterly financials. They are performing just ok enough that they might soon be bought out.Looking at the past 5 years, 2023 began with a boom for Lattice, then something happened back in November 2023 where it appears they almost lost everything they gained the years prior. Now it looks like Lattice is trying to get back to where they were a year ago...Lattice Stock last 5 yearsIn an effort to punch up their value for 2023, somehow Lattice for the first time offloaded a ton of debt and liability seen here:Lattice FinancialsThey must have done something quick to inflate their stock value.

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2024, 08:11:39 am
content: How did it work before? For how long was a free license valid? Did it require internet connection to run?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2024, 09:24:12 am
content: Quote from: c64 on April 24, 2024, 08:11:39 amFrom memory in the case of ISPLever, I think it was a free renewal every 6 months or a year, fairly sure it only needed internet connection for renewal so potentially amenable to clock manipulation hacks.

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2024, 03:41:37 pm
content: It is entirely a guess but it might be due to accounting methodology. I've seen quite a few times in my career a department or portion of the company having its cost compared to the direct revenue it generates. However, figuring out the overall revenue it provides to the company is much harder to calculate so it isn't done. This results in the numbers looking really bad. Software development at a hardware company usually has this problems. IT departments are even worse. You add up software license revenue and compare it to development costs and it looks very bad. But you wouldn't be selling any hardware without the software... doesn't matter, this isn't calculated so it doesn't count.So it could be an effort to reduce this gap. The cost to Lattice in terms of future hardware sales by not having freely licensed software isn't easily measured. But software license sales are easy to measure and count. Having hard numbers are much better when defending your decisions to your boss or investors.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2024, 10:00:59 pm
content: Quote from: c64 on April 24, 2024, 08:11:39 amLattice licensing generally speaking is based on license files that must be renewed every year. You don't need an internet connection to run the tools, but you need one to ask for the license - they send it by mail.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2024, 03:42:57 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 24, 2024, 10:00:59 pmTechnically you can request a license from any device, it doesn't have to be the actual target pc - as long as you know the MAC address, that's all you needed. So it's possible to use the license on a totally offline/isolated pc.

author: ErikSwan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 04, 2024, 11:43:48 pm
content: I'm not sure when Lattice made this change as I never received a direct reply from them, but as of today, it appears like Lattice has added a "Makers Community" license option tothe iCEcube2 pagewhich pretty much restores the free license option for everyone but established commercial companies:QuoteThis is exactly what I was asking for, so thank you for listening, Lattice!

author: trossin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2024, 02:06:31 am
content: I emailed them yesterday to complain and got an email back with the same info. I guess the pressure we all applied worked out.

author: Jope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2024, 03:11:17 pm
content: Russell Merrick (Nandland.com) has posted this on Reddit today:iCEcube2 (Lattice FPGA build tools) are free again for hobbyists, start-ups, and educators! Yay!

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2025, 01:35:31 am
content: Well this is significantly more frustrating than I expected it to be. It's been years since I worked with an ICE40 part and I didn't know they decided to be dicks and limit free licenses. Now it's after hours and who knows how long it will take to get my "startup license" that I had to request by email.It's funny that the error message when I try to run IceCube2 without a license is:"Your 30 days free license has expired. Please fax your License File/Registration and license request request form to Lattice Semiconductor Corp"I never had a "30 day free license" on this computer. And I certainly don't have a fax machine. Plus IceCube2 hasn't been updated since 2020 it looks like. Silly.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2025, 10:29:36 am
content: I gave up using those jokers as soon as I discovered that, some years back now.Shame they did have quite a useful range of parts but plenty of competition out there now with FREE tools.If you don't want to sell your silicon charge for your tools...simples!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2025, 05:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 16, 2025, 01:35:31 amYou may want to take a look at APIO. It's an easy to use open suite that is actively maintained and covers all aspects of FPGA design including, build, upload, lint, formatting, testing, and simulation. It was inspired from the simplicity of platformio, with a project fileapio,iniand commands such asapio build,apio upload,apio test, and so on. It supports ICE40 among other architectures and runs on Windows, Mac and Linux.(I am a user but also contributed some code and can point you to more information).

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2025, 08:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 17, 2025, 05:03:42 pmThanks for the info. APIO actually looks pretty good, but it's Verilog only. I have only worked in VHDL, and the demo examples from Lattice are also VHDL. It would not be the end of the world to learn Verilog and translate the demos or find alternates, but I would rather avoid another project on top of the existing projects.I got an automated email from Lattice licensing saying they are all out on easter vacation. So we will see what happenes next week when they get back.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 06:49:21 am
content: There is a free 1y license for ICE40UP in their "Radiant IDE", as I saw on their web pages(pages broken today, it seems)..Yeah, web is working.. Downloaded IceCube2 for win and lin, both are from Dec2020, so it seems they are obsolete..Radiant win/lin is from Dec2024..

author: gerbay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 07:06:15 am
content: Lattice Radiant only supports ICE40 ultra plus (there is no support full ice40 family)

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 07:07:53 am
content: Yea, just updated my above post..I am going to ask for icecube2 license (via an email to their support), we will see..

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 01:14:23 pm
content: Yes. The iCE40UP series is great, but very limited in terms of IOs. The largest package is a 48-pin QFN.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 01:45:26 pm
content: Just have installed the Radiant free lic for ice40up - it took 30.3GB (full install)..With ice40UP family only it takes 6.44GB (and the IDE's start takes ~30secs on my machine, with the full install ~7minutes)..And 5secs with ice40UP family only and when unchecking all tickers in Tools->Options->Startup..Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 21, 2025, 01:14:23 pm..and not too speedy as well. But ok for smaller designs, imho.

author: gerbay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 07:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on April 21, 2025, 01:45:26 pmiCEcube2.2020.12 windows edition full install took 3.12 GB ...Approximately 10% of Radiant..

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 08:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: gerbay on April 21, 2025, 07:01:16 pmThe most important thing is that it will work reliably. Size is secondary.

author: gerbay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 08:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 21, 2025, 08:21:48 pmDoesn't iceCube2 work reliably? I didn't see any flaws. Am I missing something?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2025, 08:34:13 pm
content: Quote from: gerbay on April 21, 2025, 08:27:03 pmI didn't say that. My point is that if it works well, that's what count.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2025, 12:46:43 am
content: iCE40 UltraPlus ICE40UP5K-SG48I = $9.94 in 24s+https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/lattice-semiconductor-corporation/ICE40UP5K-SG48I/7785190vs...iCE40 Ultra ICE5LP1K-SG48ITR = $5.50 in 24s+https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/lattice-semiconductor-corporation/ICE5LP1K-SG48ITR/5324261I don't actually need the extra size or memory, so it's just extra money for my application to use the ultra plus. I would need to sell an extra 100 units/year to make up the $500 license fee and break even on the ICE5LP1K+license

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2025, 12:56:36 am
content: Note, the iCE40UP5K is about $5 per 100 @ LCSC.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2025, 05:39:05 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 22, 2025, 12:56:36 am* 150% = ....

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2025, 06:03:23 am
content: I did(2017-2019) with Yosys/IceStormfree linux ice40 dev tool and it worked fine. It was not so efficient as the original icecube and radiant (it was at the beginning of their effort of reverse engineering of the ice40 family), but pretty close. Perhaps it works even better today..https://github.com/YosysHQPS: there is a complete linux/arm/macOS and win10/11 "bundled complete" version ofhttps://github.com/YosysHQ/oss-cad-suite-buildhttps://github.com/YosysHQ/oss-cad-suite-build/releases/tag/2025-04-22which, after the download and clicking on it (win11 version), extracts automatically into an ~1.7GB large folder (downloaded, installed, but not tried yet)..

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2025, 11:06:12 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on April 22, 2025, 06:03:23 amApio is based on yosys as well as other open source tools such as iverilog, verible, gtkwave, and iceprog, and it simplifies the installation and usage using a simple project file and commands such as 'apio build', 'apio upload', 'apio test' and so on. You can think of it as platformio for FPGAs.For example, this sample project can be built and uploaded using 'apio upload', or being simulated using 'apio sim'.https://github.com/FPGAwars/apio-examples/tree/master/examples/alhambra-ii/ledonApio has self contained bundles and installers for win, mac, and linux here (in the 'artifacts' section):https://github.com/FPGAwars/apio/actions/runs/14585026031// winhttps://github.com/FPGAwars/apio/actions/runs/14584574815// machttps://github.com/FPGAwars/apio/actions/runs/14584522553// linux

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2025, 08:46:54 am
content: Interesting, it seems it works.. (win10):Code:C:\Users\Smith\Code\Apio\up5kblink>apio examples fetch ice40-up5k/blinkyCopying ice40-up5k/blinky example files.Example 'ice40-up5k/blinky' fetched successfully.C:\Users\Smith\Code\Apio\up5kblink>apio buildSetting the environment.Processing board ←[36mice40-up5k←[0m------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------yosys -p "synth_ice40 -top rgb_test -json _build\hardware.json" -q blink.vnextpnr-ice40 --up5k --package sg48 --json _build\hardware.json --asc _build\hardware.asc --report _build\hardware.pnr --pcf up5k.pcf -qicepack _build\hardware.asc _build\hardware.bin============================================= [←[32mSUCCESS← Took 3.28 seconds =============================================Directory of C:\Users\Smith\Code\Apio\up5kblinkWed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 <DIR> .Wed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 <DIR> ..Wed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 3,354 .sconsign.dbliteWed, 23-Apr-25 10:34 47 apio.iniWed, 23-Apr-25 10:34 395 blink.vWed, 23-Apr-25 10:34 107 up5k.pcfWed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 <DIR> _build4 File(s) 3,903 bytesDirectory of C:\Users\Smith\Code\Apio\up5kblink\_buildWed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 <DIR> .Wed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 <DIR> ..Wed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 725,784 hardware.ascWed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 104,090 hardware.binWed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 429,741 hardware.jsonWed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 13,146 hardware.pnrWed, 23-Apr-25 10:36 676 scons.params5 File(s) 1,273,437 bytesBtw, it adds some weird strings into the printouts.. like a small bug there (cmd and powershell in win10).PS: the printout looks ok in win11 cmd:Code:Setting the environment.Processing board ice40-up5k------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------yosys -p "synth_ice40 -top rgb_test -json _build\hardware.json" -q blink.vnextpnr-ice40 --up5k --package sg48 --json _build\hardware.json --asc _build\hardware.asc --report _build\hardware.pnr --pcf up5k.pcf -qicepack _build\hardware.asc _build\hardware.bin=============================================  Took 5.64 seconds =============================================It even builds my old UP5k 16b mecrispforth machine (after some minor edits in .v sources) in 28seconds, that is pretty fast..Code:C:\Users\Smith\Code\Apio\mecrispforth15k>apio cleanSetting the environment.Processing board upduino2------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Removed .sconsign.dbliteRemoved _build\hardware.ascRemoved _build\hardware.binRemoved _build\hardware.jsonRemoved _build\hardware.pnrRemoved _build\scons.paramsRemoved directory _build=============================================  Took 2.20 seconds =============================================C:\Users\Smith\Code\Apio\mecrispforth15k>apio buildSetting the environment.Processing board upduino2------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------yosys -p "synth_ice40 -top top -json _build\hardware.json" -q j1.v j1a.v stack2.v uart.vWarning: wire '\insn' is assigned in a block at j1a.v:1033.5-1033.17...nextpnr-ice40 --up5k --package sg48 --json _build\hardware.json --asc _build\hardware.asc --report _build\hardware.pnr --pcf j1a.pcf -qicepack _build\hardware.asc _build\hardware.bin=============================================  Took 27.84 seconds =============================================

author: xvr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2025, 01:57:03 pm
content: QuoteThis is ANSI control sequencies (for text color manipulation). Win 10 terminal do not support them, Win 11 do. (Linux also supports them)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2025, 11:09:52 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on April 23, 2025, 08:46:54 amA few tips for Apio users.1. You can disable the text coloring using the commandapio preference --theme no-colors2. You can file any issue or questions you have in the 'issues' and 'discussion' section on github athttps://github.com/FPGAwars/apio, or ask here here or ping me. Apio is actively maintained.3. You can explore the commands using the '-h' flag. For example,apio -horapio build -h4. You can add custom fpgas and board definitions by adding fpgas.jsonc or borads.jsconc in your project directory.5. You can organize your source code in subdirectories under the project dir, apio will find them.6. (experimental) You can use System Verilog source and testbench files using the file extension .sv (instead of .v for verilog)7. You can explore the provided examples, e.g. runapio examples fetch alhambra-ii/bcd-counterin an empty directory and thenapio sim.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 01:54:13 am
content: Ha! Lattice license guys finally got back and gave me a 1 Year "startup" license to IceCube2.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 07:27:16 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 23, 2025, 11:09:52 pmThis is important as the wiki info and some command switches in the latest bin release are not in sync..

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 08:02:00 am
content: Quote from: iMo on April 21, 2025, 07:07:53 amGot it today..Note:Does not work in win11 (at least here)..Works in win7 (or win10 not tested yet).Edit: It works in win11..

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 08:16:10 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 24, 2025, 01:54:13 amNo good for product design, I have to support my customers for much much longer than that!Time bombed software is dangerousget you hooked then reel you in for lot's of money or simply refuse to renew, no thank you.It's either mine to keep or I don't want anything to do with it!

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 08:48:16 am
content: I never had any issue with renewing of the free licenses for their products. Free 1y licenses were renewed without a problem here.I issued perhaps twenty tickets to their support, afaik, always got a relevant response within a day/two or so.So their support worked fine here, I cannot complain.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 03:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on April 24, 2025, 07:27:16 amThe installers are of a newer version that is planned to be released soon and the wiki is yet to be updated. With the new version, the team tried to pack as much as possible help information in the program itself to make it easier to sync between the code and the documentation. The -h texts are more detailed and theapio infocommand provides additional information that is not command specific, for example when runningapio info optionsorapio info cli

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 03:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on April 24, 2025, 08:16:10 amWhy do companies like this require a license, since anyway it's limited to their own devices? Do they need to pay royalties upstream and want to minimize it? Is this a way to track usage and customers?

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 04:08:43 pm
content: There are products of third parties involved in their sw bundles. And also they want to track and perhaps vet..

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 04:31:05 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on April 24, 2025, 03:19:46 pmhas some of they device not been cloned? so they are supplying the tool to enable their competition

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 06:50:49 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 22, 2025, 05:39:05 amAccording to Lattice their manufacturing is in Malaysia and Taiwan and the latter has a 32 or 34% tariff (I forget off hand).https://www.latticesemi.com/support/answerdatabase/2/4/249Edit: page above also states they warehouse in Oregon, which means they're the importer and their pricing already reflects any duties.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 07:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: bson on April 24, 2025, 06:50:49 pmhttps://www.lcsc.com/about/workplace"Our warehouses are located in Guangdong and Jiangsu, with a new one currently in the pilot phase in Hong Kong."Are you making the claim that an order from LCSC, who's warehouses are in China, won't be subject to the full tariffs on China goods?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 07:12:23 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on April 24, 2025, 08:02:00 amRunning fine on windows11 here. No issues at all.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2025, 07:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 24, 2025, 07:11:39 pmI think that the tariff goes by the 'made in' location rather than the 'shipped from' location.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2025, 07:54:56 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 24, 2025, 07:12:23 pmOK, tried again in win11 24H2 and it works, it seems.. (except couple of freezes when importing files from different partition)..PS: out of my curiosity I've built the same mecrispforth machine for UP5k with icecube2 and it takes 3min 30secs here (about the number I can remember from past).The Apio did it in 28secs (as in my post above). That is suspiciously quick, TBH..I have not tested both bitstreams, but I would expect an issue somewhere..

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2025, 02:14:06 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on April 25, 2025, 07:54:56 amHow do the results ofapio reportcompare to those of the Latice tool?

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2025, 06:08:43 pm
content: Apio built it 7x faster, with less cells, with max 25MHz clock.IceCube2 indicates 32MHz max clock.The speed indication matches my findings from 7y back (also in hw)..Code:##########################################################APIO: 34secs##########################################################Device utilisation:ICESTORM_LC: 2694/ 5280 51%ICESTORM_RAM: 30/ 30 100%SB_IO: 28/ 96 29%SB_GB: 8/ 8 100%ICESTORM_PLL: 0/ 1 0%SB_WARMBOOT: 0/ 1 0%ICESTORM_DSP: 1/ 8 12%ICESTORM_HFOSC: 0/ 1 0%ICESTORM_LFOSC: 0/ 1 0%SB_I2C: 0/ 2 0%SB_SPI: 0/ 2 0%IO_I3C: 0/ 2 0%SB_LEDDA_IP: 0/ 1 0%SB_RGBA_DRV: 1/ 1 100%ICESTORM_SPRAM: 4/ 4 100%Max frequency for clock 'oscillator$SB_IO_IN_$glb_clk': 25.11 MHz (PASS at 12.00 MHz)apio report:--------------FPGA Resource Utilization┌──────────────────┬──────────┬──────────┬──────────┐│ RESOURCE │ USED │ TOTAL │ UTIL. │├──────────────────┼──────────┼──────────┼──────────┤│ ICESTORM_DSP │ 1 │ 8 │ 12% ││ ICESTORM_HFOSC │ │ 1 │ ││ ICESTORM_LC │ 2694 │ 5280 │ 51% ││ ICESTORM_LFOSC │ │ 1 │ ││ ICESTORM_PLL │ │ 1 │ ││ ICESTORM_RAM │ 30 │ 30 │ 100% ││ ICESTORM_SPRAM │ 4 │ 4 │ 100% ││ IO_I3C │ │ 2 │ ││ SB_GB │ 8 │ 8 │ 100% ││ SB_I2C │ │ 2 │ ││ SB_IO │ 28 │ 96 │ 29% ││ SB_LEDDA_IP │ │ 1 │ ││ SB_RGBA_DRV │ 1 │ 1 │ 100% ││ SB_SPI │ │ 2 │ ││ SB_WARMBOOT │ │ 1 │ │└──────────────────┴──────────┴──────────┴──────────┘Clock Information┌──────────────┬───────────────────┐│ CLOCK │ MAX SPEED  │├──────────────┼───────────────────┤│ oscillator │ 25.11 │└──────────────┴───────────────────┘#################################################################IceCube2: 3min40secs#################################################################Final Design StatisticsNumber of LUTs:2817Number of DFFs:1523Number of DFFs packed to IO:0Number of Carrys:168Number of RAMs:30Number of ROMs:0Number of IOs:27Number of GBIOs:1Number of GBs:5Number of WarmBoot:0Number of PLLs:0Number of I2Cs:0Number of SPIs:0Number of DSPs:1Number of SBIOODs:0Number of LEDDAIPs:0Number of RGBADRVs:1Number of LFOSCs:0Number of HFOSCs:0Number of FILTER_50NSs:0Number of SPRAMs:4Device Utilization SummaryLogicCells :2831/5280PLBs :445/660BRAMs :30/30IOs and GBIOs :28/36PLLs :0/1I2Cs :0/2SPIs :0/2DSPs :1/8SBIOODs :0/3RGBADRVs :1/1LEDDAIPs :0/1LFOSCs :0/1HFOSCs :0/1SPRAMs :4/4FILTER50NSs :0/2Clock Summary=====================================================================Number of clocks: 1Clock: top|oscillator | Frequency: 31.80 MHz | Target: 43.59 MHz=====================================================================From my github:Quote

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2025, 08:45:45 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on April 25, 2025, 06:08:43 pmVery interesting. Yosys (nextpnr) has a few additional arguments that can fine tune optimization but I didn't find a good discussion of them. (you can runapio raw -- nextpnr-ice40 -hto see them.Do you have a way to validate these difference in max speed? E.g. running the same design on the same IC with varying external clock speed until it fails? I wonder if the differneces are due to the placement/routing or due to the timing estimation.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2025, 08:47:40 pm
content: BTW, when you runapio report -vyou get also verbose information with the critical nets.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2025, 05:17:37 am
content: Quote from: zapta on April 25, 2025, 08:45:45 pmI did not make any special optimization in past with the design (basically experimenting with easy settings, like size vs. performance, etc.). I validated/compared that running at several hardwired frequencies.You may try to experiment while building the machine, write a forth program doing something and sending the results via the uart out. Input a 3.3Vpp 20-40MHz tunable square generator as the clock source and watch the uart results on a digital oscilloscope or LA (no need to adjust the baud rate then)..

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2025, 09:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 24, 2025, 07:11:39 pmThat in general depends not on where goods are shipped from but the country of origin, which is still Taiwan or Malaysia. Not sure if China is a special case.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 01:42:32 am
content: Quote from: bson on April 27, 2025, 09:04:39 pmThat's also my understanding. Otherwise it would be very easy to bypass the tariff by shipping through a third country.

author: iskel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 21, 2025, 11:50:12 am
content: Hello colleagues, can anyone share a recent experience on how long it takes to receive the "license.dat" file for a hobbyist/enthusiast? I've been waiting for more than two days now and no response from Lattice

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2025, 05:26:29 am
content: Quote from: iMo on April 24, 2025, 07:27:16 amThe updated documentation of Apio is athttps://fpgawars.github.io/apio/and should match the latest version. The wiki documentation can be ignored.

author: iskel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2025, 06:08:50 pm
content: Hooray-hooray-hooray! After a week of waiting and explanations and negotiations with support, I have a license, I even wrote a program(https://www.stm32dds.tk/data/files/flashing_leds.zip) to test that everything works. (The program was tested on the iCEstick Evaluation Kit). Thanks to the colleagues who "helped" me.