Ditching Eagle. CS or AD? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Jamie_A
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 03:09:56 am
content: I've been using Eagle for a year now, and am now ready to dive into a more professional tool. I'm a 2nd year EE student, and have no experience with Altium. Whats the consensus on CircuitStudio here? Disregarding price (university perks), would I be doing myself a disservice using CS with its simplified ribbon interface vs. the learning the full featured AD clunk? Will AD eventually adopt the CS interface? What are the differences in out of box library support? I linked in a comparison below for anyone that's interested. Curious for some input.https://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadBody/76216-102-1-315698/CS%20v%20AD%20Feature%20Comparison%20-%20Final.pdf

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 03:26:39 am
content: If price isn't a concern Altium is the best available tool for sure, specially if you check how often the product is updated and improved

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 06:07:46 am
content: Quote from: Jamie_A on July 14, 2016, 03:09:56 amIt is what those comparisonsdon'tsay that you need to worry about more.Check things like open ASCII file formats, and scripting support, and expiring licenses.CS price has just dropped, but Altiumwillbe protecting their turf, by crippling CS.I would suggest you also look at KiCad - more than one CAD pgm looks better on the resume, and Kicad is rapidly improving.With recent additions like the Shove router, and Python scripting, it's got some serious horsepower, (without any nobbling) and it can import Eagle and Altium (PCAD ASCII) files.

author: vzoole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 06:48:17 am
content: Learn Altium and you will know CS too. But it doesn't work backward.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 09:31:45 am
content: Will CS work 5 years from now, without internet? Eagle will.This is a key point. What use is a EDA that doesn't work in a few years because they took the license server offline, or they ceased to exist completely?I'd be using the availability of a patch as must-have condition before committing your IP to such tool.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 11:52:02 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on July 14, 2016, 03:26:39 amI wouldn't say that out loud. Altium seems to be a knee-yerk reaction but not the defacto best choice. There are so many other CAD packages out there in the same price range which might be better / easier to use. I'd definitely look at the Orcad package for example.

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 01:42:35 am
content: While you have the University Perks go with Altium. (Or one of the other big tools). You can move to CircuitStudio but you will get spoiled by the productivity tools in Altium.You want a tool that supports real design rule management, component supply chain management and post design management. Those are big things that employers will care about. The EAGLES and KiCads of the world will give you little to add to your resume. They are a tiny fraction of the market and have virtually no tools to help with complex design.And when you get a real job that requires you to do rigid flex, controlled impedance or something with a complicated stackup, You will be glad that you know a tool that actually helps with advanced PCB design.

author: Jamie_A
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 06:51:00 am
content: I think I'm going to go down the AD route given all of your feedback. No scripting on CS is a deal-breaker for me. I'll have access to AD a little under three years before needing a $8K license, so I should take advantage of it while I can. I'm eventually going to attempt a few projects with KiCad, but Eagle really leaves a lot to be desired. From a newbie perspective, AD just has so many aspects that make me uneasy:Relying on a license serverRelying on a server for default librariesInsane price for non-enterprise users ($8K is obscene for a lone designer)Proprietary/non-XML file format makes porting libraries a nightmareNo Linux support, which I guess is an unfortunate norm for engineering toolsI'm just going to make sure to build my own libraries while using AD, and hopefully they are portable to KiCad once my degree is done. I hear there has been some progress in this. It's a real shame that there isn't a comparable FOSS tool for layout, but I realise I'm dreaming on that one. I will definitely keep a close eye on KiCad.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 11:49:33 am
content: Quote from: Jamie_A on July 15, 2016, 06:51:00 amSounds a good idea.KiCad has moved a lot, even in the last 12 months, so in 3 years who knows how much further it will be.I doubt AD will still be 8k then.Quote from: Jamie_A on July 15, 2016, 06:51:00 amYou can test that now, as you can export PCAD ASCII from AD and import that into kiCad, for the PCB side.SCH side I'm less sure about, but I'm sure inside 3 years there will be something.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 04:09:50 pm
content: Designer if you have the cash. At least you can contact Altium directly for support.The CS support from Newark is non existent. I've been waiting three days for simple responses to simple questions. Good thing it's just a test flight not a real project.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 06:03:39 pm
content: If you have free access to AD then AD vs CS is a no-brainer. AD will look many times better on your CV. You can always go to CS for your personal or hobby needs but I'm guessing you're in college to eventually get a job. So: AD.

author: BMF
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 02:00:27 am
content: The PCB software market will be very interesting in the next couple of years. Altium is betting on CM+CS+AD+X2 being better than 1 or 2 packages. In my opinion it will fail just like Altium's other "big ideas". This time they might hurt their core AD market. Autodesk could redefine the standard of low cost software by getting MCAD and EDA right. They are a very capable and large company. Cadence and Mentor will not sit idle and give away market share. They are very competitive when pushed. If KiCad continues to improve and get support with add-on tools for simulation and analysis they could become a real player for more than the free market. I think many EDA users are tired of dealing with marketing and ready to see positive direction in open data and reasonable priced software. I'm cheering for KiCad. I would not put too much money into any product right now unless you are certain advanced PCB design is going to be your career path. In that case focus on Mentor or Cadence. Otherwise KiCad or <$1000 CS is not too bad. Just be ready to change.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 06:17:08 am
content: Quote from: BMF on July 18, 2016, 02:00:27 amYes.Quote from: BMF on July 18, 2016, 02:00:27 amCadence and Mentor do not get much choice.... they simply cannot move quickly enough.Quote from: BMF on July 18, 2016, 02:00:27 amCustomers are also tired of dealing with license issues, & high support payments, for scant improvement ......KiCad are already quite good, and I think Autodesk have called this about right, with 6 layers and less being very low cost/free, and above that for those employed as full time PCB design, which is far fewer than casual PCB designers.Many Engineers today, do both the Software and PCB design, so they are not actually full-time-PCB-designers.GCC serves many well for Software development, & KiCad will do the same for PCB design.Many of Mentor's & Cadence's & Altium's paying customers right now, are working in the 6 layers and under space, so thiswillaffect them.Even in larger customer sites, where a mix of seats exists, could find the test departments & lower volume seats going to KiCad etc.KiCad's next iteration in Schematic will be interesting, as I believe there is scope for widespread free SCH tool, feeding a mix of Free & Higher end PCB designs.Quote from: BMF on July 18, 2016, 02:00:27 amGood advice, if you can learn for free, then certainly do that.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 08:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 18, 2016, 08:25:01 amI agree, and Mentor are the vendor for PADS, (& crippled sub variants) hence my point.Also, Cadence sell OrCad, which will come under increasing threat, (as KiCad's SCH side improves) and OrCad is used as the front-end for a great many PCB flows.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2016, 09:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 18, 2016, 08:25:01 amIMHO the cheapest Orcad Capture + Allegro combo offered by Cadence also falls into the mid range field. Being an Orcad Capture CIS/Layout user I really wouldn't consider using Eagle or Kicad and that is mostly due to lack of parts logistics. There have been tons of low cost tools for decades (it never ceases to amaze me how many schematics/PCB tools are out there!) and they never have been able to eat into the mid range market.

author: BMF
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 06:51:20 pm
content: I worded my post poorly. I don't see the Autodesk+Eagle as a competitor to high end EDA. I do think they could impact Altium Designer assuming they make significant improvements to Eagle. As Altium moves to compete in the high end market with X2 I think they'll have an uphill battle against Mentor and Cadence. Autodesk, Cadence, and Mentor also have product diversity on their side. Unless Altium can pull this off I wouldn't be surprised to see Altium bought by one of the other companies.