Rogue communication devices found in Chinese solar power inverters - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 03:08:41 am
content: https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/climate-energy/ghost-machine-rogue-communication-devices-found-chinese-inverters-2025-05-14/Noticed that BYD was in that list, I guess soon they will be "building less dreams" or "backdooring your devices".

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 03:27:39 am
content: I was having this conversation with my business partner last night actually.These kinds of security and privacy risks from China is nothing new. Those in Government and in the industry have been aware of it for a long time (at least, in some countries).When it comes to consumer products, most people don't seem to care that they are driving a Chinese spy car, or that their phones allow remote access to their data. Plenty of people shrug it off with a "I have nothing to hide" attitude, and China loves this. But people don't seem to appreciate the big picture.Take this scenario for example: There's a huge flood of Chinese cars coming into the market and they're attractive to buyers because they do the job, and they are cheap. In Australia, Chinese vehicles are the fastest growing models in the industry, with something like 17% of deliveries last year being from Chinese manufacturers. What happens when there are a large number of these vehicles on the road and China wants to disrupt a nation? They could simply switch off those vehicles remotely, causing absolute traffic chaos. Emergency services can't get to where they need to be easily, transport is disrupted, no one can get in or out of cities. Of course, this is unlikely to happen in isolation, but rather, part of a coordinated attack on a country (if China wanted to). Even a 2-car or a truck crash on a Sydney motorway is enough to bring traffic to a halt for hours. Amplify that thousands of times.It's scenarios like that I'm fearful of. Australia made the right decision to ban Huawei gear from critical infrastructure. But what about countries where the power grid, telecommunications networks, etc... are made up of this equipment? This isn't the stuff of science fiction either, the threat is very real, and personally, I think it's looming.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 05:00:27 am
content: This is somewhat old news. Sometimes it is easier to have wireless modules assembled and not actually used. Cell modems are less of a risk , since they would need to have SIM cards and register with the local network.If you really want to be stealthy, it is super easy. You can hide FM receiver in a way that would be really hard to tell. And if all you need is a kill switch, then a simple FM receiver will do.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 06:43:41 am
content: I can't even start to explain how stupid that article is.Some spy agency finally found out that industry is forcing the stupid IoT down our throat for last 20 years. Quick response.EVERY stupid device has Bluetooth, Wifi or LoRaWan.So now Chinese devices are "spying on us". EU made ones have IoT.It is just warmongering propaganda.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 07:27:23 am
content: That article is over a month old.Unfortunately, no details have been publshed, anywhere.I can only assume it's a "build one model, software enable features as purchased by the customer" thing; which might be "no issue" or "extremely risky" - just can't decide without more infos.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 01:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 19, 2025, 06:43:41 amNo, it really isn't. Unfortunately the media have access to about 5% of the information. This isn't about "China bashing" it's reality, regardless of which country is attached to it. Even junior cybersecurity analysts are discovering similar kinds of vulnerabilities.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 01:47:51 pm
content: QuoteIf you take that theory to the limit then theirs millions of ied's sitting around.

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 02:12:33 pm
content: When I purchased my new 2025 Toyota, the dealership insisted that I install two apps on my phone, which I promptly disabled as soon as I left the dealership.However, every day as I pull away from home, the dashboard indicates that the internet connection has been lost. It only happens at home. How so? I didn’t provide my WiFi’s password. And before anyone asks: no, my password is not admin1. Unless my wife paired it, highly doubtful, I ignore what happened.I am out of town to take a dashboard image.But the greater question looms: what happens if the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor again?Ok, the last sentence is a lame attempt at humor.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 02:03:00 am
content: Quote from: UnijunctionTransistor on June 19, 2025, 02:12:33 pmThere's a simple way to check: When your car is at home and turned on, login to your router's admin page, there should be an option in there to list connected devices, see if your car is one of them.Someone who understand iOS and Android SDKs may be able to answer this better than I can, but I don't believe there is any mechanism for an application to discover your WiFi password through a simple permission request, I believe you would have to manually type it in before it would pass it over to the device it controls.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 02:12:44 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 19, 2025, 01:37:16 pmLinks on the "hard" proof or the findings of those junior cybersecurity analysts ? You have it right ?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 03:08:39 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on June 20, 2025, 02:12:44 amYou're kidding aren't you? Are you seriously suggesting that serious vulnerabilities in Chinese products is a concept that is new to you? I guess the advice from someone who literally works in the industry is no longer good enough. Either you're living under a rock, or you seem to have some kind of biased loyalty to Chinese products.Yes of course, vulnerabilities exist in non-Chinese products too, however it is well established that China (among other countries) are one of the most serious threats to the world's cybersecurity, whether it be through supply chain attacks, or otherwise. That threat is being driven by the current Chinese government, and some of these attacks have beendirectlyattributed to the CCP (for example "Volt Typhoon").Perhaps start with someone like Matt Brown, he is a pretty prominent Youtuber and security researcher. There are also countless articles and research into the vulnerabilities and security issues surrounding Chinese vehicles. If you wilfully choose to close your eyes and block your ears, and pretend everything is peachy, then we can't help you.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 03:14:33 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 19, 2025, 06:43:41 amAgreed.I'm sure everyone would be shocked to find out just how much of this kind of spying the "good" (i.e., Western) gov'ts do on their citizens.Oooooh, but eeevil Chiner ...

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 03:37:56 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 20, 2025, 03:08:39 amYet ... not even single link nor proof to back your argument, geez ... how hard is that ?Are you saying that we should hide the proofs, instead of exposing it to the world ?As a moderator of this electronic forum, I like to remind you again that people here are used to and certainly will not be intimidated by looking into bits and pieces of electronics hardware, especially teardowns at "SUCH ISSUE".

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 03:53:40 am
content: Adding wireless devices to equipment that traditionally didn't require it is just a sign of the times - whether it be for use with accessories for the customer/user to monitor the equipment without having to plug a laptop in, or even the manufacturer pushing updates or monitoring remotely as a service. Yes, spying is one of those reasons, but its far down the list.I think a distiction should be made between "vunerability" - which will include almost all ESP32/ESP8266, and to a lesser extent cheap bluetooth SOC - and "intentional spying", or other deliberate (by design) back door functionality.It seems no only journalists, but also engineers confuse the two, letting their own biases/prejudices, and perhaps even experience decide how they view these problems. Mass produced IoT stuff will have vunerabilites, its why DDoS attacks are becoming increasingly worrying, and we all know that when it started IoT device manufacturers didn't really have security in mind (The "S" in IoT stands for "security").No doubt those vunerabilities can be exploited by bad actors, or even states - including China. But that isn't the same as "Country is intentionally designing devices to be used to disrupt a country's infrastructure". You can clearly see the ones who are so thirsty for clickbaity articles when they don't even bother reading the article, and jump the gun. How many fell for the panic over ethernet transformers?And any large company or hell, even Government, who purchases/procures devices or equipment for critical infrastructure, anddoesn'thave these fully tested and checked by their own team probably shouldn't be using such equipment.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 06:03:58 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on June 20, 2025, 03:37:56 amIliterallypointed you in the direction of some sources you can look up. *taps mic* is this thing even on? Are you asking me to do your homework for you?There are some proofs we should (and do) hide and for very good reason. The Police don't just open up their intelligence for everyone to read, why should cybersecurity be any different? There are reasons those kinds of government agencies exist at the 'Top Secret' level and yes, they do engage heavily with the private sector. I know, because I have literally been in the room with them on many occasions. Only just yesterday I also met with two people from Crowdstrike and one from Palo Alto Unit 42. As I said, I'm heavily engaged in this industry and have been for quite some time. I'm not just a hobbyist playing guessing games, it's literally my daytime job.I do absolutely agree that we should share certain material with the world (and I think Australia does a pretty good job of that), but not everything.I'm not going to engage into a pissing contest with anyone aboutifChina is engaged in this sort of activity, because it well and truly absolutely is. How far does it go? Well, that's what we are all trying to figure out. We've been focussed on China's activities for quite some years and I'd say in the last 5 or so, it's really starting to heat up. As I said, if you aren't seeing this, then I don't know where you've been living.Now, let's get back onto the topic about what vulnerabilities and exploits have been found in this kind of equipment. I personally haven't dealt much with inverters and power equipment. It's definitely interesting, even if it's not surprising.Quote from: Buriedcode on June 20, 2025, 03:53:40 amI agree with on both of these points. However China is a bit of a different beast: It's not only a dictatorship and it's literally written into their law that companies must comply with the Government's request, even if that request is "We want you to modify your product/service to enable us to spy on x,y and z". China also has huge manufacturing capabilities, and this is where a lot of the electronics and components are coming from. Silk Typhoon (again, directly linked to the CCP) is specifically focussing on supply chain attacks.On your second point, yes, in a perfect world this would happen, but not all governments have the capability or the funds to do extensive research and testing. In Australia, the ban on Huawei cellular infrastructure was based on research and findings by several government agencies, but not every country is able to do that.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 08:02:11 am
content: Quote from: UnijunctionTransistor on June 19, 2025, 02:12:33 pmModern cars come with this crap (Internet access) pre-installed and there is no way to disable it.Here is an article about the 3G shutdown and the problems it will cause - to your car.https://www.carpro.com/blog/the-end-of-3g-and-what-it-means-for-your-vehicleOf course, newer cars will have 4G/5G modems installed. Again, you can't do anything against it.I only noticed with my Opel, when one day I did park it, all parking aids failed, it started beeping like crazy, the warning symbols did the christmas tree thing; and before exiting the car, the display told me about a software update happening. That was scary, didn't know system software updates were done OTA.So there is not only Emergency call, but also full lowlevel system access built into cars. What could possibly go wrong with that...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 08:43:20 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on June 20, 2025, 08:02:11 amI wonder how it determined you were parked, rather than stalled while doing an emergency stop or temporarily stopped at the side of the motorway to, say, secure something in the boot or adjust a child's car seat/seat belt etc.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:14:56 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 20, 2025, 08:43:20 amIt doesn't. My car sometimes puts the parking sensors on in traffic. The conditions seem to be driving at a low or zero speed and having 'something' trigger one of the sensors, like a pedestrian or the car in front of you. Or going into reverse always puts them on.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:36:18 am
content: Undocumented commands found in Bluetooth chip used by a billion deviceshttps://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/undocumented-commands-found-in-bluetooth-chip-used-by-a-billion-devices/

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:40:51 am
content: Backdoor found in two healthcare patient monitors, linked to IP in Chinahttps://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/backdoor-found-in-two-healthcare-patient-monitors-linked-to-ip-in-china/

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:41:20 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 20, 2025, 10:14:56 amThat statement in and of itself is crazy and scary... As a person who writes software for a living, its edge cases like these that scare the crap out of me... now add on a layer of external control (like the OTA.. nothing malign for now..) to these absolute non deterministic or intrinsically safe systems.. and that is a disaster waiting to happen... its a question of when... not if..

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:41:48 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 20, 2025, 10:14:56 am"Sorry, can't move on from traffic lights until software update complete". They couldn't bethatstupid, could they.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:41:52 am
content: Hacking Subaru: Tracking and Controlling Cars via the STARLINK Admin Panelhttps://samcurry.net/hacking-subaru

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:44:58 am
content: We hacked a robot vacuum — and could watch live through its cameraThe largest home robotics company in the world has failed to fix security issues with its robot vacuums despite being warned about them last year.Without even entering the building, we were able to silently take photos of the (consenting) owner of a device made by Chinese giant Ecovacs.And then things got even creepier.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-04/robot-vacuum-hacked-photos-camera-audio/104414020

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:46:32 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 20, 2025, 10:41:48 amAfter seeing warning labels on bleach and the likes say "Do not ingest / drink this", I'm convinced that both producers and consumers can be (and in fact) are many times that stupid!!

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:46:42 am
content: Hacking Kia: Remotely Controlling Cars With Just a License Platehttps://samcurry.net/hacking-kia

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:54:41 am
content: Quote from: Karel on June 20, 2025, 10:44:58 amUsing Bluetooth at a distance of 140m?I don’t think so.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 11:37:21 am
content: Quote from: Karel on June 20, 2025, 10:46:42 amGreat.I wonder if there are any cars at all manufactured today that can be purchased, owned and operated without any internet connection whatsoever, that don't have any non-optional built-in modems or other means of communication with the internet.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 11:52:18 am
content: Quote from: shapirus on June 20, 2025, 11:37:21 amEven if there are, it might be effectively impossible to drive them. Insurance clauses tend to require that software updates are installed.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 11:55:59 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 20, 2025, 11:52:18 amInstalling software updates doesn't necessarily mean connecting to the internet.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 12:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on June 20, 2025, 11:55:59 amI canimagineseveral mechanisms, but since my car is 22yo, I know nothing of how modern cars actuallydoconnect to the mothership. it has a cassette drive(!) which I use for my mp3 player, and requires irregularly shaped bits of metal to start the engine.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 12:23:21 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 20, 2025, 11:52:18 amNot necessarily.. what if you have a car around the same time that did not rely on so much software and was analog... mostly.. :-DNo software updates when there is no software...

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 12:35:27 pm
content: Cassette tapes!I have kept a few just to show my grandkids the primitive devices the pre-internet men had to employ, just to be able to listen to some lo-fi music in your car.Now, if I only had kept some 8-track tapes….

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 12:38:35 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on June 20, 2025, 11:37:21 amFor cars with built in connectivity, usually instructions can be found online for defeating it like removing the antenna. Of course the car might object at some point.Quote from: Halcyon on June 20, 2025, 02:03:00 amSome consumer devices will log into an open WiFi access point if available, or have access through special accounts on various ISPs which provide WiFi with their router. I recall that some smart TVs were caught doing this.QuoteBeing able to recover the WiFi password would be an awfully large Android exploit. I sure hope this is not the case by design.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 01:00:29 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on June 20, 2025, 12:23:21 pmThat is implicit in the context, which you snipped.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 01:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: UnijunctionTransistor on June 20, 2025, 12:35:27 pmI ignored 8-track since you couldn't record on it; cassette was better in that respect.In general 8-track wasn't popular over here; I don't think I've ever seen a car (or anything else) with one.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 01:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: UnijunctionTransistor on June 20, 2025, 12:35:27 pmDon't forget, a lot of software was distributed this way as well!

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 09:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 20, 2025, 12:38:35 pmYou may be into something. I have a 5G modem/wireless router provided by T-Mobile, which is my internet provider. They may have some channels reserved for situations like these one.Is Big Brother watching me?

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 09:28:11 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 20, 2025, 01:40:43 pmRegardless of the application, a #2 pencil was an essential tool whenever using cassette tapes.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2025, 10:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: UnijunctionTransistor on June 20, 2025, 09:28:11 pmHell, I still have my cassette tape splicing kit (Radio Shack)! Even used it not long ago.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 03:56:25 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 20, 2025, 11:52:18 amDo they? This seems to be something that is slowly creeping in perhaps? Looking over my current car insurance, there is absolutely no mention of updates of any kind and I don't recall ever reading a policy here that would require it. I can see the argument for cars that have full-self driving capabilities, but I suspect they would be dealt with under a completely different policy, compared to "regular vehicles" (even those with semi-autonomous driving capabilities).

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 04:00:26 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 20, 2025, 12:38:35 pmI very much doubt this is the case. Even for well known brands like Dyson, Sonos and iRobot, I've had to manually enter my WiFi password in their applications. If there was a way to automate it, I'm sure they would have.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 04:34:11 am
content: Why you whiny people never complain about Chinese "advance" communicating device like your computer, laptop or cell-phone ?Heck, its even publicly well known, that Donald J. Trump loves hisMADE IN CHINAApple Iphone !!Surely the evil China's CCP will stream all the video and voice from his phone and listening to US President's plan on Iraq war.So why bother and making the noise on such non sense at the solar power inverters ? Especially with current IoT era, that possibly every PCBs probably are populated with wireless chips or section.What if one day in Dave's tear down video of a new oscilloscope, that publicly known does not have wireless feature (e.g.:Wifi, bluetooth etc), but spotted in the PCB section that shows it has wireless feature, either populated or not with the chips ?Will you shout out loud ... "this evil oscilloscope had the CCP's hidden roque circuit that will transmit your signal probing back to China !!! "Yes, you sound so stupid, especially in this electronics forum. You should probably better join in knitting discussion forum.Bottom line is, if you really do not trust everything made in China, stop being whiny bit*** and DO NOT buy those CCP evil thingy, how hard is that ?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 05:20:56 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on June 21, 2025, 04:34:11 amI don't. I avoid them where possible and operate them in isolation if I can't. But, you will pay a premium. Consumers do have a choice, it just depends on what's more important to them.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 06:48:14 am
content: My approach to rogue communication is to teach myself rudimentary signals intelligence and learn how to identify and sniff out such comms.But most consumers aren't interested in how & why things work, they just want to use the thing.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 07:08:11 am
content: Just FYI, there are possibilities, your made in China smart-phone, laptop, computer that you're now using, while you browse this forum which is using a server that is also made in China, and both are secretly communicating and spying on you.All your personal life like your porn collection, your browsing adult sites habit or worst your nasty personal stuffs, are now in the China CCP's hand.Better get prepared, DO NOT access this forum anymore, or even better, stop using internet, the CCP is watching you.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 07:28:38 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 21, 2025, 03:56:25 amWhen design compliance includes that, as in Europe:UNECE R155 (Cybersecurity) and R156 (Software Updates)should the end user modify the vehicle to no longer meet those obligations then in theory it becomes unroadworthy. Automotive insurance has traditionally only looked at contributing factors, but if checking firmware versions is cheap/easy and a way for them to avoid liabilities you can be sure it will start happening.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 07:33:22 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on June 21, 2025, 04:34:11 amgetting sillier now with a trump branded "MADE IN AMERICA*" phone:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-06-17/trump-unveils-cheap-gold-smartphone-mobile-service/105426652*at some point in the future possibly, maybe, perhaps

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 07:35:45 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 21, 2025, 07:33:22 amWonder what the "whiny crowds" will whine about this ? That Trump is a CCP agent ?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 08:31:21 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on June 21, 2025, 07:08:11 amNo need to be sarcastic. Be sensible instead. No one is suggesting (or has ever suggested) thatallproducts made or assembled in China are insecure out of the box. This is not what is being discussed in this thread. Apple iPhones and mainstream Android products like the Google Pixel are among the most secure devices in the world.We're talking about Chinese tech and the stuff that is compromised when they've been caught with their pants down. Childish comments and your abundant use of emjois isn't making the point you think it is.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 08:45:26 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 21, 2025, 08:31:21 amAre you sure about that? Really?Now, I have no evidence to the contrary, but does anyone really know what's inside those devices? (Besides their designers, of course.)It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that all kinds of spyware was incorporated into these things. And I'm not talking about the Chinese, either ...phone::tracking device

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 08:54:31 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on June 21, 2025, 08:45:26 amI have a reasonably good understanding of what can be tracked, by who and under what circumstances. I literally worked in a unit that undertakes telecommunications intercepts, among other things. Prior to that employment, I worked for a telco which had its own "dark room" for these purposes and had first-hand knowledge of what was being intercepted. This whole notion of "Western countries are spying on everyone" is bullshit. If you're not a target, law enforcement or governments aren't interested in you. Your data is only being stored within the companies you voluntarily supply data to (Facebook, X, etc...). Sure, that data is retained for some time, but don't be a criminal and don't be a terrorist. It's really that simple when it comes to everyday citizens. If you wilfully choose to be either of those things, well, fuck you. Don't expect sympathy.That being said, those companies aren't seeking to disrupt or maliciously control critical infrastructure in other nations. The same cannot be said for other entities, which is why these threats are real. They have demonstrated this time and time again. These state-sponsored actors are literally being tracked, and monitored by the cybersecurity industry. We know the crap they are up to, it's everyone's responsibility to protect ourselves as best we can from those threats.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 09:15:26 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 21, 2025, 03:56:25 amIt is something I noticed when I read the renewal notice for my current car insurance policy. I've put it to the back of my mind, since it cannot apply to my car and would only become relevant if I bought a new car.Quote from:https://www.nfumutual.co.uk/globalassets/insurance/motor/car-insurance-reference-booklet.pdfYes, there is ambiguity in those statements, especially for ADAS and <cough> fully-self driving </cough> cars. Which way will an insurance claims company "play" the ambiguity? In your favour, or in their favour?NFU Mutual is generally thought to be an excellent insurance company, e.g. it is a consumers association (i.e. Which?) best buy.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 09:20:23 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 21, 2025, 07:28:38 amThat's my presumption.When I was rear-ended while stationary in a queue of traffic, the first thing the other driver's insurance assessor did was check the tread on my tyres. Only after seeing the tyres were legal did he start to look at the damage. Guess why he did it in that order.N.B. since it was theotherdriver's insurance, there is no way i could protect myself against it

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 09:26:39 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 21, 2025, 09:20:23 amDon't bother: the other driver's insurance assessor is playing a dirty game and whatever the tread on you tires, you can't possibly be held accountable.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 09:46:51 am
content: Quote from: Sorama on June 21, 2025, 09:26:39 amOf course, but you miss the point. They were looking for a way to refuse to pay for the damage to my car on the grounds that it would have been unroadworthy. Clauses about keeping software updated are another mechanism for that.With that in mind, what would happen if there was an accident where I was held wholly or partially responsible?

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 10:02:14 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 21, 2025, 08:54:31 amBut you can easily become a target when an automatic scanner (AI-powered or otherwise) identifies something in your activities, including those local to your phone or other device, as actionable.p.s. and it doesn't seem impossible to imagine how the absence of a recent scan result may mark a person in the database as suspicious and a target for a deeper inspection. You don't use social networks? You don't use smartphones? You block spyware? Access internet via a VPN? You surely must be hiding something, then. Sounds like something from the conspirology department, right? Today, yes, it does. I'm not at all sure it'll still be purely conspirological in 10 or 15 years.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 10:12:52 am
content: Quote from: shapirus on June 21, 2025, 10:02:14 amI don't mind too much aboutcorrectinformation about me being stored in databases.If anybody thinks that databases don't contain incorrect information, then perhaps I could sell them this bridge....

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 10:46:06 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 21, 2025, 10:12:52 amTherein lies the danger.If 95% people don't mind that (as well as external control over their devices) and consider it normal, but 5% don't want their data stored in any databases beyond the necessary minimum and their devices accessed by someone else (which is absolutely their right), then these 5% are in trouble. They will be (and are already) considered out of norm and eventually deemed marginals and their normal lives will become threatened by either the government (in totalitarian countries) or corporations or both (in so-called western democracies).Gradual erosion of privacy, rights to own and things like that is a fact, it's happening right now. Since it's gradual, there is no sharp transition point, and it's hard to notice exact moment which things become downright ugly, and when people finally realize that, it's already too late.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 11:19:13 am
content: Quote from: shapirus on June 21, 2025, 10:46:06 amAll valid points.I put a little effort into "misleading" databases wherever possible: incorrect date of birth, junk email addresses and/or unique-to-website email addresses (thank you gurgle: x@gmail.com == x+website@gmail.com), incorrect phone numbers, that sort of thing.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 12:04:14 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on June 21, 2025, 10:46:06 amAs you mentioned companies run the show, laws and privacy/rights are ignored and laws to protect individuals are mostly nice words with no effort to actually protect individuals.Australian example in the spirit of this thread:https://rants.vastheman.com/2018/01/20/tpg/TLDR: buying internet access from one of the largest retailers, they wont let you use your own modem, and the modem they supply has known backdoors and exploitsRegulators just shrug their shoulders and look the other way.

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 12:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 21, 2025, 09:46:51 amI’m not missing the point; this is exactly what I am saying.The law, at least where I live, says that even your car was not road worthy, it would NOT touch your rights if you’re in an accident when there is no relation between the status of your car and the fact you got hit from behind.You can drive without registration, or with a not worthy car, but still you won’t be held liable nor will you loose any rights when hit.But you will get a fine from police because your car was not registered or had a major flaw like driving without bumpers, ….In your case you will be paid by the insurance of the one that hit you for your losses.(Actually you will be paid by your insurance who will be invoicing the counter party to recover your losses)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 12:29:59 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on June 21, 2025, 10:02:14 amI appreciate where you are going with this, but in reality, that's not how it works, at least not within Australia (which is where my legal training is).We have had cases where service providers have identified certain illegal material (generally related to children) and have notified police. Police in turn have investigated, identified the material in question then taken certain action against the individual. In my opinion that is perfectly acceptable.Currently, people aren't brought under notice until its actually investigated and there is enough evidence to take action. Police and security agencies don't have the time or resources to sit there and sift through false positives. I don't see that changing any time in the foreseeable future.Even if it's merely "intelligence" there are values that are assigned to that intelligence based on where it came from, how credible it is, has it been verified etc... That stuff is taken seriously.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2025, 12:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 21, 2025, 12:29:59 pmAgreed.Currently.And if the administration changes to one which is actively malevolent? Well, we know. After the 1930s across Europe, then late 40s - mid 50s in the US.We are currently seeing what happens when databases aren't card indexes and you don't have to undo red tape to see the paperwork