I got myself a Juki RS-1R - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 09:16:04 am
content: Hey Folks,I've finally moved myself out of the "Chinese PnP Ecco-system" after too many years of pain and frustration, and I now have a new Juki RS-1R on my line instead.It was a massive decision, but now that's it's done and the machine is building my boards, I'm so glad I decided to do this for my mental health and well being (so is my Wife) - though the financial pain will take a lot longer to recover fromI bought the machine from Suba Engineering here in Australia (the Juki distributors) and wow, what an amazing bunch of people. It was a super positive experience, and I can't recommend them enough if you are in Aus/NZ and looking for any production gear!I posted a delivery/commissioning video on my YT channel last week, and today I posted a first panel assembly video of one of my products.I'm happy to answer any questions folks have about the machine - apart from the "how much was it" one, as that really doesn't matterCheersSeonUnexpected Makerhttps://www.youtube.com/unexpectedmaker

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 10:36:03 am
content: Would be interesting to see the software/ setup process etc., as well as some close-up details of the machine - how the heads & feeders work etc.Plus of course any internal pics!

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 10:55:08 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 22, 2023, 10:36:03 amNps, I do a 'close up look" video next and go over some of the cool features of the machine. I do show some closer shots in the delivery video while it was being commissioned, but there's lots more I've learned about it since thenCheers,SeonUnexpected Maker

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 03:32:19 pm
content: I wonder how much did it cost. Probably more expensive than my car

author: JURP
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 03:49:21 pm
content: Just hint at the price of the new toy, 10, 20 times the price of the K1830? And we can shed a tear again.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 04:03:03 pm
content: Go back ~10years and the closest Yamaha equivalent was probably the "iPulse" M20, the 4 head version of that had a list price of ~£90KGBP, the dumbest Yamaha "F1" pneumatic feeders were about £400 each and a package would then get discounted by around 20%. The resultant number was smaller than the quote price for a teeny Juki that could fit fewer feeders (80) and was otherwise less capable. I think smart electronic feeders from both these options were about 3x the price of pneumatic. Play with some inflation & currency changes, maybe some extra discount because Seon is closer to the source and you might get close to the price. I would have thought $250k USD with a healthy feeder package.... but I only have recent SM Placement quotes from one completely different supplier.However equipment purchasing is weird, you might find these people almost giving away one of these machines (on a 2fer) to compete with a giant machine from universal/europlacer and with almost all of them a proper quote when you are getting right down to it can include significant discounts, and we're not allowed to tell you those. Sometimes this excess price is built in for unknown reasons and in others, some manufacturers bulk produce a certain spec of a certain model which cost much less than fully bespoke ones. ITW does this with ovens and printers and I think Rehm did it too, suddenly your 80K thing is half price.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 06:09:52 pm
content: How far are the feeder banks apart?

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 07:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on June 22, 2023, 04:03:03 pmIs it really that expensive new? My mind can not fathom those figures, more than a house. Used equipment seems the way to go but can be a little difficult to start but saving $245k is better in my book. My bigger issue is than in last 15-20 years there have been very little improvements to the machines whether it be speed, reliability, size, price. Otherwise used equipment is the way to go. I have seen newer machines give more problems than the older stuff. Older machines are more suitable for small businesses whereas newer machines are designed for huge corporations with entire departments dedicated to SMT.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 07:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on June 22, 2023, 07:18:09 pmUsed stuff is much more risky because there is no warranty, no vendor support, unknown condition of machine (I would think not many people/companies would want to get rid of perfectly working machine of that class), and technologically outdated - if not obsolete. If you have a solid business plan on how to get an ROI from such investment, it might make sense to take a plunge.So, no thank you very much - deal with that old crap yourself

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 09:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on June 22, 2023, 07:30:52 pmThat's not completely true. You can buy good condition used machines and still have both manufacturer and distributor support. There's obviously a sunset on the manufacturer support at some point but for example Yamaha are still doing spare parts for machines <20 years old. You would be surprised how many companies upgrade their machines to achieve a speed increase or even because the owners just like shiny new things!

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 10:27:45 pm
content: The second hand market in Australia is pretty poor in terms of what's available and often the condition of the gear (for thw price asked), and importing from OS is quite expensive, especially these days, and you just don't now what you are going to get.I have a business to run, so I need a tool, not a project, and everyone I know that's bought second hand assembly gear has had a "project" on their hands in some form or another.Kudos to the folks that do it.. big respect from me, but it's not something I'm interested in doing.I wanted a modern machine with modern features, and it had to have local support and a proper warranty. Oh, and solid training, which Suba excel at... I was up and running and assembling my first production boards on day 3 from delivery. In fact, I ran my first pasted panel the afternoon of the second day from delivery.So everyone has different requirements - for me, this was the price I had to pay to get all of the things I wanted for now and for my future needs.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: seon on June 22, 2023, 10:27:45 pmIf you can justify the cost, absolutely! And yes, there's definitely a degree of patience required in order to source quality secondhand machines here in Australia - that's why I started out with my Kayo placer to bootstrap the process. I had simply wanted to correct Asmi's blanket statement.In any case, the Juki is a very nice machine! What made you settle on that vs the other new options?

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:54:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on June 22, 2023, 11:20:02 pmWhen I started looking a while back, I found there weren't many options in this price bracket for what I was after - And I settled on either the Hanwha SM482+ (what I almost got) and the RS-1R - The Juki was quite a lot more expensive, so I had all but ruled it out and was about to order the SM482+ - but Suba gave me a deal I couldn't walk away from... It was still more than the Hanwha, but I feel it's a better machine for my needs and well, the RS-1R was always my "dream machine".I found the Yamaha and Samsung range really confusing and I couldn't easily get pricing or a clear idea on delivery timeframes. Machinery Forum were really good to deal with on he Hanwha side, but as I said, I felt the Juki was the better option for me. Only time will tell if I made the right decision.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 03:37:09 am
content: Seon, how far are the feeder banks apart in that machine?Can you adjust the spacing?

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 04:30:53 am
content: Quote from: MR on June 23, 2023, 03:37:09 amYou can't adjust the spacing, no. In terms of how far apart, I *think* it's approximately 17mm from centre to centre.The 8mm feeder spacing is designed to match the spacing for the 8x nozzles, so it can gang pick 8 parts at a time, and allows for a huge range of component sizes to be picked and placed using the laser curtain without requiring the camera and without interfering with parts on the next nozzle over.I was dubious at first about how it could pick and place my ESP32-S2/S3-Mini Modules without the camera, but it can and it can do it with other parts also picked next to it on the next nozzle over.12/16mm feeders only take 2x 8mm spots, unlike the CL feeders that take 3, so it's definitely more optimised for feeders.I've not opened my 20mm feeders yet, so not sure how may slots they take. The 44mm feeder takes 5 slots.Cheers,SeonUnexpected Maker

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 05:47:24 am
content: Hi Seon,I mean the spacing between the two feederbanks, this should influence the speed quite a bit as well.Feeder Bank - PCB - Feeder Bankyou got a really nice machine for sure and are out of the lower end segment with it, but the price was accordingly.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 06:42:07 am
content: Oh, sorry, I miss-understood. I honestly have no idea how far apart it is - I'll have to measure it when I'm at the machine next.Yes, I had to pay accordingly to get into this level machine - but that was always going to happen as there is nothing really between the top of the Chinese machines and this level machine, so this was the only way I was going to break out of that ecosystem.And that was something I really really had to doSeonUnexpected Maker

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 11:17:10 am
content: You have a solid setup Seon. Juki is a very good name and highly respected in the smtnet user forum. Be sure to visit that site if you have any questions.We have had the Yamaha line here under Philips brand. Excellent local support from the factory and reps. Our wish list is to seek a faster model. We are considering the newer Yamaha models (ysm10 or 20) and hope to review them at the Nepcon fair in Shenzhen in the fall. You may want to consider the same trade fairs in Shenzhen for Nepcon, HK electronic and Global sources fairs in the same time frame - October. Tons of new vendors to meet face to face.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 11:19:39 am
content: Wow, big move!Brand new from the local dealer, don't tell us the price, we don't want to know...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 11:22:23 am
content: Haven't watched the video yet, what is the control software like? Is it "next level" polished compared to the chinese ones?

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 11:36:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 23, 2023, 11:22:23 amYeah, it’s worlds apart. Feature rich, mostly intuitive (I have to unlearn some things before I can relearn) and the documentation is insanely detailed. Too detailed in fact. 5+ different manuals.It has some quirks too. All software does. But I was able to understand it well enough to be manufacturing by day 3.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 11:55:43 am
content: Probably less of an issue with a reliable machine, but the vid showing it stopping with an issue you had with a feeder got me wondering if can you set the software to deal with feeder errors / parts running out by carrying on and placing everything it can, and only alarming at the end so you can sort everthing in one go ?My 20+ year old machine does this by default, and in most cases is the most sensible approach ( except in the rare cases where you need a specific placement order due to heights etc.), but Chinese makers don't seem to understand why this would make sense.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 08:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 23, 2023, 11:55:43 amYes, it does that by default, but I have it currently set to pause like it did in the video for now so I can try to find issues as they happen. I basically have the machine running in noob mode while I’m learning and getting more comfortable with it.There is so much more going on with this machine than anything I’ve previously used, so I’m taking it slow. So long as I’m manufacturing I’m ok with the baby stepsSeonUnexpected Maker

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 12:47:05 am
content: Quote from: seon on June 23, 2023, 08:28:42 pmThat's one thing I hate about most newer machines, the added complexities. If I am spending 6 figures I want everything super fast, super easy, super simple. It needs to be intuitive and customized for my operation. Newer machines are generally designed for huge operations with 1000 of features not single operator production. I would go nuts if it took me 3 days training to get a board out. It should be super fast to load a program, load components and run production.Quote from: mon2 on June 23, 2023, 11:17:10 amYamaha has a promotion for YSM10 for $119k with 50 feeders included, 2 years support, etc - one of my friends bought this a couple months back. I think Yamaha's cph figures might be the most exaggerated and they only worked with 15mm tall components. I can't believe how much older YG100/MG1hold their value better than a toyota camry. 20 years later still worth $25k with over 150k hours on the odometer, most expensive used machines I've seen.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 04:19:25 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on June 24, 2023, 12:47:05 amThat's totally not what I said.. 3 days to get a production run going from 3 palettes of stuff sitting on a truck, not 3 days of trainingMachines don't take 5 mins to unpack and setup.How can a new machine be delivered to you customised to your operation, right out of the box? That makes no sense. How can any machine be delivered like that?I never said the machine operation was too complex or difficult - I said, I have a lot to unlearn and re-learn, coming from 4 Chinese machines with limited to non-existent functionality and no reliability, to a machine that allows me to go super deep in per component picking, identification, manipulation and placement - if I want/need - or have it just to it all for me if I want.For instance - The USB-C connectors - I could have just pushed them down into the board more - that's the only way to do it on my previous machines.... but that's not the right way on the Juki - though it is "a way"On the Juki I can set the "boss height" of the component - the height of the peg legs and any pins lower than the 0 position of the part where it touches the PCB. Then the laser curtain knows to ignore that when it's measuring the height, and it allows me to treat the connector as if it has no peg legs. then I can place it exactly at the board height without pushing it down roughly to get the pegs in.One way takes no learning or effort, but is bad for the flex of the PCB and means I can't run the part too fast - the other takes time to learn and understand, and setup, but allows me to run that part at full speed and not have to worry about it bouncing off or flexing the PCB.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 04:25:50 am
content: Quote from: seon on June 23, 2023, 11:36:44 amWow, niceYou get what you pay for I guess.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 12:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: seon on June 24, 2023, 04:19:25 amMy apologies, you are correct, we usually lose a day in unpacking, putting together, leveling a machine depending on size and weight. Being a brand new machine is even more cumbersome. I am sure there is alot to unlearn coming from chinese machines and I bet Juki software is intuitive. You also made a very wise decision to buy into a platform where you have local support even though it cost an arm and a leg. Australia's SMT market is much different than North America. Over here we have much larger aftermarket support available so used machines are much more viable. The entire SMT market in North America is probably 100+ times Australia.My issue was less with your experience and more with mine. My attitude to buying business equipment is that it should make my life much easier not harder. I have seen most softwares overcomplicate the whole process. I sat through a presentation from ASM (DEK/siplace) that was being pitched really hard to me. I prefer to program cad data directly on the machine without having to buy any software and that was not possible. They required a separate server to program CAD data with an extensive list of expensive components in order to program a board. I have also seen this with other manufacturers trying to force you into their expensive software platforms and drive cost an extra $100k+ more by upselling these software packages that are really good for super large departments. Weeks of expensive training are required just to learn a particular ecosystem. Reminds me of ERP software to control the business but the software is such that one update obsoletes perfectly good condition equipment. Now for a large CMS this makes financial sense as they lose much more money in lost time for 100 employees but for a small 1-5 person CMS/OEM it doesn't.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 10:50:04 pm
content: Ahh, ok, that makes more sense - yeah, I agree that the big boys are all about pushing their entire Ecco-system and tools to control everything - at massive additional $ investments.Interestingly, Juki also used to be like that with their last "server software" but now offer it in a new form called JANets - where it's modular and you only need to buy what you need, or don't buy it at all. The RS-1R actually has everything on the machine you need to import pos files and setup projects, but I actually bought the basic JANets software for the purpose of being able to setup projects offline, and to get a server side component database, so I only ever have to setup a component once and all projects can leverage that.It allowed me to get 10-12 projects setup in days, even before my machine arrived, and trust that I had not messed up any components, and now I'm setting up my remaining projects and new ones offline at my desk, rather than having to power up the RS to do it. Of course, I can make changes on the machine and that's translated back to the database, and all of the actual production files live on the server (my choice) so they get backed up and versioned.It's a pretty cool system, but alas, it runs on Windows and I'd rather it didn'tI bought a small Risen 7 Mini PC that runs it all, and it sits in my network rack and I can access it remotely to work on it - even from home.I obviously have nothing to compare any of this to, other than the Neoden and CHMT products, and they were so lack luster and prohibitive compared to what I have now, I wonder sometimes how I even managed to get stuff doneSeonUnexpected Maker

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 11:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: seon on June 24, 2023, 10:50:04 pmLooking forward to the day everything goes cloud based software that is system agnostic and self updating, no server to manage and files stored in cloud. Great to hear Juki backed off controlling its customers. Hopefully other manufacturers follow suit. The whole attitude really says alot about how these companies view their customers. Reminds me how BMW is trying to make heated seats a monthly subscription option.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 04:34:50 pm
content: Wow! Very impressive. In 2020, I bought a Quad QSA30A from an auction for the opening bid. It needed a lot of work, and I was pretty close to throwing in the towel a few times. It only has 3 nozzles, but has flying vision with line-scan cameras that look at the shadow cast across the part. It has 3 servo motors for Z on each nozzle and 3 steppers to rotate each nozzle, so it can do the vision alignment while the head is in motion from the feeder rail to the board. Does your Juki have flying vision? I seem to see an up-looking camera in the middle, behind the conveyor, but the head doesn't seem to pause there for vision. During the intiial calibration, it seemed to use that camera to measure the nozzles, though. The nozzles look too close together for handling large parts. The biggest I use are 20mm FPGAs, so they are about 28mm across the diagonal. My nozzles are about 62mm apart, which is more than needed to prevent the parts bumping.My QSA30A is basically a Samsung CP30 with Quad electronic feeders and Quad Quadalign alignment cameras. I run mine at the default 60% speed setting and that seems fast enough for me. I can do a realistic 4000+ components/hour including nozzle change and conveyor time.Quite cool!Jon

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 06:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: seon on June 24, 2023, 04:19:25 amDoes it have gripper force control for oddform components? Very few machines have this capability.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 01:08:30 am
content: Does anyone here know more about the Cyberoptics modules?Did anyone control them directly?There are a few linear CCD arrays out there, eg. barcode scanners are using some of them, I wonder if cyberoptics also use a single pixel linear array or multi-row CCD sensor.The advantage I see with that is that it's possible to measure the height automatically.I only use staging cameras on my machines at the moment (and enter the component height manually into my database).

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 09:28:55 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on June 25, 2023, 04:34:50 pm28mm parts are no problem for the RS-1R - it's 17mm between nozzle tips, and if a part on nozzle 2 (for instance) is an 0402 resistor, then it can basically fit a 30-32mm part on nozzle 1. The machine is smart enough to optimise this quite nicely. I've yet to have to use the camera for anything to date.The RS-1R doesn't do usual "on the fly" like other machines do - Juki have a fully proprietary laser curtain system that measures things on the fly with lasers, no cameras/mirrors/shadows etc.it's insanely fast and incredibly accurate down to 0.001mm - It also uses the same laser system to accurately measure a parts height, again to 0.001mm.Cheers,SeonUnexpected Maker

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 09:39:13 am
content: Lasers still need some kind of CCD sensors on the other side to be recognized, just have a look at barcode scanners I somehow guess it's similar.eg.https://twcn.rs-online.com/web/p/image-sensor-ics/2616260Would be nice if someone who knows more about the Cyberoptics modules could write more about it.I think saw the Cyberoptics branding on your machine, so Juki just sources that knowledge from Cyberoptics I guess?I've implemented optical recognition (cameras only) into my PNP Software back then it's not so difficult, using such a single row CCD sensor shouldn't be a big deal eg. if you rotate a square part at some point a dark shadow area will become smaller - once it reaches the smallest shadow size the component should be aligned afterwards the CCD shadow area will become larger again.It would be interesting to know what they've implemented in HW and what in SW.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 10:23:45 am
content: Quote from: MR on June 26, 2023, 09:39:13 amNo, I believe they partnered with Cyberoptics to make their proprietary system - It's not off the shelf in any way from what I have been told.There's also no publicly available docs about it all either.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 01:23:11 pm
content: Quote from: MR on June 26, 2023, 01:08:30 amEssemtec used to use Cyberoptics laser centering, as did DDM Novastar, I think Fritsch still does, those probably are/were off the shelf solutions (to a point). I doubt you'd find much more about how they work without an NDA for a commerical project however. Same is probably true for Cognex, a popular choice on the vision side.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 03:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: MR on June 26, 2023, 01:08:30 amI think the Cyberoptics was used on the Samsung CP series of machines. My Quad QSA30A is built on the CP30 basic design, but with Quad electronic feeders and Quad's Quadalign cameras. I am pretty familiar with the Quadalign cameras. There is a diagnostic screen you can go into that will pull the image from the linescan CCD up so it looks like a digital scope trace, with vertical being shadow darkness and horizontal being position on the CCD. There is a TI DSP chip that runs each camera. The Quadalign uses some fancy aspheric optics to spread the laser beam out into a collimated line of parallel light, so the shadow that falls on the CCD array is the same size as the thing making the shadow.As for how it works, it doesn't seem that they measure Z, except to measure the Z-zero of the nozzles at startup. Then, you program in the best Z height to do the centering at, and whether it is centering the leads or the body. I guess the difference there is that it can get a spot of light through between the body and the gull-wing leads, so it knows to use the outermost dark edge. After pickup of the part, the nozzle is lifted to the specified Z for measurement, the part is rotated 45 degrees and then rotated back until the shadow is the narrowest. then that is the 0 degree alignment, and the centroid is calculated for centering, Then, the part is rotated 90 degrees and the other centroid is computed. I think at startup or after nozzle change it also examines the nozzle for runout and applies a correction.These line-scan CCDs are fairly simple, but use some odd voltages. They have a digital multiphase clock that clocks out the analog samples. Those would then be sent to an ADC.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 03:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: seon on June 26, 2023, 09:28:55 amWOW, very cool!Jon

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2023, 09:35:16 pm
content: I've posted a new video that shows more of the inside, and also shows an inner tray feeder mod I built, to free up the back static tray feeder position.https://youtu.be/3IIEMZh2IxQCheers,SeonUnexpected Maker

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 03:17:53 pm
content: Nice SMT line. Impressive cycle times on Juki. You are very courageous to be modding a brand new 6 figure machine. I have heard of heads crashing and being broken by things being left inside machine.How would you rate the other Neoden equipment? Oven, conveyors, board loader/unloaders? Any issues with them? The 12 zone oven has an interesting form factor. I have heard bad things about the IN6, I assume IN12 uses same heater elements?

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 01:23:11 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on July 08, 2023, 03:17:53 pmWell, it was suggested to me by Suba that it could be possible - I'd not have attempted it without guidance from them that previous Juki's were able to do it. But yes, always a risk adding stuff like this to a machine of this "value" - but that's why it's removableQuote from: Reckless on July 08, 2023, 03:17:53 pmNeoden don't make loaders/unloaders/conveyers/semi + auto stencil printers - they sell other 3rd party ones. they only make their one PnP machines and ovens (and a few manual stencil printer options).I have an original IN6 and had ongoing issues with it from day 1. It's still here on the side, as a redundancy, but I'd love to reclaim that space for a rework deskIt's only barely able to reflow lead free.The IN12C wasn't my first choice for a reflow oven - I'd like to have removed all Neoden equipment from my line, premises, life... but finding a chain based oven that is more than 5-6 zone that is less than 3m in length is quite the challenge. I'd have loved to get an Essemtec but could not find anything on the second hand market, and new are INSANELY over priced in Australia (more than $80k for a new - super old- Essemtec oven) - so I had no real choice to go with the IN12C or get an unnamed no support Chinese "something else". Better the devil you knowThe IN12C has been ok. I can handle 2-3 panels in it at a time with my designs, reflowing lead free, but none of my boards are heavy on big thermal parts.The IN12C is quite expensive compared to other Chinese ovens... but usability on them far exceeds other Chinese ovens.Cheers,SeonUnexpected Maker

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 06:31:55 am
content: Quote from: seon on July 09, 2023, 01:23:11 amI have sold BRAND NEW IN CRATE 14 zone Hellers and Essemtec ovens for less than the Neoden IN12. I haven't really seen chinese pnp equipment and very curious by them. I love hearing your experiences as it scares me the heck away from them. Nothing worse than buying shoddy SMT equipment. I almost bought a Neoden IN6 until I saw the poor reviews on here. I have an obsession with small ovens. When I started my 1st SMT line finding a quality small oven for lead free was a nightmare. In good conscience I couldn't get myself to pay $60k+ for a 15 ft oven. I do like splurging on a good pnp but not on feeders. I got used to cheap feeders after someone dropped a brand new $2500 universal dual lane gold feeder in front of me.Quote from: seon on July 09, 2023, 01:23:11 amMy JOT and IPTE board unloaders were pretty expensive, curious about your chinese ones. Can china make board loaders/unloaders? We don't see them here at all in US. Once one of my conveyors went down and I almost bought the neoden branded one for $500 but eventually made minor repair which fixed conveyor. The neoden unit didn't look industrial grade but was cheap. It had a very prosumer look to it.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 05:32:41 pm
content: Hey Seon,can you write something about component placement / verification?Are you loading the top paste layer into the Juki application to check if the parts will be rotated correctly?