Are new "GPS" devices being designed to track users even when officially "off"? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 08:54:30 pm
content: The same technology that allows ultra accurate RTK will also allow ultra low power tracking of users by allowing the snatching of GNSS satellite "GPS" data from their phones and processing it elsewhere. That uses so little power they wont notice batteries being drained because they wont be.This is kind of scary in its implications. Not only will they be uploading GPS data, once processed properly, it will be more accurate than what people are used to. Its quite possible that tracks of people walking around inside buildings showing exactly where they are at every second will become available.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:13:47 pm
content: If you are so paranoid, why are you carrying a connected GPS device? Disable GPS and/or data connectivity.You can be tracked by Wi-Fi networks and cell base stations anyway.BTW, battery drain in GPS comes from the receiver. You can't receive the GPS data without that receiver working and draining the battery. The processing part of the consumption is minuscule.But if you request location only once every few minutes, the battery drain will be pretty minimal anyway, even without new magical technologies.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:17:40 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 17, 2017, 09:13:47 pmI agree. Plus just a few spare tin foil hats could be used to cover your misbehaving devices.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:27:37 pm
content: Ublox, is releasing a GPS receiver that has about 1/3 the power draw as a traditional receiver but with an accuracy tradeoff in places like urban canyons. Reduced power consumption is a far cry from surreptitious monitoring and GPS receivers will still draw a fair chunk of power.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:29:55 pm
content: Turning off data connectivity doesn't turn off a phone GPS. It just turns off the subscriber's ability to use it.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on July 17, 2017, 09:29:55 pmAchieves the same result, does not it?And disabling GPS does disable GPS, unless you use some sketchy Chinese phone.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:22:10 pm
content: GPSs use less and less power even when running all the time and delivering position fixes once or many times a second.When you capture raw data from a GPS, you may be doing it to post process it. If thats the case you use less power. (the GPS is basically only acting as a high tech tape measure) Instead of capturing a stream of data you may just capture instants in time. That also makes the power consumption much lower. The main computing device (as opposed to the GPS chip) might do the processing only some of the time (when the user was the one requesting the information) The device might also log it and send it later, when it has connectivity, rather than send it immediately via its radio.Here is an example of another situation where post processing is necessary.. When you need to know where along the track you were at a specific instant you mark. Or maybe you are also capturing an audio recording.Sometimes people go into a country to do investigative work in human rights and they may need to log a location for later but not be visibly seen taking notes or using a GPS. (for example, while speaking with a witness) By using an RTK capable GPS, data logging and postprocessing its possible to continually record your location to disk or SD card and you could also insert markers into the log for later reference. If you were using a standard GPS you might be off by a substantial distance.. But with RTK you could get much more accuracy. The drawback is to do that you would also need short baseline correction signals, (less than 10 km) taken at the exact same time, from a base station with a known, fixed location, and the logged data. You would post process it. But you could also bring along a device to do that, as long as you had a safe location to leave it where it had an unimpeded sky view. (and a well charged battery)Newer phones are coming with RTK capable chips and will offer extremely high levels of accuracy. (at least under an open sky view) if there is correction data available from nearby. What I think we will see is base stations being set up wherever there are cellular installations.If people want to play with this technology now without having to buy two raw data capable GPSs, look into whether there is a local data network that allows public access. Chances are there is. In the US, many US states have their own networks and there is a national CORS network which ties them all together. Access is often free. There are also commercial networks run by pro grade GPS companies and others.You could use RTK for doing your own projects, for example, its likely possible to make a robotic lawnmower using RTK. Dead reckoning (estimating your location based on your activities since you last had a known good location fix) would also be useful whenever the returned data failed to pass a sanity test..Quote from: LabSpokane onTodayat 15:27:37

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on July 17, 2017, 09:29:55 pmThis is intriguing; do you have a reference?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 10:32:32 pm
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on July 17, 2017, 10:31:00 pmGPS does not rely on data. I use GPS all the time on the planes. Works perfectly.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 11:05:07 pm
content: But, you might be making anemergencycall!Ataradov, I kid you not. You are right, its a 100% certainty that that phone has a functional GPS which could be used by the customer, but they often disable it's use by them, if they don't have a data plan. However, as they may have other uses for that data, your phone is likely still GPS enabled, just not for you."So that your GPS works all the time your phone does"and doesn't require a cold start which can take 13 minutes or more cell phones now grab ephemeris "AGPS" data over the net. Once it has a valid ephemeris it might be valid for some time but I wouldn't count on just because a phone has a GPS - its also may be tied to a specific carrier's system.Most customers have no idea that (all?) GPS chips have the ability to download an ephemeris from a satellite.The carriers want to milk that phone for every penny it could possibly deliver them. They want people to spend extra for data plans.they dont want customers taking that phone to some competitor. So they may disable GPS use by the customer unless they pay for the data plan. Its their privilege. Even if the customer "owns" the phone they "own" the customer.Quote from: ataradov onTodayat 16:32:32>Quote from: SkyMaster onTodayat 16:31:00GPS does not rely on data. I use GPS all the time on the planes. Works perfectly.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 11:07:15 pm
content: So make a call, you don't need data for that. Again, if you are using rouge devices, then you are doomed no matter what.QuoteMost customers are productive member of the society, not paranoid preppers. This is good.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 12:53:06 am
content: What I meant is that when told they need a data plan to use any phone GPS, (which you accurately pointed out is ridiculous, BUT as you probably discovered, they do it anyway.Our naive and technically illiterate US customers will just cough up their hard earned money.Even if they paid for, and bought outright, a phone "with GPS" from the same company which doesnt really need a data plan to work.Because they didn't realize they were being robbed. Or have any real choices. And its only getting worse, quickly.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 01:14:27 am
content: Can you actually point out a phone where A-GPS is not an option you can disable?If you are paranoid, you should know such things exist and how to disable them. Otherwise, you are not paranoid enough.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 01:47:51 am
content: Quote from: cdev on July 18, 2017, 12:53:06 amMany people and salesdroids interchange GPS and navigation/downloading maps from the cloud. Typically when they say GPS they mean the whole google maps with pretty colors and everything.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 02:02:34 am
content: A smartphone is not a GPS mapping device with built-in map data. They must download maps from the internet.So no, there is no conspiracy to require data service to enable GPS; the location data is just not useful without a map and customers expect maps.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 02:03:19 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 18, 2017, 01:14:27 amany phone with the latest google appstore or google-play installed.it enables gps, grabs the data, then restores it to the previous state.never trust google - they are a miss-spelling of NSA - right down to the top staff.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 02:05:04 am
content: Quote from: stj on July 18, 2017, 02:03:19 amFirst of all, I was talking only about A-GPS. And then, do you have any proof? Or Google is just evil by default?

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 02:12:28 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 17, 2017, 10:32:32 pmI meant "reference" as in an article about this subject.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 02:19:17 am
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on July 18, 2017, 02:12:28 amDo you want a reference that GPS does not need data connection? This is pretty basic stuff, nobody will write articles about that. Just a Wikipedia article should be sufficient.Standalone GPS receivers existed even before there was a notion of data connection.If by GPS you mean "maps", then yes, they obviously need a connection at some point. But maps are not GPS.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 04:24:07 am
content: Now we have -ISDS, andindirect expropriation, being pushed by the US to protect the hot money of global capital, which basically means that all laws and changes (actually the technical term is measures" which is broader..)all "measures" taken by governments at all levels must -if they do anything, make international businesses more profitable, never less, or the taxpayers must pay them compensation. In perpetuity. These deals dont have expiration dates.Also, once privatized, you cant take anything back, without going through procedures like GATS Article XXI,as happened with Antigua and theUS-Gamblingcase.Quote from: evb149 onTodayat 19:17:51

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 05:04:13 am
content: It must be a rare distinction to produce an off-topic rant in a thread you started yourself. Not just once, but over and over!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 06:41:48 am
content: you can get rid of anybody in power who have sneak peek into gps data by:1) not doing the usual culturally bad things..2) not telling lies hence disturbing public interest..3) not telling the truth..anything in between, you are safe...

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 03:17:26 am
content: I decided to see whether the Google Maps app works without data service (this is a 4G/LTE phone). Airplane Mode and GPS were turned on. The Maps app opens and displayed cached map data perfectly well. After about 15 minutes, it acquired a position lock and tracked position more or less accurately within 5m resolution. As can be seen, A-GPS is not required. It would be interesting to run this test with Apple Maps, but I cannot.In practice this is quite thoroughly useless, since most people do not have the time to stand outside for 15 minutes holding their phone in the air, ensuring it doesn't go to sleep. When using a portion of the map that is not cached, all you see is your blue arrow correctly positioned over a blank gray grid. The phone has a magnetometer, so using GPS for compass directions is similarly useless.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 05:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: helius on July 24, 2017, 03:17:26 amIt will track the same exact way with and without A-GPS after the lock is acquired.15 minute number is strange, this must be a total cold boot. If you have GPS enabled recently, then the lock is acquired pretty much instantly for me.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 05:39:30 pm
content: depends on location,the guy may be indoors or in a city street with tall buildings.or out in a field someplace - he didnt say.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:03:00 pm
content: Sorry, I wrote that it was under open sky, but the forum logged me out and I lost the post.I normally have location services disabled, and cold boot the phone most of the time (shutting down is the easiest way to ensure it remains silent and does not disturb others near me). So there was no GPS data for a warm start.For me this is entirely theoretical, as I have unlimited data. The map data download is tiny and the almanac data is miniscule.Looking at the wiki article forA-GPS, there are some phones that have L1 radios but no tracking ability: I guess they are very old featurephones without many computrons. The article calls that regime Mobile Station Assisted [The "mobile station", in other words the phone, "assists" the cell site by uploading a recording of its received L1 signal].

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 11:49:56 pm
content: Many chips now provide and Google is making raw data available from Android smartphones to app developers so that means a great deal more data will become available to users, making it possible to measure everything from who did what with whom, where.. Its likely the recording of extremely minute movements will become the norm.You'll be able to get an extremely accurate picture of the phone's activities. Down to a few centimeters or even less.http://gpsworld.com/google-to-provide-raw-gnss-measurements/I could see a lot of different customers for this data.It will become very valuable to, for example, health and life insurance companies.With the would-be insureds consent of course.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 11:52:14 pm
content: Good. This adds tremendous value. And if you don't want it - simply don't use it. Why should we all suffer simply because you have paranoia?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 12:10:07 am
content: I think businesses are excited about the possibilities of location-based marketing. Knowing what products customers looked at in a store, or who they hang out with.Also, access control. Letting the right people in and keeping the wrong people out. Buildings wont need locks, cars wont need keys. Your cars will just come and open their doors when you step out of the restaurant.A big part of the appeal is devices just being ready for their owners when needed or called.When you go shopping, everything you touch will trigger a download of product information into your smartphone.Their goal is a cashless society where everybody is attached to many terabytes of data that lays out every possible bit of information about them that might be economically relevant.Obviously there will be no need to carry cash, ever..

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 12:58:35 am
content: Access control cannot depend on low-durability items with short battery life. It will continue to be RFID based for the foreseeable future.The "raw GNSS" idea is a step backwards, since proper location tracking requires integration between the analog front-end parameters and the software filter. Another Google fail.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 01:03:40 am
content: Quote from: helius on July 25, 2017, 12:58:35 amIt is not a fail. It is an option. Don't like it - don't use it. They are not taking away your regular processed data.They just created some APIs to expose raw data, if you feel like you can benefit from it.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 02:34:30 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 24, 2017, 05:10:24 pmThe GPS almanac transmission repeats every 12.5 minutes. This explains why a stone-cold GPS with no location data would take about 15 minutes to acquire a fix - which is a typical manufacturer spec for first fix.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fixThe same phenomena occurs when starting up a GPS after traveling a long distance with the GPS off. It has to rebuild its almanac based on the portion of the constellation available in the new location.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 04:42:44 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 25, 2017, 02:34:30 amOh yea"good old" standalone gps/map devices which have no data connections, maps stored at terrible expensive card and take ages to find your location after turn onbtw: I have downloaded off line map data in phone to work without data connection (so can navigate even without SIM card in old way)

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 05:31:40 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on July 25, 2017, 04:42:44 amI think you have terminology confused. This almanac process occurs for ALL GPS devices from consumer units to commercial. It has nothing to do with terrestrial maps. It has everything to do with creating a list of satellites in the sky overhead. This process is simply how GPS works.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 05:34:15 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 25, 2017, 05:31:40 amBut good devices can actually store things for later use, do dead reckoning and all that nice stuff to make things go a bit faster.Plain old devices had to do 15 minute things pretty much every power cycle.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 12:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 25, 2017, 05:34:15 amYes, of course. Once the almanac is received, it is good for up to 180 days. The user does not notice further delays because it is continually updated from then on during normal use. GPS devices are far better and faster these days, but new devices or those with updates almanacs will still be subject to this 12.5 minute cycle. It is simply baked into the standard.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 01:20:56 pm
content: Different parts of the world have additional augmentation systems. In some parts of the world the additional augmentation substantially improves pretty much all GNSS technology. These systems depend on additional geosynchronous satellites as well as satellites in medium earth orbit. Also, you can improve the time o first fix by fetching the ephemeris for your GNSS systems over the network. There are also ionospheric and tropospheric corrections, one could also calibrate an antenna if it was stationary. If your antenna is on a car it has the advantage often of a ground plane (better accuracy)Even as the other global navigation satellite systems are rapidly improving. the US's GPS system is opening up parts of the old system that previously were only available to government to professional users, and adding L5 which will allow RTK-like precision with all GPS applications.Several L5 SVs are already transmitting and many more will gradually come online over the next few years. L5-enabled SVs radiate a much stronger signal so it will penetrate much deeper into metal-framed buildings, etc. So it will allow location of people within buildings, a use which in the past the weak signals from space were not up to.