Anyone here  saponify motherboards ?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 01:28:54 pm
content: Question related to most cost effective cleaning solutionfor motherboards (ATX or large form factor)As the size impacts UltraSonic cleaners available volume andrequired amount of chemicals - products to saponify arecheaper - however vast amounts of water are really a problemMay be using a dry oven or related products - some folkshave been using windows/glass cleaners alcohol basedAny experience or advice much appreciated asthe goal is a cost effective solution for volume considerationsThanksPaul

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 01:33:49 pm
content: So others don't have to look it upSaponify = Turn (fat or oil) into soap by reaction with an alkali.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 02:08:22 pm
content: Thanks for the replyMy goals are even humble...I will be glad to know about any solution (cost/effective)acting just like mild water based soap... or detergent likeAlready seen several advices (and videos) but nevera good advice about "THE SOLUTION" ... itself... expensive chemicals would defeat the goal...PROs and CONs and post procedures welcome tooPaul

author: ace1903
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 02:38:57 pm
content: I have got several old PCs and decided to reuse them.Used soapy hot water to immerse boards and stir a bit.Then washed boards with tap water under pressure.Lastly immersed boards in demineralised water (since tap water is really hard-contains lot of minerals).Waited one day boards to be completely dry, changed several capacitors and installed in the housing.All of them worked several years. No ultrasound no special cleaning solutions.Just remove cooler from processor and CMOS battery and start cleaning.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 02:40:35 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 05, 2019, 01:33:49 pmThat is where the word "soap" comes from.I have no idea or advice about what the OP is trying to do but It is good to understand the difference between soaps and detergents. I am sure Wikipedia is a good start. Generally you would prefer a detergent to a soap because detergents leave less residue.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 03:01:24 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on November 05, 2019, 02:40:35 pmSome videos about "soaping" (residue removal) helps.so far some videos but no one put specifics about the chemicals.and they do make impact on performance results and cost/effective

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 03:51:06 pm
content: I am going to guess they are using detergent and not soap even though they may say "soap". many people might use them interchangeably even though they are different things.If I had to guess I would start out with some mild shampoo or dishwasher detergent and make sure to rinse it well so all detergent is removed.E.T.A.: Seeing the OP is in Brazil I have a feeling "saponify motherboards" might just mean "wash motherboards".

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 05:25:02 pm
content: Yeah I have washed plenty of circuit boards just like described above. Dish soap soak then gentle scrub followed by rinse. Final rinse with DI/RO water then gently blast with compressed air to remove bulk water and dry either a couple days at room temp or elevated temp for shorter period.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 06:05:24 pm
content: I once read someone recommended for manual cleaning a multipurpose cleaner called Spray Nine. I tried on a board that used no-clean flux and it worked. Do not know if it cleans rosin flux. If you heed to just wash you boards vs clean the flux then i think it should do. It gets foamy when brushed so may not be suitable for ultrasonic cleaning.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 06:30:33 pm
content: ATRON AC 205 mixed at 5% in water ... spray it on the board(s), rince with hot water and dry it (them) with an hair dryer ....

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 06:31:29 pm
content: Brazilian here. OP most likely meant "ensaboar", which doesn't mean "to saponify" ("saponificar", in Portuguese), but "to lather" (with soap, specifically).And yeah, I have washed circuit boards with soap before, with good results. Mild dish washing soap, to be precise. Just make sure to rinse it well and that the board has thoroughly dried out before powering on again.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2019, 07:16:39 pm
content: 'Dish soap' is an awkward confusing term. The stuff that comes in a plastic squeeze bottle, is a detergent, not a soap. I'm not sure what is used in different countries.Detergents and soaps are 'opposites' (or so it was described at school)... If you cause a detergent to foam (bubble bath is also a detergent) then adding a soap will collapse the bubbles. Likewise, if you lather a soap, then adding a detergent will collapse the bubbles.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2019, 06:13:44 am
content: We used to use ordinary dish washing detergent in the sink at work to clean welder control boards, followed by a good (but careful) drying with compressed air.Revived a lot of boards that went bad due to dirt, grease and iron filing build up typical of a metalworking shop.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2019, 10:39:34 am
content: Quote from: soldar on November 05, 2019, 03:51:06 pmThanks for all info.. but the term came directly from the videosi've seen as guidelines. They really use this term and it isnot a "cultural" related translation problem (in which translationsfrequently fall as being bad terms).My question is direct related to these problems:- What kind of product (my guess is "detergent") is cost/effective- For sure I would never use any other diluent besides distilled (demineralized) water- Proportions of a proper cost/effective solution- proper dry method - among compressed air/ dry oven or even IPA immersionSo far I have not seen a proper confident guideline as toreplace the expensive (due high volume) IPA UltraSonic method.The term itself is frequently used in some videos explaining the "method"But complete lack of the proper chemicals ...The trusty confident method still fallbacks to the IPAor more expensive brand solutions.Paul

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2019, 04:21:37 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 06, 2019, 10:39:34 amWhat videos? Can you link to some? Are they native English speakers?

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2019, 04:31:33 pm
content: Yes they are all native english speakers.But I have long ditched the URLs becausesome time passed in between my youtube searchand my concerns about cost/effective solutions forUltraSonic.I could enter some re-search but I doubt I wouldremember which video does what if so.Most videos really are about soldering and BGA stuffno one cares about that details not even mentionwhat solution and proportion...details that in real world most matters.A bottle of commercial solution may be even cheaperbut in large volume bath repeatedly we need to makesome math in long run to see which one is best.I don't even have a "SOLUTION" proportion oreven the chemical to start..back to first square.Paul

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2019, 06:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 06, 2019, 04:31:33 pmI find that strange. The word, as has been explained, means something else and, in any case, most native English speakers do not know the meaning anyway. Not that it matters but I think you may be misremembering.

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 01:08:45 am
content: Quote from: soldar on November 06, 2019, 06:45:13 pmAgreed. "To saponify" means, quite literally, to turn into soap. A motherboard-based soap would be something strange indeed.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 01:48:18 am
content: Quote from: george.b on November 07, 2019, 01:08:45 amIn the electronics industry, typical cleaners/solvents to remove rosin-based fluxes is (or includes) a saponifier, which converts the rosin to soap so it can be rinsed off. See Kester 5768 as an example. Otherwise, you end up leaving the sticky rosin mess on the board. Depending on the exact flux in use in the process, sometimes a saponifier is needed, other times not. For example, water-cleanable fluxes do not need a saponifier at all, but due to their nature *must* be cleaned. Generally, you can find a recommended chemical on the solder or flux manufacturer's datasheet.Using a saponifier to clean previously clean boards that haven't been re-worked probably isn't necessary. However, if this is a re-work application, you need to find a chemical that will actually remove whatever you are using on the board during re-work.For ultrasonic cleaning in rework, Branson EC (electronics cleaner) seems to be the preferred chemical since it's pretty much universal. If you search for Branson EC on youtube, you'll find lots of people discussing on how to mix it. You don't need much.

author: mengfei
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 02:34:54 am
content: a few friends of mine just used Liquid detergent on their non-working mobo's & some of them did work again!

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 06:42:27 am
content: When I had a few dirty boards I simply put them in the dishwasher, it was OK...

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 09:01:28 am
content: Quote from: forrestc on November 07, 2019, 01:48:18 amThanks. That is very interesting. So we are not talking of just generally cleaning an old, dirty board but of removing rosin residue after rework. Very different things.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 09:17:38 am
content: Quote from: forrestc on November 07, 2019, 01:48:18 amVery good explanation.BRANSON is indeed the best option.Unfortunately legislation here for chemical import is beyond insanity.Adding that a higher VOLUME (like form factors greater or equal ATX)would turn the cost/effective questionable.But with not doubt BRANSON EC line is the best choiceThanxPaul

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 10:20:01 am
content: Quote from: dzseki on November 07, 2019, 06:42:27 amMy brother recently purchased a benchtop dishwasher to wash his prototype and small production run PCB's after reflow.I'll ask how it's working for him.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 10:22:08 am
content: I think detergent would be a good general termbut dish washers lack the "cavitation" of UltraSonicsFar less effectiveAnd I could not resist to post extra comment:- Actually: I don't care about the word used - really- I think a lawyer would happily waste (lot) time on this- I only care about having cost/effective guidelines.- ditch the words to the proper potty.well probably other folks thinks that line is best as wellMore results...much less fuss and words - that amuse lawyersPaul

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 02:08:21 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 07, 2019, 10:22:08 amYou are very wrong in this. Agreeing on the meaning of words is essential when trying to communicate and you are not doing a very good job of communicating. You need to explain better what you are trying to do. As has been explained, it is not the same trying to clean an old board which is just dirty with grime than removing flux residue after working on a board. You need to explain what exactly you are trying to do. You say you are trying to "saponify" and when asked for clarification you say you want to do what you saw some guy do in a video but you cannot remember the video or where you saw it. You are not making yourself clear and it is difficult to offer help in that case. Maybe you are just trying to make bubbles to amuse your daughter?Please explain clearly so that everyone can inderstand what ou are trying to do.Or, you can always subreflush the capterizer in ionimating profluid. I find that always helps.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 02:14:11 pm
content: Don't bother.. just a word joke.I am looking in particular for cost effective UltraSonichigher volume solutions.Name not relevant but brand certainly will impact costAs the water based solutions are cheaperso will be the "detergent" onesQuestion still is if they worth the economic hassle ?or a ready made gallon will be more cost effective in such volumesPaul

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2019, 07:13:18 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 07, 2019, 02:14:11 pmBut to clean what residue and from what type of boards? Is this to just get dirt off? If so, there are lots of useable options.If it's to remove rework residue it gets a lot less straightforward.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2019, 09:17:15 am
content: Quote from: forrestc on November 08, 2019, 07:13:18 amThanks for the replyActually there is a wide spectrum of residues.Foremost the boards are already serviced so there isand there will be different kind of flux residues.ROSIN based or NOCLEAN (I even use NOCLEAN to wipeor wash or "rinse" or soap... whatever...) afterremoving dirt (whatever means necessary) the leftresidues are that classic mixture off odds.there are fat like, grease like, moisture like even insectdecomposition .. wide range like ELCO leakagebut mostly, really mostly:- FLUX residues- CORROSION residues (with the cleaning left over)the bath is important there is no alternativebut the solution itself in greater volumes can be re-thinkedIPA is expensiveBRAND ones (like BRANSON, etc) are certainly expensive...then came to me that idea of rinse, saponify, soap.. whatever..DETERGENT like ... distilled water of course.Dry method may also be a problem to considerI don't have a dry oven of such size which should belarge and carefully temperature aware.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2019, 01:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on November 06, 2019, 04:21:37 pmFor the sake of completion I have found one the interesting URIswhich relates to the demonstration of different agents and methodsfor cleaning...I am not sure what dialect it is if Russian, Ukranian, Polish or else..and although I can map woda to water and identify distilled for surethe DETERGENT they use is completely unclear...It would be great to have some subtitles which this videoin particular does not have..Anyone capable to identify the detergents.. would be a great helphere: forward to about 9 minutes if you want..Paul

author: george.b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2019, 03:16:05 pm
content: Polish, Russian and Ukrainian are languages, not dialects.The video doesn't mention anything but distilled water and gentle scrubbing, followed by drying.QuoteNo detergents.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2019, 09:40:10 am
content: Quote from: george.b on November 24, 2019, 03:16:05 pmI have a hard time distinguishing Scandinavian and Slovenian, Slavic ..they sound pretty much alike and the Macedonian alphabet isharder than Greek to me.I have passed their videos some times and others in native english as well..trying to figure out or spot the mixture used..they boil down to a mixture of some sort of "saponified" distilled water.As you quoted above.. none of them ever posts the mixture and proportionsWithout that element you would not get that "degrease" and cleaning actionso evident on the scrubbing..As my goal is to actually replace expensive chemicals in UltaSonic volumes..that would be the critical information... what agent and what proportion.Paul