Low end soldering station tip quality... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 01:03:40 am
content: I've got a WES51 that I've used for a number of years. I've got one ETP tip that works great and has for years. I've got other Weller tips that have seen very little use and solder doesn't want to wet to them. I clean them in a copper scrubber type cleaner and keep rewetting them with rosin solder which helps, but I could do that 10 times in a row and they still won't work like the good ETP tip.So I've got two questions.First - have the ET tips gone downhill in quality?Second - how do the Hakko fx888d tips compare? Are they better? worse? last longer or shorter?Thanks,Alan

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 02:53:37 am
content: I have M-900 series tips for my Hakko 936 which are about 6 years old or so. I am an occasional solderer. The tips wet just as nicely now as they did when new. The T18 tips replaced the M-900 tips so I would think the quality is just as good. I am selling this on however because I have a new FX-951 and a new to me Metcal MX-500P II. The new owner(when she pays me) has used it and is very happy with it at the price I gave it to her.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 09:56:37 pm
content: SQuote:-//I have used a Hakko FX for years. Before they made the digital version. I have never worn out a tip. OTOH, I never wore out a tip with my previous generic iron, either. Went through two heaters on that iron over several years, but the tips were still fine. In fact, I have never properly worn out a tip on a temp-controlled iron in my life.One of my clients uses Weller WD series irons, and he has complained about the $$ he spends on tips. I won't go so far as to say I hate using the WD when I'm on site, but I am not impressed with the wettability of the tips. Have used one of his solderer's Metcals. That iron was the bomb. Never made so many connections without cleaning the tip.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 10:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on September 08, 2015, 01:03:40 amYou'd better wipe them on wet sponge to clean them (much better than metal sponge for cleaning crusty tips) and then use tip reactivator like these:http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NS4J6BY?psc=1http://www.ersa-shop.com/l%C3%B6tspitzenreaktivator-bleifrei-dose-p-173.htmlThen clean and tin them with fresh solder regularly enough to avoid them becoming crusty again.That reactivator stuff makes magic, revives seemingly hopeless tips.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 10:39:41 pm
content: ^I wish someone could explain how that any different than melting regular flux core solder all over the tip of your iron and then flicking/wiping it off.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 10:51:45 pm
content: Tip tinners are not flux. They are a mixture of aggressive activators such as diammonium phosphate, or in another formulation, hydrobromic acid salts. Soldering with such chemicals would leave unacceptably corrosive residues.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 11:14:35 pm
content: I just discovered "tip thinner" and read some reviews at Amazon. Will try it.Can you guys talk about the differences in the ability of a wet sponge vs. copper scrubber?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 11:31:25 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on September 08, 2015, 01:03:40 amRegarding the ET series, quality has gone downhill (COO = Mexico, which has a higher defect rate than tips they make in other locations; read on).There are alternatives though, so you're not 100% stuck with Weller if you don't want to play Tip Roulette (Plato/Techsprayoffers an equivalent for the ET series for example;here).As per Hakko, they're definitely better IME (thicker iron plating = last longer), so I tend to recommend the FX-888D over the WES51 if the buyer can live without a knob.Quote from: KL27x on September 08, 2015, 09:56:37 pmFWIW, the LT series tips made in Bosnia are a crap shoot regarding quality, and unfortunately, they're the more common profiles, such as the most commonly used chisel sizes (~30% defect rate IME). Yet the tips made in Germany, Japan, or the US are fine as a general rule.Plato/Techspray makesLT series compatible tipshowever, so there's a work-around for these as well.They work quite well IME, and the performance has been consistent so far. Even found equivalents made in China on eBay.Quote from: wraper on September 08, 2015, 10:11:02 pm+1 on this.As mentioned, this is only meant for occasional use in order to rejuvenate/extend tip life (rinse with plenty of fresh solder before using it again).

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 12:04:25 am
content: Quote from: alank2 on September 08, 2015, 11:14:35 pmA damp sponge on hot metal creates a shock. And it's this shock that breaks up the oxide layer, which is then wiped off on the sponge. Works very well for lead based alloys as the temperature difference between set point and after cleaning is low enough it doesn't fracture the iron plating on the tip. The tip temperature is also able to recover in the time between leaving the sponge and touching the next joint as a general rule.Unfortunately, the higher temperatures needed to work with lead-free solder alloys is a problem when cleaning it on a sponge (temp diff). So much so that it causes the iron plating to fracture (as well as a longer recovery time to make the next joint). Since the exposed copper is readily soluble in molten solder, it's leached/eroded out rather quickly turning your tip to scrap (way shorter lifespan = expensive due to replacing tips often).Brass wool abrades the oxidation/crap off, but doesn't damage the tips as brass is softer than iron (stainless is also available, but is more abrasive). And since the temperature difference is smaller again, the iron plating stays in tact, and you get faster recovery between cleanings again as well. Cleans lead based alloys as well of course, and you don't need to worry about keeping distilled/deionized water on hand for sponges either.For lead based, it's really down to personal choice, as both will do a fine job. But for lead-free alloys, you'll want to use the brass wool.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 01:05:48 am
content: What about copper vs. brass? I threw out my old scrap material (I don't know what it was) a couple days ago and put a copper scrubber in there. Will that be ok or should I try to find a brass one?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:05:26 am
content: Quote from: alank2 on September 09, 2015, 01:05:48 amAs per the type of metal used, copper would be fine (softer than iron).Is the copper wool DIY or something made for soldering you bought somewhere?FWIW, the top tier brands' metal wools have a dry flux coating, which does seem to help IME (not sure the Chinese copper wools I've seen on eBay have any dry flux or not).

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:08:44 am
content: I had one of these left over from another project:http://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy-Copper-Scouring-Pad/dp/B00J5HSVC8/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1441768031&sr=8-7&keywords=chore+boy+copper

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:18:13 am
content: Quote from: alank2 on September 09, 2015, 03:08:44 amThat might work, particularly if you can dip it in liquid flux and let it dry.Otherwise, you might want to look into the following:Weller T0051384099Hakko 599-029

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 04:52:41 am
content: These tip cleaners and wet sponges are obviously fixing a problem. I just haven't had to deal with this problem, yet. Or maybe wiping the tip with a piece of dry paper towel every now and then is fixing this problem for me.The tip cleaners I have tried went in the trash as a waste of space. The Radio Shack version smelled pretty good, though.

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 11:58:22 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 09, 2015, 03:05:26 amnanofrog, are you really sure about the flux coating? I've had brass wool from Weller and Ersa (genuine stuff) and never noticed anyAnd I really struggle to understand what purpose such a coating would serve, since you're not supposed to solder to the wool, the cleaning is a mechanical process and any wool-bonded solder would just shorten its useful lifetime. After all, it's not desoldering braid, the idea is to be able to just shake any solder and flux debris off the wool, after you're finished... A coating of flux would be counterproductive, imho...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:23:23 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 09, 2015, 03:05:26 amDidn't notice any flux on ERSA metal wool and don't get why it should be there.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: Augustus on September 09, 2015, 11:58:22 amQuote from: wraper on September 09, 2015, 03:23:23 pmI recall reading that somewhere.FWIW, I've not noticed mine being sticky, which I'd expect if it were coated in liquid flux and dried (rosin or no-clean). But there are some dry fluxes that wouldn't be sticky (think what's in tip tinner <solid as a rock type of compound that melts with sufficient heat>, but not so aggressive).Quote from: Augustus on September 09, 2015, 11:58:22 amI think it's meant to help "attract" the solder if you will (wool is kept free of oxidation), but the cleaning action is fast enough it won't wet to the wool (enough heat bled off). I've scrunched mine a couple of times, and get tiny bits of solid solder that come off.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:17:32 pm
content: Rosin is very low in tack, once it's completely dried. I wipe the liquid over DIY PCBs in lie of tinning. It dries hard and looks a lot like a shellac. They handle fine without being sticky.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 10:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 09, 2015, 08:17:32 pmInteresting.First thing that pops into my mind is Chemtronic's rosin based solder wick (what I have is still on the tacky side, and it's at least 5yrs old).

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 10:56:43 pm
content: Paste rosin has petrol jelly in the mix to keep it from drying out. It's possible it has some additives. Also, you're humidity level is probably higher; I'm in the desert. Dried rosin is a lot like a hard candy. It's not sticky until you start to sweat on it.I'm not even 100% sure that fully dried rosin does much as a flux. I assume the acid oxide reaction needs solvent to work. But I'm putting it on clean traces, and it seems to keep the traces from oxidizing longer than the auto wax I was using before. And of course, it doesn't impede the later soldering.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 11:03:37 pm
content: I ordered a Hakko fx888d to check out. What tips are your "go to" tips. Mostly I'll be soldering 0805 / 1206 / SOIC / a few TQFP. I prefer point soldering to drag soldering....

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 11:15:45 pm
content: I solder mostly the same things, but down to 0402.T18-I, 0.2mm conical, if I could only have one tip.T18-B, 0.5mm conical is a little big for 0402 and for SSOP/QFP, but works fine in a pinch.Edited: T18-CF15, 1.5mm bevel tip for drag soldering. It also does QFP/SSOP where there isn't enough exposed pad for drag soldering, just by pressing down on the pins. Don't even have to take care to hit one pin at a time. Flux it up, and you can do no wrong. I don't know how to make a bridge with this tip. T18-CF2, 2mm bevel tip works too, and you can mash more pins at a time, but it's harder to maneuver around nearby decoupling cap pads.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 11:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on September 09, 2015, 11:03:37 pmI'd recommend a few chisels (i.e. 1.6, 2.4, & 3.2mm as a minimum), a bent conical (SMD passives & pulling bridges), and a dedicated drag soldering tip (hoof with a spoon shaped hollow in the face).I realize you're more interested in point-to-point, but there's stuff that you will not be able to do this way. Even for joints that can be done with either method, the dedicated drag tip is drastically easier to use and will yield better results IME (for best results, use plenty of flux).You can do a very large amount of stuff with just these 5 tips.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 08:55:25 pm
content: I'm not at all pleased with the hakko. I've tried different tips, etc., they all feel so bulky except the T18-I which is a little too sharp. The display doesn't budge, but the tips feel like they just don't have the held heat that the WES51 does. My WES51 with ETP just works so much better for me so the hakko is going back.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 09:49:48 pm
content: QuoteI use I/S4 for debugging/repair/rework, mostly - as in attaching wires where they don't belong.QuoteI find I have to turn up the temp about 40-50C when using these fine tips. That's the nature of the beast. Don't worry what the display shows - that's the temp at the heater, not the tip. There's not as big a conduit transferring heat to the tip. For assembly of SMD caps, SOT23, resistors, and for thru-hole I often use the huge B. I can and will use the B for pin-by-pin solderng down to SSOP, even. I agree there might be a bit of a gap between the fine and the not-so-fine conicals. Most people seem to prefer chisels for general use, so maybe this is why.QuoteSometimes bulky tips work better. For really fine pitch, say MSOP 20 mil pitch, I pull out my biggest tip, CF2. It sucks out bridges almost as good as solder wick - it's mystifying to watch this tip do its thing. I think a monkey could solder down to SSOP with this. The larger beveled/chisel tips are also the medicine if you need actual solder wick. So when it comes to IC's, my playbook calls for bigger tips as the pitch get finer.

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 02:42:53 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 09, 2015, 05:06:35 pmYes, Dave talks about having a flux coating on the wool in his Soldering Tutorial Part 1 (EEVBlog #180) at about 4:00.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 11:09:47 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 09, 2015, 10:56:43 pmWhat exactly do you think the core of rosin-core solder is made of, then?!? If it relied on solvents, solder would have an awfully short shelf life...

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 11:18:45 pm
content: I suppose so. The main active ingredients in flux are acids (abetic acid in rosin, IIRC), and I figured they would work better when dissolved in water/solvent. Maybe I was thinking about it all wrong.

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 08:45:56 am
content: FWIW: I've just opened up a brand new Weller "T0051384099" dry cleaning wool (brass) and it's definitely not flux covered. It's just plain metal wool, nothing more.