Honda and Nissan Merger - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 08:48:28 am
content: News just reproted that Honda and Nissan intend to merge.Talk about also Mitsubishi perhaps joining laterA bit off-topic, but pretty huge news.https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Adventurous-Honda-and-staid-Nissan-explore-merger-5-things-to-know

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:03:16 am
content: So, will Honda turn into Nissan, or Nissan turn into Honda? Context: Boeing and McDonnell Douglas.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:08:13 am
content: Oh dear, that's the final nail in the coffin of the once "Japan's BMW", which as Jumper or Sweater or whatever his name is frequently says, never recovered after the GFC.I have a rule to never buy a used Nissan or Mitsubishi . If you see a car putting smoke out the exhaust it's always a Nissan or Mitsubishi. Nissan also have the awful Jatco CVTs.The ever increasing cooperation between Toyota and Subaru OTOH is two good brands recognising that they can gain from each other's strengths, not paper over weaknesses. which as I only buy cars very well-used eliminates them.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:20:40 am
content: I beg to differ.I have a Nissan (a Cube) that I've owned since 2018 that has given me absolutelyzero problems. Nada. Zip.(Well, the airbag light has been flashing for quite some time now, but besides that, nothing.)It doesn't even burn oil. None. I never have to add oil between changes.They're almost as well-built and reliable as Toyota.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:22:48 am
content: Honda is being pushed into this.Nissan has been in a bad marriage with Renault for a long time now (exacerbated by the Carlos Ghosn situation), but could not afford a divorce. Not sure there is an OEM that willingly wants to merge with Nissan.Mitsubishi is part of the same alliance (Renault - Nissan) (also around 1/3 owned by Nissan), so no surprise about that, also I'm not sure how significant it still is in the passenger vehicle market.Would be interesting to see how the divorce with Renault goes, they share a lot of parts they jointly developed (though mostly through tier 1 suppliers).

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:48:32 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 09:20:40 amThat's practically brand new! For a lot of people that would be only just paid-off.In 2019 I sold my 1997 Subaru Outback to my cousin for the sole reason that I was moving to the USA. 11 months later COVID happened and I unexpectedly returned to NZ and in May 2020 I bought a 2008 Outback 2.5xt which I still use now and plan to use for perhaps another ten years -- at which point it will be 27 years old and have around 300,000 km.Aside from the expected wear items the only thing I've had to do so far is replace a $15 AC compressor relay. And the windscreen (for US$220), but that's not its fault.My BMW R1100RT motorcycle is now in its 30th year, I bought it October 1995, and no plans to replace it. Still runs like a dream.That's the kind of life I expect from a quality vehicle before maintenance costs start to rise to the point that you might consider replacing it (with another 10-15 year old vehicle, not new)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:49:52 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 23, 2024, 09:03:16 amI believe Nissan is the one on the ropes financially, so it's not really a "merger".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:52:58 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 09:20:40 amBarely out of factory warranty!Our 2010 Nissan Dualis +2 has done also 200k and the only problem has been this failed ABS module 6 months ago.We are thinking our upcoming road trip will be it's last, just because we want something a bit bigger, and a hybrid would be nice for daily zero cost usage.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:55:20 am
content: Honda are having a lot of issues going electric. They launched the Honda-e which was quite widely panned, despite it looking unique and having very typical Honda design elements, they neglected to put a decent sized battery in it, so sales are very poor. It has a real world range of about 70 miles.They launched an e:ny1 SUV which is just a rebranded Chinese EV from Dongfeng, I believe. It seems to have major faults, including bricking itself randomly at chargers. It seems they rushed it to market to get EV credits but didn't actually test it, and it will hurt their reputation hard if they can't get it fixed soon.Nissan on the other hand do have EVs but they have rather poor ones. The Leaf is quite efficient but the battery packs seem to be made of chocolate and uses obsolete charging infrastructure. The Ariya is a giant SUV that hasn't taken off because it's too overpriced for a Nissan. But they have the internal engineering chops to make something better and more competitive I'm sure.

author: squadchannel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:14:36 am
content: it has been reported that Honda will take practical control of the company.https://newsdig.tbs.co.jp/articles/-/1634928Quote

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:17:20 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 09:48:32 amIt's a 2010 with ~128K miles on it. Bought it for less than $5K.I bought it used from the original owner, and it came with a file folder with all of their maintenance paperwork.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:27:11 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 10:17:20 amGood for you.We were supposed to intuit that it's a 2010 not a 2018, how?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:37:58 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 10:27:11 amESP? Vulcan mind meld?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 11:05:45 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 10:27:11 amPerhaps because Nissan stopped selling them in the US in 2014..?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 11:37:15 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 23, 2024, 11:05:45 amAccording to chatgpt just now "As of December 2024, the U.S. automotive market offers approximately 275 different models of cars, trucks, and SUVs".Now that I look it up, Wikipedia says 3rd gen Cube was made from 2008–2019 -- i.e. after the 2018 date first given -- though they stopped selling them in the USA after 2014.I'm not in the USA, not a Nissan fan, sure as heck don't off the top of my head know the model years of every car make and model in every country.To appease the Nissan fans out there: I quite liked the brand new diesel manual transmission Qashqai I rented in Copenhagen (and drove all over Denmark and southern Sweden) in November 2017. Coming north from Nyborg to Copenhagen the speed limit was 130 km/h but I got into a line of 20 or so cars all doing 160 and it was perfectly happy. It was loaded with automatic wipers, automatic headlights on/off/dip, speed limit recognition and (optional) limiting you to the speed limit even if you pressed the accelerator more. I think blind spot monitoring, but I don't actually recall. Sadly, no dynamic cruise control -- which my 2008 Subaru has -- but I guess you can't have everything.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 11:39:31 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 23, 2024, 09:55:20 amNissan did something right with Leaf as it became one of the two early EV brands, and was actually more popular than the other one (Tesla) for many years.Nissan was #1 EV manufacturer in the worldfor nearly a decade! Everyone else who started trying around 2010 except Tesla and Nissan, failed.Yet, that resulted in basically nothing. They missed the opportunity of using that market position for R&D of a better lineup of EVs. Plus they missed the marketing value of being #1 EV manufacturer.All they were able to do was to increase the LEAF battery size somewhat (I have the 60kWh and it's pretty decent, like a real EV, even in winter!), which of course if you have to choose only one point of improvement, is the correct one. But totally insufficient. They should have been adding battery thermal management like everyone else was doing. They should have been listening to local infrastructure needs and sell their vehicles with different QC ports depending on market; like, it's not their fault EU went for CCS, but they should still sell the damn socket that is in actual use in area of sales.My point is, Nissan had a big advantage of being #1 EV company and having a huge customer base working as test subjects. Yet they didnothingwith all that market insight. All it resulted in was Ariya, one expensive SUV EV more with the at least ten direct competitors, and not any earlier than all the others, late in that party as well. Their initial position on the race was excellent and their result was the same bare minimum everyone else was able to deliver too.Instead, they should have done a real improved LEAF2.0 already in 2019 (when they launched the 60kWh version) allowing them to do a facelift to it a few years later and usethatin the highest EV boom of 2022-2023, and possibly improve the EV offerings by another completely different model (maybe Ariya).Like, it would have been a real EV. Heck, people have installed battery heaters and people have done Chademo-to-CCS mods on LEAFs and these modded vehicles are very close to the performance you get from top performers of today. Nissan was almost there but did not pay attention.LEAF in many ways is an excellent car, but the few main shortcomings are huge red flags especially to car journalists who have entered the mode of not acknowledging even theexistenceof LEAF anymore, and to some consumers these shortcomings are also real showstoppers. Others can live with them, but in today's competition being "manageable" is not enough anymore, people expect to use EV in a way it can truly replace an ICE vehicle.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 11:54:50 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 23, 2024, 11:39:31 amLeaf seems like a decent commuting / grocery shopping car for city dwellers, and two of my cousins (that I know of) have them.I'm 54 km drive from the small town where I do a lot of my supermarket shopping, buy my freshly roasted coffee beans, get my car's annual safety inspection (and had the windscreen replaced this week ... damned stones ...), do all my home/garden/tools shopping etc.As I understand it, 108 km return at highway speeds (and with big hills), plus say 10km of running around between shops while there, would be pretty sphincter clenching in a Leaf.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:02:38 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 11:54:50 amI don't know, I drive 140km trip regularly, like every two weeks. In summer, it goes both ways (280km) without having to charge. During winter I either plug it in a Chademo for 15 minutes while shopping to get the missing 15% or so, or leave it AC charging overnight.The difference in usability between the "original" 24kWh LEAF and the since-2019 largest battery size 60kWh is just huge. Especially in winter because the original didn't have a heatpump, currently it does. Like, real winter range jumped from 80km to 200km or so.The 40kWh battery option is an awkward mid-ground. With 40kWh, you are forced to quick-charge A LOT if you do want anything more than commuting/shopping, and quick charging LEAF sucks. But 60kWh seems to work as something which feels like a "big battery", especially given that LEAF consumes around 17kWh/100km and not 25 like large premium SUVs which therefore have less range even with a 70-80kWh packs and price tagfour timesa used 60kWh LEAF "nobody wants".This is exactly why I wrote that. With the largest battery option the battery size and range of LEAF is not the problem anymore, like it was the #1 problem LEAF is known for. Yet Nissan failed to dootherimprovements, and they failed to communicate they have a decent EV!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:17:55 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 23, 2024, 09:49:52 amISTR McDonnell Douglas was on the ropes

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:19:21 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 11:54:50 amDepends on the model... 24/30kWh yes would be a challenge, 40kWh is probably doable with some careful driving, no issue at all in the 62kWh model.One of the big issues with the Leaf that Siwastaja alludes to is the lack of thermal management. Consequentially, the Leaf is a very poor road-tripping car. The 62kWh car can charge at around 70kW peak, and the lack of cooling means the battery quickly overheats, so the next charger might be 60kW... then the next might only be 45kW... It means the car is not that useful beyond the first 1-2 charges in a day. Meanwhile, my ID.3 can do 130kW peak, and sustain 100kW to about 30%, if the battery is at least moderately warm, and it will consistently do so. And a Model 3 with a 55kWh battery can do 170kW peak and sustain 100kW until about 50% SoC.Ariya does have a liquid cooled battery, and Nissan made an interesting optimisation to that car, which is that its charging curve is very flat, around 130kW with no variation until 50% SoC. There is a benefit to this which is that customers don't really need to consider SoC when arriving at a charger. But the disadvantage is the car is rather slow to charge compared to other competitors in its space; the ID.4/5 for instance charging at 170kW+, and the Model Y at up to 250kW.The Leaf in the older forms also has lots of battery issues, which make the cars relatively short-lived, and I think this put off a lot of people from considering their newer cars, even though those issues have been "fixed" to some degree.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:36:11 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 23, 2024, 12:19:21 pmI think most people forget that Nissan was very early to the electric car market. The Leaf was best selling electric car about 10 years ago, and while it had issues, there wasn't any experience building cars before.I was on the team of engineers that were building the electronics for the battery manufacturing plant back in 2011-2012. It was larger than any similar factory before. It really surprises me that they didn't follow up with a lot more electric models afterwards. I didn't really see about the internal politics, since we were just a subcontractor, making the battery formation systems. Nissan seems to had a large portfolio of hodge.podge cars, with quite bad sales numbers on the EU market and very misguided goals. Like the Nissan Juke, that they targeted the young generation, bad styling, and which was purchased by retirees. The styling of the Leaf was also bad, only reason it was selling because it was electric. I just don't know what were they thinking.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:38:02 pm
content: Ah, ok, I'm sure I don't know anyone with a 2nd gen (2018+) Leaf! I just took a quick look on trademe.co.nz and didn't see anything over 40 kWh and those were all at least 1.5x-2x what I paid for my Outback. TBH if I was going to spend that much in an attempt at lower running costs it would have been a 3rd gen (2009-2014) Prius.I'm thinking in the early 2030s I might look at 2020 or so RAV4 Hybrid for my next car. Or preferably Forester, but so far the hybrids have been junk -- there's only a single example in the Fuelly database (though it's done 100k km), and it's averaged 7.3 l/100kmhttps://www.fuelly.com/car/subaru/forester/2020?engineconfig_id=632That's really not a great improvement on my 2.5 turbo Outback's 9.2 l/100km (with a best of 7.9):https://www.fuelly.com/car/subaru/outback/2008/brucehoult/1005227The 22 2020 RAV4 hybrids are averaging 6.26 l/100km.https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/rav4/2020?engineconfig_id=639Tesla Model Y would work as well, but I can't see them being in my price range by then. Maybe.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 23, 2024, 12:36:11 pmBut at the same time Tesla had never built a car before and they fitted liquid cooling/heating to their batteries because they saw it as a necessary function. As a result there are 10 year old Model S's driving around on their original battery packs with 200k+ miles usage on them. There is a taxi company in the UK that has a pair at around 400k miles each with no more than normal maintenance. The batteries are down to 75% SoH, which isn't amazing, but is still quite usable for their work.Other manufacturers around the same time did not make the same mistakes Nissan did. e-Golf has a fan cooled battery (not as good as liquid cooling, but a little better). BMW i3 has a very complex refrigeration system for the battery pack which is surprisingly reliable but quite expensive to build. It directly pumps refrigerant between battery cells to extract heat. Renault Zoe was developed in partnership with Nissan and it also has an air cooled battery.But the biggest mistake Nissan made was chemistry; the LMO chemistry they selected on the 24 and 30kWh cars was only also used in the i-MiEV as commercial EVs go, and it has terrible longevity. Many 24kWh Leaf's are down 40% on battery capacity after 100,000 miles. Whereas the comparable e-Golf has lost only 10% in the same time.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 23, 2024, 12:19:21 pmTo my knowledge the issues were almost exclusively high temperature related, their LMO chemistry simply isn't stable in climate like, say, Texas especially with no active cooling of battery pack of any kind. The cells just calendar wear in 2-3 years while sitting at +50degC temperature. On the other hand e.g. here battery problems have been very rare AFAIK because of colder climate. I have 92% of capacity left after 130 000km (full 12 out of 12 in Nissan speak, I wonder when the first bar disappears) which is notmuchworse than what is seen on best-performing, temperature controlled batteries of e.g. Tesla and others, which could have maybe 93-95% left at this point.The way Nissan handled the problem by modifying the firmware to alter the capacity fade metrics and therefore effectively retroactively modifying the warranty conditions, to reduce the number of warranty cases by removing large group of "close calls", was of course a nasty thing to do but other companies do similar shit all the time so I don't think that act was particularly bad for reputation. The fact that Nissan Leaf isstillknown as a 24kWh low-range EV is a much bigger issue, given that the 40kWh and 60kWh models superseded them quite early, already before 2020 when public interest in EVs started to rise. Nissan should have done more to remove this "small battery" stigma, maybe even rename the car (with those other mentioned modifications).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 23, 2024, 12:48:32 pmIf you have a 62kWh car it's an NMC chemistry, same as most other EVs. The 40kWh is NMC too.24 and 30kWh cars are LMO, with some 30kWh cars having "LG Lizard NMC" cells, it's not clear exactly when the transition in the cells happened.The degradation issues only seem to impact 24 & 30 cars; the 40kWh cars are mostly OK, though frequent rapid charging with the high cell temperatures has created some issues for taxi drivers. (Stories of battery packs bulging the bottom case off!)

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 12:38:02 pmThey changed the appearance so that it doesn't look that stupid anymore, more like a "normal" car, a boring one. Now that I own one, I also notice others all the time. Before I had one, I didn't realize the whole thing exists at all, but they are surprisingly popular.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 01:10:50 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 12:38:02 pmTo expand on that (and Leaf) ... if a hybrid RAV4 uses 6 l/100km then at today's prices that's NZD 18c/km. Or a Prius at 5 l/100km is 15c/km.EVs under 3500kg pay 7.6c/km in Road User Charges. My off-peak electricity is 36.39c/kWh so at 170Wh/km (as Siwastaja quotes for his Leaf) that's 6.2c/km. So 13.8c/km in total, which is almost indistinguishable from a Prius 15c/km.Oh wow ... I just checked, and there's a lot of 2012 Prius with 100k-120k km for $9000 or $10000 now (5000 to 5500 Euro or US$). That's a big change from when I bought my current car in 2020. 2nd gen Leafs are WAY more. Let's not even mention Tesla ... I can't see anything under $32k - $35k even for a Model 3.What's going to happen to petrol and electricity prices in future? I think electricity will continue its trend over the last decade of increasing in price at a faster rate than petrol.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 01:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 09:08:13 amYa have to be careful with that sort of thinking, sometimes it proves the opposite.Does seeing a larger number of smoking cars on that road that are Nissan/Mitsubishi prove those brands are badly made and fail often, Or does it prove those brands keep on going after other brands have already died and no longer on the road to be seen.Personally, I had a 1990 Nissan EXA with CA16DE and it just kept on going.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 01:52:45 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on December 23, 2024, 01:11:48 pmVery true. It depends entirely on the specific model & engine type whether a car is reliable or not. Even the factory where the car was buid can make a difference. The only way to find out is by investigating reviews from owners who have driven the specific model for >150k km.Anyway, given the huge car manufacturer mergers in Europe and the US in the recent years, it doesn't surprise me the smaller Asian brands are merging as well.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 02:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 01:10:50 pmNo wonder EVs don't seem to make sense there!Best regards, off-peak averaging 10 euro-cents/kWh.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 03:00:19 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 23, 2024, 09:49:52 amI think all three of them are in a bad state, but Mitsubishi is worse than Nissan, which is worse than Honda.30 years ago the three brands the car industry wanted to be were Volvo, Mitsubishi and Honda. Good sales, good profit, low warranty costs, and the highest brand loyalty in the industry. Volvo, has since been sold twice, Mitsubishi has been starved of investment for years, and has a pretty obsolete line up, and Honda has been stumbling. Nothing lasts for long in industry.I assume Nissan has also been starved of investment for a long time. If not, why didn't they sort out JATCO years ago? Its those CVTs which seem to have done more than anything else to hurt their brand.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 03:06:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 23, 2024, 12:17:55 pmYeah, McDonnell Douglas's management had run both their commercial and defence businesses into the ground. From this stellar record they got control of Boeing and repeated the process. Boeing's current sad state is no surprise at all. The surprise is how thoroughly a well run business was susceptible to an infestation by parasites.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 03:15:08 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on December 23, 2024, 12:36:11 pmI think the lack of a follow up was down to money. I don't know how much Renault injected, but Nissan seems to have stumbled along since they were about to go under, and Renault moved in. Nissan were still really good at engineering when they built the first Leaf. I assume its shortcoming came down to a lack for development funds, rather than a lack of engineering skills, or an understanding of what it would take to make a good electric car. They didn't really do any styling of the Leaf. It more or less reused an existing ICE car body. I can't remember the name of the model, but I had a rental one for a few days in California.

author: lokin4areason
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 03:42:48 pm
content: whenever i worked on nissian(s) , it was such a pain to work on . try changing out a starter on a rouge . not fun and a bit to do before you get to the starterbeside that , honda(s) were pretty much straight forward in changing out item(s) on the engine , imothis should be an interesting merger . and also seeing at what kind of component(s) will be as well in being interchangeable . . .what will happen with part number(s) ? would it be cross referenced thru honda and nissian with the ev line ? or its a headache waiting to start ?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:07:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 23, 2024, 03:15:08 pmThey had very experienced engineering team working on the Leaf. I met the Nissan Gtr's chief Engineer, who was working on this car. Yes Tesla's éven back then we're water-cooled, and they were sold at a loss. The Leaf was a lot cheaper and it was turning profit. Hindsight is 20/20 of course and they should have used liquid cooling. But it was going up against the heap of junk Michibishi IMiev, it improved on it a lot. It was the second modern electric car 2 years before the Model S, and the best selling up to 2020 as I recall. There was no experience whatsoever how to build a good electric car.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 23, 2024, 02:39:20 pmI live in a 180 km long region with 75000 people, and a 50 MW geothermal power station that supplies basically 100% of our electricity.As I write this, Ngawha is producing 49.5 MW and consumers are using 37.1 MW (which as I calculate just now is almost exactly 500W per person). The difference is being exported to other regions. At peak times we need to import a little from other regions with their gas or coal or whatever.Usage at peak times is charged at 72.78 c/kWh.But we have lovely beaches. And winter days average +15 C. And I have bananas growing in my back yard.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 09:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 09:52:53 pmI don't think there is a connexion. I used to have bananas growing in my garden, and my electricity was cheap. Now we can't grow bananas, and electricity is more expensive.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 23, 2024, 09:49:52 amBut that's what happened to Boeing--MD was "on the ropes" as well but they were a well-connected defense contractor and Boeing got talked into a "merger" instead of letting MD go bankrupt, firing the entire management and buying up the remnants. Nissan has demonstrated the connectedness and ruthlessness of their management by how they dealt with the guy that saved them, Carlos Ghosn. Nissan has nothing to offer us anymore IMO and should be allowed to shrivel up and die. However, the Japanese government isn't going to let that happen, even if they destroy Honda in the process.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 23, 2024, 09:56:42 pmIt's a compensation, not a cause.Though low population density does make many things more expensive.

author: alpher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:07:34 pm
content: I have 3 Nissans at home 2 Qashqais and a Murano, no problems whatsoever, but what I wanted to point out is that the same model manufactured for a different market may be a really way different vehicle. Qashqais sold in NA for example (Rogue sport for those south of the border) is made in Japan with way different engine than these made for European market. Free of eurobulshit it's actually very decent car (I own 2 of them 17 and 19) . Also much dreadded CVT on Murano (being 12 year old) gave me 0 problems so far, you just have to follow oil change intervals .

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 10:13:38 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on December 23, 2024, 09:20:40 amI worked at a Nissan dealer long ago and I observed that Nissan simultaneously built what were probably the best and worst cars on the road--the Maxima and the Pulsar/NX.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 11:12:54 pm
content: Another merger among equals? Or an outright acquisition?I see these company mergers like an organ transplant. One company has to assume the role of the body, the other the role of the organ. The organ is to be assimilated by the body, not the other way around.To stretch this analogy further, sometimes this assimilation process becomes very difficult, causing significant trouble to the body, and requiring considerable effort to avoid an outright rejection.Which is exactly what happened between Daimler and Chrysler. Which they had the business sense to eventually dissolve, even though it caused significant financial pain.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 10:22:53 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 11:37:15 amI didn't know either, which is why I looked it up on Wikipedia.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 10:34:39 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on December 23, 2024, 11:12:54 pmNissan are pretty unique in terms of big Japanese car makers afaik; they don't really have much in the way of business doing other things. Maybe this has hurt them, long term?Also the "partnership" with Renault was quite one-sided, and ultimately probably did them more harm than good.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 02:45:35 pm
content: Nissan + Honda = NiHon?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 03:01:35 pm
content: Nionda, Nisonda are the only two pleasant marketing names I can think up of for western audiencesHon + san sounds like a stereotype

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 03:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 23, 2024, 09:49:52 amThe Boeing / McDonnal Douglas meger was similar. Douglas was in financial trouble but had a lot of government / military contracts. The US government pushed Boeing to aquire them with Boeing being dominant and the resultant company being called Boeing. In the long run McDonnal management culture took over Boeing and is often credited with the deprilrotization of engineering excellence and eventually be 737Max crashes and multi year grounding.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 04:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 24, 2024, 03:01:35 pmHondasan has a nice ring to itBut maybe it means something really bad in Japanese. Not that it kept Japanese car makers from coming up with bad names. Like the Mazda Laputa. That car didn't sell well in Spanish speaking countries

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 04:11:38 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 24, 2024, 10:34:39 amAgree.By that same metric, Mazda is in worse shape than Nissan, simply because it has a smaller market share.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 04:15:10 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on December 24, 2024, 02:45:35 pmHonda = 本田Nissan = 日產Nihon = 日本, which is Japan.I don't think calling the company Japan is going to work.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 04:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 24, 2024, 03:01:35 pmPerhaps come up with an entirely new name, which essentially has no phonetic relationship to either company, like Stellantis did.Which IMHO, sounds terrible for a car company.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 04:24:51 pm
content: honsan, honorable honorable

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 04:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on December 24, 2024, 04:15:26 pmI think someone was riffing on Atlantis, for the car company that sinks beneath the waves.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 05:50:12 pm
content: the nissan leaf sounds suspiciously like a puddle jumperI think its freaking awesome and handles great

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 06:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on December 24, 2024, 03:27:47 pmThat's my recollection, but I couldn't be certain.

author: u666sa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 07:06:18 pm
content: They can do whateer they want, you have to realize, cars made in Japan are something different, than cars made anywhere else in the world. It's their work culture.Same nissan with right hand drive 10 years old used brought to Russia driving over potholes can drive longer than a brand new nissan build and bought else where. That's just the reality of situation.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 07:18:41 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 23, 2024, 09:52:53 pmGood for you! But I can charge my Nissan Leaf with low-cost electricity overnight, so that I can run the heater for 45 minutes to melt all the thick ice from the windscreen, to drive in grey darkness to a store, get out of the car only to slip on ice and hurt my back, curse and go buy bananas from the store, slip again on the way back to the car, drive home in darkness and cry while eating the bananas.But at least I have cheaper electricity to enable all this misery and shitposting on this forum.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 07:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 24, 2024, 07:18:41 pmBut you can only buy curved bananas, due to the EU regulations the British wrote as a joke, before leaving the EU. If you grow them in your own garden you can have the straight ones, which are much more flavourful. That's the kind I used to have in my garden.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 10:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 23, 2024, 11:39:31 amYeah, the 2011 and 2023 leaf look almost the same on the inside, they made a few important improvements over time but not nearly enough to keep up. Battery as you say being a big one.Just like Toyota, best hybrid on the planet for years, could have expanded the battery and transitioned the design into an EV, but no. 1997 prius was ~2kWh, 2022 plug in prius only had a 9kWh battery in it.For a laugh there are even some chinese companies offering leaf pack upgrades, 62kWh CATL $8k:https://www.vivnevs.com/products/62kwh-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-180ah-catl-lithium-battery-for-leaf-battery-upgrade?VariantsId=12862

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 07:22:54 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 24, 2024, 10:26:53 pmNot just the Chinese. LEAF is an unique production EV in the sense that 3rd party mods and upgrade kits are available, e.g. from Muxsan. There was even one guy in Finland who ran a business of Leaf battery repair and various mods. I think this is due to combination of three reasons:1) crappiness of original LEAF battery creating the need2) popularity of LEAF creating the market3) simplicity of LEAF making the 3rd party fixes and products possibleDon't know about the current situation, but at least some point even official replacement battery pack for the LEAF cost just 8k from Nissan, making it cheapest EV battery replacement pack ever (others ranging between 20k - 100k, some close to the price of the new car).In many ways LEAF was a no-bullshit EV and it's sad Nissan was unable to conquer the EV market any further with progressively better products responding to true market needs, like others finally did.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 11:05:10 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on December 24, 2024, 04:15:26 pmThere is zero chance that the Honda name will be dropped or modified; it's the name of the founder, and the Japanese care a lot about stuff like that.The Nissan zaibatsu acquired Datsun (the oldest core car manufacturer in the group) in the 1930s and after some shuffling of the various businesses under its control, the car manufacturing business became Nissan Motor Company.I'd be surprised if the Nissan brand was dropped or altered; they don't really compete directly with Honda very much, at least in the home market which is what the Japanese care about. There will probably be some rationalisation of models.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 11:08:18 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on December 24, 2024, 04:11:38 pmQuite possibly, and by strange coincidence, another example of a previous unequal partnership with a western car giant (Ford).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 11:22:42 am
content: it does have a loyal following. Changing customers preference is hard and maintaining the same product line is pretty reliable income so long nothing slips.And if they really get access to the marketing doc's following a merger it might become obvious specifically which model Nissan was using to compete with Honda in whatever market if any. Usually they have some consumer studies or other things that point to a clear direction, because marketing does often seen to be driven by (dodgy) data. The kind of data that might make investors think their not gambling but engineers thinkand actually, like they already don't know. they probobly knew exactly where and how for 100 years.just do a snip snip on not selling it in japanBut who knows what is happening with cars now. Every time I see the Tesla truck I think WTF. So DIY armored cars are in the vogue now. It looks armored but it does not have the necessary rounded features, making it look like it was welded out of spare plates to lead a martian uprising, there was no time to bend the armor plates. I can see why cars that look normal are having trouble competing if tesla truck is people secret desire. As a engineer it just makes me think they can't afford press dies and that its easier to linear weld, if they do weld those.Will we get a update for tail fins next?I think tail fins serve to remind us cars are not treated any differently then clothing lol. I always thought tail fins looked like they belong to a bat not a fish btw

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 01:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 25, 2024, 11:22:42 amFor some reason Japanese car manufacturers cut very succesful products. Over here the Mitsubishi Carisma was super popular. It was produced in the NL together with a Volvo model. You could find two or three in every street for a long time as they easely lasted 20+ years. When the co-operation with Volvo ended, Mitsubishi didn't follow up with an equally succesful model. Unlike Ford; they have been making the popular Focus model for 20+ years with & without involvement of Volvo.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 01:52:35 pm
content: I think in Europe they put their fashion 'processing power' more on clothing then cars so there is a greater market for longevity... especially when it seems that if you are going some where important/fancy, your car is banned by at least a few kilometers, and there is less taboo about public transport.All the cultural centers where people like to show off seem to be banning cars because of congestion and other issues. They seem to be banned or restricted near the middle of important places.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 10:00:29 pm
content: Of the several Youtube videos discussing this issue, on one of them had this gem of a comment:“Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi are becoming Japan’s own British Leyland.”

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2024, 01:50:59 am
content: Out of the 3 it will be a bit interesting which way things goHonda has been consistent with OEMs like Nippon Seiki for a lot of there electronicsNissan has been consistent with OEMs like Kansei,Mitsubishi seems to pick differently for every model so its never consistent,