intel stick computer questions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cncjerry
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2022, 08:03:02 pm
content: Hi,First off, I see RAM vs ROM on these stick computers. ROM, as I've used the term, is Read Only Memory yet on these sticks, they say "ROM is where you store your programs and data." Is it just a misuse of the term? I did some searching but since ROM is used on the sticks, there is nothing obvious as to restrictions on use.The sticks I've been looking at use either the J4125 or the Z8350 processor. The J4125 seems to have 3x the performance, approximately, for little more money. Unless someone has a better option than the J4125, that’s what I would select.Most use a TF card for external storage though I assume you can attach faster USB 3 drives. The thought of executing from TF would be abysmal.Other than that, most have wireless or other networking options and with USB3 I can add my own. The application is a VST host to upgrade a piano keyboard sound system. I’ll set it up to autoboot and load the VST and midi drivers. My concern is performance as a 1.6 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5 macbook barely runs the code without crackling but I think there are VST host issues, etc that can be much improved. I’ve seen others running the same basic setup on the Intel 8GB sticks with Z8350 processors. The intent is to insert it into the keyboard with internal wiring.Thanks

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 12:44:00 pm
content: Nobody dropped here... so... you seem a bit confused .. these terms changed over the years."STICKs" is probably the most confusing term you can use...Theseprocessorsyou are referring are Intel CPUs.CPUs over the past years changed quite a lot internally...They used to haveexternalmemory controllers... (on MOBO)but they incorporated the memory controllers on the die these days...So when choosing a CPU you should look their datasheet for supported range of memorysticksand other speed data..Most relevant in this case is what type of RAM - DDR RAM - these controllers can use...ROMs on the other hand also changed *ALOT*They used to be UV EEPROM (27C512) but today they are really some sort of flash memory.. (29F200) and they have been incorporated into MCUs (like AVRs) as well.. blending these borders where ROMs and RAMs are used..The ultimate guide is the datasheet.Do not mix wrong stuff..Paul

author: 50ShadesOfDirt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 03:01:29 pm
content: RAM = what the program will execute in, so 8GB is goodROM (really file storage) = some amount of GB of eMMC storage (like an ssd)Lots of makers of "sticks", but most seem built for the TV space. The one you found, w/ 8GB of RAM, might be near the top of the heap, if not the top.Don't know much about music & VST host (but interesting reading), but could a mini-PC be stripped down enough to work into your requirements? They might offer more power for the app, as there are gaming versions. There's a multitude of size formats for these things ...

author: cncjerry
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 07:14:26 pm
content: Thanks, So the ROM is typical SD like storage and I see most can take the TF cards to expand them. The more I've looked at these things the more the features have creeped. It looks like I would have to spend about $200 for one capable of acting like a VST host even though others have done it for less. my mac mini M1 has more lag at times than is practical using the osx developer AU software. Sometimes rebooting the keyboard fixes it so it has something to do with the midi over usb interface, maybe. I've tried some of the VST hosts others have used and I'm not happy with the lag. I thought if I could do it for under $100, then it would be an interesting fix for an older keyboard. I can always get one from Amazon and return it if it doesn't work.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 04:41:24 am
content: A bit of "back to basics" may help.ROMstands forRead Only Memory. Read only, can't write to it- ROM being read-only, is only appropriate to store stuff that you don't change.RAMstands forRandom Access Memory. Read or Write, randomly accesses.- RAM being random access which is any order of access is supported and both reading and writing are supported. But - it remembers only for as long as it is powered on so it is not appropriate for stuff that it needs to remember even if it is not powered.So in the old-days with things likeOperating System and application programswhich isn't suppose to change,they get stuffed in ROM. Present day you have software updates, so the software industry want "ROM" that can be updated be itinfrequently. Sothese days ROMs are "mostly read" and "occasionally written", slower to access butremembers even when power is off. Stuff like flash memory and EEPROM fits the bill nicely - cheap but read is practically unlimited where as after too many writes (thousands to hundreds of thousands times) it would wear out . You can be sure there are other kind that could support that, but flash/EEPROM is typical.When your program is running, the have stuff it needs remembering as the program works. For example displaying a video on YouTube. Which dot displays red or green or blue or off changes depending on the frame of video you are seeing - and it changes hundreds of times in minutes. The program needs a place to storetemporaryinformation as it work to "expand" the streamed information, expand it to a picture and to draw it on the screen. Also, the program doesn't need to remember what was on the screen a few minutes ago so remembering is only to remembertemporary. Thus, ROM (read mostly) is not appropriate: good in remembering but can't write often. Even worst, in the process of expanding the streamed information, you may have"temporary values" that may change thousands or millions of times a second. It needs something that can be read in or write out quickly and and do millions of write every second without wearing it out. That is where you can't use stuff like "mostly read rarely write" flash/EEPROM.You need RAM, fast and practically unlimited read or writeto store things that a running program needs to store - temporary.Since RAM is a good bit faster than ROM, besides temporary values, the program itself is transformed from "being stored" into "able to run" format and moved from ROM (being stored) to RAM (being run) when the program runs. So every program steps (instructions) can be read fast - so as to run millions of program instructions every second.Whether you fit it in a box, a button, or a stick, that is just how you house it. In the same housing, you could have other things so the reference to "stick" is the physical shape, not necessarily what it does. Memory stick typically refer to flash drive. Stick computer is of course a stick housing enough memory (both RAM and ROM and may be eMMC), processing power, input/output capability, etc., etc., to call itself a stick computer.eMMC is flash made to store stuff like a disk/disc. Typically (suppose to be) somewhat better than USB "memory stick" in balancing wear so it doesn't wear out as easily. So, eMMC is a cheaper imitation of SSD. A real SSD is flash designed for storage like magnetic disc with durability similar to magnetic disc; may be not as good but good enough to be competitive with magnetic disc.Hope this helps in your understand in ROM vs RAM.

author: cncjerry
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 05:25:41 pm
content: Thanks for the explanation. I know all there is to know about RAM, ROM and computing except for these so-called sticks. I worked for IBM on the PC and others before released in the early 80's. Without sounding like a dinosaur, most of the sticks make the distinction of storing data in ROM and I would have assumed it was more of a WORM than a ROM.I've since re-envisioned this project as the benchmarks on the z8350 and J4125 are on the borderline for anything other than a light VST. I’ve kicked around buying one off Amazon and returning it if it doesn’t have the performance.Jerry

author: 50ShadesOfDirt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2022, 04:57:37 pm
content: So, you're exploring the stick pc's, and may buy one. I don't really understand the "keyboard" environment, but am assuming some kind of music keyboard with space under the hood, and the stick would get wired in somehow.Don't forget the mini-PC format, which is huge and varied ... lots of vendors doing things in this space that *might* fit under your size constraints.Also, and perhaps more iffy ... an RPi w/ 8gb of ram, and possibly a small SSD hooked up to its (avoiding an SD card), running Windows 10/11 IoT stripped down to just enough to run the VST Host. An advantage of being reasonably inexpensive ...