The other toxic co worker - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 12:16:08 am
content: So, I used to work for a small start up and we needed an extra hardware engineer. After taking some interviews, a seemingly capable person shows up and we hire this person.-The first week I noticed something strange all ready. He wanted to have meetings with the managing directors all the time and didn't want to communicate about those meetings. This goes on for a week or two. The only thing he came up with is that I'm a difficult person to work with, and he doesn't know how to go forward.-The third week he asked me: Who is the boss in this department. I told him we have no boss in our department because we are just a team with four people, and we know what must be done. He answered me with an arrogant schmuck on his face: I will be your boss between this and a few months. You will see.-The fourth week or so, I'm having my lunch, and he joins me. The conversation went a little like this: Do you know people from my country hate people from the country your wife is from? Long ago, he continued, we crossed the border and chopped their heads off. Especially women and children because they deserved. All that with the same arrogant schmuck on his face I saw before. What do you think about that, he asked me... I told him I'm not here for politics.In the next weeks, he reviewed some of my work and wrote extensive e-mails to our management pointing out each and every mistake he could find. So I now have to go and defend myself with management over things which are irrelevant, like solder mask definitions in gerber files and other practices for which exist many ways to achieve the same thing.I went to my manager and asked if I could fire this guy after those events. But they told me they need people and don't want to fire anyone at this moment. That's when I left the company.What would you have done in such a case?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 01:15:45 am
content: Were you part of the initial interviews, and didn't notice anything unusual?Did you specifically tell your manager either they can find a replacement or you will look for another job?This is the whole point of having probationary periods, if the person doesn't work out its easy to get rid of them. Assuming that is a thing in your country, as you didn't list a country code.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 01:49:44 am
content: He is on your team, so you guys are partners. In my view, it is every team member's responsibility to work with and to bring out the best in other team members. Do what you can to help him adjust.Mean time, know what you are dealing with. So make sure any damage done is addressed -- ie: don't let him damage your reputation with those in power. Don't be defensive and don't argue or finger point. That will do damage to you even if you are in the right. You are not at war with him. You are on the same side as him. Going to the power that be with this issue is likely view by them as wasting their time because this is not a productive action. Time diverted to doing this is time not spend on productive things. So if the situation demands an elevation, it is veryimportant to frame the issue and your own mindset as an action to help him get better. This will make the action a productive one because the result will be an action improving the team."...He answered me with an arrogant schmuck on his face: I will be your boss between this and a few months. You will see..."For people with little experience, modulating their ego in alignment with their ability is difficult -- they don't yet have the experience working with great employees. You got there first, so you should be the more mature one. Don't let that bug you. Don't even need to quip about it. Let them learn at their own pace. Smart ones will learn humility soon enough, dumb one will learn humility in between this and his/her next job.Bare in mind, as your career grow, you would likely deal with more senior people. Those senior people typically had to grow their own career (except if they are son of the owner or something like that). Some of those would have an ego that grew at a fast pace than their career. So as you move up steam, you may have to deal with folks with ego well beyond the size of the room.Don't look at this as "office politics" alone and proceed to avoid the bad smell of politics. Having a temperament to deal with over-size ego and/or to deal with prima-donna(s) is a useful skill. It is an interpersonal skill that will make you more valuable to your organization.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 02:25:56 am
content: QuoteQuoteI don't think there is any kind of help for a person reverting to these kinds of personal attacks.QuoteNo, he was very polite, nothing unusual.

author: u666sa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 02:30:59 am
content: Some people are just garbage / anti-social / sociopaths, etc.I once was riding a bus to Warsaw, my sit was near the window. In the middle of the way guy comes in, tells me I'm sitting on his sit. I told him, do you want me to show you my ticket? Eventually he did figure out that his number is not next to window. This caused him entire way to fight for elbow room, having trouble letting me out on stops to go outside, and just generally being stupid all the way through. What was his problem? In retrospect I think he was a sociopath. There was nothing I could do with this guy. It was his choice to act that way.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 02:46:20 am
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 12:16:08 amWow. I don't know what country you're from but a lot of this would be considered work place harassment in the US and at the companies that I've worked at in Canada. And the remarks about your wife would almost certainly be considered racist and be cause for him being immediately fired! His remarks could also be considered a veiled threat to you and/or your wife and that would not be tolerated either.I think that you need to talk to your management about his remark that he is going to soon be your boss (and his other remarks as well). And if you don't get a satisfactory response from them then it's time to get out! I've suffered through bad work place situations and none of them ever worked out well for me in the end.IMO either he needs to go or you should leave.And I see that you did. Good. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 03:45:20 am
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 12:16:08 amI think you did exactly what I would have. But also: as soon as someone shows you that they might try to act against you, start a journal. Write down everything clearly and explicitly. Don't infer things that didn't actually happen, but do explain your reaction and interpretations.If you ever do decide to escalate to management or take legal action you will need it. But even if you decide to ignore it or walk away, there is a chance the person will pursue invented legal action against you. You would not be there first person I have heard of who walked away from a toxic work environment and was then accused of either sabatoge or theft.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 04:08:59 am
content: You could, maybe, let some time pass, but be observant. Your older boss might let slip a grumble or two, about the 'new dweeb'. Maybe consider this: that one of your bosses is also peeved, (and getting spoken about).At one job, a friendly co-worker did tip me off, as I had no clue about office politics and power games. That woman was the best ally, making me feel welcome, even tho some one person was trash talking my work.Another time, a person trash talked about EVERYONE, on the phone to older friends, back east. His calls often started with trash talk:Like "These guys don't even......". Wear a tie, show up at 7, use a napkin, etc.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 07:05:02 am
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 12:16:08 amWe have a proverb here in Croatia : "Fish stinks from the head"..I am self employed for 25 years, so not employee, but as a consultant, have been collaborating in many companies.Which enabled me to see all kinds of situations like this.Good managers call this "toxic element problem". It is well known thing in management. You get a person that is toxic for some reason. Narcissism, all kind of psychopathic traits (from inflated ego to full psychopathy), toxic depression, even obtrusive optimism can be disruptive...And good managers recognize it, preferably in interview, but some toxic personalities are good at pretending..That is a reason for very old school and standard practice of "probation period", where you take someone on board for upfront prescribed limited period, where you can simply not accept them with no explanation or struggle.When something like this happens, people affected usually make a mistake of over analyzing details of what is going on, dwelling on symptoms (on what is happening) instead of causes (why is this happening) and solution. This is normal first reaction because we are emotionally invested and take such insulting situations personally.In your case, we have:- a toxic person causing problems (what is happening)- management did not send them away and did not try to find another, right person. (this is also WHAT is happening)- since you are not psychiatrist you don't care why toxic person is such and even less how to fix them (which is not possible anyways most of the time)- so your problem is WHY management does not fix a mistake.- if you speak to management, point to error, and they fix it, you are golden. SOLVED.- if you speak with management and they not only do not fix it but they show signs they will never fix it(or maybe only when really big problems arise) than management is source of all problems. From experience, once that starts happening, soon there are 2-3 such as*holes there, because this environment is good fertile ground for them. Good people run away, only those with toxic agendas stay.Stroustrup once said "An organisation that treats its programmers as morons will soon have programmers that are willing and able to act like morons only."..- you can only leave then. You cannot fix anything.So I think you did only possible thing you could.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 09:31:37 am
content: Thanks for extensive replies. When I left the company, my boss told was surprised and didn't expect I would leave the company. Strange because two of the managers knew what was going on.QuoteDuring the job interview he acted completely normal and he was genuinely interested in the products we developed. A wolf in sheep's clothing. Later on, he liked to blame others for being narcissists and gas lighters. This person is the most toxic person I ever met and very far out of tough with reality. At some point he also asked me if he could have a word in private with my wife. I asked why. He told me "that's none of your business".The total lack of respect and other peoples boundaries was stunning at best.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 10:06:35 am
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 09:31:37 amOMG, that is a clinical case...What normal people usually think is that this kind of people do bad things "for a lack of empathy" or something.Which implies "it is not their fault, they do not know better".That is completely wrong.They know exactly what they are doing, they know consequences for other people they abuse.They count on it. You see, normal people are willing to pay the price of something to get something.You put in effort learning to pass an exam. Pay your own money, you had to work for, to buy a guitar.You sacrifice yourself for your goals.These kind of people simply calculate it is better if you or me or anybody else pay for stuff they get. With somebody else's time, money or whatever.They abuse and sacrifice others. That is more profitable, and if they can abuse more people at once, they can be more productive.Once you are not useful to them you don't matter anymore.So you make yourself unavailable for their abuse. You evacuate the affected zone.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 10:30:14 am
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 12:16:08 amI had similar coworkers. He spent his probational period all nice than lied about me and had the audacity to gaslight me as being the problem.Fire his ass, zero tolerance. There is no teams for these people.Just go to your manager and tell him that the new guy has to go.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 11:06:36 am
content: This is a sad story.Recently one of the startups I'm involved in hired a special agency to help build a team from people who fit well together. Reading this story and the experiences of others, using such an agency makes sense to me. In the end it is also beneficial to the employer to have people working who amplify eachother's strengths instead of going at eachother's throats and/or make good employees leave.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 11:36:31 am
content: I hear these kind of stories and they scare me but also hard to believe.Don't get me wrong, I don't think these situations don't exist, and I did see some toxic backstabbing at my first company. But it was in the pharma sales department, with whom I shared common office space (big medical corpo).I find it hard to comprehend someone in engineering would do this, well more be able to stay in the industry for a prolonged time with such behavior.Worst I've experienced is just lazy, avoiding pressure situations, avoiding responsibility, jerking off while "working" from home (I'm not being totally figurative)...But this I understand, this is part of human nature, not everyone is in this industry because they like it. Some are in it just for the paycheck.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 11:46:37 am
content: QuoteThey didn't want to listen until I left the building. I had a conversation with management about why when I left, and they wanted to solve the problem. I informed them that it was too late.Later on he even dared to call me to complain that a power supply for an Ex approved product didn't perform as it should be and if I knew something about that. I stayed polite as usual and after some simple questions it turned out to be his own mistake. Perhaps I should have been less polite and let him suffer for a few weeks.It didn't take me long to find a new job. Here people treat each other with respect whichever disagreement we have.QuoteYou never expect something like this, and it caught me off guard.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 12:07:20 pm
content: Wow, a real actual dangerous psychopath! Fortunately those are rare (especially asemployees), but still pop up in real life every now and then. The correct actions are likely to either murder them, or run; any other option doesn't seem to work. I really suggest the latter. The former option works out when you are one of those dangerous psychopaths, too.The real shame is on the others at the company for not realizing, and as a result making their business a lot more difficult, especially if they were understaffed.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 12:09:17 pm
content: You forgot a step. You said it's department of 4 (without a boss). What did the others think or experience? Were they on your side? Could they have been.Your managment didn't want to fire the dude because they wanted the job to get done. You should have made them more afraid of you and potentially the rest of the team leaving.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 12:22:47 pm
content: QuoteThey were freelancers and observed things from a distance. They knew something was going on but focussed on what hey were hired for which is normal.One of the managers thought it was just some friendly banter and I should grow some thicker skin.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 01:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on July 10, 2025, 03:45:20 amThis is great advice and I should have suggested it. Sit down and make careful notes of everything that happened and of who said what and when it was said. You never know when a former co-worker or boss might try to slander you or to sue you directly so you need to be ready to disprove their accusations.You mentioned that the company was a start-up and I think that what may have happened in your case was that the company managers may not have been very experienced with managing employees and they were more concerned with trying to build the company than with the dealing with internal clashes between employs so they ignored your concerns.The last company that I worked for before going back to university had a few similar situations going on and I talked to my managers about them but the company was doing well so they just let things continue. But I had some other issues going on at the time (divorce) and I just got feed up with all of it so I gave my notice. The company managers were absolutely horrified when I did and at that point they did seat down with me and we spenthourstalking about some of the things that had been going on and they were seemingly obvious to. They offered me anything that I wanted to get me to stay but at that point I had already decided to move on so I thanked them for their offer but said no to it. They wrote me a very good letter of recommendation and we separated very amicably. I returned to that area about two years later and visited with some of the people that I had worked with and they told me that after I left there were a lot of big changes and that nearly everyone that I had complained about had been fired or laid off. And that the company had replaced our part time and untrained shop foreman with a full time manager.Leaving the company where I was doing very well and had a good future was a drastic measure but in the end I did much better because I went back to school and got my engineering degrees and then went to work for a much better company with better pay and working conditions.My only other advice to you is to not burn your bridges. If you have a beef with someone in the company then keep the blame about them and don't attack your managers unless they actually did something wrong (other than ignoring the situation). You never know when one of your former bosses might be a future employer.Go get another job and don't look back. Good luck.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 02:28:14 pm
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 09:31:37 amManagement can be unpredictable at times in situations like this. Friend of mine used to work with a sociopath co-worker (technically ASPD, I'm using the more commonly-used term) whom management were aware of from people referring them to news reports of other things they'd done at previous jobs, e.g. preying on students while working at a school, which you'd think would be, you know, a gigantic red flag, but they did nothing. The sociopath is still at the company, many others have left to get away from them.Other companies are more proactive. Another friend of mine, until it got too much for him, used to be brought in to evaluate candidates for management positions for dark-triad traits. For example he'd arrange to interview them at a restaurant where he'd pre-arranged with the staff to get their order wrong and see how they reacted to that, things like that which would eventually trip up non-high-functioning psychopaths/sociopaths.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 06:49:28 pm
content: QuoteThat is an excellent idea.

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 07:36:39 pm
content: Good Morning Temperance, Do you still have contact with the others in your group? Ask them how the new guy is doing and how the group, 'as a whole' are doing and if the psychopath is picking on anyone else.If I were you I would be EXTREMELY curious about the goings on since you left. Have you found another job yet?, if not good luck and I hope you find a better job then the one you had, with a better wage and no psychopaths. Hang in there, Friend.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 09:29:24 pm
content: QuoteSure, I found another job a week later. I have great colleagues where I work now and interesting projects to work on. Thank you for asking. I'm not so interested in what is happening there. I only wanted to know what other people would do when confronted with such a person.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 10:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 11:46:37 amLots of people are used to complaints every day, say they are about to quit, doesn't mean much unless you explicitly say "either he goes or I go". Maybe in more polite but very clear words. As Dave has mentioned, have that resignation letter ready in your pocket, show them you are actually serious.Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 12:22:47 pmWell sounds like shit management and not worth staying around. But you still might want to work on your communication skills in the future.

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 10:36:09 pm
content: A single advice:Don't go postal on the toxic guy. Simply. Don't.And by going postal,I meanyou losing your temper and start yelling profanities, throwing out office supplies, or any other emotional outburst.Those who lose their temper, lose their jobs.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 11:46:16 pm
content: QuoteOf course not. As Siwastaja wrote:QuoteNot being the former, I choose the latter.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2025, 03:02:06 pm
content: Well, it's a life and it can be eventful. One my former colleague was my compatriot and a former artillery officer. Actually, he's a good guy although too active and assertive. A lot of energy inside. He even joined the local amateur hockey team. Once on a business trip, we went outside to watch a natural phenomenon unique to that area. Soon he said that it's boring and we must go to the main street where all the night bars are located, to enjoy the social life. We spent some time there and then I'd decided to return to the hotel since there is nothing new and we have to be on the return flight tomorrow. But he continued the bar bouncing and missed the plane next morning. Another time, during the debugging session at the customer's site, he left prematurely because the hearing of his DUI case in court could not be re-scheduled. I had to deal with his part of the code I was not familiar with. Once I told him that I'm tired of his stupid initiatives and commanding attitude. We're not at his battery and he's not a hockey coach. It's no wonder his wife divorced him. And that from now on, I will see him following me one step behind and never ahead because now it's my turn to start telling him what to do. And that for a country boys like he, it's always better to be humble. That insulted him a lot and he stopped communications with me. Eventually, his dream became true, he bought a house, bought a pistol and invited all his numerous friends to a party at his new home. There he became drunk and started running around the house with the pistol in his hand. Next day, the police came to him and said that they'd received a report about a shooting in this area. If he knows anything about that, he's welcomed to tell them at any time. I don't know what to do with those guys. It's in the men's DNA. You can't turn a black cat white by washing him. A lot of conflicts are caused by personal incompatibility. It's not always clear, who's more toxic to whom.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2025, 07:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 12:16:08 amFollow the news and you will find people who lost their lives over saying something less than making a threat to someones family. Recently there was a stupid YoutTuber who was shot for harassing a person for views. It was all captured on video and shooter was acquitted.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2025, 01:15:39 am
content: The laws here vary state to state. It would be good to know the local laws ahead of time if you did plan to take action.This was the case I previously mentioned. This guy was armed with a cell phone. He's physically large compared to the other guy and refused to back off. I guess if your goal is to provoke people to get views, you need to expect that a certain number of them may have a low threshold.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2025, 03:18:04 am
content: Quote from: Njk on July 13, 2025, 03:02:06 pmRednecks are everywhere. Some years ago a friend of mine who lives in rural Pennsylvania was outside with his Uzi trying to shoot down the moon. He was unaware that there were still a few rounds in the clip and accidentally sprayed them across his kitchen cupboard when he got back inside. The next day his cleaning lady came in, looked at the damage, said "9mm huh?" and went back to cleaning.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2025, 10:34:42 am
content: The world is infested with infantile narcissists and their numbers are on the rise. In my lifetime I've seen an amazing breakdown of society and morality. I saw it go really bad when I was a kid in the late 60's and early 70's. What does that coincide with, could it be the snobbery of competetive consumerism? The rise of my car is my cock. They say if you havent stopped being a an adolescent twat by the time you're 27 then you never will. How true.Advertising promotes “your way” as the core attraction, social media tailored to only what you believe in, a failure to tackle low level antisocial behaviour (aka complicity) toxic role models, "influencers" and the celebration of violence in our entertainment industry all contributing to this freak show. Not only has the wool be pulled over our eyes but it plays jingle bells when you rub your face up against it. And now we have people who believe in nothing and can be persuaded to believe in anything. Idiocracy. Also the title of a prophetic B movie well worth watching. Being disgusted by Putin, Trump, Netanyahu and thier pals isn't politics, its taking the appropriate position to protect our dignity and decency. There is no "other side" to the story, just wickedness.My first EE job was with a small company. They made systems for railway signalling and power plant control. So, mission critical stuff. I worked with the draughtsman to ensure that the plans matched the scrappy sketches we were given. There were four senior engineers who all truly loathed each other. At the core was a dangerous person who had a scary arrogant and delusional personality. He was never wrong even when he had severely fucked up. He used to pin people up against the toilet wall and threaten violence to anyone who disagreed with him. “Oh well, that’s just Matt” our manger used to say…… This guy stank like death too. An evil pig. Hi Matt if you're on the blog! I moved on after a couple of months of this shit. I got a much better paying job and I recall saying to my young wife "At least I won’t have to work with crazy people anymore". Hah! How wrong I was. Next, I worked in power plant coms and instrumentation. Megalomaniacs and thugs galore in this industry.It’s not unfair to say that there are lot of engineers who are more than a little disturbed and socially dysfunctional. We have above average membership. Aspergers, “neurodiversity” etc. are very common in our business. Not to speak ill of the dead (and some of the living) but many of our engineering and science heroes belong in the worst of the worsts rogue’s gallery.Horrible people abound, I haven’t known many people who can say that they did not have to contend with at least one vile coworker. There are lot of type c-units in this world. Most people want to attain a higher social status and sadly lots of of them think that stepping on the face of other’s is how you do that. The thoughtless pursuit of power corrupts. I have a very long list of offenders from my places of work. Thank God I’m retired and I only have to deal with nutjobs in the family. I’m sure that’s reciprocated! I come from a working-class background and I still unashamedly speak in that vernacular. I am of generation X. I’ve often been the subject of unpleasant presumptions about my attitudes. Classism. Just the other day I heard a guy saying “of course, we were all racist misogynists back in the 70s”. I called him out saying that “we” was not the word he was searching for and that “I” was more appropriate. Arsehole. I always call it out now I don't give a solitary what these poeple think of me. I am shocked that people of all ages races and genders people feel that we oldies are happy to hear their shocking and disgusting confessions. Racism, sexism and religious hate being top on the agenda of course. And all of this hate inevitably being transacted along a two-way street. There are plenty who believe that their traditional (unexamined) group prejudices are normal, justifiable and that anyone who mentions it is a hater. Any fool can see this is and excuse for the true haters but it has politicians and the media running sacred. Thats a symtom of vanity.And my pet hate. Theatre and film crews, delusional arseholes unlimited.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2025, 01:08:55 pm
content: QuoteYou guys have some good stories. I've never heard of anything even close to this going on where I have worked.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2025, 03:31:38 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 16, 2025, 01:08:55 pmNor have I, at least not to that level.I've had a boss who was ignorant and kept screwing up my designs after I released them, but that wasn't him being evil, just stupid. At a different company there was one software engineer who had delusions of adequacy, and a truly toxic personality. We eventually had to fire him, but he went on to start another competing company with millions in venture funding. His new company crashed and burned in a spectacular manner, with him being led out of the building in handcuffs. He could talk a good story and be persuasive, for a while.Some of the bad problems related above are probably due to what I would call "old company disease", where deadwood employees accumulate which gradually drives out the competent ones. Unless there is a cataclysmic change this process feeds on itself and only gets worse. I wasn't a job-hopper, and typically stayed at a company for at least five years, but I wasn't afraid to look for a better job when I could see the writing on the wall. My last two jobs were start-ups, which almost by definition don't have under-performers or toxic people (at least not for very long). The company that acquired my last start-up has a policy of firing / retiring / laying-off the bottom 10% every year, even when growing. This can be done badly and is painful, but when done right can avoid much of the old company disease. But this requires good management from top to bottom, and that's far from guaranteed.My advice to the OP: Get out. (I think he did, and good!) At my first tech job I was fired (not for lack of competence, but because of office politics). I had a better job within a week, and this calibrated my thinking about the employee-employer relationship. Do your best and be ethical, but the company has their own priorities and your welfare is pretty far down on the list. You've got a job, not a marriage, and it's not "till death do us part". If you don't like the trajectory you're on you need to change it. It's not your job to save the company from themselves.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 05:09:52 am
content: I supervised a really difficult person once.For example, she was using a label maker and had dropped about 100 pieces of backing paper on the floor beside the trash can. I asked why and she said that's the janitor's job.After about a year, she complained about me and refused to work with me.Boss gave me a hard time and gave her a new supervisor. A month later she quit. I asked the boss to retract their statements as clearly, I was not the problem. I lasted 12 times longer with her than the other supervisor did, and he'd been there a long time and had a good reputation.I quit not too long after that. Worst place I ever worked, quitting was probably the best career move I have made. If your boss can't detect and remove pyschos, they probably aren't a good boss.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 11:22:01 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 16, 2025, 03:31:38 pmFor a neverending supply of (usually) amusing war stories about this sort of thing, I can recommendThe Daily WTF(as well as be glad this site doesn't run censor-happy filters that won't even allow you to post the letters "wtf" like another site I can think of). Endless stories about "Bob has been with us for years, he runs our $thing on his personal PC running Windows 3.1 and we're not going to change that".

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 11:28:29 am
content: Quote from: Kasper on July 17, 2025, 05:09:52 amFriend of mine just resigned after her boss gave her a written warning about her poor time management when she had to keep working late to deal with the 150% workload she was given. After she'd resigned a bunch of her coworkers asked how much notice was required (zero) since they were all thinking of resigning too.That's one important thing to ask in any job interview, what's your employee turnover, optional "in the last 12 months" / "in the department I'll be working in". If it's more than a few people (depending on the size of the group) then don't even bother with the interview. I know several people who have resigned from their jobs due to toxic work environments and in most cases the turnover was ongoing, in one case at one point a leaving function was almost a weekly event.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 02:20:54 pm
content: Quote from: 5U4GB on July 17, 2025, 11:28:29 amThat's a good one. I often ask "how did this position become available? Are you growing or replacing?" I like your question more though. It is similar to employers looking at how long applicants stay at each job on their resume.Would you dare to ask for references of three of their recent employees?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2025, 04:35:36 pm
content: Do not challenge the hiring manager with these sort of asks, there usually is a line up of candidates, the managers do not have time to play your games and will just move over to the next one.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 01:25:23 am
content: Quote from: Kasper on July 17, 2025, 05:09:52 amActually I don't really agree. Psychopaths arebrilliantat manipulating people, and they always charm the boss so they can backstab their colleagues. I had a colleague - a psychopath - who was an absolute bastard, but the boss thought the world of him. He cheerfully undermined his colleagues to the boss, essentially destroying their professional reputation. I think relatively few bosses can tell when they are being "handled" by an accomplished psychopath.There's another factor, which might be controversial, but I'll say it anyway. I've observed that male colleagues can spot a psychopath pretty easily (especially as they are usually the victim of the psychopath's backstabbing), but it seems that, by and large, women cannot spot them. Indeed, women often find them attractive (especially when the women are young). It appears to be biological; psychopaths are often alpha males, plus they can "charm" a woman in a way that feels entirely authentic. It is only later, when the woman has got hitched to the man and become dependent on him, that he drops the facade and becomes controlling and abusive. This is a story that is all too common.So, if your boss is a woman, she may be even more vulnerable to the charm offensive directed at her by the office psychopath.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 03:51:23 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 18, 2025, 01:25:23 amIf you've never experienced a psychopath being manipulative it can be hard to understand just how good they are at this. A psychopath will convince you that black is white even when you know it isn't. Robert Hare, who created the principal diagnostic test for psychopathy, once gave a talk where he mentioned sending final-year psychology students into prisons to talk to psychopaths, so convicted murderers and the like. A lot of them came back convinced the person had been wrongly convicted. These were trained professionals who knew what they were dealing with, and they were still fooled, so imagine how hard Joe Sixpack would find it.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 06:03:51 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 18, 2025, 01:25:23 amExactly, which is why I would give bosses some slack (in many cases), and say "if your boss can't detect and remove psychos, they probably aren't anexceptionallygood boss."

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 07:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 18, 2025, 06:03:51 amI approve this wording change.I think bosses should be very critical of anyone who is trashing their coworkers but I do agree pyschos can be quite charming.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 08:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on July 18, 2025, 07:14:24 pmIndeed, but it is almost never "trashing" - it is usually much subtler. Anyway, I'm sure the OP has got the message!

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 08:47:45 pm
content: Quote from: temperance on July 10, 2025, 12:16:08 amQuote from: SteveThackery on July 18, 2025, 08:31:42 pmThere are some subtle ones but in temperance's case, and in the one I shared, they were not subtle.Often it starts subtle before they make their attack but in both cases, their attack was not subtle and the boss still fell for it.In my case, that was the worst boss I have had and this was just one of their many mistakes.