Are ethernet powerline adapters a good idea? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Plexter
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 08:41:23 am
content: Hi all!I recently found out about the powerline adapters which allow people to use their home's electrical wiring to transfer ethernet data to different rooms. I'm wondering, is that a reliable way of doing things? As far as I understand that means running data through a mains cable so I'm not sure how well will that work out. I've noticed some people mentioning the adapters saying they've had them without an issue but I still can't quite figure out how it works reliably.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 08:51:58 am
content: it's a luck device ... if it works it's ok, if not you're not lucky ...you plug it, it works, if you put it in the wall next plug it does not work. that's it.if it works and you buy let's say a new microwave oven, then it may not work after that, and you have to move the plug to make it work again.you must have a recent electric installation or for sure it won't work in the plug you want ...IMHO wifi is far more reliable than powerline adapters (for ethernet)

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 10:31:31 am
content: IIRC, there are already a few threads about PLC. Please use the search function

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 01:42:52 pm
content: I've been using mine for many years to get ethernet to my home office and had no problems at all.I got a couple of Netgear HDXB101. Newer ones might be better I'm sure.Cheap ones probably don't work too well but who knows. Look for reviews before purchasing.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 02:48:18 pm
content: The decent ones work pretty well if they are connected on the same group/phase in the house.Personally I do not use them out of principle , it is a nasty workaround for what you want to do, you modulate a datasignal on top of a high power line.Which means the data throughput can be influenced on other noise or use of that same powerline.I did have once a lightcontrol system that used a primitive powerline principle (x10) and sometimes it just did not work, very frustrating.Only recommended use of ethernet and limited power is PoE.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 05:34:12 pm
content: Overall it worked better than wireless for me.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 05:55:03 pm
content: They work really, really well if you hack them to run on phone lines.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 07:34:24 pm
content: Power line ethernet is a braindead idea that should never have been allowed on the market: it is a broadband HF band jammerin disguise.Anyone interested in shortwave radio reception hates these things with a passion!

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 08:02:31 pm
content: Really sorry then for you Radio guys, but I've been using one for the last few years and it's excellent. I need to get internet into my basement (workshop). The floor/ceiling is reinforced concrete, no holes for new cables and w-lan doesn't make it through. With the powerline I can relay the W-lan in the basement or connect directly with a cable. I've tried several versions / makes. My advice:- Don't buy cheap, the known name devices really are much better.- Make sure both devices are on the same phase (if you have a 3 phase system in your house).- If you have multi phase, try to keep noisy devices (fridges, touch dimmers etc) on a different phase.McBryce.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 08:06:18 pm
content: Quote from: wkb on July 12, 2015, 07:34:24 pmAt least shortwave radio works fine where they have no internet which is where is mostly needed. The rest will use internet streams instead.

author: Matje
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2015, 10:15:05 pm
content: Quote from: wkb on July 12, 2015, 07:34:24 pmI would also wonder about the effects on high-bandwidth measurement equipment, say DSOs and stuff. I don't believe every device has filters that good in it's power supply.I mean Dave checks his new LED lights for possible switching noise, but here people plug stuff into their power lines that is *actually meant* to introduce HF into it, into infrastructure never designed to cope with crap like that in an at least somewhat defined way. It's just crazy, at least for anyone having an electronics lab or a ham shack.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 05:36:46 am
content: Quote from: McBryce on July 12, 2015, 08:02:31 pmBuy a decent hammerdrill or hire a pro. Not a problem for a decent drill to go through 30cm of concrete if you go besides the metal frameUsing Ethernet powerline is as running water through the gaspipe to save a pipe

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 05:57:29 am
content: Quotelike that one ! =)

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 05:58:45 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 13, 2015, 05:36:46 amThat's just a silly comparison and placing a facepalm doesn't make it more true, how are you going to separate the water from the gas? No, Really! I really want to know.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 06:10:56 am
content: From the Twitters.Quotehttps://twitter.com/eevblog/status/620156338983714816

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 06:16:38 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 12, 2015, 05:55:03 pmAnd even better if you hack them to run on cat5

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:07:50 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on July 13, 2015, 05:58:45 amI know it is silly but it does feel like that when someone uses this technology only because he has a concrete ceiling and a cheap drill.But to answer your question about the seperation, the whole (petro)chemical industry uses that for decades, it is called liquid/gas seperators.examples enough but they are for large scale industrial use, but for household use something like that could be fixed. Where the analogy goes wrong is the pressure difference between water and gaspipes.http://www.pall.com/main/fuels-and-chemicals/liquid-gas-separation-technology-5205.pagehttp://www.sulzer.com/hu/-/media/Documents/ProductsAndServices/Separation_Technology/Mist_Eliminators/Brochures/Gas_Liquid_Separation_Technology.pdf

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:11:37 am
content: Well actually, I have a drill that would go through the concrete quite easily, however, I don't own the property, I rent it and the upper floor is also covered in hardwood that is extremely old and expensive. If I was the owner I would have drilled through as soon as I moved in, but that's not an option here unfortunately.As far as test equipment common mode noise is concerned, my equipment is on a different phase and I don't see any extra noise when it's plugged in.McBryce.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 03:43:43 pm
content: How much impact do filter caps, like X and Y caps in SMPSUs, have on PLC?

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:43:32 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on July 12, 2015, 08:06:18 pmThere are also the radio amateur folks out there. PLC should have been taken to the back of the shed and shot.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 09:32:34 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 13, 2015, 09:13:20 pmPoE and this thread have nothing to do with each other.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 09:55:02 pm
content: I switched from WiFi to homeplug or whatever it's called, and tried two different versions, single phase in a two bed flat with three APs appropriately channelled. Although Homeplug was more reliable than WiFi, it was still unreliable, possibly due to variable loading on the supply, but it also seemed to coincide with darkness, I assume as the S/N degraded due to ionospheric effects in the evening. Like WiFi, Homeplug never achieved its alleged speeds.The main reason for "copper" was for a more reliable connection to allow centralised backups of a couple of PCs, and WiFi just wasn't working quickly or reliably enough. But nether was homeplug.Instead, in the end, I laid that flat CAT6 cable tucked under the carpet edges and under the doors between the three main rooms with switched, and added the three APs covering the entire flat with appropriate channel interleaving. I've since moved the same setup to a three bed flat, and it works very well.In short, save yourself the agro and uncertainty of a half baked solution, and wire up instead.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 05:25:15 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on July 13, 2015, 09:55:02 pmIn the evening all the crap LED and Halogen dimmers get turned on.WiFi is bad in the evening because the ratio use by the providers, they don't assume all customers get online at the same time. They often use 10:1 ratio of overbooking.And because in the evening all devices are home and actively used, more overall WiFi traffic in the narrow 2.4ghz band. No vague atmospheric conditions involved.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 05:57:16 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 14, 2015, 05:25:15 amI agree it could quite possibly be LED lighting plus dimmers rather than ionospheric effects. Either way, I didn't find Homeplug anywhere near as reliable as anticipated.I wasn't suggesting ionospheric effects up at 2.4GHz by the way. (Been a ham for 35 years, a good proportion of it up in the microwave bands). While the WAN contention assertion is valid in some circumstances, particularly ADSL, I would expect that to affect performance of wired Ethernet connections as well as WiFi and Homeplug to the internet, and not the speed of backups on NAS on my local LAN in any circumstances. Personally I use cable usually, with ADSL as a backup, and the cable maxes out at about 150Mbps and is fairly static at that with a minimum of 90Mbps occasionally. The ADSL, well, that's like wet string in comparison, but better than nothing at all when the cable fails, which recently it has been doing on an almost monthly basis.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 07:51:43 am
content: with Wifi, you always have the possibility to add one or 2 access points between you and the main wifi, with compatible AP you can effectively extend the wifi network, and so get a nice wifi signal everywhere you want, even under big concrete.I've never been caught with wifi at a customer's network, you can always have a good signal with some more APbeware some AP cannot do a network extension (all providers boxes for example ...) so the next AP will not be able to extend the network...at the contrary I've been forced to leave a homeplug install because the installation did not permit itso now I simply dont loose time with homeplug and go directly with wifi and always win so far.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 08:06:37 am
content: Wifi , yeah it works untill there is too much traffic on the same bands and you're stuck again.With a wife and kids using their iPads and phones and neighbours doing the same the complaints are starting (see my previous topic) so I did install another AP for my selfAnd last month I upgraded my homenetwork infrastructure to an optical 10Gbps cable between two switches , one on the ground floor and one in the attick where my servers and hobby room are.From those switches one 10Gbps to my computer, a 4 time 1Gbps with link aggregation to my NAS, and all other devices get a single 1Gbps connection.Weakest link in my network right now is my 150Mb/s internet connection, i think I am ready for the coming 5 years

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 08:31:37 am
content: I've been using a pair of TPLink powerline adaptors at home for over 4 years now to link some upstairs and downstairs devices.(My dislike for exposed cabling overcame my qualms about the technical elegance of this solution.)From memory I think these are supposed to be up to 150 mbps and I'd estimate there is less than 10 metres of cable between the two devices but according to the status leds they are only achieving the lowest of the three throughput levels.This is my third pair, the first and second having each failed after about 6 weeks, but happily this set has been trouble and maintenance free for over 4 years. They run quite hot so they've probably consumed a lot of my electricity by now. Some day I'll get around to running an ethernet cable instead...

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 05:18:39 pm
content: I have several of these:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AWRUICG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpagethat I have been using for 3+ years and they are fantastic. I use VoIP phones and this lets me put a high quality Cisco desktop phone wherever I want without worrying about running cables or using shitty WiFi VoIP phones. I also use them to run a network printer and another computer that's not in a Wifi accessible spot.The only time I touched them was when I initially set them up. I've never had to reset them, and they've never lost connection. I get fast speeds and never any issues printing or with voice call quality.Highly recommended. And never had any noticeable issues with interference.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 06:56:50 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 14, 2015, 05:18:39 pmThat's one of the two sets I have as well. If there's a Fry's near you, they often have that exact kit on sale for $30.They work quite well over power lines as intended, but they perform outstanding when modified to run over phone lines. I have my modified set running over several hundred feet of old phone line (in rental property) and in all the testing I have done, they perform almost as well as 100BaseT in both bandwidth and latency, not to mention near zero packet loss.Teardown:I also have a Trendnet set that also works well but not as good as the TP-Links. Since they're the same price, I can't exactly recommend them. They also have an oddball nonisolated power supply design (isolating the Ethernet port instead) that complicates the phone line mod.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 09:32:09 am
content: Are those as simple as desoldering the transformer and hooking up a cable?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 05:31:55 pm
content: TP-LINK may be cheap, but they're not badly built.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 09:02:14 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 16, 2015, 09:00:20 pmCode:root@subspace-transceiver2:~# cat /proc/cpuinfosystem type : Qualcomm Atheros QCA9533 ver 1 rev 1machine : TP-LINK TL-WR841N/ND v9processor : 0cpu model : MIPS 24Kc V7.4BogoMIPS : 366.18wait instruction : yesmicrosecond timers : yestlb_entries : 16extra interrupt vector : yeshardware watchpoint : yes, count: 4, address/irw mask: [0x0ffc, 0x0ffc, 0x0ffb, 0x0ffb]isa : mips1 mips2 mips32r1 mips32r2ASEs implemented : mips16shadow register sets : 1kscratch registers : 0package : 0core : 0VCED exceptions : not availableVCEI exceptions : not availableroot@subspace-transceiver2:~# uptime21:01:21 up 70 days, 20:28, load average: 0.07, 0.03, 0.05Of course, if you're daft enough to run stock firmware.. well, I know many people using these models happily stock, too.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2015, 03:57:14 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 16, 2015, 09:32:09 amDesolder the coupling transformer and coupling capacitor, reinstall the transformer after bending the logic side pins in order to have what was the mains side stand up with the pins facing the Ethernet connector, solder the capacitor in series, and wire it to a common RJ11 socket. I also glued in a piece of scrap aluminum to heatsink the CPU and added a capacitor to the 12V rail.