110VAC vs 220VAC - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: funkyant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 11:05:18 am
content: I am doing some work in Mexico, and was wondering this:Is a 110VAC 30A connector any different to a 220VAC 15A connector?Are the specs for the connector the same with regards to contact surface area and pin size? Any other differences if any?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 11:41:31 am
content: Yes they are different. Contact size and area is current dependent, so the 30A really does have to have a bigger contact area. Additionally, the extra voltage requires extra insulation. So yes, very different.

author: funkyant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 12:46:08 pm
content: So then, why are the American plugs so bad?I've been installing an AV System over here and the plugs are all these thin exposed pins that bend easily. Compared to equivalent Ceeforms they look like rubbish.Afterthought, I guess they have to make the pins flat and thin to get the contact surface area. They are even L shaped to get even more. Wow. 110V really sucks for connectors.If any Mexicans or Americans here can point me to some decent IP rated plugs and inline sockets, similar to a Ceeform that you'd use in an outdoor beach club, I'd like to know. The local 'experts' are only a few steps above twisting 2 wires together, and I'm not a sparky. However I have built many beach clubs around the world, just trying to make sure everything is safe and long lasting and 110V is mostly foreign to me.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 01:08:14 pm
content: ac wall outlets of the world. their are a lot them

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 01:42:22 pm
content: If you can avoid domestic plugs, then go for IEC 60309 connectors.http://www.screwfix.com/p/abb-straight-plug-32a-2p-e-110v-4h-ip44/9047fhttp://www.screwfix.com/p/abb-surface-socket-32a-2p-e-110v-4h-ip67/3532fhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 06:09:53 pm
content: Yea, nobody said 120VAC (Not 110 mind you) was a good idea, it's a stupid thing. The plugs and sockets are not safe, and if you're not careful can cause electrocution. It's not much of a problem in North America, but it exists.At this stage it's too late now, changing over would require over a century's worth of electronics and mains wiring to be changed for an entire continent.European connectors would be superior if you could find one rated for 15A, I don't think the voltage matters as long as it's below the rated voltage, and your within current limitations, but as for native connectors, NEMA is all you're gonna get, so pick your poison off the list of connectors. We DO have some for 240V that should work for 120 (We don't use 230V for high voltage, it's always a multiple of 120), so maybe check those out.Personally I've never had a problem and as long as you're not stupid, it should all be fine.

author: Srbel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 06:26:49 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 31, 2016, 06:09:53 pmHmm. In my country, all of them are 16A rated.

author: funkyant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 06:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on October 31, 2016, 01:42:22 pmThis is just like the Ceeform I mentioned. But I need an inline female socket also.Here is what I would use in other parts of the world:

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 07:15:16 pm
content: Yeah our 15A NEMA connectors are awful in North America. Though the 110V 20A connectors are a little better, you don't see them much. The NEMA 240V connectors seem to be okay aside from being unusually large. Can't really change a century of poor standards for a whole continent. It's what we're stuck with for the duration.You can use better plugs, but then you run into a non-standard situation where if someone else comes along they won't know how to deal with them. Though if it's a matter of safety you don't really have a choice.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 11:31:19 pm
content: I still don't get why everyone says standard 15A US plugs are so crappy. The cheap versions on some random non-conforming Chinese junk product are, but so are their versions for other countries. Only the absolute cheapest crap has blades that easily bend. There's every bit as much separation from the conductive bits as there are on other countries' designs.I see 20A versions all the time. Any slightly larger UPS will need a 20A circuit, not a 15A. Or you go up to a 220V 20A twist lock type. Most hospitals have 120V 20A twist lock outlets for critical equipment, on dedicated circuits with different color sockets for distinguishing them fro other run of the mill outlets. US plugs are no longer like those ones on 20's and 30's vintage equipment where there is an easily cracked Bakelite or rubber piece holding the two blades (no grounding back then) which was barely big enough to keep you hand off the prongs. That old crap - that WAS dangerous. The big molded plugs now are no more dangerous than anyone else's.Mexico - don't even get me started. Land of dodgy wiring, even on new constructions. The crazy stuff I've seen on vacations there - and this is fairly well off tourist areas, I can only imaging what the wiring must be like in less affluent areas of the country. Wire sticking up out of a flower bed connected with wire nuts... and there indeed was a sprinkler system to water the flowers! Exposed wires indoors, in the hotel rooms. Just making sure everything is insulated and protected from casual contact would be a huge improvement, let along fancy locking and waterproof connectors.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 11:34:19 pm
content: Quote from: funkyant on October 31, 2016, 06:43:01 pmCeeform is indeed one common name for IEC 60309..Inline sockets are a standard part.

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 11:44:53 pm
content: Question about USA mains: Is it possible and legal to have a room in the house with 240V/50Hz installation say if someone was going to move over there to carry his test equipment to setup his new home lab?

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 11:56:02 pm
content: Our kettles are slow as molasses too. I often wish for a 2+KW kettle when I want a Earl Grey.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 12:09:55 am
content: Quote from: kxenos on October 31, 2016, 11:44:53 pmPossible? The US power grid runs at 60Hz, but you can combine a couple of 120v circuits to get 240v, or even get a step-up transformer. Commercial frequency converters are available, but I think they cost a few thousand dollars, and the best workaround for a true 240v (You will want 230v) 50Hz power supply is to have an AC-DC converter then a DC-AC inverter from Europe somewhere.There is no illegality to this, and I have a step-up transformer right next to me to power a Commodore 64, but for a full room installation with wall mounted sockets, you're not gonna get any help from your power company unless you're willing to shell out money for them to create a specific 50hz line just for you, difficulty depending on how the grid is in your area.Unless you're running AC motors or other electronics that will not work properly with 60Hz, a step up converter is usually all you need. If you wanna go extreme, you can get a 240v60 circuit in your house by putting two 120v circuits together (as I said) and replacing the sockets, if not cabling if that's not 240v15A rated. If you feel the need, you can also add a 240v13a breaker in line, but that isn't really needed.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 12:22:50 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 31, 2016, 06:09:53 pmBritain managed to do it, changing from BS346 round pin, unfused plugs, to the now standard BS1363 fused, square pin plugs from 1947 onwards in new construction with the majority of replacements in existing construction actually happening in the late 60s/early 70s. Electrically the old round pin and current square pin are similar, the cross sectional area being similar, and are equally rugged, the change was done simply to get a fuse at the wall end of each flex.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 12:23:05 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 31, 2016, 06:09:53 pmYeah, that's a good idea.Using 'standardised' 220/240VAC connectors in a 110/120VAC environment.If that device ever gets into a 220/240VAC environment - let's take bets on what fails first.(Yes - there are 220/240 sites in non-euro countries!)

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 12:25:04 am
content: Replacing all sockets with 240V ones would be too much I guess but having a 170Vdc to 240V/50Hz inverter for a couple of kWatts just for the lab sockets would be ideal.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 12:27:29 am
content: Quote from: kxenos on October 31, 2016, 11:44:53 pmDo you have anything so antique and obsolete that it actuallycareswhat the mains frequency is?Virtually all houses have 240V available in the breaker/distribution box. The basic mains delivery is 240V with grounded center-tap. And "normal" branch circuits use one side or the other for 120V. If you changed the socket type to a 240V style, you could probably take a normal branch circuit and connect it to a dual-breaker for 240V. This is a very common thing for heavy loads like water heaters, HVAC, clothes dryers, stoves and ovens, etc.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 12:30:09 am
content: Most homes in the USA are supplied with 240 V, so it is quite feasible to install some 240 V sockets in a workshop, for example. You just need to run a 240 V circuit from the panel to wherever you need the power. However, this will still be 60 Hz. If you need 50 Hz you either need an electronic inverter or do it the old fashioned way with a motor-generator set.

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 12:40:41 am
content: 50Hz vs 60Hz is not a big deal. Being able to legally have a 240V installation with proper european sockets is my concern. Since there is a proper 240V circuit (I didn't know this) it would be a matter of replacing wall sockets and fixing the wires I guess.Thanks!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 01:30:30 am
content: I'm curious what the service wires coming into a residence looks like in the 230V countries? In a typical US residence, there are three wires entering the residence, 2 hots (line) and 1 neutral (center tapped). A modern residence will have a 200Amp rated panel. The line wires are 120V each relative to neutral (180 degrees out of phase) and 240V relative to each other. 240V loads typically don't use the neutral wire (they might for stove clock circuits, appliance lights, small motors, etc.) They come into a service entrance panel where the neutral is tied to ground (real ground). I don't believe the 230V appliances in european countries, et. al., can work on US 240V, correct?

author: funkyant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 01:45:09 am
content: These are the crappy plugs I'm seeing everywhere here.And I need to run semi-permanent cabling up in the air, between a pool and a beach, exposed to humidity, salt, dustHere's an idea of what we are doing. I need to get power to all those lighting fixtures up in the truss safely, and in a way that it's easy to derig the light fixtures and / or change them around as needed. To clarify, I have requested the electrician to provide 10AWG 3 core flex on 30A breakers at the location. Just trying to find the most efficient termination/ distro method.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 01:52:41 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on November 01, 2016, 12:22:50 amThere are three MASSIVE differences here.Electricity became mainstream ~1900 to the point where there were standards. It's now 2016 so that is over 116 years of working electronics that won't be usable if we change the power gridUK changed plugs, we would be changing plugs AND mains voltageThe US is WAY WAY WAY larger than the UK. We are the third most populous country, and I think the fourth largest in land mass. We are larger than the entire EU, so imagine the EU (plus norway or whatever to even out the balance) changing to 120v60 and having to replace all the outlets and plugs. That would be massively expensive and borderline impossible.

author: funkyant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:04:51 am
content: Just like the metric system huh?The longer you leave it, the harder it is to change.I think the future should be a new global, lower voltage DC standard, which would also be great for local solar panels, etc. And then just using grid mains for heavy loads.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:07:28 am
content: Quote from: steverino on November 01, 2016, 01:30:30 amIt depends on the country. There are different standards everywhere. In a UK home you will generally find live and neutral entering via a service fuse and meter before going to the panel. Live is at 240 V relative to neutral (and earth). Most of the time the supply comes from a three phase transformer with 415 V between phases. The phases are alternated between houses in a street.QuoteYes, they can work fine. I have a 240 V electric kettle running quite happily in my kitchen.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:14:20 am
content: Quote from: steverino on November 01, 2016, 01:30:30 amTypical UK individual residential supply is 100A. Supplied as a live, neutral and seperate earth (i.e. Usually a TN-S earthing system). The neutral will be tied to earth at the substation. The earth wire will be bonded to the supply conduit or armour. It's not normal UK practice to tie earth to neutral at the customer premises switchboard. Supply is nominally (the EU standardised) 230V +/-10%, in practice it's actually normally (the old UK standard) 240V although you might find genuine 230V in a small number of areas.Very large residential premises or block of flats will have three phase + neutral supplies. If it's a single premise, phases will be distributed around the property in such a way that avoid interconnected equipment being connected to different phases (e.g. one phase per floor).Industrial premises, all bets are off. You may find TN-S, TN-C, or TN-C-S. The only thing you will hardly ever find in the UK is a TT supply (i.e Where the earth connection is to physical earth at premises and supply, and there's no protective conductor running with the supply conductors)Quote from: steverino on November 01, 2016, 01:30:30 amIt depends. One would have to look at that on a case by case basis. In principal it could and most likely would. Only equipment that made the (dangerous) assumption that neutral would be at earth potential would pose a problem.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:17:59 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 01, 2016, 12:30:09 amAs I understand it, US household supply is a 'split phase' 120V - which is basically delivered by a centre-tapped transformer. The centre-tap is assigned the neutral role and the end taps are the two actives - which are 180º out of phase. 240V is accessed by wiring up the two actives to your socket. Caution is needed in regards to earthing - because both sides of the 240V supply are above earth potential.In Australia, we have three phase available to the vast majority of households. Local street transformers will supply several homes and you will find four wires running from pole to pole - 3 actives and an earth referenced neutral. Houses are wired up with 1, 2 or all 3 phases, depending on their requirements - and the 1 or 2 phase supplied homes are wired to provide some sort of phase load balancing. You can always tell which is the neutral in the street ... because EVERY house will have a connection to it.230V or 240V isn't going to be a problem in itself. Equipment will often handle voltages higher than these nominal values - and still function at voltages lower. What really matters is the local regulation of your electricity supply. Voltages go up and down all the time and it's the job of the electricity supplier to maintain these within specified limits. This process occurs at a number of levels - from country sized areas to a part of a suburb. (This is a job in itself! There's a video around about the 'TV pickup' load when the TV show 'Eastenders' finishes in the UK.)Also, the 50Hz/60Hz question isn't one I would be too worried about. If you are running SMPS power supplies it won't matter at all. You could give them DC and they will work OK. Transformers designed for 50Hz will provide a slightly higher impedance at 60Hz and, thus, a slightly less current, but the higher frequency will mean better energy transfer. I can't see there being much of a problem - but I will defer an authoritative opinion on that subject to those with the expertise.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:22:20 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 01, 2016, 12:27:29 amWahl hair clippers are somehow mechanically tuned to the mains frequency, they care a lot.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:27:22 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on November 01, 2016, 02:22:20 amI did not know that.As for mechanical devices that are specifically tied to the frequency - such as induction motors - you would need to assess the potential impact.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:31:54 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 01, 2016, 02:27:22 amI not only don't (edit) own a pair of hair clippers, I don't think I have even seen a pair outside of a barber shop.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:35:00 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on November 01, 2016, 02:31:54 amJust try an electric razor or shaver. Surely many people own one of those? One of first things I found when I took an electric razor on a trip to the USA was that it didn't work so well over there.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:45:50 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on November 01, 2016, 01:52:41 amI don't think anyone was suggesting changing voltage, just the nasty plugs. The number of plugs and sockets to be changed is only going to be proportional to population. Anyway, the claim was essentially that it's 'too hard to do' and my point was merely "it has been done at least once".The US population is only just under 5 times the UKs, "WAY WAY WAY" bigger is a bit of an exaggeration. You aren't a Texan by any chance, we know how they love to exaggerate.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:50:17 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on November 01, 2016, 02:45:50 amIt's probably just because simple decimal math confuses them.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:52:45 am
content: Quote from: kxenos on October 31, 2016, 11:44:53 pmYes, and yes. In fact some places wouldn't even require any rewiring. For example, most kitchen outlets in the USA & Canada (new builds) have two phases, the upper outlet is on P1, the lower on P2, the P1-P2 voltage would be 240V (@ 60Hz).There is a NEMA 240 volt plug (NEMA 6-15), it looks very similar to the 110, except the pins are horizontal not verticalGet the electrician to run 12/3 (Live + Live + Neutral) + ground) off opposing phases, and hook a few outlets up using NEMA 6-15 outlets, done and done

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:55:57 am
content: Quote from: funkyant on November 01, 2016, 01:45:09 amThey are flimsy, nasty things, I've had the unfortunate displeasure of them.Find a supplier of 60309s, they're pricy out that way, but they're there, inline sockets are standard items.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 05:13:58 am
content: They look like a twist lock system.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 05:15:24 am
content: They are, and not a good one.

author: batteksystem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 07:14:49 am
content: Quote from: funkyant on November 01, 2016, 02:04:51 amWe will probably argue on what voltage the DC standard will use again, 24V or 48V?

author: funkyant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 10:22:51 am
content: Wow guys, this post about 110V connectors really derailed.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 10:54:34 am
content: Quote from: funkyant on October 31, 2016, 06:43:01 pmThose are IEC 60309 connectors. Blue denotes 230V and will not mate with the 110V connectors. Yellow connectors denote 110V and are also available in in-line format. It's an international standard so hopefully should be available in the US. If not it should be easy to order them from Europe, where they're widely available.http://www.screwfix.com/p/abb-connector-32a-2p-e-110v-4h-ip44/5422fQuoteI've never seen that before. It appears to be compatible with the IEC 60309 but doesn't fully conform to the standard. The position of the earth pin seems to indicate it's compatible with a 230V connector but it's black which indicates 500V.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 01:08:26 pm
content: It is clearly possible for the 110V countries to change, and the split phase 110/220 system makes it simple to do so. It won't happen because most people don't want it, what they have is good enough and works well enough for them. An outline of how it might happen if there was the motivation for it:One might start by designing a new outlet that is backwards-compatible with existing 110V connectors but also provides 220V on separate pins (ideally in a way compatible with some existing non-terrible 220-240V connector, and definitely with the europlug as a minimum). It's use might be mandatory in new buildings or encouraged in some other way. It should be subsidised* if necessary to bring it's price down to a level similar to existing outlets so that it is the default choice for replacements - if it costs the same, is backwards compatible and future proof, people will use it.Once they become sufficiently common appliance manufacturers will start to take advantage of it, supplying high-power devices previously unavailable in the 110V world and speeding adoption. It will become the connector of choice for devices in the 1.5 to 3.5 kW range that might otherwise need dedicated circuits. After 20 years it could be made mandatory that new appliances use the 220V pins, perhaps gradually by starting with devices for which it is simple or where 110V has always been problematic. In the meantime the small gadget market (phone chargers, etc) has already been flooded with universal 90-250V adaptors with europlugs because the lowest cost option for the manufacturers is to sell the same thing everywhere.After 50 years nearly all 110V appliances will have died a natural death or be obsolete and it will be common to find the new outlets without the 110V pins connected. Within 100 years 110V supply to most premises would cease and in most places 240V/415V three phase will be replacing split phase distribution without the end-users noticing or caring. The advantages of fewer, larger transformers, three phase LV distribution would drive this from the utility perspective and the more widely space transformers would drive the MV distribution voltage up to European levels.*By whoever it is that thinks it's worth the change.The reality is that 110V isn'tquitecrap enough to make it happen.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 01:15:08 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 01, 2016, 01:08:26 pm... and if they really want 240V, they can get it as things are.

author: funkyant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 01:35:24 pm
content: QuoteI've never seen that before. It appears to be compatible with the IEC 60309 but doesn't fully conform to the standard. The position of the earth pin seems to indicate it's compatible with a 230V connector but it's black which indicates 500V.These are common in the entertainment industry where we try to make things look inconspicuous.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 01:53:49 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 01, 2016, 01:08:26 pmNot that easy to do so with a Delta system without corner-grounded systems and then you lose the 208V wild leg. Unless you know of something different?

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:15:02 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on November 01, 2016, 01:53:49 pmAgreed, although I was under the impression most domestic other than apartment buildings was 110/220 split phase rather than 110/208 delta. Using the simple method means that your new 240V standard might sometimes be 208 which is a wider range than is really desirable. A likely path would be as described where possible but it would be naive to think it can be done everywhere without swapping out transformers, etc. I don't really like high leg deltas but you'd probably seem more of them during the hypothetical switch-over period.Part of the problem of converting somewhere like the USA is that there are so many varied and incompatible systems, a hundred years of workarounds to the problems a low nominal voltage and a default split-phase system with no rotational component. Few other places in the world use split single phase, three-phase star, corner grounded delta and high leg delta, or have (consequently) so many different supply voltages in common use (120 208, 240, 277, 480, +347/600 in Canada).For comparison in Brazil parts of the country are 110V other parts are 220V and they use the same connectors for both. People blow up appliances occasionally but it's not the huge disaster you might expect.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:30:16 pm
content: Is the delta diagram for US. Either you corner ground the L2 to supply your neutral, or you double the voltage to 480 L-L. Doubling the voltage would be interestingI don't know if there are uses for 208V nowadays. 277/480 is for industrial, obviously, with 277V for lighting.

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:41:03 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 01, 2016, 02:50:17 amI AM A TEXAN AND GOOD AT DECIMALS!!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: grifftech on November 01, 2016, 02:41:03 pmOh yeah, they're really loud, too. Must forgive them, they don't know any better..

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 02:43:18 pm
content: And it's that domestic/industrial split that only really exists on 110V systems (which I know are usually really 120V but colloquially 110V).In Europe and most of the 220-240V world you have 230V phase-neutral and 400V phase-phase and that's the same in domestic and industrial uses. A UK domestic supply might be 60-100A at 230V single phase, a German domestic supply perhaps all three phases at 30A each, a small industrial unit might be three phases from the same system at 100A each, a larger building or or industrial site might be 400A or 800A per phase but still 230V-phase to neutral. Industrial buildings might well share transformers with nearby houses, and offices and lighting in factories don't need separate transformers from the machinery. And that's pretty much it until you get to sites large enough to be fed at 11kV (between phases) and those will just have a few 11kV:230/400V transformers scattered around, with possibly some very large motors direct on the 11kV.

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 03:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 01, 2016, 02:42:48 pmsorry, I was just angry.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 03:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: grifftech on November 01, 2016, 03:11:57 pmDon't be angry, just messing with you.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 03:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on November 01, 2016, 02:30:16 pmA lot of data centers run on 208V. One (small) data center I used to work at was all 208V in the server rooms except the air handlers that ran on 480.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 03:28:18 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 01, 2016, 03:12:47 pmYeah, if a bit of gentle ribbing from a couple of Brits gets you wound up, never, never, talk to an Aussie bloke. We call it "taking the mickey", they call it "ripping the piss". And then there's the Aussie women...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 03:42:15 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 01, 2016, 03:25:23 pmI think that's purely because they can't get a proper voltage.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 03:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 01, 2016, 03:42:15 pmPerhaps, or to help even the load on the windings.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 05:11:12 pm
content: How is 3-phase equipent connected to protecive earth? Seems to be some interesting currents flowing in a fault condition with a grounded center tapping / neutral?

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 05:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 01, 2016, 02:50:17 amYou're looking at the state that managed to produce the WORST calculators in the world. Their line of calculators has less features for more than companies like HP, that currently sells (Or if not sold) a calculator (HP-50G) for half the price of the Ti-83, had a 75Mhz ARM processor vs a much slower 8Mhz Z80, and had an onboard software system that WIPED THE BLOODY FLOOR with Ti. Features like solving systems of linear equations, general equation solving, graphing, and function tables are WAY easier to access on an HP calculator. It also comes with an SD card, IR port, RS-232 (through adapter) and USB, meaning there isn't a device that exists you CAN'T interface this with (joking) while when you boot up a Ti-83 you get met with less information than a VIC-20Either way I guess if you do a double standard you could change it over to 240, but not 230 unless the US changes to 115VAC nominal. And not to mention you're also looking at the country that is one of only three in the world to not use the System Internationale (we still use our very slightly different customary system, same in every way to Imperial except every liquid unit is slightly different)We'd also never truly cross over since people still use 120V items from the 40s and 50s to this day. There is no magic time when people just stop using electronics.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 06:01:42 pm
content: A 3-phase powered device would be connected to a grounding system as usual, i.e. the metal housing. Don't worry about the grounded neutral tap of the secondary. Without it you'd have an isolation transformer.

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 06:20:17 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on November 01, 2016, 05:52:15 pmAnd Proud Of It!Sorry, couldn't resist it. I'm in Canada and I can work in either system.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 07:23:10 pm
content: Almost all telephone exchanges here run on -48v DC supplied from battery banks that are trickle charged from the mains.My house is has 240V, 400A single-phase AC service.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 07:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on November 01, 2016, 07:23:10 pm400A? I think even Andy would be jealous

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 07:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on November 01, 2016, 07:33:42 pmAmericans use a LOT of power.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 08:34:03 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on November 01, 2016, 07:23:10 pmAre you sure it's 240vac single-phase service? I suspect like me you have 240/120 split-phase service. The two 120Vac busses on your breaker panel are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, the 240VAC is of course single-phase. The transformer you are being fed from is supplying you with a center-tapped secondary service.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 09:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on November 01, 2016, 07:40:46 pmIn my case I have a big house with three separate air conditioning zones, plus multiple 240v water pumps for the wells.

author: necessaryevil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 09:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: funkyant on October 31, 2016, 12:46:08 pmWhy do you think they are bad?I think some of them are bad too but I'm interested in your arguments. I recently was in the USA and I noted some plugs just fall out of the socket. Originally, I blamed my travel adapter, but the clothes iron in the hotel had the same problem. Multiple plugs, multiple sockets had this problem, but not all of them. Lack of a standard for the pin spacing? Or maybe more than one standard (which is the same problem if you think about it)?Another interesting thing amongst voltagesJapan: 100v~Americas: mostly 110-120V~ (220-240V split phase, 190-207V~ three phase)Various : 127V~ (220v three phase)The question is, will all Japanese equipment also work on 127v~ and vice versa? I know some (most?) of the equipment is exchangable, but is all? A 27% overvoltage seems much.Interesting fact (not verified/no official source): the 50Hz is about the worst frequency for the human heart. Even the little higher 60 Hz US frequency is already safer.and to answer the question:Higher voltage ---> better isolation required (in theory, in real life it won't make much difference for 115v or 230v)Higher current ---> thicker cables or better conductorsGenerally speaking: higher voltage is cheaper, for the same power a lower current is required and therefore thinner cables can be used. A higher voltage does not make much difference up to a certain point - at some point thicker isolation will be required. And maybe the risk for electrocution is a bit higher.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 09:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: necessaryevil on November 01, 2016, 09:10:24 pmI think the Japaneese to American stuff really depends. Normally that wouldn't be that big of a deal, but I can see it upsetting some stuff.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 10:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: necessaryevil on November 01, 2016, 09:10:24 pmI think this happens if the springs in the socket become weak and no longer grip the plug. It could happen due to poor quality materials of construction in the socket, and possibly made worse by overheating from poor contact resistance. If the metal gets too hot it loses its springiness.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 10:55:35 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 01, 2016, 06:01:42 pmSo they don't supply the 3-phase 240V shown in the diagram to houses? Just the 120-0-120? Do they have a separate 3-phase supply for those who uses 3-phase? I can't see the combination of a grounded center tap and a separate PE to make sense in the same house?

author: WA1ICI
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 11:01:28 pm
content: There are several grades of American sockets, ranging from the cheapest possible that still meet UL code up to very solid, reliable ones, such as for corrosive environments and hospitals. Unfortunately, most contractors use the cheapest ones. In places like hotels where they get a lot of use, the contact springs get worn out, and really should be replaced. Higher-grade sockets are quite reliable.Getting back to the original poster's situation, due to being outdoors and near the ocean, some kind of O-ring sealed connectors should be used.The twist-lock connectors (originally called Hubbell connectors, from their first manufacturer) are just fine in an indoor environment.- John Atwood

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 11:05:05 pm
content: Amateur Radio Operators in the USA are allowed a maximum output power of 1500 watts.This is really pushing the 120v system pretty hard,so it is quite common for "Hams" to have 240v split phase sockets in their "shacks" to power Linear Amplifiers.Obviously Amplifiers designed for such service are pretty much compatible with the 230v nominal single phase system used elsewhere in the world.One "trap for young players" is that capacitors used between each "hot" connector & Earth in Mains filters for the split phase system may be adequately rated for the 120v they will normally experience,but not for the single phase system,where one set of capacitors will have virtually no voltage across it,whereas the other will have the full 230v.Note that in Oz,that "nominal" 230v will in most cases be closer to 240v,or sometimes 250v.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 01:00:12 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 01, 2016, 11:05:05 pmNothing strange about that. It's the same i Europe due to tolerances.What are the differences between 220VAC, 230VAC and 240VAC Mains Supplies and what voltage equipment should I use?For many years, mainland Western Europe has used a mains electricity supply rated at nominally 220VAC 50Hz. The UK used 240VAC 50Hz.Currently, ALL Western European supplies are classified 230VAC. In reality there is no 230VAC supply unless you create one locally. 230VAC was a “standard” created during European "harmonisation" to give a single voltage standard across Western Europe, including UK and Irish Republic.Although the ideal would have been to have a single voltage there were too many political, financial and technical obstacles to reduce UK voltage to European levels or to increase European voltage to UK levels, so a new standard was created to cover both. This was achieved by changing the tolerances of previously existing supply standards. UK voltage to 240VAC + 6% and - 10% and European to 220VAC +10% and -6% (thereby creating a manageable overlap) and we would call these two combined 230VAC, despite the fact that nobody was intentionally generating at 230VAC!Depending on the voltage sensitivity of the product and the variance from nominal of the actual supplied voltage, it may not be advisable to use a 220VAC specific device in the UK or a 240VAC specific device in Mainland Europe etc. For instance a 240VAC supply can rise to as high as 254.4VAC and still be within tolerance, but the maximum rated voltage for a 220VAC product is only 242VAC. A 220VAC supply can drop as low as 206.8 within tolerance but the minimum rated voltage for correct operation of a 240VAC product is 216VAC It may work perfectly well either way but it could be, technically, outside the specification of the equipment with obvious implications. A 230VAC product must be compatible with all voltages across this rangeIf a product is to be used in the UK a 240VAC rated device is ideal but either 240VAC or 230VAC products can be used with confidence.If a product is to be used in mainland Europe or Irish Republic a 220VAC rated device is ideal but either 220VAC or 230VAC products can be used with confidence.http://www.schneider-electric.co.uk/en/faqs/FA144717/

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 05:12:22 am
content: I always look back at the standardisation of Australia's power from 240V to 230V.They didn't need to change a thing in the field - it was all done by magic.....Old:240V+6%-10%New:230V+10%-6%

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 11:12:51 am
content: Quote from: tronde on November 01, 2016, 10:55:35 pmYes, homes and small businesses got usually split-phase via a pole transformer nearby. Please seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_powerandhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_deltafor more details. The typical 3-phase got 208 V between the phases (legs) and 120 V between each phase (leg) and neutral. The high-leg delta with 240 V between the phases (as in the diagram) is an older system, but I got no idea how widely it is still used. Maybe someone from the US can chime in.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 11:15:25 am
content: Quote from: kxenos on November 01, 2016, 12:25:04 amDon´t see the need of an inverter....I lived 3,5 years in USA, and moved all my equipment over. One week later after getting the apartment, I went to the mainbox with my Fluke DMM. Found the 240V there. I installed a cable running under the carpetfloor of the opposite phase from the one in my (new) lab room. Yes I got 240V/60Hz there, but ops I needed to isolate a RDC to get the system working. I never had a problem with the +10Hz delta in 3,5 years.Few points:1) write alle your mods down on a piece of paper and leave it in the mainbox... one day you will thank yourself.2) If there is a fire due to some electricity business and they find out you modify the system, well that´s a nasty stuff to deal with.I have a lot of US plugs and cables left in my basement here in Germany, do you need those? PM me.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 11:26:11 am
content: Quote from: madires on November 02, 2016, 11:12:51 amSeems like the High-leg delta is even worse than the IT-system most of Norway use regarding a short / leak to ground. With one defined ground (center tapping) and a posisble leak form one leg you will have many paths for the current to travel around. That's what puzzles me.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 11:45:11 am
content: Quote from: tronde on November 02, 2016, 11:26:11 amI'm not following the logic how that's different? Delta and Wye systems are still grounded and the Earth has God knows how many paths.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 12:29:46 pm
content: Quote from: tronde on November 02, 2016, 11:26:11 amI don't see any problem as long as there's a proper ground/PE. I'd be more concerened about the load distribution across all 3 phases.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 05:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on November 01, 2016, 01:52:41 amIn the 1960's Cambridge where I was living had 240 volt 50HZ and 240 or 120 volt DC supply depending on where you were in Cambridge they changed over to 250 AC street by street converting equipment as they went. The DC at the time was from big rotary converters which had been installed in what originally was the local generating house sometime in the 1930's or 1940's when the grid came to town after the colleges stopped the barges bringing coal to the power station.

author: funkyant
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 06:13:59 pm
content: Quote from: WA1ICI on November 01, 2016, 11:01:28 pmThanks John. I am trying to find a local supplier with something like this now.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 11:41:03 pm
content: Never really had issues with the sockets/plugs here in Canada, I presume they are the same in the US. We have big ones like Europe for 240v appliances (usually clothes dryer and stoves) but 120v ones are smaller and less bulky.There are all sorts of other plugs like twistlock as well, those are typically used for server equipment. Typcially the UPS will have twistlock plugs and the PDUs will be twist lock. Some are rated at like 30 amps. I think they support 120v and 240, but there are different twist lock standards so they can't be mixed up.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 04:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on November 01, 2016, 05:52:15 pmI really like my HP50g however despite a processor which is 150 times faster (4 to 32 bits, 4 MHz to 75 MHz) than the HP48g, it has an order of magnitude higher latency which is really annoying. As a practical matter when using it as a calculator, that makes it it feel an order of magnitude slower. I suspect this is related to why the wake up alarm is unreliable.It is too bad that the HP calculators did not move follow the test and measurement division to Keysight. They seem to have been abandonded years ago which makes sense since HP outsouced so much of the design work. These days "HP" is just short for "junk".QuoteI think the safety concerns are exaggerated since the standard household voltage is 120VAC instead of 240VAC.The one change I have seen at the state level (the feds do not really have any authority over this) is requiring the sockets to be installed upside down so the ground pin is at the top preventing something which is dropped behind the plug from resting on neutral and hot.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 05:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: funkyant on November 02, 2016, 06:13:59 pmCheck the boat stores. "Shore power connectors"

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 05:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 03, 2016, 04:59:04 pmNice idea, but it then becomes incompatible with flat, right-angle plugs like the ones on refrigerators:If the outlet is inverted, the cord trails up the wall, then hangs down pulling the plug out.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 05:16:04 pm
content: Quote from: helius on November 03, 2016, 05:09:39 pmSo they can fit the plugs the right way around instead.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 05:18:49 pm
content: Quote from: helius on November 03, 2016, 05:09:39 pmthen clip the leads and get a re-wireable connector. For decades in the UK you didn't even get connectors with most appliances, you had to buy a pack of plugs like you would lightbulbs and screw it in. They make such thing in the US and you can just switch around the connector for two dollars fifty and five minutes if your time.My ultimate idea was to get a large import of Shucko plugs/connectors from Germany (or another Shucko using nation) and rewiring an entire American house, plugs and all, to use Shucko. It would be hilarious to see friends come over and wonder why you don't have a single bloody US plug, bonus points if they are an engineer.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 05:30:44 pm
content: Quote from: helius on November 03, 2016, 05:09:39 pmI agree. We have morons for politicians.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 05:42:05 pm
content: That is the problem with ground pin up on NEMA 15A wall outlets. It's not a problem to install the outlets like that, but then the wire coming out of the flat plugs goes the wrong way. I recently moved and the new place had a couple wall outlets installed ground pin up. Had to change them back to ground pin down so I could use flat plugs on them.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 06:02:48 pm
content: Yes, the ones with earth-up do exist (as do others that point sideways, or even rotate through 360°). But the cord on an appliance is permanently attached (or very nearly so). Cutting it off and splicing in one of the "right way up" cords would void any warranty.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 06:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: helius on November 03, 2016, 06:02:48 pmMaybe in countries without basic consumer rights. It's a damn plug.The problem is not putting the sockets the right way up, it's the appliances putting the plugs on upside down.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 06:39:36 pm
content: In the USA the molded plugs on cables are neat and compact, whereas the plugs you buy to install on your own cables are big and clunky. Nobody will want to replace one with the other.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 06:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 03, 2016, 06:39:36 pmSo use an extension or replace the cable. Or put that one socket the wrong way up, I guess. :/Sadly I have experienced the rewirable plugs over there, and they do indeed suck a lot.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 10:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 03, 2016, 06:40:49 pmThe solution is simple... For the fridge, just install the socket right way up... Its behind the refrigerator, so it's not like there's much concern of the plug coming part way out and a metal object falling on it, right?Failing that, you can buy a flat, upside down cord with bare wires on one end. They're designed specifically for appliances. (I've never seen a stove, fridge or fixture microwave that *didn't* have a removable cord! Usually, you unscrew a panel on the back, looses the screws to the cable clamp and then unscrew the cord's wires from a terminal block. (I've also seen cords with crimped QC connectors as well.)

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 11:50:57 pm
content: Quote from: timb on November 03, 2016, 10:50:46 pmThat's the kind of place that a plug works loose and doesn't get spotted. Then you knock a knife down behind the 'fridge and think, "I'll get thatafterdinner" and promptly forget about it. A few days later...As it is, this goes back to what a POS the NEMA plug design is. In any civilised country this problem has been spotted and the first part of the pins have been sheathed. That's the current design in most of Europe, the UK, Brazil, Aus. etc.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2016, 12:55:22 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on November 03, 2016, 11:50:57 pmI suppose this could happen. But it is way, way down on my worry list. I have never had a plug come out of a quality socket that wasn't under physical duress (like a portable chain saw at the end of an extension cord). I have never had a plug loose in even a cheap socket that doesn't get lots of insertion/removal cycles or has been grossly abused with overcurrent. I tend to plug and unplug refrigerators on a cycle measured in decades, so the chance of this plug working loose is minuscule. And I don't store knives on the top-back of a refrigerator, so there are at least two layers of protection from this horrible event.One the other hand, no one seems to worry about the poster who ran his quality Euro equipment in the US by running the other half of the split phase under the carpet.. That should be a Bozo no no, regardless of what frequency and voltage you are running, and no matter what kind of connectors you put on the end.All of the systems in the advanced industrial countries work pretty darned well. The all have strengths and weaknesses. It would be nice if we were all on the same standard, but other than parochial comfort with the home system there is really no compelling reason for anyone to adopt a particular standard. It won't happen until some standard becomes a sufficiently larger market than the others that it becomes economically compelling. The long time it is taking the US to switch to SI shows how a large enough market can resist that pressure for quite some time.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2016, 03:08:19 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 04, 2016, 12:55:22 amOne place I lived was not wired for 240 to the dryer presumably because the house had gas but there were two separate 120 circuits so we made sure the phase was reversed on one and plugged the dryer into both with hot and neutral going to one socket and the other hot going to the other socket.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2016, 03:18:46 pm
content: Try some neutrick powercon true1 connectors.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2016, 04:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on November 03, 2016, 11:50:57 pmI have to agree with CatalinaWOW here... Unless the fridge gets moved quite a lot or the install is so bad that it creates continuous sparks that will destroy the contacts, this is a red herring, even for the upside down scenario.Quote from: Cerebus on November 03, 2016, 11:50:57 pmI see this as a consequence of being one of the early adopters of this newfangled "electricity" stuff. Changing this comes with a lot of cost and it is very impopular - IMHO the plugs are not that crappy anyways.That may be because I come from Brazil, which changed the plug standards only about 5~6 years ago at a high cost and with a lot of pushback from the general population, used to a "free for all" style of electrical connections.Even still, not only the vast majority of houses do not have a proper earth (despite having the three pronged outlets as dictated by the current regulations) but people tend to find ways to circumvent this

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2016, 05:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2016, 04:42:34 pmThat's Apple's next line of products.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2016, 07:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 04, 2016, 03:08:19 pmI am not totally against re-combining the split this way - if you know what you are doing. But I can't imagine a safe way to run power under the carpet. Any wire/cable durable enough to withstand walking and furniture and the like will be bulky enough to create a tripping hazard.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 04:09:08 pm
content: Whenever I move to a new place it seems I always have some need to run a wire across the floor, usually it's the cable TV service. I use a cable management product that works well for that. I get it from the local hardware store,here's a link. Does a good job of securing wires or cables and eliminates any hazard.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 04:52:39 pm
content: Also sockets in the US are graded. Many houses use the cheapest kind. But for high use areas I always replaced them with commercial or NoS hospital grade (green dot).Those sockets last a very long time, make excellent contact and hold on tight.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 11:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 04, 2016, 07:19:20 pmThe "Hams" I mentioned earlier either know enough to install a 240v socket "to code",or they employ a Licenced Electrician.After all,if you have spent "big bucks" on your gear,a bit more for a proper 240v service is not going to increase the total that much.It is in the "sparkies" interest to do it correctly--after all,it's his licence on the line if things go "pear shaped".

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 03:27:38 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on November 05, 2016, 04:52:39 pmsometimes too tight.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 03:37:06 pm
content: "commercial" or "industrial" grades are not defined by regulations, but Hospital Grade and Federal Spec are.http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2005/01/16/receptacle-grades-what-do-they-mean/Hospital Grade is tested for plug retention when the cable is pulled, which means they do grip very tightly. Fed Spec is similar quality but without that requirement.

author: ayal
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 05, 2016, 08:46:43 am
content: I think this is a problem left over by history.And now in most countries, sockets are universal designed for all the plugs. More and more manufacturers begin to produce wide voltage electric appliances like laptop.Maybe the difference between 110VAC and 220VAC will be gradually ignored by the average person.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2016, 03:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: ayal on December 05, 2016, 08:46:43 amNo, no they're not, because universal sockets are dangerous, unreliable trash.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 07:06:45 am
content: Judging from the way the ATF has dived into the Oakland Warehouse / Rave fire with electrical engineers - one could deduce that they believe the cause of the fire was electrical (I assume it is easy to tell due to arc temperatures being excessive - leaving signs on metallic items).They originally suspected a refrigerator - but now say it wasn't the cause of the fire but was very near where the fire originated. They are still focused on electricity being the cause.36 people died in that fire. Potentially because of a bad extension cord or a bad plug at the end of the extension cord. 110V is by far as dangerous as 220V. It is as much of a compromise as 220V is - trading the risk of electrocution for a real fire danger.Whomever rented property in the US surely experienced at least once - those bad sockets with aging contacts that would sometimes spark - those could indeed kill - please replace them (and IMHO - "splurge" on industrial or hospital grade - your life must be worth a buck or two...).

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 12:44:08 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on December 13, 2016, 07:06:45 amBeing related to an Electrical Engineer who does fire forensic investigation, I'm continually amazed at how accurately these guys can pinpoint the location in what is left of a smouldering heap of building. It's "simple" investigative deduction, but man I find it fascinating.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 09:26:25 pm
content: While the evidence points to an electrical origin, I can't believe this fire has any bearing on an argument over 110 vs 220. This place wasn't complying with any safety codes, occupancy, exits, access, you name it. I am sure that they were butchering the electrical installation also, and would have done so whichever voltage was used.No electrical system which can do useful work is inherently safe.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 07:29:42 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 13, 2016, 09:26:25 pmWell - that depends - you are right that following the NEC would mean this would"probably"not happen. I say probably because my guess would be that this would not have happened by a fault in the wiring board but by an extension cord (hence started near the refrigerator). Had they respected the maximum amperage (or wattage) and replaced old cords - this could have probably been avoided. Had the place been a steel and concrete loft not filled with rubbish and wood kindling - and had they had well marked fire escapes - things would also have been better (perhaps still had a fire - but less than 36 dead...).You are right 220v isn't inherently "safe". I assume that these "artists" - being as careless as they seem to have been - would have electrocuted themselves. But after 1 electrocuted artist - they would have replaced the aging wiring. Perhaps the life of 35 others would have been spared.BTW - I am talking current... Wattage is always a hazard. A 1500W heater with people drying cloths on it is dangerous at whatever voltage you have. But at 110v the wiring to the 1500W heater are more of a fire hazard than at 220v. At 220v the same wiring is more of an electrocution hazard.It is a tradeoff... Having a well lighted fire escape does not make 110v less of a fire hazard - it just makes the risk tolerable.BTW - All my electrical engineering friends (from Israel or Europe) - when the end up for some time in the states - are absolutely perturbed at the fact that all electrical installations are completely opposite standard European practices . E.g. steel vs. plastic boxes (there is apprehension to even touch the metallic box! - what if it is live?), steel vs. plastic conduits, those big-ass circuit breakers vs. thin elegant European ones, the thick wiring, the 'buzz' you get from light fixtures (hate those), the lack of residual current breakers, really big screws (vs tiny ones) on outlets and in junction boxes etc. At that point we usually talk and I end up explaining Ohms law and the risks due to voltage vs. current and just who SquareD and Lutron and Hubbel are....

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 08:41:27 am
content: Quote from: Assafl on December 15, 2016, 07:29:42 amIn Australia we use steel wall boxes and steel conduit where it is warranted. If it's live then you have a fault. Simple. Plastic is not inherently safer just because it's non-conductive.If you don't check things are not live before you go barreling in then you'd better hope you have good RCDs or an on-the-ball guardian angel because at some point you'll cop a belt and do the funky dance.I don't think for a second the fire bought into the 110 vs 220 argument. I thought that was brought up in the spirit of talking about electrical fires and the resulting investigations. I can assure you 220V has just as much chance at burning your house down as 110V.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 04:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on December 15, 2016, 07:29:42 amIf it helps, I share the same kind of discomfort when I am in Europe and looking at European practices. It is really hard to dispassionately evaluate something that is different than what is engrained in your life experience.As best as I can tell there are no compelling overall advantages for one system over the other. If there were, there would no longer be two systems. They each have advantages in specific use cases. While the possibility remains that one or the other system is slightly better than the other overall, it hardly seems worth the brainpower to figure out. There are more important problems to solve.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 05:51:54 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on December 15, 2016, 08:41:27 amI'm no NEC expert but based on my experience installing battery based PV systems, I believe here in the US, metal conduit and boxes are required indoors for DC wiring and not for any 110/120V AC wiring (not sure about the 240V AC). I believe the rational is DC's ability to sustain an arc and hence increased risk of fire. Grounding of the metal is very closely inspected - for good reason.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 06:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on December 15, 2016, 08:41:27 amCan't refer to Australia. Visited twice for 6 days total. I've lived 15 years total in the US and over 30 in Israel so had to live with both voltages and make sense of both electrical codes and why they were so freaking different.I tried to find substantiating information - and other than hearsay - it doesn't seem to exist. Overall fires are a very rare way to die - and of electrical related fire - one in 100,000 people. So it isn't a popular research topic. Even if in the US the numbers are about double the European numbers (about 1.3 vs 0.4-0.7 people per 100,000) - it is a moot point.I still think it is unreasonable to treat 110V and 220V as equal. For me - when I think US - I think 60% fire, 40% electrocution risks. Europe - 40% fire hazard; 60% electrocution hazard.If you were to wire an 1800W cooktop in the US (the maximum possible for a residential 15A circuit) - you'd be wise to use thick low AWG wire, torque down the screw well (or use the barrel connectors), use commercial grade plugs and sockets, etc. Over time I learned to dump the thin gauge extension cords and cheap splitters and "residential quality" sockets.If you are in a 220V area, insulate well, use louvered sockets use adequate cable (but not the thick US stuff) and use ample screw tension in the connection block (or better - crimp). Use thick insulation.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 06:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 15, 2016, 04:53:43 pmActually this IS the point. There are advantages to both. If one wanted the best of both worlds - it would be to create a 170V system. Which perhaps - may not be the best of both worlds - but may be the worst (both a fire and an electrocution hazard).110V and 220V are exclusive in their safety designs - and thus shall be treated. True that for some people (idiots) - like my landlord in Los Angeles - a very nice guy - 110v would be tested with his finger. And Europeans burn themselves down.]But the electric codes reflect the inherent risks in each system. Telling people that "mains is dangerous" is okay - for people who won't mess with mains. Telling people who will the same - is ridiculous.There are threads on Home-Barista of people thinking about converting an espresso machine between 110V to 220V. Worse - there are Italians making the conversion not realizing that their 9A machine is now a fire hazard - the "funniest" I saw was a $5k machine with a deformed fuse box - they couldn't get their 15A fuse to work (it would blow) so the Italian vendor swapped it with a slo-blo 15A which lasted a day. Poor IEC socket/fuse box became deformed. The boiler heater took 18A.... The first tip there is don't do it. But if you must here is what you MUST think of. And get an electrician to do the actual work....

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 06:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on December 15, 2016, 06:10:08 pmThat may come down more to building materials than anything else. In my limited samples observed in various European countries, coustruction was almost completely masonry. There appeared to a great many more options for different "building blocks", many the color of red clay which suggest they are like bricks. vs. here in the US, it is predominately "stick" (timber) framing with various sheet-goods covering the interior and exterior surfaces. The buildings in Europe appeared to be much less flammable than what we are living in over here.OTOH, the distribution of utility electricity in "developing countries" is quite breath-taking to many of us.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 07:55:38 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 15, 2016, 06:35:57 pmYes, that is absolutely true. Of course they used to build mostly with wood there - centuries ago. But eventually fires or rot destroyed those structures and deforestation meant building with stone made more sense. It's more labor intensive to build with stone but if done right it does last for centuries (barring major earthquakes or war damage!) versus the decades that typical wood construction lasts. The easy of availability of structurally sound timber species in North America has meant wood is the logical choice for construction of most small structures - fire risk be damned.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 06:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on December 13, 2016, 07:06:45 amYeah that happened to me. Years ago I was living in a rental unit and one of the outlets in the kitchen blew up in a hail of arcing in and cracking. Couldn't believe it, nothing was even plugged into it. Don't understand why the breaker didn't pop, but it didn't. Fortunately no fire resulted.I just bought a new multi-function printer, it's a big sucker, weights like 60 pounds. Can't believe how much power it draws when the heaters for the four toner cartridges kick in, all the lights in my office dim. Having a 220V supply would be really beneficial for that beast. The sticker on the back says 1500W so it's taking that 110 to the limit. It's a really nice unit though, happy with it even though it momentarily draws more power than a microwave oven.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 08:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: CraigHB on December 29, 2016, 06:38:52 pmFor a 120VAC system, the best that can usually be done is to put the printer on a separate circuit which goes directly to the circuit panel.Laser printer fusors draw large amounts of power so they can can heat up to working temperature from idle as quickly as possible. Otherwise the user would have to wait longer for the printer to start.240VAC would be advantageous over 120VAC in this case because either the printer could start earlier or the voltage drop would not be as serious.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 09:47:12 pm
content: Or get something better than the cheapest CFLs/LEDs that actually has decent line regulation.