Replacement for STM32F407? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 12:41:13 pm
content: Since most of my clients don't care for closing their production for a couple of years, I am looking for replacements for the STM32F4x7x.Most important features being ARM M3 or M4 CPU and at least 512kB FLASH. LQFP100 or LQFP144 packages, rather than BGA, would be a nice.Required peripherals: Ethernet, USB, USART, SPI, Timers.Firmware: freeRTOS or bare metal / CMSIS.Chinese components are not an option, for reasons which I am not going to discuss in this thread.We are aware of other CPU families, however for several reasons we would like to stay with ARM.For starters I had a look at NXP, where the largest (available) MCU was some M4 with 256kB Flash or even ROMless.Since this is a common topic for designers at the moment, I am looking forward to your thoughts.

author: mino-fm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 01:35:57 pm
content: Good morning. You are late, aren't you?Here you can find 2120 parts. You only have to remove controller from PCB.https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STM32F407G-DISC1?qs=mKNKSX85ZJejxc9JOGT45A%3D%3D

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 05:49:07 pm
content: There are literally thousands of parts to choose from indeed.One point you may want to elaborate on so we can better understand your need is why you want to stop using STM32F4x7x parts?

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 06:40:09 pm
content: If you are willing to use Toshiba, Maxim or Renesas:https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/filter/embedded-microcontrollers/685?s=N4IgjCBcpgbFoDGUBmBDANgZwKYBoQB7KAbRFgA4BWWeAyqgdkZHoooCYBmV89sCr1gBOWBwj1RYFgF0CABwAuUEAGVFAJwCWAOwDmIAL6SEIZJHTZ8RUiAAsABmFdnIOSCUr12-UYJgqKlNzS1wCYkgybmcuIIIOOw4OWAkQDkYKRjBUsA4HKgDeQK5uXjhOTN488Vged09INU1dA2MQKgd4aDNUTDCbSJAuMDsKYQdeYdHhO0mRsbihkfGONwVlRu8Wv3BhMeDeq3DbCfqNpp9WggBaVe7zTQBXawiyIJk26%2BEDyCeX2wgH0MhiAA

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 07:51:15 pm
content: I've used TM4C1294NCPDT in the past. 1MB flash, 256KB SRAM, ethernet, USB, all the standard SPI/I2C/etc. It's relatively expensive, but still has adequate availability. I think not as affected by the semiconductor shortage as TI fab it themselves.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 10:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 30, 2021, 05:49:07 pmSounds like they don't want to wait until April 2022, assuming that date is even accurate.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 10:49:57 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 30, 2021, 10:27:32 pmWell, if it's "only" a matter of supply... unfortunately at this point, suggesting another vendor/part is like playing dice. You may stumble upon a part that is fully available in acceptable quantities right now, and discover a few months from now, once your design is complete and ready to go to production, that said part is no stock for months. It's a really bad situation.Or, you can overstock it, if enough pieces are available at the moment. If you have the finances.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 11:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 30, 2021, 10:49:57 pmAgree, the TM4C1294NCPDT mentioned above has 933 global stock from TI, and a 35 week lead time. It could disappear overnight easily.It looks like many companies are listing a similar ~April 2022 ETA.You could still be screwed if ST values some part to produce first over the F407, but, I don't think any of us would be able to know that information.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 11:39:17 pm
content: Quote from: Gribo on June 30, 2021, 06:40:09 pmI work in automotive and we extensively use Renesas. We've been told (in advance) to start redesigning, because Renesas shortage is coming. Beware.

author: luiHS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 02:21:07 am
content: NXP's i.MX RT series is a good choice, they are cheap and very powerful ARM microcontrollers (Cortex M7).I am migrating all my designs from Kinetis MK66 (Cortex M4, 180Mhz) to i.MX RT1064 (Cortex M7, 600Mhz), I also bought quite a few RT1024s, but I prefer to start working with BGA because the solders in LQFP give me a lot of problems, I have to check them under a microscope.Another good option is the STM32H7 series from ST, miraculously a few days ago I was able to get 100 pieces of the H747 but in LQFP208 because BGA without stock until 2022. In a few minutes the rest of the units in stock were sold out, someone is buying everything in quantity that is put on sale in the best known suppliers, if you are not attentive you run out of anything, this time I was faster.In general there is a total shortage of many electronic components, especially microcontrollers.

author: apurvdate
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 05:53:14 am
content: Quote from: luiHS on July 01, 2021, 02:21:07 amMany HK & SG based online stores do that.Last year before covid hit us we were developing with STM32G474RET6 - the one you find on their nucleo board.On mouser, current stock is zero with 18K on order process. Its lead time is 53 weeks. But I see its available in volumes around 10K-20K with different HK based vendor warehouses.Pile up all available stock from standard vendors & sell at premium is the business strategy.This works best for parts nearing End of Production cycle. People are compelled to buy obsolete going parts at premium to keep existing orders in flow till their revised designs are tested & finalized.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 07:00:58 am
content: People are scalping the market like crazy.We saw 100 Zynq 7010's pop up on Farnell, the ops director was quick enough to get his credit card out and buy them. But half had been sold already. Within maybe 5 minutes.There are companies that are sniping for TI parts too. TI are aware and don't care, they won't do anything about it. But this is what happens when there is a market shortage, it becomes profitable to buy parts and sit on the inventory.Some jokers have 13,000 BNO055's, nominally a $4 chip, at first they were asking $122 each. Their stock hasn't changed over the 3 months they've held them, and they've slowly dropped their price... but they're still asking $60/part.

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 04:28:34 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 30, 2021, 07:51:15 pmThis is the input that I was hoping for, thank you very much. I wasn't aware of this product line by TI. I had a look at the TI product website. In addition to that - would you mind describing your development setup?- which IDE did you use, which OS?- are IP resources like IDE and libraries (e.g. Ethernet stack) available free of charge?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 04:56:44 pm
content: TM4C series is nice. But I wouldn't be much more confident about availability in the next few months. A quick look at usual distributors shows some stock, or no stock with relatively long lead times, up to 52 weeks or so, indicating that TI may not be much better off than the others. Frankly it's very much like playing dice here. Stocking now while available looks like the only real guarantee.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 11:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: harerod on July 01, 2021, 04:28:34 pmI use the TI-provided Code Composer Studio, based on Eclipse, on macOS. It works.QuoteYes.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 07:13:56 am
content: Quote from: harerod on July 01, 2021, 04:28:34 pmIt's been a long time since I used this, so not really representative.- which IDE did you use, which OS?uVision 4 on Windows, may the lord have mercy upon my soul.I have thought about if I did this again I'd set up a gcc toolchain -- TI provide instructions and I believe free libraries.- are IP resources like IDE and libraries (e.g. Ethernet stack) available free of charge?Yes. The library is called TivaWare and is rather good compared to other libraries.There's no nonsense like STM's processors where there are four or five different libraries. TivaWare does them all.There's also extensive register documentation, if you're a bit fiddler.

author: apurvdate
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 09:47:53 am
content: Quote from: harerod on July 01, 2021, 04:28:34 pmThough TM4C123 & TM4C129 are both cortex M4 cores, these two separate product lines. TM4C129 are generally higher capability than TM4C123.TI's Code composer studio is eclipse based & free, available for both windows & linux.The libraries called TivaWare are also free. Only thing is one can't go down to the baremetal part of the library function through all the abstraction.The reason we actually started developing on STM32G4 was longer lead times & random un-availability of TM4C123.By the time the changeover was done, pandemic hit and all the controllers are poof!

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 09:53:18 am
content: Quote from: tom66 onTodayat 08:13:56That would be an accurate description of my work.And thanks for all your other input.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 11:30:34 am
content: Also consider how much each requirement costs.Not only in terms of BOM but also in terms of design, supply chain and risks involved. By insisting on a uC with integrated ethernet you are rejecting 95% of the ARM market. With 100pin package this shrinks further. Only Cortex M3/M4? And ultimately you are left with four uCs, all out of stock.Quote from: harerod on June 30, 2021, 12:41:13 pmAdding every single requirement costs money and when I hear about requirements like "ethernet" + "single chip solution" then I think about a smartwatch with magjack. Another words: this smells like ridiculous set of requirements for niche application.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 12:21:42 pm
content: lcsc still has some 407's right now.https://lcsc.com/product-detail/ST-Microelectronics_STMicroelectronics-STM32F407VET6_C28730.htmlThey're just 3 times normal price.Anyway, whatever you do. Make sure you have the parts in your hands first before you start porting the code.

author: nudge
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 08:30:25 pm
content: I have a project with similar requirements (Ethernet, USB, SPI, I2C, Timers, >256KiB Flash) and the NXP LPC546xx series (LQFP-100) is what i use, but good luck finding stockI had to respin the design to use the LPC540xx/LPC54S0xx series chips, they offer the same set of peripherals without the Flash (some parts don't have Ethernet so check the exact part numbers). This meant adding a QSPI flash chip and re-working the DFU/firmware update code, as well as optimising parts of the firmware to execute from RAM as the QSPI flash is much slower than the on-chip flash of the 546xx series devices (I could execute straight outta Flash before). Annoying, but means I'm able to continue to ship.You can find details of the project here:https://cardinia.net/mini/Schematics up at:https://github.com/nudge/cardinia-mini(MCU change from Rev.B -> Rev.C)Good luck with finding a solution!

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 10:09:10 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 01, 2021, 07:00:58 amNot true

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 06:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 02, 2021, 12:21:42 pmAnd they're gone...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 06:22:11 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 09, 2021, 06:18:09 pmThere are 20 right now.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 11:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 08, 1970, 04:15:49 amProbably an order cancel stock adjustment or something, when he posted it was something like 2,000 pieces.

author: mino-fm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 08:53:29 am
content: Quote from: mino-fm on June 30, 2021, 01:35:57 pmGame over: 0 parts available now.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2021, 05:07:20 pm
content: "Since most of my clients don't care for closing their production for a couple of years"Firstly, it won't be 2 years. This bubble will burst late this year and Ebay will be flooded with surplus stock. There is NO underlying huge demand for end products. I say this because passives remain available, generally. It is only "strategic parts" which everybody is stockpiling.Secondly, there is a chinese clone of the 407. It came up in a thread I posted on, a couple of months ago. It is even claimed to run a bit faster because it copies the flash into sram, at startup. Whether you can get it, I doubt.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/opinions-on-st-32f407vgt6-versus-gigadevice-gd32f407vgt6/Also do a search for gd32f407vgt6Also a lot depends on how many you need and how soon. I have 500 of the 417 on order, deliverylater 2021. In return for placing that order, from an official UK ST disti, I got 20 from a "sample stock". So I reckon the 32F4 bubble will explode late 2021, though maybe not if you want a million of them.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 09:40:42 am
content: We ordered some F1's in december, should have been here late june. They got delayed to januari.I do not expect many of the orders "late 2021" to be delivered at all.Other parts of the worlds, where free vaccines are not a thing, still are looking at lockdowns and factory closings. That's not helping.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2021, 11:36:38 am
content: Which distributor failed to deliver in June?

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 11:57:10 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on 2021-07-09, 19:18:09https://lcsc.com/product-detail/ST-Microelectronics_STMicroelectronics-STM32F407VET6_C28730.htmlAnd they're gone...Jeroen3, thanks for your heads-up two weeks ago. We had a pretty busy couple of hours, during which we decided whether to go with LCSC or not. About five minutes ago I finished verifying a sample from the batch we bought. The parcel itself arrived three hours ago, most of the time it was stuck in German customs. I chose DHL Express as the carrier, who called me to verify my VATID, EORI and willingness to shell out extra bucks for letting them handle customs with data I put into their questionaire. Since my time is worth real money that was the the cheapest overall solution. TARIC declaration by LCSC was correct (microcontrollers: 8542319090).I'd like to thank all those who actually read, understood and answered the original query for a replacement of STM32F407, with additional parameters given in the initial post. As a result we are now aware of several replacement ARM M3/M4 product families. However, due to my huge personal investment in STM32, I really hope that I will not have to change product families anytime soon. The devil you know...As stated elsewhere, as a support to my clients I look after several designs in production, where each and every silicon based component is out of stock. However, the MCU itself is the single one component hardest to replace. I suggested stocking up on key components since third quarter last year. However, accounting couldn't depart from "just in time", which had somehow always worked out in the last decades.Edit 2108151448: Invoice from DHL came in after a month. German customs only added Einfuhrumsatzsteuer (VAT 19%) and DHL billed me some peanuts for handling customs and advancing the VAT. So all in all - the whole transaction wasn't too bad. I didn't like sending an advance payment of several kiloEuro to China, though.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 05:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: harerod on July 14, 2021, 11:57:10 amThis is to be expected from accounting people. But accounting people are not (or at least should definitely never be) the people who get to decide in a company. Otherwise, that's a nice recipe for the company ending up crashing, especially in a high-tech company. And especially in times of crisis. Accountants are worth crap for handling crisis.The just-in-time may have somehow "always worked out", but this time is different. Anyone not willing to acknowledge this probably has a severe mental deficiency.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 08:02:50 pm
content: I've been in this business since 1978.JIT never actually existed.It merely is a name for "a big company customer" screwing "a smaller company supplier" into keeping the buffer stock, at no charge.It has always been a house of cards, which worked because "small suppliers" worked like crazy to keep the bread on the table. I knew a guy who was supplying the motor manufacturing sector and he sometimes had to hire a helicopter (a twin turbine one, a few k per hour) to deliver some stock, to avoid huge penalty clause payouts.The only place there the balance of power is more equal is say VW buying from Bosch. Well, that is how VW managed to get Bosch to build in the ECU cheat softwareWill this chip crisis make anybody realise JIT is a stupid idea? Of course not.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2021, 08:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 13, 2021, 11:36:38 amElement14, even the in-stock parts are delayed right now for some reason.Anyways, we're starting to see shortages in everything right now. Even if you have parts, you can't ship them because there are no pallets!Quote from: harerod on July 14, 2021, 11:57:10 amAh, there they went! Good luck.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 02:24:47 pm
content: Yeah, I can confirm that orders secured for hundreds of 32F417, with a Oct 2021 delivery, were based on lies. Lead time is currently 45 weeks, from when the order was placed, May 2021.The disti wasn't going to tell us, either...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 05:44:33 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 15, 2021, 02:24:47 pm

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 06:52:44 pm
content: But I've just ordered 100 from another disti, 90 days lead time. Not cheap this time, £8. If they turn up I can sell them on Ebay for £20Of course, everybody is doing this, so once that stock is delivered, there will be nobody buying "silicon" for the following year or two.