Desktop / Limited Space Lab - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 09:33:36 am
content: I'm struggling to find a combination of test equipment that will fit comfortably on top of a 5 ft x 2 ft desk. I asked about the picoscope in another thread and got a lot of negative feedback on that. I also looked at NI's VirtualBench, and it's neat and good in theory, but the thing costs $2k; for that amount of money I could buy a lot of Rigol gear. Additionally, it would have the same usability limitations that the USB scope has. The Analog Discovery by Diligent is a neat little device, but I would quickly outgrow its capabilities.How would you setup your hobby lab if you only had 10 sq. ft. of space and a $2k test equipment budget to work with? Assume I currently have no test equipment.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 09:46:55 am
content: How high up can you go? e.g. as below,Edit; the frame was some steel tubing I had spare and have added onto bits at a time

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 09:57:18 am
content: For your main test gear I would NOT choose a USB type scope. With your limited budget I would tend to a Rigol DS1054Z (hackable to 100 Mhz; best bang for your buck), an Intronix Logicport USB Logicanalyzer (best LA unter 400 US$).Regarding space: my advise: do not look 2-dimensional and consider the third dimension (height).If you are able to mount a shelf/rack above your desk, you can keep your desk free and have all your test equipment on eye-height.Also possible (I once did, but not anymore) using a mounting arm such as Ebay item 181790509938. Then you can move your scope in position if you need it an push it away if not (same applies to other test gears too).Edit: Ups, VK5RC was quicker with his advise to use the vertical space.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 10:03:55 am
content: Rigol DS1054Z has quite a small footprint. Fold a sheet of A4 paper in half lengthways. That's the size.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 10:08:25 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on September 21, 2015, 09:46:55 amIn theory eight feet, but the desk is in my bedroom so I'd prefer to not go vertical. In theory if I cleaned out my walk in closet I could maybe put the desk and everything in there.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 10:25:28 am
content: Re the height in the bedroom , is it the visual aspect or safety,i.e. falling onto you?Is it your house, can you put a screw into the wall?If it is the visual I have seen people hide quite a lot with curtains!Re selection of gear, I would go slow but get good gear, GOOD DMM (prob HH to start with), good soldering iron station/tools/leads, a good used PSU or 2, the Rigol oscilloscope stuff is pretty good esp for the price.When I look at the photo of Jim Williams messy desk (its on the forum) you can tell what items he actually uses, and it isn't that many.Your interests (and what gear you need) may change.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 10:40:00 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on September 21, 2015, 10:25:28 amIt is the visual aspect and it's an apartment.QuoteHmm, that might be doable.QuoteI'm pretty dead set on getting back into electronics, it's the only thing that has perked my interest lately.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 10:44:32 am
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 21, 2015, 10:08:25 amBut the girls will dig it!

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 04:19:18 pm
content: Nice one DaveQuote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 10:44:32 am

author: smbaker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 04:37:05 pm
content: I currently have a nice 15-20ft bench in my office, but only 5ft of it is actually usable anyway. The rest is permanently piled full of crap. I assume it works out this way because only 5ft of space is actually needed.In the 'usable' 5ft of bench space, I have room for a Rigol 1052E, stereo microscope, power supply (I have a very narrow extech switching one), and soldering station / fume extractor. There's still plenty of room for my current project under test. Built into my bench are drawers where I store most of my less-used gear -- the big linear power supply, function generator, frequency counter, desoldering iron, hot air iron, etc.I constructed my bench from a formica countertop and utility cabinets from a local big box hardware store. That worked out pretty well, as I could cut the countertop to size to fit the available space. It can all be torn down and move if need be (and in fact, last time I moved, I did tear it down and move it to the place, adding some additional countertop in the process)I'm finding that more critical than workspace and test gear space, is space for project storage and component storage. I keep accumulating more stuff.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 06:57:21 pm
content: Here is the equipment I'm thinking about getting:MSO: Rigol MSO2072A - $1,165 (hackable to 300 MHz)AWG: Hantek HDG2002B - $329 (hackable to 100 MHz)PSU: Rigol DP832 - $429 (possibly hackable to a DP832A)----------------------Total: $1,923What do you think? Did I forget any essential test equipment (I already own a multimeter)?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 07:39:13 pm
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 21, 2015, 06:57:21 pmWouldn't a DSO with inbuilt AWG and MSO be a better space saving option?

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 07:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 21, 2015, 07:39:13 pmIn theory yes. However, the AWG on the Rigol 2000A series is a $350 option and is limited to 25 MHz. The Hantek HDG2002B can be hacked to 100 MHz. Additionally, the Rigol built-in AWG would have to compromise on usability.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 08:00:18 pm
content: Quote+1 to that. First tools I need for a lab are a saw, drill, screws, and wood glue. My space is anywhere there's air.O-scope is essential when it's essential. But I could probably store mine in the garage and only pull it out when needed. I would need a PC, soldering iron, hot air, psu, glue gun, DMM, and some space for various hand tools before I considered any permanent space for an oscilloscope. But I guess it depends on what kind of electronics you are doing.Last place I would want my bench is a bedroom, though. Maybe I do it wrong, but I tend to make quite a mess.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 08:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 21, 2015, 07:39:13 pmDefinitely agree with that. The Hantek I'm afraid is a bundle of frustration, I have one. It's gathering dust with my USB scopes ;-)Consider how much you'd use a function generator. While I use a scope every day, the function generator might only be once each week. What are you doing that requires a 100MHz function generator/AWG? To give you some idea, until a year or so ago I lived with a simple analogue 3MHz function generator for a couple of decades. The Hantek takes up quite a lot of desk space, it's like having another scope to house.Also regarding the DP832, it's a nice PSU, but you know what? Most of the time I just use one of my narrow simple single channel units that take up about 1/4 of the desk space. It's pretty rare I need all the functionality of the DP832. They are quite deep units.The DS1000Z series fit in a shoebox, the footprint is really pretty small. Perhaps you have a need a 300MHz scope, I don't know, but the DS2000A series is a fair bit larger.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 08:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: TheBay on September 21, 2015, 04:19:18 pmHe should know!http://www.amazon.com/The-Internet-Dating-David-Jones-ebook/dp/B004MDLVAO

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 09:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on September 21, 2015, 08:45:39 pmYou can get single chip signal generators on eBay for $9. The AD5890-based ones are good up to about 20MHz.Just add an Arduino and an LCD display.eg.http://www.ebay.com/itm/141737296228

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2015, 11:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on September 21, 2015, 08:45:39 pmI don't really need an AWG, I just figured it was essential gear for a well rounded lab. I know I would enjoy being able to play with arbitrary waveforms to see how they interact with analog circuits. With a 100 MHz AWG I was thinking I could use the modulation feature to create an AM/FM transmitter so that I could learn about radio electronics. I would also like to be able to play with the PWM feature for motors, DACs, and such. IIRC the Hantek has 16 channel digital out, so I could also use it to generate bit patterns. I guess really it comes down to the fact that I need a source to play with my new oscilloscope.What exactly did you not like about the Hantek?QuoteThis again is similar to the decision process for the AWG. I was thinking it would be a good for working with three voltages such as 5v, 3.3v, and 1.8v. I don't need that much wattage, but for the money it's hard to beat. A 1 channel digital variable current/voltage PSU is $150+. I was thinking that instead of having a bunch of wallworts or multiple single channels PSUs I could just get one really good unit to power everything.QuoteI would like to work with high speed SPI and other high speed computer buses. In the long term the DS1000Z doesn't have enough bandwidth for me.

author: smbaker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 07:07:41 am
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 21, 2015, 11:17:51 pmThat reminds me, I've really been wanting to build a 12v, 5v, 3.3v power supply. I'm currently using a single-channel variable power supply on the bench, the extech I mentioned previously, and there are times when I need an extra 5v or 12v and I grab a wall-wart. I have a power strip that spans most the length of the workbench that makes this pretty convenient, but consolidating those three fixed power supplies into one unit, with ammeters and maybe even current limiters, would be a great project.The problem with the typical 3-in-1 power supply is the sheer size of the thing. I too have drooled over getting a DP832, but don't want to waste that amount of bench space on it.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 07:22:01 am
content: Quote from: smbaker on September 22, 2015, 07:07:41 amOne of the things I like about the DP832 is it can sit on the floor in the vertical position, it doesn't need to take any bench space. Dave shows this in his review at 5m 25s:

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 08:23:02 am
content: Have you thought about other things you need to place? Soldering iron and solder take quite some room. And what about cabinets/drawers with components? A lamp?

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 09:07:30 am
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 21, 2015, 06:57:21 pmA Keysight DSOX2004a might be interesting for you. You can hack it to 200 Mhz, all options and then it includes a function generator and a (limited) logic analyzer. Good deal at Zoro (only valid today!):DSOX2004a for $2040 minus 30% = $1428 with free shipping. Use voucher code "STEPUPSALE"btw: The other versions are also available there (100 Mhz, 200 Mhz etc.) and the free software option offer of Keysight should be valid there too (http://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=DE&lc=ger&ckey=2606185&nid=-33575.0.08&id=2606185), so no reason to hack it (then hack is only needed just to get 200 Mhz instead of 70 Mhz and to get the MSO capability).I agree with some others here: I would skip the expensive function generator. It is useful very seldom. The buildt in generator of the Keysight is usually sufficent. If not you may upgrade to a "real" function generator later any time.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 03:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: nbritton on September 21, 2015, 11:17:51 pmWhere to start ;-)It's a largely unfinished piece of work. The hardware is OK but the software is full of bugs. It crashes. The 16 Ch simply doesn't work. It crashes. Manual calibration takes about an hour and is very fiddly, and one wrong key press and you have to start again. It crashes. I have to test the outputs before I apply it to anything in case it's not what I'm expecting. It crashes. The AWG doesn't work. It crashes. It doesn't maintain settings on reboot. Did I mention that it crashes?It has the makings of a useful device, but the software is so bad I lost patience with it as a piece of test equipment. It's quite fun if you have time on your hands and enjoy tinkering though.QuoteWhat speed SPI Are you looking at? The DS1000Z will decode and trigger on 50MHz SPI, I haven't tried decoding SPI any faster than that though.While there's no prescribed limit on SPI speed, you usually find that you'll be limited on either master or slave anyway, not to mention having to be clever with the wiring (not to mention probing!) at speeds beyond about 50MHz or so.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2015, 05:07:52 pm
content: I have a Rigol DP832 and i highly recommend it. Its a very good all around PSU that i never really had any issues with.(Do take in to account its pretty deep in size)I also have that Hantek signal gen and yeah its buggy as heck. Gets the job done for a simple signal generator tho. If you just need it for ocaonal use its probably a good choice because it can be had for pretty cheep on ebay. Just don't expect a Rigol level of quality on it.As for the scope. That is quite a tough choice once you need to go above the 100MHz that the 1000Z offers. Brand new scopes get rather expensive as you go above 200Mhz. You can get good deals on used scopes if you really want the bandwidth like 500MHz. Some of them might be very old so might not offer things like fast waveform updates and might be huge and heavy. For example the Agilent 6000 and 7000 series are old, but still new enough have all the features that new scopes have(Its basicaly a x3000 without a few minor features and not quite as high waveform update rate).I would urge against buying a USB scope. But a USB logic analyzer is more useful than a standalone one. Browsing trough the data is easier with a mouse and you will often get better serial decode on a PC. A lot of logic analyzers can also directly stream the data to the PC. Since you got many GB of ram on your computer you can record many seconds of activity at full speed. But for most digital stuff a 4 channel scope is also perfectly good due to almost everything being serial these days,