Affordable license?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 10:27:57 am
content: How can I get a modern copy of Altium for a reasonable price w/o cracking it? I’m not a student and $355 a month is unaffordable, and a 15 day trial won’t do especially if I have to go through the torture of using windows. Tell me there’s a way!

author: Hawaka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 11:42:13 am
content: I am not sure there is a way. Altium is expensive no matter the licence, and since (I believe) they have stop selling infinite stand-alone licence there is no more good deal.Do you have to use Altium? If so, why isn’t it provide to you?If not, I would definitively go with KiCad (and you don’t have to use Windows). I use both software and yes, Altium has some nicer features and option, but is it really worth what they are charging you? As long as you don’t plan to do some very complex PCB that you have to rely on a specific features, KiCad should cover it without a problem.

author: Pseudobyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 03:38:14 pm
content: With the release of KiCAD 7 I was thinking of finally playing around with it for hobby projects. The big thing holding me back was the component management. In the latest KiCAD they now have database libraries which is super exciting.

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 09:15:14 pm
content: Well I don’t want to invest my time learning a lesser tool and then have to switch. My board is an RF project and fairly complex. It just makes sense to use Altium from day 1. But it looks like I have to use cracked software from Russia(!?) because Altium can’t provide an affordable license. That’s so myopic of them. Surely they -want- users to get hooked on their CAD? Maybe Allegro. If I’m going to be naughty why not steal the most expensive product? But it’s sad because I’d much rather pay and be legit. BTW are there CADs especially for RF PCBs?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 09:19:05 pm
content: Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 10:27:57 amYou've already answered your own question. Either you get it for free or you don't get it at all, as its not affordable for a hobbyist.There are also many people using Altium in Wine or vmware here.Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 09:15:14 pmNow you are just whining.https://www.cadence.com/ko_KR/home/solutions/rf-microwave-solutions/rf-pcb-design.html

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 09:27:39 pm
content: Alright I suppose that’s true but if I make an open source design with a cracked CAD the watermark is coming back to bite me. Obviously they add one. But, yea ok I guess it’s like the old days when microsoft intentionally distributed pirated copies of windows to foster adoption in China. They must want us to. I guess

author: Hawaka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 09:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 09:15:14 pmI don't think KiCad is a lesser tool. It is just different. Yes it is less advance, but you can customize about everything. Also it is evolving and getting sensibly better at each release. Altium has some dumb bugs or inconveniences since years and at each update I am more concern about the new bugs that it will bring rather than the new features. It will more rely on your experience level, on how much you need to depend on a specific feature for your design?Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 09:15:14 pmAltium already has a big market share on the enterprise level. DIY and stand-alone people are not really their concern from what I know. And as changing a CAD software is a hug hassle for a company, they know that loosing a customer is on the low side of the probability.Most expensive doesn't mean the best. Last time I use Allegro in 2012 that software was like going back to the 2000… Anyway it is surely not the most expensive, try something more like Ansys PCB, Siemens EDA or CR-8000 (and I am probably missing some).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2023, 10:55:06 pm
content: Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 09:27:39 pmMain concern is to not allow internet access.Previous thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/sued-by-altium-dont-do-what-i-did!/

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:09:05 am
content: I wonder how complex your design is. altium sure has more functions, but I don't now much about it because it's completely unaffordable for me. Even if it were affordable, I would not like to pay for it because of the atrocious way that company treats their customers.And I agree that having to switch to another program does take time, but blindly choosing an expensive tool based solely on perception or reputation is also far from optimal. There should at least be some process to compare your needs with the capabilities of the software you are interested in. It would be a serious waste of money to buy altium, if it turns out that KiCad (or another lower cost tool) is adequate for your purposes.Especially when you want to make an Open Source project, an Open Source tool Like KiCad has an extra advantage. And KiCad is quite capable. You can have a look at some projects made with KiCad on:https://www.kicad.org/made-with-kicad/Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 09:27:39 pmAs an intermediate solution, you can create a project in altium, and then import the schematic and PCB files made with altium into KiCad. KiCad has completely open and text based data formats, so there is no way to hide a watermark. An from what I remember from that "sued by altium" thread, altium "only" starts suing when it's being used for commercial projects.I don't know your experience with EDA programs, or the complexity of PCB's you want to make, Therefore I also don't know if KiCad is be the right tool for you. Test driving a program is relatively easy. I made my first PCB in KiCad in the same afternoon that I started evaluating it. But then the "Getting started in KiCad" guide was excellent (but it was KiCad V3 or V4, a long time ago). Getting proficient and being able to use it quickly and efficiently takes a lot more time (maybe a month or so?) But that is not needed to get to know a program good enough for making a decision whether it suits your purposes. I think I tried 5 or more different EDA suites (and each for a day or so) before settling on KiCad.For testing purposes, I recommend a schematic with about 10 to 20 symbols. A simpler schematic is not enough to get a real feel of a program, while a more complex schematic just takes more time to get though the whole design process. Starting with a known good schematic also helps. It skips the "design" step, so you can concentrate on how the software works. I advise to use the same schematic while testdriving different EDA suites, because this makes it fairer to compare those programs with each other.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 06:33:04 am
content: Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 09:15:14 pmThere was a thread a few weeks ago from someone who was sued by Altuim for using improperly licensed version. And Altium won and OP had to pay a bunch of money.Cracked software from Russia is relatively safe inside Russia because international law can't make it there. Altium will have no issues getting a hold of you in the US.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 07:11:42 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 18, 2023, 06:33:04 amAltium didn't sue and win. Altium threatened and got a ransom.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 07:17:22 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 18, 2023, 07:11:42 amSame result though. I'm not sure it worth the risk, especially given that free alternatives are available at a cost of a minor inconvenience of having to learn a new tool.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2023, 03:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 10:27:57 amGetCircuitStudiofrom Altium instead, its about $500. I'll get flamed for suggesting that because it hasn't had an update in years, so it may be end of life. But it works, it has minor bugs but you can do quite complicated boards and it has the same design flow as Altium Designer. That makes you as a student - soon to be graduate - engineer more interesting to a company using Altium. You''ll be up to speed in no time on AD if you've used CircuitStudio.Edit: Oops, I misread your post, you said yournota student. I missed the not.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 09:02:15 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on February 18, 2023, 03:21:49 pmWhat a weird suggestion.I had a short look, downloaded the "eval" installer, and it won't run on my Linux box ( OP apparently also finds windoze "torturous").According to the website installing is a simple 3 step process, but they forget to mention reading the 15 page EULA. (Does anyone ever really do that?) On top of that, the installer seems to be some zipped format, and files inside that archive have not been updated after 2019-02-01, and most are from 2017.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 10:10:11 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on February 19, 2023, 09:02:15 amWhat a weird response.The OP was considering Altium Designer, I suggested CS as a much cheaper alternative that has a very similar work flow. What's weird about that?And, yes, I did say it hadn't been updated for a long time. And good luck getting AD usable on WINE if that was OP intention (and yes, I am aware an old version has bronze status in WINE).

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 12:00:54 pm
content: Have used and worked with firms that required Altium Designer for compatibility.It is the ..gold standard in much of the industry, competitive to Mentor pADsUSA DCMA, and EU penalty for software piracy can be more than a paid seat licence.The cost is worthwhile for commercial or professional use.The many free or DIY/ Consumer CAD make it unnecessary to Crack Altium. the cracked keys or SW have very deep Trojan, malware or viruses in the key, Crack website or code.BewareHave a great day!Jon

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 01:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on February 19, 2023, 12:00:54 pmThat is possible but not necessarily true.I know of even some larger companies that buy the official software license for all seats as needed but they use cracked keys instead, because they do not want to deal with stupid license server issues.Especially when using different CAD software packages on one PC, it can be a nightmare, getting all licenses to work. Many times a cracked version is much easier to install and more compatible to other installed software and faster!I am not sure how legal this is, when you have the paid version laying next to the PC on a shelf.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 01:37:51 pm
content: the recent versions of Altium and other similar CAD, has liscencing as subscription,charged as a seat ( one WS) per month or year.the laws for (c), or DRM, generally preclude making, using selling any keys, cracking or circumvention of the DRM, cryptography, keys .regardless of the situation.The use of telemetry by OS firms make illegal key discovery easy.A VPN, firewall or tweaking the OS may solve.Jon

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 04:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on February 19, 2023, 01:29:14 pmIndeed! Getting license servers to work in a larger company can be a fulltime job. It is far more efficient to use cracked versions. As long as the licenses are paid for, it is not a problem.Malware, virusses, etc are just stories. There aren't enough people in the world using professional CAD software to make it worthwhile including a virus in a cracked package. It is like like going to the desert to rob someone.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 06:34:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2023, 04:31:51 pmHmm, I dunno. Relatively few users, yes. But potentially high value targets for industrial espionage. Stuxnet wasn't targeted at the masses.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 08:13:33 pm
content: QuoteThat would be true if the code needs modifying, but surely decent(!) malware is just a blob you drop in with little effort. Hell, say it's the key generator and it doesn't even need to be for the right product - once it's run you don't care that any output is irrelevant.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 11:01:38 pm
content: Well, only an idiot would run a piece of software without checking for virusses & checking credentials.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 11:24:49 pm
content: 'Idiots' (who, but for the grace of God, etc) are exactly who they want to snare. Allegedly one reason many phishing emails aren't as convincing as they could be.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 04:09:34 am
content: As far as I now, altium has a yearly revenue of USD150M. And even with their prices that still amounts to a lot of paying customers, and probably 10 times as much who want to buy it but simply can't afford it. And then the trove of students and hobbyists who simply have no intention of paying for software at all.It does remind me of the "Twilight" CD's from 20 to 30 years ago. They were a big thing in the Netherlands in an age from before the internet. At some point in time they started adding copy protection because their CD's got copied a lot.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 12:41:50 pm
content: I don't know how the situation is now but 15 years ago I could easely find shops in Asia that had all the major software packages for sale for a few bucks.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 12:57:47 pm
content: I have gone completely Open source out of idealistic considerations (And use KiCad), but know that is not the path for everyone. If I wanted to run altium, I'd probably do it in a vm and isolate it from the internet completely. That still has the issue if you have to share the design with paying customers, but by that time you should probably cough up the money and go legal anyway.

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 02:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2023, 04:31:51 pmAnd yet, they bother making cracks for the same software? I'm guessing there's some overlap between those who crack software and those who write malware. Maybe if you are an individual, the risk is really small. If you work for a small or medium size company on certain new technologies, you realize that industrial espionage is real enough that you need to take steps to deal with it.John

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2023, 05:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: JohnG on February 20, 2023, 02:45:17 pmMaybe the reason is simpler... they could be paid by the companies that make the software in order to gain market share in places where companies don't have enough money to spend to buy the real deal. Make people start with a fake copy and then end up with those people being locked in. Or the crackers make money from selling the software DVDs / websites that offers the software for download. Or just for kicks. There are lots of people uploading TV series for others to download as a hobby without being financially compensated in any way. There are several people on this forum that create keygens for test equipment for no other reason than being helpful by applying their skills. On top of that, most of the software uses FlexLM which AFAIK is not difficult to crack / patch if you know how.

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 10:34:57 pm
content: Speaking for myself, I’d be more than happy to pay for software if it helped me make income and the price isn’t relevant so long as I’m making a net profit. But paying on day 1 at $400/mo isn’t happening and in the current environment installing Russian cracked software is just inviting trouble. I’m more concerned about malware getting into the network than getting sued. I don’t get why students catch a break but startups can’t. There should be a version where you pay only for the hours used when you export the design, so potential customers can get a foothold on using the software without all these risks.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 12:23:14 am
content: You realize its easy to become a student right? You just need a EDU email address.QuoteYeah but there isn't. Potential customers can get a free license:https://www.altium.com/altium-designer/free-trialNot sure why this is so hard for you to process.

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 01:37:25 am
content: * for 15 days.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 03:14:48 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 22, 2023, 12:23:14 amYeah, just sign up for a certification at some college, it doesn’t even have to be in person, and it doesn’t have to be a full program. And you get a certification out of it.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 06:25:51 am
content: There's a reason Altium can charge the prices they do. Their software saves time (once the learning curve is overcome), the time of hardware designers is very expensive. Lets use round math to keep things simple, if you disagree with the input figures (they do vary wildly) substitute your own in.Engineer salary cost to company p/a: $100,000% of time the engineer is using PCB tool : 50%% of time saved using Altium : 33%Savings with Altium p/a : $16,667As with all capex it's a cost/benefit analysis. If you only do a couple of designs a year as a one man shop, Altium may not be worth the extra money.There are intangible benefits, such as if the tool prevents you making a mistake, or perceived professionalism.A lot depends on where the engineer is on the learning curve.We switched from Diptrace to Altium based on a calculation similar to above. When I chose Diptrace originally it was a perfect fit and I'd suggest giving it a look, although I never tried Kicad which could be an alternative. The only downside was that we has to go through two learning curves.All that said, sign up at the local college and become a student.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 08:27:15 am
content: Some of the EDA suites are "free" (in that you don't have to pay money to use them), but have a limitation that you only can obtain gerber files from that company, or you send the design to them and only they make the PCB's. This may be an acceptable business model to some, but it also is a huge gamble to place all that faith in a single external company. I will never fall into that particular trap myself.Quote from: nth_degree on February 21, 2023, 10:34:57 pmWhich is perfectly understandable. altium prices are hard to swallow for small companies, or if PCB design is a small part of your business.I wonder what sort of designs you want to make, how complicated they are and how many you expect to make. How much and what sort of experience do you already have with PCB design?It does cost time to learn to use a program, but learning the basics really does not cost very much time. And the extra time spent in getting to know the nicks and crannies of a program, is also productive time, as you will be making finished designs while doing so. Learning proper PCB design (from how to create a readable schematic to EMC regulations and how to design them into the PCB) is a very big chunk of the learning process, and it is knowledge you take with you when you switch to another program. There are some disadvantages of starting with an FOSS program or a "low cost" commercial program, but buying into an expensive program without knowing whether you can recoup those costs is also far from ideal. From your own words, this last option is not going to happen, so you'll have to make a choice from the rest of the pie.In your opening post you ask for an "affordable altium version", and Hawaka answered "there probably is no such thing". After that it just drifted a bit though alternatives, but nobody has a direct answer. I wonder why you want altium so much? Maybe you should ask yourself that same question, and have a closer look at alternatives if you can't afford altium.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 01:11:50 pm
content: Altium gave me a ~$2k/year discounted price as a startup in 2021.Otherwise I don't recommend pirating it. If you get caught via a phone-back mechanism or whatever, they'll try to ransom you (as will every CAD software company really) -- it's extremely hard to actually get the charges to stick, but paying a few grand is generally cheaper than lawyer costs and your time/effort.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 01:27:46 pm
content: There are other capable CAD systems out there.If you like to pay-Pulsonix-Orcad-ZukenFree:-Kicad of course-horizon-edaBut the OP is probably fixed on the fancy looks AD provides and probably never worked with AD.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 06:58:13 pm
content: You should evaluate all relevant packages to see what fits your workflow best. That being said, I tried most packages and AD was the best fit for me overall.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 02:10:23 pm
content: Quote from: temperance on February 22, 2023, 01:27:46 pmProtel 99SE (Abandonware, still 1-10dollar licenses available from seconhand purchasers or as crackware).Still very good and way easier to use then Kicad.

author: mooreaa
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 10:34:47 pm
content: I really hope they come through with better CS support. CS would work on more of our simple projects and being able to share the library is a huge benefit.The problem with CS right now is that its based on the old Altium core code and it has 8+ years of bugs that aren't fixed.I have asked many times about CS as we bought into it 2 years ago for some additional licenses to help with some guys working on schematics and it seems for all that Altium takes, they don't respond or offer any support feedback on that piece of software.With Altium increasing their prices (at least renewal) by 25% this year it makes my small company seriously want to consider other options despite our prior investment into this software.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 08:52:56 pm
content: Quote8+ years of bugs. You can make that at least 12 years. And when you take time to point out where things go wring, they admit things to be wrong but there is always a workaround and that's how you are supposed to use AD. Or they try to convince me that I'm wrong, which doesn't work. Nice, workarounds for almost everything... Altium calls it flexibility while the workaround doesn't work properly either because of some other limitations like calculation errors.

author: ruairi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 10:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 18, 2023, 07:11:42 amAnother way of looking at this.The OPs ethical contortions are funny to watch. Why did they make Ferraris so niceandso expensive? They've forced my hand into stealing one...Altium seem to be an unlovable bunch (like Avid in my audio space) but that does not mean software piracy is ok. And doubly so when the open source products are so strong.The OP wants that Nice feeling that comes from using "the best" tools but without paying, there's a name of that.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 10:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: ruairi on March 20, 2023, 10:05:43 pmStealing a Ferrari means someone else loses that Ferrari. Using Altium when you can't afford it, has zero negative impact to them. Its not a comparable statement at all.https://www.wne.uw.edu.pl/inf/wyd/WP/WNE_WP109.pdf

author: ruairi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 10:28:07 pm
content: ..

author: ruairi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 10:29:33 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on March 20, 2023, 10:22:30 pmLet know how that works out for you when someone starts stealingyourIP.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 08:14:47 am
content: Quote from: ruairi on March 20, 2023, 10:05:43 pm^Haha! Yup, this is my thoughts exactly.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2023, 04:18:07 am
content: Quote from: ruairi on March 20, 2023, 10:29:33 pmIf someone uses my IP for a commercial product, they'll usually pay. At least when they need support.If someone uses my IP for a non-commercial, low volume or evaluation product, it's literally free advertising.Zealously guarding IP has negative value. It's not a finite resource.

author: jmarkwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2023, 02:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: nth_degree on February 17, 2023, 10:27:57 amI can tell you what worked for me.I am the owner of another Altium product (Circuit Studio). I was an early adopter of the software thinking it was going to be a "lesser" version of Altium Designer, but was sorely disappointed in the user interface and feature set, having been a very long time Altium Designer user at work. I still hobbled by with CS for several years.Typically, at years end, Altium contacts members of their customer base and offers a deep discount to upgrade to Altium Designer. It's still not chump change but it's a SIGNIFICANT discount. Better than 50% in my case. Side jobs have more than paid for the upgrade many times over.I was very tired of waiting for a Circuit Studio update and I was never very happy with it to begin with, so I agreed to pay for the Altium Designer upgrade and I'm really glad I did. Now I have all the features and an update every 6 weeks or so, which makes me smile every time.

author: Gibson486
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 12:48:51 pm
content: They still sell stand alone, just not the one you keep on your computer. You need to sign on to their servers and they keep track of your software version. They are gonna push 365 like crazy soon. The groundwork is already there, it is a question of when at this point.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 12:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: jmarkwolf on March 22, 2023, 02:44:22 pmWhat features and updates make you smile every 6 weeks? I too use Altium Designer and honestly don't see any significant difference between the current version and 5 versions back. Maybe it stopped crashing so often but this is what one expects for the price.I am just curious.

author: jmarkwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 04:53:02 pm
content: Quote: What features and updates make you smile every 6 weeks? I too use Altium Designer and honestly don't see any significant difference between the current version and 5 versions back. Maybe it stopped crashing so often but this is what one expects for the price.I am just curious.It's not the features and updates that make me smile, it's the fact that I'm getting ANY features and updates. Circuit Studio has gone years without badly needed features and updates.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2023, 07:14:19 pm
content: QuoteIncremental fixes/improvements in Draughtsman.Fixes/improvements for flex PCBs.Improvements in balanced tracks.OTOH, Viewer 09 starts up near enough instantly, whereas Viewer 20 takes quite a bit longer. I guess that's the difference between 300MB and 5GB

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 02:59:30 am
content: Looks like I’m going with Protel99SE, on a $100 tiny mini micro.I don’t want to steal and Altium are making a mistake not providing a free method to learn their platform. When I do turn a profit they won’t get any of it now. They join the virtue signaling for weight loss club, bc less food on their oh so righteous table.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 09:39:05 am
content: Protel99SE isn't free, is it? So technically you're stealing that instead.And... when/if you get money, what are you going to buy? The only thing that 99SE will give you experience of is Altium, so you'd be starting from scratch again. Surely it would be better to go with Kicad - by the time you have money to spend it will have improved quite a bit and be up to whatever task you need it to do. And still be free. On the other hand, if you decide it's not up to the task you'll have the same 'weird interface' experience with whatever you buy than if you used 99SE. But you wouldn't have stolen anything meantime.

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 10:29:18 am
content: You can get 99SE licenses on ebay for $13 right now. So I’m not stealingThere’s no way I’m wasting my time on kicad, they can’t give it away for a reason. I mean load it up side by side w Altium. It sucks. I’m sorry but it’s just bad software and a waste of time to learn and then have to unlearn. It reminds me of microsoft paint

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 12:38:24 pm
content: The OP started this thread nearly two months ago.They could have been an expert in KiCAD by now, or indeed any other package.Instead, I think they are more interested in trolling than learning.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 01:46:30 pm
content: Quote from: nth_degree on April 05, 2023, 10:29:18 amI seriously doubt if they are pukka licenses. You're basically paying someone to run a keygen and supply a fake key.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2023, 02:53:57 pm
content: Yeah, I doubt you will get a legit copy of it now. All the listings you see on eBay and the likes are all fake. And $100 is overpaying for that, they are usually much cheaper.It is also strange to move to a dead software that may stop functioning on new OSes any time.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2023, 01:19:35 am
content: Quote from: jmarkwolf on March 28, 2023, 04:53:02 pmA big pain in the arse is the subscription cost. Now nearing $3K per annum! Altium's support is useless - you might as well be talking to a brick wall.And they are adding so much crapware. Every company I have had to connect with has had issues setting up Altium 365; and don't get me started on their "100 ways to skin a cat" library management. So that leaves bug fixes. It is reprehensible to have to pay a fortune for bug fixes on dodgy software. Gates did that for years by disguising major bug fixes as new releases of Windows.KiCad will mature, or Autodesk will come up with something that will beat Altium, and then Altium will be in trouble. Already I know a company using KiCad instead of Altium.

author: mkissin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2023, 05:20:56 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on April 08, 2023, 01:19:35 amThis always sounds good in theory, but Autodesk has already played its hand (IMO) on this...Fusion 360 and Inventor etc are all subscription only.The update policy is even worse for SolidWorks. An old version won't open new files at all, and if you do open an old file with a new version, it will silently "upgrade" them, making them unopenable in the older version!This is just the way it is for big software. At least Altium will sell you a perpetual license, and it has total file compatibility between versions. Could be lots worse.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2023, 09:20:27 pm
content: Solidworks will warn you when saving an older version as a newer version. But I agree its a shitty tactic, when the actual difference between many major releases is minimal.I think Eagle still has its free version, but its overly crippled (2 layer, small board area, etc.). Also don't think autodesk is putting a ton of resources into it in terms of development.https://www.autodesk.ca/en/products/eagle/features

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2023, 10:07:05 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 10, 2023, 09:20:27 pmNot a ton of resources? The last standalone (non-Fusion360) releasewas in 2020. Thedevelopment is dead, Jim. It's a dead-end unless you plan to migrate to Fusion360. The best you get is a 'free subscription' to Fusion360 which they can discontinue whenever they feel like it.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2023, 10:42:14 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 10, 2023, 10:07:05 pmYeah I think you told me this already.But I meant the one integrated into fusion 360, I guess its not called eagle any more.edit: they overhauled the UI at leastSeems simplistic in some areas but has some interesting features:- flat cap end on trace- CAD style component orientation and alignmentSame super crippled limitations for free version:

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 07:08:52 am
content: Hmmm, 80cm x 80cmmm me thinks

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2023, 08:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on April 11, 2023, 07:08:52 amlol didn't even notice that, yeah its 80x80mm or so area in the app that you can place components in.Quote from: karpouzi9 on April 11, 2023, 07:52:05 amI don't think anyone will be using fusion for a 16 layer design any time soon. Probably just a basic feature limitation they have in place.

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2023, 02:15:43 am
content: Quote from: nth_degree on April 05, 2023, 10:29:18 amWow, harsh :-) I've been using Altium ever since they dipped their price to $4k back in 2009. I've kept the subscription up to date since then. It's great, bugs and all. For the past few years, I'd try Kicad periodically before dismissing it. It might have been a toy 5 years ago, but not any more.At version 5, it became good enough to use for open-source hobby projects, where accessibility was more important than the niceties of Altium.At version 6, it was good enough to use for some small professional projects.As of version 7, it has outstripped most low-end commercial packages and is good enough that I can see not renewing support on Altium. Kicad is definitely looking at Altium as a source of features, and now has many of the best features of Altium including:powerful properties dialogs and part selection facilitiesdatabase librariesscriptable output generation, and alternative to Altium's OutJob facility, which might actually be more powerful because it can use CI to generate packages of production files automaticallymeaningful cut/past/multichannel operations that work well with hierarchical sheetsimproved ability to break out traces from high density padsdecent handling of complex pad shapes3D spacemouse support!Python scriptingExcellent cross probing capabilitiesSmart PDF capabilitiesAltium still has an edge in a number of areas but the list, and the distance between the two, is shrinking. Here's a partial list:available plugins/integration of high-end (expensive) toolsBetter BOM generation. Altium uses templates with good substitution capabilities. Kicad relies on plugins, and even the best of those are not as good as Altium'sGraphical comparison of revisions on disk or in source control, and easy facility to load prior revisions. Although services like Cadlab.io can fill in the gap for now.Better bulk parts-editing capabilities with spreadsheet-like interface.more mature breakout and routing toolsMore powerful 3D modeling and manipulation capabilitiesmultiboard and flex-PCB supportSlightly less jittery routing, but this gap is narrow and is constantly narrowing.more consistent UI between schematic and PCB. For example, alignment tools work in schematic and PCBIt would be nice if Kicad supported multiple projects and files open at once, with tabbed/tiled panes, like Altium. But it's very usable. I fully expect that kicad will start to nip at the lower end of Altium's potential new user pool. It may even displace some licensed seats that have been solid until now.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2023, 09:30:25 pm
content: Quote from: karpouzi9 on April 14, 2023, 02:36:26 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/jobs/

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 11:58:51 am
content: Regarding Electronics module in Fusion 360 (formerly known as Eagle): unless recently changed, there was a ridiculous artificial added nuisance for the users of personal license, not mentioned in the comparison table, that was making it literally unusable for me. What I mean is it wouldn't allow you to temporarily place your components outside of the PCB outline; you had to stuff them all inside the PCB boundary and then Tetris them within said boundary. Adding insult to injury, not sure if by design, negligence or my rotten luck of finding edge cases, in my project all the components got placed outside the PCB by default (i.e. defaulted to the invalid state) and couldn't be moved anywhere from there. IIRC I found an even sillier work-around for this stupid limitation by finding out they apparently forgot you could also move stuff with arrow keys instead of with a mouse and haven't disabled that. I ended up applying for a trial and finishing my project like that until my installation reverted to Personal.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 12:40:48 pm
content: QuoteTo be clear, are you saying that to place components outside the PCB you have to upgrade to a more expensive package?

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 02:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on April 18, 2023, 12:40:48 pmYes. I even heard about this "feature" being glossed-over in one of the official tutorial videos. You cannot move PCB components outside the board outline while on Personal license (admittedly, it's free). Except, sometimes you can. Kind of. Until you cannot again. Try opening one of the example designs, perform "Unroute / All" and try to drag out elements outside the PCB. Most of the time, you'll get an error message from the attachment. Sometimes you get lucky and 1 out of 10 tries the part will sitck outside but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. Then again, if you use your arrow keys to move the part and then confirm with ENTER, that seems to work most of the time. To me, the way it's implemented, suggests either of these two:There was a task called "Make freeloaders suffer" in Autodesk's issue tracker and someone had 5 minutes to spare before lunch so came up with this kludge and called it good.It's a deliberate attempt at frustrating the user who just spent the last week designing the board schematic and is now trying to lay it out and to make them rage-buy a commercial license just to be done with it.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 02:21:24 pm
content: That was already the case with the original Cadsoft Eagle V7, V6 and earlier versions.But if I remember well, when converting the schematic to board, all footprints were placed in a default rectangular boardshape andyou couldn't move them outside the board shape. This usually created problems only when you want to design a crowded board.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 03:09:16 pm
content: Blimey. If I wasn't already put off that stuff I would be now

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 08:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: Zbig on April 18, 2023, 02:07:40 pmI mean the limitation is clearly explained above (with a terrible typo, but you get the idea), free is limited to a board size of 80x80mm.They COULD let you lay out the entire board, hit generate gerber, and then pop up an error "too bad, more than 80mm" that would piss me off more. The limit is dumb. The way they implemented the limit is reasonable, IMO.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 08:17:30 am
content: If I retire later this year, I can offer my Altium license with the subscription at a big discount if anyone is interested. Will swap for a Tesla.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 06:42:46 am
content: A new Altum license just dropped:https://www.altium.com/altium-designer/licensing/individualUS$2k/year for individuals and small startups.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 01:18:01 pm
content: It looked to me like they were repositioning into the high-end of CAD and expecting the increased cost to give more income than that lost through cheap users. But if they've now got a starter license perhaps they just think money grows on trees.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 01:41:55 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on May 11, 2023, 01:18:01 pmI think it's a response to KiCad. v7 is not that far off Altium parity for a lot of designs.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 05:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 11, 2023, 06:42:46 amI wonder if they will offer a reduced subscription for small companies that already have a perpetual licence.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 09:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: jc101 on May 11, 2023, 05:11:52 pmI was offered an update to the current version for around $2K and I have a perpetual licence.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 09:09:05 pm
content: So was I last December, just in GBP. I declined but made them an offer over 50% less as a take it or leave it, they accepted. As a very small company it wasn’t affordable otherwise. I was happy to let it lapse but as someone paid for some work I made them the offer.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 03:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 11, 2023, 06:42:46 amAs I understand, this is a subscription only license, not perpetual. So you lose access to all your designs once you stop paying. Which is kind of ridiculous as all your time investment into libraries and learning how to walk around AD's bugs minefield goes "puff". From my own experience, it took me about a full year to completely realign my workflow for AD, that inlcudes not only learning the tool and migrating libraries, but also upgrading all sorts of little tools I've developed over time to help with my project workflow.But the price of perpetual license is now in the stratosphere as per their website (it says "starting at 17K CAD", which is about 12.6K USD), so I guess they are trying to force new users into that subscription "you keep paying while we hold all your designs hostage" nonsense. Or maybe they want new users to haggle better with sales reps - I got my perpetual license for just 3.5K USD in June 2020, in the thick of COVID, by basically calling them up holding a credit card in hand and saying - "I will buy a license RIGHT NOW if the price is right". Something tells me they will be willing to offer deep discounts off their list price, as many small biz shops and one-man-bands simply won't be able to afford it.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2023, 09:26:41 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on April 24, 2023, 08:17:30 amYou're on. Here's a picture of the Tesla. Send me your postal address and I'll ship to you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 11:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on May 15, 2023, 03:48:42 pmYep, that's what they count on. They have learned their lession with perpetual licenses. Customers buy them and them don't upgrade for 5-10 years.That sucks for regular income and sustaining the company share price.And there is probably no guarantee that it'll still be $2k next year...

author: nth_degree
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 10:13:45 pm
content: 2k is a lot more reasonable. I may bite

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 11:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 20, 2023, 11:38:43 pmWell as long as they keep update sub price reasonable I think many would keep paying. I know I do, because if I would ever need to renew my lapsed license I know I can't afford that. The only reason I do have the license is because I managed to get it at a very deep discount to begin with.Quote from: EEVblog on May 20, 2023, 11:38:43 pmConsidering that their update sub price for perpetual license goes up every year, I'm pretty sure it won't be that long until it goes up.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 11:11:31 pm
content: Quote from: nth_degree on May 21, 2023, 10:13:45 pmUpdate sub for perpetual license is about the same, so in your shoes I would gather up a bit more dosh, call them up and ask if they are willing to sell a perpetual license for say 4k, once you have that, you can still choose to extend your update sub annually, but at least you won't be locked out of all your work once you stop paying, so you can think of those extra 2K as insurance policy against that. Call them towards the end of month and make it clear that you are ready to close the deal RIGHT NOW if the price is right, and that whatever price you have in mind is all you can afford, and see if they agree. I think they will if they realize that they either get something out of you, or get nothing.The only situation when I can see usage of sub-only licensing is if someone is only doing a contract work, and no designs outside of that. Then I can see why you might want to hop-on hop-off the license and won't really suffer from lapses because your design will be in hands of your customer.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 07:07:14 pm
content: In the end my sales rep managed to secure a 40% discount for me for extending my support sub, so it came to 1815 CAD (+13% tax, for a total of 2050.95 CAD). It shows once again that they are willing to give deep discounts if you ask for it and convince them that it will be objectively hard for you to afford a full price.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 07:10:00 am
content: Is anyone paying Altium the normal price?

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 06:49:12 am
content: Quote from: Daixiwen on June 19, 2023, 07:10:00 amOnly the people who pay whatever is asked for a new car.Just saw the graduate offer - 12 months and some certification course for AU$135 then renews at AU$2625 for the following year.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 08:18:22 am
content: They are now targetting Eagle users:https://www.altium.com/go-altiumBut using the <$250k year entry level pricing.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 03:27:01 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 22, 2023, 08:18:22 amLOL. This time they only offer sub-only license. Last time they offered a perpetual license for the same migration, and the price was almost the same. But since Eagle is sub-only I guess it's a fair game. Still I wouldn't go for such an offer.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 09:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 22, 2023, 08:18:22 amhah, they are saying fusion360 costs $2,100 a year because they include the $1,600 signal integrity package. If you don't include that its only $500 per year, half of what Altium is offering (not saying its worth it, just typical marketing)."An Individual License can be renewed for another year for USD 1,985. The promotional price of USD 995 will no longer be available after your initial purchase. Offer expires June 30, 2023."Still, not a bad deal at all, as you probably don't need to prove you have a f360 license.And looking at fusion360 analysis, it appears different, its a PCB level visual analysis of trace impedance. I don't think Altium does this?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 10:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 22, 2023, 09:55:51 pmAFAIK Altium can't do impedance viewing (or crosstalk). Last year I converted an Altium layout (made by a contractor) to Allegro just to check impedances & crosstalk. And that did turn up with some problem areas that needed to be fixed in the layout.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 03:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 22, 2023, 10:26:39 pmTheoretically it does, but I'm yet to figure out how to set it up and get it to do what I want it to do.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 05:31:04 pm
content: Sure you're not thinking of the PDN analyzer addon?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 05:32:22 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 23, 2023, 05:31:04 pmNo I'm talking about SI simulation.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 09:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on June 23, 2023, 05:32:22 pmBut there is no cool visual.https://www.altium.com/documentation/altium-designer/configuring-running-signal-integrity-analysishttps://www.altium.com/documentation/altium-designer/interactively-routing-controlled-impedance-pcbThey are using some Simbeor plugin, but just a basic version. The full 3D field solver starts at $3,000/yrSkip to 25:00 or so:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 10:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 23, 2023, 05:31:04 pmThat is not the topic. As a side note though: I've seen some results from Altium's PDN analysis for DC and that looks pretty good.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 11:55:15 pm
content: I gave it a try, and to me the colours were the wrong way around (red = OK, green = not so good) with no way to change them. OK, that's not that much of a biggie, but it's distracting and every time I opened it I'm thinking, "Eh, that's not what it looks like, wish I could change it."

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 12:10:00 am
content: Quote from: Hawaka on February 17, 2023, 09:58:24 pmThere are dozens of free or cheap packages out there.The trick is finding one that not only does what you need but one you find easy to use and is relatively bug free.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 12:55:48 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 23, 2023, 09:20:59 pmThat's good stuff, I happen to know folks behind this sim.