Open Sesame - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2013, 06:38:24 pm
content: so there is this video of some crooks floating around with a hand held device that activates a remote locking function of cars.video herehttp://www.today.com/news/police-admit-theyre-stumped-mystery-car-thefts-6C10169993the blerb says;You think your car is safe when you lock it and set the alarm, but criminals have designed a new high-tech gadget to give them full access to your car, and police are baffled. NBC’s Jeff Rossen investigates.thoughts on whats going hereelectromagnetic induction (i doubt this very much i would think metals permeability would be the major issue)same as above but mimicking databus signals from a cars controllerand more likely a bruteforce approach more likely i think

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2013, 06:51:49 pm
content: Yeah, happens in Holland too. No sign of breaking in (so insurance problem), doors stay open and your navigation and airbags are missing. Mostly more than one car in the same street, different brands. A few days later the next street, and then in a few weeks they return because they know that the airbags have been replaced by then.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2013, 07:44:16 pm
content: Here in Romania, they usually wait in mall parking lots or follow a target car into the parking car, and start jamming the frequency of the remote key. Driver presses remote button to lock the doors but frequency is jammed. If the driver is not paying attention, he thinks the doors are locked but they're not, so once he goes into the mall they can open the door and steal from the car or actually steal the whole car.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2013, 08:49:58 pm
content: induction is possible i guess, but not feasible for such a small device, anybody know the magnetic susceptibility of steel ?i am guess you'll need to go photonicinduction (lot of power) style to force the solenoid latch thing

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2013, 10:31:09 pm
content: interesting these keyless entry systems are based on psedo number generatorhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_code

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2013, 11:29:12 pm
content: If it were an attack via the keyfob RF channel, they wouldn't need to go up close - it would be safer to walk by casually with a concealed device & listen for the unlock.This statement indicates a significant amount of cluelesness :QuoteAnyone mystified by that is a moron.Some accident detection systems auto unlock (although if they did it when the car has been remotely locked, it would be rather dumb).If there really was a 'magic device', someone would be selling it on the black market, and it wouldn't take much work for someone with the resources of a police dept (or insurance comapny) to get hold of one. Assuming they had a clue.Jamming to prevent locking seems plausible - no device at the point of opening - just the old trick of trying door handles.Of course vulnerabilities in a particular security or safety system are a definite possibility, and as automotive systems are often only made by a few manufacturers & sold to several makers, it's entirely likely that a vulnerability could affect specific models across several makes.

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2013, 11:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 05, 2013, 11:29:12 pmI wouldn't be surprised if some three-lettered gubbmint agency already have such a device.QuoteThat's the real biggie lately, do people know how bad the security is on their consumer devices? Security through obscurity will only get you so far these days.

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2013, 11:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: justanothercanuck on June 05, 2013, 11:49:10 pmThe trick that I find works best is to have products that nobody wants. They never get hacked.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2013, 01:03:15 am
content: I have a soft top that can be discretely unbuttoned in about 2 seconds from the outside rear quarter so somebody can reach in and open the door. I never understood why the manufacturer even bothered to put locks on the doors, never used them!As for the video, mid way through there is another example shown, I think that one was just an unlocked door, guy was walking past trying doors, you can see clearly that he stops ahead of the door with his hand still on the handle, having found an unlocked one.Not so clear about the first two shown.Honda and Acura are the same company, so if it's "only working" on those two... could be interesting.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2013, 06:45:14 pm
content: Common here, they just use a standard remote control, so that the receiver does not receive a valid lock signal ( too much interference to get a reliable decode so it is ignored) and rely on the owner pressing the button and not actually verifying the doors actually lock ( stops, switches the car off and gets out yakking on cellphone, grabs handbag and slams door, then walks to the mall lift all the while yakking on phone, presses button on key then drops it into bag and gets in lift to do some retail therapy with the hubbys credit card) and then you have an open car.Other one is that the older systems do not use a rolling code, just rely on getting a valid 10 bit data stream ( actually a 12 bit stream but typically the decoders do not actually use the 2 LSB values and ignore them, they are typically used for decoding 4 functions on a remote control), and on getting 3 consecutive valid data blocks give an output. Easy to make a encoder that rolls through the codes using some simple logic and gives 5 data bursts on each code. Will pop these in under a minute of just being near to the vehicle, either the target or another vehicle. Get in and go.As to Keeloq, it has been broken, so you have to worry, but they need to have a data stream to analyse to get the serial signing key for the remote to unlock it. There you need a laptop and a radio receiver and transmitter or a hardware implementation of the software. Get caught with that and no lawyer will be able to get you off the charges, it is only useful to steal.