remember math yeah, it was just a theory right ?....... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 07:11:27 pm
content: some ding bats

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 07:25:34 pm
content: who needs math, these people don't

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 07:34:51 pm
content: you need good in math to get those (mathless) people.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 07:58:09 pm
content: At least Vermont seems to have some brain...See you later guys, I'm going to fly around since gravity is just a theory.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 08:10:39 pm
content: boobs

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 09:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on June 29, 2011, 07:20:57 pmLove miss Georgia :- "We are smarter than ever these days"....Nope, kids are as dumb as ever if not dumber. They just think they are smart because no one is allowed to tell them they are dumb for fear of damaging their self esteem. Dumb people who think they are smart are a much bigger problem than dumb people who know they are dumb.edit: corrected dumb typo

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 09:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on June 29, 2011, 09:05:07 pmQuote from: Charles DarwinQuote from: Bertrand Russell

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 11:21:16 pm
content: It's somewhat unfair that half the population is routinely represented by dim coat hangers with long eyelashes.Still the dim market must be pretty big when they can sell jars of promises called anti aging creme for $150 a pop. These videos going some way towards explaining why.

author: Vertigo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2011, 11:27:23 pm
content: i think you guys are all missing the real issue here:are these chicks to dumb to f###?but seriously, does it occur to any of you that these girls are extremely careful not to offend any particular demographic?(Well besides intelligent people, but they wouldn't know about that)they are all very careful to not offend evolution 'believers', wile at the same time trying to strongly state their preference for creationism.does that sound like a presidential candidate to any of you?also would you guys agree that these chicks are not particularly hot?i think maybe this has to do with a selection process that is biased towards creationism, and terrified of the idea of an intelligent woman,run by people who are mentally stuck in the 30s.i wonder if smarter and prettier girls have not tried and failed for stating an unpopular opinion...

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 01:01:14 am
content: Oh my God... Can you imagine if people like this actually had some sort of actual influence? ...May God have mercy on all of us..

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 01:15:50 am
content: Quote from: Armin_Balija on June 30, 2011, 01:01:14 amThey do! Current Australian Prime Minister, just as thick and nowhere near as easy on the eye!“We of course remember the days when the leader of the house was the bovver boy, stand over man of Australian politics, now he's just pathetic and this is just a pathetic resolution moved to try and guillotine this debate through this House from a minister who only yesterday ... was complaining about debate being guillotined.” - J. GillardThis is supposed to pass as leadership.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 03:55:15 am
content: They don't realize that the building they are into would fall apart at any time if it wasn't for math. Also, designing telecommunications to get their faces on my TV screen involves a lot of math and logic. Oh, and who can forget satellites?Do they really think their computer is a collection of random chips connected in a way to look cool? Some times science advances too quick for people to assimilate it. Then they say it is some sort of black magic or something. It is amazing that people still believe that something as complex as life simply appeared from nowhere because God wished it happened. Sure, it is too much coincidence when you get to this point in which we are, definitely there's something guiding this world. It just can't be random.Now back to math, it is so stupid when people complain about it while texting with a cellphone in their hands.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 05:11:56 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 30, 2011, 01:15:50 amI thought my voice was annoying, but every time I hear Julia's monotonic voice it just makes me want kick puppy or something!But at least she is a she, has red hair, and is an unmarried childless atheist. I at least call that one giant leap for political kind.Dave.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 05:24:07 am
content: boobs + puppy + read head = pussy... cat.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 05:43:02 am
content: well theres only one thing those women are useful for........ ! and that will get boring after a while.Some people really should not be allowed out if not on a lead and should actively told how stupid they are. If people get offended about the truth then that's their problem, the truth is a mathematical certaintyIt pains me to see young people around my age and younger that have 0 problem solving skills and are just clueless about anything, and by problem solving I mean just figuring out how to get a job done which is not even a problem. If those tarts knew what general everyday problem solving is they'd be wanting that abolished too.I wowed someone at work by working out very roughly how much water had been spilt on our factory floor...... apparently the basic calculation of a volume (LxHxW) is high tech stuff......There is a young lady in a social club I am a member of and to be honest you'd struggle to tell her apart from another young lady that has a mental health problem. And even now that she knows she still asks her why she doesn't get a driving licence.....dooooooooooh, her ex boyfrind is not much more savvy either, he brings his xbox hard drive enclosure round to me to see if we can open it up and rig the sata drive inside up because he wants to access it on a computer. We ascertain that he'll need my usb/sata adapter and have to bring his laptop to me, so lets me put it back together then suggests he goes and gets his laptop. DOH

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 09:30:48 am
content: Quote from: Vertigo on June 29, 2011, 11:27:23 pmI think this is the main problem - science isn't a belief system. It is not something you have a preference for. You can't cherry-pick scientific facts based on whether you like them or not. This concept seems lost on many people. If you teach them science as an alternative to religion, and then tell them they will burn in hell for "believing" in it, guess what do they pick.I don't understand how there isn't any class on critical thinking, scientific method and logic in every single school worldwide.Quote from: ivan747 on June 30, 2011, 03:55:15 amBTW, since this is an engineering forum, there is a nice argument for this in one of Richard Dawkins' books (not sure which one right now, probably The Selfish Gene or The God Delusion). Since god is omnipotent and omniscient he could in fact create the first life on Earth and let it go from there, knowing it'll make humans after a while. Or, even better, just start the big bang and sit back. When you know all the possibilities, what would you do? Make every single species currently on earth, including millions very similar, but yet different insect species, or just make the minimum (big bang) required to get into this state?

author: Vertigo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 11:05:18 am
content: well when you really think about it 'god' is a contradiction.choices and decisions are the result of human limitations; obstacles to overcome.what kind of obstacles does an omnipotent being have?see the one thing a 'god' could never do is: everything.something that is all powerful and all knowing does not know challenges, therefore it has no needsor wants, and really nothing to do other then exist. it does not make decisions like we in our ignorance and limitationsneed to do.anywaysQuoteactually i have to wonder if any of that is actually their opinion, or if they even have one of their own.seems to me that all they are doing is scrambling to get out the right combination of words that ismost likely to make the highest number of people like them.i don't think they ever bothered to make a choice of their own, they just say whatever they think people want to hear.point being: we are not looking at stupid people so much (though allot) as we are looking at a stupid culture.and u cannot spell 'culture' without 'cult'...

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 11:28:57 am
content: It's sad really. And since these people are the majority in many countries (there was a census recently in Slovakia but I can't seem to get to the results yet. I feel like religion is on a decline here, but I could be wrong) it's hard to change. The best thing you can do is to lie in your campaign and then try to change as much as you can before getting kicked out. Luckily, in the last election an liberal party won so there is still some hope.If it were to me, if religious people (especially in USA) want to teach religion in school, they should be required to teach science in church.Actually, if it were to me, religion would be banned, but that wouldn't work out.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 11:33:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 05:11:56 amWhilst none of those attributes should ever be an impediment from holding office, I cannot see how any of them constitute a giant leap or a reason winner selection.After all the cowboys, playboys, iron ladies, washed up action heroes that we've seen make a putz of public office you'd think we'd learn.Same applies for the pageant glamours and sporting icons, they more often than not get elected to boards committees etc, based on how many runs (or pageant promoters) they have scored. Merit often doesn't get a look in.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 11:47:31 am
content: Quote from: ndictu on June 30, 2011, 11:28:57 amThankfully not here.Surprisingly to many, atheism is the fastest growing "religion" in many many countries, including the US.But because it's effectively a "lack of belief", by it's very nature it's a very laissez-faire position and hence doesn't have the political momentum like the religions do.QuoteLikely not, that makes'em fight harder.The believers just have to be continually laughed at and not pandered to, and they will hopefully eventually just all disappear into obscurity once it becomes fringe enough and embarrassing enough. It'll happen, at least in many countries, I'm an optimist.Dave.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 11:55:38 am
content: not sure if I have a religion, I mean I do but it is probably not politically correct enough to recognize. It's called freedom of speech and I find it deeply offensive (from a religious point of view of course) for anyone to expect me to respect their views

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 11:59:38 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 30, 2011, 11:33:20 amIt's the first time we've had an openly (although very politically correct so) atheist PM, a female PM, and a childless and unmarried PM (which pisses of the fundies). That upsets the apple cart, and that's always a good thing, and doesn't come along very often in politics.Doesn't mean it's any better, it just softens everyone for say a full-on atheist PM to step in and kick some arse where it is much needed.(kill this stupid chaplains in schools horror show, make the churches pay taxes, put money into the public school system instead of the catholic system etc)The first black US president ain't nothing compared to how big a step the first atheist president would be. Heck lets shoot for the brass ring and make it a single female mother black atheist pro-choice anti-war anti-corporation anti-democracy president that will prosecute Bush and uphold the total separation of church and state.Dave.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 12:09:41 pm
content: who needs math ?who needs logic and reason ?who needs the truth ?do you ?We're all atheists of other gods, some just take it one more God further

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 12:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 11:59:38 amSadly it's not the first time we've had a popularist PM that stands for nothing other than her own survival.Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 11:59:38 amNah what would be a real upset would be to have their president elected by merit rather than financial influence.A US president who wasn't financed into office would be a first, elect a non millionaire that'd be a turnaround.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 12:39:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 11:47:31 amIt gets tricky when the lack of proof is presented as proof.QuoteActually if you only count the true, honest believers we are almost there! Less and less of those are born and the clock is ticking for the old ones, so give it some time and it will converge. Society will take care of the other types of believers in the meanwhile by peer-pressure. When the oil becomes too expensive, then we will be religious-free. That's my 'prophecy'.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 12:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 11:47:31 amWell, from census data over 10 years old there were 13% atheists in Slovakia. I'm hoping for at least 30% in the recent census, no idea when the data goes public.From my perspective it seems like 90% people are atheists. However, this is people from cities, colleges, well educated and so on. Big part of population lives on small villages, each one has a church in them, everyone believes in god and nobody even questions it. They do however vote, mostly for christian, patriotic and communist (yeah, we do have one. Not in parliament luckily) parties.I'm also hoping that one day we (but probably not we, I'm not that much optimistic) can look back at this like we do now on slavery, earth being flat and other nonsense. But these guys were around for thousands of years so it's going to take a while to kick them out.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 12:55:04 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 30, 2011, 12:17:54 pmI thought the anti-corporation anti-democracy part might cover that, but I stand corrected.Make that a BROKE single female mother black atheist pro-choice anti-war anti-corporation anti-democracy president that will prosecute Bush and uphold the total separation of church and state.Dave.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 12:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 12:55:04 pmBlack is old news. Make that Chinese. Also, change the banknotes to say something else than "In god we trust"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 01:06:17 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on June 30, 2011, 12:52:54 pmThat's not surprising. The majority of non-religious people (agnostics if you will) will never say they are athiests, as they likely haven't thought that hard about it nor care enough to actually claim that title.The numbers aren't too dissimilar here in Oz if memory serves me correctly. The number of actual practicing religious people barely hits double digits, yet the census data does not reflect that.Census questions are often poorly worded. In fact here in the Oz Atheist Foundation is running a campaign to get people to answer the religion question accurately. As most put down what "religion" they tokenly "born into" (yes, that term makes me puke).QuoteIt was actually looking pretty good back in the 19th century I believe, but something went horribly backwards in the 20th century. I blame the invention of television and the yanks putting "In God we Trust" on their notes in the 50's.Unfortunately I live just down the road from the Hillsong Intergalactic Headquarters, and you'd thing there is yet another new revival coming around.Dave.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 01:18:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 01:06:17 pmExactly, most people just don't care. That's why I like the idea of militant atheism (see this TED talk:http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism.html). I don't think it's an issue here, we don't have any creationism bullshit in schools and other stuff like in the US. But getting to over 50% people that see themselves strongly as atheists will be the important step, from there on religion is a minority that will fall into oblivion.Also, "born into". Maybe we shouldn't let parents decide this. Until you are 18 you are not allowed to go to church. If you decide to do so once you are an educated and responsible adult do what you want.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 01:30:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 01:06:17 pmHave you seen the camera system inside that place? Smile and clap and sign this invoice please. Creepy to the max and clearly a very lucrative pursuit.I couldn't sleep at night with all that fake smiling happening so close.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 01:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on June 30, 2011, 12:52:54 pmBack then they didn't have the Internet, video games, facebook, television, X-factor, Justin Bieber, David Beckham, comedians like George Carlin* the IMF and of course EEVBlog.It will take less time than one might think!*Enjoy:

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 04:01:51 pm
content: haha George Carlin, some day a stupid religious moron will comes to his show with a-bomb and blow the audience away .. and then ? Frakk, then everybody will have to believe in God?Regards womans, yeah, i tell you something what my daughter asked. We watched one of these National Geogrpahic Universe something shows ... a bunch of them. After a half a day watching show she said following:"we have 200 billions galaxies, each of them let say 100 billion stars , so about 200 milion stable solar systems per galaxy ...so the chance that there is somewhere an inteligent creature like human being is huuuge ...but wait, it must be a specific planet, not to big not to small, it must be a specific distance from local sun, such planet need high destiny inner core to create huge enough magnetic field, in same solar system must be one or more gas giants to catch up the asteroids/meteors - but not to many because the planet will have not enough watter and not to less becaus the planet will have to much watter, such planet need a moon to stabilize the plant ... and so on. Then, remember, the earth inner core is a bit unique due colision with another planet .. so how it the chance on such colision if we know that direct colision between two stars is already unique? (note: this is actually what one of the Astrophysicist said "chance of colision nearly zero")And now, how big is the chance that the colision happens with exact right one angle? (note: to allow inner core fussions and not blow up both planets) and then how big is the chance that the planet will have plate tectonics which seems to be neccesary to suport evolution/life .. and the how big is the chance that there will be life? and finaly an inteligent species?So dad, if you divide the 200bil*200mil by all these "if" how many inteligent species are there?"I was about to answer like "only one - us!, there is God who created only us so don't ask such stupid questions", but finally isaid "i'm to old to count in my head, go google for all these numbers and divide by yourself" and bougt a good scientific calculator

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 04:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 30, 2011, 04:01:51 pmThere are few more factors (like you need to have both of the civilizations alive at the same time), as represented bythe Drake equation. Most of those parameters are really a wild guess.Quote from: tinhead on June 30, 2011, 04:01:51 pmI'm glad you didn't. That isn't a stupid question, in fact it is a really profound and important one. Get you daughter some books about science and astronomy. Maybe a telescope.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 05:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: ivan747 on June 30, 2011, 03:55:15 amOur planet won the lottery, likely billions of other planets didn't. If you won a national lottery would you need to believe some kind of fairy godmother arranged it for you?

author: Vertigo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 05:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 30, 2011, 04:01:51 pmplenty.that argument supposed that life as we know it here is a template for any life anywhere.there is nothing to say that life cannot evolve on planets different from our own, only that life as we know itcannot evolve on a different planet, and we only know life as it happens to exist on this one planet.oh and also the argument rarely takes time into account.if u want to do the match correctly you need to also multiply by all time between now andthat period after the big bang once the plants cooled down enuff to support biochemistry. (including biochemistry as we do not yet know it)and then theres the matter of dimensions...who is to say that intelligent life has to come in the form of a material entity?haven't u ever watched star trek?---as for things going wrong in the 20th century, i would like to recommend a documentary:a very powerful piece about psychology, how we look at ourselves, propaganda and public relations etc.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 05:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on June 30, 2011, 05:29:36 pmExactly, you are looking only at one side of the picture. Imaging all those non-existent forms of life on all the other planets non-thinking how it sucks that they don't exist. There are billions and billions of them. Lets say there is another form of life, much like ours somewhere distant. They are probably thinking the same, how lucky they are to exist. But since only forms of life that exist can think this, they are not that lucky at all. (Ew, there must be a better way to say this but I can't think of it)Also, there is something guiding this world. Natural selection. Each one of those little steps, small errors for good or bad along the way, isn't that unlikely or lucky. And the bad ones disappear and you never see them.If, somehow, you put all the attempts at life, every failed generation, every mutation that did more bad than good, you would see that what we have today is a tiny little fraction of that. But since you can't see it, it feels like everything wenttoowell to be just a coincidence.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 05:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on June 29, 2011, 09:05:07 pmThey think the society gets smarter, but the truth is that a small, reduced group of people think big.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 05:54:23 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 29, 2011, 11:21:16 pmWhere's the Like button?

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 06:05:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 30, 2011, 05:43:02 amJust keep thinking like than and...http://youtu.be/qOfxGR0K9jAGo to 3:05

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2011, 07:09:45 pm
content: speaking anti ageing productsif you haven't read bad science then do so

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2011, 12:47:12 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 30, 2011, 01:30:44 pmI can't imagine going inside, I think I'd take one step and feel the compulsive need to throw up!It's bad enough at Norwest shopping centre where they all hang out.Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2011, 12:56:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2011, 12:47:12 amIt was paid work, I wasn't there for clapping lessons.Quote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2011, 12:47:12 amAgreed, all the creepy smiling has put me right off my kebab on more than one occasion!

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2011, 11:27:49 am
content: Interesting to see so large interest in a "philosophical" topic...I think there is a non-problem greatly magnified: science and religion just work on different ("orthogonal") planes. You won't understand belief using only a scientific approach. You won't proof God exists, as you won't proof it doesn't exist.The Creationism vs Evolutionism thing seems to be a very American issue, which I think comes from a great misunderstanding (there could be some interests involved, but I don't see which they could be).Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2011, 11:47:31 amI don't consider very positively the people who just "don't care", whether they are among the officially believers or among the atheists. "Active atheism", or the glorification of science seems to me too much to just another religion.If atheism is the fastest growing religion, sorry but I can't still see those great benefits, in the world's trend. Do you think death of religions will solve so many problems? The major religions bring a message of love between people. I don't think this is a bad thing, it shouldn't hurt you so muh (apart from those using religion for their interests). Even if this is based on reasons you consider silly or wrong.Sandro

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2011, 12:07:21 pm
content: Quote from: scrat on July 01, 2011, 11:27:49 am... people of the same religion, and war between different religions.I don't care about religion as it is, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and beliefs. But it has absolutely no place in schools, and no say in science. Religion is teaching people to be satisfied with superficial explanations and slowing science progress. And I'm not talking about burning for heliocentricism here. Many modern clinical trials involving stem cell and related research is banned in many countries because it's against the religion.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2011, 01:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 01, 2011, 12:07:21 pm"Love your enemies", doesn't seem to say that.IMO, schools should at least teach what religions are, to avoid the prejudice.About the stem cells... I think that even if I was an atheist, I wouldn't kill one innocent individual just to save another. It has to do with civility rather than with religion, even if the Christians are the first to say this. Can one scientifically say an embryo is not alive? At which age does it become an individual? These are questions I hope everyone have asked themselves, but I know many people just have accepted an aswer coming from the authority.However, if science is not an opinion, history is not completely an opinion, too. The first universities came from religious institutions: not all the religious people has been so bad that wanted to obscure science.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2011, 04:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 01, 2011, 12:07:21 pmIt is a bit funny, natural selection is responsible for the religions we have today, they all need to follow more or less the same recipe for survival which boils down to :-Promise believers nice things after death (which avoids actually having to deliver nice things). Promise non-believers horrible things after death and if you can't get them to believe doing horrible things to them and killing them is OK (leaves more resources for believers).Encourage breeding of new believers.Strongly discourage any loss of belief, don't allow interaction with non-believers apart from trying to convert them. Portray non-believers as inferior and sub-human.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2011, 06:48:44 pm
content: Quote from: scrat on July 01, 2011, 11:27:49 amThe problem with allowing religions to persist is that it penetrates and influences people on a level that will have an effect on everyone.A president who believes a God is judging him will not pass a law that allows the use of stem cells to cure awful diseases.A pope will speak out against the use of contraceptives in HIV/AIDS inflicted Africa because of his religion.Bishops/Priests will molest children because they are not allowed to practice homosexuality/marry one another. (They molest the children because they feel the children will not speak up against it/not remember it. Let's not kid ourselves.)Representatives/Politicians use religion as a weapon in politics to win a favorable position in the general public's eyes.The problem with religion is that an imaginary friend influences people on a bigger scale than we could ever imagine. It has to stop. Religion only creates problems.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2011, 07:48:17 pm
content: Nicely said.Also, before this turns into a huge flamewar, remember that it's very hard, if not impossible, to reason someone out of a position they reasoned themselves into. Unless you are willing to take a step back and ask questions there is no discussion. It's preaching.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 12:26:10 am
content: Quote from: scrat on July 01, 2011, 11:27:49 amThat's why I put "religion" in parentheses. Atheism is not a religion, it is simply a lack of belief in a god, gods, or the supernatural etc.Some are more vocal about it than others though, and some even form into the groups to help spread the word of reason.Yes, getting rid of religion would solve many of the worlds problems, I have no doubt, if it's actually possible. If you don't think that, then you have not studied history and.or you have blinkers on.Actually, I have no problem with people believing in a god (i.e. a theist), as long as you are willing to admit that you have absolutely no proof for it. When people start sprouting "the word of god" and waving their fictitious "holy book" around, that's when I start to have a problem with it.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 01:08:37 am
content: Quote from: scrat on July 01, 2011, 01:21:27 pmUntil they discovered that scientific results were leading more and more against the teachings of the church, then the shit hit the fan.They (the churches) have been backpedaling into oblivion ever since.And if science has shown us one thing, it's how incorrect "the world of god" (a.k.a the bible, a.k.a *insert any other holy book) actually is, and what a joke anyone is who actually tries to interpret it and take it literally.The religious emperor has no clothes.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 01:10:34 am
content: Quote from: scrat on July 01, 2011, 11:27:49 amThat is quite possibly the greatest red herring in the history of the world.Dave.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:04:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 01:10:34 amyep seems to do nothing but create wars instead

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:13:43 am
content: Too many things to reply to...Forgive my poor writing, it's quite difficult to discuss such topics in my third language. I don't want to be aggressive, but I'm not always sure about how my words sound to you.Maybe religion is just a cultural thing (yes, I live in the country of Rome), but I don't think that lack of belief is a guarantee of one acting fairly. As being a religious has not prevented people from do horrible things. As a note, today the campain is against the Catholic church. As for the data I know, there is no proof pedophilia has been more frequent among priests than among common people. Which is really sad from both sides, BTW.I'm not trying to preach. I'm just claiming my right to believe and not being judged as a stupid by default. And I think that, maybe, I don't know history and many other things, but maybe many of you haven't seen what some "believers" do every day, without asking for anything, in the silence, to help other people (without lookin at their religion, race or other). Whether they do this for a prize after Death, or just because it's right, it's hidden in their hearts. But this must make us ask why they do this. Just as I find it extraordinary how so many people (Dave for example) spend much of their time to spread their passion for technics, helping other people to learn.I hope it's clear that for me it's impossible to proof the presence of God. Even the reasoning of going back to the origin of all (up to the Big Bang... and before) doesn't proof anything. One could however call "God" what you call chance (what is the physical law behind the random happening of Big Bang?). All I want to say is there is no prior incompatibility between reason and belief ("heart"). As a parallel, I think all of you have been in love. That's not a rational condition, if you think of it, but you do (of course, it has its evolutional origins), and it's one of the most beautiful things in the world.Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 01:08:37 amThe holy books were written by people thousands years ago, using their own language. I only (little) know the Bible, and of course there are interpretations and, worse, people taking it literally, but a message is there. Again, it's not reason. If you don't want to use your heart, too, OK, no problem for me. Just let me use it, unless I dont' hurt you, of course!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:23:11 am
content: regarding pedophelia it is that the priests are getting away with it. I have doubts of our current pope and he protect priests from prosecution. If that is the catholic religeous sentiment i want no part of it thanks. In the world of my own in my head criminals, once identified are brought to justice.I will never forget when an Italian priest was caught out abusing the alter boy (I was living in italy at the time) and his stupid stupid stupid parishioners protected him and kept the TV camera's away claiming they were defending their faith. A very very sad thing that people get brain washed so. Religion is THE most EVIL thing on this planet. ANY religion !

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:28:51 am
content: If I was brain washed at that point, I guess I won't be here discussing, I was just shouting "Satan" to all of you!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:31:33 am
content: Quote from: scrat on July 02, 2011, 07:28:51 amI know, I'm just saying it is a pity (or a crime) that much of Italy is brainwashed so as are people all over the world. even as a kid I could not understand this obsession with god as there was no proof of him, lots of silly people going to worship.... nothing

author: CodeDog
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:53:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 12:26:10 amI have no problem with people believing in science either ...x := matter;approachScientist();repeatanswer := askScientistWhatItIsMadeOf(x);x := answeruntil scientistHasNoIdea == true;i think you only have iterate the loop 5 or 6 times before you have to start believing in things that noone can prove exists

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 08:43:11 am
content: Nice approach!

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 09:01:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 12:26:10 amWell, I have solidreasonsnot to think so: human kind has demonstrated it is able to start a war for the most strange and unrational reasons, also not involving religion. Better, someone was so clever to make people fight for him using those reasons.Examples? What Hitler did before and during the WWII ("Hebrew" was just a race term), the tens of millions people killed in the USSR, ... and how about the current military missions in Libya? The dirty oil interests covered by a clean international sentence...I just want to point out that not all of what comes from religion is evil. Another thought from history is the way solidarity is applied by the state, at least here in Europe. If you're in health trouble, the state always cares of you, even if you're a criminal, even if you're an illegal immigrate, at no charge, if you have no money. Sorry, but I can't have a doubt this comes from our Christian culture, since the first hospitals came from there. Are these things such bad products of religion?

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 09:13:31 am
content: BTW, besides evolutionism is at the moment the most proved theory, I also like the idea, being the Universe a giant negative feedback system!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 10:01:46 am
content: Quote from: scrat on July 02, 2011, 09:01:31 amYou're right.There have been no wars caused purely by religion. The real reasons for war have always been power and wealth, nothing else. Organised religion has been used by the state to control the people which is why authoritarian regimes of the past have worked to convert their population to their belief and suppressed all others.It's not always religion, any ideology can be used to control people. In the Soviet Union Marxism was used to control the population and was totally atheist. Nazi Germany used fascism which used "scientific" proof that certain races are inferior and should be eliminated from the gene pool.QuoteAtheism may not be a religion but it's still a philosophical position: an atheist can't prove their is no god, just because by the absence of proof that god does exist.Some people treat science as a religion, they fall in love with a theory and will defend it whatever the costs, even if the balance of evidence is against them - this is bad science. Scientists may be able to prove that religious texts such as the bible are wrong but as soon as they use this as proof that god doesn't exist they've crossed the line.There are many scientific theories which are short on proof, the big bang being one of them. I can't see how anyone can say they're 100% certain the universe started with the big bang. It just seems like the most likely theory given the evidence. On the face of it, saying everything spontaneously appeared from nothing is not much better than saying it was made by god. It's only when you look at the evidence that the big bang makes more sense.Science should be secular and keep away from proving the existence of god or otherwise.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 12:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 02, 2011, 10:01:46 amAtheist do not set out to prove, nor do they claim that god don't exist. They simply hold the position that, given the evidence (or lack there of) it'smost probablethat there is no god. And given the even greater probability that their is no god as described by (say) the christian bible, it just gets more laughable and improbable the more you look at it.The christian god for example is no more likely to exist as stated than Thor, Ra, or any of the hundreds of other gods that have been worshiped over the eons.As the famous saying goes "We are all atheistsabout most of the gods humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." (IIRC, wrongly attributed to Richard Dawkins)QuoteNo credible scientist or atheist does, as stated above. This is one of the biggest misunderstanding about atheists.I'm as hardened an atheist as you'll find, but I will quite happily believe in any god you care to put forward, just give me enough reasonable evidence so I can reason that, based on that evidence, it's most likely true. And this is the way any credible atheist thinks.QuoteNo credible scientist in the field claims such a thing.QuoteScience doesn't do that. No brand of science has anything to do with proving or disproving any god, although some fields are much closer to it than others. Science is used to explain the world around us, and almost without fail the results of which hammer one more nail in the coffin of any god hypothesis. Not because it sets out to that, that's just the natural consequence of the things we discover.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 12:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: scrat on July 02, 2011, 07:13:43 amThere is written evidence that the Catholic church ordered it all covered it, search for the "Crimen Sollicitationis" document and all that surrounds it.And the latest authoriser of the document, the current pope (when working under JPII)Dave.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 02:04:46 pm
content: Looks like someone is reposting videos ...Just one little thing I want to say:Quote from: Hero999 on July 02, 2011, 10:01:46 amAlright, stop right there. That is NOT what theory means. Theories are things that have been proved. There are many hypothesis. I could produce hypothesis all day long, and they wouldn't be any worse that there is a magical guy with unlimited powers which he decided to use to put you to hell if you don't worship him.Gravitational theory, theory of evolution and so on. All have a lot of evidence backing them. So does the Big Bang theory. It might not be the full picture. It most likely isn't. There so much more stuff to discover. And that is what science does. Take little steps forward, throwing away anything that turns out to be wrong without looking back.On the other hand, religion decided thousands of years ago on every little thing. And no matter what, they won't change their minds. They can't accept they were wrong in the first place.Also, while we are on the subject of pope, here's another peace by Richard Dawkins:

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 03:36:36 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 02, 2011, 02:04:46 pmTheories have not been proved. Theories have been and are being tested and those that have not been disproved by testing remain (valid) theories.We don't absolutely know anything, for all we know The Matrix could be real and our bodies are all sitting in tubs of jelly imagining everything.The value of theories is that they allow us to predict what will happen in the future which is incredibly useful. That would be the basis of my objection to the teaching of creationism. Natural selection is a well tested theory which allows us to predict the future with a reasonable chance of success. Creationism tells us the future depends on the whim of a supernatural being of which we have little understanding and no real communication and so is utterly worthless for predicting the future.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 04:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: CodeDog on July 02, 2011, 07:53:13 amParticle physics researchers/scientists have answered this and with the LHC experiments they have a good chance of figuring out the mass particle too.We used to think that lightning and epidemics were the wrath of the Gods. We know better now. The scientific method has been constantly disproving such theories for hundrends of thousands of years.So say God (or whatever) exists. Does that make any difference whatsoever?! For all I can see around me, we are on our own. That is proof, until maybe one day we are proven wrong. We have to work with the most likely, based on proof, scenario. Where is the proof for religion? Show me and I will believe you! Don't misunderstand me, I want to believe you; I want to rest my mind on the soft cushion religion promises.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 04:59:10 pm
content: QuoteToday, around here, the soft cushion is caring for nothing, "panem et circenses" is the way to go, until money will finish. Making choices is the difficult thing, so people don't care to believe or not. I largely prefer someone who says to be an atheist, than one saying he's a Catholic and doesn't even know what this means.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 05:33:39 pm
content: i've been skipping this thread but for just few hours and it turn to pages. i'm shocked but not surprised religion is discussed offtopic from math. so let me throw my 2cnts. there are four books of holy"zabur", "torah""torah", "zabur/mazmur", "bible" and "qoran" (dont know whats called for the1st2nd book in english). all was originally written by God. my ancestors told me and i believe it. if its written by human, each book will have very different point because each group will try to write what they believe and try to smack the other book untruthfull in some points. but... i know you all technical people, studying those 4 books may reveal you the truth. whether they are any different, or they bring one or more the same important points. i dont have reach to the 1st 2 books, i wish i have all of them, the original version, not tampered by human writing.nowadays wars because oil and money and power since the beginning of human being. read "adam and eve and their sons kiil each other story" i believe its in every holy books. you dont need religion arguments to start a war, it can be anything (a devil in everybody self). its because lack of belief and practice of the true religion. the same if you dont follow EMC, CE or whatever standard in ee design, you can design noncompliance dangerous and noisy electronics circuit.from logical point of view of math, the deduction is like this. every matter has a beginning or the maker. a circuit board will not just pop up out of nowhere, somebody must created it, the same to plant from seed, information processing start from living thing etc etc, a challege is to find a matter popped out of nowhere (no creator). so deduction logic tells me, human must have a creator or designer, ie god. and lastly, scientists now believe not everything they can measure. think they can measure God? if you dont believe god (or rule) you better kill yourself, or if you wanna have fun living on earth. rape rob kill anybody else just for fun and kill yourself later, because you believe once you dead it will be a black dot full stop of it. amin.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 06:04:28 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 05:33:39 pmThe subject is from the parody video to a religion related video in the second post so not offtopic.Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 05:33:39 pmHow do you decide which are the holy books? If I found an old book like that, would you add it to the collection?Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 05:33:39 pmThink of something other people told you that turned out to be false or wrong. Or maybe I should say some things since I'm sure there was a lot. I'm not saying they are lying to you. They tell you this because they believe it. Why? Because they were told it by someone. Why did that someone believe it? ... Turtles all the way down.Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 05:33:39 pmAnd who created the creator? Surely something so complex it can create our entire universe in 7 days (whatever "day" means when you don't even have sun yet) can't just pop out of nowhere? The must be a god god, that created god. See, again an infinite progression that leads you nowhere.Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 05:33:39 pmI don't understand the "better kill yourself" at all. Actually, people who believe in afterlife should be the ones killing themselves (I'm not suggesting this, just to be clear). They will go to heaven and be happy forever. Atheists, on the other hand, have nothing to look for in death. After you die, that's it.About that rape, rob and kill thing, I'm assuming (sorry, maybe it's the grammar, maybe I'm just thick) you are talking about atheists not having morals. This is one of the most annoying things to me. If you are saying (as many religious people are) that morals come from bible (10 commandments etc) and atheists are therefore terrible people, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Because I (and millions other atheists) are a good people that don't kill someone because it's wrong. But religious people don't kill someone because bible tells them they can't. At least morals found in an old book are better than none.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 06:18:02 pm
content: i mean whats the point of living if you dont believe in god=afterlife? and what do you care about moral if in the end you will be nothing? if i dont believe in god, what i did in the past and future will be nothing!my ancestors only told 4 holy books, they are all are, not more not less. you can think of like 1st to 4th edition where each edition is added/ammended in content to cope with human intelligent, comprehensibility and culture during the time. the 4th is the last one we need, nothing more. more than that is nothing but our objection to what god told us, since we think we are too clever. destruction of human kind and armageddon is ahead of us. the only question is when.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 06:30:21 pm
content: this is how religion appeared and came to beand then this why it dosen't owe you hope or point of beingrichard feynman put it bluntly as 'if you don't like it go somewhere else, that how it is here'

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 06:34:23 pm
content: well i sounded like in "holocaust movie" right?as i have one belief, we should keep our moral intact, for some reason.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 06:36:28 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 05:33:39 pmAccording to this thinking process Mecha, God needs to have a creator too. Who created God? Another God? Oh, isn't that against the entire concept of God? Can't you see that you are using God for everything you can't explain, yet?QuoteFor real? I have agreed with myself what my point is here. It is I that decide why I am here, and not some group of story tellers 2500 years ago? If there is a God, and like I said earlier it would be nice if that is the case, and God agrees with my objectives, fine..all is well. If not, so be it.Armageddon? The God that 'loves us' will wipe us all out..again? Right? All it will take for us to believe is God kindly making his way here and do a couple of demonstrations. There will be some non-believers still but billions will believe. Nothing more. But no, we are 'evil' and we must forever suffer in hell for not blindly believing. Well, I am ok with Armageddon if that is what he chooses to do, as long as he is present for us to link Armageddon with God. Right?! And why should Armageddon caused by God matter anyway? If God causes the destruction of us all, then we know that God exists as well as afterlife. We can't go wrong in any case.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 06:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 06:36:28 pmMost religions believe in Armageddon of some form or other which is also backed up scientific theory. LOL

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 06:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 06:18:02 pmHumans have have a surprising and strong tenancy to believe any old crap as long as they think enough other humans believe the same thing. Maybe we evolved with it because for example being told that the hairy thing with big teeth at the front will bite your head off is a lot more efficient than having to find out for yourself.All religions rely on (or rather abuse) this fault in human nature, they all have mechanisms to increase or at least maintain the number of believers.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:03:01 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 06:36:28 pmscientist still cannot explain singularity. so who am i to explain god being. as somebody said, i agree, i cannot prove god existence. i dont have a ruler for that. its based on belief, something similar to belief that you can make a circuit working. if i dont believe i can make the circuit, i will not do it in the first place.Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 06:36:28 pmits written like that and beyond my comprehension. sometime i think human being is like experiment or just some type of matter to be circulated/recycled in the universe. but that kind of imagination is not written anywhere, so i better shut up. even i cannot explain you with concrete believeable evidence of where the soul is located. about the demonstration of armageddon, its already demonstrated in small scale, scientists/historian proved some of them. it is said, thats a warning if human dont listen to god's lesson. but as usual some people believe its just one in many of natural selection, we are free to believe whatever we want to believe.Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 06:36:28 pmevery human being are born equal. i'm not saying aethist is evil. its just belief will be different from place to place. and no, we are not meant to be in hell forever, if i believe that, as i said, i better enjoy the world as much as i can. maybe you think moral comes from your own rationale not god, on how we should treat other people with moral etc. but there was once a "Dark age" where rape, killing and slavery cannibalism you name it is a joyfull and acceptable stuffs to do. who do you think brought the way of thinking the way we live today?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:13:10 pm
content: and lastly, i believe god created math, and He like odd number! so here we are playing with it until that day.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 07:39:44 pm
content: Not specific to 'singularity', there are things we can't explain and possibly this will always be the case. But our history on this planet and beyond has tought us that we, eventually, have been able to crack things that were previously thought to be impossible, magical, witchcraft, the work of a god. Why should anything be different? It is not about disproving everything, it is about working with the scenario that is the most likely based on current proof.QuoteHave you ever tried thinking about it? A non-biased, objective thinking process. About Armaggedon, sure, why not, for the purposes of this discussion we will accept it. Where does God fit in the whole Armaggedon story? Should he not send a letter to claim responsibility, so that we know why we are being 'punished'?!QuoteDepends equal in terms of what?QuoteSure, if rape is what you (notyou) think is right, do it. Many will disagree with you as it causes a lot of pain to others, therefore not accepted by the majority. Yes, it comes from my rationale, because I am rational. I feel that rape is wrong as it causes pain and suffering that is uncalled for. What if God was in favour of rape for reproduction of our kind? Would you do it? Would the woman (I know you are a guy) just stand there for you to rape her just because God says thats the moral thing to do? No, that woman is most likely rational and would not agree with God's definitions.QuoteHow is that?God created math? Why is that? You think math is perfect? Hundrends of times users of math have had to modify math to make it work for a certain equation/theory. We have been inventing our own representations like complex numbers to help us depict and work on phenomena. Math is not God's creation, it is one of the most refined and powerful tool the human kind has created.Hey Mecha, clearly we have different opinions on religion, but there is nothing personal. Just wanted to clarify the obvious.Can I ask you something Mecha...if God visited us in his throne* here on Earth, would you go and bow in front of him?*Yeah, like the solid gold thrones decorated with zirconia and other precious stones by the church that cares for the poor and gives one when it has two.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 08:05:30 pm
content: I just don't understand why you think the god is the christian god. What I mean is, let's say that there is some god. Why do you think your version of god is any better than for example islam. Or, what is wrong with Thor, Zeus and similar ones. The "proof" behind all of these is the same, some old books, legends, myths. Can you tell me how is your version more right?Also, how many people you know that have become religious in their adult life? Maybe some, I'm sure there are a few people like that, turning to god for some reason, possibly because they are desperate and don't see any other way. But the point is, 99% religious people are brought up in religion. There is no more reason for them to be religious, or to favor a particular religion, other than the fact that they have been born into it. If you were born in say India, you would be most likely hindu. Born in ancient Egypt? Worshiping Ra all day long. Some tribe in jungle? Sacrificing a goat for the magical fireball in the sky.All I hope for is a good education, teaching skepticism, critical thinking, logic and scientific method. I don't care if you want to spend your Sunday praying. But since the catholic church has so much mass they are messing with stuff they should have no say about, like what is being taught in schools, which scientific experiments are allowed and which are not, who you are allowed to love and marry and much more.Religion shouldn't be more than a gym. You have your membership, they pay taxes, you go there, do your stuff and leave everyone outside alone. You don't go into McDonalds slapping peoples burgers out of their hands because it "offends you". Wow this is a really bad analogy... I think I had enough for today.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 08:11:35 pm
content: i like to view religion as logical thing. yes there should be nothing personal here. we are the same try to unravel the truth yet we still dont have success in achieving. god is known to create imperfect things, for reasons and intentional (the so called imperfect things can actually be defined as perfect, perfect to destory ourself, perfect to multiply ourself or whatever, it depends on your point of view). and i believe god created math perfectly, its just we have not achieve full grasp of it, you name it, complex, matrix, and all the fancy spaces and superset men tried to achieve (or so called invent). its just its not going to be given freely. its the way to mature us, just like you dont want to spoonfeed your child, you just give them pointers and let them find out themselves (and you better hope they are going to believe the pointers you have gave and expect them to comply/inline with your belief).QuoteI'll bow Him in afterlife. God will not go down to earth to show His face. if it is, everybody will become believer, and who's going to go to hell? none! hell will become inoperational that way! hell need fuel to burn, and thats us, you like it or notrape is forbidden thats rational. but why fucking a woman (with her consent) is not forbidden? it hurt the first time?! and if you did not do it correctly. and if its according to natural selection, why it hurt? why after all these generations of human kind, there is still a layer of hymen blocking the way? i believe its for some reason its there. let us not into detail of it, maybe its too far. should we discuss nudism? and its origin?@ndictu: there's no christian god, there's no islam god, there's no jew's god. there's only one God, because if they are many, they will kill each other too like us until only one remains. the name of religion is just to differentiate the "versioning" of Holy Books, my logic tells me. or maybe at least to make us able to differentiate, because thats how we communicate, through difference of language/meaning of vocal and writing. we are not given the ability to communicate by thought. if we are, then it will be a lot lot easier to convey god's messages. and again, hell will not be able to operate!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 08:19:12 pm
content: QuoteHahaha Mecha, come, let me give you a hug.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 08:32:38 pm
content: one more last thing. try to throw away every "imperfect" human made rules and regulations ever created on earth. let us live in a world without a rule. then we'll learn the "true nature" of what the natural selection is. god has provided one (rule) its just us who do not listen.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 09:01:39 pm
content: Ohpleasetell us what that rule is Mecha! I will tell it to manager so we can live by it and also to that 16 year old girl killed by a falling branch from a tree.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 10:18:33 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 09:01:39 pmsadly thats not given for free, even if its laid out in text in front of you. you have to seek it yourself, if you ever have the dream. even myself still struggling to understand the logicand i'm no expert on this and should not talk in great depth, i'm afraid i can be mistaken. and i believe to scientifically study it, the same to the rest of studies, ie will need more than one room sized of writing and tracking down of history. but wait... you can google right?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 10:36:32 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 02, 2011, 06:04:28 pmThe atheists have no morals thing is the oldest argument in their pathetic arsenal, and has been absolutely demolished to death in every sensible debate from here to kingdom come.Funny how all those people on earth had morals long before all of the holy books came along.It has been well researched that there are survival advantages to kinship and kindness.Dave.

author: Vertigo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 10:40:07 pm
content: the root problem here is something atheist share with religious people more often they either of themwill admit;our apparent unwillingness to accept our own ignorance.there are questions, where do we come from, are we alone, where do we go when we die, why does michael bay get to keep making movie, etc etc,to which we will not know the answers in our life time, and perhaps not afterward.anyone who can accept this has no need for religion of any kind.no religious person has ever been able to provide me with a reason to believe that was not entirely based on emotion,and devoid of any real logic.any religious person here who can provide me with one wins a packet of fresh peyote seeds so that after 20-30 yearswhen they mature u can have a little shamanic ritual of your own and understand just where the idea of a god comes fromin the first place

author: Vertigo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 10:43:27 pm
content: WHY GOD! WHY!!!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 10:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: scrat on July 02, 2011, 04:59:10 pmFor once, I agree with you.What it means to be a Catholic (or any christian I believe) is generally considered to be found in the Nicene CreedHere is nice summary of what it says:We believe in one God.We believe God made everything.We believe a virgin gave birth.We believe Jesus suffered, was crucified, died, and was buried.We believe Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days.We believe Jesus ascended into Heaven where he sits at the right hand of God.We believe Jesus will physically return to judge the living and the dead.We believe in one Church.We believe in baptism.We believe in the forgiveness of "sins"We believe in the resurrection of the dead.We believe in everlasting judgement and everlasting life.If you don't truly believe in all those things, then you are just picking and choosing and might as well go start your own religion and fall into the ever spillaraling trap of having no reliable "holy book" or "word of god", and hence you are just making shit up. (The bible is course is mostly made up, but lets not go there...)And if you you do believe in all that stuff, then you have to take all the other crap in the bible as truth too. All the real nasty horrible shit in the original edition, and the silly stuff like the talking snake et.alDave.

author: Vertigo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:01:27 pm
content: actually the bible is not made up.the problem is really very simple:all religions as we know them, aside from real screwball cults like scientology, are actually reruns of older religionsin a new context.when you look at for instance christianity, it can be traced all the way back to the shamanic tribes of scandinavia andgreenland.thing is it goes back all the way to before written word, to times of only art and oral traditions.in oral traditions there is allot of anthropomorphism, because if u make a really symbolic story then the words maychange over time and details may get lost, but the essence of the story stays the same.thus we can still extract the old beliefs of these older traditions, for instance in the life of jesus.which, incidentally has over 95% of its attributes in common with a whole shopping lists of other religions,all apparently sharing some of the roots of the traditions.jesus was:-born from a virgin at the end of december-died at a cross-was resurrected-etcapparently so were:-buddah-horus-hercules-zeus-coetzalquatlwhen we look at the people who worshiped these various deities we see that their beliefs consist mainly of:astrotheology, shamanism and fertility worship.so what do we know that all these peoples know about, is important to them, and shares these attributes?what is truely the oldest religion in the world?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 06:36:28 pmOh, it gets better than that.Even if you believe, and do all the right things, you have to live in eternal judgement, subservient under god. That sounds like fun.And because you are human, you are automatically a sinner and doomed to everlasting hell unless you devote your life to god and pray every day for forgiveness.What a hoot.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:11:26 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on July 02, 2011, 06:50:04 pmNeurologists (among others?) are now at a point where they think they have an almost complete understanding of how and why we are partial to believe in a god or other authority figure, and what part of the brain is responsible for it.Of course, the religious use it as evidence of gad having a little part inside all of us etc...Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 07:03:01 pmExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so said Carl Sagan.At least science has a theory for something based on some evidence, and works hard to try and fill the gaps in our knowledge.Religion offers, well, nothing. Just a warm fuzzy, and threats of hell.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:27:22 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 08:11:35 pmErr, then why does the bible itself condone rape? (among many other nasty things)It does, many times, go read it.Of course, nobody believes that Old Testament rubbish right? The New Testament is so much better, and obviously must be the correct one, right?Oh that's right, it's ok to have slaves in the New Testament. I'll take two please!Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:29:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 11:04:44 pmI wonder if any of the religious participants can tell me if babies that die on birth go to heaven or hell. And who is the one that takes the decision? What if I commit a terrible sin and spend my entire life making up for it? The concept of heaven and hell is digital, whereas life is analog. Who is the one deciding for me and on what basis? Maybe if hell is low on fuel I should go to hell to keep the fireplace going?To put it like Pease when asked about SPICE, "Where is the trash can?".Clearly we are beyond the point of a factual debate. It is now up to the big guns (time and peer-pressure) to take over.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:30:22 pm
content: Funny doco in 10 parts:Dave.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 11:15:17 pmgood people go to good place. bad people go to bad place. thats the promise (empty promise?) what i still dont understand in christian is why there is "new tastement"? why dont stick to "old tastement"? my ancestors told me "new tastement" is a lie made by the "old church" sorry to say christians, thats what i learnt. in the 4th edition, there's a guarantee from god that the 4th edition of holy book will never been tampered by human false statement, ie, the content will not be changed from the original, thats the god's challenge to anybody no matter how nasty they are! thats what i hold until now. but yet, to prove that statement is from god or just by another man will need an extraordinary works. who am i to explain singularity. anyway!... does atheist believe in ghost?edit: i've made mistake in book order earlier. "torah" is the first book, now hold by jew's. "zabur" 2nd is the lost religion. there's one religion i know but their book is not listed, ie buddha.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 11:29:11 pmneither. thats enough a simple answer. a complete answer will need pages. its written in 4th edition and all its supplementary materials.Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 11:04:44 pmthe analogy is like a boss and workers. any workers who work hard will get better promotion/raise in salary. a hoot?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:50:51 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 11:48:07 pmSo? Where?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2011, 11:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 11:50:51 pmbelieve it or not, in the middle of bridge/border between heaven and hell. scientific prove? none! you may as well call it bullshit.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:00:50 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 11:58:51 pmbelieve it or not, in the middle of bridge/border between heaven and hell. scientific prove? none!Forever?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:02:20 am
content: Quote from: Alex on July 03, 2011, 12:00:50 ami'm not expert on that. to god's faith i think. as i edited post above. you can call it bullshit if you like. but i'm free to express my belief right?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:05:52 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 02, 2011, 11:40:24 pmNo, that comes under the supernatural banner.Dave.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:06:52 am
content: Quote from: Alex on July 03, 2011, 12:00:50 amForever?Purgatory.. otherwise known as planet earth.. yes you get to do it again and again

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:11:27 am
content: Of course you can, by all means. I just wanted to see how deep the rabbit hole is; you are reverting to god every time you can't explain something.It has been an informative discussion, cheers fellas.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:20:26 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 03, 2011, 12:05:52 amwhat is supernatural banner? in the sense of provability, god is the same as ghost (for now). so god's is under supernatural banner as well?@gregariz: purgatory is not our term. resurrection is not our term. but "temporary punishment" yes (wiki on purgatory), but not to "died newborn baby", temporary punishment is in hell for sinner but believer. non believers get to hell forever! thats an absolute certain lesson i got. but newborn baby i still dont know the detail, same case to people who have not reach to the true "guide/lesson", they are in the middle. i should ask more expert people later. non believer is the one who have got the chance to listen to the "true" "guide/lesson/speech" but not believing it.edit: i just read thouroughly the wiki purgatory... yes, its in our dictionary = temporary punishment.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:20:50 am
content: night Alex!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:58:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 11:27:22 pmIt doesn't! But then with selective quotation you can have a supposed biblical support for almost any nutjob theory you wish to promote.I was brought up in a deeply christian household and saw so many example of the very best and the very worst amongst individuals. There is no such thing as a holy war and there is no basis in the bible or the Qoran for that matter for having one.Religion and science can coexist and belief should be a personal thing. Person belief is not license to be shoving religious views onto others likewise lack of belief still have respect for others to hold different views. Hell the flat-earthers are free to believe what they wish too.Everything in human understanding is finite, has a beginning and an end, it's been suggested elsewhere that god is all that doesn't fit that scope. Personally I don't have an problem with that concept, the engineer in me says OK if I accept the big-bang theory (I do) then who put the dynamite there to kick it off?What I cannot cope is how wailing, chanting, swinging pots of incense, bulletproof popemobiles, sodomising alter boys, crocheted hats, jihad beards, caste systems and all the other malarkey is supposed to be stomached as an integral part of religion.I can only speak for the christian bible but after many readings am quite sure it has no mandate for such behavior. My limited understanding of the Qoran comes to the same conclusion.If nothing else Christianity (or others) have proven to be a good basis for community rules and behavior. Treat others as you would wish to be treated is a pretty good basis for any community.The was nothing christian about supposed catholic and protestant battles in Northern Ireland, there is no Muslim basis for blowing one's self up in perfectly good aircraft. Much of what we see posing as religion is fabricated bullshit for financial advantage.As I mentioned previously religion brings out the very best and very worst in people and its been an ideal tool for the ideologue since time immemorial. Church committees are full of self serving politicians and real estate agents. Once a year Christians hell bent on telling others how they should live at the same time those church communities have many charitable souls who are driven to helping others without request for reward in this life or in any other they may believe in.Idealogues hell bent pushing their religious or anti religious views onto others are the problem and have been for as long as man walked the earth.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 01:07:17 am
content: Quote from: Alex on July 03, 2011, 12:11:27 amWhy is that a problem? It only becomes a problem when all the trappings, superstition and other mumbo-jumbo gets added. You cannot prove or disprove god. The sad part is that any understanding is generally restricted to either belief of a wise old white robed man in the clouds or an absence of explanation.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 02:13:32 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on July 03, 2011, 12:58:01 amReligions exist because the views of that religion are shoved onto others. Religions which no longer think they have a duty never mind license to shove their views onto others are weak and will eventually become extinct.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 07:28:26 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on July 03, 2011, 12:58:01 amyes. i have limited exposure to christian. but i believe they are very close neighboor in history compared to muslim and the lesson should be not far off, except maybe in small parts of "new tastement" ammendmend. and anything you heard bad about them is due to some propaganda by other believer from different religion, specific party or for their own benefit. both christian and muslim, the "true" believers of the holy books are peaceful society, the same to what aethist think as morality. we have about the same direction and thought about life in this world. the difference is what we thought in the afterlife and the way we pray. for god sake, people who blow shit up in aircraft are either "non muslim" or deviate from the "true lesson". and now the muslim are labelled as terrorists, muslim women are forced to take off their scarft and hence to show off in what "muslim definition" as their private part (woman hair and neck) in some countries because the government are afraid the women bring bomb in their scarf. what kind of shit is that? is that the definition of morality? try to impose what you believe on others? even if its violating others belief and consent?well, the debate of religion is endless. you can talk whatever you like, i can talk whatever i like. but at least, i have something to believe in afterlife, and in what way a "specific detail" in life shold be done such as the way we pray, the way we deal with people of different religion (or aethist), the way of life the way of mortgage the limit of whats called private part etc etc. makes me thinking (in scientific or math logic manner, or algorithm or problem solving whatever you want to call) the bottom line is..a) if indeed god is not exist (aetheism is true) then it doesnt matter what we believe or not, we are all heading to the same direction, ie a BIG blank full stop. no matter what you did good or bad on earth.b) but if there is a god, then i'm as a believer should have a very slight, if not more, chance to go to a place called heaven.so for aethist the chance are they either go to full stop, or.. hell i'm afraidbut for believer the chance are either full stop, hell or heaven. thats the possibility. a possibility that cannot be proved, yet cannot be disproved.

author: Vertigo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 09:01:08 am
content: you guys are running around the periphery of the issue.is there anyone here with the slightest interest in true origins and proper context?see this is what i mean when i say atheists have some things in common with religious people;the unwillingness to even look at the heart of the matter.atheists are as guilty of believing whatever suits their emotional sensitivities best as religious people are.THE TRUTH CAN BE KNOWN.anyone who continues to speculate without looking at it every bit the dickhead they accuse the opposition of being.but the sad fact is that nobody here seems to have the slightest interest in knowing, yet continue to speculate and express opinionson those things you refuse to look at.thus all of you claim to know the truth, but none of you ever really looked.so stop pretending dickheads!again, the truth can be know, what excuse do you atheists you have for not knowing it?

author: Vertigo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 09:27:25 am
content: Quotewrong.you only think that because you have never really looked.if you look at where the ideas come from in the first place, you will understand.and when you understand you will no longer have a reason to believe.and that is the reason you do not look.also i will remind you that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, so it needs to be proven, and does NOT need to be disproven.not until some1 comes up with a valid reason for believing which is not based on emotion.which in the history of humankind has not happened yet.the truth is that everything you believe ammounts to nothing more then severely distorted versions ofstories that came from oral traditions, and had absolutely no literal meaning whatsoever.the stories you read in the bible are merely a symbolic story in which all actors are antrapamorphisedbecause that is the best way to preserve the intended meaning of the story in an oral tradition.what was it about? it was quite simply a description of the world these people lived in.the story of jesus is a symbolic story ment to teach people about the behavior of the sunso they would know when to sow and when to harvest etc.lets break it down shall we:-born on christmas:december 21st/25th marks the winter solstice, and people experience the shortestperiods of daylight in the year, the vegetation is dormant and the land looks dead.during solstice the sun no longer shifts its position over the horizon like it does the rest of the yearand for 3 days it is unmoving. the sun is dead, untill the end of solstice when the days grow longerand he sun once more moves across the horizon.-born of a virgin:during this period in december the sun will come up between the legs of constellation virgo.-the 3 kingsactually the belt of orion, which at christmas rizes with its 3 stars aligned virtically.-the guiding starthis is sirius, which is very bright and comes up before orion's belt, giving us the 3 kings following the star towards the sun.want more? check out those vids i posted.there is no excuse for opinion when knowledge is attainable.

author: dimlow
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 09:58:06 am
content: Boring drivel, the thread should be closed, there are no gods, only other people that want to make profit from others insecurity by scaring them to give to the church/cult all there money. Complete and total crap. Ha God and religion books, the are much better books to read than the bibles. tried reading one once bored me after the first page.Yesterday my son said to me out of the blue.. Dad the bible cant be true, if it was, we would all be deformed because of Adam and Eve, they would have had to have baby's with their kids!I don't know were he got this from, but yea, sounds write to me. Does god support fucking your children, if he exits he certainly fucked his ?

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 11:05:10 am
content: Quote from: Alex on July 02, 2011, 11:29:11 pmObviously if the niceness level is in the invalid region during the death clock strobe you get undefined behavior. But since everyone is "born in sin" it seems god hates people by default so you go to hell in that case.Also, this argument is going nowhere if you are not willing to change your position. Maybe a little open mindedness ...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 11:45:52 am
content: Quote from: Vertigo on July 03, 2011, 09:01:08 amWhat "truth"?Atheism is a LACK OF BELIEF in a god(s) or the supernatural, nothing more. A position usually arrived at through reason, and because the evidence for such just disappears into nothing with the advance of science. Not that there has really ever been any evidence anyway.What makes you think you can demand something more of atheists?Not everyone wants to spend their life finding out the "truth" to life, the universe, and everything. Or where or how the various holy books came into being etc.But if you've got an interesting articles that shed more light on various matters, throw it our way, some might want to read it. But don't demand that we must know some "truth".Atheists usually just want to get on with life without ridiculous religious influence upon it everywhere we look.Dave.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 12:02:07 pm
content: this is nothing in human domain but "a measurement problem". let us not discuss what cannot be measured.http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 02:49:20 pm
content: Thought this thread was about Maths?Anyway for some interesting reading have a look at books by Alan Watts.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_WattsThat's all.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 03:37:33 pm
content: Interesting, I last left this thread its was more math than metaphysics, but what a turn.Anyway, back to math one thing not posted here is the 'Horowitz and Hill' of mathematics, a book for the non-mathematician who needs advanced math:http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Birth-Numbers-Jan-Gullberg/dp/039304002X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_topWritten by an amateur mathematician, a physician actually, on his Mac, purely for the love of math. IIRC it was printed on his laser printer and off to the publishers almost as the original print, with cartoons made by his son. Sadly he died of a heart attack while updating the draft for the second edition, so this is is first and last text as a magnum opus.If you're interested in the roots of modern mathematics in Islamic and Hindu culture all the way to calculus, this is it.For example, Algebra is derived from al-jabr, from the Islamic text:

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 03:56:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 10:45:24 pmPeople .... after so many of pages, not even one found to admit that he was helped by his God ?( Yes Dave the G in God goes large )Well, I have experienced a true miracle, and I have proofs, plus and another person friend of my,who was an eyewitness of that miracle.Do you know what happened to both of us after the miracle ?I do tell the story to the others, and I am full of pride and joy even today .. My faith to God become more rock solid..And about my own friend ... He hides it even from his own family, so to not be considered as wacko !!Yes that's how the majority in our society acts when they are experiencing a miracle.They hide it .How I can tell that I did experienced a miracle, and it was not a random event of good luck ? (if there is such of thing)Well I visited the church, and I had a solo monologue for about 15 minutes explaining my problem.And as soon I got back in my shop and 10 minutes later, things started to happen.And in two hours time, I was in front of the object that I had lost, and I was seeking to find.I have no problem at all, to write the all story in detail, but we are out of topic all ready,and if Dave gives the OK, I will do it .

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 05:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 03, 2011, 03:56:28 pmPlease tell the story and provide us with the proof. But to me this sounds just like the good old friendconfirmation bias.Sorry I meantselection bias. Basically, think of the many times you wanted something to happen (like finding things) and it didn't. Once it did. It was bound to, sooner or later.Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 03, 2011, 03:56:28 pmI don't know if I really don't get this thread or many of you didn't even watch the videos in the first and second posts, but if you did you would know this thread is about "not believing" in science, creationism, religion and related stuff. That word "math" in title comes from the first video which is a parody of the second one.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 06:40:31 pm
content: ndictuAs I stated I will only accept the permission of Dave.The story it is an Ultra strong one, and its not the only one, that had happened to me until now.I had share this specific story, and with Greeks, that we have an common religion,and the result was that they started to nag, that they did not had such response as I did,in the thousands of their problems, when they ask for help from above.I like to believe that here comes the word " faith " in to the game.And another thing that called like " do you deserve to be helped " ?I have never cause harm in another human, but I do enjoy to tease the Fluke fan boys from time to time.Lol

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 07:53:11 pm
content: case in point

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 09:52:09 pm
content: It's not easy to follow such a strong discussion, when you find 3 more pages after less than a dayAnd doubt, as usual, is there, to put to the test my faith. I'm quite sure a little doubt sometimes assails the atheists here, too.At least,QuoteI can say that when you ask what life means, when you see some situations and things which is impossible to describe, you find there must be something more than "reality" (meaning all you can perceive, measure, ...). The words "real" and "true" don't have the same meaning (at least their translations in my language!).Prayers, practices, ceremonies, are the form this is expressed. Rituals are common to civil life, too. So they're not worthless, if you agree with they're underlying principle.Just a poetical point of view? Yes, I'm a man, not only an engineer!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 10:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 03, 2011, 03:56:28 pmThis is a free and open forum, you can write whatever you like (within reason).Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 10:28:46 pm
content: Quote from: djsb on July 03, 2011, 02:49:20 pmNo, the thread is about religion.The very first post is a video parody of the recent Miss USA contest where they asked the contestants if evolution should be be taught in schools. IIRC, only two of the girls had firm views that it should, and once of those girls won the contest.Many say it's her answer to that question that got her the title.Dave.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 11:05:13 pm
content: Physicist rely on mathematician to model universe. but our mathematics is incomplete, so what?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 11:39:29 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 03, 2011, 10:16:08 pmSince when the miracles contain reason ?Miracles belong to the sphere of the paradox or to the unorthodox, for the common mind.Any way I will prepare the text , and I will post it soon ..

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2011, 11:50:44 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 03, 2011, 11:39:29 pmI'm looking forward to that, although anecdotes are not evidence.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 12:14:29 am
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 03, 2011, 11:50:44 pmFor your information you will not get any evidence that you can use it in any way.Anecdotes are made up stuff, that was made so to serve a purpose,mostly to amuse or cause fear to the small children.And so do not expect to read in my text, about small green people with antennas in their heads.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 10:17:31 am
content: No, anecdote is a story about something that happened, or at least the presenter insists it happened. And it is not evidence, simple like that.If you tell me your story it won't be a evidence of god, the same way if I tell you a story how I was abducted by aliens it won't be an evidence of aliens.For some reason many people would mark the first one as a miracle, and the second one as a delusion of a batshit crazy person. But from a scientific view they have the exact same credibility. None.BTW, isn't faith based on ... well faith? If you have evidence that would mean it's not faith anymore.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 12:11:20 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 04, 2011, 10:17:31 amFor this question, you should ask Thomas.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 03:27:27 pm
content: Even 100 people told you the same story, i bet you still will not believe, and you hope you'll see it with your own eyes. in myreply #117 {page 8}, i've provided a link of scientific proof in accordance/tally with the "old writing" i've found sometime ago. No matter how much evidence you hear, you will not satisfy with denial that you ask and challenge to see the Face of God, which is not gonna happen which i described the reason why in a way as much as understandable as possible by a layman but logical imho thought earlier, ie hell need to be operated, and my "assumption" is we are just God's Experiment. But i accepted that, we are like circuit boards that the Maker can do whatever He want, as i said you like it or not. but thats just maybe my devil imagination, beyond my domain/power, beyond the writing of the Book. But remember you have a choice, God embedded "good" and "bad" inside us. Thats why people argue, human is imperfect being, just because of that.Here's some quotes from "Old Writing" that scientist proofs found later to be true. But as usual, you will not believe it and try to find another reason to deny it. Because your heart still not opened up, you say its because of "Natural Selection", but the truth is the "Supreme Being" still not allow it to... heh! do i sound like a preach?from scientist way of saying, its measurement problem, we are not there yet, not even close!1) How to cheat light years of travel may lie inside blackholes and wormholes... or stairways(Al-Maarij 70:3-4) - The Ascending Stairways2) Big Crunch will occur in form of space folding. The known and proven "Big Bang" onced termed 1000+ years ago as "The First Creation" will occur again. Who can prove it? None! i guess.(Al-Anbiya' 21:104) - The Prophets3) Disbeliever want example? a very good one! Mosquito! why Natural Selection didnt perish mosquitos from earth? they are so damned annoying! there are many more example/proofs mentioned somewhere else for disbelievers who still dont believe, even some of them are proven scientifically(Al-Baqarah 2:26) - The (Female) Cow4) The beginning of Fetus once lifeless, and then at some point (go google, i'm not sure how many weeks) will become life, born and dead again when old, and then what to not believe?(Al-Baqarah 2:28) - The (Female) Cow5) The God (or the old man writer?) make fun of physicist who try to find the truth. You can look as deep as you want into space or atom, you will find another mystery until your sight (brain) fatigue. isnt it like that? since Galileo and before? or after till now?(Al-Mulk - 67:3-4) - The Sovereignty6) THIS is the very basis ofDarwin Theoryand hence the basis of "Godless Ideology" - a dialog that angel knew human cause destruction, because once before the first man Adam, human was created and lived on earth until destruction/Armageddon. scientists/archeologists proved they are ape like shape dated long before Adam. Perharps they are who lived with dinasours.(Al-Baqarah 2:30) - The (Female) Cow7) and lastly, we (Jinn/ghost included) can travel to Heaven using scientific/practical means, but only with strength (knowledges, resources and tools etc) AND allowance/admittance from God.(Ar-Rahman 55:33) - The BeneficientRemember these writing dated 1000++ years ago (if you care to search) where people still live with stick and fire. and the story tells that the origin of the content is from a man who cannot read. You may say they are from the lost Atlantis of advance tech knowledge, but where are they? why not a single trace of their advance technology has been found? could have been eaten by dinasours? or armageddon?You may read it as scientific material for study, dont treat it as religious book to avoid bias. You may pick which one you prefer, they are scattered (and sometime grouped) within chapters:1) History of mankind (past and future) and creation2) The science and Math (as mentioned above and inlink #117) but dont expect you will find fancy terms such as blackhole, big bang or electron. you have to translate the old terms.3) The moral! Guide to Aetheist?!4) and then, the crappy afterlife, Heaven, 7th dimension, talking snake/cow etc. and not the least, the threat of Hell!You may laugh and skip when it comes to God's promise/threat/story in afterlife. but when you come across something strange and un-understandable, you may think twice, it may lead you/scientist to the next description of uni/multiverse/atom creation. Some say its the AoE of life, no hard math in there, and also can be a good bedtime/horror storyYou prefer someone to prove if its true, some have been proven, accidentally. the burden has been taken. now, its your turn to find even a single mistake (proven to be wrong) in that "old writing". and its guaranteed what you read is the original content the same as 1000+ years ago when its first written/passed down, not a single alphabet added or missing! so they said (and its in the book). I'd love to hear prove/disprove as well from fellow Christians (Bible)Sorry if this one is too long. I'm not preach, just a normal guy who love and enjoy to experimenting and doing evil things. But it is written in the book that it is believers duty to spread the words, esp to who have not reach the "Teaching/Lesson" (and esp when it comes/involving to dumb stories relating to God, Nonexistency, Darwinian etc) so i'm obligue and tempted to post this long story FWIW. Bear in mind its not by force (how could i?), but it is up to you to believe or not. and i dont have a "slightest" care (or pity) if you dont! as long as you are not me. We live in Free World here, if indeed its truly "Free" that i can walk naked (and stroke!) as i likeps: please note stroking and walking naked is forbidden in the Teaching, except in emergency case and condition

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 03:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 03:27:27 pmThat... doesn't even make sense, never mind being 'proof' of anything. Whywouldmosquitos die out through natural selection? You've got the mechanism exactly backwards, plus appear to be looking at it from the point of view of selecting for traitswewant...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 03:51:02 pm
content: Quote from: baljemmett on July 04, 2011, 03:41:22 pmmy view could be wrong. i'm just a simple human. but if darwinian theory of evolution is right. why there is a large gap of missing part in history? why our grand grand father never told us that his grand grand father told that his grand grand father looks like an ape? or fighting the dinasours? why jesus face look alot charming than i am? why x-men still not on sight? will human extinct, because of cancer? because cancer cells are more dominant in the law of "natural selection"? etc etc.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 04:31:44 pm
content: "why there is a large gap of missing part in history?"Cause we haven't found then YET, archeology is not CSI on TV."why our grand grand father never told us that his grand grand father told that his grand grand father looks like an ape?"Language during the stone age aren't exactly as capable as what we have today, and think of how much knowledge was lost to the ages even though the people of old resorted to carving them on stone."fighting the dinasours?"Might want to brush up a little on paleontology."why jesus face look alot charming than i am?"Cause it is an important ($$$) painting so the artist did his best?"why x-men still not on sight?"Cause it's a comic, and evolution does not work like that."will human extinct, because of cancer? because cancer cells are more dominant in the law of "natural selection"? etc etc.Most illness do not kill us until we are old enough to produce offspring's, it is actually counter productive to kill your host which is why the amount of symbiotic microbes around our biosphere outnumber the harmful ones by several orders of magnitude.The biggest difference between science and religion besides I-can-say-any-shit-I-want-if-I-can-back-it-up is that science readily admit that it is incomplete but improves day by day (the attackers love to say"but science STILL can't"), whereas with a religion you get "fundamentalists" that try to hug the long outdated books.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 05:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 03:51:02 pmOh for the love of flying spaghetti monster. Yes, it is wrong. Very wrong.1) There isn't a gap. This is the oldest argument in the book. There is evidence (fossils etc) of many many evolutionary steps. You people always pick two and ask "where is the missing link? and when they do find it (not that it is important or that they are looking for that specifically, but whatever) you now have 2 gaps and you ask the same question. Most animals aren't fossilized. They were eaten by other animals and bacteria, not leaving much behind.2) Ignoring the fact that there was no language and good communication back then, the process is very very slow. Your parents are different than you, but not by much so you don't care. Everyone along the way saw their parents and their kids like the same, but there was always a tiny difference. It took ages before it accumulated into something you notice.3) Evolution, or more precisely, natural selection doesn't work like that. There is no best, and there isn't an obvious goal. (If there was, it would certainly not be xmen). Genes do not care about you. The only thing that matters is what can replicate more. If there is a mutation that somehow makes that individual produce more offspring, it'll dominate and get widespread. I'm not an expert on this and therefore any explanation I can come up with won't do this justice. Please, do yourself a favor and go read something else then religious text. I can recommend Richard Dawkins' Selfish Gene.4) Cancer thing, as explained by Hypernova is irrelevant to your genes. You don't see many young people, or kids, dying from cancer. Why not? Because if they do their "bad" DNA doesn't get replicated, and only those that are "immune" to this reproduce. For all natural selection cares, your head might explode once you got enough offspring. You are just a container for DNA that tries it's best to get copied and then it just doesn't care. There are animals that die, or get eaten by their partner, after sex. Doesn't seem like the best evolution? But it is, for the genes. Once there is offspring the carrier is useless. (Of course, there could be more offspring later, but let's not complicate things right now. Read the book)5) Even if 100 people told me, no I would not believe. You realize that there are probably thousands of people that claim they have been abducted by aliens right? Why don't you believe them? There are millions of people that believe in a different god, or gods. What's wrong with their stories?6) I'm not even going to read the excepts from the books. You realize you are basing your entire world view and beliefs on some book, and then you argue with me using that book. It's a circular logic. If I write a book like that, bury it for a few centuries and then people will believe in that "because it's in the book" and people say "but you can't prove that, it's bullshit" and they say "no it isn't, see, it's in the book". Does that sound like a good logic to you?QuoteNo, you haven't presented evidence. Anecdotes aren't evidence. Book can't be evidence of itself. There isn't a single peace of real, hard, scientific, repeatable and peer reviewed evidence in favor of religion.But that quote is exactly what you are doing. Reality filter. There is so much evidence against you I could spend my entire life writing it here and I would die before I could cover a reasonable amount.I'm getting quite tired of this thread. If you want, you should read The God Delusion or any similar book. Don't stop, don't reject it. For a day forget about religion, give the book a shot and see. There is so much wonderful stuff in science that bible and similar religious texts seem like the essays kids write in the first grade. It's up to you if you decide to give it a try or stay where you are, rejecting every word against it.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 06:03:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 03:27:27 pmWhen there is no evidence to support a belief the word of believers is all you have. That is why a duty to spread the word is a strong feature of almost all religions.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 06:46:00 pm
content: I was just going through google reader and today's SMBC comic is on topic so here it is:http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2296#comic

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 07:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hypernova on July 04, 2011, 04:31:44 pmhttp://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/human-and-dino-fossils-togetherif there's no gap in history, i believe there should be no need to decypher the cryptic writing on stones and caves. everything should be smoothly translated in whatever means of revolutions, stones->animal skin->paper->hardisk.Quote from: ndictu on July 04, 2011, 05:59:25 pmany link to full content? for the sake of information sharing. (attach here or PM) i can see from wiki it issold2 millions copies!i dare to argue because it is not my words (challenge of god in 4th edition). when i cannot answer i'll refer to holy book (god). when aethist cannot answer, they refer to "God Delusion"? which is clearly written by a man? from my limited wiki reading, he discussed morality originates from man, religion is not needed. that is from his survey? did he survey criminals? did he discussed when the first morality exists? did he explained why criminals, violence, corruption/bribery in politics happened? is homosexual and nudism which gain popularity be moraled? and again... link please? i need the full text if its truly for the good of mankind, notprofitand try to create another "godless" religion. i've provided the free link to one of holy book for free.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 07:42:00 pm
content: Yes, books tend to sell copies. I'm not going to provide you with an illegal copy, but if you want I'm sure you could find it yourself.But don't forget that you will go to hell for stealing it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 08:37:38 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 04, 2011, 07:42:00 pmsome people say stealing (or modern words pirating) is a moraled behaviour?or whats worst can it be? a big blank full stop when i died? and i'm sure you are not going to hell for providing me one

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 08:53:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 08:37:38 pmVisit your local library if you don't want to download it. To be honest, I don't see much difference between the two. You borrow the book from the library and read it, the author gets nothing other than what the library paid for it in the first place. You download it and read it, the author gets nothing other than what the person who scanned it paid for it. The main difference is when you download it there won't be others who can't borrow it while you're reading it. The only harmful thing is, everyone downloading books will cause the libraries to close.As far as I'm concerned the most compelling evidence in favour of evolution are the experiments we humans have done by breeding animals over the milliner. Look at how different one breed of dog is to the next and it doesn't take much imagination to see how nature can go from the dinosaurs to humans over 68 million years, given that there's less than 15,000 years between even the most distinct breeds. A more striking example are sheep which are now a distinct species in their own right as they can no longer produce fertile offspring with their wild ancestors.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 08:54:29 pm
content: I don't necessarily have a problem with the concept of 'God' as I simply do not know. The problem I have with ideas that are based on various 'books' is that at the time of their writing the vast majority of people in the middle east (and elsewhere) were illiterate. Not being able to read or write they were forced to repeat stories by word of mouth which lead in the end to 'chanting' their ideas in order to remember them. In the end someone wrote it into books. I'm not confident that this mechanism captured many of the original events because by the time a message has been recounted by a few people its often a vastly different message from the original. Imaging doing that over a widespread area over decades or centuries. Kind of like the lost city of Atlantis - that was supposed to be this all powerful civilization - we don't know if it was made up or not. Some people believe it but they don't even know where it was - how can something that was so important be believed today with such an unreliable information system as word of mouth. The only thing you can really say is that since the books were written people have been brainwashed in a consistent way.If there really is a god I trust that one day he will decide to come back and give his message on prime time TV. That way we can record it properly.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 08:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 04, 2011, 06:46:00 pmLol. In the 1992 the church of England decided to have a vote on allowing the ordination of women priests, something they had been debating for 17 years. It was passed with the narrowest of margins.I asked a friend why they didn't just ask God if he wanted women priests. The friend said they did and God told half of them he wanted women priests and the other half he didn't.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:02:48 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 04, 2011, 08:53:49 pmNope, everyone downloading (copying) books for free would mean most authors wouldn't bother writing them and we wouldn't have any books (far fewer anyway). That is the point of copyright it is for the benefit of the readers not the authors. The way copyright has been twisted out of all recognition by vested interests and dumb/corrupt politicians you could be forgiven for not realising that.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on July 04, 2011, 09:02:48 pmNo because not everyone will just download books, people will still buy them. I have a both a real and a virtual copy of The Art of Electronics and will probably buy the third edition too. Especially if I find a place to download it and enjoy reading it a lot, I'd be even more motivated to buy it than I would've been without that opportunity.Still, I don't see how borrowing a book from the library or second hand store is worse for the author than downloading it.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:23:39 pm
content: Sorry people a long story is coming up.All that I can do for you is to use some colors on the dialogs,and separate some how the chapters by bold marks.This is a story, my own story, which I call it as miracle, and personally I believe that it is.They had pass several years of that Friday (before the Sunday of Easter), that we celebrate the resurrection of Jesus,In our Christian Orthodox Church.At the dawn of this Friday (Easter week) at about 4:30 to 5:30am two thieves’, and probably drug dealers, dived out of my store,my poor little horse, one 250CC Honda motorcycle, which it was not shining and it was not at its best condition.When I realize what happened few hours later, that I got weak up, I lost the world under of my feet.It was and is the only wheels that I own.The words are very poor to describe my feelings at that time,but the most major idea in my head was that what happened to me was an major injustice.I did notify the Police about the stolen motorcycle, and even made an public announcement from a local FM radio station.My message .. my tone of voice … was like a fire, in just 10 hours since the public announcement in the radio,All the 20 highway patrol officers in my city they were aware of what to look for.Some of them were aware about me.Because I was use to travel with my dog on the motorcycle (it was standing on the fuel tank) and we was a true spectacle,Lots of laughs and teasing, when I was waiting for the green light at the traffic lights.And so I was easily recognizable from local patrol officers (On two wheels).This is how the Friday ended.In the beginning of Saturday, many friends of my came to me, so to offer to me their own wheels,So to have my chance to search in some places around the City, that usually the thieves’,They bring there the stolen motorcycles, so to grab the useful parts, and then discard the leftovers.Nop , no luck , nothing found there too.This is how the Saturday morning ended.At the Saturday 24:00 or Sunday 00:01 , we celebrate the resurrection of Jesus.And so Sunday & Monday, they are two days of national celebration.Nothing moves, nothing happens.Tuesday, was another dead day for me, I could not think, I could not work,I was just sad and silent all day long.At the afternoon I took the decision, to visit one small near by church and ask for help.This church is part of an orphanage, which my own father had grown up in it, because his parents had died at 1940 (German occupation).My own father, before he dies, he had share with me one story of how he recovered his own lost wedding ring, by asking for help in this specific church.On Wednesday I am getting to the church at 10:00am, the church was open but empty,I am starting my own monolog with the God, a silent one, but from inside of my I was screaming.It was a scream with out voice, and I was pointing out that this was a major injustice for me.How in earth the God let something like that to happen on to a person like me, who truly never did anything bad in to another human.And I demanded the help of God, by clearly saying, that if I did not get his help, I would never ever visit his home again.Some people they challenge God daily, I did this challenge only once so far, and I was in the age of 36 years old.Same day 10:30 I am back to my shop,and I am starting to repair one fax machine of a customer,So to make something productive, and keep my mind busy.( Gentlemen start your watches, and count the time!! )At 11:00 amone good friend of my Jim, came in my shop so to check on me and say hi.And we had a dialog.Jim: How are you?Kiriakos: I feel like shit.Jim: Do you have any ideas about places to look for the motorcycle.Kiriakos: Yes I have the felling that the motorcycle is dropped somewhere in between of our own city in the high way that drives to Larisa ( Near by city 60Km away )Jim: Hmm ok, I have a work to do, I will come back later on, so to check on you and have a coffee.Remark :My own friend he is a constructor who installs plaster boards,this specific day, he came to me by driving his huge closed van capable to load plaster boards of 2m high x 5 meters long. (Yes it was empty when he came)Back to the story:My own friend did about 10 steps out of my shop and returned back in.Jim: get ready we are going to Larisa now.Kiriakos: Now?Jim: Yes now.The time was 11:15 amand we did start traveling to Larisa , with the large van.The travel time it is about 50 min.In the carwe had the radio on, and we has not saying much,until Jim made the key question, when we had cover the half of the distance:Jim: Kiriako do you really believe that we will found the motorcycle in Larisa?Kiriakos: Jim would you believe me if I told you, that right now in this car,We are not just two people but three?He smiled on me, and he did not make another question.At the 90% of the distance I started to feel fear, because I started to realize what we were doing.We were heading in one city of 200.000 people, a truly huge area to cover even with the help of a helicopter!!Not to say that even if it was parked in a public place on the sidewalk, you could possibly need weeks so to find it.We arrived at the entrance of the city at 12:00 am.And he stops the car, so to talk its other, of what we will do next.Jim: I had an coworker living in Larisa, we has very good friends,And we had cooperated in one big project that took months.But I wanted to find his business card so to invite him in my marriage,And I couldn’t find it …Let me check at the front compartment of the van.Remark :He does find the business card !!He makes the phone call, and the mobile phone number was still the same after 12 years !!Jim: Hi friend we have lost a motorcycle, do you have any tips about places in Larisa with reputation about such matters.Jim – Friend : yes there is an area in the city called as XXXX , and as second a small village near by called as XXXX.Jim: Kiriakos what do you say?Kiriakos: We will go in the city.Jim: No problem I know this location, and I can drive us there even with my eyes closed.At 12:05 am we start moving againby heading to this location in the city,The target was a known square park at the middle of this area.At 12:10 am we arrive in the area,and actually we were in front of one cross road, with just two directions (left or right).Jim: Kiriakos this is it … area XXXX ..Jim: now what?Kiriakos: Jim I will show you the way and you will just turn the car.Jim: Here is what we will do.I will watch the left sidewalk as we move,And you will watch the right sidewalk.Kiriakos: No Jim, I will show you the way, and you will just turn the car.Jim: Ok let’s do it by your own way, where you want me to turn?Kiriakos: Turn right Jim.After the right turn, the van did 20 meters, and it was had to turn left,there was not any other way.Time : 12:15 amThe van made the turn to the left, and at our left hand it was one coffee shop with Pool tables (Billiards),It had a face of 10 meters long, and after the end of it and under the sidewalk, was my motorcycle parked on it !!The van was moving and I screamed“ That’s my motorcycle “I opened the door and jumped out of the moving van.The poor Jim, stopped the car at the middle of the street and started to screamI DO NOT BELIEVE ITrepeat ably.He did that about five times, then parked the van, and came to me shocked and lost …He grabbed me and droved me away from the motorcycle …Jim : Kiriakos take a big breath and lets call the local police authorities, so to help us, and give them the opportunity,about arresting the thieves’, or to find who did it.And we did just that, we did call the special police authority about such matters, and they arrived with a civil car no markings.We were 50 meters away of the parked motorcycle, waiting with the Police about 2 hours, but no one showed up.About me, I was crying and laughing with in two minutes interval, all those two hours that we were in the police car,waiting for some one to show up.The special police officers they decided to interrupt the watch,And they said that we can take the motorcycle, I had all the papers and even the keys,and we just should follow them at the police station, as they had to do a bit of paper work,about this case.The new problem was that the thief, he had lock the rear wheel with a disk brake lock !!And there was no way to drive the motorcycle back home !!I did learned something new even from the thieves’,they trust morethe disk brake lock,among other methods.And so weDIDload theLOCKEDmotorcycle in to theHUGE van,and after the shortcut that we did about visiting the local police department,we took the way back from LARISA to our own city.And let’s do the math.The motorcycle was stolen for five days !!Wednesday10:00 am at the church10:30 back to my shop11:00 Jim shows up with the huge van.11:05 Staring to travel12:10 Arrival and the phone call to the old friend ( Lost business card -12 years unchanged mobile number)12:15 I was in front of my motorcycle !!The sum is that I had my motorcycle back in 120 minutes, after getting out of the church.Do not ask me why in my dialogs with Jim, I was acted like giving to him,directions to follow, like commanding him in a way.I do not know what happened, it was my own voice, but my reactions, or the way that I use the words was not my.But I had no intention to think of my own, by using my logic to all this.The only logic description that I could use, so to describe why I acted that way,Is that I just left my self free, free to be used as receiver.Every time that I read this story I get tears in my eyes.It’s too much the all thing, so to be called as coincidence, or to be called as wild luck,or what ever other, than a true miracle.As smaller in size, but still a miracle,was for me the help that Dave offered to me about the 87V story.And the happy end that this story got.And as another mini miracle it could be the fact that I got chosen by Agilent,so to participate, in their DMM review program.I believe that small miracles happens every day,and they happen to us with the help of God,but mostly because we love its other ( In a way ).We can become small Gods, by helping its other,And in true difficult situations, you have the right to ask for help from our own father above.He does listen if you know what numbers to dial.I was and before an positive thinking Christian,and I am still now, but I had stopped wondering if there is a God out there.My proof is in the picture of my own web site about the restoration of my motorcycle.Is the picture called as“ Before “this was the stolen and found motorcycle.Currently there are 40.000 witnesses of my miracle on the web counter,but they do not know it. LOLhttp://dhost.info/ax1/

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on July 04, 2011, 08:54:29 pmthere areHafeezin Islamic dictionary, even until now. Since prophet and most friends were illiterate, they used to memorized full content of it and be tested for competency annually, usually in the month ofRamadhan, it took many years that way after the prophet died. But since many Hafeez died duringCrusades - Christian Islam Warthe ruler, orCaliphatemake initiative to make it in writing. So thats the first written version. and later some ammendment in writing style to make reading easier to non-arabic literate people, but still maintaining alphabet count, only addition of dash at the top and bottom of alphabet, full stop and verse numbering which do not count in content "checksum". arabic writing (original language) is maintained even in translated version of the holy book. another history for that.Quote from: gregariz on July 04, 2011, 08:54:29 pmsmall armageddon are demonstrated in small scale of floods, earth quakes, small meteorite and they are mostly well recorded, but thats not it (denial) to some people's definition albeit of no way of human power of controlling it. but when the big armageddon happen, not a single piece of paper can record that, this explained gap in history, scientists/archeologists are searching for the past big armageddon, they found proofs in ice/soil sediments (big flood and big volcano sulphur trace) etc, i used to watch that in national geographic, you may find it in the net i think.you can never find such text as "godless literature" in our library. i've never found aethist (or even jews) in my country, we are all religious population islam, christian, buddha live in harmony

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 04, 2011, 09:16:14 pmJust to be clear, my remark about stealing was a just a joke. Let's not turn this topic into another flamewar about piracy.I think in the digital age if you download something you weren't going to pay for, it's not a lost sale. However, if you like something, you should pay the authors. This is true of everything - books, movies, music, software ...For example, I haven't seen Dawkins' books in my local bookstore, and neither the Art of Electronics. I have downloaded both, and since I like them I already have the AoE + student manual coming from Amazon. I will probably order the Selfish Gene some day, once again because I like it so much. I think of the download as a kind of a trail. The same way you skip through a book in the bookstore, now you can download it, read the first few pages and decide if you want it.Of course there are people who think piracy is going to kill the <..> industry but really, it has been around forever and nothing happened. People like a movie, buy the DVD. Like music, go to concert. Like a game, buy it to get multiplayer. It's a sort of advertising, and the net result is positive. Most indie game developers and small bands get it. Many books are available to download for free directly from the author's site, and you can also buy them in print. Unfortunately, all the big corporations with their DRM, lawsuits, C&D don't get it.Just my 2cents. I don't think it's wrong to download a book and try it, but I'm not going to provide people with the links.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:38:56 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 09:28:57 pmThey also found evidence of earth being 4.5 billion years old, and most stuff in the bible being false. But I guess you don't care about that, since it disagrees with your world view.Science is not something you can cherry-pick from. Either you accept everything, or nothing.Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 09:28:57 pmI find that incredibly sad, and hope it's not true. What is the point of reading a book that just reaffirms your world view? You might as well write your own book, then read it. And you won't learn anything new. I pity the atheists in your country.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 09:28:57 pmThat was my point. Because that period of history was unrecorded except through word of mouth the message is, IMO, unreliable. And hence the bible/Quran/insert_special_holy_book are unreliable.If you accept this as unreliable it does not make you an un-believer for which you will go to hell, it makes you instead a do-not-believe-until-reasonable-evidence-is-produced person. You have the ten commandments - thats all you need - if you want to believe then believe that and leave the rest of it asside. I like to think that if there is a god he will take a dim view of the present system of blind-faith and the people who subscribe to it.Looking at the literacy rates in the Middle east today, you can only imagine what they were over a thousand years ago.http://middleeast.about.com/od/middleeast101/a/me090425b.htm

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:49:31 pm
content: and thats the point of hell and heaven story, good and bad. to make it delusive, arguably unreliable, and even... un-measurable. (up to my logical thinking) so, from my probabilistic analytical skill earlier, you may choose:a)fullstop or hell(no pray, no belief, become an aethist... or "pure scientist? isnt that a religion?)b)fullstop, hell or heaven(with hardwork of praying, and become the believer of a unprovable "delusion")

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 09:58:18 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 09:49:31 pmNo, there is the position of Agnostic. An Atheist is someone who has considered the evidence and chosen to dismiss it as wrong - hell is not a concept to them. An Agnostic has determined that considering the evidence it is unknowable. The Agnostic does not dismiss hell, heaven or fullstop's other than to say - we don't know.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 10:07:00 pm
content: and to the definition of "religion with God", you dont have faith, and hence heaven (or probably hell) is not an option for you (err i mean Agnostic), until its proven otherwise. but according to the Quran (i've been quoting it as 4th edition, sad), once you've proved it (the existence of God, hell heaven etc), its already too late. or in other word, in religious point of view, Agnotism = Atheism. or in another word, agnostic needs proof to believe, but since there is no proof, hence there is no God. or let put it as, agnostics are "sceptic" of the existence of God. and in religious point of view Sceptic = Not Believing.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 10:13:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 10:07:00 pmAll churches and cults have their own -" do this or you will go to hell stories."As an agnostic to me this makes no sense. It is most likely a product of people who have a vested interest in the church or the power around it. This is partly why agnostics and atheists consider the holy books to be unreliable - because they benefit the power of a church. These books are full of it.The reason it makes no sense is that if there really was a god he would not be interested in having people pray to him all day unless he was a ego-maniac. His interest would be in how we lead better lives.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 10:16:41 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 10:07:00 pmNot all religion is about God or lack of thereof and heaven and hell surely you've heard of Buddhism? There's no God in Buddhism, look it up.All religions are is a set of stories and beliefs passed down through the generations. Christianity is a mixture of Judaism and Paganism. I don't know much about Islam but I understand it's been influenced by Christianity.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 10:24:08 pm
content: yes buddhism is belief to one single man. and as i said earlier, is not listed or not inlined with the 4 version of holy book. one day "aethism/agnotism" and "science'sm" too will become religion i suspect.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 10:58:51 pm
content: All religious texts werewrittenby Men.Men = Fallible.The end.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 11:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 04, 2011, 10:24:08 pmSomeone should write a 5th version of that book, it's getting outdated.Also, I wouldn't call it a religion since it's misleading, but I hope I will live to the day when science is the most widespread "religion" on this planet and current religions get forgotten.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2011, 11:44:24 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 04, 2011, 11:06:29 pmNo mater how long you will live, there is no chance to see one alive religion,to get forgotten.Science is just a toy, in the hands of the humans.If Science had inside it, something more and deep as meaning, today in our times we would not had diseases and starvation.Science looks powerless and it is.Your holy grail, does not look that shiny to me.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 12:26:17 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 04, 2011, 11:44:24 pmKiriakos,Take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I know that you have experience over me in life, electronics, and other things. I believe you are a bit misguided. Although I do believe it'd be impossible to eradicate religion altogether, science has done more for humanity than religion has in the past 6,000 years.The fact is, because of science, people are living longer, healthier lives. Less people are hungry now than have ever been hungry before. Less people now are homeless than before. Science brings us comfort in the form of physical and intellectual means. It leaves a spiritual gap, but that is filled by religion. I for one, do not need religion to feel like I am contributing to society and have a good moral compass.I do not need the comfort of an afterlife to soothe me when I go to sleep. I know that I may not wake up tomorrow, it's what I do today that counts.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 01:04:13 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 04, 2011, 09:16:14 pmBut without copyright people will buy a copy of the book from whoever can print it the cheapest and the author still gets nothing and would not have bothered writing it in the first place.

author: MrPlacid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 01:43:49 am
content: Kiriakos-GR, don't tell me it was a miracle from heaven you got your bike back.Do you realize that there are thousands of hungry children dieing everyday in this world for the lord to care about someone's motorcycle? The thousands of babies, women, children, and men who drowned in the tsunami? There are people living in hunger and pain everyday.There are hundreds of children and people borned with birth defects. Today, I saw a normal looking child borned with a mental disorder. He just keep yelling, and his mother keep him still by holding his hand. Yesterday, I saw a little girl in a pretty little dress who's eyes are crossed.It's illogical that the lord rather do a miracle on someone's motorcyle over a child's health.If this is how the lord works, I'll personally give him the middle finger. Two fingers while I am at it!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 03:06:03 am
content: in Kiriakos case, i can rule Jinn of ghost, beside angel or even God as possibility. Witch is still "not so common" practice here. With a good witch, you can find your lost item given you comply to certain rule such as you remember the date of the lost, and he can even tell the current condition of the item remotely before we even get there and still in the witch's house. Its no magic here, its witch, who uses Jinn as servant. Kiri, its maybe Satan whispering in your ear!Quote from: Armin_Balija on July 04, 2011, 10:58:51 pmcan you prove that? i've given my science fiction. yours? well, of course its written by Men! but the idea is from God, just like Kiri got the whisper. nothing is made up by mere human thinking, 100% content from God, written by Men, with stringent checking from "you know who"Quote from: Armin_Balija on July 05, 2011, 12:26:17 amyou have lost in modernization. you should learn a lot more in broader scope of history. I suspect you dont even know or hear the story who Jesus is, or even Mohamad, the last prophet. or maybe you are refering to how the age of "reasoning" of science saved humanity from Old Fanatically Religious Roman Catholics? and maybe its been erased from you that it was Islamic Civilization that teach European how to have a proper public bath/restroom and road and pretty much everything in civilization?Islamic contributions to Medieval EuropeWhen Islam is in its Glory, Europeans still walk in the mud. But now, the teacher is labelled as terrorist by the taught civilization who marvel Science as their "Jesus the Saviour"

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 03:35:52 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 05, 2011, 03:06:03 amThe truth of the matter is, I was raised in a Muslim household. I've spent many years reading Hadith, listening to Sheikhs and scholars (One of my favorite being Nouman Ali Khan from the Bayyinah Institute) and I've come to the conclusion that it's just a farce.Here's the deal, I know where you're coming from. For most of my life I was raised in an Islamic house. I know what Islam is. I know it's not a violent religion. I know the good that muslims, christians, and jews do within their community and outside.I'm not trying to tell you to stop believing, but you know it to be true that all religious texts were written by men. I can assure you that the Qur'An has the most magnificent poetry, grammar use and context, but it's a man-made recital. I know it's hard to let it go. I've never had a more severe backlash than when I told my parents and uncle that I'm an atheist. They were so disappointed in me. I can't let that dictate my life though, although I love my parents more than anything in this world, I live for me, not for them. I will make their life a lot easier in terms of wealth and support, but I can't believe something that just doesn't ring true to me.In any case, You know as well as I do that anyone who uses Jinn in a manner like that (witch) is practicing black magic and under islamic law is to be executed. Is this fair? A little hoax or scam and it's the death penalty? I don't think that's fair really..Onto the Men = Fallible thing. You know as well as I do that noone is perfect (unless you're going to start preaching to me about how all the prophets of Allah were perfect or else they wouldn't have been chosen as prophets. In case of that, don't even bother because you're just preaching to someone who doesn't think ANYONE is perfect.)Everyone makes mistakes, even "prophets."Lastly, I don't want to make you feel like I'm attacking you or that I'm putting you down. I just feel like Islam itself did not create algebra and other mathematics. The people who created mathematics created it not BECAUSE of Islam but rather in spite of it. If Islam were as great as you claim it is, the adherents who are also power wielders in the middle east would modernize and help the common man instead of hoarding all their wealth and building grand Masjids and golden thrones for the King.Either way, Religion itself has never contributed to anything mathematically, the people who adhered to those religions did. As well, they created the mathematics out of necessity, not because it was divinely inspired.

author: MrPlacid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 04:52:15 am
content: Quote from: Armin_Balija on July 05, 2011, 03:35:52 am+thumb for Armin_Balija.I congradulate you on your breaking away from the biggest brainwashing of mankind.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 08:50:21 am
content: yes. i also think i've made my point more than enough. i respect your choice, even if in Islam regulation, penalty for a convert is death, is very hard to comprehend, but ignorant i am i will just take it with grain and salt, with "faith". thats it. only last simple question Armin, did you khatam (complete and understand reading all the Quran verses) before you convert? +1 to aethist/agnostic allyAl-Kafirun (The Disbelievers)

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 11:49:08 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 05, 2011, 08:50:21 amGuess why ... people converting away from religion is bad so you have to scare them.Up until now I was hoping this thread could have a meaningful discussion, but both Mechatrommer and Kiriakos are claiming everything that supports their idea as a miracle, and everything that doesn't is ignored.Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 04, 2011, 11:44:24 pmDo you go to a hospital? Do you have a light bulb at your home? Are you using a computer? Drinking clean water? Eating processed food?You can thank the powerless science for this. I don't know how old are you but there is a pretty good chance you would already be dead by now if it wasn't for modern healthcare. And evolution.If you hate science so much why do you use it every day? Go live the way people in bible times did.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 01:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 05, 2011, 11:49:08 amHey its not a shame to admit that your God called as "money".There is many out there like you that they have the same God.They use science as another one merchandise.And yes , If I run out of money, I do not belong any more in your world that is surrounded by the walls of science.This is why I had selected an different God than yours .

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 02:06:13 pm
content: Quote from: MrPlacid on July 05, 2011, 01:43:49 amI am very sorry that my God cannot act like the Rambo - Superman - Spider-man - Robocop - Transformers - and many other mythical by Hollywood super heroes.My God, it supposed that he made you by his own image, and so move you midle finger to the others,if this is all that you can do, about aiding others !!I will just remind you that Earth is the kingdom of humans, for any injustice you have to blame them.As I did about the thieves who was steal the motorcycle of a poor man with a good hart.In the church they say that the willing of God is unknown ( or better unpredicted ).In this case you have only one solution, to hire your own God so to safe keep your own back.At the positive thinking persons, I would say, that If you do need to seek and contact God,his is there for you, so to find him.But you had to bypass your ego and the what ever authority that you think that you have earn.The miracles serves two purposes, they are examples of the power of God,and they are lessons for the unbelievers.Because I did experienced this miracle and with another person,I do not know if this lesson of faith was mainly for me ?Probably my own friend needed it mostly, and I just found my motorcycle too.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 03:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 05, 2011, 08:50:21 amYes, I've done my best to understand and learn from arab scholars as much as possible because I, myself, cannot read or understand arabic. I know that you cannot begin to understand the qur'an unless you know arabic.However, in my opinion, if Allah was all merciful he would've given us the qur'an with a universal language or the ability for anyone to understand. The biggest problem is the miracle lay in the language, not the book.To truly comprehend the beauty of the qur'an you must be able to read and recite the qur'an.I for one, was born with a health problem that I would rather not get into that will cut my life short, I don't see this as merciful. It has only brought pain to me, I don't see how a merciful God could make someone sick.If he was truly merciful he would never make anyone sick, but rather teach us life lessons through our own personal trials, not something that would affect our families. If you believe it like it has been said, Allah would never punish the children for the transgression of the parents, so why have I been punished?In the end I'm led to believe that I haven't been "punished" and "God" did not "make" me this way. It was merely a chance. It happens to millions and millions of people. It's no one's fault. I'm not completely debilitated. I can walk, talk, think, do almost everything I want to do. I'm happy with that and I'm always going forward with progress in my mind. I cannot progress if I feel like I have to dwell on my life all day.You know what has taught me the most in this life? My father. He played chess with me everyday when I was little. He taught me math before I started 1st grade. He helped me put together my first bicycle and he bought me my first tool set. He was a Civil Engineer back in Europe and the one thing I will never forget is when we would play chess, he would never let me win, but I'd get frustrated and want to quit and he'd say "Never give up. Never ever give up. Fight to the last piece. The last pawn. Your king. You never know what can happen if you just give up."This is the single most important piece of advice I've ever learned. Willpower. He told me if I try hard enough, never give up, and continue forward.. I can do it. Challenges are like walls. Find a way over it or around it, but don't let it stop you.Wow, I've gone on a pretty bad tangent just now. Sorry about all that. The point I'm trying to make is, I don't give God any credit for my accomplishments because that would take away the meaning of all the work that I and my family have done.

author: MrPlacid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 04:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 05, 2011, 02:06:13 pmI never in my life move a finger toward another human beings. I don't even say curse words. I would only lift my middle finger on behalf of those less fortunates to any god I found after death.When I watch people claim miracles, it is like watching wealthy rich men pity himself and asking a miracle from god while children are starving or being deprive of life or quality of life since birth. To this days, there are many adults living a horrible life never to be able to speak, see, or disfigured to the point that they will never be married. The list of injustices could go on forever. Anyways, the drama a child must go through to see his love one dying before his very eyes is way more than the stress one go through losing his motorcycle.Comparing finding a bike as to curing someone's illness, the former definitely can't be called a miracle. In fact, it has the opposite effect. Telling nonbelievers that the believers would attribute anything good to god.BTW, even as we talk, my opinion of you still hold. You are a very smart and talented man.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 04:23:34 pm
content: the problem is classical arabic, no one can really understand it

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 04:34:03 pm
content: Quote from: Sionyn on July 05, 2011, 04:23:34 pmIt's pretty much unchanged since the qur'an was spoken. That's not really the problem.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 04:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: MrPlacid on July 05, 2011, 04:03:09 pmI respect you too, and I highly value your opinion, and this is why we had this dialog today.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 05:04:04 pm
content: We're moving to the end of this thread, I think (or hope).It has been quite hard to me, to read and write something of my thought.I've felt a little bit under attack (I'm speaking about prejudice here), when I was the only participant to say that science and religion can go together. I've read quite hard things, religion to be banned, if it was for someone, for example. This last demonstrates to me that, even if religion would disappear from earth, the problems would not be less than today. Atheists will be able to do the same bad things that religious people have done over the history.It's the mankind which is the same to itself, and has from one side the will to do good things, but is tempted to the bad (from a moral point of view, which can be shared among theist and atheists).All that we can see and perceive is the result of evolution, I don't deny this. It still doesn't make me less sure that something had to trigger that glorious Big Bang. One can always imagine a cause for the cause... Recursive. Infinite is one of the adjectives for God.Again, don't take this as a formal demonstration for the existence of God, but just let us not be just stupid, even if we believe there has been (at the infinite back in the timebase) a first cause for all. After all, that's not such a strange thesis.Just thinking from a moral point of view, there are principles that have to remain true (even for the survival of our species moral rules are needed, as already said). I feel that the existence of a border line in the moral field is a thing that atheist can accept too, but you could correct me. If this is true, just think the holy books contain, physically written by men, these principles. Many said the bible is incorrect, because it describes a distorted history and reality. It would be like reading a verse book and trying to guess math or electronics. Although some historical elements have been proved to be true, the book was not written for that. Ignoring this and judging on it is a great mistake, IMO, which has been made widely, but I'm always surprised is still happening nowadays, when all of us have access to so much knowledge. Surprised just like the atheists are to see so many people still believing in some more than what eyes or instruments can ever reveal.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 05:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on July 05, 2011, 01:04:13 amWhere did I say copyright should be abolished? I just said I don't see who downloading a book rather than buying it is any worse for the author than borrowing it from the library or getting it from a second hand shop.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3968.msg53121#msg53121Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 05, 2011, 02:06:13 pmIf God created humankind in his own image then that makes God imperfect and no better than anyone else. In reality, it's the other way round.Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2011, 10:45:24 pmI don't think it's that simple. The bible is open to interpretation, like any other book. Religion is personal to the follower. I doubt every Catholic believes in exactly the same god. I think it's most likely that everyone has their own perception of what god is or is not.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 05:40:22 pm
content: Quote from: scrat on July 05, 2011, 05:04:04 pmThat would be me. I don't mean it that way, banning things is not an option, everyone can have their own opinion. I just hope in naturally disappears over time.Anyway, I would ban religion from school, science, tax breaks, state and politics.Also, religion and science might go together in some cases. For example, the modern christianity view with evolution is kind of ok. Still pretty bad but better then the new earth crap. I simply don't understand scientists, especially biologists, that do not believe in evolution. It's the single most important thing in that field. I would not give a biology-related diploma to a person that doesn't accept evolution.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 05:51:45 pm
content: Governments have tried banning religion and it didn't work - look at how many Christians there are in Russia today.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 07:10:59 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 05, 2011, 11:49:08 amyour imagination tells you? can you prove it mathematically? i have reason, but i'd rather not to discuss it here, there will be pointless.Quote from: ndictu on July 05, 2011, 11:49:08 amas whats normally happening nowadays, the convict is convicted for some crime, where infact the convicter is actually the original criminal tried to conseal everything and deviates people eyes from the real truth. i'm not saying you ndictu is a criminal, i'm just giving example of the "moral lifestyle of today", you probably the effect of it (originally from the 1st cause) I'm not the one who started discussion about God (see reply #31 by Alex) which you defended so badly and applaused it as "contentfull". But when thing goes against your so called "Contentfull Godless Ideology" which you tried to implicitly deny it as an "ideology" by saying it is us who tried to defend our "Contentless Ideology of God". You dont say aethism is a religion? well from my point of view you are wrong! "Aethism" IS a religion, they/you just want to deny/deviate it. In fact, books like "God Delusion" is written due to pissed off with christian religion and the writer want to make another side/group, a religious group, a religion without a God, a religion that believe human mind is the origin. (good example: buddhism?)The fact is, i'm pityfull to the guy named George Carlin. He maybe had a bad experience in life, finacial collapse, disease etc. and then he lost track on faith, the what is "cause and effect", the consequences etc that He blame God for it, tried to act superior by saying which has the same semantic as "We Dont Need God to Live!". He pityfully forgot, how could it be logical that he expect he'll get all the good when he did something wrong. You got financial problem? its you dont work hard enough. You got disease? its you who dont practice safe/healthy way, or even forbid/deny God's Limit by doing free sex (unsafe way if you like), sodomy etc which been accepted as moral behaviour. You blame God who sent Aids into this world, NO! its not the God who sent it, its occured by "natural selection"! Aids has always been there, somewhere from eternity! or evolution whatever, NOT God! He asked how could God loves us when He send us to Hell, it is he... who lost the clue, that is sent to hell, because of what (sin) he did on earth! the same to other sinners that will become the fuel of hell, together with him, if he dont appeal to God and admitting what he did is wrong, before his own armageddon (death). He lost God's love, who gave him guide of what should or not be done for his own soul'ly and bodily benefit, that he dont have an ant of clue about the reason why God ask him to do this and that and claimed it as such a ridiculous (unexplained) thing! There is no hard math and science prove on Him (his video), but yet he got the applause from the so called "intelligent people"! Amazing!Only one thing the most crappiest thing happening on earth in my view. is that you did Sin, you did wrong, but in the end, you go to the same path as other people who sacrifice themselves to the goodness. The most ridiculuos thing that people tried to deviate/conceal. As i gave the example of "boss and workers", you did good you get promoted, you did bad you got fired! (fire?) such a simple (cause and effect/consequence) analogy is incomprehensible to many pitiful souls. And of course! the one who get fired will blame the boss and say "O we dont need the fucking boss!". George Carlin expect he can do whatever he want and then go to heaven, luxurious in money, wealth etc! if not, he will WHINE and deny God! what a kind of dickhead!Quote from: ndictu on July 05, 2011, 11:49:08 amand again, you've lost in time and space, the same to others. Any sane religious people will not deny science. Further we embraced science (and math) as the creation of God, its an instrument provided to human so we can improve our living, its the love of God. but again, there will be no point to discuss to such an arrogant people who claim it as their invention, refined toward perfection, L.O.L!Quote from: Armin_Balija on July 05, 2011, 03:50:35 pmArabic language is choosen for some reason. as you said (one proof given), arabic is the most stable language, minimally changed during centuries. You want to give excuse you dont know arabic? i dont blame for your effort. I dont know Arab, but i understand my holy book through translation effort from the past believers. Universal language? what is? and again what do you expect? we can communicate through thought? we were once one language (Adam language), it is us who got divided and create our own language (or religion?), you blame God for that? oh i forgot, you dont have anybody to blame to... there is No God!Quote from: Armin_Balija on July 05, 2011, 03:50:35 pmmust be for some reason.one way or another.and again... there's no personal feeling right? you with your opinion. me with mine, hope we can still friendfor the sake of science, math and technology

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 07:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 05, 2011, 07:10:59 pmOf course not, I hope you didn't take anything I said personally. Outside of this thread every argument is goneI think I'm going to leave this thread, it's already 12 pages longer than it should be...

author: Flavour Flave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 08:51:15 pm
content: After reading this thread I find peoples general ignorance of Islam is very disconcerting. I recommend that you do a bit of research especially into Muhammed's life and his actions.Oh yeah just type into google "abrogation koran"

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 09:02:58 pm
content: This not the show of " Oprah Live in Chicago " ..And there is no need every one to agree with all the others.And so anyone can ban what ever he likes , no hard feelings.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 09:16:19 pm
content: Quote from: rico1974 on July 05, 2011, 08:51:15 pmI love to have ignorance of Islam, if Greeks and Arabs are good friends,it is because they are smart and positive thinking people !!And I do not care if they call me as disbeliever " UNANI ", instead of " Hellina",or at list as Greek.Keep the Koran for your self , as long it preaches: " death to the disbelievers "We do not need such books.If we need to read something so to freak out, we would read the Count Dracula ..

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 09:23:04 pm
content: Quote from: rico1974 on July 05, 2011, 09:19:52 pmI grew up in a semi-strict Islamic household so I actually don't understand what you were trying to say by your previous post. I haven't really bothered to wade through 11+ pages of arguing to see anything anti-islamic.I'm not anti-islamic. I'm not anti-christian. I just don't believe in any of it. I don't believe it should be around for the sake of humanity but I'm not going to go on a crusade against it. (lol crusade)

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 09:26:59 pm
content: It is not as bad as I thought, although it has potential.

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 09:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: Alex on July 05, 2011, 09:26:59 pmHmm, we are just 200 posts from top 5, we can do it!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 09:36:46 pm
content: and let me add some to clear the misconception. the religion (the true teaching) will not condone immoral act such as rape, corruption, forbidding "safe" sex (marriage), lust of power. anybody! and i mean anybody that doing nasty thing, is by all mean has deviated from the true teaching. they are doing it for their own personal preferences. a pope that saw "theory of evolution" as threat because they afraid of lossing power in church, or church become extinct. the same to any other so called "religious" people, be it islam, christian, jew or whatever. lust of power is not promoted in any "religious" lesson, and is a personal thing, the devil thing inside. and we believe God knows the sinner no matter how hard they try to conceal?human police/judge/law? how can they know? and able to bring all the unjust into justice? no, its been proven incapable! human law will not stop criminal, and thats the flaw in aethism argument, they dont admit any human made are inherently imperfect. funny they claimed the other way around. they claimed human is not perfect, but yet capable of doing perfect thingas long as human made law is not in accordance with the true religion (which is clearly deviated in today's law) there will be always massacre, you can discuss what happened in Greece, America, Pakistan, Arab country all you like, who caused it whats the origin. The origin/answer is simple, the monetary and debt system is not in accordance with the Law of Religion, it is man-made and been like that for so many years. they made it in the name of religion which is NOT, thats why religion is to be blamed, because of this small group of "Satanic mind" people. the result is economy collapse, wars and lust of power.Its been proven in Islamic Age where nobody's poor we have to give the money to help to, different religions live in harmony, the perfection of God's Law exemplify that the neighbooring countries embraced it, enlarging the empire (which mistakenly interpreted by today's generation as bloodsheds). and then comes jealousy from another religion, they thought its a threat to their own religion/empire, and then came propaganda in the name of religion. So Islamic Age collapsed as we see today. and man-made law rules, in the name of religion. so Aethism emerged, using science as their backing. A new war has begun between "Godess" and "Godless" religion! Guess who started it? a pope that see "evolution" as a threat? and try to ban aethism? or "Evolutioner" such as George Carlin who claimed that there is no God? which is a real absolute threat to the former!And another thing to be clear, there is no jew religion, there is no christian, there is no islam religion. There is only One God! God's Religion, God's Rule, God's Way of Living. Religion is actually "The Way of Living" and "Appreciation of the Maker" and His Domain! which later He will pay in the next ressurection in another dimension, nothing more nothing less. The difference in Names ie Jew, Christian, Islam, Aethism has made human kind got separated. Just as stated/predicted in the "Holy Book", there is no proof for that, until it actually happen, which is happened!Its just happened in His last Book of Holy (4th edition which named Quran) that the religion is Named as Islam, and He did challenge human kind to make even a single verse thats of similar quality as the Quran, or if you want to argue the subjectiveness of the meaning "quality", He did challenge if someone can alter the Holy Book's content! He did challenge if man can do a better law than Him. I'm looking forward to the Man-Made 5th Edition of Holy Book! be it the Holy Book of Aethism! and see how it can manage/govern human kind in order.

author: Flavour Flave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 09:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: Armin_Balija on July 05, 2011, 09:23:04 pmPerfect example of Taqiyyah above.Well I just wrote asking people to learn about abrogation in the koran and you immediately you say I am anti-islamic. Is that because you don't want people to understand abrogation in the koran and what it means in the context of Islam and the West?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 10:11:46 pm
content: he did not say you an "anti islam" rico. we are scientisthere, we need to translate the word by its syntactic and semantic, not by feeling. my 2cnts.edit: i can see some of the post is being deleted. so it will be hard to trace (debug?) and hence my statement above could be wrong.

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 10:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: rico1974 on July 05, 2011, 09:49:54 pmI think you misunderstood my post, friend.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2011, 11:33:31 pm
content: Quote from: ndictu on July 05, 2011, 05:40:22 pmI accept your explanation, perhaps I didn't point it out immediately because of my feeling (and because there were too many posts to read, understand and try to reply!). When people was insisting about religion having obscured knowledge, brainwashed people and caused wars, I found it a contraddiction that atheists' opinion was to ban religion.Evolutionism is a different story, again the holy books aren't scientific ones. Still some people (hopefully not judged as stupid) think they are worth, and good willing atheists can find most of their good moral principles in them, too.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2011, 01:33:59 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 05, 2011, 09:36:46 pmYou just tried to use the "but humans still can't xxx" augments again which is invalid, our systems are not fixed and improves all the time. We may never reach 100% and we shouldn't as than would be a disaster, but any atheist worth his salt will admit that.Religion is just social engineering, a way to influence how people think, in the older days it served as a great tool to unite groups of people and promote cooperation. It is handy to implement laws and morals with "as the Lord decrees" and suppress arguments with "don't question your god". However we have advanced past that time, "love thy neighbor" is not dependent on the Ten Commandments so why not just skip the middle man and all it's baggage?And don't use those cold war atheist states as examples of godless states, they simply replaced Yahweh with "Dear Leader" which is just another religion. And before you repeat it lack of something does not make it the same as that something.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2011, 07:03:34 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 05, 2011, 05:51:45 pmNo need to ban it, it's dying in many countries anyway.Take the Catholic church, there are very few new young recruits coming through. I think the stat for the average age of priests is approaching 60 or something like that.It's simple, tax the churches like everyone else as they should be, take religion out of politics and public schools completely as it should be, and don't give religion any special "respect" in society.Do those things, or at least the latter two, and the rest will take care of itself.It's like that stupid burqa debate going on in Australia. I'm glad the government finally did the right thing and didn't bow down to "respecting" that rubbish.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2011, 07:20:27 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 05, 2011, 05:05:14 pmI agree. And in that case they are actually a theist, and should call themselves as such, and therefore should not be part of that organised religion.By the letter of the law, you are not a catholic if you don't believe the above stuff, it's that simple.If you have different views, then you should not be associating yourself with that group, as that is truly what they believe, it is not negotiable in their view.In a way, I have more respect for someone who actually believes that rubbish than someone who doesn't but still aligns themselves with such a group.Dave.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2011, 08:09:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 06, 2011, 07:20:27 amWhen I was a kid many families still needed to avoid meat on Fridays. Not long before that they were attending mass every day and praying several times a day. In fact you don't need to go back that many centuries to find Catholic rules which parallel many of the types of restrictions you still see in Islamic countries today, regarding dress and behaviour, even to the extent of women wearing head coverings and the discouragement of girls being educated or going to school and being married off young. Of course during their heyday all of these things would send you to 'hell' if you didnt comply. I was even taught mastubating was a mortal sin I would go to hell for. I can't imagine their will be many men in the world going to heaven.As a kid I was educated in the Catholic School system and even then (not that long ago) they would still openly talk about the need for a 'Fear of God' in order to encourage faith.I think the reality is that people started getting educated and reasoned that most of these had more to do with maintaining this sense of fear and a full collection box than saving their soul. I guess the church could start kicking people out but then their wouldn't be many Catholics left.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2011, 11:27:06 am
content: well.... someday, my dream is... to build a "nearly" intelligent robot!

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2011, 11:47:16 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 06, 2011, 11:27:06 amDo not do it, or make it shorter than you, you never know how the wife's respond,when there is competition.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2011, 11:58:35 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on July 06, 2011, 11:47:16 ami will build it alot more charming than i am allright, except without "that" partand i hope it will not condemn me for denying its "natural desire"

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2011, 12:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 06, 2011, 11:58:35 amWise choice...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2011, 04:21:14 pm
content: sorry to bring up this controversial thread again. but i just found a file in my HDD lying around, i dont remember where it came from but i'm pretty sure its from internet. read it and thought it might be relevant. So, to my dear Agnostics friends (or even Aethists fellow who want to have something to critic), if you have free time to kill, some text (pdf below) to study, its from science point of view, not the so called "nonsensical poetry" of religion. Written by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (original in French) translated to English by Alastair D. Pannell, i dont know who they are, maybe someone of you know them. I'm just doing my job (or share?) as been told, to spread the good or bad news so we can differentiate... nothing personalCheersRegards,Shafri (from Malaysia with Love)

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 02:19:15 pm
content: its 173 pages....

author: ndictu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 03:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: Time on July 18, 2011, 02:19:15 pmJust like this thread!

author: nessatse
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 05:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: Time on July 18, 2011, 02:19:15 pm... at least half of which rants about how inaccurate the bible is, the other half on how great the Quran is. The 'science' part is awfully thin though and rather vague as is usual for these type of documents. Not that I expected anything more...

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 06:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: nessatse on July 18, 2011, 05:15:24 pmYes this thread needs some fresh air in it ...How about Doctor Who & Daleks ?Or an schematic to make your own Dalek !! LOL

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 11:02:48 am
content: Bump to share a youtube channel with very well made videos:https://www.youtube.com/user/DarkMatter2525A couple of vids:

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2011, 09:28:41 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Let us not forget that in the two hundred years of the Spanish Inquisition as many people were executed as Stalin executed in a summer afternoon in the 30s.--It seems reasonable to me, to hold atheistic states to the same standards of responsibility as the theocracies. Otherwise you are putting yourself in the "Communism has never really been tried" school.--To my way of thinking, political movements that want to abolish private property, and confiscate all the guns most resemble the National Socialists and Fascists, and the Communists, all very closely related philosophies. I do not think it is a good idea to give the Government more and more power to use against your enemies, because in the end it will be used against you.--Please note that to a true atheist, there can be no such thing as love, because it cannot be weighed or measured, and must be accepted on faith. And obviously people cannot have souls. Right and wrong are superstitious concepts and only government can decide what is correct practice.--When you are walking home at night through a bad part of town and you hear footsteps behind you, I hope for your sake it will not be a bunch of those irrational Christian Youth members, about to bore you with their ridiculous fairy tales.“I do believe that it's the first time in history that fire has ever melted steel." Rosie O'DonnellBest RegardsClear Ether

author: Kozmyk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 01:51:03 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on October 06, 2011, 09:28:41 pmJeez! Where did you dig that tripe up from?From what standpoint do you presume to know what constitutes a True Atheist.Who but an adherent of a faith based belief system would even bother to try to define such a state?My personal problem with an absolutist atheist stance is the belief that no deity or anything resembling one exists.Such a belief is irrational as an individual cannot Know or prove a negative.Logically, in the absence of any evidence, one should allow for the possibility that such an entity may exist, however faint.An agnostic therefore has a more justifiable stance.From a rationalist viewpoint human love is a psycho-chemically induced state that is genetically preprogrammed in order to facilitate pair bonding and infant care. This may be extended to family group members or strong friendship bonding.From an individual subjective point of view it is an emotion that one feels and is best enjoyed rather than analysed.KozBelief system - Transcendental Anarcho Shivite with Taoist tendenciesPolitics - SyndicalistSome people will believe anything. ;-)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 01:56:21 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on October 06, 2011, 09:28:41 pmIt's OK to murder a few people, as long as you don't murder too many of them?QuoteWhat relevance does this have to the topic at hand? When you are conducting debate, do not bring in random and extraneous ideas.QuoteOnce again, irrelevant. When you are conducting debate, do not invent imaginary opposing views. Address only the views presented.QuoteThis is obviously false. Love obviously can be weighed and measured. It deserves no response.QuoteOf course, because "Christians" do not support violence (unless the US military does the violence for them, and it is on the other side of the world where they cannot see it).QuoteI'll take that under advisement.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 03:32:22 am
content: Dear IanB:--I am afraid you mistook my point about the Spanish Inquisition and, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Castro, Guevara, Ho Chi Minh, et. al. My point, (as I think you well know), was not to excuse the depredations of the Spanish Inquisition, but rather to point out that, absolute power in the hands of anyone, atheists included, is likely to lead to genocide. I do not think that you believe I was saying it is alright, if you only kill a few people.--In view of the statements by Simon that:"Religion is THE most EVIL thing on this planet. ANY religion !" and ""yep seems to do nothing but create wars instead"--And the statement by HyperNova:"And don't use those cold war atheist states as examples of godless states, they simply replaced Yahweh with "Dear Leader" which is just another religion."--Do you still feel that my mentioning genocide by atheistic and theocratic states is irrelevant and extraneous? My further comments about leftist governments were in response to previous comments about outlawing religion.--You and I are in accord about the existence of love. I was saying the the true atheist believes it does not exist because it cannot be weighed or measured, not that I believe this. Please forgive me for pointing out that, you seem to have gotten the import of my statement just exactly the wrong way round. It seems to me that this point is exceedingly relevant in a discussion of religion, science and atheism.--I noted your imperative statement "do not invent". I would be more inclined to comply with your wishes, if you would put them in the form of a request, rather than a command.--Given your animus towards Christians and the US Military, it must be very irksome for you to live among the former and under the protection of the latter. In any case you are welcome here. "Let a thousand schools of thought contend" And, unlike Mao, I mean it. The solution to speech you do not like, is more speech, not less.“We’re going to do for blacks exactly what blacks did for the revolution. By which I mean: nothing.” Che GueveraBest RegardsClear Ether

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 03:55:46 am
content: why people whine when something bad happen to him or somebody else? and talk nothing when they got something good? do rich people have to believe in god because they are rich? and poor and sick must not believe in god? do you expect something like heaven around you? gosh, i wish this thread never be raised again. just lot of people dont get it, and be more and more "pampered". love can be felt but cannot be measured. if you say can, then how?

author: Kozmyk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 04:08:25 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 07, 2011, 03:55:46 amDon't worry yourself Mechatrommer.That naughty IanB has been making jokes without the use of emoticons again.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 04:57:22 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on October 07, 2011, 03:32:22 amI'm afraid I was responding in light only of the recent videos linked by Alex and your apparent direct response--not the many dozens of previous posts which I felt were mostly old and dusty. And though I seemingly did not get your point, still do not see what it has to say about the existence or otherwise of a supreme being.QuoteAs mentioned above: in the absence of other context I had assumed you were addressing the videos posted by Alex, which after all came months after the previous time this thread was active.QuoteBut once again, you seem to be imputing a belief to others without justification. Why should you decide what a "true atheist" believes if you are not one yourself? And why should a true atheist believe something so obviously false?QuoteThat was not intended as a command, rather a concise form of words. Such as, for example, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Nothing more was intended.QuoteI cannot excuse the British government any less than the US government when it comes to military adventures and atrocities committed on the world stage. There are no beacons of light here. Also please do not assume I have animosity towards a person or organization if I challenge their words or deeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 05:01:47 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 07, 2011, 03:55:46 amI'll drink to that!

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 05:38:54 am
content: Dear IanB:--Thank you for you detailed posting. I will take into consideration all that you have said. With your forbearance I will add one more small quibble. True atheists or "hard atheists" as they are called are not shy about stating that (1 There is no God. (2 People do not have souls, and do not have life after death, and (3 Love is strictly a molecular and hormonal business, if fact the delusion of conscientiousness is an artifact of this molecular machine. Surely, Sir you have read these statements. That is what I meant by true atheist. I meant the true "all in", "materialist" Dawkins type atheist. Not the so called "washy washy", "Carl Sagan" types like myself who want to have science and a soul as well. For though love and souls cannot be measured or proven, they may yet exist.--Those of my brethren who insist on an exact physical reality, might want to steer clear of quantum physics.“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.” Carl Sagan 1934-1996

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 06:50:48 am
content: Greeting EEVBees:--For those of you who think "Evil Religion" is a major cause of war in recent history. I invite you to examine the below list. Keep in mind that it is only a "War of Religion" if both side are fighting to impose their religion on the other. I.E. India (which embraces many major religions) could hardly be accused of going to war with Pakistan in order to impose Hinduism. I grant that the Irish and the Israeli "troubles" are historically rooted in religious conflict.--See below a list of wars since 1901:1904 - 1905 Russo-Japanese War1905 Revolution of 1905 in Russia1911 - 1912 Turco-Italian War fought over Libya1912 - 1913 Two Balkan Wars are fought for control of the European territories of the Ottoman Empire1914 - 1918 World War I, initially in Europe, then worldwide1916 Easter Rising rebellion in Ireland1917 - 1918 Russian Revolution1917 - 1920 Estonian Liberation War1918 Finnish Civil War, fought between "the reds" (rebellious Socialists) and "the whites" (anti-Socialists) in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution of 1917. Germany intervened on the side of the Whites.1918 - 1922 Russian Civil War, fought between "the reds" (Communists) and "the whites" (tsarists) directly after the Bolshevist Revolution. US, France and Britain also intervened on the side of the whites.1918 Polish-Czech war in Teschen Silesia1918 Viena expedition1918 - 1919 Poland and Lwow against Westukrainian Republic1918 - 1919 Great Poland Uprising, Provinz Posen against Germany1919 Third Anglo-Afghan War1919 First Silesian Uprising1919 Aunus expedition1919 - 1921 Polish-Soviet war Poland and Ukrainian Peoples Republic against Soviets1919 - 1921 Anglo-Irish War also known as the Irish War of Independence1919 - 1922 "Turkish War of Independence"1920 - 1922 Second Greco-Turkish War1920 Second Silesian Uprising Silesian Poles against Germany1921 Third Silesian Uprising Silesian Poles against Germany1922 - 1923 Irish Civil War1932 - 1935 Chaco War between Bolivia and Paraguay1934 - 1936 Northern Expedition by Kuomintang1935 - 1936 Second Italo-Abyssinian War1936 - 1939 Spanish Civil War1937 - 1945 Second Sino-Japanese War1939 - 1945 World War II1939 - 1940 Winter War; Part of WW II, Finland against Soviet Union1941 - 1944 Continuation War; Part of WW II, Finland against Soviet Union1944 - 1945 Lapland War; Part of WW II, Finland against Germany1941 - 1945 Pacific War; Part of WW II, Japan against Australia and the United States1941 - 1942 Border war between Ecuador and Peru Cold War era1944 - 1949 Greek Civil War1945 - 1949 Chinese Civil War1946 - 1954 First Indochina War1947 - 1949 First Kashmir War between India and Pakistan1948 - 1949 First Arab-Israeli War1948 - 1960 Malayan Emergency1950 - 1953 Korean War (UN-led coalition vs. North Korea)1952 - 1960 Mau Mau Uprising in Kenya1954 - 1962 Algerian War of Independence1954 - 1964 Vietnamese Civil War1955 - 1972 First Sudanese Civil War1956 Suez Crisis (Second Arab-Israeli War)1956 - 1959 Cuban Revolution1960 - 1996 Guatemalan Civil War1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion (CIA-sponsored invasion attempt by Cuban Nationals)1961 - 1975 Angolan War of Independence1962 - 1963 Sino-Indian War1964 - 1973 Vietnam War between the U.S.-led coalition (including the government of South Vietnam) and the National Liberation Front (NLF), backed by North Vietnam1964 - 1975 Mozambique's War of Independence1965 Second Kashmir War (Second Indo-Pakistani War)1965 - 1996 Chad Civil War1966 - 1988 Namibian War of Independence1967 Six-Day War (Third Arab-Israeli War)1967 - 1970 Biafra War in Nigeria1967 - 1975 Cambodian Civil War1969 Football War between Honduras and El Salvador.1971 The Pakistani Civil War that becomes the Third Indo-Pakistani War1973 Yom Kippur War (Fourth Arab-Israeli War)1974 - 1991 Ethiopian Civil War1975 - 1989 Angolan Civil War1975 - 1991 Lebanese Civil War1975 - 1998 War of Indepence in East Timor1979 Sino-Vietnamese War1979 - 1992 El Salvador Civil War1980 - 1988 Iran-Iraq War1981 Border war between Ecuador and Peru1982 Falklands War between United Kingdom and Argentina1982 Lebanon War1982 - 1984 Mozambique's Ciwil War1983 Operation Urgent Fury, U.S.-sponsored invasion of Grenada1983 - 2000 Civil War in Sri Lanka Post-Cold War era1988 - 1994 Nagorno-Karabakh war between Armenia and Azerbaijan1989 - 1990 Operation Just Cause, United States invades Panama1990 - 1991 Persian Gulf War between Iraq and UN-led coalition1990 - 1992 Rwanda Civil War1991 - 2001 Yugoslav Wars1991 Slovenian War1991 - 1995 Croatian War1992 - 1995 Bosnian War1998 - 1999 Kosovo War2001 Macedonian War1991 - 1993 Georgian civil wars1991 - 1992 South Ossetian war1992 - 1994 Abkhazian War1993 Georgian civil war, western Georgia1991 - 1997 Sierra Leone Civil War1993 - 1999 Burundi Civil War1994 Yemen Civil War1994 - 1996 First Chechen War1995 Cenepa War between Peru and Ecuador1996 - 1997 Liberian Civil War1998 - 2000 Border war between Ethiopia and Eritrea1999 Kargil Conflict1999 - 2003 Second Liberian Civil War2006 - Lebanon War between Israel and the Hezbollah (organization in Southern Lebanon) Ongoing wars1947 - Kashmir conflict between India and Pakistan1948 - Palestinian conflict with the Israelis1966 - Colombian Civil War1977 - Somalian Civil War1978 - Afghanistan Civil War1978 - Communist coup of 19781978 - 1992 Civil war between Mujahideen and Democratic Republic of Afghanistan1979 - 1989 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan1992 - 1993 Civil War between different tribal military forces1994 - 2001 Civil War between Taliban movement and Northern alliance2001 - United States war in Afghanistan1983 - Second Sudanese Civil War1992 - Civil War in Algeria1994 - Zapatista Revolution in Mexico1995 - Second Ugandan Civil War1996 - Civil War in Nepal1999 - Second Chechen War2001 - Civil War in Côte d'Ivoire2003 - Invasion of Iraq12003 - Darfur conflict, Sudan2004 - Haiti rebellion2008 - Second South Ossetia War--A casual perusal of this list leads me to the conclusion that if all people were secular, the vast majority of these wars would occur anyway for reasons of Nationalism, Resources, and Land. Indeed religion in the time of monarchies could arguably be said to be a major cause of wars, but since the time of Napoleon, not so much.--What say you?"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? William Butler Yeats 1865-1939

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 12:08:21 pm
content: Quote from: Kozmyk on October 07, 2011, 01:51:03 amTripe indeed. But give'em a break, they don't have much else to argue withQuoteDepends on how you define Atheism.In most sensible definitions it is simply "A lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".And no credible Atheist I know thinks it is an absolutist thing.They simply base their "belief" that there is no god, the same way they do for almost everything else in life, evidence and reason.And of course based on the evidence (or practically complete lack thereof) and all the other absurd contradictions with all religions, theThe appearance of "absolutism" comes form the fact that to any rational free-thinking person who has investigated the matter, we are about as sure that there is no god as we are about gravity and evolution.In my view an Agnostic is just someone who hasn't bothered to care enough to actually think about the subject in more detail and declare themselves an Atheist. Or simply takes the laissez-faire and non-confrontational approach, which is of course fine. Of course Agnostics are actually Atheists by almost all accounts, the only practical difference between the two is that one has the balls to come out and call it as bunk based on the evidence. Or Agnostics they may see some more "credibility" in the evidence for a god than an Atheist does, but it's still clear which side of the fence they sit on.Atheists can be swayed, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.QuoteYes, and there is a ton of scientific evidence for love, morals, and all the other supposedly "unexplainable" things attributed to a creator.There is in fact now almost a complete scientific view of how and why humans are prone to believing in gods and how it evolved.QuoteIsn't there far cooler stuff to believe in than some all-powerful creator that you must constantly pray to, appease, and live in eternal judgement under as a servant?Granted, it's a hell of a story, but were is the fun?Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 12:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on October 07, 2011, 06:50:48 amBut I think you'll find that most of them are not as "secular" as you claim. Belief in religion plays a big part in emotions and justifications for many aspects of war, both privately and publicly, at almost every level of the chain of command. But yes, you are correct that modern wars are not usually fought over religion, but religion is almost always used a motivator and woven into the whole thing once the wars are started.Take the 2003 Iraq war for example. Bush famously said that "god told him to invade iraq", among much other stuff and many announcements about the war from within churches. And every American president that I am aware of in modern times has the words god bless, god protect, blah blah woven into every speech about the war.Hardly secular.Dave.

author: Kozmyk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 03:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2011, 12:08:21 pmAs you say a definition in terms.The Wikipedia definition says "the rejection of belief in the existence of deities"The operative word being "rejection".I like to think that one who admits to not knowing something is being more honest with themselves than one who maintains that it is so without having any proof.In that light I suppose I should prefer the description Agnostic Atheist or "Ateapotist" to quote Bertrand Russell (in honour of whom my middle name was given).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheismI think that to ascribe a lack of "balls" to such a stance is an unnecessarily emotional response, in and of itself pointlessly confrontational.Is a scientist who dares to consider the possibility that a neutrino may travel faster than light "sitting on the fence" ?No, however much they may believe that it cannot, they have to admit to themselves that it may just be possible until further evidence proves otherwise.Cooler things to believe in?Universal sentience - that would make us the universe observing itself.Many worlds interpretation - how many ones are you?Harry Potter - will manifest - magickYou name it ...I'm too busy trying to enjoy myself to be bothered with belief.I guess that makes me a Hedonistic Agnostic Atheist.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 08:17:47 pm
content: Dear Dave:--I thank you for your response to my posting about wars and thier causes. With regard to your contention that George Bush said "God told me to invade Iraq"; Let me point out that I able to find only one source for this "quote", which I will detail below."""""In Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, a major three-part series on BBC TWO (at 9.00pm on Monday 10, Monday 17 and Monday 24 October), Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ." And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"""""--I would like to point out that BBC does not quote George Bush as saying "God told me to invade Iraq", it quotes Nabil Shaath, Palestinian Foreign Minister as saying this is more or less what Bush told him. Minister Shaath's office's position on the non-existence the holocaust, is well known, and has previously told us that:"There is no tangible evidence of any Jewish traces/remains in the old city of Jerusalem and its immediate vicinity."--This BBC quote is from a time when there was an internal war going on at the BBC, and editorial opinions, seemed to be leaking over into the hard news. Case in point would be the "Kelly Affair" or the "Gilligan Affair". Andrew Gilligan, BBC corresponden alleged that the Blair administration had deliberately lied about the intelligence regarding WMDs in Iraq, had falsified documents and "sexed up" the dossiers. Subsequently, under pressure from the Government, Gilligan broke his pledge of annonomity to his source, Kelly, who then comitted suicide Truely, now the fit had hit the shan. Then:"Panorama [a BBC program] condemns BBC's own conduct in Kelly affair, By Alasdair Palmer 12:01AM GMT 18 Jan 2004 [excerpt below]"''''No one asked to see his notes, however, and so the BBC only discovered that what came to be the central plank of its defence - that Mr Gilligan was "only faithfully reporting the words that his source had told him" - was unsupported when the reporter gave evidence to the Hutton Inquiry.He was then forced to admit that "I do regard those words as imperfect and I should not have said them.''''''--While you may indeed be correct and the quote may indeed be accurate, I just wanted to point out the troubles of the BBC at that time, and that the ultimate source of the quote is from people who celebrated 9-11 by handing out candy. And so a grain of salt might be indicated.--P.S. I noticed while I was posting this that your newest Video is up. I cannot wait to see how you pull off a "Walk Time Rant". You should get a dog, perhaps, to walk with you."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan 1934-1996Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 09:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2011, 12:08:21 pmDo you have a reference for this definition? All credible references (i.e. not Wikipedia or some random dude's video blog) I checked define it as a belief that God does not exist.Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2011, 12:08:21 pmI disagree. The absence of credible evidence in favor of theism is a much weaker proof than the evidence in support of gravity and evolution. It's much easier to prove the existence of something than to prove that something does not exist. The fact that one side has so far failed to scientifically prove the existence of God does not automatically mean that the other side has proven their point.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 10:22:49 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 07, 2011, 09:30:23 pmAnd that "belief" is based on (lack of evidence) evidence and reason. It is not blind belief or faith.Every Atheist I know takes this stance.QuoteI never said they have, and no credible Atheist will ever claim to have proven anything. Atheists don't try and "prove" anything, they simply won't believe in extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence!Dave.

author: Kozmyk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 10:46:47 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on October 07, 2011, 06:50:48 amGood old W.B.I carried his version of the Bhagavad Gita all over India and beyond.One does a lot of reading when travelling; waiting for trains, buses etc.Access to TV in India wasn't what it was back home either.First time I'd ever read Revelations right through as well.There's a great story for you.Multi-headed beasts, magical seals, end of the world.Great stuff.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2011, 11:53:15 pm
content: Dave, though I can see what you mean by describing yourself as anatheist, this is a matter of semantics.As I wrote inmy previous message(but did not properly support it),atheism is not a god-free system of belief. In fact, Atheism and Theism are the two opposite poles of the same subject matter, revolving around the existence or not of god(s).Actually, according toOxford English Dictionary,theism:a. gen. Belief in a deity, or deities, as opposed to atheism.b. Belief in one god, as opposed to polytheism or pantheism; = monotheism.c. Belief in the existence of God, with denial of revelation: = deismd. esp. Belief in one God as creator and supreme ruler of the universe, without denial of revelation: in this use distinguished from deism.[from Greek? (god) + -ism.][from Greek theos (god) + -ism.] *atheism:Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God. Also, Disregard of duty to God, godlessness (practical atheism).[adoption of French athéisme (16th c. in Littré), from Greek?? from privative ? +? (god) and -ism.][adoption of French athéisme (16th c. in Littré), from Greek atheos from privative a + theos (god) and -ism.] *On the other hand, I chose for me the termunreligiousbecause it describes a person indifferent to or not related to religion; in contrary to the termirreligiousthat describes a person that can be perceived as someone indifferent or hostile to religion.No hostility here; only rationality.Me being unreligious means that I do not really care what all the religious doctrines preach to their gullible customers because I do not recognise any religious dogmas as authorities in my life; nor can I take seriously anything I strongly believe to be outrageous lies (i.e. afterlives and resurrections promises, meekness and conformity as the answer to fear-mongering supernatural threats, magical waters and entities, supernatural events, etc.) that --factually-- have always been used bythose in powerto steer deceivinglythe massesin favour of the former ones and against the interests of the latter ones."Causality" and "Who benefits?" are the major keys for me to analyse almost anything.-George[ * ] EDIT: Please, Dave, fix the database support of the Greek language...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 12:39:18 am
content: @GeorgeI'm not sure I can clearly discern a difference between atheism and being unreligious in your description. Atheism is really the rational position that leads one to be unreligious.One also should make a clear distinction between religion and the existence of God (or gods, or spirits, or supernatural beings). One could in principle believe in the supernatural without feeling that it has any particular bearing on the day to day process of going about ones daily life.If we talk about the existence of God, this is where we can state a position in two ways: either believing that God does not exist, or not believing in the existence of God. Are they different? I argue that they are not.For instance, I do not believe in the existence of a parallel Earth orbiting on the other side of the sun. I also believe that there is no parallel Earth orbiting on the other side of the sun. Is one statement stronger than the other? I do not think so. I think either statement is an equivalent expression of the rational position, that no credible evidence exists for a counter-heliacal Earth-like planet. Given no such evidence, it is unnecessary to hold such a belief. One does not have to go further and spend time proving there is an empty hole in space where such a planet might be. If someone suggests you should spend such time, the logical and rational answer is "Why?".

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 01:14:06 am
content: let me repeat. religion does not provoke war. human lust of power does. power of money, power of knowledge, power of economy etc. if someone say religion causes havocs, he simply dont have enough knowledge about religion. and people who make war, they dont follow religion teaching. simple as that.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 01:26:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 08, 2011, 12:39:18 amI will give my translation about this dilemma.The automatic spellchecker in Firefox gives me the wordunreligiousas Error and thenonreligiousas correct.Even so, atheist is the one who does not accept to believe in any God, and does a public fight so to prove to the others that they are wrong.He does not say that there is not God's, he just reject's them.The unreligious or nonreligious are all the undecided, the undecided person can change his mind in time, if he receive a proof that there is something superior than him, out there.I do not know what happens worldwide, but in Greece there is daily miracles that happens to the people who really deserves them.This would probably sound like ... Become a christian so to receive a free miracle, but hey no, it does not work that way.But there is also and another reality, like that the people who had receive a miracle they are afraid to speak about it,so to not be flamed by the others publicly.What those people do ? they just return to the temple over and over every year,and silently they thanks God about the help that they got.Some people say or wonder why God does not do this or that... like to expect a public sign so to believe ?And the bottom line, or the truth that I believe, are that the relation of the humans with God, is an extremely personal thing.Every one walks alone about creating one such relation.Simple as that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 08:07:19 am
content: Quote from: A Hellene on October 07, 2011, 11:53:15 pmOnly if you want to confuse the issue further than it already is. I don't really care for semantics such.QuoteCorrect.You either sit on the side of the fence of believing in their being a god (religious + theists), or you sit on the side of the fence of saying you don't believe in a god or gods. Once again, less any theist become mistaken, that's "belief" based on (lack of) evidence and reason.That non-belief side of the fence is the default position, and includes Athesist, Agnostics, and simply the "non-religious" in general. You have to specifically "opt-in" to the belief side of things.In fact, having said that, THAT is in fact a major (if not the major) problem I have with religion in today's society.Religion for a very long time has been essentially an "opt-out" system by convention, with children being labeled with the faith of their parents etc. And that's not the way it should be, it's wrong.That's why I and many other Athiests are outspoken on the issue, because it's a defacto "opt-out" system. It if wasn't, and it was just some small groups of people who wanted to believe in such stuff, then that would be just fine, we wouldn't care, and wouldn't bother to label ourselves as atheists and promote it. Just like we wouldn't care about called ourselves anti-bigfoot or whatever.You could say I'm Agnostic or a simple non-believer when it comes to bigfoot, or aliens, or supernatural stuff or whatever. I just don't care enough about those thing to label myself using a "stronger" term, like Atheist commonly is for religion.QuoteAnd therein lies the problem with the semantics of it all when you start whipping out the dictionary definitions.One thing the dictionary does not tell you is WHY an Athesist "disbelieves" or "denies" the existence of a god or gods.If you actually go our and ask Atheists, almost all of them will tell you it is because of the lack of evidence, among many other factors based on reason. Unsurprisingly, that's also the EXACT SAME reasons Agnostics and non-religious people in general will use too to explain (when pressed) why they generally don't believe.So an Agnostic or non-believer is really no different to an Atheist, regardless of what dictionary definition you want to drag out.If anyone wants to start nick-picking and trying to figure out exactly at which threshold of evidence/reason/doubt one moves from being an Agnostic to an Atheist, then good luck, because it's pointless to even try. They are both the same side of the coin.QuoteSure, and there very often no hostility in Athesists either, they just generally prefer to speak louder about it and debate it more than an Agnostic or simply and "nonreligious" person. Either way, all three sit on the same side.QuoteYou can call yourself anything you like, that's fine by me, I have absolutely no problem with it.I prefer to call myself an Athiest.QuoteWhat's the problem exactly?Dave.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 12:04:22 pm
content: dont be angry davedont be... too religious!its very seldom to see you post such a long, and doubled "post".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 12:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 08, 2011, 12:04:22 pmI guess I have nothing better to do tonightDave.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 03:14:42 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--I have no problems with religious people in general, but there is one group that really irritates me. And that is the anti-evolutionary bunch. I take a serious interest in the serious scientific debate over whether birds evolved directly from therapod dinosaurs or were present in the fossil record much earlier. I also have an interest in the serious scientific debate about the dinosaur extinction, the Chixalub impact, the KT boundary and so forth.--My problem is this; Every time I try to do any web research on these topics, I have to weed my way through hundreds of listings containing the most sophomoric quibblings, nigglings, and nit pickings, regarding evolution and the fossil record. It is like they are trying to overwhelm us with decoys to keep us from finding out what serious scientists have to say. They seem to prefer to quibble with the fossil record mole hills, and to shy away from the DNA mountain.--If I were them I would spend a lot more time proving that the sun actually goes around the earth which is only 6000 years old. But apparently since an exact and complete interpretation of the fossil record is not possible, they think they can jump in and point out some small unsettled question and tip over the entire table. It would be like me saying I have proved the Bible wrong on the the age of the earth, therefore the ancient kingdom of Israel is a fairy tale.--Now the "Birds Are Dinosaurs", "Meteor Killed Dinosaurs" and "Global Warming" zealots indeed can be irritating (especially with the media being enamored of these topics), running around screaming "Its settled science, its settled science", and trying to blacken the reputation of any one who disagrees with them. But at least they have limited them selves to argument, and have not tried to cover up the entire WWW with trash and nuisance postings. Indeed the anti-evolutionists are at least a hundred times as irritating as the others."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan 1934-1996Best RegardsClear Ether

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2011, 07:48:10 pm
content: Ahh! You will absolutely love this!Theism, Agnosticism and Religiosity under philosophical (==rational) examination, in a free book calledAgainst the Gods?, courtesy of Stefan Molyneux, host of the Philosophy conversation websiteFreedomain Radioand theFreedomain Radio YouTube channel.In this book, the writer argues about the costs of false ethics and the Religion as Child Abuse, amongst other fundamental issues derived by this ancient institution calledreligion. The introduction of this free book is also available in video documentary form, embellished with powerful images that speak for themselves.This is the seven and a half minutes long video clip of the book's introduction chapter:...and this is the full deal, for those lazy enough to read a less than forty pages long book:-George

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2011, 12:12:59 am
content: Dear George:--I would hate to offend you by taking you out of context or misstating your position. Are you recommending Freedom Radio as a place for truth or humor. I am unfamiliar with it."The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."Winston ChurchillBest RegardsClear Ether

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2011, 01:21:59 am
content: I'm not offended in any way. I am sorry, though, if the opening statement in my previous message might have been misinterpreted as sarcastic; if this was the case it is my fault, since I know that my command of English is far from perfect.According to my perception, there are no panaceas; no absolute truths; no absolute anything, since this is the very definition of thedogmas. But I would not hesitate to recommend Stefan Molyneux's philosophical views, since I cannot (or, I am unable to) find any serious flaws in his aspects, his rationale and the historical accuracy of his works. On the contrary, his perception appears to be accurate enough and his dissections seem to be of high precision.For example, another one of his latest books under the sarcastic title "The Handbook of Human Ownership: A Manual for New Tax Farmers" is one of the best reads I have had for years. It is about the history of human exploitation by other humans; it is a rather indigestible piece of work, verbalised in the second-person singular as a monologue of an archon (a ruler) giving advices to a newly anointed politician about the duties and the benefits of his new position. Actually, this book is the sequel of his introduction to the concept of Human Ownership, this ancient institution that proudly lives even today, half a millennium after the end of the Dark Ages...Anyway, these are the two video-documentaries on the concept ofHuman Ownershipthat I would unreservedly recommend to anyone looking for answers to watch:and-George