Hello!  New member with multimeter questions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 04:59:04 pm
content: Hello! I'm Chris, a first time poster and a recent member of the community. However, I'm a pretty frequent member of the Madbean forum, dedicated to the DYI guitar pedal building and other musical creations. When I started on this journey of pedal building a couple of years ago, I made sure to grab the essential components. One of which is a Multimeter. I looked on Amazon, and found Mastech one. This one seemed to be a good price and had tons of functions:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JQ4O2U/ref=s9_acsd_hps_bw_c_x_1_wA couple of years later, and my multimeter is starting to go a bit haywire. I'll often turn the big dial to a particular function, and the functionality goes in and out. For example, if I turn it to test resistance, sometimes it jumps to hFE, sometimes to capacitance. When measuring values, sometimes it take a long time to settle down; resistors when measured can take up to a minute to zero in on the value. So I'm starting to look at getting another one (potentially having this as a backup or a 2nd) and wanted to see what the community's experience was.I know these are the functions I 100% use:* Resistance (from 10E to 10M)* Continuity* Fwd Voltage on Diodes* Capacitance (from 1pF to 500mF)* DC Voltage (nothing above 30V)* hFE for Transistors (I have a board I built to test this so it's not mandatory)* DC Amperage (nothing above 1000mA)I posted something similar on my pedal forum, and got some responses. Then I found this forum and realized there was a whole slew of options that were out there. I have spent some time reading through posts, trying to understand what various Multimeters do in various price ranges. For my application for pedal building, I don't need AC measurements. While I will at some point move into building some AC devices (tube amps are somewhere in my future), the most important thing to me now is accurate measurement of components in terms of resistance and capacitance in the ranges I mentioned above. My previous pedal had issues measuring capacitance at the higher ranges (the biggest caps I put in pedals are in the 220-470mF range). Pedals often require biasing, especially around transistors, so accurate measurement of DC Voltage is very important. I measure DC amperage to determine how many pedals I can run off a single power supply. While something that measures hFE would be nice, it's not crucial as I'm considering buying the PeAK tester, which is capable of measuring both silicon and germanium components.Based on the things I'm looking for, I was hoping to pick up a Multimeter in the $60ish range that focuses on accurate component values across the range I mentioned.. However, if my price is way off, let me know. I'm a hobbyist, so while I would like a quality meter that will last for the foreseeable future, I have some other upgrades I'd like to make (like a new soldering iron). I'm trying to determine what my best buy would be.For an FYI, here's some of the suggestions from my pedal group:* Extech EX330* Tekpower TP40* Vichy VC97* Extech MN47Since finding this forum, I've also discovered the Uni-T UT61's, which appear to meet my qualifications.Thanks again for taking a look! It's awesome to find a portion of a community so devoted to something like this.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:14:48 pm
content: Hello Timko // Chris,welcome aboardYou might want to check out some threads on that matter:The multimeter comparison almanachJoe Smiths in depth testing for electric safetyThere are several more threads on different multimeters, specific to the devices you can find via the forum search.One of the more popular meters around here with a good bang-for-the-buck ratio is the Uni-Trend UT139C (and the UT210E as a clamp meter). These have the same chip as the Vichy VC97 you already listed afaik.Then again there are so many models and options on the market and it all depends on what you need the DMM for.Also: Seea list of recommended DMMs

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: Timko on April 04, 2017, 04:59:04 pmIf you want help trying to fix your meter, start a new thread and I can make suggestions. The most basic thing you can do is take it apart and closely examine the rotary switch for debris or wear/tear. Something like, using the Fluke 83 as pictorial examples of rotary switch with debris on it, below.http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-83-iii-rotary-switch/http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-83-dmm-repair/

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 05:40:26 pm
content: I'd say the UNI-T UT-139C provides the best cost/performance ratio for your budget:https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10002748/6659300-uni-t-ut139c-handheld-true-rms-digital-multimeterCosts $39, but has no HFE.You also have the UT890C+ ($19.8 after coupon discount):http://www.banggood.com/UNI-T-UT890C-Digital-True-RMS-Multimeter-Multimetro-Tester-With-Test-Lead-Cable-p-1020185.html?rmmds=searchWhich does have HFE (but is manual ranging).

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 04, 2017, 05:14:48 pmThanks for the response! I originally looked at the spreadsheet you posted earlier, but I quickly realized it was probably more information than I could understand right now. So the list of recommended DMMs really helps!

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:15:51 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on April 04, 2017, 05:28:53 pmThis looks great! I think having a 2nd DMM is a good idea for me at this point, but I will be taking my old one apart and trying to repair it now.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:36:17 pm
content: I'm partial to Fluke myself, sometimes you can find a reasonable price on an older one.Cheap meters tend to try to dazzle you with loads of useless to marginally useful features but they rarely perform really well at the core tasks a multimeter is designed to do.

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 04, 2017, 06:36:17 pmSounds like you're making a very broad generalization here!There's generally a higher level of fluctuations (in terms of overall build quality and input protection) with the more reasonably priced multimeters, however, this does not necessarily mean that they're under-performing (each case to it's own really)And as far as Fluke goes, not a big fan of their meters. I mean, in terms of build quality/input protection, they don't cut corners and are 10/10 in that regards, however, in terms of price vs features, they're nothing short of appalling! I can understand it if a manufacturer wanna charge a higher amount of money than it's competitors if it got a good reputation, but Fluke are definitely taking it to the extremes with their offerings.Not only you have to pay 2-4 time more, but you get a lot less for your money in terms of features (in compare to other brands)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:06:58 pm
content: It depends on the model, yes they are expensive but the better ones are built right here in Everett about 30 minutes from my house. Fluke is a local business to me that has a long history of producing very good products built in the USA. I won't buy their low end China produced stuff though, if I'm going to buy a Chinese meter I'll just buy a cheaper brand.

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:14:11 pm
content: My Mastech DMM has leads that have pretty big tips. I often find it's difficult to troubleshoot some of my builds with the leads (image below). I didn't even know there was such a thing as "good leads" until I found this place.Is there a company I should be looking to for better leads than others? Are there lead tips that are particularly good at reading values on the backside of a PCB (mine totally suck at that)?This, BTW, is a pretty middle of the road build for me (not too big, not to small; it's an distortion pedal with octave up and down options). Ignore some of the crazy values, like the 100pF 400V capacitor, it was my first time ordering from Mouser and I was a bit overwhelmed.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:31:25 pm
content: If I was situated in the U.S. I would definitely get some stuff from Probe Master!(Mainly, because everyone here on the forum seems to be giving raving reviews)You should find some threads on this brand via the forum search.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:43:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 04, 2017, 07:06:58 pmthe only fluke I can think of that is in his price range and has useful features is the 8060a.as far as I can tell, nobody will sell one of their newer meters at the price point the OP wants.for probe tips, super sharp tips is generally going to be your choice for poking pcbs.probemaster has really nice probes, but they're still going to cost you a bit more. if you want cheap and disposable, the fluke tl10 with rubber coating (none of the nice bendy silicone cabling) are good cheap (12$) probes.

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:01:53 pm
content: I looked at the Super Provide site, and I believe this is exactly the kind of probe I'm looking forhttp://probemaster.com/1207-1208-extender-tip-4/However, a kit with the standard pieces in it is going to set me back $50, so perhaps I can look around for a less expensive option.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:05:36 pm
content: Sorry I missed the price point in the initial post.I'm sure there are some decent meters in that range, just stay away from the bottom of the barrel crap and be wary of meters that seem to offer everything and the kitchen sink. DC and AC voltage, current, continuity and diode test are about the only features I use with any regularity. Min/max/hold is handy once in a while, and true RMS is really nice if you do any work with AC.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:16:10 pm
content: I saw that the Fluke 8010 bench multimeters go incredibly cheap (from 20$ buy-it-now) on eBay.comMaybe that’s also an option to consider?

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 04, 2017, 08:16:10 pmSince I'm sort of new to this, would it be risky buying something used that may not quite work right? I'm sure if you know how to repair them then it's a steal, but I'm not quite in the market for anything that requires work.

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:24:58 pm
content: Sorry, one more question. I notice that a lot of folks pick up DMMs off of eBay. Is that pretty much safe? I suppose in the $50/$60 range there isn't a lot of counterfeiting.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 09:21:53 pm
content: Used stuff is always a risk, but I've had good luck myself. I'd trust a used Fluke/Tek/Agilent over a new Chinese noname any day. Unless abused it will normally be fine.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 09:38:14 pm
content: Quote from: Timko on April 04, 2017, 08:23:30 pmSo, I have this high dollar DMM that I just about smoked! Maybe I can offload it on eBay...I recently bought two bench DMMs via eBay and they came out fine so it's not all gloom and doom.A few weeks back I bought an ANENG AN860B-TRMS meter for $22 with free 13 day delivery from China.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Multimeter-6000-Counts-AC-DC-Ammeter-Voltmeter-Temperature-Meter-AN860B-/311773197220I wrote a little review of its accuracy here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an860b-multimeter/msg1159254/#msg1159254The accuracy is phenomenal! It won't match my Fluke 189 but few meters will. For a kick around on the bench handheld meter, this thing is fantastic.The downside: Some argue that it can't possibly meet its stated safety specs and I'll concede right up front that it has glass fuses and lacks voltage isolation slots. Whether that means it really doesn't meet spec or it just means it's blue and not green, I don't know. OTOH, who's to say that any other meter meets its safety rating. The high dollar Fluke's - probably. All the low end stuff, maybe not.I don't much care because if I ever use it on the mains, it will be 240V or, more likely, 120V. There is also a good chance I will have the meter on Volts, not Amps, when I jam the probes into the circuit breakers. This is the key! Know what range you are on! BTW, the AN860B does not warn against incorrect lead connections. Some of the better meters do and this is a great featureI also bought 2 of the EEVblog meters for somewhere around $125 each and they are also great meters. And I have one of the Vichy VC99 meters and it also works well - but I haven't checked the accuracy of any of these.I go back far enough to have worked on vacuum tube equipment with a VOM, no fuse protection, no swapped lead protection and, in fact, no shrouded banana plugs. Somehow I survived!FWIW, the EEVblog Brymen BM235 does warn when the leads are inserted incorrectly. This is kind of a big deal!

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 11:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: Timko on April 04, 2017, 08:23:30 pmI think you've answered your own question here. If you don't wanna risk it, then avoid buying used gear.Personally, I still think you'd be best going with one of the UNI-T's I've mentioned in my first reply.Quote from: Timko on April 04, 2017, 08:24:58 pmAs long as the seller has good feedback (and the product is sold as new), it should be.The feedback part is a hit and miss though, in some cases, it's impossible to find a seller that has 100% (or mostly) positive feedback.Generally speaking, if it's a product that you can get from a respected online store, you'd always be better off getting it from there over ebay.Quote from: Timko on April 04, 2017, 08:01:53 pmYou could simply get this set:http://www.banggood.com/P1300B-12-in-1-Super-Multimeter-Probe-Replaceable-Probe-Clamp-Meter-Test-Lead-kits-Alligator-Clips-p-1131634.html?rmmds=searchIt includes needle ends in multiple sizes!You might find these useful too though:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Piercing-Needle-Non-destructive-Test-Probe-4mm-Banana-Sharp-Tip-Long-Insulation-/231502603835

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 01:48:32 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 04, 2017, 08:16:10 pmThere are quite a few on eBay right now. That meter has been around since 1978 or at least that is the date on Rev 2 of the manual.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 02:06:03 am
content: Since you are also in a guitar forum you understand how much emotion can play into evaluation of a product. Virtually anything will meet your stated needs, and most will do it reliably for years. Little or nothing exceeds the reliability of a Fluke, but I find that most meters will last until the catastrophic oops that will destroy even a Fluke. Whether it is being dropped from the top of a tower, or backed over by an automobile in the garage/shop or connected improperly to line voltages things happen to meters that get used that are beyond expectation for anything.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 09:25:32 am
content: QuoteAs well as a multimeter - consider a $20 transistor tester for semiconductor/ active devices. It will give you voltage drop for diodes/leds, also hFE for bjts, and mosfet gate capacitance, and threshold voltage. I use mine for capacitors and inductors - but for more accuracy a LCR meter like the DER5000 is good - although they're more expensive.

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 01:48:01 pm
content: This is a pretty cool device; I may have to pick one up. I see them all over eBay; I suppose I can just buy anyone for decent readings, or is there one that people would recommend?For transistor testing, a lot of the more established builders purchase a Peak Atlas because it's capable of measuring both Germanium and Silicon trannys. Peak makes awesome devices, but they're sort of 1 track pony's. However, if you're building vintage effects like Fuzz Faces then you have to be able to measure gain and leakage for a Germanium component.http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_dca55.html

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 02:52:17 pm
content: Thanks for all the help. After considering my needs right now (accurate measurement of components, biasing components based on frequency/voltage, and troubleshooting any issues on densely populated PCBs where there is little current or voltage), I felt that the UNI-T UT139C fit my needs at the best price. I got it last night, and construction wise it feels a lot more solid than my Mastech.Now it's onto finding some good test leads that don't cost $50...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 03:33:31 pm
content: Did it not come with reasonable leads?The standard Fluke TL75 leads are under $25 brand new. They should work with most meters.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 04:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: Timko on April 07, 2017, 02:52:17 pmWelcome and congratulations on your purchase! For test leads it is possible the UT139 already comes with decent ones. In your case I would instead invest in accessories such as alligator clips and grabbers to your test leads - something similar to what is shown inthis eBay listing.These things are of great help probing circuits.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 04:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: Timko on April 07, 2017, 02:52:17 pmThe leads that come with the UT139C are pretty good leads. If you want a step up you trust our friend here on eevblog forums, Frankie, who has an ebay store. He has a couple of option:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digitek-Gold-Plated-Test-Leads-Probes-for-Multimeters-CAT-III-1000V-/171120395118http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-Silicone-Gold-Plated-Test-Leads-Probes-for-Multimeters-CAT-IV-1000V-/171162377470

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 04:42:08 pm
content: It comes with leads, but I am considering something very small as I am at some point going to start working with SMD parts and boards. The last set of probes on my Mastech were a little too big to reach around some of the components, so I was considering something thinner. But the leads with the UNI-T may be fine; I was hoping to find a way to connect the pinchers or alligator clips to the leads themselves. With my Mastech, I had to use a double ended alligator clip to connect and it was sort of a mess.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 04:52:21 pm
content: Well not to sound like a Fluke salesperson, but they offer a set of alligator clips that slip onto the standard probe tips.I'm sure any number of other brands have similar offerings.

author: Timko
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 05:04:10 pm
content: Oh cool! I didn't realize that. I was thinking that they had different connection wires for the ones with all the different tips (clips, pinchers, lugs, etc). If that's the case, then all I need is a tip to slip on it since I have a decent set of leads. Thanks! I'm going to pick up some of those tiny pinchers and alligator clips to start.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 06:20:32 pm
content: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ETA3201-Slip-On-Sharp-1mm-Probe-Tips-for-Multimeter-Probes-1-Pair-Red-Black-/171959888985

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2017, 07:10:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 07, 2017, 04:52:21 pmhttp://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=multimeter+crocodile+clips

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 09:26:15 am
content: Quote from: Timko on April 07, 2017, 04:42:08 pmThese from ProbeMaster have become my everyday probes, precisely for PCB work:http://probemaster.com/dmm-multimeter-test-leads/spring-loaded-test-leads/Get the set, it comes with both spring loaded and fixed needle tips.