Morphy Richards Ductless Portable Air Conditioner funded by Kickstarter! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: elliottveares
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 08:40:48 pm
content: I couldn't quite believe it when I saw it, and then I found out that it was being funded by Kickstarter when Morphy Richards is a established UK company (est 1936) and is worth multi millions according to sources online.TLDR, they are trying to sell ductless portable air conditioner with A-Class energy efficiency that issupposedlynot a swamp cooler but a normal portable AC unit that does not require a duct.Kick starter is here:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1464329619/morphy-richards-first-ductless-portable-air-conditioner?ref=7uvdqcYouTube video is here:At best it's just a elaborate swamp cooler in my opinion, but feel it's far worse in reality! It's either that and is going to make the room really humid or else it's violating the laws of thermodynamics.Would love if Dave did a video on this, as this is complete BS to me. As Scotty would say, I Can't Change The Laws Of Physics.Regards: Elliott.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 08:46:09 pm
content: Uh yeah. So the hot side is not heating up the room because it's cooled down with water. Sure. Who would have thought, that's genius.

author: elliottveares
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 08:51:19 pm
content: Which is not only going to increase the relative humidity in the room, but will also eventfully start heating the room up as well when the air reaches saturation, not to mention the heat from the compressor itself.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 09:13:13 pm
content: One application is if you are working in a large unconditioned warehouse, sometimes you want cool air blowing on you while you are working. And you don't really care if you heat up the warehouse, its not significant.Of course in a small house or room thats not going to work. You can also just use a normal portable AC to accomplish this, it doesn't need to be some fancy "ductless" model.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 09:19:19 pm
content: Is it designed a bit like a condenser tumble dryer - produce a tank of hot water which has to be periodically emptied?Let's say it has a 20L tank, that's about the maximum I think a healthy adult could lift out of the machine to empty it. 20L of water at, let's say, maximum safe contact temperature of 60C to avoid scalding, and starting off at the tap temperature of 20C (summer's day). So 40C rise of 20L of water - by my maths that's just around 0.93kWh.Even a 5000BTU unit will move more heat than that in an hour... and that will just about be enough for a small box room.So yeah, I must be missing something here.Surely they can't just be dumping humid heat directly into the room... yes, that will cool down the surface of whatever the cold outlet is pointed at, but the room will still get warmer!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 01:16:21 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 20, 2024, 09:13:13 pmYeah, that works for a while, until ambiant air is saturated (and if it's not already in humid areas).

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 03:02:32 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 20, 2024, 09:19:19 pmSo have a hose to dump out hot water and another hose to bring in cool water. Then redirect the water so it can be used for showers or whatever. Wait a minute, I built something like that 11 years ago...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 03:05:50 am
content: Seems odd that a huge company like Morphy Richards (which is part owned by the Chinese and the Irish) should launch a kickstarter campaign.It kind of goes against the spirit of Kickstarter.Why use their own R&D money when someone else can pay for it? It doesn't sit right with me.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 03:45:49 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 21, 2024, 03:02:32 amHow did that turn out in practice?There are certainly many opportunities for optimizing our use of energy for heating & cooling. We need to cool stuff and heat other stuff and usually, we do both completely separately.Since cooling (except when purely using evaporation, which is endothermic) generates heat with compressors (so AC, fridges, etc), reusing that to heat water for our hot water needs makes sense. Storing that heat instead of releasing it in the air.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 04:53:24 am
content: I turned a 30 pint per day dehumidifier into a water cooled air conditioner, dumping 120F hot water down the drain. My (now) wife said it worked better than a 1 ton, single pipe portable ac.It only pulled 400 watts compared to 1200!

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 04:57:10 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 21, 2024, 03:02:32 amSeems a little complex, got a block diagram?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 05:05:07 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 21, 2024, 03:45:49 amWorked very well. Better in summer than winter, which turns out to be the majority of Texas weather anyways.Quote from: johansen on September 21, 2024, 04:57:10 amOne of the research interests was the ejector cycle for further boosting efficiency hence the complexity. Nowadays, I would say the added complexity is probably not worth it and just add a little bit more solar instead.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 11:24:54 am
content: Mains water cooled A/C isn't that uncommon if retrofitted to apartments where adding outdoor units is difficult or prohibited by the lease - my brother had one at his London flat. It took mains water, heated it up, and dumped that water down the sewage system, effectively using the sewers as a big heat sink.Yes, it's about as wasteful as it sounds, using probably around 40L per hour of operation.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 12:16:11 pm
content: The irony is that in some cases, the water use might be offset by the greater efficiency resulting in less water used for electricity generation. That obviously depends on a lot of things, for example wind and solar use negligible amounts of water.

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 12:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: elliottveares on September 20, 2024, 08:40:48 pmTo me Morphy Richards is just another zombie brand, it was taken over by Glen Dimplex in the 80s, the brand was sold to a Chinese company (Xinbao) in 2022, the same company that had been making the products for Glen Dimplex and sticking the Morphy Richards name on. Expect really poor quality (like most things these days), such as steel crimp terminals.Never had this problem in the EU made stuff.David

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 01:15:10 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 21, 2024, 03:05:50 amKickstarter has drifted away from its intentions many years ago. Several times I have seen a firm make a product and as soon as they have shipped the next version is on KS and the old one doesn't get support or any fixes.I suspect the CEO has suggested using Kickstarter to promote and sell a new product, much like how mine wants me to be on TikTok to make contact with customers.

author: elliottveares
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 04:41:43 pm
content: It's interesting as when I look at the comments about it on YouTube, Instagram, etc... most people are saying it will be useless, is a scam, will make the room warmer, are bringing up the mention of the laws of physics, etc...My fear is it will be advertised, or at least people will misunderstand it to be a whole room cooling solution rather than spot cooling.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 21, 2024, 04:53:24 amThose portable ACs are just utter crap. Litterally anything else will work better. The principal problem with portable ACs is that they suck the air from the room and dump it outside and thus pull hot air from the outside back into the room resulting in no cooling at all.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 02:30:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 22, 2024, 10:37:49 pmSome of the latest energy efficiency standards now give a penalty for single hose units. It would effectively force all of them to be dual hose units, at a minimal extra cost.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:36:59 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 22, 2024, 10:37:49 pmThey're less efficient than a mini-split, sure, but "utter crap" they are not. Both of ours keep our offices cool in the summer. Yes, we want whole-home AC, but we're not sure if we're going to be in this house long term, so it doesn't make sense to make the investment in that yet. We only use the portable AC units for about a week a year on the hottest months so the energy consumption is negligible.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 23, 2024, 08:36:59 amtwo hose or singles?you can work the math out but the 5K btu 140$ window units are about twice as efficient as single hose ac's unless... you're not paying for the rest of the building to be cooled. so say its 85F outside and you're cooling just one office cubicle at 15 cents an hour. 140$ divided by 7.5 cents an hour is a long time.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:26:14 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 23, 2024, 05:02:49 pmUnfortunately, window AC is all but unheard of for UK homes as we don't have the lift-up windows that would be required to fit one of those. We use single hose units - two hose units are a bit more efficient but I don't see many of those for sale.The daytime electricity price here is about 22p (~$0.29) and the units use less than 1.2kW running combined (~27p/hr). So if a proper AC install would cost ~£4,000 to get both rooms done and would then use around half the energy, it'd take over 20k hours to break even by my maths... Given they probably get a total of 300 hours of use a year, it wouldn't make sense from a financial point of view. It'd only make sense to get better cooling and/or cosmetically it looks a lot nicer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 23, 2024, 02:30:03 amDual hose makes a lot more sense. But split unit is better. Both more efficient and quiet. I'm on my second split unit as my wife demanded to have airco on the floor with the bedrooms as well so I had to upgrade the old (single) unit which cooled my office only. DIY install is pretty doable but requires purchasing some specific tools (like a vacuum pump) & consumables (like leak detection fluid and sealant for couplings) which can be sold at purchase price.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 23, 2024, 05:26:14 pmYou don't need lift up windows to install an AC, but it does make it easier. If its big enough you can just install a sheet of plywood or plexiglass and a u-shape AC:https://www.almarappliance.com/products/Midea/mda/maw08v1qwt.htmlthese are only $200-300.DIY split mini kits that are quick connect also exist, no vacuum pump needed, but they are ~$1800:https://www.homedepot.ca/product/mrcool-diy-smart-mini-split-12-000-btu-22-5-seer-ductless-air-conditioner-with-heat-pump-115v-/1001815621

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 09:15:14 pm
content: DIY mini-splits (except the ones that use propane) are unfortunately not legal in the UK and can create issues if a house is sold afterwards as there is usually a requirement to prove they've been properly installed. All because of refrigerant regulations... or a very loud F-Gas lobby who don't want their lucrative business going away. (They've been loud about the propane ones, calling them dangerous, but they really aren't.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 09:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 23, 2024, 08:44:49 pmThese are also a good option. Super easy to install and you can move them too. I used to have a really quiet one (which I actually sold for 25 euro less than I paid for it 10 years earlier) but the quick connect units I could find a couple of years ago, seemed to be limited to loud & low quality units.PS: the links you posted are geo-blocked.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 09:59:01 pm
content: You dont need a vacuum pump if you flush the air out with something like propane, butane, r152a, r410, etc

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 10:25:19 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 23, 2024, 09:59:01 pmA vacuum pump is like US $100 on Aliexpress + oil. And you can sell it on for about the same price to somebody else doing an airco install. Flushing the tubes with another gas still could leave some air and moisture. IF you can get the proper gas in the first place. A lot of split units are pre-filled so the only thing you need to do is draw the air out, let it sit for a while and if the vacuum remains, open the valves on the outside unit and off you go checking for leaks.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 10:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 23, 2024, 10:25:19 pmGoogle quik-e-vac

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 08:16:17 am
content: I would like to see a modest-power, well engineered modern-day window unit with widest suitable window coverage.Window units are mostly for US market and require certain type of window. For example here narrow and tall ventilation windows are usual and I have actually managed to modify a cheap-ass portable (single-duct) to fit into such window but it needs to be a very narrow model, most won't fit. (And the modification to make it act like window unit itself is ugly, but this was more like a "proof of concept". From cooling perspective it did workreallywell, the power one gets from a 8000BTU/hr cheap-ass <200EUR portable unit is surprising when you remove the limitations of the ducted design and introduce two separate loops of air (outdoor and indoor))But most air conditioners are unnecessarily powerful anyway with cooling power in 3kW range. I would like to see say 1.5kW cooling power in nice small form factor (engineered for small size and low acoustic noise). It should be possible to make it fit in wide variety of window shapes and sizes, including those that pivot open from the middle only forming a small gap. This could be done if a large enough company with resources to design and manufacture this made it their design goal, but AFAIK no one has done it.Dual-duct has its own problems: the ducts can't be arbitrarily small because the required air flow to maintain low condenser temperature. Even single-duct design struggle with this and do all sort of tricks like spray the condenser using a small water pump with the condensed water to increase cooling of condenser given same air flow. Now with two ducts you double the trouble of already awkward one duct, and while you do that you doubled the pressure loss, so ideally you would need to make the two ductseven largerto compensate. Many dual-duct designs cheats by taking some extra air from the indoors so they really are a hybrid between single-duct and imaginary ideal dual-duct machines. And don't forget the floor area spent by not only the machine but the ducts.It is infinitely better to have a decently engineered window unit with mere 1-1.5kW cooling power than say some top-end 4kW portable duct air conditioner which barely cools the warm air it sucked in. Small power helps with size and noise, and small size helps overcome compatibility issues with many types of windows.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 09:36:19 am
content: IMHO a connectable split unit with flexible hoses is a much better idea. Just run the hoses through a small window opening and be done. You'll need fresh air anyway and you keep the daylight coming in.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 10:35:20 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 24, 2024, 09:36:19 amSplit is of course always better than a window unit, but the main issue is that the connection of a pre-vacumized split is single-use. Not very useful in apartments if you want the freedom to move out, or for example here you don't want to leave the window open for the winter, not even a bit. So these kind of splits are best for permanent installations, in which case you can just get a normal split air conditioner anyway.Also while vacuum pumps are not expensive and there are even simpler options like the quik-e-vac mentioned, they are illegal in many countries with trade union mafia making the laws (e.g., here), plus even if they were legal it's still a little bit too complicated for really median Joe.In other words I find the difference between the user-installable mini-splits vs. usual "real" split air conditioner units too small, they kinda cater for the nearly same market, both are at least semi-permanent solutions and not completely trivial to install.I'm thinking about a really small, size-optimized machine, either a singular box (window unit type) or a permanently connected (from factory) flexible pipe split, where the outdoor unit is small enough to fit from the window opening, with enough pipe flex to accept different wall thicknesses. If that requires the compressor to be located within the indoor unit, then so; sound insulation materials are available.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 11:12:25 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on September 24, 2024, 10:35:20 amYou missed the word 'connectable'There are connectors for use in airconditioning units. These kind of work like connectors for hydraulic lines on heavy machinery to avoid spilling any of the hydraulic liquid.This is an image from my old airco unit which had such a system:The image shows one end with a dust cap on it. My old unit had corrugated copper pipes to make them easier to bend but flexible hoses would make more sense for a temporary unit. There are other connectors as well as the connector in the image is quite large (like 8 cm or so). With seperate connectors on each hose, you could drill a small hole (say 40mm) to feed the hoses to the outside if opening a window is too much trouble.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 11:14:54 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 24, 2024, 11:12:25 amYeah, of course. Thanks for pointing it out. While naysayers say these start to leak, I don't know if it's a real issue or not. I'm anyway surprised why these are so freaking expensive.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 11:29:34 am
content: I can definitely see a market for a small unit you propose. With hoses between 5 to 10 meters, you have a lot flexibility. Put the indoor unit on the window's ledge or next to the TV and run the outdoor unit on a balkony or in the garden. With the connectors close to the outdoor unit, any leaks will be outside anyway. I don't think my connectable unit leaked. Cooling was always excellent but I have to say I run the airco only a few days a year. After 10 years the connector still looked pristine on the inside. But that is just one data point.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 04:03:00 pm
content: They make chillers..If you can connect some garden hoses to a radiator you can make your own split system

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 05:05:11 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 24, 2024, 04:03:00 pmThat's basically a monoblock air-to-water heatpump. Water as a transfer medium opens up some possibilities. Especially if materials free from corrosion (similar to domestic water supplies) are used. In this case the compressor, condenser and evaporator (in form of plate heat exchanger) would be in the outdoor unit, and indoor unit would be just a fan coil unit with water running in it. Kind of DIY friendly.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 05:29:47 pm
content: Monoblock systems normally use glycol or similar because unless you're lucky enough to live somewhere that doesn't get below freezing in winter, water outdoors in a condenser isn't a great idea. But the principle is sound. These can be installed (in the UK at least) by non-professionals since the refrigeration system is fully self-contained. It's an option I've considered - but they aren't cheap. The cheapest unit suitable for my property would be £6,000, and there would additionally be the need to add a hot water tank since these systems cannot usually produce hot water on demand (takes too long to get heat pump up to temperature).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 06:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 24, 2024, 05:29:47 pmEven without freezing temperatures outside, using glycol is a good idea otherwise you can't get the temperature difference high enough for effective cooling. IMHO using water as a transport medium is mediocre at best.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 08:52:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 24, 2024, 06:35:24 pmuh, what?you lower the fan speed until the chiller pulls the water out of the air. now you have dehumidification.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 08:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 24, 2024, 08:52:22 pmTry and calculate the amount of energy transferred between inside and outside, the surface area size you'd need, water volume that needs to be moved and system efficiency. Hint: there is a good reason airco and refridgeration systems use liquid / gas phase changes to transport heat instead of using a liquid only. It is not because these systems are more fun to build.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 10:17:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 24, 2024, 08:59:14 pmthis isn't a reason an individual can't build a very efficient, 2 ton system, with a 5 gallon per minute pump, pushing water through 3/4" pipes5 gallons per minutes is 1305 watts per degree Celsius temperature change in the water. for a 2 ton system that's 5 Celsius.Modern heat pumps are still operating at 40-45F suction temperatures in order to pull the water out of the air with 100 square feet per ton of cooling capacity, and 300-400CFM per ton of air flow. with larger, cheaper, car radiators compared to hvac coils, you could get by with warmer water to keep your house at 68.with the air-water-refrigerant system of course you have a 5F temperature difference across the water-refrigerant heat exchanger and that brings down your efficiency a little. and sometimes that's worth it when the air-refrigerant heat exchangers has tremendous surface are, costs a lot, corrodes and has millions of leak points.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 01:12:43 am
content: This is quite funny.As OP started, this is just an offer engineered swamp cooler that consumes more energy than a swamp cooler.The thing with refrigerators is, for every few kW if great you move from one side to another, you add a kW of energy to the system that you then need to get rid of.So if it is just a tank of water, all your are doing is warning up that track over time adding more heat to the room than when you started.All this thing will do is offer a little bit of cool air for an hour before making the room warmer and boggy by evaporating water on the condenser side of the system..Quote from: johansen on September 23, 2024, 09:59:01 pmThis will not flush out the contaminants inside the line set doing this and you would be releasing refrigerant to atmosphere using the latter two of which both contribute to global warming.You would also not be testing the connections for leaks by doing this.This is why Europe has a lot of rules around who can work with refrigerant gases so it lowers the chances of clowns doing this.Source, I am F-Gas qualified.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 05:44:28 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 24, 2024, 06:35:24 pmNo problem at all. Normal air conditioners which do not use water run their evaporator pipes at around 5-6-7-maybe 8 degrees C anyway, as the last thing they want to do is to develop any frosting on the evaporator (it causes a runaway: as the frost blocks the evaporator, it will start running even cooler, developing even more frost. Every AC unit has protection against this, evaporator temperature limitation). So basically their operation isstilllimited by freezing of pure water, even when they don't use water as medium.Water is so effective at sucking heat out of plate heat exchanger that you can easily cool the water down to, say, +5degC without risk of freezing, and, again, because water is so effective in heat transfer, this easily gives you the similar 6-7degC pipe temperature for the coil unit. Which is fine for room cooling purposes.This is not idle talk; water distribution + fan coil units have been used for cooling in larger buildings for over 100 years and it does work fine without glycol.And this summer I did the same thing, cooling with my air-to-water heatpump and it works fine. But I did have to install a hack because the heatpump, as designed primarily for heating, with cooling mode as an "extra", has a very conservative safety limit for minimum cooling temperature at around +12degC. Made that +9 and it has still ample safety margin against freezing the plate exchanger and gives decent cooling power. I don't have glycol in the system. (See attached drawing.)Glycol actually worsens the thermal capacity and thus thermal transfer capability of water. You need it if you are going to make ice cubes with the system instead of cool/dehumidify the room air. Or, of course, if you are going to leave the system in-place (partially outdoors) for the whole winter without draining it, then sure you will need glycol.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 07:31:12 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on September 25, 2024, 05:44:28 amFine, but what happens when you go away on holiday and the heat pump goes into a low power state? We usually set the home thermostat to 10C when away, it's enough to stop internal pipes freezing, but external ones definitely would freeze if it got cold enough outside.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 09:05:56 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 25, 2024, 07:31:12 amSee the context of discussion.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 12:09:28 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 25, 2024, 07:31:12 amI'll reply to this even if it was out-of-context as quoted, because it's a real question anyway. Generally for monoblock heatpumps with water as medium you need one of the following:1) Good insulation on pipes + heat exchanger plus thermostat-controlled heating cable to protect the exchanger + pipes, e.g. my ES/Amitime came with this thermostat + about a meter of extra heating cable for the pipes, even though ES is a low cost brand.or2) Large enough reservoir of water which naturally circulates by convection, and for longer term, heated by something else.Turns out, #2 works for me really well. Every winter during the coldest week(s) I have just completely cut power to my monoblock heatpump, including those protective heaters. With -30degC outdoors, no problem whatsoever. The 1150l tank is of course kept warm by burning oil/wood during that time. I have periodically booted up the heatpump just to check what the heat exchanger sensors say. They are close to the tank temperature from natural convection even without circulation pump operating.If you plan on disabling all sources of heating completely, then 2 is of course not a valid option for longer term. Then again if you do that, the house will start to cool down from the inside too so you should be draining all water pipes anyway or they will burst. In such cases #1 is a valid approach, but it will consume a little bit of power all the time. And a long duration power outage will ruin it, so in that sense it's riskier than #2. Best is of course combining #1 and #2.And then there is3) Add glycol to the loopBut the downside is this: if you have large total volume (any buffer tanks, larger storage tanks, even just combined radiator volume), the cost of glycol becomes prohibitive. Below 15% is homeopathy anywhere, and for cold climates 30-40% is needed. So you need to add another loop, and use another heat exchanger between the first glycol loop and the second "house loop". And nowthisexchanger can still freeze in unlucky case! And you have added a lot of complexity and some extra loss of temperature and therefore COP in this extra exchanger. Surprisingly popular solution here but I don't like it.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 08:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on September 25, 2024, 01:12:43 amYes I have my 608 license as well and congratulations to you for replying, if you are still breathing, you are contributing to global warming.

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 01:05:43 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 21, 2024, 03:02:32 amBesides the diagram you attached, do you have more documentation about that project?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 08:24:20 am
content: Quote from: johansen on September 25, 2024, 08:43:43 pmThe environmental impact of refrigerants is quite significant, though. The problem isn't only laymen illegally (or legally in some countries) doing installs and accidentally releasing refrigerants, it is also qualified professionals with attitude problems intentionally breaking the law and doing serious environmental damage. In a sanely operating system, a professional doing this would be sanctionedmore heavilybecause they should understand the risks, yet at least here the F gas permits are more like a trade union mafia thing, "license tokillpollute". No one's interested in people like you with licenses releasing the gases.E.g. according to thishttps://www.quora.com/How-many-tonnes-of-CO2-does-the-average-human-breath-out-in-an-average-lifetimeCO2 breath out by a single human being would be roughly 15000kg over the whole lifetime, note though this recirculates in the system because people eat stuff which absorbed the CO2 from the atmosphere to begin with, all of that CO2 is literally from the food so none of it counts.And then again, let's say you use just 100 grams (significantly less than a typical fill of an air conditioner) of the mentioned R410 for flushing. With GWP of 2000 that is equivalent to 200kg of CO2. This is equivalent of driving 2000km on a typical car; or running a 5W LED bulb for 50 years given CO2 footprint of average electricity in Finland; or the amount you breath out in a year. So it might mean nothing as a single event (e.g. troubleshooting a rare issue) but it's really significant if it happens all the time and repeatedly on every install.While R32 is an improvement, R290 is a real gamechanger. Especially interesting because if the trade union mafia wants to keep their position, they can't use the same "think about the environment" excuse anymore because propane obviously does not fall under the F gas directive. Safety arguments are similarly pretty unfounded given that people have their homes full of small propane tanks with poor quality plastic valves that actuate on a light touch (also known as spray bottles), not to talk about legally being able to buy, store and use tens of kilograms of this flammable stuff, to actually make a flame.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 05:47:44 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on September 26, 2024, 08:24:20 amsupermarkets loose 25% of their refrigerant each year. this is normal.the millions of pounds of r152a sold as canned air duster.. negligible in comparisonIf 8 ounces of it, saves someone from being charged 2000$ to install their heat pump.. its a net benefit.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 06:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 24, 2024, 08:59:14 pmYou need the refrigerant loop any way, saves on an extra pump and heat exchangers. With multisplit and long distances, hydronic has no problem competing in airconditioning.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 06:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on September 26, 2024, 05:47:44 pmDoing bad things in the past doesn't make keep doing bad things a good idea right now or in the future.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2024, 07:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: Rimu on November 23, 2024, 12:21:50 pmthis is an electronics forum. not an economic/marketing forum.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2024, 07:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rimu on November 23, 2024, 12:21:50 pmAFAIK: For a succesfull campaign, you'll need to hire a consulting & advertising agency specialised in getting attention to Kickstarter projects. Putting a project up and sit behind your desk waiting for pledges is not going to work.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2024, 11:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: Rimu on November 23, 2024, 12:21:50 pmJust waiting for the spam link...