T12 clones/tips not that great....  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 09:45:38 am
content: Well, the interest in "T12 technology" on the forum got my to buy some T12 stations. My initial impressions were mostly favorable. But in the end, there's no free lunch. One important aspect I couldn't evaluate on first impression was longevity. And after a only a couple of months of use, I can already see that clone tips are not up to Hakko standards. I have not tried genuine Hakko T12 tips, yet, but they seem to run the better part of $30.00 a pop from places like Tequipment.The issues I have had with the clones1. heater starting to die on my must used tip, after only 2 months. I have to admit, I have turned the station on/off more than usual, trying to take advantage of the super fast heat up time of my Suhan station, in particular. Which with the 24.5V PSU might put some extra strain on the heater. But this doesn't come close the cumulative abuse my T18 tips have taken over many years.2. tips not taking solder as well as genuine Hakko T18 tips (which cost 8.00 each). My T18 tips hardly ever ask for a cleaning.. seems like I only clean them to remove burnt flux to prevent it from falling off onto the board. The cheap T12 tips seem to lose some of their love of solder after some weeks of use, even though I'm using the same temps and flux.3. Tip finish/plating. Many of my clone tips have poor finish, surface irregularities, and/or cracks in the chrome plating I have never seen on a Hakko T18 tip.4. Tip contact disintegration: well, I have to admit, I modified my handpiece, wrapping some tape around it to get the tip to fit more snugly so it couldn't spin. One of my tips got caught on removal, and the contacts on it ripped apart. That's on me, but on a T18 tip there's no durability issue to even compare to this.Most of my clone tips still work great, but in terms of amount of soldering time, they are embryonic. The 2 I use the most have degraded noticeably in performance (one the heater;other the wettability). The T18 counterparts are still trucking after over 4 years of the same use with no degradation. Perhaps they even got better with age?After using T12 for several weeks, almost solely, I finally got frustrated with the subpar wetting of the T12 BCF3. So when it came time to swap to BCF1, instead of swapping tips, I changed back to the 888 with the CF1. Even though I was doing delicate point-to-point rework with jumpers, I didn't even notice the longer tip to grip, at all. The main thing that reminded me I was using a different iron was when putting the iron in/out of the stand, where the familiar clunk and more positive insertion/withdrawal (without looking) made it feel like I was soldering with an extension of my own consciousness, or perhaps like I had just reattached a missing limb after weeks of fooling with T12 wannabe's.I was also reminded of one quirk/feature of the 936 handpiece. When using tiny bevel tips it is sometimes harder to figure out what the exact angle is. With my 888, once the tip is locked down, I can quickly acclimate to the direction the tip is pointing by relation to where the strain relief has taken a set. With the 951 style, the strain relief is a shorter and it spins freely in the handle, and this reference is lost.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2017, 11:32:13 pm
content: i have been using one heavily for over 6 months, no problems.one thing did stand out, you said:Quoteflux?the only flux you need is in the solder - flux is a corrosive.it will eat tips on any iron if you dont keep the tip clean.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 04:29:20 am
content: RA flux. I use it the same way as with my T18 hakko. If u choose to not use flux, that is your choice. I use flux almost evertime i solder.Re wetting, main issue is with bcf3, when adding small amounts of solder. It is somewhat fiddly sometimes, getting the tiny bead to spread out to all the way to the edge, anymore. This is challenging for any tip, to be fair. It started out a champ but has fallen off. My Hakko T18 tip is just a champ. For 4 years.As for the heater issue, i had been using my suhan station for the last month or so. And tur ing it on/off a lot. It runs at 24.5V. Maybe when u combine that with extreme tolerance of a given tip, u get a problem. One seller of clone tips actually states the tips can be used to 27V, but anything over 24 is considered overdrive, known to shorten tbe life.... and if they say this, maybe it is being generous. Maybe Bakon running at 19.5V is better for longevity.At least when my 888 works 8 years on the original heater, i am pretty confident it wont crap out on me any given day. To hell with the "improvement" of buying 20 separate heaters when u buy 20 different tips.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 04:41:24 am
content: Re: flux, a wise man once said "you can't use too much flux!!!" While I disagree with this in theory, I find it's pretty close to accurate in practice, at least with rosin fluxes.The only nod I give to "too much" is if I'm NOT going to clean off the residue within the next few hours (a lot of times I don't clean, at all), I'll pay a bit of attention to areas that are flooded with a lot of flux... keeping the heat/iron on until the solvent bubbles/boiling goes down to minimal.My T18 tips do not care about the corrosiveness of MG 835. I only clean them off when the crusty flux starts to obscure my view or starts to fall off into the joints.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 08:30:52 am
content: the words "crusty" & "flux" should not be in the same sentence!

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 09:01:43 am
content: It's a very useful detail of a soldering iron/tip - how long you can solder with it sans a cleaning. In a batch SMD operation, once you get your angle down and all your parts lined up and your eyes in the microscope, it is very helpful to be able to be able to sustain the flow without stopping.Rosin chars at soldering temp. It's just the way it is. The parts of the tip you aren't using/loading will crust over with charred rosin. But the part of the iron face you ARE using is going to be frequently tinned with new solder and good flux, which basically cleans off that area. As long as you keep the iron busy, soldering away, the part of the tip you are using is going to stay clean.If/when bits of charred flux start falling off from the surrounding areas, that's my notice to stop and clean it.THIS is essentially the only reason I aim to keep the temp of my iron as low as possible for a given task. I'll take an extra fraction of a second to flow a joint over more frequent cleanings. The lower the temp, the longer it takes for the tip to get too dirty with charred flux. It's a tradeoff. It I were going to clean the tip constantly, anyway, (or if rosin didn't dry out and char, eventually) it wouldn't matter. I would turn it up to 375C, minimum, and I'd control the component temperature/heat-exposure thru dwell time. On and off, faster.Part of the reason I favor TFO tips, in general, is because the "crusty flux" tends to build up on the chrome plated area away from the working parts of the tip, where it can build up longer without problem. On a tip with way more wettable realestate than you happen to be using at the time, the char is more likely to form over parts of the wettable tip. And be more likely to be "disturbed" and broken up when the tip gets re-tinned. I.e., it is more likely to start mixing up with the solder and getting into the joints sooner, requiring more frequent cleaning. Well, more like ON-to the joints, because flux and solder don't mix. Even if this happens, it's easy to wipe away the charred flux from the joint, scooping it off with the iron - or swiping with an alcohol brush, if you're gonna clean the board, anyway.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 09:32:16 am
content: the flux in my solder is synthetic, no rosin at all.it's been a long time since i used "pine fragrance" solder.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 10:46:55 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 28, 2017, 09:45:38 amHow have you confirmed that the temps are the same?Are you using the same temperaturesetting, or have you verified that it's the same actual temperature at the tip?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 07:48:37 pm
content: Bakon i run a tad hotter on average, cuz of the presets. Suhan i adjust when needed a bit more often cuz it has a dial like my 888 analog. I have used 10.00 thermocouple soldering jron digit temp gauge, so i know what the true temps are. Suhan def runs hotter than the indicator. But I dont run the t12 tips hotter than 340ish for most part. Maybe 350ish if i fudge the dial a bit. There is no discoloration on the sides of the tip. Many of my t18 tips eventually earn this grey/blue color the day i let them bake for a few hours at high temp.The biggest rub. Other than shorter warm up time (of suhan, anyway), i didnt find any significant improvement. When soldering to ground plane or other things, i find i have to adjust the temp just as often as with 888. Perhaps 951 and genuine tips make a difference. But i dont see a significant practical improvement in t12 clone over 50 year old technology. The handpiece and tip "quick change" system, may be considered an improvement. But it doesn't do anything for me. The longer tips are a bit of a drawback, if anything. There's nothing that compels me to want to use T12 over 888, other than the novelty, which has worn off. I had started to like the BC2 T12 tip, probably because I don't happen to have the T18 counterpart, yet... but this is the one that the contact ripped off the other day.OTOH, the spatula tip is surely amazing/unique. I wonder if the clones have enough output to run these. Not that I plan on buying a 50.00 spatula tip until I actually need one.I'm assuredly biased towards the 888 because I have used it for 8 years. The clone tips are ok. But they are definitely not QC'd as well as Hakko stuff. I have bought 3 of the BCF3, for instance, and two had major visual defects. One with major cracking flaking off the chrome (luckily in an area where it shouldn't matter much). And one with a large chip of iron knocked out of the edge.

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 08:35:02 pm
content: If you ask me, it's probably something you're doing wrong.Maybe you're using too high of a temperature? Generally speaking, you shouldn't be using more than 370C for any kind of soldering/desoldering work. Also, not sure if you do this or not (as you haven't mentioned it) but it's generally a good (and very recommended) practice to plate the tip with fresh solder and have it quickly cleaned before powering it off (as it helps with the tip's longevity!) Other than that, I suggest avoiding the sponge cleaning method, using brass wool is much healthier for the tip and causes less oxidation! (but if you're really used to the sponge method, you should at very least avoid tap water and only use distilled water, and preferably start off with a fresh, unused sponge to be on the safe side)Also, if you're taking long breaks in-between soldering, don't just leave the station on, as it can have a negative impact on the tip's longevity!Quote from: stj on September 28, 2017, 11:32:13 pmI disagree, solder fluxes are generally not overly corrosive, and the tip would be fine as long as regularly cleaned.And FYI, adding standalone flux actually helps a lot with both soldering & desoldering! Don't knock it til you try it as they say.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 08:45:56 pm
content: ^ I run about 345 hottest, for most things. Typically I have my 888 set for 315 and 335 as the main two choices. And 380 for temporary use, just for big heatsinks. I ran the bakon at 340 be default. (350 on the dial... 340 per temp gauge). I used the Suhan, mostly like I used my analog 888. I use brass wool. I've never used wet sponge, before.Everything else you suggest I shouldn't do, I have done for 8 years with my 888. I leave it on for many hours a day, walking away from it for long periods when I want to. I have yet to dispose of a worn out tip. To be clear the T12 tip I was talking about still wets all the places where it is supposed to, so maybe I'm overexaggerating. I think I finally got tired of seeing the "improvement" in technology. Breaking one of my useful T12 tips removing it from the iron was also frustrating. Overall, T12 clones stations were simply a distraction I didn't need.

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 08:55:36 pm
content: QuoteYeah, sorry bout that, missed it as you've posted shortly before I did.QuoteSeriously?Dude, you can't misuse a soldering station like that and be surprised the tips get quickly worn out.Not to mention the safety aspects of it. Do you have any idea how hot the transformer/smps can get if left on for many hours?You're lucky it hasn't caused a short circuit and/or fire!

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 10:43:37 pm
content: QuoteYeah, seriously! As long as I leave the station under 350C, no harm to the tip. It's pretty hard to ruin a Hakko tip at this temp. I have left teh station on all night a few times. I mean, I don't wipe the tip dry then leave it on for hours. The only obvious point of wear on my T18 tips is the chrome plating on, say, CF tips eventually wears on the edge that gets dragged across component pins.I think your concern over the power supply/transformer is unfounded. If you observe the duty cycle of the heater while the iron is in the stand, it is drawing very little power. In the 888, the main source of probably 80% of the heat in the station is the series power resistor to the -12V rail, not the transformer. This resistor is located at the top of the station and there is proper venting to allow for air circulation. There are lots of things in your home which run on switchers and transformers which are on 24/7. If anything, the transformer in the 888 is overspecced more than any transformer I have ever tested.I've actually done some horrible things to one of my 888's when reverse engineering and hacking it. I'm shocked I didn't (to my knowledge) do any permanent damage. It is very robust in design. Among other things, I arced 26VAC to one of the DC rails. I shorted the zero crossing transistor. And everything still works, lol. There's nothing in it designed to eventually wear out, AFAIC. No failure-by-design or skimping on specs or overly complicated solutions in there. Just rugged and simple circuitry.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 10:50:01 pm
content: Quote from: RayRay on September 29, 2017, 08:55:36 pmA soldering iron used for production is going to be on 8hrs per day, 5 days a week.Although they will usually have a sleep mode which OP does not have. It looks like the 888D has it.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 11:10:54 pm
content: ^This is why fast warm up time doesn't really excite me. 888 takes 17 seconds to melt solder, approximately. Maybe 20 seconds to be fully ready to go. It takes me longer to setup my workspace for soldering, and I may turn the station on/off only once or twice in a day... leaving it on until I'm done soldering for the day. Albeit, maybe I do 1 or 2 tip changes, too. Tip changes which are decidedly slower than T12. But managing T18 tips is "neater," regarding keeping more or less all of them at hand and organized in a more compact space. Warm up speed is probably more important for a portable iron for on-site simple/quick repair/installation work... where you maybe want to turn the iron on, get it done, and turn it off before you lose track of where you put your iron, lol.888D has configurable presets, but there's no sensor in the handpiece or holder to automatically activate a sleep mode. With the 888D, sometimes I put it into standby temp of 200-250C, manually. But that is a recent habit. For the first 8 years, I never bothered other than to turn the temp back down if I was over about 350C. Or much above 12:30 on the analog version dial.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 01:35:41 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 28, 2017, 09:45:38 amHakko replaced the T12 series with the T15 series. Clones still use the T12 nomenclature though.And common profiles for the T15 series aren't expensive either. For example, TEquipment sells theT15-BCF3for $10.47.Quote from: KL27x on September 28, 2017, 09:45:38 amApplying some silicone adhesive between the strain relief and wire would solve this. Easier than fixing a poor or non-existent ground at any rate.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 04:47:03 am
content: QuoteCool. I thought T15 was a European thing. Had I known, I wouldn't have bothered with the Chinese imports. But on the bright side, I would have broken 2 genuine tips by now (through experimentation/misuse). When I dust these T12 stations off, again, I'll give a real hakko tip a try.