Siglent SDS2104X Plus (100MHz) vs Keysight DSOX1204G 70MHz vs Rigol MSO5074 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jimjam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 04:13:28 am
content: For the first time oscilloscope user, I'm currently choosing between these two. What are the pros and cons of these two models, and perhaps suggestion on other models to consider instead. Thanks.EDIT: I've just come across another possible contender, Rigol MSO5074. Currently offered by Emona in Australia with free MSO5000-BND

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 04:29:06 am
content: SDS2104X Plus has a tested -3dB BW of ~185 Mhz.200Mpts memory for each of the two 2GSa/s ADC's.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 04:35:20 am
content: Keep in mind SDS2104X Plus can be hacked to full options + 500Mhz BW

author: jimjam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 05:47:25 am
content: Quote from: stafil on June 06, 2020, 04:35:20 amI thought only the 350MHz one can be upgraded to 500MHz?

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 05:57:45 am
content: Quote from: jimjam on June 06, 2020, 05:47:25 amThe hack/keygen works for all of them.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 07:16:17 am
content: And then Dave had to put aside his KS as it didn't come with free decodes like SDS2104X Plus does.https://youtu.be/E81hlwciXJU?t=121

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 10:22:10 am
content: Siglent SDS2104X Plus (100MHz).And that without hacking it..Hacked, it can replace Keysight 3034T for many people that don't need special protocols, active probes and really fast re-trigger rate ...The list what Siglent SDS2104X Plus can do and Keysight DSOX1204G cannot is mile long..Make note I didn't say "what features it has" but what it can do...Siglent has huge screen. Huge. You can see more.You can get 100X longer samples without sample rate dropping to audio sampling rates..You can get more protocols decodes.Segmented mode supports up to 90000 segments with full timing. Same with always running history mode. Keysight has 50 in segmented mode. Yes, 50. No history.2000X+ has 2 math traces. DSOX1204G has one with simpler math.2000X+ has 2 Mpoint FFT. DSOX1204G has max 64kpoint.2000X+ has very nice bode plot. DSOX1204G has it too, but more limited. 2000X will soon receive new Siglent BodePlot II that is multichannel (more than one channel).2000X+'s generator goes to 50MHz. DSOX1204G gen goes to 20 Mhz.List goes on and on.There is only one thing that DSOX1204G does well is that it does great emulation of analog like rendering on the screen. Everything else it is really meh.DSOX1204G is a victim of Keysight own marketing strategy. They cannot allow that their cheapest entry level scopes start having features of 3000T series.It will hurt them. So DSOX1204G is deliberately AS LITTLE as they can get away with, and counting that Keysight name will sell nice but very ordinary, anemic and unremarkable scope.Siglent, on the other hand have no problem with trying to grab a market share in 2000 series scopes by being slightly better than A brands in all aspects, making scopes that are somewhere in between 2000 and 3000 established market classes . So 2000X+ has many things from modern 3000 class like 50 Ohm inputs, big touch screen, huge memory, segments, search, long FFT (class leading 2MPoints), 2 math channels, histicons and histograms, measurements on full and gated memory, advanced triggers, MSO, more decodes etc etc..Times have changed. In entry level scopes market, big brands are not best choice. In mid and high end , yes, entry level, no.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 11:08:11 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 06, 2020, 07:16:17 amLet's see if the trend continues.(instead of it just being the 'scope that was on his bench at the time due to him doing a review of it)

author: jimjam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 12:13:11 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 06, 2020, 10:22:10 amThank you very much for your detailed explanation. Much appreciated.Decision made!EDIT-added rigol to the mix

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 02:49:47 pm
content: Siglent has no issue taking things from their higher end models and pushing them down... it could be said the current 5k model was more of the basis for the plus than even the non plus 2k was

author: jimjam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 02:54:02 pm
content: I've just added Rigol MSO5074 to the list of options, still trying to learn more about it. I wish I could play with them in person

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 03:56:33 pm
content: What is your budget? You might want to consider adding the R&S RTB2004 to the list.And what do you want to use the oscilloscope for? Selecting the right oscilloscope is not just about price but also highly depends on your use case and personal preferences. What is great for one person absolutely sucks for another person. If you are unsure then at least make a short list with 3 oscilloscopes and simply try all of them.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 04:46:17 pm
content: Giving your budget is a good idea otherwise, at this rate, we will offer you a Keysight MXR @ 20k$

author: jimjam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 04:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 06, 2020, 03:56:33 pmBudget: no more than A$3kR&S RTB2004 seems to be almost double the price of the others I've listed here so just based on that, it's out of the question. I don't have any specific needs other than just learning to use a scope and using it as and when the need arise. The most basic model would probably suffice, but I do like having a bigger screen, easier to see and all. It's a good question though. It makes me re-evaluate whether I should spend A$2400 on a scope or just get a cheaper model.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 05:08:48 pm
content: Perhaps the Micsig TO1104 or STO1104C would be a good fit. The first is a touch-screen only model, the latter has knobs. These have a big 8" 4:3 800x600 screen, have solid firmware and can run on batteries as well. These models are useful as both a bench top and portable oscilloscope.I only found the TO1104 in an Australian webshop. Maybe they can order the STO series as well.https://emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/oscilloscopes/to-1104.htmlAnother option is to buy directly from MicSig through their Aliexpress factory store:https://micsig.nl.aliexpress.com/store/1293611

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 05:21:00 pm
content: Quote from: jimjam on June 06, 2020, 04:54:36 pm...Quote from: nctnico on June 06, 2020, 05:08:48 pmSeconded. No need to spend a fortune on something you don't even know you even need, it's like saying you're going to buy a Mercedes just to find out what driving a car is like and to do some shopping.The STO1104C has the best of most worlds (knobsanda big, multi-gestural touch screen thing) and won't break the bank. The 100Mhz version is a lot of 'scope for the money.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 05:33:17 pm
content: I'd also say a Micsig is probably right up your alley since you don't need anything specific. It will likely do everything you need, be useful for learning, and save you money.I really think the 3 options you have are good scopes but you don't need them and they're fairly expensive for what you want. Hacks don't really matter when the features of the hack do nothing for you.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 05:49:52 pm
content: Big screen is worth every penny... thats probly my favorite part of the sds2k+It's huge and i can overlay a ton of stuff on it and its not super tiny and over crowdedIf you got the spare cash to burn either a SDS2104X or a MSO5074 is a fine scope to both learn on and keep for yearsCant really go wrong with eitherAnother plus with either of them is they come with a function gen, another piece of kit you then dont have to buy. Also 16 digital ports, a MSO is worth every penny if you are getting into pics/arduinosIf you want a tablet then micsig.. probly the best tablet scope floating around

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 06:11:03 pm
content: If you just want a toy to play with then the Analog Discovery 2 should also be on your short list.It uses your PC screen for display so the screen can be as big as you want.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 06:16:39 pm
content: Quote from: jimjam on June 06, 2020, 12:13:11 pmDid you felt the thread was going down too short?If you want to spend $1000 buy the Rigol. If you want to spend $1500 buy the Siglent!BUT, and the best advice was from maginnovision: if you buy a Veyron, hack to a Chiron but all you need is to drive in downtown then it's wiser to buy a Smart without any extras. Unless you want to show off your big machine... In Covid times, keep the money.

author: stafil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 06:27:33 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 06, 2020, 06:16:39 pmOP: You will probably never outgrow the SDS2104X+. Buy it, hack it, and don't worry about scopes ever again.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 08:10:55 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on June 06, 2020, 06:27:33 pmThat's the same I was getting at, if money to spare one and done...If broke.. well.. probly not the best idea but i dont judge

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 08:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: stafil on June 06, 2020, 06:27:33 pmThat is a bit short-sighted. There are important differences between the oscilloscopes. The way they manage memory for example.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 08:37:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 06, 2020, 05:08:48 pmQuoteThis is whatBatronixsays to the micsig, they see it under the DS1000Z, this means under the low-entry level scope range.On the other side, actually I´m surprised from the quality of their current probeCP2100B.So if he needs a mobile scope...why not.But he wrote, he could spend several dollars more…And therefore:QuoteI agree to this, got both scopes in use (actual the siglent).

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 08:38:53 pm
content: Siglent, hacked or not has a lot more features (and also bugs) than KS, but it cannot do good waveform updates per second. And if you add measurements, it pauses with deterministic interval to do the calculations stopping screen refreshes

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 08:47:16 pm
content: That sounds more dramatic by reading as it is in practice.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 09:53:40 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 06, 2020, 08:37:11 pmI don't know what the person was on when he/she wrote that but it must have been the stuff that gives people a severe black-out. It is utter and complete nonsense. Feature wise the MicSig is on par with any 'desktop' oscilloscope in the same price range and certainly above the Rigol 1000Z. For starters the Rigol 1000Z's hardware platform is severely outdated.

author: jimjam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 04:34:22 am
content: OK I've ordered the Siglent SDS2104X+. Also "ordered" a logic probe made by TKhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/#msg3079002. Thanks everyone for all the input! I hope I won't be disappointed. Looking forward to my new toy!

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 07:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 06, 2020, 07:16:17 amNot relevant for people buying new scopes today. All new scopes in the 1000x-series comes with free serial decodes.https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32110.0.00&cc=GB&lc=engI know your a Siglent sales person, but you should not be dishonest about the competition.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 07:57:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 06, 2020, 05:08:48 pmGood idea and suggestion.I think the Micsig looks extremly nice and really pack a punch for being both stationary and also portable. Myself I look at this STO1104C Plus (battery included):https://www.banggood.com/sv/Micsig-STO1104C-Digital-Smart-Oscilloscope-100MHz-4CH-Handheld-Oscilloscope-Automotive-Scopemeter-Oscilloscope-p-1618226.html?DCC=GB&currency=EUR&ID=6285165&cur_warehouse=CZSeems like a much better deal than the other cheap Chinese brands (Rigol, Siglent, Atten, etc.).Personally I am of more and more for either buying a desktop only scope from a proper brand, with professional made and tested software and interface, like Keysight or R&S (and others), or flexibility of a portable+stationary scope like the Micsig one. You probably get lower quality (especially on software side) like the other Chine pure players, but on the other hand a great flexibility of possibility to go portable when you want or need.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 08:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: TK on June 06, 2020, 08:38:53 pmExactly. One reason to go for western designed scopes (almost all are produced in Chine/Asia) is less bugs, better user interface, and better software/hardware for handling wave form updates.For me it's Keysight, R&S for quality, or Micsig. If I go pure Chinese, I might as well get the great portability and flexibility. Rigol/Siglent; you get neither thing (as I see it).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 08:19:02 pm
content: Just to note: MicSig is pretty adamant at releasing well tested firmware. They are certainly not a hit & run company.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 08:52:30 pm
content: Quote from: martinot on July 10, 2020, 07:47:48 pmDid you watch the video to really witness what happened and listen to what Dave said ?I think not !

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 09:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 10, 2020, 08:52:30 pmIt is exactly what martinot said, Dave does not have the license for serial decoding so he switched to the siglent, but in one of his videos he mentioned that his first choice is always KS. Now all 1000X series includes serial decoding, even the low cost EDUX series.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 10:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 08:19:02 pmThanks. I am warming up more and more to the Micsig scopes. Will install some NMEA2K hardware on my boat this summer, and perfect to have a good portable scope with CAN-bus decoding. I am seriously thinking about the STO1104C. Do you know what the difference it is between this C-model and the same ending in E?

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 10:41:44 pm
content: Quote from: TK on July 10, 2020, 09:38:16 pmExactly.It is a little dishonest (IMO) by Siglent sales people to imply that it is not included, when it clearly is today.In my personal opinion it is bad enough by sales people to constantly talk trash about the competition (makes them look insecure about their own products), but even worse when its not true what they say (either by incompetence, or by purpose).

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:45:59 pm
content: Fact one, thread title was siglent sds2k+ vs keysight dso1204 70 mhz vs rigol mso 5k.Fact two, the siglent offers all the basic decoder functions for free (rigol don´t.).Fact three, the keysight can´t compete to the rigol or siglent what technical specs concerns.And you talking about.....what excactly ? About sales people ?!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 10, 2020, 11:45:59 pmI don't agree with this because you are not taking the use cases into account. There is more to an oscilloscope than just the specs!

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 04:14:35 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2020, 11:57:32 pmAnd specs lie, a lot. They are written by marketing people. There is no way to get 200,000wfm/s on a Siglent, you cannot use 200Mpts of sample memory at all timebase settings... serial decoding is slow... last setting power on function does not work (you need to set serial decoding and serial trigger settings every time you turn off and back on... full of BS

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 04:25:34 am
content: Quote from: TK on July 11, 2020, 04:14:35 amDesign engineers actually.QuoteCorrect, not one model claims 200k WFPS.QuoteCorrect, to think you can indicates you didn't RTFM correctly or don't understand Siglent/LeCroy and Pico memory management strategies.QuoteCorrect, reported as a trigger settings bug.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 04:37:19 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 11, 2020, 04:25:34 amDesign engineers... you must be kidding, right?Sorry, not 200,000wfm/s... I confused with a real scope spec... only 120,000wfm/s per spec on the Siglent, actual real world 2,000wfm/s with lots of dead time in between.And I want all 200Mpts used in a single capture, if the scope gives me the option to specify it in a menu, not segmented or history memory mode.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 05:11:40 am
content: Quote from: TK on July 11, 2020, 04:37:19 amYou can however not at the timebaseyoumight want.RTFM and get to learn how your scope works....much like a LeCroy or Pico. Study the info right there on the display and use the scope to best effect accordingly. This is why this info is displayed, to let the user make informed decisions that will be suit their needs.It's a different strategy to many other scopes and no less powerful.Capture slow and zoom in or use Zoom and work within the zoomed window.QuoteAre special modesrelated to allthe available memory but don't dictate how you would use your scope but the History buffer is always being replenished in the background.Word is Siglent are to look at adding fulluser selectedmem depth into captures in addition to the current capture strategy.It is not high priority as existing methods to capture at full memory depth is a long standing adequate capture solution.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 07:03:27 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 10, 2020, 11:45:59 pmYou miss a lot of facts in your reading of the posts in the thread. I try to take it slow and short:Fact #1: TheDSO1204(as you reference) comes with free serial decoding as standard. [Ref *1]Fact #2: Siglent sales people here implies (by incompetence, or by lying) that it does not. [Ref *2]Please let me know if you would like me to elaborate on any of these facts (or if it still something that is unclear for you - will be happy to assist).References:Ref 1:https://www.keysight.com/gb/en/assets/7018-06411/data-sheets/5992-3484.pdf"Serial protocol analysis Standard : I²C, SPI, UART/RS-232, CAN, LIN"Ref 2: tautech in message:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2104x-plus-(100mhz)-vs-keysight-dsox1204g-70mhz/msg3089390/#msg3089390

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 09:15:21 am
content: Quote from: martinot on July 10, 2020, 10:41:44 pmDishonest NO, I repeat NO but ignorant of the fact KS are now offering Decode as standard.Now you might like to ponder on why they now do.....maybe to compete with recent competition.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 05:26:12 pm
content: Been following the various scope types, as well as the power supplies and AWGs on other threads. Good information and nice to see actual users comments.Is the Siglent SDS2102X Plus (2 channel) upgradable like the 2104X Plus?Best

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 05:28:15 pm
content: Hi,I guess yes (except the 500Mhz bandwith I think).But what in hell you want with 2-ch only ?!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 08:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 21, 2020, 05:26:12 pmIf you're just needing BW and not all the fruits of the Plus models maybe the SDS2202X-E might be of interest.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 09:21:05 pm
content: I like the 10 bit "Hi Rez" feature, also the larger screens of this series. Of course 4 channels is better than 2, but costs more!! I'm also interested in an the AWG and PS, although these are not as important as the scope. I have a couple repaired Tektronix 2465s, and an older LeCroy "digital" scope, but wanted something I could do some serious signal analysis with including FFTs. The idea of being able to "capture" a complex waveform and then pass in on to the AWG for reproduction is interesting, as well as the Bode plots.There are so many options, mostly all good from various sources, it's hard to make a choice. In my days when employed it was simply Tek scopes, Fluke or HP meters and everything else HP. Now on a home brew budget, this isn't reasonable unless you get older "surplus" equipment and repair like we've done. Still think the old Tektronix 2465 types scopes are the best analog scopes ever, and the old HP 34401A and it's modern version the Keysight 34465A are the best bench DVMs available, but with the lower end digital scopes there are so many options. Same goes for the AWG and PS options. Must be fun for a younger engineer with all these options available.Anyway, thanks for the reply and info.Also like to hear options from valid sources regarding AWG and PS, but that's for another thread.Best,

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 09:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 21, 2020, 05:28:15 pmWhy not? I don't see any reason why it won't go to 500 MHz on one channel.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 09:45:00 pm
content: Hm, you might be right as I don´t know, if there is one ADC per channel avaible on the two channel model.When they use only one ADC for both channel, then 500Mhz won´t be possible.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 09:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 21, 2020, 09:45:00 pmI think it's exactly the same as 4-ch but with half components.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 10:08:49 pm
content: Then it would got only one ADC for both channels and you know that 500Mhz wasn´t possible.( On the 4ch model with 500Mhz upgrade, the bandwith are max 350Mhz when 1+2 or 3 +4 are active. When 1+3, 2+4, 1+4, 2+3 are active, 500Mhz are avaible.)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 10:10:50 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 21, 2020, 10:08:49 pmOn a 4 ch you get 500 only with half channels. So with 2ch scope you can get 500 MHz with only one ch...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 10:13:46 pm
content: Shoot....

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 12:01:46 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 21, 2020, 09:21:05 pmYes they are joy to use I can say. I supplement usage with a mouse and it further speeds operation to the physical UI and touch display.FYI the 10 bit mode is limited to 100 MHz BW however you can apply ERES to 10 Bit mode too.QuoteIn this class of instrument the requirement for 4 channels is more the norm from buyers to ensure they have coverage for decodes that require 3 or more channels and although I get where you're coming from but take a moment to consider the increased resale value of a 4ch model should you ever need to upgrade.QuoteQuite so and we live in exciting times for all the well priced and very capable instruments.I'm in early 60's and it's very fascinating the recent advances, not just in scopes but truly affordable spectrum analyzers too.QuoteYes when younger that was all that was available and their historical build quality is still with us now although caps have aged and replacements are often required as no doubt you well know.QuoteNo worries, can chat about TE all day with anyone that cares to listen !