Rigol DS1202Z-E entry level scope (200MHz, 2 channel) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: maukka
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 07:09:14 pm
content: Rigol just announced this. Same price as DS1054Z.Chinese news page.Batterflytweetedabout it today.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 07:29:11 pm
content: I wonder if it uses their new ASIC?Maybe there's going to be a matching DS1104-E that can be hacked to 200Mhz.Edit: No, according to Google translate it just looks like a 200Mhz bandwidth version of the DS1054Z. Maybe they're aiming at the 2-channel, 200MHz Siglent.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 11:27:15 am
content: New toy!!I think this adds some weight to the value of Siglent's SDS1202X-E... Rigol finally responded.Love the new designation: DS1054Z + SDS1202X-E = DS1202Z-E

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 11:59:45 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on October 04, 2019, 11:27:15 amA lot of people come in here thinking two channels is enough but want high bandwidth so I guess this makes sense.

author: wasyoungonce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 05:04:46 am
content: Changes....Looks to be higher bandwidth and that’s about all. According to google translate of the original rigol page. The Siglent introduced quite a few changes. IMHO Rigol would have to pitch any 4 channel version much cheaper than the siglent to compete. let’s see.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 11:26:21 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on October 04, 2019, 11:27:15 amIt depends a lot on how outside China price is after goverment subvention to Rigol for export.It must be LOT of more cheap than Siglent SDS1202X-E. Because its performance is (or looks like now due to lack of more deep info) lot of below it. Yes, Riglol have 24M max acquisition lenght when Siglents max is 14M (and this is just only one thing, some times important but...). Siglent have in waveform buffer up to over 54M but it is then other thing.No any sign if they finally have gone out from very limiting measurements intermediate buffer length.Also perhaps still total lack of fast segmented acquisition or more long FFT. No any sign if front end is less noisy than 4 channel models or if it can decode full memory length including also captures in memory (in this some kind of "frame recorder" what it have)Siglent have always seamless working backround working waveform buffer and a<ll these wafms can full meas, math, decode etc) And same things can do for fast sequence (max over 400kwfm/s) mode captured waveforms.All measurements can use full memory length so full current samplerate time time resolution even with low time bases.And Siglent 2 channel model have separate vertical adjustments.But it all is: what is Rigol price. If it is 200 or 300 and Siglent is 400 then user need think if Siglent some special functions/features and performance is worth for extra money. If they are nearly same, then 99% Siglent walk over it easy. Except if one need Rigol nameplate and it is morfe important than other things. It is fully: what things user need.If prices are ok and match with features and performance then both are good one for other and one for some other, depending user needs and I like red vs I like blue things.But if think example very old Rigol DS1052E, this is totally BIG step over it.

author: maukka
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 06:07:06 am
content: Product page on batterflyis up.QuoteI see HDMI out.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 06:27:36 am
content: Quote from: maukka on October 14, 2019, 06:07:06 amWhere?I see that Batterfly has linked to a performance verification guide:https://www.batterfly.com/PDF/RIGOL/ds1000ze/DS1000Z-E_PerformanceVerificationGuide_EN.pdfIt uses Fluke equipment (Fluke 9500B).

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 07:10:17 am
content: Top right.EDIT : Wrong image provided by Batterfly

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 07:10:58 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2019, 06:27:36 amOn one of the images but it's not listed as one of the I/O's in the datasheet.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 07:17:51 am
content: Quote from: maukka on October 14, 2019, 06:07:06 amSame price as SDS1202X-E but with 1/3 of the wfp/s ?Wonder if it still uses the Z processor as nothing is specified for FFT Mpts.

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 07:57:20 am
content: it's not the right image ... we are going to change now ... NO HDMI available on DS1202Z-E

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 08:01:31 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 14, 2019, 07:10:17 amIt's not on the sales brochure:(in fact that looks like a totally different oscilloscope on the web site, looks like Batterfly have goofed...)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 08:06:58 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 14, 2019, 07:17:51 amNope.Batterfly sells the SDS1202X-E for 499,00€ (Price incl 22% VAT: 608,78€)https://www.batterfly.com/shop/en/testandmeasurement/oscilloscopi/200MHz/siglent-sds1202xThat's nearly 50% more than the Rigol.Edit: My bad, that's the 1202X, not the 1202X-E.The 1202X-E goes for 325,00€ + VAT, ie. slightly less than this new Rigol.I'm not sure what Rigol pretends with this new model, apart from filling the "2-channel, 200MHz" gap in their lineup. It's obviously a case of too little, too late though.

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 08:07:33 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2019, 08:01:31 amThanks Fungus, in fact we had a marketing package with the wrong imagewe are waiting for the new image to upload on our website.

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 08:08:32 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2019, 08:06:58 am

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 08:20:59 am
content: I think more important question is, does Dave have it yet or on the way to him ?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 08:24:18 am
content: Why no black case? It's 2019. Everything should be in a black case now

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 08:25:11 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 14, 2019, 08:20:59 amI doubt it. This really doesn't feel like anything important or game changing.If they release an entry-level model with the new ASIC then we might be talking.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 09:38:10 am
content: Interesting move on Rigol portfolio :They retire 2000 E series and introduces 1000 E .4000 E model still available .DS1202Z-E is not listed as Ultra-Vision2 technology so I think it not based on new ASIC ...It seem to be based on old platform (1 GSa single channel / 500 Msa dual channel) , no hack need (all options active).

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 09:56:46 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 14, 2019, 08:24:18 amHello, in fact as you can see the RIGOL logo is blue and not black and yellow. You can find the same blue logo on DP832 and also in the most recent RSA3000E.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 10:13:24 am
content: Quote from: simone.pignatti on October 14, 2019, 09:56:46 amOn the Rigol 2100 E is the same blue label . All E series have blue logo ... E mean Educational or Economic ... ?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 10:24:40 am
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 14, 2019, 09:38:10 amHmm ... if .. a big IF that Rigol is "intentionally" hiding a trick up their sleeve, like the previous models hack, wonder what would that be ?For sure, business wise and such tactic works , its a fact, especially hurting it's competitors at low end fronts.

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 10:59:18 am
content: We have now loaded the correct image.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 11:31:21 am
content: Quote from: simone.pignatti on October 14, 2019, 10:59:18 amOne question: Does ti come with all the serial decoders, etc., that were optional on the Rigol DS1054Z?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 11:36:46 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2019, 08:25:11 amI guess it sort of makes sense from a marketing poitn of view, ie. to have a a 4-channel, 100Mhz version and a 2-channel, 200Mhz version at the same price.It's totally ignoring the big Siglent elephant in the room though.PS: Tautech.. what's the difference between the 1202X and the 1202X-E? Why is one worth 50% more than the other?

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 12:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2019, 11:31:21 amYes RS232 / UART, I2C, SPI

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 12:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2019, 11:36:46 amThe main difference between 1202X and the 1202X-E is the display size (8" Vs 7")

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 08:05:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2019, 11:36:46 amBigger form factor, 8" display, 50 ohm inputs, MSO and AWG capability......most of which has been migrated to the SDS2000X-E series that have BW's to 350 MHz. They start @ $619 and offer 2 GSa/s and have the much faster Xilinx processor.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 12:59:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 14, 2019, 11:31:21 amSerial decode is now standard on the DS1054Z as well as most of the options, except for BW upgrade.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 03:11:58 pm
content: I would love to give the benefit of the doubt if the oscilloscope is incredibly well rounded with buttery-smooth screen update rate, spotless serial decoding in memory, lag and bug free. That could potentially be achieved without the procesing overhead caused by the extra two channels of the 4-ch cousin - Rigol claims it is the same platform.From specs and form factor alone, it is really not a game changer: two channels without independent controls... 16k point FFTs... 30k wfms/s...The biggest offender: 500MSPS @ 200MHz analog bandwidth.Nothing to see here...

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 04:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 14, 2019, 09:38:10 amA while back we had a discussion here about scopes and the Rigol 4000 series sort of bubbled to the top as something of a sweet spot in the market. Not necessarily the best at anything, but very hard to duplicate the package at anywhere near the price from anyone else - particularly if you unlock one of the lower bandwidth units. Rigol has likely recovered all of their R&D costs on that series, so now it's a cash cow just churning out the profits while getting a lot of EE students and hobbyists familiar with the Rigol brand at a very low price.Are there better/faster/cheaper scopes? Absolutely. But for under $2K you can have a brand new scope with factory warranty that has 500MHz, 4GSa/sec, four channels with fully independent front panel controls, 9 inch color display, and full serial decoding. That's an amazing amount of T&M on your bench for the money.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 05:39:10 pm
content: 4000E model has 2GSa/s, not 4.But if you are talking about a DS4014, then we have the DS7014 for exactly the same price... (both unlockable as you know).

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 05:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on October 29, 2019, 05:39:10 pmI was speaking of the non-E version. I have one here on my bench and it explicitly says 4GSa/sec on its front panel.QuoteIf that's true, then maybe they'll retire the 4000 series. But I have seen 4000's on sale for under $2K, while I don't recall any 7000's in that price range (yet). If someone is willing to trade me a 7000 for my 4000, send me a PM and we'll work out the shipping! {grin} That would be a nice 2.5X bump in sampling rate.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 06:32:49 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on October 29, 2019, 05:47:20 pmIt appears so.DS4014DS7014with all options...

author: wnorcott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 06:44:47 pm
content: I wonder if it still has the crummy 'software only' decoders for I2C like the 1054Z ? That can only decode the portion of stream that is visible onscreen?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 06:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 29, 2019, 03:11:58 pmI agree. This is aimed at people who have "200Mhz, 2 channels" written on a shopping list and not much else.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 06:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: wnorcott on October 29, 2019, 06:44:47 pmI am afraid that is still the case. I have the 5074 and decode is slow, it updates like 500ms-1s after the waveform. If you watch the 8000 video, decode is slow as well.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 06:52:12 pm
content: Yeah it’s crap for that. Cheap aliexpress saleae clone is a better investment

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 06:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 29, 2019, 06:46:04 pmAgree. What about the MSO5152E ?

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 06:59:12 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 29, 2019, 06:52:12 pmIn my opinion the use of serial decode on DSO's is limited to a quick check to see if the right signals are there, nothing more (serial decode combined with the serial trigger). If you need to analyze the packets, then it is better to use a logic analyzer rather than scrolling up and down through the event table on the DSO.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 07:30:39 pm
content: Sure, reserving resources to develop a hw solution for a add-on like that one is definitely a thing out of this class of scopes.We all benefit from it because it keeps costs down. There 's no way around it.

author: wnorcott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 07:39:38 pm
content: Maybe it is time to get a logic analyzer. The 1054Z is a wonderful tool for what it does and whet my appetite for I2C, UART and SPI tracing but the limitations make it frustrating. The challenge is my interest in analog and digital exceeds my skill set, and my skill set exceeds my budget.I wonder if the Intrustar ISDS205C on aliexpress is any good? It has a logic analyzer and is in the $60 range -- that I can handle.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 07:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: wnorcott on October 29, 2019, 07:39:38 pmThat statement is likely true for almost everyone here! {grin}Don't get discouraged. Get the tools you can, push them to their limits while you save/trade up to the next level.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 07:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: TK on October 29, 2019, 06:50:35 pmRemember: That one has a LOT of memory to decode.Quote from: wnorcott on October 29, 2019, 07:39:38 pmThe 'scope is for looking at the shape of the signals, making sure your I2C pullups are doing their job, etc.Quote from: wnorcott on October 29, 2019, 07:39:38 pmYou can get simple logic analyzers for $6 on eBay. They're plenty fast enough for I2C, UART and Arduino-speed SPI.https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=usb+logic+analyzerYou'll also find that using a PC with gigabytes of memory+mouse+keyboard is a better way to do it than on a tiny screen with twisty knobs.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 07:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: wnorcott on October 29, 2019, 07:39:38 pmIf you have to pick just one for now, IMHO a scope is more important, and more versatile, than a logic analyzer. But it's also more expensive to buy an entry-level scope than an entry-level logic analyzer. Only YOU can decide how to balance your budget.Over the years I've developed and debugged countless serial interface systems with traditional, non-storage, non-decodinganalog{gasp} scopes. Serial comm has been around a lot longer than modern DSO's. Just work up in steps, by first repeatedly transmitting the same data packet - even a single byte - so the scope's triggering can give you a stable display. Confirm the bits are proper, then vary the bits to confirm the output tracks your code. Then get the receive side working. Now you're exchanging data at the byte level, so move to multiple bytes. And so on, up the curve. Soon you'll have serial data flowing around without a logic analyzer or a storage scope in sight.Do fancy tools make it easier? You bet. Can it be done without them? Absolutely - many have done so before you, and you can do it too.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 07:53:13 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on October 29, 2019, 07:51:04 pmYou really need both - one to see signal integrity and the other to sniff the data.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 07:57:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 29, 2019, 07:50:58 pmIt only decodes what is in the screen, not the full sample memory

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 08:23:03 pm
content: Quote from: TK on October 29, 2019, 07:57:39 pmIt doesn't work with "pixels" like the DS1054Z, it actually does a memory decode of the area shown on screen.And ... it's perfectly possible to show the whole of memory on screen.ie. If yours is slow, check your memory depth and sample rate. You probably don't need all that.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 08:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 29, 2019, 08:23:03 pmThanks, I will test lowering the memory depth and sample rate.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:25:38 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 29, 2019, 08:23:03 pmWhich still sucks. Try to zoom in on parts of a long message to look at the waveform of the signal (which is the primary use of decoding on an oscilloscope). It doesn't work on oscilloscopes which only decode what is on screen. I don't understand why oscilloscope manufacturers still dare to put scopes on the market which work this way in 2019.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:32:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2019, 01:25:38 amBecause firmware is cheap, and dedicated hardware is expensive.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:43:16 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on October 30, 2019, 01:32:43 amYou don't need dedicated hardware. Just an extra path inside the FPGA. The signal can be downsampled a lot before processing so decoding isn't a very demanding task either. MicSig can do it in their 500 euro tablet scopes...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 07:57:39 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2019, 01:25:38 amYou don't need to capture a long message to see the waveform.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 08:07:17 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2019, 01:43:16 amSays who?You realize that what you're saying is like saying "my car has four wheels and an engine, why can't it go 200mph? There's no reason it won't except the people who made it are soooo stupid!"Me? I'd say the people who programmed the DS1054Z are quite heroic for getting such a limited piece of hardware to do any decoding at all.Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2019, 01:43:16 amFeel free to buy one of those.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 10:49:34 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 30, 2019, 07:57:39 amBut you need to see the decoding to know where you are at inside the message.Quote from: Fungus on October 30, 2019, 08:07:17 amSomeone with FPGA programming and building/designing data acquisition systems experience.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 11:17:36 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 30, 2019, 08:07:17 amI'm going to bitch and moan here.No.The DS1054Z has a 454MHz ARM9 is two orders of magnitude slower than a HP 54600 with a 10MHz 68000 and 16k of RAM made 26 years ago...They can do better.Most of the problems with the DS1054Z are not in the acquisition side of things but obviously in the rest of it.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 12:01:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2019, 11:17:36 amIn due fairness this is not correct.You all know that we're talking about realtime equipments with limited resources. Of course we can fine tune indefinitely but there's a moment when we have to stop or when the proc scheduling can't accept any other task!These are not academic projects. These are commercial products.This theme can go on indefinitely...We usually see discussions here about BW upgrading (all types of venues) and always discuss the theme from the analog part of the scope but, for sure, many times the problem is simply the processing power to crunch the same functionalities/options at a higher speed.But, in the end, it's all about $$$

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 12:07:49 pm
content: It's not real time. If it was real time, the UI would respond in a timely fashion. I know this from using VxWorks on Xilinx / PPC about two decades ago. Basic operations when it is not doing any heavy crunching (1 trace, low sample rate) is SLOOOOOOOOOOW as fuck and there is no noticeable difference in how slow as fuck it goes when it is crunching.The scope is two things glued together:1. Acquisition and preprocessing (mostly in the FPGA by the looks)2. UI and postprocessing (mostly in the CPU side of things by the looks)The latter is definitely not real time. It runs Linux, which is not real time. And it sucks.It is all about $$$ in the end you're right. The second half of the scope is where they saved the money and it was in the software not the hardware.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 12:20:37 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2019, 12:07:49 pmI agree. I'm quite sure that the hardware of the DS1054Z is capable of delivering much better performance with better software. And it doesn't take going for some exotic realtime OS. Linux will do just fine. With better programming so tasks which take long can be interrupted the UI response will be much faster. With decoding inside the FPGA (this doesn't need to take a whole lot of logic as well) the end product could easely be 10 times better. But all this takes more time to program and better software engineers. Not Rigol's strong suit at all.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 12:33:48 pm
content: What's even more depressing is I played with an MSO5000 at a hamfest and it was just as bad. Seriously if you have that as an architectural problem and it's pretty obvious you need to go back and find out why and fix it. If that means you did something stupid and have to tear the thing apart and start again, then so be it.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 12:40:22 pm
content: If the "whole system" wasnt realtime, it wouldn't work. And, you can have specific parts without realtime OSes as long as the "big picture" performs within the deadlines. That doesnt mean the system isn't realtime.We both understand each other points.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 12:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2019, 12:33:48 pmRegarding this part: I've done quite a bit of reversing in this scopeand, in this one, I totally agree with you . There is plenty of surplus code. That leads me to believe that the thing wasn't done with so much care as a DS1054Z.That corollary that when you have plenty of HW power the SW guys can be sloppier...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:05:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2019, 10:49:34 amI'm not disputing the "path" part, it's the "just an extra" part that bothers me.A serial decoder for multiple protocols won't be a small/trivial thing to implement in an FPGA. Maybe there simply isn't any space left in this one.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:12:42 pm
content: Yes agree there. It's mostly triggering concerns I suspect in the FPGA. Anything after that i.e. actually parsing the protocol should be a software decode function from the sample memory (not the bloody screen!)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 30, 2019, 01:05:25 pmActually it is very trivial. UART, I2C, etc peripherals are really simple blocks of logic. Protocol error detection is already standard on these blocks so the only thing needed is to timestamp what comes out and store that data. It doesn't need to be more fancy than that.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:17:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2019, 01:14:44 pmI disagree there. Those tend to only trigger/work when the protocol is not broken, which is one reason I had to break the scope out for a problem recently. The DS1054Z seems to trigger when the protocol is bust pretty well. There's a big difference between a functional trigger and a working protocol.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2019, 01:17:48 pmTriggering on a protocol is entirely different compared to decoding. What you need for triggering on a protocol is pattern matching. This isn't difficult to implement in a statemachine or using partical FPGA reconfiguration to load the trigger engine.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2019, 01:12:42 pmI suspect the main DS1054Z CPU doesn't have direct access to sample memory, only to the downsampled version of the data you see displayed on screen.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 02:11:41 pm
content: I'm not so sure as you can pull the entire sample memory via network if I remember correctly. That'd have to go through the CPU.Edit:http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20151218/MSO1000Z&DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf.. see :WAVEform: ....

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 02:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2019, 12:33:48 pmIf they are comparing themselves to Tektronix MDO3 or MDO4, then they should be just fine.Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2019, 12:33:48 pmSiglent seems to have done this on their SDS2000 series - the software seems to have been quite overhauled at a certain point in time with their "V2" (referencehere).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 03:43:09 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2019, 02:11:41 pmSure, but it goes really sloooooow.The FPGA obviously has a mechanism for copying chunks of sample memory to main memory (probably in 1200 byte blocks - twice the number of pixels on screen, it's a number that comes up alotin the programming manual). It doesn't mean you can process the whole of sample memory quickly though.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 02:17:59 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 14, 2019, 08:20:59 amNope, just heard about this today, did see this thread.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 10:04:45 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 30, 2019, 03:43:09 pmIf data transfer is slow it is perfectly possible that data transfer from the acquisition memory (attached to the FPGA) to the CPU goes through SPI or I2C on the DS1054Z. On the Xilinx Zync platform based oscilloscopes the acquisition memory is connected to the main CPU directly.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 09:26:13 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 29, 2019, 06:46:04 pmRigol's motivation for releasing this model seems pretty clear: They are consolidating their portfolio, replacing the DS2000E with a model based on the cheaper DS1000Z platform.Makes good sense from their point of view, and I am sure Rigol checked that they had enough DS2000E customers to justify a replacement model. But I agree that the DS1202Z-E doesn't add anything new to their offering.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2019, 09:37:57 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 07, 2019, 09:26:13 amIt's a lot cheaper than a DS2000E, if that's their target.

author: cz7asm
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 08:31:22 am
content: I'm considering this Rigol DS1202Z-E or Siglent SDS1202X-E. Is there anyone who could share some experience and help me decide? Thanks.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2020, 09:05:14 am
content: Decent review here:https://www.microfarad.de/blog/oscilloscope-comparison/It's the DS1054Z but cross out two channels in your mind and double the bandwidth and it's the same.

author: Hundleton1
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 09:33:29 pm
content: Hi all, I am looking at this compared to the SDS1202X-E trying to decide between them.one thing I have not been able to find out is if the DS1202Z-E is based off the hardware of the old DS1054Z or is it new. any real world feedback on this scope.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 09:36:53 pm
content: I swapped my Rigol out for a SDS1202X-E in the end and it is a much much much nicer scope IMHO. Rigol feels like a piece of crap compared to it especially from a software perspective.

author: yuriy96
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 26, 2020, 06:36:28 pm
content: Hi, All! I bought this stuff recently and have problem with external trigger- it is not work. Anybody can test it?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 06:12:37 am
content: Quote from: yuriy96 on April 26, 2020, 06:36:28 pmCan I test your machine from here? No, sorry, we're confined at home because of coronavirus.

author: yuriy96
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 07:00:45 am
content: I meant to test on your oscilloscope) maybe it is bug for this model

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 09:24:56 am
content: Quote from: maukka on October 14, 2019, 06:07:06 amBiggest problem is they didn't up the sampling rate to 2Gs/S

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 12:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: snoopy on April 27, 2020, 09:24:56 amI don't get why this is any better than a DS1054Z with 'upgraded' bandwidth.

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 04:41:46 am
content: It is very tempting with the current discount, I almost bought it, but.... From what I read it is a cosmetic modification of ds1054z. The latter is 5 years old so I assume it is nearing the end of production. Now why would a company bother to release a "new" product on a 5 years old hardware is beyond me. I think i will either go for Siglent sds1202x-e of wait for a true new version of Rigol.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 03:29:45 pm
content: And why would you pay the same for half as many channels?

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 04:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on April 28, 2020, 03:29:45 pmMaybe because of 4 times faster rise time 1.75 ns vs 7.0 ns ?And it is not actually the same. Currently it is $50 cheaper at least in the US.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 11:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: karamba on April 28, 2020, 04:11:43 pmIs that true after the 'upgrade' to DS1204Z?

author: plutonian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 12:17:48 am
content: Hi, I'm the proud owner of a DS1052E which had served me very well for the last 7 or 8 years. However with the current discount in Rigol DS1202Z-E (2ch, 1GSa/s, 200mhz, 24Mpts, $299)https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/1000z/and Siglent SDS1202X-E (2ch, 1GSa/s, 200mhz, 14Mpts, $379)https://siglentna.com/product/sds1202x-e/I'm kind of in the fence to get one of them. Hardware specs are more than what I need for my hobby use case "flashing leds in Arduino", I also don't need 4ch and I own a genuine Saleae LA. So I just wonder which one has a better more intuitive UI, less bugs and is more likely to receive future firmware updates.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 12:40:54 am
content: Quote from: plutonian on May 04, 2020, 12:17:48 amIn your case, I would just go with the cheapest option (Rigol)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 08:01:06 am
content: SDS1202X-E is less like cheese grating your testicles from a usability perspective.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 08:30:18 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 04, 2020, 08:01:06 amUntil it goes wrong and you want support; then it's like trying to get blood out of a stone.Metaphors abound!Seriously, I keep seeing these comments about how awful the Rigols are, how the UI is so slow it's unusable. I own a DS2072, DS1054Z, and an MSO5074; they all get the job done and I'm happy I bought them. I don't sit there waiting for the scope to respond to key strokes. I bought anewSDS1202X-E and it had a problem which was caused by missing capacitors on the PCB; I had to argue with the NA Sales manager to (eventually) get my money back.Sure, mine is one data point but, if you're going to criticize Rigols, at least try to be a little bit objective.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 09:33:38 am
content: Being ojective I owned, err three DS1054Z's and now an SDS1202X-E.We have a decent reseller here who will deal with stuff if there's a problem.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 10:13:57 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on May 04, 2020, 08:30:18 amMe either. I just don't get it.The vertical control could respond a bit better, sure, but itdoesmove the trace and I don't ever recall it preventing me from taking a measurement. Not once.The menus and stuff? They're not sluggish or slow at all.I'm much more annoyed by things like having to push the multifunction knob to make a selection. It's an awful way to do things, and the Siglent doesn't fix that.The Siglents also make it very painful to dothe most basic thingslike enable on-screen measurements. The Rigol has a dedicated column of buttons down the left side for this. The Siglent makes you go into a popup menu and do endless twiddling of the twisty knob to move around a grid of measurements enabling/disabling them.To show the same process on a Siglent I'd need to make a whole instructional video. Cheese grater indeed.Edit: You can see the process of enabling measurements on a Siglent in this video at the 4:23 mark:"Ok, let's get back out ofthat..." fumble, fumble.How about we never go intothatin the first place?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 11:13:48 am
content: Actually not quite as easy with the Rigols...1. Push top button to get horizontal or vertical measurements2. whop the fiddly up/down button to scroll through the entire list three times while squinting because you can't ID the difference between Vpk and Vmax measurement due to low pixel count fonts and shitty graphics3. press the right one.4. Swear it it because it wasn't set on the right channel because the visual cues as to what channel you are on are crap. I mean light blue and dark blue - seriously?!5. Do the channel dance.6. Go to 1 until you get the right channel.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 02:10:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 04, 2020, 11:13:48 amI never had a problem with that. Besides the large higlighted channel indicator at the bottom of the screen, also all measurement icons change their lettering color to indicate the channel which is currently selected, and which the measurements refer to. So that information is right where I'm looking anyway.And while Rigol's choice of channel colors is certainly a matter of personal taste, I won't complain. At least I have no problem telling them apart, despite of my red/green color blindness. Red/orange/yellow/green/brown would have been bad choices from my perspective, and out of these "difficult" colors, Rigol uses only one.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 06:35:36 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 04, 2020, 02:10:49 pmSo does the Siglent...(nb. Both of them do it on the last channel so it's the least commonly used)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 06:45:50 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 04, 2020, 02:10:49 pmWould Siglent's green fourth channel cause you more difficulty than Rigol's blue?

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 06:53:01 pm
content: Funny that the "two blue" trace color topic has surfaced again. That's my Number One complaint about my Rigol DS4000 series scope. Lots of other small things I'd change if I could, butseriously... there is a whole spectrum of colors available. Why two shades of blue?!? This is especially frustrating when capturing a screenshot to a file. I've lost count of the times I've had to (re)explain to someone that "No, I mean the OTHER blue trace".Seems like a firmware update could make the trace color selectable. Can't be that difficult, and would involve (nearly) zero extra real-time processing once the color was selected.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 07:05:02 pm
content: Perhaps they didn't know the English word for green?(I had to learn all the chinese colours to build one of those shitty AM radio kits that don't work a while ago)

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 07:24:44 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on May 04, 2020, 06:53:01 pmThat is quite interesting; I don't really have a problem with the two shades of blue but I understand your reasons for complaint - the colors are not very dissimilar.To me the interface itself is so personal that it is impossible to quantify. The Tektronix interface of an old TDS3054 (B or C, I don't recall) that I used to work with was quite alright for my taste, with the only pet peeve being the large surrouding menu areas that prevented the graticule from filling the entire (already small) screen. Also, the cursor and DC offset cursors were not terribly fast and got worse as math/FFT was applied, but I was ok with that - as @Gandalf_Sr and @Fungus have said, it didn't block me from doing anything.A bit later I got my old Rigol DS1102E which had a similar easiness of use and responsiveness, thus I was quite comfortable with it. Not knowing better, I started using a "washing machine" Windows 2000-based TDS7104 that had a seriously terrible interface and responsiveness. I would take my Rigol any day.A few years later I got a DS4014 and, despite four channels, it has independent controls and the row of buttons on the left side of the screen are really handy for me - I use measurements a lot and don't have a problem with the fonts themselves. Its menus and overall UI and responsiveness are somewhat similar to the old TDS3054 but the reviews around the internet say its responsiveness is crap. After playing with HPAKs DSOX1000, DSOX3000 and DSOX4000 I can tell why - they are the kings of buttery and smooth controls. However, these models don't have the left row of buttons and the menus are less obvious to me (perhaps a matter of familiarity). The worst aspect of the two lower range HPAK models, however, is the rectangular graticule - they fit the same ten divisions but on a wide screen (the DSOX4000 has a 4:3 screen). The DS4014 has 14 square divisions on the wide screen.I also got to play with the Lecroy (forgot now which model) but it was equally smooth and a really capable oscilloscope - that would be a brand I would heavily consider if I had the dough. The more moderns Tek MDO 3 and 4 had a terrible UI and responsiveness. I never used a R&S but the reviews tell it is a great product.All this to show the umbrella statement that Rigol UI is crap may be overblown by one's past experiences.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 08:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on May 04, 2020, 06:53:01 pmUmmm... one of them is "cyan", not blue.Cyan, Magenta, Yellow - the three most visible colors on an RGB screen.Quote from: IDEngineer on May 04, 2020, 06:53:01 pmMaybe if you stop saying "light blue"... use the color names used by the rest of the world.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 08:36:33 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 04, 2020, 07:05:02 pmOr ... maybe they know that red-green color blindness is the most common type, and they also know that people with that condition can't distinguish green from the other colors. Hence Blue.(and hence my question to the color blind person a few posts up)

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2020, 11:03:45 pm
content: Or maybe, they could just let the trace colors be user defined. Then there would be no argument, and everyone could do whatever best suits their needs.And yes, I do know what cyan means. I have printing technology in my background so that's not surprising. Trouble is, many people do not know subtle colors names. I referred to "light blue" because that's what I hear most often when this problem comes up. Folks describe them as "light blue" and "dark blue".Bottom line: It doesn't matter what names people use for color. If they're confusing the colors, there's a user interface problem. And this one is especially easy to correct.

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 12:58:29 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on May 04, 2020, 11:03:45 pmMaybe you with your printing technology background also can come up with the idea to to paint the knobs to correspond the color scheme of your custom lines ? Maybe a carousel inside like we used to see in it in multi CD players back then ? :-0See life is not that simple.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 05:33:16 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 04, 2020, 06:45:50 pmThat would depend on what Siglent's other three colors are.I have some difficulty telling green/yellow/orange apart; e.g. with those two-color LEDs often used as status indicators. My Kindle's charge indicator is a notorious example; never sure whether it's still charging or done.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 05:54:52 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 04, 2020, 06:35:36 pmWhile I struggle with colors, you seem to struggle with counting?Just looked at some pictures of the Siglent four-channel scopes, and they use yellow, red, and green. That's three "difficult" colors in my book. (Or is that magenta instead of red? Can't quite tell; but yellow and green are still slightly more than one...)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 06:05:50 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 05, 2020, 05:54:52 amMagenta

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 02:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 05, 2020, 05:33:16 amSo on a Siglent you wouldn't be able to tell trace #4 (green) from the yellow trace, but on a Rigol you can tell trace #4 (blue) from the others.Point proven methinks.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 02:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on May 04, 2020, 11:03:45 pmExcept they wouldn't match the colors painted on the case/buttons.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 02:21:42 pm
content: How about we just make all the traces black?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 06:14:34 pm
content: Obviously we need RGB backlighting on the channel select buttons.(and a full rainbow of those little plastic rings that go on the probes)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2020, 06:15:34 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 05, 2020, 02:21:42 pmMaybe we can get the UI experts at Apple to make everything grey on grey.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 03:31:24 pm
content: [Model Supported] All the DS1000Z-E Series Digital Oscilloscopes.[Latest Revision Date] 2020-02-29[Updated Contents]v00.06.02.00.01 2019-09-29- Modified the upgrade file name- Fixed the measure error when selecting math as the measurement source- Fixed bug about storage CSV files- Fixed the automatic cursor error when set 5ns time base，in average mode[Previous Versions and Updated Contents]v00.06.01.00.00 2019-09-20- The first version is released.

author: plutonian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 10:39:59 pm
content: I pulled the trigger on the Rigol DS1202Z-E at $299, free shipping and no sales tax. I don't really see anything on the Siglent SDS1202X-E worth of $79 (26% more) . For others considering it, here is the first review I have seen in youtube.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 03:57:58 pm
content: Quote from: plutonian on May 17, 2020, 10:39:59 pmDon't forget to register for the free 5-year warranty:https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0079:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?sid=TV2:Kt5oPeWlY

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 08:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: plutonian on May 17, 2020, 10:39:59 pmThey are quite different despite being in the same price range. Siglent is a newer tool and uses more capable components, For example FFT on Siglent is much better (due to inclusion of math coprocessor ) and 3 times higher waveform capture rate. You may not need it but for those who do $79 price difference is justified.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 09:01:23 pm
content: Quote from: karamba on May 30, 2020, 08:52:54 pmIt's not actually, SDS1202X-E has been around for a few years and the similar Rigol was introduced as competition for it. SDS1202X-E is a big seller and I can't get any until a 4000+ unit order is fulfilled at the factory.A few of the features developed in the later SDS1004X-E models have been retrospectively added to the SDS1202X-E to keep them updated and similar to their 4ch brother.

author: karamba
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 09:27:42 pm
content: You are right, What I meant is that Rigol is just a cut down version of their venerable but much older Rigol DS1054Z unit.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 10:28:31 am
content: Quote from: karamba on May 30, 2020, 09:27:42 pmThat was my impression too; what sense is there in paying for 2 channels when you can get the 4 for the same money?

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 06:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on May 31, 2020, 10:28:31 am200MHz vs 50MHz unhacked? The DS1054Z can be hacked to 100MHz but not to 200MHz

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 06:55:50 pm
content: OK, it's only 100 MHz (133 some say) hacked, it still has only half the number of channels. I suppose if you must have 200 MHz and 133 MHz won't do and you're OK with just 2 channels.....

author: MasterT
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:46:02 pm
content: Software bug with FFT mode activated.There are two pictures, same input, one is taken in acquisition->normal and another in acquisition->high resolution. It tooks me awhile to figure out, that frequency peaks on the right side of the screen are aliasing artefacts produced by scope. Imagine, I was debugging stm32g474 DDS synthesizerTo avoid such confusion, ether::- run fft from Memory, than switching acquisition doesn't matter;- or do not use high resolution acquisition, if fft is in trace mode.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 01:07:28 am
content: I have gotten *very* annoyed by the 5% overshoot on my Instek MSO2204EA. So I asked Rigol for a step response from the DS1202Z-E. The *next* day I got this:I immediately ordered one. I made a similar request to Tektronix in late April, but still have no step response on a 3 series. I bought a Keysight MSOX3104T but returned it when it had a 7% overshoot. An RTM3104 demo arrived with 3% overshoot but completely useless FFT. The sales guy suggested a FW update which resulted in a 10% overshoot. Restoring the original FW version did not correct that. And R&S doesn't want to talk about it.A *very* good old school Tek analog step response from a DSO for $300 was a complete no brainer.Methinks Rigol will eat someone else's lunch soon.Once it arrives I'll do a head to head of the Instek MSO2204EA, Rigol DS1202Z-E and an Owon XDS-2102A.Reg

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 10:54:39 am
content: Reg, this thread may be of interest to you:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 02:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on June 14, 2020, 01:07:28 amAre you comparing apples to apples? Same source and same probe? The Rigol picture you received for sure is not using your setup from your lab

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 07:18:46 pm
content: You do *not* measure the step response with a probe. You do it with a 50 ohm source with a 50 ohm thru termination if the scope doesn't have a 50 ohm input.The first thing I am going to do when it arrives is put one of my <40 ps rise time pulsers on it and verify the step response. If it is not a reasonable match to the figure it will go back in the box and returned. I asked simply to avoid going through the return process for something which would not be acceptable.Leo Bodnar's fast edge pulsers are *very* good. They come with a plot of the individual unit measured with a Tek CSA803A and 40 GHz SD-30 sampling head. I've also got a 1 GHz Tek 7104 to testify to the quality of the step. And a 350 MHz Tek 495 and 11801 with a 20 GHz SD-26 sampling head to check that.I should note that the step response on my DS1102E is almost identical, just not as fast. So I have good reason to expect it's a valid example of the Rigol step response standards. I cannot understand why anyone would accept 7% overshoot on a $20K MSRP DSO.Have Fun!Reg

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:15:01 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 14, 2020, 07:18:46 pmPost your results here...An ordinary "100Mhz" Rigol DS1054Z can show a 1.6ns rise time with the right cables/pulse generator (see image) so I can't imagine any worrying is warranted. The DS1202Z-Ewillbe a 200Mhz 'scope. And probably a little bit more.nb. That's the 12th image in this post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1818215/#msg1818215

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 08:50:33 pm
content: There's something fishy about a 1.6 ns rise time on a 100 MHz scope. I suspect that the timebase setting is too slow for the rise time to be accurately measured. What was the signal source and means of connection?In looking at the thread around your link it's clear that a lot of people don't understand the math.Brick wall (boxcar in some circles) filters *always* ring. The Fourier transform of a boxcar is sinc(t). Contrary to what many seem to think, overshoot is *not* Gibbs phenomenum. That applies to creating a sinc(f) in the frequency domain and taking the Fourier transform to get a boxcar in time. Or creating a function consisting of a DC spike in the real part and a Hilbert operator in the imaginary part. The mathematics are completely different.To preclude ringing the anti-alias filter must roll of in a long ramp. A good rule of thumb is a corner frequency which is 1/2 of Nyquist. That's an 8 pole filter to be 48 dB down at Nyquist. An 8 pole analog filter is problematic to build because of component tolerances, however, once the signal has been digitized, the FPGA can apply a Wiener filter to correct the errors in the response with coefficients determined on a per unit basis on the production line.If the ramp is as wide as the flat part of the passband, then the time domain response is sinc(t)**2 and the sidelobes die off very quickly. If the ramp is narrower then the response is the product of a pair of sinc(t) functions. The narrower the ramp the more amplitude in the side lobes as that sinc(t) term is wider than the flat section sinc(t).Moreover, using a symmetric, zero phase sinc interpolator on a scope is *wrong* That is what produces the spurious precursor ringing. The correct filter is a minimum phase sinc interpolator. However, that also requires N separate multiplies whereas a zero phase FIR filter can eliminate (N-1)/2 multiplies. I don't know if the use of the wrong interpolator is ignorance or cost cutting. But in any case it results in a display which does not accurately portray the input signal.I have a friend who has a hacked DS1054Z and one of Leo's pulsers. So I'll setup a direct comparison of the DS1202E, hacked DS1054Z and the DS1202Z-E alongside an Instek MSO2204EA and an Owon XDS-2102A. and if I can find the screen dump, a Keysight MSOX3104T. 7% overshoot on a $20K MSRP DSO is pretty depressing. And changing the rise time calculation on the datasheet from 0.35/BW to 0.45/BW going from 500 MHz to 1 GHz in the same model line is *really* depressing.Have Fun!Reg

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 12:39:56 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 15, 2020, 08:50:33 pmIt's well known that the Rigol DS1154Z (ie. a hacked DS1054Z) has over 100Mhz measured bandwidth.My manual says the calculated rise time for a DS1104Z is 3.5ns so TurboTom's result is half that, ie 200MHz. Maybe he won the lottery with his particular 'scope but he claimed it does that on all 4 channels.Quote from: rhb on June 15, 2020, 08:50:33 pmPossibly. All measurements are don';t using on-screen data and that's as low as the timebase goes.Quote from: rhb on June 15, 2020, 08:50:33 pmTT's post has the details.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1818215/#msg1818215Quote from: rhb on June 15, 2020, 08:50:33 pmIf there's "ringing"beforethe signal starts to rise then there's Gibbs present, the only other explanation is that your 'scope is psychic and can predict the future.A similar amount of Gibbs will be present after the rise where the real ringing happens. That's why it's useful to measure the 'Pre', as shown in the screenshot.You can see the spacing between the samples relative to the signal in the shot TT posted after that:Quote from: rhb on June 15, 2020, 08:50:33 pm

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 03:13:49 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 16, 2020, 12:39:56 amMy DS1102E has a 2ns/div setting, so I question whether the example above at 5 ns/div is at the limit of the timebase. As I said, there is something fishy about it.As I stated previously, precursor ringing has *nothing* to do with Gibb's phenomenum. It is an artifact of using a symmetric, zero phase interpolator. Gibb's phenomenum is an artifact of creating a waveform in the frequency domain and transforming to time. And it was shown by Gibb's before the appearance of discretely sampled signals.DSOs acquire data in the time domain. So there is *no* transform from frequency to time. The ADC cannot *measure* a precursor to a step because in a physical system it does not exist. Which is also why you can't trigger on the precursor peaks. And why there is no ringing in the sample dots in the 2nd figure.In dot mode my Instek MSO2204EA has no precursor. In vector mode it does. My Owon XDS-2102A has the precursor in both dot and vector mode.Physical systems are minimum phase. In seismic processing, because a symmetric reflection event is easier to interpret, the data have a signature deconvolution step applied which transforms the minimum phase response of the recording system to zero phase. As a consequence, sinc(x) interpolators are zero phase. However that is *not* appropriate for a physical, causal system.I'll post a conclusive demonstration when my DS1202Z-E arrives. In the mean time I strongly suggest you review the mathematics. It is irrelevant whether you were never taught it or you've forgotten it. In either case your argument is wrong. And I have the library and instruments to prove it when the new Rigol arrives.Have Fun!Reg

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 04:59:38 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 16, 2020, 03:13:49 amIt's the limit on a DS1104Z.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 09:14:50 am
content: Navigational WarningDon't flash the Z-E firmware in the old DS1000Z scope!Because it seems Rigol made an error and it's possible to flash the 1st released version in the older machine, limiting it to 2 channels.

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 08:02:47 pm
content: I sure owe you all a great deal. I have been reading the forums and watching all the videos for about a week now, trying to decide between this and the '54. Despite what Dave said about just get the DS1054Z-E, for me I think I am likely to get more out of the extra bandwidth than an extra 2 channels. The problem was that it was a VERY close call for me. I had to keep leaving it overnight while I thought about it, even then it did not help that much. So today I pulled the trigger (so to speak) and bought the 1202 finally. Now I am actually excited to get my paws on it! Until now I have been making do with a scope that cost many times more, but back in the 60s. It is a Telequipment DM53A mainframe with dual beams. Both amplifiers are the best that was made for it, as was the timebase. It is valve, weighs over 55lbs and has a bandwidth of 25MHz. It has been in storage for years as life got in the way of me getting a new scope. So today is another one off my bucket list thankfully.The people at TEquipment are wonderful. They even have a tax-free sale running at the moment, which is what made me decide to get it today, rather than put it off another month again. It is also why I bought it direct from them, rather than through Amazon as I normally do. They even answered my questions with more patience than one ought to expect...I have another good reason to be thankful for this board - Who else would listen to me being excited over an oscilloscope???

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 12:35:13 am
content: I bought mine direct from Rigol. Got a call while fixing supper to confirm zip code.Based on my DS1102E experience , I suspect the DS1202Z-E will replace the Instek MSO2204EA as my daily driver.When I bought my DS1102E, Rigol's support was not very impressive. But they seem to have figured out that customer service is everything and have improved it tremendously.Very interested to hear what your reaction is.Have Fun!Reg

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 12:40:51 am
content: Quote from: Fred Basset on June 16, 2020, 08:02:47 pmYou're in good company, my friend. I promise you don't get more excited than me over a new scope. Just ask my wife... oscilloscopes are a running joke in our marriage.In fact, it started when we were dating in high school. You can probably relate to this story. Her Dad made the mistake of asking me (in high school!) what I liked to do, and what career I thought I'd pursue. Next visit I carried my Philips PM3214 scope and a dynamic microphone along and set it up on their dining room table. I didn't figure they would care about what you actually use a scope for, but they might appreciate the concept of seeing their voice on the screen with the sort of immediate visual feedback it represented. I hooked up everything and her Dad strolled in. I gave him the 15 second explanation and then started saying "check check check" into the microphone, with my voice faithfully appearing on the screen. I turned expecting to see, if not understanding, at least appreciation.His response: "I can say 'check check check' without all that stuff." And he left the room.I got the last laugh, though. Years later, I convinced my wife's Mom to invest in a startup I was working for. The Dad told her to "kiss your money goodbye" as he had zero faith it would amount to anything. She suited action to words and literally kissed the check, leaving lipstick. Within a couple of years they started getting dividends on their stock, which well exceeded their initial investment. I waited for a while, then asked him about it. His reply: "You two are the only ones of our children that haven't continued to cost us money. It feels strange... we're actuallymakingmoney from you." One of the best compliments I've ever received. He's gone now, but my wife's Mom later told us that every time a dividend check appeared in the mail, he'd just stare at it and shake his head.Never underestimate the power of an oscilloscope.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 12:59:09 am
content: LoL!Thanks for sharing that story.The hobby machinists go through the same thing. Why would you want a lathe or mill?Many people think old cars are cool. But making parts for them boring.Go figure.Have Fun!Reg

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 02:21:12 pm
content: Well, another day closer to my scope! Me...Clock-watching??? You bet I am!I am in the doghouse now anyway. We are going to be a bit short of food until tomorrow. Do you need three guesses who got so carried away with a scope, that he completely forgot to place an order for food? Oops.IDEngineer, that is a wonderful story. When I was 11 my school had an open day where parents came along. In the physics lab I spotted my first ever real oscilloscope. All the others were on TV. Yes, it was the same thing, a microphone plugged into it. Ratty old thing it was really, the wire for the microphone had broken at the connector and everything was held together by black insulating tape.I never thought about this before, but watching all of those "Open University" programmes in Britain as a child must have had some effect on me, because I remember looking at all of those thin green lines on the screen and wondering how the scope decided to put them there? What I was seeing was lots of overlayed green lines and wondering if each one was the outer edge of some frequency band or something like that? What I failed to appreciate was that I was seeing the outer envelope of my whole voice, but because it was free-running and not triggering off a repeating part of the signal, it just kept writing green lines over each other making it look like many traces.When I first got into electronics, I think a roughly comparable scope to this was over ten grand? Might have had more bandwidth, but did not have all the functions like math. It is staggering how much you get now for the money. These scopes seem to be at the top of the sweet spot? Because even small improvements from this level seem to cost you ever larger chunks of money.I remember an article about an HP oscilloscope with an unimaginable price tag (about $250,000 in the 80s I think), but what got everyone's attention was that people were questioning that it seemed to be being shown displaying a signal that was faster than light. They had to explain that the "x5" was on, and that it was not breaking any laws. What I took away from that was that we now had scopes that can measure to a significant part of C. Even now I find that staggering.My old DM53 had the mounts for a Polaroid camera on it! Never did get the camera as the film was no longer being made as far as I knew. Even so, the phosphor was pretty impressive at being able to hold a signal for about 40 minutes.Rhb, mechanical engineering is something I love also. Sadly now I live in an apartment, so my forge, lathe and anvil had to go. I miss 'em.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 03:25:17 pm
content: You should get a Chinese 7" x 14" mini-lathe. That's apartment friendly. Just be aware it's really a kit which was assembled at the factory to make sure they didn't leave anything out. They have to be stripped, cleaned and scraped if you want good performance.I bought one which UPS dropped 3-4 times and smashed up pretty badly. Spanked the spindle bearings which I've yet to get replacements for. Plan is to scrape it to 0.0001" for use as an instrument maker's lathe. I boxed it up for the time being as I need to instill some order around my house and shop.There are a couple of nice milling tables for the mini-lathe, so if you go the full Brit model engineer route you can have a complete machine shop in a closet or small desk. Or mount it on an old sewing machine table.Have Fun!Reg

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 03:20:38 pm
content: Oh Reg! Now is not the time to be telling me this, I have just bought my new oscilloscope and I need a signal generator and more parts and leads in July hopefully.Too late, I am now thinking of the lathe/miller and pretty much everything else I could get like that. I had no idea the Chinese mini lathes could be scraped to make them that good - I had always dismissed the idea as still not apartment friendly and not very accurate. Maybe later this year I might be able to look into setting up a "machine cupboard" Thank you Reg, I really like the idea of that.I can't imagine getting one only to find it so badly damaged by the carrier. That must have felt really bad.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 04:52:18 pm
content: Scraping it true to 0.0001" is not trivial. It will be a serious education in metrology if you've not done something like that. Things warp from touching them. I also plan to replace the the spindle ball bearings with taper journal bearings. I'm doing it as much for the education as to have the machine. I've got a Clausing 4902 10" x 20" lathe and an 8520 6" x 24" mill in a 1530 sq ft shop which is utter chaos and barely usable as a result. Too much stuff.I got the idea from reading a Scientific American article an amateur who made the screws for John Strong's ruling engine in the late 40's. He scraped an old 13" Southbend to a tenth so he could rough out screws with lead errors of a millionth after lapping.There are of course, the Sherline products. A bit smaller, but much more accurate from the factory.A thrift store TV armoire for large CRT TVs would make a very nice living room friendly shop. With a bit of thought you could have an electronics lab and a machine shop in one. And be able to pack it all away for visitors in a few minutes.I've seen some very clever portable machine shop setups that were made by people whose work required a lot of travel. So they built a shop they could use in a hotel room.I think my timing was impeccable. If I'd mentioned it earlier you might not have bought the scope ;-)I hate to say it, but the F***Tech 60 MHz AWGs are probably your best bet for a signal generator. At low output levels they are very clean. My V 3.0 FY6600 borked itself. After many months I got a replacement front panel with V 3.1 (already out of date when I got it) which then proceeded to bork itself. I bought a Keysight 33622A ($$$!). It's really fine, but seriously expensive.Have Fun!Reg

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 05:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on June 18, 2020, 04:52:18 pmThat's impressive - a portable machine shop. I have a similar setup for MCU development that I can carry with me and to development/debugging in a hotel room (or even on a boat in the middle of water - yes, that's happened!). A little portable scope, meter, laptop, debugger, home-brew variable power supply, etc. It all fits in a backpack. Sort of "Have mini-lab, will travel."

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 05:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fred Basset on June 17, 2020, 02:21:12 pmThat must be the default demo for scopes. I certainly figured it was the easiest, most personal and direct way to see how you were interacting with what was on the screen. My father-in-law wasn't all that impressed, but I've repeated that demo many times and most people play games with their voice to change the appearance of the display. Listening to their voices contort around is entertaining all by itself!

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 07:51:09 pm
content: There was a guy where I worked who traveled a lot to Indonesia from Houston. He built full rigged ship models on the plane (pre 9/11). It was a 13 hr flight so he had two full days of building time any time he had to make the trip.You can fit a tremendous amount of stuff in a small space if you spend the time to think through the various issues.If I were working as a contract embedded systems designer, I'd have complete portable bench setup in a sort of suitcase arrangement that I could open up, lay down an ESD mat and have all my instruments and stuff ready to use. Open it to 120 degrees so it would be stable on a table.Have Fun!Reg

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 08:57:09 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on June 18, 2020, 07:51:09 pmThe challenge these days is TSA with hand tools, and occasionally soldering irons. TSA's specs say tools must be under seven inches long, but you find the occasional self-righteous TSA droid who simply "decides" your hex driver set "looks too dangerous", or your stainless tweezers are "too sharp", or whatever. Those are actual events that have happened to me. I now ship my hand tools in checked luggage, but carry the expensive tools with me in the cabin. That's often the ONLY reason I have to check a bag at all... so my hand tools don't have to go through TSA.The soldering irons are nuts too. Since many planes now have AC power available (for USB chargers and the like), they're convinced you're going to fire up your soldering iron. I also had one question my hot air desoldering tool. The supervisor absolutely wasn't going to allow it with me. Finally I asked if they allowed women to carry their hair dryers on board... *she* dropped the subject at that point.Not related to portable labs, but: The most interesting TSA incident I've had so far was when I was carrying some samples of potted electronics modules with me to a customer. They hit the scanner and the droid immediately called out "SUPERVISOR!!!" in a loud, semi-panicked voice. My bag came out of the scanner, the supervisor picked it up and looked around for its owner, and since I had my hand in the air he walked me and my bag to the even-more-intimate probing station. He went through everything, carefully, and then said I was OK. Naturally I asked what had attracted all the attention, and he said that the modules registered the same as C4 explosive on their equipment (!!!). Mind you, this was black polypropylene with two-part potting epoxy. Absolutely nothing exotic about any of it. Yet the machine interpreted it as C4 and triggered the sub-droid. Once they actually used human eyeballs it was obviously benign but it certainly livened things up in the security area that day.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 09:31:18 pm
content: Continuing off-topic:Traveling to San Francisco for work where the server room was wired for 240 V AC only. I found out only days out from the deployment that a vendor's widget was 110 V AConlyso I brought with me a 220 to 110 autotransformer in my carry-on backpack. "This your bag?" TSA asked me and then "What is that thing?". They let me on my way but I was not surprised to get a question on it.EDIT:Back on topic:Enjoying my new DS1202Z-E. I see that firmware 00.06.02.00.01 is out. I'll have to give it a shot.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 12:04:09 am
content: Quote from: duckduck on June 18, 2020, 09:31:18 pmAre they updating firmware? Whats the changelog? Weird that they wouldn't update the DS1054Z too.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 04:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 19, 2020, 12:04:09 amMore info (I'm in the USA, so sharing the US-based site):https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/EDIT:Quote from: tv84 on June 19, 2020, 05:48:11 pmApparently not.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 05:48:11 pm
content: Have you read the thread previously?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1202z-e-entry-level-scope-(200mhz-2-channel)/msg3070994/#msg3070994

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:14:39 am
content: IDEngineer, Maybe it takes a certain kind of imagination? I quickly tried to make my mouth round to try and produce as clean a sine wave as I could, then found that I still could not tell unless I made my voice less loud and lower. Suddenly I had a very rough, but recognisable sine wave triggering on the scope. I would only be able to hold it for a couple of seconds at a time, but it was magic to see it lock onto my voice. It was just one of those things that I just knew I had to get someday...Along with a metal detector (got when I was 11) and a lathe (about 30 years old, but it was only a wood lathe and I want to be able to do metal as well.)I am a nerd...can't hide it! I am actually proud to say that I have been a member of FOUR of the organizations who's magazines/newsletters have been the "guest publication" on QI episodes...

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:46:03 am
content: RHB, I have never scraped a lathe before. Done a fair old bit of engineering though. Bit limited in what I can do now thanks to ill health, so I might have to get a Sherline. The 17" length is good, but a bit of a worry about only 3 1/2" width. I will have to think about that. Still it is not likely to be this year if I go for the Sherline. With enough to get me started, maybe $2,500 including delivery and taxes? Gives me something to aim for next year though.Yes, I did spend most of last night, including a good chunk of sleeping time, watching how to upgrade and do things on youtube. I even got a question answered I had always wondered. Using a flute with three cutting edges, you can drill a square hole (no, not a joke if you have never heard of this before), but thanks to YT, I now know that it IS possible to drill any n-sided hole by using a floating flute with n-1 edges to it. I have just realised that following that equation, a round hole must actually be considered to be a one-sided hole then.OK, so maybe your timing is impeccable. Took me a week to decide between this scope and the 54, can you imagine if you had thrown the Chinese lathe at me as well? That smell of cooking would be my brain frying itself in indecision... Just think, you could stick a bit of kitchen foil to the chuck and shine a light at it. A simple detector circuit and I could use my new scope to calibrate the rpm. well, under no load condition anyway. I imagine the speed does vary if you try to remove too much material at once.Come to think of it... If you used say strips of 1/2" adhesive tape and spaced them exactly 1/2" apart (might need to wrap the chuck in a layer or two of paper to make it an exact multiple of 1/2" strips), but you should get a pretty good 50% duty cycle square wave with either a focused laser, or IR, but with a slit over the detector. Doing that might help find the roughness in the way the chuck runs?

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 10:09:29 pm
content: The DS1202Z-E arrived today.Rise time 1.386 ns avg. Overshoot 1.284% avg. But that only applies in single channel mode. With both channels operating it degrades quite a lot.FFT is completely unusable. I pretty much knew that going in, but I didn't expect it to be *worse* than my DS1102E."QuickPrint" of a screen .png file takes 30 seconds! Oh, and if you power up the scope with a USB drive installed it doesn't find it. So you have to unplug it and plug it back in. That is almost grounds for returning it. I can photograph my Tek 485 more quickly and easily.I now have an Owon XDS-2102A, Rigol DS1102E and DS1202Z-E and Instek MSO-2204EA. Everyone of them does some things well and other things abysmally badly.I'm considering taking a sledge hammer to the lot of them. So stay tuned. It will be a different thread from this one. Not sure if I'll cough for a Siglent or not to add to the comparison. A lot depends upon what that would cost. I do not need another mediocre DSO. But if I decide to spend the time on it, it will be a very thorough critique of what's wrong with each DSO.Rather hilariously, the top corner of the rise of the <40 ps step is seven 1 ns long steps in a staircase approximating an exponential. And it's every bit as crisp a staircase as the demonstration I did with the Tek 11801 & SD-24. Except in this case the pulse generator is directly feeding the DSO input through a 50 ohm thru terminator.The DS1102E does not show this behavior. It is clearly linearly interpolating between samples when in dot mode at 2 ns/div whereas the DS1202Z-E is dithering the clock which makes the steps apparent.Reg

author: ExtraClassRed
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 11:03:06 pm
content: Just so you all know. This article is the reason I ordered a ds1202z-e at TEquipment for the current special. $299 with free shipping and no tax! WOW! One of the last few posts talked about an awesome (supposedly for price) signal gen (feeltech fy6600) so I went to eBay and Amazon to get one. I read some awful reviews and it led me to a $150 one called the Koolertron 60 MHz DDS generator. Must have been meant to be because a amateur radio guy with failing health was selling one for $70 shipped on auction. 14 MINUTES LEFT! I got it! This forum is awesome! I’ve been watching some reviews from eevblog on YouTube for years. Now I find this forum!I’m a licensed amateur and have been building small kits and radio kits and messing with audio for years. I’ve never went beyond a weller soldering iron and multi meter but my radio modifications have lead me down the road I need more advanced equipment to get done what I want. Glad I found a decent blog and very helpful information here.73 for nowN0TMYI’ll be clear

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 11:30:59 pm
content: I just realized the implications of this plot:It rather blows my mind. The DS1202Z-E FW is *very* annoying, but. The steps imply a >1 GHz BW for the analog part of the AFE. And, unfortunately, a useless or non functional anti-alias filter. The display does *not* change if I turn the anti-alias filter on or off in the UI which goes a long way towards explaining why the FFT is completely unusable.What you are looking at is the charging of the DSO input transmission line which is ~ 10 cm long. This is being fed by one of Leo Bodnar's excellent <40 ps rise time BNC pulsers through a 50 ohm thru termination.You can see an example using a Tek 11801 & 20 GHz SD-24 sampling head here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/does-a-capacitor-charges-smooth-or-in-stairs/msg3092981/#msg3092981That's a <20 ps rise time square wave feeding a <17 ps rise time sampling head. Rise time for the combination is <26 ps.Have Fun!Reg

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 01:40:15 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 22, 2020, 10:09:29 pmWhat model are you considering Reg ?

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 02:18:06 am
content: SDS-1202X-E as it is the direct competitor to the DS1202Z-E and almost certainly the reason for the latter's introduction.Reg

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 03:03:30 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 23, 2020, 02:18:06 amYou might also consider investigating SDS2202X-E the 2GSa/s variant that while seemingly very similar has Bode plot and webserver.BTW, the 2kX-E model has a 350 MHz front end for the SDS2352X-E.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 05:19:34 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 22, 2020, 10:09:29 pmThis seems to depend a lot on the USB stick, although I haven't seen a definitive analysis of what makes a good/bad stick.They *can* do it in about 4 seconds when they feel like it.Or ... if you do it a lot then it's easy to grab a screen over Ethernet. No need to go via USB stick.

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 05:44:03 am
content: Reg, Could the time writing to the USB stick be caused by it having a lot of capacity and how it is formatted? Originally I know they could only read FAT32, but now has a limit of 2GB I think? So they have a different disk format enabled as well now.Devastating to read the FFT is so bad when I have not even got mine yet. It is a very significant investment for me, so I am hoping they will sort it out via an update eventually?Thanks for the heads up though.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 05:59:52 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 22, 2020, 10:09:29 pmJust a thought: You are using "memory" FFT, right? There's two settings on these things. The original FFT used on-screen data so it only has 1200 points, they added an option to do FFT from memory with 64k points that's a better FFT but slower.Quote from: Fred Basset on June 23, 2020, 05:44:03 amUnlikely at this point in the lifecycle.What are you using the FFT for? If it's anything audio then use a PC sound card instead. It's not just better than a cheap Rigol, it's better than just about any oscilloscope at any price.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 09:45:14 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 22, 2020, 10:09:29 pmA Siglent will cost at least $100 more than this Rigol. I'd be interested to see an unbiased opinion how much difference there really is. Not many people own both and getting an unbiased opinion around here is like getting blood from a stone.My gut feeling is that the Siglent will only a small step up (about $100 worth...!), not the utopia that the resident Siglent dealers would have us believe.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 10:22:46 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 23, 2020, 09:45:14 amSee it this way: the bias is good if it measures the level of knowledge they have about their equipment. Then it's up to the reader to filter or incorporate the bias.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 11:15:56 am
content: Quote from: rhb on June 22, 2020, 11:30:59 pmI'm quite bothered by the fact that the signal and trigger point are way off screen. These things are driven by opamps that are prone tro overload/recovery so that can distort the signal a LOT.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 12:24:58 pm
content: The 11801 is a sampling scope. It uses a fixed internal trigger, but most of the waveform was *way* off screen in those examples. It's clearly going to take some careful thought to sort out what is actually going on. I can reduce the amplitude of the pulser step.I set up the pulser with a tee and open cable which duplicates the internal geometry of the SD-24 fairly closely. It appears that this is related in some fashion to the way that the vertical scale is set. The steps may be quantization in the ADC related. I'll need the 7104 and 11801 to settle the matter. I can connect the SD-24 directly to the Rigol input. That will provide an unbiased TDR of the front end of the Rigol and determine whether my initial interpretation is correct.My biggest problem is my current lab space is going to have trouble accommodating all the scopes.So far as I know at present the only good FFT is the SA app of the Instek MDO-2000E which can be hacked to work on any of the GDS-2000E line. The Instek FFT is pretty good, but it doesn't provide the proper processing to produce a good result for spectrum analysis.For audio, a sound card is the best route as you can correct for all the DAC and ADC errors using Octave.For RF an RTL-SDR dongle will provide reasonable SA, though an SDRplay RSP1A or RSPdx is much better.Have Fun!Reg

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 12:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on June 23, 2020, 12:24:58 pmYep.The other day I found out you can use the Analog Discovery's software with a sound card for free. Just download the software on their website and select "Sound Card" after it starts up and says "Device not detected". I don't know about $100,000 Lecroys but the FFT is orders of magnitude better than on any 'scopeI'veseen.https://www.analogdiscovery.com/download/After playing with that for a while I've been trying to get an Analog discovery for myself but there's a massive worldwide shortage of them right now. There's none at all until the end of July and then the educational customers get priority. No chance at all for a small fish to get one.https://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-shortage/

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 01:21:35 pm
content: There's a lot more value to using WAV files and Octave. Write a program to generate a stereo WAV file which sweeps all frequencies and all amplitudes.Play the WAV file with the R & L channels feeding straight through and crossed over and record the results. A bit of algebra and you can turn the sound card into a very high accuracy distortion analyzer and audio signal source by then generating precorrected WAV files.This will let you correct all the analog errors in the inputs and outputs.Have Fun!Reg

author: CharlotteSwiss
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 06:49:32 pm
content: has anyone wondered if it is better to spend money on rigol 1202z-e, or better on siglent1202x-e? I am undecided between these two oscilloscopesthanksCharlotte

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 07:59:58 pm
content: Quote from: CharlotteSwiss on June 23, 2020, 06:49:32 pmYou'll have to wait for Reg's war. Until now nobody has done a true comparison between those 2 scopes. Although my advice would be to put more 100€ and buy Siglent SDS1104X-E. If you want to remain in the 400€ and 200MHz, you'll need to wait.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 09:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: CharlotteSwiss on June 23, 2020, 06:49:32 pmOne is more expensive so the decision is between you and you wallet.Features don't enter into the equation, they're similar value for money.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 09:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 23, 2020, 09:18:24 pmYou know that is my answer but Batronix has both for the same price.

author: CharlotteSwiss
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 09:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 23, 2020, 07:59:58 pmthen to have 4 channels I could take rigol 1054, same price. It seems that rigol1202 is based on older hardware than the siglent 1202 ... I'm waiting for the warQuote from: Fungus on June 23, 2020, 09:18:24 pmthe price is similar, indeed siglent is also less

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 11:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 23, 2020, 07:59:58 pmI thought you had hacked the SDS1104X-E to 200 MHz. Is that not correct?

author: CharlotteSwiss
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 11:18:45 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on June 23, 2020, 11:01:33 pmsds1104 costs too much, it is also wasted on me!I can settle for 2 channels less... and no hack

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 11:20:49 pm
content: FYI I just posted a poll "Scope Wars Poll" to decide which scope to test.Have Fun!Reg

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 12:37:18 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 23, 2020, 09:38:08 pmLook for the Rigol somewhere else...?https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1202Z-E/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 09:01:37 pm
content: TEquiment has the Rigol DS1202Z-E for €270 and the Rigol DS1054Z for €315 ?!?

author: CharlotteSwiss
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 09:22:24 pm
content: a few hours ago I made my order: no Rigol, I preferred sds1202x-e (I almost rolled the dice, I was also in favor of this rigol)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 09:46:28 pm
content: Quote from: CharlotteSwiss on June 24, 2020, 09:22:24 pmWar's over!! Let's go home!

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 10:03:38 pm
content: It simply found a new home

author: CharlotteSwiss
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2020, 11:15:12 pm
content: maybe he chose the wrong house, he risks some blazeThe war is all for me to follow, even if I have made my choice

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 10:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on October 06, 2019, 11:26:21 amIs it true that the Chinese regime (CCP) gives subventions to Chinese scope vendors?Does not sound like a fair trade and fair market competition (like CCP, at least officially, claims that they strive for and wants).

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 12:41:55 am
content: In English the word is "subsidy".The DS1202Z-E is not bad, but it has serious bugs. The one I found today is that the eye diagram triggering doesn't work, c.f "Scope Wars". But at least it does produce a decent FFT even if the defaults are wrong.Have Fun!Reg

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 08:56:41 pm
content: In case you are interested in the DS1202Z-E, but not following Scope Wars, you might be interested in the DS1202Z-E displaying a 1.25 GHz signal.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wars/msg3119382/#msg3119382Reg

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 03:54:12 am
content: I can't Believe I am having to ask a noob questioni already have the 06.01 firmware on my new scope and tried the update to the 06.02It is supposed to be automatically recognized right? Mine isn't.The USB is recognized, it is 8GB formatted with FAT32. I know it used to be 4GB, but now I read the limit is much higher?Exploring the USB on the scope, it recognizes it, it displays the files, but it will not "run" the DS1000Z-EUpdate.GEL file.I have that file on there and nothing else.Is it that you can use larger thumbdrives, but it will only update from a =<4GB one??? Only it looks like I would have to buy a 10 pack of no-name drives from Amazon to get one that small. The big names ae not making them that small anymore.

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 03:59:23 am
content: Oh, and talking of subsidies - I read an intersting piece last month over wht TCL TVs are so good, but so cheap. It is supposed to be because the Chinese Government are quietly subsidizing them, so you get a much better TV than you would expect for the price. If they are doing this with TVs, then it is perhaps not much of a stretch of the imagination to think they might be doing the same with other electronic products?

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 01:13:17 pm
content: I used a 16 GB drive. I installed 04.06.01, then installed 00.6.02. No problems. I created subdirectories on the drive for both updates. Copied the "04" to the top directory, did the update, deleted that GEL and copied the "00" GEL to the top directory.Good luck.Reg

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 04:38:03 am
content: Quote from: rhb on July 05, 2020, 01:13:17 pmThanks for this Reg, I will have to try again. I am probably doing something stupid (senior moment?) but I certainly could not see anything wrong at the time. I could see the file on the scope, it just refused to recognize it as an update. Mine has the 04.06.01 on it already, but the 00.06.02 is not being recognized as an update. Let me try again, make sure I have the right files and the right format on the drive. Your 16GB drive, do you remember if that was FAT32?Really Reg, thanks...being stumped by this feels too silly for words...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 07:31:25 am
content: Quote from: Fred Basset on July 07, 2020, 04:38:03 amFrom all the posts I've read the problem isn't the capacity or the format, it's something to do with the boot sector.Most formatting techniques don't touch the boot sector (even the ones that claim to do so!) so the fix isn't a couple of mouse clicks. I usually end up using command line.nb. I haven't done a definitive study on this so Imightbe wrong.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 09:35:57 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 07, 2020, 07:31:25 amNot so. Different capacities might change the "reserved sectors" in order to accomodate future info about those different sectors.I've tried in the past to systematize this issue but most people were not willing to contribute... They just want their own problem fixed quickly...I think it's alla problem of timings, bad programming and the (vendor disk) validations that Rigol usually does on the USB disks.Nonetheless, with a linux formatted drive, I thinks chances are greater because the format will be similar to the scope's "natural" programming language.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 10:46:33 am
content: Perhaps try to format it as FAT16? There was a time when Rigol's DS4000 series had a bug where FAT32 pendrives were terribly slow to access and FAT16 was the only one really functional.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 03:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fred Basset on July 07, 2020, 04:38:03 amI *think* the USB drive is still as formatted by the factory. I'll do some testing later.Reg

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 09:21:42 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 04, 2020, 12:41:55 amAhh, thanks (used the same word as Rf-loop)!Quote from: rhb on July 04, 2020, 12:41:55 amI think Chinese pure players start to have quite decent and good hardware. At least in low end and middle market.It's software that generally makes the big difference between western developed products and chinse developed products, and also support and documentation.Generally, for some strange reason, it seems to be more difficult for many companies to be good at software engineering than hardware engineering. No idea why.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 09:26:03 pm
content: [ deleted by me and moved to another thread ]

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 09:30:28 pm
content: The 16 GB flash drive I used to update the DS1202Z-E is formatted as FAT32.Reg

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 09:41:04 pm
content: Quote from: martinot on July 07, 2020, 09:26:03 pmMoved this topic about Chinese subsides to a new thread here, as this is better to discuss further outside a product related thread (want to avoid too much OT):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/chinese-government-gives-subsidies-to-rigol-(and-siglent)-for-scope-export/msg3124814/#msg3124814

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 09:20:08 am
content: Quote from: rhb on July 07, 2020, 09:30:28 pmThanks very much Reg, that narrows down possible problems a lot. If it fails again, I will have to try a different USB drive.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 01:00:05 pm
content: Here's a brief explanation of getting the DS1202Z-E FFT to work acceptably:select "math" from the "math" menuselect "FFT" in the "operator" menuturn "operation" ongo to the next menu using the bottom RH buttonselect "triangle" from the "window" menuselect "Memory" in the "mode" menupress "acquire"set "mem depth" to "12k" or longer. It has no effect on the FFT length, but "auto" is so short as to be useless.Go back to the "FFT" menu and adjust the Hz/div, center, offset and scale options. The screen shot is for a 10 MHz, 0 dBM output from an HP 8648C. Once you get something comparable, go back to all the other settings and experiment with then to see what they do. Many do not actually work, e.g. "anti-aliasing" on/off.The use of the triangle window gives the best spectral resolution as it makes an isolated frequency peak a sinc(f)**2 which has the lowest sidelobes of the options offered.If you want to save a screen shot, stop the sweep, press print and then resume the trace. Otherwise it takes a minute to save a PNG file.Have Fun!Reg

author: Fred Basset
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 08:17:51 am
content: That is MUCH appreciated Reg, and certainly counter-intuitive. Must have taken you many hours to work those out and I am grateful for the help.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2020, 03:33:11 pm
content: Drove me bonkers. And *every* time you power up the scope you have to reset *everything*.But once you know how to set it, it's fairly usable for checking harmonics from an RF oscillator though a bit shy on dynamic range as are all 8 bit DSOs. It would not prove that your transmitter was in compliance. But it beats not having anything.The sad part is that with better design it could do quite well, though I've been told that HW resources are maxed out.A lot of the issues are FW design flaws, e.g. the need to stop the scope manually to save a screen shot quickly. That *should* be automatically done by the FW when you press the "print" button.Shipping the scope without the ability to save more than 12K samples is a major gaffe. However, I've seen as bad or worse by the A list OEMs.Have Fun!Reg

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 01:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 09, 2020, 03:33:11 pmThere is a setting that changes the power on behaviour from defaults to last used - page 197 of themanual.(My DS4014 has a similar setting)

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 07:06:40 pm
content: Thanks. I searched for "power-on" rather than "power-off"Reg

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 10:20:02 pm
content: I'd be really curious of a teardown of this scope. Wonder if it still uses the HMCAD1511 like the Rigol DS1000Z.Aside from fan noise and software bugs, and the serial decode being an utter pain, the DS1000Z is a nice scope... so this might be a good entry level instrument for people who don't need quad channels.

author: martinot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 03:48:54 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 09, 2020, 03:33:11 pmI agree that seems to be quite a strange default software behaviour/setting. It is good that it is indeed possible to reset the settings, but should not need to be the default mode.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 04:57:56 pm
content: It's a good instrument as is but if Rigol open sourced the FW it would be an awesome scope in a year or so. Just give people the opportunity to fix the bugs and bad UI decisions.My biggest complaint is the static menus on both sides of the screen. The LCD is bigger than the DS1102E, but the active display area is about the same.Sigh....Reg

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 06:32:44 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 11, 2020, 04:57:56 pmThis is something that more than one person had wondered. One example where this happened is the Owon VDS1022 (USB oscilloscope), where they bundled the sources with one of their versions of the software. Some nice folks hacked the software away and fixed and added swell customizations to the interface. The benefit in this case is that the software is fully hosted on the PC, where the user base (and expertise) is much broader.Quote from: rhb on July 11, 2020, 04:57:56 pmI personally like the two side menus, although on the DS2000 and DS4000 series they collapse. I had the impression the DS1000Z series did the same.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 09:13:35 pm
content: On every other DSO I have they collapse including the Rigol DS1102E. Same thing with lots of my HP gear. But not on the DS1202Z-E.The DS1202Z-E has a 155 mm wide display, but only 115 mm of trace data.I'd love to be able to write a spectrum analyzer app that let the user set start/stop or center/span, RBW, VBW, video averaging, etc. Offer a waterfall color spectrum window, normalization. There is so much you could do that would be incredibly useful to amateur radio uses up through 6 meters on a 100 MHz version and 2 meters on the DS1202Z-E.When you look at the unpaid engineering efforts that have been devoted to the nanoVNA it's staggering. All because it was open source and people could do it without spending a lot of time trying to jail break the existing FW.Have Fun!Reg

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 03:25:53 pm
content: Here is a test of the AFE response using an HP 8648C set to 0 dBm output at steps of 50 MHz except for an added point at 25 MHz. The horizontal line is -3 dB.Have Fun!Reg

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 08:25:30 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 10, 2020, 10:20:02 pmI find it to be a good entry-level instrument. I use it for analog things. I wouldn't know what to do with another two channels.I took my DS1202Z-E apart (well, some of the way) before I turned it on. You might be able to read the writing on the chips:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-discounts/msg3019280/#msg3019280The fan on mine is not loud at all. I'm easily annoyed by fans and this one is a non-issue.

author: VSV_electron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2025, 03:56:43 pm
content: Are there any updates on DS1202Z-E ? Is DS1102Z-E 100 MHz at 1Gsa/s a more "honest" and solid instrument than DS1202Z-E 200 MHz at the same 1Gsa/s ? I've read before that the sample rate to channel bandwidth ratio should be at least 10/1. DS1102Z-E fits that requirement (I don't know how formal or strict it is though).Is seems to be logical that DS1102Z-E should be hackable up to DS1202Z-E, since the question about "any updates" (but perhaps it would be more suitable in the DS1102Z-E thread).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 07:13:26 am
content: Quote from: VSV_electron on April 05, 2025, 03:56:43 pmThat's old wisdom. New wisdom is 2.5/1.

author: VSV_electron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2025, 12:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 09, 2025, 07:13:26 amI've seen that figure in a later article, I confess. However how come the wisdom could change by 4x jump? What's the rationale?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2025, 12:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: VSV_electron on April 05, 2025, 03:56:43 pmNope, sorry. The DS1102Z-E and the DS1202Z-E have different front-end circuitry. It's not like hacking the DS1054Z from 50MHz to 100MHz.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2025, 12:17:23 pm
content: Quote from: VSV_electron on April 11, 2025, 12:03:57 pmBetter signal reconstruction math.