Can anyone still use a pencil? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 08:02:53 pm
content: Whats going on people? So few people include a diagram or schematic in their post.Great thanks to those who do.You cant do CAD or photoshop or any real work if you're stuck with a phone. But you can draw out your idea or problem on anything and take a photo to illustrate your post:A post it note (TM) To which Dave claims no patent rights. Clay tablets, wet sand before the turn of the tide, charcoal on the cave wall, a tatoo, bog roll even?Isnt drawing is an prerequisite skill for any serious endevour.Tell me why this is untrue. Again I'm asking this!The first 100000 responders can have a hand knitted 2THz oscillosope schematic. Delivered one stitch at a time via chatting.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 09:29:39 pm
content: Terry, the problem is, that you're a dinosaur... and so am I.My most important tools are A4 paper, pencil and rubber. There, I sketch out the overall structure/architecture of my idea/design.Then, I use more A4 sheets to go deeper into details on the different elements.And then (not earlier), I might think about starting up a schematic editor.Greenhorns start the simulator on the smartphone right away instead. It results in lousy designs, but who cares? It can be posted on Facebook!!!. YEEAAHH!

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 10:09:32 pm
content: I once told the lab guys I use P.C. Draw PenCil that is!!! I did most of my idea / rough drafts with pencil and paper. But then again, I still own and use a Post 1460 Versalog!!! (Wish it had the magnified cursor) Well, at least it has red, green, blue and black scales to keep me on track. I even have the belt holster!!! Of course the super nerds had a Versalog in one hip holster and a Versatrig on the other hip!! "Stick 'em up or I'll resolve that phase angle to the fourth digit!!"

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 10:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on November 13, 2021, 08:02:53 pmI don't mind a narrative explanation, generally - but from an engineer a sketch is "a thing of beauty ..."https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44469/endymion-56d2239287ca5ed for a poem

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 11:30:18 pm
content: Well, for my part, it's just slightly annoying enough to draw a schematic and post it somewhere, than to use a verbal description. Which inevitably fails as I forget how poorly understood such descriptions are...Ahah, turning this thread around from complaining about the youngins to critiquing the oldie's teaching methods!Tim

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 11:59:09 pm
content: I call my notebook of thinking paper, always in the good company of my 0.5mm pentel mechanical pencil

author: admiralk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 12:26:03 am
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on November 13, 2021, 08:02:53 pmWhen talking about a specific situation, they should.On the other hand, for a general question it is not always needed, even when it pertains to a specific use case.The phrase "Can't see the forest through the trees" comes to mind.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 12:54:04 am
content: I too will use a pencil and paper before I'll ever sketch something out on a electronic device. :puke:

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 01:01:52 am
content: Virtually all my initial design and lab modification work is done pencil and paper. But in spite of gradual improvement over six decades of practice my drawing skills are so poor that those initial drawings and analysis are rarely comprehensible to those around me.CAD tools have been a tremendous gift to those who need to understand my work.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 01:42:48 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 13, 2021, 11:30:18 pmDitto, if I don't do it, it's usually out of lazyness! And yes that sometimes ends up failing, as a clear schematic is often easier to understand for anyone else than ourselves than a written description.As to using a pencil specifically, I think unfortunately, many of us tend to use handwriting/drawing less and less in favor of computer tools. I've a lot more often launched LTspice or similar to draw a quick schematic and share it than drawing with a pen and scanning it...But for work, I still usually prefer hand drawing first.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 02:27:34 am
content: Quote from: rvalente on November 13, 2021, 11:59:09 pmHeretic! The only proper writing device under those circumstances is a 2B, or possibly a B, cedarwood pencil, preferably a Staedler Lumograph.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 02:35:57 am
content: Young people seem to not quite grasp the concept that the information inside their head is not visible outside their head, it can take a lot of work to get information out of them.I really don't know why that is. I'm sure I we weren't like that in the good old days. Were we?Have I become my grandfather, "kids these days". Next I'll be complaining about their loud music and helter skelter ways.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 02:56:07 am
content: After over 40 years of sterling service im looking for a suitable replacement for fag cad.it was always to hand,fitted in your pocket and also doubled up as an emergency container for small parts.Unfortunately the cost of ownership has priced it out of the market.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 03:07:14 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on November 14, 2021, 02:56:07 amFag CAD has been no good since the disappearance of Senior Service, Woodbine, and Capstan Full Strength. Good aspect ratio, plenty of white space and no coating, foil or other muck to get in the way of making a good pencil impression. Their disappearance was the end of Fad CAD. Still it's not as bad of the disappearance of the 80 column Hollerith CAD device/shopping list/bookmark.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 05:44:06 am
content: People do still use pencils. And pens. And rulers and even things like templates and other manual drawing aids. And paper is everywhere.It is not the pencil and paper or the sketching process that is neglected. Once a pencil sketch has been made, it then must be either scanned or photographed to include it in a post. Yes, many of us have cell phones with great cameras. But that does not mean that those cell phones are being used to post. I find it a lot easier and faster to use a real keyboard instead of those tiny, tiny ones on a cell phone. And my keyboard does not have a camera.As for scanning, I do have a scanner in my printer. It is about two feet to my left. And it almost always has a stack of papers and other objects on the cover that must be moved if I am going to scan anything. Too much like work. The makers of that printer did include a feed slot for scans, but it too is covered by that stack of papers, etc.When I do decide to include a sketch, I open either a CAD program or a drawing program, like Paint or Paint.net.I think this is more like the real reason why you do not see many sketches.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 05:54:52 am
content: All right, I give up. What is FAG CAD?When I try to search for it, I keep getting a site that wants me to accept cookies. No way.Quote from: themadhippy on November 14, 2021, 02:56:07 am

author: gcewing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 06:15:28 am
content: What we really want is drawing tools built into the forum post editor. I don't understand why that hasn't happened yet.

author: gcewing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 06:18:03 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on November 14, 2021, 05:54:52 amSpeakers of American may have a bit of a language problem with this. Hint: To a British person, fag = cigarette.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 09:42:23 am
content: Quote from: gcewing on November 14, 2021, 06:15:28 amFor the same reason why we type our responses in a box, instead of as a WYSIWYG post.It has nothing to do with technical capabilities or possibilities, and everything to do with what and how humans are.Right now, I myself have three sketchpads lying around. They get filled with ideas and stuff quite fast. Nice pens or pencils are a must.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 09:52:37 am
content: As a CAD wonk my workstation still has my rough notes/workbook/shopping book. Then my slightly more formal project pad and an isometric graph book are within arms reach along with an assortment of Pencils.When I have that idea roughed out to a concept that my mind can see a path forward then its off to CAD as with practice it is faster to then see if the bits fit together than a properly/accurately scaled drawing.Even if I had a digital sketchpad unlikely I would lose the paper from my workflow.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 10:58:41 am
content: I haven't used pencils in so long that it's a search when I need one for carpentry.Dollar store notebooks and a Pilot gel ink pen are my thinking instrument.Despite being an Android/ebook/desktop/CAD fan I don't see these notebooks ever being supplanted.I try to remember to write a title on the top of the page so when I look back I have some idea what I was writing about.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 11:38:04 am
content: Now, gel ink pen on aquarelle/watercolor paper, that'sluxury.I've mentioned before that on the pencil sketches and notes I make, the paper is more likecachefor my mind. After I've found a solution/design, I make a cleaned up version (often on the computer, using Inkscape, Dia, or EasyEDA). (I don't waste the paper much, though: I often use whatever small area is still free of scribblings for smaller details.)For similar reasons why the Rubber Duck method helps software developers, the sketching helps me design and understand algorithms and complex structures and interconnected systems.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 03:38:55 pm
content: ink pen and a 2 buck sketchbook from the super market are doing fine service to take notes; but most of the time I just build out of my head from my mental chalkboardI hate doing schematics on the computer, no patience for that, so I'd rather take a pic with the phone from my hand drawn schematics than doing so fully digitally.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 04:05:40 pm
content: For me, it's one of those small A3-ish sized whiteboards intended for household use along with a set of Sharpie-sized fine point markers. Great for quick sketching or jotting down ideas, notes, values, dimensions etc and anything needing "saving" gets snapped with the phone camera.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 05:29:59 pm
content: QuoteThe grandfather of dave cad and the father of napkin cad, using you fag (cigarette)packet to scribal down ideas or brief notes

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 11:44:12 pm
content: Quote from: nali on November 14, 2021, 04:05:40 pmDamned good idea! I'm going shopping for a whiteboard and markers right away.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 01:17:17 am
content: I have been using a mechanical pencil on paper for drawing schematics, but as of last year, I got a tablet with pen input and have been using it for schematic drawing. Working directly in digital makes it trivial to back up.What I really would like to see is an AI enhanced schematic drawing app for Android that can translate sketched symbols into computer drawn symbols by tapping the pen button.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 07:26:03 am
content: Bonjour a tous...With a pencil and paper you can invent and design anything.Tesla (NOT THE CAR!) Steinmetz, Teller used pencil and paper or a blackboard.No internet, no computer or mobile and EMC/EMP/blackout proof.This EE has drawn schematics, blocks and mechanical layouts since 1960s In Freshman year at CCNYI recall the Mechanical Drawing course with text French and Vierik.I prefer a #2H mechanical pencil and velum or mylar with 0.10 " grid.I still have work done in 1950s...Anyone able to view a 1980s Orcad or Gerber anymore?Here is a B sized rather sloppy schematic, from my IEEE Spectrum February 2019 article on SIGSALY ADC reconstruction.https://spectrum.ieee.org/rebuilding-a-piece-of-the-first-digital-voice-scramblerhttps://spectrum.ieee.org/sigsaly-analogtodigital-converter-construction-and-debuggingYour comments and feedback appreciated!Bon soiree,Jon

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 03:07:31 pm
content: Quadrille paper and #2 pencils here.I used to have pads and pads of letter-size Ampad green "engineering" paper but ran out and it's kinda expensive so I just use the standard quadrille paper notebooks I can get at Target for a buck apiece.Anything that needs to be shared with others gets scanned (we have one of those nice copier/scanner things at the office) and edited as needed.I tried to get my son interested in using the quad paper for his math but he says he's fine with using a standard college-ruled notebook. He does honors geometry as a 7th grader, so whatever works for him is best.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 04:02:38 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 14, 2021, 01:42:48 amYeah, and as much as I expect this will elicit a lot of 'uphill both ways in the snow' reactions, the fact that the forum software doesn't support modern methods of attaching images is a big part of this. The fact that I have to create the image and save it some where, then use the clunky interface here to find and upload that file, maybe resize it if it's too big, then take a couple of extra steps to inline it into the message how I want (if that feature even decides to work properly today, or I have to post the message and then go back and edit it if not) makes it enough of an annoyance that I'm not nearly as likely to go to the trouble. I know it's not that much work in the scheme of things, but if I'm already freely giving some of my time to try to help someone with a problem I might not want to take the time, especially if I'm trying to bash out a reply on my lunch break or something. If I'm *asking* for help, then yeah, I'll absolutely take the time to add images to help make it easier for people to help me, but it's still an annoying process.On many other platforms, adding an image is as simple as pasting the image from the clipboard into the message editing window, it gets resized automatically if necessary, and it's easy to make sure the formatting is sensible because the editor shows me how it's going to look as I'm writing the message. If we had kind of functionality that here, I'd absolutely be more likely to include images. I think Stack Exchange does a really good job with this, since the whole model of that network is substantive engagement they've done a ton of work to make sure the whole user experience supports that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 04:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 15, 2021, 01:17:17 amI've tried that but I'm no good with this setup. Maybe I haven't given it enough time, or maybe I haven't tried the right tablet. But what I get really looks terrible compared to what I can do with a real pen and paper. So I certainly don't bother.If I want a nicely drawn, reusable schematic, I'll use a schematic editor. If a hand-drawn schematic is OK and I want to store it digitally, I'll just draw it on paper and scan it.But to each their own!

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 05:18:42 pm
content: Yes and no.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 05:34:35 pm
content: My suspicion is that people who dont draw probably aren't experienced in working as team an overly paranoid about thier pet prroject leaking out. So many DARPA folks on this forum.Where do I buy this or where do I find out about X is fine by me, but when asking why your circuit doesnt work.. well we cant read minds. Actually I can but thats another shape shifted homeopathic over unity alternative fact paradigm, with magnets on! By dinosuar I assume you mean having a work ethic, working to a plan- not a making notion- and being able to spot BS a mile off then yes I am.I also think it very thoughless towards members who are not first language english not add graphics. It smacks of exclusion.While I'm at it. Guys stop embarasing yourselves by all piling in when you think its post from a female- full on dinosaur behaviour there.Then they're the strops who agressively tell you that you haven't understood OPs message- not "what I think OP is saying is..". Thats for OP, not the agressive bit obviously.Recently I read the phrase "your circuit is rubbish" . Its ok to mutter that to yourself in a darkened room I think and I often do. Even I can be wrong if I like. I am a sarcastic cynic but im not out to stick it to 'em, just a light earlobe flick.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on November 15, 2021, 05:34:35 pmAre we to take it that you're including yourself in "not first language english"(sic)?C'mon man, you're letting the side down. There are native German, French, Swedish, Finnish and even Pashto speakers on here who would have made a better job of that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:27:02 pm
content: I find most Terry Bites posts entertaining. Certainly has a unique style.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on November 15, 2021, 05:34:35 pmWhich one (member or post) are you referring to as from a female?I can't tell from the poster names, and I know both males and females named Terry. I guess some could be either; I don't care. Same for the other poster names.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 15, 2021, 06:39:36 pmI assume it's in reference to the "best oscilloscope for a woman" thread, which, a lot of replies have that kind of smell to them...The irony is, I think -- many of those who behave in such ways, probably don't realize about half their..."quarry", as it were, are something they very likely also have strong opinions about: trans women.That is -- at least, to the best of my admittedly limited knowledge -- pretty sure I've met more trans women, in my career or related fields, than in everyday life. (One major exception being my half-sister, in fact -- though she also works in a scientific field. Not surprising, science just about runs in the family, heh.)This really is such a male-dominated field, that the few women present, are on the edge of the bell curve -- that is, from a diversity of personalities, orientations, etc. It definitely pays, not to make assumptions, or presumptions -- and most of all, just treat people like, well...people!Also, probably half of women in this field are lesbian too, so, romantically unavailable to men anyway, whether or not they might make anatomical complaints too. This is not a good career to find a mate in.(At least, for cis males. Gays might well find relative success?)Tim

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 12:08:39 am
content: @Teslacoil:Are you serious?This was a thoughtful and entertaining thread about how to generate designs on paper or elsewhere (that actually should belong in "Chat"), and now?It's suddenly about LGBQYXTZUYW... whatever. For no reason at all that I see.Your technical posts are great and well thought through, but this? Wrong Forum!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 12:55:30 am
content: No reason? I mean, the context is as quoted; you're welcome to ignore the diversion.Tim

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 02:06:55 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 15, 2021, 04:47:42 pmWhat tablet is it? I'm using a Galaxy Tab S7. I got it instead of the much cheaper Galaxy Tab S6 Lite largely because the reviews say that the better pen input on the S7 is worth it. It's also more "futureproof" with the better specs and supports some extra features like HDMI over USB-C.I would say the biggest advice with any pen tablet is to make use of the things that paper can't do, namely zooming into the area being worked on and one tap undo if something doesn't turn out well.

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:17:32 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 16, 2021, 02:06:55 amI wanted to have a new ebook/document reader, so I went for shopping one. A friend of mine was using Galaxy Tab S4 for taking study notes etc. so I kind of knew already that its pen was pretty good and S4 would be suitable for note taking. After reading some reviews of Galaxy Tab S6 Lite I decided to go for it as the price was alright. For ebook/document reading, and web surfing, S6 Lite works as expected. Also, its pen is suitable for taking hand-written notes and making quick&dirty sketches for schematic and block diagrams.Like NiHaoMike said, editing facilities of this modern pencil&paper is quite superior compared to the traditional medium. Zooming and editing (moving things around the sheet, correcting errors etc.) works really well. Feeling of pen during writing and drawing is quite similar to writing onto traditional deadtree paper. Handwriting recognition works pretty well too, as long as I concentrate a bit more to my writing. I can read my poor handwriting easily, and I only rarely want to change my notes into a text anyways.I am still making transition from pencil&paper, and I find myself using traditional pencil&paper way too often. Converting 100% to this modern paper substitute will take some time. But for me, there is no substitute for a pencil, whether a traditional or a modern one.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:02:11 am
content: Id say paper is nice for quick doodles, but not any proper design documentation.I use it for helping my thought process to draw out just the relevant part of the circuit and scribble around it to figure out the right values, or find minimal bodge modification needed to make it work, a bit of quick math next to it for a resistor value etc. Sometimes i also draw timing diagrams to figure out the needed sequence of events in a digital circuit or FPGA. Sometimes i have a geometry related problem and drawing it out helps think about it. All of this stretching looks pretty messy since its done in just quickly with the minimum required detail.But none of this actually becomes documentation for a project. Eventually if a circuit or diagram becomes significant then it gets redrawn in a nice clean understandable form digitally. Sometimes it might be just so i can simulate it in LTSpice, other times it might be useful to keep in a clear form in the project folder, or sometimes i want to turn it into a PCB(so i need to draw it in CAD anyway)We do have a large whiteboard at work and we use it quite a bit. It's used more when you want to explain a circuit to someone, or want to have some other people comment on it. Its easier to have 2 or 3 people stand around it and look at it when its large and on a wall. We also save any useful drawings off that by taking a photo with a phone. There are some more whiteboards around but the programmers seam to use it more as artistic expression that then stays on the board for 2 years until its so dried on that you need paint thinner to get it off.

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:46:44 am
content: With regard to T3sl4co1l's post, in a thread about good communication of technical ideas, whilst a sidestep of philosophy, I can't see it being remotely OT: it doesn't take much to see that there are definitely modes to a human brain where clarity of communication is compromised, internet forums for whatever reason tend to bring out those modes. For what it counts, I was glad to see such a message.It's definitely not an excuse nowadays to say it's difficult to scribble something down and get it onto a computer or phone, laziness or being unwilling - both totally valid excuses!Professionally though, (I'm a big fan of pen and paper sketches, but), it's such a PITA to have a mixed pen-paper, Matlab, Excel, Word and EDA workflow, when everything needs to be documented and controlled etc. I don't like the idea that paper is dying out, but as natural as scribbling a diagram on a piece of paper is to (most?) engineers and is the more pure-thinking (about electronics, not trying to tame the CAD package) approach... is the same true for those who's first circuit diagrams were drawn in CAD?

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 09:47:54 am
content: Quote from: penfold on November 16, 2021, 08:46:44 amI have found out that for me drafting something with a pencil & paper is much faster and more productive than using a word processor or EDA tools when trying to capture the initial concepts and ideas for a system to be created.Mixing paper with digital documents is not recommended or practical, as you and others have already pointed out. However, sketching some early ideas and pieces of schematic blocks onto a  paper is ok. Even sharing those early sketches over email or other means is a fast way to explain something to a colleague. Another good thing about the digital paper is that you do not lose those papers that easily, you can keep things organized more easily, and you can have those sketches with you without carrying heaps of papers. You can also backup and version control those digital sketches. After capturing these initial ideas to a  paper it is time to convert those sketches to proper documentation and EDA schematics. With a digital paper it is easy to store those early drafts and ideas along with the official documentation. Even a handwritten documentation is better than no documentation at all.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 02:35:33 pm
content: QuoteWow, are the kids playing on your lawn again with all them newfangled eyephones and facebooks?To the topic:Yeah, some people of all ages have a weird workflow, whether it's people who are new to a complex trade/hobby or people who have problems using computers in general. It takes time to learn what etiquette is expected on technical forums.Sometimes an explanatory picture is not required and if it is it might be more convenient not to use a pencil but rather a convenient tool, whether it's some phone based toy tool, LTSpice, Kicad, Inkscape, GIMP or whatever. For me it's easier to draw it in LTSpice rather than take a photo of a piece of paper generally.But yeah, let's just complain about people using general purpose devices for various purposes.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 03:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 15, 2021, 11:40:45 pmOh. But not only is that one a completely different thread; it is a thread on a different sub-board; and that thread is an old one with last post over four months ago. So what the heck? What is the point of asking members not even in that thread to stop "embarasing" themselves "by all piling in" there over four months ago?Did somebody invent a time machine and not tell me?I can't figure this out. If you want to point out bad behaviour, do point it out! But don't drag those of us that don't have anything to do with that shit into the muck, too: that's just as shitty behaviour.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 04:49:58 pm
content: Again, making some assumptions about what Terry meant there, but I don't think it was meant about this thread; more generally. Anyway, you never know who's reading a thread, maybe the comment will reach some of its target audience after all.*And if it was in regards to older threads (like that one), it's not so much whether particular offenses were committed, but whether that kind of behavior is persistent. And it absolutely is. I've seen plenty of people both online and IRL with those traits, and I'm sure others of you have as well.*Though I would disagree with the comment for a different reason: the psychology at work there, generally prevents one from seeing the consequences of ones' actions, therefore no one reading it will think it's actually talking about them.For sure, call it out when it happens; immediate correction is the only meaningful solution, you can't just speak generally and expect it to have any effect. The responsibility is on everyone else, to spot those negative comments, and for the victims to report negativity -- and, most importantly of all, for everyone else to believe and support the victim.As for topicality, I suspect Terry made this thread to just kind of vent about whatever, so I'm not feeling any particular duty to keep it about pencils, or much of anything else.This is OP-sanctioned thread drift, at least, that's my interpretation.Tim

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 16, 2021, 04:49:58 pmExactly. If I make an error, it is not sufficient to tell me I made an error; I need specifics. "You know what it was" is not helpful.Decades ago, I worked for a bit as an IT support person. I had spend a lot of extra time and effort to keep downtime to a minimum. The most annoying problem report I ever got was a post-it note on the door of a classroom with over a dozen machines: "One of the machines is broken. Please fix ASAP."That kind of a bug report is evil. It is like finding a void in a haystack. It would take a lot of time and effort to go through every machine one by one, every feature/application one by one, to try and find out if a problem actually exists. Or it could just be a juvenile prank.Dinosaurisms aren't evil, they're anachronistic bugs in interpersonal communications that can, at least in theory, be fixed. Treat them as such.The reason I do not consider pencils dinosaurisms/anachronistic, is that there is a surprising amount of tactile feedback and visual resolution there that we cannot quite reach yet with digital devices. It's quick, nonvolatile, and efficient. Gel ink pen contrast is superb, and using it on top of pencil allows removing some of the pencil marks with careful eraser use. But when I have the sketch outlined or I get a mental picture of what it should look like, I do like to do an electronic, cleaned-up version, for reference use (if there is any).For example, here is a diagram of when a spherical cap will tip over:The marked point is the center of mass, and Ω is the solid angle from center of mass to contact point when the hemisphere would tip, and therefore the ratio of Ω to 4π describes the probability that the shape dropping so slowly it does not bounce, to a flat horizontal surface with zero angular velocity in an uniform random orientation, will end up tipping face flat on the surface. This I sketched first on paper, and this is the archival version (with accompanying text and description omitted). It's an SVG file, so infinitely scalable, and only 2k in size.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:32:39 pm
content: My brain is possibly more artistically-inclined than it is scientifically-inclined, so drawing/sketching is natural to me. But, I still reserve hand drawings for particular occasions:1. Quickly explaining waveforms, circuit operation, system interaction (etc.) with colleagues - I can quickly sketch anything I want on some grid paper. Even though I am very well versed in vector graphics software (and the like), it still usually will take me...5x (?) as long to draw it in a computer.2. Initial ideation/conceptual development phase. Once again, this is related to time. For something not set in stone, there's no sense is spending so much time making it look perfect on a computer. I may sketch a small sub-circuit by hand just to think it through, but I'm never going to draw a full schematic by hand.And, the smartphone scanner apps are great, removing distortion (keystoning, etc.), noise reduction, removing gridlines, etc.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:45:32 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on November 13, 2021, 08:02:53 pmIn the modern world people can't even produce readable hand writing, much less more involved sketches.QuoteThe interesting thin in my life, think a person 61 years of age, was that out high school offered a mechanical drawing class. That meant using real drafting machines, if people can even remember what those are. Sadly never really saw a drafting machine in use after leaving high school. However I really believe that manually doing drawings like that do wonders for brain development. It has left me with a life long ability to sketch freehand that the young people today don't seem to even have the same ability.QuoteYou forgot Birch bark.On a more serious note, in the field it is often whatever is laying about. In the allied trade machinist often rely upon sharpy on a Kurt vise. These quick drawings are usually for one of two things. One is to put information into a physical form. The other is to explore a design or concept.QuoteYou would think but even with advanced electronic CAD tools it doesn't mean that the person making a drawing, can draw something that actually conveys an idea correctly. This includes mechanical and electrical drawings that require people to go back to the engineer and ask "what do you mean here". In a nut shell there is a huge array of professionals that can't draw decent plans.QuoteI really don't think modern education practice instills in young people, at an early enough age, the ability to think abstractly and put those thoughts to paper. This is one reason why I really believe that we need to have "art like" and "trades related" classes early in the educational process. The goal of such classes should be to develop the ability to handle abstract thinking and the translation of such to paper.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 16, 2021, 05:27:32 pmExcuse me but I just have to call out the smoothness of this segue.For my part, I'm rather fond of the Sharpie fine pens. This kind I think?https://www.sharpie.com/pens/felt-tip-pens/sharpie-pens-medium-point-0.8mm/SAP_1783834.htmlY'know, there's three different numbers (two plain numbers and the UPC) on the box and I don't think either of them is the actual part number... so, that's cool... these are probably it, tho.Anyway, they're no-mess, it's kind of a greasy ink so it's not usable anywhere it's not a permanent marker, and it hardly bleeds in paper. Lasts pretty long too, and runs out slowly (giving a weaker line, so, just draw slower and it still works, until you're too impatient and toss it out).I've used surprisingly few pencils in my life, which is probably not the best idea as the various scribbles on my notes can attest to, but oh well. Paper's cheap, just keep redrawing it until it's right.Tim

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 16, 2021, 05:27:32 pmExactly. Until we design something as good in digital form, the comparison will always pale.As to distributing drawings in digital form, I wish bitmap images were banned FOREVER.Seriously, they suck. Use them for photographs. Not for drawings.SVG is now supported by all web browsers, a number of applications, Inkscape is free. Use it as an output format when it's available!(As to "converting" a scanned drawing to SVG, there are apps for that too. But I don't know of a good, open-source one. Is there any?)

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:10:55 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on November 16, 2021, 05:45:32 pmThis is a good observation, though nothing really new or earth shattering. Generally, I think education has become way too "noisy" (i.e. too many buzzwords, ass-backward performance metrics, and way too much focus on testing to get into the best college etc.) One of the primary outcomes of education should be to produce curious kids with an interest in learning! All these other things are just distractions, and are really a disservice to students in the end.Similarly, I find it weird that (these days) there is a notion that art and science are mutually exclusive. Either you are an "art person" or you are a "science person" but you cannot be both. So silly.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:23:50 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on November 16, 2021, 07:10:55 pmI think education has almost always served, in history, as a selection tool, more so than as something to give everyone a fair chance and make people "learners" - which ultimately is, making them more autonomous. The latter, maybe we have seen that in most of the 20th century. That was more the exception than the norm IMO. Looks like we're getting back to the good old selection. So, it's not about making you a better version of yourself, but more about making you "better" than the masses.Quote from: TimNJ on November 16, 2021, 07:10:55 pmTrue. And even exclusively in tech: engineering itself is not only about science. It always has a part of it which is "art", in its general sense.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 16, 2021, 07:07:16 pmDo you consider Inkscape's ownPath>Trace Bitmap"good"?To test, one can import an image, then select that image, andPath>Trace Bitmap. TheLive Previewuses a blocky version of the results, and is fast, and thus can be useful in fine-tuning the parameters; but theLive Previewis not nearly as high fidelity as the results are.I don't know how useful that is in practice for scanned line drawings, because like I said, I re-draw the diagrams etc. from scratch, typically in Inkscape or Dia. Sometimes (isometric 3D views etc) I use a script or a program to generate the SVG. And I like to fine-tune them by hand, omitting the SVG width and height attributes, leaving only the viewBox attribute, so that the SVG will fill whatever region it is displayed in.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 16, 2021, 07:35:51 pmWell, I don't know. Last time I tried, it was disappointing, but that was a while ago. I'll give it a shot again.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on November 16, 2021, 07:10:55 pmWonderful comment.The highest praise I will award someone is "Renaissance Man", which are both.And now I await the shitstorm for not including the LGBTXYZQPRSÆØÅ community. And non-binary and woke.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 09:10:41 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on November 16, 2021, 08:55:11 pmThanks...but I really have no idea how my comment relates to LGBTQ people or gender identity.My comment is mainly on the system which puts so much emphasis on having a "successful" career, that anything that does not directly (or obviously) pertain to the career is regarded as a waste of time.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 09:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on November 16, 2021, 09:10:41 pmSimply because I used the term "RenaissanceMan" which is a nono these days. It has nothing to do with you, sorry.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 09:36:20 pm
content: I mean, "Renaissance Person" is as easy to type, and more general; but I don't get the disproportionate response, here and up-thread. Is there something you'd like to talk about?Tim

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 10:12:29 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 16, 2021, 09:36:20 pmNah, it's all a bit "tongue in cheek" concerning the strangeness of the world today. But humour/irony/sarcasm doesn't come over well in a written form like this forum.I'll stick to being technical in the future. But honestly, you started it. Just sayin'.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 06:33:38 pm
content: Manual what.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 12:00:55 pm
content: Megger.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 05:43:44 pm
content: yes, whenever something goes wrong, and it always does, I flat out do not care what technology works. I have scraped words into a chassis with pliers before to label it. Having a pencil around is like immediately being able to fall back into the 1500's when problems occur rather then going into the stone age. Its like a fall arrestor.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 06:17:57 am
content: Sheets of paper with pencil on don’t have a battery that dies technology that goes outdated, firmware to corrupt and they’re not waterPROOF, but will still be usable when dried out. Also, archaeologists won’t dig up your crappy tablet and read the schematics from it in 200 years. Also related - you can’t dig out a pile of JPEGs from a shoe box and thumb through them sentimentally.Computing has its place, but it’s place is not to REplace what came before it. If fails miserably at trying to be an analogue of older, SIMPLE, uncomplicated implements.The problem with the digital age is that people are like a kid with a new hammer, and everything is suddenly a nail. “Just because we can” is a crap reason to do things.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 02:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on November 16, 2021, 07:10:55 pmYes!Many of the most used techniques in industrial manufacturing have their genesis in Sculptor's endeavours to construct very large bronze statues. (My Father was an Engineering Patternmaker by trade, & a sculptor by vocation.)Principles of harmonic motion, & Fourier analysis, grew out of musical instrument technology.The old tuning fork, so beloved of piano tuners & voice teachers, was the first type of frequency stable reference used, when such a thing was desired in early Electronics.