Laminator recommendation needed for PCB transfer method. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: castingflame
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 09:13:03 pm
content: I am in need of a laminator to replace my Peak to create homemade PCBs using the transfer method. The Peak 332 keeps tripping the circuit breaker when the heater is turned on. I can not find a schematic for it. Nothing seemed dead short on the heater side but I really had little idea what to look for.A3 would be great but A4 will also be considered. I dont have a fortune to spend so £100 would be the max.I use the shiny yellow PCB transfer paper you see on eBay and AliExpress. I am unsure what the temperature will need to be so advice on this is welcome.Thanks in advance for any help.Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 09:26:37 pm
content: I used to use a laminator for dry film solder mask. It's GBC H220 which I remember getting because it takes PCBs ok and you could swap some gears to speed it up.I hardly used it and don't use it now, so if you can't find an A3 one, make me an offer.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 01:08:01 am
content: I abandoned the toner transfer method for a far more accurate dry film method but I still use the same laminator as before .A Fellows Saturn 3i 125 because it was cheap.With a few modifications (trimming some of the plastic ) to allow thicker PCB to be passed though. At full power it still takes 3 passes to properly adhere the dry film.Needs around 200 degrees C to adhere.For double sided PCBs laminate both sides prior to exposure.and I use guide pins through the PCB at the corners of the negatives to accurately line up the front and back artwork. 5 minutes of UV exposure for each side works for me.The process takes a little longer but well worth it for the better resolution traces.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 01:20:49 am
content: I use the Tahsin SM-330. I do not recall the process details of determining that this is the RIGHT one to use but I did a lot of research. It has performed well for me.I made a PCB yesterday, in fact. Some say "blah blah blah" about doing your own PCB. Fine, I send out for PCBs as well. There is a certain satisfaction derived from doing one at home. I was confronted with a problem to solve this week...where I had an application note with a single-sided PCB image given in the note. I needed to build the circuit to meet my client's request. So, homebrew PCB was the perfect solution.I do not make them often, but if I need something really quick and it is simple...then homebrew is always in my back pocket.editI also use thinner pcb material to run through this machine...28mil (~0.71 mm)...I dont know what the official spec for the thickness is...this is what I measure. Easier on the rollers.a-nudder editI use the shiny yellow stuff too. I print with an HP P1102 printer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 01:28:37 am
content: Quote from: castingflame on March 21, 2019, 09:13:03 pmFirst swap out the MCB for a known good one as they do degrade over time after some trips.If it's an RCD type MCB then you should check for some earth leakage issue.I use a Rexel laminator, 2 passes with the PCB and transfer in the Rexel carrier sleeve. No mods required.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 07:14:34 am
content: Just a thought.I've tried various commercial transfer papers ,even the yellow stuff like yours.But by far the best and cheapest was the backing used on adhesive vinyl signs.I was getting it for free from a local sign maker since they just throw it away.The only difficulty was that some of it had plastic on both sides and needed a piece of paper over it to prevent sticking to the rollers.But for toner transfer it worked the best.I even started with just a clothing iron before the laminator.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 01:39:59 pm
content: Quote from: Jwillis on March 22, 2019, 07:14:34 amTransfer foil also improves coverage of the toner (tiny pits and things). I buy it off Ebay from art'sy sellers

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 02:36:35 pm
content: While on the topic...what is the most environmentally friendly way to discard spent ferric chloride? Currently, I just put it in a plastic bottle until I come up with a good plan. I use very little.

author: castingflame
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 07:24:51 pm
content: Thanks everyone for your answers. I have found a PEAK332 Laminator (Dead) on Ebay for £17 delivered! , so I'm going to see if I can make a good one out of the two. Seemed a sensible thing to try. If not I'll go with one suggested.Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 09:55:22 pm
content: Quote from: castingflame on March 22, 2019, 07:24:51 pmTo make it safe for disposal, you can add sodium carbonate (washing soda) or sodium hydroxide.if your really concerned get some pH indicator and add sodium carbonate until you get a pH 7

author: LateLesley
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 10:13:08 pm
content: @Wimberleytech,The trick is not to use ferric chloride. A friend put me on to an idea of reuseable etching solution. I just googled an article for you, but you may find some more if you look.https://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/As for disposal of used etchant, I can't help on that front, being unfamiliar with waste disposal systems/laws in america. Here in the UK we'd contact our local council for disposal advice. Maybe you have a similar thing at state level??

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 10:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: LateLesley on March 22, 2019, 10:13:08 pmThanks. I have muriatic acid and it has been on my list to try. I have used vinegar and hydrogen perozxide as well...but it is slooooooow. Right now, I dont have a good location for the muriatic acid technique where other tools can remain free from contamination.I do so few boards...only in an emergency.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2019, 10:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: Wimberleytech on March 22, 2019, 10:24:30 pmBased on the Instructable webpage I too went down the track of changing to Cupric Chloride and offer a little doc containing info sourced online and some notes of materials used and their initial interactions.Take care with this brew until you have it converted to a decent Cupric Chloride brew.Do some searches in the forum as there's plenty of info available on etching with muriatic mixes and Cupric Chloride.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2019, 03:33:39 am
content: Ferric Chloride is to hard to get around here and to hard to get rid of.2 parts 3% Hydrogen Peroxide to 1 part 31.45% Muratic ( Hydrochloric ) Acid. 2:1 ratio is much faster than the 3:1 ratio .Always pour acid into base.For 1 oz boards its about 10- to 20 min and 2 oz boards can take about an hour.The reaction with copper creates Cupric Chloride (Copper(II) chloride)and Cuprous Chloride (Copper(I)Chloride). This will appear as a green color in solution and in dry crystal .Cupic Chloride is soluble in water and turns blue in solution.Cuprous Chloride is not very soluble in water and appears as white crystals . Both can be separated by pouring concentrated solution or green dry crystal into water and left until Cupric Chloride crystals precipitate to the bottom. The blue Cupric Chloride solution can be use for copper electroplating.Or recover the copper by reducing the solution and adding aluminum.This will create an exothermic reaction so be careful i,it's going to get hot .The Cuprous Chloride can be used as a fugicide.

author: castingflame
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2019, 04:26:47 pm
content: Well the good news is that my £17 (faulty) Ebay laminator was repaired with the heater switch from my old unit and a new fuse. Happy days. It makes a change that I get lucky!Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2019, 07:11:40 pm
content: Quote from: LateLesley on March 22, 2019, 10:13:08 pmThis gets brought up again and again. I've no idea why though. If you look a little closer you'll find that this "better etchant" is far nastier then Ferric Chloride.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 02:16:07 am
content: QuoteIf you are truly using cupric chloride, it is no nastier than ferric chloride. No more acidic, no more corrosive, no more environmentally bad, and the stains are far less to deal with. In a permanent setup, is convenient because you never have to change out the etchant when it gets old/spent. You just remove a tiny bit of it and add a bit of acid every now and again.The problem with this page is the way he presents it leads a lot of people to assume HCl and peroxide IS the same things as cupric chloride, and you just reuse it over and over even though it gets slower, just to be environmentally friendly. He doesn't state this, exactly. But they way he presents it, some people get this impression. To the tune that someone mixed up several gallons of 3 percent peroxide and muriatic, just for making one board, and thinking it is a good etchant to begin with, and assuming it will inevitably work forever and slowly turn into cupric.And you can't get the best etching results using it the way he does, period.He does state that cupric is more environmentally friendly compared to ferric, because you don't have to throw it away. And that's really not true. You can collect your excess spent ferric and put it in a fancy bottle, if you want, just the same as what to do with your excess cupric. Or in fact, you can continue to use your spent ferric in the same way as you would use cupric. So the title of "Stop using Ferric Chloride!" for environmental reasons is ironic, because you can continue using it, indefinitely, in order to "save the planet." The copper salts/ions are the environmental problem; the iron portion of the spent ferric is not an issue for the environment, nor for any septic/sewage treatment system. It's the copper, same as you get with cupric.The way I understand it, the number one use of ferric chloride, tons per year, is to treat sewage water.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 02:26:13 am
content: QuoteI polished off a fancy bottle of tequila the other day and I decided...after reviewing this thread...to use it for my spent ferric chloride."push the bottle down the road" so to speak

author: castingflame
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 07:04:57 am
content: I have been using sodium persulfate. What is the score with this.Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 07:32:08 am
content: Quote from: castingflame on March 28, 2019, 07:04:57 amSo was I.Has to be heated to be effective and it's a 'one etch' solution whereas either Ferric Chloride or Cupric Chloride give multiple etches and can be rejuvenated.Being a 'one etch' solution it's more wasteful IMO and the reason why I changed to an HCl based solution that slowly can be converted to a Cupric Chloride brew.There's some initial outlay with HCL and Peroxide but it's a single one time cost that for me was no more than a couple of purchases of Persulfate.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 09:39:05 am
content: Quote from: Wimberleytech on March 27, 2019, 02:26:13 amI remember the 'Seno Etch' etch in a bag systemhttps://www.rapidonline.com/mega-electronics-600-017-seno-sn3300-etch-in-bag-34-0385used to come with a bag of white powder 'neutralizer' that would convert the spent Ferric Chloride into an "inert" solid lump that could be disposed of as ordinary domestic waste.Any guesses at the composition?

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 02:22:50 pm
content: This morning, after doing some googling I decided to try the "cupric chloride + aluminum" combination. Very nice exothermic reaction!! Once it quits reacting with aluminum...it is just a gooey substance. Now what? I hated chemistry. This experiment was conducted outdoors with a nice breeze. I stayed away from the reaction. I read that it gives off hydrogen gas but I don't know how.Got this from the MG Chemicals website (they sell ferric chloride for pcb etching)Ferric Chloride FAQQ. How do I dispose of Ferric Chloride Solution?A. There are two ways:Contact your local Hazardous Waste Disposal CompanyThe solution must not be put down the drain because of residual copper ions left in it. To make it safe for disposal, you can add sodium carbonate (washing soda) or sodium hydroxide to it to neutralize it, until the pH value goes up to between 7.0 and 8.0, testing it with indicator paper. Copper will be deposited as a sludge. Allow the sludge to settle, pour off the liquid, further dilute it with water and then it can be poured down the drain. Collect the sludge in plastic bags and dispose of it as required by your local waste authority.---You still have a sludge that must go to the local waste authority.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2019, 07:25:27 pm
content: QuoteThe basic etchants have the least amount of undercutting. I'm not sure if sodium is the same as ammonium persulfate, but I have read it goes like thisbest etchant to worst, regarding undercutting. And my memory might be wrong:ammonium persulfate 1:8ferric chloride 1:5cupric chloride 1:4 (when done properly with aeration and no peroxide)HCl and peroxide would be 1:1Even if a 1 oz board takes 40 minutes with cupric, the board will still be ok even if I leave it in for maybe as much as 4 hours. It's only if I forget and sleep on it that I have ruined a board. I literally sometimes don't even look at a clock. Just do something else for "awhile."i have read some really confounding write ups on how ammonium persulfate manages to undercut so little. Some magic hoohah stuff. I think it's very easy to understand that if it takes multiple large ions to be in proximity to a molecule of elemental copper in order to etch it, you will have less undercutting in a thin layer of copper compared to a little peroxide molecule and a free proton being able to quickly diffuse into any crevice and zap anything in sight.The good etchant is thusly so because it diffuses slower in between the mask and the copper, and it's concentration will be lower in these tight spaces. After it does manage to etch, the concentration is now low in this crevice and diffusion back towards the mean concentration in the rest of the tank is relatively slower. Also, it will very dramatically slow or stall at below a critical concentration, because it takes multiple of these ions (lining up like an eclipse, through random molecular movement) to coincindentally be in position to gang up on one copper molecule. Whereas it takes only a single peroxide molecule to oxidize copper, then a single free proton in water to etch it away. So acid peroxide concentration will not drop as much in these tight spaces because it diffuses more easily, being smaller, plus it does not dramatically drop off/stop when the concentration drops, anyway. There's no "knee" in the acid peroxide curve. It's more linear.Additionally, any peroxide that decomposes on the board (or under the resist) will leave a gas bubble of pure oxygen on the copper, which will be able to oxidize the copper much faster than an air bubble due to higher concentration. Plus decomposing peroxide under the mask might also mechanically loosen it.If you do only an occasional board of modest trace size once a year, you can use any of these etchants. If you need high resolution, or if you do more than a rare board, you probably want to use any of the proper etchants and not the acid peroxide stuff, in particular. If you want to mass produce boards at home in any significant quantity, you really don't want to use acid peroxide. Poor yield; more labor/watching; more wasted time and effort and materials.And using cupric chloride without adequate aeration is almost as bad as acid peroxide. When the board stalls, you WILL add more acid and peroxide. Cupric doesn't practically work without either good aeration or a giant tank with low duty cycle, and poking holes in a piece of aquarium tubing doesn't cut it for the former. BTDT. Made a giant 2-3 liter tank with fish tank pumps and 4 lines of "poked hole tubing" for bubblers in it... total garbage. I was having to constantly add acid and peroxide to get boards to finish, and results and yields were terrible. 1/2 L tank with copious air and fine, high pressure bubbler leaves it in the dust with very significantly better fidelity and essentially 100% yields to a decimal point or 2. It was a revelation. Completely different etch quality.I would bet the majority of these guys using cupric after reading theRealElliot's writeup are actually etching primarily with acid peroxide. Yeah, you got your fish tank bubbler going. But be honest; that bottle of peroxide is like American Express. You don't etch a board without it. Cupric is simply not practical for the average hobbyist, IMO (unless acid peroxide is good enough, anyway). If acid peroxide is not producing good enough or consistent enough results, cupric probably won't be sigificantly better in the way you will probably end up using it... which will be using cupric to etch the first 1/3 of the copper, then adding peroxide to finish the board, because it won't finish without it. You might justify it that "if I waited another hour, it would finish, but I'm in a hurry." Nope. With no or inadequate aeration, it could take days for the board to finish without the peroxide.I didn't discover this on my own. When I started doing this, there were enough nuggets of good information out there that I wanted to see what happens when I actually do it right. That info might still be out there, but the modern internet seems to be geared more towards swamping out good with popular. The way theRealElliot has taught the world's greater audience to use cupric, you are really just letting the cupric recharge between uses so it doesn't slow down your diluted acid peroxide etchant too badly.