One pinout to fit them all - how can it be this hard?! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 08:12:07 am
content: Hi,As most people these days, I'm searching the net for alternative parts. And seriously...I'm looking for a DC DC step up converter, something to replace the TPS61221. There's an abundance of devices that have the same exact functionality, some with slightly different parameters (works from a higher voltage, lower/higher currents, that sort of thing). Like, there's MAX1722, LTC3525D-3.3, TPS61261, about a gazilion devices from Torex, stuff from Microchip... all battery input, +3V3 fixed output. And yeah, some have different packages, but are compatible enough that you could make a footprint that accepts more of them or even you could even hack a UQFN-6 onto an SC-70 footprint. Not pretty, but would work. If only...The damn things have the same pins, same functions, same requirements, some even have the same packages, but different pinouts. Is this intentional or simply random? I can see one layout being optimal for EMI/EMC, but since there's an abundance of them, I'm guessing that there's no one layout to rule them all.If there was an industry standard like there's for op amps that would ease my current headache considerably. But noooo...Sorry, had to vent.David

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 10:07:07 am
content: Quote from: daqq on February 10, 2022, 08:12:07 amWitt SOT23-5 / SC70 size there are also different pin configurations for OPs - usually the standard one and some alternatives. The LT1013 and a few more have a different pin-out in SO-8, supposedly because the old die and bond wires would not fit in the normal configuration.The odd pinouts sometimes help with the layout, e.g. for a single sided PCB.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 12:19:04 pm
content: QuoteSure, I know that there are variations. But for the most part you have the same pinout on them, with the occasional weird one. And generally the weird ones have their reason, like ultra high input impedance or shutdown pins, offset adjust etc. And sure, not every op amp will replace every op amp. But at least you have the option to swap some parts.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 01:37:27 pm
content: I guess China is the last place where anyone still cares about designing drop-in substitutes for competitor partsThe rest wants to lock you into their proprietary solutionBesides, I'm sure it's simply a matter of "make the pinout fit the IC layout" rather than "design the IC to fit a particular pinout".And they work that way because it's easier and because see above.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2022, 01:43:12 pm
content: Shrug, SOT23-6 bucks seem to have a de facto pinout standard, but others, who knows. I'm not so familiar with boost unfortunately.At least the current is low enough you could probably put a few footprints side by side and not mind the strays..? Sucks for space of course.Tim

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 08:00:46 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on February 10, 2022, 10:07:07 amJust a little FYI: English doesn’t use “OP” as an abbreviation for operational amplifier, we use “op-amp”. (“OP” is modern internet lingo for “original post” though!

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 08:12:34 am
content: English is what English speakers speak and everybody who speaks English is an English speaker.I have no trouble understanding the guy. Is your cultural bias holding you down?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:20:23 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 11, 2022, 08:12:34 amYes ... but are they anativeEnglish speaker?There is a difference.QuoteRather than use the phrase "cultural bias" to explain this, I would use the term "lifetime experience".Someone who has learned English as a second language will continue to view unfamiliar words and phrases with reservation and apply some analytical thinking to try and resolve a meaning. As a result, they aren't going to be as aware of the "awkwardness" of what was said.However, those of us who have spent a lifetime using the language have learned the customary ways of expressing various concepts - so when something is presented in a way that is not familiar, it throws us. We then have to stop, back up and try to work out what was meant.This is an impediment to fluid communication and the reason why the offering of a clarification was made.It was never a put-down or criticism. Just a member offering a little help, so the writer can improve their ability to communicate efficiently.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:39:51 am
content: Americans aren't native English eitherAnd I'm not serious, just throwing American BS back at them

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 12:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 11, 2022, 08:00:46 amIn the context of electronics, I read "OP" as output. This happens subconsciously.I agree though it makes no sense to say "OP" for op amp. Someone I know does a bit of amateur radio and bodges RF amps together. He refers to the bias as BIAS, but speaks it as B-I-A-S. I've mentioned it to him a few times but he carries on. Whatever.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 01:18:27 pm
content: About the confusion about using "English"I speak "United States"I find it difficult to speak "Electrical" or "Radio Frequency" (various dialects).I suggest that we go back in the history of science and learn to all write in Latin.That will make everyone nuts.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 06:26:22 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 11, 2022, 08:12:34 amMaybe in your native language, you use “OP” or similar as shorthand for op-amp, allowing you to understand it. Native English speakers absolutely would have no reason to make that connection, as other replies above have shown. I only know it because I also speak German and am learning electronics in German. (English is my native language.)And I agree with Brumby that native usage carries far more weight than non-native. Non-native speakers don’t get to decide what is and isn’t considered correct!! That’s a liberty I don’t even take with German, and my German is at near-native level. (As in, native speakers routinely tell me they had no idea it’s not my native language.) But I would never have the gall to try and tell them what is and isn’t right in their language!Brumby, thank you for elaborating on and explaining precisely what my intent was.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2022, 11:29:16 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 11, 2022, 06:26:22 pmI guess it helps to know what LT1013 is and/or to have any familiarity with PMI or BB and their products(I don't even know what Germans call those things).Speaking of pedantry, "native" comes from Latin meaning "born". You aren't born with a language, sorry. Everybody learns languages and everybody is equal, obviously.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 12:03:13 am
content: As an Old Fart, it jars every time I see or hear transistors referred to as "trannies".To us ancient ones, "tranny" means, & always will mean, "transformers!"Back on topic, I remember in the '80s when everybody making Opto couplers in 6 pin DIP used a common pinout, except for Siemens, who justhadto be different.Opto couplers seldom fail, but these ones did, with the (then) usual month or more lag to get new ones from EU.Modern bulk freight is excellent for what it is, but waiting for someone to fill an empty container to get a few tiny parts got old pretty fast.Sony could airfreight things overnight, but it seems, in 1980s Germany, Australia was just too far away, & made the shipping clerks heads hurt!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 01:21:27 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 12, 2022, 12:03:13 amOr people in dresses with unusually large hands (and sometimes 5 O'clock shadow). Does this mean that a trannie tranny is an NPN dressed up as a PNP?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2022, 04:34:36 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 11, 2022, 11:29:16 pmWhile your level of pedantry is nigh unto stratospheric, I must disagree with your phrasing. You may not be bornwitha language - but you are bornintoone. That will be all you know unless you move in multi-lingual circles or learn a new language.QuoteIndeed.QuoteNot obvious at all. Not even true, IMHO.Note at 1:47 ...(runs for cover)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:37:46 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 11, 2022, 11:29:16 pmSo what? The etymology of a word does NOT tell you what the word means today!!So you’re not only being pedantic, you’re being pedanticwhile being wrong!Quote from: magic on February 11, 2022, 11:29:16 pmNot even close, particularly in the topic at hand:native speakersacquired their native language in childhood. Childhood (up to around age 12) language acquisition does not compare to adult language acquisition.It literally occurs in a different part of the brain,so even when adults do manage to acquire true fluency, it’s still not the same as native.(I studied linguistics at university. Did you?)So no, pissant non-native speakers do NOT get to declare what is and isn’t acceptable in a language.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 07:43:52 am
content: P.S. While babies aren’t bornwith a language,they are bornwith languageas such, in that the childhood language acquisition part of the brain is literally made for that purpose. While (for obvious reasons) we cannot perform experimental research into this area, in cases where groups of children have grown up feral, with no adult contact at all, the kids automatically created a private language, withconsistentgrammar. This means that the pathways for grammar rules are there.Think of it like this: when children learn language, it’s basically programming a specialized DSP whose read-only programming fuses are blown at around age 12. After that, any language acquisition that happens is done in the CPU, which is much less efficient than the DSP.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 08:35:46 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 14, 2022, 07:43:52 amInteresting. Reminds me of an article I read a long time ago that stated that demented people who migrated to a different country switched back to the language they learned as a child.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 01:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 14, 2022, 07:43:52 amTsk, tsk, using "literally" for "metaphorically" a mere two lines after parading your qualifications in linguistics. Literally, the facility evolved, the brain parts themselves grew; neither were "made".

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2022, 01:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2022, 08:35:46 amThe man to initially read on the innate nature of language (as opposed to languages) is Noam Chomsky. Warning: Reading Chomsky may cause feelings of inadequacy. Chomsky is one of those people who, as one reads/listens, one gradually realises is terrifyingly intelligent and makes one realise that whatever one thought passed for intelligence in oneself is not that great after all.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:43:35 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2022, 08:35:46 amYep! Here in Switzerland, where there are a lot of elderly immigrants from Italy, there are actually nursing homes that have floors just for the old Italians, because indeed many have lost the ability to communicate in German or French (and many more just prefer it*).*which I understand completely. Though I speak (and write) German at basically native level, it requires more cognitive effort for me than speaking and writing English, making it more tiring to use.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:47:35 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 14, 2022, 01:14:23 pmHaving had a few Chomsky textbooks in my linguistics studies, I fully endorse this description!Reminds me of one of those classes. Each class session, a different student had to present a chapter of the Chomsky book. I did mine, explaining it how I understood it. The professor was skeptical and said he didn’t agree. Next week, we entered the classroom and on the chalkboard was written, “, you were right!”

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 09:51:40 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 14, 2022, 01:12:07 pmI’m pretty sure evolution is one way things are made. One meaning of “make” is “bring into existence”, and it doesn’t require human or divine intervention. So I said literally because I meant literally.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2022, 12:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 15, 2022, 09:47:35 amHeh, the one little case of that I have to my credit, was in the EE101 course I was obliged to take (I'd already transferred or tested out of the maximum number of credits). There was a problem that was supposed to be a chain of Thevenin-Norton transformations, just grind grind grind and there's your result; I hadn't spotted the symmetry (the intended ladder of transformations) and used a different transformation, which the instructor initially marked down (partial credit). I brought it to his attention and on closer inspection, he realized I'd (more or less) independently discovered one of the more subtle transformations that ideal sources permit, namely that current sources can be split up and routed arbitrarily, so long as the node currents sum the same (i.e., a current source from A to B, can be split into one from A to C, and one from C to B, etc.; the sum into C, etc. is zero so the circuit is identical). Or, something like that, I think that was the transformation at least; it's been a while.So the next class, he spent some time explaining that, and crediting me +10 instead of -10 points on that test...Doing something roughly analogous but in a linguistics class, or of parsing and understanding Chomsky, is probably the more impressive feat, I admit!Tim

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 09:20:37 pm
content: What? Que? Apa? Porquoi?I’m not sure that understand what you’re asking.