Easy EDA autorouter fails miserably - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 07:59:53 am
content: HiI've been using Easy EDA to put together a schematic around some Nixie tubes.I'm just a hobbyist but satisfied with the design so I've dragged the components onto a PCB.I'd like to use the autorouter (yes, I know) but it fails to hook up just about everything.Just to see if it makes any difference, I've tried rotating the driver ICs (at the bottom of the board), spreading out the Nixie tubes and neons and moving the bus extenders from the ends to the bottom.Nothing makes any difference though.Are there any obvious ways to get this done automatically ?The files are available for review if that would help.Thanks

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 09:48:27 am
content: https://easyeda.com/forum/topic/Please_add_dsn_export_option_for_FreeRouter-Hi6GECbLJ

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 10:12:30 am
content: I'm not a user of Easy EDA but, in general, autorouters are very hard to use. I gave up on them a long time ago and just route by hand. The good news - it isn't nearly as hard as it looks.Some general things you might try. Route the power by hand around the outer edges of the board. Look for patterns and try to run "bundles" of wires to leave lots of open space. If you are doing a 2 sided board (if not, you should), try routing mostly vertical on one side and mostly horizontal on the other.In your specific case, your layout appears reasonable. Note that each nixie and it's driver IC looks to be the same. So, try routing just one pair. It should be pretty easy. Once you have one pair done, knock off the other 5 the same way. After that, there won't be a lot of wires to do.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 10:30:47 am
content: With a circuit like that, I would route one of the 6 "units" then apply the same to each of the rest. Your brain is better than any autorouter I have seen as you understand how the circuit works, and you know the commonalities and differences of each unit.Rather than try a "cut and paste" of a routed subunit, I would simply use that as a guide template for the rest.

author: twospoons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 12:00:42 am
content: The only form of 'autorouting' I've ever found worthwhile is the manually guided sort, where the user effectively guides each route and the software does the fiddly bits (hugging and pushing tracks etc). Except for very specific situations its both faster and better to manually route, rather than to try to get an autorouter to do the job.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 02:15:37 am
content: Easy EDAautorouter fails miserablythere, fixed it once and for all.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 02:58:19 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 01, 2020, 02:15:37 ambwahaha! Tru dat.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 07:23:21 pm
content: Why do you like "the autorouter"?Was that just because of you got mesmerized by the word "auto", and your hopes of what that promised?Are you still continuing to like it after you've discovered that it fails miserably?I've tried to use an autorouter a few times somewhere back in the late '90s.It got the board routed for about 95% in a few minutes, and cleaning up the board and putting in the last 5% was more work then manually laying the tracks in the first place.Autorouters can be "usable", if your circuit design allows for it, and/or if you have much experience with setting it up. Some of the expensive programs have advanced functions which partially automate the layout, such as breaking out a big databus from an FPGA and getting that databus to somewhere else on the PCB. (You can find some youtube vids of this stuff).Your board also looks suspiciously like the nixie tube board Dave used in: " EEVblog #975 - Human vs Autorouter"The amount of effort required for manual routing of a (fixed) design is very much dependent on the tools you have available.A few years ago I settled on using KiCad (I tried some 6+ different PCB programs during an evaluation period). At that time I did not look at the tools for routing very much. Later KiCad improved and the "Interactive Router" got added, which is a wonderful tool in KiCad. You still have to lay the traces from a start point to the end point manually, add via's etc, but the way it can shove bundles of already laid tracks aside to squeeze in one more track or make room for an extra via is a huge time saver.This video is a good introduction to KiCad's Interactive Router:

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 06:17:31 am
content: GuysThanks for all the replies.I thought that I may have had a chance to get the autorouter to do it without making the mistakes that I'm likely to make and to save some time too.I made my first radio PCBs forty five years ago with some copper clad, an etch resist pen and some ferric sulphide. I also almost blinded myself with the latter back then.Now, the thought of being able to design a project and receive fully probe tested, high quality double sided boards with etch resist, THP, the silk screen, etc. is amazing. For next to nothing too.I've downloaded KiCad again. I'll have a go.Thanks for the videos.I wouldn't say 'suspiciously' like Dave'sIt's just a Nixie display board driven by the classic K155ID1 high voltage driver ICs. I believe Dave used something more modern. The design is on EASY EDA for anyone who's interested.I've got those videos and Dave's other Nixie PCB design video queued up to watch.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:40:25 am
content: Ever tried TOPOR?Look it up

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 02:09:48 pm
content: topor is really nice, even better than freerouter. the problem is you have to export the netlist from easyeda first.then finish the pcb completely in topor.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 04:44:22 pm
content: I had a look at TopoR thanks. It looks like the free / demo version is too limited in terms of the number of connections.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 06:34:41 pm
content: can you give us the link to the easyeda schematic ?

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 08:21:24 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on June 02, 2020, 06:34:41 pmThanks for askingHere it is -https://easyeda.com/netdudeuk/nixie-display-boardThe schematic is there along with some board layouts.The bottom two should be the same.Please ignore - PCB_2020-05-02_19-56-09

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 08:52:52 pm
content: can you please export the netlist using different format and upload it here.I can't do it surely because I'm not owning the schematic.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 08:56:36 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on June 02, 2020, 08:52:52 pmThanks.EasyEDA can export a netlist in a variety of formats:Spice: this is a Spice3f5 compatible netlist generated by the simulation engine of EasyEDA, Ngspice. It is not normally used as the basis for as a PCB layout.Altium Designer: a PCB netlist in a format that can be imported straight into Altium Designer and it’s predecessor, Protel.Pads: a PCB netlist in a format that can be imported straight into Pads PCB layout tools.FreePCB: a PCB netlist in a format that can be imported straight into FreePCB, a free, open source PCB editor for Windows.What would be the best option ?

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 09:53:43 pm
content: Pads: a PCB netlist in a format that can be imported straight into Pads PCB layout tools.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 09:58:08 pm
content: had a look but it wont let me save\copy the schematic or generate a pcb from the schematic

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on June 02, 2020, 09:53:43 pmUploaded thanks.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:01:13 pm
content: sorry, topor can't open this pads export. although it says it opens pads "asc" files.even if I rename the file extension from .net to .asc, it still doesn't open.can't test further.

author: JLCPCB Official
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 07:40:11 am
content: Hello ;Sometimes the cloud autorouter shows errors and fails due to some timeout issues. have you tried the local router! you can get it as it shows this picture

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 06:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on June 03, 2020, 10:01:13 pmThanks for looking anyway. Really appreciate your efforts.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 06:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: JLCPCB Official on June 05, 2020, 07:40:11 amI installed the local router thanks but it didn't make much difference.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 10:10:44 am
content: HiI let the autorouter do what it could, which is mostly down from the bottom bus extenders. I then manually routed the rest of the nets.I'm now ready to add a top ground copper layer with a 0.4mm clearance to allow for the 180v.I'm just wondering about the rest of the tracks from a 5v / 180v perspective ...

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 11:34:02 am
content: TO KRYPTON2035Topor will import a .ASC file which is a PCB file not a netlist file.So in order to go with Topor experience could the OP please provide aPCB file with pcb outline, component placements and rats nest netslinks and then export this the PCB file in .ASC format.Topor will import the .ASC file and do its majick.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 11:55:43 am
content: the easyeda link is no more available ... sorry can't test this trick about asc pcb files.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 08:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: netdudeuk on June 02, 2020, 06:17:31 amThat isn't really how auto-routers work. Basically all an auto-router can do is generate a layout that matches your schematic and doesn't violate your design rules. If you hand-route a design that passes DRC that is basically as good as whatever the autorouter would have produced. It could still be bad, but not in a way the auto-router could know. In some cases this means you need better design rules (depending on what your CAD tool supports). In other cases it just makes sense to manually route based on your knowledge of the design.I do use auto-routers occasionally. Generally only if I have a 4+ layer board so that I have solid reference planes and I have a bunch of non-critical low-speed signals that I just want to get connected. In that case I will either pre-route the important signals and let the auto-router chew on the rest, or if it is a completely non-critical design just let the auto-router do the whole thing.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 01:21:56 am
content: I use Topor quite often to start up the PCB layout.Usually manually do initial component placement in Altium, export to Topor and let it run.Once it tells me to cease auto routing, I switch over to Topor editor and manually adjust component placement to tidy up the squigly world of Topor.That being done it gets sent to Altium for a final manual brush up and fabrication.I am presently looking at the entire Eremex suite of software, it seems like good value for money.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 01:18:03 pm
content: HiI took my time and persevered all the way through with the manual routing. I placed an order with JLPCB and now I can see where the boards are in the manufacturing process. It'ssoexciting getting boards professionally produced for the first time

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 04:30:39 pm
content: Great! Once you get a sense of how much cleaner your layout is when manually routed, you'll never go back. Hope your boards work perfectly!

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 04:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on July 04, 2020, 04:30:39 pmThanks Phil. If it doesn't work perfectly at first, it will eventually. I'm fairly confident thoughI did re-work some of the auto-routed stuff and yes, it was over-complicated. I didn't undo it all though, just to save some time.It is really amazing how the hobbyist can design and have manufactured PCBs to the same standard as the professionals. I know that the designs themselves will not be equal but when you consider what we used to be able to make with a pen, some copper clad board and some ferric chloride, there's no comparison.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 07:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: netdudeuk on July 04, 2020, 04:53:59 pmYou'd be surprised how many "professional" designs are just cribbed from app notes.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 12:24:56 am
content: After a very simple search:https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=KiCad+K155ID1One of the first projects that pops up is:https://github.com/laurivosandi/nixiesp12I'm a bit surprised that DuckDuck fins projects directly on github. Github used to be indexed badly by "regular" search engines, and searching directly on github / gitlab (hackday?) may yield better results.Nixie tubes are quite popular in the hobby world, and when you put a bit more effort in finding other projects, you may well find a complete project that's even closer to what you want.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 07:17:19 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on July 05, 2020, 12:24:56 amThanks for the research but nothing is better than the one you designed, built and programmed yourself 😀

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 07:03:38 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on July 04, 2020, 07:23:16 pmIn many cases manufacturers actively encourage or even enforce that approach, as it usually causes them less headaches for customer support. Pretty much all SoC manufacturers I can think of strongly recommend copy-pasting reference designs instead of trying to come up with your own layout and routing.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 05:47:46 pm
content: HiI received my PCBs from JLPCB. They built them in two days and it was another two weeks for the cheapest shipping.I was really pleased with them but I did have a major issue. I added the Nixie bases to one of the PCBs, hooked up the 180 volt supply and attempted to drive the individual digits. There was obviously something odd going on. I checked my schematic and that was good. I discovered that the footprint for the IN-12A display was totally messed up. Someone actually called out the error to the team who made it some years ago. Pity that it wasn't fixed or pulled from EDA.Regardless, I discovered that the connections would be correct if the bases were mounted on the other side of the PCB, which is something I'd considered while doing the design.I assembled the board in stages and tested as I went. Every single part of it worksNo errors at all.Thanks to all those who helped out.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 05:20:10 pm
content: just for what it's worth : here is an easyeda to kicad converter, online !did not try it but at least it exists.https://wokwi.com/easyeda2kicad

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 08:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on September 17, 2020, 05:20:10 pmThanks. I’ll give it a go.