Rant: leaked battery from Tek - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: blueskull
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 08:51:36 am
content: I used to hate Tek scopes with passion, and now I have to say, eff you Tek service centers.About 3 years ago I sent my Fluke 289 to a nearby Tek calibration center, and they were kind enough to replace the old batteries, which is good.Until today I found out one of the 6 batteries is leaking and has already corroded a negative battery contact spring.Not only it corroded the spring contact, it also left quite some crystals and liquid nearby in plastic parts, and thank god the electrolyte doesn't corrode plastic.So, my question is, is there s non leaking battery available out there? I've been using Energizer for years without a single leakage incident, but this Duracell Procell "Professional" battery did.Also a side note to whoever read this from Tek, can you spend one or two more dollars on a better battery brand? I paid $150 to calibrate a handheld multimeter, and I certainly don't want to get this.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 09:31:59 am
content: It's a bit unfair to blame the service centre. It's very common for any battery to leak after 3 years. Unfortunately, I can't suggest a battery which will not leak. There's always a possibility any alkaline battery will leak.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 09:40:50 am
content: I have found that there are only two types of alkaline batteries:- Those that leak, and- Those that leak eventuallyAnd it seems it got worse over the years.Just a few month ago I had an Energizer battery leak badly in to one of my instruments and it was only 1 year old.I have also tested the Duracell Industrial and so far after a couple years, I had no problems.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 09:42:12 am
content: Never use Duracells. They (as you've noticed) leak.

author: WackyGerman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 11:01:18 am
content: The best solution to avoid leakage damage is to remove the battery from the multimeter . No battery is safe from leakage . Well you have good luck that the electrolyte didn t eat the traces from the pcb . Some IPA on a cotton swab will clean the contact spring

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 11:16:29 am
content: Been there too, but with Energizer, even though not severe, still its pretty nasty.->Rotten Energizers ruined Fluke 287 battery contactsAlso check out this thread that I made recently ... ->YARA...Now practically all my T&M gears are sterilized from alkaline cells.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 11:17:51 am
content: Quote from: WackyGerman on May 21, 2017, 11:01:18 amThat's good advice but sometimes impractical. Some test houses place the "calibration void if removed" sticker over a panel which needs to be removed to change the battery which is terrible. If I was the person in charge of sending the instruments in the company for calibration, I'd complain and never send it somewhere which does that.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 11:30:06 am
content: One protective measure you can take is to smear the contact surfaces (not the plastic) with Vaseline. It won't stop batteries leaking but it will help to protect the contact plating when they do. It also prevents contact resistance rising over time.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 12:30:02 pm
content: Sadly, any brand of alkaline battery can leak. I would not blame Tek service center at all.Duracells also leak (documented on this forum as well) as do other brands. I had few almost fresh VARTA leaked AAA batteries (with "Made in Germany" label).Heat (mostly), age and compression force seem to be factors in leakage. The biggest problem is massive induced corrosion. If you are lucky, corroded spring contacts can lose contact with a battery and stop device from working (leaked battery can still be good in terms of power delivery).In my opinion, solutions mitigate battery leakage problem are:check battery condition each 6 months or more oftenremove batteries from devices if not useduse alternatives to alkaline batteries - rechargeable NiMH or non-rechargeable lithium

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 03:40:52 pm
content: I opened up a few cordless phones ( Siemens and AEG) and checked the AAA NimH cells in there, and found that around half of them has a cell in there that was venting KOH electrolyte, and had visibly corroded the cell positive end to a dull colour. so pretty much any battery technology will leak with time.About the only ones I have never seen leak are the Tadiran primary lithium cells, they are really well built, which is reflected in the cost of those cells.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 04:54:00 pm
content: No experience with primary 1V6 lithium, but they likely also leak, but the bonus is the electrolyte is very volatile, so evaporates off really fast. No water but some ionic hydrocarbon, which likely is not going to hang around long enough to corrode, though it could transport nasty ionic compounds to the board, which probably can react with atmospheric moisture.would like to get one of those cells that are flat, and put it in some crimped copper pipe and punch a nail through the lot, then leave in ambient outdoor air for a month to see what corrodes.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 11:15:11 pm
content: Informally, what I've seen is that reports of Energizer leakage tend to come from outside the US, while reports of Duracell leakage seem to be more common in the US market. It seems likely that they're formulated differently based on regional regulations or market conditions.I use alotof AA and AAA Energizers and have never seen leakage from them, whether alkaline or lithium. Meanwhile, easily half of the Duracell alkalines I've left in place for more than a couple of years have shown some evidence of leakage. Some much sooner than that... as in, leaking before removal from the retail package.Duracell rechargeable NiMHs haven't been a problem so far.

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 01:44:13 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 21, 2017, 11:30:06 amThe somewhat more sophisticated version of this is silicone dielectric grease -- found frequently in automotive connectors and light bulb sockets. Unfortunately I find the trouble of cleaning up battery contacts much less than the trouble that happens when the battery leakage reaches PC boards :/

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 02:41:25 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 21, 2017, 08:51:36 amBeware the type of plastic used in the casing and the electrolyte used in your batteries of choice. For example, if you have a poly-carbonate case and alkaline batteries, you're gonna have a bad time...

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 05:54:18 am
content: I've seen far more Duracells leak in recent years (starting perhaps 10-15 years ago?), but can't recall seeing any Energizers do so. I have stopped buying the Duracells; whatever was changed (chemistry for environmental purposes, construction for bean counting purposes or some combination thereof), as far as I'm concerned they're dangerous crap at this point.-Pat

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 08:50:23 am
content: Ouch that is an awful thing to happen to the nice meter.But thing is i see batteries leaking all the time in products. If i had a cent for every time i had to clean a battery terminal in something. But its one thing when the contacts belong to a 10 dollar universal TV remote, another thing when it happens to a expensive piece of professional test gear.So far i have not seen much in the way of lithium coin cells leaking. But that doesn't mean that larger ones cant leak. But i have had good experience with all my rechargeable Ni-MH cells. I have a heap of them around and i never seen one leak, however Ni-Cd are a different story, the things are horrible. I still have over 10 year old Ni-MH AAs that had a lot of cycles go trough them and they still don't leak. Tho they have dropped in capacity quite a bit and developed a pretty high internal resistance, but they still hold a charge just fine and show no corrosion on there contacts.EDIT: This reminds me... i should go check the alkaline batteries in my Agilent DMMs

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 09:05:12 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 07:13:44 amOuch .. what a bummer.Please post the close up photos here as a reminder to others.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 09:13:04 am
content: Varta Lithium AA? Not seen those leak yet.http://www.varta-consumer.com/en/products/batteries/overview/lithium/aa

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 09:13:18 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 07:13:44 amIt's 2017 and battery 'technology' is going backwards ?A public tar and feather(and rodgering if anyone is into that)of battery company CEOs is justifiedand a good multi billion SUE job to seal the dealThen MAYBE we can put overpriced s*** batteries in our overpriced meters, and not have to buy overpriced meters again because we put overpriced...

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 10:07:28 am
content: any chance that leaked crap did some bridge work and the unit went into a wierd cal set up mode?Dial, legs, and track stuff all ok?Insulation test done with dial on VDC?U1461A tested on another meter to verify accuracy?

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 11:17:52 am
content: Ouch those are pretty significant effects to its operation.Id guess disassembling it and giving the PCB a good wash in some soapy water followed by washing in alcohol and oven drying would fix it just fine. But its just not the same in terms of trusting the measurements...and that likely not cheap calibration is useless now.I don't think the calibration company will take any responsibility for that, but its worth trying.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 09:19:22 amA good 91% IPA PCB bath with some light clean toothbrush scrubbing and thorough drying may resolve the above.edit: Or if you have an ultrasonic bath, that would work as well too.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 09:05:21 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 08:45:50 pmDid you try contacting Duracell?

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 09:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 09:29:53 pmDid you try the IPA bath? A lot cheaper than $241.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 09:44:54 pm
content: Most battery manufactures will repair or replace equipment damaged by leaky batteries, I sent Energizer a AA Maglite once and they sent me a check for $20. It's obnoxious though, I've had a LOT more leaky batteries in recent years than I ever used to. Just a few weeks ago I replaced some badly leaking Duracells in my mom's thermostat, they said best by 2023 on them!I avoid alkalines in general now, I use Eneloop and Fujitsu NiMH cells in everything I can.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 09:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 09:52:02 pmYou can remove the MOVs for test purposes and see if the meter shows 0L in resistance mode.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 10:06:31 pm
content: If the MOVs are bad, replacements at digikey/mouser for 65 cents each as per this threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fixing-a-fluke-87v/

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 10:09:44 pm
content: Trust me -- or don't -- it's Duracell's fault.Yes, Tek could do the right thing and take responsibility for using batteries that have had serious quality problems for years. But after three years, it's not too surprising that they're reluctant to do that.Duracell, on the other hand, should be held to account.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 10:13:29 pm
content: The MOVs used today in Fluke's modern handheld meters have been around since the Fluke 70 series II days as I discovered viahttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-179-need-help-identifying-part/

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 10:50:42 pm
content: Did you check the PTC? It should measure about 1.0 or 1.1k ohm.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 11:09:59 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 10:57:11 pmBoth look good. I think the spec for the PTC is +/- 20% so your readings are in the ball park.I had one PTC in a "working" Fluke 77 III that read 100k ohm. It wasn't until I measured a 100ohm and a 1M ohm resistor that I noticed the readings were fluctuating and out of spec. Finally, narrowed down the problem to the PTC.I have seen this non 0L offset before somewhere in another thread, but can't remember the exact details right now. I will have to try to recall and see if I can find it?

author: jordanp123
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 11:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 08:45:50 pmDid they even offer any hint as to why they (fluke) wouldn't offer the warranty service? That's pretty bad of them though, its one of the fluke's main selling points.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 11:21:26 pm
content: Quote from: jordanp123 on May 22, 2017, 11:16:28 pmYes, I forgot to mention that if you bought the 289 from an authorized dealer and registered it on their website or have a receipt, you should qualify for the 10 year minimum warranty without question.Now, Fluke may determine after receiving your meter, that you "abused" it and refuse repair/replacement, but to get a $241 charge over the phone without even seeing the meter does not sound right. I would phone them back again and ask to speak to a supervisor.

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 11:50:35 pm
content: I still say it's about time for a Duracell class action lawsuit...

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 11:54:43 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on May 22, 2017, 11:09:59 pmThis may be the thread or there could another couple?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-83-multimeter-repair-attempt/Trying to remember all the stuff I helped with over the last 7 years ... not easy. Or was it in a youtube video that I saw?BTW, does the non 0L show up in every ohms range? Do you get 0L if you manually enter each ohms range?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 11:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: P90 on May 22, 2017, 11:50:35 pmand time for a BATTERY SHAME thread here perhaps ?permanent sticky too...

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 12:05:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 22, 2017, 11:21:59 pmI don't know how warranty works across the borders, but that might explain the $241 charge. You might luck out and get a free repair or replacement from Fluke USA.If this were my meter and having success with IPA baths on used/abused meters that I bought from ebay, I would do the IPA bath before spending $241 USD. But, it is your decision.My first experience with IPA bath back in Oct 2012.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/fluke-77-ii-incorrect-readings-on-all-ranges/

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 12:28:34 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 23, 2017, 12:15:30 amWhen Fluke actually published service manuals with schematics, bill of materials, etc, cleaning the pcb with IPA was included the manual.A sample from the Fluke 76 manual (first one in my folder).I do understand your reluctance though since this is under warranty.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 12:46:02 am
content: The last service manual that I can find is the Fluke 77 III. The exact same instructions.http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/77iii___smeng0100.pdfStarts at page 3-4.The last service manual that I can find of modern current selling Flukes is the 170 series.http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/17x_____cieng0600.pdfPage 8 has the same instructions.There are several examples here on eevblog where an IPA bath or ultrasonic bath has fixed offsets due to non visible pcb contamination.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 02:59:17 am
content: Let's see if I'm up to date on this?The usual suspect for the ohms offset (MOVs - 5k and 30k in the threads below)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-179-need-help-identifying-part/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87-v-mystery-low-impedance-input/were the root cause, but you already removed all 3 and had the same 400M offset.In some cases an IPA or ultrasonic helped, but you still have the same problem. Maybe try drying the pcb a bit more using a computer fan for another 2 or 3 hours and see if the offset still exists.Cleaning has done something though? Originally it was 400M and now it is 300M.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 03:59:05 am
content: Wow, 400M, I wasn't aware there were DMMs that could even read that high. Seems like just humidity in the air could easily throw that off, wonder how they do it.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 04:04:41 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 23, 2017, 03:59:05 amThe Fluke 289 will measure up to 500Mohmhttp://www.fluke.com/fluke/caen/digital-multimeters/advanced-multimeters/fluke-289.htm?pid=56061and it can measure conductance as well.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 04:33:17 am
content: That's crazy, I didn't even know that was possible without using HV.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 01:05:42 pm
content: You can measure really high resistances even without HV if you have something that can measure tiny currents.I have an old HP 4141 SMU that for the fun of it i used to measure the insulation resistance of 10cm of CAT5 twisted pair. It turned out to be about 80 TOhm. It can generate a test voltage of 100V and measure pA flowing trough it. Tho it the result is likely not precise at all at resistances this high. But anythyng under a TeraOhm it can give a pretty good result. For such a measurement triax cables have to be used so that you got a guard shield all the way to your DUT.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2017, 03:26:24 pm
content: Well I learned something new here. Heck TeraOhm is not even a unit I've ever used, glad to not have to deal with anything requiring such ridiculously high units of resistance.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 12:31:14 am
content: Hi, as mentioned at another post, both my Fluke 289 and 189 should and CAN measure 1000+ volts from any type of insulation tester,but will read as 8.3 to 8.4 Megohms, not 10 megThe 50 to 500 volt ranges do display 10 megohmsIt only happens with these two meters that are years apart and it's too much coincidence,so it's either by design to limit HV 'earlier' from nuking certain onboard functionsor they didn't do all their homework at the testing stageOtherwise they work fine

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 12:46:30 am
content: yeah sounds like a dud component in there somewhereGood luck,hope Fluke fixes it with the free money they are getting to sort their problem for you