Arduino vs. Arduino - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 06:05:37 pm
content: HackAday is reporting that there is serious infighting in the Arduino camp.Quote

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 06:17:52 pm
content: From my perspective, Arduino is good due to the availability of cheap boards + shields. The first thing I do with my arduino is to blow out the arduino firmware.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 06:19:15 pm
content: Might not really matter. The Asian knock-offs have kind of commoditize the brand name. Hard to see how the 'brand' could continue long term profitable with the open sourced hardware/software roots of the product family.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 06:22:56 pm
content: another makerbot ...lets start with open sauce then try to monetize it and it ends up being taken off open source ...and then the whole cat and dog world comes crashing down.one more reason not touch touch open source stuff. even with a 6 month old dead fish ...

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 07:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 26, 2015, 06:22:56 pmHmm. Maybe an opportunity for a crowd-funded money-maker!

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 07:39:40 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 26, 2015, 06:17:52 pm+1Me too.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 07:46:51 pm
content: Similar schisms happened to thousands of closed source companies - founders want to go different directions, sue each other, so the Open Source angle is a red herring in that respect. Both Arduino factions agree the brand is valuable, the difference is how to capitalize on it.With a closed source company, such a dispute can lead to the whole lot disappearing. People are left with hardware with no specs, software with no support or updates. Whatever happens with Arduino, the software and hardware will continue with third parties, whether commercial or non-profit.The support from Arduino is pretty minimal as it is, it's quite likely a community edition could provide a better job of that.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 02:54:15 am
content: QuoteWell, that seems pretty much a lost cause. Even not counting China's clones (and derivatives), there are already a lot of other people manufacturing "authorized" Arduino boards. Perhaps there is more going on behind-the-scenes (with Arduino Zero?) than we are aware of.(Otherwise, I'm with Snake. This is not-very-unusual growing pains for this class of company, OS or otherwise.)QuoteI disagree, and I claim that the (many!) hobbyist boards similar or superior in capabilities and quality of initial software that have failed to continue to advance, despite OS and "community support." ("Wiring" itself being a good example. But also USB Bitwhacker, Maple, Sanguino, and a huge variety of vendor-subsidized development boards (butterfly, STM32 Primer, Assorted NXP Expresso, Assorted microchip boards, etc.) It seems to take a large group of people, or a large amount of fanaticism, to make acommunity project last longer than the average year-or-two attention span of an underemployed hacker.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 03:16:26 am
content: too late my friend too late... the clone war has already begun long time ago, now its time the jedi are to be crushed, china empire will rise and the rebellions will come up with better ide and avr fw...

author: mazurov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 03:49:45 am
content: Seems like Arduino project has good chance of detaching from the founders, which is excellent - just take a look at recent development activity.

author: photon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 07:48:33 am
content: FYI, open source is not going anywhere. In the 90's pundits affirmed that UNIX was dead. Didn't happen. The embedded world today runs on LINUX/GNU/ARM. The reasons are: cost, quality universality.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 03:49:40 pm
content: This is fun, there are now two Arduinos, arduino.cc and arduino.org.arduino.org have launched the "Arduino Zero Pro" with software support in their version of the IDE, while arduino.cc have not.arduino.cc ZeroArduino.org Zero ProWhat a pretty mess!

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 04:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on February 27, 2015, 02:54:15 amYou may well be right. I think gaining a critical mass and proper leadership are both required for success.The reason that I say another party could provide better support, is that arduino Sa could hardly do worse. There are currently 835 open issues on Arduino in github, and 139 outstanding pull requests. There are issues over 5 years old imported from the previous bug tracker, some of which have fixes that have never been applied. There is rarely any official response to queries/suggestions, nearly all the support effort is from volunteers, even on the dev list.I would give Paul Stoffregen control of the Arduino IDE and see what he can do with that. As for the hardware design, there are quite a few good EE who could take care of that, perhaps yourself included?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 05:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 27, 2015, 03:49:40 pmThese boards are not open source, right? (some proprietary debugger firmware, just like the latest teensy).

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 05:56:47 pm
content: Debugger implements a standard CMSIS-DAP, so while proprietary, it implements a standard and a well-documented protocol. The debugger chip is sold by Atmel as a finished "black box" product, so you are not even supposed to know that it has firmware.My simple command line utility (https://github.com/ataradov/embedded/tree/master/edbg) can program this board from Linux and Windows.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 06:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 27, 2015, 05:52:31 pmI think you are right, the Atmel EDBG firmware is closed. It's funny how Atmel PR bang on about Open Source all day but the one little thing they do for OSHW is closed. Idiots!The Zero seems overpriced as well, it costs more than a Due.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 06:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 27, 2015, 06:10:35 pmSame goes for the FTDI chip firmware, and no one complains about that.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 08:08:22 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 26, 2015, 06:22:56 pmStop bashing Dutch cuisine! Harring is never that old, even if it smells like it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 08:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 27, 2015, 06:12:03 pmWith FTDI you have alternatives.Where's the alternative for this?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 08:43:20 pm
content: Any SWD programmer? There are dozens of them, every ARM chip manufacturer has one and they all support CMSIS-DAP interface and have the same pinout. Thanks to ARM for straightening all that programmers mess.Standard ARM programming connector is present on both boards.BTW, the same EDBG chip is also used in all new standalone Atmel programmers. And this is essentially the same thing as ST-Link that ST puts on their development boards. And it is the same as TI's version.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 08:45:14 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 27, 2015, 08:43:20 pmWith no support for any vendor commands, or AVRs.QuoteAnd TI, at least, have open source options.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 08:47:35 pm
content: We are talking about ARM board, why AVRs are even here?There are no significant vendor commands. The only vendor commands (at least publicly documented) are commands to get board information, which are not important at all for real development.

author: Coliban
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2015, 07:53:54 am
content: Quote from: photon on February 27, 2015, 07:48:33 amAgreed. But don´t forget the Mac OSX world (which might be a magnitude bigger), which is also based on Unix (not only linux is based on Unix). Seems that Unix will never die...

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2015, 11:46:02 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 27, 2015, 08:47:35 pmI don't know why the Open Source concept is so hard for some people to grasp. I guess it is down to decades of brainwashing that things must always be owned by someone, and now people can't conceive of any other system.I liken Open Source to vegetarian food. If something is described as vegetarian, then it should contain no meat. It's really simple. In the same way, if an Open Source design has a programmable chip, the firmware must be open source.What you are saying is "it only contains a little meat, you can hardly taste it, so can't we still call it vegetarian?". Obviously, no.Mind you, I have met a few people who can't grasp the idea of vegetarian food either.Note, we are not telling Arduino that their products must be Open Source, they are tellingusthat their products are Open Source. It's entirely their choice. But it's misleading and stupid to put an Open Source label on something that is not Open Source, in the same way it is misleading and stupid to put "suitable for vegetarians" on a recipe that contains meat.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2015, 12:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: Coliban on February 28, 2015, 07:53:54 am. . and Android.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2015, 12:59:26 pm
content: -l liken Open Source to vegetarian food. If something is described as vegetarian, then it should contain no meat. It's really simple. In the same way, if an Open Source design has a programmable chip, the firmware must be open source-Does it matter then if everything in an open source design is open? For example, is it sufficient that the chips firmware source code is open? Or the firnwares binary is openly available? Or if the microcode in the chip is open? Or the chips design is open?...Is., how open is your -open -?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2015, 07:22:39 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 28, 2015, 11:46:02 amHa, go read 100+ page long discussions whether eating eggs is true vegetarianIn reality, there is no way for you to know that this chip even has firmware.And I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, I myself like to see as much of this stuff open as possible, but sometimes big corporations just can't even if they want. This EDBG code may contain some programming algorithm for a chip designed for military applications or specific customer, so it can not be disclosed.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2015, 01:57:55 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 28, 2015, 07:22:39 pmno need waste time read 100+ page, just eat the egg if you feel like, you wont die (unless you have allergic nothing to do with veggy or not), people ate meat they didnt die, people ate nasty meat (that other non-veggy people dont eat) they didnt die. our teeth structure is omnivor-like, so you should learn something from the nature.... vegetarians live in there own "delusion" but we have no objection since pretty much everything on this earth is a "delusion", being either vebetarian or not are not wrong, both will not do any harm and will not die due to the cause... what is possibly more harmfull is wasting time reading pages and then hating or killing each other. what is wrong when you try enforce others to do something (cannot be proven to be absolute right) that they dont like to do. back to this OSSHW, i read there's a clause in a license that you can mix proprietary (paid) and open source elements in your SW/HW. that can be done. if you expect everything has to be open source down to FR4 or the plastic enclosure chemical mixture element and processes then you are delusional imho. simply, if you like it... participate. if not then dont.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:41:45 am
content: The story at Make:http://makezine.com/2015/03/19/massimo-banzi-fighting-for-arduino/

author: photon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 02:30:08 am
content: Sigh...

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 03:28:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2015, 01:41:45 amStuff like that can shorten your life. The brand is going to take a beating.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 03:51:52 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 21, 2015, 03:42:38 amYou don't have to "judge" anything or take EITHER "side" to see that there is a messy conflict here.It is always sad to see people resort to legal wrangling vs. simply "building a better mousetrap".

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 09:59:18 am
content: I can't really see how Arduino LLC can survive, if Arduino SRL are selling boards and not giving royalties to the LLC. Really, they "have them by the balls" which is probably an Italian expression. When it comes to funding a legal fight, which could drag on for a year or two, they (LLC) will simply run out of money. It's the LLC that develop the IDE and run all the community stuff.It's not obvious who will get control of the trademark, the judge will not rule on what agreements were in place between founders, only what legal entity had prior use of the mark. That could rule in favour of Arduino SRL.Although Arduino has a lot of users, there are vanishingly few developers. And of those, many would like to see a lot of technical changes (connector spacing!). In order to maintain a viable project, it needs a central authority to oversee it. Otherwise, it will fizzle out into numerous incompatible forks, or will simply decay. Leaflabs Maple is an example of that.It probably doesn't need saying, but the Arduino team are obviously amateur businessmen, and have made a lot of management mistakes over time. They let it drag on to a point it is now out of control, they should have nipped it in the bud. They would be better rebranding as "Real Arduino" and simply get on with it, rather than wasting money on what is largely a point of principle. I think a real business person would follow the rule "be ruthless or be pragmatic".In the long run, 8 bit AVR is a dead-end, so perhaps Arduino has had it's time anyway?As for those outside Arduino, and who were never target users, there probably is nothing to care about. The Open Source nature adds an extra angle, but in reality founder splits and trademark battles are par for the course in ordinary closed source businesses.Although, I am coming to the conclusion that Open Source Hardware is an impossible business model to keep going. I was probably naive to think otherwise.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 10:19:40 am
content: QuoteIt depends on whether they have other sources of income. I think Adafruit and Sparkfun both manufacture Arduino derivatives at places other than Smart Projects, and they may send royalties/contributions to LLC (that's been implied, in the past.) I'm not sure about other places (Sainsmart, OSEEP, Seeed...)QuoteI dunno. The ATmega328 has the "right size" and "right complexity" for the sorts of things that Arduino was originally meant to do. IMO, it's the recent attempts to branch into "Raspberry Pi" territory (Yun, Galileo, even Due (to a lesser extent)) that are misplaced.They're too complicated, and the other players are too hard to compete against.QuotePerhaps. All businesses are "hard to keep going." Ten years and quite a bit of fame and mindshare isn't a bad legacy, even if it ends now.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 10:41:58 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 21, 2015, 09:59:18 amI see the opposite.Arduino SRL might be selling boards, but it sounds like they have no plans to actually do anything else, and their name is basically mud. And they only have the trademark in Italy. The only thing they have going for them are the established channels and the Italian Trademark. And I'm willing to bet that the Italian market is tiny compared to the rest of the world.Arduino LLC on the other hand have:- The trademark in every other country- All the big names and the public figure head in Massimo Banzi.- arduino.cc and the whole community around that.- They control the developmentAll they need start doing is selling their own boards and they are back in business.QuoteThat is why they should instantly start doing something real about.Go to the community and the major distributors like Adafruit and Sparkfun etc and plead that they are going to go out of business unless people and dealers back them.Start a marketing campaign dissing Arduino SRL (which they have effectively already started) and hammer it home to everyone that they are a cop-out commercial arm that don't even deserve the the .org domain name. Make it front and centre on your website and keep it there until the other guy goes out of business.Start giving new boards trademarked names if you have to and only having the software officially support those from now on.If Arduino SRL don't have the trademark rights outside of Italy then start a fight actively engaging distributors who sell their products outside of Italy.QuoteI thought Arduino LLC have it in the US and other places and have actively operated on it for years. Surely that can't be taken from them?QuoteExactly, and that is why I see Arduino LLC having the upper hand here. They are the developers.QuoteYep, I'm amazed they let it go on this long. And even now they seem to not be taking it by the horns but sitting back thinking "she'll be right".QuoteYes, I would instantly withdraw all lawyers, switch brands somehow, and start making your own trademarked boards. The community will follow the developers, not some maker who quite frankly now look like complete douches (even though we haven't heard both sides of the story).QuoteIt can work, but it seems not once the scale becomes big enough. But that's not that surprising.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2015, 10:41:58 amArduino Srl have plans, they have launched Zero Pro ahead of arduino.cc, the are launched Yun Mini, they are developing the IDE for Zero Pro. They also have Federico Musto, who is a hard nosed business guy.They are not sitting on their hands. As for the name, a lot of people do not know or really care. Most think people think arduino.org is still the official Arduino board manufacturer.QuoteThey don't have a trademarkin any country. The US application lapsed before being granted. The new one is subject to legal dispute.QuoteThey do have that. How much money is that worth though?QuoteNot really, since it is open source.QuoteI agree, they have to get real, no more Mr Nice Guy. The gloves are off, time to do whatever it takes to win. But Banzi and pals might be too nice for that. Their "plea for help" is already on page 2, and has a general tone "don't worry, everything will be ok".Suing Arduino SRL wastes time and money, and can only get them back to where they were before, instead of moving forward.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:10:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2015, 10:41:58 amJudging from the article it seems Arduino LLC has an exclusive contract with Arduino Srl (Italy) saying that they are the ones to produce the boards for Arduino LLC. That would put Arduino LLC between a rock and a hard place. It is pretty stupid to sign such a contract and pretty devious to have people sign such a contract.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:17:32 pm
content: QuoteBut it provides interesting conversational topics and confirmation of my suspension that it is all about money.For that, I support their lawsuit and any counter lawsuits.Gentlemen, start your fight!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 21, 2015, 01:02:42 pmI've never cared about arduino.org All I've ever noticed and used is arduino.cc and that it's either a "genuine arduino" or it's not. I had no idea who actually made it.QuoteThat's not what Massimo implied in his Make article, but ok, that's changes the game a bit. But only a bit. It's actually now clearer what they have to do - ditch the Arduino name and go with something else.QuoteIt's wortheverything!With this alone (+ they are the developers) they control the game.They can influence the public perception, the community, the community, the resellers, the media etc.QuoteSure, but who else is really doing it?QuoteYep, and my fear is they will fail because of this attitude, and will continue to waste what money they have on the lawyers.First thing I would do is totally plaster arduino.cc with the story and brainstorm a new way forward, and whatever it is I'm sure the community will follow them. Arduino SRL are nothing, they have no voice. And if they lose major distributors because they are douches then they are toast.All this laywer bullshit really pisses me off. Why can't they just agree to get along like Victorinox and Wenger did with the swiss army knife, just a handshake and a gentleman's agreement lasted them generations.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:22:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 21, 2015, 01:10:05 pmWhy they would have done that is beyond me. What was in it for Arduino LLC?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:31:08 pm
content: This war will be won in the trenches.One of the next things I would do if I was Arduino LLC is leverage their goodwill with the major distributors, tell them the story, and ask if they can provide a royalty directly to LLC (as it seems some may already do?). AFAIK the dealers owe nothing to Arduino SRL, and there would be nothing stopping the dealers providing a royalty (or donation) to LLC for each "genuine product" sold that was produced by Arduino SRL.And/or ask the dealers if they would consider not stocking "genuine" one any more.Meanwhile, change brands and charge forward with that.If Arduino LLC truly have been left high and dry with no trademarks of their own, then I don't see how they are going to win it back from SRL. That could takes year of trademark lawyers at 20 paces. Time to jump ship.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:43:32 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2015, 01:19:26 pmOn reflection, I think you nailed it.Going after Arduino Srl for the trademark is playing their game. The real asset is the goodwill.I raised the issue on the Adafruit fourm, if anyone I would expect them to come out to bat for Massimo Banzi and the original Arduino. This is their response:QuoteSo basically community activism = internet rage and can be ignored in favour of business as usual. With friends like these...!

author: FreddyVictor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 01:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 21, 2015, 01:10:05 pmsurely their contract would be with Smart Projects rather than Arduino SRL ?this could be a way out maybe ?as others have mentioned, renaming the company would be the best option, obviously making sure that the new name is registered in all countries....

author: OZ1LQB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 02:00:57 pm
content: Hi All..Dave why not make a rant about this ?some time ago you made one about the Pickit 3and you made microchip listen.i think that bassimo could use your help..sorry for my spelling..Claus

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 02:24:29 pm
content: Quote from: OZ1LQB on March 21, 2015, 02:00:57 pmThinking about it.The problem is that we have only heard one side of the story.I have no reason to doubt Massimo, I think he's genuine, and from (so far) a lack of response from the other side, they aren't denying it. But still, one sided.I can run out to bat with one side, but I have to be more careful.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 02:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 21, 2015, 01:43:32 pmIs that from Lady Ada herself?I would have assumed that her and Massimo and the core team would be fairly tight and that they would take the side of what's best for the spirit of the OSHW community?But on the other hand this response sounds purely commercial

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 03:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2015, 02:32:23 pmThat was from "adafruit_support_mike" I think, whoever that is.Maybe there is a hint that Martino has a side of the story that hasn't been told, but it is very easy for an aggressor to paint themselves as a victim, then who you're going to believe? Adafruit are one of arduino.org's distributors. Perhaps Arduino Srl said they are now the official Arduino, and if they want official Arduinos to sell, they play by his rules.arduino.cc are out of stock on all boards (except a couple of lilypads). It seems they have been cut off from the supply chain. I guess that all new boards out of arduino.org will now have "arduino.org" instead of "arduino.cc" on them.Ironically, a few months ago arduino.cc wrote about how their new color scheme and graphics would help them prevent counterfeits. At the time they knew there was a problem with Martino. Really have to wonder whether Arduino.cc are making the right decisions.OTOH, I was surprised to learn of arduino.cc's extensive staff roster. They clearly have sufficient income to keep going without royalty payments on the hardware.In which case, I am wondering if it is best we just leave them to sort it out themselves and not worry about it.I think it is time to take a closer look at mbed, which really seems to be a better Arduino all round.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 03:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 21, 2015, 03:07:41 pmMbed is a nice idea, but the platform documentation is an absolute train wreck. You can spend your life trying to find documentation on something as simple as sleep modes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 10:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2015, 01:22:33 pmI guess they got suckered in somehow. Maybe the promise was to keep prices low? As a favour to a friend? Unaware of how copyright laws work? Probably the latter.According to this Italian Wired article, the cause of the split is that  and the other three wanted to internationalize the brand and license production to other firms freely, while  and  at the company formerly known as Smart Projects want to list on the stock market and keep all production strictly in the Italian factory.This quote is third or fourth hand information but it makes it clear the situation isn't that simple otherwise the people from Arduino LLC would have hired a board assembly house already. So somehow the rights of the hardware are with Arduino Srl (Italy) and people have to live with that.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 10:36:00 pm
content: QuoteHave they? Has anyone actually RECEIVED ONE? And it's drastically overpriced, compared to lots of other ARM development boards on the market (and not just the ones sold "direct from China") (All Genuine Arduino boards are pretty overpriced, but the Uno-class boards don't have very many "credible" competitors.)QuoteDitto? I dunno; I haven't followed the Yun side of things at all.QuoteThey changed some constants in what was presumably the Arduino Zero Beta software. I haven't seen any signs that they're actively doing development (or that they have any SW development team, or that they are recruiting a development team.)QuoteYeah; a big "business name" and a marketing pitch can reel in money for a long time, even without viable development strategy or profits.QuoteIt's not clear WHAT they are doing, aside from shipping distributors "genuine arduino" boards whose VID doesn't match the VID of the boards they shipped a couple weeks/months ago.For all I know, they could have a crack team of Italian coders on their side; major contributers I haven't heard of because I don't read the Italian section of the forums. Or they could have the Linino team and be "phht. We code linux; this Arduino core stuff will be a piece of cake!" Maybe they're actively recruiting Nick and Roger and Paul... But I haven't seen any signs of "useful" activity yet.Quote"Technically" Arduino LLC is in good position, because they have the development team, and it's easier to replace a manufacturer than it is to put in place a new development team."Legally" they are in a tough place, because they can't replace Smart Projects as manufacturer without violating the same agreements that their case against Arduino SRL hinges upon. (assuming that my understanding of non-public agreements is approximately correct.)(I came across a legal case recently where a company cut off a partner who they discovered was embezzling/misappropriating funds. And then was successfully sued by that partner because (as I read it) this "cutting off" was done incorrectly according to of the rules of the company. Even though the embezzling part was not in doubt.)Any company with "skin in the game" would be very foolish to say anything more than "no comment." It's impolite to ask. :-)(like being casual friends with both parties of a messy divorce. You don't get to go around asking the closer friends who screwed up worse...) (not that what we're doing here is much better :-( )

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 10:40:29 pm
content: Of course, the nice part of all this is that since it IS all OS HW/SW, the people depending on Arduino infrastructure have alternatives even if it all falls apart. Perhaps not GOOD alternatives, but ... better than if you were counting on the next big chip out ofP.A. Semiconductorswhen they were suddenly acquired by Apple...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 10:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on March 21, 2015, 10:40:29 pmAnd that's the problem, people think OSHW is just some magical thing that can be maintained by the community, because, well, it's open source. Thatneverhappens, it always comes down to one (or a few) people taking charge and pushing the "official" development.If both companies end up trying to develop under the Arduino brand, the entire official Arduino concept is pretty much boomed.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 11:11:30 pm
content: Quotetranslation: money.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 11:17:31 pm
content: Frankly I will support which other one supports the community and open source/open hardware. If one of them proves to not support the open community then I will vote with my wallet and make sure I never buy any of their products.

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 11:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2015, 02:24:29 pmI have no respect for Marchese Banzi. After the good (but not very complicated) work the Arduino team did building on the Wiring IDE and hardware, Banzi cries foul when the Chines clones hit the market. Besides the hypocrisy of complaining when an open source design that you copied from someone else is tweaked and mass-produced, he seems oblivious to the fact that the cheap clones probably are what made Arduino so successful. It's crazy to think people who buy a $5 Uno clone (I've even seen some with the ch340g serial and a qfp 328p for < $3 on Aliexpress) would have bought an official Arduino branded version for $25 if the clone wasn't available. Many of the clones are better than the official boards; some Uno clones have holes to solder a row of male headers next to the female headers. You can get $2 pro mini clones with crystal instead of a resonator and with an AMS1117 regulator that can handle half an amp or more vs 150mA for the L05 regulator on the official pro mini.And like other people have pointed out, many people don't even use the Arduino IDE to program the clone hardware. Most of the code I write is with avr-gcc and makefiles, flashed to a clone pro mini board or a usbasp board.

author: photon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 11:34:00 pm
content: I can guess that Martino and Banzi have both lawyer'd up. Legal costs don't get ridiculous until or unless the litigation begins. I doubt either has enough money for a long court battle, but are nevertheless studying their legal options. This is possibly why we have not heard from Martino yet.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2015, 11:54:38 pm
content: QuoteThe proper question is "can I maintain itmyselfif the company goes away?"Completely proprietary system with closed source software (oh, say, a cisco router.) No way. Not even if the designs and SW become available via escrow or something.Linux system playing video on a kiosk with proprietary GPU, and fancy codecs and such (RPi)? No.CLI-based embedded linux on a relatively well-documented base (OpenWRT on a router)? Maybe. But I can't build new hardware.AVR Arduino? Sure!(note that this is an individual evaluation!)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 12:08:18 am
content: If it is open source you can at least hire someone to fix it for you. IMHO that is a major advantage of open source hardware and software: you can build new products based on existing designs and code. There usually is some giving and taking so the core design gets better.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 12:41:13 am
content: For people moaning about internet rage based on third hand information, that's BS, because this is what Banzi has to say in his own words at Makezine:QuoteReproduced for people unable to click on links and prefer to invent their own information. True, it's one side of the story, but you can't say it is not first hand information.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 12:44:37 am
content: It's kinda funny to read people talking about paying royalties.What's next ? An arduino tax ? Every time you buy one of these boards you cough up the arduino tax whether you use the arduino ide or use avr-gcc ?

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 12:46:05 am
content: QuoteHmm. After you essentially baited them:Quote from: donotdespisethesnakeI guess some people love fanning flames...

author: photon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 12:51:14 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 22, 2015, 12:41:13 amIt seems to be carefully worded (with benefit of legal advice) to avoid slandering Martino while actually slandering him. So first hand, with a secondary legal filter.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 12:55:32 am
content: QuoteWhy? That's one model for funding intellectual property (ie SW) development. If you ever bought a 9600bps modem, the manufacturer paid license fees to three separate entities, just for v.42bis compression. (About $15k total, IIRC.) Similar IP issues almost did-in software file compression utiities, even though source code had been floating around the net for decades before the "problems."A agree that asking distributors (or users) to pay royalties to one company for HW they've bought from another company is a bit ... unlikely.

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 01:37:33 am
content: "Arduino became very successful thanks to the hard work each one of us put into it (and for a long time we didn’t even get a salary out of it)"More Banzi ego, combined with a guilt ploy. Real classy.No credit, not even a mention of Hernando Barragan, Casey Reas, Benjamin Fry and other giants...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 01:42:29 am
content: Quote from: ralphd on March 21, 2015, 11:28:36 pmAFAIK he was complaining about the use of the name, which is completely acceptable IMO.QuoteMany != most. The vast majority would use the Arduino IDE. If it's not in the 90%+ range I'll eat my hat.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 02:23:42 am
content: All I can say is that if the brand suffers (the name Arduino) so will the product. I have no idea how long the arguments have been going on but it sounds fairly early to me.I'm a bit surprised there wasn't an attempt to create a true alternative brand. Although maybe there is one on standby.When it comes to the profit making aspects of Arduino, everyone does it from the Chinese cloners, to every crowdfunding project that relies on one. Why not the designers? It keeps the thing going so I have no problem with that aspect. In fact if we see more of that I'm all for it.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 03:00:17 am
content: this would all be so much better with a licensed IDE that we all paid 50 or 100 bucks for so that the hardware could stay open but the platform development would be funded and live on. It's the same hard lesson of Saleae.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 03:17:37 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on March 22, 2015, 03:00:17 amSaleae is basically a hardware design issue. The design of the early units is so simple that it was easy to clone. It is a good protocol decoder and with free products like sigrok I think that they will have to really get busy to stay in the game. sigrok is still young but at least moving reliably forward.

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 03:35:00 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on March 22, 2015, 03:00:17 amThe Arduino IDE is just a modified version of Wiring/Processing, so it can't be licensed.http://wiring.org.co/

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 03:43:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2015, 01:42:29 amTaken at it's best, yes, he was complaining about knock-offs that copied the arduino uno down to the silkscreen. That's still making a mountain out of a molehill. Go on aliexpress, fasttech, dx, etc and find one of these boards he's complaining about. All I've seen is things like Funduino Dccduino, etc advertised as "Arduino compatible" or "development board for Arduino".QuoteWhich, if true, supports my other point that the credit is really owned to the Wiring developers. It directly supports the uno/328p hardware, and has been improved since the Arduino fork so that it doesn't have a dog slow digitalWrite() - with constant params it compiles to a single sbi or cbi instruction.http://wiring.org.co/download/

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 03:51:35 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on March 22, 2015, 03:17:37 amMore than that. I'm pretty sure the Saleae hardware was just a CY7C68013A reference design.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 03:55:45 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on March 22, 2015, 03:17:37 amIt's a not understanding of where the value of of your work is issue.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 04:03:46 am
content: Quote from: ralphd on March 22, 2015, 03:35:00 amWhich is why the whole open source / free love thing is poor model. These things always blow up and get abandoned. Somewhere between free and a $3000 license should be the accessibility and simple tool chain of the Arduino and the stability of a company that gets paid for doing good work.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 04:11:49 am
content: Hmmm. I wonder if arduino.cc could switch to a donation model for the IDE and only focus on that? I'd pay. And to be honest, the IDE really could use some work. I always felt that they were taking profits over IDE improvements in the past. (And while I'm at it, stop it will all the new boards, focus on what you do best) My 2 cents.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 04:41:16 am
content: It's funny how things catch on. Arduino itself could die altogether (I'm not saying they will) but I bet the "shield footprint" would not. That weird pinout is on everything.One thing is for sure to continue on they have to expand the product. That may take the form of an learning system for micros to be used in schools, hardware, whatever. I do believe that any product needs to be pushed, you stop and it dies.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 04:54:17 am
content: I believe these are the people I called out in this forum that had some kind of kickstarter campaign for something where they referred to themselves as the original makers of the Arduino board or something to that effect. In reality they were a contract firm that Massimo used to assemble the boards at one time.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/smartduino-real-project-with-deceptive-info/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 05:05:00 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on March 22, 2015, 04:54:17 amNot the same guy, this is just someone who it seems used to work for them on the assembly line or some such.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 05:10:38 am
content: At this point, it's unclear to me if funding either side of this shitstorm is worth doing.The money will go to lawyers. Hopefully a third party with the skills to get the IDE ported into something that does not fall under these silly licensing schemes can take over.The only things worth saving are the boot loader and the IDE. The UNO footprint is, and should be, disposed of with extreme prejudice. The popularity of the ProMini says a lot.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 06:41:26 am
content: I find it hilarious that Arduino.cc have a "Trademark Team" to handle a trademark they don't even own!, and have known they don't own for many many yearshttp://arduino.cc/en/Trademark/HomePage?from=Main.Trademark

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 06:42:45 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on March 22, 2015, 05:10:38 amNo need to port, just remove the word Arduino from everything.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 06:53:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2015, 06:41:26 amSounds like we need a naming contest.How about "Sparkticuss" or "Asprino"?

author: FreddyVictor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 08:20:28 am
content: my suggestions:ArduinNewArduine-NT

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 09:46:31 am
content: Quote from: FreddyVictor on March 22, 2015, 08:20:28 amArduimillenium?

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 10:52:31 am
content: Ardvark

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 06:52:23 pm
content: AdrOS XIn all seriousness, I think one of the sides is going to vanish and the process of determining which will be more or less random. Also, after this, the ecosystem will loose strength to diversification. We've seen this happen in countless open source software projects.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 07:04:30 pm
content: ARSARDSoX

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 08:12:19 pm
content: I do think the name will survive and I hope the original company(s) will as well.If your looking for hobby electronics now it easy to use "arduino" as a search term. On ebay that is the easy way to find cheap stuff related to electronics.When I was young hobby electronics was only a magazine and Radio Shack thing. Now it's more of a order on line sort of thing. I suppose closer to mail order than anything. Arduino is the "100 in 1 kit" for beginners. Not as good in reality but still in 20 years it will have been the start for many young engineers. For me that is good enough.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 08:35:31 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on March 22, 2015, 08:12:19 pmWhen I was young electronics was a potato, two pieces of wet string, a bit of tinfoil and a sewing needle.If you were lucky.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 09:34:07 pm
content: Excuse my malice, but as a core member of Wiring I enjoy that their ... odd ways are catching up.The "Arduino Language" was written by the (at the time stdent) Hernando Barragan, and one of founders of Arduino was his professor for his thesis. His thesis was Wiring, and the functions we all know (pinMode digitalWrite et.al). Instead of starting something with the designer and originator of the "language", the professor advised Hernando to open source - then he forked everything and started Arduino. It still pisses me off </rant>They have done wonders for the maker community so I hope it turns out OK though. Whatever that is...ps: I'm presenting my personal thought in this post

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 10:52:27 pm
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on March 22, 2015, 09:34:07 pmThere is a certain amount of karma in the world. Not that I wish bad things on people but I believe if you act with malice it often (but not always) come back to bite you in the ass. They may in fact be suffering from an attack of negative karma.When it comes to positive karma I hope those of you at "wiring" get yours as well. You can certainly pat yourself on the back for helping all the potential young engineers out there that use what you produce.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 11:17:50 pm
content: Has anyone seen a source that presents the dispute from the view of Smart Projects / Gianluca?Also, for those interested (not sure if it's posted here yet) here's the lawsuithttps://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/mad/167131/Thanks for the words pickle9000.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 11:20:25 pm
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on March 22, 2015, 11:17:50 pmI haven't, and if I was him and Massimo isn't telling the whole story, I'd plaster it all over the front page of my website quick smart.So either Massimo is telling the whole story, or/and Smart Projects don't care enough and think they have the upper hand, so best to stay quiet.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 11:32:47 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2015, 11:20:25 pmThat has been my logic too, but it may be that Massimo is just more comfortable with the focus of attention. I've been looking for something but to no avail so far.If .cc tells the whole truth and nothing but - then it should be easy to legally prove that they have their name used in commerce well preceding the registration? Not sure how the law works in the US but in Norway that's all it takes (more or less).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 11:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on March 22, 2015, 11:32:47 pmIt is never that easy with Trademark law.I have it on good authority from a trademark attorney that if Smart Projects are prepared to defend their trademark, then getting back the trademark from them will take upwards of 7 digits in the US.It is a very real possibility that both companies will go bankrupt arguing over this trademark before anyone "wins".Massimo et.al should just admit they got duped and move on, unless they have a deep pockets financial backer who is willing to fund the legal fight.They should take up the Freeduino bannerhttp://www.freeduino.org/declare it the new standard, and forget the name Arduino ever existed.Let Smart Projects stand on their own with their "official standard".

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 11:54:44 pm
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on March 22, 2015, 11:17:50 pmThanks for the link. Very enlightening to read through the legal complaint. If they can substantiate what they state, and it does seem to fit with the history as I've seen it, then Arduino.cc is in the right - at least from an ethical standpoint. Of course whether the court sees it that way depends on the law which may not correspond with the ethics.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:11:07 am
content: That was a very interesting read. They should never let it go to court, what a mess.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:14:27 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 22, 2015, 11:54:44 pmThe law isn't about ethics, it's about the law.And yep, it's a US lawsuit, they will both go bankrupt first unless one caves in first.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:17:14 am
content: I wonder if the board producer (in Italy) will be audited for taxes? Looks like he held back in paying to the group and if that's the case he could be fighting two battles.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:20:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 23, 2015, 12:14:27 amExactly - and that was my point!Occasionally the two are in agreement - thought often not.I'm glad to see it out in the open and hope it gets wide publicity in the Maker community. That way, hopefully, the judgement of the end users will count for something and perhaps in the end be more important than the legal judgement.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:20:21 am
content: The main claim has the whole history:https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/mad/167131/1-0.htmlDamn, it's messy.

author: photon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:20:50 am
content: My guess: they are 2 partners who lost trust in each other because each thought the other was cheating him. Now it's personal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:25:16 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 23, 2015, 12:20:01 amThe judgement of the end user community is the most powerful force in play here, but only if either sides chooses to capitalise on it. Smart Projects have buckley's chance of course, no one cares about them, they have no real name or identity in the community.Unfortunately for Arduino.cc their lawyers will likely tell them to keep their mouth shut lest they harm the case. So this lawsuit might be their downfall in more ways than one:- It could send them broke- It could stop them from winning the war in the trenches where they can so easily win this

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:30:59 am
content: Quote from: photon on March 23, 2015, 12:20:50 amReminds me of the story of some family friends who had a dispute with their neighbor over a fence. It got personal and has since cost them well over $100k in legal fees and has gotten to the point of hiring other lawyers to sue the old lawyers for doing a bad job. 5 years on they are still engaging lawyers....

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:31:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 23, 2015, 12:25:16 amGood points and I agree. I think Massimo's statement in the German Make magazine was a good start. It spelled out the facts (from his viewpoint of course) and was not inflammatory - which would risk turning some against him.It would help if some of the other partners would speak up to reinforce his view. Tom Igoe from ITP at NYU for example.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:37:20 am
content: It must be very tempting to do a brand name change. Cut your losses and get back to work.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:49:08 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on March 23, 2015, 12:37:20 amTo us who have no personal emotional attachment to it, yes. But to them I think it's really personal, they have been wronged and they want vengeance. Lawyers have obviously already sweet-talked them into thinking they can win.They haven't given any hint they intend to give up the Arduino brand.The other issue is that that uses may chose to boycott the Arduino brand altogether, lest their money go straight to the lawyers on both sides. Arduino.cc risk looking just as bad as Smart Projects.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 12:56:54 am
content: Yeah but the Brand is everything! With so many cheap clones available, the branding is all they have, isn't it? - or at least at this point.If they quietly gave up the Arduino name and the Arduino.cc website tomorrow - I think the 99% of users who don't know about this disagreement yet would just assume that Arduino.org is the new legitimate home of Arduino.I think they have no choice except to put up at least a symbolic fight so that the disagreement gets well publicized. That way, if they do it right, they have a chance to win - regardless of any legal decision.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 01:23:45 am
content: What is the USP of Arduino, precisely?Is it the hardware specification and shield compatibility? Is it the programming environment and the Wiring language? Is it the easy plug and play interface to a PC without complicated programming tools?Put another way, apart from the name (which can--perhaps--be trademarked), what is there to make money out of? Is there any IP which can be patented and licensed (other than the name)?It seems to me that the cat is out of the bag, and I am struggling to see what there is left to fight about?

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 01:32:51 am
content: Quote from: IanB on March 23, 2015, 01:23:45 amThe way it reads to me is on one hand you have a company making boards (Smart Projects) and they want a monopoly on boards and board licensing.The other guys seem to betting on some products but mainly on training and course materials (yet to be developed). That may be used for education and so on. They are interested on licensing but not on board manufacturing. In the long term this appears to be a better model (but what do I know?). Maybe like Olimex.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 01:33:24 am
content: Quote from: IanB on March 23, 2015, 01:23:45 amThe Arduino has never been anything special or really new at all.It's just yet another SBC, with yet another easy to use IDE, with yet another easy to use set of libraries, with yet another consistent connector interface, with yet another easy PC bootloader interface.All this stuff has been around decades before Arduino came along, in countless products.It just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right mix of free marketing support (Make, plus the major OSHW players et.al), OSHW warm fuzziness, ease of use, and hence road the rise of the Maker/OSHW movement. It became the defacto standard in a "new" booming industry.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 01:45:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 23, 2015, 12:14:27 amAnd the legal costs will likely be several million *each*. US lawyers have found prompt settlements far less profitable than going all the way to trial, then settling literally just before the gavel falls.Small business never really win a lawsuit. I've seen it over and over. They just implode. In this case it will be mutually assured destruction. Someone just write a nice epitaph...

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 02:02:58 am
content: I'll add one idea. If Adafruit and Sparkfun could swing a joint development team, now could be a great opportunity leapfrog the Arduino IDE & bootloader.Or they could move over to ARM and clean up the MBed to where it's useful.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 02:04:44 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on March 23, 2015, 01:45:44 amSounds like a dog with cancer, take him to the vet and get him his needle. Then you need to decide "Do I get a new puppy?"

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2015, 03:42:32 am
content: QuoteAt this point, it has valuable user community, code base, and distributor network.I used to be on the "unix-haters" mailing list. The idea was that after using real mainframe OSes, this "minicomputer" OS was nothing special, or new; sort of a toy. And where are we now?One could argue that Arduino should be a "foundation" like Raspberry Pi. And I suppose that will remain one possible future...

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 04:52:11 am
content: QuoteAs an interesting example, consider the relatively large number of libraries and examples, even some on the official Arduino "playground" website, that have never been updated to even the 1.0 Arduino API standards. "I tried to compile this example, and it doesn't work with the current IDE" is a FAQ in arduino-land. (And while 1.6 theoretically makes it easier to add third-party hardware, it's enough different than 1.0 that I expect delays in getting various hardware working "to the current standard" as well.)

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 05:27:17 am
content: What Arduino has going for it is a name.- Take a 20 year old and ask him what hobby electronics is. He will probably give a suitable answer.- Take a 10 year old and ask him what hobby electronics is. He will say I don't know most often.- Take a 10 year old and ask him what an Arduino is. I am always surprised how many kids do know what it is. It's one of things things that you make with wires.I don't really care if it's a good system or not. I do care that it is a potential start for beginners and is popular. I'd love to see them kicking around in elementary classrooms.

author: DanHamer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 01:58:04 pm
content: It can be hard starting with any area of electronics partly because its difficult to get an unbiased opinion about what platform you should start with. Dave is right about Arduino being the right system at the right time. But its also its friendliness to beginners that make it appealing. Experienced engineers tend to take their knowledge and the tools they have for granted but imagine your 14 you don't know much and you have a PC and that's it. How are you going to get started with embedded electronics. For just $25 you can buy an Arduino and you've got every thing you need to get going. When I started with PICs it was considerably more expensive to start and there was little in the way of helpful advice.Some people seem to have a problem with Arduino I think because its so popular and they don't get why.Yes its not perfect but I'd say its the worst entry level development platform in the embedded world, apart from all the others.

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 04:25:03 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on March 25, 2015, 04:52:11 amI think it's an example of how not to do open source. Things like Linux (the kernel) and gcc have worked well because of centralized control. During the years that little maintenance was done on the Arduino core and IDE, lots of people forked/branched the code and did their own versions. So while some people figure out which libraries work with which version of the Arduino IDE for their board, some just give up, and others fix the library so it works for them. Such fixes are unlikely to make it into the official Arduino libraries, as very few people are going to be able to write the code and test it so it works on a Uno, Due, ...While I prefer programming AVRs in straight C or asm, on the occasions I do a bit of code on the Arduino I cringe. One example is the new SPI transactions support. Instead of using the API from the due which has hardware CSN support, it kept the old AVR technique of leaving CSN control to the application. In order for that to work with the Due hardware SPI, there's an undocumented kludge where the default CSN pin is one specifically not broken out on the due board.I think the problem is exacerbated by the fact that Arduino is targeted at newbies who don't really know how to code in C/C++. So after hacking around with their Arduino, they cut/paste some existing library code, make a few changes, and post it on GitHub.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2015, 05:13:30 pm
content: QuoteYes, exactly. If arduino.cc/arduino.org explodes in a fireball of legalities and ill-will, what "central control" currently exists will disappear, and being "open source" is not that much of a help in getting it back.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 03:16:19 pm
content: As someone who barely knew what a resistor is three years ago, and entered the embedded world through Arduino, I find these latest developments quite upsetting. Banzi et al. may not have invented the wheel, but one can't downplay their contribution just because he or she were already in this field and learned things the hard way.Thirty or more years ago you could take radios apart to learn how they work and get introduced to electronics like that. Then some shop would hire you for your fixing skills, etc. What's the alternative today? What can you learn from taking apart a smartphone? The components are too small, too specific and advanced. Arduino re-created the hand-on experience for the younger generation.That being said, I have my reservation about the direction Arduino took their business. They seemed to be happy to keep their fans in the gilded cage of their platform and libraries, building more complex and specific boards instead of providing opportunities for deeper learning of the essentials.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2015, 05:27:49 pm
content: @igendelFrom my perspective the issue is that you got your introduction to electronics.

author: PaulStoffregen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 08:15:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 23, 2015, 01:33:24 amBy this logic, there's nothing special about many of the world's most successful products, which took off where predecessors failed to deliver accessibility and usability necessary for mass market acceptance.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 10:08:27 pm
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on March 22, 2015, 11:17:50 pmOn the face of it, looks like a slam dunk for Arduino LLC... but then we have not seen the defense.The informal email chain does not prove much, except to show there should have been formally entered contracts, but that wasn't done. Organisation, and payments, done on the nod it seems.And as the fact that Arduino LLC apparently let Smart Projects file a trademark, and then stop payments, without doing much about it, I wonder how the court view that. Technically, Smart Projects own the trademark, and have been selling "Arduino" boards without a legal challenge by the LLC until now. I would have expected cease and desist letters to everyone selling "illegal marked" boards. Arduino LLC are obviously amateurs, and it shows.I'll agree with Dave, looks expensive.I probably was unfair on Adafruit. It seems that the official distributors (some anyway) have not been informed about dispute at Arduno, only heard from Martino about some changes in distribution. It appears Banzi has not told anyone not to sell boards from Smart Projects, despite his talk of "fighting for Arduino".Then I additionally discovered the history of Wiring and Arduino - Barragan's and other's work, and there are some unanswered questions over Banzi's role as supervisor, then later exploiting the student's work.On the subject of Open Source, I don't see this as a failure of an OS business model. Arduino LLC were (are) actually doing very well with a Open Source software (IDE and libraries), and Open Source hardware. The cheap clones have not killed them, arguably they are a benefit. It's because there is now a valuable business, that the founders can afford a legal fight. The dispute is over the one thing that is not open, i.e. the trademark.Really this is a story of a thousand small businesses where the original founders fall out over the direction of the company (and profits thereof), and end up fighting for control.In the end then, I conclude it's best to leave Arduino #1 and Arduino #2 sort it out by themselves (or die trying). It may result in two viable companies carrying the Arduino name, Arduino(software) and Arduino(hardware). Or, a big heap and someone will pick up the pieces...In the meantime, even according to Banzi, we should pursue "business as usual".Ps. a final amusement from Arduino.org :Quote

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 10:13:56 pm
content: Just noticed there is a statement of sorts from Federico Mustohttp://arduino.org/blog/1-the-new-blog/to-the-makers

author: photon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 11:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 27, 2015, 10:13:56 pmFascinating read.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 11:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: photon on March 27, 2015, 11:37:01 pmAn awful lot of "Arduino®" on that page. I wonder if he is doing a little stab and twist?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2015, 11:54:08 pm
content: Have Arduino.ORG said anything about starting an online forum (likehttp://forum.arduino.cc/)?I was once in the top-10 of contributors in that forum (and the its predecessor).But I picked up all my toys and left in disgust because of inept management.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 12:22:26 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on March 27, 2015, 11:54:08 pmIt will be a hard struggle to create a new user community. If you google for an Arduino problem you end up on arduino.cc

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 12:59:47 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 27, 2015, 10:08:27 pmThe interesting thing here is that Smart Projects put on their very own packaging "manufactured under license to Arduino LLC", and a photo is in the court papers.But yes, Arduino LLC didn't do enough to control or stop this guy, and seems to have had a very laissez-faire attitude until they finally sued, amateur hour indeed.QuoteOn the surface it seems that it was open source, so Massimo was certainly within his rights to go and form a company to build a market from that. And they have always attributed Wiring et.al as is expected.I guess the only question is here is why (if he didn't) invite the Wiring guy to join the party.QuoteThey don't have the money to win it unless the defendant folds or runs out of money.QuoteI think a lot of people won't want to support either side now and will move to just buying clones.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 01:05:40 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 27, 2015, 10:13:56 pmWow, they are clever, pitching themselves as always having beentheArduino company, even though all they have ever been is the contract manufacturer (Manufacturing in their own words "Under license to Arduino LLC", and 1/5th of the original founders.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 01:08:44 am
content: The Wiring guy did ask the Arduino to join up or something but was met with silence.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 08:42:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 28, 2015, 01:05:40 amNot "contract manufacturer", but "those who turned an idea into reality"Kind of like Foxconn always being the true iPhone company.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 08:48:17 am
content: Quote from: igendel on March 28, 2015, 08:42:37 amGood analogy!

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 10:37:53 am
content: There should be some news coming soon about the future of arduino.cc - My hands are tied to say exactly what.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 12:15:08 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on March 28, 2015, 10:37:53 am*licking lips*

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 12:32:32 pm
content: QuoteVery cleverly worded, as it can mean anything from "contract manufacturing" to "full engineering".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 01:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 28, 2015, 12:32:32 pmBut in the same line they clearly admit it is nottheiridea!

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 03:34:20 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on March 28, 2015, 10:37:53 amhttp redirect to .org or vice versa?Alexander.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 04:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 28, 2015, 12:15:08 pmOn the Arduino forum about a week ago there was a rumor of an "imminent" announcement - nothing yet. It seems negotiation is going on, even if a decision is not reached.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 04:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on March 28, 2015, 10:37:53 amMy bet is the bar they used to drink at turns out to be the rightful trademark holder and that they are announcing a new line of IOT coasters with blinky LEDs.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 05:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on March 28, 2015, 04:41:01 pmMe --->

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 10:12:50 pm
content: @EEVblog This whole thing could make for a good rant if you need contentanddare to step into that snake's nest (not sure I would)...In any case I think a retrospective, after we know the outcome, would be really interesting.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 10:35:13 pm
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on March 28, 2015, 10:12:50 pmYes, I was holding out the other side side of the story, which we now kind of have with the slippery-smiley response from the smart projects CEO.It's a mess though, and requires a lot of research before flying off the handle about it I think.All I know is that the losers are the community, and if they aren't careful, both companies will find themselves alienated from the community and/or out of business.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 10:58:12 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 28, 2015, 10:54:31 pmI just found thishttp://www.theamphour.com/242-cant-we-all-just-get-arduino-tardiloquent-trademark-tirade/. Currently playing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 11:17:46 pm
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on March 28, 2015, 10:58:12 pmI wouldn't recommend it, that was 30 minutes of me ranting completely incoherently. I don't think anything sensible came out at all!

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 11:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 28, 2015, 11:17:46 pmNo worries, I'm entertained. It's 00:24 AM so this not-so-serious friendly talk suits me fine!The 'portalab' thing also had me googling and churning on ideas. No sleep for me tonight...

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 09:52:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 28, 2015, 12:15:08 pmI'm going to modify that. Now I'm told it seems it didn't happen/delayed for the foreseeable future. (something about lawyers - blah, blah, blah blah....)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 10:02:13 am
content: Quote from: george graves on March 30, 2015, 09:52:28 amAs expected. Both companies will go bankrupt fighting this. Too bad for them.Perfect opportunity for someone to come along and take advantage of the mess.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 10:09:48 am
content: I'll add (and this is only my guess - not anything I know) is that arduino.cc has to play the part of the "wounded bird" from now till it's resolved to make their case stronger. It's beginning to smell more like a divorce preceding then a trademark issue.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 10:43:43 am
content: Anyway, the Arduino-Formerly-Known-As-Smart-Projects don't waste time releasing new boards and shields. I wonder how much of that is "inspired by" something the other guys did before the fighting started, or was planned specifically as part of the fight. It looks like they're trying to get a strong foothold in the maker world, fast.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 02:15:29 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 30, 2015, 12:09:11 pmDon't bet on it. Foolish pride and American lawyers are a deadly combination for small businesses.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:42:36 pm
content: BTW: does anyone know what is the SmartProjects (or better Martino's factories) producing apart of arduino boards?

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 11:18:07 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on March 30, 2015, 04:42:36 pmNothing else that I can find - other then on a web site they mention arduino based controller for drones. Their "factory" is actually very small looking. I'll let you judge the "state-of-the-art-ness" of the factory.http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2407This must be the room where they drill and etch the copper.The only modern machines seem to be the pick and place.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 11:20:31 am
content: QuoteSeems very nice.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 11:26:23 pm
content: Wow, looks like the balkanization has already begun.I thought that Adafruit (Limor Fried) was sympathetic to the originators, but I just saw this on their website....The ADAFRUIT METRO 328. Which is apparently an Arduino but with out the "Arduino" name, or even ___duino name.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2015, 11:45:54 pm
content: All clones still depend on the IDE. That's where main value of all this is. And if both Arduinos die, there would be no one to maintain the IDE.I'm not sure how much Arduino IDE gets from community, but it can't be much. And I'm not sure that Adafruit can do anything in that respect.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 12:59:12 am
content: The impression I got from Adafruit is that officially they are "not supporting either side" (although it seems pretty obvious which side is the "right" side to be on), but seem to be keen to exploit the situation by selling their own Arduino-clone boards.There seem to be a few companies who would like to be "official US manufacturer" for Arduino.cc, and take the place of arduino.org, I think. So whatever the talk about "being excellent to each other", it's really about the chance to make a buck.I have heard of a few distributors unwilling to cooperate with arduino.org, but for the larger ones like Adafruit I expect that Arduino sales are a decent size chunk of business which they don't want to give up. There is also a chance that arduino.org may win, and then the distributors who backed the wrong horse could find themselves cut out altogether.I guess the rumored "big announcement" never happened, and the legal case drags on?

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 05:10:46 am
content: Note sure what Adafruit does, but Sparkfun also have their board, Redboard, but they pay royalties, I would guess Adafruit does the same?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 05:29:59 am
content: Royalties for what? If they don't use "Arduino" in the name, then the only way they have to pay anything is if they want to maintain good relationship with the Arduino team.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 05:35:31 am
content: I think Adafruit's view ispretty clear.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 06:02:11 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 28, 2015, 05:29:59 amhttps://www.sparkfun.com/news/1791

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 06:38:36 am
content: So here's some what ifs.- One or the other wins the IDE could still die, so could either company or both.- Make up time, the get all lovey dovey and make lots of cash (without the lawyers running them into the ground).- Just like with IBM the clones take over and the IDE is like Microsoft supplying to all vendors for a fee or free.- Is the platform going to live (even under another name) regardless of the arguments.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 06:46:31 am
content: Since it's all open source the only thing that can die are the companies involved. For users, the worst case is that the projects get splintered with no clear "main" branch. If you have the "Sparkfun IDE", the "Adafruit IDE", the "Seeed IDE" and so on, each with small differences and tweaks, it can get really confusing for newcomers.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 06:56:20 am
content: Quote from: andersm on April 28, 2015, 06:46:31 amOpen source can die just like anything else, you need to force the issue to make it live. When I say force it needs to be profitable to the retailers and manufacturers of the hardware. Without a good IDE it's just a bunch of parts on a board to Joe Public. A direct model of support from (retailers, manufacturers) is common.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 07:02:12 am
content: There are other players that use the Arduino IDE, Intel for their Galileo and Edison. Papilio and Papilio Duo. Maybe others?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 07:06:08 am
content: I would not use the word "use" here. "Leech" is more like it. As soon as makers leave Arduino, Intel and other would be the first to abandon it, since they have zero interest in maintaining it. But having "Arduino" in the name is what make people learn about the platforms.There are a lot of powerful boards that have Arduino-compatible connector layout, but by my observations nobody uses them, or Arduino IDE to program those boards, since it is plain awkward.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 07:18:13 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 28, 2015, 07:06:08 amThe connector is an item I think will have staying power. It forces standardized connection places, the same thing is what made the IBM clones work was adherence to a standardized bus.The connector increases compatibility with other products. That increases sales.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 07:48:11 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 28, 2015, 06:56:20 amAll it needs is someone interested enough to hack on it.As for the board vendors, my guess is that those who have the resources would fork their own branded versions with support for their own boards (though underneath they would all be pretty much identical). Over time, they might start diverging as each gets their own tweaks and additions. The smaller vendors would probably keep on using the last release until the day some future Windows version breaks compatibility.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 07:49:08 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 28, 2015, 07:02:12 amTeensyhttp://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_download.htmlLaunchpadhttp://energia.nu/

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 08:07:20 pm
content: Did Adafruit just extract itself out of the Arduino mess?Adafruit METRO 328http://www.adafruit.com/products/2466Same specs and form factor as an Arduino UNO, but not one mention of Arduino on the whole page.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 08:51:40 pm
content: Quote from: andersm on April 28, 2015, 05:35:31 amI wouldn't say that it is clear at all. On one hand they are saying they want to be neutral and not seen to be supporting either side; on the other they are doing this twitter type "#teamarduinocc" campaign. They say they are paying royalties to arduino.cc, that's great, but they are still selling all the boards made by arduino.org. All arduino.org need to do to win is for distributors like Adafruit to keep selling the arduino.org boards and piling up the cash. Cash is king when it comes to legal fights.This "made under license" packaging statement is already a part of the court documents filed by arduino.cc, I don't think getting further examples will help much. But if Adafruit want to stir up a bit of internet rage then fine.Ironically, when I questioned them about whether they should be selling arduino.org boards, they banned me from their website, accusing me of "internet rage"!It took a long while for Adafruit to decide that Makerbot weren't a good company to do business with either.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2015, 11:23:39 pm
content: Quote from: chicken on April 28, 2015, 08:07:20 pmIs there a rule against saying on the first line (in the ad) that it's an "Arduino clone" and has a bootloader installed? This would make it easier to sell (I think). Perhaps even put "100% softfware compatible with the Arduino IDE".

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 01:56:06 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 28, 2015, 11:23:39 pmI think you would at least be safer saying "ArduinoTMclone", though I know nothing (my name is not John Snow though1) .1: I just had to use that GoT reference, sorry

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 02:00:02 am
content: Derivative of "Arduino UNO R3 Reference design"in Tech Specs

author: ralphd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 03:33:02 am
content: Quote from: andersm on April 28, 2015, 05:35:31 amAnd yet for all the money that Adafruit gives to Arduino.cc, the IDE still doesn't come with support for Adafruit products like the trinket...

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 04:14:38 am
content: So here's the news.https://blog.adafruit.com/2015/05/16/big-news-adafruit-is-manufacturing-arduinos-for-arduino-cc-in-new-york-new-york-usa-arduino-teamarduinocc/Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 04:21:43 am
content: So they found a new CM. What's the big deal?PS: Plus, have not Adafruit started their own clone of Arduino?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 04:38:10 am
content: Interesting interview with Massimo about this. Here comes Genuino!

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 05:02:43 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 18, 2015, 04:21:43 amAdafruit isn't a CM. (They never have been for anyone)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 05:21:46 am
content: Except for themselves. And now they want to expand their business. And the risk is very low. The platform is screwed up anyway, so minor problems with manufacturing along the way will not be noticed. I say it is good news for Adafruit, and irrelevant news for Arduino. There are dozens of other CMs that can start mass production of this board in a week or two. They just don't have hacker/maker appeal and resulting product won't be made in the USA.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 05:44:17 am
content: This gives added legitimacy to Arduino.cc IMO. Adafruit has chosen a side, which is no small thing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 05:48:29 am
content: Quote from: george graves on May 18, 2015, 05:02:43 amSo how will they do the volumes?Are they expanding their manufacturing?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 05:49:56 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 18, 2015, 05:21:46 amAdafruit would have likely carried whatever boards CC got another CM to produce anyway, so it just gets them extra margin.Maybe some upside in PR from partnering with Adafruit perhaps, but isn't much different to if Adafruit had just supported them anyway.AFAIK Sparkfun for example are much bigger than Adafruit.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 06:03:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 18, 2015, 05:49:56 amExcept that now we know they will not be selling boards from Arduino SRLQuoteIt will be interesting to see which Arduinos Sparkfun will be selling now. I believe they've had a friendly relationship with Adafruit.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 06:12:59 am
content: In the mean time, everyone went meh and started buying Chinese clones for 1/4 of the price...

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 11:17:16 am
content: Quote from: smjcuk on May 18, 2015, 06:12:59 amI disagree - You have to understand how powerful the arduino brand is. Yes. You, me and most people on this forum would buy a generic "atmel 328 dev board" for $4.But not the general public. My sister knows what an arduino is - and she's never soldered or programmed anything other then a microwave. Yet, she knows the name. Guess what she will buy for her kid - and arduino.QuoteNope - only 0.01% of people(guestimate). Why do you think people come up with names for things like this? uCurrent? Arduino, Rasberry Pi. It's all about the brand.Quote from: EEVblog on May 18, 2015, 05:48:29 amI can say that adafruit only runs their PNP 8 hours a day. When visited by samsung PNP guys/gals, the tech were agasp by that. They are use to having the machines to 3-4 shifts. So I would say they have a ton of capability. But if you really want to know - ask Phillip during an ask-an-engineer. I plan to! I would like to know as well.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 11:26:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 18, 2015, 05:48:29 amAdd a night shift perhaps?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 03:44:34 pm
content: If they sign a proper paperwork, they might have enough money to justify buying another PnP machine. As I said, I perfect opportunity to expand the business with a very low risk level.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2015, 05:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 18, 2015, 03:44:34 pmIf they're only running the current one 8hrs a day, they don't need to buy another, especially if it's for a large run that isn't going to need regular new setups - just need to hire someone for nightshifts to change reels & stack boards in & out.They may need to invest in selective or wave solder for the pin headers though.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2015, 12:18:11 am
content: They have two PNPs. One is a SAMSUNG SM482 - forget what the other is(another samsung). They are tied together - so one can place part of the load, and the other one the rest.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2015, 05:12:33 am
content: Quote from: george graves on May 19, 2015, 12:18:11 amThey expanded the manufacturing capacity some time (one year?) ago with a Samsung SM481. Plus IIRC they have also a fairly capable stencil machine.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 06:20:32 am
content: I notice that Arduino.org has a new blog entry as well:http://arduino.org/blog/1-the-new-blog/the-full-story-1It paints a slightly different picture of "Smart Projects" than I had had. I thought that SP was a generic PCB manufacturer/assembler that happened to pick up the Arduino deal, but whose main contribution was probably a willingness to produce the boards under unusual and somewhat risky terms. ("You build these with less up-front funding than usual, and you will be THE supplier that everyone comes to. If we succeed." Or something like that.)But the blog entry implies that SP was put together and built up solely for the purpose of building arduino products - "and now they're taking it away."They could both be partially true; the period in question including some rough economic times, , and perhaps things did not work out as originally expected. And actual actions matter too. It certainly looks to me as though the .org group has done things that were ... not right.The sad part is that there is probably plenty of business for both of them, if they were to pick separate subsets of "stuff", instead of battling...

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 01:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on May 22, 2015, 06:20:32 amBear in my mind these .org posts are written by Federico Musto, who was never involved with Arduino before he bought out Martino and decided to take on/copy arduino.cc head to head. In my opinion, the way Musto turns things 180 degrees from reality suggests he is slightly mad.I believe that the original 4 "Arduino founders" brought in Martino to handle the manufacturing side as a fifth "Arduino partner". This appears to have been arranged informally via email, and then money was transferred around bank accounts... the less the taxman needs to know the better..Having read through the court submissions, it's a real old mess. I think the judge will likely throw up her hands and say "you are a bunch of amateurs and now you expect me to sort it out for you?" Absent a verifiable, formal legal basis on which entity owns the name, she might be tempted to declare all trademarks void.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 02:00:58 pm
content: A rpactical question from all this mess...I'm planning a thesis project that does data logging in a hostile environment.My plan was to use 3 Arduinos and a a bus load of sensors (haha god pun). What should I use? What should I buy?(Arduino UNO's where the original idea)

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 02:03:33 pm
content: If it's a hostile environment, not arduinos. They blow up if you fart near them.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 02:16:31 pm
content: Hostile as in "outside in Belgian weather for 3 months" not as in "bath of Chlorine trifluoride"...Need one data point, with time stamp, every second from 5 sensors on two test devices for 3 months non stop.Saved locally on USB and remotely via wifi.The electronics are not the focus of the thesis, it's just a part of the tooling, so I want to get boring and reliable stuff.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 02:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 22, 2015, 02:16:31 pmIn that case: buy a readily made solution and don't mess with electronics. It may be fun but you are likely to lose data.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 04:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 22, 2015, 02:42:01 pmReadily made solutions hit the budget wall... Plus I've yet to find one that does environmental measurements & force at the same time.I cheched the Siemens ones (school has the software) but even using free base elements, the sensors make unaffordable. And I don't want to make sensors...So my short list was Arduino, R-pi, Ti school lab dev kits.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2015, 08:54:07 pm
content: QuoteArduino, R-Pi, don't have RTC. (Don't know about TI) For a logger, a RTC is kind of necessary...

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2015, 08:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on May 25, 2015, 08:54:07 pmThat's what the expansion header is for, is the idea.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 10:29:40 am
content: Quote from: nitro2k01 on May 25, 2015, 08:56:31 pmI'll start a separate thread for this with a "boxes & arrows" plan.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 04:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: gildasd on May 22, 2015, 02:16:31 pmThis litigation shouldn't affect you if all you need are three UNOs.BTW, you may want to check thishttps://www.sparkfun.com/products/9530

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 05:03:35 pm
content: Thanks - I'll look into it.Seems interesting...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 02:06:47 am
content: https://youtu.be/k_Elf1XBsQ4

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 12:02:53 pm
content: Genuino as a new name. How ingenious is that!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2015, 03:16:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 02, 2015, 12:02:53 pmYes, its a great' name, and the boards will be 'Made in Manhattan'.http://makezine.com/2015/05/16/arduino-adafruit-manufacturing-genuino/

author: samofab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 08:13:53 pm
content: Another piece of the puzzle in the Arduino story came to life:http://arduinohistory.github.io/(By the guy who wrote Wiring)

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 08:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: samofab on March 04, 2016, 08:13:53 pmSeethis threadfor recent discussion of this.It's an interesting read and I suspect pretty accurate accounting of the history. Although with these type of things there is always more than one side to the story. The author seems to have a bit of an axe to grind - perhaps justifiably. But then I'm sure Massimo Banzi has his own perspective and would likely dispute some of what the author presents as facts. Regardless, I'm sure Hernando Barragán deserves more credit than he has gotten.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2016, 04:06:12 pm
content: Eh I went to buy a few Arduinos after a year and a half and now I run into this.I really don't know what to say, I'm kinda tempted to buy from the .cc guys given how they put in all the work to maintain the IDE, but at the same time I kinda dislike it when design companies fuck their manufacturers over and move production overseas. Also this Barragan article is really not working in favor of the .cc peeps.I wonder, are all Genuino boards sold in the EU "Assembled in the EU", or have some of you run into Chinese ones?

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2016, 05:21:17 pm
content: Buy any arduino you want, but please do send a donation for the IDE software development. That's the only way things will get better. If everyone kicked in a few bucks, good things could happen.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2016, 05:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 26, 2016, 05:21:17 pmMy idea exactly. Things around Arduino are messy but IMHO it is best to buy from the folks who do the actual development.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2016, 09:30:09 pm
content: Quote from: Sigmoid on July 26, 2016, 04:06:12 pmThere are plenty of Chinese copies, clones, work-alikes, and counterfeits.And there are work-alikes in every way except claiming any name even resembling Arduino.Adafruit appears to be actually manufacturing the American product officially for Arduino.And they make/sell a variety of products in the compatible and work-alike categories without any reference to the official name.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 05:08:35 am
content: Quote from: george graves on May 18, 2015, 11:17:16 amYour sister (buying the name brand) is probably typical. But likely, that would be a one-time purchase and stays in the drawer after blinking the first LED. Folks who works with it more eventually will learn that there are stuff out there at 1/4 the price. The second board, the third "shield" or module... so on, would likely be the 1/4 price clones.Schools are perhaps the more reliable name-brand purchasers. Schools are spending tax-payer money. There is no such thing as "too expensive" when someone else is paying.Speaking of schools, I am in the school of thought that he who owns the IDE owns the show. Arduino.org can make whatever board they want to make, if Arduino.cc (say now called itself MCU-4-U) doesn't support it, how is this Arduino-Minus-One even going to blink the first LED? (Uno was last year, Zero was yesterday, now into sign bit must flip).Without the IDE, in a few months, even schools will stop buying them. Most teachers will need the IDE's example "blink" to run before they would (could) include it in their class. For the many other schools that may keep the Minus, they would likely not leave school-grounds (because without IDE example "blink", it could seem so difficult to blink the silly LED). So they cannot expect students to be revenue streams. At some point as support drops, even the Chinese Cloners will stop making cheap modules for the "minus" -- because here is no ready-made library for their cloned modules and they wont invest in writing it themselves. The lack of general enthusiast support will quickly kill the whole line. Lacking such omnipresence support, Arduino-Minus-Two will never get off the drawing board.Can you imagine Google without google.com? That would be Arduino without IDE.MCU-4-U can just find other revenue source, such as $ for official-seal of support. More dollars to have better integration into the IDE, and may be links to the shop...I think IDE is the real show here...

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 03:24:02 pm
content: QuoteSure, in theory. But the IDE doesn't generate any income, nor do the forums.Quote"Supporting" a board to the extent of having blink work is pretty trivial, and Arduino.org is probably quite capable of doing that themselves. Or "partnering" with a chip vendor to have that done (Arduino 101). Supporting the full "Arduino core" isn't too much more difficult. Supporting the full set of "standard arduino libraries" is harder, and supporting "all the arduino libraries and examples that have ever been posted on the Internet" is close to impossible. (Arduino Due, from arduino.cc, has languished somewhere in that state of limbo where "too much doesn't work right", despite several years of "support.")I'll be very curious to see how the arduino.org "Otto" does.For their next board ("Primo"), arduino.org is essentially soliciting outside developers by offering free hardware. (Which is somewhat how Open Source happens. But it's still pretty scary, given that it's a triple-core wonder-board and I'm not sure how it's supposed to work.)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 03:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on July 29, 2016, 03:24:02 pmYeah, that is why I closed the last reply with:Quote from: Rick Law on July 29, 2016, 05:08:35 am"Official seal of support" will do well for manufacturers such as Adafruit (which I use) and Sparkfun (which I also use). They have to think of some way to get some money out of those using the Chinese clones. They are not likely to want to spend any money on it.Perhaps a "per download of IDE", $ for extended help, what not. Finding a revenue source that can eliminate or leverage the cloning issue is the game.May be lobby congress to extend the anti-human cloning law to cover MCU devices... Congressman, oops, not PC, I mean Congress-persons... Congress-persons by-and-large are so stupid there will be congressman who vote for it at a modest contribution.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 04:22:08 pm
content: I make a habit of donating a few bucks when I download the IDE. But, if you want to kill Arduino for good, just charge for the software. Even a $1/download paywall would start riots. "Makers" do NOT pay for software. This has been covered here so many times it shouldn't even need restating.Saleae clones, Rigol hacks, FTDI drivers, Eagle ... the only acceptable price for software to a "maker" is free or the effort it takes to steal it.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2016, 01:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 29, 2016, 04:22:08 pmI should put this on a t shirt and wear it at the next faire