EV tires - Buying the wrong tires can decrease range by 30% - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 06:12:41 pm
content: Why is it when it comes to EV vehicles and range no one seems to mention LRR tires are required. I just replaced the tires on my Volt and was quoted by the “expert sales staff” at three different trie shops anywhere from $700 to $1200 for a set of four tires. Why the such a large price difference? Turns out EVs require LRR tires to get the range.If you have an EV and install NON-LRR (from what I have read) your range range will decrease by 30%. None of the “expert sales folks” at the tire shops seem to know this. Image buying an EV with a 300 mile range. Installing a new set of tires and losing 100 miles off your range. I can see owners and auto “experts” blaming the range decrease on the batteries when in fact it’s due to the tires.Why is it no one has mentioned this?Or if they have, I’ve never seen it mentioned.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 06:16:36 pm
content: Why would this be specific to EVs?Surely ICE vehicles have to overcome the same rolling resistance, given the same tyres and similar kerb weights?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 06:23:03 pm
content: Surely someone scammed you to buy expensive tires. There is some difference but it's not even 5%. And it's not limited to EV. Would you trust someone claiming their tires will save 30% of fuel?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 06:28:00 pm
content: https://www.consumerreports.org/tires/low-rolling-resistance-tires-can-save-you-money-at-pump-a1547901110/QuoteSo if there was totally no rolling resistance which is of course impossible, you could get 11% energy consumption savings at best.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 06:43:46 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 06:12:41 pmFirst off, the 30% statement is horseshit. Second, how can you claim that your expert sales folks don't know about this when they were the ones that were recommending the expensive LRR tires? Or were they simply recommending expensive tires?Your Volt takes a fairly standard tire size. Most tires in that size will be fairly low rolling resistance. Most EVs, including your Volt, do not have the type of high-pressure ultra-LRR tire you would find on something like the BMW i3 or the original Honda Insight. Those have some significant drawbacks. Instead, you simply have a conventional tire that is on the lower end of the rolling resistance range, like the Michelin Energy Saver model.My Focus Electric BEV and Honda Accord both take the same size tire and they were both originally equipped with very similar 225/50R17 Michelin tires. The main difference is that on the heavier Focus, the tire pressure is higher (39psi vs 32). Otherwise, both manufacturers have good reason to optimize their efficiency within reason. I replaced both with the same model of Yokohama Avid Ascend GT and there is no discernable range or efficiency difference. I pay close attention to that figure and the car even displays the Wh/mile figure, so I can tell you that any difference is less than 5%. I think I paid $550 for the tires, but they might be a bit more now.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 07:13:31 pm
content: Thank you for all of your replies. But have any of you done any research to support your claims? Doesn't look like it to me. Yes the Volt takes a standard size tire. If this is all horseshit, why do most of the tire manufactures make LRR tires? And the reason I think none of you know what you are talking about is why would GM go to all of the trouble to purchase LRR tires which cost a premium instead of non-LRR which would have saved them a bundle on costs.@bdunham7 The way I found out about LRR tires was from folks in the Volt forums. All of the "sales experts" in the tire shops didn't even know about LRR tires.As for the claim there's a 30% range decrease for non-LRR tires take a look in the Volt forums., these are their claims. Wikipedia is saying there can be up to 15% loss. So factoring in people in the car industry bullshit like crazy, the 30% or only the loss would be conservative if you ask me.But as I stated I DON"T KNOW. I'm just repeating information i have found in forums posted by good people like you.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 07:34:33 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 07:13:31 pmI gave you my research. My BEV measures its energy usage to 3 digits and also recalculates and displays its range every morning after charging. I changed the tires and didn't see any large difference. Certainly not 5%.There isn't a binary LRR vs non-LRR distinction here. Unless you are comparing to some old bias-ply F78-14 retread, there isn't going to be all that much difference between the OEM LRR tire and a normal modern tire in the same sizeand performance rating. True ultra-LRR tires do not come in the same standard sizes--they have much higher pressure along with much narrower profiles and shallower tread.As for why any OEM (not just EV makers) choose a particularly low LRR model even though it might have compromises elsewhere, the answer is that they get a small improvement on their CAFE and range numbers and that is important to them. And they don't spend that much more, if any at all, on those models. Radial tires were introduced primarily because of their lower rolling resistance and the LRR-optimized versions have been around for 3 decades.You might read this three-part article from Tire Rack. It's basic, but tells you pretty much what I'm telling you.https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=29

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 07:43:32 pm
content: One thing to consider is that LRR tyres (like Michelin energy saver) lose grip when it gets cold & wet and make a lot of noise. I prefer comfort and (more important) safety over saving a little bit so I choose softer tyres.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 07:48:08 pm
content: QuoteDid you read what I posted and click the link? If tires contribute 11% in total energy spending in worst case, how different tires can make the difference more than that? Then there is a tire comparison table with about 30% difference in rolling resistance between the best and the worst. Which would result in <3% difference in total energy consumption per distance travelled in best case with numbers given. It's more like you DougSpindler have nothing to back your claims other than saying that somebody said so.QuoteIf tires contribute <15%, then you cannot possibly improve more than that even if flying frictionless. And it's considering the worst possible vs unreachable ideal. Not to say average tires are much better than the worst available to begin with.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 09:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 29, 2022, 07:34:33 pmHold on a second... You tell me to read an article and jus skimming through it I see they say,"tire rolling resistance represent about 25%.at highway speeds. I may have learned math in a public school, but 25% is a heck of a lot closer to 30% that 15%.I'm by no means an expert, but a 25% decrease in range is more likely what a typical EV driver is going to be concerned about. If can battery range on a trip is 300 miles non-LRR tires would reduce the range by 75 miles. That's a pretty big hit in my opinion.One has to ask if one can get even 15% more range with LRR tires why aren't' they on all vehicles? That would save billions of gallons of gasoline and reduce car emission/green house gases. So why aren't we doing it?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 09:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 29, 2022, 07:43:32 pmSorry, your not making sense, please explain. If the tires are making a lot of noise then they are less efficient as energy is being wasted as sound.I purchased the Michelin LRR (which came with the car) and don't find them to be loud at all. Can speak about losing grip and I have never spun-out or hit the car in front of me not being able to stop. Not sure about I could tell if they are more constable or not as the seat is very confrontable.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 10:33:03 pm
content: Suspect wraper touched on where this 30% number comes from, I would perhaps believe a non-LRR tyre is 30% less efficient than an LRR one, and I could also believe that somebody at some point made the incorrect head math of "30% less range", and finally I could believe a bunch of internet laypeople going "wow, yeah that's bad!" without thinking.If your LRR is 30% more efficient, and your LRR contribute 10% of losses, then going to standard costs you 10*0.3 = 3% less range, not 30%

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 10:40:32 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 09:59:35 pmJust try different tyres. Over the decades I have had several sets of Michelin energy saver tyres and the experience is that A) they are loud and B) slippery on wet roads which gets worse as temperature gets in the single digit Celsius. A couple of years ago my wife got her talked into the Michelin energy savers and her car got very loud and had notably less grip. After that I had the tyres replaced with Dunlop Bleuresponse -my default tyre model- and noise was much lower (I could hear the engine again) and grip dramatically improved. Yes, both type of tyres have the same size. Now maybe you are going to argue 'I always drive safe' but others don't and having good grip means the difference between 'whoops, that just went OK' and a crash. Again: I care much more about comfort and safety than trying to save a few cents. Turning the AC on makes a much larger difference.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 10:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on October 29, 2022, 10:33:03 pmI see where you are coming for, makes sense.... But is your concussion correct?Because then I find this...Tires and wheels can have a huge effect on electric car rangehttps://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128745_tires-and-wheels-can-have-a-huge-effect-on-electric-car-rangeandhttps://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130265_here-s-how-tire-and-wheel-choice-affects-electric-vehicle-rangeAND whey would automobile manufactures opt for more expensive LRR tries when they could have installed much lower cost non-LRR tires?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 10:44:23 pm
content: Quote from the article:Automakers often fit electric cars with low-rolling resistance tires to maximize range, albeit often at the expense of handling, as these tires offer less grip than conventional tires.I rest my case. No sane person should trade safety for saving a few cents.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 10:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 29, 2022, 10:44:23 pmWell we know auto makers have NEVER implanted safety features unless forced to. They are always into saving a few cents. But why install LRR tires which cost a premium IF as someone stated for a 3% gain in range. Makes no sense or dollars to me.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:08:14 pm
content: Range is a big thing on BEVs so anything that increases range helps to improve the 'unique selling point'. It is all about marketing.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 10:48:47 pmHow can you come to that conclusion when you have no idea what the additional cost is and what the companies need to achieve in range and CAFE?Why do you post silly examples like replacing 16" normal (LRR-ish) tires and wheels with 18" soft-compound high-performance models?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 29, 2022, 11:08:14 pmSo your telling me the car companies are going to change $500-$1,000 more to get 3% increase in range. That would be what 6 or 9 miles on a batteries with a range of 200/300 miles respectively?NO - WAY!

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 29, 2022, 10:44:23 pmMost people probably aren't too savvy. When I drove a range of work vehicles, the standard tyres that came with camrys and equivalent economy vehicles were borderline acceptable in the dry and terrible in the wet. Braking was compromised severely, and understeer was reached quickly. But that is probably the most common tyre on the road. These aren't even the extra low rolling resistance types.I usually hold out for specials on Bridgestone Potenzas. But something equivalent like Michelin Pilot sports, Yokohamas or Continental are fine too.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:36:23 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 09:52:59 pmDo you think what you wrote here is a logical argument that supports your conclusion? Aside from getting the math wrong, you're assuming that LRR tires have NO rolling resistance, or something like that. And as far as why 'we aren't doing it', as I said OEMs have been using specific LRR tires (that have other compromises like traction, tread life and ride) for 3 decades; in addition the primary feature of radial tires in the first place is their inherently lower rolling resistance over their predecessors. If LRR tires saved actual big money, corporate fleet managers would be all over them.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 11:24:08 pmWhere did you get that number?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 11:24:08 pmYou're telling me you believe they pay remotely close to retail prices for tyres?Their profit margins could fund interstellar travel.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 09:52:59 pmThat’s a question that answers itself. I think you’re putting 1000x more credence to a tall tale told on a forum and sales "info" from a tire store than is justified.Indeed, if these tires would increase efficiency by 15%, you would have heard about it before talking to Prometheus on the Volt forum and lots of cars would have them as factory fitment.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:42:00 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on October 29, 2022, 11:48:41 pmOne would rather vehemently protect his stupid purchase rather than admit he was duped. Like audiofool will never admit magic crystals they bought do not improve sound.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 09:40:16 am
content: Quote from: wraper on October 30, 2022, 08:42:00 amOh, your right…. Tire companies give tires to car companies and aren’t interested in making a profit.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 09:56:06 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 30, 2022, 09:40:16 amYou believe in magical 30% economy but not in manufacturers paying lower prices. Not to say often there is not that much cost difference in manufacturing compared to retail price difference. "Premium" products often get much higher markup than average. Haven't you ever seen the same device sold under premium brand costs 3x more? Like Der-EE DE-5000 selling for $100 and it rebranded as IET for $300+. BK precision, Lecroy and others putting 3x markup on re-branded products, and similar. GM won't pay 3x markup for a component unless there is no alternative, they know how much it actually costs and will simply switch to supplier with a better deal.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:52:59 am
content: Quote from: wraper on October 30, 2022, 09:56:06 amDude read and comprehend what I have written in my post. I’m asking the question, not proclaiming I have all of the answers like you. For some reason you seem to think LRR tires are premium tires. I never said that, and have never been told that. What I would suspect is the reason for the increased cost is the raw materials and manufacturing process is more costly. I highly doubt the tire companies are just taking their lower cost tires, labeling them as LRR and making them 20-30%. There are performance differences as other posters have started. Then you have people calling me a fool for paying bit more to buy the same make/model of LRR tires that came with the car.In my opinion, stupid would be doing as you and others suggest. Buy the less expensive tires and get a 25-20% reduction in range as what has been claimed in several articles I posted. Then, as I previously stated, these same idiots will claim the reduced ranger is due to battery degradation rather than increased friction drag due to using the wrong tires.You know, I’m trying to learn which is why I made this post. There’s no reason to insult me or anyone else who posts here who is trying to learn an become smarter. You too were once the student and I’m sure asked many silly questions. Why not be supportive and foster a positive supportive learning environment in Dave’s forums? Dane is all about leaning which is why I and others are here.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 12:01:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 30, 2022, 09:56:06 amTypically a retailer has a 30 to 60 percent margin on for things like tires. Before that there is a whole-sales layer that also takes a margin. A car manufacturer does not have all that overhead. They likely buy tires directly from the tire manufacturer at 5% to 10% of the retail price.On top of that tire manufacturers could give a discount just to have their tires on their cars so consumer would choose the same tires when they need replacing. It could make sense to have high profit margin tires fitted. OTOH my experience with tire fitters over here is that they like to fit the tires they sell the most (=with the best profit margin for them) and don't care much about what type / brand is already on the car.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 03:32:25 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 30, 2022, 10:52:59 amI did buy slightly less expensive tires, but the main reason for getting them was improved NVH characteristics. And I'm not claiming that range reduction was due to battery degradation because I didn't observe any significant change in energy per mile or range. I believe I may have mentioned this earlier, but you haven't responded. I suppose since I didn't publish some puff-piece article my story is just 'anecdotal'. The article you posted (did youreadit?) was about replacing tires withmuch more expensivetires of a different size and performance category. Much larger tires with a soft, sticky tread compound, much more rolling resistance. Nothing at all to do with buying ordinary replacement tires.QuoteI'm not so sure about that...

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 04:23:02 pm
content: EVs are heavy...and so maybe need special high pressure tyres so that they stay well solid, and reduce friction.Ill say this.....trains are said to use 70% less energy than cars for the same journey...and thats because they have rock solid iron wheels, which have super low friction on the rails........so i think this is what its about here.For those heavy EVs, you need a damned solid tyre, that can withstand the high pressure thats trying to force it off the wheel rim....otherwise, a kind of squashy tyre will have mega high friction.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 04:38:06 pm
content: I learned this years ago… Another reason trains are more efficient is when they travel it is in a forward direction because of the rails. Car/buses while moving forward also move side to side (in the same lane) as there are no rails to prevent lateral movement.I don’t most people including the folks who sell us tires know much about the friction coefficient of tires. It becomes noticeable when you ride a bike and the amount of effort/human energy required to pedal a bike with fat vs. skinny tires. And under inflated tires vs. properly and over inflated tires. Huge difference. Same when you have a wheel barrow full of dirt and try and push it. Huge difference when pushing through mud, dirt, on a board and on a cement pathway as well.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 04:55:16 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on October 30, 2022, 04:23:02 pmQuote from: DougSpindler on October 30, 2022, 04:38:06 pmWhy do I get the feeling, those accounts are the same person?Please tell me I'm wrong.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:03:51 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 30, 2022, 04:55:16 pmYou're wrong.Doug goes by his real name and IIRC is a fellow Californian. Obviously our perspectives differ, but I've no reason to doubt any of his basic facts, like owning a Volt, etc.Treez et. al. I have no idea about, but he appears to be on your side of the pond. He's a hard nut to crack.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:04:45 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 30, 2022, 05:03:51 pmHe's certainly a nut anyway.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:14:23 pm
content: I had recently (about 4 months ago) replaced the stock Michelin Energy Saver A/S Selfseals on my 2017 Bolt EV with CrossClimate2s, which are not marketed as LRR tires. The cost difference is minimal ($221 vs $202), though I found the CrossClimate2s on sale for about $170.I noticed a drop in range, but it wasn't very significant - max range reported in the summer is typically about 260 miles, which dropped down to about 230. These are estimates from the car depending on previous driving habits and current state-of-charge (I have the 'hill top reserve' enabled, so the battery stops charging at 80%). The Bolt has an 'energy summary' feature, which shows a breakdown of how the battery was used. It splits up the driving into 'Technique' and 'Terrain'. I noticed that the percentage allocated to 'Terrain' went up, which I'm guessing is how the car interpreted the extra rolling resistance.One thing I did notice was a dramatic increase in road noise. The CrossClimate2 tread pattern is noticeably deeper than the Energy Savers, I wonder if that's why. The car is also grippier around corners, it used to routinely chirp the tires with the Energy Savers.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 30, 2022, 05:03:51 pmThen please explain, how come, that user, was apparently, used as a Treez genetic, sock-pocket account (alt-account), a while ago, originally.E.g.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/uk-pm-favoring-hydrogen-powered-cars-over-electric-in-the-uk/msg3195388/#msg3195388https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/uk-is-doing-something-about-man-caused-climate-change-no-more-coal/msg3196520/#msg3196520Note the UK's in the titles.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 30, 2022, 04:55:16 pmThat’s an easy one. It’s because you are wrong.Unlike so many people who hide there identity behind screen names to promote mis and dis-information I have always used my real name. I have nothing to hide…. Except that I don’t know everything about everything. Some dicks in this forum have called me dumb/stupid/daft for asking questions and wanting to learn. Or using “critical thinking skills” to question other poster’s replies that do not make any sense. Why would I create a second account? What would be the purpose?Let me ask you why do you think I’m posting using twoo different accounts? What CREDIBLE evidence has brought you to that conclusion?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on October 30, 2022, 05:14:23 pmThose are radically different tires! What made you choose those? If you need or want the additional wet and snow traction, sacrificing a bit of range is probably worth it. As mentioned in the Tire Rack articles I linked, there is also a big difference between worn-out tires (less RR) and tires with full tread, especially squishy tread. Tires like yours, without circumferential ribs and grooves, could probably be called 'HRR'. Good for winter driving, though.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:39:29 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 30, 2022, 05:20:51 pmI don't see the Treez connection there at all. It's just Doug being Doug AFAIK. If Doug claims to be fired from Twitter's server power supply division because Elon wouldn't show him the schematics, then perhaps I'll revisit my opinion.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 30, 2022, 05:31:50 pmThat's why - had a near miss last winter! The CrossClimate2's were highly recommended on various Bolt-EV forums, and I was prepared to buy separate summer tires if the range reduction was unacceptable. I think I can live with it for now.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:56:44 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 30, 2022, 05:31:50 pmIt's not just rolling resistance, but the difference in circumference between new tires and worn to 2/32" is around 2%. The car odometer and range-guesser don't actually measure miles/kilometers; instead they approximate that by reference to tire rotations. Worn tires give more rotations per mile than brand new tires.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 06:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on October 30, 2022, 05:49:54 pmBack when I lived in winterland, I would have two sets of tires/wheels for winter and summer. That kept the OEM alloy wheels out of the salt as well.Michelin and a few others have had 'all-season' tires in that general pattern for some time and they're sort of opposite from typical all-season tires in that they are actually winter tires that are OK for summer, not the other way around. Energy Savers are marginal in winter when they are new, I can't imagine what they'd be like if they were nearly worn out.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 06:12:16 pm
content: No, no no. Elon fired me because he wanted me to show him how the Space Laser were used to start all of the wild fires in California and Oregon as well as all of the food processing plants just politicians in the US congress have been telling us. And as our congress folks have been trolling us, these lasers are controlled by the Jews who are trying to cause a food shortage this winter by starting fires at all of those food processing plants. Elon being “Jewish” and now in control of Twitter wanted to know the power source for the Jews Space Lasers.Funny the US congress folks have claimed the Jews have only used there Space Lasers to start wild fires and fires in food processing plants in the US. Guess it’s nature or lighting that’s caused those wild fires in Australia, Greece and Italy. Guess Jews only like starting fires in the US, according to US congress elected officials.Now before you say I’m spreading conspiracy theories., do some fact checking. I’m not saying Jews have Space Lasers…. What I am saying is our elected officials in congress have been telling this to fellow elected officials, to their supporters and to people who don’t have a brain.With Elon in control of Twitter and saying he’s going to no longer ban accounts promising free and open speech on Twitter things are going to get interesting as this human experiment continues.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 30, 2022, 05:22:59 pmQuote from: bdunham7 on October 30, 2022, 05:39:29 pmAttempting to answer both of you, at the some time.I accept that I could easily be wrong here. I haven't found or got, extensive compelling evidence.The Treez fellow, mentioned before, unfortunately, sometimes has a habit of making various alternative accounts.There is some weird connections, between the accounts. But it could just be a coincidence and/or me trying too hard to find new/more Treez accounts.I'm still NOT 100% convinced, there is no connection. But need to keep an open mind, and assume there is NO connection, until proven otherwise.In summary, I can't supply (enough) decent evidence, that they are the same account.In fact, on looking for proof of connections, in order to make this post. Actually, there is a lot of things to differentiate, the two users. If they later, did turn out to be the same person. I'd have to tilt my hat, in appreciation, of all the hardwork, in making them appear to be different individuals.In other words, I've probably fooled myself in spotting such a possible connection. But it was just a bunch of coincidences.EDIT: Also, I found rather strong counter-evidence, that they are DIFFERENT users. Sorry, for (apparently) getting this wrong. I'll get my hat.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:40:17 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 30, 2022, 07:00:08 pmI think you responded with the best possible answer anyone could give. And who knows, you could be right, and I'm just not aware of it. I could have multiple personality disorder, be in an alternate universe or be a mass electron entanglement. Then again I could be a scammer. (But someone would have to tell me what kind of scam I'm pulling with multiple ID. I'm not smart enough to figure that one out. But maybe we should apply Occam's razor here.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 07:55:31 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 30, 2022, 07:40:17 pm(Sorry again), I think the mistake I made, seems to show similarity to this thread.Does it resolve around misunderstandings or even slightly/partly/fully intentionally vague information (by the car/tyre sellers/dealers)?Because the overall effect, of the tyres rolling resistance, on the cars fuel or electricity consumption rate, is rather small. Perhaps only 3%, or 5% on the outside. (According to one or more, internet sources, read BEFORE I was replying like this, in the thread, so I can't so easily link to them).Since the tyres rolling resistance, is only part of the cars energy losses. The biggest loss, must surely be the air-resistance (drag), which is relatively huge, at higher speeds. (ignoring significant energy conversion losses, in petrol/gas engines, and other power sources).Reading this thread, seems to indicate, that there is confusion, between a percentage change in a cars rolling resistance (perhaps 30%), and the over all, loading on the cars engine and/or electric motors. So it wouldn't be 30% range reduction, it would be considerably less than that, as there are a number of energy losses, in a car. Hence me suggesting 3% or 5% (possibly tops).As already stated, even low rolling resistance tyres, are still going to have losses, as well. Even if they are proportionally less.Tyres in general, tend to have a lot of marketing claims, to sell more expensive tyres. If this thread was true, tyre manufacturers, would jump at the chance, to offer tyres which save 30% of the fuel consumption and increase range by 30%.In other words, this thread, seems to be failing the sniff test (common-sense testing).

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 30, 2022, 07:55:31 pmI here what you are saying, but some of the links I provide (I believe) contradict your conclusion.I'll be the first one to admit I'm confused by all of this. But here's my thought. If the LRR tries do in fact save on gas and extend battery range I would think every car sold in the US would be sold with LRR tries. This would greatly reduce exhaust emissions per mile drive and increase EV range. But they don't... So 3-5% loss for non-LRR tries makes sense.But they why do the car manufactures go to the added expense of installing LRR tires on EVs only to get a 3%-5% increase in range. In a Volt the batter range would be extended by 2 or 3 miles. That makes no sense and certainly no cents for the car companies.I'm just saying something just doesn't sound right here. I'm sure I'm missing something which is why I'm posting.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:26:02 pm
content: Bold added by me, to highlight the main bit I'm trying to answer.Quote from: DougSpindler on October 30, 2022, 08:09:13 pmActually, that is a very good point (or counter-argument).Which was covered, in at least one of the articles, I was spurned into reading, because of encountering this thread.It explains, that it is the often severe regulations, around cars, over things like emissions, carbon footprints, and other rules and regulations, in the USA (other places as well, to various extents, but this seems to be a USA orientated thread, so I'll leave that out).So, there is only a limited amount of things a car manufacturer can do. Various low-hanging fruit changes, have already taken place. Such as higher efficiency engines, engine start-stop systems, weight savings, reduced car drag (e.g. streamlining the body shape).Therefore, using more fuel efficient tyres (even if the real overall savings are perhaps only 2% or 3%), is something else the car manufactures can use, to obtain even better (lower) emission figures. Due to the difficult/tricky new rules, that keep on getting put into law.As already stated, by other(s). Because car manufacturers, buy so many millions and millions of any car parts they need. They probably have entire buying departments, who can painstakingly negotiate bulk discounts, on other types of tyres, and get quotes from a number of tyre suppliers. To reduce the manufacturing cost impact, of different tyre types, such as low rolling resistance ones.Which I think, probably explains your query.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:32:34 pm
content: Adding a bit of miles to EPA range makes them more attractive. I'm pretty sure in average it allows manufacturer to increase the cost more than additional expenses for tires. You may think 3% is nothing, but surely 300 miles rating is more attractive than 290.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 30, 2022, 08:26:02 pmNot at all. If LRR tries cost the same to the car companies then why aren't the car companies installing them on every car to meet the stringent emissions/millage requirements imposed by California and Federal government? I paid more for LRR tires so I'm sure the car companies with their bulk buying still have to pay a bit more as well.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 30, 2022, 08:32:53 pmThat makes sense, as well. Further research, seems to indicate, that the low rolling-resistance tyres, do cost a fair bit more. Because they have to use special materials (it still looks like a conventional tyre, though), in its construction.Information Source:https://www.kwik-fit.com/blog/fuel-efficient-tyres-can-save-you-moneyIt seems as the more fuel efficient tyres, do cost a fair bit more, it might take a while, before the fuel savings can pay for that extra cost. The car manufacturers, are more interested in getting their car inventory sold and out of the door, as opposed to saving the end customers, money, in the longer term. As any fuel savings will add up over time. So it might take a number of years, to accumulate the full money savings in fuel purchases (or electricity recharge costs), depending on how long those tyres last.I don't really have the actual normal-Tyre vs fuel efficient tyre costs (that car manufacturers have to pay), so I can't really calculate how and why, they do or don't, fit the tyre types that they currently do.From my source (above), I'm surprised as much as 20% of the fuel consumption, can be due to the tyres. But on the other hand, even more fuel efficient (low rolling resistance tyres), will still gobble up, a fair bit of that percentage, depending on the circumstances. That is, perhaps you can save 5%, but not anything like the up to 20%, that they are using.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 09:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 30, 2022, 08:32:53 pmPerhaps you got hosed because you didn't know better? Most OEM passenger car tiresareLRR to some degree, they are not uncommon at all. I've attached a list from Tire Rack of models they sell that are considered LRR. There are a lot of tires on this list. And as I've said, LRR vs non-LRR is not some binary decision, rather all tires have a 'rolling resistance coefficient' and there presumably is some cutoff where they are considered LRR. The tires I got for my old SUV are on this list and I didn't pay more for them, at least not within my comparison window. If your comparison window includes off-brand tires (that are never, ever used by OEMs) and such, then perhaps you and I did 'pay more'. OEM LRR tires could actually cost a little less because one way of making them LRR is to simply reduce the tread depth. You have zero information to show that LRR tires cost more, except your story that you believe you paid more without stating what tires you were comparing.https://www.tirerack.com/landing/fuel_efficiency.jsp(Click on "Low Rolling Resistance Car Tires" at the top)Interestingly both the Yokohama Avid Ascend GT and the Michelin CrossClimate2 mentioned earlier are on this list. Hmmmm. I guess the LRR designation by itself might not be too helpful?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 09:56:14 pm
content: The issue of the effectiveness of LRR tyres on an electric vehicle vs a gasoline powered vehicle is muddied by the variation of gasoline engine efficiency vs load. For example, if you reduce the rolling resistance on your gasoline powered car then you can proceed at the same speed with a lesser throttle opening. Fuel is saved. Good. But another effect of this lesser throttle opening at the same engine rpm is higher manifold vacuum which means greater pumping loss and reduced engine efficiency. Usually the improvement by reduced load is greater than the loss because of higher vacuum. The opposite also applies. Greater load increases fuel consumption but also increases engine efficiency so the increase in fuel consumption is not as big as it would have otherwise been. With an electric vehicle it would be much simpler. 5% increase in load would probably mean very close to 5% increase in power consumption and a proportional decrease in range.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 30, 2022, 08:59:53 pmyeh, tyres are "up to" 20% of the total, it is never going to be zero so you'll never gain 20%

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 10:24:43 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 30, 2022, 10:13:32 pmAlso, if I understand things correctly, a significant part of that figure (up to 20%), is the actual drag (air resistance) of the tyres profile. Which (stating the obvious), can maybe be improved upon, but fundamentally, will still be present, even if the tyre formulations had no-friction, internally, due to the rolling of the tyre.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:28:45 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 06:12:41 pmI'm calling completeon that.My tyres will need changing soon and I'm going to get normal ones. Reports I've heard at that it makes very little to no difference in range. No way it's 30%, it wouldn't even get to double digits.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:30:04 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 30, 2022, 09:30:00 pmOur other petrol car has the same LRR tyres as my IONIQ.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 11:51:26 pm
content: Here's a long but detailed explanation with actual laboratory tests. Unfortunately it looks like there still are not any published RR specifications.https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/pria-rollingresistance.pdf

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 12:12:07 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 30, 2022, 11:51:26 pmThat is a great source of data! Different tires have commonly 30% different rolling resistance (on typical car synthetic tests), a long long way from 30% difference in overall energy use. But the killer quote you should have pulled out for everyone to see:Quote from: National Highway Traffic Safety AdministrationThey even do the economic cost benefit trade-offs just to drive it home how little effect there is.

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 09:52:25 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on October 29, 2022, 10:41:39 pmI don't think the rest of us are the one with concussion, frankly!

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 11:25:31 am
content: This is the kind of discussion that everyone have a different opinion based in their own testing.Mine is simple: back in 2008 when I bought my car (Renault Clio III Phase 1 SportWagon) it come by factory with the Michelin Primacy tires. After 4 years the tires stopped wearing down, the rubber got harder and the efficiency of them in rain and cold conditions got diminished.I exchanged then when they made 6 years, with still enough thread for 2 more years (I made at the time an average of 10000KM per year) because they were unsafe when I needed them (during the rare months where it rains and its cold in Portugal).At that time exchanged for Continental SportContact and never had the problem with the tires losing his grip during all their usable thread.At the same time I had in the company work car (Renault Clio III phase 2 Van) the Continental EcoContact and those tires were average at best, but never as bad as the Michelin I had in mine. But the grip in the rain and cold was less than the SportContact ones by a large margin. I later changed them with approval to the same model (30€ more per tire).I don't exchange safety for savings.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 12:55:34 pm
content: sales people are non technical, they will say anything and imagine incorrect explanations that they will not challenge themselves to verify if what they come up with sells more product.Many people mis-use/understand numbers. For example, there was a craze in the media about research into the increase in the risk of cancer from red meat of 20%, I mean pretty big huh? yes but the risk of cancer was something like 0.001% in the first place, so that 20% was actually 0.0002%, the 0.001% is your rolling resistance normally, that thing you just can't rid of anyway, the 20% is the improvement you are being sold, in a relative comparison 20% is huge, but actually it amounts to ppm in the "grand scheme of things" or in absolute terms. It's a common misunderstanding of correctly given data and often a common excuse to misuse the data for false representation.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 02:29:37 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 31, 2022, 12:55:34 pmThis is very difficult to over-state. If someone online posts something about a percentage, it's around 50/50 that their conclusion will be off by a factor of 100. How many people repeated that "for what Bloomberg spent, he could have given every American $1M!"? I heard a morning radio show talking extensively how the Powerball is so big that every American could be given $1M [they argued that the cash jackpot is $500M and the number of Americans is around 330M, so simple division tells you there's a million bucks per person, which is mind-blowing to me that you could F that up so badly...]

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 02:41:18 pm
content: I suspect the difference can be larger than just a few % if all you do isroll aroundin city traffic all day long at very slow average speed.It's never going to be anywhere near 30%, though, under any even remotely realistic condition.If your usage pattern is long hours in city traffic, then any modifications to reduce unnecessary electronic loads will pay off, too, but most mods wouldn't be supported by the manufacturer and would void the warranty or require a lot of expertise to pull off. Easiest is to not use A/C or heating.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 05:11:11 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 31, 2022, 12:55:34 pmdouble your chances of winning the lottery, buy two tickets instead of one ...

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 06:06:06 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 31, 2022, 05:11:11 pmWe had an infinite increase in the murder rate in our city a few years ago. Went from 0 to 5.Percentage Increase=Final Value−Starting Value/Starting Value ×100It was at an Airbnb rental. Turns out there have been over 700 shootings/murders at Airbnb's since the one where I live.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 11:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 31, 2022, 12:55:34 pmSome of the "best" sales people don't even need to lie or say anything incorrect, they use clever emotional or manipulative language to suggest something which they are all too happy for the customer to misunderstand (having never technically lied). Give them a strong understanding of the actual technical details and they will use if for driving their commission/bonus, not for improving the world or helping the customer.Its pretty easy to imagine how a poorly educated or easily confused person takes true statements such as: 30% difference in rolling resistance between tires, 30% of drag is from rolling resistance, and/or someone reduced their fuel use by 30% after changing their tires to XXX (classic scam in anything related to fuel economy, pick a user who started paying attention to the fuel use and modified their driving behaviour after installing magic do-nothing widget). Then completely misunderstands the context or engineering and imagines their new tires will make huge differences to their fuel consumption.Changing oil can make a similar scale difference on fuel consumption as tires do, different variants of the "same" model can have invisible/un-noticable aero changes larger than this. Driving behaviour usually dominates in dino-explosion powered cars.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 11:42:19 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 31, 2022, 11:18:02 pmlike shops advertising a sale with "before up to 1000, now from 100" , that could still be true if not even a single price was changed

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 11:58:56 pm
content: You've got to love marketing.What's the best deal? 'buy one pair, get one half off'. "half-priced" "buy one gets one free", are they the same?But friends, we are talking about the car industry in capitalist America. (I'm sure it happens in Europe and I know it happens in Australia.) When have the auto makers ever told the truth about anything? Heck over 125 of GM's customers had to loses their lives over the ignition switch failure. GM for years hid the truth about the deaths they were causing.The Ford dealers where I live, except for one, have been charging $10k to $40k over MSRP during COIVD. Instead of being kind to the people in the community who have been buying cars from them for decades they gouging them. And when the President of Ford told them to "knock it off", they continue to do it. The car companies are just pure evil. And don't get me started about lies when it comes to the servicing of cars. The Service Managers at the dealerships really screw women over with services they don't need such as changing the blinker fluid in you car or truck.This guy is kind enough to show you how to do it for just a few dollars. This reminds me, I need to change the blinker fluid in my Volt...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 12:41:14 am
content: It is a pity he didn't show the blinker fluid types with the snow globe effect and glitters. My wife loves the version with golden glitters.