Apathy in engineering and technical trades - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ferroto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 02:47:37 am
content: I'm not an engineer I am a computer guy and have been since I was 8 when I got my first computer and started messing around in a dos environment.I'm currently in college doing a 2 year networking program, after which I plan to take a CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Administrator) exam.The problem is I'm the only person in the class that actually cares about networking. Hell one person was a deck hand on an oil rig before starting the program. The material has been dumbed down to reflect this. I'm in my third semester and my first test was in linux\UNIX administration, I got 100%. The second test was on windows client, 89% (don't like windows as much as Linux. and I just did another test and expect a similar mark.All tests thus far have been multiple choice with questions such as:1) What command would you use to access the UNIX Manuel.A) Help B) dirC) ? D) man2) What command is used to view the file "~/file.text"A) cat ~/file.text B) echo ~/file.textC) sudo ~/file.text D) cat "~/file.text" <---- cheekyDon't get me wrong, these instructors aren't just random people chosen to fill a role. My UNIX instructor has been a network admin for over 20 years, my hardware instructor has an EE background as well as a CS background we talked about all kinds of things and both instructors have a lot of story's/knowledge and love to share it. The problem I suspect is that management needed to pass these students for statistical purposes to justify the program and the solution is to dumb down the program so that a retarded monkey can pass the course.Last term we did a course on windows Active Directory which was the most brutal thing on the planet. even I found it a challenge. I was hopeing that this would weed out the people who don't give a shit. but the final exam which was valued at 40% had theEXACT SAME QUESTIONS AS THE PREVIOUS 4 TESTS, WE WERE TOLD THIS IN ADVANCED AND PROVIDED WITH A COPY OF THE CORRECTED OLD TESTS FOR STUDY PURPOSES.Needless to say this was a blow to the "Social Darwinian Forces" that both me and society were relying on to produce competent IT people.I was hoping that I could expand my skills with this program. The only thing I will gain with this is a piece of paper. A once great and noble industry has been overrun by apathetic douchebags.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 03:27:57 am
content: Apathy? Who cares?Seriously, though, a lot of the IT people I have run into seem to go through their day like zombies---I wonder if they arethe result of similar courses!I've also run into people with Advanced Certificates & Diplomas in Electronics,to whom Ohm's Law is a new & startlingconcept!Most of them are good at IT though,so it seems that they would have been better to have taken the IT course,rather thanone they obviously had no real interest in.VK6ZGO

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 06:10:12 am
content: Quote from: Ferroto on May 27, 2011, 02:47:37 amYour observation is not new, I have seen things like this happening since the '70th, an that was probably in another corner of the world than where you are now.A few factors add to it. One is the strange idea that no-one is too stupid to learn anything, and talent is not needed. In the US they have a "no child left behind" program, other countries have similar stupid systems. They typically include that one is never allowed to disappoint a child by giving a low grade, or negative feedback at all. And discipline is anyhow not required. What once started with children has reached higher education now.Another factor are that higher-ups, up to the political level, want to have a high percentage of graduates. They can sell that for multiple purposes, especially in times where blue-collar work gets rare. "Look, you can be a brain surgeon, too".If you combine that with the promise of good pay down the road, then you attract all the wrong people (BTW, the massive outsourcing going on in the industry will mean that the pay won't be that good in the future) .The process effectively moves the "Social Darwinian Forces" further down the roads. What was previously sorted out by schools now needs to be sorted out by employers. If the employers don't do it, the customers must.Although, the IT industry is a special case. Customers rarely have an idea of what separates the good from the bad ...Quote... therefore I have to correct you here here. IT is the ultimate rippoff machine, one of the most shady industries. And that is not new. It was always full of liars, fakes, clueless, thief and conman. There was never anything noble in that industry. When was the last time a non-trivial piece of software, hardware or service delivered exactly what it said on the box? The general public has just been trained to look away, accept that it must be this way (which it must not), and pay through the nose.BTW, while a CCNA isn't the worst, it is also kind of a rippoff. A lot of the material you need to know is vendor specific (Cisco), and you need to renew the certificate every few years. Cisco benefits most from it, because you need to keep your knowledge about Cisco gear current. Cisco's hope is that people recommend and use what they know and feel comfortable with. But they still charge you for the certificate and the renewal.Another issue I have with the CCNA certification and other certifications is that they largely rely on memorizing things instead of understanding things. And that the things one has to memorize are stuff I would never waste time with to memorize. CCNA includes parts where you have to memorize LEDs, cable product numbers and bit mask in the boot PROM. Extremely narrow, vendor specific stuff. My position is that as long as I know where to find such information it is good enough for me. I'd like to use my brain capacity for more important things.

author: A-sic Enginerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 06:43:54 am
content: Please, be aware / cognizant of the boundaries of which you speak.I will not say that a good IT person isn't worth there weight in salt, and it does take some know how and experience, but please do not use the term "engineer" in the same sentence. It's a slap in the face to those of us that have busted our hump to scrap our way to the level where we deem ourselves worthy of the title "engineer".Equating the knowledge and skill and day to day job of what you're speaking about to an "engineer" is like calling an EMT a neuro surgeon.But to directly answer your comment / question / observation - yeah, it happens. You even see it to a certain extent in the engineering fields. People manage to get through it and graduate with some kind of meager grade. But what happens is when they hit the real world, the true colors will come out.

author: Ferroto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 10:14:29 am
content: Quote from: A-sic Enginerd on May 27, 2011, 06:43:54 amI didn't call network administration an engineering trade I called it a technical trade this rant applied to a much broader scopeAlso there seems to be the misconception that all admins do is sit around, drink coffee and reformat problem computers. Say you needed to create 500 user accounts in an active directory you could do so manually or write a vbscript. I'm currently working on a script that can read a CSV spread sheet for usernames paired with default passwords and what group said user is part of. Each time HR hires a person they would enter into an idiot proof application the name of the person and the department they are in selected from a droop down box.The art of networking is not running around like a mad hatter trying to fix every IT problem. It is about automating the regular mundane tasks that would send any normal human being to the loonie bin.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 07:06:32 pm
content: Quote from: Ferroto on May 27, 2011, 10:14:29 amI disagree, the true misconception are that those people believe that they will have a stable work by becoming admins.I had work to set up systems that use Satellite ( real time data ) for the stock market.I had just to install the monster , not operate it .And so I had to:install the satellite dish on the roof .Pull down the cable .Install the digital receiver in the main server .Install the OS on the server ( NT4 or Win2K Pro )Install UTP wiring and hubs and Network cards.Set up the local network = about 20 clients .Install the client software application about the stock market data, In all of them.Well If you compare me with an Admin , I Look like God,and still , never managed to get an stable income by doing all those ..Some times I think, that the luckiest people in the world , are the ones who works in a bakery.You do not need to know that much , and still you get payed and have an stable work.Kiriakos ..Microsoft MCSE Windows 2000 Server ( But no exams .. they was costly , but the book was much cheaper)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 08:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on May 27, 2011, 06:10:12 amYes I agree.I went to a shitty college too where any retard would pass the course. The dumbing down seemed to start from day one, at first everyone would have to pass a written exam and were ony given one chance at a retake if they failed and they could only achieve a pass grade during the retake. Then they decided to allow students to only retake the questions they failed at, then came open book tests and finally we were allowed to take papers home with us and copy each other's work and we realised they didn't even bother changing the papers from one year to the next so we could copy the previous year's students work. That was all five years ago and I hope something has done about it since.QuoteThe employers have started testing candidates applying for jobs. Where I work we just lost a wireman who claimed to be leaving because he's found a better job when it's more likely it's because he was sick of people telling him how shit is work was. I was stunned at his incompetence, an indicator lamp had failed on a panel, I asked him to get me a new bulb and he came back with a huge 25W beacon lamp when it was obviously far too large to fit the holder designed for a 1W bulb.QuoteYes, if Windows crashes and someone looses their work, people just accept it but they wouldn't if the same thing happened on a PLC running a production line.QuoteI imagine the MSCE isn't much better either. I don't see why an employer would take such a shitty qualification seriously.