Bare bone PC - recomendation? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 12:23:46 am
content: Hi I am planning on investing in a barebone PC + a small screen.I know that I can "just buy the biggest I can afford but I would like to hear your opinion on a PC only for Electronic lab usage. That include USB interface, Recording of video for documentation, designing of PCB, internet access and maybe an open source office pack.What would you recommend of CPU, i3-i5-i7 speed, Ram size and so on?

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 07:05:56 am
content: Thanks, I am not planning on using the PC as oscilloscope or connected to DUT. It's more a PC for configuring test gear, record cam and search for datasheets and so on.I think I'll use win 10 but will block windows 10 from talking with MS, block google, facebook and so on, from telling anything.For camera usage and maybe recording, do I speculate if I5 2.5MHz is not about minimum?I do also think of saving as much power as possible but a laptop will be almost unusable since the screen and keyboard only works if I let it be open and within writing distance oor buy an extra screen and keyboard. So a barebone iss properly the least power consuming?It looks as if a normal PC is cheaper but what about wattage?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:19:03 pm
content: For a minimum system, I would use one of the AMD Ryzen APUs which have built in graphics on a smaller motherboard which has *four* DIMM slots because you will be more limited by RAM than CPU or GPU performance.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 16, 2020, 03:00:08 amThey are not equivalent, Ryzen 3300x has much higher performance and has SMT. EDIT: it's on par with i7 7700K and even a little bit better in most tasks.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:32:46 pm
content: I have always eyed those small Intel® NUC PCs but don't have one.https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc.html

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 09:34:09 pm
content: Thanks a lot!The question is just if the barebone's are much more expensive, compared with a "normal" mini pc? It can't be cheap to cramp it all into such a small unit?About cpu vs ram, yes ram do often mean more then cpu, as long I do not get a to slow cpu. That's why I did suggest a min core i5 2.5 (do not know AMD's names) but do in mo way mind if it's an AMD, such as the one suggested above.On the other hand do I hope to get the PC as cheap as possible, since it's only meant for lab usage.So in short, barebone or mini PC?Min 8Gb ram?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 11:24:58 pm
content: Dell Optiplex small form factor (SFF) PCs are really good, and available cheap.Gun for an i7 with 16GB RAM, should be possible for less than $300

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 12:03:35 am
content: The OBS site says this "Even the most powerful consumer CPUs can still struggle with the load of encoding a high-resolution, high-fps stream." Your requirements for streaming pretty much limit you to a high performance CPU. If you are intending to stream or record HD video at 60fps then look around to see what works for others. If you don't need live streaming and recording then get a decent camera to record video and encode it at leisure.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 01:01:01 am
content: Quote from: FriedMule on May 16, 2020, 09:34:09 pmStandardized commodity hardware benefits from economy of scale compared to more specialized single board computers making it more economical. It is also easier to maintain and upgrade if necessary.I am actually thinking about doing something similar but with ECC support which unfortunately requires using a separate GPU unless I can get one of AMD's "Pro" APUs which are only made available to OEMs.

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 01:12:32 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 16, 2020, 11:24:58 pmSounds really great, do you know a place were I can get it to about that price?In Denmark do it look more like $2500

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 02:23:00 am
content: Quote from: FriedMule on May 17, 2020, 01:12:32 amHe is likely talking about obsolete 8yo garbage.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 02:35:07 am
content: A while back I bought an off-lease Lenovo desktop. I don't know exactly how old it is, but it cost only $150. It has an i5-3470 and 8GB RAM. I'm pretty sure it will do everything the op asked for.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 08:43:53 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 17, 2020, 12:03:35 amWhat they're saying is to use a GPU or other hardware encoder for real time encoding. For 1080p, $30 gets you a LKV373A HDMI capture box with built in hardware encoder.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:52:47 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 17, 2020, 02:23:00 amI am talking about something like this:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Optiplex-9020-SFF-i7-4th-Gen-1TB-HDD-16GB-RAM-Win-10-1GB-Graphics-Card/383546585104You would probably want to add an SSD drive, so the total cost probably goes up by another couple of hundred $.New machines will not run significantly faster than an i7 at 3.6GHz with 16GB of RAM. Leave the new $2500 machines for people that have never wanted for anything in life!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 02:17:10 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 18, 2020, 01:52:47 amYou can get Ryzen 3100 for $100 or 3300X for $120, $45 motherboard, 16GB ram for $60, PSU/case for $50+. Besides lacking of old slow garbage HDD which I won't trust anyway, basically the same price for brand new computer with better performance and lower power consumption (you also need GPU but you can chose APU instead if want iGPU).EDIT: if need win10 and want to stay legal, find old win 7/8 licence and upgrade it into win 10 for free.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 10:53:45 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 18, 2020, 02:17:10 amI hear you, but it just isn't going to be the same level of quality - have you ever seen one of the SFF Optiplexes up close? The Optiplex build is top, top quality... once you open one up, you can only stare in amazement and wonder at how good they are. Built like a compact little brick sh!thouse. No tools needed to take anything out, everything has levers and locking mechanisms.Furthermore, Optiplexes have an actual real serial port, which comes in handy in the lab environment. Dell has the Windows licensing built into the BIOS (OEM license), never any need to activate Windows or mess around with anything like that - just install and go.Basically, the Optiplex is a high quality design where new prices are kept modest by manufacturing in high volumes, and the used market has plentiful supply from the corporate world to keep prices even lower for the AMAZING quality that you get.

author: chriva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 11:08:00 am
content: I'd also say used Optiplex.No performance monster by any means but it's small and you don't have to deal with building the machine, buying expensive itx board, chassis and psu etc.Everything is $$$ when it comes to small form factor builds so you'd basically abuse your wallet if you were to build one yourself.Look for one that has PCI-E tho. The internal GPU is usually leaving a lot to be desired with machines from the core i gen 4-5 era. Just stick a 60$ gpu in it and be done

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 11:41:54 am
content: Quote from: chriva on May 18, 2020, 11:08:00 amI built a SFF gaming PC by adding an Nvidia GTX 1050 graphics card to an Optiplex Core i7 2600 / 3.40GHz / 16GB - which is "only" a gen 2! Things have only improved very incrementally since then.The kid (who is heavily into gaming but not building PCs) is very happy with it and says it performs completely respectably in the online gaming world. This is probably about the fastest graphics card that the PSU can handle, though - it is only 250W - but the GTX 1050 is very frugal on power.Total cost for the entire build was something like $250, as I already had an SSD that could be pressed into service for this one.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 18, 2020, 10:53:45 amWin 10 remembers hardware. If it was activated once, it will activate automatically upon clean reinstall without entering any serial number. Old dell has no warranty and is past it's designed lifetime. It does not have exceptional quality. Cheap motherboard with weak 3 phase VRM. Also half capacitors are usual electrolytic caps instead of all polymer you'll get with new motherboard.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:23:52 pm
content: an intel fan... always...https://www.pcworld.com/article/3540757/intel-core-i9-10900k-comet-lake-chip-price-specs-and-features.htmland will build custom setup anytime as NUC like equivalent still cant deal with my storage need. ps: although i still think hyper/multi threading is a placebo buzz... ymmv.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 18, 2020, 12:23:52 pm10 series is a result of marketing fart. They simply added ridiculous boost frequency to 9th series. The caveat is you'll unlikely to ever see it boost to the max. Performance is marginally better than 9th series and sometimes even worse.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 18, 2020, 12:29:50 pma marketing fart that AMD brought (multithreading) that was once in the hand of Intel, then later dismissed in previous Gen, it now comes back againbut i will not so eagerly invest on the latest Gen yet, i will find many more good reasons if i want to invest on a new system. but its the time that they have reached my spec... double the speed of my 2.66GHz Q9400, more than double the cores is bonus... a 10 years wait... but i will take your point, including to compare them with Ryzen series and even older Intel's Gen (to cut cost)... we have more infos/reviews in the net nowadays, so its a more wonderfull time. ymmv.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 18, 2020, 12:51:17 pmExcuse me but you are confusing multithreading with Hyperthreading/SMT. And Hyperthreading/SMT indeed does add significant performance increase. And BTW what I wrote about marketing fart has nothing to do with it. Intel simply sells old CPUs made with old process under new name and boasts some nonsense as if it was some breakthrough.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 18, 2020, 12:55:54 pmExactly, which is why you are not really much worse off using older i7 cpus... (I realize AMD has better performance/price and have owned many AMD powered machines)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 18, 2020, 12:23:14 pmI'm talking about mechanical quality as much as anything... The steel is so thick on these, that the side panels don't flex... The connectors are high quality... Etc etc.A new motherboard for one of these is like $15 on eBay, so they are cheap to fix if anything ever goes wrong.For non-enthusiast, economy applications, they are very hard to beat in practical terms.That doesn't mean I don't appreciate making a PC from scratch. I'm still using an EVGA SR-2 based dual hex core machine I built years ago... I have a rule for building a new PC: The performance has to be at least double of the old one, or you'll barely notice the difference. I'm not convinced that I'd be able to build something with double the performance even today, so many years later! - which basically shows us how the whole PC industry has plateaued in terms of performance.But in the lab, I use an Optiplex, and when friends and family ask for help choosing a PC they get an Optiplex. No dissatisfied customers, and little/no work for me. Winner!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:37:58 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 18, 2020, 01:26:58 pmWhat you suggested was made with 22nm process though. So there was noticeable performance bump since then. But since 7 series not really given that core count and frequency is the same.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 18, 2020, 12:23:52 pmThat looks like a serious chip...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 02:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 18, 2020, 01:59:43 pmQuote

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 02:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 18, 2020, 02:20:48 pmThe Threadripper (and Ryzens) also look dead serious. Hmm, this has gotten interesting again recently, I see.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 04:03:34 pm
content: yes as i said wonderful time. i was searching for top notch intel CPU few years back, i think the one Dave used for video editing, Xtreme Edition if i'm not mistaken, for gamers or such... the price is simply, unaffordable, 4 digits price in USD. now we have 10 cores at half a K nice! Ryzen also offered interesting performance, including the unaffordable 30+ cores. but stability wise i dont know, never came nearer any one of those, so the stereotype remains, Intel CPU is always the most stable out of factory. i havent check closely on Ryzen stability/compatibility issues with other HW/SW, but istr i've read some. so if you want to put an item in your cart, make sure you search for <insert your favourite item> "problem" / "issue" (or any other relevant keywords that you should not expect) in google first before hitting "confirm buy" button.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 04:37:39 pm
content: The only CPU instability problems I have had in the past 20 years have been related to hyperthreading on Intel CPUs and obscure power saving states like C1E where cache is evacuated and powered down.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 06:37:02 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 18, 2020, 04:37:39 pmwhile comparing between Intel i9-10900K and AMD Ryzen 9 3900X...since 3900X performs better on most SW (5:58) so i dig more into its problem if any.. here is the CPU is locking to non-boost freq when we request it to do a job...https://community.amd.com/thread/244682https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/04/amds-ryzen-boost-clocks-are-a-problem-but-not-for-you/this kind of report will make me stay away from non-Intel CPU...ymmv.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 08:49:33 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 25, 2020, 06:37:02 amSo you are concerned about boost clock bios bug which was fixed like a week or two after it was discovered and completely ignore all security bugs of Intel CPUs?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 10:28:39 am
content: practically it wont affect performance and normal (non-target) users imho. and its fixed in 10th gen,https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21167782/intel-processor-flaw-root-of-trust-csme-security-vulnerabilityeven if its still not fixed, performance is the 1st reason why people buy a CPU, hardware AES is bell and whistle.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 10:37:30 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 25, 2020, 10:28:39 amThat's only one out of many security bugs discovered in the last few years.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 07:41:27 pm
content: When I was young I started saving for a new PC at the same day I bought a new PC, because I knew that in 3 or 4 years time it would be hopelessly obsolete.Now I'm typing this text on a 11 year old DualCore which is still chugging along fine with Linux Mint.There are still plenty of companies who throw away all their old PC's and buy new ones every three years, and these are bought in bulk by specialized companies and sold for reasonable prices.As for the processor speed, it's quite useless to ask here with nobody even knowing which programs you run.So make a list of the programs you want to run, make some estimate of the horsepower you need by running those programs on the PC you have now and compare it with the CPU ratings on cpubenchmark.net.My guess is that you do not need a fast PC and a 3 year old second hand for around EUR200 would be enough.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 10:05:02 pm
content: Yep. Until a short time ago I was using a 3GHz Core2Du0 (2008 vintage) as my daily driver. Got a little concerned about using Windows 7 online, so I bought an off-lease Lenovo i5-3xxx for $150 and put Linux on it and it works fine for just about everything I do (except games, have a different PC for that). The C2D was still perfectly adequate and in hindsight, I probably should have just put Linux on it and saved some money.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 11:23:59 pm
content: With my 10 year old Phenom 2 940 it is not CPU speed which holds it back but physical RAM. It has 8 GB which was more than average 10 years ago but is now barely adequate. I could upgrade it but the cost of the RAM would be more than a new and significantly faster CPU, motherboard, and RAM.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 11:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 05, 2020, 11:23:59 pmIf anything holds it back, it's lack of SSD. I cannot come up with any task except something ultra specialized where 8GB of RAM would hold back this old CPU.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 11:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 05, 2020, 11:35:52 pmSSDs I can add and it has one for the page file. The main volume is an Areca HBA which is plenty fast. Meanwhile, I regularly run out of RAM.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 12:14:21 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 05, 2020, 11:44:53 pmIt's frankly pretty lame to use SSD just for page file. And regardless what HDDs and what RAID you use, they completely suck compared to cheapest SSD used for OS and programs. Whatever linear transfer speed you have, seek time is still there.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 02:05:16 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 05, 2020, 11:44:53 pmi dont know what you are running. a server maybe? last year i bought HP Z800 12 cores Xeon server with built-in 24GB DDR3 at iirc $250 excl shipping. i dont have a specific use for it i just dont want to miss a chance. later add 48GB DDR3 to it at less than $100, snapped in 2X Xeon X5690 to get 3.46GHz, 120GB SSD and used Radeon RX470 at dirt cheap.. with its 72GB RAM i tried HFSS running 4 or 5 solvers at a time. the 12 cores is the one got throttled, the RAM is barely touched. i was afraid i will miss out, but it seems there are still plenty Z800 in ebay to choose from. btw i'm still with my 3GB RAM 10years old Q9400 quad core, never need more, even Altium R14 and AutoCAD R14 worked quite well. but whenever i need more serious work, Z800 is there standing by.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 10:15:21 am
content: Quote from: FriedMule on May 16, 2020, 12:23:46 amQuote from: FriedMule on May 16, 2020, 09:34:09 pmThat's contradict each other.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 10:32:14 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 06, 2020, 04:13:42 amAlmost 11 months since I have build "budget" 3600X based Ryzen workstationfor a daily usage and real-time interaction (such as Altium etc.) As far as today, no issues at all.The next step would be upgrade to 3950X and PCIe Gen4 primary storage; somethings I wish more cores available, especially then running VMs in parallels.Another AMD workstation in progress for specific tasks, aka EPYC 7551P (1st Gen) on Win10, didn't fail yet.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 12:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 06, 2020, 12:14:21 amDo you think I did not test it? Operation and booting from the Areca HBA is *faster* than a Micron MX500 series SSD. The only place where the SSD is faster is benchmarked random *read* access.Under heavy load, Windows reports an access time to the HBA of barely more than 0.1 milliseconds because of prefetching and write coalescing on the HBA. Note that this requires write buffering in Windows to be deliberately disabled because it just gets in the way by causing buffer bloat.Now maybe you are thinking of higher performance PCIe SSDs but they are difficult to take advantage of with old hardware and would face the same interface limitations as a good HBA.Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 06, 2020, 02:05:16 amJust Firefox takes 4GB. Chrome is even worse.Applications I use for work are less demanding than Firefox and various games.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 03:05:26 pm
content: ahh the fun of Firefox!.. when i open many Firefox windows and tabs, things start to lag badly, checking the task manager its usually will consume 1-2GB of ram and some unknown processing 1-2 cores at behind, maybe some scripts not sure. the fix is simple "End Process" button and restart then carefully select out the unecessary windows. its clean again until i reopen another many windows/tabs. Chrome shows much much more stable operations but some websites will show errors when Firefox still can open them. both are old unsupported version in WinXP though maybe that explained failed to open scenarios in Chrome (unsupported certificate whatever it is), so i use both to save one another's arse, mainly Firefox (albeit its unstable nature) due to easy GUI to save bookmarks and shortcuts buttons etc. anyway they are not like working on critical project files that need saving from time to time, so its not critical, just end task and restart. and the wonder of both is i can start again to where i was even on power outage, so browsing experience is uniterrupted with many power outages, hibernates cycle for many many days. the time when i got "Windows resource depletion" warning is when i open all chrome, firefox, photoshop, altium, autocad at one go, but it seldomly happened and i trained myself to make a habit not to work on many unrelated projects at a time.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 08:17:26 pm
content: Also when I find my work process limited by computer performance, with a single disk or Window's horrendously performing Storage Spaces in any of various configurations, it will be storage throughput which is limiting performance. With my Areca HBA or SATA SSD, performance is CPU limited with the HBA providing better overall performance than the SSD.So from my perspective, people using SSDs are just barely catching up to the performance that I became used to more than 10 years ago. The difference is they can do so at much lower cost albeit for less storage space.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 08:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 06, 2020, 08:17:26 pmNow try something not bottlenecked by SATA.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 12:17:50 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 06, 2020, 08:52:28 pmAnd how does that help when the CPU or RAM is the limiting factor?I am using something not bottlenecked by SATA, a big high performance HBA.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 01:30:06 am
content: Software is probably a bigger performance limitation than hardware, these days.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 02:04:40 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 07, 2020, 12:17:50 amWell, part of the reason you're CPU limited is driving an AHCI or similar controller which is simply inefficient at this task.. You are not going to see better performance out of your array of spinning missed seeks than a proper SSD, and you're consuming an order of magnitude (atleast) more power, let alone space, to even begin to get close.Also sorry not sorry, no time in my life to listen to that particular Linus on any subject.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 12:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 07, 2020, 02:04:40 amThere was no significant difference between the Areca HBA in pass-through and AHCI. AHCI is lower performance but not to the extent that it mattered in real world applications with single disks as opposed to synthetic benchmarks. This might explain the poor performance of Windows Storage Spaces and I may know in a few weeks when I pick up another Areca HBA if I run some tests on that.QuoteAll true but even including the HBA, capacity per cost is an order of magnitude higher and funds are not unlimited.QuoteSo like Socrates' friends?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 01:03:47 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 07, 2020, 12:17:50 amthats the sign for a call to i9-10900K

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 06:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 08, 2020, 01:03:47 pmNo ECC? No thanks. (1)The RYZEN 7 3700X is at the top of my list of acceptable processors.(1) The i9-10900K supports ECC but it requires a south bridge which supports its also which means a very expensive motherboard. Maybe there is a reasonably priced Intel solution but Intel has made it too difficult to find.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 08, 2020, 06:55:42 pmNo chipset will make it support ECC because it does not. Also there was no north/southbridge for more than a decade.Including your motherboard With Phenom II.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 08, 2020, 06:58:49 pmThe first reference I found said it supports ECC, with chipset support, but Intel says it does not:https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/199332/intel-core-i9-10900k-processor-20m-cache-up-to-5-30-ghz.htmlQuoteThe south bridge still exists in the form of the I/O controller hub. Intel ties ECC support to their south bridge for reasons of market segmentation.Intel calls it the PCH (Platform Controller Hub) now but it is the same thing and AMD has an equivalent.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 08, 2020, 07:03:37 pmAmong consumer processors ECC is only supported on some bottom end CPUs like Pentium or i3 lines.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 08, 2020, 07:03:37 pmIt's called PCH for Intel and calling it southbridge is not correct since it isn't functionally. Although I stand corrected about your motherboard, AM2/3 still had southbridge. I even have 2 of them laying around.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:19:31 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 08, 2020, 07:08:46 pmI'm probably thinking of some of the low end Xeons which use the same socket as their consumer processors. When used in a desktop board, they don't support ECC but do when used in a board with a server chipset, they do.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 08, 2020, 06:55:42 pmsuit youselfi've been with no ECC since my 1st PC. the Xeon server i mentioned earlier has ECC but i bought it because its cheap, not because it has ECC. if ECC is the problem in Intel's, its should be viral since decades ago in the muggle's world. maybe i'll consider it if i want to make up a business server for consumers. btw, as for now the Xeon server will stay to become my secondary (specialized) computing machine, probably as a test (prototype) server in the future.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 07:34:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 08, 2020, 07:30:39 pmI've had enough of non testable RAM problems with Intel and AMD based computers causing me a lot of PITA. So ECC is very welcomed for me.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 08:07:43 pm
content: i think its easy to diy ram validation/stress test program (or maybe its already there in the net) one way i can think of is to run 2 same simulations at the same time to use different memory space, if 2 outputs are the same, memory is good. or just make 2 different compilations/outputs at different time even if they will use the same memory space and compare, if outputs are the same, memory/compilation/work is good. do that many millions of time in few months 24/7 if need more assurance. but i'm yet to have the need to make the simulation program as i havent notice a single problem relating to this that justify itself as a significant concern... or are those nonreliable non-ECC/motherboard good brand names? like Kingston or Samsung etc? or were they handled with good ESD practice? btw, ECC is already on premium price so anybody requires that premium grade should not complaint about the price they are going to pay, ymmv.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 08:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 08, 2020, 08:07:43 pmThere is Memtest86 and other programs. The issue is everything can be perfect according to them after running for 24+ hours. Yet you may have BSOD once in a few weeks regardless until you replace the RAM. Also you are not even sure if it was caused by RAM to begin with. Memory tests do not help much for detecting marginal RAM issues. The fact there is no ECC in consumer computers with current sizes of RAM is a pure nonsense from technical point of view. Basically everything in computer uses some sort of ECC, except goddamn RAM. It's a goddamn marketing to distinguish server products.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 08:18:51 pm
content: i will have BSOD if i configure my OS wrongly, usually due to broken/old/incompatible drivers or even broken graphics card. recently i usually have BSOD when wake up from hibernation, it turned out to be dying PSU (loose/broken connectors) issue. changing PSU and its gone.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 08:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 08, 2020, 08:18:51 pmBut you don't know for sure if any of BSODs were caused by those. And nope, BSOD because of bad GPU is much less common than because of RAM. It likely may be not even broken. Just does not work with particular computer properly at XMP or SPD timings. Especially considering that RAM chips usually are of lower speed grade than sticker/SPD/XMP may let you think.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 08:24:25 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 06, 2020, 02:05:16 amWell, strictly speaking, the z800 is a workstation, not a server (HP's servers were called 'ProLiant' until the whole part of the business was spun out to HPE). It supports ECC but lacks any of the features like remote management, hot-swap capable drive bays and fans, or redundant PSUs which are normally found in servers.Back then the z800 was different from other dual processor workstations (i.e. Dell Precision T7500) in that it used two 5520 chipset PCHs to make all PCIe slots available even in single CPU configurations (other workstations couldn't use the slots assigned to CPU 2 if only a single processor was installed). Unfortunately HP didn't do this for its successors.If you need a server then I'd look at the ProLiant series. Which often are also cheaper than a workstationQuoteIndeed, but that is because it's been obsolete for several years and it's Nehalem and Westmere XEONs are affected by several major security flaws for which no microcode update exists.In addition, the z800 has a weak spot which is the proprietary PSU, which over the lifetime has proven to be unreliable and prone to fail. The successor z820 (which uses the same physical shape for the PSU) got a redesigned power supply which was a lot more reliable (and which was also used in the z840), but this one doesn't work in the z800.If I had to buy something today then I'd rather opt for the HP z620 or z820 which use Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge XEON E5 processors (all which are notably faster than Nehalem and Westmere) and which not only are mmuch more reliable but also offer goodies such as USB3, UEFI and even NVMe boot support (retrofitted by HP through a BIOS update).My recommendation would be the z620 since it's less bulky, also all its PCIe slots are connected to the primary CPU so they all are usable when only one processor is installed. I'm using one as my gaming PC (1x XEON E5-2667v2, 64GB RAM, Micron 9200 PRO 3.8TB NVMe SSD, Geforce RTX 2060 Super)Thanks to early E5 servers and workstations being retired, prices for systems and especially processors have come down dramatically. it's probably the current sweet spot in terms of price/performance right now.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 09:00:13 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 08, 2020, 07:30:39 pmA lot of people have. And most of the time it appears to work fine. But soft errors are a real thing, and when they happen then the user doesn't necessarily sees any immediate effects (like crashes or errors). Sometimes this affects a non-used memory segment, and on other occasions it might well affect a segment that contains data and results in silent data corruption.Remember "bit rot" (sudden change of individual bits on a magnetic hard drive)? There's a good chance that most of the people who are affected were actually having undetected memory issues. Because as wraper said, everything else in a PC is already ECC protected. Also because "bit rot" seems to be mostly a problem for consumers and not the professional sector or enterprise (where workstations and servers use ECC).The highly inflated cost of ECC is mostly down to market political reasons (i.e. greed) and not because the additional four bits of memory plus some simple logic would actually be cost prohibitive.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 11:54:04 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 09, 2020, 09:00:13 amUgraded mine and wifey Ryzen desktops, both now on ECC as price currently quite reasonable, and yes, here locally its cheaper than those yucky led bling2 GSkill memory.My Samsung's OEM B-Die ECC are underrated 2400@CL17 at factory SPD, managed to bump up to 2933 without even adding any voltage to it, and currently I'm happy at 3200@CL16@1.38V no problem nor error correction logged.Yes, I did try deliberately at almost stable RAM speed at crazy timing just to test the ECC mechanism, and it works on Ryzen, Windows WHEA shows nicely.