Hyperloop UPV Design - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 06:42:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 25, 2017, 02:48:54 amThis is our concept train. Does that big fan on the front look like it's designed for a vacuum?It'll be low pressure air, yes, but not vacuum. Vacuum causes all sorts of side effects, eg. cooling of all the massive electromagnets and batteries. What you need is a balance between air friction andnotcooking the people/goods inside to medium rare.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 09:56:18 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2017, 06:42:14 amNo, and that's not a bad idea.But how on earth did that concept even get off the back of the envelope?What does it actuallyrideon?I presume the force air, but what happens when the speed isn't high enough for that? Rollers? Rails is just slids on? does it just suddenly plonk on the ground when the speed goes down?What stops it from spinning?I like the concept of compressed air sucked in the front, possibly used for (or or some) lift, and pushed out the back, that could work. But this tubular design looks completely flawed. There seems to be no practical considerations put into this?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 10:06:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 09:56:18 amIt hangs from the ceiling, on magnets.Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 09:56:18 amThe same thing that stops ships rolling over at sea.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 10:16:14 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2017, 10:06:23 amOk. Suspended Maglev.Why the top and not the bottom?What about the sides or bottom? How do you prevent it from slamming into the side of the tunnel when it goes around the slightest bend?(and what is the maximum bend radius?)Do you have a web site or something detailing this design?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 10:21:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 10:16:14 amAll the magnets are in the top of the train so it can 'bank' under inertia. There's electromagnets in the sides to keep it the center of the tube.Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 10:16:14 amTBD.Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 10:16:14 amhttp://hyperloopupv.com/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 10:24:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 09:50:56 amBecause ... that's the original Sci-Fi dream. It's what the press likes writing about.Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 09:50:56 amMe personally? Yes. Other teams may be aiming for that but that'stheirproblem.I think there's a balance to be found between reduced air pressure/friction and practicality.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 10:27:45 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2017, 10:21:44 amWhere have you tested this?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 10:33:10 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2017, 10:21:44 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 10:39:02 am
content: Full design doc (well, Jan 2016 anyway):https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0HPI9kbOr9IelNQcXdJOU5weFE/view

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:06:33 am
content: I'm not seeing the point of hanging suspension in this case? If it's just to be different as a concept then ok but a practical design would need to fail safe. I had a quick read through the original design concept summary on Wikipedia and didn't see anything too wrong with the concept. They talk about reduced pressure (because high vacuum would be stupidly impractical) and cars suspended by air bearings, pumped & aerodynamic which gives you fail safe. Still a challenge to actually get working at anything like the speeds they are talking about and although the concept isn't that remarkable, the devil is always in the detail. The biggest question is what are they trying to solve, the problem with air travel is the politics & ludicrous scare mongering, the actual flight times would match this idea.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:14:58 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 10:27:45 amWe haven't, yet. We don't actually have a tube to test anything like that.The way hyperloop works is that each year there's a challenge for the teams to complete. Last year's challenge was to build a single passenger pod and make it go down a tube on a rail.The 'years' follow the academic timetable, ie. They start in September. Our tube is being installed as I write this so this year will be all about trying to levitate something inside it. Other teams have more money so they already had a tube last year. So it goes.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:19:59 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2017, 10:24:29 amWhy is your design only 100Pa then?That's practically a complete vacuum just like the others, 1/1000th of typical sea level air pressure of 100kPa.It's in your design document:

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:22:40 am
content: Quote from: Z80 on September 26, 2017, 11:06:33 amTo me it seems easier than trying to push it up from underneath. Gravity works with you to keep it stable, not against you.Quote from: Z80 on September 26, 2017, 11:06:33 amThere's 10^6 problems to be solved, yes. We don't have all the answers yet.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:34:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 11:19:59 amI wouldn't put much faith to in the numbers in that document. The confidence of amateurs is the envy of professionals, etc.Not everybody believes the things I say in meetings, I'm just an old fart so what do I know?Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2017, 11:19:59 amNumbers change rapidly when they start to build things. The last numbers I heard being thrown around in the meetings were 1/10th of an atmosphere. That might change, too.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 11:49:24 am
content: Maybe I should be more clear that I don't speak officially for the team or anything like that.We make plenty of documents and press releases, etc., but the engineering is still mostly up in the air.I can't give any definite answers on specifications or on how many magnets will be in it. We have to build a train first.Our team is also about to change completely because a lot of the students were in their final year and have left University. We're currently interviewing for this year's team.The main point is that I don't think Hyperloop iscompletelycrazy and if anybody can do it, Elon Musk can

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 02:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2017, 11:49:24 amBut he'snotdoing it. He does not own any Hyperloop company, nor is he even a director of any Hyperloop company that I know of. And AFAIK, apart from Space-X sponsoring a few student contest things etc, he doesn't have skin in the game at all.Peoplethinkhe's doing it, but he's not, and it's a big secret no one seems to want to mention.All everyone sees in the press is "Elon Musk's Hyperloop", so they automatically equate it with his Space-X, Tesla, and Solar City companies. Nothing could be further from the truth.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 03:41:41 pm
content: Where does the driver sit?Make a model to work in a 8 inch pipe, to prove how impractical it is.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 05:15:24 pm
content: Something in the 100 Pa range is completely plausible. This is what you can easily get with mechanical pumps but still more in the range of classical aerodynamics and not yet molecular dynamics. With a higher gas pressure there would be likely too much pressure build up in front. It might still be enough to use aerodynamic lift with the increased pressure in the thin gap. At the planed speed there is not just one pressure, but different pressures in front, in the gap and at the back.I am not so sure about the speed - there could be tricky effects getting close and beyond the speed of sound in some areas. Also the speed of sound can change with gas composition, e.g. water contend - at such a low pressure you can no longer assume normal air composition, as pumps work different with different gases and leaks can be gas specific too. In high vaccum systems there is usually a higher fraction of water, hydrogen and helium than in normal air composition.A smaller scale model would be a logical step - most of the problems could probably be tested at smaller scale. There won't be a passenger inside for quite a while anyway. However magnetic levitation might get more difficult on small scale (magnetics tend to work better in large scale).If magnetic levitation is planed, I would consider both top and bottom - this would help keeping it not as unstable. The attractive part gets stronger the shorter the distance - thus an inherently very unstable system. At least the magnetic levitation system is well proven, so nothing fully impossible.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2017, 08:13:01 pm
content: To getallof the air from in front of the train to behind the train, through the train's small internal tube, the compressor is going to have to increase the low air pressure by about 300 times. I don't think this would be possible even if the whole train was just compressor!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 11:25:30 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on September 26, 2017, 05:15:24 pmAnother problem is the ratio of permanent to fixed magnets. If there's too many fixed magnets there's a danger of losing control and slamming into the top of the tunnel. If there's a lot of electromagnets then the power/battery requirements go up massively and become a limiting factor in the distance you can travel.We'll see how it goes.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 11:27:53 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on September 26, 2017, 08:13:01 pmYep. It's a problem. We need to figure out how much air we can get past/through the train.Also if the air can be used to any advantage, eg. to provide some lift.There's no shortage or problems to solve.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 02:14:41 pm
content: QuoteHow much energy does it take to operate the pumps for the air. Nobody knows. And you need to do that if there is 1 train in the tube, at night, where there is nobody travelling.QuoteYeah, autonomus metro is solved in 1983.QuoteWell, no kidding here. Train is electric.QuoteSo you replace about 70KG/m rail with a tube, and expect cost saving. Aham. Not to mention, you need electricity in the train, so you will eventually need an extra rail or two (doh) to carry the electricity to it.The thing is, I like the idea, I dont like bullshit. Write: We do it, because it is awesome, and someone else is paying for it.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2017, 04:51:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 27, 2017, 11:27:53 amGiven couple B$ to spend think could also come up with some nasties taking extra long to solve...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 02:30:20 pm
content: You're all wasting your time, Hyperloop is dead.Elon is now planning to fire commuter rockets between cities, I think Kim Jong Un is an early adopter.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41441877

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2017, 08:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on September 29, 2017, 02:30:20 pmAround here we mostly talk about cargo, not people, so...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 01:02:33 pm
content: It seems that Mr. Musk wants to get everything for free:

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 07:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: madires on September 30, 2017, 01:02:33 pmHey, there's our pod!

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 08:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 30, 2017, 07:52:11 pmLooks interesting.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2017, 08:45:35 pm
content: Quote from: kalel on September 30, 2017, 08:39:39 pmThe outer shell is aluminium honeycomb covered in carbon fibre,It's really cool, you can pick the whole thing up in one hand!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 01:05:22 am
content: Quote from: madires on September 30, 2017, 01:02:33 pmClever dude.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 02:03:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 01, 2017, 01:05:22 amBut you all know it's never going to work, so ... no harm done.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 02:56:40 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 01, 2017, 02:03:16 amBut he stills gets any technology used in testing. Still gets huge research efforts for free.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 03:20:28 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 01, 2017, 02:56:40 amI can't speak for other teams but right now the students at UPV are getting plenty in return.And ... I'm fairly sure no person onanyteam will get to keep IP developed on a University campus.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 04:39:58 am
content: OK.... Let's assume that there will never be any commercially viable Hyperloop system. In this case, then Elon Musk is gaining IP for an application that will never return any benefit. Hardly a smart move if that's what he is after.Can the IP surrendered for participation potentially lead intootherapplications? Yea - this is most certainly a possibility ... but it is a rather high risk venture. The investment is not trivial ... and the odds of a return are simply incalculable.Is it simply a public relations exercise? No doubt Musk is getting a lot of press out of this and he is not afraid to be in the limelight. The encouragement of throwing down a challenge to the engineering fraternity is a great way to get a lot of attention.Is this an around-about recruitment process? See who presents the most interesting/innovative thinking and offer them a job? They may never work on Hyperloop again, but they could be just the sort of person Musk wants. This is not implausible.The Hyperloop concept is not impossible - but, just like Solar Roadways, the real question is: "Is it worth it?". Unless something dramatic turns up, then the "Yes" answer is not within reach.For the time being, I'm not unhappy for this to continue - as I am a big fan of brainstorming ... and this seems to be an interesting exercise at an international level. There may not be anything revolutionary developed, but this is the sort of environment where a crazy idea might just get enough traction to go somewhere.The big winners in this are the people working on the entries. There is nothing more educational than to stretch your knowledge in the development of an idea - especially one that isn't in any text book. Real world implementations are far more engaging than theoretical studies or simple, structured examples.When I first started programming, I developed a simple challenge when learning a new language: Plot a sine wave. For the text based languages at the time, this was not a two-line exercise. I had to find out more than what any course material had set out to achieve whatIwanted to achieve. I never needed to plot anything like that in my real programming - but it did get me more familiar with how the language worked.I see the Hyperloop challenge as engaging the same sort of effort. Those involved will certainly be far better engineers because of it ...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 06:04:12 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 01, 2017, 04:39:58 amYes, it's effectively a big brand (personal + SpaceX) marketing, recruitment, and hype (pun intended) campaign, whether completely intentional or not.I have no doubt Musk is a believer in Hyperloop, but he's clearly notthat muchof a believer that he's willing to put real money/resources/corporate power behind it like he has for his other projects.All he's doing is running some (fairly expensive) First Robotics type university contest for it.Yes he created the Boring company, but he didn't do that specifically for Hyperloop.He's not dumb, I suspect his spidey sense is starting to realise that nothing much is going to come out of this Hyperloop, at least as it was originally intended with the vacuum.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2017, 04:48:40 pm
content: I think Musk is doing this to get ideas, not really that it will work, but that some offshoot will be something that makes money. Be it the boring tech, to make cheaper tunnels, or better strong light walls, or power supplies for vacuum use that are modular and cheap, or just the thin wall capsules needed to operate it. All of which are useful in space applications, and if he can get this research done using somebody else’s money all the better for him, he gets the benefits and little of the risk.