JBC element voltage ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:03:35 am
content: Once again thinking about my quest to find a decent portable soldering iron....Despite improvements in lithium cells, nobody yet seems to have done a decent one - all I can find is a few pathetic 6-12W ones with no temp control.I'm thinking along the lines of a self-contained unit with ideally 1, maybe two 18650 cells, and a tip that heats fast enough to use in an "on demand" rather than continuous mode.Don't think Metcal is a good option due to low efficiency and drive complexity, wondering if JBC might be an option. Does anyone happen know the "native" voltage of a JBC element?Another option may be to use a Makita drill battery, as these will often be on-site anyway, obviously this would be a 2-part system, so harder to use up a ladder.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:21:11 am
content: Think it was 24V AC, it senses temperature on the zero crossing or something like that.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:27:10 am
content: Probably it's worth to consider Li poly batteries for RC instead of 18650. 18650 do not like high discharge current which seems to be your case. Also you can get multiple cells in one pack for higher voltage.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:54:27 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 24, 2015, 08:03:35 amA if JBC is too expensive you could go to a similar thing with the hakko 951, they have the element embedded in the tip/cartridge, they are fairly easy to drive.IIRC JBC is 24v AC + zero crossing detection for reading the thermocouple but you could probably do it better with DC and FETs.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 09:19:15 am
content: Whats wrong with a Weller Pyropen, I use them almost daily and have done so for...shit it's been that long I cant even remember, well over a decade anyhow, probably closer to two.What I like is that they can tin large diameter wire and do heat shrink via the side vent, they also fit both in the rungs of all our ladders and in a solder spool as a stand, in addition to fitting nicely in my overall screwdriver pocket.Weller Pyropen........It's a gasDisclaimer : I have no affiliation whatsoever with Weller, Cooper Tools, Stanley Tools or any butane refineries.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 09:13:51 am
content: Anything 18650 from any 18V powertool battery will do fine. They are all guarantee to be high discharge current cells. They discharge within an hour if heavy duty grinding job. Plenty and available commonly in many hardware stores.Don't bother with 7-10 hours laptop cells, they are not what you want, piss weak. Pouch cells from RC toys are high discharge but they probably won't last that many cycles.

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 10:03:45 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 24, 2015, 08:03:35 amThe transformer in the base unit is rated 23.5V (for whatever reason they decided to choose such a weird value) and the almost instant heat up is because they dump up to 170W into the tip. Would be quite a challenge to replicate this behaviour, powered by only one or two 18650 cells, imho

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 11:42:57 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 24, 2015, 09:19:15 amDon't get me started. I've had 3 of them over the years and they have always let me down on site - the piezo lighter often failing to light and having to resort to a lighter, and the internal aperture getting clogged. Also catalysts disintegrating. Maybe they're better now.I now have a portasol pro which seems more reliable. The wire clip stand is handy.The main problem with gas irons is lack of temperature control so they usually run too hot. You also need to watch the hot air stream coming out the side (though this can be useful for heatshrinking)Gas irons are probably the best solution you can buy today, but I'm sure there is scope for something better. I'm sure there must be some way to do temperature control by having a thermostatic vane to mix cold air with the hot air streamAt least in my case, the main use for gas irons is occasional use on site for doing a few odd repairs etc. So an iron that would heat up in a couple of secs on demand, and then able to be put back in your pocket immediately afterwards would be better. And of course it could have a LED for work illumination.Existing products also have poorly thought out ergonomics - I've yet to see one which has a way to store a small amount of solder - all it would need is a slot around the body to wind some around.Also something that could store a couple of tips in the body or cover would be good.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 11:44:20 am
content: QuoteI don't care what it costs - time saved with a good solution will quickly cover it.AFAICs nobody currently makes a really good cordless iron at any price

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 11:48:31 am
content: Quote from: nukie on October 25, 2015, 09:13:51 amyes, I'm sure a powertool 18650 would do the job. Would be nice to use an existing powertool battery - teh one for my Panasonic screwdriver might be one optoin.A single 18650 would be ideal for physical size for a self-contained iron, though the low voltage would be a challenge to boost efficiently - I suspect a 'native' 3.6v element would also be tricky to get down to a sensible size. Two 18650s in line might just be viable physically.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 11:52:46 am
content: Quote from: Augustus on October 25, 2015, 10:03:45 amI'm not expecting to equal benchtop performance, just heat fast enough for an 'on demand' mode of operation to be viable, say 3-4 secs for a small tip, maybe 5 for bigger. With low tip mass and efficient power transfer, 50W should be more than enough. From memory Metcals put out about 40W, and similar heat-up times would be fine.15 amps form a single cell into a 3.6v heater wouldn't be too hard, though efficiently boosting to 24V at a similar power in a sensible size would be nontrivial - probably needs a 2-winding flyback, and to get the size down you'd probably want planar magnetics. I suppose you could experiment with the planar magnetics from a 1/8 brick DC-DC converter run backwards as these are in the right power/ratio zone.Another enhancement would be a thermally insulated cover so you could idle it efficiently to reduce startup time.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 12:09:49 pm
content: An e-cig might be a suitable housing for an 18650-powered soldering iron - you can remove the actual vaping part and fit the element in its place, and they have high-current switches.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 12:53:03 pm
content: Maybe, but I'd expect power level on an e-cig may be on the low side for soldering

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 01:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 25, 2015, 11:42:57 amOfftopic: I have never seen a piezo light work for more than a few days. The things are crap.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 02:38:12 pm
content: There areIMR 18650'sthat are rated for 30A continuous, I think some folks have modified some e-cig power packs using two of those cells to get 200W or so.IIRC someone made a DIY JBC base station and it run just fine on 12V, so you prooobably won't need to boost it all the way to 24V to get acceptable performance.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 07:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: deadlylover on October 25, 2015, 02:38:12 pmIf the starting point is a single 3.6v cell, I don't think waht you boost it to really matters much -the challenge is getting reasonable efficiency from the low strating voltage. Had a quick try with TI Webbench but beset solution that could do was 65%.However if 12V works, then 3 cells might be a possible solution, though 3x 18650 would probably need to be in a seperate case. The single cell all-in one just seems like a really appealing solution.One thought is that as you don't need regulated DC, some sort of resonant topology with a dual-wound transformer might be worth exploring. Might even be possible to do something clever in the way of DC temp sensing simultaneously with AC drive.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 07:16:54 pm
content: QuoteThe 6W tips are puny. But they can reach temps of about 1000F. If you make the most of the tiny thermal mass tip that can get super hot, you can reattach pretty decent sized joints/wires (you can spot solder onto an existing solder bead without reflowing the whole thing, if you get what I mean), although you will never be able to desolder large joints with it. I find it works pretty well for board level SMD and thru hole soldering, excepting heavy ground planes and heat sinks, once some simple power control is added. And the tip is very efficient, with the nichrome wire heater coil fully contained in the very tip. So it is more powerful/useful than the wattage rating would suggest.QuoteMy KISS portable iron uses a 6W tip (or is it 8W? I think it is a BP-100, IIRC. The non-Pro version). The handle is two 18650 cells in parallel, spot soldered together around the rims, after soldering a + wire to the two positive terminals. The wire exits between two of the solder beads. The tip holder of the Weller iron was extracted and epoxied onto the end of the battery. It is really just a phono jack, which could also be used, albeit a little bulkier.Crude power control:Single button control. Hold button for 3 seconds to turn it on.The iron gives full power on startup for approximately 8 seconds or so, which is enough to get the tip to solder-melting temp. Then it goes to standby power of approximately 24% duty cycle to keep it there. If the tip was already warm on startup, you can interrupt the startup cycle by pressing the button to immediately enter standby.Tapping the button gives 100% duty cycle for approximately 2 seconds.Doubletap and hold will keep 100% duty cycle on until the button is released.Autoshutoff after 90 secondsPressing and holding the button turns off the iron.I built two of these (one for my brother), oh, gosh. Probably the better part of 10 years ago. They're both still working great. I only had to replace one tip that broke when I got overzealous cleaning it.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 08:04:50 pm
content: If you are looking for a portable solution the idea I have is a belt mounted unit that supplies power and temperature regulation to a conventional low voltage soldering iron. On my workbench I have a unit manufactured by Fahrenheit and that has a 24V element, something that could be supplied by a belt pack battery quite easily, maybe ten LiPo cells?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 10:50:14 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on October 25, 2015, 08:04:50 pmYeah that's an option for heavier usage- benchtop with a belt clip, or pocket pack, in which case a drill battery would be an obvious answer, as in a lot of use cases you would also be taking a drill as well, or there would be some on-site, and in my experience in the at least chances are they'd be Makitas.The reason for wanting to get a single 18650 self-contained solution is to cover cases where you're taking an iron 'just in case' any repairs are needed or for occasional use, so it takes up sufficiently little size/weight that you can just carry it all the time. Obviously it would have an internal USB charger.For more continuous usage, it could have an optional charging stand that idled it off mains (or external big battery, or 12V vehicle supply) and also recharged more quickly.

author: jeffaroo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 01:58:22 am
content: TLDR. You can easily run a JBC iron from a 18V battery pack.For the last several years I've been using a DIY JBC soldering iron loosely inspired fromhttp://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5264. Normally the tip is powered from the 24 VAC with the temperature being sensed at the zero crossing point. I have successfully modified it to run from a Milwaukee 18V drill battery pack for when I want a portable iron. Works great.I chose a 18V battery pack since that's what I have on hand. I also use the battery packs for portable CV/CC power supplies.From my notes I see that from the Milwaukee M18 18v battery pack it draws ~4.4 amps at 16.5v. I also noted that the unloaded PWM went up from a few percent to maybe 10-15% when running on 18V.I didn't try running it at a lower voltage but it might get a bit more challenging.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2015, 12:40:02 pm
content: Just found this & ordered one.http://www.banggood.com/TS100-Digital-OLED-Programable-Interface-DC-5525-Soldering-Iron-Station-Built-in-STM32-Chip-p-984214.htmlSome features a bit wanky but shows promise - 12-24v supply so could run from car, laptop supply, laptop battery, 12/19V power bank or drill battery. though only 17 watts at 12V.Doesn't appear to have a LED for illuminationManual here :http://hrajme.si/pictures/articles/00/280/TS100%20Soldering%20Iron%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2015, 01:41:03 pm
content: JBC drives the heater from 24VAC. Heater resistance is about 2-3 Ohms IIRC. Thermocouple is between the outer sleeve which is grounded and one of the heater leads. The power source must be floating with respect to outer sleeve or you need to have switches on both leads of the heater.Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2015, 03:37:37 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 28, 2015, 12:40:02 pmWas about to link to that earlier, but since it sounded like you wanted builtin battery etc..Seeedstudio have the same, and on the forum here, someone have done an proper teardown on the unit.. looks like an interesting one for one-off soldering in the field.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2015, 04:29:40 pm
content: Finally found the thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/trial-on-the-ai-controlled-ts100-soldering-iron/loads and loads of pictures..

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 10:22:10 am
content: Yeah, tons of pictures and a lot of marketing bull. I hope Mike will be so kind to do a proper review, once he got his iron, that would be really nice

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 03:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: continuo on October 29, 2015, 10:22:10 ambull or whatnot, if you use this as an replacement iron, i can agree, but as an secondary iron, which you carry on jobs, that's another thing, you don't want to carry your stationary tool with you?, right?

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 10:36:38 pm
content: Another option if you just want something compact to throw in the tool bag but don't need it to be cordless is the Hakko FX-600. It uses the same series of tips as the FX-888 and has a similar ceramic heater with temperature control, but in a firestick format. I picked one up recently and while I've only done a few joints with it, performance seems to be in the ballpark you'd expect for the style of tip and heater--not quite in the same league as an integrated cartridge, but quite serviceable. My biggest complaint is that the cord is relatively stiff, and I'm not sure if there's a 240V version available.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 11:16:47 pm
content: Doesn't seem to be available in EU at least.But there is Hakko FX-901, battery powered, but using normal AA batteries, wonder how that would work..

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 12:35:31 am
content: Quote from: neslekkim on October 29, 2015, 11:16:47 pmForum member @5ky did a review here:

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 12:48:07 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on October 30, 2015, 12:35:31 amah, thanks, that didn't look bad at all.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 08:42:07 am
content: I just got hold of this Weller battery unit, which looks similar to the hakkohttp://www.rapidonline.com/tools-equipment/weller-bp865ceu-dual-wattage-battery-soldering-iron-6-8w-6v-85-5757/?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping&&gclid=cl6dtdfk6cgcfacewwodg5ga9qAlso 4xAA. 2 power levels, done by inserting an 1N5401 diode in series for low power.Bought for a specific job - patching in pieces of APA102 LED tape to replace dodgy LEDs (in one case 30ft up in a cherry picker!) .Worked reasonably well for this light-duty application, much better than the gas iron which got too hot and made a bit of an oxidised mess of things. The light was really handy.Although it had new Duracells, even after a few minutes' use I was feeling "range anxiety" - "are the batteries going or is it still warming up...."A version of this with a couple of lipos and some temp feedback could be fairly reasonable.Current draw from fresh batteries is about 2A on high power - I wonder if NiMh batteries may be better - lower voltage but less internal resistance.I ordered some Lithium AAs to try - not sure how their internal resistance compares to alkaline.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 08:56:56 pm
content: QuoteCheck out the Peakeep digital stick iron. Ordinarily, I would prefer the simple dial on the Hakko. But the 40W Peakeep reaches solder-melting temp in only 8 seconds, using the same tips. The 73W Hakko takes 25 seconds, per reviewers. This suggests to me that the Hakko is power-modulated with an SCR, rather than being true temp-controlled full-throttle switching. Not too big a deal, other than startup time. I suppose with the Hakko, you could fiddle with the dial if you were in a hurry to get the iron up to temp and also have the flexibility to do larger joints.The Peakeep would seem to be close to 936 level of power with true temp-control in a stick format. I don't have one, mind you. I'm tempted, at 8 second warm-up, to reduce tip-switches on my Hakko 888. A genuine spare wand for an 888 is $70.00!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 09:28:47 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 30, 2015, 08:42:07 amWith anything that draws more than 500 mA from AA cells it is NiMH all the way.I have tested both the Radio Shack and FX-901 irons on Eneloops (AAx4) with very satisfactory results. With both irons the tip warms up in a few seconds, so you can turn it on, make the joint and then turn it off again. (The Radio Shack iron came with a momentary push button switch, but I soon tired of that and hacked it into a latching switch. Too much finger ache otherwise.)

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 09:53:36 pm
content: QuoteI installed a toggle switch onto my Weller battery iron, too. That works fine for a few joints. Set up, turn on, wait, do the job, and turn off. But I soon tired of toggling it on/off on longer jobs, in order to prevent the tip from turning into a ball of charred flux residue.PWM standby power is all it takes to make these things into awesome little working irons. Each joint is just one second of full power away. I used a micro. But at it's simplest, all you need is a PWM circuit, a FET, a full power bypass tac switch, and an on/off switch. PWM cycle can be quite slow, on the order of 1Hz, so switching doesn't need to be efficient, at all. Simple pull up/down would be sufficient to turn off the FET, so the tac could simply override the PWM's output at the FET gate +- diode rectifier on the PWM output, depending if it's push-pull or open drain. Or if using an IC for PWM, perhaps connecting the tac switch to the reset pin.

author: kkontak
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 08:09:17 pm
content: Ok, this may be an old topic, but I wanted to add two things:1. JBC recently launched the *almost* dream soldering irons of this thread, marketed as B-iRON series. Battery powered et all.But they are of the small ones (for 210 & 115 series catridges) and propably intented for bench use (put back on stand for recharging shots on breaks between soldering sessions).2. I just found on ebay some (no affiliation whatsoever) soldering stations from various sellers using Makita 18V battery. They don't seem to support JBC handles tho. I wish they supported T245.for example:https://www.ebay.com/itm/313925897037?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D241587%26meid%3D9d766950d7294ab9bd430366745fd549%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D274622984590%26itm%3D313925897037%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A3139258970379d766950d7294ab9bd430366745fd549%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABMMFr2e4EmAnM%252ByHZkULYKDIJ4L66fOjNL0iupgt%252BzO1%252F3AE1t3mNirUYB96NktMCicMagiS6mbeTl0xquGODv9lhzeIo08QSWwCvlAaVUs7SguPPfcqYzz%252FFzD5Sv%252FRv7UiPFtFD38sc3fRmCx5Tq7UIlMRzSX1oJW0USTLmiwa29Ddfp78BeSTQZhnqBcvgvISxq%252FA6ajoc7JPC8EciPGRxcii7kQAbx50xx0Ug7Zvko75dRNzv%252BmIT%252F60R8ZK%252F6DtBzaf0qi01VdQndsw%252BZWDxPdNFt1DUonTMgiV0c%252BM2QRf7%252BLImI1DaTZMC0pBZoLMKiz57LXX41WUB0EcViUDWZ1e9cC0xq1noiufysmpBxRv3uU4e9nulW%252Blulc0BGQvmUDN0z5FaLa2bY99viVI%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 09:20:34 pm
content: Quote from: kkontak on August 29, 2022, 08:09:17 pmYeah its basically intended for bench use. The battery in the handpiece itself very small:QuoteSurprised they are doing ~18C discharge from that tiny cell (~3A).And the base does have a 2500mAh battery too.. interesting.QuoteLots of JBC or T12 stations have a DC input jack, 12-24V.So you can take a Makita or other battery, buy or make theconnector, and then plug that in.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 10:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: kkontak on August 29, 2022, 08:09:17 pmThe B-Iron is a bizarre product. I tested it (not at my lab, otherwise I would have recorded it), but you can solder continuously for around 5 minutes before the battery is near 0% and you need to return it to the stand for AC charging. With even moderate soldering speeds returning the iron to the base at regular intervals you quickly deplete the battery. It's not particularly powerful and the battery is not user replaceable. I don't understand the market for it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2022, 02:33:10 am
content: This new JBC toy really looks like a crap product. I don't get it either. The only thing going for it is the idea of a cordless handle. Yeah, the cord can occasionally be a slight annoyance. But the drawbacks (very low peak power, very low operating time on a single charge and recharging on stand not fast enough to really make it possible for long soldering sessions) basically make it almost useless. Also, it's chunkier and heavier than the handles of the corded ones, which makes it a lot less comfortable.So yeah, dunno. Probably there *is* a market for that kind of irons, problem is the implementation. Problem being that current battery technology prevents that from being a really usable product.