LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 01:17:26 am
content: Hello. I am looking for good quality LCR which can measure at different freq. I need it mostly for measuring caps. I was looking at popular DE DER5000 and more expensive BK 880. Which LCR do you use for this and which one is good quality option for this purpose?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 04:51:59 am
content: Used smart tweezers only for years and recently got a pair of these:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/Top product at a good price and don't think you can't use SMD tweezers on thru hole parts....have for many years.

author: sonpul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 06:18:04 am
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on July 28, 2023, 01:17:26 amI use DE DER5000 and am happy with it. And I don't need anything else.There is only one minus. DER DE5000 does not remember the selected mode when turned on. When turned on, the AUTO mode is set in which he himself determines the capacitor, inductance or resistor, frequency 1kHz, measurement D. But I'm used to it.The second disadvantage is the possible need to purchase additional tweezers or crocodiles to obtain a terminal block in order to independently manufacture a Kelvin four-wire connection.But in any case, I am very pleased with the device and glad that I did not buy something from another brand.Be careful when choosing. Many LCR meters do not have a Kelvin connection, although they appear to have. In fact, inside the flat contact is not divided into isolated + - halves.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 06:42:43 am
content: Yes having the possibility to use kelvin clips is really important with an lcr meter, especially if you're measuring small values.I have a DEREE DE5000 for some years now and very happy with it.I also have a mastech ms8911 tweezers and they are ok for simple ( and not small values) measurments, but the de5000 is better.if you buy the de5000, buy it with all possible probes, it will be difficult and more expensive to get them afterwards

author: YulyPH
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 07:39:33 am
content: I have the uni-t UT622C. Got it for the 0.1V test level for in circuit measurements.Every time I use it I'm impressed by the ohmic measurements (even with gold plated probes contact pressure matters).Managed to trace the path of a low value inductor, something that is just impossible with a normal multimeter.I replaced the clamps with the tips of multimeter probes for pcb measurements. Also got some hock adapters for probe tips to hold component leads.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 02:05:40 pm
content: I have a Peak ESR70, LCR45, BSIDE ESR02 Pro, a Tenma ??? for motor capacitors in my HVAC toolbox, DE5000, HP 4284A and 4285A all of which measure ESR very well out of circuit.In circuit the *ONLY* thing I have found reliable is an EDS-88A. Informal comparison puts the BSIDE as roughly equal to the non-HP LCR meters. At the price, functionality and build quality I think it foolish not to have a BSIDE. I also think it foolish not to have the cheapest model of Harbor Freight 3.5 digit, yellow or red. I have lots of them all over the place, the battery drawer, many toolboxes including my electrical toolbox which also has a clamp on ammeter. I use whatever is easiest for the task at hand.Reg

author: Arts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 06:55:46 pm
content: I use the DE DER5000 for most ESR & capacitance measurements. For leakage I use either my Sencore LC53 or Heathkit IT-11/IT-28.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 08:42:04 pm
content: I have the Hantek 1833C and really like it so far. However there's been some question as to whether the guard terminal is active, as Kerry Wong pointed out in a recent video. It does seem to be connected internally at the opamp, and he recently noted that it could be wired to ground instead of signal and would still work. But for my purposes to this point it has worked fine. If I was in the market for another in the price range, I'd probably go for one of the Uni-T UT622 series, or else the old standby DER5000.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2023, 09:11:13 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on July 28, 2023, 06:42:43 amAnd the AC adapter and the hard case as well

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2023, 10:07:45 am
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on July 30, 2023, 09:11:13 amnot so sure about the AC adapter... the battery I put in years ago are still alive ...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2023, 10:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on July 28, 2023, 01:17:26 amFor general purposes I do not know a better meter than the DE5000 in it´s pricerange.But forQuoteit is not uninteresting to know what frequencies you have in mind for ESR measuring.Because like almost all "cheap" LCR-Meters the DE5000 have no problems with measuring the main parameters LCR, but the secondary parameters could and will depend on the testfrequency how trustworthy they are.

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 11:21:34 pm
content: Isnt that the thing for all LCR meter? That you have to select needed freq in order to accuratly test cap? Or more expensive meters like BK880 can do it on all freq?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 11:32:22 pm
content: The ESR itself is a function of frequency, in general.The DE-5000 has 100 and 120 Hz (for normal rectifiers), 1000, 10k, and 100 kHz setrtings.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 02:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on August 07, 2023, 11:21:34 pmOnce you move to benchtop LCR meters you can usually specify a precise frequency (rather than select from a set of discrete frequencies) and/or sweep across a range of frequencies. This is also true for more advanced impedance analyzers as well.Always best to test your components at the frequency (or range of frequencies) of intended operation.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 04:48:43 pm
content: The specification capacitor measurement frequency is usually associated with the intended usage. For example, electrolytic types are usually specified at 100 or 120Hz as this is the dominant frequency of the charge current is a typical "linear" type mains power supply, whereas a film type might be specified at 1KHz, caps intended for SMPS use are often specified at higher frequencies (10KHz, 100KHz). Some caps intended for RF use are specified at 1MHz or higher.Anyway, for serious considerations one really needs the ability to measure over a broad frequency range and why bench type LCR meters are valuable, ones extending into the MHz range more so, and why we have the DE-5000, supplemented by the TH2830 and IM3536. Expensive yes, but necessary for our work, as capacitors are the most widely utilized and least understood passive component, and Murphy is always hiding withinBest,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 05:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on August 08, 2023, 02:43:59 pmVery good adviseBest,

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 07:08:14 pm
content: Thank you all for advices. So to sum up good option would be DER DE5000. I am mostly testing caps in solid state radios and audio equipment but i dont think i need Mhz testing options, or do i?Thing is that i want invest in something little bit better but cant find anything in middle price point of DER and BK880. DER seems too cheap for what it can do.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 07:19:03 pm
content: For serious RF work, you may need to use 1 MHz or greater, but a VNA is probably better at those frequencies.One use case for my DE-5000 is to check that a capacitor for an audio application is polypropylene, rather than polyester (large difference in dissipation factor/Q).

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 08:14:14 pm
content: This is too expensive for me. I plan to do basic repairs of boombox and similar items so for just testing caps of they are good or bad i think some basic LCR like these mentioned will do. Or am i wrong?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 08:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on August 08, 2023, 07:08:14 pmIf a benchtop meter is "allowed", the ET4410 could be a good choice.QuoteThe DER DE5000 is rather surprisingly good for the money.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 08:49:10 pm
content: The price of the DE-5000 is very good for a unit with its performance.This is due to the use of a dedicated chipset, the Cyrustek ES51919, which I believe emulates the measurement of the old G-R "Digibridge".My only regret is that it will not display magnitude and phase of impedance, which I believe is a matter of firmware.One can build ones own test fixture, with true 4-terminal connections, by starting with a TL-21 probe and re-wiring it for different connectors.Notes:1. The guts are "floating" with respect to a common terminal, brought out as guard. Since the unit is battery-powered, placing it on a plastic box allows measurement of circuits that are grounded (watch out for charged capacitors or powered circuits).2. The "calibration" of this and similar units is not calibration of the ohms or farads, since that is due to an internal precision resistor, but a computational correction for the test fixture in use. Even using the panel connectors directly, one should always calibrate the unit after power on with open and short circuits.3. Since I have to calibrate it anyway, I never minded having the unit not remember the previous setting.4. The test voltage amplitude is fixed (no user control) at roughly 600 mV rms.

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 11:36:19 pm
content: Thanks. So to sum up. Is there any difference in these more expensive and DER DEE5000 in terms of testing old electrolytic capacitors? Why would someone choose something more expensive LCR for this usage?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 11:52:26 pm
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on August 08, 2023, 11:36:19 pmConvenience and indicative accuracy are the real requirement IMO which is why I suggested smart tweezers in the 1st reply that also cover you for SMD work.

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 12:12:20 am
content: I understand. But in my opinion der de 5000 is more convenient since you can use it with multiple probes also tweezers. Also it has 100 khz option which is the best for testing the majority of elecrolytic caps. Would you agree and does this tweezers has something that i am not aware of?

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 12:22:12 am
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on August 08, 2023, 11:36:19 pmHonestly, for "hobbyist" purposes the DE-5000 should work just fine.I have access to my company's high-end LCR meter (the LCX), but when I just need to test a cap, I usually pull out my DE-5000. I also have a Tenma handheld that is quite sufficient for "hobbyist" use as well, but I prefer the DE-5000.

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 12:25:24 am
content: Okay. Thanks. Which one would you reccomend that is little bit more expensive and maybe higher quality then DER since i plan to use it a lot. Not exactly for hobbyst use

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 12:48:28 am
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on August 09, 2023, 12:12:20 amOnly with modern designs do you need test that high.I got tweezers 15+ years back after borrowing a old LCR bridge when at that time I was winding inductors, doing repairs and getting into SMD and they seemed the best fit for my needs and they still are.I've found many a crook cap with them with their dual display of C and ESR and TBH I'd replace them in a flash with similar.Now I have ST42 I am even more pleased with the improved accuracy and resolution tweezers can offer.YMMV

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 10:18:30 am
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on August 09, 2023, 12:25:24 amI don't have a complete list of LCR meters on the market today, but in my experience there isn't much available between the ~150 USD handheld meters and the > 1000 USD benchtop meters (like our LCX100).My preference for the DE-5000 over the Tenma is mostly subjective: you don't really get a huge difference in quality / features unless you move up to the higher category.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 10:36:01 am
content: same here you need to spend >$1k if you want something really better than the $150 de5000

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 01:07:50 pm
content: Without going back and reading every post, I think the UNI-T 622 series was mentioned but I didn't see a mention of the Hantek 1830 series. The 1833C in particular has some feature advantages over the DE-5000, such as selectable test voltage (0.3V and 0.6V) and some additional frequency bands (like 400Hz) that may or may not be useful to the OP. I did my research and watched several reviews before deciding on the 1833C over the DE-5000. I also purchased aset of Kelvin clipsto go with, and have afew sets of cheap DMM tweezerson hand as well.There was a bit of a stir created recently after Kerry Wong -- who had reviewed and recommended the Hantek meters in an earlier video -- put out a follow-up video suggesting that the guard terminal might be a dud (disconnected and not active). However a teardown showed the guard terminal was connected on the ground side and his recent update on his video suggests that this is actually a non-issue, just not the common convention.I don't know that I'd pick the lower model 1832C over the DE-5000, but can recommend the 1833C as it's only about $20 USD more for the extra features. The Kelvin clips ran another ~$30, but I'll point out that in Tony Albus' comparison with a bench LCR meter, there was no significant increase in accuracy between the 4-wire Kelvin clips and the supplied short leads on these Hantek models, even with very small resistances. The Hantek actually held its own and edged out the bench meter in some tests.I would also point out that I seldom recommend Hantek products. I believe Owon and others in this range are typically better, however in this case I think it's hard to beat their LCR meters in this price range (particularly the 1833C).

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 02:01:58 pm
content: Agree not much between the DE-5000 and over $1K, except the Tonghui TH2830 which may be found for ~$900, we got ours for $850 a few years ago.One must remember that the above $1K is bench LCR meter territory and these bench meters have many features lacking in the handhelds. Things like very high current levels up to 67ma for the TH2830 (100ma for the Hioki IM3536), selectable test Voltage and Current levels, selectable drive output impedances, DUT component binning, DC voltage and current DUT bias, frequency ranges below 50Hz (IM3534IM3536 is 4Hz) usually with 1Hz resolution, higher frequency ranges (IM3536 is 8MHz) also with fine resolution, bigger displays with more information, external interfaces, DUT graphing capability and so on. Also the available precision DUT fixtures available, some of which have been cloned and not expensive, the SMD fixtures are an example.The design of the quality bench type LCR meters is different as well, they utilize DDS created DUT waveforms and utilize high resolution ADCs (some have 24 bit SD ADCs that are common to lower end 5.5 and 6.5 DMMs) and have 5~6 digit resolution, and high BW and power level drive channels capable of driving 50~100ma DUT currents.The handheld and bench LCR meters are like comparing a handheld and bench DMM, not exactly the same same features, resolution, accuracy and so on. One wouldn't use a handheld DMM to measure/characterize a Vishay precision resistor, nor a LM399 or LTZ1000, but would use such for troubleshooting in circuit, measuring the Mains lines and "seeing" if a 1K resistor is 1K or 10K (still can't read the color codes!!).Also, should mention the quality bench LCR meters higher DUT excitation currents allow Resistance measurement ranges below the ranges on popular high resolution DMMs like the KS34465A, where the lowest range is 100 ohms.Anyway, each type LCR meter has their place like the mentioned DMMs, and why we have and use both types.Best,

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 02:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 09, 2023, 02:01:58 pmI did a video explaining "benchtop" LCR meters and their features:and I also did one that shows how these kinds of features are implemented on our LCX series LCR meters

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 08:14:14 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on August 09, 2023, 02:54:40 pmAnother nice pair of videos, well done and highly informativeYou certainly have a skill for producing informative and easy to follow videos on R&S instrumentation, that should be viewed by all folks, junior or senior, interested in specific instruments and measurementsBest,

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 08:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 09, 2023, 02:01:58 pmA little bit off the original topic but the KS34465A with 4 wire can measure with some reasonable accuracy down to around .01 ohm to .001 ohm or maybe even a tad better?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 09:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on August 09, 2023, 10:18:30 amMy personal "ranking" based on own experiences, from cheap to "not so cheap anymore":Vici LCR?? (forget the model number)Mastech MS8911DE5000ET4410Keysight U1733CST2830/TH2830And now the ranking regardless of the price...1.) ST2830/TH28302.) ET44103.) DE 50004.) U1733 C5.) MS89116.) Vici?The vici is a cheap (appx 40€) meter without selectable frequency, the mastech is good but mechanical limited ( SMD-Tweezer), the keysight is disappointing for its price (appx 700€), the DE5000 is the best handheld LCR I know for it´s price, the ET4410 is a surprisingly good meter although you must take care when doing measurings at the highest frequency.And the Sourcetronic/Tonghui is a meter you could be happy with it - to "beat" this, you must pay much, much more...ET4410 again:Pros vs DE5000:- Testfrequencies in 16 steps selectable- Testvoltage up to 2Vrms- Inbuilt DC-Bias up to 2V- Selectable output resistance 30/100 Ohm.- List (a kind of sweep) function- Best accuracy 0.1%If you want to spend max 150...170€, take the DE5000.If you want/could spend more, take the ET4410 (250..270€)Otherwise go for a ST2830/TH2830.Superb building quality high accuracy, lots of features....

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2023, 10:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 09, 2023, 08:14:14 pmThanks!

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 01:32:03 am
content: Thanks for this in-depth answer. This ET44 seems as a good budget options but it seems to me that is very low quality built. Were you saying about this one that it has sweep option? Thing is i mostly need it for testing caps only for servicing devices.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 02:00:04 am
content: If you're making sure to discharge the caps, you should also consider the Shannon Tweezers ST42. It's a great little tweezer pair, and they hold their own within their specs compared to the TH2830.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 02:04:00 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 10, 2023, 02:00:04 amYep, ppl just overlook any such small device can be useful but they are and for the repair work the OP does they will better than meet his needs.Glad there are other converts to these very good devices.