When car keys are no longer keys - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 02:20:37 am
content: Most of the vehicles I have owned over the years have had 'normal' keys. The 2 current vehicles we have don't. The 1 with the bright red panic button is for the 2013 Ram Tradesman cargo van and the rectangular box is for the 2012 Hyundai Sonata. Does anyone else have a strange looking device for their vehicle?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 02:28:17 am
content: Note that your van key has a traditional key hidden inside of it (little slide lever near the keyring). That's so you can still open the drivers door in case your electrical system is not working. Better than smashing a window!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 02:38:52 am
content: All my cars have had keys ... but I do have a funny story about keyless systems.Some time ago, I spent a little time doing some work in a mechanic's workshop - and one day I was helping check the lights on a BMW for a rego inspection. The apprentice was given the task of reversing it off the hoist and couldn't start it. The older gentleman in the workshop came over and asked him what the problem was, so the apprentice told him that he had tried pushing the Start/Stop button - and nothing happened. The older gentleman then said something like "What's the matter with you?" and then reached in, pressed the button and the engine started straight away. He pressed it again and said "See, It's simple. Try again." He pressed the button to stop the engine as he stood back up. The apprentice tried again ... but with no success.I then noticed the bulge in the older gentleman's shirt pocket ... and I completely cracked up - but I did it very quietly. In his pocket was the key - and when he reached in through the window, the key was in close enough proximity that the ignition system detected it - but when he stood up, it was too far away. The older gentleman looked at me with a smile as he knew I'd worked out what he was doing - and I let him finish his bit of fun.Apprentices are useful for a lot of things....

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 03:20:00 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on October 09, 2017, 02:28:17 amI know it's there. The Sonata fob has it also. That car has the push button start like the BMW that Brumby mentioned. There is a port in the center console, if the battery in the fob dies, you can plug it into the port, the car knows you have it and will start with the push button. Life was so much simpler when we stuck a key in a lock or ignition switch.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 07:00:25 am
content: I love the idea of a "key-less" key. My keys remain in my pocket, as long as I have them on my person, I can unlock the doors/boot and start the car without touching the key.Did I remember to lock the car? I can "interrogate" the car from up to 100 metres away and the key fob will tell me the current state of the door locks (see attached) and/or if the alarm has been triggered.The only actual keys I carry along with my car key is a USB flash memory key, my letter box key and the key to the front door of my house (all conveniently stowed away in myOrbitkey(also pictured).

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 07:30:07 am
content: the real fun happens when you mount a HID card sticker somewhere within 10cm of the key barrel, most short range RFID keys use 125Khz, so having another card broadcasting over the top of it locks out the car. I've inadvertently discovered this on a number of european cars and trucks because i have a HID tag on my key ring.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 08:21:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2017, 07:00:25 amThey're very convenient, but also susceptible to 'range extender' attacks, where off-the-shelf radio equipment is used by thieves to boost the signal to and from these keys. The car can be started and driven away even when the key is still inside the house.Keep them in a metal tin when not in use.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 08:47:43 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 09, 2017, 03:25:01 amThey became pretty advanced guys nowadays. Usually first comes "engineer" who hacks the car via CAN bus, then person who actually steals it. Some can be hacked wirelessly.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 09:30:26 am
content: My parent's Renault in 2004 was keyless. It takes more time for these advances to reach the USA, but I dont get why is it surprising. And when they do, you can start a dodge viper and drive away, while the driver is having his breakfast 20m away. And show it on BBC.Quote from: Rerouter on October 09, 2017, 07:30:07 amMost of these are 433 MHz, not RFID.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 10:06:25 am
content: Keys rock, especially in right place:Can be quickly removed if non-competent person sneaks to drivers seatNow only keyless car I had is some Subaru and it was a killer in direct sense. Engine had zero torque low down and you either polished clutch or risked stall. No practice helped sometimes it still stalled in most nasty places for example on x-roads. Now with normal car youre running again in second, probably w/o even stopping because just turn the key. But in this heap of crap had to push a button. If nervous and push it slightly wrong it would go into mode cycling instead of re-start. Good luck if truck coming right @ ya...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 10:06:50 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 09, 2017, 08:21:09 amTrue, however they won't get far (in most cars). Without the key being present and the car being able to poll it at regular intervals, the thief will be stranded on the side of the road pretty quickly.A far easier solution is to break into their home and steal the keys (which is far more common).

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 11:24:56 am
content: Car thieves now look for keyless cars, they spoof the door lock and once inside reprogram the car via can bus to accept a new key and drive away. Major problem in London and other large cities here in UK. Mr Beans answer is probably best lock the steering wheel in the boot with a padlock.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 11:35:40 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on October 09, 2017, 11:24:56 amAre thieves really that smart (or resourceful) though? I'd love to see the stats. It sounds "easy" in theory, but in reality, what is the prevalence?In Australia there have been a few theoretical/suspected cases where this has happened, but involves far more effort and greater chances of being caught. The old "steal the keys, take the car" method is far more successful, since most people keep their keys at the front door, on the kitchen bench or in a top drawer somewhere.Your higher end cars like BMW, Audi, Volvo, Mercedes etc... are quite hard to steal. You can't just plug in a laptop and off you go (Volvo doesn't even allow a Volvo dealer to apply the Polestar tuning to their cars, it's done remotely from Sweden). Subaru, Kia, Hyundai etc... might be a different story, I don't know?

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 11:40:08 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 09, 2017, 09:30:26 amOh, I house a particular kind of hatred for that exact key. It has a "giant" coil in then (2-3cm or so), which _is not_ fastened in any other way than its soldering on two SMD pads.Take a wild guess what happens with those keys when they get a little older and have been dropped a few times? You guessed it..Replacement-key and reprogramming from Renault? That'll be $400-$500, easy.Thank god I opened it up and was able to repair it.. But, really, that's a rookie mistake by whomever designed that thing.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 11:41:11 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2017, 11:35:40 amYou're right. You don't even need to plug anything in.http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/29/thieves-could-steal-your-car-by-holding-a-bag-up-to-your-front-door-6605444/

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 11:43:45 am
content: Quote from: stmdude on October 09, 2017, 11:40:08 amNot just that but even the current Renault keys are frikkin huge! Almost the size of credit cards. I get that they are "slim" but it feels like you've got this giant, rigid* bulk in your pocket. Awful design overall.*When I say rigid, not in a good way, it still feels "flimsy" and cheap, like it'll break at the first drop in the right place.Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 09, 2017, 11:41:11 amTo be fair, that's what you get for buying a BMW ;-)Seriously though, I doubt the car thieves got very far. If BMW had half a brain, the car would have been disabled after a certain timeout when the key was no longer "in range". The article doesn't mention whether their car was recovered or not.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 11:48:37 am
content: My Mom accidently locked her keyless 2016 Toyota Highlander with the keyfob inside, which Toyota argued for quite some time was impossible. Being the weekend it was a fiasco getting it open, don't recall the process but it took her all day to get back in.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 11:55:55 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on October 09, 2017, 11:48:37 amSame thing happened to my Hilux (stupid auto-locking feature). Called Toyota, they unlocked it remotely. I had to prove I was the owner of the vehicle by answering some ID questions they had on-file, like where the car was purchased, when etc...

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 12:06:59 pm
content: I hate keyless, one of the first things I do when i buy a car is go down to the local cutters and get 3 keys cut, one spare to keep at home, one spare to keep on the keyring, and one spare to hide somewhere on the vehicle I can get to if need be. You can never have too many spares, but with keyless even one extra spare will cost your first born with many, especially the more modern ones.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 12:13:34 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2017, 11:35:40 amThat method is also quite common over here. Keyless Entry is a convenience function for thievesQuote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2017, 11:35:40 amActually the opposite, range extenders for keyless entry are used primarily to steal the expensive cars. Obviously thieves have solutions for the remaining hurdles after entering the car.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 12:22:47 pm
content: Here we had quite a large number of luxury car theft via range extender method. There was discussion in media and police suggested to place key at least 5m from nearest wall when at home. Yea... but no... basically its idiotic suggestion when you can place it in metal can instead. Better yet you can have special pocket (or bag) that is properly screened. But police carefully avoided suggesting this and news article moderators carefully deleted all such suggestions. Better let cars be stolen than make public aware how useless wireless security is... (shielded pocket/bag is common theft method in shops). Soon after some more cars were stolenBut guess some shampoo bottles were saved so all moderation efforts were worth itBTW quite appalling was that many common folk did not believe that screening would even work at all and argued quite hard. At the time I still had this s****y keyless no-torque Subaru and tested - of course it worked perfectly... Couple layers of tin foil (OMG!) and key was silent for good.Currently driving car w normal key and no electronic aids but ABS - utter joy - RPM rarely drops below 5k

author: Old Don
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 12:24:35 pm
content: More than once I've set off the car's alarm while working on something. I've pressed the key fob button against the workbench, against loose change in the pocket or just about any other bozo manner of having the car go crazy. Even worse when you've got your head under the hood checking fluids!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 03:59:40 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2017, 11:35:40 amThese key-less stuff is creating a golden time for car thieves in my view. In the old days, they had to break a window and/or somehow short circuit the ignition and break the steering key-lock. With these key-less stuff, the thief can drive a car away in its pristine condition without adding a scratch.Thieves don't need to be particularly smart. They don't need a laptop nor need computer savvy. They can get a variety of ready-to-go tools to that end. They do need to be literate so they can do some web searching and perhaps do some web purchases.These tools are so ubiquitous that you can readily find youtube video code-grabbing demonstrations and "how to's".Some even record the code remotely when the car was started by the owner - so it can be used by the thief later. I recall reading a news article that one street had all their BMW stolen in one night - one would assume the thief/thieves have been recording all the codes and strike all at once.New $11 tool (but you need a pair and a two person team) in news report recently (April 2017)Artitle: "JUST A PAIR OF THESE $11 RADIO GADGETS CAN STEAL A CAR"https://www.wired.com/2017/04/just-pair-11-radio-gadgets-can-steal-car/Article: "Code Grabbers and Remote Keyless Entry:Warning about thieves using 'code grabbers' to record remote keyless entry signals."url=http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/lockcode.asp]http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/lockcode.asp

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 04:02:26 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on October 09, 2017, 11:24:56 amOr a big steering wheel locking bar.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 04:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 09, 2017, 04:02:26 pmI did some late research some years ago (late because it was after my car was stolen).A recommendation regarding steering bar-lock is: don't get the popular type - get an off-brand! Popular types have the "how to break" well known, and tools available to break them. Off-brands give them a little more trouble. They can saw the steering wheel, but that takes time and reduces the value of the car.Better yet are those that locks either the regular brake or emergency-brake. The one highly recommended by some is one that when extended force the foot-brake into the down position so the car is not movable.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 04:16:31 pm
content: Both my car and my wife's (Mazda CX5 and a Honda Accord) are completely keyless. So this is useful information indeed.They are very convenient.....The downside is that if you lose one of them, they are expensive and requires a special trip to the dealership.Quote from: Brumby on October 09, 2017, 02:38:52 amMany moons ago, when thru hole components were still the norm, an older engineer would tell the apprentices that 1% tolerance resistors (with its five-color bands) were polarized!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 04:24:48 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 09, 2017, 08:21:09 amThis can happen with "regular" keys too. Pretty much any somewhat recent key has electronics that do the same as these keyless keys. The ones in the OP have just done away with the metal part.Starting a car the way it's supposed to with just a bit of metal hasn't been standard practice for a while now.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2017, 07:00:21 pm
content: The new Tesla Model 3 just uses an app on your mobile phone running Bluetooth LE. The car comes with a couple of cards as keys. These have RFID chips that are near field only - range on only a few inches.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 12:03:58 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on October 09, 2017, 11:48:37 amSWMBO's Sonata doesn't allow this. She tried, accidentally of course. I laughed. She didn't like that. It was still funny.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 09:14:50 am
content: For most of those euorpean cars it is as easy as pluggin in to the canbus, via the cloned dealer tools you can read out the main ECU eeprom contents hidden behind a lookup table form of encryption, run a decoder on the key code table stored in in, then program a fresh key fob with stuff off ebay,As for getting inside, they just set up a toy jammer off ebay.I can say with some certainty up to 2016 model renalts, citroens and puegeots function exactly like this, aswell as mercedes up to atleast 2013,Most of the japanese cars actually get it right, they key barrel holds the electronics that authorises the keys, and its mostly seperated from the rest of the vehicles comms.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 11:02:32 am
content: Quote from: Neilm on October 09, 2017, 07:00:21 pmMr. Thief: Great, there's an app for that.And real keys are still quite useful. I've had problems using my key fob at some specific places.

author: gonzo_the_great
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 01:24:52 pm
content: The most common way of steeling cars, in the UK, seems to be by breaking into the house, or otherwise obtaining the keys. I have seen reports of thievs using a telescoping fishing rod to hook keys from a table in the hallway, through the letterbox.The code grabbing systems will only work on older cars that don't use rolling codes, or where the thief has a list of the codes, so can work out which one comes next. I agree that this could be possible.I did work out a simple method of forcing this situation, after I got locked out of a car, as the fob had been pressed repeatedly, whilst away from the vehicle, with car and fob having gotten out of sync. But I'll keep that to myself.As we are sharing stories....A while ago, we had a works outing. After the event, we all start drifting off to our cars. But one guy could not get into his.I have him a spare fob battery to try, but no-go. I suspected that he had suffered the same problem as I had, with the fob getting out of sync with the car receiver and this was indeed the case. So he had to get into the car to re-sync the two. But he had de-locked his car, and the only way in, was breaking a window.I believe he now has a hidden button or similar to get access if this happens again.Another one involved a company, who had all their reps/managers cars on lease, all co-terminus. So they decided that their annual meeting would be a good time to change the fleet. All the old cars were signed over and during the day the lease company took them away, leaving the new ones in place.When the staff came out they found that no-one could open their cars. Techs were called, AA/RAC, lots of fun.Turns out that the new cars had their key fobs on the new European frequency of 433MHz (previously 417MHz was used in the UK). And there was a radio repeater on the building that transmitted close to that frequency.Whilst the lease company were dropping off the cars, the repeater was probably not in use, but at rush hour later in the day, it was running and jamming the key fob receivers in all the cars.Inadvertant jamming is still an issue today. The breakdown/recovery firms only fix, is to tow the car a mile down the road and try using the fobs again.I play with high altitude balloons, these are meteorological balloons with home made tracking beacons, which transmit on 433MHz. And I've jammed my own car with them amny times. As I can't switch them off, I've resorted to hiding them inside the BBQ down the garden, opening the car, then quickly collecting the transmiter, before the car immobiliser cuts in again. Luckilly the neigbours stopped doubting my sanity years ago.

author: gonzo_the_great
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 01:32:27 pm
content: And.....My other car has no electronics at all.But the nut in the centre of the steering wheel is accessible and can be undone with your fingers (that is why it is accessible, so you can keep it nipped up as you drive).Many times have I taken off the steering wheel and taken it into my (or someone else's) house.So it's not just Mr Bean!(Though I have not reverted to shooting out the bedroom light, rather than getting out of bed to switch it off..... Well, not since I was a student.)

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 02:05:03 pm
content: I always buy used cars so I'm always at least 10 years behind in tech, but honestly I'm not sure if I'm a fan of all the fancy stuff in new cars now, seems to me it makes it easier to hack without needing to physically break anything as security is typically not the first thing to consider by these companies. Insurance won't cover a "break in" that has no damage because they'll figure you left it unlocked. That, and I can't help but wonder what kind of info these high tech cars are transmitting to the mothership.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 02:36:34 pm
content: I find most new cars just plain disgusting. Programmed to fall apart both tech and exterior wise. Useless electronics. Crap chassis "compensated" with cannot-turn-off stability control. Even high power ones usually have laggy turbo motors. Not much to pick from...Electric ones are just decoy. Teslas are not viable commercially. They just lure everyone to slippery all-electric road which will seriously shrink availability of personal transport. Unless battery tech dramatically changes it can cover only fraction of current personal transport volume, but internal combustion ones will be forbidden to use.What would actually make sense are free-piston or even turbine generators fueled by something, feeding electric motors thru supercap buffers.So best bet would be get most badass car w/o too much electronics with some max power free breathing or supercharged engine w/o lag and just drive weels off it until they still allow DIY driving. Think we are lucky ones - this period of DIY driving will be extremely short in historical perspective. And cars are nothing. How lucky are ones who manually handled direct control fighter jets?!

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2017, 10:51:52 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on October 09, 2017, 11:24:56 amThey don't if it's a Mercedes. My Benz is impossible to reprogram using the Star Diagnostics system unless connected to a Live Mercedes internet connection to their mainframe in Germany. And that requires a real account, with some serious vetting. And a fat monthly fee. I have one of those SDS systems, but cannot reprogram keys to replace a lost one - must bring the car into the dealer for such service.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 05:32:36 am
content: What model? Include the year.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2017, 06:44:31 am
content: I can see the advantage of the thief of being able to walk up the street whistling a merry tune while the Pi in his pocket tries all the combinations of the cars he passes. A lot less stressful than trying keys in locks whilst nervously looking over his shoulder, and and maybe getting bopped by the owner.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2017, 12:32:25 am
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on October 11, 2017, 06:44:31 amYep exactly, it makes it zero physical effort and near zero risk. You can pretty much walk up to the car like you own it, and drive off. I presume some of these cars have tracking beacons but a good hacker may know how to disable that quickly.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2017, 10:00:29 am
content: I wonder if car manufacturers ignore the security issues with keyless entry on purpose. The obvious reason would be to sell more cars. Cars get stolen easily, insurances pay for the replacements, and owners pay more for the insurance. Win-win situation. When you add the thief, it's triple win

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2017, 10:25:47 am
content: These "universal wireless keys" are quite accessible. Recently I heard a story that some thief used this not to steal cars, but just to take valuables left inside. Like maybe some people take their company laptop home, but leave it in the trunk overnight because who wants to work at home anyway!?Funnily enough, this guy owns an old car with no keyless entry that he left unlocked for that night. All other cars in the street with wireless access were touched that night, but his was not because probably the lights did not blink when the thief was nearby.Also he doesn't have much valuable crap in it. A sleeping bag.. some spare fuses and lights.. and a basic toolkit to fix basic issues.I actually don't have anything at all in my car. The most valuable, ready to grab, item is probably the emergency tyre repair kit and it's airpump.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2017, 05:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on October 09, 2017, 11:24:56 amFor those who don't know who Mr Bean is, this is the clip involved.Another trick of his, which wouldn't work with keyless entry.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2017, 05:28:25 pm
content: Quote from: hans on October 13, 2017, 10:25:47 amYeah, I've heard of stuff being robbed from cars without traces of damage. Subsequently, insurance companies refused to pay.And yes, thieves are idiots. The driver side lock of my car was damaged on two separate occasions, without actually getting in, while the hatch wasn't even locked both times. If the idiot bothered to check all the doors, he could have prevented a lot of hassle. There wasn't anything interesting in the car anyway.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2017, 07:07:12 pm
content: Standard way here is to bring along an engine ECU and the matching key, and then simply swap the existing one with the one with a matching key, and drive the vehicle away after breaking the steering lock, or pulling the lock cylinder. As they now can code the ECU to a key at leisure, they do this often, and generally part the car out after leaving it in a parkade for 2 days to see if there is a tracking system in it.Had the one telecoms tech come past in a brand new van oe day, with a funny tale. He went to a call out, locked the van properly, and went inside the shop. Realised he had the wrong phone for the system, and went out literally a minute later, and the van was gone. Calls the tracking company, and they tell him exactly where it is ( 6km and getting away fast) and send out the armed response. All they got back was the tracker, thrown out of the vehicle and hanging in a tree at the turn off they took off the freeway.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2017, 10:20:14 pm
content: Can't help wondering is Rowan Atkinson is a member here. I believe he has much the same traits, common enough in engineers in real life.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 12:09:41 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2017, 07:00:25 amIs ToF standard yet on these things or are they still saving the millicent or so of die space necessary to implement it? Without it you're generally going to be vulnerable to relay attacks.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 01:04:04 am
content: I have my own, very effective anti-theft system:She also functions as a keychain:Though, occasionally, if I’m parking the car in a bad area, I’ll lock the steering wheel as well:

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 02:51:39 am
content: Quote from: station240 on October 13, 2017, 05:06:00 pmWoah that's nostalgic. Looks like I may end up going down the rabbit hole watching all of them nowWe had them on VHS as a kid and I always found it hilarious.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 05:32:02 am
content: Quote from: timb on October 14, 2017, 01:04:04 amAbsolutely adorable!!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2017, 11:44:33 am
content: Funny thing is most aircraft do not actually have any sort of security systems, and pretty much once you are inside the cockpit you can start the aircraft and fly it. Of course the big part is opening the hanger doors, or getting onto the runway if it is just parked there, but the actual getting the motor/s running is just plain switches and controls in the right order. On smaller planes in many cases the instruction manuals will be in a visible folder inside the cockpit as well, while more modern aircraft will have them in some electronic format.However they almost always will be tracked by either RADAR systems once airborne, and many also have a telemetry data link as well, which gives position and velocity amongst other things. As well it is kind of hard to just fly anywhere, you tend to need a prepared landing strip in many cases, though small planes are quite regularly stolen and vanish. Big multi million dollar ones not so much.Helicopters on the other hand are very easily stolen, plus they can land almost anywhere and can easily be hidden, plus are harder to track, but the slowness is a big disadvantage, as you can do a visual follow using another or fixed wing, and have a response team at the LZ.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2017, 03:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on October 13, 2017, 10:20:14 pmAccording to Wikipedia, Mr Atkinson does have a degree in electrical engineering from Newcastle University, and a Masters from Queen's College in Oxford.