Dishonest Chinese power supply "engineering" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 05:35:19 am
content: Had an old PC power supply laying around that had a DC choke between the AC mains rectifier bridge and the main electros. PSU has a 480 watt rating so this choke would likely help it to have a better mains input power factor by lowering and widening the current pulses of the AC input waveform. So far so good. Opened up the choke to see what was inside.First off there is core material only in the centre leg.Then I find that there is actually no winding on the bobbin! The whole thing is just a fake!What a bunch of weasels the people that made it truly are.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 05:48:45 am
content: The irony is that the fake choke actually would result in a higher efficiency than a real one, although that's moot when the PSU is badly designed garbage.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 05:52:48 am
content: Is the EMI choke (CMC) fake too?Surprised it's not jumpered out, that seems to be the first casualty of Chinese cheapenings.Tim

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 06:48:28 am
content: Normally with the fake choke they also replace the common mode choke with jumpers, remove the PTC and leave those pesky 1c Y capacitors out as well. Bet the main HV capacitors are also fake labelled, saying 220uF 250V, but being around 50uF instead. they splurged for the 3A diodes, must have been cheaper that morning than the no name 1A diodes.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 11:13:48 am
content: Its not just the choke that is fake. Their entire country is fake. Unless you buy product made in China that has the experienced, ethical eyes of a decent foreign company running the show, you are risking not only non-compliance of a product, but your own safety as well.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 05:00:50 pm
content: That was many years ago...http://www.pcpop.com/doc/0/294/294565_all.shtmlI think they've mostly moved onto fake active PFC now (i.e. none at all.)

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 05:26:26 pm
content: With no real core in the choke, I would be surprised to find a real winding. If there it could make noises, so better leave it out too.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 06:27:30 pm
content: That’s a state of the art homeopathic choke!

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 06:37:11 pm
content: It only has tolooklike the real thing to a casual observer. Muntzing brought to extreme levels.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 06:38:00 pm
content: You’ve got to wonder how many steps in the supply chain fucked up there. Quite a few. The factory producing them obviously. The buyer/reseller. The supply manufacturer. Whoever imported them. Integrators. The lot!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 07:48:44 pm
content: Someone got to the trouble of designing that choke. And manufacture it.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:04:01 pm
content: Holy crap, what a country. And some people love to compare China to early Japan. China will never become Japan of electronics. And that is because ofculture

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:33:59 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 05, 2017, 08:04:01 pmIt already is.QuoteAfter WWII during industrialization Japan produced a lot of crap, clones and counterfeits. Give China some time and it will change. Culture already is changing very fast.If you look through the the history, China was a world leader in science during middle ages. At the same time Europe was uneducated shithole.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:48:18 pm
content: Nothing wrong with Chinese stuff it is just a matter of getting what you paid for in exactly the same way as it is done here.Take your Mercedes to Mercedes to be fixed and it will cost you, take it to any number of back street garages (not all) and pay 10%, get 10% reliability on the repair.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:49:31 pm
content: The biggest fail in here is obviously the authorities of Australia (and any other geography), not to spot these with random picks from the import pool (and ban the import). Everything else should be suspected to cheat, lie, bribe and weasel out as much they can.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 08:57:29 pm
content: Customs officials are likely extremely time constrained.They have a limited amount of resources and their priorities are likely elsewhere. Also they likely depend on the public to tell them when a particular product is dangerous. They are reactive to complaints, not pro-active. Like government officials everywhere, they just want to 'deal with' the stuff thats on their desk.The volume of products coming in as import to any country is huge and it would be impossible to find them any other way. It would be like finding a needle in a haystack.There needs to be more attention paid to what constitutes safety.All of the safety standards we grew up coming to expect are all under pressure as volume goes up.Look at what happened in the WTO with the US COOL regulations on country of origin labeling, and with the so called dolphin safe labeling. Without more public input and even outrage when dangerous products are found, the same kinds of things will happen with electronics and other import-export products and services.The pressure to allow things may be bigger than the pressure to prevent them, unless people in both importing and exporting countries understand better what the shortcuts mean and potentially do.Quote from: Vtile on November 05, 2017, 08:49:31 pmSimilar issues are coming in professional services.If we want a world where the quality of things people buy is consistently improving and sustainable we will all have to all create that world.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 10:36:46 pm
content: Interestingly if that core material was touching the casing it was probably sorta working, but terribly.I wonder why they even bother at this point, like why even have that material in there at all if they're going to fake it lol.Which got me thinking... for an AC choke do you normally use laminated plates like you would a transformer or can you still use a ferrite torioid? Ferrite parts seem easier to get now days.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 10:41:22 pm
content: Core material is a function of working frequency.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 10:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 05, 2017, 10:36:46 pmThe reluctance might be hard to set with the toroid form core. PS. Chokes found on high frequency tuning circuits seems to be ferrite (obviously) and still in "traditional" transformer shape, but they do have the cap in the core/pillar/post to tune the reluctance.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 11:18:55 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 05, 2017, 11:13:48 amJoke's on us. They make what we ask. If we ask quality, they make quality. If we pay peanuts, they deliver monkey poop. You rarely negotiate on price, and almost always on quality.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 11:48:36 pm
content: Its the pressure that is driven by extreme price sensitivity.If we as buyers demand a race to the bottom, we get a race to the bottom.Quote from: VK3DRB on November 05, 2017, 11:13:48 amHow is that going to change anything? Some of the worst violators of labor standards in China are foreign companies.One (Taiwanese) company in particular is infamous for driving young workers to suicide.The attitude "Short term profits above all else" is to blame in this.

author: jeroen79
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 01:26:02 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 05, 2017, 11:48:36 pmWhich also applies to western buyers buying directly from China because it is cheaper.And western resellers just passing orders to and boxes from China.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 01:33:20 am
content: Quote from: jeroen79 on November 06, 2017, 01:26:02 amHow is buying directly from China worse than doing it through someone else?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 01:59:47 am
content: The cult of the global valuechains...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 02:14:56 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 06, 2017, 01:33:20 amIt makes race to the bottom even more competitive. As now local sellers need to compete with Chinese sellers. Thus reducing quality even more. Don't forget that many of those items are counterfeit crap but people looking at those prices consider locally sold genuine stuff being overpriced and buy that junk instead.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 02:39:21 am
content: The principle ofcomparative advantageis whats at play.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 02:40:11 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 06, 2017, 02:14:56 amThe problem is that the "locally sold genuine stuff" is really just the same crap, but with an inflated price.When my Weller croaked, I picked up a cheap ($A65) "temporary replacement " from Jaycar.I assumed it would use a cheap SMPS so was surprised when it seemed heavy enough to include a 50Hztransformer.Anyway, it was pretty dire, so I struggled through a few jobs with it, & retired it when I picked up a cheap second (or third) hand Weller.Out of curiosity, I opened the Jaycar one up.It consisted of a Mains rated light dimmer, & an iron to match.The "transformer" was a couple of weights glued into the base of the box.OK, it was cheap, I shouldn't have expected much of it, but it really wasn't "fit for purpose" at all.Would I have done that much worse, buying direct from China?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 02:50:41 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 06, 2017, 02:14:56 amMaybe customs is doing its job around here, but I'm not seeing cheap Chinese products competing with brand ones. The only difference is that you cut out the middle man and therefore the overhead of stock and personnel walking around. It's not a race to the bottom if it's the same stuff. Though I see a lot of companies stupidly trying to compete on price, which is something you'll never win. You have to add your own value, like by providing warranty and customer support.Cutting out the middle man might mean some middle men going under, but that's how the world works. You need to find a way to be relevant or your time has come.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 03:05:01 am
content: I don't agree with the 'blame the victim attitude'. It is impossible for the consumer to trace the quality and lineage of every thing they buy, let alone the components that make it up. The 'audiophile market' is proof that price is no indication of quality and performance. Buy only high priced name brands? There will never be any upstart competition. Let's put the blame where it belongs and that is on the dishonest people. Period.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 03:10:33 am
content: Military or secret stuff doesn't get off-shored, ever.It's pretty much exempt.That's where job security will be.Everything else ...

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 03:58:10 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 06, 2017, 03:10:33 amExcept they are not..https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/19/us_military_fake_fpgas_guilty/

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 04:23:51 am
content: 1. No one has ever gone broke, selling something at a cheaper price than all their competitors.(Probably an overstatement if taken literally, but history is full of direct examples, and few if any counterexamples, where higher quality or price wins out.)Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 11:18:55 pm2. It takes two parties to create dissatisfaction: the seller providing poor quality products, and the buyer accepting them as given.If one cannot afford to perform an inspection upon receiving the goods, and doesn't have remedies in place (supplier replacements, lot rejection, insurance, etc.), then one must not have a very high expectation of the goods to begin with.Or to put it another way, how would one have any expectation that their supplier will check things that are one's own responsibility?Caveat emptor!The principle is also more general than that. Example: it takes two to lie, one to tell it and one to believe it.Tim

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 04:48:24 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 06, 2017, 03:10:33 amApparently, even super secret military hardware gets made in China.https://www.defensetech.org/2012/05/30/smoking-gun-proof-that-military-chips-from-china-are-infected/

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 05:06:34 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 06, 2017, 04:55:54 amSuper secret hardware does get made in China. There's no bullshit going on here.Though I guess you're referring to the possibility of a backdoor being planted. Considering it's public knowledge that the Chinese are trying to, and succeeding in, stealing research and other valuable information on a large scale, it's likely they've at least looking into the possibility of manipulating hardware for similar purposes. Something you will inevitably be vulnerably to if you let others make your hardware. Note that the page you link to is a one man blog.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 05:15:47 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 05, 2017, 11:48:36 pmA suicide rate lower than the China and USA averages.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Analysis

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 05:17:22 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 06, 2017, 05:12:21 amI don't think either two would stop anything if the other country unilaterally decided to cease this kind of activity itself. Why would they? Both China, the US and probably others are intrinsicly motivated, rather than being provoked into doing it by others. They, and they alone, are responsibly for their own behaviour.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 05:28:36 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 06, 2017, 05:22:31 amThere's always an excuse

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 01:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 05, 2017, 11:48:36 pmIt is this creep who ran drove the workers to suicide and decided to fix it by putting nets over windows so they cannot kill themselves...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Gou.In the end it is all about making money.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 03:06:37 pm
content: T3sl4co1 - Simply because something is being transacted doesn't mean its a win win deal for both sides, often its a coercive situation.http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1187&context=lsfpQuote from: T3sl4co1l on November 06, 2017, 04:23:51 amMore and more frequently, when you have to exercise some choice, you find that that choice is fake.

author: Old Don
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 03:53:16 pm
content: Some of us in the west have forgotten the old adage of "Buyer Beware" applies to anything purchased at rock bottom prices.Many many years ago I bought a Japanese "21 transistor" AM only radio, more or less just to see how they used 21 transistors in a 6 transistor circuit. Some were dummies, some were used as diodes and some used as resistors and hidden in the mix was a crappy 6 transistor radio. I didn't get burnt since I knew it was a dud when I bought it. Don't forget that Japan had products marked "Made in Usa" meaning Usa, Japan.However, IMHO, China has mastered the don't blame us just because you thought you were getting something decent and weren't smart enough to know how to test before you bought it. Seemingly identical products sold by different sellers can contain good or bad internals. Ditto with different product lots from the same retailer.IMHO, on the China side of the problem is that we are long nose dumb barbarians. In the west the issue is sleazy retainers hoping to sell cheap crap at the full price as their formerly produced in the west products. If western importers tested each shipment and rejected the sub-standard lots then things would change, but then again if they did that then the extra profit margin would be cut with all the testing and paperwork and they won't go overseas with their production. "We have met the enemy and he is us".I'm sure China can produce and in some cases does produce world class products, but the Doctor Deming method of improving production and KanBan just in time supply is a long way from being a standard feature of China's production methods today. Five sigma is a long long way off.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 04:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: Old Don on November 06, 2017, 03:53:16 pmI've read about those Japanese "too many too be true" transistor radios in old Soviet "Radio" magazine from mid 1960s. In those years Japanese factories mixed transistor experiments and manufacturing together. If they made transistors that somewhat worked, they were used in production right away. Often a whole batch could be dud. So it's was a nice way how to get rid of dud transistors and use it for marketing at the same time.Watch from 34:00 how Sony made their transistors, 5% yield.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 04:59:50 pm
content: Japanese mega-corporations are some of the least ethical on the planet. And companies of this scale are required to manage foundry level businesses. The canonical approach to all problems is cover up first, then point fingers at someone higher up than you. Eventually someone will, at least metaphorically, fall on their sword. If the cat comes out of the bag, denial it is, point at a supplier. The propriety is false.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 06:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 06, 2017, 04:14:48 pmThat's an amazing video. Well worth watching if you like great engineering stories and semiconductor history.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 07:00:20 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 06, 2017, 03:06:37 pmI meant on the individual or corporate level. When you get into multinational and state level transactions, I would dare argue that "trade" is no longer "trade", but another arm of national economic, and therefore political, power. Which then fits under the theory of power structure, a more general theory that applies within a country (such as one with low economic diversity, and therefore subject to dictatorship), as well as outside (what deals the dictators make with foreign countries, and between countries in general, whether mutually beneficial or exploitative). Those relationships are amoral in nature, so we are left only to label them as moral or not, as an academic exercise.Tim

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 07:34:52 pm
content: Well, it's a start. I wonder how the government would react to getting complaints about sales fraud abroad? Image thing after all.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/china-is-finally-going-after-click-farms-and-fake-online-sales

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 11:06:17 pm
content: ^^ blueskull, that is one of the most significant postings I have ever read on this website. Thank you for your honesty and insight.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 11:59:55 pm
content: We're going to see the jobs and workforce equivalent of the 20 transistor radios soon as international regulations "open up" international procurement of services of all kinds, across borders whenever government spending is involved.Since services, not goods are 80% of the world's economy the changes will radically change the developed countries, shifting huge amounts of money upward.As credentials will be required to be accepted internationally, and deemed equivalent by the totally undemocratic and questionably legitimate "global economic governance's" fiat, (in the name of "deregulation", ironically) We'll start seeing a credentials race with 'credentials' likely becoming less likely to be legitimate as competition to put forward the lowest bid becomes a struggle for survival in one service sector after another.Subcontracting firms - "body shops" based in less regulated countries who sell their worker's services based on the idea of getting several workers for the price of one, compete mostly on cost, are able to do it because of little known, binding trade rules that are the product of a profoundly undemocratic process that even its advocates admit lacks legitimacy. For example, rules that allow them to pay workers temporarily working in other countries their at home wages for as much as several years at a time, as long as they remain employed by that same company, a system much like the infamous kafala system.So its likely we'll see perverse ebay like incentives to lie about credentials to channel contracts to global MNCs and a race to the bottom on wages and benefits as the world is sucked into what is aptly called a "race to the bottom".

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 04:11:14 am
content: @blueskullThank you for opening up. That post deserves to be screenshot-ed, printed out and hanged on the wall by every EEVBlog Forum user in front of their computers, to serve as a reminder and be referenced each time they have to or going to transact with China.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 10:36:03 am
content: QuoteI really struggle to get my head round why this is so. UK is now firmly a "services" country rather than any sort of manufacturing/research/agriculture but to me it's just a pile of people skimming off the top for no real gain.Surely it all boils down to product at the end of the day, what reasons are there for services if that is not the case.I do include holidays, health etc as "product" in that statement though I suppose they could be classed as services.All too confusing for old gits like me.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 10:58:02 am
content: I suspect that is only temporary. If you look at the UK, it's getting to the point where there are a lot of unemployable people because they don't have the service-level skill required as it turns out that some people aren't suited to academic or service jobs. That marginalises people and divides the population which is why the country is currently a gigantic turd-muffin about to implode on itself. It'll level out and we'll start manufacturing stuff again when we devalue enough for us to be cheap labour again.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 03:09:51 pm
content: Its more likely they will invest that money somewhere else, that's in part what all the fuss over investment treaties is about.But, nomatter where any new expensive plants are built realize that theywill only employ a tiny number of people compared to in the past.Huge expansions in online selling will result in negatives for job creation because they will decimate millions of small businesses and retail stores, businesses that employ everyday people.Its all about so called "efficiency gains" which means shedding costs.. Jobs are costs-The future will be a job-sparse one. They are trying to clue us in.Amazon or whatever will deliver your packages with an autonomous vehicle or drone.Quote from: bd139 on November 07, 2017, 10:58:02 am

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 03:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 07, 2017, 10:36:03 amThat is called an "efficiency gain" when they shed jobs and increase profits.Quote from: Mjolinor on November 07, 2017, 10:36:03 amThe whole point of capitalism is buying low and selling high, so value added is the key.Companies in the developed countries have become experts in "optimizing" the "value" in their "supply chain".Its all based on comparative advantage. The doctrine of "global supply chains" advocates the use of the best workers for the cheapest costs and uses competition to trim down all costs in an ever increasing manner. (particularly the cost of labor) Automation is basically adding free labor. So wages have to fall, and skill levels have to rise, to compete with it.Stories like that of John Henry should be telling us how crazy this is. He won the race against the machine.. but it came at a huge cost for him.When we value people only by what those people can do to make others rich, and not because they are people with dreams and goals of their own, we are bound to have problems as machines do more and more of those things for free.People are not machines. Additionally, as machines become intelligent, we absolutely must, our species survival depends on this, we must treat one another with respectand eventually, treat intelligent machines with respect. And especially not ask them to kill other human beings for us.I think "do unto others as you would have them do onto you" should be a law, as its an imperative for our species' survival over the coming century. This is a transition time and they are doing everything the exact opposite of what they should be in order to steal the planet's entire future for corporate profit, despite or perhaps because of the fact that machines are making it possible to have a fully productive economy as (far as production of the necessities of life) without many people. That shouldn't mean governments are forced to stop helping people but that's what they are doing. Behind the world's back. Via agreements like the 1994 GATS and its many progeny. Trade and investment agreements.Let me make a proposal here.Maybe some other far more developed race is out there who would like to exploit this planet just as we have, but is held back by some larger law, of justice, unless we cross some kind of line. The best way we can avoid crossing that line is to treat everybody with respect and drop the path we are on now which will lead us to disaster.They are gutting democracy for corporations, and not telling anybody.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 05:00:15 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 07, 2017, 03:09:51 pmBeats autonomous dick heads. One just tried to ram a box through my letterbox and got it stuck.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 06:08:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 07, 2017, 05:00:15 pmTransmission line distortion, add a bigger compensation cap.