There is NO excuse for being uneducated - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 01:36:38 pm
content: Thanks to Aldo in the passive probes thread in test equipment, I did a search on free online college courses.There are a number of services that aggregate free online courses across universities and colleges worldwide.https://learning.edx.org/being one example.I grew up "poor"; single uneducated "parent" in public housing. I just now lost all patience with anyone who complains they are locked out from advancing themselves.Damn, all they have to do is stop streaming Survivor and spend that time in an online course. Don't even have to go to community college! Learning has never been more accessible!To Hell with their whining!

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 01:50:51 pm
content: well some don't even have access to that ...even in 2024 i know some an-alphabet peoples, who managed hide their problems pretty well until i saw something ...I i'm a partially self made man, did not got into college, university ...now at 54, i have lost half of my life in poor jobs ... until i got lucky 2-3 years agoand yes the "system(s)" are @#%$##

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 03:01:25 pm
content: Many employers have tuition reimbursement programs including Taco Bellhttps://scholarships360.org/financial-aid/taco-bell-tuition-assistance/With grants and scholarships, the first two years (community college) should be essentially free. The last two years may be a challenge but there are still grants and scholarships.Ultimately it comes down to doing the work. I worked full time and overtime all through undergrad and just full time during grad school. The Army paid for undergrad and my employer paid for grad. There wasn't much time for parties...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 05:55:34 pm
content: I agree that between the free libraries that are available in many parts of the world and access to the internet which is also widespread but not universal there is little excuse for being uneducated. Receiving the benefits of that education is often not as easy. Ranges from the obvious (no one in the home area has a need for the skills involved) to the stupid. Gatekeeping rules that require attendance at a university to get a degree and employers that hire by degree rather than by capability or laws that require licensing that in turn requires that piece of paper.I have been doubly fortunate, having been on the right side of those gatekeeping functions, and also by having colleagues who somehow escaped those gates and were able to exercise their brilliance without the formal piece of paper.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 06:15:43 pm
content: For the highly capable there are many ways to learn, and always have been. People of more modest ability, who can do quite well in a more formal learning environment, typically struggle without assistance. Highly capable people who failed to understand this thought MOOCs were going to be massive, but they failed to understand the needs of more average people. MOOCs have worked quite well for the highly capable, but have been underwhealming for the mass market.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 06:53:49 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 08, 2024, 03:01:25 pmX10 and I had NO time for parties. As someone from a very poor family I went into the US Mil specifically so that I could go to school under the GI Bill. But a marriage consumed seven years of the ten years that it was available so I had to finish four years of school in three years so I never went to the parties or other social events.The .MIL is a practical alternative that is available to just about anyone that WANTS an education and that is willing to work to get it. Today that are also all kinds of grants including the Bright Futures grants here in Florida and will pay most, or all, of the college costs for anyone that can manage to graduate from high school. Today, there is NO excuse for anyone not being able to go to college that actually wants to. But as someone that lives less than a mile from the 2nd largest university in the United States, my observation is that most (80+%) of the kids in college are there for the parties and the social life and so that they don't have to go find a real job. A friend of mine's son took over 9 years to get a 4 year degree (in basket weaving) at Arizona State and he only finished because his parents finally cut off his funding.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 06:58:02 pm
content: Don't forget that if you have internet, don't need to worry about having how to pay for electricity and don't need to work two jobs to make enough to feed your family, then you probably have time to educate yourself.Many in those positions of needing that education are not so lucky. The problem is not the access to the learning materials - but having the means so that you can dedicate the time and resources to actually use it!Otherwise you are only the proverbial rich guy telling the poor to stop being poor - "just look at me, it is so easy, you have no excuse!"

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 07:12:22 pm
content: Even prior to the proliferation of online interactive courses, torrent sites had plenty of e-books/pdfs of university text books.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 07:18:14 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on November 08, 2024, 06:58:02 pmWhy did you make a good point sound so dumb. The internet, and the small amount of electricity needed to access it, are not an obstacle for even poor people in western countries. The real obstacles for many people are space and time. Studying without a comfortable space is really hard. Some poor people have too much time on their hands, but many do lack time because they work so hard just to survive.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 07:38:22 pm
content: Maybe with between 16-30 years, yes, they're usually the strong years, but don't forget about working, sleeping, homework, social life, maybe wife and children...So after 8 hours of had work a day not everyone can spend hours in online courses, or doesn't have the requiered energy, plus you'll hardly retain anything unless you have easy job and sleep well, which is also becoming rare these days.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 07:54:25 pm
content: I think OP's take on it is not right for a few reasons I've seen.1. Learning is difficult, unpleasant. It requires patience, focus, tenacity etc. which is a lost skill in people. Children are now raised with a lot of "screen time" and thus have a very short attention span. They cannot learn to the depths of generations prior. And who needs to learn, you just "google it" or ask for the answer.Second, learning something means you will be wrong sometimes. This is also unpleasant and the school system is all about "right" or "correctness" as a major personal power. In electronics the most fun is being wrong, it's when you will learn neat stuff. But nowadays it's all about being right, especially on social media.The younger generation is incapable of figuring things out because they squirm to no end in discomfort at not knowing- instead of being OK with that or even enjoying it.2. Some people are dumb, have low IQ. Education, learning etc. is a terrible experience for them. In class they are surrounded by students that can learn, get higher grades, but they can't. So their self-esteem takes a massive hit and eventually they hate learning and hate school - for life.Decades ago when I decided to go to tech college, my friends would talk to me about my decision and I was surprised at their reasons for the dislike of "school". I told them it was not high school because you're not forced content but instead taking courses on stuff you like. I told them learning something is not that hard, not to just give up.So I had at least 6 friends go to post-secondary after I talked to them about it. A few minutes talk changed their minds. That was really surprising for me. Major fork in the road of a person's life. Somehow I trail blazed.My not so bright high school friend who avoided education went on to rob a bank. The casino of crime lol.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 08:00:13 pm
content: Yes, I think there's no excuse for declaring there's no excuse for being uneducated. For all the reasons given just above.Look: people are all different, and their circumstances are also different. Some of these circumstances are within their control, but others aren't. Poverty, for one thing, is a crippling condition, and many fewer people in that condition are going to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and educate themselves.There are always exceptional people who end up being very successful and well-educated despite coming from horrible circumstances, but these people are the exception, not the rule, and it's unfair to hold them up as examples and say "See! They can do it; why can't you?".

author: porter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 08:30:14 pm
content: My career slowly shifted from hw (1980s) to sw (y2k) so I'm very appreciative to EEVBlog as a educational resource.Thanks Dave Jones(that's what she said)

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 09:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 08, 2024, 07:18:14 pmIf poor people were paid more, then they could spend more time upskilling and learning, rather than working long hours at slave wage rates just to pay power bills and rent.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 09:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 08, 2024, 09:01:00 pm"Poor people that are paid more" are essentially middle-class people, and there's zero evidence, unfortunately, that these spend more time upskilling on average in their daily life. They just work long hours as well, with better rates and mostly pay the bills as well, just with better housing and nicer cars. I know you were meaning to defend the idea that blaming their difficult condition on poor people isn't right, but poor or not, the OP still has a point. We as a whole spend way too much time on useless entertainement, and sure, there are exceptions, but on average, most of us have the ability to learn something.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 09:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 08, 2024, 09:01:00 pmIf the rate of pay for the kinds of jobs poor people do were higher, they'd be unemployed. So, they'd have plenty of time for study, but that's probably not the goal you were looking for. High pay ahead of a a high value/productivity employee just can't work.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 09:24:33 pm
content: To be fair, this is kind of like a kid growing up in an inner city with uneducated parents who only know the neighborhood as their universe. That kid does not know the range of opportunities that exist unless he gets a couple good teachers in school. I do wonder how my "whiners" would respond if they were informed how easy it is to access education for free? As it is, you do have to be self motivated and somewhat imaginative to find these online courses.OTOH, given my life experience, I am somewhat skeptical even if this was more widely communnicated.Am I self made man?Hell no. An awful lot of people held their hands out to me. But I had to show I wanted what they had to offer. I will spare you the "When I was a boy" stories. I simply did what needed to be done to get ahead. Obstacles were simply challenges that had to be met and worked around.I remember Christmas dinners left on the porch. So I have always been empathetic to those who do not have resources.But in this day and age, learning has never been so accessible. At no charge! Better than Guttenberg! All you have to do is apply yourself. If kids who were diagnosed as autistic or learning disabled or cognitively deficient can graduate from college.... (my policy career included special ed research)Look at all the immigrants in whatever country that figure out how to learn and get ahead. Compare successful farmers to those who go under. Self learning despite 14 hour days and financial uncertainty.Whether it is understanding history, literature or a technical field, it is easier today to get educated than at any time in history. The only question is whether the time is spent watching reruns of Seinfeld or exercising the brain. Yes, it takes work and can hurt. But so does physical excercise.I highly value people who go to night school (which I tried for free when I worked at Johns Hopkins Universty and found it damned hard; stopped after one course.).I especially value people who like my mother worked as a female janitor in the public schools. And I let them know it. I KNOW there are people who are stuck in position and cannot move for very real reasons. But they do not whine. They simply plug along.But people who complain about their lot in life and do nothing to move forward I do not understand. Our tickets for this ride are time limited. I have no intention of wasting time complaining when I can be exploring.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 10:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 08, 2024, 07:54:25 pmYour other points are good, and I see what you are saying here, but it doesn't line up with what I experienced.Basic math, physics, and electronics are essentially known, so there is a right answer to things. Being wrong and making mistakes is always expected.Quote from: watchmaker on November 08, 2024, 09:24:33 pmSo did you have a couple good teachers in school? I know I had many, without them I don't know if I'd be at this level.I don't want to get into politics, but depending on the state you grew up in, there is also a very large difference in available funding and student outcomes for K-12 education.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 10:50:24 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 08, 2024, 10:46:36 pmAlthough its really messed up that school funding can vary so much across a single country, in the US there seems to be no relation between school results and funding. Many of the districts we keep seeing in the news where hardly any of the pupils are up to minimum standards are among the better funded ones.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 08, 2024, 09:01:00 pmIf "poor" people were paid as much as they think that they should be paid then they would have no incentive to get a better job; or to get a better education so that they could get a better job.That is the mindset where many people are today, they're not willing to work to get an education so they can't get a better job and instead they riot and demand a higher minimum wage. The McDonalds workers in California that had been working in McDonalds for 20+ years for minimum wage and that were rioting in the streets a few years ago demanding a $25 per hour "living wage" are a good example. Hell, I worked in McDonalds too. But when I was fifteen years old and didn't have a car or a driver's license or even a high school degree. But I only worked there one summer and the next year I had a much better job. Minimum wage employers like McDonalds are only good for temporary jobs for very unskilled people, they're not supposed to be acareerthat pays a "living wage" for 40+ year old people with families.After I got out of the military I took a good paying job as a computer field engineer but even there I needed/wanted to earn more but I found that without a college degree, no one would hire me for a better paying job. So I saved up some money, quit my job and went back to school and got an engineering degree. Thestarting payat my first job out of college started at over twice the maximum that my old job paid and eventually maxed out at about five times higher than my previous job.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:25:44 pm
content: QuoteThe sentiment and points sound ok, and I would like to blame some people for being the way they are, but this attitude is a little short sighted and for the world population at large, there will always be uneducated people. And, whether you live in a third or first world country, it will still happen. I can only place personal blame on uneducated individuals who are in the top 1% of our society since their birth. Everyone else will have legitimate reasons built over a lifetime which you arent able to see.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:29:48 pm
content: Watching Charlie Kirk videos, I 100% understand why someone want to opt out of the education system.My education was practically free. Costs were minimal, no student loan, politics free, at the best university the country had. Students were encouraged to have a rational though.I don't think I would want to go to university in the US today.Quote from: Andy Chee on November 08, 2024, 09:01:00 pmIf poor people were paid more, then everything would cost moreAnd they would be exactly where they are today, just with a bunch of inflation destroying the savings of the middle class as well.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 08, 2024, 10:46:36 pmBefore I answer about my teachers, I just want to say I agree with you about mistakes. The ONLY way to learn is by making mistakes. That is when we are forced to analyze our methods. You have to make mistakes in 3rd grade arithmetic to understand how to carry or how to do division. As one micromaching instructor was fond to say "Another opportunity to excel".ALL of my school teachers were great. I grew up in NY during the time of the Regents Exams. Many of my teachers were Jewish immigrants from after the war. Some were camp survivors. I totally agree about school funding. Many are unaware the Feds got involved in school funding NOT for touchy feelie reasons, but because too may males were too uneducated for the draft.My most favorite teacher was Mr. Vanzo, my voc ed Electronics shop teacher. I had been in the gifted and talented programs since 6th grade, but being me, I rebelled in the 11th grade and went into the shops (I was BORN a curmudgeon). Anyway, I watched him teach thrown away kids how to do polar and imaginary math, Thevenin and Norton. This was so that we could design/build our own devices in 12th grade. Today this is called STEM for college bound kids. Go figure.He actually inspired me to go into educational policy.I also had a 9th grade Social Studies teacher (Mr. Driscoll) whose mantra was "READ damn it, anything!!"From Kindergarten on, as she went off to school, my goodbye to my daughter was "Learn something".New Hampshire is one of the worst states for public school funding. And the citizen decision making regarding taxes and schools drives me nuts. I have stories from when I worked in special ed and a county was taken over by retirees in the 1980s. Why should I pay for school when my kids are grown? Of course the answer is "Who paid for yours?", but then they come up with some lame comment.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:38:35 pm
content: My parents' education was interrupted because they spent their youth in a concentration camp as unwilling guests of Adolf. I wonder what school life is like in Ukraine and Gaza today?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:44:36 pm
content: The government in some countries will punish people for trying to become educated.Fear for ones life seems like a perfectly valid excuse to me.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 08, 2024, 11:44:36 pmLook at the women in Afghanistan who make learning a priority for their daughters despite the threat of death. I understand your sentiment, but people make, live and die by their choices.Inquisition, etc.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:57:10 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 08, 2024, 11:44:36 pmThrough most of history governments have feared an educated populace, and only a small number of jobs really required an education. A lot is of made of the suppression of women's education, but it wasn't much different for most men. It was only the industrial revolution, and the need to have most people at least about to read write and do simple maths, that lead to mass education.

author: flipper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 12:24:21 am
content: You could post this to TikTok, in a way easily digestible to the crazies who hang out there. That place is a SEA of ill-educated people.I often help people with emotional support and counselling, a lot of whom use TikTok, that’s how I know.Don’t EVER get an account there unless you absolutely HAVE to; I feel my IQ drop by 100 points every minute I’m there.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 01:29:00 pm
content: BTW, in USSR, those guys who'd preferred the mine-pub-football-box-girls lifestyle were generally paid better than an engineers. So millions were happy doing a dumb jobs from generation to generation. Yet many people pursued a university education and the universities didn't experience applicant shortage. Yes, education was free, but being an engineer typically resulted in less salary. So it's not always as simple as dumb stupid economy.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 04:58:05 pm
content: Some countries greatly value education towards advancing a nation and its people. Other countries do not.Businesses resent the higher wages of educated people and now we have them cry "there are no qualified people" as a shortage... really- of cheap labour. MBA's push outsourcing to save money there as well.We learn by doing, practicing, repetition.Online college courses - I think they would be like watching TV. Retention and learning isn't there, the brain considers it fluff content.To learn to drive a car, you need to get behind the wheel. To learn electronics, you need to solder parts, breadboard and use test equipment. To learn mountain climbing, you need to leave the desk chair. To learn to play guitar, you need to pick one up and work it.Using a computer and mouse - is that a "course"?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 07:38:24 pm
content: During the height of the Covid pandemic, many (most) colleges and universities turned to online education and the courses were excellent. Learning about the new revenue stream, many (most) have kept the model. What is there to gain sitting in a lecture hall with 400 other students?Clear back in the late '70s, Stanford University was broadcasting their EE lectures to classrooms provided by the various employers in Silicon Valley and the resident students were also taking the very same courses via a video link on campus.We know how to do this. Khan Academy, Calc Workshop and many others have very detailed programs and tools like Desmos.com and SymbolLab.com fill in the gaps. There are plenty of forums should questions arise.BTW, many of the online college and university programs result in an actual diploma, the same one the resident students receive. Unfortunately, the tuition tends to be the same as well.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 07:43:57 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 09, 2024, 07:38:24 pmGee, i don't know: how about better and easier interaction with the teacher? and with other students?Keep in mind that every Zoom session, every chat window puts you at least one more arms length away from real interaction.Young people have no clue, though, as this is the world they grew up in. More's the pity.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 07:49:26 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 09, 2024, 07:38:24 pmDuring the height of the Covid pandemic MOOCs were already quite old, and had been failing badly. Many residential colleges and universities turned to online education, and the results were dismal. However, learning about new revenue possibiltird many have kept this model, as only the money really counts. Sitting with 400 other students in a lecture theatre used to work well to keep those people focussed on one thing. This is something many people find hard. Now, there are many distractions available in a lecture theatre, so they work less well. However, they still keep people a bit more focussed than in a less constrained environment. What happens outside the lecture theatre is the bigger part of what makes effective colleges work well, and I'm not talking about the sex drugs and rock and roll. I'm talking about the kind of human interactions that are a massive help those who are not in the top 1% of performers.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 08:52:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 09, 2024, 07:49:26 pmOr, for the more introverted students, they might feel lost in a sea of humanity and have social interaction with none. In-person time with a professor is likely impossible in a class of hundreds and questions are directed to TAs during special study sessions. These sessions are where the real learning happens.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 08:55:52 pm
content: there is a problem with learning online that is the practical stuff. its not good for hardware engineering. You just need lab experience to be any good. Well unless its what I would consider to be 'mad over funded' where you get bored people to try to 'sort out' the 'missing links' for a new 'theoretical' engineerI always noticed the people that say you don't, have a view that is abstract and not practical.3d printers give mechanical engineers a bit of an advantage here at learning from home, for static objects design or for weak low stress systems. But the good ones will need like a lathe and mill to see 'what its really about'I think some people had alot of success with things like analog discovery and raspi in the sense of having a 'reasonable' lab for 'regular students' (most people would consider the amount of money and equipment we put into our hobby as extreme that gets us to a more advanced level). I think raspi and AD kind of put a 'societally normal' home EE into the same league as a home MechE with a 3d printer and a few things from home depot. But EE's got FUCKED hard now because they cracked down on samples, which normally let you play with some pretty fancy stuff before your first job, but they got boosted by services like JLCPCB to some extent.I saw this attempted to get leveraged by putting a raspi in the center of a rather ambitious work project, that got wrecked because of some kind of EMC like problems they did not anticipate with 'scale' that tanked the projectAnd this all leads into my belief that some things just 'dont go into the brain' unless they have a 'physical' component.I don't know much about software but I don't think its as rosey as people say because of the realities you might face on a corporate network (program restrictions, security restrictions, OS restrictions, license restrictions (oh boy, see what happens when you 'follow the guidelines of a 'coding' community and misuse a license in corporate! the question is, do you know how to solve the problem WITHOUT it getting sticky with libraries that have licenses in a reasonable amount of time )

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 09:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 09, 2024, 08:52:58 pmIf you are in a place where they use TAs, you need to find yourself a real college. I know its pretty common in many places now, but its a scam.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 09:11:44 pm
content: over worked people with no education experience, usually with a grudge against the professor they work for (they get workdumpedon them) . what can go wrong ?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 09:31:25 pm
content: Huge apologies for the wall of text, but this is important:The thing we are lacking is showing kids how to learn for themselves.It can be difficult to find the way for yourself if you don't have anyone guiding you, although many –– including all members participating in this thread, I suspect –– do end up finding it on their own.It is the most important thing every human being should learn in primary school, after reading and writing. Everything else you can fill in later. Fortunately, you are never too old to learn, not even to learn howyoulearn, because it is built in to us humans. Some do have afflictions that make it harder, yes, like dyslexia and memory issues, but it is only impossible if you have severe mental impairment.Many learn best by using their hands, from physical actions. For some, that suffices; for others, they learn more from the errors they make.Many learn by explaining their understanding, for example by writing notes in their own words.Some learn best by reading/hearing, and then from trying to apply their understanding for solving problems. I belong to this category myself, although my memory is greatly aided if I write my own words on paper by hand.Some learn best by observing others. I don't mean mimicry, or copying their actions! I mean, they relate to other humans and one-on-one interactions much better than tothings, and trulylearnfaster when they can observe other people or discuss it with other people, or approach the thing from a human-centric viewpoint, for example by examining what happened to someone involved.Very few learn by reading alone.Repetition helps, but is actually a matter of timing rather than number of repetitions. The neural pathways get stronger if engaged at specific intervals. The exact details vary from person to person, and as you get older you can getmuchmore effective at recognizing and leveraging this in yourself.There are many other ways I don't know of. Thing is, they are allproperways to learn. What works best, works best, and that's it. One reason us humans are so successful as a species –– I mean, we thrive inallenvironments on Earth, from the poles to the equator: something that basically no other species of animal can do –– is our ability to learn.An important facet of that is that individuals learn in different ways. Forcing a specific way is no good, because it is like stuffing a square peg in a triangular hole. Or forcing a left-handed person to write with their right hand, or vice versa. (Hand/lateral dominance details can be observed in most mammals. Even cats prefer one paw for precision work.)The main way schools in Western cultures fail today is actually not incompetent teachers, but the school environment forcing a specific way/mode of learning, and not accepting/allowing the many others.What we need, is a set of Youtube/Rumble/Whatever videos targeted for kids and another for adults, or many sets each targeted on specific culture or background, that explains this and encourages people to try and find what works for them. Most members here have learned this for themselves, often early on, andfeelthat everyone should have done so already; yet, it is not so. Learning efficiently is a skill on its own, and varies from person to person! The most common pitfall in schools is picking the path of least resistance, which usually means passing tests instead of actually learning. The difference betweenlearningandmemorizationshould be particularly highlighted. The latter is useful, too, for things like basic arithmetic (multiplication tables), but on complex issues leads to passing tests instead of learning things.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 09:49:03 pm
content: Without redirecting; my focus for the original post was adult learners. Those who find themselves griping about being stuck where they are and not doing anything about it. Yet, there are an abundance of offerings of free online courses that would help them advance themselves with a little effort.Like the farmers who sign up for every course put on by their ag extension department. It takes effort and serious commitment, but it is possible.If someone thinks just viewing a lecture on youtube is going to do the job, they are very naive. You have to do the work, the problem sets and the labs. Watch one of Lewin's MIT lectures. If you do not pause it and think through what he is saying, you are missing out.You get out according to what you put in.I was not suggesting this was a replacement for a school based education which may be the best option. But not all (especially those over 30) can take that option. It IS an option for those who are stuck and cannot afford the money or time for in person classes. But like night school, it is very demanding.But the free college courses of study go far beyond engineering (Math, history, literature, whatever). This is an astounding change in the availability of learning opportunities. And for HS kids in rural underserved schools, it can be a game changer (think advanced placement courses).

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on November 09, 2024, 09:49:03 pmI know. My point is that some are limited by never having learned how they themselves learn (best/effectively/with least frustration), and most do not know that that is a thing. Many, if not most, humans believe that everyone learns the same way. That is not true.And also that if extended to kids, we'dreallyopen up the learning potential of the entire population. We no longerrequireorganizations tolearn, only to test/grade/certify. For some odd reason, "organizational" learning is still considered superior, regardless of the results.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:14:17 pm
content: I left school with no qualifications at all.So ended up in a labouring job which I hated.One day I was in the job centre and spotted an advertisement for a training opportunities cheme.I applied and had to do 2 maths exams to get on teh course.I passed the first exam but failed the second one.So I went away and worked hard to catch up.I eventually passed the second exam too.I went away for a year on the course and studed industrial electronics.After a week the tutor said he didnt think I would manage the course.So I worked hard to catch up and eventually got to the top of class.I did the exams at the end of the year and got distinctions.If you have drive to get on then you most likely will get on.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:23:23 pm
content: A distant cousin said to me "I don't know how to study", "I don't know how to do homework"That was an eye opening moment. I tried to teach him - but not knowing how to learn was his struggle.You can't assume people know the basics.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 09, 2024, 10:23:23 pmI think we assume that after a number of years of schooling at least the basics of learning should have sunk in a little. However, when you read about failing schools, especially in the US, it seems like large numbers of reasonably intelligent children learn less than those with real mental disabilities in special schools.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 10:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 09, 2024, 10:00:45 pmQuote from: floobydust on November 09, 2024, 10:23:23 pmYES!!! This is a very real issue. In the US anyway, schools have done a very good job of turning off the natural desire of young humans to become competent. We are BORN as learning machines. Think about, a baby is diapered, fed and burped without doing a thing. WHY do they learn to recognize, talk, walk and eventually cause us grief? Because we are programmed to become competent (look up "competency" in the learning and psych literature. This is not a new concept.With a large number of exceptions (thankfully) somehow we turn this off for large numbers of kids.Childhood should be a time for personal exploration and making mistakes! The notion of telling a child he/she is successful just for trying is making incompetent adults (look up "learned helplessness"). Again, nothing new.It is very pernicious and interwoven into society and is very hard to dissect. Many have tried with Multivariable techniques; but the variable set is just too poorly understood.When I was in Switz and we were doing gear train calculations, a 35 year old woman who won a McArthur scholarship broke into tears almost every time division was involved. Very fearful of getting the answer wrong. I think I helped her.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 12:26:52 am
content: First day at new JOB I was told:"Look, you will be needing to STUDY, we will supply the book(s) 'title' for you to go purchase, on your own.""Study at home, on your own time."That instruction, from new boss, was a beginning for my study, of machine language.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 12:49:15 am
content: Quote from: watchmaker on November 09, 2024, 10:46:54 pmRisk aversion is a consequence of a highly litigious society. At some point, people cannot afford the consequences of risk taking.Consider the school playground. In my day™ kids would get bruises and the occasional broken bone. Today, those kids parents would sue the school for millions of dollars, resulting in the school closing the playground and keeping them indoors playing computer games.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 01:45:20 am
content: and then they start dying of strokes at the age of 40 because no one told them some cuts and bruises are a part of lifeI was told I don't 'have the time' to study the equipment manual at work before starting on the equipment because a small procedure that was totally inadequate was partially documented by someone over the years that I suspect did not know too much about electronics.times change

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 02:47:58 am
content: Quote from: flipper on November 09, 2024, 12:24:21 amI personally consider TikTok malware. Not only is the content pure garbage, but the security implications of having that junk on your phone is frightening.Even though I'm not a TikTok user, I still block all TikTok/ByteDance domains on my personal and work network.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 06:05:51 am
content: Education has not really caught up with modern society.We need to reduce the time spend learning subjects that are less needed in a world with computers and the internet.That time should be used to educate problem solving and critical thinking.Simply doing that would solve a lot of issues.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 06:09:19 am
content: So what would you suggest we throw overboard in this golden age of computers and AI and all? The classics? Shakespeare? What possible relevance could that have to modren life? After all,we have computers!

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 06:17:58 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 10, 2024, 06:09:19 amI didn't say we should throw anything overboard, just reduce things to make room for important skills that are not being taught at all.Problem solving and critical thinking skills are needed a lot more today than they were 50 years ago because the decisions of a single person now have a lot more power to affect others.Technology multiplies the reach of a people to affect more things.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 03:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 10, 2024, 12:49:15 amThose are two separate, but important, issues. Yes, things have become more litigious, and that affects a lot about the adult world. However, this wouldn't be too destructive without a generation brought up so coddled they have not experienced much of life, and are very unprepared for it. Hearing 20 year olds talking about "the adults" in a non-ironic way shocked me when I first heard it. People like Jonathan Haidt have documented how we have a generation entering the workforce who are years behind on common markers of reaching adulthood, both positive and negative. When did they earn their first pay packet? When did they first apply for a driving licence? When did they have their first alcohol? When did they have their first sex? In earlier life there are other markers of late maturation, like when were they first allowed to go to school on their own? As the number of years in full time education have increased, so we seem to have delayed every aspect of maturing our young.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 02:38:09 am
content: Quote from: Psi on November 10, 2024, 06:17:58 amand because of the availability of information but scarcity of vetted information.We now live in a neverending flood of information. Instead of just drowning in it, we need to learn how to control its effects on ourselves.Consciously filteringincoming information –– as opposed to letting your emotions or preconceptions filter it, what is what we intuitively and automatically do do –– is a skill we need to help kids start developing early: the earlier, the better. Adults, too.Similarly, searching and looking up information and assessing its veracity is paramount: when you can do that, and know how you yourself learn, there are very few limits left.The value of practical experience is increasing, because the theoretical knowledge is easier to obtain. In my opinion, kids should be exposed to all sorts of work, from early on. Even adults should be encouraged to try different things, maybe a single day doing something completely different. You do nottrulyknow what kind of work you actually like and prefer, before you try. Many people will have several careers during their lifetime, too; things just change too fast nowadays for not to.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 04:16:42 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 11, 2024, 02:38:09 amThe problem with multiple careers is that some banks and landlords might see that as too unstable to offer loans or rental housing.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 04:43:48 am
content: lack of motivation, too much socila media and videos, bad examples in life.j

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2024, 03:52:43 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 11, 2024, 04:16:42 amI'm not sure how true that is for banks. In my experience, they typically want your last 3 months worth of payslips and bank statements. I've never been ask about my career history when applying for a mortgage. Rentals might be different, but that's a whole different matter. I haven't rented a place for almost 20 years.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2024, 03:59:15 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 19, 2024, 03:52:43 amHeh; where I live, landlords will be happy if you can just hold down a job, period (and aren't a tweaker*).*a methamphetamine user

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2024, 05:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 19, 2024, 03:52:43 amIf the banks were interested in your career path, and its prospects, a LOT of people would have trouble getting loans. They just want evidence that you have a stable income right now. They aren't fortune tellers, and as long as there are no clear signs this income won't remain stable, like your job for the last few months has been putting together something that is about to end, they are OK. E.G. I suspect they might not have been happy with a French person's last few months pay slips last spring, when their work was entirely dependent on the 2024 Olympics.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2024, 12:36:07 pm
content: Learning and qualifications are vital to get a good job.The qualifications get you on the first rung of the ladder.Once in a job you can push hard to get on by learning as much as you can in the job.Even if you don't like the job that much, a year or two in it will give you something for your CV towards a better job later.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2024, 08:56:29 pm
content: The typical curriculum of science, maths, reading/language etc is still essential as it bridges towards higher education. If you skip during high development years or introduce other challenges it has a compounding negative effect.I'd be fine with life skills taught at an early age. I see many people struggle with basic concepts such as avoiding vices, budgeting/saving, parenting, interviews, respect, critical thinking etc.

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 06:12:10 am
content: There are always going to be Bludgers in the world who want to blame everyone else for their present station in life.How do we score are our kids efforts in raising our Grandkids?Mine rate between 5-8 out of 10 based on:To much Screen time ....to give the parents a break.To much junk food....to save cooking time.Not enough one on one with the kids playing catching ball, football, cricket , park time etc.But what can I say!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 09:10:51 pm
content: Why do engineers overlook the fundamentals?Here's some excuses and I don't see a remedy. Good luck straightening things out

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:52:30 pm
content: I believe floobs my post was about fundamentals, at least in terms of education. But you're right, make sure your boys are in order first, educate second.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 11:16:20 pm
content: A problem is a common education system that must accommodate both the dim and bright bulbs of society, that bell curve.The low IQ people get constant fail experiences and their self-esteem suffers, they dislike school. The smart, high IQ people get bored and waste learning opportunities.Teachers and schools have quotas to meet and somehow pass the herd through the system, despite students being ranked according to a number, their marks. Students with behaviour issues can upset entire classes.How can you educate within a common system where there is such a huge disparity?Then, many years later SURPRISE look who is in charge of the engineers, who are the CEO's? Hint: not the bright bulbs

author: hwasti
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:48:40 am
content: Most takes in this thread are arrogant, downright ignorant and offensive.Most people are looking around and seeing the learning opportunities available to everyone, opportunities that they have taken or would have taken if they were available when they were younger, and thinking that it applies to everyone, or even most people. That is pure bunk.You are where you are because of others. Your parents. Your extended family. Your environment. Your family's resources. Your family's race. Random people who have entered into your life (teachers, strangers, coworkers, teammate, fellow students...). All of that can be summed up in one word: Luck.If your parents did not model hard work and encourage you to learn and better yourself, you are SOL. No matter how much money society spends on you, no matter how much free education is available just a click away, you are not going to make use of it because you are neither aware of its value nor have the skills to make use of it.No matter how much your parents love and encourage you, if they have no resources, food is not a daily thing in your household growing up, your neighborhood is crap, your school has 1 computer for the whole school and teachers that are just biding time to retirement, your principal daily struggle as a kid is not to get wrapped up in a gang or picked up by police just because, you are SOL.No matter how much your parents encourage you, no matter how many top 5% of society resources they can lavish on you, if you are born with a 75 IQ, you are SOL.I will not even talk about your health, being born with a disability, a childhood injury...All the above are life stories of people I personally know.On the other hand, if your parents, even if that's a poor overworked single mother, can model the value of hard work, encourage education and self-betterment, society provides you opportunity in the form of well-funded schools, free college, free online education, and you are reasonably intelligent and healthy, then and only then, your lack of success is all on you.Here's the honest truth of my life: The smartest thing I did in my life was choosing who my parents were. They did help me a lot in getting where I am in life, but much more importantly, they gave me the skills and values that allowed me to get where I am.If you are thinking that "choosing who my parents were" is a ludicrous statement, I completely agree with you. My point is that who my parents were was a matter of luck and nothing else. I was not owed two educated, successful, incredibly intelligent, unbelievably loving, upper middleclass parents who stayed married to each other till their deaths in old age. That I had parents like that is my good fortune and all I have flows from that.Similarly, the person who has not made it in life despite all that the society has had to offer them, may have had the exact opposite luck. Their failure is just like my success, a matter of luck.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 08:01:27 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 10, 2024, 06:05:51 amDespite designing electronic systems for 40 years I find most of the maths I learned I never use.Running an electronics business requires other skills like procurement, book keeping, marketing, sales etc etc.I do everything myself.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 09:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on November 08, 2024, 11:35:37 pmLooks like things have changed with the resources lying around for someone to pick up and make use regardless of someone's opinions of them. I am pleased to learn a lot from Dave Jones over the years when he explains and shows things in the videos. No excuses there. I learn and leave with things that I can use later.Back in my day, at certain schools I been to many of them such as special needs, when students make mistakes the teacher just demote them to lower level or book they already went through rather than help them understand the or write down the mistake. The books I remember were thin and hardly had any examples in them just lots of questions. I remember one teacher like who turned out to be backup teacher. I couldn't understand what she was asking me to do, she struggled to explain things and very slow and some of the students fell asleep but she didn't seem to care. We use to have arguments when I brought in books to with examples to help me understand what she was trying teach.One day I was enraged and had a right go at her when I found out later that she hardly had any experience or understanding in maths and because she earned a degree in some other subject such as Geography she was put to teach maths to a bunch students who have language processing issues many who were way behind for the GCSE exams. When I challenged her she said because it is a low ability it should be easier to teach it, anyone can do it and showed me this document labelled "maths for low ability classes" with a bunch of these flow diagrams which if you get x amount of questions wrong demote to lower G(x) book that she said she got from the nearby university.I said so you basically you are teaching maths with no understanding, we have exams to pass and this is not acceptable. I can't understand what you are saying most of the time and look he's fallen asleep in the back. Then she went on with her threats that I anticipated she'd do (I'll take so and so away when you return to your house unit) and I said go ahead you do that I am going write a complaint against you on how you are failing us. (By getting them to go around in circles until they get bored and burn't out.)I continued to work from this book I brought in the one she complained about (how else I am suppose to get the examples from) in the library room with a little help from a therapist I met there who knew me once before until they got this retired maths for me 1:1 who use to work there a decade ago which they got in due to the shortages of maths teachers at the time. That maths teacher had an accident and had to have a knee replacement so he also covered.He was fantastic and showed me many different methods I could use to work out a solution in the exam if fall into difficulty or I think my first answer is wrong.No excusefor someone inexperienced and uneducated in maths but allowed to teach it "professionally" in schools when there are exams and league tables involved.Sometimes it seems you have to shout and scream to get things and then risk of being viewed as aggressive or someone with "challenging behaviour".

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 01:16:04 am
content: As posters have noted intentionally or unwittingly, you do not become educated by being TAUGHT. You become educated by LEARNING.If you are unwilling to learn, no one can TEACH you to become educated. If you are intent to learn, you can become educated byusingany number of sources and a bad teacher will not get in your way.But it all comes back to whether you use YouTube to watch cat videos or lectures on physics. Being uneducated in today's world is a choice, as many Afghan women are proving by going to schools at great personal risk.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 02:47:41 am
content: Quote from: watchmaker on February 17, 2025, 01:16:04 amI was told time again along the lines of "the most educated ones are the onestaughtfrom the private elite schools".Whether they actually learned from what was "taught" to them or not so does that mean that not all of them from those places are going to be educated?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 04:35:51 am
content: The entire MIT engineering degree course (and others) is available online for free.https://ocw.mit.edu/search/?d=Electrical%20Engineering%20and%20Computer%20Science&s=department_course_numbers.sort_coursenum

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 01:06:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2025, 04:35:51 amInteresting. It does look like the entire undergraduate course is now available. OCW goes back a long way, but the last time I looked (probably a decade ago) it was mostly specialised individual post grad courses.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 02:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2025, 04:35:51 amThere are many others as well. At one point I found an open courseware aggregator that linked to programs at University of Georgia, Stanford, University of Wisconsin among others. Programs from literature and philosophy to math, physics and engineering. I think I linked to that in Post no. 1.These resources are great when used in conjunction with Dave's Videos and the Real Analog you tube.Can you imagine an Edwardian "gentleman's" reaction to such open access to education for his stableboy?I stand by my thread title.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 04:37:50 pm
content: As I have told various nephews and nieces: Thereisalgebra in the real world, and it's all story problems.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 04:58:19 pm
content: I agree, there is little excuse for being uneducated. But also don't discount the value of a good professor and the stimulation of being in repeated contact with peers who share interests and motivation. Universities often don't achieve this ideal, but even approximations help.Self education is the best choice for some, the only choice for many, but should never be the only choice for all.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 08:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on February 17, 2025, 01:16:04 amAbsolutely!However, as MrMobodies wrote, some of us do have difficulties in learning by ourselves, and needgood teachersto find the ways of overcoming those. Let me use a proper analog:There is NO excuse for keeping up your health by walking the stairswhenever you can.That last caveat includes my key point. If you are carrying say a fridge, or lack a foot to do the walking with, stairs aren't the most sensible option if alternatives exist. Conversely, it means we should not simply get rid of all elevators and escalators, because for some they are necessary as workarounds. Of course, the issue is that their existence makes them an easy way to "cheat" to the majority of humans, whose health would be improved if they just walked the stairs more often.Learning is a skill the majority of humans develop themselves. Those who can, but due to laziness or lack of motivation or self-control, often claim their lack of education is others' fault, because blaming others is an easy excuse. I despise those people, and believe this group is the only one OP is talking about!However, those with learning difficulties do usually need the help of agoodteachers to work around the limitations. Even autodidacts often benefit from expert guidance –– one can always learn from others; and learning more efficient ways of learning itself is a hugely valuable skills most do not learn by themselves, and do need external help with ––, so we must not forget the importance ofgood teachers.Note how those good teachers are not delivering the information. They're often not experts in any domain, really; except for how different humans learn best. When a child, they help you find the motivation. They do not assume everyone learns the same way, they focus on those who need the extra help in discovering the ways they can learn. They are guides into the learning process, not gatekeepers or providers of knowledge. They are not lecturers, they're learning coaches.To go back to the stairs analog, good teachers are like people who mention the alternatives for those who have real physical difficulties with stairs, be the reason a lack of legs, or a heavy burden they're carrying. Bad teachers, however, are like people standing at the top of the stairs, ridiculing anyone having problems, and suggesting they stay down there where they belong; demanding people to walk in orderly lines and to walk at the same pace as everyone else. And for one reason or another, our school systems have surprisingly many bad teachers.Worst teachers are not interested at all in being a learning coach; they instead revel in their power of controlling the information flow to others. I think these people should not be allowed near anyone trying to learn something. Nor anything related to journalism or reporting, for that matter. There are a lot of this kind of people, who enjoy the feeling of control over others. I suspect they might actually be evil.Thus, the topic at hand has two completely separate facets. One is those with no learning difficulties blaming others for their lack of educations. The other is the damage we are doing to ourselves and our societies by having bad teachers, and not being clear about the value of good teachers to us all. These are notseparatemutually exclusive or opposite in any way, because those good teachers can actually help with the former too, by helping them discover their interest and motivation to learn. It's more difficult than even helping those with learning difficulties, but I've seen it done by close ones.The underlying issue seems to be that because in the past information itself was scarce, we needed teachers to be the filters to select the important and useful bits. Now, we live in an endless torrent of information flow, and we don't need such teachers at all, but sorely need guides and coaches helping both kids and adults –– and especially those with learning difficulties, or other issues dealing with the torrential information flow –– find the effective ways of learning, sifting through the information, to filter out the lies, fabrications and hallucinations, and so on. I wish we had a new word to describe this role change: it might make discussing the matter easier.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 09:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 17, 2025, 04:37:50 pmAh, but calculus, that's where the rubber really hits the road.After taking calculus, which gets you to solving many real-world problems, I realized that algebra was basically the tool you needed in order to solve problems involving the two great concepts of calculus: the derivative and the integral.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 11:38:13 pm
content: Yes, algebra is the "pre-rec" for calculus.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 12:39:35 am
content: Quote from: watchmaker on November 08, 2024, 01:36:38 pm

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 12:50:09 am
content: QuoteIm with billy ,why should I learn algebra? I've no intention of ever going there

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 01:13:08 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 17, 2025, 09:20:16 pmWell, at least until you get into analysis and realize you've just been hand-waving and pretending there was a road under you.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 01:24:51 am
content: Math –– both algebra and calculus –– only really started becoming interesting to me when I discovered interesting problems that I could only solve via math. The first "non-ordinary" use wasdescriptive geometryand associated algebra when I was 13 or so: the math of describing how 3D objects are observed on 2D surfaces. Yes, computer graphics and rendering.Right now, it looks like I've (re)discovered a way to draw the outlines of convex polygons, doing the same amount of work as Bresenham's Line algorithm needs to draw lines, except with anti-aliasing said edges in a mathematically exactly correct way. As a result, this gives me e.g. gauge needles that move at sub-pixel precision. This pleases me a lot.I'm not a mathematician, and never have enjoyed abstract math or math for its own sake; only as a tool to apply in problem solving. Even as a kid, I much preferred all the story problems. I do admit I hated the ones that were not precise enough, making me want to ask clarifying questions to find out what the asker actually needed.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 03:02:03 am
content: While I have found many engineers who claim never to use math, I really don't see how a true engineer can survive without it. I have always found math interesting, but not really enjoyable. I would certainly never make a hobby or career of it as many people do. But maths show up everywhere in engineering. From simple algebra in basic network analysis through differential equations in AC circuits and on to much higher level maths when doing sampling and digital filters. Control systems require their own tools including linear algebra, transform methods and more. The communications guys can get into complex analysis and there is still more math in reliability analysis and evaluation of noise in both analog and digital systems. Image analysis and recognition adds more.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 03:31:04 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 18, 2025, 03:02:03 amI got into Fourier series and discrete cosine transform (a transform closely related to Fourier transform), because I wanted to know how JPEG image compression worked in the nineties. Doing the same for GIF previously taught me about compression (LZ77).When Fourier series and transform came up in my physics studies in Uni, it was really easy to delve even deeper, because I had a practical need and use case for them already.It's like wanting to carve something, but not having the tools to do so effectively. Then, you discover chisels and gouges and adzes, and someone tells you about the techniques of using them effectively, and the dangers if applied incorrectly. It's much more fun this way, compared to the typical other way around, where you're told about the thing before you have a use for it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 04:35:58 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 18, 2025, 01:24:51 amI wrote a 2D rendering library years ago, based on distance functions. I don't know if what you did also uses that to some extent?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 06:03:28 am
content: I've found a way to do just the opposite. I can look at a 2D projection, and render back the 3D scene. In my head.And no, it's not a trivial task. Look at these cows, seems like the 3D reconstruction doesn't work that well for them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 06:09:48 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 18, 2025, 03:02:03 amThere are countless aspects of electronics engineering that don't require much math. You can do an incredible amount without much of it.Some will use complex math daily and wonder how anyone can do anything without it.And other can design the most complex products without the need for it and wonder why anyone needs it.The real world varies a lot.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 09:35:42 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 18, 2025, 04:35:58 amThe signed distance from a point \$(x_c, y_c)\$ to the edge of a halfspace described using \$a x + b y + c = 0\$, with \$a = y_0 - y_1\$ and \$b = x_1 - x_0\$ and \$c = (y_1 - y_0) y_0 - (x_1 - x_0) x_0\$ when it passes through \$(x_0, y_0)\$ and \$(x_1, y_1)\$ is \$(a x_c + b y_c + c) / sqrt(a^2 + b^2)\$. If one calculates the signed distance for a point, and scales \$a\$, \$b\$, and \$c\$ by \$1/\sqrt{a^2 + b^2}\$, then moving exactly one unit in the positive \$x\$ direction changes the distance by \$+a\$, negative direction by \$-a\$, positive \$y\$ direction by \$+b\$, and negative \$y\$ direction by \$-b\$; and the distance acts like the error term in Bresenham's line algorithm, in that the major axis is \$x\$ if \$\lvert a \rvert \gt \lvert b \rvert\$, and whenever the major step changes the sign of the signed distance, you next do a minor step. This is known.However, the signed distance between the center of a square and the edge of the halfspace onlyapproximatesthe coverage of that square by the halfspace. For example, consider a half space covering origin with its edge intersecting \$(z,1)\$ and \$(1,z)\$; \$0 \le z \le 1\$. It has area \$1-(1-z)(1-z)/2 = 1/2 + z - z^2/2\$, but the signed distance to the edge from point \$(0.5, 0.5)\$ is just \$z/\sqrt{2}\$. Area is quadratic in \$z\$, but signed distance from center linear. Both are linear only when the edge is parallel to a coordinate axis.The approximation is "good enough", because the maximum error is just 1/8. (It occurs when the edge is exactly diagonal, and covers 7/8 of the pixel. The distance is then half the distance between the center and the corner, approximating the area as 3/4.) If one scales the distance coefficients so that \$\lvert a \rvert + \lvert b \rvert = 1\$, then the approximation is \$0.5 + a x + b y + c\$, where \$(x, y)\$ is the center of the pixel. Again, steps along the axis affect the distance and the approximation by \$\pm a\$ and \$\pm b\$.I was talking about an exact solution. Fractional coordinates, or coordinates where the half-space edge intersects with integer coordinates, are just as easy to track, with overflow when stepping in the major direction indicating another step in minor direction is needed. Then, for major steps followed by another major step, the exact coverage is the average of the fractional coordinates (if the half-space covers the negative side of that coordinate axis), or one minus the average (if the half-space covers the negative side of that coordinate axis). The edge of the half space intersects with opposite edges of the square representing current pixel area.Major steps followed by a minor step correspond to the case where one or three corners of the square are covered by the half-space, and standard solution is to calculate the triangle area; only one multiplication is needed.TheshenanigansI think I've discovered allow one to avoid that multiplication. I'm not sure it is worth it, especially when you have a single-cycle multiply (and these arefractions, i.e. always between 0 and 1, with something like 10 bits in the product sufficient for extremely high quality antialiasing). And it is complicated, I'm not even sure my math is correct yet. Besides, vertices will still need to be treated via triangles, i.e. two multiplication per vertex, but using fractional coordinates that too is simple.So, I'd say no; I'm using the fractional coordinates to handle most edge pixels using addition (and halving) only. But, if we talk about avoiding the multiplication when the half-space edge intersects two sides of the rectangle sharing a vertex, then tracking the distance also comes into play. So, perhaps; not sure yet.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 06:32:02 pm
content: First year calculus course at Uni, day 1 they gave a test to the class. Basically a top level high school math test, many trick questions. "to let students know where they stand" and apparently nothing else. It did freak people out and low marks galore, to build your self-esteem in the dumpster.After the midterm, 1/2 the class was gone. ~50 students. I asked what happened and apparently the course was mainly Faculty of Business students, who got trashed on the midterm exam and they dropped the class. It was too much - the confidence hits and major adjustment- uni math with angles in radians and doing fractions in your head, not allowed to use a calculator etc.The only time I started liking math was LaPlace transforms and the frequency domain because I knew what that was. Math gets beautiful there.But university engineering workload gave you pretty much no time to understand anything, it was a constant rush on onto the next assignment/lab/class etc.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 07:58:18 pm
content: I agree. I took calc in college in the early 1970s. I came with bad algebra but I got thru the 2 semesters and diffiq. with C/Bs. But the hit on confidence, immaturity (especially) and looking at how confident everyone else "seemed", I dropped out of EE after the third semester.It is a lot more fun now that I can take my time. And according to my daughter, calculus is taught a lot differently now. Not whining, no complaints on how things worked out, just saying that learning is very hard inside a pressure cooker.Not to mention my shop teacher taught using electron flow which with my dyslexia made adapting to current flow an interesting exercise. I think it was because he preferred tubes.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 09:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 18, 2025, 06:09:48 amWhile I agree with this, I also wouldn't give an engineering degree to anyone who cannot pass basic algebra.From where I am, you need to hold a language certification to get any kind of university degree.If someone wants to only learn the minimum to be able to do a job, that's what trade schools are for. University degrees require you to be educated for more than one thing.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 11:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 18, 2025, 09:17:54 pmYou can do almost all engineering tasks without math. Some "engineering" tasks are in title only. For example many "engineers" run automatic TE, or collect data for analysis by others. One of my first "engineering" jobs involved making field measurements and then looking in the company standards notebook for the solution. And virtually any design job can be completed by the try something until it works methodology. Someone with years of experience in an area can make this work with few or no iterations. Others use the monkey see, monkey do methodology. I have seen dozens of designs that were mindlessly copied from a data sheets typical connections or an application note.But generally speaking mistakes and false starts are cheaper and faster on paper. When trials cost multiples of your annual salary math is vanishingly close to a requirement. Same thing applies when the cost of failure is large. Civil engineers and architects know this painfully well. And in these cases evidence that math wasn't used multiplies the losses.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2025, 11:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on February 18, 2025, 07:58:18 pmSame here (college in the mid-80s). I was a business major, but I hopped on over to the college of engineering one semester to see what that was like. Took a couple classes but that was it; the math was just too much for me. Polar notation and all that other stuff that made my head hurt. (Business majors can get by with very little math.)And this was after taking a semester of calculus. Even though I got the two great concepts (the derivative and the integral), for which I was grateful, it wasn't enough.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 01:34:28 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 18, 2025, 09:17:54 pmThat's an entirely different argument.You can be the smartest EE graduate with honors and know complex math like the back of your hand, but end up in an engineering job that simply doesn't require it.And more to it, if you attempt to use complex math when none is required, then you'll likely get reprimanded for wasting time.Reminds me of my first week at Altium. I was given a design task and came back a week later with the design and all the associated engineering documentation with theory of operation, calculations, design notes etc and proudly showed it to my boss. He just looked at me all puzzled, like "WTF are you doing wasting your time on that documentation?".I quickly learned what was expected and what was deemed to be wasting time.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 02:35:27 am
content: its amusing how they keep talking about continuity plans etc but then don't want documents for how to do anything you figured out.Even if someone wants it, you will document about 1% of what is needed because there will be like 2 people doing it maxI wonder how many dead projects there are because no one wrote anything down. dead useful projects that got forgotten and could have changed the industryyour real profession might be : annual wheel reinventorbut good documents are tools that you use to make more advanced projects in the future faster, building blocks, but I guess sometimes its so random that its almost impossible to use them, especially if you have a flavor of the month type leader

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 02:41:30 am
content: They don't want you to do it until they suddenly do (because of an audit of some kind) and then you'll have to work your ass off to get it done (badly) at the last minute.That's just-in-time management.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 02:44:52 am
content: engineering development theory:but what it ends up being is the lighting in a jar experiment, every single timeif you were to actually improve someones work and work out guidelines and boring stuff like that, your not doing impressive management ground breaking things. If you do write something down, I feel like people just try to get around it like a patent anyway, just for the sake of company internal credit. Lets figure out a different way to do the same exact thing, so we can say we made something new instead of better (wow, sure is nice to have a project where you know exactly what the results will be! the guy before you found something at a new destination and you went to the known destination through a different path and claim its new)Or, the other case, refuse to make a map and have people go bush whacking with no knowledge of the terrain. why do I have a feeling this usually ends up being SLOWER and LESS EFFICIENT ? Then eventually you end up with people in the gobi desert with maritime equipment. They don't know whats toxic, what is edible, where help is, how to find water, etc. I think its reasonable to say its similar to dismissing cartography while exploring!Old Chinese proverb: A person that rushes to a destination easily gets lost.So engineers think they got it all worked out in their head, and like getting lost in the woods, end up walking in circles for years thinking they are getting ahead, till they end up stepping in their own feces. Does anyone think they will get lost? How many times have you gotten made fun of for taking measures against getting lost? Did you ever let your tribe starve to death because they got lost? Unfortunately good habits that prevent you from getting lost are a bit silly. But if you get lost, your screwed.And if you can get lost just walking some where, a simple activity, how much easier is it to get lost while doing a complicated unnatural thing like engineering??

author: thermistor-guy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 03:09:26 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 19, 2025, 02:41:30 amOne time, my h/w designs got audited because someone else on the same (large) project stuffed up. The stuff-up was a set of digital logic race conditions:the other engineer's prototypes worked, but the production units (volume = 10k units per year) were failing intermittently.So everyone was getting audited. The best and most senior engineer in my department grilled me about my programmable logic/bus interface designs.I showed him my analysis that all set-up, hold time, and propagation delay constraints were satisfied in the worst cases.I'd used a visual (directed graph) technique that I had invented as an undergrad. It made it easy to check for constraint satisfaction. I wrote my undergradthesis on it. No-one asked me to do all this, it's just the way I design a product.He took away my analysis and other documentation that I'd written, but didn't hear anything back. All good, apparently.Still I was sweating. I'd done the work, checked it, it was all there, but still I felt anxious. The other engineer got demoted to another department, reputationruined.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2025, 09:05:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 19, 2025, 01:34:28 amYou are absolutely right about this. The deliverables should be known for any project, and it wasn't communicated well enough for you. Onboarding graduates, or even seasoned engineers can be very difficult. They come from a different work culture, and different requirements.But that's not really my point. For every engineering job that "doesn't require math" it requires someone who has at leas t a good sense what that math would be. You need to be at least some idea what is going on, even if you don't solve every single math problem you come across. At least get the order of magnitude right.And then there is the time where things go wrong. Because they will. You could design boards with the complexity of an Arduino with "shields" all day long, and don't calculate anything. But then one day something doesn't work, customer is expecting delivery yesterday, and it's the sole responsibility of the engineer to keep things on track.Or things actually don't go wrong, and your company has projects that require certification. And then suddenly most of the time is spent on documentation, or designing and reviewing stuff that was 100% out of scope until now.Someone with an engineering degree should be able to adapt to these challenges. As I said, if you want to layout boards, get a CID+ certification. It's cheaper and easier. For an engineer I expect them to be able to learn 95% that wasn't learned in Uni and more importantly to be aware of the complexity of things.I've seen so many times, people without formal education underestimating the challenges for a design. Because they've a limited understanding of things, they don't know what they don't know (Dunning Krueger) and try to do things that they are completely not equipped to do. And it's incredibly difficult to explain to a layman why something is wrong. Especially if it works. Socially as well as technically.To give you an example: We were using a certain sealant-adhesive to make our product. And it was leaking water in in a small percentage of the cases. Our management team gave the job to a production engineer (by title not education) to figure out why this was happening, who immediately said: "I always said this sealant is shit, I'm going to replace it with something else. Something else that is a bathroom sealant from the local shop, it works wonderfully". I wish this was a joke but no.Wasted so much time testing his new sealant and implementing it in production. Luckily we got info this was happening, and didn't ship anything with this. The sealant was certified for explosion safety in our product. It had the required long term test certifications. Something that you cannot replace without informing the certification agency. And BTW it was working as expected, after you trained the new employee that was applying the wrong amount. We would absolutely need to (legally required) recall every single product shipped with that sealant.Not knowing that something might be selected for reasons. Not even checking what were the requirements for a part. Not understanding that you cannot just start changing things. Even after we have recurring training that explains: "Don't change things in the product, people might die".

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2025, 02:34:11 pm
content: I remembered trying to find a laptop battery around 20 years ago. I think it was for a Toshiba Portege 7020CT and the people over the phone, a battery trader I think seemed so clueless. I ask what causes wear in these battery and what can I do to to make the next one wear out less. The response I got back was "The battery thinks I am not a battery anymore" he repeated to which infuriated me. I use to get told all mythical garbage like that about things which sometimes use to lead into a heated debate where they think they know the answer but coudn't seem provide a meaningful explanation. Sometimes "Oh I am not technically minded..." I said you don't need to be "technically minded" or "have so and so mindset" to learn and find out about things and am talking about even the basics.Quote from: tszaboo on February 18, 2025, 09:17:54 pmIn my village I remembered being told that many, even the 16+ school leavers don't even know things like basic maths, algebra, geometry is and apparently they were never taught it that even I learned 20 to 30 years ago back at my old address despite how awful things were. I wonder what's the point going of them going school if they don't have a chance to even be shown it to learn it. The barman at this local pub told me after their school years there they were sent to work in carrot and potato factories washing and handling them forever if they stayed there and if you are lucky stacking shelves at Tesco's and according to some of the villagers which made me feel a bit sick hearing that.It was my mission to see if I can education that barman with the things he says he's not interested in as one day he might need them and it seems he is learning stuff slow that'd be nearly impossible years before where he wouldn't listen. Basic stuff WIFI/radios like the access points, switches and the vlans there that I setup in the building last year. All the basic things, power supplies: voltages, current, how some are designed and operate different to others. He use to choose the wrong power supply for the disco equipment and wonder why it didn't work many years ago but now he observes the voltages the ampage when they get muddled up in the back where he'd find some spares I left behind.