Solar Roadways - Germany edition... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Heiko Wagner
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 14, 2018, 03:50:06 pm
content: here we go again.Now in Germany a first solar pathway was deployed...http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/erftstadt-bei-koeln-deutschlands-erster-solar-radweg-oeffnet-a-1237681.htmlrough data:200m², estimated output-power ~16k kW/h per year...and they want to deice them, when covered with ice... and that with a positive outcome.EDIT:another source with video...https://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/videos/wirtschaft/Erster-Solarweg-Deutschlands-geht-ans-Netz-article20718090.html

author: electrodacus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2018, 08:47:32 pm
content: Did they mentioned a price of just 250 euro /m^2 Curios what will that include as it seems fairly low.Drop ins solar PV cell price is so high that they are almost free now still that will not happen with glass and for roads that is way thinker than regular 3mm PV panel glass.Currency you can buy a m^2 of traditional PV panels with under $100 and very little of that represents the PV cell cost maybe less than 20%.De-ice by heating the pathway makes no sense as way to much energy will be needed and can make things even worse.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 04:36:25 pm
content: The Chinese did the same thing not too long ago;. YouTube video posted. It took the Chinese a week to figur out how to drive the solar roadway. It’s a demonstration of how the Chinese have a technological superiority over the rest of the wold when it cones to solar roadways. The Germans must still be amazed at how the Chinese government could get the de-icing to work when Germans engineers couldn’t. Guess they haven’t watched the video by this British guy. (4:04) The Chineese secret is called a broom.https://youtu.be/dkeu07U3060

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 04:54:50 pm
content: Yeah melting snow is not a good purpose of a solar roadway. You can probably tell the real solar roadways apart from the pipe-dream ones if people start to mention melting snow. The latter probably missed a few basic physics classes.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 05:21:58 pm
content: I'm not sure this is going to help Germany stop mining and burning large amounts of lignite.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 03:11:03 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 16, 2018, 05:21:58 pmThey have to.... The dummies are shuttering their nuclear power plants.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 01:12:11 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on November 18, 2018, 03:11:03 amAnd on top of that the Germans will need to supply extra electricity to the Netherlands as well if we shut our coal power plants down.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 05:28:03 pm
content: France and nuclear to the rescue. Isn’t 80% of the electricty France produces comes from nucler? And when Germany has no sun or wind it’s France’s nucler produced electricty that keep the German machinery running and the Germans warm? And isn’t it France that’s building next generation nuclear, ITER? Isn’t this a case of German research being built in France? Or we want the electricty but if something goes wrong it will be your country, not ours threat will be radioactive.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 05:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on November 18, 2018, 05:28:03 pmFrance produces around 72% of the electricity from nuclear power plants. But it isn't like that France can suddenly supply Germany with electricity. The grid connections don't have such a capacity. The electricity grid is built to bring locally produced electricity to local loads with some extra capacity to switch between power plants to have some form of redundancy. You have to understand that a piece of grid which isn't running at near full capacity isn't earning the money invested in it.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 05:53:45 pm
content: Isn’t much of Western Europe on one or a couple of interconnected grids. I know the Western United States, California, Oregon, Nevada, Washington, Arizona and New Mexico is all on one grid. PG&E built it’s coal fired power plants in New Mexico so California would get any of the pollution.It was my understanding when Germany electrical needs exceed what they can produce it comes from France, specifically from their nuclear power plants.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 06:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on November 18, 2018, 05:28:03 pmSorry, you are ill-informed here.Germany is actuallyexportingelectricty into France.https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/activities/column/20180302.htmlITER is an international collaboration, with the reactor happening to be built in France. 35 nations are participating, including (believe it or not) the United States.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 06:55:40 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 18, 2018, 06:31:29 pmAppears I a the victim of the “Merchants of Doubt” who are pedaling FAKE NEWS. This article explains the false assumptions that were being made. Thank you for correcting me.https://energytransition.org/2015/06/is-germany-reliant-on-foreign-nuclear-power/Help me out here..... So if Germany is decommissioning nuclear and coal, what are they replacing it with? With wind and solar being unreliable where are they going to get their electricty when there is no wind or sun?Help me understand this too... If Germany is relying so much on solar how is it they are overproducing electricty in the winter and underproducing in the summer? Seems counter intuitive.Thank you agin for correcting me.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 07:14:52 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on November 18, 2018, 06:55:40 pmPower is still generated from a mix of sources, incuding nuclear and (probably too much) coal and gas. This site has a good set of diagrams:https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-chartsQuoteHmm, I have not seen it broken down by season and source. But Germany has deployed significantly more wind than solar power generation, which probably favors autumn and potentially winter. Page 8 of this PDF has a breakdown of 2017 capacity including the split of renewable sources:https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/Stromerzeugung_2017_e.pdf

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 07:22:42 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on November 18, 2018, 06:55:40 pmThe Germans are still in denial. In the Netherlands some politicians are openly saying we need nuclear power. Germany will be in the same position soon when they realise solar and wind aren't going to cut it. New nuclear power plants will need to be built anyway to replace the old and outdated ones. Currently there are too many nuclear power plants way past their expiration date but their generating capacity can't missed.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 07:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 18, 2018, 07:22:42 pmIn the Untiled States the anti-miuclear generation is dying off. People here are slowly realizing nuclear isn’t as evil as the poorly educatived evviormentealists made it out to be. Coal has proven to be far worse and has killed thousands of times more people than nuclear has. Crud thanks to the burning of coal there is so much mercury in the ocean we are told to limit the amount of fish we eat. Wind/solar will never meet the world’s energy demands and we already know the burning of coal/fossil fuels have proven to be horrible. Not saying that nuclear is perfect, but it’s certainly not as bad.Let’s hop the German’s come to realize nuclear wiht the technology we have is really our only solution.And s if energy isn’t our only problem, we now need to add water to the list? Where are we going to get clean water? It’s going to require electricty.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 08:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 18, 2018, 07:22:42 pmIt's not mere denial. I think the relationship between Germany and nuclear energy is a very complex one that's only marginally rooted in environmental considerations.Understanding the issues at hand for the past decades is not very difficult though.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 11:03:45 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 18, 2018, 08:13:52 pmFrom what I know about Germany is they are into nature and the environment. I beleive that started with Ernst Heckel. What I donb’t get is why they are anti-nuclear? Of course I don’t understand why so many Germans smoke either when the tobacco in ciragettes is fertilized with radioactive polonium. (But that’s another story).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 01:35:02 am
content: There is a short summary of the question there:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_GermanyIt's incomplete IMO but gives you the general idea, with additional links to look into.

author: dekra54
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 04:05:16 am
content: Quote from: electrodacus on November 14, 2018, 08:47:32 pmThe mentioned price of 250€/m² is a price Point they are targeting in future. Currently it is way more expensive (as stated in the article).For me as an PV-Installer/Technician the targeted price of 250€ seems reasonable if they can get it to at least mid volume production.We as a company can get Panels for rooftops for around 20-25€ct per Watt or about 85€ for a 275W Panel. But this is just from a pricepoint perspective .... No matter if the whole concept is

author: analogo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 07:28:27 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on November 18, 2018, 06:55:40 pmThe truth is that Germany is, indeed, replacing nuclear and coal with solar and wind. In addition they are actively trying to reduce power consumption at all levels, at the domestic and the business level. And they are succeeding in achieving constant positive economic growth with zero or negative power growth.Here is a year-by-year graph of power consumption and power sources:https://energy-charts.de/energy.htm?source=all-sources&period=annual&year=all(have a look at how nicely the nuclear red bar is shrinking while the yellow line replaces it).With massive investments in production and research you can do it. Germany started doing research and deployment in the 80s! They have 40 years of experience in power solar deployment (see the long-time research project started in Aachen in the 80s), that makes a huge difference.Nuclear, old and new, is just much more expensive than sun and wind, if you take into account the security costs and the decommissioning funds. This is why nowadays solar and wind power is sold at cheaper rates for most of the year. It's the money baby.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 08:34:14 am
content: QuoteNope. I'll help correct your statement :"In the Untiled States the nuclear generation is dying off."Nuke plants are finally slowly closing due to the too high cost.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 09:47:33 am
content: Quote from: analogo on November 20, 2018, 07:28:27 amBut at some point a buffer will need to be added to solar and wind when they don't produce (enough). Currently the buffers are the fossil fuel powered plants.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 10:04:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 20, 2018, 09:47:33 amAgree. I don't think we have quite figured that part out yet in Germany.There is a widespread view that we are relying on coal and gas too much as a buffer/stop-gap at the moment. On the other hand we still do not have a solution for safe long-term storage of radioactive waste, or an affordable way to dismantle nuclear power plants when they reach the end of their useful life.So what to do, if you are not Norway and hence lack a steady supply of hydro-power, or the opportunity to pump water up into artificial high-altitude reservoirs?

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 07:00:57 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on November 16, 2018, 04:36:25 pmBrooms don't work on ice.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 07:02:29 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 20, 2018, 07:00:57 pmHave you never watched curling?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2018, 07:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 20, 2018, 07:00:57 pmDid you look at the video I posted with the Chinese sweeping the roadway. May not work for you.... But the Chineese were clever enough to do it. Next time try using a Chineese broom.

author: S13
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2019, 12:51:48 pm
content: Can i add that the Netherlands is doing the same *stupid* thing with solar roadways:https://www.solaroad.nl/press/I think we need another debunking from Dave, otherwise this will get out of hand...!

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2019, 01:52:21 pm
content: Just goes to show how far all this green washed Bullshit has gone. They know damn well it does not work and is counter economic but still to appease the green zealot cult they piss money up the road to appease them and keep up appearances.Whole save the planet shit ought to be outlawed to stop the huge damage it's doing.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2019, 04:07:54 pm
content: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Renewable_energy_statisticsEU target is 20% of renewable energy by 2020 (that is, tomorrow). Long term goals, short term deadlines. What could go wrong? No surprise every country in the EU will end up with solar roadways. Until the next trend.It's mainly politics. All that matters is to take action, so they all just do that.

author: S13
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2019, 07:08:06 pm
content: Looking at that chart its obvious why the Netherlands is getting desperate!At least Germany is doing a bit better...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2019, 07:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: S13 on March 12, 2019, 12:51:48 pmLet's first see how the financials work out. For starters there is a vast amount of roads which aren't used often so these are the ideal space to combine with solar panels.

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2019, 09:06:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 12, 2019, 07:57:40 pmThere is no need to see how they work out!They have already been tested in a number of places and they do not produce enough power to justify themselves. Thats the whole point, they have been tried and tested and were a miserable failure and always will be for the causes they have already established.I read about trials somewhere 3 years ago and they worked out from that they would never be viable anywhere and why. I forget all the reasons now but it wasn't like They might be viable somewhere, they failed by such a margin it was apparent the issues would take 50 years of improvement in the efficiency and other things to even come close to being viable in that application.As said, it's doing something for the sake of being seen to be doing something no matter how useless or the fact it's pissing money up the wall. Another example of green washing bullshit and why it's a fraud and insult to a persons intelligence.Why in fk would you even think about using roads to use with PV generation with all the associated problems when there are endless roofs on homes and buildings that would be such a better proposition?Probably because they KNOW this is useless and will do nothing where as if they had some sort of subsidy for people to put them on their own roofs and make power it would lower the revenue paid to the power co's and the gubberment taxes. The last thing they want is to reduce revenues, taxes and make people less dependent!The sooner people open their eyes to this garbage and wake up to the fact this whole thing is nothing but a money spinner making Climate change Barons like Gore and co and the companies that throw in with him making billions of bucks and that's ALL it's about, the sooner the resources of the world will stop being squandered on a useless lie.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2019, 11:51:05 am
content: You folks are so negative and are letting good science get in the way of politicians spending tax payer Monet on something that might work one day. We just need to get Elizebth Holmes to convince you it’s going to work.No sense wasting all of that tax payer money on a technology we know that works like nuclear, right? Or next gen nuclear like ITER or NIF, right?

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2019, 10:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on March 13, 2019, 11:51:05 amMaybe they don't want to take the risk of wiping out thousands or leaving half of Europe laid uninhabitable or want to create yet more Toxic waste the whole time they are lying saying the process is " Clean".They could stick to the tech they are using, solar, On rooftops that are already there.In reality, I think both of these options fail for one reason which is exactly as you said..... They know it works.I think what they are really looking for is something new and different and headline attracting and makes the sheeple and the greenwashed think there is some new exciting break through being done. I don't think for a minute it's any different to the rest of the Green Crock of shit, it's not about results, it's about keeping the sheeple distracted and being able to divert money into things where there are kickbacks and fortunes to be made on ideas that have no practical merit.I probably should invent something like a generator for shithouses . Get one of those tiny water Dynamos and put it in the cistern water feed and rig it to a battery and an LED so you didn't have to turn the light on at night when you had to visit. I could calculate the number of shithouses in the world, assume they all had 500W lightbulb in them, people visited an average of 17 times a night for an hour each time and come up with some fantastic number as to how much power this initiative could save over a year.Forget it would cost $3000 plus installation by a licensed sparky, it could save the world!Maybe a throne that took the expelled methane and ran a small engine when enough had been gathered to charge a battery to power a light..... for 17 seconds a week. Reducing CO2 and what gubbermint wouldn't pay for that and a chance for the pollies to get their mugshot on some feel good greenwashed site.Now THOSE are the sort of ideas they are looking for. And make sure one prices them to kill so the gubbermints can say " We have spent XX million on renewable energy/ co2 reduction initiatives" without having to go to too much effort to find things to spend it on and to the paperwork to organise cheques.The fact they may have got the cash and set fire to it and got more benefit if they put a billy over it and boiled water for a cup of tea that cost a million bux is irrelevant.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2019, 01:51:26 am
content: What ever happened to the Aussie Joe Cell? The guy who in his backyard discovered some BS orgone magnetic resonance HHO generator to run cars on water. I think that was 20 or 30 years ago. I would think everyone in Australia would have one in there car buy now and Australia has a water shortage. Or was Joe killed buy the oil industry and the plans were stolen and destroyed. Those evil oil people. Or is Joe moved on and now selling solar roadways?

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2019, 08:51:54 am
content: Oh Dear lord! ( or any other daiety you choose to worship) Now you have done it!Next thing you kinow there will someone trying to ram that down our necks.OK, I'll admit, at one stage I did wonder about that. Mate and I came across this guy at a swap meet one time with a Hohoho generator he was showin. Wasn't trying to sell it, wasn't trying to convince anyone, just there showing how it worked and answering questions.Clearly a smart young man, worked at a uni, Clean cut, reserved... got us totally wondering if there was something to this.... not that it made any sense but anyway.So I went home and built one and Hooked it up to a small Diesel engine and set up a fixed and accurately measurable load and the same with fuel consumption. Had the engine Driving an alternator which supplied power to the gas machine. Mate is an engineer / scientist that works in aerospace so he made sure everthing was repeatable and measurable... and borrowed some stuff from work to make sure it was!We ran back to back tests with the HoHOho and without the Hohoho. 3 times each way alternating. No discernible difference what so ever.Then we cheated and ran the machine off a couple battery so it didn't put any load on the engine and the thing was fizzing up pumping out the gas. Then we sawWe ran the setup 3 times and there appeared to be a TINY improvement but we were talking maybe 1ml of fuel over 5 minutes operation. Still statistically within margin of error. As mate said, drop in air temp could do that as could Humidity change etc.We had been talking about doing the test on a forum and showed pics of the setup and posted the results.yeah well.....We hadn't built the generator right even though mate built it precisely to the specs everyone agreed on before hand.The engine was too small. The engine was too big for that cell, the voltage was .003762 of a volt off, The Alternator output wasn't smoothed enough, the phase of the moon was wrong, the engine wasn't aligned to the planet zorg when we started, we should have waited for the Salmon run In Norway and so it went.Could not be accepted it didn't work, we just HAD to have done something wrong.....Pigs arse.I was later in contact with the guy we originally spoke to and was mentioning to him what I had read about Hydrogen and in fact he was carrying a Bomb in the boot of his car. He agreed I was correct but had done away with the thing anyway. He had been keeping a log and then when he showed someone, they pointed out he had made a mistake in the conversion and in fact he too was seeing no benefit as he thought.Nothing has changed now. If it don't work you did something wrong. That simple. Mean while Billy Bob from buggery gets an Old tin can, some fencing wire, hooks the wire to an old radio battery that's 30 years old, pisses in the can and when he reports he got 196 MPG towing a broken down semi up a mountain at 75 Mph in his Stock '54 Pickup, everyone congratulates him on a job well done and says it proves the idea works even though he admits he left the can of piss and wires at home on the workbench and forgot to put in in the car!The gullibility of people and their desperation to believe in miracles and to clutch onto pathetic and illogical hope never fails to amaze me.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2019, 11:16:11 am
content: Nice story. What happed to the guy? Is he still around? Is he still promoting his HoHo-haha generator? What was he motovation for all of this? Sounds like it wasn’t money.

author: analogo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 09:07:28 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 12, 2019, 04:07:54 pmWell, the 20by20 target in the EU hat been set in legislation in 2010. In the past 9 years the EU went from about 10% renewable to about 19% in 2019.In other words, EU basically doubled its share of renewable in ten years. Not bad at all. I does not seem "just politics" to me, concrete actions have been taken. As all things in life, most have been right actions, some have been wrong actions, but overall the result is definitely positive and the numbers show that.My only regret is that they have set the target too low. Let's wait for 40by40. I hope they'll change it to 60by40.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 09:40:16 pm
content: The fact is that the changeover to renewables has to be cost neutral for the end user. This will continue to go slow and probably slower than the environmentalists want.Governments can create incentives to create more renewables by reducing initial risks for investors and/or sponsoring scaling up production but these incentives can't become structural subsidies. I think solar roadways are worth trying to see if they can be made cost effective. IMHO they are a good alternative to roofs because every roof will need it's own inverter and every roof has a different owner which makes the logistics of large scale solar on roofs a nightmare. Not to mention the infrastructure needed to transport the electricity. You can't really scale solar on roofs up like installing tens or hundreds of kilometers of solar roadway.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 10:49:49 pm
content: This was posted in a different post, but I think it's very well done and worth sharing.https://youtu.be/N-yALPEpV4w

author: S13
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 10:57:28 pm
content: Why try to make them cost effective if there is an alternative that will always bemorecost effective? Solar farms?In Veendam they just opened a huge solar farm. That is how you do it! High efficiency, easy to maintain, no groundbreaking research required.https://earth.app.goo.gl/EjsSqyIsnt that the only thing that matters? Making the most cost effective solution? So we can make the most progress towards renewable energy?Or is it for some people all about hype, marketing and wasting tax money?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 11:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: S13 on March 15, 2019, 10:57:28 pmBut the problem with solar farms is that they, like 1st and 2nd generation bio-fuels, take precious farm land away which could otherwise be used for food production. There are already rumours about banning the use of farm land for solar arrays for this reason. I find it interesting that everytime I bring up bio-fuels someone will chime in and say 'bio-fuels take farm land away' and for solar farms this suddenly isn't a problemSolar roadways are all about dual use of space.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:09:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 15, 2019, 11:20:15 pmNO! The reason bio-fuels are a silly solution is because you think plants produce hydrocarbons. If you had taken a biology or chemistry class you would not that's incorrect. Every time I or someone provides you with amble evidence showing you where you are wrong you refuse to acknowledge you were wrong and continue to prorogate the same incorrect information over and over.Let's try teaching you again. Hopefully you will learn this time. Dude in the second video at 2:40 the math will show you just how ridiculous biofuels are.https://youtu.be/d3o_R1ASCA8https://youtu.be/E0W1ZZYIV8o

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:26:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 15, 2019, 09:40:16 pmEVerything is slower than the green zealots want because they want it all and wanted it yesterday.Forget the technology, don't worry about the cost or the consequences when the lights go out, regularly, it's the fairy tale ideal that's the important bit.QuoteWhat do you mean "see if they can be made cost effective? " They don't work as in produce worthwhile power. You don't need to build them to work that out. a Calculator from the $2 shop is all you need for that even if you don't have something to computer model the outcomes which every organization/ gubbermint that would build them would have access to.This idea of needing to actually build something to see if it will work is garbage and has been for 30+years. This is a simple, straightforward thing. it's very easy to know if " It will work" before you even leave the restaurant where you got the napkin from to scribble the idea in the first place.QuoteYour opinion really doesen't have much credability and statements like this are why.I have 4 Inverters here. whats the problem with them? If they Build micros into roads then they have done the same thing. You have to have some sort of power conversion from the DC to grid AC.Here is Oz we have the highest saturation of Rooftop PV in the world. What Logistical problems are you talking about? Putting an inverter on the wall when you wire the panels up? Some people now opt for Micro inverters which have different advantages and would have to be incorporated into roadways to make them work pretty much at all due to the intermittent but constant shading issues.QuoteHave you been drinking? Again? Is that the problem that causes you to make such ignorant and uninformed statements?Why would you need infrastructure to transport the electricity from rooftops? It's already there! Excess power is fed back into the grid so if you have too much it goes to the guy next door or a few km down the road to the shopping center, factory, school, hospital, treatment plant, block of units or whomever. There will always be loads of places that do not have near the footprint to generate anything like the power they consume. Imagine what even a small shopping center pulls in. Would take a preimeter of probably several KM around it to provide enough power to run it. A large Multi story would suck all the power the suburb could provide and then some. Of course the wider the area you go the more places you cover that would also be sucking power not generating.Down the road from me there were a number of single story factories that covered their substantial roofs in panels and also a large Pub. I thought they must be making money on the backfeed.I later saw an article in the local rag that the pub was now doing 19% of it's own power generation and the factorys were doing 21% and getting a little money on the weekends for backfeed when they were closed.If the power can come into the place it can go back out. Here everyone has a Minimum of 48 or 62A @ 240V on single phase and 40 or 60A on 3 phase. That is allocated on the wires in the street so would also be what the existing lines can feed back.Thats 11Kw min on 48, about 15 on 60A and 45+ on 3 phase. That is a lot of potential generation where it's needed.The argument is that not every house draws that so it would over power the lines but the reality is many houses are going to be flat out with the roof space and orientation to produce over 5 Kw at any given time anyway. It all evens out and still would allow a huge offset of power from FF stations which are more flexible than anything else.And as for the ramping up and down, that's already covered right now. Our grid works by generators bidding on supply price at certain times of the day WEEKS in advance. If there is a shortage the regulator advertises a notice to get in more suppliers. There is also a reserve margin built in to cover higher consumption than anticipated. It CAN and IS done right now.The ONLY required infrastructure for large scale rooftop solar is to potentially install newer transformers to replace the old ones, some of which are 50 years of age with those that can handle the 2 way power better. As far as I am aware, all these new estates get them anyway.Here the power company's say there are technical reasons why there has to be limits on backfeed which is complete and utter BS because other places do it. It's all about limiting the input to stop loosing revenue and control from people generating their own power.I will bet my arse their tune changes in the very near future when they realise that haven't got a hope in hell of keeping up with demand when they are closing all the coal stations and the backlash of the lights going out will force them to get power wherever they can. Rooftop solar will be the fastest, cheapest and lowest impact generation of all to supplement the base load stations.Of course start upping consumption with EV's and then solar is definitely going to come into play. I can see the cheap nightly off peak rates going out the window as demand on the grid now is often higher at night than it is during the day things to rooftop PV.This is probably what has the power cos worried about their loss of the offensive profits they make here.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:38:19 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on March 16, 2019, 12:09:01 amLook up Glucose and Cellulose. If plants don't produce hydrocarbons then where do fossil fuels come from?This must be one of your all time lows.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:50:39 am
content: Quotenctnico when will you learn all of the ideas you have proposed have been shown and proven not to be cost effective.Dude even Dave the guy's forms you are on made a video to show you what a stupid idea solar roadways are.Let's hope you believe Dave. He made a head slapping how stupid are solar roadways video.nctnico if you don't believe Dave, who do you believe? You still going to believe the hype by the marketing people on Indiegogo? Please show us you have some intelligence and can learn something.https://youtu.be/Mzzz5DdzyWYhttps://youtu.be/P90Y71ThfQshttps://youtu.be/rpwx-8s1M38

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:54:29 am
content: It is not about believing but seeing where solar roadways are going. I'm more interested to see what the companies investing millions into solar roadways are coming up with than a guy ranting on Youtube who is obviously not looking at the big picture.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:56:16 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 12:38:19 amJust show us the chemical reaction of how plants convert sunlight and C02 into hydrocarbons. Or trying to say fossil fuels are really biofuels?Have you over indulged on some Genever? Or smoking some Freetown Christiania cigarettes?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 01:03:22 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 12:54:29 amDude are you really that stupid? THEY DON'T WORK, Dave busted them. And not only that Dave is showing you why they will NEVER work. Your logic is as idiotic as expecting to win in a poker game when everyone is cheating except for you. Don't you get it. Dave and everyone else is showing you they are a silly idea.Jeez man, get an education.https://youtu.be/rpwx-8s1M38

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 01:09:30 am
content: The first error is that Dave is comparing a commercial off-the-shelf product with something which is in the experimental stage. Secondly he doesn't include costs to built a regular road. If the idea is outright idiotic companies with loads of smart engineers and business analysts aren't going to invest millions. I'm not going to form an opinion based on some guy ranting on Youtube.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 03:18:37 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 01:09:30 amSo you think Dave is just some guy ranting on YouTube?Do you think you are smarter or are better qualified than Dave is? Anyone else on Dave's web site think Dave is just "some guy" who doesn't know what he's talking about?Let's see if we can try and educate you again with a few videos. You do realize solar roadways in the Netherlands, isn't that where you are was a complete bust? Any idea how much of your tax payer money was wasted? How many times do you need to be told solar roadways are complete bullshit? Why are you so easily deceived by the lies about solar roadways, biofuels and hydrogen powered cars?https://youtu.be/6-ZSXB3KDF0https://youtu.be/GtkbioiQHmAhttps://youtu.be/HOZBrHqTJk4https://youtu.be/obS6TUVSZdshttps://youtu.be/RjbKYNcmFUw

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 04:48:06 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 01:09:30 amYou really try hard at being ignorant and clueless don't you? I really wonder if your comments are not a set up to get a rise out of people because it really does seem hard to imagine someone being pig headed and stubborn in the face of all the facts and evidence you have thrown at you or why you even keep coming back here and copping the flack you bring on yourself repeatedly.Just in case anyone else is stupid enough to believe the things you do I'll play along....You also have NO concept how big biz and gubbermint grants and subsidies work. It does not matter if it works or not, it just has to be something the gubbermint of the day can flag wave and say " Look what we are doing to save the world" and they will buy it with tax payer money.I would bet my arse there was an expensive presentation shown to the decision makers with all sorts of Feelgood bullshit and never was the figure of production shown or asked about. If it were, it was spin doctored to buggery like saying it's 336KW capacity which is totally and utterly irrelevant to it's OUTPUT. I have 25Kw of panels on my roof and today I'll be lucky to produce more than 10 Kw in total given the weather. The difference is on a sunny day I can produce 70Kw which is an efficiency a road will NEVER do.YOU are exactly the sort of person these things are designed to appeal to. Those that will champion the idea no matter how much fact there is or comes out that says it doesen't work. I'll bet my arse you are also a Tesla/ Elon worshipper that won't have a word said about them and swallows all their endless BS as well. Good news for you, there is about to be a whole truckload more bullshit being delivered soon.I noticed in one of the pics in the vid where they were installing a solar pathway there was a line of trees next to it that were casting shade on the path they were laying.Did you also notice in another pic of the roadway, the inverter boxes mounted along side?QuoteYet you will argue to the death that biofuels will save the world based on some marketing hype / press release from companies that are not doing squat to live up to their promises they made years ago and will ignore all facts and real data related to that yet won't believe the facts and figures from real world situations you want to champion.How predictable.If Did a YT presentation and declared biofuels will save the world and put the most flawed numbers forward you wouldn't be able to link to it fast enough and hold it out as proof of your fantasy's.I'll give it to you, must take some sort of special to be so stubbornly ignorant and close minded to anything you don't want to hear.You have qualities that could make you a very wealthy man if you directed them the right way instead of kidding yourself and trying to fool others that black is white as well.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 10:56:08 am
content: Quote from: george80 on March 16, 2019, 04:48:06 amClearly you have no idea how government subsidies work nowadays. At least in countries with a sensible government. The times that companies could get boatloads of money from governments for some stupid idea or just to keep a company going to save jobs are long gone. Bio-fuels do get subsidies in the US but these aren't free handouts. The US government requires progress and the companies involved have to come up with 60% to 70% of the money and the subsidies are only provided to do research and get to the stage of mass production. The solar roadways in France and the Netherlands: similar concept. Part subsidized but the companies involved are paying at least half themselves. If a project gets more sketchy then the subsidies get lower. The hyperloop is a good example. The Dutch government isn't going to invest a dime at this point but is willing to facilitate to find test locations and zoning / building permits.All this information is publicly available so you could have looked that up yourself.QuoteNo, because your numbers will be wrong and not supported by facts. Over here one the news items was a Belgian professor who calculated an EV would only start to save CO2 after 700000km. I didn't link to that in the other thread (now locked by Simon for some reason) because the numbers are obviously wrong.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 11:53:53 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 10:56:08 amDide the reason locked the thread is because of all of the false information you have been posting.Now you come to this thread insult the owner of this web site and host of the EV videos. Dude do you have any idea how many millions of people have viewed Dave’s to learn. Why can’t you?Early on I thought you were intelligent and had valuable information to share. In evert post you make it is either a bunch of crap or you say you don’t beleive the science or math. Dude this forum is all about science and math. If you don’t understand get educated. But it appears you have a closed mind. That’s not what science is about. Science is finding out the truth about the world we live in. And so is this forum and Dave’s web site.Stop being a troll and recognize Dave is not some guy ranting on YouTube. Dave is an excellent teacher and every one of his rants are supported with science and math. Dave is also willing to make corrections and change his mind when presented with creditable scientific evidence. Why can’t you? Until then you can’t be trusted and are nothing but a troll of the worst kind.

author: S13
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 01:04:45 pm
content: From a safety point of view im going to add another concern with solar roads and that is grip in general.As a motorcyclist i already have to avoid potholes, manhole covers, tar stripes, white stripes etc, because they get too slippery when its raining or when placed in corners.So how will these panels perform in this regard? When that tiny layer of roughness has been grinded off from previous traffic and all you are left with is a polished slippery surface!? No way am i going to ride a motorcycle over that stuff... Can they guarantee equal performance to tarmac over years of abuse? Because that is what it takes!This is not some kind of nice to have feature, this is a "must have" requirement. Unlike the stripes and manhole covers in tarmac, there is no avoiding when you are driving on a road that is made entirely from solar panels...As a car owner you might think, well its ok if my breaking distance increases a bit, wooptidooo... But as a motorcyclist you are playing with your life. And a single wheel losing grip on a piece of polished surface means you are going down.So im not saying this to bash the idea based on this fear because right now i dont know how the grip of these panels holds up over time. But as an engineer you have to admit this is a HUGE risk, one that would need to be investigated thoroughly before you would even think to implement this on a public road.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 01:38:39 pm
content: Quote from: S13 on March 16, 2019, 01:04:45 pmI agree the road surface should be reliable and offer consistent (which doesn't mean good perse but predictable) grip. Even in a car I don't want it any other way. Then again older tarmac tends to get slippery especially when wet. AFAIK the French did some very extensive wear testing on their solar roadway. Perhaps we shouldn't think of solar roadways as if they are glass solar panels with some grid stuck on top. There is more to it and from an engineering point of view it is interesting. A spin-off could be alternative ways to make road surfaces without needing tar.

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 02:44:18 pm
content: Quote from: S13 on March 16, 2019, 01:04:45 pmSomething that has struck me as well.I ride a bike but I would be just as concerned driving a car. People here seem to loose the plot in the rain. They either drive like snails causing problems or they drive like maniacs. Never to suit the conditions.Any type of surface that affords grip is going to disperse the light and lower transmission levels. Not a desirable thing with solar. From the pics I have seen, the panels appear pretty clear so I am left thinking the grip levels are very low. In any case, whatever treatment is afforded the panels, it's going to be short lived.Bitumen or concrete is by nature made of aggregate and binder with a consistent grip level no matter how worn. There is no way to coat a panel with anything that won't wear off or polish and still transmit light. Closest thing I can think of is some sort of resin. You could put bubbles in it which will wear through and roughen the surface but that would kill light transmission. Any particles, even cut Diamonds, are going to do the same. Any sort of plastic is going to wear or wear smooth, glass is ice skating.I have ridden my bike into reception joints a few times with polished floors. You basically can't turn much more than you can steer without any leaning at all and at a pace you have to have your feet down. Any faster or tighter than that and the thing goes from under you and that's on a DRY floor. Even smooth concrete floors in workshops and carparks can be a trap.Normal roads are slippery enough when wet, especially when it first rains and the oil hasn't washed off.Can you imagine what that would be like on Panels??Cars won't be able to stay in a straight line without sliding off! If you had to brake, you'd only come to a stop when you hit the rest of the pile up in front of you.A bike would be sheer Suicide!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 02:49:51 pm
content: Probably pretty much similar like concrete roads you still find in Germany. When it rains a little bit these become slippery and treacherous.

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 02:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 10:56:08 amNo such thing as a country with a sensible Gubbermint. If they were sensible they wouldn't be looking at shit like this to start with.And yes, I have an excellent Idea how they work. My wife works for one and sees how the decisions are made..... often with kickbacks and other benefits. There is ALWAYS some vested interest in these decisions even if it is legit like campaign donations.I'm a afraid you live in a utopian world..... well we know you do and we also know you just plain kid yourself so unfortunately, once again you are completely Naieve and ignorant.Quoteyou are sometimes a very funny fellow.You HAVE to be saying shit like this to be entertaining because no one in their right minds could possibly believe fairy tales like that.Gubbermints bail companies out all the time for that very reason!! You can't have your head shoved that far up your nether regions Surely!QuoteThe irony of telling someone to look up something that would show how wrong you are is beyond belief.QuoteI'd say the clear reason was he got upset because not everyone was gullible enough to drink the green Koolaide he was getting himself in a tizzy trying to sell EV's to everyone as if the future of the world depended on it. When it was clear not everyone was buying it, IE, You me and some others, he got upset.Typical of the green washed.When their yelling and stamping their feet doesn't work they get upset and take their bat and ball and go home so the game is over.

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 03:10:47 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on March 16, 2019, 11:53:53 amHa!I didn't even realise.Watched many of his vids but found this site thorough a link else where.I was wondering who that Dave was you kept refering to. Now I know!Anyway, lets not be swayed by a guy " ranting" on you tube showing creditable and verifyable figures making factual conclusions, so much smarter to believe polititians trying to get some media attention and the companies selling things they stand to make millions from. They have no vested interests but that other guy, well look at the vast fortunes he has to gain by disparaging them.He could make..... $30-50 out of his videos..... eventually.With motivations like that, pretty clear to see who has the most to gain out of these things and whom has the most reason to lie through their teeth...... and it's not the guy doing the Vids.Kinda narrows the options down some doesen't it?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 03:42:24 pm
content: Don't go around pretending anything you see on Youtube is true. For example take people ranting against vaccinating children. Ignorance is bliss... meanwhile not vaccination children causes outbreaks of diseases which have been unheard of for decades.A long time ago someone showed me a Youtube video which showed drinking glasses in a hotel room where washed in the room and not taken to the kitchen. At some point the comment of the creator of the video went like: see how the cleaning lady sprays something on the glasses from a bottle which has a label saying 'do not drink'. My first thought: ofcourse you shouldn't drink soap. What kind of idiot puts such a video together?Back to solar roadways: do you guys really think the companies investing in solar roadways didn't do the same calculations Dave did right at the start?

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 03:52:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 03:42:24 pmYes. Having lots of money doesn't make people less irrational.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 04:05:11 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 16, 2019, 03:52:04 pmIt was a rethorical question. Over the years I've been around lots of start-ups and companies going in a different direction. 9 out of 10 have a good business plan and take development step-by-step before committing large sums of money. There is nothing irrational about it; due diligence to the max. Usually the garage style companies are the ones not succeeding due to poor market investigation and not thinking ahead on how to make money from something.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 04:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: S13 on March 16, 2019, 01:04:45 pmThe. Roadsurface is glasss. They need $50M to develope it. Since it’s glass it can reflect light like a mirror and how do tiny think tires will grip when wet? (Not well)Then there’s the solar output. If I remember correctly if no cars cover the panel it will produce $7.00 of electricty per year. That’s 60s times less than roof top solar. Live where there’s snow? The solar roadway in China was and at night when no one was looking a team of sweepers come out to sweep off the snow.Have you watched Dave’s videos? It gets even worse which is why Dave created 3 video explaining why solar roadways are in his words complete bullshit.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 04:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 03:42:24 pmDude this is Dave. This is not “some guy”, it’s Dave. Dave who owns this web site and forums. Dave, the Dave in EEVblog.Why are you on Dave’s forums?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 04:33:20 pm
content: So you are going to a baker to buy meat? Dave is an electronic engineer. Not a civil, mechanical engineer or materials expert.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 04:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on March 16, 2019, 04:29:51 pmI don't think there is a requirement to worship Dave in order to qualify for posting on this forum.In my case, while I do enjoy Dave's videos, I am on this forum mainly to benefit from the collective experience of a larger group of qualified electronics professionals and hobbyists.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 05:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2019, 04:05:11 pmYour ignorance is shining bright once again. If you have been around start ups you would know most do not get funded. They 9 out of 10 might. Have a good business plan, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. You say you’ve been around a lot of startups which would also mean you have been around a lot of failures.How wrong can you be? Garage style companies not succeeding? What the hack are you talking about. It’s people working out of there garage which are some of the largest company's in the world today.You have got to be a troll. I

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 12:47:39 am
content: Ok, I've been following this discussion for the last couple of days but now it's time for:(--tactical face-palm image link that doesn't work--)Question: I'm personally going to invest €5k on a solar setup for my house, where should I put my panels to gain maximum if anyeconomical and ecological benefit, on the slightly sloped south east facing roof of my house or in my partially shaded driveway??I´m not against wasting (a little bit) of government money on experimental research for new technology.But unless we ran out of any alternative space to place solar panels (unlikely), or a breakthrough in PV developmenthappens that would increase efficiency by an order of magnitude by cooling the panels with the thermal mass of being attached to the ground (unlikely) AND overcome the issues that any road-surface needs to overcome, such as providing sufficient grip when: contaminated, wet and or frozen AND there is feasible way to maintain the road and the accompanying infrastructure.Until then solar roadways are BullShit whit a capital B and S or BS for short.edit: broken image link

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 12:52:36 am
content: Well for starters my roof is much more valuable with windows in them than with solar panels on top. It adds an extra room to the home which can be qualified as living space. Given the prices of houses in the NL the ROI of those windows is pretty good.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 01:09:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 17, 2019, 12:52:36 amOk, could that translate in:Well for starters myroofroadis much more valuable withwindowstarmacin them than with solar panels on top. It adds an extraroomease of maintenanceto thehomeroadwhich can be qualified asliving spacebeneficial. Given the prices ofhousesroadsin the NL the ROI of thosewindowstarmacis pretty good.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 01:10:28 am
content: ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 01:44:12 am
content: Quote from: The Soulman on March 17, 2019, 01:09:12 amNo, it means that the knee-jerk reaction to put solar panels on roofs is something people should think about twice.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 01:55:17 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 17, 2019, 01:44:12 amOnly if you don't understand the math. To see if roof-top or in-road solar financially makes sense is a straight forward math/financial calculation. If you install the panels yourself in the US payback is 3-5 years. If you have a professional installer do it pay back is 7-12 years. Marginally worth it.

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 06:01:06 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 17, 2019, 01:44:12 amYou have to be taking the piss. You cannot come back here time and time again talking the moronic shit you do and getting your arse handed to you over and over again if your whole agenda is not to shit stir. No one is that fking stupid or lacking in self respect.No one not trying to be an idiot or a troll could associate the term " Knee jerk reaction" the the installation of Rooftop PV.I try to be understanding, I try to look at things from other peoples POV, I really do try, but if you aren't being a moron on purpose, you are a total loss and beyond help.I know I go against the grain a lot of the time but the shit and garbage you come out with has to be made up for the sole purpose of Playing people and is not worthy of response any more.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 06:37:58 am
content: Another strike against solar roads is that basically all year long you are driving on a surface that is pretty much an iced road, with variable grip on the surface. Any shading with rain makes it slippery, and different for each wheel as well. Then consider axle loading, here the legal maximum axle loading is 11 tons for each front steering axle, and 22 tons for any other axle on a HGV. Glass that will withstand 11 tons applied to the corner without chipping or breaking, especially when this point loading is applied at high speed, is both very expensive to produce, very thick ( you need a ground toughened glass with multiple internal laminated panels to have it be tough on the outside and thick enough to distribute the load) and you need to have the support structure be incredibly rigid to handle it. Might be 5 tons of steel and concrete for a single panel to handle this, basically making your road build equivalent to building the entire road structure as a ground laid bridge. Also going to require precision assembly, as any variation between panels will cause stress points and break tiles.Compare this to a roof, existing support structure which already is rated for the extra mass, no need for any structural strength other than self support and wind/rail/snow/ice loading for the environment. Windows can easily be part of the system, as nobody has an entire roof comprised of glass window border to border, the power wiring is already there, the installation cost does not involve closing off existing streets to rip out hundreds of tons of existing roadbed to pour concrete, leave to cure for 28 days, then install a road bed back on them. Let again the efficiency of having panels that are aimed sunward to the most part, and running cooler due to being up where they can be cooled top and bottom by ambient air circulation.Solar roadway is just a way to get profit for the companies laying them, all existing road builders who have a very vested interest in getting paid to replace an existing roadway long ahead of schedules lifetime, and then getting the never ending maintenance on the thing as well. Green credentials, and a massive profit as well, the investor return is impressive in having every person in the country pay them double the money they make in a year, every month from that lucrative contract, overrides all else from them.Living in a country which is experiencing life with candles, because before we had electricity, and looking at the prospect of having to pay, per person, nearly $50k, because of poor decisions made in the last 9 years on corruption in the electricity industry, you are living in a dream world Nctnico. No ffed in tarrif here, but the local Wal mart has covered the entire shopping mall roof with solar panels, and the car park is fully shaded with solar panels to provide power, with around 32kW of inverters per corner they can put them. This they estimate is 30% of the power bill saved per store, and they are doing this to cut the expenses of the store. If it was sense to put the panels on the ground they would have done that during the store refresh, but instead they put them where they are the most cost effective and efficient instead. Instead they tarred the entire place after putting in the poles, and wash the panels to get that last bit of efficiency out of them.

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 10:34:28 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on March 17, 2019, 06:37:58 amThe more coating you put on top of the panels the less light transmission.Things falling off Vehicles and accidents could also be VERY costly to repair. Normaly there would be little to light damage maybe requiring some tar or hotmix to fill the imperfection and re smooth the road. With a damaged panel you would have to remove and replace the whole section and re wire it as well. I can't Imagine taking out a panel once it was built in with others around it being an easy job nor avoiding damaging other panels. Might have to replace 3 for every one damaged in the middle.QuoteWhen I wanted to cover my prefab 6 car garage in panels I was concerned about the weight. For the 54 panels I was looking around 1 ton of weight. I rang the company that made the shed, told them what I wanted to do and my concerns and then felt like a fool.Guy laughed and said If you want to stack the panels more than 5 high we might have to do some numbers. He reminded me what I already knew and should have remembered that the structure of the roof is not so much to hold it up but to hold it down, IE, stop it blowing away in the wind.Wind is the big one here and with one exception of a panel coming loose I think due to probably air currents ? Vorticies caused by by something against the roof, I have had no problem. Easy fix, Secured the panel better, moved the suspect Object which should not have been there in the first place and all is good.There is no reason or logic in making solar roads. When all the rooftops are full with PV and there is no other place to put them, then there are still better alternatives. I think it was here someone recently put a link to a large building that put them on the side of the building because Multistory usually have small and crowded rooftops . They still get a worthwhile return on the side of the building and no doubt installation and maintence costs are a fraction of that incurred with a road.I don't know how many places have Windows in their roofs but with the exception of skylights here which are not that popular, it's a very rare thing. In any case, as said, not like the whole roof is going to be glass.I made my skylight solar.2 panels on the roof go to power the LED lights in the darkish Kitchen. They run them early and late thanks to having 500W of panels and under 50W of lights. I can switch them on at night but during the day they are my skylight and put more light into the area early and late than what a normal syklight would anyway with the sun at extreme angles.I didn't have to cut holes in my roof, didn't have to upset the insulation, didn't make a chimney for the heat to enter or exit and can keep the aesthetic and symmetrical lines of my ceiling and Lighting.There was also the small matter of it costing about $100 Vs. $2K to have an approved skylight installed.QuoteExactly.To anyone with a half a brain or not trying to deliberately be the most idiotic moron in the world, the flaws in solar panel roads are obvious and over whelming.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 11:28:02 am
content: Quote from: george80 on March 17, 2019, 06:01:06 amYou are not thinking things through. Prices of houses are based on the area useful as a living space (and the number of rooms). In the NL that is over 2000 euro per square meter in popular areas (=the entire west part of the country). If you can turn a 15m^2 attic into a useful room by adding windows in the roof (or a dormer) you instantly earn 15*2000=30k euro. But having windows means you can't install solar panels (or only a few of them). It just goes to show that the first reaction of many who say 'put solar panels on the roof' may not be the most economic choice.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 11:51:49 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on March 17, 2019, 06:37:58 amI never said it doesn't makes sense to put solar on a roof (or over a car park). I'm just pointing out the other options (which may or may not be driven by local climate, local building styles and available space) and how these may drive the economics of a solar roadway. Don't shoot the messenger.Just look at where the (serious) solar roadway companies are located: France, Germany and the Netherlands. All countries which don't have large amounts of unused flat open space.

author: ealex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 12:16:16 pm
content: Regarding road cost: the tar surface is a small percent of it, most of the money goes in preparing the road bed:- it must be flexible enough to absorb vibration ( look at how a rail way flexes under a train )- it must be hard enough so it does not "flow" away over time- it must be able to drain water away- it must remain stable even when saturated with water- it must not form "drain channels" - where you have a preferred path that creates hidden cavities- it must spread the load on the base soil, so it keeps "floating" on it in all conditionsThe material used for the road surface is also a good compromise: it's flexible enough so it won't crack under big point loads, it's tough enough to remain where it is, it's not damaged by water, it's ~ cheap, it can be recycled if needed, it can stick to the base layers so it does not peel of, etcI can't imagine how can you solve these requirements with some rigid glass slabs- you can have the bed under them hard as well - and in that case you need to rip up the entire road and redesign it from scratch - as the vibration, deformation, etc will still have to be handled.- or you can put something like sand, that's soft, but in that case, it will eventually move around and unbalance the glass plate, end you end up with plates that shift under the wheels / an uneven surface or plates that break because they're not fully supported. You can see this happening with pavement stones that are placed on a sand bed - they eventually become unstable, as the sand slowly shifts beneath (they paved the city center with them over here - when it's dry some of them move so much that you can trip on, and when it's rainy water gathers under them and jets out when you step - and that's for foot traffic only, nothing heavier than a bike touches them)In case of an uneven surface - the edge of the first higher plate will have a lot of local forces from the wheel that has to climb on it - you can see this happening on a normal road pot-hole - the direction the hole expands once it forms.It might be a solution for light traffic areas - bike lanes, etc, if you can keep them perfectly clean, as normal "sand" is hard enough to scratch glass, you can make them non-reflective ( even tarmac + hot air layer can form an annoying mirror, i don't want to imagine what an already reflective surface can do - like high altitude fresh snow - it will burn your eyes out ) and at the same time, make them in such a way that they'll be 0 cost for at least 20-30 years after the installation, make the surface as adherent as a normal road, etc.It's not impossible from an engineering point of view, but it will be very expensive and it will make little sense as long as there will be cheaper ways to obtain energy.Regarding government funding ... they will go to anything that makes them look good, there are no engineers in the process, only "public image" and "election campaign debts" that need to be repaid somehow. It's not "their money" - they will burn it as long as it makes them look good at that moment, the tax payer will have to cover the bills.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 12:29:43 pm
content: It seems the French solar roadways are a somewhat flexible overlay which is stuck on existing road surface. They went through quite a few iterations. From page 15:https://www.colas.com/sites/default/files/publications/cst-mag3-fev16-en-web.pdfAgain not saying this is the perfect solution but it gives some insight into the actual engineering process.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 03:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 17, 2019, 12:29:43 pmnctnico why do you keep posting marketing material and call it science? nctnico do you even know how to research?No other way to put this then to say your posts are fucking unbelievable. Let me demonstrate just how deceitful and dishonest you are with your posts.You provide a link to a publication from February 2016 about solar roadway. Then you completely ignore "EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED!" which was posted on February 12, 2016.Why the fuck when Dave show everyone the that Wattway is total bullshit do not include that in your post?You've done the same think with biofuels, batteries hydrogen cars and now with solar roads.What's your reasoning for not believing Dave and the math and science in his EEVblog? He clearly shows why the solar roadway you are promoting are BUSTED. Not only did he do this in one video he did it in many just to show people like you they are a stupid idea.And not only that a solar roadway was installed close to where you live. (I'm sure you know about it.) And it was broken just after it was installed.One has to ask, what's wrong with you? Why don't you believe Dave or any of the other scientists who have also shown why it makes no sense to make solar roadways.I invite you to watch Dave's video on the technology you are promoting and tell us where Dave got it wrong.https://youtu.be/RjbKYNcmFUw

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 06:01:58 am
content: nctnico this video was made for folks like you who believe in the bull shit in news feeds and on the web.I hope you watch it and learn from it.Why Your Newsfeed SUCKS - Smarter Every Day 212https://youtu.be/MUiYglgGbos

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2019, 08:45:25 pm
content: More solar roadway bullshit

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 12:10:51 am
content: Those things wouldn't last a day on a suburban street nor an hour on a Highway.As if there isn't enough inefficiency in the things in the first place, they have to go fill them with LED's to waste the measly power they do generate?Above and beyond all else, the glare from the things would be a deal breaker. Way too dangerous and could you imagine what that would be like with headlights bouncing off it at night??I think it's time for me to get in on some of this grant money these Gubbermints and soft of heart and head morons seem hell bent in throwing away.How about the wind Generator rotary clothesline? As the wind blows it round and round the generator built in make enough to supply a whole street of power..... For every 20 entire suburbs fitted out with them..... on the most windy day recorded for the year.Couldn't be worse than this crock of ship

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 12:26:46 am
content: Quote from: george80 on March 21, 2019, 12:10:51 amSounds like kick-starter material to me.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 03:40:34 am
content: Quote from: george80 on March 21, 2019, 12:10:51 amYour letting the science get in the way of a politicians way to waste money. They already kickstarted it. They need $50M just to figure out what kind of glass to use. As I recall Dave said each solar panel will produce $7.00 of electricity per year. And I think the projected cost for each solar panel is $100K. It's a politicians dream. Each solar roadway panel will pay for itself in 14,285 years.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 08:19:29 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 17, 2019, 11:28:02 amYeah, and if you covert the entire roof into a window, you just doubled the price of your house. You can sell this in small portions and never have to work again in the next 20 years.Are we done with the fake economics?

author: george80
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 11:26:27 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 21, 2019, 08:19:29 amHahahah! Classic.I laughed at the ' Not thinking things through" bit. As if every home in the world was the same as what it is where nitwit lives.My home is 350 Sqm floor space. At $2k sqm, that makes it worth $700K. I wish! I must have got ripped off. I paid 1.5M for it just under 2 years ago. It's gone up about 10 % since then. Of course it did come with a 90 Sqm shed and 4000 SqM of land.here the suburb and the street is the determining factor for about 80% of a homes value given it is in average condition and not a dump. features and fittings of the individual property would go from there.Putting windows in the roof to add living space?I can't even stand up straight under the ridge and it gets lower from there.Even though it is fully insulated, when the sun is out it's too damn hot to be up there anyway. Great place to have another room... not!And why would anyone be concerned about a paltry $30K increase in home value... if the modification was legal which it would not be here? You could spend $3K on some plants and landscaping and make more than that!We spent almost $5K today on new appliances for the kitchen reno that's going to cost $50K. And then I want to do the bathrooms and the back verandah. Better to convert that to extra living space at 49 sm. All I have to do with that is put up 3 walls and a ceiling in it.... Or maybe turn the bit above the rafters into living space for the vertically challenged.My "knee Jerk" solar panels saved me over $3000 in power last year and I only had 4 kw worth on the house roof. Rest were on the shed. Could throw another 25 Kw worth up on the house if I needed it but that would take up window space......Spose though if you think solar roadways are a good idea who knows what other ideas and things you are likley to fall for?Also raises the irony of those that champion solar roads which are useless but are against putting panels on their own roofs where they would save them money.In any case, I'd be putting the panels up while I was living there to save on power bills and just before I was ready to sell, if I could get more for the place to any worthwhile amount, I'd move the panels I needed to and put the windows in the roof when I was ready to move on.Not thinking things through..... yeah, Right!

author: rayadientes
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 09:39:58 am
content: Awesome the future is coming

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 04:11:29 pm
content: Quote from: rayadientes on April 23, 2019, 09:39:58 amYes, including the end of the world. And the end of the world party which is on the day after the end of the world.

author: Feynman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2024, 07:21:48 pm
content: How it's going with the German solar roadway:The goal was to produce 15.000 kWh per year. After three months the roadway produced 95 kWh, but the panels broke down and therefore were covered with canvas to not cause fire (moisture was causing short circuits). Also, the roadway was closed for traffic for for safety reasons. As of 2023, the company that built the roadway is in liquidation (after refusing to repair and eventually refusing to disassemble the roadway).This is how it looks as of November 2022:And as a final punch line, have a close look at the meter they placed next to the roadway displaying the produced energy :