R&S CMU200/CRTU-RU: How to backup entire HDD? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 10:17:57 am
content: Hi,This may strike you as a stupid question, but I have not found a way, yet, despite several attempts.The CRTU-RU I have has an 80GB HDD. It has several partitions for the DOS and Windows 2000 modes, as well as, the maintenance mode (DOS) and a partition where PartionMagic seems to keep backups.I removed the HDD from the CRTU-RU and connected it via USB-SATA/PATA adapter to my PC and booted Clonezilla. With this tool I created a full backup image. So far so good. Verifying the image with Clonezilla gave an OK.Then I desconnected the HDD and rebooted with a spare HDD:First attempt: I connected a 40GB 2.5" HDD. I figured that while the original HDD was 80GB, the big Windows 2000 partition was almost completely empty and I did a defrag before cloning, that Clonezilla should be able to shrink this partition to fit the new HDD. To make it short: that did not work at all.Second attempt: I connected a 80GB 3.5" HDD, for the sake of it and to test if the 6GB Image file would be able to restore the original HDD if required. This time Clonezilla finished the job, but trying to boot from this HDD just gives me the GRUB RESTORE shell. I tried to play with it with no result.Third attempt: I tried to write the image again onto the 80GB HDD, using different options, but got exactly the same result.Because I don't want to endlessly try and clone the original 80GB HDD, to avoid CREATING a problem this way, I wonder how you guy's managed to get a 1:1 clone of the entire disk?Is there any sector to sector freeware copy tool?What are the options to clone the original 80GB HDD to a 40GB HDD, knowing that from the 80GB HDD only around 6GB are effectively being used?Thanks,Vitor

author: Kim_555
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 11:05:08 am
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 11:08:34 am
content: Thanks!Going to give it a try and will report back.Regards,Vitor

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 11:13:28 am
content: I would also use Acronis True ImageMake sure to select the checkbox for the "entire disk" !

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 11:55:22 am
content: I had the same issue with CLonezilla, seems to be a little flaky when the hardware used is nto the hardware the image is to be used on.I had success with Norton Ghost and I think another user here used a piece of software called HDD Rawcopy successfully.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 02:55:19 pm
content: dd if=/dev/ada1 of=/dev/ada2 bs=128k...is the proper way...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 03:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: Kim_555 on March 11, 2017, 11:05:08 amReally? Just.. really?

author: Velund
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 03:56:16 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 11, 2017, 03:24:58 pmI used Acronis boot CD (written by Acronis True Image Home software) to backup CMU200 hdd recently - full sector-by-sector copy worked fine, restored to another physical disk.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 03:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: Velund on March 11, 2017, 03:56:16 pmAnd did you pay for it? Because it's not free, and the password protected non-descriptive download link makes that quite clear.

author: Velund
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 04:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 11, 2017, 03:57:20 pmYes, of course (to both questions). But you can use trial version if all you need is just a one time disk copy.http://www.acronis.com/en-gb/personal/computer-backup/Scroll down until you see "download free trial".You can try to make boot CD of course, and I doubt it will expire together with installed trial copy.Oops, trial really make crippled recovery CD's (restore-only), so you have to use windows trial installation within trial period to make backups.

author: jpc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 04:52:40 pm
content: This isfree for personal use;https://www.paragon-software.com/home/br-free/and can resize on the fly when restoring an image to a different sized partition than the original as long as there is enough space for the actual data on the target partition. I've been using Paragon's tools it since Windows 95 and 98 days without a single restore failure.There's a slew of theirfree for personal usedisk management/recovery tools and file system tools for various OSs at this link;https://www.paragon-software.com/free/

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 05:00:24 pm
content: If the above listed dd command line is too confusing for you, there is always gparted:http://gparted.org/It is essentially like partition magic but free and open source.Of course, you don't even need to run gparted... You still just boot using the live CD and then type the dd line, except it is linux instead of FreeBSD so the devices will be something like /dev/sda, /dev/sdb or /dev/sdc for the 1st, 2nd or 3rd hard disks connected to the system. Be sure you don't copy your new blank drive over top of the one with the data on it!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 05:09:11 pm
content: clonezilla is junk. for weird drive layouts it doesn't work.Ghost or acronis.and in really complicated cases : Startechhttp://www.expertreviews.co.uk/storage/50822/startech-usb-to-ide-sata-standalone-hard-drive-duplicator-dock-reviewi use one of those. has never failed me.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 05:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 11, 2017, 05:09:11 pmOr, in those same cases: Any Linux distro. That's all that Startech box will be anyway, most likely.dd is 100% reliable if the drive is working.

author: Kim_555
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 09:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 11, 2017, 03:57:20 pmI found this link in Google, and I think that an ISO file (bootable media) you can create in a trial version. But here at the discretion of each, i just pointed out a simple way.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 05:31:01 pm
content: Do *NOT* use PAragon, it has in the past installed pernicious and difficult to remove spy/adware.

author: jpc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2017, 05:44:54 am
content: It never has for me and I've been using their various tools since the 90s. Just the other week I downloaded from the Paragon site (I have come across modified installers on warez sites in the past) and installed their HDM free for a mate with no issues or hidden nasties anywhere.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2017, 12:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: jpc on March 13, 2017, 05:44:54 amYou have better luck than I then but the copy I had definitely did not come from a warez or other third party site.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2017, 02:00:00 pm
content: Hi,Thanks for all the feedback so far.I did not imagine Clonezilla was that bad! I thought it was the best freeware option...Looking at all options given, I think I will give the dd a chance, but I need some help:1) I was thinking to boot from a Live DVD (i.e. Ubuntu). Anything wrong with that?2) Do I need to copy each partition manually? Or will I be copying the whole disk 1:1?3) What if the destination disk is slightly bigger (i.e. 76.3GB and source 74.9GB)?4) What if the destination disk is smaller?My intention at the end is to have a whole backup of the original 80GB 2.5" PATA HDD on a 40GB 2.5" PATA HDD. This requires to resize the Windows 2000 partition only (not all partitions).For that I want to do a 1:1 backup to a 80GB 3.5" HDD. From this HDD I want resize the Windows 2000 partition and THEN do a second clone to the smaller disk (partition wise).Is this possible?i don't want to use illegal software...Funny how little I know about HDD cloning - despite working every day with computers and supporting them, I don't remember having to do a HDD clone.Regards,Vitor

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2017, 02:14:30 pm
content: I used to have to clone disks most days to deploy operating systems, nowadays it's done with Windows Deployment services so the market for disk cloning software seems to be shrinking from where I sit, of course others may see it differently and I could well be wrong but that's the experience I have...I still have commercial licences for Acronis and Ghost, both of which are smart enough to be able to deal with larger/smaller and different geometry disks but I have now tested and verified that HDD Raw Copy works too.http://hddguru.com/software/HDD-Raw-Copy-Tool/

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2017, 03:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on March 13, 2017, 02:00:00 pmNope, any FreeBSD or Linux install or live CD (like FreeSBIE or Ubuntu Live disk) should work as long as it includes the dd utility, which is very small andshouldbe present on any useful live CD.QuoteNo, you can just copy the whole disk by specifying the whole disk device for your source and destination drives. It ispossibleto copy just single partitions at a time if you wanted to but unless you put them in the same places on the destination disk you would have to manually make a new partition table for the destination.It can be handy, though, if you're trying to back up a single partition to a file on a destination filesystem for safekeeping or to mount them from a virtual disk linked to the file, etc. instead of a whole disk, like:dd if=/dev/ada0s1 of=boot_partition.raw bs=128kdd if=/dev/ada0s2 of=system_partition.raw bs=128k(...this example uses FreeBSD's device naming...)etc... would make separate files in the current directory for these source partitions.QuoteNo problems, you will just have a some free space at the end of the disk thatcouldbe used to extend the last partition or create an additional partition or whatever.QuoteIf the source disk has a partition extending into that region you're going to need to shrink the partition first before you copy or else you will be missing the end of the partition. You can easily use a program like gparted to do that for most parition types as long as it isn't full so can be shrunk. Even Disk Administrator will work for most Windows partitions, obviously.QuoteMost certainly, and that is precisely what I would do. Make an exact copy first so you can't accidentally lose anything, then shrink the partition so it will fit on the smaller disk and copy that.I do this all the time to move people's current HDD data onto a SSD... Often a significantly smaller SSD than the source HDD.Easy, peasy....Just make sure you get the disk numbers correct before actually executing the dd command! FreeBSD's "camcontrol devlist -v" command makes this very easy. On linux, you need to cat a bunch of stat files in /dev/ to check each device or rely on your kernel messages when you boot or plug the disk(s) in on an already running system.

author: Kim_555
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2017, 09:19:53 pm
content: The easiest way, no dances with a tambourineCreating a complete archive:https://youtu.be/3dTuy-0fe1QRestore (transfer) data to a new disk:https://youtu.be/n8OevhK0y6sFree trial -http://www.acronis.com/en-us/homecomputing/thanks/acronis-true-image-2017/

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2017, 06:33:22 am
content: In place of Acronis, I'd suggest to try with Macrium Reflect free. I don't need it that often, but it did help to do some wonky disk imaging (also differential ones, but that's beyond the OP request):https://www.macrium.com/reflectfree

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2017, 03:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 11, 2017, 05:11:18 pmno it is not. the startech box uses a small microcontroller (it's a simple 8 bit processor )The startech box can clone drives with bad sectors. or weird layouts. it does not care about file systems.even 'protected' drives with tracks or sectors deliberately corrupted get copied correctly. all it does is read byte / write byte. from track0 head 0 to the end of the drive.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2017, 04:19:57 pm
content: dd does bit for bit copying and Clonezilla has worked fine for me.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2017, 04:39:40 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 14, 2017, 03:13:23 pmAn 8-bit micro handling ATA controllers? That's novel. Probably slow, too..And if you do a little research: dd and ddrescue do not care about filesystems. Yes, you're hearing me right: The Big Bad Linux Monster can do things low level and simple.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2017, 04:50:56 pm
content: Indeed... dd is an exact sector-by-sector copier unless you tell it to do otherwise. For small damaged source disks/partitions/files you can just do it all in single sector mode:dd if=<source> of=<destination> conv=sync,noerror bs=512The bs=512 should be optional since that is the default, but you might need to specify a blocksize explicitly it if, for example, the source is a CD where you would need 2048 as thatisthe actual sector size. Many newer hard disks use 4096 byte sectors, though they can "emulate" 512-byte sector accesses.Thesync,noerrorconversion types mean fill with NULLs if I can't read a spot instead of truncating the file (and youDON'T WANTit to truncate if you are copying a whole disk, obviously!!) and continue copying after an error.With large disks, though, copying the whole thing one 512-byte sector at a time is going to be incredibly slow so it is better to copy in 128k blocks (or whatever the maximum block size is for the OS you're on) first, THEN go back and fill in the spots that are missing 512-bytes at a time.This can be done manually using the iseek= and oseek= (seek / skip) options in conjunction with the count= option to put missing bits in specified places but there is theddrescuetool which does it for you automatically, reading in big chunks first then automatically going back and retrying missing bits afterwards, keeping track of where it is in case you have to abort and resume later, etc. VERY handy.ddrescuehas been included in the base FreeBSD system for years but should easily be available on pretty much any platform and is definitely the way to go if you are trying to image a failing drive.

author: Papa_O
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 01:47:14 pm
content: I know this is an old thread. I have a Rohde & Schwarz CRTU-RU with a dead hard drive. I was wondering if anyone could help with a hard drive image. Thanks

author: neilhao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 03:02:21 am
content: My Two Cents, at least for the machine I have, directly copying the hard disk is not feasible, because at least the machine I have uses a FUJITSU 40GB hard disk, Somehow it was limited to 20GB for use, and has a 2GB RAW partition inside. I noticed that the MBR will first jump to a FUJITSU special sector at offset 7C00, and then jump to 7E00, which seems to be a modified Boot Sector. I think that the existence of the FUJITSU special sector at 7C00 limits the hard disk compatibility, resulting in the direct copy to other hard disks, will not start the DOS system. I tried to install fresh DOS 6.22 on the new hard disk, and CMU200 could boot normally, so I noticed that the limitation came from the file system that comes with CMU200.I have almost forgotten all the information about DOS, after all, it was something that was invented before I was born, and my memory of assembly language and FAT file system is also fuzzy, so I gave upHowever, I think above information should be useful to some experienced users.

author: squadchannel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 03:16:21 am
content: for sector copy, DD is best. windows users,http://www.chrysocome.net/dd"partition-saving" I use all the time, it is useful.http://www.partition-saving.com/

author: neilhao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 03:48:56 am
content: For me, the existence of FUJITSU special sector made any copying method not working:) I tried Acronis, Ghost, HDD Raw Copy Tool and Macrium, but none of them worked. Then I started to dig in what was on the hard disk's key sectors, and then I found the above info. I think at least some batches of hard disks cannot be simply copied.I guess it might be feasible to install a DOS system into the new hdd first and then use the xcopy command to copy cmu200 related files into the new hdd, but I don't have a CF card at the moment, and the USB of CMU200 cannot drive an external hard drive, so I can't try it yet.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 04:25:54 am
content: Quote from: neilhao on April 13, 2025, 03:48:56 amI suspect that the capacity of the HDD may have been reduced by a HPA (Host Protected Area). You could use HDAT2 to remove the HPA, if it exists, and then clone the whole drive. You will need to restore the HPA after you are done.It could be that sector 62 is referenced by a DDO (Disk Drive Overlay) that circumvents a 32GB BIOS limitation by starting the machine with a 20GB HDD. The DDO code then removes the HPA to expose the full 40GB capacity (which the OS can now handle). One boot sector (0x7C00) will be for the 20GB BIOS drive while the second boot sector (0x7E00) will be for the 40GB OS drive. This change would be volatile.Can you dump the first 100 sectors and upload them?BTW, you can use the Tools -> Copy Sectors feature of DMDE to clone your drive to an image file or other HDD.https://dmde.com/

author: neilhao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 05:43:53 am
content: QuoteGenius, I didn't know the system limit was 32G, I saw some users use 80G hard disk, which made me more confusedI searched for information about HDAT2, it seems that we must find a computer that supports IDE interface to use it, I currently use USB to IDE Adapter. Attached is the sector.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 06:49:26 am
content: Quote from: neilhao on April 13, 2025, 05:43:53 amIt looks like I was spectacularly wrong. I must have been thinking of some other device.The explanation in your case is a lot simpler. The 16-bit IDE interface has a stuck bit. I think it's bit #8.BadCode:Offset(h) 00 02 04 06 08 0A 0C 0E00000110 6E66 816C 7468 6764 2050 6172 7468 7468 nf.lthgd Parthth00000120 6F6E 7374 6162 656C 6C64 0046 6568 6C64 onstabelld.Fehld00000130 7220 6264 696C 204C 6164 656E 2064 6572 r bdil Laden der00000140 2042 6574 7268 6562 7372 7972 7464 6D72 Betrhebsryrtdmr00000150 0042 6574 7268 6562 7372 7972 7464 6D20 .Betrhebsryrtdm00000160 6664 686C 7400 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 fdhlt...........Corrected by me (I think)Code:Offset(h) 00 02 04 06 08 0A 0C 0E00000000 6E67 816D 7469 6765 2050 6172 7469 7469 ng.mtige Partiti00000010 6F6E 7374 6162 656C 6C65 0046 6568 6C65 onstabelle.Fehle00000020 7220 6265 696D 204C 6164 656E 2064 6572 r beim Laden der00000030 2042 6574 7269 6562 7373 7973 7465 6D73 Betriebssystems00000040 0042 6574 7269 6562 7373 7973 7465 6D20 .Betriebssystem00000050 6665 686C 7400 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 fehlt...........The solution could be as simple as reseating the IDE cable.The drive may have reported a 20GB capacity for the same reason. It serves up a 512-byte ID in response to an ATA Identify Device command.This is what often happens in these cases:Bad model number due to stuck bit in IDE interface:https://www.hddoracle.com/viewtopic.php?p=262#p262

author: neilhao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 07:06:03 am
content: Thanks for your analysis, I actually plugged and unplugged the USB to IDE cable many times and got the same result every timeVery strange, the same cable working with my own image and then reading the image, everything works just fine.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 07:21:00 am
content: Well, something is definitely wrong with the IDE interface. Maybe there's a 3.3V - 5V incompatibility, or you may need to select a slower UDMA rate.DD8 is on pin #4.https://pinoutguide.com/HD/AtaInternal_pinout.shtml

author: neilhao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 07:59:31 am
content: Maybe the cable is not compatible with the Fujitsu hard drive, I'm going to buy a new cable to try:) I found something even stranger. I scanned the entire hard drive with WinHEX and found two more hidden 2G partitions, so there are actually 3 2G partitions on the hard drive, and the contents are not the same.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2025, 08:42:29 am
content: Because there is a stuck bit, the sector you think you are reading may actually be a different sector.

author: neilhao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2025, 12:31:34 am
content: Final report:I compressed the entire hard disk using pkzip on the cmu200, then transferred it to the PC using gpib, and unzipped it to the newly installed dos 6.22 ssd. The system booted normally. The problem has been solved. I did learn a lot of DOS commands, ROFLI think it is indeed a problem with the USB-IDE converter cable. I don't think it was caused by poor contact, because I tried 5 hard drives, and the usable models always read correctly, and the unusable models always read incorrectly, and the results of the incorrect data are actually exactly the same, that is, after reading/writing multiple times, the comparison data is exactly the same. This does not seem to be a random error caused by noise or poor contact, but more like incompatibility:)