Cordless power tools and predatory manufacturers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 10:46:20 am
content: I needed to drill a few holes in some garden woodwork earlier, so went hunting for a working cordless drill and a usable battery pack. Having eventually found a functional charger in the workshop, I had plenty of time for a forum search and to dig out this essay:https://hackaday.com/2017/08/07/the-trouble-with-cordless-power-tools/The predatory policies of manufacturers who sell a product at a loss but extort profit from the cost of consumables and maintenance is so regularly discussed these days that I think examples are spurious.Allowing for the gradual adoption of repairability and product-lifetime guarantees in- in particular- the EU, do any manufacturers of cordless tools etc. stand out either in a good or (spectacularly) bad way?For example, is the Hackaday writer's comment on Ryobi ("...all have the same battery. The idea presumably being that after five years you won’t simply have to replace your drill due to a dead battery, you’ll have to replace all your tools...") fair, and is there any manufacturer who has undertaken to keep their battery design stable for future products? **MarkMLl** Preferably without mandating five-sided tooling.

author: totalnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 12:31:11 pm
content: I do agree with the author's basic premise. If you only use power tools occasionally, then the corded tools are the way to go, even with the hassle of needing to work around a cord and potentially (and very likely) and extension cord. The only downside, at least for drills, is that they don't usually have clutches.I don't see where the author makes that quote about Ryobi power tools. I don't think it's a fair statement, either, and I am NO Ryobi fan boy. I do buy and use battery power tools and yes I can sympathize with the sentiment of high replacement battery costs. It'd be nice to have a single battery standard so that all power tools used the same battery so you're not locked into one manufacturer's battery system and battery costs would come way down.Here're my observations from about the mid-90's on (when I bought my first battery powered tool): The major manufacturers do tend to keep their battery designs stable for a long time. While I cannot speak specifically to the battery designs for all of the major tool manufacturers, having owned and kept an eye on DeWalt tools, they kept their Nicad/NIMH battery designs for at least 10 - 15 years and were able to vary the sizes but still keep the interface (i.e. how it mates up both power and attachment wise to the tools) the same so that the various battery voltages were compatible with each other (I know the 9.6V through 14.4V were, but I may be mistaken about the 18V batteries, they may not have been compatible with the lower voltage tools). DeWalt only seemed to change to a new design when they switched over to the 20V LiON batteries, probably having more to do with safety so that owners did not try to charge new LiON batteries in old Nicad/NIMH chargers. I did not read all of the comments on that piece, but one person did comment that Ryobi's 18V batteries have been the same "for at least 15 years" and I believe it is more like 20 + years. They kept their battery design the same even when switching from Nicad/NIMH to LiON, so you could use a new LiON pack in the first tools released for that lineup. What's more is that, with some patience, Ryobi's batteries can be bought at very reasonable prices (on a per pack basis) when they go on sale. So if you do buy into the Ryobi system, so far, they have made it fairly easy to stay with them in the long run. That's not to say that Ryobi is in the same class as DeWalt or Milwaukee or any of the other high end power tools, they are not, but they are perfectly adequate, IMHO, for most DIY'ers that use tools frequently enough to maintain battery powered tools, but are not day-in and day-out users. I have seen DeWalt and Milwaukee get more aggressive in replacement battery prices more recently (past couple of Black Friday's), but I have not noticed those deals happening quite as often as the Ryobi deals (mostly once a year around Black Friday, although perhaps around Father's Day, too). Until then, I would have said that it almost seemed like the bigger brands were more likely to be thrown out once enough of the batteries wore out that it made it more appealing to buy an entire multi-tool kit with batteries than to buy just the replacement batteries (on sale sometimes those multiple power tool kits are not much more than just buying a couple of replacement batteries when the batteries are not on sale).Where I have noticed a lack of stability in battery designs is outdoor power equipment. Even the big name brand manufacturers have not hit on a long term battery design that they will maintain for many years. The exception here, again, is with Ryobi which uses the same batteries as their power tools. But those brands known for being top outdoor power equipment brands (like Echo and Stihl, etc.) seem to change their battery designs too often, for my taste. Not to mention the "Johnny come lately's" like EGO and others which also look to have changed their battery pack designs a couple of times despite only being on the market for a few years.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 01:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: totalnoob on April 20, 2022, 12:31:11 pmComment about "lime-green power tools" in the para above a photo labelled "Ryobi TV" :-)Apart from that, thanks for the comprehensive comments.MarkMLl

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 02:00:34 pm
content: That's exactly my problem with cordless power tools, I don't use most of the stuff enough to keep the batteries alive. The only exception is the cordless drill. I've got 4 by now. Three of them are >20 years old Makitas that still use NiCd/NiMH packs and one newer more powerful Fein drill I bought last year. One of the Makitas permanently lives in the electronics lab, the other two live in the shed/wood/metall working shop. I'm still undecided where the newbie will find its home.The old Makita 12V NiMH packs are now cheaply available from China. NiMH is a mature and reasonably safe chemistry that even the Chinese can't screw up to badly. On the other hand I'm still not 100% comfortable with filling the house with LiIon, I nearly had one burn down the house some years ago.All the other tools that I maybe only use 5 times a year like router, grinder and such are and will stay corded.The battery situation is the same as printer ink and I had one inkjet printer. Never again. I will not pay those inflated prices.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 02:16:36 pm
content: For home use to an extent the problem can be mitigated by using inter-series/inter-brand battery adapters.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 02:59:21 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 20, 2022, 10:46:20 amA long time ago Ryobi made blue tools that used blue NiCad batteries. Now, as everyone knows, Ryobi makes green tools that use green lithium ion batteries. However, the blue and green tools and batteries are interchangeable. The older "blue" tools work fine with the newer lithium batteries, and there are universal chargers that can charge both NiCad and lithium ion batteries.So any suggestion of forced obsolescence by Ryobi is not justified by this example.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 03:37:17 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on April 20, 2022, 02:16:36 pmDo you have any URLs etc. for the record?MarkMLl

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 04:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on April 20, 2022, 02:59:21 pmWe just picked up a Ryobi table saw to use and help with bathroom(s) remodeling, and later for cutting Al extrusions for electronics test boxes. After usual research this seemed the best value and was local at Home Depot. First impression the packaging was very well done and thought out!! Second impression saw performs well. Now your comment about Ryobi and the battery/charger backward compatibility has completed our third impressionBest,

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 04:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 20, 2022, 03:37:17 pmThey are on Aliexpress.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 04:55:44 pm
content: i have almost all ryobi tools (like 20 different machines). zero problems. all use the same battery. i got like 20 batteries. one died cause i left it out in the rain and it got wet inside. one resistor later and it was happy again.The only complaint i have is about their lawn mowers. they are grossly underpowered . they use two hunking 40 volt packs. can't handle even 100 square meter lawn. both batteries overheat, machine constantly slows down and stalls. i spent 600 $ and got the most expensive dual blade machine. totally useless. it may work if you only want to cut 2mm at a time off the grass. i need to cut 5cm off the grass.i returned it and now i have a corded simple black and decker. works like a champ. 199$ on sale. California is outlawing gas mowers.the other tools i have are skill .(two electric drill/screwdrivers). in one the control board fried when the motor stalled.It doesn't matter what brand you buy. they all come from the same factories.https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/The only two remaining independents are Makita and Hilti. All the rest is "soup" and they change owner whenever the CEO's change underpants.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 05:23:12 pm
content: I thought this was going to be about the tools requiring an internet connection and active account topped up with funds in order for them to do any work for you.Why should there be any distinction in how we license software vs. tools? Those tools are doing work for you and you should be required to pay for that service every time.Same thing with spoons and forks, and clothes, etc...

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 06:32:01 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 20, 2022, 04:55:44 pm...And i have a Hilti reciprocating saw which is literally a copy of the Makita one,, or the other way around, just a different color.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 08:12:22 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 20, 2022, 04:55:44 pmA former colleague swore by Metabo, who I think are still independent.MarkMLl

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 09:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 20, 2022, 08:12:22 pmThere are two Metabos now, the original German tool manufacturer is now owned by KKR. The former Hitachi Koki is now Metabo HPT, also owned by KKR. I believe that they still function relatively independently for now, although I suspect KKR will want to optimize their investment. Metabo (DE) tools have a very good reputation, the Hitachi tools were also good IMO and the Metabo HPT is probably on par with Milwaukee, DeWalt or Makita. I only have one, a Hitachi compound miter saw and it is first rate. They have a really nice assortment of cordless Metabo HPT tools at Lowes and I was considering ditching all my old Makita NiMH-based tools, but when I added up how much everything would cost including the myriad of different batteries required, I decided I could do without for now.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 09:33:12 pm
content: I've just seen today a third party battery pack by a somewhat reputable chinese brand (maybe Nitecore) that was:Type C charging, had feedback LED.All these batteries are basically some 18650s (~2 dollar each) and some protection circuits in a molded case. I don't think customers should handle bare 18650s since they are super dangerous.I think you are right, probably the best chance is the EU doing something.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 10:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 20, 2022, 10:46:20 amI think most manufacturers have and do keep their battery design stable, because that is what is what ties costumersto that specific brand. Already having batteries and charger for brand A is a very good reason to again buy brand A if you need a new tool

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 11:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: evb149 on April 20, 2022, 09:17:37 pmSame owner as Ryobi. I have the ryobi oscillating tool. i can use Ridgid tool heads like the right angle drill head on the ryobi. The ryobi tool clearly states ont he package it is compatible with ridgid...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 11:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 20, 2022, 10:03:48 pmLOL. they have the packs made by a 3rd party. They may have designed the form factor to make sure it is theirs and theirs alone but the guts ? all soup...

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 11:17:53 am
content: Quote from: evb149 on April 20, 2022, 09:17:37 pmIt's curious that the more possessive a company is of its intellectual property the more it will justify that position by claiming it promotes "customer choice".QuoteOK, can anybody comment on how those actually came to be standardised? I note thathttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_batterysays that the D Cell was first produced by The National Carbon Company, but I find it very difficult to imagine that these days a company- particularly an American company- would put something like that on the market without enforcing patent rights over its outline.And I'd also suggest that standardisation of Micro-USB is very much a European thing, and together with attempts at standardising cylindrical power connectors has been resisted or flatly ignored by American companies such as Apple and HP.MarkMLl

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 11:27:48 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on April 20, 2022, 09:33:12 pmI'd comment here that untutored consumers are also likely to fall for claims that 18650 batteries can store outlandish amounts of energy (I've seen some on AliExpress which were supposedly 5800 mAh) while in practice the maximum allowed by normal LiIon chemistry is around 2800.And of course there's constant exposes by people like BigClive of consumer devices which are sold with no internal protection and what can charitably be described as "unmatched" wall-wart chargers.MarkMLl

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 11:50:45 am
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 21, 2022, 11:27:48 amThose devices should not be allowed on the European market. I think the red tape / flexibility is placed somewhat wrong in case of consumer devices in the EU, but that's another discussion.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 12:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 20, 2022, 09:31:12 pmHere in Japan, Hitachi tools are now sold under the name Hikoki, they are the exact same Hitachi tools, just with a different brand name on them. They even still have a factory in Japan too.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 01:14:43 pm
content: We have a bunch of old professional cordless drills from Panasonic, and the genuine NiMH battery packs are insanely expensive. Of course you can get cheap replacements - cheap in every sense. Just after a year or two some cells fail and you'll need a new pack. Therefore I rebuilt bad packs with quality NiMH cells in the past. With modern Li-Ion cells it doesn't make much sense to keep using NiMH cells, also economically. So the last time I replaced the NiMH cells with a few 30A 18650s, a BMS (oversize!) and a charger module. Works great so far.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 01:55:28 pm
content: I have einhell tools on the boat. Good reasonable prices. Huge range of tools take the same batteries. Batteries available from third partiesI have old 14v Makita cordless at home unbreakable. I have bought third party NIMh , still going strong now after 14 years.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 02:09:44 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 20, 2022, 10:46:20 amAuthor should be a total idiot to write something this lame. Complaining there is only a single battery form factor and you don't need to chase for a slightly different battery for each tool.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 06:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 21, 2022, 02:09:44 pmThat was hardly the point. Zhe was working on the rather cynical assumption that Ryobi will presently abandon the current battery form factor, but comments here suggest that was unduly pessimistic.I suppose that one way of looking at it is that the first generation of battery power tools- as well as current tools that are manufactured with price being the paramount concern- did not have the luxury of power monitoring and conversion electronics in the tool, cell pack and charger: packs were basically just a wad of cells with a thermal fuse. However over the last 20 years or so the capabilities of affordable electronics have increased enormously, making it easier for designers to stick to a common pack design even if the cell voltage and charging regime change significantly due to advances in chemistry.MarkMLl

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 06:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 21, 2022, 06:07:47 pmRegardless if they would abandon it or not, complaining about a single form factor is really lame. If the company tends to use multiple incompatible types of battery, chance that some of them will be abandoned is much higher. Not to say if there is only one type used for everything, it's much easier to get a 3rd party replacement rather than some obscure battery used only in a particular tool.My impression of that article - uninformed rant with arguments pulled out out of one's ass.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 07:01:12 pm
content: Ryobi does in fact have different battery form factors for different use cases, but this is not a case of abandoning one for another. Rather, it is for flexibility.There is a "little" 6 V form factor for tiny tools, a medium 18 V form factor for the majority of power tools, and I think a "big" 40 V form factor for things like leaf blowers.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 07:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 21, 2022, 06:07:47 pmMore like outright ignorant. They've made a point of maintaining battery compatibility for decades. It's one of their selling points.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 08:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 21, 2022, 07:06:02 pmRight. Well I did start off by asking for opinions and advice, so is the rest of the community happy with that endorsement of Ryobi?MarkMLl

author: totalnoob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 10:39:34 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 21, 2022, 08:22:12 pmIt depends. If you use your tools professionally or heavy hobbiest use, then I would recommend one of the name brands. I own several tools and batteries from the old Sears Craftsman C3 19.2V line which are re-badged Ryobi One Battery line tools (BUT their batteries and tools are not cross compatible, the stub that goes into the tool and the electrical connections are different, but they are essentially the same tools and batteries as the Ryobi). They will do the job, the drills are powerful enough for most of my needs, I mainly use and literally abuse the recip saw for pruning duties and it has held up quite well, happy with the performance of the trimsaw I used it pretty heavily when I built several projects where I needed to cut sheets of plywood and building my workshop, but I was disappointed with the 7-1/4" circular saw, just a bit underpowered and will drain a battery quickly. So based on my experience, I would say that Ryobi's power tools are good for DIY'ers up to heavy DIY'ers.Of course, it should be said, that just because Ryobi has kept their battery design the same for the last 20 or so years, does not mean that they will not change it in the next few years. Of course, I would anticipate they would make an adapter for older tools to use whatever new batteries they come out with, but that's not a guarantee, either. My defense of Ryobi was only to point out that the author was off base when stating that they could not use new batteries with old tools, which was wrong, unless the author had not bought Ryobi tools since they introduced the One Battery lineup, which must have been a very long time ago.Edit to add: I have two of the C3 drills, one normal 1/2" and one 1/2" hammerdrill. If you are looking for tools to use for home maintenance duties, I highly recommend getting a hammerdrill in lieu of a normal drill, I never thought a cordless hammerdrill would be useful, it has been used much more than I thought and works much better than I thought. If this will strictly be used for screwing together woodworking type projects or drilling electronics enclosures, etc. types of projects, then a normal drill will suffice.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 11:00:58 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 21, 2022, 08:22:12 pmI wouldn't say I endorse them - my experience has been that they're mediocre tools to fit a budget. But to suggest they're planning to pull the rug out by changing battery design when they've made an overt point of not doing precisely that while everyone else does is daft.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2022, 01:10:53 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 21, 2022, 11:00:58 pmright now Bosch is running ads that their 18V batteries is compatible back to 2007

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2022, 01:32:22 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 22, 2022, 01:10:53 amAfter they decided to break compatibility with their last generation of tools. And throw away the 24V line. The Ryobi difference is that they did not discard previous NiCd and NiMH tools when they switched to Li-ion packs.Still, that's not a terrible record.

author: dinth
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2022, 01:50:49 pm
content: Im an amateur DIY, but a while ago i have invested in wireless tools from Makita and i dont regret it at all. The tools are great, including some gardening tools like grass trimmers and lawn mowers, i can use them outside regardless of the weather, same batteries for every tool. Before that i've been always using cheap, usually wired tools but there was always some hassle, cheap drills breaking between every single job, etc. At the end of the day i believe i not only saved a lot of hassle and effort by going wireless reputable brand, but also money constantly replacing my drills because a clutch or motor broke.I only managed to break one Makita drill ever since, but before it broke i used it to drill a 30cm wide hole in a double brick wall.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2022, 10:28:18 am
content: I have owned cordless tools for more than 25 years. The complaints about batteries were valid for the NiCd and NiMH batteries. But since the switch to lithium chemistry's more than a decade ago I have not had a single battery failure. My first lithium batteries are still chugging along, and more recent ones have enough capacity to make high power tools like circular saws practical.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2022, 02:55:09 pm
content: It's true that manufacturer branded batteries are overpriced, but generic replacements are available at much lower prices, often with much more capacity than the ones sold by the manufacturer. Check ebay.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2022, 04:37:26 pm
content: Be careful with cheap replacements! In most cases they come with cheap cells.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2022, 05:46:05 pm
content: Quote from: TERRA Operative on April 21, 2022, 12:27:45 pmThey have those here too, until somebody told me I assumed Hikoki was one of those Chinese knockoff brands meant to sound Japanese.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2022, 05:47:21 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 11, 2022, 04:37:26 pmThree years ago I bought two 8Ah batteries for 1/3rd the price of the 3Ah batteries sold by Dewalt. They continue to work fine and obviously hold a charge much longer than the originals. If a cell fails, I can buy replacement (cells) for 1/5th the price of new 3Ah battery packs from Dewalt. That's my actual experience, not just a 'wise' observation. What's your experience?I don't see it as predatory that tool companies sell tools at cost and make money on batteries. When Kodak sold cameras at cost and made money on film, people called them genius. When shaver companies sold handles for safety blades below cost but made money on blades, people saw it as SOP.If tool companies want to sell me a stable of cordless tools at cost, I'll take it, then buy generic batteries that are so cheap they're nearly disposable. Anyone that doesn't feel good about those batteries can buy manufacturer branded. That's what free market capitalism is all about. Now, I'm only guessing, but I'll make the bet that the people that worry about the brand of battery are more often home owners that use their power drill twice a year to put up curtain rods. Meanwhile, the people using the things all day, every day are happy using cheap generic batteries that hold two or three times the charge of the ones that came with the tools.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2022, 07:18:28 pm
content: In my family tools are heavily used, DIY up to professional. In most cases cheap replacement battery packs didn't last long or couldn't provide sufficient current. Packs with a reasonable price/performance ratio using high quality cells are usually fine. Same for laptop battery packs.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 07:52:27 am
content: Quote from: eugene on May 11, 2022, 05:47:21 pmPolaroid would have been a far better example, but by and large camera and razor manufacturers didn't lock out competitors using DRM and DMCA-style litigation.There always has been a progression: somebody works out how to do something and patents it, competitors patent their own improvements, patents expire and the technology becomes generic.Having a situation where a manufacturer can lock out competition indefinitely is a new phenomenon, brought about by semiconductors cheap enough to be embedded in media and accessories. And of course one of the first applications for that sort of thing was battery packs.I think the consensus of this thread is that by and large "compatible" batteries are OK. However there are definitely rogue battery (and cell) manufacturers who claim capacities which are quite frankly impossible using current technology, which leads me to suspect that as well as being economical with the truth they might also be economical with their protection circuitry.MarkMLl

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 12:52:47 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on April 21, 2022, 11:50:45 amThe EU simply needs a "Trading Standards" web site, where consumers can report abuses. Also the "Trading Standards" office could scan the major online vendors (eBay, Amazon) and request take-downs of BS products. After a while, standards would improve... and prices would go up!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 01:10:20 pm
content: I strongly prefer corded power tools (and gasoline garden tools) for all the reasons already discussed - these things will work for decades if you take care of them a little bit. There's not much you can do to make a Lithium Ion battery last long, other than not charging or discharging them fully... which is inconvenient as the chargers and tools are not designed for this.I have a pile of old Ryobi 9.6V drills - four or five of them, sourced from various eBay bargains, used and new. The reason is so I can have multiple tools on the go at the same time... two or three different drill sizes, a screwdriver bit, a countersinking bit, etc. - without having to keep changing them... just grab a different drill. I also use them when working on my car, to unscrew nuts and bolts - I can have several different socket sizes on the go at the same time. (No, the drills are not strong enough to undo or tighten large bolts and nuts. You do that part by hand. But they are great for (un)screwing nuts and bolts once loosened, including wheel nuts.)Batteries... - These used NiCd battery packs originally, I have rebuilt the packs with upgraded NiMh cells several times. The cells usually cost more than I paid for the drills... I haven't figured out a way to make them last. If you don't use them, they eventually self discharge and go bad.Probably to make tool batteries last would require a battery maintainer that kept them at e.g. 40% charge and exercised the batteries every so often (every few months). That's actually a product idea that might be quite successful, given the price of batteries! It would need "bays" for e.g. 4 or 6 batteries...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 01:21:27 pm
content: Yep, NiCd/NiMH cells should be kept fully charged when not used regularly (recharge every few months). And for Li-Ion the optimal charge for long term storage is about 50%.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 04:42:41 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 12, 2022, 01:21:27 pmI have an older hybrid car, with a NiMH battery. With a data logger connected long term, I noticed that the computer likes to keep the level of charge in the range 40% - 50% at all times... That strategy seems to be good for longevity, the battery is still in good shape after 16 years and 200+ K miles. The computer (battery management system) does other things to protect the battery too, like reduce current (both in and out) as the temperature either climbs or falls from around 25C.I don't know whether a Li-Ion battery would be able to remain serviceable after being in use this long, even if mollycoddled the way this battery has been? It seems to me that the Li-Ion chemistry is somewhat more fragile.Either way, that is the kind of battery management that would make power tool batteries last a lot longer... but it would mean having to recharge more often, maybe much more often, to protect the cells.Basically, a power tool battery is a compromise design, torn between the opposing forces of convenience/usability versus a long service life.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2022, 02:41:27 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 12, 2022, 01:10:20 pmI loathe cords, I gave away all of my corded power tools except for my circular saw and router years ago. A couple years ago I finally bought a Makita brushless electric cordless string trimmer which I quickly found was more powerful than the gas powered one it replaced, gave away the gas one and would never go back. Later I bought a Makita brushless leaf blower that uses the same batteries, it's more powerful and quieter than the corded one I had and I no longer have to drag a cord around on the roof. I got rid of my gas powered lawnmower too and replaced it with electric, the electric tools are so vastly superior in my mind I would never consider going back to gasoline unless *maybe* if I had a massive yard. The electric stuff is roughly on par in terms of performance, it's dramatically quieter, vibrates less and most importantly, I'm not constantly tinkering with stupid little carburetors and the messes created by ethanolized fuel.I just haven't had much trouble with the batteries. I got about 10 years out of the original packs that came with my Bosch drill and I had them rebuilt about 6 years ago and they're still going strong. My Makita lithium packs are all still going strong, and the aftermarket Bosch lithium pack on my reciprocating saw is about 5 years old and is still fine. The lawnmower was originally lead acid but when those died I added a connector so I can plug in the same LiPo packs I use in my RC airplanes, most of those I bought in 2015 and they're all still holding up fine. The only gasoline I store anymore is for my generator, I no longer have any 2 stroke stuff aside from an outboard motor and I only fill that tank when I'm going to take the little boat out.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 05:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 13, 2022, 02:41:27 amboth battery and gasoline requires a little babysitting to get good life and performance. Corded tools are very low maintenance and remain viable for decades. All three technologies have pros and cons.I love my five old Ryobi battery powered drills despite having to rebuild their battery packs every 5-8 years, because they are easy and flexible to use... i couldn't have five corded drills on the go at the same time, it would be a spaghetti mayhem! Overall, they are a time saver and do a great job. If the going gets tough... I don't rush to Home Depot to buy a bigger cordless drill - instead, I take out my ancient corded one and finish the job using the local nuclear plant as the power source - hard to beat!Gasoline engines are only unreliable if you forget to use fuel stabilizer. If you remember to do that, carburetor issues pretty much disappear. I have hmmm... OMG... seven small gas engines here... and they all start reliably, even though some of them can be left a year since the last use. The oldest one is an early 80's 5hp Briggs powered leaf blower - runs like a champ, starts on the first pull! Of course it needed new parts when I bought it, as it had been neglected like most small engines...Fuel stabilizer: I add it to the jerry can before filling it at the gas station, so I don't have to think about it any further. It is a minimal investment in time and $ for having all your stuff start reliably and consistently, no matter how long you let them sit (within reason... 1 year is fine, from experience). It literally takes only a few CC of stabilizer for a whole can. It makes all the difference...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 06:08:16 pm
content: Fuel stabilizer is good stuff, I have wondered at times why they don't just include it in the gasoline to begin with, the cost is negligible. I find that even with stabilizer the ethanolized fuel goes bad within a few months. Engines vary widely on how well they tolerate stale gas too. The early 90s Tecumseh flathead on the gas mower I had would sit all winter and start up on whatever old nasty fuel was in it, though I often had to pull the banjo bolt that holds the float bowl on and clean it out. The Honda OHV engine on my pressure washer is a much better engine in most respects but it's very picky about fuel and won't even start on stale gas without a shot of starting fluid. For drills I have been tempted a few times to get a Hole Hawg for when I need to use a big hole saw or spade bit but otherwise the cordless drills meet my needs and I don't have to drag a cord around.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 06:39:49 pm
content: @50+ posts, I don't feel like reading this whole thread. Aviation gas (100LL) and marine gas do not have ethanol. Marine gas (90+ octane) is available and cheaper locally. It is also lead free. That is what I use in all of my smaller (<6 hp) and 2-cycle engines. It may go bad with time, but not in a single year. The only small engine I use ordinary premium gas in is a 25hp Kohler twin cylinder. That is my rider mower and gets lots of use. Ethanol-containing regular gas ruined the carburetor of a name-brand, 5 HP mower in less than a year.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 06:50:34 pm
content: Marine gas is a good option for those of us that live near water. I would not use avgas except as a last resort though as it contains a large amount of lead, quite a bit more than the old leaded automotive gas IIRC.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 08:06:46 pm
content: It doesn't seem to go bad on me. - I have a little Miata MX-5, which sits all winter. She gets a little fuel stabilizer too, in the fall. Always starts at the first whiff of the key.I think one of the "secrets" is to leave the various fuel tanks nearly full, as opposed to nearly empty! - it seems that "the forces of evil" have a much tougher time destroying a full tank of fuel, as opposed to a splash of fuel at the bottom of the tank.I never drain the carbs or anything. One good thing about ethanol is that - barring extreme conditions - it will absorb water, so it never "piles up" anywhere in the system. (Obviously that requires a full-ish tank too.)

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 08:12:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 14, 2022, 06:50:34 pmHere you can get long lasting cleaner burning gasoline at the hardware store etc. it is specifically made for lawnmovers,chainsaw and such where it will might sit for long period and you'd rather avoid breathing too much nasty stuff while using it.those small cheaper is better engines are not exactly clean burning

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 08:15:10 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on May 14, 2022, 08:12:27 pmYes you can get that engineered fuel here too, if you want to pay $20/gal and that was back when pump gas was ~$3/gal, I haven't looked lately. I've used it in chainsaws before where the small quantity needed makes the price not an issue.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 08:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 14, 2022, 08:06:46 pmIt might depend on the climate, here in the PNW it is often very humid on cooler days and we get a lot of rain, the ethanol in gasoline sucks the moisture right out of the air and it settles in the bottom of the fuel tank as a mixture of water and alcohol, I have seen tanks on small equipment and motorbikes and stuff rust all the way through. I've also had multiple carburetors on small engines completely destroyed by aggressive corrosion. Modern fuel injected cars tend to start easily even on lousy stale fuel but small hand started engines are more tricky.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 10:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 14, 2022, 08:17:29 pmOK I have to confess to having a dehumidifier running in the garage, where the equipment is stored. I did it to avoid rusty tools etc., but maybe there are other benefits that I haven't considered - like keeping ethanol fuel from soaking up water?