Redesigning patented designs - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: pyrohaz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 12:48:50 am
content: Hi all,As probably none of you know, I'm a musician! I enjoy combining my electronics and music ability to make what I consider cool things. One thing I have designed is an infrared audio controller. Now there aren't really any forms of schematics on the web (other than my instructable) on designing infrared proximity sensors/rangefinders so I've completely designed the end circuit myself off first principles - amount of reflected modulated light. I would've thought that the technique is pretty common knowledge to most electronics people and therefore wouldn't imagine a patent being particularly easily granted, however! This is where my question lies:Roland have a product similar to this incorporated into many of their synthesizers. I would assume their technology is patented as they purchased it off a small time company a fair few years back according to a Wikipedia article. Since I'm not using the same design as them (for starters, theirs is 2d where as mine is 1d), where do I lie with potential patenting issues? The only similarities between my device and theirs is the use of infrared, along with controlling audio effect parameters.I didn't even go to the effort of reverse engineering the Roland solution as I figured it was pretty easy to design myself. Could anybody care to enlighten me on where I potentially stand?Thanks,

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 02:09:57 am
content: What do you intend to do with the design?in the USA patents are granted even for mundane applications of well-known technology even though they are not supposed to be done that way. Also, in the USA you can use Google Patents to search on your own. I am not sure about other countries.I don't think you can 'get around' a patent by virtue of not having looked at another design. The main point is whether your design infringes on one of their claims, not whether you came up with it independently. One thing I have noticed about patents is they sometimes have very length descriptions of lots of things in the design and in the field in general but in the end have very little in the claims section. This is a trick to make you think they have patented everything they describe while in actuality it may be just one small thing. The granted claims are the only thing that matters.A common approach is to look for prior art - meaning look for patents that have expired or else things out in the open that are in the ballpark of a couple decades ago.I am not a patent agent nor attorney but I have been around patents a bit....in the USA.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 07:17:34 am
content: Read the patent and find out what it claimsCheck when the patent expiresIf you're just doing a one off for home use, or a few for friends then the possibility of any legal action is zero.If you intend to put it into production and out into the market place then if there is a chance of you infringing the patent then pay a patent lawyer for advice.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 07:37:05 am
content: 1) find the patents and read them2) judge if you infringe on themThen you can also take a gamble that if you stay low on the commercial radar you probably never be bothered with it.A company only sues another company if it hurts their sales/profits or can gain huge profits by sueing.A small company that makes a few $ on the side: a lawsuit will cost more money than it potentially can return, a company will think twice before going that way.But if your company becomes a huge success you better start talking to some lawyers and perhaps paying license fees.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 05:40:25 pm
content: Look around you and see what other uses are made of the technology you intend to use. As I see it virtually all stereo equipment uses IR for what could be called audio control as do most TV's. IR has been around for so long most patents have probably expired.

author: tonyarkles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 06:07:41 pm
content: I'm not a lawyer, but I remember hearing at one point that patent infringement also has a weird incentive: knowingly infringing a patent can result in treble damages (willful infringement), whereas unknowingly infringing a patent does not. Thus, if you're guessing that something is patented but you're going to build it anyway, you're better off not knowing in the event that it does end up in court later.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 06:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: tonyarkles on October 02, 2014, 06:07:41 pmThis is the same advice I've seen. Do NOT search for prior art. If you do, you can get busted for willful infringement and get bigger fines. Better to just go about your business and hope for the best. If someone sues, you cross that bridge then and hopefully can work something out.The US patent system is broken, it's as simple as that. If you are a little guy there doesn't seem to be much reason to even try to play by the rules.

author: pyrohaz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 07:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: tonyarkles on October 02, 2014, 06:07:41 pmAh! I assume I'm pretty screwed by now already then...I don't actually feel that I'm infringing as I don't know the limits of the patent (talking of which:https://www.google.com/patents/US6153822). Would anybody be willing to give me some more explanation of how far the claims cover?Thanks,

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 09:09:08 pm
content: Quote from: pyrohaz on October 02, 2014, 07:22:45 pmYou are screwed, however the patent was published 28th November 2000 and is vaild for 14 years, so if you wait another 57 days you can do as you wish, providing no improvement patents have been granted that would also be breached by your work.

author: pyrohaz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 10:45:00 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on October 02, 2014, 09:09:08 pmWell thats relatively good news! Where did you find out the information on the patent length?Cheers!

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 10:51:58 pm
content: Quote from: pyrohaz on October 02, 2014, 10:45:00 pmI used google to find out the valed length of a US patent, this provided an extension to Maxwell's equations. You put in various parameters from the patent, apply an assortment of divs, grads and curls and then take the first and second derivatives to find the inflection points and types. These can be used to find the patent length expiration period which is unique to each patent. It might be worth your while repeating the calculations as vector calculus isn't one of my strengths.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 10:53:12 pm
content: There are a few low-cost time-of-flight sensors coming onto the market.e.g.http://www.st.com/web/en/press/p3397Just sayin'....

author: pyrohaz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 11:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on October 02, 2014, 10:51:58 pmHaha, the sarcasm goes by appreciated! Is the 14 year idea a legitimate estimate? I had a quick look online and seemed to find that US patents last for 20 years.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 02, 2014, 10:53:12 pmI will say, I love ST! They're brilliant, I don't have a clue how to hand solder LGA though, other than deadbug of course! Would this still infringe the patent as it does use IR and will still be controlling audio.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 04:57:38 am
content: From here, I did assume it was a design patent, but it's possible that it is a utility. I don't know enough about US patents to be certain.http://www.uspto.gov/inventors/patents.jspHow long does patent protection last?For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, utility and plant patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the grant and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees for a utility patent. There are no maintenance fees for plant patents . Design patents last 14 years from the date you are granted the patent. No maintenance fees are required for design patents.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 05:05:22 am
content: INAPL (I Am Not A Patent Lawyer), but that isn't a design patent. Design patents are for "look and feel".Glancing at the claims, Mike's idea seems to provide an alternative.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 05:22:53 am
content: The patent in question is not a design patent. Design patents only cover the appearance of a device rather than its function. Design patents are more similar to trademarks/trade dress than regular patents. For instance, the design of a car body could have a design patent while a specific feature like a spoiler that affected performance could have a utility patent.In any case, reading most patents isn't too hard. The big thing to remember is that the only thing that matters are the claims. Those are the only part that enjoys legal protection. Do not let the description lead you astray. Not everything in the description is necessarily claimed, and not everything claimed need be in the description.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 06:47:28 am
content: IAANAPL (I Am Also Not A Patent Lawyer), but seeing that they repaid their fees four times last time two years ago and each time costing significantly more, it sure smells and looks like a 20 year patent to me.That said, there is ofcourse history of musicians doing the same as claimed (An electronic musical apparatus that responds to the motion of an object in a space exterior to the electronic musical apparatus in order to control music ) before 1997.I remember a concert of JM Jarre in the late 80's with his laserharp, controlling sound by influencing multiple laserbeams, there must be some room for you to operate in, but I would not put my money in a business that solely depends on something that another company already has patented.If you can find an innovative new use or implementation for it with signifant benefits you might want to try to patent it yourself. In that case all kinds of patent lawyers are going to sift through it and if there is a conflict or it is not new enough you are going to find out soon enough.One of my patent applications that my company filed in 2000 was rejected after three years because some lawyer found a remarkable similar patent from 1976 from Hughes Aircraft corp. damn! Totally different industry, totally different naming used in the patent but in alien patent law language it was the same. Thereafter there were many other companies that did the same, slightly adjusted the application to be innovative and they got their patent. Oh well, it is a big boys league no room for amateurs unfortunately and that is why I personally don't like the current patent system. It is unequally rotten and the players which already have the most money gets the most benefit of the system.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 08:28:16 am
content: Quote from: pyrohaz link=topic=37186.msg523475#msg523475I will say, I love ST! They're brilliant, I don't have a clue how to hand solder LGA[/quote