Copying the same design a few times to get more boards inside 100 mm x 100 mm? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: badrequest400
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 02:40:19 pm
content: Can I copy the content of a PCB design like this (image attached), join it with little bridges in the board outline and get three times as many little boards as I would have otherwise, since they all fit into the 100 mm x 100 mm special offer allowance?I copied and pasted the entire thing twice so I got three of them so all those ratlines appear because EasyEDA has them all on the same net.How important are holes drilled into the bridges to make proper mousebites?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 03:17:28 pm
content: Assuming you are doing this for PcbWay/JlcPcb, then no. They will see independent designs and charge you more.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 03:35:55 pm
content: You need to connect the individual boards with a few routes to make it look like a single. You can send them via the connecting parts where you would put mouse bites.This way they will see it as a single design and you will get what you are after.I did this a while back and it worked.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 03:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 31, 2023, 03:17:28 pmbut afaict jlcpcb will panelise identical designs with v-scores for a $4 extra

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 03:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on October 31, 2023, 03:35:55 pmI think that it is a bit of hit and miss if they'll let that pass

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 03:49:51 pm
content: Yeah, it depends on individual reviewer. I've seen people having to convince that a boards with a legitimate breakout part are not two designs.In the end, it does not cost a lot, just follow the rules and be glad you are able to get the boards cheaply. If everyone tries to cheat the system, the system may just go away.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 09:06:43 pm
content: I've done this dozens of times, as long as it's a unique design they usually ignore it.Sometiems they don't, cancelling the order and placing a new one often does it.BTW the limit for the cheap offer is actually 102x102mm.I use gerber-panelizer from this:https://github.com/ThisIsNotRocketScience/GerberToolsUsage is like MS Paint.Export your gerbers into a zip file, drag over the panelizer, then insert as much as you can, finally put the mouse bites.I use "fill empty area" for best result/support/strength, I found this option to be a bit buggy, already ruined several board by overlapping the traces, so before exporting the panel click on the fill area/delete to regenerate it.Always check the output before ordering!The output can be directly uploaded to jlcpcb and others.This was another panel using it:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/$0-11-py32f002a-m0-24mhz-320kb-actually-324kb-more-peripherals/

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2023, 10:15:17 pm
content: I second the comment about additional expense, if you send it to JLCPCB. (No experience with PCBWay.) It charges a lot extra for panelization of small boards. I only needed a few, so I made single boards.

author: badrequest400
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 06:36:39 pm
content: Could I ask which services you've tried with your Gerber Panelizer boards?I produced these (attachments) which look okay in the preview that the Gerber Panelizer produces but do not look okay when viewed in an online gerber viewer or PCBWay's/JLCPCB's viewer. PCBWay's viewer has a note that says it might not show cutouts so that could be why. Elecrow's website does not generate a preview. The online gerber viewer includes some of the cutout in the expected locations but also in unexpected/opposite-from-intended locations.Has your experience been similar?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 07:19:25 pm
content: i've done almost every order from jlcpcb with multiple different design and multiple same design in one board and they never care. i dont even have to connect their gnd or whatever, just direct copy paste and done. i just dont click v-score and panelization option, just let the "1-design" option checked. i cut myself at home i let like 1mm space between design empty no copper top bottom, easier for my cutting tool. only add straight lines silkscreen to guide cutting on design corners. attached is one among of my worse...

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 08:04:05 pm
content: It may depend on whether you use an Outline layer with V-cuts. Mine had those. I suspect if I had made a single board without the V-cuts, it would have passed. Eash board was about 1 cm x 2 cm. I could have spread them apart without an Outline layer and gotten away with it, but then, I value my time at more than $1/hour.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 08:04:57 pm
content: I've tried mixing more than 2 designs, no matter what I always got a message "Your order has a $17 overcharge because we've detected 3/4/5 different designs".Maybe it was due the mousebites, making it more obvious.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 08:22:55 pm
content: Another thing to consider here with no separation/mousebites on the panel is the need to work with fiberglass dust when cutting them out. I personally would happily pay extra $15 to not have to do that.

author: Gerhard_dk4xp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 08:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on November 01, 2023, 07:19:25 pmAbsolutely the same here. I don't ask them to machine any slots, I cut the boardlets myselfon the Proxxon circular saw with a hard metal blade.Pic: 4 * LMX2594 frequency synthesizer + 2 test structures.Yes, 50 Ohms striplines on top level of their FR4 4 layer process are 11.5 mil wide, as theirimpedanc ecalculator predicts, according to the TDR.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 08:47:38 pm
content: If you do not panelize it, using multipleof the samedesign technically should not increase the cost at JLCPCB. But good luck making all of the slots for separation and hoping to pay $2 for it.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 09:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 01, 2023, 08:22:55 pmIt's not the fiberglass that bothers me,* it's the "castellated" holes. How would you expect anyone to drill a semicircle?*Fiberglass dust is just like house dust or any other "nuisance dust" (it's official designation). It is not asbestos.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 09:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on November 01, 2023, 09:13:05 pmFiberglass dust is definitely worse than ordinary household dust, and is bad for any sensitive machining equipment you have around.If you absolutely do not have the money, I understand, but if $5 is not much to you, its insane to waste your time cutting up boards. Or be smart about it, order 0.8mm PCBs and cut them with a simple guillotine/scissors.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4462426/

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2023, 10:50:50 pm
content: 1) I cut all my PCB's initially with a guillotine or shear.2) When the size is critical, as in the example I gave, I use abrasive.3) Hazard classification is relative to human health risk, not some inanimate machine.In other words, water is generally safe for humans and not good for machinery.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 03:52:52 am
content: if only for prototype, not much quantity to cut. use mask if afraid micro crystalline enter your lung. if ready for mass production and return income is confirmed, then prepare pay extra for panelization... ymmv.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 08:31:22 pm
content: A bit off topic ... but you may want to add some footprints for decoupling capacitors as close to the chip as possible. There's plenty of space around the chip, so think where most chips in that footprint would have Vin and add footprint for a 0603/0805 ceramic capacitor. The other side of the cap could go on the bottom side using a via, where you'd have ground as a copper fill. You could also have more of the traces on top layer, there's no need for some to go on the bottom side with vias.

author: badrequest400
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2023, 12:51:04 am
content: Quote from: mariush on November 02, 2023, 08:31:22 pmThanks for your suggestions. I don't know much about PCB design but I was trying to get the traces away from each other as much as possible because I read that sometimes inductance can cause signals to interfere with each other; that's why I was using the vias. I don't know how important that is for short lengths like this.I'll look up some microcontrollers in this footprint and see if I can find any patterns for Vin and GND locations to put footprints for capacitors.