TE and strategy to design novel tv antenna, open hardware, to be crowdfunded - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 09:22:46 pm
content: Hi,I'm designing a novel tv antenna and create engineering tables as an open hardware project for general use of novel design configuration, but have reached an impasse due to lack of tools and materials.I'm planning a crowdfund strategy where anything not spent on tools goes to prototype materials. Thousands of strategic combinations will be tested to identify patterns for further study, and perhaps identify a workable design within the scope of the project; in either case it's all TAPR open hardware licensed.To have the crowdfund be successful, the budget has to be flexible as possible. I'm setting the success level at $1,100 because I think I can get continue with a DMM and LCR meter; and a stretch goal high enough to justify tools for the purpose.There's a bunch of wiggle room in between. To be sure to give the best value to funders, what purchasing strategy and/or equipment would you recommend?The following tool configurations have been recommended by manufacturer sales reps as best tool for the task.KeysightFieldfox N9912A "would measure VSWR, and return loss for antennas between 2MHz and 4GHz"TektronixMDO3034 Mixed Domain OscilloscopeMDO3AFG Add 1 Ch. Arbitrary Function Gen.MDO3MSO Add 16 Digital ChannelsMDS3SA Increase Spectrum Analyzer to 3GHzTAP1500 1.5 GHz Active ProbeTEKUSB488 Communications AdapterTPP0850 800 MHz High Voltage Probe(This thread suggests the MDO3034 does not provide simultaneous monitoring of various inputs, but that seems contrary to what I've read about it.1.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-6-in-1-scope-from-tektronix/msg382370/#msg382370). comments/clarifications welcome.AnritsuS331L "for a cable and antenna analyzer with spectrum analysis"MS46121A Shockline VNA, single port "For RF passive component testing and trouble shooting, including: ..Antenna Return Loss, Bandwidth, Impedance Measurements, Cable Fault Detection and Phase and Return Loss"If you want to comment about the futility of this endeavor or learn more about it, please post in relevant forum and link to it. I'll try to respond to Qs on topic.Thank you,

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 09:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 14, 2015, 09:22:46 pmYou can get by using a RF voltage meter. Build a bunch of antenna's. point them in the direction of a known source and do comparative measurements on signal level output.can be found on ebay for 200 to 300$scopes, digital input channels , arb generators are useless for this kind of work.sorry, but this smells like 'we'll croudfund me a lab, i'll post some plans so you can build a tv antenna.. a tv antenna which is pretty much useless. analog tv is dead.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 09:38:40 pm
content: I agree. Analog TV is dead as a Dodo! Over here there has been no analog TV transmission for several years.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 10:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 14, 2015, 09:32:51 pmRight. Digital TVs have signal strength meters and autoprogram modes. It's also helpful to understand diagnostic reasons of symptoms of failed reception. That's what I've used to this point.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 10:59:23 pm
content: Even digital broadcast tv is dead?The lab will be donated to start a local hackerspace. I'm not keeping equipment for myself.The tv antenna uses 75ohm coaxial cable in a loop less than 12inches diameter and a novel wide-band balun. Testing with a tv receiver, it appears to be sensitive depending on the coaxial cable used.It doesn't require much material to build. If you have access to equipment, quantified feedback would be useful. Here's one of the designs of the open hardware project:https://github.com/tekbasse/xo-halo-ohlOther successful prototypes have been under 2inches diameter --only there seems to be an imbalance between uhf and vhf bands --The same receiver autoprograms channels with bias for most of one band or the other. I can't diagnose further without smith charts and experimental data.The design is an attempt to adapt part of a novel circuit configuration to practical, inexpensive applications as a means to test overall concept. I'm confident it works. All evidence I've collected points to the technology working as expected --essentially, a solid-state, unpowered signal amplifier (gain).Math is too complicated for this scenario to be reliable; it would require a data center's worth of computing discrete charges. etc etc. Engineers in early radio relied on the results of experiments by scientists to characterize induction etc (for example, "Inductance Calculations" by Grover). Likewise, this open source hardware initiative's goal is to create equations for others to build upon.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:03:21 pm
content: Keep in mind TV antennas are 75 ohms impedance, the default for most test gear is 50 ohms. You can get adapters to go one to the other or get 75 ohm gear.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:20:37 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on November 14, 2015, 11:03:21 pmThank you, TheSteve, yes. Adapters are important. The Tek quote includes a high voltage probe because tests also will be used for some super-high gain configurations. Don't want to fry an investment at any value.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:25:41 pm
content: I'm trying to be positive here, but honestly, you are a long way out of your depth.Anyone here who has gone through the latter day craziness of trying to get an indoor TV antenna to work reliably will contest that you're in for a world of pain. Yes you can get it to work - like a fork or a wet piece of string can work - put only sometimes, and not reliably.TV was never designed to work with indoor antennas. You have to deal with path loss, multipath, broadband, gain, side lobes, front to back ratios etc etc. In these days of more and more unintentional radiators, the chances of an indoor low gain narrow bandwidth omni antenna like a halo being a realistic proposition in 95% of cases is not high.Please don't think you can fix it with an LNA either. You're indoors, that's the problem, an LNA will amplify the signal, sure, but also all the noise too.An oscilloscope has little practical use for directly testing an antenna.A VNA does have use, as does an RF signal generator, RF power meter and appropriate horn or log periodic lab antenna for measuring gain and side lobes. You also need a space to do those measurements: you can do them to some degree outside in a reasonable space taking into account ground reflection, but an anechoic chamber is the only way to practically get reasonably accurate measurements.If you are looking at LNAs then you'll need a way of measuring noise figure. Without that your LNA will likely be worse than not having a LNA at all.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:29:05 pm
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 14, 2015, 11:20:37 pmhow did the Tek salesman think a high voltage probe would help? I really want to cry at this point....!

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:35:04 pm
content: By the way, the Anritsu S331 sitemaster single port VNAs are very useful for antenna matching.Make sure that it either a 75 ohm termination on the VNA or that you have a 75 ohm to 50 ohm minimum loss pad. Irrespective, you need to have an appropriate 75 ohm calibration kit that are compatible with your antenna feed point. I am not sure if the VNAs you quoted include them or not.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:36:01 pm
content: To be honest, a decent experienced radio amateur can do this with a signal generator, Bird Thruline VSWR meter, hacked receiver and a broadband discone. Total cost, maybe $500. All the rest of the stuff in your list is just a bunch of toys to play with. I'm afraid Dave is largely responsible with a whole new breed of toy collectors who don't have the first clue about how to really used gear. "Oh but I simply must have the latest Tek touch screen multidomain scopemeterarbgenglitchanalyser".

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:41:43 pm
content: Why bother asking people for money when it's been done to death..?There's nothing "novel" about TV antennas -- the theory is solid and products abound. You're limited to the performance of a given design: namely, that it can be small, low gain, and work on just a few channels, or large and good for many channels simultaneously, and with high gain/directivity.It sounds like the concept is a coax loop variety, which will work okay for a few specific channels, but will be dreadful over the full UHF band. And won't have much of any directivity. It may not match correctly either, which leads to VSWR and variable performance due to cable length dependence.The classic high performance TV antenna is a log periodic: good directivity and high bandwidth. And fairly bulky. Similar antennas like the Yagi or slanted types have higher gain and lower bandwidth. If less directivity is acceptable, a conical dipole or bowtie antenna will also perform well, though may not cover the entire band.Tim

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:49:22 pm
content: Tim: This one is best in UHF. It's small, high gain potential, omni-directional.Everyone:Electromagnetism is to electronics; as oceanography is to plumbing. This device works in the domain of physics, but not traditional electronics. That's why it need exploring.I admit ignorance to the use of this test equipment. That's why I'm asking here. (It's been almost 30 years since I've played with TE; Much has happened since then.)The HV probe is my request. The tv antenna is just one attempt at practical use of the technology. Some other cases consider transmission, and ultimately a configuration as an ion engine.The oscilloscope aspect will be handy to confirm rudimentary characteristics of a >1Ghz generated signal. For good signal characteristics, I expect to need 2+Thz resolution.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zad on November 14, 2015, 11:36:01 pmWhile I agree with your sentiment, realistically with that setup you're never going to achieve a reasonably accurate absolute results to within about 6dB or so, although you could characterise the antenna's radiation pattern and get an idea of how well matched it was, but it'd take a lot of individual measurements for broadband characterisation.There are a number of USB VNAs about these days that will cover VHF and UHF, they would be a much cheaper solution to the Anritsu. Again, the OP will need some means of calibrating his setup, but for VHF and UHF you could get away with making your own, certainly that is what I do for "difficult" terminations.Not sure how sensitive a Thruline slug will go, most RF signal generators aren't very pokey, plus you lose about 5dB with a broadband minimum loss pad, and I don't know whether Birds do 75 ohm or not.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 11:59:00 pm
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 14, 2015, 11:49:22 pmGood luck, that is all.

author: wn1fju
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 12:00:56 am
content: You said, "Tim: This one is best in UHF. It's small, high gain potential, omni-directional."Am I missing something? How can you have high gain and still be omni-directional?

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 12:08:08 am
content: QuoteNow your talking. I will wait for the ion engine crowdfund.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 12:30:15 am
content: Quote from: wn1fju on November 15, 2015, 12:00:56 amA 1ft prototype tv antenna in a field test using similar configuration shows up to 30+db gain over a standard antenna (according to tv reception meter).The configuration has not been explored in any engineering sources I have checked.The core configuration: Solid-state Synchrotronhttps://github.com/tekbasse/3S-OHLPrototypes of the ion engine indicate rapid oxidation or corrosion compared to same material in same environment and not configured. Corona discharge has also been recorded on some prototypes using a rudimentary car ignition coil to generate an isolated AC pulse.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 12:34:39 am
content: Quote from: wn1fju on November 15, 2015, 12:00:56 amEverything's relative, sometimes high gain means less lossy....Technically you can, by phasing multiple elements to sqieeze down the radiation pattern, but then it wouldn't be small, that's how colinear vierticals work for example.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 12:44:18 am
content: Thank you everyone for the suggestions and healthy criticism.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 12:51:19 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 12:30:15 amI don't have the facilities to read most of thise files to hand, so can't tell what this is about. If you are multiplying up power with a device without changing the radiation pattern, then you are not only amplifying the signal, but also the noise, so the SNR remains the same or worse due to the additional innate noise from the amplifying device. Producing 30dB of gain is easy, but doing it without amplifying the noise too is hard.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 12:55:35 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 15, 2015, 12:46:47 amThat's the point of this topic.I'd like to avoid having to reach a +40db stretch goal to get the best results for everyone.About the only way that $1000 will get the tools is by harvesting the experience and smarts of this group.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:00:27 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 12:51:19 amRight. What's fascinating, is the tv with antenna generating 30db gain auto-programmed stations at the range limit according to tvfool.com, but the strongest, local stations were missing; Manually selecting them resulted in saturating the receiver.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:02:54 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 14, 2015, 11:49:22 pm....+((zzz((-......+6llllllllllllllllllllZz+..-OllllllltllllllltllllllllllllllOi..JOllllllllllllltllllltltlltlllllllllllOI...6lllllltlltlOt?=!~ !?7<OOllllllllllwi..(OlllllllllOv7` ?1ylltlllllO6..OlllllllltO= ?COlllllllOn..Sllllllltlln. 7ylllllllv+.Olllltlllllllvi ?slltllltnJllltlllltlltllllvi TOllllllG.Jlllllltu= TOlllllllZ< . c .sltllllw..lltllltv` .4OlllllllZ< ( b .kllltllG.OlllltOr .1OlltllllZ........ M M SllllllLDllllltr .1Olltllll1TMMMMM.Mx. ..........M .ylltlld..llltllJ .2llllllllidMMMN.YMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM"' .OlltllLKlllllu\ .JMMmvltlllllliTMMMN&x MMMMMMMMMM Sllllld.6ltllld .MMMMMMmvtlltlllliTMMM] HMMMMMMMM] .lltllt].llltll] .MMMMMMMMMmzlllllllliTM] .MMMMMMMM` .llllll].llllll] x .MMMMMMMMMMMMm1lltlllllzb (MMMMMM] .lltlll].ltlltl] b MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMm1llllllllI. 4MMMM# .llltll].ylllllG M .MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMm1lltlllll6.TMMD .lllllt]Kllltld M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMg1llltlllt6. Dtlllldjllllll] (MgMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMg1llllllll6. .llltll2.kltlltd. .!"MMMMMMMMMMF??TMe1lltllllt6. .Olllltd^.lllllld. "MMMMMMMMM MM]?ylltllllO6. .Iltllllr4lltlllw. .!""MMM MM] 7ylltllllOn. .OlllltlJSlllllld. .MMa. MMM MM] 7slllllllOn..Ollllllld`4ltllllOn (MMMMM ?MM TM] 7yltlllllllllltlltv`4tlltlllZ< .WMM#^ ? ` 7ylllllllltllltv?slllllllZ<. 4lllltlllllu=TOlltllllOI. .vlltlllltlOv!.1OllllllllOI.. .JOllllltllltv'TylltlltllllOz<... ...zIlllllltllllOv'?1OlllllllllllllltOOOOOtlltllllllllllllty=`?1ylltlllllllllllllllllltlllltltlOv7`?7lOlltlllllllltlllllltlOy?7``?7<<llllzz<+7=?~QuoteYou may want to try to raise a fund to try beekeeping on submarines. Your chances of success are better...QuoteThat Tek machine doesn't even come close to that bandwidth.... Besides, modern TV signals are spread-spectrum...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:05:26 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 01:00:27 amThis Is hard work, and to be honest I probably should have given up already.What is producing the 30dB of gain? Is it the passive antenna, or some powered amplifying widget?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:14:53 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 12:30:15 amWhat kind of nonsense is this?Oh, FML. I've stumbled into one of those threads where the OP has co-opted a technical field's jargon as techwords to sound smart.I can define all the words that have been used on that description page, and none of them are being used correctly.Ugh..Tim

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:32:33 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 01:05:26 amThe passive antenna. The closest to a traditional antenna configuration I can think of is an array of parallel stacked, equal size loop antennas with a conductor (monopole antenna) inside each loop that couples the antennas (and thus perpendicular to the loop planes). It's a cascade of self and mutual induction.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:34:00 am
content: https://github.com/tekbasse/3S-OHL/blob/master/FAQ.TXTQuote

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:38:40 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 15, 2015, 01:14:53 amGood thing I have an open mind and am appreciative of input. Why don't you correct me?

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:12:37 am
content: In summary, test prototypes using:RF voltage metercirca $300orsignal generatorVSWR meter (Bird Thruline)receiver (tv hacked)circa $500or4.4GHz USB spectrum analyzer (a Signal Hound)(requires purchase of PC also).circa $550orvector network analyzer (VNA not scalar/SNA or spectrum analyzer + signal generator )RF signal generatorRF power meter (VSWR or PSWR?)Faraday Cage (Anechoic chamber)(Analyzer should use a 50/75ohm impedance converter or calibrate accordingly)Thank you.Any recommendations on what TE produces smith charts etc and can be calibrated without a trip to a calibration shop?(a hackerspace can be kinda tough on equipment)

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:31:56 am
content: Any suggestions for equipment at lower frequencies?The problem domain is largely determined by the circumference of the round conductors. Larger prototypes can be made, just have to be more careful with high-Q and power given the higher capacity conductors.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:35:35 am
content: Why don't you wave it around until you get good reception, you don't need to reinvent the science, just buy a book on antennas if you want to make a better one.If this is what you're making it's not exactly high tech. Getting people to pay for your gear seems a bit of a scam where I'm sitting, what are they getting for their money?

author: Kappes Buur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:43:52 am
content: I am one of those guys who was fed up with paying for cable TV.I scoured the internet and found several approaches on YouTube and Instructables using coat hangers, aluminum foil, etc.Those did not hold any appeal for me, so I looked some more on the internet and foundhttp://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-over-air-ota-digital-television/The plans for a simple GH antenna seemed just right, so I build one using PVC tubing and fittings and AWG 10 solid copper for the elements. Works extremely well for local stations, but not so much for stations operating in Seattle.So, I wonder what range tekbasse's antenna will have ?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:46:52 am
content: So far I enjoyed reading all the nonsense OP posted.

author: tec5c
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:47:28 am
content: I don't see the point to this thread. The OP's first post is just a statement, the rest of the posts just left me scratching my head.If you don't even know what test equipment is required for your project, how do you intend to design and build an antenna?

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:56:18 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2015, 09:38:40 pm+1, it's been dead for 2 years in Australia.To OP: are you okay?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 06:20:03 am
content: Digital TV is available over the air here in Toronto, i receive may be a dozen channels from Canadian and US broadcasters using a externally mounted directional antenna of a conventional design.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 06:21:43 am
content: Quote from: crispy_tofu on November 15, 2015, 05:56:18 amPoor reception can drive people to take extreme measures. When digital came out, I made a DIY one, took about 10mins to look up a design and $5 for a balun.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 07:14:29 am
content: Quote from: tec5c on November 15, 2015, 05:47:28 amThe problem domain is in first-principle physics, not specifically an antenna. The antenna is one test case, that's all.The topics of crowdfunding and any specific antenna project are irrelevant to this topic. Comments on them don't seem appropriate;My ignorance is mainly of nomenclature and learning about existing tools, their features and limits of measurement. Whatever high frequency high gain apparatus I want to examine is irrelevant; Maybe I'll map the eddies on the surface of a metal cube; doesn't matter.

author: tec5c
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 07:22:49 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 07:14:29 amYou named the thread "...strategy to design a novelantenna..." and now you're backpedaling saying it's not about one.The "problem domain" is constrained inside your head.Quote from: crispy_tofu on November 15, 2015, 05:56:18 am+1.This thread is a joke. I'm getting sick of people signing up to this forum, making ridiculous threads then disappearing a short time after. Go find a physics forum...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 07:48:46 am
content: Get a commercial Digital TV Field Strength Meter. You don't need anything else to compare antenna designs.All that stuff you listed is a waste of time and money.I don't see any reason to crowd fund this, unless you are crowd funding the money to live on full time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 07:50:16 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 07:14:29 amIt does matter if you are crowd funding it. If you have no real specific idea of what you want to do, why would anyone give you money for it?

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 07:53:43 am
content: Quote from: tec5c on November 15, 2015, 07:22:49 amYour next comment directed at the OP will be reported.I'm just trying to find an explanation that will fit a paradigm you accept, so that you can return to the topic question (or go away). If you think all phenomenon in the universe has been discovered, good for you. I know very little; this is an attempt at open science and discovery.My mention of crowdfunding and open hardware was just to wrap the topic, to let you know that answers might be subject to a more open review at some point and that motive is not personal gain.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 08:02:04 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 07:53:43 amUnfortunately you have just raised the ultimate red flag on an engineering forum.The second you start talking about "undiscovered phenomenon" in science you will be instantly branded a "free energy"/"overunity"/"Tesla"/*insert other term here* nutter.So I'm afraid that no one will take you the least bit seriously after this statement. That might be harsh, but I'm afraid it's the hard reality of being on en engineering forum.QuoteYour initial post was all about crowd funding, now it's not?Crowd funding isallabout personal gain.

author: tec5c
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 08:10:00 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 07:53:43 amReport away. You've been here for 10 days youoffensive text removedBTW, you just got pwned by the owner.GG.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 08:20:21 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 05:12:37 amNo, VNA. SNA will not give you phase information, no Smith Chart, but if you're patient and know what you're doing it is possible to interpret the data and direction of phase with an SNA.QuoteAn RF power meter with bolometer head is not usually used for measuring SWR directly, you would need a directional coupler too. If you have a VNA there is no need for that. But you need the RF power meter and bolometer head for the antenna range to measure gain.QuoteNo, a Faraday cage is not an anechoic chamber.QuoteEither your equipment needs to by 75 ohm (very unlikely for most of it) or you need to be able to measure at 75 ohms using a minimum loss pad. Either way, you will need a method of calibration for the VNA, this is often in the form of a calibration kit which is a set of connectors with open/short/load that can be plugged in directly at the DUT's feedpoint: plugging in elsewhere means you're not testing the antenna.QuoteVNAs produce Smith Charts. Unless you really need to, for example your equipment is misbehaving, typically there is no need to use a calibration shop these days for what you are doing. For some equipment like VNAs, you will often need to calibrate them yourself very frequently, certainly every time you use a new set of sweep parameters or a different feedline to the DUT.Honestly speaking, you need to understand that being able to design antennas typically needs a lot of understanding both academically and through experience. Rarely are there breakthroughs in the technology, but there are a lot of ways to achieve similar goals, that is why not all TV antennas look the same.If you really think you attained 30dB of gain on a small passive omni antenna over an isotropic then good luck to you, but I am absolutely certain that you are mistaken, there is something wrong with the way you are measuring and/or comparing or the experiment itself.Finally, as I said before, you are so deeply in over your head it's difficult to know where to start. I guarantee that even if you did have a pristine lab, you would not know what to do with it. It's like giving someone a plane and telling them to go off an fly it without any form of instruction. It will take a lot of time and effort to get to a position where you have a reasonable expectation of producing a result, and throwing money at it isn't going to fix that for you at this stage. You could do a lot worse than study the technical side of the Ham licence, at would give you both practical and academic foundations. Blowing a few grand on a trophy lab will be money down the drain, and expecting other people to fund it is frankly, well, a piss take.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 08:39:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2015, 08:02:04 amThank you. I understand the dichotomy; Kinda funny if eddies now are in the realm of free energyI guess that means we know how the solar corona works etc. Quick, tell nasa to recall the solar probe plus mission.Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2015, 08:02:04 amSad if that's the EE perspective on crowdfunding; I'll remember that for the future here. Usually there's something of value in exchange. Checkout experiment.com for an alternate perspective.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 08:41:54 am
content: Make a huge bunch of antennas, make sure they all work on your TV and all channels come in strong on the TVs signal strength indicator (which isn't very accurate btw) then go and find your local antenna installer and ask him to test your antennas with his meter. If he tries a few and looks at you funny, invent something else, cost - nothing.Or go buy a book on antenna design discover the loop and other antennas designs have already been invented and learn the math/physics to see what you can improve on. It's got to suit all channels in all countries unless your intending on making dozens of models. If you think your onto something you could patent it and retire rich, because the indoor antenna market is quite large. The problem I see is everyone will either buy your antenna on aesthetics only, bring it back for a refund because they live in a concrete bunker, or just buy the cheap Chinese one.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 08:59:01 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 08:39:14 amThere is ahugepractical difference between scientists doing leading edge experimental science, and an individual who admitting know nothing about a topic, yet think they can go and discover some new fundamental phenomenon or break the known laws of physics.I admire people's passion to do this, but time and time again forums like this and the entire industry is filled with nutters thinking they have discovered Telsa's "secrets", beaten/bent the known laws of physics etc. This is why anyone who suggests that they want to do this is going to get shot down in flames on a practical engineering forum.If this is your goal then you are in the wrong place, there are plenty of free energy forums that will take you in with open arms.Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2015, 08:02:04 amOk, I expressed that wrong. I meant everyone who does a crowd funding campaignisgetting personal gain out of it. You must, by definition, because charity crowd funding campaigns are not allowed the big sites.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 09:03:09 am
content: For some reason people love the myth of the guy that came from nowhere with no academic training and "wowed" the academics and through imagination alone found a better solution than the evil academics could will all their qualifications or experience. I'm not sayingthat unqualified people (like me) are stupid but wise people without qualifications or formal training know very well to be cautious and recogniose when something looks too good to be true and to go and work out what it is they don't know about it.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 09:18:13 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 08:20:21 amSorry for the unclear parenthetical, Howardlong. I wrote it as: Requires VNA. SNA and spectrum analyzer w/ signal generator are inadequate.Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 08:20:21 amOkay. ThanksQuote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 08:20:21 amThanks for the clarification. Signal reflection needs to be avoided.Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 08:20:21 amThanks. I was able to pick that one up watching the Keysight Fieldfox demo videos.Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 08:20:21 amI appreciate your opinion. It's consistent with most EE I've discussed it with. I need proof in order to take it any further. Testing will either prove or dispel it --Either way a learning experience. Too bad there isn't someone local to Portland Oregon with equipment willing to try to prove it doesn't workQuote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 08:20:21 amThank you. I appreciate and respect your opinion. Points well taken. I know from experience and other contacts who have expressed similar opinions. When I was able to express myself well, they understood and suggested I find someone or a lab (such as at a school) to test it. No takers yet.I know I haven't expressed myself very well technically here. I need to practice more; I usually only have myself to talk to about it. I appreciate all the constructive criticism.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 09:27:36 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 09:18:13 amUnfortunately anyone with the equipment and expertise to measure it will almost certainly be of the same opinion as Howard, and they won't want to waste their time testing it to prove you wrong.I get requests like that all the time to measure free energy and other whacko claims, they'll come to my lab and I can "prove them wrong". Some will even pay for the privilege. My response is always a big fat nope.QuoteThere is a reason for that, as I just explained.

author: tec5c
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 09:38:55 am
content: *SIGH* Now you're back to designing an antennaYou can use my lab, or better yet, come to my University who is renowned for its antenna design. We have a dedicated EM and antenna engineering research group.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 09:51:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2015, 07:48:46 amThank you. I'd rather avoid crowd funding (understatement).Thank you for making and posting eevblog videos.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 10:06:55 am
content: You need to find an outfit like these guyshttp://www.csvhfs.org/who regularly set up antenna ranges and have shootouts.But be aware that folks like this really know their shit, they live and breathe RF. You can learn enormous amounts off them, but you need to at least have a reasonable grounding to benefit from it. Turning up with a few bits of wire lashed together and expecting them to give you an answer on a plate isn't the way to go, you need to be talking roughly on their level.Gain isn't everything. The problem with omnis is that even if you did have gain, it will be applying that gain not just in the direction of the signal of interest but also everywhere else, so you will also be receiving noise from the warm earth, and other co-channel interferers. While antennas are reciprocal devices, for reception you need to take into account of external environmental factors such as these: it's as much about picking the signal you want as it is rejecting those you don't.I don't have any details of your experiment but you didn't make any mention of polarisation or multipath considerations. Either of these can create a 30dB difference. Without knowing what the experiment was in detail and how it was conducted, it is not possible to draw any conclusions. If your TV became overloaded as you suggest it did, that might not be from the TV transmitter, it might be from someing else, especially if the antenna is indoors. The entire front end may be overloaded by an off channel signal and you are seeing the effects of intermodulation distortion and blocking. By the way, multipath is another reason why TV antennas are usually outside, to minimise those effects.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 10:42:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2015, 07:50:16 amI don't get why all these off-topic questions in this thread?Why discuss funding strategy in a Test Equipment forum? Why is it assumed I don't know what I want to do with crowdfunding or testing strategy?You asked. My answer:I'd like to test a novel ion engine concept. Not that novel really. VASIMR uses noble gases, a signal generator and ionizing circuit. The 3S novel concept applied as ion engine just might avoid the need for noble gases if the ion generating element is coated in a noncorrosive material, and might also reduce the need for generating a separate magnetic field to focus the ions into a beam ie. trips to Mars could be 2-way, because atmosphere could be compressed for re-fueling. This concept will be difficult to crowdfund without a proof of concept.To fund the proof of concept, alternate funding ideas must be explored. A small part of the ion engine concept can be made into a tv antenna. In the USA, low profile indoor tv antennas of low quality sell for circa $10; The XO Halo has been tested on 3 different tvs in three different locations, with consistently better reception in the worst of conditions and costs circa $1 to make. I've made smaller work repeatedly for circa $.20 of parts, but needs some tuning (via prototype/parametric range testing with VNR). A working antenna can't be guaranteed until production prototypes have been made and tested. As known by antenna makers everywhere, too many unknowns remain. If no one wants to partner (who wants to risk being associated with a EM experiment with high likelihood of failure?), is there a way an antenna can be "sold" or rewarded without expectation of being operational electronically? Yes, in the domain of art for art's sake. There it is. Sell art to buy test equipment and DIY; If enough find value in the art or story/concept, it gets funded.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 10:56:50 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 10:42:17 amWhat locations? What conditions? You could just as easily have said 100 different TVs in 100 different locations. As far as I am concerned this is all internet heresay, there is no detail or reliable evidence as to how of even if you conducted these tests. If they're so good already, you have no need for any test equipment at all, just go ahead an make them, and you'll be off to Mars in no time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 11:00:55 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 10:42:17 amBecauseyoumentioned it in your first post! The thread title is about crowdfunding and you mentioned itmany timesin your first post!And because youinvited commentson your desire to raise funds to buy test equipment!QuoteSeriously, I find it hard to believe you aren't trolling us...QuoteYou said:Quote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 11:03:55 am
content: Quote from: tekbasse on November 15, 2015, 10:42:17 amNo. An antenna that does not work is just a lump of metal.QuoteWho is going to buy your "art"?

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 11:04:22 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 10:06:55 amThank you. Digital tv's tend to create some of the strongest EMI also.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 11:08:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2015, 11:03:55 amI can hear you saying that. LOL. Toys, charms anyone ;-)

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 11:14:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2015, 09:27:36 amYes. Thank you. It explains a bunch. You've shown me about the availability of "low tech" oscilloscopes via ebay. Incredible tech; was not available 30 years ago. All I have to do is change the frequency of the problem domain to a lower frequency; Physics should work at any frequency; I first noticed the phenomenon in the VLF range. I think I can put together something with pocket change.. Yeah! Thank you again.

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 11:19:50 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2015, 10:56:50 amSorry, Howardlong, I'm not meaning to present "proof" here, or expecting you to believe; Just my experience. Production-ready prototyping is a hurdle much higher than proof-of-concept especially for antennas with undefined specifications.

author: tec5c
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 01:48:56 pm
content: This guy is oozing with the qualities of the infamous Dan Fredrikson (spelling?)Complete and utter joke.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 04:14:02 pm
content: It's turning into a good laugh anyway

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2015, 11:00:55 amIf you think I'm trolling, then do us all a favor: Delete the thread and ban me. If not, maybe the community thrives on laughing at someone trying to communicate with brothers and sisters at heart. You have the power to end the suffering.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 05:57:27 pm
content: If you contradict yourself and wander all over the place with your argument we will just assume you are trolling and enjoy it while it's funny and ban you when it's not. your choice, just reread the thread for yourself, read your own posts!

author: tekbasse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 09:05:27 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 15, 2015, 05:57:27 pmThe result of having to answer diverse topics without lengthy context. If you think its funny, try quantum mechanics or the Up Goer Five Text Editor:http://splasho.com/upgoer5/Your choice. The universe is a joke. Laughter its saving grace.