Digital drivers licences are now a thing in Australia - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 12:53:39 am
content: The state of New South Wales in Australia has been trialling digital driving licences via a smart phone application for about 6 months now in a limited area, which is to be extended to the rest of the state shortly.I'm in two minds about this... while the thought of a carrying around a plastic card in your wallet seems to be a little archaic, it's simple, achieves the intended purpose and is difficult to counterfeit. How long before some 16 year old develops an application which looks and behaves the same the authentic application on the surface, at least enough to buy a drink in a pub or allow entry to clubs (a fake application won't fly with Police as they verify the details through their own database).News piece here:http://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/mobile-phones/nsw-drivers-will-be-first-in-australia-to-start-using-a-digital-licence/news-story/5c76d21f2dc24bc0c127055e0411f523

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 05:10:39 am
content: In Victoria, if you stopped your car with the engine running and the cop asked for your license and you touched your mobile phone with your fingers, he could fine you $476 for using a mobile phone whilst "driving". The law will need to change to allow a driver to touch his mobile phone to show the hologram on request, or order the engine to be shut off first (ie: parked). To cops here are extremely strict on drivers using mobile phones whilst driving, but they can get it badly wrong. A friend was fined $476 for using a handheld mic on a 2-way radio (which is legal). The cop thought it was a mobile phone. Two court appearances already, with no cop turning up. Third court appearance this month. My friend will fight on, but he won't any justice out of this - they will make sure he will lose financially even if he wins.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 06:19:04 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 13, 2018, 05:10:39 amThe road rules are pretty standard across the country. The definition of "driving" isn't "having the engine running". Driving means "to be in control of [propulsion/steering/braking etc...]". If you're stopped on the side of the road, with the park brake applied and the gear in park/neutral, you aren't "in control of" a vehicle, therefore you are not "driving". There is no requirement under Australian law to turn off the engine to a vehicle before you're not considered to be "driving".There are also exceptions to Road Rules if you're been given a lawful or reasonable direction by a Police officer, such as Rule 304:(1) "A person must obey any reasonable direction for the safe and efficient regulation of traffic given to the person by a police officer or authorised person, whether or not the person may contravene another provision of these Rules by obeying the direction."and(2) "It is a defence to the prosecution of a person for an offence against a provision of these Rules if, at the time of the offence, the person was obeying a direction given to the person under subrule (1)."Don't believe what you see/read on TV or on internet forums without reading the rules for yourself.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 06:27:29 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 13, 2018, 05:10:39 amIt's fairly unjust that a no show of the police officer doesn't result in an automatic dismissal of the charges.That being said, we're rapidly making mobile phone a single point of failure and I don't feel that's a very good idea. No matter how secure they claim the application is.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 08:20:28 am
content: This is great for driving abroad. </sarcasm>

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 08:34:59 am
content: Problems I see with this are:It means showing your phone to police, which might contain all kinds of personal information.Phones get hacked.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:18:35 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 13, 2018, 12:53:39 amWhen you enter a nightclub after the alloted time (often 10pm) you must show your drivers license. The license number (& your associated birth date) are actually checked by the machine on entry via the registration department's database.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:29:29 am
content: What could possibly go wrong?

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:30:18 am
content: The battery in my drivers licence is flat.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:41:28 am
content: This is something I don't get and don't agree with.Name one thing that is wrong with a traditional driver's license that a phone could do better?Operate without power? Be easier to get? Be less likely to be stolen or forgotten? How about operate without a network connection?I find that the argument, because it's archaic is, no offense, a crock of old shit. As if having a piece of plastic, coated, laminated paper is such an unbearably old idea we need to replace it.I'd rather just keep my plastic ID on me, it's not running out of juice any time soon.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:48:51 am
content: If your stopped in the good old USA and you reach for your phone the cops shoot you. Problem solved.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:50:36 am
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on May 13, 2018, 09:48:51 amNo, that's not true, you're doing it wrong. All you need to do is start being white, and the cops don't care what you do.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 12:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on May 13, 2018, 08:34:59 amWhy do you think they're doing it? "We need to see your ID" *unlocks phone* "Thank you very much, we'll just take this for evidence.."

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 01:03:08 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on May 13, 2018, 09:50:36 amColour of skin is no guarantee. A cop in the Minneapolis police force shot dead a white Australian woman for no reason.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 05:15:34 pm
content: At the moment, it's optional to use the phone. You still get a physical card. Of course, if the phone version proves to be cheaper then I can see that changing.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 08:41:19 pm
content: It sounds like typical government logic. They don’t want people using cell phones in cars so they implement legislation ensuring that every driver in the country has to own a cell phone and carry it in their car at all times when driving.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:15:58 pm
content: Willingly handing your phone to a cop in the USA without her/him signing some sort of agreementProbably means you just consented to a search of the phone. Ask folks in Michigan who were asked for their phone on a "good will" basis by the Michigan state police. Who had a box the promptly scanned the phone for social connections.Steve

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 09:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on May 13, 2018, 09:15:58 pmThis video comes to mind.https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 10:14:29 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on May 13, 2018, 09:41:28 amWell, the phone can connect a fundamental identifying piece of information with GPS data and an internet and phone connection....oh wait that's not really good for us.This app requires the following permissions:Access GPS dataAccess to SMS messagesAccess to contactsThis app may use data

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:01:03 am
content: Hmmm ... Access to GPS data - in real time. How to turn your own device into a speed trap, which would have the capability of issuing you with an infringement notice on the spot - without you having to even slow down.You know ... thereisone way to absolutely circumvent any "revenue raising" of this sort and it can get summed up in two words...... Anybody want to give it a shot?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:04:37 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 14, 2018, 01:01:03 amGet rich.Shoot yourself.Stop driving.Order Uber.Stay home.Join force.Anything to your liking?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:15:09 am
content: A good effort - but didn't quite hit the target I had in mind.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:16:24 am
content: Shut up.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:18:06 am
content: OK, we're getting a little beyond the scope of the original topic. Did some of you leave your foil hats at home or something? Your phones will not be turned into some kind of speed measuring device, just like your GPS cannot be used as a defence for speeding.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:22:36 am
content: Being suspicious of governments is like being suspicious that your dog will piss on the rug.It's likely to not happen, but also likely to happen. Governments are clouds of chaos, held together only by that chaos.Personally, I see absolutely no benefit. There was nothing EVER wrong with plastic licenses, and having to complicate pull overs for all involved I see to be a massive downside. It's going to be complicated, it's going to break, it's going to require additional money to secure it and ensure it can't be abused, and at the end of the day, it doesn't help anybody. This only leaves some of us with suspicion that the government wants to do something here, like they want to do with throwing back doors into things like WhatsApp.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:30:52 am
content: No tin foil hat here - but the capability of capturing such information is not a stretch at all. The legal impediments in acting on it would, I expect, be problematic in the least. I often wonder about the permissions an App requests - and have cancelled the installation of an App for what I considered unreasonable access.But, I agree - this is getting off topic. Before getting back on-topic, my answer to my question is "Don't speed". I find it amazing that in all the noise about "revenue raising" this is one simple response that the authorities never seem to make directly. If gets left to Ad campaigns.Back on topic -Questions:- If we do end up carrying a digital licence - can I have it on a cheap tablet?- Will I need to allow the officer to take my digital licence and the device it is on from my possession and possibly out of my sight?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:41:33 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 14, 2018, 01:30:52 amI suppose you can have it on any device you like? I don't think plastic licences are going away any time soon. I'm guessing at least for the foreseeable future you can elect to have a physical licence (in addition to a digital one).I'm guessing the legislation will be modeled based on the laws enacted for the trial. Some relevant points are:61D Use of digital driver licence(4) Any Act or law that authorises a police officer or person authorised in writing by the Authority, or any other person, to seize a driver licence does not extend to a mobile phone or other electronic device on which a digital driver licence is displayed.(6) A person does not commit an offence under this or any other Act or law arising from the person’s use of a mobile phone if the mobile phone was used only for the purpose of displaying the person’s digital driver licence to a police officer when requested to do so by the police officer.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 01:47:19 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 13, 2018, 05:10:39 amI believe in the US, no cop = automatic "not guilty".

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 12:07:28 pm
content: An update. The dodgy cop finally decided to turn up to the third court appearance. He said he had an electronics device that proved my friend was on the phone. Unfortunately for the cop, my friend had the electronic call log he got from the phone company, proving he made no call anywhere near when the ticket was issued. The court session went for over an hour and a half. The judge dropped the case after reviewing the evidence. Of course there were no apologies from the judge or the idiot cop. My friend lost 3 days income (and sleep), which is a lot of money for my friend but chicken feed for the judge. My friend won, but he lost 3 days income so he lost.I don't think cops can use an electronics device to prove a specific driver is on the phone, unless they have sniffers and use triangulation. Even then, in thick traffic, they cannot not be sure. But it is technically feasible using RF fingerprinting.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2018, 02:07:38 pm
content: VK3DRB, I'm more curious to the fact the police are using any form of cell phone sniffers, I'm assuming if so they would be looking for voice data, and not packet data, so a person using a mapping services, or a music streaming service don't draw there attention.It has been a while since I had any kind of look at mobile encoding schemes, I suppose its not out of the question that the cellular modem background data may include info on whether there is a local or speaker/bluetooth call underway, however that is speculation on my part. though by the sounds of your friends case, as they did not have a phone number, I assume they are working on presence, not content.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:26:06 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on May 14, 2018, 02:07:38 pmIn short, no, the Police (in Australia) don't use any such devices. Mobile phone offences are detected by good old fashioned observations by the Police officer (which isn't particularly hard, how often do you see people on their phone?). This can be backed up by Police in-car video, admissions by the driver, additional Police witnesses, CCTV or call records. Triangulation and other methods aren't used for traffic enforcement.Quote from: VK3DRB on May 14, 2018, 12:07:28 pmVK3DRB, I'm sorry to hear about your friends' experience with Police. But for the most part, Police do an excellent job and there is a reason why Australian Police are among the world's most respected. There are lazy people in every workplace, it doesn't matter how specialised or sophisticated the workplace is. There could be very valid reasons as to why the officer didn't show up to the court hearings, but at the end of the day, Police should be sure of their observations before issuing a ticket. If in doubt, don't issue one.Also, ordinarily call records alone isn't proof of innocence. Many calls these days are made using data services, which don't appear on regular phone company bills/accounts. I'm not saying your friend is guilty, but in my experience, if that's the only defence someone has for not being on their phone whilst driving, it will generally be laughed out of court.On a related note, drivers don't seem to be getting the message about mobile phone use. Fines and demerit points aren't enough. On any given day, I witness at least 5-10 people on their phones while travelling to/from work. Police need to start seizing and crushing phones for repeat offenders and just simply start suspending licences. You can have your driving licence suspended on the spot for mid-range drink driving, some speeding and other major traffic offences, mobile phones should be treated the same way. There are almost no valid excuses to be fiddling with your phone while driving.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:48:56 pm
content: I agree. There is no excuse for people using mobile phones whilst driving. My friend has integrity and he would not lie. He did say the cop was arrogant and rude. One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl. Most police have integrity and are decent - in Victoria anyway. But I have witnessed police breaking he law whilst driving.The state should compensate defendants for loss of wages if the state loses the case. Surely the state makes enough money from fines to pay compensation. But really, this pales into insignificance compared to countries with broken legal systems like in 18 states in the USA where they do not compensate their victims at all if they have been exonerated after spending decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. Yes, three days lost wages is nothing in comparison. The bank HSBC knowingly launders billions of dollars of Mexican drug cartel money so they too can profit from the illegal drug trade, and yet not one of the crooks running the bank got jailed. But if some poor knucklehead gets caught selling ice on a street corner in the USA, he gets 40 years jail.There is a lack of accountability in big business and big government. Yet the little man is always accountable and easily dealt with.

author: RobertHolcombe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 01:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 14, 2018, 01:01:03 amUnless you're required to declare when you are in control of a vehicle they could never get away with that

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 01:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 16, 2018, 12:48:56 pmThe police officer who brought the false charges should. That might make them think twice.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 11:58:09 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 16, 2018, 01:06:47 pmPolice stopped getting costs awarded directly against them a long time ago. Now they basically get a "please explain" from their supervisors and if it's serious enough, perhaps some managerial action and a note on their personnel record. The organisation wears the actual costs if there are any. You also can't sue a Police officer personally in Australia if they are acting in execution of their duty, rather you sue the relevant Police service (an example would be, if you claim a Police officer assaulted you during an arrest or interaction).Having prosecuted many matters in Australia, I don't agree that an individual officer should have costs awarded against him/her. In my experience, probably a good 80-90% of defendants before the court are truly guilty of breaking the law (whether the court comes to the same conclusion is an entirely different story). It's not uncommon for a matter to be dismissed, not because the defendant is completely innocent, but because Police prosecutors couldn't prove it either in accordance with the Evidence Act, investigating Police didn't do a thorough job, mental health reasons or even because the magistrate decides to go easy on the defendant and not record a conviction.99% of the time, Police do good work. You have those that do the bare minimum and probably get up in court most of the time, you have those that go above and beyond to investigate matters thoroughly, then you get those few who are just slack, make assumptions and don't do the job even to a minimum standard.Trust me, if you got to be a magistrate in a local court for a week, you'd be throwing the book at everyone.I'll also add, front-line Police cop a lot of flack from management. Expectations of them are sometimes ridiculous, all in the name of statistics and figures rather than actual proper Police work. Those working on "the beat" are among the hardest workers and the lowest paid (not that the base pay is bad, but they aren't entitled to any special allowances like detectives and other specialised units are), there is no way I would do their job.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 10:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 16, 2018, 01:06:47 pmOnly if intent is proven. We all make mistakes.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 10:24:48 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 17, 2018, 11:58:09 amI actually almost join up for the police force many moons ago, but instead became an electronics engineer instead.So rather than working with officers frequently on the beat, I ended up working with beat frequency oscillators.