Management requests and pay grades - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 07:55:52 am
content: I wonder if I might bother you folks for some advice.I've worked at company-X for a while now - mainly in administration and some basic engineering tasks for CNC machines.Occasionally I get a request to make a database or spruce up some excel sheets - pretty basic stuff - and occasionally I get asked to make some hardware (for instance one of our CNC cladding machines has a speed compensation controller that and display unit that I designed and built, and I'm currently waiting to install a second unit)I even get asked to do some IT work from time to time, handling minor requests: I'm a jack of all trades, master of none (but frequently better than master of one)The point is I do a lot of stuff for not a particularly great wage.This week however I was handed a big project - disguised as a small project.The manager who issued me with this said "can you make these excel sheets into a database with reports that customers and vendors can access" and then proceeded to add some scope creep onto it for good measure.This database is not a simple project - there is a huge amount of data processing and reporting - and I even suspect it may need it's own server/VM due to the number of users required.I reckon that, working full-time on it, it will take at least three months - probably more - working part-time on it (because I have other tasks to do for other people) will take 2-3x more.Because it's a database that will deal will purchasing, funding, and cost breakdowns, there will need to a great deal of quality control in the database as well - and here is the problem.I do NOT get a paid anywhere near enough to take on a project this large, complex and critical - and even worse, I am the single point of failure on this project - if I get hit by a truck the project stops dead in it's track (key person risk factor / bus factor / truck factor == 1 == not good)The question is how to deal with it!-Do I simply tell them they aren't paying me enough to do that?Well that sounds pretty damned arrogant!-How about explaining the complexity of the project and advising them to seek expert advise and getting a consultant in to discuss it with them?That might work, but they are going to baulk at the costs involved.Even worse, they might try and spin it round and make out that it's not actually complex (despite not being technologically competent)-Find a new jobNot enough time - I can't exactly stall the project until I get recruited somewhereI am technically working to find a new job anyway - but that's neither here nor there.-Do the project anywayThey (management) are NOT going to like how long it takes nor the problems that will be faced during production.I am going to be irked that I am being underpaid (and underappreciated) for carrying out the taskThere is a chance the project will fail (there'salwaysa chance that a project will fail - which is why risk management exists) - if it does fail the blame will be aimed squarely at me rather than at the specifications provided or the task itself. The risk is greater than me than it is for them (as I'm the one having to provide the goods and services!)Any other suggestions?I'm tempted just to explain pretty much everything I just said to my supervisor and see what they say - but speaking to the supervisor is scary - and asking them for a >30% payrise to bring me up to the lowest end of the industry standard sounds impossible

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 10:07:42 am
content: I would suggest doing all of the first three of your suggestions.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 10:40:14 am
content: Don't ask for more pay if you think you can't do it (and don't want to either) on your own anyway :/Do very much voice your issues to your supervisor, never be afraid to talk to a superior at work if it's relevant to the tasks assigned to you. If he ignores you, get it documented and talk to his boss. If the hierarchy works at all that is.I don't know what country you're in (browsing in the phone here) but it is usually a very bad idea to refuse to work and things should be handled differently. You could ofc say you don't know a thing about databases (what is your job title and what does your work contract say about the type of work you are supposed to do?).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 11:05:26 am
content: Maybe they are vetting you with the project to see how well you handle stress, organisation or other management qualities. Preparing you for a promotion.At one point, I had to tell management, that I'm not going to do a certain job. It using me as an "emergency production technician". you know, the one, which requires you to use a screwdriver, not your brain. I told them, this is not what I was hired for, and this is not the job I am happy with.- But everyone does it, it is a bad situation etc..- Well, I'm not everyone.After this, task allocation was carefully made, so I did not get those kind of jobs. Dont tell them, that you are not getting payed for something.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 11:12:45 am
content: QuoteJust ask the a^&%ole to write it up, like it was a real project."make these sheets accessible by customers and vendors" is not a specification, it's a landmine.

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 03:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on April 21, 2017, 11:12:45 amOh, never mind a landmine - they're quick and easy - this is more of afougasse(not to be confused with bread of the same name)Quote from: NANDBlog on April 21, 2017, 11:05:26 amI wouldn't be so certain about any sort of promotion - for one thing he isn't actually my boss (but hehasbypassed my supervisor... and his supervisor... - which they're usually happy with as long as I let them know (and as long as its not a 3-month project)It's more likely I've just been lumped with the go-to-man title since I'm "good with computers" - a dangerous title to haveQuote from: Neganur on April 21, 2017, 10:40:14 amIt's not quite that I don't think I can do it - I can definitely deliversomething- the question is the length of time it will take me to come up with it and the consequences if it doesn't work (especially if it involves our vendorsandour customers - a potent mix guaranteed to be blamed on me ifanythingwhatsoever goes wrong)My contract is.... I don't know, I got transferred so many times that I'm not sure the original contract applies... actually I had better look into that!Officially I'm a "technical administrator" whatever on earth that means (working in Scotland/UK). I officially prepare welding documentation and I'm kinda-sorta a trainee weld engineer. In reality I do whatever most people ask me to do as long as it doesn't take too long.Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on April 21, 2017, 10:07:42 amVery, very temptingI've currently escalated it a little (to my supervisor and his supervisor (which control different aspects of the same area - so they're almost on the same level as each other - they more or less work in concert)): after explaining the time frame (oh you should have seen there faces!) and my required database architecture they advised that I explain to the requesting manager that I can do it but he needs to be aware that it may take a while - if he needs it done quickly I'm afraid I am not the guy to ask!Not a fun time though! I'm glad it's the weekend - I've been worrying about this for a few days now and only finally decided to seek advice (though I had mentioned it to my supervisor when the request came through - I've been compiling data and getting a project plan together (which is how I know this is going to be a big project xD))Thanks for all the help folks! I'll let you know how (if) it resolves

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 03:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on April 21, 2017, 03:20:51 pmThat's a red flag.QuoteThat's an orange flag.QuoteIt comes across as the bloke requesting the work wants you to do something that will make him look good (if it works), and costs him nothing (especially if it fails). You are very sensible to punt the decision upwards.OTOH, it could be a real feather in your cap, a door-opener, and a passport to Greater Things.You would also be very sensible to get a written statement ofsuccess/failure criteriaa must have / should have / like to have categorisation of prioritiesa staged approach, probably a short feasibility study to determine costs/timescales, alternative approaches, risks/mitigations, followed by the real worka statement of what you require (and from whom) in order to be able to proceed at each stage

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 04:29:08 pm
content: The pay grade question is orthogonal to the main issue, and thus irrelevant. Or course if they're not paying you enough (and we don't know how much) then you might want to do something about that. Not that it's easy.However the main issue *is* easy.Your chain of command is paying you to do certain work. Someone else is asking you to do something else. That's simple. You tell your manager what you've been asked to do, tell how long it will take (even pad it a bit), and ask him if *he* wants you to do that. Bearing in mind of course that you can't do two things at one time.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 04:45:19 pm
content: They pay you, they own you. Until you quit for a better job.So, sit down, strap in and get with it!They are paying you to get an education using live data in a real application. How much do you suppose that application experience will be worth in the marketplace? It's a goldmine! Spreadsheets, code behind forms, database, web front-end, potential server setup. You have just been handed the keys to the kingdom and you're bitching about it.Take the project for what it is! The challenge and opportunity of a career. Work as many hours as you can. Put it more effort than you believe is possible. Night and day - live that project. Buy and read books, research the web, do whatever it takes! It is your way forward!At some point you will need to consider that the company that trains you won't pay you. You will want to change jobs. But maybe you can still do some consultancy on your old project.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 05:21:02 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 21, 2017, 04:45:19 pmI certainly agree with this. There is *nothing* as good as being paid to learn on the job, instead of doing it in your free time or paying to go to a course.As long as your direct manager is happy that you spend your time on that then go for it!I disagree about working unpaid overtime though. That's a sucker's game.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 05:33:49 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on April 21, 2017, 05:21:02 pmWe don't know about the qualifications of the OP. Degreed engineer or CS major? Some level of qualifying education? Or is this On The Job Training?The point is, spending 6 years in college to get the paper required to get a job doing a project like this is also unpaid. Education is always an investment and it is always costly in terms of time and money.There's a reason for my views: I was working as a Journeyman Electrician at an aerospace company. When it was my turn to get laid off, they put me on salary working as a low level analyst. My boss wanted to computerize the reporting functions in a day (very early '70s) when computers were rare and programmers moreso. I scoured the plant and found a computer, I ran into a fellow who taught me to code in Fortran and I grabbed onto the task of computerizing reporting. I lived that job while going to college at night. Having unlimited access to a computer was fairly unique for EE students. Pretty cool stuff!So, I graduated, moved on and made a decent living all through my career. I have been comfortably retired for 13 years and have no intention of ever working again. Nor will I need to!Sure, I could have played hardball with the hours. Somehow, I don't think the results would have been the same.Grab the opportunity and run with it!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 05:45:20 pm
content: And remember Niklaus Wirth's "stepwise refinement". Get something working across the entire range of the application. Just a 'proof of concept' before fleshing out the boring details. Hook a spreadsheet to a database, connect up a web server and serve data from the database. Just get the big chunks working. Then worry about details.The details are boring, it's the big pieces that are the learning experience. That's what you will eventually sell.Security WILL become an issue. It's probably worth the effort to study up on how to secure the web server, database and networking. User management (permissions based on credentials) will be a huge factor.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 06:05:58 pm
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on April 21, 2017, 07:55:52 amNever be shy about speaking to your supervisor. Your supervisor wants you to be as effective as possible, and wants from you the best possible advice and information. Both of these things help your supervisor to be more effective, which is good for them.So the key thing is to be direct and open about the scope and complexity of what you are being asked to do. Explain about the requirements, the effort, the time, the cost, the extra people who may need to be involved. Lay it all out clearly as best as you can. Then ask your supervisor for advice about whether he wants you to do this project. If the answer is yes, then ask for the necessary support to be successful.The time to bring up pay is not right at the beginning, but a little way down the line, if the project is going well. You can say that you have demonstrated an ability to take on more responsibility and do more valuable work. Therefore you are worth more money.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 06:27:06 pm
content: QuoteAlthough you are absolutely correct, sometimes/most of the time /usually the employer that you demonstrated your abilities to and the one that will pay you more money because of it, are not the same."You've got to know when to hold 'emKnow when to fold 'emKnow when to walk awayAnd know when to run"

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 06:44:10 pm
content: All very good points folks! I won't bother quoting each one in turn and responding as my reply would be huge@IanB - That should definitely be the case! The management and the general environment isn't the friendliest I've seen though - which discourages open communication to some extent - plus there's the beloved minefield of office politics to factor in (my old supervisor was great - but he didn't play the political game and paid for it dearly =/) - you're right though - this is a definitely a good chance to get the communication channels opened up a bit!@rstofer - But I wan't to become stinking rich by sitting back and not doing anything, damnit!Landed entitlement aside, usually I'm all for learning new things - getting paid for it's a bonus! The problem in this instance is that there is a high risk factor both for myself and the manager asking the question - partly because the manager hasn't realised just how big a project this is (I believe they think it's like the other small databases with 2-3 users I've made in access in the past, which took 1-2 weeks each and weren't too fancy). This is further compounded by my being in a bit of a holding pattern these past few years after finishing up with uni: I've a lot of pathways sitting there for me - but I'm not 100% sure I wan't a career in this particular field though (ON the other hand, it's still a useful little feather in my cap!)@bruceholt - very good point, pay gradeistangential to the problem - I think what's happened is that I've arbitrarily lumped them together. As I mentioned, since leaving uni I've not really done much - I've got a BSci in Biochemistry, specialising in immunology, I've got experience in database design, I'm a decent programmer in several languages, I've a working knowledge of designing and building electronics (and even run a small repair/design service) but can't claim my knowledge is more than mediocre, and I've got experience in a huge amount of office admin-related gumph: so my options are very much open - it's just that I didn't have the best of times at university and my health suffered, so I sat in a holding pattern for a few years - and I'm starting to feel that it's time to move on - the pay issue has just been the pebble that started the rockslide so to speak! Part of the pay issue is that I was in the role of storeperson for the CNC machine shop when I first joined - and since being moved over to the engineering and fabrication department, nothing changed. In fact my wage hasn't changed in the last 5 years.@tggzzz - Ah, there many red flags where I work I'm afraid - most of them raised as a result of office politicsAs you said though - golden opportunity if I want to go down that path.@DimitriP - Wise words good sire!All in all - it would seem that change is on the horizon for better or for worse! A change in career or a change in perspective - who knowsIn the meantime, I've sent off an email to the effect of "if you can afford the wait, then it can be done - but if it needs done quickly I'm afraid you'll have to look elsewhere" and will hear back on monday: though I am o a little worried that any problems that crop up will automatically be blamed on me because the problem was highlighted by my database (which leads to a culture of covering one's back all the time which is not a good atmosphere to foster!)To repeat myself - it is a time for change - there are interesting times ahead! I'll keep y'all posted I'm sureThanks for all the advice everybody! It's been very much appreciated

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 06:48:49 pm
content: Get a quote from an outside consulting company, and present it along with your proposal of how long it will take, along with $$$. Make sure you include training costs for technologies you might not be 100% familiar with.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 07:01:21 pm
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on April 21, 2017, 06:44:10 pmThis isn't good. It sounds like you should already be having the conversation about how you are doing more valuable work and that your pay should be adjusted accordingly. You might also try to gather some market data showing salaries for comparable jobs as evidence that you are being underpaid. Don't threaten to resign, but do leave the unspoken implication that you might be able to earn more elsewhere. If your employer is sensible they will take note of that.

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 07:30:28 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on April 21, 2017, 07:01:21 pmSee, part of the problem (this is a very manifold situation the more I think about it!) is that we are primarily an oilfield services company (making tools and whatnot for various oilfield services) - with the oil crisis came a downturn and we're still recovering from the layoffs back in 2015 (which was why I didn't demand a payrise when I moved to engineering shortly afterwards).In addition to that the problem is comparing my position (which is a bit of hodgepodge of several other positions) to similar outside positions: if you pick any one of my skillsets and compare them to a trainee position in that particular skill then the wage difference is usually 70% of the lowest earners in that skillset - and usually about 2/3 of the average wage for similar training positions.I don't feel that's an entirely fair comparison though - as the people in those training positions generally have degrees backing them up.I'm going to stay on the issue - something good will come out of it even if it takes some patience!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 07:57:15 pm
content: Free hint: Research LAMP serverhttp://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/definition/LAMPOne download, a spare machine and you have everything you need to get started.You can still use Access or Excel on the desktop to connect to the MySql database:https://dev.mysql.com/doc/connector-odbc/en/connector-odbc-examples-tools-with-access-linked-tables.htmlhttps://www.mysql.com/why-mysql/windows/excel/All of this has been done before and most of it is standardized. Alternatives abound:https://www.microsoft.com/web/platform/tools.aspx

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 08:05:41 pm
content: I would raise a different flag.Exposing client/vendor information to the internet is a security issue and could touch private informationBefore continuing with it, make sure that you guys get input from your information security and/or legal department.You might have to change your architecture or requirements, or even scrap the thing because the dangers or requirements could be too much for something that clearly was never thoroughly planned or analyzed in a cost/benefit/risk level

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 08:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on April 21, 2017, 07:30:28 pmBut you said you have a degree, did you not?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 09:04:57 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 21, 2017, 05:33:49 pmI take your point but at college you get a properly recognised qualification, in return for your time and money. He may be getting paid to learn but he won't get anything else to show for it, to get a pay rise. If he goes to another employer, he'd have a hard time competing over others who are more qualified.Quote from: IanB on April 21, 2017, 08:42:27 pmNo, I don't remember the original poster saying that he had a degree. Going by his posts in this thread, I suspect it's highly likely he's just been trained on the job, with few formal qualifications related to the job but I could be wrong.Quote from: cprobertson1 on April 21, 2017, 07:30:28 pmIf you've not got any formal qualifications to back up what you're doing, then perhaps you should raise that with your supervisor?Perhaps then you could study part time and use the database as the college project too?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 09:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 21, 2017, 09:04:57 pmI'm referring to this comment:Quote from: cprobertson1 on April 21, 2017, 06:44:10 pmI think the OP is selling himself short.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 09:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on April 21, 2017, 09:11:42 pmI do too! A degree is a degree and beyond that it all comes from training. Sure, CS majors are probably better positioned but they need on-the-job training as well.Many years ago, I ran across a guy who designed ICs. His degree was in Astrophysics. Not everybody works in their major.I think I would be hesitant to expose a system to the Internet but for an in-house application, why not?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 09:42:58 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on April 21, 2017, 09:11:42 pmOh, I missed that!Still if it isn't relevant to the job, it's of limited use. Don't get me wrong, the degree (whatever it is, within reason) proves intelligence and the motivation to learn but I question whether HR departments get that. He should either look for another job, better suited to his qualification or study to get the job he wants.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 10:09:53 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 21, 2017, 09:42:58 pmNot at all. A degree is a degree! It's also a degree in a technical subject, not a "soft" subject like media studies.HR departments may act as the gatekeeper to new entrants, but once you are in the door it all depends on your immediate managers.It's really important to sell yourself and not do yourself down. I really think the OP is being treated poorly and should be commanding more money. It's not right to be paid the wage of a store person while doing a much more demanding and highly skilled job.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 10:39:28 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on April 21, 2017, 10:09:53 pmHell yes, I agree. If I was looking for someone and a CV landed on my desk with a good degree, in a proper technical subject like that, I'd put it to the top of the pile!Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence in the HR department in getting the CV to my desk.I've encountered a similar thing before. A fully qualified physician, with a good career behind him, decided medicine wasn't for him and wanted to go into engineering. Even though he did go on to study an engineering degree, he still ended up doing a job, which paid much less than what he was worth.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 11:05:56 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 21, 2017, 11:05:26 amYou do, i hope, realise that such usage is not mutually exclusive?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 11:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 21, 2017, 09:22:44 pmI would tell them that "Absolutely, I want to give this a shot!". "It might not be as capable as something we could buy but it might make a good 'proof of concept' and we can improve it later.".No negativity, just a realization that a one man show is less than optimal but, even with the concerns, you are up for the challenge!

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 10:53:40 am
content: To me, it sounds like you brought up the pay simply because you're not happy. Here in Germany, people jest that wages are sometimes mere "Schmerzensgeld", which can be translated as compensation for personal suffering - meaning that people only do the job because the compensation is high enough. From your initial post I get the impression that this project would be overwhelming because the complexitiy and business risk amount to substantial pressure that's on you and you alone. If that's the case then I'd argue that this is not an opportunity for growth and learning but instead a pathway to endless frustration and unhappiness. I'd also argue that the ability to create such a business database solution isn't a goldmine. To me, such a conglomerate of office applications used for business-critical decision making can only end up being a mess. It would be better to use a proper ERP software suite and populate it with the data using defined interfaces. But that would cost money, which they most likely won't want to spend. You're cheaper. And if it all works, they know who'll be in charge of maintaining it.You say that the risk is high because it's a one-man-show. I agree, but this isn't going to change even when the project is "done". If you quit the company, they'll be back to square one all the same because no one will be able to maintain the mess.QuoteWhy should it? A company wants the best labor it can get for the cheapest price. You're not demanding a higher price for your labor, so they continue giving you what you asked for initially. No demands - no raise. If you ask, the worst thing that can happen is that they say no and you continue receiving your current wage.I'd say you have two ways to make a leap in wage: a) become irreplaceable to the company and make them painfully aware of it (one-man-show, as above) or b) change employers and ask for a higher salary right from the start. If you do neither and only ask your current boss for a raise, they'll most likely only give you peanuts, if anything at all.Having a biochem degree while doing CS/EE work is however an issue. Figuring out which career path you want to choose is the first step imo. Getting adequate proof that you are able to do what you claim you're able to do is next. Otherwise, HR will dismiss your application right away, as others have hinted at already.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 04:11:39 pm
content: In the sailing world it is said that "The difference between adventure and ordeal is attitude!" Sure, the project will probably end up far short of the goals because, among other things, there is no formal definition of the requirements. That doesn't change the fact that the OP would be getting paid to increase his skills.Different topic: I don't see much future in asking for a raise. I never have... If my employer doesn't think I'm worth more money, asking for it won't change their mind. It's time to move on!Another mistake to avoid: Never accept a counter-offer. If the company didn't think you were worth the money before you got another offer, why do they think so now? Ultimately, accepting will be a source of friction and it just isn't worth it."Schmerzensgeld": Interesting word and more applicable than not. It's great when you enjoy your job and it provides enough to more than cover your needs. But, more often than not, if they weren't paying you, you wouldn't show up. That's why they call it work and not 'play'.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 07:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: abraxa on April 22, 2017, 10:53:40 amI agree but for the word "irreplaceable". The more difficulty it is to replace you, the less likely you will be promoted to a better/bigger/fatter job! Because your old job still needs doing and they can't find a replacement once you are promoted away.Substitute the word "irreplaceable" with "valuable". And, whenever your contribution exceeds your compensation, remind your boss: "hey, I will get it done for you as I always do. But, soon, I like my job title and my pay reflect that."There comes a time when you must throwing down the gauntlet: "hey boss, I am looking..." to "hey boss, I have an interview, I will be out next Tuesday, sure you want to loose me?"That said, keep in mind, some bosses don't react well to that. When you throw down the gauntlet, be prepare you may loose the fight. He may be looking for a replacement who would be more loyal.Quote from: abraxa on April 22, 2017, 10:53:40 amI would also add that it is market dependent. Different geographical area and/or different times are what I meant by different market. When employments are plentiful, employers are less picky with paper-qualification.

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 11:54:40 am
content: Before I go into rant-mode: just wanted to say "thanks" to everybody! Lots of very good advice there - going to give it another proper read-over tonight, which will hopefully help me choose my future course of action!And now for the rant...I have just reached a new level of utter frustration.On Sunday morning I received an email with both "EMERGENCY!"and"URGENT!" in the subject line.An email with "EMERGENCY!"and"URGENT!" in the subject line came in early on Sunday morning from Manager-X.It contained something to the sound of"HALP! We need a prototype made up right away to get an idea of how this will work in order to decide if it's worth the time - client X is coming in on Monday Afternoon and wants to see it - can you please come in immediately? We'll give you overtime! PLEEEEEEEEEAAAAASE!"So, I put in 12 hours shift (at double-time at least) yesterday and another 3 hours work this morning to get a miniature front-end made up that runs an internal SQL server running a massive, horrible and buggy flat dataset and I was thoroughly pleased I managed to piece something together so quickly.I showed it to the site director and he was pleased - so we took it to the meeting and... the client wasn't pleased - this wasn't what he had been promised...And that's when the BS hit new levels - manager-X turns to me and says:"What is this? Why have you made a database?"I can now safely summarise the series of events:-Manager wanted a FORM made up for spreadsheet data input-Manager asked me to make a DATABASE to a rather vague specification-Manager asked me to add some features to the vague specification-Manager brags to client about it (before it's even made)-Manager begs me to make said DATABASE ASAP so he can show it off-I made a DATABASE prototype to his rather vague specification-Client says this isn't what he had been described-Manager complains that I made a DATABASE to his specification-Manager asks why I didn't make a FORM like he had asked... in front of the clientMe -->I am absolutely scunnert with this (good scottish word that)And that is when things got interesting... afterward, Manager-X decided to be a vindictive little wallaper (another good Scottish word) and called my supervisor and manager to try and deduct my pay from the weekend (amounting to £190 I might add), claiming I hadn't done what I was asked and that I should be disciplined.Well of course, the second my email trail proved that I had done exactly as asked (within the vague parameters provided) my manager was straight on the phone to give him a verbal lashing: a 15-minute long riot act utilising every word you don't hear in polite company at least twice.It was a glorious retribution after a rather crappy experience!I've also been told to ignore any requests from said manager in the future. Turns out my supervisor and manager don't like him either.This concludes "The escapades of the office politics". Tune in next week for more adventures, action, love, violence, frustration, and drama - until then - just remember - Database == "Form" == "anything containing data"!Seriously, though. I think I need a drink!It's not usuallythisbad - honest!Usually it's a simple case of "Hey, can you do this" - "Sure" - "Aw you made that for me? That's excellent - it works beautifully - thanks!" -usuallyoffice politics don't factor into it at all!As I said earlier though - change is coming! I reckon it's time to seriously think about vacating this place. That will be a tale for another day I'm sureThanks again everybody! I'll report back later tonight with replies to the various comments

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 01:15:49 pm
content: What? I don't know what the average salary in your particular region is but £190 for 12 hours overtimeon a weekenddoesn't sound like a lot at all.And then the douchebag asking for your urgent help wanted to take back the money because HIS client didn't want what HE asked YOU to do? What a character...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 01:19:32 pm
content: Wow, what a story. I'm glad your manager stood up for you. I was ready to think you worked for a toxic organization, but maybe it's just one bad egg on the staff.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 01:48:03 pm
content: When I was in a contract R&D company, it was folklore that the (potential) clients that "burned hottest" by wanting something urgently were also those that "fizzled out" because they rapidly lost interest. OTOH those that arrived in reasonable time without a panic were often most profitable.It is always worth remembering, and reciting when appropriate, that "bad planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part".It sounds like you have done yourself proud with the people that matter. That may count for something in the future.Beware of the "grass is greener" syndrome. If you decide to jump ship, how will you determine whether the next company will be a better company to work for. They won't tell you (of course!), so you will have to find ways of eliciting that information. Personally I ask lots and lots and lots of questions.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 02:23:05 pm
content: Just my 2p worth...@cprobertson1 IMHO you are not doing your job! You are allowing yourself to get side-tracked into the whims of other managers and if you don't do something about it then it will probably all end in tears.You should talk to your own manager... work out expectations and try and come up with some set of deliverables you can do for your own manager which in turn will show your contribution/development, those contributions can be the basis for a discussion about £££/progression etc.It sounds like you are going to fail, and fail quite soon!, if you don't concentrate on the real stakeholder!

author: matts-uk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 07:43:22 am
content: It sounds like you got off lightly. They did not want a form or a database or a spreadsheet. They wanted you to build a rod for your own back. Unfortunately this particular story repeats more often than an episode of Big Bang on E4.It may help you in future to remember these words."Thanks, I am really flattered but what you need is a professional/dedicated software developer. I only dabble."If you want a career in software development, go get it. There are plenty of junior positions out there. A couple of well defined, limited scope projects on your CV should help enormously. If you do take that route, I bet there is not a software house out there who would give you the project you described as your first task, entirely on your own. Think of it as a measure of what a poor proposition it was.Learning when and how to say no, is very much the life skill.

author: cprobertson1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 09:26:48 am
content: Oooft! So much good advice here xD@IanB: luckily this particular branch of the company is split into two sites - with a dedicated fabrication site which is where I'm housed - and pretty much everything else handled at the other site. The organisation is a little toxic in places - but most of the toxicants reside at the other site - so there's at least a buffer between us!As I mentioned though - it's not usuallythisbad - probably just a bad apple on the crew more than anything else (in this case)I really do need to stop underselling myself actually - it may relate to working here that's lowered my confidence in myself@matts-uk: sage wordsI might consider a career in software development - I'm still debating the future career path - I've got quite a few options open to me actually so I'm rather spoiled for choice!@NivagSwerdna: It is true - but at the same time that's sort of how this particular company has always worked: periodically you get a "techie" as they tend to be called - and whenever there's a problem on an excel sheet they're the one they call (though I can't help but wonder if I should start routing them through to the IT helpdesk... though IT might hate me for it)@tggzzz: There are a couple of people I'm habitually cautious with - that is if they ask me to do something, I leave it a week or two before actually pursuing it - because chances are they've forgotten about it and moved onto the next "big idea"@H.O: I just worked back my salary to an hourly rate and it turns out I get a paid a little above minimum: but very slightly below the regional average.Aye, this particular manager apparently has a history of being a bit of a <thoroughly Scottish explicative> - but I've been isolated from him enough that I've never really been affected by it despite making him up some excel sheets in the past.@abraxa: "Schmerzensgeld" - I like itReminds me of an old saying (though I can't saywherethis saying came from...) - "Some people stop searching because they are happy - while others stop searching because they get paid enough to be unhappy"It would seem, as I mentioned earlier, that I really need to pick a career path and focus on it.@Hero999: "Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence in the HR department in getting the CV to my desk." - ah, yes - that is one of the many obstacles to be overcome!See, I've always assumed a relevant degree to be superior to an irrelevant technical degree when it came to HR - even if the degrees overlap (which technically means they aren't irrelevant but you know what I mean).I suspect most HR folks seeing a technical degree don't realise that pretty much every scientific (or applied science) degree requires training in mathematics, statistics, data processing, lab procedures (often including cleanroom practices), critical thinking and scientific methodology - but unless you were trained in one of those fields you tend to assume they're very narrowly focused on their named subject matter simply because you don't know what it involves.Ah well - that's the waythe systemis set up - just have to live with it (and write that in the CV and hope that HR don't skim past it)One final note - which I will file under "hilarious" because the alternative is that I scream (which will disturb the other folks in the office).Another manager has just approached my manager (at least they're going through the right channels) - asking if I could make a form to handle cost breakdowns for------wait a minute this is the same form that manager-X wanted me to make!What a coincidence!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 10:13:09 am
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on April 25, 2017, 09:26:48 amI was at that stage after 3 years in my first job, particularly whether I should stay technical or go into management/sales.I decided "what should I do?" was thewrongquestion, because I didn't have the information. Therightquestion was "how can I find out what I want to do?"Once I'd sorted that out, I looked for and found an organisation where I could try everything and see what I actually did enjoy. That was a contract R&D organisation, and I eventually chose to stay technical. YMMV, of course.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 10:47:13 am
content: Quote from: cprobertson1 on April 25, 2017, 09:26:48 amA very key thing is NEVER make a job application through the standard cookie-cutter HR channels.Find out who you'd actually be working with and google them a bit. Send them an email saying you're thinking about applying for a job there. Ideally get someone they already know to introduce you. Ask them if you can buy them a beer after work.If you get a potential colleague or manager to think that you might be a good fit for the job then *they* will either take your CV to HR or else tell HR to expect your CV and put it on top of the pile.I've only in my 32 year and counting career ever found one job via the "proper" HR channel.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 05:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: matts-uk on April 25, 2017, 07:43:22 amSome other very important words to remember are: "Have you cleared it with my manager?" Especially if a request comes from a completely different department.