Confusion on the Fluke 87V - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 02:32:51 pm
content: I found this forum as I am shopping for a new multimeter. One model that interests me is the 87V. In searching the boards for information have have come across comments that users find it annoying that it powers up with VAC as the default.What confuses me is that it looks to me like you choose the voltage on the rotary dial. What am I missing?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 02:40:58 pm
content: It defaults to AC on the mV and current ranges.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 05:08:45 pm
content: Thank you.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 06:53:35 pm
content: It’s annoying as fuck that “feature”. The older 87 powers up in DC. I use that more than the 87V now

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 29, 2019, 06:53:35 pmI can't even think of a good reason why they'd do it, it doesn't make the meter any safer or anything.Presumably the chief engineer at Fluke only ever works on AC, prefers it that way, and can ignore all the complaints.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 29, 2019, 02:40:58 pmNah. Actually the mV range is DC only (yellow shift key changes to temperature).All the current ranges default to AC and that's about it. I personally had preferred DC on the current ranges as well, but it's not crippling.The only other drawback of the 87V is the missing Low-Z setting but the 87V is still a pretty good allrounder.It's pretty fast, not bulky compared to others and more than good enough for almost anything I need a multimeter for.

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:35:57 pm
content: Don't you get Low Z when you shift the AC V measurement?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:42:40 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on August 29, 2019, 07:27:53 pmEven so, unless you really want the Fluke nametag or have a Fluke dealer on your street then you're probably better off getting a Brymen (rebranded as Greenlee in the USA).Higher CAT rating, more accurate, more features, lower prices...andjoeqsmith approved

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: NoisyBoy on August 29, 2019, 07:35:57 pmI think so...

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:44:43 pm
content: The Fluke 87 series multi meters are designed for primarily electricians. So is the Brymen 867s, they are not mainly for physicists or hobbyist. In multi meter land, if your want a more intelligent meter look for something like Dave sells. Or if money is no object buy a Gossen. We pay more money for the amount of thinking that has gone into the design of our multimeters.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 07:45:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 29, 2019, 07:44:10 pmNope. That's a low pass filter.

author: Ordinaryman1971
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 08:03:58 pm
content: If you are still picking your favorite I would go with 189 or 187, dual measurements, logging... with 189.And yes, 87V was electrician's meter... still a great tool to have.Amprobe is your other choice, great meter, not that talked about but... made by Fluke... unless you can't stand red, but then Brymen is out of favor too.Talking about colors, I like Greenlee green, BK Precision blue is nice too, Instek makes them light gray, pretty as well, Flir are black.... old Keithleys were brown.Do I have any orange ones.... let me think...Basically, it doesn't really end at one meter. You need at least two, just for sanity check and if you run out of damn batteries and to measure current and voltage at the same time.Get one, when you start looking for the next.I actually use 117 for quick measurements... like it.... have 189II on the bench, but it takes few seconds to boot up so if I just can't wait, I use 117 or 116.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 10:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: Ordinaryman1971 on August 29, 2019, 08:03:58 pmI'd have thought it would be one of the meters with "Electrician's Meter" in the name, eg. the 117:https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-117(which actually says "Electrician'sIdealMultimeter" in the name)The Fluke 87V is described as an "Industrial Multimeter". It has all sorts of features that the average sparky will never use. Plus you can't operate it one-handed with gloves on.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 10:30:31 pm
content: Ideal electricians multimeter is one that sits in the bottom of a toolbox with a leaked PP3 in it from experience employing the buggers.Measure something? Nah fuck that. Fire didn't come out so it'll probably be ok.My old car mechanic had a 117.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 10:39:57 pm
content: I'll probably never own either. I've got a 500,000 count Brymen.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2019, 11:54:25 pm
content: Thanks for the info. I have been reading the forum for a while now but haven’t come to a decision yet. I am probably 2 weeks away from pulling the trigger.It wasn’t my intention to start a “what meter should I buy” thread but since I am already getting suggestions I guess I should fill in some details. My old meter is starting to give up the ghost and I need a replacement. While I don’t want to throw money away I also don’t mind paying up for the right meter. My primary objective is accuracy measuring DC voltage in the 12v range. It will get used for other tasks but nothing else is critical at this time. I am no professional so I don’t care if it is labeled for electricians or not. The 87V has good specs on DC accuracy without breaking the bank which is why I was looking at it.I am open to any suggestions. Keep in mind that I am in the US.Thank you.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 02:23:39 am
content: Almost any new multi-meter in the world will meet your needs right out of the box, Zelmo. My choice if you don't know what exactly you will be using it for in the future and the Fluke price range is no problem, get the Fluke 87v. It's getting a bit long in the tooth and I definitely would not choose it.My current meter is a Bryman 852s rebranded Extech which is a bit off the mark for hobbyist stuff. I got it in a local pawn shop for $50 usd. I got the price down because it had a blown milliamp fuse. Nice meter, lots of counts. It has a 4 to 20 milliamp setting, It mostly sits on the bench while I use the Uni-t 33b for almost everything. I payed 7.50usd at a different pawn shop, it too had a blown milliamp fuse.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 06:28:37 am
content: Quote from: zelmo on August 29, 2019, 11:54:25 pmIf you're happy with the Fluke price then go for it. It's a good, reliable meter, it's been the industry standard for many years, but you pay a lot extra for the name.If you're interested in accuracy though, you might want to read this first and compare it with the Fluke:https://brymen.eu/wp-content/uploads/biall/102092/102092.KARTA_EN..2015-07-09.1.pdfYou can get one with a NIST calibration certificate for less than the price of an 87V.https://www.tequipment.net/Greenlee/DM-860A-C/Handheld-Multimeter/

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 06:37:04 am
content: Quote from: zelmo on August 29, 2019, 11:54:25 pmBrymen 859 and 869 are much better accuracy, more measurements and half the price. Also very robust, with the best of them.Also they are 50000 counts (500000 in hi res mode), so if you are measuring 24V or 48V it doesn't have to go up the range, keeping accuracy and resolution.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 07:21:29 am
content: I had an 867s. I found it irritating. It was difficult to jump around modes and work out what sub mode it was in because it remembered the last sub mode for that mode. With the Flukes they reset the sub mode whenever you change primary mode. You always know where you are and don’t have to interpret what mode it is in from the display and crowded unintuitive legend on the switch. Also it was huge and the backlight crap and turns off too early to make it usable. It’s safe and the engineering is pretty good but the human interface side absolutely sucks.Another contender is the Keysight U1241C. This is nearly as good as the Fluke and a lot cheaper. Only thing that isn’t as good is the touch hold. Mine came with a USB dongle as well which made it useful for data logging. The single was a standard serial port that talked SCPI.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 08:46:11 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 07:21:29 amTo paraphrase you :I had an 87V. I found it irritating. It was difficult to jump around modes and work out what sub mode it was in because it didn't remember the last sub mode for that mode. With the Flukes they reset the sub mode whenever you change primary mode. It would boot to AC. It drove me crazy.So it's about muscle memory, and what are you used to, and what you LIKE.Which is a good point you're making. It absolutely is something to have in mind.I made a comment because OP called out a 87V as meter with good (as in not expensive) price for the accuracy. It definitely is not. It is a great meter, but not inexpensive by any metric.Will OP make a mistake if he gets 87V . No, it's a great meter.Can he get better measurements specifications (his criteria, the way I read it) for half the price? Yes he can.But, again, you make a good point. Ergonomics are important. People have habits and opinions.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:23:16 am
content: There's no opinion here. It's just textbook shit HCI. I've watched people fight this exact problem to the death in the defence sector and get knocked down every time. For ref, I used to write hardware interface simulation software so they could get this stuff out the way through user studies before they had to break out any expensive aluminium machining and controls. The user studies always pointed to confusion by users who had to reverse engineer multi-level state rather than set it from scratch. Conclusively bad through research!I suspect how it ended up like this was to avoid retooling the switch plastics and contacts.Prime example: someone spilled some technicolour unicode on this switch position...That's the "everything that was left over switch"Certainly not the worst thing on the planet but it's nearly there.If you compare to the 87V, there are two modes clearly marked. White is primary, yellow is secondary. When you press yellow button the secondary mode is activated.Edit: also the damn backlight button (which doesn't change state!) is the same button as the mode selector on the 867s. It's like they were drunk when they came up with it.Lower end flukes have the best interface though TBH. 77 IV, 117 etc

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:34:35 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 30, 2019, 08:46:11 amThread over.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:50:57 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 09:23:16 amNot at all. A/mA is selected by moving the lead to the appropriate socket. AC/DC modes are selected by pushing the select button (and the choice is stored for the next time you use that mode, even if you power off).It doesn't get much easier than that.The "unicode" items aren't sub-modes. The meter is dual display so they're telling you what's shown on the secondary display at top-right, ie. Hz in AC mode or % value of industry-standard 4-20mA signals in DC mode.If it looks complicated it's because the meter has a lot of functions. On the Fluke you have to press a special "Hz" button to see a value that'salwaysdisplayed on the Brymen and there's no way to see both values simultaneously.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 09:55:42 am
content: I understand that, as a former user.However that's still way too much badly organised contextual information there. There are four derived contexts there:1. The default mode2. The sub mode3. The A socket4. The mA socketJust so much no there.On your last point on the edit, compare to the 187. They added more switch positions to stop context overload.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:04:54 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 09:55:42 amBrymen also makes more Fluke-like meters, eg. BM857 (the one I bought). It's not dual display so you get a separate "Hz" button. Still 500,000 counts though, and cheaper than the 869.https://brymen.eu/shop/bm857s/They're also smaller and squarer :-)Unfortunately they seem to be regarded as "old-fashioned" so Greenlee doesn't rebrand them even though they're still manufactured/sold under the Brymen name.Whatever. Buying a Fluke 87V isn't a terrible mistake.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:12:31 am
content: Yeah some of the other Brymen meters are much better in that respect.TBH the BM235 is probably enough for 99% of users. We just like more bells and whistleshttps://www.telonic.co.uk/Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-p/bm235.htm

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:16:28 am
content: Someone needs to make a padauk MCU + PCB kit that can be attached inside a Fluke 87V and automatically pulses the button to automatically switch to DC mode whenever you rotate to current/mV mode.Stick it on kickstarer for $20Should be pretty simple.Power up MCU when the meter does (so its off when meter is off)Detect position of switch.See if you can find a way to detect if the meter is in DC or AC mode (but may not really be needed as you can assume its AC if its first power on)1st time after power up - When switch moves to Current or mV mode pulse short the user button using a opto-coupler.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:20:12 am
content: Or just shitpost all over the Internet until Fluke come out with an 87VI and an apology for their sins

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:21:21 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 10:20:12 amThe fact that they have not fixed it already makes me think they never will.It should have been fixed a few months after someone complained and been in the market in the next batch of 87V units with new firmware. That was like 8 years ago.They must have an internal company reason why they intentionally don't offer a menu item to change the default.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:25:31 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 10:12:31 amThere's a$25 Chinese meterwith the same accuracy/counts as a Fluke 87V for measuring 12V.Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 10:12:31 amI definitely wanted 500,000 counts.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:28:38 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 10:20:12 amOther than that auto changing the primary mode to DC in all functions that support it, the way of having the Illumination always ON (I don't know if doing the Disable automatically power off by pressing the Yellow button while turning on the DMM doesn't do that) and having better accuracy, where they could improve without cannibalizing the equipments above (287/289 and the bench DMMs).Turning the 87V into a 87VI like the 187 was? But then doesn't that go into collision route to the 287?Sorry if I'm basically just don't know what I'm saying...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:29:40 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 30, 2019, 10:21:21 amThey'd have to pay $150 to change the machine that prints the cases?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:33:05 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2019, 10:25:31 amThose are ok if you are happy with something made of folded up tinfoil inside

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:36:11 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 30, 2019, 10:21:21 amIt's not a bug and nothing to be fixed. It is meter for electricians and makes sense to boot in AC. It's not Fluke's fault that people keep on using it for electronics. They have 179 that is marketed for electronics.Internal reason is that they don't want to spend a penny to redesign something that sells as it is.If you ask me, I don't care about 87V redesign. It is fine as it is, for what it is. Changing it would only spoil it by making it more complicated.I agree with BD139 on that, there should be all kinds of instruments for different people and purposes.What might be interesting would be if they bring back modern version of 189, or redesign 289 with better performance, smaller size and better screen.But, I have too many meters as it is, Brymen works real good for me and if anything, I might sell some of the meters, not buy new ones.. So whatever Fluke does or does not, I don't care at the moment..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:38:19 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 30, 2019, 10:28:38 am9999 counts in all modes (6000 counts is soooo last-decade)NCV detectionBluetooth...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:47:13 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 30, 2019, 10:36:11 amOn mA range?Quote from: 2N3055 on August 30, 2019, 10:36:11 amLess accurate, less digits, no uA range, no nF range ... to me it seems much more like an "Electrician's Meter" than the 87V is.I don't know where people get the idea the 87V is an "Electrician's Meter". Fluke don't call it that, electricians don't need half the features it has, they certainly don't need the DC accuracy. Where does this idea come from?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:49:25 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 30, 2019, 10:36:11 amAs owner of 87V, 189 and 287, when it comes to Fluke brand, once you used 189, you will never look back.Too bad its discontinued, but if you could get one with decent price and decent condition, as probably most are used, I suggest to grab one.It has the instantaneous boot speed of 87V, features wise close to top high end 287/289 model, and with big & sharp segmented LCD display, compared to the shady dot matrix of 287/289, and it is not that "bricky".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 10:52:45 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on August 30, 2019, 10:49:25 amAnother great decision by Fluke.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 11:03:15 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2019, 10:38:19 amAgain I say what functions that they can add (9999 counts in all modes OK, NCV detection they have in Electrician's DMMs, not even the 287/289 had that function and was released at the same time as the 117 that have, Bluetooth, Fluke already have the FC Wireless protocol, although since the 87V doesn't log, there are any reason other that remote display?) that will not cannibalize other equipments that Fluke already sells:Fluke 287/289;Fluke 28II;Fluke 3000 FC and their remote siblings for different functions;Fluke 279 FC;Fluke 179;etc?Again not being a fan boy, is simply if you develop a equipment that it's cheaper but packs the same functions as the more expensive ones, what reason did you have to buy the more expensive ones?Ok, something like the discontinued 187/189 (87IV/89IV)? That enters the territory of the 287/289.I think that basically is a typical, if it sells, and sells a lot, and is good and reliable, why change for the sake of change?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 11:52:03 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 30, 2019, 11:03:15 amA lot of people (me included) aren't buyinganyFluke meters right now. Because of price.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 12:01:12 pm
content: All my flukes are second hand because of price

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 12:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 12:01:12 pmDitto

author: Ordinaryman1971
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:18:32 pm
content: My advice is.. get it used for half a price. If you don't like it, whatever that is... move on to the next one.Ask on the forum for 87V... maybe somebody has one they want to part with. I can guarantee you it will work like new and you will be very happy with it until you ready for.... whatever.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2019, 11:52:03 amI was happy to have bought one by 200$ new, the Fluke 87V just this month.But yes, before my last Fluke was the 54-II bought Used but in pristine condition by 120$ in 2008 (The guy who was selling didn't know what they had in hands, so basically accepted what I offered. Checked the serial no with Fluke and was not a stolen equipment) and in 2007 my Fluke 289 FVF Kit that I bought new from Fluke.It's true that they are expensive. Nowadays I would not give the amount I gave for the Fluke 289, not when I can find better used bench equipments by the same price I paid for the Fluke 289, but other that one sent back to Fluke because of the super capacitor (batteries discharging very fast) in 2013, it never let me down.They are good equipments, they last a lot, but if you can get it cheaper used get it. It will be work as good as a new one.Currently other brands do exactly the same or even better while asking for less.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: Ordinaryman1971 on August 30, 2019, 01:18:32 pmAnd my question is: Where?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 01:59:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2019, 01:52:39 pmThere’s a somewhat obscure website called “Ebay” on which you sometimes can score deals.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 02:13:35 pm
content: Yep that.RRP here is ~ £500 retail inc VAT. Paid £150 for mine inc VAT.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 02:16:42 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 30, 2019, 01:59:33 pmYou can also pay an awful lot of shipping+import if you live outside the USA.Even a half-price Fluke 87V would cost more than my brand new Brymen (and be less capable).

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 02:19:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2019, 01:52:39 pmI have pair 87V for sale(calibrated in Finland)Let me know if You interested

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 02:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2019, 02:16:42 pmDon’t buy in the USA then. If features were everything not a single Fluke would ever be sold.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 02:50:43 pm
content: Of course if you want quality stuffs, and you want it "relatively" cheap, also you're not a criminal, definitely this "passion" needs lots of patience, persistence and yeah, the hardest part ... luck.I've seen many members here in this forum had similar luck as mine on Fluke DMMs acquisition.Scored my 287s (plural) in 2013, shared my adventure while ago in this forum ->Fluke 287s acquisitionsOh, my 87V and 189 also used when I bought them, and no, I won't share the price as they're disgustingly low.

author: xmetal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 04:23:58 pm
content: I got my 87V back in October 2017 as I wanted a newer meter than my 1988 vintage Fluke 77. I find it a good solid meter.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 04:40:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 30, 2019, 02:23:05 pmStill this is the "EEVblog Electronics Community Forum", not the industrial technician or electrical workers forum. With an interests in more modern electronics, I find the Fluke lineup to be woefully lacking.They follow the money, like any other company and I doubt the electronics sector offers them much in sales. The products they offer that I have looked at have all done very well against my tests. The same is true for Brymen and personally I still prefer the BM869s over any other handheld I have looked at so far, disregarding cost.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 05:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 30, 2019, 04:40:04 pmI was also impressed when Brymen took an active interest in your meter destruction sessions, that they were confident enough to stand behind their product in public testing.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 05:40:13 pm
content: Problem with Brymen is, they distribute their product only at few handful of countries.At comparable class, importing a Brymen + import tax may close to the price of new Fluke it self, not counting there is no local official support at all as its imported.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 06:26:56 pm
content: What is the Greenlee equivalent of the BM869?

author: Vaiti
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 06:38:43 pm
content: Fungus posted it earlier.https://www.tequipment.net/Greenlee/DM-860A-C/Handheld-Multimeter/That is a certified version. Here is a cheaper non certified one.https://www.tequipment.net/Greenlee/DM-860A/Multimeters/?b=y&v=7760

author: frogg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 07:57:09 pm
content: Take what everyone says with a grain of salt. Especially people who are violently, abusively upset about the "defaults to AC on the mV and current ranges".Anyone who has such an extremist, visceral reaction to such a minor thing should not be swaying your opinion.Just buy the 87V if you feel its specs work for you. It's an excellent meter, along with many other DMMs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 08:10:53 pm
content: Quote from: frogg on August 30, 2019, 07:57:09 pmI never said I was even slightly upset about it, I just said that's where it happens (after OP asked).I don't own a Fluke 87V but I'm fairly sure an extra button press every time I want to measure A or mA would annoy me (I measure mA quite often).

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 08:32:36 pm
content: Quote from: frogg on August 30, 2019, 07:57:09 pmI hear what you are saying. I am not sold on the 87v. There are even other Fluke models like the 117 or 179 that might fit my needs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2019, 08:59:21 pm
content: Quote from: Vaiti on August 30, 2019, 06:38:43 pmLooks like the Greenlee branded meters are much more expensive than the original Brymens.

author: frogg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 01:31:12 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2019, 08:10:53 pmSorry Fungus, I wasn't talking about you my friendYou are a gentle fellow who just stated a valid point. It's other people that latched onto your valid point and turned it into a hateful diatribe totally disproportionate to reality that might turn people away from a decent meter. The EEVblog forums are no stranger to damaging hyperbole.One other thing that I think might be important to state is this: Benchtop DMMs might be a better choice depending on the application. I think far too often people start with expensive handheld DMM's when they should be starting with low-cost handheld DMM's and really think about purchasing an oscilloscope or a benchtop DMM.This is especially obvious when people start thinking they want 0.02% DC accuracy and real 600V CAT IV ratings in a little box. Not to say that those things don't exist, but if it ends up living on the bench all the time anyways...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 06:17:11 am
content: Quote from: frogg on August 31, 2019, 01:31:12 amI'm fairly sure it would annoy me though. If I had one.Quote from: bd139 on August 30, 2019, 07:21:29 amOn the dual display Brymens you can just set it to displaybothand it will remember that setting.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 08:39:40 am
content: Quote from: frogg on August 30, 2019, 07:57:09 pmI grew up with Fluke being best meters you could buy, both handheld and benchtop. They were answer to the question "What is the best meter?".They are not anymore. They are very good quality, and too expensive for capabilities.In last 10 years other manufacturers are going forward and Fluke discontinued best meters they had and just kept making those that have great profit margins.Fluke is not in the business of making best meters, it's in the business of making money from Fluke impeccable reputation.Danaher Corporation is milking the brand, that's all.If by chance 87V fulfills all your needs (feature wise), and you're willing to pay (if you can't find a deal and have to pay retail), you will get excellent basic meter with good precision and long term stability, electrically and mechanically robust, that will last for many years..OTOH, BM869S is pretty much more comparable to F289 without graphing capability (unfortunately even the size is comparable to F289). For 250€ in EU.It is also very robust (electrically even all the more so), and very stable. And very good screens on Brymen. Stupid backlight though, not that I care.To me it's a 75% of F289 capabilities for 250€ in EU.That is waay better deal than 450€ for F87VBrymen also has BM839 that is more directly comparable to F87V and is 150€.That's 3 for 1. I'm going to give one to my son, one to his friend that is going to school with him, and with the one I keep I will measure all the same as I would with F87V.That's all.. Those are simple facts and aren't meant to hurt somebody's feelings..

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 09:22:59 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2019, 06:17:11 amIt is painfully slow in dual display mode.

author: Vaiti
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 09:58:26 am
content: It has a 1.25/s update in dual doesn't? So yeah it is a bit sluggish. But it's there and you can get a quick overview without fussing with anything. If you need the 5/s mode at that point just turn the nob. But yeah this entire argument is about pressing a button so I hear you.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 10:09:00 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 31, 2019, 09:22:59 amOnly AC+DC RMS modes, in which case alternative on F87V is make AC measurement, note it down, enter it in calculator, move switch to DC, make measurement, note it down, enter that in calculator, and then get result. I'll take BM969 way anytime.But you are correct, for instance UT-181 has all three on display and is faster. It is better in that way.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 10:16:14 am
content: With the Fluke 87V I use an 87 and an 87V at the same time for that. And when those run out there’s an 8050A, 8012A still, plus all the meters on my 4 bench supplies

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 10:45:17 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 31, 2019, 10:16:14 amLOL... You win...Well that actually works even better with Brymen because you can buy 2-3 for the same money, and just do that...And again, I think we have too many meters....Naahh, few more would be nice....Where are the ping machines ?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 11:05:19 am
content: I’m considering another one at the moment as well

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 11:44:37 am
content: Nope, her majesty would simply kill me..I could get rid of something and replace it with something nicer, but she's clever, she knows what scope is, what siggen is, what meter is and why there are handheld and benchtop ones.She never said anything if I buy something new that enables me to do stuff I couldn't before. She knows I make money with that equipment.But if she takes a whiff that I might be COLLECTING stuff, 'cause, you know, TEA, well then "all bets are off".. "Bullet-Tooth" Tony comes to mind....And now I have to see Snatch again...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 11:52:06 am
content: I've learned the trick is to have so much stuff going in and out all of the time that the items that stick tend to not get noticedPlus also my spend is net zero from buying broken shit, fixing it and shifting it so there's no arguments!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 01:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 31, 2019, 11:52:06 amYou make the mistake of thinking logic is an argument. This doesn’t tend to be a logic driven discussion. Few are.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 01:38:00 pm
content: Did I say any of this is logical?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 02:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 31, 2019, 01:38:00 pm

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 02:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 31, 2019, 08:39:40 amActually 207€, direct from Brymen (+10€ shipping anywhere in Europe):https://brymen.eu/shop/bm869s/I can get two of those for the price of a Fluke 87V.Quote from: 2N3055 on August 31, 2019, 08:39:40 amFor 150€ there's also the one I bought: TheBM857S. It's still 500k counts but it's not dual display and it's quite a bit smaller then the big-ass BM869S. It still beats the 87V on just about every metric (counts, accuracy, etc.)I guess us Europeans do have a piece of test gear that's cheaper than in the USA.Edit: The picture on that web page is wrong, that's the BM859S. The BM857S doesn't have temperature it has diode an capacitance on separate switch positions. It's one of the reasons I chose it - a separate switch position for "LED test"!About the only sub-range selection I ever do in daily life is Ohms/continuity. Everything else has its own dial position (for me).No, I'm not sure why the diode symbol is in yellow. I guess they couldn't be bother to move it to the other painting machine.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 03:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 31, 2019, 01:38:00 pmBy saying that there wouldn’t be a discussion when there is a zero spend you definitely seem to suppose it’s a logic based discussion. Rookie mistake, that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 03:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 31, 2019, 03:18:53 pmThe correct way to approach it is to count her shoes.Does anybody with TEA have more than two pairs of shoes?(...and if so, how old is the pair that's "for weddings"?)nb. You won't win the argument but at least you can steer it away from the actual dollar price of whatever it was that just appeared on the workbench.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 03:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2019, 03:27:03 pmSteel toed shoes, running shoes, normal shoes, snow boots, wellies, wedding shoes. Plenty of shoes I’m afraid.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 04:30:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2019, 03:27:03 pmWhat are you, crazy?That is sure death...Right way is to time buying equipment just after she got some shoes.. So she can be galant and say "Of course you should buy that meter, you work so hard, you deserve to have stuff that you like..."

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 04:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2019, 03:27:03 pmI have one pair. What would I want with two? It would take money away from the DMM budgetEdit: +1 DMM since my last post

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 09:37:04 pm
content: It puzzles me why the Fluke 179 is for electronics, and the 87 for electricians, when the 179 has bandwidth of 1KHz and no uA range, and the 87V has a stated bandwidth of 20KHz.Actually measured with 3.7Vac signal, a bandwidth of 90KHz on the 87 (went crazy at around 100KHz and recovered util 120KHz), and 150KHz on 87III. I don't have an 87V.I like Fluke very much, for various reasons, but as things presents today, if it was to buy my very first good handheld multimeter I'd go for a Brymen. (it simply has more into it, with good specs, at a lower price)Later, maybe a good fetch for a 2nd hand Fluke at Ebay as a 2nd meter. Then I would have the Brymen to check if everything was in spec with the Fluke, and then it could be used as the regular multimeter for the regular jobs.For that 2nd hand multimeter I prefer the old school Fluke though, because the calibration is not stored in a memory, requiring all sorts of precise signal sources to be calibrated. The old models require only a good DC source (ex: 70 series) and some, an AC also (ex: 80 series), so an "hobbyist" calibration can be achieved for the purpose, if needed. But, that's just me...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 09:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: Mortymore on August 31, 2019, 09:37:04 pmI don't know who says that. Fluke certainly doesn't, they call it an "Industrial multimeter" which I understand as a "general-purpose multimeter that's robust enough to be used in industrial environemnts".To me an "electrician's meter" would be the 115/117 (and Fluke's web site agrees with that)I'm not sure what the hell the 179 is supposed to be (and neither is Fluke, their best description is "True RMS multimeter").

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 11:02:07 pm
content: @Fungus: I agreed with your "categorization"About the idea of the 179 being towards "electronics", may derive from the description of a combo kit 179/EDA2 that was once referred as "Electronics combo kit". But then, there was another 179/MAG2 "industrial combo kit".The 179 alone, is stated as "for field service or bench repair".Well... whatever!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2019, 11:42:50 pm
content: 170 series are used by the ham radio lot here a lot. Probably because they're cheaper than the 87V and sort of tied to the history of the old 70 series meters.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 02:34:48 am
content: Quote from: zelmo on August 30, 2019, 08:32:36 pmI had a 179 and it is an excellent meter: simple, down to earth and built like a war tank. Given that I intended to use it for electronics, I felt it was lacking in capacitance checker (1nF minimum resolution), bandwidth (1kHz) and the absence of a uA range. I added a BM857 (bought very cheap) that filled several gaps for my needs, but did not have the same robust feel as the 179.Fast forward a few years (and many added and sold meters) and my lineup nowadays is:- used Fluke 27/FM for the very dirty jobs outside, where resolution is not really needed but mechanical robustness is critical.- BM857 and U1273A as the preferred meters for electronics, with the U1282A as the next in line if needed. The Brymen was already discussed here. The U1273A/U1282A are excellent meters with a slight edge for the U1273A due to measurements with low input impedance (something I use frequently to prevent major disasters), auto-range speed and display visibility. These two have a dumb auto power off, where Fluke and Brymen sense the input variations and only power off if there is no variance for a given time. Also, the U1273A beeps at power on, which is annoying to me. Nothing that really detracts from them.- I have a Fluke 189 that works well and it is quite on par to my other meters. Given it is the oldest of the bunch, it may go up for sale soon.- I also used and tested the UT61E (excellent small meter for electronics), UT139C, DM91A and many others that are much cheaper and could get the job done given your main specs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 12:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 01, 2019, 02:34:48 amLack of a uA range instantly disqualifies it as an "electronics multimeter".Quote from: rsjsouza on September 01, 2019, 02:34:48 amI've got a 27/FM, it's a great meter. Resolution isn't great but accuracy is. Dave likes them, too. I think it's the meter that's appeared in more EEVBLOG videos than any other until Dave did his blue meters.Quote from: rsjsouza on September 01, 2019, 02:34:48 amNo arguments with the BM857, obviously, but don't you find the UXXXXA meters annoying, musically speaking?Quote from: rsjsouza on September 01, 2019, 02:34:48 amIf you're not bothered about safety/electrical robustness then the Chinese make some good meters for under $30. The 20,000 count Aneng I posted earlier measures about as well as a Fluke 87V. It has itsown thread.I've abused an Aneng 860B+ for nearly three years at home and Arduino club. My Brymen replaced it on the workbench a few months ago but it still works perfectly and goes with me when I go outdoors with a meter.(OTOH I had one of the super-popular Aneng AN08008s and it failed after exactly one trip to Arduino club. The selector went bad on the ohms range. They may be popular but they're definitely not built for traveling).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 02:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2019, 12:32:56 pmThe lack of a uA range definitely doesn't instantly disqualify the Fluke 179 as an electronics meter. Maybe if you'll only ever buy one meter but few of us do. In many other regards it's a lot like the 87V. The musical qualities of the UXXXX meters could be annoying to some but you'd need to have frayed nerves for it to be an issue.The beep can obviously be configured as you like. Either dealing with the sound or setting them to your wishes isn't quite as annoying as a backlight that turns itself off in some meters. It always seem to turn off at the least appropriate of times. Brymen is unfortunately one of the manufacturers who opted for this which I don't quite understand. It can't consume that much power.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 02:32:34 pm
content: You can usually turn off the musical features on the Keysight ones. The Keysight meter I owned, U1241C was pretty good but it had some terrible terrible annoyances with it that couldn't even be reliably configured out. Firstly the hold implementation was just shit even with configuration pokery. Secondly the thing was too complicated. It was quite difficult working out how to exit each mode combination etc.This is the video I did of how much I loved the hold versus the 87V:It's not a bad meter but they could have made it so much better.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 02:35:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2019, 12:32:56 pmHiDTM0660 based DMMs are so slowQuote from: Fungus on September 01, 2019, 12:32:56 pmWhat is for "Arduino club"? Electronic work is for Yours own meditation, isn`t it?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 02:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on September 01, 2019, 02:35:22 pmYes, but I preside over the local Arduino club (where one of Arduino's creators is a semi-regular visitor) so I need something to throw in my case and take along to meetings.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 02:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on September 01, 2019, 02:35:22 pmWhich is the DTM0660-based meter? The AN860B+?If it is then it's alongway from "unusable" IMHO.(apart from the min/max functions, whichareuseless on signals over 0.5Hz)

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 03:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2019, 02:56:01 pmWhat do You mean?DTM0660 slow and UNI-T built manual range DMMhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-for-2019-uni-t-ut89xd-meter-teardown/

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 05:45:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2019, 12:32:56 pmFortunately it can be turned off, but I did a short clip about the U1273A's musical continuity test.Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2019, 12:32:56 pmI was very close to buy either this or the 8009, but I really didn't have the guts to pay the price they wanted for them after their release (close to $30). Yours and others' experiences really did not give me the confidence of a robust meter. For me, the Mestek DM91A seems a better value for the money.Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 01, 2019, 02:27:48 pmI agree, especially after you get one of Dave's µCurrent Gold, which blows pretty much everything out of the water.Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 01, 2019, 02:27:48 pmI agree. If I want to blow batteries on a poor man's flashlight, I should have the option to do so. Fortunately I don't use the backlight too often.Quote from: bd139 on September 01, 2019, 02:32:34 pmBoth the U1273A and the U1282A can be configured for an auto hold just like the Fluke. The U1282A requires you to go to the setup menu, which is much less convenient, but the U1273A is done directly on the keys.My biggest beef with the U1282A is its autorange.Quote from: 001 on September 01, 2019, 02:35:22 pmThe Mestek DM91A is quite snappy on auto ranges. It has an abysmal continuity, however (but that does not have anything to do with the chipset).For the OP: Check user's HKJ excellent page about meter reviews:https://lygte-info.dk/info/indexDMMReviews%20UK.html(if you weren't scaried about the options, you would be now)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 07:16:38 pm
content: Between the color schemes, the sound effects, and the battery-guzzling, short-lived OLED displays, those Keysight DMMs seem more like video games than multimeters to me. I can't imagine a whole office full of people using them at once.Then there's the switches that break after 1000 turns...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 07:58:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2019, 07:16:38 pmCan we at least pretend this is an informative thread instead of “this isn’t the brand I’m a fanboy of so I must mount an all out assault on anything else”? We have enough of those already and they serve no purpose other than scaring newcomers away and stroking one’s own ego which somehow is derived from the brand you use. I’d like to at least pretend we can do better than the average 14 year old filled computer forum.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 08:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 01, 2019, 07:58:27 pmOK, the "sound effects" thing is my opinion but the selector switch breaking is a thing......and the forums are filled with people asking how tofixtheirscreens.Would you recommend those meters to anybody, given the alternatives?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2019, 08:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2019, 08:32:11 pmIt’s generally a matter of pros and cons and what matters to you. If there was one best brand we wouldn’t have endless discussions. Ever noticed how these eternal discussions are always about near equivalent alternatives where all options serve many people perfectly fine? Intel versus AMD. Windows versus Mac. Rigol versus Siglent. Fluke versus Keysight. The fact that differences are marginal is the only reason people can go to war over them because it would be a short lived discussion otherwise. They’re all pretty good and get the job more than done but people feel the need to cheer on “their” team to validate what’s essentially an arbitrary choice.We all know OLED has some pros and cons but as far as I know every model has an LCD equivalent. Buy the proven technology and you should have no issues with your screen. I can’t comment on the rotary switch as I’m not familiar with Joe’s methodology and how representative his result is. I do know Keysight provides excellent service with fairly priced spares. Fluke spares are stupidly expensive and as far as I’m aware Brymen doesn’t provide spares. Whether that matters to you I can’t say but I don’t mind recommending either brand in non-specific cases.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 04:54:41 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 01, 2019, 08:58:06 pmThis thread has revealed that my "team" may be a no-go in the USA. Brymen doesn't sell there and Greenlee are nearly as expensive as Fluke. Unless you want to squeeze every last cent then you might as well go with Fluke over there, you'll probably get better service/warranty.Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 01, 2019, 08:58:06 pmThe people asking how to fix their meters obviouslydidn'tknow that.Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 01, 2019, 08:58:06 pmThey also seem very upset about the price/availability of replacement Keysight screens.Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 01, 2019, 08:58:06 pmThe discussion starts here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1358834/#msg1358834Joe is very diligent and even tries to contact the manufacturers to discuss his results. The manufacturer's response is often quite revealing.Keysight has never responded, AFAIK.Brymen's response was to get actively involved in his testing (even though Joe lives in the USA).And FWIW: Fluke's meters all survived that test with no ill-effects whatsoever. Apparently Fluke does a similar test in-house.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 07:38:10 am
content: The price difference is about money for beer and coffee (for about one or two mounth)So lets buy all what You want for Yours personal reasons

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:08:24 am
content: Genuinely very sensible advice. Cut alcohol consumption, buy the Fluke. Can't loseAs for OLEDs, you'll notice the Keysight I bought didn't have an OLED screen. There are no OLEDs in my house at all. Horrid horrid things that can go to hell.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 12:13:38 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2019, 04:54:41 amBuy proven technology or risk surprises. The LCD meters seem to perform on par with those of other manufacturers. I can't say much about Joe's methodology and results. I can't tell how strictly he controls his tests and it seems he tests a single unit of each type. That makes it an interesting data point but obviously anecdotal. I don't think we've seen any user reports of issues so it doesn't appear to be a practical issue. Whether that's due to the methodology or because people simply don't rotate their switches 50000 times in real life is hard to say.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 01:27:56 pm
content: I started this thread being confused. Now my head is completely spinning.I was impressed with what was being said about Brymen and looked at them. Then I found out about this:Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2019, 04:54:41 amThe Fluke 87V is probably overkill for my needs but comments on here about some of the Chinese junk have me leery of going that route. I mentioned that my current meter is starting to have problems. The problem is that in order to get it to work I need to push on the selector dial a number of times for it to kick in. I don't want to buy something and have that problem again.Is there a DMM out there that is well made and has very accurate DC readings in the budget category? I really don't need many of the other features of the 87V.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 01:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 01:27:56 pmWelcome to the EEVBlog where every discussion about multimeters ends up like this. The same applies to oscilloscopes with slightly shifted brands and usual suspects. It's a bit tiring. What's "very accurate" in your book? Compared to a 6.5 digit meter a Fluke 179 isn't very accurate but compared to the average Chinese job it likely does better.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 01:39:25 pm
content: Regarding cost, the main reason I bought the Fluke 179 back then was that it was replacing a 25 year old multimeter (it was not a Fluke).For something to last that long, my reason is that the purchasing cost is not a factor at all. The total cost of ownership of the previous meter was almost zero (a few fuses and batteries replaced) and its initial high cost was amortized over 25 years. The same logic was applied to my decision to spend much more on the Fluke 179 than on other cheaper brands available at the time (Extech, Amprobe, etc.).Regarding OLED, the same logic applies: it brings benefits that I don't have on a LCD and its lifespan is amortizing its initial cost by the day. YMMV, though.

author: larsdenmark
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 01:48:37 pm
content: The 87V is a very nice meter and it will last your entire life.If you just need to be able to measuring DC voltages around 12 V then I would suggest getting a UNI-T meter (e.g. the UT61E is a 22000 count meter). Most of the UNI-T meters come with data logging included. All of their meters are (much) cheaper than the 87V so you can get two and e.g. measure current and voltage at the same time.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 01:50:18 pm
content: Quote from: larsdenmark on September 02, 2019, 01:48:37 pmWhat I don't like about Uni-T is that their quality and safety is all over the place. Some meters are decent and some aren't.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 02:10:28 pm
content: Also I'd like to say this right here: the UT61E is a piece of shit. I had two as backup meters about 3-4 years ago. On both of them, the cal drifted off significantly in different directions within 6 months. Also to note if you want one which the certification marks are not a complete steaming pile of cost minimisation lies, it costs as much as a bottom end Fluke and a lot more than a BM235.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 02:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2019, 01:38:57 pmIf true voltage is 12.50 VDC I want the meter to read something like 12.48 to 12.52, not 12.41 to 12.59.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 02:28:52 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 01:27:56 pmI contributed to that. That is par for the course on EEVBlog. Sorry.Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 01:27:56 pmMr Scram's question is very important here.If you can get by with 4000 counts and 0.5% accuracy, in the US you can have excellent and durable meters from Klein (Home Depot) that have good DC accuracy at a reasonable price. I tend to prefer their top of the line MM600 or MM700.In the US, the Greenlee is also an excellent option as mentioned here, although a bit more expensive. If you can get by with 6000 counts, the DM-200A is a good option as well.All other recommendations are the same.(I just saw your reply). You should be fine with the suggestions above.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 02:35:18 pm
content: Well, I just found TME.com so Brymen is back as an option. Now I just need to sort through their models to find what I need.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 02:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 02:35:18 pmIf you're on a tight budget you could go for the BM235 and if you can spend slightly more you could go for the BM257. The latter has a bar graph which is definitely worth considering and also has optional PC connectivity. If you want to go a bit more fancy the BM867S or the BM869S are good options. They're very complete meters, DC is very accurate and they're not too stupidly expensive especially compared to the big brand options. Any of those options are good solid and safe meters which offer great value for money. The most obvious drawbacks in my book are the lack of an autohold feature and the backlight turning itself off.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 03:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 02:35:18 pmI would start at Brymen's DMM page:http://www.brymen.com/Products2.html

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 03:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2019, 02:44:53 pmI was also looking at the BM857. Any major drawbacks on that model?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 03:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2019, 12:13:38 pmWe had a few short discussions about using a sample size of one and those posts were added to the FAQ. If a company has no quality control, the data is indeed anecdotal.The transient tests are fairly repeatable, which I have shown at various times. Looking back at this testing, there are certainly trends in the data as well. While as you point out, I may have only looked at one sample, I have looked at several Brymen and Fluke meters. These brands as a whole have done very well in my tests. It makes sense that once they understand how to design a good product, their designers will carry that throughout their product lines.The same is true for UNI-T. I've looked at several of their products as well and most have been damaged beyond repair from these same test. The only product I have of their that I actually tried to use was the UT210E DC mA current clamp. As I mentioned, the switch started to fail after about a year of moderate use.I think when I looked at the 50,000 cycles, I was trying to sort out a 30 year life. Obviously, I would have made several assumptions to come up with that figure (which were documented). What was interesting is when I spoke with Brymen and discovered they were running similar tests. If you spend the time to watch five or so minutes of the attached link, you will see Brymen's setup as well as me explaining in more detail about mine.In the case of Keysight using that glass filled plastic for their detent spring, I suspect I could run as many units as you want and the result would be the same. It was just a bad design choice on their part. I have no idea if they use other materials in their other products. I did try to contact them but they never responded. My channel is too small for them to care much about. It sounds like Gossen may have stepped up though.https://youtu.be/bs5n3a__Yq0?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQBK3lIiozNmw2TfLVCG1Rxu&t=393

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 03:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 02, 2019, 03:41:16 pmI've watched that video before and it seems you do a bit of autodetecting as the equipment sets up the experiment? It seems that would add a fair bit of variability between tests as the run time and torque is different between tests. Obviously a rigidly standardized test can favour one design over another too. I can imagine some designs being more susceptible to oblique loading or pressure put on the switch. You do mention taking enough time to dissipate heat which should at least eliminate most of that factor.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 04:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 03:25:32 pmThe BM859 seems to be hitting the sweet spot for me.Of course I will probably change my mind again by tomorrow.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 04:35:04 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 04:30:58 pmI'm not too familiar with that one. I think the dual display of the BM86Xs would win it for me.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 04:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2019, 04:35:04 pmIn real life what is the advantage of the dual screen? Are the digits on the large numbers the same size as on the single screen?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 04:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 04:45:17 pmMultiple measurements in one go. You can see something like AC frequency and voltage at the same time.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 04:59:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2019, 04:35:04 pmI have a BM857. It is an excellent and very sturdy meter, full of great features and very accurate. Given the 857 and the 867 are quite similar in price, the dual display is the only major difference between the two. Keep in mind it increases the size of the meter and gives it a curved shape. It is a matter of personal preference.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 05:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2019, 03:56:54 pmYes, as shown, the torque and end limits are determined by the software. The stepper's output shaft needs to be perpendicular to the meter. There is no downward force and the side loading is keep very low. I am trying to see how the switch by itself behaves. In the real world, the person has a firm grasp, pushes down, pulls up, turns them past the dead stops..... Lots of variables I wanted to try and remove. My tests also run non-stop as where in the real world, apparently people will spit shine their contacts every now and then.You can see that the fingers that turn the knob are very loose (on purpose). The knob is never placed in a bind nor does it ever reach a hard stops. I could have a 100Nm or torque available and it wouldn't make a difference. I limit the torque for the case where something goes wrong (the test runs over several days). I don't want the stepper motor to damage the meter. This never turned out to be a problem. The clamp holding the stepper motor and box securing the meters has never moved enough to cause any sort of bind or misalignment problem. The Labview code that runs it is predictable as well. It's not going into the weeds and trying to take over the world.Actually, my CEM was damaged when I loaned it out and the idiot tried to turn the knob past the dead stop (and succeeded). I assume these highly educated people are rare and did not consider running a test to determine how much torque was required to defeat the dead stops on the meters I tested.My test also doesn't require yellow sticky notes with obscure equations to try and decode the data.There was mention of putting the Toggle Bot back together to run some tests but I never heard anymore about it. I had assumed this was for the new meters. No time to run it? No product to sell, so no reason to run it? It did very poorly, so no reason to make a video about it? One thing you get with my tests is pretty much in your face data. I could care less how a particular meter holds up.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 07:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 02, 2019, 01:50:18 pmYep. Even with the same model number you can never be sure what will be inside. There's "Euro" versions and "Chinese" versions with half the components missing. I wouldn't buy one unless I could open it up first.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 07:53:13 pm
content: Yeah as I mentioned earlier the euro spec ones are more expensive than a Fluke. Going back to Rapid a few years ago, a China spec UT61E was £39 delivered and one from rapid with some certs was £130. Screw that!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:06:16 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 02:35:18 pmGood find! They're selling them at Euro prices there.Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 03:25:32 pmThe stand's a bit wonky.(although a strategic bit of string makes ahugedifference if you really want to use it)Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 04:30:58 pmThe 859 has more analog bandwidth than the 857, is a bit more accurate, and has temperature. It's similar features to the 869S but smaller, no dual display, "only" CAT IV 600V.If you haven't got anything else that measures temperature then it's a good option for 30 Euros more. Temperature's more useful than you think.Quote from: rsjsouza on September 02, 2019, 04:59:31 pmQuote from: rsjsouza on September 02, 2019, 04:59:31 pmThat, plus the 867 isn't 500,000 count.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:17:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2019, 08:06:16 pmNo, pretty sure they both are...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 08:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 29, 2019, 07:08:09 pmI have a hunch that now, they can't change it reasonably, because of big customers (e.g. military) who have maintenance procedures designed around a specific meter. Those big customers don't want to take the time and risk of retraining for new models, or risk having two different procedures side by side depending on which tool generation is on hand. (As far as I know, this is why Fluke even still bothers making non-TRMS meters like the 83V and 27 II, both of which seem to frequently sell for the same price or even higher than the superior TRMS 87V and 28 II.)Quote from: NoisyBoy on August 29, 2019, 07:35:57 pmAs others already said, no, it's the low pass filter. What I wanted to add is that the 87V does not have a LoZ mode at all. (If one needs a LoZ mode on most Fluke meters, you use theSV225 stray voltage adapter.)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 09:14:07 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 02, 2019, 08:17:25 pmOh, yes. The 867 is the baby 869.(...but somehow it's cheaper than the 857, very weird!)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2019, 10:10:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 02, 2019, 09:14:07 pmEconomics is weird...

author: electricMN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 12:04:04 am
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 02, 2019, 02:35:18 pmI bought a BM869s from them and the shipping was a very reasonable $9.90. Not bad at all considering they are in Poland.I later bought a BM257 also since I wanted something smaller for field use.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 08:11:26 am
content: TME are great. Their consignments arrive here in the UK usually before local suppliers do.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 07:34:01 pm
content: I had read some negative reviews on the 87V which I didn’t understand so I started this thread for clarification. Little did I know how generous you guys would be with your time and knowledge.Not only did you clear up the question about the 87V you gave me valuable information and suggestions regarding other DMMs. That allowed me to make an informed decision and I pulled the trigger on a BM859 from TME.I don’t know how long it will take for me to receive it as I have never ordered anything from Poland before. Whatever it takes it will be worth the wait as I paid about half of what the 87V would’ve cost.Thank you.

author: frogg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 07:51:40 pm
content: Quote from: Mortymore on August 31, 2019, 09:37:04 pmIMHO, that's because the Fluke 179 is not for electronics.Regardless of the 87V's stated bandwidth of 20khz, it's not for electronics either.Handheld DMMs are almost always compromises because they are battery operated and have severely limiting form factors.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 08:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 03, 2019, 07:34:01 pmWhat made you pick the BM859 over the BM869?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 08:43:36 pm
content: Quote from: frogg on September 03, 2019, 07:51:40 pmIt always surprises me to see people claim this and that meter aren’t for electronics when droves of people are using them for that exact purpose and seem happy enough.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 08:54:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 03, 2019, 08:43:36 pmDefine "electronics"...My personal definition says that anything without a uA range is useless.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 09:02:36 pm
content: Meanwhile, I have yet to do anything in electronics where I needed to measure µA. So that's certainly not a hard-and-fast rule.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 09:08:49 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 03, 2019, 07:34:01 pmCongrats. Glad it helped!FWIW, when people ask why people pay for Fluke (or Brymen, Gossen, Hioki, or any othertrulyreputable brand), the reason istrust and confidence. I have an 87V, and I havecompleteconfidence that the measurement on the screen is correct. I can't say the same for my better-on-paper Keysight U1252B, which has just enough quirks that I don't quite trust it. (And if it and the Fluke disagree, there's no question which one I believe.) It's weird how Keysight makes outstanding bench meters, but questionable handheld ones.Brymen is the only value-priced brand that seems to have earned itself an equivalent reputation in confidence. They haven't been around long enough to build a reputation for long-term durability (Flukes are famous for staying in-spec fordecades), but are doing well so far. So I think you have made a great choice.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 09:10:56 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 03, 2019, 07:34:01 pmCongratulations on your purchase! You'll love your new meter.I had ordered a few bits from TME and their service and delivery were quite good; I had received things within 7 days.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 09:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 03, 2019, 09:02:36 pmI use µA quite often, but all my meters (even the "for electronics" ones) have way too much burden voltage for 2.4V~3.3V battery operated systems. I use Dave's µCurrent gizmo for that.Quote from: tooki on September 03, 2019, 09:08:49 pmFunny how you say that; I also trust the Flukes and the Brymen I have. The U1273A is quite good in terms of features, but to me the U1282A really oozes confidence at the same level of the two above. Totally personal opinion, of course.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 11:18:17 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2019, 08:54:31 pmI know you're just janking chains here but the keyword is "personal". Few people will do uA measurements and nothing else.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 11:35:00 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 03, 2019, 08:39:03 pmLooking back at how I have used a meter in the past I couldn't think of one time I would have used the dual screen so I went with the slightly smaller form factor.

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 11:48:53 am
content: I need more help. I like to keep a digital copy of manuals on the computer. I can't find one online for the BM859S.Can someone tell me where to find it?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 11:57:45 am
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 04, 2019, 11:48:53 amWithout trying to be pedantic this was the first hit I got on "brymen bm859s manual".http://www.brymen.com/images/ProductsList/BM850s_List/BM850s-manual-text-preprint-r3.pdf

author: zelmo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 12:10:48 pm
content: Wow. I did a search but for Brymen BM859 manual and it didn't come up. Funny that the "s" would make a difference.I also looked at Brymen's website and couldn't find it.Thank you.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 12:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 04, 2019, 11:35:00 amMe too. I don't think I'm ever going to look at DC+AC simultaneously and I preferred the shape/size/look of the BM857.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 10:39:59 am
content: Quote from: zelmo on September 04, 2019, 11:35:00 amI definitely occasionally use AC+DC, or AC+Hz, or DC+duty cycle.I have a Keysight U1252B, and its second display is also nice when logging: it numbers each data point so you can scroll among them, and it can also use the second display as a timer when logging.