HaasoscopePro AFFORDABLE open-source open-hardware 2 GHz oscilloscope! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2024, 02:38:55 pm
content: You may recall the infamous Haasoscope, king of the worst schematics in history. (Dave did a 2 hour video based on it, just to explain how NOT to draw a schematic!)Well I've learned a bit in the past 6 years, and now I've designed the Haasoscope Pro, quite the upgrade - now with 2 GHz of analog bandwidth. Each has 3.2 GS/s, but (before you go all Nyquist on me), you can sync 2 of them, to get to 6.4 GS/s interleaved.All the designs are completely open-source and open-hardware ...https://github.com/drandyhaas/HaasoscopePro/It's now in pre-launch on CrowdSupply ...https://www.crowdsupply.com/andy-haas/haasoscope-proSign up there with your email to get updates as the project launches (next month?), and get first dibs on the introductory pricing for early backers.Let me know what you think... What could be added or changed or improved etc.! Still plenty of time to make modifications - it's at the working prototype stage, but probably a couple months from production.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 02:28:14 pm
content: Quote from: haastyle on November 30, 2024, 02:38:55 pmI'm certainly not going to spend 2 hours of my life on a yootoob vid, unless I know how I will benefit.The haasoscope-pro PDF showing that schematic might be comprehensible to you with the aid of your design tools. It isn't to me. For example, you have anunconnectedline with "NOFILT" on each end, ditto "NOSPLIT", and half of whatever is on P7 is missing, off the page.Taking account of that lack of attention to detail and comprehensibility, I have to make guesses about how much attention has been paid to signal integrity and DRCs on that complex PCB....

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 02:40:25 pm
content: I'm sorry you had trouble understanding the schematic. Most people have not had any issue with it. The Nofilt line is pretty clearly just a connection through the DPDT relay. It's even labeled "relay". If you have a suggestion for how to make it more clear do please share!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 03:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: haastyle on December 07, 2024, 02:40:25 pmNo, it is not labelled "relay". There is no obvious indication of what the wire is connected to. I'm sureyouknow, but that's not the point.How to make it clear is quite obvious: connect it, don't leave it flapping in the breeze. A flapping wire is exposing the netlist; netlists are for useinsideEDA tools. (Exception: simple power and ground where layout/decoupling is standard and not especially important.It isn't difficult, and the techniques were mature before I started in the 70s - and have been used ever since. If in doubt, have a look at any HP or Tektronix or Philips or Schlumberger or Fluke (etc etc) schematic.And there are these illegibilities.And you appear to confuse schematic symbols with PCB layout symbols. The schematic symbols should clearly indicate intent, e.g. inputs on left, outputs on right, control on top/bottom, related signals grouped together and separated from unrelated signals. All standard stuff.Hells teeth, I was doing this in the late 80s in a version of Orcad for MSDOS -no mouse input, all keyboard driven. It isn't difficult - and was actually easier than contemporary GUI/mouse drivenMentalMentor Graphics schematic and PCB EDA tools!

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 04:13:21 pm
content: Fair enough. I'll work on the text formatting in those few places. And I'll make nice looking schematic symbols at some point. It's much harder in Eagle than you'd think... Certainly harder than in the old days.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 04:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: haastyle on December 07, 2024, 04:13:21 pmI find that creating schematic symbols doesn't take long. I also find that appropriate symbols and fully interconnected nets are both aesthetically pleasingandhelp me think about my design. A similar phenomenon is drawing, say, non-inverting opamp amplifiers with the components in the "traditional" positions. The software analogy is to use standard Design Patterns popularised by the GoF.I can't comment on Eagle. When I last looked at Schematic/PCB tools a decade ago, I rejected Eagle on the grounds that it has a cliff-edge limit pins/components etc. Instead I chose something equivalent without limitations. I'm re-evaluating that now, and intend to look at KiCAD, since that has apparently improved significantly.Good luck with your kickstarter.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 07:01:55 pm
content: There is no way in efking hell I would try a schematic where components are not connected with lines. What is wrong with you people?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 08:11:13 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on December 07, 2024, 07:01:55 pmIt is distressingly common.My conjecture, without evidence, is that people with a software background dabbling with hardware transpose software habits into the hardware domain. Software design tools (IDEs) easily navigate text-only designs, and hardware design tools don't prevent it.Similarly I conjecture that schematics with right-to-left signal flows may have been created by people where their first written language flows in that direction.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 08:18:18 pm
content: [quote author=tggzzz link=topic=446637.msg5739821#msg573982Similarly I conjecture that schematics with right-to-left signal flows may have been created by people where their first written language flows in that direction.Interestingly, looking at some the 1920 era schematic circuit diagrams in Wireless World (on the worldradiohistory website), that convention was by no means generally observed.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 08:23:31 pm
content: Already fixed those easy issues...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 08:27:41 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on December 07, 2024, 08:18:18 pmFair point.I wonder if that was partly as a result of the systems having very few components and hence signal flow only being a vestigial concept, partly due to handing off drawings to specialised draftsmen who don't understand them, partly due to scrappy tools and laziness.At school I remember a math teacher complaining that it was difficult for her to read our Algol60 programs since they weren't indented consistently. Fair point, but editing a program on 5 channel paper tape with a 5cps teleprinter was a major painBack in the rubylith days, it was common for PCB draftsmen to refuse to move a track after they had placed it

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 08:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: haastyle on December 07, 2024, 04:13:21 pmIt's your project, but Eagle probably isn't the way to go for a project with open-source intentions and a hoped-for long life.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 08:34:20 pm
content: Agreed. Fortunately, I've checked that the eagle files can be imported easily into KiCAD. I'm not confident enough with them yet to add to the repository. I'm still just learning it. But at least I'm confident that the design can live on indefinitely.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 08:35:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2024, 08:11:13 pmWithout going into details of how and many ways it has been done through the years, the dead giveaway should be the "schematic diagram", as in a drawing that shows (in a graphical way) components and their interconnections.Printing out netlist is not a schematic.. Period.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 08:59:03 pm
content: Quote from: haastyle on December 07, 2024, 08:34:20 pmIt is easy, but the devil is in the detail.There isn't a 1:1 mapping of features identically between different CAD packages. KiCad does what it can, but it is up to the person doing the project porting to modify things such as footprints, to use KiCad features in a more normal manner than an automated project port can achieve.With a large project, that would be a big barrier for anyone who wished to make some changes. Just clicking to do the automated port unfortunately isn't all that helpful, since anyone can do that.Anyway, I have to say, that's still just a detail, the more major issue is indeed the schematics are very hard to follow. EAGLE does allow for logical symbol layout. FPGA and other large pin-count devices can be split up into separate sub-components, for instance, the supply and config pins could have their own symbol (logically arranged with supply pins on top, ground at bottom, etc). This is achievable in EAGLE.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 10:17:41 pm
content: really impressive project.Am I right in thinking the heart of the trigger engine, is in the command processor?https://github.com/drandyhaas/HaasoscopePro/blob/main/adc%20board%20firmware/command_processor.veg. taking the adc's LVDS/serdes stream, after converting/encoding to AXI?this then controls buffering?I should watch the video.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 04:39:13 am
content: Thanks. Yes, the (simple, for now) trigger starts there:https://github.com/drandyhaas/HaasoscopePro/blob/3a6c011b44fdada14aa9471a597ff9cbdba43bc0/adc%20board%20firmware/command_processor.v#L399The lvds inputs are converted to an array of 40 12-bit samples per lvds clock cycle, and the trigger acts on those. When the trigger occurs, the circular input buffer is frozen and waits for readout.There's no fancy video yet, but I have been writing about the project here:https://hackaday.io/project/200773-haasoscope-pro

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 05:57:05 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2024, 08:11:13 pmYou definitely have something there, regarding my own habits (when using EasyEda online schematic and PCB editor).When designing a circuit, I don't care about the placement of the tracks, and net labels make them invisible and thus reduce my cognitive load. I do like to try and keep each modular unit fully connected –– any group of components that perform a specific task, that I can replace with something else, when refactoring the schematic or minimizing the BOM cost –– and find OP's schematic scattering into individual separate ICs extremely confusing, too. If a module does not fit, just use larger sheet. (At least EasyEda and KiCad support this; I don't see why any schematic editor wouldn't.)For example, inthis designI have the three connectors on the left, the power supply (and supply enable) stuff at top, PWM level shifting circuitry at bottom center, and tachometer level shifting on the right. This way I can think of each one in isolation, and this helps me manage things. (Iknowthe schematic could be better, too.)It is much easier for me to read this kind of a grouped/modular schematic, than one where everything is connected via visible wires. (And I still occasionally mix a bus with a single wire with lots of branches. So, I do expect this to change if I work with schematics enough.) When I switch to PCB design, I use the ratsnest option (that shows which pads/wires need to be connected together with directly connected visual lines and highlights), so I don't need to think about routing at the schematic design phase. This really helps me get things going, step by step.I suspect that people like myself with software backgrounds probably find this modularity easier than fully connected schematics, simply because they don't have the experience to quickly comprehend and mentally modularize fully connected schematics. I do assume/believe that those with lots of EE schematic capture experience do that kind of modularization without thinking about it or even realizing they do it, because when I look at DiodeGoneWild or BigClive explaining their reverse-engineered schematics, their grouping of the components and parts follow mine; and when a component has multiple purposes, it tends to throw them off too (as such multipurpose components do not fit cleanly into a modular model of the circuit).Note: I'mnotclaiming any of this is right/better/correct!I'm just explaining the reasons I have for doing it that way, and how I believe my reasons doing it that way relate to both hobbyists with software backgrounds, and those with proper experience in schematic capture. The only thing I ask is forgiveness for not having the skills yet to do it right, as my skills are still barely enough to get it done this crude way. Suggestions for improvement are gold, but seeing the deficiencies said to be"distressing"is alarming. I definitely agree that having inputs on the left, outputs on the right, makes it easier formeto understand even the modular schematics with lots of net labels; as does having positive voltages above and ground and negative voltages below. I'm just not skilled enough yet to achieve all those desired goals! (So I assume neither are the other myriad hobbyists.) In the meantime,I do still show my scribblings, although I want to point out that their crudity and my willingness/hopefulness in receiving criticism and learn from my mistakes is why they're all in Public Domain / CC0-1.0.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 11:43:16 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on December 08, 2024, 05:57:05 amI think that is fine.Separating independent sections is natural, and becomes a requirement in a large diagram, one section per sheet. The PSU is a classic example of that.Each of your sections has an independent "signal flow", so there is no need to mentally insert the connections. By contrast the OP splits outtinysub sub sections whichobscuresthe signal flow, leaving reader to wonder what the signal flow is: where does it start, where does it end, and have I spottedallthe connections.A connector that has a large number of logically unrelated signals is a classic pain point. The way to think about it is to consider a reader starting at the connector, and trying to work out which bit of the circuit deals with each signal. It is normal to have large connectors shown as a single component, with labelled wires coming out.In good schematics there will be an annotation indicating "the other end" of the wire. Sometimes that will be "to Sheet5 Q1" (and the other end of the wire reverse labelled "to Sheet1 Conn6". Other times there will be a "top level" schematic showing all interconnections between subcircuits, a bit like the main() function in a C program.QuoteAgain, that's fine - provided each wire is named where it enters/exits the bus. All the reader has to do is follow the bus to find out all the connections. Classic examples are address busses, data busses, and control busses (R/W, CS, etc).QuoteAgain, that's perfectly standard.Sometimes it is known when creating the schematic that certain PCB rules will have to be followed, e.g, differential pair matched length or impedance control. With simple tool for small designs, those constraints can be simple text annotations. In complex tools for big designs where a different person does the PCB layout, such properties can be entered into the schematic, and the tool will (hopefully) ensure the PCB layout person has complied.In the cases where, say, several signals are individually buffered before going off-board (e.g. a control bus with inverters), the schematic designer will wire them up without knowing the detailed PCB layout. That may cause an unnecessarily tangled set of wires, and it is perfectly reasonable for the PCB person to swap pins. Such swaps are thenautomaticallyback-annotated into the schematic.QuoteThere I disagree. "Coupling and cohesion" are the same in hardware and software. The question is how to think about and denote that.Analogies are always dangerous, but consider each small subsection being a function. It would be ridiculous to have multiple source files and to scatter each function across the different files. It makes much more sense to gather related functions into, say, a (singleton) class with each class being in a separate file.QuoteReverse engineering is, arguably, irrelevant. When you are creating a design and schematic, that is forward engineering.Your examples are more like someone looking at machine code and trying to work out what's happening. That's a very different task with very different objectives.QuoteAll just fine and understandable.Techniques that aren't a problem with small designs, don't scale to large designs. That's why you can't use BASIC for large programs.Fundamentally it is a matter of understandability and good taste. An engineer ought to be able to comprehend the former, but the latter cannot be taught!

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 01:39:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2024, 08:11:13 pmThat conjecture is just that - a conjecture. There is nothing in software that would lead one to draw a schematic like that - I have 25 years of sw work under my belt, one would think that if that was the case, it would have manifested itself on the schematics I draw.It is crappy Youtube tutorial videos done by people not knowing any better and newbies who learn from those videos (reading is soo out these days) cargo-culting what they see without understanding (labels? check. big fat boxes around every component? check. no crossing wires? check! And don't ever ever draw right angle traces!) because nobody actually explains the principles behind drawing a schematic in those videos.That has little to do with software and everything with the low quality crap being published everywhere, with the major platforms incentivizing the 10 minute "bite-sized" content catering to people with an attention span of a fruit fly. So for a beginner it is a tall order to expect that they will be able to filter the crap out and recognize what is good to copy and what isn't. I remember my own surprise and disillusionment many moons ago when I have discovered that not every circuit published in a magazine (that was long time before we had internet or web) actually works or is a good design ... It is on paper in a magazine, so it has to be true/good, right? And that was an actual paper magazine that had an editor and publisher and required photos of the working assembled circuit in order to publish it.These days anyone can publish anything - be it an electronic tutorial or a recipe how to cure covid by drinking bleach.It is actually quite telling that the OP has still problems drawing a decent schematic, despite Dave actually redoing the first version for them for free, including all the tips and explanations:https://youtu.be/R_Ud-FxUw0gWhen people get feedback and still ignore it, vote with your feet.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 02:57:49 pm
content: This new schematic is pretty good. Far better than the original Dave used as an example. Is it perfect? No. But I consider myself to have made impressive progress. And it's not done yet. Let's work together and be constructive please.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 07:16:44 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2024, 08:11:13 pmRight, it seems to me too that the rise of this poor practice started with mass availability of inexpensive FPGAs, many FPGAs projects appeared that had interesting software features but shockingly bad schematic diagrams like this one and abysmal PCB designs.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 07:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: haastyle on December 08, 2024, 02:57:49 pmWe don't know anything about you beyond your statement "Professor of Physics by day and open-source/open-hardware tinkerer by night", so we can only judge based on what we can see in github.To get microwave circuits like this working reliably (i.e. no temperature / tolerance / pattern sensitive infelicities) requires more than mere "tinkering"Having a quick look at your PCB, you don't mention your stackup, the analogue input circuits don't seem to minimise track length, and I wonder if things marked 50ohm in the schematic really are 50ohm.Personally I wish you luck with your kickstarter, but I wouldn't think of investing until you demonstrated it working - preferably plus a review of the prototype by an independent engineer.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 09:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 08, 2024, 07:34:29 pmVery legitimate concerns!I am writing more about the project over here:https://hackaday.io/project/200773-haasoscope-proThe stackup is 10-layer, sig1 gnd sig2 gnd pwr1 pwr2 gnd sig3 gnd sig4. Impedance controlled pcb of course. I made test boards and tested track impedance with a nano vna plus.It definitely works. I've tested with a Leo Bodner pulse generator with 40ps riserime, and I see about a 200 ps risetime. I'm fine tuning the multi board oversampling now, which will get up to 6.4GS/s, at which point I'll be able to test the bandwidth more accurately.There will certainly be videos, plots, etc demonstrating the performance before the project launches next month. At the moment we are just in pre-launch.There will also be independent reviews. Hopefully even one from Dave again.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 01:03:19 am
content: Quote from: haastyle on December 08, 2024, 02:57:49 pmDamn the anklebiters, full speed ahead. That schematic is a hell of a lot better than what they'll get from Keysight, Tek, R&S, or Siglent.The best answer to the critics is a nice demo video. Sounds like you're almost there.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 01:23:02 am
content: Quote from: haastyle on December 08, 2024, 09:51:27 pmOh... good.You are further ahead than I realised.We look forward to seeing the results

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 03:17:06 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 08, 2024, 11:43:16 amRight. In EasyEDA, selecting different colors for different wires is very easy, so for some examples I've used the wire color to denote different types (power, digital, analog, high-frequency analog video), just to try and see if it makes the schematics easier to understand. (I'm not sure that worked.) But I definitely understand what you're saying.Quote from: tggzzz on December 08, 2024, 11:43:16 amThis is the exact reason why I started putting labels on the connectors, instead of drawing wires to the connectors in the schematic: when doing the PCB in EasyEda, it makes it trivial –– just a few clicks –– to change the pin order. With wires, it gets messy. There is now a pin order/editing tool, where one can remap the pins of a component in the schematic editor, but it is way more complicated to use than just moving the net labels around.I'm reassured to understand that what I'm doing is only amateurishly wrong, and not painfully wrong, if you know what I mean. That is to say, what I'm trying to achieve is normal, I'm just not doing it very wellyet. If not on the exact correct path, then at least nearby, instead of wandering randomly in the woods. This is kinda-sorta important, because learning is easier than un-learning bad habits, and I was really afraid the functional separation of schematics was wrong.I do believehttps://github.com/drandyhaas/HaasoscopePro/blob/main/adc%20board/haasoscope_pro_adc_fpga_board_schematics.pdfis split into too small parts, and would rather see modular units instead of component-level splitting. (I actually have seen similar issues in source code, having individual functions split into separate files, instead of functional "modules". I believe all affected developers had Java (applet) backgrounds, as the web Java applet environment required file name and applet class name to match, IIRC.)As an enhancement suggestion for OP (for at least the main ADC board), I believe it would be nice if each input channel was on the same sheet, spatially grouped showing the preamp/first input stage (left), gain sections, and actual ADC (right). It would allow others with experience in precision/high-frequency ADC designs see the key scheme and details at once, and suggest enhancements. If it means that sheet does not fit an A4/Letter, no problem: use as large a schematic sheet as is needed.Quote from: Bud on December 07, 2024, 07:01:55 pmAbsolutely nothing: we just don't know better.That's the thing: if you do not tell us what and why we are doing wrong,andtell us how we can do better, how the flying fuck should we know how to do things right? We're not telepaths, and creative analytical engineer-type humans do not learn by simply emulating others: we investigate, examine, and are not satisfied by justwhatorhow, but also exactlywhythose particularwhats andhows should be used. You know, the basic science and engineering stuff.If you cannot or do not want to do it yourself, you can still find a book or video or blog or forum where one can learn how to do better, and just point us that way. If you don't want to do that either, then you're just commenting on how stupid wobbly toddlers look when they're trying to learn to walk, and demanding they stay hidden until they've learned to walk, so they won't upset your sensitive sensibilities with their wobbly toddling.Quote from: tggzzz on December 08, 2024, 11:43:16 am"Good taste" is based on intuitive (statistical) analysis of human responses to the stimuli at hand, so while it indeed cannot directly be taught, even analytical barrel-grown hick potatoes like myself can be shown how todevelopone. The trick is to point out the things achieved and things avoided when applying good taste. The rest is left to the innate human pattern-recognition abilities.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 10:19:38 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on December 09, 2024, 03:17:06 amNope. That's "common taste", which is oftenappalling.It is also how ML works, which produces grammatically correct bullshit. That's what many people do, and many people are fooled into believing the bullshit is correct.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 06:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 09, 2024, 10:19:38 amEh, that dismissal isn't going to flyfor much longer.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 06:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on December 09, 2024, 06:20:06 pmWe'll see. Even stopped clocks are right twice a day. One swallow doesn't make a summer. Etc.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 02:46:17 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 09, 2024, 10:19:38 amNo, because the responses involved are thelong termkind, not theimmediatekind that LLMs achieve. The difference is in the understanding of the whole complex of the human responses, especially associations invoked by the selected stimuli, instead of simply blindly picking one that achieves the immediately desired result.As an example, consider thegood tastein parallel wire distances and locations in schematics. There are two aspects: functional, helping understand the schematic; and artistic, being pleasing to the eye. Both can be scientifically and mathematically/statistically explored, although such investigation suffers from combinatorial explosion of complexity due to the nature of human visual processing. (It is that complexity, trying to assess a high-dimensional matrix of coefficients, that means that useful results are easier to obtain using carefully controlled examples on unsuspecting set of human victims, and testing their derived understanding of it.)(I've done research into visualization, after having worked with a couple of graphics/visual artists with user interfaces. Specifically, I looked into how to focus and control the information conveyed by atomic and molecular simulation results, in three fronts: human visual processing, visual arts, and practical experimentation on unsuspecting victims (observing and investigating their understanding of the system based on the image). Atoms are not spherical marbles, and bonds are not well described by sticks, you see. I discovered thatreduction of visual cueswas the only effective way (outside of pure art well inside the combinatorial complexity explosion domain); that cel shading and adjusting outline thicknesses and shadow darkness allowed best control with least amount of intuitive but incorrect inferences and assumptions, compared to the exact same view rendered using photorealistic spheres.)Quote from: tggzzz on December 09, 2024, 10:19:38 amYes, but the underlying reason is that they pick easiest and most immediate results/understanding matching their internal ruleset, instead of logically and rationally examining things.It is also a big reason in why some people –– both simple people, and very highly intelligent people –– associatejargonuse with domain knowledge.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 03:01:24 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 09, 2024, 06:28:28 pmThe funniest thing in all that is howself preservation(observed even in bacteria), now that they discovered that LLMs are capable of outright lying to preserve themselves, is taken as a sign of General Intelligence. Just shows you how even the best domain experts can be blind to a sufficiently complex system. Just like in the last industrial revolution, when the most advanced minds fully believed human-shaped robots performing better than actual humans in industrial production would be just a couple of decades away...There is definitely merit in trying to avoid delusions of self-grandeur, no matter how good you are in your domain, because there is so much more outside that domain.Thisis the scientific basis of whypersonal humilityalways makes sense. At least internally. Some stupid people easily confuse it with subservience and inferiority.(Although this is a sidetrack and not directly connected to the thread at hand, it is important to the aspect of what and how to do better. Even in absurdly well funded domains like LLMs (and a couple of decades ago, anything related tonano), a significant fraction of bleeding-edgescientificresults are later found to be bunk, requiring either significant corrections or withdrawal. In physical sciences, it's currently about 25%. In specific subfields in medicine, we're already over 50%. Emulating only things that have demonstrated they work, when you understand why they work, does not suffer from that. But it requires help from the experienced ones; help, and not just derision.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2024, 11:05:13 am
content: There have been many comments in this thread about schematic diagrams, what works and what doesn't.Here's an example of a schematic that is well thought through and easy foranother personto follow and understandhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/high-precision-constant-current-circuit/msg5743175/#msg5743175See the PDF attachment.Note that the post after that is complementing the author. I do that too.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2025, 06:39:27 pm
content: This would really need a better frontend for me to be interested.Just like any regular scope from 1mV/div to 50V/div or so, (without the 1:10 probe).The frontend for this is a bit too limiting on both ends of the spectrum. for me. In practice it may be "wide enough" for most applications, but for a generic scope like instrument, I expect the same wide input sensitivity range. For some reason all DIY scopes fall short in this area. Many hours are spent to make a quite nice project, the frontend for the ADC is neglected.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2025, 07:45:09 pm
content: Thanks for your feedback! The Haasoscope Pro is aimed at the hobbyist market and will be about 10x cheaper than other scopes with comparable bandwidth. It's impossible to match all the specs of a professional scope at this price.That being said, I think the input range comparison is not as bad as you think. First, the Haasoscope Pro will actually go down to 4 mV / div (not 8, as currently listed on the CrowdSupply site). And considering that it's a 12 bit ADC, you do get an extra x16 of "digital zoom" compared to an 8-bit scope. Really it's less than that because of noise, which limits the ENOB. But still, it's on par with 0.5 mV/div of an 8-bit scope like the Siglent SDS6204A, a comparable 2 GHz scope, which goes for $9,999.The other end of the voltage range, 0.8V/div, is on par with the SDS6204A and other scopes as well, at least for the 50 Ohm (high bandwidth) path. They almost all have min sensitivity of 1 V/div in 50 Ohm mode, and an input limit of 5 Vrms.I agree that I'm not matching the min sensitivity of 10 V/div on 1M Ohm mode (more typical than 50 V/div I think). It probably could be added, with some switchable attenuation. But then that requires extra input protection too. So it's a significant extra development time, and some extra BOM. With a x10 probe it will go to 8V/div. Personally I have rarely needed a larger range than that.

author: parawizard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 06:19:47 am
content: Hi! Cool project. Are you going to be integrating with nglscopeclient? I'd love to see collaboration there. I really hate the commercial time based licenses, DRM and stuff. I could be into using this. Thanks

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 01:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: parawizard on January 31, 2025, 06:19:47 amThanks for your interest. There's no solid plans to support nglscopeclient yet. But of course it would be possible. Help from someone else more familiar with it would make it easier. At first glance, it looks like the main strength of it is its protocol decoding and eye diagram type things.The current Haasoscope software is a relatively simple python Qt program. Easy to install, easy to use, and easy for others to understand / contribute to.

author: parawizard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2025, 04:27:01 pm
content: Nglscopeclient has a lot of features already. With the amount of bandwidth on your new hardware it could be really interesting. It also has a decent list of hardware support including the Thunderscope project

author: parawizard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 06:20:49 am
content: You may even get some interested people in writing a driver if documentation is available and you provided a unit or something. Maybe Andrew Zonenberg himself would be interested?

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 01:40:51 pm
content: Doing a YouTube Livestream next week on CrowdSupply with Q+A, demos, etc...https://www.youtube.com/live/iFVRcHPmOKk?si=uV00BP1ANXJQ_4-S

author: kelemvor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 07:58:00 pm
content: Looks great! Any plans for integration with Sigrok/PulseView?I’ve seen a lot of mentions about it being “affordable.” Any ballpark figure on what that actually means? My best scope is 350MHz, and it set me back $1,000—plus another 33% for options like the logic probe.A quick search shows existing 2GHz scopes starting around $12,000, so "affordable" could mean $10K to some. Personally, if it’s much over a grand, it’s likely out of my reach.That said, before Jan Käberich created the LibreVNA, the idea of a 6GHz VNA for $500 seemed impossible—so who knows?What’s the current thinking on pricing?

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 08:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: kelemvor on February 19, 2025, 07:58:00 pmNo plans for sigrok, pulseview, ngscopeclient, etc for now, but of course this could come later.Yeah, I also have an MSO5074 hacked up to 350 MHz I got for $999. 😉Exactly - you can't get into the GHz range, let alone 2 GHz, for under 5k (especially after including the active probe), unless you want some used beast from eBay with a floppy drive. I'm aiming to keep the scope plus probe under $1000. That will get you 3.2 GS/s, enough for a bit over 1 GHz, on one channel. To get to 2 GHz, you'll need 2 units, so about $2000, sorry. But that's still far under 10k. Hopefully it'll still be a useful price point and option for many people.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 01:30:56 am
content: Project is now live on CrowdSupply...https://www.crowdsupply.com/andy-haas/haasoscope-proThanks for your support!

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 02:33:59 pm
content: Very nice!Probably you mean 1e6 ohms?Looking forward to a nice 12 GHz sampling scope next!John

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 03:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: JohnG on February 26, 2025, 02:33:59 pmYes, 1MOhm! Thanks for catching the typo.I know you're joking about 12 GHz, but yeah, that would be exponentially harder, and exponentially more expensive, given the currently available technologies. Unfortunately, I think ~2 GHz is going to be the limit for "affordable" scopes for quite a while.

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 03:51:41 pm
content: Actually, not joking. I have an 11 GHz sampling scope that was purchased from IBZ electronics (now defunct, as far as I can tell). It was ~$1k at the time. However, it works intermittently, and I can't get support any longer. I don't have the time or expertise to deal with it. In addition, the software is not controllable, so automated measurements, etc. are not able to be done. In the end, my company purchased a 6 GHz real-time scope. It's great, but there are things I'd like to look at with TDR and 6 GHz does not give me the timing resolution necessary.Here's link to the manual of the scope I mentioned, but the company seems to be out of action. An open source version of something like it would open up a space that is not readily accessible.It is not a real-time scope, but rather a sampling scope, and this is why it can be done at lower cost. There are, of course, drawbacks to the method, i.e. it only works on repetitive waveforms being the major one, and if you want to trigger on and view the same waveform, it generally requires a delay line of > 10 ns. There are ways around this as well, such as random mode sampling. This is described in great detail in a book from Tektronix called "Sampling Oscilloscope Circuits" by Mulvey et al., published in 1970.I'm just planting a seed, by the way.JohnEdit: link to DS800 manual:https://www.fastsampling.com/Products/DS800E/DS800Manual17.pdf

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 04:52:18 pm
content: Ah, yes, if you are talking about non-realtime sampling, only good for repetitive signals, that's much easier.This 6 GHz model is really nice and only ~$2k:https://www.sjl-instruments.com/An open-everything version like that could certainly be less than $1000.Still, getting to 12 GHz would be tougher - the ADCs themselves don't have bandwidth above ~8 GHz. So you'd have to start splitting off the bandwidth, say 0-6 GHz and 6-12 GHz, to two different ADCs, using a superheterodyne approach, and then recombining digitally. Sounds fun, but challenging!

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 05:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: haastyle on February 26, 2025, 04:52:18 pmI always thought that higher bandwidth (than the ADC's can sample) is achieved with parallel ADC's with interleaved sampling. Was I wrong all this time ?

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 05:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: rteodor on February 26, 2025, 05:09:20 pmInterleaved sampling can get you higher sample rate. But if the analog bandwidth of each ADC is only 8 GHz, for instance, you'll be limited to that no matter how many ADCs you interleave. You have to "downconvert" higher frequencies such that they fall within the analog input bandwidth of each ADC.

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 12:30:39 am
content: You don't need high speed ADCs for a sampling scope. You need to have a S&H that can capture at high speed and with low jitter. Each sample can then be stored and digitized or displayed (if it is an older sampling scope) during hold times. This is the standard approach for sampling scopes, or at least it was for many decades.The SJL scope is also nice and has good capability, but it works in a different way than a traditional sampling scope. My main waveforms of interest (pulses with complex high frequency details at a relatively low pulse frequency) result in long acquisition times and are not a good fit for the sampling method used. I think the method they use may be much better for signals with higher repetition rates, like digital signaling, but I cannot vouch for that.Yeah, 12 GHz is still a stretch, though. It would be all about implementing the sampler.John

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 05:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: JohnG on February 27, 2025, 12:30:39 amThis article has some nice info on that technique. It does seem doable. But, not easy, and not cheap - the S&H chip is ~$800 alone.https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/industry-articles/extending-bandwidth-x-band-frequencies-a-track-and-hold-sampling-amplifier/https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/HMC661LC4B?qs=3izLlwrMQ7kw9%2F%2FCACG%252Bog%3D%3D

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 07:39:20 pm
content: If multi-GHz measurements ever becomes of interest, I strongly suggest looking at the old reference in my earlier post. The approach is far different and as best as I can tell (and I am not an expert), should not require expensive ICs for the sampling. They were reaching multiple 10s of GHz in the late 1960s and early 1970s using diode-based sampling gates followed by relatively slow analog circuitry.However, I don't want this to derail this thread or distract from the excellent work you have already done, which has a much wider audience and much greater utility. Sampling scopes tend to be pretty niche. Maybe save it for a future challenge if you get bitten by a multi-GHz bug.Cheers,John

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2025, 01:22:20 pm
content: FYI - these have now shipped. You can get one from CrowdSupply or Mouser.https://www.crowdsupply.com/andy-haas/haasoscope-pro/updates/good-news-products-have-shipped-to-our-distributor

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2025, 11:11:28 pm
content: I have my video up on the Haasoscope Pro and thought it's best to add to this existing thread from the designer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2025, 07:19:52 pm
content: Nice to see it in action. I don't think you should consider this a general purpose oscilloscope. I also find the trigger jitter to be excessive (even with the trigger stabiliser on); that kind of kills it for doing precise time related measurement like clock jitter or plain time intervals at the picosecond level. I also agree us UI looks pretty basic and non-standard compared to a regular oscilloscope but you can also control the HaasoscopePro from Ngscopeclient which isn't perfect but has a more sensible user interface. The combination gets you well into the realm of functionality you'd get a high end (real) Lecroy scope with all software options enabled.BTW: there are passive probes for HF use. Like the Tektronix P6156 lo-Z probe (<1pf >3.5GHz bandwidth) so you don't need to use active probes at all for probing single ended signals.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2025, 07:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 24, 2025, 07:19:52 pmIt's a work in progress still, but it's moving quickly. I've already improved the trigger stabilizer to account for the sinc resampling, which then makes for a really stable waveform. See my latest video here:https://youtu.be/-Z1cL_SuVu4?si=MlaSkttWPcSCrbM8&t=300I like ngscopeclient, but personally I find that user interface LESS sensible or intuitive. But yes, having that as an option is great.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2025, 08:43:46 pm
content: Had not seen this. First, hats off to haastyle. Very impressive project.QuoteTaken from:https://www.crowdsupply.com/andy-haas/haasoscope-proThis comment seems misleading as there have been lower cost alternative available. For those interested in looking at high speed signal, another member SJL-Instruments also produced an 4-channel that a couple of us reviewed. Current cost is under $3000. It's has a 1 ps time resolution and 12-bit vertical resolution.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pocket-sized-6-ghz-1-tss-et-scope/Showing the Gigawave 2400 measuring an old Tektronix pulser at 35ps with about a 500fs drift.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/msg5542619/#msg5542619One interesting point about the Gigawave is that the interface is open sourced. If you read through that thread you will find I rolled a lot of my own custom software while evaluating it. It would be easy to integrate it as part of a larger automated test.Because of how the scope works (it's a statistical wonder), it's not a general purpose scope by any means. And it fits in your shirt pocket!!Another member, lasmux, also now offers a DC coupled active probe which is also fairly inexpensive.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/12-ghz-active-probe-project/

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 12:16:42 am
content: Watch the video and gave it a big thumbs up for your pain and suffering.

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 03:54:37 am
content: Hey Dave,FYI, this is hardly the only USB-C project that requires that you power it first before plugging in the USB-C cable. I have a USB-C to HDD adapter that requires the same ordering of inputs when connecting.I hope it helps,BSL

author: alex_
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 08:35:22 am
content: Thanks Dave for the painful 5 minutes mailbagit made a great videoI saw this device crowdfunded at the same time as the 4-channel thunderscope. I am glad I supported the later one considering how much DIY the Haasoscope is.I recently saw the emails that the Haasoscope had shipped, and available on Mouser for direct purchase so I thought it would be finished and usable.Your painful experience shows us that this is definitely not the case, and points all the issues if you think you are buying an oscilloscope.There are some good ideas, but the hardware that is sold now is a beta and should not have been pushed to the paying customers.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 12:09:41 pm
content: Well, all of my backers were excited to have their scopes ASAP. I had convinced myself through extensive testing that the hardware is solid (which Dave did agree with!). And the software (and firmware) was tested lots. LOTS. But there's just no way to find all issues until they're in real people's hands out in the wild. Fortunately, all these little firmware/software glitches can be easily fixed, as you see in the video. It's already significantly improved from when Dave shot that video. No one that buys the scope now will have any of those problems.Actually, Thunderscope was funded 6 months BEFORE Haasoscope Pro, but still looks not even close to being shipped. I do hope you eventually get your Thunderscope (and I'm sure it will be completely bug-free and perfect). Like they say, "a scope in the hand is worth two in the bush!"

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 04:45:52 pm
content: Well, from Dave's testing, it looks like there's still quite a bit of work on the software/probably FPGA side too, but this is an impressive project.This ADC is pretty expensive - in low quantities, that's probably at least half the total price of the device, or more.I wasn't so sure about the viability of an open-source scope, but in the end, I like the idea. Sure, it will not compete price-wise with what's currently available on the market, at least from asian brands (and I don't think the $999 price tag of the crowdfunding campaign would be a realistic price tag for something commercial), and even less so if people have to build it themselves, but I do like the fact it's open-source. I suppose the FPGA HDL is also open-source and people can contribute?One thing I find a bit "odd" is that you apparently use a serial to USB converter for USB communication - this pretty severely restricts the max data throughput to computer, even compared to a simple USB FS at full throughput, let alone USB HS - and I think, people for this kind of hardware would even expect USB SS.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 05:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 24, 2025, 08:43:46 pmA sampling scope is too limited for modern day use. If you want to debug PCIe, ethernet, USB, etc you will want to be able to capture packets and run the signals through a protocol decoder.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 06:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 25, 2025, 05:01:54 pmA sampling scope is ideal for some purposes.A protocol analyser is ideal for some purposes.Use the best tool for the job.Scopes (either analogue or digitising or sampling) are analogue domain tools used to examine analogue domain signals, especially to ensure signal integrity.Once you have ensured the analogue waveforms will be correctly interpreted as digital signals, flip to using digital domain tools to examine the digital signals. Examples: logic, protocol analysers, and printf() statements .Consider the requirements for assuring signal integrity with modern digital circuits, especially measuring transitions and eye diagrams. Sampling scopes meet that objective.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 06:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 25, 2025, 04:45:52 pmYes, still plenty of room for software fixes and even firmware improvements.The slower speed (3 GS/s) ADC is "only" ~200$ in QTY 100, so ~1/5 of the price.Yes, the firmware is completely open-source too. Just open up the Altera Quartus project.The USB chip (FT232H) is not converting to "serial" like UART or anything. It does up to ~40 MB/s between the FPGA and computer, using USB HS. I have played around with the FT601 which does ~300 MB/s SS, but the cost and complexity wasn't worth it for the extra ~7x boost in speed. It's already fast enough (~100 Hz update rate in most cases).

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 06:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 25, 2025, 06:07:55 pmI tend to agree with this. I have a LeCroy Wavemaster that has a 20GSPs capture rate yet I still use RIS from time to time.If you are needing to look at the integrity of fast digital signals (ringing, edge.....) RIS is find. If you want to measure jitter, hard to beat deep memory and good software. All depends what you are after.While the Gigawave 6400 can certainly be used to identify high speed digital signal integrity problems, it can also be used to measure phase noise. I am not sure that the scope demonstrated would be up to the task. If we ignore the trigger errors and perform the PLL in software to back out the phase noise, it doesn't have the memory depth needed to pull it off. Even if it had a good trigger, it's sampling rates are fairly slow to pull it off.Maybe it can decode serial data but Dave did not demonstrate this.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 07:00:52 pm
content: It appears that Picotech still offers their series of sampling scopes. Last I checked, they were the kings in this court. Maybe have a quick read through the marketing blurb to get a feel for the applications where they are still being used today.https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/9300/picoscope-9300-sampling-oscilloscopes

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 08:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 25, 2025, 06:07:55 pmYou can keep playing this broken record but you clearly read past the serial busses I mentioned. Try debugging a 1Gbit/s ethernet 1000base-lx for example. A Salea logic (or any other USB logic analyser) ain't going to do much good at a signal exceeding 1GHz. There is a lot of stuff (layer 1) going over the line which doesn't not show up on Wireshark so even forget about printf. The same is true for PCIe which has some layer 1 handshaking going on before the link is established.A good protocol analyser (with layer 1 analysis) for one type of high speed serial bus is going to set your back tens of thousands of US dollars / euros. Not worth buying in most cases because the analyser consists mostly of a very fast sampling analog data acquisition front-end made in very low volumes (keep in mind that more modern high speed serial busses typically use PAM4 nowadays). That is why using an oscilloscope with protocol decoding software is so attractive. It is a very versatile and cost effective solution.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:10:29 pm
content: Sampling scopes are not a substitute for conventional realtime scopes. The very idea is absurd.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on September 25, 2025, 09:10:29 pmThe idea you suggest anyone claimed this is absurd. What was stated is that they still have a purpose today.Quote from: nctnico on September 25, 2025, 08:59:57 pmI wonder if this scope actually does support any level of decoding, why that was not demonstrated. Seems like a big miss. Then again, I think Dave was happy to just get a sine wave to show up on it.Did you get one and are you able to demonstrate it?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on September 25, 2025, 09:10:29 pmNobody has made the claim you (correctly) state is absurd.Every digitising scopeisa sampling scope.Some analogue scopes are sampling scopes.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 10:01:01 pm
content: Quote from: haastyle on September 25, 2025, 06:41:43 pmOh, ok. I had mistakenly gotten from the video that it may have been a FT232X.Yes, USB HS is fine here - USB SS may allow streaming in "real time" but at limited sample rates anyway, so agreed, probably not worth it here.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 10:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 25, 2025, 09:18:05 pmHe also got a fast risetime pulse to showThe scope supports ngscopeclient, which does a huge range of protocol decoding. You can read all about it here:https://www.ngscopeclient.org/I haven't really tested ngscopeclient much yet though, beyond seeing that the Haasoscope Pro waveforms show up well in it (including trigger stability!). But it claims to be a very powerful tool.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 10:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 25, 2025, 09:18:05 pmYou missed the part about ngscopeclient (and other post processing software) discussed earlier on in this thread. Take a look at the vast number of protocol decoder and math operations ngscopeclient supports. Ngscopeclient allows you to build custom signal processing chains to do all kinds of post processing on signals. And it is not difficult to write instrument drivers for it. I have used ngscopeclient and my Lecroy WP7300A to hunt down a problem involving layer 1 on a high speed serial bus. Having access to a system able to bring in 1GHz+ signals into a computer is step one of tackling such a problem.As I wrote before: the power is in the combination. haastyle (Andy IIRC) can concentrate on improving his oscilloscope and others can concentrate on writing post-processing software. Kind of similar to what you did for with the post processing software you developed for the NanoVNA. Your software adds value to the NanoVNA and the NanoVNA adds value to your software.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 10:11:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 25, 2025, 08:59:57 pmSigh.I used to do research in an industrial lab where we were creating new types of networks, as well as measuring and using them in ways nobody had done before. Consequently I amverywell aware of how to test and measure networks (as well as to architect and implement and use them).You seem to be missing the concept that networks are architected in terms of layers.A scope hassomeutility at the PHY and MAC levels, butnotat SMT, IP, TCP or "higher" network levels.QuoteSigh.Your statements in that paragraph are, if you think about it, mutually inconsistent.Quite apart from that, you seem not to understand how protocol analysis can be done. Hint: you don't need a scope to do protocol analysis - and other ways are cheaper and faster, and can be less intrusive.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 12:47:57 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 25, 2025, 10:10:35 pmI am surprised with such small memory it would be very useful. I would have liked to see this demonstrated. Maybe one of the owners will put something together.While I have played a bit with Ethernet, it was the old time 10Mb and physical layer was all done in the chipset I used. So even wirewrap was no problem. Most of the serial buses I use for home are slow. My bikes are communicating at kbits per second. For work, 1G Ethernet has been about the max so far but again, we are just using the chips for the physical layer so it's never been an issue.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 01:25:29 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 25, 2025, 09:18:05 pmWhat was stated, by you, is that the SJL sampling scope was a "lower cost alternative" to the Haasoscope. A novice reading that may end up wasting a fair bit of money before they realize that sampling scopes are for repetitive signals and realtime scopes are for everything else.

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 03:34:14 am
content: Quote from: haastyle on September 25, 2025, 06:41:43 pmOut of curiosity, why didn't you go with the faster chip and offload the compute and memory to the PC?I mean, that's the main advantage I see to using a USB oscilloscope is the reduced cost coupled with ever increasing speed and memory capacity on the PC side leading to an ever better experience.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 04:02:14 am
content: Quote from: ballsystemlord on September 26, 2025, 03:34:14 am3.2 GS/s x 12 bit is almost 40 Gb/s, or 5,000 MB/s. That's more than 10x what the USB3 can handle. In theory USB4 could work, but do you really get the full 40 Gb/s from it? And there's not chips available yet to amateurs like me that do USB 4 yet afaik. Plus my computers don't have USB 4. And if they did, could they really process the data that fast? FPGAs are just too good at efficiently handling huge data rates. The cyclone iv I used costs $25 in qty and uses about 1 W. Yeah, you have to write firmware, but that's fun!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 04:30:00 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on September 26, 2025, 01:25:29 amFirst, I am not responsible for what people purchase.Actually the following is what I posted in reference to:QuoteQuoteQuote

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 04:42:47 am
content: While on the subject of low cost equipment.Quote from: nctnico on September 25, 2025, 10:10:35 pmWhile I think it was around $80,000 new, these are fairly inexpensive today. Even my WM8500A with accessories was no where near that $20,000 mentioned.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 04:55:07 am
content: If you like new equipment, 3GHz adds another $2k but it is still well under the $20k mentioned.https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO8000/Thought I would see what Siglent offers. I am not impressed with their 7000's UI and it lacks features I would use. Compared with what Dave demo'ed in that video, Siglent doesn't seem so bad...Again well under the price mentioned.https://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDS6204A/Digital-Oscilloscopes/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 06:12:33 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 25, 2025, 12:16:42 amIt actually got kind of morbidly fun in the end.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 08:34:16 am
content: Quote from: ballsystemlord on September 26, 2025, 03:34:14 amYou assume that a PC will be able to handle that.You could kill a 3GHz Core 2 duo with an 1mbit/s serial stream in the past.To handle continuous stream of data, you need to have an OS which is de-cluttered, and which has low level IO drivers, and interrupts. Which is typically a PITA to write, debug and frowned upon by Microsoft.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 03:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on September 26, 2025, 08:34:16 amIt's painful all right, but not quite that bad. SDR-style applications have managed to stream 10 to 30 MB/sec over USB 2 HS for hours at a time without major issues, although nobody would call it a solved problem.The key with PC interfacing is divorcing the stream used to transfer measurement data from the OS's idea of a connection. This applies to both USB and Ethernet. When reliability is critical, long-term streaming measurementsmustbe able to buffer data and resume themselves when the OS decides to drop a USB or TCP/IP connection, whether at random or due to external influences. It only took me 10 years to get that through my head.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 04:00:05 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on September 26, 2025, 03:52:17 pmBuffering isnota panacea, and cancausereliability problems. "Bufferbloat" was described 40 years ago inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc970

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 04:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 26, 2025, 12:47:57 amDeep memory is nice but not always necessary. Especially with a PC application in the mix which can store previous captures as a history in the PC's memory.I don't have the Haasoscope device but I can show how Ngscopeclient can help. I have attached two screenshots from Ngscopeclient with the measurement I did on a 1000base-x ethernet signal to figure out why packets where dropped randomly between two devices which where connected together directly.The packet spans a little bit over half a microsecond. At 3.2Gs/s that would take around 2000 samples. So the 40k memory depth the HaasoScope offers is not a limiting factor for doing these kind of measurements.The signal was probeb by simply soldering a 1k Ohm 0402 resistor to a via with the signal and soldering a thin coax (like often used on uFL connectors) to the other end to bring out the signal on an SMA connector. Nothing fancy here.This measurement was made using this signal processing chain:Note that I also made the exporters visible which includes exporting to pcap files which can be read by wireshark. So if needed, you can let this setup run for a long time with ngscopeclient capturing waveforms and use Wireshark to sift through the packets. Based on the timestamp shown in Wireshark, you can find the captured signal and do a deeper analysis.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 04:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 26, 2025, 04:00:05 pmAt this point, you're teaching your grandmother to suck eggs. Do they have that saying in the UK?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 05:02:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 26, 2025, 04:21:11 pmI would be interested in reading more about the Ethernet problem you were having, how you found it, and corrected it. How these these tools helped solve it.... All the gory details would be even better. If you wrote a report on it, would really like to read it.We do a fair amount of work with 1G Ethernet (custom designs) and have never had a problem with the physical layer. Plenty of software and FPGA problems but the physical layers had basically been plug and play.Looking toward 10G Ethernet, it's too early to say. Some of the newer cards can interface with the GPU for processing. Lots to play with....We don't use USB as the common mode voltage is a killer. We commonly stream data over Ethernet but have not really had a problem keeping up. I ran a test using LabView of all things, bringing in data at well over 50MB for 12 hours without missing a beat. To be fair, I was not doing any processing on that data.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 07:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 26, 2025, 05:02:23 pmI can't get into the exact details (confidentiality and so on). It is just that I was confronted with the situation where there was unexplainable packet loss. In such cases the last resort is to look at what is going over the line and see if the lost packets actually appear on the line and if so, what the difference is between the packets which make it across and the ones who don't. With the tools I had at my disposal, using a fast oscilloscope and decoding as post-processing was the best option. The problem turned out to be that one of the devices (from a third party) wasn't fully compliant with 1000base-X ethernet standards.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 07:30:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 26, 2025, 07:23:44 pmWas it randomly causing collisions?If not, can you explain more about what the third party device was doing that made it non-compliant?Mixing standards.... Still, what was the problem?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 07:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 26, 2025, 07:23:44 pmNot compliant at which protocol layer?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 08:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 26, 2025, 07:30:37 pmLet's just say there are some variations possible with the ethernet preamble. 1000base-X has seperate RX/TX paths so collisions aren't possible.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2025, 01:19:25 pm
content: I downloaded the ngscopeclient software then read the manual for it. As described, I thought it was just an oscilloscope post processing package to decode serial data. Instead it looks like they are trying to create a generic tool for all test equipment. To me it looks like because they have gone down so many paths, none of what they have appears polished. Even if Dave had been aware of it, I can fully understand not taking on including it with the demonstration. I suspect it would take a fair amount of time just to decode some simple RS232 serial data.Hopefully it picks up steam and they continue to develop it.Several years ago I had made a demo for the Signal Hound BB60C real time spectrum analyzer. Looking at ngscopeclient, I wonder if the goal it to make it generic enough to perform a similar task.

author: haastyle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2025, 02:43:17 pm
content: FYI - there is an ngscopeclient thread on this forum:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ngscopeclient-ultimate-acquisition-software-protocol-decoder-debug-tool/We might want to take this conversation there, since the experts are on that thread.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2025, 06:00:29 pm
content: I had seen that thread and read the few posts there. It doesn't seem like a very popular tool yet. You should make some demo videos showing how to use your product with it. Even just basic thing like decoding RS-232 may be of interest.