New High-Tech Farm Equipment Is a Nightmare for Farmers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 03:32:30 am
content: http://www.wired.com/2015/02/new-high-tech-farm-equipment-nightmare-farmers/Bernice

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 03:49:56 am
content: Interesting article. Thanks for the link!Perfect example of how higher tech is not always better. Perhaps this is sacrilege to say on an EE forum but IMHO too often MCUs and high tech computerized systems seem to be the hammer looking for nails. The marketers have convinced us that anything without a lcd screen on it is not worthwhile. I'm no farmer but it seems hard to imagine that any increased efficiencies these proprietary computer systems on farm equipment allow outweigh the cost, complexity and potential down time they create. I guess the market is coming to the same conclusion according to the article:Quote

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 04:33:08 am
content: Big issue with the North American railways as well. The maintenance equipment can be highly computerized. The general rule is that if you can buy any non computerized equipment do it so you can maintain it in house. The difference with the railways is it's possible to change the way equipment is made by asking. Either you do it or they will go to the other manufacturer and "play let's make a deal".

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 04:40:24 am
content: I kinda doubt even a 10 year old combine wouldn't be highly automated.Maybe developers are just getting worse? Or they're using higher maintenance fee to make extra profits.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 04:54:33 am
content: Combines are like the Roomba of the field, some amazing capabilities. That means productivity, so automation in that case is well worth it.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 05:01:15 am
content: Good point about combines i suppose. I loves my Roomba!But tractors?

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 05:12:03 am
content: Tractors should allow for manual override (as it should most be for most simple functions). Having a sensor on a hitch or latch is fine but why shut down the whole unit when it fails. It's not that the manufacturers are unaware of the issue. It's big business and it seems to be part of the plan.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 05:14:11 am
content: Analogy; instead of plowing fields, inspecting waveforms. There's only so much value that can be added to new products, if the only purpose you have is looking at waves! So, vintage oscilloscopes retain a modest market value, even when super fancy new ones are available relatively cheaply.I can't imagine what a tractor or combine needs, other than the complete elimination of the driver altogether (full automation). Until that day comes (maybe it's already here?), I shouldn't see why the good old ones need to be any different?Tim

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 05:37:50 am
content: Still needs the driver for safety.This is a quote from the vid:Preparing seedbed for sugerbeet using a John Deere 8230 with in frontlink a 6 meter Steketee Combirol and at the back a Lemken Kompaktor. The tractor is equipped with JD's iTEC Pro ( Intelligent Total Equipment Control ) that will make it steer itself through headland turns as well as controlling the implement automatically.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 11:07:43 am
content: It seems the problem here is the equipment is designed for what is now the norm, hundreds to thousands of acre operations and not the dying "family farm" types.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 11:21:29 am
content: Reminds me of the fact that in the 90ies, outside multinationals, pure-electrical forklifts were preferred over electronic ones.Didn't have brake regeneration, smoothest speed proportionality, height indication, servo, and had less mileage with a full battery.But the owner or his family could debug it, fix it, and do the work.I see one of the really usefull possibilities of google glass here.(my definition of technician is someone who understands datalogging, can protocol, welding, power factor, lathe, sensor signal conditioning, can change a waterpump, a 7805 and a drive belt)Such technicians go to their customer that is located 10 km away, put on their google glass with a direct link to the offices of the manufacturer.There, a specialised guy leads the local generalist in the debugging process, once the problem found the technician gets some extra info and documents. Both bypass, temporary repair can be done. Definitive repair can be done immediately or afterwards if extra parts are needed.I was often on both sides of that story.-As a specialist who wished I had seen some images of the problem on the machine, so I could have taken extra parts or tools to the site.-As a specialist that drives 2x2 hours to then see all that is needed is an ass-simple repair in 30 seconds. I could have showed 'anyone' how to do that.-As a generalist that has to repair something immediately, wishing I could pay for 5 minutes of the time of a specialist.-As a generalist that wants a cheap-fast-guide of a specialist, to know to repair or recycle. Do you guess is it the 3000-dollar pump or a 30-dollar sensor?It would decrease the cost, increase machine productivity, increase specialist productivity, decrease unnecessary transport.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 11:23:56 am
content: I was once got talking to a guard on a metropolitan Sydney train. We were stuck for a while as the train in the next station wasn't satisfied about something and refused to release its brakes.Apparently the trains run DOS and Windows for certain tasks, depending on their age. It would be interesting to find out for exactly what -- I'm imagining a swathe of trains failing when Microsoft starts recommending (pushing?) free updates to Windows 10.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 11:31:47 am
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on April 29, 2015, 11:07:43 amThe problem here is the technology is designed to help the shareholders and customers, not the farmer. He still works as long and hard, to sell more product at a lower price - to remain competitive.First world.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 11:49:34 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on April 29, 2015, 11:31:47 amThe farmer is the customer in this case, but a niche one. If I was one of these agricultural machinery manufacturers who am I going to design my products for, the customers who buy 90%+ of what I sell and buy more every year or those who are living in the past fighting a battle they have no chance of winning and maybe buy a machine once every 10 years, generally used so I actually see none of their money?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 11:50:11 am
content: In Europe, in about 1990, there was a law passed that every car had to offer the possibility to be diagnosed in a standard way.The result was OBD.Allthrough not free and not ideal, It gave the possibility to diagnose a car with a standard tool, and every manufacturer gave his data, updates and info.Not working for power windows or night heating, but at least the car could be made running again.This should be mandatory in every field of mass production.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 11:58:05 am
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on April 29, 2015, 11:49:34 amThe same goes on here.Multinationalisation and mass structures are the chosen way by the oligarchs, ignorants, hyperconsumers and takers, that make up more then 50% these days.Family businesses have to shut down, no more middle class.Many ways are exploited to force this, going from build permission, exploit permissions, traffic regulations, variable tax rate, selective subsidies, law spaghetti, and also: forced machine specs. A set of machine regulations make them hugely more complex, much more expensive, and more efficient, but here it comes: Only when there's no downtime. All written with the hand of the big ones.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 01:58:17 pm
content: Hmmm.Similar articles to this have been in NZ farming mags for 5 yrs or more.The tractor story is disingenious.Modern machinery is sooooo much more efficient than that available 20+ years ago.That described lost 2 days waiting for service and/or parts is a small price to pay for the benefits of technology.Frustrating as any breakdown can be, I'd guess it was written by older person that has yet to fully embrace the benefits of modern gear.Yarning very recently to my ex local Ag contractor(I'm not actively farming now), he described how his Fendt 716 had neary 21K hours on the clock. Brakes and injector job the only major repairs to date.Had a service rep to it a few years back to fix a battle between the onboard CPU and the big baler CPU and he had to get his diary out to x refence the work he had done against the onboard fault codes logged. Couple of's...fixed.Sir, shall we check for latest engine FW?Connect phone to laptop, download and install FW.......10 % fuel savingThat saved $500 per week....1st week technician's fee recovered. That was years ago.Then you have a local elderly (80+)dairy farmer, I have known all my life, has just installed 3 robotic milking machines for his sharemilkers 250 cows.....1 labour unit saved.Cows now milk when it suits them, 365, 24/7.Hell my dad had one of the first tractors in the district, all his life he embraced advancement, for increased production, time saved, body saved, better income and a better way of life.Look forward or be left behind.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 02:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 29, 2015, 01:58:17 pmOr by somone who thinks the ECU has all the answers and has no clue on how to measure on an electrical system. I'd look for the (mechanical) reason why the sensor mentioned in the article breaks every time. Better fix that than trying to defeat it. So far I have dealt with 2 problems on my cars in which the ECU produced an error code which had nothing to do with the actual fault. It took good old fashioned fault finding to get to the real problem.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 03:09:02 pm
content: All the big farms around here lease the equipment, if the tractor stops working it's down to the lease company to fix, usual thing is another unit is brought in and the broken one removed for repair also some diagnostics are done over the net.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 05:36:21 pm
content: QuoteI worked as a field service engineer in the 70s for a couple of mini-computer companies. This was the time when a small or medium sized company for the first time could actually own a system to automate some business function that saved costs over their prior method. They didn't even have to have the system run 24/7 to have it save (make) money for them, most were day shift only operations, unlike the large mainframe customers. Of course with small systems there was still lots of stuff that could and would break down. Line printers, 1/2" tape drives, disk drives the size of pizza ovens. The customers were simply unable to do their own troubleshooting/repair activities, even customers of hi-tech companies. And of course down time is a business 'crisis'. There had to be a means where this issue could be addressed for a business environment.What the mini-computer industry offered was prepaid yearly renewed service contracts with a 4 hour guarantied response time and all parts and labor covered. A typical sized system may have a service contract cost of $1,200/month. We also offered non-contract billable service but the hourly rate, travel time charge, parts costs made that a very risk business decision as such requests were handled only after all contract service first (no specified response time offered).So for business customers (like farmers!) it simply has to be decided if the capital costs of the equipment/system plus cost of operation and on site service contracts still makes the customer more money then his existing or prior not so hi-tech equipment or method. This should not be a foreign concept for farmers as most can't even predict how profitable his crop is going to be year to year and hedges via commodities investments to limit possible losses against some limit on maximum profits.As far as the manufacture 'opening up' their system to customers so as to be more self sufficient, it just is not going to happen. Even beyond copyright and other IP issues the fact that such support systems most likely are responsible for all/many of the safety interlocks functions the company lawyers would stomp their feet on aiding in anyway letting their costumers have ability to change/bypass/disable/modify any firmware controlled functions, the legal liabilities just would not allow such access.It won't be too many more years where the automotive industry will 'weld the hood shut', it's a goal that has been driven by liabilities laws.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 05:49:18 pm
content: Service contracts are commonplace with farmers, but with tight margins it's difficult to keep on track with a model like this unless you are a massive corporation. There is also the issue of customization. Farming covers a wide variety of fields and product. A beef farm is substantially different from a pork farm, canola farm and so on, not to mention location. Customization of gear is common and necessary to remain profitable. The number of implements a tractor can pull and used is massive. Much of the gear needs to be operated from the cab and can be very complex.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 06:28:43 pm
content: Even though the advantages of modern technology are obvious, I can see why it's frustrating for the farmers. Copyright law was never designed to be abused like this. The government should step in.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 06:37:55 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 29, 2015, 06:28:43 pmNot going to happen unless the government offers liability protection for the OEMs and that is just not going to happen. One needs to live in the world as it is, not as one might like it to be.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 07:15:25 pm
content: As machines show up on the second hand market, I'm sure things will be figured out. For the highly automated gear like combines it will be very difficult to do. For things like tractors I expect and have seen some tricks played on the sensors to keep them in service.You also see basic heavy equipment on the farm, those have little automation and are eating into the tractors traditional role. Competition is good so that may be a real problem solver.If the one farm eqiupment manufacturer slips up and offers a bypass/hobble feature many farmers will buy that gear. If that happens then everyone else will quickly do the same to keep market share.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 07:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 29, 2015, 06:28:43 pmPerhaps you mean "the government should stepout".Copyright law's only force is through the fact that it gives copyright owners the right to make use of the government court systems to obtain and enforce judgments against violators. If the government steps out, there is effectively no more copyright. The government is the entity that passed the DMCA, which extends copyright. Furthermore, the government, by passing DMCA, criminalized attempts to circumvent DRM software, whether or not the circumvention of DRM software results in a copyright violation.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 07:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: AG6QR on April 29, 2015, 07:18:15 pm+1 for this, in my field of experience.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 08:02:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 29, 2015, 01:58:17 pm1. Show Numbers2. For the guy that buys it new, uses ist 100% all the time, has a big all inclusive service contract and a few years warranty.Change any of the factors and you can easyly drop below things that operated in 1995.Quote from: tautech on April 29, 2015, 01:58:17 pm"wanting technology" isn't the goal for these guys.But 1995 machinery sometimes stops operating too, parts can take 2 days too.Quote from: tautech on April 29, 2015, 01:58:17 pmSerious? Are you even real?Quote from: tautech on April 29, 2015, 01:58:17 pmDefinition needed about what is meant by "forward", and the conditions.I guess growgrowgrow newnewnew biggerbiggerbigger, somethimes a good recipe for a bankrupt.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 09:42:07 pm
content: 100 years ago they said the same when steam engines replaced the horse. Then the same when internal combustion replaced steam. Now the same when electronics replace pure mechanical solutions.While the farmer is out swearing at his broken tractor, in the background his farm is still running fully automated. Cows are being milked and fed by robots, barn is kept clean by a robot and the service guy is on his way to fix the tractor. Few hours later the tractor is fixed and blasting down the field mowing 9 meters wide in a single pass, dead straight on GPS and automatically avoiding debris and bird nests at stupid speed. Next week the farmer is going on holiday, while the farm is being run by his neighbor and that intern.In other words, put things in perspective. There are always going to be unreliable pieces of machinery, just like 30 years ago. Just like 100 years ago. But overall things have gotten significantly better for the farmer.

author: Derick Freese
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 10:01:44 pm
content: The difference is that now it requires a tech to come out to repair your equipment in a few days. Before, the farmer could get it working for now and fix it later. Sometimes, farmers don't have that 2 days, they need to harvest the crop NOW. It happens every few years here in Florida when we have lots of rain.Losing your entire crop investment over not being able to get a tech to fix your tractor for a couple of days is a steep price to pay for automation.

author: Tallie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 10:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on April 29, 2015, 09:42:07 pmThis is akin to going back to the horse... when it dies, get a new one. No use in working on it. Same direction modern cars are moving...

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 10:11:18 pm
content: exact same issues with marine engines at sea. its one thing to break down on land, quite another at sea

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 10:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on April 29, 2015, 06:37:55 pmThe government should enforce open standards and make it illegal for a vendor to lock you into service contracts with them.Quote from: rollatorwieltje on April 29, 2015, 09:42:07 pmNo this is totally different to steam replacing horses. A steam engine could be maintained by the farmer and the same was true for the combustion engine. The difference is not electronics but the proprietary software required to drive the electronics which only the manufacturer has the key for. It it were all open standards and the farmers were able to diagnose faults by connecting a USB cable to their laptop, running software which was either freely available of included with the machinery then it would be good but it's not. The farmers are losing control of their own hardware because they don't own the firmware.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2015, 11:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on April 29, 2015, 09:42:07 pmThe difference is the farmer that hacks his tractor can be put in prison for it. THAT is the problem.And if you doubt how aggressively US agribusiness protects its IP, Google up Monsanto's actions with respect to "Roundup Ready" crops. Agribusiness wrote the book on lobbying in America.The DMCA creates a bizarre distinction between moving an electron via a mechanical switch and doing the same on a large scale via a microcontroller. The former is open sourced at the local tractor supply house. The latter gets one up to a $1M fine and 10 years in Club Fed.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 12:33:48 am
content: When I see equipment mods they are in the form of tricking sensors and not modifying software. Playing around with OEM software is really taking a chance. Tricking a sensor is another story and I see no problem with that.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 12:51:57 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 30, 2015, 12:33:48 amIt's not a problem until:1) You're American4.3.The sensor trick gets redefined as a man-in-the-middle attack and end up in violation of the DMCA.US agribusiness has a very overt objective of owning everything except the costs and risk. It's the new sharecropping. They have managed to use IP law to turn what has always been a risk-laden business into a can't lose business.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 01:52:24 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on April 30, 2015, 12:51:57 amI can't say that I've had to deal directly with the American system. That is probably for the best. I do think as a general rule every farmer wants the best gear on the market. Of course if they did they every mid and small farm would be out of cash just purchasing one or two bit's of high end gear. It's a very tricky business one hiccup and your gone or starting over.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 04:36:44 am
content: There is a push in the US now to make it mandatory for companies to provide service manuals to customers to prevent intentional planned obsolescence..https://www.digitalrighttorepair.org/

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 05:58:44 am
content: Quote from: cdev on April 30, 2015, 04:36:44 amThe only thing I can think of that would come close to this is the California emissions stuff (obd2). Good luck to them but that will be a massive uphill battle.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 05:59:45 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on April 29, 2015, 11:21:56 pmSo the title of the article should be "lawmakers operating in favor of big money is a problem for the consumer". This isn't really specific to farms, this will happen with every piece of consumer good.

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 12:52:22 pm
content: I work on a lot of machinery, much of it ag. I find a lot of problems are age-old things like bad connections! Also, I've found that quite often the factory trained dealer guys don't really know how to fix it! I found a wiring fault in a harvester, for example, that had been there since new.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 06:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on April 30, 2015, 04:36:44 amI am no big multimillion buyer, but rencently needed to buy 2 boom lifts.Order of decision points importance:1. Open manuals, parts, drawings, elec wiring diagrams, direct on internet, download Pdf. Please, it's (was) 2012.2. Known proven brand.3. Distributor <100km away.4. Company that has this as main activity (no rebrands)It became Genie Z34/22. Type the serial nr. online and all you need is visible.In the very big contrast, try this with Bobcat. You can purchase a printed book, not even a legal cd.And there are brands that even don't distribute plans. Isn't that the case with Caterpillar?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 06:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: wagon on April 30, 2015, 12:52:22 pmProblem is often to get to know what the name of the guy is that, at the moment, the one is that gets it running.At most companies there is 1/5 of the debug technicians that knows the job. Most customers ask explicitly for them.I know personally of minimum one dealer that refused to distribute the previous productionline of telescopic handlers of Cat.Too much trouble, too much waste of time.The new series "seems" to be better, but the whole market looks and waits.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 10:01:55 pm
content: Fascinating, must apply to just about any modern machine, tractor or lathe.I tried to find information on Canbus some years ago, nothing, a closed system. Is this still the case?Not going to improve, give up now?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2015, 12:52:30 am
content: During the 1930s, 1940s the US had the best public transportation system in the world, but National City Lines, a company with funding from General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum, bought up hundreds of beloved public urban mass transit systems to privatize them.The much beloved and energy efficient electric light rail trains occupied tracks which GM felt were blocking the full realization of their vision for the automobile, oil and tire industries. As the saying goes, "What's good for GM is Good for America" so those hundreds of light rail systems were torn up leading to vast increases in the purchasing of automobiles. After all, people had to get to work. Lots of people could not afford cars, however. They rode the new "modern" deisel buses, which unlike the public transit systems were segregated. On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Parks refused to obey bus driver James F. Blake's order to give up her seat in the colored section to a white passenger, after the white section was filled.Gradually, ridership fell on the diesel buses and many lines were discontinued due to lack of ridership. The rest is history.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2015, 01:18:01 am
content: >During the 1930s, 1940s the US had the best public transportation system in the world, but National City Lines, a company with funding from General> Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum, bought up hundreds of beloved public urban mass transit systems to privatize them.My little midwestern town had a fantastic trolley and urban train system, as well as a very broad bus system until the 1950s. Its all gone now.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2015, 02:01:37 am
content: So here is a bit of gear for you the Fairmont MKIII Tamper still used, designed in the 70's and the original used two chart tables, with optical pickup and a roll of pcb layout tape to set the tamping line.A tamper is a machine that measures track geometry and allows the user to define track placement (smooths out track). The first computer version of this machine had a clone xt bolted inside the cab and ran 5.25 floppies. 286 and 386 variants are still in service today. They are cheap to run and do an OK job. OK they won't do high speed track but that's not where they are used. Every nut and bolt is known.Here is a Mark VI and other than size does the same job (it is faster) I think they are just under a million bucks for a single. It does have a very modern computer system.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2015, 02:10:53 am
content: Ooops, I don't think the MKVI can do high speed track either, for that get a machine from Europe.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2015, 09:00:16 am
content: Here a lot of that is a foreman, 30 workers and a few trucks for equipment, plus a tipper with gravel ballast. Not as fast, but cheaper to operate, plus they also check the line and repair signals, cut brush and such.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2015, 07:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on May 01, 2015, 09:00:16 am99% of track here is continuously welded rail (cwr) these machine came into being because of that. A rail section is as long as a train (500 meters or so) and welded to the next using a butt welder (that is a very impressive machine) or thermite. This produces massive stress in the rail and that's the main use for a tamper. The job is mainly one of maintenance even replacing one tie will warrant the machine making a visit.The older machine (MKIII) can have a complete computer failure and still tamp a perfectly straight line, or follow a laser 2km away. Curves and supers are tamped by introducing an error into the system. A pretty neat way of doing it. The mechanism consists of a projector (chopper motor for pulsing), IR pickup and a shadowboard in the middle. The shadowboard is held by a 3 foot 24v actuator with a 10 turn precision pot for position. If you look at the machine you will see the black box with flashlight end (projector) on the roller way out in front on the dolly. Curve is determined by the shadowboard pot value. Super simple and still on the most modern variants.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2015, 07:44:16 pm
content: A lot of the high speed rail is welded, but almost all the low speed is fishplated, especially in stations on sidelines, so maintenance is easier. You have speed limits in any case there for the platforms, a train going past at 120kph is going to clean the platform of moveable objects like people.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 01:20:52 am
content: Quote from: woodchips on April 30, 2015, 10:01:55 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_busYou can log/red/write/hack it, bus as in every communication network, it can be hopeless to reverse engineer it.Especially with dynamic components (plug them in, they get all their settings 1time automatically from another component, then they start to communicate according to that.Problem is that in the repair field, you cannot investigate such things for a couple of days. And it's already broke, so you would need a second working system to see what it's supposed to do.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 02:25:58 am
content: Three farmers in a bar...Farmer 1:I love those new computer controlled robotic pig feeders, I am saving so much money.Farmer 2:Yeah, but my pigs are 5V pigs, I can't afford to upgrade all my pigs to 3.3V.Farmer 3:Well, at least your 5V pigs are still alive. I forgot to update my anti-virus. My pigs got hit by a virus last Friday. Most of them are just walking around in circles, and many of them now is totally unresponsive and making funny Onk Onk sound I've never heard before.Farmer 1:Have you tried hold down both ears and press the nose?Farmer 3:Yeah, but rebooting doesn't work. I tried, but most of my pigs woke up, then froze, then face turn blue, and crash down again.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 02:36:01 am
content: The trend with the big equipment manufacturers is to sell capability not product. They want to sell you the capability to dig holes - a machine, a service plan, preventive maintenance etc. Same with tractors, combines etc. Deere and others are contemplating teaming with seed manufacturers to be sell machines that plant optimal seed patterns (more in fertile areas, less in infertile areas) and monitor how they grow. They want the farmers' data as well. There is a value proposition for this for large farms / mines / construction sites, but not for small ones that just want to buy a capable tool.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 03:24:02 am
content: Can bus is more of less locked down, while any one can get the tools to decode the data off the bus, you have to jump through some hoops to get the standards that begin telling you what does what, and many, many many! more hoops if you are interested in a manufacturer or model specific piece of data on the bus,for that kind of stuff, being bold enough to arrive at a primary dealership / service site for that brand, wearing an orange vest and work clothes and talking to a supervisor can get results (I work with vehicle logging devices that use can-bus) and so far for 6 brands this has been the only way i have managed to get anything. 2 of the brands do not even allow printing off of there chained to the wall service computer, (camera phone...)For even ride on mowers i have seen the same, a European brand would go into limp mode if it went a few months past its service date, that could only be reset by a dealer tool, that person had the smarts to hook up a can-bus sniffer to the diagnostic port and logged everything the dealer tool did, took him about 4 weeks of brain bending but he found how the new date was set, and from then on has been servicing them himself,Another thing i have seen is AD-Blu systems and would imagine it is common to AG aswell, there are atleast 2 brands of buses going around that have very poorly made level sensors (internally leak), i've since repaired a number of them, but looked into what it would take to disable the system, or atleast replace the level sensor with an aftermarket fuel sensor, and in both cases there was a few hundred thousand dollors fine for an individual to tamper with the system, not disable, just tamper with.... and closer to a few million for a company to tamper with the system,

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 04:33:22 am
content: The goal is pay per usage, license fee per time or usage. Don't conform, comply to the rules, we take that item away from you or completely stop the owner from using in as much as possible including using the force of government law. Hack away, bust the pass words get it working your way and they will use the force of government law to stop and penalize those who do this.This marketing ideology is appearing in too many uP controlled devices today.Consider the implications for driverless passenger cars or driverless vehicles in general.BerniceQuote from: Rerouter on May 02, 2015, 03:24:02 am

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 07:51:52 am
content: This is an article on a small Toyota tractor. An engineering fault for sure and a scary failure mode (acceleration increase). Even after this I know of many farmers that really like these tractors.http://philipshaw.ca/2010/03/04/toyotas-meltdown-hearing-feeling-seeing-what-about-our-farm-equipment-2/I think that one thing that is often missed by people looking at things like farming is that there is a great deal of engineering going on all the time. In some cases by massive corporations making combines, a small business making a blueberry bush shaker, a farmers custom poo pump. There will be a market for basic farm equipment. Not everyone does grain, beef chicken and mushrooms. From the gruesome cattle processing systems to combines it all counts.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 08:07:54 pm
content: I have worked at a company that designed&made aftermarket GPS steering systems for agriculture.In automation of ag. gear there is a thing called ISOBUS. This is a standardization of connectors, CAN bus cabling & timing (bitrate) and protocols to allow multiple manufacturers gear to be interchangeable (huh in theory..).But competition is not "competition" without locking your own stuff down. E.g. Trimble has a tendency to make their own 'standards'; e.g. with CMR, CMRx, SecureRTK or other proprietary protocols for spraying applications. It's always a cat & mouse game; when they introduce a proprietary protocol it's just a matter of time before it's reverse engineered and made compatible with other vendors.This is no exception for tractors steering, and in particular GPS ready tractors with an after market kit. 10 years ago most GPS steering systems were hydraulically operated. There were no checks from the tractor.. the user steering wheel was decoupled so it's not moving all over the place and also so the user doesn't have to fight the wheel in an manual override situation.Modern tractors now come with their own hydraulic steering ECU's with lots of failure modes and sanity checking. It's scary when you start up a top-of-the-line JD tractor that's 3-4 years old, and the number of error codes it can develop when tinkering with it (e.g. implement or even machine steering). Or even funnier; just by age (wear - these machines get abused alot) that develops a minor glitch. For some things it's obvious why; because it's a safety concern. These machines get shaken up all over the place, so a cable fault is quite common. So a lot of redundancy is built-in; with all contradictions checked and reported. Fatal steering sensor error? Sorry - that gearbox is staying in PARK. Thank you very much.This means that breaking into one of these systems is a lot more difficult. Try to hijack a digital steering potentiometer (usually an angle sensors with PWM output)? I hope you're not using a mechanical relay for that; any discontinuation or substantial phase jitter will make the tractors board computer go mad.A lot of these machines are "GPS ready"; meaning they have some connection for an OEM GPS field computer. However , many customers likely wish to use their existing system.. because that's what contains all their fields, harvest & crop data, special modules and installations, but in addition may be used on other machines as well.In that case, reverse-engineering a CAN protocol to the machine's steering controller is often necessary. This is not a particularly hard task; but often requires a lot of time to filter out the huge pile of CAN messages.But if your brand name is called JD; you can go 1 step better. You just encrypt & lock down the CAN protocol as well, and except any after-market supplier to pay a 6-digit sum of money to them to use their own protocol. I believe there is also 1 year cooldown before you can use it, operation restrictions are in place (which ofcourse their own GPS system doesn't have), steering quality is substantially worse than JD systems (ofcourse) and a substantial fee must be paid per system sold (basically diminishing the complete margin for a 15k euro RTK kit).But as I said; it's a cat & mouse game. One way or another we figure out a solution. Some are less beautiful then others. E.g. using an Arduino based module as a proof-of-concept to steer a 200hp+ 8 ton machine is quite wrong in many ways.

author: cosmicray
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2015, 01:11:55 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on May 02, 2015, 03:24:02 amFord is allowing access to the data for *some* Ford models. There is a project about this ...http://openxcplatform.com/