Keysight announced new 110 GHz scopes - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 10:47:27 am
content: I can't seem to find anyone else mentioning this, but it seems like Keysight have pushed LeCroy off the throne when it comes to bandwidth with the recently (July, I think?) announced UXR real-time scopes, going up to 110 GHz. Perhaps even more impressive is the fact that they are claiming 10 bit ADCs (will have to see what the actual ENOB is at 110 GHz...). Also, 4 channels at 110 GHz (I think? I don't seem to find any reference of it being similar to the older 65 GHz scopes where you had 4 channels at 30 GHz or could use 2 at 60?)Pretty cool, I will take two, thank-you-very-much.Link to page

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 11:58:49 am
content: Pretty cool. Unless it is a typo, though, I see something strange:QuoteHopefully it is a typo. Otherwise, this will be much less impressive.This oscilloscope probably caters to the automotive low-range radar crowd that operates in the 70~80GHz - big business there.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 12:49:16 pm
content: QuoteSays “of” for me...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 12:58:33 pm
content: Haha... I guess they just fixed it. I copied and pasted from their page earlier today, just to avoid any typos.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 12:59:09 pm
content: The first scope I ever saw with a 2.6kW power requirement !It makes nices pictures and heats your labPeople with a heavy TEA syndrome must have one !

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 01:07:30 pm
content: How many of those/year will thay sell?My guess 10 units a year.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 01:19:34 pm
content: I would rather buy a Bugatti Chiron..

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 01:21:21 pm
content: Or a decent helicopter !My favourite: Airbus H125

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 02:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: imo on August 06, 2018, 01:19:34 pmWould be cheaper!

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 02:35:35 pm
content: A new toy! Yippee...Now all we need is for some impossible circumstance where an engineer on this forum somehow ends up with the top 4 channel one and questions us on how to connect and measure the AC mains with it...

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 02:46:45 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 06, 2018, 02:34:30 pmOk, you are right, the Veyron will be cheaper.. And I'll save some money and buy a DS7054..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 03:03:35 pm
content: QuoteStraight out of Area 51

author: cheeseit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 03:09:08 pm
content: You think Dave's gonna find one in the dumpster..? That would be anawesometeardown!

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 03:19:06 pm
content: Do you think the knocking at the signal input connector will cause a glitch in the trace?

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 04:12:29 pm
content: I think knocking at the input may send your front end entirely out of alignment. Anything short of a gentle touch, kid gloves, in a clean room probably voids the calibration

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 04:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 06, 2018, 03:03:35 pmNo kidding. At maximum frequency, I wonder how much voltage the inputs can withstand...Quote from: cheeseit on August 06, 2018, 03:09:08 pmProbably not, but Shahriar on the other hand...Quote from: imo on August 06, 2018, 03:19:06 pmI suspect thatbreathingclose to the input connector will cause a glitch.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 04:50:41 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 06, 2018, 12:59:09 pmAnd it weighs in at 42 kg! Welcome to a new generation of boat anchors!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 05:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on August 06, 2018, 04:12:29 pmIt comes with a torque wrench for tightening the connectors

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 05:46:36 pm
content: The torque wrench probably costs more than a DS1054Z as well

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 05:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on August 06, 2018, 10:47:27 amThe preliminarily data sheet says the average ENOB from DC to 110GHz is 4.5, as it's 10 at one end it might be only 2 at the other.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 06:24:27 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 06, 2018, 04:12:37 pmHow do they ship this thing and expect it to maintain calibration?

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 06:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 06, 2018, 05:42:34 pmWell yeah, they wouldn't be able to sell it outside of an installed lab environment if the requirements for the front panel were that sensitive... and they probably wouldn't bother putting controls for hand use in the same place as any measurement port that sensitive.You can be damn sure a little finger oil on the center pin if your 1mm connector will screw with performance at 100GHz, though

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 06:44:41 pm
content: I wonder how it compares with, e.g., 1054z or sds1202x-e. Can it do SPI decoding? Bode plot? Does it have touch interface and, if so, can I draw with my finger? Can I control it from my smartphone or from browser?

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 06:52:33 pm
content: For 10% extra $ you can get someone designing for you a smartphone which can control it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 06:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on August 06, 2018, 06:41:23 pmAt the price of this I'm surprised they don't have motorised connetcors that automatically clamp to the correct torque.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 06:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 06, 2018, 12:59:09 pmThey should have put a 3-phase supply on it just for bragging rights

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 07:02:54 pm
content: Quote from: exe on August 06, 2018, 06:44:41 pmThese top end scopes probably make for terrible day to day electronic shop scopes. The front end is likely also too sensitive and easy to damage while picking up all sorts of wide band noise you don't need to pick up for simple measurements. They are often used in conjunction with other instruments (and probes) which provide perfectly impedance matched test outputs. Not really meant to be used with passive probes.This is a LeCroy 100Ghz scope doing measurements:https://youtu.be/U3w_EWgGQuk?t=4177

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 07:03:49 pm
content: I am looking forward to the episode where Dave takes this canyoning. I couldn’t see anything in the data sheet about IP67, but surely nobody would release a new scope these days that wasn’t at LEAST IP54.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 07:13:35 pm
content: Scope Month!Make a video letting everyone know how you would use 110Ghz of real-time BW!!!

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 07:48:48 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on August 06, 2018, 05:53:20 pmIt's pretty good across the whole bandwidth.Quote from: exe on August 06, 2018, 06:44:41 pmLet's just say it's not really in the same price bracket by a few orders of magnitude.Quote from: Tomorokoshi on August 06, 2018, 04:50:41 pmYeah, it's a pain getting them out of transit cases.Quote from: BrianHG on August 06, 2018, 06:24:27 pmRefrigerated, air-cushioned mule train.Quote from: rsjsouza on August 06, 2018, 04:12:37 pmNothing's final, but we are talking with Shahriar and will explore other channel options down the road.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 07:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on August 06, 2018, 10:47:27 amHere you go ->

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 07:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 06, 2018, 07:53:53 pmDaniel, thanks for taking our snark in stride.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 08:39:24 pm
content: Hi,I am curious if this machine works by the same operating principle as the LeCroy 100GHz.You probably have seen Shariars video about it. The LeCroy does it by splitting the whole input frequency range in 3 ranges of 33GHz, mixing the upper two ranges down to baseband, digitizing them and then by combining the baseband signals in a huge proprietary FPGA and a ton of software.This works, but creates huge problems equilibrating group delay at the filter band edges, eliminating artefacts, ...- does the Keysight work the same way ?- how did you verify your spec values (risetime, flatness, groupd delay, ...) ? (I asked the same question to LeCroy and they did not know)- I guess the price range is about 1M€, am I approximately right ?- whats the real-time bandwidth of a single 10Bit ADC frontend ? My guess: 33GHzBest regardsWolfgang

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 09:27:31 pm
content: Hi Wolfgang,Great questions!- does the Keysight work the same way ?We do NOT do frequency interleaving like LeCroy or Tektronix (or even our Infiniium Z-Series scopes). We have custom ASICs that we've designed specifically for 110 GHz operation. Each channel gets its own front-end module and acquisition board to support 110 GHz on all 4 channels at all times.- how did you verify your spec values (risetime, flatness, groupd delay, ...)We're following up with R&D- I guess the price range is about 1M€, am I approximately right ?It's not cheap. We are happy to discuss pricing with potential buyers- whats the real-time bandwidth of a single 10Bit ADC frontend ? My guess: 33GHz110 GHz! It's the real deal.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 09:45:50 pm
content: Daniel -What industries, products, or technologies do you suppose will be the most interested in such an exotic achievement?What type of strategies are involved in getting the signals from the DUT to the front-end of the system? As difficult as it may be to develop the front-end and ADC's - the probing must be something rather special as well.This may be the missing link to make the Batterizer achieve its goals of creating free energy.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 09:49:09 pm
content: A google image search found this articlehttp://eetimes.jp/ee/articles/1807/13/news034.htmlcontaining some interesting slides of a press conference. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find more slides of that presentation. Maybe Daniel can help us out?

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 09:55:20 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 06, 2018, 09:27:31 pmChapeau - 110 *real* GHz without interleaving is good.Your answer how you verify performance is a bit too general for me. Of course you do your R&D. If I am to spend about a million, I would like to know in detail why I should trust the specs. Do you have any literature recommendations so I can educate myself ?About buying one - I am a poor radio amateur (DL1DWG), suffering from a partial TEA syndrome (see my website). This machine is fascinating,but a bit above my price range, I am afraid.It seems that the high resolution of 10Bits does not help too much at the high end. 4.5Bits of ENOB may be a good value compared to competitors, but it is not really much in absolute terms. I presume that the ADCs use a time-staggered interleaved architecture with several slower ADCs, am I right ? This method works, but has jitter and clock sync issues, as usual.Is this really better than a single ADC with less bits and higher speed ?Best regardsWolfgang

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 09:58:27 pm
content: @rx8pilot,We've seen a lot of interest for this in research around optical and communications technologies.Honestly, a noise floor this low and a BW this high is brand new, so we expect to find new opportunities we didn't even know about. I know we experienced that when we released the 63 GHz scope.Probing-wise, I believe it will be 99% direct cable connections. Boards will be designed to handle this connection appropriately. This scope will be compatible with existing Infiniium-compatible probes, too.I think the Batterizer people should buy one.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 10:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 06, 2018, 09:55:20 pmWhen we have a warranted spec we're legally obligated to meet it. If I had to guess, we test it with super fancy test gear. For example, bandwidth is conceptually an easy one. Simply input a sweep frequency with a known amplitude and measure the response. Something like noise can require a bit more statistics/confidence calculations, but is basically the same. Input a signal with known characteristics, then measure the output. Sometimes you just need really high-end gear to do that.Quote from: Wolfgang on August 06, 2018, 09:55:20 pmFind me a good 256 GSa/s ADC and we'll go that route!We do use time interleaving. I'm not super well versed in the high end scopes, but I know that the UXR's noise floor is exceptionally low. I'm not sure what discussions were had around putting that number in the data sheet, but this is a custom ADC setup that performs really well. You might be interested in the podcast interview I did a while back with one of our ADC R&D folks:https://eestalktech.com/fast-adc/At the end of the day, the requirements for an oscilloscope ADC tend to be much more strict than for other ADC applications.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 10:16:55 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 06, 2018, 10:14:38 pmChecking DigiKey now to see what they have in stock.........

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 10:17:37 pm
content: Hi,another application the LeCroy people told me about are anti-collision and short-range surveillance pulsed radars in the 70-100GHz range.Maybe thats a market for Keysight, too.I would gess that at 110GHz there are *no* probes. Everything must be via very short, very good, very expensive, still very lossy cables.If you sell this to the Batteriser people, you could suggest that they use a waveguide input.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 10:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 06, 2018, 09:58:27 pmMaybe hit up Energeous - they've struck out so far finding a frequency they can legally transmit enough RF to charge a phone, maybe they should be looking upwards...

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 10:27:38 pm
content: .

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 12:15:46 am
content: The input connector alone on one of thosecosts several times morethan an entire Rigol DS1054...

author: Andrey_irk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 12:46:17 am
content: Quote from: amyk on August 07, 2018, 12:15:46 amI suspect they are hand picking them as it is hard to get decent yield while maintaining low geometrical tolerances.Daniel,Do you have your own facility that manufactures these 1mm connectors or you're buying them somewhere?

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 02:42:08 am
content: I think that is the highest tech board I have ever seen in my life.I doubt things get more high tech than this unless you are behind a stack of NDAs as high as your knees.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:18:39 am
content: It's actually doing real-time acquisition instead of reconstructing the signal from a frequency domain acquisition? That's... astonishing. Wow. Just wow. ASIC or not. Just wow.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 05:05:10 am
content: The numbers are so ridiculous that they look like typos.....'320 lanes - 8Gb/s each'

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 05:23:02 am
content: Quote from: exe on August 06, 2018, 06:44:41 pmActually you can do all of that since its a Windows PC based scope and they use the same PC side software on all infiniium scopes.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 05:25:24 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 06, 2018, 07:48:48 pmHeck yes, he is certainly the right youtuber to demonstrate such a high end piece of kit. Hope we also get to see some of the insides like in the previous ludicrous GHz scope.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 06:34:56 am
content: @danielI wonder if they guys at Texas Instruments would be interested in making a couple of videos?They've put out incredible integrated chips for ADAS in the past two years so they certainly have the goods available for the public to demonstrate, and they recently started increasing their youtube presence.Also because they replaced Lecroys with Tektronix. Time for another change

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 06:55:34 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 06, 2018, 09:27:31 pmI had to just sit and stare at that for a bit. This is incredible. And I imagine as you don't need to deal with frequency interleaving things, there will be less issues with noise due to analog front-end prepossessing and also better stability and repeatability?I believe we have 1 or 2 of the 63 GHz series scopes in our labs and they really are workhorses for what we do.. I can already imagine the anxiety this scope brings to our lab manager, who will now have a barrage of researches asking him to get one of these. Will these be shown at the 'Millimeter-wave measurement insights' hotspots in Europe?Daniel, what kind of cable calibration options do these have? Even with just a few tens of centimeters of cable, the attenuation at 110 GHz will be quite significant - Any 'easy' compensation solutions?Part of me was actually expecting the next generation of scopes to have solutions using external measurement heads, similar to the PNA MM-wave network analyzer systems - doing some kind of time-interleave sampling head that outputs a number of time-interleaved channels into the output?Quote from: zucca on August 06, 2018, 01:07:30 pmNow, I can't speak for Keysight, but I think you would be surprised at how 'much' of these they sell. Sure, this wont be something mass-manufactured, but I think they will sell quite a few more than 10 a year. People say the same about the 63 GHz scopes or the top-of-the-line VNAs, and I already know about a hand-full of those just in my proximity (ofcourse, the fact that I am working in a research park that has about 1500 EE researchers helps...)

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 07:34:59 am
content: few years ago at KS RnD:- "Let's design a new scope, something cool"- "Oh yes boss can't wait"- "Bandwidth?"- "Let's do more than 100GHz!"- "Yeahhh" clapping and cheering, girl dancing.- (smart EE guy, fat, smells but not too much, big coke in the right hand, thick glasses with flux on the lens, dirty hair, long beard, tshirt with ketchup stain I am anengeneer.. I am good with math)"We can do easly get 163,9GHz at -3dB, I know how"- (slim guy, tie, smells good, PRADA titanium glasses, Iphone, Ipad, Iwatch, Macpro, rolex on the right hand, hair wax, perfect simmetric sideburns)"Then we release a 110GHz machine to get the market, then we could sell the upgrade to 150GHz"- (smart EE guy, thinks:"Here we go again..., why not 105GHz, and sell the 110GHz and then the 120.. 130 ..140 .150 Ghz... bullss.."- "Any other questions?"- People sucking pens and looking to the room corners.- "Have a great day everyone!"Why 110GHz ?

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 07:39:16 am
content: Quote from: zucca on August 07, 2018, 07:34:59 amBecause that is the upper limit of the 1 mm connector they use. To go higher, they would have to go for different connectors, and currently the only coaxial connector available is Anritsu's .8 mm connector which goes to I think 145 GHz. Any more than that you would need to go to waveguides, but no waveguide can go down to DC, and metal waveguides are quite narrow-band (compared to what you need from a scope).

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 07:40:33 am
content: I'm having trouble with an Arduino blinking an LED, will this show me the waveform?

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 07:46:18 am
content: Yes, if you are driving the LED at 110GHz

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 07:57:13 am
content: Quote from: zucca on August 07, 2018, 07:46:18 amI'll have to check the sketch to make sure it isn't higher than 110GHz

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:00:31 am
content: Red LED is 475THz. No luck with that gear.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:01:33 am
content: Quote from: zucca on August 07, 2018, 07:34:59 amWhy?Because LeCroy made a 100GHz scope so 110 > 100. It is a competitive market after all. He did actually use his Mac Pro to do some market research.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:23:13 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 06, 2018, 09:27:31 pmUse the EEVblog discount code "Crikey" for $100k off

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:30:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 07, 2018, 08:23:13 amDo not forget to mention that buying it from Amazon will give you a nice 7% commission!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:34:04 am
content: Details on how it works:https://www.mwrf.com/analog-semiconductors/inp-ic-technology-powers-instruments-past-100-ghz

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:38:07 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 06, 2018, 07:48:48 pmShahriar (by way of his RF voodoo group at Bell Labs) is literally one of the few hundred people in the world who would actually need to buy it

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:47:29 am
content: Shahriar (Hugoneus) don't like mixing work and YouTube, but it's time to get one of your research boards/fixtures and bring it over to Keysight for probing and demonstration!

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:55:49 am
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on August 07, 2018, 06:55:34 amImagine - they sell 50pcs and they break even

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 09:01:38 am
content: Quote from: imo on August 07, 2018, 08:55:49 amThat's nothing.I worked in the military market were 2pcs was the break even and the remaining 3pcs was profit

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 09:04:55 am
content: The real question is, when this will ended up at ebay like other boat anchor scope I got.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 09:05:11 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on August 07, 2018, 08:47:29 amI thought he once bought home a scope from work that was on demo loan to work, and the scope cost more than his house?

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 09:06:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 07, 2018, 09:01:38 amAnd all 5 pcs then destroyed during a day at Woomera

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 09:23:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 07, 2018, 08:34:04 amTo be honest, this doesn't say that much about what they are doing to make it work. The main reason for people to go to InP is power and noise. Even CMOS does 110 GHz and above, but the issue is the noise and the low breakdown voltages, which means high currents and thus matching is hard and needs band-limited networks or other wizardry. When designing this scope, I'm quite confident the hard part isnotdesigning an amplifier at 110 GHz. It is designingone that works at 110 GHz all the way down to DC. Oh, and that phase noise on the SAH will involve alotof magic.Quote from: EEVblog on August 07, 2018, 08:38:07 amI think the guys at the optical groups are going to be more in need of such a device. Ofcourse, only Shahriar himself can comment on this, but I think most of what his group does involves band-limited stuff, and thus a lot of VNAs and Specans, but no scopes.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 09:46:19 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on August 06, 2018, 10:16:55 pmI've got a bunch of SN74LS256000000012N here. Want to borrow a couple_

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 12:20:25 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on August 07, 2018, 09:23:42 amMy guess those InP stuff work at 150-200degC at least in that front-ends. I doubt a Si CMOS would be happy with that..

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 12:25:56 pm
content: There is a markeiting reason, too: You need to top LeCroy which has 100GHz.

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 12:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: imo on August 07, 2018, 12:20:25 pmI don't think the InP was chosen for high temperature operation (or better still I think that wasn't even in the minds of the designers), for a couple of reasons, first and foremost the bandgap of InP isn't that much higher than silicon's one (1.34eV vs 1.12eV) so I wound't expect it to be much better (SiC and GaN with a bandgap of between 3 and 4 eV are) also at high temperature semiconductors properties degrade significantly so even if you could operate there you definitely wouldn't do it (noise increases a lot with temperature, electron mobility decreases, depending on the structure of the devices losses might go up)

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 01:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: imo on August 07, 2018, 12:20:25 pmWhy would they run at that temperature? The main reason is as I stated noise, and the fact that the higher mobility in InP makes it easier to design high-gain stages at high frequencies.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 01:09:14 pm
content: Its not that they want to run at such high temperatures, they have to because all the amp stages need to be run at high currents to achieve the desired bandwidth. Its the same reason why high-speed op-amps run hot. You need lot of current to charge and discharge your parasitic capacitances (e.g., Miller) in a very short time, and that means gas guzzling.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 01:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 12:25:56 pmI wish LeCrap will come out with a 120GHz tomorrow.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 03:39:26 pm
content: I think that 120GHz is less needed than a few bits more of ENOB. 4.5 Bits is about 20 discernible levels of voltage. Maybe enough for an eye diagram but not what you would normally expect from a scope for a million bucks.One more thought about DUT connections - Even very short 1mm 110GHz cables have attenuations of a few dB. And there phase is not really immune to shifting them around on a table. Phase and attenuation are heaviliy dependent on frequency, on top of that. So, pulse fidelity is not really what you want.Is there a "VNA mode" to normalize these effects out of your measurements ?

author: Eric_S
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: cowasaki on August 07, 2018, 07:40:33 amJust remember to plug your old passive BNCs straight in, and you'll be employee of the year in no time.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:18:50 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 01:09:14 pmThat is the reason, sure (mind these circuits use the bipolar transistors which heat usuallymuchmore than the cmos do). When one carefully reads through Dave's link above (I did), you may find the picture N.2 showing with 150degC (they mention 275degC too) your new oscilloscope will work for some time without a need for replacing the burned parts. Also mind the few kilowatts of power you need to pay for, in order to see those nice pictures on the screen

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:23:35 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 03:39:26 pmThe software for there PC scopes does have what they call PrecisionProbe and InfiniiSim that can help you measure the response of your probing setup and compensate it out, or it can be fed in existing S parameters or RLC equivalent models to compensate out. On some scopes this is also hardware accelerated to reduce the speed impact of the extra computational work.I'm pretty sure these are expensive optional features (as its usual for these high end scopes)

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:31:14 pm
content: ... or they hope you will buy an additional 110GHz VNA in order to calibrate your setup ...

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:49:09 pm
content: Now, let's go other end of the spectrum and get that Keysight 3459B SuperDMM (C) for a refresh! 5 Hz bandwidth in max resolution mode is enough

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: TiN on August 07, 2018, 04:49:09 pmSo have you collected enough those 3458A and need a new challenge?

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 05:10:15 pm
content: To answer some questions:Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on August 07, 2018, 06:55:34 amI believe there is a custom calibration board that helps with the cable/probe cal.Quote from: EEVblog on August 07, 2018, 09:01:38 amThis was an astoundingly long-term and expensive R&D project, so it'll take a bit to break even. You probably would be surprised by how many 63 GHz scopes we sell. It's not a huge number, but it's not small, either.Quote from: cowasaki on August 07, 2018, 07:40:33 amIn exquisite detail. You'll probably want to implement a bandwidth filter to knock down the extra 100 GHz of 1/f noise, though.Quote from: zucca on August 07, 2018, 07:34:59 amJust a few years!?!Quote from: zucca on August 07, 2018, 07:34:59 amThe 1mm connnector does max out at 110 or so. But, there's also some art and uncertainty to this level of technology. You shoot for targets and sometimes land above/below them. The ASICs were obviously designed to handle these speeds, but 110 GHz is where we landed.

author: Eric_S
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 05:24:04 pm
content: Speaking of things with silly frequencies. I guess one these could be useful for 5g research. IIRC the FCC has opened up a spectrum in the 64-71GHz band.

author: gkeeth
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 05:53:05 pm
content: Daniel,Out of curiosity, can you explain the reason for the altitude spec, in particular the "non-operating" spec? (I'm assuming the operating spec is for cooling reasons, especially with the temperature derating).

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 06:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 07, 2018, 05:10:15 pmAs Mr. Tufnel would say, "This one goes to 11".

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 06:36:46 pm
content: How do these super high frequency ADCs work in general? Are they just scaled down variants of the LLNL sampler at this point, two buffered transmission lines with a bunch of sampling gates, ping ponging between triggering the gates on one line and the other? Or maybe buffered sampling gates, each with a CCD like bucket brigade to queue up some samples for slower ADCs?Anyone want to link some patents, I'm too lazy to search

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:23:17 pm
content: When it comes to top-end machinery like this, the air gets very thin.Your market is:1) Communication tech (ultra high speed networking, electro-optical stuff, ultra high speed busses ...)2) Short range radar and object recognition3) Military (they alwas have some awkward use for top gear, whatever it may be)4) R&D, e.g. high speed physics, ..., some prestigeous universities, ...5) The people that would have bought a Bugatti or Helicopter otherwiseMy guess is around 1000pcs in 3 years, maybe thats optimistic.I cannot even think of fabricating the DUTs you need such a machine for, why buy it ? You would probably leave the rocket science tosome key manufacturers and buy their final products or ready-to-use modules from China after a year or two. Why make what you canbuy, especially if all the testing is so expensive. You need a very good reason to do that.Another guess:- In the first two years, software and hardware will be a buggy desaster- Competition will follow up within a year or two, maybe based on band-splitting technology- Next big step is 145GHz (limit of 0.8mm connector) by LeCroy, Tek or Anritsu- Prices of 1mm equipment (cables, connectors, adapters, ...) will come down a lot in the next few years due to larger production volume- Batteroo will ask for a 1mm to banana plug adapter

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:23:35 pm
content: Altitude seems to be a consumer-safety spec. Basically, this means it won't blow up unexpectedly if you take it up a mountain or onto a plane. My guess on the temp derating is that it's a heat transfer concern with thinner air, but I'm digging into it.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:30:29 pm
content: Hi Dave, maybe a watercooled oscilloscope would be a solution ?! It would be an industry first, am I right ?And their would be no altitude limit.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 08:30:29 pmThe radiator will still need to work effectively in the thinner atmosphere. So, there would still be an altitude limit.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 08:23:17 pmI haven't seen the forecast, but I'd expect 1000 in 3 years is on the high side. Buyers will definitely trend heavily towards the R in R&D.Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 08:23:17 pmThe software is the same as the other Infiniium oscilloscopes, so it's pretty darn good. There's always a chance of hardware bugs, but we've been designing and testing this with all the rigor you'd expect from us. With something this valuable and high tech, you probably wan't the warranty anyways. The 63 GHz scopes have something like 10,000 ACTIVE components, btw.I doubt we'll see something reactionary. This isn't a project you can just spin up in a couple years. The custom ASICs alone will take years for most teams even if they implement band splitting.145 GHz seems like a logical step to me, it'll be interesting to see what the future holds!I agree that the 1mm space will see some growth, it's largely been a corner case tech for a while.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:39:29 pm
content: Just chatted with our mechanical engineers about the derating, it seems to be mostly related to the power supply. As you'd expect, you need extremely clean power for something like this. If the supply we use gets altitude derated, so does the scope.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 08:30:29 pmYes, this occurred to me, too. You also wouldn't get fan noise! I'm not sure how it would affect performance, though. The whole "warm up" period is important for precision measurements. It would be a really cool hack/upgrade, though.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:48:01 pm
content: Hi Dave,I hope its really as bug free as you say. Given the extreme hardware complexity and the timeframe, plus the added problems regarding calibration, deembedding, deskewing, jitter removal, ..., all more severe due to the higher bandwidth I am not so optimistic about software quality.BTW, I have an Infiniium scope (only a humble DSOS0604), and I like it, but this is a completely new frontier. I also have some counterexamples to the Keysight claim for excellent software - e.g. BenchVue.It is plausible that others dont have an InP front-end process as advanced as you have. So my guess would be that they enhance bandwidth by expanding their bandsplitting approach.

author: gkeeth
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 07, 2018, 08:39:29 pmQuote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 07, 2018, 08:23:35 pmThanks for looking into it! I'm mostly curious about the "Non-operating" spec, though. Does that refer to when the scope is unplugged/turned off? If so, what would go wrong with the scope, something pressurized internally? Or does it refer to when the scope is plugged in & turned on, but not being actively used for measurements? In that case, does it just mean that if you go above 15,000 feet the scope will be damaged by overheating?

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:52:49 pm
content: Using heatpipes would add the advantages of reaching thermal equilibrium faster than just by fans, it would be quieter, and maybe consume less heat in total than all the air cooling approach. When looking at the fotos of your front-end modules you could use even more current for more bandwidth if cooling ist further improoved. All the heatpipes should end in a central heat exchanger block that could be either air or water cooled.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 09:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 07, 2018, 08:41:08 pmI'd think it would be easier to regulate temp and get more uniform temp distribution.Less vibration maybe.Leaks could get real expensive though.

author: Jr460
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 09:45:09 pm
content: I can see some other uses for scope this fast. The newer Fiber Channel specs.Right now 16G is what most people are buying, 32G and 64G are due soon. By due I mean that you by the HBAs and switches fro vendors without having to wait for special order.If you are playing with digital signals 64G, you need more than that see what is going on and build and test the line interfaces.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:20:01 pm
content: That's PAM4, so doesn't need frequencies quite that high.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:29:26 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 08:30:29 pmWater cooled electronics is usually a source of pain and misery. I've never worked with anything water cooled that didn't have at least a little staining from whatever colour antifreeze was used.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:36:15 pm
content: A 2.6kW stove withe the noise level of landing jet in your lab is a nuisance, too.IBM ECL watercooled mainframes ruled the world for 2 decadesAnd what if power density leaves you no choice ?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 11:32:31 pm
content: There's always Fuorinert - a lot less messy.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 12:10:34 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 07, 2018, 05:10:15 pmIt doesn't have a 2MHz filter??? Pffft.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 12:26:55 am
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 07, 2018, 08:48:01 pmThe software won't be substantially different than it has been for several years. There is no reason to expect any quality regressions there.QuoteMost of the time, scope firmware bugs manifest themselves through interactions between complex features. "When I enable SPI decoding on channel 3 while monitoring a CAN bus on the MSO inputs, it fails to trigger on pattern xxxx-xxxx-xxxx," stuff like that. These scopes are not engineered to see how many features they can cram into them, or to compete with whatever Rigol just announced. They are used to trigger on fast one- or two-channel signals to look at eye diagrams, and possibly to capture the corresponding data records for offline analysis. As long as the core signal processing is done correctly -- which it will be -- the users will be happy.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 12:58:32 am
content: Hi,if you say that the software for this scope is old, I like it.It will have fewer bugs then.Owning quite some Keysight equipment (see my profile) I know that software quality is not too bad in general, but there are exceptions (BenchVue).When I get you right the software on my DSOS0604 is the same as on the new scope with 110GHz ?I dont know what RIGOL announcement you are referring to, but the UXR and all the RIGOLs have no common customer base

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 05:24:18 am
content: Yep given that they most likley use the same software means there should be very little in the way of bugs. So far all infiniium scopes have used the same software. They just drop support for old scopes in certain versions of it once it becomes too annoying to maintain while adding support for newly released scopes. So basically if your infiniium scope is not 20 years old and runs Win 7 and up then you can use the latest and greatest software.With how many advanced features are crammed into this software it makes sense to just use it everywhere, rewrtiing all of this would take ages even for a large team of programmers. But most of these features are locked away under a optional license. On your particular DSO S-Series even the bandwidth is simply a license key (But obviously not unlockable up to 110GHz).

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 07:27:06 am
content: Does it have the classic 20MHz bandwidth limiting function that "all" oscilloscopes have? :-)

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 10:02:25 am
content: Quote from: Berni on August 08, 2018, 05:24:18 amI've got an S series - there's plenty of s/w bugs.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 04:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: srce on August 08, 2018, 10:02:25 amIf you have bugs, we'd love to hear about them! You can shoot the contact centers a quick e-mail or phone call (see my signature).Quote from: glarsson on August 08, 2018, 07:27:06 amQuote from: bson on August 08, 2018, 12:10:34 amThe Infiniium Oscilloscopes employ some DSP techniques, so you get user-definable bandwidth filters! I believe there are also some hardware filters as well.@Wolfgang, yes, it's the same GUI for the UXR and the S-Series.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 07:30:42 pm
content: Hello,my respect, this is great scope.If a customer buy such a scope would an employee bring the scope and train the customer?Best regardsegonotto

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 07:54:21 pm
content: I would say at prices like this a lengthy presales period with ample application support is the minimum.When I bought my humble S-Series I got a unit on loan from them plus application support on phone and an engineer visiting my place.Good service is a sales argument, especially with expensive equipment.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 08:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 08, 2018, 04:53:41 pmThanks - but they've been reported months ago.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 08:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on August 08, 2018, 07:54:21 pmThis type of equipment is not acquired such an enthusiastic EE calls KS and after a confirmation the gear is on stock he sends an order via emailExcept some private hobbyist all serious organizations or companies (who usually need such an equipment) recall a tendering process organized by their Procurement department. And those procurement guys know pretty well how to squeeze KS or Lecroy in, be sure..

author: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 09:50:02 pm
content: Daniel - congrats to you and the Keysight team on the UXR! Super impressive achievement-Rich

author: cpuerror
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 10:35:36 pm
content: I'm going to wait for Hantek to come out with their 110Ghz scope I think it will be much more affordable.

author: Scratch.HTF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 11:20:49 pm
content: 1+ terasample/second ADCs, anyone?

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 12:15:01 pm
content: Thanks for the post UNN and comments esp Daniel from K-S, would have been a fascinating development, would love to have been a 'fly on the wall'.That is a LOT of data coming at you. 250GSa/S x4(channels) x10bits

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 02:07:04 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on August 09, 2018, 12:15:01 pmIt's very impressive - 10Tb/s. Is it DDR or something more specialised? Lots of pins on the ASIC to drive that many memory banks in parallel.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 02:56:47 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on August 09, 2018, 12:15:01 pmUhm, at full speed it has much lower ENOB, I wonder if this affects required memory bandwidth...

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 03:33:55 pm
content: Quote from: exe on August 09, 2018, 02:56:47 pmIt's 5 bits ENOB at max sample rate, so that would only halve it. That's still a lot of mem b/w. I suspect they'd still probably need to store at least 8 bits anyway.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 04:42:02 pm
content: It doesn't matter: you still have to get the bits into memory somehow, whether they are effective or not!

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 04:49:41 pm
content: Agreed. Hardware standards propose 8Bits parallel anyway, I guess.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 08:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on August 08, 2018, 07:30:42 pmThanks! You'd have to talk to your local application engineer (AE) about on-site support and setup time.Quote from: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 08, 2018, 09:50:02 pmThanks, Rich!Quote from: srce on August 09, 2018, 02:07:04 pmI think I'm allowed to say... it's a hybrid memory cube.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 09:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 09, 2018, 08:28:28 pmInteresting - not come across that before.Here's a micron partdatasheetfor anyone interested.£400 for 2GB - 896 pin - 1.28Tb/s bandwidth. 4 x 16 SERDES links at 15Gb/s each. So you'd probably just need to have two of those per scope channel.Nice

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 05:27:09 am
content: Holy crap that is a speedy memory chipBut the chip is actually pretty cheap at such a price tag when you go find a FPGA that is callable of running this monster at full wack. The interface to it is 4 links, each having 8 to 16 pairs and TX and RX is separate. So that gives us 4 x 16 x 2 = 128 serdes channels! Even FPGAs with 4 serdes channels at these speeds cost an arm and a leg.But seeing this has those 4 links... does that mean that this is also technically quad-port memory with all ports capable of individual write+read operation?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 05:36:39 am
content: If they are rolling their own ASICs they could have leveraged something like HBM2 as well with 256 GB/s per package.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 09:10:54 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on August 10, 2018, 05:36:39 amFrom a quick google - that looks harder to integrate though.For HMC it looks like you have 128 differential data pins @ 15Gb/s (512 IO in total) in a BGA package - whereas HMB2 looks like 1024 data pins @ 2.4Gb/s (1696 IO in total as there's lots more control pins per channel) and the memory has to be integrated in package on an interposer. If you need two, I'd guess you're going to struggle with needing >3000 IO

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 11:00:23 am
content: I'm still catching up with this....Quote from: bson on August 07, 2018, 04:18:39 am

author: vaualbus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 10:19:51 pm
content: I'm just curious to the overall system architecture.So we know that we have 4 boards each handling one channal,Than there has to be another boeard for handling each channel 1.2Tb/s data.I beat it is full of asic/fpga/DSP that converts that signal into I guess PCI 3.0 (or thunderboalt?) interface that go to the computer side.I will beat that you use almost all of the pci lanes avaible from the processor (i7 or i9 by the way?).Than I will beat there is yet another board handling reference clock for the four channel.And a monster power supply of course.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 09:28:51 pm
content: In case someone missed it:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/something-amazing!-keysight-uxr-110ghz-256gss-10-bit-scope-teardown-exp/