Hacking A Laptop Battery - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 02:13:04 am
content: The battery on my HP laptop recently kicked the bucket. I'm looking to see if I can get a replacement, but I would rather make my own, reason being that this machine takes a fair bit of power to run, and even when I first got it I could only push the battery to 2 hours at most. Add to that the bad placement of air intakes, and things got silly. I would like to build my own little set of batteries that both elevate the back end of the machine, and provide power for longer periods of time. The thing is that there are multiple pins on the battery (6 if I recall correctly), and I'm guessing that they aren't all for power. Some must be for data from a controller of some sort that's in the pack.I'm also wondering what I'll find if I go poking around in there. I know most battery packs on laptops are just off the shelf cells that get shoved into a housing, but I'm wondering if this battery pack has some other cells that could be dangerous if I crack the pack open.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 02:19:52 am
content: Most laptop battery packs contain a circuit that monitors individual cell voltages and temperatures, identifies the battery's model and total number of charge cycles, and so on.You could replace the cells if you can find a comparable replacement, but engineering an entirely new battery pack with a different capacity may be more difficult.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 02:30:57 am
content: revive the built in circuit, replace the cells with any compatible. if you are me, i'll take it apart before its totally dead, "characterized" the cells (voltage), have a rough look at the circuit and find out if "hack possible" and find the compatible cells/battery and start modding. and if you have extra buck, buy a spare battery, in case your mod dont work out well. my 2cnts opinion.

author: kaptain_zero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 02:37:57 am
content: Lithium Ion packs in laptops are part of an engineered system. If you can find the exact same cells used in the pack, it is possible to safely rebuild it. Attempting to modify the pack, different cells, different capacities etc. will all cause problems with the on board charging system that was designed for a specific capacity/brand/type of cell. Most likely you'll have 18650 cells inside, but depending on who made them and when, the actual charging specifics can vary... higher or lower peak voltage and discharge limits. It's not something to fool with, failure of one or more cells can be accompanied with the always delightful "Vent with Flame" event.If the laptop is of use to you, then spring for a factory replacement pack and relax. If you must tinker, I'd would build an external pack with cables to the laptop and devise a separate charging system.... The so called hobby chargers come to mind, as then you can set the charge rate and such to suit the pack you built. Not a very convenient way of doing things, but if you must, you must. Me.... I'd just buy a replacement from the manufacturer..... that "Vent with Flame" event, while highly entertaining at a distance, really sucks when it occurs in your lap.That's my $0.02 worth....RegardsChristian

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 02:47:13 am
content: I've just been through this exercise with my IBM laptop (R50p about 2004 vintage)It's not bad specs for and old machine and the only problem was that the battery was not holding charge for long.The IBM/Lenovo batteries were about $230 each so I went for a Chinese 'equivalent', actually a couple of them from different sources.So far, no problems. The Laptop recognises the battery capacity and reported charge/recharge times seem reasonable. No overheating that I can detect.I did consider rebuilding an existing battery but getting the pack apart, sourcing cells with (hopefully) the same specifications, was all too hard.Should my laptop burst into flames, I'll be sure to report it here.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 03:02:55 am
content: Would there really be a large issue in increasing the capacity? More batteries in parallel would give a higher current and voltage, I guess I could study the battery and build a regulator that would keep the current and voltage within the limits.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 04:36:48 am
content: If the charge circuit monitors the voltage of and controls the flow of charge current to individual cells (which is a good idea with lithium batteries), then you won't be able to add extra parallel cells without compromising performance and lifetime.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 08:05:43 am
content: There is in-battery "charge controllers" , that if they detect an single Cell with very low voltage or disconnection (for adding an new cell),they lock down , and they do not start an charging sequence, ever again !!Currently there is no easy way , so to reset those " in-battery controllers" .My experience comes from an battery from an ACER , that I still own.I ended up, getting an Chinese battery , that has poor performance ,the scam that they do , are that they buy very aged Cells "made in Japan ".And when you get the pack , it is all ready with half life or less in it.The cells on the original ACER battery was the Panasonic lithium Ion CGR 18650A .The lithium Ion gets " chemically active" by the first second from the manufacturing, and they die even with out any of use , in 3-4r years time.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 08:27:08 am
content: Maybe it is a good excuse for new laptop

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 08:45:01 am
content: I was not aware that the price of an single lithium Ion 18650A Cell , are about 9$ ( fresh and shiny ).And imagine that an medium laptop pack will have eight in it , and the smaller ones just four.Those battery packs comes close to an manufacturing cost of 100$ its.Still there is brands of laptops , that they overcharging their retail price by allot.Example: Toshiba VS Acer , the first one will ask 200$+ the second about 130$QuoteEbay are full of Toshiba laptops , yes they sell them due the high cost, of the new original battery.But why in earth ? they did not asked to get informed about it , before even buy it !!

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 08:57:35 am
content: I have been down this path before with an old IBM laptop.It turns out most Lithium Ion battery packs have a counter that will prevent the battery from charging once the counter reaches 1000 recharges. Therefore changing the cells wont restore the battery to a working state.The same goes for the new lithium Ion power tools. reading the paperwork shows the battery can be re charged 1000 times. Not Approx 1000 times but a flat 1000.Regards

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 01:20:30 pm
content: I considered rebuilding the pack, until I found, like Kiriakos, the replacement cells cost more than buying a 3rd party battery pack.http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo418650cell32v1500mah45arate432whullistedunapproved.aspxEven if you bought a full pack from some unknown China maker, the same unknown freshness goes for the cells, $6 @ with delivery, unless you get it from an authorizes distributor to guarantee the distribution chain and will costs 1.5-2x more, just for parts, $9-15 @.I just bought a no-name Chinese Acer 6 cell replacement 5200mAH pack for $26 delivered, and it rocks; the eBay seller has sold over 100 of them, with no complaints about safety or charge capacity. Still testing and am very skeptical about its charging safety, so I keep an eye on it with my lab. But it gives over 4hrs of battery life prelim testing, I estimate it will run ~ 5 hours once fully conditioned.But if you look above, building it by cell wll cost $36 parts only with cheap no-name Chinese Li, not including my time and labor. With the name brand that's ~$90 in parts alone.!

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 01:30:50 pm
content: I use my Acer mostly for reading and web stuff. For the most part a netbook does the same, and I have a $200 Acer netbook that does the same with up to 15 hour battery life. With heavy use, 8 hours.Its not good enough for 720p video streamed, but OK if downloaded.I agree with you, if your laptop need is very defined, a netbook is a potential path for whole day working on battery alone in lieu of a new battery for an old power hungry laptop. It also weight much less than 1/2 a laptop.If it weren't for the cheap Chinese Li replacements, I'd probably make my laptop a permanent lab computer to run USB test devices.Quote from: Jimmy on January 25, 2011, 08:27:08 am

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 05:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: Darkman1969 on January 25, 2011, 08:57:35 amAre you kidding me!? Ugh, this is gonna get messy. That would explain why it reads as "fully charged" at around 64%. Either that or ubuntu is reading stuff funny. Well then, I guess the roundabout method of getting in through the side power port seems like the only way to go.Although this does make me wanna hack it apart even more. I would need to find a way of spoofing the identification and such to make it work...I wonder what communication protocol the battery uses to communicate with the machine.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 07:17:13 pm
content: Lithium Ion packs are required to have not only charging but protection circuits as well. These monitor the cell voltages, temperatures and current drawn from them. They are set up to prevent short circuit and overcharge conditions. In order for a manufacturer to ship the pack they will have to be qualified to a UN requirement.If making your own, remember that if a cell gets too warm it might catch fire.YoursNeil

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2011, 09:59:33 pm
content: Fire would be bad. Hence why it would be best to stick new cells in the same housing, but if there is a counter that limits recharges, I won't have much of a choice.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 04:21:51 am
content: Direct soldering over Lithium Ion , is forbiten.You need to buy batteries with tags at list.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 04:29:18 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on January 26, 2011, 04:21:51 amwho said?if you afraid of fire, you can do this hack.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 04:53:25 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on January 26, 2011, 04:21:51 amA good excuse to make one oftheseso you can spot weld your own tabs!

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 07:29:28 am
content: Quote from: shafri on January 26, 2011, 04:29:18 amIt's like magic!Quote from: GeoffS on January 26, 2011, 04:53:25 amForbidden...but if I'm fast enough I bet I could solder the tabs on without blowing them up. It seems safer than using a spot welder. Dang, now I want to build that too...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 05:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on January 26, 2011, 07:29:28 amQuote from: Kiriakos-GR on January 26, 2011, 04:21:51 amhttp://linux-7110.sourceforge.net/howtos/netbook_new/LIbattery/LIbattery.htmlthere alot more, google "Lithium Ion solder"

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 05:45:31 pm
content: for stick packs like that, i would tin both ends with a big solder gun then use ahammerhead bitto assemble.rarely is it worth the effort to re-cell a laptop... most i've opened resulted in destroying the case to get at the cells. keep a bucket of sand next to your bench if you try this inside. ABC extinguisher won't put out a lithium fire. i think its class d for lithium.-sj

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 06:51:08 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on January 26, 2011, 07:29:28 amNo one are fast enough .... so to not heat the battery .By heating the battery "gets internally damaged " and looses an portion of the internal capacity.About blowing , its not that easy to happen, but it does happens , and the fire looks unstoppable, until the battery to burn out all the way .

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 07:01:22 pm
content: Quote from: sonicj on January 26, 2011, 05:45:31 pmYes, it's class d for metal fires.Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on January 26, 2011, 06:51:08 pmI wonder if there's a way to prevent that. I wonder...if you put the cell in a plastic bag, and then placed the bag in ice water, would the water sink the heat from the head of the battery before it reached the rest of the battery? Possibly have some other metal strips just sitting on there to help. Of course the cell could ignite if the plastic leaks.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2011, 09:24:32 pm
content: I did direct soldering by having the half battery body sunken in to water .Even If I did wipe the battery with a cloth , few days after, there was signs of rust.Even today, I could not tell , if the rust caused by the water , or , if the heat damaged the shield that protects the battery from leaking .

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 02:29:06 am
content: The thing to mention at this point is that mixing lithium and water is areallybad idea. No problems while the containment is intact, but if not you have a problem.When it comes to hacking lithium batteries together this video says it all:

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 02:58:32 am
content: Quote from: Chasm on January 27, 2011, 02:29:06 amNop it does not , lets stick to the subject ....( He did an silly use of batteries , and he did not build an adjustable output , so to act as an welder,and so its a massive Fail and waste of parts )

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 03:03:08 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on January 26, 2011, 09:24:32 pmThat's why I want to keep it in a plastic bag. Unless the container itself leaks no water should get to the cell, and it will still sink heat from the soldering.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 03:04:15 am
content: The true solution about the CGR 18650A , are to be replaced by the industry ,with something more safer , like an enlarged Sanyo NiMh ,the new ones that they hold their charge for long time.EDITLance , because of my experiences from my own adventure ( wasted hours about getting info and parts & labor),I have to discourage you up to the point to let it go , its best of getting even an Chinese medium quality battery,than wasting human energy about rebuilding this pack.Mostly because the rebuild , it has less than 5% success rate.

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 03:11:31 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on January 27, 2011, 02:58:32 amThe use in the end of the video is stupid, it is actually the battery for a electric bicycle.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 03:17:35 am
content: Quote from: Chasm on January 27, 2011, 03:11:31 amI should had guess it because of the 36V output,but I was negatively charged ,because of the poor video , and the fact that he does not inform, about what he is doing.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 04:07:26 am
content: Personally instead of trying to make a new battery pack I would build a portable version of the power brick. In that case you just need to satisfy the voltage and current ratings and you can make the pack as big as you are willing to carry. Get it big enough and you can even take it on camping trips. Not being limited by the case of a particular model also means that you may be able to use the pack for other things.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 04:32:01 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on January 27, 2011, 04:07:26 amThis sounds like an excellent idea. I'm about to take a trip where I'll need my laptop but will not be near mains power to recharge it.An external, luggable power source would do the job. Size and weight (within reason) would not be an issue.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 04:56:27 am
content: I guess that works. Depending on how heavy they are. I would still need to put them together though, which brings us back around to the whole soldering issue.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 05:07:26 am
content: Quote from: Lance on January 27, 2011, 04:56:27 amIf you are worried that much with soldering you might as well get premade packs with all the protection circuits, or use a car battery + DC-DC's.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 06:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on January 27, 2011, 04:56:27 amget a replacement battery. EOS.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 07:14:32 pm
content: The all idea behind the laptop battery , are to work :1) as mobile source2) backup power if mains stop for any reason.And so every laptop must have one working battery in it.About extending the operation time, with out mains .You can use freely any electrical source that can offer 18V ( or what ever are the specs of your laptop) ,connected to the external power jack.The most paranoid about the " external power jack " are that its very hard to find an male jack at the market.And if you do , they cost as 5$ or more .The inner pin size VS the external diameter usually , its far away of regular plugs that cost 0.30$

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2011, 09:02:24 pm
content: Or, I could use the cord that goes from the transformer to the laptop, a male version of that would be easier. To come across.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2011, 12:27:01 am
content: external is a whole different ballgame. you have a lot of viable options. whats the voltage & current outputs of the ac/dc converter? what type of connector to the laptop? do you own any battery chargers?-sj

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2011, 02:34:10 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on January 27, 2011, 07:14:32 pmThat's easy, cut off the existing one the brick (by the time you do this its probably out of warranty anyway) and add common jacks, now you can choose if you want to use the original jack for the brick or your new pack.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2011, 04:55:44 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on January 28, 2011, 02:34:10 amagreed! i useanderson power polesfor all sorts of dc devices. they are non-gender specific, polarized, high current, you can color code for different voltages, self-cleaning, good for 10,000 matings, solder or crimp, lockable or can be left as a breakaway for the inevitable child/dog vs power cord... anywho, an excellent connector for this sort of application-sj

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2011, 06:45:05 am
content: Quote from: sonicj on January 28, 2011, 12:27:01 amI have a couple, but I don't have any that I can take apart. The output is: 19VDC and 4.74A.Quote from: Hypernova on January 28, 2011, 02:34:10 amI would have to modify the brick, the cord goes directly from the laptop the the brick. I could just put my own jack in there, not too complicated.I'll take a look at those connectors, they look useful. What happens after 10000 matings?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2011, 07:54:10 am
content: Quote from: Lance on January 28, 2011, 06:45:05 amInteresting question ...I do own anderson power poles the SB50 , I had build an extension battery pack for my APC UPS.About the 10000 matings, its the warrantied limit for 100% good contact.Logically after that limit , you had to inspect the connectors more regularly.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2011, 10:13:52 am
content: Quote from: Lance on January 28, 2011, 06:45:05 ami would suspect that 10,000 matings would exceed the useful lifespan ofmostconsumer electronics, but if not, you simply clip off the connect and crimp on a new one.check out what i found in my box-o-wall-warts...its a compaq 12V to 18V boost converter for a laptop. the pics should give you a good idea of the usefulness of the APPs.*yea, yea... i know, i know... direct driving the converter from a solar panel is a bit of a stretch/bad idea but you get the picture

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2011, 09:38:26 am
content: Quote from: sonicj on January 28, 2011, 10:13:52 amNo no no no no no no , its not that simple !!You have to buy another connector = pay the price premium for it , and replace the old.And something more , I bet that "anderson" also haves and an special crimping tool,also wild priced , as the connectors does.If I was not forced due the UPS to use those "anderson" ( The UPS had the plug on it ) ,for common things I would use the three pin metallic connectors for microphones ( Canon type ).Internationally known as XLRhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLR_connector

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2011, 06:54:14 pm
content: Actually XLR would work. The pins are wide enough to handle the current.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2011, 05:46:34 am
content: Yes practically the XLR can handle 10A continuously even 15A max.But if the size of the XLR ( length male + female ), become an issue , then we move at the 3-6A solution,I do not know the part number ( commonly called as CB-VHF 4 poles power connector )It has the half length from the XLR , 3.4cm per connector , 7cm for male + female .

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2011, 06:52:33 pm
content: That seems like a much better alternative. How about the cells? What are some good places to go for those? Also I haven't been able to find that connector, can you provide a link?

author: Polossatik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2011, 10:06:07 am
content: IF you're talking about connectors...I like EC3 ones

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2011, 12:01:38 pm
content: I'm not a big fan of using standard connectors like XLR for non-standard applications like power. What if someone plugged it into their amplifier/mixer, or plugged their microphone into your power supply? But at least low voltage DC is unlikely to kill/seriously injure people.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2011, 02:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on January 31, 2011, 06:52:33 pmDo you have any physical store with parts in your area ?If yes , just the picture it will help.Its commonly used on CB (vehicles) or VHF ( boats ) radios.Or alternatively use ebay search.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2011, 05:00:36 pm
content: Quote from: alm on February 01, 2011, 12:01:38 pmI'm going to be the only one using it. If I ever did make one for another person I'd pick a more dummy friendly one.Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on February 01, 2011, 02:44:04 pmSounds like a plan. There is a store or two around here, when school's out I'll have more time to look around.Are there any brands of batteries that are particularly good compared to others?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2011, 08:53:38 am
content: Quote from: Lance on February 01, 2011, 05:00:36 pmI have no idea of what batteries you are planing to use.There is plenty of options , but its one it will drive in to a specific sized battery pack,plus the weight it will come in the equation too.Generally I favor Sanyo - Sony - Panasonic .

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2011, 06:51:58 pm
content: Well I guess I'd be going for some lithium ion cells. I guess I should be asking what characteristics should I be looking for in a battery.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2011, 08:01:55 pm
content: I do not suggest any use of lithium ion cells , they need special circuitry about charging that you do not have one.But hey I got confused again ... are you thinking to rebuild the original pack ? ( My suggestion to it its a big NO )Or to make an alternative battery pack completely external ? ( Yes with common batteries like NiMH AA but you will need many of them,and the 2700mA version does not come cheap.)About making the battery pack , you are alone on this , as concept.Its best before you go for shopping , to make an schematic of what you have in mind and post it here ,so to get an advice .

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2011, 12:18:40 am
content: My classmate for his final years proj was making a 3ch Li-Ion power supply and charging system for a robot (which I was building) using some TI management chip.v1: didn't do anythingv2: blew the chip which takes a week to source from farnellv3: changed mosfet which blewv4: Works when he enabled each channel by themselves.And then when he tried to use all 3 at once they all blew up and he's out of spare chips at this point.Oh and this was before the day of the exhibition.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2011, 02:25:38 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on February 02, 2011, 08:01:55 pmI was looking at both actually. I know I need special control circuitry for lithium cells, but I'm sure I can come up with that.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2011, 03:52:47 am
content: Quote from: Lance on February 03, 2011, 02:25:38 amAny half decent battery charger chip will have example circuits spelled out for you.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2011, 10:22:07 pm
content: Sounds good. I'll shop around when I have some more time.

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2011, 07:54:57 pm
content: For charger chips, are there any brands that are generally considered better?

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2011, 02:53:37 pm
content: interesting readhttp://www.laptops-battery.co.uk/blog/how-to-replace-battery-cells-inside-laptop-battery/

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2011, 07:04:28 am
content: Yeah, I'll need to wait till the summer before messing around with this. School is keeping me quite occupied at the moment.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2011, 08:27:28 am
content: Quote from: Sionyn on February 16, 2011, 02:53:37 pmThis is why .... I was suggesting to avoid rebuilding such packs.... there is no simplicity about doing it .

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2011, 06:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on February 20, 2011, 08:27:28 amIsn't the challenge the whole point? Or part of it at least?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2011, 10:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: Lance on February 20, 2011, 06:14:40 pmNop , there is no challenge if you try to do something like that,with out having knowledge - special parts - and tools.This thread had come to 5 pages , its not wise to speak over and over about already known things.