Why is it so hard to get a proper "all chemistry" charger for cylindrical cells? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 05:05:43 pm
content: While there are some pretty nice NiCd/NiMH chargers with good functionality, this is not really the case for other cell types.Even when narrowing this to good LiIon charger with so-so NiMH capabilities, it's quite hard to find a charger that offers more than basic functionality.It's not that I expect rocket science, just some advanced features like- Voltage display with two decimal places- Capacity display during charging- At least three charging currents between 300mA and 1A (display of actual measured current preferred)- A capacity check mode (discharge/charge), maybe with 2 or three different discharge currents- Support for all typical Li-Ion sizes including those with protection PCB and top button (nub), LiFePO4 if possibleThe usual suspects somewhat fail in at least one discipline-Xtar VC4lacks a proper voltage display (inaccurate LCD gauge) and discharge mode-Xtar VP4lacks any kind of capacity display-NiteCore IntellichargerD4 lacks any kind of capacity display-Efest LUC BLU6lacks any kind of capacity display and needs Android 4.xOther charges look promising but fails because of technical issues:-Foxnovo F 4Shas capacity measurement but it's inaccurate. Plus there are only two charge currents and the 12V supply tends to get killed by the charger. No temperature control either.-KINGSOLAR 4-Slotsseems to have a bug in the capacity measurement that makes it useless and t looks like it also has some mechanical or electrical issuesThen there's theOpus BT-C3100 V2.2which looks quite promising and is said to have a good analyzer mode.I understand it's a very good charger for NiMH and it might even support LiFePO4 with an internal voltage switch, but for Li-Ion it's not ideal due to its pulse charge approach.This leaves me more or less with theLiitoKala Engineer Lii-500.Which btw. is rebadged as AccuPower IQ328+ (no USB) or IQ338 (with USB charge output) for like 250% of the Lii-500 price (50€ instead of $20).It doesn't support LiFePO4 and the discharge current is limited to 500mA but at least it it has a somewhat accurate capacity display.Still, I kinda fail to understand what makes it so hard to build a proper charger that has very good support for NiMH, Li-Ion and LiFePO4and offers good and accurate voltage/current/capacity display.Ok, there is a new candidate on the horizon, theSkyRC MC3000.Not available yet and pretty expensive.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 05:28:57 pm
content: Lithium ion cylindrical cells are not consumer cells, so there is only a very limited, specialist market for such chargers. You could probably only sell a few hundred at best. Not enough volume to recoup the R&D cost on something with such complex features.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 05:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 28, 2015, 05:28:57 pmHm. If you look at the currentpre-orders for the SkyRC MC3000 at GearBestyou can see that a few hundred people pre-ordered it. Like 179 for the EU plug version alone. And this is just pre-orders for one Chinese Shop. With all the new LED flashlights and vapes using Li-Ion cells it seems questionable that there's no demand for a quality Li-Ion or "all chemistry" charger.

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 09:47:31 pm
content: The electronic portion of multi-chemistry charging is well covered by RC chargers. They know how to charge anything any way you like, even multi-cell balanced battery packs and across all common chemistry.As mentioned before, the cylindrical cells are not in general consumer use, thus the lack of all-in-one charger that does what you want.Note that the SkyRC charger mentioned above is by SkyRC, who otherwise are in the RC business, so they have easy access to RC charger tech.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 10:35:11 pm
content: Well, Li-Ion and LiFePO4 cylindrical cells are certainly not "mainstream", but there is definitely a big market due to usage in LED flashlights and E-cigarettes.Ebay and Amazon are bursting with offers for Li-Ion cells and chargers. It's just that most of the available chargers are either very basic, poorly designed or lack this feature or the other.Last but not least these chargers are either optimized for Li-Ion or for NiMH but not for both - and most of them don't support LiFePO4 at all.Undoubtedly the charging technology exists in RC chargers but it's simply not very handy to use an RC charger with multiple cradles or to use a separate charger for each technology.So yeah, anyway, for the moment I just hope that this MC3000 thing can live up to the expectations.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 10:53:05 pm
content: Auto-detecting the chemistry of a cell is not a trivial matter. (If a cell presents with a voltage of 1.4 V, is it a fully charged NiMH, or an over-discharged lithium ion?)If you ask users to manually select the chemistry they will be dumb enough to get it wrong and create a hazard.Think about the development cost of a micro-processor controlled charger with a display and buttons and other features. This is not the same as taking a one chip solution, spinning a board based on the application note, and putting it in a case. If I tried to design, prototype, test, and get manufactured such a thing, it would take months of effort. To make a sensible return on that I would have to sell a million of them. Not going to happen.However, if you really need and want such a thing, why not design and build it yourself? Then it doesn't have to be commercially viable.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 11:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 01, 2015, 10:53:05 pmDoesn't need to be fully automatic. Things like LiFePO4 and 4.35V Li-Ions can be hidden in the advanced settings. I understand this is what the SkyRC MC3000 does in "dummy" mode. Also the NiteCore chargers with LiFePO4 support require you to press a mode button for a longer period to enter LiFePO4 mode.Quote from: IanB on December 01, 2015, 10:53:05 pmDummy mode for dummy users. Advanced features hidden. No sweat.If this works for a ~30€ NiteCore D2/D4, it should work even better for a more expensive charger that the normal customer would never buy anyway.Quote from: IanB on December 01, 2015, 10:53:05 pmWell, there are tons of smart loaders with microcontrollers etc. on the market. Even for multiple chemistries there are dozens (small selection given above). Most of them wouldn't need a lot of additional development effort to make them very good choices. It's just that their developers decided e.g. to use a crappy display, limit the charge current too much, screwed up at least one charge algorithm or implemented bugs in the capacity calculation and didn't care to fix them etc.Quote from: IanB on December 01, 2015, 10:53:05 pmIf I wasn't sitting on a pile of unfinished project, unread books, unwatched movies, unplayed games etc. I could surely consider this. Then again, it's unlikely I would ever finish in my lifetime and even if, it would be a bulky mess and far away from that convenient 4 slot device I desire.Anyway, I'm somewhat hopeful that SkyRC gets it done this time with the MC3000. Previews look promising at least.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 09:05:14 am
content: Just now the Opus is the best, the pulsing is only significant for smaller cells.But in a few weeks a lot of people will get their hands on the SkyRC charger. This charger can handle just about any cell and do anything with the cell, but that has lead to a more complex user interface than most chargers (Generally it is easier to use than a hobby charger, even though it has more functions).It also looks like the SkyRC will be significant more precise than any other analyzing charger and for people with precision equipment it is possible to do their own calibration.I will publish a review of it in a few weeks (I have been testing on it for some time already):http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 12:22:54 pm
content: It is in fact a very hard task to design an analyzer battery charger for the amount of money a customer might pay. These chargers are in the ~20 USD price range, for that you need an LCD a plug pack, connectors, a custom molded case, microcontroller, buck converter... If you calculate 10-12 USD just for these, than you have a 2 USD budget for an analog frontend and the charger itself.I see the lack of features, sometimes the dodgyness and the not proper implementation as necessary, otherwise the price would skyrocket.I wonder, would you pay 5-10 times as much for a universal charger with a cal certificate and proper implementation?

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 12:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 02, 2015, 12:22:54 pmThe SkyRC is about $100 and you do not get any cal certificate.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 02:01:24 pm
content: Quote from: HKJ on December 02, 2015, 12:30:02 pmI assume that you are talking about the MC3000QuoteThey say it is calibrated. Seems to be a ~0.1% accurate charger.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 02:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 02, 2015, 02:01:24 pmYes.Quote from: NANDBlog on December 02, 2015, 02:01:24 pmThe normal display is with 10mV resolution and it looks to match a DMM very well (There is not much internal voltage drop).There is a 15 watt power limit on the discharge, i.e. you cannot use 2A for all the supported battery types.It has a very nice LiIon charge curve:

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 06:26:06 pm
content: Ah, the godfather of batteries and chargers showed upActually, they lured me into (pre-)ordering this damned thing (mainly because your first look was so positive) even though it's a bit more expensive than what I was originally looking for.Let's see when they ship it - I kind a hoped to receive it before Xmas but they're still taking orders while they don't seem to be able to ship yet.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 06:38:40 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 02, 2015, 06:26:06 pmI already like it so much I have ordered one more.Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 02, 2015, 06:26:06 pmRumour has it that they are going to ship within a few days, but if you has ordered with normal slow shipping it is doubtful that it will arrive before Xmas.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 06:55:26 pm
content: Yeah, it becomes less likely with every day that passes. Then again, I have seen everything between 6 days and 6 weeks for shipments from China.My main concern is that this will most likely get stuck in customs and I'll have to discuss with the ladies in the customs office how this thing fits in their regulations...And European customs regulations are nothing a sane person would like to discuss.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 07:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 02, 2015, 06:55:26 pmEspecially because they varies from country to country. I usual just has to pay, then I get the stuff the next day.

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 04:39:46 pm
content: The mc3k product is probably not very relevant in this electronics community but for flashlight users with serious need for recharged batteries it can save some time thanks to the 3amps charging rate per slot.Here a youtube video which tests consistency of voltage and current measurements on the MC3000:YOUTUBE:SkyRC MC3000 check accuracy *REVISITED*

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:52:36 pm
content: I think mine arrived in Europe yesterday. Now the interesting part begins (customs).Quote

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 11:17:40 am
content: Against all odds, it arrived today and I didn't even need to mess with customs

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 01:22:39 pm
content: Congrats to the receipt of the shipment without trouble!Let us know how you like the product overall.It takes some time to get used to the UI .. but after having verinnerlicht it, it should be some fun O0

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 01:35:12 pm
content: I saw Julien Ilett had the skyRC on his channel. More of a first look.Not sure I can afford $100 charger =)

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 02:29:20 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on December 18, 2015, 01:35:12 pmWell, I paid ~85€ which a bit less than the street price of a SkyRC NC2500 which is far inferior (e.g. only NiMH/NiCd). I would assume the street price for the MC3000 (including VAT) will probably reach 150€. So it was quite a good deal.Of course it's discussible if someone really needs an analyzing charger with app control. I must admit I'm a bit obsessed with checking the capacity of my batteries, so I feel I doAnd I love the idea to be able to configure things like trickle charge and default current (hope so, have to try it out).However, a proper NiMH charger and a proper Li-Ion charger easily cost ~40€ each, so that's notthatmuch cheaper.Besides, I already own a 99€ charger only for NiMH/NiCD/NiZn and I love it:Charge Manager 2016. I'm not sure yet if I will completely switch to the SkyRC also for my Eneloops or keep using the CM2106.@dinoboy:All my batteries are charged right now, so it may take some time until I'll really use it. Just played around a bit. I also need to download the app etc.Anyway it looks pretty solid and I'm looking forward to give it a try.

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:34:02 pm
content: CM2016 must be nice, i think it is geman engineered product. Very expensive and probably less "fun" than the SkyrcRe the MC3000 a word of caution, do NOT use the official PC Link Software ("PCLS") under Win10 at all. No Win10, no Win7 compatibility modus, nothing. No Win10. The Win7 compatibility modus of Win10 is NOT compatible with PCLS. Win10 is NOT compatible with PCLS. The firmware upgrade feature will brick your charger. I hope that was clear enough for everyone reading this post!Btw if you enjoy logging your charger on the PC screen, there is an alternative software called DataExplorer ("DEX"). It is in beta (for the mc3k support) but already works just fine on MacOS/Linux/Win 32-bit/64-bit. It requires Java JRE 32-bit/64-bit full installation package from Oracle website.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 02:13:42 am
content: OK, in the meantime I charged my 1st batteries. Boring Eneloops. I was surprised to see that there is no Discharge-Charge mode, only Charge-Discharge-Charge.I'm aware that capacity measurement (especially for NiMH) is more accurate when discharging but Discharge-Charge is great to get an impression of the capacitywithout losing much time.Also the Android app doesn't work on my oldish S2. Can't even install it.And honestly the mode selection is very cryptic. It would be extraordinary helpful to give at least a hint which battery type it's for.Regarding firmware update: is there already one? And is Win7 save?Re CM2016: well I'm not so sure about the German engineering there, but it is a great combination of advanced features and great dummy mode.Best thing is that it has an automatic mode which claims to select the current depending on the ability of the battery. So it always starts with 500mA but goes up to 2A.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 07:19:48 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 19, 2015, 02:13:42 amThere is, look for this setting: CYCLE MODE: C>D, D>C>D, D>C, C>D>C

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 09:20:42 am
content: Quote from: HKJ on December 19, 2015, 07:19:48 amI should have switched to "advanced" immediatelyBut hey, I'm an engineer, I don't read manuals.In the "simple" mode, there is a just a cycle mode (D>C>D) but without configuration.Now in the advanced mode there is everything I ever wanted to configure. Sweet.Seems my only concern now is the cryptic program selection.Well, and I guess it would have been possible to jump to to the 1stsensibleprogram when a battery is put in the slot.Currently, the default type for program #1 is LiIon, so if you put a NiMH battery in a slot even in simple mode, a LiIon mode will be selectedwhich results in a voltage warning after a few seconds.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 09:31:22 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 19, 2015, 09:20:42 amWith all the support chemistries and battery sizes it would not really help much, but would often select the wrong entry.And the entry on startup is not the first entry, but the last selected entry.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 09:43:21 am
content: Quote from: HKJ on December 19, 2015, 09:31:22 amTrue, even though a NiMH / LiIon selection would still help in a large percentage of cases.Admittedly though, it wouldn't help for e.g. the LiFePO4 cells I use as they would be detected as LiIon.Anyway, it's probably about time for something like a barcode system to quickly identify battery parameters.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 09:48:01 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 19, 2015, 09:43:21 amThere is not only the chemistry, also the battery size. I have cells with charge current from 50mA to above 3000mA, using a high current on a small cell is not a good idea!

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 10:28:53 am
content: Quote from: HKJ on December 19, 2015, 09:48:01 amYeah, but selecting the mode with the lowest current would always be a safe choice. I'd assume there are also more clever ways to adjust the charge current to the estimated capacity.I still think it would be possible to use the auto detection of the dummy mode without sacrificing anything in advanced mode.Like:- Detect battery voltage- If it fits the last used program, use the last program- If it doesn't fit, choose NiMH or LiIon depending on voltage with according default current (or search for fitting program with lowest current)Still this would select the wrong voltage for some not so common types like LiFePO4 but still better than nothing.Anyway, more urgently, some information regarding the current program should be shown like type and/or voltage/current instead of just "PROGRAM [#1]".With the same 12 characters, it could display e.g. "#1:LiIo 1.5A". It could even scroll the text to show more details like "LiIon charge 4.2V 1A" or so.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 10:37:01 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 19, 2015, 10:28:53 amThis I can agree with you on, I do also complain about it in my review (Will be published in a few days).

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 10:43:34 am
content: Yeah, this would be my biggest concern right now.There is just one other thing that I think is the opposite of intuitive:If you press a slot button, you can select the program. Now if you press enter shortly, you can change the program while pressing it long selects the program.At least for me, it would me much more sensible the other way round: select with a short and change with a long button press.

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 12:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 19, 2015, 02:13:42 amI am on the run, so i'll just comment on the FW question:Yes, there is an update available, but the update procedure doesn't seem to work reliably on all Windows OS. Reports of bricked chargers with Win10, Win7 compatibility modue, and even Win7 exist, so i am asking the company to pull all files from the web, both the PC Link Software (which works great on my WinXP system) and the firmware binary from the download server.Do NOT update or try to update your firmware. It is unsafe at this point in time. It's weekend, so the online files can't be pulled right now, too bad.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 12:26:51 pm
content: Sounds grim. I hope they can sort this out.I figure the microcontroller is an STM32, so reprogramming should be possible through JTAG - if there is a connector somewhere. But doesn't look like it...

author: Emo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 01:05:34 pm
content: OK, I can confirm a working firmware update on win 7. I do have some problem however connecting to the iPhone app with BT.Charging info and graphs are very nice. Still a lot to figure out on this very versatile charger

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 11:09:01 am
content: In the meantime, I tested the MC3000 quite a bit more. All in all, it's an amazing charger and I don't regret buying it at all.I love the amount of the configuration options and information it displays during charging, especially the internal resistance.There are some issues though which might or might not be possible to fix in future firmware versionsThere is no power switch and apparently no auto power off either. I wonder if it's possible to implement an auto power off after a selectable time.Also the display light control could be more intelligent (like switching on when a battery is inserted).When you do a discharge-charge cycle, you can only see the discharged capacity before the charging starts.When discharging 2 Li-Ion cells with ~800mA each, the device quickly reaches >50° and the fan kicks in. Which is much too small and quite a bit annoying.Good thing is that when discharging NiMH cells, the fan stays off (tried with 3 Eneloops discharged with 600mA).As discussed before, the display of the currently selected program leaves to be desired. Maybe it would be possible to name your programs through the PC program or app.Some of the interface choices seem a bit weird. E.g. as discussed before, to select a program you need a long button press but to change it a short one.Also pressing the stop button is used to leave/quit some menus but also stops the current program in others without warning.Something as important as canceling a running program should need a long button press or even a confirmation.The Android app only works on relatively new Android versions (like >4.3) while e.g. the app for the NC2500 also works with older versions.

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 01:41:20 pm
content: "There is no power switch and apparently no auto power off either. I wonder if it's possible to implement an auto power off after a selectable time." — Sorry, i can't comment. And even if it were possible (feasible), it doesn't mean that the team would decide in favor of it. To cut my non-comment short, i don't think that this will ever happen."Also the display light control could be more intelligent (like switching on when a battery is inserted)." — it is already on the to-dolist, thanks"When you do a discharge-charge cycle, you can only see the discharged capacity before the charging starts." — in CYCLE mode, e.g. "D>C, N=3", the SOV (did you read the manual and learn the abbreviations and glossary?) will show the discharged capacities of all 3 cycles. The very final routine is Charge, DCDCD, so TOV will finish by displaying the charged capacity. If you need to see the other 2 charged capacities, they're only available on the PC monitor."When discharging 2 Li-Ion cells with ~800mA each, the device quickly reaches >50° and the fan kicks in. Which is much too small and quite a bit annoying." — I need to check that, but it sounds about right. *FYI* SysTemp maxes out on my unit at around 83°C (displayed value) at full discharge load."As discussed before, the display of the currently selected program leaves to be desired. Maybe it would be possible to name your programs through the PC program or app." — you prefer cryptic naming, i prefer thing as they are. I don't believe that things will change in this regard, sorry."Some of the interface choices seem a bit weird. E.g. as discussed before, to select a program you need a long button press but to change it a short one.Also pressing the stop button is used to leave/quit some menus but also stops the current program in others without warning.Something as important as canceling a running program should need a long button press or even a confirmation." — thanks for your opinion. The operation of the UI with the long and short pressing of the buttons (like ENTER or STOP) are, in the end, a matter of opinion and taste, custom and practice. there will never be agreement. i will always like and prefer the way it is."The Android app only works on relatively new Android versions (like >4.3) while e.g. the app for the NC2500 also works with older versions." — afaik the coding of the Android version 1.0 didn't start until recently, it is super unstable and crashes right away. they are working on improved versions. tbh shoppers should not count on great apps for the charger. hauptaugenmerk was invested in the development of great electronics, mechanics, and firmware. and again tbh, i never use the app. I do appreciate the existence of DEX which is an attractive alternative logging software for the device.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 02:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: dinoboy on December 21, 2015, 01:41:20 pmFor the protocol: in idle with display light off, the MC3000 still needs slightly less than 1.4W. With light on, it's about 2W, the power supply alone needs around 0.3W.It's not catastrophic, but also considering aging etc., this means for me that I'll have to plug/unplug it every time I use it.Quote from: dinoboy on December 21, 2015, 01:41:20 pmI read the manual, but for sure won't use these acronyms as they are unreadable for anyone who didn'tjustread the manual. Actually I found this use of acronyms quite annoying. Bad style IMHO.Anyway, I'm quite sure that there was only the charged capacity shown in the "slot operation view" during charging in a D>C cycle. Then again, maybe I'm mistaken. I'll try this again.Quote from: dinoboy on December 21, 2015, 01:41:20 pmAdmittedly, about 6W need to be cooled this way or the other yet I wonder if another cooling strategy (e.g. air tunnel side to side) with a slightly larger cooler would have decreased temperature and noise level.Quote from: dinoboy on December 21, 2015, 01:41:20 pmQuite the opposite. I think I made clear that I don't like the cryptic naming like "PROGRAM [#1]" and I'd rather had something meaningful.To quote myself: With the same 12 characters, it could display e.g. "#1:LiIo 1.5A". It could even scroll the text to show more details like "LiIon charge 4.2V 1A" or so.Then again, if I could name my programs to something like "EneloopAA_DC" this would be also fine for me.Quote from: dinoboy on December 21, 2015, 01:41:20 pmStill, it's not intuitive and you should consider that you're probably already too used to the current weirdness to judge it fairly.For sure nobody would expect that a common use (select) needs the more specific button press (long) compared to the uncommon use case (edit).I would maybe agree if selecting the program would immediately start it, but you need to confirm it with another press of theenterbutton.Quote from: dinoboy on December 21, 2015, 01:41:20 pmHonestly, this seems to be a strange attitude. If a bluetooth module is added to a device and "app control" is part of the advertised features, you would expect that at least some attention is paid to deliver a stable app.

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 04:05:30 pm
content: "It's not catastrophic, but also considering aging etc., this means for me that I'll have to plug/unplug it every time I use it." — So you're measuring a total of 1.7W standby power, i see. I don't know how much other notable 4-bay chargers consume. But personally i put them all away from my desktop when i don't use them. The next manual revision will include the note 'When not in use, remove all batteries, unplug from main, disconnect the adapter, put everything neatly away in storage.', it will ensure that no dust or humidity reaches the device also during non-usage time."I'm quite sure that there was only the charged capacity shown in the "slot operation view" during charging in a D>C cycle. Then again, maybe I'm mistaken. I'll try this again." — I'll try too. So far i've been trying my favorite CYCLE mode only, which is "C>D"."Admittedly, about 6W need to be cooled this way or the other yet I wonder if another cooling strategy (e.g. air tunnel side to side) with a slightly larger cooler would have decreased temperature and noise level." — Of course. It needs to be seen if the majority of buyers receives the product well, finds it likable and is really wishing for a Mk II release (2018) with particular hardware improvements such as bigger fan, redesigned heat sink, and such. Total dimensions will increase then too, naturally. Mk I (2015) is to the maker's liking im stillen kammerlein, Mk II (if every materialized) will be adapted to the WWW feedback on the Mk I."With the same 12 characters, it could display e.g. "#1:LiIo 1.5A". It could even scroll the text to show more details like "LiIon charge 4.2V 1A" or so. Then again, if I could name my programs to something like "EneloopAA_DC" this would be also fine for me." — I totally get the idea, even if i am not fond of such naming at all. Confuses me, doesn't look neat. Maybe a new option could be created in GSV, "Naming: {Default|Parameter}", such that both naming methods are available. I've added it as idea to the list"Honestly, this seems to be a strange attitude. If a bluetooth module is added to a device and "app control" is part of the advertised features, you would expect that at least some attention is paid to deliver a stable app." — Yesyes we would all agree. It's shaming that there is a dazzling gap between app quality/evolution status (immature) and firmware version (mature). Oh well.Anyway, let's accept and appreciate what we've got so far! The product has been meeting my expectations, happy camper here. O0

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 05:41:22 pm
content: Did I say I'm unhappy? No way!Anyway regarding charged/discharged capacity: I just tried it again with a nearly fully charged Eneloop. There is just one "Capacity" value displayed in the slot operation view. It's the same value as displayed in the total overview. And both represent the discharged capacity during discharging and the charged capacity during charging. So as I said: as soon as the charging starts, the discharged capacity is lost.I still have the firmware version v1.02 btw.

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 06:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 21, 2015, 05:41:22 pmYou're talking about the case "D>C, N=1"? Oki, now i am getting why the firmware does that. It is programmed in such a way that it displays the capacities of full charges (or full discharges) only, not the capacities of partial charges (or partial discharges) from the very beginning of a "Cycle", the initial charge transfer routine.So, technically, from the coder's standpoint, the behavior is logical/correctI can see 2 solutions:1) If you're interested in the discharge capacity, you could use Discharge mode, "D" or "D>". (the symbol ">" may represent a resting phase, D.RESTING). Or:2) The fw author changes the code such that the initial partial charge (or partial discharge) in the two exceptional cases "D>C, N=1"and "C>D, N=1"…nah scratch the latter… only 1 exceptional case: "D>C, N=1", is displayed as "Cycle 1" in slot operation view.Thinking about it .. you're right, this could be regarded as bug because the Cycle counter should be assigned to the discharge routines (no matter what) and not to the full routines. This finding has been noted before and also listed. Thanks!

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 07:32:15 pm
content: Ok, thanks.Again, it's not a showstopper, but I usually charge my Eneloops with D>C when they are already reported to be low. My Charge Master 2016 calls this mode "Check".The main idea of discharging before is of course to get a an idea of the battery's capacity after charging (instead of just the capacity that was charged).Yet I find it also interesting to see how much capacity was actually left.Another thing: I understand that there is no way of using an altered program without saving it before. Is this correct?Like as I said I usually use "D>C" for my AA Eneloops which I now stored as program #1. I use #2 for AAA Eneloops, #3 for LiIon, #4 for LiFePO4 in the same way.Now sometimes I just want to charge without the discharge cycle first (e.g. since I think the battery is still more or less fully charged). Is there any way to select program #1,alter it (Cycle -> Charge) and use it without saving it first?If not (as I assume): I think it's nice to be able to save default programs but it's not so nice to not be able to use altered programs without saving them.This forces you to have a separate program for the same battery but different use cases and this can quickly become a bit of a mess.Maybe it would have been better to separate the mode (cycle/charge etc.) from the battery type.Most of the parameters of a program are actually parameters for a certain battery (charge/discharge current, cutoff voltage etc.) while a mode (charge, discharge, cycle) is independent of the battery.

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 09:29:42 pm
content: You could reuse  as "temporary program" by over-writing this single memory spot over and over.i like the following scenario:Say you have small set of favorite programs … which you really don't want to see changed. ("write-protected programs")All slots are empty.You want to charge 1 battery and insert it in #4.Because of 'last mode memory' TOV shows that  is assigned to #4.You click on SNB1 to enter SPV for #1 (which is empty).You change the program number to say , click Enter and then alter the settings of  without saving.However in the last row, SAVE TO, you long-press on "SAVE TO ". So basically youaresaving the edits. stays intact, unaltered.Yes, technically you created "a new" program, , but think of it more like overwriting an existing memory spot, or computer file.Now use it: Since #4 was pre-assigned with  and your battery is in #4, all you need to do is 1 click on Enter or 1 depress on SNB4.The need for saving, even if it's under the same name, compares well to PC behavior:EXAMPLE 1you have on original write-protected HTML-file and you're editing it under the new nametest.htmin a text editor while it is also being viewed in Internet Explorer 8. The edited HTML-contents cannot be viewed in IE8 by hitting F5, unless you have hit the SAVE-button in the text editor (test.htm,test.htm.bak). Saving is a must, before IE8 can process the edited file. But instead of creating different filestest1.htm,test2.htm, etc., we work with 1 file only. And it is a temporary file. After we're done with the html-code test, we are free to delete thetest.htmfile.EXAMPLE 2you temporarily save a daily funny JPEG from an original web source underdeleteme.jpgon your HDD (purpose: sharing new imgur URL or as email attachment with friends on the same day), knowing that you can delete the file any time in future when you accidentally encounter it on the HDD to clear space. instead of downloading 100 funny JPEG's under their original names (1 JPEG per 1 day, that's 100 jpeg's in 100 days, geesh!), you always save the new image under the same old namedeleteme.jpgbefore "using" the file for its intended purpose, here: resharing with friends. This is also a great example of the temporary character of a file we "created" (for temporary use) and which we would overwrite at the next opportunity.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 09:41:57 pm
content: Of course there are workarounds. It's always better if no workaround are needed.Regarding the discharged current: actually I just noticed that when the program is finished (discharge and charge), the "Capacity" display toggles between "Capacity" and "Cycle 1" where the latter is the discharged capacity.So it works, but only after the program is finished.I'd think though that two separate lines for charged and discharged capacity would be a bit more readable. And of course the value(s) from the last step(s) could be already displayed before the full program is finished.

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2015, 11:39:15 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 21, 2015, 09:41:57 pmI am just explaining how it is:For an ongoing multi-cycle program, i.e. CYCLE program with N>1, the discharge history of the completed cycles (completed 1st cycle, completed 2nd cycle, ..) is available in SOV. For the ongoing cycle one needs to wait until it has completed (C>D, or D>C), then its discharged capacity will be available too, once the program has entered the next cycle. One doesn't need to wait until the entire program has finished to see the history of discharged capacities.Why this is so can be traced back to the software architecture (FOR loops and WHILE whatnot) and i won't bug the maker about making structural code changes in his regard. Partial history viewingisimplemented, and it is good enough. In fact i had made the same observation months ago and i asked 'where is the value, why is that so?' and he explained. I thanked for the explanation and accepted it and moved on.Anyway, thanks for your interest in MC3000 matters,time for me to move back to where i'm comingfrom,you can find other mc3k users and me there for furthers

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2015, 09:18:44 am
content: I have published a review of the MC3000 charger:http://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Charger%20SkyRC%20MC3000%20UK.html

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2015, 10:41:36 am
content: Gosh, I guess I don't want to know how much time you've spent on this.Anyway, the teardown confirms that the thermal design leaves a bit to be desired. Then again, it doesn't really concern me so much as the fan is off during my normal charging needs and even when discharging Eneloops.Still I'd wish a bit more passion would be put into the PC software, the app and the GUI. However dinoboy's comments make me think this is a somewhat futile hope ("should not count on great apps for the charger", "good enough").

author: dinoboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2015, 12:01:40 pm
content: Quote from: HKJ on December 22, 2015, 09:18:44 amThanks so much for the review HKJ, i am going to study it over the next few days! O0Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 21, 2015, 02:42:56 pmHere is a very acceptable solution for the standby power consumption, if you prefer to leave the unused 'machine' on the desktop:Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on December 22, 2015, 10:41:36 amDEX is compatible with MC3000. A very passionate project!http://www.nongnu.org/dataexplorer/I am testing the latest beta version. Works really well so far. So stay tuned for the official beta release!