EEVblog #696 - Apple Lisa Retro Computer Teardown - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2014, 11:10:13 pm
content: Dave tears down the 1983 vintage Apple Lisa, the first graphical user interface machine that pre-dates the Macintosh.Datasheets:Apple Lisa repair guide:ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/applelisa/Lisa_Do-It-Yourself_Guide.pdfR6500 processor:http://www.datasheet4u.com/datasheet-pdf/Rockwell/R6504/pdf.php?id=527509AM2148 static RAMhttp://www.usbid.com/assets/datasheets/28/9DB91CC103B94D879CEBC0A6E86697E5.pdfAMD AM9512 floating point math co-processor:http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/amd/_dataSheets/Am9511A-9512FP_Processor_Manual.pdfMOSTEK MK4564http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164/datasheet_MK4564-15_and_MK4564-20.pdfSwitching regulator:http://www.ic72.com/pdf_file/r/66494.pdf

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 12:18:58 am
content: Maybe related for "rescuing" old Apple machines with long-gone motherboards:http://spritesmods.com/?art=macsearmMaybe it's a great fit with your FPGA-project VGA video idea, but instead use this (because if you compare the two, a VGA monitor seems kinda boring doesn't it?)

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 01:56:08 am
content: Quote from: hans on December 25, 2014, 12:18:58 amMan, that dude is a genius. I've been following him for a few years and he never ceases to amaze me.Sent from my Tablet

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 02:30:40 am
content: There's a small chance that may be my old machine - or one of about five that I borrowed-in for different jobs (when I was living in Sydney).I'll see if I can think of any clues that may be left inside.I traded it back in about 1985/6? for a PC clone (w/ NEC V20? overclock chip) that was so much more usefui.(But the Lisa probably covered it's cost (abt $10Kthen) doing tech documentation, and on-screen duty in a few TVCs... !)P.S> If you know the history of this unit - I recall that I traded the Lisa/PC swap with a guy that lived down in Sutherland shire...)Added: IIRC - my Lisa was built in Ireland, but I could be wrong.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 03:33:50 am
content: Nice video, but I notice you're doing this Lortonesque thing of doing video splices midsentence. I find that really annoying, much prefer single-take Dave, even with the uhms, ahs and occasional tangent. You're not a robot, you don't have to deliver perfect narration.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 05:25:34 am
content: Quote from: hans on December 25, 2014, 12:18:58 amIt does indeed!

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 09:51:10 am
content: I've seen corrosion like that. Cat pee...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 10:15:23 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 25, 2014, 02:30:40 amI got it from a guy on the north shore who I think got it from a guy in Melbourne.

author: dkozel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 10:25:47 am
content: Hi Dave et al,The Carnegie Mellon University Computer Club created an OPL3 soundcard for the Lisa 2 two years ago and wrote an audio visual demo program for it. We lugged it from Pennsylvania to Helsinki, Finland for the Assembly competition. Its a really fun platform to work with, the high resolution of the screen and low CPU clock speed means that doing large graphics changes frame to frame was challenging. We also built an FPGA shim and emulator for the graphics chip to extract the raw digital signal and output DVI. You can see a digital capture in the video below. Here's a photo of the soundcard, the expandability of the system made it possible to add it in without ridiculous difficulty.Yours is in pretty unfortunate condition! Deoxit is really the way to go with those corroded connectors, but with that degradation nothing to be done.Video of the demo:http://capped.tv/cmucc-introducing_the_ilisaDescription of the demo:http://wiki.club.cc.cmu.edu/org/lisahacking/2012%20Demo/NFO%20FileDescription of the soundtrack creation:http://coda.s3m.us/2012/08/06/creation-of-the-ilisa-demo-soundtrack/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 10:47:46 am
content: Quote from: dkozel on December 25, 2014, 10:25:47 amNice work!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 04:51:56 pm
content: The Am9511/Am9512 takes me back. I put those into a few low volume things, but I don't remember ever seeing a high volume application for them, which might have justified their NRE.The machine must have been made during the period where they started to move manufacturing offshore. I'm pretty sure any board labelled Sanmina was made in Asia.Steve Jobs didn't learn a thing from the Lisa. He later had the greatest thing in the computing industry with the NeXT machines, and set their pricing so they sunk without trace.

author: tpw_rules
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 04:58:48 pm
content: Folklore.orghas a lot of really interesting anecdotes and stories from the people who did development on both the Lisa and the original Macintosh.For example, here'sa story on how difficult it was to get Steve Jobs to admit the Lisa's Twiggy drive was a pile of crap and that the Sony drive was necessary for the Macintosh to survive. It tends to more cover the original Macintosh but there's a lot of interesting stuff about the internal competition and why the Lisa is what it is. The whole Made in Singapore deal might be like how they do nowadays and label their computers as "Assembled in California," but all the components are made elsewhere.

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 08:00:43 pm
content: Dave, getting this up and running again looks like a nice project for the new assistant you are hiring.I can imaging a weekly update would make for interesting viewing. Perhaps first step would be to throw everything in the dishwasherWould be a shame not to restore such a beauty back into to working order.

author: max666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 09:29:06 pm
content: Oh wow. It's your fault Dave, if I have a corrosion nightmare tonight!I can't imagine how you could repair those card edge connectors, with the entire traces being eaten away?No offence to anyone who likes to see this one up and running again, but I hope you're not planning on restoring this very sick puppy, Dave.I would rather see you hunt down and fix electronic faults, like repairing theHP35670A DSAfor example.

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 09:36:25 pm
content: Yet another vintage computer falls victim to an on-board NiCd battery... As bad as it looks, it is actually repairable, but repairing the damage takes a considerable amount of time.Dave, I know you stay very busy, but could you stabilize the Lisa's boards so they won't corrode further, so that you or someone else could have a better chance at repairing them in the future? I briefly mentioned the technique in theAcorn Archimedes A3000 thread. The links I provided to the classiccmp email archives don't currently work, butthis linkto archive.org does. Someone found a Gridcase with a board that lookedlike thisand used this technique to clean it up.Basically, you clean the entire affected area (multiple boards in the case of this Lisa) with white vinegar and scrub at it lightly with a toothbrush (even get down into the card edge sockets, although they will likely need to be replaced later). The NiCd material that leaks from the batteries is highly alkaline, so the vinegar, being a mild acid, will neutralize it. You then need to rinse the boards with lots of water in a sink to make sure you flush out all the vinegar because any remaining vinegar would also be mildly corrosive. Flushing with vinegar and scrubbing away any buildup will stabilize the boards and stop further corrosion. Simply cleaning with isopropyl won't neutralize the battery mess and even if you clean off a lot of it, without neutralizing, the boards will corrode up again.The next step, if you wanted to go a little further with cleaning, would be to lightly scrub the corroded areas using a baking soda and water paste with a toothbrush, followed by another water rinse. This will remove the bulk of the surface corrosion on any exposed copper traces, component leads, etc. and also helps neutralize any remaining vinegar.The cleaning/stabilization technique is very simple, but a little messy, so you'll want to clean the boards in a sink. Some people claim you need deionized water for this sort of thing, but I've been using tap water to do this for decades and have yet to have any issues with it.As for the discoloration and tarnish under the solder mask, once the board is neutralized with white vinegar, it shouldn't corrode further. Unless there is already a break in a trace, those discolored spots are best left alone.This companysells replacement card edge connector fingers and the tools necessary to install them. Maybe they would be willing to send Dave a full kit and/or take on these Lisa boards as an extreme repair example? The examples I've seen of their in-house work have been excellent, but it is an expensive service. These type of repairs are almost always going to be reserved for boards which are simply not replaceable.The phrase "Not economical to repair" doesn't really come into play for stuff like this Lisa. This is basically a restoration project for a serious collector, and not something an electronic repair tech could justify repairing at an hourly rate. Unlike a repair tech, a collector can spend as much time on it as he would like.

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 09:51:25 pm
content: Quote from: Tothwolf on December 25, 2014, 09:36:25 pmI'd think you have to remove the solder mask in these large ares to make sure there is still some copper there, then use chemicals to stop the corrosion and repair any questionable traces and finally seal the copper again with some solder mask. It's a very laborious task. I highly doubt Dave will have the required patience, but I think a nice side project for his new assistant

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 10:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: jaxbird on December 25, 2014, 09:51:25 pmThat would likely be a poor use of the assistants time, because all we'd get out of it is one repair video for many dozens of hours of time/money investment

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2014, 10:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 25, 2014, 10:13:15 pmFair enough, although it could produce an interesting series on how to restore old equipment, I'm sure you have quite a few vintage geeks among your viewers..Anyway, if not viable, maybe try to find someone on this board who would do the job out of pure love of vintage computers and a potentially popular thread. The Apple Lisa is a classic as you said, would be a treat to see it boot up again, even if you have to replace the hard drive with some modern magic.

author: Tothwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 01:44:38 am
content: Quote from: jaxbird on December 25, 2014, 09:51:25 pmI've repaired 100s of battery damaged boards and very rarely did I need to scrape away the solder mask. The discolored spots are just tarnish/oxidization of the surface of the copper trace just under the solder mask. Tarnish under the solder mask is really more of just a cosmetic blemish and will not affect the conductivity of the copper trace itself. What seems to happen is that there are microscopic holes or weak spots in the solder mask and when the batteries leak/vent, it tarnishes the surface of the copper.Unless the solder mask is actually bubbling up and peeling or flaking off the copper, messing with it will cause more harm than good. If the solder mask is peeling, then that probably means the solder mask wasn't applied well and battery electrolyte actually got in between the copper and solder mask. In that case, the baking soda paste and toothbrush technique I mentioned is likely to remove any loose solder mask anyway, so you probably wouldn't have to scrape it.

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 02:02:16 am
content: Quote from: Tothwolf on December 26, 2014, 01:44:38 amSounds encouragingI'm sure you could convince Dave to send you the CPU board etc for repair if you are interested in doing the work, sounds like you have exactly the very specialized skill and needed experience to bring this classic piece of computer history back to lifeWould enjoy seeing the old lisa MC68000 tick again

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 05:06:45 pm
content: An observation from my girlfriend who was listening, "does this guy ever pause to breath in?"Myself, I prefer the fast pace of delivery, for example the technical content on TRX Bench is very good but the guy sends me to sleep because he is so s-l-o-w.

author: muffenme
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 10:21:42 pm
content: Dave, could you at lease take picture of each board so we can see how bad it is. You could with the right info just recreate a new board and any good IC off the old board and just replace the cheep part. It take time is the only with this project. Do a fresh new board, because it would be to hard to retrace the old board.There are some Apple Lisa board on ebay.Apple Lisa Widget Servo Board-Part # 6770109Chttp://www.ebay.ca/itm/Apple-Lisa-Widget-Servo-Board-Part-6770109C-/140892889296?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item20cddee0d0Apple Lisa Widget Read/Write Board-Part # 677-0104http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Apple-Lisa-Widget-Read-Write-Board-Part-677-0104-/140892890270?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item20cddee49eApple Lisa Widget Controller Board Assembly-Part # 677-0110Ehttp://www.ebay.ca/itm/Apple-Lisa-Widget-Controller-Board-Assembly-Part-677-0110E-/140892891892?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item20cddeeaf4Apple Lisa Widget Controller Board Assembly-Part # 677-0108http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Apple-Lisa-Widget-Controller-Board-Assembly-Part-677-0108-/140892893135?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item20cddeefcfworse thing is you could sell the memory and get about $160 each going by what this guy selling his 512k memoryhttp://www.ebay.ca/itm/Apple-Lisa-512K-RAM-Board-Tested-Guaranteed-Working-/140908260770?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item20cec96da2Good luck on this project Dave and have a Merry Christmas and happy New Year.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2014, 07:55:14 am
content: Probably the best to do with that case is to take one of the dumpster monitors that fit, mill the bezel to fit and then build a mini ATX board into it.Interesting thing is the PSU is actually a multiple input voltage one, with a set of jumpers to select 115 or 230V input selectable on the board. Nice decoupling caps there, with the old ceramic chip in glass types, though those were even more famous than tantalum for growing a short and burning a hole through the board as a failure mode. the yellow dipped chip types were also very prone to doing that. The fault was instigated the same way as for tantalum types, growing slowly with time from an ESD incident at some time that broke down the insulation, or from thermal shock during assembly.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2014, 09:29:19 pm
content: fix: solid 3-10 hours, stripping chips from corroded areas, cleaning everything, reconstructing broken traces, now soldermask, putting back cleaned/replaced parts. FORGET about cute kludgy desoldering methods like quickchip or cutting pins (you will spend 30 minutes per chip or further destroy the board), hotgun + lots of flux is the way to goor just try to stop corrosion neutralizing that shit with some chemistry (vinegar?) and preserve whole computer as its bound to raise in value as an important artefact from computer history. Apple might of made couple of hundred thousands, but they destroyed most of them.5MHz was supposedly due to terrible pcb layout and custom fragile mmu design. For comparison ~5MHz is what you can reach on a proto board with jumper wires on m68K.ps: retrogamemodz would fix it no problem (and that acorn from a year ago)

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2014, 10:01:25 pm
content: Regarding the 5MHz issue...When I was in my teens I had bought an original Compaq at a used computer store for $20. I put an NEC V20 in it and added an 8MHz crystal. Rather I cut the old crystal out, soldered in 2 wires that were about a foot long and soldered the 8MHz Crystal to the other end.Now that I understand things a bit more, I am surprised it ever worked like that.I had also installed an original IBM 10MB Full Height drive in it with a Xebec controller. The current draw would overheat the power supply and it would go into a thermal shutdown, so I spliced in a 125MM 120V fan and screwed it to the side of the case where the power supply vent holes were.I repaired a corroded Sun 5 keyboard membrane with a conductive ink pen, I just drew on top of all the traces on the plastic film until all the keys worked.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2014, 10:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: muffenme on December 26, 2014, 10:21:42 pmIt would take alotof time, which is my most precious commodity.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2014, 10:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on December 27, 2014, 10:01:25 pmI did this with my Tandy 1000. But I had to build an add-on board that got the various clock phases right.Circuit was published in EA or ETI somewhere at some point.Ah, here it is:http://youtu.be/av5NQ_3mW9A?t=5m45s

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2014, 11:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2014, 10:42:34 pmThe V20 I had was one I bought several years earlier and installed it in my Tandy 1000HX which was already 8MHz but apparently the V20 was a little faster. Initially I had bought a V30 (8086 clone) not knowing they weren't pin compatible but it didn't work.Come to think of it, it wasn't a 8Mhz crystal in the Compaq, it was a 20. It originally had a 14.7 Mhz crystal that was /3 for the CPU and bus. The 20MHz crystal was the next speed up I could find that wasn't going to overclock the processor.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2014, 11:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on December 27, 2014, 10:01:25 pmafair original 8086/8088 required somewhat weird 1/3 duty cycle on its clock, this is why intel provided special 8284 clock generatorV20 was fine with 50% duty, but other parts of the system wouldnt work if all you did was a crystal swap,original XT used 14MHz crystal (divided by 3). turbo mod required 20MHz crystal, or 24MHz oscillator and rewiring 8284im so oldedit:bah redundand post, everything is ins dave's video

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2014, 09:28:05 am
content: I think I still have some 8284 chips around, along with the processors.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2014, 05:54:26 pm
content: The memory board marked "Sanmina" was likely produced by Sanmina Corp. who is a custom manufacturer (quite a large presence in N. America) and is still alive and well.http://www.sanmina.com

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2014, 07:43:01 pm
content: I was thinking these boards would make wonderful examples for fundamentals fridays: How to fix circuit boards when you have no choise but do it...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2014, 08:24:34 pm
content: The other board bears a striking resemblance to old HP boards with the colour, layout and matt finish. Must have been made by the same US board fabricator.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2014, 08:49:24 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 29, 2014, 08:24:34 pmVery likely. Sanmina is/was a CM for many. They are HQ'd out of southern CA.

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2015, 01:00:32 am
content: I think we need a vote on how many people would like to see these boards fixes and the original Lisa booting up again:I vote fix it. Doesn't have to be Dave doing the actual work. Could be a distributed effort.

author: sparx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2015, 02:35:23 am
content: Would definately be something I would watch, even if some techniques are useless now with massive 4+ layer boards and SMD whatnot.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2015, 02:40:09 am
content: Quote from: jaxbird on January 01, 2015, 01:00:32 amyou just got outvoted by +40K people that click on a mailbag clip as long as there are tits in the thumbnail

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2015, 02:46:23 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on January 01, 2015, 02:40:09 amMaybe it's because of the knife... nope, you are right the other thumbnails with the knife on it didn't get that many views.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2015, 04:48:15 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on January 01, 2015, 02:46:23 amyephttps://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mailbag+eevblog&search_sort=video_view_countWe are Daves lab rats, he is testing different thumbnails looking for secret YT sauceI fully expect Kinder Surprise thumbnail in the next oneas for voting - democracy leads to idiocracy, aww my balls and pewpewDie, best just leave Dave to decide what he wants to cover

author: jaxbird
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2015, 06:40:49 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on January 01, 2015, 02:40:09 amDude, everyone knows that showing tits doesn't count, no educated male have the strength to resist a pair of tits.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2015, 10:13:54 am
content: I can't believe Dave hired a hot model just for one mailbag clip. YT must be paying well.Sent from my Tablet

author: ssharp
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 04, 2015, 12:38:42 pm
content: I need to dig through my files. I received a certificate from Apple back in 1984 for being one of the original purchasers of the 1st Mac. Given to everyone that bought one in the first 90 days after release. $2495.00 us. Never will forget that a box of 10 400k single sided 3.5" disks cost $49.95. How times have changed.