Charging by the hour is unfair! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2024, 10:35:07 pm
content: Reading another thread on this topic got me thinking about all the things wrong with charging by the hour.Yes, 99% of repairers charge by the hour. But change your point of view to that of a customer. Firstly, charging by the hour encourages the repairer to work as slowly as possible. If the repairer wants to treat themselves to something nice but expensive, all they need to do is slow down and take longer over each repair. Yes, I know that sometimes you have enough work that you don't need to stretch it out, but the customer doesn't know that. All they know is that it is in your interest to work as slowly as possible. So why should they trust you?Secondly, the more incompetent you are, the longer it takes you to do a repair. In other words, the customer pays an incompetent repairer more than a competent one. How is that OK?Thirdly, charging a customer for your time when you have failed to fix something is profoundly unfair. You see, you might charge the customer for your time, but the customer doesn't want your time; that's not what they are interested in. They want their appliance fixing. They are paying for a repair, not for half a day of you farting about and getting nowhere with it. I once had a really tricky intermittent misfire on a car which I couldn't find, so I took it to a technician who had loads of fancy diagnostic equipment and was considered to be a genuine expert. He had a monthly column in a trade magazine. Anyway, he hooked up the car and messed about for two hours before giving up. He charged me for two hours labour - something like £180, I think. I paid up but felt utterly ripped off. I drove the car there with a misfire. Two hours later I drove the car away, still with a misfire, but £180 poorer. I paid out money and got nothing. I was pretty pissed off.These issues are all due to the broken business model repairers use. There is a disconnect between what the customer wants and what you provide. No customer wants to buy your time. A customer wants to buy a repair. It is irrelevant to the customer whether it takes you ten minutes or ten hours - they just want their widget to work and to pay what feels like a fair price.Maybe every job should start with an up-front firm quote to the customer, and should include a no fix / no fee commitment. If that is too restrictive, then give the customer an estimate and say that you will contact them to ask their agreement to proceed if you find you need to charge more for the repair. But again, NO FIX, NO FEE!What say you?

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2024, 11:16:35 pm
content: I do very few repairs, only for select people, since I don't make a living off it, but times are hard, and I can understand that people do not wish to work for hours and not get paid even if they cannot fix it.My general philosophy is to always try to leave the customer happy. To me, that means, that if I cannot fix the problem, I at least perform any other quick fixes/tweaks/cleaning-up while I've got the equipment apart, and if I find I have left-over parts that were intended for the repair, then if appropriate, give them to the customer so they know you were not trying to rip them off, plus, give them your expert advice since if you cannot fix it, your expert advice may be 'it's beyond economic repair' or whatever happens to be the case. People understand that the diagnosis is still valuable even if it cannot be fixed. I've never had anyone get upset because something couldn't be fixed, if I give them insight, and if they learn things from it (and feel they have learned from it), e.g. how to recognize the fault or how to avoid the fault in future.As to whether the engineer calls up the customer to warn them that they are getting nowhere and that they still have to charge for an hour or two, that's for sure the right thing to do, and could form part of the contract, although most people will implicitly do that since very few people want to rip others off. Most people would have no problem to include that in a contract I expect, and if they don't want to do that, then that's a warning sign not to use that engineer.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 12:15:58 am
content: No one knows at the onset what a repair will take. One solution to your issue is a fixed price which will result in a profit for the repairer averaged over all jobs. Would you be happier with this? Would you not complain when the item was returned in a couple of minutes after a reset button was pushed (yes, it sometimes is that easy).

author: JoeyG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 12:30:44 am
content: The best way forward for a repair is to provide a free "*estimate" by spending 15min on the repair issue and getting this back to the customer quickly.With the caveat - that an *estimate is the best educated guess and provide some reasoning around the *estimated review of the issue.(If more issues are found)An experienced repairer (familiar with similar products) will have at least some idea.An experienced and honest repairers (not familiar with the product) will say - I need to look at this in detail and there will be a small assessment cost before the repair cost.Then the customer can make an informed financial/emotional decision - either get it repaired, move to another repairer or put the product in the bin as it is beyond economical repair (it's no point flogging a dead horse).

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 02:15:57 am
content: What's the alternative then? This really just sounds like a moan from a dissatisfied customer to me.If you think your repair tech is going to pad out hours or take forever because they're incompetent, why are you taking your work to them? Their business lives or dies off of recommendations and reputation, so if they have a reputation for taking forever and charging for it, they're not going to last long.They charge by the hour because it is a somewhat representative measure of the needed effort. Often the price of parts is small and the labor involved is most of the work, and they don't pay their bills by making 8 repairs in a day, they pay their bills by repairing things for 8 billable hours a day, so why should they spend time working out prices for every little potential fault in every piece of equipment they service? What about that intermittent fault that takes them 6 hours with specialized equipment to track down to change a $5 part? Are you expected to charge less because it ended up being 'something easy'? What if the customer demands something arbitrary that probably doesn't have to do with repairing the fault? What if the time involved in disassembling, cleaning, troubleshooting, and repairing something really is long enough to be worth more than the cost of the thing being fixed? Is the repairer expected to cap their charge at the price of a new one because the customer didn't realize it may not be worth the effort?I'm not in this business, the only repair work I do is on my own equipment and I only sell it working because I hate how variable the time spent on a repair can be and would be annoyed and probably invest too much time into repairs I thought I could do but ended up not being able to complete, but I understand that they're trying to make a living and need to charge for their work in what seems like a fair way. You don't seem to an alternative pricing structure, let alone one suitable even for a niche repair business where a customer with an outlier won't immediately take advantage of, so why moan? If the repairer you take it to can't give you an idea of what it may cost or what may be wrong from a short initial conversation, or if you don't have confidence that they'll do their job and price you honestly for the hours they actually worked, why are you going to their shop at all?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 02:37:17 am
content: This is a silly rant. If you knew you would only be happy with a "fix it or no charge" service then its on YOU to only enter into an agreement with those terms.Within reason and being legally compliant, a business offering a service can choose whatever terms for that service they please. It's then up to the customer to decide if they want to deal with that business. If you can't find a business that has terms that are acceptable to you, then either you are the problem or you just identified a market and you should start your own business to fill that market.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 04:18:22 am
content: I agree with the OP. I always operated on a no fix, no fee basis, and I always quoted on the job, not the hours. If I were billing on an hourly basis, I would feel a great deal more pressure, especially if the client were watching, as they usually were.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 05:59:00 am
content: Well yeah, that's how a market works. Either the service is good and customers pay for it, or it's bad and word gets around. There might be professional organizations to promulgate some standard of service, while also supporting and defending members, and providing a route for customers to air grievances; but the extent that this arises depends on the level of service, how expensive and risky it is, how commonly people engage with it, etc. Electronics repair generally doesn't have such organizations; auto repair, to some extent; medical practice, generally yes; etc.So, if you can find customers and reviews, or afford to spend a one-off trying the service and see how it goes, that should be your primary plan.Tim

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 06:13:51 am
content: I don't do this anymore but when i did.for any job that's not straight forward.time and materials including the time to source the materials.I was happy to give a rough estimate.If clients wanted a fixed price quote I would super highball it and hope it doesn't happen.from memory i had 3 different hourly rates, depending on how much i liked the client.

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 06:40:35 am
content: The more competent you are the higher your hourly rate.Doubles as an excellent filter.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 07:11:44 am
content: Every now and then I fix things. Mostly older electronics that control equipment, hardly ever with the schematics available. Often there are no replacement boards or these are priced prohibitively.I nearly always attempt these repairs on a 'no cure, no pay' basis. But if cured, I charge by the hour, which means there might be a stiff bill in cases where I need more time to fix an unknown board. This also means I sometimes do not get payed if I fail to repair something. But I recon I always learn from this, which is a form of payment. And I get pretty good in recognizing what I can and cannot repair.My clients seem to like this way of operating as I never get questions about it. And they return

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 09:10:04 am
content: Repairing different equipment on each repair job is time consuming, especially as woody says when there are no schematics available. If you are working from home with less overheads then it's easier to take on such work, but if you have a commercial workshop then you really need to be charging by the hour, regardless of end result. Overheads don't go on hold while you're reverse engineering a tricky schematic.If you can find a device that has a high cost for new item and has a common failure mode, then it's like finding a seam of gold. Then you charge fixed cost for repair rather than per hour, because it takes you 20mins. A friend made good money repairing mitsubushi engine ECUs back in the '90s.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 10:12:23 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on July 01, 2024, 09:10:04 amExactly this. I find that this makes up for losses I might incur on unfix-able stuff. As for overheads, for me repair is a way of utilizing my workshop when I am done with other jobs, but if you have a repair-only shop this might not fly, I don't know.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 10:38:43 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on July 01, 2024, 09:10:04 amUnderstood. But why is that the customer's problem? As I've said before: the customer doesn't care about your overheads - they care about getting their appliance fixed. The customer assumes that you charge enough to cover your costs and salary, but they don't need or want to know about the details. They don't care whether you pay rent or own the place.The problem with charging by the hour is that it looks to the customer like an open-ended money-making racket. The key issue here is thatthe risk is all on the customer,not shared between the two of you. You can sit back and take your time, or you can work quickly, secure in the knowledge that you will take home $200 for every hour spent. Even hours spent reading the newspaper. The customer has no such security - they know you can charge whatever you like (they have no idea how long it really took you).That's why, from the customer's point of view, a firm quotation with no fix/no fee is the only fair billing model.I don't do electronics repairs - I'm a horologist who does repairs clocks and watches. I have two billing models. A lot of my work comes from another clock repairer who prefers to work on larger items like longcase (grandfather) clocks, so he sends me the smaller stuff. He pays me £250 per clock to restore the clock to good working order, and that doesn't vary regardless of what needs doing. So sometimes I might spend a couple of hours on a clock, other times In might spend a couple of days. (Those are the extremes.) The advantage to him is that he knows exactly what he'll be paying me for each clock. The advantage to me is that I don't need to mess about doing quotes or estimates. If I find that I'm not making enough money overall then I will negotiate a higher price per clock.That model is for trade work. For my own customers I will either give a firm quote when they bring it to me, or examine it and ring them back with a quote. At that point they can say either 'yes' or 'no'. If they say yes, then they get a no fix/no fee deal.Occasionally I discover a problem that requires an expensive new part. I then decide whether to eat the cost myself or pass it on. If it's too much I ring the customer and explain their two options: 1/ they can pay the extra and the work will continue; or 2/ they can have the clock back unrepaired and pay nothing (the no fix/no fee part of the deal).To me that seems to be the only fair way of dealing with customers. They don't know my hourly rate, they don't know what overheads I have, they don't even know if I have staff working for me. And that's how it should be: the only thing they care about is how much it'll cost to repair their appliance. And then they can say 'yes' or 'no'.Can you imagine walking into a corner shop and asking "How much is that can of soup?". And the shopkeeper says "Well, because of my overheads I need to make $200 per hour, plus the wholesale cost of the soup, so wait here while I fetch it and we'll see how long it takes me." It would be absurd, but that is what we do to our customers.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 11:00:52 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on June 30, 2024, 10:35:07 pmIn automotive repairs (manufacturers workshops), there are fixed repair costs. Every possible repair has a standardized repair time, timed in minutes or fractions of an hour, resulting in standardized repair costs. So it is in the best interest of the workshop, to have their mechanics well trained and acting fast. If a 2 hour job is done in 1:45 that's free 15 minutes of working time for the shop (the mechanic probably gets a bonus for working faster than expected).Unfortunately, this method only works for high value items. I can't see any possibility to do "budget repairs" on low value items, like most electronics. Fixing things is a luxury thing now. In fact so much so, some governments are now subsidizing repair costs of household items, as most items are (technically) easily fixable, but it is just too expensive, a new item will likely even be cheaper.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 11:24:59 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on July 01, 2024, 11:00:52 amIME they only provide fixed cost quotes when they have high confidence in the estimated costs of doing the work. Go to the garage with intermittent type problems and you'll be paying hourly for them to try and find the fault.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 03:13:30 pm
content: I've done fixed price stuff.Those were Verifone card terminals, so plenty.But even there I didn't have an obligation to fix them all.That was modem era, so lightning was also there.Don't know how beer over terminal is nowadays.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 04:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on July 01, 2024, 11:00:52 amThis is an interesting example. The manufacturer (usually) determines a certain time to do each job, and the dealer is obliged to charge that many hours labour to the customer. Because the hourly rate is known up-front, the customer gets a firm quotation which they can take or leave, and the dealer gets a fair price for the job. "Cam belt change: 3 hours x $200 per hour = $600", and so on.Best of both worlds? Only if the repairer is able to categorise the job up-front, which for electronics gear is more difficult than for a car.Electronics repairers could do what I do for trade clock repairs: just charge a fixed price regardless of the actual fault, and make sure that fixed price is high enough to generate the required income. Oh, and of course it has to be no fix/no fee - that is only fair.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 05:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 04:53:22 pmSure they could. Then you would receive a 4 figures quote for everything because when you turn up with an (to me) unknown device at my desk, I can't know if that fault will take 20 minutes or 20 hours of work to fix. Or you will get a quote for e.g. 2 hours of work - and if it can't be fixed in those 2 hours, too bad for you. Either it won't be fixed and you get your device still broken back - or you will have to pay more for me to continue working on it. It is only fair. I am not a charity but a business. My bills won't pay themselves only because you think it isn't fair.Fixed price works only when the scope of the work is well known ahead of time - such as for those auto mechanics when doing standardized repairs. When a customer comes asking for a tire swap or oil change, you know how much effort is that normally going to be, so it is easy to give a fixed quote. But even there you typically pay an hourly rate + cost of parts and consumables (oil, etc.), just the time how long the task should take is often prescribed by the manufacturer of the vehicle.If the problem is open ended and has to be identified first (which most electronic repairs are), good luck. But feel free to open an electronics repair shop working with fixed prices if you think this is economically workable.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 05:26:41 pm
content: My business experience is timepieces, not electronics. I think there is a distinction because there is a greater diversity in electronics than there is in timepieces. Even watches 200 years old operate on the same principles as a Rolex.I charge by the job with the caveat of needed parts that may not become obvious until after the cleaning process (hole jewels, etc). But I have a very specific niche: aircraft clocks (about 10 models), marine chronometers (3 real variants), and railroad watches.After 40 years, I have a pretty good idea what to expect. My charges are known to the customer up front. They are not the cheapest, but it has always seemed to yield a competitive advantage.Psychologically, this makes me want to go the extra mile in terms of "no charge" corrections and wanting to do my best for the customer. It seems watchmakers who charge by the hour tend to want to rush the current job to get to the next, which results in cut corners.However, in reality my fixed charges are calculated in the usual business manner: what I want for an hourly rate, materials (cleaning solutions, lubricants), amortized equipment, and other overhead. My hourly rate includes the value of my education and experience.My caveat on parts includes the possibility of corrections due to major vandalism. My end result is a timepiece that meets or exceeds its standards for precision when it was manufactured. (A 1910 railroad watch exceeded the factory tolerance for modern Rolex). I make minor corrections and aesthetic corrections (polishing steel work and reblueing screws) at no additional charge.In electronics troubleshooting is much more complicated. There are significant variations across everything from amplifies to oscilloscopes. But I suspect those in the business of electronic repair also create a niche where they restrict the universe of devices they service. But even so, given the many different ways a device can fail, I cannot see how fixed charges would be a sustainable practice.How would a fixed rate apply to a DOA that is a blown fuse vs blown regulator? I would think estimates are the best option with charging fairly if it turns out to be a blown fuse. Surprising how well honesty gets around.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 05:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 04:53:22 pmYeah, I could. Only the wildly varying stuff I get on my desk, usually without any schematic, makes that I won't. Sometimes a repair literally costs me two minutes and some solder but other times it costs me hours of tinkering and multiple orders at Farnell et al.It might be that a clock is a clock and repair often looks the same but this is not the case with the things I get my hands on. The farthest I will go is no cure no pay, where my experience (hopefully) tells me when to stop trying to breathe life into a device that has emitted its final magic smoke. And if I fix something hours are billed. If I get similar hardware with the same problem I set a fixed price. Which has not necessarily a relation to the number of hours I then spend on the thing.This means I never have to replace a blown diode in a dime a dozen wall wart for next to nothing but I do replace the same diode in a specialist joystick for the price of a decent smartphone. It works for me and it seems to work for my clients.

author: Sensorcat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 08:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on July 01, 2024, 11:00:52 amThat's true, but it implies that diagnosis is not a big issue. If it is, the usual procedure of all workshops, even the manufacturers', is to replace parts until the problem is fixed. The customer pays for all tries and all parts in this case.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 01, 2024, 05:20:38 pmFair comment, but I think you are choosing extreme examples to make your point. You definitely wouldn't (and I don't) quote a four-figure number for every job, just because it MIGHT take 20 hours. The reality is that 20-hour repairs are extremely rare. So are 2 minutes repairs. You work on averages, such that most weeks you make the right money, occasionally a bit more, occasionally a bit less.Quote from: janoc on July 01, 2024, 05:20:38 pmYes, I agree with that. Using myself as an example, clocks and watches have far fewer failure modes than electronics. My aim was to point to a different business model which (arguably) seems fairer to the customer.So far nobody has addressed the three fundamental problems with charging by the hour. 1/ It encourages you to work slowly in order to charge the customer more money.* 2/ The less competent the repairer the more money they charge per job because it takes them longer. This is the wrong way round. 3/ There's a mismatch between what the customer wants to buy (a repair) and what you are willing to sell (your time). And that's what leads to the most unfair practice of all: charging a customer a goodly sum and sending them home with an appliance that's still broken. There's an expression for that: a rip-off. Or maybe daylight robbery. You get the idea.(*) Let's be honest, we've all eked out a job, even if only semi-deliberately. It's 4.30pm, it's been a long day, and you don't want to start the next job so late in the day. So you fiddle about doing some gentle make-work - resoldering all the soldered joints, pushing a cloth behind all the buttons to clean the dust out, etc - anything nice and easy to take you up to 5pm. And of course you charge the customer to 5pm, even though they've bought half an hour of make-work.Personally I don't know the answer. In fact I don't believe there is a single answer to the fundamental conflict: the customer wants to buy a repair, you want to sell your time. There are only compromises.Whatever charging model you use, the one line in the sand I believe we should all observe is: no fix/no fee. It's just not right morally to charge the customer $200, thank you very much, and send them home with a still broken appliance. It's just so colossally unfair to them, and they have absolutely no redress. If you aren't competent enough to fix the appliance, you should not be rewarded for failing. What other business rewards incompetence and failure?

author: starphot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 09:01:28 pm
content: I'm a retired electronics repair tech. I've been out of the repair business for quite awhile. My shop was for a Fortune 500 electronics retailer and we had fixed repair rates depending on item with about a dozen brands under approved warranty service. I was on commission and I repaired over 32,000 analog cellphones and accessories plus other RF comm gear in my career. I made plenty as some units took only minutes until I was laid off in 2001. Depending on volume of repair unis doing the fixed rates vs hourly has its own advantages. Low volume repairs usually do the hourly in an independent shop, but don't abuse the hourly if you want referrals from your customers!

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 09:44:59 pm
content: If someone is getting $200 bills unexpectedly, then that's a contractual problem, or the product to be repaired was taken to an unreputable place, or, perhaps, the customer did not look at the contractual terms or chose to ignore them anyway (non-expert customers might misunderstand how difficult a diagnosis or repair task may be).It's not possible to force someone to find the root cause within a couple of hours, or to repair something within a certain timeframe, because, very practically, it might not be possible or economically viable for the engineer to achieve it.That's why the world works with contract terms. One gets to decide if they are willing to proceed based on the contract, and if either side feels they didn't get what was contracted for, then there are practical solutions for that (like courts).It's moral to charge a 'reasonable amount' for spending time diagnosing an issue, and it's very moral for engineers to let their customers know at some point if it's looking like it might not be possible to repair, so that the customer can make the decision if they wish to spend more money proceeding further, or not.Regarding deliberately working slower when you know you're getting paid by the hour, this is not normal, but I can imagine some firms might have the odd engineer like that, bad company culture, etc. Hopefully they don't last long due to word of mouth, trustpilot type sites, etc.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2024, 11:27:00 pm
content: So I get OP's point about hourly being unfair. Especially nowadays where with most PCBs (at least in my industry, biotech) there is no schematic available. So a lot of time is spent tracing out the circuit/understanding it.But what is the current industry standard? I am having a hard time finding concrete info on this. Do most charge hourly or a fixed rate? If so, what are those rates (on avg?)I am looking to take on some private/independent work and I want to make affordable services, but still get paid in a way that reflects the services provided. In this case, a very niche service where most just swap boards; boards that are very expensive brand new.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 12:55:15 am
content: Quote from: fmashockie on July 01, 2024, 11:27:00 pmseems like the standard is just to replace whole assemblies and not try to repair anything.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 01:09:08 am
content: Yes that seems to be the case! Very much so in my industry.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 01:49:55 am
content: Fair to who? To the paying party, one cent more is one cent more unfair. Each side has each cost concern.More productive than judging on other people costing is to find a way to lower the cost of the work like:1. Come back with much bigger volume, or some factors that can lower the cost of the repairer2. Find a shop that is specialising on your type of item, if there is any.Don't forget, the best value-add of a repair shop is to reduce downtime cost of operation. When things are gettng cheaper and cheaper, and man-hour getting more and more expensive, the main calculation is the man-hour saving.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 09:58:42 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 02, 2024, 12:55:15 amYep, totally. I used to work as an electronics technician repairing telecoms products. The products had several circuit boards and I would diagnose to component level and replace the faulty components. As time went by my employer decided it was cheaper just to replace the entire circuit board than pay for the component-level diagnosis.As the years went by the products became more and more integrated, less and less repairable, until nowadays it is often cheaper to replace the entire product than spend time opening it up, diagnosing, replacing, testing, closing.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 11:33:20 am
content: I charge an upfront fee for almost all items brought in for repair. Before booking it in and charging the fee however I'll advise the customer what the likely total could be as a range. The upfront fee is deducted from the total repair total.If I highly suspect that it's not going to be a viable repair I'll just tell them right then and there. People who rip customers off won't last in business.My customers know the minimum cost involved and are free not to proceed booking it in. We also discuss what limit I should keep in mind as I work on their item and contact them if things look like going off course. I do get the occasional customer take their item back without booking it in and I'm fine with that.Occasionally I'll spend hours and some parts on an attempted repair only to call it quits. I still get my minimum fee and 99% of customers are totally fine with this. I've actually had a few customers offer some extra money at that point as they appreciated the efforts I made even though I couldn't fix their item.Very occasionally I get someone ask for a free quote. I simply tell them that's not how I work and they go elsewhere. Well, I suspect they get the same answer everywhere else and end up complaining to their friends how unjust the world is.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 11:50:29 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 10:38:43 amJust out of interest, do you work from home or in a rented workshop? Also, what sort of money would you have invested in spare parts (on hand), tools, etc?

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 01:05:03 pm
content: Please remember some customers try to fix it themselves and cause the item to often become un-repairable!!! My father had a Radio / T.V. repair shop for over 30 years. for about the last decade of his business he charged $25.00 up front as an estimate fee. If you decided to repair the item after getting the estimate the $25.00 was credited to the repair charge. Often the customer said don't bother fixing it and the shop got a "parts buggy" to harvest a good used C.R.T. or expensive transformer and other parts from. Dad often told a customer "With new parts a C.R.T. replacement and convergence will run around $150.00 to $180.00 but we have a good used C.R.T. available with a 1 year warranty and could do the job for around $90.00 These 'hard parts' often came from T.V.'s that had suffered lightning damage. As for an estimate, it is often the case that the item must be fully repaired and burned in for a day to make sure nothing else is wrong. So you now have parts and labor tied up and may only see the estimate fee. If the customer decided the repair was too costly and said "just keep it, don't fix it", well, it was already fixed so he would put the item up for sale usually for what was owed on the repair bill. He harvested tons of repair parts from "just keep it" microwave ovens. Some of the parts harvested were obsolete by the O.E.M. and unavailable but Dad could still do the repair when no one else could!!

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 01:49:51 pm
content: I've also done stuff for company internals, there the main indicator was lead time.Around y2k computer things were pretty easy, but things became old pretty fast.After ATX mobos came the CPU box situation changed, and small companies were a bit lost with "constant" change.Here things were also more expensive back then.Industrial stuff is different.So it's much of what kind of a customer is paying.Individual or a company, and what kind of a company.Here cost estimation for individual customers is mandatory.Old saying is that the price is not the work but the know how.It kicks back if you don't know.Working slower has two sides, doing it too slow and not too fast.It's that you never have time to do it right, but you always have time to fix it.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 07:23:38 pm
content: For private electronics repairer, needed tools are not a major thing.Average salary x2 for semi pro, other x2 if it's for living.It's a bit high, "1/5 is yours" is one kind of a rule of thumb here.E,Last comma includes too much silent info.Private who is selling mainly work hours from good location can quite easily change that 1/5 to 4/5.But still, percentages wont pay bills.Bigger circles may have a situation of 6th, 1/6 of work force is mainly elsewhere.And overall 1/10 is not so business anymore.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 07:58:58 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 02, 2024, 11:50:29 amI work from home now, like so many horologists. The overhead of running a retail shop is just too high for the limited footfall, and an industrial unit is overkill. I have a top-floor room which I use for horology as well as electronics.I've been doing this for about 45 years so it's really difficult to know how much I've invested in tools, etc, but it will probably be several thousand UK pounds. As for my stock of spares and components, I've run that down a lot because it just wasn't worth keeping components that might sit for years or even decades before being needed. My new approach is to keep a much smaller stock and order my stuff as required from Cousins, here in the UK. Because they service vast numbers of customers they can afford to keep a large stock on hand.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 10:00:13 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pmOf course it is an extreme example - but you didn't say what is the thing we are repairing, did you? For a complex piece of electronics with a complicated fault and possibly some restoration to be done as well (or equipment that is not easy to test), 20 hours could well be on the short side still!Don't assume that everyone is swapping cracked displays in smartphones in a shopping mall where it is +/- the same job every time a customer turns up with a smashed screen. There you can use those averages.But if pretty much every job you get is different (different device, different fault, different manufacturer, maybe parts/documentation not available, etc.) then you would be out of business pretty fast with that approach. How do you calculate an average rate from a sample size of one? That fixing a device A from a vendor X last week took 2 hours has zero bearing on how long will it take to fix an outwardly similar fault in a device B from a manufacturer Y because the root cause could well be totally different.Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pmThat has been addressed - and it is a complete red herring. You are assuming the shop works in a vacuum and there are no other factors, such as competition, reputation, etc. You can rip a customer off with a slow, overpriced and incompetent repair exactly once. And if you do, you can be sure they aren't coming back with another job for you. Even better - they will for sure tell all their friends and post on all social media and wherever one posts reviews today what an incompetent crooked fool you are. Trust me, you are going to be out of business very fast. All it takes is a few poor reviews e.g. on Google Maps or Trustpilot (or whatever other such platform people use these days) and you suddenly have no work anymore.That's the same sort of fallacious argument like people who claim you have ripped them off because you have charged $100 to replace a part that they can get for $1 on Amazon. They also ignore that the costs are not only the costs of the parts - like you ignore that when you charge by hour you can't arbitrarily pad your billed hours because the customer isn't an idiot that would agree to a completely open-ended contract with no bounds on the billed time. Or that the customer has no notion of value for their money and can't decide when it makes no more sense for them pay for the repair.Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pmWhich has absolutely nothing to do with whether you charge by hour or a fixed sum. And if you do rip people off, you better have a good lawyer - you will need them pretty soon. Again, you are assuming that people are idiots and will put up with your shenanigans. If you want to rip people off like this with impunity, you need to be a banker or a stock broker, not a repairman where your entire livelihood hangs on your reputation.Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pmOf course there isn't a perfect answer to this - it depends on what kind of market you are in, what exactly you are doing, what are your customers willing to pay for the work, what your expenses are, etc. There is no one size fits all solution. Horses for courses and all that.It is a tricky problem to get right - if you charge too little, you are leaving money on the table. If you charge too much, you are losing business. If you set up the billing scheme wrong, you will lose money and go out of business. There are entire economic theories on how to set price and bill customers. PhDs were obtained on this topic.However, you do need to stop inventing non-existing problems and unrealistic scenarios that conveniently ignore inconvenient facts such as existence of reputation or competition in order to make your point. That's not a constructive debate. That's just trying to railroad the discussion in a direction that supports whatever arbitrary point you want to make. When dealing with livestock we could also assume spherical cows in a vacuum for convenience - but it won't help us any if one is trying to figure out how to milk them.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2024, 10:25:23 pm
content: Running a business from a retail / commercial premises costs a way more money than a lot of people realise. The rent in shopping centres can be astronomical and even smaller industrial spaces are expensive. I know, as I used to rent one after moving my business out of home (I bought a commercial space some time ago). A larger business with employees can be a better fit for commercial premises. Luckily these days the internet has made it a lot easier to find services that are not in those prime retail locations, although I do get a fair number of referrals from current customers and other related businesses.A good stock of spare parts for electronics can cost quite a bit, especially if you need to be able to turn repairs around promptly. I would estimate that to be in the AUD $10K - $50K range depending on the type of electronics you work on. You can absolutely start a new business with a lot less than that, but over time you'll end up with a lot more.I don't know that comparing the electronics and automotive repair industries is valid. Mechanics tend to see a lot more of the same vehicle models, where as a general electronics repairer I see a lot of quite different items each week. Service data can also be a big problem, whereas information on cars tend to be more readily available. Working without this information can certainly add time to a job.If I take my car in to have some issue looked at and I don't go ahead with the suggested repairs, I fully expect to pay for the diagnostic time. Why should anyone work for free? If a business wants to offer free quotes I'm not offended, but I don't feel the need to do the same. Of course some business types do need the free quote offer, but they are for purchases like carpets, patios and the like, not diagnostics.

author: Runco990
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 01:14:24 am
content: To the OP with love....Learn to fix your own stuff!Problem solved!Note: I AM a certified Master Electronics Technician, so take what I say as you wish.I repair test equipment and do tape decks as well. Mostly as a hobby now. I am really semi-retired and do this out of my paid off house.But I MUST charge a 1 hour diagnostic fee because I have to take apart a complex machine to try and figure out what's wrong with it, and what in most cases... someone else has DONE to it. This takes time and work. Frequently much more than one hour. I have been in decks a DAY before figuring out everything, as often it is more than one problem. USUALLY it is more than 2 or 3. That is the nature of old gear. Now on modern stuff.... you just swap a board. You don't really troubleshoot it, but at the same time it wasn't even meant to be repaired in the first place. Those are the "modern" shops, that still exist. This is not the type of work that I do. I do component level troubleshooting.I CANNOT give up front estimates because I usually get hammered, clapped out, already tinkered with gear that now requires a MIRACLE to get running again. I am often "The Tech of last resort". By then, the customer is looking for CHEAP, as some "shop" already charged them and didn't fix a thing. It's like this: "My car is making a knocking noise, how much to fix?" Well, without seeing it, how can I know over an email if something is loose or it's a rod knock and the engine is going out? But sure... let me quote you $250 to fix.There are times that when a job gets beyond reasonable expectation, I often just do a flat rate that works for me and the customer, as things are sometimes hidden and only come out later, but I am now much too deep into it and cannot just "UN-DO" my work and say sorry... I'm bailing on this one. I actually DO work with people. I do get it.In my world, there is no "No fix, No pay" YOU go do it! You'll be out of business in no time if you work on ancient crap like reel to reel decks. The effort needed to just diagnose, let alone properly align an electro-mechanical device this complex makes this impossible. If that is what you want from ME.... good luck getting your thing repaired. I work from home, so my rates are reasonable, but no.... I don't and CAN'T work for free. Also, I'm actually very good at what I do... so the NO FIX is pretty damn rare. I fix stuff others gave up on.Especially now, that many ebay flippers are just looking for a "cheap fix" so THEY can cash in big time. I have worked for a few.... "Can you fix this Studer A810 for $20?" NO... I cannot. It costs an hour to diagnose, then you get an estimate. And that is what it is... an ESTIMATE. Sometimes, things go south... it happens... and you have to make that unpleasant phone call.And if you think that a good tech pads out his hourly rates.... think again. We usually have more work than time and usually a weeks to MONTHS backlog. In fact, I only do specific jobs and interview potential customers ahead of time. Yes, some shops do this... I don't agree with it. I do this because I LIKE what I do, not screw people over, so I understand the concern. Find a better shop. I always advise to find a private tech instead of a shop, as usually you will have a much better experience. Most of us old fools do this because we WANT to, not because we HAVE to. But groceries ain't free....And then there are many jobs that are simply not worth taking, as parts and labor are constant, the value of the item IS NOT! It costs a minimum of $40 to replace a belt in a $20 DVD player..... just toss it and get another. OR... learn to fix it yourself. So I myself do not touch "cheap stuff".Yes, I was asked this on a coby dvd player.... the girl was SHOCKED that I couldn't do it for $5!Cheers!

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 02:52:10 am
content: I get a few calls a day from people asking if their item is worth bringing in for repair. I spend 2 mins to ask them a few questions about the item and the fault, then give them my best guess. I stress that I can't know for sure without investigating the fault properly and there is a risk of wasted money (for them) if I do end up finding that the repair is not viable. It's their call and I don't try and talk them into bringing the item in.Sometimes they will bring the item in and pay the upfront fee, only for me to find the actual issue is worse or not what I thought it may have been. Does that suck for them? I guess so, but I don't have a crystal ball so it's really not my problem. The key is not to sugar coat the initial guess. Just be honest. There's a reason I have a near perfect rating on Google and new customers often remark on it.Of course there's the people that want their $59 Bluetooth speaker repaired and think it will cost $20 because "It's just a simple fault. It won't turn on so must be the power switch." Sigh...I concur with the previous poster about stuff that's been "fiddled" with. Sometimes the customer will never even mention they've had a go. It can cause the job to take a lot more time as you've then got to check things that they may have damaged in the process.

author: ftg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 08:21:16 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 02, 2024, 12:55:15 amCan't really afford to.Back when I was working in a TV repair shop only known and documented component level fixes would be done.As you usually could not make a profit on the repair if you had to do any component level diagnosis.Even when you had the schematics from the manufacturer.When a new PSU is 15eur, you don't diagnose it.Unless it's some documented and known fault like blown diodes that don't take anything else with them.Then youmightfix it, if you have no spares on the shelf.But when you can bill 75eur + cost of spares, you don't get to trace out a fault.I think the cheapest assembly where component level repairs were done was swapping blown fuses and ferritebeads on TV backlight drivers in few models.Those were 8eur and 4.5eur assemblies, but we rarely had them in stock and they had longer lead times.So swapping the two 3A SMD fuses was quick and cheap, as you did not even have to remove the boards.But those were a rare special cases.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 10:57:34 am
content: Quote from: janoc on July 02, 2024, 10:00:13 pmAnd yet again you ignore the point. I'll have one more go. If you aren't competent enough to find and fix the fault, why should you still get your $200 per hour reward? Can't you see how wrong that is? What other business rewards incompetence and failure as generously as competence and success? That is why it is so wrong to send the customer home with a still-broken appliance and a few hundred bucks less in their wallet.A light-hearted analogy would be to walk into a shop and ask for a can of tomato soup. The proprietor says "I'm sorry, we're out of stock. That'll be $1.20 please."It seems like you cannot put yourself in the customer's shoes, even for a moment. But try, please.And one last time: if you aren't smart enough to fix my appliance, why the heck do you expect me to pay you? If you aren't smart enough, your time is worth nothing.No fix/no fee is a moral imperative.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 11:16:43 am
content: What's your point? You pay for goods received. You pay for services rendered. Services and goods have different legal status and with good reason. A service might not produce an intended outcome, but neither might it be guaranteed to. The service contract is whatever the service contract, either says it is, was verbally agreed, or otherwise implied to.You're apparently arguing that a service should always have the status of a good, but that's simply not how services work.Making a moral case for it, depends on the moral framework it is derived from. One could equally well argue that, hey I put in however many hours doing the thing, work is work, pay me. You've constructed no argument from moral principles (which framework, even!), you've just asserted that you think it is so.Tim

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 11:48:35 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 10:57:34 amYou seem fixated on one possible reason for the non repair. In my experience the most common reasons for an item not being repaired are that it won't be economically viable (too many hours and / or parts required), or that the part(s) required are simply no longer available. Both are very real problems that service technicians face all the time and often you can't possibly know this outcome until you've spent a fair chunk of time on that job.I'm sure that there are some repairers that take on work far beyond their abilities, but if they continue to do so word will get around very quickly and business will dry up for them. I've had a few instances in the last 30 odd years where I've accepted a repair only to realise that I either didn't know enough to do the job or I could foresee the train wreck it would become due to the combination of customer and item / fault. In those cases I did no work on the item and refunded the upfront fee. Some of them were referred to other repairers with more specialist knowledge in the item concerned.The "no fix = no fee" entitlement bullshit needs to die. If a business wants to offer it, good luck to them. I know a lot of electronics repairers and none of them operate this way. If you want me to use my skills and work on your equipment, you need to pay for it.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 01:37:16 pm
content: My timepiece business is/was entirely via mail/ups. Domestic and international. My niche cannot be sustained by local/regional work.My basic service charges are posted on my website. But I gave a complete quote (which included needed parts and significant corrections) after inspection. If the customer refused the service, all I charge is the cost of return shipping. I also pay return shipping when I determine a return is my fault and I provide a one year warranty on actual performance. Nothing worse than making a pilot/owner pull a clock from the instrument panel because I screwed up.The reason is my business model is mail order. I cannot see the piece with the customer at the front counter. I cannot remember a time when the customer declined. Of course, this means I likely am way underpriced. But my website is over 20 years old and created with Front Page and was last updated maybe 3 years ago. I hate working on it. Surprisingly, those who come to me actually like the home made feel of the site. Self selection I guess.Mary insists we work on it together before September.Just my advice to all those who offer repair service: do NOT compete on price. Compete on service. Let everyone else run in the race to the bottom. At least in timepieces, it seems the higher your charges, the better the work you get. For one thing, educated and successful people know what good work costs.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 01:58:09 pm
content: The thing is, whether you charge a set price per job, or charge by the hour, somebody will think you are "ripping them off".Back when I worked at the TV Studio, we had a programme which purported to investigate if customers were being ripped off by TV repairers.Instead of consulting the large numbers of experienced Techs & EEs in the Network, the Producers hired an outside engineer, with"a pretty high opinion of himself" to put a fault on a TV, & see how long the repairers took to fix it.He tweaked a trimpot, producing a reduction in picture height.The TV service companies all took some time to return the TV, with the problem fixed.The EE then trumpeted forth how it had "taken them so long to find a misadjusted pot".The general feeling amongst us Station Techs was that he was a Twat, as any Tech "worth their salt", would not consider "twiddling a pot" to be fixing something, & would look for a real intermittent fault, obviously incurring manhours.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 02:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 10:57:34 amIncompetent CEOs regularly leave their jobs with a "golden handshake", on top of the bonuses they have accrued over the years of destroying the businessQuoteIf the time spent trying to fix your appliance is time that could be spent fixing some other piece of equipment from a customer who accepts the conditions, your business is not worth having, so you can go elsewhere with no financial penalty to either party.The obvious point also arises, that sometimes, businesses have a fixed non-refundable charge. This may well exceed the cost of just paying for man-hours for an easy job.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 02:47:33 pm
content: I would suggest that watch repair is a bad comparison to electronics repair. It seems that parts for watches can either be purchased or fabricated relatively easily. For electronics many parts are literally impossible to replace. Vacuum tubes may or may not be available, and many custom ICs cannot be found. While an experienced tech recognize the likelihood of this problem in a particular device, is the labor to verify that no repairable fault exists to be free?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 03:13:09 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 03, 2024, 11:16:43 amI've already explained this: no customer wants to buy your time or your work, they want to buy a repair. The customer doesn't need to know or care how much time it took you - they go away with a repaired appliance or they don't.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 03:17:38 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 03, 2024, 11:16:43 amNo I'm not. I'm arguing that a customer never wants to buy your time, because it is intangible and useless to them. They want to buy a repair. That is a service, not a good.What they NEVER want to buy is a "nothing". $200 for a non-repair.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 03:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 03, 2024, 11:48:35 amAnd yet in the previous para you describe doing that very thing: no fix, no fee.No fix, no fee isn't bullshit, and it's not about "entitlement". You said: "If you want me to use my skills and work on your equipment, you need to pay for it."I simply cannot believe this! Here we go again. As a customer I want arepair. I don't care HOW you achieve that. I don't care whether you you use your skills or not. Feel free to "poke and hope" if that's all that's needed. I don't care whether you "work on my equipment" or your dog does it. If you can see the fix in five seconds flat, then good for you.Once again it seems you cannot see the difference between what you want to sell (your time, or your skills) and what the customer wants to buy. The customer doesn't want to buy your skills and work, they want to buy a repair. I find it quite extraordinary that I'm still having to explain this.I have already agreed that there are various legitimate businesses models for how to charge the customer. The only point I will not budge on is the practice of failing to give the customer what they want and still charging them for it. That simply IS a rip-off.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 03:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 03, 2024, 02:47:33 pmI said precisely this in my first post. However, the principles of small business apply. Find a niche, limit the universe of devices you repair (the days of Lloyd's Fix It shop are done) and compete on service.TV repair was probably the closest analog to timepeice repair. Just carry around a box of tubes.Overall, as I tell young watchmakers, charge to be fair to yourself. If a gas lawnmower or chainsaw repairman makes more than you, change businesses. Pulling parts off a shelf for an item of no historical importance, or draining oil is a lot different from knowing how to handle complicated (chronograph), expensive or uncommon timepieces. Plus the liability if things go south.So if a lawnmower is charged at $45 an hour, what should be the charge for servicing timepieces?The same with electronics service work. A lot of education, tooling up, experience and knowing where to get replacement parts.FWIW, my customers tend to be grateful, not feeling ripped off. Part of it is qualifying the customer ("I am sorry, but I cannot serve you") and part of it is competing on service and not price. In fact, they put up with me not working during the summer, waiting several months to send it in and then waiting a couple of months until it comes up, the service is performed and then 1 to 2 weeks to verify performance.I did have several customers try to renege on their payment. Small claims court took care of all but one. The last was a restoration hangar. I simply noted his business in Quickbooks and sure enough, three years later he sent another clock. I billed him for the accrued interest on the first clock. He told me to keep the clock he sent. Tasty. That was the only time I broke my policy of payment before shipment. No invoices since.At some point in every business transaction, one person holds both the money and the goods. Business does not work without trust. I just trust my character above others.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 03:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 03, 2024, 11:48:35 amSo far this is the best argument put forward in this debate. In some fields this is a completely real issue: parts not available, or so many needed it would cost too much.I think there are two obvious approaches here. Firstly, you could explain the situation to the customer, return the item and eat the cost. More realistically, you could have a policy of evaluating each job when it comes in for viability, and explain to the customer that this initial evaluation will cost $50 (say) regardless of the outcome. That is fine because you and the customer have AGREED UP FRONT that they will have to pay $50 and there is a risk attached to it. The customer is fully informed. They can go ahead, knowing they might spend $50 and have nothing to show, or they can decide it's not worth the risk. There is nothing morally wrong about that.A nice little variant on that system is to say to the customer, "If you decide to go ahead I will knock the $50 off your final bill". I've seen that a lot and it certainly buys a lot of goodwill. How you actually arrange that is a matter for your discretion.This is fundamentally different morally from taking on the job, failing at it, and still charging them. That is what cannot be justified morally.Quote from: David_AVD on July 03, 2024, 11:48:35 amExcellent! Good for you - you did exactly what I'm arguing for: no fix, no fee.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 04:03:38 pm
content: ask any lawyer how he charges....

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 04:11:31 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 03:17:38 pmYou are mistaken -- I've seen plenty of people pay money for intangible and useless services! Repeatedly and voluntarily!Maybe your perspective is biased by your experience in a niche market. I would perhaps be surprised -- but also would not rule it out -- that your clientele have, by and large, been intelligent, rational, economically minded people.Or perhaps your mix is in fact more ordinary but you've internally excused the outliers -- perhaps they're just having a bad day; perhaps you've defensively taught yourself to forget such experiences. But there is obviously some sort of bias at work here, that you would say such a thing, that you wouldn't be cognizant that "intangible and useless services" constitute billions (trillions?) of dollars of market share each year.You also don't seem to appreciate that there are two sides to every deal. I phrased my previous reply in such a framework, and it has fallen on deaf ears -- or been willfully ignored (e.g. because you consider it irrelevant, because you've long since evaluated and discarded that point and have forgotten that it would be important/germane to reply with what your reasoning for that conclusion was, etc.). A contract is between two people. There are buyers and there are sellers. A deal is an agreement to exchange money. If parties agree to exchange money for tenuous material reasons, who are you to tell them they are in the wrong? That's quite rude of you!But most of all, you claim your point as god-given truth, and refuse to hear any disagreement -- a point easily disputed, fragile as glass. You've framed this as a question, a debate; but in fact, you only came here to pontificate. You've abused our openness, our desire to exchange ideas; you are nothing but a troll.You're welcome to change my mind on the above statements, but it is clear that the points you came here with, are not in dispute; these latter points are, it seems, the only truly meaningful matters to dispute here.Tim

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 04:29:27 pm
content: In summary, I think there is one principle that we should all stick to: never surprise a customer with a bill, and never send them away feeling they've been ripped off. (Hmmm... maybe that's two principles...)Firstly, and most importantly, I think this means never taking on a job, failing at it, and then charging them for your time regardless. This is utterly unacceptable and should never happen. It is unfair to the customer becauseit loads all the business risk onto the customer, while you take on no risk at all- fail or not, that'll be five hundred bucks, thank you kindly. Dumping all the risk on the customer is morally indefensible.Equally, taking on a job, failing at it and being unable to charge the customer (for good moral reasons) is equally unfair, but this time it is unfair on you. In that model,you take on all the risk, and the customer takes on none. They might like that idea, but it is unfair on yourself, as many of you have pointed out.So what is left?You and the customer share the risk.And make it clear that either party can avoid any risk just by walking away.Sharing the risk implies the following..... You tell the customer up-front that you need to evaluate the job, and that will cost $50 (say), regardless of the outcome (ie whether you can repair it or you can't). At that point the customer can take that risk, or walk away with their money. If they agree to go ahead, you get the money up front. Once evaluated, you say to the customer "I can do it and it'll cost $200" (say), or "I can't repair it because the parts are obsolete" (for example).If the customer decides to proceed, stick to your estimate (that's your side of the risk equation). Maybe you could agree to seek their approval if the bill is going to be more, but that does risk the customer feeling suspicious about being "gouged".So, TL:DR:1/ Tell the customer there'll be an up-front evaluation charge. They can either accept it or walk away.After the evaluation:EITHER2a/ Tell the customer you can fix it for $n(and stick to that quote).OR2b/ Tell the customer the item is beyond economic repair.That seems to be the only way that the risk is shared - it's as fair as possible to you and as fair as possible to the customer. Nobody feels ripped off becauseboth parties knew what risks and costs were involved up front.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 04:43:04 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 03, 2024, 04:11:31 pmThe opposite is true. See my post just above this one. I've been arguing that charging for your time even if you fail is one-sided. The rest of that post describes how to make the risk properly two-sided.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 03, 2024, 04:11:31 pmThere is only one small point in my original, wider-ranging argument, that I refuse to move on, and that is presenting the customer with a significant bill AND their unrepaired appliance. You are right, I won't move on that one. But I have conceded all the other points!Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 03, 2024, 04:11:31 pmHey, come on now - just because I find an argument entirely unconvincing and illogical does NOT make me a troll. How about me calling you a troll for continuing to insist it's OK to charge a customer even when you aren't up to the job of fixing their widget? Defending that position looks awfully troll-like to me!Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 03, 2024, 04:11:31 pmI refer you to my previous post, which I believe addresses the entire discussion, whilst defending my one and only non-negotiable.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 06:35:34 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on June 30, 2024, 10:35:07 pmI would say you're delusional.I get it, that from a customer POV, you want a quick, fixed-price transaction.But the fact is, everything you pay for (including goods you buy) are ultimately paying for someone's time. (OK, with the big exception of corporate profit and other forms of rent-seeking.) That's all labor is -- someone's time. And even raw materials are just the cost of people's time to collect the material, or to manufacture the tools needed to collect the material.Having worked as a computer technician, think of it from the technician's point of view: you don't know what's wrong with the thing. It might be simple, or it might be something completely unexpected that takes hours just to diagnose. If you don't charge for diagnostics, then with every repair, you're gambling. You have no idea what the issue is and whether you'll be able to fix it. And the nature of the fault is something you have zero control over!Would you gamble with YOUR income, based on a factor that's outside of your control? How is that fair to the technician?Sometimes repairs are complex, and success can only be determined after doing a lot of work. Is it fair for the technician to invest lots of time and parts (which could be expensive) only to discover that it cannot be repaired, meaning that all the parts and labor are donated for free?Some technicians/companies choose to offer free estimates/diagnostics and/or "no fix, no fee". But what that means is that the cost of those services is baked into a higher price for all the services that do get performed: paying customers are then subsidizing those free services. Is that fair to them?I work as an in-house electronics technician at a university, and one of my duties is repairing lab equipment. We have literally hundreds of magnetic stirrers, including probably hundreds of just one model. Because of that fact, it made sense for me to invest hours into reverse-engineering the control circuit and figuring out the various failure modes, because a fault I encounter once, I am likely to encounter again and again. I have had multiple units where the failed component is a resistor. Literally a 1 cent part. But given the hours it took to figure out how the circuit works, just to make it possible to diagnose a bad component, is only worthwhile because the labor cost is spread across many units. If it were a device that we only had one of, my boss would have told me to spend an hour on it at most, and then declare it BER (beyond economical repair). Only because we have literally hundreds was it worth investing more time.Imagine if a customer came into a repair shop with one of those things, which they'd never seen before, with the same broken resistor. Is it fair to the technician to spend 6 hours on diagnostics, and then only be able to bill the customer the 10 minutes it takes to open the housing, replace the resistor, clean the board, and close it back up? Plus the one cent for parts? Certainly not. Would a typical customer be willing to pay you to spend 6h to fix it, when that is more than the unit cost new? Likely not. So in practice, you'd take only a quick look at it and declare it unrepairable.Fixed-price repairs are sometimes offered. But because of the unpredictability, they tend to cost more than the average for that type of repair might cost on a per-hour basis. Or they are moderately priced but come with VERY strict prerequisites. (Ever wonder why Apple won't perform a battery replacement, which they offer as a fixed-price repair, on a phone that has any visible damage whatsoever? It's because you don't know what unexpected problems that damage might cause. For example, and I have had this happen when attempting to do a repair on a device, if the screen bezel is deformed even a tiny bit, then once you get the screen out, you won't be able to get it back in, at the risk of causing the screen to shatter.)Anyhow, this is just scratching the surface of the topic. There are many ways to price technical services. But one thing I can tell you: consumer tech support and repairs are the worst business. Consumers need support that is ultimately often just as difficult and time-consuming as business stuff, but they aren't willing and/or able to pay for it. This is why e.g. computer tech support services come in exactly two price categories: high-schoolers charging $15-40/h doing it as a hobby, and professionals charging $100-500/h. What doesn't exist is a middle ground. I tried it. What happens is that consumers penny-pinch every minute. Business customers are happy to pay your $200/h.When I went back to school in 2003 after already being an established computer consultant, and did some support on the side, for business clients I used this billing model : $75/h (with one hour minimum) plus a $75 flat charge to cover travel (within a reasonable distance). In other words, you had to pay $150 for me to show up, up to an hour. Then beyond that billed in 15 minute increments. The business clients didn't bat an eye at this (even if the outcome after 30 minutes is "it's broke, you need to buy a new one"). (My former employer used a different model: no base charge, but $90/h. Cheaper for short visits, but more expensive for long ones.)At the same time, I tried (and quickly abandoned) doing a lower rate for consumers, $35/h + $35 base charge w/1h minimum. But it just wasn't worth it. Taking a half hour to drive over, another half hour back, and then even two hours there, for $105 just ain't worth the time, mileage, and tools you need to have. But moreover, consumers would try and haggle you down, trying to get you to round down 90 minutes to an hour, or to only charge 30 minutes for a 30 minute visit (even though it was still an hour travel in total). And they'd always come up with another "quick question"afterwriting you the check...I felt somewhat bad at having to leave those people without support, but it simply wasn't worthwhile, and dealing with the penny-pinching is just plain unpleasant. It makes you feel like they don't value your time and expertise.I kept the business customers only.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 06:41:03 pm
content: Quote from: Geoff-AU on July 01, 2024, 06:40:35 amYep.When my sister (who is a singing teacher) went into business for herself, I gave her exactly that advice: price filters out the clients you don't want. The ones who recognize your value as a professional-tier teacher (as in, she teaches professional singers how to improve) will be happy to pay a high rate and won't complain.High rates also send a really strong messageoutwardsabout how good you are claiming to be. Or more importantly: if you charge too little, many clients won't take you seriously. So paradoxically, you often get more business by charging more!

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 06:56:51 pm
content: I agree; I sell my time. And it is a non renewable resource. Once used it is gone forever. Regardless of what physics sez.Discount parts; never your time.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 07:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 10:57:34 amThe ability to fix the device is not predicated solely on the technician's competence! Even a highly skilled technician can run into things thatcannotbe repaired at all, or that cannot be repaired at a cost that makes any sense to do.And with most electronics these days having no schematics or service manuals, and with more and more of the "secret sauce" tied up in the code of a microcontroller, even the most skilled of technicians will encounter faults they categorically cannot repair. MCUs are a great example: if one of them dies, that's it, the device is toast. Even if you can identify and replace the MCU, the device won't work because your replacement MCU is blank. Without the code, which you don't have, you cannot restore functionality.What a more experienced (not just skilled) technician will have is a larger bank of experience to identify faults they've seen before, such that they can say "I know this problem, and it can't be fixed for less than the cost of a new device". The experienced people also know where to source obscure parts, and where to look for information resources. All this is why more experienced technicians can command higher rates than novices, even with the same level of training and inherent skill.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 07:05:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 03, 2024, 06:35:34 pmOK, well that is basically a comprehensive review of all the arguments against my position in this thread. I don't think I need to reiterate any part of my argument - I've done it to death by now. Nobody has convinced me to drop my "no fix/no fee" position, but the other arguments, about different charging models, are interesting and instructive, and I appreciate the time taken by all the contributors to this thread.In parting, there is one thing I would respectfully but vigorously beg of you:If there isanychance that the customer might have to pay for a non-repair (regardless of the reason),please warn them in advance!That way they can choose whether to take the risk or not. Surely that is entirely reasonable.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 07:14:44 pm
content: By the way, and not really a continuation of the argument... In the world of horology (clock and watch repairs), practitioners are so scarce that anyone, with the most limited skills and knowledge, can set themselves up in the trade. Their crap work means they rarely get repeat business, but they don't need it. Even if nobody ever comes back, there is enough latent demand out there to keep them in food and beer for years.Unlike electronics, in horology it is easy to get away with rubbish workmanship. So long as the damn thing ticks, it goes out the door. The customer can't tell if it's a fine job or a bodge.Thank goodness being an electronics technician is so much more demanding! The standard of practitioners is vastly higher.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 09:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 03:52:49 pmNo, this was not the "no fix, no fee" you keep talking about. It was a "declined to work on it, refunded fee" situation and a very rare one.You are also seem convinced that every customer is only interested in the fixed result with no regard for the diagnosis. I have plenty of customers who will ask for me to assess the issues and let them know what I find. They know that diagnosing things costs money. Sometimes that's accompanied by a agreement that if the total repair price is in a certain range then I am ok to proceed without consulting them.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 09:32:45 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 10:57:34 amAnd who are you to judge my competence? You have agreed to my contractual conditions beforehand, when I took your device for repair. If you don't like the conditions of my contract you are free to go elsewhere with your gadget. Or to repair it yourself. You are obviously sufficiently competent yourself since you are able to judge the competence of the repair shop merely based on that they are being honest with you.That I can't fix something in the first 2 hours and tell you that no, this can't be fixed in two hours because I have discovered the problem is more serious, how is that incompetence?If there is such contract, that means that it is either very likely it will be not worth fixing the device -and in that case I am actually saving you money.Or that the problem could be much more expensive to fix than originally estimated because of problems that couldn't be seen before actually opening it and spending time diagnosing it. Then I call you and it is your choice to either say OK, continue - or you pay me only for the spent time and get your gizmo back.Some people have no fix no fee policy, some don't - go to any car mechanic and see whether they will spend 2-3 hours working on your car for free if the problem can't be fixed in two hours because e.g. it turns out the engine is shot after they took it apart. Good luck!Or do you think you could determine what needs to be fixed by looking at the box of the broken device your client brings you?Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 10:57:34 amSorry mate, but this argument is complete bollocks. Unlike that proprietor that can see whether the soup is on the shelf outright, I don't have Superman's x-ray vision to determine what's the fault is by merely looking at the unopened case and without doing any diagnostics. Which takes time, effort and in some cases also consumables (and also the overheads for the shop). That you don't understand that the time isn't free and I am not able to work on another job while I am busy with your gadget doesn't change anything on that.Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 10:57:34 amIf you are so smart as to determine that the repairman is incompetent because they can't fix your device by merely looking at it then you will save a lot of money - and me trouble because I would never accept your business. Simply not worth the trouble. You can preach about moral imperatives only once you are paying my bills. Not before.And with that I am done here because it is obviously a complete waste of time trying to explain you something this elementary.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 09:51:18 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 03, 2024, 09:11:30 pmOK, understood.Quote from: David_AVD on July 03, 2024, 09:11:30 pmYou make a good point, and you have highlighted that I am oversimplifying things by concentrating only on repairs. Your point isn't really in disagreement with me, though. In those instances the customer is specifically asking for, and paying for, adiagnosis(rather than a repair), so of course they are willing to pay for it.Quote from: David_AVD on July 03, 2024, 09:11:30 pmLikewise, if you tell them in advance the price range for the repair, and they are happy with it, then once again they will be willing to pay. This is becauseyou have guaranteed that they will not be stung with a bill AND a non-repair, which is what I've been banging on about for the past two pages.That must surely be clear to everyone: you've done an assessment (paid for separately as a service in its own right), and you have guaranteed that if the repair goes ahead the cost will be within a range agreed with the customer. Therefore you haveguaranteedthey will not be stung with a bill for a non-repair.Here is what I wrote earlier:Quote(*) The only difference between us is you quote a price range rather than a single price, but the principle is identical.So, you see, we agree! You have described exactly what I was advocating.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 09:59:56 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 03, 2024, 09:32:45 pmI'm not smart, I'm dumb in comparison with you.Even so, you seem not to have read what I wrote:QuoteYou see? I'm advocating a paid-for evaluation (this is in response to the arguments made in this thread). No X-ray vision required. @David_AVD advocates a price range rather than a single price, and I think that sounds like a great idea. In any case, by evaluating first and then quoting for the repair, you have guaranteed not to charge for a non-repair.That is what I've been advocating.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 10:04:14 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 03, 2024, 09:32:45 pmDon't you dare put words in my mouth - I said no such thing!Misrepresenting your opponent is despicable. You owe me an apology.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 10:42:12 pm
content: Even with an estimated price range, there will be times when the true nature of the fault reveals itself and the item becomes uneconomical / impossible to repair. In those cases the upfront fee covers me for at least some of my time. In those cases the customer is out of pocket with no result. Occasionally I'm effectively out of pocket too if I've spent more time and parts on it than I can recover.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 11:14:42 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on June 30, 2024, 10:35:07 pmIts not true for a lot of cell phone repairs. Most of the rates are fixed, eg. battery replacement iphone xyz $60, screen replacement iphone xyz $100, etc.But that is because: the fault is known, the repair time is known, and the parts cost is known.If you know all of these and provide them to the person performing your repair, I'm sure many would be happy to take a fixed rate.The up-front diagnostic fee and then a quote will work for most situations, probably most things like appliances, but not all. If the device is incredibly complex, or a part is needed to be ordered to test further, they might find more problems as they go on (as mentioned above a few times).

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2024, 11:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 03, 2024, 10:42:12 pmYes, I agree that sometimes, even after the evaluation and agreeing the price range, it can happen that it is beyond economic repair after all. This is an example where you both lose out a little. The customer has spent the evaluation fee without getting a repair; you have spent whatever time was required to reach that conclusion, so you have lost out, too. That is fair and equitable - you've both lost out a bit. The customer willingly paid the evaluation fee - in effect they were willing to take that risk - so they aren't getting stung.Compare that with the approach advocated by so many in this thread, whereby in that circumstance the customer always loses and you never do; you get your $200 and the customer eats shit.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 12:18:30 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on July 03, 2024, 11:14:42 pmThanks for correcting me, @thm_w. Earlier in the thread we discussed a similar circumstance, whereby the time to fix the most common faults in most cars is determined (or even dictated) up front. This is because car makers and mobile phones repair companies know what I've been saying all along: the customer just wants a price for the repair, so they can make a go/no go decision.Further debate established that that approach is tilted too far in the customer's favour, and against the repairer, when the repairer has no way of knowing how long the repair might take. The solution advocated for by others in this thread - where the customer gets stuck with the full labour cost incurred AND gets a broken appliance back is, in my opinion, too far in favour of the repairer. The customer takes all the risk and has no control over the final bill. The repairer takes none of the risk and gets the full fee every time, successful or not.That's why I think the middle ground is the only fair way. The customer pays you to do an initial evaluation, knowing that whatever happens next, that money is gone. They know they are buying an evaluation, and they know how much it will cost. They have the choice to take it or leave it. If they decide to proceed with the evaluation, they are knowingly taking a risk, because they might be told it's irreparable, or it might be a higher repair cost than they are willing to pay. In that case they take their appliance and walk away, and you keep your evaluation fee.In the spirit of sharing the risk, you agree to do the repair for a particular price (or price range). If the customer accepts it, and it turns out to be irreparable after all, then you give the appliance back to the customer for no extra charge. That is your share of the risk - you've done some work you can't charge for. But this risk-sharing is fair and equitable, unlike a system which dumps all of the risk on one party.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 12:27:22 am
content: Coincidentally I just dropped my work van into the dealer to have the gear shifter looked at. They charge AUD $165 for the diagnostic and if the fault is solvable within that time (1 hour I think) that's all I'll pay. I do expect however that it will need parts, but they will call before doing more. If I decline I still have to pay the minimum $165 which if fine by me.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 12:34:21 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 03, 2024, 03:13:09 pmIf someone quotes an extortionate price, but is sure to repair the device, then you would be happy?The ultimate result of such a policy is that the price of your, or anybody else's repair is inflated to compensate for those repairs which would otherwise incur a loss to the repairer.Such a policy would work well if the repairer was in the business of selling new devices, and/or modules which make up a large part of the device, as they have a good bargaining point towards using either of the latter options.On top of that, not all devices are created equal------- some manufacturers go out of their way to make things difficult, others don't!Those who do often also "charge like wounded buffaloes" for parts.When I worked at the hearing aid place, we were also the accredited calibration & repair site for audiometers & other hearing test instruments.One such device displayed its results on a 9 inch black & white CRT display, which was really a small picture monitor, which could be unplugged from the instrument.We received one with collapsed vertical scan.As we were not set up to fix monitors, normal practice was to remove the display & send it to the USA, where the manufacturer would send us back a refurbished display, charging $A1200.On contacting them, we were informed that they no longer refurbished the displays, so we would have to buy a new one at a very much higher price.Our customer said "EEEK!" when we approached them, & had to check with higher management.About this time, I had a few free moments to look at the PCB of the display, which looked vaguely familiar, but of course, we had no schematics, & the IC part numbers had been sanded off.On a hunch, I contacted a former workmate, who arranged the loan of a workshop manual for an Electrohome 9 inch BW picture monitor.With the aid of the EH schematic, I was able to confirm that our display was virtually identical.With the EH monitor, there was a standard fault which caused loss of vertical scans, failure of an underrated diode.Upon replacement, the display was normal---all for the cost of a $1.00 diode!The customer was happy as they paid less & got their revenue earning device back faster, we were happy, but that was just the blind luck that I recognised the architecture of the display.If I hadn't, as there was no fixed price for the repair, unlike for the calibration, at least we didn't have the invidious choice of "eating" the extra cost of a new display, or charging nothing & handing the customer back a useless piece of equipment.The customer wouldn't have been happy with either of those choices!Needless to say, a photocopy of the "Electrohome" monitor schematic found its way into the equipment file!!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 01:08:36 am
content: The discussion of who is taking the most risk requires further discussion. The two parties are not equally invested in this process.The customer has a broken device that is worthless to him. His options are all costly, and some involve risk. If it is still under warranty he can send it back to the manufacturer either for replacement or repair. If the device is still in production he can buy a new device. He can buy a different device that performs a similar function. He can try to fix it himself. He can do without the device. Or he can try to get someone to service it for him. But every option except doing without means he really wants the device and wants some combination of rapid restoration of function and low price. All of the options listed will not exist for every device, but by the time the customer walks into the repair shop door he has made a significant decision and commitment to expenditure of time and money. This model even applies to the eBay reseller with a subset of the options.The repair shop owner has a very different perspective. All that is in play for him is an increment of business. In many cases there is far more work than he needs or can handle (for example sewing machine repairmen in my area have literally months of work backlog. I have been forced to learn sewing machine repair to keep my wife's machines in operation). Taking on a lengthy repair will negatively impact his performance for other customers. He is aware that bad service can result in reducing or eliminating that backlog, but there is no emotional, operational or significant financial investment in any one repair. His issues are paying the bills.The very different customer/repairer investments result in completely different risk analyses.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 04:50:27 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on June 30, 2024, 10:35:07 pmThis is one of the most clueless posts I've seen in a while, I'm assuming this is a full Karen meltdown over something trivial that happened to you but I can't be bothered going through the whole thread looking for the story. Responding in order of insane statements:- This is just flat out not how business works. I (like most repairers, I'd imagine) have a queue. Customers hate that, everyone wants their thing fixed immediately. Dragging out jobs for more hours would mean less jobs done per day, which means a longer queue for customers, which means lost business. Whether I spend 3 hours on one job or 1 hour each on 3 jobs I make the same, but if I only get one job done in 3 hours then I'm going to run out of shelf space and get lots of "IS IT READY YET" phone calls real quick. Also, you assume two things- first, that repairers are inherently dishonest, and second, that customers will pay whatever they're told without question. Neither is true.- Again, not how it works. Peoples hourly rate generally reflects experience and reputation. Cheaper labour generally means it's going to take them a lot longer, and it tends to all balance out pretty evenly. I charge many times what I did when I was starting out, but my experience/speed has multiplied similarly. The final bills are basically the same from the customer point of view (adjusting for inflation etc obviously), regardless of what the printed hourly rate is.- Maybe sometimes, but usually not. You're assuming that the repairer isn't smart enough to find the fault, but this is not usually the case. More often the reason for a no fix is going to be catastrophic damage, parts availability problems, low item value making repair costs impractical, intermittent faults, etc. We don't know this before an item walks in the door. Very simple example from last week- customer brought in a device they blew up with the wrong power supply. I dig through the power section and find the damaged components, clean up the PCB damage and so on. I rig up some bench supplies for testing as this thing has a tonne of supply rails, and it turns out the main processor is dead too. Not something that's available as a spare part (it's an old device that hasn't been made for a good decade or so). Some of the damaged power supply components are also out of production and unavailable. Obviously the unit is a write off at this point given used working units are only worth a few hundred bucks. By what logic do you think I should be out of pocket for my time on this? Yeah it's a no fix, but not through any lack of effort on my part.- What the customer wants something to cost has no bearing on the actual cost of the repair process. The customer does not get to invent what they think a fair price is, it costs what it costs in terms of parts and labour. A significant number of my customer interactions go like this "Hey, I need my thing fixed. It's just a loose wire, should be an easy one" "Oh, OK, which wire is loose?" "What?" "You said it just needs a loose wire reattached?" "Well, I mean, I assume that's what it is because it doesn't work, should only take you 5 minutes with your tools". Meanwhile in reality the thing doesn't work because it copped a lightning surge and the entire power supply has been blown to smithereens.- Absolutely not, for the reasons outlined above. Again- in most cases WE DO NOT KNOW what the cost will be in advance. Electronics repair is not as simple as say a tyre shop going "You got a shredded tyre? What size? OK, it's ___ bucks for one of those and ___ to fit it". God, even that simple example often has its own complications (e.g. rim is damaged, one wheel nut is seized, etc). On any given day the phone calls I get will say anything from "I just want it checked over as routine maintenance" to "It literally caught on fire" to "It shuts down intermittently" to "It fell off the truck and is in 8 pieces". Also, I easily get a couple jobs a week that are no fix situations because the "problem" was user error. For example, a common one is a customer saying their amp is cutting out. I test it, it's fine. I pull it apart and inspect it, nothing found. I wiggle connections, test it under different thermal conditions and loads etc, nada. After an hour or so of testing, cleaning, note taking and communicating with them about it they finally tell me their dog chewed one of their cables and ask if that might be the problem. Should I wear that cost given I didn't actually fix anything in the end?- What say I? I say you live in an alternate reality and have probably never done a real day's work in your life.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 06:53:14 am
content: There are different types of repair. For OEM, it is easier, as there are little unknown. For all 3rd party, they have to deal with unknown. How to price this unknown? Or more correctly, who is taking this risk for this unknown? If it is all known, there is no risk, then thing can be "fair". Pricing unknown, how to be fair? To be fair is about rewarding the party taking the risk. The party taking the risk, has to be the party to be rewarded The way the pricng goes is the Repair shop should charge as high a price for "no fix no fee" work that he thinks is worthy for them to absorb the cost of no-fix. It has to be definitely much higher than the hourly rate. Not charging so is short-changing themselves. If they think the risk is too high risk, they can just offer to charge hourly rate repair, or reject the work.As for people cheating on hour-counting that is about trust and business ethnics, and can happen in any trade and deal. Those who did no value-add, would not be around long, and you can bet their names would pop out easily on the internet. What is the first thing cheated customers do? = try to give bad review online on every platform they can find.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 08:58:00 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on July 04, 2024, 04:50:27 amThere is no background story. Actually, I did give an example about my car being diagnosed, but that must have been 25 years ago and it certainly isn't what this thread is about. It was actually kicked off by a discussion in another thread, and is something I've been thinking about for a while.The points you make have been made several times already, although I do think your point about most people having a queue of work is spot on and undermines what I said about stretching out jobs. Once you've got a queue, you've got a guaranteed daily income and no incentive to stretch out your work.Quote from: David Aurora on July 04, 2024, 04:50:27 amHey, come on - let's stay away from the ad hominems, shall we? I'm not going to respond by saying what I think about you, because it has no place in this forum or this topic.FYI: I had a long and successful career in the telecommunications industry, which included a period early on setting up and operating an electronics repair lab. I loved doing electronic repairs. After finishing my career in telecommunications I worked as a technical author for four years. Then I spent the next ten years in academia, getting a BEng (Hons) and an MSc in Audio Engineering. After finishing the Master's I was awarded the Pro Vice Chancellor's Award in Science and Technology. I then worked as a lecturer at the University of Derby here in the UK, retiring four years ago.As a background activity I've worked continuously as a clock and watch repairer for the past 45 years.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 10:56:58 am
content: For cars, passenger or cargo.Semi service comes to the road side of a broken truck, passenger car is simply towed away.Both are timed.MOT test here.Electrical vehicle's road capability is revoked if bottom has a dent under a battery.Back in the day when computer had separate add-on cards as a norm and customer had only foggy understanding what is the problem the time went mainly for figuring out what is happening.It was a bit problematic since the situation was new and different from what people were used to.One case I visited a customer with initial info of button 'E' is not working.Last vacuuming had disconnected the wall plug.Setup battery was out and startup needed Y/N, here K/E.Other case a monitor picture was jittering, it was fine last day, maybe Friday.A cleaning patrol had lifted the wall wart from the floor and left it on top of the horizontal computer case.Both of those were companies, accounting and transportation.(5.25" floppy drive x2 and Mac something)Both were also paying heavily, sort of, but no arguments.Here selling work is not VAT deductible.So 100/h work and 100 or 1000 of materials.First long day and cheap materials, 100 * 10h work + 25% VAT + 100 material, so 1250 + 80.Then simple swap, 100 * 1h work + 25% VAT + 1000 material, so 125 + 800.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 11:23:48 am
content: Your 50$ assesment fee idea is flawed and I'll tell you why. If someone charges you 500$ for a non-fix then thatisthe assesment fee. He made an honnest attempt to repair, at some point figured out it wouldn't work, stopped the clock and made the bill.If you want to avoid charging for a non-fix, the only economical option is to amortize the "non-fixed" time over the "fixed" time. Which means that instead of having the guy that brought in a non-fixable device pay, everybody pays for the non-fixable device. The optics of that may look better but that's really all.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 12:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 04, 2024, 08:58:00 amAnd there we have it just like I had guessed- you've spent your life in salary jobs. You're accustomed to being paid a flat rate whether you're working, drinking coffee or taking a piss. Repair work for you is simply a hobby, not a profession.THIS IS NOT HOW IT IS FOR REPAIRERS.When we're taking bookings, returning emails, sending invoices, spending hours on the phone with couriers chasing missing parts, doing banking, cleaning up the workshop and about a million other things we are not getting paid.I had one recent customer who took up something like 4 entire hours of my time on the phone (between initial enquiry, constant calls mid job and 2 or 3 follow up calls). I think the total labour on his bill for the job itself was one hour. That's 10% of a standard workweek gone, completely unpaid just dealing with ONE customer. This is the reality of running a repair business and the kind of constant losses we need to eat up constantly.We only get paid for the actual billable hours per job, so that time isextremelyvaluable. The idea that we should absorb even more costs because a customer simply wishes the repair was cheaper is preposterous. It reeks of both entitlement and an absolute detachment from the reality the rest of the world lives in.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 12:25:28 pm
content: OK, I just went back through the thread and yeah, wow. Pretty cooked.You cannot tell me this isn't a new Faringdon type troll. It's too batshit crazy to be real.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 12:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on July 04, 2024, 06:53:14 amExcellent point. And these days why are people taking their devices to third party? Because a) manufacturer won't fix or will for absurd money b) the manfacturer has made it extremely difficult for customer to repair it themselvesThere's a lot of risk to people like myself who are in that third party position trying to fix electronics.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 01:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: David Aurora on July 04, 2024, 12:25:28 pmYou're doing it again - leave off the ad hominems, will you?What does "cooked" mean?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 01:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: David Aurora on July 04, 2024, 12:10:28 pmAnother example of misrepresenting me. "Wishing the repair was cheaper" isn't anything I have said. Please don't put words in my mouth.I am advocating for the customer NOT being billed for a non-repair, UNLESS they have been warned in advance that this might happen and are willing to go ahead taking that risk.There is an awful lot of noisy outrage in this thread, but my opinion is simple and summarised in that single sentence. And nobody has yet made a good argument why that can't be standard practice.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 02:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 04, 2024, 01:39:55 pmI think the problem is whether you believe it or not, you are paying for the expertise/knowledge in addition to the repair of your good. You say you don't care if the tech has to poke/guess as long as he gets it right but you do. You're saying you would trust your car to a mechanic who just pokes/guesses around as long as he fixes it? Okay so he guesses right that one time. How bout the next time you need your car fixed? He cuts the brake line and then you die in firey crash. So that is what you are paying for as well. The expertise, the knowledge. The work that is being performed (diagnostics, troubleshooting, restoration, soldering, etc) that gets done even if the repair doesn't get completed. Have you ever had to go to court? Well in most cases, you are paying for that attorney's time whether you are found guilty or innocent. It is no different here. We can use the car analogy again: you are still paying for the labor that goes into the repair of your car even if they don't fix it. Doesn't mean you can't complain and say that is unfair. We can say a lot of things are unfair, but that is the way it is. And that is why you take it to a good/experienced tech who might be able to tell you right off the bat (as David A said) that this isn't worth repairing; it may not end in success; etc. I don't think you deserve any hate for your opinion because it is a valid question to ask, but 'no fix, no fee' ain't fair either.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 04:37:29 pm
content: Quote from: fmashockie on July 04, 2024, 02:24:40 pmThe no fix/no fee may not be fair on the technician, but paying a technician to not fix your appliance is not fair on the customer, either.I've noticed a worrying number of contributors to this thread seem to have the attitude "I'm incredibly smart and wonderful and my time is incredibly valuable (even though I can't fix the appliance), so I'm going to charge the customer the full whack anyway, and they can eat shit" (to paraphrase, obviously!). In other words all the risk is on the customer, none on the technician.The arrogance I've seen in this thread has been extraordinary. "If I can't fix it, it can't possibly be because I'm incompetent, it must be the fault of the appliance" seems to embody the attitude of a worrying number of contributors.Psycopaths and money-grabbing sociopaths might feel comfortable with that level of arrogance and the complete lack of empathy for the customer, but I don't.That's why I've been begging these contributors to at least consider a small change of practice to one of the following:1/ If there is a possibility that the customer might have to pay your standard labour charge but still walk away with a broken appliance,then please warn them in advance that this might happen. Then it's up to them whether they want to take the risk.2/ Tell the customer they must pay for an evaluation regardless of your findings, and then give them a price range for the repair. The customer can choose to pay for the evaluation or walk away. If they choose to pay, then the next thing they will get is price range for the repair, and again they can pay up or walk away.Yes, the second option is more complicated so probably less attractive to some of the more bullish contributors.I just think it is extraordinary how so many contributors to this thread are completely unwilling to even consider taking on ANY risk, yet they are happy for the customer to risk hundreds of dollars of their hard-earned money. It doesn't sit well with me.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 05:59:38 pm
content: Regarding:QuoteReally, this will simply be part of the T&C's. That's a well-defined mechanism (and avoids the risk of the customer stating they didn't hear or see the warning or that it was too ambiguous).I think customers will expect this anyway; it's very common for some things to be unfixable or beyond economic repair, and it's very common for customers to expect to pay for this anyway.At some point, people have to learn to read contract terms, and notices on the premises of the businesses they visit, it's a life lesson that applies beyond electronic equipment repair.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 06:50:42 pm
content: Okay now you're starting to be a bit unsufferable to discuss this topic with. And are beginning to deserve some of the anger being directed towards you IMO:Quote from: SteveThackery on July 04, 2024, 04:37:29 pmNo one said anything like this. Also, you keep using the analogy of an appliance. You're discussing this with people who are mainly talking about the component level repair of PCBs. Boards that generally don't have schematics available or have parts that have become obsolete. It is a big difference. You're being a dick by trying to say that you paraphrased anyone's stance opposite to yours with the kind of language you used in the quote above.Quote from: SteveThackery on July 04, 2024, 04:37:29 pmThe people on this thread who do this for a living very much care about the customer. I'm not working independently full-time, but at my current job as an instrument engineer for a biotech company, I go above and beyond to ensure repair is done timely, cost effectively, and with full communication to the end user. Anyone who doesn't won't last long in this business. And multiple people who are opposed to your 'no fee, no fix' request already stated they inform their customers of the potential outcomes and keep them informed as the repair proceeds. You keep moving the goal-posts of your argument and you sound like your talking about some specific instance where someone ripped you off. Your 'no fee, no fix' stance also seems in line with someone who does this for a hobby and not as your full-time job (something you've also confirmed yourself eariler). This will be my last response because at this point you sound like you're just trying to rile people up (i.e. trolling). Is this what happens to people in the UK around the 4th of July?Final observation: the fact that you are calling the people in this thread sociopaths as you continue to 'like' every post made in opposition to you is also ironic.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 07:27:05 pm
content: Hmmmm.. a user who makes wacky posts and then proceeds to argue with everyone while also liking every post....Doesn't that sound familiar..... F... Fa... Fai..... Fair....

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 09:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 04, 2024, 04:37:29 pmAnd what about your lack of empathy for the technician? You expect them to work for free!In the end, you are approaching this entire thing with the woefully mistaken premise that a repair is a thing you can buy. It isn’t. It’s aservice, and an unpredictable one at that because the job itself (as in, the work and materials required) are not known in advance.You are also making the assumption that technicians don’t already lay out clearly to their customers what happens if a repair cannot be performed. But the fact is, they generally do. A given technician will lay out whether you are paying for their time (equivalent to a factory worker who is paid by the hour) or for a particular result (equivalent to a factory worker who is paid piecework). Then you take it or leave it. And you’ll understand that each model has its pros and cons for the consumer. It’s not as black and white as you clearly think it is.So in the end, this is a very disingenuous discussion on your part, because it’s predicated on falsehoods and baseless assumptions (or at minimum, gross overgeneralization). One of those is that technicians are greedy “sociopaths” who view their customers as little more than ATMs. Why would you assume this? Seems like classic projection to me. And to the many honest technicians who care for their customers and often go above and beyond what is actually required, it’s no wonder we take umbrage at your insinuation.Thereisarrogance in this thread, but it has a singular source, and that source isyou.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 11:26:21 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on July 03, 2024, 01:58:09 pmI know the show you're talking about and it always pissed me off. I recall ones where a VCR had the capstan belt flicked off, another where the thermostat on a fridge was disconnected and more. They were not genuine faults, rather they were shock TV to rile up audiences and gain ratings. They should have been ashamed to portray the service industry so poorly.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2024, 11:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 04, 2024, 07:27:05 pmI'm 98% convinced at this point that this is what's going on here. Nobody is this fucking stupid, it has to be a wind up. And if the dunce cap fits...

author: Runco990
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 01:30:05 am
content: Here's a fun one.... And why I say if you don't like something, learn to do it yourself.3 years ago I moved into my current house. Over the winter I found a leak in the roof. It was pretty bad. This house has concrete tile, for reference.In the spring I had a roofer look at it. He said, and I quote: "I can probably fix this in an hour, but I'm not going to, UNLESS you agree to a new roof next summer." (At $55,000!! )I calmly told him I can't commit to that and I don't much take to extortion. Thank you for your time.I did my research, took down the tiles, put new Ice and water barrier up, put the tiles back down and what do you know.... it's fixed! Total outlay: One roll of water and ice membrane, nails, one ladder and a few days of MY time. Total cost... about $200.Don't like it? LEARN TO DO IT YOURSELF!!! I practice what I preach. I have repaired my furnace, AC unit, washing machine, all the faucets in the house, roof, the DEAD spa in the backyard, rebuilt the in sink garbage disposal, repaired some duct work, corrected a few "what the hell???" fixes in the house and repaired 2 split sprinkler pipes... oh yeah, also fixed the garage doors after getting a quote that would choke a horse to death.I just do it myself and LEARN to do it. That is also how I got so good at repairing other people's stuff. There ARE exceptions: I had my old house painted. I could do it, but in the time someone else painted it, I sat on my shop stool and worked. I made DOUBLE what it cost me to paint the house, instead of NOTHING had I DONE SO MYSELF.So if you don't agree with pretty standard business practices, as TIME is Money.... and we only have so much time to give before we die, then learn to do it yourself because you really SHOULD.... and only YOU can decide what your limited time is worth. And then if you DON'T succeed at a task, you have no one to blame but yourself. No fix, no pay. Remember, we ALL trade part of our LIFE itself for money, by working and earning a check. That time is irrevocable. You will wake up one morning, old and tired and worn out. You better get something for it to be worth sacrificing your LIFE.I get the argument, but I fully understand the value of time and make a point of thanking other people for THEIR time.Trump said it well when he was told to exercise: "I have only so many heartbeats, I'm not wasting any of them running on a treadmill"Cheers!

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 07:40:28 am
content: Quote from: Runco990 on July 05, 2024, 01:30:05 amI have to disagree with Trump here. Even if you would have a finite number of heartbeats, exercising makes your heart go fast during the exercise period, while slowing it down while not exercising. As most people have much more off-exercise time than on-exercise time this would give you more total hearttime. Which you then can spend repairing more stuff

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 07:54:04 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 04, 2024, 07:27:05 pmSorry - I have no idea what this alludes to.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 07:55:39 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on July 04, 2024, 11:53:12 pmI am - I am this fucking stupid, apparently. It's no wind-up.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 08:38:21 am
content: Quote from: fmashockie on July 04, 2024, 06:50:42 pmIt is not ironic! "Liking" a post is my way of saying "thank you" to everyone who takes the time to contribute. And I am genuinely grateful, regardless of how vigorously we disagree.By the way, I didn't call anyone here a sociopath. I said that sociopaths "might feel comfortable" with the behaviour I was referring to because it showed a lack of empathy with the customer. It's a way of drawing attention to what seems to me like extraordinary behaviour.There is arrogance in this thread, but it has a singular source, and that source is you.Wow! I don't believe I have shown any arrogance at all, but maybe we define arrogance differently. I think there HAS been A LOT of arrogance and lack of empathy from the professional repairers in this thread. For example, the very thought that a technician might sometimes end up doing work without pay fills them with horror and outrage, but they cannot seem to understand that this is EXACTLY ANALOGOUS to the customer paying money and getting nothing back. The latter is fine, apparently, but not the former.I know exactly what my opponents are going to say: "They aren't getting nothing back, they're getting half a day of my highly skilled work". At which point I remind you of this, which I have been saying consistently from the beginning.NOBODY WANTS TO BUY YOUR LABOUR, THEY WANT TO BUY THEFRUITSOF YOUR LABOUR! AND IF THERE ARE NO FRUITS, WHAT ARE YOU CHARGING THEM FOR?QuoteMy use of the term "appliance" was just a generic term to refer to anything that needs fixing, in the context of this thread anything electronic. It isn't an analogy.I can't let the absurd claim that the only arrogance in this thread is from me. I'll show you plenty of examples later on. Meanwhile, what's this "F... Fa... Fai" thing all about?

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 09:19:08 am
content: Nope. The customer doesn't always expect a simple pay money = fixed item. Customers often want an honest assessment and expect to pay for it. That's my experience anyway.

author: DeepLink
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 11:33:49 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 05, 2024, 08:38:21 amMy employer does it every day, he pays me by the hour for developing "the big next thing the world can't live without"If I fail, I still get paidIf I succeeds, I get paid and he get richHe takes some risk

author: ifonlyeverything
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 11:43:16 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 05, 2024, 08:38:21 amCompensation for time spent analyzing the device and determining whether or not a repair is feasible. If the repair is feasible then it's customary for additional time to be billed for the repair. I'm not an engineer -- I work in professional services. Consultation fees are customary in many professional services with absolutely no guarantee of outcome. The client pays for an expert intake analysis which determines the path forward, if any. If the consultation is "at no cost" then it's baked into other services -- there's no such thing as a free lunch.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 12:41:12 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 05, 2024, 08:38:21 amThere is arrogance in this thread, but it has a singular source, and that source is you.Wow! I don't believe I have shown any arrogance at all, but maybe we define arrogance differently. I think there HAS been A LOT of arrogance and lack of empathy from the professional repairers in this thread. For example, the very thought that a technician might sometimes end up doing work without pay fills them with horror and outrage, but they cannot seem to understand that this is EXACTLY ANALOGOUS to the customer paying money and getting nothing back. The latter is fine, apparently, but not the former.I know exactly what my opponents are going to say: "They aren't getting nothing back, they're getting half a day of my highly skilled work". At which point I remind you of this, which I have been saying consistently from the beginning.NOBODY WANTS TO BUY YOUR LABOUR, THEY WANT TO BUY THEFRUITSOF YOUR LABOUR! AND IF THERE ARE NO FRUITS, WHAT ARE YOU CHARGING THEM FOR?QuoteMy use of the term "appliance" was just a generic term to refer to anything that needs fixing, in the context of this thread anything electronic. It isn't an analogy.I can't let the absurd claim that the only arrogance in this thread is from me. I'll show you plenty of examples later on. Meanwhile, what's this "F... Fa... Fai" thing all about?There is a member called "Faringdon", who often starts argumentative threads.Yours is eerily similar.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 08:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 05, 2024, 08:38:21 amJust because youwantto only buy the fruits of your labor doesn't mean you're entitled to having that wish fulfilled!The alternative -- which some service providers do choose to do -- is to bake the cost of unsuccessful repairs into the prices they charge the customers who have successful repairs.To use your merchandise analogy: when you buy fish from a fishmonger, you can choose to take the whole fish (guts and all), the cleaned fish, or to have him filet it. But no matter what, he's going to put the whole fish on the scales first and charge you that price, regardless of whether you take home the guts, scales, head and bones or not. If you buy fish filets that are already fileted, then the cost of the waste bits of the fish has been precalculated into the price for the filets, which is much higher than for the whole fish. So youarepaying for the guts, scales, head and bones, whether you realize it or not.No product has 100% yield, and the waste is always calculated into the price, one way or another. It's bizarre that you think services behave any differently. But not as bizarre as the fact that you think people should work for free...

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 09:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 05, 2024, 07:54:04 amIf that's really true then you should never take a 23andMe genetic test. There is a good chance you have a brother you don't know about.....

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 09:33:38 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 05, 2024, 08:54:19 pmYou can (or use to), encounter such a concept, at least in the UK.Consider a hairdresser.There is the standard charge, for simplicity, lets call it £10(-) .. £15(+) for a haircut, by a standard, experienced/qualified hairdressing professional.The same hairdresser, my occasionally offer reduced prices (or even free), I can't remember exactly, by I think it was something like half-price, or reduced price, as a minimum.If you let the trainee hairdressers, cut your hair.So, a similar concept,couldapply, to an upcoming, not yet properly experienced/(qualified if/as necessary)/equipped/etc, repair individual/shop/entity.I suspect the right/better way to do it, is for the repair person/company, to offer such a service (free, unless we succeed in repairing your device), on a case by case basis.I.e. Only with certain types of repair, and certain (trustworthy/suitable) customers, with perhaps other stipulations.E.g. Some faults, by their description, can sound like the repairer, has a reasonable or better idea, as to what is wrong. So, success is likely, and finding out it is unrepairable/uneconomic etc, would be reasonably quick.If it was a PC, an estimation of the parts and repair time, is not too difficult. So for a competent PC repair technician, accepting a free, unless we fix it. Wouldn't sound too bad.But other electronics repair, especially to the individual electronic component level, can be problematic/expensive/risky, as already mentioned by many others, in this thread.But if it is building up, an upcoming repairer's, experience level. Without them needing to pay (possibly lots of money), paying for learning resources (such as actual qualifications). With perhaps significant upfront costs, no guarantee of final success.Possibly needing financial resources, that the person involved, simply doesn't have access to, at the moment (i.e. a sort of chicken and egg situation).Then maybe, it could be a solution.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 10:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 05, 2024, 08:54:19 pmRe. that final point.Loads of contributors to this thread take the same position: their labour should be rewarded whether or not they succeed in repairing the customer's appliance/widget/whatever. They are horrified and outraged at the very suggestion that they might have to work for no pay. Hence the universal rejection of the "no fix/no fee" concept.These same people seemingly cannot put themselves in the shoes of their customers. "No fix/no fee" is an outrageous idea, but "fee/no fix" is perfectly fair, apparently.I observe that these contributors have a degree of arrogance that makes me uncomfortable - the absolute certainty that they can do no wrong. If they succeed it shows how smart they are and how valuable - $200 per hour valuable. If they fail it's never that they haveactuallyfailed, it's that the spares are unavailable, or it's not cost-effective, or any other excuse, but NEVER that they have reached the limit of their skillset. So that'll be $200 per hour please, thank you kindly.I don't think I've come across any other group who show such hubris, who will not even consider the possibility that sometimes they will try and fail.Which brings me to my original and fundamental point. No matter what you like to tell yourself, no customer wants your labour - they want thefruitsof your labour. I wish you guys would at leastconsiderthe customer's position when you cannot deliver what they want.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 10:57:59 pm
content: Repeating your delusions one more time won’t make them any less unreasonable than they were the first time around.

author: ifonlyeverything
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 11:00:09 pm
content: I've never seen someone so insistent on working for free, with a complete disregard for his most precious and uncertain commodity (time.)

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2024, 11:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 05, 2024, 10:34:02 pmYou keep missing the point. You're paying for someone to work on your equipment. Ideally the outcome will be that it is repaired, but it is not the only possibility. I do agree that repairers need to be clear up front about this. If the repairer guarantees that it's fixed or no charge, that's fine. I have seen computer repair people offer that, but there is always a * next to that statement. I haven't looked carefully, but I expect that it means the "no fix, no fee" doesn't apply if you simply decline due to costs or whatever and that's completely fair too.By the way, I got my work van back from the dealer later that day with a report and quote to fix the issue. I declined to go ahead with the fix due to the cost and down time (the issue is not related to safety or roadworthy). Did I hope it might have been something simple and covered under the minimum fee? Yes, but it wasn't. I paid the $165 diagnostic bill and was not bitter about it at all. They did their job.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 12:17:39 am
content: Repairer is not god, they are more like Doctor or lawyer. Talk "no fix no fee" to them, one shall refer you to mental hospital, another shall happily talk endlessly with you. And when you are done, charge you for every second of his time talking to you.Some problem cannot be fixed, best is don't even try in the first place. Money back, is a no fee from me.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 04:37:28 am
content: The troll comment may well apply because:You have said you substantially agree with the widely accepted practice of charging an evaluation fee which non-refundable, and substantially agree with attempt to repair with no guarantee of success as long as that is presented ahead of time.Yet you continue to complain.Perhaps you represent the intersection of those who choose not to read a contract before signing with those who don't at least summarize the contract verbally before presenting to the customer. But you appear to be unsatisfied until everyone here says "You are right"You rail about the difference between the results of labor and labor itself. But the difference is fuzzier than you present. The universe is full of broken items. There is a gradient between those broken items that anyone can repair and those that are unrepairable almost regardless of the skill set and resources of the repairer. Technically I don't think there is anything that is unrepairable, given enough resources. An unobtainable chip? Just set up a semiconductor fab for the appropriate technology (including all of the feedstock and everything), reverse engineer the chip and fab it. This would take literally millions of dollars, but doesn't break any physical laws. I believe there is value to the customer in knowing where in that gradient their precious lies, even if the repair is deemed impractical. That is what you are buying, not the hours. It may not be what you intended to buy, but that is a misunderstanding. The blame for that misunderstanding is shared by both parties in the transaction.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 09:36:30 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on July 05, 2024, 09:33:38 pmYears ago, my mom used to sometimes get her hair cut at the local hairdressing school. Haircut practically free, done by a student stylist under the supervision of a teacher, as I understand.Regardless, this thread isn’t about trainees, though. I don’t think anyone would consider it reasonable to charge customers full price for a novice trainee to do the work on their own. Troubleshooting electronics requires a lot of experience, as you know.What is perfectly fair IMHO is for a shop to let a trainee do certain things under the supervision of an expert, but bill only the time it would have taken the expert to do it.Or to draw from a recent experience, a friend had a plumber over to do some work (several distinct things). The plumber came with an apprentice, who did some of the work at the same time the graybeard did others. So even with the “downtime” of the expert explaining things to the apprentice sometimes, in total there were about 1.5 persons worth of work being done. The billing was for the expert plumber only, the apprentice’s work was essentially free.When I first started working as an onsite Mac consultant, for the first month or so, my boss had me tag along to meet all the clients and show me their configurations. (Most of the clients had us come every week or two.) And of course so the boss could get a feel for whether I was good enough to unleash on the clients unsupervised.So on the first couple of visits at a given client, they got me there for free. Once I knew the client and their setup well enough, then I would go on my own, or on big jobs, boss and I would both go and then bill for both of us.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 11:35:38 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 05, 2024, 10:57:59 pmI believe they aren't delusions, I believe them to be valid points. It's a poor way of arguing to resort to terms like "delusions".QuoteNo, no, NO!YOUkeep missing the point!!. I am NOT paying for "someone to work on my equipment". What possible value or purpose is there in someone "working on it"? I DON'T WANT YOU WORKING ON IT! I WANT YOUFIXINGIT!!Why is this so hard for you to understand?Quote from: all_repair on July 06, 2024, 12:17:39 amBad analogy. There are entire companies of accident claim lawyers who work on a "no win no fee basis". It's a normal business model.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 06, 2024, 04:37:28 amStop calling me a troll. Insulting each other has no place in a polite discussion. I believe my argument to be completely valid. You believe your argument to be completely valid. I believe you are totally wrong, and actually immoral in the way you conduct your business. You believe it's OK for a customer to pay for a non-repair, I believe it's not OK. You believe I am totally wrong and some kind of a nutter for suggesting a technician might have to do some work without pay. I believe you are equally nuts to suggest a customer should have to pay for nothing.You clearly have a very low opinion of me. I won't tell you what I think if you because I'mpolite.We are clearly at an impasse, so there is no point in continuing.However, I would like to thank everyone who has engaged in the debateconstructively. It's a shame one or two didn't, but I guess any group of people has one or two disagreeable members.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 12:38:28 pm
content: There's too much to try and quote from you SteveThackery, but Idk how someone who has been on this earth for at least 45 years (you said you've worked on watches that long) doesn't understand this concept. Even after it has been explained to you by people who are in the business. Which is why I assume you are a troll because you seem to lack an understanding of how the world works (whether intentionally or you are just that niave at say ~50-60 yrs old?).I assume you think when you buy a perscription drug, an artpiece, or anything for that matter, you are just buying the phsyical object that is in front of you? Well you are not. All that is factored into that price is time spent, the labor, the materials, the R&D. It is no different for someone offering a repair service. It doesn't matter what you think you are paying for, that IS what you are paying for; the time spent working on it; the materials put into it; the knowledge/expertise/wisdom used to diagnose it. That is what you are paying for in reality. It doesn't matter what you think you are paying for in your head.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 02:18:48 pm
content: Thanks for your considered reply, @fmashockie.I just want to check how the following scenario works in your mind.I am a bit rubbish at electronics. I have relatively little experience or training. I try to fix things, but I really struggle if I can't find a circuit diagram. Several times I have come across a complex electronic product, and my lack of experience means I cannot identify what each part of a circuit board actually does. I often have to give up on a repair because I just can't work out what is wrong with it.Nevertheless, I rather like the idea of making a living by repairing electronic products. I know I'll do well because I can charge $200 per hour no matter how long it takes me, and I can even charge the same labour rate if I fail to find and fix the fault. So I set myself up as an electronics repair shop.@fmashocie, would you bring a device for me to repair? I doubt it, because you know about electronics and you've read my confession above.How comfortable are you that other people - unsuspecting people - are bringing me stuff to repair, and being charged the same hourly rate as you? Wouldn't you want to warn them against using me?But everything that has been said in this thread implies that I should be allowed to carry on. Me charging $200 per hour is completely fine because you think I should never work for free, even when I'm out of my depth. All I'm expected to do is "work on" the product for that time, even If I'm just poking around with a scope probe and hoping for the best.Is that really OK? I know that you will say "That bloke will soon go out of business", but customers rarely know when they've been ripped off because they weren't able to fix it either. Are you comfortable with me setting up shop a couple of doors away from you and being a competitor? You might say market forces will sort things out, but that can take a long time.I'm putting this argument because it gives an illustration of what is wrong with your preferred business model. According to that model, all labour is valuable and must be paid for, no matter what. No matter how long he takes to do a simple job, and no matter how often he returns an unrepaired item. But honestly, would you REALLY support that guy?I'm just trying to illustrate how questionable your argument is - it takes no account of the real skills a repairer might be offering.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 02:28:00 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 11:35:38 amIt’s obvious youbelievethem. But that doesn’tmakethem valid.A paranoid schizophrenic who is suffering from delusions doesn’t realize they’re delusions, either. Yet objectively, they are.Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 11:35:38 amPlease quote othersproperly. If you have multiple quotes, and only the first contains an author attribution, it is assumed that subsequent quotes are from the same author. In this case, it makes it appear as though I said the “You keep missing the point!” when in fact it is from someone else. Misattributing quotes is a way to get yourself hated hard,fast.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 02:33:22 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 02:18:48 pmI think it’s been a (perfectly reasonable) assumption that we are all discussing technicians who are:1. Trained and competent in the type of work they offer2. HonestYour contrived situations of dishonest, untrained rip-off artists do nothing to validate your point. But they do make you look like a disingenuous crank.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 02:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 02:18:48 pmI'm going to assume you're talking about yourself here and your lack of skills. But if you wanted to do that, then go ahead. Doesn't mean you're going to get continued business or bad reviews. And not because your policy is 'no fix, no fee', it is because you suck at what you do. And like any service you pay for, if you're smart, you research it before you move forward with it. You look at reviews and reputation. Again, here you go using extreme examples to prove your ridiculous point. It's like saying "well it would be preposterous to go sky-diving at all, because there's going to be someone who isn't going to check your parachute beforehand; and for that reason no one should be able to take anyone sky-diving".

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 03:07:59 pm
content: I am sorry the troll word offends the OP. I am equally offended by his dismissal of my constructive comments afterward explaining why I said that that word might apply.I agree with the OPs example of an incompetent technician charging for non work being unfair. But as others have pointed out, that is a business model that doesn't survive long and isn't representative of an industry.OP uses the injury lawyer industry as an example of the no win no pay business model. But neglects to mention that that industry charges extremely high rates when winning, typically one third of any awards, and sometimes adding expenses to the fee. It is the reason this industry is called without affection "ambulance chasers" This is exactly the situation discussed earlier where those with successful repairs are amortizing the costs of unsuccessful repairs.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 03:15:48 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 06, 2024, 03:07:59 pmi haven't dismissed anything! What's wrong with you?I have read carefully every post in this thread and - apart from one - I appreciate them all. As it happens I disagree with most of them, but that is NOT dismissing them!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 03:15:56 pm
content: I wonder if those 'explaining' that an hourly rate is the only way to do business might be in the camp that abhors the switch from one-off fee for a perpetual license to a subscription model for software.Of course, the difference is that here most are on the supplier side of the fence for repairs and think the customer should cough for their (the repairer's) right to make a profit in their chosen field. For software, it's the vendors responsibility to make a business out of what someone is will to buy.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 03:29:02 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 06, 2024, 03:15:56 pmThe subscription model in the repair industry has a different name. It is called insurance. The difference from the software industry is that it is optional.What they software and insurance industry have in common is that there is at most a carefully limited guarantee of performance.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 03:36:54 pm
content: Quote from: fmashockie on July 06, 2024, 02:57:15 pmOF COURSE I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MYSELF! SHEESH! I spent a good part of my career as an electronics bench tech.I'm constructing an example that apparently passes all your criteria for a professional repairer - and therefore is free to charge $200 per hour whether successful or not - to illustrate how absurd your argument is that said repairer is completely entitled to charge $200 for providing a shit service AND THERE IS NOTHING THE CUSTOMER CAN DO ABOUT IT!According to you guys the inept repairer - who has spent all day pissing about resoldering the PCB - is acting COMPLETELY FAIRLY by charging the poor customer $1600 for eight hours labour and returning it still broken.Come on, get real!!Yes, OF COURSE I'm exaggerating to describe one end of the spectrum, but let's get real, guys: EVERY ONE OF YOU is somewhere on that spectrum! The level of expertise will vary between you. You must acknowledge that sometimes you just get it wrong. My exaggerated example gets it wrong every time, but YOU get it wrong some of the time. You do, don't you?!I reckon you will agree with me that the inept repairer I constructed as an extreme example probably shouldn't get paid at all. So if you are anywhere on that spectrum that has him at one end, then maybe there's the odd time when you don't deserve to be paid either.Once you have become a perfect repairer who never gets anything wrong, ie you're at the extreme opposite end from my imaginary man, maybe then you should ALWAYS deserve to be paid. But not until you arrive there.I've got a theory. My theory is that almost all the respondents on this thread are American. If so, it suggests that the concepts of honour and fair play don't extend across the Atlantic from my country (UK).

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 03:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 03:36:54 pmAt this point, it looks like you are Troll Baiting, in the quoted section, or whatever it should be called.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_bait

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 03:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 06, 2024, 03:29:02 pmI don't think they are much different at the bottom. In software the developer spends time and money on something they hope will attract buyers, but it may not and they will then make a loss after all that effort. The repairer, in that context, would attempt the repair but in the end may not manage it and make a loss.I can see that the repairer can have unforeseen costs - parts that weren't obviously broken (or are replaced just to make sure), or a cascade of issue. But the software developer has similar unforeseen costs. The main difference is that (for fixed price) the developer would price his work at the end whereas the repairer would have to price it at the start. However, in essence they are very similar - the repairer may under-quote and be lumbered with a below-cost price, but the developer may expend all those costs assuming his product could sell for X whereas no-one will buy unless it is X/2 and he's similarly lumbered with a below-costs return.The subscription model makes software development like the repair job - instead of the developer carrying the cost of development and then attempting to recoup it through sales, the purchaser (subscriber) carries the cost and may not end up with a better product (and may even not want a 'better' product!). It is all about moving the risk from the developer to the purchaser, and with repairs that risk is already with the purchaser.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 04:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 06, 2024, 03:15:56 pmQuoteNo. That's not how products (hardware or software) are normally developed. You're focussing on some 'flying by the seat of your pants' way of working that only a tiny amount of orgs will use.Every single thing a (reputable) business does is (ultimately) customer-focused. It has nothing to do with 'passing the risk' to the customer. You might be surprised to learn that subscription models work great for many customers. If it doesn't work well for someone, then that customer should not have been sold that particular product. You don't foist unwanted products or pricing models on your customers; you won't last long in that business if you do.And, getting back roughly on point, it's a fallacy to think that customers feel they are being unfairly treated or receiving no benefit from a diagnosis or expert opinion if a repair is found to be not possible.There are bad bargains to be had everywhere if you look for it. Read the terms, decide if you're comfortable doing business with someone, and then proceed on that basis. If you feel you didn't get what was contracted, then you can take them to court.Even if say a lawyer is qualified, it doesn't mean they are any good. There are things that one could do, such as ask how long they have been practicing law or practicing repair, or ask others for feedback (TrustPilot etc) and use their answer(s) to further guide you. A lawyer or an engineer equally isn't going to last long in their respective professions if they are not any good.There are well-established mechanisms for getting precisely what you've paid for, or compensation for one party or the other in some way concerning money, and those involve contracts.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 04:46:08 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 03:36:54 pmI know I said this before, but this will be my last point! For someone who is so concerned about everyone in this thread not having empathy for the customer or the end user, I think it speaks volumes that if you were to look at each member in opposition to you; look at the history of their replies/comments, you would see the majority of their posts were aimed at helping others in this forum (for free btw). Whereas you, the majority of your posts have been in this ridiculous thread you started. Have a nice life.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 05:33:22 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on July 06, 2024, 03:41:07 pmDon't be boring by banging on about trolling. It's very tedious. If you've got nothing constructive to say, then please don't say anything. The grown-ups are having a conversation, so don't interrupt.I actually do think there is a cultural difference between the US and the UK when it comes to business practices. I am not being facetious. I think there is a much clearer and simpler attitude to profit in the US. Making a profit is considered honourable and reasonable, and even laudable. In the UK there is still a hint of "dishonour" or "greedy" about it. We are just slightly uncomfortable with the idea of profit. The distinction between making a profit and profiteering is paper-thin on this side of the pond.I think there is another cultural difference, too, around individualism. The US is far ahead of the UK in terms of individualism, and individuals looking out primarily for themselves. Making a profit from failure (as I've been talking about above) seems to be morally OK in the US, because the culture is all about putting yourself first. Others are responsible for their own success and well-being. It's not your job to look after someone who struggles to look after themselves.Since 1979 (when Thatcher was made Prime Minister) Britain has been on a journey away from collectivism, towards individualism. We've a way to go before we catch up with the US, but we are certainly going that way. Old bastards like me remember the time before Thatcher and regret the growth of individualism.Maybe this is why I might be instinctively more reluctant to make a customer pay when I haven't repaired their product. I don't know, maybe I'm talking crap.----Well, guys, I think I'm about talked out, and I have learned a lot from you all and taken on board many of your arguments. The one I simply cannot move on with a clear conscience is this (which I still find astonishing and hard to believe):"I am being paid to work on the customer's product, not to repair it. If it does get repaired, great, we're both happy. But if not, I'm still going to charge the same amount because it's my labour that is being paid for, not the fruits of my labour."To which my response is BULLSHIT! The customer doesn't want your labour, they want thefruitsof your labour. Your business model is outrageously unfair on the customer, because you can fail, and fail, and fail again, and still go home every day with another $1,600 in your pocket. It's "Heads I win, tails you lose".Your argument that "market forces" will weed out the numpties isn't much help to those poor customers, though, is it? And if repairers are in short supply, market forces don't come into play.It is also astonishingly arrogant to believe that your time is worth $200 per hour even when you've no clue what you're doing. That's what happens when a computer expert gets an audio amp to fix. You'll still charge $200 per hour, won't you? We both know you will.Anyway, we've hit the buffers on this debate and I've come away saddened by the arrogance some people have expressed ("I'm worth $200 per hour whether I know what I'm doing or not") and some people's lack of empathy for the customer ("Fix or no fix, you owe me $1600 for the day I spent poking at your audio amp and hoping for the best").Nothing more to say, is there?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 05:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: fmashockie on July 06, 2024, 04:46:08 pmHelping others on this forum has nothing whatsoever to do with how you bill your customers. I am incredibly grateful for all the help the major contributors give, including to me, and in turn I've tried to help in my small way here (but mostly on other forums to do with automotive and motorcycle engineering, where I have donated thousands of answers over the years).That doesn't stop us from disagreeing vigorously on what business models we use, and the moral issues arising. It's just a debate - it isn't personal. We will (we must) agree to differ.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 05:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 05:33:22 pmHear, hear. That's exactly how I feel.If you want to see real examples of such arrogance and ineptitude, you only need to look at professional data recovery. The vast majority of data recovery professionals are little better than mechanics. When they encounter an electronic problem (ie something they can't fix from behind a keyboard), they break out a thermal camera and see what's hot and what isn't. Most either don't possess a multimeter, or don't know what to do with it. But they still charge like they are the experts at the top of the tree. Thankfully, there are many honourable individuals who operate on a no fix, no fee basis. That said, I've seen many cases where these bozos have destroyed any chance of data recovery by a competent person.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 06:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 05:33:22 pmHere we go again with your idiotic contrived situation. We established early on in the thread that EXPERTS can charge higher rates because of their expertise and experience. Nobody here except you is ever claiming that an incompetent technician is worth that.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 06:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 06, 2024, 06:32:07 pmI thought it would be clear that I was exaggerating the sums to make a point. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.I think the principle applies to all repairers though. Not all are experts. Some are experts now, after years of experience, but started out as numpties. There are degrees of expertise. There are differing labour rates.The actual labour rate isn't important - it's the principle that matters. The idea that even when you get things wrong, it's the customer that takes the hit, never the repairer. That just ain't right.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 06:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: fzabkar on July 06, 2024, 05:49:30 pmThankfully, yes. And honourable - absolutely.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 07:05:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 06, 2024, 02:28:00 pmQuote from: tooki on July 06, 2024, 02:33:22 pmQuote from: tooki on July 06, 2024, 06:32:07 pmCan you please, kindly,fuck offwith the personal attacks?You're not furthering your argument, you're only making yourself look look like the asshole here. And the rest of us by association, that we might seem to tolerate or even accept such behavior. I for one see fit to call out such behavior.Steve, for his part, has been nothing but calm and patient with his point. Insistent, unable to (or refusing to) reach or explain a common point of reference, but not "schizophrenic". At worst, "troll", an accusation first raised by myself, and I stick to the reasoning given therewith: to the extent that reasoning applies, it's a factual statement, not a personal attack. That's exactly as far as I meant to go with it, and no excuse for anyone else to go further. It is certainly not reason to make it personal.Tim

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 08:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 05:33:22 pm.... then immediately makes three more posts...

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 10:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on July 06, 2024, 08:54:49 pm😄😄 Touche! I felt it would be discourteous to ignore those posts.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 10:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 06:44:31 pmHmmm... Your take on "things go wrong" seems to include "repair is not viable / possible". How is this the repairers fault? It's your item and you asked someone to look at it.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2024, 11:38:07 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 06, 2024, 10:18:36 pmI don't think I've ever been asked to "look" at a faulty item except with a view to providing a quote for its repair. So far I haven't charged for quotes, and I can't foresee a situation where I might need to. There have been occasions where I've overestimated the amount of labour and cost of parts, and I have actually reduced the final invoice by a corresponding amount. But I don't ever recall asking the customer to eat the cost of my underestimates, and there have been plenty.As for non-viable repairs, how is that the client's fault? You are the expert, so it's up to you to assess whether something is repairable, otherwise you should take the hit if it turns out not to be.Personally, my self-esteem would prevent me from accepting payment for a repair that wasn't finalised, unless the client was fully aware that this was a possibility.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 01:14:41 am
content: Quote from: fzabkar on July 06, 2024, 11:38:07 pmMany years ago I never charged an upfront fee. Some people brought in their items and despite me advising them of the costs involved, they didn't collect their item (fixed or not) because they'd changed their mind in the meantime and bought a new one. Others would backtrack on our verbal agreement and not want to pay for my time. This was despite me advising them upfront about the costs involved. The upfront fee has filtered out most of the time wasters. I still get people who ask (mostly via phone) about repairing an item and once I tell them about my fees, they go no further. That's fine too. I'm not twisting their arm to book their item in and pay me.Quote from: fzabkar on July 06, 2024, 11:38:07 pmI will often err on the high side of the range when some asks for an estimate, but I don't take that as an invitation to charge that if it ended up taking less time (or parts). I have charged customers a little more than estimated (remember I didn't quote a firm price) when things took a little longer or the job needed extra parts. You have to use common sense of course and the discussion that takes place at booking in time comes into it. It's very rare for someone to be upset at that and I do explain why the end price was higher than estimated. Sometimes it's a result of finding something else that needs doing to make the item reliable, and almost every customer has appreciated me doing that for them.Quote from: fzabkar on July 06, 2024, 11:38:07 pmI can only think that the items you work on are pretty straightforward. I work on a lot of equipment that can be difficult to diagnose, or is part of a larger system. I've been repairing electronics for over 40 years and I still don't have a crystal ball insight into every issue presented to me. See my point above about wasted time.Quote from: fzabkar on July 06, 2024, 11:38:07 pmThat's been what I've talked about many times in this thread. Repairers need to proactively communicate with their customers. However, there are customers that simply don't listen to what you say and I've had a few over the years. Luckily it's a tiny percentage though. I've gotten better at sussing out potential trouble customers and will sometimes decline to do work for them.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 01:16:22 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 05:33:22 pmAt the end of the day it's this simple- your entire point is based on arguments and situations you've made up in your own mind. You've worked yourself up over imaginary events that never happened and then spent 6 pages screaming at people about how unfair the conditions in your hallucinations are. Seek help.Also, how do you not understand that every repairer who has responded to youalso uses the services of other professionals? Whether it's mechanics or doctors or HVAC technicians or whatever, does it actually register in that thing inside your skull that we as repairers are also customers and therefore understand both sides of this?

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 01:21:58 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 02:18:48 pmOf course this a bad situation for the customer, but the market does seem to weed out most businesses that are like this. Sure, it could take a while to happen but you could apply this to most businesses. Reputation and reviews are useful and so much easier to verify these days.

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 02:19:47 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 05:33:22 pmIn my experience, the way its typically done here (Australia) is, and this is dependent on industry, but assuming electronics repair, is that a repair shop will charge a flat fee for diagnosis, plus repair time and parts on top of that only off the customer agrees to the quoted price.When you bring something in for repair, you are not paying just for labour, you are paying for the skills and knowledge required to diagnose what the problem actually is and then quote on the repair.This covers all bases, customer is knows upfront what their out of pocket will be to find out what the problem is and if its financially viable to repair and then is not hit will bill shock when hit with a repair bill higher than the product is actually worth.I would not take my item for repair to a shop that does not have a fixed service charge to determine what the problem is before any work is undertaken. My mechanic does that, I know that I am up for the equivalent of 1 hours labour for him to diagnose the problem with my car, even if it takes him 4 hours to do so, and then I pay for time and parts after he has quoted me those costs. There is never any bill shock, I know exactly what I am getting before we start. Plumber, electrician etc etc all the same, call out fee to determine scope of works and quote on the actual repair.None of this I will rip everyone off cause i can crap. I would not deal with people like that.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:21:27 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 06, 2024, 07:05:31 pmWhat thread have you been reading Tim? Here's a few of Steve's quotes. Not including putting words in other member's mouths including my own under the guise of 'paraphrasing':"I've noticed a worrying number of contributors to this thread seem to have the attitude "I'm incredibly smart and wonderful and my time is incredibly valuable (even though I can't fix the appliance), so I'm going to charge the customer the full whack anyway, and they can eat shit" (to paraphrase, obviously!). In other words all the risk is on the customer, none on the technician." - Steve"The arrogance I've seen in this thread has been extraordinary. "If I can't fix it, it can't possibly be because I'm incompetent, it must be the fault of the appliance" seems to embody the attitude of a worrying number of contributors" -Steve"Psycopaths and money-grabbing sociopaths might feel comfortable with that level of arrogance and the complete lack of empathy for the customer, but I don't." -Steve"I've got a theory. My theory is that almost all the respondents on this thread are American. If so, it suggests that the concepts of honour and fair play don't extend across the Atlantic from my country (UK)." -SteveBut yea, personal attacks are bad.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:23:06 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 05:33:22 pmIt's been tricky for me to reply to your post, but I will try."Don't be boring by banging on about trolling. It's very tedious. If you've got nothing constructive to say, then please don't say anything. The grown-ups are having a conversation, so don't interrupt."Seems to be accusing me of going or being off-topic.Yet, the rest of your post, seems to be a long political or similar post, with little to do, with the thread topic. If my quick glances at it, indicate correctly.Given that you seem to have the UK flag set, and be talking and trying to sound like someone from the UK.How come, all your prices are in dollars ($), e.g. see the post I just quoted.Is that a Freudian slip-up, or is there another explanation?

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 05:35:07 am
content: Pretty sure the OP is a troll, but the thread reminds me of something I heard quipped during a supplier-customer debate about costs.The supplier who was being pressed to write off large swathe of labour retorted:"All these other people you know who work for free, bring them to me for I have work aplenty for them"

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 07:18:08 am
content: Quote from: bookaboo on July 07, 2024, 05:35:07 amWho is asking you to work for free? Is this just more troll bait?Unless you are lucky enough to be involved in a niche market with little competition, as I was, then you face obvious constraints. The first is that you can't just set your terms in a vacuum, and the second is that your ultimate price has to be much less than the replacement cost of the device. The second condition alone should be enough to kill off any open-ended hourly rate business model.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 07:20:10 am
content: 6 pages already ...

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 08:48:38 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on July 07, 2024, 04:23:06 amI'm sorry for being rude, but it really pisses me off to be accused of being a "troll" when I am no such thing. I am arguing for something I believe in passionately, and every statement I make - including the critical ones - is heartfelt and genuine.So for those who continue to label me as a troll, kindly piss off.The "political" stuff you refer to is completely on-topic. It became clear that the practices most people on the thread find completely normal and acceptable, I find the opposite, and I was wondering if there could be a cultural basis to our different attitudes.You asked about dollars. I got the impression that most people in this debate are American, so I used dollars as a small courtesy.I'm also pissed off by people misrepresenting my position. I am not advocating open-ended working for free. I am putting forward an argument that - just as you sometimes expect the customer to pay for nothing*, sometimes it might be morally appropriate for you to work for nothing. This would be rare, but sometimes fair.(*) And no: the argument that the customer is paying for your labour, not the fruits of your labour, is self-serving and so full of holes it's laughable. I don't feel the need to spell all that out again for you - we've done it to death.I hope that has clarified the matters you raised. And again, I'm sorry for being rude, but I am NOT a fucking troll, and if anyone reading this is tempted to accuse me of such, either piss off or try to read and understand what I am actually advocating.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 09:11:57 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on July 07, 2024, 07:20:10 amHas Dave implemented some test, based on the contents of this thread, which you have to complete before you can read a different thread? Or can you still just shrug andignore the entire thingif it's not to your liking?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 11:47:19 am
content: So much academic discussion, in practice, the first thing practising electronics repairer does is to reject requests as politely as fast as they can. No, no one wants to take advantage of the client, their reputation is worth much more than that. Most of the time, it is the client that has not rationalised the cost and benefits, and kept wanting to hold to their wishful thinking and wanting to transfer all risk to the repairer and they get the benefits, and don't want to feel the pain of discarding their item. Repairer must not try to get into rationalising for the client, what is the value of their down time? What is the value of their sentimental attachment? What is the value of their item (that mostly can check) ? What repairer just do is reject the work if it is not worthy at all, client can change their mind easily and deposit cannot cover their time. If risk is low and cost ifls low, offer no fix no fee, or hourly rate. If risk is high and cost is high, either reject the work or offer only hourly rate.At the end of the day, what repairer aim to achieve is not just fixing the item, but giving happiness to the client. That shall bring more businesses. So of course aim for maximum profit , and serve the client that can pay. Worst is if you charge low, or below cost, on site with your petrol and car, and then ending making the client unhappy. You can charge high, and yet giving happiness. You can also charge low, or free, and yet not giving happiness. If you think the deal cannot make a happy outcome, don't close the deal. At the end, clean up the exterior and give free good quality batteries if you can.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 12:21:34 pm
content: My earlier car analogy, passenger and cargo.Both stop in the middle of a trip.Passenger car is towed away, but truck service comes to check the cargo vehicle.The truck service is an independent third party, just a part of a pool of services.Just like tow truck, a truck service van has a limited operation radius.If truck is finally towed away what will happen to the cost of truck service?Other way around.You bring in a box and ask if it can be fixed.You expect this looking for an answer is free, for how long, an hour?The beginning of this thread is very simple.High expectations and low results.Many consumer electronics repair shops around here have all kind of labels, big and small, indicating how things are priced.If I go there I can't guarantee that I see any of them.Here repair shops used to have some obligations, to give a guarantee of three months for the work they did, to store stuff for three months after they are ready to pick up.They also had some rights, after three months the ownership of not collected items were shifted.I predict that those are not less today.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 12:43:00 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 07, 2024, 08:48:38 amNow see had you stuck to being polite, calm, and patient, like you were in this post, I would have gladly entertained this continued discussion without calling you a troll or anything else someone might deem offensive or personal.But when you start assuming that because we do not advocate for "no fix, no fee" that we somehow lack empathy for the customer, or that we approve of anyone ripping customers off by selecting any hourly/fixed rate they want without the expertise/skill to back it up, then you're being an asshole. And that is exactly what you were doing.Everyone here (at least from what I read) was already in agreement with you in some respect. You stated several times that you think "no fix, no fee" is fair as long as the customer is aware beforehand that is a possible outcome. And that is exactly what people who work independently stated they do! It wasn't until you started being a dick by putting words in our mouths, quoting/paraphrasing wildly incorrectly, and throwing insults that people started calling you a troll.I've done this kind of work for over 5 years. I'm passionate about 'Right to Repair'. And empowing the customer/end user to fix things themselves. Thats one of the reasons I started a YouTube channel which has now garnered attention for me to consider taking on some independent business. Because the repair preventation strategies that equipment manufacturers employ in my industry are absurd and they piss me off. So to have someone like you assume I don't care or would advocate for ripping the customer off when I am diametrically opposed to that, really pisses me off. That is why I take it personal.Quote from: SteveThackery on July 07, 2024, 08:48:38 amYou do realize that there's a little flag next to each member's name with the country they are from? I see people from the UK, Australia, Netherlands, and Germany all in disagreement with you. So not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 01:13:36 pm
content: In addition to that, I can't help but think your reason for starting this thread was a little bit personal because it was I who renewed a thread called 'How much should I charge my customers for component level repair?' asking for advice on going into business as a private entity. And shortly after that, you started this thread.This is from a quote for an OEM in my industry for repair of a piece of lab equipment:Base charge, 6 hrs labor/travel $3246.00Fine Print: If additional time or materials are needed based on findings while on site the purchase purchase order amount will need to be increased accordingly before further work is performedSo that is what my competition charges. And they don't even do component level PCB repair. They just swap boards. I'll go head-to-head with the OEMs any day. With half the resources. So yes, I do think I'm worth the hourly rates I am considering charging privately.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 01:15:07 pm
content: QuoteAnd fmashockie is your real name.Let's not be too naive about the answers to arbitrary privacy-intrusive questions.

author: fmashockie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 01:17:21 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 07, 2024, 01:15:07 pmactually mashockie is the phonetic spelling of my last name. And f stands for Frank, my first name. So yea it kinda is. Also, if you think incorrectly picking what country you're from on this website is some concrete way to maintain your privacy, I would think that the definition of niave.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 01:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 06, 2024, 07:05:31 pmOnly one of those three quotes contains anything thatmightbe construed a personal attack, but even that one says “makes youlook likea disingenuous crank”, not “youarea disingenuous crank”.I never called him schizophrenic. I was simply illustrating via analogy that a person suffering from a delusion doesn’t know it’s a delusion.And it’s the contrived situation that I called idiotic, not him.As forhisbehavior, fmashockie covered that aspect pretty well.P.S. AndIsee fit to call out OP’s behavior.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 01:58:07 pm
content: QuoteNot at all (particularly since I've explicitly mentioned it many times). But every little helps, and "perfect is the enemy of good".Oh, and PlainName is my real name, kind of, if you move the letters about a bit. Maybe substitute a couple.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 03:02:44 pm
content: Quote from: fmashockie on July 07, 2024, 01:13:36 pmI stand by that assumption. Many posters frothed with incredulous outrage at the very idea that "no fix/no fee" should EVER be considered. So yes, if you are one of those outraged posters who believes there are NO circumstances that justify no fix/no fee, I think you DO lack empathy for the customer.Quote from: fmashockie on July 07, 2024, 01:13:36 pmI was using the well-known technique of the "logical conclusion" to illustrate that even when a position might seem reasonable at first glance, the "logical conclusion" highlights that it is actually morally bereft and profoundly selfish (for example), or based on a fallacy (for example), or is simply illogical (for example).I'm surprised I'm having to explain this to you, it being such a common tool to illuminate the dark corners of a stance someone has taken. But if it wasn't, then it's my fault and I apologise.Quote from: fmashockie on July 07, 2024, 01:13:36 pmYou've got yourself into an pickle here. I've been advocating for "no fix/no fee" from the very beginning, against enormous resistance, it must be said. I reluctantly but genuinely conceded that the opposite: "fee/no fix",mightbe justifiable if the customer is warned in advance.Quote from: fmashockie on July 07, 2024, 01:13:36 pmI haven't insulted a single person, have I? (Apart from any scumbag who called me a troll.)I also don't believe I've put words in mouths or misquoted anyone EXCEPT when doing the "logical conclusion" stuff to illustrate that the principle underlying someone's reasonable-sounding statement may actually be wrong/immoral/logically flawed/etc.Clearly I got it wrong if so many people didn't realise what I was doing and why. I thought the "logical conclusion" technique was so obvious and commonly used it didn't need any introduction. I'm sorry for getting that wrong.Quote from: fmashockie on July 07, 2024, 12:43:00 pmOoooh, no, I had no idea - I'd never even noticed the little flags. What a plonker! 😂

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 03:31:19 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 07, 2024, 03:02:44 pmNo, what we objected to with incredulity is your assertion that “no fix, no fee” is theonlymodel that’s acceptable.We have acknowledged repeatedly that some service providers do choose that model, and explained to you the ramifications of that model, including how it is unfair to the customers whose repairs subsidize the “no fix, no fee” customers.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 03:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 07, 2024, 03:31:19 pmThe implication of that "subsidy" is that the repairer believes that all customers owe him/her a living.Let's say I take my broken device to repairer A, and s/he spends 4 fruitless hours on it before writing it off as unrepairable. I then take the same device to repairer B who fixes it within an hour. Does repairer A deserve any recompense for their fruitless effort?

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:15:02 pm
content: Quote from: fzabkar on July 07, 2024, 03:59:26 pmNo, it's not the implication. Think it through.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:20:05 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 07, 2024, 08:48:38 amI think that is a good and robust answer, to my queries.Thanks!As far as I'm aware, we don't have actual evidence of the OP, being a known troll.More suspicions and accusations (me included in that activity as well).So maybe the innocent until proven guilty applies here?I was following this thread, well BEFORE I first posted in it, and I've been unhappy at so many people boo-hewing, this possible business or self-employment model.When a business or someone offers their services. There are all sorts of possible business models, they can follow. Including ones, which offer some of their services, for free.But there can be clever business model sense, in these free offerings, if done right.For example:I'm not sure if it is still offered these days. But some tyre companies, would offer free puncture repair.It worked out (my theory on why), because in many cases, such as for safety reasons. The customer will end up needing a new tyre(s). So, getting them to come round for the free puncture repairs, will often (how often is a very good question?), result in lucrative tyre sales, and maybe other services that company offers, such as Oil Changes etc.Hypothetical scenario:A computer shop, could offer cheap old computer repairs. As they either fix the computer or if it can't be economically fixed, they can sell the customer a new computer, that they sell and also charge for moving all the files from the old computer to the new one.I.e. If done right, a specific business model, can be successful and profitable.Even if it is NOT done right. That maybe how an upcoming self-employed or business, learns from their mistakes and later on improves upon and refines their business model.E.g.Amazon, started out, simple selling books online. They then improved their business model and now sell, just about anything, within reason.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 07, 2024, 09:11:57 ami would reply it is becoming very sad here to see many threads derailing that way ... and i say many until a mod is called to shut them downtrolling, religious, political .... yada yada this and thatdo you "some of you members, whom the hat fits" re-read all ?? where some here took everything so personal, and get flustered very easily .....the pay by hour ....... is not how it works in majority NOW, not happy, do it your self, or go elsewhere, if you work by tariff it's plug and play parts and voila ... but to do so, you did work hours and establish your tarifs rates .... SIMPLE AS THATnow this thread too became stupid, and people wont simply stop ... BECAUSE THEY CANT, ITS BECOME PERSONALnow the signal is if we put aside "some or many serious threads with lots of pages" IS WHEN I SEE LOTS OF PAGES OF A REALLY NEW THREAD I"LL SIMPLY SKIP ITEEVBLOG IS BECOMMING DARKER

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:35:53 pm
content: I can't understand how this thread has stretched to 7 pages. I get fed up with people thinking my (or other peoples') skills have no value, including my neighbors who seen to think that my time (and component stock) are free.As long as the repairer makes clear to the customer their terms of business, and the customer agrees to them, I can't see why there can be any problem. They form a binding contract to that effect. It doesn't matter what the repairer's charging model is as long as the customer agrees. Whether that charging model includes a fixed hourly charge, free first hour, no repair - no fee, or some other model istotally irrelevant.Until a contract is formed. The customer has the option of deciding that the cost and conditions are not worth their while and walk away. The repairer also has the option of declining to accept an item for repair.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 07, 2024, 03:31:19 pmThat's clever! But they don't. Therepairersubsidises the no fix/no fee. The repairer goes home a little bit poorer that day, and that's how it should be. The repairer's labour rate is either competitive or the customers go elsewhere.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:44:25 pm
content: NO some of them will charge a displacement trip fee "normally 1 hour minimum", here in my country ... even if a repair has not been made nor being contracted,even for a 10-15 min eye check ...master electrician, construction workers in some domainstow truckingcar / truck garages, electric appliances technicians ... and many others,they wont come if you don't agree to pay the "displacement"

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:48:03 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on July 07, 2024, 04:35:53 pmThis is what is known as "argument by non sequiteur"! 😄Nobody, ever, anywhere in this thread has said your (or other's) skills have no value.Quote from: Gyro on July 07, 2024, 04:35:53 pmTotally agree. It is remarkable how few contributors to this thread embraced that at the beginning, or expressed it so clearly.However there is still the issue with the whole "charging by the hour" model, which has a fundamental shortcoming. I'll quote what I wrote earlier:"The problem with charging by the hour is that it looks to the customer like an open-ended money-making racket. The key issue here is that the risk is all on the customer, not shared between the two of you. You can sit back and take your time, or you can work quickly, secure in the knowledge that you will take home $200 for every hour spent. Even hours spent reading the newspaper. The customer has no such security - they know you can charge whatever you like (they have no idea how long it really took you).That's why, from the customer's point of view, a firm quotation with no fix/no fee is the only fair billing model."I am serious about this. If you cannot give the customer a pretty solid indication of how much they'll be charged at the end, then they are entering a pretty scary situation, one in which you have all the power (because you decide how many hours it took) and they have none (because you've got their product in your possession).That's why I favour quoting the customer a "price plus caveats". By that I mean:1/ "The charge will be between these two values, and if I can't fix it there'll be no charge."2/ "The charge will be between these two values whether or not I fix it."3/ "I charge $50 to evaluate the problem, which you must pay up front and is non-refundable. I will then give you a quote which you can accept or not. If you choose to proceed and it turns out I cannot do the repair, there will be no further charge. If I discover that more work is required than I quoted for, I will contact you, and you can decide either to proceed or have the product back unrepaired, at no further charge beyond the initial evaluation fee.".....blah blah, and endless variants on that theme. To be honest, I don't think option 2/ would be acceptable to many customers because it is an open-ended money-maker, but I fear it is often all they are offered. Certainly by car workshops!There are endless detailed variants on 3/, but I like the basic idea because the repairer never takes on a job unevaluated; and the customer never has to enter an open-ended, unlimited cost contract. Obviously it isn't possible to eliminate risk entirely for the reasons we have explored in detail in this thread.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 04:49:59 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on July 07, 2024, 04:44:25 pmAnd that is totally unacceptable. Morally, they MUST make it clear up front what they will do and what they will charge.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 05:17:45 pm
content: oh but they do here ....morallyman ..... as my last comment herethey don't give a damn, why, because clients, where not sure, tried many people at the same time trying to get a better deal or prices etc ...at some point they had enough being trolled too ... and began to charge, client(s) are not perfect too BTWIM 53 i have seen so much things change over the years, things where reliable in the past, you could get 15years out of servicenow 5 years pfffffffffff dont make me laugh, some reputable brands after 1 year dump their partsand some even use covid as pretext IE: no more parts, bad parts availability the list goes on and on .... buy new buy new .... consume mooooore that's the keyword here in Canadamuch has to be learn here .... even in some usa countries too

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 05:43:28 pm
content: Totally agree that clients aren't perfect by any means. In the world of clock and watch repairs it is quite common for a repair to cost more than the commercial value of the product, because many clocks and watches have a strong sentimental value. One thing that sometimes happens is that the customer realises they don't miss their clock very much after all, so they just never come back and pay. The repairer is left with a clock they've just spent four hours on and which might fetch a hundred bucks on eBay if they are lucky.Perhaps you could campaign to introduce better business practices in your country.😄

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 05:48:55 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 07, 2024, 05:43:28 pmAnother nasty little trick the clients do: they will claim that some sort of pre-existing damage wasn't there when they dropped the clock off. I don't know if they genuinely believe it or just fancy getting some money back The only solution is to photograph the item I detail while they are watching, with your camera set to overlay the date and time on each picture.Anyway, drifting off topic a bit!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 05:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on June 30, 2024, 10:35:07 pmIf only the repair was an item in the spare catalogue......

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 05:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 07, 2024, 05:43:28 pmLouis Rossmann is already doing that. It's called "Right to Repair". Unfortunately US politicians on both sides are in the pockets of Big Business, so any legislation is routinely undermined. In fact, you can see the vast cultural difference between the EU and USA just in the levels of the fines handed down against big players such as Apple and Google. EU fines target the revenue of these companies, whereas FTC fines are written off as minor annoyances.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 08:36:52 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on July 07, 2024, 04:34:01 pmIf you don't like it, don't contribute. Then if no-one does it will die a death on its own. Problem solved.What you mean is the discussion - on topic, off topic, whatever it is or wherever it goes - is not toyourliking. Clearly, other users are participating for whatever reasons of their own. The solution: just ignore it. Problem solved.QuoteSee - the problem is thatyourview hasn't been accepted in its entirety by everyone, and that's why you are peeved. It it was 7 pages of agreeing with you you'd think very differently!There are threads on this board that I don't look at once I've seen what they are and where they will go. I don't miss them. I don't demand they're locked because they're too dumb for me to follow.Long threads are not themselves an issue. Looke at TEA. The issue is simply whatyouget out of it, not what other people do. Just ignore the thread. Please.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 08:45:22 pm
content: QuoteMaybe they do, but it is very similar to when I take my car to be serviced: when I get it back, perhaps a day or week later something goes wrong. Did they break it so I'd have to go back to them? It seems very coincidental, and the temptation is to think it is something they did.Actually, once itwasthem (a breather not put back right, and it took me several weeks to realise the issue was real and take it back). But I try not to think badly of them now, even though another time they didn't reset the service light and I had to take it back for that.And indeed, last time there was an engine light fault. Amazingly it started the evening before I was to take the car in for a service, so just a day different and I'd have automatically thought they'd done something when I got it back and it started showing the fault.Anyway, I mention this just to say that I am sure that often the client is not doing it deliberately or as a trick, but as a normal human reaction to coincidence. Of course, there will be some that are actual toerags, but I think they would be outliers.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 09:20:17 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 07, 2024, 05:43:28 pmThis can happen in other repair industries too, including electronics and is why I charge an upfront fee. It makes the customer think more clearly about the risk of a non repair and it also provides a minimum return for my time (and possibly parts) if they never collect it. If it's just you working from home such losses are not as bad (I worked from home originally), but if you're paying commercial rent and have employees the losses bite harder.I would estimate that even after filtering out the obvious "not worth looking at" jobs (before booking in), I end up with one item per week on average that doesn't end up repaired. Sometimes it's because it's just not possible, but most times it would be because the total repair bill would be too high. In maybe 75% of those cases the customer does not want the item back so it goes onto a shelf in the "graveyard" area of the workshop or maybe straight to the e-waste pallet if I don't think there's any usable parts in it.Several times I have been able to repair a customer's item with a (otherwise unobtainable or expensive) part that came from a written off unit. Customers who leave their dead item are actually happy that it could help someone else. Occasionally I'll have someone (maybe not even an existing customer) drop in with an item and ask if I want it for parts. Most times I accept it as even if I don't need anything from it I'd rather put it in e-waste than have them put it into general waste (the ground).

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:00:40 am
content: I think that it highly depends on what things you are repairing.If you are repairing the same items day in day out, then no repair no fee is generally reasonable as the difficult ones become a learning exercise that will benefit you in the future of being able to identify the problem quickly.However, if you are repairing all kinds of oddball stuff, then there needs to be an upfront fee or at least a good understanding that they will pay something even if it is not repaired, but not as much as if it were repaired.For me to just give my time to random strangers for free, it doesn't work well. I have enough things to do without doing pointless jobs.Do random strangers after having me work on their gear mow the grass, do some gardening, fix my car, paint the house just as some extra freebies for me?NO! Its a two way street right? If you want something for nothing, so do I!That being said, if you are newer to electronic repair and your success rate is not that good, then it is probably a good thing to do no fix no fee until you are more competent and confident in your work. Then after you have gained good experience and now have a much higher success rate, then you are more entitled to ask for something for your time as if you have not been able to repair it, you may have sunk a lot of extra time into it already.Most of my work is fixed fee, but I work on niche products that I know inside out. However when someone presents an unknown device you have to set some limits as to how much time you are willing to spend on it and let the customer know.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:45:38 am
content: Agreed. Is it a business or a charity? The proposed formula is neither a busniess nor a charity. Treasure your skill, and also treasure the good meaning. Charge as high as your skill can fetch, that is a respect to your skill and time. And when meeting clients from charitable organisations needing your repair and skill go much further than no-fix-no-fee. That is what I think can make a fairer society.Most charitable organisations we met would like us to charge as normal and be profitable, so to survive and keep playing our useful role, and be a donor if we think they are also playing their useful roles.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 02:49:40 am
content: I'm an electronics technician in my day job, but I don't do work for members of the public so costings aren't really a thing like they would be when you're charging a job out.Previously I've made a bit of beer money doing repairs for people. These have just been simple things like replacing a USB socket or repairing a cable or something like that. Not really electronics, more mechanical really. These were all done on a fixed price basis with no fix no fee.This was simplest for everyone concerned, there was no real diagnostics involved on my part, I knew what I'd need to supply as far as parts, and they knew what they'd be up for in regards to costs to decide if it was worth repairing or not.I certainly wouldn't take on a job involving complex diagnostics on a fixed price basis.It's been quite a while since I did paid repairs for people, but I do volunteer at a repair cafe doing basic repairs. From my experience you can get upset/disappointed customers even when it's a free service to help people. We are very specific in that we don't provide parts and those who seek our help need to source/bring their own. Whilst can often fix things by simply cleaning a contact or a bit of soldering sometimes a faulty item needs parts. Luckily in Australia retailers like Jaycar are still an option to pop into and buy a new connector or a switch or a capacitor yet we've had people get quite upset that we don't just have all of these things here to give them for free and that they need to be the one to go for a short drive and get the parts needed.Luckily the majority of people who visit are not like this and are appreciative of the principle of the repair cafe in that a volunteer will sit with you and help you fix your item. Most things that we fix would not be economical to take in to be repaired and would simply be e-waste if not fixed by us.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 06:24:08 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on July 08, 2024, 02:45:38 amNo fix / no fee doesn't turn a business into a charity. The proposed formula is - according to our contributors - already used by some successful businesses.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 06:28:46 am
content: Quote from: SmallCog on July 08, 2024, 02:49:40 amNo, neither would I. In this situation, there needs to be some way of giving the customer an estimate so they can decide whether to proceed or not.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 07:46:35 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 08, 2024, 06:28:46 amAnd that way already exists. The customer pays for the diagnosis and an estimate based on the facts. Without looking at most items, any estimate you give is more like a guess instead of a close estimate or a firm quote.I had a customer ring today about his favourite radio / cassette from the 80s'. He wanted to know how much to fix the cassette section. I advised that it was not possible to know or even give a close estimate without starting the job which would have seen him pay an upfront fee. He did not want to pay anything for an unknown outcome, so I gave him a pure wild guess to the likely cost and chance of success. Suddenly the favourite item from his youth was not worth spending anything on and he declined to bring it in. I don't want to be spending all day on the phone dishing out guesses, so I try and keep the calls short and to the point and will err on the high side for those guesses. I'd rather less customers who are already on the fence about a repair.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 08:50:54 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 08, 2024, 06:24:08 amI can't see how that is different from providing your skills for nothing (my previous point). However it is a positive disincentive from doing any more that taking the back off, looking for easy fix bulged electrolytics and then slapping it back on again if you don't see any. Detailed fault-finding takes time, and if you're eventually going to find something not economically repairable then you get paid nothing. No incentive to start, which is bad for repairerand customer.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 12:28:44 pm
content: QuoteConsider the alternative where he'd either paid up-front or agreed to whatever it costs in the end, and then discovering the actual cost. He may well have thought that had he known beforehand how much it would be, he'd never have considered it. So that's a customer out of pocket an unhappy.Perhaps a midway solution would be to agree an upfront (not necessarily paid upfront) cost to investigate (and potentially fix), and if it's looking to go over then the customer is advised and they can either accept a new estimate or not.ISTM that paying per hour is effectively making the repairer an employee in all but name, and yet not having any say on the matter. Paying an agreed fee (even if that turns out to require adjustment) is paying for the result rather than the journey getting there.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 12:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on July 08, 2024, 08:50:54 amYou obviously haven't read the thread. We've done this to death already. The customer doesn't want to buy your skills, they want to buy a repair. That dichotomy - you want to sell your labour, the customer wants to buy thefruitsof your labour, is what this entire thread is about.Quote from: Gyro on July 08, 2024, 08:50:54 amAgain, we've done this already. There should never be an open-ended money tree whereby the customer faces an extortionate bill because it took you two days to fix the item. The customer takes all the risk, you take none. Following your business model, it is actually in your interest to take as long as possible over the job, and that isn't fair on the customer. Also, what if it takes two days because you're not as smart as you think you are? The less competent you are, the more the customer pays!The whole point of this lengthy debate is to find a model which is fair to the repairerandthe customer. And that means sharing the risk equally, as well as the reward.Anyway, done to death. Every detail has been forensically dissected and examined in the previous messages. See above.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 12:49:57 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 08, 2024, 12:28:44 pmExactly.Quote from: PlainName on July 08, 2024, 12:28:44 pmExactly.

author: Runco990
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 06:57:37 pm
content: Well, Steve.... I would never want you as a customer, as it sounds like you'd never be happy with my work.Having said that: I take a one hour minimum diagnostic. Period. I pre-qualify all my customers on the phone, and even talked some out of fixing their unit, as it was just not worth it for either of us.If I don't work on something, like for example Nakamichi Decks, I refer the customer to someone who DOES. I don't stock NAK parts and feel a specialist is better for those jobs.Then an estimate. Which is exactly that. An ESTIMATE.If work is approved and performed and I am successful, I expect to be paid.If I fail, I do not charge for the "work", but my 1 hour minimum stands. I very, very rarely fail. Yes, I am good at what I do, but sometimes things don't work out due to some part no longer available. Anywhere.SOME jobs get out of hand, but in my case I love restoring reel to reel decks, so at some point I just flat rate the job. I want to fix the machine and the customer to be happy AND come back with other work.I NEVER advertise. I work from home. So my reputation on the internet was truly earned and I am grateful to have it. It's ALL word of mouth, so there is ZERO incentive for me to cheat anyone. In fact, I don't need to do this at ALL, so you can go piss up a rope for all I care.... I do this because I like it, and in the end it pays for the food... which sure is expensive these days.In the end, if you don't like it, learn to do it yourself. We are all retiring soon and you can complain to someone else. 2 years for me.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 07:13:27 pm
content: Quote from: Runco990 on July 08, 2024, 06:57:37 pmThen you are in the enviable position of being able to afford not to accept a minimum payment for that tiny fraction of jobs that you don't manage to complete.

author: Runco990
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 07:18:31 pm
content: I am. But I pick what I work on. I do not work on just anything.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 07:58:42 pm
content: Quote from: Runco990 on July 08, 2024, 06:57:37 pmWhy on earth would you not want me for a customer? Perhaps you haven't read the thread, but what you describe is pretty much exactly what I've been advocating!😀

author: Runco990
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 08:14:09 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 08, 2024, 07:58:42 pmYou know I can only do this because it's basically my HOBBY. If I had a ton of bills and had to pay for a shop, I'd find something else to do.Now if you could convince politicians and CEO's to actually produce ANYTHING for their paychecks..... THERE I'm on your side. These people keep failing upwards and become millionaires.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2024, 09:11:26 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 08, 2024, 12:28:44 pmI don't just repair an item at any cost and present a bill to the customer at the end. Likely costs and limits are discussed at booking in time. The customer being out of pocket in the case of an unrepaired item is not my problem.Quote from: PlainName on July 08, 2024, 12:28:44 pmI do charge an upfront fee. It covers the first hour of labour. Occasionally I will book something in for half the amount (which covers 30 mins of labour) if I suspect that I can diagnose it accurately in less time. As I've said before, not charging the fee upfront leads to losses due to customers who fail to collect the item.Quote from: PlainName on July 08, 2024, 12:28:44 pmIn a lot of (most ?) service industries, a "result" is not the same as a completed repair. It's a service performed. Would you complain about the tech who comes out, diagnoses your dishwasher / oven / washing machine / fridge, can't repair it (due to cost / parts) but still charges you for their time?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 12:29:30 am
content: Just to explore a corner of this issue which hasn't been totally beaten to death.It has been stated that the repairer has no right to an income and is therefor unjustified in charging anything for unsuccessful repairs.I totally agree with the statement that the repairer has no right to an income. Of course I am thoroughly embedded in a self sufficient mindset. Someone from a place that was more egalitarian and society minded might not agree so completely.But there is another consequence of my point of view. The customer has no right for a repair business to exist. If repairers find that they can't earn a living they must choose some other occupation and the customer is left with no alternative but replacement. While several business models have been proposed none of them (including per hour fee with no guarantee of repair) assure that repairers exist. If customers desire such a service to exist they may be required to exhibit some flexibility in their desires.An analogy in my life. I much prefer a brick and mortar store where I can examine a product before deciding to purchase, benefit from the expertise of the shop owner, and having made the decision can immediately satisfy my desire for the product. Unfortunately the economics of a brick and mortar store competing with on line retailers has eliminated a large number of them. Most of the survivors do so through a hybrid business model where the on line portion of their business allows the physical presence to remain open. And the geographic density of those survivors is much lower meaning I have lost access to a great many products in my preferred format. I have had to adapt, regardless of my preferences. I have also been forced to admit that on line retailers have advantages, even for me.I fundamentally don't think this is a fairness or morality issue, just a consequence of economic activity.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 01:14:19 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 09, 2024, 12:29:30 amExactly; in itself, it's not inherently unfair or immoral at all.Otherwise, where would it end. Taken to an extreme, it could be considered immoral to give up, even if you don't charge for the repair. Would it be more moral to not stop working till the end of time, and then charge a fixed fee because that was what was promised? Wouldn't that be immoral for the customer to then accept? Would it be immoral for the engineer to continue working knowing that it might make the customer's behavior become immoral.Fortunately, the solution is simple. One can't force people to fix their hi-fi, or force any kind of work, that's a principle now entrenched almost everywhere since abolition of slavery. The solution is to use a contract, and morals have got nothing to do with them (granted terms must not be  unfair, which is a completely different thing, often related to negligence and so on); if the contract is broken then there is simply an exchange of money (in either direction) as defined in the contract.And as mentioned by people, the pricing model for the repair is a completely different thing.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 02:58:00 pm
content: This is an interesting thread which discusses the pros and cons of free quotes and no fix, no fee."Business Strategy.. $0 fees if nothing recovered":https://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?p=311514#p311514Quote

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 06:53:23 pm
content: How much is practical top of billable hours?I'd say 50% is pretty high for micro company.So 20 hours a week for a salary worker.Once a smoker had more breaks than work hours.But productivity was still better than of some constantly working workers.Here direct cost of a work hour is roughly 185% of bto salary.10.5 months of work for 12.5 months of salary+25% social security and pension+25% VATHere employer deducts income tax.It's counted as payed even if not actually payed.That 0.5 months of salary is a relic from different era.Back then it was return from vacation payment.Now return part is dropped and current workers take it as granted.Pension is mandatory and paid to special private insurance company.For that company it's also against the law to go under.So its profits are guaranteed.Salary of Sunday can be 300%, pretty high if production is the same as Monday.No wonder some employers would like to turn a new page.Obviously that 300% of Sunday doesn't include every day open retail shops.And yes, being a salary worker is a bit different than being an entrepreneur.