Siglent SDS1202X-E XY Mode Update Rate - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: alreadystarted
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 06:39:53 am
content: I have a new Siglent SDS 1202X-E, and I've noticed that the update rate in XY mode is very slow. Something like 500ms. This seems odd to me since the normal 2 waveform update rate is relatively fast and smooth, like ~50ms if I had to guess.Has anyone figured out a way to speed up XY mode on this scope? I've tried different mem depth and time bases with no change. Is it normal for digital scopes to have a slow XY mode? I'm a little spoiled by analog "frame rate" on my old scope:/

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 06:50:19 am
content: Digital oscilloscopes definitely don't have the XY mode refresh rate of analog oscilloscopes, but that's pretty slow even by digital oscilloscope standards.Your video makes me think Siglent does their plotting all at once instead of point-by-point like we do on the Keysight scopes, so that would explain the "strobing"/frame-like display.There's a reason you see Doom run through analog scopes and not digital scopes...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 07:43:29 am
content: Yes, the SDS1202X-E XY mode could be very much better than it currently is.Why, well because its big brother SDS1*04X-E does XY mode much much better with no strobing at all when settings are best.Both scopes show some XY result dependency re memory depth, with less better.All of which has me wondering if the firmware in the 4 channel X-E, although closely based on the 2 channel model, is maybe more advanced in the pre-release SDS1104X-E I have here.I can say improvements I've asked for will affect both 2 & 4 Ch models so maybe soon Siglent will closer align firmware versions so that similar XY performance is in both models.The 4 ch X-E can do some more tricks in XY mode but more about them at release.The 4 ch model is only a couple of weeks away so it's possible there'll be some more SDS1202X-E improvements soon. I'll ask next week.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 08:08:11 am
content: I was looking at these scopes yesterday on the Trio site down here where they are throwing in the serial decode option for free but that's another story, anyway if the SDS 1#04X-E is going to be an altogether different machine to the SDS 1#02X-E then why the hell are they still using a similar model number, this only serves to confuse potential purchasers and from what I have seen generally ends up a lucky dip with firmware upgades and bricked equipment, this practice needs to stop in my view.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 08:18:36 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 04, 2017, 08:08:11 amCurrent SDS2000X 2 and 4 ch models share the same FWand as the SDS1*0*X-E 2 and 4 ch models are another series I strongly suspect they will have common firmware too.Siglent products in the same series all have the same firmware, there's no differentiation between models in a series.However SDS1202X-E and SDS1*04X-E models have many different HW & SW features so require different firmware.To further support this, when the 4 ch X-E is released it will share the same SDS1000X-E Siglent webpage as the SDS1202X-E just as it does currently on the all Chinese Siglent website.BTW Muttley, Decode is not an option in the X-E, it's part of the UI that comes with the scope...at no charge.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 08:45:19 am
content: Thanks, a second look revealed that they are throwing in the serial decode on the SDS 1102X and it is already incorporated on the SDS 1202X-E,, I will be over on the Rigol site if anybody needs me.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 09:06:10 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 04, 2017, 08:45:19 amSort of...but Siglent offered Decode free in SDS1000X models well before the SDS1202X-E was released.Chicken or egg first, it doesn't matter, what does is that most others brands charge for it.

author: alreadystarted
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 04:05:26 pm
content: Daniel, tautech thanks for your comments.tautech perhaps you can share a demo of the XY mode on the 4X-E when the embargo lifts?And Daniel:I was pretty excited to hear Agilent/Keysight had a $500 2-chan scope and would have preferred your brand, but discovering the unlocked versions were $900 (and $1100 with sig gen) + $150 for serial decode was a big disappointment. Even if it's true I don't really need the extra bandwidth, it just feels crappy to get the crippled model, and I can really use the UART decoding. If it had been $700 flat for the 100MHz model with nothing locked I may have chosen otherwise. That's not criticism, just feedback. I'm sure your scopes are worth the price.For a casual like me looking for a low end scope with maximum value (without "breaking the seal" as it were with the Rigol DS1054Z), the Siglent is a real bargain. And it certainly does work, even if there are some shortcomings andworkaroundsrequired.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 06:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: alreadystarted on November 04, 2017, 04:05:26 pmNot so much an embargo but a NDA as a beta tester. Some info is already online but what's not we can't share.Dave is likely to do the first video on the 4 ch X-E as he's already stated he's got one coming.He's been keeping an eye on X-E threads so most likely he won't miss this one and check out the XY mode.He should find the 'trick' it can do if he spends a little time with XY'ing.Anyways, thanks for this thread, it helps to add more weight on Siglent for things we want improved.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2017, 07:41:05 pm
content: so just how fast is the "frame-rate" on your 4channel beta model?

author: etron
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 12:43:48 am
content: Just to add another voice hoping for a better XY mode implementation. As it stands it's certainly nowhere up to an acceptable level for a 2017 scope, even entry level (in fact, are there any bench DSO's with a slower XY mode?).BTW, simple math also has a surprisingly slow update rate (~2fps). I'm bothered less by this but again it's not up to its peers in this category.I'm satisfied with the scope overall, but really hope these items are addressed. It's encouraging to hear that the 4-channel X-E is performing better.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 08:03:02 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on November 04, 2017, 06:50:19 amYes. Siglent approach is very different.Example in this attached image.Both channels use 500MSa/s and both channel acquisition length is 350000 samples.All mesurements can fully use also in XY mode. Measurements use full acquisition resolution and length (no decimation).Signals: X 1MHz sine. Y 999999.994Hz pulse width100ns-rise12ns-fall40ns.Siglent can measure example in this image true Y channel rise time 12ns, fall time 40ns and pulse width 100ns. X channel signal in this image is 1MHz sine wave so its risetime is what it is but also if X have fast pulse it can measure it with full resolution.Also afaik Siglent do not decimate for display memory. All samples mapped.If Siglent do simple sequential X,Y sample and plot (as Keysight do), of course it can do XY mode draw very fast.Also Siglent trigger system (what is pure full digital side trigger system) works fully in XY mode, example (in this image):I want set trigger so that it trigs only if fall slope in Y signal is is faster than 15ns/VPersist is used in this example image for show this slow phase shift between X and Y signals.Perhaps (a wish for Santa Claus) Siglent can implement two kind of XY modes. With full features full length trace dataand then fast XY modejust as simple point to point X-Y plotting.Of course also can ask, what are real needs for digital oscilloscope XY mode, exept that it is fun.@Keysight DanielBogdanoff:Can you do same measurements and trigger settings with Keysight using XY mode? Due to fact that Keysight is doing just simplest method (but fastest) point to point X-Y plotting I think you can not.If it do any measurements, I believe it use only very rough measurements just from display map.Perhaps even using YT mode it is doing measurements only from memory map or highly reduced data instead of full resolution full data acquisition length.How it is?

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 12:38:14 pm
content: Arent there some "auto" memory settings? In general there there are three use-cases: manual (powerusers), fast (for visual only), max (for best measurements).

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 02:52:05 am
content: A quick question or 2 for anyone with the SDS1202X-E and latest firmware (1.3.13R1?): Has the update rate in XY mode been improved in the newer firmwares? If so, how well does it compare to the 1204X-E?Yes, I'm aware XY mode isn't a DSO strong point & is very dependent on memory depth etc, but I've played with it on a 1204X-E and that model seems to be fast enough for my purposes. If it helps to know, I'm considering the 1202X-E to replace my current analogue Tek for both general use & specifically AM/FM IF alignment/sweeps, so typical settings for the latter would be suitable for capturing up to 1Mhz/10.7MHz or so. (I know there's other ways, but I'm kind of used to using XY mode for that.)(Necro'ing this thread rather than asking in one of the others because I'm specifically interested in XY mode.)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 04:55:54 am
content: This is one I did following your PM at ~10 KHz. FW 1.3.17R1, not 1.3.13 as I thought.No trouble to do another at your frequencies of interest.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 06:05:51 am
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on November 04, 2017, 06:50:19 ami agree, but rigol model like DS1054Z can do decent 15-30 fps refresh rate... another reason to buy rigol

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 07:09:49 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 05, 2018, 06:05:51 amOr Siglent (SDS1004X-E models) what have also (using ...25R2 FW) quite fast XY and it is good to also know that with full acquisition resolution measurements because it is not just X,Y plotter method XY display. wfm/s speed is still under tests but it is - fast (so fast that I really need do further tests before tell it for avoid bullshit info). I have seen some things what looks like it can do up to over 50kwfm/s in XY mode but as told, this need further tests and cross check with different test methods)wfm/s acquisition speed (also in XY mode) is other and TFT refresh is other thing of course because this is DPO. Naturally wfm/s speed depends also memory length-timebase setting. It have also some intensity gradation. And of course also with all trigger functions. Even waveform history buffer works but it can not change to 2 channel Yt display. History need look using XY display. But both channels raw ADC data data is there for all measurements. Just "bit" more what Rigol DS1kZ can...But of course also with some more price. Performance is not free lounge.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 02:50:40 pm
content: Small add.Here two images.Other with AM (noise) mod and other without. Just for somehow imagine intensity grad. (not at all best example)Also need note that live image looks bit more smooth than still image. (human eye/brain effect)IN XY mode it can still also push these single XY´s to wfm history buffer.It is easy to see how many there is and looking time stamps how much time it take and also there is interval. Siglent do not directly plot XY. It capture both traces and then construct XY display from these. But after this process this product is pushed to wfm history buffer fifo.Both traces are capturted using current memory length in use and using current samplerate.This make possible all automatic measurements. Including of course freq, rise time etc... just all.Also Trigger functions available in XY mode.With this settings in images it have around 8400wfm/s.Of course this is not display refresh speed. It is roughly 25frame/s (same as in all modes)As in normal Yt mode all captures what are made in one TFT perioare overlaid in this TFT frame and produced intensity gradation.As in Yt mode wfm/s speed depends many settings.Also tested using 100ns and 500MSa current memory length is 700pts and this can reach bit over 60kwfm/s speed if measurements also off. Tested using 6MHz signals. Persist and cursors do not affect.Wit this setup max history buffer is max 29140 XY last products. Of course all these individual XY's can look separately or play in history buffer.No image, looks around as these others.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 09:19:54 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 04, 2017, 08:18:36 amtautech,From my analyses this is not correct!The 1002X-E uses FW forprod_id = 13000and 1004X-E uses FW withprod_id = 13501.So,they are different. You won't be able to cross flash them because of the prod_ID.There has been no update of the 1002X-E since SDS1002X-E_5.1.3.17R1.ADS which was packed inJan 27th, 2018.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/?action=dlattach;attach=515678

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2018, 09:24:23 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on September 05, 2018, 09:19:54 pmYes, we now know that.

author: S.Asenov
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 01:55:03 pm
content: How is the update rate in XY mode with the latest firmware? Is it any better?

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 04:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: S.Asenov on October 02, 2019, 01:55:03 pmDo you mean faster than the first video? If so, yes it's much faster than that. If you mean tautech's reply #14, that seems about how fast it is now.

author: GerryR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 05:33:24 pm
content: If you want to see really sloooow:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/x-y-mode-rigol-ds1102d/

author: S.Asenov
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 09:26:08 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on October 02, 2019, 04:43:37 pmThank you for the info.