White LED dimly lights by touching it - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2024, 08:54:46 pm
content: My son breadboarded a circuit that uses a white LED and is powered by a bench supply that internally uses a switcher. He came running to me to ask why the LED remains dimly light even after releasing a button he hooked up to control the LED. While demonstrating it to me, and failing to get it to malfunction the way he described, I discovered it was because sometimes he'd touch one of the LED leads, which would make it light up very dimly. Even with one of the power connections from the power supply disconnected, it would still do it.I thought this was interesting, but not completely unexpected. We all know what happens when you touch the input of an audio amp, scope, or a logic probe (remember those?). So clearly there's some voltage there. I got out the current meter and held one probe while touching the other to the LED and saw around 800nA on AC mode. Sidenote: wow aren't modern LEDs efficient!!I've never give this phenomenon much thought in all my decades of tinkering, but what is actually going on here? First I propose there's some leakage between the power supply output and one or more of the AC conductors, although this still occurs to a lesser extent when the supply's hard power switch is off, thus breaking the hot/line. But are we picking up AC leakage or fields and returning to earth through the power cord? This was in his shag carpet bedroom so I'd assume that's not very conductive.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2024, 09:56:57 pm
content: This is capacitive coupling of the mains though the body. The current path is hard to predict but if it remains connected to the outlet, the earth terminal is not going to be interrupted by the power switch.And yes, LEDs are supper efficient. On my boards I run them at single digit uA to not get blinded by simple status LEDs.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2024, 10:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 16, 2024, 09:56:57 pmI get the earth always remains connected, as it should be. Capacitive coupling makes sense, but from where? I'm 3 feet from the walls, unless there's a cable under the floor which is quite possible since it's on the 2nd floor. Or maybe this much current can be capacitively coupled from feet away? I don't recall the capacitance formula but I assume distance is squared or cubed.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2024, 10:28:13 pm
content: From the environment. Your body is one big capacitor plate.This is the same thing you see on the scope when you touch the probe tip without touching anything else. I just tried and simply sitting in front of a computer, I get a sine with ~5vpp amplitude. It is not going to deliver enough current, but it can deliver a few uA.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 12:40:38 am
content: The power levels involved are extremely low. Even RF from cellphones is enough to power LEDs "passively" with only a suitable antenna connected."What is the reverse recovery time of an LED" is not something I've given much thought to either...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 10:35:39 am
content: If the bench power supply is a Class II without earth (uncommon for lab supplies, but perhaps possible for a low power cheap supply) then the output will float at around 60Vac relative to earth (assuming 120Vac mains). This is perfectly safe for humans as the current is very low but if you provide a path to earth then you will be able to get ~0.5mA to flow through an LED, which will easily make it illuminate. Class II designs are common with lower power switchmode power supplies, usually sub 100W, though it is uncommon for lab power supplies to not use an earth as usually an earth terminal is provided on the front of the unit.I have seen a similar phenomenon when I used my earthed soldering iron on a board that I had accidentally left connected to the mains via a Class II power supply - LEDs on the board would glow slightly as a path to ground was created. I suppose it could damage sensitive electronics so I wouldn't recommend doing that on anything important.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 04:49:14 am
content: We are living in a sea of EM energy. You say you are a few feet from the walls. But the wavelength of 60 Hertz radiation is about 5,000 km. In short it would be difficult, dare I say impossible to find a spot on the surface of the earth where you are not in the near field of AC power lines. And that's just the AC power lines. There are countless RF sources no matter where you go. Hook an antenna to a spectrum analyzer and look at just how crowded the RF spectrum really is. Any and all of those RF sources can be a source of energy.Years ago, in my teenage years I built a crystal radio that incorporated an amplifier that used free power. It had two detection circuits, one tuned to the AM station you wanted to listen to and the other tuned to the strongest AM station in the area. The RF output of that second circuit was rectified and smoothed/filtered by a capacitor: in other words, it became a DC source, a DC power supply. That DC was used to power a single transistor amplifier which increased the Voltage level of the station you wished to hear. Free power from one AM station was used to amplify the signal of a second AM station to where it could be heard on headphones. And IT WORKED!I am not at all surprised that a finger can dimly light an LED. Not the least bit.Quote from: jrmymllr on September 16, 2024, 10:13:02 pm

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 07:08:03 am
content: Yes, it's capacitive coupling, probably from the mains. I can get a high efficiency LED to light by holding one lead and touching an earthed object in my house, such as a radiator or tap.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 07:35:50 am
content: Yes, they light up by touching only one terminal because of capacitive coupling. White LEDs will start to light up at very small currents.However, I'll avoid lighting the LEDs by touching them, because that also applies hundreds of volts when the LEDs become reversed polarized. Most white LEDs can only withstand no more than 5V or so when reversed polarized, so applying hundreds of volts in an unpredictable way is bad. This may damage the LEDs, or at least shorten their lifespan.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 05:41:27 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on September 25, 2024, 07:35:50 amNot to mention ESD. Definitely not an ESD safe environment. But he's 9 and has an entire bag of LEDs to play with so it's worth it.