Mass failure of on board chargers of EV's produced by Stellantis group. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 10:40:30 am
content: I've recently come over this video right here exposing a widespread problem with on board chargers produced by MAHLE for Stellantis.Although it's a pretty good watch, it seems to go more into the politics and less into the technical details. The politics are also very interesting and feels like a class action lawsuit might be brewing up, but, not being an owner of these EV's, i am less interested in it.The guy didn't link his sources, but the one he relied heavily upon was this post right here by EVClinic:https://evclinic.eu/2024/10/30/if-you-drive-a-stellantis-vehicle-may-god-help-you-part-1/Here they show the insides of the on board charger and show one with a rather spectacular failure. What caught my eye, though, was this picture here:Normally when i see these modules, they're made to cram more silicon (in the form of bare dies) into a smaller footprint. Since semiconductor packages take up more space than the raw die inside them, it sometimes makes sense to build a module with just the die itself.In this case the module is built with regular semicondutors in what looks like a D2PAK-8 package. Then bond wires shoot out in every direction to connect the pins of the module to the electronics within. It confuses me why they didn't build it all on an aluminum or copper composite PCB. Or perhaps come up with a different dolution altogether. I don't really see the advantage of building a module this way unless they already had the production line set up and building this was merely a change of production parameters and components.I like tinkering and reverse engineering, so the technical aspect of this failure is what interests me the most. I've already reverse engineered an ESAB PM1 inverter module and built a replacement using off the shelf semiconductors and made it all fit into the same footprint as the original (the post can be found on my blog). So it peaks my interest if something similar can be done in this case as well. Perhaps not so much a repair as maybe an upgrade even.But getting back to the failure mode, it seems that in the EVClinic article they tore down only three units and were only able to find the failure in one of them. Seems like they don't go much into detail about the diagnosis of the failure, so perhaps they don't dig that deep. Hopefully more teardowns come up over time from other sources and more details come into light.Until then we might be left to only speculate, which is why i started this thread. I'm interested in what the failure mode might be and what are your guy's opinion on it. I work in repair of similar tech and i know that MOSFETs in the D2PAK package can break off at the solder interface on the tab due to thermal cycling. It's actually a very common failure mode in ZAPI AC-1 motor drives. In two of the three failed units, that were mentioned in the EVClinic article, the failure was not obvious and i know for a fact that failures in the primary side of inverters are almost always quite spectacular, so i'm left wondering it's perhaps a failure on the secondary side of the inverter. For example some CEA welders are prone to secondary rectifier failure and will function perfectly fine until any welding current is requested. At that point the welding inverter fires up and starts dumping current into the shorted diodes on the secondary. But the secondary is split and diodes short only on one side, so that throws the transformer out of balance and causes the core to saturate, resulting in an overcurrent error code. In the end the failure is not obvious and does require prior experience to pinpoint without a full failure analysis.I wonder if something similar might be happening here as well. After all, big inverters are mostly all the same. EVClinic also mentions broken solder joints, so that could also be the case. Vehicles do vibrate alot and for extended periods of time, so it would make sense that something would come loose. Reports mention that the failure of the on board charger can come quite gradually, sometimes it would drop the charging current, and other times it might start cycling between charging and not charging. This does sound like it might be more consistent with a bad connection, rather than a failed semiconductor. Perhaps some thermal expansion is coming into play but the pictures i've found don't really show enough detail to be sure.But one thing's for sure is that there will be plenty MAHLE made on board chargers flooding the e-waste centers. The pictures with containers full of these broken chargers are quite impressive. I wish i could get my hands on one or two to tear apart.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 10:52:56 am
content: Stellantis is made up of Fiat, Chrysler, and Peugeot et. al.Is anyone really that surprised?Their brands aren't exactly renowned for quality in the last 15-20 years.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 01:18:14 pm
content: I saw a different video discussing a failed charging module in, I think, aCitroenRenault EV car. The module itself is available to purchase as a spare, but it is buried so deep within the motor assembly that you have to basically tear down the whole motor out of the car to get at the module and then remove lots of high voltage cables to actually remove the module. It is a nightmare task that would cost a fortune in garage labour. The maker of the video questioned why a module that is under stress and a potential failure point would be buried so deeply in the motor assembly instead of being exterior to the motor, like the alternator is on a ICE car. Access would be simple and labour to change it sensible. It suggests that there may be either very poor design engineers at work or a plan to make EV’s very expensive to repair.I was once told by an Audi car salesman that the real profit was not made on selling cars, but rather on servicing and repairing them.Fraser

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 01:39:13 pm
content: Oh yes.Infineon Tricore.HRC fuses INSIDE the inverter metal housing.Tiny leaf spring connectors to connect two PCBs, not busbarsQuote from: Halcyon on October 14, 2025, 10:52:56 amAs I was always saying, if outside of France someone wants to buy a Peugeot, the best thing is to just toss their drivers license into a shredder. Because they clearly don't care about driving or cars, and they don't have any common sense.Here is what's inside an inverter of a Japanese car from 20 year ago. Not even an EV, less power.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 01:54:42 pm
content: MAHLE is a german OEM that also sells to BMW.While Stellantis has acquired a pretty bad reputation - in particular for their EVs -, keep in mind that most parts in a modern car are from various OEMs that are not directly linked to the manufacturers.Whether Stellantis is responsible for the malfunction of this charger board, sure, as it's the manufacturer that's responsible for the parts they use.Whether MAHLE usually makes crap, I don't think so in general, but I do think many car OEMs have not yet acquired the know-how to make reliable parts for EVs in general, and poor reliabilty of EVs is still going to be a thing for quite a while unless you go for the top EV makers.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 01:58:27 pm
content: I was wrong in my earlier comment. The charger module was the DC-DC converter for the 12V car battery and was on a Renault Zoe.Just look at what repair techs face when repairing some EV’s …..https://youtu.be/fHFxIAnKPHs?si=CWDtMdst-3N6gBj7

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 03:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 14, 2025, 10:52:56 amNot me, especially after they gutted out Magneti Marelli and at the same time decided to replace any engine that worked (all the italian ones, figures) with whatever shitfest they are using nowI recall MM working on much better solutions at the time when they were researching EVs, but as with the powertrains they decided to go full french and remove most/all italian engineering. There are many that think tavares willingly destroyed the brand from the inside out

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 03:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 14, 2025, 01:54:42 pmIn the end you get what you pay for. Stellantis probably pinched every penny out of the deal so they got crap parts. Add poor mechanical design to it (according to Fraser) and the dissaster is complete.Somewhere in the 1990's Mazda and Opel shared a design for a diesel engine. However, there where differences. Cars from Mazda had the engine injection controller (a ceramic hybrid potted in silicon goo made by Denso) in a module mounted at a cool spot under the hood. Cars from Opel had their injection controller (a through hole PCB) bolted straight onto the engine. Guess which one was most problematic... Opel.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 05:25:51 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 14, 2025, 01:39:13 pmHaha, replaced my Opel Grandland X Hybrid4 by a 2014 Peugeot 508 Diesel. (actually a Toyota Avensis in between those two, which was totaled after two weeks of driving).After all, that Peugeot is not bad - but I really went against my strong opinion on Peugeot cars there. My all time favorite Top Gear episode is still "Modern Peugeot driver", it is just hilarious.Oh, and don't buy that Opel, it's crap. Still happy with the Peugeot.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 05:45:53 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 14, 2025, 01:39:13 pmWell my wifes "CityBug" Peugeot 107 from 2008 is still going strong ....WAIT - That car was designed by Toyota(Aygo) ... The C1 & 107 was just "clones" w. another plastic front/back.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 06:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 14, 2025, 01:18:14 pmA friend of mine is working on putting a brand new Chevrolet EV back on the road after a relatively minor crash. Nothing terrible - rad supports and the like, headlight, bodywork. The stumbling block (other than parts availability)? The airbags deployed. Those are easy - already replaced, new module programmed (.. that was an expensive tool). However, when the drivers airbag deploys, the pyro fuse for the battery is triggered. It'sinside the pack. They offer no replacement for the fuse (you have to source it elsewhere), no instructions on performing the replacement, no service to repair it. Their only offering is an entire new battery, and therefore any airbag deployment even on a lightly damaged vehicle withless than 2000 miles on itis a write-off.I cannot, for a second, believe that's unintentional. They know what they're doing, they know what the consequences are.. and they want to sell you another car.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 06:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on October 14, 2025, 05:45:53 pmit was a joint venture and build in the "Toyota Peugeot Citroën Automobile Czech" factory, that was renamed "Toyota Motor Manufacturing Czech Republic" when Toyota bought out PSA. The engine was actually from Daihatsu, though they are mostly owned by ToyotaThe current Aygo (X) is actually based on a Yaris

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 06:51:17 pm
content: I actually worked for a Tier-1 automotive electronics manufacturer.When I arrived there they assigned to me, as the rookie, a customer account that nobody wanted; Chrysler. This was months before the Daimler “merger among equals”.Within the first weeks, I understood why no one wanted that account. It was an unmitigated pain in the arsehole.During the design process, where our company would do the engineering, we would travel to Auburn Hills to present it to Chrysler engineers during the design reviews. The very first question: is the bill of materials cost within the cost limits mandated by Chrysler? If not, they would not discuss any further technical details. We would go to extreme pains to shave every milli-penny from the circuit.The end result would be a circuit that barely functioned when new, much less as it aged. Our factory prime-pass yields were horrendous. The warranty claims, that my company would eventually pay for, were stratospheric.And of course the circuit, once the it had passed the PPAP, was non-modifiable.We would quote Matthew 19:24, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for Chrysler to authorize a circuit improvement.Those were the “good days”. They tell me that nowadays under Stellantis has become even worse.I am going to stop here, because even 27 years later, my stomach still churns.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 07:01:15 pm
content: sorta related, B Sport has a video on the VW Cariad cluster fuckhttps://youtu.be/rEOd6mOS66E?si=YYfWzqNfQCUW2id1

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 08:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 14, 2025, 01:54:42 pmOEMs build to specs. If the customer (Stellantis) says 60,000 miles / 5 year lifespan is OK, that's what it will be tested to. And some manufacturers pinch far more pennies than others.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 08:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 14, 2025, 06:03:42 pmMany EV manufacturers prevent unauthorised body shops and private individuals buying HV parts because they know bodges and HV do not go well. Tesla is a prime example, you can buy almost anything from them besides HV, which are only for internal Tesla use and some 3rd party body shops that have done the full training package.On the one hand this is anti-repair and shouldn't be the case.On the other hand, this is what happens when you get bodge-shops repairing HV systems:https://tv.vg.no/nyheter/her-staar-teslaen-i-full-fyr?id=122942This fire was traced to improperly torqued high-voltage connections in the junction box that overheated during the supercharging session, setting the car on fire. I don't recall if they actually determined if it was Tesla or a 3rd party repair shop.Manufacturers are going to take the cautious approach here on selling anything related to the high voltage system as long as people think all they need to repair a car is a YouTube video and a $5 DMM. They'll have to be forced to sell these parts on the open market by the EU or something like that. They should be sold, but risk averse manufacturers aren't going to do that willingly.EV batteries are not to be messed around with by morons, prospective short circuit currents in the thousands of amps at 400V.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 08:39:34 pm
content: QuoteThis construction technique doesn't make sense to me either, unless:1. They started with a bare-die design that required a bond wire machine.2. This design evolved to remove the bare dies, replacing them with packaged items (probably forced to by ICs going out of supply).3. No-one wanted to change it any further. Getting changed approved is too much hassle and responsibility for no gain.I will admit though it is kinda pretty. Is the substrate FR4, or something fancier?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 09:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 14, 2025, 08:24:28 pmGM do not even offer the fuses for their own dealers. There are no training packages. They write the vehicles off knowingly when previous generations were repairable in the event ofnot having any damage at all to any part of the 'HV' system.They'll sell you the whole battery for you to fit yourself - and all the cables, motors, and external modules. They just chose to make this part unavailable, and to make certain it needs replacement as often as possible.Now, admittedly, when he gets the pack dropped to fix this, he's going to have to take a WAG at torque on those two rather important bolts.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 09:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 14, 2025, 06:03:42 pmThat in and of itself makes sense though.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 09:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 14, 2025, 09:42:50 pmThere's no reason the fuse cannot be in an accessible compartment not requiring the entire pack be dropped from the vehicle. Well, apart from charging another four hours labour.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 09:51:30 pm
content: The battery enclosure is a structural part which tries to stay intact in a crash, with the pyrofuse isolating it. Having a separate fuse box is not as reliable, because they are liable to not stay connected.Would make more sense to have an access hatch.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 09:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 14, 2025, 09:51:30 pmQuote from: Monkeh on October 14, 2025, 09:44:31 pm

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 10:02:51 pm
content: Stellantis used to go by the name "Chris Hendler Recommends You Start Learning Engine Repair". Just replace "engine" with "electrical"...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 10:10:57 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 14, 2025, 06:03:42 pmOf course it's intentional! If the pyrofuse is triggered it means the impact was large enough that the integrity of the battery pack is compromised. You do NOT want such battery pack back on the road. Charging it may set it on fire. Now or 2 years down the line. It's a liability. For the insurance such a car is a write-off. Nobody will touch it with a earth-to-moon pole.Reality of an EV car.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 10:17:57 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 14, 2025, 09:24:08 pmNew warning label :ALLES MACH-ES-SELBST, BENZINENKOPFEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN BASTLERN!DAS BATTERIEPACKEN IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER BATTERIEMANAGEMENTSYSTEM, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT VIELE SPITZENSPARKEN. IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS FETTIGE HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 10:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 10:10:57 pmThe pack isn't compromised. The damage to the car is fairly minimal, nothing deeper than the washer bottle in the wheel arch. If it's that fragile it can't be expected to survive being on the road for a reasonable lifespan without taking an impact.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 11:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 14, 2025, 10:32:54 pmCan you prove that ? no ? safety first. The battery pack holds a lot of potential energy. Especially if it catches fireIf airbags fire that means there is a large enough impact energy release to trigger the system. The same threshold applies to the battery pack. Airbag fires -> Pyro fires.Advanced airbag systems not only detect magnitude but also the direction of impact and point of impact.There is a safety concern that triggered the pyro.The battery pack may have no outside damage but things inside the pack may have shifted or deformed. I don't know how that particular pack is constructed and i'm not a specialist, but from my past work with EV design i know that safety of the pack is the prime concern.Any time an EV goes up in flames it's headline news. Even though the amount of fires are orders of magnitude less than dinojuice fueled vehicles. Any new, disruptive, technology is always attacked by those who have the most to lose. In this case the groups fearing for their jobs (requirements for different skillset & tools, reduction in maintenance + spare parts, and going to on-line sales model).There are multiple reasons the manufacturer does not want to see that thing back on the road , or even worked on. They know the traditional repair circuit does not have the skill to work on these things SAFELY, and even then there is the problem of certifying it was repaired and inspected properly. The potential for liability is one factor but the ptential for reputation damage is enormous. Can't take that risk. They are already under massive pressure from new players in the market and their profit margins are very low. Especially now with new companies like NIO , Zeeker , BYD and others flooding the markets at a pricepoint they can't even begin to compete with.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 11:16:46 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 10:17:57 pmFirst time I saw the original of that was in the machine room of a Burroughs B1700 at a computing bureau in 1980. My high school maths teacher (who died two years ago at 99 1/2) would regularly take our hand-punched FORTRAN programs in at night to run them. Sometimes I went too, for a debugging session on programs more complex than we'd been assigned in class.Apparently it dates back as far as 1955!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 11:22:55 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:02:34 pmCan you prove it was good from the factory? I'll go with no, seeing as they do catch fire without anything untoward happening to them. I can't prove my diesel won't spin a bearing and set its own oil on fire tomorrow, either.Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:02:34 pmThe biggest being that they really want to sell you another one. It's hard to get parts for anything, even ICE vehicles. They're overpriced and unavailable.. while sitting in brand new vehicles in storage lots. $850b a year insurance industry in the US. Money trumps engineering with these companies all day, every day.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2025, 11:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 14, 2025, 11:22:55 pmProving ? no. But at least there it was assembled according to specification. With the right tools , not reused bolts, torqued to spec and the pyro precharged before mating and programmed to the car. And the manufacturer stands behind that. They won't stand behind a backshed grease-wrench that "thinks" he knows how it works. Not wanting to sell it to their own dealers says enough. The Manufacturer don't trust them to do it right. It doesn;t mean that, when following the right procedure, and the right tools, they would not be able to. If the factory can train people to do it , they can train others to do it right too. But it is an uncontrolled process if it is done outside the factory.A pyrofuse is a complex device that has its own power source and microprocessor and sits on a communication bus. It is "bonded" (software) to the pack and reports its self-test health , temperature, current flow and more parameters.You cannot reuse the bolts. Needs new ones. Needs torquing to spec. Needs programming. It is dangerous to touch the terminals when mated to the pack. The full pack voltage is present on both terminals. Drop a wrench and all hell breaks loose. I've seen the results of someone dropping a wrench on a traction battery for a forklift. Half the warehouse burned down. Because he "thought" he could replace one of the 12 volt batteries.And when you close the pack : are you sure it is still waterproof ?If things go south when working on the pack, who is responsible ?Since the airbags fired : Since you will be mucking with the complex battery system : why don't you just buy a new gas generator and igniter , fold the airbag neatly back in its place and you're good to go. It's a simple cartridge with 2 wire sticking out. Folding an airbag should be easy. Bit of spit and some duct-tape to hold the cover back on and she'll be right as rain.What was that Japanese airbag maker ? Takata ? bankrupt because there were some metal shavings in some airbags. Out of an abundance of caution replace ALL of them EVER. The counter is over 100 million airbags.Just like an Airbag the battery pack in an EV (some) is a NRU : Non Repairable Unit. There are EV's where it can be done in the authorised repair shop. Those packs have a mechanism to de-energize. If the main contactor sits between the terminal and the pyro it can be done. CONTROLLED by TRAINED people. Not by jack-in-the-backshed.What's next ? do it yourself kits to do a battery swap on your pacemaker ? A cheap Temu defibrillator kit made from a lightswitch, an extension cord and two copper balls (or aluminum , copper clad for weight and cheapness) ?No. we're not going there. Period.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 12:17:12 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:56:48 pmUh, no, actually. It's a pyrotechnic charge in a box with a wire link. You can buy it off the shelf, just GM won't tell you what it is. It connects directly back to the same module which sets off the airbags (already replaced and programmed..), and is handled in the same way.Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:56:48 pmIn order: Why not? See previous. Just have to rely on the same skills used for the last century to bolt together high current bus bars. No, see above.Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:56:48 pmIs a silicone sealant that difficult a thing to use in your world?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 12:25:03 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:56:48 pmthe explosive propellants had been stored or handled incorrectly increasing it's explosive force, turning metal container it was in from a gas generator to a grenade

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 12:52:23 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 15, 2025, 12:17:12 amOk. Different from what i'm used to. That one had a microprocessor and active circuitry in it. And a redundant power source (Tadiran LiThioCl cells) so it could fire under complete external powerloss. I did the PCB layout for it.https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelS/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-58892CAF-60A4-40D1-B580-CDD9F9727D4D.htmlandhttps://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelS/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-932F0D4F-2F0C-4FBE-A2CC-0E7320302E40.htmlI wouldn't let anyone work on it but the service center where they have trained personnel and the right equipment, and i will retain my car's warranty.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 01:06:17 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 12:52:23 amFair enough. In this case, it's a pretty simple swap once the lid is off - but as you note, watch where the tools go.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 03:02:08 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:56:48 pmDon't they put ports on them for pressure testing?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 03:09:25 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:56:48 pmAny car is a fast moving people pulverizer we let jack in the backshed work on ... killing themselves from a high voltage/energy circuit is hardly the worst damage they are liable to do.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 03:30:46 am
content: Quote from: Marco on October 15, 2025, 03:09:25 ami don't care if jack-in-the backshed sets his ass on fire. I do care if he doesn't repair my vehicle properly and as a result kills me. I also care if , due to his incompetence, and the crab effect (i learned that today. look it up), my retirement fund tanks !

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 03:32:12 am
content: fixing a battery pack,https://youtu.be/09NEGNRYTk0?si=brv2VJmAiuoJVJ7M

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 03:51:20 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 15, 2025, 03:32:12 am... poking needles into the connector seals , stripping the braid of the DC bus. Poking that braid with a sharp object.i want off this planet .

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 03:54:38 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 03:30:46 amCaveat emptor. You're free to use only licensed repair shops using licensed methods after many thousands of dollars of training and licensed equipment. Just let others be free to work on the battery without doing silly anti-repair shit. Right to repair shouldn't stop at 400V.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 04:20:12 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 15, 2025, 03:32:12 amPretty tame, I like this one where he gets a pack back together with clamps and a prybar for compressing the pack.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 05:43:49 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 14, 2025, 01:39:13 pmA guy brought me a MOSFET module from a 20 year old Toyota electric forklift and it's absolutely massive, using a 6mm thick copper plate as a base with 18 silicon dies connected in parallel.Yet they blow up, from what i assume is overheating since they're mounted on a silicon pad, which tend to be less than perfect at conducting heat.But the improvements in semiconductor tech has allowed me to engineer a replacement with 8 discrete MOSFET's on an aluminum substrate PCB.I wonder if engineers building these modules rely on these advancements in silicon tech a bit too much?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 08:04:00 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 10:10:57 pmNonsense. Pyrofuse goes off when airbags go off. It just means car has been in collision and it isolates the high voltage to allow first responders to cut you out if so needed. Airbags can go off in minor or major accidents and the battery may be unharmed in such a collision. Manufacturer doesn't want to risk electrocuting a first responder so the assumption is if the airbags have gone off then the pack should be isolated.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 08:35:10 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 11:56:48 pmI read this post, and I believe you completely on this. But my conclusion is different than yours.All I'm reading is that the battery packs should have a standard pyro fuse. Don't let the manufacturers come up with proprietary things that are impossible to replace and might write-off the car.We have a good understanding on the battery packs, all of them will be in the order of magnitude of 1000V and few hundred amps. It's possible to design a standardized way of breaking the battery pack in a controlled way.Standardize the connections to it, standardize the mechanical size and interface.This isn't any different than any other fuse in the car. Imagine all the 12V fuses in the car were proprietary, and you cannot replace it yourself. Sound ridiculous, isn't it.You let the battery be a structural device, use a proprietary part that cannot be replaced, ordered, and let the car manufacturer decide when it goes off? Nah, screw that, I don't trust them enough.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 08:39:59 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 14, 2025, 08:39:34 pmDesign timelines for this stuff are long - could be that when the design started, it was assumed that a bare-die hybrid was needed, and subsequently determined that packaged devices ( maybe something not even available when they started) would do. Maybe there is/was/may have been a higher powered variant that used a different hybrid.It may also be that the ceramic substrate provided the best overall performance for conducting heat to the (typically) water cooled backplate once temp range, vibration and thermal cycling were taken into account.Or maybe it was an evolution of an earlier design and they wanted to change as little as possible

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 09:02:27 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 15, 2025, 08:35:10 amWell, no, it's far too early in the history of EVs to have a full understanding of battery packs and standardise them. It would be premature to do so now. Different companies trying different things is the only way to find out what really does work best in real-world use, and then standardise on that.QuoteIndeed, a good example, but not in the way you think it is.Cars have been around for 140 years, but it wasn't until just under 100 years ago that the Ford Model A had a control layout reasonably familiar to modern drivers (at least those who can drive a manual transmission).As for fuses, probably every manufacturer had their own design. Then for a long time there was at least Lucas in the UK and Bosch in Germany with their own fuse designs. And probably at least one in the USA.The fast acting 1/4" cylindrical glass fuse was developed in the late 1930s and perhaps took until the 1950s to be near universal.But then the blade fuse was developed in 1976 and spread to I think all manufacturers in the first half of the 1980s -- 100 years after the first car and more than 70 years after the Model T.I suspect we haven't even had the Model A of EVs yet.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 10:40:53 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 15, 2025, 09:02:27 amTo flip your point on its head and to put it another way..It has taken us 140 years of ICE cars development, 100 years after the first car and 70 years after model T to standardize on the blade fuse.but it has taken less than 40 years since the introduction of the 3 point seatbelt in 1959 for them to be standardized / mandated.It has taken even less time than that for us to get to EVs today (approximately 20-30 years, I do mean EVs in the present mass manufactured form)My point is that with scientific development the rate of future development accelerates as well. The only reason why the automotive manufacturers do not standardize these safety components is greed.The greed for captive market.Another point to consider, all these manufacturers do standardize development ( think sharing platforms, body trains, OEM manufacturers, SCM, teams of engineers) across different car brands owned by the same parent. However to create artificial segmentation and potentially lost revenue in service, they do not standardize on any such safety components or user replacable components and certainly do not make it easy..

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:32:06 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 14, 2025, 10:17:57 pmNow *THAT* goes into my vocabulary, immediatly.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:34:56 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 15, 2025, 08:04:00 amIn addition: from what I've gathered so far is that some (sane!) car manufacturers are making battery packs modular so they can be repaired at module level. This would mean including being able to replace pyrofuses. AFAIK VW and Toyota have modular battery packs. Without a modular battery pack, the risk of a complete write-off due to a simple problem is way too high.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:42:21 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 03:51:20 amI think he got fully "BOSCH LICENSED / QUALIFIED" to work on EV systems, and is an overall great engineer anyway. He knows what he is doing.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 12:17:55 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 15, 2025, 09:02:27 amAnd now we have six variations on the blade fuse, two on the j-case, and midi and mega bolt-on fuses.. at least. And you'll generally find all of them across a vehicle, usually three or four types in the same box, and which one they use for each application is more or less random manufacturer to manufacturer.. and model to model.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 03:33:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 15, 2025, 08:04:00 amThat's what the isolation contactors are for. There's two : one on power, on on return. It would be weird to trigger the pyro for a minor event.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 03:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 15, 2025, 03:54:38 amin the same fashion : let's sell do it yourself defibrillator implant kits and battery swap kits for pacemakers.It's not about right to repair. It's a bout RIGHT REPAIR. Just having the right doesn't mean you'll do it right.Do you really think that jack-in-the-backshed has a milliohm meter to check the connections ? He doesn't even known what an ohm is or what's it used for.Likewise : Just because you can make an led blink using an arduino doesn't mean you are qualified to mess with the battery packs.A lot of people overestimate their skill level. And that's when accidents happen. Either during the repair , or after when the repair is not done right.I wouldn't touch the pack . I've been around many. Both hands in my pockets. We always had people around that knew how to handle them. "Only the pack technicians are allowed to touch the pack".Just mating the BMS system or the sensor grid to a pack requires knowing what you are doing. The pack holds charge and is "live". Manipulate that board wrong and it's a catastrophe waiting.Even the smaller packs i used in the launch vehicle were dangerous to handle. They are only 48 or 62 volts but pack a lot of energy. You won't electrocute yourself, but accidentally short a rail and there will be trouble.Outside the pack is safe : the contactor is open unless all handshaking is done. Inside the pack ... not so much. everything is live. Even on a "depleted" pack. A discharged cell still holds 3.something volts.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 04:08:31 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 15, 2025, 08:35:10 amYou need different voltage and current ratings. The Pyrofuse in a model s-Plaid can handle 2200 ampere. The pyro in a Nissan leaf is a fraction of that...So you need different fuses.But i do agree : Standardize the form factor and the location : accessible without needing to open the pack. And put the pyro AFTER the contactors. The contactor needs a readback terminal so you can verify it is open and thus safe to touch the pyro connections. Just poking a voltmeter on the contactor pole is dangerous. The readback terminal has a current limitation resistor. If there is voltage present the contactor is closed. If you accidentally short that point to chassis nothing happens. You can get maximum 1 milliampere out of it. That's less than the trip point of a wet-room earth leakage breaker (30 milliamp @ 240VAC. but the battery is DC and more dangerous)Standardizing the interface would also be a good idea. But we can't even get the world standardized on charging ports. Designed by fossils to be the most unwieldy and inconvenient form factor possible. Look at ChaDemo. My wife can't even lift that connectorlook at these monstrosities :At least now in the Us they have finally adopted NACS (the "tesla" connector)We are ,sadly, still in the stage where manufacturers are exploring things. Just like with early electricity systems. Standardization will eventually happen, but right now it's a crapshoot.Tesla made a whole bunch of stuff out of necessity. There simply wasn't anything.Now everyone wants their share of the cake and comes up with "solutions", even though the designs made by tesla are available royalty free. The industry suffers massively from the NIH syndrome (Not Invented Here).Another point is that everyone is trying to play catch-up and runs around screaming "i want to buy a battery", "i want to by a drive unit with inverter", " who wants to sell me one". The answer : nobody. Because nobody has that ready to go. (had, things are changing) . You want a battery and a drive unit ? DESIGN and MAKE one. And therein lies the problem. A car is no longer a contraption made from gears and sprockets bought somewhere. The traditional car makers are way out of familiar territory.Anyway. we're going off-topic very far. I'm out of the industry.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 04:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on October 15, 2025, 11:42:21 amCan be, but poking the seal on that data connector makes me cringe. That connector is exposed to the outside (even with that plastic cover there is a risk for saltspray and moisture ingress). Those connector inserts have special rubber plugs to seal each contact pin. And you poke that with a testprobe ? yes they are self-sealing up to a point but even then ... You may as well use those Hirschmann KLEPS grabbers on the individual wires. just as bad.And splitting the HV braid with a sharp object ? To do what ? read the current in the wire ? you can get the current reading from the CAN bus.No. This requires different tools.Bosh ... Bosh ... why do i know that name .. Dieselgate ?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 04:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 04:08:31 pm..and then there's the pile of steaming dogshit that is the CCS "standard". Rumour has it that part of the reason it's so poorly designed is there were some legacy ICE manufacturers on the committee deliberately wanting to make it very hard to make work reliably, tarnishing the EV user experience.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 05:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2025, 04:38:29 pmi'd believe that rumour. In dutch there is an expression "je weren als een duiveltje in een wijwatervat" : twisting like a devil in a vat of holy water.The traditional car industry has been squirming and sabotaging at every level possible. They are scared. They want to retain the current status quo. The 2026 model is different for the 2025 model because it has two extra cupholders. That was the extent of the creativity and the only budget allowed by their beancounters. Oh, and you can get it in a new color we call "oceanside Green", but we internally call it "friday evenings paintshop leftovers accidentally mixed by the janitor".Car makers used to design cars. From the fist bolt , through the engine to the finished product. Now they just "assemble", buying bits and pieces off each other or other suppliers. They wouldn't know how to design an engine controller if their life depended on it. case in point : they can't and their life is depending on it ! They want to "buy" batteries and drive trains and infotainment for EV. But there isn't any in open market. They are scrambling to make something and hire people. Some German car makers (plural) were trying to coax engineers to move to Germany to design the electronics at 1/3 of the salary prevalent in silicon valley. Yeah, not going to happen. And it didn't. They opened design centers in the valley and still can't attract people. Too slow moving , too rigid, too much red tape. They don't understand how technology is pushed today.They buy motor blocks off each other. It's all "soup". ECU from Bosh , ABS from Wabco , Infotainment from Clarion or Delco , Navigation from Garmin , instrument cluster from Valeo. And nothing works properly together. A Volvo with a Renault motor and a Magneti Marelli starter from a Fiat.Because of that they are now in a situation where they are forced to take back the "design" aspect. The costs are astronomical and the skillset is lost.People demand glitzy infotainment systems and navigation. It's become a high-tech world. And the traditional makers are still staring at a couple of of pushrods and a piston. History repeats itself. The fist automobiles required a flag-bearing pedestrian to walk in front of it. They would scare farmers their cows wouldn't be able to poop (or was it give milk) anymore ( or was that the first train ?). Sow fear to retain the status quo and keep the money flowing.Meanwhile the Chinese makers are chomping at the bit and have started flooding the markets. Nio , Zeeker , Byd and many others can produce a car that has all the "flashy high tech" at a pricepoint the traditional makers can't even buy the raw material for (yeah i hear you , politics and state sponsored investment and whatnot. But we can do the same no ? What's stopping us ? a bunch of muppets in government ? Government has put up so many roadblocks it has ground to a halt. Their solution ? More taxes ! we'll keep the money flowing by squeezing the consumer even more. Like the tariff joke... ).It's going (it already is) to be a bloodbath. I forgot which japanese car maker announced that :" This is it. The current models are the last ever, we are not going to make new versions and we are not going to do EV. We can't bear the costs in an ever shrinking market". Mazda ? There were even mergers announced that aborted last minute. Sony is now partnering with Honda to make an EV :https://www.shm-afeela.com/en/. Sony. another company that doesn't know what to do. Their products are good quality and advanced but they suffer from "Madogiwazoku" : old guys in a window-desk doing nothing.It's not just the car makers that are freaking out and trying to sabotage the new technology influx. The dealers are freaking out. The business model is changing : less maintenance needed, buy online , no more haggling, no more after sales. Only do warranty repairs at a fixed pre-arranged price by the manufacturer. And they need to invest in training and equipment, while their lots are full of unsold cars that nobody wants. Service providers: oilchangers and after-market things like soundsystems and navigation. It's all going away. Except tyres and wipers + fluid there is nothing to do.I have not taken my car (Model X) to have anything done to it in the last 8 years, except tires. It doesn't even need brake pads. Regen takes care of that. I top off the washer fluid myself. That is the extent of skill i need.No timing belts, no spark plugs, no oil changes, no filters, no adjustments. Come home, plug it in and it's full in the morning. Put some air in the tires once in a while.I understand their motivation : their livelihood (well, it's more about profit and shareholder value. they don't care about their people) is at stake.Nokia is gone. The era of the candybar/flipphone is over.Manual carpet weaving is gone. The mechanization eliminated that.Manual text transcription by monks is gone, the printing press changed that.Things change.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 05:49:30 pm
content: Quoteand spare parts for the 26 model are a totally different parts number to the 25 model and twice the price

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 05:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 04:08:31 pmIt would be nice to see a similarly svelte connector suitable for 3-phase use for everyone else.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 06:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 15, 2025, 05:55:43 pmit's kind of weird. Why you need 3 phase ?The US is 2 phase 240v (centertapped so you get two 120v legs in antiphase) .I have my charger on a dryer outlet (30 ampere 240V) and the car limits itself to 24 ampere on such a circuit. Works perfectly fine for overnight charging. Plug in by 8PM and car is full by 8AM. Top off daily-commute driving in less than that. There is no need for 3 phase.You can get an 80 amp circuit on 2 phase for much faster.The NACS connector can already do that 80 amps. (the physical nacs used in the superchargers is shape/size the same by the guts are liquid cooled.There is nothing preventing adoption of NACS worldwide. Tesla makes it available royalty-free.The problem is that adopting this would "validate" Tesla by the other carmakers. NIH problem.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 06:08:11 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 06:04:09 pmBecause we don't have 200A or 400A 240V services to households, and because wedohave 3-phase available most places. Sure, my house doesn't have it right now.. but it's 6m away. The work required to upgrade my street to support 80A single-phase charging is greater than that required to support 32A 3-phase. Even for lower current charging it's beneficial for the distribution network to have a balanced load.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 06:40:09 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 05:27:48 pmActually not. That is the trap a lot of car makers fell in trying to tap into the gadget oriented crowd. But that is just a small market. Most people just want a car which works. An EV could be so simple. Flick a switch and drive away... Look at how the makers from Top Gear always ridiculed BMW's overcomplicated controls.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 06:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 15, 2025, 06:08:11 pmBecause we don't have 200A . or 400ANeither do i.My main feed is 120A. Car pulls 24A and you can lower that. 20A 240V is a regular power outlet in europe ( at least in belgium ). that worked while i was still living in my condo.No need to go 3 phase. If you have it fine. But you don't really need it. Put it on a timer, use night tariff. The car can even be programmed to do that.If you have solar + storage it's even better. The solar can charge storage at daytime and then dump at high power to the car overnight. No feed from the grid change needed. Understood that doesn't work everywhere.But it can work.If your solar / storage system is the same as the car they talk to each other and do load-shedding automatically. ( the car being the load shedded ) . As the house power draw fluctuates the car ramps up/down to stay within the available power to the home. It avoids pulling from grid and favors solar.If you have a smart fuse panel like SPAN it can do even more efficient things.I haven't paid electricity bills in the last 5 years since i bought my home. I got solar and storage (48 panels and 4 powerwalls). whole house is electric using heatpump for cooling (40c in summer) /heating (0c in winter). no other power sources. Again, understood it doesn't work everywhere , but it does work.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 06:51:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2025, 06:40:09 pmOvercomplicated controls. I Agree. i drove a KIA electric as a rental once . It has both touch screen with underneath the touchscreen mechanical buttons that do the same function as the touchscreen. The steering wheel had so many buttons it looked like a 747.My car doesn't have any buttons. I get in and drive. It knows when to go forward and backward. there's no key, no remote. if i need anything : voice command. I never touch that display.Look at car aurconditioning systems. 7 fan settings, 5 position settings, recirculation button, boost button, and an infinitely variable slider between red and blue. you calculate the possible settings. Your thermostat at home : set temperature in degrees. simple. Why does you car airco need 1750 possible settings ? i want it 22 degree C. done. winter, summer, sun, rain, i don't care how you do it car. just do it.If it rains wipers come on.None of those technologies are new. But they overcomplicate things unnecessarily thinking it attracts people. it doesn't.I read many comments about how "touchscreens are hard to use , they distract, clicky tactile buttons are easier". The reality is you don't really use the touchscreen much. The only two buttons needed are the direction indicator and volume control roller. And those are on the yoke (yeah i drive a yoke. Never going back to a wheel with control stalks). I don't know what else there is to fiddle with. Pretty much everything is set the way i like it , linked to my profile on my phone. If my wife gets in the driver seat :her profile loads automatically.that's the beauty of that big touchscreen: you don;t need to touch it while driving. Set it and forget it. change thing ? voice command. eyes on the road.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 07:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 06:41:07 pmNot having it because someone couldn't be bothered making a connector is not, however, fine. If you want a faster charge capability at home, 3-phase is the way to go, and it'd begreatto have it available on a more compact connector than CCS. Also, said faster charge capability can then be used at other locations without requiring a large, expensive DC charger or a silly single phase load.Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 06:51:43 pmI don't want to argue with the car for five minutes because my accent isn't what they trained it on, or have it reject commands because it can't get a signal to talk to some 5kW 'AI' server to figure out what I'm saying. And I don't need to take my eyes off the road - the wonder of having buttons and knobs which do specific things and don't move..

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 07:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 06:04:09 pmIn some European countries I believe it's common to have 3 Phase at relatively low current (32A?) , so without 3-phase charging, speeds can be rather limited.A common EV configuration in Europe is to have a 3-phase 11kW onboard charger that can also run single phase 7kW. Public 3-phase AC charging at 11kW is also pretty common.In the UK, 3-phase domestic is rare but it runs down the street as 3-phase, with each house using one phase.Increasing use of heat pumps means 3-phase is likely to get more common in domestic premises in future.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 07:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 03:44:57 pmSurgical equipment is readily available.QuoteIf they are swappable in the first place, sure, why not? Medical equipment quite often outlives their manufacturers, get spares for any consumables.QuoteNot having the right means you won't get to do it at all.QuoteThe petrol heads had sparkplug and timing testers too. It's 50$ worth of kit, for low current testers. AFAICS they don't use high current testing for EV connections, but even if they did, cheap testers would become available, they are not inherently expensive.QuoteThey are the same kind of people as the average EV mechanic and the courses are not a 4 year masters.QuoteSame for other parts of the car.QuoteEven a small car suspension spring is too and that danger is not really intuitive if you've never seen an accident either.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 07:59:24 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 06:51:43 pmSettings on the radio, window defrosting, seat heating, accept-refuse calls, cruise control settings, nav. Just a few things to mention that I use daily.It would be nice if the countermeasures dispenser settings would be on the throttle, but close enough... wait, wrong vehicle.Sure voice control, could do some of this, but screw that, I want a car, not yet another subscription service.Touchscreen is just a cost reduction. It's measurably worse, to the point where it shows up in the statistics as cause for accidents.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 08:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 15, 2025, 07:59:24 pmAgreed. Touchscreens in cars suck. Last time I rode along in a Tesla, setting the aircon through the touchscreen was a nuisance. A rotary knob is just better. Actually, in the late 1990's / early 2000's there was a trend that car radios had volume up/down buttons instead of a rotary knob. That trend didn't last long and never returned.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 08:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2025, 04:38:29 pmI'm baffled that they thought it necessary to use powerline ethernet, rather than just something like single-wire CAN like Tesla originally used for superchargers. There isn't much data to send over the connection, even with plug-n-charge certificates.(Plug-n-charge itself is absurdly complicated too, requiring a company like Hubject to get involved in the process, and with cars requiring manual entry of certificates via a mobile app etc.)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 09:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 15, 2025, 07:12:00 pmThe european "mennekes" connector is 3 phase and tesla's on-board charger can eat anything from single phase 110v to three phase 240 volt. The mennekes is larger than NACS but still small compared to the "committee" monstrosities. the mennekes connector was something that was already avaialable in the market and a mandate from europe to use. They would not accept yet another (proprietary) connector.For DC charging the NACS is the most compact. That connector was designed from the onset to carry 110/240AC and 480DC at very high currents (250Kw+ charging). no need for afterthought bolt-on extra terminals. Two power pins and a single-wire communication.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 09:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 15, 2025, 07:47:17 pmTesla publishes full service manuals with detailed procedures. free. But some things are better left to specialists.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 09:30:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2025, 08:07:43 pmNCAP does (or will soon) subtract points on their safety rating if certain controls are not physical buttons

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 09:55:13 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 15, 2025, 07:59:24 pmwindow defrosting, -> automaticseat heating / cooling-> automaticaccept-refuse calls -> scroller on steering wheel. click itcruise control settings -> right scroller on steering wheel. scroll to speed up slow down. click to engage, click again to disengagenav. -> voice or touch. you don't really use that while driving.wipers -> automaticheadlights ->automatic, even high beam low beam.Radio : left scroller volume up down. pause/play click and click left/right for previous/next ( it's the same as a mouse scrollwheel)Station selection is through icons on audio tab. You can store anything you want there. Radio , streaming services like youtube, slacker, intune and others. phone playlist. whatever.left scroll long press is user programmable . mine is set to change temperature. long press, scroll up/down , clickI Can't remember the last time i had to touch the screen while driving. Or talk to it for that matter. The car knows my playlist. It's either that or the AP news channel.Voice command is not yet another subscription service. On-board processing.Don't dis it until you have tried it.Last time i drove a rental the damn thing made me mad.Stop the car, press a button to turn off engine. Take off seatbelt. Open door . fleedlede-deedle. ah, headlights are still on. fleedlede-deedle. wipers too . fleedlede-deedle. parking brake . get out to come back 2 minutes later to check if the damn thing was locked. Chevrolet something.I walk to my car, it opens the door for me , adjusts seat and mirrors . i put my foot on the brake to "wake it" . This closes the door and by pressing the throttle it starts moving (in the right direction). When i'm done i get out and walk away. it closes the door and goes to sleep. If it rains the wipers come on and adjust speed. if it get's dark the lights come on and the displays got to dark mode. if there's nobody on the road the high-beams go on. if it detects opposing headlights it goes back to low beam. the cabin is always at the right temperature. so are the seats.Technologically all these things are not hard to do. If i come home it opens the gate for me. Software. it's one line of code : if current_position_on_gps = stored_home_position then send_gateopener_command.But it requires system integration , and that's where the traditional makers are lacking. They have next to zero software skills and buy bits and pieces that don't or can't work together. The radio is x , the instrument cluster is y the drivetrain z.The example above of the garage door opener is a feature that was suggested by an early Tesla user on a forum. They implemented it overnight and rolled it out in an over the air update. pure code.Same thing for hillstart. Someone suggested : you have an electric parking brake. San Francisco is hell with its steep slopes. Can't you just put the car in hold until we press the throttle ? overnight update. In the early days there were several ideas that came directly form users that were very quickly implemented.Everything sits either on CAN , LIN, Ethernet or Flexray (i'm not sure they still use that one) . The main computer can read any input and write any output anywhere in the car. The amount of wiring required is very minimal.High speed , redundant pathways, to a few nodes (the body controllers), From there breakout power (the body controllers have all the power switching and e-fuse on-board) and lower speed data to subnodes. Audio is transported using A2B to the point of use or pickup. Camera uses a simple coax with phantom power. it's essentially MIPI serialized using an off-the shelf TI chippie.They did a lot of work eliminating wiring. During car assembly the modules power up while it is still on the line. The moment they plug in a door for the first time the main computer registers this event, configures the door (it knows what trim version this is , verifies it has the right amount of speakers and amplifiers , loads the latest firmware version and by the time the conveyer has moved to the next station that element is ready to go. The same goes for any other element being installed. When it is at the last station it is completely configured and ready to go.All this aside, This is exactly what the threat is from the chinese car makers. They already know how to do all this and they are learning what is missing VERY fast. Way faster than the traditional car makers. They have a massive , cheap workforce, and using the above approach the entire car is a pile of software and i/o. Need something new ? make module , plug on network , add some routines.Look historically how slow the uptake of things has been. CAN for example. That was invented in the early 80's. It took more than a decade before every car started using it, and that was only because ODB became mandatory in 1996.How many years have we been blabbing about ISDN ? It took so long to roll out that it was obsolete before they even started the real rollout.ADSL was the first one that was rolled out fast (relatively) and also got its lunch eaten very fast by Asian vendors. Coppercom, Globespan , Arris, Tioga, Alcatel, and many others , . All came and went within a 5 year span. replaced by the likes of Mediatek , Realtek, Marvell (Cavium) , Sigma. It took them only 2 years to ramp up and then overtake. That was 20 years ago !Like it or net , the "Traditional players" are too slow when it comes to innovation. Especially against the east. There are a few exception.Look at something like JLCPCB. 10 years ago did not exist. NOw you can get 6 layer boards, flex boards , aluminum clad boards in 24 hours for a fraction of the cost.How does the "west" react ? putting up roadblocks (tariffs, customs, technology blocks) for these products to come in. The right reaction should be : let's also innovate and speed up.Anyway. waaaaaaaaay off topic. Just my perspective. I've lived through these ramps (ISDN chipsets, ADSL chipsets, Electric vehicles ) . It takes a massive amount of effort and the window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 10:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 15, 2025, 05:49:30 pmThen you're buying the wrong brand car.I happen to like Subarus. I like how they drive, I like how they handle bad roads -- and yet still "handle" on high speed twisty tarseal roads, I like how practical they are, I like how long they last.They have 5 year model generations with the same body shape and chassis. Sure the cupholders might change. But the mechanical parts stay the same. Many of the mechanical parts stay the same for a number of generations. Many of the mechanical parts are interchangeable between Impreza, XV, WRX, Forester, Legacy, Outback for many model years.When I lived in the USA for a year  in 2019/20 I bought a 2017 Outback. It was lovely on the freeway or on city streets, but go into the mountains and drive sportily  and it wallowed like a pig compared to the Outbacks I'd owned back in New Zealand (I'd sold my 1997 2.5l 10 speed manual one when I moved to the US).I spent $80 on a genuine OEM WRX rear sway bar. It took my friendly local mechanic a good 15 minutes to fit it. Perfect fit (as I expected). Totally transformed the car -- and without harming the plush ride on the freewayBack home in NZ in May 2020 I bought a used import JDM 2008 Outback. Yeah! Great handling stock. I don't know what they're thinking with the US models. I expected it to be 3-6 years, but COVID happened and I went home to NZ living in Fremont I was close to Calaveras Rd, which is kinda fun, especially at night.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 10:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 15, 2025, 10:33:44 pmAmericans like a different "feel" for how the car handles.Ahh calaveras. Especially next to the lake where it splits to Felter. Mt Hamilton road is also fun at night....

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 10:48:12 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 06:51:43 pmSounds like the wrong car.My 1995, 1997, 2017, and now 2008 Subaru station wagons (variously called Legacy, Grandwagon, and two Outback) have all had aircon with physical buttons and I just set it to 21.5C and leave it there year round, and hit the "Auto" button for everything else. They even figure out when defogging is needed -- yes even the 1995/97 models. The most I touch is the recirculation button, both to lock it to NOT recirculate 99% of the time  and because I drive on gravel roads a lot and put it on recirculation for a minute to keep dust out when I meet someone coming the other way,.QuoteI haven't owned a car with that yet. Automatic headlights on/off/dip yes. WHYYYY do car makers think you want recirculation when you get in a car that is 35C inside and it's 20 or 25 C outside?I want to replace that hot air as quickly as possible, not cool it. Replace it and THEN cool the new cooler air from outside. Sheesh.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 10:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 15, 2025, 10:48:12 pmair conditioning vs. climate control

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:13:09 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 15, 2025, 10:52:15 pmI guess I've never had a car with "air conditioning" then -- and I buy only inexpensive used cars.My 1984 Daihatsu Charade (bought 1996) had a heater. My 1991 Toyota Corona liftback (which I bought in 1998 with 160,000 km on it) already had this "climate control".

author: kite31
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:17:24 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 15, 2025, 10:48:12 pmSo far as I am concerned, that temperature situation is why the sunroof was invented. Convertible owners may have another view again.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: kite31 on October 15, 2025, 11:17:24 pmThere I was thinking it was invented to aid in washing the upholstery. Whether you planned to or not.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: kite31 on October 15, 2025, 11:17:24 pmSunroof: HELL NO!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 15, 2025, 08:42:24 pmMy guess is that some clueless idiot given too much power said "This is a power application, we should use a powerline protocol". Despite it not actually needing to carry data over power.The same, or another idiot then came to the similarly poor conclusion that it should be a networking protocol, when there are only ever exactly two devices which need to communicate a small amount of information between them. All the networking aspects should have been put upstream of the charger, so only the few charger manufacturers needed to deal with it, not the car makers who have a poor track record of doing software.Oh and just to add more fuel to the dumpster fire, someone decided it should use XML.I've not looked in detail but my impression is that whereas Chademo has a well-defined sequence of actions for a charging session, so is simple and just works, CCS essentially says "Here's a stupid physical layer and an API, Go for it", leading to different interpretations and implementations which have taken many years to get working reliably. Not at all helped by the use of the powerline physical layer which is difficult to sniff to diagnose problems.It could literally have been done better, faster and cheaper with 1-wire RS232

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2025, 11:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 15, 2025, 11:21:23 pmIt might not be invented for that, but it is usually what it does

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2025, 12:39:12 am
content: Quote from: kite31 on October 15, 2025, 11:17:24 pmyeah, sunroofs work wonders in 40c summers and -15c winters... NOT !

author: kite31
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2025, 01:45:53 am
content: We were talking about dumping heat quickly and naturally when it has built up in the car on an otherwise pleasant sunny day.We have 40° here too, -15 you can keep.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2025, 02:14:48 am
content: Quote from: kite31 on October 16, 2025, 01:45:53 amOpening all four door windows works plenty good enough, you don't need a sunroof. You've probably got rid of the stinking hot air by the time you get out of the car park, or by the time you're halfway up the onramp if it dumps you straight on to a high speed road.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2025, 02:30:08 am
content: just remote start the AC. Car, i'm leaving in 10.

author: kite31
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2025, 03:28:40 am
content: I think that is exactly contrary to the point first made.It seems my flippancy about a sunroof has grown legs and entered the jungle. Ah, the internet.

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2025, 08:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on October 15, 2025, 09:02:27 amWould this be considered a "blade fuse"? OK it's a rewire-able variant from an antique dynamo lighting switchboard, it dates back to the 1920s, the fuse is possibly earlierbutI can't find any patent for non-projectile fuses from this era.Also a later one of slightly different design.Edit: Cylindrical glass fuses are in a CAV catalog from 1927, which has the rewire-able blade type as well.David

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2025, 11:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 15, 2025, 06:51:43 pmI have driven various cars including Tesla's and I have never found a car that got auto climate just right.The problem I think is the varying solar load. If you live in CA(?) you get pretty much year round sun. In the UK sun is mostly a myth in the winter/autumnal months. In the shoulder seasons we get intermittent cloud and sun, often varying throughout the day and as you drive along a road.I find myself frequently tweaking the climate controls because the solar loading changes the cabin temperature drastically. This changes with the direction you are heading in too. This is not a problem a house thermostat has to deal with because, in general, houses do not move[citation needed].I know my car has a solar/sun sensor (in fact, two of them, one on each side of the windshield) and I know it adjusts the climate control using that data on the auto setting - the trouble is on the auto setting the car just freaks out as soon as it sees sun and assumes that you need full air con and then as soon as it goes away it warms up again. I've found other cars that take ages to react to any sun. It's just not consistent enough.I found on the rental Model Y we had the climate control was either ice cold when it saw sun or warm. It had almost no in between range. I don't know why but being a rental it's possible it was broken in some way as I have heard decent things about Tesla's climate control software. I did find the auto wipers to be pretty much useless at night, and the auto headlights would flash on and off as soon as any pair of white lights that could possibly be a car headlamp was in front -- but, in most cases, it was just a reflective road sign or bollard. Autopilot (not FSD) was nice though.Auto headlights are fine, and on my VW, auto wipers are pretty much perfect (but it uses a traditional IR sensor, not deep learning neural networks.) The only complaint I'd have with auto wipers is they're a little too enthusiastic, a tiny bit of rain can set them off when you'd be OK with no wipers.