Another Engineer warning turned down... and people dies. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 02:11:17 pm
content: I can't stand this:1986-01-28 Space Shuttle Challenger disasterThe Rogers Commission found NASA's organizational culture and decision-making processes had been key contributing factors to the accident, with the agency violating its own safety rules. NASA managers had known since 1977 that contractor Morton-Thiokol's design of the SRBs contained a potentially catastrophic flaw in the O-rings, but they had failed to address this problem properly. NASA managers also disregarded warnings from engineers about the dangers of launching posed by the low temperatures of that morning, and failed to adequately report these technical concerns to their superiors.2003-02-01 Space Shuttle Columbia... but some engineers suspected that the damage to Columbia was more serious.NASA managers limited the investigation, reasoning that the crew could not have fixed the problem if it had been confirmed.2018-08-14 Morandi Bridge collapse in ItalyEng. Antonio Brencich warned in 2016 that the bridge project was faulty and had some design problems.Guess what happened? Again?How long this list should go?I am so sad. RIP to them.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 02:20:31 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on August 14, 2018, 02:11:17 pmExtremely sad. As always their priority are probably money, money and more money. A life has no value.Unfortunately it will not be the last (hate to say it).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 03:46:15 pm
content: Yes, this all comes down to money, very sad.Correction: the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster was2003-02-01.

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 04:59:18 pm
content: Interesting that this is Italy. There seems to be some tension between the engineers and politicians?These scientists were prosecuted and found guilty for being wrong about earthquake warnings:https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/italian-scientists-get/Later exonerated:http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/italy-s-supreme-court-clears-l-aquila-earthquake-scientists-good

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 07:02:16 pm
content: I'm not sure I disagree with the decision regarding the Columbia disaster. If they couldn't have fixed the damage anyway, what good would it do investigating? If I'd been a member of the crew I think I'd rather not know ahead of time that my demise was highly likely, it would just make it even harder to focus on performing the tasks required to attempt a trip home.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 07:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 14, 2018, 07:02:16 pmIt's very rare to not be able to do anything at all. You possibly could alter the trajectory or try other things to lessen the stress in the damaged area.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 07:08:31 pm
content: I thought there were possibilities discussed at the inquiry that they could have adjusted their re-entry 'angle' to reduce temperatures on the affected wing, at the expense of other surfaces - not saying that it would have worked...

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 07:43:50 pm
content: Too many bridges have collapsed in Italy in recent years, including one the was opened only 10 days before it collapsed.The Genoa's bridge that collapsed to-day, with a more than 30 death toll, was opened in 1967: 50 years ago.In it's life it had been subject of many maintenance works, maybe it was not well designed, but the problem is a money problem:The bridge is part of a privately managed highway (on State concession). You pay a toll for using this "autostrada", and every year the private owned Company ask for a toll increase, but the state approves it only if they have spent money in safety and maintence.The trick is simple: they own the Companies that make the maintenance work, so they spend a lot of money from one pocket, and put it in the other pocket.. The State allows for the toll's increase, and people pays...Was the work "state of the art"? It really does not matter.I, like Zucca, I'm very sad.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 07:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 14, 2018, 07:05:16 pmuse the space station as a life raft and abandon the shuttle?I seem to remember something about them adding remote control to the shuttle so that in the event of something similar they could park the astronauts at the space station and attempt to bring it down remotely

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 07:50:30 pm
content: The problem is that there probably are a lot of warnings made where nothing happened or will happen.The challenge is to sort/shift the real threats and dangers.Every life lost is one too many though.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 08:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on August 14, 2018, 02:11:17 pmI've thought about this a lot, and come to the conclusion that while people are around and doing stuff - building bridges, rockets etc, there will always be disasters.QuoteOf course, money represents resources, and resources are finite. Our desires are infinite. The real problem isopportunity cost. Yes, we could spend $1 billion on every bridge to make it totally safe, but then there will be 10 other bridges we can't afford to build.Given the underlying systemic factors, disasters are inevitable. Really, the only thing you can do is just get used to it.It was a disaster that lead to evolution of intelligent apes; in many ways change depends on catastrophic events.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 08:54:19 pm
content: Not as bad, but I know a few people got their arms and hands crushed because of a TV lift I was contract to design which I quoted on, I warned of the problem and they even knew about the issue and came specifically to me for my expertise to design a safety solution. They didn't want to pay me, they didn't want to add the 1$ of safety electronics on a 450$-750$ device, I even told them what to do if they didn't contract me because I wanted to look out for the small company, and guess what, exactly what they came to me to prevent happened in the field within a month or 2 of sales. Now, they are out of the business and they faced a few law suits.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 08:57:54 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on August 14, 2018, 08:41:50 pmThere will be disasters even if we don't build things or fly rockets. The cave we live in might collapse, an earthquake, a mud slide...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 10:09:41 pm
content: Hindsight always makes it easier to decide what we should have focused our efforts on too. It's easy to say after the fact that we should have done X, Y or Z, but given resources are limited it's impossible to fix everything that really ought to be fixed. Instead we have to make an educated guess prior to something happening.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 10:25:41 pm
content: I wonder if there were other close calls.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 11:16:59 pm
content: After every disaster you will find many people pointing out that they had predicted the problem and were ignored. In many cases they are correct. In almost as many cases the predictions were made in ignorance, just habitual nay saying. Those in decision making positions have the difficult task of deciding which Cassandras are fact based and worth listening to. They need to do this because there are always a few who will predict disaster for any activity. Listening to everyone would result in nothing happening.My interpretation of the Challenger analysis is not that managers should listen and respond to every warning, but that they had shifted their balance too far towards ignoring all warnings. They do need to listen to all warnings, evaluate credibility and respond appropriately.The Columbia case is more troubling. They could have done an inspection flyby and ISS crew would have been able to report the extent of the damage. Nothing has been reported about analysis of the possibility of returning to the ISS and sheltering after a negative report. Perhaps someone did an analysis and determined that there wasn't enough life support to keep them going until another shuttle could be launched (which would have had the same risk of damage to the tiles). Keeping them there until the problem was fixed was clearly impossible (it took many, many months as I remember). Similar analysis might have shown that Soviet launch and return capability wasn't enough to get them down (could only get two at a time down without depending on the not so reliable automatic docking system so it is many trips).

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 11:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 14, 2018, 10:09:41 pmas they say in aviation, “regulations are written in blood.”

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 12:53:17 am
content: What a strange bridge design, Morandi used pre-stressed concrete beams instead of cable stays. No wonder it required extra continuing maintenance.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 06:47:14 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 14, 2018, 11:16:59 pmBeen a long time ago but what I remember was that NASA could not afford any bad news or there would be bigger budget cuts.The problem is always do we stop a mission in order to higher the safety and add to the running costs or do we let it go.Spaceflight is a high risk venture, two shuttles lost on all those missions is how awfull it sounds not that bad. If you look how many normal unmanned rockets with satelites get scrapped halfway flight because something goes wrong...........

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 09:48:11 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 14, 2018, 07:02:16 pmThe reason they could not have done anything about the wing damage, was that the penny-pinchers had decided that mission didn't need any space suits on board. Not even one. Whereas if they'd had a suit and even a small patch kit for damage to the thermal tiles, they'd have been able to fix it. The damage was quite small.Here's someone else's rant about 'minimal safety factor engineering'. With photos at sourcehttp://82.221.129.208/.yg9.htmlbut that isn't a permalink.Quote

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 10:04:38 am
content: There is an entire wiki page with bridge failures.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failuresNot too long ago, a bridge (in progress) collapsed in Florida.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_International_University_pedestrian_bridge_collapse

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 10:51:17 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 14, 2018, 07:48:47 pmQuote from: CatalinaWOW on August 14, 2018, 11:16:59 pmSTS-107 was not an ISS mission, so it couldn't have returned there. It was a science mission in a lower orbit at a different inclination than the ISS. Going to the ISS was probably not an option fuel-wise, even if they wanted to.Even if they could, the 2003 ISS was set up for the existing crew of 3. Trying to make that life-support sustain an additional 7 people once the Columbias reserves were gone was probably not going to work for long.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 06:11:32 pm
content: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/08/the-age-of-precarious-infrastructure/567493/

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 06:31:27 pm
content: To Engineer Is Human: The role of failure in successful design by Petroski is a good read on this general subject.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 06:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on August 15, 2018, 10:51:17 amEven more, Columbia was too heavy to get to the ISS which it why it never went there nor was fitted with the necessary docking hardware. (Never mind that the ISS did have to dip down for the higher performance shuttles which took some planning.)The commission did identify a rescue mission with Atlanta as just about being possible though.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 07:36:31 pm
content: Again they're saying the Genoa Morandi bridge failed due to engineering. Blame the engineers- not the politicians, not the neglect, not the maintenance company etc."And two years ago, Antonio Brencich, a professor of engineering at the University of Genoa, said in an interview with the broadcaster Primocanale, “the Morandi Bridge is a failure of engineering.”"It was affected by extremely serious corrosion problems linked to the technology that was used (in construction).  Morandi wanted to use a technology that he had patented that was no longer used afterwards and that showed itself to be a failure," said Brencich to Radio Capitale.The bridge may have been impossible to maintain. There's not much you can do for rebar, besides cathodic protection, to slow corrosion.But a 50 year lifetime for a concrete bridge?

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 07:55:04 pm
content: Isn't that indeed an engineering failure?

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 09:14:37 pm
content: Zucca, please: we shouldn't make speculations now that some bodies are still buried.Other than we do not have civil engineering experience, you should take in big consideration that asingleengineer opinion, a university professor, is much different frommultipleand active Nasa engineers opinions.The man you mentioned didn't specify the single point of failure in his post (the opposite to what the Nasa's engineers had always done) but has simply wanted to put the entire bridge and his engineer in a bad light, telling only that the entire site "should be rebuilt", and that "his calculations weren't correct", arguing about some difficulties during the construction.But the most disgusting thing is that hejust rantoday to be phisically on the spot, right 15 hours later next to the accident site, to be interviewed by the news and tell that he knew that will happened: I cannot avoid to see in this behavior the willingness to show off deliberately and I cannot accept this while bodies are still under the concrete.He doesn't deserve the attention the media are giving to him and the victims does not deserve this kind of disrespect.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 10:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on August 15, 2018, 07:55:04 pmthe short lifetime of the bridge is engineering failure, not fixing it when it is know that it is an engineering failure is a political failure

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 09:13:09 am
content: a dutch bridge "expert" yesterday said that these so called "cable-stayed bridges" (if I translated it correct from dutch that is) before half 80's were always designed with a single cable/concrete because they could not calculate the strength of multiple cables before that. They were manually calculated.With the arrival of the PC in the 80s this changed and all bridges from that time forward had multiple cables.The reason is that a single cable stayed bridge is very volatile due to the single point of failure.If the cable weakens and breaks the pilon gets unbalanced and unstable as well.The unbalanced force from the other "cable" sides will let it break down (as we have seen here).With a multiple cable bridge, if one cable breaks the other cables are calculated to take the strength till the other cable is repaired again.This is according to him well known and all single cable bridges in the Netherlands are under extreme quality control for failures due to this.They actually should be replaced in the coming decades.Italy has many of these bridges so he said they have a huge challenge for the coming years.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 09:49:03 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 15, 2018, 07:36:31 pmWell, it is an engineering problem if it was miscalculated. The media could also conflate and call it "engineering" if the bridge had in fact building problems (materials, procedures, etc.) - they would still be on the shoulders of the responsible engineer, although the building company would have its large share of guilt as well.IMO you could blame politicians only if they did not take the action (or were not convinced by other technical committees) to allocate the resources for repair, lined their pockets with the allocated money or simply awarded the maintenance contract to an incompetent company (the one who gave the most kickback).If theNYTis to be believed (I didn't read other sources), it seems the bridge was crumbling partially in bits and pieces - something that happens in several older bridges in cities in the US as well and could be blamed on everyone, really (either a shoddy design or building or lack of proper resource allocation).

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 09:54:00 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 16, 2018, 09:49:03 amIt was calculated correctly or it would have failed earlier.The corrossion was not taken into account which are new insights that are gathered over time.When the corrossion was detected and no action was taken that is where the problem is.If there was no possibility to repair the bridge to its standards then they should have replaced it.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 11:50:32 am
content: Fair enough; I posted before looking into the history of the whole thing. 50 years is quite a long time.

author: besauk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 01:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 14, 2018, 11:16:59 pmPerhaps even more troubling is that the root cause was apparently known for many missions prior to the final one - the reformulated (Freon-free) foam on the external fuel tank had caused a marked increase in damage to the insulating tiles, as far back as missions in late 1997 - some 5 years earlier. Sad to say to some engineers must have succumbed to this politically correct foam nonsense and not stood up as they should have. Disturbing that what had once been a premiere engineering jewel got turned into a place where the overall culture no longer espoused engineering excellence above all.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 02:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 15, 2018, 10:04:23 pmThe politicians were engineered into a corner and they did not want to pay to get out of it. Now they pay a big price for their failure to act.We know of many such situations and there will still be no action.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 03:08:06 pm
content: I get sick looking at that. This is the species that should spread to the stars?

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 03:23:52 pm
content: I do not understand comparing the failure of this bridge to any complex space craft failure. The level of safety analysis is totally different. The fault tree for a space shuttle is a mega document, for this bridge, insignificant.There have been other bridge collapse in recent years either from incorrect maintenance, or build errors.The one I remember was the Interstate 35W bridge in Minneapolis Minnesota USA. This failure happened in 2007;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridgeThere are many documented in a wiki article. Filter those caused by external cause vs. structural failure:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failuresI would be concerned if the Mafia was involved in short changing the quality of the concrete during its construction. I don't hear that as a possible reason, only that the current maintenance company is being held liable. Even without a mafia, contractors and sub-contractors can mess with concrete quality, as well the failure of the government engineers to inspect, and be on the job every moment, taking samples independent of the contractor. And then actually testing them for compression failure strength at the 30 day cure time.In my ignorant view only seeing photos on TV and internet, the concrete appears to have failed in compression. (it falling down is a big hint to this failureBut seeing how it separated into pieces as if the steel rebar was not made to be contiguous, indicates a construction flaw, I would have to see the ends of the rebar to determine if they failed under tension, or if they are intact). If there is no salt or other corrosive material used on the bridge, concrete that is properly made gets stronger with age. My memory is of an asymptotic curve where it reaches final strength at 40 years or more.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 03:51:44 pm
content: We have also one bridge collapse some time ago (thankfully no deaths)And few week after they started to close one bridge by one and repairing everywhere even take some down a building new ones, now is every second road closed and you cant get anywhere but hope it will be safe for some timeIs is common as you see bridge as something for ages, huge and stable monument what will be here for generations even with no maintenanceAfter disaster everyone wake up and catch up all maintenance neglected for decades

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 04:03:15 pm
content: I say that it is extremely comfortable to just blame the contractors/mafia/politicians in this case, since the original designers and engineers are in my opinion to blame here...It is quite easy to see that the bridge design had several major flaws:1) The bridge has very few stays, four for each pylon (one for each of the side of the road for each side of the pylon), while in a perfect world this is enough, in the real world, it is very dangerous since there is no redundancy at all. In fact in the 90' on the other side of the bridge one of the stays was reinforced with steel reinforcements since it could not be replaced2) the stays are made of reinforced concrete, even with steel reinforcement this material is not ideal for almost pure tension loadsmost of the cable stayed bridged in fact have a very different structures that adress these two weaknesses1) they have a lot of stays for each tower, this provides greater redundancy, since in case of failure of one or two stays the other can still support the bridge safely, this allows also the entire replacement of a damaged stay (there is no need for bolt on reinforcing)2) the stays are universally made of steel, since this material is much less shitty in tension compared to concreteSo while I'm almost sure that with better monitoring/maintenance this tragedy could be avoided we have to be onest and recognise also the failure of the engineers who ultimately green lit the project without recognising/adressing there faults

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 04:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: besauk on August 16, 2018, 01:11:28 pmExcept the piece that broke off and damaged the RCC panel wasn't made with the reformulated foam.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 05:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: ignator on August 16, 2018, 03:23:52 pmWe noticed.My point is that some people think building a SPACE ELEVATOR is just a question of buying the right epoxy at Home Depot.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 06:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 16, 2018, 09:54:00 amAgreed. In the Netherlands bridges get inspected regulary and during the past few years quite a few bridges have been closed for heavy traffic in order to repair the bridges. New insights probably led to a different method of inspecting which brought up lurking problems.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 07:27:46 pm
content: You need zero qualifications to be a manager or politician. Any background will do.At some point engineers need to stop being the fall guy for these large failures- where the engineers were starved of time, money, resources to do a good job, and the bridge comes crashing down.

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 09:43:57 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on August 16, 2018, 05:10:40 pmYou dont have a point. Nobody said anything about a space elevator. Please go back to your thread and troll the ever-living-shit out of people there or maybe do something better with your time on this mortal plane as you suggested yourself.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 07:18:18 am
content: Aparking garagecollapsed last year. It was not finished yet, but it shed some light on poor practices, resulting in the reclassification ofsome buildings.Forcing the price down causes safety inflation.And you know what it said: "if you don't plan maintenance, the equipment plans it for you".Now they have to build a new bridge, several years downtime and negative economic effect, what would be more expensive? Maintenance or New bridge?

author: Eka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 07:30:58 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on August 17, 2018, 07:18:18 amMaintenance, meh. New bridges are big sexy projects that employ lots of people.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 07:41:54 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on August 17, 2018, 07:18:18 amThere is never enough time to build something properly. But there is always enough time to start building it again.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 08:27:14 am
content: Quote from: RandallMcRee on August 14, 2018, 04:59:18 pmWe are currently governed by two parties, the greens that feed on fear oflazy napoletansalbaniansromaniansromsmigrants from africa (seriously, not many years ago their ads showed a redskin with the caption "they accepted immigration, now they live in reservations") and the yellows feed on ignorance. Dismiss experts because they are payed by the big companies, their experts are the right ones. alternative medicine. alternative science (luckily the greens are more rational types and are saying no to most of their bullshit but still...)Our prime minister (supposedly an attorney, he also declared himself attorney of the italian people after he was chosen) said in an interview that we can't wait for the justice system to make an investigation, as it would take too much time. wow.actions must be taken now, before there is even an hint of an investigation say the two vice-prime ministers (the actual prime ministers). that made me even more sick that when they usually talk. the yellow bufoon is the minister for work, he never had a real job in his life before becoming a politician.Finger crossing that they will collapse on themselves before they do too much damage. That's enough politics for the day for me.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 09:27:05 am
content: Politics has changed dramatically since 40 years. Before the politicians were making multiple years strategies for the country, trying to set the roadmap where to go. Nowadays they need to respond on day to day media-fires within 24hrs show their face when needed and have an answer ready.So I don't blame them for saying they are taking actions because if they did :- good investigation into this accident and wait for the results- shut down all similar constructed bridges and investigate their conditionetc. etc. your economy and store-supplies would have a severe impact, not too mention panic and other side effects.It is a very lousy problem to have on your plate IMO, there is no good quick fix or solution to deal with it.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 01:05:37 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 16, 2018, 07:27:46 pmExactly the problem in this case, the politicians in charge have zero qualifications for what they are in charge for. Not an issue if they actually listen to actual experts (as opposed to fake ones employed as consultant 'yes men')A bricklayer could do a better job.Now if the laws were written justly, the politican who refuse to pay for a new bridge would be in Jail right now, and rightly so.If an engineer declares a bridge to be at the end of it's life and unstafe, the money for a replacement should be automatically robbed from the budget. To hell with waiting months/years for politicians to decide.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 01:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on August 17, 2018, 01:05:37 pmPerhaps you should get the facts straight.What I read today is that They have outsourced the maintenance of roads and bridges incl this one to a private organisation over ten years ago that gets funding from public tollways raising billions of euros each year.That company is now under investigation if they invested that money in the roads/bridges or used it to grow (mergers and takeovers). The company is owned by the Benneton family. The company claims to have done all inspections and found no shortcomings. So this is going to be an interesting case for the investigators and I hope they turn everything up and down to find the thruth.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 02:01:00 pm
content: To me it's clear that an engineer did not his job properly.I posted here just because I think as engineers sometime we forgot how important our role in the society is and how devastating could be our mistakes.That bridge reminds me I have to do my job well.I didn't want to speculate or to lack in respect, nor to compare NASA with a bridge.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 02:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on August 17, 2018, 02:01:00 pmEngineers are almost powerless in the real world. Don't you think the engineers made the right design for the bridge? How can the engineer control how the materials will be replaced with inferior ones when the system is corrupt?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 03:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on August 17, 2018, 02:01:00 pmIEEE code of ethicshttps://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 05:16:54 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt onTodayat 10:32:27 am>IEEE code of ethicshttps://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.htmlBut these are not EEs, but CEs that design structures. They may have a code of ethics, but in the end they are boxed in by their employer, and in this case it is a government.A bigger issue is this is all government run, and as other posters have stated politicians are not qualified to do anything.There are photos showing the state of disrepair.It will be easy to blame the subcontractor that was maintaining this bridge, but they were not paid to rebuild the bridge from the ground up, and it's looking that was the problem with 60 years of aging. I know this failure is not the only one from infrastructure rot, and it will not be the last one. And it's not limited to any country.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 06:21:51 pm
content: They are looking at blaming the Morandi bridge failure on bad engineering, that one tendon failure would cause a collapse. There was no redundancy and it used rods instead of cables.It would be best - the politicians, maintenance company, all absolved /sAutostrade per l'Italiatoll revenueis € 796m last quarter, leaving € 539m gross profit. Sound like a cash cow to me at € 8.4m/day tolls.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 08:02:33 pm
content: If you drive over and around the bridge using Google Maps you can see that most of the north side of the bridge was being worked on or looked like it. Also interesting is the fact that the cable stays were boxed with a rectangular covering but on one section of the bridge the box is removed and the cables visible. Also noteworthy is that I did not see a single worker working on it.Brian

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 10:05:24 pm
content: There's a good chance the maintenance crew made a mistake.I'm curious if the rain storm aggravated the failure. Politician: "it was struck by lightning!"Remember theTacoma Narrows bridge 1940 collapse.All engineer's iron rings are apparently made of that steel, so we are cloaked in failure lol.It was a resonance in the structure excited by vortex shedding. Q was high with equal-spaced pylons, the structure oscillated and collapsed. This Morani bridge might have been wobbling.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 10:45:55 pm
content: There are a lot of bridges in the world, and failures of various types happen regularly. This one is just the news of the moment, and will fade from the world news fairly quickly, just like all the others. It'll be local news much longer, since the cleanup/replacement/infrastructure issues are in plain sight.Here's a list that already includes this latest incident:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failures

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2018, 10:58:13 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 17, 2018, 10:05:24 pmNo, that was the Quebec Bridge:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridgehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 01:24:12 am
content: Quote from: floobydust onTodayat 05:05:24 pmRemember theTacoma Narrows bridge 1940 collapse.All engineer's iron rings are apparently made of that steel, so we are cloaked in failure lol.It was a resonance in the structure excited by vortex shedding. Q was high with equal-spaced pylons, the structure oscillated and collapsed. This Morani bridge might have been wobbling.A documentary on this bridge indicated that at the time, architects were in a design 'competition' to make bridge support and decking to be as thin as possible. This prevented rigidity to wind load. As well made an airfoil, all this enabled it to go into oscillation.If you look at any failure analysis, after the catastrophic event occurred, you find a fault scenario that was not thought of. Or the fault was assumed to be remote in possibility.In this case, the obvious failure of concrete, that does not last forever.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 01:36:08 am
content: QuoteTo overgeneralize, good engineers are not necessarily good salespeople. The guy that is more persuasive is often the guy who the decision maker is going to listen to. A competent engineer can explain things to a very successful businessman/politician, and in some cases they might as well be talking to a wall. No matter how many times you tell them they can't do it this way, no matter how much details you go into the why, it doesn't matter. If there's a credible and persuasive guy that says "Yeah, no problem; done in a week," they will believe it. There's nothing the engineer can do beyond that.i see this over and over. Be afraid of the company that says "yes, no problem" to everything you ask. Empty promises are easy to make, and money changed hands is difficult to get back.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 04:54:12 am
content: Corporations value profit above all else, not safety. Though you will get written up for not wearing a hard hatI've walked out of a few jobs where I was pushed to fake/ignore safety on products in order to get them to market ASAP.I've had engineering managers that are PhD's, MSc's, P.Eng's, tech's, and nobodies other than being with a company for say 15 years ground up, from ditch digger to CEO.Their values are mostly about getting that bonus, pleasing the exec, not spending money, pushing the schedule etc.Anyone can be an "engineering manager" and when I butt heads against "doing it right" verses "maximum profit as quickly as possible", I haven't found a way to not cause a shitstorm. If anyone has an option, love to hear it.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 08:53:48 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 18, 2018, 04:54:12 amIf a safety issue was ignored by a company they should not only financially penalize them, they should personally hold those people accountable and put them in jail.That is the only way you can hold organisations responsible by hurting the people themselves.Now if an engineer reports such a safety violation to his supervisor make it official. Sent an email and keep the copy. If the supervisor does not respond sent it again. Don't take a non official response as an answer (like he walks in and tells you to ignore it). Ask for an email or written response.That way you have done what you could unless it is so serious it is a public hazzard, in that case you might want to leak it to the press and start finding a new job. This is more easily said than done, in many companies there is still a "stay in line or get out" mentality even on these issues and till now most whistleblowers get an unfair treatment ending their careers because other companies also don't want to hire them. This should change asap IMO. If you work for a company you ARE the company and each employee is responsible just as much as it was a one man organization.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 01:00:25 pm
content: I just saw this in the newspaperIt seems it is not an isolated incident but more a structural collapse of badly maintained infrastructure throughout the country.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 04:54:59 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 18, 2018, 08:53:48 amIn Canada it works that way due to a mining disaster:https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/legisl/billc45.htmlI remember that a few months ago this was used to convict those responsible in a case where an unguarded conveyor belt led to a horrific death.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 10:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 18, 2018, 01:00:25 pmIt is just speculation.We're not civil engineers here.And noone should correlate just 2 data and reach a conclusion.Even without a degree in civil engineering it's clear that picture did not take in consideration many tecnical aspects:- the size of the bridges- the type of the bridges (girder, cantilever, suspended, arch, cable-stayed etc.)- the construction material of the bridges (steel, concrete etc.)- how many earthquakes have occurred over the years where the bridges are placed and how much energy the bridges received- the year of construction of the involved bridges (to relate the badly manteinance to aging)- how many bridges we have in the country that are still in place (to understand if there is huge issue or just single events)- who is responsible for maintenance of the bridges (to understand if there is a common cause, not all bridges are inspected by government representatives)- how much bridges collapse in the rest of the world (to compare accidents)-and probably many other things that, without at least a degree in civil engineering, we are not considering.So journalists and newspapers should just tell what happened and not provide any data to force people to reach a conclusion, which should be left only to the experts in the field.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 12:05:43 am
content: Call in the engineers! After the collapse, now the politicians and media are willing to listen.Failing after 51 years, it would be very hard to blame the engineering. Mr. Rust is probably at fault."A jumble of public, private, local, regional and national agencies operate and maintain the country’s highways, bridges, viaducts and tunnels with little oversight — a system so fragmented that it is sometimes unclear who is responsible for a tract of road or a bridge. ""This is a general problem in Italy,” said Andrea Del Grosso, a professor emeritus in engineering at the University of Genoa. “It’s always hard to make decisions, so projects drag on for decades, costs inflate, and when they decide to do them, it’s usually too late.”NYT articleItaly hasmassive government debt#4 in the world below Greece, Japan, Lebanon.Don't really have money to replace the old bridges.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 12:39:37 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 19, 2018, 12:05:43 amAutostrada is the company owning and maintaining the toll highway network. A quick check shows that Autostrada profit hovers around a billion euro a year. This isn't a matter of not having the money. It seems to be matter of maximizing profits too much. I understand that a billion euro evaporates quickly when large civil engineering projects are involved, but there certainly is cash at hand.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 05:28:29 am
content: QuoteUSA: Hold my beer.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 05:47:02 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2018, 12:39:37 amAutostrade 2017 financials2017 Group’s net debt at 31 December 2017 totals €9,351mWow, almost €10 billion in debt? That's some kind of money shell game. Caviar for the Benettons is expensive.

author: Eka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 06:51:44 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 18, 2018, 08:53:48 amYou write it in ink into your own personal bound engineering journal where you keep all your notes of what you did, etc. I have my own journals of what I was doing, results, etc going back to the '70s, and I'm not even an engineer. I just have some as mentors back then. They got me in the habit. They also provided excellent notes for how I took various photographs. Make sure you sign and date the pages. The journals should be a bound notebook with the pages sewn in. Being bound, written in ink, dated and signed makes it legally admissible evidence in US courts, and likely many other countries. Entering notes of all you do, calls you make, topics of conversations with whom, notes about correspondence, topics of that correspondence, shopping lists for the SO, etc makes is very hard to call into question the veracity engineering notebooks.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 07:50:21 am
content: Wow that is very thorough documentation. I wonder what field of work you were in.

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 09:09:44 am
content: Quote from: raptor1956 on August 17, 2018, 08:02:33 pmThat is not a removed covering, but these are additional cables that were added during a renovation in the 1990s. The original cables are cast into concrete, not removable.If one is interested on how these bridges were built, there is a nice video (in German though) about the construction of a bridge in Venzuela (Maracaibo) 1959 which has an almost 100% identical design, except that the cables are not cast into concrete.http://www.bauforum24.tv/bilfinger-berger-maracaibo-bruecke-1962-121/

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 04:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on August 18, 2018, 10:11:23 pmWell here are your engineering experts at word and I have dozens other articles that come to the same conclusion, but lets wait on the official report.QuoteQuotehttps://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/08/15/ingenieurs-italie-moet-honderden-bruggen-en-tunnels-vervangen-a1613174

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 06:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 19, 2018, 04:06:44 pm-"I have dozens other articles":newspapers copy news from each other and spread it all over the world. Many times they doesn't even check the veracity of the news because they trust each other. It may seems dozen of different opinions but it's only one news.-"engineering experts":after every tragedy, you find many "experts" coming out ready to tell what's gone wrong just without an investigation or just by looking at google maps pictures (and this let you understand what kind of "experts" they are). I don't think you can do a diagnose without even an investigation.-"That is the conclusion of engineers and architects". They are NOT our engineer experts. European newspapers simply listened our local news where two jackals in search of visibility have exposed their opinions and after that they reached a conclusion and posted it;here I have not heard anyone so fool to declare that he reached a conclusion, even before the technical investigation begins. Also because "Autostrade per l'Italia" company would certainly sue him because is deliberately accusing them.- geologist Mario Tozzi is a gelogist but is mostly a TV host and for me it's only looking for visibility.I can confidently say this because hedeclaredthat he prefer cunnilingus to fellatio to a local radio news. These are things that are said only to catch attention. These are not things that a man of science declares publicly.Quote from: Kjelt on August 19, 2018, 04:06:44 pmI agree.To make you understand my point of view, suppose a serious electronic failure on a control panel occurred in the subway and because of this many people lost their lives. What would you say here if some "experts" without any electronic degree or training would confidently state what caused the problem, mostly without even having the advice in hand and the tools to be able to inspect it? Or what would you think of a real expert who just declares what happened without even having inspected the board?

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 07:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: TassiloH on August 19, 2018, 09:09:44 amInteresting ... so if there were issues related to the integrity of the bridge with respect to the cables before, requiring the addition of new cables, then that would surely make the cables highly suspect as the cause of the failure.Brian

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 07:18:39 pm
content: Are engineers to be silent?After the FIU Miami pedestrian bridge collapse: "Ron Sachs, a spokesman for FIGG, provided the following statement:"It is a breach of widely held professional standards of ethics for any engineer to judge or speculate on any aspect of a construction accident unless they have complete knowledge of all the facts, which include construction, materials, design, and other factors, and are highly experienced in bridge design."https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article212571434.htmlI don't agree, at all.A community of engineers looks at these disasters and discusses them (on other forums). They speculate and calculate, share wisdom and observations, photos, and narrow down the cause. It also prevents "final reports" from being laced with politics and ass covering.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 07:26:12 pm
content: The Morani bridge uses concrete-encased steel rods (tendons) instead of cables for the stays.The concrete ended up trapping water and causing more (rod) corrosion, and making inspection near impossible.The pylon that failed did not get the 1993 upgrade where a bundle of cables were added around the original rod, and bolt-on steel added.Morani bridge pics

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 07:32:10 pm
content: They tried to run NASA like a business because the shuttle was sold on the fact it was a lower cost alternative to rockets. In reality it costs 10 times more and probably held us back from 10 years using the new spaceX type rockets we see today.They were warned about the foam that brought down discovery too.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 07:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on August 19, 2018, 06:26:46 pmIt is worse in your hypothetical case it would have been 10 control panels failing in 4 years, and even non-experts would say it would be wise to inspect all panels for design flaws or fatique or whatever might cause these panels to fail.As the picture showed it is not a single event, it is a series of bridge and overpasses collapsing in the last years.Some might be accidental for instance due to an earthquake yes, but still this many indicates a very serious situation even for non-experts that something is terribly wrong since in other countries the number of failures on these infrastructural constructions is way, way less.If in our country more than 2 bridges would have collapsed in the last two years we had a major government crisis.We shut down a bridge because there was a very minor risk something might happen and all traffic had to drive around to another bridge.Although I agree to wait till the end report to definitly have the answer I would like to see that there is action taken to check the inspections of all the bridges and overpasses asap and in doubt take action to for instance limit the traffic from 2x2 roads to 1x1 to half the traffic. But you would rather do nothing, wait two years for a final report and in the meanwhile other bridges might collapse and innocent people die ?

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 09:07:16 pm
content: QuoteI'm not saying that we should do nothing until the final report and let other people die. Never stated that. Maybe my english is not perfect.My posts on this thread areonlyto show my disagreement on how non-experts come to technical conclusions and on tv jackals.I am disputing the way some people reach a technical conclusion on a field without a degree or experience in that field AND how much is disgusting for me that Mr. Brencich went to the scene of the tragedy, just 15 hours after the collapse,with the people still under the rubble, just to be interviewed by the newscasts and say that he had warned that the bridge was faulty since its first day.QuoteIndeed. It is certainly wise and prudent to start a global check of the country bridges and to take all the necessary measures in order to minimize future collapse riskswhile the final report arrives,and that is indeed what they are doing right now.Another Morandi bridge was closed to be checked just yesterday for example.But after the recurrence of an accident, any ordinary person or someone without a degree or expertise in that field can say that something is wrong and that they "should check".What that category of people can't tell iswhatthey have to check andwhatis the cause of the fail.I can say "for me it's gone in this way", but I'm noone in that field: only a team of engineering graduates with experience and many hours of on site and laboratory investigations will find the true, because this things can be assessed only by them, with science.Instead I read a lot of opinions from ordinary people, who (for example) do not have the slightest idea of what the dynamic stresses are, saying confidently that "things have definitely gone like this". These things make me angry, it's speculation.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 09:38:18 pm
content: Ok than I misunderstood you and I do agree with your points.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 09:19:58 am
content: You're welcome.And, just about jackals: Antonio Brencich made so much noise thatwas appointedas "expert member" of the government investigation team. Now we will even pay his fee.This is disgusting.EDIT: A. Brencich wrote in 2016 that the bridge was defective. AND... is one of the people who signed the bridge status report in February 2018. This report stated that the cables were corroded by 20%. But he, along with others, has signed a document declaring"as already noted, the experimental investigations and the monitoring system appear complete and very detailed". No one in that meeting thought it was necessary to warn of the risks, instead the document concluded"Overall, the executive project examined appears well written and complete in every detail, the same is studied in a methodologically impeccable way".It seems to me bipolarism to say that the bridge is badly built and then sign a document where it says that, after all, even if there are signs of wear, everything is ok.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 10:07:38 am
content: Yes well there are more things happening in Italy that I as a more northern person don't understandBeautifull country, hope that things get more "organised" in the near future.

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2018, 02:42:23 am
content: This just popped up in my youtube suggested video's:

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2019, 03:30:00 am
content: They demolished the rest of the Morandi bridge

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2019, 07:46:09 pm
content: The thing I see here is that all of these benefit from hindsight. I wonder how many projects had engineers and other "experts" warning of dire consequences then went on to perform just as designed without any of these dire things ever happening? It's easy to say "this guy warning about this bad thing and then he was ignored and people died" but you don't know how often someone warned about something that was not actually an issue and nobody died.

author: bloguetronica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2019, 09:46:15 pm
content: I wonder if the Columbia disaster could not be averted, not by trying to fix the ship, but by trying to rescue the cosmonauts. But I might be talking about sufficient knowledge.It would be expensive, for sure, but human life is invaluable, and worth of any effort to save it. At least they should cancel the landing and think of another plan. NASA had days to analyze the launch footage, which is a thing that should be analyze always, at every launch, and not in the sequence of a tragedy.Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2019, 10:53:48 pm
content: Now that the bridge has been demolished, Italian Police released new (original) collapse video footage.The bridge engineer Morani warned 40 years ago the corrosion rate was much higher than anticipated, either from acid rain and the nearby steel plant pollution, or sea mist. He recommended higher maintenance and epoxy coating.Autostrade per l’Italia had the maintenance contract, they reinforced one set of cable stays but the bridge was in very sad shape and it was another that snapped.Autostrade makes$10M USD per dayon roadway and bridge tolls.Here, it's greed and politics that failed to maintain the bridge and killed 43 people.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2019, 11:05:46 pm
content: Quote from: bloguetronica on July 04, 2019, 09:46:15 pmAstronaut and cosmonaut are the same profession, but in English the word cosmonaut is usually specific to USSR/Russian personnel. The Columbia had six Americans and one Israeli on it.The subject of whether the Columbia crew could have been rescued prior to their life-support running out has been written about extensively, so I will leave the googling to you. Bottom line is there were no good options, even if they had been able to determine the shuttle was damaged, which they really couldn't determine.As for the value of human life, the principle is easy to state, but reality is another matter. You don't have to look for space-related accidents to find people dying for lack of basic necessities.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 12:00:49 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on July 04, 2019, 10:53:48 pmYou have to be careful in recommending epoxy coated steel encased in concrete. It is not the wonder anti-corrosion coating that people (including myself) thought it was.I have epoxy coated rebar lying in my yard experiencing the weather over multiple years with practically no rust so I thought I would use it in my next pour, but then youtube suggested I view this:

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 12:20:26 am
content: Quote from: bloguetronica on July 04, 2019, 09:46:15 pmSome lives are more valuable than others.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 12:55:14 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on July 05, 2019, 12:00:49 amI kind of feel that way about automotive undercoating. On multiple different cars I've noticed a small blister in the undercoat then started pecking at it and realized there's a hole several inches around rotted out of the floor pan. It seems what happens is moisture finds its way between the sheetmetal and the rubbery undercoat where it sits there hidden rusting away. The stuff probably helps in places where they use that horrid salt on the roads and cars only last 10 years anyway but elsewhere I suspect it causes more harm than good.