Hiring a versatile person challenge - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 09:32:53 pm
content: I have started, built, and sold a few small businesses in my career. Nothing huge, but enough to know that I will never have a large staff for my various endeavors.The persistent challenge is to deal with the reality that I cannot hire highly specialized people since there is never enough work for a dedicated task. The need is usually for people that are interested, willing, and capable of wearing whatever hat they need to wear to get through the day. Over a 20 year time period, I have come across some gems, but of course they are rare. My current business is substantially different than the previous and I am trying to figure out where to look. This job is truly a catch-all that will span from setting up and operation of pick & place machine to organizing the lab and taking the trash out. Literally anything.General job desription:Be good at learning - if you cannot learn or do not like learning, you will be useless.Any electronics assembly experience - including hobby type projectsHand soldering SMDorganizing parts and assembly setupsorganizing parts and assembly setupsComputer proficient - meaning actual, practical skills in Windows and Linux. Data management/organization (ie don't save everything to your desktop), networking, basic configuration, repair, troubleshooting.Python, C, LabView skills are a huge bonus. Better than average Excel skills.Good mechanical skills since we design, test, and assemble precision mechanical parts and systems. Many of these skills cannot be taught, they are skills that the person has to be interested in enough to figure it out on their own.Must be organized (very organized). Bonus points for any photography, video, media, social media chops to help with various marketing efforts.I was thinking of joining some local clubs that do robotics, electronics, programming, HAM etc to meet people. We are in Los Angeles area so there are a LOT of people, but I don't know a single potential applicant after 10 years here. A general all-call for resumes is like finding a needle in a Everest size haystack.Anyone have some suggestions? Probably a younger person, but not necessarily. Pay is very competitive based on demonstrated skills and how much time I have to spend to get them productive.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 09:50:11 pm
content: Carlos, first put an ad here with a link to this discussion.:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/jobs/Either end of the age spectrum is likely where you'll find your best candidate. Young....you'll have the opportunity to mold them to your needs and given the chance to grow could serve you well for decades.Older....unless passionate like ourselves, might it be just another job in their career ?

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 10:13:53 pm
content: My suggestion involves a cloning machine, and if you come accross one , I need to borrow it.A pessimist would say you have a better chance coming across a cloning machineThe idea of looking into clubs is a good one. Not fast, but good.Best of luck.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 10:26:01 pm
content: Here is a more optimistic suggestion.The suggestion below comes as a result of a long story, which I'm not gonna share in print or in public but here it is:Post a job for the bare, non-exciting minimum part of the job. "With room for advancement".The perfect candidate's resume will stand out like a tube among transistors.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 10:30:13 pm
content: Out of school. Preferably get them as they are last year in school (otherwise they get snatched quickly by Intel and TI and Apple).That is where we found people like this and they are rare. (another way is to troll people networks - people like this may have friends or know of others like them).

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 10:33:55 pm
content: Sounds like what my old industrial automation hang out place in uni used to clone.Edit. I forgot the smiler.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 10:36:34 pm
content: I don't know about so-cal - but in the sf bay area, you should be able to find lots of people who can do most of what you are looking for.have you thought about moving up here?your chances would be better, for that jack of all trades kind of person.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 10:39:30 pm
content: There are some people that hate a variety job and want to be focused on something specific. Others (like me) will go crazy if they do the same thing all the time.The wording, if not done well, can scare off some of the best options if it sounds mundane or a false promise of advancement opportunities.The ideal person would be one that stays after hours to make things for themselves. Machine a part, make a PCB. At least all the toys will be available. 'Normal' jobs usually don't allow employees to fiddle after hours to learn something.Sent from my horrible mobile....

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 10:40:48 pm
content: Unfortunately, bay area is not possible with my complicated kids / ex-spouse situation.Sent from my horrible mobile....

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2017, 11:56:29 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on February 22, 2017, 10:13:53 pmCloning could create some HR issues like the same person applying for insurance, taxes, etc. Better keep that option in it's box.As for local clubs - I know of none in the area. A google search has not yet revealed much - but the effort was minimal so far. The good news is that I have time to look, no emergency so I can be careful and picky.Any So-cal EEVbloggers know of any clubs that meet up? Maker spaces maybe?

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 02:24:37 am
content: Man, I would love to have a job like that. Shame I'm thousands of miles away on another continent.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 10:12:28 am
content: I would kill for a job like that. (In fact I am looking for a job like that now, since my RSI problems mean I cannot have a desk job where I'm just sitting at a computer all day long.)Around no here job listings are always super laser focused on a particular job, and they won't even look at your resume if you don't have a formal education in that specific laser focused specialization...

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 07:32:19 pm
content: @rx8pilot:You'll find these kind of people all over the world.But your original post hints at what might be the problem.You write a lengthy post about about what YOU need, but you offer nothing (except "competitive pay").Perhaps you should think about what might attract people to your job.Pay, flexible working time, advancement possibilities, benefits, health insurance, empowerment, responsibility, the list is infinite.Go from there, the right person will turn up if you try to put yourself in his/her place. Employer/employee relationship is a give-and-take relationship. The Walmart way won't work.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 07:59:42 pm
content: Great points @Benta.I'd be thinking about how you and the employee would fit together as a team - e.g. you want someone who is super-organised. Is it because you are disorganised and need someone to compliment you? Or is it because you are super organised and want someone who is the same as you?Do you want someone who will turn up on time every day? What about someone who will work all night when you really need it to meet a deadline? Those two traits might not come together.Perhaps the Myers Briggs personality tests might be useful. I've never used them in a work environment but perhaps others have.https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on February 23, 2017, 07:32:19 pmTotally.The goal of this thread is not to be a job offer, but rather a discussion of exactly what you pointed out - how can I be attractive to the right people? If I looked back into my history, the two best people I ever had the pleasure of working with were total flukes.The first one, had just moved into town and literally picked up a phone book and cold called various places that seemed interesting. I wasn't even looking at the time, but met with him and hired him the next day. He turned out to be so pivotal - he earned a piece of the sale price when I sold the business. Total rock star that came out of thin air.The next one, was working a night shift near-by and saw that I was in the CNC shop late at night. He asked if I was looking for any new people and I responded that I only have an entry level position that I could offer, but during the day.Both of these people had a built in interest to learn things and solve problems. I initially only offered a modest paycheck, but access to detailed training, equipment, software, business management, etc, etc. Both of them took the opportunity and moved vertically quickly, becoming indispensable.For the 'intentional' hires over the years I managed to find mainly people that simply needed a job and were not so interested in moving up. Everyone wants a raise, few are interested in earning a raise of course. Agencies have provided the worst applicants. Job sites like Monster were somewhat better, but creates an enormously time consuming effort dealing with the noise.Does it not make sense to spell out what the business needs first, find a person that has some level of fit, and then start sorting out what we can offer? For a sharply defined job at a larger company - the pay, benefits, schedule, etc are more known. In a very small business, it is very dynamic and risky to promise too much. I spoke with a friend last night that started with a new company a couple of years ago. They made all sorts of promises that the business could not support. It was not deception, the owners simply expected the business to do better and offer more to him. Needless to say, he is frustrated and looking to leave.With all that said:In general, I rarely keep a regular schedule and have rarely needed employees to keep regular hours either. If they want to avoid traffic - come in at 10A. If they have a kid in school, go pick them up. We have a couple of hot times of the year where vacations are discouraged - but other than that, the schedule is flexible. Need Monday off? Make it up on Saturday. I keep snacks and coffee available and regularly provide lunch. I spend a LOT of my time offering paid skill building training, but expect some off-line effort to move up to the next level.Industrial design, mechanical engineering, 5 axis CNC machining, electrical engineering, PCB layout, automation, programming, test and validation, marketing, back office management, and more are all up for participation. Most people will lean toward 1-2 of those things, but some will also be able to switch gears and enjoy tackling a little of all of those challenges.As an example: Shipping finished pieces. It is no small feat to design and implement an efficient shipping system, both conceptually and physically. It involves software, API's to FedEx/UPS, special printers, the right materials, a physical flow to minimize the time needed to ship, a way to capture mistakes and adjust to process to fix them, a set of metrics to understand if the system is working well. Even for a small business, it is a challenge and critical to do it well. We cannot bring in a specialty automation company like Amazon might do, we have to sort it out internally. There are dozens of short term projects that essentially boil down to internal infrastructure. If I hired someone that leans toward engineering, but cannot be bothered to design the shipping system first - busted. It would end up being all on me nights and weekends.I try to assign a value to specific skills when possible. For example, if someone learns to setup and run the pick & place machine - that is worth real money that is likely paid out as a bonus. Once you have a skill, nothing can take that skill away. It goes on your resume so I have to continue to make the pay appropriate as the skills grow so that I don't lose this person after investing enormous effort training them. That is why I work hard to ensure any employee knows that I recognize and appreciate personal progress - hopefully continuing to progress.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2017, 08:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on February 23, 2017, 07:59:42 pmI would say that I am very organized, but am overwhelmed to the point where I cannot maintain organization. I have spent a lot of time working out organizational schemes, but they still need to implemented. There are some areas that don't even have a plan yet and the ideal person would be able to recognize chaos, build a plan to organize it, and then follow through. It does NOT have to be my way as long as they can explain it to me and it makes sense. If it is something that I personally have to deal with every day, I will have more opinions. If it is something that only the employee deals with most of the time, I have far fewer opinions as long as it works reliably and safely.Having someone so dedicated to stay all night to hit a deadline is a great dream - but not a real expectation. Our work does some in waves but I have learned to avoid tsunami's the majority of the time which is good for everyone. Go back 10 years and it was a real roller coaster cluster f'ck crazy. Today, not so insane. In 2007 I worked continuously for about 55 hours. Stupid. Crazy.

author: snarkysparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 01:43:06 pm
content: I would say you are looking for something impossible. The job description sounds more like a business partner than an employee. You want someone to be invested in making your business a success in all aspects but the salary / hourly pay scheme tends to encourage a different attitude in people. Of course it is not impossible because you have had people like this before but as you say they were flukes.Anyway good luck.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2017, 06:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: snarkysparky on February 24, 2017, 01:43:06 pmThere is no question it is a tall order. Here is the difference between what I am asking for and a partner.....A partner already has most of the skills prescribed. If they don't, they expect to learn them on their own without leaning on everyone else (slowing them down). A partner gets paid zero until the operation is actually working. A partner, in general, has a their own investment of time/money in the business. If the business fails, they lose all of what they put in.The employee that I am looking for is one that simply has potential and interest and they get paid regardless of how well the business does. They are the first to get paid ahead of owners and partners. They build skills over a considerable amount of time and take up my own personal time to make that happen. This employee may be a good partner a few years down the road, but not likely on day 1.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 11:34:11 am
content: Quote from: snarkysparky on February 24, 2017, 01:43:06 pmNothing about it says business partner to me.There's a huge difference between seeking unicorns and seeking smart, quick learners with potential. I think the business world in general makes the mistake of seeking the former, when what they should be doing is the latter.I would kill to get into a place willing to give me the time and support to get up to speed. I'm a super quick learner, but how am I supposed to get experience if I can't get in anywhere? (I am a job seeker at the moment, and this is a constant problem, everyone only wants experienced hires, but how am I supposed to gain said experience if I can't get in the door??) The OP sounds like a very wise person who'd probably be great to work for, if it's a good match.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 12:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 25, 2017, 11:34:11 amI don't want to derail the thread but the answer to that question is: build circuits by yourself at home.On topic: I'm not sure hiring one person for a wide variety of jobs (janitor, machinist, EE) is such a good idea. What could be a good approach is to get an intern in his/her last year. If the person fits then you have an employee. There are lots of companies out there where you can hire a cleaner to keep the lab clean and take the trash out.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 07:09:00 pm
content: I don't agree at all with the comments that this is impossible. I have worked in and seen a lot of companies where this is even common sense.Employees are expected to wear many many hats, have a very pro-active attitude and are not to annoyed when working on odd times.I was head of departement in one of these companies and I always enjoyed it We had quiet some interns which were expected to think on the same way.The way to find these people, is to have a proper job description to start with. Next is selecting them on their experience. So see if they did a lot of stuff in the past. That means they are willing to work.I even prefer picking people with a lot of (hobby) experience over people with a degree. Knowledge is easy to teach, experience is not.You expect that people think outside the box, so it means you also have to do that. Think in possibilities. The people you're looking for do this type of work for joy. More important is that they also need to fit well together. Like a group of friends.My personal experience means that things like a good salary etc are not the most important things.Last but not least, even if everyone is expected to wear many hats, also let them specialise.Otherwise their daily tasks will be way to vague.And be aware you are not going to find anyone with exactly ALL those skills.You're looking for people with potential.Personal note, is that i also do much better when I have many different things to do. Strict daily planned tasks make my brain feel numb. Far from motivating.In fact this job also sound like nice to me.Ever thought about working with remote freelancers?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 07:46:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 25, 2017, 12:20:49 pmThere is a big difference in tinkering at home with a few hundred $$ worth of pieces and parts and working at a business. On the job experience is critical and very hard to get.We have enough work to have a person doing general cleaning maybe 1hr per week. The lab/machine shop is essentially taking the trash out for a typical cleaning service - useless. The people in charge of that area are responsible for organization and cleaning all the detailed and delicate things.Everyone needs to have a specialty area they can call their own for sure. My first real 'job' the big boss told me to create a job and let them know what it was. They would then decide how to proceed. So I did - it was a good size facility with many $millions of dollars worth of gear. I learned all of it going from department to department before settling in to my official job. At that point, I was aware of what everyone else did and how the big picture was created. When one dept had issues - I was able to jump in a help out. It was fantastic.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 10:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on February 25, 2017, 07:09:00 pmDefinitely not impossible.Quote from: b_force on February 25, 2017, 07:09:00 pmThis is a tough one for me. My experience is that when I define the position clearly - I end up with people that really just want to do that particular job. They may even be fantastic at it as well. When they learn that they also need to jump in to the shipping 'department' to get things to a customer, they feel like they should not be asked to do that or at least don't take any responsibility for it since it is not a defined part of their job.On the other hand, a loose description can be rather scary to some otherwise great candidates. At the end of the day - this is our 3rd person including me. There is no way to specialize or be too good to sweep the floor periodically. When I still had my CNC shop in-house, I regularly cleaned and organized MYSELF even though I had 12 employees. I pointed out to most of them that I am doing that because they are not doing it as they went along - the ones that only did what they were told did not last. I personally take the trash out, design circuits, machine parts, update the web page, label folders, pack boxes, etc. Whatever needs to be done on that particular day is the job of everyone until the team is large enough to divide the tasks.Quote from: b_force on February 25, 2017, 07:09:00 pmQuote from: b_force on February 25, 2017, 07:09:00 pmIf you can remotely setup a PCB run, test them, assemble the whole mechanical system with 500+ parts, and then ship it while working remotely - you are in.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 11:02:08 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 24, 2017, 06:01:05 pmThat's true, but a few years down the road they likely will not beyourpartner. I've always had better long term success disclosing the mundane details of a job. If they get turned off reading about it, how well will they perform doing it? Broad advertising and luck.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 11:03:33 pm
content: QuoteTwo arm robot (ie. motoman DA20 etc.) on trolley, some cameras a highspeed netlink and a control table. Pluss some glue code for the off-the-shelf-components. I call it playsible.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2017, 11:24:44 pm
content: Quote from: HwAoRrDk on February 23, 2017, 02:24:37 amDitto.Ian.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 01:18:59 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 25, 2017, 10:35:25 pmCheck your private messages.(I thought I send one before, but for some reason I lost it or so....??)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 02:12:37 am
content: Quote from: b_force on February 26, 2017, 01:18:59 amTo see your Sent PM's you have to enable it from within your profile, it's not setup by default.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 06:25:30 am
content: Im your man. Only you can't afford me. LolAdvertise for what you want, see what you find.Figure out which is the best and accept that theres going to be some holes in your list and that you'll have to plug them up. Then try to fill those holes next hire..I'm also now a big believer in hiring engineering students in Year 3/4 of their study.. You can easily hire them on casual contracts and its an awesome job interview. You'll figure out how good they are. I'm about to take one on full time and look to hire another one.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 03:52:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 25, 2017, 12:20:49 pmTwo things about that: 1. Hobby experience and work experience are not the same thing in most cases. Even if you hypothetically built the exact same item, work experience goes beyond just doing the work. There are tons of other skills one acquires on the job, like how business works, workplace communication, etc, as well as industry "insider" knowledge. Very few industries accept personal experience in lieu of professional experience and/or professional qualifications. And finally, there are some types of experience you simply cannot gain outside of the workplace. For example, to gain experience with enterprise storage arrays, you have to work with enterprise storage arrays, but a young person is not likely to have $100K of storage gear at home to practice with.2. I wasn't referring to electronics exclusively (just as the OP's job isn't exclusively electronics). The problem of companies seeking afresh bachelor's graduate with 7 years experience with a product that's only existed for 3 yearsis widespread.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 05:01:40 pm
content: I suspect that you cannot fill your needs exactly.You describe a person with the drive and capability to start and run their own business, and expect to keep that person indefinitely. Perhaps rewickering your needs will aid in finding and hiring someone who can satisfy you. Either add the aversion to being their own boss (I have known a few like this, mostly folks who have been badly burned by the small business life), or accept that you will be a short term (3-8) year employer of the individual, trading training and experience for the energy and skills of the individual over that interval.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2017, 05:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 26, 2017, 03:52:55 pmSorry but it does work that way. Say you have 2 fresh-out-of-school candidates for an EE position. Ones builds circuits at home and has shown some examples during the interview and the other one doesn't. Which one is the most likely to get hired?Remember: everyone needs to learn the 'office politics' so that is equal across all people you hire.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 06:08:00 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 26, 2017, 05:01:40 pmNot a chance. This is a aim for the stars and hope for the moon scenario.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 26, 2017, 05:01:40 pmI have had a couple of really smart people that did exactly that. They were using the opportunity as a stepping stone and that is fine - I could see it coming for miles and I am proud to have provided and little push we may have provided.The other super stars simply did not have the guts to do their own thing. They had the drive to be great at what they do but too risk averse to give up a regular pay check. Honestly - I don't mind either way. A short term or long term as long as they love to learn and learn quick. There is no expectation of finding a lifer.Quote from: nctnico on February 26, 2017, 05:07:20 pmNo doubt if a candidate loves arduino projects and making 3D printers at home - the is a HUGE plus! It shows drive and enthusiasm for creating things. Those people have learned how to learn which cannot be forced on them as a job description.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 11:37:20 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 26, 2017, 05:07:20 pmThat's an entirely different point from the one I was making. And I'd like to re-emphasize that I wasn't talking about electronics specifically.Yes, personal interest/extracurricular knowledge is always helpful. Nobody's saying otherwise. But if a company says they want someone with 5 years experience working on weapons guidance targeting sensors, there's no way you can acquire such experience at home. If they want someone with customer service experience, again, you cannot acquire that experience on your own. (I happen to think that customer service skills are largely innate, but this point is lost on most hiring managers.)

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 04:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 27, 2017, 11:37:20 amYes, this is why I hope to be very careful about wording the job description and requirements. Of course it would be fantastic to find someone with many years of experience in our exact skill space but it eliminates 99.99% of the possibilities. That is more of a problem when you operate in a very niche market like we do. In general, I am hoping forpotentialwhich comes from a wide variety of sources. One of my best guys in the past built boats previously - TOTALLY unrelated to what he needed to do with us (not manufacturing at all). Another one was a party planner previously and went directly into manufacturing and office tasks. The only reason I was interested in them was because of what they did in their free time. They seemed like the types to identify and solve problems on their own. They clearly enjoyed challenging themselves. That is something that cannot be practically taught on the job. If I demand specific experience in PCB layout, assembly, machining, etc - I feel like I would get that skill at the expense of the other tasks they would need to do.If you were looking for a PCB layout job, for example, and you found yourself shipping products and running to FedEx a few times per week - how would that work out? If I advertise for a true jack of all trades, it's like a cattle call for anyone looking for a job that day.I still have not found any relevant clubs in my area, but have not given up.Maybe if I specifically spelled out the top 10 tasks applicants would be expected to learn and we are looking for people that can demonstrate the ability to learn new things? If your hobby is hanging out at the beach with friends - you may not get a call. If your hobby is building things or something that challenges your brain in a technical way - you will get noticed.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 05:30:09 pm
content: I have exactly the skills you want, but it took me 40 years of very unusual employment to get them. I consult now and work 4-5 hours a day for a pretty high hourly rate. Life has made me sufficiently cynical that I'm probably unemployable by any normal definition of employment. You're after what's known as a polymath, and they seem to be few and far between these days. They can be difficult to deal with and keep happy. Are there any Maker Faire sorts of groups or people around you? Co-ops from local engineering schools can be useful, as they may eventually develop into people you can use and hire.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 05:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on February 27, 2017, 05:30:09 pmHa! Me too. Over the past few years I have received a few offers, but once they learn that I have my own ideas and ways - the discussion goes away.