Geller voltage reference schematic ?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2024, 06:50:44 am
content: HelloAs Mister Geller is out of businessDoes that possible to locate a schematic of the Geller Voltage Reference ? I have a picture from this forum ( linked ) but not the BOMI dont want to copy just to copy I just want to progress and get new PCB to built some .Question : As the original is through-holes components I will upgrade with surface mounted when possibleRegardsOS

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2024, 07:09:30 am
content: BOM:Parts List (from the website):AD587 chip, e.g. AD587KN DIGIKEY AD587KN-ND (the AD587LN was discontinued), or AD586 series chip for a 5 V boardC062K104K1X5CA MOUSER 80-CK06BX104KECQ-V1H104JL Digi-Key P4525-ND3299W-1-201 MOUSER 652-3299W-1-201 (200 ohms, use 1 k ohms when a wide selection of select and test fixed trim R's are not available)TRIM R IRC 0.1% MOUSER 66-RC55LF-D-3.24K (for some 587 production runs: only if using a 200 ohm trimmer, 2.87K or 3.01K, see manual)TRIM R IRC 0.1% MOUSER 66-RC55LF-D-7.32K (see manual)COPPER LOOPS #18 SOLID COPPER WIRE2 PIN IDC HEADERIDC SHORTING PLUGMill-Max SOCKT MOUSER 575-193308solderPlease see attached .pdf for the schematics

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2024, 07:15:53 am
content: Quote from: Overspeed on May 23, 2024, 06:50:44 amDont do that: the wires give a certain decoupling from PCB (and swelling of PCB by humidity)For the same reason you should use a CERDIP8-Device for the AD587 (e.g. AD587JQ/AD587KQ)otherwise the drift will be in the range of 0.2-0.5 ppm/% rH.The SVR(-T) are missing a 100 nF capacitor between the output pins to reduce EMI influences.The enhanced SVR-T Version from Lars is included in my AD587LW design.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/ad587lw-10v-precision-travel-standard/msg1449488/#msg1449488with best regardsAndreas

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2024, 09:41:02 am
content: A few years ago, we had some black edition boards produced.I might still have a few ...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/geller-labs-svr-lars-walenius-black-edition-with-587lq/

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2024, 11:41:32 am
content: HelloThanks for your quick and detailed answerMy idea is to fit the PCB underneath the box cover as carry cot , no wire but studs / through the cover with ring seal / potting ( see picture as possible other solution rod are in thread brass so no leak between insulation and wire core ) and use a sealed enclosure with a Nitrogen valve very close to an ATEX enclosure like thathttps://www.atexdelvalle.com/fr/coffrets-antideflagrants-atex/junction-boxesI can make one easy in the right dims as 100 x 75 x 50 or make it easy in 6062 / 5083 alloy or even with a 4 inch square pipe a welded plate and a cover with a quality seal I can also make them from a block of PEHD plasticQuestion :The missing cap 100 nF on the schematic is between 5 and 6 pin ? a ceramic XR7 is enough ?RegardsOS

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2024, 05:44:44 pm
content: Test your epoxy on that feedthru. Some filled epoxies are more conductive than you might think. A fun example is J.B. Weld. It's "non-conductive" in bulk, but a thin layer between two plates will be very conductive because the iron particles bridge the gap. Some conductive epoxies use the same principle to connect flex circuits to card fingers and not short out the fingers. Other epoxies have carbon and don't give the very high ohm readings you might like.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2024, 07:11:13 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on May 23, 2024, 05:44:44 pmHelloThanks for the advice , I agree for JB weld that not a true miracle product and most 2 component repair putty are loaded with micro aluminium powder or stainless steelI use this onehttps://www.tedpella.com/technote_html/891-60%20TN.pdffor low pressure / inert atmosphere I use also high temp cement ashttps://www.final-materials.com/gb/232-high-temperature-ceramic-adhesivefor copper housing or brass housing / copper wire with reduced gag ( 1 mm )Loctite 648is wonderful as copper react with Loctite to generate a very strong glue able to work at 80 / 100 deg C safe only concern is that quite liquid so to request a plug / center to quick the Loctite in the holeAvoid any silicone product as silicone react with copper under current to generate dark pollution on any contacts that hell . even some wire succeed to pollute enclosureI will post a cutaway of my proposed design before Monday I have some files to send tomorrow I am late on a customer project but built a clever true precision and stable Voltage Reference with easily available components is very interesting .RegardsOS

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2024, 11:11:49 pm
content: Hello, I've engineered many projects, and sometimes a simple answer to a problem can get you 95% of the way. I have not tested this idea in this particular application, but maybe it will work for you. There is a great (and inexpensive) product, molecular seive dessicants. Basically, a metallic oxide that removes humidity from the air. We use this all the time to dry out our dewpoint sensors. Anyway, back to my idea.You take the board with the reference and put it in a small waterproof plastic enclosure. Place a few beads (maybe a teaspoon) wrapped in some plastic mesh (so they don't bounce around) inside the enclosure with the electronics. Then, feed your wires through a couple of holes in the enclosure and seal the holes with epoxy. Voila, the beads will absorb the moisture and the reference will stay very dry for a very long time. Put the whole thing in a larger box with your low emf binding posts and power supply and you're good to go.Maybe this idea is idiotic, who knows. I know that it will be cheap to make and test, so why not give it a shot?Thoughts anyone?TomG.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 02:31:44 am
content: Molecular sieve works great, but there are several types. I'm thinking 4A, but do some research on which works well with water-sized molecules. Bake the stuff out at high temperature before using and it should keep things dry for a long time.

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 03:04:22 am
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on May 24, 2024, 02:31:44 amYes, we've used this product and were able to get -67 DegC dryness with our dewpoint sensors (one teaspoon dessicant in small 3/4" diameter tube) without a bakeout. Here's a plain link:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09QGM9X7G(no affiliation with Amazon OR seller).TomG.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 09:08:05 am
content: Quote from: CalibrationGuy on May 23, 2024, 11:11:49 pmHelloThanks for the product linkTo limit humidity contamination a sealed enclosure is a need OR to install a humidity gageI will post a first design with an optional inside container for desiccantsRegardsOS

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 02:34:34 pm
content: Hello, I am very eager to see your results.TomG.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 02:45:49 pm
content: Desiccant works, but "very long time" is a fuzzy thing. Achieving times measured in years requires very good seals and an appropriate ratio of desiccant weight to protected volume.The sealing part is hard and includes thinking about diffusion rates through the sealing materials.Assuring that the contents of your box are initially dry also helps (baking, vacuum etc.) to avoid using up all of the desiccant capacity doing the initial dry out.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 03:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 24, 2024, 02:45:49 pmHelloI agree that the primary condition is to be 100 % that the enclosure the PCB and all the parts are dry , that not so easy , and after enclosure closing to be sure that the seals are perfect , that why on military equipment the is humidity indicatorhttps://brownell.co.uk/products/humidity-indicators/r-f-screened-for-equipment-and-enclosures.htmlRegardsOS

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 03:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 24, 2024, 02:45:49 pmA valid point, yes. Keep in mind that this dessicant is high performance, and you need just a little to accomplish your goal. Also, even with parts/enclosures that are not dry, humidity stabilization will occur within a few days. We have tested this, it's not just conjecture or speculation. Of course, the only way to see what happens is to try it out.TomG.

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 03:29:03 pm
content: Maybe this will help. Here is an inexpensive humidity sensor that you can use to validate your prototype:https://www.adafruit.com/product/4566It will monitor humidity and it's only $5!Have fun!TomG.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2024, 07:50:10 pm
content: It's a shame the supply of NOS former Soviet hollow hermetic glass seals has dried up. They were ideal for running copper wires into sealed enclosures with no interruptions.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 08:03:57 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 24, 2024, 07:50:10 pmHelloThis kind of products is made in USA from companies ashttps://www.completehermetics.com/hermetic-products-and-services/glass-to-metal-seals-and-feedthroughsproblem is the price $$$$$ as new and even on EbayCan be done with SS304 1/8 or 1/4 made in china and epoxy ... no so pretty but OK for a DIY or hobby purpose even for a professional use as that a part for a show ...I link my in process design with two valve one for flush on for nitrogen filling and a '' housing '' for desiccantRegardsOS

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 02:06:45 pm
content: Tap blind holes from the inside- no reason to pass the screws to the outside. Use a single valve. Either evacuate and back-fill or run a small tube through the valve and blow the nitrogen through that, with the outflow around the tube. Or, ditch the valve entirely and just quickly install a pipe plug with Teflon tape. Put it in a plastic bag if you're really paranoid about getting the plug in place. The problem is you don't know if the finished device is leak free. High tech is you helium leak check it, then fill and solder off the fill tube. Another crazy thought, if you can do some glass-blowing, is to make a sealed large diameter glass tube with feedthrus, install everything, then neck it down and do the fill. Makes repairs a bit of a PITA though!

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 02:36:49 pm
content: Isn't it much simpler just to use a hermetically packaged reference if a good long term stability and insensitivity to humidity changes are needed?CheersAlex

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 03:11:33 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on May 25, 2024, 02:36:49 pmYes. Just not for the rest of the circuit.

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 04:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on May 25, 2024, 02:36:49 pmHelloYes and noasYes for the ICNo for all other connections contacts or components as copper and humidity is a very bad contactI plan to make tests so I will use first plastic IC as the quite cheap and easily availableI am not paranoiac but I usually overkill problem when bomb proof solutions are cheap or available in the warehouse as surplusI have no problem to machine a sealed container and flush it with NitrogenI am very upset regarding humidity trapped and that very difficult to get full dried parts and install them in an enclosureNitrogen is nor always Nitrogenhttps://nigen.com/nitrogen-gas-purity-grade-specification-industrial-medical-food/#SnippetTabSo if that not OFN that does solve 100 % of the problemI will post a detailed drawing of my DIY epoxy sealed pass trough in 1/4 inch with BOMI agree for blind hole to avoid to pass through the coverRegardsOS

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 05:07:40 pm
content: Others have solved that before. For examplehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/experiments-with-vref-ovens/msg5486191/#msg5486191. That is a flat cable with 12 signals and with an epoxy seal. The seal is thin and covered with aluminum at least 8 mm in all directions. The aluminum cover also serves as a heat spreader to reduce thermal gradients. Capacitance of each signal line to the aluminum enclosure is about 40 pF. That aluminum enclosure is a standard trade product. It has a rubber seal to make it (almost) hermetic. With a little bag of desiccant inside, relative humidity will be 20 % or less inside if you wait a little.When i built a voltage reference based on the Geller board in 2009, i put it into a simple thermostat as i did not have the patience for TC correction with thermistor networks.Regards, Dieter

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 05:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: Overspeed on May 25, 2024, 04:42:48 pmIf you're going to this trouble, why not use something completely non-reactive like Argon.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 06:00:09 pm
content: Argon has different thermal properties, which you may like better or worse. Just FYI.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 06:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on May 25, 2024, 06:00:09 pmYes, it has around half the specific heat capacity [of Nitrogen]. I've never been able to work out whether that's a good thing or not either. It may reduce the effect of convection currents but may also cause higher component temperatures (if dissipation is an issue). Again, it might improve the effect of physical thermal coupling between parts but at the expense of lower thermal coupling to the enclosure (if not physically clamped).One of the reasonsit is / was used in filament lamps is to reduce thermal losses to the glass for a given filament temperature, as well as being non-reactive with the incandescent Tungsten.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 07:29:23 pm
content: We have to learn how to work with glass and feed through wires. Imagine a standard test tube (laboratory glassware) - its material could be melted with a common gas torch or even a kitchen gas cooker, imho. The only problem could be to find the suitable wires which would seal hermetic with the glass (it cannot be a rocket science, however).. No vacuum needed in our case..

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2024, 01:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on May 25, 2024, 07:29:23 pmHellometal ( alloy ) for glass seal is Invar but there is different I link an interesting doc on wire glass sealfor low positive pressure and ambient temp epoxy works nice , even at high pressure epoxy is impressive just need a Male / Female fitiing in SS304 some bare copper wire and epoxy puttyOr that possible to use feed through as sale by TCdirect or other makerRegardsOS

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2024, 01:22:27 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on May 25, 2024, 06:00:09 pmHelloI Agree regarding thermal property between Nitrogen and Argon , question is quantity will be low as cavity is small and pressure is low , I plan to stay in the 150KPa so around 20 PSINitrogen is cheaper Argon is more common in industries as that use for weldingRegardsOS

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2024, 04:36:27 pm
content: Argon is also easily available in small quantities, it is used for TIG welding non ferrous metals (select pure Argon rather than Argon/CO2 mix, both are sold).

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2024, 07:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 26, 2024, 04:36:27 pmHelloYes a thing to know is the price of any welding gaz increase a lot when quantity is small , I use 3 m3 cylinder for welding and some smaller I have Argon but not laboratory grade argon , that not a real problem for preliminary tests as I suppose I will . can be in the case to reopen the enclosure and flush againI will first make a ''seal proof test '' at 6 PSI to check the possible leaksRegardsOS

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2024, 09:29:57 pm
content: For sealing wires in glass, look up Dumet wire and Housekeeper's seal.

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 02:16:37 am
content: I'm all for a challenge, but there's still the option of using a waterproof enclosure and a bit of desiccant.....Just saying....TomG.

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 05:00:24 am
content: that is a really chunky piece of metal boxit reminds me of the unit belowhttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/319890302_10_V_1_O_10_kO_high_accuracy_standard_setup_for_calibration_of_multifunction_electrical_instruments_and_for_inter-laboratory_comparisonsQuote from: Overspeed on May 25, 2024, 08:03:57 am

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 06:00:40 am
content: I think this is not about buying some parts but about know-how. Just happened to read about "compression seals" and "matched seals". Reminds me of my early days at PTB. It can take a life to build up a serious physics setup. There needs to be some clean room level and still humidity can evaporate from metal surfaces.Looking at the humidity controlled bags we get when ordering certain parts from Farnell or Digikey, i think epoxy seals should be good enough and way better than using connectors. Desiccant inside ovenized hermetic enclosures still has its surprises for me. For example some people believe they should insert old used desiccant bags in order to enforce stable humidity right from the start. But that just isn't true. At least we now have those I2C sensors to monitor humidity inside a hermetic enclosure.For the AD587 you just get the ceramic package and that's it. In comparison to a LTZ1000 it's a pretty noisy reference, even when you connected a good noise suppression cap. Geller had a patent for running the AD587 gain stage with a low noise zener.Regards, Dieter

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 07:28:15 am
content: Hello dietert1,the Patend from Joe handles more about reducing the T.C. of the AD587 than reducing noise.https://patents.google.com/patent/US7382179B2/enThe LM399 which he uses with AD587 to get a temperature stable output has comparable noise (~0.6 ppm peak peak / V).The advantage is having a temperature stable output voltage divider well below 1 ppm/K (in best case in a hermetically package).see also here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/ad587lw-10v-precision-travel-standard/msg4142020/#msg4142020with best regardsAndreas

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 12:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 27, 2024, 06:00:40 amDieterHumidity is a tricky problem , oxygen is anotherTo reach a very low level of humidity there is some parameters to considerThe enclosureThe ambient atmosphereThe trapped humidity in the board ( under the IC , under the compoents , inside / between the wire ...)The process I use on measuring equipmentI place all the parts in a pressure cooker , I warm at 75 deg CI connect the pressure cooker to a vacuum pumpI open the valve to shallow the air / humidity inside the pressure cookerI close the vacuum valveI open the Nitrogen injection valve to fill the pressure cookerI close the Nitrogen valveAt this level the parts are dry and in a Nitrogen atmosphere supposed with very low Oxygen level ( IF Nitrogen is over 99.99 ) be aware of lw quality Nitrogen as used to inflate tyresI place the pressure cooker in a glove box ( keep dry with desiccant )I open the pressure cookerI can complete the assembly in a very dry placeAfter assy completionI can flush and fill the enclosure with argon or nitrogen and remove from the glove box.Right now I will not use this way I will just flush the enclosure on preliminary dried parts just to check if ''all is OK '' as a complete process is quite time consuming and my glove box is in use for another projectFrom a general view : humidity is a true nightmare and very difficult to measure at low levelRegardsOS

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 04:04:08 pm
content: @OS: In my home workshop where temperature is very stable but humidity is not, here is a result measured from a $100 reference bought on eBay.The setup: eBay reference connected to Keysight 34420a meter next to Agilent 34970a with K thermocouple wire measuring room temperature. Everything is calibrated.The result: Today's reading is 10.000097. Reading all winter was 10.000020. Almost 8ppm difference.What changed? The heating system kept humidity at or below 30% RH. Now it is 55%.Intrigued, I took the reference apart. It is based on the LT1021-10 in an SOIC8 package with the blue multiturn blue potentiometer for voltage trim, nothing special.Yes, humidity matters. So for fun, I can place the reference in a plastic ziploc bag with some dessicant if anyone's interested.Here's a picture.TomG.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 04:11:29 pm
content: This topic is perfect for volt nuts. There are multiple possible reasons to care about humidity.Physical stresses due to expansion/contraction of PWBs and other parts due to moisture content. Presumably this reason only demands a constant humidity, absolute dryness isn't necessary. There is the possibility of "tuning" for optimum humidity.Moisture also is a factor in corrosion, leakage resistance and other factors. In this case the lower the better.Attaining low absolute humidity is a major process. Overspeed has touched on many of the points and described a relatively attainable home process. One thing I think was not emphasized enough is how long it takes to remove moisture. Captured moisture leaves via two pathways, I will call them leakage and diffusion. Leakage is direct expansion through open passages, and can be slower than expected because those paths can be very small and convoluted. Diffusion is passage of the water molecules through solid matter. It takes much longer, in the case of metals essentially forever. But diffusion rates through epoxy, rubber, plastic and other materials can vary widely and range from times measured in hours through times measured in years. They obviously also depend on thickness of the diffusion path.Sustaining a dry environment over time is another topic of its own. Again leaks and diffusion are involved, along with the capacity (moles or other measure of water that the amount of desiccant can absorb). Careful drying can reduce the how much of the desiccant capacity is consumed by residual moisture in the dry volume contents. The modern moisture sensors are convenient as a rough check, but are literally orders of magnitude away from being able to measure a truly dry environment. The interval is an interesting topic. There is an argument for the remaining life of the owner of the device. In any case times on the order of five to ten years seem appropriate. The drying process is painful enough that doing it more often than that should be avoided. Assuming that the initial dryness is good the life of the dryness can be calculated based on desiccant capacity and the total "leak" path, composed of the elements I called leakage and diffusion earlier. I know of no way to estimate leakage. In principal you could pull a vacuum on the chamber and watch the pressure rise (or pressurize it with clean dry gas), but for long life the rate of pressure change is too low to measure. There is equipment to measure such leak rates (the helium leak rate detector mentioned above and the like) but most will not have this capability. Diffusion can be estimated given appropriate material data on seals and their thickness along the diffusion path. A practical solution is the very real uncertainty in the values involved is massive overkill on the desiccant supply. Something like 80 percent of the total volume of the reference would seem like a good start.All in all a very big side rathole for volt nuts to dive into.

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 05:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: CalibrationGuy on May 27, 2024, 04:04:08 pmHmm,so roughly 0.32 ppm/% rH. Which is in the typical observations of 0.2-0.5 ppm/% rH for plastic packages.If you want to do the test: the time constant is usually 3-7 days so it needs at least 2 weeks to settle to the new humidity level.with best regardsAndreas

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 06:24:32 pm
content: HelloThis equipment is use as a referencehttps://us.flukecal.com/products/humidity-calibration/humidity-generators/5128a-rhapid-cal%C2%AE-humidity-generator?quicktabs_product_details=4I have not succeed to download a service manual . problem is to generate and control humidityORmake reading and measurements following mother nature goodwill .RegardsOS

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 06:35:59 pm
content: In autumn 2022 i put some dry desiccant with a moisture sensor and some precision resistor arrays into a bottle with rubber seal. During the first 6 months the meter showed nothing (negative?). Recently i found that the coin cell of the meter needed replacement (working rapidly). Anyway, now after about 20 months the meter indicates 7 %RH. Will decrease another one or two % during the next week.In an ambient of about 50 % average humidity this means a leakage & absortion time constant of 100 months, or 8 years. In other words, seasonal variations will get attenuated roughly by a factor 16 to 24. So inside the enclosure humidity will remain constant to about +/- 1 %RH once it has reached ambient average.If the enclosure is an oven, the average inside will finally be below ambient humidity. The same water content gives less relative humidity at higher temperatures.The IP66 aluminum enclosures i am using for precision electronics behave similar to the bottle due to their rubber seals and the electronics is made to last, with supply via epoxy sealed wiring. No need to open it once it is ready. The art is how to start the process in order to reach that final average humidity as fast as possible. Certainly not using dry desiccant!Regards, Dieter

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 07:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 25, 2024, 05:52:17 pmHelloI just dont want to purchase ( or rent ) a 400 Euro cylinder + 100 Euro of Nitrogen fill just to use one or two liters of gaz for test . So Argon can do the job asI have Argon available and right now I try to fight again humidity first .I can add another pass through connector to connect a PT100 or even use a Pelletier element I have temperature controller Eurotherm available and several Pt100 thermometer too .RegardsOS

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 10:44:07 pm
content: For many of the effects of water it is absolute humidity, not relative humidity that matters. In this sense it is like oxygen where the quantity matters, not how close it is to a state change condition. So the reduction in relative humidity as temperature goes up is giving a false sense of security.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 04:52:59 am
content: My measurements indicate that higher temperature also "activates" the desiccant to absorb once more. I mean the reduction in relative humidity due to temperature increase is immediate and included in the sensor firmware, while the observed effects are slow and much larger than expected.There could also be kind of poisoning of the sensor by the desiccant. I started some oven experiments to understand this better.Regards, Dieter

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 05:06:04 am
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 28, 2024, 04:52:59 amHelloI agree with yous statement on poisoning as some desiccant are not stable under high temp even ambient tempThe best neutral desiccant I use is wood charcoal for water filtering packed in coffee filter to avoid dust , silica gel is also an option if that pure product with additive .https://www.agmcontainer.com/product-category/moisture-control/bulk-desiccant/?msclkid=5e853b16fedc1acada465d439b70d207&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=**LP%20DSA%20-%20Desiccant&utm_term=desiccant&utm_content=DessicantsI far prefer heat + vacuum as the NO chemical risk for preliminary desiccation , That important to not saturate the desiccant inside the enclosure but use it as a ''safety belt ''RegardsOS.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 06:04:47 am
content: Quote from: Andreas on May 27, 2024, 05:37:40 pmI can see that nicely with my 34401A (while measuring the ADR1001 10V ref, always on). After say 3-4weeks the meter is off, firstly the voltage it shows goes up by some 1.5-2.5ppm (after first 24hours on), then slowly decreases to the final state (takes aprox 10-14 days). That is due to the humidity, imho, as the temperature inside the meter goes from ambient to ambient+18.5C, moreover I've been using a thin "foam sleeve" beneath the top cover which "seals" the inside of the meter a little bit too (and keeps the moisture as well)..

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 06:13:26 am
content: Just to rule out temperature, I allowed the space to get as hot as it ever would when the heat was on in winter. And here are the results: 10.000106Vdc at 77.2 DegF. Humidity is the same, 55% RH. So 5.6 degrees temp rise gives 0.9ppm voltage drift. So most, but not all of the drift is humidity related.Picture below.PS - I suggest that we start another thread devoted to humidity effects on the various reference circuits because this thread didn't start with that topic.@iMo: Meter was on long before I turned the reference on to stabilize. This meter tends to drift down a little from a cold start.TomG.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 06:55:38 am
content: Quote from: CalibrationGuy on May 27, 2024, 04:04:08 pmI bought the same VRef about 2 years ago. Initially I thought it performed alright (just whining about the unfortunate choice of connectors), given its price. However I recently noticed that it takes an awful long time (multiple days) to settle to a semi-stable output when off for a prolonged time (weeks in my case). I assumed this to be humidity related, slowly driven out when running (a little warmer than the environment). I haven't opened mine yet, but would be surprised, if it's not a plastic packaged LT1021. I think this unit is particularly sensitive to humidity. I have an older (presumably) AD588 based unit off eBay ("KKmoon") which settles within minutes after turning on.In the graph red and blue are readings of a temperature sensors, purple is the difference voltage to a Fluke 515A calibrator (which I leave running).

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 07:30:57 am
content: It has no sense to mess with plastic references. It had been said many times in past here.Otherwise you will waste huge amount of time with rather questionable results.Of course, you may continue with epoxy experiments, it is a nice area of basic research on humidity effects.All those epoxy Vrefs out of ali and ebay are simply a joke, nobody from this section would trust to their performance.PS: all those plastic/ceramic references were designed ~45y back mainly for at that time mainstream high end 12bit ADC/DACs. Even an epoxy reference can work fine in that application. The "high-end ovenized hermetic LM399" was developed also at that time for up to 14bit (16bit??) ADC/DACs, afaik.

author: CalibrationGuy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2024, 09:39:58 pm
content: @guenthert: My unit was shipped with batteries. If you don't remove them or replace them periodically, they can leak and destroy the device. That's one thing to check. If that's not it, sounds like maybe a bad capacitor. Sometimes they go bad and need a period of applied voltage before starting to work correctly again. If it's worth your time, have a look. Unfortunately, the binding posts are soldered to the board, so you'll have to do some "surgery" to get the board out. I can see from the side that mine has a reference in a SOIC8 package.Also, if it's of any value, mine starts at 10.000491Vdc and slowly moves down to 10.000097Vdc over the course of anywhere between 30-60min.Off all night. Turned on, here's the results:Temp: 74.5 DegF6:58PM - 10.0004917:05PM - 10.0002987:14PM - 10.0001627:28PM - 10.0001257:40PM - 10.0001177:52PM - 10.0001168:06PM - 10.0001138:20PM - 10.0001128:23PM - 10.0001108:32PM - 10.0001088:44PM - 10.0001088:50PM - 10.000106Turn A/C On HighTemp: 70.9 DegF9:23PM - 10.000097Temp: 71.0 DegF9:59PM - 10.000090TomG.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 10:26:49 am
content: Quote from: CalibrationGuy on May 28, 2024, 09:39:58 pmJust recently I found the courage to open the box. All nice and clean, the (Amazon branded) batteries are still fine. Just prior, it actually settled quicker. I don't monitor humidity in-house yet, only occasionally stare in disbelief at the weather app's report for local outside humidity. Having lived for some twenty years in the southwest USA, 95% or more (!) rel. humidity as found frequently here in Ammerland seems outlandish.