Just had to hand over my new to me o-scope to the navy.  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: lincoln
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 09:51:36 pm
content: After my current vintage o-scope died when I really needed it, I though it was time to invest in one that was made in this century. A local e-bay seller had a good deal on a Rohde and Schwarz, 500 MHz 4 channel. That was 1.5 months ago. Got a call form a an investigator saying the scope is stolen and property of the Navy.Well the call is legit and I'm now legally obliged to hand over the scope and hope Ebay or the seller will refund my money.I'm just venting, not really any one else who would understand.

author: kg4arn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 10:09:33 pm
content: Ouch!

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 10:20:03 pm
content: Before agreeing to anything, request positive proof that it belongs to the Navy and that the “investigator” is genuine and not a scammer. Don’t give them a serial number, pictures or anything until they have given you sufficient evidence that it is indeed stolen property. You have the right to know you aren’t being scammed by someone that saw the auction. Scrutinize any badge, documents etc that they may have.If there is a local legal self-help group where you can ask for legal advice, do so.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 10:25:24 pm
content: A better idea would be to phone the police and see what they say.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 10:26:37 pm
content: You should still be within the paypal window, if you did pay with paypal.Is it a legit seller?

author: lincoln
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 10:46:47 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 23, 2020, 10:26:37 pmThe seller is legit, Its a some what local test equipment house. I have bought from them before.As for the guy who called me, I have directed him to my lawyer.

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2020, 11:08:46 pm
content: If you got it locally, take it back and tell them to refund you. Document the whole thing with eBay. They will get on the case with the seller. Don't panic but just be cautious.How did the "investigator" know you have it? Looks like the seller is aware of the whole thing. Ask the investigator to provide his connection with the Navy so that you can check it out.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 12:30:47 am
content: Please do tell us how it all turns out.Very wise move to turn it all over to the lawyer. He'll know exactly what to do and it will only require a few phone calls, so the bill should be insignificant. And if you use him for business counsel, probably won't even bill you.I very much doubt that the lawyer in Texas that I had set up my S corp and review all my employment contracts would have billed me for it. Not worth the paperwork to bill for making a few short phone calls.Sadly, there are a lot of lawyers with a very different attitude. Once I wanted someone to review a real estate purchase and, because I did not then have a lawyer, got bled by an SOB that stretched a 15 minute conversation into 45 minutes engaging in idle chit chat and then billed me for 45 minutes at some obscene hourly rate. I was quite insulted.That convinced me it is a really good idea to have an established relationship with a good lawyer, so you know who to call, *before* you need to call him. A good lawyer's focus is keeping his clients out of court. When I set up my S corp, I was going to give my wife part ownership. He advised strongly against doing that. Texas is a community property state, so effectively she already had a right to 1/2 and it kept things simple when we later got divorced.What you want to look for is someone who mostly does general tax and estate planning and business law. Those are the skills you are most likely to need and also the last refuge of the lawyers of good character. If you need something more specialized such as criminal defense or divorce, you let him pick the person. He'll know who is honest and who is a crook. Mine sent me to someone for the divorce work and everything went very smoothly and cost only a few hundred dollars, much of which was filing fees.Interestingly, in conversations with both, I mentioned my grandfather and a brother of his were both lawyers and that I had intended to go into the law myself, but didn't because by the late 70's the legal profession in the US was over run by crooks. Both of them remarked if they had recognized what wouldhappen to the law they would have chosen a different career. But both are about 10 years older than I and it wasn't yet obvious that things would really go own hill fast once lawyers were allowed to advertise seeking clients when they started law school.Reg

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 01:06:47 am
content: Join the Navy and you will get the oscope (sign-on bonus)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 01:27:51 am
content: It is pretty lousy security if oscilloscopes can be sneaked out of military facilities. Wonder what else was taken out. The caller's story smells fishy.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 02:01:15 am
content: Quote from: Bud on January 24, 2020, 01:27:51 amX2. Tell them to show you a court order for you to return the scope. If the theft really happened I doubt that the Navy would even take the scope back, even if you gave it to them, since the calibration is now suspect and there could be hidden damage to the scope. Generally speaking the police might want the item back as evidence for a trial but owners rarely want a stolen item back (that's what insurance is for.)None of this story is adding up. You say that you got it from a local TE dealer that you know and trust. But if this item was stolen, then where did the dealer get it from? Or is he running a stolen TE fencing operation?If the investigator was legit they would have come to you in person and shown ID, and not called you on the phone!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 02:08:38 am
content: Quote from: lincoln on January 23, 2020, 09:51:36 pmHope you didn't admit that you received the item. I'd say to them that I never got it, ask the post office.As an aside, insist from now on that all correspondence be done in writing.edit:Quote from: lincoln on January 23, 2020, 10:46:47 pmAh.

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 02:10:13 am
content: The whole thing stinks of some fraud on the seller's side.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 02:22:14 am
content: This is what lawyers are for. You should have legal recourse against the seller, ebay and PayPal if you used it. However, it's a legal gamble and IANAL.Whether that is economic depends upon who perceives themselves in the weakest position. Selling stolen property is illegal. And for the seller, the ding to their reputation would be rather severe. So the seller has strong incentive to make you whole. A transaction review which states, "Merchandise was stolen and seized by police 45 days later." would be a serious impediment to continued operation on ebay.Reg

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 02:29:17 am
content: I would assume something that belongs to the navy, or any branch of the military for that matter would have some pretty heafty tracking. Stickers on it as a start, but probably something inside.Don'tturn it onreturn it right away, take it appaaaart. (just kidding though, probably a bad idea to do that)Sounds like a crappy situation though if what they're saying is true. Hopefully there is a way you can at least get your money back.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 02:35:42 am
content: Tell the caller that you'll meet him at your local police department and that he can explain it to both you and the police at the same time. Or maybe better, at the nearest FBI office. I'm sure that they'd be very interested in anyone pretending to be a federal law enforcement officer.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 03:11:36 am
content: Quote from: lincoln on January 23, 2020, 10:46:47 pmAnd at this point let the lawyer sort out the legitimacy of the claim etc. Other advice your are getting might be well intention but likely will make a miserable situation worse.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 03:39:15 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on January 24, 2020, 02:01:15 amYep, I wouldn't do a thing until a court order shows up.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 05:36:40 am
content: I once worked at a government facility where a lot of stuff went over the fence literally. It was a largish place something like 1 kM by 3 kM. Tall chain link fences with razor wire on the top. Guarded gates. Regular patrols.But there were a lot of people working in the many buildings on the site. Three shift 24 hour a day operation. Some not so honest. As the problem was reconstructed afterward they were able to place spotters for the patrols and other unwelcome eyes. And then literally threw the stuff over the top of the fence from a truck bed. Don't know how they caught it on the far side. Some, perhaps all, were caught in possession of the property.The point of all this is that is amazing how much money and effort you can spend on security and not have your operation leak proof. I would actually say that there are only two paths to "leak proof" security. The first is to have nothing. The second is to not admit to what you lost.I find it believable that the Navy lost gear. In spite of significant efforts to prevent that. And am encouraged that they are following up to recover losses. Far better than pretending it didn't happen. And also agree that assuring this is not a scam is well worth the effort. The evil ones are on both sides of the fence.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 05:42:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2020, 03:39:15 amYep, and maybe they will accompany that court order with a change of receiving. You might eventually get the charge dropped but it's not much of a win if your living under a bridge destitute because you were being a ahole. Let the lawyer sort it out, US lawyers on principal don't give the government anything.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 07:53:54 am
content: LOL ... the seller now can sell to party that willing to pay higher.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 07:10:59 pm
content: Quote from: lincoln on January 23, 2020, 09:51:36 pmI'd imagine the seller is required to give you a refund. And they likely pointed the investigator towards you so they'll probably expect a call from you.

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 08:41:54 pm
content: Another thought came to me. Will the Navy take so much trouble to hire an investigator and spend on him/her? I don't know the value of the scope and when it was made. It might be worthwhile for them to go to this much trouble to hunt for it.Anyway your lawyer should be able to sort it out.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 08:47:01 pm
content: NCIS would only pursue it as evidence to convict the thief. I agree it's all rather fishy.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 11:24:44 pm
content: I can understand that an investigator would be hired to track down some expensive equipment, there are specialist asset recovery companies. What I am more skeptical about is that an investigator would expect people to just hand over stuff after being informed it is "stolen". Surely they would always get police involved, who would have a copy of a crime report detailing the serial numbers.I got ripped off on one auction, wondering if this will be another scam I have to watch out for.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 11:27:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on January 24, 2020, 01:27:51 amLOL it's really not. I worked for a big defence contractor and stuff kept getting nicked all the time. Then someone flew some planes into some buildings, we suddenly got turnstiles and huge concerete block crash fences, vehicle and person searches by MP5 wielding MoD police. Nothing ever went missing again!Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on January 24, 2020, 11:24:44 pmIt probably works often enough and cheaply enough that it's worth a try. No one wants to involve a lawyer or courts because that eats into the profit on the asset recovery company.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 11:38:17 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on January 24, 2020, 05:42:03 amNot unless the OP purchased it KNOWING that it was stolen. Since the OP bought this via E-bay that would be a TOUGH charge to make stick. Short of having audio or video tape of the OP and the seller discussing that the item was stolen, that would be a tough charge to make stick anyway.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 11:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on January 24, 2020, 02:01:15 amThis is the same thing that happened in the Agilent ebay thread, everyone doubted the lawyers calls, emails, etc. It was all legit.The equipment was given to a recycler to scrap, they sold it instead of scrapping it, so they wanted to recover the gear. I wouldn't be surprised if its a similar issue here.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2020, 11:48:38 pm
content: That's different than stolen. If it's stolen property you can be arrested for receiving or possession of stolen property. If it was sold and intended to be scrapped, I'd tell them to piss off and say I don't have it anymore. I'm morally opposed to scrapping useful equipment and wish there was a way to prosecute those who are so wasteful with taxpayer purchased items. It's paid for by the public and should be available to members of the public when it is disposed of, otherwise I don't want my tax money paying for it.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2020, 02:58:36 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 24, 2020, 11:41:26 pmI'll respond to your last statement first; The big difference here is that the OP got a phone call whereas the OP of the 'Scary HP Letter" thread got a letter from a real lawyer. In fact several people on this forum got the same letter, including your's truely. The fact this OP got a phone call and not a visit from some kind of LE tells me that this is a scam.In response to your first statement: I got one of those letters too and that letter was never "legit" IMO even though it came from a lawyer. The Scary Letter claimed the items contained "HP Intellectual Property" and told the owners not to sell the item. There was no inference that the items were stolen, instead they implied that the owner's couldn't own the items that they had legitimately purchased due to containing IP. And we still don't know what the true story behind all of it was, someone, not HP and not the lawyer, speculated that the items had been fire damaged and that they were possibly damaged and that Agilent,now Keysight, was worried that the 10 year used items bearing the name HEWLETT PACKARD and sold by a surplus dealer would somehow damage Keysight's reputation! I guess the IP argument included the B&K meter that the lawyer included in the letter as well!While both of these events involve the purchase of used equipment and someone (not the seller) wanting it "back", the similarities end there.

author: mcovington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2020, 03:15:30 am
content: I think the really key thing is that you are doing well to have a lawyer, and in any case your local police should be involved. An "investigator" from you-don't-know-where might not be legitimate.It could well be legitimate, but they should have to convince your local police as well as you. If the property is really stolen, they need to report it stolen to the police having jurisdiction at your location.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2020, 03:50:15 am
content: I doubt that a single scope would be something the navy would track as missing unless it was part of a sting and maybe the seller of this scope was being investigated for much more than just a scope.I was in the US navy from 1968 to1972 most of the time aboard an aircraft carrier. Each type of airplane was in a semi-autonomous group that was only assigned to the ship for a single deployment. At the beginning of a deployment, the air wing squadrons got all new tools, parts test equipment and whatever they wanted and loaded it all aboard so as to not have to ship it halfway across the globe. Those of us that kept the ship running, what was called the engineering department, had to scrounge what we could and had limited budgets to buy things we might need. But there were lots of places to hoard stuff in such a big ship and hopefully a predecessor had stashed some good items out of sight of the squeaky clean and squared away ranks.When the ship was headed back to the US after a deployment, the aircraft were flown off the ship and sent to various naval air stations around the US and the support people packed up whatever support equipment to be shipped to where the planes were going. A couple of days before the ship was scheduled to reach port, tons and tons of perfectly good tools, parts etc. were dumped overboard because they didn’t want to bother with it.During the first deployment, I found out making friends with the air-wing maintenance people could pay big dividends in intercepting tools to be thrown overboard at the end of a deployment. (It was amazing what a bottle of booze would buy on a dry ship that had been at sea for many weeks.) Nobody seemed to track any of this stuff. I would only assume that when an air-wing would be assigned to a ship from a naval air base, they would just leave tons of stuff behind.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2020, 04:14:46 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on January 24, 2020, 11:38:17 pmHaving the stolen item is all that's required to have a change of receiving laid, it's just a bit of paper work. Sure, it might not stick IF you can afford the lawyer to defend you, eventually anyway.The only rights you actually have in the US are the ones you can afford to assert....

author: Marck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2020, 12:21:15 pm
content: I wonder if the item is legitimately stolen equipment that the Navy would want it back simply for secure destruction? Depending on who in the navy managed to loose this particular bit of TE.Sometimes it’s just easier to be agreeable in these situations once it’s proven as legitimate.I know that customers of the past have applied significant pressure to eBay sellers that have made the mistake of listing items that where able to be identified as belonging to them. Even though as a $$ value to the owners is close to 0.M

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 02:12:52 am
content: Sounds suspiciciously like the following:-"There is something wrong with your computer/I am from Windows","I am from Telstra, your phone is about to be cut off"or"This is the Australian Tax Office, there is a warrant for your arrest for non payment of back taxes, unless you send "X" thousand dollars to this account"All usually delivered in an Indian accent!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 02:42:58 am
content: If the claim that the item is the subject of a theft is legit, then (as I see it) it's value is, essentially, irrelevant. It is evidence.However, a verbal communication would be insufficient for me to hand it over. I would demand a paper trail - with provablebona fides.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 06:51:36 am
content: After four days of speculation, wouldn't it be nice to hear some facts from the OP how this matter progressed further?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 06:54:39 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 28, 2020, 06:51:36 amYeah and since when is it a o-scope not a CRO?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 07:05:38 am
content: they should send a car with some officers if its legit. they love to see the world and travel after allif someone gets off their ass to actually do something rather then send menacing emails, they might actually fix the problem. tell him you want to speak to an actual navy officer.. save the investigation some money instead of dealing with hourly billed 'investigator' contractors lol. for all you know someone is scamming/intimidating the supply housesomething along the lines of the officer who supervises the equipment etc

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 07:06:42 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on January 28, 2020, 06:54:39 amCultural differences. Don't be so parochial.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 12:10:36 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on January 28, 2020, 06:54:39 amFrom the description, it is a fairly modern DSO, so probably doesn't use a CRT, if so, by definition, it isn't a CRO.Edit:- I take it all back--- his previous "vintage" oscilloscope is very likely to be a CRO."o-scope" always sounds to me like a European term, though, & it does sound strange, coming from someone in the USA.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 06:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on January 25, 2020, 04:14:46 amHave you even been to the US? Or have you been in court in the US? I've defended myself twice in a US court and once sued someone else (again representing myself) and I've won every case and every time against a professional attorney. Court is like any other area of endeavor, you need to learn your subject and prepare yourself properly. EVERY county court house in America has afreepublic law library that is freely available to the public so there's no excuse not to be able to represent yourself, at least in this country.Contrary to your ill informed opinion, in the US youshouldn'tbe charged with receiving stolen property unless unless you knew, or had reason to believe, that the item was stolen when you bought it. Usually the worst that happens in the US is that the police will come and back the item back and return it to the lawful owner and the buyer is out his purchase price. But in that event, the buyer can go back and sue the seller.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 06:36:22 pm
content: Quotehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 07:36:16 pm
content: So you use Wikipedia for legal advice?Being "liable for the market value"of a stolen item is NOT the same thing as being criminally prosecuted for (possibly unwitting) possession of a stolen item!"the seller is liable " just means that the purchaser (and any subsequent purchasers) have to return the item to the legal owner (usually the case), or possibly, pay the owner the value of the item. I've already covered that.I don't see anything in that article that indicates that the buyer of a stolen article can be criminally prosecuted. In fact, nothing in that article even states that the thief can be prosecuted.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 11:06:15 pm
content: Stray Electron has it right. None of us are lawyers, and real lawyers would be hesitant to opine in this forum for a variety of reasons. Having said that I will point out that "unknowing possession of stolen property" went out the window when OP was notified. While there is still a chance that this is a fraud, not stolen property and due diligence is warranted in confirming that, in general from that notification on any actions that OP takes to retain possession are suspect. Lawyers love to answer questions like that. At their usual rate.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 11:18:11 pm
content: If it was me i would- Go into the navy and ask someone there to verify the story is genuine. They should be able to do that with some phone calls and should be happy to help verify that someone isn't pretending to be from the Navy.- If it was actually stolen give it back once you get some official paperwork on letterhead from Navy saying it was stolen and that you were forced to give it back to them.- Show this paperwork to Paypal. As others have said you should be within the window for a refund and i cant see them rejecting an offical letter from the navy.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2020, 11:54:45 pm
content: These would be my expectationsTo be asked to return something without financial reimbursement, would require a provision of proof to the person having to return the item.If that proof is not convincing then it needs to be verified in a court of law, resulting in a court order.Until the latter is provided the item should remain with the person who purchased it unless the item is itself an illegal item.All of the above should be carried out at the expense of the person or persons wanting the item returned.Anyone can make a claim, including police but the claim must surely be backed by law and the due process required by it

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 08:43:35 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 28, 2020, 02:12:52 amIf they catch me in the middle of an electronical troubleshootball breakerand I've tripped over something to get to the phone..I blast them with an awesome perfected drawling Indian accent that it's unethical and annoying to be cold calling a fellow cold caller,especially whilst in the middle of a heated cold call to a live prospect about to sign up for something they believe will save and or make them money.. ()The peaved, low life, phone glued, call center knuckle draggers always hang up----------------OP may be getting touched either by the seller or one of his mates running a 'return MIA property to Navy' scam and resell loop

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2020, 03:57:47 am
content: It's looking like posting on eevblog is not allowed from jail.What happened?

author: Szumi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 08:49:59 pm
content: One night we loaded up most of a AWG-10a radar, at least the part in the nose of a F-4J, in to my station wagon to take over to IMA maint as it suffered salt water damage from missing fasteners in panels. IMA was going to power it up on their test bench after we washed it in fresh water and set it to out dry on the flightline.My bud and I were hungry, we detoured to a 7-11 off base to get get some lunch (we were working midnights) on the way back to base it struck me that I probably shouldn't have done that.

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 08:57:55 pm
content: Did the OP intend this discussion to be scientific or philosophical?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 08:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: andy3055 on February 02, 2020, 08:57:55 pmHypothetical.