008004 - smaller than 01005 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 04:28:27 am
content: "When it becomes difficult to see whether or not you have a component at the pick position"....They had to redesign tape feeders and the tape peelback to accomodate these. Pretty insane. I soldered some 0201 bypass caps digikey mistakenly shipping me once but haven't tried 01005.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 04:34:50 am
content: Damn.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 06:58:42 am
content: personally, eeeeeeekprofessionally, yayyyy more microscope sales.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 10:43:42 am
content: I've soldered 01005 sans microscope with a tweezer before. Not really something I intend to do again.

author: opablo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 01:51:45 pm
content: About miniature components in general... (I have almost no experience with tiny smd...)What about resistance on the leads/traces ? does a tiny cap have lower-than-expected performance because it has considerable resistance on it's leads/traces ?Is there a table/sheet/rule where I can know about the resistances appearing on each size of smd ?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 02:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: opablo on April 04, 2013, 01:51:45 pm01005 is 8mil wide, the same as many small PCB traces, so I doubt it's much worse than the trace running to it. Not sure the exact dimensions of 008004. Obviously you won't be using these for critical high speed decoupling caps, but they're not exactly molecular.

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 02:09:33 pm
content: Step 1: Squeeze on some solder paste.Step 2: Sprinkle on an assortment of 008004 resistorsStep 3: Bake @ 240degrees for 300 seconds.Step 4: Trim excess ingredients.Step 5: Enjoy delicious electronics.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 02:10:24 pm
content: Definitely insane size for the experimenter...Even with high magnification microscope and holding tools for placement, it's Star-Trek auto assembly stuff;personally, I am to old to play with this size or any SMD... eyes and hand shake don't help; I'm sticking tothrough-hole, for my old age to grave.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 02:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: vlf3 on April 04, 2013, 02:10:24 pmYeah, that's a given. I do 0603 all the time, but my rule is that if it's indistinguishable from the dust on my bench, itisdust on my bench.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 02:27:11 pm
content: I remember when I did my first board with 0603's everything looked huge in the cad software, then I ordered the parts and thought I had made a mistake! lucky I didn't get carried away and go 0402Edit: for the record, wiki recons 01005 is .4mmx.2mm

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 03:03:31 pm
content: YES !More parts per square millimeter, high desnity interconnect, blind and buried vias , laserdrilling , plugged holes... Now pcb layout becomes interesting...

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 07:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 04, 2013, 03:03:31 pmFixed that for you.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 08:01:12 pm
content: 01005 resistors are only 1/32W. What is an 008004? 1/64W? That's just nuts. I wonder if they just vaporize when they pop.

author: megahz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 08:05:45 pm
content: pshhhh I can solder that with my eyes closed

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2013, 08:06:55 pm
content: In addition voltage derating for ceramic 008004's will probably be insane, even 0201s suffer a lot from that

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 01:24:38 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on April 04, 2013, 02:27:11 pmBeen there, done that.I bet the first one to use these extensively in high volume will be Apple. They make tiny logic boards and often have crazy designs constrains just to bring you certain feature like being 23% thinner and 10% lighter. Or a longer lasting battery, something like that. But let's not turn this into a flame war.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 01:29:49 am
content: Definitely in a cell phone first. Mine is about a year old and definitely has some SMD parts that would be best described as "powder".

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 01:48:31 am
content: The boards of today are shortly going to be the microchips of tomorrow.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 04:18:53 am
content: One more reason not to memorise resistor color bands.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 04:54:30 am
content: Yes, because 008004 can be used on a breadboard.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 05:26:26 am
content: These things are that small you'd be able to have the components mounted on midlayers, prepreg should be able to absorb the height fluctuations

author: mianchen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 05:47:44 am
content: what can the hobbyists do in 50years time when they want to learn some basic electronics?Sent from Mars

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 05:55:12 am
content: Quote from: mianchen on April 05, 2013, 05:47:44 amRadio-Shack (and/or Dick Smith in Australia) will release "My Home Wafer Fab", with a shout out to pioneer Jeri Ellsworth

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 06:38:07 am
content: Quote from: mianchen on April 05, 2013, 05:47:44 amImagine if we can print resistors/capacitors/transistors directly onto a substrate using something similar to an inkjet printer.No more soldering needed except as interconnects between boards. Even that could be done over fiber optics using printed organic leds and sensors.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 10:05:00 am
content: Where's Chris Gammell?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 10:17:59 am
content: I spent a few months on the design team of an early 3g mobile phone. It was full of thousands of 0201 components. I found that my hands were just about steady enough if my wrists were supported and I hadn't had a single beer for a couple of days.For anything smaller, I doubt I'd be able to cope.

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 10:22:08 am
content: I've just been to visit a company in Asia that produces stuff at this scale. They were able to make a module (bluetooth or something), the size of a QFN64 with 25 components in it. 3 were silicon die (a transceiver, a micro and a memory all wirebonded to the multilayer substrate), the rest passive's down to 01005. After making the module, they encapsulated it in epoxy so it looked just like an IC and even had the facility to use metal sputtering to coat it in a very thin layer of copper and stainless steel instead of fitting a screening can. Seriously impressive stuff, wouldn't fancy building the prototypes though!

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2013, 08:22:10 pm
content: Quote from: Codemonkey on April 05, 2013, 10:22:08 amPrototypes? Pfft, they'd probably just run it through TSMCSpice and say "she'll be right mate".

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2013, 12:51:04 am
content: Quote from: mianchen on April 05, 2013, 05:47:44 amBuy the latest 3D printer and make some basic components, wires and circuit boards.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2013, 02:05:02 am
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on April 06, 2013, 12:51:04 am

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2013, 02:08:35 am
content: I'm interested in what will happen with graphene being used for wires (due to better conductivity).I mean, you cant solder it, will we be crimping metal connectors onto graphene wires?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2013, 03:15:57 am
content: I think the common use of graphene "wires" is about as close as making heatsinks out of pure synthetic diamond (as diamond has much higher heat conductivity then any metal).Both are hard to make. In the case of Graphene, it is very hard make it with a good enough quality to reach the performance of metal conductors, let alone surpass it, and you couldn't solder to it.But it is good to know that carbon that can be recovered out of the air without digging a hole in the ground anywhere has these properties available once we become smart enough.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2013, 04:47:22 am
content: But that's the thing, graphene isn't that hard to make any more. You can make it with a CD drive.I reckon graphene will become very cheap/easy to make at industrial quantities in the next 5-10 years.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2013, 12:29:32 pm
content: I hope so. One thing is to make graphene and a very different thing is to make quality graphene that is reliable, easy to manufacture and most importantly economically viable.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2013, 09:26:07 am
content: If the graphene super-capacitor technology takes off we should see a lot of money invested in R&D as well as manufacturing processes.We really need a replacement for batteries, it's so overdue that it's not funny any more.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2013, 10:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on April 07, 2013, 09:26:07 amMight be able to make a decent electric car with that stuff.

author: opablo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 03:40:54 pm
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on April 05, 2013, 01:48:31 amMy idea of the future is similar to yours... I think the future of electronics miniaturization is not in component density in a pcb but in 3d circuits...Imagine 3d tetris pieces that represent components or conductors... organized into the circuit, not soldered, and submerged in a shrinking glue that isolates the interconections from the air/oxigen and press them together.As a hobbist I would like to, in the future, be able to order your own custom 3D hybrids and solder-up a cellphone using 30 components.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 04:56:12 pm
content: Quote from: opablo on April 10, 2013, 03:40:54 pmLTCC has been offering the 3d effect for a good few years, though there's plenty of issues preventing it becoming more common. It certainly isn't very serviceable.

author: lpc32
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 06:06:59 am
content: Ferrite beads incoming as well?

author: rexxar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 06:15:18 am
content: And I was getting worried about using 0402s on this boardDear god, you sneeze and half your components float out the window.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 06:19:51 am
content: Ferrite beads? If you thought saturating a "2A" ferrite bead at 100mA was useless enough, just try these -- they'll saturate on the DC bias of an LVDS signal!Tim

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 09:09:28 am
content: I think for the first few years this will be only used under CPU caps and other really small ceramic substrate applications, FR most likely. After that we just need a cogwheel machine to make our movements 10 times smaller, and a microscope so we will still be able to work with this.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 05:38:25 pm
content: I got myself a couple of cheap Chinese SMD practice boards to practice soldering. One of my ham club members did a presentation on SMD soldering and passed out strips of 0402 resistors to everyone. I tried soldering them on my practice boards. That is the limit for my SMD soldering of passives. I need a better tip for my Hakko 936 to do ICs well (I will take recommendations). I'm in my late 50's-still have steady hands but need plenty of magnification and light. I don't think I can do 0201s by hand and I certainly couldn't see anything smaller without a microscope.

author: tsmith35
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 06:00:35 pm
content: Wow, the 008004 is only 1/4 mm long x 1/8 mm wide. Tiny. For comparison, a single pixel on my 24" 1920x1200 monitor is 0.2692 mm, sotwo008004 components could fit on one pixel!Pixel table found atPrismo.

author: lpc32
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 06:54:04 pm
content: Yeah, desktop monitors suck.At least 4K is starting to happen, and hopefully it won't stop there.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 07:34:32 pm
content: Quote from: tsmith35 on April 22, 2014, 06:00:35 pmSo you can have a make your own monitor. Lay out a 24" PCB. Buy a little over 2 million 008004 LEDs of each color. And solder. For a while. A long while.Brought home some 01005 resistors from the Fuji booth at the APEX show, to show everyone that the 0402s that we have are not "crazy small". They are just small.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 08:11:50 pm
content: That is metric. 0.25mm long and 0.125mm wide. Basically fine pepper grains.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 08:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on April 22, 2014, 08:11:50 pmNo 01005 is 0402 in Metric. So is 008004 a 025013 or 0301 in Metric?

author: tsmith35
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 08:29:56 pm
content: Found the size info here...http://www.murata.com/new/news_release/2013/0924/index.htmlI'll say the metric size is 02500125M since 025013M would be rounded.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 08:44:46 pm
content: screw metric

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 09:04:49 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 22, 2014, 08:44:46 pmFTFY.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 11:36:26 pm
content: I wonder if, at some point, these types of components will be more economically embedded in the PCB as part of the fabrication process? Very fre people are going to have the tools to place these types of things, but if there were some sort of "inkjet" type printer that could dispense an amount of resist material to form traces, then you could order your board with the various resistances and capacitances (and inductances) you need printed into the PCB and make life a lot easier.Probably print transistors in too?

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 11:40:22 pm
content: Pretty sure PCB-embedded resistors are already a thing. Not sure about capacitors or transistors.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 11:58:41 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 22, 2014, 11:36:26 pmI thought it would be pretty neat to have a "3D printing" sort of process that handles glass composites (like FR4 and related materials), solid metals (build-up, electroplate, laminate-and-etch, etc.), and electromagnetically 'dense' composites (i.e., ferroelectric or ferromagnetic loaded). Placing chip components inside such a construction would probably be easy. You could not only build a very compact, dense circuit board, but do a lot of filtering and power handling without ever touching a discrete capacitor or inductor: even though the composites will have relatively low permeability/permittivity, it will still be enough for basic purposes. 40 pole Bessel filter to "brick-wall" your ADC input? No problem, it's just a bunch of tracks and goop!Main drawback I think, such a process would be incredibly slow and expensive, at least unless it became a massively mainstream process. The performance or density wouldn't quite be enough to justify it, even for cost-no-object projects. So, Catch-22...Tim

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 12:37:53 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 22, 2014, 11:36:26 pmAt the APEX show, I learned quite a bit from some PCB fab guys. Many are now using a fixed resistance layer. It replaces a copper layer and allows you to imbed series termination resistors as the actual trace, with a resistance given by trace width and length.

author: tsmith35
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 03:24:42 am
content: Yeah, the future is definitely well on its way. I wonder how long before 3D printed boards & components are integrated (printegrated?) into the devices they control...

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 03:33:19 am
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on April 22, 2014, 11:40:22 pmThere are embedded resistors (and caps - not sure about inductors), but I believe they are items that are physically placed on the layers during the fab process and I think it's still a very high-end process that only a few fab shops can do. I was thinking instead of some sort of printing process, either like a screen print or inkjet (selectively deposited) where PCB designers would be able to either spec the resistance/capacitance of an individual trace, or it could just be something we would add to our layer data so that instead of discrete larger components performing these functions, it could just become a commonplace part of any PCB fab.Then again, I am not sure how embedded components are handled now - anyone here done a board with embedded R/C parts? I'd be curious what software was used, what the physical size of the parts are, and what special voodoo magic is involved?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 09:05:05 am
content: Well we would need a very precisely controlled robotarm with vacuumtip for placement in our hobbyenvironment, who's gonna kickstart one

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 11:42:55 am
content: I had setup for a small production run a while ago, with 100s of SOT23s, TSSOPs, 0402s etc - and suddenly let out a HUGE sneezeinto the tray !! Had to pick out the parts one by one with tweezers and head mounted magnifier !!I got most back PLUS app 50% more - that turned out to be fly poo, dead flea parts, sand and various machining dust.Ended up cutting up the carpet and polishing back to the wooden floor. NEVER EVER had that happen with valves !!

author: 6E5
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 04:09:26 pm
content: I'm very worried that over the next 30 years, through hole components will become rare and expensive. I'll stop using those in hobby projects over my dead body, SMD is just a headache. And don't get me started on DIP ICs. I'll go down as low as SOC, and don't get me started on BGA...In short, I love through holes and DIPs

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 06:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 23, 2014, 03:33:19 amThat exist. Even Dave found it in a 20 year old something, and everyone was surprised why would anyone use that technology.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 07:14:05 pm
content: Microwave parts are basically shaped copper parts, and cheap calculators and cash registers use printed resistors to save cost.

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 07:20:34 pm
content: May need to think up an assembly robot to continue hobby on this size scale.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 07:29:39 pm
content: Quote from: 6E5 on April 23, 2014, 04:09:26 pmI don't understand why so many people are against SMD, It's not like 0603 and bigger is going anywhere, and a TSSOP is easier to solder then a DIP so to me the old fogey view that DIP and PTH and giant projects are the only way for a hobbyist to be happy is baloney.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 08:06:38 pm
content: I'm an old fogey. Through holes and dip are garbage to me nowI'm much happier with SMD and soldering from the top, rather then bending leads, putting them in holes, flipping the board over trying to hold it so it doesn't fall out, and trying to put a little bend in the leads so it stays..I've had 30 years of soldering through holes... I like SMD much, much, better...

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 08:13:53 pm
content: I like SMD to a point. When your resistor shoots across the room, because you didn't have the tweezers just right when you applied pressure, it gets annoying.I just wish I could use some lead. Just a little lead. I was trying to do all my prototyping in lead-free to get used to it. Just finished soldering on a tiny reset switch between a test pad and ground. Couldn't get one connection to go. Cleaning, flux, nothing. Pulled out my roll of 63/37. First try. I miss that stuff.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 09:22:08 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on April 23, 2014, 08:13:53 pmYou could use lead if you wanted (unless your selling to the EU market...)

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2014, 10:18:04 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on April 23, 2014, 09:22:08 pmWe will be distributing worldwide.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2014, 04:36:22 am
content: You can still prototype with lead. Just manufacture with lead-free .

author: 6E5
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2014, 04:44:37 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on April 23, 2014, 07:29:39 pmSure, for final versions SMDs are ok, and I sometimes find myself using them, but when you do some physical prototyping, through hole is the way to go. You can only get so far in SPICE.If someone could figure out how to make a SMD breadboard, and make it easy to use as a traditional type, maybe I'll change my mind.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2014, 08:18:47 am
content: Quote from: 6E5 on April 24, 2014, 04:44:37 amThere are a lot of ic's that are no longer even sold in through hole versions and that need some sort of ground plane. So if you look at our engineers they use a copperplate or blank pcb and solder everything on there with teflon wires in 3D even the smd chips (for the extreme small ones they use prototype boards). But as soon as possible they start with real pcb's to start the EMC process. Four versions later they are finished.So for hobbieists it is already a giant leap that since a couple of years pcb prototyping is in the very affordable region (<$20 for 3 pieces) but the only annoyance is the shipping time and costs (multiples of the order costs if you want it reliable and fast, or weeks of time if you want it cheap).So the next step would be to have these cheap pcb prototyping firms in each country with local shipping, I keep on hoping

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2014, 10:08:01 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on April 24, 2014, 08:18:47 ampcbtrain in the UK provide sensible service at reasonable rates.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2014, 11:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: 6E5 on April 24, 2014, 04:44:37 amI use to have a good setup to make my own pcb's and have to say that going to smd was the best thing ever as I didn't have to work around not having the facilities for plated through holes. At most all I had to do was refrain from placing vias under components....and now with reflow ovens and cheap stencils...

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 04:01:00 am
content: 10 copies of a 2"x2" 2 layer board for $10 doesn't even make that prospect particularly attractive anymore. What is the world coming to?

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 05:09:45 am
content: Quote from: scientist on April 25, 2014, 04:01:00 amAgreed.I used to make my own boards in the past, but not anymore. I rarely need a boardright now, so I can wait for the turnaround from ChinaIt just makes more sense; the quality is better than I could ever make, there is no need for me to keep chemicals around, and the expense of the entire setup is rarely, if ever, cheaper than China now.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 07:43:10 am
content: These weenie components will be not problem - if you have the right tools and practice.I remember years ago a bunch of RMIT lecturers visited our IBM plant and complained about SMT at a time when most SOICs had a generous 50 thou (1.27mm) pitch. Today components are a lot more dense, and most technicians and engineers have have no problem hand soldering 0402 components and the like - it just takes practice and GOOD TOOLS.About 8 years ago I worked with a project manager who proclaimed the old saying "A bad workman blames his tools." That is complete and utter,,! If you don't have the correct tools there are some jobs in electronics YOU CANNOT do well no matter how skilled you think you are. Examples of crappy tools:Buggy compilers.Hobbyist soldering irons.Fat solder with old flux.Insufficient lighting.Inadequate optical aids.Low quality circuit diagrams.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 12:29:03 pm
content: I've soldered thousands of 0402, and a good few 0201, but so often when changing an 0201 then I'd damage the pad. I don't think I've got the co-ordination to do anything smaller. Even with 0201, if I'd had a couple of beers the night before I'd save the soldering for the next afternoon, mornings I'd have too much handshake, even when resting my hands on the bench as I worked.