Best printer for toner transfer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 08:01:44 am
content: I have used toner transfer method for sometime to make PCB prototypes. I have used Samsung SCX3205 as my laser printer. It seems to work pretty ok, but it is getting old I want to get new even better printer for toner transfer method.Main issue with Samsung printer has been large metal areas, which can have some holes. I think it is mainly due to uneven toner amount on the press n peel film. I have been able to make 100-150um lines and gaps with my Samsung.I'm looking for alternatives to upgrade my printer and further enhance the quality of prototypes. I think I need printer with 1200dpi resolution. I have been looking for Xerox phaser 3330 and HP LaserJet Pro M304a. Anyone has any experience of these?I think toner has significant impact to quality. I believe that lower melting point of toner would help. Does anyone has any experience of LED vs. laser printer?I have also considered old Xerox colorqube printers, but I don't have access to any of those. I could get refurbished one, but I have impression that I cannot make thin 100um lines with solid ink printer even though resolution is 2400dpi. Anyone has used Colorqube for PCB prototypes?

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 12:06:11 pm
content: My only experience has been negative, but recently discovered it was due to my Brother printer. The toner would not transfer. Look forward to hearing about suitable printers.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 12:31:05 pm
content: The printer isn't that important, it's the toner which matters. Some types of toner work great, some are ok, and others don't work at all. In some cases an alternative toner cartridge can be better than a genuine one. And if you found the right one, the vendor could change the toner type in a few years, but that's less likely for genuine toner cartridges.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 12:33:27 pm
content: making a professionnal pcb is so cheap today that I don't bother anymore with making my pcb at home.not speaking of the disposal of chemical acids.I would better invest in a small cnc to make small pcb quickly by milling, but not a toner transfert method.

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 01:45:31 pm
content: I have read that Brother toner has some issues and it does not work. I'm not sure about latest printer models, if the toner has changed.I want to use original toners, since I believe the quality is more consistent.I will make mainly flexible PCB, which cannot be done with PCB mill. Or can we?I will make my pcb by myself, because it is much faster.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 06:44:27 pm
content: I was told by the makers of the Pulsar paper that one of the best (and now cheap) printers to get is the HP-2300 (second hand, obviously), using OEM toner only. I have had fantastic results with it.BUT!!!! - large black areas (ground fills) are a no-no with toner transfer, even with a good printer. Laser printers simply don't "do" large filled black areas that well. As a workaround, try a cross-hatch pattern instead. If you really need large ground planes, photographic methods are better.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 06:57:55 pm
content: Many laser/LED printers use toner save modes that can be turned off.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 01:24:12 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on June 01, 2020, 06:57:55 pmThe "no large black areas" also applies to photocopiers. Try it!I don't fully understand why there is this limitation with this technology... maybe it has something to do with it not being possible to fully charge such a large are of the toner drum surface (which picks up the toner particles electrostatically where it has been exposed to light).

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 02:57:06 am
content: yeah, that's basically it. When I was doing toner transfer, I would just take some toner powder, mix it in acetone and paint the areas that weren't completely covered. Problem solved. That and a bunch of other problems pushed me to get my boards made by a PCB fab. Haven't looked back in regret at all.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 05:59:41 am
content: I'm often in the "I need my PCB right now, and I only need one" camp too, so I understand the pain of fighting the printers. Also, fairly often I do some etchings in brass sheets, so having a setup and procedure figured out has this added benefit.Anyway, I use Lexmark MX310. It also struggles with large areas, but that is something I can easily fix by applying toner foil such as this:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32835703005.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.70d17f2639vuE0&algo_pvid=4ce922c3-dd3d-4d9a-915d-fb26f7f0a320&algo_expid=4ce922c3-dd3d-4d9a-915d-fb26f7f0a320-0&btsid=0ab6fab215910771593551508e743f&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_When passed through a laminator it sticks only to toner and provides better etch resist and fills in the tiny holes where toner didn't cover. It's been my mandatory step ever since I found out about it.It is also good for UV methods which I use for brass sheets.

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 07:03:30 am
content: Thank you for good improvement ideas.About the problem of laser printing of large metal areas. I wonder if anyone has used color printer to overcome the issue? If I would use some kind of grid of different toner colors, then I don't actually print single large metal area. According to my understanding, color laser printer just has several laser printers in serial.I haven't try to make my own fixing ink from toner and acetone. I have used silver paint pen to fill some holes when needed. This pen will dissolve some of toner. I think most of my holes are very small and there are so many, that manual fixing would be huge effort. Press n Peel film has this blue stuff, which I think will protect toner a bit. Acetone will dissolve blue stuff as well. Anyway, I have to try.Lexmark MX310 seems to be discontinued. Lexmark ink seems to work.Anyone used Xerox?Based on this site, Xerox is the best:http://nerdclub-uk.blogspot.com/2015/05/press-n-peel-toner-printing-test.htmlI have been using Press n peel so far. Pulsar has similar paper, but you have to laminate separately this green film on top. I guess the green film is actually similar to this hot stamping foil.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:39:20 am
content: Has anyone else tried heating the paper or film just before it's printed to?With My HP 6L, lowering the moisture content increases the toner transfer from the drum, resulting in better large area fills.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:59:31 am
content: I've not found the green foil to be necessary as long as there are no large black areas.Note that when I say "large black areas" I am talking about pretty much filling an entire 8 inch by 10.5 inch rectangle with black! - That becomes too thin to rescue with any method, including spraying toner fixer, laminating green foil, or whatever.You can of course have reasonably sized black fills on a small PCB in the middle of an otherwise blank page...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 11:18:53 am
content: Another way to deal with large solid black areas is to us a toner enhancement spray.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 11:44:07 am
content: This is from 2014. Anybody here tried direct PCB laser printing, where the toner is deposited on the copper clad by laser printer?

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 12:01:24 pm
content: I have been thinking of keeping my press n peel films in oven, but I have not ever tested it. I have bee afraid that they will stick together or some other way damaged. As moisture has big impact for example 3D printing filaments, it probably helps toner transfer method as well. 24h at +60C would work?"Large black area" for me is about 20mm x 20mm square.I have not used and heard about toner enhancement spray. It sounds like something which will dissolve toner, which might reduce resolution. Where I can find this kind of spray?I have actually done some testing by printing toner directly to flexible board. Image was transferred, but it has even more holes. I didn't test that method further, since it sounds a bit risky for your printer.Xerox has something called EA toner:https://www.office.xerox.com/latest/SUPWP-01.pdfIt sounds pretty good for toner transfer method (more accurate and lower temperature). I'm not sure if anyone has tested?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 12:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: rfguy2020 on June 02, 2020, 12:01:24 pmReichelt sells TVD LF-A. Or you could use Solvent 50 which is meant to remove labels/stickers but also works great as toner enhancer. I'm using Solvent 50 for my layouts printed on tracing paper.

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 12:27:12 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 02, 2020, 12:22:20 pmDoes it reduce resolution?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 01:27:41 pm
content: Not that I'm aware of it. But I'd guess, if you have a single white dot (>=600dpi) inside a large black area it would vanish.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 01:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: rfguy2020 on June 02, 2020, 12:27:12 pmIf it does, it isn't by much. As long as you don't "wash" the PCB in it (like running streams of liquid) it will just evaporate in place and not move anything around.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 01:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 02, 2020, 11:18:53 amFor smaller values of large solid black areas I have found that toner spray does help remove pinholes.It won't cure a really large solid black area that doesn't have enough toner on it in the first place, due to the limitations of the electrostatic drum printing method.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 02:07:56 pm
content: Eco printing (toner saver) mode enabled or disabled? Draft or high quality mode?

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 02:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 02, 2020, 01:32:52 pmI use heat transfer foil to address pinholes. A little extra work but the end product is always better.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 02:22:05 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 02, 2020, 02:07:56 pmEverything turned to the max amount of toner possible, highest resolution, maximally dark. It works beautifully on everything you throw at it, except very large black fills.I have tried this on several different printers and photocopiers. If you try to copy or print a 10.5" by 8" black square, there isn't any electrostatic toner based machine that I tried (including large Xerox machines at print shops etc.) that will make a completely black copy - it appears to be a limitation of the technology.The only workaround that I have found is this: Print the outline of the black area, and fill in the black area some other way (Sharpie, for example).

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 02:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: Wimberleytech on June 02, 2020, 02:17:56 pmCan your printer actually do a 10.5" by 8" black rectangle that works to etch a PCB - with or without foil? If so, you own the Holy Grail of lasers!I've found that every time I try that, the toner gets so thin it can't be rescued by transfer foil or anything else.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 02:28:21 pm
content: Quote from: rfguy2020 on June 02, 2020, 12:01:24 pmI don't think that would be a problem on my printer, which prints VERY dark and rich on smaller areas. I'll try it later on today just for fun, let's see what we get!

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 03:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 02, 2020, 02:07:56 pmThe idea is to convince the printer to use as much toner as possible, so enough toner will end up on the PCB.For that, disable any "eco friendly", any "toner saver", any "grey dithering", and any "draft" settings. Use "high quality", "high contrast" or "presentation" settings. If manual adjustment is allowed, make the printer to pour more toner.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 02:05:47 am
content: Has anyone tried a Kyocera printer for toner transfer?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:32:08 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on June 01, 2020, 12:33:27 pmAbsolutely not. PCB milling is a pain in the ass.The toner transfer method works greatif done properly. This means buying real toner transfer paper, not old catalog pages, using a proper laminator, not a freaking clothes iron, and real etchant, not witches brews of acids and peroxide. Done that way, I can consistently etch clean 10 mil (0.25mm) traces, and probably thinner, I just haven’t tried yet.At some point, I do wanna try the acetone vapor approach to improving density of large fills. They also make solvent sprays specifically for this purpose.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 03, 2020, 06:32:08 amI found that the toner spray idea did make the toner smoother and more even, but was unable to make up for there not being enough toner present on large black areas in the first place.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:54:43 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 01, 2020, 12:31:05 pmLike Moffy, I had one of the few cheap Brother printers which did not work for toner transfer. I think most of their printers are the same flavor of vanilla as all the others, but there are/were a few with a higher melting point toner.Dumping/refilling a cartridge with generic toner powder worked for a pretty long time.* But the toner did cumulative damage to the printer. The print quality degraded over time, until the printer was useless. Swapping back to normal Brother toner didn't fix it, so I guessed it was the drum, at the time. You could buy replacement drums for that particular model; they were separate from the toner cartridges. But I ended up buying a new printer for different reasons, so I don't know if that would have fixed it, for sure. But the drum is the only other easily replaceable part, and it cost $100, IIRC... so in any case, the toner might be what matters, but your printer might not like normal toner. I recall trying to carefully clean the drum, but I didn't get anywhere.*It lasted maybe the most of one full refill cartridge? I was also using a lot of magazine paper at the time. I don't know; maybe that affected the printer?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:12:02 pm
content: Mind you that to me, the bottom copper layer of a mostly single-sided board up to maybe 3x4" is what qualifies as a large solid area of resist. I initially experienced pin-holing in these solid areas using some types of toner transfer paper and methods. But they largely disappeared when I did 2 things.I pre-etch my boards to give the surface a porous texture, then I transfer at a very high temperature to ensure the toner is fully melted to liquid. The Pulsar paper comes off with water and leaves no fibers. Because of the pre-etch, there are no smudges or fattened traces. This method makes for a near 100% success rate for the transfer. The transfer will look just a tiny bit ragged on the edges under a loupe, but after the etch is done, the board is just as good and usually better, compared to a low temp transfer that has crisper edges after the transfer is done but will often have more ragged traces by the time the etch is complete (usually in only select spots, while most of the board is great). The pre-etched hi temp transfer looks worse, but what you see is what you will get.I also got away from acid peroxide and onto proper cupric etchant.So I'm not sure if it was one or the other or maybe both having an effect. But for w/e reason, I no longer get pinholes in solid pours. I had some of that green foil stuff, quite a bit in fact, for which I paid good money. And I binned it. Including an unopened package. That's how little difference it makes to me, now. It wasn't worth even the little space it takes up, not even for an emergency-has-to-be-right board. The foil step was now extraneous/redundant, as far as I was concerned, at the time.Check your print, carefully. And check your resist, after the transfer. It might be a little different, depending on your methods. Label backing paper in particular might have some issues with the print itself. But on many transfer papers, I think you'll find a pretty good print. So while a problem perhaps exists, where larger solid areas reach some limit of toner density due to printer technology, there are potentially other more imortant factors which you may be able to affect in the rest of your process.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 12:09:49 am
content: KL27x, you say you transfer at high temp? How exactly do you do that?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 06:23:45 am
content: Quote from: moffy on June 04, 2020, 12:09:49 amI took the plastic cover off my laminator, so I can shoot the board with a 1200W heat gun at full blast right as the board enters the laminator. I have measured temp of a piece of 4x6" 0.06" FR-4 board exiting the back of the laminator at 260F, max, after several passes. With the heat gun blasting it, it exits out the back of the laminator at about 360F. Even at full blast, slowly waving the heat gun over the board at point blank, it causes no damage on regular size boards. With the super thin stuff (0.007" thick FR-4), I have to back off just a touch, else the paper thin board will bubble.So the deal is, I pre-etch the board by dipping it in my cupric chloride etchant for a few seconds, let it drip dry for 5-10 seconds, then dunk the board in tap water. Dry it off with the heat gun. While it's still warm, put the paper on and run it thru the laminator once, leaving the heat gun to warm up on full blast. Then I shoot the board with the heat gun on the second and final pass through the laminator. I have the habit of flipping the board on the second pass to blast the opposite side from the transfer paper (Pulsar). But when I do a double-sided board, I shoot directly over the paper on the second pass, and that works fine, too.It doesn't matter how hot the board/paper gets.I just screwed a wood board to the bottom of the laminator for a base, to make it stable, and I used it like that for 8-9 years. I finally enclosed the mess of loose wires, switch, twist on terminals, and LED board into an MDF housing over the side of the laminator, seeing as it has lasted this long and doesn't seem any worse for the wear.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 06:32:23 am
content: Thanks KL27x for the info, sounds interesting. I was looking for cupric chloride in Australia and it doesn't look to be very available. What do you think then of Ferric chloride?

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 06:49:33 am
content: The remaining green liquid after a batch of ferric chloride has been well used is cupric chloride. That's why the mix seems to keep etching PCBs although rather slowly.Spent H2O2/HCL mix is also cupric chloride.After a lot of reading, I'm still not totally certain how to maintain a cupric chloride solution, apart from knowing that it needs some time between uses to regenerate by absorbing oxygen and adding some HCL occasionally.Warm, it will etch a PCB in 8 minutes for me.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 06:55:10 am
content: Quote from: moffy on June 04, 2020, 06:32:23 amFerric chloride is excellent.Quote from: xavier60 on June 04, 2020, 06:49:33 amMaking/having cupric chloride and actually etching with cupric chloride are 2 different things. If you put peroxide in it, you are technically etching (a little bit) with cupric chloride, but 95+ percent of your board is being etched by acid peroxide, directly. The cupric reaction is completely bypassed. So you can't get professional-level etching with cupric chloride unless you try a little harder than that; you are probably best to use ferric or ammonium persulfate if you want to get really good etch quality. There's no way cupric will etch a board in 8 minutes; that's the acid peroxide talking.I use air-regenerated cupric. This requires a very large surface area of contact with air. In my case, I achieve this with a very high volume of very fine bubbles. I ran out of hydrogen peroxide about 5 years ago. I used up the last of it cleaning cupric stains off concrete. No peroxide ever gets added to my cupric etchant. There's no point. Peroxide will recharge cupric, instantly. But a fully charged tank of cupric will etch barely more than diddly squat; it's the peroxide in there that makes your neon green "cupric" etch. Real cupric is opaque spinach green, very dark, while it is etching. And it is much slower. It takes me at least 15 minutes to etch even a half oz board. 1 oz takes about 30-45 minutes.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 07:14:01 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on June 04, 2020, 06:55:10 amI adopted your heatgun tip from an earlier discussion about toner transfer and it's been working fine for a while now. It's especially effective on thicker boards, but I'm getting nowhere near 360F (180C). I get good transfer when my IR thermometer says 80+ C (180F). It's just a cheap ebay thermometer, but the boards are "barely-able-to-hold-by-edges" hot, so I believe the thermometer is at least in the right ballpark. The difference may be that I use vinyl foils for transfer, not paper. They're cheap, available anywhere, double duty as sticky tape, and most importantly available in transparent and translucent versions, which is great for double sided boards.I also tried your pre-etch tip, but got miserable results. The difference is I used hydrochloric acid + peroxide, so that might be the reason for failure, and on that note, I know it's quite a job, but I'd like to ask you if you would mind writing up a step by step guide for all things cupric chloride related (chemical aspects of initial production, etching and maintaining, as well as etching process, storage). Just like xavier, I tried making sense of it but different articles on the net got me confused.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 07:23:26 am
content: I haven't added hydrogen peroxide to it since I started my batch of cupric chloride 3 years ago, HCL only.Before I started pre-etching, I had this annoying problem, I think caused by the detergent I was using to clean the PCB.At the start of etching, I could see shiny patches on the copper that would eventually take way longer to etch than most of the PCB resulting in areas of over etching.Now I give the PCB a quick scrub with stainless steel wool then maybe 10 seconds of pre-etch. I repeat if the copper doesn't have uniform matte appearance.EDIT: The SG of my batch is now 1.154

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 07:32:53 am
content: DomagojT:Well, I couldn't get a consistent reading off bare copper with my IR gun. I was measuring on bare FR-4, not copper clad. I dunno if that makes the difference in temp you're seeing. But so-hot-you-can-barely-hold-it-by-the-edges sounds exactly right.If you don't do the pre-etch, you must get some smearing, though? I don't know how other etchants will work for this part, though.Cupric? There's tons of info out there. Just one part people get wrong. Everything seems to think that adding peroxide is ok. It's only ok if you're ok with etching with acid peroxide and getting the etch-accuracy of acid peroxide. Which, on the scale of proper etchants, can't really get any worse. It's as bad as it gets.I'm no expert; I just know what works for me. I use a plastic bubble wand, the kind that makes a fine bubble curtain in an aquarium. I run compressed air through this wand, regulated to somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 psi. And it makes mad fine bubbles. A 125 psi 5 gallon air tank will run 10" section of this wand for about an hour. This 10" section of bubblewand is at the bottom of a thin, vertical etch tank.Using this setup, I etch a 1 oz board in about 30-45 minutes. A half oz board takes maybe 15-20 minutes. I don't know how good I'm running; maybe cupric can etch much faster, yet. But I don't know how xacier60 is etching anything in 8 minutes using plain cupric. I'm pretty sure cupric will never be as fast as ferric, even.Yeah, I wet scrub the board with a large gauge stainless steel wool and a dab of dish soap, then rinse, then pre-etch, then rinse again, then blowdry. Yes, the pre-etch screens out oil spots; if the board is clean, it will be a uniform color (kinda peachy/rosy, with my etchant), if you blow-dry it. (If you let it air dry, it will turn black with white/green streaks; and that works fine, too; just don't wait too long before transferring, or the surface will start to disintegrate into powder).

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 08:08:30 am
content: I was being overly conservative. I have just test etched a small scrap of 1 oz PCB in 7 minutes.Temperature makes a large difference to etching rate. I float my sloshing container in hot tap water.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 08:39:15 am
content: I measure the temperature of the backing paper (vinyl foil is laminated to regular or tracing paper), so while accuracy is questionable, the consistency should be there and I shouldn't be getting reflections from metal surface.No, I don't get smearing unless I overdo it with the heat gun, but at that point I'm approaching the bubbling point of FR4. Since I apparently don't need such high temperature anyway, I don't risk it.Can you leave it unsupervised for majority of the 30-45 minutes etch, or do you need to babysit it? Do you get undercutting?Do you need to bubble the etchant after/before the etch to revitalize it, or is it enough to bubble it during etching alone?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 08:46:55 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on June 04, 2020, 08:08:30 amSearch for the "PCB etching ziplock bag sponge" or similar. Works without heating, etches insecondsinstead of minutes, uses only a teaspoon of ferric chloride, no mess and no need to clean the etching tray or tank afterwards, and so on.Something similar with this, except you can put a small piece of dishwashing sponge and the PCB inside a (ziplock) plastic bag, then dispose the bag and the sponge:

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 08:57:25 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on June 04, 2020, 08:08:30 amI don't do heaters, so there's that. But in the summer, I'm peaking out at upwards of 110F.Love the internet: hot tap water should apparently be no hotter than 120F in my country.I also run my tank lean on acid. Higher acid increases the etch rate fairly significantly, IIRC. But it also decreases the etching accuracy. My internet source was some paper by a guy name.. Sechel? Something like that.*** My own experience is limited and biased, but it seems to match. I routinely run my tank devoid of acid. I can tell because the etching hits a wall, but also the head on the etchant grows and bubbles over like crazy (adding acid at this point looks like a Gas-X commercial). The etchant will also locally turn blue where you squirt in plain water, when the acid is really low/out. I use maybe a turkey baster of 30% HCl per 6x9" panel, depending on the coverage. I routinely add some acid just before etching each successive board, and/or during etching if the process stalls out.*** I found ithttp://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/CuCl2.htm; but in fact, Seychell's entire paper entirely ignores accuracy and is focused on speed, alone; the only con he seems to mention regarding excess acid is the amount of fumes. Adam Seychell's focus on etching speed may have got some people off track. And his estimations for amount of recharged etchant needed to etch a given area of 1 oz copper appear to be extremely optimistic to me, but maybe that was affected by acid concentration.*%* From the opening statement, it seems like he wrote this specifically with the idea of a hobbyist using a vertical bubble tank for strictly air-regeneration, but he never describes what is requires to achieve this in practice. Many people believe you throw an aquarium bubbler in there, and you're good to go. That will work if you use a 2-3 gallon tank for a small board once every day or 2. For a vertical etching tank, 2-3 gallons is pretty big. And when you're done with the corrected revision, a day or 2 is a long time to wait to spin the new board. Most of us might only etch boards once or twice a year, if that. But when we are doing it, we're sometimes burning the candle on both ends to solve problems that need to be solved. Air regeneration is simply not practical with an aquarium pump. It would be appropriate for tiny-scale, regular production, of a same-board-a-day, or whatnot. But we don't work like that. A big part of the allure of toner transfer is you are completely free to make mistakes and immediately fix them. Ordering boards, there are a lot of details you might forget and then remember after submitting the order. Or you might not notice your obvious mistake until you receive the boards, week or 3 later.Quote from: Domagoj T on June 04, 2020, 08:39:15 amI have never even set a timer; the boards are fine to sit in there for an extra hour, even. The traces start to get thinner, but it is a long time before there are any problems with my 8/8 boards. The traces get thinner, but thinner all over, and not more ragged. It's crazy. I have forgotten a board overnight, once. Obviously, the air ran out after the first 1-1.5 hours. The board was ruined and most of the resist was floating at the top. But a lot of the traces were still there, only they were 2 mils thick. I will never get anything looking like a rat chewed on it; it doesn't happen.It's enough to bubble it during etching, alone. But if you wanted to, it takes maybe (wild guess) 5 to 7 minutes for my fine bubble blaster to turn the cola in my 0.4L tank back to mountain dew.* So if you wanted to get a little head start on the next board, I suppose you might bother to regenerate it. In a matter of weeks, it will regenerate on its own, just sitting there.Adam Seychell: "If you want to be pedantic then the solution can be aerated after each etching job until the color is a completely transparent bright green, i.e. Cu1+ concentration << 1 g/L."*So my system isn't going to win any races, but it finishes a board on one setup/air-tank, unsupervised, and that's where I stopped caring. So I don't know how much faster you could get with better regeneration. The original plan, using a top end fish tank bubbler, it did not do the job. I think those only get up to 4 psi, or so. Using an aquarium pump to put air through either a tube with holes or stone or wand, nope. That doesn't regenerate the cupric for squat. It took hours to recharge a tank vs minutes with the higher volume of finer bubbles I get with compressed air/wand. I couldn't practically etch anything without adding peroxide, using wimpy bubblers... yield was terrible on fine pitch boards... and yet it took me months or maybe even years before I was convinced of this, myself, that the majority of the internet is completely wrong, thinking you can etch with cupric... then recharge it, after; uhhh, no. Unless you use a relatively enormous quantity of etchant for the board.edit:http://www.chemcut.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Chemcut_Bulletin_8_Cupri_Chloride_Proces_-Parameters.pdfAccording to this info, increasing free acid increases the etch speed, but it also proportionally increases the amount of relative undercutting. Temperature changes the etch speed, but it has essentially no effect on undercutting. So running at 130-160F will increase the speed, if your equipment can handle it. But for a home user doing one-offs, a heater might not matter as much. The specific gravity apparently hardly effects speed at all, as long as you're within a wide band. And it, also, has almost no effect on undercutting. According to this link, you can etch a 1 oz board in something around 100 seconds** using cupric chloride in a heated spray etcher. Cu2 vs Cu1 is measured with an electrical probe in order to determine the amount of regenerative agents added in the recharging loop (chlorine gas or 35% peroxide), and the tank is run with some Cu1 left in there, to prevent excess reagent from being added (excess chlorine gas would escape into the atmosphere; excess H2O2 would turn the etchant into mountain dew acid peroxide). So for a home user trying to get the best possible accuracy and not concerned too much with absolute speed: keep the acid down, don't put peroxide in there, and be patient. Heater can technically increase speed, but air regeneration rate will inevitably be the weak link, anyways. As long as the etchant is not frozen, it will etch boards at a rate at least comparable to warm ammonium persulfate, at the worst; it'll take longer when it's cold, but accuracy will not be affected; it won't be practically unusable, like cold ammonium persulfate etchant.** I think with spray etching, you will perhaps be able to keep a higher concentration of Cu2:Cu1 on the surface of the board? I mean, you are continually flooding the surface of the board with near-fullly charged etchant. It would also be reasonable to assume there will be a higher rate of atmospheric oxidation of copper; hence there could be more etching via acid directly dissolving copper oxides.;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;*%* Let's examine closer. From his paper, Seychell states you should be able to etch half-coverage 1 square decimeter of 1oz copper with 1.6L of charged etchant. Who knows if this means etch time of hours or more, due to scraping the bottom of the barrel at the end? But anyhow, a square decimeter is 15.5 square inches. A 4x6" board is 48 square inches, double-sided. So it should take... 4.9 L of charged cupric to etch an average 4x6" double-sided 1 oz board. This is 1.3 US gallons.6x9" double-sided (I do this size, regularly) would take 11.15L, or 3 US gallons. My tank holds ~3.4% of that. With my setup, it's all about the regeneration, because this is the only way it is practical (i.e. 99% of us should stick with ferric or acid peroxide; and yeah, you can call it etching with cupric, if you like). With 3.4% of the volume, I can crank out these boards in succession if and when needed. Refill the air, swap the boards, add some acid and water (1 turkey baster of acid vs 3 more gallons of green koolaid).

author: Pawelr98
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 01:25:52 pm
content: Myself I use an Ricoh Aficio SP 100 I got for free from my uncle.OEM toner I guess (never changed it, I only use it for PCB making).For toner transfer I use an old soviet iron, which is set to blazing hot temperatures.Beeing old it's rather heavy and has a flat surface (no steam holes or anything modern irons have).After making the transfer I just peel away the paper while still hot.Other people recommend soaking the paper in water but the hot method is quicker and easier.Any imperfections I fix using a pen marker.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 08:58:24 am
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on June 04, 2020, 08:39:15 amInteresting. I wonder if the vinyl seals against a clean board, keeping the melted toner in place?And when you tried the pre-etch, perhaps the porous surface leaked (or sucked in via capillary action) some of the toner from out of this perfect "mold?" I previously mentioned my transfers definitely gain some fuzz around the edges vs a "normal transfer." But nothing that really shows up much after the etch (and I mean under a microscope). It sounds like your high temp + vinyl method leaves very clean edges, comparable to the "normal transfer."I suppose the paper is on the back? To help feed through the printer? I bet it helps to keep the vinyl from melting, too. It sounds like it's holding up pretty well, though, to the heat gun.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 10:45:37 am
content: Yeah, for one sided boards I print the artwork on plain A4, then stick the self adhesive vinyl only over the area where the artwork is and print again on that same paper. I do this because as the PCB gets larger it gets trickier to stick the vinyl to the paper without creases and bubbles (standard 10 x 15 cm / 4'' x 6'' is not a problem, but for bigger boards it is fiddly). For double sided PCBs I again pront on paper, but then lay tracing paper over that and stick the vinyl on the tracing paper. Simply because it makes aligning much easier.Vinyl sticks to the PCB but only lightly (comes off without tearing or stretching), and after transfer it does appear as if it's pressed to accommodate the thickens of toner, so it might be sealing.When I tried pre-etch, I got splotchy copper surface that toner wouldn't stick to reliably, so a lot of traces wouldn't transfer.Anyway, this is what I can achieve without any special precautions. I don't have any raw boards around at the moment, so this assembled on will do (I should really clean the flux a bit better):The thin vertical trace that goes between pins is 15 mil (0,381 mm), the thicker ones are 30 mil (0,762 mm).Oh, as standard practice, I tin all my traces as soon as I strip the toner. Black smudges are toner residue, and I have no idea how to get that off reliably. Acetone soaked rag sometimes leaves them and they never go away.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 01:12:28 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on June 05, 2020, 10:45:37 amI have also tried printing on vinyl, using that exact method - it worked really well for me too. The results were not quite as sharp as the Pulsar paper when I tried it, but definitely playing in the same league and maybe if I had persevered with different temperatures etc. it could get as good.Another thing I've been meaning to try, is to cut the PCB artwork out of vinyl (I have a cutting machine) and using it as a straight mask against the etchant - you can make surprisingly fine artwork with a vinyl cutting machine - and definitely no problems with pin holes or large black fills!

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 01:19:23 pm
content: I've been thinking about that too, but I don't have the vinyl cutter. What I'm not particularly crazy about with that idea is picking all the tiny bits of cut outs that need to go.The results would need to be drastically better to justify all that work, and I'm not sure just how much better can it get and how much better than 10 or 20 mil I need. After all, for me, the biggest issue with diy PCB production are vias, not traces.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 03:02:15 pm
content: I've stopped etching boards myself due to availability of cheap Chinese services, but when I was doing that, I was using HP4000. Actually I bought it used for 50€ and have had it for 12 years now. And it's still going. I only had to buy network card for it due to lack of LPT in my PC. Old as hell, but reliable as hell for home use.On the other hand I've found that toner type is more important than then printer itself. In my case aftermarket replacement gave better results than genuine HP toner.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 07:15:29 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on June 05, 2020, 01:19:23 pmAgree. Maybe some kind of hybrid method where it is only used for large black areas...I'll be playing a bit with PCBs in the weekend, after getting inspired by this thread LOL!I'm going to try to find out the max size of black area that my printer can do reliably...

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 08:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on June 05, 2020, 10:45:37 amThanks. That's interesting.QuoteBarring some difference between acid peroxide and cupric, it's possible you didn't get the board hot enough, yet. It definitely takes a bit higher temp to get the toner to transfer to my pre-etched boards. I suspect I would melt vinyl they way I do my transfers. Anyone with a 1200W heat gun knows how hot it gets. Blowdryer x 1000.QuoteThis is better than anything I ever etched with HCl and peroxide!QuoteI found that acetone will draw some of the toner right into the FR-4. Depending on the color and thickness of your FR-4, it can be very noticeable, this darkening/discoloration. (On a high voltage board, it might even have practical implications? There's carbon particles in the toner to make it black!) Since my boards have the icky pre-etch surface, I just scrub the toner away same way I prepped the board to begin with. I wet scrub with stainless steel wool and a drop of dish soap. Pat the board dry, and then brush a thin layer of rosin flux over the board.SilverSolder: Good luck. I think with some persistence and attention, you might find the printer isn't the limiting factor.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 01:37:10 pm
content: By overprinting a thin 8" x 11" frame several times on the same piece of paper, I noticed that you can't rely on the printer (Laserjet 2300) being more accurate than about plus minus 0.8mm across the page, in other words, the printout is going to be slightly distorted depending on roller slippage as the sheet of paper worms its way through the paper path, shimmying, rotating, and generally misbehaving along the way (from a pixel peeping perspective).The best accuracy on this printer is in the top left quadrant of the page, which consistently got less than 0.25mm distortion.This isn't something anyone would ever notice on normal printed output. But the precision is definitely not as good as the two inkjet printers that I compared with. Both the inkjets I tested had less than 0.1mm error across similarly sized artwork.So this is yet another thing to consider when you choose your process - i.e. there is an absolute limit to the precision that a laser printer can do, so if you are trying to make a very large double sided PCB (like 8" x 10"), you will probably struggle to get things lined up accurately across the whole board (your printer may be better, or worse, than mine... try the test with a large thin frame!).Then there is the issue of large black areas not receiving enough toner... I brute forced that, by overprinting the same page twice, with slightly shrunk artwork on the second pass (to avoid registration issues)! Works a treat, completely eliminates the problem of "not enough toner" on large areas.1. Why persevere? - toner transfer is still simpler and faster than photolithography. Just keep in mind that if your board is larger than 4-5 inches, the lack of precision can become a real issue when aligning front and back. For some boards, this won't matter (single sided, for example).2. Why not just get it made in China? - it is super cheap to havesmallPCBs made in China. But try getting a quote for an 8" by 11" PCB with 2oz copper...Basically, if you make PCBs at home... there is an argument for being able to do both toner transfer and photolithography, depending on what you are doing!

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 04:53:24 pm
content: i had similar issues with my hp laserjet cp-1515n printer,even sanding the copper clad with p600 wet or dry and cleaning with acetone the toner mostly wouldnt stick to the board,brought a cheap copy black toner cartridge now it works every time,just my experiance.

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 05:04:29 pm
content: i use hcl and peroxide mix for the etchant,when it stops etching i have a small aquarium pump bubbling air through the solution,i use a small plastic takeaway curry container,i put the solution in the microwave for a min first,then use it,normaly does a 3x6 board in about 10 mins.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 05:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: m3vuv on June 07, 2020, 05:04:29 pmBut you can't do that without peroxide, right? I don't understand why reality is different for me and for the rest of the internet. According to Adam Seychell's figures, you need 1.85L of cupric etchant in order to etch a 1oz single-sided 3x6" board. My reality matches this. How much etchant do you warm up in your curry container?And an aquarium bubbler won't regenerate that "in real time" as you etch, IME. It will take multiple hours.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:04:37 pm
content: My final attempt at a fish bubbler was a 4 output bubbler with 4 bubblers in 3-4L tank. This was terrible. I etched scores of boards with it, successfully. But in practice I was constantly adding acid and peroxide to get boards to finish etching. And etch quality was not significantly better than etching with acid peroxide.

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:13:19 pm
content: the amount of liquid is normaly about 1/3 of a pint,i start of with peroxide,then after a couple of boards just use the pump to bubble air thru it,i normaly heat the mix to about the same temp you drink coffee at,i find it slows as it cools tho so normaly pop it back in the microwave halfway thru,i seem to get good results,when i finish i put the solution in an old coffee jar and reuse it,seems to last forever.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 06:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: m3vuv on June 07, 2020, 06:13:19 pmGotcha. That's really not much different than using freshly mixed acid peroxide, in my experience. It's good to do it like this, to keep your waste concentrated, but it's not really giving you significantly higher etching accuracy, IME. FYI and FWIW. Hence, the thousands of people who are intentionally making cupric (with no way to practically benefit from it), are just making more waste for no reason. Seems like out of every thousand people who do it, 990 of them just created ionic copper waste for no reason. Cuz aquarium bubbler=cool.Your bubbler is window dressing.* I wonder if xaver60 will also provide further details to his magic brew. He states no peroxide in the last 3 years and etches in 7 minutes. But I imagine he must be putting a tiny test strip of board into a beaker of this stuff. Scaled up for a decent sized board, you also have to scale up that beaker. Then you find the practical issues.There was a thread from maybe 3-6 months ago. Guy built a gorgeous vertical bubble etch tank, 3L large, all plexiglass, with CAD-modeled parts. Filled with cupric. On his first few square inch test board, the 3L of cupric turned dark and slowed down, then he added peroxide. When he upgrades the regeneration/bubbler, he can see what cupric really does.*Peroxide is a really powerful oxidizer. It's very unstable and really wants to donate that oxygen. Which in this case, it does to the elemental copper. Cupric can't etch copper oxide, at all. This is the reason that you need some excess of acid in order to etch with cupric; the acid is necessary to remove any copper oxides that will incidentally form due to dissolved oxygen and/or airbubbles in the solution. When you put peroxide in the solution, the copper is very aggressively oxidized, and you block the cupric reaction almost completely, for practical purposes, no matter how weak you keep the acid. The acid pathway is the only way that copper oxide is going to be removed.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 04:46:26 am
content: I watched this video:Truly beautiful detail from a flatbed inkjet printer. Don't know how to get one at a reasonable price.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 06:02:20 am
content: That looks very nice, but how does it perform with double sided boards? For me the ability to make them is crucial.I suppose you could make templates with registration marks where you drill holes in bare PCB and have pins on the printer bed.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 06:34:08 am
content: Hmm, that's a good question. If you don't move the magnets and just flip the board, that only works if you were perfectly centered and square to begin with. Seeing as all the work that went into this, I would guess he can figure out a solution, if he hasn't already.I make boards like this regularly, no problem, with toner transfer. This looks exactly like one of my boards, routing and clearances and trace sizes. 0.2mm is roughly 8 mils, which is my default. The traces in the bottom center/left of his board look a bit rough, though. I mentioned this earlier, but I don't remember if it was in this thread. About not leaving wide spaces between traces, unless necessary. Even if there's extra unused space available, I would have bundled those traces together to maintain 0.2mm spacing!I didn't try 0.1mm. When I tried 6/6 (0.15mm/0.15mm), it worked fine over 99% of the board. For a small board it might work. The problem was a break only every so often (could be seen in the print, itself, prior to transfer). So that short test pattern at 0.1mm/0.2mm looked good, but it might not be the end-all.Otherwords, this looks good. Execution is impressive. Results not that much. The setup/alignment and extra-custom things you have to do might not even save time but add it, until this is more refined. And I can already make that board 30 times out of 30, no problem. Cash money on it. Sure one might go bad, but I'll bet on it.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 09:02:35 am
content: KL27x, glad to hear of the quality you can get from toner transfer. Going to buy a new laser printer tomorrow, the KYOCERA P2040dw to replace my older Brother. You can get toner replacement for $40 per 7,000 sheets (5% coverage). I'll see how it does for toner transfer.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 12:04:28 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on June 08, 2020, 06:34:08 amTo my mind, inkjet printing directly on a possibly slightly warped PCB is less "ideal" than to printing on gel-coated transparency (which requires no modification of the printer, and can be re-used again and again, possibly saving work/time later?).

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 12:01:22 am
content: What papers do you guys use for the toner transfer? Have ordered my printer but unsure about paper.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 04:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: moffy on June 09, 2020, 12:01:22 amI have yellow Chinese toner transfer paper from eBay or Ali. Works well. My results have been far better than what people who use magazine paper and other such hacks report.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 04:58:58 pm
content: I get nice results with the Pulsar paper. Their customer support is good/helpful too (small business) by email or phone.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 09:13:20 pm
content: I have used successfully made boards with plain printer paper and magazine/catalog paper. Value of your time has to be very low for this to be worth it, though. The only thing I've read about which I never got to work was photo paper. Was a guy (in Denmark) who swore up and down about a specific brand and sku of photo paper. I never figured out the special sauce to make that work, but perhaps the formula was different in America or maybe it had changed.If you make more than $1.00 an hour at your day job, you are probably better off buying transfer paper. From what is easily available in the US, it seems like there's 3 choices.1. PnP Blue: this is the most sophisticated stuff. It is a lamination of 2 different plastic sheets. The side you print on is rough-textured to help prevent the toner from squishing/smearing. Where the toner sticks, this entire top sheet tears away from the backing sheet, covering the toner transfer with a layer of thin plastic. It's around a dollar a sheet in 10 packs. But you can buy 100 packs for like 65 dollars, if you use a lot of it.2. Pulsar: this is the most expensive in the US. It's a little more than a dollar per sheet in 10 packs, purchased conveniently from Mouser or Digikey. It's a very thick and stiff paper, almost a thin cardstock, coated on one side with dextrin. Print quality doesn't appear to be affected by the dextrin, and after you transfer, you dunk the board in water for 20 seconds; the paper peels away leaving just the toner. According to the manufacturer, it is sensitive to humidity and can go bad after so long. I have never experienced this, but I don't get high humidity. Since there is no retail bulk discount, there's no major incentive to stock up on it, anyway.3. Yellow paper off eBay. I'm 99% sure this is printer label backing paper, sold on eBay as toner transfer paper. It is dirty cheap. But the 100 pack I bought came all rolled up in a tube. So the paper is very thin and curly and I dunno how other people use it. I imagine they have a system to uncurling it, or maybe even tape it to regular paper... but that would defeat the cheapness. It would be nice if you could just put the 100 sheets in your printer feed tray. Print, cut out what you need, and toss the other 90% blank paper into the bin. But at least with my printer I don't see that working.There are pros and cons, depending how you do the transfer. I've used over 100 sheets of PnP Blue. That was a lot of boards; results are great, but I experienced a significant amount of failures/redo's either in transfer or after the etch. I'm not suggesting that someone else can't get it to work 100%. But for me, I had failures probably in the lower double digits % for relatively small SS boards; the double-sided boards is what really made this bad for me. The method I have settled on for the last many years is too hot for PnP; it melts. I use Pulsar. Now, if I need one board, I make one board... not 2-4, just in case. I haven't failed/redone a board ever since, probably 4 years, now, and a 10 pack of pulsar per year. I bet I could get similar results with the yellow backing paper, but for me it's not worth the hassle for the cost savings. (TBH, that 100 sheets of yellow paper I got in the snail mail, I looked at it. Then it went straight into the garbage can.)So it the best paper depends. What your process, and why you're doing it. If you want to save money over ordering a board from China, we might be in the wrong century for that.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 12:03:30 am
content: Thanks for your advice. I will try and track down one of the three papers listed by "tooki", "SilverSolder" and KL27x.p.s. Managed to order some of the yellow paper. Should be here in a few days along with the new printer. Thanks again.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 05:28:52 am
content: Try to find some vinyl as well. It's really good and you should probably be able to get some offcuts for free if you ask nicely, but it's not expensive even if you need to buy some. It's the stuff used in sign making.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 05:36:51 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on June 09, 2020, 09:13:20 pmWhere do you get this for $65 per 100? I only found it for over $100.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 09:14:45 am
content: completely edited for helpfulness:^Direct from Techniks.com. But it appears my memory has failed me or the price has changed. Probably the former.As of today, the Pulsar is 13.71 for 10 sheets, at Mouser US. At $105 for 100 sheets, PnP is still cheaper. In bulk, anyway. So hmm. Unless I check my bank statements, I would say I probably misremembered the price.But in smaller quantities, PnP looks to be more expensive.

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 05:23:57 am
content: Quote from: moffy on June 08, 2020, 09:02:35 amAny experience with Kyocera?

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 05:43:39 am
content: I have spent quite a while just setting my Kyocera printer up. Had to make an extension table to fit it in the back room. It is scary fast, and the first print when it comes out, it looks like there is a puff of smoke! It also has so many features that it made me nervous setting it up. But I have direct WIFI and USB printing configured, and the driver package is first rate. Will let you know when I do my first pcb transfer. I also found my old A4 Creative laminator. Any advice on how to use it?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 10:48:31 am
content: Quote from: rfguy2020 on June 18, 2020, 05:23:57 amI’ll report back. I’m about to print some transfers on the Kyoceras at work (one B&W, one color).P.S. can confirm that Brother won’t work. It doesn’t adhere to the PCB at all, but does hold onto the transfer sheet rather well.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 09:06:05 pm
content: ^Some Brother printers don't work. If your google-fu is good, you can figure it out by looking up cartridges and MSDS's. When I did this maybe 10 years ago, there was only a small percentage of Brother printers that used the weird ingredients.QuoteMine is a GBC Creative. It came with a dual tone blue plastic cover. I found it will stall out (start to skip gears, actually; the motor doesn't stall) on a full thickness 0.06" board. I egged out the holes in the plastic that hold the ends of the top roller just a bit, so that these boards will fit. There are leaf springs on either end that push the roller down, so this doesn't affect smaller boards. It just opens up the max thickness, a little.edit: you have to be careful not to widen the hole. You want to lengthen it just a tad, into the beginnings of a slot. You don't want it any bigger in diameter, else I imagine there would be problems. I didn't have any, but I was careful and kept that in mind.Personally, I threw out the plastic cover and just screwed the thing down to a wood board, using the 4 screw holes in the bottom of the innards. The board extends out past the right side of the laminator for enclosing the wiring and switch. The thing should be considered live, though. It's definitely a shock hazard. No bare feet when using it. If the board is wet, you can shock yourself even with the cover on, I have found. Take care.;;;;;;;;;;At first, I was happy with this laminator, all by itself. It was fairly reliable up to maybe 2x2" boards. Just playing around. But then when doing larger boards, it stopped being reliable. Not enough heat, no matter how many slow trips through. I think after 3 passes, maybe, you're not getting hotter, anymore. That's why I use the heat gun and the pre-etch.The heatgun fixed the initial problem. But it revealed a new one: smeared/fattened transfers when the temp gets too high, resulting in a loss of effective fidelity/resolution, and producing inspection problems at any rate. Lots of sketchy things to examine before populating this board, due to artifacts.Because the main ingredient in regular toner is wax, the melting range is fairly narrow. It doesn't go from solid to liquid exactly like water does. The more complex a wax is, the more it actually has different parts that melt in a range of temp. Beeswax is a natural example. But the range could be very narrow, as well. Then, the liquid:solid ratio is a phase change. The amount of TIME you keep it at this temp also matters. Else the toner melts like a snowflake in the sun. The printer regulates temp of a piece of paper, which is a small mass and a predictable thing. It can do this way better than we can the analogy with a copper clad board. Esp the larger it gets, and the more you have to account that it has a size and shape. It's not a point-object or one with perfect thermal conduction.edit: Trying to partially melt the toner is a lot like cooking a pizza. You can make your pizza, and it comes out fine, but you learned exactly how long to set the timer. Now make a pizza way bigger or smaller. There's no easy formula, and the copper clad is a composite of 2 materials with very different density and thermal conductance. For the pizza, you use experience and your baking skill. And sometimes it works on the first try; sometimes it doesn't. And any pockets that are over or underdone will likely result in a complete board failure/redo when the traces get sub 10 mil. You can't repair those with a sharpie.So now, the first thought is probably the same as mine was. How to achieve that precise of a temp and baking time for varying-sized boards in a practical way? I imagine math. Calculations. Correction factors. Pre-heaters, ramp-ups, reflow profiles, computer simulations? But this question, I never had to answer. I found another way to do it.The pre-etch eventually solved this second problem. But only after learning that you need to get it even hotter, to start with, but now pie's the limit.In case anyone has a different experience, I'm curious to learn from it!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 11:13:28 pm
content: @KL27X, have you measured the temperature achievable on the rollers? Would be interesting to compare. I have never had a problem getting the toner from the paper to the copper... my problem has always been getting enough toner on the paper in the first place!

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 11:26:23 pm
content: I have measured the temp as the board is just coming out the back of rollers using an IR gun. The gun reading on shiny copper didn't make any sense. I think there's a way to adjust the gun for "emissivity," or something, but I didn't want to go there. So I did this on bare FR-4.Per my memory, the temp maxed out on maybe the third pass. I was probably using a 4x6" 0.06" FR-4 board, probably with copper on one side. How thick? I didn't pay much attention back then. But that max temp was... well, I don't really remember. But with the heat gun being slowly waved over the board, from the top FR-4 side, as it went into rollers, this temp at the output side rose more-or-less exactly 100 degrees higher. This is the only detail I would testify to. I don't even remember if that was F or C. I posted some numbers in a different thread, recently, and those might be right? I would take them with a grain of salt.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 12:09:14 am
content: My laminator "says" it is getting to 370F on its display... but I haven't actually attempted to measure the real temperature yet.Generally I agree that the hotter, the better - it seems to be good medicine for the process. I haven't seen smearing or other negative consequences.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 12:29:01 am
content: I just found a temp gun. GF musta returned it from COVID duty, checking employee temperatures. IIRC, this is the one that reads 20 degrees lower than the other Dollar Store temp gun I used the last time. So I dunno how accurate my tools are, but I'll try to post some harder data, soon enough.Dunno what software you use, but in Eagle, there is a box marked "black" when you print. It took me awhile before I noticed, because traces and planes and SMD pads were already black. But thru hole pads and vias printed in greyscale. I take it you have issues with solid planes. Perhaps your software does something screwy, like this? You might try changing the plane to another layer? Also, some papers might have more problem taking a print than others?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 03:56:23 am
content: I did make that mistake early on, LOL. - but now it is the printer...Last weekend, I found a way to feed the printout through the printer twice... basically, by "shrinking" the artwork slightly the second time, so there aren't any misalignment issues on the second print. That looks to be working surprisingly well, because the toner coating tends to always be quite good along the edges... so now, I get completely black, rich, thick coverage everywhere, no need for toner transfer foil as far as I can see! I'm going to try this weekend to see how that turns out in the etching bag...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 05:26:50 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on June 18, 2020, 09:06:05 pmFWIW, the Brother toner didn’t even attempt to stick to the PCB. I then tried spritzing some IPA between PCB and transfer, and this allowed some of the toner to stick, but when removing the transfer sheet, the toner actually stretched and pulled away.Anyhow, as for Kyocera: I haven’t tried the color printer yet, but the B&W one worked ok but not great. I had to touch up a lot of spots. The PCB will work, but it’s nowhere near as sharp as what I got with the now-dead Samsung printer.I wonder if for this purpose, the cheapest laser printers are actually ideal: they tend to use quick-heating instant fusers that I suspect don’t get as hot as the always-on fusers in larger printers. If this speculation is true, I’d assume the toner formulations are also designed for lower temperatures, which perhaps might be more suited to laminator temperatures.FYI, my laminator is a GBC Mylam-9, a heavy duty office laminator. (It’s the kind that uses flat heaters, with unheated rollers before and after the heater block.) I run it on maximum for toner transfer, and typically run the board through 4 or 5 times to ensure a good transfer.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 01:25:09 pm
content: The support person at Pulsar (makers of the toner transfer paper) said older laser printers are actually better, he recommended buying a used older HP with 1200dpi resolution and that is what they use themselves... For what it's worth. They are actually good to talk to, they know most printers "by heart" now!

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 06:45:55 pm
content: There's a big enough space between the metal bits to get a reading directly off the silicone rollers, from the back of my skeletonized Creative. Fully hot, it reads 268-270F.A 4x6" 0.06" 2 oz SS board put through the long way, starting at 95F and read as it exits. Heating and reading from the bare FR-4 side.By 3rd pass, it is exiting at 235-240F, and I'm dealing with a hot potato trying to get it back in by the edges. Had a brief moment of actual pain, here.On the 4th pass is gets all the way into the 260's F, which is pretty darn close to the temp the rollers reach, themselves.With the heat gun, the board exits the laminator at ~340F. And you can jump to there on just the second pass. With the heat gun on there, the rollers should be cooling the board down, I suppose.If your laminator actually goes to 370F, that should be pretty hot compared to the my Creative.https://poppbinding.com/faqconc/what-temperature-should-you-run-laminating-films-at/This suggests that my laminator is pretty ordinary.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 08:15:48 pm
content: I just ran my similarly skeletonized "Apache" brand laminator (similar to this one:http://www.apachelaminators.com/al18p.html) up to its max setting of 379F. My old and not particularly spectacular IR thermometer read 186C on the rollers, which works out to 367F - close enough for Australia, it is probably close to its displayed temperature!This probably explains why I am not seeing any issues getting the toner to stick to the PCB.Looking forward to the "double print" test this w/e, I'll probably make a special with a large black area just to test...

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 08:24:28 pm
content: The more we learn, wow. Quite a difference.Now the question is why your toner doesn't squish/fatten when you transfer at these temps? Maybe something to do with your printer being "stingy" with the toner? Or is it different toner?And why your transfer doesn't work when you do the pre-etch? Is it any of the above, or maybe it is the etchant? Or is my board significantly hotter than you get, even, as it goes into the rollers, at least? I'm curious if you would shoot your heat gun at the bare FR-4 on the exit side.I would try pre-etch in acid+peroxide, but I don't have any peroxide.Mine is one of those relatively old HP printers, FWIW. HP Laserjet p1102w.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 08:47:32 pm
content: I don't see any squish, no. Even after running through several times. As you say, probably because the toner is already on the thin side (but only on large areas - thin traces are fine).The printer is an HP2300 (recommended by Pulsar, it's what they use) and should be "good". The toner is a new cartridge, original HP. Who knows, maybe a Brand X cartridge would work better... apparently, the less sophisticated the toner, the better. (Less sophisticated = less additives that enhances performance for normal printing)I clean the PCBs with a ScotchBrite pad and some acetone before laminating. The toner always sticks to the PCB like the proverbial sh!t to a blanket, so I have never been tempted to pre-etch.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:13:36 pm
content: The printer could be a bigger variable than I thought. I had good and similar results with the first two printers I tried, so I may have underestimated the differences.I imagine they could have improved the output efficiency. By applying the toner more accurately, you could print more pages with the same physical amount of toner, by laying the toner thinner and still not suffering any holes in the coverage. That would be a few cents higher profit per cartridge in a mature, competitive, and high-volume market without lower-lying fruit to pick. It's a win-win, except to the toner transfer guy?In comparison, my HP 1102 is maybe slathering the toner on the way I like the butter on my waffles?If you are using the same Printer that Pulsar uses, and in light of your observations, I wouldn't be too surprised if the foil step isn't indeed the most efficient way to plug the holes, afterall. But the double-print technique sounds promising, esp if you could simply adjust a couple of clearances for the second pass.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 10:26:45 pm
content: I wish I could get mine to "butter the toast" that way!As long as the tracks are thin enough (12 mil?), mine does "butter the toast" very well...I also have a Canon photocopier, which I bought before the printer - I was thinking, I could photocopy inkjet printed artwork... but it has the same problem with not "buttering the toast", the HP printer actually puts down more toner than the photocopier... and the printer has higher resolution to boot...Let's see how things pan out with the "double coat" trick, at least that is something new and interesting to try!

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 07:09:55 am
content: Printer Kyocera 2040dw, at half speed onto yellow toner transfer paper.Here is the promised photo, detail was excellent with toner transfer 100%. Sorry for the quality of the photo but I wanted the detail to be visible.

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 08:48:30 am
content: I decided to test Xerox Phaser 6510. I have only tested black and white prints on regular paper to evaluate print quality. It looks like my old Samsung has better resolution (should be 1200x1200). Xerox should be up to 1200x2400.I have tested the test pattern, which has 9 x lines (50um, 75um, 100um, 125um, 150um, 175um, 200um, 225um, 250um), all gaps 200um. Some of the lines in Xerox print looks like equal, so it looks like resolution causes some issues. Samsung prints has some residue / black dots near lines, but those are not big issue, since those will be most probably disappear in the toner transfer.I couldn't find how these resolutions are defined with these color printers. Should I get 1200x2400 resolution for all four colors? Or should I divide it actually by four (600x1200 / 1200x600)? Or something else?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 01:13:48 pm
content: I made a couple of test documents with "tracks" ranging from 1 mil to 15 mils, positive and negative versions.If your printer can do these, it is pretty good! Here, only my Inkjet printer does a great job, the Laserjet struggles with the thinnest lines.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 01:49:23 pm
content: ...and here is a more comprehensive ISO12233 test chart for checking printer resolution. This one is excellent for "nailing" your driver settings to get the best output possible.To use it, resize the page to fit your printer (full landscape page), select best quality, and print...The numbers on the chart show you 100x the number of lines per picture height. So you divide that number by the picture height to normalize (for example, if your image is 7" high, divide by 7 to get lines per inch).My particular old Laserjet 2300 gets to around 175 lines per inch on this chart at decent quality, perhaps a little better on a good day. This is a native 1200x1200 resolution printer.I had to play with a lot of different drivers and settings to get it to print at that resolution...

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 05:24:13 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 22, 2020, 01:13:48 pmThis is similar test than I have done. From the positive, all lines looks good on paper with Samsung. From to negative, gaps above 2 mils are clear.Xerox can also print all positive lines, but for example 1 & 2 mils line are same. Also 3 & 4 are same. Negative layout has same issue. Gaps 1 & 2 are useless and gaps 3&4 are the same.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 10:24:14 am
content: Quote from: rfguy2020 on June 23, 2020, 05:24:13 amIt sounds like the Xerox driver is not giving max resolution? Try the ISO12233 test chart...

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 10:37:08 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 23, 2020, 10:24:14 amSame problem with the ISO chart. I have not analyzed the chart yet, but it is clearly worse that Samsung. I have played around with drivers and got it a bit better. Resolution is not as good as I expected.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 03:22:23 pm
content: Quote from: rfguy2020 on June 23, 2020, 10:37:08 amI probably spent a week getting the right driver for my printer.... which turned out to be a Samsung driver, that just happens to work with this HP printer (both share the same Canon mechanics)!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 03:40:57 pm
content: HP bought Samsung’s printer division a few years ago. HP’s current entry-level printers all look more like the Samsungs than the pre-acquisition entry-level LaserJets, so I suspect that the Samsung models simply replaced HP’s own entry-level designs.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 04:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 23, 2020, 03:40:57 pmDon't forget mine is quite old - the Samsung model that it is compatible with is from 2006 or something like that! - definitely shared Canon internals.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 04:42:05 pm
content: Canon is responsible for a huge amount of the laser printer engines out there. I think it’s kinda crazy how Apple and HP are famous for having introduced desktop laser printing with the LaserWriter and LaserJet, respectively, yet nobody remembers or recognizes Canon for producing the laser engine inside both of them!! (Sure, the controllers and page description languages that made them into working total systems are also hugely important, but without the print engine it would have been moot.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 11:46:03 pm
content: FYI, I tried the big workgroup color Kyocera at work, and like the small desktop B&W Kyocera, it worked, but the result is nowhere near as sharp as what I got out of the el-cheapo Samsung.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 12:13:12 am
content: The Kyocera I have seems OK, but I don't have any real comparisons. The pages when they come out though are hot, and accompanied with a puff of steam. It's like a little dragon. We can also print directly from our phones to the printer, neat!

author: Pawelr98
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:48:54 am
content: Anyone here uses Sodium persulfate for etching ?Generally speaking in Poland it replaced Iron Chloride for many people.A local company sells Sodium persulfate crystals as a well known B327 etching product.You purchase a bag full of white crystals, then you dissolve it in water which has to be heated up to around 40-50°C.At 50°C the process is a bit faster than at 40°C but faster etching means higher risk of small tracks getting etched.Variable temperature means the etching speed can be controlled as required.The solution at lower temperatures will still etch, but it will be painfully slow.I don't recommend higher temperatures, not really worth it as the stuff gets messy (either toner is dissolving or something is breaking down chemically, lots of black stuff appearing in the water).Never really had problems with thinner tracks getting etched away though.Instead of following the procedure written on the B327 package which says "disslove X amount in Y amount of water" I just dissolve more each time the etching process slows down or just stops alltogether.When the process stops the pure copper gets "dirty", most likely from byproducts of the chemical reaction.Once you add more the copper instantly becomes "clean" and the process starts again.The etching solution is fairly transparent (gets blue over time but still nothing serious) so one may observe the etching process in detail.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 03:40:57 am
content: If I had never fallen down the cupric chloride rabbit hole, I might be etching with that stuff, today. The etching accuracy is supposed to be the best, so your experience sounds about right. And you make it sound convenient enough.When I reached that fork in the road, the pop knowledge on the internet led me to believe etching with cupric would be impossibly simple and easy.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 11:12:23 am
content: Quote from: Pawelr98 on July 02, 2020, 12:48:54 amIt's similar over here. I've moved from iron (III) chloride to sodium persulfate long time ago. But there's one drawback, it's more aggressive against all kinds of materials. I had to swap the wooden air bubblers with ceramic ones, some plastic screws had to be replaced with another plastic type, and the air tubing was changed from PVC to silicone.

author: BrandonClarkson
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 07:18:43 pm
content: I can advise you HP LaserJet Pro M104w. I have been using it for many years and I really like it.

author: cheeseit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 08:28:13 pm
content: @BrandonClarkson: That's good to know. I'm waiting for the M118DW being back in stock locally though I realise that the two of them may have nothing in common. This is to replace an old Samsung with half the vertical resolution.@KL27x: could have been me, I'm from Denmark, have used photo paper and found that some don't work, some are mediocre and some are excellent. Trouble is that I can't remember which were the good ones. I do remember some Canon papers were excellent.I never got the yellow backing/transfer paper from China to work as my Samsung doesn't work properly with them.

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 08:54:50 am
content: I have tested two new printers.Xerox 6510 was not working well. Linewidth of the print was not even close to Samsung. I'm not sure if the problem was caused by the driver or printer itself. I tried to get support from Xerox, but outcome was that printer is intended for "high quality text documents and color files printing". Whatever that means. Anyway, I was testing some blue press and peel films and they did look too promising either. I decided to forget Xerox printers.Then I went to HP. I tested Laserjet pro M304a. First impression was not much better than Xerox. I cannot print with same quality than with Samsung. Toner looks more promising, but resolutions is worse. Picture of my test pattern as attached.It seems that laser printers are degenerated. I think those new "laser" printers are actually LED printers. LED printer is not probably able to print with same quality than true laser. Does anyone know if there are any true laser printers available?I'm interested to hear how HP Laserjet Pro M118dw is working? It might be next candidate in my list.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 03:08:20 pm
content: Quote from: cheeseit on August 18, 2020, 08:28:13 pmWeird. My (sadly now broken) Samsung produced the best output I’ve achieved so far onto the yellow transfer paper.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 01:03:36 pm
content: Anyone got any experience with a laser printer model that’s on the market now? After my little Samsung died (whose output was surprisingly good, producing much better transfers than any of the printers at work), I’ve been left without a viable PCB printer...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 01:24:29 pm
content: If the printer was really good, maybe get a used one of the same model on eBay?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 03:47:30 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 08, 2020, 01:24:29 pmBecause 1. I’m in the market for a new (all purpose) printer anyway, and 2. driver support for old printers dwindles. My current general printer (a Canon inkjet) is already running on borrowed time in this regard, with me installing the final version of the drivers onto an unsupported newer OS. That’s not gonna work forever.Granted, with laser printers this is somewhat less likely due to PostScript support, but it’s still not ideal.Also, the Swiss are really good about recycling their old gadgets, so you tend to find a lot less used gear than in, say, the US.In the case of the little Samsung, it was not a postscript printer, so totally reliant on custom drivers, and since HP bought Samsung’s printer division several years ago, there are no (obvious) closely-related successor models whose drivers maaaybe could be cajoled into working.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 04:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 08, 2020, 03:47:30 pmI have a number of older printers, including a large format inkjet that I rarely use, but don't want to lose - I have no intention of replacing any of them. Why replace something that works? I would rather spend my money and more importantly, TIME! - on something more interesting than replacing working equipment with modern equivalents that often have hidden downsides like requiring cloud accounts, or using expensive time bombed consumables, or other complications that I don't even want to spend time exploring, let alone working around!The solution to keeping old peripherals running can be as simple as just running a small Windows 7 instance in a virtual machine, and use it as a print server (just share its printer(s)). This approach means that you can use the "good" drivers that work with the OS that was around when the printer was designed, and don't have to deal with legacy drivers in Windows 10 which, as you noted, can be a complete b!tch to get working (if it is even possible).Having this kind of thing set up means you can now buy from a big range of bargain printers and other peripherals - in addition to the large format printer that I got for a few percent of the price of an equivalent new one, I also have a vinyl sign cutter that I got for pennies on the dollar because its software only works on Win 7!Being a cheapskate is an art form, as you can see!

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 04:17:28 pm
content: For the driver part, a virtual machine running an older version of whatever OS still supports the printer, hosted on whatever the current OS is. VMware, VirtualBox or alike.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 05:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 08, 2020, 04:16:36 pmAside from the fact that I made it clear I want a new printer, and that my question is “what printers on the market now” are good for toner transfer, time is precisely why I don’t wanna dick around with nonsense like running a VM just to print! I want to be able to click “Print” and have it print. Sure, by printing to PDF and then copying the PDF to the host, one can print across nearly any permutation of OSes and drivers, but it’s too time consuming.Also, I never actually said I use Windows.I actually don’t know how Windows’ printer sharing works, but on the Mac, if you want full access to a shared printer’s features, the client needs the printer driver. Otherwise you just get generic settings, which are often not enough, especially for specialty applications like here, where being able to set the toner density is critical. Again, it’s a bit different for postscript printers, where at least in theory a PPD file (postscript printer description) is enough.(I am a former computer support professional, so I am well aware of all the workarounds. I just don’t want any right now. I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with it.)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2020, 05:42:30 pm
content: I hear you, and it is of course an excellent solution to just get a modern printer that solves the problem.I spent some time talking with the "inventor" of the Pulsar toner transfer paper a while back. He was pretty adamant that an older printer is the way to go... he was not able to recommend any new ones at all. This was a year or two ago now. He was recommending a used HP 2300 at the time. That's pretty much how I ended up "making it work".Hopefully a newer model will emerge in this thread, it would be valuable for us all to know!

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2020, 11:22:43 am
content: I also gave hope to find any new printer, which can do the job as good as old Samsung. I have collection of new laser printers, which are not usable. I'm looking for second hand Samsung models now. I just wonder if there is any difference between all of those Samsung models? I have SCX3205. Later models might have more years left than older models.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2020, 03:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: rfguy2020 on October 09, 2020, 11:22:43 amWhat do you have that doesn’t work? Knowing what to eliminate is almost as useful as what to get.Also, if you could go into why they don’t work, that’d be useful, too.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2020, 04:52:07 pm
content: Apparently some of the new toners are higher temperature stuff that doesn't "re-melt" the way we need it to do for toner transfer... it might be fruitful to track which printers use what cartridges, as presumably one that doesn't work in printer A, won't work in printer B either.An alternative to a laser printer is a personal photocopier... the little Canon ones use the right kind of toner. Unfortunately, the resolution is not as good as a laser printer...The Samsung ML-2570 uses the same Canon internals as the recommended HP Laserjet 2300... I'm guessing that the "good" Samsungs are from that era.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2020, 06:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 09, 2020, 04:52:07 pmAgain, I’m not sure that focusing on obsolete machines is a fruitful approach for PCB making in the long run. I don’t know when Canon stopped making those personal copiers, but I imagine it’s been a while, since multifunction home printers have been widespread for a long time now, killing off the market for personal analog copiers once and for all. (I don’t think anyone makes analog xerographic copiers at all, for any market. They’re all digital now, since it leverages economies of scale with printing, and produces better output to boot.) The last analog Canon personal copier I could find was released in 2011. I don’t know when they officially discontinued them, but they certainly don’t make them any more.I somewhat doubt that modern toners are actually higher temperature — if anything, I’d expect the opposite, to support the modern approach of fusers that only turn on on demand, rather than staying heated all the time. The higher speeds of modern printers would also, if anything, benefit from a lower melting point, not a higher one, I would think, since the page has less contact time with the fuser.There are massive differences in toner characteristics for sure: Brother toners are extremely gummy when hot, and just don’t separate from transfer sheets. A color Oki at work has toner that transfers well, but barely adheres at all — it behaves like a layer of flaky, brittle paint, easily scratched off a transfer sheet or PCB with a fingernail.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2020, 11:42:41 pm
content: I guess that if mainstream manufacturers are moving away (or have already gone away) from using "pure" plastic toner to newer formulations that don't behave well for our purposes, we may have to face up to the possibility that toner transfer may eventually no longer be viable, apart from using older equipment?There are only a few options available:1) Identify a modern printer that uses a type of toner that works for our purposes. (None known at this time)If that is not possible,2) Identify a source of replacement toner cartridges for a modern printer that is filled with "the good stuff". Third party toner suppliers may not have moved on to the latest technologies, and may have found that the old style toner actually still works in some machines...If that is not possible,3) Develop some kind of methodology that works with the new style of toner. Maybe some chemical or other can persuade the new toner compound to behave better.If that is not possible,4) Keep an older model alive as long as possible, eventually give up on the method when it becomes too impractical/expensive.

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2020, 01:00:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 09, 2020, 03:25:42 pmI have tested HP Laserjet pro M304a and Xerox 6510. Both printers have same problem. Resolution of the print is not nearly as good as old Samsung.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2020, 01:09:02 pm
content: Old Samsung and HP printers both used engines that were actually made by Canon. Top drawer quality, obviously.It might be hard to find a modern printer that the cheesy MBAs haven't found a way to limit the quality to the absolute minimum necessary to sell them!

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2020, 06:32:51 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on October 22, 2020, 01:09:02 pmI think so too. It seems that printer companies don't care much about resolution anymore. Resolution is probably good enough for 99 percent of users. You cannot see the difference in the Word document.I believe most laser printers are actually LED printers? LED would not have as good resolution than good old laser.According to wikipedia, 2400dpi lasers exists: "2400 dpi electrophotographic printing plate makers, essentially laser printers that print on plastic sheets, are also available. ". Does anyone know what kind of printer is used by electrophotographic printing plate maker?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2020, 02:19:11 am
content: Huh? Your final question is basically “does anyone know what kind of printer that non-printer uses?”The plate makeristhe specialized printer. But it doesn’t print on paper, it produces printing plates used in a printing press to make large print runs.

author: rfguy2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2020, 06:19:49 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 24, 2020, 02:19:11 amOk. The plate maker printer does not sound to be option. I was able to get backup printer for my Samsung this weekend. I bought another second hand SCX-3205 printer, so it won't be major catastrophe, if my old printer from 2011 decide to retire. This is not ideal solution, but better than nothing.

author: JeanF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 11:10:03 pm
content: Hi everyone,I just bought a HP laserjet 2300, following recommendations from Pulsar paper website, and SilverSolder here.SilverSolder, would you mind sharing here the specific Samsung driver that you use for best results with this printer, please? Also, thanks for your test pages, I'll be using these.What OS are you using with this printer? Is there some clever tweaking or file editing needed to make your Samsung driver work with the HP hardware or does it just work by doing right-click and "update driver" from within Device Manager in Windows? I use Windows 8.1.Thank you!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 12:13:10 am
content: Congratulations with your new-to-you purchase!The files are too big to attach in the forum. The driver I use is the HP PCL v6 one, and I am using it on Windows 7 64 bit. Available here:https://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/DR/201106/20110607150014918/PCL-2570.exeThere are other drivers including Postscript versions linked from this page:https://www.driver-samsung.net/2018/09/samsung-ml-2570-driver-for-windows.html[Edit:] This is not an official Samsung page and I can't vouch for what you'll find thereFor what it's worth, I use the PCL driver because you might expect a HP printer to have excellent support for that.I don't know anything about Windows 8, but on Windows 7 I just ran the install file linked above and everything worked.

author: JeanF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 04:01:23 pm
content: Thank you very much! I've been playing around a little bit but I didn't try to transfer anything yet. But I'm having a hard time with drivers... (both HP and Samsung)I'm using Windows 8.1. When I connect the printer for the first time, Windows installs a Microsoft version of a PCL6 driver. It prints fine but I don't have any control; printer "properties" are limited to the bare minimum: only color / B&W (which on this printer is amusing), portrait/landscape, paper size and that's all.Then I can of course install HP drivers fromthis page, that is, either PCL or PS version of their "universal print driver". Apparently they don't provide the custom driver (which they call "full solution") for this specific model, or at least not anymore.Here is the 1st problem : in "print quality" dialog, 1200 dpi (or ProRes 1200) is not available. The only choices are 600dpi, as well as a range of HP "custom" settings which are all 600dpi with various interpolations : FastRes 1200; ImageRet3600, General Office, Professional, Presentation.The 2nd problem is that all these "quality" settings don't seem to make any difference in the final print, and all of these give worse results than with the Microsoft basic driver. I checked with naked eye and with a USB microscope. The edges of any black lines or shapes are all slightly crenelated. At least they are not as fuzzy as they are with the PostScript driver, but still not great.It seems that HP's "universal" driver doesn't support "true" 1200dpi. At least I've found two forum threads were people had the same problem :(1)and(2).I downloaded the Samsung driver upon your suggestion, but sadly I couldn't use this Samsung driver myself on Windows 8.1. If I run the standalone installer, the Samsung utility doesn't detect the printer. And if I manually unzip the Samsung drivers somewhere, and then I manually update the drivers from the Device Manager, then the drivers are installed, and when I click "printer properties" for the HP 2300 printer I get the Samsung version of the window (which is good) ; but then it won't print anything; an error message "There's an error, the printer couldn't print..." each time I try to print something.So, before I go through the hassle of setting up virtual machines to redo my tests on older Windows versions, would anyone please tell me if you have any suggestions? I'd be glad to hear. Does anyone happen to have a copy (if they ever existed) of "full feature drivers" from HP for this model? (HP LaserJet 2300). And if so, for which versions of Windows?Maybe I can just use the standard Microsoft driver, because it works OK, but it is a bit disappointing to be forced to give up on all the detailed controls that the official HP driver is supposed to offer.Thank you very much for your help! I've also emailed Pulsar, because they seem to be regular users of this printer. I'll report back here if I get a reply

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 06:08:05 pm
content: I know how you feel - I spent many hours on this, because HP decided to drop ProRes 1200 from their drivers after Windows XP. Planned obsolescence, basically.Is there any way of running the driver in Windows 7 compatibility mode, or anything like that?I was never able to get the HP Universal Driver to give the ProRes funcionality.However, I did find another HP printer driver that works for the 2300, and supports ProRes 1200: it is the driver for the LaserJet 1320 PCL6.I don't know if it will work on Win 8, but it might? Also, there are some differences between the two printers, so anomalies may occur - but I am able to print with it no problems.The Samsung driver is the easiest to use - no BS, it "just works" (on Win 7).

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 06:39:27 pm
content: Install Windows XP in a virtual machine (to create one, use either VirtualBox or VMware Player, both free), then install the driver you want inside the WinXP virtual machine.

author: JeanF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2021, 10:28:13 am
content: That's a solution that I wanted to avoid at first, but I'm currently playing around with just that, VMware player and XP.There is indeed a "full" (ie not universal) driver for the HP 2300 for XP. I should have checked more carefully the HP downloads page!But it seems that I can't just share the printer from the guest system (XP) to the host (W8.1), because when I try to "add a new printer" on the host and select the printer shared by XP, W8.1 says that it still needs a driver on the host too...So if I want to print using a printer that has its driver installed in a VM, I think there's no other choice than exporting to PDF from the host, copying files to the VM and then printing from a PDF reader installed on the VM? That's doable but a bit more convoluted than I'd like. Or am I missing something?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2021, 11:25:19 am
content: It should work either without any driver or with any other "incomplete" driver in the host (real) machine. The guest (virtual) machine won't see the printer attached to the host unless you attach the printer to the guest, from the VMware settings of your XP guest machine. Do not share the printer between the two guest/host, give the printer to the guest XP only.If it doesn't work, try VirtualBox, it has way more settings.Also, no matter which one you use, either VMware or VirtualBox, install the extra add-on/enhancement (don't remember how they are called). Once you install the extra package both in the guest and the host machines, you should be able to copy/paste from one desktop to another. CTRL-C your file, CTRL-V in XP, then print from XP.There are further way to simplify this, by sharing folders between the machine, or integrating the two like it would be one desktop, but this will only add confusion, so just use copy/paste and print from XP at first.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2021, 12:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: JeanF on January 21, 2021, 10:28:13 amNo, that’s how it is. Printer sharing just shares the interface, it doesn’t have anything to do with the page description language and the driver.Man do I wish this weren’t the case, since my workhorse printer (a 2008 inkjet) is not supported under newer OSes, either...I know that ages ago, one could configure a CUPS/ghostprint server that would present itself as a shared PostScript printer, thus allowing any old OS to print to it using generic PostScript drivers. But I’ve long since forgotten how to do it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2021, 01:58:06 pm
content: The way I work around this, is to print to a PDF file (Print To PDF) from whatever application needs to print on the "special" printer. Then I pick that PDF up in the virtual machine (or on a separate machine) and print from there. That way, you don't have to install all the applications in every machine - you just need a way to print PDF. The format supports very high resolution so there is no quality loss this way.Now, all you need is for the VM to share a directory on the host machine, it is easy to transfer PDFs that way.

author: kile
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 02:28:17 pm
content: I have the same dilemma. I want to buy a new printer that I will use for printing, but also for toner transfer PCBs. Is there anyone who bought a new printer (current model) in the last year or so, and successfully used it for iron/laminator toner transfer? I don't need more that 10mil precision.Thank you very much!

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 03:16:53 am
content: Yes, the Kyocera Ecosys P2040dw printer. Incredibly cheap toner refills. Only thing to watch out for is that for pcb toner transfer you need to set the 'print density' in the menu of the printer from the default of 3 to 5. Have a look at my forum entry:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/need-laminator-recommendations-for-toner-transfer/

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2021, 08:48:32 am
content: Quote from: GraceGraham on June 24, 2021, 11:31:18 amWhy don't you explain to us all what your "big dilemma" was.BTW, suspected spambot/AI being watched by mods.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 06:11:45 pm
content: Quote from: GraceGraham on June 28, 2021, 02:54:49 pmWhat kind of PCBs are you making with that printer - what is the smallest track size?

author: kile
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 03:45:28 pm
content: I bought a HP Neverstop Laser MFP 1200 a few months ago, and now I have tried to make PCBs with it. And all I can say is: success!!I haven't toner transfered PCBs in a few years, but with the new EU regulations about import fees, and the fact that I need to make a few low-resolution THT PCBs, I decided to try it out with this printer. So I took an old leftover piece of the blue Press-n-Peel foil, a PCB image from my last Fab-ed design, and made an experiment.I am a bit rusty with this, so I made a few mistakes: the iron was too hot, and I held it down too long, so there is some smudging on one edge. But none of the traces seem to be broken (12 mils is my thinnest trace here), and while I can see that some neighbouring traces would short, that can be easily fixed with larger spacing in the DRC.Please note that I have never tried toner transfer with shiny newspapers or any other kind of paper. I have only ever used the blue Press-n-Peel foil, so I have no idea if paper transfer would work. But this does and I am happy!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 03:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: kile on November 28, 2021, 03:45:28 pmThat's a nice dark, deep black over the ground plane areas! Looks much better than I've seen from a laser before. Looks like HP has improved the technology with this generation of printers!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 08:39:46 pm
content: Quote from: kile on November 28, 2021, 03:45:28 pmI’m actually not surprised: HP’s lasers are now homegrown, thanks to their acquisition of Samsung’s printer division some years ago. And the (now dead) Samsung laser printer I had produced hands-down the best toner transfers I’ve managed so far.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2021, 09:04:16 pm
content: Every time someone asks for toner transfer, I suggest inkjet pigment printer and (silkscreen) transparencies, presensitized PCB and low cost "nail UV lamp". Toner transfer is full of "what is best for", "how do I", then trial and errors to find that "it still depends". Seeing definition you can get with UV resist and low defect rate - you will come back to thank me. Note that you need only black ink to be pigment type, CMY can be dye. Those who already got PCB's for toner transfer - buy photoresist film to make "presensitized PCB" yourself.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 02:03:30 am
content: Quote from: ogden on November 29, 2021, 09:04:16 pmI do both methods - I agree with you that the transparency method is better, but the toner transfer method also works very well after you've honed it in!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2022, 10:53:51 pm
content: Before I printg the toner onto trhe PCB material I use s scour pad to brade it really well. (Scotch lite) This vastly increases the ability of the toner to fully coat the copper, increasing the amont that is etched away by an order of magnitude. Just as I was getting the best results I have to date my printer seems to have developed some kind of logic problem.Which really sucks because I have lots of toner and paper for it right now. Its a workhorse generic Samsung ML-1210. It was a great deal for around $150 originally. Its been serving me well for around three years.

author: Elrico972
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 01:18:24 pm
content: Hello to all I hope the subject is not too old and that some of you can help me. I want to make my own pcb's using the toner transfer method but all the printers that are recommended are discontinued (or cartridges are not available). Are there any recent models of printers that work with toner transfer method? I would be so happy if someone could help me because this research is definitely a pain.

author: DavidKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2023, 08:38:14 am
content: My experience with toner transfer was quite poor - HP LJ2300. I used it in combination with OHP pen to improve covering. Still had issues.My final solution was to print on the OHP foil in professional copy center (it had better quality compared with my home print) and use FR4 with photo resist.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2023, 09:38:11 am
content: My experience with a cheap Samsung was great. But Samsung sold its printer business to HP (who bought it in order to reduce its dependence on Canon for print engines), and it was recently announced that HP is movingbackto Canon engines for its cheap printers. (The expensive ones stayed Canon all along.) So I guess the chances of getting a Samsung-based laser are now definitively over.My main inkjet printer is dying (after 15 years!!!) so I'm starting to shop around for probably a color laser. If/when I get one, I'll try it out for toner transfer.

author: Elrico972
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:07:30 pm
content: After some research, I am now hesitating between two models:1 - HP LaserJet Tank HP 2504dw: I read that HP printer toners were effective and Kile bought an HP Neverstop which gave an excellent result. Unfortunately it seems discontinued but the LaserJet Tank line seems to have the same refillable toner technology.Quote from: kile on November 28, 2021, 03:45:28 pm2 - Brother HL-L2350DW: Brothers printers don't have a good reputation (I don't know why) but this recent videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVCS6UM2eeI&lc=UgyNmCq3cobIlQayvI14AaABAg.9lmozWeeaxf9lnFEYzh64Eshows a good heat transfer with this printer model.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: Elrico972 on February 07, 2023, 10:07:30 pmWith the Brother at my old job, I tried it, but the toner adhered to the transfer paper too well, and just wouldn’t transfer onto the PCB.

author: DavidKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 12:45:57 pm
content: You can try to use the paper which is used for stickers (for laser printers, with stickers removed) and use direct path in your printer. It should withstand the temperature and the toner will not adhere to it so much. This is more or less try and error. The transferred printing can be removed with acetone.Since HP printers ususally have the OPC drum as a part of the toner cartridge, the quality will depend also on the cartridge.

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 01:03:56 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 07, 2023, 10:40:24 pmI've been using a Brother MFC7440N with yellow PCB transfer paper bought from Amazon. I think I must have made 5 to 10 small PCBs (say 50 mm) over the years. I use a clothes iron. I've never been really satisfied with the results. I don't know if it's due to the printer, but what happens is that I often tear tracks when pulling the transfer paper. That happens even if I let it soak in warm water for a while and even if I pull very carefully. The results are still usable especially if I use a Sharpie to repair tracks before etching, but bear in mind that I use wide tracks (0.5 mm). Sometimes repairing the transfer with a Sharpie is not feasible, and I have to wipe the toner with acetone and start over. FWIW I etch with ferric chloride.I still get better results than what I was getting with photoresist, but that probably just means that I'm not very good at etching PCBs.I'd like to get a new printer anyway since the one I have is a bit old and runs on 110VAC (brought it back from Canada), but I don't want to get a crappy, spyware-ridden printer that will stop working if my credit card expires, or that gives trouble under Linux.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 01:56:09 pm
content: Quote from: DavidKo on February 10, 2023, 12:45:57 pmThat is what the toner transfer paper basically is. Just without having to waste labels.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 02:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: berke on February 10, 2023, 01:03:56 pmYep, that’s what I had with the Brother toner, except I actually have a laminator. No such trouble with HP or Samsung toner.In every case, you have to prepare the PCB surface carefully or no brand of toner will adhere well.Quote from: berke on February 10, 2023, 01:03:56 pmWarm water isn’t used with the yellow transfer paper. Water is for when you use magazine pages and you’re literally dissolving the paper away from the toner. The yellow transfer paper has a plastic-and-silicone coated side, so the water isn’t going to interact with the toner at all… (You are printing onto the glossy side, right??)Quote from: berke on February 10, 2023, 01:03:56 pmA printer will only stop working when your card expires if you choose to sign up for a toner subscription. Such a subscription is completely optional, and you can always use cartridges you buy at a store.As for Linux support: just make sure you get a printer that has PCL or PostScript emulation. Those will work with anything, at least for basic functionality.

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 04:58:58 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 10, 2023, 02:04:25 pmDo you think the laminator helps compared to an iron ? I could try that next.QuoteYes I realize that, I've been using fine sandpaper and/or cleaning it with IPA.QuoteOh OK, I wasn't sure about the water. I tried peeling it dry once. It did indeed seem that water doesn't help much.Yes of course I print on the glossy side.QuoteWait that "printer stops when your card expires" thing wasn't just an urban legend ?QuoteActually printing hasn't given me trouble actually with CUPS/IPP, but for example I got a newer Brother for the wife, when I scan using it with Sane I get lossy JPEG images. I did spend some time getting into the details of the IPP capabilities and tried requesting different formats, but I always ended up with poor quality, lossy scans. I don't have such issues with the MFC7440, but that one needs the Brother drivers, which of course are ancient binaries incompatible with modern systems so I have to use a virtual machine with an old copy of Debian.Maybe those issues disappear if you get a "business grade" device, but I don't feel like spending more than a couple k on a printer.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:00:01 pm
content: Since I have my microscope camera working, I thought I would show a couple of photos of a recent PCB I made by toner transfer. The whitish sections of the photos are actually the black toner reflecting the microscope light. The minimum track width is 10mil, with reasonably clean edges. My printer is a Kyocera P2040dw. Please excuse the quality, as I took the easy route and used my phone to snap the screen of the microscope camera output.

author: freda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:30:30 pm
content: Quote from: berke on February 10, 2023, 01:03:56 pmIts tearing that happens when you use the iron.I use the yellow paper (cheap from aliexpress now),print on the shiny sideI usually get round to organizing a bunch of boards on A4 sizeFor each board leave enough space on 2 sides.I don't cut the paper to the exact size of the pcb, but longer on 2 sides.The extra, form a tab that i fold over the board, then sticky tape it.Now iron it.Hot iron, i think is about 210degCFirm and only needs a few passes.I use an old ancient iron, mum probably used it in the 50ties, lol. Its heavy all by itself.I still stick it in a bath of water after, more out of habit, but maybe helps, at that stage rather not guess just continue with what i did before, its not that much more trouble.I've used HP printer in past, now use Brother HL-L2375DW very successfully.Except I fire up the old laptop with WinXP to print it.The linux driver just doesn't quite work, not sure about it.still, its never worked as well as photoresist (positive). but i seem unable to get goodpositive photoresist these days.its also very troublesome to do those transparency prints.

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 08:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: freda on April 17, 2023, 11:30:30 pmCould be, even though I've tried to be careful. If you iron too much, you distort the tracks. If you don't iron enough, it tears when you pull the transfer paper.I think I'm gonna give laminators a shot.Would PCBs be too thick for common laminators?

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 01:15:53 am
content: Quote from: freda on April 17, 2023, 11:30:30 pmI have used this laminator (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224839360612?hash=item3459786064:g:l8YAAOSwckFfz0Th&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NrVUalz1rQ4rjR9nAF9ZCgxbBTvVxV6U2zNG63mBkY9VQEUJOz6pRr%2FxpFilE2%2BDrkD8zR1fTQTGqo%2BqRKbiEDHykUUE9kNNyEwzi0xPc1m46v8F2z9yE0qE1ucFmBY%2FzKrfFC1hLFonyYEInSHMkMLFlhoMzBxOF1bcogrpW2wbcIWECZt%2BX%2FXFzrWp%2FbuDw3QtzlBJRKsS%2BMcFnd%2BmKb5%2B%2BAqm1VDRF0gSNyWprla2FZkxewN0VcwXgG38E94INQtZ2ke%2BOrQtpfAwu8eaAoY04EBoAYPKqT4sdc4FWmN%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_7d5rH3YQ) with 100% success on PCBs. Temp set to 190C and 5-7 passes, let the pcb cool then peel and 100% toner transfer. I also use the yellow toner transfer paper.

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 09:01:16 am
content: Quote from: moffy on April 26, 2023, 01:15:53 amThat looks like a good deal.Do you know if you would get good results at 180°C?Here I see mostly 20-40 euro junk on Amazon and office supply stores, some of them have thickness specs of max 0.5 mm. Then you jump to 3000 euro machines.But among all that crap I found thishttps://www.amazon.fr/PrimeMatik-Laminateur-Thermique-Plastifieuse-Document/dp/B07C3C6YT3/ref=sr_1_51?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=FAY208T95WIU&keywords=plastifieuse&qid=1682499059&refinements=p_36%3A193647031&rnid=193642031&s=officeproduct&sprefix=plastifieuse%2Caps%2C153&sr=1-51which seems to be pretty close to your model except for the temperature indicator.It only goes to 180°C per its knob graduations. Maybe the government here doesn't trust us with high-temperature laminators!Do you know if 180°C would do it?

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 10:13:06 am
content: Quote from: berke on April 26, 2023, 09:01:16 amLooks very similar, I'm pretty sure that 180C would work, you might just have to run it through once or twice more.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 03:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: moffy on April 26, 2023, 01:15:53 amI use a very similar looking model, with a digital display. (I'd rather have the analog one, lol)It works really well, and - after opening it up based on the "Take it apart" eevblog philosophy - I found it to be quite well made inside, with heavy duty metal gears etc., significantly better than I expected for the price.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 01:37:30 am
content: This is probably the best board I have done, toner transfer wise. I changed 2 settings in the printer driver: 1. High Quality (why I didn't do it before, no idea) 2. Half speed. The print to the eye looked great and when the board was etched the line edges appeared sharper. Minimum track size is 24mil, the minimum pad border looks to be around 6mil.

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2023, 09:21:56 am
content: For the record, I bought a cheap South American River Basics laminator, however it wouldn't accept 1.6 mm PCBs. This was just a matter of opening it and modifying its internal plastic guides. Those guides were preventing the PCB from making its way. I trimmed them with a cutter knife. After that, a gentle push is all it takes for the laminator to accept the PCB.I managed to get decent transfers provided I run the PCB through the laminator about 15 times as suggested, shifting the horizontal position to even out the heat load.Now I need to conjure a better etching tank.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2023, 01:40:29 pm
content: I used to use my original HP Laserjet 5p. It worked OK, but there are so many inexpensive PCB sources these days I can't be bothered doing my own. I just replaced the Laserjet after 28 years, with a new Brother HL-L2370DW XL. Print quality is good but they caution against using almost anything other than standard non-inkjet paper. I'd be nervous putting transfer paper through it. HP made really good stuff back in 1995, but after 28 years plastic bits were breaking off and I had had it open for service multiple times. It was also painfully slow for graphics.

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2023, 09:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on December 18, 2023, 01:40:29 pmI wouldn't bother either f I could get the boards as quickly as I get the components, but it's around 20 to 50 bucks and two weeks basically.QuoteFWIW I'm using a Brother MFC7440N. The transfer paper I have is yellow with one smooth side, it looks very much like label backing paper. (It's not the water-soluble "dextrose" kind.) According to Brotherhttps://support.brother.com/g/b/spec.aspx?c=ca&lang=en&prod=hll2370dw_usyour printer too can accept label backing paper ("Plain Paper, Thin Paper, Thick Paper, Thicker Paper, Recycled Paper, Bond, Label, Envelope, Env. Thin, Env.Thick".), so I wouldn't be afraid of trying transfer paper if I were you.

author: scopeman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 12:34:15 am
content: Hello,Well I went out and bought a Kyocera P2040dw and boy does it lay down the toner. The picture of the board (a control board for the TruLam 320B) that I am making to improve the performance of the laminator. It is from a Hackaday article. I did this using Staples Photo paper but I think that the yellow transfer paper would be the way to go. I have ordered some and the green toner transfer film but that material is a week or so away. The smallest thin line text you see in the picture is 1.3mm high and about 7mills in line thickness. The traces are something like 30 mils. The artwork is for the most part unchanged from the original artwork. I imported the Gerbers into SprintLayout6.0 and then increased the pad sizes and the track sizes and made a few small edits. I also made all of the holes 15mils just for the manual drilling process.Now for my problem:I found a video on YouTube (Russian I believe) where the person uses a mix of Citric Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide. The problem is I can't find out what the ratios should be for proper etching. I really would like to have this work as disposal would be easy just dilute and flush. Much better than FeCL2 or one of the persulfates.I'm not sure that this is even the right place to post this but if anyone has suggestions I am all ears!See below for a link to the hackaday article.https://hackaday.io/project/3363-apache-al13p-tl-320b-one-pass-pcb-toner-xferSamW3OHM

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 12:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: scopeman on January 25, 2024, 12:34:15 amHi, good to know about that model of printer, if my Brother ever breaks down I might look into that. That laminator looks neat, did you have to modify it to be able to introduce PCBs? Do you have to do multiple passes?QuoteI don't understand what the big deal about disposing ferric chloride is. First a given quantity goes a long way. Second, you can mix the unwanted etchant with plaster, let it solidify and then toss it in the general trash. Third, what's the chemistry of used citric acid + H2O2? Won't it contain copper ions as well? It may not eat your drain pipes but could be toxic for some lifeforms.Citric acid is easy to find but for hydrogen peroxide don't you need a certain grade or concentration of H2O2? I think the kind sold in pharmacies is too weak for etching and has stabilizers added to prevent off-label use.

author: scopeman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2024, 05:39:21 am
content: Thank you for your comments.I just etched a board using ratios of 30G Citric Acid, 100G Hydrogen Peroxide and 5G Table Salt elevated to 50C.It works, but the tradeoff is that it's slow.I guess I have to either go with Muratic Acid or fall back onto the more conventional Sodium Persulfate/Mercuric Chloride or just Ferric Chloride as you suggest.Maybe it's not such a big deal. I was just trying to find something easily attainable.Sam