BUSTED: Altium deliberately crippling Circuit Maker? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 12:05:59 am
content: I've heard from a reliable source that Altium have, from day one, deliberately added a "random sleep" routine into Circuit Maker in order to make it deliberately unproductive.This apparently has lead to all sorts of "bugs" like random stuff on the screen, things vanishing when placing etc, mostly in the schematic editor, slow use etc.People have been reporting this stuff for years as bugs, but it seems it's a side effect of adeliberateaction in the code to make the product unproductive.I've also heard that the newly acquired Upverter team are aware of this (Circuit Maker is going to become "Upverter Desktop") and they are not happy, trying to get it removed.I can understand not wanting the free Circuit Maker to compete with Altium Designer, but surely this has to be the worst and most stupid way to go about it?Discuss!

author: jmw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 12:31:48 am
content: They've already said in their literature that Circuit Studio can become unusably slow with larger designs, with no explanations of why, so this totally makes sense.I don't understand why CS/CM exists and why Altium doesn't just offer a non-commercial license for Designer in lieu for the same price. Other professional software makers have figured out how to do this, and they aren't sitting on the steps of the bankruptcy court for it. I remember Mathematica and Maple, two of the big computer algebra/visualization software packages, used to sell for >$3k a seat, with no breaks. Now you can get a full-featured personal license for either for around $300. Autodesk Fusion, a pretty damn good MCAD program if you can hold your nose about the cloud storage part ... completely free if you're making less than $100k revenue/year off it. It's like some companies have figured our it's much better to grow your user base with explorers and advocates knowing some of those people will form teams and buy multiple seats when the time comes.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 12:33:32 am
content: I wonder if it would be possible to patch the executable to remove the sleep command. That would be a fun project!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 12:37:06 am
content: Quote from: jmw on July 09, 2018, 12:31:48 amIs there a reference for that literature?

author: jmw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 12:40:21 am
content: "While there are no 'hard limits' per se, the softwarehas been engineered to make it impractical for use with large designs. To this end, the PCB Editor will start to exibit performance degradation when editing designs containing 5000 pads, becoming virtually unusable with designs containing 50,000 pads. Degradation itself takes the form of progressive slow-down in PCB editing functions (such as routing, placing components, polygon pours, etc)."(emphasis mine)http://documentation.circuitstudio.com/display/CSTU/CircuitStudio+-+((System+Requirements))

author: Carl_Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 12:49:27 am
content: I completely fail to understand the logic behind purposely crippling the lower end product with the idea that it will push people to use the higher end product as their designs get bigger. For me, watching the usability going downhill would reflect negatively on the company as a whole and my opinion of their abilities to write usable software, and I would likely look elsewhere when the time came to upgrade.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 01:00:05 am
content: Quote from: jmw on July 09, 2018, 12:40:21 amCode:if ((time.secs % 3) == 0) delayMicroseconds(padCount * ((rand() % 20) + 1));

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 01:00:32 am
content: Same here, if the lower end product runs poorly, I would assume the high end product is even more complex and just as poorly designed. It's fine if a cheaper product is missing features found in higher cost versions but it should not be more buggy or sluggish.Makes me glad I've been able to move more and more toward open source tools.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 01:02:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 09, 2018, 12:05:59 amAnother reason to"Dislike Altium the company".They do these sneaky things (a bit like Apple slowing down their iPhones if they have an older version of iOS on them) & all it does is piss off the very people they need to keep for their own future survival.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 01:04:28 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 09, 2018, 01:00:32 amMe too. Moved over to DipTrace for most of my designs some 4 years ago. Very happy I did.

author: exit_failure
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 01:04:58 am
content: I don't see why they ever wanted to do it that way. It just makes their own software look like crap and may even drive away potential buyers of their higher end software.Why not simply put clearly visible restrictions on the complexity of the projects you create in the software (like companies used to do with shareware)? I'm sure people would understand, especially from a company that makes their money by selling said type of software. Or am I missing something here?

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 01:52:06 am
content: Isn't enogh differentiation all the extra advanced tools as controles impedance traces, signal integrity check, etc.?JS

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 02:01:31 am
content: Quote from: exit_failure on July 09, 2018, 01:04:58 amThis is what Diptrace does. I was using the lowest tier no-profit version. One day I hit the cap and pow, they got my money for more functionality (more pin allocation).One happy customer here. I knew exactly what I was getting and was happy to pay for more of a good thing.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 02:28:38 am
content: It seems like *deliberately* making the code lock itself out for periods of time is a reliable way to make it look like you develop awful software. And that's an impression that users are going to carry across anything you ever release.But hey, it's Altium Circuitmaker, so I wouldn't be surprised. The complete existence of that product is a giant WTF.The reality we live in, is that pretty much anybody who wants a copy of full AD has one.. You don't even have to search them out - I see people posting cracks onto various Altium related facebook groups!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 05:52:20 am
content: Quote from: jmw on July 09, 2018, 12:40:21 amWow, thanks.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 05:56:49 am
content: They are playing with fire, Circuit Maker is not the only free software.Last week I installed Kicad 5.0 for the first time, in a couple or hours I got used to the shortcuts, configured colors and fonts easily and libraries are plentiful. So bye bye altium from now on.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 07:59:40 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on July 09, 2018, 05:56:49 amThat's why it's completely retarded idea.They make no money from the free CircuitMaker, it'sonlypurpose is to get people 'hooked" and potentially buy the higher end software.If the free software appears buggy and hard to use, they will go elsewhere

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 12:16:28 pm
content: wow, lots of assumed opinions without knowing the ins and outs.If the company explicitly mentions this in their literature there might be lots of other explanations.It only raises questions for me, is the codebase for their products the same, eg is it just a question of some configuration items that differentiate the two.If not it could wel be that they use other technology for their cheaper product, if they use something like Java for it we all know from for instance from IDEs like Eclipse what that can do when the codesize grows.So IMO if anyone has a direct channel to Altium it would be more interesting to ask them the question what the cause is why the software will become extremely slow then to judge and convict without any concrete information.BTW I don't use Altium, have no connections so just an unbiased opinion.

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 01:04:55 pm
content: Hmm. I was considering buying CS to play about with but I guess not! The posts about it in the CS forum here aren't encouraging either. Back to KiCad...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 02:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 09, 2018, 12:16:28 pmI have a good source I trust

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 02:46:29 pm
content: Quote from: tsman on July 09, 2018, 01:04:55 pmI'm not sure exactly what has put you off but CS works well for me. I will never get to the 50K pad limit where CS apparently becomes unusable, even 5000 pads is a substantial design. CS does have limitations but it is a case of 'horses for courses' and in it's market segment its a strong contender. There is a free trial of course, I encourage you to try it.That said, the way KiCad is going its probably going to dominate the lower end of PCB design in years to come

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 03:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 09, 2018, 02:05:52 pmAnd what does (s)he say about this ? Or did I read over it ?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 03:13:45 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 09, 2018, 03:11:59 pmIt's in my first post.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2018, 03:17:16 pm
content: Oh my I have entirely misread this topic and its title.I read "BUSTED" as in the Mythbusters "busted" such that the hypothesis was that Altium was crippling CM and that it was not true.But it is true...... sad very sad

author: Gibson486
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 01:13:09 pm
content: I don't know...maybe they should concentrate on fixing actual bugs in their paid software instead of creating bugs in there free one. AD18 feels so dam rushed and lots of it seems like an afterthought.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 12:29:59 am
content: Quote from: Gibson486 on July 17, 2018, 01:13:09 pmJust like pretty much all their releases since 2002.Often it is best to not update until the last revision of each release. Let other users pull their hair out with all the bugs whilst you concentrate on being productive.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:02:50 am
content: I used to update all my software whenever any sort of updates were available, but these days despite an even stronger push to do so I have become quite well trained to never update anything unless there's a problem that needs fixing, like back in the days of risky BIOS updates on PCs that could brick the motherboard. I understand the need for security patches but I have simply been burned too many times by new bugs, features I used being changed, broken or removed all together, with effort spent on adding new features I didn't want or ask for. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

author: hitech95
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 02:45:40 pm
content: Hi,I'm an active user of the Circuit Maker software. I started to move to something more "Professional" when Eagle switched owner.Since then I used Circuit Maker. I'm a hobbyst so I don't work on huge projects.I can do a simple list on what I have found so far:On schematics sometimes the cursor is hidden while moving stuff, so you can't see where the current part is onOn Medium sizes project with dense pcbs the software view locks, pan around by itself. Sometimes it zoom out.Generally on multiple schematics project there are some synk problems and or rollbacks after a saveSometimes the software freeze on moving or rotating a part. that one looks like a proper delay in the codeRandom DLL errors, when working with more than one project at a time the probability of a dll /stacktrace error is higher. At that point you cant save and do nothing. There is a forced popup on each action that you can try to do.The fanout of components works only outside the board shapeI never tried Circuit Studio due to the fact that the base is the same of CM. I think that this kind of problems are also present on CC. And looks like that those are forced by Altium. The same project opened with a trial of AD are fine. In the 14 days trial I never had a crash or something stupid happening.Unfortunatly I don't have the money to buy the AD so I'm stuck with the CM.Sorry if this post is useless or if it isn't written in a perfect english, I'm on holiday and I wrote this on my phoneI hope this can be helpfull to someone.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 07:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: hitech95 on August 08, 2018, 02:45:40 pmNo-one is forced by Altium to do anything.There are plenty of alternatives out there, particularly if you do not design computer motherboards.I moved about 4 years ago from AD to DipTrace. For me it has been a much more productive tool as it has a simple interface & does not complain when moving from a schematic to pcb like Altium often does.Another product that is very good is Proteus.The reason Altium introduced both Circuit Studio & Circuit Maker was because they had no traction in these lower end markets. Unfortunately Circuit Maker in not much more than a toy. What is your time worth? Altium treat their Circuit Maker users with contempt ........... and there is no money in it for them to fix all the bugs.You need to be pro-active. You need to use forums like this to advise prospective users about how bad Circuit Maker really is .................. & you need to find an alternative product that works well for you.Altium removed all the keyboard shortcuts from Circuit Studio. How stupid! This alone makes DipTrace a more productive product. I just set up all of AD keyboard shortcuts in DipTrace & away I went. A pseudo AD (in many respects) for a fraction of the cost.And yes, I can easily use DipTrace to design computer motherboards if required.But also check out Proteus. Their products are also very good. I particularly like their microcontroller simulation tools which sync perfectly with their schematic program.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 08:31:54 pm
content: This is how engineering of the second decade of the 21st century looks like. Engineers are the last decision makers blame marketing.