LPKF Protomat S62 PCB router-Anyone used one? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2011, 10:59:02 am
content: Looks like I'll have to learn to use the LPKF Protomat S62 at work. Has anyone used one of these routers? If so, are there any problems I should be aware of and any workarounds tips. Links to tutorials would also be appreciated. Thanks.David.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2011, 09:04:59 am
content: Fiducial recognition can sometimes be a bit of a pain when you flip the board to mill the other layer. I found that marking the fiducial locations with a pen before you flip it (directly on the white vacuum bed) helps aligning the board a bit faster.Turn the vacuum cleaner off when you flip the boardTry to gently scrape the side of a PCB over the vacuum bed when you flip a board, it helps removing any left over residue from the drilling stage.Be aware of the wear of the tools. I once prototyped a rather complex project where milling one side alone took 40 minutes. When I got ready to flip it, I noticed that the last few traces weren't cut deep enough. It's a good idea to get familiar with the tool adjustment program, even though you may find it a bit annoying and end up just hitting 'no' when it asks for tool adjustment (can turn that off in the settings btw). You never know what kind of mess the guy who used the machine before you left, so I found it a good practise to always adjust the tools.Hmm, I may have some pictures somewhere, it's difficult to verbalize this.EDIT: added picturesTool adjustment. First picture is a brand new tool, second is slightly used and needs to be adjusted slightly deeper.Tool worn out at the end of 40 minutes of milling. (First board)Same tool, adjusted. (second board)Same tool, adjusted a bit too deep. (third board)

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2011, 10:26:16 am
content: Thanks for the info.It has a separate X60 monocular microscope to help with the adjustment. What are the main mechanical steps needed to adjust the depth or is it all done in software? How long do the tools last on average with simple boards?I don't understand the fiducial recognition bit. The bare boards I will be using use 2 pre-drilled pin holes at the centre edges. The machine has predrilled 2 holes for 2 metal pins to be inserted in 2 plastic strips. The holes in the board line up with the 2 pins, so I'm assuming the fiducial recognition is only applicable to boards without these holes. How do you normally line up this type of board?David.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2011, 06:51:28 pm
content: Ah, sounds like the machine is a bit different from ours, apparently the fiducial camera system is optional. Our machine has no metal pins and I have to drill 4 fiducial holes as the very first stage of any board I mill. Using metal pins to lock the board in place sounds a lot easier. Does it have the vacuum cleaner option?Depending on the software setting, you will see this box everytime a tool is changed.I am using the camera to measure the width of the trench "universal cutter 0.2 mm (8 mil)" (orange plastic ring). I do have a monocular microscope too but I find it too inconvenient to use since it needs a strong light source. Anyway, to adjust the depth of the cutting tool you will typically mill a short line somewhere where it doesn't interfere with your board (right next to it is fine) and measure the depth. (move the head into pause/parking position etc to open the cabinet)A screenshot of the camera measuring the width of the universal cutter. I can mark two spots with the mouse and the software will display a delta x / delta y.There's a metal ring/adjustment wheel around the dremel tool which you can turn clockwise to lower the tool and counterclockwise to lift it. The wheel is rather stiff but has identifiable increments. Turn it a few clicks, like five or so, to tune the depth and repeat milling a line/measuring until satisfied. You can actually see this in the first picture of my previous post. I milled like 4 mm or something, adjusted the depth and milled another 4 mm to the right and was satisfied with the width.In short: Select a spot where you will mill a short line manually.Start the motor (vacuum starts), lower the head, use the arrow keys in the software to move the head a short distance, lift the head, stop the motor and move the head into pause/parking position, open the cabinet and check the width. Repeat until satisfied.The main tool (universal cutter) typically lasts 30000...40000 mm. We set the threshold to 30000 but as they are a bit expensive, you can try to squeeze out a little more. Worst thing to happen is that the tool breaks and simply won't cut at all. Be sure to monitor the quality of the cut.Here's the tool setup we use at the moment, note the "Maximum " number of each tool. For drills this means number of holes drilled.I marked the buttons needed to adjust the tool (attached higher quality version as a file)

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2011, 07:58:14 pm
content: Thanks for a very helpful post. It's good to find someone else who uses these tools. I hope you don't mind me popping back and asking more questions as I start to use it.I do have the vacuum cleaner and table attached. I might try to get a camera fitted if possible as It will be easier to see properly.One problem I've noticed is that the vaccum plate/table under the board has been etched into by the router/drill when it was demonstrated. Is this usual or is the bit going lower than it should? More questions later. Thanks.

author: elCap
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2011, 03:34:51 am
content: I have used one of the more simple LPKF, about 13 years ago. S62 looks quite advanced. What comes to mind is (if my memory is correct):Use as few hole sizes as possible. (the one I used didn't have a automatic tool changer, very disturbing if you are waiting for the board to finish and then you find out that it have been waiting the last hour for you to change tool from 0.8 to 0.81mm)Don't let the machine take away the unused copper areas, takes too long time. Easy to do yourself using solder pen, heat them away. Or use as extra ground plane. But if you're making big boards or many maybe it's good to let the machine do it, I don't know.After the board was finished, I normally rubbed it off using steel wool. It takes away all sharp edges and makes it easier to solder.On the machine I used I had to make one hole at each center edge of the board (same as you said). It's very important that they are in perfect line and that they have a perfect fit to the pins on the machine when making double side boards. If not done correctly, top and bottom layer will not match.I used tape to fix the board firmly to the machine, important for double sided boards. Worked quite good, but little messy. Be careful so there is a margin between tape and mill head.Flip the board along the center axis when doing double sided boards... (yes... I was very tired that day!)I have seen cutting of the table as well. Make sure you use extra board, thick paper or whatever is recommended under the PCB being milled and drilled. Also make sure you use the correct tools and that they are mounted correctly in its holderCheck adjustments of the tools before starting (as Neganur recommends). I find that very important for big boardsThe system is very noisy - use ear protectionThis type of PCB mill is very useful, I wish I had one.

author: shanes1007
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 05:11:20 pm
content: For those interested in how LPKF milling machines have advanced, check out this document:http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/then-and-now.pdfWe'll also be doing a webinar on the topic soon:https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/930280454Finally, if you ever have any usage concerns please contact support: 503-454-4229

author: Arslan.Ejaz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2014, 05:25:29 am
content: Hi there.I am Arslan and i have protomat S 62. We have worked a lot and manufactured numerous number of boards. But lately, the machine has some strange errors. Sometimes, it never connects to the board master. Sometimes, it starts milling the unwanted areas and destroys the boards. Guess it has alignment issues with x and y axis too.Anyone out there who can tell me what to do to fix it? It will be really helpful.Regards.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2014, 10:21:58 pm
content: I run a small PCB prototyping facility capable of making multilayer PCBs up to 8 layers ( so far)I looked at LPKF and MITS equipment, both very good but expensive.Decided to make my own. Did so in 2007 and am very happy with my decisions.While the above suppliers offer balistic stepper motor system my machine uses BLDC servo and linear encoder feedback.I went with a 100KRPM spindle from Alfred Jaeger. So far no automatic tool changer but have provision for it in the machine frame.Quality of cutting tools is paramount.LPKF tools are great but expensive.I have found the new tapered stub tooling from precise bits to be superior performer to LPKF at a better price. I highly recommend them. If ordering specify LPKF model so that the depth rings can be set to a correct setting.Enjoy your new toy. I do.NOTE ..VERY IMPORTANT.. LPKF tools are specified for very light copper ( 17 micron... ) You will find tool life degrade as thicker copper is machined.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2014, 10:59:25 pm
content: i did work with it for few month, the tool adjustment is totally manual, there is no software control for the vertical axes, so you will have to test how far the tool is penetrating the PCB, many test should be done with the help of the camera it's not hard to get it right with a new tool but it become a pain in the ass once the tool is used.PCB can bend on the border so try to place your circuit in the center,after using the machine many time, the work table surface become irregular and you will have some area better routed than other, some area not routed at all or over penetrated by the tool , can be a problem with thin traces.The LPKF S62 is a nice tool in the lab, really useful to make a rapid prototype but it can turn to a nightmare with all the problems related to milling process, i think the tools are expensive 500$ for a set of 24 tool i think , and have to be changed so often , i remember some tools can be used for a single board.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2014, 11:19:07 pm
content: Hamdi,As I pointed... LPKF tools are specified for very light copper.Precise bits tools are equal to LPKF quality of finish, more robust and less expensive.http://www.precisebits.com/products/carbidebits/tapered_stub_125.aspThese tools give a much longer life while maintaining a quality of cut.I run them at 40KRPM and 1000mm/min linear feed rate and get 50 meter of cut out of them.IT IS BETTER TO PUSH THE TOOL TO THE EDGE OF FAILURE RATHER THAN TO NOT PUSH THEM HARD ENOUGH ONLY TO SEE THEM GET ABRADED DUE TO LOW FEED RATE.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2014, 11:45:20 pm
content: i forgot to mention that we stopped using the machine cause a bearing broke, cheap bastard boss didn't want to replace it, the machine never worked since. Am not in this company any more, and if am going invest money for a router it will not be this one.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2015, 06:27:23 am
content: I bought a S62, and after 8 months of trying to get it to work, under threat of legal action, it was returned and money refunded. If your serious about Prototyping PCB's, then this is not the way to go about doing it. And i was, and so i spent the big bucks to make it happen. Got the worst customer service from the distributor in Australia, which did'nt help.Wasted a ton of time and money. Doesn't work as advertised.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2015, 01:06:22 am
content: Mr Packethead,where are you located?

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2015, 07:42:39 am
content: Mr Packethead,I guess we are not in the same neighbourhood for a quick visit for a show and tell and a cup of coffee.I was seriously considering LPKF and MITS but decided to roll my own.Saved some money and ended up with a smarter design of machine frame ( servo loops versus ballistic stepper motor design).

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2015, 10:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on January 07, 2015, 07:42:39 amI'm in Wellignton, NZ. Often in Australia ( Melbourne ) though. The complexity of our board designs now pretty much dictate that Milling them is just not going to be a viable option.. ( 4+ layers, blind vias, various odd substrates etc etc ). Yes, it can be done, but the time and money isn't worth it, when i can have a properly made board, shipping in 2-3 days.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 10:49:57 pm
content: Making a multilayer board is a process which requires other equipment. Do you have a multilayer press?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2015, 06:10:27 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 24, 2015, 10:56:04 pmI looked seriously at these machines, but ultimately came to the same conclusion. The machine is expensive and needs a skilled person to operate it. 2 sided PCBs to shake down a new concept is about all I could figure it would be good for. All of our PCB's are 4+ layers. The process, equipment, and skills needed to make 4 layer PCB's seemed much more challenging than ordering prototype PCB's that will arrive a few days later. It generally takes the same amount of time for me to order and receive parts from Digikey so there is no real delay.I could not make financial sense of it.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 01:39:36 am
content: QuoteBecause there is'nt any.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 11:29:14 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 04, 2015, 06:10:27 pmwell it depend, in Tunisia, there is no small series and prototyping PCB manufacturer only mass production manufacturer, so to get a prototype you have the choice either to pay lot of money for a small run with a local pcb manufacturer, or to import from Europe which cost a lot too and complex procedure with custom and banks and all that crap (delays are over 4 weeks ), so having one of those is really useful to speed things up.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 11:38:21 am
content: I've seen a few of those LPKF Protomat machines in various places, but always in a corner or storeroom gathering dust. I don't know how well they work, but a machine that can only produce a single layer board is of limited value these days.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 11:58:33 am
content: QuoteQuoteNot everybody makes boards using cheapo FR4. If you want to make something like a 16 layer board with various laminates including outer layers using RF laminates like Rogers 4300 or 4350 then you could easily be looking at £1500 to make just one first off PCB if you order from somewhere like Graphic or Exception here in the UK.So the milling machine can be very useful for prototyping the critical sections on the outer Rogers layers as standalone 2 layer boards and this can reduce technical risk a lot when you make the complete board.This could be a PCB section containing a (xGHz) printed coupler, a printed filter, an oscillator, an RF switch or all of them together. Time is money especially when the time causes holdups in development. It's possible to make and test several iterations of the above prototype(s) in one day with a milling machine.I've been using T-Tech and LPKF machines like this for many years at work and nothing else can compete for the stuff I do. If anyone can propose something better then I would be very interested to see it

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 06:08:18 pm
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on October 14, 2015, 11:29:14 amThat is kind of what I was thinking. I live in Los Angeles, California where it is very easy and inexpensive to have PCB's very quickly from a number of vendors.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 04:28:59 am
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on October 14, 2015, 11:29:14 amthe delays with using the mill will run to forever, becuase the trouble it causes, is huge!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 04:31:14 am
content: Quote from: G0HZU on October 14, 2015, 11:58:33 amwell, your lucky.. After 8 months of massive head banging, my LPKF S63 got shipped back to them permantnly, it was the biggest waste of time and money, grandted they gave my money back, but i'd waste hundreds of hours on somethign that simply did'nt work. The Australian Distributors were shocking.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 11:40:09 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on October 15, 2015, 04:31:14 amMaybe you were unlucky and got sent an unreliable/faulty unit?Also, back in the 1990s when we bought the first T-Tech 7000S machine at work the company made the mistake of letting all the engineers use it without any formal training. With hindsight this was crazy and we were lucky no one lost a finger as these older machines had little in the way of safety measures.But most of the engineers hated it because they just expected it to spit out a PCB with minimal input from them. But in reality, these machines do need an experienced user in order to produce good results and also to prevent damage to the user or to the machine or its tools.We got around this by only allowing two trained techs to use it on our behalf. They took to it really well and the machine then started giving great results. The newer LPKF machines are slightly better in terms of tool selection and setting the cut depth and they appear to be a lot safer too. So the quality improved a bit when we switched to LPKF.Here at home I use a T-Tech 7000S that was originally owned by HP here in the UK. I assume it was HP up in Scotland? From what I gather from the seller, they bought it new, used it a few times, hated it and left it alone until they eventually upgraded to an LPKF machine. I was in the right place at the right time to buy this virtually unused 7000S complete with all the tools and spares and extraction system for about £800. The seller thought it was useless because HP had lost the SW dongle so he thought he was getting a good price from me for 'scrap'. But I found that the crude dongle based protection system wasn't that difficult to bypassI still use the same machine today and it is still running great

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 03:51:40 pm
content: i don't think it's really a luck thing ... as i said above and many other said it , it's a machine that need special care, it's a perfect machine when used correctly with the a periodic maintenance. and used by trained ppl.Quote from: rx8pilot on October 14, 2015, 06:08:18 pmsure, i don't see why anyone will buy a milling machine when he can order prototype cheaply and fast delivered.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 06:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on October 15, 2015, 11:40:09 amNo, the software was buggy as an infestation. Thats not an unrelaible unit. And as it turns out, i'd bought a more entry level machine and when it didn't work properly, i agreed to buy a more expensive machine.... ( S62 ) and that didn't work either. Software was a complete dog, and no end of updates fixed it. It was made worse by absolute terrible customer support from the people i bought it from.What seemed like a good idea, just was'nt. Lucky i got out and got my money back. Just lots of wasted time. The local university aslo bought one. They get there boards made outsourced now.In any case, with 4 and 6 layer boards being common place now, the mill just won't cut it for us.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 07:48:10 pm
content: Interesting about the buggy SW from LPKF. At work we probably haven't updated the LPKF CircuitCAM SW for a very long time but I don't get to use it myself as only the techs are allowed to use the company machine. We only have a basic router and I think it's the little C30S model.Although I have T-Tech machines here at home I worked out how to modify the LPKF SW to run and isolate to produce milling files for my T-Tech machines and I've been using it like this for many years. I'm still using LPKF CircuitCam V4.4 which dates back to about 2002 and it has been flawless. The isolation algorithms in the LPKF SW are far superior to the T-Tech/Isopro ones so I spent a fair bit of time working out how to get it to produce compatible files for my T-Tech machine.I'm also running a similar vintage (dated 2002) of T-Tech's Isopro SW to then load these LPKF files and do the actual milling.I've never bothered to update the SW because it works so reliably and I was advised by another user to dedicate a basic (old) Windows 98SE PC just to milling and to never change anything on it once the system was running OK. I've stuck by this for many years and I've had no problems. This simple old school PC only does milling and stays next to the machine.Maybe the newer versions of LPKF SW are becoming bloated and buggy? I guess that having a modern bloated OS can cause issues too?

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2015, 09:23:38 pm
content: Can You compare the IsoPro and LPKF isolation algorithms..Can you post a sample of isopro workfile?

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2015, 12:29:35 am
content: Generally speaking, the LPKF isolation and rubout algorithm is a combined process in that you can tell it which tools you want to use and also how many sizes of rubout tools you want to use as well as letting you choose the optimal direction of the rubout process. It is very versatile in this respect.When it mills, it does so more efficiently as it often blends the various movements into one flowing movement rather than the cruder isopro algorithm that tends to rubout in a crude one way scanning fashion.i.e. Isopro tends to just rubout using a crude left to right action using the crudest one way scanning algorithm possible. So there a re lots of Z axis up/down movements and lots of scan reset movements with the tool in the UP position. So it is slow and uses a lot more mechanical movements.LPKF rubout is more like a snake that tries to keep the tool head down as much as possible.With my old version of Isopro, the rubout tool HAS to be the finest tool you use for the isolation and so you only get to choose one rubout tool and it is therefore the least efficient tool (usually the pointed tool!). Also, the rubout is buggy and this applies to saved files. So if you edit the mill file and try and save it the SW messes up the rubout meaning you have to set up the rubout all over again. So this makes it a pain to use if you want to mill several copies of a saved project. It is just too buggy and I very rarely use Isopro for generating isolation or rubout layers.However, it is quite good in terms of editing artwork layers and isolation layers as long as you don't use rubout at any time.I expect/hope that the latest versions of Isopro will address a lot of these issues.QuoteNot sure what you mean. Do you mean an Isopro screenshot of a basic PCB that is ready for milling after all the isolation and rubout has been done?

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2015, 07:10:49 am
content: I have seen LPKF software but have not had any hands on.I undertand Iso Pro may be based on a commercial Gerber cam application.Again no hands-on with IsoPro. Would like to see a completed job file form IsoPro . The file contains the job data and I think it ends in a .gwk extension.Back to IsoPro is there anywhere in the editing / isolation menus a reorder function where You can reorder the sequence of tool paths?The reason I am asking is as follows, I use a Gerber cam station on which I think Iso pro is based. Would like to see how the Isopro deals with certain issues.For example I derive isolation for any tool size, resort and reconnect tool path especially under rubout conditions to minimise idle air cutting time, overlap tool paths any percentage I deem fit, incorporate outline isolation along with rubout , flip and massage layer data etc.