eBay's purchase protection program doesn't really work! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 01:22:48 pm
content: So I bought qty=8, Seagate Barracuda ST500DM002 500GB 7200rpm s/ATA hard-drives on eBay. In the listing, they were described as "never used", which should mean less than 40 hours when testing the unit, however upon inspection with professional testing (GNU/Linux diskutils-) tools three units were found to have run for over ~6000 hours (still with NTFS files in them, not even deleted) and one unit for more than 400 hours, and it is unacceptable that the seller does not try to solve the problem, like-Sorry, can I offer a replacement or refund for defective discs?(a serious seller "should" react this way)Absolutely not, that guy is the classic dude that doesn't care other people time and projects, and on the contrary he only cares about his ownNEGATIVEfeedback, his own holidays or whatever bullshit he invents, without any care for the customer!Worse, it is unacceptable that, after providing all the evidence, screenshots of the tests and copies of the various requests made to the seller, all of which were ignored or prevaricated, eBay closes the case without any explanation.Return reason: Doesn't match description or photosSeller: mr "1963-06"Return case: escalated to eBay Customer SupportResult: Return closed, no reason specified -> eBay protection program failedeBay really doesn't seem like a serious place to me, maybe I'm repeating something obvious, but damn how much these things irritate me:"item not as described + evidence" sometimes doesn't work!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 02:03:49 pm
content: this stuff was for an experimental RAID, which I was supposed to develop and test in mid-September, and it doesn't matter... I can also work with those HDDs because at least they don't have badblocks, but it's a matter of principle that I really don't like!I'm quite unlucky with HDDs, every time I have to struggle to get *exactly* the things I read the description for

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 02:41:14 pm
content: Ebay listing #?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 03:29:39 pm
content: It'sthisone!I copy the item description here:QuoteCondition -Opened, never used- sure, so what if eBay dudes came to you and asked for photos? what are you going to photograph to demonstrate that you have 7000 hours of work on some of them and several GB of files?

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 03:36:35 pm
content: That's why I don't buy used disks any more. It's practically impossible to prove that e.g. screenshots of disk age is from the actual disk that you bought. Could be forged easily. So it's word against word.A long time ago I won an auction for some used SCSI disks for a bargain, probably because nobody else bid on them. The seller began to protest that I got them too cheap. In the end I ended up paying a little more for them, because he refused to ship them. What an ass.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 03:37:51 pm
content: If it's "opened, never used" it certainly sounds like a scam.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 03:40:10 pm
content: Another totally unreliable thing, the "accurate description" rating, from one to five stars of five stars, which usually never corresponds to reality!Like, last month I bought some wheels for my bicycle, requested as "this marvelous set of Campagnolo Lambda wheels have no bumps, they are straight and have done a few km, the brake tracks are in excellent condition", and they arrivedwith a deep scratch on the front rimwith both the rear and front braking surfaces very wornA sign that it is NOT true that they have done a few km, or rather "a few" should mean < ~100K, while to produce that wear they have done at least >5000km!Even in that case the seller proved to be dishonest and not at all inclined to solve the problem, so I turned to eBay customer service, and in that case as defects could be photographed on physical objects rather than on the screen of a testing program, I took photos of the defects, and eBay refunded me.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 03:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: JohanH on September 25, 2023, 03:37:51 pmThere's a seller named PitBull-something. Unfortunately, they only sell SCSI or FB disks. I must have bought something like qty=200 HDDs, some for me, some for friends. Never a single problem!When it tells you "open, never used", it means exactly what it's telling you:- we picked it up from a warehouse, from a pallet that contained 50 HDDs- stacked together each in a thin protective shell- therefore disks have undergone various movements from one warehouse to another- each disk was found sealed into an antistatic bag with the procucer's seal- before listing on eBay, we opened each bag to check with badblocks that everything is fine with the disk- so each disc will come to you with maximum 40 hours of operation(1)- re-packaged into an antistatic bag with our logo-sealwhich is both serious and honest, therefore acceptable!(1) testing 500GB with badblocks may require 8-10 hours

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 04:24:38 pm
content: Something is not adding up here...I am an experienced eBay seller. Whenever I get a claim brought up against an order from a buyer, it always defaults to the buyer being awarded the refund and the seller either being charged for a return or being required to provide funds for return shipping or uploading a shipping label.If the seller does not respond, eBay steps in and awards the buyer the refund, taking it straight out of the seller's bank account.If the seller does respond, the seller has to provide an outstanding amount of evidence to counter the claim.eBay protection is heavily favoured on the buyer's side and they know it and abuse it.Sellers can list "for parts not working" and the buyer can make a claim saying "it does not work" and be awarded the refund.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 04:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on September 25, 2023, 04:24:38 pmSure, something is not adding up here, and I would like to understand why eBay closed the request WITHOUT giving any reason!This is the second time something similar has happened to me with IT products, that is, when I CANNOT take a photo of the defect on the object because to show the defect I have to take a screenshot of a computer program.So what the frog here? *THE* point is: why put things on sale that claim false things? eh? "never used disks when they have 7000 hours?"WHATTHEFROGHow much time do they waste with that? eh?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 05:08:51 pm
content: umm, now that you make me think about it..., you can't even prove that you get a busted bearing (bicycle part, 1 year ago), because what can you photograph when you can't take it apart?Sealed bearing, I don't even have the equipment to dismantle it from the hub, and it's not even trivial. It was a defective Chorus sealed bearing front hub from 1998, listed as "very good condition", which sure, aesthetically it was exactly like the photo in the eBay listing, too bad it had broken bearingsSo, 60+15 S/H euros wasted, another rip-off I got, as eBay closed the case as "that's your business".At this point, as far as I understand, you just have to pray that the seller doesn't respond, so eBay will refund you automatically.... maybe

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 05:21:52 pm
content: I believe I know what has happened here.You bought the disks with your understanding of “opened, never used” and that was an understandable view that the disks were unused, with no serious hours on them.The seller stated the following in his auction……“New or as good as newAll plates are in the original protective film and originally sealed”I suspect that the eBay claim assessor saw your description of the problem and viewed it as unwarranted as all of the drives tested as working. They did not consider the hours run on the drives as a valid reason to award the claim to you. “As good as new” can be misinterpreted if it only related a to physical condition. If the drives had actual failures noted in the tests then I believe eBay would have found in your favour. This is not fair to you but the eBay claim agent may not be technical and may not appreciate that hours run on a drive most definitely affects whether it may be described as new or “as good as new”. EBay look for physical failures or cosmetic damage, not HDD SMART reports. They view it as “the drives are clearly working with no recorded errors so what are you complaining about”.I buy used hard drives for projects where I cannot justify buying a new drive. If I need a drive for archiving or other important duties I buy brand new from a reliable source. There are too many people playing games on eBay these days and I do not need the hassle or wasting of my time sorting the mess out with eBay !As a side note, I have thankfully not had too many problems with sellers in the past but in the last 2 years eBay has become like the Wild West with all sorts of shenanigans from sellers, including refusal to ship at the final price and also demanding additional money before shipping. No surprises that eBay have always promptly refunded me as my cases were pretty black & white with plenty of evidence of wrong doing on the eBay messaging system.Sadly at my old age of 56 I very much believe in reporting these wrong doers to eBay, leaving carefully worded hard core negative feedback and moving on with my life. Getting stressed over a bad seller is really not worth it these days. A deep breath and move on with life is my recommendation.Fraser

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 07:05:20 pm
content: I haven't really used eBay in almost 10 years so I could be misremembering but it seems at one time they didn't allow using wording such as "like new" or "good as new". An item was either new or it wasn't. Maybe that has changed.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 07:56:59 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on September 25, 2023, 07:05:20 pmI don't know, I've never understood, but many people do it in their listing on eBay, creating quite a bit of confusion.I bought a titanium Speedwell frame for around 3000 euros, described "like new", which might make sense given that it is an object from the 80s, kept in storage for more than how many? 40 years? Naturally, although it has never been mounted, it is not "new" as it has some signs of movement, and of course you have to fix the threads.However, given the enormous amount to shell out, I traveled almost 900 km to go and see it and collect it in person, then loading it on a plane on the way back.The seller was honest, in fact he described the item "like new" when it was *actually* new! That is, he remained in its wooden house for 40 years, which no one had ever touched.- - -However, I also came across a multimeter described as "like new" which had broken bushings and various cracks on the cover. In short, definitely used! OK, you can replace the bushings, ok you can replace the cover, but... that's not the correct description!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 08:00:33 pm
content: Ebay does now allow "New - Open Box" category. Seehttps://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/creating-managing-listings/item-conditions-category?id=4765. Among other things, the description says "may have been used for testing or demo purposes." But I don't think that 6000+ hours of run time fits that description.IMO the seller should have refunded the purchaser's price on the three used disks but the sale was so long ago that I can't find a record of it on E-bay. I wonder if the OP waited too long to file a complaint with Ebay? There is no date or valid auction number in the information that he provided.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 08:13:01 pm
content: Why would you even buy that garbage? Those drives are unreliable trash. I'd have more trust in cheap Chinese SSD rather than those.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 10:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 25, 2023, 08:00:33 pmYes. Item condition category is the important thing here, IMO.I don't know whats up with OPs link or if its a ebay region thing, but if I go here:https://www.ebay.de/p/12061230791It says "Item condition: New".If that is the case then OP is justified and easily would have won the ebay case if they said condition did not match, just provide a photo of the received drives.But if they listed it as "Used" then I wouldn't waste my time either buying it thinking it was new, or arguing over it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 10:25:14 pm
content: Used HDDs would be the last thing I'd buy from eBay. I've bought used CPUs, motherboards and RAM with little to no problem, but it's always a bit of a gamble.I have in the past, but won't buy anything "new" on eBay. It's often either not actually new, or prices for *really* new stuff are totally unreasonable compared to other platforms. If some items are tagged new on eBay and prices look very attractive, then there's a 99.9% probability that it's used gear, maybe not even tested.Never had to use purchase protection, so no opinion there. From my experience, the best setup is to directly deal with the seller via message. Had mixed experience, but that's to be expected. Some will fully refund with no question, some will partially refund, some will offer a discount on your next purchase.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 10:29:42 pm
content: In my personal experience both eBay and Paypal are crap and a pain to deal with if you have any problems but I only buy low value items so I am not too concerned.I buy a lot from China and I have generally had no problems and got a fast refund if the item was not received which has happened a few times.One time I bought an 18V 10 A switching power supply and it did not arrive so I wrote the seller and he responded with a tirade of insults calling me a liar and "worse than an animal". It was funny. I claimed from eBay and got a prompt refund. Then, a few days after that, and after I got a replacement elsewhere, the item arrived. Normally I would have told the seller but given what had happened I just kept it. It is still in the box, unwrapped.I also buy a lot from the USA with shipping to a USA address and, again, I generally have not had major problems but because of the buyers, not because of eBay. Once I bought a couple 750GB HDD and when I got them and tried them they got awfully hot. I told the seller and he offered to send me another two but when I got them they also ran very hot. I just let the thing slide. I use those HDD for backups and applications where they will not be running for very long periods of time.I recently bought a desktop from Germany and everything went well but I generally avoid buying in Europe and this for several reasons. I have had bad experiences with Spanish sellers, items from UK are too expensive and too expensive to ship, etc.But when I have had problems either with eBay or Paypal they have been a royal PITA.I only buy. I have thought of selling but I do not need that aggravation.In America Amazon works very well.I have family and friends who come often and they always bring me a load of purchases. In fact, I will be collecting a load of goodies arriving on Friday.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 10:58:47 pm
content: I always test them with MHDD in dos to identify slow or bad sectors.Did it come sealed in an anti static bag?If it is suppose to be new and it has bad sectors with signs of overheating (like the colors of the metal around the screw on the pcb, fingerprint marks and is sealed into an anti static bag to make it looked brand new I'd be on the phone to Ebay that it is fraud//misselling.With 6000 hours, that's 250 days nearly a year. Misrepresentation maybe?If it is openbox it has been removing from it's original packaging BUT powered on/utilized and used for testing then how can it be clased as new?Quote from: Stray Electron on September 25, 2023, 08:00:33 pmQuoteI'd be on the phone to them that it has been used for nearly a year.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 01:13:19 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 25, 2023, 08:13:01 pmWhy do you say that?Many years ago I bought qty=32 of those Seagate Barracuda ST500DM002, never experienced a problem!I specifically looked for that model because I know how it works, and 500Gb is more than enough for what I need to do:1) put qty=4 of those disks into my sATA to SCSI box, which does not accept disks larger than 500GB2) develop and test my own filesystem, this time with RAID support

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 01:19:53 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 25, 2023, 10:25:14 pmWhere do you buy 2010 NOS s/ATA HDDs?I rely on a physical store for NOS SCSI and FB disks, but they don't have sATA or SAS disks.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 01:49:29 am
content: Quote from: soldar on September 25, 2023, 10:29:42 pmbad news, I just found out that now when you buy on eBay and pay with Paypal you can no longer file a complaint with Paypal as they redirect the complaint to eBayit could be done before, and it was a double guaranteeQuoteI bought something like qty=50 Hitachi 4GB micridrives from China ... and in loop they continued to send boxes of 10 pieces, of which then 4..5 were always defective, and they sent others as replacements... I spent a few months constantly receiving packages and testing those damn things, until we finally had all those bloody 50 functioning units within the required specifications.yes, honest (out of eBay, paid with Paypal), but those I did business with have appalling shallow QA.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 02:27:34 am
content: eBay and PayPal have parted ways as far as I've understood, so yeah there is no real benefit using PayPal now.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 03:32:43 am
content: You can normally appeal ebays decision within 30 days. The buyers appeal process is mentioned in the help, keyword"appeal" will find it.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:28:00 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 25, 2023, 05:21:52 pmSo, I made a phone call to eBay customer service, and it sounds like you described what happened perfectly.They asked me to go to a store and ask to a tecniciatn to write down on formal paper, to be then scanned and email them, that those four defective disks are not as described.Definitely misunderstood - Defect, what? - They don't understand the 6000 hours thing, for them, if they aren't broken, they're fine.I could also do it, but it's a total waste of time, better to leave half the project alone and be comfortable with those four truly NOS discs.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:53:17 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 25, 2023, 08:13:01 pmDo they even have the advertised capacity?Also, thishttp://blog.gsmarena.com/how-do-you-spot-fake-chinese-usb-hard-drives-well-you-take-them-apart/

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:59:17 am
content: Quote from: magic on September 26, 2023, 04:53:17 amYes, this is pretty typical.In the same vein, I have seen cheap chinese tablets with great specs on paper. The tablets appeared to work properly, albeit not with the CPU performance and RAM size that would match what was advertised.The advertised CPU and RAM size were reported as such in CPU-Z though and a number of other tools.The installed Android was patched to report a false CPU ID and false RAM size.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:59:42 am
content: By the way, I had the exact same problem once, except buying one unit from a private person.In that case, I ran photorec on the disk and recovered tons of the guy's personal files (family photos, videos, documents, you name it). Being kind guy I am, I emailed the seller and politely suggested that he must have accidentally sent me a wrong disk. Of course he denied everything, so I countered with a brief summary of all the content I found. He became cooperative very fastLesson: erase your disks properly before selling them as new.Indeed, erase them, period. Now ntfsundelete and photorec are the next thing I run after smartctl on all used disks. And yes, I buy used disks. A good deal cheaper than new and still almost as good. HDD failures are a random thing, the only benefit of buying new is warranty and that matters only if it dies completely in the first two years.A few thousand hours is practically a virgin

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 06:55:11 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 26, 2023, 02:27:34 amIf you paid by paypal you still have their own purchase protection.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:44:10 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 26, 2023, 06:55:11 amYes, if you paid by Paypalbut outside eBayyou still have their own purchase protection.When I tried to make a complaint on Paypal, they replied that it cannot be done for purchases made on eBay and paid for through them, you have to make a complaint on eBay.It used to be possible, but not anymore, don't ask me why

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 11:03:52 am
content: Quote from: magic on September 26, 2023, 04:59:42 amOn three of the HDDs that were supposed to be "new, never used" to the seller-dude I found a few german comics scanned albums and a couple of movie, not even good entertainment quality like, but that's it, personal tastes, and a comprehensive documentary on the birds of Baviera Bird Watching? with route maps, several videos and photos that look like they were uploaded from an old smartphone and things like that.It seems for "wild adventures" ... I just hope those discs were used anywhere that wasn't mobile, rather than in an camper, facing many obstacles along the way (I wish I could open them to check the condition of the bearings... too bad it can't be done without damage).I don't have any problems, usually I don't even check the content. When a disk arrives, I check how many hours it has worked on, how many errors it has reported, then I test it with badblocks, finally I test it with programs that I have written to also understand how compatible the firmware and how fast IOP responeses are with embedded devices I work on.When I sell a disk, in the same way I run badblocks to check that everything is ok, and in this operation the entire contents of are also deleted.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 11:09:43 am
content: Quote from: magic on September 26, 2023, 04:59:42 amWhere do you buy your disks?Quote from: magic on September 26, 2023, 04:59:42 amThis is damn true especially for SAS, SCSI and FC.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 11:12:15 am
content: A word of warning ….If you buy used hard disk drives. I recommend that you do not attempt to recover deleted material from them. If you find something highly illegal you are then faced with deciding whether to report it and also the potential contamination of your computers drive with the recovered material. It is better to carry out a high grade erasure of the hard disk and remain in ignorance as to what it used to contain. The same applies to used laptops. You can really open a can of worms by recovering deleted data. I speak as a data forensics practitioner. The SMART data provides all you need to know about the health of a drive. Unsanctioned data recovery is just snooping and it can lead to a world of trouble if you find something you wish you had not.Fraser

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 12:15:51 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 25, 2023, 01:22:48 pmGreat! Any Bitcoins on these disks?

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 12:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 26, 2023, 01:13:19 amWell from personal experience, the LAST brand of HDD I would ever buy would be Seagate. At least back in the day, 20+ years ago, they had the worst reliability track record of any brand.Some perspective: I've built a LOT of computers, servers, and NAS boxes over the past 30 years. An accurate count would be hard, but I would easily put it in the several dozen. I belonged to a circle of friends who also built a lot of computers, and we shared a lot of experiences. And those HDD experiences were exactly the same: avoid Seagate like the plague. I still have boxes of dozens of HDDs from over those years, not counting the ones I've disposed of. I've used virtually every major brand, including IBM (pre-Hitachi), Maxtor (pre-Seagate), Western Digital, Hitachi, Toshiba, and Samsung. Even among the several infamous IBM "Deathstar" 75GXP drives we had, they had a lower failure rate for us than Seagate -- I believe I had only one fail, and IBM replaced it with one which ran for a normal lifetime after.I recall at one time, after going many years avoiding Seagate, I figured surely they must have fixed their QA issues as they were still a top-selling brand and I would read positive reviews and articles about them. So I caved and bought a new Seagate... which promptly died within a year. Small sample size, sure, but it was a damning coincidence based on my and my group's collective prior history, and so I swore off them permanently after that.I could never wrap my head around the statistical probability of such a large maker with so many satisfied users, yet literally every single person I knew in person had terrible experiences with Seagates. I guess they just shipped all the questionable drives to my neck of the woods...EDIT: I forgot another evidentiary note about Seagate: BackBlaze (a cloud backup company I've subscribed to for years) builds their own open-source storage appliances from consumer HDDs. There was even a period during the HDD shortages years back they were buying external USB drives from Costco and other retailers in bulk and shucking them from their enclosures. These days they're mostly on SSDs but for years they've released an annual Drive Reliabity Study based on their thousands and thousands of drives purchased, across all brands. Back when I kept up with them, Seagate was always the ones with the highest failure rate. Their lowest failure rates were from Hitachi and Toshiba, which influenced my choice of brands. I've had dozens of both brands, many running 24/7 in NASes and servers, and have had an extremely low failure rate from them. I don't build as much these days and when I do I only use data center grade HDDs in my NAS now, all other drives are SSD, so I don't follow and keep up with current failure trends.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 01:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 26, 2023, 11:09:43 amLocal sites similar to eBay.Nowadays I prefer commercial sellers due to no questions asked returns.Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2023, 11:12:15 amIf you know how to erase disks then you can first take a peek and then decide if you have erased the disk and remained in ignoranceThough I guess there exists some risk of encountering malware, which may have a life of its own and try to escape erasure.Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2023, 11:12:15 amWhile data provide additional hints about past workload.Quote from: Fraser on September 26, 2023, 11:12:15 amMorally, yes, maybe.Legally, screw anyone who thinks you don't have a right to inspect hardware you have bought.

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 05:57:18 pm
content: When opening a return, I've used screen shots, or even just a picture of the item with a note on it. I've never had a picture questioned, or a return declined. Just recently, I returned a defective SSD using a screen shot of Windows setup saying the drive couldn't be formatted. I think the picture requirement is just there to reduce fraudulent returns rather the providing absolute proof. In your case, I would have provided a screen shot showing the hours, and the serial number for each drive, plus a picture of the drives with the serial numbers visible.Having said that, if the drives were cheap enough, and otherwise working properly, I probably would have just let it go, and just not used that seller again. 6000 hours isn't that much for a hard drive.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 06:42:11 pm
content: Quote from: andy2000 on September 26, 2023, 05:57:18 pmYes, if there are stupid rules that don't cost too much to follow, just follow them.I once uploaded (to AliExpress) a video of myself measuring output from a bunch of chips with a DMM.It doesn't matter, they will understand none of it anyway. They wanted a video, I gave them one. They ruled in my favor.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 07:16:49 pm
content: Anoldtopic here on EEVblog.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 09:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on September 26, 2023, 12:37:14 pmMore likely you and your friends are letting the drives run too hot.Hard drives don't like high temperatures so I always made sure to make openings in the front panel slots to allow airflow along the hard drives. Back in the old days, PC casings where quite bad where it comes to cooling.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 09:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 26, 2023, 09:44:19 pmWell, two things:1. We were installing multiple 120mm case fans before it was fashionable, back when cases came with 80mm fans if any at all. I have totes full of case fans like I have totes full of old HDDs. We weren't hacks, we knew what we were doing.2. Even if true, Seagate were obviously more prone to such overheating failures than virtually every other brand we used. Hence, our reliability (or lack thereof) experience is still valid.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:07:29 pm
content: Quote from: andy2000 on September 26, 2023, 05:57:18 pmThat's exactly what I did!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:40:12 pm
content: It is not only brands but types within brands.Western Digital has families of drives for different purposes. General use are cheaper but less reliable.WD Green Best for everyday light computing.WD Blue Capacity-focused storage for creators.WD Black High-performance drives specially-tuned for gaming.WD Red Reliable HDDs & SSDs to boost performance and capacity of NAS systems.WD Purple High-capacity smart video recording storage for 24/7 use.WD Gold Reliable, performance drives for enterprise applications.You gets what you pays for

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:44:43 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on September 26, 2023, 10:40:12 pmYes of course. Now keep in mind that many of these families share a common design and only differ by, often, just firmware changes.The Gold series are drives filled with helium (AFAIR and if I'm not mistaken), have specific firmware, and have been subjected to more stringent qualification tests, but other than this the base hardware is pretty close to the other ones.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:52:13 pm
content: So Hitachi is the best.Umm, which Hitachi model of 500Gb do you suggest?NAS application.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 11:15:40 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 26, 2023, 01:19:53 amI said I wouldn't buy used HDDs on eBay. Actually I wouldn't buy used HDDs period, unless I had absolutely zero other choice, but in that case, I'd try anywhere rather than eBay, just too many crap on there these days.This wasn't meant as advice.And, pardon my ignorance, but what are 'NOS' disks?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 11:18:48 pm
content: New Old StockPresumably most of the 500GB drives out there were produced a long time ago.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 11:29:20 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 26, 2023, 11:18:48 pmOh yeah, dang.Well, the HP store on Amazon has 500GB SAS drives:https://www.amazon.com/HP-Internal-Drive-2-5-Inch-Drives/dp/B007KWX55II would trust it a bit more than the average eBay seller, but I don't guarantee anything.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 11:30:16 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 26, 2023, 11:15:40 pmNOS = New Old Stock

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 12:00:24 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 26, 2023, 11:18:48 pm~2010QuoteI bought my first six Barracudas new in a physical store in 2010.My first self-built NAS!!!I was a university student at the time, almost graduated, spent all the scholarship to build a bloody complex thing made with three GNU/Linux embedded SBCs based on PPC in a matter that could very well become a story for Netflix, as it was so rich in twists, and it took almost 12 years to get it working properly! I redid everything, from the firmware, to various parts of the Linux kernel, to the entire rootfs, and today that thing is a war machine...... even if ... it grinds no more than 20Mbytes/sec, node to node, but still at the low level it encrypts every disk in the pool in hardware!Something that in 2010, no one, absolutely no one, thought they could do... today... both the Chinese and the Taiwanese will throw it into your head almost for free.Those Barracudas have seen a lot of Linux history in the last 12 years, from kernel 2.6 to kernel 5.5 (sorry, no time for kernel 6.*) including thousands of kernel crashes, kernel panics, or, even worse, filesystems that have evaporated leaving only a shapeless mass of meaningless data in their place, so many bugs and problems with the PPC4xx platform.Exactly what should never happen in a NAS, but it was never the fault of the disks. It was always the fault of the software, of uboot which didn't initialize the PCI well, and of the kernel which had big bugs under the hood.And they survived! All the Barracudas are still in good shape, and perfectly working. They have always been housed in a self-ventilated Sharkoon 3-Bay box, and have never worked above 22C ambient temperature, physically hosted in the cellar, "my computer room", with various bags of salts that absorb humidity.Hey, oh? So, respect for Barracudas

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 12:16:54 am
content: QuoteThis is my second purchase in the same physical shop, and these disks went into a commercial NAS RAID box that accepts SATA disks up to max 1TB and exports them to a SCSI interface.I no longer found the same box, but recently, a few months ago, by pure luck on eBay I saw and bought the previous version on the fly, which instead accepts disks up to a max of 512GBAnd that's why I got those 512GB Barracudas. I actually only needed 4, I took 8 to use the other 4 in a second project.Even these 1TB Barracudas never had a single defect in 5 years of service!If you say that the Hitachi are better, that's fine with me, I must have been just lucky with those disks, but then I need a precise reference, a model or something to look for

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 12:56:31 am
content: The failure rate curve of hard drives typically exhibits a bathtub shape. All other things being equal (no bad blocks, no SMART errors), drives that have been sitting on a shelf unused for 13 years are likely less reliable than those with several thousand hours of use. This is due to the risks associated with child mortality, in my opinion.I wouldn't buy used HDDs on eBay, but in this situation, there's no technical reason to keep drives with zero hours and return used ones.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 01:01:02 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 26, 2023, 10:52:13 pmBefore I switched to QNAP NAS appliances close to a decade ago (which I love BTW), I built and ran my own dedicated NAS boxes on a Linux mdraid platform using external eSATA enclosures driven by multiport PCIe eSATA cards. My last such NAS had 16 external eSATA bays filled with 500GB Hitachi drives. Crazy that's only 8TB compared to today's drive sizes -- my current 6-bay QNAP NAS is filled with 14TB WD Gold datacenter drives. The 8-bay QNAP it replaced was filled with 3TB Toshiba drives.Anyway, I just dug through my old HDD tote to see if I still had any of those 500GBs left. I did find one (there may be more, but most are 1TB or 3TB as I think I got rid of most of the 500GBs). These are the ones I used in my NAS. This was soon after IBM dumped all their HDD manufacturing to Hitachi and they still used the Deskstar branding.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 01:38:28 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 26, 2023, 10:52:13 pmNone.Paying around 40 Euros per terabyte for those rusty 500GB Seagates is quite expensive.Instead of using eight 500GB drives, you can opt for two 4TB WD Red Plus CMR drives, which would cost about 20 Euros per terabyte. These drives are brand new and come with a manufacturer's warranty.If you plan to run the drives 24/7 in your NAS, you should also consider power consumption. HGST drives are power-hungry, idling at 5W or higher, whereas the WD40EFPX idles at 3.1W.Eight HGST drives would consume 350 kWh per year, while two Red Plus drives would consume 54 kWh per year. I'm not sure about the efficiency of your NAS's PSU or your electricity costs, but saving 300-400 kWh or so per year would reduce your carbon footprint.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 10:53:08 am
content: Quote from: vad on September 27, 2023, 01:38:28 amThe NAS that I built in 2010 is a bit particular, it's made up of 3 nodes, each based on PPC40x, managing each a pair of disks in soft-RAID-1 (2xnode=2x3=6 disks), provided by a SiliconImage PCI chip. The nodes are controlled by a little SBC that is always online, consumes less than 5Watt, monitors the network traffic entering the NAS, if it notices a request for one of the three nodes that is offline (off), forces a softboot to the node, and in less than 12 seconds (bootstrap time) it satisfies the request. Similarly, if it sees no activity on a node within 40 minutes, it requests shutdown and turns off both the node and the hard disks connected to it.Periodically (during night) also forces the bootstrap of the mediatower, and also organizes backups according to different levels. From daily backups, on DDS tape, to weekly backups on CDRW, to monthly backups on DVDRAMCode:. _______| |network === ctrl0 | _______| | |A |--- sata.ch0----- hdd0| === lan0 & uart0 === | node0 |--- sata.ch1----- hdd1| | |_______|--- pata_ramdisk| | |B |--- sata.ch0----- hdd2| === lan1 & uart1 === | node1 |--- sata.ch1----- hdd3| | |_______|--- pata_ramdisk| | |C |--- sata.ch0----- hdd4| === lan2 & uart2 === | node2 |--- sata.ch1----- hdd5| | |_______|--- pata_ramdisk| | _______________| | |D || === lan3 =========== | media_tower || | | SCSI || | | + ramdisk || | | + media || | | + DVD-RAM || | | + CDRW650 || | | + DDS-4 || | |_______________||_______||| uart4___|__________| || power unit || || || 12V,5V ---- group.A { node0, hdd0, hdd1 }| 12V,5V ---- group.B { node1, hdd2, hdd3 }| 12V,5V ---- group.C { node2, hdd4, hdd5 }| 5V_TTL ---- group.D { media_tower } (ATX poweron)|______________|Code:. ___________| bay0 || ______|_| | hdd0 |------ node0.sata.ch0| |A_______|| | hdd1 |------ node0.sata.ch1| |A_______|| | hdd2 |------ node1.sata.ch0| |B_______||___________| bay1 || ______|_| | hdd3 |------ node1.sata.ch1| |B_______|| | hdd4 |------ node2.sata.ch0| |C_______|| | hdd5 |------ node2.sata.ch1| |C_______||___________|Through an internal 1000Mbps Ethernet line managed by a pair of Tulip chips (with dedicated network processors and queues, but limited to 20Mbyte/sec) the data flows from the disks of one of the three nodes to the SCSI ramdisk (8GB) of the mediatower, only then does the backup begin.That NAS basically manages source archives in C and assembly, as well as vhdl, latek and txt files, vector files and some pictures, all things that never exceed 10Mbytes per file. I have developed software to track updates, so ONLY what ( = a project) has changed is backed up.A 4GB DVDRAM fits perfectly into my monthly archives.Made with late 90s and early 2000s tecnology, it had a troubled and controversial start, but this system has been working perfectly for 5 years now.Why 3 sets of disks? Because things are compartmentalized into 3 big categories, which must NEVER be online at the same time, this is due to my paranoia.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 11:38:49 am
content: Wow, that's impressive. Good luck with your project!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 09:39:41 am
content: QuoteI made a second call to customer service, they replied something similar again.So if the category is not "new", but "opened never used", it is not a problem for them if the disk has service hours unless the disk is actually "DOA".The girl on the phone said exactly that, asking if one or more HDDs were "DOA?", "Dead On Arrival?"as a corollary I conclude thaton eBay, "opened never used" can be returned only if DOA, next time you have to say that in the motivation, item not as description because not workingIt's better to buy on Amazon, selective purchases, you need 8 disks? you make eight different orders, so you can selective return defecitve parts, otherwise you have to return everything; if something goes wrong Amazon doesn't make any question, you return the disc, and they'll refund you. PointIt is better to pay directly sellers with Paypal, without going through eBay, which in the end only adds more costs and hasslesthe best solution is to find a serious dealer, like the mentioned Pitbull-something for SCSI parts, and pay him/her with Paypal.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 10:05:06 am
content: except the last 5 years when I use the NAS regularly, the 13-5 years before that my HDDs were used periodically but not continuously over the time. Say, 4 days nonstop, then unused for a couple of months, then again 1 week continuously and unused for another couple of months, and so on.So, you know at least that they are not "dead on arrival".Quote from: vad on September 27, 2023, 12:56:31 amWhat would be the problem with an HDD that remains unused for 13 years?You know, you tested it for a couple of days after purchasing it, and it showed no problems.The mechanical parts? like the engine bearings?The electric parts? are the contacts between the driver and the motor and/or sensors oxidising?In road bicycle hubs the problem is the grease between cones and spheres which "cements" (it hardens). All you have to do is dismantle everything, degrease, put the grease back in, and the hub runs like new again.Unfortunately you cannot do the same with an HDD, because it must be opened in a dust-free environment

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 10:06:10 am
content: Found this article:Quote(fromhere)

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 12:43:51 pm
content: Yeah I referenced BackBlaze and their HDD reports earlier. I trust their data and conclusions, they've been doing this a long time and have been quite transparent about the details and what's worked and what hasn't. I would certainly *hope* that things have improved over time, so I'm encouraged that failures even among Seagate is better than it used to be. Fortunately I rarely deal in HDDs anymore, and when I do they tend to be datacenter class drives for the NAS. All of my desktops/workstations and laptops are 100% SSD. Even my current NAS has 2x 1TB NVMe SSDs for caching.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 04:39:43 pm
content: Based on the logic as presented, I'm avoiding Amazon and Western Digital.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 08:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on September 28, 2023, 04:39:43 pmI've never had an issue with either. Don't believe I've ever had a WD drive fail. I'm currently running 14TB Gold data center grade drives in my NAS, but I have run all classes of WD drives before (Green, Black, Blue, Red). Hitachi/HGST and Toshiba were my preference, but I'd also use WD. Then as I recall WD bought up one or both of those, so all my picks are now WD of some flavor.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 05:43:47 am
content: My 2010 disks are ST3500418ASSome bad disks areST3000DM001

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 06:21:28 am
content: In this specific case, 6 HDD are always needed for the NAS multi node project: with which modern HDDs can I replace the 6 discs from 2010?I don't want to deal with SSDsI'll definitely have problems like thisSATA2 would be better as the SiliconImage chip is SATA2, all modern stuff is >SATA2it would be better not to manage more than 500GB, because then the internal partitions (mac-part) are max 20GB, and if the disks are over 1TB, there are definitely too many ... anyway, tthis means, that I am right to take a modern disk but with the smaller capacity possible

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 06:42:29 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 29, 2023, 06:21:28 amAlright, but if > 1TB disks are easier to get ahold of, can't you just use only 500GB of them (even if that's wasteful) and leave the rest unpartitioned?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 09:55:32 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 29, 2023, 06:42:29 amI simply said that the criterion is to choose a modern disk with the smallest capacity possible.I also have a technical problem: the SiliconImage s/ATA chip internally uses 48-bit LBA, but on a 32-bit PPC40x whose hardware encryption engine works best when blocks are 32-bit LBA, so I'm using 48-bit LBA stripped down to 32-bit, which simplifies a lot of things, but gives problems on disks larger than 2.2 terabytes.Is it possible today to buy a modern 1..2Tbyte HDD and no bigger than that?It's a detail of both the firmware (u-boot/iBSP pre-initialization) and the software (linux/kernel drivers), I can fix it, but this will introduce up to 20% performance penalties on an already slow system, as nodes are clocked at 133Mhz.The alternative is to give up the hardware disk encryption, disable the circuits in the PPC SoC, bypass the block, and go back to using LBA-48bit.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 10:00:29 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on September 29, 2023, 09:55:32 amThat's understandable, but if such things are not available, you kinda have to do with what is.Quote from: DiTBho on September 29, 2023, 09:55:32 amAbsolutely. Seagate, WD and Toshiba have brand new 1TB SATA HDDs in their catalog. I looked and they are available in many stores.SAS drives are a lot harder to find. HP still sells new, 500GB and 1TB SAS drives, but they are rather expensive. Not sure about other sources.