How many of you use Apple products for active daily development ?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 08:16:02 am
content: I was wondering how many technical people use Apple products on a daily basis in active development (hardware or software).I personally think MACs are overpriced beasts specifically designed for the non-technical persons who don't care about the money they spend. I do believe they look really nice, they feel solid but the price ruins all that for me.What do you use for active development ?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 08:22:02 am
content: while there are a number of circuit analysis and even some very limited layout tools for the ipod touch (yes i refuse to buy a full smart phone) the size of the interface is generally impractically in almost every way, the ipad might hold some ground here but really if i had to go for a tablet i would be going windows or android simply as both have more tools with better capability available,

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 08:22:45 am
content: I use GNU/Linux boxes.I believe, video editing professionals tend to use Apple products.Alexander.

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 08:25:41 am
content: I use Kdenlive for video editing (on Linux) and i am VERY happy with it. It is on par with everything i have used before (Corel Video editor, Pinnacle, Videopad, Sony Video Editor etc) when we talk about features and usability.The best of all : It's Free

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 08:37:11 am
content: While I like kdenlive, and am glad to finally have a video editor that is more than merely usable, I still don't find it as powerful as Vegas was ten years ago. There are pro quality video editors for linux and most every studio uses linux, they also have huge proprietary toolsets that are not shared in the free software market.Don't use an Apple and never would. Until they get away from the corporate cult mentality I have no money for them.

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 09:39:51 am
content: glad I am not the only "weirdo" out there...

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 09:56:16 am
content: I used XCode to try to write an iPhone4 app, and every pretty near every day for 3 months I wanted to throw the laptop down the stairs to smash it.The project was terminated, mostly my fault, I don't think my attitude helped much.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 09:58:10 am
content: Quote from: dics on August 31, 2012, 09:39:51 amThe iJunk users are the weirdos. Paying 50-100% more for shiny throw-away stuff is weird :-) And being jailed in a Walled Garden and giving 30% of any purchase to Apple is even more weird :-)

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 10:03:55 am
content: You know what i find strange about Apple products ? They seem to be "wanted" by every fan since the moment they appear on the market ! It's like Apple is throwing some magic dust on them, like the marketing is using some kind of mass hypnosis to make the customers throw away the perfectly good 1 year old device and get the new one !I usually buy a new laptop every 4 years or so but i still have and use (sometimes) my good old IBM T42 (which has a parallel port).

author: LEECH666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 10:24:50 am
content: @dicsFuturama picked up that topic in one of their "more recent" episodes.http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_of_the_Killer_AppWorth a watch, imo.//Edit: I've been using my old cell (Nokia N73) for about 5 years now. I recently bought an Samsung Galaxy S3 but I'll still continue to use my N73 because of the much better battery run time. It needs a "facelift" thos. The housing has taken some abuse and should be renewed. People who get a new cell every year have way too much money at their hands, imo. But when I think about this again it comes to mind that Apple products are pretty stable in price. Resell value might be the cue.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 10:35:05 am
content: I don't use Apple. I have seen class mates at college buying Apple notebooks. When we had to do MATLAB, circuit simulation, PCB design, or anything electronics related they usually had to work on school computers (which are awfully slow) or in Windows (bootcamp?).One mate worked with me all the time, and we basically used my laptop for all things. I think he could run Eagle, but that's a basic CAD tool. I think there are some development tools out there for Arduino, Eclipse, but I am not sure about like fully equipped PIC, ARM , AVR design benches running in OSX.So I guess it can be done, but it's not always very practical.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 10:55:02 am
content: For leisure, I'm on Windows. However, I do use a Mac daily for software development. Both for IOs devices and for the desktop.I have a complex relationship with Macs. I think I'm coming to terms with the fact that I am suffering from a platform-induced Stockholm Syndrome. On one hand, Apple do things really well and I like it; but other hand, Apple is just plain weird and retarded about certain things. Clearly, Apple makes platforms for end-users, not for developers.Xcode is stupidly shit. I seriously think Apple should just copy Visual Studio for the most part and be done with it.

author: Daniyal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 11:04:56 am
content: I used mac for some design, but I had windows 7 running on it, so... but ipad is really handy for docmentations, for datasheets and all that. I think it's kinda restraning to use osx for EE designs.

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 11:20:05 am
content: Just watched that episode of FuturamaFunny and so true...

author: MetraCollector
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 11:39:40 am
content: Apple products have absolutely no value for me.I use Windows7 combining Linux, sometimes I reinstall Windows if necessary. Only tools for me.I haven't bought any computing hardware last 7 years, all I have is acquired from my dad's work for free as a scrap (functional).What is more, I hate smooth shapes, I prefer functional, nearly industrial design

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 11:46:19 am
content: Apple? Oh you mean the shiny POS that i see as an useless garbage from Day 1Yes they can do things but at 100% more expensiveWindows everyday man

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 12:02:05 pm
content: Really makes me wonder if Microsoft's Surface for $199 (with a keyboard!) will actually turn out to be a hit.Apple doesn't have a lot of full size laptops for $199...

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 12:16:18 pm
content: My main development machine is a Mac Pro I bought in 2008. At the time, I intended to install Linux on it. I had been pricing machines, and for the performance, the Mac Pro actually ended up to be the best value, even a bit cheaper than putting together the parts myself. Also, the Mac was MUCH better designed internally than other PC vendors. It was a no-brainer.I tried out OS X before wiping it, and decided just to keep it. For development I mostly use a GNU/Unix toolchain (based on Emacs), and for CAD, I use Windows-based tools under Parallels.I have set up a couple of other machines since for bench use, and those are straight Windows.

author: cookie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 12:35:03 pm
content: I use iphone ,itouch.....I prefer smooth shapes, so I consider buy mac this year.....but I don't think it will be good as windows 7

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 12:38:24 pm
content: I deny that Apple products are better designed.If they were why do they need so many security screws?Best value ... REALLY?Apple cannot touch Dell with their overpriced Mac Pro's1) Dell is already cheaper ALOT2) Spec'd nicely Dell Precision T5500 cost $3000 and that comes with two socketsXeon® X5647 6GB ECC DDRIII 1TB Class A Harddisks and NVIDIA Quadro 600Unlike the Mac which comes with the HD5770 which only costs 100 bucks. This is utter bullshit at it's finestLook at this: Made by samsunghttp://www.arcfn.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.htmlBut costs WAY more then just 30$, Onehunglow can do the same for a few dollarsOkay, i'll calculate a 3.2GHz Intel Xeon E3-1230 (The Mac probably uses an older and cheaper processor)Intel Xeon E3-1230 - $239.99Corsair XMS3 Tri Channel 6GB PC10666 DDRIII - $41.99WD 1TB 64MB Caviar Black - $109.99MSI R6770 - $109 (Even better than 5770)Samsung S222 24x DVD Drive - $25 (That's what Apple has a contract with)Gigabyte Z77X-UD3H - $265Antec HCP 850W 80+ Gold - $245Corsair Carbide Series 300R - $119$1152 - So why is it 3488$ HUH?!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 01:22:03 pm
content: Apple only used by Actors in movies (sometime VAIO) Windows (or Linux) dont need such publicity. who think Mac is very good at Video Editing, they've been scammed. Professional Video Editor will buy software double the price of IMac and run it in PC half the price of IMac. its all about colors and binaries, nothing got to do with what fruit.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 01:25:32 pm
content: Apple has some great machines. For example Mac book Pro 13". There is no competition for it.Alexander.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 02:15:05 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 31, 2012, 01:25:32 pmThanks for providing the obligatory fanboy comment.Now let us return to our regular schedule.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 02:18:17 pm
content: At $2199?FANBOYYYYYYYYYYI can easily get a gaming laptop with a i7-3610QM and do it with a 15" 1920x1200 at $1500And how are you going to replace the battery when it goes? (Apple makes it's batteries at one hung low factories!)NVIDIA GeForce GT 650MRight, GT650M? the 1500 laptop above has one GTX670MAnyway why do you need 2880x1800 when you do not have enough graphical horsepower to game?http://www.xoticpc.com/asus-g75vwrs72-p-4475.html

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 02:52:33 pm
content: I must add that irrational hatred of Apple is just as silly as irrational fanboyism. And that goes for anything else, really. It's all about the right tool for the right job, etc.From a design perspective and aesthetics, I think Apple has nailed it. For some people, this aspect is not important, but on the whole, I do think that usability and finishing touches matter a lot (and it seems people don't mind paying extra for that kind of thing). Some of you may scoff at the latter, but it's not you that laughs all the way to the bank, it is Apple. Good engineering will take you only so far, only a few will buy your product if its crap to use. I seen many good portable computers and smart phones that are cheapened by their mechanical construction, lack of industrial design on the chassis and peripherals.Another aspect I like, there seems to be a great level of consistency in Apple's software, their user interface looks polished, and you can tell that the usability aspect has been tested thoroughly. Windows still lacks that kind of polish and consistent design. I'm still seeing legacy UI crap that should have died with Windows 98. Not to mention third party craplets that get installed with Windows. You have no choice, because device vendors are notorious for making horrible, unstable user interfaces for their hardware drivers. Oh and Internet Explorer should just die. All versions. Apple has managed to pull-off some ballsy software (and hardware) architecture changes quite well and they are not afraid to deprecate old cruft. I think this is great, IMO.Some of the things about Apple that shits me is they seem to polish their products too well, right to the point where they frustratingly dumb things down where it is not warranted. (Xcode grrrrrrr....) And they deliberately use different technical nomenclature compared to the rest of the industry... just for the sake of being different. WHY? Another pet hate is their insatiable need to control everything, including customisation, how you use devices, software, hardware, etc. If you want to compile and run your own code on a device that you legally own, you need a god damn subscription license. Did I mention their development toolchain is shit? My mind boggles how sloppy their efforts are with development software on their platform. It feels like I'm using beta software in that respect.Apple does all this because they know they can get away with it. And people just put up with it.With that said, if someone would not have donated me all this Apple gear for me to work on, I don't think I'd buy Apple hardware, ever.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 03:03:08 pm
content: Remember, the people who buy Apple don't put up with the laptops they put up with the money they paid to "SHOW OFF"It's just like audiophoolery.

author: Flávio V
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 03:31:12 pm
content: I know a close relative than has one so i might make a balanced review of their portable computers...(based on a 15 inch imac pro(2.7ghz quad core i7)The apple software and trackpads are pretty good at arts because it removes the need to click on the keyboard, the colours of the screen was a better quality than a normal one.The battery does't has a 5 hour endurance(not even on idle) the real one is 5:30 hours on idle/light work(browsing,etc) and near 2:30 hours for a heavy art program(abobe ...)Macs don't cool down!They do have a fan, but, the air comes out from between the monitor and the lower structure, making the cooling crap and idiotic...and also requiring a quite powerful external cooler....When there is no external cooler being used the portable pc might reach 45-55ºC(external) and the crap apple power supply can also be used to heat food...(only if under a high load(power hungry program(above ...)The imac is only good for arts and showoff and nothing else...

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 03:47:15 pm
content: Why not add a poll to this thread? It should be interesting to see numbers grouped together.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 03:51:28 pm
content: QuoteIt seems to work out that way, once you pick some high-end features.My first major Mac purchase turned out to be motivated by the 23inch cinema display. I really wanted a big display at home (I had a 21inch glass monitor at work), and I couldn't find a PC system with that sized monitor at a similar price...My most recent Mac was purchased in 2008: 8-core Xeon 2.8Gz, 10GB Ram, a TB of disk. $3000. Again, I couldn't find a comparable PC system that cost significantly less. I couldn't find a lot of 8-core systems, period. A similarly configured dell (ok, upgraded cpu family and graphics) is still about that price.)(Of course, "best value" and "high end features" tend to be mutually exclusive. In that 2008 timeframe, a "best value" PC system was probably 2 cores and 4GB of memory...)A lot of the actual development I was doing at the time was on back-end unix farms via X windows, so whether I had Mac or Win on my desktop was largely irrelevant. I still do a lot of development at the unix command line, and one of the things I like about Macs is that it HAS a unix command line...And yes, Apple is frequently annoying. Probably about as frequently as Microsoft... I'm about due for a new computer (2008...), and the current crop of Mac Pros isn't looking all that attractive.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 04:01:50 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on August 31, 2012, 03:51:28 pmThis is why you can buy monitors separately!QuoteBuild your own. Buying pre-built systems is always stupidly expensive.Case in point: Current Mac Pro systems. To upgrade from 6GB to 12GB RAM costs an additional £180 over the price for 6GB, actual price of 12GB of RAM? £108. 32GB costs £780 extra. Actual price of 32GB of RAM? ~£400. Dell use similar markups.QuoteClearly not.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 04:23:46 pm
content: My daily laptop is a Macbook pro 13", although I do use a Windows VM on it for development.The overpriced argument is getting a bit old. Yes, there are cheaper laptops. So? My previous Dell laptop was roughly €400 more than my Macbook. A direct competitor like the Sony Vaio Z is priced similarly. Why do people care so much about the price anyway? It's not like you'd have to mortgage your house to cover the costs. And no, I didn't sleep at the macstore just to get it as soon as possible, just like the vast majority of buyers didn't.My neighbor recently bought a new BMW, but for some reason you don't hear anybody say it's overpriced or anything. His option wheels alone would have gotten you almost 2 new Macbooks, just to put things in perspective.I think it's just stupid when people moan about the price of stuff they don't even buy anyway, just as hating a company or product because it has some retarded fanboys.Just buy whatever you want to buy. I find it a waste of money to spend €600 on a smartphone just to play Angy Birds, but you won't hear me complaining anywhere. I just don't spend my money on it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 04:31:56 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 31, 2012, 04:23:46 pmThey can charge what they like for the basic machine. When they start charging twice the retail price for upgrades, they can proceed to strategically place their lips upon my posterior and kiss it repeatedly. To steal a line from a film.

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 04:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 31, 2012, 04:23:46 pmThe waste of money isn't necessarily the $600 spent on the smartphone. I bought a Google Nexus One almost 4 years ago that was a bit over $500 unlocked. I still use the same phone, although have never played this Angry Birds game. I use it for hiking (gps works offline with Oruxmaps), internet access, and *gasp* a phone to make calls.The waste of money is the people who spend $600 on the latest smartphone (usually an Iphone) and then 6 months later wait in a line in the rain to spend another $600 on the next latest smartphone (usually an Iphone).

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 04:47:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 31, 2012, 04:31:56 pmJust like Dell, HP and many others do? If you want a Dell Precision workstation with a 3.6GHz Xeon instead of 3.0 you'll have to pay $900. The CPU retails for $600. Just to name one example.But that's not really the point. I don't understand why anybody would randomly start ranting about it. Just go to a different supplier.Quote from: KTP on August 31, 2012, 04:35:25 pmIt's not your money, so why would "you" (read: the people who randomly start ranting) get upset about it?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 04:52:04 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 31, 2012, 04:47:43 pmI don't buy Dell or HP, either.QuoteBecause other people randomly start raving about how awesome their iStupid is.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 04:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on August 31, 2012, 02:15:05 pmFYI I don't own any Apple product.And... Another pointless post of yours. Now let us return to our regular schedule.Alexander.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 04:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on August 31, 2012, 03:51:28 pmfor me, not for cinema mainly though, just for photoshoping and video, i have two 23" monitors now one samsung one acer (run on PC ofcourse), i'll wait another day for another buy, my samsung is showing to sign off (few black lines on top, now used by my kids) i think it was 2008 purchase iirc. i have smaller monitors one LG one chimei, LG is dead chimei still running strong, a wonder for 1hunglow product (with built in speaker somemore). anyway just another monitors storyQuote from: westfw on August 31, 2012, 03:51:28 pmyou must be rocket scientists. with my quad core, i think i'll used up all cores in one time in about 1-5% of my daily life. just another muti-cored processors storyQuote from: westfw on August 31, 2012, 03:51:28 pmwallawe! should i tell another my RAM story? long story short, i only have 3GB (i'm a normal joe people)yea, if you're rocket scientist working for NASA or CERN, no MAC or PC can give you below $3000 tag.

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 05:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 31, 2012, 04:47:43 pmWell, sometimes it *is* my money. I know it doesn't happen often (or at least I hope it doesn't), but I was at the store the other day waiting in line, and the lady in front of me had two kids, each with an Iphone (I couldn't see if it was a 3, 4, or 4s...I don't even know the difference). She proceeded to pay using welfare stamps.Now I am not saying these same people will be the ones swapping out for a Iphone5 this fall, but there are others who are in debt and really should not be swapping out their 1 year old phone for a new one.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 05:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on August 31, 2012, 03:51:28 pmThat's odd. since when was did intel have 8 cores in 2008? 2010 okay. But 2008? No way that's happening. Dual CPU?I assume you didn't even surf the net for a better price elsewhere,I would say the CPU was a E5462 right? IT seems it was going for 797$ each and a ASUS Z7S-WS for 606$ (these are 2007-2008 prices),A WD Caviar Black 1TB in 2008 went for 200$ But it's safe to say Apple went for other brands which is much cheaper,DDRII right? Let's see. Back in 2008 10GB's of DDRII-800 would be 5x2GB's most likely and that costs 20$x5 = 100$Then what do we have next..?Oh yes, the HD5770 that costs 100$ back then, a 600W GOOD PSU cost like 100$ back thenAnd let's throw in a tower case, 100 bucks.$2700!So who's right now? And the processor was introductry prices not dealer prices! Dealer prices is always lower by 10-20%

author: PedroDiogo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 05:27:14 pm
content: I always find these threads amusing, really.An Apple computer is as overpriced as a new name-brand scope. Sure you can buy a Chinese Scope for half the money, but sooner or later your rotary encoders will begin to fail.In a forum where all of us are well aware that you pay premium for quality in electronics, why is everyone so offended when someone buys a Mac? And this is true for any other computer as well.Sometimes people forget that a computer is not made only of the CPU, the GBs of memory and the HDD size. I also pay for the display, the case, etc..., but for me most importantly, I pay for not having to waste time formatting my computer every now and then or having to solve a kernel panic every time I update my computer.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 05:43:34 pm
content: The thing is, quality is non-existant on Apple products.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 05:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDiogo on August 31, 2012, 05:27:14 pmMacs are not high quality computers. They are not flawless, they do not have 100% reliable hardware, and OS X is not the OS of the gods.You pay to fill Apple's pockets.

author: PedroDiogo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 05:57:25 pm
content: Quote from: T4P on August 31, 2012, 05:43:34 pmSure and you know this how? Please provide us decent sourced links saying that no Apple product has quality.Quote from: Monkeh on August 31, 2012, 05:49:51 pmWhere in my post am I saying that their computers are 100% reliable? Every computer fails, the question is how soon/easily.And no, OSX has many flaws I am the first to admit it, but once you are using it you don't have to bother with many things that Linux and Windows users have to.Same goes for when you buy a Dell computer. Whose pockets are you filling? Do you really think that they are in this business to loose money?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 06:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDiogo on August 31, 2012, 05:57:25 pmI'm sure. You don't have to bother with the keyboard layout you should have, or the keys which have been present on keyboards for 30 years or more, either. Nor do you have to bother with your data if you have a guest account on the machine!QuoteWhen did I ever say buying a Dell was better? And no, I think they're in the business for one, sole purpose: MAKING money off of those stupid enough to pay them whatever they ask.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 06:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDiogo on August 31, 2012, 05:57:25 pmno need to have any links. Tell me why the iPhone's glass shatters on tiny impact!The same abuse doesn't even leave a scratch on my HTC SensationQuote from: PedroDiogo on August 31, 2012, 05:57:25 pmWe don't buy dell desktops. Nor HPSo your point is?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 06:07:20 pm
content: I'm not an EE so my input doesn't really count regarding the question, but as a "visual" designer, Macs are the holy standard for print/web designers and aesthetics are very important to creative people and Macs always deliver; You don't need to waste time researching into a computer setup and a nice screen that might work - you just walk into the Apple shop and get one that works. Mac UI is very intuitive, so you spend more time being creative than learning UI.I used to use Macs in the 90's but when Adobe etc started producing design software for the PC, I started using PC's instead. Also PCs got a lot better over the years. The only Apple item I have is the iPad, and I use it with my hobby electronics because I can look-up datasheets and books and web info etc very easily when I'm in my lab or sat on the sofa.From an EE point of view, probably most open-source apps are ported to Macs, but in the EE industry, i'd be surprised if any of the leading EE packages are available to the Mac at all?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 06:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: T4P on August 31, 2012, 05:24:28 pmyou forgot the slick and cute look of the product, that can cost millions (custom casing)and the "you dont have to think anything" feature/ideology/patent, thats timeless!Quote from: PedroDiogo on August 31, 2012, 05:57:25 pmWindows? what many things to bother? i dont even bother to use Win7 even though i have it running for my kids. i'm satisfied with my WinXP, quad core 3GB ram TB HBB internal and unpluggable external etc etc bought few years back around $500-700 (gradually upgraded in pheripherals pr salvaged from my previous pentium4 PC). should i recommend it as my "quality product"? i bet anykind of MAC (or even PC) dont have spectrometer bundled in (which cost more than my PC)still less than $3000 tag altogether

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 07:31:24 pm
content: Guys, please don't fight, I don't want this to happen on eevblog forum also !I added a poll to this thread as requested by one of the readers (good idea btw !).I started this thread to understand if i am blinded by hate against Apple's marketing campaigns or I am actually right about their products being overpriced and only good for light daily use (like web browsing, email reading, pdf reading and such).

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 08:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: dics on August 31, 2012, 07:31:24 pmThat could be. Apple is obnoxious. Also, they are generally against everything open-source is for. The App store is an insult. You can't buy a copy of the latest OS version in a form suitable for a bare hardware install. I could understand boycotting Apple on those grounds.I could have mentioned that the apple acolytes are annoying, but to tell the truth, the shrill and often unreasoned anti-apple protesters are much more annoying.But, OS X is acceptable underneath the UI, the file system is unix-like, other than the bizarre resource forks and driblets of crud that get left around the tree. and you can always install Linux or BSD (or even Windows if you don't like Unix).QuoteYou would be wrong. You would be describing Atom and ARM based machines. Anything running a recent AMD or Intel chip not targeted for tablets/net-books/phones pretty solid nowadays.Anyway, last time I checked, the high-end Mac Pro line was competitive with other high-end options, and better put together. I also have a Macbook pro which I bought refurbished for about the same price as a competitive new Dell, and it has taken much more beating than any other laptop I've owned--I have had a few laptops literally start to fall apart. The Macbook just accumulates the dents and computes on, and continues to be a pleasure to use.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 10:17:25 pm
content: They market their stuff really well. Just look at the webpage. Look at the words they use. Every word on there you can just imagine coming out of Steve Job's rear...I mean mouth. I don't agree that Steve was the most ingenious person in the world but he could sure figure out how to brainwash...oh I mean sell a product.All jokes aside. Apple is good stuff quality wise. It's still consumer-grade but generally speaking reliability is very good. I do like the fact that most of their stuff is metal/aluminum. I have a 4th generation iPod. Got it around 4-5 years ago. It's held up very well. That's not to say an all-plastic mp3 player couldn't..However, the price premium is what kills it. Even with all the cool stuff that a brand new MacBook might provide, no way in hell I'm dishing out $1500USD for a computer that is really no more functional than a $600 Windows laptop. Sure, it's all very nice, yes! But is that really going to help me type an essay faster, create a better CAD drawing, or send an email? It's just not worth it.

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 10:39:20 pm
content: Funny poll graphic shapeI guess i should have anticipated this

author: wade
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 10:41:37 pm
content: I've been designing and developing enterprise software for 16+ years on PC, both Windows, Linux and Unix/BSD. I haven't done any mobile development and that would be the only motivation for me to have anything to do development-wide with Apple (to have an IOS distribution of an app alongside Android and maybe Windows Phone). I do own a few Apple iPods though and thay are great, no complaints. But Apple doesn't seem to want to make it easy for developers to use their platform by charging for the SDK. I don't like that. Microsoft has been giving away their SDKs for many years and there's a good reason - to get developers to write apps on their platform.Don't take this the wrong way as no disrespect is intended but hardcore Apple folks seems to be stuck-up and egotistical in general (from my experience). I'm not sure why this is. Don't get me wrong, every software developer out there on every platform has their own eqo issues, some more than others (this also may extend into other types of engineers too). But it seems to me that Apple folks tend to think their high above the rest of the world. I don't like that. If I offended you, I'm sorry in advance. (Flame on, I guess.)I'm used to the PC, love Windows 7 and know and love the many, many design tools I use every day. I have no reason to change platforms. I think that's where most people are: they learned a technology platform, used it extensively, became experts at it and have no reason to change. That's cool. Just don't knock other peoples' technology decisions because it's different from yours.-Wade

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 10:49:12 pm
content: And no, OSX has many flaws I am the first to admit it, but once you are using it you don't have to bother with many things that Linux and Windows users have to.Like what? I use linux. It works. Day after day. On the rare occasion I want new hardware, I plug it in, configure it and it works.... day after day. What exactly do I have to worry about that you don't? That I won't have to lug my crap to the istore in the event it fails? That I can choose pretty much whatever hardware I like in my next upgrade? Which of the thousands of free and open source applications to choose when I need to add a tool to my arsenal?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 11:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 31, 2012, 04:52:15 pmSo you are not even qualified to tell us "there is no competition"., and we should not expect that you will back up your claim with any facts. All you do is some wanking.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2012, 11:13:48 pm
content: @poptonesI would use exclusively Linux but there are just some programs that I can't give up, no matter how much I really want to.For example, Microsoft Office...Yes there's many open source suites out there, but Office does it right in my opinion. My dad got Office 2010 Professional (all the Office programs) for $10 from work. Open Office is usable but I just find Office, especially Powerpoint to work much better. Then there are those obscure-ass programs from like the 12th century that some of us are obliged to use and of course they were not developed for Linux. And then of course we have things like Photoshop, Solidworks, or Autodesk. Sure we coul run a VM but why, honestly...for the $100 that Windows cost, you get the ability to just about every program on the face of the earth minus some of the Apple stuff.Microsoft did a good job with Windows 7. I think it's a worthwhile product. We shouldn't bash it.Linux as an operating system is solid as a rock. I've installed it especially on some aging computers and it's worked wonders. It's also very easy to use and has a surprising amount of support. However, I'm not sure if Linux is exactly your best friend for professional development. Not the worst, not the best.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 12:02:38 am
content: QuoteDual CPUs; 4 cores each. This was actually a third party deal, so it was something like a 2G/320G standard system with add-on 8G ram and 750G drive. My prior system was a G4, so I was pretty strongly "looking" for a new system, and aware of pricing. Though I've pretty much eliminated "build-my-own" from consideration due to the difficulties of coming up with an adequately quiet cooling system.QuoteYou left out operating system, mouse, and keyboard.Though frankly, "I can save 10% by putting together my own system from parts gathered from N different sources" is not a particularly exciting proposition to me. I might as well spend my time finding a vendor that cheats on sales tax. 10% is not "horrendously more expensive"...

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 12:28:54 am
content: And then of course we have things like Photoshop, Solidworks, or Autodesk. Sure we coul run a VM but why, honestly...for the $100 that Windows cost...But Windows doesn't cost $100. Even when it's free, it still costs money - Office, Photoshop, WinZip or whatever. Ironically, Microsoft's position in the market ispreventingthem from sucking less - they're not allowed to bundle antivirus software, not allowed to bundle basic office apps, not allowed to bundle... what else? They seem to have bundled a zip engine now, but that's utterly useless for rar packages. So every time you turn around it's download some crap software from someone who may or may not be accountable for the unknown problems contained therein, then hope you don't have to go find a bunch of other crap to install because of some weirdass dependency. I have a VM of Windows, that's the only way I'll run it. Why? Because that way it's not connected to the net unless I specifically allow it, and if it does get borked all I have to do is copy over the backup of that image and restart it.Not that this has much to do with Apple... except maybe the "costing money every time I need new functionality" part.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 12:59:05 am
content: I dunno. I really kind of pulled myself out of the whole PC thing a while ago. I tend to just go by the "whatever works" strategy now. As long as it's reasonably quick and does what I want, I don't really care whether it's got an apple or a pear or a penguin or a lion. Just some thoughts. Windows works for me and, fyi, I don't personally own PS, SW, AD or any of those expensive programs, but as far as pro designers whether that be artistic or engineering may find themselves at a disadvantage when they don't have the capability to run those first tier programs. I have windows honestly because I like Office. That's one thing I honestly do like. But really if I had to use Open Office or LibreOffice, I would survive so really it just comes down to using what you have.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 01:23:55 am
content: Quote from: westfw on September 01, 2012, 12:02:38 amIt's really not that hard. Apple machines are very, very far from the quietest I've ever seen. Or built.QuoteThey're all outrageously expensive.QuoteIgnoring the OS, who the hell wants to use an Apple keyboard and mouse? They're terrible. They even tried (not sure if they still do it) to lock you into only being able to use their own keyboard with the supplied extension cable (because they assume you want to display their pretty, pretty machine on your desk and plug the keyboard in the FRONT of it, for some reason).Quote10%? I can build a system to meet the specs of a Mac Pro and save far more than 10% just on the RAM, let alone their markups on CPUs, HDDs, and GPUs.E: The RAM is 50% cheaper elsewhere. CPUs are 20% cheaper. HDDs vary depending on exactly what you want to buy, up to 60-70% cheaper. SSDs can be had for 60% less. You can actually buy modern GPUs if you don't buy a Mac! You're not forced to pay for a keyboard and mouse you may not want. Sorry, but it adds up to a lot more than 10%. And you getchoices, which are an odd concept to Mac users.I'll also get better warranty, higher quality components, and the satisfaction of not paying Apple (or anyone else) a stupid amount of money for them to go pay some poor Chinese bastard a tiny, tiny fraction of it to do the work for me.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 01:50:29 am
content: What I really don't like about Apple is that they're unfriendly to third party developers. I'll stick to Android.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 01:56:06 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 01, 2012, 01:50:29 amThey're unfriendly to everyone not putting money in their pocket in significant quantities.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 02:05:07 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 01, 2012, 01:23:55 amI built my own computer a few years ago. Though it's by no means hard, it is pretty rewarding, and you can personalize it to your needs. I equipped my computer with low-rpm fluid bearing fans and the thing is dead silent. Sure it was like $30 for two fans but I'm sure they'll last the lifetime of the computer if not more and the thing is really quiet. I changed out the crap cooler on my gpu for a fanless cooler..etc. You don't have to spend a fortune either. I think I spent about $600. It's more than adequate. I recently purchased an SSD. Best choice I ever made. Never going back. Try buying an SSD from Apple...I dare you...Your wallet sure won't appreciate it.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 02:06:02 am
content: Here's something to contemplate...People often talk up the "design" of Apple products. Many who don't even own Apple stuff see to think Apple holds some sort of secret sauce in their arsenal when it comes to design.When the G4s were fairly new, I was part of a startup in LA. Because creative content was a large part of our focus, we needed to have tools on hand that employees were familiar with. So we had quite a lot of Apple stuff, and we had this post production facility that was heavily dependent upon Apple hardware and, I believe, Avid video processing tools. The process was fairly straightforward: capture video from the Canon DV camera to a raid, edit it, and publish it. And I cannot count the number of times that crap broke down. It seems like it was an every day thing.One time I went downstairs and our "Mac guy" (oh yeah, if you are going to have Mac hardware you need to have a "Mac guy" because it's almost impossible to find a "Mac guy" who also knows dingle damn about linux, Windows, or hardware not bought from Apple - and vice versa) and he had this G4 system torn to pieces. I mean every card, the case bits, everything down to removing the motherboard from the motherboard plate! I asked what was wrong with it, he said "Oh nothing,' I'm just adding a new hard drive!" Apparently the cables have to be routed UNDER the motherboard in order to reach, and Apple didn't put the $2 cable in there from the factory so in order to go beyond that first hard drive you had to tear the system to pieces just to run the cable. Took him more than half a day to add a new HD to a Power Mac.A decade previous, when I was working for a "computer store" (remember those?) I could completely tear down a system to its component parts and put it back together with nothing more than a penny. Absolutely everything was snap in place or, where it was screwed together, it used either a thumbscrew or a countersunk screw that was specifically designed to accommodate a penny or quarter. These were made by... IBM. They were truly brilliant in their design.I can't tell you how much money I made ten years ago buying broken thinkpads, swapping the parts around to make a working laptop, and reselling them. I'm not sure how the new Lenovo stuff stacks up, but my experience with Thinkpads is they're made like tanks and they're very flexible in the amount of interchangeability made possible by their design.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 02:10:52 am
content: Quote from: poptones on September 01, 2012, 02:06:02 amTry getting the screw you dropped out of the PSU on a G5. You have to remove everything, including the processor modules. Stupid design, and those things were not quiet. Mildly quiet when unloaded in a cool room. Noisy as all hell if actually doing things. And the sheer number of fans guarantees you a clicky, buzzing one sooner rather than later (nine, as I recall, on the model I've got, not including GPU).Real pretty from the outside, though. If you like unfiltered dust traps.

author: Short Circuit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 02:36:20 am
content: No, because 99% of EE related software is build for Windows only.as for comment on the poll intention;- 90% of Apple fanboys are crazy.- 99% of Apple anti-fanboys/haters are morons.oh, and 95% of Linux-on-desktop users are masochistic-- yes, I've been drinkingBut remember; if you want a thruthful answer, then ask kids or drunk peoplewhat the fuck is happening, there are new meesages replaying on parts of the message I did not port yet... !!!!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 02:38:40 am
content: Quote from: Short Circuit on September 01, 2012, 02:36:20 amAh, but is it masochism if it's not actually painful?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 02:39:39 am
content: Quote from: dfnr2 on August 31, 2012, 08:22:12 pmTry buying a new one and see whether it will hold upIn any case if anyone wants to get a durable laptop GET A TOUGHBOOK THENQuote from: poptones on September 01, 2012, 02:06:02 amAh yes, my dad's a fan of thinkpads but not anymore.Tough and heavy they are but the previous T61 he had from work had it's fan failed (for 2 years!) and after replacing the fan BAAAMM it wouldn't show anything on the screen now. Under full load it still won't get past slightly warm on the surface though, that's tough.Then he got refurb'd T61 from the store the other day "I saw that Intel GMA logo and i got VERY skeptical ..."Quote from: poptones on August 31, 2012, 10:49:12 pmIndeed. I can like go to a store and grab the best processor, the fastest SSD plus even a HD7970 and change them out when i get home, no need to lug my crap to some "istore" and pay mind-boggling money to feed somebody mouth and have them swap the parts out

author: Short Circuit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 02:56:18 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 01, 2012, 02:38:40 amBreaking keyboards and mice out of frustration can be painful, really!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 03:04:45 am
content: Quote from: Short Circuit on September 01, 2012, 02:56:18 amI thought you were Dutch, not an angry German CS player?

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 06:04:24 am
content: Breaking keyboards and mice out of frustration can be painful, really!If you break the keyboard, then it wasn't much of a keyboard to start.Notbreaking the keyboard... that can be painful.My PC is a home security system as well; if someone breaks into my house, I can beat them to death with my 5150.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 06:38:29 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on August 31, 2012, 11:09:42 pmDid you asked for any facts? You just assumed that someone with a different opinion than yours is a fanboy.Unfortunately even AlienWare laptops at the same target group with much better performance and parts cant compete the quality of the macbook (for example a 2k alienware of a friend of mine started pilling off color on the palm rest after couple of months). Is macbook overpriced? Yes in my opinion, but I am not comparing prices. Everything is put together to form a laptop that no other company have done. This is the only Apple's product that I would like to own (if the price was lower).Alexander.

author: nelson
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 08:47:17 am
content: I think MAC is limited by lacking of simulation software.Using Dell Alienware now, it combines visual impact and strong computing power

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 08:50:25 am
content: Apples are made in China, and often use the same crap parts as the rest. Foxconn motherboards are crap. At least Thinkpads are made in Japan. They're also all over the space station...

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 09:04:55 am
content: Thinkpads from the past few years have not been made in Japan, and yet they're still known for quality.It might depend on various things, like what OEM they choose (which can differ between models).As for Macs, don't like their hardware at all as they seem to be designed to be actively hostile towards servicing. OS X is half-half, the GUI is idiot-friendly (maybe too much) but it's also Unix-based.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 09:31:32 am
content: Ah, another Apple thread. Another thread filled with the same old comments from the same old commenters, circle-jerking over their mythical straw-man Apple fanboy. All no doubt wearing the same expression of smug self-righteousness that they say so annoys them in their imaginary enemy.The last thread on the subject was the first time I can remember where I've had to seek out the ignore function in a forum. Mostly I just mentally filter out the stupidity, but that thread proved (where even the religion thread could not) that some people's opinion was *never* going to be of any practical worth.You may ask questions, but you don't care for the answers. You just want people to stick their heads up above the parapet so you can have something real to hurl abuse at for a change.What I don't get, is why it bothers you all so much that other people use a different computer to you. Why do you care? Are you all 12 years old? I vaguely remember having heated debates at that age over whose computer was better (it was obviously the C64, Spectrum users smelt of milk).In a probably futile answer to the original question, I use Apple products daily. I like them. I will continue to happily give Apple my hard earned cash so long as they continue to make products that I like, and certainly won't be taking advice on how to spend my own money from fuckwitted kids on the internet. I also use non-Apple products daily, and indeed also use both at the same time, as one of my Macs (yes! I have several!) runs Windows.I haven't bothered answering the poll. It serves no useful purpose.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 10:06:46 am
content: Quote from: _Sin on September 01, 2012, 09:31:32 am+1.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 10:07:42 am
content: Quote from: poptones on September 01, 2012, 08:50:25 amMexico, Japan or China, Japan?

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 11:24:56 am
content: QuoteI think that is my trouble with OS X. I find it really annoying.Quote+ 1 for hypocrisy, It sounds like you're your no longer 12 years old but the other things haven't changedQuotewhat's the purpose of this comment? Not much unless you're trying to say the poll is invalid because at least one Mac user didn't answer it.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 11:50:31 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on September 01, 2012, 11:24:56 amIt's well established that there are a lot less Apple users than users of Windows PCs. And this whole thread, as happens every time, is overtly hostile towards Apple users. I'm certainly not inclined to engage in a conversation with a mob who have already made up their minds and are busy sharpening pitchforks and lighting up torches.So the result will simply reflect that Apple users are a minority, and quite possibly will exaggerate the ratio by which that is the case. It's just a negative feedback loop.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 11:56:15 am
content: This is another thing that annoys me about Apple, and really the main thing, is the patents, the control freaks, the lawyers, the copyright thing.I know other companies are trying to squeeze us too but Apple is the most successful.Here is some Apple ios sample code, the main entry point to hello world.Seems to me that the Lawyers are writing more code than the software guys.Anyway the good news is that it's considered stable at version 1.8Code:/*File: main.mAbstract:Version: 1.8Disclaimer: IMPORTANT: This Apple software is supplied to you by AppleInc. ("Apple") in consideration of your agreement to the followingterms, and your use, installation, modification or redistribution ofthis Apple software constitutes acceptance of these terms. If you donot agree with these terms, please do not use, install, modify orredistribute this Apple software.In consideration of your agreement to abide by the following terms, andsubject to these terms, Apple grants you a personal, non-exclusivelicense, under Apple's copyrights in this original Apple software (the"Apple Software"), to use, reproduce, modify and redistribute the AppleSoftware, with or without modifications, in source and/or binary forms;provided that if you redistribute the Apple Software in its entirety andwithout modifications, you must retain this notice and the followingtext and disclaimers in all such redistributions of the Apple Software.Neither the name, trademarks, service marks or logos of Apple Inc. maybe used to endorse or promote products derived from the Apple Softwarewithout specific prior written permission from Apple. Except asexpressly stated in this notice, no other rights or licenses, express orimplied, are granted by Apple herein, including but not limited to anypatent rights that may be infringed by your derivative works or by otherworks in which the Apple Software may be incorporated.The Apple Software is provided by Apple on an "AS IS" basis. APPLEMAKES NO WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATIONTHE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF NON-INFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESSFOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, REGARDING THE APPLE SOFTWARE OR ITS USE ANDOPERATION ALONE OR IN COMBINATION WITH YOUR PRODUCTS.IN NO EVENT SHALL APPLE BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTALOR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OFSUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESSINTERRUPTION) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE, REPRODUCTION,MODIFICATION AND/OR DISTRIBUTION OF THE APPLE SOFTWARE, HOWEVER CAUSEDAND WHETHER UNDER THEORY OF CONTRACT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE),STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF APPLE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THEPOSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.Copyright (C) 2010 Apple Inc. All Rights Reserved.*/#import <UIKit/UIKit.h>int main(int argc, char *argv[]){NSAutoreleasePool * pool = [[NSAutoreleasePool alloc] init];int retVal = UIApplicationMain(argc, argv, nil, nil);[pool release];return retVal;}

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 11:56:45 am
content: Quote from: _Sin on September 01, 2012, 11:50:31 amWell then why the feck are you arguing the toss in a thread you believe is lop-sided on a forum you believe is loaded with people you don't want to listen to?And to think they were calling Linux users the masochists!

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 12:06:17 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on September 01, 2012, 11:56:45 amJust a naive and desperate appeal to shift the signal to noise ratio of the forum back towards signal. And I don't believe the forum is loaded with idiots, but there's a vocal minority who surface in threads such as this.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 12:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: _Sin on September 01, 2012, 12:06:17 pmWhat next? Shooing the tide back with a broom?QuoteYour comments could readily be interpreted as saying just that.QuoteThen why in blue blazers are you participating in such a thread?A couple of post age you were pissing on about how people shouldn't tell you what PC to use, and now you're here telling people what they should think! If it is going to upset your sensibilities to have others, or a majority of others, disagree with you, then life, forums and the internet are likely to continue to disappoint on a regular basis.

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 12:25:19 pm
content: Except for a few fights over who's computer has a bigger "p**is" I managed to find my answer.On a technical forum filled with technical people I can see that a lot more than two thirds are using PCs and refuse to throw money away on hardware which doesn't justify it high price. I certainly agree with this and i am glad I am not the only one.PS. for the guy who said we all here have a need to buy the most expensive test gear : I am absolutely sure I will not spend ridiculous amount of money on an Agilent when Rigol offers a MUCH cheaper alternative, does EVERYTHING the other one does and has THE SAME features (It's just a hypothetical example, I am not talking about specific scope models...)

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 12:39:01 pm
content: This is another thing that annoys me about Apple, and really the main thing, is the patents, the control freaks, the lawyers, the copyright thing.I think that's a big part of the reason people have such a visceral reaction to Apple. Apple is not at all unlike Scientology in its cultish and litigious image.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 12:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: dics on September 01, 2012, 12:25:19 pmBasically because of the overall flexibility and accessibility of the PC platform, or at the least the flexibility of the hardware today's PCs evolved from.QuoteThe Windows/PC platform has plenty of money needlessly throw away too.QuoteSorry but just like with PCs there are many reasons for buying better hardware, The Rigol doesn't do everything the more expensive Agilents will do or do them as well.I've always loved and hated Apple hardware, it is on average well made and devoid of the ugly entry level junks that haunts the PC shelves. Those legions of Asian notebooks with too little RAM and last years CPU being a case in point.What always drives me away from Apple is the inflexibility of the Software, the Policies, and interaction with other equipment. This just doesn't sit well within a hacking and small business development environment. Windows in its further incantations is rapidly catching up in this disregard for end users.Its curious seeing Agilent develop an Android version of it's Bluetooth instrument software and not bothering with IOS, this could well be a sign of things to come with Apples want to extract cash at every level.

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 05:41:20 pm
content: Wading into the swamp...I'm using a mac mini as my main development machine and have a macbook air for running around. There's a lot of Apple hate in this thread, to which I say, "Whatever, dudes."I spend a lot of time in front of these machines every day, so the physical aspects matter. The mini is small, quiet and doesn't take up much space on my desk. I don't like putting machines on the floor because they end up filled with dust bunnies. Plus, all the rounded corners look nice together (including a 24" cinema display, bluetooth keyboard and trackpad).From an design standpoint, Apple is reminiscent of Bang and Olufsen. They spend a great deal of effort on the exterior, while the innards are sufficient but not terribly exciting. Homebrew boxes are cheaper and more powerful, but they tend to look like something out of a sci-fi movie. I'm happy to pay a little bit more and get something that doesn't make me cringe to look at it. As a non-gamer, I don't need massive hardware anyway.I've done professional development on various incarnations of CP/M, AOS/VS, MS-DOS, Windows, SunOS, Mac OS, X11, NeXTStep, Linux (KDE & Gnome), to name a few. To my eye, the Mac OS UI is visually superior to anything else out there. KDE, Gnome, et al are getting better all the time, but simply lack the polish that Apple has. Feel free to disagree.My development work is all done with command line tools. I don't have a strong opinion on XCode because I never use it. Emacs and arm-none-eabi for the win!I actually prefer Linux for command line things because most of the open source stuff I use is developed there. But OS X is close enough. At worst I have to recompile something from source if OS X binaries aren't available.It's not so bad developing on a Mac.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 06:56:39 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on September 01, 2012, 06:04:24 amStory time.Remeber early 1999 when pc got keyboards with power and sleep buttons ?Well . Our 'CNS' people ( computer and networking services department ... Everybody called them the completely nnot satisfactory department) had bought some brand that had an extra row of key inserted between the home/end/pgdn and arrow keys...The keys were sleep , reboot , power down .. You had to hold down the keys for a few seconds before they acted though..Now, i was in the middle of a very tough debugging problem and hit the , what i presume was the 'del' key to delete a line of code... Holding it down while i look at the screen to see how far the line was scrolling. I vivdly remeber thinking wow this takes a while to start deleting ... And then the screen went black and i heard the pieuuuwww spindown of drive and fan...I look at the keyboard and realise this thing just shut down the machine .. And i didn't save at least in the last half hour or so ..I got so angry i yanked the keyboard cable out of the keyboard ( yes the keyboard , not the pc ) took the keyboard by one edge and whacked it as hard as i could on the edge of the lab bench , spot in the middle. The thing literally exploded ... There were keycaps wflying everywhere in the lab. People 3 cubicles away got keycaps falling out of the sky...The remains were put repetively between the door and doorjamb ... And the remnants of that were forcefully thrown on the desk of the it guy with a verbal warning . : if you ever buy these again you are going to be shitting keyboard buttons for the next 6 months ...Fast forward to 2009 . We relocate the lab and when moving some cupboards we find 3 keycaps. The 'old guys' all started laughing... The 'young guys' didn't understand the joke until we told them.A collegue of mine sheepishly dug out one of those keyboards. He had hidden it in a drawer before i could destroy all of them ( i had collected all those keyboards and thrown them out. ) we celebrated the end of move by pounding that keyboard to bits with a large hammer.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 07:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: andyturk on September 01, 2012, 05:41:20 pmThere are other equally small machines. And ones you can hang on the back of a monitor. Or secure to the underside of a desk.Please note: I too use a Mac Mini on a daily basis. Two, actually. Not that quiet once you start loading them, but that's what the radio is for.QuoteUnfortunately, a polished, unfunctional turd is still an unfunctional turd. My desktops are much more logical, use fewer pixels, and get more done than OS X can achieve.

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 07:16:39 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 01, 2012, 07:04:43 pmAre any of those hackintosh capable? If it were "easy" to set up a mini-atx machine with OS X, I'd be interested. Yeah, the mini isn't quiet when working hard. I can't hear it over my Rigol scope though.QuoteNow you're just trolling.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 07:41:21 pm
content: It is easy nowadays. Why? you can get a Mini-ITX or whatever it's called case in a computer parts mall everywhere( The last time i went i found it all over the shops )Giada-style.And you just throw a tiny desktop proc or a laptop processor with a motherboard, i built one for my friend i installed a A8-3820 without him noticing (Plus a 6670 half height using a riser to hide the shame) on a Giada MI-A75And 8GB of RAM all for about $450 along with a 1TB HDDCould you do that with a mini? Crossfire the IGP? Have a IGP that beats the crap out of the HD3000 or matching the HD6630M? (The other mac mini option only has 256MB ... how laughable for a mid-range card)In a case slightly thicker than a Wii

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 07:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: andyturk on September 01, 2012, 07:16:39 pmI'm really not. OS X is very limited.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 08:22:01 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 01, 2012, 07:50:58 pmVery limited? Do you mean in general or simply that the applications you wish to run aren't available?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 08:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on September 01, 2012, 08:22:01 pmIt does not provide any significant functionality to customise the basic UI.Please do not take things out of context.

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 08:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: T4P on September 01, 2012, 07:41:21 pmThat's interesting. I'd be tempted to buy a pre-built mini-itx that would run OS X, but I really don't want to build a machine. Do you know of a pre-built box that's comparable to the mini in form factor and can run OS X?Just to further irritate the zealots, my current plan is to buy a new mac mini server when Apple puts Ivy Bridge in them--perhaps this year. That'll be a nice step up from my current machine which is a core2 duo. Not really interested in moving away from OS X though, I kinda like it.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 08:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 01, 2012, 08:23:08 pmNeither does Windows, for that matter. X11, on the other hand...Sort of ironic that the OS X desktop leaves so little room for macdinking. Personally, I don't give a damn as long as it doesn't get in my way.QuoteI just wanted a clarification and you supplied it :-)

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 08:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 01, 2012, 08:23:08 pmTrue. But neither do the Fluke DMM or the Rigol scope that also occupy my desk.Well designed tools don't need customization.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2012, 08:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: andyturk on September 01, 2012, 08:25:54 pmReally, I'm glad you have the money to spend. The Mac Mini is a neat machine, always has been. It's just really quite pricy for what it is, and as OS X is not a usable OS to me, well, no reason to pay that sort of money for a new one.Quote from: andyturk on September 01, 2012, 08:33:58 pmUnfortunately, it's not a well designed tool. And, unlike test gear, there are options. Options which also free up a world of other possibilities made impossible or at the very least awkward by OS X.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 12:18:13 am
content: Quote from: andyturk on September 01, 2012, 08:33:58 pmFluke or any DMM do not have wallpaper and coolbuttons. for Windows, its right click on desktop->Properties and you may choose which basic customization you want (screen saver appearance etc)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 12:26:00 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 02, 2012, 12:18:13 amThat's.. not customisation. That's decoration.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 12:48:14 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 02, 2012, 12:26:00 amunder the "Desktop" there's "customize desktop" (WInXP though not sure for Win7). still not customization? fair, open up the casing, buy your whatever brand preferred video card, swap the old card (should be 10 minutes at most, 30 minutes or more if you're dumb or have PC setup like nihaomike's)... turn it on, the Windows will ask you where's the driver files, if its not already there, insert the CD and few clicks you're done!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 12:49:15 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 02, 2012, 12:48:14 am... That's not desktop customisation.And 10 minutes? Try 30 seconds. I can build a whole PC in 10 minutes..

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 01:47:40 am
content: I don't think of that as customization. I have numerous bash scripts that run underneath gnome on my desktop - even the thumbnailer is a bash script I've written. May sound trivial, but visual clues are very important for productivity and it's way easier to find a familiar icon for a folder than it is to read through dozens of alphabetized little orange squares. I didn't have to throw together dozens of c libraries or learn how to interface with gtk, I just wrote a bash script to do the job and changed the file association in the mime handler. Windows and OS X don't have this kind of configurability.Plus, I use unity. Lots of people swear at it, but I think it's because they don't want to try new things. Ironically, between gnome, unity, and Windows 8, OS X is the desktop that's looking dated...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 03:40:58 am
content: Quote from: andyturk on September 01, 2012, 08:25:54 pmFrom Giada. Who would want to buy apple's overpriced crap anyway.Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 02, 2012, 12:48:14 amThat's slow, i take 10secs to pop a card out and another 10 secs to pop a new card in

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 06:53:57 am
content: FE, I opened those and cut the traces for those keys, or remove the conductive rubber button from them, and replace it with a plastic spacer if the traces are passing through. Annoying keys, added to get the keycount up for marketing the darn things. Only useful keys in that area are the volume keys, the rest are useless kak. I don't even use them with Windows........., but the Microsoft keyboards and mice are nice. I use old ones, they used to be cream, but now have faded and stained to a patina matching where I hold them. Only thing that will kill the mice are the housings wearing through, have done cable repairs and button changes already on some of them.

author: Achilles
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 10:50:23 am
content: Well, shout as you want.....I wanted to try a mac as all my pc laptops were broken after 2-3years and until now (about 22 Month of daily use) my MacBook Pro still hasn't shown any Problems.As I often fill my HDD with data (meteorological data, satellite images) the Windows systems needed a reinstall after about 9 Month of usage (got slow like hell and errors appeared, Programs weren't able to run anymore).On the Mac I still run the first installation, but Windows XP under Parallels had to be reinstalled twice.The main reason for me was the Aluminium case as i personally don't like plastics for products I carry around a lot. Until now the Macbook pro really was the best computer I had.Before that I had a Toshiba Portege M200 Tablet which was very good, too. Well, that fellow had been more expensive when it was introduced to the market.Before that I had a Toshiba Satellite Pro m30 which was 1500Euro (well, a while ago but the same price class more or less) and it worked quite fine for about 2,5 years and then the mainboard died.All in all they are just computers fellows.... I don't care if there is a half eaten apple or a gorilla taking a poo on it. It has to be built rigid and needs to work flawless without tweaking the system every day.So you may shout as you want....it works at least. Even if the Parallels-Windows workaround may suck if you want to work on sth. quickly in a break. I also dislike apples policy: "we think you don't need it....ask as you want...you won't get it"....try watching a Blueray on a Mac. Or the nwe shitty MacBook Pro with teh Iphone display. No DVD drive....wohoooo.....I do use it!....No LAN, well, now I can dispose my NAS or use the creepy slow Airport or what?!?! The marketing decisions really suck!!! They still have the MAcbook Air, so please keep the Pro's an ordinary working machine or at least cut-off the "Pro" in the name.....If I may need a pure windows Laptop I would check out the Panasonic Toughbooks. Expensive as hell, but they are great. A friend of mine uses an old one (900MHz) for years when he works in the Jungle. Nice plus to clean off your muddy Laptop under the shower

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 12:07:56 pm
content: Let's get back to reality.1 this is an electronics forum2 the question is : how many of you use mac for developmentThis leads me to conclude the question is : how many use macs for anything related to electronics development. This means : schematic , pcb simulation , embedded processor coding , enclosure design , and anything that involved the development of a piece of electronics.The answer to that question will be pretty darn close to zero. There sily aren't many native applications for this kind of work on a mac...Even apple uses dell computers with either windows or red-hat to run their cad software ... ( mentor )

author: cwalex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 01:36:48 pm
content: I have the new macbook pro with the "iPhone" display and I love it. I searched around for EDA software but didn't come up with much. Diptrace can be installed, they are using a wine type of emulation to run it though. I installed it and it seems to work ok. There is a program called playonmac that will let you install windows applications. I tried it with designspark just to see if it would work and it seems to work ok too. Those aren't really solutions that I would be happy with for development. I have an asus g55 for windows stuff. I don't see why everyone is getting so worked up, if you don't like it don't buy it. This is my first apple pc btw.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 02:21:10 pm
content: I didn't need to reinstall Windows for the past 4 years, let alone 9 months. What on earth are you guys doing to it?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 03:29:46 pm
content: I haven't had to reinstall windows for a 1 year now but if i had to it's due to a virus! (Which i used to accidentally still have it)Slow? Ever defragmented your HDD?

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 03:38:28 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 02, 2012, 12:07:56 pmSounds like you're talking about professional tools. At the homebrew/hobby level, there are some good options for OS X. I use the mac version of Eagle which works fine. In theory, KiCad should compile and run too. On the coding side, the GCC-based toolchains work perfectly. Enclosure design? SketchUp looks good (although I haven't used it).

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 04:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 02, 2012, 12:49:15 amQuote from: T4P on September 02, 2012, 03:40:58 ami'm considering from turning off Windows, open up casing, unboxing the new card, swapping, turning on Windows and installing driver. for 10 minutes installing a PC, only if you have unboxed components right infront of youand be realistic man! 10 seconds only to unscrew the locking screw with normal screwdriver (not battery powered)but i know, congratulation! you're genius i'm dumber! you strengthen the point that PC can be built easier than what other people think. want more easier? just ask the computer shop guy customize for you the Nth combination possible and pay the money you get what you want.as for files view customization, i sticked with "detailed view" and "sort by filetype", press the keyboard for filename and avoid gargantuan amount of unecessary file install/download/view etc. want to bother more? open regedit and learn everything inside there (folder tree + command lines guys?), i only care about menushowdelay (somewhere in the tree to make start menu whooping fast) or if you are more conventional, just build a *.bat file somewhere.i kept the record of my WinXP format from my young age. the longest i have is about 2 years before i need new install (the shortest is like few hours or minutes, but i never log those), now i keep a backup install so next install including every softwares that i need will just take pretty much notime. new install needed mainly due to fragmented/corrupted new software install, that java/net/kbase update crap and virus. dont want corruption? or formattting computer? dont change anything once you've made your new install + softwares + updates, pretty much MAC ideology... i think.as for the keyboard... i keep my first keyboard (its like 15 years now), because the layout is my key standard for buying new keyboard and i never worked more efficient as my first keyboard (just cheapo normal old layout nothing fancy about 3cm thick, heavy and cream colored, now yellowish). yeah i experience the sleep button crap, cutting the soft rubber/track inside etc. i'll avoid the sleep button near those PgUp/Del buttons. once i had 7 buttons mouse and wireless keyboard combo which has DVD player buttons like on top, now not anymore they are dead due to water spillage (user error), i never touch those DVD buttons in its lifetime, that fancy keyboard A4tech or something iirc the brand. now i sticked to simpler wireless gigabyte keyboard+mouse, the sleep button is on top left near esc key, so i need to be carefull, lucky its recessed down. and i have extra buttons/knob thats more practical than what i have before.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 04:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: T4P on September 02, 2012, 03:29:46 pmdefragmenting is impractical esp today (the word should be vanished from earth now), i prefer fresh format than defrag... alot faster!once i had norton defrag, no competition to windows defrag crap! but even that i think with Tbytes files today, even the best norton is obsolete i think, sad but the truth. i havent touch defrag for so long, i consider it as "impractical theoritical" to efficient your system.SketchUp? thats toys! but fun! try designing a helix gear or jet engine and draught a proper dimensioning for cnc'ing by the old guys, i bet it cant. but only my quick playing last time with it.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 04:56:34 pm
content: If MS would learn to write a decent file system that properly supports extents, there would be no need for such "defrag" and there would be no slowdown. Care to guess how many times I've "defragged" since I started using linux and reiserfs?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 05:18:18 pm
content: i used to have a A4Tech PS/2 wireless KB/Mouse combo when i 10 it was pretty large and had a NiMH AAA charger on the transmitterI now just use a Cheap Logitech MK200 curved one ( Quite old already i think? Maybe 3 years *Old as in modern thinking lol* )So if i had a corrupted OS i just do a system restore

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 05:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: T4P on September 02, 2012, 05:18:18 pmanother theoritical uselessness from M$, try restoring a virus infected Windows, tried that ended up doing fresh format, the guy doing that should be hanged in public. i turned off my restore points to avoid pointless files data accumulation in that mysterious "System Volume Information" folder.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 05:41:42 pm
content: System restore was never meant to "recover" from virus infections - Microsoft even says so in their documentation. A simple example is code red, which infects a system by replicating itself into every folder you view with explorer. System restore - or pretty much any backup system - cannot provide that kind of granularity, you'd have to keep a complete backup image which would render it pointless.It doesn't matter if you're running Windows or linux or OSX, if you get infected with a virus or attacked by an intruder, the only sure recovery method is a wipe and reinstall.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 06:50:20 pm
content: they should log every files in existence in somew form of log file format, save registry entries new, modified or deleted and only save older version of overwritten files in some place. applying restore will affect "all" (loaded file during startup) files and configs, then only then thats the real "restore" leaving virus files or manual modification unaffected is pointless from my "Restore" point of view. the only best thing is complete format. so you confirmed it also for linux and OSX, so that means... no OS is perfect. so back to Apple vs PC machine/hardware...

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2012, 07:11:57 pm
content: Of course nothing is perfect.Now, what are the odds of being infected by a virus running linux? Compared to Windows?

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2012, 05:10:03 am
content: I use my mac for iOS development and for all my general websurfing needs. The latter accounts for nearly all my non-work computer hours and a great deal of my work and at-home electronics work hours.I have parallels but mine is a c2d and while it can technically run Altium in parallels, it's running single core and hence is slower than molasses. It comes down to what you need to run for programs and then running whatever that is. Altium is only for windows, right wrong or indifferent so I run that. Xcode only runs on OS X so I run that. For day to day stuff I actually get a choice and choose to use OS X.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2012, 07:19:56 am
content: Quote from: dics on September 01, 2012, 12:25:19 pmI can see the Mac Magazine spin now: "Mac computer usage higher in technical fields than in general population!"(really! Apple only gets up to about 15% market share if you include iPads. It seems to be 20% here, even without including iPads...)Of course, all but the thickest skinned Mac users have probably learned to keep their mouths shut and ignore threads like this.

author: dics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2012, 11:15:15 am
content: Quote from: westfw on September 03, 2012, 07:19:56 amI refuse to believe they can't even vote anonymously

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2012, 11:36:02 am
content: Quote from: poptones on September 02, 2012, 07:11:57 pmNearly zero (speaking for a Windows type virus). The low user base and the nature of GNU/Linux keeps it safe. I have only sporadically seen malicious scripts hidden in themes (mainly Ubuntu targeted).A rootkit story:http://www.void.gr/kargig/blog/2009/08/21/theres-a-rootkit-in-the-closet/Alexander.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2012, 02:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 02, 2012, 04:29:36 pmIt is not impractical, it is daily maintenance.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2012, 03:39:40 pm
content: I also use a starup defragmenter, from Microsoft Sysinternals. Very good freeware there.

author: benemorius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2012, 10:50:09 pm
content: I use an 11 inch macbook air as my every day notebook and I do a large amount of development on it.Unfortunately I don't think there's a very good selection of EE tools for OSX. The selection of cross-platform tools is of course even smaller. I use gEDA, which installs from macports easily enough, but it's an X11 app and the usability is rather poor in OSX. It's completely impractical to do any CAD work with the touchpad, so a mouse is necessary and that really breaks the convence and purpose of an ultraportable notebook. But it's cross-platform and that allows me to work from my macbook as well as my desktop, which runs linux. I've been meaning (since before I got the macbook) to switch to kicad, but I don't expect it to be much better with respect to OSX usability. If I recall correctly though, kicad compiles as a native app in OSX rather than X11 and since it's opensource I look forward to improving the OSX/touchpad usability when I have the time.For code development I use kdevelop. It turns out that I don't like xcode as much as I remember. Last time I used xcode was the first time I really used a full IDE for any length of time so it's possible that my first impression was skewed. I prefer kdevelop even though it runs in X11 which, again, makes the usability (mostly the scrolling) somewhat poor.Given some additional options, I don't think I'd do EE work in OSX. The plan was to install linux on the macbook but, open-minded as I am, I gave OSX a chance first. So far (4 months or so) I like it more than I expected and have kept it around, though this is likely only made possible by the fact that my desktop still runs linux and I can always run a native linux app from it on my macbook using remote X11 over ssh if I need to.So the bottom line is that while I do use an apple product for active daily development, it isn't ideal and I look forward to a better solution. I find myself returning to my desktop to work more often than was intended when I decided to get a notebook to use for work.