BluRay discs for backup/archive - thoughts? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2025, 09:07:42 pm
content: I really could do with having more options for backups and archiving. I remember BluRay being this fancy newfangled thing 20 years ago, so, as is typical for me, I never thought about it till now, when it seems to be on its last legs.Does anyone here use BD-Rs for backup/archive use? If so, what's the reliability been like?The disks seem quite cheap, the drives seem quite cheap (and are backwards compatible with DVD/CD). 25GB is a very usable amount to have on one disc in my case, and the 100GB BDXL discs are also a very useful capacity.I notice Verbatim make M-DISC variants of BluRay, which are supposed to be longer lasting than the standard ones, but I hear they are a different formulation to the original M-DISC DVDs. Does anyone here use them?As well as BDs, what manufacturers do people recommend nowadays for DVD-/+R discs? I haven't used DVD-Rs for quite a few years, but I may start using them again for some applications as the capacity is still useful for some things. Back in the olden days when I started with recordable DVDs, there were lots of failures, but I have DVDs which were recorded in the mid 2000s onwards which are still good. [Before anyone complains, DVDs are quite cheap and I have enough drives to last me a lifetime).I have considered getting a second hand LTO drive, but I think LTO tape would be too much of a faff for me. I'm used to using disc burning software and I will be deciding myself what will be backed up and when (I don't use any automated backup stuff).Thanks.steve30.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2025, 11:34:01 pm
content: I massively use DVD-ram cartridges, 4.5Gbyte on each side, but I am very interested about this topic.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2025, 11:44:59 pm
content: If you care about longevity, don't use them. The only ones that actually suitable for archival is M-DISC or gold metal layer DVD-R. You'd have much better chance of data surviving by storing it on HDD, preferably powered once in a few years to prevent motor bearing stall.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2025, 12:26:47 am
content: M-DISC was promising for long-term archival, but apparently it's nearly dead. The technology was bought by Verbatim (if I'm not mistaken) and their new "M-DISC" labelled discs are different from the original M-DISC and rumors say that they are barely better than normal writable BluRay discs. You can find good M-DISC writers between $100-$200. You could do some tests with it, torture the M-DISCs a bit (like leaving them in water for several weeks) and see if they are still readable.A good strategy would mix approaches anyway. You could use M-DISCs but also clone your data on HDDs and change these every few years to be safe, which is what I do.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2025, 12:46:34 am
content: The generally accepted recommendation in data hoarding communities is: store multiple copies of your data and migrate it to new media every 5-10 years.Low-cost-per-bit storage is always the latest and greatest, which means by definition it has not been longevity tested beyond a few years.Longevity tested storage (like printouts on paper) is, by definition, from an era with a higher-cost-per-bit.There might be some interesting stuff on/r/datahoarder's wiki> I really could do with having more options for backups and archiving.Ditto. The problem is my apetite for data tracks the current tech trends (imagine trying to store 1080p videos 20 years ago).

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2025, 02:56:10 am
content: I'm a bit of a data hoarder, but I have hardly anything compared to some people!I already keep quite a lot of my data on multiple HDDs. One of the problems I have nowadays is that I record a lot of video. This naturally takes up a lot of space (especially the 4K stuff), and I do eventually transcode a lot of my original footage to get the size down, but 1) this still needs backing up somewhere, and 2) sometimes I want to keep the originals from the camera for "just in case" reasons. In this case it would be fine to copy stuff onto some BD-Rs or LTO tapes and leave them until I either decide to throw them out or until the discs go bad. Here, I'm just protecting against accidental deletion/HDD failure, but also against having huge camera files clogging up my main HDDs when I 'probably' don't need them at all.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2025, 03:09:07 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on March 12, 2025, 02:56:10 amNothing prevents you from making multiple copies on different HDD's. Noting prevents you from using external drives. Not to say HDD is cheaper per GB than BD-R, and is way easier and faster to write the data to.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 10:08:59 am
content: OK, so I've ordered an ASUS BD-R drive (rebadged LG apparently), and some 25GB Verbatim Blu ray discs, and a big stash of Verbatim DVD-Rs. I think there will be enough DVDs there to last me a very long time. The price per GB for the Blu rays are quite good, so I think they will be very useful provided I can get a 5+ year lifespan out of the discs.I don't think I'll bother with the BDXL discs as they are a lot more expensive than I thought they were. Using 4 regular discs is much cheaper!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 11:48:08 am
content: 1503 DVD ram cartridges written and archived in a humidity-free box (by using gel-bags), statistics are: zero failure in 21 years!However ... the first DVD-ram unit got repaired two times.So, if the problem is not with the media, it might be with the reader/writer.Dunno, but I bought a replacement unit, just in case ...

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 11:53:02 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on March 13, 2025, 10:08:59 amI'm interested in what are they worth? LTO 5 tapes currently cost me about $16/TB brand new (about $25 per 1.5TB cart). I haven't resorted to buying them used yet.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 01:08:55 pm
content: I burned thousands of AZO dye DVD+R discs, mostly Verbatim but others as well, which lasted 20+ years except for a couple which fell behind a desk and were exposed to daylight. A couple platters of RiData discs failed.Out of thousands of discs, maybe 10 had problems because of physical damage but were completely recovered because PAR2 recovery sets were included on every disc.Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 12, 2025, 12:26:47 amI doubt homegrown accelerated life tests will be accurate unless the mechanism for degradation is understood. What I would try is to expose them to increased temperature for weeks or months and measure the change in corrected errors assuming your reader can report this data.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 01:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on March 13, 2025, 11:53:02 amThe 25GB BluRays cost about 2p to 3p per GB, which is on par with HDDs. LTO tapes will be far cheaper than this, albeit you have the expense of the drive, and the potential faff of using it (it would be a faff for me; others are probably a lot more geared up for it). That said, I am very tempted to get an LTO drive of some kind in the forseeable future.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 01:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: steve30 on March 13, 2025, 01:33:57 pmI'm currently about $30/tb (AUD) in for 37.5TB of tape and 2 drives (one off site as a spare along with some of the tapes just in case). Given the GBP to AUD conversion then I'm about half the BluRay cost. I don't know how much "faff" there is. I run a script that stages ~1.5TB of backups and then write the tape. If my maths works out that's about 60 BluRays in one write.Once a month I run the script and write a tape. How long would it take to swap 60 discs?

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2025, 05:26:19 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on March 13, 2025, 01:08:55 pmHave you had any experience of differences between +R and -R discs? I think I've only ever used the -R variety, and the ones I've just bought are -R, albeit with the AZO dye.Quote from: BradC on March 13, 2025, 01:54:34 pmThat sounds like good value, and a good setup. When I say faff I'm referring to the fact that I have an SFF PC and can't easily fit a SAS card in it, which would mean I'd have to use my old PC, which would mean moving around a lot of data on HDDs/ethernet, and I also have no experience of repairing LTO drives (I can service audio/video recorders to an extent). So, in my case, LTO would be a bit of a faff to get going. I still want to get one though...If we want to be pedantic, its probably worth noting that what I'm doing is probably more "archive" than "backup".

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2025, 06:13:23 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on March 14, 2025, 05:26:19 amI did a few hundred AZO dye DVD-Rs during the same time and never noticed any difference even though I think the DVD+Rs should have performed better.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2025, 06:45:44 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on March 14, 2025, 05:26:19 amThere is literally no difference in terms of performance, or longevity between +R and -R discs. The difference comes down to subtle format differences. Pretty much all DVD/BD drives can read and write both formats, it really doesn't matter. The main difference is the way pre-groove is made up on the blank media itself and how the ATIP is recorded on the disc.DVD+R is mostly marketing wank by the DVD+RW alliance (which is made up of Microsoft, Sony, Dell, Philips and Yamaha). DVD-R doesn't mean "DVD minus R" and shouldn't be taken to mean "lesser" of the two. The DVD-R format actually came first, and is arguably the most compatible among all drives. You can find both media types today, but -R will likely be a bit cheaper and available in more options (e.g.: Inkjet printable discs etc...). For comparison, a 50 pack of DVD+R discs costs me AUD$22 versus AUD$19.80 for the DVD-R. Both are Verbatim branded, 16x speed capable, and use the same AZO dye.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2025, 07:43:46 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 14, 2025, 06:45:44 amDVD+R should have been more resistant to damage which would otherwise prevent tracking and perhaps data recovery, but if there was a difference in performance, it proved to be too small to matter. I always tried to use DVD+R discs, but when I could not I used DVD-R instead.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2025, 10:36:29 am
content: BD-RE (read / erasable) supposedly 20years lifespanBD-RMdisc(write once) supposedly >50years (check drive compatibility)BD JIS X6257 (unobtanium)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2025, 01:41:31 pm
content: I had seen torture tests with M-DISCs a few years ago, but that was with the original M-DISCs (not Verbatim), and they would take a pretty serious beating without showing a single sign of data loss.Never really saw similar tests with Verbatim M-DISCs though, so can't really tell if they are as good. (Some say they aren't, but I have no strong evidence.)The original M-DISCs were claimed to have at least 100 years lifetime, I wonder if they didn't even claim 1000 years, back then (although that may be optimistic memory).I'm considering buying a M-DISC-compatible writer. Prices seem to have gone up though especially for the discs themselves. When I was looking, LG seemed to have the best writers overall, but they seem harder to source, I see mostly Asus ones, which are supposedly not as good or durable. Don't know if the investment is worth it.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2025, 08:26:07 pm
content: I'm pleased to say my new BD-R drive and discs arrived the other day.All seems to be working well. K3B on Linux crashed a couple of times when making a 'data disc', resulting in a couple of coasters, but it seems fine if you make an image first, then burn the image. It also came bundled with some Windows software called Cyberlink Power2Go, which I'd never heard of before. This seems to work fine, and for some reason seems a lot quicker at burning than K3B on Linux.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2025, 10:00:44 pm
content: I don't know about blueR, but when it comes to DVD-RAM over SCSI, it needs specific kernel support.A big and large buffer (bigger than the one for CDROM writers) + specific IO timing, otherwise... you just end up damaging your DVD cartridges.

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2025, 01:53:01 am
content: I've been trying on and off to have my "own" backups and not rely on the cloud, except as a backup to my backup.I got a LTO tape or three recorded Ok, and have posted i the LTO thread. Having grown up with magnetic media, I feel most comfortable with non-spinning head tape.I also have done some BR disks and put them in a 100 disk cd shelf holder thing a few years ago.My plan is to finally back up my stuff to BD and tape. Giving known tested copies to friends or whatever to store in their linen closet and replace once in awhile. .I remember there was a lot of shuffling around of CDs BDs and DVDs and a lot of test results when optical media was the norm.I would like to contribute to this thread about backup on BD and also share any tape experience I get.What are the best BDs and DVDs to get nowadays?I have LTO4 and LTO5 drives, and memory has faded on what i did years go. I used LTFS and the free W10 on a box I used to use for my MYTHTV server and various test equipment.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 03:47:49 pm
content: steve30, I too am interested in backing up to M-disc from linux, please do update this thread once you've tried some more things, particularly about selecting compatible models of blu-ray drives. I've had trouble even with burning cd and dvd discs from linux, part of me has a suspicion that given optical discs are seen as an "old" technology, their might not be much focus on working well with them (reading is fine, writing is the trouble) in today's Linux distros. That tip about making an image before burning with K3B is something I'll try.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 06:18:23 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on April 08, 2025, 03:47:49 pmI decided against using the M-Discs.I understand that the M-Disc Blu Rays are not much different to regular ones, which are themselves supposed to be very reliable. Therefore I don't think they are worth the high cost. If I can get 10+ years out of a BR disc then I'd be happy. After 10 years you'd want to at least consider migrating onto either a newer, different format, or a newly manufactured/burnt disc.I was considering using the larger capacity BDXL discs for larger data, but these are too expensive. It is cheaper (and probably more reliable) to just use four regular BD discs.As for the M-Disc DVDs, it doesn't look like Verbatim make them. Ritek (Ridata) supposedly do, but I cannot find them for sale here at all (so no idea of the prices), and I'm not willing to faff with international ordering. Therefore, I've decided to stick with the regular Verbatim AZO DVDs, which ought to be reliable enough.For compatibility, most if not all drives on the market now are M-Disc DVD compatible (M-Disc BD doesn't need a special burner). I got an Asus drive which is a rebadged LG, as they are affordable and easy to get. An optical enthusiast I know did highly recommend Pioneer drives, but these are more expensive (and seem to be target towards the Japanese market).I'm not sure why K3B crashed when I was burning some BDs. It was something to do with the backend programme (growisofs) which failed. I think the optical disc burning support is very well established and won't be going anywhere anytime soon (disc reading certainly won't be). If I get any more issues/solutions, then I will try and update this thread accordingly.

author: Narmaraktuk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 12:03:24 pm
content: I was also looking at this recently; and found Iraci (2018): "Blu-Ray Media Stability and Suitability for Long-Term Storage" interesting; actual measurements and results including pictures that show what failing discs can look like.My take away from this study:Most professional archivers will not use recordable blurays. Iraci could break most of them by applying moisture and heat over 80 days. He mentions that one brand did well, but does not name that brand.Initial low error correction rates are a good way to determine simulated long-term usability.I will still use Bluray, but only as a secondary backup. (mumbling: "3 copies, 2 in different media, 1 offsite").Qpxtool can get at the error correction counts that Iraci talks about under Linux. YMMWV depending on your drive model and support insideqpxtool.My steps in making an UDF bluray for BD-R in Linux:Code:truncate --size=24438784KB volume.udfmkudffs --utf8 -b 2048 --lvid="Pictures" ./volume.udflosetup -f ./volume.udflosetup -a # find out where it got mappedmkdir -p /mnt/volumemount /dev/loop0 /mnt/volumeFill/mnt/volume; then detach:Code:unmount /mnt/volumesynclosetup -d /dev/loop0And burn like this:Code:cdrecord -v -dao speed=2 fs=80960000 driveropts=burnfree dev=/dev/sr0 ./volume.udfNote the massive buffer and limited writing speed to prevent underrun while burning.Change truncate above to this for BD-R-DL:Code:truncate --size=48877568KB volume.udfhttps://sci-hub.se/downloads/2019-02-14/b4/iraci2018.pdfhttps://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/canadian-conservation-institute-notes/longevity-recordable-cds-dvds.html

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 02:15:46 am
content: HDD's cost around EUR 20 /TB25GB Blue ray disks appear to be somewhere between EUR1 and EUR 5 (I am a bit surprised by the spread).But even if a 25GB disk costs EUR1, you still need 40 of them for 1TB. And that is assuming all disks are completely filled with data.100GB disks cost around EUR10. Still for to 5 times as much as HDD space.12TB is fairly common HDD size these days. That would need 480 (or 120) of those disks. Just the idea of having to swap multiple disks for a single backup sounds as a huge nuisance to me. On top of that you have to find which disk you need when you want to restore data.HDD's win both on cost and convenience. I have never had trouble with reliability of HDD's (But they do fail sometimes). I don't put my HDD's into those external drive housings, but just in a silicone sleeve, and just connect power and data to them when I want to make a backup, for the rest they are living in a drawer.I make my backups on several different HDD's, and alternate between them. So even if a HDD fails, then it's not such a big issue. I do have different backup intervals for different sets of data. From daily backups of the projects I work on (A few MB), data collected from the internet (backup a few times per year) to music (2TB Flac, separated from the rest) and movies from when downloading was still legal here in the Netherlands (That disk is getting a bit dusty).Every now and then I make a "big" backup ( "Everything" except audio / video. A few TB at once), just because knowing all data is together so I don't have to search through multiple disks for recover a full backup. I've got no idea how long it takes to make such a backup. I start it just before I go to bed, and the next morning the backup is finished. My PC (inclusive extra HDD's) is so quiet that I can't hear it if there is more than 2m of open air distance. I guess that BD drives are as noisy as the old CD and DVD drives.Also, it's possible to turn a HDD off via the "smart" data, and drives can be configured so they do not spin up when power is applied. If you configure a HDD in this way, then you can leave it in your PC and only spin it up when you want access to your backups.And as this is an electronics forum:You can use a simple relay to power your HDD. Then add a push button to activate the relay and spin up your HDD. Just use an extra relay contact to keep the relay activated. When you turn off the PC, power from the relay is removed when the PC shuts down, and it stays off until the next time you push the button to turn it on. SATA wires have longer GND pins, and are (at least sort of) hot pluggable. I've never had a problem with hot plugging a HDD on a sata cable (Data first, then power, but I'm not sure if that even matters). (I'm using Linux, not sure if that would matter either, maybe I'm just a lucky idiot).

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 04:53:47 am
content: Extra contact to keep itself energized, called latching circuit. First learned in my 1950s pinballs (heh not long after they were made).

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 11:42:35 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on July 20, 2025, 02:15:46 amLet us know how you get on in 20 years. Backups & archives aren't about cost or convenience. They're about reliability.What you do works for you. Great!