Are there any VTOL RC aircraft that actually take the advantage? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ripuzojohi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 12:07:23 pm
content: Hi.My friend want to get a RC aircraft, and we found that similar to real ones, helicopters and multirotors usually have very short flight time and very low payload. Fixed-wings can be better but he do need the aircraft to be able to take off and to land without runway. We then think about the famous, special military VTOL design, but all we can find are just some proof-of-concept toys, the flight time and payload are even much worse than a proper multirotor, not mentioning helicopters...So do you guys know some good hobby grade VTOL aircraft that have long flight time and usable payload?Thank you.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 12:34:34 pm
content: Define "long flight time" and "usable payload".

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 01:33:05 pm
content: The short answer is Yes there are some and they do have a place but that place is very niche. There biggest advantage over multi rotors will be an easier increase to airspeed and if well designed longer distances covered to and from target.Fairly expensive but looks ok in flighthttp://onlyflyingmachines.com/product/nimbusvtol/Launching fixed wing drones without a runway up to 5kg is easy either with hand or bungy assist and rails above that can be done but the infrastructure tend to be a PITA. Landing is a different matter and generally requires a lot more skill and good robust design to get it down in one piece compared to a multi rotorPlenty of EPP (Expanded Poly Polypropylene) flying wing designs out there that are fairly tough.You might like to check out Tom Stantons channel. This video is of his MK1 VTOL and there is a newer one too if you go through his videos. Not necessarily the best design but you can see all the bits to make it work.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2019, 04:15:53 pm
content: That's very cool but in the video I never once saw the props oriented horizontally like in a normal airplane. How is he keeping the plane balanced without tipping or rotating? Is there a single drive stick and another steering controlling differential or two independent throttles? Or is it all done by adjusting the trim to provide slightly different amounts of power to each engine? Or some gyro or accelerometer feedback? It looks incredible that there is so much control with just 2 props when most drones have 4.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 01:06:11 am
content: He was using the two wing motors to provide differential thrust. As I said not the best design, his more recent ones are more sophisticated. Compared to a conventional quad they are in hover compromised but obviously have a benefit in launching and landing with zero ground speed over a conventional fixed wing.As to controls most modern transmitters allow mixing of channels to any stick (generalising) and you would set up a switch with a transition from hover to aircraft mode. That way you would continue to fly using the sticks in whatever your 'normal' mode is.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 02:22:59 am
content: What you are asking for is feasible. The military has started playing with it again:https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29161/the-crazy-v-bat-vertical-takeoff-and-landing-drone-could-be-a-game-changer

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:33:40 am
content: Everything is about compromise now. VTOL isn't very good at anything, but it is *acceptable* at a wide enough range of roles to let it replace what would be more than one specialized aircraft. This simplifies and reduces costs in logistics, manufacturing, R&D, training, and so forth. Well... that and there were so many bureaucrats hands in each others' pockets that they tied up way too much money to actually develop an alternative once they realized it wasn't that great... but let's not focus on that bit.There will always be a heavy lift helicopter that can carry more, and a plane that can go faster for farther or carry more.They have been doing that in a lot of categories as of late (in the US, anyway). Contractors are currently developing competing designs for a new 6.5mm rifle(or rifles) and a cartridge that will improve the current situation in the above categories for rifles as well. The F35 program is doing the same for jets.The downside with this logic is that for everything above (and more) there will always be something more specialized that is better for any particular task at hand. Whether all the effort will actually end up with a more effective military is anyone's guess a this point.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 04:15:07 am
content: The new Amazon Delivery Drone being tested is a VTOL design.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/robotics/new-amazon-prime-air-delivery-drone/

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 11:36:28 am
content: I'm not sure if you'd consider this VTOL, but you may find it interesting. I certainly do.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:01:39 pm
content: A model VTOL has far too much prop area and thrust to be efficient in normal flight + tilt-rotor designs have more drag due to the need to mount the motors so the rotor is clear of the wing. Therefore its endurance will be less than a conventional fixed wing model aircraft of the same mass using the same battery pack. When operating in VTOL mode it has the additional deadweight of the wing structure to lift so is certain to have lower payload capability than an equivalently powered quadcopter or helicopter.Full sized VTOLs almost invariably use liquid fuelled engines so the aircraft weight decreases during the course of a mission. This means that there is an advantage in being able to take off conventionally with a higher load than is acceptable for hovering, as the fuel load can be optimised for the mission profile so the aircraft weight only reaches the max hovering weight shortly before arrival at the target.However most model VTOLs use LiPO batteries so don't have significant weight decrease during flight. Therefore if the craft is too overloaded for VTOL takeoff, it will remain overloaded and incapable of VTOL operation during the course of the flight.Therefore if the purpose is anything other than flying one for fun or the technical challenge, unless you have permits to permit operation out of unaided visual range, or autonomously, need VTOL capability to operate from a small landing zone, and need more range or speed than a quadcopter or helicopter can provide, a VTOL is pointless.Tom Stanton's VTOL (Video in reply #2) suffered from a lack of capability to adjust the center of mass either by making battery placement adjustable or by making the fuselage pod attachment to the spinal spar adjustable. Also I didn't see any effort put into minimising the shift in center of lift between VTOL and conventional flight modes. This probably contributed to the instability seen during transition.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:50:50 pm
content: Quote from: ripuzojohi on July 28, 2019, 12:07:23 pmKeep in mind that RC planes do not need much distance to take off compared to a full size plane that needs a runway many many times the length of the plane.With a good motor an RC plane can easily be airborne in 2-3 meters, sometimes less than that.Also, you can hand launch it and be airborne the instant you let go.If you have lots of thrust, well over 1:1, you can launch vertically.i.e, have the plane sitting on it's backside and max out the throttle to fly straight upwards. This is usually done with an launch-mode in the flight controller. That way it can stabilize the plane.Check out 44seconds into this video

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 03:51:54 pm
content: Most modern RC powergliders have powerful enough motor to do vertical take-off. Demo here:https://youtu.be/sgI3fXLJhkE?t=63. Thrust>weight ratio for RC airplanes is nothing special today when extremely powerful, still lightweight brushless motors are widely available.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2019, 07:40:34 pm
content: $209 if you already have an RC radio.

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:09:37 am
content: Learning to fly old RC planes without breaking them must of been hard. If I was to try now , I bet there's good flightsim's tha could help, and I bet lot's of auto-pilot functions could be bought for RC planes now too/

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:17:19 am
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on July 31, 2019, 09:09:37 amThe problem the 'hobby' and even Industry faces now is the dumb dumbs with $ thinking because they can buy skills and think they know what and how to do it because Youtube....Flight Sims are of some help but the world is not a Simulator and trying to get an Aircraft as distinct from a Multi Rotor in and out of a location safely takes skills practice and knowledge. Auto pilots are of little to zero use to launching and landing of Aircraft and unsurprisingly most 'crashes' occur in those phases of flight.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 12:10:39 pm
content: This is NOT VTOL, but I can't help sharing it !!!Must have cost the builder lots to build it, and one would think he could have made a lot of moneyfrom promoters like Richard Branson. (Virgin). Although maybe if it crashed on 1st flight, wouldNOT have been a good Advertisement for the company!!! Very impressive though....

author: firehopper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 12:25:56 pm
content: as someone who does fly rc airplanes and heli's and drones, it takes a LOT Of practice! and I mean a lot.. taking off is easier than landing. but usually crashes do occur when taking off or landing. esp the first flight of a new aircraft.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 12:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: firehopper on August 02, 2019, 12:25:56 pmI only flew RC helicopters (very briefly) and a drone. While I agree that flying helis (and perhaps some simpler drones) has a steep learning curve and is very mentally taxing, modern consumer drones are anything but, in my opinion. It doesn't even feel like a similar activity. While hovering a heli I felt I'm going to lose it any time I get distracted for a few milliseconds or blink once too many. When I got a DJI Spark drone, I immediately could make it hover steadily by releasing it from my hand, steer it with hand gestures to the spot in my room where I wanted it to keep hovering, then go and make myself a cup of coffee, poking the hovering thing with my finger watching in amusement as it was "springing back" by itself to the tight, couple millimeter-wide spot. Those things have GPS, inertial sensors, barometers, ultrasonic and/or IR rangefinders and a bloody downward-facing camera that is actually watching the ground in real time and translating the combined video and altitude feed into movement information. When it loses radio connection, it turns around and rushes back to the home point, often landing at the exact spot it took of by visually recognizing the image of the home point surface. These really are flying computers and the pilot's stick movements are nothing more than just one another input to the flight computer that is really in charge of flying the drone.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 09:21:17 pm
content: Quote from: Zbig on August 02, 2019, 12:56:49 pmBest way to learn to fly an RC Heli is with a simulator... I think RealFlight is the only one remaining after Phoenix RC shut down. Drones have been very disruptive to both RC Heli and RC Plane market... and RC Sim market, as no one needs an RC Sim to practice getting a quadrocopter off the ground.Here's Alan Szabo Jr. flying a heli, and showing his control inputs. His flying style is very smooth and easy to watch... versus Tareq Alsaadi's flying, which is dizzying...Tareq putting a Goblin through its paces...