Here's an idea for a project - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 05:13:12 am
content: I would like to see a high speed camera for cheap. Cheap means that a unit costs < $1000. This guyhttp://theslowmotioncameracompany.com/(which started as a Kickstarter) is selling some high speed cameras that come close (but not quite) to competing with the capabilities of some of the cheaper Phantom high speed cameras, at a fraction of the cost. However, he stopped selling his cheaper models (which cost less than $1500). He originally had Silver ($800), Gold ($1000), and Platinum ($1200) models, each more expensive one having higher framerate and image size. However, the highest image size was 1080p. Now he has models that work up to 4K image size, but he's completely stopped selling his cheaper models (silver, gold, and platinum). Now he only sells fps1000HD-64 ($1600) and fps1000HD-256 ($1900) which both support 4K image size. There was a transition time, where he sold both product lines, both the more expensive ones that could record 4K and the cheaper ones that didn't. Now though he's stopped selling the cheaper ones completely.I emailed him and asked him why he stopped selling them. He said they weren't profitable to sell. I doubt that explanation though, because if he was making a loss, instead of a profit, he wouldn't have sold them to start with. Nobody runs a business to lose money. I think what he would say if he was being honest is "They weren't making me money as fast as I was hoping, so now I'm only selling more expensive units".So here's where my idea for a project comes from. Let's get all the members of EEVBlog together and figure out how to make a high speed camera for under $1000. We will need somebody to research what components will allow us to make a high speed camera with the specs that I'll mention in the next paragraph, but also be cheap enough that the device can be sold for < $1000 and still be profitable. We will need somebody who knows how to etch and drill PCBs (printed circuit boards), and solder electronic components. My idea is for a bare-board device (no case, as paying a company to manufacture a plastic case for the device will add significant cost, as they won't want to configure an assembly line to put out plastic cases for some device unless you order >1000 cases). We will also need to have somebody familiar with microcontroller programming, as you will need a microcontroler in the device to perform all the needed functions in the device (controlling the CMOS image sensor, writing data at high-speed to a RAM buffer, and finally low-speed transfer of that buffer's contents over a USB port). You will also need somebody who's familiar with all the component interfacing required (CMOS sensor to microcontroller, high-speed RAM to microcontroller, and USB interface chip to microcontroller).Specs will be as follows. The CMOS sensor will be a 640x480 monochrome CMOS image sensor. The video data rate will be fixed at 368,640,000 bytes per second, which is 2,949,120,000 bits per second. At this data rate, the full 640x480 frame will give you a frame rate of 1200fps. There will be 5 resolutions selectable for the unit. The list below shows resolution|framerate.640x480 | 1200fps320x240 | 4800fps160x120 | 19200fps80x60 | 76800fps40x30 | 307200fpsThe RAM should be able to support sustained write speeds of at least 368,640,000 bytes per second (this is the exact data rate required for all of the resolution|framerate combinations I listed). The buffer should be 4GB in size (4 * 1024 * 1024 * 1024 bytes). This will give you up to 11.65 seconds of recording time. Playback time will depend on the recording speed you selected (faster recording frame rate gives you a longer video, when played back at a constant frame rate of 30fps). The resulting video file should use no compression at all, and be stored as raw video data of 8-bits-per-pixel. When transferred to the PC over the USB cable, the software on the PC responsible for downloading the buffered frames in the device's RAM, should save these raw frames directly into an AVI file as this is a common video file format. As the maximum size of the recorded frames is 4GB, the maximum size of the AVI file will be slightly over 4GB (video frames + AVI container structure). The slightly larger size is the result of there being a header and index in a correctly written AVI file. In addition to the USB port transferring data from the camera to the PC, it should be used to send commands from the PC to the camera (for setting frame rate, starting recording, stopping recording, and initiating transfer of the recorded video to the PC).I believe that such a device could be produced for under $1000, and so much under $1000, that it could be sold for under $1000 and still make a profit.

author: jmsigler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 05:31:33 am
content: If he stopped selling them, there's probably a reason why. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to stop selling something you already did most of the engineering work for. He also failed to ship some kickstarter units so I 100% believe his explanation they were not profitable.It is probably possible to create a camera with those specs for those prices, but you are discounting software which is >50% of the project. You can also see on the Chronos kickstarter (pretty much the project you're describing) that it took 5+ years of development to reach a finished project.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 05:44:45 am
content: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-CASIO-HIGH-SPEED-EXILIM-EX-100F-Digital-Camera-EX-100F-/331955233062?hash=item4d4a12e126:g:hkAAAOSwnbZYGMX2HS 1000?224x64(1000fps)Close enough?

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 05:47:09 am
content: If you would accept slightly lower specs, that is 751 fps @ VGA then you can get Basler acA640-750uc for $467 and capture over USB 3.0.If you really need proper high speed camera, that is thousands fps at sensible resolutions and the compulsory onboard memory then I guess Chronos is now the best bang per buck:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1714585446/chronos-14-high-speed-camera($2999)I doubt such camera can be made for less than $1000 in not even small volumes, but prototyping quantities. Proper high speed cameras have rather special sensors, need RAM and bigger FPGA and a lot of engineering (hardware/software). The Basler camera is just a rather cheap sensor, probably some small FPGA for buffering and housekeeping and USB 3.0 transceiver and all that is around $500. Of course Basler is a for-profit company, but also they have some economies of scale.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 05:59:24 am
content: Quote from: jmsigler on August 26, 2017, 05:31:33 amMy hunch is greed, and NOT that he was making a loss on his cheaper units. Maybe his cheaper units only made him $100 per unit, but he wasn't content with that, and instead wanted to make money faster, so he decided to slightly increase the specs by buying slightly more expensive parts, and then HUGELY jacking up the price, so that maybe he would make $200 to $300 per unit. If I made a product, I'd accept a profit of $50 to $100 per unit, just so that I'd get more customers. In the end, I'd make more money, because more people would end up buying the product, and it also would be the proper and kind thing to do, so that you aren't price-gouging your customers. Make your customers like you, by setting prices that are actually reasonable. That would be the correct business practice (greed never makes a company look good, and tends to turn off potential customers) and, if I can get enough people on EEVBlog forums to join me so I actually will be able to make this project idea move forward, how I will run it.In fact, the only obligation a company has is to make a profit (avoid making a loss, and avoid breaking even). In fact, even each unit only makes $1 profit, the company will still succeed. They may not make as much profit as the CEO would like, because the CEO is greedy, and wants to make more money faster, but as long as a company is simply making profit (any amount of profit) that company will avoid going bankrupt, and that is what defines a successful company.Sadly, too many companies these days, and even hobbyists who end up turning their hobby into a business, end up falling for the trap of being greedy. The result is that though their product may start off at a reasonable price (a price that actually reflects the value of the product), they often end up jacking up the cost later, because the owner of the business succumbs to the temptation of making money even faster. And this hurts ALL the hobbyists who might want to buy his equipment, but can't because the price ends up being more than they can afford. That business man's greed then ends up hurting other hobbyists. Even if he was a hobbyist to start with, his money making power goes to his head, and he betrays fellow hobbyists, all to make more money.But that's not the kind of business operator I will be. My prices will accurately reflect the manufacturing costs. If it costs $400 to manufacture, I won't sell it for $1500, but rather only $500, giving me a $100 profit, and keeping the price reasonable, so that fellow hobbyists can afford my devices. I won't succumb to greed. I will make a profit, but not an obscene profit (as the guy selling the FPS1000 is making an obscene profit). Now all I need is to get enough people with the required expertise to join me. While I'm the head of the project, I by no means have the required equipment (oscilloscope, bench top power supply, logic analyzer, PCB etching equipment, etc), and therefore one of the first types of people I will need to join my team is the "hardware fabricator", that is somebody who has access to electronic circuit building and testing equipment. While I have some components and a solderless breadboard, the stuff I have is best used for making 555timer tone generators, and other simple circuits that you might show off at a high school "science fair".

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 06:22:26 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 26, 2017, 05:59:24 amHow many people would buy your $1000 camera? 10? 100? even 1000? Is $100 x 1000 = $100 000 minus prototyping and material costs good enough for you for 5 years of R&D work?Normal machine vision camera market is tiny (compared to the sensor volumes for smartphones for example), high speed market is even smaller and the professionals wouldn't buy your camera, but rather something from Phantom as they need their equipment in mission-critical scenarios. That leaves you with a handful of hobbyists with deeper pockets and some gadget collecting nerds.I don't know Luxima prices but I would bet LUX1310 (the sensor used in Chronos) alone is around $500-1000 so here just for the sensor you budget is gone. Similar sensor from On Semi - LUPA1300-2 is of the same resolution, lower fps but much bigger die (14um pixels) is around $1200. You've mentioned VGA, but I doubt it would be much cheaper if it is high speed (>1000 fps), usually it's the die size that matters and such sensors need big pixels (low light). The PYTHON300 from the Basler camera is cheap but 800 fps max and I'd guess much lower quality.What I'm saying is that going above 1000 fps (at sensible resolutions) is not going to be cheap, at that point sensors get expensive and one cannot stream over cheap interfaces so there is need for onboard RAM and decent FPGA.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 06:57:46 am
content: Quote from: lukier on August 26, 2017, 06:22:26 amI said < $1000, not = $1000. I bet if I could get the cost down to $500 or $600 it would get a lot of people who would want it just because it's "cool to see stuff that normally move very fast, end up moving slow so you can see what's actually happening". R&D isn't that expensive. Research is only expensive if it's never been done before. High speed cameras have existed for a long time now, so the research is done. The components needed to make them already exist. It doesn't cost a lot of money to go to Google and research info on high speed cameras. The research aspect of R&D could be reduced to a cost of nearly $0, as this research has already been done by the pioneers of high speed camera technology, and info on this kind of technology is freely available on the internet.Quote from: lukier on August 26, 2017, 06:22:26 amYou underestimate how many hobbyists/nerds there are out there, and also overestimate how "deep" their pockets would have to be. The entire point of my project is to make a high speed camera that wouldn't cost much more that a typical consumer digital camera, which means selling it at a price of around $500 to $600 per unit (and thus making it at a price of between $450 to $550 dollars per unit, as I personally would be willing to accept a profit of $50 per unit).Quote from: lukier on August 26, 2017, 06:22:26 amWell then that's one sensor I won't be using. And hey! The research aspect of R&D is already underway in this project. Awesome! You managed to research some sensors that would be possible candidates for this project I'm undertaking, so that I will know what ones would would fit my price range, and what ones won't. And it hasn't even cost a penny. See, R&D can be free if you do it on the internet.Quote from: lukier on August 26, 2017, 06:22:26 amSo is the 800fps max on that Python300 the maximum FPS at 640x480? Can it achieve higher a frame rate, if it receives configuration commands from a microcontroller to configure it to output only a smaller portion of its pixels (like a resolution of 320x240 for example)?Quote from: lukier on August 26, 2017, 06:22:26 amActually making it write to RAM, and then reading it over USB at a slower rate, is a pretty simple concept. And you don't even need an expensive chip like an FPGA. The camera only needs to have a microcontroller, and the microcontroller handles all aspects of the camera's operation (recording CMOS image sensor video stream to RAM, sending recorded video stream over USB to the PC, receiving commands over USB from the PC).

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 07:26:57 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 26, 2017, 06:57:46 amUsually, yes (to some extent), it is just the pixel clock that stays the same (ADC frequency).Quote from: Ben321 on August 26, 2017, 06:57:46 amHuh? Microcontroller? At 2Gbit/s data rates with critical timing?

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 07:40:30 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 26, 2017, 05:59:24 amInteresting approach. Did you ever run a bussines, top to bottom, to have the whole image of the R&D, total production and operational costs, overhead, exchange rates, admin, taxes, etc, etc?As a gold rule of thumb when you analyze a new product development, target selling price the normal starting multiplying factor is about 2.5x . Other people from here that are running such businesses can confirm or deny this statement.It's not about greed, "jacking up the price", "obscene profit", evil CEO, etc, it's about to have a long term sustainable bussines. I don't think that your definition of a succesful company as a company on the edge, just to be capable to avoid to go bankrupt it's the right one at all.if you don'thave a mass product (over 1 milion units range) If you think that you can run it with 1$ profit per unit or any 1 digit added percent margin, just go for it, be sucessful, prove to the world that you have a better business model that the existing ones. I wish you good luck ... you will need it.Happy breadboarding,TJ.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2017, 08:34:45 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 26, 2017, 05:13:12 amMost small business do. They sell cheap, fold over and die because of unexpected costs. It happens quietly that's why you are not aware. Often in the form of "it's too expensive to make" or "I got fed up" or "xxx happened unexpectedly."Try dreaming up all the impossible scenarios yourself and see if you have planned for them.Say, you sent your $1000 camera and it got sent back damaged. Packaging is almost intact and customer says it arrived damaged. Delivery company wants proof they did it. Your move?Or you are in the middle of mad rush finishing the next assembly for Boring Bakery Ltd. and suddenly engineer from Exciting Co. (you most favourite company) calls and talks to you about most fascinating things on the phone for 3 hours. It's great discussion and all but in the end he does not buy anything (he's just an engineer looking for a camera and his budget is $20k) and you did not finish the assembly for Boring Bakery Ltd. so the day is lost because you did not plan to "waste" 3 hours.You can make up the other 998 stupid improbable scenarios - they all happen.Bunnie saysthat shelf cost of the product is 3 times the BOM. I believe him.Quote from: Ben321 on August 26, 2017, 06:57:46 amThis is an awesome market opportunity for you, make the camera and many people will buy one. It will be completely unfair on you but let's do it anyway.P.S.Quote from: Ben321 on August 26, 2017, 05:59:24 amYour profit is obscenely too high. I are doing cool stuff, you have people doing hardware fabrication for you. $10 is more reasonable. Please make the camera, I have $410 ready for you.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 02:39:24 am
content: Here's my financial analysis of how I would go about making these high speed cameras.Code:R&D $0 (research on circuit designs, components needed, etc... can be done on the internet for free)Microcontroller $100FPGA $100RAM_4GB_high_speed $100USB_2.0_interface_chip $25CMOS_image_sensor_monochrome_640x480 $25Clock_oscillator $10Total_price_of_all_other_ICs $50 (flip flops, counters, shift registers, logic gates, etc)Total_price_of_all_other_components $25 (resistors, capacitors, diodes, transistors, etc)Circuit_board $10Board_etching_stencil $5Board_etching_chemical $1 (a bottle of it might cost $20, but the amount of the chemical I would use for one board would be $1 worth of that chemical)C-type_lens_mount $10Total_manufacturing_cost = 100+100+100+25+25+10+50+25+10+5+1+10$461Price_to_sell_at$520Profit$59Considering I already have a low wage job, and my income is in the bracket that follows these rules:tax owed is "$932.50 plus 15% of the excess over $9325"And considering that I don't expect the amount of money I will make selling high speed cameras to push me into the next higher income bracket.My tax rate will be 15%.That means that for each unit, for which I make $49, I will pay the government $8.85.That means that after taxes, the amount I will make for each unit I sell is $50.15.This is completely acceptable. I'm not expecting to make much money selling these. Really I want to help out fellow hobbyists (and myself) who want to get a high speed video camera at a cheap price, while also making a bit of money to supplement what I already make in my low wage job.

author: jmsigler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 02:52:20 am
content: Whos going to pay for the minimum $5000 in prototyping costs? What about commercial licences for software like Altium that would be required to sell something like this?

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 03:36:20 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 27, 2017, 02:39:24 amDon't even think you can run a business while keeping your day job. You'll have to quit. You'll have to borrow as much money as you can, take the mortgage on your house if you have one. Be prepared to live without any income for couple years working day and night. Then there's a chance that you may turn some profit at the end.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 04:07:05 am
content: I don't have a day job so that's not a problem What is a problem is that I don't work for free even if I don't work at all. So...I figure if I am arrogant enough to think I could design and build such a thing (and I don't), it would probably take 1-2 man-years of effort. Let's call it 1-1/2 man-years. So, about 3000 hours, give or take. My absolute minimum rate for even getting out of bed is $100/hr. So, it would cost about $300k to even think about designing something like this. So, how many units should the NRE be amortized over and who's signing my checks? When your marginal tax rate is approaching 50%, $100/hr is suddenly $50/hr - the .gov takes half and I guarantee they won't send somebody to help. Been there, done that, can't afford to do it again! 1099s are a bitch!And then there is test equipment. I suspect my trusty DS1054Z won't be up to the task so figure another $10k for a decent scope (I may be very light on that number). I should probably throw in another $5k for miscellaneous equipment.Now that I'm into it for $315k, I have to concern myself with competition. There are guys out there that are way smarter than me so this doesn't look like much of an opportunity.And, no, I won't do $300k worth of engineering on a bet. I want a steady stream of cash coming in! Otherwise, I have other things to do! The risk would have to be on someone else!These are the reasons that people don't get into this kind of thing.If you want to wreck a perfectly good hobby, do it for money with deadlines and 1099s.

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 04:53:28 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 27, 2017, 02:39:24 amAs I said above, who knows, maybe you have discovered the holy grail of business. I wish you good luck ... you will need it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:09:25 am
content: I think the FPGA is underpriced by at least $200. I suspect that for the data rates required, something like a Virtex 5 will be required. Just hope it isn't a Virtex 7 because they start at around $3k.If there is $50 profit on the hardware alone, that's great. The profit from the first 6000 units ought to just about cover the NRE. But once the sales get above 6000 units, everything is great! Is the market big enough to cover those kinds of numbers including purchases from your competitors?

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 08:02:20 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 27, 2017, 04:07:05 amStop posting in rubbish threads or you'll bankrupt us

author: jeroen79
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 08:02:36 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 27, 2017, 02:39:24 amSo you estimate R&D at $0 yet you come here asking for people to join your project?I don't see their rewards in your analysis.Or is free labour your secret spice?And you just list the materials needed.What about assembly, quality control, packaging, advertising, sales, storage, shipping, customer service, ...?Will you ask people to do this for you for free as well?

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 10:11:40 am
content: Rule of thumb is list price needs to be around 3-5 times BOM cost, to allow for cost of sales, marketing, shipping, distributor markup, paying the accountant, assembly costs, support costs, QA costs, storage costs, all that stuff.This ignores the NRE on what is going to be a niche product.Back to the drawing board for you I am afraid.Regards, Dan.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 12:27:12 pm
content: I don't think the hobby approach to PCB etching is going to work out very well for FPGAs. The device is likely to have lots of pins (actually, balls) and very tight geometry. The only hope would be to find an FPGA mounted to an adapter board but the pinout is still an issue.It turns out that manufactured PCBs are cheap. I have never done one for a BGA package but given a suitable PCB design package, it shouldn't break the bank. The boards are cheap, the NRE to design the board is not.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 12:30:42 pm
content: I'm not sure if the OP is trolling or just delusional, but you're all wasting your time trying to reason with him.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 01:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 27, 2017, 05:09:25 amHe just needs to receive 3Gb/s data stream from the sensor, which is probably either JESD204 or a number of parallel LVDS lines at lower frequency. As I understand, no processing is required. All is needed is to save the stream somewhere (most likely in DDR3) so that it could be retrieved later through USB or Ethernet. So, a small Artix FPGA should be fine.I don't know anything about camera sensors, if the suitable high speed sensors are easily available, how much they cost, but I would suspect the sensor would be the most expensive part.

author: kony
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 04:12:55 pm
content: I lost it at the suggestion of home etched PCB. Such project is 8 layers job, six if you are pushing it hard.OP are you for real, or just stubly trolling?

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 04:28:47 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on August 27, 2017, 10:11:40 amAssembly would be done personally by me, for no cost. Once all of the components were figured out, and the board etched, I would assemble it myself. I have a soldering iron and some solder. Because it would be a board-level camera (no case) that would further reduce the cost.Marketing is free in my case. As I expect only hobbyists would be interested in my project, I'd only advertise on hobbyist forums (such as this one). I think there's even a section of the EEVBlog forums for advertising intended for posts advertising items for sale.Distributor mark up wouldn't be a problem, because I would be selling the units myself. Yes, I would charge a shipping fee, but that would be separate from the price of the product. And it would be a reasonable shipping fee, only enough to cover the cost of shipping and make no additional profit for myself.I'd be my own accountant. I have MS Excel, so I can keep a spreadsheet of how much money is going in, versus coming out of my bank account.There would be no support costs, because I'd sell it as-is. I would test each unit myself, and if it worked when I tested it I would ship it. If it didn't work after the customer bought it, it would be because the item got damaged in shipment. I'm not responsible if a carrier mishandles a package. If it got broken in shipment, the customer would need to purchase a replacement unit. However I would minimize this possibility by using a lot of packing material (which is actually very cheap).I would have no storage costs, as these units would be made one at a time by hand, by me, so I would only have maybe 2 or 3 at a time sitting on a shelf in my own appartment, waiting for orders to come in. If it became more popular than I expected and I ran out of inventory, I'd post on the forum here stating that I'd run out of stock and ask potential customers to please stop placing orders for the time. I would tell them that orders would be possible again after I made a future post stating that orders would be possible again. After making more units, I would then post on the forum stating that I had more units available to sell, and that I once again was accepting new orders.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 06:10:36 pm
content: In many countries (like the entire EU) you can't sell a product to consumers and provide no warranty and support, by law. You are on the hook for a 2 year warranty if selling direct, so your price has to reflect your expected warranty costs. (If selling via a reseller, then you can choose your manufacturer warranty period, but the vendor must give 2 years, so they're gonna want their wholesale price to reflect that. Expect them to be willing to pay 40% of the retail price.)Besides, suppose it does become successful. You said you'd be working for free -- how long would you wanna do that? Do you have the time to build, test, package and send, say, 20 units a day for a year? What about paperwork? Paying an accountant to do the taxes? (Business accounting is far more complex than just balancing a checkbook.) What about the lawyer you MUST have on retainer in any business?

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 06:27:27 pm
content: I would suggest you to scale down the project first. Just do not build the RAM or processing yet. Start small and it would be easier to success this way.There are existing means of communication that can provide that kind of bandwidth, just shoot the frame data down that pipe and hope the receiving end can handle it. What I am talking about is shooting the frames down a Thunderbolt 3 or PCIe 3.0 x8 interface. Those interfaces have much less overhead than USB and are much faster. This also gives the camera a better chance at holding the imcoming data, since SSDs can withstand the data rates.Should I be you, the first prototype would be a box attached to a MacBook Pro over Thunderbolt 3. The box bridges the high speed camera interface to the Thunderbolt 3 interface, and relies on the MacBook Pro to provide all the processing and storage. All MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt 3 comes with NVMe SSD, which is adequate to catch the raw data stream. And you can spec it with up to a terabyte of storage, allowing you to capture longer videos.

author: ThunderCat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 09:17:03 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 26, 2017, 05:59:24 amRespectfully, I think you may not realize that products need to be sold with decent profit margins or they are simply not worth the effort. Making $50 on a $600 product means the seller could only make money on large volumes. You have to consider the costs of advertising, R&D, ongoing costs like websites, returns....there's a reason successful sellers charge a premium above wholesale. Only huge volume companies lie Walmart and Amazon can afford to have minuscule margins.This might be fun just as a DIY project however.Good luck!Mike

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 10:32:42 am
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on August 27, 2017, 06:43:24 pmThat's what I was thinking (or elaborate trolling).Quote from: technix on August 27, 2017, 06:27:27 pmWell if it is a streaming camera then and not > 1000 fps then just get the Basler acA640-750uc I've mentioned, 751 fps for $467 - problem solved and well under $1000.

author: electro-logic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 08:54:30 pm
content: Hello Ben,I have started a project called CameraVision (already fully working and open-source, seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-open-source-fpga-image-processing-project/) that use off-the-shelf components (board + camera module) to do image processing with FPGA.I can manage 2-4 fps at 8 Mega Pixel throught camera module GPIO interface, going further require high-speed interfaces and memory with a lot of bandwidth, very challenging from SI (Signal Integrity) point of view.Getting good images require also a lot of post-processing, sharp images and good colors don't come for free.. you have to add an ISP (image signal processor) in hardware or in software, calibrate optical system with things that costs a lot, etc... a lot of work. (this part is work in progress in my project but i manged to have good results).Getting something like 1000 fps at 4K with a single cmos sensor require very specialized components, very costly and difficult to do. At 1000 fps your sensor have very low exposure times so you need a lot of light and very good sensitivity (big pixel size), etc..Why don't use two or more standard cmos sensor (ex. 60/120 fps) with synchronized trigger to create a slow-motion video in post-processing? You need some optical stuff to send the light to different sensors if you want the same point of view but maybe it is more convenient that using so specialized harware.

author: joshtyler
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 09:35:31 pm
content: Quote from: electro-logic on August 28, 2017, 08:54:30 pmWorking link to your project(the difference is the final '/').Cool project btw -- Getting the registers on those OmniVision sensors set up correctly is a mission in itself!

author: electro-logic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 10:09:17 pm
content: Just fixed the link, thank you Josh.Yes set up registers is very hard, a lot of undocumented things from manufacturer..Getting 8MP with MIPI bridge is then even equally tricky. Data in and Data out of the bridge should be balanced well to avoid overflow or underflow.Post-processing like Color Correction, Demosaicing, etc.. is a lot of work but needed for image quality, out of the box they are not very satisfactory and minimal post-process is mandatory. Nothing is simple like connect cmos sensor and go.Have you done some projects with some cmos sensors?

author: joshtyler
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 10:28:49 pm
content: Only a much lower-res (VGA), parallel interface, Omnivision sensor. It was intended for a computer vision application.It was my first FPGA project, so getting off the ground to a stage where I could: configure the image sensor registers correctly, save an image into DDR RAM, and read the image back out to a PC, took longer than anticipated.In the end I had my image processing algorithm working in MATLAB, but only partially implemented it in VHDL. It's on my list of projects to revisit one day!

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 11:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on August 27, 2017, 02:39:24 amThat list is hilarious. You honestly think you can do a high speed 3+ Gbps FPGA design on a 2-layer home-etched board? I love that your list of "other ICs" are small flip flops and gates that are all rendered completely irrelevant by the FPGA as well. Have you ever even done an FPGA design before? Do you know what they are/how they work? Your list of required components is laughably incomplete, your price estimates for each component are laughably bad, and you expect to be able to do this entire design, including all R&D and prototyping, for free? That's a solid 6 months of effort at 40 hrs/wk, do you intend to quit your job and work on this full time for the greater part of a year, including $10k+ out of pocket for prototyping, with less than nothing to show for it? I hope you have a lot of savings and are willing to burn through it all for a piddly $50 per unit sold, all of which would be eaten up in a heartbeat with sales and support costs.

author: Geerant101
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 04:41:31 am
content: Multiple optical paths to multiple camera sensors with accurate timing to put them slightly out of phase might be an interesting way of producing "SLO Mo" in software. Thoughts anyone?Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

author: electro-logic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 02:56:02 pm
content: Quote from: joshtyler on August 28, 2017, 10:28:49 pmYes, DDR have refresh times so you need a FIFO to avoid losing pixels. Sending it to PC require a protocol and a fast interface (I do it with NIOS soft-core), etc.. Maybe now with my project you can complete your