No degree, want in the industry.. Time management of self education? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2015, 08:58:58 pm
content: Ok so I couldnt title this thread the way I wanted due too character limit. It should really read how does the jack of technical trades manager time between learning software and electronics.Ok so let me give you some background on myself and what I know as it may make it easier to give me good advice. First off I am 31 years old with a 16 month old daughter so at this point going to school for an EE isn't feasible. From what I know getting any Engineering degree is full time, if I wasnt a putz when I was younger it would have been a good path, but I didnt know I liked electronics then anyways. If I could go to school I would trust me, Ive thought about the night school ITT route but im not sure it is worth the money. I also have ADD and take meds for it, so I tend to be a little all over the place balancing 5 projects at once and maybe finishing two.So I started programming in BASIC at about 12 and then Visual Basic 4 at late 13, I was a part of the AOL warez and punter scene if any of you out there remmber any of the early days of this, like 1997/1998. Although it was a bit shady and kind of lame it was 3litE at 13. In a way it was cool because all these programs did was control AOL via the win32API and hook in to AOL's messages to windows. By 16 a local computer store payed me minimum wage plus free parts (I was the only 10th grader with a Compaq iPaq) to write code in VB6, and ASP. I was mostly doing developing a Point of Sale system with a SQL back-end we put on the internet. After I left that job my boss was a prick and wouldnt let me have a copy of any of my code to use when I got out of high school for job applications. Of course his store went under too so I dont even have proof I did this. At the same time I learned C at home and worked on some Quake II mods. I spent the next few years of my life getting in trouble and basically heading down the wrong road, while going to a community college for CS degree that I never got.Fast Forward a Few years, I got my head straight and while unemployed for a while I decided I want to learn how a PC worked, so I ended up making my own point to point dev board for the Parallax Propeller and have been in to electronics heavily ever since. I also have 6500 hours of industrial electrical experience, power plants, green energy, etc...I have taken the last year off to take care of my daughter while her mother got her shit to gather, my unemployment was relatively high. Ive been offered a job that has decent pay building 4G LTE stations, but its a bit of a catch 22. It pays well and it may be cool work but I have to fly around for 6 weeks then get 10 days home. The whole time im on the road I get $100 dollar a day per de'um so the pay and benefits are great but the travel isn't something I look forward too. Im also applying to any local electronics technician jobs, and more hi tech electrical job using PLC, motor control etc....What I really want is to be in the electronics industry I pick up consulting work here and there, but have never really given that a full time go. Im not sure the best way to find clients #1 and #2 im afraid I wont be as fast or as good as I should be.... So far I have built a robot which is a more long term project, the whole point of it is do be able to do dead reckoning and SLAM.That is a short clip of frank bot he contains 16 nimh double AA's, quad encoders, an atmega328 to control the LCD, and handle power distribution and battery charging. The main board on top is a Propeller chip Connected to another AVR, the idea is to use the AVR to read all the sensor that are on the bot and waiting to be installed and then send the data to the propeller. The board also has a 12 bit ADC 2 64k EEProms and an RTC module that plugs in and expands the i2c bus to the prop chip. Then there is a motor controller board which also converts the IR encoder output to nice square waves with a comparator. So far the RTC code is implemented and the AVR collects the sonar data and sends it to the Propeller which handles all the motor control decisions. The code for the batterys is also in place. Then my daughter was born! I plan on putting a home made laser scanner on top, utilizing wii mote sensors, although true TOF lasers have come down to 100-300 bucks. The top deck will also hold a Cam along with an SBC running openCV, and maybe thermal imaging now that, that has come down!As far as other projects there mostly home made dev boards, or slapped together test instruments used for a single purpose. I find I am getting more and more in to analog stuff, so I spend alot of time reading opamp data sheets and figuring out how to make low noise, highly stable voltage rails to feed in to 24bit ADC's. My intrest has shifted from mainly digital to making precision mixed signal instruments, mainly becuase I cant afford them! I one day hope to build a nice Source Measurement Unit. Ive also shifted twords the RF/SDR realm. I guess after I figured out how a PC works I dumped my z80 SBC and kinda tucked FrankBot away and started playing with analog circuits and volt nutting.Anyways I want to make some precision test instrument kits. I figure if I can make things cost accessible to the hobbyist I should do ok boot strapping on tindie. For example I wanted to make a digital load and I had it about halfway done and the the ReLoad:Pro came out.... the guy has sold alot of them too!My goal is to break in to the industry either though working at a company or building my own business. My biggest problem is ADHD and along with the amount of stuff to keep leaning! I know enough x86 ASM that I can use IDA pro to crack software and write some simple dos stuff in the flat model. I have recently got a book on PASM, i.e Parallax Propeller ASM. I figured it would be a good chip to really learn ASM on. Im comfortable with Propeller's, AVRs, and Cypress PSoC. The problem is every time it comes to honing my coding chops im seem to be busy learning more about electronics, or fiddling with circuit ideas. It would probably be easier to whack an AVR tinny in to my latest endevor which needs three PWM signals, one as a main clock and the other two or fed in to an inverting and non inverting opamp, but I chose to go the 555 route just so I wouldnt have to much with code.So to those of you guys out there that are one man bands how do you go about splitting your education time up between firmware and hardware? how do you become truly well rounded? I would say focus on the hardware and use a simple platform for code but that usually not cost efficient or speed efficient. Secondly how can someone like me get in with a company if possible? What kind of job titles should I be looking for?

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2015, 10:02:05 pm
content: Even the cheapest consulting will get you loads more money than selling to hobbyists. There's just not much money in it.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2015, 11:43:24 pm
content: So you dont think you could make a good living off 2 kits a year lets say comparable to uc/Current and ReLoad:Pro? I dont necessarily know if kit is the right word, I would like to sell something I make, but leave kickstarter out and bootstrap! I mean guys with good kickstarter ideas like the teensy make a living off of it, so whats the difference?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 02:45:22 am
content: Quote from: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin on October 05, 2015, 11:43:24 pmYou certainly can.I sell well over a 1000 uCurrents a year and I haven't advertised it since the Kickstarter, it's basically word of mouth.So for that one product alone that could be a full time living for someone on modest means.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 03:36:50 am
content: Quote from: marshallh on October 05, 2015, 10:02:05 pmMaybe, but it's capped. You only have X hours a day to charge your hourly labour rate.You might be able to make some extra on hardware or other stuff, but generally speaking selling products/kits etc has bigger potential upside.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 06:22:08 am
content: Well the real question here wasnt kits vs consulting. If your making money selling kit you can still consult, or even get to the point to do a kickstarter. Im scared to death to throw a prototype on kickstarter... im scared people will want it and i dont exactly know the manufacturing buissness. Id rather start small and grow not accidently grow over night.I always here on the amphour if you want a job show your skills so im going to put documented projects on hackaday.io and link to them from my domain. But the real question is code or hardware how to split self study time to study both? Im bad about building hardware and "getting to the code later". I mean if you watch daves video on opamp noise its the little things like that, that take up my coding time theres always more work to optimize the hardware! Sadly im getting to the point where i might really need fpga's to make some of my ideas shine and thats a whole other world that you dont just become good with over night.My problem is i hate librarys its why i want to learn assembler and not becuase i think im a better asm coder than a compiler or that my DSP code is better than what some specialist did in a library but mostly becuase im one of those people who has to know how things work... im a wheel reinventor even if i dont use the wheel i made i have to make it to see how its done!P.s sorry about any crap grammar, typed this on my phone

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 09:06:02 am
content: ITT is a HUGE Rip-OFFDo Your Research, and You'll Find out.I made the mistake to go there. My first quarter instructor turned out to only have a Batchelors Degree in Electronics that he himself got from ITT. They hire their own for the most part. We spent the whole quarter working on how to determine resistor color codes, and how to calculate for series and parallel. I am not lying here, it is true. There were 2 students in the class, and the professor made it his goal to make sure they could grasp the concept.When second quarter came around, nobody had the knowledge needed in other areas of electronics to prepare for 2nd quarter, that should have been learned in the first.The Entire class dropped out, including myself. They didn't care, they had lots of other suckers ready to sign up, and they get cheap paid professors with high turn over. Professors who have graduated from them. Professors who have no real world skills or advice, unlike a University or College. One of my Engineering instructors in college worked for like 20 years for HP designing alot of their stuff. I can't exactly remember what she did there, but she had a lot of real world advice and experience to share with her students. In my opinion, that alone in most cases is worth the tuition and time.Anyway, DO NOT seek out a degree from ITT. On top of that, those credits are NOT transferable, and ITT is NOT an accredited school for electronics engineering.It sucks having to take required courses at a community college, regular college, or university for courses that have nothing to do with Electronics (or your chosen major), but, you'll thank yourself later. I have learned quite abit from those other courses.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 03:20:38 pm
content: @Falcon kind of off topic where do you live? My father works in IT at Loma Linda hospital and goes to ITT at night in San Bernardino, im not sure what his acuall degree is but he got an AA there in IT i believe and is getting a BA in Project Management. Ive seen his homework and it looks pretty legit, I use to think ITT was a scam too. I think the coolest part is they have head hunters from the industry come down and hire. Im not sure about there EE program though... Like I said was a Union Sparky for about 4 years before my daughter was born (I left becuase a B.S politics and one of the biggest unions in the world hiring out scabs for 12 bucks an hour and laying us off) and during that time I had to go to school. I learned alot more than ITT taught you a year of DC theory, a year of AC theory, motor control etc.. So I believe if I went to ITT I would probably be bored shitless, especially if there EE program is that bad.Im pretty qualified and have no problem picking up technical jobs that also involve labor but i am looking to get away from that and get myself in front of a computer and soldering iron. I think one of the biggest issues I hear from listening to the amphour, embedded.fm, etc is that when you work for someone in the industry it is very specialized. So if your good with code as I am (I just dont enjoy it much anymore), pretty decent with electronics and ED your pretty well rounded, but at a company you have someone writing firmware, some one else does layout, then you have EE's. I have no super specialized skills im just well rounded mostly. So it seems to me I either need to work for myself or get an EE, which is impossible for the next 12 years at the least unless I did a program like Devry or ITT. I went to JC for math and got to calc before I left. As far as higher tech industrial jobs my biggest delima there is I have never touched a PLC, even though there much simpler than a micro I dont know how to program one. Id thought about trying to score a a cheap siemens and programmer somewhere just to learn that, figure its got to be easy... but its not really the career path im going for, it may be a good start idk.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 05:48:11 pm
content: At the time, I was attending ITT in Portland, OR.Just choose an actually accredited college for the degree you seek. These "Technical Trade Schools' Don't offer you anything, sure, they may be able to get you a job right after graduation, but, after, you're on your own. Get fired from that company or laid off, and good luck getting another job with that degree you got from ITT or another type of trade school. Those degrees really don't hold much water.IMO, You can or already have learned everything that ITT would teach you.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 09:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin on October 06, 2015, 03:20:38 pmI am not at all so sure this is anything like as big an issue as you imply.Sure, if you are going for a job in a megacorp then a degree helps with the HR filters, and the thing is probably quite compartmentalized, but there are hundreds of 30 staff sort of size companies with maybe 4 or 5 engineering staff out there for every megacorp, and when you work for one of those you usually get to see a project right the way thru (Schematics, Layout, Mechanical drawings, Firmware, Software, bring up, production BOMS and build documents, the whole lot).Now granted a lot of that sort of work is basically uninteresting, being (if you do it right) pretty much cribbing from app notes and such, it is rare to need to get your math on in a major way, but sometimes the electronics meets the physics and life gets interesting.Look for medium size companies where you have application domain knowledge, if you can talk reasonably about the industry they sell into rather then just about electronics that is always seen as a good thing. Sometimes bringing some board you designed for hobby stuff to the interview is a good idea (It can always stay in your bag if it doesn't feel appropriate), these smaller outfits are often less fixed about interviews and having something to discuss that you know well will often be seen as more interesting then the stock scripted questions.Finally, get a full Ham Radio ticket, it still opens doors (Surprising given how pony the multiple guess exam is these days).I speak as one who got into electronics design without bothering with the degree, had to spend two years doing the "Junior electronics engineer" thing, but a move or two later they say I am a "Senior hardware engineer" whatever that means (I was trying for "Electron Whisperer", but management would not go for it!), still seem to spend half my time writing C and assembler however.Regards, Dan.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 11:00:18 pm
content: What do you mean a full ham ticket? I have a Technicians licence, hence the call sign in my signature. Are you suggesting I go back for Extra? Im glad to hear small companies need well rounded people and not specialized engineers.May I ask how to find these jobs? I have been searching indeed, etc with terms like electronics engineer, electronics technician, electronics etc... Usually I dont search engineer becuase In my head that implies you have a degree. Also when jobs require an EE should you apply anyway or will you be filtered out?Im sorry I have never really done a focused career search before. All my well paying jobs I either got through word of mouth or worked my way up in to management for the non technical ones. I really want to get in to the electronics industry, I just need to be making at least $20 an hour, thats about the baseline for any industrial electrician type of work im used too. Electricians are turning in to roofers these days with all the high paying jobs being solar. I spen the last 3 years in the middle of the desert working on a 47 square mile farm and the last thing I want to do is take a job putting panels on roofs, it pays alot more than I even need... but I would really like to enjoy my work.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2015, 03:26:21 am
content: Quote from: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin on October 06, 2015, 11:00:18 pmI can't speak for dmills, but I'd guess he's encouraging you to get your extra license. Background for those not familiar with with US amateur licensing scheme: There are three classes of ham licenses issued today: Technician, General, and Extra. The technician class is the basic starter class, the general is a bit more difficult and adds more privileges, primarily in HF (shortwave) frequencies, and the extra class is the most difficult test, giving all available privileges. Each test has a mix of questions covering rules, electronics theory, operating procedures, and other items. The technician exam has a bit of theory, but not much beyond Ohm's law. The Extra class has theory questions involving AC circuits, impedance in the complex plane, analog filter design, transmission lines, etc. I know two 10-year-old hams who have their technician licenses, both in my local club. One has been licensed since age 8. These guys are unusual, but not unheard of -- there are younger technician hams. But I don't know any extra class hams younger than college age.Most hams I know are not electrical engineers, and so have found the theory portion of the exams to be the hardest part of upgrading their license. But I know a few people with an EE background who have passed all three exams in one day, and become an extra right away. Someone who understands AC circuit theory will find the theory portions of all the ham exams to be straightforward, and the rest is just a matter of learning some basic regulations, some frequency band limits, etc. (By the way, morse code is not required for any class of ham license in the US these days)I'm not sure of the impact it will have on a job search, but I'd recommend any ham who has an electronics background should get their extra class license, just on general principles. It's shouldn't be much effort, and it opens up a big area of the hobby. For many jobs it will be completely irrelevant, but the extra license may open some doors. It will at least help you network and make friends among hams, and that sort of networking can be extremely valuable.You can take a practice exam online for the Extra class exam. If you find the theory portion easy, then you're well on your way. If you find it difficult, then it offers an opportunity to guide your studies of AC circuits, impedances, filters, oscillators, transmission lines, amplifiers, feedback loops, etc. Anyone who is looking for a career in electronics would do well to learn that stuff in any case, whether or not the license itself helps you get a job.I don't know how many job opportunities the extra class ham license will open up. Certainly not as many doors as a University degree in Electrical Engineering would open up. But it's a lot easier to get than a University degree, and in either case, the things you learn along the way to getting the paper may be more important than the paper itself.Another thing to think about is getting a GROL license. That exam has a lot of overlap with the Amateur Extra class exam, but the GROL exam is for commercial radio. Once you've passed one of those exams, the other one will be easy. The GROL license is required for certain technician jobs in installing and maintaining aviation and marine radio systems. It will directly open more doors than the Amateur Extra license will directly open, but most of those doors will be at the technician level; not the design engineer level.Then again, there are plenty of people working in electronics who have no FCC license of any kind, and some of those never deal in RF analog circuits. This whole area is just one of the options in getting into electronics.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2015, 04:50:50 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 02:45:22 amDave, in all fairness, you had the initial advantage of a very large audience which was a big boost initially. And that's awesome and due to your hard work, so I'm not criticizing that, but someone starting out won't have that.Selling hobby kits on a limited basis will have very limited returns. The real key to success is in finding a niche with a problem that needs solving. And that could even be a problem that was solved previously, but simply not solved well, or remains solved with antiquated technology.Want to get paid? Solve a niche problem well with solution that gives a solid ROI.===============If you want "in the business," I'm going to assume that is as a technician. Showing interest and showing well done projects that show quality handiwork and being able to explain how you solved the problems or troubleshot the design will go a long way.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2015, 06:44:15 am
content: Well I had planned to make some higher precision test and measurement stuff (lets just say it includes kevin clips) that I dont see easily available to the hobbyist or consultant for under $500 bucks. I was shooting for a $70 to $100 dollar price range. Is that what you mean by finding a niche problem? I know mega corp will choose tektronix or agilent every time but I think I can give those guys a run for there money when it comes to the one man band or small business needing equipment. I love mixed signal stuff and I plan on doing 24 bit resolution, and hopefully a dead on calibration. My end goal is to learn enough to build a decent SMU that is pocket friendly maybe not as capable as a keithly but hey theres no competitors so my guess is any SMU that does a decent job for under $500 bucks is a welcome option over a few grand, unless you actually need keithly quality and can afford it. I find that I really like to build tools I dont own/cant afford. I feel like if you have a few decent meters a scope and a way to do spectrum analysis(mostly for EMI stuff, and the RTL dongle is very versatile and cheap) than your pretty set to build almost any other tool you can think of in a more cost effective way. I think test equipment is mostly expensive due to being a niche product. I guess I want to try and boot strap products, as I wont be sending people bags of resistors and excpect them to reflow!I am just starting down the RF road. I have a job offer as an LTE technician but it requires alot more travel than Id like. I basically got my HAM licence in hopes that would help negotiate my starting wage. Ive been in to SDR for a while and would like to build my own, but that is still a ways on down the road kind of like the completion of FrankBot.... there is still so much to learn just getting in to RF. I figured if I end up taking this job for now I will have a lot of hotel time, so ill just bring my laptop and gear and design these kits/products while im away from home.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2015, 07:20:24 am
content: Go the contracting route. I think you will find that in many cases you can come to an agreement wherever the work may be. It give you a little more control and it also means you have to produce.

author: rjeberhardt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2015, 09:01:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 02:45:22 amYes, but with something like that how much does it cost to go through the testing and CE marking for selling in Europe?Russsell

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2015, 07:35:53 pm
content: Is CE the same in the EU as a UL stamp in the US?I know were talking about Daves kit here but I hadn't even thought of the cost of UL approval, not even sure how that works I have a big UL book I should probably look through. Im not really sure certifications on products are to important if you aren't marketing to MegaCorp. As an enthusiast, and aspiring professional I think If I could see the kit was designed safely Id rather a developer spend that money on NIST calibration!

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 03:15:20 am
content: Quote from: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin on October 07, 2015, 07:35:53 pmNo.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 05:02:04 am
content: There has already been several threads about this subject of UL, CE, ROHS, etc.From what I gathered, the general concensus was that if the product did not connect to Mains or was not emitting something that would bring an airplane down, You probably don't really need the cert, unless it was a device required for safety reasons, like a sensor that triggers an airbag on a car, etc.Also, CE is more standards then UL to pass if I remember correctly. UL testing is done with private firms (like UL themselves) that are recognized by the national safety standards boards (or something they are called)That's mostly what I gathered from reading the other postsIn either case, I actually explored this, and talked with someone recently who worked at one of the UL labs here in Portland, OR area. He said it was extremely expensive and could be a long drawn out process to get something certified for both UL and CE. You often have to send them several of your products, and they purposely push them to their limits and destroy them in ways that the normal consumer would NEVER do.

author: rjeberhardt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 10:21:59 am
content: In Europe CE marking is to show compliance with EU Directives and shows that all applicable directives are complied with. Compliance with standards is one way of demonstrating compliance.The electrical safety directive (bizarrely called the Low Voltage Directive) is easily covered by a Technical File rather than testing against standards for battery operated equipment.The EMC directive is more difficult. You have to show that it is neither a cause of undue radiation or susceptible to interference and applies to virtually all electronic equipment. The only reasonable route is to have it tested against standards. Equipment containing a microprocessor will certainly need testing.The WEEE Directive doesn't require CE marking itself but must be complied with.Failure to CE mark electronic equipment that is "placed on the market" is a criminal offence. The only exceptions are for large fixed installations and military equipment.Russell.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 12:32:34 pm
content: I develop and sell my own stuff both directly and through distributors and retailers, as well as keeping my toe in the water with consulting, although the consulting is sporadic (my choice!).Manufacturing stuff I learned the hard way, I'd had zero experience before doing it myself. Getting the relevent certifications can be a significant cost, it very much depends on the device as to what the certifications are that are required. In general a small operator will be dependent on a third party for expertise in this area, both in terms of going through the hoops as well as technically. FCC in particular demands an appropriately accredited agent.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 03:15:13 pm
content: Like I said im not worried about certifications on products at this point. I doubt I will be selling anything through a chain (I guess you never know). I do know something like HackRF (https://greatscottgadgets.com/hackrf/) is exempt from FCC testing since Mike Ossman classifies it as test equipment. Most kit I want to develop is either educational or test equipment.Lets take Uni-T for example they make great meters for electronics... BUT as an electrician I will only use use Fluke, Klien, ExTech meters with UL listings if im going to be testing 1000 volts of solar output... In the case of my ideas none of them are anything you would ever find yourself plugging in to voltages like that.Now knowing more about CE I am curious lets take these three kits for example#1 Dave u/Current, needs no link I would hope#2 Reload:Pro (http://www.arachnidlabs.com/reload-pro/)#3 CEE Analog Measurement (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/11863): I really wanted one of these looks as though its retired hope I can still find oneSince these are all sold and developed in the US is there any repercussions of people buying them in the EU, i am going to guess no.. but how about if they were sold through an EU vendor would they then need to be CE certified? I chose these kits because they all tie in closely with some of what I would like to do.What happens if you were to make PSU kit which used a transformer and diode bridge? Would you then be subjected to UL and or CE?

author: rjeberhardt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 04:05:23 pm
content: O.K. I can't answer regarding FCC or UL but I spent some time before I retired on a number of European standards committees and working groups, representing the U.K. so I can try to answer the points you raise."Most kit I want to develop is either educational or test equipment. "Electronic educational and test equipment does require CE marking to be sold in the EU."Now knowing more about CE I am curious lets take these three kits for example"All three are complete products and would require CE marking to be sold in the EU."Since these are all sold and developed in the US is there any repercussions of people buying them in the EU, i am going to guess no."A private individual importing a product to the EU for his own use does not need to have the product CE marked, although he is still legally responsible if he causes radio interference by using it."how about if they were sold through an EU vendor would they then need to be CE certified?"Yes. The good news for you is that it is the person or organisation that places the product on the market that is responsible and committing an offence if it is not marked."What happens if you were to make PSU kit which used a transformer and diode bridge? Would you then be subjected to UL and or CE?"It depends what you mean by kit. If it is sold as a kit of parts for home assembly it would not need CE marking. Ready assembled it would need it.Although most products have the CE mark on the product itself, that is not necessary, the mark could be on accompanying documentation or the packaging. It is also an offence to CE mark a product that is not covered by a Directive that requires it to be marked.Russell.