So this is how it starts... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Calaverasgrande
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 07:57:09 pm
content: I was happy for decades with my Micronta/Radio Shack 22-185A. Only 3 and half digits. But it had a continuity beeper and gave pretty reliable volts and ohm readings.Then I progressed in learning audio electronics and I wanted/needed a more accurate meter, and for better workflow, a bench meter.Got an okay deal on a Keithley 175A. Sure it's about as old as the Micronta and only one digit more, but it has dB, logging, relative etc. And you actually need to RTFM to really use it. So I feel like I'm going somewhere.But now I need more after only a couple years with the Keithley.I want to read capacitance, have more dB modes. Need better accuracy in the megohm range.(My old DMMs fall flat on their face above a meg or so)Does it ever end?I feel like I'm going in the same direction I did with DIY audio gear. First it was about saving money. Now I spend more time making equalizers, synths and preamps than I do making music. Soon I will spend more time acquiring and calibrating bench gear than building things!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 10:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: Calaverasgrande on January 05, 2024, 07:57:09 pmHow did that work out? 🤣GAS + TEAS is dangerous! Enjoy. 😉

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 11:32:28 pm
content: Well, to be honest, you're a long way off from becoming a test equipment anonymous member with only two ancient DMMs! The Keithley 175A is a cute bench meter, but it's definitely an antique with the small LCD and all those potentially flaky mode/range push-button switches.Ignorance can be bliss if you're not active in the field. There have been some pretty big milestones with regard to multimeters/DMMs that would have been sad to miss.Historically, I don't think it was more than a few years after the 22-185A that the 22-167 came out with auto range functionality. I distinctly remember growing up with the incessant clacking of my grandfather's Beckman 3020, so when I saw the 22-167 in Radio Shack I had to have it (and still do).Around 2001 or so I bought the Greenlee DM-210 (Brymen BM202) which blew my mind with computer connectivity, EF, capacitance, frequency and more.The only bench DMM I had been exposed to up to that point was the Fluke 8010A back in my college days, which was pretty anemic even for the time.But after that I didn't buy any more test equipment until about six years ago when I bought a house big enough to unpack my grandfather's stuff I inherited. Then I set up a small work bench and started to tinker, at which point my inevitable path to TEA membership began.In my opinion, deciding what test equipment to buy is highly subjective and personal. One main issue that leads to TEA is that there is NOT a single, perfect device. So you have three bench DMMs because each has some amazing feature you don't want to give up.What to buy next? Probably best to list out all the specifics that you are needing so everyone can chime in intelligently.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 11:35:34 pm
content: Welcome to the world of TE acquisition.Support starts here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 01:08:27 am
content: Quote from: J-R on January 05, 2024, 11:32:28 pmChill out with the gatekeeping. Dude's ready to get some new TE stuff, and he's excited about it. We all know it's just the beginning.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 01:56:33 am
content: I mean if he's already being cautious with just those two DMMs, I have my doubts he'll get a TEA membership card! Could be a while...Maybe kick things off with a Brymen BM869s?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 02:10:17 am
content: It all starts from just a DMM………

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 03:21:37 am
content: Quote from: Calaverasgrande on January 05, 2024, 07:57:09 pmYes.

author: Calaverasgrande
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 06:18:30 pm
content: Well the DMMS are hardly where it ends.I've already got (bottom to to top)a Topward 3 channel PSB&K function generatorthe aforementioned Keithleyand the classic Rigol DS1054ZReally want to stop it right there because the whole point of this DIY thing was to not spend $10k on audio gear when I can build it for a fraction.For example, I just finished building a knockoff of the famous Solid State Logic buss compressor. The retail version is several grand. The DIY version is currently totaling about $550. Though I'm still hunting for an out of production potentiometer to finish it.I've also built almost all of my 500 series EQ and dynamics processors, which saves me at least 50% over the the pre-built equivalents.And nearly all of my modular synthesizer gear, saving me again about 50% over store bought.So surely I can budget for an LCR meter. Whats that $50 USD?But my inner gear nerd wants a bench meter with capacitance. The Keithley is cute but as pointed out, it does have a small display.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 08:05:42 pm
content: Quote from: Calaverasgrande on January 07, 2024, 06:18:30 pmI also built all of my 500 series gear. 😉A good LCR is more than that. You can start with the DE-5000 which is a great bang for your buck LCR meter. However, if you want something better, good bench meters tend to cost a LOT more.The Siglent SDM3045X is a great bench meter that also has capacitance. It can usually be upgraded to the SDM3055X-E via a firmware change. I also have an SDM3055 I bought used for less than the 3045 that I bought new.Now, considering you saved thousands of dollars on your audio gear, you have a few dollars to spend on some TE. 🤣🤣Don't let anybody push you into a pissing contest, it doesn't matter what others think of your collection.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 11:06:12 pm
content: Buyers typically fit into a few obvious categories, such as "cheap, cheap, cheap", "bargain hunters" and "money is no object".I think buying "cheap" is a major problem in our current disposable society, so I frown upon that path.Personally, I am pretty solid in the "bargain hunters" category, which suits me well. I like having quality stuff but don't want to pay for it, so I typically buy used or "broken" or smokin' deals on new."Money is no object" appears fine if you have the cash to burn, but it almost always leads to eccentric results where you focus too much of your buying power in one area.The DE-5000 is really the lowest you should go if shopping for a new LCR meter. Trying to reach $50 instead of $100 is just not worth it. If you're really that poor or tight, then just use your scope and function generator to calculate your inductors and capacitors!Best place to buy is eBay, as there are a lot of sellers from Japan offering a wide variety of optional accessories.Also in my opinion, a leading cause of TEA is not spending the money when you should, so you buy something that is just good enough but then the shortcomings become evident, so you have to buy something better. Now you have two! Just buy the better gear the first time.The low-hanging-fruit really strikes me as that old handheld DMM, so I still vote for trying to get something modern. The BM869s is great, but a close second in this case could be the BM829s if you're not a volt nut and want to save $60.dBm specs:"At 600 Ohms, -11.76dBm to 54.25d8m,Accuracy: ± 0.25dB + 2d (@40Hz - 20kHz)Input Impedance: 10M Ohms, 50pF nominalSelectable reference impedance of 4, 8, 16, 32, 50, 75, 93, 110, 125, 135, 150, 200, 250, 300, 500, 600, 800, 900, 1000, 1200 Ohms"$147.98 (USD) delivered:https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM829s-Multimeter_1

author: Calaverasgrande
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 12:30:10 am
content: I have been educated by the harsh whims of reality to the "buy once cry once" school of thought.Every time I think I can get away with a budget option I get bitten for it.ESPECIALLY with tools.The Keithley was the result of lusting after their more modern DMMs which are always out of my reach.The 175a is still not a 2000 series but it at least had me feeling like I'm moving in the right direction with dB mode and more precision.But it does seem to fall short in a few areas.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 06:54:07 am
content: Hmm, to be honest I don't see the point in lusting after the Keithley 2000, as that pricey relic is better suited for hopelessly lost TEA members where specific features like the option slot may arouse them! For everyone else, it can be clunky as a daily-use bench DMM and it's missing useful features like capacitance and reliability (leaky caps can be a problem).If funds are really that tight, then maybe keep the 175A for now and fill in the gaps with the DE-5000. Even if you eventually buy a modern bench DMM with all the bells and whistles, you'll still need an LCR meter.Personally I am not a Siglent fan, but but perhaps contemplate the SDM3045X. $399 new. I do see that the manual states the reference resistance range for dBm is 50-8000 Ohms. The K2000 is 1-9999 Ohms, but otherwise from a usability standpoint the SDM3045X is going to be a dream to use on a daily basis compared to the K2000 (or similar).

author: mojoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 09:46:31 am
content: Don't stop with a few DMM's. You need one of these:https://www.sanwa-america.com/products/em7000-analog-multimeter-high-sensitivity-for-measurement-of-lower-capacitanceI've been wanting one for quite a while and recently bought one. I won't use it often, but there are times when an analog meter is needed. I can't use those bar graphs on some DMM's. You need a sync'ed stroboscope to follow it.And if you work on old tube gear, you may need a traditional low impedance analog meter (like a Simpson). Some of the measurements will be off with a high impedance meter.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 09:54:47 am
content: Or an AVO……but how many are enough ?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 10:08:36 am
content: An analog meter is an interesting guy in certain scenarios, but it is certainly not indispensable. I love the EM7000 and, if I didn't have already my late dad's ICE 680R fully restored, I would definitely consider it.As for the OP's dilemma, I would do what others have mentioned: keep the 175, get the DER EE DE-5000 LCR meter and it will cover a very wide range of measurements.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 03:28:19 am
content: I still have my first analog meter from when I was about 13. It was an ArcherKit 28-4013A from Radio Shack that I had to assemble. It never saw the light of day once I got a DMM.I also have a couple analog AC meters in my TEA collection. But in my opinion I've not seen a 100% absolute requirement for one. Mostly personal preference.Technically the bar graph is faster than the needle. Be sure to set it to manual range so the scale is not changing on you.Also plenty of bench DMMs can do fast sampling to a computer for processing or you can configure internally the number of samples along with specific filtering modes. For example with a Keithley you could use the repeating filter.For lower impedance measurements, why not just place a resistor in parallel with your DMM?

author: mojoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 05:39:48 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on January 09, 2024, 03:28:19 amBecause it's not a fixed input impedance. Go look at an analog meter. Most are labeled 20K/Volt or similar. Some of the old test and adjustment procedures counted on this when specifying what value to adjust for. Some very early gear needed a specific meter with an even lower Ohms/Volt to do a proper adjustment. The Hickock tube tester comes to mind.If you never work on anything but equipment made in recent decades, then none of this matters, and you'll probably never need an analog meter.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 09:01:12 pm
content: The input impedance of a DMM is similar to an analog meter where it could change depending on the range. But it seems to me that the DMM still has the advantage where it typically only has two or three values for you to keep track of, while an analog meter will have something different for each range, so typically twice or three times as many.So it's still a trivial task to set the range on your DMM and use a specific resistor in parallel to reach any desired value.

author: mojoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2024, 07:36:51 am
content: Sure, whatever. No point in continuing this.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2024, 10:26:13 am
content: Quote from: J-R on January 09, 2024, 09:01:12 pmA moving coil meter has a single value for all ranges, most often 50µA full scale.

author: Calaverasgrande
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2024, 06:01:16 pm
content: There are actually a couple different Keithley's that piqued my interest. Thats why I said 2000 series.They are all 20XX or 21XX.There is the model that is specialized for audio measurements like THD. It may be fiddly but it would be better than using my computer to do FFT or buying a more sophisticated oscope that does FFT.And there is one, 2110 I think, that does capacitance.I got stuck on Keithley because some audio tech youtuber sang their praises, then I think I watched one of Dave's vids where he went over one.I'm leaning toward the DE5000 for price, but if I'm honest I hate using handheld meters on my bench.I'd much rather something I can stack with my PS, function gen, scope etc.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2024, 07:11:48 pm
content: take an dedicated lcr meter DE-5000 or else, not from a handheld, nor a bench meter ...

author: ch_scr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 02:52:44 pm
content: Quote from: Calaverasgrande on January 10, 2024, 06:01:16 pmThe DE5000 is really a nice LCR meter for the price and being able to measure inductors as well, get's really handy. It can measure capacity/ESR in circuit. Beware with the K21xx meters, these are "rebadgers" of the Picotest M3500A / M3510A. Not bad meters per se, just sold too expensive just because of the logo...

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 10:51:17 pm
content: Sorry, not trying to make everyone mad about analog. I understand the meter movement itself is a fixed impedance, but what I mean is the overall unit's input impedance can vary depending on range, AC/DC. And I am fine with the argument that if a procedure is written for a specific VOM/VTVM/FETVM then by all means go ahead. And of course personal preference is also always a valid argument in my mind as well.The Keithley 2015THD is basically just the K2000 with the THD board added. It's been said by one of the designers that it was made for testing phones, not anything much better, like home audio gear. And its performance has been shown to be poor compared to other options.The "Keithley" 2110 is a somewhat interesting option and I've recommended it in the past for certain scenarios. I think the used prices can be reasonable for what you're getting. I picked one up a while back but quickly moved on due to the limited display capabilities and clunky user interface. So it is a tough sell in this context over something like the SDM3045X for regular, daily use where those negatives can become quite annoying.Despite the DE-5000 being a "handheld", typically this is not a problem since you don't need to use it constantly.

author: opabob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 12:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: mojoe on January 08, 2024, 09:46:31 amAnd speaking of old tube gear, what is a good tube tester for 70's era transmitting tubes?Thanks,

author: Roehrenonkel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 01:26:52 pm
content: Quote from: opabob on February 26, 2024, 12:36:06 pmHi opabob,i guess you'll have to build a jig for each type of tube.(If we are talking of VT4/211, 845...)Universal tube-testers can't provide the voltages and currents.Good luck

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 01:37:40 pm
content: I don't mind spending money on something that I will actually use a lot, and having a fancy piece of test equipment will make me more efficient at a task I do a lot, or where safety is concerned. Where I skimp and go cheap is on things that I just need once or twice here or there.In electronics you'll find there are often multiple ways to achieve the same goal. Sometimes you can just make your own device for a specific narrow task that does a good enough job as well. This way you can also learn a lot more.GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) is a trap, but it can be managed.I went down the metrology rabbit hole briefly and while it was tons of fun and I had a blast doing it. Chasing ppm low drift low noise really gets expensive both in terms of gear and time invested quickly.I guess this is true for anything. Any time you're trying to extend the envelope, the exponential diminishing returns kick in.I still love all the volt nuttery that goes on, but you can also look at it from the sidelines and follow it passively.We are so lucky to have all these awesome folks sharing their knowledge with us part timers and hobbyists.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 01:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on January 07, 2024, 11:06:12 pmI think I belong to a "more than good enough for the job" category between "bargain hunters" and "money no object".See my equipment list below.

author: emartine
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 05:15:24 pm
content: this is a really interesting project. how did it end up?how does the continuity buzzer operate? you have to set it up with the keypad or its always turned on?thanks