The best home automation systems - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: yameseo
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 12, 2020, 06:10:39 am
content: Hey everyone.I'm new to the forum but i've been doing some digging around as i'm building a new home and have been toying with the idea of home automation. It seems that there's plenty of IoT devices out there but i want something that is going to control everything and that itll be easy enough for my wife to play around with too.so far from my searching ive found a few systems that seem to be the go to when it comes to this. Crestron Control4 and Savant.However i have no idea of the pricing ranges for these systems and seems to be pretty expensive and no companies have really any pricing on their sites. a few google searches of some companies around me and ive found most install control4. Does anyone have experience with these companies ?www.control4.comor it looks like a company that installs the systemswww.smarthome-sydney.com.au

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2020, 11:06:33 am
content: I'm old skool and I'd avoid wireless, especially since you're building the house and adding wires now is trivial.It also depends on how exacting you are on the user interface.Most of these products allow customization to varying degrees.If you really want control maybe making your own is the solution.Some of the example screens I've seen are a bit pimitive to my taste.A cell phone screen with a single dimmer control.It seems that you'd spend most of your time navigating.Will you have solar power? Will that be integrated?I run my own Modbus on an RV. Everything is connected with 4 conductor "telephone" wire.That's 2 power, 2 RS485.You know, one philosophy is just to run CAT5 everywhere and figure it all out later.OTOH, if you end up using something that chains you've wasted a lot of wire and you have a rat's nest in the basement from all the home runs.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2020, 12:46:38 pm
content: What doyoumean by automation, what problem is it you're trying to solve?Or is it just something cool and nice to have? Nothing at all wrong with that BTW!I'm also a bit old school in that I don't really want some wireless system that is hard to debug and I certainly don't want to rely on thrid party "services" in the cloud etc, nor do I want something proprietary that I might not be able to get parts for 3 years from now, or some sort of central gateway thing that HAS to work in order for me turn on the light in the bathroom when I need to pee at 3.40 in the morning ;-) Or, for that matter, a smartphone app that the manufacturer decides to no longer support because they have a "new and improved" system on the market which they want you to upgrade to. YMMV of course.As for a DIY solution, as much fun as that might be to tinker with, think about this - it might come a time when you want to sell that house, having a lot custom DIY type automation stuff that only you know anything about might not be what a potential buyer wants.For the lights inmyhouse I use DALI.It's standard, products available from many suppliers and any remotely "modern" electrican should know the basics. And as far user interface goes there are switches on the wall - as most people would expect. I have a RaspberryPi with which I can control the DALI bus, all it's currently doing is turn on the outside lights at the time of sunset - something you really DON'T need a multicore CPU running at a GHz or whatever to do but hey :-) If my WiFi dies everything still works, if my internet connection dies everything still works, if the Pi dies the lights won't come on (or turn off) automatically but I can still turn on and off every light in the house.The only real weak spot is the DALI bus power supply. If that dies the bus no longer works.I guess IMHO the bottom line is this: Build a system that just works - THEN add automation and whatever fun and cool stuff on top. You don't want to have to explain to your family members how to restart the "home automation hub/gateway/central/whatever" in order for the lights in the kitchen to turn on when they flip the switch on the wall.Enough ranting from me :-)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2020, 01:05:14 pm
content: Go with an open source system like OpenHAB, no cloud dependency or vendor lock in there.

author: jmibk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2020, 01:26:14 pm
content: I run my home completely with openHab and it works great.

author: Fredderic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 08:49:14 am
content: On the software side, no one ever seems to mention Home Assistant — a very much "batteries included" home automation package.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 09:58:43 am
content: stay away from "cloud-based" systems

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 04:36:53 pm
content: If you're building a new house, the best home automation system are empty plastic pipes going everywhere.Plastic pipes are cheap, are not that much trouble to put into walls during a new build, and you can put whatever wiring into them that your system requires.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 05:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 13, 2020, 04:36:53 pmUse conduit rather than pipe. The difference is that conduit bends are more gradual, making it a lot easier to pull wires through them.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 05:22:54 pm
content: Whatever framework you use to automate things, and there are many open source ones, that still leaves open the question of what to use for electronic switches, dimmers etc.Insteon, x10, UPB, Ethernet with Unifi, RS485? (The last one seems mainly used for DIN mount, not wall mount.)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 05:32:37 pm
content: Don't forget good old contact closure and PWM for wired and Wifi for wireless. In new construction, maybe use 48V for all permanently installed lights so that they won't be bound by UL regulations that apply to mains connected devices.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 05:35:01 pm
content: Quoteyou've already got the simplest solution,the wife.Just ring her up and ask her to open the garage,turn on the outside light,put the kettle on etc.if you program it correct it will even pour your beer ready for your arrival home,not many other systems are able to do that.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 07:45:14 pm
content: Welcome aboard!Quote from: yameseo on September 12, 2020, 06:10:39 amPlease understand my point of view here as I may come off sounding negative, but I've never understood the point in these systems. Much of the IoT world seems like people trying to hype stuff nobody needs to garner enough sales to pay for the yacht they have on mortgage. That isn't the whole IoT world but it is largely a marketing effort to convince people to splurge.QuoteNever heard of any of those. I did take a quick look at the Control4 web sight and frankly would never do business with somebody that has such a crappy web site!!!!!QuoteNope to the experience question. As to the pricing of these systems I'm not surprised at all as the goal here isn't to enable a new way of living for you but to enable a lavish lifestyle for the company owners. Frankly the lack of pricing or even a store for DIY should signal to you that these are not people to do business with. If your home automation solution isn't available at the local home center or suppler to contractors then what is the point? Clearly they want to force you to work through their channels and frankly lock you in.QuoteHonestly you need to consider what you want to accomplish here with respect to home automation. Further will your wife even care?By the way if you are building a home the people already pointing out that this is the time to install infrastructure are absolutely right. You will want to have every single room wired for networking / cable TV for example. Also the use of conduit, in compliance with local electrical codes, is also highly advised as it makes retro fitting for new tech much easier. Frankly an entirely separate system of conduit to support a security system is in order also. It makes a lot of sense to me to keep a security system independent of any home automation system.In the end though I don't see what one can get out of a home automation system that makes the expense of these commercial systems worthwhile. I have this feeling that most systems barely get used after the novelty wears off. If you are on the eevblog I would look for instead DIY solutions that meet specific needs.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 09:25:57 pm
content: I'm building something similar and have been very adamant about the control environment being open source at the very least, or DIY. Proprietary and closed source systems are a big turn off.Be mindful of feature creep. What do you really need to automate? The concept isn't inherently gimmicky, but has the potential to become a novelty very quickly. At least for me, the most important features are (from most to least important): analogue dimming capability, motion sensor integration, night light facility, scheduled triggers for turning lights on.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 10:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on September 13, 2020, 07:45:14 pmSeparate controller, definitely. Completely independent, no. It does not make sense to duplicate sensors for the automation system. What can make sense is to have a one way UART link if you question the security of the automation system - it can get status data from the security system but it cannot send anything to the security system.

author: electrolust
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2020, 11:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: yameseo on September 12, 2020, 06:10:39 amWrong forum. You want an end-user home automation forum. I'd actually go to an AVS forum because the home automation forums focus on DIY.But to answer your question, if you want the best it's actually easy as this narrows down the choices quite significantly.Lutron for lighting, shades, HVAC, and alarm integration (for presence detection).Crestron/Savant for the rest.Expect to be into six figures $USD for a solution. These have no prices because they are complex installations that require an integrator, to ensure you get a high quality, tested, properly designed system. These companies do not want DIY folks complaining due to their own mistakes and giving a bad name to their products. As installation costs dominate the total cost, it doesn't even make sense to quote prices online anyway.You need to design the lighting now before wiring goes in, because you will limit your control choices otherwise.Avoid cloud solutions like the plague, as others have said. Just don't do it. However, you do need to have a way to backup your configurations. Some cloud solutions are only for a backup, even if not presented that way. Good luck determining that. Since you'll need to work with an integrator for this high end of a solution, they can sort you out.Of course there are a few things that you can't get away from the cloud if you want to automate that and have central control. eg if you want to use voice control to change the TV channel or select a song to play. Be aware that the provider now knows your listening and watching habits and therefore so does the government.Avoid Sonos like the plague. Get an airplay2 solution instead. I like Yamaha.Also, avoid consumer focused smart locks. Utter garbage, all of them. If you want automated entry, go with a commercial solution like HID. You'll need a separate integrator for that. Expect to pay big, big money because it's not worth their time to deal with a single home installation. And do not bother to inquire directly. They do not want to deal with end users. Have your GC do the leg work.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2020, 12:15:50 am
content: Quote from: electrolust on September 13, 2020, 11:12:08 pmNo argument here, Lutron is good.If I were doing a conference room, they'd be my pick.Still, try specing a window shade here, it will give you a price online.https://www.serenashades.com/I just speced a window shade for $500, nope.On the subject of whether home automation is useful.I'm coming from a different direction.My RV system keeps track of battery, solar, HVAC, tanks, propane, tilt, GPS, security.My lights are not automated, I just reach up and turn them on.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2020, 12:22:09 am
content: Quote from: electrolust on September 13, 2020, 11:12:08 pmhttps://mycroft.ai/I think the theme is clear: For home automation, open source solves a lot of problems.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2020, 12:24:58 am
content: Quote from: electrolust on September 13, 2020, 11:12:08 pmPlease be so kind as to keep conspiracy nonsense out of technical discussions.Yes, there are privacy concerns - no, your government is not going around building a detailed database on every one of your 330 million boring inhabitants television interests.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2020, 03:00:56 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 14, 2020, 12:24:58 amActually that depends upon where you live. Further they don't need a detailed database, they just need a warrant.

author: electrolust
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2020, 03:19:46 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 14, 2020, 12:22:09 amFirst I've heard of it. "Mycroft is private by default. We promise to never sell your data or give you advertisements on our technology." To me, that means the data goes to the cloud for processing. Nope. It took a long time for me to find a single sentence that says it runs on prem. I suspect that's not the default, and running it that way is deficient. Anyway, it sounds promising and I will enjoy looking into it.

author: electrolust
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2020, 03:25:27 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 14, 2020, 12:24:58 amOP is from Australia apparently (an ECHELON partner).But since you refer to USA, have you not kept up with the past 10 years of news? The USA regularly and continually spies on its citizens. The government doesn't need to build a detailed database -- the providers have it for them! And continually fulfill requests for data. ISPs are required to have support for "lawful intercept". The government is repeatedly caught with their hand in the cookie jar -- and why not since there have never been any repercussions.Your comment about it being boring is overly dismissive. Of course no one cares who knows what worthless mindrot drivel you are watching. Seriously, whatever! That's not the point, at all.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2020, 04:05:23 am
content: Quote from: electrolust on September 14, 2020, 03:19:46 amAll of the source code is available for inspection.https://github.com/MycroftAI

author: yameseo
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 06, 2020, 10:21:55 am
content: Holy S**ta little overwhelmed with all of the feedback and ideas you guys have given. Took a little while to read through and actually was not expecting such detail so thanks everyone for the feedback.So after reading this and chatting with a few companies about reliability on the lighting side it looks like ill be getting aDynalite lighting systemusing Dali lights (Thanks @ H.O) for your input on this one. This does not make 100% sense to be but i have been assured it is a really reliable lighting system. All of it is hardwired so it cant get interference with wifi etc.Not sure if its available all over the world but from what i have read it seems pretty good. I know its not something i can completely DIY it but if i ever sell i think it might be a little hard when i have connected the system myself.Its not cheap so its going to be a work in progress but the main thing is the lights will be all connected and then i can continue on and end up doing my own part along the way.Now to really dig in and find something to put on top of that so i can control every device.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2024, 08:53:41 am
content: The latest innovation is to use a laser pointer to shine at a light switch and a cat.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2024, 09:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 17, 2024, 08:53:41 amThe problem is when the cat doesn't work and you try opening it up to see what might be wrong inside it.