Is there an actual market for a low/mid price USA designed/supported PnP line? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 09:27:12 pm
content: Say you take a Chinese type built PnP machine like the HW-T8-80F, but have it run all USA designed electronics and software, supported and shipped from the USA, with machine prices being 3x-ish the cost of Chinese sourced machines. Is there a real, profitable market for that?From my experiences so far (hoping my recent order of the above mentioned PnP machines is better), the Chinese machines aren't terrible on the HW (at least they are usable), but the software is typically flaming hot garbage. Support is a non-starter.Sort of like Neoden USA, but not just resellers, actual designed/supported machines from the USA. Something designed for small-mid operations, not the big boys who buy brand new Samsung or Juki machines whenever needed.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 09:07:30 am
content: So you take the better end of the cheaper Chinese SMT machines, add in your shipping costs, feeders and spares you should probably have form the begging and you're at what $25k ? Triple that, you're at $75K, and now you are terribly close to the promotional deal/price of select Hanwha or Panasonic bundles except instead of a miserable 64 feeder slots you get 120 to 160, genuine attainable higher speeds and a wealth of software driven features and options from placement rules, stock management to traceability and even built in inspection.If you look at cheaper smaller machines that are not ChineseYou have DDM Novastar, who have been making low end pick and places for years. GlobalItaly has TWS again globalGermany has Fritsch (certainly not cheap, but cheaper/smaller),Germany had Inotech Heeb - gonePoland has Mechatronika - Although they seem to have both rubbish software and be slow as hellThe UK has intelligentdrivesChinese Machines with Western involvement:Autotronik aka Manncorp (although long term support is apparently sketchy)SmallSMT - ish

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 09:23:48 am
content: Maybe there is a solution in the middle: Like they do with many lathes and mills, they are manufactured in china but inspected/improved/finessed in the US (Precision Matthews I think for example??)So you'd take a HW-T8-80F and improve the hardware (cabling is bad, some HW elements don't work well in cold temps,...etc).The software is not that bad but you'd have to make a 100% english version (their software still has chinese text) with better help and overall feel. And this is the tricky park as either you make one from scratch or the chinese let you modify their own which is probably not going to happen.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 10:25:54 am
content: Quote from: PartialDischarge on March 05, 2025, 09:23:48 amRead the datasheet for any proper SMT machine and its operating temperature window is quite narrow, temp extremes affect accuracy and dimensions beyond the compensation mechanisms built into the structure and the code. They line up with a comfortable working environment tho'.Rewiring is a big job, changing the electronics would be expensive, the servos and drive control systems in our Essemtec for example are clearly very sophisticated and expensive.If you were to take AOI and Printing, you will find a range of machines marketed under the name Prey. The AOI software is written/skinned/modified in the UK, pretty sure the physical platform is not (could be wrong), so some manufacturers clearly will work with Western partners without being owned by them. (Axxon mycronic being an example with ownership)

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 11:06:25 am
content: Out of curiosity, just how many of these systems (OpenPNP included) are using vision to simply measure a component using a detected outline? i.e they are not measuring or counting leads/balls to detect if they are missing or bent outside a certain tolerance?

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 10:08:06 pm
content: You would have to be offering something amazing to get 3x the cost price of a HWGC.They are super cheap machines for what you are getting already.Yes there are a few software bugs here and there. A few buttons don't have translations (they have worked on half of these in the past year).But to be honest, you turn the machine on, press go and they just work 99.8% of the time.If you are placing in very cold conditions, you are doing it wrong. I should know. I did so for a year when I first got my T6 in the potato shed that I was in doing my own stuff.Solder paste does not like non insulated, 2 inch gaps in the wall, potato sheds. Feels like I am in the Ritz now with my 100mm insulated floor, walls and ceiling new build shedThere are 2 custom boards in the machine. One does the XYZ movements, the other controls all the pneumatics.The steppers and drivers are pretty decent. I need to check my latest machine out but they have been good Chinese brands that you can get replacements of.The PC controller has 2-3 cards, of which one is serial for the 2 main boards and the other is an AHD camera capture card.Sadly, both of these look to be in house or not generic.The only things I can think of that I would want would be:Better digital fast cameras (not that much wrong with the AHD ones for what one is doing but visually would be nice to have higher accuracy and clear picture)Not having the software randomly start acting strange on that one day of the month where the moon is inline with MarsAutomate component size and tolerance settingsContinue on error and stop at end of program with the 1 or more faultsMotorized PCB rail (my new auto stencil printer has it and it is very nice). All they need is 1 sensor to home the rail to do this...Offline programming with the ability to automate splitting the jobs between machines.It takes me probably 10 mins to load a program into the machines, physically load a panel and locate it, and then remove what parts are on the other machine though. And you could easily do this offline with some custom script to edit the PnP file. I might actually work on that this weekend, can do it in browser...As SMTech said, the Prey By Detech AOI machine is a great example of when to do this sort of thing.The Chinese software for the cheap AOIs is total trash. Most of them use a cracked copy of ALeader's AOI software from 10 years ago and they use cheaper hardware which makes some options on the AOI not work such as the colour calibration.The HWGC software is not bad, so there is really no interest in replacing it.