Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:14:05 pm
content: Hi, I'm Dan, an American. I'm no great engineer, but I'm one heck of a planner and people organizer. I've been involved in Emergency Medicine for 19 years as an Army 68 Whiskey, Tactical Medic/TC3, EMT-Advanced; 3 years serving and leading in combat (I also have an Anesthetist who can advise on ventilator technicals). I don't have the skill to build a ventilator by myself, none of us do. But this eevBlog community does. Personally, I like great challenges, hard work, and the Apollo 13 story gives me wood.Engineering wood.The situation:1st World countries like the US, Australia, the UK, France, Germany, etc are probably going to be OK on ventilators. However, the developing world, India, Brazil, etc, could see severe shortages, and utter devastation.I've searched hi and lo, looking for a ventilator project that has promise, but I haven't found anything that goes past raw concepts, or idealism w/o necessary skill. I can promise you there will be none of that here -- we'll hit of our marks.If you're interested in this undertaking, vote in the poll -- it's an aggressive project for strong-spirited individuals, it's not for everyone, even though everyone can contribute. I've set a time limit of 24 hours on the poll, feel free to comment below with your hard technical skills and an intro. If 20 people join, we'll quickly form the steering and planning committees and move forward with answering the first critical question:Does a fully operational open source ventilator already exist w/ a suitable BOM for the developing world?motivation here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6F6MzMT2g8

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:45:05 pm
content: About me: I served a few tours in combat in Iraq, after that I went to a large state university where I graduated first in my class academically with a 4.0 GPA in Comp Sci. I'm not an engineer by trade.I fairly rate myself on the following skills:Wheatstone bridge/pressure sensors: 3/5small signal amplification, instrumentation amplifiers: 3/5ADCs: 2/5microcontrollers, Arduino IDE: 2/5Power supply design: 2/5CAD: 2/5

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:29:09 pm
content: Not yet another bloody ventilator related post?!I can’t get my breath.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 01:31:16 am
content: Please no.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:08:27 am
content: Interestingly I got a PM to my above post that read in part: “Hi Arthur. I'd like to ask you to remove your post. It serves no positive purpose, and purposely sets a negative tone against a charitable purpose.”After a moment of thought I’ve decided not to remove my proper response and I will go further in explaining my reply. You just don’t wake up one day and say: “I think I’ll build an extremely complex and expensive piece of equipment called a ventilator.” While your intentions may be laudable if you don’t have the knowledge to carry out such an extreme undertaking and you’re trying to get volunteers on an internet forum (no matter how talented they may be) to join you in this quest, you just shouldn’t do it. If you can use your skills as “one heck of a planner and organizer” to eventually gain the knowledge, get some really talented professionals in the field, and get some financial backers with lots of cash, you won’t need to ask us for support. What will be telling is if you can write up a proposal that can persuade engineers and big finance professionals to join and support you-that would mean something, but you are far from that point. So my reply is still, respectfully, “please no.”

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:42:18 am
content: Arthur, your lack of self-esteem is showing big.There's a human tragedy unfolding, and some people want to do something about it.The people who've upvoted this project don't have time for you to waste by clogging the thread.Be gone. I'm sure you've heard this before.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:42:54 am
content: The vote options you give both imply "Yes" to the poll question "I want to join the steering committee".

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:46:59 am
content: Optimal choice architecture, no?What other options should I add, Bud? Always open to good jokes or positive suggestions.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:49:03 am
content: Know what, I am not really surprised given your military background. You did not expect anything less than "Yes Sir!"

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:51:36 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 03:42:18 amYet another attempt from scratch is not what is needed or what will be of use in the next two to three weeks! If you want to help then you are a month+ late and if you have time skills and energy then offer what you have to an existing project.It is YOU who is wasting time on attempting to create this and you who is clogging this sites bandwidth doing it.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:55:06 am
content: Bean, does that mean you're volunteering to help?If not, you're just wasting your breath. True story friend.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:57:15 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 03:55:06 amAs you appear to be a pompous prick intent on controlling this thread you are wasting yours. Take your Ego and time and place it where you will do some good.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:59:00 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 31, 2020, 03:49:03 amI was a Sergeant, not a "Sir" lol. As the saying goes "I work for a living".I get the feeling that by kicking around here you want to throw in. What sort of technical background do you have, if you don't mind me asking?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:01:00 am
content: Instead of countering every rejections, your energy better spent on by adding the "NO" as other option.PS : This it self shows you're not really good at "organizing" bunch of people.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:07:20 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 31, 2020, 03:57:15 amI've been called worse.You're doing this project a great service; the more you talk, the more people see the thread and vote to join. Since you commented, 3 new people.Can you continue? You'd be doing this project a great help.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:25:04 am
content: Quote from: ArthurDent on March 31, 2020, 03:08:27 amI'll have to side with Authur on this one.Whilst the intent is laudable, what is there to show other than enthusiasm and a poll to join a "steering committee"?QuoteYou haven't even hit your first mark yet which would be some sort of concept, drawings, proposal etc.Perhaps you can at least start by explaining why none of the other projects you have looked at have "promise", because from what I have seen they are far more advanced than your post and poll on a forum.The thing is, you have asked a forum full of engineers to get involved in designing something complex without offering any starting platform. You can't expect engineers to shout woo-hoo!, lets do this!, we are more pragmatic than that.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:37:15 am
content: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/tech/mercedes-f1-breathing-aid-coronavirus/index.html?utm_term=link&utm_source=fbCNN&utm_medium=social&utm_content=2020-03-30T11%3A00%3A06&fbclid=IwAR3obrKqZy5SP07C9EtBJpDTSd2U69xp_LydP7ngI870bLrkgAoGgPs9WPQ

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:52:53 am
content: Hey Dave!So, you're in mate or do I have to do some convincing? lolLet's size it up for what it is; the developing World might be in deep, deep crap in the next few weeks. Sadly, and there's nothing they can do about it but get punched in the face.There may be a better project out there as you said; I proposed in OP (bolded text) that be the first task to determine. And if there is a working project, let's bring it to light, and perhaps we can help them adopt the BOM for improvisation in the developing World. Then call it a day.But if your experience down there is anything like mine, there's 10 projects a day being touted by media, but when I chase them down, they're not much more than napkin sketches (here's one:https://www.news4jax.com/health/2020/03/30/uf-researchers-develop-low-cost-open-source-ventilator/). You've got a stellar eye for quality-- if any of the projects you've seen are "the one", please share.But if they were, we wouldn't be having this conversation, right? Think about it.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:56:26 am
content: This opportunity might not come again. An opportunity to literally, *literally* save lives.And I'll close with this; the community you've built is the only distributed community in the world that has the resources to do this moonshot. No one's ever done this before. Would you like to be the first?-Dan

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:10:35 am
content: Quote from: ArthurDent on March 31, 2020, 04:37:15 amCan you run that one down Art?- Do they have a Github to evaluate?- Is there a BOM?- What's your judgement of it?Thanks.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:21:15 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 04:52:53 amSure, as a starting point why don't you start listing projects, and as I said explain why you think they don't have "promise".You can edit your first post in this thread with a list of projects.That's what a "planner and people organizer" doesQuoteI know nothing about ventilators or the mechanics or the fluid dynamics etc involved, no point asking me.QuoteYou are the one who has claimed they don't have promise, please explain why they don't.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:23:54 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 05:10:35 amI don't think that project is designed to be open or collaborative outside of the partners.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:26:48 am
content: Open-source hardware projects largely fail. They just don't work out I find, because the requirements, scope of work are never nailed down and the community is full of people wanting more features until the project is undoable. Trolls add the final death blow by derailing the thread into squabbling and fighting.OP has the positive energy on a project that is quite difficult because ventilators are "mission critical" and people die when they don't work, and think about why commercial units cost $10,000-$50,000. Yes there is major fat (pun intended) due to the medical industry's markup, but in reality these machines are complicated having a zillion parts. Look at the one Trump has GM/Ventec working in,it's a literal spaceship inside.TheMIT open-souce ventilator student project,I think is silly because it has so many CNC-machined bits and relies on compressing anAmbu bagwhich is intended for manual use. It would get cycled 22,000 times/day and I think it would fail due to fatigue and granny would die. It has no metering and seems to use a brushed motor, so mostly a mechanical design.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:32:46 am
content: Sweet Dave! It would certainly be one approach to create a rote list of all projects. Then discard them one by one.Imho, that would be a Pyrrhic approach; we could do that for the next 3-7 days, and there's a good chance we'd still be empty-handed. Technically, that search could go on continuously even after that, as new projects are touted in media.What I'd like to do is wait until there is ~20 upvotes. At that point, it's more likely that if someone has "hot lead" they cite it, rather than "proving a negative". The people in this community have a nose for what'll work.Sound good?

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:36:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2020, 05:21:15 amAgree.Here's the Github for the project University of Florida Medical School Project I linked before. I read the files, not much more than a theory of operation. No BOM.https://github.com/CSSALTlab/Open_Source_Ventilator

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:46:19 am
content: Great post Flooby. I'm Dan, it's a pleasure to meet you. Someone who has seen other projects fail is absolutely a guy to have around. Especially if they're Canadian.I figure it like this; worst case I learn a ton about something outside my current scope. Which is why I'm drawn to the hobby anyways. Best case? Well best case we make the damn thing. Either way, we win.You're right, a CNC project won't work.Do you mind if I ask you what technical specialties you have? Thanks mate.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:07:38 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 30, 2020, 10:45:05 pmAre you a Navy SEAL too by any chance?SorrySeriously though,Quote from: Enginerding on March 30, 2020, 10:14:05 pmStart with searching for "open source oscilloscope" around hereThose threads always go the same way.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:20:19 am
content: The poll is a joke, both answers are yes. This whole things is a joke. I don't want to descend into stereotypes but......

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:23:47 am
content: The poll is clearly a joke but I think OP is in it for real

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:34:40 am
content: To evaluate this we'll need a few each of volunteers who have specialization/experience with;- motor guys (brushless DC blower motors?)- display, human interface dudes.- power supply people- pressure sensors/wheatstone bridge types (I have experience here with IPB sensors)- instrumentation op-amp types- ADC guysTo name a few...what else?Anyone want to share their hard-earned knowledge?C'mon, I know you smart-asses can run circles around me. I have a MIS degree.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:40:51 am
content: someone that knows how a ventilator works?

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:43:08 am
content: maybe someone with a medical background? just sayin'

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:44:43 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 31, 2020, 06:40:51 amWould you like to join the steering committee?

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:49:48 am
content: Quote from: Daixiwen on March 31, 2020, 06:43:08 amDone; a hospital anesthetist contributing who uses ventilators everyday, as stated in OP, and I have 19 years of emergency medical experience. If we get down the progress road, I will be happy to bring in a colleague who's an emergency physician. Though, I think the anesthetist will satisfice for now.Would you like to join the steering committee?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:57:50 am
content: Sweet Dave! It would certainly be one approach to create a rote list of all projects. Then discard them one by one.I would hope that anyone with any capabilities that could help here would want to, at a minimum try and decide which existing project may be the most worthwhile and perhaps need those skills first, rather than sign up for the "from scratch" "moon-shot"Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 05:32:46 amNope, 20 "upvotes" means nothing. You have no idea of the capabilities of the 20 people who have "signed up", let alone assessing they are for real.Wouldn't want to spend the next 3-7 days doing that and then come up empty handed... Technically, that search could go on continuously even after that, as new people come on board...Look, I don't want to be deliberately non-contributory here, nor disparage anyone's efforts, but I honestly can't help but find the approach you are taking here to be rather humorous.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:06:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2020, 06:57:50 amIncidentally, I plan on this project being this entertaining and humorous, always.My first intent, is of course to see if the community exists for the project.I'm a big believer in the Socratic method. How would you find volunteers for a project?-Dan

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:07:03 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 05:36:32 amOk. But at least I see spec documents for what seems like all the main modules, and some source code. Lats commit a weeks ago, so maybe they have more and just haven't checked it in yet because they too busy working on stuff?You'd have to check whatever chat/forum type system they are likely using to coordinate to get the latest stuff.At least they have something.Again, why does it not seem "promising"? they are more advanced than what you have. Is there something fundamentally wrong with their approach?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:14:03 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 07:06:46 amThere are three ways to find and woo technical talent:1) Money2) Come up with a cool concept and base platform that people want to work on. And no, an open source ventilator to save the world idea is not enough, as there are a dozen other people competing for the same talent. So you need to show up-front that have something tangible and you know what you are doing. A boast about being a great organiser is not enough.3) They want to work with other talent. This is how big startups with even dumb ideas like uBeam get world class people to work for them. Talent comes because they want to work with other talent. It's kinda a chicken and egg thing though.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:16:25 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 06:44:43 amI suspect he can't, he's too busy perfecting his sarcasm generator.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:18:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2020, 07:07:03 amThis is their forum.https://simulation.health.ufl.edu/forums/forum/open-source-ventilator-project/Fewer unique posts than this thread. It's marketing wank. Maybe this is a uniquely American thing, but in the US universities do projects like this to generate media, not for completion.Also, I've proposed the first step be to identify existing projects. As you can see, it's quite arduous and no single person could effectively do it. Hence, community.-Dan

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:21:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2020, 07:16:25 amHonestly not sarcasm. I'm Autistic, so I speak in a very straightforward way.I think Simon would be a great asset, which is why I think he'd be great on the steering committee.-Dan

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:22:25 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 06:34:40 amSome who actually knows about ventilator design in detail. Not just using them, not just a doctor, not just an emergency specialist, but an actual designer who knows the intricate detail of existing commercial ventilator designs and can replicate it. Probably people from a CPAP background at least.If you don't have that expertise, even with the best mechanical and product design people in the world, it's a no-go.Unless of course you want to be one of the other many DIY kludge projects. But hey, to be fair, a good DIY kludge project might help some people if done right. But you also have to be sure it's not going to kill people.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:23:51 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 07:18:11 amOk, tick (or cross). Next.Go through the list, it's not going to take a week. Perhaps you'll luck upon one that is doing well?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:25:29 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 07:21:24 amIt was sarcasm from Simon, because it was obvious to everyone that such a team needed someone first and foremost someone who knows how to design a working and effective and safe ventilator.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:26:36 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 06:49:48 amI was more thinking about someone having design experience in medical equipment. Electronics need to be a bit more robust than the usual, and some suppliers don't even want to sell components for medical use.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:30:53 am
content: I have to get a few hours sleep, since it's very late here in the US.Dave and Simon, chew on it --When might be the next time you work on a project that saves the lives of 20,000 people?Maybe 50,000!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 07:39:29 am
content: Someone just email me this:https://www.facebook.com/pg/VentilAid-113367330296374/posts/

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:10:35 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 07:21:24 amI was the one being sarcastic. Autism and organizing people do not go together, i know that being on the spectrum as well. I am afraid I have nothing to offer, but it seems you are trying to collect a list of people that know about components before you have made a list of what you need which starts right at the top with people that understand how these things are supposed to work as they have to interact with the human body and someone that knows how these things need making safe. No point in a life saving device that fails whilst saving someones life.In the UK they have 2 approaches, one more stupid than the other because they wanted to play politics over brexit and refused to join the EU procurement effort. One group are turning any available manufacturing to making parts for an existing design whilst the governing parties best mate wanker Dyson is teamed up with a medical company to design one from scratch. Of course the misleading headlines are that Dyson is saving the country by "just making ventilators instead of overpriced fans" no mention of the medical know how he has had to bring in.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:37:41 am
content: Please excuse my ignorance- how are you going to certify and get your ventilators on the hospital floor? They are life saving devices, for which i imagine a procedure or two exist to make that happen.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:59:19 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 05:46:19 amI'm one of the old dogs that hang out here. Engineer for 26 years and electronics tech for 10 years before that, in a dozen different industries doing product development. The only biomedical work was controlling artificial limbs for amputees and War Amps, and R&D with doctors on FES for paraplegics.I keep trying to see if the project is feasible. No amount of good intentions can ensure project success. Why is everyone reinventing the wheel because there is a shortage of the usual wheel?GM has almost 60 people alone just doing parts procurement for that Ventec ventilatorI can't see a community building anything that a hospital would let in their doors - the liability for something that is not to medical standards is just too much. I'm not sure when the possibility of death outweighs that.In a magical unicorn world, you could walk in to Home Depot and pick up all the parts to make a ventilator. That would be an interesting experiment.Number one is the air pump - what is to be used? Compressed air source, bellows, turbine fan. Are these parts off the shelf or from the Unicorn Supply Co. ?The blower in CPAP machines is high performance. Two-stage turbine and high speed maybe 30k RPM brushless motor. I have pictures and a typical patent isUS20190334418A1,but I think a decent turbine that could be 3D printed and not fly to pieces would be impossible to make. Have to hack a Dyson although they are yet another company on the 'make a ventilator' bandwagon. They can't do it- the medical standards, safety requirements and liability are all foreign to Dyson. A vacuum cleaner that can kill. No nooby companies are going to step into this, despite the fame and glory.There are many ventilator/cpap patents that briefly explain what a ventilator does.US8051852B2

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:35:16 am
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 07:30:53 amYou didn't seem to comprehend my list of things that entice an engineer to work on a project. I don't recall guilt tripping calls to glory as one of them.There is a reason why no one on one of the worlds largest engineering forums is jumping out of their chair to help you, I'll let you figure out what that is.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:53:15 am
content: Micronell make blowers for medical equipment. 47'000 rpm 13.5kpa and 50m3, but that is some pressure that you do not want delivered the wrong way.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 12:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 06:49:48 amJust because you can drive a car (something not proven) doesn't mean you're qualified to build 50,000 cars.It is so nice that you've started posting here to enlighten us on how qualified you are to create this huge project and give us an opportunity to contribute to a small part of it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:08:54 pm
content: you should concern about your own people first, you are the number one in the list now doubled from China and soon doubled from Italy. you should gather people around you, make a quick solution and post it OSHW here if you like. developing world will not have the skill to build your BOM anyway, and the way you organized this thread it looks like it will never come anytime soon. even if we have to face the hardest time, there will be some locals like me and some others will go to the front line doing volunteer works. i can see some of our locals community developed 3d printed full face mask in facebook thats a good thing.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:23:42 pm
content: The number of people onboard with this project is up to 6! Double what it was a few hours ago. Smashing success so far🎉🎉, and growing!Simon and Flooby; you're the future head sexy motors guys. And Flooby, you're great -- I sent you a PM about how great you are.It's super-temping in a sprint to jump forward onto appealing items. All things in due course.As of now, I politely ask that we enforce discipline and dialogue on the critical path question:Does a fully operational open source ventilator already exist w/ a suitable BOM for the developing world?In the developing world, this will mean some parts of the BOM being adapted from off-the-shelf items, as some have pointed out.Also; how does everyone feel about t-shirts when this is over?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:38:37 pm
content: The "most promising" way to get more ventilators is probably to focus on increasing the manufacturing volume of an existing, proven design.This is really a manufacturing challenge more than a design challenge...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 31, 2020, 02:38:37 pmWhich is why the UK government are playing brexit politicians with their biggest donor and the biggest wanker inventor dyson. All he has to do is build to print, but they are making a political statement.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:28:04 pm
content: "Sprint Day 1"Do I smell agile scrum bullshit here?

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:51:10 pm
content: Enginerding, you're absolutely deluded. Say I'm the best design engineer in the world and have been designing ventilators for 20 years. Let's also say I come up with a working, flawless design in two weeks from now, or let's even pretend I've got one already. I did it just now.Who's going to make it, who's going to pay for the prototype PCBs, the components, the tooling, who's going to make the tooling, who's going to use the tooling to make actual parts using injection moulding equipment, casting equipment, whatever? Who's testing the software? How are we going to qualify it? How long is this all going to take?You seem to be serious about this so you should already have answers to these questions. I can't wait to see the Gantt chart.Don't respond to me as if this is me indicating that I'm interested, with your wingnut "turn everything into a positive" project management bullshit either.I am not interested.Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 02:23:42 pmI think I was just a bit sick in my mouth.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:33:10 pm
content: Quote from: mc172 on March 31, 2020, 03:51:10 pmI absolutely agree with you.But just notice how those "open source ventilator" projects have become almost viral (no pun intended even)! It's like suddenly they are all over the place.I agree this is a completely deluded endeavor. If one such project ever succeeded to the point of being usable in a life-threatening context, by the time it did, the pandemic would be long over (at least I hope so, else the whole world is likely going to collapse.)I think if you absolutely want to contribute right now, there are myriads of other actions you can currently take that will be way more effective. Just MHO.

author: Enginerding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:48:45 pm
content: Thanks everyone!I'm going to close out Sprint Day 0. This was a great session, and I look forward to the next day, and the next challenge.Dan(admins, feel free to delete this thread, it's archived)

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:13:42 pm
content: How do you even source tens of thousands of any of the multiple of crucial components these days? Fans, pumps, valves, whatever? You won't find them in your local hardware store, certainly not in quantities needed. Best bet is to find dozens of "kind of similar" pieces, which makes it impossible to test for quality or even streamlining the manufacturing process. Half of the world is locked down, so forget about shipping from China.You end up with each batch being different than the last.Dave, you said in your recent video that this is primarily a mechanical device, and that is absolutely true. Electronics in this thing can be rudimentary and easily designed (if we knew what had to be done), but mechanical part? That would take a well equipped machine shop to make a prototype and a serious manufacturing facility to start actual production.But let's see whatwecan do.Electronics design - check, we can do it.This concludes our list of capabilities.Let's see what we can't do.Functional design (no one here knows what needs to be done. Ventilator designers and engineers have all long ago been poached by big players, rightly so)Electronics manufacturing (World trade is grinding to a halt, do we etch thousands of PCBs ourselves in basements, each with their own method with blank boards we have in our drawers)Manufacturing of mechanical parts (I have a lathe and a milling machine, possibly some of you guys too, but even if I could produce thousands of parts myself, I don't have nearly enough material laying around, and stores are closed due to the lockdown, furthermore I would never allow my piss-poor manufacturing to be the thread that someones life hangs on)Enclosure manufacturing (you can't have the mechanism just flapping around. It's safety hazard due both because you can't sanitize it and because you risk someone snagging a wire and shutting down the device)Logistics (if parts are produces in the basements of tens of us and we are spread around the globe, how do we assemble the ventilator?)Distribution (once we have a product, do we just drive up an ICU and give them a box and expect them to use it)Time (even with proper funding and human resources, this is a project that would take weeks just to get the right design, more weeks to set up production. Big players have been working on it for months, our efforts are way too little, way too late)I've seen comments along the lines, "if the decision is between DIY and death, anything is better then death". I would say that is wrong. If health services are supplied with a huge number of substandard devices, and they count on them to be used once the shit hits the fan, they will be inclined not to seek proper devices, and when these start to fail left and right, suddenly there is a problem.Let's leave this to people who know what they are doing.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:03:43 pm
content: Quote from: Enginerding on March 31, 2020, 04:48:45 pmNow he thinks he runs the site - once up it stays up mate.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:11:38 pm
content: Come on, he only said that he no longer cares about this thread because he is going to start a new one every day(now that could be a point for mods to hammer some minimum sanity into him)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:19:21 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 31, 2020, 06:03:43 pmHe already opened new topic as useless as this one, in which he straight out "rewrote" what happened here... According to what he wrote there, this topic was complete success, with massive support of members, including Dave himself....Sheesh, this is worse than Treez.....

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:31:33 pm
content: Another ventilator project. If you can't help with an existing one, create a new one!!! It's like programming languages now....Interestingly our local government have specifications for what is acceptable on ventilator designs:https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-ventilator-supply-specification/rapidly-manufactured-ventilator-system-specificationThis is a great one line:Every current ventilator used inside hospitals has a battery backup, so users will expect it to be there and will behave as if it is, for example, unplug it from the wall in order to rearrange cables or while manoeuvring the patient. However, this needs very careful thought to balance the risks. Including this in the spec means instantly trying to source 30,000 large, heavy batteries. Specifying a DC voltage (ie 12VDC) may well be the most sensible for the machine working voltage. Need the advice of an electronic engineer with military/resource limited experience before specifying anything here. It needs to be got right first time.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: magic on March 31, 2020, 06:11:38 pmWhy put a stop to a nice gradual release of hilarity?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:13:07 pm
content: How are open source projects like this, coping with the need/requirement to be safety critical ?Clearly, if the hardware was poorly designed and/or made out of flaky components (similarly if the software had any issues with it). The unit over an operational period of 12+ months, could inadvertently cause the patient(s) harm, affect other medical equipment, or injure someone cleaning inside the unit.My understanding is that it needs major work. To ensure that medical equipment meets the necessary standards of safety. Otherwise it is not allowed to be used.E.g. Would some quickly written arduino code, written by an amateur, using libraries they found on the internet somewhere, using some potentially flaky arduino clone. Reliably meet ALL the required specifications, for very long periods of time (12+ months), without ever "crashing". Which could cause (crashing) very sad outcomes as regards the patients.tl;drAlthough the proverb goes, 'Any port in a storm'. You don't want it to be a port in North Korea, if they blow your ship out of existence. There are good reasons, why medical devices, are usually considered safety critical.Analogy:A vaccine and/or cure, to the virus would be great. But, despite sadly, the huge number of deaths, which are already occurring, round the world. We are still being careful, that any new vaccines or cures, actually provide overall benefits to patients. Before rolling them out, on a big scale (bigger than the limited trials, already taking place).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:15:32 pm
content: No one other than the large companies hired to reproduce commercial ventilators appears to have any idea what "safety critical" systems entail at all.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 10:17:05 pm
content: Univ of Florida has their BOM up, except for the PEEP valve and if you watch the video that is a lab grade simulated lung. Looks like a science fair project but it sure seems to be working, and they have a background in RT and respirator design/test.Pvc pipe and sprinkler valve, but seems practical to build.Steve.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 02:35:56 am
content: https://opensourceventilator.ie/And someone has done the hard work for you comparing all the different projects and their status:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTYAfldxoIiO46VAWH1NlhrwFBn9mguqS2bh1spnLEu4AVVN1cj1vaEm6vOp5Z6UnaAbUwd8dslCXdM/pubhtml?urp=gmail_linkBut sure, hey, let's start another oneA developer form the above project shared this with me and commented: "If you like to learn more about open source ventilator projects, while 1001 project teams build 1001 ventilators, there is a also a test team in Texas who have created an overview of what as happening and it becomes clear that it's still a way to go for all until there will be a meaningful product"

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 03:51:26 pm
content: So, what about Apollo 13 anyway?

author: Blitzschnitzel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 06:57:14 pm
content: @all the criticsThe reason why ventilators are so sophisticated and complex is that they are designed for versatility. Forced ventilating a comatose or sedated patient is almost trivial. We have figured this out a long time ago. It gets tricky when you have advanced modes like assisted ventilating. A simple machine that squeezes one of those hand operated paramedic ventilators automatically can free up the professional machines for the more complex cases. Also, production isn't at all keeping up with demand. The reason medical professionals are reaching out to the maker community is that they would rather use a simple machine than having patient drown in their own fluids. Yes, in "peace times" a doctor wouldn't even fart in the direction of a homebrew device, but I am active in the opensourceventilator project and it has a surprising number of medical professionals active there.And if you think the designs worked on are all shite, join and do it better.

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 07:30:57 pm
content: Having worked in Formula 1 motorsport, where time and money are very loosly connected concepts, these ventilator projects are not being approached in the correct way.For example, the choice of any component is not "which part is best to use for an engineering perspective" ie the normal design and development methodlogy, but actually "how can i use that part that i already know there are 50,000 of sitting on a shelf that i can get delivered tomorrow"This is a very different challenge indeed! For a starter, until you know what parts ARE available you can't even start to chose between them. Realistically, to get any serious number of ventiliators built in an significantly short will take two things1) a massive "buying" excercise, something the average EE engineer at home is not going to be able to help with, but companies like Ford, Apple, Tesla etc all have huge departments of people who buy things in massive volumes for a liviing! Even so, realistically, major parts will have to be borrowed from existing product. ie if you can find a valve used on a Ford F-150, and make it work in a ventilator then you just might be able to get 50,000 of them tomorrow, or something out of a commerical product built in the 100,000's. Nothing else is going to cut the mustard2) Very large commercial companies to divert massive man power resource to the task. Hundreds, probably thousands of people all trying to source parts, and where it is unlikely any given machine will have the same part in it, simply because those parts dont' exist...The only way to make it work in the time frame required is to take an existing ventilator and ventilator manufacturer, strip it down, or use the BOM, form a large number of teams, and task each team with getting 50,000 of the individual part to which they are assigned ASAP, or finding another part that could replace it, of which they can get 50,000 of!

author: Blitzschnitzel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 08:33:56 pm
content: In the opensourceventilator project are several competing concepts right now. It is not all yet said that this design is going to be pursued but if you look at this feedback thread:https://gitlab.com/open-source-ventilator/OpenLung/-/issues/135All parts either easy to stamp or source in the millions. The bottleneck would be the hand operated paramedic ventilator.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 11:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: Blitzschnitzel on April 01, 2020, 06:57:14 pmThanks, that makes sense.I much better understand what is going on with those ventilator projects, now.So, make DIY/Homebrew ventilators, quickly, so some/all will be ready to use, in coming weeks. Even if they are not perfect/brilliant.Rather than making something better/professional, but it may not be ready, until after the worst/big parts of the virus outbreak (too late!).tl;drMake it quick, or the peak of the "virus battle" (overloading hospitals) will be over.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 12:25:03 am
content: Is there a reason that mechanical ventilation is the first resort for advanced pneumonia and not, say, draining the fluid that is causing them difficulty breathing?

author: Blitzschnitzel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 01:09:36 am
content: Not a doctor but I think the fluid build-up and difficulty of breathing are both just symptoms of the original lung damage. Whatever is worse will be treated first. Off course at some point fluid also becomes the cause of the breathing problems

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 01:49:14 am
content: Quote from: helius on April 02, 2020, 12:25:03 amThe following is a simplified response:In most cases, the accumulation of fluid that builds up in the lung from severe pneumonia is in the tissue rather than in the space between the lung and inner chest wall. Think of it this way, rephrasing your question would be "how would one drain fluid from a wet rag using a needle?" The primary purpose of ventilation is respiratory support rather than to remove fluid from the lung. If a patient is having respiratory distress then it would be pertinent to provide a means of helping them breath before they tire out. It's concerning if a patient is breathing 40 breaths per minute. It's alarming if a patient was breathing that fast and then began to slow down as that would indicate impeding respiratory failure.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 01:52:27 am
content: Quote from: helius on April 02, 2020, 12:25:03 amhttps://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes--terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 04:00:25 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 31, 2020, 04:33:10 pmLike taking groceries to old people locked down in retirement villages.

author: HarryDoPECC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 04:01:11 am
content: The propublica link hints at a feature that is going to sink lots of the open source designs. COVID lung disease manifests partly by wet lungs that are hard to move - so need to push gas in and out, but mostly by gross impairment of diffusion of oxygen from gas to blood. It's maybe not that hard to lash up some motors and levers to squeeze a bag, but it turns out to be REALLY hard to deliver high partial pressures of oxygen into the lung.So a bag-squeezer is easy to design but not very much use. The useful /essential machine (hi O2) is really hard to design/make.That's why I think these amateur ventilator projects will deliver little benefit, even if they deliver a product.All should be starting with very clear target specs that include high enough fiO2. If that cannot be achieved then project may be diverting valuable resources.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 06:03:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 02, 2020, 04:00:25 am... while doing the best you can to avoid exposing them, i.e., paramount hand hygiene, disposable gloves while packaging the groceries, better-than-average DIY face masks (in case you are infected yet symptomless), and, avoiding the temptation of chatting with the elderly, just leaving the stuff on their door.And, don't forget younger people either. Organizing a mass delivery of basic foodstuff would reduce the number of people visiting stores, making it easier for those who do, maintain safe distance to each other, slowing down the infection chains.Yes, there are many things you can do.The ventilator issue is solved by people who do, and who know what to do, and how to do it; not by the eager but clueless management people who need to write on EEVblog forum about their project management plans. Note, the project timeline 2-3 weeks; it has to be a small but efficient team where everyone absolutely knows what they are doing. These teams are people who already know each other, and emerge automatically within the industry. The design work is all about manufacturability and BOM. 3D printing is not solving the issues, you can't print valves, connectors, hoses, pumps, etc.

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 07:29:34 am
content: I’m sorry guys, I really get wanting to help, but as engineers or aspiring so you need to get a grip on reality...The whole most open source ventilator projects are a very naive waste of time and resources at best, and an extremely disgusting way of getting publicity in a time of crisis at worstNobody here, (and in other projects as well) has any clue of the human anatomy, physiology and pathology to even start coming up with requirements that should stop you right there and then, you can’t just google for 5 minutes, copy some stuff from around the web and call it a day.Before even thinking about a design you should crucially not only be able to tell what the requirements are, but also explain why they were chosen (with simple equations, from first principles, not just hand waiving)The discussion now should not be about volts and bits but pascals and litres per minuteThen we go to the second major roadblock: productionLet’s suppose some sort of god hands you down the perfect ventilator design what do you do then? You just plonk it down on GitHub and then call it a day, hoping that someone will manufacture them?No you have to go into production, and here 2 problems arise first money, more specifically whose money pay for all of that and second you will now have to buy rognificant stocks of parts at very short notice, without any previous relationships with manufacturers (to which I say good luck with that)Lest but not least if the s***t hits the fan and your makeshift ventilator kills someone who’s getting charged with murder? As No amount of waivers, disclaimers and eulas are going to save you from that

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 07:40:57 am
content: Quote from: filssavi on April 02, 2020, 07:29:34 amThat part is surprisingly readily available:https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-ventilator-supply-specification/rapidly-manufactured-ventilator-system-specificationYou're right about the liability aspect, though. I've certainly never designed a device knowing very well that people using itwilldie. Not 'might' or 'could' if something goes catastrophically wrong, they absolutely, definitelywillwhether the machine works properly or not.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 07:49:32 am
content: It remains the issue that this discussion is now way to late, well before you get to competencies of any contributions toward a cobbled together project. And even if you get it together where do you source the bits in quantity in time without plundering existing manufacturers of known products? The time to look at this was when China first started to blow up.Applying our relevant skill sets or offering time (if you have it available) to existing providers/manufacturers or like the OP has some skills in the medical field then volunteering will have an immediate and positive effect.This circular discussion apart from being technically interesting will yield Nil products in the time frame now available -30->60 days

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 12:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 02, 2020, 07:40:57 amThis still qualifies as hand waiving, you are just parroting something you found online and I doubt you really understand itThe point is not the number in itself you (or better the project leaders, the ones who call the shots) have to explain why the number are those and not something else higher or lowerThis is important not for the numbers in themselves but to show that you really understand the consequences of your design choices and what implications they have on the person you are ventilatingAlso keep in ming that we often talk about peoples dying (I’m guilty of that myself in the previous post) but in case of a small malfunction the result might be worse, ventilation is extremely harsh on the lungs, so it stands to reason that in case of an out of spec ventilator the lungs might be damaged so that the person does not die, but needs respiratory support for the rest of their life significantly decreasing their quality of lifeThis might even go against their will (do not resuscitate etc), and and might open you and/or the hospital to extremely large damage claims

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 11:08:01 pm
content: It's a pointless project in the U.S. If it takes45-90 days to get N95 mask manufacturing approvedunder normal circumstances (unrestricted travel etc), then expect a year for a ventilator design and production under current circumstances (federal employees can't travel to inspect a facility without special dispensation for instance). There are plenty who are looking to manufacture ventilators, and your efforts would be better placed to lobby the White House to order regulatory agencies to adapt. Basically, they need to stop the academic wankery (if it's not perfect it's not good enough) and look at the best that can be accomplished given timeframes and resources, non-zero benefit (i.e. "something for nothing"), stacking lots of small odds in their favor, accept risk, and simply realize people are going to die no matter what already. Congress also needs to indemnify makers, otherwise a single defective unit will put them out of business, which is not conducive to making hundreds of thousands of anything as the defect ratewillbe non-zero. The regulatory agencies need to accept it's better for one person to be killed by defective equipment than a thousand to die from a complete lack. President Trump has shown willingness to accept responsibility and override agencies (he did so to start drug trials for example), and we already know what this will sound like when reported by the click-funded outrage industry (CNN et al). Such a manufacturing effort would make you a giant target and would probably both ruin you and land you in criminal court (the narrative will be you made shitty equipment to profit and your buddies in the White House helped you out) - although you'd likely be acquitted. Is it worth it to help people? Most of us would say no, it's just not worth the risk getting too close to any of it. Stick to lobbying (talk is still free).

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 11:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: trophosphere on April 02, 2020, 01:49:14 amThanks for the reply. I wasn't actually talking about aspirating the chest wall as in pneumothorax etc, but of non-invasive airway clearance techniques likethe ones taught to cystic fibrosis patients.I mention this because all reports I have heard from doctors facing this pandemic is that mechanical ventilation is particularly hard on the body, takes weeks to recover from, and isoften associated with comorbidities in older or weaker patients.

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 12:43:50 am
content: There are already safe ventilator designs. We do not need unproven , hacked together stuff. Introducing an Arduino controlled shitpile is a horrible idea .What is needed is to help the existing supply chain who can built qualified units. As we speak there are already qualified CM's building real units.Right now there is more of a shortage of people who can properly administer the vent. The are ancedotes of hospitals have to get gynocologists to do it.... The shortage of medical staff is real and they are burning out in critical regionsThe time is better spent educating people on how to slow the spread. There is already well proven tech in the pipeline and lots of people working the problem.

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 03:53:21 am
content: Quote from: helius on April 02, 2020, 11:45:19 pmIn cystic fibrosis, the problem is more so with mucus plugging in the airways whereas in pneumonia the main problem is that the alveoli (the tiny air sacs at the end of the respiratory tree) get filled with fluid (pus/exudate). Sure there is increased mucus production in pneumonia but the main contributor to the decrease in oxygenation is the decrease in area available for effective gas exchange.The main purpose of using a ventilator in a patient with pneumonia is to (1) provide sufficient respiratory support such that they do not tire out by decreasing the work of breathing with the added bonus of decreasing total metabolic demand, (2) increase effective gas exchange by keeping the alveoli open or opening of the alveoli through something called recruitment, and (3) ensure that their respiratory status is not compromised even if the patient is exhibiting a severe enough altered mental status that they are either unable to maintain their airway or are at high risk of aspiration.Being placed on a ventilator is hard on the body because often they are on the ventilator for a large number of days such that their respiratory muscles weaken. In addition, skeletal muscle elsewhere in the body weaken as well because they are essentially bed-bound due to often needing to be sedated as (I'm sure everyone agrees) having a tube down the trachea is quite unpleasant. That being said, there are people that are tied to ventilators for many years without the need for sedation because they have had a tracheostomy and a connection is made that way.Quote from: filssavi on April 02, 2020, 07:29:34 amI don't know about that. A few of us on the forum are actually practicing physicians. It's just that we don't see any convincing arguments yet to embark on creating something from scratch when the main problem (as far as I can see) is mainly manufacturing output. This would be the same train of thought as the current need for personal protective equipment and toilet paper(in the US at least). To put it in another way, the demand became so high in such a short amount of time that the current manufacturing setup is unable to keep up. Thus one would believe it would be more valuable and quicker to ramp up production vs creating something new, having to go through regulatory approval, and then having to address the aspect of mass production anyway.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 04:46:52 pm
content: Quote from: trophosphere on April 03, 2020, 03:53:21 amThis, in spades, as pretty much anyone with industrial/manufacturing experience would tell you.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 08:42:10 pm
content: Quote from: trophosphere on April 03, 2020, 03:53:21 amYes.The train of thought for them is not acompletefallacy, though. It has a few realistic, even remotely possible elements to hold the otherwise unrealistic story.There apparently are some short periods when there is a lack of ventilator equipment in some hardly hit areas, because it takes time to increase ventilator manufacturing. This is true. Now, the story goes like this: some super bright team of science nerds in their garage hack together an iffy-looking, but good-enoughthing, build a dozen of them, bring them to a hospital, and save a few dozen lives. (Add some dramatic music here.)This is like any fantasy, it has remote chances of happening, but the fallacy part is that every "open hardware" idiot is writing themselves in the lead role of that story. What they don't realize at all is that starting to build a bureaucratic community, from scratch, with all the broken telephone play with people they don't know on the interwebz, has already failed before it even started.They almost always realize they can't do it, or even a meaningful part of it. They don't realize that due to this, they are not needed, and that no one whocoulddo it, is unwilling to participate to their ego projects.If this fantasy were going to happen, it would be with a fewactuallybright guys and gals,who already freaking know what to do, to just start doing it, like immediately. No "project planning" needed.Open source or not, is acompletelyirrelevant aspect, as are the details whether the design uses Arduino or 3D printing, or not. Anyone who gets fixated to such details are automatically proven morons who can't understand much beyond buzzword and popularity contests. While important to some, they don't get the job done.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 11:08:14 pm
content: Entertaining threadWe don't have a ventilator design problem, i.e. we lack well-performing ventilator designs. We have a manufacturing output problem, i.e. we need more of these things. Who in their right mind thought the solution to the production problem was to design an entirely new unit? I know, it's largely about making a simpler design that can be cranked out, but all of the brain power being used on these projects would be better utilized solving the manufacturing problem, including alternate solutions at the component or subassembly level where availability constraints limit how many of an existing/proven design can be manufactured.There is massive, massive untapped (and currently un/under utilized) manufacturing capacity in this world that we could leverage to make ventilators, but we're going with the best ROI at the moment, using big manufacturers like the car companies to make proven designs.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 11:10:47 pm
content: OP, honestly, if you want to help, join an open source project, dont start a new one.Some people think that engineers are pessimistic, and downers. They bring negative energy, with sentences like " cant be done", "unrealistic expectations". The reality is, any engineer who has some experience, on each project see a thousand way a project can go wrong.And say, you want to design an open source ventilator. What are you going to do, start ordering all the parts for it? Like realistically, electronics parts have some 12 weeks leadtime. Say, you have the same leadtime for medical valves, pumps and so on.Are you going to order these parts?There are companies who actually know how to make this, waiting in line to assemble as many units as possible (and make as much profit as possible).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 05:20:28 am
content: What happened to our illustrious leader?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 06:14:47 am
content: Perhaps realized that should try to "organize steering and planning committees" and sharpen his leadership skills elsewhere.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 06:19:17 am
content: NANDBlog has hit the nail here,I believe there are really some teams (likely within the existing industry, or something close to it) that are truly solving this problem. They also depend on the usual distributors to get the parts they need; similarly how the healthcare authorities are trying to source the masks wherever they can.If 1000 different "open source" projects are bootstrapped, and 100 of them go far enough to start buying parts, it's possible this creates temporary shortages or delays the sourcing of the parts for those whoactuallyneed them - for those who otherwise are going to get the job done.Don't play with a serious matter.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 06:20:13 am
content: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1246279106351816704?s=20That's quite a piece of engineering."Bought, but SpaceX is spooling up to manufacture proportional solenoid valves for Medtronic (confirmed as critical today with chair & CEO)"So it takes even a huge company that is known for their tight cycles and rapid development some time to start making this. Also, it has to be made, a simple ping pong ball valve won't cut it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 10:28:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2020, 05:20:28 amIn my opinion, it's inconsiderate, somewhat rude and unprofessional. To just disappear like that.The polite thing to do, would be at least to come on here, and explain what has happened. Even if you are throwing in the towel, and have given up.I didn't want to put the following comment in, as I didn't want to negatively bias the thread.But I will now.I would have thought a person who is going to manage, something like this (apart from a forum, is probably NOT the right place anyway, it should really be a suitable pre-existing company or similar, such as a University, possibly).The person needs to already have some or all of:Medical knowledge (ideally Medical Electronics/Devices)Engineering (especially Mechanical and Electronic)Software (is a bonus)Ideally understanding of gases/air flow etc. (pneumatics)Management skills (ideally in a successful business environment)The list above, could easily be wrong and/or missing items. Even to make the above list correctly, needs knowledge, skills and experience.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 11:34:02 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on April 04, 2020, 10:28:29 amSeems he's abandoned this thread and gone over to another one.I think he had some grand vision of creating a new thread each day.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 12:34:12 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on April 04, 2020, 10:28:29 amIn this day and age, we have seen how you can become the leader of a modern country just by blowing enough hot air and having enough idiots believe in you.It was only a matter of time before the blowhards would try their skills in other disciplines than politics, given their obvious success there...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 12:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2020, 11:34:02 amI hope he won't mind me saying, he was still following this thread. Because he responded to me directly about it, via PM.But he apparently didn't respond within it (he should of), because (as you just said), he wanted to support the new thread(s).Even just the two active threads, is already causing confusion. As I probably should have posted in the other thread.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 12:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 04, 2020, 12:34:12 pmI think the real issue here, is that the world has just received a surprisemilitaryvirus attack, by an unknown enemy (we know it is a virus, of a defined type, but the exact/specific details of this variant, were originally unknown to us).It is (predicted), to potentially overwhelm ourmilitaryhospital defences.So, we are desperately trying to get as manysoldiersDoctors/Nurses and other medical people, and the equipment they need, such as hospitals (emergency ones being constructed), ventilators, face masks and all the other stuff they need.But there are practical limits, to how well we can cope with this sudden and ongoing, surprise attack(s).The reality of the situation, is that ventilators, is just one of the many things that we (Hospitals), need under these circumstances.tl;drI feel sorry for the OP. Because they are trying to do the right thing, and be nice. But, the reality is that it is difficult, to effectively interface with the proper authorities, and launch a coordinated response.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 01:02:58 pm
content: gosh why the need to necro obsoleted thread? i know feeding a troll is better than feeding a virus, but dont feed both will be much better. we are now onday 2 sprintor maybe day X (i dont count days in this covid holiday)... go continue there... imho this thread should be locked.