Fixed or Variable Speed Pool Pump? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 05:34:10 am
content: Finally got my pool circuit monitoring enabled.The pool pump takes twice the energy per day than my heat pump hot water tank.But I'm not convinced that a variable speed pump will make much energy difference overall. I'd just have to leave it on for a lot longer for a given volume/filter/chroine production. Convince me otherwise...Madimac claim you save up to 80% in running costs with a variable spped controller. Someone else in one of my video comments mentioned big savings, but I'm not convinced.It's not like the pump is magically more efficient, you are just reducing the speed/flow rate, so need longer to filter the same volume of water.Sure, maybe some increased efficiency in pipe fluid dynamic perhaps, but I'm not sold.Someone convince me....https://madimack.com/au/blog/madimack-inverter-plus-energy-saving-single-speed-pool-pump-controller

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 05:46:32 am
content: Pumps generally have an optimal efficiency at an optimal design point of flowrate and pressure (head). So the most efficient system will have a pump that is selected to be the right size for the duty required of it, and which turns on and off as needed.Most of the energy required by a pump is to move the required volume of liquid in the system against the elevation change and resistances in the pipework and filters etc. It is possible that a smaller pump running for longer periods at a lower flowrate will use less energy, but it is not possible to know how much less without a detailed hydraulic analysis.(All things being equal, a pump running twice as long at half the flowrate will consume the same amount of energy overall. All things are not equal in reality, but the differences may not be that much. It all depends...)If you have an existing pump and are considering replacing it, then you need to figure in the cost of replacement against any potential cost savings obtained.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 05:56:37 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 05:46:32 amExactly, which is why I'm skeptical of these blanket 80% reduction claims, and of people telling me to get a variable speed pump.QuoteIt's literally a brand new pump. I would not replace the pump of course, I'd get a variable speed controller for the existing one if I went that route.I do believe my current pump is fairly optimum for my head, pipework and volume.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:07:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 05:56:37 amA relatively low power fixed speed motor would typically be a single phase AC induction motor. Whereas for variable speed, you would more likely have a VFD and a three phase motor. Is it actually possible to retrofit a variable speed controller on a single phase motor?

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:18:56 am
content: Any machine has a sweet spot where its efficiency is at maximum. This electromechanical and hydrodynamic machine isn't an exception. Therefore if that pump controller finds the sweet spot automatically, it may work. But that 80% efficiency increase claim sounds like a BS for me. Yep, 'up to': maybe in case of their product was compared versus the very bad and dirty cheap water pump. But in common case, doubt it.Whatever it was, if the manufacturer is confident enough, I think he will not refuse to sponsor a video verifying his claims of effectiveness, providing a sample for independent testing by some of the most authoritative and recognizable people in the modern electronics world. If he will refuse, then we know the correct answer to the question of the topic. 😏

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:20:19 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 06:07:06 amMadimack sell them, and like I said, claim up to 80% power saving.https://madimack.com/au/blog/madimack-inverter-plus-energy-saving-single-speed-pool-pump-controllerThe link to their test report with UNSW has gone missing.I only found this:https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/energy-guzzling-pool-pumps-can-be-tamed-new-research

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:45:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 06:20:19 amOK, so that link claims "up to 80% energy and cost savings". That means a pump that was previously consuming 5 kWh per day (for example), would then be consuming 1 kWh per day (80% less). I call bullshit.If it were possible to do that, then it would mean that 80% of the power being consumed by the pump was being wasted to no good purpose. No competent designer would design a system with such a low efficiency, unless the energy costs were negligible and irrelevant, or the designer didn't care.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 06:54:59 am
content: I Assume the market for this is 2hp pumps that circulate water through the filter and an electric heater.Most pumps in hot tubs in the usa are two speed pumps, a small 4 pole winding with a separate run capacitor ans a large 2 pole winding with another cap.The 80% savings from cutting the rpm in half is legit, in theory you can run a pump at half speed on 1/7th the power.. The claims about real energy savings are dubious because the waste heat just heats the waterHalf speed at 1/8th the power means you cam move the same volume of water for 1/4the the cost. This is legit, its how friction works in fluids like fans and pumps, where the kinetic energy in the moving fluid is lost

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:03:26 am
content: Quote from: johansen on December 12, 2023, 06:54:59 amI'm sorry, but as a chemical engineer who knows something about pumps and hydraulics, I know of no such theory. If you could make such huge savings by running a pump slower, then there are lots of accountants who would like a word with you.The only scenario that makes sense is if the motor is originally vastly oversized and is simply wasting most of its power against a dead head. Is it possible that everyone installs a 2 hp pump even when only 0.5 hp is needed, because the 2 hp pump is a standard off-the-shelf item?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:18:44 am
content: To put this in perspective, let's suppose you need to move 10 m³ of water in 24 h. If you run at half the flowrate, then you will only move 5 m³ of water in the same 24 h period, and you won't have met the system requirements.On the other hand, suppose the pump is only running for 6 h every 24 h period, and off for the other 18 h. Then you could use a smaller pump and have it running for 12 h, or an even smaller pump and have it running continuously for 24 h. But in that case you could just specify and install a smaller pump in the first place. It makes no sense to install a bigger, oversized pump, and then install a variable speed controller to slow it down. The cost of the bigger pump and the speed controller is much more than just installing a right-sized pump in the first place.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:21:22 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 07:03:26 amThe 2hp 2 speed pool pumps need to be that big to run the jacuzzi jets.And yes, 1/2 speed is about 1/7th the mechanical power on a zero static head, centrifugal pump, which is what these systems are. The 2 feet the water has to be lifted is negligible.There are pump motors with separate windings for 2,4,6,8 poles. Geometrically the windings decrease in size and the 6 and 8 pole windings take up very little space in the 100hp sized motors and it takes a tiny fraction of the power to run the pumps at 1/4th full rpm. These centrifugal pumps circulate coolant through a certain 60 megawatt thing with control rods.You dont seem to be reasonable, so go argue with hazen-williams instead.https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/hazen-williams-water-d_797.htmlOr boat designers. You need around 8 times the hp to push a boat twice as fast

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:27:26 am
content: Quote from: johansen on December 12, 2023, 07:21:22 amSo we have here a pump that does dual duty? One is to run jacuzzi jets, where a high flowrate is needed (or the jacuzzi won't jacuze). And another is to circulate water through some system that needs a lower flowrate?This seems far from the situation described by Dave, which is a pool pump. No mention of a jacuzzi.

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:40:25 am
content: Quote from: johansen on December 12, 2023, 06:54:59 amThis statement sounds like an attempt to violate the law of conservation of energy. We know that the efficiency of a single-phase electric motor is approximately 60-70%, regardless of its RPM (as long as they are within the nominal range). Putting aside the effects of cavitation at higher flow/rotation speeds, according to your statements, the efficiency of the electric motor must double to provide enough torque at half speed to pump the same volume of water. And by the way, revolutions per minute don't have a linear relationship with the torque (useful work) of the electric motor, but the power consumption does. The only case where this would be possible is if the level of cavitation was absurdly high before at a higher flow, and the system throughput is prohibitively low for a given electric motor power. I don't think this has anything to do with the Dave's case, knowing how thoroughly he researches a matter before doing anything.Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 07:27:26 amBTW, Jacuzzi jets are an excellent example of an absurdly high level of cavitation by design. 🙂

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 07:50:40 am
content: Quote from: Alex Wolf on December 12, 2023, 07:40:25 amWell you can't get something for nothing of course, but it's not the motor but the pump. A centrifugal pump approximately follows power laws, where the flow is proportional to the speed, the head is proportional to the square of the speed, and the power consumed is proportional to the cube of the speed.That means that if you run a pump at half the speed, it will consume 1/8th of the power. It will also produce a quarter of the head and half the flow, which all fine and dandy, except that now you only have a quarter of the head and half the flow available. If your system design calls for all of the head and all of the flow, then your pump has just stopped doing its job.

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 08:06:27 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 07:50:40 amAt idle or under load? Still sounds like an oversight in calculations that try to violate the law of conservation of energy. If you produce the same amount of useful work with half the energy consumption, this can only mean doubling the efficiency and nothing else. Are centrifugal electric pumps so poorly designed that when their speed is halved, their efficiency doubles (leaving all other elements of the hydraulic system behind the scenes)?Edit: I mean that usually the nominal speed is designed to be as close to peak efficiency as possible. Doubling the efficiency by simply reducing the speed sounds very doubtful in the general case.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 08:20:05 am
content: Don't know about pool pumps exactly, but blanket claims about magically better efficiency might well be true. The problem isn't fixedness, it's usage of poor efficiency motor types. We saw this in hydronic heating loop circulation pumps: the older types consumed 70W at maximum speed, and the replacement variable frequency types (don't know if they are internally BLDC or what) consume like 20-25W at the same flow rate and pressure. The difference grows even bigger at reduced flow rates. The old type is simply a cost-optimized capacitor-run single phase AC induction motor with a lot of slip. It's same as with fan motors: a 10-15W BLDC "computer fan" produces same pressure / air flow as a 50W mains fan.To answer your question, you should not start from the specifications of the new variable speed pump, but instead try to find out what is the efficiency of your current fixed speed pump.Remember that in circulation systems the physical work to lift water is zero, and you can consider the whole power consumption as losses - friction and electric. Therefore, it is entirely possible, and not even difficult, to get to very low consumption. To me your numbers sound high. If the current pump is of inefficient type, replacing it would be the first step. The next step would be to reduce mechanical losses, probably by first increasing the filter area. If that is not sufficient, pipes can be replaced by larger diameter size.There is also synergy in doing these steps. Say, you decrease pressure drop of the filter by making it larger, halving mechanical losses. But the old fixed-speed pump has a narrow efficiency sweet spot, so power consumption does not drop to half. Add a VFD pump (and the point here is not the speed, it's the commutation strategy), and it will have much wider sweet operating region. It's like comparing switch mode supplies where one does have pulse skipping and other does not, in light load conditions.

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 09:37:58 am
content: The same thing as discussed above about the sweet spot, but clearly in the form of curves:Source 1:https://chemicalengineeringworld.com/pump-performance-curve/Source 2:https://hardhatengineer.com/centrifugal-pump-curves/So if the pump controller is smart enough and equipped with pressure and flow sensors, it can automatically peak the efficiency of the entire system. It is impossible to predict what specific gain in efficiency will be without knowing the parameters of the current system.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:19:47 am
content: In the circulating system the energy needed is for friction. Depending on th flow regime the needed pressure is linear (laminar flow) to quadratic (turbulent flow approximation) going up with the flow rate. So half the speed and 1/4 the energy would the upper limit.The other point is the efficiency of the pump. With a centrifugal pump the suitable pressure should go down quadratic with the speed and should thus reasonable match the turbulent flow case. The question is however if the motor allows for good control (e.g. switching the poles for 1/2 the speed). 1 phase induction motors are tricky to control.For dave it looks like the pump is already running quite long, much of the time that solar power is available. So there is not really an option to run longer and thus slower. It would be a thing only if not that much filtering is needed.For the circulating pumps in heating systems there is an additional effect from the motor: the old style fixed power pumps where rather low efficiency (e.g. 30% range) induction motors. Induction motors don't work well that at the small size (some 50 W) and with large slip they don't blow up even if blocked. The modern speed controlled pumps are usually BLDC motors with much better efficiency.With the pool pump the motor to start with should be quite a bit better.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:42:30 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on December 12, 2023, 10:19:47 am4hrs per day. I just lowered that to 3hrs.Correct, running longer outside of solar periods defeats the purpose unless we had battery storage.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:45:02 am
content: Quote from: Alex Wolf on December 12, 2023, 09:37:58 amMy pump maker only gives the Head graph.https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/astralpools-au-2/MEPS/AstralPool_Pumps_CTX_MKII_190922_(1).pdf

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:48:32 am
content: Quote from: Alex Wolf on December 12, 2023, 08:06:27 amThat's my question. Ultimately people are saying that a variable frequency pump is (say) 4 times more efficienct than a single speed pump for a given amount of useful work. I can't buy that at face value.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:50:48 am
content: Astral makes this claim for their variable speed pumps vs their fixed speed pump:https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/astralpools-au-2/MEPS/Viron_XT_MKII_Datasheet_190922_(1).pdfQuote

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 10:55:23 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 06:45:12 amNot so quick. I'm looking into upgrading the ventilation system in my home and I keep getting across the claim that using a 'DC' brushless motor is 80% more efficient compared to using an AC motor (for the same amount of airflow). Even on official government websites to help people save energy. I assume pool pumps have a power, pressure and flow rating. Comparing these, should give all the answers you need.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:07:18 am
content: My fixed speed CTX360 vs the variable speed Astral pump.Both similar head at say 300L/m if you use the orange "overdrive" mode.And their own claimed power consumption figures showsVariable: 514kWh/yr for 303L/min for 8m headFixed: 1353kWh/yr for 360L/min for 8m head.So correcting the variable one for 360L/min gives 610kWh/yrSo better than half the energy consumption at the same flow rate, why?Just because of the way the motor is driven?In which case why not simply make the fixed speed pump with the variable drive control but fix it at one speed?It makes no sense for a company to make a fixed speed pump at half the efficiency if it can make it by just changing the motor drive typeThey do have a whole range fo fixed speed pump models though, I'm only comparing the CTX model I have.But in any case, how does one get an Energy Star rating of 1 and the other get a rating of 6?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:12:29 am
content: And then in the same veriable speed datasheet they show even less of an advantage vs fixed speed367kwh vs 414kwh is not exactly selling a huge advantage?

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 11:48:58 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 10:45:02 amThis totally makes sense since the final efficiency depends on many parameters beyond the control of the pump manufacturer. I believe that the most reliable and fastest way to find it out is to test the exact system live, drawing up a flow to power ratio curve (l/s of pumped water per kWh of consumed energy) and finding its peak. However, this will require the installation of a VFD controller anyway.Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 10:48:32 amIf we assume that we are talking about replacing a single-phase asynchronous motor (with typical field slip) with a three-phase synchronous motor with a VFD controller, then we can talk about an increase in energy efficiency from approximately 65% to 95% in the best case. If we assume that the VFD controller is smart enough and equipped with the necessary sensors, then theoretically it can squeeze out a certain amount of additional efficiency, depending on the depth of the suboptimality of the current pumping system. But the claims about “4 times more effective by simply reducing the speed” sounds like a marketing sales policy for me.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 12:37:26 pm
content: And there are likely some losses in the capacitors to create several speeds as well reducing the efficiency of an induction motor based solution even further.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 02:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Wolf on December 12, 2023, 08:06:27 amThis is not about inefficiency, this is about the performance characteristic of the pump, like the chart you showed in a later post. That chart was for a single speed, but if you included speed as a parameter on that chart you would see a family of curves that behaved in approximately the way I described.Note that the required power is roughly proportional to flow times head, which naturally means that if you halve the speed the pump can only do about 1/8th of the work.The main impact of lowering the speed is to match the optimum efficiency of the pump with a lower system demand of flow and head. If you only need half the flow, then running the pump at full speed will waste a lot of power.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 02:58:15 pm
content: All the comments above about the efficiency of different motor types are very important, and clearly show the impact of the motor choice on power consumption.The pump efficiency is a hydraulic efficiency, and is a parallel and complementary aspect of the overall system performance.Consider the previously posted diagram below.Let's suppose the required flowrate is only 3 on the capacity axis (the flow is throttled to match demand). We can see the hydraulic efficiency would be about 35%, meaning that 65% of the input power from the motor is wasted. If the motor itself had an electrical efficiency of 60%, then the overall efficiency would be 35% x 60% = 21%, which is abysmal.Now let's suppose we reduce the speed of the pump, so that peak efficiency point aligns with the required flow of 3 (we slow the pump and reduce the throttling). Now the hydraulic efficiency could be closer to 85%. If we also include a variable speed drive with a modern motor to achieve the speed reduction, then perhaps the electrical efficiency could be improved also to 90%. This would give us a new overall efficiency of 85% x 90% = 77%. This is clearly much better than the previous 21%, and is much less energy wasted.Whether such an improvement is actually achievable in practice depends on the details of the system under consideration and the originally installed equipment.

author: Peabody
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 03:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 10:42:30 amSo you have circulation for only 3 hours a day? When I had a pool that wouldn't be enough to keep all the airborne crud filtered out, or to keep the pool chlorinated properly. But that was an old pool using trichlor, and with no automatic cleaner for the bottom. I guess things are a lot different with a modern pool.

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 03:53:00 pm
content: I would add to the above that in addition to the simple double conversion of electrical energy into mechanical torque into hydraulic flow (with its own efficiencies and their product), we must also take into account the efficiency of the entire pumping system, taking into account the diameter, length and height difference of the pipes, the characteristics of the filters, and even intake and exhaust grilles. All this will ultimately affect the position of the peak of the final efficiency on the chart. And as far as I know, there is no such rule that the slower the more efficient, since the optimal flow rate for maximum efficiency directly depends on the characteristics of the pump impeller under a certain load - flow resistance, which is comprehensively determined by the entire pumping system.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 03:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Wolf on December 12, 2023, 08:06:27 amThere's really no such thing as "at idle". If the pump is running, it is always somewhere on the head-flow curve (see the diagram you posted).If the discharge pipework has a very low resistance then the pump will be to the right of the curve, with a high flowrate and low required head.If the discharge pipework has a high resistance the pump will be to the left of the curve, with a high head and low flowrate.(This is for a single, constant speed. If we make speed a variable parameter it adds a third dimension to the chart.)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:07:02 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Wolf on December 12, 2023, 03:53:00 pmIt turns out that system of pipes and equipment is like a "load resistance", and the pump itself is like a "supply". The operating point occurs where the load is balanced with the supply. This can be done graphically with a load line and a pump curve. Where the two lines intersect is the operating point.There now can be a consideration of "impedance matching", where the capacity of the pump is matched to the pumped system (either by changing the size, characteristics or speed of the pump). A best system efficiency is achieved with a good match that puts the pump at its most efficient operating point.

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:09:02 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 03:53:47 pm"At idle" in this case means without any significant resistance to flow (no height difference, maximum diameter of the shortest possible pipes without bends or contractions). That is, a pump driven by an asynchronous motor doesn't produce any useful work as soon as it reaches operating speed, and the slip angle is optimal, and the rotation speed is maintained not only by the torque of the engine, but also by the pressure of the flow itself (in a looped system).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:17:04 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Wolf on December 12, 2023, 04:09:02 pmOK, with that clarification, let's suppose that that is a flow somewhere around 15 on the horizontal axis of the chart. We can see from the brake horsepower curve that the power required from the motor is high and increasing. So the demand on the motor is actually higher than at lower flowrates. Far from idling, the motor is actually working very hard.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:22:55 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 11:07:18 amthere are a lot of folks here with mild reading comprehension skills.its not the same flow rate. its 308/360.personally, i don't believe the energy savings you quoted above are possible.. unless the motor is so saturated, that the VFD can optimally drive the motor and suddenly the motor's efficiency increases from 65% at full speed (yes, a 1hp motor is almost always that bad) to 80% at 2/3rds speed, pushing 80% the flow rate.if you notice, IanB suddenly changed his mind and now agrees with me that pumps have a cubic power curve, which is why i said half speed is 1/7th the power. when you account for half the flow rate, multiplied by 1/8th the power, you get back to what i said, moving the same volume of water for 1/4th the energy.so you could argue the energy savings are 75% on that point alone. who cares if the pump has to run twice as long.also keep in mind it doesn't. the slower flow rate through your filter means the chealating and binding agents work better on the filter.Now regarding hydronic recirculation pumps which are used to push water through heat pumps, ground fields, water heated flooring (pex pipe, ugh)I would have to get the numbers again, but i have a number of these pumps and at 110 watts at 120vac, one might push 10 gallons a minute with a 3 foot head. (the water shooting out of a 1/2" pipe will lift the water 3 feet out of a 5 gallon bucket).at 60vac, 60hz, the flow rate is about half that volume, and the motor only sucks up maybe 40 watts. this is a capacitor run motor, impedance limited, 10uf cap. no vfd, just a variac.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 11:12:29 amagain, reading comprehension skills are a huge variable....the screen shot you showed is showing the power consumption of the variable speed pumps compared to a conventional 2 speed and 3 speed pump! not a single speed.there is, in my opinion, NO significant advantage of a VFD over a 2/4/6 pole pump motor. if you need to fine tune the flow rate, use a valve.the 4 and 6 pole windings take up hardly any space in the motor, they don't blow up, they don't burn out. if they are made a little bigger than needed you can get the motor's efficiency up. the savings pay for the vfd many times over, because it will blow up, short out, the capacitors will dry out, a power surge will kill it. etc.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:33:46 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 05:46:32 amNot really. Or at least it depends on what is equal. Flow resistance rises with velocity, so of the pumping is limited by flow resistance (as opposed to elevation rise) the lower speed pump will need to supply much less work to move the same volume of water. How much less depends on the flow velocity and amount of turbulence but it is likely a big difference.However if the pump itself runs less (or more) efficiently below it's ideal speed the energy consumed by the pump won't track the work delivered to the water. I have no idea how pool pumps are sized but I'd guess that at full speed they are running above their peak efficiency.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:37:29 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on December 12, 2023, 04:22:55 pmI really didn't change my mind. I merely pointed out that if the pump is required to move, say, 1 m³/h, and you halve the speed, it will now be moving about 0.5 m³/h. If this is less than you need, the saving is moot.QuoteIn real world scenarios, time is usually a variable. Otherwise you could drive a car with a maximum speed of 30 km/h and obtain really good economy.

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 04:37:29 pmThis is highly dependent on the transmission ratios. Typically, for road cars, the optimal cruising speed is a little more than 100 km/h or 60 mph.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:43:19 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on December 12, 2023, 04:33:46 pmThis is right. I did oversimplify a bit, and perhaps a bit too much. But when efficiencies are as bad as the numbers quoted in this thread, I suspect what I said is good to a first order approximation.To be sure, turbulent flow resistance in piping is with the square of the flowrate, and therefore reducing the flowrate (or using fatter pipes) will reduce the energy cost. The trade off with fatter pipes is they cost more to install and there is an economic optimum.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:47:56 pm
content: AFAIK the best reason to use a VFD drive on a pool pump is that you go from a single phase motor to a 3 phase one. The single phase motor is generally a lot lower efficiency in converting input AC power to actual shaft power over the 3 phase unit, so the overall efficiency of having a fixed 3 phase drive, and a 3 phase motor, of the same RPM and power output, is a motor that runs a whole lot cooler, so thus less of the input power is going out as heat in the windings and core losses. Your typical pool pump motor runs around anything from 600W to 1.1kW, though the efficiency is not always stated, and they run really hot. Swap out to a 3 phase motor in the same frame, and you find efficiency goes up from around 70 odd percent to well over 90 percent, just from the lower losses in the core and windings.For a pool pump, where all parts, automatic cleaner, filter, heat pump, skimmer and returns are all optimised for a very small variance from the full power of the standard motor, and you will probably see around 10% savings in power from having the fixed frequency inverter and a 3 phase motor there. Pool pump motor you can retrofit, they mostly use a standard IEC flange size, though often they use a special shaft, but that is easy to fix just by swapping in the 3 phase motor body, and toss the end caps, rotor and the old pump single phase windings. Reuse the rotor, it likely will be a perfect fit, as they do use standard sizes in the motors, to gain advantage of industrial production. Take a thermal image of a single phase motor versus a 3 phase one, running any load, from zero to full, and you will always see the single phase one runs a lot hotter, especially with lower load.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:51:19 pm
content: I'm a bit astonished at some of the replies here. Pool pump efficiency is a well-known and documented thing. I have a pool/spa combo and I have a pump/filter system that I set up myself. I've roughly measured flow rates, pressures and energy consumption, but that was almost a decade ago. However, I can still tell you with 100% assurance that running your pump slower for longer will save you energy. This is clearly documented in charts and graphs from various pool pump manufacturers and I'm not talking just about the more recent advertising for the variable-speed versions. It's just a question of how much.First, we're talking about a pool system here, and I'm going to assume that the pumps are approximately at the level of the pool. This is important when you start discussing the head pressure, as a fixed head pressure componenent that would result from an elevation change--like a well pump--will result in a much different result than a variable head pressure which is dependent on the pumping losses through the pipes and filters. In a pool system, there is essentially zero fixed head and the variable head pressure is entirely dependent on the pumping volume. In such a system, doubling the pump volume over some baseline requires 8 times the mechanical input power, thus halving the volume will reduce the input power to 1/8. This is true over the range of volumes, pressures and speeds that you'd see in any reasonable pool pump system.So from there it is simple--with most typical pool pumps, cutting the pump speed in half will reduce the mechanical input power required to 1/8. The other major factor is the motor efficiency. I have a two-speed pump, not a variable. Unfortunately, the typical Pentair two-speed pool pump was much less efficient on the low speed, but I built my own using a specialized motor that has separate windings, capacitors, etc that are switched in by relays and retains most of its efficiency on the lower speed. A variable speed ECM pump will gain 10-15% efficiency over even a good induction motor and will be more efficient over its usable range as well. I'll probably install one if and when my current setup wears out.The bottom line for those of you trying to adapt generic pump efficency concepts to a pool is that there isno net workbeing done--the water just returns to the pool. Thus pumping losses--including motor efficiency--are 100% of your energy consumption.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 04:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 07:03:26 amProcess pumps are designed and intended to be used with 100% duty cycle, at least while the system is running. They provide the flow rate needed for the system. There is no way to lower the speed without increasing the size of the pump. Dave is taking a out a pool pump that runs 3 hours per day. That is pretty much guaranteed to be several times less efficient than an optimally sized pump that runs the same system 6 hours a day at half the flow rate. What fraction of the savings are achieved by running the same pump at lower rpm depends on the pump efficiency curve but it's for sure a real thing.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 05:04:12 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on December 12, 2023, 04:53:36 pmI understand it's a real thing, but the hidden question is why wouldn't you just install a smaller (and cheaper) pump in the first place, rather than running a bigger pump and slowing it down?It seems to be the case that sometimes the high flowrate from the big pump is needed, for example to backflush filters (?). In which case installing a smaller pump would not work.Therefore the best solution seems to be to use a three phase motor with a variable speed drive for maximum efficiency, and run the pump slower for longer when the high flowrate is not needed.An alternative solution is apparently to use a motor with different windings for different fixed speeds, and to switch speeds as required.

author: Alex Wolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 05:11:38 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 12, 2023, 05:04:12 pmDue to cavitation at high impeller speeds. High performance with high efficiency requires a large impeller and high torque.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 05:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Wolf on December 12, 2023, 05:11:38 pmNo, that is not factual at all. Pumps come in many sizes, from tiny to enormous. Whatever the pumping duty required, an efficient pump can be selected from a catalog to suit that duty.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 05:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 11:07:18 amJust as expected.QuoteBecause the better motor type (probably permanent magnet synchronous AC motor also known as BLDC), which needs the inverter circuit anyway, trivially allows varying the speed once the circuitry is there: it's only about a user interface to set the speed. Given added value in higher efficiency, cost is higher, and people also expect more features. Besides, these motor types have larger sweet region so it would be stupid not to allow users to gain even more savings. If you only need the single speed, just don't adjust it. But even if you predominantly want a certain speed, you don't knowexactlywhat the optimum is, before adjusting it. It's like selling a car with gas pedal glued in place; one would then control speed by applying variable amount of braking, which would be highly ineffective.QuoteOf course it does, market is full of stuff where old legacy model, which is cheaper to manufacture, especially given economics of scale and existing production lines, is being manufactured even when it is inferior in every other way except price.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 05:59:50 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 12, 2023, 04:51:19 pmThanks for the words of reason here.I am not familiar with pentair but i am familiar with two different kinds of 2 speed motors that use the same windings. There is two ways to connect the windings. in parallel for half speed, which maintains the same flux density, or series for half speed which cuts the flux density in half which produces 1/4th the torque on the rotor.pumps typically use the latter. lathes and machine tools, the former.because the windings are not optimal for either use case, they aren't very efficient on slow speed.one experiment i did successfully, i took a 4 pole, 1750 rpm shaded pole fan motor. I cut the windings apart and changed the polarity, and put a capacitor in series with two of them. the motor ran fine at 60 vac, at 3500 rpm.salient pole induction motors are not common above 1/4hp. but you could build a 2 speed pump motor with such a method.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 08:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2023, 05:34:10 amI think pumping losses are not linear with flow rate. If so it seems like a lower flow rate over longer time would be better. But there is probably a knee on that.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2023, 09:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on December 12, 2023, 05:59:50 pmThe one I have is essentially two separate concentric motors sharing the induction armature and the stator poles but using entirely separate windings and capacitors for each speed.https://www.inyopools.com/Products/00200017039443.htmIf this type were not available, I'd switch to an ECM variable-speed model like this:https://intheswim.com/p/ec-342001---superflo-vs-variable-speed-pool-pump-1.5-hp---limited-warranty/387245.html

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2023, 08:16:43 am
content: Mandatory car analogy:You have two hours to drive 200km.1) You drive at 200km/h for an hour, then rest for an hour2) You drive at 100km/h for two hoursIn (2), because at high speeds aerodynamic losses dominate, average power is 1/8th of (1), but for double the time, so energy consumed is 1/4. 75% savings right here.Then you change to a more efficient motor type - say, from 30% efficient internal combustion engine to 80% efficient EV. Now the energy consumed goes from 1/4 to below 1/10th. Large savings are possible when the real physical work done is zero, and everything is unnecessary losses. Things are different if you are moving heavy objects on the top of the hill, and come back with empty cars. Or if you are pumping water from a well to higher grounds. Then you are doing actual work which cannot be made more than 100% efficient, plus those losses.

author: HarryDoPECC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 08:43:32 pm
content: I have thought about this for some time too and had many of the same doubts about just reducing pump speed by some (arbitrary) factor.Maybe this is a kind of X-Y problem: what we are really looking for is the most energy efficient way to move a required volume of water thru the system.The opportunity for speed reduction arises because the pumps are believed to be pretty crudely (over)specified. Filter resistance also varies significantly.Those factors led me to think that a much better approach would be to control speed and time using flow as input and daily volume as target. Implementing the control is easy enough but I never found a flow sensor at price I could bear. But did not look too hard….Is this a more valid approach,Anyone got sensor ideas (where I am pool pipe work is typically PVC 40 or 50mm)

author: HarryDoPECC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 08:46:32 pm
content: … and flow rates say 200-800 LLM

author: HarryDoPECC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 08:47:16 pm
content: * LPM. Litre / min

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 09:46:53 pm
content: Quote from: HarryDoPECC on December 23, 2023, 08:43:32 pmYes, but when it comes to practice sometimes you just want it done in the fastest time possible rather than in the most energy efficienct manner.In my case right now I don't how a variable speed pump is going to help when I mostly want to run it during excess sun daylight hours.That could change if I get a battery solution, in which case it might pay to run it 24/7 at a slower speed at less power.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 12:04:12 am
content: Quote from: Peabody on December 12, 2023, 03:45:24 pmThat is similar to the point I was just going to make.Years ago we bought our current house.When we first looked at it, we were delighted to see a large, quite recently installed saltwater pool, & were surprised that the house was cheaper than others without a pool.Unbeknownst to us, the previous owner had been "conned" with a saltwater chlorinator which was inadequate for the job, requiring almost constant operation to produce enough Chlorine to be within the safe level.After battling with the original setup for some years, where most of the time we still had to add additional chlorine, we "bit the bullet" & bought a new, heavier duty pump & chlorinator.It wasn't the "magic bullet" to fix all my woes, though, & there were still "issues".Everybody else in the family had become disenchanted with the pool, & I ended up becoming the "pool boy".Eventually we got it ripped out.Anyway, the point was that you can play with speeds till you are "blue in the face", but it is the efficiency of the chlorinator in a saltwater pool which is the determining factor.That said, I don't know if Dave's pool is a saltwater type or something more exotic.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 09:59:13 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 24, 2023, 12:04:12 amIt's salt water as per my videos.It's been upped to 4hrs per day on the advice of the pool guy.4hrs per day at the pump rate is two and a half complete pool exchanges per day.We just added extra salt yesterday, as I believe we are still in the initial salting phase.Don't have enough data yet. People we know with a salt water pool have no problems.

author: ogdento
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2024, 05:39:58 am
content: Just saw this post while searching for VFD info...Dave, did you ever get a variable speed pump? I don't think you'll be unhappy if you do... six or seven years ago I swapped a 2-speed Pentair pump (similar to what bdunham had) for an Intelliflo VS and while it has saved me money, my favorite thing is it's super quiet. For me it's worth it just for the peace and quiet.