Consumer grade PnP machine in 2021, what are the best options? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Leviathan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 02:14:53 pm
content: I'm looking to buy a Pick & Place machine to produce a few hundred boards a month. I'm planning on setting this up in my garage where I have some space, but not enough for a giant machine.Most of the info I'm reading is from 2018 at the latest, so I was wondering if much has changed. Based on what I've read, I'm trying to decide between the Neoden 4, CHMT36VA, & TVM925.As far as pricing, the TVM & Neoden seem to be similar once you factor in things like buying a compressor/dryer for the TVM925, though the Neoden 4 seems to still be a bit more expensive overall. The CHMT36VA is significantly cheaper than the other 2.Are there better options out there? Does anyone have experience with any of these 3 machines & have thoughts on it after using it a few months or years?Edit: Just found this note on the Sparkfun blog post about the CHMT36VA. They don't mention names of the other desktop units unfortunately. Anyone have some suggestions?"Please do not buy a Charmhigh desktop mounter.Both Charmhigh and I are located in Changsha, China. We are very close to each other. I drove to Charmhigh to visit the company. They found that the focus of their work in recent years are in the development of 8 and 12 large SMT, desktop SMT has not been updated for about 5 years. Compared with desktop mounters made by other companies in China, you can find that the hardware configuration and software of Charmhigh are rubbish."

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2021, 10:03:24 pm
content: I have the Charmhigh 48VB.Smallest components I run are 0805.You can't leave it alone and expect it to run perfectly, It probably runs 98-99% perfectly, but every now and again it has an issue that needs 30 seconds of attention. Usually the peeler didn't peel. You don't want to se them too tight though, otherwise they pull out tape. You understand what that means when you see it. Basically, keep the little allen wrench out as you will be adjusting peelers a lot. They are also sensitive to temp changes (changes the friction fit).The software to convert your PnP output from your CAD is flaming hot garbage. I damn near have to go through manually component by component, but especially any components that have polarity or SOT23 and such. It REALLY likes to screw up rotation. Things like chip resistors or caps may get turned 180 degrees when no rotation is needed, but it gets the job done. If you do the same boards over and over, take the 1-2 days, get your file built and proven, then you are fine.The feeders don't suck too bad. They aren't Yamaha feeders on a good machine, but they work. I use a good mix of plastic and paper tape. Paper is better, but plastic works if you slow down the draw speed.Overall, I liked it enough to buy a second setup to increase my production. Now that I know the quirks, I can keep it running with minimal issues. But like I said, you can't just abandon it, you do need to be there when it is doing its thing. Not like it has a conveyor for automated assembly anyway...I think you need to take a HUGE step up in price to go after something else. I'd be personally hesitant to grab knock-off or proprietary feeders such as on the larger Charmhigh units, and either stick with these "built in" feeders or get a real machine.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2021, 06:24:18 pm
content: Why not consider a quality refurb of a real branded machine? We own the Assembleon Emerald-x = Yamaha YV88X + tons of feeders and other equipment for our assembly line. Just 2 weeks ago you could have picked up a low hour machine that will spin circles around the above equipment for under $20k (CAD). This was an auction of a closing SMT shop in Toronto. Deals like this are quite common. Trans-tec (USA) is the rep for Yamaha and they should be able to support you after the purchase. These machines are built very well and we are still learning about what it can do. We have managed to place down 01005 parts using a special nozzle out of Shenzhen but can do 0201 / 0402 / 0603 all day with this equipment. No issues to handle TQFP; BGA; WLCSP @ 1.4*1.4 mm = Lattice ICE40 16 ball device with vision inspection. Just my 2-bits..

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2021, 06:55:47 pm
content: I am also considering a desktop P&P, for prototype and very low-volume production. I don't have room for a big machine. If the volumes increase I will probably farm out the assy, but for now I am just tired of loading the boards by hand. My typical board has 25 different components, and about 100 components total. Component size is 1206, 0805, 0603, and 0402, plus some SOT, TQFP and QFN chips. There are a few through-hole connectors, but I can hand-solder those. The boards are small, about 5" x 5" or less. The P&P doesn't have to be fast, but I would like it to be virtually error-free.I've read all the P&P discussion here, and looked at a lot elsewhere, and am now trapped in a state of analysis paralysis -- everything remotely appropriate has a lot of attached horror stories or is way more money than I can justify (or both).I have a Shapeoko CNC machine that I would think could be adapted using OpenPnP, placement head components, and video, but while I actually enjoy building stuff I would need it to actually work when I am done and I haven't seen evidence that this is a realistic option.Any recommendations?

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 04:31:32 am
content: Suggest the new Kayo 6 head S600 machine, I've seen it work and the software (after a YEAR of debugging by the mfr), is now quite usable now. will mount 0402s competently with the narrow feeders. Mechanically very very good, has half a ton of granite for the base...it is stable.....and head Z axis are belt driven, not cam driven like most Chinese machines which gives it the precision edge. Software is best described as "OK". All the chinese machine software is pretty much rubbish at best, but this one is OK by standards....(I have 3 x Kayo A4 with my own SW)(I also have a QiHe TVM920 if anyone locally wants it)(I also have aYamaha YVL88 and CL feeders if anyone wants that, surplus to needs, has a dead servo driver)

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 05:36:24 am
content: Quote from: glenenglish on May 26, 2021, 04:31:32 amYes, I've looked through the S600 marketing material and it is indeed very impressive. I saw an early model when I was in Shenzhen in 2019 but they did not want to sell me one because it was still too early in development. The software is definitely much closer to "western" machines. Ultimately although fantastic value this is still well outside of OP's budget and meager throughput requirements.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2021, 09:07:11 pm
content: How to purchase a CHMT36VA in the USA?I'm getting close to deciding to purchase a CHMT36VA for very low-volume production. I've seen the horror stories about the larger Charmhigh machines, but the CHMT36VA and the CHMT48VA appear to be pretty usable. If my production volumes increase I plan to use an assy house, but for prototyping and early-stage production I would like to do it in-house and I am seriously tired of hand-placing the components.So what's the best way to purchase one of these? I've never used Alibaba, but see these units all over the place from different sellers, including what looks like the Charmhigh company. Or ordering from the Charmhigh website? Or from Amazon? I haven't found a USA distributor or agent but I would seriously consider paying a bit extra for a local contact and perhaps a little support.I absolutely don't want a huge machine -- no room for one, and don't need the throughput. I would be happy with 1000 CPH placement speed, and my BOM is small enough that the CHMT36VA feeder count is adequate.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2021, 10:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on May 31, 2021, 09:07:11 pmGood luck getting any local support for these desktop machines. There is a reason why they are so cheap, from China.If you want to buy locally, the best bet is eBay or forums like this in the buy/sell category. Might be able to find someone local from who you can buy a 2nd hand unit.Ordering off Aliexpress or Alibaba is your next best bet. You will be ordering directly from the manufacturer or a local reseller.The best bet is to go directly with the manufacturer as there will be some support there when things go wrong.That being said, forums and Discord are probably more help than Charmhigh at this point.Pretty easy to order from these sites. I do it all the time. They just ship DHL typically (to Europe at least) and it will arrive in 2 weeks in a small pallet style box.I highly recommend watching Unexpected Maker's videos on the machine prior to purchase.