Still Siglent SDG2042X over SDG1032X after new added features (TrueArb, etc)?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: FPdesign
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 07:32:09 am
content: I've been reading quite a few topics here since it's been discussed almost to death.. SDG2042X has been mostly favoured due to TrueArb.. now TrueArb seems to have been added to the SDG1032X as well.. is there still a big enough difference for almost double the price?..I need it mostly for pro audio.. 16 bit would be favourable.. shorter Rise/fall times too.. I only see one shortcoming with the square characteristics where the SDG1032X seems to shine, but some users have talked about workarounds (ARB Square Duty50).. is there anything else the newer SDG1032X does better than the SDG2042X?The SAG1021I would have been a great budget option, like it being isolated.. BUT AmplitudeRange of +-3v makes it unusable for me, I need 10vpp for when I need to calibrate hardware..Since I also own a Siglent scope and want to use bode plotting, I'm sticking with Siglent AWG for now..

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 08:16:46 am
content: Functionality between the 32 and 42 are mostly identical except for the touch screen capability of the 2000X series.Depending how you peddle/drive these AWG's the touch may or may not be any advantage but just occasionally I find it is especially popping in and out of 50 Ohm output mode.For some the 16 bit rules yet the somewhat cheaper 14 bit 1032X with its faster rise time and SineandSquare to max freq is attractive.Either play real nice with scopes capable of Bode plot and the other thing that works well with either is the free EasyWaveX SW package however it does require NIVSA Runtime at a minimum for the PC connectivity drivers and you need install the Runtime package before EasyWaveX.In the end it comes down to the model you'll be most comfortable with.

author: FPdesign
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 05:22:21 pm
content: thanks for your feedback tautech.Touchscreen isn't as important to me, but I guess can be practical.. 1.2GSa/s sampling rate and 16-bit vertical resolution on the other hand is.. Also being able to "upgrade" to 120MHz makes it interesting to should I ever need to..I'm thinking the Siglent SDG2042X is probably the max I will be needing from an AWG feature wise (once "upgraded"), so I'm inclined to go with that.. anything else I would be doing over the computer/audio interface/ADDA converters...Quote from: tautech on May 28, 2022, 08:16:46 amI thought only Square rise/fall time was faster and max freq on 1032X over the SDG2042X, but Sine on the SDG2042X should have up to 40/80/120MHz and minimum of 8.4ns rise and fall vs 30/60MHz and minimum of 16.8 ns on the 1032X? Or did I miss something reading the specs?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 07:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: FPdesign on May 28, 2022, 05:22:21 pmYou did.1000X models Sine and Square have the same max frequency for each model, 30 or 60 MHz, although at these speeds Square starts looking like a sinewave however it would be much worse for a 2000X model.1000X models can do this because of their improved output stage that offers better rise and fall times than 2000X models.If this really was a thing of need SDS6000X models take rise/fall times to another level albeit their cost is also in a different league.Anyways, careful and detailed study of the datasheets reveals all these things.

author: FPdesign
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 01:41:07 am
content: Thanks again for your reply tautech..I have been looking at the data sheet all along but can not see what you have mentioned.. would you mind sharing a screen shot of those numbers please?yes the Square max freq of the 2000x is lower (25MHz) and slower rise/fall time.. which I had mentioned.. but why should the Sine be worse off on the 2000x? it only mentioned for the Square wave circuit to be improved on the 1000x, the Sine wave should still be superior on the 2000x, no? (higher frequenzy, faster rise and fall times)reading specs again SDG2042X sine wave 40/80/120MHz and minimum of 8.4ns rise and fall.. 1032X sine wave 30/60MHz and minimum of 16.8 ns rise and fall (faster only for square)..

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 04:17:02 am
content: Quote from: FPdesign on May 28, 2022, 05:22:21 pmIt is easy to forget that it even has a touchscreen and I'm sure there are users that aren't even aware of it.Just to be clear on one thing, the advertised sample rate is misleading. The maximum sample rate of the DDS (and True Arb, I think) is 300MSa/s and then there is 4X interpolation by some process with unclear specifics. This makes the necessary low-pass filtering easier and cleaner, but it also limits both the rise time and the accuracy of square wave edge placement more than a 1.2GSa/s rate would suggest. There are some other quirks sort of related to this that have been discussed elsewhere, but nothing that would in any way be important to audio uses.AFAIK, the SDS1000X-series can do the higher frequency square waves because it uses a different output configurationfor square waves only. Rise times for other things like pulses aren't improved, again AFAIK since I don't have one of these.Whether the SDG2042X is worth the extra money to you, I couldn't tell you. 120MHz comes in pretty handy for me working on FM receivers even though I have other (larger, less handy) RF generators available.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 08:34:26 am
content: Quote from: FPdesign on May 28, 2022, 05:22:21 pmDon't get fooled by the 1.2GSa/s claim: That's an oversampling "feature" that may or may not be beneficial for certain waverforms by taking some demand off of the reconstruction filter in these instruments. "Real" sampling rate of the SDG2000X series is 300MSa/s. Moreover (IMO, I'm notorious for this complaint...), the user interface on this whole range of instruments (SDG1000X, 2000X and 6000X) feels just out-of-date and won't give you the most enjoyable impression.If you're not particularly looking for a Siglent instrument (due to commonality with a Siglent scope or the particularly fast square wave rise/fall times of the SDG1000X), but in general for an entry level, economical AWG, and you consider hacking your instrument for additional options (no big deal), you may want to have a look at Rigol's DG811, which currently is the best bang-for-buck instrument in this class on my list. But of course, there are also arguments for the SDG1000X / 2000X.Good luck!Tom

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 08:44:34 am
content: Quote from: TurboTom on May 29, 2022, 08:34:26 amHe is, for integration with the scope...Quote from: FPdesign on May 28, 2022, 07:32:09 am

author: Roger Need
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 09:00:24 pm
content: I went through this exercise of comparing the SDG1032x and the SDG2042X. I bought the SDG2042X for the following reasons:More accurate time base and it can be adjusted in the service menu to be extremely accurate. This means the frequency counter will be more accurate as well. Yes you can use a GPSDO as external input on the SDG1032X but i wanted good stand-alone operationTrue arb is much better in 2042xBetter pulse rise times on 2042XLess square wave jitter on 2042X16 bit D/ALess harmonic distortion on 2042XAttached is a document by Siglent describing the differences. Also some excerpts from the specs comparing the two.Roger

author: FPdesign
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 04:46:31 pm
content: thanks again to everyone who has been replying.. much appreciated!@Roger Need.. those are the numbers I have been seeing as well... so I'm inclined going for the SDG2042X.. thanks for the screenshot share@bdunham7.. since I'm working in kHz regions rather MHz the limitation of the SDG2042X wouldn't bother me as much.. somewhat slower rise/fall for Square I can live with.. the benefits of the SDG2042X over SDG1032X might be worth the extra cash after all..@TurboTom.. I own a Siglent scope and want to do bode plotting, so I do want to go for a Siglent AWG as well..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 06:55:55 pm
content: Be aware though that the SDG2042X has issues synchronising the output to an external 10MHz reference. On top of that, the type of issues seems to depend on the firmware version where Siglent fixed / broke stuff.

author: Roger Need
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 11:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 30, 2022, 06:55:55 pmI am using the latest version of the firmware for the 2042X and have no problems synchronising to an external 10MHz reference. What problem are you having?Roger

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 01:38:24 am
content: Quote from: Roger Need on May 30, 2022, 11:54:49 pmFrom an earlier discussion:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-vs-tek-function-generators/msg3878804/#msg3878804

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 11:49:34 am
content: currently discussing again about the square wave FM fade outa) as last involved Siglent Support engineer left... as too small FPGA memory .. then promised a FW only to provide within on channelb) from new engineer... quick answer: not possible to fixc) same as SDG2K as SDM6K...d) just go figure as looks as a diy companyso decisions are made about face looser lands

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 02:39:45 pm
content: Setup:• Square wave 10Mhz• FM modulation 500Hz• Low FM deviation value 1Hz or lower, may also on 2HzIssue:• Modulation fades out after a while, use SSA3K to validate

author: FPdesign
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 02:30:23 am
content: the mentioned syncing issue, is that with all Siglent AWGs or just the SDG2000X and SDG6000X?@nctnicowhat other bugs are at the moment still an issue with the SDG2000X?

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 07:30:46 am
content: Though I'm not @nctnico, I dare to add my 2ct here: I guess most of the issuesthat I listed hereare also still valid for the SDG2kX. Depending on your prefered usage model, they may or may not be relevant to you. I also might not call them "genuine bugs" but at least for me, they are serious shortcomings that are solved much better on other manufacturer's gear.You can work around them, no question, but I wonder why Siglent won't address them, especially since the first hints regarding these are more than three years old... @hpw's yesterday's contribution may explain a lot regarding the reasons for that and puts quite some shadow on Siglent's attitude towards such problems and as a trustworthy test gear manufacturer in general. Hopefully only their generator branch is affected...One issue that you cannot work around if a problem arises is the lack of auxiliary inputs. There is a single BNC that can be configured as modulation input, sync / trigger input / output and what not for both channels of the instrument. It's been Siglent's design choice to have it that way and add (imo) a mostly useless half-baked frequency counter while the BNC real estate for that add-on would have been much more reasonably used for a second aux input.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 08:36:57 am
content: Quote from: FPdesign on June 01, 2022, 02:30:23 amI don't know and nobody knows what else is lingering. Initially I choose the SDG2kX because it comes highly recommended on the forum and since it was out for many years already I assumed all the bugs got ironed out. That assumption turned out to be a mistake. Siglent just lacks the knowledge and firmware development & testing abilities to create a rock solid product. In the end I bought a much more expensive generator from Tektronix which does the job well.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 10:12:09 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 01, 2022, 08:36:57 amBy that same token there must horror of bugs hiding in that Tek AWG of yours too.. You didn't test everything, did you....??With all due respect, you have no clue what Siglent's capabilities are.... They are not perfect (nobody is), but you're just disrespectful to people that are making dozens of products that are each orders of magnitude more complex than anything you probably ever did...Let's keep it civil here, please...There are two separate issues here being discussed: a slow drift of frequency when FM modulation is engaged on square-waves.Drift is very slow and not seen always and not on all waveforms and combinations of settings.HPW in his endearing way discusses other: if you FM modulate square-wave signal by 0.1 ppm modulation it will stop modulating after some time...That is corner case and also happens only with some combinations of settings.There is no issue with synch to external 10MHz ref signal that I know of on 6000 series. There was an issue few FW levels down on some models that it would revert automatically to internal clock if external clock had a even a slightest dropout. As far as I know that is fixed, at least on 6000X.And, just for all of your info, no, 7000A doesn't have any of mentioned problems...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 01:01:40 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 01, 2022, 10:12:09 amI don't have to. Tektronix has decades of experience designing high-end digital waveform generators. It is all about pedigree. Tektronix knows exactly how to build &testsuch devices. That also translates into having a full set of specifications in the datasheet. In the end you get what you pay for. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. I've learned my lesson.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 01:11:59 pm
content: It's quite peculiar how different the branches at Siglent appear to perform: I think it's pretty much agreed upon that they offer quite decent Oscilloscopes and SA and VNA products, "usable" power supplies and maybe DC loads but the mature AWGs are somewhat "cursed"...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 02:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 01, 2022, 08:36:57 amEvery device has its limitations. You'll recall a discussion about a Shahriar video showing an offset in an FM carrier with a Tektronix generator. Depending on how the math and such is implemented, every AWG probably has similar limitations at some point, although each device may have different weak spots. The SDG2042X, IIRC, actually has much, much less offset in the same situation. Despite acknowledged bugs and quirks, the SDG2042X would appear to me to be an excellent choice for the OP. This appears to be an excellent opportunity for you and the OP--dig out your SDG2042X and sell one to him.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/why-do-some-awgs-generate-fm-signals-with-an-incorrect-carrier-frequency/msg3424028/#msg3424028

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 03:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 01, 2022, 02:39:12 pmThat depends a bit on the requirements. So far the biggest advantage seems to be integration with the existing Siglent scope to do bode plots. For that the SDG1000X is good enough already. Unless higher frequencies are needed, the SDG2000X is rather expensive.

author: Roger Need
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 04:39:18 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on June 01, 2022, 07:30:46 amI disagree with you about the frequency counter. It works up to 250 MHz and after time base calibration or external 10 MHz. input it is very accurate. It locks easily to a wide range of signal inputs and the the reference/ppm feature is very useful to me. The statistical analysis works well too. The frequency counter feature is one of the reasons I bought the 2042X.Roger

author: FPdesign
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 06:25:15 pm
content: Well this post has me bringing up more questions than answers choosing between the SDG1000X or SDG2000X.. kind of flip flopping back and forth.. hmmSpecs wise I believe the SDG2000X is what would suite me for now and near future.. where I think with the SDG1000X I might outgrow sooner or later.. but with some of the issues I wonder if I should go with the SDG1000X option and wait until a SDG3000X comes along to supersede the SDG2000X.. but would prefer just get the right equipment now and be done with it.. unlike with scopes I don't see the need to upgrade AWG as often..On the other hand the external sync bug wouldn't affect me as much since I probably won't be needing this feature for now?.. so I just could go with the SDG2000X..So the sync bug only is a problem with Square wave, not Sine right? And have the SDG1000X the same problem?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 09:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: FPdesign on June 01, 2022, 06:25:15 pmWhat new stuff will come and when is matter of future... New AWG that Siglent has is 7000A series that is a different class of instrument.SDG2000X has a bit nicer sinewave than SDG1000X. SDG2000X distortions at audio frequencies are considerably better than specifications.