Bench LCR Recommendations? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 01:51:25 am
content: I'm interested in getting an accurate bench LCR meter. Preferably under $500. Is there anything good in that range? It seems like the price jumps pretty quickly with these.I already have the DE-5000, the Shannon tweezers, and a couple others. But I want another bench meter. Blame TEAS. 🤷Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 03:44:05 am
content: Doubt you'll find anything new much better than your DE-5000 in that price range, maybe look used.We acquired a Tonghui TH2830 a few years ago for ~$850, this is an excellent lab grade bench LCR meter, superb build quality with meticulous attention to detail and a host of features. This and the higher frequency (and much more expensive) Hioki IM3536 are our Lab Grade Bench LCR meters.If you can somehow swing for the TH2830 you won't be disappointed, and we've developed some routines for sweeping and plotting for this LCR as well as the ability to do external DC Bias measurements and so on. If you search for this meter, LCR fixtures and "mawyatt" you'll find what we've done. Forgot to mention ours has 5 digit frequency resolution, so you can set measurement frequency to 100.01Hz, 1.0001KHz, or 99.999KHz for example, and it's correct!There' something about measuring a reference 4.7pF COG 0603 cap at 4.6718pf 10/28/21, then on 4/9/22 at 4.6872pF with an added DC bias adapter and the IM3536 at 4.6864pF, then 5/15/22 at 4.6885pF, then 12/23/22 at 4.6844pF that gives one confidence in these Lab Grade Bench LCR meters, call thisaddictionquest for precision and not in a controlled environment, just next to my desk in direct path of AC, with WiFi, phones and suchAnyway, good luck with your LCRaddictionquestBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 02:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on May 20, 2023, 03:44:05 amAliExpress has a couple of the TH2830s new for about that price. Not sure if I should trust that tho lol.I was also looking at a used Hioki 3522-50. Any thoughts on that one?I also should probably waste some money on kelvin test clips too, right? For thequest!

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 03:03:59 pm
content: About them form Alitheere was this warningCAUTION!!!!! Do not purchase from any AliExpress site, none are authorized resellers of any Tonghui Products. OEM Tonghui will not honor the factory warranty if you purchase from an unauthorized site.?? check before buying ...come from this threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/measuring-small-capacitance-with-ks34465a-th2830/

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 03:22:13 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on May 20, 2023, 02:58:14 pmMay be better to get from an authorized source. Make sure you get the included Kelvin Clips and Leaded Test Fixtures, and the Shorting Bar. A bad seller may try and charge extra for these, they should come with the unit, ours did!!QuoteNice LCR but will be expensive relative to the TH2830, and likely not significantly better, we have the IM3536 because of the frequency range up to 8MHz, thus paid the price for this extended range which we needed.QuoteIf you acquire one of these lab grade Bench LCRs, you'll want the direct BNC fixtures as they eliminate a lot of the measurement uncertainty (no cables). The TH2830 comes with really nice Kelvin clips TH26011CS (and leaded fixture TH26048A), the IM3536 came without any fixtures but the Tonghui fixtures fit and work fine, as do some of the SMD fixtures we've employed, they all are on standard 3/4" BNC spacings.Edit: Forgot to mention, the Hioki IM3536 fan is loud, much higher than anything we have in lab. Evidently this is normal as we complained to the distributer and they ran a test with another IM3536 they had, and it was also very loudNot sure if other Hioki LCR bench meters have this is issue, so beware if acoustic noise is a concern. This alone has limited our use of the IM3536, otherwise it's a superb instrument covering 4Hz to 8MHz!!Anyway, good luck with your LCR Meter decisions.Best,

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 03:25:53 pm
content: If you are open to used equipment, look for aFLUKE PM6303A, they are sometimes available for around $500

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 04:20:49 pm
content: Here's some related threads regarding LCR meter fixtures and such.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/bias-network-for-lcr-meterhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-meter-plot-softwarehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-smd-lcr-fixture-the-good-bad-and-uglyThis link doesn't work, just use search for "cheap smd lcr fixture the good bad and ugly"https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/smd-test-fixture-modificationshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/quality-lcr-measurements-at-1mhzWe did some measurements of ceramic chip capacitors and noted the classic variation wrt applied DC voltage which became handy in evaluation of which ceramic type capacitor, size and which vendor to use for a customer, and recently kludged up a thermal means to sweep temperature and study the effects of such on leaded devices. These Bench type LCR meters with proper fixtures are quite useful indeed!!Now we're investigating a means to do temperature sweeps of SMDs, if folks are interested and would like to participate let us know.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 04:54:53 pm
content: I don't see ANY dealers for TongHui in the USA. The closest I found was somebody in Canada for $1200, or somebody else in New Zealand $900 shipped. But I don't know that any of them are authorized resellers anyway. The seller on Ali I'd be ordering it from has been there for 12 years, with good feedback. What's the concern, just warranty, or does somebody think they're fake or something weird like that? I wouldn't pay double just for a warranty.Other options would be something like:Matrix MCR-5200 $625 (incl. tax + shipping from Amazon)Used Hioki 3522-50 maybe around $700, no probes included.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 05:58:46 pm
content: Amazon is showing TH2830 for $900 here in US, at least you'll have Amazon if that helps with any issues. Probably just the warranty issues, altho we haven't had anything other than original firmware upgrade. If you check the build quality it's superb, so one wouldn't expect any hardware issues, and the fan is quite, unlike like the IM3536 altho the IM3536 seems quality built as well, just fan noisyAlso note the TH2830 comes with the TH26048A Leaded Fixture ($100), TH26011CS Kelvin Clips ($82) and TH26010 ($27) Shorting Bar. I wouldn't worry about LCR Meter clones, this LCR meter is too complex for a simple clone, however there are many clones of the various Tonghui fixtures, we have a couple (SMD and Leaded Fixtures) and they aren't too bad.Believe both Tonghui and Hioki are OEM suppliers to some of the top tier equipment companies, like Siglent with LeCroy, so one would expect quality products from them.If we were buying again, would get the TH2830 from Amazon, but YMMV.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2023, 06:42:04 pm
content: I saw the one on Amazon, except it's still shipped and sold by a company in China. So there's no real benefit unless they don't ship the item. The return policy would be theirs, not Amazon's. If it were shipped or sold by Amazon, that might make it worth it. The other thing is that photos in that ad don't show any extra toys that are supposed to come with it.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 12:43:15 am
content: Are any of the East Tester bench LCR meters worth looking at? Maybe the ET4410 or ET4510? Or does the DE-5000 kill them all?What about the Matrix MCR-5200 I mentioned, does anybody have any experience with that one?Thanks,Josh

author: gitm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 02:47:40 am
content: I have the MCR-5100. Bought it on Amazon for $500. I got it and found that its specifications were actually that of the MCR-5200 and went to 200 kHz even though it is badged as MCR-5100. Just checked Amazon and found the seller removed the $500 MCR-5100 and now only lists the MCR-5200 for $619 and the 10 kHz version for $390.I'm pleased with the unit. Clean user interface. I'm finding it to be reliable in it's measurements, even with very small capacitance and inductance values.I will say that they tried to give it the look and feel of the Keysight E4980AL unit, but its not a Keysight. There are several videos on youtube reviewing it.

author: gitm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 03:07:20 am
content: There is a MCR-5200 review showing the guts at the 18 minute mark of this videohttps://youtu.be/w3epmSrk6Ts

author: NoMoreMagicSmoke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 04:55:37 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on May 21, 2023, 12:43:15 amOn paper the East Testers look good. I recently purchased an ET432 and DE-5000, and the paper specs of the ET don't seem to match reality.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/east-tester-et432-vs-der-ee-de-5000-comparison/msg4864928/#msg4864928

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 04:26:01 pm
content: Quote from: gitm on May 21, 2023, 02:47:40 amMan, for $500 I wouldn't hesitate with that one.Quote from: NoMoreMagicSmoke on May 21, 2023, 04:55:37 amI saw your thread, that's why I'm skeptical of the ET stuff. I was hoping the bench meters were better than the ET432.I want the Tonghui TH2830, primarily because it sounds reliable and comes with good quality fixtures, but it's $825, and it will ship super slow.I like the range of the MCR-5200, but it doesn't come with great fixtures, and it's $626. If I buy nicer fixtures, it will cost as much or more than the Tonghui.I like the price of the ET4510 ($475 on Amazon), but same deal with mediocre fixtures, and maybe not great real world specs/reliability.Why doesn't Siglent have a $400 LCR bench meter out yet with the same specs as the TH2832? 🙄

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 08:29:29 pm
content: When siglent would offer a lcr-benchmeter, I couldn´t imagine it will cost 400 bucks...ET benchmeter:I had a ET4410 (100khz), thinking about to buy it again for finishing reverse engineering I´ve started(sold it as I got the chance to buy a (defective) hioki LCR).Tested it against our calibrated lcrs at work, a keysight handheld U1733C and a sourcetronic bench-lcr, which is 100% identical to the mentioned Tonghui...Two threads I´ve started, a kind of review of the ET4410:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/east-tester-et4410-desktop-lcr-meter/msg3989009/#msg3989009ET4410 ESR measures:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/east-tester-et4410-esr-measure/msg4282126/#msg4282126

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 10:01:48 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 21, 2023, 08:29:29 pmSiglent would definitely offer something nice under $500. I'd bet up to $1 USD on that. 😉I actually read your threads in their entirety, which is why I'm tempted by the ET4410 for about $232 on ali. I was considering the ET4510, butit costs twice as muchfound one for about $340, and I don't need the smaller stepping, and I don't think I need to go under 100Hz.My use is most commonly for guitar and pro audio component testing (most often for testing before building, less often for repair). Inductance mostly of guitar pickups, wah wah inductors, etc.The price is the most attractive part of the ET4410, but the higher quality/range and fixtures that come with the TH2830 are really tempting. I'll probably end up buying both and returning one..or not. TEAS is gonna kill my wallet.BTW- I'm curious, what was your impression of the kelvin probes that came with the ET4410? Are they reasonable on their own, or did they get tossed immediately?Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2023, 10:25:32 pm
content: Hi Josh,I don't have negative memories of them, although I mostly used the Test Fixture (which I borrowed from the sourcetronic lcr).These were the same cables as you can buy them individually for 10...20 bucks.The building quality of the sourcetronic/tonghui is unlikely "better" - But that´s expectable at this price.By the Et4410, the bias voltage is included,by the sourcetronic you must buy it as a option (don´t know if the tonghui got it for free).For this (sourcetronic)you can buy a software, which probably also works...Good chances that it will work with the tonghui also.BTW, sourcetronic:Accessories which should also fits to the tonghui:https://www.sourcetronic.com/shop/en/lcr-meters/accessories/Our sourcetronic bench-lcr:https://www.sourcetronic.com/shop/en/lcr-meters/st2830/Edit:Correction:This is the 100% similar device:https://www.sourcetronic.com/shop/en/lcr-meter-st2832.html

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 12:16:53 am
content: We have Tonghui, B&K and No-Name LCR fixtures, the Tonghui are definitely in a different class. The BNCs, cable, cable termination/splitting, Kelvin clips, utilized are considerably better overall than the No-Name equivalents.For example the Tonghui Kelvin clips are smaller, have cable strain reliefs, no heat shrink, the cable entry on each "arm" derived from a short ~10" small thin, colored coaxial cable exiting from a cover/box which covers the main ~30" thicker cable splitting into 4 colored coaxial cables. The main thick cable enters a fixture/box with strain relief which hosts the 4 quality BNC connectors, no fiddling with 4 separate BNC connector/cables involved. These are the best Kelvin clips/fixture we've come across, and suspect others are rebranding such.The B&K leaded BNC Fixture is OK, but not as nice as the Tonghui, but does have more adapters which are convenient.The No-Names like the individual Kelvin Clips with BNCs are OK, and a good value. We've reworked a pair of these to work with our DMMs adding Banana jacks instead of BNCs.Like we've said; "Sometimes you get more, seldom much more, often less than you paid for"Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 02:10:42 am
content: It sounds like the Tonghui is the best deal, considering the quality of the meter and the fixtures. I think I'm going to order the TH2830 from aliexpress. I emailed tonghui about getting it in the US, we'll see if they respond before I get impatient and place an order.Thanks,Josh

author: EE4all
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 02:43:15 am
content: Be sure to report back either way. I am curious who their official reseller is.

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 10:19:48 am
content: I'm also interested in your experience with the TH2830 once you get it

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 02:40:23 pm
content: Quote from: EE4all on May 22, 2023, 02:43:15 amWell...I emailed them this:"I’m interested in purchasing a TH2830 LCR meter. I live in the United States. Where should I buy the meter from? I’m also curious, I assume the firmware is upgradeable, where can I get the newest firmware from?"Their response:"If you are interested in our 2830 machine, you can buy the machine directly with us. The firmware is upgradeable, if you need the latest firmware version, you can ask us for it."Naturally, they didn't include a price or a link for the firmware. 🙄 So, I responded asking for a price quote, and a link for the firmware. We'll see what they say. I also filled out a price request on their website. It appears their only official seller for the US, is themselves.I hope their price isn't crazy. I found a reputable seller on aliexpress that offered me the TH2830 with DHL express shipping for $780. That's pretty tempting.I'm used to dealing with Siglent, who is usually really good about making the firmware available. This whole "ask us for it" thing rubs me the wrong way.Quote from: pope on May 22, 2023, 10:19:48 amlol me too. 😉 I'll definitely post my experience with it.Thanks,Josh

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2023, 04:29:15 pm
content: I have the ET4410. Seemy other postfor pictures. I don't have the DE-5000, so I can't compare. But I like it. It starts fast and is easy to use. Display is good. Price is what I could afford for hobby use. Maybe for pro use, I would recommend a more expensive meter. Depends on actual needs.Resistance is very consistent compared to my Agilent 34401A. They seem to be within 0.02% of each other (measured a batch of resistors a few different values). The 34401A has higher resolution and more digits, so sometimes it's more useful for resistance measurement (but that's beginning of metrology territory). An example (100R 0.1% resistors):ET4410 33401A99.97 99.950299.98 99.9673100.00 99.9802100.02 100.0007100.02 100.0041The Agilent isn't calibrated, so I don't know which instrument to trust more, but this is very little difference and it's consistent also in other ranges.The Kelvin clips supplied with the ET4410 can't be compared with expensive clips, but work actually fine and are better than some really cheap ebay Kelvin clips that I use with the 34401A. If you are using it professionally, then it's probably worth buying some pro clips. Now I want to get some better Kelvin clips for the 34401A, the ones I have are actually crap.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 01:32:19 pm
content: Quote from: JohanH on May 22, 2023, 04:29:15 pmI saw your thread as well. Between you, Martin72, and the tediousness of communicating with Tonghui, I'm tempted to get the ET4410. I can get it for $232. But, still, the fixtures, etc.I heard back from Tonghui:"The price for TH2830 is $ 965 (exclude the transportation expense), the machine is already with the latest firmware."I responded:"Why is it less expensive on aliexpress? They told me $780 with express shipping. also, I like the Siglent company. They make firmware and support easier. It is odd to me to make the firmware hard to get. Unfortunately, Siglent doesn't make LCR meters."Now I wait again and see if they respond.In the meantime, another seller with a decent rating on ali has offered my the TH2830 for $650 with DHL shipping. I might just go for that. 🤔Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2023, 09:24:15 pm
content: 780$...965$...The sourcetronic ST2832 cost 1700€....and it´s the same.So for me it wouldn´t be a question to buy the Tonghui or not, but "unfortunately" I have a hioki LCR(I have to reassemble after repair)...I know the DE5000, I know the ET4410, I know the "little" (but more expensive) brother of the Tonghui and this would be my ranking:DE5000 - "Best" handheld you can get for appx 150 bucks, good accuracy.ET4410 - Cheap but good benchmeter, slightly better than DE5000, more features like list function, scpi command set, dc-bias voltage, higher testvoltage (selectable), more selectable testfrequency steps (15).ST2830 - Next step when ET4410 is not enough in building quality, slightly more precise measurements in general.TH2830(ST2832) - Would be my personal favorite with testfrequencies up to 200khz and dc-bias voltage avaible, plus the accuracy and build quality of the ST2830, but cheaper...weird.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 01:21:19 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 23, 2023, 09:24:15 pmI think the model numbers are directly related. For example, TH2830 = ST2830, TH2832 = ST2832 etc. I think it's one of those things where you can buy a certain quantity and Tonghui will rebrand it for you.The TH2830 also only goes to 100kHz, but the TH2832 goes to 200kHz.I like the DE5000 also, I still have mine.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 11:32:03 am
content: and the 2831 is less precisewut ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 12:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on May 24, 2023, 11:32:03 amIt's listed as EOL on their website. Maybe the older version of the TH2832? That would be my guess.

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 12:51:24 pm
content: How about these? They seem impossible to buy them in EU...https://www.szmatrix.com/collections/lcr-meter

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 01:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: pope on May 24, 2023, 12:51:24 pmI was considering them, but I don't like the display or front panel design. I also watched some videos on the MCR-5X00, and getting to different test modes is clunky in the menu. That, and it's really close in price for me to the TH2830, but doesn't come with the nice fixtures the TH2830 comes with. I do like the range of the MCR-5200, but it's also listed as .1% accuracy, whereas the TH2830 is .05%. If there was a bigger price gap, I would consider it.The newer MCR-6000 series has a nicer screen and better accuracy and range than the 5000 series, but it's more expensive than the Tonghui. Also not really available yet. Maybe in a year or something they'd be a better deal.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2023, 03:07:07 pm
content: I didn't hear back from Tonghui, so I bit the bullet and bought it from one of the sellers I was considering on aliexpress. Now I get to waitimpatiently until it arrives from China.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2023, 01:31:08 pm
content: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣Well, apparently, the seller I chose NOT to purchase from was the correct choice. I was tempted because they offered the TH2830 to me for only $650 including shipping. Which sounded too good to be true. Naturally, I was skeptical. I asked them to send me photos of the actual product, to confirm it was genuine Tongui, and brand new. They sent me screenshots from their ad. 🙄So I told them:"I'm purchasing from another seller that's been around longer, with more feedback. Best of luck, thanks anyway."They responded (copied and pastedsixteen timeslike a child): "You are an idle person, asking me countless questions, and I also replied to you to cancel the order in the end.You are not a real businessman, you are a dishonest It takes me so much time and energy to reply to so many of your questions You are just a loser without anyone's credibility and integrity"Needless to say, avoid "EVERGOOD INSTRUMENTS Store" at all costs. They've been on aliexpress for less than a year, and they are clearly not trustworthy. I'm glad I dodged that bullet.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 10:09:16 pm
content: Good news and bad news.The good: The seller shipped fast with DHL express, I received it today.The bad news: the unit appears to be used.The other bad news: the reason these aren't commonly sold in the US is it appears they require 220V power. That wasn't listed in the ad, and the pics of the unit weren't clear enough to see that.No snarky RTFM comments please. 🙄

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 10:36:05 pm
content: When our sourcetronic arrived from calibration, I could look inside if there is a input voltage switch avaible.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 10:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on May 29, 2023, 10:09:16 pmInteresting about only 220VAC, ours was requested for 120VAC, assured it would be so, and works fine on such and came with standard US 120V plug. You should ask Tonghui about this, maybe there's a jumper inside to set to 120VAC?Good luck with yours,Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2023, 11:47:02 pm
content: Thanks guys, hopefully you're right. Worst case if I get stuck with it, I could hopefully find a replacement transformer.The seller thinks it works with 120V, but the back panel and manual don't agree.It's possible there's a dual voltage transformer inside, but there's also a "calibration void if seal is broken" sticker on the back panel of the enclosure.The fact that they lied about it being new is annoying too.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 12:42:39 am
content: Ok, couldn't resist to help out. Took the TH2830 out of series and took the cover off (easy 3 screws), no Cal label to deal with!!The special transformer has 4 wires from the primary, red, blue, black, and yellow/green (ground/shield). One shows 110VAC, the other 220VAC and in series with the other.Note the short red wire jumper in the white connector with the red and blue wires that go to the AC input & fuse connector, this likely is the jumper that sets up for 110VAC or 220VAC operation.If you open yours, take a look and see if the red jumper is in place? You could buzz out the connections to see if the assessment above is correct. Does the seller know anything regarding this mains setup?Anyway, I wouldn't do anything before contacting Tonghui, and does look like you'll be able to configure for 110VAC use. However, please don't do anything without some conformation from Tonghui as we certainly don't want a fried lab LCR meter on our handsBest,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 12:45:04 am
content: Another view.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 12:59:08 am
content: Thank you. Assuming it has the same transformer and connections, I would disconnect the clips and verify the output voltage before reconnecting them to the board. However, I'm not in a rush to pull the back panel and cut the sticker yet. I want the seller to resolve the used vs. new issue also.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 02:26:22 am
content: Does anybody know if the TH2830 has a usage stats thing in the menu somewhere? Like how many hours it has been used, or how many times it has been turned on?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 04:00:05 am
content: This appears simpler than expected.I buzzed out the connections, and they are as follows:2A to 3A3B to 4B1A to 1B2A to 5B3A to 5B4A to 6BC shows reference voltages:C1 and C4 = 12VACC6 and C7 = 7VACComparing Mike's jumper wire, it's as simple as moving the jumper wire on mine from B6 to B5 (my jumper was connecting B4 to B6, Mike's is B4 to B5).Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 04:19:28 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on May 30, 2023, 12:42:39 amTHANK YOU!!!Swapping the jumper wire (see above) did the trick. I tested the secondaries for the marked voltage, and pins 6 and 7 had 8.9377VAC unloaded, and pins 1 and 4 showed 2.6634VAC. Maybe it really says 1.2VAC instead of 12VAC, or maybe it's 12VAC when actually powered on. 🤷This test showed that the transformer is pushing that voltage to pins 6 and 7 even when the unit is powered off. I'll be shutting this off with my surge protector when my bench isn't in use.Anyway, I reconnected the PT secondary to the PCB, and it powered up. Thankfully it didn't take too much effort to change it to English. Now to learn how to use it. 🤣Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 04:56:41 am
content: Okay, first of all, the fixtures are legit. They're as heavy as some of my meters lol.I calibrated with the TH26048A fixture, and tested a cap:UKZ2A220MPM 22uF 100V electrolytic cap.100Hz:TH2830 said: 20.0353uF, ESR=2.97802 ohmDE5000 said: 20.06uF, ESR=2.9 ohmShannon tweezers said: 19.97uF, ESR=2.7 ohmThe reading on the TH2830 isn't super stable. Is that normal? It's only the last digits shifting.What are your firmware versions? Mine says v1.0 at startup. I'm guessing that's not awesome?Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 01:49:42 pm
content: Nice, good newsOurs is also V 1.00, so no worries!! It's also stable, we exclusively use the "Slow" speed and Avg 16 (see Measure Setup Menu) since we're not a production line.Also turn Vm/Im ON (Setup Menu) so you can "see" the DUT measurement Voltage and Current. Very important feature that few folks utilize, as this helps the knowledgable user regarding the quality of the measurement at hand, with a very low DUT voltage or low current, one should question the displayed result!!Please, please spend some serious time understanding how these bench lab grade quality LCR meters operate, and how they compute the various displayed parameters from the DUT voltage and current (vectors) measurements, this knowledge is important if one expects to utilize these fine instruments to their fullest extent!!Now get yourself some quality caps, ceramic C0G/NP0 only, film types like Polystyrene or Polypropylene (not mylar), and some mica types. These will come in handy to verify that something hasn't gone astray with future measurements if you make some quality early measurements and keep a record of such, when something doesn't seem right then check with a known good capacitor as a sanity check.Here's a good source in the US we've used, lots of surplus selections on all sorts of capacitors and other items.https://www.surplussales.com/GuestTools/shoppingcart.htmlAlso consider building the DC Bias adapter, details here.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/bias-network-for-lcr-meter/And of course sooner to later (likely sooner) you'll want to employ your new lab grade bench LCR meter for SMD devices (you can use the DC Bias adapter with this also), so get yourself one of these and modify as we've shown.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-smd-lcr-fixture-the-good-bad-and-ugly!/msg4539458/#msg4539458Then you'll likely want the nice plots you've seen from these bench type LCR meters, which you can probably buy the software from somewhere (expensive from Tonghui ?), or just purchase the crude Python code versions we created (maybe spruce it up a little!!), this only cost a brewhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-meter-plot-software/msg4774100/#msg4774100Edit: Forgot to mention, check out the frequency resolution it's not just 37 points as indicated in the manual. Try this, enter 12345 and Hz using the keypad, and note the display it's 12.345KHz, or 987.654Hz, or 31415Hz! It's DDS driven, niceHave funBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 02:32:22 pm
content: Thanks for your help and the tips!I already have plenty of caps for reference, not sure about the ceramic types though. I'll get some if I need to. I'll make a reference chart with a set of specific caps, and cross check them on the DE5000 and Shannon tweezers.For SMT stuff, for now I'm just going to keep using the Shannon tweezers, but I may setup a SMT fixture also in the future.Thanks for the tips on the measure setup- Avg 16 is much more stable, and I'm sure plenty accurate enough for my needs.I turned on Vm/Im, what do you consider very low?I wonder, has anybody done a hardware comparison between the TH2830 and TH2832? What I really wonder is if there's any difference between them besides their firmware and the sticker on the front.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 02:59:27 pm
content: Just measure an open and short, that will give you an idea of what's to be considered as low for current (open) and voltage (short). Note you can change the output Z to 30 ohms for high current use with low impedance DUTs, and the output voltage to 2 volts for high impedance DUTs. Also study up on the ALC use (3.5.2), which can maintain a constant Voltage or Current for the DUT.Edit: CAUTION, this instrument can deliver 2 volts RMS and 67ma RMS to the DUT, so some caution is advised when evaluating sensitive DUT characteristics.Anyway, lots of useful features and whatnot in these instruments, and lots of details to learn to use properlyBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 10:37:52 pm
content: I setup a test with 3 LCRs and 3 other meters. Results attached.The Siglent and Amprobe meters agree a lot. Even their BS numbers when trying to measure in the pF were similar.The ESR numbers marked unstable were wonky. They had a fairly large range they cycled through. I assume it would be easier at a lower frequency, but 1k it was.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 10:44:37 pm
content: Testfrequency is missing..Comparing with a bench DMM is a little bit "unfair" because I strongly doubt that the DMM use the same measure method like the LCRs do.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 11:09:55 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 30, 2023, 10:44:37 pmTest frequency for the LCRs is 1kHz (noted on the spreadsheet). It wasn't really intended to be fair for the other meters, they were just added for reference. I don't think it's generally fair to compare C measurement on a DMM anyway. It's just nice that they say something. Though I found it interesting how close the 2 DMMs were, in their measurements and failures.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2023, 11:59:25 pm
content: Josh, didn't your meter come with the front and rear rubber bumper guards?Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 12:05:57 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on May 30, 2023, 11:59:25 pmHaha, yeah, I had to remove the bumper guards so both meters would fit under that shelf. I'll eventually make a taller shelf with more stuff going on to organize my bench, and the bumpers might go back on the meters. The thing is that I'm tempted to put the SDG2122X on the bench too if I can come up with a reason to need a better AWG than what's on my scope. I was considering setting up a rack, but I dunno if I'll go that route. I kinda like the way the stuff is now.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 12:13:42 am
content: I tested a bunch of guitar pickups, I really like this meter. I used Ls-Rd for L and DCR at 100Hz, then switched to Cs at 100kHz. Much simpler workflow than clunking through the DE5000.Here's a couple of them.Pickup 1:DE5000:4.11H7.493kΩ126.98pFTH2830:4.10479H7.47774kΩ143.844pFPickup 2:DE5000:3.578H8.08kΩ128.59pFTH2830:3.57755H8.05381kΩ128.415pF

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 06:08:40 pm
content: I ordered some generic kelvin clips from ali. I tried one set on the TH2830 and compared them to the TH26011CS.I made an exciter coil to test guitar pickups with an AWG and scope. This is the coil being measured (on the TH2830).TH26011CS:Ls 22.9412μHRd 117.879mΩGeneric:Ls 24.4134μHRd 116.482mΩThat's not too bad. So I chopped the cable and converted the TL-22 to kelvin clips for the DE5000.Tested a "tropical fish" film capacitor, 1kHz, 1V.DE5000:Kelvin:26.2nF21.1Ω (stable)TL-21:26.2nF18.8Ω (unstable)TH2830:TH26011CS:26.1860nF22.7711ΩAnd now the DE5000 can go back to living in the meter drawer.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 07:53:08 pm
content: When I click on your spreadsheet results in reply #47 I only see a picture of your DE5000.The results from a DMM for the value of an electrolytic is not really comparable to the results from an LCR meter. See this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/about-capacitance-measurement-with-dvms/msg489690/#msg489690

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 08:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: The Electrician on May 31, 2023, 07:53:08 pmClick lower. 😉I included the DMMs only because that was an improvised reference set of caps to see if my meters drift over time. I figured I might as well include the DMMs in there. I'll eventually do the same thing with a set of resistors.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 08:29:41 pm
content: Click lower. 😉Here's what I see to click on. If I click on the thumbnail image of the spreadsheet, or if I click on the text description below that, either way I see a picture of your DE5000.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 08:40:44 pm
content: Quote from: The Electrician on May 31, 2023, 08:29:41 pmWeird! Maybe your browser cache is messing with you?That doesn't happen for me.Anyway, it's the same as the image in the post anyway. You can right-click it and open it in a new window if you want it bigger.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 08:48:51 pm
content: Those TH2830 / TH2832 look mighty interesting. Only thing they don't have is external DC bias which would be handy to have (up to 25V or so).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 09:02:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 31, 2023, 08:48:51 pmDon't worry, Mike has a project for that 😉:Quote from: mawyatt on May 30, 2023, 01:49:42 pmI've only ever tested at 1V. Can somebody enlighten me to a situation that higher voltage would be helpful?Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 09:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 31, 2023, 08:48:51 pmYes, the devices from tonghui/sourcetronic fill a gap between the very cheap ones from e.g. East Tester and the "big" ones from R&S, Keysight.But also GWInstek, they want to have real money for their bench meters(up to 40000€..).For a device with 100khz you are then over 2000€(LC6100):https://www.reichelt.de/lcr-meter-lcr-6100-digital-100-khz-lcr-6100-p176048.html?PROVID=2788&gclid=Cj0KCQjw4NujBhC5ARIsAF4Iv6ff_KhaDAcTg5XskuzXJL9vq7spJnW3kFPT8r6sOFUQJdisplwnWVkaAnZCEALw_wcBWhereby that is not better, only more expensive. And it looks very similar...Our "Tonghui" (Sourcetronic) is as already said, very well made and exists for 3 years every external calibration without having to be readjusted.QuoteAFAIK for some types of caps.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 09:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on May 31, 2023, 09:02:45 pmIt is handy for checking whether MLCC capacitors meet their spec and/or how much they vary under DC bias. Selecting the right MLCC capacitor for a circuit can be a tedious job.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2023, 11:13:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 31, 2023, 09:36:25 pmExactly, one of the many reasons we developed the DC Bias adapter awhile back. This works really well, and with the SMD fixtures also mentioned, one can quickly access how a ceramic cap behaves, or misbehavesWe found even the quality Samsung MLCC vary, mostly due to the ceramic formula utilized tho. Another interesting use is studying the reverse and slightly forward bias PN junction equivalent capacitance vs voltage, and a zener when entering breakdown.The usual electrolytic and tantalum caps are also worth investigating.One very interesting topic we haven't seen discussed is investigated the Miller Capacitive effect in bipolar and Mosfet transistors under certain bias conditions, this is on our "to do" list when we get some free time.Anyway, after some research, we were one of the early adopters of this TH2830, and not disappointed in the acquisition decision awhile back. Now we've developed some plotting routines which produce nice plots, this is icing on the cakePretty sure some of the upper tier equipment suppliers are using Tonghui as a source, some of the fixtures look quite similar if not exactly like Tonghui fixtures, except they cost much morehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/bias-network-for-lcr-meterhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-smd-lcr-fixture-the-good-bad-and-uglyhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-meter-plot-softwareBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2023, 12:07:17 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on May 31, 2023, 11:13:59 pmThe Tonghui fixtures aren't cheap either though. 🤣I think the normal price for the TH26007A or TH26008A is around $350, but you can find it for half that (taking the gamble whether it's real or not). The real ones usually have 4 connector levers, the fake ones usually only have the outer 2...still a gamble though.EDIT: Holy crap, Batman! I just saw what Hioki charges for the same thing. 🤯🤯🤯

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2023, 01:25:16 am
content: If you do your research you can find some genuine Tonghui fixtures at reasonable prices, we got TH26009B Tweezers that are OEM. We don't use them very often, altho they are good to 15MHz!!Yep, the Hioki equipment is expensive, thankfully all the Tonghui fixtures fit and work fine on the IM3536, we made absolute sure of that before orderingThe cheaper no-name SMD fixtures seem OK, especially if you check out, tighten and mod them as we've shown. We fooled around with one and tried to see if we could use it for temperature sweeps by raising the plunger mechanism above the top surface plate and use a chassis mount 10W resistor as the heating element for the DUT. The chip is placed on the top surface of the resistor insulated by polyamide tape, and thermistor is attached just above the DUT area with thermally conductive tape. This kinda worked OK for static temperature tests, but wasn't repeatable for sweeps, and we abandoned the concept. The main issue was the plunger prongs would conduct heat away from DUT and you needed to wait much too long for thermal equilibrium. We even tried to "cheat" by measuring the DUT temperature with a chip thermistor as the DUT, this is how we knew the DUT temperature relative to the heating resistor mounted thermistor, and fitting a polynomial to estimate the actual DUT temperature vs sweeps, but too much uncertainty for our liking, so idea was trashed. Steady state could work but would require very long wait time between temperature changes for acceptable repeatability, too long for our patienceBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2023, 05:29:37 pm
content: In case anybody cares, the fan in the TH2830 isn't quiet. It's a lower pitch, but sounds about as loud as the fan in my SDS2504XP. I feel like getting quieter fans for both devices. I don't have a real dB meter yet, so I haven't tested actual levels.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2023, 06:19:14 pm
content: If you feel the TH2830 fan is loud, don't consider a Hioki IM3536, it sounds like a jet engineBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2023, 06:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on June 01, 2023, 06:19:14 pmThat fan noise is part of it's $5000 charm, right? If it came with a $20 quiet fan, they'd have to charge an extra $1000. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2023, 10:05:07 pm
content: Hm...AFAIK my hioki didn´t have a fan...Tonghui/Sourcetronic:Our ST2830 went back from external calibration, could upload the cal.-report(of course without names/adresses) when it´s interesting.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2023, 10:41:21 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 01, 2023, 06:32:08 pmThis is normal too!! You would think at that price point Hioki would have"paid"more attention to the fan noiseCan you imagine if Siglent or Rigol had something this expensive with that level of fan noise,"fan"boys and girls would have a field day with them!!However it is 80 times higher frequency (8MHz vs 100KHz) than the TH2830, so guess they needed to use some higher power consumption components (probably expensive too) and thus the higher thru-put fan, and a much more difficult design task!!Anyway, not happy about the Hioki fan noise, but otherwise it's a superb performer. It's earned it's keep, because when we needed those higher frequency measurements, they needed to be spot on and the Hioki deliveredNote:"Puns"intendedBest,

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2023, 12:02:31 am
content: I've been really happy with my TH2811D. No fan, and it offers a few different test frequencies and voltages. At $400-$500 it satisfies the $500 budget constraint. Might be worth considering if you don't actually need to do everything the TH2830 will do.Edit: nvm, I see your search ended successfully.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2023, 12:23:24 am
content: I don't need this right now, but I'm curious. How much do you guys pay for your external calibration? What's normal for that?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2023, 12:44:51 am
content: A sound meter app on my phone, with the phone about 6 inches away from the TH2830:Room noise average: 45dBAverage with TH2830 powered on: 57dB

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2023, 03:03:07 pm
content: What mains fuses do you have in your TH2830 using 120VAC? It occurred to me I probably need to change it since this was setup for 220V.Thanks,Josh

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2023, 07:26:10 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 02, 2023, 03:03:07 pmAssuming the fuse value is correct for the 220VAC, I would use a 2x this value for 120vac.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2023, 08:30:40 pm
content: Quote from: pope on June 02, 2023, 07:26:10 pmThanks. I too assumed this, but since I don't know if the fuse value is correct, I figured I should ask. 😉EDIT: I'm just going to leave the 500mA slow blow that was in there. It seems to run fine with it, and that already seems high compared to my DMM. My DMM doesn't specify different fuses for different wall voltage. 🤷

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2023, 02:38:06 pm
content: So, this is dumb, but anyway... The other day I figured out you don't need to go to the setup menu to make changes to the measurement choices. You can do that by moving the arrows on the measurement screen. Oh well. I know, RTFM, but also, meh. 😉This is awesome, because the extra steps in some of the other models I was considering is what helped me choose the TH2830.