Electronics Hobby Work in Rented Apartment - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Endolaylith
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 06:41:50 am
content: Hi Everyone,I live in an apartment complex and are a renter. I would like to set up a hobby level electronics workstation but need some advice on the legalities/risks etc. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience as to if this kind of activity would cause a problem for me with my landlord/rental manager?Thanks,Dan

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 06:49:18 am
content: What sort of issue do you expect? Some activities might have an adverse effect on insurance. But I assume you're not doing anything that dangerous so if you break something you pay.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 07:08:24 am
content: I'm not a legal expert nor are most others in this forum.I can pretty confidently say that within reason you are not going to have any problems at all. Electronics is a perfectly legal hobby and it is nobody's business but yours what legal activities you engage in within your own home. Just do your thing, don't be stupid and let others mind their own business.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 07:15:32 am
content: A landlord should only be interested in their property being looked after. Electronics is no more a risk than many other hobbies - and it's a whole lot safer than a candle.

author: atmfjstc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 11:15:22 am
content: (Not a lawyer etc)Well, some landlords out there are fascistic enough to find fault with you no matter what you do. If a landlord had it in for you, one of the things they could try is make a case that you are running a business from your rented apartment, which is not permitted by some renting contracts or even by the laws in some countries.Assuming and hoping this is not the case for you, you should otherwise be fine. It would help if you kept your workbench clean and professional when the landlord comes visiting, as well as not having anything on it that looks like a bomb.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2020, 11:30:43 am
content: Quote from: Endolaylith on February 29, 2020, 06:41:50 amFor Victoria (other States might vary) there is a right to 'Quiet and Peaceful Enjoyment' this applies to you and to those around you so noise, smells or danger to others would be a nono. It also entitles you to Fair use without intrusion into your daily activities and life by the Landlord or Agent.** If however during an inspection you have Ferric Chloride in open tubs or burn marks in the Carpets you might get one of thesehttps://www.tenantsvic.org.au/advice/when-you-get-a-breach-of-duty-notice/(lots of other good advice off this link) Even then you can not just be evicted but you will be expected to make good on any damage or possibly have to put in an appearance at VCAT (not that scary and it works both ways).I have spent several decades Renting doing Electronics building R/C Aircraft and apart from having to chat about the 'stuff' to the Agent or Landlord it has never been an issue.

author: ender4171
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 07:39:50 pm
content: As long as you aren't modifying the house/apartment wiring, I don't see any reason for anyone to complain. Certainly no legal issues. Now, if you manage to burn the place down from a project gone wrong, then I can see your landlord being less than pleased, lol.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 07:53:00 pm
content: The biggest problem I am aware of is damage to the surfaces of counters and floors. Lead clippings are sharp and scratch many common materials. Solder splashes when de-soldering have a tendency to search out the easiest melting surface around and easily become embedded in carpets.The solution to these issues is to put down a protective cover over the landlords property. A painters tarp (the old school linen or canvas ones) does this nicely. With that and being careful not to start any fires you should be set.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 10:48:58 pm
content: I've lived in an apartment complex as a renter for quite a few years, doing electronics as a hobby. Zero issues, ever.The one thing not mentioned yet is fumes. Very strong odors (tobacco smoke being a particular example) can embed into wallpaper and other fabrics and porous materials.Because I have asthma due to long-term exposure to formaldehyde as a kid (wet particle board on my bedroom walls, long story) as well as tobacco smoke (indoor smoking parents) -- certain irritants in my airways leads to a very strong inflammatory reaction --, I have always soldered in my kitchen under my stove hood. Now, I am building an activated carbon air filter hood, from a couple of cheap plastic tubs. (Looking for best bang for buck for the filters right now; I'd prefer the ones with powdered activated carbon in them.)I already have a large heat-resistant silicone soldering mat, an even larger thin steel sheet for protecting my own laminated wood table surfaces and to use as a grounding point, as well as a dissipative (ESD) mat for the components, and so on.I do also have a foam core aluminium sheet and a very large cutting board, either of which I could use if I were to use one of the melamine surfaces that belong to the landlord, as a final thermally isolating surface. Although melamine is quite heat resistant, it does discolor easily due to heat. I prefer solid laminated wood or plywood (birch, cherry, or oak), protected only by a mix of mineral oil and beeswax. Although something like poly finish would protect surfaces much better, I like the feel, and the finish is very easy to fix/resurface by sanding and reapplying the wax/paste. If ordinary wood glue is used, such surfaces are chemically absolutely safe (food safe). Plus, I like the beeswax scent. I make my own wax/paste, too.As I said, my fume hood is still incomplete. I also need to do the same for my 3D printer. The built-in smoke alarm in this apt is very sensitive, I can't even fry bacon on the stove without it triggering... but I don't mind having a slightly too sensitive one to a nonworking one, all considered.I still need some kind of magnets or magnetic tray for clippings, when shortening leads on through-hole components. I typically use a transparent bag to contain the clippings (cutting leads inside a clear transparent plastic bag), but the problem is, if they just fly around in there, they tend to stick to my hands when cutting something else. I'm not worried about the floor so much, really, but since we don't wear shoes indoors here, theyalwaysseem to end up stuck to the soles of my feet, which is ouch and therefore very unwanted.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:46:30 am
content: Hi Dan;Well to get the obligatory "I'm not a lawyer" phase out of the way, I'm not! I'm also in the USA so that is a factor.I'm going to say it depends. I spent some time in apartments and actually engaged in a couple of different hobbies. This never became a problem, at least until the gal upstairs started coming down to "waste" my time.Why I say it depends is pretty simple, if you are going to build and use a 100 watt HAM rig that will likely cause problems. Same thing if you build a CNC machine and run it at 3:00AM.On the other hand if you are building simple projects I really doubt that anybody cares. That is as long as the product isn't AC line interactive in some way. A complex might have issues with things plugged in to the electrical system that are not UL listed. Since most electronics these days are powered by commercial listed power supplies you will be OK.In other words stay off the gird and don't piss off your neighbors!Quote from: Endolaylith on February 29, 2020, 06:41:50 am

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:34:32 am
content: Wizard69 really hit on a good point. There are large numbers of electronic projects that are NOT suitable for apartment dwellers. Wizard69 mentioned a couple. High power audio amps come to mind. Several things other than ham radio hit the interference button pretty hard and should be avoided. Tesla Coils and Jacob's Ladders are examples. Other projects hit both interference and property damage warning bells. EM guns, high power lasers and welding machines.Think it through. If someone can tell you are doing it from outside the apartment you probably shouldn't.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:45:11 am
content: Which is why we have this in our lawshttps://www.lawreform.vic.gov.au/content/4-right-quiet-enjoymentin Victoria at least in Oz which depending on the OP's State will likely have a similar version.It is a two way set of ideas for a fair go for the tenant and landlord and those around them.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 01:47:35 am
content: I wholeheartedly agree with wizard69 and CatalinaWOW above; I just see them as integral to living in an apartment like a human, and nothing to do with hobbies or electronics!I used to have a neighbor who had some kind of woodworking or metalworking shop in their apartment, causing hellish noise (comparable to a jackhammer; their impact drill resonated throughout the structure of the building) at random times of day. Police could not do anything, as the noise would only continue for 15 minutes or so (and it would anyway boil down to the landlord to act); and because the noisemakers were disabled, the landlord (a large company) didn't want to evict them due to how it would look in media. I moved.As curmudgeonly as I might be, I'd absolutely hate to cause that much suffering to anyone; even my worst enemy, if I had any.(As an example, I run my noisy coffee maker on top of rubber on top of a "bread board" with soft rubber legs, to stop the low-frequency pump noise from traveling through the building structures. Banging and other impact noises, as well as low-frequency sounds like pumps can transmit well in building structures even if normal sounds are well dampened/insulated; in some cases the sounds can be much louder in the next apartment. I use foam/felt furniture pads at the end of my tables etc., for example, so that when they collide to the wall occasionally, the pad will absorb the noise. All of my cupboards and drawers have silicone dampener pads, and so on.)

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 04:53:21 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 06, 2020, 01:34:32 amThe other sticky you run into is if a neighbor works nights in an apartment complex. The amount of noise they may be able to tolerate will be different in the middle of the day. That can cause unhappiness even if the noise isn't excessive for the day time.It is also good that you point out EMI as that is the unheard noise that can frustrate people.

author: Endolaylith
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:11:47 am
content: Thanks for the insight everyone it has really helped.I will only be working on low voltage DC stuff with logic circuits and plastic 3d printed structure and mechanical components for robotics. I have an activated carbon desks filter with fan and the room is very well ventilated.So basically:- Soldering- 3d Printing plastic (PLA)- Hot melt glue gun- Heat gun- Small desktop A4 cnc engraver for pcb milling (I am going to see if i can put it in a sound proof box, if too loud i will probably abort)Note: I really dislike the chemical enchant pcb method.So really nothing considered more dangerous than what people do when cooking.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:49:43 am
content: PWB Mills can be quite loud, but you may still be able to use it by talking neighbors and finding a time which isn't objectionable.Of course most people just order their boards nowdays.

author: mcovington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 08:05:47 pm
content: Assuming you mean ordinary low-power electronics (not mighty Tesla coils or the like), electronics is much safer than, for example, burning candles frequently. It's perfectly permissible in a rented apartment.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 04:54:19 am
content: IMHO PCB mills are largely a waste of time. I still etch PCBs once in a while but it's only when I want a simple prototype and don't want to wait. Otherwise it's so absurdly cheap to have boards made, I get 5 boards from JLC PCB for around $7 shipped to my door. It's practically free.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 06:35:04 am
content: The problem with mills and drills in an apartment are twofold:EMI due to unshielded brushes, and to a much lesser effect, wires acting as radiating antennaeNoise conducted through the building structuresThe first one you can protect against by using a grounded conductive mesh around the motor, to act as a Faraday cage. Stepper motors and BLDCs don't seem to radiate nearly as much.The second one you can avoid by insulating the machine from hard surfaces.I use a three-inch thick microcellular plastic foam underneath my HDD dock, as I like quiet, and that also avoids any resonations -- if you've ever compared the sound of a HDD as it runs on a hard table top compared to e.g. in your hand, you know what I'm talking about. (It's that thick, because I had some of that lying around from a Western Digital HDD shipment a few years ago. An inch would suffice. The area is large enough and the foam rigid enough for it to not deform when only the dock is on top of it; and only by a millimeter or two when I put a heavy 3.5" HDD in the dock.)A lot of equipment has rubber feet, but because their surface area is so small, the force due to the mass sitting on top is so high, they need to be quite hard to not deform. Harder materials conduct low-frequency noise better than softer materials. Much larger feet, or a full base, can be much softer; and foam structures are very good at absorbing acoustic energy at most frequencies humans can hear.I am building a silent 3D printer myself right now, with a full enclosure and activated carbon filtering. It will have a thin sheet of steel as the bottom (in case of fire), then a sheet of something to act as a thermal buffer, and then something to stop conducted noise (from the stepper motors). I have an inch-thick sheet of microcellular plastic foam (scavenged from packaging, again; the same ordinary type as is used in packaging and upholstery), which might work well. Note that these efforts are more for my own enjoyment, as these devices standing directly on a tabletop tend to cause the tabletop to act as a resonant surface, amplifying the noise from the stepper motors. A foam sheet as a full base doesn't deform as much as you might think; consider upholstered furniture for example.Indeed, if you happen to live in an apartment where you do not hear your upstairs neighbors even if they walked around in wooden clogs, the way those floors are done is using a floating concrete slab on top of insulating wool (rockwool or glass fiber wool); both layers around four to eight inches thick. The concrete slab is only connected to the building structure through the wool. The different acoustic properties of the layers act as mirrors, with each layer absorbing the energy of different wavelength sounds, making such floors "silent".It is a pity it is "not cost effective" to build all apartment buildings with such floors. Heck, many apartment buildings are still used with continous water and wastewater piping, without "separators" of a different material, that would stop certain bathroom sounds like flushing a toilet from conducting vertically between apartments.Note that in many cases the thickness of the separating layers isn't as important as them being there, due to the acoustic reflections and absorption. Conducted noise (direct contact noise) like banging -- low-frequency noise -- is the hardest, and is best absorbed in foam. Adding thickness to the foam will not do much, so instead of using say one four-inch thick layer of microcellular foam, you can get much better results if you had say two inch-thick layers microcellular foam, with say a quarter-inch plywood sheet in between. Also, there are lots of foams to choose from, from quite rigid to quite soft.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 01:25:19 pm
content: The biggest problem I can see here is audio noise from some of those machines. A PCB mill can be pretty bad. What you do here is to build a sound deadening enclosure around the machine. That CNC can be especially useful for things other than PCB milling but it is likely to be pretty loud.Quote from: Endolaylith on March 07, 2020, 03:11:47 am