any new, affordable small drill press for PCB via drilling options? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 07:57:12 pm
content: So, quite a while ago I posted asking about small drill presses that could be counted on to be precise (not wander) and also not break the bank. I got a bunch of good suggestions, but none that I followed up on because none offered the right balance of size and flexibility within my price bracket (would like to keep cost under $100 including shipping), and I already have a nice small chuck I want to use, which has a light touch attachment wheel for fingertip drilling.) So basically I just need a small drill press, not a chuck.This is just so I can do very small PCBs I am not ashamed to post pictures of. Currently I hand drill holes using a dremel tool and then feed thick copper wire through solder both sides and chop off the excess. its very hard to get them to center perfectly this way.I probably will wait until something of better quality thats used comes up on ebay, or maybe if some urgent need comes up just get the Harbor Freight cheap drill on one of their periodic sales..Why make my own PCBs? Short attention span, basically - or to look at the bright side of it, the short length of time between thinking of something and being able to have it in front of you is just magic for learning faster, for me. Better than any book.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 08:27:51 pm
content: Get a Dremel Workstation press for your Dremel tool, for home built PCB's it quite adequate.https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-220-01-Rotary-Tool-Station/dp/B00068P48OBUT how you layout a PCB has an influence in the accuracy of holes, particularly the pad hole size you intend to drill.Keep all hole sizes in your layoutsmall, I use 20 mil/thou for all pad holes and the smallest drill I use is 24 mil (0.6 mm) and you'll find the copper of the pad/hole edge will help guide the bit to the center of the hole.Now this implies the bit will be bent, it is and therefore it's necessary to use HSS not Tungsten.Don't spin them too fast either, ~ 1/2 max is fast enough.HHS won't give long production type life, but in saying that I've never thrown one away because it's been too blunt to use.I adjust the size of the annular ring for different components and the larger rings signal they require a larger hole.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 09:51:00 pm
content: Take a look at the Proxxon..

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 10:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 28, 2016, 09:51:00 pmWon't help at all if the hole drilling methodology isn't right to start with.Quote from: cdev on December 28, 2016, 07:57:12 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 10:26:50 pm
content: 2N3055,You're probably right in that it likely would be possible for me to make them a bit smaller. Make the doughnut hole guide smaller. Use smaller bits. Also, use fewer vias and only use the top of the board for traces and the bottom for GP. Inductance.. Have to try it out..The Proxxon is nice but too expensive for me right now. Ive heard mixed things about the dremel stand. Some people hate it, other people feel its adequate. There probably is a lot of variation out there in similar products and how they mount, to eliminate wander.I would really like set up some kind of setup like a microscope stage which would allow me to make incremental movements, for example, if I wanted to make a grid of vias at regular intervals, I could.Is the dremel or dremel like stand approach precise enough to make that worthwhile? My drill is actually a Dremel knockoff brand.. Bought at Costco as part of a set.So if I get one, I need to get a stand that adjusts to fit non-Dremel multitools. It might be worth a try.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 10:31:58 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 28, 2016, 08:27:51 pmWorst advise ever. At any speed a HSS drill will be blunt after the first hole in FR4 and will produce bad hole edges which are difficult to solder. Getting Tungsten drills is an absolute necessity.I second the suggestion 2N3055 about the Proxxon drill (+stand). I have drilled thousands of holes with mine in over 2 decades. Getting one from Ebay may be an option.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 10:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 28, 2016, 10:26:50 pmThe Dremel stand I linked has a captured nut as part of the stand that winds onto the thread around the spindle of the Dremel tool. I have no idea what other mounting options were available in earlier models or other brands of tools.The one I linked was just the first found with a Google search to Amazon and @ $40 it priced not too bad compared with what I paid for mine in NZ. Have more of a look, there might be cheaper ones of the same model from other suppliers.When I was looking at a Dremel press there was a much older and more rigid model that AFAIK is no longer available new, however the proof is in the pudding as they say and I've broken zero bits since I've had mine ~3 years.But as previously mentioned HSS bits used.Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2016, 10:31:58 pmHorses for courses Nico, what works for you might not be the best for others.

author: elecman14
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 10:52:32 pm
content: The Dremel Workstation (at least the one I have YMMV) has a large amount of slop in the plastics. Probably would not be a good choice for drilling PCBs.If you venture to your local big box hardware store they usually have an el-chepo drill press for less than $100. This coupled with some carbide drill bits from ebay would be my advice. You may even be able to check out the Dremel Drill as well. You also could look for a cross slide vice to position your PCB.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 10:54:53 pm
content: HSS= hardened steel, right? All of my current bits I am pretty sure are hardened steel.It might be worth getting a small drill press used just so I can use a very small Jacobs chuck and precise drilling ring.. which I got at an estate sale for almost nothing. Its a bearing mounted ring with spring arrangement - that fits on a very small keyed chuck- its made for very precise work with your fingers guiding the travel if the drill.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 11:04:21 pm
content: Yes, Ive "almost" bought that (Harbor Freight) drill a number of times .. Its a little bigger than ideal for me though.. I dont really have the space for it. What I want is something I can put away easily when I'm not using it. The Proxxon or that green Ebay drill I see all the time would be much better in that respect.Quote from: elecman14 onTodayat 17:52:32

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 11:05:37 pm
content: "HSS" means "high-speed steel", and is the usual alloy to drill metals.Since glass-epoxy is abrasive, HSS will wear out relatively quickly.Carbide is better, but may be brittle and must be used more carefully.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 11:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 28, 2016, 10:45:55 pmYou obviously never used Tungsten drills for FR4! Once you have used those for drilling PCBs you'll never look back at HSS drills. Plain and simple: HSS drills are completely unsuitable for drilling FR4. There is just no argueing around that.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 11:45:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2016, 11:20:21 pmI beg to differ.Rather than follow others advice like sheep there are other ways to do stuff.Where's a source of cheap Tungsten PCB drills, these ?http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-pcs-0-6-mm-Tungsten-Carbide-Drill-Bits-1-8-Shank-For-PCB-Jewelry-CNC-/291177639252Want them to be flexible to self center in a pad hole ?......good luck.I'll stick with these and if there's a PCB that makes drilling it uneconomical I'll send to a PCB house.http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10PCS-0-6-3mm-HSS-Straight-Shank-Twist-Drill-Bits-Set-for-Electrical-Drill-Tools-/151739283333?var=&hash=item23545db785:m:mro28Xyup1-uvtTXgVeIuKw

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 12:00:21 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 28, 2016, 11:45:57 pmI never had any problems with that using Tungsten drills (even the 0.6mm ones). But then again I just spend the cash for good ones. At some point good tools make life easier. I think I needed two 0.8mm Tungsten drills in the past 20 years. The first one finally got dull and I think it will be another couple of decades before the second one wears out (but then again I'm not drilling so many PCBs as I used to). Tungsten drills are expensive but they last very long so in the long run they are way cheaper than HSS anyway.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 10:00:00 pm
content: Quote+1 Proxxon. This is probably one of the most cost effective tools out there, in the long run. One just died on me. Wore out the motor after 3 years of pretty heavy use/milling. Bought two more to replace it. My FIRST proxxon has been used less stressfully. PCB drilling, among other things. Still running smoother/quieter than any new Dremel, nearing 7 years.The stand is about 60. The cheapest tool (plus or minus power supply) will come it at around 75. That's 35 over your budget. If you were to cheap out, you could buy the 45.00 12V tool and wire it your own power supply. This will top out at under $110.00. It runs on 12-18VAC. The stubby middle prong on the plug is a ground. It will run without it. It will also run on 6-18VDC, but the speed control won't work.I wish the sizes were SAE. But the steel collar on the tools is 20mm, as is the steel rod on the drill press. Buy a 20mm forstner bit, and you might find the drill press stand handy for all sorts of uses.Concentricity/smoothness, aside, the proxxon will run whisper quiet, and that is enough reason to pay the $$, IMO. The stand is rigid and repeatable, once you tighten down all the right screws. And the adjustable fence comes in handy for drilling holes for SIL/DIL parts.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 12:34:50 am
content: The problem with tungsten drills is not the stand, but the chuck. If properly centered in the chuck, you can drill several thousand 0.6mm holes with one drill bit in FR-4. Basically a traditional chuck is useless. Use collets with the correct dimension instead. Proxxon's triple slit collets are superior to Dremel's four slit. If you etch your own PCB's it makes sense to print a tiny hole in the pad to ease centering the drill bit.Proxxon collets.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:16:05 am
content: I use carbide drill bits in my proxxon with a chuck. No problem. I use carbide end mill, too. I have complete collets set for Proxxon, and I only used the collet on the one in my router table... Since ever it died and I replaced it, I just now noticed I am using even that one with the adjustable chuck, and didn't consciously realize I made a change until just this second, lol. (Mostly routing plastic, wood, and FR4 with carbide end mill and almost never change the bit). I've owned/used all 3 variants of Proxxon rotary tools and never had problem with runout or bits slipping with the chuck.My high speed Dremel, OTOH, gets to use 1/8" collet, only, and no carbide bits other than roughing burrs. There's more wrong with average Dremel tool than just the collet.The Proxxon collets are probably better, yeah. They are machined from steel. I think the Dremel collet is aluminum?My mains Dremel is a hand-number. But it's a workhorse. It has lasted almost ten years, now. My li ion Dremel is a super handy package. I luv it. But it has bad runout, too.A wobbly hand or stand can certainly put a small carbide drill bit in mortal danger, IMO. Well, I see your point, though. If you go slow, press wobble isn't a huge concern. But if you speed things up to do scores of holes, quickly, more rigidity in the stand is better.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:20:11 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 28, 2016, 07:57:12 pmI read lots of poor reports of the Dremel, so I bought one of these:https://www.riogrande.com/Product/variable-speed-mini-drill-press/330012Under $100, has very little torque, but the mechanism stays nice and straight and doesn't break drill bits. order a couple of spare belts if you do get one.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 08:35:03 pm
content: I have the Proxxon TBM115. It's a very nice little machine. Very precise and smooth as a sewing machine. Easily recommended.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 11:43:28 pm
content: I was impressed by the guy who made an "under-slung" drill press for drilling PC boards. The bit came up from under the table. I can't remember whether he used a TV camera and screen (with cross-hair marked on the screen) or maybe just a laser LED to indicate on the top surface where the hole would be made. Anybody remember where the video is?

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 12:24:48 pm
content: I bought my Proxxon TBM230 for PCB drilling and whilst I haven't done any PCBs recently it seems a nice tool. Even managed 5mm holes in steel angle iron at the upper end.I was thinking about a 45 degree mirror underneath and one of those tiny cheap endoscope webcams so I could accurately position PCBs when drilling. Something sacrificial and transparent under the PCB (or an on screen crosshair) and you'd easily be able to align it.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 07:45:48 pm
content: Could you guys give me your opinion on whether this chuck is damaged or not? This was bought third hand, it appears. There are these score lines on the area where the teeth mesh with the key. They are not deep at all but permanently scored in. the three forward moving (the business end) of the chuck look okay and they all meet together without any visible damage in there, but one of the three gaps is just very very slightly bigger than the others when its opened a bit.I got this at a neighbors estate sale. (and the initials are not his)It feels okay. When I got it it was seized up because it had not been used in probably decades. But I cleaned it out. I have no way of testing it without a drill press to put it on. This is one of two chucks I got there. This is the smaller of the two, its for precision work. The collar is basically free rotating with very little resistance on ball bearing and it extends the chuck's length by an amount of up to an inch or so with a spring containing sleeve that lets you perform the last inch or so of travel of the drill with your fingertips by pushing lightly down, without danger. When you release the pressure the drill chuck head goes back up. Instead of using the big lever.This is a Jacobs No 0 keyed chuck. Its smaller than most chucks.I think I am going to get the cheap conventional drill press, so I can use this chuck, for now, until I can afford to build a automated X-Y table for home routing PCBs. Thats out of my range now, but this bottom of their line 8 inch drill press is basically only around $50 plus shipping right now. From what I am reading, its adequate for many people's use if you set it up and use it properly. All the expensive gear in the world isn't going to help me if I don't know how to use it. perhaps its like cameras and lenses, better to have a cheap drill press and a decent chuck, than the other way around.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 07:58:28 pm
content: The abrasion marks are from it being used unlubricated and in a dirty state and shouldn't affect future operation.IMHO you're making small quantity PCB drilling much more complex than it need be, I grab my Dremel press, a magnifying headset (eye protection and the need to see) and a few minutes later a 100 holes.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 08:25:08 pm
content: How do they look? In some applications it doesn't matter how they look. They work fine for me. I am just ashamed to show them off because the holes aren't always exactly where I want them to be. Basically, its the difference between them looking nice and looking "okay".BTW, you should also use a good quality - better than N95 I would use HEPA (p100 which are the magenta cartridges) particulate mask when drilling fiberglass. I use a HEPA vacuum cleaner too to clean up. It also doesn't hurt to do it near a window with a fan blowing out if possible.What matters is the aspect ratio of the particles. Fiber particles under 1 micron in width can potentially be very very bad for your lungs and your entire body. (if they are both very narrow and several times longer than they are wide).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 09:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 01, 2017, 08:25:08 pmMine look good, with a very high % perfectly centered and I've been thinking about reducing the pad hole size further to say 15 mill to improve centering further.QuoteYep, noted and one of the reasons why for the small #'s of PCB's I do I prefer Paxolin boards to FR4.Now, since you started this thread and I made those early posts about using HSS bits I've had a chance to have a chat with my old EE mate that lectured electronics for ~30 years.He told mein no uncertain termsthat with the students and for the PCB drilling stations theyditched Tungsten bits decades ago in favour of HSS for 3 reasons: breakages, safety and cost.And yes they were working with FR4.They used small Asian PCB drill presses that he said were perfect for the job, reasonably cheap and variable speed, despite this their long term expenditure reflected HSS was the right choice.Students were supplied with acrylic face shields and it was all used in a ventilated environment like a fume cupboard.Again we've have had a good # of contributors that have expressed what works well forthemand withuse with careTungsten could be satisfactory for your unit, me, well I'm many $ saved and in my pocket to spend on other goodies.Previously another home made PCB drill press was made from a old cordless drill motor direct driving a tiny chuck (pressed on) mounted in a truly gawd awful plastic press all fixed atop of a ATX PSU and using the inbuilt PSU power button. That was hard to drill real accurate with.Anyway it's gone as a freebee to a mate when I got the Dremel stand and it serves my needs well.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 09:46:47 pm
content: If you can manage to keep the run-out under control, you save big with tungsten carbide. If possible, start the drill motor at low RPM and observe. If visible run-out, just loosen the chuck and re-tighten it. Sometimes you must try several tmes, but you will get it right in the end. The fact that a school using cheap equipment fail with tungsten carbide is not a proof of much. Almost everyrthing can be damaged in that environment. Be patient, and you will be rewarded big. No very expensive equipment is needed, but a good chuck or collets are where you should put your money. I use a rather cheap 30 year old 12VDC Dermel-like drill that happens to fit the Proxxon collets. They made a huge difference from the original, but I used them for more than 20 years, so no need to complain. I struggled with run-out, but with patience I had no problem doing more that 1000 holes with them either.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 10:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: tronde on January 01, 2017, 09:46:47 pmThere was no mention of cheap.What size is the boss on a Tungsten bit, 1/8" ? My Dremel came with a 1/8" collet and holder and no doubt they're available as an accessory.Yes, as as has already been mentioned the Dremel press has some small slop.......sideways and this can be used to advantage in aligning to the pad centers......small movement of the lever will move the bit laterally.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 01:03:28 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 01, 2017, 10:09:41 pmNo big deal, but "...perfect for the job, reasonably cheap and ...". Yes, it can be understood in different ways.Most likely 1/8", yes. I have tried several drills with 4-slit collets (as Dremel's), but none have been close to the 3-slit from Proxxon. My experience is that it's the run-out that really matters. The forces needed for drilling tiny holes in FR-4 does not put much stress on anything.I know both Dremel and Proxxon collets are sold as spares. As you can expect, they are not interchangeable. At least not between my Dremel and Proxxon. Dermel has been using at least two different thread sizes on the spindle, so maybe others will fit. Maybe the Proxxon collets will fit some of the Chinese Dremel clones. I know some of them don't accept original Dremel chucks. I think my old 12V is a Minicraft, and that Proxxon acquired them some time ago. Maybe that's why I can use Proxxon collets.Today we can buy cheap linear bearings and rods from China. It's easy to make a rather good stand using them and something from the junk box. 3 - 4 inches vertical movement is more than enough so you can use almost anything with the right price. I made my own stand long time ago using small axles and bronze bearings for the vertical movement. The rest was aluminium profiles, but something in wood should do the trick as well. A spring to pull the drill up, and your finger to press it down. Not anything advanced needed for basic operation if you don't want to, or have access to tools to make something more complicated.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 01:30:26 am
content: It was really hard to justify building something from scratch, or even buying the press for my existing dremel, when for $70 you can buy that little drill press from RioGrande (who BTW were awesome to deal with).From the picture, the drill press looks bigger, but the whole thing is only about 30cm high (12" for those 3 non-metric countries), and is a perfect addition to my garage. I tend to use 0.8, 0.9, 1.0 & 1.2mm drills the most, and got some cheap from China, so far I've only broken one bit in a couple of years. The big thing with a drill press is keeping it perfectly straight, and while the motor on this isn't the strongest, the mount drills perfect right-angle holes, and hence doesn't endanger drill bits.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 01:47:05 am
content: It looks squat and very solidly constructed, like the Proxxon.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 03:44:53 am
content: QuoteSo.. What makes you think the collet is the difference? IMO, it's the tool that makes the difference. Proxxon have balanced motors. Dremel will make your hand fall asleep from the vibrations. Doesn't matter if the collet is on there or not. Even if the Dremel collet were perfectly concentric, harmonic vibrations would occur from the tool moving around like an angry bee, which is enough to give a small gauge drill bit whiplash (or a big cutter to have chatter).Carbide vs HSS:I use carbide for larger holes and for a large number of smaller gauge holes. For just a few tiny gauge holes, I'm better off just using the (dull) HSS bits and taking more time waiting for the bit to break thru the other side gently, so as not to lift the copper. The carbide stays sharper (much, much) longer, and a sharp bit punches holes faster with less dust. A new carbide bit will cut strings of FR-4 that fly off the bit, so the next hole is not obscured.The smaller drill bits take the worst beating. My 70+ gauge HSS drill bits are effectively dull after one or two holes. But a dull HSS bit works a lot better than a broken carbide bit. My "normal" size hole is about 64 gauge or so, which I will primarily do with carbide.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 05:27:18 am
content: +1 on Proxxon. Especially if you spend a smidge more and get the IBS/E, which has massively less slop/run-out than the Dremel. And then Proxxon's stands are far better than Dremel's. (If you do have a Dremel tool, you can get a third-party stand that's superior.)

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 05:34:25 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on January 02, 2017, 03:44:53 amIt's very easy to say it's the collet and not the motor because it's very difficult to tighten a 4-slit collet without visible run-out. I have tried a lot of different motors (including Dremel), but it's the run-out that is the real problem causing a tungsten drill do break. The motor I use in my own drill press is OK, but far away from fantastic. With the original 4-slit collet I must be very careful to avoid run-out, but with the Proxxon 3-slit collet it's no problem at all. As long as it's no serious sideways movement in the spindle I have not had trouble with broken drills with any motor as long as I managed to avoid run-out. That's why I consider the collet the most important thing. I drill most of my holes with 0.65mm but have had no problems when I paid attention to the run-out.I agree that vibrations add to the trouble, and that I proably would get more holes from one drill without, so no disagreement there.If my current motor dies, I would probably replace it with something from Proxxon, but you can get good results with somethinge else too.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 07:37:54 pm
content: QuoteInteresting observation. I would not have thought the collet made a difference, at least with the 1/8" bits. The surface area of contact seems like it would be large enough to be repeatable despite the slits being opposite from each other. Anyhows, even the adjustable chuck on the Proxxon is high enough tolerance to work fine for me.QuoteDoh. I guess there are four different models. This is the only one I haven't tried, yet. The 115/E is the mains version I had (which is the one I wore out, using as a table router!). The motor speed and power rating is identical to the IBS/E, so I would think it uses the same motor. Anyhow, I have experienced essentially no vibration/noise or collet/chuck runout on any of the other three cheaper models.Taking apart the dead 115/E, I am quite impressed with the plastic used in these tools. The molding is perfect. Not a burr in sight. The plastic is very hard but tough. Everything fits together, perfectly. There's no sign of wear or slop, anywhere. In particular, the plastic bit that connects the steel spindle to the motor mates like it's one single piece. It's a shame to junk the tool... I am keeping the parts in case I can find a replacement motor. But I did happen to notice one part that was also dead... The ball bearing was dead in this tool, as well as the motor. It's a very tiny ball bearing, probably not that great for the side loads I was putting on the tool. I found the exact bearing on McMaster Carr (there's only one with same dimensions!) and bought a few for routine maintenance on its replacement. I am not sure how much the bearing might have contributed to the motor dying... but I'll have a better guess within 4 years, I suppose.The IBS/E looks like it has a more rigid housing, particularly around the neck. Perfect for my router table. I think I'll give that one a go, next time.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 07:51:20 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 28, 2016, 08:27:51 pmDremel stands are completely not rigid enough. mainly because they are made of plastics.you will break every small drills <1mm very fast with these kind of stands.better look at the proxxon family, they are made of steel or at least aluminum.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 07:56:01 pm
content: The proxxon is press is made of diecast alum/zinc alloy, other than the 20mm chrome plated steel rod. But it is perfectly adequate for this kind of thing. Just tighten all the screws, and the lateral slop is very small. I fancy the small Proxxon machine vice, because it is flat on all sides, for use free-standing or for clamping the whole thing into a larger vice. And it is also die cast zinc alloy. It's quite good enough structural material to last, when used properly.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 07:58:34 pm
content: i can just recommend proxon - i have a nice combo for drilling PCBs - MB 140/S (stand) + FBS240/E (the drill) + KT70 (cross table) and it's perfect for drilling downto 0,5mm holes. for more delicate work i also have a MF70 micro milling machine and i was successfully drilling 0.15mm holes (6 mils in imperial) with it.regarding lateral movement of the dremel drill press mentioned earlier in the thread - that's not good, it will break the finest bits in no time. HSS bits can survive a bit of flexing but those are not great for PCBs... lateral movement should be fixed. each machine can be fixed/adjusted it's just a matter of patience and adjusting/replacing components

author: orin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 08:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on January 02, 2017, 07:58:34 pmYes, the Dremel drill press is sloppy, but I have no problem drilling small holes in PCBs with it.Hardware store drill presses aren't much better - next time you look at one, grab the chuck and see how much sideways slop there is. The micro mills are better in this respect, but are much more expensive. In addition, it's unlikely that a drill press will run fast enough for tiny drills, though I always seemed to get away with it when I used one.

author: Nerd
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 10:29:09 am
content: I've been using a Dremel Workstation Press mentioned for a few years now without any issues and find the Dremel to be a versatile tool that is well suited for small labs on a budget.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:15:15 pm
content: Quote from: Nerd on January 03, 2017, 10:29:09 amno-one says dremel is bad... i'm just saying if the lateral movement is there , then it should be fixed, otherwise you'll be breaking small drill bits while drilling small diameter holes into tougher materials (like FR4 is). .. so investing a little time into finding the source of the issue and fixing it is a good idea.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:57:28 pm
content: US designed high R.P.M. mini drill or dremel tool , that now has many clones, IMO is not for drill press jobs. its R.P.M. is too high.I use my dremel clone or mini drill for cutting & grinding. but for a cheap drill press this it .cheap corded AC drill, from supercheap auto - has a good precision chuck that can hold 1mm dill bits.and a stand from jaycar with added table clamp. from bunnings hardware.all up $90AUD

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 05:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on January 03, 2017, 02:57:28 pmfor drilling PCBs there not such thing as too high rpm, the machines they use in pcb fabs run several 100krpmI guess you can be lucky but all the cheap drill stands like the one the pic I've seen are next to useless, there is so much slopthat the drill moves several mm sideways when you move the drill up and down

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 06:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on January 02, 2017, 01:30:26 amDid you mean this one:https://www.riogrande.com/Product/Variable-Speed-Mini-Drill-Press/330012Highest speed is 8500

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 09:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on January 03, 2017, 05:50:33 pmWhen I worked in a PCBFab (many moons ago) our (Wessel) CNC Drills ran at 80krpm for 12thou drill bits. That's the smallest we used back then.I use that little Rio Grande press and run it at the highest speed for 0.8mm -> 1.2mm which is what I use the most (32-48 thou). Haven't broken a bit (of that size) yetWessel were a cool company. Every new drill came with a keg of beer !

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 10:09:49 pm
content: I know PCB manufacturers use high RPM, but they're CNC drilling 100's of holes per minute. I don't know that it matters that much when doing one board at a time by hand.I know with carbide drill bit I just "punch" the holes very fast using Proxxon at 15K RPM. But with HSS, I bet lower speed is just as good. Maybe better to reduce dulling from friction/heat, even?Quote

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 10:48:33 pm
content: thought- i would show my drill press setup.as a electronics/ RC/ gamer/hobbyst I do a lot of aluminum & plastics handcrafting. so drilling pcb's is a one off if ever.if I was drilling large quantities of pcb's then I would spent a lot more on adedicated precisionmini drill press.im Not in the hobby to make money. only to have fun & mod/fix the odd kids toy.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 08:47:23 pm
content: A picture showing the difference between a 1/8" collet for Dremel 395 and one from the Proxxon Micromot 28940 collet set. Both bought in a shop in Norway. The Dremel is never used, but not new. Looks the same as what they sell now.The Dremel collet seems too be aluminium. Not magetic. Seems to be moulded. The inside surfaces of the outer part (that grips the drill bit) is obviously machined and has a smooth finish. Doesn't help much when they cheaped on de-burring the slitsSince made of a soft metal, the Dremel is worn by tightening the collet. Both the outer tip as well as the part mating into the spindle becomes worn after a while. Makes it difficult to avoid run-out.The Proxxon collet is magnetic and machined on all surfaces. It is also larger. Seems to be made with much better precision.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 11:30:44 am
content: Quote from: tronde on January 04, 2017, 08:47:23 pmThis reminds me: the Proxxon collet set comes in a little plastic holder. Unlike the collets themselves, the holder is not precision made and doesn't grip all the collets firmls, so the collets often fall out (annoying inside a carry case). I solved this by glueing 3mm diameter magnets inside the holder, so that the collets are held in magnetically. Works perfectly!

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 06:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: tronde on January 04, 2017, 08:47:23 pmWho sells Proxxon in Norway?

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 11:11:13 pm
content: Foredom also makes a drill press attachment if you happen to have one of those.LINKThey have been the industry standard for jewelry makers and other small rotary tool tasks long before Dremel's got popular.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 12:44:02 am
content: Quote from: neslekkim on January 05, 2017, 06:38:46 pmI bought at Bauhaus in Lier, but Norwegian modellers sell on the net.www.modellers.com

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 11:24:55 pm
content: You will not regret if you bought the Proxxon and drill stand for PCB holes. I use the Dremel for anything other than precision work.I have been using this setup since 2011, works very well with carbide bits. The Proxxon neck has minimal flex this is important if you are want your carbide bits to last. You will also need a rigid platform to mount the PCB.