UPS for home use, which one? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2020, 10:15:43 am
content: Hi everybody,I want to buy myself a UPS to deal with the power surges here. It needs to be an active one that protects also against very short voltage fluctuations (brownouts).A backup time of 5 minutes will be enough. Linux support is a pre. Any recommendations?I'm thinking about something like this:https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/pfc-sinewave/cp1350pfclcd/Thanks,Karel

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2020, 11:39:13 am
content: Quote from: Karel on May 06, 2020, 10:15:43 amHow bad is your power line? Because Line-Interactive may or may not be the right UPS.There are essentially three categories of battery-powered UPSes:- Standby: the simplest form. If the power drops below a certain level then they switch to battery mode.- Line-Interactive: like Standby, but also monitors input voltage variations and can compensate for certain under- and overvoltage conditions (i.e. brownouts) as well as power factor.- Active (usually called 'online'): uses a constant AC-DC-AC conversion where the batteries remain connected to the inverter, which means it doesn't have to switch between battery and mains supply. Unlike the other two types, the active UPS provides truly uninterrupted power, and can compensate for a wide range of line issues.The disadvantage of the online UPS is its power draw as the constant AC-DC-AC conversion causes some loss of power (and heat, which is normally removed by a fan, so there's usually also some noise).While I wouldn't recommend a Standby UPS for a computer, a Line-Interactive is usually fine if the power grid is generally reliable (and computer PSUs can easily deal with the short switchover event). If your local power line is poor however I'd recommend to get an online UPS.As to brands, I'd normally look at Tripp-Lite, Eaton Powerware, Liebert/Emerson, Xtreme. Wouldn't recommend APC as we had lots of problems with them over the years. But that is mostly for professional use.If it's for home use then there might well be other brands which would do fine, and the one in the link appears decent.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2020, 01:11:36 pm
content: Thanks Wuerstchenhund.It's for home use and compared with the country I origin from, the powergrid here is pretty bad.Sometimes it's ok for more than a month. Sometimes we have a surge once a week.The surge can be relatively long, up to a minute or very short, less than half a second.And you are right, the continuous conversion wastes energy but makes it easier to provide a stable voltage and waveform.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2020, 01:21:37 pm
content: I have an Eaton 9PX 1500i. It's an online UPS, although I run it in energy-saving mode most of the time (the network grid is fairly stable here).Stock fans are rather loud for a quiet home office environment, but I replaced them with Noctua fans. Personally, I'd go for the quietest, lowest RPM fan you can find. The heat load isn't particularly big.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2020, 01:38:54 pm
content: you can buy any UPS that you think the brand is legit and the price is within reasonable figure etc but dont make mistake like i did, i have 3x ~500VA UPS in the store waiting to serve the right device for them after i pulled them out from my PCs. i thought 500VA can deal with my 450W PCs, wrong. i thought the first one is bad brand or bad design, then i bought the second different (better) brand, behaved the same, during power blackout, they are not 100% protecting my work. then i bought the 4th unit, now i beefed up to 1000VA, works charming until now, its just a matter of replacing expired batteries, this is unavoidable maintainance that we have to take care, SLA battery can die in just a matter of 2-3 years. as for how long it can protect your work in blackout it depends on how big the SLA battery is. i modded the earlier unit to take car's battery, but since the bottleneck is in the 500VA circuitry, then it didnt make any different at protecting from surges, but car battery could last maybe 15-30 minutes. i never have a need to mod my 1000VA since it has 2 batteries inside so i have plenty of time to do last minute editing and save my work before getting along with the blackout. ymmv.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 12:47:53 pm
content: Honestly, just pick up a second-hand line interactive APC, Eaton/Powerware etc... (sometimes rebadged as Dell, IBM and so on). Throw some new batteries in and you'll be on your way.Even the APC Back-UPS series are perfectly fine for most residential use cases and are inexpensive.Sensitivity and min/max voltages can be adjusted through software on most models to suit your requirements. If you have sensitive equipment, go for a line interactive APC Smart-UPS or similar model.If you find your power to be particularly bad, maybe go for a larger unit that can support longer run-times in between battery charges.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 01:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on May 07, 2020, 12:47:53 pmGood suggestion, however I would recommend to avoid APC. We had lots of issues with them over the years, a lot more than with our Powerwares (which are a lot more reliable) and Sola/Hevi Duty units (which are built like tanks, not a single defect even on very old units).For a 2nd hand unit, I'd rather look for that Eaton/Powerware or Best Power (which later became part of Powerware).Some of these units have also been sold under the HP brand.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 02:09:50 pm
content: Yeah, I would avoid APC. I've had some units fail silently (self-test passes, battery is ok, doesn't provide emergency power).

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 03:55:20 pm
content: right, my 3rd 500VA unit is APCthe 1st and 2nd is Contronetix, and now in use is KOSS, i believe local brand.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 03:21:49 am
content: I strictly use APC's commerical models. I have a few from 1KVA to 3KVA rack mount models. While they are quite costly new, used ones are very cheap on eBay and all I had to do was to replace batteries. I had only one that had relay problems, but I was able to repair it quite easily. Fault was obvious in visual inspection. Oh, yeah, I had one that was DOA. Seller game me my money back and said not to bother returning it.I do not like consumer version of APC. Their specs are often over-rated. As a result, after a while and few up and down cycles, batteries swell up and get stuck in the chamber.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 05:08:21 am
content: Another nice feature that you'll often find in a higher-end UPS is some form of 'battery care' option. Each brand is different, but typically they might reduce the battery charge voltage or even disconnect the charger when the batteries are fully charged. This can significantly extend the life of the batteries.So, a used, online (also called dual-conversion) UPS with 'battery care' would be a really nice score. A network management card would be icing on the cake!

author: chriva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 05:30:01 am
content: We don't really know how much your computer draws during full load nor what its nominal power draw is so it's hard to say what would be a good device for youHere's my setup:A APC 500VA unit that has been slightly modified to mitigate some of its known flaws (Way too low a resistance in one of the divider nets and some other stuff I didn't like. Went down from 28-30 to 6-8 Watts idle draw. Drawback is that it takes two days to fully charge the battery but I rarely have black/brownouts).Can't remember the exact model number right now since I'm not at home but it does have rudimentary line compensation (like -+20 VAC or something). configurable brownout trigger etc.Mine would probably only last two minutes on full blast so it's set to throttle back everything as soon as the "on battery" signal is received and then enter hibernation (store everything to disk).Last note:I can definitely vouch for a second hand one. You have to replace the batteries regularly anyhow so it's not worth the cost of a new one if you don't use it for your business.

author: fordem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 04:15:03 pm
content: What is critical is the type of load - since you list linux support as a prereq then I assume some sort of a computer load.Switch mode PC power supplies are tolerant of a wide range of voltage fluctuations and the more recent units will accommodate an input voltage from 100~240 without user intervention - I'm reading this off of the power supply for a six your old Lenovo/IBM. By design, switch mode power supplies do not draw power from the line continuously, the input is essentially a rectifier followed by a storage capacitor and current is drawn from the line only on the peak of the AC wave form and only when the rectified voltage is higher than that stored in the capacitor, making them quite tolerant to "millisecond" outages of the type seen when a line interactive UPS transfers from line to battery.Just about any line interactive unit with sufficient capacity to support the required load will do what you need - avoid the cheap battery backup units - so if, for example, you're looking at APC, you want to go for a SmartUPS and not a BackUPS. If you're looking at Eaton, you don't want anything where the model number starts with a 3, you want a 5 at the very least - 3XXX is basic battery backup, 5XXX is line interactive, 9XXX is reverse transfer or true online.Do you require true online - in my opinion it's a nice to have - for certain types of sensitive comms equipment it's a must - for general purpose computing, it's not required.I've used TrippLite, APC, Best Power (now owned by Eaton), Exide Electronics (now owned by Eaton) and Liebert Emerson - as long as we're discussing the smaller "desk side" units (up to say 3kVA) - they're pretty much all the same in terms of quality & functionality - so look at the features and pick one that you like and can afford. I've owned all of the above at some point, and currently have five APC units of different vintages - personally I prefer units with network management, so that means I need to look at the higher priced units.Do I have a preference for APC units - NO - I'm happy to use whatever I can get, and only one of the units I have was purchased new, the other four were all free and just needed batteries.Linux support - this is where I'm going to get rapped on the knuckles - make sure the unit you choose has a comms interface and then after that you're on your own - download nut (network ups tools), learn how it works and how to configure it. Open source has both advantages & disadvantages and it's "open-ness" is what leads to the challenges in finding support and finding devices that work well with whatever flavor of the month you're running. Have I used it - yes - amongst other things I have a raspberry pi, running nut, powered via PoE, that shuts itself down when the APC tells it there's an outage via the ethernet interface - the pi is about 150' or so from the UPS that powers it. I've also used Eaton's LANSafe with SCO Unix (now that was a PITA to setup). If you're looking for plug'n'play functionality, then you're using the wrong OS.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 12:27:12 am
content: Oh, you bring up a good point. Capacity.Most UPS are rated by VA. We typically think of WATTS. They are not the same thing. I really don't want to go into details but I usually try to keep load 1/3 of ratings. At most 1/2. In my modest lab, I have total of 10KVA worth of UPS all loafing around. It does wonders on reliability.Please - avoid the temptation of buying small under-the-desk type UPS and hook up a large battery. DC/AC inverters inside these small UPS are not meant to be operated beyond 10 minutes or so. Most rack units are made robust and many of them have fan with temperature control. How-to do this type of conversions are numerous on YouTube and Blogs. They are fire hazard.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 07:22:26 am
content: Thanks for all the replies.I should have mentioned in my first post, that I need it for home use, not in a lab.I have no other choice than to put it under my desk.At work we do have a dieselgenerator backup but that one takes approx. 30 seconds to startup.To deal with that I'll need something more "professional" but for now I'm looking for somethingfor home use.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 05:33:06 pm
content: APC's 1500VA version works well in home/office environment.Back-UPS Pro1500 is what I have. One lasted 8 years with few battery changes. I still have 2 of them here, not in lab but in office.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 05:56:37 pm
content: If you buy an APC make sure it has a SmartSlot and get also the AP9620 "Legacy Communications Card" (around 60 bucks) for the communication with NUT (Network UPS Tools). The newer Modbus based protocol is a trade secret, therefore not supported by NUT. I'd suggest to avoid APC for that reason.Edit: I mean the Microlink protocol.

author: fragile
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 02:42:00 pm
content: I just talked to my uncle Joe, just now, because he is a tech at Vertivco, which makes Liebert UPSs. Liebert is the industry standard. The make 750VA to 1000KVA units. He got me a 1500KVA for my bedroom. I think my Dad he got a 3000KVA.SO, I guess if you want protection from 'utility' power unevenness, line interactive are bad.. He said you want ''double inversion' UPS, because nothing can get through it! It changes the input power to DC, and then back to AC. He got mine on eBay, with a extra battery box, for 250$. Shipping was ok, bc it had no batteries in it.'So, I says, what should I tell this guy? He sent me a email, so I'm sort a readi g it right now. There's a lot of small libert systems on eBay.OK, I HOPEE you get one you like! His company uses yausa batteries, or exide, or enersys.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 03:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 27, 2020, 05:56:37 pmIt's perfectly supported by apcupsd. If the authors of NUT haven't read the very detailed and publicly available APC Modbus specification document, that really isn't APCs fault. The "APC Netlink" protocol is a trade secret, but there are very few units that support that and aren't upgradable to support Modbus also. All the new ones do it out of the box.Personally I'm an (early, SU to SUA) APC SmartUPS fan, but I also have MGE (pre APC merger) and Liebert dual-conversion units here.I prefer the early white APC SmartUPS (3G / SU) units because the schematics are "available" and they are all conventional through-hole and dead easy to work on. Whatever floats your boat.An dual conversion unit is going to be noisy, as will a lot of the later line-interactive units as they have one or more fans running continuously (even if at low speed). Most of the APC BackUPS are pretty quiet as are the early SmartUPS. I'm not a fan of the BackUPS, but I have a few in service.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:07:17 pm
content: Thanks for the hint! I messed up the protocols. What I actually meant is the Microlink protocol. Modbus is a later extension for some (many?) APC models.Someone has done some reverse engineering of the Microlink protocol end of last year:-https://sites.google.com/site/klaasdc/apc-smartups-decode-https://github.com/klaasdc/apcups-serial-test

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:58:35 pm
content: QuoteYou sure about that? I once installed a 500kva ups,the switch panel alone was 6ft x 8ft and the battery bank took up a fair bit of space.One thing i learned from the commissioning engineer was dont run up your load bank on the ups output before checking how much load is already on the incoming supply.

author: fordem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 08:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: fragile on May 28, 2020, 02:42:00 pmLiebert is just another one of the many brands out there - if you want to talk about industry standard - go look at market share. Vertiv actually ranks as #10 in the top 10, with Eaton being #1 and Schneider (APC) being #3.For the type of product being discussed here, which is single phase UPSs, APC is the market leader, however Eaton takes the lead for three phase.https://www.marketresearchreports.com/blog/2019/08/20/world%E2%80%99s-top-10-uninterrupted-power-supply-ups-manufacturers

author: Marck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 10:20:09 pm
content: We have probably 50 APC smart units of various capacities deployed. Over 7 years i think we have had maybe 5 failures not related to batteries. Some of these units are in fairly hostile environments with plenty of dust and heat and being supplied by generators that are shut down every 300 hrs for service.The biggest issue I have is the batteries expanding and having to dismantle the units to remove them.I have a 2000va unit at home that I am about to replace the internal batteries with a bank of 150AH SLA batteries. It will all be moved into the bottom of my rack for space and protection from any inadvertent interactions with the battery bank. I am not sure that this is a great idea but our power is fairly reliable most of the time. And I run at about 30 percent capacity of the unit most of the time so with any luck it will tolerate the new found run time ability if its ever called on.If anyone has any concerns about the upgrade I would be interested to hear your adviceThanksM

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 10:03:47 am
content: Quote from: Marck on May 28, 2020, 10:20:09 pmI've seen that also many times. AFAIK, APC runs the float voltage fairly high. The pre-2009 models have a hidden service menu which supports changing the that voltage. On my personal APCs I've set the float voltage a little bit lower than what the SLA's datasheet state. What annoys me the most are overpriced battery packs.

author: fordem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 03:42:20 pm
content: Whilst overcharging can cause the gelled electrolyte lead acid batteries to swell, in my experience it will require significant overcharging - I believe the problem relates to failed batteries being left in the unit, on charge, long after they have failed.UPS batteries have, realistically speaking, a 3~5 year expected life span, and if the units are being properly managed & maintained, you should have no issues with swollen batteries - unfortunately, especially with the smaller desk side units, no one pays them any attention until they drop dead.Regarding the extended run times - with proper cooling the challenge becomes the recharge times - does remember the APC XL series of SmartUPS - they had no internal batteries and could take anywhere from 1~10 external packs each with 4 x 18Ah gel cells? I still have one of those and will occasionally run it for multiple hours.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 02:01:34 pm
content: I've pretty much always used APC. Mostly toss out commercial units - tossed out often because the batteries need to be replaced and the company doesn't want to pay APC's price for SLA batteries. For home use, I have no qualms on just getting an equivalent battery from any number of suppliers at a fraction of APC's price. In the past, they never did anything that would tag the battery as a genuine one so the electronics never knew the difference.Though I did get one once from a customer - one of their remote offices returned it as non-working. They were just going to toss the whole thing, not even take the time to look at it (just a small model). I pulled around behind the building and when they 'tossed' it, it missed the dumpster and accidentally landed in my trunk. When I got home, I opened the front cover - and clearly the people at the remote office failed to read what was on the BRIGHT YELLOW card stuck to the front "Unit is shipped with battery disconnected". Yup, just plugged the battery cable in, put the cover back on, and it was a brand new unit, used it right up until the battery no longer held a charge, a few years later.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 02:13:21 pm
content: APC is a shittiest shit IMHO. Yesterday replaced battery in Back UPS 950. What a joke, 950VA rated UPS has a single 12V 7.2Ah battery. Battery compartment had space for 2, but second battery cannot be fit without snapping a piece of plastic used to hold single battery in place. And to replace it, you need to completely take it apart, including opening several plastic hooks which simply refuse to open. Is it UPS or smartphone? Even more expensive Smart UPS often overcharge batteries so they swell. Not to say they use very cheap components even in UPS worth several k$.Back UPS 950 Spec:Run time for load480W 1myay

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 02:56:07 pm
content: I agree, APC is crap. No other big name vendor with so many problems and issues as APC does. But vendors like to sell them because everyone knows the brand and when things go pear shaped then that's not their problem (and businesses just replace the UPS with a new one).I wouldn't touch APC with a barge pole. Especially not when there are so many better options out there.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 03:05:42 pm
content: I have an Eaton UPS. (Ellipse Eco 1200)Works well overall, pretty decent run time on battery for my workstation.The battery failed after a few years, which was OK. It was easy to replace.This UPS is definitely NOT flawless though. When the battery is fine, all works great. But when the battery started to fail, the UPS absolutely NEVER gave me any indication of that in any form - even the estimated run time was still practically the same as when new. I only figured the battery was failing because I got a couple power cuts and the UPS was apparently not doing its job anymore. There was absolutely no useful diagnostic.I don't know if it's common or if some UPSs have decent battery health monitoring...

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 03:13:40 pm
content: I also got tired of APC UPSes eating batteries. I had four of them at one point (sorry, I don't recall the model).I consolidated all my UPS loads into one place and wired up a good quality inverter/charger where I can control the charge voltage and current to match the battery specs. The battery temperature is also monitored for charging compensation, but it doesn't vary much in its present location.12V @ 35Ah electric wheelchair batteries are easy to get and have a good price per energy. I used four UPG UB12350 for 24V @ 70Ah into a Samlex EVO-2224 2kW inverter/charger.We have power failures often, at least once a month, and commonly in the range of a few minutes to several hours. The batteries are around 60-70% of capacity after 7 years of service. I'm still on my first set. I never expected them to last this long and I attribute it to good charging regimen.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 04:09:29 pm
content: Is there any reason to be wary of a UPS that keeps the SLA batteries on their side? Do gel type batteries not have a vent on the top?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:18:32 pm
content: Nothing bad about a gel cell on it's side, the gel does not move. however the battery will be cooked in short order, because it is siting in general right next to a really hot running transformer, leading to both the terminal voltage drooping as it heats up, and thus the battery suffers from the double whammy of being both overcharged and also being cooked nicely at around 60-70C.I solved that in my APC 750 XL UPS by removing the 2 extremely well cooked 18Ah SLA batteries inside it, and taking the connector off, replacing it with 2 soldered on terminals, with a used 18000uF 63V electrolytic acting as both local decoupling and something to hold the wires in place. Then used the rear connector to attach 2 65Ah deep cycle wet plate batteries to it. solves the problem of low capacity of the battery, and also keeps them at ambient room temperature, so they will last longer. Currently sitting at 27.7V on the battery, and as I check the water every few months, and do have an ion exchange column around to get pure water ( though the tap water here is soft enough to do straight out of the tap, but the ion exchange unit was free, plus I have a lot of spare media for it) to top up the cells when needed. UPS was free, scrapped because the batteries were stone dead, so it would not even power on.If needs be I will use one of the other UPS rack mount units I have, though there I will need to get together a 36V or 48V battery pack for them, the APC was used because the new batteries were the most expensive part, and this only needed 2 to operate. Run time is over 2 hours, so will do for the typical Eskom load shedding when it occurs, and apcaccess worked out of the box with it on connecting the USB cable to it.

author: Marck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 11:00:29 pm
content: This guy on youtube has a few videos where he tinkers with an APC smart ups 2200. Moving to external batteries and adding a couple of fans to get the unit to supply a continuous 1500w. His methods are a bit back yard dodgy but simple enough. I am not sure I would use his pool noodle fan mounts and airflow modification but it gets the job done.2 or 3 videos in total and just enough information to get someone like me to burn their house down😂https://youtu.be/YEcjvWFDaGk

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 06:56:36 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 03, 2020, 03:05:42 pmIt's difficult to monitor battery capacity in an UPS. It's not like with other devices with batteries where the charging controller can watch for changes in capacity during the regular charge cycles, as in an UPS the batteries are pretty much always fully charged up and discharge only when there's a power outage (which is usually very rare).This is why it's recommend to have regular maintenance periods (i.e. every 6 - 12 months) where a power outage is triggered and the UPS is allowed to run down (not completely, only to a certain extend) under load to check if the batteries are still at full capacity. If that UPS feeds a critical server then there should be another, fully charged UPS connected to the other power supply so that that a potential power outage shortly after the test (when the tested UPS is still charging up) doesn't catch you out.Some UPSes have functionality to perform these tests automatically.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 07:02:22 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 03, 2020, 05:18:32 pmAPC, right? Because every other brand name UPS I've seen has a physical barrier between batteries and the electronics/transformer sections, with separate air flow for both, to avoid exactly that.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 05:10:55 pm
content: Their big one do, the small ones, not so much. But I haven't used any of the mid-size non-rack ones recently - the older ones I had, all had a solid barrier between the battery compartment and the hot stuff in the upper half of the housing. And the batteries were always removable, snap off the plastic front, 2 screws in a metal plate to hinge it off, and slide out the batteries (sometimes they stick them to the base metal plate with double sided tape, or else they are taped to each other if there is more than one, to keep the stress off the jumper wire between the two.I wouldn't doubt they have since cheapened the design like most everyone. In the past I've had a 500, a 600, and a 1500, all of those had at least 2 batteries. Those were commercial grade units. I did get a couple of the oversize powerstrip type super cheap, and those were complete junk, one tiny battery could not supply enough power at the rated load to keep anything going even long enough to shut down cleanly.

author: fordem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 06:59:18 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 04, 2020, 06:56:36 amI endorse much of what is said here - I just want to point out that the "UPS bashing" going on appears to be based on experience with the "bottom rung" standby units (APC BackUPS, Eaton Eclipse Eco), the so called "battery in a box" units - these are built to a price and you do get what you pay for, or rather, you don't get what you didn't pay for, which is the feature set on the higher priced units.I've got three APCs here, an SU750 built in 2006, an RM1400 built in 2003, and a 900XL that is so old that PowerChute won't talk to it - all three have battery monitoring, will self test every 7 days, and will let you know if the batteries fail that test.None of my APCs have the batteries in the same "compartment" as the electronics, and for what it's worth - the internal temps are between 37 & 39 *C (yes I have SNMP cards installed) and that's in the Caribbean, with no air conditioning, and running 24/7.As with any other product, quality costs money, if you want to buy the "throw-away" units, it's your choice.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 07:19:12 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 03, 2020, 05:18:32 pmHot (60-70 oC) running tranformer while in battery charge/trickle mode? - BS. Unless you are talking about falty UPS

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 08:29:49 pm
content: iirc my cheap decommisioned Contronetix X800 has battery test function by briefly press the power (soft) button, to turn off is long press, that was the annoying thing. currently in service is the KOSS Centron 1200VA (both local brand (no or not recognized brand)), its hard button, so switching off is instant i like it but, no battery test button anymore, battery test is using software through LAN port + some other features like auto turning off PC etc, but i wont bother to setup the LAN and the SW i dont care and dont need those, i only need to save my work and then hibernate during power outage. i seldomly leave my PC unattended except if i want to torrent GBs of data, but that was when my ISP is slow, now it only took few minutes, otherwise torrent will auto resume anyway. running heavy simulation is like once in every 10 years so its moot, good simulator should auto resume as well, so does firefox, thumbs up. so battery test function not only for expensive brand model, its also available in cheap model you just have to look for it during window shopping. since i dont have proper test battery functionality, i do as Wuerstchenhund said, simulate power outage by pulling the UPS plug, if PC survive within 5 minutes, battery is good. ymmv.ps: and my previous UPSes are so compact that everything sit next to each other, so transformer heat will spread to anything inside including battery and pcb, but i havent experienced a single cooked battery. modding them to use external 40-60AH car battery is easy anyway. my current KOSS i have to put it on its side since that how the battery inside will sit up right, i experienced premature battery dead before this, but its probably due to me purchase the expired battery from a bad shop, good battery should be able to lay on its side, but this time i make sure they are up right, just in case. and if your UPS has 2 batteries, i think its advisable to make sure they are closely matched in new condition. that maybe one of the reason my premature dead battery experience, only 1 battery went bad, the other one still okaish, but i replaced both of them with fully charged new batteries, now its been a while everything looking good.

author: fordem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 02:47:18 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 04, 2020, 08:29:49 pmI'd say there's no maybe about it.If there was ever a golden rule about battery usage, any type of batteries, any type of usage, it is to never mix old & new, you'll even see this warning on children's toys.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 09:29:57 am
content: Quote from: fordem on June 04, 2020, 06:59:18 pmAt least in my case it's with Line-interactive and online variants in the 1KVa - >100kVA class (we don't buy anything under 1kVA or that is just a standby device).And as I said, I wouldn't touch APC with a barge pole.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 12:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 03, 2020, 02:56:07 pmThe biggest problem with APC is their charging circuitry. Fix that and it will be fine. From the APC UPSses I have taken apart I know the electronics are pretty simple & straightforward. A long time ago I had a Powerware UPS as well but that crapped out and because it used a custom IGBT module it was unrepairable.Still UPSses require maintenance and replacing batteries. I stopped using UPSses a long time ago because they caused more interruptions due to maintenance than actual grid outages.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 01:36:53 pm
content: To be fair we should differentiate between era and model family when talking about APC. There's pre-2007, i.e. before Schneider Electric took over. BackUPS was the inexpensive standard UPS with a short run time, and SmartUPS was the line-interactive variant which was (and still is) pretty reliable. besides the high float voltage (but you can adjust it). After 2007 things changed. The clear separation between BackUPS and SmartUPS started to vanish. Some BackUPSs became lower end SmartUPSs. Very annoying when you're used to "SmartUPS = line-intercative". In 2009 APC dropped the the old control protocol for their new proprietary Microlink but they still used the old one for the display unit. At some time they started to ship their UPSs with Kung Long batteries. Same for the replacement battery packs. IIRC, in 2013 APC added the MODBUS protocol to support 3rd vendor software after many customers complained about Microlink.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 02:01:48 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 04, 2020, 06:56:36 amYes, especially with lead-acid batteries. I know. And I've owned UPSs in the past (in the same price range) which had an auto-test feature. I was surprised this one didn't. It's definitely home gear, but it's not the cheapest crap you can buy either.Let's remind some people in this thread who recommend using a professional UPS instead that the OP's question was about HOME USE, so it was pretty natural that people would reply with their experience with entry-level UPSs.I also agree with you that if the UPS doesn't have an auto-test, you can actually do that manually. What we're discussing here though is report experience with UPSs targetted at home use, and from a commercial stand point, I'm surprised, and do NOT agree with manufacturers selling gear that doesn't help the user with the battery monitoring part, as a typical home user is a lot less likely to do regular maintenance on their own than a professional user. Anyway, just some experience report. Definitely one thing you have to be wary of.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2020, 08:51:43 pm
content: For my home UPS I use two APC 1500VA back-ups pro one with the second battery(BR24BPG) which gives a little over 3 hours runtime for my PC under normal load(gaming it's much lower). It's been running well for years now and they are line-interactive which can be annoying but considering the relaxed limits before turn on I'd say it's ok. The one without the additional battery has been going for much longer and batteries are still good but it's only used for lower power test equipment which is always on.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 02:00:13 am
content: I have a pair of SmartUPS.A 2006 vintage SUA3000 and a 2000 SU2200. Both have the standard 17Ah internal batteries and Anderson connectors fitted with 55Ah external batteries.The 2200 has been modified to run the fan at low speed continuously like the 3000 does out of the box. Both have been set up to charge the batteries to ~2.25v/cell as that seems to help battery life.The 2200 burned a sensing transformer last year (it's kept outdoors and I think moisture got to it), and when I replaced that I gave it a birthday (new electros, movs and fan).They are relatively lightly loaded, so I get ~450 minutes from the 3000 and between 500 & 900 minutes from the 2200 (depending if the screens are on my desktop or they are in dpms sleep).I had an SU1400 rack mount in my office but the (very quiet) buzz from the transformers drove me nuts, so I moved it outside and then replaced it with the SU2200. It's now the "spare".I also have a nice MGE (pre APC "merger") and some Liebert units, but I have circuit diagrams for the APCs and they are robust, quiet and easy to work on.I've seen a bit of concentrated hate for the APC here, but (at least prior to the Schneider buyout) they were designed as a robust and affordable UPS and they filled that role nicely. As a home UPS for anyone with an electronics bent, they are easy to work on, there is plenty of info available on the net and if you are lightly loading them can be made almost totally silent. Plus there is plenty of software support.I avoid the BackUPS although my first APC UPS was a BackUPS CS650. They are a bit agricultural for my taste, but you have to start somewhere.