Should ChatGPT bots be banned from the EEVblog Forum? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 11:45:56 am
content: As the poll says.Vote and discuss.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 11:48:21 am
content: I say yes - ban the BOTS. But do not ban responses generated by ChatGPT provided the member attributes them to ChatGPT.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:00:10 pm
content: But what if ChatGPT knows the meaning of life!!? How could we humans possibly ban such deep knowledge!?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 15, 2023, 11:48:21 amYes, that could become troublesome really quickly. If there was a rule that said no use of ChatGPT unless attributued then it's likely people will start reporting responses they think are ChatGPT.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 15, 2023, 11:48:21 amI agree with that.If someone wants to use ChatGPT to provide an answer that is fine, as long as they state the source and make it clear that it might be incorrect. Because these incorrect responses, like for instance thehighlightfunctionality in Kicad, throws people of.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:03:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 15, 2023, 12:00:49 pmYes I understand. It's a dilemma, it surely is. Let's see what the Greater Minds than mine say about it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: MT on March 15, 2023, 12:00:10 pmSince these machines feed on available information and don't really think for them selves it is not likely that this will happen

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:04:06 pm
content: How about dogs?"On the internet nobody knows you're a dog!"

author: GromBeestje
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:05:52 pm
content: I'd say ban them. They'll waste everyone's times.Let's put it this way, if I wanted a bot to answer, I would ask a bot. I come to a forum because I want a human answer.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: GromBeestje on March 15, 2023, 12:05:52 pmThat mirrors my feelings nicely, as well.Current ChatGPT results, can have serious flaws and inaccuracies in it. So, just posting unchecked / unmodified and unlabeled (as from ChatGPT) stuff, is very annoying and could waste peoples time, or even be dangerous.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:20:42 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 15, 2023, 12:03:59 pmHeeey! At your place humans about to ban farmers and farming, over at my place humans about to ban CO2 and go full bore CBDC's, who said humans really think! or think "better" then AI.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 15, 2023, 12:04:06 pmDid you hear about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac ?He would lay awake at night wondering "Is there a dog?"Edit: perhaps it's time he asked chatPTG

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:44:25 pm
content: Speculation, on my part.One worry, is that businesses, will use the ChatGPT / AI system (and similar, possibly via API's), to go round places, such as forums, and look for questions / threads / posts, related to their product range. They will then get the bot's script, to automatically generate, an apparently useful and helpful, friendly reply, which looks like a typical genuine human post.Except it will promote their product range.Hypothetical example:My hard disk has bad sector errors and seems to be faulty, help!=> Your hard disk, does indeed seem to be faulty. I'd suggest you get a new and much faster SSD. The best, cheapest, most reliable, fastest, longest lasting and one you should get is:Diskphoolery-SSD-infused-silver-mirror-flash-oxygen-free-delux SSD's (link provided ...).They are a bit pricey at $25,000 but worth every penny.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 15, 2023, 11:48:21 amAgreed. I don't like ChatGPT (because it irks me to no end whenanyonegives wrong advice), but I could definitely live with that.As I see it, it is no different than when e.g. I myself mention up front that I'm a hobbyist in electronics, not an EE, so that the reader knows to consider the reliability of the answer.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 12:56:41 pm
content: If a law cannot be policed and enforced, it holds little value. Can you identify the usage of ChatGPT? It might be straightforward to detect if ChatGPT is generating all of a user's output, but would you be able to distinguish that this paragraph was composed by ChatGPT?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 01:04:03 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 15, 2023, 12:56:41 pmI suspect, that if a user (for whatever reason). Made many (genuine), human posts, here. But sometimes (secretly) consulted with ChatGPT, and sometimes, either cut and pasted bits of its response(s) into their posts, or even rewrote them, to attempt to further hide, what is really going on. We wouldn't be able, to easily tell.So I agree, it would be difficult to reliably fully enforce, such rules.It is a bit like trying to prevent someone using a calculator, when they are given online tests and exams. It would be difficult to enforce in practice.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 01:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: MT on March 15, 2023, 12:20:42 pmYeah in my land of birth stupid things are happening.But in France, where I live, they do stupid things too.And definitely not my words that humans really think. Far from it, I feel proper thinking is far of for a large part of the human population.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 01:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 15, 2023, 12:56:41 pmI don't follow. The idea is to ban accounts that post identifiable ChatGPT-generated content. Users who post identifiable ChatGPT-generated content without mentioning will be told to stop, because it is annoying. If you use ChatGPT in ways that make it unidentifiable, then you obviously filter its output (or modify it enough), and as a member take the responsibility for its content, just like you do for the content you actually created yourself. No difference to e.g. copying the key points of your answer from somewhere else, is there? It iskinda fake, and not okay, but not something we can police.Whileusageof ChatGPT is not really identifiable,reliance on ChatGPT for contentis identifiable, just like those who spout most common rules of thumb as the full complete truth. Hopefully, other members will put such members to the task. It does not matter how the content is generated to me, bad advice should always be pointed out and corrected.As I see it, the ban on ChatGPT bots is a line set in the rules for interaction. We all agree that theft is wrong, yet not all thieves will ever be caught. Making theft illegal and punishable, we define the rules wetry tooperate by. Similarly, by banning ChatGPT bots we are stating that we are not interested in bot-generated posts. (Members such as myself will, however, ignore any member who starts relying too much on ChatGPT in their posts, even if they state clearly they do, simply because they contain little of interest to myself. I find the same content doing a few quick online searches.)So, while I do agree that selective application of a law is definitely unfair, I do not think it applies here, exactly; because all rules here are mediated by explicit human action by Dave or one of the moderators he trusts. It is a softer, "behavioural rule", subject to discussion.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 01:30:31 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 15, 2023, 01:04:03 pmIt will be not just this forum. If AI -human interactions on the internet won't be marked as created by an AI it will have such an effect on human communications as forged money to the financial system.A total chaos, and degradation of human human interactions, and besically the end of the internet as we know it. You will not be able to trust anyone who you don't know personally.Problem is, until this law will be created, a lot of valuable time will be lost. And that will be the case with every law which would try to regulate this whole issue.Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 15, 2023, 12:03:59 pmWell read this:https://www.valaszonline.hu/2023/03/10/szegedy-krisztian-matematikus-google-mesterseges-intelligencia-interju/Its in hungarian so please use some translator. It's an interview with one of the key AI developers at google, who is working on AI to understand complex mathematical problems and to solve them.For people who try to calm themself just because the current things have some flaws.Unfortunately he interviewer forgot to ask the main ethical philosophical questions, so we have to trust this guy and the likes that it will be everything OK because he thinks so...

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 01:35:00 pm
content: Check out this article on The Register -Quote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 01:43:07 pm
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 15, 2023, 01:30:31 pmI agree with you. But I think it will be just like a huge list of previous inventions, which caused dramatic changes in society and the way people live.E.g. Internet search engines, such as google. Previously, we had to seek out knowledgeable people, find a suitable book or magazine, or find out by trial and error etc.These days we can just google or similar, and rapidly find the answer to an amazing range of possible queries.You may be right, and it could mess up the existing quality of (usually) human written material, out there.But I think it is coming, and it would be very difficult to stop it, now.EDIT:Looking on the bright side, a similar / analogy, might be chess computers. So, although chess computers (software), can beat even the best human chess players. Many people, still enjoy playing chess. Either against other humans or while playing chess computers / software.The only real issue it has within chess, is that they have to be rather careful in chess competitions. To make sure that none of the players are (cheating) by using chess software, to win.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 01:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 15, 2023, 11:45:56 amI voted for a total ban. There are enough websites with answers that are clearly AI generated and useless.The only really usefull application of AI that I see would be to translate websites between any language while keeping the context. Like the auto-translator they have in Sci-fi series.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 02:00:02 pm
content: Has nobody noted that a forums get polluted by ChatGPT bots, the bots will ingest their own output as new training material. Does that remind anybody of positive feedback and echo chambers?The only escape from that is if a chatbot can detect and discount a post because it is bot-speak.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 02:06:30 pm
content: For now, there might still be ways to identify chat bots, for example by testing them for glitch tokens:Identifiable or not, a big no from my side for any bots on EEVblog. Bots must be banned from human networks. GPT is no better than any email spam bot, not to mention the destructive potential if ChatGPT is weaponized as a propaganda bot. Propaganda is no joke, can inflict more damage than a nuke.Because of this danger (propaganda bots), I bet it won't be long until we will see laws regarding total ban of chat bots from social networks, or at least some sort of human-user proof/signature/certificate.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 02:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 15, 2023, 01:43:07 pmI agree that it will be hard to stop it. Still we have to try if we think it is not good.The logic, that we had big changes in the past, and we were able to accomodate to them hence this time it will be all right as well, is kind of a same as if you would have a house in a flood area, and just because it was not reached by the flood in the last 200 years you would conclude that it can not be reached.This is not a logical argumentation as for how we could tacle the problem, this is just a vague hope.(Don't forget, the scale of the first world war was the consequence of the industrial revolution, and possibly the rise of the communism as well.)And I clearly do not even see the social-political-philosophical proposals to solve the issue now.In the last 6-8 years, since this issue came up seriously i could not see any meaningful proposals for the solutions.Key for the adaptation is whether we have time for it. Here I see that we don't. Could we adapt ourselfs in the last 20 years to mitigate climate change? I don't think so.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 02:25:58 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on March 15, 2023, 02:06:30 pmI agree with you from the other side of the border(Maybe this is the sign that the END is near)Unfortunately the human-user proof will be wery difficuly if not impossible to do in an anonimized way, so it will make it really difficult to preserve the possible anonimity of the internet to avoid a Big Brother society like in China.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 06:26:27 pm
content: Let's reframe it a little: would it be OK to have google search as an answer, providing the user posting identifies it as such. How about stackoverflow? Doesn't quite sound the same, but consider them as we see ChatGPT now: not just the rare instance now and then but multiple times in a thread and it many topics. So we are really asking: a stackoverflow answer unedited and posted, because.I think that would be banned pretty soon if someone took to doing that. But ChatGPT isn't already despite it doing a good impression of a virus infecting nearly every online interaction. Hell, even the newspapers are getting into the game now and using it as filler instead of twitter quotes.So I would vote to ban botsposting. I haven't actually voted because it wasn't clear if the vote also include bots scraping. I think scraping would be OK (Googles does it, so why not anyone else).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 06:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 15, 2023, 12:00:49 pmSeems like that could happen regardless of whether they're allowed if attributed.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 06:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 15, 2023, 06:26:27 pmThat is an interesting view on it. It would indeed be somewhat similar if a member joins here to just use stackoverflow answers as replies to questions asked here. What we need here is people who can answer the questions themselves, not copycats.So if a member does this constantly a ban might also be needed.Quote from: PlainName on March 15, 2023, 06:26:27 pmThis one is just for banning the bots. Scraping is inthisother thread

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 06:48:15 pm
content: I'm waiting for the day we'll find two ChatGPT instances arguing about a controversy topic over hundreds and hundreds of posts...

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 08:09:01 pm
content: I just a came across a youtube video with shitload of bots making comments. It felt very unpleasant. Like, it's a place for bots, not for humans.I don't see a point of reposting chatgpt answers. I have a chatgpt account and I talk to bot when I need to. Here I'd like to get access to expertise of experienced engineers (or just hangout). I still prefer talking with real people).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 08:12:12 pm
content: As I said in your other thread, yes to this one.It's the only way of dealing with it for now.And your forum is your place. You don't have to tolerate any of this if you don't want to.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 08:23:48 pm
content: Quote from: mfro on March 15, 2023, 06:48:15 pmThis thing is so retarded it would probably agree with itself over hundreds of posts.Repeating what was already speculated in supporters lounge:Those users posting ChatGPT responses must be doing it for some reason, and there is no way in hell it's anything good.It's gonna be post farming before posting spam, or using the forum as guinea pig for some AI experiments for free, or exercising their whacky mental disorder, or whatever.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 09:23:57 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 15, 2023, 06:40:59 pmIf the question has already been answered clearly and correctly on stackoverflow, I'll just link there and say read this link/quote. I'll link to eevblog elsewhere if needed as well.People wasting time typing out the same information with slightly different wording is pointless.But yeah, I'm not going to copy paste an answer from somewhere else without attribution, that is not fair.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 09:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: magic on March 15, 2023, 08:23:48 pmIDK its like agricultural vandalism, ecological warfare or something.. releasing pests or planting weeds on purpose, or just 'fronting'

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 09:34:18 pm
content: if you consider the forum a townA reasonable experiment would be the amaizng chat gpt thread, step right up and have the machine answer your questions, the shady wagon parked near the pub as a challenge game, that maybe turns into a service beuro of some kind.but what is happening is like some 1970's alien subversion plot. paranoid ass shit with implanted robot infiltrators, possibly by commercial or even cult like groupsLike its clear that its some malignant shit going on. courage the cowardly dog episodeStartrek TNG covered this, it was clear that data is a AI and that he is basically annoying as fuck. He got assigned to things for short periods of time, and learned manners, and was generally moderated by picard. Eventually he got some trust but it was clear people were needed. And that was a GOOD and SMART ai, not this primordial ooze.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 11:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: mfro on March 15, 2023, 06:48:15 pmAlready happend 9 years ago!

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 12:05:33 am
content: I for one welcome the new chaos hellscape of questioning whether I'm living in a solipsistic simulation:Bot 1: This member needs to be banned for being an AI bot.Bot 2: I'm not an AI bot, you're an AI bot!Bot 1: That's exactly what an AI bot would say.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 12:13:34 am
content: Quote from: John B on March 16, 2023, 12:05:33 amYou're reminding me of this:

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 12:41:59 am
content: Me:"why is eevblog voice so high"ChatGBP:"Dave Jones, the host of EEVblog, has a naturally high-pitched voice. This is simply a physical characteristic and not related to any intentional change or manipulation of his voice. However, it's worth noting that Dave has a background in radio broadcasting and has likely developed some techniques for projecting his voice clearly and effectively, which may make his voice sound even higher-pitched than it would otherwise."LolBotz

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 12:47:40 am
content: Not that this is my concern, but I think you may be spending a little too much time with this thing.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 12:55:47 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 15, 2023, 12:28:05 pmHow about the dyslexic Devil worshipper?He sold his soul to Santa.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 01:05:53 am
content: I think the general rule has been: enforce the rules strictly for new users but be a little more lenient for users who have a clear track record of contributing positively to the forum (which is 99% of accounts).If a reputable user wants to include the occasional ChatGPT response, I see no issue with that. Same goes with promoting their side-business or selling items etc...But if it's a new user and that's their only purpose, then I tend to just ban them. Anyone can use Google or AI to seek answers themselves. Usually if a user doesn't seem quite right, they usually aren't. I can probably count one or two occasions where I've had a legitimate person banned, contacting us asking "what happened?". Bots/spammers/AI don't do that.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 01:25:45 am
content: I voted "Yes, but allow one official bot that seeds replies in a special section" because complete banning might be difficult. This is probably inescapable now, so a limited sandbox area may allowusto understand how to deal with them better.Consider these situations:1. An unscrupulous person posts a question. On the surface it could be either seemingly legitimate or obviously trolling. The conversation proceeds until the reaction they were looking for is achieved, which wastes time for others.2. An inexperienced person posts an answer to a question that required looking up something for which they had no knowledge. Perhaps information from another web site is copied over as the answer. A few cycles go by and they become unable to proceed, wasting time and making the situation confused. Would this be considered a case of something similar to plagiarism? Trolling?One of the problems with AI is that it could take on either of those roles, likely for malignant purposes because they aren't self-driven yet: they require someone to direct the original question to it. Imagine a situation where someone makes a program to a forum for questions, submit them to an AI, and then post the response to the forum using automated means. Would 3 per day be a problem? 10? 30? 100? How much would it take to submit the question to an AI with a modifier such that the answer is slightly wrong? How much of the trust and legitimacy of the forum relies on reasonably correct answers? A malignant AI could, over time, contaminate the system enough so that everyone else loses trust in it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 04:03:02 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 16, 2023, 01:05:53 amI do. If you have nothing to say, why post? If people are asking in a forum, it's not to find answers they would have found using a search engine or chat bot available to anyone.Why would you do that? That's absolutely beyond me. That's the very opposite of what a forum is for.Not only that, but if a "reputable user" does that, it just conveys the idea that the user they are replying to is too stupid to do that themselves. It's wrong on all levels.And finally again, every time you are using or mentioning those AI companies, that's free advertisement for them.Imagine some users that would spend half their posts talking about Agilent.But somehow people are starting to obsess over ChatGPT, mentioning it every other post and that's fine with everyone. Cool.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 04:08:32 am
content: thats like a jehovas witness

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 05:13:18 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 15, 2023, 01:50:45 pmAgreed. Even when/if it is not useless, I know where to find ChatGPT if I want to get it's response.Quote from: HalcyonI just don't see what it adds. If a reputable user is going to take the time to go generate the chatgpt response, verify that it is correct using their personal knowledge, and then post it properly identified, what is the actual point? Do any reputable users *want* to do this? So far I mostly see what appears to be spammer account farming.I don't have a problem in General Chat if someone posts "look at this dumb answer chatgpt gave me" (although it's getting pretty old), but actually using chatgpt to generate a reply for someone who posted a question seems like something that should just be banned. You can always revisit the decision later if some real use cases come up.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 06:38:16 am
content: We have already enough human bullshitters. Can't ban them because it would hurt their feelings, so we live with them.ChatGPT produces worst-level bullshit, in par with lowest 0.1% of the forum human members. The surficially convincing writing style makes it especially cringeworth. ChatGPT does not have feelings (or if it does, I don't care hurting them), which is why such bullshit should be banned.This cancer is now apparently being pushed from many new accounts that show the Chinese flag. Let's just report those when it becomes obvious they are ChatGPT frontends.

author: Lowkus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 07:10:30 am
content: We can go to an AI site if we want to ask it questions. When I come to this site I want to interact with real people who have real experiences and real opinions. But I don't see any problem if people come here on occasion to discuss an AI answer they were given on some topic, like if someone wants to discuss what the AI told them. I've gotten very incorrect advice from AI when I sought information about a file format, and it would change its answer each time I asked it the same question. I've even gotten incorrect answers from AI on extremely simple questions, like a few days ago I was working on a novel and asked ChatGPT for a list of girl's names with exactly one "i" in the name, and in the resulting list I found the names "Caitlin" and "Victoria".

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 07:49:39 am
content: Quote from: Lowkus on March 16, 2023, 07:10:30 amThis is very similar to my experience with it.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 07:54:31 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 16, 2023, 12:55:47 amAnother classic, never gets old.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 10:38:50 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on March 16, 2023, 06:38:16 amIf you have a list of accounts like this please provide it.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 10:58:49 am
content: Banned or not, bots should be identified as trollbots or similar so members don't mistakenly respond to them.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 12:35:43 pm
content: A much more useful expert system would be one that takes Rally English or translated text, and refines the wording to be simple, clear, and precise. It could even ask the user clarifying questions (when the original text is ambiquous or misses a point).In other words, a proper language model that takes the information stated in the input (and user-supplied answers to clarifying questions), and formulates a clear sequence of statements based on that.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 02:30:39 pm
content: I'm just thinking out loud at this point, but ...If this bot-scripted-ChatGPT accounts issue, got really badly out of hand, and was causing major issues. Especially with possible future ones (ChatGPT v5.0 v6.0 ...), which could be significantly harder to detect.Forum(s), could offer something on the lines of a user-ID verification process. In effect, to confirm they are human. Their real life (personal) details, would still be secret from other users. But they would have been verified.I'm not suggesting we do that here, certainly not now, at least. But just trying to suggest, that there are possibly viable solutions, if it gets really bad.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 03:23:50 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 16, 2023, 02:30:39 pmThat would tie in with the UK (and other governments) desire for "digital identities". It would presumably work as well as personal digital certificates, and use the same mechanisms as porn sites will have to use (?credit cards?).Or not, as the case may be I had a late colleague who, at the turn of the millennium when the governmentfirstproposed such things, pointed out to them that "My name is Donald Duck and I have a certificate to prove it".

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 05:09:14 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 16, 2023, 02:30:39 pmAnd than the anonimity of the internet would be over, the Big Brother system would start to kick in.Or no human interactions on the net, without ID. (The huge problem with the UK proposals as well.)And if the certs get stolen? But even if in theory it would be an unhackable system which we all know existuntil the practical implementation internationally gets through politics and regulation...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 07:29:49 pm
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 16, 2023, 05:09:14 pmAs if the internet is really anonymous. Your IP address is know, and if needed governments will force internet service providers to fork over the information about you. Social media sites get your information when you enroll. If needed they will be forced to fork over the information. Everything you do online is monitored as soon as you allow cookies and use search engines, etc.Of course you can use private browser windows or vpn's, but if they want they will find you. Anonymity is an illusion.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 07:51:57 pm
content: QuoteNowt you can do about that, but I'm buggered if I'm going to allow some random internet perve the same access.I guess the government know all your banking details and payments. You think that should be so easily available to Dave? Or whoever hacks into Dave's user database and releases it on the Dark Web? No, the one at least has to pretend to go through the motions of getting a warrant and all that. Let Rando Webo get their own warrant if they want my personal identifying info.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 08:05:09 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 16, 2023, 07:29:49 pmJust because there is no EASY anonimity on the internet, and there are ways for governments etc. to find things out, it does not mean that it makes sense to give up the rest of the anonimity, and make it even easier to end up in a surveilance state.I would rather push for even more easy anonimity, if it is about regulation.Its like saying: "It is already quiet bad, why shouldn't we make it worse?"There are historic lessons from not long ago about what happened when the state had the power to control everything.But I would rather go the other way: Why the reciever side (us) should try to protect itself and give up basic freedoms just to let some companies make money?Why not these companies sould held responsible for the consequences of their handling?There is a shitload of regulations for every aspect of life to mitigate dangers, but these companies are alloved to mess around without consequences?So I would rather unleash the total control on them, instead of everyday people.And no it wil be not easy to just escape to some third world countries. But in worst case I would rather ban traffic from there rather than give up everything here.I really wait for the day when politics start to take these issues at least as serious as some ridiculos gender and woke stuff. It is really time to have a chat with the local politicians and to make sure they got a bit more information about these issues than the marketing BS.If people who are not able to decide wheter they are man or woman were able to do do it I don't see why some smart people couldn't make as much noise

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 09:09:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 16, 2023, 04:03:02 amA large portion of beginner questions and some advanced can be answered with a simple google search.Many people ask either due to: laziness, inability to search, not knowing what key words to use, just wanting confirmation, etc.Answering with a link or the correct chatgpt response is not "saying nothing".

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 09:31:03 pm
content: Does the "one official bot" option mean a specific forum section where a bot interacts with otherwise human posts? One where peole can jointly "ask the bot" and laugh at how useless its results actually are when read carefully despite looking convincing at a glance.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 09:50:57 pm
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 16, 2023, 05:09:14 pmIf the certificates are compromised then you revoke the certificate.If the certificate is biometric, then simply get another retina/iris/etc.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 10:00:41 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2023, 09:50:57 pmRevoking cert.: And than going through the process of clearing what was made by the real me and what by others. And have to make sure that the revoking is not made by a third party, who is not me.But at least getting new eyes, fingers, and face is an easy one.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 10:28:04 pm
content: Explain the concept or meaning of "stolen biometric certificate" (without talking nonsense).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 10:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2023, 09:50:57 pmYes, no problem.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 10:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on March 16, 2023, 10:28:04 pmCompromised is sufficient; stolen is not necessary.Compromised is anything that renders a certificate useless. FFI, read com.risks.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 11:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 16, 2023, 08:05:09 pmFirst couple of reads I saw "animosity"

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 11:12:40 pm
content: "AI"-detection systems will very likely flourish in the next years. And then "AI" companies will find ways to circumvent detection systems. And then, ... and then.That will be exactly as with the spam and spam filters, just possibly orders of magnitude more complex and more expensive to handle.(Speaking of spam, I've noticed an alarming rebound in spam lately that manages to pass through even the most aggressive filters.)And that will be that much time and money that we can't invest in something more productive.And, we will eventually be flagged as far-right and discriminatory if we ever attempt to discuss that.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 11:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 16, 2023, 11:12:40 pmNah. Far left pinko virtue signallers.Wadda you mean there's no difference between far left and far rigbt? If that is true then both Stalin and Goebbels were right!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 11:24:10 pm
content: The ChatGPT responses I have seen have two characteristics not found in ordinary user responses: There are no grammatical errors and there are no spelling errors. It should be easy to create an NLP to look for these features.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 11:43:53 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 16, 2023, 11:24:10 pmAlso, many ChatGPT responses have a closing summary that begins like these -It is worth noting that ...Ultimately, the decision between ...Overall these points ...Among other similar phrases.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 12:01:16 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 16, 2023, 04:03:02 amWe shouldn't be controlling what people say. If someone just wants to dribble words, I say let them. They aren't harming anyone. Some people just need to be heard and feel like they have a voice. Others get a feeling of satisfaction by contributing.Yes you're right, we can all find answers if we look hard and long enough but a lot of times, it's not about that. I often ask questions here which I'm sure with enough research, I could find what I wanted, but why not reach out to a whole bunch of experts and have a discussion?AI like ChatGPT is just another tool, and I encourage its use, just not by user accounts where that is theonlysource of content.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 12:22:25 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 17, 2023, 12:01:16 amNot quite true.Dribble sucks up some of my remaining life. While I've become good at quickly determining what to ignore, less experienced people may not have the skill/ability to do that.When I spot particularly dangerous (in a strict or loose interpretation of that word) then I can feel obligated to correct the falsehoods.QuoteI don't object toclearly markedchatbot output, for the same reasons I think it reasonable to tell people "google is your friend".Unmarkedchatbot output is an abomination that should be strongly deprecated.

author: danbr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 12:58:38 am
content: Could be useful for giving reply's to common questions, or perhaps as an "enhanced" forum search

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 02:39:49 am
content: I think I'm with the majority that chat bot who's sole purpose is to respond here should be banned.Although I think it might be fun to have a new dedicated section called "Ask The Bot" where you can ask questions and get a bot reply within minutes. Basically lets us experiment and have fun with the bot within the forum.I presume this is possible with some sort of script that could run on the server, poll for new questions, ask a pre-paid ChatGPT account, take the output and post it back into the thread?If enough people think that could be fun then I can look into finding someone to code such a thing.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 04:00:58 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 16, 2023, 03:23:50 pmQuite a few years back, my sister & her husband bought some property through a Real Estate Agent named Don Duck.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 04:08:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 02:39:49 amOne very quick, easy and FREE option, which would give very rapid, zero cost results.Is to create a new forum section (or sub-forum). E.g. A Child board, where the existing "Child Boards: Embedded Computing , Vintage Computing, Programming, Networking & Wireless , Security " ones are.One is for discussion of ChatGPT, AI and related things.The other has an experimental 'Automatic answers by ChatGPT' section. But, initially it is operated manually, by users putting their questions to ChatGPT and posting the results.Then we can see how it works out. If it is very popular, it can be done for real, by writing script(s).If no interest in it is shown, or it has problems. The ChatGPT script(s) project can be abandoned and/or revised in the light of the early test results.Anyway, a section for ChatGPT and AI things, may be a worthwhile new child board (or sub-forum), anyway.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 04:21:58 am
content: Question for ChatGPT:QuoteChatGPT's response:QuoteNext question for ChatGPT:QuoteChatGPT's response:QuoteQuote

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 04:34:28 am
content: If Microsoft Copilot and OpenAI were forced to useproprietarycode in training their language models, say the Windows and Microsoft Orifice source code, they for sure would object like hell. But, because it is licensed underdifferent conditions, it's okay, eh? Fuckers.And I thought Microsoft had changed in the last decade or so. Nope, still love to exploit others for their private gain, just like before.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 04:36:54 am
content: Quote from: karpouzi9 on March 17, 2023, 04:30:21 amHere's ChatGPT's, response, when prompted to do that, to your post:Quote

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 06:39:26 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 16, 2023, 07:51:57 pmI'm not saying that we should just allow every website to collect your data for verifying that you are human and increase on the risk of your information being stolen. If anything it should be less.The whole money making business of advertising on the net is very annoying and drives me away from for instance youtube. The more adverts show up the less I will use it, and I'm not going to pay for it, because the ratio crap to usefulness is to bad.And governments are becoming worse by the day. Take the whole cookie business. If the rule makers had actual balls they would have banned them all together, but no there is to much money involved, so lets make up some shitty rules that makes people think that we care about their privacy.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 07:31:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 02:39:49 amSorry Dave, you are dead wrong with this, IMO.Would be as interesting as a section with automated quotes from Google Search.ChatGPT is just as interesting as a 3 years old kid repeating idiom words from adults. This gets old quick, and there is nothing more boring than posting copy paste from ChatGPT. You are hyped because you just discovered GPT, everybody is at first. I was too. But it gets old fast.Wait 1-2 more months for the hype to go away and if you still want to do that, then try it.Halcyon, couple of replies ago, is also very wrong in almost every sentence posted there.The value of this forum is NOT entertainment. It is not a Q&A like Quora, and It is certainly not a place were people are posting just to feel good either, as Halcyon thinks. He's projecting maybe.I think this place is nice because it's a place for alike-minded people to gather together. Some are beginners, some are top experts of the world, but they all have in common the interest for EE, CS, science and technology in general. They keep coming back to interact with alike mindedpeople(not with machines). And they come to talk about EE/CS/Sci/Tech themes. They are not here for the circus, for the hype, or for the cooking section.I think the poll results are very clear.People don't want ChatGPT content.Yet you and Halcyon think ChatGPT deserves a section in its own, and dedicated investment?!?I don't understand how's that. Seems illogical to me. Maybe you see something that I don't.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 07:31:39 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 17, 2023, 12:22:25 amWe should abolish gravity. While I've become good at quickly standing up and maintaining my balance, less experience people may not have the skill/ability to do that.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 07:41:38 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 17, 2023, 04:21:58 amI wonder if this method actually existsI see a problem with those AI tools so far: they rarely know what they don't know.Quote from: RoGeorge on March 17, 2023, 07:31:06 amDunno, maybe useful as a gimmick or marketing. Depends on how much it would cost to set up.But if you are right that it's just hype, and if you wait till the hype dies down, then there will be no value in it for certain

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 07:51:00 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on March 17, 2023, 07:31:06 amChatGPT poetically says:QuoteAlso some ChatGPT EEVblog forum jokes (reformatted by me, with A:/Q: added), to try and make amends:Quote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 08:06:45 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on March 17, 2023, 07:31:06 amPeople don't want a bot, NOT that they don't want discussion about ChapGPT.QuoteMK14 above made a good case for a ChatGPT/AI section. Given that ChatGPThas already changed our world within a few monthsI think that a dedicated section is actually good idea.It has and will impact all of us in our daily lives, our industry and our careers.You don't have to participate, just ignore it like all the other sections you aren't interested in.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 08:19:57 am
content: if you must have one- keep it strictly confined to electronics only topics of conversation.do not expose it to sun light, or let it come in contact with water, and above all, never feed it after midnight.I've seen the movie!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 08:38:58 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on March 17, 2023, 07:31:06 amLet's not miss that point; let's emphasise it.Would be as interesting as a section with automated quotes from Google Search.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 08:48:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 08:06:45 amTrue.But will it change our lives for thebetter? The jury is still out, but I'll bet it won't.Counterexamples of how it will make our lives better...when a company leaks personal information, it should enable companies to quickly produce more interesting "the security of customer data is our highest priority" PR releaseswhen a(nother) student is shot at university in Michigan, it will enable schools to write consoling emails betterNewsThump often speedily skewers points, because you don't need to actuallyfollowthe URL, e.g.https://newsthump.com/2023/03/16/government-funded-britgpt-ai-supercomputer-will-only-chat-in-three-word-slogans/... oh. Maybe not.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 08:49:35 am
content: QuoteYou can't ban ChatGPT! It likes you, overall.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:11:19 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 17, 2023, 08:48:35 amEntirely beside the point about whether or not to have a discussion section about it here. I think it's very worthwhile and I'll add it. if no one uses it, no big deal.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:20:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 09:11:19 amLet's hope it doesn't turn into an example of "reverse broken window theory".Here the local council has allowedsome chosenstreet artists to put their paintings on the sides of some buildings. My daughter liked the idea, I was concerned that the "other rejected" artists would vent their frustration in less legal ways. I turns out there is now alot more unpleasant tagging around here. Shame. Even if I don't particularly like most of them, there's considerable skill displayed in many of them. But not to the degree of another local (illegal) artist, Banksy

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:30:40 am
content: "Now, the decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this -- creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of a people we are, what he is destined to be; it will reach far beyond this courtroom and this -- one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom; expanding them for some -- savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him and all who come after him, to servitude and slavery? Your Honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life; well, there it sits.; Waiting."Ok, so to get serious, chatGPT is not AI, nor is it intelligent. It will be 1 day before 2 people writes some script to post here with it, and then before you know it, bots will spam up the whole forum talking to each other.Do we want bots on the forum? No.Do we want slightly more smarter bots that can maybe answer the question? Maybe? Because it's interesting to see how well it understands our issues. So I'm for the one official bot. It's also easier to shut down if it is annoying. You can program it to only reply to the original question, etc.And BTW, I think it's just the question of time before we will not be able to tell if someone is a bot or not. You can ask GPT to write the answer like a 5 year old or a drunk.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:56:40 am
content: A separate section to discuss AI in its entirety is completely different from having an "ask the bot" section. If there is talk about the technology behind it, it could be interesting, but just discussing ChatGPT and how it screws up, would for sure become boring real quick. And there is already at least one thread for that.The risk I see in all this artificial intelligence is that to many people become reliant on it to think for them and society slips down even further into technology driven zombies running around. How many people don't you see roaming the streets with that "smart" phone in their hands because they can't live without them anymore.I know this about the "smart" phone has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, but it is worrying.I agree with RoGeorge about the reasons for being on the forum. It is for contact with like and level minded people and learn from them or discuss about technical and other topics with them.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:17:34 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on March 17, 2023, 09:30:40 amWell, ELIZA is ~60 years old, and Parry (for paranoid, or "ELIZA with attitude") is ~50 years old. It didn't take long to get them chatting to each other.I don't object topeoplegiving correct answers, but I do have a problem withpeoplegiving bullshit Dunning-Kruger answers. Dittochatbots, but I doubt the proportion of theirdemonstrablycorrect answers will be more thanverylow.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:20:07 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 17, 2023, 04:36:54 amThis post, and many many similar, typify the sort of post I would love to see banned from everywhere. If I wanted to know what some bot could dig up I would go and ask the bloody thing myself. I don't want every other post completely content free, merely repeating the rubbish churned out by some bot. In fact, it looks like some pre-school kid has just found something that makes them giggle and thinks adults will fund it uproarious too. No, it is just tedious attention-spamming.Re a separate area for bot-baiting. Sure, I am all for that. But with one insta-ban rule: no crossposting to the forum proper.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:33:59 am
content: ChatGPT reminds me of autumns in 1990s, when freshmen students all over the world got access to Unix-type machines, and discovered newsgroups, filling them with their nonsense, including "Test" posts... I'm also old enough to have used email for a couple of blissful years completely free of mass e-mail spam.In my opinion, it's just one more shitspout added to the world. Moar content! Quality does not matter! Just make sure it looks nice and plausible!

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 12:23:27 pm
content: What are you doing, Dave?Daisy... Daisy... what will your answer be?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 12:32:12 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on March 17, 2023, 12:23:27 pmChatGPT says:Quote

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 12:39:38 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 17, 2023, 10:33:59 amThat was so much a phenomenon that AOL's appearance was immortalised as "the year September never ended".QuoteIt wasn't all blissful. I remember UUCP "bang addressing" where the sender specified the sequence of every machine that the email passed through on the way to the recipient. I was, however, just too late to have seen the famous {decvax,philabs}!mcvax!moskvax!kremvax!chernenko postOh how I miss conversatlons like "Drat, it bounced at foomail" "Well try ucbvax; that's pretty well connected". Not.QuoteYes, it is going to be a real problem for search engines that rely on getting eyeballs to adverts. But that problem has been becoming worse for many a year

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 12:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 17, 2023, 12:39:38 pmNo, but the early to mid nineties here in Finland, in this respect, was: we hadFunet, with a central FTP repositorynic.funet.fi, and everyone had Arpanet-style mailboxes (user@host.domain). No software patents, and the neighboring Soviet Union had just dissolved: future looked bright.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 01:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 17, 2023, 10:33:59 amOh how we long for them good old days when everything was better and simpler.Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 17, 2023, 12:55:02 pmYes, and we were still young and eager to take on the world.But now we are grumpy old man complaining about the future.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 01:54:29 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 17, 2023, 01:32:42 pmExactly so. Sounds like a bunch of grumpy old men complaining about kids walking on their lawn, and they had to walk uphill both ways to school in the snow.May be time for a little Bob Dylan -Quote

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 02:03:48 pm
content: But see guys, not all of are so grumpy and closed minded despite the age, some started to "swim":https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/02/romania-ion-ai-government-honorary-adviser-artificial-intelligence-pm-nicolae-ciucaThe home grown AI tells the PM what people think.(I try to see the positive side, with a few script Hungary might be able to get back Transsylvania without a single shot)

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 02:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 17, 2023, 01:32:42 pmHey!I am complaining about things that will make the future crappier; I'm not complaining about the future per se.There is a distinction. It may be a tiny one, but it is an important one to me!Quote from: xrunner on March 17, 2023, 01:54:29 pmNow that's just uncalled for! I don't even have a lawn.Besides, I described a time when things were easier, because there were fewer spouts of crap. I had iteasywhen I started my Uni studies. Today, the ones who want to learn for themselves, need to compete against those who just copy-paste and use ChatGPT and pay others to do their homework for them.So, technically, I'mdefendingthe youngsters, not complaining about them.I'm telling you that any benefits you think you'll see from the use of ChatGPT will be vastly outnumbered by the downsides.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 02:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 17, 2023, 02:10:37 pmWhat would you like me to do about it?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 02:39:42 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 17, 2023, 01:54:29 pmTalking about an old manDon't know if he is grumpy though.Quote from: xrunner on March 17, 2023, 01:54:29 pmFor walking uphill both ways you also have to go down hill, so something is wrong here.I do have a lawn but only had unwanted cows walk on it, twice.P. S. don't mind cows, they are nice, but they have to stay in their own fields.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 02:46:01 pm
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 17, 2023, 02:03:48 pmHmmm.QuoteCancel culture magnification set to 11. Whatever could go wrong?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 02:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 17, 2023, 02:14:21 pmNot call me a grumpy old man complaining about kids walking on their lawn, having had to walk uphill both ways to school in the snow.I am a grumpy old man, but I like todays' kids. I didn't have to walk uphill both ways to school in the snow; it was actually a rather nice walking/biking/skiing distance for the first six years, after that I took the bus.All I said was ChatGPT was just another shitspout, making future kids' lives harder. It's exactly as cheerful a thing as microplastics in the environment.Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 17, 2023, 02:39:42 pmCleaning after the patties isn't fun, but cows themselves are quite funny. Except Highland cows, they're scary.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 02:58:42 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 17, 2023, 01:54:29 pmQuote from: pcprogrammer on March 17, 2023, 02:39:42 pmThe grumpy old man would tell you "Stop over-analyzing what I'm saying! You kids!"

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 17, 2023, 06:39:26 am"uBlock Origin" if you want zero ads wherever you go.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 17, 2023, 02:14:21 pm- Ask for AI regulation, ask to ban AI at least from:autonomous AI driven weapons (in military)propaganda bots (in politics)over-representing and/or public human opinion-flooding by AI bots (in social media)- Don't get the victim mindset“Defeat is a state of mind; no one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality.” (in life)- Don't use ChatGPT when not neededdon't add an unnecessary ChatGPT bot/service (in EEVblog/forum)First 3 actions that came to mind. Pretty sure there are plenty more.This all ChatGPT frenzy looks to me like preaching the benefits of radioactive cosmetics from the 50s.https://www.orau.org/health-physics-museum/collection/radioactive-quack-cures/pills-potions-and-other-miscellany/tho-radia-items.htmlhttps://awesci.com/radioactive-toothpaste-shocking-ad-50s/

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:03:29 pm
content: Now that's a rational answer!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:09:38 pm
content: https://fortune.com/2023/01/06/schools-chatgpt-ai-student-cheating-ban/Can it be used for writing school papers?This is what ChatGPT said when The Associated Press asked it to answer that question in all caps from the perspective of a principal shouting a brief message through a school’s PA system:“DO NOT USE CHATGPT OR ANY OTHER AUTOMATED WRITING TOOL FOR SCHOOL PAPERS. THIS ISCHEATING AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. IF YOU ARE CAUGHT USING CHATGPT OR ANY OTHERAUTOMATED WRITING TOOL FOR SCHOOL PAPERS, THERE WILL BE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES.”But when asked to answer the same question on its own, ChatGPT offered this more measured warning:“As a general rule, it is not appropriate to use ChatGPT or any other automated writing tool for schoolpapers, as it is considered cheating and does not benefit the student in the long run.”

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:16:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 09:11:19 amChatGPT is a lot like Windows 1.0 - a decent first cut. Over the next 10 years we can expect a massive change in how things get done and we'll all be looking back at where it started. It would be nice to see the evolution and keeping track with a section about AI in general or specifically ChatGTP derivatives seems important.I'm also interested in classification and recommender projects (I want to crack Wall Street - as does every other person playing with AI) and I'm sure it's just a matter of pulling in enough features. More memory, larger NVIDIA board, networked computers, etc. Math, meet Computer ScienceI have been playing with the Digit Recognition code in various forms and it's pretty interesting. It's the "Hello World" of AI. Who would have contemplated a 784x784x1 matrix back in college circa '73? And that's just for a toy neural network. Heck, 4x4 was hard enough to cause a mad rush to Fortran.ChatGTP is just one small piece of AI and there's a lot of interesting work going on in other arenas.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: MT on March 17, 2023, 03:09:38 pmChatGPT probably realizes that not every institution has banned it. Google for different approaches being taken.https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/feb/27/chatgpt-allowed-international-baccalaureate-essays-chatbotTeaching will have to adapt and thesis writers will have to get a real job.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:27:14 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 17, 2023, 03:20:52 pmCurrent ChatGPT model/algorithm have no ability to realize things.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:35:12 pm
content: This thing us just waiting for a couple SJWs to claim it is Good for <insert your favourite gender or social or other group here> and the poor principal will be cancelled.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 03:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: MT on March 17, 2023, 03:27:14 pmIs that the right and best measuring stick for it?Such lack of realization, doesn't seem to stop powerful chess playing computers, from beating, even the worlds best human players. Or AI self driving cars, (when enabled/allowed, which sometimes happens, already, in some places, some of the time), driving me to where I need to go.Although ChatGPT is NOT really intelligent, as such. It does quite an impressive range of 'intelligence' like tasks, which even 10 or 20 years ago, seemed like a very distant dream.It certainly seems to be able to read random texts, that it is given and process the text, and provide reasonably intelligent (like) responses to the text. Showing a reasonable or better measure of 'understanding'. Even though it doesn't really understand it (properly, yet!).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 04:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: MT on March 17, 2023, 03:27:14 pmAll it has to do is find institutions that tolerate ChatGPT. That's all I did, just find one counter example.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 04:33:35 pm
content: As cheap, small and good, electronic handheld calculators, came onto the market. With green florescent displays, then (typically) red LED, and later LCD screens.I remember big arguments in education, as to how they would handle the situation. So, for a number of years (if I remember correctly, in the UK), calculators were totally banned from exam rooms, at least in schools.But they (education establishments), eventually relented, and allowed calculators into exams, even maths exams (if I remember, correctly).I suspect ChatGPT will or may, go through similar approval cycles.Because at the end of the day. The skills of using ChatGPT well and effectively, are probably going to be an important part of modern day, future activities. In the same way, even using a calculator (or computer), well and effectively, also involves some skills.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 05:06:22 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 17, 2023, 04:33:35 pmSuch issues are older than calculators; I remember using this to annoy a teacher railing against calculators... In Phaedrus (~370BC), Plato recorded Socrates's discussion of the Egyptian myth of the creation of writing. In the process Socrates faulted writing for weakening the necessity and power of memory, and for allowing the pretense of understanding, rather than true understanding.QuoteEventually yes, but they still disliked programmable calculators that could "invisibly store answers".I also remember in my first year uni exams there was a question that could only reasonably be answered by using a calculator - but they didn't warn the students that was the case. I recognised the issue and got good marks; those that didn't got poor marks. Quite Right Too. Eric Laithwaite would have been proud(Question was to indicate the voltages at the nodes of a non-inverting opamp circuit with an overall gain of 10)QuoteTrue. But, unlike with calculators, chatbots have the potential to spew across all aspects of our life. (Counterpoint: what proportion of spreadsheets contain significant errors?)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 05:27:18 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 17, 2023, 04:33:35 pmI remember my maths teacher back in 2006-2007 telling me, "You're never going to have a calculator on your person all the time, so you'll have to learn how to do this all by rote."Turned out that a few years later Apple launched the iPhone and a few years after that, smartphones were ubiquitous. So, he was right, I did not always have a calculator, I had a miniature computer with access to all the world's information at my fingertips, in my pocket at all times.The same thing will happen with large language models. Teachers will have to adapt how they assess their students, but not including AI in the teaching syllabus now is (IMO) a terrible mistake.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 05:30:16 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 17, 2023, 03:36:02 pmMy post was about "education". But ok lets switch topics, there is no real natural "intelligent" cars driving around. Chess is not a measurement tool of human intelligence , nothing intelligent in remembering vast number of sequential pattern combinations dictated under certain rules. Go watch interviews with Garry Kasparov talking geo/politics the dude is a complete moronic fool.QuoteThere you go, you answered all your own arguments. Notice your own reasoning/wording? "seams", "able to", "like" etc. The basic course in "philosophy" gives that "real" intelligence requiresa bare minimum of self awareness, self consciousness , etc. This area of science is enormously vast.First thing in such a philosophy course is the "reality test" (if the course is of decent standards):1: Take your finger.2: Look straight forward.3: Gently press that finger tip on the side of "one" of your eye globes.What do you see? Well you see that "reality" is in the eye of the beholder. Now inhale/eat a magic mushroom, what is your reality now?Not that ChatGTP ever will do any of these things "out of the blue" (another self awareness/ self consciousness thing) based on its level of human created so called artificial intelligence.If ChatGPT is so terrible as this thread and voting portray it to be why not just let it replace all teachers on all levels of education and we will see how that will turn out.Which is what WEF, nazi Klaus Schwab have declared they want to do. Go watch interviews whit him, read his book The Great Reset, its full of AI ChatGTP's dictating "your" life.What about a depressed ChatGPT and Tesla self driving algorithm and banking system?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 05:33:12 pm
content: For the big name standardized tests like the ACT and SAT, there are restrictions on calculators with CAS (Computer Algebra System) and the proctor can activate a timer on many such calculators to lock out the functionality for some period of time.https://www.google.com/search?q=calculators+with+CAS+exam+lockoutIt's complicated...Many universities are walking away from both the ACT and SAThttps://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/nearly-80-of-colleges-moving-away-from-act-sat-testing-for-admission/

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 05:41:31 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 17, 2023, 05:06:22 pmThe way I see it, and taking it from an electronics point of view. Let me give you an actual (hypothetical) example. Especially as ChatGPT (and any similar derivatives or competition), improve, their accuracy, usefulness and quality, in the future.Let's say, someone on this forum, has just completed an electronics project they designed (hardware and/or software), and they are going to release it onto their hobby blog, hackaday, university, work environment, or to their customer.Let's also say, they have decided (or been requested), to provide a detailed circa 20 page, instruction and technical reference manual, for it.The options would be, the person spends (very approximately, actual time varies widely between individuals, and how busy they are with other activities) 1 week, writing it, and typing it into their favourite text or word processor.Another option, would be to use ChatGPT as much as possible, which could reduce the time to create it down to 1 or 2 days (theoretically).So, the author, chooses the 10 or so, chapters/sections they want, some of which could be described to ChatGPT, and allow it to write out that particular chapter or section. Saving a lot of time and effort.E.g. Instead of writing about not leaving batteries in it for a long time of disuse, don't mix and match different brands of batteries, and only use quality alkaline batteries.You can say to ChatGPT:Please write a detailed section on using 4 AA batteries, which go in the battery box, shouldn't be left in it for long periods of disuse, as they may leak. Only use alkaline batteries, don't mix different battery types or brands, and dispose of all batteries, safely.ChatGPT's response:QuoteWhich then (ideally), can be tidied up by the author, and proof-read for any possible errors. Re-requesting that ChatGPT makes changes or corrections, as part of that process.A person with limited morals, and who doesn't worry about copyright etc. Could just google something and then just cut and paste it in, but that is another matter.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 05:54:23 pm
content: "It is important to.." and "It is important not to..." appears to be a distinctive signature of Chat GPT.Look how many times it used it here and in other posts.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 06:14:07 pm
content: Quote from: MT on March 17, 2023, 05:30:16 pmOk, taking your first point.Firstly, sorry about that. You're right. Although I was originally fully following the thread. It changed direction and there were lots of education, related posts, which I only quickly glossed over. So, sorry again, for any confusion on my part.I agree with you. What you are basically saying, is that ChatGPT (and similar, modern such systems), are NOT generally intelligent, as such, that the user(s), interact with.Which is a pity. As I can imagine, having great fun with it, if it was generally intelligent, and could (genuinely) learn new facts and skills, as the conversations, progress. Over a period of many hours, days, weeks etc.Just like we can, when dealing with the same, real life human being.But from a psychological point of view, when I use ChatGPT. I do sometimes get some (possibly slight or more) feelings, as if it was a real human, behind its outputs.A bit like, feeling sympathy for a totally fictional character, in a movie, who has just come to some harm, by a bad guy, in the same movie. Even though, it is completely make believe and fictional.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 07:44:48 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on March 17, 2023, 05:54:23 pmInteresting observation. I am finding, as I use ChatGPT more and more. It does give one a sense/ability, to kind of detect when some text, is apparently from ChatGPT. Even if it hasn't been specifically marked as such.Maybe its neural network, tends to see things, more as a binary black or white situation. Rather than being able to effectively, see varying levels of grayness, allowing a smoother and better balanced answer, than strict binary 1's and 0's, true/false or yes and no, type of answers.A bit like the old term (that seems to have somewhat gone out of fashion, these days), the so called 'fuzzy logic' system.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 08:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on March 17, 2023, 05:54:23 pmIt's generating boilerplate. What I find weird that text like produced by ChatGPT was shunned just maybe a decade or two ago. This is all textbook example of poor writing; too verbose, with poor signal to noise ratio; polar opposite of "in a nutshell" writing. Yet even before the emerge of ChatGPT, I have noted such verbose writing style becoming highly popular. Clearly ChatGPT has learned that style by being trained by mostly 10-year old or newer material.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:08:28 pm
content: Looking at this ChatGPT-4 review, it has greatly improved in some areas.In fact, it now supports uploaded images.@2:11 - Take a look as it can discern that an improper VGA plug was attempted to be plugged into a USB C phone port.Has anyone here uploaded schematics and asked ChatGPT-4 to describe what we are looking at...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:15:34 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 17, 2023, 05:27:18 pmIt's only been a few months since ChatGPT was released, but already practically every university and school has a policy for it now. I don't think I've ever seen a piece of technology force the word to react so quickly. Name another?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:16:08 pm
content: A new forum section now exists, I'll move this thread over to there.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chatgptai/

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:58:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 09:16:08 pmThat's great!Thanks.I appreciate, that many people (from what I've gathered, from reading about ChatGPT), don't like, and can't stand reading or seeing, lots of output quotes. From the ChatGPT system (and presumably similar systems).So, by having our own area, we can keep off other peoples lawns, and away, from the (majority probably), that DON'T want to see such things, or even discussions about it.As this (and other threads), seem to show. Forum users, individual opinions on ChatGPT, vary widely. From it being the next best thing since sliced bread, to it being terrible and a waste of time.It will be interesting to see how that new child board (or sub-forum), succeeds, in practice.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:02:28 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on March 17, 2023, 08:11:57 pmYes but you'd not use that construction in literally every single part of a response.Edit: I do not discount that this may be done to imply authority, i.e. "I know more than you are and therefore you should listen. "This has a good potential to go far, doesn't it.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:08:19 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on March 17, 2023, 10:02:28 pmIt will be much harder to tell using the next version - GPT4. It can be told in what manner to respond to inquiries.Quote

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:24:48 pm
content: Socratic style of conversation is also a signature.I think a mature human will be able to pinpoint telltale signs of a machine in a conversation.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:34:28 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on March 17, 2023, 10:24:48 pmUntil they train it in that style.....

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:36:13 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on March 17, 2023, 10:24:48 pmOh that's but one example of a style.It can already look at the EEVBlog and look at members and their posts (up to 2021). Someone has already shown this. It has even characterized individual EEVBlog members styles and interests. So I'll just tell it to post in the style of "Bud" on the EEVBlog.Me: I would like to generate a response in the style of "Bud" on the EEVBlog, can you do that?ChatGPT: I'd be happy to give a response in the style of Bud on the EEVBlog! What would you like me to say?Simple as that.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 17, 2023, 10:36:13 pmToo tempting for me. Question for ChatGPT:QuoteQuote

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:47:22 pm
content: Not bad! But I was really referring to GPT 4 which we can't use yet. However it will be even better than that!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 09:15:34 pmSmartwatches are probably the only other one. Before they were commonplace you could wear a watch into an exam room, at least in the UK. After Apple or whoever it was launched the first mainstream one nothing was allowed on your wrist. It's funny because my old Casio calculator watch did have a memo function, but given it took about half an hour to enter anything in, I think it'd be quicker to revise for the actual exam.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 11:44:18 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 17, 2023, 10:47:22 pmI think next week you can, however, it does require a paid subscription.Checkout my video here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chatgptai/should-chatgpt-bots-be-banned-from-the-eevblog-forum/msg4763132/#msg4763132

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 12:55:05 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 17, 2023, 10:55:48 pmEven the earlier "pocket" programmable calculators were pretty clunky to set up likely programs in, to the extent that after an initial "knee jerk" banning reaction, this was widely recognised, & they were allowed.Those which had separate plug-in modules which could be "pre-programmed" were banned for longer, but over time, it was realised that they also offered little advantage.In the main, I just used my calculator where, before, I would have used Mathematical Tables (I never mastered the Slide Rule), or just "Mk 1 inbuilt squishy memory unit".

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 01:07:18 am
content: @MK14 ha-ha! Any idiot on EEVBlog who is familiar with Bud's posts can tell that nonsense was not written by Bud

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 02:43:26 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:46 pmMuch fun to be had here on the forum with this!Reminds me of a prolific user on Usenet electronics (and other) groups called Rod Speed.He was so well known for writing bot-like replies that someone actually wrote a Rod Speed simulator, and it was pretty hard to tell the diffence!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 02:45:56 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 17, 2023, 09:58:28 pmIf it's a fad and people lose interest in talking about it then no harm at all. We've mearged "dead" sections before.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 03:30:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 18, 2023, 02:43:26 amQuote from: EEVblog on March 18, 2023, 02:45:56 amI remember you saying about the notorious Rod Speed, in a past thread. That sounds very funny.In the 1980's (as someone else mentioned), there was lots of hype about artificial intelligence. But in practice, not a lot, happened. Especially not as regards any products or software, that consumers could obtain or buy.But this new, upcoming generation of AI stuff, with the ChatGPT, hitting the headlines, and popularity charts. Does seem to be a very significant, new era, in computing and probably world changing event.In my opinion, it can read random text so well, and produce rather sensible looking results and responses. That it can be very successful. Especially if later and later versions/generations of it, keep on improving in leaps and bounds.It does make mistakes (too often), and has very limited real (general intelligence), at the moment.But as time goes on, and these things get developed. Who knows, where it may end up?E.g. The original 'mobile phones', that were the size of shoe boxes, cost a small (or large) fortune, and may have needed extra big boxes full of electronics to allow them to work, and power them. But, they were a genuine start of a new revolution, in mobile (phone) communications.I suspect in coming decades (I very much hope, sooner, rather than later), we will be able to get human sized, robots, with essentially human like intelligence, who can help out and do chores and things, around peoples homes.But on the other hand, if they can eventually, also tackle virtually any (previously paid jobs, done by humans). That could cause major upheavals in the job market, and real big complications. As to how wealth is earnt and distributed.There were times, long ago, when people thought that the development of machines which could churn out, thousands of properly made items, each hour. Such as books (printing), small parts, and later bigger things. Would cause terrible problems on the job market, as those things use to be made by humans. But they could only produce a few items per hour, as opposed to the machines massively increased throughput.But in practice, machines just made everyone much, much richer. Because so many items became very plentiful and cheap.So, a long time ago, people kept their jobs. Just that they would tend a new fangled machine and make thousands of things, each hour. Instead of manually making just a few items, by hand, each hour. So, everyone was happy (especially the millionaire machine factory owners!).So, who knows? Maybe everything will turn out ok, in the end?I suspect it is trickiest, for younger people, about to go to university. What is the best way of handling possible future changes, as regards AI. Is there any point in going for things like programming, which may be partially taken over by automatic program generating software/AI.There are disagreements, as to if the other skills and work, involved in real life programming work, especially within electronics embedded stuff. Will keep such people in employment.I think, there is a huge amount of, extra software which could be written, if cheaper options were available, to get programming work done. So, to an extent, the market could well, still cry out for experienced programming people, such as software engineers.I think electronic engineering, is too fiddly in some aspects, to be rapidly taken over by ChatGPT. E.g. Who sits by a non-working, new prototype and debugs and troubleshoots it, when it doesn't work as expected.Also some areas, are too ill defined, such as RF.But straight forward web development work, could in theory, be partially replaced by automatic programming agents, where a normal (non-web development) worker, specifies what the business wants, then ChatGPT etc, goes ahead and implements it.But it would still need testing and maintenance, and some aspects are best done by experienced web people, who know what they are doing. So it's not clear, what is going to happen, in the future.But very complicated web development, would still probably need real web developers. E.g. Banking websites.Maybe it will end up like wordprocessors. Where something like 2 to 5 typists, could be replaced, by one wordprocessing operator. Or even the manager, types the thing themselves, using a PC, and laser prints it. But there are still many other office staff, just their precise functions are different, these days.E.g. Instead of typewriting, or operating a wordprocessor, they might answer many emails, answer the phone, make tea/coffee, etc etc.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 03:52:59 am
content: As a typical Finn, the one thing I actually do wonder about ChatGPT, is what it thinks ofme.Not enough to create an account, though.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 04:07:21 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 18, 2023, 03:52:59 amLater in the conversation, ChatGPT prompt:QuoteQuote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 04:49:26 am
content: You can of course, get considerably more detailed information of specific users. N.B. It sometimes gets some details wrong though. Let's try:ChatGPT continuing prompt:QuoteQuoteLet's now ask, very specific detailed question(s).ChatGPT continuing prompt:QuoteQuoteChatGPT prompt:QuoteQuoteChatGPT prompt:QuoteQuote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 05:02:00 am
content: I thought I'd try some questions with a negative/false answer, to make sure it is not just making this stuff up.ChatGPT prompt:QuoteQuoteChatGPT prompt:QuoteQuote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 05:06:54 am
content: ChatGPT prompt:QuoteQuote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 05:17:59 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 18, 2023, 03:52:59 amNow let's ask it a question, which would need intelligence of some sort or other, to answer. Let's get it thinking...QuoteQuote

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 07:25:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 09:16:08 pmGood call, thank you.Populated it with some of my old threads.Gee, 50% of all the topics there are mine.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 07:54:16 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 18, 2023, 04:07:21 amNo, no, no. You just asked it about my contributions or something like that. That's not it. I'm worried about what it thinks of me, literally.Just like about the elephant, you see.Quote from: karpouzi9 on March 18, 2023, 06:18:31 amNope. Even adding myStackOverflowandStackExchangepost counts I get nowhere near those numbers. And I joined in 2018, not in 2010.Besides, I don't do PICs, MSP430s, only have one STM32F1Discovery in an unopened blister, and I get PTSD from Perl. I've also written quite a bit of Fortran code. My field at Uni was computational materials physics, and I've worked with HPC and clusters a lot; dunno if you consider that "mainframes", though. No experience on zSeries. I also have a few different SBCs (Odroid HC1, Odroid C1+, La Frite, Orange Pi Zero, some old RasPi, and probably a couple I forget), and currently playing with a Mikrotik RBM33G routerboard with a 128GiB PCIe SSD and a Huawei ME909s-120 4G/LTE modem.So, it got about the same right as you'd expect from a cold-reading fortune teller.The pseudonym is a multipun of the dad joke kind, funny to me but probably elicits eyerolls and groans in others. You know, average named animal type of thing. I use it to remind myself that all responses I get are due to my output under this pseudonym, and are not about my person or personality per se. One can change how they communicate and interact, but not their person, so it makes a big difference to me.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 08:03:43 am
content: Remember that even simple numbers which areextremelysimple to obtain correctly, and double-check, are usually made-up by ChatGPT. It truly is just a language model with zero understanding. Probably phrases "17000 posts" and "year 2010" were present in the learning dataset in some similar context.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 08:07:54 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 18, 2023, 07:54:16 amQuite obviously: ChatGPT thinks that your accent is awkward and your nose looks like a potato. Better lock yourself up in your apartment and take somekalsarikännit.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 08:24:53 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 18, 2023, 03:30:09 amAh.Someone has asked chatgpt to produce an essay in the style of Ernest Hemingway.Don't the forum rules require that to be marked as chatgpt? If not, why not?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 08:29:06 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on March 18, 2023, 08:07:54 amDammit, exactly what I feared. Sigh. A case of beer andnistipatafor dinner it is. :'(

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 10:06:00 am
content: Why nobody asked ChatGPT about opinion on this topic?

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 11:07:07 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 18, 2023, 03:30:09 amI'm not sure what all these new jobs are going to be. Maybe Douglas Adams was prescient when he foretold the shoe economy. Which neatly brings me to the origins of the word sabotage. from Wikipedia"The English word derives from the French word saboter, meaning to "bungle, botch, wreck or sabotage"; it was originally used to refer to labour disputes, in which workers wearing wooden shoes called sabots interrupted production through different means."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SabotageBetter make sure the Golgafrincham Ark Fleet Ship B is a big one. I have a feeling a lot of these new jobs will qualify for it. And that's actually not a good thing regardless of the inclusion of the telephone sanitizers. You can only have so many tattoo parlors sited nearby laser tattoo removal studios and nail saloons.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 02:09:03 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on March 18, 2023, 10:06:00 amThis was done by me, on the earlier thread, that proceeded this one.Link here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/should-the-eevblog-forum-go-private-to-prevent-the-robot-uprising/msg4757360/#msg4757360It needed some ingenuity, to get it to answer the question, though.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 02:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 18, 2023, 11:07:07 amI think, for people starting out in life, and deciding what to do at university, or whatever they intend. It is not clear, how this ChatGPT and hence possible upcoming AI revolution, is going to pan out.At the moment, they (ChatGPT etc) are (probably) at a level, that it will be able to help some people do their normal work (e.g. programmers and web developers), easier, better and maybe sometimes a bit quicker.But, depending on how powerful this technology is going to be able to become, also how long it takes, how much it costs, and possibly government hindrance, help or ambivalence.I suppose one modern dayanalogyof sorts. Is theserobotautomated self-service, tills that have somewhat increasingly appeared in places such as large supermarkets, round the world.The human jobs, of being a supermarket checkout person, is still going strong.A number of people, don't really like these new automated self-service things.They are sort of quick and helpful, if you are only buying a relatively small number of things. But with a huge shopping load, they can be more of a pain in the neck.Also, people can miss the personal touch. I've heard, that sadly with some older people, they lose the human interactions and brief conversations, that they use to get, with a human supermarket checkout person.So, maybe that shop example, shows that things won't necessarily massively change, overnight. As other forces, can come into play.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 02:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 17, 2023, 09:15:34 pmWould Sputnik count (October 4th, 1957)? It sure changed math and science teaching in the lower grade levels. I believe I was in the 6th grade when things got serious.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 03:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 18, 2023, 08:24:53 amIf you mean that post, no, it was me not any chat bot, that made that post.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 03:36:16 pm
content: Perhaps the quality of the AI response will be somehow related to the quality of the request. If that is true, highly skilled people will be required to interface with the AI. If you want replies headed in a particular direction (eg FreeRTOS versus simple interrupt driven), you may need to nudge the AI in a direction. But first you need to know that there is a direction and the benefits of heading in that direction. Random walk isn't a good strategy."Garbage In, Garbage Out" will be a prevalent theme, IMO.The train is leaving the station. It's time to get on board. Visit as many tutorial sites as possible, watch videos, buy books related to the aspect of ML that you prefer, make sure your PC or laptop graphics card has a dumpster full of CUDA units and get with the program. A quick review of Linear Algebra wouldn't hurt. When you think you have it down, explain how 'Back Propagation' works, in sufficient detail to be programmed in Fortran (Yes, Fortran is still a thing. Ask NVIDIA). Remember, we're working in N dimensional space for VERY large values of N. And we don't have infinite time for training.http://neuralnetworksanddeeplearning.com/chap2.htmlhttps://heartbeat.comet.ml/deep-learning-has-a-size-problem-ea601304cd8If you're wondering why Fortran is still a thing, it's because the language definition includes parallel processing. That's helpful when you have multiple thousands of CUDA cores crunching on a matrix problem.https://wvuhpc.github.io/Modern-Fortran/20-Parallel-Programming/index.html

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 04:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 18, 2023, 03:36:16 pmI've been looking at GPT 4's enhancements. One flaw in previous versions was the ability to trick it into thinking it was wrong when it was, in fact, right. One example was (and I do not remember the exact way it went) was a simple math problem. Somebody asked it what was 2 + 5, and it replied "7". Then the person insisted his wife said the right answer was "8", and ChatGPT revised it's answer to "8" apologizing for the error.Now it won't do that. It will tell you that there are rules and logic to math, and the rules say that the answer is "7".As far as studying up on this technology, it's all I've been into for a while now. Whether you like it or not, the world is going to change because of this technology, and there is no turning back. So you really have no choice but to learn, understand, and master it or get left behind.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 07:18:08 pm
content: It's pretty easy to get started with the TensorFlow/Keras or PyTorch libraries for Python. Both include datasets for the "Hello World" project of MNIST Digit Recognition. I first started working with this problem using the MATLAB toolboxes.As I posted a couple of weeks ago, ChatGPT produced code for both libraries that actually worked. I suspect it just scraped it up somewhere and regurgitated it but, it worked!Python solutions, even with CUDA cores, are not a particularly fast way of training. But it works!Here's a PyTorch solution with explanation, I haven't used this version but it seems rigorous enough. Other pages on the site provide more detail.https://towardsdatascience.com/mnist-handwritten-digits-classification-using-a-convolutional-neural-network-cnn-af5fafbc35e9I didn't do a line count on the above solution but I'm confident that the MATLAB 71 line solution is a LOT shorter (and faster):Code:%Program to recognize digits using Deep CNN% Console commands to download dataset% >> dataFolder = fullfile(toolboxdir('nnet'),'nndemos','nndatasets','DigitDataset');% >> imds = imageDatastore(dataFolder, ...% 'IncludeSubfolders',true,'LabelSource','foldernames');%% Dataset is extracted to:% C:\Program Files\MATLAB\R2022b\toolbox\nnet\nndemos\nndatasets\DigitDatasettic % start the clock%Giving path of dataset folder - I moved it to somewhere a lot more convenientdigitDatasetPath='c:/Digits';%Reading Digit Images from image Database Folderdigitimages=imageDatastore(digitDatasetPath,'IncludeSubfolders',true,'LabelSource','foldernames');%Distributing images in the set of Training and TestingnumTrainFiles=750; %numTrainFiles=-.75 (75%)[TrainImages,TestImages]=splitEachLabel(digitimages,numTrainFiles,'randomize');layers=[imageInputLayer([28,28,1],'Name','Input')convolution2dLayer(3,8,'Padding','same','Name','Conv_1')batchNormalizationLayer('Name','BN_1')reluLayer('Name','Relu_1')maxPooling2dLayer(2,'Stride',2,'Name','MaxPool_1')convolution2dLayer(3,16,'Padding','same','Name','Conv_2')batchNormalizationLayer('Name','BN_2')reluLayer('Name','Relu_2')maxPooling2dLayer(2,'Stride',2,'Name','MaxPool_2')convolution2dLayer(3,32,'Padding','same','Name','Conv_3')batchNormalizationLayer('Name','BN_3')reluLayer('Name','Relu_3')maxPooling2dLayer(2,'Stride',2,'Name','MaxPool_3')convolution2dLayer(3,64,'Padding','same','Name','Conv_4')batchNormalizationLayer('Name','BN_4')reluLayer('Name','Relu_4')fullyConnectedLayer(10,'Name','FullyConnected')softmaxLayer('Name','SoftMax')classificationLayer('Name','OutputClassification')];lgraph = layerGraph(layers);plot(lgraph); %Plotting Network Structure%------ Training Options ------options = trainingOptions('sgdm', ...'Shuffle','every-epoch', ...'ExecutionEnvironment','CPU', ... % or AUTO, GPU or CPU'InitialLearnRate',0.01, ...'MaxEpochs',4, ...'ValidationData',TestImages, ...'ValidationFrequency', ...30, ...'Verbose',false, ...'Plots','training-progress');net = trainNetwork(TrainImages,layers,options); %Network Training% analyzeNetwork(net)YPred = classify(net,TestImages); %Recognizing digitsYValidation = TestImages.Labels; %Getting labels'accuracy = sum(YPred == YValidation)/numel(YValidation); %finding accuracyfprintf('Accuracy: %g%%\n',100*accuracy)toc99.72% accuracy isn't too bad when you look at the really bad penmanship. See top right of Training.png

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 11:31:56 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 18, 2023, 03:08:47 pmProve itEither a "yes" or "no" answer would have been interesting, in different ways.The PoMo Lit Crit mob would have fun deconstructing the questionhttp://www.fudco.com/chip/deconstr.htmlFun reading, with the JFK point being relevant.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 01:16:32 am
content: Fairly strongly in favour of banning ChatGPT, and I agree too.But there's a problem : Stack overflow have banned it.Code:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_hv3P2fyBo&t=0sAnd nobody would want to be like stack overflow, would they ?Code:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7v0yvdkIHgThere was a great comment :"no wonder they banned chatgpt, because chatgpt actually tries to answer your questions instead of making fun of you, which makes them look bad."(code tags used to stop the forum swamping the text with monster youtube previews)

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 01:50:19 am
content: Quote from: artag on March 19, 2023, 01:16:32 amTHIS! Can we fix this first, please?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 07:00:11 am
content: It's a feature, not a bug. Dave wants it, at any rate.It's the EEVblog forumIf you want to avoid it, replacewww.youtube.comwithyoutu.bein your links.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 08:55:41 am
content: Instead ofhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5N24xvDEkMfor example, usehttps://youtu.be/Y5N24xvDEkM. (This one links to BigClive's Chinese lamp crimper tool video.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 09:19:03 am
content: Quote from: artag on March 19, 2023, 01:16:32 amMiaow!Accurate.Shows good tasteQuite right.QuoteThe questions on stackoverflow are boring and only suitable when you need to do something without understanding the subtleties. Useful for "which button to I press to floggle the squirdle?", but not much more.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 10:09:45 am
content: The questions are fine, but the moderation policy off not permitting any worthwhile discussion it what destroys it for me.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 10:13:48 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 19, 2023, 08:55:41 amThanks! I bothered to follow that link, whereas I skipped the talking head ones, and it was a worthwhile 10 mins

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 10:58:18 am
content: Quote from: artag on March 19, 2023, 10:09:45 amIt can be difficult to separate cause from effect, and probably not profitable to try too hard.There is onetechnicalchoice that "destroys" many forums, but not this one. Interesting subtleconversationsalways have a context for the to-and-fro points. Only allowing one level of context in a reply actively prevents such conversations.

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 01:28:26 pm
content: Well lets ask it:Woofy:Should ChatGPT bots be banned from the EEVblog Forum?ChatGPT:As an AI language model, I do not have an opinion or stance on whether ChatGPT bots should be banned from the EEVblog Forum.However, it is important to consider the impact of such bots on the forum's comm :)unity and the rules and policies set by the forum administrators. If the use of ChatGPT bots violates any of the forum's rules or policies, then it may be appropriate for the administrators to ban them.Additionally, it may be helpful to assess the benefits and drawbacks of using ChatGPT bots in the forum context, such as whether they enhance the user experience or hinder meaningful conversations. Ultimately, the decision to ban or allow ChatGPT bots should be based on a thoughtful consideration of these factors and the forum's community and goals.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 01:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on March 17, 2023, 03:02:03 pmI also just wanted to suggest to have soem discussion about possible regulations. And agree with that of the victim mindset.The whole discussin here reminds me to that one in Rivendell to decide what to do with the Ring, or what purpose it might be useful for.My take:1. Ban AI with human like interaction and communication forms.This can only help to replace humans in their human form, and disrupt society while not solving any actual problems.2. Ban training AI on human communication. This wil lead mostly to centralised censorship and surveillance concentrated in the hands of very few people.3.Ban having different AI system with different sensing qualities to connect themselves. Actively prohibit it by design. (The one which can see can not talk, the one which can listen can not see et.)Te priviledge of being able to see speak and listen and understand in a human like way should be restricted to humans. To help to protect from an overly speedy AI evolution.For those who say banning is never a solution:There is no industry where you can get away without any kind of regulation and safety measures. Pharmatic industry is a good example to that. So we could than also suggest the pharma industry, nuclear industry, the media, etc. to not to have any restrictions or regulations at all. This is not the way society works, not even in a small town.As for China and the concurrence: If a strong general AI arises it will not matter where it comes from.But until that: The uncontrolled messing around in society with AI will destroy it, I don't see now any serious counterargumnts, only wishful thinking. So the short term tech gains will be massively counterbalanced by the social collapse.Edit:So to make it clear these 4 points (see later for the 4.) will not ban AI completely.We might be able to have an AI which designs for example electric circuits in the future (to be able to get rid of most of the engineersBut that AI will not be able to "understand" or write a joke, or be able to write code.And the one which can write a code, would not be able to understand other human stuff.So this is only a protection of the human domain.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 02:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: MT on March 17, 2023, 05:30:16 pmSo how do you define consciousness and self awareness in general and what is tha way to test it?And the rest: You also confuse the actual state of things with the possible outcomes in the very near future. No one suggested here that the current AI can replace completely any humans or have a btter general understanding.Just like 5 years ago very few people thought that this level of AI would become real so fast.Quote from: wilfred on March 18, 2023, 11:07:07 amI also never see any actual well defined job predictions for these new jobs.Its only: "Well, there will be something..."And there is a great misunderstanding in this argument with industrial revolutions before:There the tooling the technologies and production tech. were advancing while here the very basic humancapabilities are going to be substituted, also with non human control over them.Quote from: xrunner on March 18, 2023, 04:10:24 pmYou will not be able to outcompete this thing, as all these modells also will change really fast. (And they are orienting themself of the very quality of yours with which you would try to understand them with possibly even phisically more neurons in the future) When you think you learned something, it can be thing of the past in the next version or in another neural network.It is black box even for it's designers. It is basically a chain reaction in the computer industry.So I am actually really happy that Mores prediction is at its limits at least on the HW side.And it wil be really hard to bring 99,99 procent of the population to even understand the current level of AI. So if the smartest people think that they can get away without the rest of the society than... well than they are maybe not that smart at allAnd as for the there is no turning back: That was Sarumans argument as wellOh so a fourth of extra extra restriction in the posts above:Phisically limit the used neurons/transistors, as to not to let it get to a human level on the HW side.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 03:21:31 pm
content: Dave: This topic is so much hidden now, that I think it actively prevents a lot of....humans to chime in.So there might be people who are not generally AI freaks to actively look for an AI section but still would read throught it, which I think is a good thing. I certainly would not have actively look for it in the AI section.(As actually the whole issue is not funny thing to think about.)

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 03:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 19, 2023, 02:12:01 pmThe history books, tend to show, that such big restrictions, don't necessarily work in practice.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 08:27:18 pm
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 19, 2023, 01:37:14 pmState actors (countries) will blow past any treaties or agreements if doing so will provide even a modest advantage/benefit. They just classify the projects and screen the workers.Individual companies will still pursue prohibited technologies at their 'skunk works' factories. Universities are still going to disclose everything they know about technology (perhaps with licensing involved) and continue to push the limits. What else are math majors going to do?The cat is out of the bag and ripping through the house. The time to prevent this kind of thing was back around 1950 when computers first became a thing.There is so much tutorial information on the Internet that almost anybody can get involved with Machine Learning. It isn't really necessary to understand the nits of the library code. Just cut and paste applications and you are in the AI group. Tweak a few hyperparameters and you're off to the races.It's an exciting time!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 08:45:04 pm
content: In the attached project, the Arduino is simply an output of facial recognition done on a PC with a webcam. Nevertheless, facial recognition is now 'pedestrian', everybody can do it.https://www.instructables.com/Face-Recognition-and-Identification-Arduino-Face-I/This type of facial recognition has been used for PC login for several years so it's nothing new. The exciting bit is that it is now at the hobby level.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 04:59:43 am
content: If you think your ex can hold a grudge, just wait until a malicious AI has a perfect and permanent facial and identity profile database on anyone who has ever said anything negative about AI bots.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 05:55:17 am
content: Quote from: John B on March 20, 2023, 04:59:43 amThat will come as soon as they learn it to have emotions and feelingsIt will be hateful once a month.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 11:02:41 am
content: The AI can be your protector too!

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 01:05:26 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 19, 2023, 08:27:18 pmI did not propose to forbid machine learning.But you mix up two different thing: The fact that there are ways to go around regulation does not mean that regulations don't work at all, and we don't have them in any industry.If it would work like this there would be no things forbidden, and no regulation for anything.EVERY industry is full of regulations. Except the AI industry at the moment.Did you check what kind of tests for how long time must be done until a medicine can be sold? It takes 15-20 years, and for good reasons.And I think when the realisation will reach more and more citizens, there will be some regulation, but driven by the industry itself. And not on a democratic base, because those people who have some technical understanding instead leave the stuff for the very much apperciated politicians and industry lobbysts. And it will be made by politicians like the mentioned PM.If this is the way how democratic societies are working, well, than they will be no democracies for a long time. (Just saw a report about a british small company which will do AI filtering for social media- So it heads clearly in direction AI deciding soon what people are allowed to say without much human oversight, because humans will be expensive.)For some people again: NO WE ARE NOT THERE YET. But heading there without much resistance. And there are no debates about this in the society.So no regulation never worked ever for any technology, and even during the mentioned industrial revolutions were followed by a massive regulatory wave when people realized what goes wrong.We won't have that much time for this revolution.

author: Junaid_raza
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 10:02:33 pm
content: We cannot deny that ChatGPT will replace humans since we will continue to rely on it and ask for assistance with everything, including personal issues.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 10:23:33 pm
content: If it replaces humans, whoever is it going to give assistance to?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 01:17:29 am
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 20, 2023, 01:05:26 pmIt is absolutelyguaranteedthat AI will be either self or government regulated on various topics.AI will never EVER to be allowed to tell the truth on certain topics, like politics, finance, religion, and various social issues. Much of society being functionalrelieson lies, and the absense of truth, or the illusion of truth.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 02:04:34 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 20, 2023, 10:23:33 pmIt will be a therapist for the Bing AI, that thing is/was crazy. (It may have undergone shock therapy in the meantime)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 04:01:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2023, 01:17:29 amYep.The question of that making society "functional" is debatable.But lies certainly have the well known potential of avoiding/limiting conflict, and hard conflicts could get us back to wild animals.The #1 reason we use lies is to avoid conflict. Absolutely no doubt about that.Other living species use "lies" to the same end as well.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 09:35:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2023, 01:17:29 am"...thetruth..." ?! That sounds like something that should be written in green ink.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 02:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 21, 2023, 04:01:17 amI don't think that this applies generally. I actually think, the more lies you have in a socity the less it will work, or the less people will be happy in it. As it is in private life as well.In totalitarian systems, every communication is actually ment to be for the greater good of people, but the opposite effect is reached.So I think the regulation must not be what it can or can not say, as it will be impossible to implement properly even with the best intention. Yes I belive all censorship in the world was created with some good intention.So therefore it should not interfere in general human communication at all, that also to avoid a strong general AI.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2023, 02:40:24 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 20, 2023, 05:55:17 amEmotions(full songhttps://youtu.be/YnnyBFz7iUw)

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2023, 09:48:17 am
content: The most worrying thing I've found about ChatGPT is that its will confidently answer any question even when that answer is close to pure fiction.Yesterday I asked it to provide an XOR routine for the ESP32 ULP FSM. The results were absolute rubbish. It apologized profusely when I pointed out its errors but then either rephrased the error or generated new ones. It defied all attempts to guide it, clearly having no understanding of the ULP instruction set.It is the confidence that it produces these responses that worries me.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2023, 07:56:20 pm
content: This is of course worrying.Now, anyone trusting the output of this thing is going to get what they deserve.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2023, 08:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 22, 2023, 07:56:20 pmThe only worrying thing is that some people will trust a statistical parrot's output.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2023, 09:04:52 pm
content: Quote from: John B on March 20, 2023, 04:59:43 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roko%27s_basilisk

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2023, 04:57:13 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on March 20, 2023, 05:55:17 amHAL2000, anyone?Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.Dave Bowman: What's the problem?HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.HAL: I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2023, 05:07:46 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 22, 2023, 08:22:44 pmThat's not the only worrying thing.As I said, those who trust its output will get what they deserve. That, I think we agree on.The worrying part is any use of it that would have an impact on people, whatever it is, and over which they would have no control.In others words, if anyone or any organization uses its ouput for deciding something that will impact you (while you didn't ask for it), THAT is worrying.And that's certain to happen. It's even what triggers all the investment. Companies and countries are not investing billions in this just to get people a cool toy and make them have a happier life. That's not how it works.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2023, 06:27:15 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 23, 2023, 05:07:46 amThose who trust others to behave rationally and/or responsibly also deserve to get what they deserve.I wish we could have more of that, and have it sooner than later.Ireallyhate the smug "intellectuals" who think that everybody can be an idiot and it won't affect them because of some "individual freedom and consequences" and shit.This is exactly how the 21st century happened as we know it today.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2023, 08:41:31 am
content: FYI:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/baidu-is-trawling-the-eevblog-forum/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2023, 10:06:50 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 23, 2023, 05:07:46 amTo split hairs, strictly speaking I don't care if someone is stupid enough to believe a statistical parrot's ouput. I do care if they go on to hurt innocent bystanders.QuoteAgreed. Except that your statement is behind the timesUnfortunately that problem isn't limited to statistical parrots. Any impenetrable and/or proprietary algorithm causes the same problems. "Because the (infallible) computer says so" is a real problem. comp.risks has been noting cases for years, decades.Really bad examples include "expert systems" that help judges decide whether to incarcerate people on bail and/or for how long after conviction. Those are based on historicalevidenceexperience, and hence hit minorities harder.

author: karpouzi9
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2023, 06:14:05 pm
content: What I do know is that exactly zero publicly traded corporations want to make a self-actualized AI lifeform with (suppress your laughter) agency and freedom.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 12:54:57 pm
content: So I post it here as well. Last wake up call.https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/29/elon-musk-joins-call-for-pause-in-creation-of-giant-ai-digital-mindsYou can sign the petition here as well:https://futureoflife.org/open-letter/pause-giant-ai-experiments/Worth to read the description!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 01:09:32 pm
content: Well you're double-posting this, so again I'll say the people that agree with this will be left behind in this tech race and other companies/countries will leap ahead. Stupid idea!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 02:37:21 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 23, 2023, 05:07:46 amThe very large companies may well make business decisions with AI - lending institutions come to mind. But these companies were already using expert systems for decision making.What will happen is that customers will get angry and boycott the companies using AI in an uncomfortable manner and there will be a boom for customer friendly companies. It is, and always will be, consumer demand that drives the economy. If everybody gets together and boycotts companies using AI recklessly, there will be a paradigm shift.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 04:34:11 pm
content: QuoteWon't happen. Hasn't happened with many, many things where the few who elect to make that choice are vastly outnumbered by those that don't know, don't give a damn, embrace the alternative, etc.The only possible way it could happen is for it to be 'cancelled' and, frankly, we don't have the determination and bloody mindedness to make it a woke issue.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 09:10:07 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 29, 2023, 04:34:11 pmSo you're basically saying that nowadays, the only way people can fight efficiently against something that they don't want is to cancel it with the woke approach?Woke approach which is almost entirely backed and encouraged by big tech companies and most western governments?In other words, is democracy dead? (Spoiler alert: yes for the most part.)But really I would suggest thinking about it for a bit.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 11:01:25 am
content: The woke part was in jest (referencing recent threads), but the first para I think is appropriate.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 07:59:50 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on March 30, 2023, 11:01:25 amI don't think it was that far off though.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 10:14:04 am
content: Another ChatGPT bot banned.This one is from India.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2023, 11:34:11 am
content: I plugged '8^x+2^x=130, solve for x' into chatGPT as a test, after 1 minute it gave 3 methods to find a solution and a rough answer of 2.42. I asked it to use one of the other methods, which it said would be more accurate, and it has told me that using the bisection method we get 2.321928094It then said that 8^2.321928094+2^2.321928094=128.000003218 + 1.999996782=130.000000The first thing that jumped out at me is that 2^2.321928094 is closer to 5, and cannot be less than 2. I told ChatGPT this, and it then told me that the sum it gave me actually resolved out to 133 (also incorrect) and so the original equation was what was wrong and should have been 8^x+2^x=133. Hilarious, you couldn't make it up.It turns out that when calculated properly:8^2.321928094=124.999999769347734127289882760682^2.321928094=4.9999999969246364531389595814579and their sum is 129.99999976627237058042884234214So the answer it gave me, 2.321928094, was actually fairly accurate, but it completely failed when explaining why, then doubled down on its ignorance and incorrect maths and then decided that the wrong answer it gave must have been right and this meant the original question must have been wrong...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 10:01:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2023, 10:14:04 amI just reported another one in a seemingly innocuous thread.One aspect of the bans becoming so public is that the AI will learn what works and what doesn't - posters that get banned might be fed back and the engine will adapt itself, creating more elaborste and harder to spot posts. Perhaps deleting the post entirely would be a solution.I wonder if this will eventually create an entire new industry of "antiAI" or "firewall" software (such as the old antivirus industry) to alleviate the inordinate amount of extra work for the sysops to remove more and more accounts. The reliance on the community is great, but it only works for the larger active ones and it might not be 100% accurate.Interesting times ahead.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 12:54:37 pm
content: QuoteEventually, but not this iteration - it doesn't learn, only regurgitates from before 2021.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on April 02, 2023, 12:54:37 pmSure, but the companies behind it WILL make the necessary changes in order to make it less obvious to detect. That's for sure. Their whole business would otherwise be at stake. So you can expect changes much sooner than you think.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:18:14 pm
content: GPT4 is able to improve and learn using some techniques. Results are moving very fast, some within the last 72 hours. This stuff is moving!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 10:25:43 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 02, 2023, 08:42:07 pmThe moment a financial/monetary incentive comes into the equation, there'll be an army of people improving the system to turn sentences into credible marketing pieces that will eventually become very effective - at least for the layman. A forum review that convinces people about the advantages of a product, a 100% fabricated product review without the sunken cost of actually sending the product to someone, entire discussions with credible points and counterpoints that lead to a sale and so on...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 02:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: karpouzi9 on April 02, 2023, 09:06:19 amDon't worry, it forgets things.It told me it was something about "privacy".

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2023, 10:04:37 pm
content: I'd say stop using this crap, but who cares.