Other battery chemistries, what happened to them ?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Adrian_Taylor333
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2025, 05:13:03 pm
content: Leaving aside weekly MSM bullshit about yet another battery that is to change the world, where were some candidates that MSM has been constantly pounding as sure thing:* solid-state Li-Ion. Even Sandy Munro has had quite a few interviews and visits to QuantumScape (IIRC) and other players that were waving around with demo cells and prototypes. That was IIRC 5 years ago.That QuantumScape guy was sayinz that only thing left was so to solve some small teething issues WRT mass production and that they were practically prepared for limited small production IIRC - I assume fro prototypes and demonstration cells.* Na-Ion. Replacing Li with Na was supposed to be a big deal, since Na is abundant and trivial to procure from sea water. Na-Ion cell was supposed be not only dirt cheap, but also practically eternal, indestructible and totally firesafe, due to Na being far less volatile. What we got ( after may years) are Na-Ion cells that cost the same, but perform WORSE than Li-Ions or LFP. It's har do believe, but they have WORSE lifetime any Li-Ion chemistry. WTF ?* LMFP. Addition of Mangan was supposed to be trivial change that raises the nominal LFP cell voltage from 3.2 to 3.6V and thus brings energy density closer to Li-Ion without the drawbacks (price, fire hazard). Since change was trivial, I expected o see LMFP to flood the market. And yet no LFP cell s to be seen.* Li/Na-Cl etc. having similarly reactive element at the other side was supposed to more than double energy density or more. Yes, there are volatility problems, so I wasn't expeccted to see it in mass production, but by now I was hoping to see at least some demonstration products for future special applications etc.What happened to all of those ?If one is thinking about going into major investment for solar batteries etc. would it make sens to wait for a year three to see how gets resolved or is that unlikely ?

author: geralds
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2025, 05:21:59 pm
content: Li-S is another, interesting battery technology, in particular for BESS.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2025, 08:06:45 pm
content: It is unlikely that something better, well tested and reliable enough will be available within a couple years for mass consumption.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2025, 08:31:57 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 18, 2025, 08:06:45 pmNa-ion and solid state lithium is already in production, you just can't buy it.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2025, 08:33:17 pm
content: I'm turning around your question: what happened with LFP that it became so cheap and well established that it is now so hard for other chemistries to prove themselves? Let's not forget that it took Lithium a Nobel and some more decades of research and a huge investment boost(Asianometry: How Did China's LFP Batteries Get So Cheap?)to get where it is now.As for Natrium its going forward it seems:https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/25/08/01/2120225/peak-energy-ships-americas-first-grid-scale-sodium-ion-batteryIf its not just an investment black hole I would like to know how this one performs.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2025, 09:28:30 pm
content: https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-10-sodium-ion-battery-165059349.htmlSodium Ion is alive and well, CATL is producing them.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2025, 10:49:54 pm
content: Na-Ion cells are available commercially. It's a first generation battery chemistry so expecting it to be as good as Li-Ion (LFP is also a Li-Ion battery chemistry) is misguided imo. The cells seem to have similar capacity to LFP cells and can apparently be discharged all the way to 0V without damage which is a novel feature compared to lithium ion cells.There is at least one production EV with a sodium-ion battery as an option:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JMEV_EV3QuoteTesla are also apparently looking into aluminium-ion, though Tesla have been quite far behind other battery manufacturers and still primarily depend upon Panasonic, CATL and LG for their vehicle batteries (even cells made in the Gigafactories are ultimately Panasonic, except for some 4680 cells)

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2025, 11:15:55 pm
content: Quote from: rteodor on August 18, 2025, 08:33:17 pmBad URL. It's

author: Adrian_Taylor333
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 07:25:13 am
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: Adrian_Taylor333
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 07:43:33 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on August 18, 2025, 09:28:30 pmCATL and many other Chinese players are owned by the state in one war or another.They often coordinate between themselves and go into production as a project with expectation of future gains.SO mere production doesn't mean anything in itself.Only thing that counts is market size and presence.Na-Ion doesn't sell, yet. At least in quantity.And both product performance and prices are awful.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 08:03:16 am
content: With enough stars in the sky ... (and pixels on the screen...) ....

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 08:33:44 am
content: Quote from: Adrian_Taylor333 on August 19, 2025, 07:25:13 amYou know the issue with regular good intentioned, politically leftist people is that they let the woke idiots control the narrative, undermining their ideals.You are not going to do that to the right, we are not like this.Stop it. You sound like a lunatic. Even if we agree on some things, this is not the way to communicate. You brought politics into a topic where there was none and went full looney immediately. Please take some time and recalibrate your communication. Not just here, probably everywhere.

author: Adrian_Taylor333
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 08:51:09 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2025, 08:33:44 amNonsense. Even if "left" and "right" weren't a lie before, they surely are now.They were defined at an age, when a computer was unthinkable, much less an AI as we know it today.Quote from: tszabooTo ignorant almost everyone may sound as a lunatic.Should this worry me or you ?Quote from: tszabooOh look, a Norvegian. Guy from a "country" group that pushes insane censorship levels allover what is called EU.How surprising.Quote from: tszabooNot even remotely true. Bruce Holt asked for a reason that LFPs are big today.I just responded with obvious trough - reason is actually political.It's a consequence of global politic "adventures".As for "looney stuff" across EU in general, here are a few samples:https://x.com/JDewarto61659/status/189706754656795895https://x.com/JDewarto61659/status/1843423901747163509Quote from: tszabooWhy ?If you don't like it, you are welcome to ignore it.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 09:08:29 am
content: Quote from: Adrian_Taylor333 on August 19, 2025, 08:51:09 amYes, we are trying to get rid of that stuff from the EU.I'm not Norwegian, check that flag again. That's where I live, not where I was born BTW.Why should you stop it? I gave you a reason. You make reasonable conservative and other right wing people bad. With bad messaging and going too far. You are like the idiot who shows up to a reasonable right wing demonstration with a nazi flag and a loudspeaker. As I said, stop it.The right answer for why LFP is cheap suddenly: Economy of scale, cheaper materials. Maybe there is a bit of subsidy and maybe there is a bit of ignoring environmental protection.

author: Adrian_Taylor333
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 09:20:00 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2025, 09:08:29 amNonsense.India had plenty of that and more.If it wasn't for China/CCP to show them the way, they'd still be just dying backkwards two-tiered colony full of feces, walking meat and ultracheap exports.Not advocating for communism ofcourse, just saying that one has to organize into a competent group, capable of controlling its own turf at least.Souvereignty is within the fundamental definition of the State.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 05:04:29 pm
content: (I'm waiting for this 'Adroan' to complain about the Koch Brothers taking over everything and manipulating government.)Complaining about BOTH of the Koch brothers gets dicey...as one of them DIED a while back (pronounced as 'Coke' brothers in the U.S.).- - Rick

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2025, 10:16:58 pm
content: Quote from: Adrian_Taylor333 on August 19, 2025, 08:51:09 amWe don't tolerate this level of political talk here, please take it somewhere else.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2025, 10:48:33 am
content: The phrase "MSM"/"mainstream media" is a moderately reliable indicator that the poster will quickly descend to semi-literate racist conspiracy theories. In this thread it expands from an anti-China rant to an anti-India rant.Quote from: Adrian_Taylor333 on August 18, 2025, 05:13:03 pmQuote from: Adrian_Taylor333 on August 19, 2025, 07:25:13 amQuote from: Adrian_Taylor333 on August 19, 2025, 09:20:00 am

author: Adrian_Taylor333
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2025, 01:13:26 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 20, 2025, 10:48:33 amKeep it on-topic, please.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2025, 03:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: Adrian_Taylor333 on August 20, 2025, 01:13:26 pmSnort. That's more than a bit rich coming from you - as evidenced by your previous posts leading tohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/other-battery-chemistries-what-happened-to-them/msg6016697/#msg6016697

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2025, 04:05:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2025, 10:16:58 pmYeah. This thread went to hell right on the first pageIt had a good start though. Maybe remove replies 8 and onwards.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2025, 04:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2025, 04:05:05 pmBest to leave history untouched, unless there is acompellingreason otherwise.We wouldn't want to emulate the practices that lead to the old Soviet joke, "students of Soviet history know how difficult it is to predict the past", would we?