Looking for a multimeter for guitar and guitar pedals. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: daveychainsaw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 04:56:23 pm
content: Hello,I'm new to the forum but I've been reading a fair few posts.I'm a guitar builder in the UK but my electronics knowledge is very basic. I know what I need to follow wiring diagrams for the things that I do regularly but that's about it and I'd learn to learn more. Maybe even ending up building a simple amp sometime down the line.I'm also looking to start building some guitar effects pedals just for fun.So I'm looking for a new DMM as an update to my old cheapo one from maplins that I've had for years.But I'm confused as to what features/range I need. I was about to spend £180 on an as new Fluke 87v but have been told it's overkill. So I'd be grateful for advice on the functions/range that I need and specific models. It's a bit daunting knowing what to get. At the moment I'm thinking of something like the Brymen BM257s which will cost me just over £100 but I'm open to any suggestions from experienced users.I really don't want a cheap, poorly made meter that won't last and I normally like to buy quality once rather than cheap twice.ThanksDave

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 05:06:58 pm
content: Welcome to the EEV blog forums.QuoteWell the Fluke 87V or the Brymen BM257s both fit the bill.QuoteNope, does the job and will last. It is a tad expensive ( though I have never seen it as cheap as £180 new anywhere reputable) for what you want but if you can afford decent tools - why not.For guitar effects or amplifer work, you probably be measuring volts and ohms mostly. You will rarely use the Amps measurement.Will definitely be worth keeping your old cheapo meter, nice to have 2nd meter to double check doubious readings and sometime you need to measure 2 things at once.If you want another alternative brand to look at - try Keysight (the new name for HP/Agilent). I have the U1232A, mostly an electricians meter but OK for most electronics stuff. The Keysights usually just cheaper than the Fluke equivilant but have more features. eg the U1232A has a built in flash light, bit gimiky but it is an extra feature.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 05:12:28 pm
content: Either the EEVBLOG BM235:https://www.eevblog.com/product/bm235-multimeter/or the Extech EX330:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extech-Instruments-EX330-12-Function-Multi-Meter/dp/B000EX0AE4/ref=sr_1_1I have both, they're both great for general purpose use (you're not going to need crazy accurate). The display on the BM235 is a bit easier to read, but the EX330 has a basic frequency counter in it, which can be handy.Also, spend the money and buy a set of these from Frankie @ 99cent hobbies to use with your meter, very handy:http://www.ebay.ca/itm/20cm-18AWG-Silicone-Leads-w-2mm-Gold-Sockets-and-28mm-Copper-Croc-Clips-Pair-/201140213658For doing guitar pedal stuff, save your money vs the Fluke, and track down a good used oscilloscope if you want to expand your toolset.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 06:32:25 pm
content: Given the bad record for quality control with the CEM made Extech EX series of meters, you are taking a chance on getting a good one. Instead I would suggest that a good budget meter is the UniTrend UT139C. For around $50 USD it offers a lot of utility and a relatively well made meter.The Brymen BM257S is also a good alternative at less than $140 USD. It is extremely well built and rated properly for higher energy circuits, like checking voltages on stage, extension cords, wall sockets, etc..

author: daveychainsaw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 06:41:17 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 04, 2016, 06:32:25 pmYes, from what i've read I'm discounting Extech. Is it worth stepping up to the Brymen 829/857/869 or is the 257 more than adequate? I was initially interested in the Uni-T models but read about poor quality and bad input protection on this forum. And I'm not particularly after a cheap model, I'll happily pay up to about £200 but obviously less if that's all i need.Thanks for the advice!

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 06:52:30 pm
content: I would dare to say that the BM257S is all the meter that the majority of electronics hobbyists need. Even if you decide you want a "better", capable, more featured, or more accurate meter, the BM257S is probably still going to be the go to meter when you need to do some troubleshooting. It is small, easily portable, capable and safe.The BM829S or BM857S or other high end meters will do other things and you will be very happy with them, but like I said, most people don't need more than the BM257S.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 07:01:52 pm
content: QuoteI do not have a bryman, I do have 3 Uni-T meters. They are ok for the price. The main issue with them is the lack of consistency with input protection, some are adequate while others are poor. The suggested UT139 is suppose to be a good one, I do not have one myself.Any of the brands Fluke, Bryman and Keysight will all be excellant for dmm.Do you need any of the additional features?Dual readingsSimulated analogue bar graphCapacitance measure (though nine of them are any good at this!)Freq measureTemperatureIf so, then yes look at the more expensive meters.From what you said about guitar/audio work, I would not have thought so.The suggestion to get a scope is a good idea.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 08:03:59 pm
content: A couple of people have said bad things about ExTech, whereas I've had no issues with mine, and the build quality is good. COnversely some people like Uni-T, and I've seen some complete crap Uni-T meters.Check out Dave's early video #91:for a $50 multimeter shootout where the EX330 comes out on top (with no apparent issues as to build quality).

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 08:07:55 pm
content: 180 GBP for an 87 V is a STEAL. For audio, you probably want the 20 kHz AC bandwidth of the Fluke, as opposed to the 440 Hz of the Brymen. The fast Peak Min/Max of the Fluke would also be super handy to detect power supply problems and measure peak audio levels.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 08:29:59 pm
content: If you want to measure audio signal, BRYMEN BM867S or BRYMEN BM869S have a decent audio bandwidth on True RMS. Also it has pretty good (and proven) high voltage specs, so you could actually use on a valve amp.... Fluke is 87 is great, but if you are carrying your multimeter around, on gigs and such, you are going to loose it, break it or it will get stolen long before it wears out...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 08:38:11 pm
content: You can also consider the Vici VC8145 bench DMM (this is my daily use DMM). The advantage of a bench DMM is that it is mains powered so you can leave it on (it won't shut itself down) and you can stack other things on top of it. IMHO handheld DMMs tend to clutter your desk and I utterly hate they run on batteries which go flat at the most inconvenient moments.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 09:44:58 pm
content: If measuring AC voltages on the whole audio range is important, then the BM829S would be a good buy. Much less expensive than 180 GBP.

author: daveychainsaw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 07:46:08 am
content: Thanks everyone for the advice. Seems like this is a pretty friendly and helpful forum!So I think I've narrowed it down to two choices.1. Get the Brymen 257 for £110 new.2. Get either the Brymen 829 for £150 new or the Fluke 85v for £180. This won't be new as would be from a 'pawn shop' but looks unused, out of the box but with all leads. Would the warranty still be valid on a secondhand meter? I've also seen unused boxed 85v for just over £200 on ebay.The 257 sounds like it will do the things that I need at the moment especially as my knowledge base is low. Whereas the second choice gives me features that I may well want as I get more experienced and gives me more things to exploreHaving never handled a Brymen, will I be satisfied with the feel of them? Is the build quality good?**EDIT** i see that the Brymen 867s is the same price as the 829. Which one of those would be the better choice?Thanks again for all the friendly help.Ooh, one other question. Can any of these meters test/power LED's?

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 10:40:01 am
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 06, 2016, 07:46:08 amGenerally, I would not worry about features you might want sometimes in the future.Gain experience by using a reasonably priced, decent quality meter and think about getting a new one only if you find out that a certain feature (that your current meter lacks) really would make your life so much easier. For some features, you might find out that a DMM isn't even the right tool, i.e. you need some specialized instrument rather than a "better" multimeter...If you actually get serious with electronics, you will want a 2nd meter sooner or later anyway – and maybe even a 3rd and 4th one eventually. So the first buy will never be a waste of money, even when you add a better meter to your collection later on.

author: omgfire
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 11:05:29 am
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 06, 2016, 07:46:08 amHave a look at `Dio' columnhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/3V should be enough for power LED, unless it is from Cree EasyWhite series, which may require over 30Vhttp://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/Products/XLamp/Arrays-Directional/XLamp-MTG-EasyWhite

author: daveychainsaw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 11:22:58 am
content: So I'm thinking of either the Brymen 829s or the 867.I've just seen that the 829s is out of stock.Are there any differences that makes one more suitable for my current needs? I had a look at the comparisons on TME and all I noticed was that the 829 measures dBm and temp whereas the 867 doesn't? Which seems odd as I thought the 867 was a higher model. But on the spreadsheet on this forum the 867 has better stats on a number of ranges. Confused as to which one is best for me now!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 11:31:22 am
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 06, 2016, 07:46:08 amIf you can get a Fluke 87V for 180 quid and the money won't leave you without food/rent then go for it.Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 06, 2016, 07:46:08 amYes, but it's hassle unless you have a Fluke office near you.I'd try it in the shop before buying. Take along a 9V battery with a battery clip and a 470 Ohm resistor soldered to one of the clip's leads. Check battery Volts, resistor Ohms and completed circuit Amps.TestbothAmp sockets - Fluke fuses are expensive!Even with a blown fuse it's still a good price though.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 11:59:59 am
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 06, 2016, 11:22:58 amAccording to Brymen theBM867has dBm measurements. Two important details that I like for audio applications are a high input bandwidth (100kHz on theBM869and theBM859) and AC+DC voltage measurements (to get a measure on noisy power supplies).

author: daveychainsaw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 12:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 06, 2016, 11:31:22 amThanks for the advice and the guidance on testing. Unfortunately I won't be able to view or test the Fluke but it looks unused. I guess I might be safer with a 'new' meter.Quote from: rsjsouza on October 06, 2016, 11:59:59 amAh, that's helpful thanks.So the 867 is the better choice then? Is there anything the 829 has that the 867 doesn't?

author: omgfire
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 12:21:34 pm
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 06, 2016, 12:07:23 pmHave a look at spreadsheethttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/Automatic DCV, ACV, Ohms selectionDual temperature measurementLoZ to drain ghost voltageNon-contact EF detection.

author: daveychainsaw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 05:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: omgfire on October 06, 2016, 12:21:34 pmApart from the temp and EF detection I have no idea what you're trying to tell me!As I said, I'm fairly inexperienced with this stuff. Are you saying that the 829 is the one I should go for. I've looked at that spreadsheet but to be honest I don't understand half of it!Dave

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 06:21:15 pm
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 06, 2016, 12:07:23 pmFor your audio applications in my opinion the BM867 is the better choice between the two.Having the money I would try to shoot for the wider bandwidth meters I mentioned before: the BM859 or the BM869. The difference between these two is the dual display.

author: eeadata
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 06:27:12 pm
content: EEVblog Brymen .. Best for bucks for now.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 06:47:31 pm
content: I'd still consider the Fluke ... another interesting feature it has is the bargraph zoom/relative mode:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4UCdc4A18k&feature=youtu.be&t=680That is very useful for trimming/nulling/calibrating analog circuits, like adjusting opamp offset voltage.

author: omgfire
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 07:19:25 pm
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 06, 2016, 05:04:40 pmNo. You can get temperature and NCV via handy dedicated tools, so BM867s would be better than BM829, unless you really need to deal with ghost voltages.Have you looked at the size of BM867 (BM829)? I don't know what you need multimeter for, but it may have a sense to start with smaller multimeter (Hioki DT4256, Brymen BM257s) than bigger (BM867, BM829, Fluke 87v).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 07:49:26 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 06, 2016, 06:47:31 pm¸My UT70C has that too for a fraction of price... I like Fluke too , and have one.. But for many years it used to be that only brand name multimeters worked well and had decent quality..It' s not like that anymore.. Brymen is easily same quality as Fluke meters twice or three times the price.. I cannot justify recommending somebody to buy something much more expensive when I know they will not get much more for their money for the purpose......And I don't recommend cheapest stuff... I think he should buy BM869S because of:1. Good TRMS bandwidth to 100kHz for quality audio measurement, together with good millivolt sensitivity.. he can actually measure signal directly from guitar pickup with good resolution..2. dB measurement , again for audio...3. Good high voltage protection, in case he has to work on valve amplifiers... That is very important with voltages approaching 650V sometimes...4. Very good precision...So that is a lot of multimeter for the money, and something very much almost designed for audio work...From Fluke something like 87-5 that you linked would be excellent choice, with same points (except dB measurements) .. Actually if he could buy it old Fluke 8060A would be perfect...But if just needs a decent multimeter, one of the lesser Brymens will do just fine, and for the price difference to a Fluke 87-5 he can get a decent used scope...That is my take on it... It all depends do you have plenty of money or not...

author: daveychainsaw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 10:06:50 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 06, 2016, 06:21:15 pmCan you explain the advantage of the higher input bandwidth? I see the fluke 87v has a bandwidth of only 20k unlike those two Brymens at 100k.Looking again at the spreadsheet it looks to my inexperienced eyes that the 869 has better specs than the 87v in most areas. If that's the case and the 87v isn't a better bet then i might go for the 869 although it is a bit more than I wanted to pay (max of £200).I know the 257 would be enough for me at the moment but I want the potential to experiment with other things. (I'll probably end up with another smaller meter as well at some point as I imagine having two meters will be very useful.Would the 257 and 869 be a good duo? And that Hioki DT4256 looks nice too. God, I can see where this is going!

author: Kuro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 01:03:55 pm
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 07, 2016, 10:06:50 amYou're catching onWatch Dave repair an old analog scope - and count the number of DMMs he's using to do it. Two DMMs isn't nearly enough, is what you start thinking after watching that video. EEVblog forum is very dangerous for one's bank account.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2016, 02:36:47 pm
content: If I were you I would go for BM869S.. If you don't destroy it by mishandling, you'll have a great instrument for many years to come..It will do all you need now and later...Worst thing is to buy one "good enough for now" and than after a month you realize you'll have to buy the BETTER one tooThat is the easiest way to end up with 52 multimeters, 13 scopes , 31 PSU etc...Just go for a 869 and you won't regret it.. If you keep it for few years, price difference will be irrelevant..

author: daveychainsaw
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 10:45:43 am
content: Right then, thanks everyone for all the comments and advice. Decision made.I've ordered a Brymen BM257.And, cough, ahem,a BM869sThe Brymens were the ones that seemed to offer great features for the price and by getting both I should have everything covered for a while. I can keep the 869 permanently set up in the workshop and use the 257 as a more portable option. And as you all kept telling me, I'll probably need more than one at some point.And given the way the £/euro is going it's not going to get any cheaper if I wait!So thank for the guidance and I'm really looking forward to learning some electronics, I'm even considering making my own PCB's for the effects pedals!Cheers Dave

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:17:45 am
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 07, 2016, 10:06:50 amSorry, I missed your question. In general audio systems have a frequency response up to 20kHz and, when measuring the flatness of your systems, the increased bandwidth will avoid having to compensate at the upper range.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 12:20:03 pm
content: Quote from: daveychainsaw on October 12, 2016, 10:45:43 amGet some books on electronics theory, dig in and good luck..!!P.S. And be carefull, electric shocks are no fun