I keep blowing LCD 1602 modules!!! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:04:59 am
content: These are the cheap 1602 LCDs with the blue background that you can get from Amazon - 1602A V2.0Any pointers to what I am potentially doing wrong or what the issue is would be gratefully received.I am running a ATMEGA328P at 3.3V on a breadboard along with some other sensors DH11, RTC etc. I am using the LCD1602A as the display for the time, temp and humidity. The 1602 display is running from 5V suppied from a 7805 and the rest of the circuit is powered by a 3V3 reg. The 1602 data lines are driven directly from the ATMEGA at 3V3. There are numerous decoupling capacitors spread around the circuitIssue: Over the course a day or so the LCD display starts to corrupt and eventually the 1602 blows going short circuit taking out the 7805 reg. This has now happened three timesEach time the LCD blowing has coincided with me prodding around with my oscilloscope looking at the output of the DH11 and RTC and after three times it is more than a coincidence. Could the Oscilliscope be introducing a spike big enough to blow the 1602?

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:12:25 am
content: Missing resistor to limit the current for the backlight?As far as I recall, something like a 10Ohm resistor is needed between 5V and the backlight supply input.

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:16:32 am
content: Resistor appears to be there (with a value other than 0R) and the back light still works after the 1602 has blown. The component on the 1602 that seems to be blowing is the chip labeled U2?

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:21:18 am
content: Are you sure the display is 5 Volt? I know there are also 3.3 Volt models...

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:23:15 am
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on January 28, 2015, 11:21:18 amFairly sure but it went through my mind and I did briefly test one at 3v3 without success

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:23:50 am
content: I think I'm using the exact type in a project of mine without any sophisticated circuits on an LPC1768 Cortex-M3 (3.3V, but 5V tolerant pins).The devices run several hours a days since a year or so...

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:27:51 am
content: U2 is the expansion driver chip with no direct connection to the interface, except the power supply. Therefore my guess is overvoltage on the 5V rail. Is the LCD the only device connected to the 5V rail?

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:39:15 am
content: Quote from: bktemp on January 28, 2015, 11:27:51 amThere is another component that is still plugged into the 5v rail that I am not currently testing - it is a RF RX module

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:41:15 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on January 28, 2015, 11:23:50 amI note you have a 10 Ohm resistor on the 5V input - to limit current?

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:44:47 am
content: It's the Anode of the Backlight. 5V input is on pin 2 without resistor.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:46:11 am
content: The RX module is probably more tolerant to overvoltages than the LCD.Try probing the 5V rail to see if it is properly regulated or maybe oscillating.

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:49:44 am
content: Quote from: ruffy91 on January 28, 2015, 11:44:47 amYes - you are correct ;-)

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:55:31 am
content: Quote from: bktemp on January 28, 2015, 11:46:11 amI have a fairly basic DSO (SDS 1102CML) and the 5v rail looks stable. There is a bit of noises when mains appliances are switched on or off. I detected a 5.5V peak but the actual could be greater. I suspected the 5V supply myself but I cannot see how this would coincide with me probing about with the DSO?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 11:59:34 am
content: Quote from: MrRadish on January 28, 2015, 11:04:59 amThat is also weird since the 7805 has short circuit protection AFAIK. Only thing these chips really don't like is a higher voltage on the output.Do you run the input of the 3.3V reg at the same inputsource as the 7805? Could it be that there is 3.3V on the 7805 output while it has no input voltage?

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 12:02:53 pm
content: Maybe you are shorting out the 7805 while probing?You could add a 5V TVS diode (SMAJ5.0A, SMBJ5.0A) to limit the 5V rail just in case something goes wrong and injects a higher voltage. This would at least protect the LCD.If the 7805 really dies and not just gets hot because of the LCD shorting out the 5V rail, the problem is somewhere in your power supply chain.

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 12:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 28, 2015, 11:59:34 amThere is alot of heat so I assume that would be a factor

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 12:08:11 pm
content: Ah well there you have it then, what is the input voltage to the 7805 and how many mA is your display consuming?Above 1 W in the 7805 you should add a coolingplate, it never should have to become hotter than around 40oC in normal roomtemperature.So a guess it is probably not the LCD blowing the 7805 it is the other way around, the 7805 is overheating it should shutdown but perhaps it is destroyed putting the inputvoltage on its output blowing the LCD chip.

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 12:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 28, 2015, 12:08:11 pmSorry - I should have specified heat when the issue occurs. normal running everything is cool to the touch. Your advice is all good though - thank you

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 12:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: bktemp on January 28, 2015, 12:02:53 pmIt is unlikely I am shorting 5V rail as the DSO leads are attached to fly leads I am then inserting into the breadboard. I will try the 5v limiting option :-D

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 12:28:11 pm
content: QuoteIt is rare that those displays take more than a few ma + the led so something quite extraordinary must have happened for it to be able to go short and take out the regulator.How did you establish that the 1602 went short?The proper procedure in powering up any circuit is to put a power limiting resistor in the rail, something like 100ohm and then down to 10ohm would work. Once you have established that the current consumption is normal, take out that resistor.

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 12:46:47 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 28, 2015, 12:28:11 pmThe module went short or very close to short - On two occasions the round black cap of U2 was blown off with a audible pop.The census seems to be that these modules are not known to just blow up so the problem is with me. The corruption on the display and the eventual failure that seems to coincide with the DSO use is a mystery but the consensus is that it may be related to power supply.Could it be a GND issue caused by a faulty connection either a wire or the breadboard itself?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 12:59:11 pm
content: QuoteHow do you know that?QuoteAnything is possible. Without you showing a connection diagram, it is hard to tell.Biggest struggle with getting any help is to figure out a way to help others help you.

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 01:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 28, 2015, 12:59:11 pmWell not for sure but IMHO S/C mainly because of the destruction and heat involved.QuoteQuote from: dannyf on January 28, 2015, 12:59:11 pmGreat help has been offered so far and I appreciate you guys have to shoot into the dark due to the lack of information in areas you feel are important. That is part of the support process and part of my learning process I guess.I am going to persevere and start a fresh with a new breadboard, wiring and without the other non LCD\ATMEGA components and see if I still have the same issue

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 01:48:48 pm
content: Blowing the cap off the IC suggests a severe overvoltage event.Is your scope ground really ground, or floating at some capacitively-coupled mains potential...?

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 01:51:40 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on January 28, 2015, 01:48:48 pmeek - What is the best way to check this (and fix it if it is a problem)?

author: katzohki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 03:37:00 pm
content: Look at this video, it includes information regarding the ground of your oscilloscope.

author: 22swg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 08:30:46 pm
content: You cannot run the LED backlight on 5v without a limiting resistor ! min 10 Ohm this should be >. 5 w

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 09:03:30 pm
content: I think a schematic or at least a decent photo is in order. Maybe the 7805 is becoming unstable (oscillating) at certain times.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 09:07:59 pm
content: Have you tried skipping the 7805 temporarily, and using a current-limiting bench supply to drive the LCD instead? What's the input to the 7805?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 09:08:42 pm
content: Quote from: MrRadish on January 28, 2015, 11:55:31 amDon't under estimate the ability of the CML range. They are good little DSO's.As has been mentioned, I'd suspect probing technique error too.Make sure you use 10x and meter for a GND loop between the probe reference lead and where you intend to reference from.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 09:40:47 pm
content: Where did you get the 7805 you are using?I have seen chinese 5v regulators (1117 series in this case) that fail with more than 10v input and no current draw, worse the failure shorts input to output!

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 09:46:07 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on January 28, 2015, 09:40:47 pmTS1117 are only rated for 7V, so nothing wrong here if they fail at >12V.Some manufacturers allow higher input voltages, but not all are equal.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 09:56:32 pm
content: For the record, I have taken Chinese-made 1117 to 20v, and encountered no problem.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 10:07:09 pm
content: Quote from: bktemp on January 28, 2015, 09:46:07 pmTrouble is they were sold and marked as AMS1117 which supposed to do up to 15v (and legit ones do).Quote from: dannyf on January 28, 2015, 09:56:32 pmYep, some are fine. But there are either fakes and/orparts in an datasheet I eventually found with the same part number but 10v max input(the ones I bought didn't mention this datasheet, just the official AMS one, the IC markings are the same, although the fakes ones are left shifted a bit).Anyway, my point is, testing the voltage regulator is a simple thing to do, set it up on your breadboard with a small load, and wind up the input voltage to see what it can handle.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 10:17:25 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on January 28, 2015, 09:03:30 pmAnd this possibility rises the question if 7805 input and output are properly decoupled with capacitors?

author: MAS3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 10:45:48 pm
content: Multiple capacitors to be sure.We really need to see some pictures and/or schematics to be able to give some advice that makes sense.Oscillation is a serious problem, unexpected to a lot of people and impossible to see using a multimeter (even though a scope was involved here).

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 10:47:10 pm
content: Quote"That's TOP secrete",

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 12:17:04 pm
content: Thank you for all the responses so far.I setup the test again with a 20x4 LCD that I received yesterday from a different source to the 1602s I have blown . I also connected the DSO earth directly to the GND on the 7805 (The input to this is 12v) instead of an arbitrary GND rail point on the breadboard. So far after 24 hours - no screen corruption and fully working LCD.As for CCT diagrams - My CCT is based onhttp://arduinoliquidcrystal.readthedocs.org/en/latest/_images/LCD_schem.pngwith the exception that the ATMEGA is running on 3v3 and the backlight is connected to 3v3 without an external resistor (a resistor appears to be in place on the board?). The LCD itself is running from 5vOne further thing is that the 1602 blowing event may have coincided with me changing the controls on the DSO (eg V/div) or even switching it on (~80% sure). Could these events have caused enough GND ripple to blow the 1602 if they were sensitive or am I just blowing smoke

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 12:32:34 pm
content: Please post a photo of your complete setup.Changing settings on your DSO does not produce any spikes. Maybe you have a bad ground connection somewhere and the smallest vibrations on the table lift the ground pin of the 7805 and therefore it increses the output voltage because of the missing ground path. But without more details of your circuit it is impossible to say.

author: 22swg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 03:21:53 pm
content: and the resistor at from +5v to +LED ?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 03:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: 22swg on January 28, 2015, 08:30:46 pmQuote from: 22swg on January 29, 2015, 03:21:53 pmThere's a 100R resistor already on the board, and the backlight has nothing to do with the IC.

author: 22swg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 03:44:46 pm
content: QuoteNone of the 1602 LCD's I have had have a resistor for the LED and I have had loads. there is a zero Ohm link sometimes . If LED array cooks , over current could take out the 7805 and supply 12v to his IC ? UCCorrectionOne of my stock has 2 x 51 Ohm provided

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 03:46:27 pm
content: Quote from: 22swg on January 29, 2015, 03:44:46 pmTake a look at the photo on the first page.If the LED fries it will typically go open circuit.

author: 22swg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 04:03:14 pm
content: Ooops Didn't open the thumb, perhaps his BB wiring is at fault.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 04:10:12 pm
content: Quote from: 22swg on January 29, 2015, 03:44:46 pmAll of the ones I've used have had a resistor installed for the LCD backlight. Just went to the lab to check on one of the ones there...yep, 6R8 (it's a 3.3v unit from mouser).

author: 22swg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 04:25:04 pm
content: I checked too 4 LCD only one (4x20 blue) had R8 and R9 as 51 Ohm and in BL circuit .

author: MrRadish
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 04:26:35 pm
content: Quote from: bktemp on January 29, 2015, 12:32:34 pmOk so lesson for me - I will photo the project and put together the CCT diagrams next time I post asking for help.I pretty much rewired the whole thing yesterday including an LCD of a different make and supplier (as mentioned above). I have added a more robust GND for my scope and I even replaced the breadboard I was using just in case that was an issue. All is working well.As I have changed a fair bit I dont think I will get to the bottom of the issue but I think I was either experiencing a GND fault that caused the 1602 to blow or it was a faulty batch of 1602s. Why the DSO seemed to be linked I do not know. I consider myself to be scope competent as an ex RF engineer but this 5v thing is new to me ;-)If I can stomach the pain I may order a few more of the 1602s and give them another go out of curiosity.Thank you all for your help.

author: RobertHolcombe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 10:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: bktemp on January 29, 2015, 12:32:34 pmHave personally had this happen too many times using breadboards, it gets expensive fast

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 11:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: MrRadish on January 28, 2015, 11:04:59 amWhat is providing power to the circuit? Power source could be shifted up/down w.r.t. earth/DSO ground.