Just ordered a Rigol DS6102 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: blueskull
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:26:00 pm
content: Just made the decision to get a reasonable powerful scope without paying $$$$$ to Agilent/Tek. The choice was an almost unused refurbished DS6102 with effective cal cert.Will be shipped to me in days. At that time, I will post a review on this item. Meanwhile, there should be another shipment coming at that time, a used signal hound 4.4GHz spectrum analyzer with 4 pieces of near field EMI probes.Thank god I am not married, so I still have money to support my expensive hobby.

author: Mark
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 06:20:41 pm
content: Can you do a review of the Signal Hound too pleaseWhich probes are you getting?

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 09:34:23 pm
content: What is the rational for getting a high bandwidth scope? What I mean is that most people on this forum say that 100 MHz is enough for them and to get the DS1054Z, and they even go as far as to say that a high bandwidth scope is useless without active probes and apparently all other sorts of gear and special circuit design steps. Even people like Dave are saying you can get by just fine with a 20 MHz analog scope. Why then do people buy high bandwidth scopes? I'm in the market for my first 'digital' scope (owned an analog prior to this) and I'm totally confused about what I should get, I have a few thousand dollars that I can spend on a scope, yet people consistently tell me the DS1054Z will satisfy all of my current and even future needs.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 11:25:04 pm
content: Quote from: nbritton on October 13, 2015, 09:34:23 pmIf you have a couple thousand set aside for a scope, I'd recommend getting something more refined than the Rigol(though it's a terrific value and a useful tool). I'm biased towards Keysight(Who, like Tek and LeCroy are throwing in a large software upgrade bundle for free at the moment), but there are other good options out there, both new and used. I have a 3024T and it's wonderfully responsive and the high quality materials on the controls give nice tactile feedback.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 04:24:56 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 13, 2015, 11:30:35 pmNot sure about low cost since the DS6000 costs some 4.5k€ before vat in Germany, but I'm pretty sure the R&S RTM series has 100 GSa/s ETS and they are in that price range.

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 05:34:56 am
content: Bought a 6104 for work (for another department) some time ago. I was quite pleased by the device. It definetly feels quality, and reacts quite fast. Its menu and settings feel so much better and faster than our 5 year old twice as expensive tek DPO4104

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 05:44:55 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 14, 2015, 04:47:33 amI knew tequitment had the 25% off select Rigol gear, but what about this coupon thing? What exactly do you mean?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 06:41:07 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 14, 2015, 04:52:07 amI maybe would not call that equivalent (no offense Rigol) and you also kind of said you don't need the bandwidth but the features/specs (ETS). There's for example the RTM2022 starting at 3.3k€ And I would also recommend to look at their bargain shop and special deals. Don't take the list price for granted either, call them and tell them your story. If you're willing to spend above 4k I'm sure they can find something for you.Why do you need so much memory btw?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 11:26:57 am
content: +1 for a review of the DS6000. I got my DS4014 from RigolNA clearance bin and couldn't be happier by its price/performance ratio.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 12:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 14, 2015, 06:13:16 amAren't they sold with just 90 days or so of warranty?Anyways, some time ago I had the chance to try a DS6104, and wasn't very impressed. It's essentially just a larger variant of the DS4000 (more bandwidth and larger screen), with large memory but no search functionality whatsoever, and scrolling through its long memory makes it pretty slow. Also, FFT on that scope is a bad joke (only a few thousand points despite all the memory, less than many 15+yr old scopes), too. The hardware felt solid (typical Rigol) but the owner mentioned that it suffers from the same annoying bugs as the DS4000 (which he also had), and because it was sold in far lower numbers than the DS4000 it has seen even less updates than the DS4000.Plus I would worry about support. Rigol doesn't seem to have fixed support cycles (don't expect many firmware updates after they stop selling it, which will be soon), and support overall is pretty much hit and miss (more 'miss' than 'hit').If its very cheap and your expectations are reasonably low then it's probably an OK-ish scope, but its well below any of the scopes from the big brands (Keysight, LeCroy, R&S, even Tek) in that scope class.At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 01:21:14 pm
content: We too have bought a DS6104. The price/performance ratio of it hasn't been beaten.Overall, I like it. With two adc's we can run two channels on 5GSa/s or 4 channels on 2.5GSa/s.Firmware is always a weak spot with Rigol. With the default fw version 00.01.04 it's impossible to use it via LAN.The scope freezes completely. Via USB it works apart from that it's not possible to download the deep memory waveform data.I reported the bugs three months ago and a couple of days ago we received a newer firmware (00.02.00.SP5) that solved the issue with the memory downloadingand the freezing of the scope when using LAN but as always it introduced a new bug.When using LAN to poll for parameters and values, the scope sometimes responds with "command error" instead of the requested value.Still, USB connection works fine.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 05:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 14, 2015, 05:01:23 pmNot sure what your point is. R&S only started selling any scopes in 2005 after they bought Hameg, and only started producing their own mid-range and high-end scopes since 2009, so obviously they sold less as Tek and HP/Agilent/Keysight who are selling scopes for many decades. And since they only more recently introduced their own bottom-of-the-barrel scope it's no surprise that they have sold less than Rigol of its DS1052E. At least in Europe R&S sells more of their scopes than Tek does these days, which isn't surprising as most of their scope offerings are pretty pale in comparison with the other big brands. Plus R&S has a long-earned reputation of producing top-notch gear, not just through their spectrum analyzers, test receivers and other RF gear but also because their broadcasting kit which is pretty much standard equipment around the world, plus all the civil and military kit they make.Just saying.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 07:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 14, 2015, 06:42:02 pmNot sure where you get the idea, R&S has a pretty large presence in the US, from the major broadcasters to the US Air Force.QuoteNot really. Only lazy people pay sticker price, everything else comes down to negotiations. All big brands generally offer pretty good incentives to those that ask for them.As to the spec sheet, well, it's just that, a list of specs. It tells you a few basic parameters a device should maintain if operated in a standardized test environment. There is much more what makes a test instrument which isn't listed on a spec sheet.QuoteAgain, I'm not sure what you're talking about, aside from the fact that there aren't many big "EU brands" (in scopes, R&S is the only one, the rest are US and Japanese companies). Import tax hasn't prevented Keysight (an American company) to become the largest vendor for test equipment in Europe, and again, it didn't prevent R&S (a German company) from selling lots of high end lab equipment, radio comms testers and broadcast equipment in the US. And I'm sure you don't want to suggest that the EU somehow "protects" Keysight, or that the US does the same for R&S.At the end of the day, Chinese brands are only cheap as long as you can live with lower performance, firmware/software faults (with no gurantee as to when the problems will be fixed, or even if they will be fixed at all!), support that's pretty basic at best, uncertain support cycles, and so on (good luck finding even something so basic as a proper calibration manual for a Rigol scope). All that isn't usually a problem for an instrument that costs say $600, but it does so for instruments that cost several grand unless you can easily write off the investment.As I said, you get what you pay for

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 02:13:06 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 14, 2015, 02:02:19 amI was able to pick up a used HP 54701A with all of the accessories, and the corresponding 1143A power supply box (also has DC offset control), for about $350 total on eBay. It's a 2.5GHz probe, 100k input resistance, 0.6pF input capacitance. It works well with my spectrum analyzer. I have also used it with my scope, but I rarely do so. Maybe look around on eBay?There is also the 85024A FET probe. There are a lot of these on eBay, but they are more expensive and I suspect many of them have the front end blown out of them. Shahriar has one and uses it in some of his videos.

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 05:46:53 am
content: Active probes tend to have distortion and spurious response that may or may not be significant depending on specific measurement requirements. As a rule, active probes are very rarely used if at all with any SA in the stuff I'm working on. Zo or similar passive divider probes can be OK.Check this:http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54701-97003.pdf?id=141370BerniceQuote from: dadler on October 15, 2015, 02:13:06 am

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 06:15:40 am
content: QuoteHarsh. But at the same time, and in your own way you do provide insight.Perhaps you could consider:* People that don't know any better - e.g. young and/or inexperienced* People who lack the confidence to negotiate* People with limited options - e.g local country pricing which tends to make the brand name stuff even more expensive.* People with limited buying power.Negotiating is a skill, it comes naturally to some, some people learn it, and some people just can't do it.

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 08:18:00 am
content: 0.6pF at 2.5Ghz has a reactance about 106 ohms... and it is not linear or predictable due to a host of factors (connection length, connection configuration, stray capacitance, inductance and....).Beyond harmonic distortion and spurious surprises from active probes, They might have non linear time delay -vs- frequency. Check this.Circuit loading and related effects due to probes are a serious consideration at these frequencies. Keep this in mind as the test set up and measurements required are being made and planned.BerniceQuote from: blueskull on October 15, 2015, 06:18:04 am

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 11:28:41 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on October 15, 2015, 06:15:40 amIt's not harsh. If you're going to spend a couple of grand on some piece of kit without doing some due dilligence then you're very likely to get an inferior (or even bad) deal. That's true with many other things in life as well, not just test instruments.QuoteWell, they could for a start just ask someone who isn't inexperienced (maybe they know someone), or failing that just ask in some appropriate forum like this (and I guess just using the forum's search function and reading through a few threads about buying similar gear might already provide all the answers).QuoteYou don't have to be a tough skilled negotiator or order the complete outfit for a new research institute, most of the time its enough justaskfor a better price. It can also be useful to mention if some other big brand does have some attractive offer you would consider, or say that you're almost convinced and you'd buy in an instant if only options <include some option you want here> were included. That often works even if it's just for a single instrument (and if not, just say "no thanks" and ask another sales droid, sales usually count towards their performance so they want to sell even if its at a lower price). Big brands have pretty good margins and a lot of flexibility, but if you don't ask then they will offer you RRP only.The only exception to this is Tek, who seems to be stuck in a parallel universum where their products aren't unattractive and their sales aren't in decline, as they're pretty inflexible regarding prices (and that even for large orders). Typical for a Danaher company.The other rule for buying expensive test gear is to get loaners from all suitable vendors and give them a spin in real-world situations before committing to buy. All big brands should have loaner scopes available they can leave with you at least for a day or two, and if you like it there's often even the chance to buy the loaner (which will usually come with most/all options) for a pretty good price if you wish to do so.Of course that leaves out the B-brands like Rigol and Siglent as they sell through retailers only (no direct sales) and don't offer loaners.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 11:41:57 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2015, 07:43:01 pmYes, but R&S is competitive in the US with another type of test gear, not oscilloscopes. In my experience with two top universities in Brazil, in my current company in US and from some friends that work in defense, R&S only has a strong presence in high end Network Analyzers, Spectrum Analyzers and some other RF wizardry test gear. I also have seen around some good RF Signal generators from them.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2015, 07:43:01 pmI know from my experience that, if you mention you work for "X" (a good customer for T&M gear), the spiel changes radically, as you are perceived as putting a good word in your company. A lone developer which has the potential to buy "one" unit (maybe two) will always have limited options when negotiating with a manufacturer.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2015, 07:43:01 pmThe price/performance ratio of Rigol's gear (especially from the NA clearance bin) is still very hard to be beaten. Sometimes eBay manages to have really good test gear at a reasonable price, but it is a more risky scenario due to the absence of warranty in most cases.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 07:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 15, 2015, 11:41:57 amWell, as I said above, R&S started making their own scopes (i.e. not Hameg) around 2009, that's just 6 years ago! It shouldn't really surprise anyone that after 6 years they have not quite the market share in scopes as others who sell scopes for over half a century.QuoteThese days that doesn't make much difference, unless you're someone in a higher management position who can actually influence procurement decisions.QuoteNot sure if that is really hard to beat:http://www.rigolna.com/clearance/"Clearance items come with a 90 day warranty. Other than warranty repair issues all sales are final. They operate within specifications, but may or may not have up to date calibration certificates."That's actually pretty poor, I guess Rigol doesn't have much trust in their devices. Plus the prices don't look that great to me, for example the DG1062z is less than $100 cheaper than a brand new one which comes with 3yrs warranty and valid calibration. The DS4022 is roughly $600 cheaper than a new one, again that's not much savings for an used scope with just 3 months warranty. Compared with what you can usually get from clearance sales of the big brands Rigol's savings are pretty abysmal.I'm also not sure it's any better than a used big brand device from ebay, as for those I can usually easily buy warranty or support for not much money. For example, you can buy some used LeCroy scope on ebay, send it in for calibration and if it passes then you can buy one, two, three or more years of manufacturer warranty for it, i.e. you get the same coverage as with a brand new one. That works as long as the scope is within the main support cycle (7 years after that model is no longer sold).Keysight offers something similar (repair agreements) for products that are within their support period, again with one, two or three years of coverage, taking care should anything fail. I recently bought an 33522B AWG on ebay, and a 3yr repair agreement for roughly 1/3rd of the price of a new one in basic config (while the one from ebay came with several options), while offering me the same security as a brand new one.The second hand big brand instrument will also very likely perform much better, will be generally well supported, and can be calibrated by any professional calibration facility to any standard (not many cal labs touch Rigol kit, not only due to the lack of appropriate documentation).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 08:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 15, 2015, 07:29:24 pmWell, we are talking about scopes on this thread, right?Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 15, 2015, 07:29:24 pmYour experience is different than mine.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 15, 2015, 07:29:24 pmPerhaps I should have clarified that in my last paragraph; repair plans are easily amortized if you use the equipment professionally, it is a lot of money for hobbyist or personal purchases.In your example, the repair plan will set you back $1.1k on your 33522B (1/3 of the price, according toKeysight). One could argue that, if you deem that brand so dependable, why spend so much in a repair plan? O0Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 15, 2015, 07:29:24 pmThat is where you lose me. While I agree with your overall comments about the repairability, brand alone does not mean dependability and performance anymore. The marketplace is changing, and it is not unusual to see comparably priced equipment losing ground in features, "featured bugs" and even build quality.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 08:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 14, 2015, 02:02:19 amThe calibration certificate that came with my Keysight N2795A probe says it has a measured bandwidth of over 2 GHz.Not bad for a "1 GHz" probe IMHO, and much cheaper than the Rigol.I wonder if there's an adapter available?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 05:39:11 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza][quote author=Wuerstchenhund on October 15, 2015, 07:29:24 pmPerhaps I should have clarified that in my last paragraph; repair plans are easily amortized if you use the equipment professionally, it is a lot of money for hobbyist or personal purchases. It's not expensive, in fact, these repair agreements are often surprisingly cheap.QuoteNot sure what makes you think a repair agreement for a $3600 device is $1.1k (which would be ludicrous):https://service.keysight.com/infoline/public/product-service.aspx?laf=mya&pn=33522B&lc=eng&cc=USA single year costs a staggering $72. I'm in the UK, and I just paid a bit under £300 for 3yrs repair agreements for my 33522B and my E5810A GPIB LAN controller, both bought very cheaply from the US via ebay.QuoteBecause, as an engineer, I am well aware that any piece of complex electronics can fail, and the repair agreement is a very cheap insurance against that risk. That means I got the same protection as with a brand new device, while paying an overall much lower price.QuoteI deal with a lot of test equipment as part of my job, and aside from the LeCroy WaveRunner Xi (which has a pretty poor build quality) I can't recall when I came across a big brand instrument with inferior build quality.As to features, B-brands like Rigol tend to add features in a check box ticking exercise without thinking about the implementation. The best example is the sample memory of their scopes. 140M in the DS6000 sounds like a lot, it's much more than the big brands offer, and it looks really great on the spec sheet. But the sad reality is that you can't do a lot with it as there are no search or analysis tools to find stuff like runts or glitches in memory. And manually searching through 140M of recordings is absolutely painful. Plus, despite the large memory, FFT is limited toa measly 2048 pointsaccording to Rigol (although the owner of the DS000 told me it has been increased to 16k points in a recent firmware update), which is really nothing else than embarrassing (most DSOs in the late '90s had better FFT). Big brand scopes in the same class come with less sample memory but they do have tools to make better use of it, plus FFT uses a lot more points, and in the lab that's a much bigger advantage than having a huge sample memory with no tools. Other features (math, trigger, measurements) of the DS6000 are pretty basic, more akin to what you'll find in modern bottom-of-the-barrel scopes.The other problem with B-brands is that they often tend to implement features in a half-working state. Just check the threads for any Rigol gear (DS2000, DS1000z, DS4000), almost all of their products come with non-working or half-working features, plus a ton of other bugs.Big brands scopes may not come with some sticker features as a very large sample memory, but they generally come with better implementations of things that don't look sexy on the spec sheet but make a scope much more useful on the bench. They will generally bring a product on the market when its in a mature state, and any bugs that slipped through testing are usually fixed pretty quickly.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 05:52:47 am
content: Let us know the range of power measurement of the FFT function on the 6102. My 1054z only goes up to 50kdBV. Might not be enough to measure a local supernova.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 06:09:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 16, 2015, 04:27:32 amThey usually like to offer you a lot of extra kit, rather than a big discount, so they can keep the total sales value as high as possible.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 06:21:38 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 16, 2015, 04:27:32 am"Mentor" sounds like education, and in education the rules re. pricing are completely different from the outside world.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 06:23:24 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 16, 2015, 06:20:21 amYou'd be surprised

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 06:35:45 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 16, 2015, 06:25:50 amThey are probably listing their equipment at about 3 times cost, judging by prices for other complex equipment sold in similar volumes. 40% would mean they are only a little above cost, and they would go bankrupt if they sold everything at that price. As long as they are above cost, however, they are not actually subsidising sales, and they can sell all they need to educational establishments for marketing purposes.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 07:41:56 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 16, 2015, 06:23:24 amTwo examples cases I can immediately think of:o on an existing active production line, the cost of re-developing test processes to use a new scope would easily outstrip the 2.8k price;o in education, an entire course may well have been engineered a few years ago around a particular scope, the cost and time to produce a new course and re-equip a lab will be far more than picking up a replacement or odd additional scope.But in essence the OP right, I wouldn't buy the Tek TDS2024B I bought a decade ago again for about that price (£1,800), but to be fair it has paid for itself many, many times over during that time. Technology and bang for buck has improved no end in that time, I'd be nuts to want to replace it with the same again in my one-man-band lab for the same cost. While it is a bit of a dinosaur these days, one thing that can be said for it though is that it doesn't have any bugs!

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 07:59:29 am
content: QuoteThat may be the case if you do a single acquisition and fill the 140Mpts of memory. However, if you use the segmented memory feature and fill that 140Mpts of memory with, for example, ~32000 frames each 14kpts long then you can use analyze mode (yes the scope has one) to compare each frame to either a reference waveform (and you can set a threshold for how much it's allowed to deviate) or a pass/fail mask. The scope will then do the analysis and flag all frames considered to be in error and you can jump back and forth between them as you wish.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 09:05:07 am
content: Quote from: H.O on October 16, 2015, 07:59:29 amActually that sounds pretty cumbersome, but I guess on the DS6000 it's necessary as mask testing is pretty slow on that scope (too slow for proper real time use). Plus this only works on repetitive signals, and for those on other scopes I'd just setup mask test and histogram in real-time.I also had a look at the DS6000 manual, and it seems the "analysis" mode is really just that, mask testing/comparison against a waveform template during the playback of a sampled dataset, and that seems to be it. That's really not much more than what you get with cheap low end scopes like the DS2000 (and I wouldn't be surprised if the DS1000z can do that as well), and nothing to write home about in for a scope in the class of a DS6000.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 09:11:50 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on October 16, 2015, 07:41:56 amA lot of these scopes go to certain customers that traditionally buy Tek and who were offered these scopes when they needed some low end scope. Usually those that do the deals have no idea what else is out there, so they apply the IBM principle (no-one got ever fired for buying IBM).QuoteThat's a positive. I guess the costs to produce those scopes should be pretty low these days, so Tek certainly doesn'tneedto charge these ridiculous prices and could probably sell much more of them if the price was much more reasonable (doesn't even have to be cheap). But then, that would be against the way things are done in Danaher

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 09:41:38 am
content: It's funny because when a "A-brand" scope is "criticised" for not having long memory the "A-brand people" says it doesn't need it because one can just set up a trigger to capture that runt pulse (or glitch or whatever) anyway. Now when a B-brand scope does have long memory IT can't be used to capture that runt pulse (or glitch or whatever) because there is no (not enough or the correct) search/analysis/navigation tools....QuoteI don't understand, if the signal isn't repetitive how well does the mask testing work on those other scopes?Yes, real time mask testing on, at least my DS4k, is pretty slow. Analyzing recorded frames is quite quick though.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 10:21:27 am
content: Quote from: H.O on October 16, 2015, 09:41:38 amFirst, A-brands are regularly critiziced for their often small sample memory, i.e. Keysight with their 'new' DSOX3kT with 4M (which is due to limitations of their MegaZoom ASIC).Second, you're right, a proper set of triggers and analysis tools helps a lot of capturing a problem, and it does so in real-time. But the DS6000 has nothing of that sort, all it has is a very large sample memory.I'm not saying you can't capture glitches with the DS6000, but frankly these days and in this scope class the last thing I want to do is to sit through recordings and wait for the scope to do one-to-one comparisons, which is the only way you can find your glitches with the DS6000. This was a common method with DSOs in the late '90s/early 2000's, but in the mid-range class we have long moved on from that, plus as I said before, this method only works for repetitive signals (for debugging non-repetitive signals the DS6000 has even less to offer).These days in this scope class I'd expect to see the signal analyzed in real-time, with every deviation from the preset conditions highlighted in a histogram. This gives me more or less immediate feedback on when exactly a problem occurs, and that helps tremendously to isolate the source of a problem. And for that I don't really need 140M of memory, but I need proper triggers and a fast processing subsystem that can cope with the data.This is the standard that the big brands offer in this class.QuoteYou misunderstood. I was stating that your method works for repetitive signals only, and that for those (repetitive signals) I'd use real-time mask testing and histogram mode on other scopes.For non-repetitive waveforms mask testing isn't well suited for obvious reasons, and for that I'd use advanced triggers or (on my LeCroy scopes) WaveScan to capture deviations in real-time.

author: hs3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 10:34:13 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 16, 2015, 10:21:27 amCould you clarify what these proper triggers are that all the "A-brand" scopes have but that are missing from the DS6000? Some specifics should help understanding this better.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 07:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: hs3 on October 16, 2015, 10:34:13 amWell, examples for basic triggers would be Runt Trigger (captures meta-stable pulses, i.e. pulses with reduced amplitude, most scopes can also combine it with a time condition), Timeout trigger (absent pulses), Sequence Trigger (A/B Trigger, armes after one condition and triggers at another, different condition). Especially the first two are pretty useful.These triggers are pretty basic stuff for probably any big brand mid-range scope made in the last 15 years or so. All of them seem to be absent from the DS6000.Keysight's competitor scope to the DS6000 (DSOX3000T) also offers Zone Triggering (triggers for an even in a specific zone of the waveform).My (!!!)personal favorite however is WaveScan:(Please be aware that the video is from 2008but it's still a good explanation what WaveScan does). WaveScan (which works on captured data as well as on real-time data) was originally only available in high-end scopes but these days it's also standard in LeCroy's mid-range scope that competes in the DS6000's class (WaveSurfer 3000).Even Tek's MDO3k has somewhat similar toolsets (Wave Inspector) and triggers.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2015, 06:13:37 pm
content: QuoteIs runt trigger really missing, or is it just that the manual is incorrect for the DS6k?The DS4k has runt for example, and I remember checking the manual available online at that time - because of something you said actually - and noticed that there were more features in the scope than shown in the manual. The manual has been updated for the DS4k since then.I think missing pulse trigger could be emulated by the Rigol pulse trigger - trigger on a negative pulse width greater than normal.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2015, 09:01:22 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 16, 2015, 05:39:11 amWell, it was from your own post:Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 15, 2015, 07:29:24 pmI got the price of a new one and divided by three...That said, the amounts you mentioned are much more reasonable, but contingent to a reasonably priced and well maintained used equipment from eBay (as blueskull said and I can attest, the clearance center has spotless equipment).Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 16, 2015, 05:39:11 amI was just pulling your leg with this one (thus the O0 icon) - agree 100% and wish Rigol would do the same.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 16, 2015, 05:39:11 amFrom this point and on everything was already discussed in several other threads (here,hereandhereare just some examples); no need to revisit all this again.I still think the price/performance ratio of the clearance center is very compelling for hobbyists/enthusiasts, also due to the number of bugs already fixed in the latest firmware releases (for example, one of thebug lists for DS4000in this forum is mostly outdated). If anything, it shows they are listening and improving step by step - obviously I am a newcomer as my DS4014 is two months old, but others such as Dr. Diesel suffered longer with the existing bugs and are clearly more frustrated with it.Rigol is a relative newcomer to the market and it is fighting on price, even in mid range models - otherwise, I suspect the A-brands wouldn't be so generous with their free upgrades and discounted bundles. In my opinion, Rigol (and other B-brands) are putting a lot of pressure to materialize all this generosity, only lacking time and resources to reach the level of expertise of the A-brands (which will still take some time if they are running a low profit operation).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 11:02:44 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 19, 2015, 09:01:22 pmActually what I said was"... I recently bought an 33522B AWG on ebay and a 3yr repair agreement for roughly 1/3rd of the price of a new one in basic config (while the one from ebay came with several options)...". The'1/3rd of the price of a new one'refered to what I paid for the whole setup (device plus repair agreement).I agree that 1/3rd of a device's RRP would be pretty expensive for a repair agreementQuoteReally, all that is required is that the device is working when you buy the agreement (and if it doesn't work then ebay pretty much has you covered anyways).As to price, unless you want something really special/rare then there are often deals to be had. Keysight's ebay store is always a good start.QuoteI haven't read through the various threads as I don't own a Rigol scope, but as mentioned before I know a few owners of the higher priced Rigol kit, and while they said that many issues have been fixed for the DS4000 there are still issues which are pretty annoying, and it appears the DS6000 sees even less love from Rigol than the DS4000.It's great that Rigol has fixed many of the bugs in the DS4000, but frankly the scope should have never been brought to market with that number of bugs in the first place. Plus it seems that the higher bandwidth models of the DS4000 suffer from some stability issues for which Rigol so far has been unable to find the root cause (apparently it's some hardware problem, not a firmware issue).QuoteI'm sorry but even when leaving brand reputation, support, firmware bugs etc aside, there isn't much which would sway me to buy a Rigol instead of an A-brand, neither in features nor in (retail) price.I would agree with you 100% if we were talking about low-end/entry-level scopes, but I honestly can't see how Rigol would be putting pressure on the mid-range class with scopes that are inferior in terms of performance and features while costing almost the same as their a-brand competitors. Even less so when also considering that, while a lot of entry level scopes are bought by hobbyists, mid-range scopes are generally bought by businesses where vendor support and reputation play a much bigger role (and any price advantage that Rigol may have in the retail market is essentially void).The simple reason why the big brands come up with promos is because of competition from other A-brands (i.e. Keysight's current promo for the DSOX3kT is a reaction to LeCroy pushing WaveSurfer 3000 scopes at very low prices into the market). Rigol plays no part in that.But at the end of the day I guess it comes down price and expectations, and I guess if the price is sufficiently low (and I mean really low!) and you're fine with a basic scope (and can live with the bugs and the basic support) then a DS6000 might be worth considering. But still, many people (especially when upgrading from low-end scopes) are often not familiar with the mid-range market, and unaware what the mid-range class offers much more than what can be found in Rigol's products (something you can see quite regularly on these forums, probably because a large part of its member base are hobbyists). Which is why doing some research before making a purchase decision is important.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 06:08:41 pm
content: QuoteCould you elaborate on the stability issues on the high bandwidth models, I hadn't heard that before.

author: commongrounder
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 06:50:05 pm
content: Quote+1 on that. I follow Rigol DS4000 issues pretty closely and haven't heard of this either.Wuerstchenhund, what is your source for this information?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 07:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on October 20, 2015, 06:08:41 pmAs I said, I don't have a Rigol scope myself so I don't follow its issues closely, but it seems that at least some of the 500MHz variants apparently suffer from regular lock-ups. I don't know if its limited to certain hardware versions, and if so if all of them are affected or just some, but from what I was told Rigol is aware of the problem but doesn't know what causes it and how to fix it.Quote from: commongrounder on October 20, 2015, 06:50:05 pmTwo owners of DS4054s I know of which one is now through his third replacement scope.If my memory serves me right then I believe that this (or a similar) issue was also mentioned in this forum some time ago (the thread was I think about someone who had a Tek DSO dying on him looking for a new scope that for some reason shouldn't contain PC hardware).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 04:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 20, 2015, 11:02:44 amHahaha! Funny how two people can read the same sentence and have completely different understandings...Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 20, 2015, 11:02:44 amApart from one offer I saw a while ago, I am still to find another really competitive offer from Keysight's eBay store for hobbyist/enthusiast level oscilloscopes. But that may be just me...Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 20, 2015, 11:02:44 amNo contest there. Despite I still think Rigol's struggle with firmware is understandable from a newcomer perspective, I don't think it should have been released with so many issues from the get go.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 20, 2015, 11:02:44 amIt is hard to dissociate brand from overall quality perception, but I would not probably be swayed either by price alone if I had my rear end on the line (nobody is fired for buying IBM). However, one point that A-brands should be concerned is that, as people use Rigol's gear as hobbyists, they start to get comfortable with its quirks and interface. If Rigol survives long enough in this marketplace, there is a strong chance they will eat the market from the ground up.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 20, 2015, 11:02:44 amIn hindsight, I think my comments were swayed by the price I got for my DS4104 (US$1.6k with new 500MHz passive probes), which was pretty difficult to match with eBay's offers of newer generation oscilloscopes from the A-brands (yes, I did a large search as I mentionedhere). Closer to US$3k the search can be widely expanded.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 05:58:57 pm
content: For me, as a hobbyist, when I purchased my DS4014 in 2012 there simple was no alternative at that price point for a 4 channel 100MHz 4Gs/s scope - that I could find. Heck I couldn't even FIND a list price for some of the A-brand models.... When my 100MHz scope later turned out to be "upgrdeable" to a 500MHz scope that price/performance ratio got even better - a lot better.As for the problems with the DS6102 that this thread is about,1 and 2 sucks for sure. It'll be very interesting to hear what they say about it.3 It's personal preference I think. Some people think Rigol scopes are loud, some don't. My DS4014 was pretty loud so I replaced the fan at the cost of a slightly warmer unit. They could probably have done a bit better but I wouldn't call it a bug/issue/problem.4 Just the way they decided to do it, it's the same on all their stuff as far as I know. If you ask I'd be surprised won't supply you with new trial licenses. Or you might want to look into getting them activated permanently, though I don't know how compatibel the DS6k is with the others in that regard.....

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 06:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 21, 2015, 04:28:31 pmI guess that's one of the limitations of this form of communication. Also, English isn't my first language, so I'll probably make a fair bit of mistakes.QuoteI doubt that, and it can sometimes be difficult to find the good one amongst the masses of overpriced crap on ebay. As to the Keysight store, not everything there is priced attractively (especially older gear can be overly expensive), but they seem to not list everything they have, so it might be worth just asking them if they can offer you the item you want.QuoteI wouldn't call them a newcomer, in fact, Rigol makes scopes for much longer than say Rohde & Schwarz (the first Rigol scope came out around 2002 if I remember right). They have also produced entry-level scopes for Agilent. You'd think that being in the business for over a decade that by now they have figured out that software is as important as hardware. And they really got the hardware bit right (the hardware quality is pretty good), they (unlike Siglent) even managed to come up with some decent UIs for their kit.A while ago I talked with some colleagues who worked in China, and they said that the reason why software in Chinese products regularly sucks is pretty much cultural, as software isn't considered valuable over there (one reason why piracy is so high there). Which isn't that surprising, considering that the same thinking as (and still is) prevaillent in some Western companies, but by now it should be pretty clear that to get somewhere in T&M the whole package (software and hardware) must be right. Good support is a big thing as well. That Rigol still doesn't understand that is worrying, even more so when they now have a US subsidiary which you'd think would help get the software quality issues sorted out, but it doesn't look like that's the case.QuoteI doubt that. Any hobbyist who decides to pursue the career of an EE will very likely get into contact with big brand kit on college, and even if not there then very likely when starting to work as EE. And the enthusiasm for Rigol will hardly last long when confronted with the superior capabilities of a A-brand mid-range scope, plus the fact that the big brand scope is unlikely to suffer from similar firmware issues as the Rigol gear. Most EE graduates we get know Rigol (usually because they own some Rigol kit) but the majority seems to be well aware that there is quite a difference between Rigol and big brand, especially outside the entry-level class. And as big brands are essentially giving gear away for education this is unlikely to change anytime soon.We also have had a few people who really didn't know much more than their Rigol scope (or their old analog banger). We usually sit them on a bench with a modern DSO and some low complexity circuit and ask them to perform some simple tasks (i.e. measure signal jitter). If they then start to fiddle with cursors then they get a quick introduction into the jitter analysis package, at which point you can hear the penny dropSeriously, unless Rigol comes up with something groundbreaking they will remain stuck to the entry level/hobbyist/startup market, and even if they do they'd still have to dramatically improve support to even make a dent.QuoteWell, $1600 isn't a bad price for a hackable 4ch scope, and in the end it only comes down on what you want the scope to do and if you can live with its bugs and Rigols support.Back to the topic, for what the OP wants to do and the amount he could spend I'm sure there would have been a few big brand options available for the money he was willing to spend and considering that he's obviously fine with only 3months warranty. Especially if the requirement is ETS (although for that price you could also find a scope with proper jitter analysis software).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 07:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 14, 2015, 05:05:08 pmMake sure you can return it and don't think twice about returning it if you find nasty bugs. There is no use to spend this kind of money on a product which doesn't work properly. You quickly forget the amount of money you spend but annoyances keep haunting you forever!In that price range you could also have bought a used Agilent DSO7104 (with all options liberated) and have a scope you know will work as advertised (BTW the Agilent 7000 seriest has 400Gs/s ETS and MSO). I went down the 'cheap' Chinese mid-range scope road before and ended up wasting a lot of money.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 09:38:23 pm
content: blueskull, in addition to nctnico's suggestion I would take a look atthis oneas well. 20ns/div in RIS (ETS) mode, manufacturer refurbished with passive probes. (perhaps with that I get to Wuerstchenhund's good side again)I only wish I was able to cough up that kind of money with my hobby...

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 10:45:57 pm
content: Whatever you do, don't hold onto it thinking they'll fix it someday because you never know if that will happen. Good luck.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 10:56:28 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on October 21, 2015, 10:45:57 pmI agree. I made that mistake with Siglent. Someone on this forum once commented something along this line: 'if it ain't there out of the box don't expect it to arrive later'. The sooner you return something because it doesn't work properly the easier it is to get your money back!I suspect the DS6102 is a customer return hence the discount and shorter warranty.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2015, 11:34:32 pm
content: Get this in writing (e-mail)!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 03:28:46 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 21, 2015, 10:31:57 pmFunny you mentioned the size factor, which was something I had to consider during my research but thought it was a rather unusual constraint.The LeCroy seems a good offer for the price, although there are others around that may fit your place:here,hereandhere...

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 05:56:57 am
content: QuoteQuoteThis I agree with. If it's a user error (which I'm sure it isn't) then a couple of days to verify and tell you HOW to use it should be more than enough but if it's actually broken then expecting them to actually FIX it in a couple of days probably isn't realistic. So IF they say they WILL fix it make them put that in writing together with an extended time for you to return in case they don't deliver.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 06:40:54 am
content: Blueskull, what is the software version of your DS6102?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 11:24:31 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 21, 2015, 09:38:23 pmThat's actually not a bad offer! The WaveRunner 6000A Series are great high end scopes, as you said it can do ETS (RIS, 200GSa/s), and this one even seems to come with the Jitter and Timing Analysis package (JTA2), Master Analysis package (XMATH) and a few other goodies. JTA2 is a great toolset and with it you can even do jitter measurements and eye diagrams in real-time mode. The built-quality is also top-notch.Here's the datasheet:https://www.testwall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LECRO_WAVERUNNER43159.pdfI believe LeCroy still offers warranty for these scopes if so desired.QuoteI havesides?QuoteIf the seller would ship to the UK then I'd be really tempted to make him an offer but its U.S> onlyQuote from: blueskull on October 21, 2015, 10:31:57 pmIt's actually not that big, have a look at the datasheet. The WR6000 looks bigger on pictures than it really is (I was surprised how small it was when I first saw one in real life). It's certainly a bit deeper than the Rigol, but smaller in other dimensions.I seriously doubt you'll find a better debugging scope for that money. Even a DSO7104 (which is a good scope) can't match that.QuoteAs others said, if they can't fix it now then you're better off returning it. If it's a defect then Rigol should repair it, if its a (another) firmware issue then I'd return it because if they haven't fixed it in all these years that thing is on the market then it's unlikely they do it now.

author: tequipment
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2015, 04:28:57 pm
content: blueskull is there something we at tequipment can help you with?EvanTEquipment.NET