OMG this is happening !!! Loongson 3A5000 laptops finally available - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 04:21:46 pm
content: Many years ago a Lemote Yeeloong laptop was sent toRichard Stallman, and he liked it. Unfortunately it was difficult to buy one of these fully-opensource (from the bios up) laptops, and the hardware was not so powerful.Today, things are different. There are new MIPS laptops around, and the new Loongson 3A5000 laptop is available.This time, a piece of very rock-hardwareCurious? would you experience an "unboxing"?watchI want one, I want one, I want one, please take my money and send me one!

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 07:11:49 pm
content: I will have no problems changing the x86 wintel stodgy platform....As a matter of fact ... unless some real leadership with balls enough to change the dull game...x86 platform is nowadays nothing than a repetition of old really stodgy past maidens game...Good tho have a viable alternative aheadPaul

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 07:13:59 pm
content: I doubt they'll enough of these to even break even. Sure it's a cool idea, but probably less than 0.1% of computer users care one bit if the hardware of their laptop is open source. I have absolutely no desire to modify my laptop.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 07:22:01 pm
content: More variety is good. For sustainability, independence and innovation.While the chinese are certainly working towards that goal, I'm not sure we should particularly rejoice about their own work. We should just do the same.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 08:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 07, 2022, 07:13:59 pmdo you specifically need some x86-binary software?Windows application or something like that?It's my case, but I can have three laptops1) for Windows 10 and windows-specific applications2) for MacOS M1/2 and M1/2-specific applications (e.g. Finalcut)3) for Linux ... here a MIPS laptop is great!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 08:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 07, 2022, 07:22:01 pmwe should work on a RISC-v laptop made in Europe. It would be great

author: abquke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 08:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 07, 2022, 08:34:04 pmHopefully cross-compiling for ARM is no harder on MIPs than it is on x86...

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 09:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: abquke on August 07, 2022, 08:42:12 pmeh, ... on MIPS32 and MIPS64 there are several problems with uclibc, MUSL, glibc, plus other issues with llvm; Loongson 3A5000 is not exactly "MIPS64", it's not 100% compatible, but it has support from several Chinese companies, I hope they will fix stuff.Anyway, I will order one of these laptops for October

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 09:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 07, 2022, 08:39:08 pmhttps://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-personal-computer.htmlhttps://twitter.com/minut_e/status/1447966316741206016Made in Germany.CPU and RAM are on a card so you can have ARM, MIPS, RISC-V, FPGA, etc...Currently a shipping product with ARM CPU.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 07:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 07, 2022, 08:34:04 pmYes, several, otherwise I'd have moved completely to Linux years ago. I use Win7 for stuff that needs it and Linux for everything else. Any Windows stuff that won't run on 7 is one more thing I try to find a Linux solution for. Used x86 laptops are cheap and plentiful.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 08:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 08, 2022, 07:33:19 pmAnd they work well enough running linux. When they don't, it's typically a problem with drivers, etc. Porting to another platform, even one that's open source, is not likely to improve the situation.Don't get me wrong, I do think options are good and even necessary. It's a little disheartening how MS seems to be dictating the HW, but that's nothing new. As long as I can keep running linux stably on x86 HW, and exploit all the features of that HW including GPU etc, then I have no problem with x86.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 09:46:43 pm
content: power button as a regular key and absence of dedicated insert key means "NO NO and NO" .. sorry..

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 12:15:31 am
content: Aside from being (partially?) open source hardware, it just looks like another cheap Chinese gadget to me... am I missing something significant?I'm a bit dubious about any product that has ties to the Chinese Government and the Chinese Communist Party. In this case, it's a joint venture involving the Chinese Institute of Computing Technology. It mentions that these machines are designed to be used with "free software" from the "BIOS upwards". Free does not necessarily mean open source and even if it was completely open source, what about the hardware "below" the BIOS level? Does anyone truly know what those Loongson processors are doing? Devices that "phone home" to China are pretty common. I'm not suggesting this is the case with these particular machines (I haven't looked into them in any great detail), but can anyone be confident that they aren't, or don't have some kind of deliberate design that would allow for eavesdropping?

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 01:56:54 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2022, 12:15:31 amPerhaps many people do not know the fact that Hu Weiwu, the boss of Loongson(Godson), is a loyal fan of Mao!

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 02:12:42 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2022, 01:59:40 amI'm just trying to tell everyone that this company does have ties to the CCP, and their boss is an extreme Maoist. (meaning I won't buy any of their products)

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:05:33 am
content: Quote from: oPossum on August 07, 2022, 09:33:21 pm4x 1.5 GHz A53 is the same as Pi 3 and quite far from the ARM SBC state of the art (2.4 GHz A76, RK3588 boards), let alone x86 of course.It's basically the same specs as the best RISC-V SBC you'll be able to buy this year, the ~$60 (with 4 GB RAM) Pine64 Star64. Or the now out of production HiFive Unmatched.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:33:16 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 08, 2022, 09:46:43 pmIf it is a similar approach as a Chromebook, several key combinations overcome the absence of these keys - however, both Google and Loongson will be watching every step of the way. Also, asubset of MIPS64is a turnoff for me, regardless of the specs themselves - the amount of developers on this ISA is quite limited in comparison.So, no thanks. Not for me.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:39:52 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 09, 2022, 03:05:33 amYeah. Get a cheap SBC, a nice IPS panel, a decent keyboard, and there you go.Go for a not-so-cheap SBC for much better performance and M2 slots. (You can find some for $100 to $150.)

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:47:52 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 09, 2022, 03:33:16 amI get the impression Loongson machines are for government use (as Elbrus is in Russia), where they're quite happy to have something a bit unusual. Not so much that it stops outsiders from running or understanding their software (qemu can run Loongson), but probably much more importantly, make it more difficult for staff to run unauthorised software.The commercial world in China seems to be going heavily for RISC-V.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 06:10:42 am
content: Quote from: gamalot on August 09, 2022, 02:12:42 amSorry, I completely misread what you wrote initially. My mistake. I guess I'm more tired than I thought I was. I've removed my previous post.

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 07:29:28 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2022, 06:10:42 amIt's ok, English is not my native language, I use google translate and it's hard for me to grasp the subtleties.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 05:52:13 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 08, 2022, 09:46:43 pmI've never owned a laptop that has the power button as a regular key, but even so, you can just set it to do nothing unless you hold it down. I have never in my life used the Insert key, it seems like one of those vestigial keys like Scroll Lock. What is it even for?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 06:57:06 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 09, 2022, 05:52:13 pmapparently you're not a linux guy if you never used the insert keyfor a opensource laptop the majority of the users would be linux guys...power button as a regular key is annoying because you can hit it by accident and sleep your laptop in a middle of something important.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 09:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 09, 2022, 06:57:06 pmI've been using Linux since ... 1996? ... much of the time as my main desktop system (it was for many years before the M1 Macs came out, but I switched to MacOS (with Linux in a VM  while waiting for native Linux there) and others such as Sun before that.I'm sure I have never knowingly used the Insert key for anything. I'm not even sure how it relates. see, for example some tests, including Linux in a VM on M1, I ran in November 2020https://hoult.org/arm64_mini.html

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 10:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2022, 12:15:31 amYup, it's a MIPS64-- that you can buy in laptop shape! That's the value!!!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 10:38:40 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 09, 2022, 06:57:06 pmI've been using Linux in some capacity for >20 years, pretty heavily for the last 3 or 4, in fact the system I'm typing this on right now is running Linux. I've never used the Insert key, ever.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 10:47:57 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2022, 12:15:31 amI am fixing stuff for theOlimex's Teres1, based on theAllwinner SoC A64, basically ARM64 + OR (bugged) MPU, 2GB of ram.u-bootis full of blobs for the boot-stage2, andAllwinnerdoesn't provide all the drivers, so forget about the GPU-acceleration and forget about theThermal Unit support(battery-save mode, done by the bugged OR MPU inside the SoC) if you want run a recent kernel because these features are NOT provided as OpenSource, otherwise ... you are limited to a very ol Linux v3 and their binary blobs.At leastLoongson 3A5000laptops don't seem to have these hassles, and it's a largely better laptop.I mean, talking about the quality, theTeres1has thelook and feelof a plastic toy for kids.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 10:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 09, 2022, 03:33:16 amIt's not a problem. By applying their patches to a dedicated toolchain, I am willing go create dedicated LoongArch-GS464V-stage3 and stage4Already done several times for MIPS4 that is more problematic.Quote from: rsjsouza on August 09, 2022, 03:33:16 amSmall audience, even smaller devs, all good, for me it's a sign of distinction from the mass

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 10:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 09, 2022, 03:39:52 amSBC + IPS panel + keyboard don't make a laptop!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 11:09:23 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 09, 2022, 09:29:51 pmI have been using Linux since 2005 when I switched from BeOS to GNU / Linux. Never used the ins key, I recently bought an old HHKB (ps / 2) keyboard (membrane base, not topre), and I'm really happy to have the CTRL key instead of the CAPSlock.To be honest, I would like to have it, but also a shorter space bar.In my wish list ... the hope that with an open-hardware laptop, in theory, you could remap keys at the keyboard firmware level.With the Teres1 laptop it's possible since the keyboard controller is a module that you you can replace or reprogram

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 11:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 09, 2022, 03:47:52 amInteresting datapoints. I wasn't aware of that but it makes perfect sense to have a non-mainstream platform for strategic/security reasons.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 11:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 09, 2022, 10:47:57 pmHave you ever seen one in the wild to feel the quality? Images can be deceiving.Not that it is a bad quality laptop because of that, but the opposite might not be true either. I was fooled in the past by stunning photographs and videos of computers of varied backgrounds and breeds.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 11:21:19 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 09, 2022, 11:12:04 pmGood point! I think we need an Amazon way to test theLoongson 3A5000laptop!Something like this: feel free to try it on and return it within 30 days of payment if you are not satisfied!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 12:33:34 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 09, 2022, 11:21:19 pmIndeed. If that ever reaches these shores and Amazon picks it up, Prime customers would probably benefit.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 03:23:40 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 09, 2022, 11:09:23 pmI use Caps Lock occasionally, but not nearly as often as I bump it by accident. It would be nice if it were a small obscure key, say up there where Ins is, maybe in place of Scroll Lock, I never really understood what that was for even back in the days of the IBM PC, it must be the least used key ever.Remapping keys would be useful, as long as the keycaps are interchangeable.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 03:35:03 am
content: Yeah, I personally never use the Caps Lock or Insert keys whatsoever except when I accidentally hit them, to get back to the normal state.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 04:32:57 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 09, 2022, 10:58:51 pmThis is true, but then I've had little or no use-case for a laptop for ... nearly a decade?I've got an M1 Mac Mini, and before that came out I had an i7-8650U (quad core 4.2 GHz) NUC running Linux -- which, incidentally, performed *much* better on things such as long compiles than the exact same CPU in a Thinkpad X1 Carbon that my employer supplied, for example 20 minutes vs 30+ minutes on building riscv-gnu-toolchain, because of the better cooling.Mac Mini or NUC serve my "can use it in multiple places e.g. home and office" needs very well, being as portable, if not more, as a laptop. The NUC literally fit comfortably into my jeans front pocket.https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBZ7HO7UEAAfAAX.jpgIf I need to check email or slack or eevblog or reddit or whatever on the go, my phone does just fine. I don't spend hours a day on a bus or train or plane wanting to get programming done -- if I'm going somewhere then driving is usually the only option anyway. Except inter- or trans-continental travel, on which I'm sleeping as much as humanly possible, not working.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 04:38:03 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 08, 2022, 09:46:43 pmOK, so that's half a dozen rather knowledgable and experienced Linux users who never use the Ins key and in general don't know why you would.Care to enlighten us?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 07:06:35 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 10, 2022, 04:32:57 amWell, for computer-insensitive things I won't use a laptop exceptas X11 and Vt-terminalto a bigIBM POWER10, which is *THE* computer.Intel and AMD simply MUST die once and forever, for me it's only garbage and hate. Don't get me wrong, I have to use their shitty architecture because some software is x86-only, but I am not happy when I have to put my money on x86.Anyway, speaking of why you don't need high computer power under laptop skin (1), when I visited the last hack meeting in Estonia, the best idea ever seen was an optic-fiber KVM in laptop shape. That's the kind of object that really makes sense as "cool thing" that you will also really enjoy use if you are the kind that needs a keyboard and a video with all the computer power (and noise made by computers cooling fans) running somewhere else, remotely.I tried this for two days, all the computers were 800 meters far, inside a camper, while the KVM-laptop in a tend, and the optic link really thin and light and of the complementary color of the grass so that no one tripped over the cable.For C-coders and hackers, well ... it was insanely great(1) unless you are a traveling photographer or a Youtuber, or someone who needs to edit video in a hotel room or on the trainI mean, likeYeahRussia,Bald And Bankrupt, or theSatanej Setgalievna Kazanova's husband, especially when he did a video shoot in Siberia ....

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 07:12:25 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 10, 2022, 07:06:35 amand for those who need the battery-charge last as long as possible on the road, there is only one choice: anApple M1/M2 laptopwithFinalcutas software.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 07:37:39 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 10, 2022, 03:35:03 amYup!!! Give us thekeyboards for devs!I don't have to write a new script for Carrie, Miranda, Samantha and Charlotte, or any other smart and dynamic New York-based woman who sticks together through the ups and downs; my girlfriend loved that things and since she "writes" she loved keyboards with those damn CAPS, Grrr @ ~! $% $ £(you guess who had the last word, on buying a laptop, when we were students, with so limited budget that we had to share the second hand laptop ... a damn laptop with a keyboard made for writers, I mean journalists, so you can forget UK/USA layout)The best of today's economy is that things are so damn cheaper than years ago that you can emphatically state that you can buy a dedicated laptop where you don't need a CAPS keyboard because you don't have to write any literature on it, no news of war, no story of Neuromancer.Cyberpunkis live, give us a keyboard for C devs! for C libraries, kernel stuff, UNIX scripts! Gnat-when-you-can, otherwise Octave and tcltk/expect scripts, whatever "expect" is (wtf is? dunno, but it has just emerged)Give us HHKB on a laptop

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 07:49:23 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 10, 2022, 07:06:35 amThat's a very different use-case to mine, for sure, although on-phone editing software is pretty powerful now. And the phones too.btw, the first one has been "Natasha's Adventures" for a few months :-) Also check out Zangieff, Anastasie Vaskevich, Dari Step. Used to watch Baklykov but he got a bit unbearable. Also I seem to have caused his 40 minute rant against Natasha year or so ago. Извините пожалуйста, милая Наташа!

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 10:49:55 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 10, 2022, 04:38:03 amshift + insert to paste into terminal.... if you never used the insert key means you never needed paste into a terminal. so how on earth are you a "experienced linux user" ? sorry...

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 11:38:41 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 10, 2022, 10:49:55 amThere must be dozens of terminal applications in use on Linux.On *my* terminal, I use Ctrl-shift-V to paste or, more usually, middle-click, since I probably just used the mouse to select it elsewhere. Or, if I'm editing text within the terminal using keystrokes alone then it's C-y the same as in my text editor.I can't see any reason to move my hands from home position (or left hand in home position and right hand on the mouse) to go and look for an Ins key.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 11:50:24 am
content: Yeah, xrterm-like has Ctrl Shift Keys, ins is for Gnome terminals and alike, not better or something, simply different habbitsP.s. on Tekronix x11 terminals you have Ctrl Shift Keys, that is why I find it comfortable, because I spent a lot of time on Tek before switching to xrterm on Gnu/linux

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 11:56:02 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 10, 2022, 11:38:41 amHere, you would probably like keyboards like Yoda and YodaII

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 01:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 10, 2022, 10:49:55 amCode:edit /root/.XresourcesXTerm*vt100.translations: #override \Shift Ctrl <Key> C: copy-selection(CLIPBOARD) \n\Shift Ctrl <Key> V: insert-selection(CLIPBOARD)xrdb -merge ~/.Xresourcesthis will makexterm(invisible-island X11 terminal emulator) able to use Shift Ctrl C and V for copy and paste

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 02:32:59 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 10, 2022, 01:16:40 pmyou just provided further proof you're not a linux guy... apparently you have zero clue about terminal control characters and the meaning of Ctrl+C

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 03:27:23 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 10, 2022, 02:32:59 pmOh, and what is a "Linux guy"?is anyone with a special tattoo tatted on his penis?is anyone who doesn't drink coffee if he/she doesn't have a cup signed by Linus Benedict Torvalds in person?Just to say, who cares, enjoy myignorelist

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 03:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: oPossum on August 07, 2022, 09:33:21 pmI really really like the concept! I don't care about performance, nice post, thanksFPGAs ... well, to be honest, unless you use a very expensive Virtex FPGA, you will be limited about the clock speed. So, probably an FPGA-CPU-module is interesting, but only for a kind of X11-terminal in laptop shape to export DISPLAY (via ssh + x11 forwarding) from other remote machines.I mean, my Tektronix XP400 is powered by a 60Mhz MIPS R3000 CPU (Toshiba), it runs WxWorks + MWM Windows Manager, and the user experience is fluent enough ... therefore a 400Mhz Softcore should be enough with a minimalist environment .I am the kind who likes this kind of stuff

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 06:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 10, 2022, 03:27:23 pmahh.. someone got angrylinux guy is someone using linux.. everyone who is using linux know ctrl+C is used to send the interrupt signal in the terminal (which is a must have, otherwise the terminal is useless).feel free to ignore me, but i hope my comments motivated you to at least read into the topic so you will learn something

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 07:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 10, 2022, 10:49:55 amCrtl-shift-V is how I've always pasted in the terminal, I guess I assumed that's what everyone did. You can also right-click the mouse and select Paste if you're not so into keyboard shortcuts. I didn't know shift-insert would paste, never hurts to learn something new, but I don't see myself using that much, it takes two hands whereas I can crtl-shift-v with only my left hand without moving my palm from the home position.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 07:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on August 10, 2022, 06:20:18 pmCode:edit /root/.XresourcesXTerm*vt100.translations: #override \Shift Ctrl <Key> C: copy-selection(CLIPBOARD) \n\Shift Ctrl <Key> V: insert-selection(CLIPBOARD)xrdb -merge ~/.XresourcesSure, indeed, once again, the arrogance of ignorance is astounding: it'sShiftCtrl Cnot "Ctrl C", and this is all done using thetranslations resource override, documentedhereandherefor those who want to read how you can "bind" keys for copy and pasting to and from clipboard to XTerm.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 07:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 10, 2022, 07:06:35 amI don't share your love or hate for any particular architecture. x86, AMD, ARM, etc, I don't care, as long as I have the code compiled for whatever platform I'm on then I'm set, I don't care at all how it works internally.The fiber terminal sounds like a cool hack, but totally useless for day to day use. Why would I want to be tethered to a remote system by an optical fiber when I can have a standalone laptop capable of operating completely wirelessly? I move around the house with my laptop, I toss it in my pack and take it to the office, I go to a friend's house, I take it on vacation and use it to watch movies. Sometimes I work on projects when I'm out and about with no internet access. This is IMO far superior to being physically tied to a server. I see absolutely no value in that beyond "look at this novel thing I built because I can" which is of course a perfectly valid reason for doing something. It's in a similar class as V8 powered lawnmowers and super powerful LED flashlights.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 08:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 10, 2022, 07:27:16 pmYup, you see a computer like atool, like the hammer or the screwdriver; I also see some computers liketools(e.g. my intel mac-mini hosts a website, and I don't are it's an intel core2), but sometimes I like to go to the ISA side, and then to the assembler side, and here it's where love/hate makes sense.When you write a compiler for an architecture, it's when love/hate makes sense, and for sure I won't for sure make a compiler for x86, not even if paid a fortune.I wrote a C-like compiler for MIPS4++ (R18200, it's a prototype), I think I can adapt it for MIPS64 in three months or less, so you can understand why a MIPS64-laptop would make me very very happy

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 08:48:06 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 10, 2022, 07:27:16 pman operating system like Linux consumes much more energy than a simple firmware, it's more vulnerable to attacks, it's more complex, and it takes more time to bootstrap, not mentioning that RDP is ok when it stays alone, VNC is also ok when it stays alone, but since exporting x11 has a lot of latency, you have to combine X11 + VNC, or X11 + RDP, and this frankly sucks from the design point of view.The fiber terminal, on the contrary, is basically a fast MPU @400Mhz with some dedicated ASIC chip for the optic line and for the video encoding/decoding, it has only one protocol, the digital flow is hw encrypted (it should be two-fish), it's safe, simple design and insanely fast.The battery-charge lasts more than 40 hours! And the kvm-laptop itself is very very light, quite, and it's never even lukewarm!Plus, it really looks "cyberpunk", which brings us to a matter of tastes, but for sure I don't like wireless stuff because we are too plenty of antennas, not mentioning that wifi needs stronger encryption and - again - more complexity to manage it.A Fiber glass cable is what I'd like to plug into a laptop because it's fast and immune to electromagnetic issues! Unfortunately we don't have anything but ... copper Ethernet, and on Laptop like theTeres1(but also on my old Carbon X11) you don't have nothing but the WiFi, which is buggy on the Teres1, and doesn't work with modern kernels ... that's an other reason why I don't like WiFi-stuff: a lot of WiFi-drivers are full of binary blobs and issues, starting from the calibration data which I've always found incorrect in every single card I've ever gotten my hands (last one ... theAllwinnerWiFi module) and need weeks to be solved.Oh, and on tini SBCs like theWR703we have bugs like ... the WiFi antenna causes interference with the EHCI module. It got discussed for six months on theOpenWRTforum with the conclusion:accept it, it cannot be fixed, it's an hardware bug, disable the wifi if you want to use the EHCI, which was a FSKSHT, because, in the meantime, I had ported XINU to that SBC!So, you get the point: I have also always been very unlucky with WiFi stuff

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 08:51:36 pm
content: Yes, I mean it's COOL, but that doesn't make it useful. I don't want to plug a laptop into anything, I want it to be completely wireless, that's the best benefit of a laptop. If I'm tethered to a desktop I may as well just sit at the desk. Maybe back in the 90s this would have been great, a feather light portable terminal that only needs a single fiber connection but today I can have all the power and storage I need right inside the laptop and I can dispense with the server entirely. Granted I still use servers all the time, we call it the internet, but I can connect to those from anywhere with a range of different interfaces. I'm a big fan of novel projects like that, they're totally neat and creative, but that doesn't make them useful.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 10:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 10, 2022, 07:20:56 pmI think it's (past) time to give it up. The guy is either a halfwit who has painfully learned *some*thing and thinks he knows *every*thing, or else a simple troll.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 01:24:49 am
content: You don't need to bind anything at all, at least not on Mint. Shift-Crtl-C and Shift-Crtl-V work exactly like Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V do on Windows, right out of the box.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 07:43:43 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 11, 2022, 01:24:49 amIt's not magic, it depends on how things are configured.e.g. one day you need to use xterm onMobaXterm(1), and you find thatShift-Crtl-CandShift-Crtl-Vdo not work. How to solve it? ...That's it(1)MobaXtermis a single Windows application for remote computing, it provides all the important remote network {SSH, X11, RDP, VNC, FTP, ...} things, but the X11vt translations resourcehas a configuration that doesn't bindShift-Crtl-CandShift-Crtl-V.OK, on Windows you can still use native Windows clipboard functions, hence mouse.R->menu(copy) and mouse.R->menu(paste).Just in case, the lines I posted bind keys.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 08:30:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 10, 2022, 08:51:36 pmit's not useful for you, it's very useful for Ania an meConcerning security, a couple of the Estonian Hack meeting talks were about demonstrating how and why Wired networks are inherently more secure than wireless networks.Since the *channel* is a radio link, security is a major drawback for many wireless networks, indeed two talks demonstrated that even if you use sufficient security measures, including strong network passwords, your wireless network is still vulnerable to hijacking or interception by a determined hacker.Ania is the an hacker who made the kvm-laptop. She is a pretty Estonian girl with weird-colored hair (purple on blonde) but with very clear ideas concerning her hack.When I asked her -what are the benefits of a kvm-laptop?- she immediately replied -I made it for my personal needs and fun, but the first three that come in mind ... umm- she moved her wrist, like when you are going to count something with your fingers -first, reduced cost- up her index finger -second, increased security- up her middle finger -and third, more efficient battery and I can make it splash, water and dust proof- up her ring finger.I don't count things starting from the index finger, I am used to start from the thumb, anyway she was clear.When she talked about security, she meant unauthorized accesses are harder than on WiFi due to the physical optical link, the laser and the photo-detector that immediately triggers an error if the cable gets unplugged (here we are talking about *paranoia*, but "man in the middle"? attackers can forget it), and, since there is no USB-port, data can’t be copied or saved anywhere except for the remote server.Also, system monitoring and management are both easier based on the centralized server location.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 07:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 11, 2022, 08:30:44 amDoes that even really need a demonstration?

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2022, 07:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 10, 2022, 03:35:03 amI'm a long-time emacs user. The work machine is a Windows box and the home machines are Macs.Mac keyboards have not had an insert key for many years. Why? I have no fucking idea.In emacs, the Insert key toggles overwrite mode. That's the same behavior as in Notepad++ and Eclipse. I go between those modes all the time. This drives me bonkers on the Mac. If use a Windows keyboard with an Insert key, the right codes are sent, so that works.Word and Atom do not pay attention to the Insert key. Nor does the editor built into ModelSim. Nor does Thunderbird's editor. I could check more editors, but you get the point.Maybe it's because I'm not a great typist. Maybe it's because sometimes the overstrike mode is just really convenient. Think about having a block of hex words in a text document that you want to update. Overstrike is your friend!Anyway, grumble moan complain.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 12:18:48 pm
content: I am also a big fan of the hexa-cluster of keys (PgUp/PgDn,Home/End,Ins/Del) and really miss them on the keyboards that do not feature it, such as the Mac systems. I also extensively use the CapsLock/NumLock (useful for the long streams of part numbers) and the PrtScr for the occasional screenshot (especially with Screenpresso or other screen capture SW). So I guess this puts me in the weirdo corner...

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 11:27:23 pm
content: New Russian laptops by Bitblaze: rumors about the pre-production of Bitblaze Titan BM15 laptop based around the Baikal-M1 processor designed in Russia.The notebook is designed primarily for government agencies and enthusiasts, according to rumors it will likely enter mass production in November.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 11:33:57 pm
content: It's an Arm-Based Homegrown SoC, Cortex A57 with 8 cores

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 06:45:45 pm
content: And that said, while fiber is great and I would also like to see it more often directly on PC motherboards and laptops, there's a reason why Ethernet still prevails: it's cheaper, takes less space and draws less power. While the two last points do not matter a lot for desktop motherboards, they definitely do for laptops.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 07:47:35 pm
content: Yeap, the laser eats more power.Unfortunately neither the Russian laptop has any optic fiber.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 10:56:17 am
content: About the New Russian laptops by Bitblaze, seehere(English article)andhere(Russian website)BITBLAZE Titan BM15 specifications:SoC – Baikal-M1, BE-M1000, 28nm manufacturing processCore - octa-core Cortex-A57 processor, 1.5 GHz with Arm Mali-T628 GPUSystem Memory – 16GB RAM, SO-DIMM DDR4 socketsStorage – 250 to 512GB M.2 SSDDisplay – 15.6-inch IPS touchscreen display with 1920×1080 resolutionVideo Output – 1x HDMI portAudio – 3.5mm audio jackCamera – Front-facing webcamEthernet RJ45 port ( nice to have)WiFi and BluetoothUSB – 4x USB 3.0 ports, 1x USB Type-C portBattery – 6,000 mAh good for about 5 hours ()Weight – 2.2kg

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 06:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 15, 2022, 10:56:17 amYeah, the processor itself doesn't seem very impressive. Basically something you'd find on a cheapish SBC.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 10:39:56 pm
content: The chassis looks interesting, and well designed.The electronic not so much, at least the Power-managment needs to be improved.But, it's the firstRussian SoC, that's the impressive news

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 10:54:59 pm
content: Would be more impressive if the SoC was not ARM-based.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 11:20:40 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 15, 2022, 10:54:59 pmThey do obviously have their Elbrus SoCs too. I have an account on one:Code:brucehoult@sumireko:~$ uname -aLinux sumireko 5.4.0-5.4-e8c2 #1 SMP Sun Jul 31 04:56:53 MSK 2022 e2k E8C2 Elbrus-MCST GNU/Linuxbrucehoult@sumireko:~$ head /proc/cpuinfoprocessor: 0vendor_id: Elbrus-MCSTcpu family: 5model: 9model name: E8C2revision: 2cpu MHz: 1550bogomips: 3100.00brucehoult@sumireko:~$ grep processor /proc/cpuinfoprocessor: 0processor: 1processor: 2processor: 3processor: 4processor: 5processor: 6processor: 7brucehoult@sumireko:~$AMA

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 02:21:05 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 15, 2022, 11:20:40 pmBaikal and Elbrus-based systems are kind of "Soviet" computers not (yet) commercially available because made for Russian government agencies and government-controlled companies.MCST can develop CPUs that are good enough for Open-office workloads, but they are nothing special from the performance and power efficiency points of view; nothing brilliant, the "gain" for them is that such systems may well be deployed by governments that can pay extra to support domestic CPU developers and not use foreign technologies.At some point in the future, MCST's Elbrus processors will get so significantly faster than they are today that Russian companies will bring them to the market, at the moment is more a matter of "Technology independence", which is always something good.Baikal-M1 is ARM-based, not brilliant, but already announced to be available on demand for the market outside Russia, which is the *great news* considering the context!.... In Europe, well ... I don't know, I'm still depressed by the shocking news that, once again, the guys at CERN made the big mistake of all time and turned down IBM donations of POWER10 machines in return of a common sense advertising.So, CERN still mostly uses x86 ....... and also NASA is full of intel and AMD x86 computers (they say better ratio performance/cost ... so they say), while the luckiest ones are American government agencies, who have POWER9-10-11 and AIX for their business, and among them, Guys at CIA are very lucky because they the new POWER11 workstations on their desks, which, off course, was not the kind offered to CERN, neither is the kind you can "import" from the US.That's called "technological supremacy", it's when you are so jealous of your gear that you won't sell it abroad.Japan, China and Taiwan have similar super-jealous-stuff.-Anyway, what would make me happy, in this order- Estonian citizenship (Ania's world is so tempting)- lot ofbelarusian-sodain my fridge (too delicious)- a laptop(1) with MIPS64 or RISC-V, because !YeS!- bonus+=1000 points: with an HHKB-like kb layout- bonus+=100000 points: with an optic link (pleaZe)(1) Elbrus processors are based on a VLIW-like architecture, and there is nothing moreI hatein the world, after x86, thanthe VLIW architectureBaikal-M1 laptop: yes, pleaseElbrus laptop: thanks, but no!

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 08:00:26 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 16, 2022, 02:21:05 amhttps://www.crowdsupply.com/sra-centr8/icepeakitx-elbrus-8cbPrice unknown as yet, but if it's in RISC-V SBC range rather than the ridiculously priced Raptor Talos POWER9 boards then I'll probably get one for my collection.I've run it through my primes benchmark.https://hoult.org/primes.txtWith PGO it's nearly 1.75x faster than a same-GHz Pi 4 (A72), 35% slower than a 3.8 GHz POWER9, 7.5% slower than Graviton2, 1.5% slower than Apple M1 emulating RISC-V in qemu.Without PGO ... it's like an A53.Code size is AWFUL, no matter the optimisation level: 4x larger than current "normal" ISAs (x86_64, arm, riscv) at -O1 and 10x larger with PGO.Code:// 4.868 sec i7 3770 @ 3.9 GHz 240 bytes 19.0 billion clocks// 5.110 sec Blackbird POWER9 Sforza @ 3.8 GHz 380 bytes 19.4 billion clocks// 6.377 sec AWS C6g graviton2 A64 @ 2.5 GHz 276 bytes 15.9 billion clocks// 6.757 sec M1 Mini, qemu-riscv64 in UbuntuVM 216 bytes 23.0 billion clocks// 6.867 sec Elbrus-8SV Raiko 1.55 GHz PGO 2664 bytes 10.6 billion clocks// 12.115 sec Pi4 Cortex A72 @ 1.5 GHz A64 300 bytes 18.2 billion clocks:// 19.500 sec Odroid C2 A53 @ 1.536 GHz A64 276 bytes 30.0 billion clocks// 20.419 sec Elbrus-8SV Raiko 1.55 GHz -O3 1120 bytes 31.7 billion clocks:// 27.196 sec Teensy 4.0 Cortex M7 @ 960 MHz 228 bytes 26.1 billion clocks// 27.480 sec HiFive Unleashed RISCV U54 @ 1.45 GHz 228 bytes 39.8 billion clocks// 28.110 sec Elbrus-8SV Raiko 1.55 GHz 984 bytes 43.6 billion clocks// 30.420 sec Pi3 Cortex A53 @ 1.2 GHz T32 204 bytes 36.5 billion clocks// 36.652 sec Allwinner D1 C906 RV64 @ 1.008 GHz 224 bytes 36.9 billion clocksQuoteSure. although I have my doubts about "get significantly faster".QuoteI have no idea who "Ania" is, but Estonia is very interesting and has done well since 1991, with a political/economic approach I'm very much in favour of. I was surprised how little use English was in the tourist part of Tallinn -- much less than in Denmark, Sweden, Finland. Or St Petersburg and central Moscow, for that matter. Fortunately I can get by in Russian, for tourist purposes.QuoteNever came across it.QuoteSoon! You can get a RISC-V laptop with better than Pentium 3 performance right now in the DevTerm R-01. Pi 3 performance within 6 months, 2x Pi 4 performance (something like late Core2 Quad or early i7) by this time next year, I think.QuoteI'm well aware of the architecture. When I worked in Moscow many of my colleagues were compiler engineers ex MCST. I've now got ssh access to one and have been reading the ISA manual and examining generated code.I'm not a fan of VLIW for general-purpose CPUs. It's bad for exactly the same reasons that early RISC with branch delay slots and sometime no pipeline interlocks was bad, but 10x worse. It can work in very specialised situations where you can have an engineer spend six months hand optimising 100 lines of code. But make any change and you've got to throw all that work away. Plus code is inherently optimised for one particular implementation with one particular execution width and can't scale up and down a performance range.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 10:24:52 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 16, 2022, 08:00:26 amyup, too bad.By exploiting of a kind ofmonthly-Carnetonline for flight tickets with just a couple of fly tickets left by a customer, I went to the United States with nothing but a suitcase with a pair of underpants in it, and some socks, just to keep up appearancesI ordered and paid for mini motherboard and a CPU module some days before my flight, so when arrive to The USE I took a taxi and directly went to the Talos company to pick up my order.Everything was already packaged, no delay added, easy like a piece of cake and fast like taking a McDonald's Mac Drive, and in less than 5 minutes I was again in the taxi that was kindly waiting for taking me back.I fit the precious "cargo" into my suitcase while we were going back to the airport.The driver looked at me strangely, like if he had gangster passenger trying to hide something in his suitcase. I smiled, saying, "it's clean, buddy, don't worry".But when I said that, he threw an eye to the back mirror and he saw nothing but that a foreign with a weird accent moving his underpants, shirts and socks into the suitcase, over the *real* cargo, so he laugh. Probably he didn't understand what I was talking about and thought that my suits were not dirty, like when when you go to take them back from the laundry.Back to airport, I spent more than a couple of hours inside the duty free area, watched a video, met a couple of hostesses, invite them to eat something together, got amazing appealing and interesting information about "free flights" if you date hostess, and then I flight back to Europe.Happy hour, happy ending, and this way you save additional money from customs, because if Raptor Talos is priced, well ... paying duties on ~3000 Euro would makes it even worse.Just ... once back home, you have to buy an heat-sink, a case, a power-supply, a video card, memory sticks, I mean all the rest, a bit annoying because you have to order stuff on Amazon + from other shops, but you save a lot of money.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 10:40:40 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 16, 2022, 08:00:26 amAnia is a nice and pretty Estonian girl, a student of the Tallinn University Of Technology (AKA TalTech).She likes hack-meeting events, which are in English, a big BONUS in EstoniaSo, she also talked about her world with interesting points about technology, economy, etc.Not bad.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 10:59:34 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on August 15, 2022, 10:56:17 amI wonder if you can de-lid the cpu if you strike it with a javelin.There was so much effort put into buying things from the west. If that wasn't available, east Germany, or local, and if everything failed, you resorted buying something made there.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 11:04:17 am
content: QuoteIt's also known as "Bel-Cola" (white can), it was offered during the hack-meeting to celebrate newbyes and the weirdest projects ever. It's likeCokaCola, just light and more delicious.Unfortunately it's only available in Belarus. Nobody knows how it arrived to the hack-meeting in Estonia.And, among the strangest things, I heard about the old Soviet "white" CokaCola.Ania talked about that. Interesting story.American "Coca Cola" is the color of coffee, at some point, during the cold war, there was a diplomatic need to make a bridge between the USA and URSS, so someone offered Coka-Cola, and some Russian important men found it so delicious that asked to have more to bring them home.The handshake attempt was successful! At least, in terms of intentions. There was a serious BIG problem: during Soviet regime they were trying to ban every symbol of American politics, therefore they could not just offer a case of bottles of CokaCola to take away from the embassy.The needed a workaround, enforcing the secret cooperation between USA and URSS to export CokaCola to Russia, and if the CokaCola is a symbol of American politics, Vodka is a symbol of Soviet politics!It looked impossible, then ... someone had a brilliant idea! Let's de-color it!Yeah, let's make CokaCola the same color as the Vodka! Problem solved!And so they did.The Company CokaCola secretly prepared two cases of bottles of "white" CokaCola to let a couple of men to take away from the embassy.What are you drinking, soviet mate? Ummm, ehh ... Vodka! What else?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 11:10:42 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 16, 2022, 10:59:34 amLOLQuote from: tszaboo on August 16, 2022, 10:59:34 amYup, precisely!