Why I do not like fractals on my LCD... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 05:46:47 am
content: Hi,I have a weather station and recently a 'fractal' pattern started topaint itself on the LCD display permanently. It does not go away whenyou press on the display.Have a look:A week ago, it was half its size.Have you seen anything like that?What might be causing this?

author: inse
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 08:55:59 am
content: The invasion of the Langoliers has started…

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 12:40:49 pm
content: Nano tech infection will now proceed to turn the world to grey mush.And you started it!

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 12:46:16 pm
content: Portal to Kang world ?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 12:58:55 pm
content: It looks like a gathering storm to me!I wonder if it is an actual microbial 'game of life' playing out between the backlight and LCD panel (or within?).

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 02:05:16 pm
content: I only want to know if it is infectious... :-)Seriously though, nobody has ever seen something like that on an LCD?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 02:12:34 pm
content: Google for LCD fungus, people are having this problem. It may be actual living mold.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 02:18:06 pm
content: Relative Humidity inside is 50% maximum and no water on the console.Its has to be a digital fungus...

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 02:51:09 pm
content: If the seal is broken, stuff may get in.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 02:56:29 pm
content: Indeed, but you cannot have any fungus growth without any waterand their normal rel. hum is 97%

author: Brianf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 06:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on March 03, 2023, 02:56:29 pmSo what's the 'L' in LCD made of?

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 06:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: Brianf on March 03, 2023, 06:05:10 pmNot water. Although some of the surfaces inside an LCD are hydrophyllic, so maybe could adsorb enough water to support fungal growth? Seems unlikely to me if it is in the center and spreading outward unless there is a crack in the glass.This looks like it's probably a reflective LCD, my guess is that it's a problem with the back reflector which is basically a piece of metalized reflective tape stuck to the back glass. If there is a pinhole in the film, it could be delaminating and/or oxidizing and I think it would look like your photo.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 06:43:39 pm
content: I've got a HP-15C calculator that has this same type of pixel-rot. It's about 40 years old, and it's been like this for the last ten years or so. If it's getting worse it's happening very slowly. I couldn't tell you exactly why this happens.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 06:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on March 03, 2023, 06:38:12 pmNope it happens inside of display itself, not reflector. Some sort of delamination.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 06:58:00 pm
content: I've seen this before, I could be remembering incorrectly but it seems like I saw someone have success by baking the display. I suspect it is some kind of crystallization of the fluid.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 07:01:41 pm
content: Quote from: Brianf on March 03, 2023, 06:05:10 pm4′-Pentyl-4-biphenylcarbonitrileI've seen a very similar effect in old mirrors left to the elements . The reflective backing starts to separate from the glass because of moisture . Admittedly this is not a mirror, but a defect doesn't need to be noticeable to the naked eye to become a problem. The liquid may have started to migrate through a small pin hole defect making contact to the polarizer.Do the defects change shape or move about when a pressure is applied . Try lightly pressing on the surface with a tooth pick to see what happens . I doubt the display can be fixed so why not try experimenting.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 07:09:04 pm
content: Here's a youtube video where someone shows how to fix this. I've not tried this myself.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 07:30:28 am
content: No, it does not move when you press on it.Its funny because when I was going to start this thread,the first title that came to mind was 'LCD Cancer'... but Idid not want to scare people. :-)Thanks for the video! It does not work though and this LCD is not a dot matrixif that has anything to do with the problem.24 hours later it goes thermonuclear!Old points remain unchanged and new are added by the hour, always connected to a previous one.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 08:58:47 am
content: Quote from: hgg on March 04, 2023, 07:30:28 amWelcome to crop circles for LCD's version 1.01As long as it does not look like the face of Jesus you are still sane.What you could do is get a good magnifying glass and see if you can spot anything with that.You can take a picture with your phone or camera by holding the magnifying glass very close to your camera lens, it will act like a macro lens. Have to hold it steady.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 09:10:44 am
content: lol, no Jesus yet.They all look like dots but not in any matrix formation.I can also see a loner in the lower left.I might have a look under the microscope.It is also over the LCD segment.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 09:52:19 am
content: Interesting the way it overlays the active segment (I was hoping that it might reach one) with no colour change. That might imply that it is something under the front polarizing film. It might explain why the rubbing action in the video has some effect, it's not necessarily a pixel display related problem.P.S. I haven't given up on a lifeform yet.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 09:55:30 am
content: Rubbing action here has no effect though.I hope this is not how SARS-CoV-3 starts...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 11:07:49 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 03, 2023, 02:12:34 pmNot guilty.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 11:09:02 am
content: We just found the culprit.Fungus please go away from my LCD! lol

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 12:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on March 04, 2023, 11:09:02 amPlease let us know the answer.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 01:11:46 pm
content: "Fungus" the forum user... Was just joking...

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 01:37:35 pm
content: So "We just found the culprit" was not serious? What was the culprit?Microbial contamination shouldn't be dismissed. That is a significant problem in jet fuel, which has very little water present:https://conidia.com/jet-fuel-contamination/#:~:text=Microorganisms%20found%20in%20aviation%20jet,that%20can%20accelerate%20metal%20corrosionhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6029836/

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 01:41:57 pm
content: Microbes need food. What are they eating in there?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 02:04:17 pm
content: Anything with carbon and an electron acceptor (required for energy). The electron acceptor can be an organic molecule, which is often called fermentation, or an inorganic molecule/atom. When the latter is oxygen, what is called aerobic. It is what humans do.Of course, some other elements are needed, like nitrogen. Jwillis gave one example:4′-Pentyl-4-biphenylcarbonitrile

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 02:16:58 pm
content: Please do not tell me that I have a petri dish...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 09:15:22 pm
content: Hey, ...is that a DAVIS Inst. ?(I wrote code went in the Davis Instruments, they had similar looking compass circle.)The pattern is also visible all through that LCD, although not pronounced distinctly.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 04:05:02 am
content: Spot on!Its a Davis Vantage Pro2. It has been working flawlessly for years.This is the second unit though. The first one stopped working givinga PLL could not lock error or something similar. I never found out thecause.Which part did you code?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 04:23:12 am
content: Definitely looks like some sort of bacterial culture.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 04:29:58 am
content: It does, but I think is very improbable.There is no water or some kind of food in there.I've just sent an email to Davis as well to ask them if they had seen anything likethis on other customer consoles.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 04:53:30 am
content: I would just use one of these with a 0-24 v inputhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/363960461904and put these for minutes and secondshttps://www.ebay.com/itm/192149233125I think they make the mechanism overcomplicated for most clocks

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 09:24:39 am
content: Huh?

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 05:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on March 04, 2023, 09:10:44 amLooks like a sea horse.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 05:59:23 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on March 05, 2023, 04:29:58 amI think you underestimate what some microorganisms can survive or even multiply in. As two examples, look up Deinococcus radiodurans and chemolithotrophs. Again, organisms living in jet fuel do no have much water available.As for your second approach, I agree. You don't have many options:1) Live with it2) Try to get a replacement screen3) Trash it4) If #2 or 3, then investigate what it is. A decent microscope might reveal whether the defective areas are shaped like pixels or more amorphous. Pixel ("point" ) defects are well known. If amorphous, any microbiology lab could help identify whether bacteria, fungi, or something else. Something else might include a change in form from liquid crystals to solid crystals.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2023, 08:18:14 pm
content: It's worth contacting Davis, they're an American company, they've made these consoles for many years now and they're not cheap. IMHO this is the sort of failure that should never occur no matter how old it is. I have the same console and the display is fine on mine.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 09:45:25 am
content: How many years did you have the console?No answer from Davis this time and they always replied previously...The LCD conquering continues non stop. Previously there was a tiny dot on the bottomand now there is a new colony.Each dot once established does not change at all, very strange.Here is also a photo lit from the front with the backlight off.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 03:09:57 pm
content: It's a fungus. The same sort of fungus plaques lenses and optical surfaces of all kinds. Not really unusual, but no greatly appreciated either.With lenses and mirrors it can be usually be cleaned off before any real damage is done, but sometimes it's consuming the "glue" between layers. These cases (an this is probably one) are usually untreatable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 02:38:04 am
content: I remember seeing people fixing similar looking symptoms by baking the display I think, and another by massaging the affected area with pressure. If the display is otherwise unusable it's worth trying.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 03:58:00 am
content: I might try heating it locally and see what happens.Lets hope it its not planning to draw a world map...Still no reply from Davis.They are too busy with their new IoT console.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 04:10:17 am
content: Quote from: hgg on March 04, 2023, 01:41:57 pmWhat did they eat on the coated prism surface of my microscope ?

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 04:12:51 am
content: Are you using it (kept it) in a humid environment or looking at biological samples?Your microbes are more civilized..

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 05:09:00 am
content: This thread is falling apart.Look uphttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_fungus

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 05:34:17 am
content: "The fungus thrives at temperatures of 10C to 35C and relative humidity of 70% or more"It never goes above 50%.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 06:33:23 am
content: Quote from: hgg on March 08, 2023, 05:34:17 amOkay then. it must be aliens.Oh, wait. How did you determine the humidity in the LCD?Meh.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 06:45:11 am
content: Maybe the inside humidity monitor helped a bit...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 12:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: karpouzi9 on March 08, 2023, 02:02:10 amIt's a message from somebody trapped in a parallel universe.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 05:43:57 am
content: Davis replied and told me that I might have a faulty segment, which I don't.Another technician said that he had seen that before, but never growing at this rate.It keeps growing by the day.But if you look at the display at a certain angle with a light source at the other side,you can see that the thingy is immediately underneath the top glass and not onthe LCD.So the fungus (or alien life form..) assumption might hold some water.Greek Helios loves to destroy fungi, bacteria and viruses,so I think I will leave the LCD outside under the sun for a few hoursand see if the growth stops.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 05:57:01 am
content: That does look to me like it's on the surface, either the surface of the display or between the glass and upper polarizer rather than between the glass layers.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 06:00:50 am
content: It is under the glass but over the segments.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 08:14:29 am
content: @hggBright sunlight (UVC) can damage LCD screens. Hence, many will have glass designed to block UVC. (https://jnsglass.com/uv-filters-glass-filters-for-blocking-or-passing-uv/) Even non-UV blocking glass has very poor transmission below 300 nm or so. Germicidal wavelength is generally said to be 265 nm and below. Moreover, yeasts generally are more resistant to UVC than bacteria and viruses due to their cell walls, genetics, and size.Before I did that, which could cause the screen to fail completely, I would look at it under a decent microscope. You'll probably need to rig up good reflective light as you have done for your pictures.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 09:09:12 am
content: You are right but I don't have a lot of options. I think UV will pass through even if it is not a lot.Temperature also plays a role. Above 40C, all the little critters will have a very hard time,that is why we have a fever.I will try and see.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2023, 03:54:09 pm
content: Take it apart and if you can get to teh surface it's on, try to clean it off.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 05:07:31 pm
content: Maybe there is some protective plastic sheet on top of the display? That would not be uncommon - and a great place to keep some humidity...

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 05:46:37 pm
content: JFC, what a saga!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 09:41:32 pm
content: I've never taken my console apart, are you sure the display doesn't have a protective lens over it?If not that, it could be between the glass of the display and the top polarizer film, which is replacable.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 09:57:01 pm
content: Perhaps worth trying to freeze the device (down to the minimum spec'd temperature) for a few days and then check if the contamination stopped growing ?

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2023, 11:28:25 pm
content: JUst ot add I've seen something similar on several Epson 240x64 panels from the early 90's. They were NOS but kept in storage and reasonable temperature/humidity.On a similar but different note: A couple of early OLED graphic panels I had from ~2008 have both gone completely milky - apparently that is due to moisture ingress and was inevitable with the early ones.