Ebay is getting worse - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 07:18:47 am
content: I received a defective unit, I need to pay for shipping to return it and get my money, sucks !I cannot give negative feedback immediatelly, I need to wait seven days, really !I sold an item, the buyer didn't pay, on the monthly fee they still charge for that, sucking even more.What a crap system, unfortunatelly they are dominating the market well... a lot of people still uses them.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 07:56:18 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 10, 2015, 07:50:30 amHo, hold your horses... Whether the seller has the pay for the return shipment depends on local legislation which might vary in this regard between EU countries.It is not unheard of that the seller is only required to pay for the return shipment if the returned good exceeds a certain value...

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:15:26 am
content: Doesnt paypal offer $45 for return shipping these days? I assume paypal since you mention ebay.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:21:24 am
content: I get a mixed experience. Selling is much more painful than buying.Sold a Lumia phone a week ago Friday. Said they'd pay for it on Monday as they couldnt transfer the cash until then. Fair enough. Monday came, nothing. Poked them on Tuesday. Was told yesterday that it wasn't the one his daughter wanted and he didn't want to pay for it any more. Negative feedback and seller fees claim raised.I wouldn't mind but this its the third time ice tried to sell this phone.However the postman mauled my nice Silvine 5mm squared exercise books and the company sent another 5 out next day no problems.You win some and you lose some.Human nature is more of a problem then eBay as a whole.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:40:09 am
content: I have only really ever had issues as a buyer from German sellers believe it or not, namely just plain old ignoring your emails saying it doesn't work!I find the most accommodating, once you get past the language barrier are the Chinese, although it takes 3 - 6 weeks for the items to arrive if they arrive damaged or not at all, they usually ask for a photo over the most obscure things?! But always in my experience rectify the issue at their cost almost immediately, you just have to wait for it another 3 - 6 weeks! Bloody Hong Kong post.UK sellers are hit or miss, I have had one item from Poland and it worked out fine.The thing with Chinese sellers, even though they might have thousands if not more positive feedback responses, one negative hurts them and their shop, to the point where they literally beg you not to leave negative feedback.To be honest, I have never left negative feedback for any Chinese seller and will always give a chance for people to redeem themselves as it were, but I guess some people are trigger happy and that is what they worry about.So if you ever have an issue with a Chinese seller, threaten them with negative feedback (don't actually leave it unless you really have to) and 99% of the time they will sort it out, but as I say, most cases you don't need to threaten, they are quite reasonable sellers and actually seem to care what you think of them and their shops! Novel eh!

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 11:58:35 am
content: Quote from: Wilksey on April 10, 2015, 10:40:09 amCouldn't agree more. The Chinese are great to deal with.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 12:06:21 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on April 10, 2015, 07:18:47 amThe return conditions are stated right below the bid/buy-it-now button. Did you read them? If so, did you agree to them by purchasing the item but then didn't want to abide by them when they became relevant?QuoteNegative for what? If the seller is refusing to take something back, sure. If it's because you were unhappy with the terms you agreed to, or because luck dealt you a defective unit, it hardly seems fair.QuoteeBay credits sellers for final value fees on unpaid items. Simply file an unpaid item case and you will be credited. You can also re-list the item for free.QuoteI agree it is crap, but IMO it's mostly due to unreasonable buyers. Such as... agreeing to a return policy and then being upset that they are expected to abide by that agreement and leaving a negative for being expected to live up to their agreement.I'm not saying it's necessarily the case in your situation, but it sure seems like you're not owning it.

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:04:41 pm
content: I had the most crappy thing on ebay with ebay itself. I bought an 50$ item from usa. The seller was using the ebay global shipping program, so he handed the item over to ebay.I made two mistakes:- i've been logged on into ebay usa instead of ebay germany (so the ebay germany support was not responsible afterwards)- i didn't check my send to address in ebay before i hit the direct-buy buttom.So my "packstation" address was associated with this shipment. (More information about packstations:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PackstationPackstation works fine even for international shipments if the item is shipped via DHL. As i did not know, what mail service will be used by ebay global shipping i directly mailed via ebay to the seller to send it to my "normal" address. He read my mail to late, so the item was shipped by Hermes pacel service. I could track the item up to my town... tried to contact hermes - but they did not react for two days then the item was sent back from Germany to the US ("unknown address").After two weeks i got an email from ebay global shipping telling me to send my correct address otherwise the item will be destroyed (!) after 7 days. I sent it.Two weeks later i asked for information about the shipment. They told me that the item was still under possession of the mail service and they do not get any feedback.I asked Hermes - they told me that the item had been to ebay sent back because my address was wrong (arghh..) This was referring to the first shipment...so i went back to ebay, asking for further inquiry. After several emails where i had to explain what happend and that they should contact hermes to get the item sent to me... they closed the whole correspondence with me, telling me that i ebay is not responsible for items not delivered due to a wrong address and they will refuse any further contact to me in this case.This took 2 months... so getting money back via paypal guarantees was also impossible.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 10, 2015, 01:04:11 pmNot true. Case in point - here's the first item I found when looking at "power supply"http://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-5A-110V-Precision-Variable-DC-Power-Supply-Digital-Adjustable-Lab-w-clip-New-/171607017649?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27f49348b1It's very clear right at the top -> "30 days money back, buyer pays return shipping". As for the eBay guarantee, it says "Get the item you ordered or get your money back. Covers your purchase price and original shipping.".It doesn't say or even imply that return shipping is covered - in fact, it specifically says the buyer pays return shipping.QuoteFor items purchased from a business, yes. For items purchased from an individual, no. But it only applies to intra-UK transactions. If someone in the UK buys something from someone in the USA, for example, it doesn't apply.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 01:33:08 pm
content: Quote from: schopi68 on April 10, 2015, 01:04:41 pmThe Global shipping program is a total mess.They sold it to sellers as solving all the problems of international shipping, and they sold it to buyers on the same basis. I don't know anyone who likes it - it's expensive, slow, makes for unhappy buyers and sellers and doesn't even reliably deliver. They also make it *really* difficult to know how you can opt out of it.I just think it's rather amusing that for as harsh and strict as eBay is to sellers (unless you sell thousands of items a month, you are allowed exactly TWO 1 or 2 star ratings per *year* or you lose your discount) - yet eBay treats buyers infinitely worse than they demand their own sellers treat buyers. The hypocrisy is palpable!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 02:36:22 am
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on April 10, 2015, 07:18:47 amActually, eBay does not dominate, not even close!"Alibaba is more valuable than Amazon and eBay combined..."http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2014/09/22/alibaba-vs-amazon-who-will-win-the-global-e-commerce-war/"Alibaba has more sales than Amazon and eBay combined..."http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/7/5690596/meet-alibaba-the-ecommerce-giant-with-more-sales-than-amazon-and-ebay"10 Reasons Why Alibaba Blows Away Amazon And EBay..."http://www.forbes.com/sites/walterloeb/2014/04/11/10-reasons-why-alibaba-is-a-worldwide-leader-in-e-commerce/http://www.forbes.com/sites/walterloeb/2014/04/11/10-reasons-why-alibaba-is-a-worldwide-leader-in-e-commerce/

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 03:28:54 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 10, 2015, 01:33:08 pmCan't agree more, the weakest link in the ebay-paypal system are ebay and paypal themselves, and they are also the most protective of their own interests. Nobody seems to have a clue that the whole ebay thing, at the end, is funded by the buyer paying their hard cash buying things.The best thing that had happened to me of my ebay buying experiences is ebay and paypal screwed me after the seller screwed me on some fake laser diodes, and forced me onto the Taobao eco system. It was very painful at the beginning. But the saving, the range of products, etc have overcompensated for the pain many more time. On taobao, due to too many clever-by-half sellers, they have a much better system. All credible sellers are aiming for perfect score for every transaction, as the guy with top credit rating can sell in sginficantly much more volume and also at a slightly higher price.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 09:29:56 am
content: I've also been confused by all the different policies and laws, which change often. I have given up with ebay auctions, they are a waste of time. Ebay support are a chocolate teapot, there are lots of impressive sounding guarantees but I have never got a penny back from ebay even if the item was never sent or it is obviously not as described.Quote from: mojo-chan on April 11, 2015, 08:13:33 amSadly, that is no longer true. It was true under the Distance Selling Regulations, but these have been superseded by Consumer Contracts regulations, in which it is possible for the seller to specify that the buyer should pay for return postage even if faulty.http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 09:42:53 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on April 11, 2015, 09:29:56 amAt the bottom of the page you quote it says:"Any terms and conditions that say you must cover the cost of returning an item wouldn’t apply where the goods being returned are faulty."

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 10:44:54 am
content: QuoteTough to blame anybody for that,QuoteIt is precisely because of that, ebay is incredibly protective of buyers. They understand that as long as they have the buyers, (professional) sellers will be there and transactions will take place and ebay will be fine.That's in no small part driven by the large number of Chinese sellers willing to put up with services like that. It would be interesting to see how / if this changes when alibaba goes into this market.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 12:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 10, 2015, 12:06:21 pmHere in the EU consumer law is clear and is very fair. If you return an item because you were unhappy with it or the terms you agree to but it is was not defective, then you have to pay for the return postage, as it's not fair the supplier should be out of pocket. On the other hand, if you were dealt a defective unit, then the seller has to pay return postage, since it's the voided the contract by supplying you with defective goods, whether it was intentional or not and it's not fair that the consumer should be out of pocket.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 04:55:33 pm
content: There are some exemptions such as software:QuoteThat could cause problems though as quite often you're not allowed to see the end user licence agreement for software, until after you've opened the box and put the DVD in your PC. What happens if you don't agree with the licence for whatever reason? Can you return it. You should be able to, unless the terms and conditions of the licence agreement were made clear to you before you broke the seal, otherwise it's not fair to the consumer.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 06:10:20 pm
content: It's pretty easy to get the disk out without breaking the seal.Also EULA isn't necessarily enforceable. Bought a faulty XP Pro CD years ago and took it back to the retailer. Retailer told me to impolitely go away. So I phoned my card company who after consulting their legal guys suggested they were being dicks and there was no legal ground for what they were doing so they just did a charge back.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 06:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 11, 2015, 06:10:20 pmIn that case it had nothing to do with the EULA. The clause in the consumer contracts regulations stating you can't return software, only applies if it's because you changed your mind (no doubt this is an anti-piracy measure) not if it's faulty. In your case, the CD was damaged so they were legally obliged to accept a return, irrespective of their policy.What if the disc wasn't damaged but the EULA contained something you couldn't agree to so refused to install it?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 08:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 11, 2015, 06:42:22 pmGarbled... seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows#License_refund_policy

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 01:21:16 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 10, 2015, 12:06:21 pmLooks like you work for them or love them.I had to pay for the shipment back because you need to select a reason to return the item.I selected not the right size, because I received an item that was not the right size it was shorter, I continued with the process and just later you realize that I needed to pay for shipment, you are not able to go back and select another option you are stuck with your first choice and trust me there is nothing preventing you that if you select the option I did you will pay for shipment.I called ebay and the stupid representative said there is nothing they or I can do and that I need to pay for shipment because I selected that option and it cannot be changed.I contaced the buyer and he said exactly the same, since I selected that option I have to pay shipment.Of course I will give negative feedback to the seller because they sent a defective unit, if you are a seller make sure your item is correct or make everything possible to fix the situation, in my case I still think they need to pay for the shipping back.David.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 01:23:48 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 11, 2015, 03:14:49 amYes on that one, my point here is thatthey have to charge you when you receive the payment, not when you sell it.David.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 01:43:27 am
content: I don't use ebay that much (maybe 200 purchases?) but I'm very much a buyer and in all the years I've been using it I think I've only been stung once... for about £25.Ironically, it was from a seller I know from years ago who is a ham radio parts seller.Apart from this I've had some amazing bargains on ebay so I still think it's great. Not sure I'd want to try selling stuff on there though...

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 02:10:56 pm
content: just today I had to learn that eBay Customer Service and also ebay protection is just disastrous.here in short what happend:- paid via paypal (incl. shipping and "No additional import charges at delivery!") for goods I never received- informed the seller that he send me the wrong item- never got an answer- had to wait until I could open a ebay problem case- gave ebay all infomation I had and found out myself- never got a anwser to what I wrote them, but stupid reponses which showed they did not even read the information I gave them- wrote several mails to clarify and asked again for help- ebay never answered- finally without doing anything to solve the problem, ebay closed the caseFor me that is really beyond belief experience I do not want anyone to make, so better avoid ebay.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 02:38:04 pm
content: QuoteThat's where you went wrong: you are saying you ordered the wrong size, so therefore it's your fault and you pay return shipping.What you should have said is it was not as described - that is, the description was for size A and the vendor sent size B. That's the vendor's fault and you thedon'tpay return shipping.Once you've done that, it's pretty much undoable, so complaining about it after the fact wouldn't get you anywhere.I've been on Ebay for a few years and generally had a decent time. I've ordered the wrong stuff, paid stupid money, the usual buyer cockups. For those I've taken the hit. OTOH, I've had some bad buying experiences butalwayshad it resolved satisfactorily. That include a huge piece of test equipment that cost $90 to ship from the States, came more damaged than the vendor described, and I got return shipping refunded on that.I agree that finding the info or processes necessary to have a satisfactory conclusion can be problematic, but generally you can do it if you try. Certainly easier than, say, getting PCWorld to refund DOA kit.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 04:47:20 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 14, 2015, 02:38:04 pmAnd that is the reason for my complain buddy, why the hell you cannot change an option that you selected by mistake or by lack of clarity or information.David.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 06:57:23 am
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on April 12, 2015, 01:23:48 amThat sucks, however I think this is done in such a way to deal with payment methods other than paypal.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 07:02:28 am
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on April 15, 2015, 04:47:20 amBecause too many will go back and try some different option to get return shipping refund.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 07:06:54 am
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on April 15, 2015, 04:47:20 amIt is utterly mad that they present you with a confusing range of options, some of which appear to be what you need but aren't, then providenoway for you to be able to talk to a human and say "this is what happened, how do we fix it?" and get a sensible answer.If the wrong item turns up then file Item Not As Described, not Item Not Received - that's for when nothing turns up (hence the fact that you have to allow reasonable time for postal delays before claiming).If the wrong size or variant turns up and it isn't your mistake then file Not As DescribedQuote from: wraper on April 15, 2015, 07:02:28 amThat could pretty much be addressed by having to phone ebay to get it sorted.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 08:31:05 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 15, 2015, 07:46:19 amAnd get permanent ban from Paypal buyer protection AFAIK.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 08:36:38 am
content: Yes. However that doesn't ban you from chargebacking them again

author: Coliban
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 08:47:34 am
content: QuoteI would love to buy from alibaba, but the do not take paypal and i dont wont to mail my credit-card-number

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 10:17:17 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 15, 2015, 09:32:37 amForget it.You start with the FOS (Financial Ombudsman) who will tell you to go back to the merchant and argue with them on paper. Paypal never respond. After 28 days, you contact them again and they take your details. Then about 30-100 days later they will get back to you and say that it's responsibility of the FCA as they aren't registered merchants in the UK. FCA don't care and go "why the hell have you sent this to us?".Just charge back again. The card company doesn't hand over the cash to the merchant or vendor right away so it sits in limbo for a bit first. That's your insurance. The card company is effectively an escrow service.As a buyer, until you have something working and satisfactory in your hands, it's someone else's problemAs a seller, it's a minefield, which is why I stopped selling stuff, buy only what I need and expect that the item I bought is worth nothing. To offfset that a bit I tend to only buy second hand stuff so the pain is less

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 12:06:55 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on April 12, 2015, 01:23:48 amYou do realize that they have no means to know that unless Paypal was used to pay for the item? Even that may change, as they were considering spinning Paypal off again into a separate business.I had 2 items that the buyers didn't pay for, the correct way to proceed is to start the "item not paid" procedure. You open the dispute, have to wait a few days (I think 3-4 days is the minimum) and if the buyer still doesn't pay, you close the dispute and eBay refunds you all the fees. If you don't close the dispute yourself, I think eBay will do it for you after a month or so. Each time that I had to go through this it was a fairly painless procedure.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 03:07:29 pm
content: Quote from: Coliban on April 15, 2015, 08:47:34 amOn AliExpress, you don't mail it, you just enter it on the site - the same as PayPal.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 07:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 11, 2015, 08:13:33 amWho cares what the UK rules are? The OP is in the USA. Not to mention you said "The problem is that eBay goes out of its way to make users ignore the return policy" which is patently false considering the return policy is stated right up there with the other terms of sale.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 07:57:58 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 11, 2015, 12:12:48 pmIf you are talking about a transaction within the EU, sure... but from one EU party to a non-EU party it doesn't apply. And in this case, the OP is in the USA so it also doesn't apply.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 08:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on April 12, 2015, 01:21:16 amI don't work for them, I just have the maturity to read what I am agreeing to before I agree to it, and if I agreed to something without reading or understanding it, I accept it as my own fault and suck it up. Not everyone does that, so you get stuff like this:"Of course I will give negative feedback to the seller because they sent a defective unit, if you are a seller make sure your item is correct or make everything possible to fix the situation, in my case I still think they need to pay for the shipping back."If the seller has any kind of experience, they'll be able to get your negative deleted anyway, so it's not that big a deal - and if he's smart he will add you to the "blocked seller" lists that sellers circulate. In either case, doesn't affect me, I am not the seller in question - just deal with a lot of eBay whiners and know the routine.

author: johnlsenchak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 08:06:49 pm
content: The problem with Ebay is that to many sellers want to much money for used merchandise.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 01:06:47 am
content: Quote from: janoc on April 15, 2015, 12:06:55 pmI didn't know that.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 01:12:42 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 15, 2015, 08:01:32 pmYou are on the seller side and maybe you are reflecting your bad experiences here, the true is that Ebay is getting worse.I'm on the buyer side and my opinion is that the sellers must know what they are selling and provide a good service, some seller don't understand that we buyers make business for them.I worked for a company that was the global leader, suddenly we stopped to listen to the customers and now that company is history.David.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 01:19:24 am
content: Tell me where it gives you clear explanation about why do you want to return the item.....And trust me, after you select any option, there is no way to go back and change it.... contacting Ebay by phone.. same sh!t

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 02:08:09 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 15, 2015, 08:01:32 pmThat is why we are all fu$%^ed up.The seller sends a defective unit, the buyer has to pay shipping for return, if the buyer complains or give negative feedback we are going to block you because you evil..... seriously ?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 03:37:36 am
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on April 16, 2015, 02:08:09 amI don't know what you bought, but "wrong size" implies it was clothing. I am sure eBay has a separate policy for clothing, but presumably non-fitting clothing does not qualify for free return shipping. But I also know that defective products do not qualify for free return shipping in general on eBay.On the one hand, it seems obvious that a defective item should cause return shipping to be paid by the seller. But each store is different. Amazon will pay return shipping if an item is defective, but not if the item isn't suitable for your needs. It depends on the store. eBay does nothing to help sellers - eBay actively screws sellers. And to sell on eBay, you pretty much have to be the low priced vendor, or you sell nothing.Most sellers are making razor thin margins on eBay goods - and one of the *only* ways you can make that work is to contain your costs. That means you follow the eBay policy to a "T", and your bottom line is aided by knowing you will not be paying return shipping on stuff you sell.That's just what happens when you buy based on price alone - and as much as buyers likely feel they shouldn't have to pay return shipping - well, Walmart doesn't cut you a check for the cost of your gas and time to return an item to the store.. it's not really any different.I always check the return policy of sellers and I never buy anything that is non returnable. If the shipping cost is a major component of the item price, then the item is low enough value not to worry about. If the shipping cost is a fraction of the item cost - then it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. You can print a USPS tag online and leave it in your mailbox - you don't need to take a trip to the post office or UPS.

author: Quark-elec
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 01:12:03 pm
content: oh, the policy is terrible for seller on ebay.

author: FlevasGR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2015, 05:34:37 pm
content: Quote from: smjcuk on April 10, 2015, 11:58:35 amThat's true. I got a defective multimeter which i had to give back in order to get a refund however the Chinese guy let me keep it and he also send me an otherone. If you talk with them they will find a way to make things right