Green power, ecology, sustainability and such - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 11:45:29 pm
content: I noticed Dave is often irritated, when some companies claim that they/their product are "green, sustainable, ecological, etc" while in reality, it is not even close to that.But what about point, that current economical model and as result design of products are made that way, that most of consumer grade devices are supposed to work 1-2 years, and then, they should be thrown in garbage, because they made that way, that they fail early and not repairable.Some of my thoughts:1)Battery choice for "green energy" at home. Everybody is(was) using lead-acid batteries, and recent trend is lithium batteries. Everybody knows, how harmful is lead for environment, but lithium mines and extraction process are devastating for environment as well (but they are not in your backyard, as recycling lead acid batteries).What about well known and trivial NiFe battery, sure they have negative downsides (self-discharge, but for daily cycling it might be not a big issue), low energy density and high cost, but they last 30-50 years, don't explode, and much more environmental friendly. Nickel and Iron less scarce than lithium and lead, potassium hydroxide is something very common as well.2)Products design. A lot of products just lack things that can increase longevity of device. Usually it is 3 points:a)Reliability: it is very profitable for manufacturer to make device that last just 1-3 years in average, and then consumer have to buy new one. I've seen "supposed to be outdoor" wireless devices from mikrotik, that have non-sealed PCB, without any sign of conformal coating, that ends in corrosion of reset switch and some IC's that are close to air vents in enclosure. They don't last long, but they are dirt cheap, yes.b)Upgradeability/modularity. I remember times, when you can buy 386DX in 1985, and then you can still upgrade PC to Cx486DRx2 at 1994. Right now socket on motherboard last less than a year, just to drive sales of new chipsets. How much electronic waste such approach generate?c)Repairability. Some laptops recently have ram/storage soldered on board, just to get them to pointless few mm thinner. So if some new software require just more ram or you ran out of storage, you have no choice than buying new laptop. Same about phones with non-removable batteries, if battery is gone, you throw phone (which might be still in perfect shape), or take risk of using bad quality aftermarket battery (and vendors often do their best with DRM-locked battery controllers to screw aftermarket batteries).My point, that maybe government should tax products and manufacturers based on their products longevity, so manufacturers will be held responsible, if they generate excessive amount of electronic waste, and waste scarce natural resources. Device that last long and can be reused should be cheaper, than poorly designed device that last a bit and then you throw it.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 12:31:53 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 21, 2016, 12:06:05 amMy point is about powerwall-like products. Sure for cars it is a must to have best weight vs energy density ratio batteries.Quote from: blueskull on November 21, 2016, 12:06:05 amMaybe if governments become concerned about cheapo unreliable stuff and tax importers for bad products, choice will be quite different. But governments and regulations of market often bad idea, maybe other ideas?I believe problem lays in short-sighted choice of consumers, this days they just check general specs (which often total marketing bs) and price tag, nothing else.Quote from: blueskull on November 21, 2016, 12:06:05 amJust because they have no real responsibility/costs for electronic waste they generate by such approach. They can always point that it is customer fault and it is his zone of responsibility, after he bought device.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 06:05:59 am
content: Just to stick to topic of suggestions, what community thinks if Dave can give us recommendations how to find out bad device that wont last long , and also how to design device that will last long as possible?I am not sure, if it is possible to extend something like this article, where discussed "planned obsolescence" -http://listverse.com/2013/04/02/10-ways-products-are-designed-to-fail/Maybe this subject was already covered in previous blog posts?P.S. As example, forementioned Mikrotik SXT rust (i faced exactly same issue with their product):

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 07:03:07 am
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on November 20, 2016, 11:45:29 pmOn the other hand, nickel mining is right up there with other open-cut and underground mineral mining for direct environmental impact, and the extraction and refining process produces huge amounts of difficult to deal with waste. By comparison, most lithium is "mined" from underground water (much of which can be returned after extraction) or clay pans, and is relatively easy & clean to extract & refine.And as you mention, NiFe cells have much lower energy density & charge/discharge rates than Li cells. Great for off-line storage (if you can spare the space) or small loads (if you can't); not so good for anything else.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 07:40:03 am
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on November 21, 2016, 07:03:07 amThats good point. I thought lithium mining are more harmful for environment, but seems it is opposite. Thanks for the info.Still, batteries last much more (batteryuniversity website claim newer batteries can lasst over 50 years!), and there is old setups that is 80+ years old and still working. I dont really get comfortable with idea of lithium/lead batteries who are lasting just few years, and easy to fail.And another thing, many sources claim that NiFe battery is much more "recycleable" than lithium ones and can be treated as scrap metal.Sure with their low weight efficiency they are good only for basement installation only.