Is there an off the shelf generic tool battery - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 08:59:42 am
content: We are looking to develop our next machine and people are not quite happy with the battery setup. This is a 100Wh lithium battery at about 12V although we do need 24+V a converter is fine.It would be nice to find a battery similar in concept to the ones used in drills and similar hand held tools. People do do this but we'd need to seek permission etc with the manufacturer and it's a difficult political issue with our parent company that already has deals with certain tool makers etc. So it would be easier to find something completely different.It's a bit like that Nokia 3310 battery that lives on long after the phone in many other products. Is there something similar but larger out there?

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 09:07:14 am
content: That is a nice idea, i am curious about it too.When it comes to standardized lithium battery packs the closest i know is one of those 12V lead acid brick clones. They copy the form factor of the classic 7Ah 18Ah etc... lead acid packs. They also have 2 spade/screw/lug terminals like a lead acid, but they have a BMS board inside to manage the series cells.Such a battery is not as simple for the user to change tho, also has the potential of swapping polarity by accident, can't just slot onto a charger...etc So it would indeed be neat if they made something like power tool battery packs.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 09:16:40 am
content: Tryhttps://www.rrc-ps.com/I have seen these in fluke and duux and some other pro flashlights.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 09:52:29 am
content: A significant question is whether you need the sort of high output current that a power tool battery can provide - that would limit your choices somewhat as most generic batteries aren't aimed at that sort of duty.Not sure why you'd need the permission of a manufacturer to make your product accept their batteries, unless they have a patent on the attachment method.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 11:21:55 am
content: Generally you can get "aftermarket" battery packs for power tools from the more well known suppliers, which are almost identical, just slightly different. Things like Makita 18V packs have a large clone market, mostly because of the price of the OEM part, and there are a few tool manufacturers who sort of standardised on older battery mounts, copying either Bosch, Dewalt, Makita or Milwaukee batteries, and making an entire range around them.Makita 18V packs are common, and you find 3D models for the sockets available for use, plus plenty of suppliers of the battery packs, and also the sockets as well, so you simply clip in the battery. they lack some of the features, like perhaps a voltage monitor in the tool, but all generally include at least some rudimentary BMS in the packs. Just look for your local battery operated tools at the large suppliers, and look for the generic packs for them, which will be a start as to the one you choose.For others the Sony battery system has many clones, that all interface with the cameras and such, and the same for Canon as well, Dave has done a video or three about his studio lighting, and repairing the battery systems on them as well.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 11:35:19 am
content: This was asked before, the answer is no, some brands do licence theirs across toolmakers so Bosch for instance allow some garden tool manufacturers to use their ALL18V battery series design, but they are the only manufacturer of the batteries and they do not cross licence the battery to competitors (so no other manufacturers of drills use their batteries for example...)To resolve this, I think it requires intervention from EU... Could honestly see it in the next decade given USB-C is standardised for mobile phones, there's no need to have anything other than one or two different types of battery connector (high power/high voltage variant perhaps) and then allow many companies to make batteries to those standards.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 06:38:28 pm
content: We are not using power tool batteries, it's internal politics within the group that spans the world, so some one will always be pissed off or worried some one else will be pissed off.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 09:34:52 pm
content: Use Lidl X-Team ones, then nobody will be pissed off (or maybe everyone). Everyone likes a bargain!

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 12:32:12 am
content: A possible option would be to avoid standardising the battery at all, just standardise the connector from it and what voltage and approximate amp-hours the batetry should have. So a user could supply their own battery and just fit on the proper connector (a common type, rated for whatevr level fo currents your machine needs) to plug it in to your machine. If the default battery then comes within an outer casing a fair bit bigger than the dimensions of a typical battery with the desired voltage and amp-hours, then users needing to substitute in different batteries could 3d print* a casing with the same outer size as your "battery cartridge", but with an internal layout suited to their own choice of cells which fit within the shell (that's why you oversize the cartridge, so it is trivial for them to find choices of cells which will fit).*one suspects that whatever the overall machine does, the physical stresses in the area immediately around this battery aren't so huge that a 3d printed item couldn't survive thereIt wouldn't perhaps be relevant for your use case, but think of it like specifying "this is powered from a 5V 2A USB powerbank", anyone can find such a powerbank, or built their own system with the same output specs, and the USB A connector is common. And you then specifying "this powerbank physical goes inside a cartridge of x*y*z cm which slides on to rails in this hole in the machine, x*y*z being big enough most commercial powerbanks would fit within it. You send a CAD file of the x*y*z cartridge with the right shape to fit the rails and a wire hole in the right are for the connector wires to poke out from along with every machine you make, i the user needs to replace the batterythey modify this CAD file to mount their own "powerbank" inside it, then print that out, slot in their powerbank, wire on the right connector, and slot it in.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 09:23:59 am
content: No we need to supply a battery. The customers won't be interested in sourcing a battery, they want it from us. We also don't want to be dealing with unknown battery setups when they call in with issues with the machine that are actually of their own making by using an incorrect battery.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 09:31:21 am
content: Just make an 18650 pack? These are so easily available tagged or untagged, and also the BPC and charger boards, it shouldn't be too hard to build a pack to your specific needs.12V 8Ah would be quite unusual these days, most higher power tool packs are higher voltage so they can be lower current.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 10:00:36 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 08, 2024, 09:23:59 amSo make it compatible with, say Makita, and supply a Makita battery, or re-branded clone with it.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 10:09:27 am
content: Makita LXT battery is not only common in itself, but also one of the most widely copied. Many cheap power tool manufacturers simply produce their own power tool series which accept Makita LXT batteries, and have their own clone battery series too. They of course do not mention the Makita brand name due to legal reasons.So if the voltage (5s), capacity, and current capability are in the right range, and the physical shape seems OK for the purpose, this is a pretty easy way. Then again, you can always engineer your own battery pack, and then you get exactly what you need.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 10:35:07 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 08, 2024, 09:23:59 amhttps://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/?Quote from: Simon on March 07, 2024, 08:59:42 amQuote from: Simon on March 07, 2024, 06:38:28 pm

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 11:22:21 am
content: If you can't join an existing system, best chance is probably calling up battery pack manufacturers to see if they have some semi-generic designs that would make sense at the (low-ish?) quantities you need.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 12:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on March 08, 2024, 09:31:21 amI have one number for you: 38.3 with UN in front of it. UN 38.3 makes a lot of testing rules and no one will carry your batteries unless they are UN 38.3 certified, believe me we have been down this rabbit hole of investigation. Just shipping fully compliant batteries is something you can't just do. You need to gain a licence to ship batteries over 100Wh.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 12:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 08, 2024, 10:00:36 amMakita you say? like I said, traditional tool batteries ore deeply political within the group. Our parent company has a deal with one tool maker and the other tool maker is a sworn enemy and it just goes on so it's best to just avoid them. Tool batteries will also need the mating section designing and manufacturing which with our low volumes is not easy.A plain shaped brick like RRC suggested above makes with the option to buy the battery terminals is a much easier option both to manufacture for and to quell the internal politics or concerns about licencing. I only design the stuff. I can't decide if using such and such companies battery is legal, that is not my job and those who have that responsibility have already said no.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 02:31:56 pm
content: There are quite a few suppliers of standard and customizable approved packs, e.g.https://steatite-batteries.co.uk/lithium-ion/https://www.varta-ag.com/uk/industry/product-solutions/lithium-ion-battery-packs/cellpac-litehttps://tracerpower.com/products/lifepo4-batteries/https://www.litechpower.com/LiFePO4-Battery-Packs/

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 03:20:24 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 08, 2024, 02:31:56 pmSome good leads. Tracer is what we already use. There is a cable from battery to machine rather than the battery being something that goes into a compartment. The ones in our range use these horrible 2 pole male+female bullet connector.steatite, looks like they only supply shrink wrapped batteries with leads, same as ansmann on RS, they would need putting in a box with contacts, it could be worth talking to them.The varta ones all seem to be single cells so not a high enough voltage.Litech, yes came across them before, they seem to do a lot of custom builds which may involve costly certification.I'm literally looking for the bigger brother to the Nokia 3310 battery.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 03:52:23 pm
content: Sony NP-F series and its clones.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 05:58:26 pm
content: May also be worth looking at external packs made for TV/film camera/lighting - I've seen a few of these as basically self-contained blocks designed to go into belts etc., with qualilty connectors.Also these - look like laptop-class sizeshttps://uk.farnell.com/c/batteries-chargers/batteries-rechargeable?brand=rrc-power-solutions

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 08:38:20 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 08, 2024, 05:58:26 pmYes, the only ones in stock are in fact the RRC ones, good to know they have a UK distributor.