Idle Commodore speculation - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 03:02:45 am
content: Any Commodore nerds here?As we know the TED series were a monumental flop, almost company-destroying. Not compatible with the established software base of the 64 and the VIC-20. Using new joystick and datasette connectors too. Luckily still used the Commodore serial port so you could use the previous drives, but none of the software would work.Here's my thought. If Tramiel wanted to outcompete the low end 8 bit market, he already had a computer to do that : the VIC-20.Why didn't Commodore simply upgrade the VIC-20 to have 16K+3K on board (the VIC has a weird memory architecture) and toss in a Super Expander ROM on the motherboard to make programming it easier? Remove the user port since there was little use for it, to make it cheaper. This also removes the need for the 9VAC the VIC-20 needed, so you can use a much cheaper, maybe switching, DC only wall wart.Keep the VIC-style expansion port to use the VIC games.This super VIC would have targeted the same goal yet not alienate the existing user base. The new VIC could have been put into the same new color scheme as the C16. Also cheap to do. Keep the molds, change the color.And maybe just make the video chip output twice the pixels in a new video mode. That could have been cheap to do as well. No extra colors, keep the 4 audio voices of the VIC, that was two more than the TED series! Just something to stretch that old hardware to the max, which Commodore was really good at. (Witness the Amiga architecture, stretched beyond reason into 1994)I don't know, just daydreaming.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 04:52:36 pm
content: For all the "what could have been" stories that can be woven around the web and weft of the computer market from the '70's through the '90's, those around Commodore readily rise to the top of missed opportunities.Commodore was cursed by inept and corrupt management who rarely had priority outside of their own enrichment. Something like a "Super VIC" could have worked. I'm shocked that they never made a decent expandable C-64 similar to the Apple ][ paradigm. It wasn't until the A2000 that they finally got a clue about an expandable computer. The A3000 was too expensive and too late.Apple for all their foibles managed to find solutions that were relatively good for the time, while at the same time abandoned some of the better ideas. The classic struggle of Wozniak vs. Jobs. Open vs. Closed.For both the Apple ][ and the Macintosh Apple was able to capture market share with readily available software. The Apple ][ because there was quite a bit developed for it, and the Mac did well because MacWrite and MacPaint were quite powerful and revolutionary for the time. Those showed what could be done, for those who would otherwise have been hesitant to buck the IBM PC wanna-be crowd.Commodore didn't learn that lesson. In the long run price and hardware specifications are no match for software availability.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 05:59:58 pm
content: The C64 was the logic step up from the VIC20. I don't thing the C64 failed so bad. Once going from sram to dram there is no need to have only 16 k.For the home use there was no real need for expansions beyond what could be done with the expansion port, though made primarily for rom cartridges.

author: bsdphk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 07:22:23 pm
content: "Commodore was cursed by inept and corrupt management who rarely had priority outside of their own enrichment."Commodore's management/owners are seldom properly credited for this, but they literally invented the "double-sandwich" model of off-shore tax-evasion.The downside to that structure was that it was impossible to repatriate money thus "liberated", and that is a large part of why Commodore "ran out of money for product development": They *had* the money, but repatriating it would have exposed the tax evasion.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 07:26:31 pm
content: (At least in the US,) If it's legal, it's typically called "tax avoidance"; if it's illegal, it's typically called "tax evasion".

author: bsdphk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 08:04:22 pm
content: It was illegal, if it hadn't been, they could have repatriated the loot.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 09:42:37 pm
content: As I understand things, Apple is in a situation right now where they have an enormous stockpile of cash outside the US that they'd owe US taxes on iff they repatriated it. (There's an open case in Ireland as to whether they owe some billions of tax on it, but there's no question that the US can't tax it as it sits, but would be able to tax it if they brought it into the country.)So, Apple is flush with cash and is simultaneously borrowing new cash to pay dividends in the US and has been doing so since 2013. That pattern of facts [not being able/willing to repatriate the cash] does not necessarily evidence "because they choose not to repatriate the money, it's prima facia evidence that it's tax evasion" and I think instead is an existence proof of a valid tax optimization reason to not do it.

author: bsdphk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 10:21:56 pm
content: I have no idea what Apple does or how it compares to what Commodore did when I worked there.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 11:45:45 pm
content: In what capacity did you work at Commodore?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 12:00:32 am
content: Kinda off-topic but somewhat related:The 8bit Guy on Youtube will be releasing his idea of an 8bit dream computer in the near future, it will run the Commodore kernel and basic with some tweaks supposedly. This audience is big enough it might have a decent software ecosystem.For anyone interested,https://www.commanderx16.com/forum/index.php?/home/Personally I'm looking forward to it!

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 02:23:31 am
content: Commodore (typewriters at teh time) under Tramiel with other crooks managed to bankrupt 'sixth largest sales finance company in Canada'https://www.stat.colostate.edu/~zube/commodore2.txt@sokoloffApple used Drumpfs tax cuts and brought all the dirty money back statesidehttps://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/2/17310770/apple-stock-earnings-buyback-dividend-tax-tim-cook-iphoneC64 was almost perfect(*) 80s home computer. Tramiel immediately cut costs by firing/screwing into leaving all of its designers ;] Look up Ensoniq, or Computer history museum Bill Mensch interviewhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1ApyqSvm0.When Amiga showed up there was no one with a clue left at the company. What Amiga needed for faster adoption was C64 on a chip for backwards compatibility. Garbage like C128D costing as much as A500 to manufacture etc, Plus/4 C16 C116, all worthless brand dilution.*could use programmable palette ;-) and actually utilized 6526 CIA hardware shift register for full speed floppy instead of pathetic 400 Bytes/s bitbanging.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 02:56:18 am
content: I never understood why 121 colors was a design goal for the TED but no sprites, and no SID in the machines. Baffling decisions.Imagine having an expanded VIC-20, finally more memory and a better BASIC right out of the box without cartridges hanging out the back or needing an expansion module. Suddenly all that VIC software that needed more memory will work, and also the larger type-ins from the magazines would also be available.It would have fit in the niche of low end computing for beginners and have lots of software to start. As for memory, perhaps they could have added DRAM refresh into the VIC like they did for the VIC-II. I don't know what the price difference was for D vs S RAM back then.Then further along my idle daydream, Commodore would have worked on the C65 earlier, right after the Super VIC.I don't get much excitement from modern computing projects, because soooo much power is available so cheaply it's just not that terribly interesting. To me, I mean. Obviously other people find it interesting.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:45:21 am
content: Commodore did expanded VIC-20, it was called C-64 :-)Commodore 65 was plain stupid, ~Amiga like chipset capabilities with 65C816 CPU. Perfect C64 upgrade in 1985, maybe even 1987, but 1991? and just like C128D would cost as much as Amiga 500 to manufacture.There was no market for 8-bitters in the nineties. There was only a very slim timeframe where 16 bitters made sense. Not to mention most of silicon engineers capable of actually designing custom chips were gone by 1992, as evidenced by lack of common sense upgrades to Amiga ECS (Paula floppy SerDes bitrate upgrade, audio mixer etc). They all either got fired, or screwed so many times out of owed bonuses to leave on their own. The only people left at Commodore engineering were either 9-5 ers or useful idiots. Commodore lost the ability to design and manufacture custom chips, and lacked funds and common sense to go off the shelf/contract with fabless third party. All the while paying record executive salaries and bonuses.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 01:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on July 22, 2020, 11:45:21 amI personally think the higher ups at Commodore were not inept at all, rather they had seen that the 'PC' had won the war by the 90's so they milked the company for all that they could because it was going to go under anyway.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 03:30:41 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on July 22, 2020, 02:23:31 amThanks for the update on Apple's repatriation of international profits.There's nothing "dirty" about international cash holdings which resulted from international profits, IMO. Your bias might be showing.

author: bsdphk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 04:45:16 pm
content: I ran the accounting machine in Commodore Denmark, ironically an IBM System/34, and since Denmark was very successfull at moving C=64's, our profit was directed to go to the tax-shelter and those transactions were somewhat unusual.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 05:28:25 pm
content: OK , could not have a better source of that sort of information

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 05:32:31 pm
content: The 2 Toronto Street place , where, according to the first link posted by Rasz, Commodore started in Canada

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 05:39:32 pm
content: QuoteSo Commodore did not make typewriters but rather resold them re-badged...That is a bit of a bummer

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 06:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on July 22, 2020, 05:39:32 pmFiling cabinets too. At least in Canada.In any case my idle speculation is more about what they could have done in the 1983-1985 time-frame. For me the TED series was a huge mistake. I have a Plus/4, I think it looks cool and I like the better BASIC but to have thrown away the whole user base with nothing more to offer was bizarre.I think that upgrading the VIC a bit and selling it as a low-end stopgap instead would have been better.And right after that starting on the C65 for the 8 bit high end while it still made sense in the mid '80s, instead of the 128.Who wanted or needed CP/M by the mid 1980s? Not too many people, and certainly not at the crippled speed the 128 offered.But I also have a 128D and it looks cool. But imagine a C65 with expansion slots in there instead?Better video, more sound (they should have upgraded the SID to finish Bob Yannes' initial vision. I think the SID was supposed to have much more capability.) More memory, better memory management (MMU? DMA?), better BASIC, burst mode serial protocol, etcOh well. Dreams are cheap and fun.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 08:27:37 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 22, 2020, 06:07:40 pmFrom what I remember Bil Herd just threw some spare parts together and nobody stopped him. Same for putting more and more garbage into C128. Wasnt even designed by committee, instead it was designed by what else do we have in the warehouse/engineering that wouldnt sell otherwise.Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 22, 2020, 06:07:40 pmbut C64 was that low end stop gapQuote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 22, 2020, 06:07:40 pmThe only way C65 would made any sense would be releasing it alongside A1000 in 1985 with same Amiga chipset, just different CPU and C64 compatibility mode (cost reduced to one chip), and not releasing C128 at all. Probably >%90 of C128 consumers bought it expecting C64, but 2x more better. Most probably never even noticed getting scammed.Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 22, 2020, 06:07:40 pmimagine paying $500 for C128D vs $700 for A500 in 1997Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 22, 2020, 06:07:40 pm"they" all got fired :-( There is no point dreaming about better SID when at the time Commodore was incapable of designing fundamental stuff like 500 KHz pll. Something so basic Amiga relegated it to a no experience new kid (Glenn Keller). Btw he was also "let go" somewhere between A1000 and A500 with the rest of Amiga silicon team.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:02:26 pm
content: $700? I bought my A500 in 1991 for less than $500.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on July 22, 2020, 09:02:26 pmRelease prices in 199787. As I said earlier manufacturing cost of C128D was almost equal to A500. C128 was a warehouse clearing project, Imo nothing more than a scam.Btw C128D kept its "value" all the way to the nineties in Europe. Poland in December 1989 black market used 128D was ~$190 while A500 $230 ... on paper (good enough to compare to each other only), the trick was nobody would sell you dollars at that exchange rateand average salary was ~$7/month. Prices in official legal shop were $820 and $890 respectively. By 1991 it was $400 vs $500 and Amiga would very slowly go down to be around $300 by 1995.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 10:01:53 pm
content: Maybe you mean prices in 1987

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 03:52:53 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on July 21, 2020, 03:02:45 amMy VIC-20 expansion card complete with a 5220 LPC encoder for speech, EPROM programmer, parallel printer port and some added RAM. Most of the routines were written in assember and stored in EPROM. I then called them from BASIC. I had the floppy drive.*****Reloaded the main picture. The link now seems to work.

author: bsdphk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 06:11:55 am
content: "C128 was a warehouse clearing project, Imo nothing more than a scam."A lot of the reason for the C128 was backpressure from the school market in Europe, where the C64 initially did pretty well, but got under pressure from "real" CP/M computers with 80 character wide screens which were more suitable for text-processing.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 10:15:53 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 23, 2020, 03:52:53 amSo cool. As a kid I built a 16K RAM expansion following the schematic from a ham magazine. I saved time by stacking the two 8Kx8 chips and bending out the CS pin! I cleverly added switches to swap banks around and make the RAM read-only. It seemed like a good idea.I interfaced a SPO256 through the user port. Very silly stuff, the voice was like a Dalek and you had to choose the phonemes carefully. I couldn't afford the CTS text to speech chip.So if you were back in 1983 or 1984 and Commodore came out with my user portless but memory expanded VIC, would you have bought it?

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 12:21:54 am
content: Quote from: bsdphk on July 23, 2020, 06:11:55 amWhat school would buy c128 at twice the price of Amstrad CPC 464 (cp/m, 80 column, monitor included)? Sounds like one of those imaginary 'everyone will want $1K Amiga 500 inside their CD Deck!!1' markets.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 01:51:54 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on July 24, 2020, 12:21:54 amDamn dude, did Jack Tramiel kick your favorite kitten or something?

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 09:54:17 am
content: Tramiel was long gone before C128. He might of been a ruthless tyrant and a crook, but at least he knew what made some sense and money

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 03:17:09 pm
content: Opel Commodore, which gave Jack Tramiel an inspiration for his company nameEdit: image source: Wikipedia

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 07:26:31 pm
content: Why would you name your company after Opel Commodore and not Opel Admiral ? :-)In all seriousness Tramiel started Commodore with Army loan and wanted the name to somehow reflect military connection for extra prestige.Anyway every time this 'what if Commodore' topic comes up I dig up into my stash of comments I made over the years. Here we go:Quote

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 01:54:30 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on July 24, 2020, 07:26:31 pmBecause "Admiral" had already been taken!QuoteHere it is, ( from 23:00 to 24:00 ) right from the horse's mouthhttps://youtu.be/NBvbsPNBIykThe entire video (from 17:00 after the introduction) is well worth watching though.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 02:10:45 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on July 24, 2020, 07:26:31 pmYou crack me up, but I knew none of this when I was a kid... I just wanna daydream.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 05:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 23, 2020, 03:52:53 amOh, wow - that brings back memories. I haven't cracked my VIC-20 open in at least 25 years. I'm actually impressed with my skills from 33 odd years ago. I added 3x8kB battery backed SRAM, 8kB EPROM, 6522 VIA, RS-232 port, and audio amplifier - all internal. Hand assembled basic extensions for various things including graphics primitives, renumbering, etc. I think the EEPROM was programmed on my TRS-80 MIII which had a home brew EPROM programmer and (slow) Z-80 simulator. Pretty sure I also had a SP0256 speech synth connected at some point.