Question - Reballing Is Not Repair? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
content: Sorry if this is the improper section for this topic.I have had a YLOD PS3 sitting in my room for years now awaiting the day I finally either toss it into the bin or do something else with it so I started looking into finding someone who can repair it since I have zero experience in this sort of thing.Basically the issue seems to be that either the CPU/GPU or some BGA chip has failed or is not working properly and the widely accessible repair is either reball or reflow said chip. I came upon this video where a guy basically says BGA reballing is most of the time a scam and that when it works its usually due the thermal expansion of the chips internals setting up in a way that allows it to operate.I have heard alot of stupid stuff from what I think is this guys archetype in the firearms hobby. Stuff like "Shake your ammo to keep the powder from caking in on area" stuff that sounds good in theory to an untrained ear but isn't a real thing in reality. What I would really like is to have citations and sources this guy neglected to post, possibly input from someone who knows real engineering info about this stuff.So is BGA reballing the same chip repair or a tactic of a hucktser?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 09:02:56 pm
content: Reballingsometimescan be a true repair, actually I have one LCD TV board which I need to fix where defect is truly because of the soldering fail. But in most cases it's a heating which temporarily revives the chip. And vast majority of reballing guys are scumbags.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 09:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 27, 2016, 09:02:56 pmJust applying pressure on the chip is the test for that right?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 09:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: Ridah on January 27, 2016, 09:09:26 pmI wonder how you want to apply pressure on a chip with 300+ balls like that and keep it steady hoping that it will work while you test it. Unless that particular failure mode is a typical thing for that device (like some early XBoxes having thermal issues), I would expect the problem to be rather something else and the reflow/reballing being unlikely to fix anything.I think what he referred to in one of his videos where he was fixing a laptop that some idiot had tried to "repair" by using a heatgun on the GPU is that most people offering these reballing/reflowing repairs have no idea about what they are doing and why, they just take a heatgun to it as the first thing. In the case of that laptop there were actually some blown parts (voltage regulator, I think) on the mainboard and the GPU that the original "repairman" was reflowing was completely fine ...That guy knows what he is doing and talking about, just look at his other troubleshooting videos.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 09:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: Ridah on January 27, 2016, 09:09:26 pmSometimes, if the board reacts to bending, than it is a high possibility.In this particular case I removed that bga chip and there certainly was soldering failure because a few pads on the corners are without any solder and are oxidized. I just don't have the solder balls of the right size to reball and solder it back. These particular boards are dying like hell because the pcb is wobbling crap. It will be a real PITA to actually solder it back because this pcb significantly deforms when heated. I wish I had an IR station with bigger preheater which would significantly reduce this deformation.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 09:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on January 27, 2016, 09:23:47 pmPossibly yes, some of the time. But he sure likes the sound of his own voice. I think I'll leave it there.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 09:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on January 27, 2016, 09:23:47 pm"Some", actually not some but all of them and a hell a lot of them died, some peope gone through multiple of them because every of them failed. And they died not because of the solder ball but chip fail. And all that xbox reballing was/is a big scam.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 10:13:59 pm
content: I guess I'll just cut up the console and sell the parts since I can't do anything else with them.This shit generation is why I'm never going to own another console even as a gift. Fuck proprietary bullshit hardware.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 04:03:22 am
content: I successfully reballed a part on an Intel based laptop MB. The catch is it was totally guess and check and who knows how long the repair will last. Basically if your options are dump it or try it yourself and dump it if it fails, give it a shot. I wouldn't spend money on it since it might only last a short time. Certainly if you try it do what ever you can to improve heat sinking from the chip since it was likely high running temps that caused the issue in the first place.

author: cpuerror
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 01:58:59 pm
content: Keep the power supply. Depending on the version it is 12v 35a iirc on the early model. Maybe the hd too. The rest of it is unrepairable junk.

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 05:13:52 pm
content: From my experience, Reflow-Repairs of chips that tend to get not too hot is possible and if the device has been built around 2010 or after often becomes a reliable repair.Chips that get really hot (GPUs, PS3/Xbox Chips) aren't so easy to repair or unfixable at all.The older Xbox 360 is an extreme case in this matter: Attempting to reflow the GPU or the CPU results in desoldering half the chip because the heatsinks put so much pressure on the board that it bends significantly! There's even an aftermarket kit available to compensate for that.In case of the PS3 a repair-attempt is mostly only sufficient to backup savegames and other user-data for transfer to a working system. Playing games with a repaired console almost always leads to a failing system again.If you don't put too much value in your savegames, I recommend replacing the broken one with a new one and sell the old one for spare parts. Otherwise you could attempt a reflow in your oven set to 240°C to gain access to your data.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 06:18:32 pm
content: I have included some pictures of the metal housing the board sits inside. Note the perfect outlines of components from heat staining on the metal.http://imgur.com/a/jmkOOQuote from: cpuerror on January 28, 2016, 01:58:59 pmAnything usefull I could do with it?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 07:04:55 pm
content: Quote from: Ridah on January 27, 2016, 08:49:10 pmYou have to understand the context in which he says this. He is a repair guy who doesn't want returns. There is probably some truth to what he's saying. Can reballing permanently repair the issue? Sure it can, but you could also be dealing with a bad chip, and the issue may reappear. He did the math and it's cheaper for him to just replace the chip from a donor board than chance it coming back. He certainly has vast amounts of experience and I can't really question him on it.For instance few years back nVidia admitted to their GPUs being badly packaged and having a high failure rate:https://gigaom.com/2009/01/14/why-apples-macbook-pro-nvidia-gpu-extended-service-program-is-inadequate/Simultaneously in PC overclocker community it was common for folks to "bake" their video cards with some limited amount of success. In some cases temporary.He's probably right.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: Ridah on January 28, 2016, 06:18:32 pmif you have to ask the answer is no. put everything on craiglist and enjoy $10.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:40:13 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on January 28, 2016, 09:17:27 pmIt is these types of douchebag comments that remind me why I don't use forums much.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on January 28, 2016, 07:04:55 pmSure it can not except some rare exceptions.QuoteYou are dealing with a faulty chip with 95+% probabilityQuoteIdiot community destroying the hardware beyond further repair possibility. Also idiots disassembling their laptop and heating the GPU every two weeks with incandescent bulb on top. Seen plenty of such laptops, screws lost, most of the FPCs destroyed.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 09:52:26 pm
content: wow, how the hell did he not smell it burning, the smell must have been awful.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 10:16:55 pm
content: Quote from: Ridah on January 28, 2016, 09:40:13 pmFair call, I sometimes find him abrupt too. On the flip side though, I thought this was wittier than usual.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2016, 11:09:17 pm
content: Quote from: Ridah on January 28, 2016, 09:40:13 pmso you only want to hear the answer that you like? ok yes you can do something usefull to it such as put it where some fishes can breed... or maybe like this...

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 02:14:56 am
content: Here is the deal, Rossman bombed out of school (his own admission) and had no formal training in any type of engineering, he gives a truckload of advice and criticizes (ad nauseam) everything else that moves. To the causal observer he appears to know what he is talking about, to more seasoned engineers especially cross disciplined, he is a novice.Now back to the subject is reheating BGA a suitable repair? yes and no. If you cannot inspect the ball work you can consider it experimental at best, it's also arguable that without adding flux it won't be a permanent fix. If the failures root cause is known and it's not an inherent design issue that will keep reoccurring the chance of success is greater. So it's circumstances plus how the repair is performed that determines the chance of failing at a later date.The "true engineering" way of doing it would be to use a new component account for the root cause and use a similar process used in manufacture (or adjust as necessary) to repair it.But not everyone has that money laying around for a games console only worth a couple of hundred bucks or less. So they will probably get a relatively unskilled repairer (depending on location).The bottom of the barrel is where all the sharks feed, and if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, same deal for repairers as it is with mechanics, builders, plumbers, customer service etc.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 02:34:26 am
content: Quote from: Shock on January 29, 2016, 02:14:56 amFrankly saying, seasoned engineers often are completely useless at repairs, especially like in this particular case.QuoteIt is suitable in two cases: 1. If you need 2 more weeks out of your device, 2. if you are a repair tech without any morale and obligation.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 02:39:24 am
content: I kind of enjoyed this videos, he seems to have found a service in demand and making a living on it. My main questions is where does he get his donor boards for parts exchange?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 03:15:26 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 29, 2016, 02:34:26 amYep which is why I mentioned cross disciplined, a software engineer for example may have a hard time grasping the physics and chemistry side of things.QuoteWell as I eluded to vaguely, it comes down often to cost and that means competency of the repairer and type of repair. Some repairers think they are doing a great job and aren't, some know damn well it's going to come back, some do a really nice job for the money.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 03:19:53 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on January 29, 2016, 02:39:24 amHe has mentioned it off hand in a few videos. Ali Express. They have holes drilled in them.He also buys used/dead Apple laptops.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 04:24:29 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on January 29, 2016, 02:39:24 amThere are many "sins of the repairer" in the repair and service industry (not just electronics). Perks (if you like free parts), scams and cons are frequent and some of these guys are professional bullshit artists.Customers often don't come back to pay for the repair.A customer may be told it's an uneconomical repair and leave their device.A customer may be told it's an uneconomical repair on a simple job and get sold a new device with an enticement of a discount. "Would you like a data transferal service with that as well?"Customer may voluntarily leave parts for the store (recycling or they don't want their old part).The device will be repaired and sold if possible or raided for parts.Customers may be downgraded or parts removed without them knowing.Customers may end up with "value added" repairs where extra faults are added to the bill.Parts may be raided from a customers device and reused in another repair job.Repairers could source the genuine part or quality equivalent. But many customers would not know the difference sadly. If the parts don't just walk in the front door, they could have been purchased cheap and inferior brands or secondhand components, wrecked or water damaged pcbs, or the wrong components and specs may even be used.There is the "no-fix-fix" where nothing is done and it's just given back to the customer and billed.There is the "if-it-works-leave-it fix" where a faulty part is removed and the customer is none the wiser and given the bill.Faulty or junk bin parts are sometimes shown to the customer from another repair to justify the price or faults.Service bulletins or parts recalls often have warranty provided free parts and labor supplied by the manufacturer. The repairer could claim these back from the manufacturer but still give the customer a bill. Charge when the device should have really been a warranty job, or charge when the sent the device to the manufacturer and did no work at all.Vintage parts being unnecessarily removed (for resale) during a repair or restoration could leave the customer with a bill and the repairer some extra sales and then some nice parts to sell to another customer for top dollar.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 04:38:10 am
content: Quote from: Ridah on January 28, 2016, 09:40:13 pmIt was meant to be blunt and to the point. No idea what your area of expertise is, so Im gonna use bad car analogy: you just posted on car forum about totalled car with bend frame, and then asked what useful things can be done with spare car battery and leftover gas ...Quote from: Shock on January 29, 2016, 02:14:56 amstrongly disagree. Louis is extremely knowledgeable in his particular niche and demonstrated numerous times his capability to learn new things with ease, something that cant be said about majority of 'legit EEs out there'.Quote from: Shock on January 29, 2016, 02:14:56 amagreeWhen it comes to GPU its 99% in the chip itself. PS3 is pre bad nvidia chips, but the issue here is pcb warping.

author: gilbenl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 04:56:59 am
content: The real sin is shit products.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 05:14:15 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on January 29, 2016, 04:38:10 amWell I think what we are talking about is troubleshooting skills, deduction and memory to recall the way you did those last fifty inverter fuses. I think he has learned a lot on the job I'll give him that credit.Hands on vs formal training (even reading a book will do), age old debate. But I recall someone else on the forums a while back summed it up best by saying the only ones that are complaining about how useless formal training is are the ones that haven't done it.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 02:09:32 pm
content: The problem specific to xbox series consoles as I understand it, is the lead free solder under the BGA devices isn't entirely stable, plus the board/thermal design ensures the whole thing gets too hot and warps.So to truely fix this, you need to remove all the 'balls' from the BGA, and put new ones with stronger solder, plus you need to secure the chip better so it doesn't move and/or fix the heat issues.If you just heated it up to remelt the brittle solder you solved very little, and it's just reworking. I seriously doubt most of these repairs get anywhere near an actual reballing machine, so it's fraud to call the repair reballing.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 09:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on January 29, 2016, 05:14:15 amI have seen several of his videos and there are quite a few where he finds a schematics, analyses the possible issue why the board he is repairing could have the fault he is seeing and debugs it from there. He may not be able to design that MacBook or XBox but I think his troubleshooting skills are pretty good. Certainly a far cry from the "on the job trained repetitive replace-fuse-here" monkey you are implying.I have seen way too many formally trained engineers who build something (be it software or hardware) and then when it doesn't work right away they throw hands up in the air and do random things hoping that it will somehow fix the issue ...Yes, Luis is a bit rude and doesn't sugar coat things, but he knows what he is doing.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 09:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on January 29, 2016, 02:09:32 pmyet another one repeating this BS myth.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 01:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on January 29, 2016, 05:14:15 amI have a formal training (EE), and I don't think it is useless, but negate that pratical, or hands on as you said, could teach and train well a person is a little to much. I (as many more I think) know some non-formal trained persons that know much more how to fix or even project some things than others trained, as I know many engineers that have dificult to put a 555 to work, or make a good software, or layout a pcb...About the BGA, I had a HP notebook (my first AMD processor computer), and man, that thing get too hot that sometimes I burned my legs or hands on that. That suffered from one problem that a technician here told it needed a reballing. He told me that every time he do that, he cannot afford to give warranty beyond one week, because, well, because it is not his falty. He said that only if that had sentimental value for me it could worth the service. My wife liked soo much the notebook, and was my first problem like that, so I did. Two months after, the same problem... went to garbage....