We're Getting Old. Infineon just killed all classics ... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 02:45:42 pm
content: BC547 BC557 BC517 1n4148 2n2222 BAV99 and tons more . All the stuff i grew up with ... all gone. in one shot ...http://media.digikey.com/pdf/PCNs/Infineon/PD_012_16.pdfnext i'll read somewhere the 741 and 555 are dead too ...

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 02:59:03 pm
content: Don't panic. They are only killing off many SOT 23 typesand apparently not the THTs which I mostly use.Yours Messtechniker

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 03:04:43 pm
content: Luckily I don't see ECC81, EL84 etc on the listCome on, you can't expect they stay producing for repair and hobbyist only and find their profit there. Most the TO92/TH parts in SMD packaging is not on the list. And many other is 2nd source of other brands.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 04:23:25 pm
content: That list is 34 pages long

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 04:45:44 pm
content: I can understand things like TO92 BC547s etc. but SOT23 parts like BC847, BAS16, BAV99 are bread and butter design parts. This just looks like them admitting that they can no longer compete on price for such commodity parts.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 07:52:33 pm
content: BC847?? Really?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 08:03:02 pm
content: I just released a board yesterday with 10 SOT23 BAV99. Silly...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 08:20:50 pm
content: Oh well since each hobbieist has a drawer full of these jelly bean parts there must be gazillions to get on Ebay and when there really is a shortage some chinese silicon fab will producing them.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 08:24:58 pm
content: It's just Infineon - there's still ON, Fairchild, NXP, ST...

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 09:08:12 pm
content: A hundred people in China make 'em, they're old and poor spec anyway, and you don't need anywhere near the diversity.I never understood how there came to be thousands of types of "general purpose NPN amplifier transistor", occupying perhaps half of every designation series in existence (2Nxxx, 2Sxxx, etc.). Producer-driven, I suppose, but people still had to buy the things throughout history...I've never needed anything beyond 2N3904 (GP), 2N4401 (higher current, slightly better spec than PN2222), maybe 2N5088 (higher hFE), MPSA42 (high voltage), and newer types preferred for special purposes (high current, high frequency, SMT variants, etc.). And complements, of course.Tim

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 09:23:14 pm
content: LOE in December 31st2019!!!With the recent mergers in the semiconductor industry, one can only wonder ifthe companies listed in this PCN(edit) Infineon will still exist by then...

author: danadak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2016, 09:51:45 pm
content: There is no small number of parts in which the packaging costs far exceed the silicon costs(fab, process, test, final assem...).I recall in the 70's working at NSC that the linear group had driven prices down so far thatsome parts were being shipped at a loss. The best and the brightest could not run a businessSome of this due to special deals cut to win a design, eg. sell a high margin part, sacrifice afew of the glue part profitability. Some deals so convoluted they looked like Wall Street junk bondsand derivatives.Back in the day many transistors evolved because many design were highly optimized discretedesigns, so parts with special characteristics were sought after and screened out of a generic.Sometimes the part carried a new 2N designation, other times a stamp off.Crazy business the semiconductor business.Regards, Dana.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2016, 07:39:13 am
content: Quote from: bson on July 29, 2016, 08:24:58 pmYou would think so, right? Wrong (or about to be...).NXP was never interested in stuff like the BC547 that Philips also made, so from their takeover and on we have had to buy them from Fairchild.Another simple IC, like a LM393, suddenly wasn't available anymore as the ST the customer wanted, as a result of a takeover... it was killed off. Okay, we'll use National Semi.... oh... killed off as well... okay, TI then...What I'm seeing is that the number of big manufacturers is dwindling and that only a few giants will remain. Don't be surprised if lots of jellybean components will only be available from, say... TI or OnSemi, and that the price has gone up because of the lack of competition...In industrial electronics we cannot go for unknown second suppliers, unless we really have to. That reminds me of the2N4117very low leakage FET that we used to get from Siliconix. It went obsolete and we had to go to Vishay, but they stopped production pretty quickly as well. Now we have to buy them from Linear Systems, which is not particularly an A brand, but they seem to specialize in continuing the manufacture of some items that the big boys aren't interested in anymore.But you guessed it, while Siliconix and Vishay never ever gave any problems, we've already had to reject a batch of Linear Systems as the result of a production fault. In about a third of the components, the metal case (TO-72) wasn't bonded to the pin (pin 4) that connects it to the pcb... The FET part was fine, but the application also relies on the shielding provided by the metal case, otherwise it might have gone unnoticed.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2016, 09:13:55 am
content: If the price goes up they are no longer jelly ean parts.A lot of je.lybean parts from the 70s are already obsolete, think about the tincan transistors and tincan opamps. Just switch to the next generation jellybean part.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2016, 07:08:06 pm
content: Not so sad!Toshiba just released new transistors: TBC857/TBC847 Start of commercial production: 2016-05

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2016, 07:30:28 pm
content: Why continue to make parts there is no margin on? That's what I hear from our vendors anyways. We still use plain old through hole 1N4148's, 1N4937's and 6A4's by the spool. They just keep on flying through the lead former, and if one day they go away, we will just switch to the next easily available low cost diode de jour.Yes we are getting old! I have proof. Tomorrows my birthday!

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2016, 08:19:20 pm
content: NXP cancelled almost all DIP lines a few years ago. Nobody complained.http://www.nxp.com/wcm_documents/products/eol/NXP-DN_201412012DN.pdf

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2016, 08:23:37 pm
content: Yeah. We got caught by that one. Fortunately we just switched over to TI.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2016, 08:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 30, 2016, 08:19:20 pmHow do you know that nobody complained?

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 08:46:36 am
content: Good question. I wasn't aware of it, until now.One of the parts going obsolete is a 74HCT221N. I think this would make one of our customers complain (unless the company I work for informed them on time and we did a last time buy). I don't seem to easily find a drop in replacement...

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 10:53:15 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 30, 2016, 08:39:54 pmNo public complaining at least. Some probably begged nxp to reactivate the parts. But after eol they'll sell the machines pretty soon to repurpose the factory floor.

author: RES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 01:47:27 pm
content: Three decades from now the next generation of electronics engineers will again start to complain, because electronics (technology) continues to modernize and renew, forever. There will always will be replacements, equivalents, substitutes parts, because there will always be a company that will continue to reproduce the old parts, even a century later?As long as there is technology to replicate/reproduce parts, there is no problem, but it can be that technology that can start to break down and cannot be repaired any longer, or restored, that can become a problem one day. New technology has to be designed in a way that it can always reproduce older technology, two or more technologies combined into an all overlapping techology. No more obsolete parts ever.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 04:15:40 pm
content: Quote from: jitter on July 31, 2016, 08:46:36 amThat one is still made by TI (CD74HCT221E).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 07:56:44 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 29, 2016, 09:08:12 pmI agree that there is way too much overlap so a lot of the discontinued parts were not really needed anyway.My complaint is that many of the parts optimized for one feature are completely gone and have no replacements. What happened to the fast saturated switches? There is also a deplorable lack of high frequency complementary pairs and medium power high frequency transistors which previously existed in TO-39 packages. The power dissipation of a SOT-223 just does not cut it.At least the old low leakage diodes can be replaced by suitable small signal bipolar transistors if you want to do some easy grading.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 08:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 29, 2016, 09:08:12 pmHaving worked in the semiconductor industry, all those parts came from the B, C, D, E, F, G, and H grading bins.When you make 25-Mega-Trannys a month you have to do something with the less than prime and misfits.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2016, 10:53:16 pm
content: Time moves on. The big guys don't make 01A, 76, 5U4GB etc. anymore. And nobody would make things like 6L6 if it weren't for a price is no problem audio market.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 05:15:29 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 31, 2016, 04:15:40 pmThanx.Is TI the last of the big boys interested in selling DIP 74 series logic? If so, I wonder what the prices are going to do...

author: batteksystem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 08:27:19 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 29, 2016, 02:45:42 pmUsually when they kill off the old, that often mean they also offer some kind of upgrade to the market at the same time. Unless it is really an odd chip.

author: Cervisia
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 08:57:33 am
content: Quote from: jitter on August 01, 2016, 05:15:29 am"TI maintains a firm commitment to remain in the market with both leading-edge and mature logic lines.""TI Logic’s stable no end-of-life policy secures that all products in our portfolio will always be available."QuoteAs always, the prices are set by the Supply & Demand Fairy. Don't annoy her by using unpopular parts …

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 09:50:12 am
content: So they dont want so sell cheap transistors, and diodes with generic name. They want to sell vendor specific packages, and part numbers for higher margin. Vendor lock in is brilliant. Synergy!BTW some of these diodes are relatively important for high accuracy analog front ends. I dont know what were they thinking. Please tell me when there is a replacement for the small leakage BAV199

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 11:59:57 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 01, 2016, 09:50:12 amThere is still lots of small manufacturers who make these parts and they don't disappear ever. Its like with vinyls as big manufacturers close, small one and enthusiasts start their business. Today these simple semiconductors can be simply made by group of enthusiasts with old equipment.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 03:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 01, 2016, 09:50:12 amBAV199 is still in production from multiple sourceshttp://www.findchips.com/search/bav199

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 11:44:33 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 01, 2016, 09:50:12 amThe replacement is called the collector-base junction of a non-gold doped small signal transistor. If you can live with its low breakdown voltage, then the collector-emitter junction is also low leakage and very fast as well; not coincidentally, fast low leakage diodes, which I do not think anybody makes anymore, have reverse breakdown voltages of about 10 volts.Notice that the room temperature leakage specification at 75V for the BAV199 is 3pA typical and 5nA maximum. They are not even testing them for low leakage and for a good reason; leakage tests into the picoamp range take significant time which costs money. Non-gold doped small signal transistors offer similar performance and if you want reliable picoamp leakage, you will have to grade devices yourself even with the BAV199.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 11:58:07 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 01, 2016, 11:44:33 pmE-B junction*..?E-B is faster, but lower breakdown voltage and higher leakage than C-B.Recovery, C-B:E-B:E-B leakage is higher. I was playing with a semi-precision analog voltage clamp circuit, and couldn't get anything reasonable from the E-B junction. (I ended up going with inverted transistor operation, which gives precise Vec(sat), at the expense of needing more bias on the "reference" side of the circuit.) This follows from the junction's at least partial zener character: leakage is higher, and covers a wider voltage range -- becoming significant around 4-5V, with proper "breakdown" around 7V.QuoteThere are also PAD-1 and etc. (maybe discontinued now?), which ironically don't even work as well as a BJT C-B junction. (But, as you note -- they don't need to be qualified for low leakage, they already guarantee it.)

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2016, 12:36:18 am
content: You have to qualify and grade for the right transistor; it depends on the manufacturer and process. Not all 2N3904s are created equal.The collector-base junctions are pretty slow but high voltage low leakage diodes are slow as well which the BAV199 datasheet shows. When used for an input protection circuit, this does not matter unless you also want fast recovery from overload.The good emitter-base junctions I tested had about equally low reverse leakage compared to the collector-base junctions in the picoamp to 10s of picoamp range but of course the reverse voltage is low. The good ones had a recovery time which was close to my best reference level pulse generator at about 600ps. The fast low leakage but low voltage diode I was thinking of was used as a clamp in the z-axis amplifier in a Tektronix oscilloscope and was rated at I think 600ps, 15 volts, and 50pA. I wonder if I can find it going by memory since I did not keep my written notes ...Tektronix 465 - CR1464 - 152-0153-00 - 15V 50mA - Fairchild Semiconductor FD7003,PG7026,TID777Well, I was close. 15 volts maximum but 10 volts working, 100nA (not low leakage but I think that is the maximum specification), and 750ps which is the fastest silicon diode Tektronix listed a reverse recovery time for.Next time I will get some photographs of my results but I am holding off until I have a faster pulse generator and I want to use a faster oscilloscope.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2016, 01:40:48 am
content: Ah.Also, what does matter for protection: forward recovery, which is proportionally worse for higher voltage (and slower) diodes. This manifests as series inductance, so the overshoot can be significant!Tim

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2016, 04:17:01 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on August 02, 2016, 01:40:48 amRobert Pease mentioned and complained about that in his book. I have never encountered it myself (or did not recognize it) but from what I remember, he said he was working on a voltage-to-frequency converter where long forward recovery from a bad batch of diodes manifested as nonlinearity.I am reading what he said now and the overshoot was not inductance because it changed with repetition rate; it was worse at lower repetition rates and got better at higher repetition rates. The "bad" diodes he encountered came from a process change by the manufacturer.A little later he mentions the 2N3904 base-emitter diode:One “diode” that does turn ON and OFF quickly is a diode-connected transistor. A typical 2N3904 emitter diode can turn ON or OFF in 0.1 ns with negligible overshoot and less than 1 pA of leakage at 1 V, or less than 10 pA at 4 V. (This diode does, of course, have the base tied to the collector.) However, this diode can only withstand 5 or 6 V of reverse voltage, and most emitter-base junctions start to break down at 6 or 8 V. Still, if you can arrange your circuits for just a few volts, these diode connected transistors make nice, fast, low leakage diodes. Their capacitance is somewhat more than the 1N914’s 1 pF.I will add that you need to qualify and grade them yourself for this kind of performance.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2016, 07:13:57 am
content: Oh and, the waveforms above are the junctions only -- other pin open. With the other pin tied to base, IIRC, recovery all but goes away (you're using the transistor in its linear mode, which is fast).Tim

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2016, 07:35:41 am
content: Quote from: edavid on August 01, 2016, 03:15:27 pmI'm aware. If they have managers, who decide to do the same, than what.Quote from: Miyuki on August 01, 2016, 11:59:57 amThe last VHS manufacturer stopped the production. Tubes are not really made anymore. The issue is with the discrete semiconductors is that we still use them. Glue logic, analog stuff, power supply control and so on. If they say, BAV199 is not made anymore, but there is MBJ199HC (made up number) instead, with the exact same characteristics, who cares? Except if you work in a big company, and you need to create the part in the ERP system, build a prototype to verify that it is exactly the same, verify that the "soft characteristics" you relied on are exactly the same, step the revision of your design, and do it every time this happens. Suddenly the who cares becomes weeks of your time.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2016, 04:18:56 pm
content: On the other hand, that much work may mean that you and maybe some other people get to keep their jobs...