Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 01:52:51 pm
content: My wife has an iPad which she seldom uses, as she finds it doesn't work well with her Facebook games.As my laptop is faulty at the moment, I borrowed it.Everything seems difficult to do, but especially, answering postings on this, & other forums.Things which are simple with Windows on a PC are incredibly arduous.For instance, quoting just part of a posting, & deleting the rest.The thing will only delete backwards, so you have to start at the end, & work back.Sometimes it sort of works, then you find that somewhere along the line, you have Inadvertently imbeddedor something along those lines in your text (or it scatters random words throughout).The "keyboard" can't do square brackets, either, so if you accidentally delete one of those, you need to go hunting for one you can steal from somewhere else in the original posting.Another fun thing is that, when you tap the touchscreen, sometimes you get no result whatever, & need to do it several (or six) times.Aaarrrrggggh!!!Sent from my wife's iPad, using "hunt, peck, n' grind teeth".

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 01:56:45 pm
content: There is a certain style of writing which I attribute to tablets. I have one but I, like you, just HATE trying to write anything long in it.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 01:58:07 pm
content: I've used chrome browser on android many times on my tablet, and it worked fine

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 02:22:01 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 12, 2017, 01:52:51 pmWith the standard Apple iOS iPad keyboard: Touch the .?123 key then touch the #+= key. The square brackets are then where q and w (or 1 and 2) used to be.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 02:24:33 pm
content: I don't have a problem using my Shield Tab with the forum. I just use the regular theme because SMF4Mobile looks like a tire yard on bonfire night.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 02:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on August 12, 2017, 02:22:01 pmThanks for that!I looked all over on the 'Net for that information, but I must have been asking the wrong question.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 03:03:48 pm
content: The iOS keyboard has even more characters. A long press on many keys will show a popup with similar characters. The a key, for example, shows a popup with eight (on the US keyboard) versions of a like ä, å, á and æ. The - key gives medium and long dash and centered dot. Many characters to be found ...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 04:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 12, 2017, 01:52:51 pmIt's forum software's theme's JavaScript and whatnot. I run into the occasional weird issue here that I don't on other forums. (And some websites are far worse... instagram and Tumblr, I'm talking to you!) In the end, it boils down to the webmaster of a site not having performed enough testing on mobile, resulting in scripts that bog down a mobile CPU and cause weird behavior. Or scripts that aren't designed to work with touch inputs.On the eevblog forums, the thing that acts up on iPad for me is selecting text in the compose screen: it will often just lose its place. Oddly, zooming in on the large text field helps a lot. (If you see the selection handles being drawn weird at normal size, zoom until they look right; then it should also behave right.) Also, you must first tap once to enter (put focus in) the text field BEFORE you attempt to select text within it.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 04:11:32 pm
content: Text selection in IOS is pure trash. It is especially arduous inside a scrolling text edit box.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 04:13:27 pm
content: To use modern parlance, tablets are for "consuming content". Fancy way of saying watching youtube in bed on weekends.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 04:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on August 12, 2017, 04:13:27 pmIt's unfortunate but true that IT progresses from one silly fad to another. Windows 8's 'tiles' was another. Tablets are one such. Websites in which the page is nothing but one huge photo that keeps sliding across are another.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 04:48:54 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on August 12, 2017, 04:13:27 pmExcept more content is now being created on tablets (and phones) than on PCs.There are things you can't do on tablets. Most of the people who use tablets have never known and will never know how to do those things on a PC anyway.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 07:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 12, 2017, 04:48:54 pmMore content created on tablets? Says who? Does the quantity match the quality?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 08:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 07:51:26 pmOn mobile. Tablets and phones.Ask Benedict Evans, analyst at VC firm Andreessen Horowitz:http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2017/7/13/creation-and-consumption

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 08:20:37 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 12, 2017, 08:04:44 pmThat's a nice write-up, but can hardly called hard research. Look around you. Look at your desk. Your phone. The application on your screen. The graphics on pretty any product in your house. The video's you watch on Youtube. Were they designed and made on a mobile device, or a more 'traditional' computer?There obviously is a demand for devices that provide the leisure and portability of a tablet, but the ease of the tools that go with a traditional computer. I think Microsoft has successfully claimed that market with their Surface Pro line.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 08:48:30 pm
content: I find myself in a similar situation to the OP. I am tech support for my wifes iPad, and occasionally use it for my own purposes. I find it extremely trying to do much beyond looking at YouTube and Facebook. But a large part of it is unfamiliarity with the Apple OS and approach to things. As I have used it more I have found some of the tricks and shortcuts that are already ingrained in Windows and to a lesser extent Linux environments. It is becoming easier to use.I can't really make an honest comparison of the two since my level of expertise is so different. I find that many strident advocates of one or the other share my handicap, but are unwilling to admit it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 08:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 12, 2017, 08:48:30 pmThis is undoubtedly the truth. Research has shown that people tend to value the system they have experience with quite a bit more than others, unreasonably so. You will find that the rare people that have extensive experience with two or more ecosystems might have preferences, but generally admit that all have their merits and that the differences are not quite that big.Which obviously is the case too. It would be silly to claim that the other systems are rubbish if a significant portion of the world is happy using them.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 09:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 08:52:41 pmI've been programming computers since around 1980. I'm comfortable with a number of operating systems (but most *nix/shell based), and programming languages (mostly C based), and assembly languages ranging from PDP11 and VAX to Z80, 6502, 6809, 68000, PowerPC, ARM, Thumb, Aarch64, RISC-V. I've even forced myself to become competent at AMD64 this year (it's way better than I remember 286 being).I find tablets restricting compared to a good Linux or OSX machine. (I also, for what it's worth find MS Windows extremely restricting, very slightly ameliorated by putting cygwin on it.)There are maybe a few million people like me.There are another few million people who make professional videos, use Photoshop etc.There are several billion people who can get things done on a modern iOS or Android mobile device who are utterly lost on a traditional PC.*ANY* photo or video they shoot or document they create on a mobile device is content that would never have been created without it.The sheer discrepancy in numbers mean that more photos and more minutes of video are being created by the billions of mobile device users than by the millions of traditional PC content creators.You can argue that it's of lower quality, but it *exists* and it is *theirs*.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 09:50:42 pm
content: I'm quite happy switching back and forth between iOS and something a little more flexible (OSX).I've got to be honest and say that at least 90% of my personal needs are well met by iOS. It does take getting used to but that's only because it's different. With iOS 11 it'll have a proper filesystem on board as well which will make it less different.You know the killer feature for me? I'll be sitting there at the Mac reading something and go for a poo. Open safari, switch tabs, scroll down, pick a tab off the mac and carry on reading. Same with email, notes, calendars, the lot. If I take a photo on my iPhone it'll be there on the mac when I get home. This has worked flawlessly for me.I know Windows has this as well, but it is a complete piece of shit and doesn't work (I have a windows laptop and a couple of test windows phones as well).As for Linux, there isn't anything like it.I'm happy paying for just this feature.As for the original question, I switch back and forth between iOS/OSX and have no problems with Safari. If you jump off a windows or Linux box it'll be difficult until you get used to it. This is more "who moved my cheese" than "it's a piece of crap". I wanted to smash the damn thing for 2 weeks until I realised I expected the device to meet ME at the party, not meet the device half way there.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 09:52:30 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on August 12, 2017, 09:38:57 pmPictures and videos? Sure. Chairs, artwork, code, houses, cities, you name it. Those too? As always, statistics can skew the perception, but if you look around you, most of the things you see and touch are made on non mobile systems and platforms. People might edit videos together on their iPad, but generally move to a more mature platform when they get more serious.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 10:01:36 pm
content: I use the ipad a lot but hate it when I have to write long posts. Esp. Selecting and deleting part if quotes are sometimes a big PITA.In short : Ipad is wonderfull for passive consuming awfull when actively contributing.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 10:09:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 09:52:30 pmThe number of people designing cities and houses are quite small compared to everyone else. Mobile devices were never designed to replace every single stationary computer, but for many people they can do just that. Just as every household does not have a landline phone or a three ton lathe in the basement, not every household needs a stationary phone or stationary computer.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 10:25:22 pm
content: Part of the argument here is defining content. Huge numbers of people take pictures and video, and generate short messages - call them tweets and double tweets. Since pictures are large, videos are huge and the numbers are large this activity will dominate content defined by megabytes or message count.If you raise the bar slightly on definition of content to blogs and traditional emails and letters and I suspect that phones and pads and tablets fade very significantly.Raising the bar again to creating applications, writing large articles, books and papers, and editing, compositing and other video manipulation and pads and tablets probably fade to the just barely detectable level.All this is largely independent of OS. And it really is a case of the appropriate tool for the job. Kind of like moving from pocket knives and screwdrivers up to power tools and then up to large CNC machines. Most of the "work" in the world is done with low end tools, but virtually all of the really significant work is done with industrial level equipment.Users of desktop and laptop computers and users of industrial manufacturing equipment shouldn't feel threatened by the huge numbers of dilettante users.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 11:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on August 12, 2017, 10:09:52 pmThe point of my previous post was that the whole world is designed on that 'quite small' number of computers. Without getting into a numbers discussion, our world is designed on more traditional systems. As you confirm, mobile devices are for suited for content consumption. Not everyone has the need for content creation. Regardless of the Facebook pictures of Joe the plumber and Janice the receptionist.If we go by quantity, Lego is by far the largest tire manufacturer in the world

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 11:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 11:23:19 pmNo. I did not confirm that. There are substantial range of contents that can be created on a mobile device.Some decades ago you needed big video cameras and room-sized installations to produce a television program.Today all that is needed is a small handheld video camera and som editing software on a small mobile computer.The trend is clear.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 11:48:46 pm
content: I can't stand writing posts via Safari on this forum. For whatever reason (a combination of the JavaScript being served and all the animated emoticon GIFs I suspect) there is a huge lag between what you type actually showing up (close to 1 second) which is very distracting, since I can type 30WPM (or more) on the iPad touch keyboard, without even looking at the keys.Anyway, point being the forum software Dave uses doesn't have great mobile optimization. I'd recommend you instead take a look at Tapatalk, which is an App that lets you browse a large number of forums. You can follow threads, get push notifications, reply to posts, upload images, etc.It's all I use to participate in forums anymore (since all the forums I visit support it). It's very nice having everything in one place!Tapatalk is available in the App Store if you want to give it a try.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 11:50:53 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on August 12, 2017, 11:39:37 pmBut you did. You said that not every household needs a lathe and a stationary phone. Not everyone is a content creator and therefore can make do with content consuming tools. Again, content can be created on mobile devices. But if we look at the world around us, so very little of it is created that way.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 11:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 11:50:53 pmYou can create stuff/content without a lathe and you can make telephone calls without a stationary phone.There is no need for a "traditional" computer to create contents and many companies, e.g. Adobe, agrees as they have released iPad versions of their contents creating software.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 11:59:09 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on August 12, 2017, 11:56:24 pmExactly. The iPad version is hardly popular, because it is perceived as a watered down version of the real deal. You can, but most people that are interested in those kinds of things won't.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 12:18:17 am
content: With Windows, replies on this forum are quite easy,even editing within the reply box, but other forums (fora?) I frequent, such as "Whirlpool", "The Roar" (sports site), & a few others are not.With these, I sometimes resort to "cutting & pasting" the whole posting to Word, Word Pad, or whatever, doing my editing there, then "cutting & pasting" it back.This works pretty well with the iPad too, -------at least Notes has a reasonably big page to work with.Hey! I just mastered the "Magnifying Glass" thing------- not too easy with arthritic fingers, though!

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 12:28:37 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 11:59:09 pmI looked at the iPad version of Lightroom a while ago for a friend. Looked like an absolute toy compared to the PC* version. No local editing at all. Basically an entry-level tool with some integration with Adobe's online platform. Definitely positioned to use in addition to a PC version to do some quick sorting and tagging on the road, not a replacement. The same is true, to a slightly lesser extent, for Photoshop. The mobile tools mostly exist to help them sell their online platform (which you need to easily communicate with the full version of the tools on a PC). So I would argue the problem is not perception, but the actual quality.* I mean PC as in a personal computer that might run any OS, not an IBM product from 1981.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 12:52:59 am
content: Quote from: alm on August 13, 2017, 12:28:37 amYes, I meant to indicate actual quality too. Maybe my phrasing wasn't ideal. The perception is a result of the product being what it is.It is surprising, or maybe not surprising at all, that some tools that do not try to imitate a desktop program easily win the competition. Leonardo is an amazing tool for any artist that uses a pen and a tablet that does an excellent job leveraging the unique qualities of a touch screen tablet form factor with a pen while also taking advantage of the power of fully equipped pc hardware.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 12:54:49 am
content: I have tried using my iPad to make forum posts, but it is definitely painful compared to a proper computer. I find a Bluetooth keyboard helps enormously, but the lack of a mouse is still a killer. Stabbing the screen with a finger is absolutely not equivalent to the precision you get with a mouse.I think it ironic that iOS could easily provide Bluetooth mouse support and accurate text editing, but I have to assume Apple does not want to do this as it would cannibalize laptop sales.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 02:25:20 am
content: A lot of people don't know that if your iOS device supports force touch, you can force touch the keyboard and it turns into a trackpad. Very handy for text selections.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 02:30:02 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on August 13, 2017, 02:25:20 amOn iPhone only. On iPad, use two fingers on the keyboard to do the same.Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2017, 12:54:49 amApple has always been extremely adamant about the fact that they allow their products to cannibalize each other, because that's better than allowing a competitor to move in instead. We just now saw the full effect of this: about a week ago, the last iPod models were discontinued (other than the iPod touch, which is really just an iPhone without cellular), having been fully cannibalized by smartphones.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 03:13:23 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2017, 02:30:02 amI tried that.It doesn't seem to work on my wife's one (earlier model or software?).I'm using a desktop PC at the moment--------the ease of use is stunning after the iPad!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 04:21:49 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2017, 02:30:02 amOK, I didn't know about that. Just tried it and it does seem to work.Text editing is still a bit annoying with the iOS bugs, but it does make things better.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 06:50:26 am
content: Bluetooth keyboards are not that expensive nowadays.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 09:28:34 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2017, 04:21:49 amIt sure is. But again, given that on some websites, it works totally fine, I'm not sure how much of the blame falls on iOS bugs and how much falls on website programmers.Quote from: vk6zgo on August 13, 2017, 03:13:23 amAre you using a third party keyboard by chance? That would explain both the lack of two-finger support, and the wildly buggy text editing. It just dawned on me that the problems you describe are the same ones I had back when I was using SwiftKey, which I eventually abandoned because it was so damned buggy in so many apps. (For example, in Facebook apps, SwiftKey couldn't deal with when you tagged a name in a text, and would mangle the shit out of it.)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 11:41:07 am
content: Nope!Totally original iPadNo third party stuff of any kind.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 06:40:13 am
content: I definitely find text selection and editing on the iPad to be a royal bitch. Touch screens in general don't seem to like my fingers, and trying to edit text often gets me to the point of wanting to fling it across the room like a frisbee.Extra points for when I type up a bunch of stuff, venture momentarily to another window to look something up, then go back and it refreshes the page and flushes everything in the reply box.-Pat

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 03:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on August 14, 2017, 06:40:13 amFWIW, that's the iPad purging background processes from memory when memory is short. Generally less of a problem on newer models that have more RAM.(And yes, absolutely maddening when you've been working on a post...)

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 04:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 14, 2017, 03:38:16 pmAhhh... Nice to know. Thank you. That helps to explain why it seems to happen without any rhyme nor reason. I may go days or weeks without any issue, then other times it seems to happen frequently. I suppose I should reboot it more often to flush everything out.-Pat

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 04:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on August 14, 2017, 04:05:39 pmNot really!iOS memory and CPU management is really good; every effort to manually clean up just results in lower battery life and performance as you purge things from RAM that needn't be, necessitating them reloading from scratch unnecessarily . (DO NOT go and clear out the application switcher; you serve only to undermine yourself.)What you are probably noticing is background memory use by background tasks, like automatic updates, syncing, etc.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 05:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 12, 2017, 04:02:43 pmJust a followup: Since you mentioned it originally, I've really been noticing performance problems here on the forums on iPad, resulting in the keyboard not registering many taps, registering spurious ones, and the autocorrect engine falling behind and failing to work (basically, it just stalls for seconds at a time), resulting in mangled input. It works fine in other apps. I wonder if there was a recent change to the forum theme that's done something, or if a new Safari or WebKit bug in a recent iOS update is to blame? It used to work fine.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 12:51:25 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 14, 2017, 05:29:35 pmIt's always been a bitch for me. Honestly, I think it's all the animated GIF smileys that appear in the edit window. Safari has *always* had poor handling of animated GIFs (it's gotten a tad better recently, but still not as good as other browsers; I remember when a page of animated GIFs would peg a quad core CPU at 400%).Seriously, you guys should try Tapatalk. It solves everything.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 01:44:34 am
content: I have tried it. Couldn't stand it. I hate having a different UI from the real website.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 01:02:47 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 15, 2017, 01:44:34 amPersonally, given the option between a desktop webpage, mobile optimized webpage or a native tablet app, I'd take the native app every day. (Especially when, like in the case of Tapatalk, you get *more* features compared to the webpage alone.)Personally, I think most forum UIs are atrocious and stuck in the early-2000's, design wise. (Though some forums do have nice UIs; I'm particularly fond of the Something Awful Forum's User Control Panel; being able to follow threads, track replies, manage PMs, view unread posts, etc. all from a single page is *very* handy and one of the reasons I like Tapatalk, as it provides similar functionality).I browse 4 or 5 forums regularly, using wildly different themes and forum engines. Having all those forums in one place, with a single UI makes it less jarring when switching between them.Plus unified reply, activity and PM notifications makes keeping up with threads and users incredibly easy.To each their own though. If the webpage works for you, more power to you!

author: ivaylo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 06:33:43 am
content: It's you. No problem whatsoever posting on this forum (emoticons, pictures and everything) from an iPad. Like others said, most content on the web nowadays is created on mobile devices. "But I can't use AutoCAD" - forums aren't AutoCAD... Seen a millenial type on their phone, BTW?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 03:36:45 am
content: Across the board, i avoid Safari on the pad and phone (Chrome)To the poster that suggestedTapatalk... to each his own. Never again for me, I tried it and wastotallyunimpressed.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 03:29:28 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on August 17, 2017, 03:36:45 amI decided to give it another try, and quickly realized why I gave up on it the first time. It kinda sorta makes sense on iPhone, but on iPad, Tapatalk is just absurd. In landscape orientation -- the most common one for an iPad on any kind of stand -- it literally wastes half the screen on margins. And it's less dense in general too, requiring me to scroll FAR more than using the web page.And it doesn't give you tools to insert formatting (!!!), which is extremely cumbersome to type on a soft keyboard.It doesn't show user location flags - a useful touch on eevblog forums, doesn't have a simple, clean equivalent to the "unread replies" page, has trouble with some hyperlinks, zooms pictures to fit the screen (by cropping what doesn't fit)... the annoyances just go on and on.Finally, it abuses push notifications, IMHO.Nope, nope, nope, deleted again.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 05:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: ivaylo on August 16, 2017, 06:33:43 amThat last bit is an amazing sight, but I recently tried using this forum on my Android phone to search for a post and the forum search required me to enter a Captia AND do some math

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 06:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on August 18, 2017, 05:40:47 pmBy some definitions, I (1980) juuuust made the cut to be considered a millennial. But lemme tell you, my mom was always faster at typing on phones!

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 10:18:22 pm
content: Both my kids are from the 90's - and they both realise a laptop / PC is far better for many purposes.A smartphone is a 'communicator', a tablet is for research and consumption.A computer is needed for generating and managing information.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2017, 03:29:28 pmI don't know why you'd use it in landscape orientation, but you can easily collapse the sidebar that appears by swiping. (Most people uses tablets exclusively in portrait mode when consuming text; landscape is basically only good for videos.)User locations are shown by tapping on a user's name. (You get their entire profile as well, along with threads they've posted in and so on.)I do agree about the lack of text formatting. That said, I mostly use markup syntax these days, even when on my laptop. It's human readable, even if the particular forum doesn't support it. (*Bold*, /italic/, _underline_)As for push notifications, actually, it doesn't abuse them at all. In fact, it gives you quite a bit of control over them. More than most apps, in fact. (You can mute each thread you follow, individually if you wish. You can also turn on/off what generates the notifications, globally, in the user settings panel.)I have no idea what you're talking about with URLs or cropping pictures. URLs open just fine for me and pictures show up full size, uncropped. (Though, if you have image previews enabled in your user settings, browsing unread threads will show a cropped portion of the latest image to be posted in a particular thread, but that's just a preview, the image shows fine in the thread itself.)Like I said, if the web page works for you, more power to you. To each his own.However, I think 70% of your Tapatalk problems are PEBKAC errors. When you reinstalled it, you went into it trying to find problems, instead of figuring out how to use it and discovering solutions. Remember, Problems are just Solutions in work clothes.The More You Know ~~~*

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2017, 01:23:57 am
content: @timb, you are certainly entitled to your positive feelings about Tapatalk, but to be honest, your post was explaining how to work around some of the issues that others don't like. They simply shouldn't be there!I think many issues which i saw, came about because I regularly use several different brands/types if device at different times to read those forums.Push notifications was also a real issue for me. Every time I opened my device on many forums, Tapatalk would pop up dialogs - telling me the world would be a better place if I used their app. Deleted, unlinked, uninstalled - and in a couple of cases, had to stop following those forums!

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2017, 08:17:00 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 12, 2017, 09:50:42 pmFor browser sync, Firefox Sync. For FS, Syncthing (sort of Dropbox).Both are compstible with all major OSs, including mobile ones.I use them on Windows, Linux and mobile since more than a year and they do a really good job.Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2017, 10:51:14 am
content: Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amHuh? There's no sidebar. (Swiping from the left goes back, swiping from top, bottom, and right all invoke their respective iOS system-level functions.) Are you running a different version of Tapatalk than what's available on the Apple App Store??Here's what the forum listing and a post look like:For comparison, the same thing in the web view:Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amAside from that Ialreadyexplained the why (a stand), I have no idea where you get the idea that tablets are mostly used for reading in portrait orientation. Nearly all tablet cases on the market have landscape-only stands. MS Surface tablets have built-in stands -- in landscape. Do a google image search for "iPad case" and look at how few of them support portrait orientation. Go to a cafe and look at how people are using their tablets.Moreover, landscape is a fully supported orientation in tablets; you're basically saying we shouldn't use it. My iPad gets used probably 99% in landscape, and probably 50% of the time with an external bluetooth keyboard. (RSI problems mean I really can't use the software keyboard comfortably.)Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amYet another tap to do something that in the web view simply takes a glance. (Also, it shows adifferentlocation. The web view shows a flag icon for the user's selected country. Tapatalk shows the contents of the Location (city) field.)Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amI'm just perplexed that they haven't implemented it, since it's such low-hanging fruit. I can understand them not specifically supporting the custom multimeter, tongue-at-the-right-angle, and beating-the-dead-horse smileys, but not even bold and italic??Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amI agree that it has fine control, but its defaults are absurd.Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amThere was a URL to a PDF in some thread, and it refused to load in the Tapatalk browser. It loaded just fine in Safari (in fact, it loaded just fine when I used Tapatalk's "show web view" function to view the forum, and then tapped the link within that web view), so it wasn't an error in the post, it was something with Tapatalk's parsing. Most URLs work fine, but this one screwed something up. I wish I could find it.As for images: the inline thumbnails are fine. If you tap to zoom in, it zooms to fill the screen, and you can pan, but if you pinch to zoom out (or in, for that matter), it bounces back when you release!!Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amThat's rather presumptuous. I didn't go inlookingfor errors, I went in and tried to use it, since some people raved about it, and it could have improved since I last looked at it. Then I simply enumerated the pain points I encountered. (Believe me, if I had gone in actuallylooking, I'd have produced a rather different report; I have a professional background in usability. Looking for usability problems is referred to as "expert review", and it's not what I did.)Is it really so hard for you to respect that it simply doesn't meet everyone's needs, and not belittle us for wanting something more capable?Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amI don't want to have to work around things. They should be self-explanatory! (And since the full web view works as expected with few surprises, it works better for me. I don't have to remember which features are missing.)Quote from: timb on August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 amI dunno if you thought you were being cute there or something, but that's actually just rude.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2017, 11:58:57 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on August 18, 2017, 10:18:22 pmSure. Just because someone is young doesn't mean they won't recognize the strengths and weaknesses of different tools. (Anyone who thinks otherwise is really taking an awfully simplistic view on things.)What did surprise me, honestly, is the degree to which the iPad has displaced my MacBook, in particular once I paired the iPad with a good hardware keyboard. Most of my casual web browsing, social media, forum participation, and telecommunication (texting, voice and video calls) have migrated to the iPad. Despite the iPad having a smaller screen, its screen is of higher quality in every respect, making reading more relaxing. I bought the iPad without knowing what I needed it for, or even really wanting it, just because it was on sale for so cheap (less than what the same model was selling forusedon the open market) that if I didn't like it, I could sell it for a profit. It really surprised me how much I like it.However, to an extent, the iPad displacing the MacBook says more about how I used the MacBook than anything else — all my heavy lifting (design work, hardcore research, photo editing, arduino coding, office tasks, etc) is done on my Mac Pro desktop with its 27" screen. That stuff was rarely done on the MacBook anyway, it was used primarily for communication and media consumption.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2017, 08:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 12, 2017, 09:50:42 pmThere is if you change your perspective.Google Chrome has a 'Tabs on Other devices' feature. Works on all platforms Win/OSX/Linux.For me the OS is irrelevant these days, I swap between Win, OSX and Linux all of the time - although generally my Linux use is via ssh/bash.I don't use any of the Apple tools or apps like Safari or Mail, as I find them frustrating to use in general - and they don't sync up with my cross platform 'world'.I don't use iCloud for the same reason - it's not cross platform so is useless to me.It is important to have Safari around to test websites though. I recently discovered Safari still doesn't support native HTML5 datetime controls - everyone else now does - which was a major PITA.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2017, 08:48:08 pm
content: Apple's cross-device integration goes well beyond just browser tabs and photos.I've never understood people that do everything in the browser. Not saying it's wrong, I just don't get it; to me native apps almost always beat web. Not to mention the myriad things that just don't exist as web apps.I will share your frustration, however, at Safari no longer being at the vanguard of new web standards, as it was in earlier times. Safari is a great everyday browser (stable, fast, and energy efficient), but it has kinda stagnated in terms of adding support for new HTML features.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2017, 09:19:09 pm
content: Yes - and Chromes x-device integration also goes further too. At least it goes far enough for me.I don't do everything in the browser, just email/calendar really. The payback for having online email is really significant and for me outweighs the downsides. Basically I just got tired of constantly re-setting things up after reinstalls etc and making the same change on multiple computers.For application development I work in native tools only (well java is native enough) - I use the command line extensively as it is common across all platforms. I'm a java developer and of course that is x-platform. It means I can switch from OSX to Win7 to Win10 to AWS Linux servers seamlessly. e.g. My Win10 laptop fell over the other week and I was able to switch to the OSX one and be back up and running quickly.Not being critical but I've observed many EE's seem to be quite negative on anything cloud in general. However, from the perspective of software development on any scale it just makes life so much easier and more practical.Yeah I don't get why Safari doesn't add those new features. It is finally being done 'right' and they are dragging their heels which is daft.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2017, 10:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2017, 09:19:09 pmWhat else does Chrome sync beyond tabs, history, and (I assume) passwords? Extensions? (I only use Chrome as a backup browser, so I haven't even played with its syncing.)Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2017, 09:19:09 pmAs for me, I've never liked webmail. Though they have gotten far better over the years, they still fall quite short of providing the user experience of a native client. What I did say "good riddance" to ages ago was that cursed POP email, what a f**king nightmare that was if you had more than one device. IMAP, baby!Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2017, 09:19:09 pmWell, to an extent, isn't that a consequence of running OSes that make system migration dauntingly difficult? One of the things Apple has done exceedingly well for a long time now is system migration, where — regardless of whether the source is a working device or a backup of a failed one — the migration assistant literally configures your new systemidenticallyto the old, down to nearly the smallest detail, such that you can pick up where you left off in just a few hours. (You can also let iCloud sync account settings across devices, so that if you e.g. update the changed server address of your IMAP email account on one device, that change will propagate to the other devices.)And things like Dropbox work well for keeping documents in sync.Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2017, 09:19:09 pmI can imagine that for (at minimum many types of) development, this is absolutely true. Many other use scenarios unfortunately end up being much more platform-specific.Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2017, 09:19:09 pmTotally agree with you. But to each his own, I suppose!I also think there's also quite a cultural difference, too. I'm an American living in Switzerland, and in general, I find the Swiss (and Europeans in general) to befarmore skeptical of cloud services than Americans. They are more concerned about privacy in general, and see cloud services as riskier in that regard. Again, not saying one side or the other is right, just an observation.Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2017, 09:19:09 pmYup. In the early days, Safari was really ahead of the pack in adding long-needed things, like betterusefultext effects, graphics properties, advanced widgets, etc. I am truly baffled that Apple has let Google become the leader in this, especially given that Chrome is OSS, and that with the common ancestry between Safari and Chrome, migrating those new things from the Chrome codebase should be comparatively easy.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2017, 11:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 21, 2017, 10:24:53 pmHad to look myself, probably the main ones are Apps (i.e. in-browser apps like Postman, Lastpass etc for example), Settings, History, Extensions.It is really about buying into an 'ecosystem' - to work the way I do I had to sell my soul to Google about 10 years agoI don't want two of ecosystems which are not compatible with each other, so I must deliberately avoid getting too deep into the iCloud/OSX world.Quote from: tooki on August 21, 2017, 10:24:53 pmYep IMAP is way better, man the pain I suffered trying to prise people from POP - back in the day I had to block it on the server to force people to switch to ensure their email wasn't lost when their laptop died/got nicked/fell in the drink...I don't file email, just leave it in the inbox and use search. Some people can't stand that modus operandi but it does make gmail nicer.Quote from: tooki on August 21, 2017, 10:24:53 pmThat is good, however it's not x-platform and so not really useful to me. I only use one Mac laptop and a collection of non Mac stuff and haven't had to migrate my Mac yet. With Chrome the browser sets itself up on a new machine once I install Chrome and login, which is not the same thing but does save quite a bit of setup time at the end of the day.Obviously the unix OS's have this type of functionality by design (at user level) but not as user-friendly and not system wide. I used to scp my home directory around machines.Yeah I've used dropbox, good for quick sharing/syncing. I tend to use SpiderOak more now for syncing as it is always there on all my machines as I use it for backup. Its bloody brilliant at backup. Dropbox is better for sharing but not so good at the backup.Quote from: tooki on August 21, 2017, 10:24:53 pmYeah, seems to me that EE software is often Windows only. That is actually one of the things which drove me to get a Windows laptop again, otherwise I would have gone back to Linux. Prior to that I was on OSX and prior to that I had Linux laptops. Having used linux as a primary OS for many years I made the call to not swim against the tide this time and just suck it up and get a Windows laptop for Windows stuff.Also I do think MS have turned a corner on their old irritating attitude of 'everything must be windows'. For example I use the newish MS Linux/Ubuntu subsystem within Windows 10 all the time.Quote from: tooki on August 21, 2017, 10:24:53 pmYep I think you are right - and Switzerland is a great place too.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 12:27:18 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2017, 11:34:29 pmFor sure. For most things, it's exceedingly rare that I can't find a great native Mac application. But engineering is an exception. (Even the ones that do exist are often poorly-done ports of Windows or legacy UNIX apps that don't even attempt a fleeting resemblance to native Mac apps.)Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2017, 11:34:29 pmTotally. I was never a rabid Microsoft hater*, but certainly saw how their Borg-like "you will be assimilated" attitude led to them pushing and shoving their way into businesses they should never have entered, like a bull in a china shop. That and that I did object to the slimy business practices they used back in the day to force Windows onto every PC, making it impossible for any alternative OSes for x86 hardware to take a foothold. And those things, which many people find unsavory, honestly did a disservice to the Microsoft products that actually were (and are) legitimately superior on their own merits. I am really, really glad to see the Microsoft of the past few years becoming a bit more humble, and working harder to make its products work well within the larger IT industry, as well as focusing on quality more than in the past.*Though I suppose one could argue that I am a rabid hater of Windows (and Linux on the desktop), simply because I consider them to have really lousy usability.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 10:46:33 am
content: Microsoft stuff is only superior until it breaks. Then it's the worst. I mean literally eye gouging pain. I have lost days of my life to their shitty QA and general engineering.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 11:15:35 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 22, 2017, 10:46:33 amDespite being more of an Apple guy, I have to sorta defend MS here: Their software may have issues, but it's far better than a lot of other software!I used to work for a company whose product interfaces with word processors (Word and OO.o/LO Writer, plus a smattering of LaTeX editors) to automate formatting (citations and bibliographies, to be exact). Now, while we did have the occasional snafu with Word, it largely worked, and worked reliably. Writer, on the other hand... what a nightmare. Not only was their scripting API poorly documented in comparison, it also did not work as documented (API changes from version to version, but docs not updated), when it worked at all. In one instance, a minor point-update to Writer completely broke its scripting (not just with our product; it broke it completely). It wasn't that there was some strange edge case that occurred under a rare constellation of circumstances -- they hadn't tested itat al, and scripting was completely disabled.In contrast, Word's APIs were not only well documented and reliable, they were also stable over time, not requiring changes for new versions of Word.In a nutshell, I think MS Office is actually quite well engineered and tested. It's proven to be quite reliable over a very long time. (It's just a powerful, complex beast that exceeds what most people need, though for someone like me, who was at that software company primarily to do technical writing, I really did use advanced Word features all the time, things that are still lacking in all the competition.)Anyhow, as for Microsoft's QA and engineering: what actually amazes me is that (excepting Office), Microsoft's software is so baddespitethe fact that Microsoft is actually a model citizen in software engineering practices. Their ratio of testers to developers varies between 2:1 and 1:1 (yes, for some things they've got twice as many testers as devs; in contrast, Google hasat most1:1, but more commonly far fewer testers than devs). They (at least in the past) also had a low ratio of devs to project managers whose job it was to coordinate the development and testing, so that the devs and testers didn't have to do waste time on admin. MS's usability testing methodologies are actually quite good*.Yet despite this, the products that emerge don't reflect the effort that went into them. (Like Windows 8. What the hell were they thinking?) Often, compromises made at the altar of backward-compatibility-at-all-cost ended up causing huge issues down the line.*For example, the development process that led to the Ribbon, much hated by those who refused to give it a chance, was a model of good practices, resulting in a product that actually works very well for most people, even those who dislike it, as borne out by usability testing. The genesis was earlier: they used years worth of usage telemetry from Office 2003 to figure out how users actually used Office, like what sequences of commands they used, which commands were often followed by an undo, etc. And the document for the Ribbon UI guidelines is fantastic, covering in excruciating detail how the Ribbon controls must work, so that there are no inconsistencies between applications. (Historically, inconsistency between apps has been, and remains, a huge problem in the Windows world.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 11:23:56 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 22, 2017, 10:46:33 amI will spew fire at one thing though: the Windows Registry. That has got to be the singularly worst design decision ever made in a major software product. Whoever came up with that needs to be condemned to eternity in IT hell, i.e. first-level support at a company where all the employees and customers are of the caliber ofGeorgeandPaula.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 11:31:06 am
content: The registry is bloody amazing and a nice idea if I'm honest. It is far better than property lists or 6 million dotfiles crapped in your home directory as it's a lot more mobile. That's the one design decision I will say is a good one. I rather like it. It only breaks when people do silly things in it and that includes vendors.I disagree with Office. I maintain a very large document authoring and versioning system that plugs into word via VSTO (half mil LOC c#) and the whole shebang is a pile of shit that barely works. Look at Word.SaveAs vs Word.SaveAs2 vs Word.Save for example. The whole thing is a smelly poop. We have had to wrap every damn COM call in an exception wrapper to attempt to catch obscure things and react to them. Then there's the mess of trying to make that work across hundreds of different corporate proxy implementations because MSFT are smoking crack with WPAD etc.I'm not going to even mention Office 364.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 12:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 22, 2017, 11:31:06 amIt's a nice idea on paper, but it's responsible for HUGE issues in practice. It created a single point of failure so bad that MS had to virtualize the entire Registry to keep userspace apps from borking the OS entirely.No, you don't want plists and dotfiles strewn everywhere, either. But that's not the only alternative to the registry.Honestly, I haven't seen anyone come up with something as elegant as Apple-née-NeXT: the hierarchy of Library folders. It's strictly defined, it's easy to use for both developers (and advanced users; normal users never see them), and it's reasonably easy to fix things when they do go wrong. But being folders, it also affords flexibility to developers that the Registry does not. (For example, apps can use the Application Support subfolder to store a folder with support files, as opposed to having to have those support folders littering the Programs directory like on Windows.)I will add that a related, though technically separate, issue is that many of the things stored in the Registry are things that shouldn't be defined statically at all. My go-to example of this is file associations. In Windows, there's a 1:1 association between a filetype (which itself is identified solely by file ending) and a single application (identified by its path) that "owns" that filetype, and that association is written by an installer or an application itself. Often, there is contention for a filetype, leading to a poor user experience.In contrast, the Mac's Launch Services database is generated dynamically based on the applications currently available (meaning installed on the boot disk, or present on another disk or a network share). Applications include inside them a listing of its native/preferred file types, as well as of non-preferred file types it can open. Launch Services compiles these on the fly into an association for the default application, while maintaining a list of alternative applications to show in the Open With command. (For example, Photoshop will declare PSD as its native file type, but will also declare that it can open JPEG, TIFF, etc. Meanwhile, another photo editor might use PNG as its native file type, but will also declare that it can open PSD, JPEG, etc. By default, then, double-clicking a PSD file will open it in Photoshop, but right-clicking and choosing Open With will show you Photoshop at the top, and then your other photo editors, Preview, etc.)The default application is selected based on some algorithm that considers the location, version, etc. You know how I said Launch Services is dynamic? It will literally update the database the instant another disk or network share is mounted. (Note that while the database is cached to disk for performance reasons across reboots, it's fundamentally dynamic, and the cache file can be deleted with no deleterious effects.)(Everything it figures out algorithmically can be manually overridden, by the way. You can change the default application for a file type, or you can also set an individual file to open in a particular application when double-clicked, even if another application is the default for that file type. So you can have JPEGs open in Preview by default, but have specific JPEGs open in Photoshop, others in Affinity Photo, etc.)Notably absent: the ability for an application to go in and overwrite another app's file associations. (Because the associations are a property of the applications, not of the operating system.)(On the Mac, a file's filetype and "creator" application can be saved separately as extended attributes in the metadata, so that if the extension is lost, it can still be opened, while the "creator" tells the OS to open it with a particular application, as explained above.)Quote from: bd139 on August 22, 2017, 11:31:06 amI'm not a developer so I can't really respond to your specific issues, I just know what the developers at that company always told me: that everything else was much, much worse.Quote from: bd139 on August 22, 2017, 11:31:06 amWell, that's your own fault for choosing Office 365's l'il sibling who's short a chromosome!That said (being that I haven't worked at that software company since 2012), what's wrong with Office 365? The only thing I'd heard was an issue for software devs was when they were using that App-V app streaming as Office Ready to Run (or whatever it was called), which didn't allow add-ons because the entire app runs in a virtualized environment that cannot see the local OS at all. But I think they stopped offering that, and now it's just regular local installs, just with subscription pricing instead of purchased licenses.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 01:08:59 pm
content: Yeah MacOS gets it right there. It's nice to be able to use "open" from a terminal as well.Office 365 client-side is fine. No problems there. Even App-V streaming was fine at the end of the day. The big problem is the server side of things and the authentication. The killer problems we've had are that our company domain has been around for at least two decades before Office 365 came on the scene so we have lots of disparate personal microsoft accounts, Office 365's AD and Azure AD to deal with as well as on site AD which are all tied together. Some days things just break without human intervention and we get 500 people who can't get their email. Then there's the turd that is formerly known as ForeFront which has been crudely bolted into O365 quietly which is responsible for email delivery problems, disappearing emails and attachments and all sorts of shenangans. We have to hire three guys to look after Office 365 whereas we had to hire two to look after Exchange and AD.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 01:17:11 pm
content: Understood. Does MS no longer offer non-subscription-authenticated site licenses like they did before 365?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 03:18:25 pm
content: Unfortunately not. They're tied into periodic activation via the web. When you sign into O365, you're signing into your subscription account as well.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 06:41:48 pm
content: I figured as much. Having worked for a software company, I really, really understand why developers want everyone to always use the latest version, and the motivation to change from yearly spurts of upgrade income to an ongoing revenue stream. The objection I have, which I suspect is precisely the kind of thing you run into, is the oft unreliable activation systems themselves.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 07:06:41 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 22, 2017, 03:18:25 pmWelcome to the world where software isn't a product any more, but a service. Unfortunately, Microsoft jumped on that band wagon when Satya Nadella took over. Maybe it is prudent to explore that path, as the other giants like Facebook and Google are highly successful and the traditional market has been slumping, but in true Microsoft fashion they go all-in and leave people dependent on their software with little choice. People build their companies and infrastructure around these products and if the rug suddenly gets pulled from under them, it's going to hurt in major ways whatever you choose to do next.That is a shame too, as their current range of products really is great in corporate environments. It's just that how it's structured and licensed can make it hard to swallow.Quote from: tooki on August 22, 2017, 06:41:48 pmFrom the client's perspective, it's not an obvious choice at all. You make your business fully dependent on the continued services of another. If that were to be the case with one of the packages essential to your operation, that might be doable. The problem is that everyone is jumping in and that you now need to manage a whole herd of services and associated risks. Especially offline applications can steadily run for years without trouble if it is a product and not a service. I have trouble understanding why any firm would want all their CAD projects, and the infrastructure to access them, hosted elsewhere. If that is your bread and butter, it seems a huge risk to take, both from a perspective of protecting your IP and service availability.Added to that is that your environment is continuously changing. Testing becomes a nightmare and, in practice, sometimes happens in production and employees get confused or even need to be retrained. Simple things like changing the position or availability of buttons can be a real hassle. Even though you can defer upgrades and all that, it's not quite the same as testing and using a known platform.You surrender an essential bit of control to parties outside of your control. In the case of Microsoft, that party is big enough to be completely impartial to the demise of your company. I am the first to admit that self hosted applications also require updates and carry other risks, but they seem to be a different order of magnitude.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 12:35:41 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 22, 2017, 07:06:41 pmFunnily enough I happened to visit an IT consulting company yesterday who run _entirely_ from the cloud on a collection of services.They have zero onsite servers and no IT support staff.They have about 100 employees spread over two offices. Not judging that as right or wrong but that is what they do and they are happy with it and believe they are spending less than they would be in a traditional model.It is a trade-off. On site has advantages, cloud has advantages. Both have disadvantages and both have risks. I don't believe on-site is inherently less risky than a cloud server.Both have costs. Maybe you could gold plate your on-site stuff so it is super coolio awesome rock-solid no matter what happens, but how much would it cost and how long would it take and what could you have done instead with that time and money?Both types of environments change underneath you without notice - assuming you are in a decent size organisation. Been there, done that got the tee shirt.One thing that is very clear to me is that physical boxes take significantly longer to provision. Sometimes time is money and that one area where cloud services win hands down.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 01:13:25 am
content: Isn't it funny how we have come full circle.Back in the 60s and 70s the arguments were about having your own computer in house (either a mainframe or the smaller "mini" computers from the likes of DEC) or renting computing from a timeshare service.For large corporate users today the arguments are essentially the same, and come down to cost efficiency vs control.In the interim the PC revolution temporarily freed many of us from having to rent computing, finding a one time payment far easier to swallow than an endless revenue outflow. This approach caused such a leap in capability that the HW and SW leaked back into the corporate world. The free ride is ending everywhere but the Linux world as software developers move to subscription models. This conflict between users and developers will continue and force both sides to examine their real needs vs their wants. The frightening thing is that the only thing I can think of that is a true ongoing need for users is protection from various malware threats. Developers face a strong temptation to do a less than perfect job of fulfilling this need so that the need remains strong.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 01:55:34 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 22, 2017, 07:06:41 pmTo be clear, I think you're confounding cloud computing and subscription pricing, which are very diffferent things, despite having a few similarities. We were discussing subscription pricing primarily, and the unfortunate issues surrounding the activation. It's still, however, software running locally with local files.I'm not sure what exactly you are claiming isn't obvious to a client -- I didn't claim anything was obvious to the client. I said that it's very clear whysoftware companieswant to move to subscription pricing. Customers frequently fail to understand it and feel very attacked by subscription pricing, but having seen the nightmare that is customers who refuse to upgrade, and thus continue to cause a support burden because they want to run ancient software whose bugs were long ago fixed in newer versions, or because they want to run ancient app versions on new OSes, or your latest app release on a prehistoric OS, I am ultimately in favor of licensing that encourages or requires users to upgrade constantly.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 22, 2017, 07:06:41 pmI'm not sure whether you're arguing for or against change. I maintain that resisting change means building up an ever-growing technical (and user-training) debt, which eventually will need to be repaid -- with interest.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 22, 2017, 07:06:41 pmThe risks are so different as to be difficult to compare (there's tons of risk in using an ancient third-party application that's long been abandoned by its developer). But for sure, the single-source nature of both cloud computing and subscription-software activation are a huge risk, and one that the software vendors, frankly, have yet to address in an adequate manner IMHO. (I've read about graphic designers being unable to work for a week at a time because their Adobe suite refused to activate properly, despite having a valid subscription. That's absolutely inexcusable IMHO.)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 02:43:55 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on August 23, 2017, 12:35:41 amIf you read one of my previous comments, you'll see that I've seen multiple companies switch back to on premise hosting after the migration to Office 365 didn't work out for them because they experienced too many problems with performance, outages and other issues. Such a migration is an involved and expensive procedure in companies the size they were. Not something you do unless you have to. I will not claim this represents most users or companies, but it does illustrate that it is not for everyone and that theory and practice do not always line up as expected.Please note that I have also stated that there is a time and a place for cloud solutions. It is a valuable tool that can be massively advantageous in the right circumstances. However, everything seems to get forced into the cloud model, whether it is appropriate or not, and companies are made to depend entirely on cloud services when the need seems absent. For instance, I cannot imagine being an engineering firm and having all your and your client's IP tied up in a cloud service. Even with a good, independent backup, you won't have the infrastructure or training required to continue business if anything were to happen to that cloud service. How much of an impact even a short outage can have was demonstrated by the Blackberry server issues of 2012, with many companies switching platforms because of it.How can a company of that size have zero support staff? Even if the servers and services are fully operated by another party, there is still the need for local support and maintenance of client workstations and the network. With around 100 users, that is not a negligible task.Quote from: tooki on August 23, 2017, 01:55:34 amCompanies are currently pushing hard to tie subscriptions to the cloud. That is their way of combating piracy and increasing their control over the end user. Local software is rapidly becoming just a front end for cloud services. Autodesk with its Fusion 360 software is a good example of this. But of course you are right that they are two distinct things.I wasn't disagreeing with you regarding the desire of companies to push for subscription pricing. However, I do think the reasoning is too self-centred. A company that's only focussed on improving things for itself will not survive in the long run. A mutually beneficial relationship with the customer is what forges long term relationships.I also feel there is a middle ground between running ancient applications on a prehistoric OS and constantly forcing a user to update to new versions. Installing security updates is good, but continuously forcing users to migrate to yet another version is less ideal. I think communicating the product lifecycle to your customers is good. They know what to expect and can plan budget and training accordingly. This is what Microsoft did in the Gates and Ballmer era. Now, there are no versions as such and things are much more fluid. You get whatever you get, each release gets one year of support and you just have to deal with it. Added to that, the mechanism has already been abused a few times to push the Microsoft agenda, and the end user is left with a sour taste.Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad. Microsoft does some pretty amazing things and the effectiveness of much of the software is undeniable. It's just that I think that this push for the cloud without reasonable alternatives is a mistake. Inevitably, a new balance will be reached. Hopefully this will happen without too much friction along the way.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2017, 04:10:28 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 23, 2017, 01:13:25 amExactly