Simple 230V AC to DC converter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ricko_uk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pm
content: Hi,I need to build a 230V AC (mains) to 230V DC converter. It needs to be simple and reliable so the obvious initial thought was just a bridge rectifier with massive capacitors to smooth it out but the output would not be flat DC, it would obviously have smoothed out peaks every cycle.I remember seeing many years ago an extremely simple circuit that was providing very smooth DC output and at the time I thought it was very clever solution. But cannot find it anymore. It wasnotjust a rectifier and massive caps. It had a few extra components but less than a handful. I googled it for days but cannot find that circuit anymore. Any suggestions?It is to be used only in the UK and in controlled environment by an experienced engineer So the only safety required is just a fuse for over-current protection.The specs are as follows:- 230V AC to DC- 5A- when the load is on the voltage should be as steady as possible. This is the most important spec.- the load is only resistive (heating elements)- the heating element itself has a thermostat integrated in it to turn it on and off. It switches on/off every 20-30 seconds- voltage dips transients when turning on and off are acceptable (perhaps an inrush current limiter on the output might help improve those too?)Does anybody have any clever suggestion/idea?Thank you as always

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 11:01:33 pm
content: I'm unable to see the point of this.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 11:22:13 pm
content: what's the point of dc for a heating element?

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 11:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmHeating elements donotusually need AC-DC, the thermal inertia is enough, especially if this turns on/off every 20-30 seconds.Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmWhat you describe is nowa voltage regulator.Do you want to regulate voltage, or power ? Does the heater resistance change matter to you ?If you want to regulate voltage, there are some choices :Linear is simple, but at 5A a linear control of only 12V (5%) change, means 60 WATTS of heat loss in the regulator.Switch mode is much less lossy, but a 230V 5A buck regulator is non-trivial.Alternatives are Phase control of the AC mains. Here, you can regulate average power/voltage, with some lag.You pick some control range ( eg +/- 5%) and then regulate at -5% for ideal mains and -10% for Mains +5% etceg if the mains changes, you can correct that on thenextmains cycle.Half cycle pairs should have identical phase angles, to keep the mains load free from DC.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 11:48:33 pm
content: Going DC for touchable parts CAN make sense, IF done correctly- so you would have to stay below the accepted limits for safety voltage, meaning that you would need a transformer for stepping down the 230VAC.If I understand UK regulations correctly after a very short google search, this would be below 75V DC.If this is of no concern, and you simply need some nice heater somewhere, it is also easier to switch a AC load than a DC load. Also you can use a simple circuit breaker (RCCB) as overcurrent protection, if there is enough space.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 02:41:00 am
content: I agree with the others about DC being irrelevant for heating elements, and suggest a ferroresonant transformer for regulating the voltage.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 02:46:08 am
content: Quote from: amyk on January 06, 2024, 02:41:00 amwhat's the point of regulating the voltage if it has a thermostat?

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 02:55:16 am
content: whats the point in all of this ...

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 04:20:56 am
content: I envisage the heating elements are being use for some kooky free energy experiment or health quackery device, hence the requirement for DC.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 05:08:17 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on January 06, 2024, 02:46:08 amAsk random questions, get random answers

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 05:08:35 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on January 06, 2024, 04:20:56 amProbably:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ac-infrared-sauna-heaters-driven-with-dc/

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 05:30:33 am
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmMy proposal is a power factor correction boost regulator. You can either build a reference design from a datasheet, or purchase a module and equip it with the appropriate heatsink & capacitor.https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/mc34262-d.pdfhttps://product.tdk.com/system/files/dam/doc/product/power/switching-power/ac-dc-converter/catalog/pf1500b_e.pdfEither way, it's not "simple".Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmYou could be referring to LM317/7812 circuit variants:http://web.mit.edu/sp.716/www/datasheets/AN-103.pdf

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 05:51:19 am
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmIf you use anything other than a PFC SMPS you're going to have terrible efficiency and/or power factor issues. Converting 230VAC to DC using simple systems like rectifiers and capacitors will necessarily result in the input current being pulsed. Regulation other than by switching will result in heating losses. The circuit you are thinking of may be a capacitor multiplier, but it while it may smooth out your DC power it won't solve any of the other problems.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 09:17:16 am
content: As Someone already pointed out, this is a complete nonsense discussion."Driving an IR heater by DC to reduce "the magnetic field" is the intention. Yeah, whatever. Don't forget to install that aluminium foil to protect you from orgone.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 12:33:36 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmAnd you are 100%, like 200% sure and certain that this thermostat definitely accepts DC? I mean, mechanical thermostats that accept 230VAC cost like $1, while the DC ones cost hundreds of $, if you are able to find any. Driving DC into a normal thermostat causes a fire, nearly 100% guaranteed.I get you are into some kind of new age nonsense bullshit, but what you are now doing is highly risky, you are very likely to burn the houses of your victims down. Please stop.Alternatively, I think we should start gathering some information about this guy and report to authorities to prevent loss of life.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 12:55:48 pm
content: just bolt a 240v dynamo onto a 240v AC motor,2 components job done

author: eutectique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 02:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmDo I see contradicting "requirements" ?

author: Spar59
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 11:04:35 pm
content: I think I am pretty much in agreement with others in that this is a pointless exercise but there nis an important point I haven't yet spotted:Applying 230V aC to a simple rectifier (presumably a bridge) and smoothing capacitor circuit will NOT get you 230V DC on the capacitor!The capacitor will charge to the peak value of the AC wave i.e. 325V, the actual waveform of the output would be a steady 325V DC with huge capacitor and little load but more typically when load is applied it would start from that peak of 340V and ramp downwards until it reaches the same value as the rising value of the next AC half cycle at which point it will track it back to the peak (well almost track it due to rectifier drops and charging path resistance).

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 07:53:56 am
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmI agree with others that the project is pointless and a waste of time.BUTThe simple way to meet "the most important spec" is to filter the rectified voltage with a pi filter with capacitors and inductors (one or more sections).

author: Johnny B Good
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 01:47:10 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmAs many have already questioned the whole point of this exercise, I have to wonder what it is you're trying to achieve. The only thing that makes any sense is that you're trying to test and verify the actual heat output from these (1KW ?) thermostatically controlled heaters. For this, all you need is a suitable variac and / or a ferro resonant voltage stabilising transformer with a modern day plug in "energy consumption monitor" (AKA "wattmeter".In fact, since these heaters include a built in thermostat switch designed with ac current supply in mind, a dc supply has to be avoided if you wish to prevent the switch contacts becoming welded into a permanently closed state.As for "inrush current", the nichrome resistance wire typically used in heating elements, unlike tungsten filament incandescent lamps which typically demonstrate a 10 to 1 inrush current (even higher for tungsten halogen lamps), only suffers a moderate ( circa 1.2 to 1.3 to 1 afaicr) cold to operating temperature inrush current effect which normally isn't an issue unless you're explicitly testing this characteristic.If my assum(e)ption is wide of the mark (ASS-U-ME), please feel free to clarify what it is you're trying to achieve.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 01:50:43 pm
content: heater with DC might sag because of the non alternating magnetic field when hot

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 01:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: Johnny B Good on January 11, 2024, 01:47:10 pmA few posts up give a link to another thread by the OP which gives much greater context.In summary, the OP is trying to eliminate AC power due to perceived human health impacts of electromagnetic radiation. The load is an infrared lamp for a health sauna.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 02:00:25 pm
content: yeah remove all wireless cell phone signals around you lollbut seriously you have many conversion losses etc ... and it seems you deal with anxious people ?

author: p.larner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 07:03:43 am
content: looks like another closet lunatic posting this b.s to me!.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 02:12:56 pm
content: Unless there are very stringent e and m field constraints, it seems pretty pointless to run a resistor on DC.Have you considered a 24 pulse three phase rectifier, a much smaller cap will do nicely.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 11:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 06, 2024, 12:46:51 pmYou will get no sympathy from the vast majority of people here when it comes to compromising safety, and that’s exactly as it should be.It’s not paranoia or hypothetical: the dangers and challenges of high voltage DC are well known. OP clearly does not appreciate this (since he was advised of them months ago and just ignored it), and is on a path to build a death trap. It killing him would be bad enough, but you don’t know who else lives in his house, apartment building, or neighborhood — depending on the construction, a fire in one home could easily engulf any of those.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 02:15:13 am
content: Bridge rectifier between the thermostat and heater and a large inductor in series with the heater.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 02:46:21 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on January 06, 2024, 05:30:33 amFro 230VDC at 5A? Are you joking or just didn't read the original post properly?Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmWhy aside, to answer the question, I wouldn't dream of designing such a thing.. I would buy it ready made. Here's an example. The nominal output voltage is 250V, but it can be trimmed by 5% down to just below 240V.https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/switching-power-supplies/1860192https://uk.farnell.com/xp-power/hdl3000ps250/power-supply-ac-dc-250v-12a/dp/3525443

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 03:39:37 pm
content: QuoteOP should consider building a Time Machine instead the complicated rectifiers, go back to 1886, convince Nicola Tesla to give up the idea of AC current, and let Edison standardize on DC power distribution.Here, on the forum then we can start to have a more fruitful convo on Time Machine building, using various AliExpress bought parts. I already have a few ideas.

author: rew
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 04:45:40 pm
content: QuoteIn that case, just rectify and big caps. The voltage will be about 325V. Heating elements can usually handle that. If you can't afford to try plan B AFTER plan A has failed, just using them on 325V is plan A.Plan B is to put 1.5 in series, or maybe 2, but then you might have to increase the number of lamps used because they won't reach rated power.Edit: To REALLY approach the "requirements" I'd use a transistor in "linear regulator mode". Simply make the base voltage with a capacitor that should stabilize to "just below the lowest voltage on the caps in the last cycle". This can be done with a diode. Also you don't want it to take a few hundred cycles for the voltage on the cap to reach that 325-10V. Then the power transistor will be blown. So add a zener to make it at least 10V below the actual peak voltage. Could be a handfull of components. The current in/out of the "voltage setting" capacitor should be small, so the transistor will probably be a darlington(configuration).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 05:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: rew on January 13, 2024, 04:45:40 pmRemember, as the voltage is increased linearly, the power dissipation in a resistor goes up exponentially, doubling by every factor of √2, so 325V would result in double the power dissipation in a resistor, compared to 230V, which will quite likely blow it up.QuoteThat's still a massive amount of power dissipation in the transistor. Forget using a BJT because it'll exceed the safe operating area. MOSFETs are more reasonable, but check the data sheet.Perhaps a large inductor in series with the bridge rectifier + smoothing capacitor, could be used to reduce the output voltage to 230V. It will also have the positive effect of reducing harmonics and improving the power factor.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 05:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 13, 2024, 05:16:16 pmA MOSFET forlinearoperation?!? Isn't that one of the areas where BJTs are generally superior to MOSFETs (since modern MOSFETs are almost universally optimized for switching, not linear operation)?Quote from: Zero999 on January 13, 2024, 05:16:16 pmThe power factor... of a resistive heater? Isn't that 1.0 by definition?How would a series inductor reduce the output voltage?Does rectifying AC change the power factor the load places on the grid?

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 05:35:55 pm
content: Does it have to be exact 230VDC.?If so thats ok anyway..As someone said, a Boost PFC can get you to mains peak or above.Or...just a simple boost converter after the mains bridge can do it for you.Or if you want 230VDC ....just put a buckboost or sepic after the mains bridge....or even a flybackOr if you want some voltage which is just above mains peak...you can use one of those boost pfcs which do that "a follower boost".But if you give me firmer specs, i can give you the solution you seek.You have said 230VDC at 5A...but first i want to check is there any leeway in that.?..because 230vdc is below mains peak and you there4 need some extra stuff to handle that.So if you need 230vdc and 5a, and as steady as possib;e, then whatabout a hysteretic mode flyback....that easy as pie......simple.....i can doo that for you no probz.Hysteretic mode means it will be 230v +/-3v say, but will always be within that.Or i can do nice flyback with fast feedback loop....i have tricks for that....and we can do it like thta...but the noload 2full load (and vic ver) transient dip coudl be a bit of a bu**er....unless we use lots of cout.But give a shout as this is simple

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 05:47:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 13, 2024, 05:22:50 pmThere are definitely MOSFETs out there designed for linear operationhttps://www.littelfuse.com/products/power-semiconductors/discrete-mosfets/n-channel-linear.aspx(as a sidenote, take a look at another section of their website and application notes about another less commonly used MOSFET, the depletion mode MOSFET).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 05:49:24 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on January 13, 2024, 05:47:31 pmThat's why I said "almost universally", not "universally". The percentage of modern MOSFETs that are designed for linear use is vanishingly small, but existent.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 06:04:17 pm
content: Also....dont forget the inimitable and simple "swamped boost converter".That could maybe do a job for you.So for mains you get 339vpk.......so set your vout to 339vdc.......and shove a hysteretic mode boost converter on it...it will spark up and shovel current into the output whenever it goes below 339vdc....and its just a cheezy simple boost converter. As cheezy as Rapunzel!So, a good "el cheapo" way to get solid vout in face of severe load transients, is to do a hysteretic converter....but a hysteretic converter will mean you need to put up with a vout of say 230v+/-3v...........so...is that ok for you?...it will never go outide that....(unles of course a direct sht cct on output).And doth you require isolation?.....or "you dont but it would be handy"...or "you dont, but if its cheap youll take it"I guess you cant tell us the application as its a secret market area?

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 06:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 13, 2024, 02:46:21 pmIn the kooky context of the OP's ridiculous project request, the OP could've seen anything those many years ago, including a voltage boosted linear regulator.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 06:44:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 13, 2024, 05:22:50 pmIt is true that modern MOSFETs are designed for switching, rather than linear operation, but at high voltages, MOSFETs are much better in the linear region than BJTs, which suffer from secondary breakdown. This is why all high voltage linear regulator ICs use a MOSFET for the pass device, not a BJT.https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tl783.pdfhttps://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/ncp781-d.pdfQuoteAdding a smoothing capacitor to the output of a bridge rectifier does reduce the power factor, because it only draws current when the voltage across the capacitor is lower than the mains voltage. If a large filter capacitor is used, the current is drawn in huge spikes, which leads to greater I2R losses in the wiring, than the equivalent purely resistive load. An inductor would limit the current spikes, thus improving the power factor.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 06:48:25 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on January 13, 2024, 06:04:17 pmRead page 1 of this thread. This is the application:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ac-infrared-sauna-heaters-driven-with-dc/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 07:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: ricko_uk on January 05, 2024, 10:49:38 pmNo, you don't. If you have to ask such a question, you are not qualified to even try to do something like that. Stay on 5V DC and be safe.

author: rew
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 10:51:13 pm
content: Re: power in the resistor (Does this forum link the post I hit "reply" on? Edit reacting to:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/simple-230v-ac-to-dc-converter/msg5276722/#msg5276722... and found the quote button. Sorry.Yeah. I did the math. max 10V * 5A = 50W. In practice about half that. Calculate the cooling solution for 50W and you'll be OK.There is a trade-off between power in the transistor and the price of the capacitors. Capacitor formula is I = C dV/dt, so C = I dt/dV . So C = 5A * 10ms / 10 = 5mF. A 4700 uF at 400V or so is not going to be cheap.You can go cheaper, e.g. half that, but then you'll have to deal with at least double the power in the transistor. This can be optimized if you actually decide to build it.