New scope releases in March 2017 - Where is Rigol? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 02:41:40 pm
content: Has anybody heard something about a new scope model from Rigol? It can't be true that they have nothing planned. That would be a major release failure for Rigol, given the March release window used by all major scope manufacturers.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 03:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 01, 2017, 02:41:40 pmsays who?

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 04:07:12 pm
content: Does not change a team that is winningThey probably have something, but is postponing since nothing touch DZ1054Z supremacy

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 04:18:46 pm
content: I think they should do something on the spectrum analyzer front, need more competition there

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 06:21:10 pm
content: I am waiting on a Rigol oscilloscope that is based on the Zynq-7000 SoC architecture.This would make them the third manufacturer in row that has built a stand-alone oscilloscope based on that architecture.1) GW-Instek was the first runner - Good performance, but we all know about the weird and apart look2) Siglent adopted the idea - Performance still to be verified in a production SW build , but it looks very nice3) Maybe Rigol will follow - Let's cross our fingers!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 06:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 01, 2017, 04:07:12 pmI certainly would not expect a successor for the DS1000Z series in the near future.Would guess that Rigol are working on a new midrange platform to replace the 2000 and 4000 series?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 06:29:53 pm
content: I think it's really time that Rigol launches a new oscilloscope.Now it's a good time frame. The DS1000Z series has been out there for several years.Too fast release windows is not good either, on the other hand.Siglent seems to launch new oscilloscopes before the previous product has become mature.What was the time span between the SDS2000 and the SDS2000X series?What was the time span between the SDS1000X and the SDS1000X-E series?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 06:32:26 pm
content: You have beenbuggingasking this forum for "years" on buying a new scope, how many years exactly ?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 06:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 01, 2017, 06:29:53 pmI'm sure they are holding it back just for you.They want to give you some more time to get over your Zynq-7000 fetish.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 06:54:22 pm
content: For those who want to play along at home, and follow up new releases from Rigolhttp://cn.rigol.com/News/Index

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 07:01:36 pm
content: I am curious about what they're up to but I disagree their need to release a new low end scope. If they design and sell a new scope they will most likely start making less money than they do now. As long as the parts are available for the 1000z and it's selling like it is there is no need or reason to have a replacement. Not everyone wants or needs a "better" scope, they just want a known quantity. I'm not entirely sure why manufacturers think they need to continue upping the specs anyway on the low end when it doesn't benefit the people buying them. Regardless I think Rigol would be smart to have a new design ready, even properly tested prototypes that are production ready, but they don't need to release anything.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 07:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on April 01, 2017, 07:01:36 pmExactly, that's how companies work in these fast-paced electronics markets: Fully develop a new design, then put it on the shelf for a couple of years to mature. It's a little-known fact, but Apple has actually just completed the iPhone 9 -- to be prepared for the 2019 release in case Samsung comes up with something...

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 07:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 01, 2017, 07:18:17 pmYep that's exactly what I'm talking about. Not standard prototyping.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 07:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on April 01, 2017, 07:27:17 pmLet me try again then, without irony.R&D resources are usually not infinite -- they cost money.It is therefore challenging for most companies to even keep up with immediate competitive pressures. There is typically some immediate challenge to work on. E.g. Rigol is probably losing ground in the mid-range market at the moment, and needs to focus their R&D resources there.If you develop a new product just "to be prepared", with the intent to launch it much later, you only risk that the technology you use becomes stale, and that the competition upstages you with that smart new feature you just came up with.Hence, I think your scenario of Rigol developing a DS1000Z successor "to be prepared", but not launching it until the DS1000Z series starts to lose significant market share, is highly unlikely.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 07:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 01, 2017, 07:36:02 pmI think you are on to something here. Rigol released a DS4000E series but is hasn't got much traction and the same goes for Siglent with their SDS2000X series. In the mid-range (small business) market you need a product which works and you can't get away with a half baked product like in the low end market. It seems Siglent is currently moving very agressively towards the lower end of the market in a race to the bottom of the barrel.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 08:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 01, 2017, 07:36:02 pmOf course resources cost money. I'm making some assumptions about the size of the company and their priorities, but it's not uncommon to have your tech roll down the line which reduces costs a lot. What I wasn't trying to say was that they would wait until much later, rather that they don't need to respond to any pressure at the low end right now, but as a couple of manufacturers have released/are releasing new products it would be a good idea to be able to respond, or modify the project if it doesn't stack up favorably. No point in manufacturing and marketing a new product that is at a disadvantage to others in the same price range. If on the other hand it stacks up just fine you can move on to production with minor changes.I wasn't even saying they do or should have anything in the pipeline just that I don't think it'd be a BAD idea. In my scenario it'd release either way, but they'd wait to make sure it works in terms of the market. Daves siglent was done but they won't be releasing it here because they seemed to have determined it wouldn't have been competitive. Rigol also continued to sell the 1000e when the 1000z came out, that wouldn't be much different here. You may be right about them focusing on the midrange since they released their 4k 6 months ago though I would think that'd be a different sector of R&D and/or marketing that needs to address that.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 08:40:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2017, 07:45:48 pmThe biggest market share is in entry level models no doubt and this gives the most exposure in the marketplace along with EDU sales. The cost of buying 2kX is beyond all but advanced users. They do sell to those that need the features they offer.Better spec'ed and higher BW models take time and money to develop....but they are coming.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 09:05:05 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 01, 2017, 04:07:12 pmYep. That's business101: You never release new things while the old one is still selling well.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 09:12:23 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effectQuote from: Fungus on April 01, 2017, 09:05:05 pm

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 09:31:35 pm
content: Remember:Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on August 02, 2016, 05:15:58 pmIt makes strategic sense: instead of racing to the bottom, they use their current position to rise above the fray. It also explains the dearth of new model releases in the mean time. ASICs are hard.We've seen some indirect evidence that suggests Rigol has acquired in-house ASIC expertise. In the DS2000 teardown thread, I remember hearing that Rigol bought/partnered/became exclusive with RuiFeng, the manufacturer of the TI/NI ADC clones in their DS2k and DS4k line. This would have brought in the expertise if true. I personally saw them make a nontrivial tweak to the base ADC design during arepair, which corroborates the story somewhat.Still all speculation, but that's why we're here

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 09:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 01, 2017, 09:12:23 pmIt's not really that either. The idea is that you can only add so much extra to an oscilloscope. If you give themeverythingtoday then your future sales will never be more than replacements for the ones that break.It's much better to give them half the things today then sell them the other half when sales start to drop. That way a lot of people will havetwooscilloscopes on their bench - the old one and the new one.And... if you can give them only a quarter of the things today, string the extras out over four generations of product? Even better!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 09:53:38 pm
content: I see a problem with that reasoning: without new features it is more interesting to buy a used scope instead of a new one.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 09:59:09 pm
content: Sometimes future company strategies and business secrets can be revealed from looking at their open job vacancies.Unfortunately the search at Rigol HR in China did not reveal anything usefulhttps://translate.google.no/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fhr.rigol.com%2FCampus%2F&edit-text=

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 10:17:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2017, 09:53:38 pmI think it's the opposite. If people aren't upgrading to new features then there's no second hand market. Not many people will buy a new one while the old one is still working.I've been in meetings where they have a list of features they could add and everybody votes on which few they're going to add this year.You can see it everywhere:Did the first generation iPad mini have a retina screen? Nope, and it wasn't because of any technical reason.Do Ford Fiestas have all the software features of the Ford Focus (or local equivalent)? Nope, and it wouldn't cost them any extra money to add them. They're planning to add them two years from now.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 03:27:55 pm
content: EE Times China announced the Rigol DS1000Z series in May 2013:https://translate.google.no/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.eet-china.com%2Fwww.eet-china.com%2FART_8800684681_480401_NP_b6c3db89.HTM&edit-text=This means that the DS1000Z series is almost 4 years old.Interesting fact from the article in EE Times China:The legal business name of Rigol Technologies seems to be "Beijing Puyuan Jingdian Technology Co., Ltd."

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 03:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 02, 2017, 03:27:55 pmAnd they are still selling like hotcakes. Rigol got this one right, didn't they?(And again, I would not expect them to replace the DS1000Z series any time soon.)Actually, four years is not old for an oscilloscope design. Agilent announced the InfiniiVision X-Series in May 2011, and those scopes still seem competitive enough. I am sure there are other examples, probalby including significantly older designs that are still in the market.http://www.agilent.com/about/newsroom/presrel/2011/16may-em11059.html

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 04:36:26 pm
content: FLUKE 87 is more than 20 years old and still a dream meterMaybe Rigol find a perfect price-quality point that can go longer than the newcomers that fail and need to make another try

author: Neo2199
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 04:47:47 pm
content: I agree that DS1054Z is hard to beat, but at the same time I am thinking that Rigol should have some successor soon if they want to stay on top of the competition. As everyone knows the development time is quite long.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 06:57:10 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 02, 2017, 04:36:26 pmSure, but it's now the Fluke 87V. There have been five meters with the "87" model number.Quote from: Neo2199 on April 02, 2017, 04:47:47 pmThey may already have it and they're just waiting for the right moment. There's no point in doing anything if sales are still strong.

author: Neo2199
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 09:35:12 pm
content: That's possible. Maybe the started already with fixing the software.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 09:45:59 pm
content: Quote from: Neo2199 on April 02, 2017, 04:47:47 pmIt would be a smart move if they moved over the Zynq or other higher powered FPGA platform to give it more performance and potentially lower the price.But it'sstillthe scope to beat.Siglent and Keysight both went with 2CH designs, and they are lucky they did otherwise the 1054Z would be toast.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 10:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 02, 2017, 09:45:59 pmThere was some discussion behind the scenes of competing directly but they would have had to use multiplexed channel controls if a larger case wasn't used, something that went against one of Siglent's points of difference. Their only model that uses common controls is the rebranded SDS3000 as a WS3000 LeCroy, all current Siglent units for western markets use individual channel controls.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:58:06 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 02, 2017, 10:11:06 pmWS3000 is different with MAUI.But if Siglent stop this nice and handy separate controls policy I will throw away thru window every Siglent scope I have. There need be even more separate controls so that no need these terrible and stupid virtual keyboards and so on. Good example is some old Hewlett-Packard some front panels. Just state of art UI. Tek have never been in same level.I ask only three things in UI. Ergonomy, ergonomy and also ergonomy. Scope is tool as hammer and saw or other tools. Working with tools need earn salary. Bad ergonomy is - moeny. Loosed money. This is why I still use also example analog signal gen and analog multimeter and analog scopes and not only always digital ones. Just for money. Other case is when im kidding and playing as hobby fun ... this is other case. When I adjust scope during measurement, simultaneously I do not even need look tek 2246 or 2465 front panel. And even if sweep 1s/div there is full bandwidth without any aliasing or other bullshits. My fingers know what to do. Or adjusting some simple things using some funk gen. When I turn old wavetek or HP knobs all adjustments done using 3 seconds. When I turn trim pot and look analog Metrix202B needle I know immediately what is going on, better or worse. No need even think blinking numbers. But when I adjust some Vref I want watch perhaps 6-7 digit DMM.But... every single user have his own mind and own needs. Peoples do different things.

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:25:00 am
content: They still have a strong entry level product. There is no practical reason to release something new on that segment.It's not like scope technology is galloping with innovation. The market just has to juggle what they offer to the entry level people so that they do not affect their bigger products.They are probably waiting to check where the competition moves to calibrate their own designs. And yes they should do R&D constantly.R&D has a cost but is also an investment. On the other hand, a scrapped production line and/or a lost market is a significant immediate loss for any company.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:34:52 am
content: They could also have an amazing new firmware waiting or something like that. Upgrading everybody's firmware would generate a massive amount of good publicity for Rigol.(although technically speaking software is more expensive to create than hardware, so...)Or they just give all the options away as standard - no need to hack.ie. There's lots of things they could do with theexistinghardware that would gain them a year or two to design a new ASIC (or whatever).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 06:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on April 03, 2017, 10:58:06 amYou and I are of the same mind with regard to individual channel controls, most in Siglent that I converse with are of the same opinion.To many in the marketplace that have some scope experience there is preference for individual channel controls.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 03, 2017, 06:53:20 pmIf given the choice, without any further trade-offs, I think almost everybody would opt for a scope with separate channel controls. But in a small scope, I see the benefit of saving some front panel space, and can accept joint controls for four channels.I only wish they would indicate right next to the vertical controls which channel the controls currently refer to. The typical solution seems to be that four channel LEDs indicate which channels are active (visible on the screen), and one has to check the screen to see which channel is controlled by the knob.I see the point there -- when I work with the vertical controls, I probably should look at the screen anyway to see the effect. But I seem to intuitively look at the knobs first when I want to change a vertical setting, and I certainly have to look at the channel buttons when I have to select the channel I want to control. Hence I would prefer to have a redundant indicator next to the knob: Let the LED of the currently controlled channel shine brighter, or in a different color. If that were the case, I would not mind the common controls at all.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:08:50 pm
content: I don't have a Rigol, but when it comes to test equipment I'd rather see gradual refinement of an existing model than a flashy shiny new design every few years. A good oscilloscope should last at least 20 years, once it does 100-200MHz, offers a decent sample rate and memory depth, and the usual features most scopes have had for 20-30 years that's enough for most people. Those who need high end are not going to be looking at budget scopes in the first place. I'm hoping the test equipment market doesn't try to turn into the smartphone market where everyone thinks they need to upgrade to the latest and greatest every year.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:20:24 pm
content: I won a Rigol, A picotech USB Scope, an old TEK 2205 and one Owon toyI'm happy with my RigolMy dream is a MDO3024 from Tektronics, I guess is the real guy, Anybody have a good offer for this model

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:20:32 pm
content: if i may, i'd rather get less controls but bigger screen + increased resolution in a new scopeeven if *theoretically* you wouldn't get any advantage while displaying one waveform (8 bit digitizer, 256 vertical points, yada yada) things get crowded easily. if you also have MSO channels... well..you could also keep the same waveform window while having a bigger screen -like with keysight, right?- so that menus don't reduce the useful spaceotherwise, i don't really care for individual controls, the balance we have here right is good enough (wonder who'll be the first to copy R&S with RGB rings on controls) and these are not analog scopesYMMV

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:40:22 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 03, 2017, 08:20:32 pmDo you have a picture or a good movie fragment about those RGB rings on controls?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:27:38 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 03, 2017, 08:40:22 pmYou can see it in the video below. I had my doubts about lack of individual controls on the new R&S scope but after watching Mike's review, I agree with him that it's not really an issue with the RGB rings and the touch screen allowing you to move traces without a knob at all.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:55:52 pm
content: Since the DS4000 is the oldest design (6 years), it would make most sense to refresh that design. Then a year later pass the tech down to the DS2000 series, etc. As they have done in the past.Assuming they aren't going to target something even higher end first.hm apparently they already came out with the DS6000 recently:https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds6000/The screen is larger but only 840x480.edit: DS6000 is about 6 or 7 years old as well.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:29:13 pm
content: I think that the DS6000 oscilloscope has been around for a much longer time.

author: crazyguy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 02, 2017, 03:27:55 pmThe "Beijing Puyuan Jingdian Technology Co., Ltd." is google translated Chinese to English name, it is Chinese name, not the official English company name.