UK back to "imperial" measurements ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:19:29 am
content: Source ->https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-bids-jubilee-boost-27090524Quotes :... BoJo is planning to announce that imperial measurements will be revived to mark the Queen's Platinum Jubilee...... the move represents a victory for 'metric martyrs' it is a largely symbolic one to address gripes about EU interference in traditional English life. ...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:33:01 am
content: Quite frankly I won't be happy until I'm paying for my seven hogsheads of four-star leaded petrol in shillings and guineas. Anything else will not represent True Brexit.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:28:18 am
content: Here in the USA I do like being able to ask for "half a pound" of something at the deli counter. I never could get used to "quarter of a kilogram" or "250 grams".If you went to Tesco and asked for "a quarter of the farmhouse cheddar" would that automatically be understood as 250 g these days?

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:29:43 am
content: So next will be the world is back to plain not round and the center is not the sun...Paul

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 09:01:55 am
content: So the new unit of voltage is pound times square inch per coulomb per square second? I will try to rememberIs there an imperial unit of charge I forgot about?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 09:10:13 am
content: Canadian engineers are used to working with the different measurement systems, it's no big deal. USA is right next door.Old measurement systems are intuitive whereas the Metric system I've never been able to use sizing things. Degrees °F has almost twice the resolution as °C, sometimes I like it better for indoor temperature differences.Not to debate which system is "better" but eyeballing something in the metric system I find gross. Let the King's foot live on!

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 09:39:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 30, 2022, 08:28:18 amFunny enough... I have to admit that i do not know since when Germany is fully metric. EDIT: Looked it up: Metric was introduced in the 1860's... /EDITBut "Pfund", translating to "pound" and meaning half a kilogram, is very much still in use when considering food.Exactly your scenario, ordering hald a pound of whatever at the deli, will be understood to mean 250 gram.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 10:00:43 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 30, 2022, 08:28:18 amIn the 50s my mother asked for a "quarter of ham" in a shop in Pittsburgh. She received a black look, because it was interpreted as 25c of ham.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 10:17:58 am
content: I will personally not shop in any places that service only imperial units.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 11:32:52 am
content: brilliant news, i can order a pint of bitter and a pint of shandy instead of a pint of bitter and a large shandy

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 12:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on May 30, 2022, 11:32:52 amIn Oz, we seem to have undergone a process of "Re-Imperialisation by stealth".If I want to buy a "Pint" of Beer, I will travel to the "Old Dart"---- Oz beer was served by the "Pot", "Schooner", "Middy" or "Glass".Such measures were so imbedded in the Australian psyche, that the Metrication Board even turned out a chart, specifying the quantities in Metric measures.Not any more, though, all the little "Trendoids" wanted to pretend they were in London(never Southampton or Skegness, note)& order in Pints."Market Forces", in some unfathomable way, then forced the rest of us into having to buy our beer in the same measures!The worst thing is, that I always have the sneaking suspicion that I am being fobbed off with wimpy US "Pintettes", not real, red-blooded Pommy Pints!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 12:34:29 pm
content: I mostly use metric now for my own projects. But if I have to deal with contractors or friends ... nope, must be inches, pounds, and deg. F

author: Silicium81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 12:42:44 pm
content: With the different measurement systems NASA has missed Mars at least once...I was born with simplicity: the metric systemhttps://youtu.be/u4r0yrF_Wa0

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 12:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 30, 2022, 08:28:18 amTo be consoling: Here in germany it is uncommon to say something like "ein Viertel kilogramm" (A Quarter of a kg) - but: "Ein Viertelliter" (A quarter of a liter=250 ml) is normal measurement when cooking or baking...As the germans were still using "Pfund" (500 grams), my grandma was used to say halbes Pfund (250 g) or Viertelpfund (=125 g)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 01:16:18 pm
content: QuoteEven us poms NEVER pretend to be in smegness,and most who are there tend to pretend there somewhere else

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 01:27:44 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on May 30, 2022, 01:16:18 pmQuite.Southampton has a top-notch university.Skegness is buiit uponButlitzButlins holday camp, and a few people do stay at school beyond 16yo.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 02:36:13 pm
content: Viz agrees

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 03:09:15 pm
content: Before Brexit, I had no particular opinion of Brits. Now I realize they can be entertaining to watch.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 03:22:18 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 30, 2022, 02:36:13 pmTo coin a phrase, "Well they would say that, wouldn't they". "Mablethorpe Tourism Association", just up the coast from Skegness and Miami Beach (yes, really!)Quote from: eugene on May 30, 2022, 03:09:15 pmWe do our best. But doesn't it get boring to watch people repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 03:29:42 pm
content: It's just a distraction to keep some who voted Brexit happy. Unfortunately it won't because the main reason many voted to leave, was due to concerns over the large number of immigrants from the EU, yet immigration has only increased since the UK left.I couldn't give a toss. We have more important things to worry about: high inflation, immigration, no face to face consultations with the doctor and a long wait even for a telephone appointment etc.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 04:07:53 pm
content: The latest "Slough House" novel about British Intelligence (MI5) by M Herron ("Bad Actors") was just published in the US.I won't blow the plot, but there is background noise in short bits of broadcast news from the UK government.One: "the PM had just shared his vision of post-Brexit Britain as a culinary powerhouse, its takeaway delivery services the envy of the world".The last one: "the PM had just shared his vision of post-Brexit Britain as an imperial powerhouse, its weights and measures system the envy of the world".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 04:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 04:07:53 pmYeah, get the country playing to its traditional strengths.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 04:21:41 pm
content: It's a dead cat to divert attention away from <loads of shit Boris has caused>. Top of the list currently are probably cost of living and partygate, but there are plenty more stacked up.To be fair to Boris (grudgingly), breathing life into the corpse of imperial measurements was a manifesto item when he was elected, so he would be remiss to not do it. Doesn't make it any less of a dead cat, of course - timing is everything.Further, why should it make a difference? This is not a command that everything will henceforth be sold in imperial quantities, it's merely saying that if you want to do that you can, but it's not mandatory. Any sensible company would just keep on doing what they're doing now, and the only ones switching to imperial as the primary measure would be brexiter fascists doing it just because. If they want any chance at all of exporting to the EU they will keep metric as the primary measure.The downside (there is always one) will likely be that with a free-for-all the legislation mandating that roadsigns use yards and miles will lapse, so we will find junctions approaching in 100m instead of 100yds (makes a big difference!). FFS, just stick with what everyone knows without carrying calculator.Not sure how petrol will be affected. The switch from gallons to litres let them covertly bump up prices. Hard to think they would want their prices to look worse now (even if they turned out to be cheaper in reality) so I don't see gallons coming back in there.tl;dr: nothing to see here.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 04:44:53 pm
content: QuoteIve some very happy moments at stalag butlins, most happening in the early hours ,but they all involve jumping into a van/bus and driving out the gate ,however i do still suffer flash backs from the trauma caused in having to stay at the minehead branch for 2 nights

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 05:01:06 pm
content: I look forward to the speedometers on new British cars calibrated in "Furlongs per Fortnight".

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 05:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on May 30, 2022, 04:44:53 pmHoly hell I survived that one as well.Had to sit through Bob the builder show in a room containing more people than teeth.The whole experienced added to the reasons the ex wife is an ex wife.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 05:28:14 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 30, 2022, 07:19:29 amHave you stopped thinking about all his negative press and poll ratings or does he have to arrange for a minister to be caught buggering a corgi in view of Buck house?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 05:29:04 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 30, 2022, 05:27:10 pm*shudders* at the thought of 'holiday camp entertainment'.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 05:38:24 pm
content: Have not followed everything on this topic, but if getting back to imperial is just a way of showing ties are cut with the EU, that's just plain stupid. That's putting politics where it doesn't belong, and it's unfortunately a very concerning trend as of late.The metric system is universally used in science, and as such, there are objective benefits to all use the same system regardless of politics. It won't rob you of your sovereignty - contrary to many other decisions that are currently a lot more concerning sovereignty-wise and that the UK doesn't seem to be very reluctant to.I can understand why the US still uses imperial (but it's increasingly using both), but for a country that has already made the switch (which has an enormous cost), making the switch back doesn't seem to make sense and would have yet another gigantic cost for no good reason.But since I kinda like democracy (when it's really democracy), I think if the question in the UK is a real and important one, and not just a stupid tantrum or political maneuver, they should have a referendum. Let the people decide, but giving them all implications, including the cost, beforehand.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 05:43:30 pm
content: Again, the US went metric in 1959 (although they forgot to tell everyone).We don't use "Imperial" units: the relevant laws define "conventional" units (e.g., inch and pound) in terms of the metric units.Both metric and conventional units are allowed in commerce.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 05:56:18 pm
content: Here in Canada, Quebec, we have some supermarkets criss-cross their $/ LB or KG to mess with you into purchasing a worse deal. Normally, the price may be $/KG, but when there is a special, all of a sudden, it's now $/LB.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 05:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 05:43:30 pmNor were Imperial units ever banned in the UK, it's just another lie, more smoke and mirrors to mislead the gullible.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 06:18:25 pm
content: Which is what has me a little confused (but not enough to actually study the matter; I have more important things to think about.)What does the government have to do with any of it? Unless there are strict regulations, the people are going to use whatever units they want, or whatever units their customers want, or whatever is convenient given the situation. The government of the UK, like the government of the US, is kidding themselves (and wasting their time) if they think they have anything significant to say about it.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 06:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 30, 2022, 07:19:29 amThis makes it look even more interesting from the perspective of justification.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 06:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on May 30, 2022, 06:18:25 pmArticle 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution states that Congress has the power to "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures".In current US practice, the merchant and purchaser can measure substances in either conventional or metric units, but the statutes govern the definition of the kg and lb av to be used.Prior to the Revolution, individual States had their own units and currencies.More than you want to know:https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735.pdf

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:04:04 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 05:43:30 pmOf course the US doesn't use imperial units. While most of the US units have the same names as imperial units, a number of them (e.g the gallon) are a different size.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on May 30, 2022, 05:58:33 pmThey may not be banned, but they are prohibited. You can go to the greengrocer and buy two pounds of potatoes, but by law the price must be shown by the kilogram and the receipt must show the weight in kg.https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:16:19 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 30, 2022, 07:04:04 pmBefore Canada went metric, gas stations in Canada used the imperial gallon (4.546 liters), which was larger than the US gallon (3.785 liters). Most US containers will use the abbreviation "US gal" to avoid confusion.One rarely encounters "dry measure" in the US anymore: a dry gallon is 4.405 liters, for measuring dry ingredients, but there is still a legal definition.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 30, 2022, 07:10:28 pmFrom that UK legal source: "You can display an imperial measurement alongside the metric measurement but it cannot stand out more than the metric measurement."

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:19:57 pm
content: I find the US is not metric. ExampleBud Industriesall dimensions are inches. Cringe. Even though they're made in Asia.Hammondis a one button click for Imperial or Metric units. What's so hard about that.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:20:47 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 07:17:37 pmAnd thus you see how hilariously pointless this Brexit execise by The Johnson is.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:21:19 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 30, 2022, 07:10:28 pmThey aren't prohibited. The law only requires the same common ground units be used for comparing prices. Sometimes that can be something non-metric like price per sheet for toilet paper. We have some weirdities with units in the UK. We went metric around the time home deliveries of milk ended. Home delivered milk was in pint glass bottles. People migrated to buying their milk in litres from the supermarket. At some point, for reasons I don't know, the supermarket milk changed to pint bottles, and that's where they are today. We buy specialised (e.g. chocolate) milks in litre bottles, but plain milk in 1, 2, 4, 6, or 8 pint plastic bottles.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:27:01 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 30, 2022, 07:10:28 pmThank you for proving my point.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:35:51 pm
content: Before 1974, the price of gasoline in the US was well below $1.00 per US gallon.With the oil shock, the price rose, but most gas-station pumps could not use a price above $1.00.However, most could be set for liters, so Americans found themselves buying gasoline by the liter until the pumps could be replaced.Now, the US retail price is above $1.00 per liter, but the electronic pump controls can handle much higher prices than that.Similarly, wine and spirits used to be sold here by the "fifth", which was 1/5 gallon = 0.8 quart = 757.0 ml = 25.6 fl oz.Taking advantage of the standard European size for spirits and wine bottles, we now buy them in 750 ml size = 25.4 fl oz.We all know what happens to prices when units change.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:38:17 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 30, 2022, 07:19:57 pmSo you would rather they change all their drawings, which are now "even" in inches and use US sheet-metal gauges, rather than do the exact conversion (since 1 inch = exactly 25.4 mm) on your calculator?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 30, 2022, 09:10:13 amI work pretty much fluently in either one and don't have a particularly strong preference one way or the other. For some applications metric is clearly superior, for a lot of other things it doesn't really matter. I do prefer F for room temperature and weather due to the resolution aspect but even that doesn't matter too much to me. At a house I rented for a while around 20 years ago the electronic thermostat somehow got set to Celsius and I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to switch it back so I just left it that way. I've never really understood why some people get so passionate about the topic.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:49:07 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 07:17:37 pmI think the point is that if you are selling loose goods from a market stall, you are not going to go to the effort of displaying prices in £/kg and also £/lb. It's just not practical. And you cannot choose either or. If you display only one, it has to be metric. Furthermore, automatic point of sale equipment can only work with one or the other, and is calibrated with one or the other.So while "in theory" you can use the old measurements, this is something of a pointless provision in practice. You will not find any market traders or deli counters showing weights or prices in pounds and ounces any more.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 07:38:17 pmDon't forget "soft metric" vs "hard metric. Thus with ceramic tiles 150mm is the same as 6". Or not.Some buildings will continue to be imperial until they are demolished

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 07:53:36 pm
content: I go with both systems as I see fit. I even own a 305 mm Crescent wrench.When I turned 32 (many years ago), I started converting my age to Celsius. A few years later, I converted to Réaumur. After that, I went to radians. I have now run out of options and can continue to age gracefully.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:00:24 pm
content: The power of the Metric units is, that they all have a common reference/size, defined after the French revolution.All stored in Paris (standard metre, standard litre, standard kilogram etc.). Today, they are replaced by physical/atomic constants with the exception of the kilogram. That one's still being worked on.On the other hand, an inch could be practically anything until 1959.In industry, the inch was standardized by the Ford Motor Company after it bought the C.E. Johansson company and its "Jo Blocks". Those nail the inch at 25.4 mm - yes, mm. So the Paris Metric standard was the basic reference.I think you'll find that all UK and US units are in the end based on the Metric units from the French Revolution.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Edvard_JohanssonNote that I'm not saying that one system is better thant the other. A unit is just a unit, use what you feel comfortable with.

author: branadic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:00:33 pm
content: So will there be a similar video soon for UK?-branadic-

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:07:59 pm
content: Re: BentaBefore 1959, the US legal definition was 1 meter = 39.37 inch (exactly), which is slightly different than the current legal definition (post-1959) that 1 inch = 2.54 cm (exactly).This makes a difference for legal measurements of land tenure, which just got messed up again recently with the proposed abolition of the "US Survey Foot" that perpetuated the previous definition.https://www.nist.gov/pml/us-surveyfoot

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:11:57 pm
content: @TimFox:which proves my point. If there's no common reference, you're deep in manure. Henry Ford and US industry were smarter. Imagine specifying a precision-cut 1/4" milled slot when the supplier doesn't have the same inch size as you.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 07:38:17 pmYES. Enjoy the time wasted working with this drawing and converting to Metric. Bud Industries are a dinosaur, the boxes use Metric fasteners lol.It also makes hell for distributors/suppliers when you want to select a size on their website - in, mm, oz, ml what a mess.P.S. - Adam Savage sellingmeasuring stick tatoosfor your forearm in: inches, cm, mm.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on May 30, 2022, 08:11:57 pmBoth the pre-1959 and post-1959 legal specification were a rational ratio between the foot and the meter (only exact in one direction).Mr Ford was a stickler for precision measurements, and popularized "Jo Blocks" in the US, but the legal definition of the inch is a Federal regulation.The first definition went back to 1866 as a Federal law.I haven't looked for verification, but I was told once that the 1959 legal change was made so that the US inch would agree with the UK inch, which at that time was 25.4 mm.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: branadic on May 30, 2022, 08:00:33 pmMuch better than a video - theNPLhas an open day every year and you can walk around most of the labs where they mess around with this stuff. Well, look real close and have some sciencey bloke (sometimes a blokess) explain it all to you. Fascinating day out if you like that kind of thing (and most of us here would do). From what I recall, it's free too!

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:41:02 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 08:18:17 pmFirst, apologies: I added to my post before your reply, but without changing the sense of it.Calling Henry Ford "a stickler for precision" is a bit far-fetched. Rather, he was a pioneer in mass-production, and realized that all parts delivered to a production line need to be pretty much 100% identical for maximum assembly efficiency.Now, Dearborn wasn't one big plant, but several spread out over the area, each producing different parts for the car. THAT was his his rationale for buying C.E.J. All plants needed the same basic inch for their production. Pistons that wouldn't fit the engine block would be a disaster (we're talking a few 1/100 mm here).At the same time, other companies would deliver parts to the assembly line. They were forced to use the 25.4 mm inch as well, otherwise it wouldn't workAnd so on.The war effort 1941...45 would have been impossible without a common inch.That it was ratified as late as 1959 is pretty unimportant IMO.PS: the UK/US inch definitions from 1910 are based on the meter (rether, mm).

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 06:56:24 pmI interpret that to be just a standardization of some units. In other words, if I sell a box of something that says "net weight 1 lb" on it, then it needs to agree with what they call a pound. It doesn't require that I use pounds or kilograms or any other particular unit of measure.They might actually believe that they can dictate which units I use and which I don't, but the truth on the street is that it doesn't work that way.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 08:53:55 pm
content: Here is an interesting typescript (now in the John Crerar Library at the University of Chicago) with Ford's history of measurements up to 1934 ("Century of Progress" world's fair in Chicago), including the Johansson acquisition.It brags about measurement precision down to low millionths of an inch.It mentions that copies of the British Imperial Yard were sent to the US in 1856; later, Congress went metric in 1866. Interestingly, it doesn't mention the calibration factor between inches and meters.https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/ead/pdf/century0840.pdf

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 09:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on May 30, 2022, 08:52:07 pmThe US laws are explicit: see page 3 of this NIST summaryhttps://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.1020.pdfThe full regulations can be found inUniform Packaging and Labeling Regulation (UPLR) in National Institute of Standardsand Technology Handbook 130, “Uniform Laws and Regulation in the Areas of Legal Metrology and Fuel Quality.”"Units of the International System of Units (SI) (metric system) and U.S. Customary Units are acceptable for usein the quantity declaration. The declaration of quantity on most packages are subject to FTC and FDA regulationsand shall include both SI and U.S. customary units. Packaged goods subject only to State regulation under theUPLR may be labeled with only SI units (metric) in the quantity declaration. When both SI and U.S. customaryunits appear on a package either unit of measurement may appear first (see Exemption 11.33 “U.S. CustomaryUnits Consumer Commodities” in the UPLR)."This applies to labels on packages. There are also regulations on type faces, etc. in the complete document.Correction to my posts above: the legal term is "customary units", not "conventional units". Sorry.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 09:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 08:53:55 pmYes. Those would be the reference Jo Blocks kept in a temperature-controlled safe.The calibration blocks would be good to 1/1000 mm, the production blocks at around 5/1000 mm.Normal practice.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 09:13:01 pm
content: A cool thing about high-quality "Jo Blocks" (and competitors' such as Starrett and Mitutoyo) is how they "wring" when you place the broad faces against each other, due to the flatness and other properties of the blocks beyond their calibration accuracy. It can be hard to pull them apart if mated properly.The wikipedia articlehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_blockdiscusses how to wring them properly.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 10:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on May 30, 2022, 08:11:57 pmAnd that isn't far fetched. Gas piping thread sizes in inches are referenced to 1 inch being about 33.7mm. Try measuring that with a caliper that has 1" = 25.4mm.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 10:54:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 30, 2022, 10:45:33 pmPipe sizes are complicated: smaller pipes for gas, etc., are approximately theinnerdiameter of the pipe, and with changes to wall thickness over the decades the actual inside diameter has changed somewhat."One inch" NPS1 is 33.4 mm = 1.315 inch OD.Theinner diameteris roughly 1 inch, but varies depending on the "schedule", meaning code for wall thickness.Flexible tubing, however, is specified by itsouterdiameter.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 11:41:30 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 10:54:47 pmPipe sizes are, however, highly standardized (even if there are many competing standards). If you know which table of pipe sizes and wall thickness schedules you are working with, then the pipe dimensions will be consistent and predictable.One thing you can't do, is to assume a "one inch" pipe measures exactly one inch, either inside or outside diameter.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 12:01:09 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 30, 2022, 12:20:28 pmyet the states all disagreeing on the names:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Australia#Beer_glassesPlenty of themed places selling metric beers in 1l/500ml units.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 12:06:22 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 07:35:51 pmBack around that time (actually, a bit earlier, in 1971), I was surprised that Brits asked for "so many gallons" if they ordered fuel.In Oz, it was normal to just say "fill 'er up", or ask for say "$20 of super, or whatever", & that habit was carried over into self serve pumps.After all, the amount you were paying was the important bit!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 12:24:54 am
content: Quote from: Benta on May 30, 2022, 08:11:57 pmNot many real world problems are put out by ppm discrepancies (which is the scale of that linked change). Which comes back around to the actual accuracy achievable in use:Quote from: Benta on May 30, 2022, 09:09:18 pm

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 12:26:01 am
content: Quote from: Benta on May 30, 2022, 08:00:24 pmThe new definition of the kilogram was adopted in 2019

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 12:32:20 am
content: Quote from: Someone on May 31, 2022, 12:01:09 amI've never heard of "shetland" or "bobbie/six" in WA (maybe made up by the contributor to Wiki?).Way back, our "middy" was a different size to the container of that name in other States, & was "brought into line" with theirs, much to the disgust of many in WA-----this was well before Metrication.Maybe some other States may have kept their original drink sizes, but "pints" seem to have been all-conquering in WA.Interestingly, in my several later visits (post 2000) to Sydney & Melbourne, I never bought a beer, so my recent experience is all WA.Another place where I would argue that there has been a resurgence of Imperial measures is in hardware supplies.If you want to buy a few galvanised bolts in Bunnings, there are shelf after shelf of Imperial ones, but only a few of their Metric counterparts.I put it down to India, which is a huge (& very inexpensive) supplier of such hardware, being still largely Imperial.Of course, for most home projects it doesn't much matter.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 12:48:56 am
content: We'll know they are serious if they bring back Whitworth fasteners

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 12:49:39 am
content: Quote from: coppice on May 30, 2022, 07:21:19 pmIn Oz, the common size for flavoured milks is 600ml, which is "near as dammit" to an Imperial pint.The more logical size would be 500ml, (which is quite close to a US Pint), but we were used to Imperial Pints, so 600ml, it is!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 12:53:58 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on May 31, 2022, 12:48:56 amInterestingly, Whitworth is semi-compatible with some of the coarser US threads, or as the Brits call them U.N.C.UK BA, & the finer US sizes so beloved by Tektronix are compatible to nothing else!!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 01:22:27 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 30, 2022, 07:35:51 pmThey were always referred to as "26 fl oz" bottles in Australia, so we were probably getting "ripped off" for 0.4 ml all along, so what's another 0.2ml between friends.You can still buy beer in "big brown bottles" in this country (although they are not so popular as they were).From the look of them, they are still reusing the same old ones from years back!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 01:42:37 am
content: Quote from: coppice on May 30, 2022, 07:21:19 pmIndeed, and some of these weird oddities do give rise to things which are prohibited.I recall a story in the news a while back, where some Continental-style café/bars in the UK were trying to sell beer by the 500 ml glass, as is traditional in Europe. The law came down on them like a ton (or tonne?) of bricks and said they were not allowed to do that.But conversely, the spirit measure in England became 25 ml instead of 1/6 gill (and the Scots got short changed). Such is British legislation.On a related note, can any US members remember buying a pint of whiskey?

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 03:30:48 pm
content: Once the tabloid press publishes that Diesel is now over £8 per gallon in the UK, people will think a bit differently! I don't think Boris will want that getting out...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 04:04:47 pm
content: Quote from: jc101 on May 31, 2022, 03:30:48 pmNahh, Bojo will re-define the UK gallon to the size of a pint. Problem solved!

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 06:21:58 pm
content: Quote from: jc101 on May 31, 2022, 03:30:48 pmAs UK imports almost everything, be prepared.->British pound is taking on ‘emerging market’ characteristics,Bank of AmericasaysQuotes :Sterling is in danger of becoming an “emerging market” currency as falling growth and growing risks cause investors to flee the pound, according to Bank of America.As of Tuesday afternoon in Europe, sterling was down 7% against the dollar year-to-date, trading just below $1.26 having been as low as $1.22 earlier this month.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 06:43:37 pm
content: QuoteAll part of doris's plan to ensure the uk and usa trade on an equal footing,he hopes to reach a levelrugerplaying field of £1=$1 by the end of the year

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:34:38 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 31, 2022, 01:42:37 amI have to admit that I find that baffling. No, not baffling, pointless and stupid. It's a pointless and stupid law made by pointless and stupid legislators.QuoteLiquor comes in specific size containers, all metric, but many are meant to be close to imperial sizes thatalcoholicswe have become accustomed to.250 ml375 ml (often called a pint)500 ml750 ml (quart)1000 ml1750 ml (half gallon, though the really old guys call it a handle.)EDIT: in bars, poured liquor comes in units of a "shot" but nobody knows how much that is!!!My point is that nobody tries to dictate how much gets poured at a time. You can ask for a mixed drink with 1 shot, or sqrt(2) ounces, or any reasonable number of milliliters. The bartender will probably complain that they can only measure shots, but no pointless stupid laws dictate that they can only dispense in shotsBeer (in bottles or cans) is still sold by the ounce. In some cases the traditional 12 oz size has been replaced with 11.5 oz. Microbreweries sell refillable 1/2 gallon (64 oz) bottles they call a growler.Draft beer at bars are by the glass, sometimes with large and small options, sometimes with the large being a full pint. No regulations, except possibly for some maximum size that I'm not aware of.It all goes down the same for me!

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:38:17 pm
content: Before changing to metric bottles, I believe whiskey was available in both “fifths” (1/5 US gallon) and full quarts, as well as US pints.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:54:32 pm
content: Had a short and sweet discussion about this with a friend of mine earlier. She's in her 60s. She said it's retarded and can only conclude that it's aimed at the poorly educated country folk

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 08:02:40 pm
content: During university one of the gigs I did to pay bills was clerking at a liquor store. We sold many individual pints to a variety of customers. And a few customers came in regularly and ordered a case of pints. Thirty two. They ran unlicenced bars and dance halls and resold them to their patrons (hypothetically).

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 08:03:44 pm
content: The usual US pint bottle was the right size to go in a gentleman's back pants pocket.Half-pint bottles were for lower-class purchasers.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 09:10:20 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on May 31, 2022, 07:34:38 pmI think it might have been because unscrupulous vendors would switch to the smaller measure but not reduce the price in proportion. Or at all. If someone asks for a pint they should get a full pint, not something that looks like one but isn't.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 09:13:16 pm
content: One thing I learned to appreciate in Germany were the calibration lines on the side of glassware for alcoholic beverages.At a high-class restaurant, the wine glasses had nicely-etched calibrations.Is there a reason why Europeans like to use "cl" instead of "ml" for their beverages?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 09:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 31, 2022, 09:13:16 pmBecause if the number is 10x bigger they feel worse about the booze sodden ways.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 09:21:43 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on May 31, 2022, 09:13:16 pmThat's only for high-percetage stuff... you know, Schnapps, Korn etc. Standard measure is 2 cl, a double is 4 cl.Bubbly, wine, beer are all in litres: 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1 l...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 09:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on May 31, 2022, 09:21:43 pmMost wine bottles are labelled in cl.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 09:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on May 31, 2022, 09:21:43 pmMy explanation would be that the numbers are therefore in the one-digit range and are comprehensible- so that no-one has to sya "20ml" please.Also you order in germany your beer whether as half-liter, or 0,2/0,3/0,4 in a restaurant, and not 200ml/300ml/400ml.Also you say usually centimeter, and not 10 millimeter- probably a habit of having usable sizes, and not overly precise stuff ordinary people cannot measure by eye...

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 10:07:32 pm
content: Quoteein grocers beer ,bitter. saves all the confusion

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 03:12:14 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 31, 2022, 09:10:20 pmThat might be why the law exists, but the problem was the "specified quantities" law for draft beer. It is only permitted to sell draft beer by the pint (or third, half, two thirds or multiples thereof).https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/specified-quantities

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 04:27:32 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 31, 2022, 09:10:20 pmIf only that were the case. A "half gallon" carton of ice cream is nowhere near half a gallon anymore. They get smaller periodically in a lame attempt to conceal price increases.https://www.mouseprint.org/2008/05/12/ice-cream-scoop-major-brands-downsize-again/comment-page-1/

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 07:55:02 am
content: Quote from: nightfire on May 31, 2022, 09:35:06 pm1, 2, 5 is a common geometric progression. It would make sense to adopt a more finer sequence for standard can/bottle sizes i.e 150ml, 200ml, 330ml, 500ml, 700ml, 1l, 1.5l, 2l because only making a limited number of sizes is cheaper.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 03:06:09 pm
content: Quote from: nightfire on May 31, 2022, 09:35:06 pmSeems silly to order 0.2/0.3/0.4 liters when you could more easily order 2/3/4 deciliters, no?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 03:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 30, 2022, 08:28:18 amFor what it’s worth, even here in Switzerland, which has been metric for a long time, you can go to a cheese counter and ask for a half pound (“Pfund”) and get around 250g. I don’t think younger people are as familiar with it, but older folks certainly are.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 03:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: nightfire on May 31, 2022, 09:35:06 pmDoes Germany have names for the sizes? German speaking Switzerland does: “es Grosses” for a 5dl (except for cheapskate places where it’s a 4dl; the exact sizes must be displayed on the menu), “e Stange” for a 3dl, and the adorable “es Herrgöttli” for a 2dl. (For those who don’t speak German, it means “a little Dear Lord!”.)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 03:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 30, 2022, 08:28:18 amMy comment on an older post:Sometime around 1980, my local supermarket installed new electronic scales at the deli counter that read out in decimal pounds (to two decimal places).I would normally buy a pound of sliced meat to make five lunches per week, but that week I would be out of town for two days.I asked the young lady for "six tenths of a pound". No response.I then asked her for "zero point six pounds". No response.Repeat: "zero point six pounds, like it reads out on the scale". No response.Finally, I asked her for "9.5 ounces": She went to the back room where there was a conversion table posted, and finally gave me what I needed.There was an older lady there with a German accent, and I joked with her that it was just like the Olympics: "Null Komma sechs".

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 04:40:26 pm
content: I can't say I have a particular objection to a re-normalisation of imperial units in day-to-day useage, so long as they'll be kind when it comes to cost-to-weight comparisons... asking how many £/lb or lb/£ could get tedious.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 04:54:00 pm
content: During a lengthy business trip to England, before I retired, I ran up a large bill at the hotel (including meals): 2200 GBP, a ton(ne) of money.Leaving Chicago for that trip with too many tools in my checked bag, I was charged 50 USD for being 10 lb av overweight, and I complained about the exchange rate.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:07:34 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 01, 2022, 03:57:19 pmOy vey...I mean, what did the conversion table tell her that you didn't already?!?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:09:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 01, 2022, 05:07:34 pmI assume it showed an explicit numerical expression. She had not been trained in what the new machine's display meant, and could not relate it to my careful spoken English.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: penfold on June 01, 2022, 04:40:26 pmI do. Most people are poor at arithmetic in bases 3, 4, 8, 12, 14, 16, 20, 22, 112 etc etc etc. And that's even assuming they will know which base to use.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:26:25 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 01, 2022, 05:09:14 pmOh my. I would question whether anyone who can't convert a spoken "zero point 6" to 0.6 in their head should be allowed anywhere near food, money, or anything else of consequence!!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 01, 2022, 05:26:25 pmGrocery store staff are often not the brightest, especially those who have worked there full time for a long time.Quote from: TimFox on June 01, 2022, 03:57:19 pmDecimal imperial units are quite common, but I've not known a scale like that. If it was for weighing large objects, up to hundreds of pounds that would be fair enough. It would make more sense to just use ounces. I have some kitchen scales which a resolution of 0.05oz, when set to ounces. I normally have it set to grams, which is slightly more precision, although I imagine it doesn't make any difference, since 0.05oz is probably the limit to its repeatability.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 01, 2022, 05:26:25 pmA considerable percentage of the population struggles massively with simple decimal fractions. You'll find plenty of people in well paid middle class jobs who struggle with equating zero point six to 0.6

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:50:09 pm
content: Now they only have to go all the way and create a bill to square the circle at a ratio of 32https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_BillAnd the horsepower hour electricity bills...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 01, 2022, 05:46:13 pmI work in fintech. I’ve met actuaries who have trouble with simple mathematics. If you don’t use it, you lose it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 05:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 01, 2022, 05:38:42 pmAll the deli counters I use here have a scale that weighs and prices in decimal pounds. Aint nobody got time to program point of sale devices in pounds and ounces. It will compute "0.53 lb at $8.99/lb is $4.76"If you want 0.6 lb when ordering, you can just say "a bit over half a pound", or "can you add another couple of slices to that?"

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 06:10:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 01, 2022, 05:46:13 pmYep.A discussion about that:https://www.quora.com/Why-is-mathematical-illiteracy-socially-acceptable

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 06:37:23 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 01, 2022, 05:53:57 pmI must be an American thing. It's such an easy thing to program. My kitchen scales can even be set for pounds and ounces, although the resolution drops from 0.05oz to 0.1oz on the pounds setting, because the display doesn't have room for the extra decimal place.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 06:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 01, 2022, 05:46:13 pm:::sigh::: I know. It just baffles me.And that even though I've listened to the entirety of theVerizon Mathspectacle.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 06:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 01, 2022, 06:37:23 pmI could swear I've seen digital point of sale scales in lbs and oz in USA. I'd be shocked if it's not something that can be set in software.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 07:09:14 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 01, 2022, 06:37:23 pmI don't think it's entirely about programming. It would be so confusing. Suppose your receipt said this: "0 lb 8.5 oz at $8.99/lb thus $4.76"Can you imagine the confusion? How could you ever check whether you had been charged the correct amount without a calculator?The reality is that America is decimal, and has been for quite some time.In engineering, weights are in pounds (lb), thousands of pounds (Mlb), or millions of pounds (MMlb).Distances are in feet, hundreds of feet, or thousands of feet. Road signs will say "500 ft" when giving a distance to a hazard.Also in engineering, measurements are in inches and thousandths of an inch (mils). The dimension of a part will be given as 2.351 inches. Pins on ICs or headers are 0.1 inches apart.It makes sense. Decimal is the only sensible way to make measurements and do calculations.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 07:17:49 pm
content: Obviously, there's no technical reason why the scale could not read in lb and oz, but I have not seen a grocery-store scale in the US with a digital readout other than decimal.As mentioned above, this works well with decimal currency to give a decimal price.Small electronic scales from lab supply companies can be set to all kinds of units, including taels, but usually have a programmable choice of g, kg, lb, lb:oz, or oz in the US.Here is an example of a very flexible small unit (see last page for full list of units):https://dmx.ohaus.com/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=4294974299

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 10:48:45 pm
content: QuotePity no-one told computers and electronics.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 10:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 01, 2022, 03:57:19 pmThey were waiting for you to call it what it is, 600 millipounds.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 11:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 01, 2022, 07:09:14 pmThen you've failed maths, and cant handle even basic mental arithmetic. 8 oz is half a pound, rounding to $9/lb that's $4.50The additional half ounce is near enough 1/30 lb, so $0.30TOTAL: $4.80 which is within a nickel of the actual price.It took me far far longer to type this than to do the math, in my head.If you don't math, and don't own a smartfone with a calculator app, how do you manage to check you aren't being ripped off for state and city sales taxes?Also, as you aren't qualified for any job more technical than asking "Would you like fries with that?" or pushing an idiot stick, and don't math, odds are your boss is ripping you off something rotten by wage theft!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 08:32:50 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on June 01, 2022, 10:50:13 pmLOL. I’m so going to ask for 250,000 milligrams of cheddar next time I’m in the supermarket.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 09:14:21 am
content: Quote from: IanB on June 01, 2022, 07:09:14 pmWhy not use ounces? I personally fine 1.25lb more confusing than 1lb 4oz or even 20oz. I'm pretty sure things were sold in pounds, as well as ounces before the UK went metric.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 11:13:46 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 02, 2022, 09:14:21 amBecause I always forget whether I should be using base 14 or base 16 arithmetic.Currency decimalisation in 1971 was awonderfulthing. I remember having to do far too many LSD calculations in school arithmetic lessons. Life's too short for that crap.It is rumoured that our minister for Top Hats and Fob Watches (Jacob Rees-Mogg, may he rot in hell) is going to insist on using Roman numbers for dates. It is unclear whether or not that implies reverting the Julian calendar so we can reclaim our 10 days.Librae Solidi Denarius, i.e. pounds shillings and pence. But the "alternative" meaning is equally valid.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 11:19:07 am
content: Quote from: IanB on June 01, 2022, 07:09:14 pmHmm, nope.In Engineering, weights are in Newton (N), lengths are in meters (m)Even in the USA.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 11:20:43 am
content: Quote from: f4eru on June 02, 2022, 11:19:07 amApart from the Mars Climate Orbiter…

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 11:23:30 am
content: Yeah, they had one supplier using customary units for space distances.but is corrected now, amateurs at the suppliers are no more, and NASA was metric from the start.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 11:56:56 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 02, 2022, 11:13:46 amThen why not simply go metric instead of using decimal imperial, which is more confusing?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 12:12:09 pm
content: QuoteBut it did help to stave off a sedentary mind.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 12:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 02, 2022, 11:56:56 amI do normally use metric, especially where arithmetic is necessary.I don't use metric when checking my weight daily, although I do for other purposes. I still tend to think in terms of a portion of meat being 4oz, but anywhere from 100-150g is an acceptable approximation.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 12:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on June 02, 2022, 12:12:09 pmOnly if you have an indolent mind that lies dormant until necessary!Back then I was far too interested in cyphers, electronics, making things to have an indolent mind

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 05:30:33 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on June 02, 2022, 11:19:07 amYou are being funny, of course.But while it is true that a mix of units is in use, depending on discipline, and while it is true that engineers understand SI units, it does not mean that SI units are in any way standard across disciplines. It is also the case that "weight" is a common synonym for mass, and will be used as such even in professional exams where the context is clear.Here's one example among many you can find where customary units are in use:https://www.pegenius.com/civil-pe-review-daily-questions(I just learned to my amusement that while "Mlb" is a common abbreviation for one thousand pounds mass, "kip" is an abbreviation for one thousand pounds force.)Here's an example (attached) from an FE practice paper. It shows that even today students are being taught to deal with these kinds of units. From a European perspective this feels rather strange.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 05:57:53 pm
content: The simple imperial units are relatively easy, but I really don't like BUT/sq. ft * inch / °F for thermal conductivity.I don't think the UK would really more back to the imperial system, maybe a slight slow down in finally getting rid of the rests of the imperial system.

author: mclute0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 06:08:29 pm
content: So just for fun, and in the spirit of inclusivity and human/universe coexistence, I think we need some new standards of measurement that are universal and not based on human truths.Why do I say this? I really like the Asimovian idea that at some point, maybe a megaannum from today, we will meet other intelligences and if out systems are based on universal truths our ability to communicate will be much improved.What do I mean by universal? I would perhaps start with say the wavelength of the first spectral line of Lyman series for Hydrogen as the base unit of measurement of distance.Is that the best we could do? Probably not, but it gives you the idea. What we call the measurements is not nearly important as the understanding of their context. Like using base 2 with computers and not human centric base 10, adapting to a new system is only more mathematics, but using that new system improves the related system of communication.Just hope we don't meet the Mule.I wonder if Asimov would have done TikTok.All your Tide Pod are belong to us!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 06:17:39 pm
content: Quote from: magic on May 30, 2022, 09:01:55 amseconds need to be defined in fractions of fortnights...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 07:12:00 pm
content: There is a "customary" unit for magnetic flux density (B-field): lines/in2.1 line/in2= 15.5 uT.(The "line" corresponds to the old cgs unit "Maxwell" or Mx)In older electrical engineering, one can find "Mx/in2" and "Wb/in2".In modern SI, 1 T = 1 Wb/m2is the preferred name for magnetic flux density or "magnetic induction"B.In rationalized units, the other fieldHin A/m is called the "magnetic field", just to confuse people.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 07:27:44 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 02, 2022, 07:12:00 pmIf I envisage a long, thin, straight conductor in free space, and I want to consider the magnetic field strength in the proximity of that wire, then the only two considerations are the current in the wire, and the distance from the wire. The magnetic field increases with current, and is presumably proportional to the current, so it is "A times something". The magnetic field decreases with distance from the wire, so we will be dividing by distance. At the simplest we therefore have "A/m".What is the intuition that tells is it is A/m rather than, say, A/m2?The best I have is that the inverse square law typically applies to distance from a point source (zero dimensions). Since in our case we have a long straight wire (one dimension instead of zero dimensions), the inverse square law loses a dimension and becomes a simple inverse.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 07:33:39 pm
content: That's as good an "intuitive" explanation as any. Another explanation is that if you do a line integral ofHalong a closed curve, it equals the total current (in Amp-turns) crossing the 2D surface enclosed by the curve.In electromagnet design,His often measured in "Amp-turns/meter" for that reason.The difference between "rationalized" units, including modern SI, and "unrationalized" units, such as "Gaussian" cgs is where to put the 4 pi in the equations.In Gaussian units (preferred by some physicists who don't own Simpson 260 meters),BandHare in the same units (Gauss), althoughHis sometimes called out as "Oersteds", even though that equals the Gauss.In "rationalized mks" (SI) units, they are related in vacuum byB= (4pi)x10-7xH, where the factor (permeability of free space) is an exact constant that defines the Ampere through the other equations.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 03:04:16 pm
content: I have seen this discussion inWhat Bollocksmagazine.I'm sure us Brits would love to use cubits per salck cullishigay . Lots of old codgers (not me, obviously) and our legion morons would like to go back to the sixties when LSD (£sd) was real money.We'd need to get off those milligrams while we're at it. I'm going make my apothecary weigh it out in grains while I watch. He said "Would you prefer the liquid formulation, 6 carats per drachm? "I struck him for his insolence of course!Soon I expect the tori grandees to consider adopting the gold standard and making rickets compulsory.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 03:14:14 pm
content: Skeggy OMG. Too many wasted childhood hours. I know a bloke who lives in the middle another town of Lincoln county - Scunthorpe.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 03:58:23 pm
content: I remember (late '60s) ordering from an ad in Wireless World to a UK firm for delivery to the US, when the Carolingian currency denominations were still in use.At that time, the exchange rate was 1 GBP = 2.40 USD, which made the conversion very easy if I just converted the UK price to pence.Long before credit cards, I went to my local small-town bank for a bank draft, payable in sterling.At that time, banks were still independent, but small banks used a "correspondent bank", in this case Chemical Bank of New York.(Later, during the merger frenzy, Chemical Bank acquired several other large banks, but the successor used the most famous name of the group, Chase.)The teller at the small-town (Iowa) bank referred me to a vice president, who filled out the draft by hand.He mis-spelled shilling, confusing it with the Austrian schilling.I was so embarrassed.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 04:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 05, 2022, 03:58:23 pmI did almost the same, but in reverse. I orderer new-fangled 0.5" LEDs from California, and had to get a special international money order.

author: rfclown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:33:33 pm
content: I grew up in the US with our goofy units. I was told as a child that we were going to convert to the better way... but it never happened. With our tools (nuts and bolts) we have a mix, so I have to have both English and metric wrenches and socket sets, which is a pain. I prefer when the socket is metric and I don't have to figure out if 9/32" is bigger than 16/64" (as opposed to 7mm vs 6mm) when I rummaging for the next bigger or smaller socket. For nuts/bolts, it would be nice if things were all metric... except that I'm an RF guy and I use mostly 3.5mm (SMA) connectors which have 5/16" nuts. Aaagggghhhh!What I never understood was kg, which is mass, but used as force (weight). Why was that done wrong? If you're going to make us switch to different units, don't make it wrong units. At least in our goofy units we didn't weigh is slugs. When I see pressure gauges with kg/cm2 scales I want to throw them across the room. I guess we can't expect to make people to change when they've done the wrong thing too long. And then those same people throw stones at those who are using old goofy units.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:48:45 pm
content: Kg was never used as a force. Force is N (newtons)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: rfclown on June 05, 2022, 09:33:33 pmYes, in metric countries engineers often (incorrectly) express force in "kgf" instead of Newtons.In US customary units, the "lb av" is often used (incorrectly) as a unit of mass, although technically it should be a unit of force and weight.Specifically: when the local consumer-department inspector checks the setting on a sales scale, he places a known artifact on the scale to check the reading. The marking on that calibration mass assumes a standard gravitational acceleration value (roughly that at sea level at 45olatitude) to know the actual weight at that standard location. (NIST considers that acceleration value to be a defined constant, like 1 in = 2.54 cm exactly.)However, he will use the same set of reference weights in Denver as in New York, even though a pound of steak transported to Denver weighs less at high altitude. (Don't go into your local grocery store and ask for slugs--they might have a weird imported food section.)I find it hard to believe that you can't quickly determine that 9/32 = 18/64 is larger than 1/4 = 16/64. We live in a binary world.I own two sets of sockets from Sears, one for inch and one for mm, that both have 1/4 inch drive. Each set fits nicely into its small rack.Owning a full set of US number drills, letter drills, and fractional-inch drills means that I can get close enough to any mm size.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:50:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 05, 2022, 09:48:45 pmYou have never seen a pressure gauge calibrated in kg/cm2or kgf/cm2?Do they only export those gauges to the US?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:51:29 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 30, 2022, 07:19:29 amOh "THE MIRROR"? Well in that case it MUST be true...The cheapest brand of novelty printed toilet roll.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:55:36 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 05, 2022, 09:50:49 pmThat’s a pressure not a force. And it should be pascals.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:57:11 pm
content: Quote from: eti on June 05, 2022, 09:51:29 pmI do remember this from a member of HM government:https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/jacob-reesmogg-orders-staff-to-use-imperial-measures-and-double-spacing-in-leaked-memoand the colourful version from the Financial Times:https://www.ft.com/content/e0556f76-afc6-11e9-8030-530adfa879c2I don't disagree with his attempt to ban the usage "to meet with", however.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 05, 2022, 09:55:36 pmYes, but pressure is a measurement of force per unit area.Before the pascal was defined, the proper measurement in mks units was N/m2, or dyne/cm2in cgs.1 Pa = 1 N/m2.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 05, 2022, 09:50:49 pmProbably. At least in Europe, it’s really not used any more. Germany apparently outlawed it in 1978.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: rfclown on June 05, 2022, 09:33:33 pmQuote from: TimFox on June 05, 2022, 09:50:00 pmQuote from: bd139 on June 05, 2022, 09:48:45 pmOh boyWeights and measures is a convention. What is correct depends on your local culture and custom. To argue otherwise is like arguing that green beans are fruits and it is wrong for people to call them vegetables. Why would anyone give you the time of day?So yes, the kilogram can be a unit of force, just like the pound. Hence the customary pressure unit of psi -- pounds (force) per square inch. Or the force unit of kip used by structural engineers -- kilo-pounds. Likewise, kg/cm2 is a common unit of pressure (somewhat universal in Japan and other parts of Asia, for example).Would you go to Germany and insist they follow American customs because you are American and you think they should do things your way? I would hope not.The pound, and the kilogram, obviously, are also used as units of mass. The key point being "used as". Thus, in engineering, you will find flows measured in MMlb/day (millions of pounds per day), and in other parts of the world you may find such flows measured in kt/day (thousands of metric tons per day).Another foolish thing is arguing the difference between mass and weight. The world of commerce would fall apart if this were ever an issue. Are you going to question your 5 lb bag of rice because it might not contain 5 lb (mass) of rice?Speak the language of the people you are dealing with and everything will be smooth. Speak a different language and they will look at you funny.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 11:10:58 pm
content: I explained the legal meaning of a 5 lb bag of rice in a post above (reply 141).In careful scientific and engineering usage, the kg is an SI unit of mass, the N is an SI unit of force or weight, and the lb av is a customary unit of force or weight.What is correct is defined by statute.What is common may be defined by custom.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 12:18:41 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 05, 2022, 11:10:58 pmI'm not sure that you did. You described a prescribed process for checking the accuracy of a point of sale weighing device to within a certain accepted tolerance by government inspectors.If we look to a regulatory source, namely "NIST Handbook 130: Uniform Laws and Regulations in the areas of legal metrology and fuel quality (2022)" we find something more precise. Firstly, we find throughout the document the statement:QuoteThis note appears following every use of the term weight in the regulations. It is supported by some explanatory text:QuoteSecondly, we find a definition of the pound mass avoirdupois in Appendix A:QuoteIf the amount of a pound depended on local gravity, it could not be given exactly to 8 s.f. like this.Therefore the legal meaning of a 5 lb bag of rice is that it contains 2267.96185 g of rice, or sufficiently close to comply with the applicable regulations and measurement standards.Quote from: TimFox on June 05, 2022, 11:10:58 pmAs a careful scientist and engineer, I disagree with the latter part of this. The lb (mass) is a unit of mass, and the lb (force) is a unit of force. Where the context is not clear, these are sometimes abbreviated as lbmand lbf.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 12:34:06 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 05, 2022, 09:48:45 pmYou weren't there man.Before the Newton was added to the SI units, we used Kg (often written as Kgf, for Kilo equivalent of force) as a unit of force. Our physics text books changed during my time at school.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 01:02:24 am
content: Re: IanBYour discussion about the difference between a "pound mass" and "pound force" is consistent with my discussion of using lb av at the grocery store to weigh food.However, here is an example of my reasoning not to use lbm:Imagine a spacecraft whose mass is 100 lbm. We then apply a force of, say, 10 lbfto accelerate it in a desired direction.Applying Newton's second law straight out of the bottle,F=m Awill give the wrong result, unless we throw another factorgN, the defined standard acceleration of gravity.In careful US usage, one should use pounds of force and slugs of mass, just as in careful metric usage one uses Newtons of force and kg of mass.I remember in high-school physics class (11th grade), an important initial hurdle for the students was to understand the difference between mass and weight. The instruction was in both customary and metric units, and I learned some important factors for mental calculation, such as 88 ft/sec = 60 mph (exactly).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 01:19:58 am
content: QuoteBut only applicable to america,if i was served 0.473177 liters in my liquid pint glass id be questioning the parentage of the bartender

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 01:37:28 am
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on June 05, 2022, 03:14:14 pmDorset will see your Scunthorpe, & raise you "Shitterton!"

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 01:42:23 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 05, 2022, 09:55:36 pmAs it is in Oz!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 02:10:27 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 06, 2022, 01:02:24 amIndeed. Lecture 1, day 1 of my engineering degree was introducing the subject of units of measure, and the correct use thereof.Until that point, my high school curriculum had been taught exclusively in SI units. Imagine our surprise when this conversion factorgcstarted appearing in all sorts of equations, and how important it was to remember it when venturing off the SI island.Here is the famous Bernoulli equation as described in a standard industry reference:We may observe how the mysterious factor "g" appears in some terms. And what the heck is that 144 doing there?Furthermore, what about that "foot pounds per pound" as unit of measure for head (loss)? Why don't the pounds cancel out to leave just feet? (Actually, they do, if you are a practicing engineer and you know what's going on.) The equivalent SI unit would be J/kg, and maybe that is equivalent to meters? (Yes, it is, as long as you remember thegcconversion factor when going from one to the other. See? You can't escapegceven in SI units)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 02:29:19 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 05, 2022, 09:50:00 pmI realized afterwards, that this was in fact a statement designed to lead readers into a trap.If a set of scales in New York is calibrated with a standard 1 kg weight, then when the scale reads 1 kg you will have 1 kg mass of your desired commodity on the scale.If a different set of scales in Denver is calibrated with a standard 1 kg weight, then when the scale reads 1 kg you will also have 1 kg mass of your desired commodity on the scale. Any difference in local gravity is canceled out by the calibration.Now, if you calibrated the scale in New York, and then transportedthe scale(not the steak) to Denver, then you might have a problem. But that was not the premise.The key point here is that a 1 kg calibration weight hasa massof 1 kg, and that mass will remain the same everywhere in the world. If you use it to calibrate a scale, then the scale will read mass accurately at the location where calibrated.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 03:31:00 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 06, 2022, 01:19:58 amWhy would your bartender serve you a US pint in the UK?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 12:39:44 pm
content: Quotebecause some one has told them the above book is regulatory without adding "only in the usa" .

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 01:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 06, 2022, 12:39:44 pmAndhe didn't know that "NIST" is a US Government Agency?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 02:04:35 pm
content: Quotewithout searching do you know what NICEIC is?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 03:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 06, 2022, 02:04:35 pmNo, but I doubt it is a US agency.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 03:18:57 pm
content: I didn't cheat, and looked it up after posting above, and, not to my surprise, it is a UK agency.