Should i sell my Brymen 867s & Fluke 177 and buy a Fluke 87v? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 12:14:06 pm
content: I've been dithering with this for a while now and can't seem to settle 1 way or the other. It seems every time I think I've found something that makes me want to go with one or the other I find something of equal weight to make me dither again.I've came to the conclusion that they are all good meters so will always cancel out the pro's and con's when trying to decide between themAnyone have anything 1 way or the other on this???

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 12:28:59 pm
content: Asking that kind of question here will most likely gain answers like this:Get an additional 87V if you feel like it (and have the spare change) and keep the others.The more interesting question here: What are you going to need the DMM for? Why do you want to strictly stick to one?Personally I am a huge fan of the Fluke 8060A for audio related repairs. Then again, I see a lot of benefits in having a cheap Uni-T UT139C and / or one of those AtMega based component testers at hand.It all depends on the field of use. If you are into high-voltage electric circuitry, there are industrial meters for that as well as for specific fields of electronics.Maybe start with making a list of your demands and also write down what you like and dislike from the meters you already own.Then we can help you with suggestions based on that.Kind regards,Frederik

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 06:07:53 pm
content: No. Those two combined are good combo.Despite all the crap people try to sell you, BM867/BM869 outperform F87V in most parameters. BM869 for quite a margin too..Brymens don't have Fluke smart diode/continuity mode, but you have F177 for that if needed.For instance, people mention legendary Fluke 8060A for audio work. BM869 has both dB mode and it is flat to almost 300kHz....It is better replacement for Fluke 8060A than Fluke 87V that goes only to 20kHzFluke 289 is one if you want something better in specs than BM869... Including size..Your meters are excellent, if you want something else, get a benchtop meter if you need one (4W resistance for instance).Except insanely expensive Gossen Metrawatt ones, no handheld has 4W ohms. Gossens cost so much you can buy nice benchtop for the money...Otherwise, just use two ones that you have to do projects, and enjoy...Regards,Sinisa

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2018, 10:20:04 pm
content: I think you are correct and I will keep the 2 I have and forget about the 87v. I think I just got bored and I would probably be pissed later if I sold those and got the 87v. I like the look of the 87v and I haven't used 1 before so probably just that was making me want 1. I think I just needed someone to point out the obvious like you did.Thanks loads....you probably saved me from doing something daft!

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 09:21:42 am
content: So.….. I sorted that itch right out!I kept my 2 meters too like I said I would so i did alright....I bought another scope!I picked up a little used fairly new Rigol 1054Z so we'll see when it arrives.It was going at what I thought a fair price on "Evilby" so decided to pick it up and add to my growing collection! I only have a Hantek 5102P now so I have been thinking about an upgrade. I may sell the Hantek but we'll see.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 09:40:38 am
content: Wise decisions all around

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 09:57:37 am
content: That's what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation buddy. " I AM LEARNING "Although I only really use a scope for hobby stuff and never properly in anger ("still too electronically dumb" LOL) I feel I've outgrown/got bored with the Hantek and I need more functions/buttons to press to progress any. LOL again!The Hantek was great to learn on as it is very basic and ideal for a complete beginner so easy to grasp the functions it does have and not overwhelming. I am looking forward to the upgrade and new learning curve.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 10:03:27 am
content: As always the best scope is the one that you have (that currently works). The DS1054Z is quite a bit better than the Hantek though. Learning curve isn't too bad. You can mostly work it out from the panel without reading the manual.As for boredom, this is dangerous. Quick scope count and I'm at 5 nowOn the subject of the Brymen I have a Keysight meter and needed a second one. So I ended up with a spreadsheet and the BM867 came on top, far above the Fluke 87V and the 177 so I got one. Best meter I've ever used if I'm honest. I was expecting it to take second place to the Keysight unit but nope the Keysight is relegated to crap duty now.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 10:21:33 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 28, 2018, 10:03:27 amYup, I agree boredom is very dangerous! I only have 2 scopes for now..well...my Tenma analogue and Hantek "may" make 1 between them. It will depend who you askI may sell them on or whatever now to make more room on my bench and at least someone else may get more use than I will from them leaving them on my shelve. I found both were just what I needed when teaching myself when I still really don't know much at all now never mind back then. We'll see! I think for a complete beginner they are just the ticket.I got my 867s after my 177 then I got a 289 after that and if i'm honest I like them all. I think my mind is made up as far as the 87v, unless 1 comes up much cheapness or whatever. Again... we'll see

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 11:07:55 am
content: To be honest, Fluke 87V is superb electricians meter. Robust, good protection, accuracy better than needed in field, meaning it will accurate for 10+years.It was not meant for electronics. If you do your work as a guy that maintains factory automation, it is excellent choice...For electronics (and that kind of money) there is, like, tons of other choices.If I were to drop that kind of money on a handheld, I would buy METRIX MTX 3292/3 (for a bit more) and get 100000 count meters that have most of functions of benchtop meter, graphing,logging, math and such.It is a very sophisticated instrument, superior to pretty much anything...So, as I said, do not get stuck in the past and with much hyped brands.. World moves on, every day..Also, the little DS1000Z, not perfect, but for the money, excellent scope. In hands of knowledgeable person you can do a lot with it.Regards,Sinisa.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 12:55:55 pm
content: I am looking forward to finding my way around the new scope. It will have loads of stuff on it I have never seen before that's for sure. I like the "help" button too, I will use that plenty for sure!I need the "help" button as I am teaching myself and I really don't know much. That will probably be the feature I use mostI think as far as the 87v goes I will forget about that, for now.... unless 1 crops up with a deal I cannot refuseThat's the thing with meters and stuff that you always seem to "need" another right?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 02:53:23 pm
content: Quote from: Terry01 on July 28, 2018, 12:55:55 pmWell, you don't need 87. It has nothing you already don't have. If you get another one, get one that has functions you don't have now, and you think you might need (or like).Like logging, graphing, bluetooth, low burden amps, high voltage diode test (for zeners and LEDs)..I personally think you would be better off getting one of those (expensive ones, cheap stuff is useless) SMD measurement tweezers, or semiconductor analyser ( Like Atlas or even maybe a cheap chinese ones). Those are really useful.If you keep in electronics, you will end up with crapload of equipment. If you are careful, you will not get 72 different multimeters that all do same thing. If you are buying new instruments, at least make sure it gives you new functionality that will be useful to you.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 04:32:59 pm
content: I agree 100%. The 87v doesn't give me any new features I don't already have. One funny thing is on the diode test it is my 177 that shows the supposed "better" meters up. Brymen 867s gives right around 3v, the Fluke 289 gives just over 5v and the Fluke 177 is like 7v - 7.3v!I honestly think I will sell off a couple of pieces of the test gear I don't use no more. It is just cheap stuff but is perfect for a beginner to learn on. It was for me anyways.I am thinking of joining one of the local Hackerspace clubs near me. I think I will benefit hugely from being around others who know so much more than me. I find so long as you are prepared to listen and try things for yourself most people don't mind helping you or sharing knowledge with you.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 05:11:08 pm
content: Whatever 2N3055 said.Two features I see myself using quite a lot recently when doing things around the house are the Zlow and the Smart ohms - both are present on my U1273A.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 12:48:50 am
content: I disagree. The 87 V is also suitable for a lot of routine electronic tasks during debugging and development. The second line of defense is a lab desktop meter like a Keysight 34401A or successors, or a scope.IMHO, cramping a lot of nifty or complicated mixed waveform measurements into a handheld meter provides poor ergonomics and can lead to misinterpreted results. On a decent scope you make less errorsin your judgement that without a true display of your signal. So - either a robust, but simple handheld meter, OR a big gun OR a scope. Overfeatured handheld meters are inefficient.RegardsWolfgang

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 07:08:02 am
content: @WolfgangYou can claim so about any meter including 10USD Aneng.And ergonomically, BM869/867 are same or better than F87V. Same rotating switch, sub functions with buttons. Bigger screen.Reading two measurement at the same time, without need to switch modes (with a third hand) all the time, is simpler to use.Brymens remember last mode you worked in in subfunctions. They are very simple and intuitive.Lack of capability is not simplicity and not and advantage. It is simply means you cannot do some stuff others can, when you need it.That is inefficient in my opinion. Of course, different people, different work and workflow. Whatever works for you.On the other hand I agree with you. Multimeters are for simple measurements. You need a scope to take a look at the signal. If I had to choose I would take good scope and simple meter. But good meter will be more precise for stuff it does well.So as always, tool for the job...But this topic was more about question does an OP should replace existing 2 very good meters with a single F87V.That together provide him with better functionality that single F87V.Instead of that, he actually bought a scope.So basically he did as you recommend.Now he has a scope, one simpler meter (F177) and one more functional for other more sophisticated measurements.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 07:39:47 am
content: Thanks for all the replies and as always tons of valid points and lots for the less clued up to learn from.The scope i bought should get delivered today so looking forward to finding out all about it.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 08:11:20 am
content: Welcome to the DS1000Z family!In case you do not already know it, here is the link to theDS1000Z buglistwith lots of information and entry points if you want to read up on your new device in the meantime.Kind regards,Frederik

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 08:26:59 am
content: Incidentally as a confidence builder, I haven’t noticed any bugs in daily use on mine.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 09:01:23 am
content: ... same with me. I updated it when I got it, afterwards the MSO1004Z-S (=DSO1004 with two ARBs and logic channels) did not create any problems.A good entry-level scope, and very portable.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 05:56:28 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on August 01, 2018, 08:11:20 amNice one! Thanks, i'll give it a look for sure. My scope arrived today so been checking it out, I like it!

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 05:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 01, 2018, 08:26:59 amThat's very good to hear! I hope i don't find any either.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 07:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 01, 2018, 07:08:02 amI don't agree with this. I'd much rather have a meter which implements all the essentials well without unnecessary clutter than the one that offers everything and a kitchen sink but skimping on quality in the process.Just because this meter has a component tester on it, doesn't make it better:Brymen flavor of the year vs Fluke 87V has been debated ad nauseam here and I don't mean to rekindle that discussion. Some folks prefer features it has over 87V. And that's fine. But Fluke 87V's clean design and implementation is definitely one of its strengths. It's why I prefer it to Fluke's 289 for instance.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 07:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on August 01, 2018, 07:15:43 pmOf course you disagree with something taken out of context.I wasn't talking 5 USD crap meter full of gimmick crap compared to Fluke 101. Obviously F101 is much better if that is your comparison.Question is, would you choose Fluke 116 instead BM869S. They have the same price in EU...Thesis was that BM869 was more complicated to use than F87V because it more featured.That is not true, it is not harder to use, it is in fact easier.BM869 doesn't have any gimmick functions. All it's functions are well designed an useful.I need certain measurement functions. In order to have them I payed to have them, and spent some time to learn how use them.It is called multimeter for a reason.If you need only to check for voltage presence you can use simple voltage tester.I have one of those too, for when I work on 240V. It is a safe device made for that purpose.But I didn't buy simplest one either, because I wanted to have RCD testing and such.As I said, tool for the job. As simple as possible, but not simpler than that. It has to be good enough.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 08:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 01, 2018, 07:51:24 pmHow did I take anything out of context? You were responding to @Wolfgang who said something I was speaking to precisely:QuoteWolfgang is right. Fluke 87V has a much more streamlined interface. No multiple readings on the screen either, less features and gimmicks, only essentials.Just the fact that Fluke 87V has like 4 times the battery life of new fancy meters makes it easier to use for me. I own 3 Fluke 87Vs and I can't remember the last time I had to replace the battery on either of them. It's been years. They just work any time I pick them up. When I get a low battery warning, I have weeks left of use.My point is simply this. If you like Brymen fine, I get it. You like the features it provides. I am not trying to disagree with you. Everyone has their own priorities.But to say that Fluke 87V's streamlined design is it's weakness is simply wrong. As there are a lot of us who prefer it exactly for that reason. This isn't even about Brymen vs. Fluke. Even when it comes to Fluke's own meters 87V stands above the rest in the compromise between features and clean design or simplicity of use.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 08:50:47 pm
content: Since the OPs question has been answered and we’re floating anyway:What is your opinion on one-knob turn vs. multi button press interfaces on a meter?I love the old Fluke 80xx and Voltcraft 6010 (Hung Chang 601) meters for their interface and though I sometimes really like the simplicity of my Fluke 70 series meters, I keep coming back to the devices with lots of dedicated buttons.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 08:59:27 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on August 01, 2018, 08:13:15 pmOut of contest was using 5 USD meter to illustrate that good honest meter that has only 2 but honest and good functions is better than piece of crap that doesn't even work properly... Of course it is better.That was not the question.. And on that topic..QuoteI didn't say that. I have great respect for F87 that I have used since 1996 in it's few incarnations. Been using Fluke equipment my whole life..I was arguing exactly in other direction, that I disagree that Brymen BM869 has a weakness in fact that it is more featured.It is not it's weakness. If anything, it's a strength. So I replaced F87V as my daily meter with BM869S, and have no problem with it's more functions. Not confused at all.I can measure AC and DC component of a signal at the same time. Voltage and frequency... With one instrument. With F87 I would have to connect two instruments at the same time to achieve same.It is not Brymen VS Fluke. It is actually question of simpler VS more featured instrument, and that drills down to type of work you do and personal choice.Like you mentioned, If it didn't have it's many shortcomings, I would prefer F289 to F87. Or some of higher end meters from other manufacturers.BM869S, like F87V, in my opinion is a very good compromise between features and clean design or simplicity of use for the expanded functions it has..For instance, much simpler than F289, with most of measurements (minus graphing that I don't find that important right now).And in my original post I said, if F87V is how you like it and it is more natural to you, I'm happy for you. Far be it from me to tell you how you do your stuff. Whatever works for you.You have your priorities. I respect that.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 09:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 01, 2018, 08:26:59 amNor have I...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 09:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on August 01, 2018, 08:50:47 pmI liked old Fluke 80xx series. You could operate it with one hand, much easier than with rotating knob. But today's meters are autoranging, so less of twiddling anyways. I guess both ways work..

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 09:39:59 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 01, 2018, 08:59:27 pmNo, the point I was making is that having more features is not always better. And in many cases can be worse like in the extreme example I gave between the $5 meters, but I also used the example of Fluke 289.Would you agree that Fluke 289 is not a piece of crap meter? Yet I think it's a worse meter for day to day electronics than a Fluke 87V.So I don't see how anything I said is out of context. Both aspects of my comment support the same point. More features is not always better.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 10:16:44 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on August 01, 2018, 09:39:59 pmI would agree that while it is not a piece of crap per se, it has horrible usability as a daily driver. If I had to choose between F87V and F289 and had no other choices, I would choose F87V, just like you. My point is that there are other meters that have more (and very useful) features than F87V, while being pretty much almost equally easy to use as F87V. And I chose those, and not F87V.QuoteI apologize for any misunderstanding stemming from a fact that English is not my native language.I don't try to argue with you that "..More features is not always better.." is wrong. I agree with that. Especially if those features are crap features on a crap meter. It doesn't help, like lipstick on a pig.But I argue that "More features are better if they are done right and in a way that meter is still logical and easy to use."As example BM869 I don't find anything harder to use than on F87V. It is simple and logical, and pretty much self explanatory.It is a good implementation. That one is better, with features.That is my opinion. I respect yours.So to bring our opinions together, if you compare two meters, one with simpler functions but very good, and other with hundreds of features that are hard to use and generally badly implemented, you should go with simpler, good one. Because that one is really good an the other one is not, it's crap.We agree here.But if you compare two instruments with comparable ergonomics, quality, both good instruments, but one is simpler model an other one is more featured, why would you insist on one that is inferior in capabilities? Reasons would be that simpler one is cheaper, or that you really know you would not ever, never, use those additional features. In that case you could choose to go with the simpler one anyways . And it would be good choice.Or you could just choose so because you like it that way.And that is fine.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 10:24:27 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on August 01, 2018, 09:39:59 pmI love my 289!I am never in a hurry or against the clock or anything like that though so can just doddle along and enjoy the meter. I can however see where someone just needing a quick measure or 2 during their working day could get frustrated with it being so slow to start up. Once it's going though it's just as quick as any of my other meters, I certainly haven't noticed it being overly slow in any of the ranges or modes. It's quite a big bulky meter for having in your pocket or whatever too. I have heard they chew through batteries also which would be a pain in the arse but to ne honest I am still on my 1st set, I don't use it all day every day though so that will help mine for sure.Oh....the mew scope is awesome too!