[AU] Buying Carbon Dioxide fire extinguishers... who knew it would be difficult? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 09:22:43 am
content: I'm looking to buy some CO2 extinguishers for my personal lab. After a quick Google, there are some companies selling no-name branded CO2 extinguishers online that claim they are "tested and approved" to the relevant Australian standard, however can one be sure? I'm not saying they won't do the job, but what's to say the seals won't leak after a year or two? Also, they are bloody expensive with 2KG of CO2 going for $120-$200 (I know, small price to pay for safety, but still.)Like most things, I like to stick with the big, reputable brands, in this case Chubb or Wormald but there is no information on their websites about how to purchase their products. It's almost like they don't want money from the general public.Given that fire extinguishers and fire blankets should be in every house and are mandated in every workplace, why isn't it easier (and cheaper) to source them?If anyone has managed to find a reputable source in Sydney, I'd love to hear from you, before I sink $1000 into fire protection gear.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 09:44:00 am
content: Whitworths are generally pretty good in regards to price, quality and customer support, you might want to have a look at their stuff first.Whitworths Chandleryhttps://www.whitworths.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=fire

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 09:50:34 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on April 17, 2018, 09:44:00 amThanks. I had a quick look, but like most hardware stores and retailers, they only sell dry chemical extinguishers for some strange reason. There is no way I'm spraying dry powder all over my gear in the case of an electrical fire.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:02:45 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 17, 2018, 09:57:11 amPowder is an absolute disaster. Even though your building doesn't burn down, it and everything in it is covered in fine powder. This generally means a total loss of any good or installation in the vinicity of the fire extinguished. In an electronics lab it would mean that any equipment is to be scrapped.This stuff is so fine that it gets in between the pages of books in a book case. It will literally be everywhere.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:06:17 am
content: A follow on from the Whitworths stock, you could try ringing Firebox and asking if they will supply you directly otherwise ask them for a local authorised distributor, they do service and have an extensive range of spare parts by the look of it, also based up your way as well.Firebox CO2 Extinguishers.http://www.firebox.net.au/products/c02_extinguisher.html

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:07:35 am
content: FWIW mate, a good pair of running shoes, fire blankets, buckets of sand, a very local Fire Brigade HQ, and a new-ish 30 meter garden hose with non-slip fittings, are a great 'standby'..just in in case Murphy Inc. has shares in the-enter your prefered OS sweatshoppe based vendor here-manufacture/supply of TooHungLow"Love You LongTime Limited Edition Mk11 Prortable Fiyre Extinctguishars"

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:46:38 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 17, 2018, 09:57:11 amAlmost all commercial buildings in Australia use CO2. It's a good "general" extinguisher for almost all types of fires, including electrical. It's easy to deploy and safe in most situations, plus it doesn't make a huge mess or get sucked up into sensitive electronics where it can cause damage. In addition, water sprinklers are mandatory, so in the event of an uncontrolled fire, the heat will trigger the glass ampoules within the sprinkler head to burst, the system will detect the loss in water pressure and kick in a water pump to deliver water to the tripped heads.Electrical labs or data centres will use either CO2, a special vaporising liquid specifically for electrical fires or a gas like Inergen. Chemical labs will generally use a combination of CO2 and ABE powder or special wet chemical extinguishers.Commercial kitchens will generally use CO2 for general areas and wet chemical for the cooking areas.As Mr. Scram said, powder is a major pain in the ass. After you get the fire out, you're left dealing with the aftermath of the powder. Even a small 1KG ABE extinguisher has enough of the fine powder to create a huge mess.

author: noidea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:47:56 am
content: Just look in the yellowpages / search for someone who does hydrostatic testing of cylinders and extinguishers. Most likely they will have some stock of good second-hand and probably new ones they'll sell.I picked one up in Perth a few years back that way

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:55:16 am
content: Given the name of the OP one would think he'd be installing a halon systembut seriously, don't do that, they're toxic

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 11:07:25 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 17, 2018, 10:07:35 amI appreciate it, but none of those are compatible with putting out electrical fires. Even fire trucks carry standard CO2 fire extinguishers for small fires, but by the time they turn up, it's going to do nothing.I have a small dry chemical extinguisher, but I'd rather not go squirting that into my server rack if the need arises.

author: PTR_1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 11:59:15 am
content: It took me a while to get a co2 extinguisher for the home office / lab. I ended up buying a seconds one (the black nozzle has a crack in it so they were selling it cheap) and then a friend had a 5kg one that his work had replaced.There is no way that I want a powder extinguisher anywhere near the equipment in the office. If I set one off, the damage bill would be more than 50 grand easily.Try some of the big players (Wormald, Chubb, bell fire or whoever is around your area) and see if they have any with broken nozzles that they can’t sell for full price and see if they will sell it to you a bit cheaper.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 01:24:59 pm
content: When you are used to powder or wet chemical extinguishers, a CO2 extinguisher empties itself surprisingly fast. If you ever have to use one in a fire, be sure you aim right before you turn it on, usually you only have a few seconds!I'm sure the OP knows that but since there are others reading this I thought it should be mentioned.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 04:24:54 pm
content: I wouldn't be surprised if in Oz you are not allowed to own CO2 extinguishers. That's how it has been till quite recently with welding gas cylinders, including CO2 and Argon. When I was young you could own those, but I recall the welding gas companies were able to get the government to outlaw private ownership of the cylinders. More money for the gas companies, since now they could enforce cylinder rental.Lately I hear it's now possible again to own gas cylinders, but the costs are still too high because not many people do it that way yet.Same would apply to CO2 extinguishers. More money for the big companies if they only rent out extinguishers.Have you tried actually phoning them and asking? And maybe they won't talk to anyone but commercial entities wanting large numbers of extinguishers for whole buildings, with multi-year maintenance contracts?My problem is how to ever get the CO2 extinguishers I have refilled, if I had to use them.But I much prefer pressurized water extinguishers. Easily maintained, can be pressurized with a standard air compressor. Make great super-soakers on hot summer days with the kids. As for electrical fires... in the household, what electrical fires? That won't have a grounded chassis? Or in which step one isn't just turning off the power at the board?Also... CO2 extinguisher fights in abandoned or under-demolition buildings. So much fun! You haven't lived unless you've crept up behind some friend in the dark and let them have it full blast in the back of the head from a couple of feet way. And how many layers of clothing are needed, to be able to take a full CO2 extinguisher charge at point blank range to the chest, without getting frostbite? A: a lot.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 07:16:49 pm
content: Many years ago I bought a bunch of water/air extinguishers on eBay for about $25 each. You unscrew the top and fill with water, then use a tire pump or air compressor to charge with air. One has a leaky valve, the others are still holding their charge 20+ years later. We did actually use one when a bunch of turkey grease caught fire in the oven. A couple short blasts against the back of the oven atomized the water and put the grease out. (I knew not to direct a STREAM of water on the burning grease.)For commercial use, these extinguishers need to be retired after just a few years, so there is a good supply of just a few years old units.Jon

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 08:51:16 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 17, 2018, 11:39:42 amI guess different countries, different safety requirements. However regardless of the type of extinguisher, none of them are "maintenance free". Actually, maintenance is probably the wrong word to use, all of them require inspection to ensure they are still charged (which is just a matter of looking at the pressure guage). Regardless of the fire fighting agent (gas, foam, water...) they are all stored under pressure using a gas as a propellant. They all require routine inspection to make sure the gas hasn't leaked, rendering the extinguisher useless. They all should undergo pressure testing (albeit infrequently). When I was in the fire brigade years ago, we filled our own water extinguishers using nothing more than tap water and an air compressor.CO2 doesn't have a "shelf life" either. It doesn't go "bad" where as wet chemical ones can depending on the chemical used (usually AFFF).

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 09:27:52 pm
content: Not all fire extinguishers are pressurised all the time, some have a glass vile of acid and the water in them is loaded with bicarbonate. Companies like Chubb don't sell directly as all their products need regular service checks, you have to go to a company that sells the units along with a service contract.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 10:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 17, 2018, 09:27:52 pmThese soda/acid extinguishers were in all the schools when I was in grade school, haven't seen one in about 50 years. The problem with them is if you jostle them it can spill the acid, and it won't work when needed. Also, the cans tended to corrode. I'm quite sure they have been illegal in the US for a number of decades.Jon

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 11:11:41 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on April 17, 2018, 10:07:37 pmYep, likewise, I've never seen one in Australia. I doubt they would comply with any Australian standards anymore.

author: DeanCording
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2018, 11:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 17, 2018, 10:07:35 amAs someone who often drives a fire truck, I can say that we don't carry CO2 extinguishers as standard equipment because they aren't that effective.Firstly, whilst they are safe for live electrical fires, they aren't that effective if the power is still running. The CO2 soon disperses and the fire reignites. Powder extinguishers include mica dust which can insulate electrical faults.Secondly, on normal fires they aren't that effective either. They work by starving the fire of O2 with a cloud of CO2 but the CO2 quickly disperses and the residual heat if often enough to reignite the fire. Powder extinguishers work by spraying sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) everywhere. The heat of the fire causes it to break down and produce CO2, which has the double benefit of starving the fire of O2 and removing heat. As an added bonus, the powder doesn't disperse and it acts for longer so you need a lot less powder than CO2.So, powder is far superior for extinguishing fires compared to CO2 but is messy and corrosive. If you have a live electrical fire, first line of attack is to remove all power. After that water the best extinguishing medium. If you can't remove the power, powder is your best bet.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 12:39:40 am
content: I'm fully aware that CO2 isn't the best for electrical fires however it is still suitable and for me, will minimise the damage to otherwise unaffected devices. The amount of combustible material within my server rack and inside my equipment is minimal. If I'm there to fight the fire, I'm also able to shut off power. It just means I need a slightly larger CO2 tank to ensure an extended discharge.Spraying powder or foam around will be just as destructive if I just let the whole rack burn. It's a compromise.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 01:01:33 am
content: Quote from: DeanCording on April 17, 2018, 11:48:46 pmOr monoammonium phosphate. Mmm, corrosive. Potassium bicarbonate, also somewhat corrosive. Or a few other agents, just about all of which are pretty effective atdestroying everything in the vicinity.Yes, powder is good at stopping fires. It's also good at ruining absolutely everything within shouting distance of said fire. A good CO2 blast is quite effective at dealing with the sorts of fires we're concerned with.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 01:24:58 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 17, 2018, 04:24:54 pmWhat a waste!----everybody knows CO2 extinguishers are for fast cooling beer!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 01:48:25 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 17, 2018, 10:55:16 amHalon 1211 isn't that bad, and it's far more effective than anything else while being less damaging too...... that is until the greenies got it banned (but you can still get it from China for surprisingly low prices...) because it depletes the ozone layer. Nevermind the huge quantities of greenhouse gas and other toxins a fire produces...

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 01:54:17 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 17, 2018, 11:39:42 amThe firefighting halons are actuallylesstoxic than CO2. CO2flood fire suppression systems (when they were in use) were operated at levels that were about 10 times the level (30% v/v) where they begin to show toxicity (3% v/v, 10% v/v is fatal in a few minutes), you can remain conscious in 3 times the level of halon that was typically used in halon flood systems (5% v/v).QuoteYou won't find any. All the halons were due to be phased out by 2010 under the Montreal Protocol. They were generally replaced by FM200 aka HFC-227.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 01:57:05 am
content: Don't, EVER, use powder. It's the worst thing imaginable. It's just a tiny bit better than having everything burn down or sprayed to death by a fireman who can't aim. It gets EVERYWHERE, corrodes all bare metals, including electronics, and sucks up water because it's hygroscopic.Someone once thought it was funny to use that in my apartment for no reason. Horrible.Only good thing is it kills fire - if there is any ffs - and it's not toxic. I'm happy about the last part because I'm pretty sure there is still some the walls and ceilings.Quote from: amyk on April 18, 2018, 01:48:25 amIt's not THAT bad, yea, there's worse: "Halon 1211 has fairly low toxicity. The lethal concentration for 15 minute exposition is about 32%."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BromochlorodifluoromethaneWhat kind or argument is that anyway? "Because fire is bad for the atmosphere let's use extinguishers that are bad for the atmosphere, even though there are better solutions?" Killing fire with fire is stupid if you can also kill it with water.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:00:23 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 18, 2018, 01:54:17 amYou can find anything that is banned ANYWHERE in China, for sell, sold under a different name. There are documentations from undercover journalists.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:06:12 am
content: Quote from: Distelzombie on April 18, 2018, 02:00:23 amI think around here that's taken as a given, unfortunately.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:07:54 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 18, 2018, 02:06:12 amWhat? You were objecting!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:16:55 am
content: Quote from: Distelzombie on April 18, 2018, 02:07:54 amI haven't a clue what you think I was objecting to.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:24:30 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 18, 2018, 01:54:17 amThat

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:41:45 am
content: In my home lab, I have a small bottle of 1211 Halon. I've yet to do anything stupid enough to need it.Looks like we can still buy it.http://www.airgas.com/p/A61C352TS?agcert=Certona:Airgas+Recommends:A61C352TS:5:A61361:nosaleVideo comparing 1211 w/ carbon dioxidehttps://youtu.be/Aw025Ho8KyM?t=192

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:50:52 am
content: Quote from: Distelzombie on April 18, 2018, 02:24:30 amLanguage issues I guess. In English that's not what I'd call an objection, that's just a statement of fact. An objection would be to say something to the effect of "I don't want you to do that/don't think you ought to do that" which is very different from "You won't be able to do that". That there is somewhere in the world were one might find a halon extinguisher for sale doesn't mean that Blueskull, in the US, will find one down the hardware store, or could even lawfully import one.I'm assuming that all the civilized countries actually got around to following their Montreal Protocol obligations. Certainly here in the UK we were not fitting new halon systems as long ago as 2000, when I was last involved in specifying fire suppression system for installation at my then employers premises. That was well in advance of the deadline for an outright ban on them.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 03:15:55 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 18, 2018, 02:41:45 amFunnily enough so have I. Now, what are we bid for these, now forbidden, delights of the fire-fighting arts?QuoteThat looks to be an aircraft specific bottle. I wonder if there's a continuing permitted use for flight systems? Weight/toxicity being traded off against ozone depletion potential? Similar to the way that CFCs continued to be permitted for medical uses (e.g. asthma inhalers) well after they'd been withdrawn from other uses. Eventually those were replaced with HFCs and I think they are looking at eventually phasing out HFCs from medical use just as they are beginning to be phased out of other uses. Everything else that used to use CFCs or HFCs as propellants now seems to use propane or some other hydrocarbon gas - which, from a fire safety point of view, I find less than comforting. Somehow I don't think we'll see that in asthma inhalers or there are going to be some very messy accidents.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 03:37:22 am
content: You can get Halatron fire extinguishers for a reasonable price. Just do a google search.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 03:43:34 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 18, 2018, 01:54:17 am...Quote from: Cerebus on April 18, 2018, 02:50:52 amYeah, you're right. I read that as: "Halon is no longer sold and impossible to get since it's manufacturing was stopped 2010" which is close but false. oopsQuote from: mtdoc on April 18, 2018, 03:37:22 amThats a different chemical that is not as destructive to the ozone layer, but thanks, I take a look.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 04:36:10 am
content: All good, I've sourced a supply of CO2 extinguishers from an Australia-wide wholesaler, they were more than happy to help out, I just needed to ask.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:51:25 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 18, 2018, 04:36:10 amGreat. But are you going to tell us if the extinguishers are for sale or lease, and what is the maintenance deal on them? What sort of costs, especially for refills? Can't name the company? Did you price compare between say Chubb and Wormald?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 07:19:28 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 18, 2018, 06:51:25 amFor sale, no maintenance agreement. Treated as a one-off sale. Cost for a 5KG CO2 extinguisher is under $150. I don't want to name the company at this stage. I'll speak to the manager there first to see if he is happy with it. Sourcing Chubb or Worlmald gear unless you're in "the business" seems almost impossible.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 11:27:24 am
content: Just have some of these in your lab, they wont make a mess or anything.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 11:36:55 am
content: "if he is happy with it" Ah, I see.Well, good to know it's possible at least. Did they mention if they will refill random customer-owned CO2 extinguishers, and the cost?Do you know what the expiry span of the cylinders is? Any?Hopefully not like propane cylinders, that are not legal to refill after ten years of life. At least not without getting them pressure-tested, but there don't seem to be any economical channels to actually do that.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 11:41:25 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 18, 2018, 11:27:24 amSome guy, apparently.I was searching for Halotron extinguisher but couldn't find a retailer or a single extinguisher anywhere. On the AP website is an email address from someone in Germany, so I just asked that dude. No reply yet. I really like these things now. They sound cool and they appear to me as the best thing to have if there's a fire in a room with stuff you actually like.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 11:53:45 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 18, 2018, 11:36:55 amI'm not worried about life, provided they comply with Australian standards (and they do), they should last well and truly for several years. I think in my entire time as a firey, I might have come across one extinguisher that leaked and there is no guarantee that it hadn't been discharged previously.I'm using them in my own personal lab. I can conduct the inspections myself to my own satisfaction. I care not whether it's "legal". At the end of the day, if the thing is charged, I squeeze the trigger, CO2 comes out.I didn't ask them about refills. Even if they aren't refillable, if I have to spend a few hundred dollars in 10 years time to replace them with new ones, money well spent. I spend more on coffee throughout a single year.They are pressure tested when they leave the factory at pressures well and truly beyond their charge pressure. That will do me fine.I'm not being coy because I want to be, but because I don't know the reasons why someone can't just walk in off the street to Bunnings (or whoever) and buy one of these. It seems like bullshit to me and I doubt there is any legal reason for it (I have asked the company specifically this and am waiting for their reply). This company is doing me a favour for reasons members of this forum don't need to know, but if they are happy for me to promote their brand, I'll do so and share what I've learned. In the mean time, I don't want to name a company who might not want to be named (for whatever reason).The only thing I'll say at this stage is they have distributors in most states in Australia and are a wholesale provider of fire fighting equipment to various organisations. A little bit of Googling and simply asking the question will probably get you similar results, without having to resort to paying something stupid like $200 for a 2KG extinguisher off some online-only store.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:28:04 pm
content: We have a hand-pump one like this in the shop. Real handy if you have small fires often and super easy to refill.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 08:23:59 pm
content: I've got one of these in my lab. Easier and quicker to throw small flaming electronics in this than to waste my fire extinguisher.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 10:34:11 pm
content: The response from my supplier was this:"Normally if anyone from the public would approach us we wouldn’t sell to them, we also don’t even sell to builders, electricians or even facilities maintenance companies. We wholesale to Fire Protection companies only. Some of our wholesale competitors would have sold to the general public but we don’t. Chubb and Wormald are service companies, they install fire protection systems they don’t retail products. It’s kind of like walking onto a building site and trying to buy screws from the builder. ABE’s are the most common extinguishers because of how versatile they are, they do almost all fire situations very very well. CO2 is only better for electrical fires and if you want to protect the actual equipment not just extinguish the fire."So I guess it just comes down to a combination of "popularity" and being able to make a profit. In a business environment, extinguishers are inspected, tested, replaced frequently which forms part of the business. Home users are unlikely to do this.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 03:04:27 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 18, 2018, 08:23:59 pmThat is, weirdly, a beautiful picture. The light works perfectly, the colors work... I would buy it. Good on ya, marketing.Anyway, isn't the ground getting burned if you throw flaming stuff on a metal container? Does it sit on bricks? It's not water tight, is it?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 03:40:12 am
content: Quote from: Distelzombie on April 19, 2018, 03:04:27 amHa, ha - I copied from a google search but I have the same one in my lab. So far I've not had to throw any raging inferno's into it.My lab is in my basement with a concrete floor (covered by a rug). Hard to imagine any burning electronics that would be amenable to throwing into the metal bucket but also be be in danger of heating up the bucket enough to burn the ground. Putting the lid on it should put the fire out quick enough in any case.It is water tight - it's a bucket! Why do you ask?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 07:02:58 am
content: I use CO2 extinguishers for both a homebrew keg and a fishtank (CO2 injection for plant growth). I got them from the local "Fire solutions" places. Both reconditioned, fully tested and full for about £25 each. To refill them I just take them back and swap them for a full one for £15.In all the offices I have worked in the FE stands have one water, one CO2, although I have seen foam once or twice. In offices fires will be paper, furnishings or electrical. Smothering blankets also appear in kitchens which have anything more than a microwave.Interestingly the local gas supplier would not supply a residential address, telling me that CO2 was a hazard. I tried to argue that was my risk not theirs but they refused to sell me it.The hospitality trade suppliers would provide me CO2, but only if I used the same bottles they used as they would test each on return and only provide me a full one if the test passed. I do have a pub bottle, but it's not the same size as the local supplier uses and I would have to pay a surcharge to upgrade my bottle. The FE is cheaper.... there are caveats though due to it being a syphon bottle. So any use that is not trickle flow (such as priming or cleaning a keg) it needs used upside down or it freezes the regulator and that can get scary.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 07:12:22 am
content: Nowhere near as pretty a bin, but these old steel office bins are worth their weight in gold. More modern ones made of mesh or plastic are just stupid.This particular one really saved my arse once long ago. I'd been using liquid propane in a styrofoam container to freeze things. (Teenagers, sheesh!)Fine, except there's a boil-off, and propane gas is heavier than air. There was a lot of untidy stuff on the table and floor. Some spark ignited the sheet of propane gas. Whhompf! The propane burn lasted about one second, but left dozens of small spot fires on the bench and floor. The most spectacular one was a very old drafting setsquare, that was made of nitrocellulose. A corner of that had been sticking out from a stack of papers and magazines. Nitrocellulose is effectively guncotton, doesn't need oxygen to burn, and burns fast and hot. The stack of papers started shooting a horizontal sheet of flame out the sides.I knew there was no way to put it out, so picked up the entire mess and dropped it into this bin. Then put a board on top. That gave me enough time to put out all the other minor fires.It's now my machineshop bin. It's twice had 'oily rag' type fires start in it, from welding sparks. Not a problem, just cover the top.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 08:58:49 am
content: Firefighters often say: 30 seconds, a glass of water, 2 minutes, a bucket of water, 5 minutes, a water truck and after? One does what one can.The big secret is to extinguish a fire as soon as possible, at its beginning.This is all the usefulness of a fire extinguisher.But to use a fire extinguisher other than a CO2 extinguisher in a workshop, that means the probable loss of all the expensive measuring instruments that we have ....That's why the only valid solution is in my opinion the 5Kgs CO2 extinguisher .... easy to use, without causing any damage.I think we should all have one.I bought mine used CO2 fire extinguisher for just 50 euros .... It is like new and was regularly inspected.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 09:52:36 am
content: People's reactions to a fire outbreak are sometimes amazing.I was in the Brussel's metro and arriving at the station, the electrolytics of the chopper exploded several times .... After a white smoke coming from under the subway train, a thick black smoke followed, showing that the wiring caught fire.Everyone was watching, doing nothing, not even the employees of the subway.I grabbed a powder extinguisher and sprayed it under the car.I managed to extinguish the beginning of the fire and everything was extinguished when the fire department arrived.The most interesting thing is that no one thanked me for probably saving a subway train of destruction, but also that the employees of the subway were angry at my intervention and ordered me to leave the station.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 12:26:01 am
content: Quote from: oldway on April 19, 2018, 09:52:36 amNo doubt angry at the embarrassment of not knowing when to use a fire extinguisher, despite being presumably trained employees.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 07:17:18 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 17, 2018, 10:02:45 amI think that's a bit hyperbolic. True it does make a huge mess, but I've cleaned up after dry chemical extinguishers on a couple of occasions and compressed air got it out of equipment fairly easily. It's effectively just white dust.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 07:27:21 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 21, 2018, 07:17:18 amIt's not "just" white dust though. The bulk of it is Monoammonium Phosphate which is slightly acidic. The trouble is, it shouldn't be vacuumed up using a normal vacuum cleaner. Not only is it a complete bitch to clean, unless you get every last little bit, you risk corroding components.CO2 is almost as effective, leaves no residue and attacks only the fire, not any surrounding equipment. Yes, you might need more of it compared to ABE powder, but considering it costs around $25/kg retail, I'm not complaining.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 07:35:24 am
content: I suppose another option is plain old fashioned water. Cut the power, hose it down, I realize the idea of using water on any sort of electrical equipment sounds crazy on the surface but it's not as nutty as it seems. It's very effective for extinguishing fires, and it generally cleans up easily.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 08:42:23 am
content: For me the setup in my rooms full of expensive electronics is CO2 extinguishers with tested powder extinguishers hanging beside them as plan B. Those kitchen fireproof blankets can be handy to have nearby too to throw over nearby equipment if someone else is there to do so while you are dealing with the extinguisher.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 08:52:24 am
content: I put out a serious fire without any fire extinguishers or blankets. Saved my house.Chip pan, hot oil fire which had been burning for a good few minutes, flames well across the ceiling.When it comes to the crunch you have to get innovative. I took the kitchen towels out of the drawer, dumped them in the sink with the dishes and carefully laid them over the top of the burning pan. Fire out in seconds.Different people respond differently in emergency situations. I tend to go cold calm and act. My brother however decided it was a great idea to panic about the smoke and ran and opened the back door providing fresh cool air for the fire, nearly killing me when the fire blossomed in front of me as I laid the first tea towel over it. Bloody idiot. "DONT OPEN THAT DOO...." too late.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 10:01:54 am
content: Quote from: paulca on April 21, 2018, 08:52:24 amSure and good on you for thinking on your feet. My need for CO2 was specifically for a server room and some other electronic equipment. It's highly unlikely there will ever be a fire but if there is, I want to lessen the damage as much as possible, that means no powder. In normal situations, wet chemical or water should never be used in an electrical fire unless you take proper precautions or have been trained to (and yes, you can put out an electrical fire, even live high voltage gear, safely with water, if you know how).For an oil / kitchen fire, smothering with a blanket is probably the best first course of action. There is no need to discharge an extinguisher for a small pot or pan of burning oil. It's not going anywhere.However in your situation I'd be very concerned about the level of breathable air in the room. If it's low enough that the fire is starved of oxygen, then you shouldn't be in there. Low oxygen levels are one thing, but you're also breathing in Carbon Monoxide, airborne particulates and all manner of dangerous chemicals. Your brother may have actually prevented you from becoming a victim. It's really easy to get tunnel vision and time flies when the adrenaline is pumping. If you can't extinguish a fire in a short space of time (30 seconds), then get the hell out.EDIT: For a good test of your evacuation plan, blindfold yourself and see how long it takes for you to locate keys (if required), unlock and open your point(s) of exit. Start from a position where you are most likely to be if a fire alarm activates (laying in bed for example) and close all the internal doors as you would normally do when sleeping.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 10:14:04 am
content: I think you were very lucky. I've been in exactly the same situation except it was perhaps only 10-15 seconds since the fire started when I arrived to fight it.I too tried to go for the 'wet tea towel' method, but smoke formed and filled the place so quickly that I couldn't see anything (or breathe properly) and just finding a tea towel was an impossibility. So I dropped to my hands and knees and attempted to open an exterior door at the other end of the kitchen to vent the smoke and give me a chance to see and fight the fire. I tried to find, by touch, the key to the door and despite knowing exactly where it was couldn't. I retreated, closed the kitchen door, evacuated the building, and called the fire brigade. All of this was done in a deliberate, calm fashion. From seeing the flash to being forced out of the house was perhaps 45 seconds top, probably closer to 30.Anyone who hasn't been there will never appreciate how quickly smoke and fumes render everybody in the vicinity incapable of fighting a fire, possibly incapable of finding their way out of completely familiar surroundings. It doesn't matter how calm or logical you are, you have scant seconds to tackle a fire in an enclosed space before conditions reach the point that only someone with breathing apparatus and decent protective clothing has a reasonable chance of being an effective fire fighter.It's only once you've 'been there' that you realise all the talk of planned, practised escape routes makes complete and utter sense. If you haven't already planned and practised this for your house and co-habitants, do it now.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 02:57:30 pm
content: You must choose an easy and quick solution...The 5Kg carbon dioxyde extinguisher is the best solution, no doubt about it.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 03:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on April 21, 2018, 02:57:30 pmWhy is it better than a halatron extinguisher?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 04:37:01 pm
content: You means halotron extinguisher ?I have nothing against halotron extinguisher but it is more expensive to buy and to recharge and not as easy to find on the market as CO² extinguisher. (at least in Europe, I don't know the situation in Australia.)

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 05:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 21, 2018, 03:28:40 pmCan’t speak for what is available in AUS or Europe, but recently I looked into the various types available here in the USA, and determined that HALOTRON (the replacement for bannned Halon) was the best choice for my computer room. These are used in expensive race cars, airplanes, etc. I bought the Amerex brand, (Halotron #397) one if not the biggest manufacturers here, you see their standard powder versions on every floor in every office building.I have a few powder types when and if the HALOTRON runs out, if the fire is still going. At that point, I won’t care about the gear anymore. The cost difference is significant for many. My HALOTRON was $375.00 versus $65 US, for the standard powder types, but we all know how expensive our gear is in comparison. I pray I never have to use any of them, but like the old saying: “HOPE FOR THE BEST, PREPARE FOR THE WORST”.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 05:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 21, 2018, 10:14:04 amYour post regarding your experience, is the BEST in this thread! People have so many misconceptions about what they may or may not do when a fire breaks out, but the biggest miscalculation is the TIME FACTOR. As you have explained, you may have LESS then 60 seconds to do anything. While I may have gone a little overboard on how many smoke detectors I have, what I’ve learned is by the time a smoke detector goes off, it could give you just enough time to escape in many common types of building fires. Often it’s a night fire, power goes off, you are in the dark, may be hard to breath etc. TIME becomes a major enemy, not in your favor. ALWAYS have a quick escape plan, you can only buy new gear, or house if you are alive!Very well written post, thanks for sharing it.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 05:39:08 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on April 21, 2018, 04:37:01 pmHalotron (not Halon which it replaced) is readily available and inexpensive in the US. I don't know about other countries. In fact I think for home use it's easier and cheaper to get that CO2.One advantage of halotron I think is that you can get a pretty small extinguisher that is more than adequate for a home electonics lab. The CO2 extinguishers tend to be much larger (and more expensive.)The larger halotron extiguishers have an advantage over the same sized CO2 extinguishers in that they will work on class A fires as well as class B and C fires.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 06:59:58 pm
content: Halcyon changed his explanations.In his first post, he wrote:"I'm looking to buy some CO2 extinguishers for my personal lab."And then, he wrote:"My need for CO2 was specifically for a server room and some other electronic equipment."It should be known whether it is an application for hobbyist or professional and what is the value or importance of the equipment to protect?All the server rooms I visited were protected by an automatic halon gas fire extinguishing system.If you want serious protection, there is no question of relying on human intervention.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 07:14:34 pm
content: Halotron is a HCFC and is being phased out. I believe 2020 is the date when it will no longer be legal to manufacture.In the future the alternative would be something like Novec 1230.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 07:42:09 pm
content: Quote from: helius on April 21, 2018, 07:14:34 pmHere is a document that claims otherwise:http://amerex-fire.com/upl/downloads/library/halotron-i-just-the-facts.pdf

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 08:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on April 21, 2018, 07:42:09 pmInteresting, regardless I’m glad I bought my 10lbs Halotron last year.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 08:41:17 pm
content: Halon 1211 is still being sold also (recycled through "halon banks"). But as stocks dwindle, the price will become uncompetitive compared to chemicals that are not banned.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 10:05:08 pm
content: With fire extinguishers, you are generally required by most insurers to have an annual check by a "certified competent person" and to have a certificate of inspection on the extinguisher, and also for all of the pressure vessels have a current pressure test certificate, which here is every 5 years. Dry powder generally has to be at least turned over every 6 months and shaken so the powder flows freely inside, and CO2 and Halon do not need it.Stored pressure has been outlawed for years, as the pressure vessels can corrode internally, as the valving is not airtight, and allows humid air to enter the cylinder, and this, along with the MAP powder fill, corrodes the cylinder from the inside out silently, meaning that using such a unit has a very high risk of it detonating when the internal CO2 pressurising cylinder is released into the container. Hose reels as well need the annual check for condition and flow, and are best as well NOT used as a general purpose washing hose, as this often means the hose is either damaged and broken, or the reel seals are worn and leak if used, resulting in poor water flow when used, or the hose is cut shorter than the regulation length ( here 15m for any reel) when it breaks from flexing.Halon is still the only allowed agent in certain applications, mainly aircraft extinguishers ( hard to get a certified replacement that has the same properties, and is not corrosive to aluminium) and for manned space flight. As well the only thing used for fire bottles on aircraft engines, nothing else works there to put out burning jet fuel so fast and effectively, yet still have the same compact volume for the same fire kill ability.Purchasing CO2 is harder yes, but I have a few CO2 units at home, as they are very useful, and one in the car as well. Have used the car one, and it was very effective at putting the fire out as well, and no damage done further to the vehicle as well, for which the owner was grateful, though he did also have a freshly broken window to go with the burnt fuel line that caught fire, I needed to open the locked door, and the CO2 extinguisher made a very useful fireman’s key. Also have dry powder in the kitchen, and as well some retired Halon units, as they are still fine and holding pressure, and are a lot easier to clean up from.Been in a burning building as well, and yes you do have only a limited time to react to the smoke, more so than the fire, the smoke is the biggest killer.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 10:28:35 pm
content: I remember reading an electronics book which recommended a powder type fire extinguisher in the lab, saying that whatever caught fire can be cleaned up with compressed air afterwards and salvaged. Is there a kind safe for electronics or were the through hole electronics of the day simply less likely to be damaged than modern SMD stuff?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 10:29:15 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on April 21, 2018, 10:05:08 pmI suspect that a lot of professional firemen do the same, saves the walk back for the axe or sledgie. One of the funniest things I've seen was a photo of a very posh BMW that had been parked illegally next to a fire hydrant, therewasa fire, and the attending firemen decided that the best hose route to the hydrant was through the BMWs windows using a firemans 'key'.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2018, 10:39:30 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on April 21, 2018, 06:59:58 pmNot at all. Both remain true and valid. But just to clarify... I need multiple extinguishers for private use in my own home. I have my own small electronics "lab" but also a dedicated server/storage room with a half-height rack full of gear plus a large UPS. The highest risk of fire (apart from the kitchen) is in that room because equipment is running 24/7/365 and the room is rarely inhabited, for the most part it's closed off to the rest of the house. There is also a dedicated smoke detector/alarm in that room which is linked to all the other alarms/detectors in the house.Automated protection would be nice, but it's also very expensive. The best solution for me which fits in with my budget are manual CO2 extinguishers. Someone is home most of the time so chances of quick intervention in case of a fire are high and there are 5 main exit points if the fire gets too large to extinguish safely.If in the highly unlikely event that the house burns down, I have home/contents insurance and good backups of my data.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 06:50:42 am
content: What about making your own automatic extinguisher activated only at night or when there is nobody at home, using a CO² extinguisher directed to the server with lever actuated by a weight and an electronic control ?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 07:49:33 am
content: Quote from: oldway on April 22, 2018, 06:50:42 amDoing that a small CO2 cylinder will be not effective, you would want a large pressure cylinder with a high pressure control valve on it, and then steel pipes leading to a set of discharge nozzles so that when the smoke or fire alarm trips there is, after a 30 second delay, to warn with a siren that discharge is to occur, and allow a stop if the room is attended, to discharge the cylinder and flood the room to displace all the air in it. Replacing agent can be CO2 or even dry nitrogen, as you just have to drop oxygen concentration below around 10% to stop most fires from burning. Doing so is what the most common automatic data centres use for fire protection, using big cylinders of high pressure gas, nitrogen, Co2, Argon or other inert gas mixes for the quench gas. Some will even have a SF6 fill, guaranteed to put out even burning magnesium fires quickly and safely. Only thing it will not put out is oxygen fluoride fires, but if you have that stuff around your best bet in all cases is a good pair of running shoes, permanently on your feet.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 02:20:24 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on April 22, 2018, 07:49:33 amAll this for a single home server in a half-height rack?It is not full of nitrocellulose, only electronic stuff that does not catch fire that easy...You must suffer from fire phobia, paranoia or a real sense of humor ... You are kidding for sure, it can only be a joke ...A simple mobile cart with a 5Kg CO² fire extinguisher placed in front of the server, with diffuser directed towards the front of the server and preconized automatic control, and it is solved.There is no danger of emptying the fire extinguisher in the room that is not usually occupied .... At most it is necessary to provide a small delay of 15 seconds sufficient to confirm the signal of the smoke detector.As I said, the automatic control is only connected at night and when there is no one in the house.In the event of a false alarm, one loses a 5 kg refilling of co², it does not cost a fortune.In case of actuating of the fire extinguisher, it should also been recomended to power off the whole server rack.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 02:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on April 22, 2018, 02:20:24 pmYou're not thinking this through. Many people can attest from personal experience that a 5kg CO2fire extinguisher will propel a 70kg man in a wheeled office chair - the same impulse applied to a relatively unloaded cart will go flying.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 04:54:49 pm
content: The mobile carts generally have a lock on the 4 wheels.With the weight of the fire extinguisher plus the weight necessary to activate the lever + the weight of the cart, I doubt that it would flies .... It will not move even one centimeter.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 08:38:26 pm
content: You are all over-thinking this waaaaay too much.As 'oldway' said, this is just for a home server room/lab. I'm not paying for an automated system. A simple 5KG hand-held extinguisher is plenty. If I'm not home and there is a fire, unlucky. That's what the fire brigade is for.Inside the server rack, not much is combustible and if something did fail in a catastrophic way, it's likely it would be contained inside it's own chassis. Sure there will be a bit of smoke but this is why I chose CO2 over ABE powder. Lets say a switch goes up in flames, I want to put the switch out, not spray powder all through the NAS servers and Hypervisors which are running perfectly fine.

author: JohnMc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 11:35:48 am
content: Got several CO2 extinguishers for free several years ago. Ontario or Canada changed to rules that you had to have dry powder ABC. If dry powder is the recommended type by whatever government body in Australia. The big box stores maybe just doing some CYA and only selling that type.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2018, 08:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: JohnMc on May 01, 2018, 11:35:48 amAs far as I know it's not mandated anywhere. As I mentioned before, most businesses and large office buildings here have CO2 (if not both CO2 and ABE) in most areas. There is nothing to say I can't use one at home, it's just not the "done thing". It's a bit like not being able to walk into a retail store and buy enterprise computing hardware off the shelf. There are companies which will sell CO2 to private buyers but they usually charge something stupid like $100/kg.I really don't see why it is the way it is. CO2 is a great general purpose extinguisher that is suitable for almost all types of fires. If it's good enough for me to use at work, it's good enough for my home.