Reduce electronic waste by removing the P.S. from larger consumer electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 06:20:48 pm
content: I was just thinking, inspired by this thread -https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/this-is-sad/why the larger consumer electronics equipment could not be soldwithoutbuilt-in power supplies, thus eliminating some recycling waste. Take for example ham radio equipment. Most of the ham radio equipment I have has no built-in P.S, and that's the case with most ham radio equipment. You can see in the pic that the HF rig, the antenna tuner on top of it, the VHF rig, and the LED light in the meter are all powered by the 13.8 V supply at the left of the table (see pic below).For example, the industry would need to decide on a common voltage - say 13.8 V. Then you could pick a P.S. with the amperage you needed, and power all your stuff - Amp, TV, DVD, all that stuff. If your TV dies, you can go buy another, and simply plug it into the common P.S. It would also cost less, and there would be less electronic waste.For your main entertainment area, you simply pick a 13.8V P.S. with the appropriate amperage and hook your equipment up to that with a power distribution device. For individual devices, they'd decide on a common connector and you can just use the same brick with any new device you buy. Well why couldn't the consumer market operate like that?I don't see why they couldn't come together on a common P.S., as they do with other standards such as HDMI and so on. At least it would be a start.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 06:44:00 pm
content: Well then you'd need additional power supply circuitry inside of the machine itself to bring down 13.8V to the appropriate logic level and operating voltages.If they were so concerned about the power supplies dying, I think they would just design them so they wouldn't fail in the first place. (i.e. Let's not cut the cost of a $30 power supply to $10 by using the shittiest of one hung low parts.)But I guess that's part of the gimmick. By the time something fails in 4 years, the consumer will think "Well it was old (ha!) anyway, might as well get one of those 4K LED Super HD 4D TVs!"I think thee manufacturers could care less if their power supplies goes kaput..maybe I'm wrong.But yes, it would make sense, but I just see it very unlikely.

author: Jon86
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 06:51:09 pm
content: It would never work, each device is probably going to require very specific properties, ripple, max current, multiple rails, things that can be screwed up by people using the wrong supplies.I guess it could be handy when things fail, but in the consumer market I doubt it's going to make the slightest bit of difference, people don't even tend to mix up their USB chargers between devices, never mind different types of supplies.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 06:56:01 pm
content: All you're doing there isaddinganother power supply, which will waste energy, take up space and be another source of reliability issues. There is no possible upside to doing this.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 06:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 28, 2013, 06:20:48 pmMost of your larger consumer equipment is still going to need a switch mode power supply to turn 13.8v into whatever it needs and there isn't much cost difference between a switch mode power supply with mains or 13.8vdc input.So mostly you would be adding more power supply not removing it and you would need multiple supplies or have to wire your house with additional 13.8v distribution.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 07:21:30 pm
content: I would rather like to see standardized power supplies for laptops. Practically all laptops have similar power requirements, yet there's still a lot of variation in voltages and connectors (and software crippling!).At work we have a whole mountain of different spare laptop power bricks, just because a brand A doesn't want to charge with a brand B brick, even when the power output is the same.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 07:39:41 pm
content: BTW my LG Flatron 17" LCD PC monitor made in 2006 has aseparate12V switched PSU. One day it will die. Then I will replace it easily.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 07:46:04 pm
content: Hey! What happened to the original "This is sad" thread?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 07:49:19 pm
content: I power most of my wall-wart stuff in the home office by the server's 80+gold ATX PSU. Had to build a few DC DC converters for the odd voltages but the overall efficiency is much higher than using all the wall-warts. About half of the wall-warts are so small and light I wouldn't dare to plug them into the power strip. And they get also quite hot for the usual 10W output. It's not hard to guess what's inside. Nothing I would run 24x7 unattended.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 07:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: don.r on December 28, 2013, 07:46:04 pm

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 08:32:03 pm
content: I've always had the idea of a 35~42V unregulated DC system for the majority of stuff in a house. That is, mains voltage comes in and everything operates off the DC bus.advantages:1) operating voltage of 18S Lead-Acid and 10S LiPo, Permits off-grid battery installations without costly re-conversion process.2) low enough voltage for minimal shock hazard (meaning isolation can be reduced or wholly eliminated)3) low enough voltage that commercial monolithic dc-dc converters are still reasonably cheap4) high enough such that current is lower than say a 12V system without being very high voltage5) you can tie 9~10 white LEDs off it with just a simple regulator or resistor, cheap lightingThat's a sort of "if I had a time machine and could go back and change it all" because it's not going to happen...

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 10:08:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 28, 2013, 08:32:03 pmHow about extending this idea with PoE for example "Linear Technology LTPoE++ (up to 90W) standard". PoE would still tick most of the boxes. It would also make each appliance network connected, internet of things. Most higher power appliances would still need normal mains to operate.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 10:12:07 pm
content: That could work but I would personally like to see up to 250W power delivery which even non standard PoE does not support -- but nothing stopping both being used...

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 10:27:58 pm
content: One way could be to use similar system that ISS hashttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_system_of_the_International_Space_Station. 124VDC system would make sense also because most switch mode power supplies at least ones with active PFC should have no problem operating with DC. For example MeanWell specs it's power supplies to operate with 88-264 Vac / 124-370 Vdc. Some diy electric car enthusiasts are using computer power supplies in their cars to make necessary 12VDC for systems, with little if any modifications.I'm not sure however if using 124VDC system would enable more reliable electronics or easier use of external replaceable power supplies. But 124VDC would enable easier backup power supply, just string enough lead acid batteries (with balancing?) together.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2013, 10:38:35 pm
content: I don't really see the advantages of running everything on low voltage DC. Stuff like LED and halogen power supplies are already extremely efficient (90 - 95% is not uncommon). Recent phone chargers consume next to nothing when the phone is disconnected. Wifi routers consume only a few watts, who really cares if the power supply is 75% efficient instead of 85%...For power hungry stuff you want high voltages to minimize the current draw. Transmission losses become quite significant with lower voltages.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 02:25:21 am
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 28, 2013, 10:38:35 pmIt makes a lot of sense when battery backup is added in and even more so when alternative energy is added in.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 01:45:11 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 28, 2013, 10:38:35 pmWould you care if it's 50% instead of 85% and if the wall-wart also has suicidal tendencies?