Migrating the forum to Discourse - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pm
content: Hello,I have had this thought for a few years. Wouldn't it make sense to migrate the forum to the Discourse platform?Yes, it's not easy. This is a big forum.There are pretty much only advantages in switching platform, it's pretty much time, but there are risks in the migration also.Pros:* finally modern mobile experience* much better readability for the forum* improved engagement with younger audiences (!!!)* way better search* Ability to easily leverage managed databases such as digitalocean's ones which I personally recommend* Lower resources consumption* faster website* improved engagement with the many tools discourse provide* ease of moderation, discourse forums are mostly self-moderating requiring only limited oversight* modern features like modern editor, better emojis, social login,* way way way easier management and upgradesRisks:* broken link during migration. new and old website could be scanned and data compared to check for broken links before migrating. The discourse importer includes generation of all redirects required in theory.* miss of custom functions?* grumpy users complaining* SEO issues - this should be ok with the redirects working.* users need to reset the password

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 05:17:47 pm
content: NO, NO and NO.All that new age stuff if unusable garbage for people that can't formulate a thought longer than a twit.You are free to create an alternative and see how many people join.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 05:23:18 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmFuck engagement. Argument for making games, forums or whatever with users into complete trash ridden with bells and whistles.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 05:36:37 pm
content: This must be a wiindup.https://www.discourse.org/about

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 05:46:30 pm
content: I see nothing in anything you mention or what I read on the Discourese website that beats "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 06:38:21 pm
content: The Buzzwords are strong with this one :pBut on a sidenote: Yes, the forum software shows it's age, and migration to some more modern software should be considered. Modern software like Xenforo can introduce a lot of new useful features without loosing it's spirit of what a forum actually represents.But other than that, why would you migrate the forum to discord, of all places?

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 06:46:40 pm
content: SMF 2.1 is right around the corner, if there should be any upgrade it should be to that solely for security fixes and minor QoL improvements.Besides that, the sole point of the forum is to be a place for people to create topics and reply to them. Best I can tell it does that just fine. If you can't do it on your phone, too bad, you can exist without the EEVBlog Forum until you get home and use something else if Tapatalk or just dealing with it isn't good enough for you.It's not broke, don't fix it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 07:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmWhy?Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmBut why?This forum works fairly well overall. Migrating the exisiting content to something else would probably be a nightmare, or next to impossible - I'm sure Dave has better things to do. And if EEVBlog's forum suddenly started afresh (with existing content lost), just for the sake of using something trendier, that would be a big loss.There is one small thing that I see could be improved (and is probably not too hard to do) is easier inclusion of images in posts. Currently if you're attaching images in a post, you have to go some extra manual steps to include them in the post itself, and not just as small thumbnails at the end.The search function could be improved, but I'm not sure this would really help a lot. I've seen people ask the same questions over and over again on almost all forums, however fancy the search function is.My (limited) experience with forums based on Discourse is not that great. I think this forum is overall a lot more readable an usable than typical Discourse forums.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 07:23:41 pm
content: I've never heard of Discourse and have no view on the matter, but many people who've responded seem to think it's shit, so it's clearly not worth the bother/risk.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 07:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmNO! If you want a better theme for mobile, just ask about that.EEVblog forum works very well as it is now.Let's not ruin it for buzzwords and glitter.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 07:30:10 pm
content: At a quick glance I see no added value, *maybe* aside from the better mobile interface, which I don't use anyway.QuoteHow does that work? I can read the forum just fine.QuoteHow does that work exactly? What's stopping younger audiences from using a standard forum?QuoteHow does self moderation work?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 07:52:07 pm
content: Hell NO. I do not want another stupid name platform.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 08:40:41 pm
content: Never change a running system. I've seen a forum (Tonmeisterforum) diecompletely because of an attempted forum software change.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 09:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on March 29, 2020, 07:30:10 pmProbably some kind of voting where the posts most convincing to the largest number of readers end up at the top and others go down or disappear. Ever been to r*ddit?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 09:28:22 pm
content: Quote from: magic on March 29, 2020, 09:21:31 pmThen it would be a shit show. And there were several cases when opinion of everyone about some technical question contradicted what I wrote. In the end after insisting several times turned out I was right. If comments moved according to likes, I guess it would end up in a shithole nobody reads.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 09:30:31 pm
content: From what I've seen, Discourse is horrible. It has gone with that "jumble of text floating in a sea of white" fad that makes it so hard for me to focus on anything. The mobile interface for this forum is horrid since the last update but at least on a proper browser it's quite good. It utilizes shading nicely to differentiate things from one another.The mobile experience here was already broken by an update, why would we want to break the rest of the forum by migrating to a new platform? It works fine, leave it alone!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 09:48:51 pm
content: I'll add another "do NOT want!" to everyone else here who already has...From link above:QuoteI've already had it with idiotic sites turning into bloated horrible web-apps that complain if your browser is evenslightlyolder than the latest, despite the fact that something 20 years ago would've been perfectly fine for the functionality. The moment this site goes in that direction is the moment I leave.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 29, 2020, 09:30:31 pmYep, every time google leads me to a discourse forum, I just close the tab. It is usually a mess that is impossible to navigate and understand. But it has likes, follows and subscribes.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on March 29, 2020, 07:30:10 pmThe readability is mainly improved by dropping the "pages" for continuous loading. In general, long threads are more readable on discourse, and can be browsed quickly by date through a cursor on the right side of the page. That alone is pretty much how it became popular.Quote from: daqq on March 29, 2020, 07:30:10 pmIn general phpbb interface reflects standards with wich newer users are not familiar anymore and consider offputting.Quote from: daqq on March 29, 2020, 07:30:10 pmIt has a structure where users progressively and automatically gain power as they gain engagement and respect from the community. Of course, the real power is in the hands of who controls the software.https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/who-has-which-moderation-powers-on-discourse/29805

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:16:50 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 29, 2020, 09:30:31 pmI agree, the default theme is shit, but a couple of tweaks to make the page largers and change the color theme and it's pretty good. Many themes are available.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pm=Starving for gaining likes and dick length competition. We have other places for this crap.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:19:37 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pmI personally hate continuous loading. It breaks orientation in space.Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pmYes, and programming in C is considered obsolete. New users want Arduino.Grow up and learn how to use forums. If you can't, do we really need you here?Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pmAnd then you get StackOverflow kind of thing where people spew garbage to get points. No thanks. Moderation by human moderators works fine.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:20:13 pm
content: QuoteThat's a massive plus! Imagine when it gets easy to embed the full-size photos in-text. Every thread will end up like Ice-T's buy/sell one where it takes forever to load a page and whilst it's doing that the bloody text is jumping up and down as the photos load (yes, the same big photos that loaded the previous time you looked at the page just a couple of hours ago).In my opinion, it's not hard enough to embed in-text

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pmSounds like "say goodbye to your RAM when you open the TEA thread"

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:22:33 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on March 29, 2020, 06:38:21 pmIt's a mature piece of software, gonna be 10yo soon. The architecture is good. It's not going to disappear next week. The UI is customizable. great community support. Ease of install and management. good performance. Written in a solid language. open source. It's considered the de-facto standard nowadays.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:24:29 pm
content: Quote from: magic on March 29, 2020, 10:21:30 pmI doubt that it's kept in RAM whole, probably only sections of it are cached. Anyway, the data under the posts is small, just some JSON, the generated HTML is heavy, but is generated dynamically as you scroll. like all apps of this decade.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:22:33 pmNo one cares. What we have right now works and has been working for a long time.Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:24:29 pm...and that's the problem, "apps of this decade" are utter crap.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on March 29, 2020, 05:46:30 pmas common logic goes - if you sit on you ass for too long it becomes stiff.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 29, 2020, 07:10:00 pmMigrating from Pphpbb to Discourse has been done hundreds of time, the scripts are well seasoned.There are many small things like that. I'd rather stop using this last century markup language written to make php happy to write posts.The default config of discourse is for "small and cute" forums, such as customer support forums. That's because that way, when you install it for the first time, it doesn't feel empty. The default config is not suitable for a forum like this one, but luckly, it's very easy to customize.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:32:17 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:24:29 pmQuote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:24:29 pmQuote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:24:29 pmExactly my pointA silly gimmick for kids upgrading to the latest hardware on a yearly schedule.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:32:31 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pmYou should include that in your lists of negatives, bold big font.Gag me with a spoon. But then I don't seek power and since I've been married I don't seek engagement..

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:26:58 pmWhat does that even mean? The wheel was invented thousands of years ago and has not really changed much since then. There have been numerous attempts to reimagine the control scheme of cars yet after more than 100 years the basic steering wheel and pedals are still largely the same. A word processor or spreadsheet from 20 years ago is still fully usable today.Just because some technology evolves rapidly doesn't mean that everything needs to keep up. If something isn't broken there's no reason to try to fix it. We could leave the forum as-is for another 20 years and it will likely just keep working, if something changes fundamentally making it no longer usable then it could be updated to something newer then, why muck with it now? Discourse is ugly, I don't see anyone else here pushing to change, I see no real gain from the move and I would bet a lot of established users would just end up leaving.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:33:05 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on March 29, 2020, 07:27:27 pmI have seen it being asked many years ago, popping up many times since there, and never ended up anywhere. I've been following the forum since it's inception a decade ago.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:33:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 29, 2020, 10:32:52 pmHow many websites from the 2000s do you use daily?

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:35:04 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 29, 2020, 10:32:31 pmWhich can be modified or disabled, as per all the features.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 29, 2020, 10:19:37 pmQuite .Stackoverflow is mostly boring garbage like "which button do I press to display a widget of a cat?".

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:36:00 pm
content: Can you show a Discourse forum configured as you see fit for this forum as an example?Absolutely all Discourse forums I've seen were utter garbage. May be if we had a good example, we would have a different opinion.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:36:18 pm
content: Absolutely not. Discourse is hot garbage that doesn't even run with JS disabled. All the new-style forums are beyond awful for any threaded discussion.Migrating to XenForo or something reasonably close to classic forums software? Sure, whatever. Migrating to Discourse or its clones? No.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 29, 2020, 10:19:18 pmEven the thanks mechanism on this forum is abused. "Woodz" seems to that every post that mentions him, even if they are implying he is an idiot.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:33:52 pmI'd use a lot more of them if they still existed, the only one that's still around ishttp://lamptech.co.uk, I don't use it daily but I still view it as one of the gold standards of web design. High information density, simple and effective layout, quality content and there is not a single bit of irritating cruft that I need to block.There are dozens of websites that I used to use but have abandoned over the years when they were revamped and went from useful and effective to a bloated unusable mess. If you want to see an example of an absolutely horrible website spend 20 minutes browsinghttp://komonews.com, that used to be my go-to for local news but I all but abandoned it after several renovations left it all but unusable. Give me the Komo news website from 2001 with up to date content and I'll switch to it in a heartbeat.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:40:35 pm
content: I can't but notice all the users complaining have thousands of posts each. You're just used to PhPbb and complaining cause you don't like the sofa to be moved near the window. This is not really a useful discussion.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:40:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 29, 2020, 10:37:42 pmI adblok-ed thanks here, so I don't have a way to thank anyone and have no idea who thanks me. I don't need "thanks" to form my own opinion of a person or a post.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:40:35 pmWell, may be leave us alone here and build your new community of noobs on Discourse? And newcomers may decide for themselves where they want to be.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 29, 2020, 10:39:21 pmYou can have it back, just have to buy newspaper again instead of being funded by ads and competing with facebook. But that's another discussion, and it's not relevant.There are reasons why the don't exist anymore. They're not readable across devices, for one. Their architecture scales horribly. Dave is paying for every line HTML you read and all the code that runs that.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:40:35 pmI can't help but notice that pandering to lazy iPhone-addicted teenagers will bring more 1 post users asking homework tier questions and drive away those who answer them.Sounds like a win

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:40:35 pmSo what you're effectively saying is "fuck the long time users who contribute heavily and make the forum what it is, we can just ignore what they want because it doesn't matter".What's stopping you from creating a new forum that is set up the way you want it and leaving this one alone? I haven't seen Dave jump in here yet but it's his joint, ultimately it's his choice what goes and what doesn't.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:48:46 pm
content: And I'm seriously curious to see Discourse forum of the scale close to this forum. We would have better things to discuss if we could actually have something for comparison.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:44:47 pmMaybe you can explain how buying a newspaper again is going to give me a usable news website? News should not be competing with facebook, social networking is a cancer that has spread throughout society, if I wanted the facebook experience I'd be on facebook but I abandoned that years ago too when it became less useful after every update.Bullshit, all manner of sites have mobile and desktop versions, this one included, though the mobile interface sucks now it was quite good on the previous version and I used it heavily.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:50:28 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 29, 2020, 10:37:42 pmYou mean can't see the "Woodz" for the ....

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:40:35 pmAnd you're just used to Discourse and complaining because this isn't it. Oh, and it's not phpBB, either.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:52:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 29, 2020, 10:46:04 pmYou lead by example, then you sidestep. Leaders who keep on hanging on their position die hated and alone.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:52:40 pm
content: QuoteROFL!QuoteIt's their way or the highway, and even if you do it their way you're basically running blind.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:54:02 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 29, 2020, 07:10:00 pmThiswasimproved not too long ago. Unfortunately, the plugins (or possibly the combination of them together; they were never tested separately) used to do this are buggy, and have IMHO made it much worse overall.Quote from: james_s on March 29, 2020, 09:30:31 pmThis x1000. Like, designers, wake up! Visible structure and navigation is agoodthing! It's not just useless clutter. (Something which cannot be said for all the social media "engagement" BS.)Quote from: ataradov on March 29, 2020, 10:19:37 pmI agree a million times over. I HATE continuous loading in nearly all situations. Not only does it break orientation as you say, but if you dare click away, a "back" is almost guaranteed to not take you back where you were.IMHO, SMF is not a particularlygreatforum platform. But moving from one crappy product to another crappy product is hardly the answer. If EEVblog did consider moving (which is something I wouldn't really recommend at this point, given that a new version of SMF is supposedly around the corner), it'd be to a better commercial product, not to an open source project. (Open source, frankly, just sucks in some ways, and forum and content management systems are one area where they simply don't work well. In this domain, the core projects tend to be barebones, relying on plugins for essential features, but the plugins in turn easily break with updates, or collide with each other, or get abandoned and stop working altogether.)Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:40:35 pmWoooow. What an arrogant attitude. And you don't even have the basics right, since EEVblog doesn't run on PHPbb. (As I allude to above, I don't like PHPbb, but this is different software!)Successful forums rely on long-term members. Their input matters. I have seen a software changecompletely destroyan online community that had tens of thousands of users. It is NOT a change to be made lightly, especially not in a mature community like this one.So for you to dismiss these very real concerns as "moving the sofa"? Vafanculo, dude.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:55:18 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:52:02 pmWhat this has to do with technical merits of this discussion?If everyone starts to hate classic forums, then they'll naturally move to something else. There does not seem to be the problem at the moment. Only benefits really. All homework kids go to stackoverflow.Again, give us examples of big technical forums on Discourse. I personally don't actually think it will scale that well. I would love to be proven wrong.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 10:59:58 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:44:47 pmQue? You are losing the plot!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:00:35 pm
content: Quote from: magic on March 29, 2020, 10:45:41 pmExactly!

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:00:49 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 29, 2020, 10:55:18 pmhttps://www.wappalyzer.com/technologies/discourseElastic is one of the most important IT companies in the world, i've worked extensively with their stackhttps://discuss.elastic.co/Vue is one of the most popular UI frameworks.https://forum.vuejs.org/Ionic one of the most popular frameworks for mobile apps. I've worked with it.https://forum.ionicframework.com/https://community.cloudflare.com/Do i need to talk about cloudflare? they basically run the internet.Docker is the most important modern technology used in IT.https://forums.docker.com/Docker community is orders of magnitudes bigger than EEVblog

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:01:45 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on March 29, 2020, 10:50:28 pmYou might think that. I could not possibly comment.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:02:27 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 29, 2020, 10:52:40 pmI work mostly in software and one thing that really stands out over the years is how much more unnecessarily complex things have gotten, and the worst part of it is that it's almost all self-inflicted: all the younger ones are drawn in by the marketing wank and don't take the time to understand and think about things, they just slap a bunch of bloated libraries together.Docker is basically "we've made our software so complex that we can't figure out how you are supposed to install it, so how about we just give you this nicely-wrapped ball of shit instead."I just noticed the OP is from Italy... maybe the stress of the quarantine is getting to him.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:03:53 pm
content: I just looked at all of those and every one of them has that hideous sea of white that makes it almost unusable to me. I can't speak for everyone but if I didn't abandon it entirely I would spend vastly less time here if it moved to that platform.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:04:14 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 11:00:49 pmHuh? Their biggest sub-forum (General Discussions) has 156 topics per month. Most have 0 replies. It looks pretty empty to me.The community may be bigger, but the forum is most definitely not.Yeah, that thing is pretty much dead.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:05:44 pm
content: It should not be overlooked Dave is always looking at and installed updates to how this forum works and in my time here it has changed massively for the better. Dave's also looked hard at other forum platforms and while some have features he'd like to have here there are too many negatives to want him move away from SMF at this time.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:06:21 pm
content: Do you see any actual discussion in any of these Discourse forums? It all looks like tech support questions to me.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:07:58 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on March 29, 2020, 11:06:21 pmExactly. All of those things are 1-2 answer tech support. No actual discussion.Also, for whatever reason they compress themselves into a narrow column in the middle of the screen. And then noting fits and you need infinite scrolling.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:08:04 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 29, 2020, 11:02:27 pmWell, while I think libraries are critical (and they're nothing new in any way), what does perplex me is how the current design trend seems to be utterly oblivious to usability, despite throwing around the right buzzwords (UX! Usability! UCD! Journeys! Personas!). It's even more baffling that as usability has become an established field, with more and more universities offering it as a major, the actual real-world usability seems to have plummeted in the past 10 years or so, after decades of slow but steady improvement. Like… what are they studying?!? They clearly haven't learned about affordances, discoverability, UI stability (as in "things don't move around and appear and disappear", not crash-proofing), etc.And this is one reason (albeit not the main one) that I turned my back on the UX industry, and will be starting training as an electronics technician in the fall.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:08:40 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 11:00:49 pmElastic and Cloudflare are on similar scale (for activity, at least, not quite so much content yet). The rest are all tiny.Your magical wappalyzer is causing you to conflate views from search engines with actual users.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 29, 2020, 11:08:40 pmElastic has a lot of new topics, but most seem to have 0 replies. This probably correlates with the popularity of the product. They all look like drive-by posting. The same person will never return back.And the only people that seem to respond are actual employees, so it is again a just a support forum.I would really like to see a generic community-run forum. Not a forum for a product.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 29, 2020, 11:13:02 pmPerhaps so, I only skimmed the stats.Interestingly he neglected to mention one site from his magical wappalyzer which is actually an active community:https://community.home-assistant.io/At over a thousand posts a day across the last 30 days, it's genuinely quite active. A lot of it is support requests (then again, what are electronics questions?), but it's a fairly active project with a lot happening.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:15:04 pm
content: QuoteAre there anythreadedforums? IMO that's one thing that would massively improve a web forum, but it would have to be the default view to make everyone use it. The ones I've seen on the web have universally been rubbish, even very good ones using an OLR are rubbish when they hit the web.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 29, 2020, 11:02:27 pmAnd now suddenly changed to UK!

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 29, 2020, 11:02:27 pmLibraries are fine. IMO the reason why Docker is needed is that Linux deployment is absolutely awful.Let me give you an example. I'm working on a VR window manager for Linux, as a future improvement over multi-monitor setups. Getting it into something users can install easily across all platforms was a nightmare due to version incompatibilites. We ended up using Nix to create a defined environment, but even that was not without issues. (Docker doesn't work since it's a graphical app)For comparison, Windows is much more backwards compatible and you can ship local versions of the required libraries without conflicts.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:20:39 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on March 29, 2020, 11:17:49 pmLinux deployment is just fine if you document your requirements and design your application for packaging by the distribution. You are not meant to take responsibility for the packaging and the security mangling of the entire platform as the developer of a single application.Shipping local versions of libraries is how you ship your customers security vulnerabilities free of charge.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:21:44 pm
content: Discourse forums are horribly slow on my laptop, this style of static forum is much faster and easier. The addition of the 'all pages' button has made my day, letting me open a lot of topics and read on the train.An old forum is a good forum -- that means it's past the bathtub curveAny problems that this forum's software may have are eclipsed by the problems a new forum engine will bring. New website engines are like new cars.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:30:10 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pmfuck continous loading.You want all pages at once? there's the "All button"Quotesounds like reddit or stackexchange. it works soooooooo wellfuck that.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 29, 2020, 11:20:39 pmSure, that works when you're working with a mostly stabilized ecosystem, not when you're on the bleeding edge of software. When Ubuntu 18.04 ships an outdated, unsupportable version of a library and Ubuntu 19.10 breaks a critically required application it gets virtually impossible to get end users past the installation stage.Also, end/desktop users are a lot less patient when it comes to installing things compared to power users setting up a server.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmPlease no.Discourse looks terrible. Too much white space. Default fonts too big. Graphics too big. Everything is too big. Terrible teletubbies look.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:40:23 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmI hate discourse, it's garbage, and doesn't seem at all suited to long term community forum type discussion. It's more of a chat platform from what I gather.So it's not going to happen, not point even discussing it, it would destroy this forum community.If this forum is going to move to something it will be a better and more familiar bbs style forum, like Zenforo

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 29, 2020, 05:17:47 pmFrom my limited experience that's what I've seen, it's just quick zero-thought chat type content.On bbs style forum's like this people put a lot more thought and effort into a good post. Some posts are so good and technically detailed they become direct go-to pages in the internet.Discourse is such a terrible idea it's not funny.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on March 29, 2020, 06:38:21 pmYes, SMF is showing its age, and I am a member on another forum that moved over the Xenforo (from I think phpBB) and Ireallylike it. There were hardly any complaints from users too.So I would be certainly open to moving to that, but it's got to be done right and professionally, not something that can be half arsed. I'd have to pay a professional to manage the move.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 29, 2020, 07:10:00 pmThis is one thing I love about Zenforo, you just CTRL-V paste the image inline in the post, it's awesome.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:53:16 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:22:33 pmAnd it's shit to use and completely unsuitable for replacing an existing bbs style community forum.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2020, 11:45:24 pmReally. So many of us have put a lot of content here - repair threads and pics to go with those threads. So many tips that are not found in very many places out there. It would be a tragedy if something went wrong. I know you understand that!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:56:29 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:33:05 pmA few people have asked for an EEVblog Discord, and there is actually one. But one has ever asked to replace this forum with discord until your post, because most people realise what a dumb idea that would be.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on March 29, 2020, 11:54:39 pmIf you manage it right, it's impossible to lose the existing forum.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2020, 11:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2020, 11:56:29 pmWait wait wait, when did Discord come into things? Discourse and Discord aren't the same thing.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:02:16 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 29, 2020, 11:16:22 pmI now live in the UK, my company moved with me as well.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:06:36 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 29, 2020, 11:13:52 pmInteresting

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:08:41 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 29, 2020, 11:59:45 pmOops, my mistake!Ah, discourse, right.It's still meh. And again, completely different from a bbs style forum. You don't go changing a 10 year established bbs style forum to discourse, that's just dumb.I believe Chris Gammell uses it for his kicad forum:https://forum.kicad.info/

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:13:37 am
content: My 2 cents is HELL no. The reason I come here and enjoy my time here is because this is a FORUM and not social media style bullcrap where visibility of any topic is a popularity contest (that of course is easily gamed by bots) that has infected practically everything else. If this place goes that way, I'm gone.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:15:03 am
content: I used to be on a mailing list which has moved to Discourse. Traffic on the mailing list wasn't high but now it seems there is no traffic at all (assuming I still receive summaries if people post something).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:28:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2020, 11:45:24 pmCompletely agree, it's money well spent. Yeeeeeeaaaaars ago (like 1999 or 2000), a forum I was then a moderator on (later user-side admin) moved from uBB to vBulletin (so also from one commercial product to another), and IIRC, having support from the vBulletin folks was invaluable. Over the years (that forum is still on vBulletin), having the support contract with the developer was well worth it, as they helped our web dev to implement a handful of custom things. (That being a Mac forum, back in the days when it was mostly graphic designers and other creatives using Macs, everyone involved had quite high expectations, both visually and usability-wise, and frankly, they did a great job of it — it looked way ahead of its time, and still looks good today. But on occasion it required some tweaks to the software to get it to really work just right. Our custom, professionally-designed forum skin and the custom software hooks served it well. The forum is still around, with over twice as many registered users and over twice as many posts as EEVblog right now, but it's absolutely moribund. From the looks of it, subforums that used to get maybe 5-10 new threads per day 15 years ago now have that many in aquarter.At least it's still around as an archive...)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:28:59 am
content: I don't know how anyone can tolerate the sea of whitespace thing, I know I have sensitive eyes but it causes me physical discomfort to look at, it's like staring into a spotlight trying to read some text printed on the lens. I can turn down the brightness but then the contrast goes away. There is no shading separating different areas causing everything to blend together. This forum is not without flaws but at least the desktop version is nicely readable. It has good information density, it uses shading to good effect indicating clearly where active text entry boxes are, and while the background behind the text is still bright white at least the gray around it provides some contrast and mutes the overall brightness.This same trend is the first thing I noticed about Win10 when my former employer moved over to it, everything was a just floating in a jumble on a sea of bright white, suddenly it was no longer obvious what was a clickable control, text entry box or background object. Decades of UI design and refinement thrown out overnight in the quest of being trendy and fashionable. Visual cues were used everywhere because they make the software easier to use. Shading and separators break things up and organize them the same way you probably arrange your tools in a toolbox and categorize small parts in some sort of bins instead of just dumping everything out spread across your workbench.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:34:10 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 30, 2020, 12:28:16 amI once actively used a handful of quite popular Yahoo groups starting in the early 2000's and was a moderator on one of them. These were thriving communities used by hundreds of people and then one day a while back, (maybe 10 years ago?) Yahoo redesigned it all and almost overnight the whole thing crashed and burned. It became so unusable that most of the users abandoned it right away, the internet filled with hoards of people complaining about the new design but Yahoo was unwavering. Usage continued to collapse and all the groups I was on became ghost towns. Finally more recently I read that the struggling Yahoo was closing down groups altogether, at that point it no longer mattered.Some companies seem to have a motto of "If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is."

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:47:13 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2020, 12:28:59 amThere were rumours that the MS UI design team was drawing the new UIs in powerpoint and then sending these off to the programmers.What's the value in decades of human interface experience when you could be shiny? TheLaw of Least Astonishmentis now about avoiding users going "eww, that's old-looking" rather than "wtf is this app doing why can't I even". The former is now considered worse than the latter, everything is about appearance and marketing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:48:43 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2020, 12:34:10 amYes, it's gone completely, erased from existenceI spent more than a decade as the top poster on the OzCanyons Yahoo group before someone set up a Facebook group and it slowly died. Now the entire thing is gone, forgotten to history.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:50:59 am
content: The flat UI trend is easy to explain. Graphics cards can draw filled rectangles really fast. So it is easy if UI is just flat rectangles.Doing 3D control elements is also hard on 4K and 8K monitors, since your elements need to scale appropriately now. And again, filled rectangles scale easily.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 12:51:40 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmSimple answer:NO

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 01:21:11 am
content: I saw the original post (at ~1am here) and my first reaction was "No" - but I thought it best to sleep on it.The subsequent responses have covered many points of concern I had - whitespace, continuous loading, drive by posts and so on. I am consistently bewildered by the claims of "improved usability" where it is just buzzwords dropped around something new which doesn't actually make things better. It's just "new". (BTW ... age, in itself, is NOT a reason to discard anything - IMHO).There is, however, one aspect I have not seen mentioned - and that is one of discipline.It does take a (tiny) bit of effort navigating here and that may require some measure of thought - to understand how to package what you want to say in a post. As has been said above, there is a lot of well thought out material here. What would be absolutely crippling to the value offered here is to make the platform so "engaging" that a flood of useless crap washes in, burying the gems.So, I would suggest that if people really want to engage with those who have an extremely diverse range of skill and experience, then develop the discipline to learn how to do that in the framework that currently exists ... and works. If someone does not want to go to the "trouble" of working within an established environment, then I don't think I want to go to the trouble of pandering to their displeasure in having to learn.I say this not as a put down to change, since adapting is one of the key characteristics of success - but that so much engineering is built from old, boring basics and putting yourself out to understand these through the simple application of oneself will serve you well.In short, if you can't find the discipline to work within the current framework, then maybe you should avoid engineering pursuits.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 01:24:28 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2020, 12:50:59 amGraphics cards can create textured 3D shapes easily now too so that's not really an issue. Also there is a very wide space between the super flat whitewashed thing that was all the rage a few years ago and Vista-style 3D everything. Even subtle visual cues like raised buttons, shadows and shading can make something far more usable. A raised button with a shadow is no harder to scale than a link that is just text on a white background. These are not insurmountable technical hurdles, I expect software to get better and more refined with time, not worse.Also the scaling thing is a non-issue anyway. I have a high resolution monitor because I want to display a lot of things on it at once. If the UI simply scales to make everything bigger then it negates most of the reason of having a high resolution display in the first place. A 4k display ought to be plenty to tile a PCB layout, one or more datasheets and a BOM for example all visible at once. About the only time I ever maximize one program to fill the whole screen is if I'm using my computer to watch TV/movies. Otherwise I typically use about 1/4-1/2 of the display area per active window depending on what I'm doing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 03:00:28 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on March 30, 2020, 01:21:11 amWould be interesting to compare the average post length (number of words) here vs the best example of a similar technical Discourse forum.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 03:06:33 am
content: This tells you a lot:https://www.discourse.org/aboutQuoteIt's been "reimagined" for the Twitter and Facebook generation. Not exactly a trend I'd want to follow.And the main site blurb:QuoteJack of all trades and master of none comes to mind.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 03:07:58 am
content: And I agree with others, the continued constantly loading endless scrolling page thing is a ridiculous idea for long threads.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 03:49:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2020, 11:40:23 pmTime to lock the thread ?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 03:49:24 am
content: I looked at some XenForo examples including their site itself, and was a little turned disappointed when they all complained about no JS and had an advert for Google'sspywarebrowser.QuoteMaybe it's just the style they use, but in contrast this site works perfectly fine without JS, and I've even used it from one of my 25-year-old Thinkpads. :+1:I think vBulletin is pretty nice; look athttps://www.badcaps.net/forumfor an example.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 03:53:14 am
content: That's definitely a negative. I block javascript by default and only allow it on a rare few sites. It does not seem like something necessary for a forum.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 05:14:06 am
content: From my experience XenForo runs fine without JS. It complains, and some features go directly to the HTML fallback, but everything works.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 06:11:33 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmWhen you first posted this I didn't think you would get anyone as it was so obvious. OK, so congrats you got a few to fall for your silly prank.I'd really rather you didn't spam up the forum like this though. This place is really a great resource, and this sort of silliness has the potential to drive people away.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 06:47:21 am
content: Quote1) How is ignoring the advice and requests from people who contribute the most to the forum a good idea? I'm OK with moving the sofa near the window, provided there is a point and it improves the room. Change for the sake of change is foolish.2) I can't help but notice that all of the users who actually want the change are you and no one else.Also, I have looked at a few discourse forums, the selfloading monstrosities. Please show me a thread comparable in size to this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/in discourse. How well would it scale? When I want to see something on page 562, what do I have to do?It seems to me that Discourse is great for support 'forums' where someone asks "How do I do X?", there are two replies and that's it. Now for actual discussion and advancement of the problem.As to the self moderation you explained, WTF? Moderators effectively get to be chosen by popularity contests? Can I be a moderator?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 07:13:52 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 29, 2020, 11:08:04 pmThey are learning about AB testing, moving fast and breaking things, eyeball retention, ad impressions, all the usual stuffQuote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2020, 11:42:33 pmAnd this is possible because the forum is a bunch of dynamically generated HTML pages one can link to. Linking to individual content in those user-side-rendered javascript monstrosities is typically either impossible or results in a myriad dumb problems because developers of that junk can't get navigation right. And half of users who browse without JS wouldn't even bother going there.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 07:14:34 am
content: Quote from: magic on March 29, 2020, 09:21:31 pmSo, ironically, if this post were on a Discourse forum, it would have been downvoted, therefore the Discourse transition would have never happened...

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 07:18:12 am
content: You probably also believe in democracy, don't you?No transition is happening because Dave thinks it's dumb. And I kinda expected similar reaction from him so I just came here to flame on discourse and "the modern web" for fun

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 07:37:06 am
content: ANY type of continuously loading web is simply crap.It is going against all normal navigation, orientation, linking etc.Whoever invented it should be criminally prosecuted..Everybody hates it. My wife hates how in Pinterest you cannot get back to where you were before..NOBODY likes it.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 08:51:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 30, 2020, 03:07:58 amYes. With this feature you'll kill instantly the TEA thread which would be a real shame. Imho.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 09:51:31 am
content: Quote from: magic on March 30, 2020, 07:13:52 amI do like how the URL tells you what the thread is, e.g.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/migrating-the-forum-to-discourse/At least Discourse does seem to have that though:https://forum.kicad.info/t/3d-model-visibility-through-hole-smd-virtual/21998

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 09:59:08 am
content: Thanks OP for teaching me the name ofthat forum softwareI've seen on a few sites.It has a design feature that I've never been able to understand: it only loads a handful of comments at a time, and you have to scroll to load more. This would seem to break archiving (Wayback Machine or just saving to a file), search (the forum hijacks Ctrl+F to try to make up for it), and otherRESTfulfunctions.I'm afraid I don't have the > 180 IQ required to comprehend the benefits is of such a design. Could you please explain?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:00:56 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on March 30, 2020, 09:59:08 amFTFY

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:56:33 am
content: QuoteNot 100% sure but I would imagine it's to prevent, say, 2000-odd messages loading before you get to see the one you want. I previously referred to Ice-T's score thread - I had to turn off notifications for that because it was just too painful loading up when a page was over half full (and that's with this forum's limited message count in a page). It would probably kill not just my PC but my entire network and the local neighbourhood broadband if I clicked the 'all messages' buttonAnyway, on Disco that wouldn't be a problem because you'd only load what you're actually looking at, yet still be able to instantly navigate anywhere in the thread by a drag of the navigation bar.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 04:35:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2020, 12:28:59 amSame, so I like that backgrounds in this forum are not plain white.From my experience, Discourse-based forums also show a lot fewer threads at once, it's annoying as hell when you're browsing topics.Anyway, I don't see the point. Xenforo looks like a much better alternative, so if Dave decides to switch (and as he said, he'll need help anyway), I'm ok with this one.Meanwhile, the current solution works. Software just doesn't rust. If it works properly, is stable and can run on any modern hosting service, why change it?

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 04:59:30 pm
content: I'd never heard of, or seen, Discourse until this thread.So I went to their About page and stopped reading as soon as I saw this in their list of "features":Quote

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 05:24:32 pm
content: One example of a Discourse-based forum, so people can get an idea:https://forum.kicad.info/

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 06:23:34 pm
content: I am going to copyright the words "Disagree, Distrust and Disinform" to prevent idiots from using them for another stupid name forums.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 07:45:20 pm
content: The OpenWRrt forum is another example:https://forum.openwrt.org/I did contribute a bit to the old forum, but since they changed to Discourse I've hardly posted anything.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 29, 2020, 11:02:27 pmI work in embedded software and even that world, with its often severe hardware constraints, is heading towards more and more complexity with needless layers upon layers of libraries, abstraction layers, and other crap. Some of the tools that try to manage that crap, like ST's STM32CubeIDE and NXP's MCUXpresso are huge, bloated, and incredibly slow to the point where I don't see how anyone can use them efficiently. Kids just coming into the industry from school haven't a clue how to develop for a machine with less than a few gigabytes of memory and a 4 GHz CPU.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 10:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 30, 2020, 04:35:48 pmI don't understand all the favorable mentions of Xenforo. It doesn't seem to be any better than Discourse or any number of other Facebook wannabees.Another forum I'm on justswitched to Xenforofor no reason that was apparent to anyone outside the forum's management. I'd say user engagement has dropped at least by 50%, probably more. The sponsors arepissed.If it's not broke, don't "fix" it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:01:02 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2020, 12:50:59 amI don't mean to be rude, but that is the most ludicrous, patently absurd thing I've read all week.Our computers20 years agocould handle complex, layered, shaded UIs with real alpha transparency, without a problem. Our GPUs today are hundreds of times more powerful, and have 20 times the VRAM. Scaling up a UI to 2x (i.e. 4x as many pixels) is peanuts to them.You're talking as though this is some novel challenge, when in fact it's one we facedand solveddecades ago. (I'm not exaggerating when I say 20 years: it was in early 2000 that Apple first released Mac OS X's Aqua interface, with its gratuitous alpha transparency and image transforms. It ran them surprisingly well in software (!), but they really came to life on machines that could do it in hardware, which was pretty much all machines released from that point on.)If you encounter speed problems with high-dpi UIs, that is strictly a software implementation failure. But well-built GUIs have absolutely zero problem with this.Remember, we now use GPUs capable of drawing millions of triangles per second, with complex math applied to them. You forget that that hardware is available to 2D applications as well, since 2D is merely a subset of 3D where the Z-axis is zero.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 30, 2020, 11:01:02 pmIt is not about performance. It is about UI element design that scales well and does not get blurry.Old Win95 style 3D buttons had 3 pixel border that created 3D effect. You can't see pixels anymore, so all those UI elements need to be designed to be adaptable to the display resolution. This is not an unsolvable issue, but turning everything into simple primitives automatically solved the issue.I'm not saying that I like or happy about it, but it is what it is.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on March 30, 2020, 12:47:13 amI'm 100% sure they did that, because until just a few years ago, it was an extremely common way of doing low-fi prototypes. It's really only in the past 5-10 years that halfway decent UI prototyping software has come out and taken hold in the UX world. (Though IMHO, calling it "halfway decent" is being extremely generous. From a usability standpoint, those UI prototyping systems areatrocious. Oh, the irony…)But everyone understood that the PPT mockups were not intended to be pixel-perfect final art, but just symbolic representations.Me, when I was working in UX, I liked to work on pencil and paper as long as I could. That way, there was never any confusion about "but I don't like the color of that button" and such nonsense.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2020, 11:17:05 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2020, 11:05:10 pmSorry, you can't claim you weren't talking about performance, since your post opened with "The flat UI trend is easy to explain.Graphics cards can draw filled rectangles really fast." That is unambiguously a statement about performance, and as such, it's just plain wrong. Graphics performance hasnothingto do with the flat trend.Quote from: ataradov on March 30, 2020, 11:05:10 pmAgain, a problem that was solved long ago, albeit not as long ago as the performance side.Apple and Microsoft both had solved that problem long ago. In the case of Windows, however, it took lots of apps a long time to unblur, because the apps were still using antiquated graphics APIs that were pixel-based, so the app was actually rendered at low res and then scaled up. That, however, has fuck-all to do with design choices, since even simple rectangles and plain text were blurry in such apps.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 12:31:57 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 30, 2020, 11:07:17 pm"What's that, 2H?"Gah, you're giving me anxiety thinking about itShowing off website prototypes is always easier if you keep the colour scheme of the old website.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:22:32 am
content: I will say that I like what Rennlist does. They maintain the familiar look and feel of traditional BBS-style forums like this one, but if you keep scrolling up or down when you reach the top or bottom of a "page" of posts, it expands the page in that direction.This is a convenient and relatively harmless affordance that lessens the need for the 'All' button. It does waste bandwidth to some extent, since it's easy to find yourself dumped into the middle of a thread full of large image attachments that you've already seen but that still have to be fetched from the server for whatever reason. The 'End' key doesn't always take you to the real end of the thread, but rather to the end of the content you've already cached.If they'd make the End key work properly and keep the page # control for those who prefer navigating that way, it would be more or less perfect. Can't tell what forum software they use but it would be a good fit for EEVBlog if you (Dave) ever do get the itch to change.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:50:12 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on March 31, 2020, 02:22:32 amWhat we have now is arguably better in that you can access a thread in whatever board it's in and go to a page #, New, Home or End.I used to think SMF was the pits but another forum I'm on changed to Xenforo quite painlessly and it's really little if any better than what we have here however that wouldn't be so if Dave hadn't done the many forum mods he has over the last few years.Strongly support staying as we are.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:53:29 am
content: Quote from: amyk on March 29, 2020, 11:02:27 pmWorst .... ->HEREQuote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:55:12 pm

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:05:32 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:24:29 pmI prefer the model where the whole page is loaded... while I'm reading the top part of the page, the rest of it finishes loading below. Load-on-scroll forces the user to wait, and wait, and wait...

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:21:09 am
content: Oh God No. No no no no.Steve

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:34:28 am
content: I also loathe those pages that just keep loading as you're scrolling, I didn't know the name for it but it has driven me nuts every time I've encountered it. You can't tell how much further you have to go, it just keeps loading more and more. Then of course the issue someone already mentioned about the difficulty in getting back where you were after reloading the page.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:52:04 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 31, 2020, 04:05:32 amNot to mention you cannot use browser search (because some of the page is not loaded) and most of them have problems with select/copy..

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 10:45:44 am
content: KIS and DFIIIABroke definately applies here !!!

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 12:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmSurely this was either an attempt at trolling or a very early April fools' joke?I suppose the timezone is quite different on whatever planet you're on!

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:19:46 pm
content: 10 Print "No!"20 Goto 10RUNFor the love of everything actually USABLE - NO. These new "social media style" platforms are nothing but junk. I can't stand the stuff. This forum, in particular, works VERY well. The software is great (hopefully not because of hundreds of hours per week of behind the scenes work by the admins) and checks all the boxes. In my other hobbies, the one I use most often is so far out of date it isn't funny - their message editor for example blocks the spell check that is in every modern browser, and it is severely lacking a great feature here - the notification that someone else has replied to the thread while you were typing yours. The other one, which I gave up (spending too much times on forums, not enough time actually DOING things), is in the more modern 'discussion' format and I absolutely hate itI just want some place, like this, that just keeps on using what works, and doesn't change completely in format because "all the cool kids are doing it". Change for the sake of change is NOT improvement. The experience of setting up a new postage meter at work proved that. The old one was simple and easy to use, probably some micro in there, interfacing the scale and printing mechanism with a multi line LCD character display that displayed the pertinent information and basic prompts. Worked well, even the most tech illiterate people in the office could use it - and being an IT consulting company, it's amazing how many tech illiterate people actually work there. New one - this is no longer good enough (despite a practical monopoly - so it's not like competition forced their hand - the new one has a full color graphical LCD and runs Android. And is insanely complicated to do the simple task of weighing an envelope and printing the correct postage on it based on the entered destination.So no, we do not need this form changed to another platform just because it's the 'trend'. It needs to stay right how it is, it is perfectly usable.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:38:56 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on March 31, 2020, 03:19:46 pmPrecisely, for all the reasons you mention.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 11:05:28 pm
content: Note that this is your actual complaint:Quote from: james_s on March 31, 2020, 05:34:28 am... not this:QuoteI don't understand why the bad part of this feature always seems to accompany the good part. Why can't we have both types of navigation? It feels clunky and archaic to scroll to the top of the page and hit a wall for no reason, where I'm forced to move the mouse and keep clicking on the same (separate) control to continue reading in that direction.The infinite-scrolling model doesn'thaveto suck. It just happens to do so, in all of its current incarnations.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 12:26:57 pm
content: Why are people still discussing it? Dave has already said no so it is not going to happenI think you'll just have to agree to disagree and some people like it and some people don't, either way EEVBlog is not going to be moving.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 01:24:24 pm
content: Isn’t that like throwing away a bunch of advertising income?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 01:44:37 pm
content: QuoteBecause people are still interested in either what it's about or having an opinion? I've learnt a few things from this thread, unrelated to what Dave may or may not do, which I probably wouldn't have if everything you're not personally interested in got banned.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 02:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on March 31, 2020, 11:05:28 pmIf a big enough buffer is loaded at a time - one that corresponds to a whole normal page, for example - it shouldn't suck more than having separate pages, I guess.The load-on-scroll should work in the background, so it always loads +/- one "page" from where the browser window is currently displaying.In other words, the user shouldn't have to scroll all the way down to the bottom (or all the way to the top) before loading the next segment... this should be "anticipated" by the software long before it happens.If it was done this way, it might be nicer than separate pages.Search is still a challenge.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 03:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 01, 2020, 02:13:40 pmSorry - but, no. A thousand times no.

author: hli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 03:40:23 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on March 30, 2020, 06:47:21 amThe home-assistant forum has some larger threads. I did not look too deep, but there are some with 3k+ posts (not as big as the TEA thread, but still):https://community.home-assistant.io/t/echo-devices-alexa-as-media-player-testers-needed/58639What you can see:no threadingvery rare use of quotingyou don't browse by page, but instead by date (on the right side)one can link to individual postsSeems to work quite well (and scrolling to a certain date in the time-line is quite fast), but I find it quite unreadable (I have a 27'' screen, just use it). Too much whiete, to less distinction between the posts.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 03:53:17 pm
content: Quote from: hli on April 01, 2020, 03:40:23 pmIf it doesn't have easy multi-level quoting, then the context of a conversationwillbe lost. That means the only conversations will be very simple, therefore veryboringand relativelyuninteresting. All that is left is single-line questions and answers like "which button do I press to squirdle the gammeticon?". Examples: stackexchange, edaboard. Yuck.In contrast multi-level quoting allows and encouragessubtleconversations including discussion of "why", "why not", "in what circumstances".

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 03:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 01, 2020, 03:03:03 pmIt would be like auto-loading the next page as well as the one you're viewing. It could be an advantage when you read sequentially.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 04:26:24 pm
content: QuoteNot if it has a properly threaded display. Quotes are a bandaid because there is no threading. A typical web forum is pants in this context, and conversations here are rubbish. By contrast, with a threaded display a quote is pretty rare and only used to isolate a particular part of the post being commented on.Here, a topic with 1000 posts is a huge beast, worthy of comment and boasting. On a threaded forum it would be nothing, yet every post would be relatable to the one it is a comment to and quoting wouldn't be needed.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 04:30:35 pm
content: I hate this auto-loading thing with a passion. Holy crap.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 04:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 01, 2020, 04:26:24 pmIreallylike threaded displays, and use themextensivelywhen reading my mail and usenet feeds. Their allow different sub-threads to be kept separate.But even within a distinct sub-thread it is necessary to include the context of that sub-thread.Hence threading and quoting have different purposes; one is not a substitue for the other. Both are beneficial

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 05:01:49 pm
content: Threading fanboys rejoice, rumor has it that the forum is moving to Reddithttps://www.reddit.com/r/EEVblog/

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 06:45:08 pm
content: Eeek!

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 07:53:31 pm
content: Don't worry. It's All Fool's Day.

author: Back2Volts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 08:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:40:35 pmHere. I do not have thousands of posts! I'LL SAY, NOT ONLY NO!!! BUT NO!!! HELL NO!!!

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 11:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: Back2Volts on April 01, 2020, 08:27:03 pmI'm with Back2Volts on this onemoving the sofa near the window will get it exposed to the sun and fade and crack sooner,or if it's a big dollar leather job, some thieving wankers will force open the windowand toss it in their van while you're busy in the dunnyand no, I'm not putting up bars or (more) outside camerasor blow money on window tinting, just to move the sofa/couchand who knows what's gathered and lived/died under there over the years, no thanks!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 04:16:01 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 01, 2020, 04:26:24 pmI've never liked threaded displays, it turns the a topic into a maze of little subtopics, it's one of the reasons I don't use reddit unless I happen to end up there from a search for something.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 06:25:39 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 02, 2020, 04:16:01 amOr it becomes close to linear because everybody rushes to attach his post to the currently most-upvoted thread for visibility

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 08:26:06 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 02, 2020, 04:16:01 amI agree about reddit, but there are alternative displays that I prefer. I also like to be able to flick between linear and threaded with one click.For example, here's a usenet topic started by Win Hill of AoE fame. It shows both threading and multilevel quoting, why they are orthogonal and both valuable

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 11:58:39 am
content: Threading creates trees, but human communication is linear.The result is that message threading encourages bifurcation from the original topic, whereas a linear/paged message listing only encourages divergence from the original topic. In both cases, quoting has an orthogonal purpose, and can even be used to collect various posts back to the original topic.In an ongoing discussion threading is extremely useful, exactly because of the bifurcation: each sub-discussion can concentrate on the details, and the communication is not restricted to a linear format. However, reading those afterwards is slow, as it can be difficult to reconstruct the complete flow; you often have to read the entire related discussion linearly in posted order, to understand it all.Thus, in my opinion, threading works best for email, and linear message listing (in posting order) for discussions read afterwards.I personally avoid Discourse; it does not seem to work well the way I use my browser. Granted, I particularly dislike web sites that insist on using async Javascript to load content, because I want the page to actually show the contents I want when I load it, and not sometime later on. I don't mind if the images take some time to load, as long as the text is there from the get go.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 12:27:12 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 30, 2020, 03:49:24 amI can vouch for vBulletin being a great platform. For many years, I was a (user, not server) admin on what was at the time the biggest Mac forum outside of Apple’s own. (As of today, despite it being a graveyard these days, with very little activity over the past decade, that forum has over twice as many total posts as the eevblog forums, and three times as many registered users, just to give some scale). We ran it with a totally custom skin we commissioned, with various custom mods. Feature wise, it’s a bit dated now, but the skin still looks great, far better than any default skin I’ve ever seen on any forum software. The forum skin was introduced in 2007, for context. If anyone cares, it’s still up, athttp://forums.macnn.com, years after the MacNN news site shut down.)I wasn’t a server admin, but my understanding is that the vBulletin company was very helpful in implementing the custom stuff, and with any server issues that came up. For sure, I can vouch for it being eminently capable of running a forum of this scale, both in terms of scalability and features. (PhpBB, for example, is far, far, far too feature-poor for larger communities.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 03:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 02, 2020, 11:58:39 amIt need not be slow, if multilevel quotes are used. Having the tree explicitly visible is a great help as well, as it visually separates subthreads.It is all old technology known to the greybeards back in the mid 80s. Youngsters forget history.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 04:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 02, 2020, 03:34:00 pmI meant that the nature of following a bifurcating discussion afterwards is hard, because of the bifurcation itself. If you examine each discussion from the root (or initially quoted message) to each leaf message, you end up going back to the bifurcation-causing messages, and the overall timeline across all sub-threads gets smudged. A human problem, not a technical one per se.As a practical example, I prefer to use themarc.infointerface over theLKMLone, when following the Linux Kernel Mailing List. The marc.info interface shows the messages in time order, with the number of messages in each thread in brackets just before the subject. When I see a relevant subject, I check the thread view, and read the initial post of the thread. Depending on it, I may skip the thread, read the "key posts" (from subsystem maintainers and such, that I recognize), or read all posts thus far in the thread. Essentially, I treat the linux-kernel mailing list the same way this forum works: subjects sorted by time, with posts under each subject/thread in their posted order. It just works best for me.Quote from: tggzzz on April 02, 2020, 03:34:00 pmFor sure. This stuff hasn't changed in the last 30 years at all, except for some not so important technical details (like more bandwidth and CPU power available to do things that used to be too slow to be useful; and text formatting and image support when web forums became available a bit over 20 years ago).

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 04:48:48 pm
content: IMHO It's great, nice looking, very light interface but not good for all types of content. I don't think it's great for EEVBlog Forum either.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 07:54:07 pm
content: I'm actually surprised at the amount of agreement we've seen here. Usually if someone posts a terrible idea at least 10% of the population will jump on board if only to be contrarian but so far this seems to be unanimous aside from the OP.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 10:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 02, 2020, 07:54:07 pmamazing!DJ has eevblog.com forum purring perfectly, for a long while now,why mess with another forum format and invite unpaid work getting familiar and or chasing and stomping on reported bugs ?I believe the winning forum format is one that works across all browser platforms, old and newIf the forum 'works' every time, people will rock up here, be it with the latest slick gaming/AV rig or a Pentium 111 clunker running Win2000/XPand FWIW many people have lives to get on with, including web surfing and communicating to do,not waste time on browser updates to use added website features, or cater to the plethora of questionable security updates/patches/bandaids/opioids etc,praying some malware, adware or bugware hasn't crawled in, or not caught at the Beta release stage,'latest' features that should be an option to load, not a forced necessity just to 'view the content' or to tick some Checkout boxes,The Finger to all that, no more!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 10:54:35 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 02, 2020, 10:34:08 pmYet the one annoying thing with SMF unlike other platforms is the Reply button in each post where if you hit it a reply is generated with no reference to the post where the Reply button was.We all know to use the Quote button instead where other forums maintain the reference to the post from where you generated the reply.Confusing yes, especially for the newbie and a SMF patch for this would be a great improvement for EEVblog.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 11:45:51 pm
content: I am perfectly happy with the way it is.I can find what I am looking for.Lot of detail, minimal sizing of graphics, small text I can see many things in sight and no scrolling too much to to obtain little bits of information.I don't post much but I enjoy looking around and reading stuff.One thing I really hate on many modern websites and I hope it doesn't happen here. Fixed elements such as navigation/toolbars and widgets that get in the way. Sometimes they are put up carefully so they are not in the way or distracting and you can hide them (which I think should be a must) when not needed but in many places they just stick them there. Also a trend with making the graphics large and lots of white spaces so I have to scroll more but with stuff stuck there as well to me it interferes and bloats my viewing experience of the page where I am trying to pay attention reading the contents.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 01:18:58 am
content: White space belongs here:

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 02:44:35 am
content: Add me to the 'no thanks, it's just fine as it is' side. A few reasons:* Using a platform like Discourse, cedes control of the entire forum to the owners of that platform. There are many instances where platforms have killed off sub-forums, changed business model, or just gone out of business, thus erasing entire community histories.* The owner of a platform ALWAYS has ultimate control of content. And usually will use it to some extent to censor as they see fit. I may have some disagreements with Dave's policy regarding what is allowed, but I do think he's far better than world-average on this, and I can live with it. With any other platform it's a wildcard and probably far worse.* Visual styling - I love it the way it is. So many other forums are programmed by people with bizarre ideas of ergonomics and function. Some real examples:- Tiny light gray text on slightly darker gray background. No really, one I have to read is like this. Hate it. Would like to shoot everyone responsible. 'Night mode', please go die in a fire.- 'Folding' entries in threads. Having to click each individual post to see it. Arrgh!- Stupid 'markup' schemes, that for instance don't understand simple newlines. So everything has to be double-spaced if you want any space at all.- No option to load _ALL_ pages of a thread, to save/archive.- No or very restricted photo inclusions. WTF, this is the age of Terabyte drives and a net that handles billions of videostreams simultaneously, so what is their problem?* Structure: Here we have straight linear threads, paged, with explicit copy-quoting. Not much in the way of ratings and other 'social media' claptrap. No adverts embedded in threads. It's pretty much ideal. Adding almost any further structural complexity allows for distortions and brigading. For instance on sites like Reddit, where post hiding by sliding, downvoting, branch clipping, and so on is a refined censorship art.* Searching - linear threads without post hiding is also beneficial for searchability, since it allows major search engines to see and index all of it. When the built-in site search fails, this is important.Another factor is that eevblog isn't just a social forum, it's more like a valuable technical reference source in the form of a forum. Hence file and photo inclusions, 'show/save all', linear structure and reliable long term stabilityare essential.Eevblog stands out for its practical common sense, good taste and great utility. Thanks Dave!Edit to add: I do wish the 'photo inclusions out of sequence bug' could be fixed.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 02:52:11 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 03, 2020, 02:44:35 amDiscourse is a generally self-hosted piece of open source software..

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 03:13:03 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 03, 2020, 02:52:11 amOh is it? OK, my mistake. I had assume it was something like Disqus or WordPress.Since why on Earth go to the effort of porting the site to some other codebase?Just to get format support for tiny-screen mobile devices? But that's a wild goose chase, since fundamentally content intended for large screens _can't_ be auto-reformatted to appear sensibly on tiny screens. Other than by making it tiny, and letting the user zoom/pan as required.If someone is designing a commercial web site, then sure, make a parallel version for phone users.But eevblog consists of user posts. No one has time for that.Hmm, what do you mean 'generally'?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 03:16:31 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 03, 2020, 03:13:03 amLike many projects, they sell support services to fund development. In this context, that means managed hosting. I can't say what the terms of that are but I doubt it amounts to giving them ownership of the content.

author: vis1-0n
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 10:49:40 am
content: .Quote from: james_s on March 30, 2020, 01:24:28 am12 years back I had a 320x240 2" screen on my Nokia phone, and I used the Opera Mini browser which did a decent job of reflow or allowing me to zoom (mobile layout was not everywhere.) Two years later I upgraded to a 640x360 3.2" device and it was great, more screen and pixels! Less reflow, and I could have a desktop style experience with a little zooming and panning. Except mobile design started to take over like a bad virus and after a year many websites were rendering the same amount of information as the 320x240 device did. In 2012 to Android 800x480, and then 2014 to my current Note 4 2560x1440.Again, initially I could fit in a lot more of the websites and forums in the screen. Some screens forced mobile layout which are impossible to bypass, so maybe after their website update I got a lot less information on screen (going from 50 lines of text to 20-25 on the same device ) Apps also got updated and instead of listing 30 topics fitted to a screen it could drop to 15 and if they added rounded elements (found in Google's material design) there was even less on screen. (Circle icons don't stack as well as rectangles - wasting more space.)Where I would have 12 topics visible in Gmail, I now have 6. 10 items displayed onscreen on the shopping website? Now 5. Youtube 5x3 video thumbnails? Now 4x2.5. 12 Beneficiaries visible in my banking app? Now 7. I don't appreciate the larger font in the new update. No matter how much more screen or resolution you have, they find a way to drop the information density to worse that what my initial 320x240 device would display.My life has become one of endless scrolling and opening links into new tabs.Modern redesign has grown this montrosityhttps://css-tricks.com/- information density designed for mobile. Ironic when nearly all productive work is done on desktops.Discourse? I tried 6-8 of the sample sites. Fail.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 04:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: vis1-0n on April 03, 2020, 10:49:40 amCouple the low information density with the apparent need to hide all functionality behind obscure swipes and finger gestures, and you get what we have today- phone apps so bad that I prefer to carry a small laptop in my backpack...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 06:42:57 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 03, 2020, 02:44:35 amThere are some guidelines out there on minimum contrast and I think many web designers somehow interpret that as the recommended contrast thus you end up with this light gray on slightly darker gray stuff. It's absolutely horrible on some less than stellar displays.Night mode I think is a reaction to the blinding sea of white trend, in some ways it's an improvement over that but it still isn't as good as a more sensible design that just doesn't have the massive oceans of useless and ugly whitespace.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 06:20:52 am
content: If this thread were the Wild West, there would be dead bodies in the street by now.Seriously, some people just dont know how to disagree, state their reasons why, and move on.

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 06:37:36 am
content: Just one. Undertaker already measuring him up. And a lot of cowboys back at the saloon, loudly agreeing with each other over libations while Sheriff Jones looked on.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 06:41:43 am
content: Quote from: TomS_ on April 04, 2020, 06:20:52 amA weird comment, did you post this to a wrong thread? I think I haveneverseen such unanimous total agreement on this forum, ever.I think we need to thank the OP for joining everyone together on this. Maybe the idea was just a positive version of trolling? If the OP was serious, though, I kinda feel bad for them.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 07:02:17 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on April 04, 2020, 06:41:43 amI have definitely posted this in the intended thread.QuoteI have no problem with unanimous agreement, thats a pretty good outcome really and shows that there is a lot of love for the current format of the forum. But that is not the point Im getting at.Peoples attitudes stink sometimes, like they have some kind of personal mission to validate their own oppinion over someone elses. I just dont see the need for it. There are ways to disagree "professionally", and wars are started because people lack the ability to do so.But should I expect more from the Internet? Probably not.QuoteI definitely feel bad for them. No one deserves that kind of assault for proposing an idea. No matter who is right or wrong, a little courtesy never goes astray.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 07:19:44 am
content: It's the classical group lynching mentality. Happens on this forum time-to-time, like it happens everywhere. Yes, it sucks.There are psychological reasons for that, too.In this case, I would theoretize that many of us have, at some point in our professional careers, been abused by incompetent micromanaging bosses with bloated egos. These bosses often work by bringing in the buzzword bingo. As a result, some have developed an allergy-like condition to such business buzzword way of rationalization. It goes like this:- You NEED to use Docker because it's hot right now.- Wat, wait, but Docker has absolutely nothing to do with anything? You can't put the microcontroller in Docker!- We will use Docker, end of discussion...The OP did show exact sameparadigmof discussion, including the part with arrogance, which I think is why it gave such strong reactions tosomeof us.Then, when some people react strongly, possibly from understandable reasons, there always are those mindless puppets who join the group lynching when they see it happen. This is when the thing gets ugly, IMHO. I'm OK with a group getting against one if they show the reasons. When the scanvengers join, I'm out.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 07:42:44 am
content: Some of that hits a bit close to home.A company I have worked at in the past was big on trying to make everything "agile". It was definitely an ideal they aspired to, but didnt quite get there, so it was a little bit of an awkward mix of tradition and "so hot right now" ideas. My team was network engineering, and I dont really know how much of "developer ideologies" can really translate to our line of work. Aspects I can see promise for.Quote from: Siwastaja on April 04, 2020, 07:19:44 amIve always been taught in engineering: you can complain about something and why it sucks, but you better have a solution.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 08:00:32 am
content: Quote from: TomS_ on April 04, 2020, 07:42:44 amYes, and they taught me also that most of the time the solution is not to change anything.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 08:56:17 am
content: Quote from: TomS_ on April 04, 2020, 07:42:44 amEven more importantly, you have to be able to properly show that thereisa problem to be solved.If there is no problem, then there can't be a solution. In such cases, any imagined "solution" is likely to make things worse.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 10:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: TomS_ on April 04, 2020, 07:02:17 amI may have missed something but I'm not really seeing that. I can speak for nobody other than myself but I hold no ill will toward the OP, I do not dislike them on a personal level, I would not be mean to them if I met them, I haven't put them on my ignore list and would not avoid engaging with them in other threads. I disagree with their opinion on forum software and that's about the extent of it, the rest of us here seem to be on the same page. The guy could have backed off and not continued pushing once it because obvious they had an unpopular opinion but even so no real harm done. Text is poor at conveying tone of voice and emotion, people sometimes read more into something than is there.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 10:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on April 04, 2020, 07:19:44 amI wish I could argue that your example is absurd and that nobody could actually be that stupid but...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 06:32:48 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 04, 2020, 10:23:20 pmYes, it seems so absurd that no one can make that up, it can only happen in reality. (Yes, it's based on reality, of course simplified. In the end, I didn't have to use Docker, though.)

author: vis1-0n
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 08:23:35 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 03, 2020, 04:43:59 pmThis is so frustrating as well. Flat design where the elements blend away, where there is no text labels, where there is no colourful 3D icons looking like a real world object.It is fatiguing for me. I cannot recognise flat icons. I can recognise skeuomorphic icons. I have to figure out flat icons. My brain goes through a process at staring at a flat icon and interpreting it. This adds a few 100ms to every process and is fatiguing for me. Functionality is not obvious from the icon. and text labels are not aesthetically pleasing so they are often left out. I have to explore and learn each icons functions in a phone camera, instead of exploiting my past experiences gained from visual cues (which are more apparent in skeuomorphic icons). Or, you know, use of simple text labels.It may look nice and all, and maybe all that research1that the did say otherwise, but it really is physically tiring for me, and I am one who can stare at pages of ads automatically filtering them and picking out just the content.1simple examplehttps://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/a-design-with-all-caps/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 10:08:47 am
content: Quote from: vis1-0n on April 05, 2020, 08:23:35 amI'm not a fan of skeuomorphic design, but flatty design is equally bad in the other direction.Those of us with a memory can remember whenallGUIs were flat, and the significant usability benefits when the "3D" Motif widgets were introduced. Instantly you could see what you could press, and whether or not it was pressed. Nirvana.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 10:30:32 am
content: Yes, the UIs saw huge advances in late 1980's to early 1990's, and all the user experience problems were largely solved somewhere maybe 1992: instead of drawing a four-line box in a 1-bit color space, draw a filled box plus another filled box as a shadow, on a multi-color (more than two colors!) display. F***ing amazing!Now we are back to the 1980's.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 03:29:09 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 05, 2020, 10:08:47 amYep. Widgets with 3D effects (illusion of depth) increased usability in a tremendous way. Those effects give simple visual cues that almost anyone, even without prior computing experience, can understand.Flat design bullshit, OTOH, is terribly user-unfriendly. It may look "cleaner" to some (just a matter of taste though), but that's about it. Who fricking cares about some UI looking ultra-clean if you can't figure it out? It's like we've traded usability for pure looks. The computer-friendliness (less resources used?) is a bullshit argument; giving depth effects to widgets doesn't even require using any kind of 3D acceleration. But even if it were a valid argument in some cases, that would just mean ignoring usability just for the sake of technical reasons that weren't even a problem 30 years ago. Dang.Anyway, this is a fad that will pass.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_design

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 05:00:30 pm
content: I am an admin on a European forum (aviation related) which runs on custom software, written in Ruby on Rails. When the other guy, who wrote it, wanted to move on (due to getting busy elsewhere) I was offered the options of1) having the whole forum moved to a server under my control, or2) having the database ported to another forum package, and after looking at some, Discourse was evaluatedDiscourse had various problems. The main one was poor admin facilities. One of the things I do fairly often is move posts from one thread to another e.g. when somebody starts a duplicate thread. This is a part of trying to create a good long term information resource, without trying to create maximum traffic (we are donation funded; no adverts). Discourse can't do that. Well, it can but they don't appear chronologically at the destination; they just get chucked in at the end of the destination thread.The plus of Discourse (I see also posted early on here by what appears the site owner) is that it is good forphoneusers. IOW, it is more "mobile friendly" than the older style (e.g. PHPBB) forums. That is relevant because- google ranks "mobile friendly" sites higher- a large % of people live their lives entirely on a phone (on my site it is around 50%, and on non tech sites it might be 90%)BUT (and this is a huge BUT) thepeople who make useful contributions are almost never writing on a phone! Why? Because it is so painful. They are using a laptop or a PC, or possibly a tablet with a bluetooth keyboard. Andyesthey are nowadays a minority, but if you are trying to create and maintain an informative forum (and EEVblog certainly is that) you need to focus on these great contributors. Going for the "live on a phone" community just produces a forum which fills up with banal one-liners (i.e. like most of the internet).I recently spoke to a guy in the US who runs maybe 100 forums. He bought them up over years, put them on his own platform, stuck some adverts around them, and just runs them as admin. Mostly with the original mods, too... But his business is in a long decline. Traditional web based forumsarein a decline. A lot of clicks are being lost to other, more "phone friendly" social media.This is worrying a lot of people who run forums.What has changed over the last maybe 5 years is that the “one line tossing” activity (posters who toss in one-liners comprising mostly of drivel, smart-ar*e comments, etc) has moved to the new social media channels, with facebook being the main one for older people (the young are deserting fb and are moving to twitter, instagram, etc). And most forums, across all subjects, are full of that stuff.This is a real problem for a forum which relies on advertising for funding, because while these people may not have written much worth reading they did generate a lot of advert clicks.Another real problem for relatively unmoderated forums is that “kicking and beating-up” threads generate way more clicks than polite threads, so they are stuck. If they choose to moderate, they will lose a lot of income, and they are losing income to the other channels anyway. So no forum which suffers from poor content is going to reduce its membership. This is not an issue at EEVblog because personal attacks are not tolerated, which is good (mine is the same).What can be done? Probably nothing. One should stick with what one is doing really well and build on that. Not go for a phone-friendly forum because that will trash the site as an informative resource.So I think EEVblog should stay like it is, because it is the present format which keeps the good contributors.BTW the reason I didn't move my forum to PHPBB was partly because of security issues; PHP is a constant nightmare (open source + PHP!) and needs a full time skilled admin, which I am not and cannot afford to employ one. Ruby is more secure but is very expensive to enhance/change/maintain (it is a language which was all the rage 10-15 years ago and which now generates a nice income for those few who are good at it) whereas there is a lot more PHP expertise around. Discourse is also written in Ruby and the Discourse community is full of people who make a nice living porting existing forum databases to Discourse. I don't suppose a shortage of server admin skills is an issue for EEVblog however, but you have to be aware that going to Ruby is not going to make your life easier. I went for option 1) above because the existing Ruby software was quite solid and if I went to another forum platform - even a proven one - I would be throwing money at people to do mods and such. But all future work (add-ons etc) is being done in PHP.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 05:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 05, 2020, 03:29:09 pmPlease post trigger warnings before links to such graphic content. I wasn't prepared for that iOS screenshot. Yuck.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 05:24:48 pm
content: I agree with all your points, and would like to highlight these:Quote from: peter-h on April 05, 2020, 05:00:30 pmGood. Shame it doesn't completely discourage trolls.Quote

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 07:03:51 pm
content: The other thing you need, as an admin, is good functionality for detecting windups and such. You need to be able to detect in an instant if somebody is running multiple characters, for example. We had one guy who created about a dozen, but fortunately he knew nothing about IT so kept making the same basic mistakes. I won't say any more because we want trolls etc to keep making these mistakesWhat I find is that a lot of people read the forum while say travelling, on their phone, just to catch up, but those who write stuff worth reading usually do that when in front of a PC (or a Mac, obviously). So the site has to work acceptably on a phone.Another thing is that roughly 1/3 of new signups are spammers. This really started maybe a couple of years ago. We have gone to a manual approval process, because it got too much. I would get out of bed at 7am and find somebody posted a load of fake passport adverts all over the forum. In the manual approval step various things are checked which I won't discuss openly. Also at this step one checks for duplicate personas...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2020, 07:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on April 05, 2020, 07:03:51 pmThe mods do a pretty good job of that here and even the recent twit that used a proxy server was able to be squished.QuoteYeah been there when travelling too and one lined replies toobut at least we have a way to mark posts so when next at a PC we can prepare proper indepth replies instead if struggling with phones or iPads.Mark a post with Thanks and return to it later from the record of Thanks given in one's profile works pretty well.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 05:07:11 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on April 04, 2020, 07:19:44 amYep.

author: ruairi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 09:06:10 pm
content: I haven't read the whole thread but the forum is great as is. I have zero issues with it either on my laptop or phone.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 09:18:31 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on April 08, 2020, 05:07:11 pmMaybe you should have set the thread up as a poll. You would probably have got a very clear view of the membership's opinion of your proposal, without all the hassle.As Dave often points out though, the forum isn't a democracy. He would have the say, regardless of the outcome.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 04:19:22 am
content: It would be fun to set up a poll and see if we get 95%+ voting to keep it as-is.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 04:44:50 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmI just read through the ten pages of unanimous response to this proposal, and there was only one thing that was not mentioned as atotal fucking nois the "social login."Facebook and Google login are privacy and security disasters. Nobody needs to link their Facebook account to other websites. Why tell Facebook everything? It's ridiculous.It's not at all hard to create accounts on the websites you use. Now that every browser has a built-in password manager, you don't even have to remember the passwords.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 04:50:52 am
content: Oh yeah if single signon was required then screw that, I'd drop the forum like a hot potato. I abandoned Facebook years ago and *never* sign into anything via social anything, nobody in their right mind would. Social media is a cancer on society. It's spam 2.0, engineered from the ground up to harvest data.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 06:52:10 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 09, 2020, 04:44:50 amSome people are just not bright enough to be aware of that.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 08:44:56 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmI hope by now the OP realises that there are onlydisadvantagesto switching platforms. So say the people that have made this site a success, the long-term users that have contributed the most. Who cares about casual butterflies that flit here for a few posts, then flit elsewhere!As for "social login", that is a very strong disadvantage forusers. It might be an advantage for siteownerswho want to make a little money at their users' expense.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 10:13:11 am
content: The only real justification for moving would be if the replacement had the traditional NNTP protocol, which would allow client software considerably more flexibility when it came to handling message threading etc.https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69701.htmlMarkMLl

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 10:52:51 am
content: QuoteYou're daft if you're going to rely on your browser to manage passwords. Much easier to lose them that way then forgetting them - use a separate password manager at minimum, one that isn't tied to a particular product or - worse - a particular instance of a product.QuoteYes, indeed. But let's not create straw men to knock down. The probably implementation would be to ALLOW single signon, not mandate it. I visit a lot of places and even those that prefer Google/Facebook login don't mandate it. It's not not going to happen like that (at least, not until the rest of the web have already succumbed).

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 01:22:34 pm
content: I've never used Facebook, and never will. Any sites that require it are simply not going to be visited.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 01:38:21 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 09, 2020, 04:44:50 amI wouldn't even make social login an option here out of principle, I don't like the concept.Mandatory https and a 2FA option was recently added. OpenID used to be available but had to be dropped for some reason I don't remember.I'd love to add hardware 2FA but the plugin doesn't support it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 01:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on April 09, 2020, 01:22:34 pmRemarkably, Farcebook still tracks people that don't have an account with them.The keys are cookies used as UIDs, the Facebook logo on many pages, the referring page contained in the http request, and a little JavaScript.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 01:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 09, 2020, 10:52:51 amFWIW, in the specific case of Safari (both Mac and iOS), the actual password manager is the OS’s Keychain (a secure storage database the Mac has had since the early 90s). In theory, other browsers could also use it, they just choose to roll their own. What’s fascinating is the iCloud Keychain option: it sounds as though it would save it in the cloud, but it doesn’t. iCloud actually just marshals the individual devices to share their keys peer-to-peer, so they never hit the cloud. The weird consequence of this is that if you did manage to lose the data on all of your devices, your keychain would be well and truly lost.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 04:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 09, 2020, 01:40:21 pmGoogle obviously does the same... for example, when you use Captcha they really Gotcha!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 05:58:57 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 09, 2020, 04:34:17 pmAnd Twitter Verizon/Yahoo/OAuth, and probably the other icons shown at the bottom centre of the page.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 08:45:52 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 09, 2020, 04:34:17 pmYeah, having Google sticking their nose into human authentications really stings!

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 04:06:52 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmGrumpy users.I tend to get a bit grumpy when I have things that I don't wont there shoved in my face, notifications (cookies or offers) that darken the rest of the page and hurt my eyes in the process and toolbars stuck there when I am trying to scroll and widgets that popup. Also I have mess about with extensions to manage these things so I can read the contents without the annoyance that also may break other functionality. I don't see none of that here at the moment.Modern mobile experience?I just select desktop site and my screen is filled up with lots of content and as much I can see all made small and I just pinch and zoom where I want.much better readability for the forumUsers like me, maybe only few left or just me don't want it any more graphically bloated than it already is now and for the reasons above.Faster website?This website is perfectly fast even on my old stuff.modern editor, better emojisWhen I post the last thing I would want to think about are emojis or how pretty the editor may look.It's may not be perfect but I am happy with it.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 05:03:54 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 09, 2020, 01:40:21 pmI have cookies and JS off by default, and all of FB's domains resolve to 0.0.0.0.The Facebook logo on the bottom of this site's pages is actually hosted here, it's just a link to them (and I'm certainly not going to click it either.)

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 07:23:07 am
content: I quite like discourse where I see it used for tech forums, but I don't see how it would work for such a large forum like this with such wide ranging topics. I'm not sure the topic sort tools in discourse would really make it fun to navigate this forum's topics.Normally it works for single purpose forums - a good example is the things network forum.https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/Even though there's a range of different topics to talk about, everything in there relates back to the things network in some way. And the overall volume of messages seems way lower than here.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 04:52:43 pm
content: I just tried again with that site and find it absolutely painful to use. The blinding white causes physical discomfort to my eyes and the navigation is difficult, I can't tell where I am. Everything just blends together and I can't see how far down the list I've scrolled because it just keeps loading more and more as I scroll down. I have the same "WTF is this shit?!?" response that I had the first time I sat down to try Windows 8.

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 05:14:37 pm
content: One improvement in the forum is the ability to cut/paste images into the body without a seperate "upload" or attachment. phpBB is very old piece of software and there are some useful improvements in web technology. Simply having cut/paste support would allow me to more quickly (i.e. directly from altium, etc) paste in examples without creating an intermedate imge or reference an offsite link somewhere else (which is very, very bad style).There are some little things like that that would make it a bit easier.Granted, there are those who will say "get off my lawn with web technology that isn't from 1996" but those are the folks that still think FTP is a secure way of moving files and personal webpages look like something from Geocities with the "under construction" gif.(Note, I assume this forum uses phpBB or a derivative as it looks very close and the page source looks like it)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 05:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: ehughes on April 10, 2020, 05:14:37 pmJuuuust need to say again that this is not phpBB..Sadly, many of those improvements come bundled with huge steps backwards, from both the user perspective and the operator..

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 05:19:35 pm
content: QuoteOk. It really screams phpBB technology with the "FTP" and "Marqee" buttons with the ridiculous emoji.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 06:18:08 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 09, 2020, 10:52:51 amAs tooki notes above, Safari (which I use) uses the Mac Keychain, so log-in/passwords are available not only to the browser but to any application which takes advantage of the Keychain. And the Keychain synchronizes across all of your devices, linked by an Apple ID. And it works. If I create or change a password for, say, my bank's website, the Keychain on my laptop (what I'm using now) is updated and then that change is pushed to other devices. When I log in using my desktop the new password is there.That said, my only issue with the Keychain is that it can't be shared. This means that if my wife changes the password for the AMZN account it updates only her keychain, not mine, so she has to tell me the new password. To get around that, we also use 1Password. Having two separate, parallel password managers means that if for some reason one of the databases is lost, the other one still exists. (This is the other "gotcha" mentioned by tooki.)I understand why Firefox and Opera all have their own password managers and synchronization schemes, but it would be nice if they let you take advantage of operating-system features.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2020, 09:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: ehughes on April 10, 2020, 05:14:37 pmI'd prefer a website that looks like something from 1996 any day over one that I have to allow scripts from a dozen different sources to even get it to load properly. I'm interested in content, I want to have as much information as possible with as little effort as possible required to extract it. All that added bloat only gets in my way.I wouldn't argue that FTP is particularly secure, but it does work perfectly well for moving files around and I can run it on my own hardware without relying on some 3rd party service, and it's secure enough for my purposes.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 01:38:58 am
content: Quote from: ehughes on April 10, 2020, 05:14:37 pmNope,SMF.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 07:56:59 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 10, 2020, 09:37:05 pmI agree. And while FTP- or more precisely idiot users with a single password for everything- is a problem, it's probably a smaller problem than the potential for intrusion from running every script and plugin that arrives without wondering what it does.I have two browsers open on my desktop. The first is very firmly locked down and gets used for most browsing... and if somebody can't present his message without demanding I execute his media I'm likely to close it fast. The second uses NoScript to grant limited access to eBay etc., and to foramina like this one (which by coincidence are all based on SMF).MarkMLl

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 06:54:55 pm
content: I use a low security password on my ftp server anyway, it's one of the ones I put on stuff that I don't mind friends and family knowing because I don't use it on anything I care about having particularly secure. It's like a cheap padlock, it keeps the honest people from stumbling in and messing with stuff, the dishonest can break in easily enough if they really want to but there's nothing of any real value in there anyway so why bother. In the ~15 years I've had one running nobody has ever trashed it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 07:48:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 10, 2020, 09:37:05 pmYep. I am SO sick of sites using all that javascript for ads and other nonsense that doesn't do anything for me. I am not opposed to ads -- I absolutely understand that ads fund a lot of the sites I use. I consent to ads as such. What I do not consent to is 10x as long page loads (little of which is actually due to the payload size, but rather because of the sequenced requests caused by nested scripts) and web pages using incredible amounts of CPU just to sit there. I'm the kind of person who tends to have lots of browser windows open, and if every one of those were allowed to load all the scripts it wanted, my CPU would be pegged, all the time.So I use ad blockers to block all that crap, simply to reclaim my computer resources. If websites were willing to do server-side ads, such that by the time they reach my browser, there's no scripts, I'd be OK with allowing ads. But IMHO, using your readers' computer resources greedily is disrespectful, and I absolutely have no obligation to permit it.I also wish I could put out a bounty on anyone who uses a lightbox (the thing where the page dims and a modal dialog appears) to ask me to sign up for your newsletter. I guarantee, using one of those to nag mebefore I've even had a chance to read the pageis the way to get me to not even consider signing up, no matter what.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 08:05:11 pm
content: QuoteI don't mind those - they are easy to blockIt's the sites that require humongous js and other rubbish just to display the actual content that annoy me.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 09:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 11, 2020, 07:48:02 pmI always wondered what they were called, that's the thing that has been hurting my eyes. Some of them say "Sorry for the intrustion" about their cookies when they don't realize it maybe uncomfortable when they darken the rest of the page.I think of it as a bit like say 20 years ago, someone working with an old CRT screen and another person there adjusting the contrast and brightness controls going from one extreme to another thinking they're helping them see better.Someone told me that they switched off javascript years ago by default and now I am finding I have to do that a lot more often.Now with adverts,what I see some websites seem to be engaging in spammy behaviourand not just adverts alone. Rather than display adverts at the sides of the page where it scrolls with the rest of the page and so you see different ones I have seen websites display the same adverts on either sides of the page in a fixed position that flash and annoy/distract me, some appearing over the contents that either get in the way or expand the page making it jump. In other words interfering with the contents and my viewing of the page and they put the fixed videos that autoplay, so now it's easier without the aggravation by turning off the scripts as soon as I see a small dialogue with rest of the page darkening.I don't mind adverts but not shoved in my face over the contents like with any fixed element.To add to insult I am occasionally seeing, "Turn on Javascript for a better website experience" which is I turned it off in the first place.Dare click that bookmark killer to kill unwanted fixed elements and I have seen some sites as of recent engage in scroll jacking and I thought taking away my right click away was bad.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 10:40:15 am
content: Disabling javascript makes most websites unusable, unfortunately.Blocking adverts is also a problem in the long run, for a forum which needs the money, as all do. A site like EEVblog can behostedfor under $100/month, but the admin costs a lot more. The owner may be running it as a hobby and draw no income (I have no idea who is involved) but unless he has the entire range of IT skills required for modern www development and server admin he has to pay anything up to $1000/day to outsiders. One site I am involved with (written in Ruby on Rails) would cost that sort of money for any enhancements. We did an appeal for donations which raised about 3k over a year which covers the actual costs but that's only because the site is solidly written originally. Anything developed or ported-to recently will need much more work.Mods normally have to be paid something, too. If you recruit them from a pool willing to work for free, you get all kinds of weird people. I have seen this happen on numerous forums. You get the "police recruitment problem" where you end up with people who are not particularly bright and enjoy beating others up. The result is that a lot of mods end up doing a Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now and trash the site, because all the good intelligent contributors got pi55ed off and left. It can happen over just a few months.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 11:33:41 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on April 12, 2020, 10:40:15 amI for one am entirely happy with adverts. I'm not happy with adverts which demand the privilege of running code on my computer, and will send a list of my bureau rates to anybody who thinks they can stand the tab.MarkMLl

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 11:44:08 am
content: QuoteThat's debatable. Relying on adverts isn't a sustainable business model, and a business model is what a forum needs if it's going to grow and thrive. Someone running a hobby site but of the size of EEVBlog is akin to someone whacking together an Arduino doobrey using info from Instructables and then selling it in the thousands as a mature product. Or compare some bloke with 20 viewers on Youtube with theapparentlyhobby LTT channel which actually rivals serious broadcast TV.The problem with adverts is that they need to be shown to people. Just plonk them on your site and they probably won't piss off anyone but they won't be doing any good either, and sooner or later your advertisers are going to realise that. So you start pushing them in front of eyeballs so they do get seen, and some time later you have toproveto your advertisers that they are being seen. And maybe eventually your advertisers realise the adverts aren't actually cost effective, and there goes your single-source supply of goodness.There are other ways of funding hobbies. Perhaps most of them have drawbacks too, but that's life. If it was dead easy we'd all be running super-forums and too busy spending the proceeds to visit anyone elses efforts.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 12:44:09 pm
content: Many of the users that block ads do so because they find *ALL* advertisements to be useless annoyances*. Even if you get them to turn off their ad-blockers, you wont get any clickthrough from them without tricking them. Any site with deceptive ads doesn't deserve any revenue they get from them. Customers that will click to buy anything shiny waved in front of them usually aren't technically savvy enough to (a) want, (b) install, and (c) maintain an ad-blocker. Therefore I question whether ad-blockers significantly impact the revenue stream of any reputable site.* The last time I bought anything due to an advertisement was back in the '80s, from an ad in a computer magazine. I have never bought anything from a TV or internet ad. OTOH I will occasionally impulse buy stuff that has been reviewed by a source I trust.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 01:06:33 pm
content: I run adblock by default and on eevblog I see just the two ads at the top. I don't know if there are others. These two are ok. But to get decent income you normally need lots more adverts."Relying on adverts isn't a sustainable business model, and a business model is what a forum needs if it's going to grow and thrive"What would be a "sustainable business model"?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 05:01:21 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on April 12, 2020, 12:44:09 pmExactly this. Ads are irrelevant to me, I'm just not a typical consumer, I have never deliberately clicked on an online ad in my life, I have never seen something in an ad on TV and gone out and bought it. Serving me ads is just a waste of bandwidth and a waste of everyone's time. When I see enough ads for something or someone (eg politicians) that I notice, it actively starts to turn me against them.I didn't mind online ads until they started getting pushy. Blinky animated stuff, then popups, it got so invasive that at some point I said ENOUGH and actually bought an ad blocker back before the free ones were a thing. I never looked back.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 06:09:11 pm
content: Without wishing to contradict you regarding the undesirability of adverts, how do you expect the forum which you make good use of to keep running?I run a forum too (technology, but not electronics) so I know what's involved. We have decided to not have adverts, for various reasons including- people hate them- everybody who knows how to will adblock them- if adblock doesn't work (e.g. because the ads are served from the same server, along with the main page) people will run scripts to block them (this is what e.g. Facebook Purity does on facebook)- if there is a disreputable vendor (which in the subject of my forum is pretty common) then what will you do if they want to advertise???- you have to de-moderate the mod policy, because kicking/beating/biting posts generate far more traffic and thus clicks on ads (and then most intelligent people leave)- you have to run a "no bashing vendors" policy otherwise the advertisers will dump you, and new ones will be wary (and this degrades the forum because crappy products cannot be discussed)So we went to donation funding. This is ok until you have to pay commercial rates for server side development. I don't know EEVblog traffic but mine has had 250k posts over 7 years, about 100/day, and has 200 posters in any past 30 days. The donations cover what we have but not any significant development, and certainly no profit for the owner.I know of sites in the US which are 10x bigger and they run adverts and they are ok, but they have to deal with the above issues, including a no-bashing policy. But there are many cultural differences between the US and Europe...

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 06:10:50 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on April 12, 2020, 01:06:33 pmSomething that doesn't rely on a broker- Google or otherwise- which is likely to demote you on a whim and insist that they are not accountable to you.MarkMLl

author: W9GFO
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 06:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pmNo. Discourse may be popular now but probably won't be in ten years. Then what, switch to the next fad?Keep it right here where the owner has total control and is not hostage to a third party that may change policies/owners on a whim.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 06:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 11, 2020, 09:38:54 pmYep, I agree right you on pretty much everything you say.The lightbox, as its name suggests, was originally developed for zooming into picture thumbnails without requiring a page load. Then some turds started using them for popover messages (in sensible ways), and suddenly like wildfire the fucking things were everywhere for nagging.I know exactly what you mean about the flickery jumpy fixed items.It’s incredible to me that my internet connection now is literally 400 times as fast as the one I had 20 years ago, but these dipshit web devs and site operators have seen to it that performance is far worse than it was back then.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 07:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on April 12, 2020, 06:09:11 pmFrankly that's not my problem. I like to think that overall I add some value to the forum and bring in other eyeballs that may be influenced by ads that do not do anything for me. Maybe the online culture that expects everything to be free and ad supported is just going to have to change? I don't block the banner ads in this forum because they're not intrusive, they're passive, silent and they advertise legitimate companies. I've never (intentionally) clicked on one either though so am I stealing service by not buying products from the companies that advertise here? Actually I do buy boards from JLC PCB but not because I saw an ad banner, it's because someone pointed me to pcbshopper, JLC was the cheapest and I've been happy with the quality of their product.Obviously ads do work in general or they wouldn't still be around, but I think it's on the advertisers to not be obnoxious about it. If ads hadn't gotten so obnoxious in the first place we'd see far fewer people blocking them. Popups, auto-play videos, garish animated banners, ads that play sounds, all this annoying stuff should be as unacceptable as letting yourself into someone's house and gluing a physical advertising banner to a prominent wall. They would notice the ad for sure, but it would also piss people off and lead to them taking precautions to prevent it. Finding creative new ways to be even more obnoxious is not the answer, but it's the approach that many advertisers have taken.

author: W9GFO
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 07:36:47 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 11, 2020, 07:48:02 pmMan I hate those things. I automatically close them when they appear, never read them. Ever.Kind of like how everything is "known to the state of California to cause cancer", it has no meaning anymore because it is everywhere. It gets ignored as soon as it is presented.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2020, 09:34:34 pm
content: QuoteI haven't had to make one up for a forum so can't advise, but I can see from Youtube that building your life around adverts isn't it.Maybe ask Dave

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 06:02:55 am
content: Almost nobody makes money on youtube, despite half the world desperately trying it

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 06:40:11 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on April 13, 2020, 06:02:55 amThat's the case with trying to make a living being any type of celebrity. For every small timer who manages to get by there are at least 1,000 who try and get nowhere, and there are probably at least 1,000 small timers for every A-list celebrity. These numbers might actually be orders of magnitude larger even depending on how you define success.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 02:43:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 13, 2020, 06:40:11 amBased on my video from 6 months ago, approximately 15,000 channels have over 1,000,000 subs. Almost every one of those would be a full time Youtuber.And over 150,000 channels have over 100,000 subs. Many of those would be full time, I'd guess at least a third of them.So you could in the order of 50,000 full time Youtubers in the world. But yeah, that's a tiny fraction of those with channels who aspire to get there.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 05:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 10:15:48 pm

author: vis1-0n
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2020, 12:48:55 pm
content: Things are very transient on the web and I wanted to archive a long page (about 100 posts - teehee) and failed. Print to PDF from Chrome outputted the top few posts and blanked out the rest down to the sites page footer in whitespace style. I moved over to Opera as it has option to Save to PDF (although this renders to a single WYSIWYG PDF page, so it may be end up 10cm by 1300cm PDF file, actually perfect in many ways, no pagebreaks, image rescaling etc)Again the discourse website spewed out the top few posts. Move along to halfway the page. Spewed out that portion leaving the others blank. Same for the bottom. Another point subtracted for infinite scroll. At least with MyBB, phpBB, SMF and vBulletin paging I can go through all the pages and do a reliable PDF save.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2020, 07:38:55 am
content: Quote from: vis1-0n on April 24, 2020, 12:48:55 pmAgain, that's mistaking a poor implementation for a poor idea. It's easy to save dozen-page threads on Rennlist, going back to that example, because they specifically provide a way to do so.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 11:01:09 am
content: My apologies for commenting to a thread which last saw activity almost exactly a year ago.For information, Arduino has just migrated from SMF to Discourse and I don't think anybody is happy.Part of the problem was managerial: apparently not even moderators or prolific and well-respected fixers-of-folks'-problems were given adequate opportunity to review the new platform. Another part is obviously "things have changed and I'm sufficiently busy that I resent having to put time into familiarising myself with the new stuff".However there are also other problems: as mentioned in the post above pages aren't fully-populated and in fact scrolling upwards two or three messages generates network traffic as that portion of the page is reloaded.Another underlying problem appears to be that- at least as used by Arduino- it uses some sort of "cloud-based" architecture. The result of that is that the server IP address changes regularly (i.e. every time you open a link in a new tab) which triggers protective software such as NoScript: if we're having to permit access to a large number of "cloudy" addresses I find myself what other services might be colocated on those same systems.It is apparently argued that Discourse is open-source (as in fact is SMF), and the description on Wp reports that it uses PostgreSQL which is arguably more expandable than MySQL (and less beholden to Oracle et al.). But the impression I get is that the user-facing presentation and network problems are sufficiently serious to outweigh architectural advantages... unless Arduino were really up against some poorly-publicised SMF limitation.MarkMLl

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 11:38:01 am
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 25, 2021, 11:01:09 amMy overall view is it's impressive given the sheer size of their forum. They said that Discourse peeps helped with some of the heavy lifting and will help to iron out the kinks. I don't know the terms of engagement, but I suspect the SMF was costing money to maintain, Discourse maybe offered to help setup their stuff on the biggest platform, you know, cos it's there.There was always going to be quibbles and squabbles. I wish they had ditched that color scheme.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 11:55:47 am
content: Haven't been there in a while, but noticed this on the topics I looked at the bottom -This topic will close 4 months after the last reply.Was that there before?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 01:16:24 pm
content: Endless scrolling with no page breaks should be banned from the internet.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 02:13:34 pm
content: If you need to save an endless page (perhaps for archival or just to read en bloc), I can recommend a Firefox extension called Singlefile:https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/single-file/Unlike the normal page save, it puts everything in a single file (surprise) instead of a sub-folder with a file-per-resource. You can annotate, save just a selection, etc. I use it all the time to clip to a notes database in preference to using the built-in clipper.Relevant to Discourse, it captures the entire endlessly-scrolled page, kind of like the 'print' option here. Unfortunately, it doesn't capture image pastes, presumably because the image is not actually on the page but only shown if you click it.Edit: The sample I took when trying this out is attached, in case anyone wants to see what's possible with a single click. Completely unedited or otherwise messed with.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 03:22:57 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on April 25, 2021, 11:38:01 amAllowing that every page loads something from discourse-cdn.com there has to be money changing hands somewhere, unless Discourse's sole interest is demonstrating that their platform can host large foramina and selling their services to corporates on the strength of that.I believe that that business model can be made to work, since my business's ISP hosts email etc. using Roundcube... and the rather larger corporate that a friend works for uses it for their internal communication.MarkMLl

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 05:45:43 pm
content: In the time since this thread was opened I've encountered several Discourse based forums, some I tried to like because I liked the content but ultimately I just hate it and abandoned all of them. It's just so... bad, there is so much wrong with the experience that it's hard to even put it into words. The fact that some people actually like Discourse suggests to me that some peoples minds are fundamentally wired differently than mine. At this point I've just decided that I refuse to use Discourse, I will not join any that are on it and will abandon any that switch to it, it just isn't worth the aggravation.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 05:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 25, 2021, 05:45:43 pmNo matter how truly terrible, God-awfully bad something is, there will always be a few people that like it!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 05:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 25, 2021, 05:56:08 pmThe developers mothers don't count.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 06:26:50 pm
content: They must be doing *something* right based on the way it's spreading everywhere, but damned if I know what. Maybe it's just slick marketing, or the social media junkies that I can't begin to relate to.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 06:51:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 25, 2021, 06:26:50 pmMore whitespace and mobile "fashionality" ??P.S.Where am I, andwhyam I in thishandbasket??!

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 11:21:22 pm
content: My biggest issue with Forums (like this one) and Discourse is how all the data is "locked in" to this site. If our fearless leader decides one day to close up shop, that's it. There's no public backup, no public database and no way to archive the site as it is so it could be searched on something like the internet archive.Mailing lists and IRC are pretty much the peak of technical discourse, IMO. (insert "old man yells at cloud" pic here)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 11:29:23 pm
content: I hate mailing lists, I already get enough spam as it is without getting dozens of emails from some mailing list. IRC was cool back in the 90s when I was a teenager but I'm not really a fan of online chatting in general. Forums like this work really well for me, although it would be convenient if there was some sort of archive or a way to export threads of interest. Bottom line there I guess is nothing lasts forever, especially nothing on the internet, somebody has to maintain it or it eventually returns to that from which it came.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 12:25:18 am
content: Hopefully, if Dave ever gets tired of running the EEVBlog, it will be handed on as a going concern to "someone or something"... but it is hard to ignore that Dave is uniquely good at this, and any successor likely to mess it up (with tons of white space, for example!)

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 01:28:41 am
content: Quote from: aandrew on April 25, 2021, 11:21:22 pmwget?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 03:53:03 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 26, 2021, 12:25:18 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 06:54:29 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 26, 2021, 12:25:18 amHmm, so me up all last night projectile hurling into the bowl may not have been a myserty virus... I suspect I'd better watch my back, something is afoot....

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 07:09:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 26, 2021, 06:54:29 amAs long as your head doesn't start rotating on your shoulders. Keep an eye out for sudden bed-levitation.Failing that get the family to chant The power of Christ repels you.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 08:25:26 am
content: Quote from: drussell on April 26, 2021, 01:28:41 amwget works well for static sites where every document has a unique URL, and there's a "root" document with links in a tree structure. It's much less use for "modern" websites where there is no explicit tree, and locations are either identified likehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=unreadreplies;start=0or likehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/migrating-the-forum-to-discourse/msg3557316/#msg3557316It's no use at all where a page is identified solely by a site name, and all content is generated by inline scriptinghttps://www.ebay.co.uk/myb/PurchaseHistoryIn principle, it's possible to scrape content by generating every possible message number and sending a wget request for that specific page. Both SMF and Discourse appear to be amenable to that to some extent, and I've done it with Hackaday in the past to get a complete content list (I was trying to organise my reading, it's a useful site but I'm 18 months behind on it).@aandrew mentioned the possibility of converting it to a mailing list, or IRC. I'd like to comment on that, and think it might be worth doing so in this message since anybody who isn't a comms nerd has already given up on it :-)Mailing lists and Usenet-style discussion groups have the useful property that every message has a unique ID that in principle is generated when the message is first created and never changed. That's why clever software can thread messages and subtopics intelligently, which makes using a large and busy discussion group much easier.Many email clients store messages in a flat file, which makes sorting and manipulation (i.e. "retrieve the message with this ID" difficult).Some email clients and most discussion group clients and servers store messages numbered sequentially. Looking "under the hood", client software can rapidly locate a message using that sequential number but not by the original message ID. A major problem here is that a user can post a link to a message stored on his client system or local server, but that link usually contains the sequential number rather than the ID so is useless to anybody else.In the UK there is a conferencing system called CIX, which at one time was heavily used by tech journalists and the likes. This had limited direct compatibility with mail/Usenet, BUT had the very important property that the unique message ID was guaranteed and any user could generate a message link containing it which was immediately useful to all other users and to the handful of offline readers (notably AMEOL, "A Most Excellent OffLine reader") which various people wrote to support it.I'd add here that MediaWiki, like SMF, stores pages in a MySQL database and that to some extent that can be backed up and manipulated. Discourse's choice is apparently PostgreSQL, which is probably superior in its scalability etc. and in any event isn't beholden to Oracle.Irrespective of backend, IRC messages carry no metadata and can't be meaningfully threaded. Good fun perhaps and OK for rapid-fire questions where a limited number of people are trying to talk at the same time, but much less generally useful.The bottom line is that for archival and forking purposes, there's no alternative to getting hold of the raw messagebase and then seeing what server software can be used to present it. I've known various people who've attempted to generalise this, and have done a limited amount myself.I'd like to emphasise that I am in no way suggesting a "palace coup" against Dave. SMF's presentation and Dave's site management are entirely adequate for what's going on here, although as a former CIX/AMEOL user I'd say that in principle the message threading could be improved. However if he did have any comments about scaleability etc. I think we'd all be very interested to hear them.MarkMLl

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 02:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 26, 2021, 08:25:26 amThe EEVblog forum has an index, so if one were to point a recursive crawler at it, (probably some incantation of something like wget -r -k -phttps://www.eevblog.com/forum,) you should get a local mirror of the whole forum. This obviously doesn't let someone "continue" the forum but does provide a static archive of a site if it were otherwise disappearing completely.Obviously, common administrator etiquette dictates that you should never actuallydothat on a large site without first coordinating with the site admins, setting some bandwidth or rate limits, etc.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 03:48:28 pm
content: Well the only two sites I frequent that are based in Discourse are the Rocky Linux Foundation one - the spin after the CentOS had changed to CentOS Steam -https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/12/centos-shifts-from-red-hat-unbranded-to-red-hat-beta/- that is a very small forum, and the Level1techs that looks like it is Discourse but can be something similar that is huge and with lots of technical info and activity.My opinions are meh, I don't mind. It is true that "dinosaurs" like SMF, phpBB and vBulletin simply work and have a lot of development years plus a wide implementation on the WWW. But is also true that their layout is dated compared with the new trends, specially for mobile.Discourse and other similar solutions - one proprietary that comes to my mind is reddit - are definitely more modern, nicely looking and support mobile and tablets natively or via an APP. Although the endless page load is very taxing on the memory of a PC. With 1 tab open on Firefox and 30 subreddits subscribed, some low traffic all day and others that have new messages each 10 sec in high traffic time, and uBlock extension working to not show the ADS, I can scroll until 1 day before (24 hours) and I start to note a slowdown on Firefox and 8GB of RAM consumed just on that tab.Plus the internet points that most of this kind of solutions, a la Youtube, Facebook and Twitter Likes/Dislikes (that I despise, specially Facebook and Twitter that are mainly a Cesspool) that makes what is popular on top, most of the times as the laziest attempt possible, while good technical/informative posts are relegated to the bottom of the barrel because "they are boring" (the attention span of the new generation in full effect). For that reason I have reddit with the New option activated, that means that I see the posts chronologically by publish time and not by votes, like a normal forum is.The reality is that both solutions fit their role, both have limitations. I think that it should be the kind of "don't change the winning team". Changing just for the fact of being "modern", "in", "trendy", etc means jack shit and will alienate a lot of current users, some who prefer the simplicity of how things are and others that simply don't want to learn a new way because how currently is works and don't need to be changed - and the human being is very reticent to change their way of doing things just for the sake of changing when both get the same end result.Could look better, yes it could. But will it really matter when in reality we are here for the info and the exchange of knowledge, not for collecting badges or making a competition of who is the most popular. To me even the post count should be something that should be hidden or only count in certain technical subsections of the forum. I frequented back in the day a forum - the XtremeSystems Forums - that the counter was disable for threads created on the off-topic subsection that was the one with most traffic per day. Not only that but also because the Buy/Sell/Trade Section of the forum was blocked to users with less than 50 posts, so that way they kinda prevented the type of user who registers just to sell stuff.But as also mentioned, all the info of the forum should be mirrored (and I'm sure that Dave done it already, mind it, this is not a critique to anyone, on the opposite) in case something very bad happens and all this info is lost. We already lost a lot of old discussions and tons of valuable info when Yahoo Groups closed and warn that all the info in the 18 years since they started was going to be purged, having the users to run against the time to archive years of valuable info.I feel fine here, even if the "house" is not as modern as the other ones in the end of the road. The moderation and administration are spot on, not too much but also not too lenient. Even if sometimes the users are a little hard to talk with. Most of the times I'm afraid of commenting because there is people here with heck more knowledge about something than me but with bad temper, but as an IT guy is the same, no time for bullshit and stupid questions so I understand perfectly well. That makes me to really select what I can comment and will not get eaten alive by any stupid thing I must say. But enough, that is my 2 cents.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 04:12:45 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on April 26, 2021, 03:48:28 pmPerfect example of why you shouldn't trust cloud services to be long term stable...

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 04:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 26, 2021, 04:12:45 pmSome clever peeps have run their feet off feeding the archive sites with this content. The sword of Damocles hangs over every platform. It's a shame that the archive sites can't be more interactive rather than static and frozen in time.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 04:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on April 26, 2021, 03:48:28 pmI snipped most of your message but I need to ask: did you write it on a smartphone, or did you use a computer?Because I think that the vast majority of this forum's users access it using a standard web browser on a standard computer, not through an app or mobile browser on a smartphone.You simply can't write a detailed response with, perhaps, graphics and images on a smartphone.Anyway, one wonders whether the Discourse developers bothered to submit their product to actual usability testing. Actually, I don't wonder. Because if they did, their software wouldn't suck.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 04:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 26, 2021, 04:34:29 pmI use both the Smartphone, the Laptop and a Tablet. It depends of the situation, were I am and what is close by. Regarding writing an message with image links (IMG) and text on a Smartphone, is possible but time consuming, but I've done sometimes. But yes, most of the time I access this forum via PC, so it doesn't bother me that much.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 06:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on April 26, 2021, 04:55:57 pmI use smartphones/tablets primarily to consume information, not for content creation (other than short messages). I suspect most people do that, unless all they have is a phone.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 07:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on April 26, 2021, 03:48:28 pmScrew trends. So many of the challenges we face in tech these days are caused by people obsessed with change for the sake of change, to keep up with the changing winds of fashion and it's a complete waste of time. What's wrong with "dated"? What does that even mean? Is the wheel "dated"? Are levers and pulleys "dated"? To me stuff that has been around a while and serves the purpose for which it was designed is "tried and true", it works, it does the job, it has withstood the test of time. Quit screwing with it just to keep it looking new and trendy, if you want to do that with your pet project go right ahead but when it's a tool that thousands of people use, leave it alone unless it is actually broken.Interacting with something like a forum on mobile is a painful experience, I don't care how trendy the interface looks. I'll do it in a pinch when all I have available is a phone, but 99% of the time I want to use it from a computer with a proper keyboard, screw mobile, certainly don't make it the primary focus. It may make sense to focus on mobile if your site is for kids or middle aged women but technical people who wish to contribute meaningfully are overwhelmingly going to primarily use a proper computer.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 08:04:43 pm
content: I already have mentioned this at the start of this thread when it was first posted, but i think it bears mentioning it again...If there ever is a migration planned, please take a look at Xenforo.This is a classic forum software that is also very mobile friendly. At the same time though it does not loose the look and feel of a forum.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 08:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on April 26, 2021, 02:14:38 pmNot nice. Not /at/ /all/ nice.Now granted that I've not put any real amount of effort into this since /if/ this had to be done I'm sure it would be to help Dave out rather than trying to do it from outside, but I've not found a way of getting a message in isolation and every page that comes back comprises multiple messages in iframes... but the message number /is/ preserved.It would be possible to do something like piping the wget response into a script which broke it up and saving each message precisely once, but getting full coverage of the messagebase would still be uncertain and there would be a vast amount of redundant data transferred: I'm seeing a 1/4Mb response to a request for a single message.MarkMLl

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 08:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on April 26, 2021, 08:04:43 pmExcept that it's similarly based on PHP and MySQL, so is presumably subject to the same scalability issues as pushed Arduino off SMF (unless "felt really old" is their only justification)./If/ I were tackling this and wanted to do a proper job, I'd rough out a semi-automatic PHP-to-real-language translator with PostgreSQL as a backend and then go looking for venture capital.MarkMLl

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 08:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on April 26, 2021, 08:04:43 pmYes well accurateshooter.com changed from SMF to Xenforo a few years back and while in some ways it's nicer to use SMF is somewhat more powerful.Dave's looked at Xenforo over the years and chosen to stay with SMF.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/important-smf-forum-software-is-all-but-abandoned/Mobile view is something you either love or hate and most mobile devices select Mobile view by default however it's easy enough to flip to whatever format you like best with the nearly invisible link at the foot of any forum page:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?thememode=mobile;redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eevblog.com%2Fforum%2Ftestgear%2F

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 10:38:31 pm
content: I have used most of the forum software packages over the years including many mentioned here as a webmaster, moderator and user.I have to say, if you are going to go ahead with the move away from SMF (which while lightweight and simple, is showing its age) please use Xenforo.It is one of the best out there that keeps the spirt of classic forums without being old school like SMF or throwing out the forums concept like Discourse does.Moving forums software is never easy for anyone but it is not too difficult to match the URL formatting so no need to worry about losing all that search engine ranking.It is also easy to scale horizontally and the CMS is also very good.Works well with mobile devices too. I can't use SMF on mobile at all. It is shit just like VB on mobile.I have an Xenforo site running right now with nearly 200k users and it gets a lot with API requests and it does fine on my 4 core Ryzen 5 with 8GB of RAM webserver with a dozen other websites.Granted we have many users and hardly any content as we use it for user accounts for offsite purposes.I did a few years ago have a large forum with around 250k users, of which around 40-50k active daily serving something like 2-3TB of media. That was Xenforo on around 12 skylake cores with 32GB of RAM. All media severed off a OpenStack bucket (simular to AWS S3 but priced right).Spent a lot of time optimising cache and database to get it preforming right but we got there.There is the argument that if it ain't broke don't fix it.Obviously not fireproof but this forum just works as it is. Do people here really need better features like what modern forum systems offer?Like, I much more prefer the Wysiwyg editor on modern forums such as copy and paste an image into the reply with built in display size adjustments.Can't do that here.If you do end up upgrading, let's have larger file size uploads too? I understand why you might not want loads of large jpges but modern forums allow you to server high and low quality images as well as modern formats like webp.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on April 26, 2021, 10:38:31 pmBeing able to copy/paste stuff directy into a post is my favorite feature of ZenForo. Apart from that, it's pretty much the same as SMF.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:27:54 pm
content: That would be a nice perk if one were starting from scratch, but it certainly doesn't justify changing. Migrating over a feature like that is like Trading in your car to buy one with a different cupholder.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 12:42:28 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 26, 2021, 07:51:50 pmIf you read the rest of my post you will see that I arrive at the same conclusion:Quote from: Black Phoenix on April 26, 2021, 03:48:28 pmJust because I mention something doesn't mean I agree with it. It was mentioned as an example and to build my explanation.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 02:20:07 am
content: Discord for sure is much better than a forum, forum is a 80's legacy

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 02:45:29 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 27, 2021, 02:20:07 amIn what specific ways is itbetter? Please elaborate...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 02:57:42 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 27, 2021, 02:20:07 amThen feel free to use Discord, which is not a forum and not what this thread is about, instead of being oblivious here..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 04:01:15 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 26, 2021, 11:27:54 pmWell, of course not, you wouldn change just to get a feature like that.You would change for long term reasons, and I belong to a couple of forums that have moved from SMF to Xenforo for better long term support.That being said it can be argued that because SMF is open source and Xenforo is commercial, technically SMF has the better long term support prospects as you can make changes yourself if needed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 04:06:24 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 27, 2021, 02:20:07 amThat you seem to use a lot, and is handily 100% search indexed on Google.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 07:43:07 am
content: Quote from: Jackster on April 26, 2021, 10:38:31 pmI think the major justification would be /if/ SMF were unable to scale, and that turned out to be unfixable even given the technical acumen of the extended community of administrators and users.There are obviously subsidiary issues like potential problems serving to 'phones and tablets, however the WAP/WML debacle demonstrated that many problems can eventually be solved by advances in browser technology.And competent management, which I think everybody agrees we've got around here :-) , would notice that well in advance and make sure any alternative was properly tested and broken in, not rushed though on the grounds that it "felt really old" as in the case of Arduino.MarkMLl

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 10:37:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2020, 11:45:24 pmI agree that i Xenforo is not too bad. I wouldn't mind if EEVBlog moved over to Xenforo, but i think it is good as-is currently.I'm a member at the SaabCentral forums, which moved to Xenforo and before that i think they had the same look as EEVBlog forums do now (same platform?).So far i've noticed the only thing that doesn't work after the big move to Xenforo are the old smiley faces, but the very old ones, the kind that make you feel nostalgic. I'm sure something like that can be fixed if need be.The general look and layout of the forum is the same, adding images to the post has become easier and posting in general has not changed much.I like it when an image can be inserted along with the relevant text, it makes it easier to reference the image and doesn't require you to keep scrolling down and back up everytime you want to look at what's on the image, especially on long posts or posts with many images.So far my favorite feature is the dark modeIncluded image is the general look of the forum boards, so that you can see what i'm talking about.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 10:53:55 am
content: Also i checked the Discourse-based forums linked by others and they're SO BAD.Like, why do people approve this, why do they think this looks good?Imagine thinking that a highly technical forum full of members, who spend their time reading datasheets and other sources of information that are jam-packed with data will want to move to some dumb floaty whitespace burn-your-eyes-out horror show.Some people might think Discourse is good because it's "modern", it's "clean", it's "minimalistic" but in reality it's even messier, run by an even yet messier code in the background.This forum is not some fashion item you replace just because some "new" thing came out.This discussion holds no ground here, because i trust both Dave and the members involved will never allow a move to discourse or any similar platform.But that also makes me feel sorry for the forums that did.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 10:55:23 am
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 27, 2021, 07:43:07 amWhich I find would be a shame if it could not longer scale but I just remembered this over Eevblog IRC during the outage:QuoteNice to have gnif here to make it work.For serving phones and tablets I have no issue at the moment viewing this over a phone in the desktop site which I prefer than the mobile where I find I can do a lot more.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 11:12:26 am
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on April 27, 2021, 10:53:55 am...or because it supports 'phones and tablets better. But if somebody's hit a problem while actively writing code for something like an Arduino, is he really going to be working a 'phone or a tablet, or if he is is he really going to be using Android with its limited multitasking?I'm very dubious about all of these development platforms that try to get everybody to do stuff "in the cloud", particularly while "share your projects with the community" is a vast distance from "work collaboratively with other members of the community". I really do have to wonder what business model they're cooking up.MarkMLl

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 11:53:07 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 27, 2021, 02:20:07 amYes, forums in their current form are an old concept. And circular wheels are even older.While there some areas that actively resist change even though new and better things are available, there are also things that were simply good ideas from the start. New and better are not the same.

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 12:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on April 27, 2021, 10:53:55 amWhy not?I remember fondly when The Daily WTF / Worse Than Failure used community server as they forum platform. We had lots of fun abusing that system. Then the golden trio got bored and created Discourse.Go figure.(besides this single horror, Spolsky, Alex and the other one that I always forgot are terribly brilliant engineers)

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 12:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: pardo-bsso on April 27, 2021, 12:07:39 pmThen either i lack context or have only seen the worst examples, becauseitDiscourse doesn't look good to me. (IMO)

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 01:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on April 27, 2021, 10:37:32 amA list, in no particular order, what i like about XenForo:- The inline WYSIWYG editor. It is no longer required to have the thread open in another tab to see the images. You can be on any page of a thread to post, you can even switch pages without losing anything- The automatically saved drafts. Start writing a post on your mobile, finish it on the evening on the PC- Just copy-paste images into the posts, the image is automatically inlined- The notification system, though i can see that this may get overwhelming for users that are significantly more active than me- seamless reponsive design. I was sceptical about this at first, since i am primarly a desktop user, but in my opinion this works great without sacrificing style or usability in the desktop viewThe old-style smilies can be made working. The forum that i am a member of has quite a lot of old style smilies available.I am still thinking about suggesting to them to import a couple from here, but i have no idea about the required permissions...But anyway, as long as no migration away from SMF is planned, i have to agree that change for the sake of change is not something that should be considered. And i have to admit that i do not know what the next version of SMF can or cannot do.I just wish, as the majority of the users here i think, that the style of being a forum is not lost.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 09:51:58 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on April 27, 2021, 01:20:12 pmI suppose I wouldn't mind if the appearance or skin can be made to match this forum and in size onto the next without the white spaces, convert any fixed element to absolute or a setting, get rid of eye hurting dimming or any overlay stuff on dialogues and loading spinners/animations to a point where I am going to notice 'much difference and don't have to do any work hidng the above elements that annoys me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:59:49 am
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on April 27, 2021, 10:53:55 amCorrect, won't ever happen.I won't rule out moving to Xenforo though, but it would likely need some form of major prompting like something failing, or for good long term technical reasons.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 01:05:55 am
content: QuoteWhere 'datacenter burning down' clearly isn't anywhere near 'major'.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 01:45:04 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 28, 2021, 01:05:55 amI think Dave is referring to major failing in smf itself, not other stuff. It's not like SMF caused the datacenter fire....Hmm, actually wait a second...

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 04:42:36 am
content: Quote from: Whales on April 28, 2021, 01:45:04 amYou own me a coffee for that joke - I spurt all the coffee on my table...

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 06:03:38 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on April 04, 2020, 06:41:43 amI feel bad for the OP too.Unanimous agreement with what exactly? Changing to something else because it's not SMF, changing to discord or something else that the various posters like, or leaving it as it is because the new stuff is crap?Somebody else suggested there should be a poll. But this thread and all the polls I can recollect attract a very small number of responses largely selected from the vocal minority. And a very small minority at that. There are thousands of forum members who have not chimed in with their thoughts. Should they be assumed to be happy with the status quo? Or not?I agree with TomS. Some people do not know how to disagree and move on. That is why these threads devolve into the agreement of a few who discourage others voicing differing opinions and then they stay silent.A few years ago when I first started noticing this behavior I decided to see if there was anything in it and I extracted the names of posters and the number of times they posted in selected contentious threads. Long term members will know the ones I mean. One thing was consistent. You didn't have to go past the top ten posters to get past 50% of the thread. Often-times not even ten and a lot more than 50%. I'm sure some of them thought the world agreed with them too. I concluded those that disagreed mostly left the thread.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 07:16:55 am
content: Quote from: Whales on April 28, 2021, 01:45:04 amLOL, but I prefer the status quo over having 10 huge images auto-load each time I open a topic in "beginners"

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 08:54:39 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 27, 2021, 09:51:58 pmI understand where you are coming from. You are mentioning a couple of things that i also do not like about modern webdesign, but from what i experienced, Xenforo only uses these things in moderation, and in some cases i actually prefer it how they are doing stuff.I have to admit that my eyesight is not getting better. I rather like the larger default fonts of Xenforo and increased spacing.Whitespace on the sides can be adjusted, and the discussions of whether it is sensible or not to use the full width of the screen are as old as widescreen monitors are.I have a good comparison for this aspect, one forum that i am also active in has a narrower view, another that i am only occasionally visiting has a full width view.I personally prefer the narrower view, i find it easier to read. The full width view has enourmous amounts of wasted space, especially on shorter posts.Yes, the forum list, and the topic list as well are higher than here. You may reasonably see that as wasted space. But the separation works for me.Loading times indeed sometimes happen. Opening the notification panel sometimes takes a moment, as well as for some reason loading the smilie list. But none of these use full screen dimming or huge spinners, just a small loading animation. I don't think that i ever saw full screen dimming.Overlays are only used for attached pictures. True, they take a moment getting used to, but image handling in Xenforo works better than it does here.All said and done, i do not know what of these things are Xenforo defaults, what are plugins, and what are selfmade changes.Anyway, i sound like a salesman

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:18:12 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 28, 2021, 01:05:55 amWhy would it be?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:47:41 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on April 28, 2021, 06:03:38 amI don't. Trying to pre-empt and disqualify criticism by listing "grumpy users complaining" as one of the downsides in his original proposal did probably not set the best tone for this discussion.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:59:13 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on April 28, 2021, 08:54:39 amRegrettably, that sort of thing catches up with us :-(One thing I've found on one moderately-busy SMF-based forum is that the "Updated Topics" page also has a feed of newly-arrived questions down the side. That makes it an ideal base page, since as well as seeing if there's been an update to something in which one is involved one sometimes spots newly-active topics which one is able to help with.MarkMLl

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 10:04:48 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on April 28, 2021, 08:54:39 amI don't see how either of those points count towards using different forum software.1) If the fonts are too small, change the browser's zoom/text setting.2) If you prefer the narrower view, adjust the window size.I've put a user, who shall remain nameless, on my ignore list, because they keep adding unnecessary line breaks in their posts. Many other members and I, politely asked him to refrain from using unnecessary line breaks and to allow the forum to wrap the text, but he didn't listen, so I blocked him.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:04:11 am
content: " Dave and the members involved will never allow a move to discourse or any similar platform."That's a statement from someone who never tried discord, why not?Discord Only has advantages, whats is the dow side?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:51:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 28, 2021, 09:18:12 amTediously, technically it wouldn't, but humour often works by conflating stuff.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:04:45 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 28, 2021, 11:04:11 amWell many of the people at the Arduino forum don't like it, and they're obviously trying it, example -Quote

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on April 28, 2021, 11:04:11 amClearly you have NO clue at allDiscord searches and index's terribly within its own format and google all but ignores it - FAILDiscord sections become like Farcebook timelines and are IMPOSSIBLE to follow a technical focussed discussion on. Ever wonder why Yahoo groups more or less went the way of the Dodo? FAILDiscord SUCKS as can be witnessed by the complete lack on content on the EEVBlog option and the only one I have seen come close to working in the Electronics area is Jon Oxers Home Automation one as it is a very small tightly focussed niche group. Even this group is a shocker to try and follow an ongoing discussion and content gets lost.Any other FAILS for Discord needed?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:21:37 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on April 28, 2021, 12:10:32 pmActually, I think he has rather more than first appears. He is playing 'discourse' - "written or spoken communication or debate" - as mis-type in the original, against 'Discord' - the unlovely forum software - and noting that communication is good, so what is the downside of that?Sorry to spoil the joke by having to spell it out. Seems to be a distinct lack of a humour bone in this topic.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on April 28, 2021, 12:10:32 pmPrecisely.Who gives a tinker's cuss about how pretty it might be, if you can't use it easily and effectively forsubtle long-runningtechnical discussions, then it won't exist.Anythingremotelylike the Farcebook interface would be (pah! is) a disaster.Ditto other online forums that discourage multi-level quoting - they are fine for asking which button to press to floggle the ditz, but crap at any interesting discussion. Yes, I'm looking at you, stackexchange and edaboard.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 28, 2021, 12:21:37 pm"Discord" was mentioned and a question asked following a 'statement' FALSELY claiming only advantages. I see nothing of humor here at all.I have been around list and email type groups since the days of 9600 baud modems NONE of those groups exist now in any form and those that went to Yahoo Groups that were the more technically focussed discussion was a PITA.Want to see a disaster zone of repeated rubbish newbie topics head on over to Farcebook and try and follow say a 3D printer groups content

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 01:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 28, 2021, 12:21:37 pmI always get Discourse and Discord confused.I think Discourse is pretty horrible. Why anyone would move an existing working popular bbs style forum to Discourse is beyond me.Actually, it's ok for what it is as it's own thing, but as a replacement for a bbs style forum that's been around for generations, nope.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 03:56:36 pm
content: Here's another post (#1205) from the Arduino thread mentioned above:https://forum.arduino.cc/t/do-you-like-the-new-forum/847695/1204Quote

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 04:53:49 pm
content: Quote from: tunk on April 28, 2021, 03:56:36 pmThe arduino forum has a scroll bar to the right so it's not like there's endless scrolling but it would be nice if bookmarks of sort could be placed and would show up in the scroll bar.For example like placing notes to self that at post #256 there was this important thing the user said that you might want to check later.Maybe like a colored bubble on the scroll bar that would expand if you hovered your mouse over it, click on it to take you to the post.Perhaps add marks where it points out where other users replied to you or mentioned/quoted you in their post, i think this would add some useful functionality to the scroll bar.If anyone from the arduino forum is reading this and think it's a good idea you can post this idea there, i don't have an account.I still dislike the overall look, with no lines to separate sections i just find it confusing, but not something i couldn't get used to, yet still not something i'd feel comfortable using.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 05:15:07 pm
content: Just logged into the Android forum for the first time in a while...I actually feel ill.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 06:23:15 pm
content: This discourse on Discourse seems full of discord.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on April 28, 2021, 06:03:38 amI have a browser plug-in that keeps track of users and works like a naughty/nice list. So I know who I can engage and who to keep at arms length.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:56:37 pm
content: I greatly prefer SMFAlso, do you think consolidlidation of these forums is a good thing? I don't.Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pm

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 10:08:09 pm
content: Just thought of some stuff with the thread starter's list above:Quote from: ddavidebor on March 29, 2020, 02:59:35 pm1What about desktop users who don't want a"mobile experience"slapped on their desktops?2In what way?If it is endless scrolling or something like that where I can't track the page I am reading in the thread by page number then no good for me.3Would someone like to start a poll on that for the young audiences of this forum?4Faster website? How do we know that, at the moment it loads instantly for me especially on my old stuff.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:34:17 pm
content: QuoteThe page number is arbitrary though, depending on the number of posts per page you set. The default of 40 is pretty silly for being able to quickly jump to a specific post - 25 or 50 would have been better.On Discord, the scroll widget shows you the post number and total posts. It is beyond trivial to just push it up (or down) to the exact post number and there you are. I have to say that dissing Discord for not making you find posts via unworkable page numbers is pretty perverse - that bit works very well.And now you've got me playing with it, the quoting is good too. No longer a problem to just hit quote and include the entire unedited quote trail (which can sometime take up half a precious page) - just the first line is actually shown, but you can pop that open to the full thing with a click.And... on quotes, there's a link to any reply which actually get show right there, instead of 20 pages later in an isolated necro-post. Gosh, it's almost like actual threading!I am not keen on it, if only because of the fading in and out of the colour for no apparent reason, but it is not an unmitigated disaster if approach without the NIH or "it's change, therefore it's bad" minset. There are workable solutions to things that have been issues on previous forums, and some of them are even not bad solutions.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 12:44:07 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 28, 2021, 11:34:17 pmSo you mean it does have page numbers but the amount of posts on them can vary depending on how many are set to appear on one page or for whatever reason.I don't mind that as long as I can quickly jump by page number of something like what is already here rather than continuously scroll like with the lazy loading stuff I have seen recently but then one could argue that the search can cover that with finding things.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 02:44:48 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 28, 2021, 11:34:17 pmDiscord is simply a disaster zone for a multi topic technical forum. Even broken down into similar numbers of categories as here we would finish up with thousands of smashed threads over time.Please explain how discord will deal with and make sense of these numbers without becoming a pigs breakfast?

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 04:12:24 am
content: Quote from: drussell on April 26, 2021, 01:28:41 amPost back when you've tried to archive anything on an SMF site with wget.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 06:43:53 am
content: How is this thread still alive?!

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 06:47:13 am
content: Because it's the "we hate Discord" thread nowDave needs to update the title to avoid confusing the uninitiated.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 06:52:25 am
content: Quote from: magic on April 29, 2021, 06:47:13 amNo we don't hate Discord at all as a platform it is is fine for linear topics or casual banter and is just not suited as a forum substitute for the type of varied content we get here.In spite of the TEA thread being a ramble at the best of times the associated once a week Discord audio/typed chat session adds to it and if I could be bothered getting out of Bed early Sunday mornings local I would join in

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 07:32:55 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on April 29, 2021, 06:52:25 amYep 2 1/2hrs later here in NZ is a far more civilized hour.

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 07:57:03 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 28, 2021, 11:34:17 pmHowever, in this forum there's an "All" selector which loads all messages in a thread fairly quickly after which movement generates no further traffic. I'd put money on the bet that the initial delay generating the page is less than the time Discourse wastes reloading the page every few seconds.MarkMLl

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 07:59:09 am
content: Quote from: aandrew on April 29, 2021, 04:12:24 amAlready been discussed: it's marginally doable but painful, and shouldn't be necessary where management is competent.Keep up at the back there.MarkMLl

author: MarkMLl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 08:01:08 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on April 29, 2021, 06:43:53 amI restarted it after a year's nap to report that Arduino had just migrated from SMF to Discourse and the result was was widely disliked.MarkMLl

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:35:40 am
content: Quote from: MarkMLl on April 29, 2021, 08:01:08 amSuch hard-won real world experience is very valuable.Thanks for necroposting that information so that it isn't lost

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 10:39:11 am
content: Are you guys mistaking Discord for Discourse, or has the discussion shifted elsewhere?https://www.discourse.org/is nothttps://discord.com/Because if so there might be many goofs in this thread who don't even know what they're talking about, quite literally.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 03:29:37 pm
content: Yeah, I think I just did, and upset some Discord fanboy by accidentSorry, Discord fanboy

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 03:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 28, 2021, 06:23:15 pm... and surprisingly full of Discord too.