ST2830, ST2832, TH2830, TH2832 LCR Meters - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2023, 08:06:22 pm
content: Has anybody done an internal comparison between the TH2830 & TH2832?I'm curious if there's anything different between them besides the firmware.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2023, 10:00:42 pm
content: Are you hoping for a 200khz hack ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2023, 10:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 06, 2023, 10:00:42 pmWhaaaaat?!!?!?! How could you possibly imply something so preposterous???I'm hoping for a 200kHz "improvement" 😉😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2023, 01:54:34 am
content: Ooh, I just found this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-look-inside-th2832-(tonghui-lcr)/I guess I need to take my TH2830 apart again and take some photos. 🤔

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2023, 01:06:48 pm
content: Here's the main board. Which at first glance appears to be identical to@luudee's TH2832. Both also say TH2830 on the board, same version numbers also.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2023, 01:18:56 pm
content: Two more photos. I still don't see anything different standing out here.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2023, 01:45:20 pm
content: Here's the back. I still can't find any differences. So far, the only thing I found different at all was the designation for 5A recovery diodes, same thing though otherwise.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 09, 2023, 02:14:06 pm
content: Yeah, not seeing any obvious differences in the populated parts, and nothing unpopulated. Only headers seems to be for JTAG and selecting serial interface type.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2023, 05:25:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on June 09, 2023, 02:14:06 pmYeah, and I don't see any difference between what is and isn't populated or connected.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2023, 09:57:23 pm
content: Quotewhat differences do you expect to find ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2023, 01:57:30 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 09, 2023, 09:57:23 pmWell, I washopingto find no differences, and I'm glad it worked out that way. I thought theremiiightbe something in there separate to support the DC bias voltage source, but it doesn't appear separate.The only question now is how to get the TH2832 firmware on the TH2830.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2023, 07:20:47 pm
content: So you think with an update file from the TH2832 you will get 20Hz..200khz in 15025 steps(instead 50Hz..100khz in 34 steps), a dc bias adjustment(instead of none) and the ALC (automatic level control) circuit(insted of none)..Hard to believe but not impossible.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2023, 08:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 10, 2023, 07:20:47 pmWhy would that be hard to believe? If we can't find a difference in hardware, there's only one place left...Also, look at popular modern test gear:SDM3045X(4.5digits, 66,000 counts) identical hardware to SDM3055X-E (5.5 digits, 240,000 counts); Every modern scope with the "upgrades" and "options" etc.;AWGs from Siglent, UNI-T, etc. very often identical hardware within the same line, only separated by firmware or options or some other soft limitation.I'd say it's more believable than not. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2023, 10:25:59 pm
content: I would be happy for you if the TH2830 was simply a software-limited copy of the TH2832.If one follows the explanations of the Keysight impedance measurement "book", then with the underlying measurement principle (auto-balancing bridge), there is an invisible limit at about 100khz, from which the whole thing becomes more complicated and thus more expensive.It may of course be that Tonghui first "developed" the 200khz variant and then by means of the software to be able to offer a cheaper derivative.It would be a great thing for all TH2830 owners to get a better LCR through a firmware hack, no question.The device is updateable via the front USB, which is already a possibility.But since there is no firmware (at least I have not found at tonghui), another possibility would be to copy the contents of the chips.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2023, 01:44:23 am
content: I think you're probably right about them developing one, and then crippling it for the lower model. Oddly enough, both versions say TH2830 on the PCBs, not the other way around.Hopefully we can find the firmware. The chip copying method would probably be a little trickier.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2023, 07:36:03 am
content: Calling @tv84

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2023, 11:43:22 am
content: In addition to the JTAG connector, it looks like 2 SPI Flash chips, an EEPROM, and a FRAM are there on the PCB between the LPC1788 and the mains power filtering.I don't really know anything about how this unit works, but would assume that one or more of those chips is storing some device and frequency specific calibration data that might be tricky to create...Edit: and the Altera CPLD would contain its own programmed logic and additional flash memory contents that may different between model.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 02:14:05 pm
content: I'm hoping the "easy" way of just getting a copy of the TH2832 firmware is all we need to do. From a production standpoint, theycoulddo things differently for both models with identical hardware, but that ends up being more work. Especially since both are using the same PCBs and everything else. They would also have to keep track of variations on identically labeled boards, which wouldn't make sense.The simplest thing to do is supply a different firmware and a sticker for the front of the unit.You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 10:18:24 pm
content: QuoteI will only believe this when we know that they are really identical down to the component level, i.e. the same resistance and capacitance values are present everywhere.This is not a problem from a production point of view, to equip the pick-and-place machines according to the models.Ludee would have to make better pictures of his TH2832...

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 10:54:49 pm
content: If they are populated with different components, then I would expect some kind of production (manual) marking on the PCB to indicate that - like some silkscreen checkboxes. Or at least some unpopulated components.Of course some different valued capacitors could also affect oscillator/filtering operations and be hard to notice, but different firmware/gateware/calibration data is more likely.Is there any further markings in the "text box" with the PCB revision etc hidden under the mains input jack?Do any of the information screens show firmware revision, and if so what else do they show?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 11:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on June 12, 2023, 10:54:49 pmI agree. The interesting stuff happens in the digital domain where the Altera chip likely does the signal generation & acquisition and the LPC1788 microcontroller uses software to do the heavy lifting. There really is no need for the hardware to be different at all. And maybe the software is the same as well as it is much easier to have a single firmware image for all devices. So in the end the difference may be a component strapping (somewhere around the LPC1788) or a setting in the FRAM / flash.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 12:20:39 pm
content: Firmware version is shown on startup. Both of our meters say ver1.0 but have different copyright dates. I assume the copyright date is reference to the firmware.Both main boards show "TH2830-MAIN VER1.9..."

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 12:46:27 pm
content: Time to dump the contents of the flashes and (if possible) the LPC1788... Or find firmwage images so these can be compared.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 12:55:50 pm
content: their chinees site seem to give more files, haven't seen a fw upgrade

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 01:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 13, 2023, 12:46:27 pmI don't know how to do that.I do have a TH2830 hex firmware file. I haven't had any luck finding the TH2832 firmware yet to compare them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 01:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 13, 2023, 01:11:49 pmCan you post (or provide a link to) the firmware you have so people can analyse it?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 11:14:55 pm
content: I'll just attach this random hex file here and take no responsibility for whatever may or may not happen with it. 😇

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:45:22 pm
content: Anybody out there with a TH2832 that has received or could request a firmware file?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 05:04:56 pm
content: Sure enough it mentions TH2830 and TH2832 as text. It shouldn't be super hard to figure out what is going on and see what selects the operating mode.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 07:50:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 05:04:56 pmIt also mentions a bunch of others. Here's line 215's plain text:QuoteIt's interesting that they also mention the other branded versions like the ST2830. I don't know how to do anything useful with this information though. If we had a TH2832 firmware file to compare with, that would be much easier.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 01:56:20 pm
content: Here'stotallyrandom thought.If you're looking for an awesome lab grade LCR meter, the 2830 or 2832 are both great devices. The hardware and build quality are well done.However, I've had two very different experiences when it comes to support and communication. Tonghui's support was slow, if they responded at all (and they usually did not). They also ignored any requests for firmware of either version, including the version I already have with their name on it. On the other hand, Sourcetronic got back within 1 business day every time I emailed them, and they responded to my first request for the firmware,with the firmware. What I'm saying is, if you have the choice between purchasing the ST2832 or TH2832, I would get the Sourcetronic version without hesitation. You can simply expect better support.On atotallyunrelated note, see the random file attached. 😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 03:03:38 pm
content: My first experiment was an expected successful fail. 😉When the LCR first starts up, hold down the TRIG button to enter setup.I renamed the firmware file as CURRENTMODEL.SEC (th2830.sec), and loaded it on a USB stick inserted on the front of the meter.Select option A: for Firmware Update:And, sadly, as expected, it shows the "Wrong Firmware!" warning I copied from the hex code above:To revert it back, I renamed the original th2830.sec file with the "other" model's number, and that restored my TH2830 back to normal.I'm guessing we might find success if somebody can figure out the hardware IDs inside the firmware.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 09:06:11 pm
content: Can you also get the ST2830 firmware?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 09:41:33 pm
content: Ah, not bad thought...Could ask sourcetronic if there is firmware for our ST2830 avaible*...*)Asked them for a service manual..no way.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 11:54:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 26, 2023, 09:06:11 pmOnce again, the ST people win. I just asked and they sent it. Weird.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 11:55:03 am
content: Wow

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 12:00:58 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 27, 2023, 11:55:03 amYeah. Not only that, the ST firmware loads no problem on my TH unit. I renamed the st prefix to th, and then updated the firmware. Still 2830, but doesn't say Tonghui anymore lol.So it looks like we can probably ignore the th firmware, and just focus on the st stuff.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 01:47:45 pm
content: It's pretty weird that all the firmwares say ver1.0 with different dates:TH2830 2021-10-14TH2832 2020-01-13ST2830 2020-04-16ST2832 2019-04-23

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 02:11:10 pm
content: And, somewhat conspiracy theory, the ones for the larger models are older, which could indicate that the 2830s are actually limited only by the software.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 02:13:48 pm
content: Good point! Where's my tin foil hat?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 07:19:04 pm
content: Can somebody else with a 2830 and somebody with a 2832 check what hardware version shows on the firmware upgrade screen? I'm just curious.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 08:26:48 pm
content: ST2830 ?No problem, tomorrow...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 09:27:24 pm
content: Firmware looks like some kind of archive. The first 24 bytes are some kind of header which may contain a length. After that, there is a typical Cortex Mx firmware image with the first 4 bytes containing the stack pointer (in the LPC1788's SRAM) and the reset vector. So if you load this into a debugger which can find how texts are referenced, it should be easy to find out how the model type is being determined. Flash / code read protection seems to be disabled (not used) so you should be able to attached a debugger to the JTAG pins and read the memory content & step through the code.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 11:13:48 pm
content: Anybody with tools and skills to do that? I might have a debugger, but I've never tried that before (I've only used it for programming).One thing to note (useful or not, I dunno) is that the meter accepts whatever ID you want, but that doesn't make the firmware work.For example, I flashed TH2830 model to ST2830 firmware (rename ST2830.ext to TH2830.ext), now I have to use an ST2830 filename to change to anything else. ST2830 firmware works fine. If I rename ST2832.ext to ST2830.ext, that will flash but give the "Wrong Firmware!" warning. To flash it to something else, the new firmware file has to be named ST2832.ext.Note: ext = .sec

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 05:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 27, 2023, 08:26:48 pmHere it is..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 05:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 28, 2023, 05:35:56 pmInteresting. Ours have different hardware version numbers, but we're both running the same firmware now. So that's cool.Do you know how to do what@nctnicowas asking?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 06:27:53 pm
content: Hi,QuoteIn these times I am not surprised, due to the ongoing component shortage/obsolescence many manufacturers have to change parts of their installed hardware to be able to deliver, so for example Siglent Scopes.QuoteOnly partially, this is an area where I am still learning.I had bought such a debugger / programmer tool to flash the Uni-T current clamp, also worked.With this, the readout should also go, provided that the tool recognizes the controller type and supports.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 07:22:33 pm
content: I had a look again on one of your pictures, with a LPC1788 and the EPM570 on board.From my "halfknowledge" point of view you will have to re-program both to get a TH2832 model.(Or maybe re-programming the mcu is enough, while the CPLD leave untouched).and you need a TH2832 owner..If there´s no read/write protection enabled, reading out the files and comparing them with the files of the 2830 MCU/CPLD.Or just re-programm it...Here two links..https://www.engineersgarage.com/getting-started-with-the-arm-cortex-m3-lpc1768-part-1-21/It shows you at least what you need to handle these chips.At work we´re using PLDs and µCs for our control electronics for our inverter/converter.Maybe the forum member ludee could read out the files from his TH2832, that would help a lot.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 08:34:14 pm
content: First step is to seperate the firmware images into seperate files (shouldn't be hard), load these into a debugger for analysis and look at difference in usage of text. The 2830 firmware doesn't seem to have the wrong firmware message so the spot where that is referenced is the place to start looking. You'd need a fancy debugger that can do analysis like IDA or a free alternative that supports the ARM thumb2 (IIRC) instruction set. Note that debuggers come in two varieties: the ones that are intended to debug known code (like GDB) and the ones that are intended for reverse engineering (like IDA).It looks like the firmware image has 3 chunks and these are seperated by a header containing a text string 'B9FZI'

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 08:50:14 pm
content: What do you think about simply overwriting the contents of the chips with the ones from a 2832 ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 09:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 28, 2023, 08:50:14 pmI think the device ID is in the external FRAM. I think the firmware consists of 3 parts: the LPC1788 firmware, some kind of look-up table that goes into the flash and the FPGA image.In other words: you will not be overwriting the device ID with overwriting the contents of the chips. I'm quite sure the firmware update process already takes care of that. We need to call in forum member tv84 to take a look.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 10:02:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 28, 2023, 09:23:28 pmHe has...What is that makes these devices so special?Just loading with a totally random address, we can see plenty of code (ARM little endian). Don't know what you're trying to accomplish but Nico's inference to read the FRAM (if it has one) seems the best way.Edit: Added a picture (code graph) that show the different models involved... looks like there are lots of them.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 11:03:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 28, 2023, 08:34:14 pmThat only appears in the 2830 firmware. Did you find something similar in the 2832?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 11:10:04 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 28, 2023, 10:02:05 pm😇I dunno, they're well made I guess? 😉The goal is to get the features being blocked by the firmware; primarily an increase in frequency range, and a DC bias voltage function.It is funny how many models are mentioned. Even in the plain text many are listed:TH2830N TH2832X ST2832X TH2830L TH2832 ST2832 SM6024 eWK6302BQ TH7832 9216B JDI1022 TH7832A AMM3046 LCR2200 LN2020 TH2831 ST2831 M2831B XTD4510 DHK6200 TX6200 AMM3044 TH2830 ST2830 SM6023 DHK6100 JCX860 TX6100 TH7830 TH2816D OCT1010 TH2830HY LCR2100The TECPEL LCR-2100 looks like another 2830 clone, currently $700 on Amazon.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 11:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 28, 2023, 11:03:50 pmI see it in all firmware files... I = letter I, not number!BTW: I see the LPC1788 also has an internal EEPROM that may also hold information about the model.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 12:25:22 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 28, 2023, 11:18:11 pmOops, my bad. WinMerge is goofy on the search function sometimes (even thought it was really a PEBKAC error). 😉

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 08:56:53 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 28, 2023, 10:02:05 pmThese are nice LCR meters for a reasonable price.Judging from your call-graph, it seems there is a value stored somewhere that says which model it is and after that some kind of text comparison is made. It would be nice to figure out where this is stored and maybe how the model type is set.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 04:15:24 pm
content: Silly question,Which program is used to generate this information from the previously posted hex file ?I would also like to have a look at it.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 04:40:09 pm
content: Ida dissasembler or ghidra ...some free, some cost a fortune lollhttps://mohamad-wael.medium.com/best-microsoft-windows-disassemblers-and-decompilers-6fdfbf9990de

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 04:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 29, 2023, 08:56:53 amThat seems likely, but it's interesting that there's nothing that blocks use of the same level firmware from different branding. My TH2830 is currently running the ST2830 firmware. It appears they only care about the 2830 part.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 04:45:59 pm
content: It looks like the model information is a model ID number (which may be used at other locations in the firmware as well to determine the abilities of the hardware) AND a text with the model number. Your experiment to load different firmware likely failed due to the model ID number being wrong.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 29, 2023, 04:45:59 pmIf we can figure out what the reference model ID numbers are for both devices, maybe we can modify the firmware to allow the 2832 fw on the 2830?

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 29, 2023, 04:45:59 pmYou may be correct although from what I conclude from the "call-graph" it seems the decision flag is the model name. But, to be honest, I didn't think much about it.And, it seems that there are plenty of model names that end up in the same few "real" models.If the thing has a FRAM, please dump the FRAM.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 06:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 29, 2023, 05:16:23 pmNot really. The 2nd check is just for the right model name. At the top of the graph the decision goes into 3 columns for the 3 different base models (2830, 2831 and 2832). After that decision, there is a text comparison as a 2nd check.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 08:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 29, 2023, 06:26:39 pmYou're right. So, it's something like this:Model_byte (in hex):Ax- TH2830 / ST2830 / SM6023 / DHK6100 / JCX860 / TX6100 / TH7830 / TH2816D / OCT1010 / TH2830HYBx- TH2831 / ST2831 / M2831B / XTD4510 / DHK6200 / TX6200 / AMM3044Cx- TH2832 / ST2832 / SM6024 / eWK6302BQ / TH7832 / 9216B / JDI1022 / TH7832A / AMM3046Dx- TH2830LEx- TH2832X / ST2832XFx- TH2830NIf these combinations don't match, the FW will show "Wrong Firmware!" msg.So now you can do some FRAM/EEPROM analysis...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 09:08:18 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 29, 2023, 08:19:50 pmThat sounds like it's a simple function in the firmware to halt loading if the combination doesn't match. Is that correct? Can we defeat that in the firmware? For example: firmware says 2832, but right now the model byte says Ax, so it says wrong firmware. Can we change the definition of Ax to match 2832?

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 09:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 29, 2023, 09:08:18 pmI can but can you flash it without a programmer? (and hope that it doesn't verify any checksum while running...)Edit: Attached is the FW with A0 and C0 bytes swapped, as requested. Have no idea if that will work. In logic terms I would say that you should be already running this precise patched version in order to accept a... patched version.Edit2: The file was wrong! A correct one is in a following msg.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 09:42:14 pm
content: I'm pretty sure that it will end up as 'Wrong firmware'. You'd need to change the text that is being tested as well. If all the tests for the right model name fail, the graph goes into 'Wrong firmware'.What puzzles me is why the firmware doesn't run on Josh' ST2830 while it is supposed to support that model. This seems to suggest that the model name might be derived from the firmware file that is being loaded. Maybe, just maybe changing the firmware filename to ST2832 already makes the file work as the model ID and model name now match. But I doubt the features of the ST2832 are enabled. I don't see any signs of the model ID being used to set a flag for the functionality in the call graph that TV84 has posted.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 09:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 29, 2023, 09:18:42 pmUnfortunately no, that didn't work. It didn't get past 5%, so it seems it fails some kind of precheck.Renaming ST2832 to ST2830 will allow it to fully flash the stock firmware, it's when you try to run the meter that it fails after that.Edit: Attached is two screenshots comparing the beginning of the stock fw files, and the modified one. There's something missing with the modified version.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 10:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 29, 2023, 09:42:14 pmThe firmware files aren't the same though. For whatever reason, the 2830 fw file is actually 2k larger than the 2832. I think (am guessing) the fw itself contains what we need for those functions to work. They don't need to flag for individual functions if the fw won't let you get past startup.My hardware model is the TH2830, currently being run as an ST2830.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 06:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 29, 2023, 09:18:42 pmAre those swapped in the hex file, or did you decompile / recompile?On a quick search A0 (41 30) appears in both hex files exactly 12 times. C0 (43 30) appears in 2830 two times, and in 2832 seven times.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 30, 2023, 06:18:29 pmDo a binary comparison between the files and you'll understand what I did. I just swapped the ones involved in that call-graph shown. Just as a proof-of-concept with no deep analysis behind.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 30, 2023, 09:16:13 pmI did a binary comparison in a hex editor (WinMerge), and the files are significantly different. Attached is a partial comparison of the patched fw and the stock fw (left side is stock, right side is patched).Am I supposed to compare them a different way?

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:45:02 pm
content: Sorry, Josh.I messed up big!That's what results when doing things in a hurry.This is the correct patched file (with A0 and C0 swapped). Try this one.Edit: This file had incorrect checksums. See my following messages where I share this file with correct checksums.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:18:31 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 30, 2023, 09:45:02 pmNo worries my friend, I always appreciate your help!However, are you sure that's the right file? It appears to be identical to the ST2832 stock file? I mapped the location of those references, and they are still the same:2830 A0 (41 30) Appears:000010005ba001059003b57003b5f004e6c00525a00579c00ecd201878501a36401bdba02830 C0 (43 30) Appears:08217019b2702832 A0 (41 30) Appears:0000100058e000fb0003af5003afc004dc00056b800779f00ec4f01870301a2e101bd3702832 C0 (43 30) Appears:003fc00058f00075c0007700081940175c7019aa40Edit: okay, something is different, the update failed instead of finishing and saying wrong firmware. The A0s were all the same, I'll check the C0s. Edit again: C0 also at the same lines. I didn't see anything different otherwise, so I don't know why it failed. 🤷

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 12:19:04 am
content: @Josh: you are searching for text but what tv84 has altered is a single byte with the hexadecimal representation of an 8 bit number. 0xC0 = C0 (hex) = 1100000 (binary) = 192 (decimal)But since you can't load a modified firmware, it looks like there is a checksum that is applied to the firmware chunks (which seems a pretty basic thing to do in order to make sure the firmware file hasn't been corrupted).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 03:01:08 am
content: Considering that there's no other file, wouldn't the checksum value also need to be supplied by the firmware?

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 01:16:12 pm
content: Looking at the code, it's easily visible that the "HW Version" is what I called, in my previous call-graph, the "Model Flag".So your HW Version is 0xA7 which means it's a:Ax - TH2830 / ST2830 / SM6023 / DHK6100 / JCX860 / TX6100 / TH7830 / TH2816D / OCT1010 / TH2830HY

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 01:51:16 pm
content: Guys,sorry, I have been very busy lately with work ...But I would like to help, I have the TH2832 ...What do you need ?Cheers,luudee

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 02:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 01, 2023, 01:51:16 pmShow me your HW version screen. And, if possible, share any FW file you might have updated with.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 02:14:12 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 01:16:12 pmThat makes sense. And with@Martin72's being A6, it's the same series. It appears that's the thing we need to figure out how to change.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 02:19:11 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 02:10:13 pmHi TV84,I think Josh already posted it, but here it is again.I don't have any firmware, it's on my to-do list to ping the manufacturer ...Cheers,luudee

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 02:28:38 pm
content: Thanks Josh for pointing out the TRIG setup ...luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 02:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 01, 2023, 02:19:11 pmGood luck with that. If they actually have something newer than what you have, and miraculously share it, please share it here too. 😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 02:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 02:39:02 pmThank you. I tried it, unfortunately it loops between 5 and 10% before failing. That's what usually happens when they fail.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 03:05:48 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 03:03:39 pmI'll try to see if I can get a dump in the next few days.luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 03:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 03:03:39 pmThere's a C64TA FRAM, I think another chip says 45db321e, I think the 74hct138d is CMOS. I'll pop it back open and get a clearer image of that section.Can you tell us how to get the info from the chips?

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 03:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 01, 2023, 03:23:53 pmHi Josh,thats not trivial. I just took a quick look at the C64, thats a I2C FRAM, 8KB (which is very small).I suspect this is being used to save configuration and other data.The 74hct138 is a CMOS decoder and irrelevant.I have a J-Link Pro, if it can read the FRAM I will get the contents.The other FLASH chip someone mentioned is SPI, so that I should be able to read as well.All I need is time ;-)Cheers,luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 03:50:55 pm
content: Here's that section of chips:

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 01, 2023, 03:50:55 pmThank you Josh.So, the memories are:1 x B85RC64TA, 8KB, I2C1 x Atmel/Microchip AT24C512 (64KB EEPROM), I2C2 x Adesto 45DB321E, 32Mb "Data Flash", SPII think I should be able to dump all of them ....Cheers,luudee

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:33:34 pm
content: Maybe someone can try patching out the version checking routine, it's possibly easier than digging into the EEPROM which may need open box and desoldering.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 06:40:42 pm
content: This is the mapping of both files Josh shared (all based in their header - the first 24 bytes):Code:ST2830 FW:Header: 41424344645E0700A03E1400Signature: "ABCD" (MAGIC OK)Block1 Size: 00075E64 [00000018-00075E7B]Checksum Blocks1: 3AF4 [00075E7C-0007996F]Block2 Size: 00143EA0 [00079970-001BD80F]Checksum Blocks2: A1F5 [001BD810-001C7A04]ST2832 FW:Header: 4142434478560700A03E1400Signature: "ABCD" (MAGIC OK)Block1 Size: 00075678 [00000018-0007568F]Checksum Blocks1: 3AB4 [00075690-00079143]Block2 Size: 00143EA0 [00079144-001BCFE3]Checksum Blocks2: A1F5 [001BCFE4-001C71D8]

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 06:42:34 pm
content: Yeah. One certainly need to reverse the checksum algo to make the patched firmware file accepted in the upgrade routine. binwalk finds only SHA256 constants in the firmware package, so hopefully no asymmetric crypto.>>>Oops, I missed that you are already trying that few posts ago.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 06:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 06:40:42 pmI don't know if it will help or not, but there was a 3rd file earlier as well, for the TH2830 fw.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 07:17:40 pm
content: Now that I know how to calculate the FW Blocks checksums, tell me for what do we need this.As a PoC I've corrected the checksum for the FW I patched a few nights ago so that you can test.Edit: Added patched FW with correct checksums (I think).Edit2: For the FW, gohere.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 07:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 07:17:40 pmYou, you're good you!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 07:53:30 pm
content: I haven't tried the DC bias yet, but check it out...@tv84wins again! 🏆

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 08:01:00 pm
content: Bias also confirmed! I'm very happy the numeric keypad works for that, otherwise the +/- button moves in mV lol.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 08:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 01, 2023, 07:50:56 pmEven I am amazed! My first hint was good and the only thing missing was the checksum correction. Nice!Show us a picture of the "CMOS Setup" upgrade screen where we can see the Hardware Version to see if it still is A07.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 08:27:15 pm
content: Yup, hw ID is still the same.Upon startup with the new firmware, my customizations like compensation, and measurement data were all reset.I redid them all, except for some reason short compensation fails. DCR short worked though. 🤷I might try reflashing again and see if that changes anything. I'll also test some of my reference capacitors to see if the cal changed at all.Anybody else want to test this fw and see if short compensation works?Maybe somebody with a "real" 2832 can try the stock version and see if there's an issue with it or not.Thanks,Josh

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 08:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 01, 2023, 08:27:15 pmSO, everything as expected. Your EEPROM/FRAM/whatever still has a HW version A7 but with that patched ST2832 FW, the Ax units behave as Cx units.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 09:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 08:41:54 pmYes, unfortunately, something else is wrong. I can't complete short correction (open does complete). However, if I activate the frequency function in the correction menu, I can compensate for specific frequencies. 20Hz to about 24Hz works (though starts to get odd), then 25Hz through 1.5kHz give odd numbers.For example:25Hz short = 216.839kΩ30Hz short = 130.555kΩ50Hz short = 342.603kΩ2kHz short = -168.641Ω100Hz short = 178.500kΩ200Hz short = 851.517kΩ500Hz short = 19.5998MΩ2.50kHz short = -213.862ΩAfter that, it gets pretty normal:2.51kHz short = 0.00915Ω3.00kHz short = 0.00058Ω

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 09:50:13 pm
content: Ummmm... Nevermind?I reflashed ST2832 again, screwed around a lot more, and now it all works. 🤷I think this fw has too many options or something. I was able to complete all the correction, and test high value caps again. 🤦So I guess we're all good then!

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 09:52:42 pm
content: Maybe it needed a flash with 2832 settings already in...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 10:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 09:52:42 pmYeah, that's the ticket, yeah!I'm like 80% sure it was a PEBKAC error. The 2832 fw has a lot more options, and ranges for things I guess. Though I don't know why I couldn't do short correction regardless before changing any settings.I changed the signal source impedance from the default 100 to 30Ω. I also experimented with the Range option on the test screen. I've never played with that, I don't know if it was changeable in the 2830. The pdf says Range is only Auto, Hold, but clearly this version has more, unless that's a different range option. 🙄 Or maybe the ST firmware is fancier than the TH firmware? Or, again, me confusing something.Anyway, I dunno if I need to have it recalibrated or not, it's pretty close for the test caps I tried. I'm assuming I need to read a different manual now.Comparison:2830 ref:4.69238nF, 4.64197Ω esr (Range Auto?)925.025uF, 0.02938Ω esr2.16287mF, 0.02186Ω esr2832:4.68818nF, 10.8833Ω esr (Range 10Ω? Or 30Ω, I forget)929.669uF, 0.02645Ω esr2.16549mF, 0.01554Ω esr

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 11:28:14 pm
content: Been following this, nice work tv84 and JoshWere you able to get 200KHz? Also down to 20Hz?The calibration is questionable, I guess you could make some measurements with the 2832 enabled, then revert back to the 2830 and see if they agree. You have a SMD fixture like we have, that would be a good way to do the capacitor comparisons, some quality COG/NPO caps might be worthwhile, even some good 0.1% low TC chip resistors. The Tonghui supplied Kelvin clips are pretty good, altho likely more chance of variability than the SMD fixture for caps.One thing that just occurred is if you should do a recalibration of the Open and Short if you change back to the 2830 to verify a given set of measurements. Since apparently there isn't any physical changes, leaving the Short/Open cal alone might give a more "repeatable" result between firmware changes?Anyway, nice safe crackingBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 12:38:24 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 01, 2023, 11:28:14 pmThat was mostly tv84's skill, nctnico's insight, and me willing to screw my meter up. 😉QuoteYes, full range in tiny steps if you want. I posted the 20Hz/20kHz screenshots previously. Also the DC bias voltage, and the DCR test voltage is also adjustable now. Instead of DCR test voltage being stuck at 1V, it can be anywhere from 50mV to 2V.QuoteI do like the idea of getting use out of the SMD fixture. However, it is mildly tedious switching back and forth between firmwares because all of the memory based settings are lost when switching between the two models.My guess is that the short/open cal will also be lost, but I can do a test before and after running the corrections on the 2nd fw. My other guess is thatifmy cal data was lost, it likely won't exist for either fw anymore. I'll see how accurately those SMD toys test, and also compare with my ST42.I added stuff for testing to my Mouser cart:Edit: My previous cap tests weren't with the kelvin leads, I used the 26048A fixture. However, none of them were precision caps, and I kept them in a closed zip lock bag, so I assume not ideal.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 01:39:34 am
content: Oops, forgot about Nick, so thanks to Nick as wellThink a 1206 or 0805 NPO/COG caps of 1000, 100 and 10pF might be good for some verification between firmware changes. Polystyrene & Mica are another very stable capacitor type, if you can find some (Surplus Sales Nebraska).Anyway, well done by you, tv84 and NickBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 01:58:33 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 02, 2023, 01:39:34 amAnd Rudi too for that matter. Without his photos and stuff, this likely wouldn't have happened at all.QuoteI have polystyrene and mica caps. I updated my mouser cart with more SMD crap. 😉

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 02:10:43 am
content: Ok, thanks to Rudi tooAnother possible issue could be, does the TH2830 have factory calibration parameters for the "extra" frequency ranges that come with the TH2832?Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 02:38:13 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 02, 2023, 02:10:43 amNo idea. That was my initial concern when I was having issues with the new firmware, but that was likely just me having too many settings to mess with. I'll test stuff in different ranges and see what it looks like. Obviously certain things only work in certain ranges, so I'll have to figure that out too.I don't know at what point they do the calibration in production. It's possible that they precalibrate before the final model is determined, but I don't know how likely that is.The reason I had no doubt this would work is because most modern test equipment seems to be manufactured with a "highest possible profit margin" mentality. What separates one manufacturer from another is whether they also care at all about quality (which this manufacturer clearly does). That means the least variation between device versions as possible (avoid hardware changes if possible), with firmware crippling the "lesser" models being the most obvious choice to keep costs down. It's really smart, considering all they needed to differentiate one device from another was a sticker on the faceplate. I would also bet that the device IDs that separate any of these can be programmed via serial over USB on the back panel to keep it simple.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 03:12:39 am
content: Our TH2830 came with a 6 page test cal report that was signed by the test tek & dated. It included all the measurement parameters including the range, reference device value, acceptance range, and actual measurements. The frequency range was just 100, 1K, 10K & 100KHz tho. There were 5 signal levels, 10 resistance ranges from 1 to 100K ohms, 7 capacitance ranges from 100pF to 100uF, at all the frequencies indicated, also DCR and Inductance ranges.There is a paragraphC. DC Bias Level: ()indicated, so likely the same test procedure for the 2832, maybe with the added frequency ranges.Anyway, all toll, 98 measurements recorded, indeed very comprehensive test data!!Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 04:05:40 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 02, 2023, 03:12:39 amHa! Mine didn't come with anything but a "calibration certificate void if removed" sticker on the back...which I removed immediately. 🤣I know it's not good enough for actual calibration, but I connected probe to probe with the SDM3055X-E and the bias voltage was accurate.If you were going to get it recalibrated, where would you send it?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 08:22:15 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 02, 2023, 03:12:39 amHmmm...I would have to take a look at the Cal. reports from our ST2830 to see if this was done there in the same way for all areas.In any case, your report was not created by Tonghui itself, they don't take that much trouble...

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 08:57:04 am
content: Regarding certificates, my unit also came with a 6 page calibration certificate ...first two pages attached ...luudee

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 01:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 02, 2023, 08:22:15 amSee below!! It came directly from Changzhou Tonghui Electronic Company Limited!! Even has a 7 digit document number, most comprehensive certificate of performance document we've come across.Even include details on each reference used, which they use at least 30 individual reference devices. For example the 1nF reference @ 100KHz is 1.00060nF with DF 0.00010, and measured 1.00035nF, DF 0.00025, or @ 1KHz the reference 10.0100uF, DF 0.00370 measured 10.0091uF, DF 0.00370.We're sure this is automated, but well done Tonghui for provided such detail, certainly builds one's confidence in this instrument's overall quality, and Tonghui instruments in generalBest,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 01:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 02, 2023, 08:57:04 amYep, that's the one we received, same test tek also!! Did your TH2832 have the capacitance measurements conducted at 200KHz?Edit: Might be interesting to see how well these instruments did during factory verification. Here's the results from our instrument.Best,

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 01:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 02, 2023, 04:05:40 amProbably the usual Cal Labs here in US. Expect a hefty bill tho, detailed calibration, over these ranges, will be involved and expensive for sure.BTW one of the reasons we recommended the TH2830 was the overall quality of this fine instrument. When we did our research a few years back, we ended up selecting this instrument based upon performance/cost and reliable/repeatable measurement expectations, and it has not disappointedBest,

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 02:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 02, 2023, 01:11:39 pmExceptions confirm the rule..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 03:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 02, 2023, 08:57:04 amCould you please share more pages? I'd like to see what was tested in different ranges so I can do similar tests.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 03:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 02, 2023, 02:47:14 pmWhat exceptions? I'm the only one here that didn't get cal sheets from them, so I think that makes mine the exception. 😉Actually, I'm curious to see what your ST cal sheet looks like. Did TH do the cal before sending to ST, or did ST do the cal after receiving it?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 03:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 02, 2023, 01:24:54 pmI've never sent anything for cal before, so I have no idea who is trustworthy. What is hefty? Over $200? More?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 03:27:09 pm
content: QuoteI'll have to check the archives to see if there was a calibration record.We have had the device calibrated externally since 2021, because otherwise we would not be allowed to use it.Of course, it would have been great if we had also had such a protocol, which ludee and mawyatt had received, because then you can make a nice comparison...internal vs external according to ISO and DakkS standards.I'll check tomorrow how many protocols are stored in our database.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 04:12:14 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 01, 2023, 08:41:54 pmUnfortunately, there's a bug/flaw in the patched firmware. Normally the meter remembers the last state of the device. For example, which func mode (Ls-Rs, Cs-Rs, etc.), speed, etc. With the patched fw, that state is lost after power cycling the meter.I downgraded to the stock st2830 fw, and set func, speed (and avg), Vm/Im to on, and restarted. It remembered everything as expected.Upgraded back to st2832patched fw, and those settings were lost. Redid those settings, and power cycled. All lost again.Did compensating for the checksum require modifying something else? Or any other idea why this is happening?Thanks,Josh

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 02, 2023, 04:12:14 pmThe patch doesn't go there near. Maybe the info is stored as ST2830 (Ax) and when the software tries to retrieve it as ST2832, it fails.That's why I say that a direct change in the FRAM/whatever from Ax to Cx would make all good without FW patchings.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:29:23 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 02, 2023, 03:20:21 pmA good Cal lab likely charges well over $200/hr, so would expect well over $200 charge.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 02, 2023, 05:10:03 pmDid you swap any calls between Ax and Cx? If so, what about modding the fw so that Cx works on Ax and the other references to Ax are left alone? In other words, only change references to Cx, and leave the Ax stuff unchanged?I think Rudi can get a memory dump of his 2832.What about my theory about setting the ID over SCPI or USB or RS-232C? Unfortunately, I don't know jack about SCPI stuff.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:37:47 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 02, 2023, 05:29:23 pmHmmm. No thanks! 🤣🤣🤣Looks like I'll calibrate it myself and call that good enough. I don't need certification, I just need it to be at least as accurate as my other meters.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:43:50 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 02, 2023, 05:36:10 pmNo change. That is Hollywood stuff...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 02, 2023, 05:43:50 pmCrap, Hollywood's still on strike too, so they're not going to help. 😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 06:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 02, 2023, 05:10:03 pmDid the patch only modify the header, or were there multiple instances that you needed to change? I can't think of a reason why the version number would need to be referenced for stored data.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 08:49:03 pm
content: This is an older thread, but it has an eeprom dump (reply 12) from one of tonghui's handheld meters:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tonghui-th2822-lcr-meter-review-teardown-and-possible-hacking/I don't know if that helps us or not, maybe it will show something useful.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 08:57:30 pm
content: Depending on the size you won´t have to desolder the eeprom, with luck.I used a SOIC-8 clip for reading out/programming the eeprom of my uni-t current clamp.https://www.adafruit.com/product/5315

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 02:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 02, 2023, 08:57:30 pmI don't have any intent to desolder anything on this. I have a sneaking suspicion it will wind up being easier than expected. We'll see though. Hopefully Rudi is able to dump enough data.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 03:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 03, 2023, 02:33:34 pmI have dumps of the I2C EEPROMS (the B85RC64TA, and the AT24C512)I did not dump the two Adesto 45DB321E SPI Flashes because TV84 told me he did not need those anymore ...Now my unit is back in my rack, which is a huge pia to pull out ... it's not trivial ....I will dump the Adesto FLASH's if that is absolutely necessary.The question really is: Who will decode the Adesto dumps ?BTW: There is no need to de-solder the FLASH chips if you know what you are doing ;-)Cheers,luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 03:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 03, 2023, 03:39:39 pmAwesome, thank you! Can you post them here, or are they too big?QuoteWhat kind of rack? Standard 19" or something smaller? I want to make a narrow rack for my bench gear.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 09:24:31 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 02, 2023, 03:27:09 pmFound two, the last from May2023.After removing names and other sensitive data I´ll upload it here.A little disappointment is that they´re using testfrequencies up to 10khz max.But they will have their reasons to do so I guess.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 03:38:26 am
content: Here are the dumps of the I2C EEPROMS (the B85RC64TA, and the AT24C512)They should be exactly 8K and 64K bytes.luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 07:00:42 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 01, 2023, 11:28:14 pmWhat do you consider low TC? There's a pretty huge range available. I'd like to get the best option without paying too much per resistor.Is 25ppm/C good enough? I have some in my cart that range from 5ppm to 25ppm/C.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 07:35:32 pm
content: What is the spec of the LCR meter? If you want some calibration worthy standards then get parts that are 10 times better. In some designs I use 0.01% 2ppm SMT resistors as references (which are calibrated using a 6.5 digit DMM later on). These resistors are like 15 euro each from Mouser IIRC.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 08:10:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 04, 2023, 07:35:32 pmIt claims 6 digits, .05% accuracy. Spec sheet attached. I want to get multiple test points, and extras, so I'd rather not pay $10+ per resistor (if possible). 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 08:11:56 pm
content: I have the calibration protocol from our ST2830, in the protocol the references are listed they used for it.For Capacitance:https://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/Datasheets/1404.pdfhttps://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/Datasheets/1409.pdfFor Inductance:https://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/Datasheets/1482.pdf

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 08:41:40 pm
content: For a 1Ω 0.1% SMD resistor my choices are 25ppm/C for $0.48, or 2ppm/C for $52.47.I think I'm going to say 25ppm/C is good enough for me. 🤣🤣🤣

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 09:24:39 pm
content: If I were to bet, I would say luudee's files are AT - calibration and MB - settings.The curious fact is that the mb85rc64t dump contains explicitly the "2830" reference, and he has a 2832 if I'm not mistaken.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 10:10:32 pm
content: QuoteHmm..Let´s hope this is the place were the open/short-calibrations are stored and nothing else.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 10:38:55 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 04, 2023, 09:24:39 pmYou're correct. All the hardware says 2830 also. The only piece physically that's different is the sticker on the front.It seems the hardware ID we're actually looking for isn't stored on either of those 2 chips?BTW- I saw this video:He's able to call the version numbers up in his terminal window. Is this a route we should consider also to try and modify that?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 11:54:00 pm
content: The AT24C512 is nearly empty. There are 64 bytes of data at 0xc000 and 0xe000 and that's it. Maybe this flash is where the user defined system settings are getting stored in.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 12:25:35 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 04, 2023, 11:54:00 pmThe spec sheet says "Built-in Storage Internal 100 LCRZ instrument setting files, 201 times test results" - maybe that's what those 2 chips are.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 12:29:42 am
content: That is possible. There is also an internal EEPROM inside the LPC1788 which could have the model ID inside. Only way to find out is to write software into the chip that can dump the internal EEPROM.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 12:52:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 05, 2023, 12:29:42 amThat's beyond my skills. Anybody else? lol

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 12:54:39 am
content: Apparently this thing can take screenshots. They should have a dedicated key, oh well. You gotta hold down the period key.Note: the 100pF cap is silver mica, the 2.2mF and 1.0mF caps are electrolytics.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 01:02:13 am
content: Perusing the manual, I confirmed my suspicion that their version number is bullshit. They all say Ver1.0, and the only thing that changes is the date.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 03:45:39 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 05, 2023, 12:29:42 amThe LPC1788 has 512KB of Flash and 4032 bytes of EEPROM.I'm pretty sure I can dump the Flash (if the security Fuse is not set).I am not sure about the EEPROM though ....But I won't be able to do anything until the weekend ...Cheers,luudee

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 11:25:14 am
content: EEPROM access requires to use the internal ROM routines from software in normal situations. I don't know if there is a tool which can be used to read the EEPROM over the JTAG interface.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2023, 01:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 05, 2023, 11:25:14 amHi Nico,yes, you are 100% right. This is from the LPC1788 User Manual:Cheers,luudee

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2023, 10:55:48 am
content: So, unfortunately, some bad news.I tried to read the internal Flash of the LPC1788, but could not.I even created a special adopter, so I can look at the signals with my scope.I also was able to confirm that the JTAG interface of the LPC1788 was connectedto the 10 pin connector (you can see the traces on the very top layer, going to pins2 and 4, which are TDO and TDI ...At this point, I believe that the security fuses have been engaged, and we willnot be able to access the internal FLASH.If anybody has any ideas/suggestions, I would like to hear them ...Cheers,luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2023, 11:49:28 pm
content: More bad news...The sourcetronic firmwares both have measurement issues. Most measurements are good, but 100KΩ across the board from 100Hz to 200kHz, and 10KΩ at 1kHz are both bad. Off by as much as 50%. I tried ST2832, then ST2830, then TH2830. The only one that accurately measured those was the TH2830 firmware.@Martin72, can you please test your ST2830 with 100K and 10K resistors at those frequencies and see if it works fine for you? Can you also post your firmware "copyright" date from startup?I'll post my measurements after I enter them in Excel.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 12:30:58 am
content: Here's the test results on the spreadsheet I setup.Notes:The ST42 test frequencies weren't stable, they never settled, so I left the range as the result.The ST42 signal level is 1Vpp, so it reads 0.3586Vrms.The failures are pretty consistent in the Sourcetronic firmwares, so I only noted the ST2832 results. The TH2830 results are there for comparison.I'm not going to bother with L or C measurements for now.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 12:47:48 am
content: Hi Josh,Could make the measures on monday at work, the last day before my holidays.Here a snip from the last calibration (May 2023), unfortunately only at 100Hz/1kHz, so I´ll take my new reference board to work and measure with 10khz and 100khz.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 01:19:54 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 08, 2023, 12:47:48 amAwesome, thank you. It would also be very helpful if you can get the firmware date when it starts up; whatever the copyright says. I have a hunch they might have supplied outdated firmware files. I don't know if it was on purpose or not. I hope not.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 08:59:11 pm
content: QuoteTo me, stupid as I am, it sounds like the "foreign" firmwares can't find the calibration data, wherever that may be stored.Or there must be a calibration, which is then stored and then also "found".

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 10:25:01 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 08, 2023, 08:59:11 pmI understand the logic of that thought, but I don't agree for a couple reasons. First, the ST2830 had no issue with recalling data or previous states. Only the patched ST2832 couldn't recall previous states, but it did recall correction data (which is stored separately).Besides that, I know this issue is related to outdated firmware because:Quote from: mawyatt on January 05, 2022, 08:01:55 pmI'm looking forward to seeing what version your Sourcetronic firmware is. I'm confident that it's newer than the versions I have.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2023, 10:34:05 pm
content: Hmm...you might be right.Lately a thread about a handheld lcr tester from east tester, it has problems with measuring resistance and this is a bug that needs to be solved.OK, I take my reference to work and measure the resistance under various frequencies and record the version number.Interesting thing !

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 03:35:14 am
content: So I have been following Josh's resistor measurements, and did some myself,on my TH2832:On My SDM3065, I did a 4 wire measurement of a random resistor. It reported itto be 100.36 KOhm.But my TH2832, reports:200Khz: 93.36 KOhm100Khz: 98.70 KOhm10Khz: 100.18 KOhmBut, then, I looked at the calibration report for resistors (see attached).It looks like resistor measurements are only specified up to 10 KHz (and below).So, may be what you are seeing, Josh, is normal operational behavior ?!PLEASE SEE POSTS BELOW FOR CORRECTION !!!Cheers,luudee

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 09:08:25 am
content: Did you do a open/short calibration? What are the accuracy specs for that resistance value at those test frequencies?

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 09:46:59 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2023, 09:08:25 amHi Nico !Indeed, I haven't calibrated it since I took it apart, thank you for keeping me honest! ;-)So, after calibration, things look much better (same resistor):200 KHz: 100.35 KOhm100 KHz: 100.33 KOhm10 KHz: 100.36 KOhmPlease see my previous post for accuracy specs in the Calibration certificate.Cheers,luudee

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 11:40:11 am
content: One thing to keep in mind when using an LCR meter is that the reading depends on measuring amplitude and phase. At some point these measurements can no longer be made with a reasonable accuracy. Most LCR meters have a graph or formula in the manual that tells you what kind of accuracy to expect for a given component value. Looking at the calibration results, you can see they don't bother measuring 100k Ohm at 100kHz and the 30k Ohm allows for a larger error margin compared to the measurement at 10kHz.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 12:29:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2023, 11:40:11 amThis.For instance, capacity of electrolytic capacitors is routinely measured at 100/120 Hz. You NEED to measure them at that frequency to compare capacity to nominal.. At 100kHz 1000uF represent miliohms and is hard to measure.Example diagram from old Digibridge:

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 12:51:39 pm
content: Another thing to keep in mind here regarding 100KHz measurement of a 100K Resistor, is at +-0.1% that's the equivalent of ~+-0.016pF (16fF) capacitance change.Remember this is in the entire setup including instrument, DUT, any cables, fixtures and whatnot, and quality OEM Kelvin cables help but don't eliminate this potential error source. Cable bending, placement and the position of the clip tips have effects, also Kelvin techniques do not circumvent DUT shunt effects such as distributed capacitance between Kelvin clip tips which are not shielded wrt a ground shield. This is why we prefer for LCR measurements, especially high impedance and upper frequency ranges, using a test fixture specific for the type DUT, rather than Kelvin leads, even the fixture for leaded DUT like the TH26048A has proven more reliable (repeatable) than Kelvin leads in our experience.So extreme care is necessary for precision repeatable measurements of high impedance devices at 100KHz and above for these lab grade LCR meters. On our Hioki IM3536 for example, there's an entire 13 page Chapter (10.6) dedicated to just accuracy. It's very complex with 5 variables in addition to the DUT measurement parameter and range selected. These variables coefficients are for Level, Measurement Speed, Test Cable Length, DC Bias, and Temperature, and each of these variables coefficients is specified for 7 different frequency ranges from DC to 8MHz.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 01:48:04 pm
content: That's all (at least basically 😉) understood, which is why I used SMD resistors on an SMD test fixture. I let the meter run for over an hour before applying correction (manual says at least 30 minutes).While it's good information, it's not relevant here. The devices are clearly capable of reading 100KΩ at 100kHz and 200kHz:Quote from: luudee on July 09, 2023, 09:46:59 amThe buggy ST2832 firmware failed at a lot more than just high freq.ST2832 100KΩ:100Hz =49.50521kHz =67.686610kHz =78.2236100kHz = 98.1972200kHz = 91.5881ST2832 100K DCR = 100.057ST2832 10kΩ @1kHz fail =6.78268Same hardware, 100KΩ, switched back to TH2830 firmware:100Hz = 100.0131kHz = 100.01310kHz = 100.005100kHz = 99.8795

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 02:43:10 pm
content: QuoteAnd still there a people in the forum who don´t want to understand this or can´t.It makes no sense measuring µF at 100khz, but they do and ranting about the "crappy meter"...@nctnico:This were my thoughts after reading the cal-protocol and wonder why they did´t test anything above 1kHz/10kHz, although the meter goes up to 100kHz.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 04:08:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2023, 11:40:11 amQuote from: Martin72 on July 09, 2023, 02:43:10 pmI think it's got more to do with either laziness or reducing the labor cost of calibration, and/or possibly whatever is actually required for specific cal standards.The Tonghui cal didn't measure less than 100pF at 1kHz, they didn't measure capacitance below 100Hz at all, and they didn't measure beyond 1nF, 10nF, 100nF at any range besides 1kHz. That's clearly not about machine capability.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 04:24:39 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 09, 2023, 04:08:29 pmIt is. See the graph 2N3055 posted. The manual of your LCR meter has similar graphs or at least a formula that can be used to derive such a graph.In the end an LCR meter is designed to measure components accurately but can only do so if there is a measurable voltage across the DUT.If you want to measure components over a wide frequency range, then a network analyser is a more suitable piece of equipment although the accuracy will be lower. For example: when doing Power Distribution Network measurements, you are measuring capacitors ranging from hundreds of pf to tens of uf and trace inductances (nano Henries) over a wide frequency range (up to several hundred MHz) in order to check the impedance of the power distribution network on a circuit board.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 04:52:45 pm
content: QuoteAnd it´s nearly always the same, I think because of the same measure principle.Here the diagram of the ET4410, where I must confess that I have problems to read it right - too many crosslines...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 05:02:57 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 09, 2023, 04:52:45 pmYes, nomograms like this really are better when colors are used....But they exist as a handy reminder what exactly the numbers are on top of user intuition where limits are approximately.Basically, check what are limits of your LCR meter when measuring R. Those will be limits of measurement circuit. Then you know if test frequency is high, your L must not be higher impedance than what R you can measure. Or C cannot be smaller impedance then what R you can measure.On the same token, if frequency is too low for small L it will be represented by very small impedance, or small C will be very high impedance...Low frequency: good for large C and large LHigh frequency : good for small C and small LThis nomogram is just nicely plotted that...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 06:15:57 pm
content: That's all great theory, but we've already shown in practice that the meters we're discussing here can in fact accurately measure 100KΩ at 100kHz and 200kHz.Those charts also point out that what I said is accurate. Using the correct test subjects at the correct test frequency was skipped. They only used a limited range of cap values that can be read in a broader frequency range. Most likely to reduce labor costs, or because whatever standard Tonghui was pretending to do didn't require anything beyond that. This gives a generalized result, without getting into more detailed specifics.Attached here is the chart from the Sourcetronic manual for the 283X models.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 06:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 09, 2023, 06:15:57 pmTry to convince a calibration lab this statement is true.In reality you have to be really careful to make claims about test equipment accuracy beyond the specification. It is better not to make such claims in order to prevent unpleasant surprises. The reason some values are not tested as part of the calibration is not due to laziness or saving work but to provide only meaningfull data. You can be sure that a 10k Ohm resistor measures within spec next year. Your 100k Ohm resistor may show an entirely different value... You won't be able to know for sure whether the resistor has changed or the meter has aged.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 07:10:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 09, 2023, 06:58:20 pmWell, either way, we're talking about faulty firmware. The bad firmware had issues with 100KΩ across all the ranges. The closest measurements were actually in the 100kHz and 200kHz ranges. This isn't about discussing accuracy at those ranges in general. luudee's TH2832 did measure accurately in all ranges with his better firmware.Can you read that ridiculous chart I posted? What does it say for accuracy of 100kΩ at 100kHz? It looks like it should still be in the 0.1 to 0.2% range to me. That's not too crappy.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 07:11:36 pm
content: @nctnico:I think his first concern is why he gets a plausible value with the original firmware and not with the other two.Detached from the accuracy question.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 07:18:47 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 09, 2023, 07:11:36 pmYou are correct. Either way, within the limits in the chart I posted above, 100kΩ at 100kHz should be within a 0.1 to 0.2% margin of error. 100kΩ at 200kHz should be within a 0.25 to 0.35% margin of error. Device limitations is certainly not the issue.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 07:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 09, 2023, 06:15:57 pmThere is nothing funny about that chart. As C or L start to approach a limit of zero or infinite ohm at the edges of chart, internal noise of instrument and accuracy of components (drift etc) start to be as large as measured component value.. And accuracy will drop off gradually, as it is shown..To simplify it, it is about accurate measuring amplitude and phase of low micro(nano)volts and low micro(nano)amps.. Instruments cannot have unlimited dynamic range..Middle of the chart is a sweet spot, Goldilocks area, hence best accuracy.. To the extremes, it worsens gradually..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 07:57:59 pm
content: Of course. Now let's look at collected data:Quote from: luudeeQuote from: KungFuJoshAssuming the worse option from the chart above (0.35) at 200kHz, that gives us a +/- range of 99,650Ω to 100,350Ω.luudee's 200kHz reading stated 100.35 kΩ, which is as expected. So theory and practice agree. However, it being higher in all 3 ranges implies the resistor itself is high, and the meter accuracy is better than expected (though still within expected range).The readings are goofy with the buggy firmware.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 09:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 09, 2023, 05:02:57 pm...It´s too good to be true..

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 02:45:54 am
content: @Josh, the only thing that is buggy/not working/bad accuracy, is when you flash 2832 FW in to 2830 HW.Perhaps the CPLD is slightly different for the units ?When you stick with the original FW, you DO get proper readings, correct ?BTW, the accuracy chart is exactly the same as in the Tonghui User manual.Cheers,luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 03:25:58 am
content: Quote from: luudee on July 10, 2023, 02:45:54 amThe ST2830 firmware also has similar issues to the ST2832. Both Sourcetronic firmwares are older than the Tonghui versions. The ST2830 firmware has less bugs compared to the 2832.The hardware is identical between the units and likely the brands too. I'm sure all the user manual stuff is essentially the same besides the logos.Actually, if@Martin72could get pictures of the inside of his ST2830, that would be awesome...but I don't know if he can, since it's a work meter. I wonder if they have different silkscreens on the Sourcetronic versions or not. It's only 3 screws. 😉

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 05:54:23 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 10, 2023, 03:25:58 am@Josh, yes, fundamentally the HW is identical. BUT, the contents of the Altera MAX II CPLD may be different. At this point unknown.The CPLD is clearly between the NXP MCU and the Analog box ....The user manual, specifically covers all three models, TH283x (TH2830, TH2831, TH2832). Where the differencesappear to be in the Frequency Ranges and number of points ....Cheers,luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 01:25:16 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 10, 2023, 05:54:23 amI've already confirmed that there are no set limitations on any of the features, it's entirely controlled by the firmware. TH2831 is different hardware, that's an older device (EOL).Running the patched firmware, I can type in any frequency I want, and it will work and register correctly on my DMM. DC bias, etc. Everything works. The only issues I've run into are firmware bugs.This is from my test with the patched firmware:

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 02:06:57 pm
content: Hi,I'm at work at the moment, all results later.One thing:97k Ohm at 100kHz...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 02:17:33 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 10, 2023, 02:06:57 pmDon't forget it needs to be warmed up for 30 minutes before correction. 😉

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 04:07:10 pm
content: Had a few minutes and turned on the TH2830 and IM3536, let them warm up for ~45min and grabbed some 0603, 0805 and 1206 100K resistors. Had some standard 1%, and some 0.1% and a couple low TC (15 and 25ppm) types.Edit: Remember to always let these instruments warm up with the measurement fixture attachedDid an open/short cal with SMD fixtures, one on each instrument. Open was ~1206 spacing, short with plungers together under normal pressure. If we were doing a serious measurement, then the short would be done with a zero ohm SMD device of the same size as the DUT, and the open would be done with the plunger spacing same as DUT.Both instruments agree well in Impedance Magnitude, Angle, Equivalent Parallel Resistance & Capacitance measured at 100KHz. The equivalent capacitance seems reasonable for these SMD devices (~0.05pF).Anyway, the TH2830 is certainly a capable LCR meter and glad we have one on the bench to supplement the more expensive IM3536, a number of years past wise investment indeedEdit: Will post results if interested but don't want to clutter up the thread. Should have done DCR measurements as well and compared with our KS34465A, but didn'tAdded per request, here's a few measurements including DCR and a KS34465A DCR measurement.Setup 100 ohm output, 1V, 16 Avg, Slow at 100KHz.Size TH2830 IM35361206 1% 99.9877K -0.185 degrees, 99.9876K @ 0.05130pF 100.001K -0.201 degrees, 100.011K @ 0.0559pF0805 1% 100.164K -0.209 , 100.164K @ 0.05799pF 100.186K -0.247 , 100.185K @ 0.0685pF0805 0.1% 15ppm 99,9706K -0.180 , 99.9709K @ 0.04988pF 99.9849K -0.218 , 99.9841K @ 0.0606pF99.9712K DCR 99.9830K DCRKS34465A 99.97951K DCRBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 04:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 10, 2023, 04:07:10 pmI'd love to see some comparison results.No DCR comparison?? Shame! 🙄🤣

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 04:39:04 pm
content: What inductors does anybody recommend for calibrationish testing? The previously posted sheet had values of 100uH, 1mH, 10mH, 100mH, 1H.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 04:42:51 pm
content: Where it comes to uphacking, a few questions remain unanswered that need further investigation now it turns out uphacking an ST2830 to ST2832 is not working by just patching the device selection.- Is the CPLD program different between TH2830, ST2830 and ST2832 firmware versions?- What is the third data blob inside the firmware image?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 04:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 10, 2023, 02:06:57 pmDid you get the version number? I'm very curious about that.Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 04:54:09 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 10, 2023, 04:17:07 pmAdded above!!Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 04:57:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 10, 2023, 04:42:51 pmFurther investigation is needed, but we also need to be certain that the firmware we're using is reliable.Here's what we know:Both of the ST versions of the firmware we have show older version dates than the Tonghui version.The newer Tonghui fw version (2021-10-14) was supplied to correct a similar bug to what I'm experiencing withbothST firmware versions.My device sticker says TH2830:Flashing ST2830 (2020-04-16) is mostly good, but has similar measurement bug that needs to be fixed.Flashing ST2832 (2019-04-23) measurement bug is worse, and has issues recalling "previous state" but appears to recall correction. All advanced functionality appears to work as expected otherwise. Operationally appears fine besides those bugs.It stands to reason that the Sourcetronic firmwares are outdated and contain similar bugs to what was experienced with the outdated Tonghui firmware, and the results agree with that. It's not unreasonable to presume that the oldest firmware is the least developed.We either need a better TH2832 firmware, or newer/better Sourcetronic firmware.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 06:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 10, 2023, 02:17:33 pmIt´s not the first time I´m working with it.Made no difference but after open/short cal it "gains" one kiloohm more..First a few pics, startup screen and then pics from the inside after loosing the three screws..Seeing pictures or see it in real makes a difference - I was surprised about the good building quality.If I hadn´t the hioki, I would buy one.A little bit later the results from measuring on the dmm checker.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 06:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 10, 2023, 06:01:37 pmHey, that 1kΩ is closer to the expected value. 😉Agreed, excellent quality. As I expected, the hardware is identical, as is the silkscreen:Edit: Did you get any photos that show the silkscreen better beneath the IEC inlet? It looks identical to mine, says VER1.9@2, but we can't see the year. Mine says VER1.9@2019.9. I'm curious what the year difference is between A6 and A7. Not that it really matters. 🤷Edit again: lol, I just looked at luudee's photos, and your transformers are identical except ST added a nice sticker to yours.Since your firmware version is the same, I think I'll reflash it and see if the bug is really there or not, or if I was going too quickly.Edit again again: I think I may also try some THT 100KΩ resistors with a different fixture. My SMT fixture is the only off-brand one.We really need some TH2832 firmware.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 07:00:29 pm
content: Hi,Can open it up again in 2.5 weeks...Here the results of the resistance measure, worst case deviation is appx 1.4% when DCR is the reference.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 06:58:36 am
content: I guess we need more in depth look at the firmwares.

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 07:27:39 am
content: BTW:Did someone measured a 0.1 ... 1uH SMD RF coil?as may Hantek 1832C at 100kHz shows up only using 47uH, using an 4-pol Tweezers.. below as at lostHp

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: hpw on July 11, 2023, 07:27:39 amI'm waiting on a Mouser order with the following:10nH100nH10uH100uH1mH10mH

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:52:21 pm
content: Nano henry...wohoo...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 09:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 11, 2023, 09:52:21 pmSounds like a superhero when you spell it out. 😉BTW- I ran the test again, this time with an official Tonghui kelvin lead fixture using a CMF 1% 100kΩ resistor. Prior to each test set, and after each firmware flashing, I let the meter warm up a minimum of 30 minutes before performing new open/short/dcr corrections.Results:Did you test your ST2830 with 100 kΩ with frequencies besides 100 kHz?I have a theory that the reason I have issues with the ST firmware is that because they're older, they're likely only compatible with C6 or A6 hardware, and won't work right on C7 or A7 hardware (beyond any bugs). That would be one possible explanation why I have issues with the same version of ST2830 fw as you...assuming you are able to read 100kΩ across all the frequencies with better results.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:05:59 pm
content: Hi,https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/th2830-vs-th2832/msg4953937/#msg4953937DC,100Hz, 1kHZ, 10kHz, 100kHz...If you want other frequencies inbetween, sorry man, for the next 2weeks I couldn´t get the ST2830 for measure..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:10:54 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 11, 2023, 10:05:59 pmScrew that, go to work! 😉Nah, I don't need anything else. Clearly the firmware works better on your A6 hw than on my A7 hw, assuming that's the responsible difference. I wonder what's actually different. Both of the mainboards were made in 2019 or earlier.Although it's clear that my 2830 results were more consistent with the newer TH fw.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:24:01 pm
content: QuoteLooking at your "results"...This will probably be some correction data that does not work with your device.The cross-check would be to load YOUR firmware on another device.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 11:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 11, 2023, 10:24:01 pmMy firmware was given to me from another user. I asked what his hardware ID is. If we're both A7, then that doesn't tell me anything, but if his is A6, and both work with the same newer fw, then that's at least a clue.You could load both the TH and ST 2830 fws on your work meter if you want. You already know the ST version works fine. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 12:22:19 am
content: If then something is going wrong, I´m dead..Jokes aside, with every firmware "update" the previous calibration is void.Another thing:QuotePart numbers please..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 01:01:01 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 12, 2023, 12:22:19 amAttached is a list of what I'm using for testing the LCR.

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 10:00:02 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 11, 2023, 09:45:27 pmNice ... may the question rises about the used tweezers as I use a Kelvin 4 pol one. As may this draws soon an issue.But first lets see what you get.Hp

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 01:44:30 pm
content: Quote from: hpw on July 12, 2023, 10:00:02 amI don't like wired tweezers at all. I use an SMT fixture, or Shannon ST-42 tweezers for SMT stuff.I actually disassembled the tweezers that came with my DE-5000 to make kelvin clips.

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 03:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 12, 2023, 01:44:30 pmHmm, your looks like the TH26008A Magnetic ring fixture ...as performance:"When the test frequency is ≥100kHz, the capacity is ≤3pF, or theinductance is ≤1µH, this type of SMD fixture is suitable."so below 1uH not supported nor possible for any measurements.My question is also on this "TH26008A Magnetic ring fixture", how to go in the supported MHz regions as the TH2830 max as 100kHz.Hp

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 04:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: hpw on July 12, 2023, 03:53:22 pmYou read that backwards. It says less than or equal to 1µH. We'll see what it does in practice. It's not the same as that anyway, it's a knockoff. Real world testing results may vary. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 05:37:47 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 11, 2023, 09:52:21 pmAnd for good reason...The nice thing about known components is that you have/get data sheets for them.So you can verify whether the values are correct.To be on the safe side in this respect, you measure as the manufacturer had done when specifying the values, so far so good and clear.And now comes the "Wo-hoo"...I rummaged through all the data sheets that could be found for your parts list and listed the respective test frequencies that have to be used to arrive at the same values.And that's where it usually gets sporty with an LCR measuring device that can "only" do 100khz/200kHz....This is just information for the case that you measure "strange" things with your TH2830/32.Martin

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 05:43:58 pm
content: We have the handheld Tonghui TH2609B tweezers, they work well but are not as good as the dedicated SMD fixtures we've found for repeatability of measurement, even the two no-name SMD fixtures we have (copies of the 120MHz TH26008A) perform better (especially after some internal mods & adjustments).Awhile back we did a direct evaluation of these no-name fixtures, mainly with our Tonghui TH2830 and Hioki IM3536 LCR meters. The test was simple and designed to verify IF these no-name SMD fixtures could be reliable in measurement. Various quality SMD components were compared between the two instruments with the same fixture transferred, and proper warm up and short/open calibration invoked. During this we discovered the fixtures lacked some internal shielding to the case an corrected such, then found the attachment to the plungers were loose and could introduce measurement variations, these were tightened and all the test repeated. This proved the modified and corrected fixtures were reliable and produced almost identical results between the two instruments with a variety of SMD devices over the frequency range of 50Hz to 100KHz (limits of the TH2830), then went beyond with the IM3536 (4Hz to 8MHz) just to "see" if any anomilities showed up in the measurements, none did.So we concluded these SMD fixtures were good enough for our use, of course YMMVNote also verified the handheld DE-5000 did well when using these SDM fixtures (created an adapter for such).Edit: Also, while on the discussion of fixtures and such, we've found the common Kelvin type clips with the individual cables to BNCs work fine at DC, and very low frequencies (like for use measuring electrolytics), but don't behave well with DUTs that have high impedances (small caps for example) as frequency increases. If you note the quality Kelvin clips like the TH26011CS they only recommend to 100KHz, and the 4 individual Kelvin leads are ~250mm long and come from a box which mechanically terminates each lead into a combined single cable which is the major part of the ~1M length back to a fixture which hosts the 4 BNC connectors. This is more stable mechanically and electrically than the common 4 individual Kelvin leads types with BNCs, especially considering these are usually only a single shield cables which are not 100% effective shielded (here double shielding would be desired, but cost more and less flexible).For leaded DUTs we've found the TH26048A works well and is speced to 13MHz.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 06:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 12, 2023, 05:43:58 pmWell, yeah, it's your fault I bought the fixture. 😉QuoteI like that too. I haven't had any issues with the Th26011CS either.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 07:03:13 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 12, 2023, 06:39:49 pmYeah, we generally don't recommend things, usually just state what we have and use and leave it at that!!However, these inexpensive SMD fixtures work so well (after mods/fixing), even with handhelds like the DE-5000 (with adapter), we wanted others that are on a budget, either hobbiest or small business, to benefit from such with better, more repeatable measurements.If we had discovered these before we purchased the somewhat expensive (~$180) TH26009B Kelvin tweezers, well we could have saved some $, nothing wrong with them but they aren't used much anymore.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 01:05:42 pm
content: Calling@tv84- we have a new toy to play with. 😉This one has a date of 2021-06-25, and is supposed to be compatible with the newer hardware.Once again, Sourcetronic customer service wins. They contacted "the firmware developer" who sent them this.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 02:09:08 pm
content: QuoteA-haaa...

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 02:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 19, 2023, 02:09:08 pmNo, it was not me!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 02:51:47 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 19, 2023, 02:30:42 pmIt is now. 😉😉

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 08:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 19, 2023, 02:51:47 pmHere.Header: 41424344F07D0700A03E1400Signature: "ABCD" (MAGIC OK)Block1 Size: 00077DF0 [00000018-00077E07]Block1 Checksums: 3BF0 [00077E08-0007B9F7]Block2 Size: 00143EA0 [0007B9F8-001BF897]Block2 Checksums: A1F5 [001BF898-001C9A8C]

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 09:17:57 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 19, 2023, 08:44:26 pmThank you!All the previous bugs seem to be gone so far. It remembered the previous state upon startup too. I'll do a full test soon when I receive my test PCB.Version:Quick test:I didnotgive the meter the required 30 minutes before running correction. Probably not even 30 seconds lol. I'll do it properly when I do the full test.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 09:32:06 pm
content: QuoteAnd then with open/short calibration...QuoteCould be interesting what you´ll measure..I´m curious.It´s itching in my fingers to take the file and.....No.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 10:01:05 pm
content: I feel an LCR meter upgrade coming up... But I really need a new laptop first

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 10:05:37 pm
content: My upgrade will take a while, but then I won't need another one:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/hioki-3532-50-lcr-schematic-service-manual-wanted/msg4969691/#msg4969691

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2023, 10:27:37 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 19, 2023, 09:32:06 pmI did the open/short after the patient 30 seconds of waiting. 😉Here's a warm up time comparison. Open/short correction applied after the specified time. Note: it's a THT fixture, the resistor is a 1% CMF, but it was not in the same position for both tests.For my needs in general, the 30s time is plenty accurate.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2023, 12:57:18 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 19, 2023, 09:32:06 pmWhen does your calibration expire? 😉

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2023, 01:56:21 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 19, 2023, 10:27:37 pmHmm, looks like 200 KHz is still off ...luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2023, 03:32:36 am
content: Quote from: luudee on July 20, 2023, 01:56:21 amYes, but overall significant improvement. When I do a full test we'll see how everything else is. 100KΩ accuracy isn't expected to be great at 200kHz, but that is worse than it should be.What do 100KΩ measurements look like across the range with your TH2832?Thanks,Josh

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2023, 04:12:50 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 20, 2023, 03:32:36 amJosh,please look at post #165 ...I will redo the tests. I am ordering some 0.1% resistors from mouser, 100 ohm, 10K, 100K, 499K & 1MThat should give a basic feel for it's performance ...luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2023, 01:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 20, 2023, 04:12:50 amOh yeah, that is much better.I look forward to seeing the extended results.Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2023, 01:37:52 pm
content: A simple RC model using the 200KHz value predicts a shunt C of ~2.14pF for the R, which seems large. This value C would produce a 100KHz reading of ~97.7K.So it seems at 200KHz this is not utilizing a proper internal calibration value?Agree, luudee's test should revel much!!Also a quick look at the ratio of the 30 second and 1 hour warm up values across all frequencies and DC hints that the 200KHz range is suspect, only the 200KHz range has significant change!!Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2023, 02:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 20, 2023, 01:37:52 pmMy thoughts exactly. However, ST seems to think that there's only open/close correction, and no other means of adjustment. I don't know if that's true.If there is a way to make adjustments, then that would be awesome. Figuring that out is another story.There is manual open/close correction that can be done, but I assume that will get reset with ever new correction...and I don't remember if you can actually adjust the values. I'll mess with it.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 04:52:30 pm
content: I got my test board in and populated it. What a time saver! I got the whole test done on the ST2832 in just under an hour. Setting up the SMD stuff on the fixture one at a time before took hours to get the test done, and I didn't even test everything. Testing with the ST42 took under 20 minutes.Here's my test board:Test setup:Results attached, along with the BOM of the parts on the board.

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 05:16:49 pm
content: Is it possible to try finding the factory calibration routine in the meter (hope it exists) and do it if you have some parts that you trust?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 05:28:30 pm
content: Quote from: zrq on July 22, 2023, 05:16:49 pmI have no idea! But I love the idea. If it's as easy as running an inbuilt routine and attaching some stuff, I can do that. 😉 I don't know if such a routine exists, and I'm certain Tonghui or ST won't share any service manuals. Of course, now I want to try and find a service manual anyway.There is a "spot correction" option in the open/short correction screen. I think that might work along the lines of what you're suggesting for specific frequency correction. Only 2 problems with that so far: 1. I haven't figured out how to set it yet (haven't really tried though, didn't RTFM for that either), and 2. Every time you do open/short correction, it clears the spot correction.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 09:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 22, 2023, 04:52:30 pmWhy aren't the traces to the components split to have Kelvin connections all the way to the parts? I see a 10nH inductor there for example.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 09:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 22, 2023, 09:01:19 pmTwo reasons:1. I didn't know I should do that? 😉2. It's perty good/accurate the way it is.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 09:26:25 pm
content: The idea itself is good.But when measuring the very low inductances and capacitors you could get "problems", because every mm way counts.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 09:29:56 pm
content: Well, now I know. If I ever design something like this again, I'll do the split traces. Of course, I ordered 10, and made 2, and I only need 1, so... 🤷🤣

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 09:34:10 pm
content: If I may "steal" your idea, I would design it something like DMMCheck had done with the L/C option board..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 09:37:39 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 22, 2023, 09:34:10 pm🤣🤣🤣 That's whereIgot the idea from! But I went for an extended range.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 10:03:53 pm
content: Yepp, but with a little difference..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 10:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 22, 2023, 10:03:53 pmOh, yeah, I didn't want them in series though. My tests apply to the ST2832 and the ST42. If my board was dependent on series results, then I couldn't test with tweezers.Why do you like the other way better?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 10:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 22, 2023, 09:34:10 pmWith such traces you can end up in tens of nH. That would already add more than 1% of uncertainty to the 1uH inductor on the DMM check board. Not to mention the stubs you get. IOW: IMHO the DMM check style board is very unsuitable for measuring small component values accurately. There is a very good reason LCR meters have these fancy adapters for measuring components.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 10:30:47 pm
content: Nico...I wouldn´t start with nH, because like I said before in this value range every mm counts..The LC-Optionboard: Values were measured out by a frequency of 10kHz, it was "wise" from them not to go higher.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2023, 11:43:45 pm
content: You're both missing the point. Theactualvalue of the target isn't that important. What matters most is the value you get from the test device at the testing points.For example, if you send the loaded PCB out for calibration, the cal lab will certify the values they read at each test point.Thatcalibration is your reference, not what values showed up on Mouser's shopping cart. The specific component value doesn't matter at all, as long as it can be calibration verified. Then you check against the calibration values to see if your meter is in spec. Is this inductor 1.0039345mH or 1.003955mH? If that difference matters to you, you need to get it calibrated anyway. For me, if it says 1.00mH, the rest of the digits aren't that interesting.For my needs, all the values were close enough to see where there are and are not issues with my LCR meter. I doubt I'd ever have the PCB calibrated, but I can refer to my saved cal data and see if my meters are still consistent in a year or 10.All that said, the values between the ST42 and the ST2832 were close enough. The ST42 tweezers were used directly on each test device. I suppose, if you actually care enough to get it calibrated, you can have a direct tweezer test and a separate test point test done for reference of both testing methods.I think you're both thinking too much like this is a functional circuit where the component value actually has an effect on something.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 11:23:57 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 22, 2023, 11:43:45 pmThat doesn't make sense because at the point where the board itself starts to influence the component value significantly (which is definitely the case for the low component values) you won't have a sensible measurement to begin with. Especially with the large antennas attached to the parts that will pickup whatever noise is in the air.If you want to make an LCR calibration standard on a board, then make a 4 layer board that has 4 BNCs that can plug into an LCR meter, use the outer layers as shield and run the signals from the BNCs on the inner layers seperately to pads to solder a part. IOW: the traces connect at the part only. This board can only hold 1 component. But even then you can only test parts that have a significantly higher value compared to the variations between the boards. Adding a shield can over the the component helps to improve the stability of the readings even further. BTW: you will need several of these boards including an open and a shorted one.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 01:30:46 pm
content: That's a cool idea, but this board suits my needs just fine. I think if I was going to do that, rather than bulky BNCs, I would put top / bottom layer pads that kelvin clips would work with. Then the single component boards could be much smaller. Wouldn't that be fine with 2 layers?Did you see my results PDF on reply 235? I didn't include the 10nH because nothing could read it anyway. 100nH was fine, 10pF was fine, everything else worked in the expected ranges.The biggest issues I saw were: ~700mH inductor at 10kHz; 100Ω DCR; and 100kΩ at 200kHz. 100kΩ at 100kHz wasn't great either, but not as bad.A smaller issue was maybe 100mH at 10kHz, but that and other smaller variances aren't as meaningful without a real calibration done beforehand.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 02:31:41 pm
content: i think this thread is derailing a bit, we talk about lcr meter mods between 2 models, for sure test(s) need to be donefor the test jigs and discutions, they should be posted in the relevant thread(s)

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 03:59:35 pm
content: Briefly looked at the strings in the firmware, unfortunately I found no reference to the factory calibration routine.Another question: when you were testing the resistor measurements and found they are off, did you do the full 201 point correction before?BTW: on Tonghui's Chinese website, there is a new model TH2832D that goes up to 300 kHz listed.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 04:31:24 pm
content: Think the idea of putting anything like a small SMD cap, resistor or inductor on a FR4/Epoxy PCB to use as some "Reference" is unwise. PCBs of FR4/Epoxy or similar material change with humidity, temperature, time, handling and so on, some PCB materials are better tho, and maybe those would be acceptable.Maybe others can comment about the different PCB materials, and the relative behavior for supporting precision SMD devices.As mentioned above every mm counts when measuring nH, and that any equipment/cabling moves can cause measurement uncertainty, including Kelvin cables. This is why we don't use Kelvin cables for precision measurements of SMDs, even the Tweezer Kelvin types. We go so far as to do a Open Cal with an LCR SMD fixture by placing the plunger opening distance equal to the expected DUT SMD spacing, this helps capture the fringe capacitance with the plungers at the expected spacing, thus minimizing the fringe capacitance effects on the DUT measurements.Along this line, for the Short Cal, we often use a Zero Ohm SMD of the same size/type as the expected DUT, altho not certain this is beneficial in all cases. The thinking here is that the Zero Ohm device helps compensate for the expected contact area of the SDM DUT as well as the plunger spacing and tension.The SMD fixture plunger spacing is an interesting thought regarding inductance measurements (as well as the mentioned capacitance measurements). Since inductance is associated with length and the fixture plunger has a diameter of ~1mm (fixtures we have) and varies in length when engaging a SMD. Then a 1206 SMD that was considered a round "wire" has a self inductance of ~1.14nH (Grover's)(1.0938nH), an 0603 0.40nH(0.4983nH), an 0402 0.22nH(0.3059nH)(Edit: found a flat wire inductance estimate). So it seems that when measuring small SMD inductances doing the Short Cal with a Zero Ohm SMD might be useful.Disclaimer we have no way of knowing if these inductors are accurate per OEMs data sheet, and did a very crude test with a small SMD inductor, 0603 10nH +-0.2nH (Wurth WE-MK type). We see a difference in the ball park as shown by Grover's estimate above relative to if the Short Cal is performed with a Zero Ohm SMD device or not.Later if time permits we may expand on this crude test, but seems that the concept of utilizing a similar size Zero Ohm SMD for the Short Cal with a SMD fixture is worthwhile for small inductors, and spacing the plungers at the proper spacing for the Open Cal is also beneficial for small capacitances. Does anyone know if "Zero Capacitance" SMD devices exist? We've thought about just using very high resistance SMDs of various sizes for the "Zero Capacitance" equivalent, but haven't do so yet.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 04:32:59 pm
content: Quote from: zrq on July 23, 2023, 03:59:35 pmI did the regular open/close + DCR corrections. There's no option for how many points except if you add manual spot correction.2832D? Hmm, I wonder if that hardware is any different. 😉🤣

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 05:10:30 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 23, 2023, 04:32:59 pmNot in the office at the moment, but I am pretty sure that I saw something like "correction lists" ....Will check in 12h !luudee

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 06:38:07 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 23, 2023, 04:31:24 pmWe just measured (Hioki IM3536) an 0603 10nH Wurth WE-MK mentioned above, the measured valued was 11.71nH when using the standard Short CalwithoutZero Ohm Shunt with the SMD fixture, andwitha Zero Ohm Shunt device 10.71nH. These were measured at 1MHz, so we could compare with data sheet.Also at 100KHz so we could use the TH2830, the IM3536 at 100KHz 11.71nH without and 10.75nH with Zero Ohm Shunt used for Short Cal, the TH2830 at 100KHz produced 11.88nH without and 10.82 with Shunt.So looks as if the Short Cal use of a Zero Ohm Shunt SMD of the same size as the inductor DUT for small inductance values has meritBest

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 07:24:01 pm
content: Now you're making me want to try the TH2830 on the board and see if the failures in that respect are the same or not. 🤔

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2023, 08:32:01 pm
content: I did some comparison tests with the TH2830, and the ST2832. Except for a couple failures from the ST2832, it actually outperformed the TH2830 firmware.The largest failure with ST2832 was the 100Ω DCR measurement:The second biggest fail was the 700mH inductor. According to their accuracy chart, between 100mH to nearly 1H should have excellent accuracy between 1k to 10kHz.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2023, 10:08:23 pm
content: If somebody with a 2830 wants to test, the failures on mine were:100uF was lower than expected (100uF read as 83uF; 2832 saw it as 90uF).100nH read as 100.045 on the ST2832, and read as 180.321 on the TH2830.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2023, 10:19:50 pm
content: Hi,I still can´t read this kind of diagrams, but measuring hundreds of milli-henry with a frequency between 1 and 10khz ?Quote100µF I could test on thursday with our ST2830, nH I don´t know if we have something like this on stock.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2023, 11:06:05 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 24, 2023, 10:19:50 pmIf referring to the Tonghui LCR diagrams shown, yes they can be confusing, most all LCR meters use them tho. You should see the entire chapter devoted to this in the Hioki IM3536 user manual, it has those graphs and page after page on getting an estimate of the relative measurement accuracyOne must remember that these LCR meters measure the VECTOR voltage across the DUT and the VECTOR current thru the DUT, all the various selectable parameters are derived from these Vector measurements.If you have an LCR meter that displays the actual DUT measured voltage and current (ours display only magnitudes), this can help in judging if the measurement at hand is within acceptable ranges, some meters also display a message when the measurement parameters are in question. Basically if the voltage measurements are very low then the measurement should be questioned, same for DUT current.Edit: Note, this is where using the appropriate LCR drive impedance and output drive voltage level can help, the objective is to produce a high enough voltage level across the DUT for good measurement and have enough current flow for a good measurement, but not so high the voltage of the DUT is almost as high as the drive voltage, nor so low as to susceptible to noise. Best to just play around with the various available settings to get familiar with how they influence readings.Anyway, we find this displayed voltage and current levels very helpful when making measurements and not having to revert to those confusing graphsBest,

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2023, 11:27:40 pm
content: QuoteSame here with my hioki....QuoteVoltage I must have a look again, but I know my hioki shows the actual current flowing.Oh I wish to have it fixed (Backlight, Touchpanel)so I can use it more for comparison in threads like this one here.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 01:10:12 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 24, 2023, 10:19:50 pmVertical lines go from the bottom to the top to tell you the test frequency capability.The dark outline boxes in the middle are percentage accuracy points. The center box is the highest accuracy, the sweet spot, giving 0.05% to 0.1% accuracy. Every step out from the center is less and less accurate, the worst being from 0.65% to 1%.All of the diagonal lines represent the DUT value. I highlighted the value range of 100mH to 1H, and crossed over it with the test frequency of 1kHz to 10kHz. This shows the DUTs in that range, tested at that frequency range, should expect the highest level of accuracy the meter is capable of.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 01:16:43 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 24, 2023, 11:06:05 pmPer your advice, I always leave the Vm/Im displayed on, but that doesn't display on DCR tests.I only learned to read those charts a couple weeks ago, but they're pretty darn helpful now that I understand. 😅

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 03:45:39 am
content: Looks as if the Impedance Magnitudesweepsweet spot is between 15 ohms and 300K from 100Hz to 2KHz, then tapers from 300K to 2K ohms at 30KHz. So one should try and get Vm/Im within the range if possible for best results.BTW the chart has an error, the upper right hand corner should read 10fF, not 10pF!!Should note that these LCR meters have a 1 ohm DCR and 3 ohm ACR ranges, and can deliver 66.7ma of DUT current, very handy for low Z value measurements.Best,

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 01:06:33 pm
content: Hi Guys,as promised, I redid the resistor tests with wire-wound 0.1% resistors.The table should be self-explanatory.The LCR meter and my DMM, are usually capable of showing "many" digitsafter the comma. If I show a limited number of digits, it's because the nextdigit was jumping back and forth and could not decide on it's value.I used the TH26048A test fixture that came with the meter, not the cables ...Cheers,luudee

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 01:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 25, 2023, 01:06:33 pmNice results. I hope mine can do that soon. 😉For images, it's annoying, but here's what you have to do:Post your message, then expand the image below the posted message.Copy the URL of the expanded image (or open the image in a new tab, and copy the URL from there).Then Modify your message, and click the "Insert Image" button that's probably directly beneath theBoldbutton, on the left. Then paste the copied image URL between the image tags, and save your changes.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 01:27:07 pm
content: Fixed a few typos in my table above ... should be all correct nowIf you compare it to the accuracy chart, it matched quite well ....Cheers,luudee

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 02:22:21 pm
content: One of the benefits (not usually mentioned) of these LCR meters is the lower Z ranges, like DCR at 1 Ohm and ACR 3 Ohm ranges, where the DUT current can be as high as ~67ma. These ranges are below most quality DMMs like the KS34465A (100 ohms) and DMM6500 (10 ohms).Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2023, 02:30:05 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on July 25, 2023, 01:27:07 pmYes, it would be nice if you could acquire the firmware so others could try it. 😉I'm curious, can you try inductance test in the 600mH to 1H range? I'd like to see how accurate/stable it is compared to my not-so-great results. If you could compare at least 1kHz and 10kHz results, that would be awesome.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 08:28:17 pm
content: I pulled a 10nH inductor off a 2nd test board, and tested it in my SMT fixture. It worked pretty well! 12nH is pretty close considering the generic test fixture, and I don't know the actual value. 😉I had an 0603 10nH inductor also, but it was too small for my fixture to work well.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 08:43:06 pm
content: Hi,Bias on ? Why ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 08:44:33 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 27, 2023, 08:43:06 pmIt's not on. It's set at 1.5V, but it's only on when the external BIAS button is lit up red...which you can't see in a screenshot. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 08:47:46 pm
content: Ahhh...12 instead of 10nH is good, better as I expected with such a "low" testfrequency.jXL is about 6mOhm - What Rdc have the coil ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 12:13:39 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 27, 2023, 08:47:46 pmWhat's jXL?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 02:26:36 am
content: XL is the reactance of the coil:XL= 2*pi*f(Hz)*L(H)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 02:44:02 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 28, 2023, 02:26:36 amWhat's the j?How did you get 6mΩ?If XL= 2*pi*f(Hz)*L(H), then isn't it:2 x Pi x 200000 x 0.000 000 012 = 0.01508? Or 15.08mΩ... My DCR was 130mΩ, I assume that's due to the fixture or correction being off or both?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 05:25:09 am
content: Ah, I took 100khz and 10nH , my fault, it was late..."j" stands for imaginary, we can omit this.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 09:00:27 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 25, 2023, 02:22:21 pmThat statement may not be true as the 6.5 digit DMMs you mention have a lot higher accuracy compared to an LCR meter and you might be operating the LCR meter outside the range where it is most accurate when measuring low resistance values.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 02:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 28, 2023, 09:00:27 amWell it is true regarding the KS34465A vs Hioki IM3536 measuring below 100 milli-ohms, the KS spec per performance verification is an error within 4 milli-ohms after 24 hours, 3 milli-ohms within 24 hours on the lowest 100 ohm range. The IM3536 is a worst case 1% error of range at 100 milli-ohm range as base line specification, or 1 milli-ohm max error in 100 milli-ohm range.The KS is fundamentally a more overall precise instrument for DC resistance measurements, however at the lowest range on the KS is 100 ohms, whereas the lowest range on the IM3536 is 100 miili-ohms, a thousand fold lower full range. One reason we acquired the Keithley DMM6500 was for the lower 10 ohm range, also the TH2830 has a 3 ohm DCR Range.We haven't done much low resistance comparisons, but did find a note from 10/15/21 where we compared the TH2830 with the newly acquired DMM6500 and the KS34465A (didn't have the IM3536 then). The resistor was a Vishay 0.12 ohm that measured 0.120560, 0.12056 and 0.1197 ohms on the TH2830, DMM6500 and KS34465A respectively.Anyway, for very low ohms measurements where the LCR meter utilize a much higher test current (KS uses just 1ma) and a much lower full scale range, we'll lean towards the LCR readings if the measurements differ much between the DMMs and LCR readings.Of course the type and use of the precision Kelvin clips likely has more user induced error than the instruments themselves at these low R rangesBTW one shouldn't discount these modern bench type LCR meters regarding overall accuracy and ability to resolve small impedances. Likely they employ the modern single chip SD 24 bit ADCs, like some of the newer DMMs do, which are quite remarkable in achieving performance levels usually attributed to more complicated and costly full circuit designs.Best,

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 03:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on July 28, 2023, 02:26:36 amToday I measured the 1µH coil from my DMMCheck unit with our ST2830 at work, then calculate by hand with a calculator whether the displayed values are consistent.XL = 2pi*f*L = 6.28*100khz*1.0235µH = 0.643 OhmImpedance Z = SQR R²+X² = SQR 0.09696²+ 0.64303² = 0.6503 Ohm.Well, they are...And this was just for fun.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2023, 01:58:25 am
content: This is kinda awesome... I made a 2nd version of my meter reference board, but this version uses 4mm pads, and I added 3 separate individual kelvin tests for low value L, C, and R. I slapped in a 10nH to test, and it worked!

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2023, 03:11:01 am
content: That's impressive being able to measure 10nH with Kelvin Clips, would think the cable and clips themselves would limit lower inductance measurements. Did you Open/Short calibrate using the pads?Also, were you able to measure the 10nH in your SMD fixture? Would think this would give more repeatable results than Kelvin Clips and mounted SMD device.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2023, 03:49:21 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 22, 2023, 03:11:01 amThe cables are definitely a limiting factor. I had to perform short calibration a few times to get them to a good place. The key was to check that the short read close enough to zero once switching back to the measurement screen. For those measurements, short read around 0.5nH, which was close enough for me. Some methods of shorting (including shorting to themselves) left the zero measurement off by way too much to be useful for anything in the low nH range. Self shorting gave very inconsistent results.Making sure the clips were well connected, without physical interference was also important. That's why the PCB is elevated in the photo. I also had to put a tiny drop of solder on the test pads so the clips could hold on well, without contacting too much of the board.I left the clips connected for a while to see how stable it was, and it averaged around 9.5nH (attached).Yes, the SMD fixture works for 10nH. However, I hate using the SMD fixture for reference testing. It takes hours to go through components individually with the SMD fixture. I can blow through this PCB really fast with the kelvin clips. Nothing needs to be perfect for me, it simply has to show it's close enough in a given range. These tests have shown where the firmware issues still exist, which thankfully isn't so much anymore.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2023, 02:12:57 pm
content: One of the keys in measurements of low impedance DUTs shows in the Vm reading on the screen at 1.96mV. That's a small voltage to resolve accurately, and especially sensitive to the method and fixture utilized as well as the the Short Calibration. Repeatability is another potential issue, if one can get reasonably close readings at different times with reassembled setups for a stable given DUT.Anyway, looks like you've got your enabled TH2832 working well. What's the latest on the enablement, were you able to resolve the various issues?Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2023, 02:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 22, 2023, 02:12:57 pmIn general, it's been great with the 2021 ST2832 firmware. I have a couple errors listed above in reply 258. 700mH inductor reading is bad, and 100Ω DCR is a bug, and comes back not a number (nanKΩ). High frequency 100KΩ is also out of spec. At 1kHZ it's 100.053, but by 100kHz it's 97.8953, then at 200kHz it drops to 86.0723.The ST guys have been having trouble getting TH to do anything about it though. There's also one dumb thing they should fix- it says CELAR RAM instead of CLEAR RAM lol.

author: oz2cpu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2023, 03:14:07 pm
content: did they ever fix DC ohm, to actually measure at ZERO HZ ?!?!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2023, 04:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: oz2cpu on August 22, 2023, 03:14:07 pmI dunno. I tested DCR on two frequency counters and my scope, and they all say about 12Hz. That's tested with the kelvin leads.Edit: I just ran a coax cable directly to the LCR, and it gets the same ~12Hz. Tested with coax to the scope, same deal (attached) though 11.36Hz was more common than the jump to 13Hz that made me average it to 12Hz. 🤷

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2023, 11:34:15 pm
content: Quote from: oz2cpu on August 22, 2023, 03:14:07 pmThis might be a "DC" measurement but with flipping the polarity to remove thermal EMF and other offsets, so the 12Hz would be the flipping rate, but I'm not sure about this. Might take a look later.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2023, 02:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 22, 2023, 11:34:15 pmI'm curious if it's the same on yours and the other LCRs discussed here. Also curious if it actually matters.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2023, 10:08:31 pm
content: I asked about it, and this is what one of the ST guys said:Quote

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2023, 12:35:42 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 24, 2023, 10:08:23 pmThis thread died down a bit but I was wondering if you were still running the ST2832 firmware?And do you generally use that or are you sticking to the original firmware day to day and only using the other firmware to play around with?Also it is bizarre that based on your data you posted above even the TH2830 original firmware seems to have some strange readings (100nH)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2023, 01:05:55 am
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 14, 2023, 12:35:42 amI do still run the ST2832 FW. It still has a couple bugs, but otherwise is excellent. I'm hoping ST acquires a new FW version and shares it, but it's been radio silence from them for a while. Understandable, since I didn't actually purchase from them.Maybe somebody with an ST purchased device could reach out for newer firmware. 😉

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 11:16:34 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 14, 2023, 01:05:55 amI may have missed it in this thread, but where did you get the original TH2830 firmware? (and what was the date code)I bought a TH2830 from AliExpress and it has firmware with date code "2022-05-31"Any chance you could try get the latest from the Sourcetronic folks, or maybe you can tell me how exactly you asked them for it? (did you just email?)I'm hesitant to do go backward in time in terms of firmware given your previous experience, not to mention bugs that have been (hopefully) been fixed

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 12:17:14 pm
content: Ok so update after playing with the meter some more.My TH2830 was calibrated 2023-12-05 (YY-MM-DD) based on the report with the meter (yeah wow, buying from AliExpress factory store has some advantages I guess).The meter was double boxed and sealed with Tonghui tape, so I doubt they replaced the reportThe firmware for my TH2830 is clearly newer than any available on this thread and the version I have has the following that KungFuJosh was missing:1. Arbitrary frequency up to 100kHZ2. DCR measurementWhat is missing:1. Frequency > 100kHz2. Bias adjustment, the item is there but it shows "----" and no amount of pressing and messing with it makes it available.I'm not quite willing to risk the calibration and bugs in exchange for those two features.

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 12:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 19, 2023, 12:17:14 pmSorry for being out of topic but you ordered from aliexpress 3-4 days ago and you already got it?

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 02:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 19, 2023, 12:17:14 pm1) Believe the TH2830 offers 5 digit resolution (display) for all frequencies from 50 to 100KHz, ours does2) The 2830 has no built in DC Bias (enabled), think this comes with the 2832. If you build the DC Bias Adapter we disclosed, then you have much more DC Bias Range than what the 2832 offers, so capability is easily available.Best,

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 02:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 19, 2023, 12:17:14 pmAny link to the Tonghui Aliexpress factory store?

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 02:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 19, 2023, 02:29:34 pmHi Nico,I bought my unit from this shop (3 years ago):https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10000131204659.htmlI don't think that is the factory store.Also, considering the very shitty support, I would advise against Tonghui.I have never received any firmware updates or bug fixes ...Cheers,rudi

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 04:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on December 19, 2023, 02:58:01 pmAgreed!QuoteDuly noted! I didn't forget about your earlier remark about Tonghui!

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 05:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: pope on December 19, 2023, 12:41:42 pmYep, they shipped it with DHL.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 05:08:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 19, 2023, 02:29:34 pmSorry I was thinking of the East Tester ET35 which I tried to order from the East Tester Factory Store.I got the TH2830 here:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32488268754.htmlIf you go to the store's feedback you should see my customer feedback in the top there for this meter.My cost was $962.07 from the store and an additional $81.78 once it got here on customs and clearance fees. My country has 15% tax on 110% of the item value (yeah I know weird calculation). And there is a $10 flat DHL clearance fee regardless if you pay any VAT (which is only paid on items above about $15 of value).I suspect they understated the value because based on my calculations I should have paid more.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 05:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on December 19, 2023, 02:10:06 pmI was actually looking to make a BOM for your board. I only have reasonable shipping from RS electronics. They are excellent actually but they have a more limited selection, so I needed to change out some components (ie. EPCOS/TDK Film caps & Vishay electrolytic caps, TE Connectivity BNCs but look identical and such tiny things)My opinion the first 3 digits after the decimal are useful most of the time, after that I think the meter has too much noise for me to consider it seriously. But the resistance values at least are 100% identical to my Keithley 2000 for about 20 or so resistors I did a quick test on using Kelvin Clips. Down to 3 decimal points, it is pretty insane for them to agree so well.Sadly I don't have a capacitance/inductor standard or meter I really trust. I compared to some of my cheap handhelds, surprisingly the UNI-T UT61E was the closest. The rest were like out there (all over the place, how many measurements I took is how many differences I had). Only the UT61E and the TH2830 were at least same ballpark. I know they measure differently, but I just wanted to compare against SOMETHING. I'll see if I can get my hands on some caps and inductors with really good tolerances on my next RS/Digikey order.I also already opened the meter and it uses an R core transformer, I thought I read other people had Toroidal transformers or something.I'll take some pics a bit later today/tomorrow so we can compare.I've also ordered the SMD fixture which was $45 shipped (postal however).Looks like the one you have from the outside, I guess when I open it up we'll see what is cooking.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 05:32:35 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 19, 2023, 05:02:43 pmThe Tonghui is not avaible for me(country)and the sourcetronic costs 600€ more..

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 05:50:55 pm
content: These pictures were taken in my bathroom because it is night and it has the most light output per sq/m. Sorry it is what it is for now.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 05:51:32 pm
content: I really struggled to get good internal pics, so if you guys want more I'd have to take it during the day outside or something to hopefully get some useable pictures. I haven't looked at the other pictures available online for this too closely, so I'm not sure if it worth taken more pictures

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 05:52:23 pm
content: R core transformer. I've never seen one in real life before, but I assume from the look that it has very low common mode noise.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 06:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 19, 2023, 05:32:35 pmI went into this LCR thing thinking I'd spend $500 max. $1050 later. Still, with all the options available, I didn't want to buy something crappy and then spend this amount anyway a year later out of frustration.Near the end there I was just considering getting the DER-EE DE5000 (I have no LCR meters at all, so even the DE5000 is a massive "upgrade" from nothing). Everything else was expensive, really expensive to ship or I simply didn't trust it (ie. East Tester).So I definitely understand your pain. You'll have to fix the Hioki

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 06:23:15 pm
content: QuoteI'm working on it, or at least my motivation would be much higher if I had a service manual or at least a wiring diagram.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 06:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 19, 2023, 05:50:55 pmDo you grow weed there?

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 06:42:04 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 19, 2023, 06:26:40 pmLOL wut. Why?My apartment has pendulum lights (single hanging light per room).Except the bathroom that has two for a very small room.I don't have it in me to rewire the place (the ceiling is cast, so moving lights is a massive amount of work).Space is at a premium here,its right next to a mountain and not much space.Anyway the rooms all have 150w equivalent Philips LEDs which in the bathroom, in person, has insanely good light.Other large rooms not so much.I should move to a house out in the burbs.Anyway back to topic at hand.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2023, 07:57:39 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on December 19, 2023, 11:16:34 amI got the original version from another user. Good luck getting anything from Tongui, their support is terrible. You're welcome to try and ask though.I also wouldn't likely risk the firmware change without a backup copy of your current firmware.If you can, please go to the firmware update screen, and share what details it says (version numbers etc.)

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 01:53:00 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 19, 2023, 07:57:39 pmAppears I have the same hardware revision as your photo.Still version 1 with a newer date.Someone really needs to explain to these folks how version numbers work.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 01:59:09 am
content: This thing has a really annoying buzz.Is that all down to the fan?I'm thinking of replacing that fan with a 40x40x20mm Noctua fan, standard fan is 40x40x10 ARX fan

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 03:11:45 am
content: Probably the fan. I can kinda hear what you mean, but the fan isn't all that loud. My SDM3055 fan is louder (but a clean fan sound instead of the weird buzzy one).Let us know how your replacement goes. I might do the same at some point.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 04:39:11 am
content: I just checked the stock fan, it's 2-pin and 5VDC. 40x10 is stock, but there looks like there's enough room for a 20mm depth if you prefer that.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 09:44:23 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on January 06, 2024, 04:39:11 amYeah I saw, I ordered a 40x20mm instead, should increase the airflow in any case (not arrived yet, with all the holidays things are going super slow)That all said, I have sneaking suspicion the noise of the fan is going to be due to them driving the fan with PWM.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 11:24:18 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on January 06, 2024, 09:44:23 pmI guess we'll both see, I also ordered one. 😉 I ordered theNoctua NF-A4x20 5V. I should have it Monday. I'm sure the crappy fan contributes too.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 09:39:24 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on January 06, 2024, 11:24:18 pmSame fan I orderedI just don't live in the US so it takes quite a bit longer to reach me unfortunately

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 03:13:58 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on January 07, 2024, 09:39:24 amHello,I too do not live in the US.Noctua FANs are made in Austria. I find it usually best to order on their EBay shop.Very fast and reliable service !Best Regards,rudi

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 08:07:32 pm
content: Well, that worked great. A nice consistent/smooth fan sound. It's quieter, more efficient, and the buzzing is gone.

author: Szybkijanek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 10:37:58 am
content: Hi, is it possible to provide modified firmware from the th/st2832 200kHz model for th2830?

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 01:24:43 pm
content: Quote from: Szybkijanek on January 08, 2024, 10:37:58 amHi Janek,I was trying to extract the firmware, but it is protected (security fuse engaged).We need a source for the firmware, which we so far do not have.Best regards,rudi

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 01:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: luudee on January 08, 2024, 01:24:43 pmTheimprovedfirmware I'm currently using is in this post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/th2830-vs-th2832/msg4969857/#msg4969857There are only a couple bugs in that, not sure if everybody will have the same issues.The most recent stock 2830 fw I have is attached. It has more features including arbitrary frequency entry that the 2830 didn't previously have.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2024, 09:07:07 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on January 07, 2024, 08:07:32 pmMy fan holes were 3mm.I had to severely cut up the rubber grommets from Noctua to fit.I wasn't down to drill out the holes in the instrument.Alternatively I could have used some 3mm BHCS to mount them (original screws are far too short)But I seeing Josh' picture I decided to give the grommets the opportunity.---If I take pure fan/air noise, the Noctua is louder than the original fan IMO.The original fan had an annoying buzzing which made it far more annoying, but if you ignore that, the pure fan noise "part" of the sound is either same or slightly higher on the Noctua.Overall I still think the upgrade is worth it, the fan moves a LOT more air and you don't have this annoying buzzing noise constantly going on.Also Noctua fans are rated for a LOT of hours, it is unlikely the instrument will need a new fan in the next 20 years based on how much I use it.Noctua is really up there in terms of their fan engineering (quite a few very nice videos about it on YouTube).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2024, 01:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on January 10, 2024, 09:07:07 amI might have used the original screws inserted backwards to pull the metal mounts out of the chassis using an angled plyers. 😉My stock fan was obviously older than yours, so for me it got quieter. It's comparatively quiet now, but same as you, the consistent sound is much less annoying than the buzz the stock fan had.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2024, 02:07:34 pm
content: (slight OT if people want to ignore)Quote from: luudee on January 07, 2024, 03:13:58 pmUnfortunately getting things from America is just a lot easier than getting things from the EU.For some reason everything is always more expensive and more work to get from the EU (EU stores are much less helpful with regards to export)I don't get it because ordering from China and Japan (when things are actually made there), is cheaper unlike the EU situation.So for example, ordering a Makita tool from Japan is much cheaper than the US.But if you take Wera tools, they are more expensive ordering it from Germany than the US.And not just shipping, the actual tool is cheaper from the USSo basically I don't even bothering checking EU prices anymore.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 09:19:01 pm
content: Here's a stock twenty eight thirty fw dated 12/2023. Hopefully we'll have a slightly different model'simprovedversion if our friend has some time. 😉

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 09:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on January 12, 2024, 09:19:01 pmWow that is newer than even the one I got with my meter.Have you tried it yet?Which meter branding does it have?How on earth did you get this?Any chance you could do some testing on that baby?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 09:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on January 12, 2024, 09:25:54 pmIt's installed, and it has the ST branding on it.Quote from: GnomeZA on January 12, 2024, 09:25:54 pmThe ST people are AWESOME, that's how. That's why when anybody asks, I tell them to get the ST version if they can. The TH people will straight up ignore you until the end of time.Quote from: GnomeZA on January 12, 2024, 09:25:54 pmI plan to. 😉

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 10:02:17 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on January 12, 2024, 09:19:01 pmHere, test and report.Code:Header: 414243446C0B070024951300Signature: "ABCD" (MAGIC OK)Block1 Size: 00070B6C [00000018-00070B83]Block1 Checksums: 385C [00070B84-000743DF]Block2 Size: 00139524 [000743E0-001AD903]Block2 Checksums: 9CA9 [001AD904-001B75AC]Block1 - Checksum is OK!Block2 - Checksum is OK!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 10:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on January 12, 2024, 10:02:17 pmYou're awesome, thank you!!Flashing went fine, and I'm happy to see I can do 100Ω DCR test now. I'll let it warm up, and then I'll do a full test with my test board.Thanks!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 02:00:09 am
content: Well, looks like things are better than they were for sure. This certainly appears to be the best firmware yet.The bigger issues like 100Ω DCR and 100kΩ at 200kHz both look better.The ~700mH inductor looks better than it was, but it still appears to be too far of a jump between those frequencies.Results attached.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 11:26:12 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on January 13, 2024, 02:00:09 amAll the results in that document look well within tolerance. Very promising!Quote from: KungFuJosh on January 13, 2024, 02:00:09 amAh you mean its inductance looks completely different between 1kHz and 10kHz?With inductors and changing frequency like that, I would expect some inductors to behave in unexpected ways.So I'm not completely sure whether to think this is a meter/calibration issue or more data needed.Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing this off, just trying to think through it in my head.All of this said, the results still look incredible!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 04:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: GnomeZA on January 13, 2024, 11:26:12 amYeah, I don't understand how they work well enough to speculate on that, but referring back to myprevious testwhen I used the Shannon ST42 tweezers for reference:The different for the ST42 in those two ranges was 37mH, but for the 2830 it was a difference of 150mH. Now the difference is only 100mH, which is still a bit much by comparison. Maybe somebody else has an excuse for it. 😉QuoteYes, I'm very happy with the improvements now. I'd say it's stable enough to be more trustworthy than any of their previous firmwares.100KΩ at 100 and 200kHz is still very slightly out of spec, but not as bad as previously. I may test with a different fixture to see if that improves the accuracy in those ranges.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 05:05:52 pm
content: QuoteGreat work man, and this makes me laugh:

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 05:40:45 pm
content: I've made the switch on my meter to this firmware.Thanks again @tv84 and also for the verification @KungFuJosh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 11:06:55 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on January 13, 2024, 05:05:52 pmMe too 🤣I'd love to know how though. Putting D on the screen isn't difficult, but I have no idea how to cycle through those ranges. Maybe they're based on the impedance range option? I dunno.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 11:13:21 pm
content: This cannot be recorded in this way either; it is a calculated variable that only "works once", for example.You had intended 1nF/1kHz for this, then you only get one value, namely the value for 1kHz.In your next table, I would not include this as a range to be tested.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 11:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on January 13, 2024, 11:13:21 pmI copied the note from the cal cert that was shared:

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 11:43:52 pm
content: Ok,Then I have to say it the way you wrote it in your table.It may also mean something other than the DF that comes to mind.Edit:Ah, this could be different 10nF caps...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 11:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on January 13, 2024, 11:43:52 pmI still have no idea how to test it. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2024, 12:08:44 am
content: It can only be that capacitors with different dissipation factors but the same capacitance have been used.This is because the frequency and capacitance are the same for all ranges (10nF/1kHz).But now find the right capacitors for it...Or the different losses were created "artificially".Tonghui should know.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2024, 12:38:16 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on January 14, 2024, 12:08:44 am🤣🤣🤣 They should, but if they do, they'll never tell me. They'reterrible.I sent my results to my ST contact. If he knows, he might tell me.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2024, 12:43:43 am
content: Please report then.QuoteSame here with Hioki, East Tester...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2024, 12:47:46 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on January 14, 2024, 12:43:43 amEven Hioki? Is it cause of it being an older model? That's disappointing. Hioki at least has firmware and stuff available on their website. Tonghui is douchebags about it to everybody. It's tedious to get anything from them, and certainly nothing has been available on their website.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2024, 01:09:00 am
content: QuoteThis is something I hadn't even posted here in the forum, I actually got a direct response from hioki earlier this year, probably because I contacted them with my company address this time.Previously the distributors said there was nothing for my LCR because support was discontinued in 2015.Now Hioki themselves had replied to me and written that they don't release anything to the public.At least they are honest.Tonghui and East Tester lie to you directly and say they have nothing.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2024, 01:13:35 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on January 14, 2024, 01:09:00 amYup. Tonghui told ST their newest fw was 2021. Then I sent ST a photo of Gnome's newer firmware version. After that is when TH gave ST the 2023 fw. I dunno if that's correlation or causation, but it's certainly interesting...and ridiculous.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2024, 11:54:43 pm
content: "Today" I got the new firmware for our ST2830 from Sourcetronic (the guy asked me if I knew about the new firmware through a certain "Josh"...).I then asked again what exactly had been changed, the question was passed on and I may get an answer soon (which I will then post here).This is interesting because I have to pay attention to the calibration.

author: GnomeZA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2024, 12:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on January 17, 2024, 11:54:43 pmAny chance you could also share this ST2830 firmware Martin?I think having both is not per-se a bad thing

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2024, 02:23:50 pm
content: Hi,No problem - tomorrow..

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2024, 06:11:33 pm
content: A little late, but not forgotten...https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VnfhRBVc8n2ndyWcnriZIla9GFPnQXkD/view?usp=sharing

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2024, 01:36:26 am
content: One of my contacts at Sourcetronic was kind enough to share how to do the Dissipation Factor test. He said:QuoteSo I tried it out, and it works. I threw different value resistors in series, and it gave DF values similar to what was expected using math (eww, gross)...just kidding, I used acalculator. 🤣Measured Rs of the cap was about 29Ω at 1kHz. So using some standard R values, I can do something like this:29Ω = 0.00018 (cap only)79Ω = 0.00049 (29Ω + 50Ω)162Ω = 0.00101 (29Ω + 133Ω)797Ω = 0.00506 (29Ω + 768Ω)1609Ω = 0.01010 (29Ω + 1.58k)16029Ω = 0.10071 (29Ω + 16k)160029Ω = 1.00530 (29Ω + 160k)I'm sure those numbers aren't perfectly accurate, but they should be close enough to test it on a new test board. 😉Thanks,JoshPS. Abbreviating Dissipation or Dissipation Factor as just D, leaves some hilarious statements out of context.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2024, 02:51:32 pm
content: Here's an update on the Dissipation Factor test values.Tested at 1kHz:1nF cap (no series resistor) -> 0.0001050Ω (actually 49.9) -> 0.00050133Ω -> 0.00100768Ω -> 0.005001.58 kΩ -> 0.0100016 kΩ -> 0.10000160 kΩ -> 1.00000Those values are pretty spot on for the cap I used. I used Panasonic 0.1% 25ppm SMT resistors.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:21:53 pm
content: In case anybody is curious,you can correct for cable length on these meters. Not yet?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:23:38 pm
content: Try switching to 1m or more....does ist work? On our ST2830 not(It is even described in the manual that it won´t work), but we didn´t have the latest firmware.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:28:14 pm
content: Oh, that's both annoying and interesting. It says "no cable data installed." Maybe time to email ST and ask them if they know anything about it.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:35:44 pm
content: Yes, I noticed this when I connected the fixture from Aliexpress to our ST2830 last week and saw 0m on the display.But we always use the Kelvinclips, so I tried to switch it after the tests and it didn't work.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:38:07 pm
content: Our TH2830 doesn't allow cable compensation either. This likely entails some calibration parameters and setup with test fixtures, there is also the issue with cable propagation constants which may not be the same for all cables.If we did the math properly, at 100KHz a 1M cable with Propagation constant of 0.66 has a phase delay of 0.1818 degrees.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 10:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 20, 2024, 09:38:07 pmEastTester claims to have cable correction in their ET35 series. Maybe they're just pretending? 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 10:30:09 pm
content: They have it and it works, sorry.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 11:23:57 pm
content: Oh, weird! Mine just starting working too! 😉😉

author: mow
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 03:15:43 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on August 20, 2024, 09:28:14 pmJust that it doesn't work, sorry.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 03:28:44 am
content: Quote from: mow on August 23, 2024, 03:15:43 amFair enough. I'm sure you don't want to email them for 2 years to get them to fix it either. 😉

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 06:46:45 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 20, 2024, 09:38:07 pmCalculation is perfect. c is not.360/(299792458*0,66/100e3)= 181,944051926264754314e-3Just joking...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 12:20:25 pm
content: Yesterday, I received an ST2830 that I was able to purchase at a reasonable price. A friend had informed me about it.Visually, it still looks very good; the handle and bumpers have been removed so that the device can be screwed underneath something.Initial tests with C, R, and RDC show no weaknesses, and more will follow.The firmware is outdated, but a small 1GB stick is arriving tomorrow, and then I will update it.The fan is a bit loud, but that should be the smallest problem.Overall, I am very satisfied to have gotten what is probably the best meter before buying a Hioki or R&S, and at a good price.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 12:30:05 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 29, 2025, 12:20:25 pmI already ordered another Noctua NF-A4x20 5V for mine.However, the Hioki fan would drown out 5 ST283Xs. It's somewhere between a vacuum cleaner and a jet engine.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 01:20:34 pm
content: This fan is also somewhat “final” in terms of its service life, meaning it also makes additional noise... It needs to be replaced.Now that this ST2830 is mine, I took a closer look inside.Very impressive quality, very well thought out.Power supply and “digital” components separated from the sensitive front end, front end double-sided shielded, low-stray R-core transformer, elaborate filtering before the transformer...Now I'm not surprised that many brands are turning to TongHui.What's more surprising is the relatively low price considering the effort involved.As I said, impressive.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 01:27:37 pm
content: Their hardware design is excellent. It's too bad TongHui's support is garbage. We're lucky that Sourcetronic is awesome at that part.The fan choice is funny though; it's 40x10. I already did 40x20 last time, and that's what I ordered again. But you could easily put a 40mm cube in there.Can you check the thread size on the fan mounting screws?Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 01:36:26 pm
content: Hi,It´s metric, M3...I have now ordered a Noctua A4x20.Martin

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 02:48:12 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 29, 2025, 01:36:26 pmThank you! Did you also get the length by any chance? We'll need to add 10mm to it. Their dumb screws go backwards compared to most fan mounting. On the old one, I popped the nuts off the sheet metal, and used the rubber fasteners, but I dunno if I wanna do that this time....and you double checked it was the 5V version of the fan, right?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 03:04:32 pm
content: If Amazon doesn't mess up, it'll be the 5V version.The screws are 14 mm long, including the captive washers.(Perhaps the topic title could be changed to something more general, e.g. TH/ST2830/32 LCR Meter)

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 03:49:13 pm
content: the buzzer if it is, next to the fan how loud it is lollEDIT as a compare have been done between theses ST28xx and the ET4xxx series / ET45xx

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 04:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on May 29, 2025, 12:30:05 pmThe Hioki is more like between a Jet Engine and the SpaceX Starship

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 04:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on May 29, 2025, 03:49:13 pmThe ET series has cable compensation (that supposedly works). Comparing otherwise is no comparison IMO....although ET at least pretends to try and help, while TH will just ignore you or lie to you (more than ET will lie). Sourcetronic wins in customer service by far. They communicate, they're honest, and they try to help. TH OEMs for ST, so you get the great hardware, but with the excellent ST support.I think Martin should post some comparison measurements. Get to work!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 04:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on May 29, 2025, 04:07:17 pmIt's true!...but less likely to explode!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 04:11:40 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on May 29, 2025, 03:49:13 pmIn terms of buzzer volume, the ST2830 clearly “wins” against others...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 04:13:20 pm
content: Mike&Josh,Then you haven't heard the LeCry WaveJet or Rigol DHO4000...Well, it's possible that they are quieter, as I'm not familiar with the Hioki.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 04:48:54 pm
content: Clearly not! 🤣Some manufacturers look for airflow, static pressure, etc. Hioki said "turn it up to 11...thousand!" Louder means stronger, right???

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 05:18:55 pm
content: Reminds me of “Boris the Blade” in the movie ‘Snatch’ when he sells a bigger revolver:“...The gun is heavy, heavy is reliable, and if it jams, you can still use it to smash someone's skull.”

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 05:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 29, 2025, 04:11:40 pmHard to convey just how loud the power-on sound is! I've been meaning to open my LCR meter up and disconnect it. There's no sensible way of switching the device on, without putting a finger in one ear, and pushing your other ear into your shoulder while pressing with power button with your remaining hand.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2025, 05:36:39 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 29, 2025, 05:18:55 pmExactly. On the same token- "Are the fans in your TE too loud? No problem! Drown them ALL out with a Hioki LCR!"

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2025, 01:31:40 pm
content: I might also try Sunon MF40200V3-1000U-A99 fans. They're spec'd very similarly to the Noctua, and appear to surpass the stock fan in every way...and cost less than the Noctua stuff especially since it's hard to get the 5V version in the US right now.I'll test both new fans on my PSU, and see how they sound.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2025, 03:40:49 pm
content: They are still available for purchase, “small” USB sticks with little storage space.Today, I received a 1GB stick, which I formatted with FAT 16.It will remain the “ST2830 Stick”...I installed the latest firmware I knew of on the stick and then updated the device.At first, it was a bit annoying to get to the update menu, but in the end, it was easy:When you turn it on, press and hold the trigger button until the corresponding menu appears.This may be the case for devices with newer firmware; here it was slightly different:Hold down the trigger, turn it on.The boot screen appears and “Trigger=Setup” is displayed in the top right corner. When this happens, release the trigger button and press it again.Then you're in.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2025, 05:00:40 pm
content: Congrats on upgrading to Ver1.00. 😉I don't remember if you're supposed to hold it down before powering it on. It's been a while since I had one. 🤷

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2025, 05:03:28 pm
content: QuoteYep, kind of confusing.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2025, 07:15:11 pm
content: The Noctua arrived today— 40 mm fans are so cute...Good:All necessary adapters are included, including one for 2-pin connections.This is also needed, and connecting it was easy.Disconnect the cable from the old fan and connect it to the adapter using the crimp connectors provided, and you're done.Since I bought the 20 mm thick version, I was a bit unlucky at first because I only have M3x20 mm screws here.After thinking about it for a moment, I realized that you don't necessarily need to use long screws, so I used M3x8 mm screws, which hold just as well and have the added advantage that you can't bend the fan body by tightening the long screws too much.Then switched on, running... dead silent.However, when you close the case again, the fan is audible, although not as bad as the old fan.The case with the small fan holes is clearly the “culprit” when it comes to noise.And then something else occurred to me.I noticed the small battery nearby and thought, “Why not measure its voltage?”Bingo...Instead of 3V, it was only 0.9V. It needed replacing.It's a CR1220. I still had some new CR1225 batteries, which just about fit in terms of height.They should last longer because they have a slightly higher capacity.I'll find out tomorrow what the battery does in the device because I set the date and time in the system setup.If it's still correct tomorrow, then the battery was responsible for that.

author: Traceless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2025, 08:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on May 29, 2025, 04:07:17 pmYou haven't had a jet-engine fan until you tried the high-power Delta fans,

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2025, 08:40:58 pm
content: yep - some of those fan choices make me think that folks designing have have either hearing issues or never tested results...it is not a separate room rack mounted equipment that nobody cares about noise

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2025, 09:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 31, 2025, 07:15:11 pmI don't like long cables in there, so last time I did it, I cut the cables short, and used crimps directly without adapters:I'll do the same thing again this time, but it will probably be the other brand.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2025, 09:55:24 pm
content: Or something like that.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2025, 08:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on May 31, 2025, 07:15:11 pmYep, the battery is responsible for backing up the date and time.Previously, the settings were lost after switching off, but not anymore.Since the capacity of this 3V cell is really low, you should measure it once you have opened the device.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2025, 08:00:21 pm
content: I got the LCR in today. I swapped the jumper wire to convert it to 120V, swapped out the new fan, and turned it on. Already looks happier as a 2832.And, yes, the battery is dead. 1.3V. I also have a bunch of 1225s; but Amazon is bringing me 1220s today, since I knew to order them ahead. Thanks. 😉😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2025, 09:33:20 pm
content: Not too shabby. I'll do a full comparison test with the IM3570 this week.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2025, 09:39:37 pm
content: Formatted FAT32, the Kingston 64GB DataTraveler Micro DTMC3G2/64GB works fine.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2025, 09:46:36 pm
content: I'm hesitating to hack the meter to 200 kHz because I'm afraid it would then have to be recalibrated properly.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2025, 09:49:19 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 02, 2025, 09:46:36 pmFirmware doesn't change the calibration. If you're going to send it out for calibration/adjustment, the 200kHz frequency should be available during that process.Test 10 things. Switch firmware. Test them again. Switch again. See any difference?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2025, 09:54:51 pm
content: QuoteThat's exactly the problem.There will definitely be an internal calibration menu, but neither we nor a calibration laboratory know what this menu looks like or how to access it.The Sourcetronic laboratory will know, but send them the ST2830 and write that it needs to be calibrated up to 200 kHz, as the unit has been hacked.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2025, 10:24:12 pm
content: It's not hacked, it'sliberated! You can always ask them their opinion on the subject; they're well aware of this thread and have posted in it. Or you could keep the sticker at home with you. Or put a little 2 at the end with a Sharpie. 🤣

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2025, 11:59:42 pm
content: There's some other nice features on there too...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2025, 09:16:46 pm
content: Yes, not just bias...The measurement frequency not only goes higher, but also lower, to 20Hz.This means there are significantly more frequency steps in between, over 15,000 instead of 34.They could have just made it “stepless”...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2025, 11:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 03, 2025, 09:16:46 pmI think the newer firmware for both models is stepless. You should be able to enter any frequency (within the stated range) you want (use the keypad).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2025, 06:35:55 pm
content: I compared the stock fan, Noctua, and Sunon fans. I tested in open air connected to my PSU. Noctua and Sunon sounded smooth, and about the same volume. The stock fan was maybe quieter, but had an annoying faint buzzing sound. Which seems to be common to that fan.The LCR's case turns into an acoustic chamber, amplifying whatever the fan sound is. The two bigger fans have lower volume and lower pitch, smooth sounds, and the stock fan's buzz becomes loud and annoying.I wonder if adding some acoustic dampening would be helpful here. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2025, 07:43:53 pm
content: The ventilation holes on the side will also play a significant role, as air must be forced through them.If you want to keep your ST2830, you could cut out the area in a circle so that the fan can “breathe.”Finally, you could cover the thin sheet metal housing with bitumen foil to reduce any resonance.Maybe I'll do all that...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 12:51:39 am
content: I just ordered this to try out:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B6181QSK

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:20:22 am
content: usually it was way simplier to detach the fan and add a rubber gasket between it and chassis to stop the vibrations - also some fan mounts (instead of screws) like those noctua adds to their fans often work wondersbtw if chassis falls into resonance it is due to improperly screwed together whole form (something is loose), bad project or too small weight to cancell the vibrations (aka put weight on top)as whole chassis is also a heat exchanger (not all heat is transferred out via fan even if something may appear cold while touched) then adding from inside an vibration insulation material also makes extra thermal insulation - this is a metrology equipment and it is designed for certain temp inside - lets not forget thateventually I would put a silicon or thin piece of that dampening material between chassis and top cover to limit transfer of vibrations furtherbut I would start with dealing with source of vibrations and properly mount the fan itself or replace it for something proper on terms of airflow and not so horrific on other aspects

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:32:47 am
content: It's not regular vibration noise. It's acoustic amplification of the sound the fan produces. I obviously won't cover the cover 100%. 😉Honestly, it's not even that loud. I have other stuff on the bench that's much louder. This is more of an experiment for amusement. I don't know that I would keep the dampener in anyway. If I consider doing that, I'll do some thermal testing too.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:38:27 am
content: I get it I have migraines so I know what you mean - I am sensitive to some sounds more than others - while making very silent computers years ago as part of my income I did noticed that shape/size and location of holes throu which fan pushes the air plays great role in noise producedhad few situations that I cutted out everything from air way then added classic fan grill to fix this issue (but some fans have not nice noise themselves thus I would try different one firstyou can also take this one out and start it for a moment to check

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:47:18 am
content: Quote from: kmoonwalker on June 05, 2025, 01:38:27 amAlready did that. See reply #403. 😉

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 03:29:22 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 05, 2025, 01:47:18 amsorry I somehow missed thatthen use one of those two other fans + glue that sound dampening material over it like half of fans lenght towards fan sides + 3 fan lenghts forward/back of airflow - should significantly reduce italso add a gasketother option that will conduct some part of the heat (but expensive to say) is to purchase those large surface but very thin silicone thermal pads that have one side with glue (you know what I mean) and lay out the whole chassis with them + a bit more airflow fan with better noise. even thin will most probably seriously limit the echo effect inside

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 03:36:42 am
content: more drastic way but should remove the sound from inside is to mount the larger fan like 12/14 cm with some cardboard tube or other shape to accomodate size towards fan vent opening in chassisit will not look good but can be really silent solutionthen if good regarding sound and thermals you can cut and glue together few plastic elements to proper shape or 3D print something (but I think considering the size faster to get together elements traditional way)sometimes interior of device is causing some annoying ie hissing etc sounds only because of certain airflow throu it - even if fan is not inside chassis - then one cannot do very much other than new chassis

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 03:40:21 am
content: more or less like this with sound insulation from my experiences but it is always process of trial and correction so first use some ducktape, you knowalso a side wall against fan is good to be equipped with some of that

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 12:24:11 pm
content: My thought is to go much simpler than that. The crap I ordered should break up the acoustic amplification well enough with some strategically placed pieces.I think I'll run a thermal test while I wait for it. 🤔OTOH, I dunno if it will be useful at all. Martin is probably correct about the vent hole shape being the main source of the noise. We'll see what happens.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:12:40 pm
content: Take the removed housing in your hand and gently blow on the holes....

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:36:01 pm
content: Sounds like a setup for a joke. 😉All you need to do is block a small portion of the vent hole, and you can hear a huge difference.I'm still gonna try that other stuff, because I think the echo chamber is contributing, but we'll see.

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:36:09 pm
content: I have the same issue with fan noise on my TH2827C. It is quite noisy, not as bad as some of my HP boat anchors but enough to be irritating.I tried a Papst fan, 612 F/2-638 which has a similar flow rate. On the bench connected to a 12V PSU it was nice and quiet. Lovely I thought, let's get rid of the stock fan and fit this. But it made almost no difference. I guess I can live with it.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: chilternview on June 05, 2025, 01:36:09 pmDid you stock fan have a similar annoying buzz that these stock fans have? More than the fan volume, the buzzing noise was annoying.

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 01:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 05, 2025, 01:40:10 pmNo - no buzz, just quite loud. I'm slightly surprised it needs a fan at all.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 02:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: chilternview on June 05, 2025, 01:54:58 pmIs it also a cute little fan? With the stock fan in an ST2832, it's around 33C right now internal temp using a thermocouple. Room temp is around 23.8C.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 02:29:15 pm
content: I watched some vids of those meters and I think that I may found a reason of your noise issuefrom what I did notices it has a fan on side and other small opening on same side that allow air suction inside?Are there any more holes for airflow than on pic?If not you need to drill a bit more holes around small group of holes (on both internal and external chassis parts if both have those (dunno how it looks on that part exactly - never opened this one) to make for better unobstructed airflow - due to it being smaller it will cause that hissing noise (plus air coming inside via everey small distance between covers etcStill this may be designed on purpose to keep something at certain temperature would be worth a shot checking internals with thermal camera after some longer time of running closed and open and if accuracy varies

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 02:32:33 pm
content: if this does not help then shape of holes and distance play role so next step is to remove all and mount a grill type like I posted before - only other thing that can make it more hissing could be that high internals are pretty close to any of those openings

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 02:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 05, 2025, 02:16:15 pmThis is the stock fan. The papst one I tried to replace it is almost identical in appearance. I've not measured the internal case temp after warming up, but the case itself does not get appreciably warm in use.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 02:48:00 pm
content: 4700 RPM - no wonder it can cause whole chassis to resonateit reminds me some 4 cm fans mounted in 1U rack units of power amps that were causing whole rack cabinet to vibrate and we had no idea at first what the hell was going on at beginning lol

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 02:49:32 pm
content: is there a place for thicker one? like 25 or more mm?or larger fan like 80 mm with making more holes for airflow?alternative way (but lot of work) would be to install inside a large fan like 80/120 mm mounted on some angle and adding air ducts to force the airflow from it to defined vent

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 03:09:48 pm
content: https://noctua.at/en/products/fan/nf-a6x25-flx/specificationif fits?Original is 44 m3/h and this one 29,2 m³/h but you can add their L.N.A. to make it 23,5 m³/hthen fan itself has: Acoustical noise with L.N.A. 14,5 dB(A)https://noctua.at/en/products/fan/nf-a6x25-flx/specificationairflow will be very similar so thermals should be OK as you have AC

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 03:24:32 pm
content: For the ST2832 there are intake vents on the other side of the housing. The small hole near the fan is for the buzzer.The noise from this isn't the fan as much as it is the fan cutout design, and maybe the acoustics. We'll find out later how much that effects the noise.Average right now is around 34C internal temp. If it stays there for a while, I'll turn on max DC bias and see if that has an effect.I probably won't use a thermal camera. The internal temp should be enough to make comparisons with any changes.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 03:49:38 pm
content: With 5VDC bias active, there's no significant change. AVG is 34.4C instead of 34.35C. Room temp is also hotter, so which every caused that tiny shift isn't exciting anyway. Room at 25C now.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 04:12:27 pm
content: if there is enough place inside and you have a skill with drilling go with two fans I posted or larger one max 20 dBa - you have now this effect with over 34 dBa from fan itself which is not very nice fan. even 10 dB decrease will make huuge change.They are waay more quiet ones on such setting (thou check the power supply on board if it will handle 160 mAmps cause original one is 90 mAmps (or add some small 230 -12V psu like for leds or whatever they are tiny and good for it.if not I found some thinner one with 24dBahttps://www.tme.eu/pl/details/109r0612f402/wentylatory-dc-12v/sanyo-denki/but you may also need two of them to have similar conditions and you can add some resistor to cut rpm a lil bit making it closer to 20 dBa

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 04:35:45 pm
content: That's far more effort than this warrants. I have much louder stuff on my bench. Any changes to this would need to remain reversible.I could power 10 of these, and one Hioki LCR would drown them out.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 04:54:02 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 05, 2025, 04:35:45 pmthen disconnect internal fan, take it out and put outside through the air hole wires with standard PC fan connector for new one to power it up and easy exchange of fantake one silent 120/140 mm or even 80 mm but this will not be so silent keeping proper airflow and make some cardboard adapter on the exterior and attach it to that side of meter and try - not big work and result is reversible, cheap and should help considerably - if good make plastic adapter looking a bit better or set the meter in such way so this "addition" would not hurt eyes hehethere will be some noise of airflow throu those holes but you will see how it impacts situation

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 05:00:05 pm
content: I'm gonna stick with replacing the stock 40x10 with a 40x20, and see if the acoustic treatment does anything.The primary thing to consider here is that the stock fan has an annoying buzz sound. Swapping with any decent fan will correct that. Any volume reduction is just a bonus.After 2.5 hours warmup, temperate avg is stable around 34.5C with the stock fan.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 05:05:21 pm
content: I assumed it is 60 mm as on #42240 mm are all usually "evil" - you would need some very thick one but still their main freq is usually not nice and cannot be helped much

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 06:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: kmoonwalker on June 05, 2025, 05:05:21 pmNo, he has a higher level LCR from them that goes to 1MHz. The ST2832 uses a 40mm fan. I shared different model numbers in previous replies if you want to look at datasheets.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 10:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 05, 2025, 06:13:24 pmI just went throu and somehow all "datasheets" are not providing info for this model but for its replacements (and much less noisy too)anyways you can do one fan like Martin mounted and second one to push out air on the other side but use some low noise adapter or potentiometer to tune em down with speed to see if helpsother option from Martin's pics would be to instal two such fans on opposite wall and leave that side with current fan as air inlet(would require desoldering cap closest to that side and mounting it via glue on top of remaining there with some cables as legs extenders due to space limitations and bending towards center cables going via that air inlet - that should be easy)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2025, 11:30:46 pm
content: I lost the first hour of the test, but it's still running. With the replacement Sunon 40x20 fan, the temperature appears to average about 4C lower than the stock fan. Current avg is 30.6C.A speed reducer cable with an inline resistor might be a good option for noise reduction. We can target the ~34.5C with these more efficient fans at a lower voltage. Maybe should also test with a higher quality thermocouple than the one I used though. 🤷Anyway, I think that's about as much thought/effort I'm going to put into this since it's really not thaaaaaaaaat loud. 😉

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2025, 01:32:03 am
content: if its good for you then done - that is the target

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2025, 10:21:49 pm
content: Hi,I contacted Sourcetronic mainly because I wanted to know whether they stock the handle and the “rubber bumpers” as spare parts.And while I was at it, I wanted to know if the firmware we have here is the latest version, how they calibrate the LCR, and if there is an adjustment mode (like on the ET4410) to renew the internal factory calibrations if necessary.The answers were essentially as follows:-The handle and bumper are not available as direct replacement parts, but they will see what they can do.-The firmware from the end of 2023 is still up to date.-Calibration would be carried out with L and C references at a test frequency of 1 kHz.-There is no such thing as an internal calibration mode.Hmm...While the first two answers were encouraging, I was disappointed with the rest.I find calibration at only one frequency borderline.At least 100Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz, and 100kHz would be more meaningful.So I won't be having my ST2830 calibrated there.I also don't believe that there is no access to the internal factory calibration.If the device is brand new, it must be calibrated to eliminate the tolerances of the installed components.If it has been repaired, depending on what was defective, this must also be done.So there must be a calibration/adjustment mode.This can be activated either via a key combination or via SCPI commands.But how could this be found out, perhaps via the firmware?I opened the .sec file with a hex editor earlier and found terms such as “Systen Data,” but that's not very helpful.And recompiling is probably not possible.So I guess the only thing left to do is try, try, try.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 12:57:27 am
content: We also know from the calibration data shared earlier in this thread (which I based my cal test chart on) that the factory calibrates across the ranges, not at a single frequency. Any less would be odd.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 01:19:45 am
content: You need to ask Tonghui directly (worth a try) but I dunno if there is something available - perhaps on Chinese internet somewhere where we are unable to dig deep enoughNowadays I think they are rebranded into Techmize

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 02:03:27 am
content: Quote from: kmoonwalker on June 07, 2025, 01:19:45 amTongHui OEMs for at least a dozen brands. Asking them directly is generally pointless; their support is terrible. Sourcetronic's support is excellent, and if they can get the plastics, they will. If they can't, it would be much harder for us to get them from TH directly.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 03:17:10 am
content: I meant procedures not parts - parts they usually sell and it is more a question how the distributor/reseller treats some aspects of after sales services.Some keep stock of typical parts and others are oriented towards selling complete products and eventually shipping them to factory for some refit (saves money invested in stock, labor and time for errors of identyfing parts)Not always what we perceive as good for us is good or preferable from their positionwith TH it is pretty easy actually for common parts as usually things from A, B, C and D brands for example are interchangeable and perhaps differ in color - friends purchased some not working eq for chassis or other stuff years ago if it was cheap.If one distributor is not providing them you can ask another.Here TH is sold by Biall - perhaps they can provide those things Martin needs. The also have a lab for calibration of meters.Biall.com.plhttp://www.biall.com.pl/laboratorium.html(needs to register first then click link on bottom)what you call calibration for us here is not "kalibracja" which is like zeroing but when you want your meter adjusted to have proper indications via special metrological standards you ask for "wzorcowanie z adjustacją" this goes beyond factory cal but also is expensive - still Martin may like that option if they can do it.I never used their services myself but it is worth a shot as some companies I cooperated with purchase equipment from them and usually are happy with cooperation.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 03:31:21 am
content: Don't worry, Martin knows more than 1 cal lab.

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 11:11:44 am
content: I made a little rewrite of Mike Wyatt's python code for plotting frequency sweeps of the Tonghui lcr meters.It should work with the 2830/32 as well as my 2827C. You just need to change the minfreq and maxfreq values at the top of the file.Needs the Keysight IOlibs and PyVisa libraries, and a USB - USB cable for control by USB.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 01:01:56 pm
content: Quote from: chilternview on June 07, 2025, 11:11:44 amNice to see someone with good Python skills clean-up our crude rendition, and incorporate the List FunctionHow much of an overall measurement time improvement do you experience using the List Function?Will try and see how this works with the TH2830, and maybe adapt such for the Hioki IM3536.Anyway, thanks for improving and making available for folksBest

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 01:10:06 pm
content: You could also simply purchase this software for the ST28XX series:https://www.sourcetronic.com/shop/en/st-meter-4-0.html...if it weren't so expensive.

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 01:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on June 07, 2025, 01:01:56 pmNot a huge amount, the main time is still the measurement.Also I've not yet got the 'LIST:MODE SEQ' working to get all the list freqs run in one TRIG, currently using STEP mode and it needs triggering every list entry. That's on the todo list...From what I can see the commands are the same for all the models and in fact mimic the Keysight E4980 syntax so the script should work on those, SOurcetronic and BK Precision lcr meters.I did see Sourcetronic have written a nice gui - but it's something like $250!

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 02:48:39 pm
content: If anyone's tried list mode for the 28XX lcr meters, I'm stuck trying to getLIST:MODE SEQto work (I can get STEP mode to work fine). If I try this (num_pts=10) :Code:usb.write('LIST:MODE SEQ')usb.write('TRIG')for i in range(0, num_pts) :msgBuf = usb.query('FETC?')print(msgBuf)then it prints out:8.00612E+01,-8.96919E+01, 0, 0, 15.06031E+01,-8.96351E+01, 0, 0, 33.19851E+01,-8.95704E+01, 0, 0, 52.02217E+01,-8.94983E+01, 0, 0, 71.27909E+01,-8.94129E+01, 0, 0, 91.01729E+01,-8.93665E+01, 0, 0,10It seems the FETC? command is only getting every other result. The documentation seems to imply a single FETC? after a TRIG will get a list of all the list measurement results, but if I try this I only get one result.Has anyone tried this? Asking the question to Tonghui is the last resort, they usually don't answer.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 04:28:14 pm
content: Quote from: chilternview on June 07, 2025, 02:48:39 pmWhen we tried this List Routine we get return measurement values all over the place. Tried adding a delay but that didn't help. This is the full python routine which shows values on the LCR screen as well as PC, both show incorrect values. We get the correct values when we run our routine which doesn't use the List Function.Best

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 04:51:45 pm
content: I don't get bad values - the list values shown on the screen are fine, I do put in an average factor of 2 and use slow measurement though. Can you read all the measurement values that the list mode screen shows? I can't, seems it skips all the odd numbered ones i.e. reading 1, 3, 5, 7...

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 05:46:28 pm
content: Yes the List skips, but the values are all wrong also.Everything works fine with the "old style" step and repeat routine we wrote, even using the USBTMS interface we copied from your python routine, or the old USBCDC or RS232 interface we've used.Best

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 07:14:17 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on June 07, 2025, 05:46:28 pmYes, and even the STEP list mode works just fine too. And there is that, or the step and repeat method to use.But it would be nice to know if the SEQ list mode is a bug or user error. It's not possible to tell from the shoddy documentation.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 07:48:39 pm
content: If the Step List Seq doesn't provide a significant improvement is measurement speed or ease of data entry, then when using a separate PC to "Sweep and Plot" the LCR measurements which makes entry (Start, Stop, Increment) and results display nice & easy, then seems the Step List Seq isn't a "must have" feature with your python routine.Here's a Series LC Network we just did that was almost trivial to produce, these plots look as good as anything we've seen from the "OEM Built-in Routines", altho maybe slower to create, but really enhance the user experience IMO.Best

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 08:37:47 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on June 07, 2025, 07:48:39 pmWell you're right of course, but why provide the command if it doesn't work? The documentation says it should.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 08:44:05 pm
content: Quote from: chilternview on June 07, 2025, 08:37:47 pmIf you read back through this thread, you'll see that TH isn't inclined to necessarily make things work unless a reseller like ST puts pressure on them. Even then, TH will lie until proof is shown.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 09:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: chilternview on June 07, 2025, 08:37:47 pmAgree Tonghui shouldn't continue to have that command listed in the documentation, if it doesn't work and they no intension of supporting it, then just remove.At least most of the other commands work as expected, and the hardware performance is quite good.Hopefully some other folks will benefit from these python routines, they increase the LCR Meter perceived value significantly IMO.Best

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 10:06:01 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 06, 2025, 10:21:49 pmEven though I already know the answer, I asked TongHui today.My ST2830 is currently dismantled, and I am waiting for a new display that I ordered from Aliexpress.After a short time, the original display started to “flicker,” which is why I purchased a new one.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 10:18:30 pm
content: Thankfully, I haven't seen any flicker or other issues with mine yet. I haven't thoroughly tested either tho.Hioki tells me that the turnaround for calibration should be much better than I expected, so I will wait until that's done before I test the ST2832s.I'm curious about the viewing angle on the replacement you bought. The viewing angles on the stock LCD are weird. If you lean to the left, the blue colors disappear and turn black, but if you lean to the right, it gets more blue, less black. That's how my old TH2832 was also.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2025, 10:24:10 pm
content: I hadn't noticed that yet, I'll test it out.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2025, 03:01:30 am
content: I thought I shared this somewhere before, but I couldn't find it.In case anybody needs to convert the voltage on one of these LCRs. The red jumper wire is what determines the desired line voltage.Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2025, 12:43:42 am
content: I put a 37Ω resistor inline with the fan. There's a huge difference in volume. Now the question is what the temp is after a couple hours. TC is running.I was lazy and just bought this:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C85TBPRHThat set costs less than shipping any parts from Mouser. 🤷Thanks,Josh

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2025, 04:19:01 am
content: Well, that worked.It would probably be fine to go higher to the 47Ω, though it's already very quiet with the 37Ω resistor in line. I might test the other one later for the hell of it, but this is great as it is.Thanks,JoshPS. Ignore the file name. It's 37 not 47.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2025, 03:06:42 pm
content: myself I would use some potentiometer or resistor (but I have those without need of extra purchase)anyway adding something usually makes a huge difference in terms of sound

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2025, 03:38:57 pm
content: The point of using those premade inline resistors is that I didn't need to modify the fan cable in case the modification sucks.Anyway, 47Ω was no good. Too much voltage drop made the fan sound worse. So I tried the 27Ω and it was okay, but obviously not as big a volume difference.

author: kmoonwalker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2025, 03:42:08 pm
content: I would do the same - perhaps I did not stated that clear - have a lot of partsa incl. cables and connectors from older fans or new ones for quick prototyping

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2025, 07:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 11, 2025, 12:43:42 amWe created something similar for an AWG amp fan awhile back.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/awg-buffer-amp/msg3448332/#msg3448332Best

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2025, 08:07:00 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on June 13, 2025, 07:12:36 pmNice. I considered doing something similar, but bending the PC pins into J-hooks, but laziness won.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2025, 09:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 07, 2025, 01:10:06 pmI took a look at it today, with a 470nF capacitor and a 1mH choke.If it were €100 cheaper, I would seriously consider buying a license.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2025, 09:40:05 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 14, 2025, 09:23:09 pmTry ours, free for first 30 days, then rent for 1 brewisky/year afterwardsAlso, look at #433 by chilternview.Best

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2025, 07:52:52 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on June 14, 2025, 09:23:09 pmI've started writing something similar in C++, using Qt for the gui and the Keysight IO libs. Hopefully in a couple of weeks there will be something a bit slicker than the command line python code.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2025, 12:41:01 pm
content: One thing that we've wanted while measuring quartz crystals and resonate circuits is the ability to "Zoom In" on the frequency axis with higher resolution around the area of interest (resonance), shifting gears so-to-speak. This should reduce the overall measurement session time rather than sweeping the entire frequency range under higher resolution (which is what we do now and suffer the session time).Anyway, we've been kludging up some python code to do such (shift gears) where the center of a linear sweep is sampled at a higher frequency resolution to reveal DUT details in that area. It's kinda working now, but needs more time to work details out, so maybe we'll post back here in a few days.Best

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2025, 02:30:11 pm
content: Quote from: chilternview on June 15, 2025, 07:52:52 pmWell a day's work has seen a bare bones app coded, there is a lot to do before it's usable, the graph needs to be a larger proportion of the window, and dynamic readout of the cursor over the graph would be nice too. Just need more than 24 hours in a day...It can communicate via GPIB, USB or RS232 with a chooser that shows all available instruments. To do is saved settings, so it remembers the last used instrument.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2025, 03:29:47 pm
content: Nice work!Do you have the graph chart set so it can be resized and zoomed in?Working in Qt you can do all of that, including allowing placing markers at any point in the graphs. The FUtracer tube tracer GUI is programmed in Qt6. The attached screenshots are all examples of different plots made with it. The windows can also be made full screen.I recommend making the style choices and controls all external in a QSS file. I'd be happy to help develop that with you.Thanks,Josh

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2025, 04:46:52 pm
content: Nice chilternviewWe've attached our crude rendition which allows Linear, Decade/Log and Center Span plots. Center Span includes a High Resolution feature where the Frequency Span around the Center Frequency is Augmented with a higher resolution frequency sweep step allowing more DUT details around the Center Frequency.Still a work in progress but does improve session time for high resolution plots.Now to see if we can port this to the IM3536 and up to 8MHz!!Edit: Update to DBest

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2025, 01:31:46 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on June 16, 2025, 03:29:47 pmYes you can now zoom in/out of the chart in X only, Y only or both X and Y.Also callouts have been implemented, as your cursor hovers over a plot line it will display a bubble with the values of the parameters. If you left-click on a plot line, it adds a permanent callout (you can clear them from a right mouse button popup menu though). See the attached image for what these look like. Any suggestions appreciated.So far only frequency sweeps are supported but DC bias and AC signal level should be easy to add. I'll make it open source when it's a bit more polished.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2025, 02:26:21 pm
content: Quote from: chilternview on June 17, 2025, 01:31:46 pmThe way we did it in the FUtracer GUI, left click will choose any trace line, and the dot with the bubble callout will follow the cursor. Right-clicking will lock it in place. Right-click again to unlock it.You can download the GUI from here:https://futracer.com/downloads/FUtracer_GUI.zipThere are instructions here if you need them:https://futracer.com/curve-tracer/installation-software-hardware/Load the attached data file in the GUI, then add some tabs with different data formats (like the screenshots above) and I'm sure you'll get some ideas.Thanks,Josh

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2025, 04:14:45 pm
content: Here's a very preliminary version. Its in 7z compressed format to squeeze it under the forum 8000kb limit. I think everything is there, but you may need the VC++ redistributables (google them) if your PC hasn't already got them installed.Open the exe, go to the menu 'Device' and choose open device. It works with GPIB and USB, haven't tried with RS232 yet.Once connected (you should see your LCR meter IDN string in the status bar) you can choose to do a sweep using the Sweep tab or just display the lcr readings on the Display tab.Error checking is minimal. It's only tested on Tonghui and E4980 meters. It may crash, use at your own risk etc etc.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2025, 04:53:43 pm
content: It says you're missing the Qt6OpenGLWidgets.dll, and Qt6OpenGL.dll. Missing drivers/DLLs is common when you first export a project. Your environment probably has them loaded externally.Can you include a QSS file with the callouts for customization?Thanks,Josh

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2025, 05:15:56 pm
content: Annoyingly, I did a dumpbin/dependents to check what the exe needed, but it is the Qt6Charts.dll that requires the OpenGL libs. They are attached seperately here (the whole thing is now more than 8Mb compressed, so I can't post it in one file)The QSS stuff will get done when I get a round tuit.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2025, 05:28:50 pm
content: And it loads! I'll test it out later when I can connect one of my meters.Thanks,Josh

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2025, 11:42:37 am
content: An updated Windows version with the ability to save to CSV and save the chart image is athttps://www.peardrop.co.uk/downloadfiles/LCRmeter.zip

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2025, 04:42:30 pm
content: Some improvements to the code above - there is now a progress bar so you can see progress of the sweep, also fixed syntax of some impedance param names that were causing errors.