EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: robbak
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 12:59:11 pm
content: INB4 - Teardown!!!http://youtu.be/6RRKWORDPxMSeriously, that is a nice vehicle. Geek bling all over the place, of course; but why not!

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 01:22:58 pm
content: Thanks for the video. I have seen a few in the UK already.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 01:51:21 pm
content: So, can we expect to see the teardown on Tuesday?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 02:06:55 pm
content: Don't think they would have taken Dave's Toyota POS as a trade in on it, so likely not..........

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 09:55:52 pm
content: Some tidbits:-The seats are actually made by an australian company.-The car has front and rear distance sensors- the instrument cluster runs on a Tegra 2-the main touchscreen runs on Tegra 3. They communicate through ethernet. When music is playing the mai. Screen serves a webpage with album art that gets shown by the instrument cluster.There are two other devices on that network : the car gateway and the gps .You can reboot both cluster and touchscreen by holding down both rollers or both bottom buttons. This can be done while driving. The displays only visualise data. The drive computers controlling propulsion, braking et al are indpendent.-the odb does not allow you access to the real can busses. They have a dedicated can bus only serving odb. Data is filtered. You have no access to the internal systems.-the car a real ethernet jack in the fuse box , as well as wifi. The maintenance techs can go in that way. Don't try and get in... Somebody tried it and within 5 minutes got a call from service that the car detected a non standard device on its lan.... And please get off the network.- each critical systems run on its own special dual core processor. One is 32 bit, the other 16 bit and they are not binary compatible. This allows trapping of software bugs (majority voting systems)- certain data is being pulled live (anonymised) to study how people use their car and make improvements in software and hardware. Other data is pullable on demand in case of trouble. When you call service they ask for the last 5 digits of the vin number and your name and they log in remotely.-the drive train uses IGBT as opposed to mosfets-peak power deliverable by the inverter is 360 kilowatts at a max current of 1200 ampere. It can sustain this power all the way to top speed.-peak regeneration is 60kilowatt pumping back in the battery.- a nearly depleted pack (50km range left) at the supercharger is fed 350 odd volts at 330 ampere.The pack is preheated and conditioned and current then rolls up controlled.- they can actually sense the contact resistance in the charge connector. If that does not meet spec charging current is limited or charging aborted. To give you an idea .. 1 milliohm of contact resistance at 300 ampere would burn 100 wat tjust in the connector ... Can't have that...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 10:21:03 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 20, 2014, 09:55:52 pmBut it's my ***ing car - I'll plug whatever in want!QuoteDoes that mean it's sluggish when starting on a cold day?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 11:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 20, 2014, 02:06:55 pmMy Holden Vectra is worth about as much as it weighs in scrap metal.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 12:56:13 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 20, 2014, 10:21:03 pmWarranty void . You do not want to lose your 8 year end to end warranty with unlimited miles...Tampering is detected and cause for voiding warranty.The pack is preheated and conditioned and current then rolls up controlled.QuoteNope. The battery pack kept at optimum temperature at all times.When plugged in and really cold they use shore power to actively heat the pack. When not plugged in and cold they still keep it warm at reduced setting. Once you start driving the pack heats up by itself due to some losses.When warm they actively cool the pack.To guarantee long life the batteries must not be charged cold or too warm. So when plugging in the battery manager first either preheats or cools the battery. Charging is thne limited to 40 to 80 ampere. Once the pack is in the correct zone they ramp up current to 300+ ampere.

author: RobertoLG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 06:58:16 am
content: Man, that's a really nice looking bad boy! looks a bit like a masserati, nice video thumbs up!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 07:50:17 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 20, 2014, 09:55:52 pmCan one access the OBD with a standard car OBD-II connector and software?And what data would one get access to?Very nice impression out of this video.It will be time for me to drive one.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 08:20:11 am
content: So there is the possibility of someone hacking the Tesla network and crashing the entire system including all the cars. I think I would rather have my car off net thank you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:26:12 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on September 21, 2014, 08:20:11 amThat's why Tesla were at the recent Defcon hacker conference. They offered a prize to anyone who could hack it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:36:30 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 21, 2014, 12:56:13 amHow long would it take to self-discharge in this mode? Is there a way to tell it when you'll be back, to avoid wasting power?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:53:50 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on September 21, 2014, 08:20:11 amDrivetrain etc. completely isolated from the network. No way to crash the car via the network, only the touchscreen cluster (the dashboard would still work.)Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 21, 2014, 09:36:30 amIt discharges about 2~3 miles per day, so Tesla recommend leaving it plugged in to avoid disappointment.Once pack goes below 0 miles rated range (there's a small buffer) it'll stop charging the 12V aux battery and isolate the battery contactors. In this mode it can sit for over a year without harm to the pack, although the car would need to be jump started (in the same manner as a petrol car with a flat battery, though it only needs a little power to open the contactors and start charging the HV pack.)Only heats the pack when it goes below -30C. Tesla say 24 hour max at -30C, so I guess the battey will discharge very quickly, which could be damaging to it. All other times, pack is kept at ambient temperature. One downside, of course, is that getting into a cold car limits range. Range is reduced about 35% in cold weather until pack warms up. One trick is to turn on the cabin heating via your phone before leaving. This will also heat up the battery. About 15~20 mins is usually good enough. Another option is to charge to 10% less than is required, then about an hour before leaving, finish the other 10%, which will also serve to warm up the pack.In very cold weather, there is no regen braking (below 0C) as there is no safe way to charge a li-ion battery below freezing. Tesla haven't got any load resistor capability either; it would be nice if it could dump the power into a resistor, so it maintained the same feeling, even when regen is unavailable. Or, at least, use friction brakes.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 10:02:55 am
content: After watching the review there is only one thing I do not like on the car, the lack of a manual handbrake (a.k.a. Parking Brake). Most cars have dual circuit brakes plus the handbrake connected to the rear brakes via a cable that needs tightening now and again, but with the Tesla that ability has been removed.So, you're on a hill and thanks to a software bug your car starts rolling backwards. Your software controlled brakes don't work so how do you stop your car?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 10:55:21 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 21, 2014, 10:44:22 amThey said it would cost $49,900 after incentives in the US. About $57,400 before. (For the 40kWh pack, or about 130 miles real world range)It starts from $71,000 for the 60kWh pack, they axed the 40kWh model. Not as bad as 4x, but yeah, they missed their target by quite a bit. Less than 1% of their cars were shipped with 40kWh packs.I just hope they can maintain the promised $35k for 200 mile car. I know that'll mean it will start from about £30,000 in the UK, but that puts it well into the range of many competitors. Hopefully, they also offer 300 miles range option.Quote from: German_EE on September 21, 2014, 10:02:55 amIt does have a separate parking brake. It is electronically servoactuated. It is a completely independent system to the ordinary braking system which is hydraulic with a vacuum pump. Even with a complete 12V system failure, you could still apply hyraudlic brakes. The vacuum pump system is good for about 30 seconds of controlled full power braking after power failure. This function is identical to a petrol engine, except the vacuum pump is driven electronically rather than by the accessory belt.The regen braking would obviously not work, but there are friction brakes for a reason.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 12:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on September 21, 2014, 10:02:55 amEhm. No. The normal brake pedal is a hydraulic brake system delivered by Brembo (german engineering) not electrically controlled ( the hydraulic pump is electric) . Hillhold is not done using the motor as it burns too much power in one winding to hold the car on an incline. The hillhold function uses the gyroscope of the car to detect i cline and activates the parking brake.Here is how the systems work- hydraulic brake : closed loop system using electric pump to create pressure for the servo.- electric brake : two additional brake calipers on the rear wheels that are driven by an electric worm drive and are either open or closed.- regeneration : slow down the car by using the kinetic energy of the car to use the motor as generator and dumping that i to a load (the battery)Normal driving : take your foot off the drive pedal and regeneration kicks in. Regeneration is not all on or all off. It is proportional to your foot movement. It is like a gas engine. Take foot of pedal a ti y bit and car slows a tiny bit. Take it completely off and you get full effect. (Except here the full effect is much more pronounced than with a gas engine)Last few feet , or on an incline : press standard hydraulic brake just like with regular car.If on an incline (hill) the positional system of the car (this thing has gyroscopes) detects an incline it also activates the mechanical parking brake. So, when you release the hydraulic brake pedal the car does not roll backward or forward. The parking brake stays on for one second then disengages. If you touch the accelerator the parking brake disengages immediately.If, during driving you need the parking brake simply press and hold the 'park' button on the (forward/reverse/park comtrol handle.When done driving you click the car in 'park' to turn it off. This engages the mechanical parking brake as well.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 01:00:46 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on September 21, 2014, 07:50:17 amYes. It is a nomal odb but a dedicated bus.This car has multiple can (and lin and flexray) busses. There is no direct connection to those through odb.The odb port is a dedicated lane that allows you to read certain data that they allow you to read.You probably can read speed, acceleration, throttle position, the usual stuff that would be needed for aftermarket black boxes or other gizmos.You will not have access to the control data for , lets say the battery charger. You can probably read the state, but anything you try to send in would not go through to the internal busses. It is a filtered port. You only get to see what they let you see. In a sense you are reading data from a buffer somewhere in the main computer. That buffer is read only and filtered.

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 01:54:37 pm
content: I'm wondering how long it will be before legislation is necessary to prevent in-car systems becoming too distracting to the driver??Also, Dave, try and drive with two hands equally balanced on the handwheel!! (people who drive by steering using one hand on the top of the wheel are awful drivers......... ;-)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 04:38:48 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 21, 2014, 12:56:13 amIn the US a warranty can be voided arbitrarily. It's part of the Magnuson-Moss act.On the other hand, the few Tesla people I know are big-brother-knows-better-and-will-protect-us-from-ourselves types so I don't think this practice will bother them.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 06:15:36 pm
content: City of Vancouver installed two parking spots with charging stations in front of my building. I see one or two Teslas parked there every morning when I drive to work. Someone convinced me to take it for a test drive few months ago - I did not like it. Interior and dash board are ugly contraption all together IMHO. I don't see any use of that big ugly flat panel that they installed there.One of the guys that hangout at local hacker/maker club own Tesla and he said they hacked it all way almost completely. I noticed LCD panel was missing in his car (was just a hole instead) and if I understood correctly they are trying to strip it down to bare minimum leaving only the parts that required for car to work essentially. They have shown pretty big pile of "useless" stuff in their garage that they stripped off the car already. I hope that effort will result in some cool after-market gadgetry, hacks, mods of all sortsWell I guess it depends on how popular it will be. If I am to buy one there is no way I will let someone to connect to MY CAR.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 08:24:47 pm
content: Quote from: max_torque on September 21, 2014, 01:54:37 pmIt already exists here and was the first thing I thought of when the yank was messing with the center console, while Dave was driving. From what I have seen of advanced systems here, they go blank or display the text 'Driving...' while moving and come back to life when stationary.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 08:53:44 pm
content: IMO a touchscreen is a really lousy UI for a car.You need real knobs & buttons that you can feel without looking. Voice also seems like a good option if it can be made to work reliably.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 21, 2014, 08:53:44 pmI won't disagree, but in this case most (all?) of the really useful stuff is on the buttons on the steering wheel and the instrument cluster displays.You wouldn't touch the main screen while driving.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:39:06 pm
content: As a tech geek and a motor head, this is really cool. I love it and the whole look of it. But, and it is a big but.....It is a total waste of money, time, and technology with the world's current balance of power generation. Until we shut off all the fossil fuel generation, idiotic food crop produced fuel replacements, and pie in the sky wind generation failures, the electric car is a bigger polluter and waste of resources than the majority of fossil fuel burning vehicles. All this technological research money needs to moved to fusion research and other nuclear power generation before we think of more ways to use more electricity.Elon....are you listening? Stop wasting your talent on consumer end use products and get on to the infrastructure!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:45:21 pm
content: Higher electricity use will encourage this development. You're not going to be able to do the developmentfirstunless you can convince people to spend their money on it with no real promise of something to use it for. The actual consumer applications become the pie in the sky, and then nobody cares about it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 10:21:31 pm
content: Did you notice the web browser was missing? Australia and Hong Kong both have it shut off, for some reason. I'm not sure why.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 10:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 21, 2014, 09:39:06 pmWhen you have 7kW free solar energy grid at home and such quite huge range in the case of such powerfull 60kWh battery pack like in those top electric Tesla cars things changes and it must be nightmare for classic cars companies, while many people do quite successfull conversions of classic cars to electric ones , and only need better cheaper batteries to make it more availableHowever, the main concern is always battery pack in electric vehicle and it could be nice to see some teardown of Tesla battery pack on the bottom of the car, what kind of batteries is used there and in which configuration that allows a few kW charges from 40A 230VAC one phase mains if well understood in this video, as well as regenerative brakeing which is involved with needs to dissipate many kW of mechanical energy or convert to electricity.It means close to 9kW available @ 230VAC 40A, while 40kWh might be needed to recharge it means at least 4.4 hours at quite high 40A rate.BTW: Please remove, those myGuestmarked deleted posts, while Discus sucks and they are still therehttp://www.eevblog.com/2014/09/20/tesla-model-s-australian-test-drive/#disqus_threadSorry, I can do nothing with them now.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 10:55:45 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 21, 2014, 10:42:35 pmhttp://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 11:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 21, 2014, 12:56:01 pmBrembo is italian, not german.A german manufacturer of brake systems is Continental Teves (ATE Brakes)

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 11:30:34 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 21, 2014, 10:42:35 pmHuh? 7kW free? How is solar equipment free? If you live off grid like I do, totally off grid, it is far from free. A typical solar system where I live that is sized to meet the normal consumer is closer to at least $10,000 USD as the starting investment, plus another $5,000 USD per 4-5 years to replace the batteries. Panels last around 20 years. Think about replacing a total system every 20 years with a total cost of around $30,000USD Free? HAHA!!!!I am talking about the best place in the world with the best solar irradiance. Try the most populated places n the world and think more like $100,000 every 20 years.My system has a maximum of 3kW production at peak times. I can maybe manage an average of 25kWH per day, 11kWH being consumed by every day activities, leaving maybe 22kWH to charge the Tesla. Hmmmm, I see a problem with your free 7kW solar energy all day and night.... Are you only going to charge your car in the daytime? I hardly think so. You need batteries to charge during the night and you will need batteries at least as big as the car has to do so, more like twice as big.Until the sheeple stop being afraid of nuclear power, we are doomed to fossil fuels and other impracticable ways of producing energy and wasteful and idiotic ideas like electric cars. Until we change to nuclear power, electric cars are a total waste of time and pollute more and consume more than just burning fossil fuels in our cars directly.Now having said all that, I am investigating making a small electric car for a daily short commute of 10km each direction for my wife. It only needs to go maximum 60km/H, and can charge every two days during the day. Maybe an old VW Beetle with some kind of conversion would work. I might even build a custom car myself. The Tesla is just a rich man's toy at the expense of everyone else.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 12:02:02 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 21, 2014, 11:30:34 pmI do not like typical things, so I've made many DIY's which better fits my needs than commercial onesThermal solar systems with sun tracking helps save a lof of money and have much better effciency than PV pannelsEven using 3 phase grid mains with night cheaper energy billings (hot water stored in big tanks can be used for heating home at night too, not electricity and low efficeint PV conversion to battery than heating) is quite cheap "fuel" in electric car while this energy is better consumed in more efficient ways in modern power inverters.The main concern in EVs is batteries not electricity cost, so it is interesting how many km/miles lasts those builtin into Tesla cars?40kWh cost is less than 10$.When we take totals of energy from thermal solar power saveings and use it to charge electric car even using grid mains it looks like we drive for freeBTW: There are many more efficient ways to get electricity from the sun than PVs .For example those Infinia's units:Quote--SUN is: 2014-09-21.989 23:44:28 UTC (2456922.489 JD) lat: 5*.***N lon: -2*.***E Sun hour azimuth: 24.028 Sun (geo) azimuth: 155.972 Sun elevation: -36.370 Sun CSP power: 0.0 W Day of the year: 264

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 03:43:39 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 21, 2014, 08:53:44 pmThe whole design of this car is set up in such a way you don't need buttons or knobs.Right hand control stalk : forward, reverse neutral park.Left control stalk blinkers , second left co trol stalk cruise control.Navigation, phone integration and internet streaming are under voice controlHeadlights are fully automatic. Windshield wipers too if you leave em in auto mode.Volume up down is left roller on steering wheel. Next previous are left buttons on steering wheel.That's it. What other controls do you need ?Drive height , steering stiffness and all 25 other things you never touch while driving anyway. You set those up once and never go back to the config screen.Typical tesla drivers have the center screen set up in split mode. Top is audio source, bottom is google earth. The instrument cluster is set with the energy graph to the right. Navigation pops up left when activated.There is nothing to distract the driver. It is not more distracting than regular built in nav systems. Actuallly it is less distracting as the nav sits in the instrument cluster.Ive had mine for ten mo ths now. While driving i hardly ever touch the center screen. Only to change temperature.The rollers on the steering wheel allow full control over everything. You can set those up the way you want.In the model x the rollers are replaced with minii touchscreens. 4 buttons and touch gestures each. One left one right.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 03:51:41 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 21, 2014, 09:39:06 pmFusion is not feasible. It is decades away, even if you would throw top engineering at it.We gotta start somewhere and it has to be now, we cant sit around another 20 years waiting.There is a lot going on that you do not realise. Tesla is working on home storage units as well.Here is a long term problem : as more people will drive electric this will impose an additional load on the existing grid and powerplants. Deploying solar in combination with home storage will take enough people off grid to make room for the electric vehicles. People that deploy ev in combination with the home storage can run their home and charge their car free (after initial investment of the system).By deploying massive solar systems through solarcity tesla can deliver free power to tesla buyers.The whole thing , energy shift , ev cars production, delivery battery plant is beeing tackled by tesla. There is a master plan. Do not underestimate these guys. They are three steps ahead of where you think they are three steps aheadof the rest ...I think he is doing it right. He uses the current state of technology to make a serious effort.If you don't agree with him feel free to start your own company and try it with fusion. But don't criticise someone that is trying, especially not while sitting in a chair not even making an attempt.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 05:22:49 am
content: QuoteOther car manufactures have done studies into touch screens and concluded that tactile controls are safer, as easier to locate and give tactile feed back to their current setting/position.Take the window demisters for example, vital in damp and wet countries. You can't go messing around looking for the menu options when your front window suddenly starts to mist up on a cold wet morning, while traveling at 130kph on a crowed motorway. You need to have big easy to find and hit button, in front of you, especially if the driver does not know that model car.BTW, I am saying this as someone who loves touchscreen and gadgets.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 06:16:34 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 21, 2014, 10:21:31 pmBut Dave mentioned early in the video that he was able to go to the eevblog webpage

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 06:38:01 am
content: Japan's failed nuclear systems were built incorrectly, in the wrong place, and failed because of stupidity. This is a red herring.I state that electric cars are a waste of time based on the electrical generation fuel balance we have in the world. Mine is totally solar so it does not count. My solar system sits idle for 2/3 of the day so using the excess energy to charge an electric car is reasonable.Fusion is not the only option I mentioned. Fission is still safer, cleaner, and more efficient than any fossil fueled power plant, if designed and built correctly. More people have died and have had health problems for fossil fuel plants than all the failed nuclear power plants in the world. Coal plants in particular emit radioactive gasses and other toxic pollutants into the atmosphere. Even with stupidly designed and installed nuclear power, they have caused less health problems than the fossil fuel electric power generation insanity.With an electric car you have less efficiency from converting the generated energy to actual locomotion through conversion to electricity, transmission, charging, and inversion to the motors, than just burning the fuel directly in the engine to power the wheels directly. It is insanity with our current balance power generation.So stop electric car production until they are more efficient than just burning fuel directly, to whit when we have all of our electrical power generation from other ways than burning stuff. Wind generation is stupid IMHO. Solar in some areas where it makes sense, and the rest nuclear of some sort is the way to go.Until this happens, electric cars are as stupid as solar roadways.

author: John_L
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 07:04:14 am
content: Quote.In the video, " opening sunroof" . Fumbling through the touch screen or rolling through the steering wheel control menu to do a very simple operation. I guess sunroof is not an important aspect of the car, but for F**K sake isn't it just easier to reach up to the roof and hit a mechanical button.To me a lot of touch screen functionality has been implemented for the sake of using a big 17" touch screen rather than intuition and practicality.In Australia base price for P85 is AU$119,900 BUT for a car that should be at the leading edge of technology, there is an optional "Tech Package" that includes "Navigation, keyless entry, memory seats and mirrors" amongst other things that costs AU$4,600. These optional items are now fairly standard and common on AU$20,000 Korean cars. Parking sensors are also optional as separate package for AU$600. If I was in charge of marketing for Tesla I would resign from embarrassment.$120K is a lot of money in anyones language, but if you are going to fork out that sort of money are you really going to penny pinch to save $5k and not have above options? I'm sure that fanboys will have a better logical explanation.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 09:24:27 am
content: Tesla is production constrained (they can't produce enough to meet supply) and they have slowly been raising prices. They will charge as much as the market will bear, for now.I imagine you'll see this change after the Gigafactory is finished and they have enough battery supply to produce cars at lower prices.

author: digital
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 10:01:16 am
content: A very interesting video Dave thank's for showing,What clearance from the bottom of the battery pack to the road surface? also what is the life of the battery pack under average driving conditions and the price and last how do you get service in the Australian outback.Regards to all.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 11:09:37 am
content: Quote from: Towger on September 22, 2014, 05:22:49 amAnd why do you need such a button in the first place ? It's 2014 for crying out loud. Why can't we have a simple humidty and condensation sensor detecting that the windshield is fogging over and redirecting airflow. Actually, you don't need a sensor at all. Simply redirect airflow so that the windows don't mist over. Same with wiper controls. Same with climate controls.It's not a matter of having buttons or touchscreen, it's a matter of what can we remove altogether and automate it.Here's a brainfart : most cars have a rotary dial for fan speed, a rotary dial from blue to red another dial to select direction a boost button (max ac) and a recirculation button. On a rental car i did the calculation of combinations that gives. It was over 1700 combination to set the desired temperature in the car. What assmonkey designed that brainfart ? Yet almost every car out there uses that setup. That is sheer insanity !Homeywell invented the thermostat in the 50's. It was a simple round puck you would rotate one dial to the temperature of your liking and that was it. Every home has one. Why not cars ?In the tesla you tell the car : i want 74 degrees and that's it. No fidgeting with where you want the air , boost or whatever. It is self regulating. The car has multiple temp sensors. Software does the rest.

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 11:36:08 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 21, 2014, 08:53:44 pmThe problem is that marketing and the "that looks cool" factor (solar freaking roadways anyone?? ;-) are starting to outweigh good design in passenger cars! For example, try and use a touch screen at arms length, whilst not looking at it, whilst driving down a bumpy road, its really rather hard!My car has full voice activation, but tbh, i never use it. To use it, you need to push a button on the steering wheel, and then remember which one of about 50 commands you need to say in the right order to get it to do what you want. OR you can just push one button that does what you want it to do immediately! (luckily, the manufacturers of my car have seen fit to leave the majority of main functions with discrete buttons ;-)I suspect, that crashes due to in-attention from in car distractions are going to increase rapidly!

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 11:53:02 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 22, 2014, 11:47:56 amEr, why is it "insanity"?? I'd say it's more stupid to be able to set your car to exactly 74degF or whatever! Humans are either "hot" or "cold" in which case, all you need to know is that you need to turn the knob right a bit to be warmer, and left a bit to be colder, the fact that there are thousands of possible settings are irrelevant.It's like the obsession with modern cars of having everything adjustable or selectable or with loads of modes etc Frankly, the average driver is only just capable of simply driving their car, and is in no position to decide what damping co-efficient the suspension should be set to at any given moment for example! (which is why "Chassis dynamics engineers" were invented, to work all that hard stuff out for us ;-)

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 12:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: John_L on September 22, 2014, 07:04:14 amWhat Elon has done on Tesla is to differentiate themselves from other car manufacturers but I don't understand the idea of a Benz sourced steering wheel. Maybe they have shares in Tesla. Anyway, to do away with knobs and stuff is a way of masking quality and minimising cost. The knobs and switches need to be built and designed a certain way so the touch experience can translate the quality of the built. If you have sloppy and loose knobs, immediately effects the buyers opinion. The lack of buttons and knobs deprive you of traditional judgement of quality but the inclusive of huge display fills the void. You can say Elon is clever to avoid such cost or simply a product of a immature automobile manufacturer.A big screen is there to attract new younger generation. It's all show but it makes no difference to how the car ride or to the driving experience. Those need at least 10w of power, many more under bright sun, you can do away without. It's really cheap to have one big display panel and do away with high quality feel buttons and knobs.I need knobs, the more the better. The car doesn't know my feet is too cold and my head is being hit directly by harsh Aussie sun. My car doesn't know I am wearing a scarf and a beanie but i have soccer shorts on. The auto climate never works.The Model S is aim directly at luxury car like the Bmw5 series so the pricing should be around there. Again the Australian Tax comes into play, no company will not let Aussie consumers have their goods without a bite of our arm or legs even some wants a piece of the kidney. Like all luxury cars, options list fill pages, base models always look poor.I believe as the cheaper cars gain better build and quality the gap will be closed. Anyway luxury cars reliability are dropping nowadays, what's the point if you can't even have the most basic form of security when you pay top dollars.If I could afford that sort of money, I would go for a car with reliability and pedigree such as a Porsche. I think Lithium technology still need lots of improvement to bring the weight down and capacity up.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 12:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 22, 2014, 06:38:01 amNot for those who's lifestyle and circumstances suit them to a tea.My next car will be fully electric for that reason.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 12:51:52 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 21, 2014, 11:30:34 pmWhy not? 20 years is nothing.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 01:05:31 pm
content: Just for fun, I'd like to see a Tesla repeatedly run over an Edison robot.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 01:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 22, 2014, 11:09:37 amI think you need to drive modern European cars again. My 8 year old Renault Scenic (POS) has full climate control, just set the required temperature (20 degrees Celsius) on the up and down buttons and let it do its stuff. It is dark, the lights go on. It rains and the wipers change speed depending on how fast you are going and how wet it thinks the front windscreen is. Unfortunately this wiper speed 'feature' is a bit temperamental, well it is a French car... What is does not do is detect the windscreen misting up. But, when it does I just press one button and the climate control turns on the A/C, turns the fan on high and directs the airflow up to the screen, it even reduces reduced the fan speed if it detects the air from the engine is not hot enough. The climate control will go back to normal after a couple of minutes, if not pressed again to turn off demist.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 01:41:45 pm
content: What happens to a Tesla at cruise speed if someone shoots a high-energy RF gun at it (pick your preference for 'high-energy' and 'RF') ?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 03:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: bitwelder on September 22, 2014, 01:41:45 pmExactly the same as if someone did the same to a petrol car: nothing. They do EM testing like all manufacturers.(In the worst case it'll trip a fault and the battery contactors will open. You'll shortly lose drive power, but since the rest of the car's systems, like vacuum-driven brakes and the power steering are driven from the 12V battery rather than the engine, you'll have more control over the vehicle.)In most cases, if a non-critical fault is detected, it will temporarily go into limp mode with 40kW power maximum (enough to cruise at 80mph, just about.)Here's a look at the Model S drive inverter and motor, from none other than Tesla themselves:http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34964-Tesla-Owner-Event-during-Monterey-car-week-and-a-new-line-of-Tesla-leather-goodsNote dual redundant processors on the controller PCB. I would guess each receives an independent accelerator pedal input and they have to agree or the system will throw a contactor abort (loud "clunk", all power lost.)

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 04:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 22, 2014, 03:13:31 pmNice to see this Tesla 3 phase 4 pole AC motor stator and its inverter with some specsI looks very powerfull and it isHowever, In this class of car I would expect not this big touchscreen in the middle of the car, but rather some kind of HUDs with a few quick buttons on steering wheel like in fighter airplanes or F1 racing cars, so no need to move your eyes from windscreen and still be able to adjust some car parameters when needed as well as display navigation tips, while voice navs even with its artificial voice commands is very unpleasant to hear for a long time and sometimes simply compass is fine to find yourself and better remember street maps.This Garmin HUD looks a litle bit crappy and need to glue additional sheet of transparent plastic, by while Tesla knows exactly geometry of his car windscreen, they could simply implement some kind of custom projector with nice green light reflected from windscreen and integrated with steering wheel buttons and it could be really coolThis is what I want to have in my future electric car-some kind of HUD it does not matter if it will have not to high resolution.It looks like it is not such difficult thing to develop something like this using even basic MPU and rotating RGB diodes for exampleQuote from: EEVblog on September 22, 2014, 12:16:28 pmMaybe there will be no other cars than electric one soonRockefellers to switch investments to 'clean energy'Quote

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 08:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on September 22, 2014, 01:28:05 pmYou can oder these feature for the 5er and 7er seriesfrom BMW for over 10 years now.In german it's called "Beschlagsensor" -> "misting sensor"What I really miss are automatic infinitely adjustablesun shields integrated in the windscreen.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 11:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 21, 2014, 09:53:50 amSo, Li-on battery is used?Is it safe have this car in underground garage or special kind of insurance covers it?How this car doesn't change into fireball during charging or regenerative brakeing? Probably, there were no way to fight with such Li-on fire in the case of accidenthttp://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_of_lithium_ion_batteriesQuoteQuote from: tom66 on September 21, 2014, 09:53:50 amWas prety sure that in Tesla, this not used regen energy is converted just into heat and used to maintain interior car or battery temperature at optimum level, while this was one of the first requirements in my HPEV project-using dump loads to limit regenerative brakeing currents to battery longlife safe levels and as part of battery overvoltage protectionHowever, this battery swap trick in pitstop quite nity.http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswapQuoteIt looks like sky and the money are the only limits.How much such battery packs costs?Is it posible to buy .. only Tesla battery eg. 10kWh pack?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 11:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 22, 2014, 11:09:37 amI am sure I will do it with the knobs quicker than I say it.It is my personal opinion/feeling that voice control in vehicles has no future.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 12:12:16 am
content: [quote ]In the video, " opening sunroof" . Fumbling through the touch screen or rolling through the steering wheel control menu to do a very simple operation.On a same note, in the video, To say play me this or that song and then manually scroll through 500 results on the screen to select the version you want ?? Defeats the purpose of voice control.And the big screen lagged awfully when poor guy tried to demonstrate rotating/resizing the google map. I am surprised someone mentioned Tegra 3 processor, if this was true it did pretty bad job. I had a Sony tablet with Tegra 2, it was lightning fast working with maps.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 04:37:58 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 22, 2014, 11:07:31 pmIt's a special lithium chemistry that's less flammable than the common kind you see everywhere. Also, if anything, it would be safer to charge it in an underground garage since if a fire starts, it would quickly use up the oxygen and limit the extent of the damage.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 06:25:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 22, 2014, 12:16:28 pmA fully electric car meets the needs for my wife too. I live completely off the grid and have excess solar power once the batteries are charged. Exceptions do not disprove my general assertion.For the majority of the world, with our balance of electrical generation, I stand by me assertion. The facts bare this out.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 08:44:04 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 22, 2014, 11:07:31 pmStandard Li-Ion NMC chemistry with all the standard risks of fire if crushed or overcharged. However, it's worth noting no Tesla vehicle has ever experienced a spontaneous battery fire. Tesla cool all the cells individually, and each cell is separately fused.In the case of Tesla fires, it's due to collisions with debris and into walls that's causing some fires to occur, this is an inevitable risk of going to a skateboard platform with floor mounted batteries, but for all the benefits, I think it is worth the risk. Tesla increased the protection of the battery pack recently with a free retrofit.Such fires are slow burning and the car provided several minutes notice in both instances that a battery fault was detected and drive power is cut off. No fires reached the passenger compartment. A petrol vehicle can become inflamed after a crash very rapidly if there is a fuel leak, or if various flammable fluids like gearbox oil/engine oil come into contact with hot engine parts.Risks are different with EV - not necessarily better or worse.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 09:19:22 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 21, 2014, 10:55:21 amI had no idea they were already looking at this price point, very interesting.Given fuel prices in UK & Ireland and the way road tax is calculated it would be really interesting to bash out some numbers to see what the ROI is there. I could probably count on one hand the number of times either my wife or myself gone more than 200 miles in a single day in the car, as long as you plug it in nightly the range essentially becomes a non-issue. If you were going on a huge road trip once or twice a year then cost of hiring a "normal" vehicle isn't all that high.I think what may end up being more critical is the total life-cycles of the battery and the replacement cost of the pack plus servicing costs.At the minute the local solar fitting companies are running around offering to fit car charge ports for free, no strings at all they just turn up and install it for you. My dad got one fitted for no other reason that it's free! This is despite the fact the only electric vehicles I have ever seen or heard of around here are golf carts or childs toys!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 10:22:04 am
content: Even better - Have a look at Tesla's official supercharger network plan for 2015 - this will be free of charge 120kW fast DC charging (charge 60kWh pack from 0% to 80% in under 50 minutes, or 0% to 50% in 20 minutes)(expect some changes - but roughly said - you can travel anywhere in western Europe with minimal planning, so long as you can stop at a supercharger every 2.5 to 3 hours... it's going to be a little longer than a petrol car to "refuel", but it is free, and you rarely have to use the network, it's only for road-tripping.)Larger batteries should last longer. Average commute is about 40 miles. Most times, the charging limit will be set to 85% (engage 100% if road-tripping, but use 85% for normal use.) This keeps the battery in its sweet spot from ~50% to ~90%. Lifetime could exceed 10 years to 70% capacity with this usage.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 11:02:43 am
content: From their UK website the entry level S60 is £50,000, 8yr/125,000 mile battery and power pack warranty.*Very very rough back of envelope calcs*125,000 miles in a standard car @ 50mpg = 11,375 liters.11,375 @ £1.35/l = £15,356Assuming 100% charge efficiency (which there will not be)125,000 miles in Tesla @ stated range of 240 miles from 60kWh (4 miles per kWh) = 31,250 kWh31,250kWh @ £0.145 = £4531.25A fuel saving of £10,824 under ideal conditions.So really only 20% of the cost of the car, not enough to make the average focus or golf driver fork out the extra.Unless the initial cost gets down under £30,000 mark and/or the depreciation is exceedingly low it's not going to interest me. I realise the current target market is the mid range bmw type user but that's not me, I just want A-B as economically as possible!

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 11:25:28 am
content: Aren't those calculations assuming you're paying for all the 'leccy? Surely if you're anywhere near a super-charger, some of that will be entirely free?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 11:30:59 am
content: The knock-on effect, of course, having a £30k 200mi car will surely cause Nissan to drop the price of their Leaf below £15k. Nissan may begin offering a 150 mile battery pack on the next generation of Leaf.As far as competition goes, I think Nissan is the only company Tesla has to worry about because they -might- beat Tesla to the promised ~200mi <£30k car.Remember the Model S is more comparable to other sports sedans such as the Audi A6/A7, BMW 7 series, etc. Musk said something about Model 3 being close to BMW 3 series and Audi A4, which are about £30k~£50k. They generally don't get good MPG unless you get a diesel engine with one, but that sacrifices performance... Model 3 hopefully sub 6 seconds 0-60, and should offer AWD.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 02:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: _Sin on September 23, 2014, 11:25:28 amYeah, though I'd rarely be near one based on that map.Dave's review does make you want to check out some of the features and it has a lot going for it (looks, power, safety etc.). But what I personally would be hoping for would be something that can almost pay for itself or at least contribute significantly to it's own outright purchase cost. I think Tesla probably have it right though, some people will be falling over themselves to buy at that price point so might as well have the cream first. Hopefully they get around to something soon for the Joe Bloggs Focus/Golf type market.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 03:14:41 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on September 23, 2014, 12:12:16 amOn a same note, in the video, To say play me this or that song and then manually scroll through 500 results on the screen to select the version you want ?? Defeats the purpose of voice control.And the big screen lagged awfully when poor guy tried to demonstrate rotating/resizing the google map. I am surprised someone mentioned Tegra 3 processor, if this was true it did pretty bad job. I had a Sony tablet with Tegra 2, it was lightning fast working with maps.He pulls songs from live streaming. That is why a list pops up with everything it finds on the cell network. ( they use rdio and slacker to stream)Maps is slow for the same reason. Tesla does not cache the map data. Everything is streamed over the 3g link. Only the real gps map is stored but that is for the instrument cluster. The center console uses a live google maps coming in over the cell metwork.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 03:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: bookaboo on September 23, 2014, 02:52:14 pmOver 1,500 public charging points according to the ESB:http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jspWonder if they are compatible with the Telsa? However the ESB seems to think the Telsa is already available to buy here....http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-driving/choice-of-electric-cars.jsp

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 03:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on September 22, 2014, 11:55:09 pmTemperature setting i not under voice control. Simply tap up or down to set degrees. Just like home thermostat. The entire cabin is pretty much uniform. It just works.I've driven mine for 9 months and 13+ k miles. Have touched the temperature setting maybe twice. It works really well. On a hot day (when car has been baking in the sun all day ) i take my cell phone touch 'airco on' befor i leave my desk at work or when paying the bill at restaurant. When i arrive at car it is perfectly comfortable.The automatic systems work very well in this car.As for the scaremongers worrying about the pack exploding: each cell has its own fuse. Each cell is also packed in an intumescent. Should a cell ignite it becomes self extinguishing before it can set fire to or damage its neighbours.The only accidents have been cases where road debris penetrated the cell pack and caused massive mechanical damage to the entire pack. No spontaneous co bustion. Cells are thermally conditioned

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 03:30:38 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on September 23, 2014, 03:19:26 pmYes they are. Tesla eats anything. The car comes with adapters for J1772 , standard household plug and high power plug . In US you can charge from 110 outlet or 220 outlet. There are a number of less commonly used outlet styles (in us) . Those adapters can be bought they are 40$ a piece. Keep charger cable and adapters in car and you are set. Only the chademo is expensive.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 04:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 23, 2014, 03:23:51 pmThink it's worth noting Tesla does not use intumescent material on the production vehicles.http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-packDoesn't change the fact that the pack is inherently very safe.Spontaneousfires on properly designed EV batteries don't happen - cf. Nissan Leaf, Mits iMiEV, Tesla Roadster, and Model S.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 04:11:04 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 23, 2014, 08:44:04 amIt is interesting how Tesla driver will deal with situation where he drives his car and fall into... 0.5 meter deep water flooded valley at small speed (maybe with regen active so huge HV currents flowing to battery while he pushes brake probably before falling into water) with its 350V battery and active HV 3 phase motors?Classic car engine might simply stop working and its 12V starter battery is not dangerous but in the case of HV electric Tesla?In custom converted electric car I can imagine some kind of sensors which will detect lower free space resistance or diffrent capacitance (in general water where should be air) and cut off power supply without any driver intervention.Looking into options in Tesla touchscreen in this fatal case is not an option any moreHV is completly insulated in Tesla powertrain or it is low voltage battery inverted to HV 3 phase when engine needs power? How do they solved such scenarios when this car is half submerged in the water while its HV engines might still be active, or in some case should be else you will find yourself in the middle of this valley full of water?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 05:24:03 pm
content: Standard on automotive electronics is a really good hermetic seal, and I would guess Tesla has sealed both the battery pack, the connections to it, the inverter and the motor connections. It would have resulted in failure long ago if they were not sealed and protected internally with conformal coatings. That would just be from temperature cycling in daily use, and the fact that road dust is both corrosive and conductive, from all the lead compounds and the rubber and steel particles in it from car exhaust and tyre wear particles. Plus rain makes for a very effective power wash that pushes dirt and water in everywhere under the car.If you have ever owned a Ford or even worse Landy, with the Lucas electrics ( Prince of darkness, and the inventor of the self dimming bulb and the intermittent wiper) and all the attendant problems as they aged ( or straight from the factory if you were unlucky) with connector problems.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 05:31:41 pm
content: Ahh, Lucas. Divine name - devilish gadgets.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 05:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 21, 2014, 09:39:06 pmHe's deliberately expressed little interest in that. In fact, all the patents pertaining to infrastructure are free* to use, so others are welcome to build it -- if they should ever want to, that is.Tim

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 06:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on September 23, 2014, 05:31:41 pmNo, you need to use Jaguar to really appreciate it. Lovely car, you need those 2 55l fuel tanks, and the electrics were the scrapings from the bottom of the bins of the stuff Ford rejected as too poor, not even good enough for a Landy.Of course if you want horror you buy French............. Who else would place a circuit breaker in a place where there is a window to see if it has tripped, but to reset it you need to have an extra elbow about half way along the lower arm, and fingers of titanium with the ability to press with 300N of force to apply pressure to the tiny bit that you can reach, with guidance provided by somebody outside with a torch guiding your hand. An arm about 30mm diameter helps as well.A way to make a whole crew unhappy " I need to change those 2 pitot lines, can you remove the nose". 3 days to remove, involving a crane and around 500 plugs and sockets being undone, and removal of panels and drilling out of the rivets holding them. Then I come there at the last minute, clip 2 wire lockings and undo 2 tubes. Then clip the next 2 wire lockings, remove the pipes and replace them, then redo the wire lockings on both ends. then " Thanks guys, my side is done, you can put it back on now" and vanish for 2 weeks while they do it and sign the paperwork for it. The only way we could get revenge for being called "Petrol pump attendants - put fuel in, polish the windows and clean the instruments". That and quietly stealing their packs of cigarettes and dunking them in LOX, then placing them back unnoticed. Light one within 10 minutes and it burns down in about 4 seconds.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 07:02:19 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 23, 2014, 04:05:24 pmUnless you will have to play with this 85kWh 400VDC Tesla battery submerged in water in the case of accidentIt is interesting how is it protected from submerging in water, while they had to also make this thing easy to exchange if they were able replace it within 90s with another unit...Trying to figure out if those ICsimages slightly"improoved"using image processing tools to get those numbers more visible from link above hereTesla BMS frontare some common ICs used in BMSes or custom Tesla's?BTW: Those BMS module images are in such high resolution & quality that probably we'll have China electric carCheslasoon

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 07:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 23, 2014, 03:30:38 pmYou will have to let this fellow have a go at charging yours :-)

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 07:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 23, 2014, 05:24:03 pmAnd crucially, the HV DC system isolation to the chassis CONTINUOUSLY monitored. Should that impedance fall below acceptable levels, due to water contamination, damaged wiring/ insulation or similar, the system will immediately disconnect the mid battery string HV disconnect circuit breaker, and "safe" the system automatically.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 07:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 23, 2014, 04:11:04 pmBattery pack is IP67/68 sealed (it's mounted on the bottom of the car, and the car has to be able to "wade" through water.) It contains a pair of internal contactors. Current on bat+ and bat- constantly monitored. If there's a disagreement of more than a few hundred mA, a fault will be triggered and both pack contactors will open.HV system is completely floating wrt to the chassis and 12V system. 5kV isolation everywhere.Even if the HV system did continue operating... it probably wouldn't lead to any harm beyond about 10cm. The potential difference across any point in the water will be limited.Quote from: eneuro on September 23, 2014, 07:02:19 pmThey are common parts:TI BMS controller:http://www.ti.com/product/bq76pl536ASilicon Labs MCU:http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/12)_Components_Specs&Datasheets/Silabs/C8051F520A-F530A.pdfSilicon Labs digital isolator:http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/368/Si864x-51666.pdfCan almost guarantee every major automaker (except possibly Toyota and Honda with their oddly anti-EV stance) will have opened a Tesla pack and taken very careful notes.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 08:49:26 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 20, 2014, 09:55:52 pmand all this combined shit pulls 100W when the car is turned OFF, because Nvidia/Tesla geniuses couldnt figure out how to boot all those Tegras quickly enough - so they leave them running all the time.Quote from: eneuro on September 21, 2014, 10:42:35 pmyes, im sure all Tesla owners will leave their Teslas at home to charge during peak hours .. they will simply take a bus to workQuote from: EEVblog on September 22, 2014, 12:16:28 pmYou already have one, UK madeQuote from: free_electron on September 23, 2014, 03:14:41 pmand how all of this makes experience any less shitty? users dont care, users see laggy map

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 09:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 23, 2014, 07:29:52 pmTrying findout when we'll have this disagreement while we have quite good isolation-when HV isolation is broken in powertrain and current flows back to the battery by damaged case, while we expect him on battery terminal where those current sensors sits?Thx for this Tesla battery quick teardown.From this linkhttp://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-driving/choice-of-electric-cars.jspprovided above just tried to estimate electric energy consumption per km in the case of Tesla Roadster with raw 395km range and 53kWh battery pack, so it gives about 0.134kWh/kmand Peugeot iOn with average 130km range and 16kWh battery-in this case we have slightly smaller energy usage: 0.123kWh/km.Unfortunatelly, there is no basic moveing object (those cars) properties like its mass and drag coefficient Cx, so it is not possible to compare those numbers and make estimations of average electric energy usages (so range itself) using real GPS data with altitude values assuming for example average speed 70km/h on known roads we travel everyday using classic cars (so GPS & more accurate altitude data from maps is available).This electric power consumption will differ and very dependent on average speed and other driving habbits, so those range numbers probably tells nothing how such electric car will perform in given terrain conditions, while there are so many factors that can limit this total theoretical range

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 09:55:14 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 23, 2014, 09:10:37 pmOne example is in the case of an object impaling the battery pack, but not doing enough damage to trigger a thermal event. This could cause excessive leakage current, which will trigger the fault detect immediately. ("Car Needs Service - Unable to Drive" appears on dash; contactors are isolated.) 8yr battery warranty covers a fault like this.Another case is an isolation failure on one of the various high voltage boards.The point is, the failures of this kind are rare, but if they do happen, the pack is protected and such a fault will not harm the user.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 06:57:36 am
content: Fromwww.autotrade.ieQuoteWell that's not going to work. How hard would it be to set up one service centre in Belfast or Dublin?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 07:17:01 am
content: Just what needs servicing? Stuff that breaks can be handled by having a car carrier to transport the vehicle, and a loaner unit if needed dropped off. Same with accident damage that is more than a replacement bumper.Small issues can be handled by simply having a "Guy In A Van" with all the tools, small wear parts and such, on call somewhere convenient and central, who will travel to wherever you are and do the work on site. If there are less than 100 vehicles in the country that is very easy and will work well with minimal overhead and fuss.Probably the most used item will be a 20kVA diesel genset on a trailer, used for those who are absent minded and who forget to charge and drive until the vehicle says "enough". It is likely they will only do that once in all the ownership of the vehicle.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 07:37:24 am
content: Perhaps, I was assuming they would need the once over every 10-15k like most cars? Yes there are fewer moving parts but even a well built car can have silly little issues, stuff like wipers not working or a rattle in the dash. Do they really want to be shipping back and forth do deal with stuff like that? Can a normal local mechanic service the brakes? Though if they were offering pick up / drop off under warranty then the problem is theirs. A man in a van may well suffice. I don't know how they plan to organise their dealers, if it's the normal franchise model then I'm sure someone will set something up if there is a demand.Any one know how often Tesla owners need to be visiting the service centre for both routine and unplanned service?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 07:54:58 am
content: Brakes are likely to last a really long time, as most of the work is done by regeneration. Wipers and rattles can most easily be done by a mobile service unit, and this is more likely to be efficient and lower cost overall.Dealership has massive overheads and you are only able to cover those by charging for every thing done on the vehicle, along with that huge "sundries" line item on all invoices. Most dealerships barely break even on new car sales, and only cover the costs on servicing under warranty by either changing stuff not covered at a price, or by claiming from the supplier.Your average service plan cost ( built into the price or not) is more than the cost of servicing, unless you have an unlimited mileage one and do the mileage way above average within the time period it covers. Most vehicles here have a 2-5 year service plan that covers typically up to 60 to 100 thousand kilometres. In that time you will have at most 6 minor services and possibly one major service, and possibly 2 brake changes at most. That is about half the price of the contract, even at dealership prices ( not those they publish, the inside actual cost of service) and are a profit centre plus a lock in to non franchise dealerships for that period. In most cases you will run out before you are half way through.

author: RupertGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 01:04:58 pm
content: I do wonder how long these things will run if Tesla goes bankrupt. Are they sensibly serviceable without the Mothership running all those networked data and diagnostic services? They're not exactly open systems. Say goodbye to all those free supercharger service stations, too - I don't see any sort of multivendor standards evolving any time soon.It's an aspect of the IoT world that doesn't get enough attention, I think.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 01:26:23 pm
content: Quote from: bookaboo on September 24, 2014, 06:57:36 amCosts are the main factor, but now would be a good time to set up a dealership, or setup with an existing dealer. Last time I looked there were plenty of empty car dealership buildings...My uncle (RIP) bought a high tech and high performance luxury car and the only dealership for Ireland was in Belfast. I believe the car made good number of trips up and down for servicing and to be fixed. But it was hard enough to get them to come down and collect/fix the car. At one stage the power steering failed and the car was almost undriveable, and they expected him to get it from Dublin to Belfast to be fixed under warranty. This was for a car costing well over twice the price of the top end Teslia.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 01:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 23, 2014, 04:05:24 pmThe grey foam sheets are intumescent material. When the first fire happened due to an accident tesla released a technical statement that the pack is self exti guishing in case of internal fire.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 01:44:02 pm
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 23, 2014, 04:11:04 pmDude, get off the internet.The HV systems are sealed. You can perfectly drive the thing through water. If you get water high enough in the cabin to flood the center co sole you got other problems ...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 01:51:40 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on September 23, 2014, 07:14:04 pmThat red connector adapter is available for tesla in europe

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 01:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on September 24, 2014, 01:26:23 pmYeah, it doesn't even have to be a dedicated dealer. Most of the dealers have at least 2 or 3 franchises so I'm sure someone will take it on. By the time the price point coincides with my budget I'm sure the problem will have been solved.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 02:08:00 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on September 24, 2014, 01:26:23 pmThe words "High Performance" and "Italian engineering" are not compatible with reliability. Buy a brand like Toyota, VAG, BMW or MB ( even though they have odd designs in them and some weird quirks) and it is likely that you will never see the dealership, aside from when it tells you service is required, or a light bulb fails. Buying a high performance car is like buying a racehorse, both are expensive to keep, eat money and you only get to enjoy them every so often. Otherwise you have a cart horse, which just plods along with regular use and no abuse.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 03:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 24, 2014, 02:08:00 pmBritish Engineering, now owned by Volkswagen.They first car I sat into which phoned home and that was almost 10 years ago. Engine bay sealed with carbon fibre cover... No touching...

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 08:00:37 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 24, 2014, 01:44:02 pmDriving in deep water is far from perfection for any car unless it is submarine or shipEverything works in marketing demonstrations, and exchanging Tesla battery pack in less than 90 seconds... in such perfect show conditions might look impressive for someone, who... doesn't made more than 200000km and 20% in extreme winter, where snow, ice make simple not possible even clean bottom of the car without heating it up.So, at winter changing battery pack in Tesla is very surrealistic and could take hours, while classic car will be ready in minutes and easy make 1000km, while many modern HDI turbo diesels with Common Railly doesn't go above 5L/100km even at winterInternet is very usefull, while one can easy see that do not need Tesla car connected to internet via crappy mobile network which coverage will fail in many places around the world. It looks like it is some kind of spy/inteligence agency monitoring his car by private network and trying to keep it in good shape like spaceship missionsI have 10x smaller energy usage in my HPEV and do not have to look for any superhiper charger stations, while any McDonald 230VAC with 25Amax will let me recharge my EVBTW: Who will notice Tesla car while it looks like... another car?But everybody will notice this oneNo question about it this one2011 Peugeot EX1 electric conceptQuoteLook how electric car might look insideHowever, they should mark this videoQuotedue to really scary seconds which you can feel on huge display at1:48video time in this quite strong electric ride

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2014, 08:03:04 pm
content: The point of Tesla is to create EVs that don't make too much attention to themselves. Model S and Roadster both look nice, but the design is not extraordinary. I like that. It took ages for car manufacturers to understand this. They used to produce all these concept cars that do look good, but I really would not want to be seen dead in. (especially an electric Peugeot...)

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2014, 10:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 25, 2014, 08:03:04 pmThey haven't got too much time to make extraordinary Tesla, so probably that is why they put this touchscreen to help them setup many things at lower cost, but it is bad idea to put web browsers into cars, while those internet buttons are in many modern web interfaces very bad designed with buttons not clear visible inside other contest-too much information to proces by humans when looking into such big screen-old school WWW buttons could be much better.BTW: Peugeot iOn doesn't look great, but at typical lower speeds than classic cars (with 135km/h max) probably better suited for more customers than Tesla, while it does not require such powerfull power stations to recharge them (only 16kWh battery).http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/peugeot/ionhttp://www.peugeot.co.uk/media/peugeot-ion-prices-and-specifications-brochure.pdfhttp://www.peugeot.co.uk/media/peugeot-ion-range-brochure.pdfQuotePeugeot EX1 is amazing concept and it shows good feel and beauty of Peugeot designs in general.Someone will than click on Peugeot iOn and buy this one or convert good looking Peugeot 607 to electric car

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 08:35:17 am
content: Customer of ours is suitably impressed enough to reserve two car park spaces at his firm. I can only assume he has one on pre-order.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 07:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: bookaboo on September 26, 2014, 08:35:17 amIt will be better... if you take this thing and send to Dave for next videoblog teardownIt could be interesting to see what is inside this thing while it should provide close to 10kW charge power-less or more?How charging process is protected from someone else trying to unplug charge wires from this wall socket?All wires connection between car & this charge box is securred by keys or only security video monitoring is used and assuming nobody will try to tweak charge process somehow, so anyone can break Tesla charging without additional authorization?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 08:31:02 pm
content: It's literally a set of contactors which only energise the cable when safe to do and a control circuit for them. EVSE (electric vehicle supply equipment.)There are five pins on the J1772 socket (Tesla use a custom socket, but signalling is compatible, and the high power charger uses the same signals.) PILOT, PROXIMITY, GND, and AC L1/L2. (Or L/N.)The proximity signal tells the EV to stop pulling current when the connector is unplugged. (The proximity, pilot and GND are longer than the power carrying connectors.) This prevents arcing in the connector if unplugged while charging.The pilot tells the EV what current it can draw (breaker rating 80%, so 24A on 30A circuit, responsibility of the electrician/installer to set EVSE correctly) The duty cycle varies from about 10% to about 90% at 1kHz, this indicates somewhere between 5A and 80A, exact specs vary.When EV stops loading the pilot signal, EVSE disconnects power, making connector safe for any curious fingers. The EVSE is also responsible for testing the incoming mains to make sure that it is acceptable, and that the ground connection is intact. (GFCI not built in though.)Charger (AC to DC) is onboard the car.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 08:50:54 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 26, 2014, 08:31:02 pmSurprised it doesn't have 3 pins to allow for 3-phase.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 09:33:12 pm
content: As fun as that would be, it's not very practical. 3-phase power in US residences is essentially never seen and you'd need even more charge circuitry in every car. For banks of charge ports in parking lots you'd just distribute the single-phase charge ports evenly across the phases.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 10:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 26, 2014, 08:50:54 pmFor European models it does. It uses Mennekes 3-phase connector... modified slightly for fast DC charge capability at 135kW supercharger & 50kW chademo.Personally I think Tesla missed the ball in not making the US versions implicitly three phase compatible - even if they never used it, they have to have two connectors, one for North America, and one for the rest of the world?!Here's what's inside Tesla's 80A EVSE...

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 10:55:31 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 26, 2014, 10:35:58 pmI hope, Tesla supports this most reliable and available method of recharging electric car anywhere, of course using diesel generators and plant oils should be prefered, so it can be still ecological and green energyWait or move to4:00 minutewhere you can see how to extend range on some electric cars, but do not do it yourself while it might be prohibited usage of such electric generators in most countries, I guessBTW: Why classic cars can not be started just like those electric generators and those high current starter 12V batteries are needed

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 11:46:07 am
content: Can't do that on Model S or Roadster, it won't charge without an intact ground.Someone worked it out, something like driving an 8 MPG car.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2014, 11:56:45 am
content: Buy a Lada Niva, they come as standard with the crank handle. Interesting vehicle, you can just about stand in the engine bay, even with the standard accessories that the car comes with: engine, spare wheel, high lift jack, wheel spanner, crank handle and a toolbox. Funny thing is that you can start it with the battery barely able to light the headlamp, though using that crank handle can break your arm.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 05:42:09 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 24, 2014, 07:17:01 amI now have this mental image of a Tesla towing a caravan that's connected to the generator in the caravan.So... Will it accept a charge while in motion?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 06:22:13 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on September 29, 2014, 05:42:09 amI don't know but maybe 4chan convinces Tesla owners that it can be charged in seconds if you put it in the microwaveKidding aside I would think they kept the frame as light as possible so I don't think it will be able to tow things, but maybe it can? Haven't look into it.Like the Isuzu VehiCROSS I was thinking in getting but I got a Rodeo Sport because that could tow things

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 12:10:15 pm
content: I have seen a Model S towing a small trailer going down the M1 a week ago.It doesn't have a hitch, but you can attach one.I imagine range is affected.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 06:39:36 pm
content: Depends on what you tow as to how it affects range. I used to get better fuel economy towing a small boat than without it, just from the improved airflow around the combination. Of course once on the water.........Boat, a hole in the water you toss money into. But a lot of fun. Still have the scar from the illegal fishing line I collected one day, complete with the rod, hook and sinker. Was always fun to relax out at the back of the surf and just inside the shark nets, looking down at the big gents in grey suits. Even more fun in the one sardine run, picking up sardines from a ball of them. Was slow coming back though, was towing Ricky.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 08:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 29, 2014, 12:10:15 pmMaybe it was an extra battery pack

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2014, 11:31:22 pm
content: I found it a bit odd that they didn't install a 4G/LTE modem in the thing. The reason the Tesla guy gave in the video was that 4G doesn't yet have the coverage. But if you move outside a 4G coverage area, it will negotiate down to HSDPA, 3G and I presume even down to EDGE and GPRS in fringe areas?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 01:59:35 am
content: we released the 'D' last week.0..100 km/h in 3.2 seconds. Supercar territory. Twin motors , all wheel drive with torque vectoring. and .. wait for it.... AutoPilot.Yes, Knight Rider afficionados : KItt2000 is now real . The car uses a sensornetwork of 12 long range ultrasounds in combination with long range radar , a camera and image processing , the GPS network and the maps to drive itself. It can change lanes, follow traffic , adapt to speed signs ( it reads speed signs ) , adapt to the flow of traffic slowing down and picking up in congested area's, avoid people , animals or other obstacles crossing. it will park itself in your garage and come back out fully autonomous.the video is on youtube.oh, and we got some really cool robots too... prepare to drool when Elon releases 'the titan'and subsequently lowers it back down

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 03:03:35 am
content: Way cool.Are you still using the Vehicle Platform system from Lotus for the frames?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 03:04:41 am
content: Now just add some way to turn it into a plug in hybrid (a generator trailer, perhaps?) and it could very well become the ultimate car for those who drive long distance a lot.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 09:38:06 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 17, 2014, 03:04:41 amPlease, no.The Model S is a good car already, why compromise it with an extra engine? Noisy, dirty, inefficient engine and extra drag. Why? If you want that, buy a petrol-hybrid or diesel-hybrid. If you're on the fence, a 500 mile pack should be available within 5 years.Battery swapping in December, apparently, so full charge in 90 seconds.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 10:29:42 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2014, 01:59:35 amI asked that about the previous car, and it didn't even have a front camera for "whatever" in the future, which I found rather non-forward thinking.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 11:24:04 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 29, 2014, 08:47:36 pmMaybe.I always wondered about doing that. Soooo many people say they woould never buy an electric car because they need to go on long road trips. I think they're a bunch of whiners (car rental anybody) but the obvious answer is a rentable trailer with extra batteries.Maybe you could even swap trailers in "filling" stations on really long trips - it would be just as fast as filling up with gas. The car's GPS could tell you where they were and when to swap.Why isn't it a standard feature for electric cars?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 11:25:42 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2014, 01:59:35 amKnowing my luck it will go in the garage, sulk, and refuse to come out.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 04:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 17, 2014, 11:24:04 amquick google: 15% is the industry standard for "number of 4x4s that actually go off-road". Same for long trips. Our brains tell us we need to prepare for the worst case, this is why soccer moms drive in suburbans or navigators.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 05:56:00 pm
content: I am maybe 0.1% of population who are "crazy" in a sense that I want things like:1. 100% access to full source code of everything that runs on my car with instructions on how to build and install it.2. Complete, detailed maintenance and repair guide.3. Access to 3-rd party components such that I can buy battery cells from at least 4 independent sources for example.I do not believe that car makers actually care about this - all they want is to lock you into using their shitty glorified forklifts with proprietary parts. You buy their car and they own part of you forever in some sense. So unless someone in government come to senses and will make them to provide this sort of things they will never do. This places all currently available electric cars into same category as Apple/Sony etc. hardware - I would LOVE to build those things but will never buy and use one. For me personally - all sorts of hacks, black/grey market components work just fine.I often to say "I want to be a DEALER on this market not USER!"

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 06:22:42 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 17, 2014, 01:59:35 amBut... it can't flyProbably it is cheaper and easier to buy and operate small airplane than those Te$la's .QuoteCars (even electric) has no future...