Clients asking for the impossible - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 07:38:17 pm
content: I don't mean to make this sound like a rant but just felt like sharing a little story and maybe a few other people can pile on with their own little tales of clients demanding stupid crap that can't or shouldn't be done.I just had a guy come in with a guitar amplifier fitted with 4 6L6 power tubes. He wanted them replaced with EL34's because he likes the sound of those tubes better. So, I told him that while it can be done, it really shouldn't be done. I explained to him that a tube change like this isn't as easy as plugging them in and resetting the bias voltage. You've got a bad transformer mismatch on the output primary, and the whole bias circuit needs to be reworked. I also have to cut and replace traces with bodge wires and flying components, and that the power transformer may not have the 2+ amps of margin designed in to handle the filament current. The total bill will be at least $200 + the cost of parts.Now he's all butt hurt because I refused to do the work and hit him with a minimum bench fee, howling that he thought I was a good tech. Yeah, I am a good tech, and that's why I don't want to do it. I'm not going to risk my reputation and screw up a $2000 amplifier and put it's reliability at risk. So yea, I lost the job and he's taking it down the road to another tech that's going to do it and for a lot less. Up shot is that he'll probably be back in 6 months with a blown power transformer and Lord knows what else that's really going to cost him some money to get fixed.Some days you just can't win!

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 08:01:24 pm
content: Do remember that it's not the customer's job to be the expert. If professional electronics were easy, any fool could do it, and you and I would both be out of a job.I've certainly done jobs that, with hindsight, I should have turned down. Thankfully there haven't been too many of them.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 08:10:43 pm
content: That could be an interesting thread....jobs I should have turned down but didn't, and jobs I didn't turn down but should have.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 09:41:48 pm
content: It sounds like you're better off without that particular client. Charging the minimum bench fee was the right thing to do as well.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 10:17:12 pm
content: The customer might just want the particular sound he is after but not realize what is involved technically. My guess is that if you empathize with the customer ("Yes, it would be great to use the EL34 tubes so you can pursue the sound you prefer") and also give him confidence you can do the work in the right way he might come around to realizing you are giving him good advice.Separate from the sound characteristics that he wants and the reliability you want to deliver is whether his budget will allow him to do it right. I'd say to such a customer "I can get make the amp work with the EL34s but I think you want the work done so the amp is still reliable. To do it right will cost $x total for parts and labor. If that is beyond your budget I'd understand fully. If it fits your budget I'd be happy to do the work."Your price sounded reasonable so I think the customer probably just needed to get focused on the benefit more than the fee. It's possible that he thought you were selling him something that he didn't need (he might have thought he could just plug in the tubes and do some biasing). So he might have needed more education along with the empathy. Some customers are harder to educate than others and it might not have been worth your time to educate him and sell him. That's part of business, knowing how much time to spend on qualifying before passing.Net, net: rather than describing the cost as a "bench fee" which is hard for the customer to value, I'd put the emphasis on the what the customer gets (reliability and peace of mind along with the EL34 sound characteristics). It might just be words or salesmanship but what counts is not just what you say, it's what the customer hears. If the customer pays for you to do the work the right way and gets the right solution you both win, so it's worth helping the customer understand the benefit (reliability and sound quality) which is the thing to emphasize more than the (bench) fee.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 11:03:21 pm
content: Quote+1Someone I know once said that it took him 10years to work out the technical aspects of what he did for a living, and another 20 to work out the customer service side. At the time I didn't fully understand what he meant but now I'm a little older I think he wasn't far from the truth. I'm slowly learning how to handle people better despite the fact that I don't think that comes naturally to me (I suspect I have Asperger's but don't have a formal diagnosis).How you say something matters at least as much as what you say. Chalk this one up to experience but I agree with Electro Fan. If you tell someone what they want to do is impossible, or ill-advised you set up a confrontation which is not a good basis for a meeting of minds.As an example of this my neighbours wife has Alzheimer's and went through a patch of wandering away from home - as people with this condition are wont to do. One day I found one of my other neighbours with her in the street and it was pretty obvious that things were tense. It turned out that she realised she was lost but did not recognise the house she shared with her husband as "home" - probably she was working on some childhood memory of what home looked like.So my other neighbour is saying the sort of thing you'd expect - "of course this is where you live" but the response was very firmly "that's not my home". This just produced the response "you definitely live here" with more and more emphasis but all that was happening was that tempers were getting frayed on both sides.So I stepped in and simply asked the confused old lady what she wanted to do - "go home" was the answer. Instead of repeating "this is where you live" I answered: "OK, we can sort that for you, I'll make a few calls but in the meantime it's cold out here why don't we go inside" and lead her towards her house. Once inside she recognised her husband (just) and settled down.The point (sorry for the shaggy dog story) is that avoiding confrontation can improve communication no end. It's possible you could have got the customer happy with your fee by couching it in terms of wanting to do a good job.Even if you really didn't want to take the work on you can still phrase things so as to leave the customer thinking how helpful you were - which is always good the next time they want work done.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 11:22:33 pm
content: The art of electronics design contracting is knowing what jobs to turn down

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 11:25:06 pm
content: QuoteThe art of keeping clients happy ishowyou turn them down.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 11:55:40 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on April 05, 2014, 11:25:06 pmThere will always be the odd few that will never be happy though.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 12:31:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 05, 2014, 11:22:33 pmOr in my case (more often than not) being stupid enough to say yes. It was how I made a living doing the crap no one else wanted. In reality it turned out to be a good strategy, I earn money and get educated a win win situation.When it comes to customers all understand the money issue. Be up front (especially as a contractor) and explain the cost factor (if the job is doable) and if they are will to pay then do it. If it's not doable say up front "I'll have to look into it, what are your reasons" and try to come up with a solution. Your job is to help the customer, in some cases that involves passing the job on to another. If you can do this and maintain the relationship you will have a customer for life.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 12:48:19 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 06, 2014, 12:31:19 amOne of the most valuable lessons to learn is not to tell a customer yes or no. Just tell them how much it'll cost and why. The trick is to make sure that the price tag is large enough that you won't mind doing it if they accept.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 01:30:20 am
content: Quote from: ajb on April 06, 2014, 12:48:19 amThat is so true. Don't undervalue yourself.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 01:37:45 am
content: In the music industry you really get to see the full spectrum of personalities daily. It can be a challenge at times and you've got to handle everybody differently and on a case by case basis. I'm not getting rich but it's a hell of a ride that I couldn't even imagine trading in for some corporate cubicle.You'll go from the pro studios that hand you a blank check and tell you to do what you have to do. These guys often want things like clones of classic studio equipment, custom mic preamps, compressor/limiters etc. They know I might have to source an oddball part or have some part custom built to spec. They know it can be time and labor intensive as long as they know they'll get it and just budget it into the operating costs. These guys are nice to deal with because they tend to be tech-heads and you can have the conversations you need to without trying to figure out how to phrase things in a way the layman can understand.Now you've got the vintage "collector" who wants to relive the days of his misspent youth and the gear flippers. Oddly, in my experience they tend to grind harder on you than anybody else. They roll through ebay and pawn shops looking for busted up junk on the cheap that might have a high resale value when it's working well and in good condition. These guys are looking to maximize their resale margin so the cost of every nut bolt and screw is a fight. And of course it's all got to be "numbers matching". I see these guys coming I know I'm going to have a bad day. LOLThen there are the working musicians who are hoping to be the next justin bieber or whatever. Those guys you get almost no arguments from in terms of cost, and they're the ones least able to pay. "My band just booked 5 jobs for next week and two on Saturday. We just need our shit to work! How soon can you get it done and what's it going to cost?" Lot of times you'll see them driving around in a re-purposed beer truck with bald tires and they don't even think twice about a 300 dollar bill. They're like a tech's wet dream! A lot of times I won't even bill them straight because I know they're hurting.Then you get the average Joe that rolls in with guitars, amps, old stereo equipment, receivers, power amps, computer monitors, etc. They just want their stuff turned around in a timely manner as long as it's not more expensive than buying a replacement. Those are just drop offs and pick ups 1-2 weeks later. Simple in and out jobs all day long. Pure Gravy! This is also where the cheap one hung lo crap is causing problems for service techs.The last group are the wild cards. These are the "tone chasers" with G.A.S. You never know what the hell they're going to come up with. Many times they don't even know themselves. All they know is that they're looking for some kind of signature tone or something they're hearing in their heads. They'll roll in with "I was reading on the internet...." These are the times when you have to tactfully figure out a way to tell them what they read was pure marketing hype and bullshit (insert "audio grade capacitors" here), or that the equipment you've got won't get you where you want to go. These can be really tricky conversations.

author: Kohanbash
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 01:56:14 am
content: This reminds me of the youtube video that has been going around recently

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 12:23:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 05, 2014, 11:22:33 pmAgreed! I took on a job once which someone else had rejected. It was a pure technical nightmare but we got there in the end. I learnt a lesson though.Same when relatives who you have not seen in ages calls you up and expect you to come around and fix their TV. With some southern European cultures, the ultimate insult to them is to have call a technician to fix a TV when a relative can do it for free. They would rather the TV was not fixed than to have to pay.

author: nihilism
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 12:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: Kohanbash on April 06, 2014, 01:56:14 amStory of my life.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 12:55:17 pm
content: QuoteOn the surface that does sound a bit harsh, did you have to take it apart to quote?I wouldn't have taken that job either.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 02:45:54 pm
content: Sometimes you should have the customer sign a "I take full responsibility" paper before doing any work. If you know that something is a bad idea but your customer insists on that, then he should also take the responsibility for it. The customer will get what he asked for and you make your customer happy. Or the customer might even start rethinking his idea. If anything goes wrong show the paper. It's sad, I know. But some people will learn it just the hard way.

author: Jarrod Roberson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 03:02:50 pm
content: You did the correct thing, be sure to keep his name handy so you can charge the customary 4X fix someone elses work surcharge.This is a common occurrence in every technical service related field. Hardware, software. I even had it worse when I was doing graphic design back in the early 90's.I would quote a price, customer would claim their sister in law had Corel Draw and would do it for 1/4 the price, I would say, good luck with that. When they came back with some hideous thing that would not raster out, then they really got self righteous when I would quote them even more to "fix" ( basically redo in Freehand/Illustrator/PageMaker ) their abomination than I quoted to do it from scratch in the first place.Sad thing is, none of them ever learned, they would get some lowball to do the work, it wouldn't raster to the image setter, and they bitch about having to pay to "fix" it. No amount of explanation would get through their thick skulls that you couldn't "fix" something that wasn't going to work to begin with. I was the one with the 6 figure image setter equipment and the knowledge, training and experience to use it, but they always knew better. I made a bunch of money on the side until that industry went upside down. At least shoddy work on a printed piece won't burn down a building or kill someone.Just a commentary on the entire amp/tube/analog thing:I haven't had an actual guitar/bass amp since I discovered the very first gen Line6 POD ( circa 2000). The "software" amps are going to completely decimate the "traditional" amp market eventually, maybe not this year, but in a generation the entire "tube voodoo" crowd will age out and the modeling amps will have taken over. Almost every want-to-be musician I know gigs with some kind of modeling amp now because they are cost efficient and easy to lug around and nobody can tell honestly claim a difference in the sound in a shitty club environment.Positive Grid BIAS is incredible, POD Farm, TH2, GuitarRig, Amplitube, MarkStudio, etc. They are used by professional studio musicians more than anyone realizes or would want to realize, if they are "purists". The latest generation of guitar "gods" getting popular on youtube right now almost all endorse some software amp(s) and sell their own custom models and configurations. Culture is changing for sure.Just like how LCD TVs killed the CRT TV Repairman in the US since it costs 4/5 the price of a new TV to fix an old one, they rarely get fixed. Same will go with this industry, non-modeling amps will be a niche eventually and the number of "amp techs" will be reduced greatly.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:00:39 am
content: jarrod, it's already happening, at least in the sense that the market is really starting to fracture in a number of different directions. The up shot is that after a while the working musicians start to figure out the advantages of purely analog equipment. I can't count how many times I've heard stories about how people go online to update their drivers, patches or models and lose all their presets. Or they'll inadvertently clear their memory and lose the patches they've been tweaking for months. You can almost hear the screams of anguish from several miles away. They also figure out that their finely crafted patches they did at home become useless the minute they play out in a packed to the rafters bar or one that's laid out galley style. while they're sitting and fiddling with patches between sets, the guy with the old tube amp has reached back and rolled off his treble or boosted the mids on the fly in the middle of a song. A month later the modeling fan is standing in guitar center asking the sales guy "dudeeee...you got something with knobs that sounds good for about 500 bucks?!"While there are any number of exceptions, what I see is a push for digital and modeling amps being used by kids starting out, purely recreational players and those that don't want to piss off the neighbors while they're noodling away in the living room, and people that do a lot of home recording that requires a lot of different sounds that are easily accessible. Once the players mature, in experience not necessarily in age, you'll see them gravitating more toward less complicated more bare bones analog equipment and using effects pedals on the front end of their equipment. I don't really foresee tubes and analog going anywhere anytime soon. what I do see is something of a reshuffling of the market mix.So here's my prediction on where things are going if you're in the electronics service industry, and I'm more than willing to admit that I may be way off base.First, learn to work on EVERYTHING! Guitars, amplifiers, mixers, monitors, computer power supplies; if it plugs into a wall learn to deal with it.Second, learn to scratch build custom equipment. I don't mean cobbled together home brewed stuff that looks decent. I mean top shelf high grade perfect fit and finish equipment. People will come in with off the rail ideas about what they want and can't find it "off the rack" as it were. There's also the prestige factor that they've got something that nobody else has. There's serious bank here but you better be able to deliver with premium build quality.Third. Mods and Hotrods! Techs need to be able to do tweaks and modifications to existing equipment. This can range from switches that do oddball things, to changes in the overall tone, to adding effects loops and midi switching. This also includes all sorts of microcontroller based madness.So basically, you need to be really diversified in what you can do and this means you're also going to need some serious engineering chops on both the design and manufacturing side of things. If you can't be a master of most trades and he jack of a few then you're dead in the water. On the plus side, this is also going to weed out all the hacks and butchers who barely know which end of a firestick they're supposed to hold on to.

author: kc9qvl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 04:25:34 am
content: When asked about difficul, Not impossible, things. My usual reply is "Just about anything can be done, Just how much money do you want to put into it". Then get the customer right into budgets and time frames. At least my boss asks me not tells me how long something will take.

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 03:57:43 pm
content: I wouldn't feel right if i didn't contribute to this postMAN.. I FEEL WHAT YOUR SAYINGMy Profession is , I"m a Computer Engineer and Telecommunications Techniciani do Computer, Networks, Satellite, Terrestrial, Phone Lines , Broadband, Intercom SystemsI've been running my business now for over 13 yearsI'm also a Technical Professional and ExpertAND I MAKE SURE THAT I EXPLAIN THAT TO A CUSTOMERYou want an Example, Here's a very basic One, Simple and Straightforward,but.. it proves the pointSCENARIO: (Relating to Satellite Dish Installation for Optus D2, Religious Channels, HOPE TV, the client is a low income earning islander living in Mount Druitt)- I installed the Satellite Dish Installation and got everything working- Prior to installing it, we had agreed on a price, the client got me to come out 3 times and each time he promised he had the money ready for Payment on completion of workwhen i get there, he says "Sorry bro, the dole cheque didnt come in, or it did, but he had to buy smokes-anyway, it's all installed and it works- the Satellite Receiver is Plugged into AV1 onto the TV input- the client has been trained as to how to use the System, and has demonstrated that they understand it.- i get paid , i leave, the client is happyabout a week goes by, the client calls up and says "the HOPE channel is not working"- i do the standard troubleshooting, check cables , Power etc- the facts, the Receiver is plugged in- the power is ON and lights are visible on the receiver indicating power- Client Turns to AV1 input using his TV Remote, but there is no picture IT'S JUST BLACKso.. obviously, over the phoneit's clear that either- RCA Cables have been unplugged or- The Video Connector on the rear of the receiver is not functional or- the client is on the Wrong Input channelI'M insisting that he has the cable unplugged or is on the Wrong inputhe insists he can see AV1 When he changes the input - i decide to trust him on iti get him to trace the cable from AV1 on the TV back to the Set top box and make sure it's all connected correctlyhe does thatHE SAYS IT'S ALL CONNECTEDHe insists i come outi told him the call out fee is $80if it's a faulty receiver ,it'll be free of charge (warranty replacement and no call out fee)i get there onsitei ask the client to show me the problem and reproduce itNOW.. Within 1 MinuteI trace the cable from AV1 on the TV to AV out on the VIDEO PLAYER (not the Set Top Box)i check the video in the Video Player (the Cassette inside is.. THE WIGGLESwithout telling the client what the problem is, just yeti politely asked himis it possible that your children could have touched the cables (Even though i know it's the case)he swears black and blue, it's not the casei showed him the cable trace from TV to Videoi then Unplug the cable from Videoand return it to the Satellite ReceiverOBVIOUSLY, the picture comes back oni Explain to the client that the screen was black becasue while plugged into the Video, the video was Powered OFFand because they originally didn't have an RCA cable for the video, it's very logical to assume that the kids rigged up the wiggles, then left it that way, and went out to playLong Story short,he thought about it, and accepted my resolutioni charged him $80 Callouthe complained as to why he was paying $80 for about 5 minshis words were "You did nothing, You just plugged in 1 cable"Now.. Not that i should have tobut.. for the sake of harmony between client and Engineer, i offered to lower my fee to $50he counter offered with $20I told him to not worry about itwe had this long conversation (for about 45 mins.... Time Wasted, not working)at the end of the dayi said to himLook, .. Not to be rude, but..I'm an Engineer, I'm a professional Person, I'm an Expert in my Field.Now.. Your looking at it from a point of view of Time Taken vs How much you payI could have taken longer if i wanted , Would that then mean you pay me moreListen, i tried to work this out wtih you over the phonei asked you to follow 1 Cable , and you said it was plugged in correctlyYou called ME out , You said you couldn't itNOW.. that's the differencethe reason why i'm quick is because i'm a professionalYOUR NOT PAYING ME FOR TIME,Your paying me for my KnowledgeYour paying me because i have more knowledge than 90% or Antenna Installers that you could calli have the knowledge and experience to fix things quicklyYour paying me because you didn't know how to fix it yourself............... rightotherwise why would you pay meYour paying for the solution, not for the timeHe Refused to pay my fee, He offered me $20 and tried to act all Religious and Honourablei told him , he could keep his $20i explained to him what it means to be an engineerI explained to him that i didn't go to Uni For 6 Years, and read, God only knows how many books, and sit through god knows how many lectures,and i don't sit up until 5 in the morning reading Wikipeadia on certain subjects that interest me for nothingbut i certainly don't do all that, and put in the effort to be an engineerOnly to have someone Bargain with me on Priceand to offer me (excuse the french) a Mesely F#$ing $20My Fees are reasonable as they are$80 is industry standardi told the clientfor the same work in a commerical evironment my fee is $320 Per houri told the client to keep his moneyi told the client that i have never blacklisted any client in the past, but now he is blacklistedi told the client, for the sake of peace, i would rather he use another installer in the futureand..if he decides to use me, there would be conditionsthey arewhen i'm on the phone with him .. (Before i call out to his site)he must pay the fee upfront to my bank account before i come outif i come out and it's a warranty issue, I'll refund the money to him. ON THE SPOTHe has never called againI have learned Overtime, Stick to your rates (keep them reasonable)and never change themno one gets discounts (your rates should already been reasonable for everyone)not even $1 off (you have to be strict)Now, in doing this, You will filter out the unwanted clients, and you will be left with good clientsthese good clientsyou treat well, because they treat you well8 Years ago, a lot of my clients had trouble paying or were complaining for whatever reasontoday My clients commonly say"Come out.. Don't worry about the cost, Whatever you say, we will pay"and i can almost guarantee that when i get onsite, i'm not only going to get paid, and be thanked, and treated as a professionalthey will Serve me Coffee,they Feed MeMy Customers Now are the absolute bestand i treat them wellin doing so, they respect me as an Engineer and a professionalI don't really need to do anymore marketingWord Now gets around, and they talk me upit's pricelessit's simply a filtering processbut.. Stick to you gunsCharge your FeeYour a Professional, You deserve itand remember something i like to say commonlyCLIENTS ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE USThey don't have the knowledge or the experience or the UnderstandingHence.. THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO HAVE AN OPINION ON THE MATTERPS. some people will take this comment as arrogance,If you do, You've missed the pointIF YOU UNDERSTAND IT, You will Know what im sayingTHAT'S MY 2 CENTS WORTHI have more stories, but i don't want to hog the forum

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 04:09:00 pm
content: SORRY , i forgot to say one last thingI Don't value Money too highlyi Commonly Turn Down work based on Ethicsi recently turned down a Job that i quoted $33,000 for, (it was 30 Apartments, Terrestrial Installation, 4 wall Points per Apartment)i quoted $33,000i attended a meeting of the board FREE OF CHARGE to explain why it had to be done the way i proposedThey got a cheaper Quotethe quote was $3,000 for everythingthey asked me to do it cheaperi warned them to not accept this quoteBUT. THEY DIDi Refuse to accept jobs that put me in a position that would show others that i'm not a professionali Commonly Get asked"Can you get us Foxtel illegally by Chipping receivers or by burning Smartcards""Can you just run a cable to the other room from my Reciever" (when it should be done properly, via a Modulator or via a Dual LNB)"Just run the coaxial cable down the wall, don't worry about the power cables that are running along side the coaxial cable"I absolutely refuse to do these jobsi do the job right,and my rule isIT'S DONE MY WAY, OR... I DON'T DON'T THE DO THE JOBin which case, i refer to client to other techies , who i know , are good at heart, but, .. realistically don't have as much experienceafter a while clients get the picture , and they all inevitably end up coming back 2 to 3 years laterits simply a cyclei try to tell them upfront that they'll be back in 3 years,and they can avoid all this and save thousands of dollarsbut.. Sadly , people don't listenYour right to refuse the jobandif something is impossiblethen.. it's impossibleif clients are stupidthen Don't listen to a stupid person's instructions, that , then makes you stupidstick to your guns

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 04:41:12 pm
content: BTO, consider cutting down on the XXXX Gold.

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 04:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: Kohanbash on April 06, 2014, 01:56:14 am

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 05:10:36 pm
content: Back in the early 90's when I was doing basic car stereo/alarm/car cell phone installation as a part time gig, I was forever being asked to install a car stereo by cutting out the wiring harness and direct wiring. Standard reply was no wire harness/dash kit-no installation. One time a guy who got my name, asked me to look at his car. I get there, the dash bits around the radio are gone, all the wires hanging out of the hole where the radio goes are black and there is a smoke smell in the car. He said a friend of his tried to install his stereo and started a fire. He wanted to know if I could install his radio and make it work. I shook his hand, told him to have a nice day and got back in my car and left. He was bummed out, but he couldn't pay me enough to fix that mess. Nowadays, I do a little computer work on the side, mostly for friends, as I don't want to be married to stranger's computers. My rates are very reasonable as it is not my primary source of income. There have been times, when I have quoted a price for work, I get asked why can't I come to their house, reinstall the OS, install all updates and patches, install all software and peripherals and wash their car and clean their windows for $25 with a lifetime warranty like on Craigslist. I say I can't match that price but if they need me to fix what that $25 tech did, the hourly rate doubles with a minimum of 2 hours in advance, whether it takes 2 hours or 5 minutes and they will have to bring the computer to me. I never hear from them again. Interestingly, my friends never seem to argue price with me. I don't make near as much pocket money, but I am much happier in the long run.Good, fast and cheap--you only get 2 out of 3. If you want good and cheap, it won't be fast. If you want good and fast, it won't be cheap and if you want fast and cheap, it won't be good.

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 02:55:09 am
content: @ Bored@Worki don't udnerstandPlease Clarify...What is XXXX Gold

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 03:19:38 am
content: Quote from: BTO on April 26, 2014, 02:55:09 amLMGTFY,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXXX_GoldIn other words, you write or act drunkenly..Tim

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 08:48:14 am
content: I think $200 was not enough, and you would have regretted taking that job. It happens that I'm in the industry now...I left my engineering job a few years back to build/repair guitars, and now I build pedals and other widgets. As you say, tubes and analog are here to stay. I hear about the "demise" of analog circuitry every year it seems, and it's always complete nonsense. A keyboard, no matter how good the samples are, will never replace a real orchestra, and digital modeling will never replace a real amp. It has it's place, just like various overdrive pedals have their place, but I don't see that place being replacement.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 10:58:26 am
content: If you are a businessman you can do that.Inside a corporate business we have the same s*it but then we can't say to our "client" then called a projectleader to take his business elsewhere.Fast scenario scetch:PL: our client needs some extra requirements met and it has to be done in two weeks can you guys do thatUs: what are the exact requirementsPL: they are something like this and that and the biggest requirement is two weeks it has to be finishedUs: that is not exact, if we don't know >90% of the requirements we can't give a good estimation and surely don't know exactly what we need to build.so we propose to spent next week to clarify all the requirements, make a design that will fit the existing architecture and then tell you how long it will take, but BTW what you already asked is going to be more then a couple of weeks to design,build and test.PL: good do that as long as it is all finished in two weeks and walks off.This happens more often then you think.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 12:31:53 pm
content: about the OP story,i would just tell him that there's 2 ways to do this.A) the correct way which will cost $XB) the cheap and dirty way which is a roll of the dice as to if the amp will burn outGive him the choice and say if he picks B you require him to sign something saying he accepts that.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 01:28:13 pm
content: It's not worth the grief IMHO. Option A means you get paid a decent rate for doing a good job. Option B means you're at risk of an unhappy customer who blames you for wrecking his equipment and will no doubt spread the word.I wouldn't be inclined to touch option B with a long pole... too little to gain and too much to lose.

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 04:49:55 pm
content: sorry mateyou meant XXXX as in the Beersorry, my Badfunny thing actuallyi read your post , then i went away to make a cup of coffee (i actually don't drink alcohol at all)and then i saw a XXXX Commercial and i thought to myselfOhh.. that's what he meantLOL10 Years later i got itLOL

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 05:24:28 pm
content: RE : psi's comment................ Exactly, Exactly rightRE Kjelt's commentActually you can tell themi can appreciate you saying that if im a business owner that i can do what i want,However, Actually, When your a business owner its more critical than just working for someoneif you work for someone, You don't have to give a rats arse if you lose the client, the worst you get for a first offenseis a warning........ so whatif you own a business, the Worst you get, is No Money and then you have to go home and Wonder where you stuffed up and how you can recover the businessbut, You seeIT'S ALL ABOUT BUSINESS, It's nothing to do with emotionsYour Reasonable in what your sayingif a client or Project Leader, Just lays it down, and says "2 weeks it has to be done or heads will roll" but .. We don't know what has to be done specificallyand then he walks offThat's Just ArroganceYour options are this1. Try to contact him again and make him understand that WORK CANNOT COMMENCE UNTIL WE KNOW WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONEand After we establish that, A Reasonable time frame MUST BE ALLOWEDYou can't just be a Project Leader and Walk in, (on a Power trip of ... i'm the sort of guy that can get anything done faster than anyone... sort of bullshit)and just dream up a time frame like 2 weeks for a 5 week jobHe needs to be reasonable ,2. If he doesn't want to be reasonable, Then in the Corporate world we look upon that as "Unacceptable behaviour" in business World we look upon that as "You can go and Get #$%"3. if he doesn't want to come back and talk about it.......... then....fine,Let him return in 2 Weeks and see that nothing has been doneand then let him ask, Why has nothing been doneAnd the Answer is Simple,it's because He did not allow Reasonable Discussions to take place to outline the Job Specifications4. Your job can't be allowed to be on the line for this ridiculous behaviour,Pushing employees to go faster and achieve deadlines is one thing, Asking for the impossible, or something that you can't do yourself, i unacceptable5. if you do actually end up getting the sack if you left it for 2 weeks and nothing got done, and you explained your point to the boss and he didn't want to hear it.then.. Your better off leaving anywaybecause your options areif your boss is a dick then he will continue to be a dick and you will have to continue to put up with that bullshithowever if you leave, you can find a better positiionONE THING I NOTICED WHEN I STARTED WORKING FOR MYSELF was this...People who work for others get screwed BIG TIMEthey are usually on about $10 - $20 per hour , if they are luckyand for that average $15 per hour you are made to work your guts off for your bossi started on my first day working for myself to be on $80 per hournow i'm up to $320 per hourdo i work anywhere near as hard as i used to ,when i worked for someone.................... Hell No, Not even closei used to be on $600 a week or so and it was bullshit and you had a shit boss or a client who thought he was superior to youand you knew that if you didn't make good with the solution you could lose your job that day.Now, I'm on ....(well, i won't say it, because it's not really anyone's business, but let's just say that i exceed $5,000 in profit every week, and on average every year my income rises by quiet a bit and let's leave at that)but, i have to work hard for that income, but i don't feel anywhere near the stress that i used to before my own businessthe Rule is SimpleNo one can ask you to do something impossible.if you put up with itYour complicating your own life and making your own life miserableI always ensure that i'm polite to my clientsi always do my best to get the job done safely by their deadlines, and most times i dobut sometimes clients need to be put in their place and told what is possible and what is not possiblemy magic line is"I UNDERSTAND the urgency, but Unfortunately what your asking cannot be done in that time periodWhat i can offer is this"and then if they reject your offeryou then say"Well, then, i'm really sorry but like i said, it can't be done in the time period your asking, if it could be done, i would do it, but it can't be done"That way, they make the decision to do something that can't be doneas for giving them the option to accept a half arsed jobsome guys will do this and get them to sign somethingand i one way i agree with thatin another way, i stay away from itbecause, at the end of the day, if they accept the half arsed job and pay for it, they will forever whinge about what a shit job you did,they won't tell people it was their fault,it'll be your faultpeople like this are not worth dealing withWhen you play with the big boys, they understand these thingsand in a nutshellyou rock up to the site,they tell what needs to happenthey ask you how much does it costthey ask, how long will it takethey paythey wait for the result (But they expect it ON TIME)a client that tells you how long a job should take is a headache, Don't deal with themin the long run you make more money if you don'tThat's my adviseand .. i do understand the position your in.it's not easy, but you need to get out of that positionand.. if that means leaving your job.... then......... sorry mate, but that's what you have to doEvery business owner ,at some point makes a leap of faithleaves his secure job to start a business with no prospect or security of income,it's just a matter of how badly do you want it to work and what will you do to get it.example, Look at dave here, Point in fact.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 06:48:06 pm
content: You have some weird way of expressing yourself. And What's with Capitalizing random Words?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 07:36:54 pm
content: @BTOI hear ya and agree with a lot you're saying, I heard this from some friends also.To be honest I am not someone that gives up a steady job/income just like that, I need some kind of security before taking that step. Call it fear or insecurity, fine with me, I acknowledge that I have those needs. Look at it like a monkey that does not let go of the previous branch before grabbing the next oneAnyway for this year I have moved myself a bit away from the daily stress in the company last year and put myself on a more R&D project where nobody knows when it should be finished or that there will be any usefull results. Gives me some air.But those PL's that do not understand anything but the customer do piss me off, sure they have a valid point in keeping the customer satisfied but there must be some negotiation and sensible (knowledgable) persons in between that translate the customer wishes into a reasonable timeframe. Anyway it will sort itself out, some valuable personell has already left and management is feeling pressure to fill the holes left and they can't find qualifying engineers.BTW $300+ an hour? That is incredible, I do not know anyone that makes that kind of money, and then doing install jobs?You're clientele must be loaded to pay such an hourly wage, but very good for you!

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 08:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: BTO on April 27, 2014, 05:24:28 pmWhat is your job title and what do you do?!As for clients asking stuff go here:http://clientsfromhell.net/Mostly deals with computer techs and graphics artists, but the same idea as this thread is all over that site. Probably worse so.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 09:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: Tinkerer on April 27, 2014, 08:42:34 pmDo you seriously believe these numbers, assuming he "communicates" with his customers the way he "communicates" here?

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 09:22:22 pm
content: It's all well and good earning $320 an hour, but not if you only worked 1 hour a month (at that rate).

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 10:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on April 27, 2014, 09:10:08 pmWho knows, but at least if hes lying he can dig a deeper hole.

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 12:23:40 am
content: LOLi just read all your postsYou guys are funny and you certainly put a smile on my face this morning before work.I'll address each of your points in this Post@ Zbig - regarding my weird way of expressing myself,I'm not sure how to respond to that, only to say that it's not the first time a person has called me strange, or not normal, but hey, Who wants to be normal anyway.Regarding the Random Capitalization...it's not Random THE REASON Why i do it, Such as what i just did here , is to put emphasis on a pointWhen i write a longer post, i know that people might skim through it and miss a few important points, so..i may choose to Capitalize some important points to make them stand outSome might call this yelling in an email (it's not yelling, it's emphazising) that's all@Kjelt LOL, Thanks mate, appreciate your final comment at the bottom there.Actually my residential Clients don't pay $320 an Hour (your right, they don't have sort of money), My Corporate clients pay that sort of money, and Yesthey do have that sort of money, But, Then, That's expected of Larger Corporations.as for .. you don't know anyone who makes this kind of money....That's really weird, i know tonnes of people who do , and some even make more than i do,i even know one guy that Makes $10K a Day (yes.. A Day, that's incredible, not $320 an hour)What i make is pretty cool, but not incredible (most of us seem to fall between the approx.. $150 - $900 per hour mark across the board, the average would be 200-300 i guessas for the rest of your comment, primarily regarding your not the type to leave a steady job, and you need security.i totally understand you mate.However, That's the trick isn't it,i wish there was an easier way (i really do) but everyone that i know who has gone into business for themselves and started with nothing, Has done so by deciding that they are nolonger going to invest time into some else;s business, but instead they are going invest time into their own business.and sadly there are no guarantees.The Truth is i Went almost 3 Years making bugger all and wondering if i made a mistake , and it was hard, i won't lieYou start out by (As you stated) not wanting to let go of that security branch) so to speakand i did that too, i was trying to doing my primary job , and then, Part time , work on my business, THAT DOESN'T WORKI has to be ALL OR NOTHING. And that's how it goes.@ Tinkerer LOL, Titles are not important (Who gives a Stuff what my title is)When clients ask me to do a job they don't say "What's your title" they say "Can you fix it?"But, Since you Ask and for the sake of answering your questionit's Computer Engineer / Telecommunications Technician(i know telecommunication in great depth, so much to the point where i probably could be considered an Engineer, but.. i don't yet have my Degree in Telecomms)the Services i offer are as follows :Computer and NetworkingTV Antenna's and Satellite (SMATV AND MATV)CablingPhone Lines and BroadbandIntercom SystemsAudio Visual SystemsConsulting Services (i Consult Companies on the state of their Websites and How to Optimize their sites for Better Performance)Now understand something as well, the reason i make money is because, Honestly a lot of computer Techies don't have half a clue about what they are talking about, Most know how to formata PC and that's about it, Some work in Server Rooms and know what they need to know for their job and that's thatbut almost 90% of are just content to do their job and not learn anything newthen you have the rest of the guys who start their own business, but go on about how hard it is and how there is no work around.well, that's because they don't want to travel further than 5km from home, and they only care to know enough to just do their job,so.. When a Difficult situation arises out of the scope of what they normally do, they are stumpedComputer Techies, think that most things are fixed with a reformat but have trouble With Wireless Network Fundamentals and can't figure it outAntenna guys, Stick to Antennas and they know nothing else, and they don't usually even know how to do that properly because they are given a 3 Day course from MatchmasterSatellite Guys, know Antenna's and Satellites, but they don't seem to want to know how to do C Band Dishes, They generally call me and ask mein Short, i Make a Majority of my money from these guys stuff ups,the client is happy to pay me, especially since they have already paid about 5 Guys to come out, Who have charged but haven't fixed the issueso.. buy the time i get there, I'm a Breath of fresh air, My Job is Easy-Don't charge for the callout, do a free Quote and Call out- Promise them that if the issue isnt' fixed, i'll fix it free of charge (other guys don't do that)so, that way a client has no way out, they take the option, and it worksand then its like "Thank god" and they tell all their freinds and business associates.the bottom line is, i put more effort in that the other guys doi actually care about my clientsi care about what i doand i don't even do Shit Work or sell shit parts just to be cheaperi will actually tell them, I'm not the cheapest guy around, Not even close, but then.. I'm not out to rip anyone off either, What i charge is Very Fair for what i deliver.@Bored@Work LOLFair Comment , i suppose.the fact is you don't have to believe me, You can hate if you like, that's also ok (i'm not here to brag) I just like to help people from time time that look like they need a hand.Regarding How i communicate. You should never assumebut.. i communicate with different people in different waysYour Tradies, YES, i talk to them like i speak on this site, Tradies don't want to hear bullshit or Sales Speeches, they just want the job done.Your Corporate Suits - No, of course i don't speak to them like this, Corporate Speak is different to Tradie SpeakCorporations require me to get dressed up all nice in a nice clean suit and give a formal presentation of my works in front of a board of directors or a body corporate,in a board room, All while we all stand around and act "Ever So Civilized" LOL it's all a charade, but.. You have to play their game and dress up for them if you want themto pay you.Different people want to be spoken to in different ways, That's Called Effective client communication, it doesn't always have to be nice and polite, Just EffectiveI've spent 20 Years in hospitality, so i know what your saying, and in saying that, this forum is more relaxed and you guys are not my clients after all , so i talk to you guyslike you speak to me.@ David_AVD Very true David, Thankfully i don't work 1 hour a Monthbut in saying that, When i started out an i was on $80 per hour approx, even if i worked 4 hours of the day (start at 7am, finish up by 11 am) and no jobs left because it wasslow, i still made my $200 a day, didn't i ?or.. You could have a job that was bigger and let's say it was $2,500 or something like that, and let's say that was the only job for the whole week (so What)After cost, you still bring in $2,000 for the week and you get to relax for the whole week if you like, it's still viableso.. that's how i started, Now i Work Between 60-80 Hours per week, obviously it varies since i generate my own work, but i always do at least 60 hours.@Tinkerer Fair enough, and your right, i could be lying to just try and impress everyone for whatever reason,but if i am full of crap ,then your right, i dig myself a deeper holeGuys, i didn't mention how much i earnt to impress you guysi mentioned it for 2 reasons1. Because i honestly thought that you guys were on similar money (apparently i was wrong)2. i just wanted to help these guys out who were having trouble, at first i thought they were working for themselves and dealing with difficult clients, then i realized, they work for an employerand i wanted to offer a better solution,that's why i said iti hope i have helped someonesorry for the long post

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 12:41:05 am
content: Actually guysi've had another think about thisI now feel weird and left out, mainly because i thought you guys were on similar incomesand i read my last post and it was Hugeit also comes across as if im showing offso.. for the sake of not making it worseif i keep replying to all this stuff, it's just going to be more long Postsso, if you guys have questions about my income PM meif you want help on how to get started PM meI'm happy to help anyone who wants to help themselves and who is serious about changing their lifeI started with Nothing Literally, and I've worked hard for what i have today, but, i did it without Stressingso.. PM if you want to talk further about thisBesides the subject of this thread is Impossible clients, Not my incomeBE COOL GUYS

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 01:01:37 am
content: I want to comment also on Kjelt's Last PostHow he said----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------But those PL's that do not understand anything but the customer do piss me off, sure they have a valid point in keeping the customer satisfied but there must be some negotiation and sensible (knowledgable) persons in between that translate the customer wishes into a reasonable timeframe. Anyway it will sort itself out, some valuable personell has already left and management is feeling pressure to fill the holes left and they can't find qualifying engineers.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------That's exactly rightand that's what Happens.. of courseSome important points here are1. Don't stress.. Because whether you stress or not (read the part again) I'll repeat it..WHETHER YOU STRESS OR NOT,Either Way it still ends the same way, so if you think about it,You can choose to NOT stress because it'll end the same way anyway. LOL2. Just like Market Forces and Natural Forces, You have industrial Forces.Now an example of a Market force is (if a client wants something enough, they will findthe money to get it)An Example of a Natural force is : that scene in "Wolf of Wall Street"Where Leonardo di Caprio has to sail to that country in Bad Weather.it doesn't matter if he wants to be unreasonable or not, He wont get there in 1 piece,Regardless of how badly he wants to get there, this needs to be understoodNow the Industrial Forcethese dictate that if your unrealistic with a deadline the deadline wont happen andyou will run behind scheduleto prove a fact....Just like Kjelt saidthe PL didn't want to understandso.. there has to be some sensible person to get the logic across to the PLif the PL still doesn't understandPeople will leave, of course, because No one can be expected to do the impossibleand people know thatYou get to a point where your paycheck is not worth what your doing,at this point people tend to leave AND THEY DIDthen, the company suffers Stress and set backsand as Kjelt stated "Management is feeling the pressure"according to physics , Pressure MUST be released at some point before it becomes too greatif it's not released, Pressure causes explosionsHence the "Holes left to fill"Now because of 1 Unreasonable PL the company is losing employees and has holes in the companyIndustrial forces dictate that if this company can only do one of two things now.1. Keep going the way it's going, Lose all it's employees 1 by 1 and Go out of businessall for that 1 PLor2. The company can learn from it's mistake and Educate the PLif the PL can't be educated then he Must be the one to leave or go out of businessin summarylike i saidit's not worth dealing with this sort of person, They are damaging to a businessYou can't fight forces that dictate how things will be , that's a factand we will see how this will end.. Won't we?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 01:16:32 am
content: How many letters...

author: BTO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 03:16:05 am
content: yeah i know... sorryhence my last postit's just easier if people PM me

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 05:06:23 am
content: When I saw that rate $320ph. I was envious but I didn't really doubt it, I was thinking IT consultant, corporate clients. This is $A so say it is $300 US.They know how to spend stupid money, if they need a job done.I knew a girl who worked for Westpac (bank) as an IT project manager. Wasn't really experienced but she was well organised.Her project was in the middle of all the other Westpac IT systems so she had stacks of other IT systems that she interconnected with.So together with another worker they drew out all the relevant interconnections as a large system diagram. She needed this just to understand how it was all working.When her bosses saw it, they all wanted a copy of it, so they organised a graphic design house to pretty up her diagram, (which was large).The bill from the Graphic designer was $50,000. And that was about year 2000.Also had this IT boss once who you used to subcontract himself out occasionally, he was getting $3-5,000 per day for the company.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 06:22:22 am
content: @BTOYou remind me about my mistake long time ago, i was paid $5 for repairing some kind of controlled crane.I say to the client pay as you appreciate me. And he give me $5.(even not enough for buy the gasoline for get there).So, couple month after, he call me again ask for my help. I refuse and say. good luck finding people/company that can replace all the electrical installation, because nobody else can fix it...

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 06:59:11 am
content: Yeah, clients can be ignorant and overpay.But are you implying that you can't walk into some infrastructure and not figure out how it works?Believe it or not, you are replaceable.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 08:14:40 am
content: What is overpay? Maybe we all (normal working engineers) get underpaid.I don't see why a lawyer fresh out of university can charge their clients $250 an hour and EE's get $40 start salary an hour. There are things wrong in this world and I love to see at least one guy holding the long end of the rope.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 08:32:55 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 28, 2014, 08:22:11 amNot sure that is morally acceptable..But hey, this is a cruel world after all..

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 08:44:04 am
content: Actually a lot of people are doing things like this by not documenting their code properly

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 08:44:31 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on April 28, 2014, 08:14:40 amSimple, If you are employed by a company they have to make money out of you to be profitable, so yes we (all that work for a company) are all underpaid.Sure you can do it on your own, but in most cases you won't get the job unless you are an IT consultant for a small project. For a large project you need a team and companies can provide that. And because they are the ones that get the jobs, they can decide how much to pay you so the profit margin is good for the company, giving stability to their employees, etc..Consulting is a choice but risky until you have an established clientele.And @mojo-chan it really doesn't work that way if you work for a serious company that does peer reviews. And even if you work for smaller companies, your reputation will precede you.But you do what you think is right

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 08:47:06 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on April 28, 2014, 08:44:04 amI've worked on many legacy code from third party vendors or ex-employees. If they saw my changes they will think they wrote them themselves. And code is documentation btw, at least it is to me.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 11:41:22 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on April 28, 2014, 08:47:06 am... like for a complex calculation a former colleague has done by writing 20 pages of math to find the formula and simplify it. Your boss asks you to add just a tiny parameter to that and you got only the code