Flagging unreliable / deceitful Chinese vendors - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: precaud
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 01:04:48 pm
content: Like many of us here, over the last few years, I've turned more frequently to buying some items directly from sellers in China due to attractive pricing. Mostly little stuff (parts, meters, accessories), and mostly through eBay, but some through other sites. On average, about 2 out of 10 of the transactions have issues, covering the gamut from wrong item sent, item arrives broken or breaks in use, item is counterfeit, item sent but never arrives, fake tracking numbers given for an item never sent, etc. And there was one ordered and paid but never shipped.So far this year, I have had one each of the above described situations. In only one of them (a counterfeit NVRAM module) did the seller "make it good" by refunding or replacing. Two of them I had to file claims, one through eBay, one through Paypal. Another I'm about to deal with now.I am convinced that the most important thing we can do to curb these dishonest practices is to not do business with these vendors.The problem is, one distributor will saturate the market by selling under a variety of names. I became aware of this a few months ago when I ordered a meter from a mainland China seller on eBay. After 10 days, he still had not shipped. I asked for a refund, he refused. eBay stepped in and gave them three days to ship or refund, which they did not, and eBay then forced the refund. The process was a pain in the arse. I then ordered the same meter from a Hong Kong seller and it shipped right away. A couple days later, when logged on to Paypal, I happened to notice that both eBay transactions were paid to the same Paypal account. This same seller is doing business under half a dozen or so eBay handles, from different locations.I feel that what we need is to follow the money, and be as organized as they are. We need an ongoing list of seller names and the actual companies they are affiliated with, so we can avoid buying from these companies who have slimy business practices. The worst ones seem to be companies who do not specialize in anything, but sell just about anything you can imagine.The one I'm dealing with now is an eBay seller named "goldsummermail". This is just one of several of their eBay handles. They issue fake tracking numbers for replacement items, a number which only tracks through a website they give, the delay stretches the transaction beyond the window for processing claims, and then they drop the matter entirely.I don't know if eevblog is the place to do it, but I thought I'd start the conversation here and get your input on how best we can deal with this.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 01:52:06 pm
content: I've also had most of those situations when dealing with these kinds of suppliers, mostly from eBay. Some that have sent the wrong item, or something not as described a few times. Mostly they are willing to provide refunds, some have tried to haggle. I had one that tried across several messages back and forth to get me to accept a 50 cent discount of off a $1.50 (shipped) item that was useless to me. I had to open a case for them to actually provide a full refund.Regarding items never showing up, surprisingly, the shipping between China and the US is faster and more accurate than I would have expected for such cheap shipping rates. I've only had a few items never arrive. I can certainly understand that an item might get delayed along the way, but I am noticing that many shippers are extending the shipping time to 45-60 days! Then like you mentioned, they'll offer a replacement that extends the arrival time beyond the claims window. This actually just happened to me, and I was strung along by friendly messages.I've now decided that If I don't receive the item the first time, I will ask for an immediate refund and if they don't comply I will open a claim.I think trying to build a list of the slimy sellers might be a large, time consuming task.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 02:13:42 pm
content: Problem is a lot of these vendors are students or non techies bulk buying or drop shipping and have no idea what they're selling let alone how to validate it so they're not always dodgy, they're getting burned too by just reselling whatever they can lay hands on in huge volumes to make a few pennies per item.The ones I 'know' and trust are the ones who refund rapidly when things go wrong (there are plenty that are very fair) and they get the bulk of my business but there's always something I want that they don't sell so I am trying new sellers most months.I rarely get burned (one or two notable exceptions)I have had refunds on items which have been held up in customs too which makes me feel bad because the item did eventually turn up, just a few months later and I had no way to pay the seller as they'd vanished.Knowing which parts are likely to be fake is useful, RF power devices for instance, if they're long obsolete parts they're probably fake but even there, there are plenty of reliable sellers, the problem is there aren't as many reliable sellers as there are unreliable ones.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 02:54:47 pm
content: I get all of what is said here. Recently, I purchased a Aneng multimeter which just never showed up at my door. After complaining on the ebay site they refunded my payment but the seller would not issue a refund. I just got alot of canned messages with the usual dear friend and my love salutations. This kind of makes you hate the whole ebay and chinese system. Ebay is a real pita too. You never seem to get a real person in their emails. The appeals process sends you around and around, just trying to get you to communicate with the seller. Total bullshit.I cant fathom why they have something on ebay where the seller has something like tracking. Tracking means nothing. Ebay goes on and on in the appeals process about how they are not actually selling anything. Then their final decision is based on if the seller can provide tracking verification in the dispute. If I were a dishonest person, and I wanted to game the system I would dispute every item sent from China or Hong Kong and get a refund based on the fact that most sellers of cheap stuff say they use the tracking method but dont. BTW that lets the postal system off the hook so if a dishonest mailman rips you off and you dont dispute the purchase as non delivered you become the patsy. Chinese sellers should give you the option of paying a few cents more to get certified tracking, or a system that requires acknowledgement from the postal service in writing.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:15:56 pm
content: Even if as many as one in 20 items didn't turn up then I don't think I'd be too upset. When I buy from China I'm paying half the price I'd pay from a more reputable source, shipping is free, so ... it's still ahugewin overall.I've bought many hundreds of things from China and in my experience it's a lot less than 1 in 20, so...PS: I know a guy who doesn't see this logic at all. He gets extremely upset and talks about every minor problem for months on end.The world is imperfect, accept that. Be happy for the other 19+ times that things worked out perfectly.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:35:49 pm
content: Buy crap on aliexpress not eBay. The sellers will grovel and butt lick and you always get your money back.Either that or buy some respectable branded shit from a local large reputable seller.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:47:02 pm
content: Rather than an endless list of disgruntled people broadcasting their frustration about questionable products and dodgy sellers, most of which all probably employ a multitude of varying aliases, how about a dedicated "Another happy purchase from the East" or similarly titled thread which gives a recommendation and link to particular sellers who do conduct themselves in an honourable and trustworthy manner.We should share all the good times and not the bad ones, leave all the negativity with Ebay and Paypal during the claim process, they earned it.

author: precaud
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 27, 2018, 03:35:49 pmReally? They're better than eBay for processing claims? I would have thought the opposite.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:48:23 pm
content: Yeah almost instant resolution the last 4 complaints I made. Some vendors will even reship again free of charge so you don’t leave crap feedback.Edit: honestly most of what I’ve bought is pretty damn good.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 03:58:44 pm
content: Well if we're gonna do happy purchases from the East, these were ordered 3 weeks ago (when I posted up the Ultrasonic transducer thread) arrived yesterday and cost me less than a single transducer would have if bought in the UK:*edit

author: precaud
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 04:02:44 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on June 27, 2018, 03:47:02 pmPlease start your own thread for the good times, this one is about that bad !!

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 04:13:55 pm
content: Fine then, I will be back here tomorrow to post my three page "Hobby King Horror" trilogy so you better have a therapist or councillor on standby, torment, anguish and frustration over a three month period, disturbing stuff if ever there was.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 09:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: precaud on June 27, 2018, 03:47:35 pmThe difference is that there are so many sellers selling the same stuff at AliExpress that leaving bad feedback can mean they will never sell anything anymore as most people won't buy except from sellers with impeccable feedback score. So they will grovel and make everything possible to satisfy you (well, within reason).On eBay few hundreds of bad feedbacks get buried when you are selling thousands of cheap items. And there are no item reviews/evaluations neither, so if you sell crap, nobody else will know.Also AliExpress prices are often a lot cheaper than eBay because of lower fees and people selling stuff directly from Shenzen instead of first buying it from AliBaba and reselling it later as many eBay sellers do.

author: kizmit99
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 11:15:15 pm
content: Have to agree about AliExpress (and Bangood) -- every time I've had an issue the sellers have been responsive and I've always ended up either with a replacement or with a refund. Of course generally by the time the stuff arrives I've almost forgot why I ordered itThe oddest thing I've found is with ordering smooth rod for a 3D printer - everyone seems to put each rod in a piece of pvc pipe (presumably to keep it from getting nicked up in shipping), but they just put cellophane tape over the ends and ship it in a loose plastic bag. The rods pop through the tape and the bag very easily, and I find I only get about 70% of each order. Somewhere in the postal system is a pile of steel rods... The sellers just turn around a reship as soon as I let them know what's missing though...

author: precaud
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 12:47:16 am
content: That's interesting feedback, guys. Thanks for the perspective. I'll have to try it out. Can Paypal be used there? Or do I need to open yet another online payment account?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 12:56:33 am
content: Interestingly, the dodgiest ba***ard I ever encountered was some Aussie low life in an eBay sale. He even argued with eBay and they had to pull the funds from his bank A/c to reimburse us. Still we lost a bit due to exchange rate movements. Right proper a*hole he was.At least the Chinese in my experience will go to some length to right any wrongs to keep their reputation.

author: andyzoo
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 12:57:26 am
content: Feel very bad about you guys' experience.I am a Chinese, some of my friends work as an overseas distributor, they get products from factory and sell them on AMAZON, as they may deal with multiple lines of products, they may not be able to INSPECT correctly good quality...

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 03:27:24 am
content: I think it would be a lot easier to list the suppliers that don’t suck.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 05:34:44 am
content: Quote from: janoc on June 27, 2018, 09:58:59 pmThe first part is true, but then again, I typically check especially the bad seller reviews; they seem to have more often something "real" instead of "+++++". If most of the complaints seem to be "it took over a month to arrive!!!" when the seller has already mentioned it takes long, or other similar typical over-expectations from the consumer like "it is quite poor quality" (duh, its a $1 version of something that usually costs $10), I consider it a "good seller" (relatively). If the seller has e.g. a few "fake products" or plenty of "never arrived" in there then I will skip it.However, the latter part, about no item reviews, may depend on the product. Some items have the review possibility, some do not. If the item has no review option, and something was less than optimal, I transfer the feeling to seller review, either not giving positive review for the transaction (too low product quality but still usable, or such, or if it was really bad but seller was able to compensate/refund), or bad review (if seller fails to make me satisfied). I'm not buying lots from china, mostly items that I don't seem to find anywhere else, and so far all china sellers have either been ok, or low quality (but as expected for the low price), or have been able to satisfy me with their compensations/refunds.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 05:35:32 am
content: I have bought hundreds of things from Chinese sellers on ebay. Only ever had a couple of issues with items damaged in transit (one was a heavy stepper motor that must have been dropped very hard by someone) those issues were cheerfully taken care of instantly by the sellers. I would say my experience with Chinese sellers is around 100%.To be fair I never buy any components besides resistors. I'd rather pay a few cents more to get them from Digikey or Farnell and not risk wasting time with fakes.Americans on the other hand.. I'd say my happiness rate is closer to 50%. I've bought precision items advertised as 5 micron accuracy that arrived out by 2 millimeters. I've bought "brand new" items that looked like they had been to the battle of Al-Alamein and back. I try to avoid US sellers now, So many seem to be so dishonest.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 09:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: precaud on June 28, 2018, 12:47:16 amAliExpress/Alibaba used to offer Paypal but they stopped for some reason (likely because they introduced their own AliPay). But you can pay with a credit card no problem if you don't want to use their system (or some of the other options they offer).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 09:56:19 pm
content: They do take paypal on some orders. Not all of them. They charge you processing overheads for that though.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 10:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 28, 2018, 09:56:19 pmI wasn't aware of it being available under limited circumstances either.But since Banggood takes PayPal on all the items they offer, I'd think it the easier way to go (presuming they offer what you're after of course).

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 11:45:36 pm
content: I recently started buying on AliExpress again because they take PayPal again. There was no surcharge or anything. I look to see if they take PayPal, that is the only way I buy.I try to find the same products on Amazon, Banggood, Aliexpress ,and Ebay and purchase on the cheapest or most convenient at that time.I had some bad or missing items from ebay over the years but I was always able to come to a positive resolution directly or through ebay.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 12:31:25 am
content: It wouldn't surprise me if the Aliexpress rules on paypal varied based on the country being served. Probably for very good reasons in some cases.One big difference between Aliexpress and Ebay is that Aliexpress hold the funds until the buyer confirms he is happy or the clock runs out.

author: Seph.b
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 12:58:57 am
content: I buy almost everything on Aliexpress and Alibaba and have never been left unhappy with an order. I generally make sure the seller is established first and if buying quantity is not a reseller or only resells in a narrow product category so they know how to check quality. With less than 1 minute of review you can be almost certain to get decent quality. If you push to hard on the price expect the quality to reflect it, so if you haggle don't go to far.I even buy most my personal items on ali now and have found the quality to be far BETTER than US retail for less cost. I got a french press and a shower catty on aliexpress that I have never seen quality close to retail and for less than the other worse retail options.As for using paypal, almost every seller on either site will be happy to send you an invoice with paypal email address if you ask. You may not be able to get the same shipping options though. Especially on Alibaba they are going to want to ship DHL unless you use a middle man in China to arrange cheaper shipping options.A huge amount of things on Amazon are just people buying quantity on ali and reselling for a huge markup. I only use amazon if I really need the item as fast as possible. I avoid ebay like the plague, it is just Chinese resellers selling the cheapest things they can find at the mall for as much as they can get away with. I have gotten salvage parts a few times from ebay before I stopped even trying.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 08:07:28 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 28, 2018, 09:56:19 pmI think they accept it for everything these days but they add a percentage to the price when you choose it.

author: home_listening
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 09:25:06 am
content: Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to something more generic like "Flagging Unreliable / Deceitful Online Vendors". The tone of the whole thing seems to imply that people are getting ripped off left right and centre yet the experiences of the people posting and myself are of quite the opposite. I've never had a problem with an AliExpress or eBay purchase from Asia yet my white brothers in Australia are often deceitful and malicious when it comes to selling online.It seems like any issues that people have had with quality or losses in the postage system seem to be resolved with absolutely ZERO questions.I think this is only serving a stereotype that is just outdated if ever true.That said, don't buy secondhand ICs off ebay

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 01:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: home_listening on June 29, 2018, 09:25:06 amYep.Quote from: home_listening on June 29, 2018, 09:25:06 amOr anything in a TO220 package.(if you're planning on running it at the maximum values stated in the datasheet - at lower values it might be perfectly OK)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 01:18:50 pm
content: Also: Don't buy from sellers who sell for much less than everybody else for no good reason.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 01:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: home_listening on June 29, 2018, 09:25:06 amLess clue you have, more satisfied you will be. Depends on what you buy and how do you use parts. Also a lot positive feedback is left before parts were used or started to fail. Even more difficult to distinguish counterfeit opamps, especially without right equipment. In one case I discovered that stepper driver ICs I bought a year earlier would act as a bomb and destroy the circuit around had I ever powered them. Lucky me that I decided to measure pins with a multimeter and discovered that those were completely different stepper driver ICs from the same manufacturer which were relabeled. Package was exactly the same but pinout was completely different. The unlucky part was that I already soldered two of them into the circuit, so I ended up desoldering them and reordering the parts.