Hioki DT4282 or Brymen BM869s digital multimeter - which is the best choice? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 03:42:09 pm
content: Hioki DT4282:https://www.hioki.com/products/dmm_insulation_clamp/dmm/1431Brymen BM869s:http://www.brymen.com/product-html/cata860/Bm860s.htmThe Brymen has 500.000 counts, while the Hioki has only 60.000 counts, still the Hioki is much more expensive. How come?The build quality is most likely better in the Hioki. Japanese quality outperforms Taiwanese qualityAny specific advantages/disadvantages on each of these models, that would make the decision easier?

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 03:56:01 pm
content: Hioki is sexier too.I was disappointed they sell you an expensive separate module for connectivity. USB is okay, but IR? Are you serious? What about Bluetooth? They should bundle that shit into the DMM case and use that slot for interesting addons, like the functionality of these LCR/ESR transistor checkers and slots to insert components easily to check them.I did see some teardowns of Hioki DMMs. They seem to have good quality, but there are some obvious design flaws that some users wrote here (one was about traces fit the probes not being enough isolated, some DMM PCBs even have cutted parts to have extreme isolation).I also don't understand why they don't get full certifications from other organizations.They look promising and have good base, but they can do it better. Let's go Hioki! Your country survived lots of nasty shit and advanced more in technology in a short period of time, I'm sure you can kick the ass off Danhaler/Fluke mafia!Anyway I would buy one if their DMMs were cheaper, but these are made in Japan and I suppose they can't complete in costs with Taiwanese and Chinese fabs.Despite Hioki have two high precision DMM models with custom IC, they can't go to the precision of uCurrent. Maybe that's too much for a handheld DMM.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 04:27:30 pm
content: That Hioki has auto hold and a latched continuity test, but it's also almost 3 times the cost of the Brymen. Personally I'd get a Hioki if it was cheaper.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 05:45:14 pm
content: Well the Hioki has some real advantages over the Brymen. as already mentioned, auto hold is nice to have, most people prefer the latching continuity test, and it uses AA batteries which means it could be easier on the pocket for batteries because you can use rechargeables more easily.There are things that are better with the Brymen, on the other hand.It comes down to if you want to spend the extra money for a Hioki. And the price is around twice as much, not three times.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 05:50:36 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 24, 2015, 05:45:14 pmWell, you mention Brymen have better "things", but you don't provide data as facts. This is a geek forum, that should be mandatory to provide in the messages

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 06:02:36 pm
content: Here is a nice video from the Hioki Corporation about their DT4282 digital multimeterEnjoy the music! Very well put together!

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 06:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on August 24, 2015, 05:50:36 pmOK, a few quick things better on the BM869s: Dual temperature, CATIV/1000V, better AC accuracy for most of the bandwidth on volts and current.The BM869s and the DT4282 go back and forth on accuracy ratings and features. It is not easy to choose between them if they are the same price. So in reality it comes down to what features and specs are the most important, and if the price is what you want to pay for the things that are important to you.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 09:37:26 pm
content: The Hioki has internal memory (400 data points), shutters on the jacks and a 3 year warranty, which all add to the price.I like the fast ASIC (0.6s), adjustable backlight auto shut-off (40s or 3 minutes), the fast peak detect (250uS), the optional slow display filter (5 sample average), the auto red backlight used for warnings and visual continuity test and the very low burden voltage (1mV/mA and 100uV/uA).I don't like the fact that the bar graph is missing and that there is no AC+DC measurement for current (As far as I can tell).There isn't much difference in voltage and current measurement accuracy on AC signals, except that the bandwidth is higher for the Hioki for AC current (20kHz)

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 12:38:47 am
content: Yeah, hard to pick between them depending on what you want/need. If price is the major concern then we know which one wins!

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 12:49:24 am
content: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hioki-DT4282-High-Precision-Digital-Multimeter-/331514228084?var=&hash=item4d2fc9ad74376USD with free shipping in the UK.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 12:59:53 am
content: Still much more expensive, but that seems to be one of the lowest prices I have seen. TME has the BM869s for 145 GBP plus shipping.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:25:58 am
content: Wait, the Hioki has no bar graph? At this price? WTF?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:39:38 am
content: The Gossen MetraHit 28S, 29S, 30M, don't have a bar graph either. That's also true of their modern high-end meters, like the M249A Energy and M248A Ultra.High resolution and accuracy meters aren't meant for fast changing signal measurements.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:46:56 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 01:39:38 amWhy not?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:47:44 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 01:39:38 amAgree bar graph is not a major deciding factor, but its nice to have and definitely at certain cases its handy.Like Fluke 28X series, it's bar graph updates 30 times/sec and its much more intuitive when observing a relatively fast changing input rather than reading the jumping numbers.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:51:43 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 01:39:38 amWell, the Fluke 87 and the Brymen BM869s have a bar graph. The Brymen has 500.000 counts ... I don't see how high resolution or accuracy would somehow prevent you from adding a bar graph. A bar graph is quite an important feature for a handheld multimeter. I can see how a $40 meter may be missing one, but not a $400 meter.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 02:12:33 am
content: I can only guess that their ADCs were mostly designed for high accuracy combined with high resolution, which requires a slow update rate.A fast analogue display can be useful in special cases, but probably judged not very important on such instruments.It could also be a case of available screen real estate for some meters and necessary compromise.Hioki does have a bar graph on their cheaper meters.The 500,000 count on the Brymen is a high-res mode, not paired with better accuracy.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:26:50 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 25, 2015, 12:59:53 amAfter VAT (25%?) and postage to the UK (10GBP?), the difference in price is only 40 quid. Well worth considering for extra safety, internal data storage and 3 year warranty.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:57:32 am
content: Well I had my heart set on getting the BM869s, but just spotted the DT4282 Delivered in the UK for around £220...Decisions!!

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 10:00:59 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 09:26:50 am20% is the vat, I was looking at this from TME, but I found the Hioki from Tester.co.uk which I have used before and easy to send back if it gets a fault.For me there is about £30 between the two models.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 10:11:27 am
content: That's a no brainer, I know which one I would get.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 01:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: TheBay on August 25, 2015, 10:00:59 amTake 30 pounds in 3, 5 or even 10years? Your family will probably inherit this meter from you, 30 pounds in this amount of time is just nothing!Just cut out this weekend beer and you can get the meter! There is no comparison in feeling from a Hioki to a Brymen, its another class (event if the specs of the brymen macth or overcome the Hioki, I'd still go Hioki).

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 02:01:43 pm
content: Quote from: rvalente on August 25, 2015, 01:40:46 pmI don't drinkMoney isn't the issue, just wasn't sure which one is better, that meter is £220 with a Hioki Voltstick and also a set of 3 CK Pliers! Bargain.I wish it had a bar graph though. Though just logged in to their site and its £215 - VAT, it's £258 inc Vat meh...Check out the range on tester.co.uk, over £199 you get the CK pliers set.Not sure what the difference is with the DT4281 though?

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 02:26:13 pm
content: Basically the DT4281 has no 10A current range, which is a must have, for the 4181 they say:• Measures large currents with optional clamp probe (only for DT4281, which has no 10 A terminal for accident prevention)Get the DT4282

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 04:57:00 pm
content: FWIW, I've an older Brymen (BM857), and really like it (quality is a lot better than you'd imagine, and compares well to more known brands).Given the small price difference however, I'd opt for the Hioki* (support and longer warranty alone would be worth the extra funds).

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:19:25 pm
content: Yeah, it's so weird how the price varies so much in different countries based on VAT. If you leave in the US, the Brymen is less than half the price. But in the UK, Hioki is only 30 pounds more.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:40:05 pm
content: Quote from: rvalente on August 25, 2015, 02:26:13 pmSeeing as I got the price wrong (I thought it was with VAT before I logged in)I am looking at the Bryman again or a Fluke.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:40:52 pm
content: I am not sure what the extra safety is, except for maybe the input shutters. The BM869S has a higher rating, CATIV/1000, and is actually UL tested. 40GBP difference gets you the PC connection option for the Brymen and the magnetic hanger, if you want to compare equal money.Like I said, it is up to personal preference and what features are important to you and for what price.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 25, 2015, 06:40:52 pmWell I can't argue with you about the CAT IV 1000V on Brymen and I believe its UL listed and etc... but neither Fluke, Agilent, Gossen, Hioki etc has this class of instrument CAT IV 1000V, I prefer the average CAT III 100V or CAT IV 600V which is know standard.Your footer says you're a Brymen dist in South America them I understand your sales point of view.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:21:56 pm
content: Please, why does everyone think that my opinion of Brymen is dependent on me being a distributor? It is insulting. I became a distributor after, AFTER, buying three Brymen multimeters and forming my opinion of them.I make nothing telling people to buy a Brymen from TME, nor from anywhere else. If something is a better buy than a Brymen, then buy it. I only try to provide facts and correct misconceptions when they arise.So a company has a higher rating for safety on a product, proven and third party tested, and you prefer to go with the lower one?

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:31:20 pm
content: Quote from: rvalente on August 25, 2015, 07:15:33 pmAre you saying Brymen are lying about their specs?

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:33:54 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 25, 2015, 07:21:56 pmSorry but my comment does not intends to offend you, it is just natural to think that a Brymen dist will try to sell his fishI believe Brymen is a good meter, I would own if need but recently got myself a 87V (second hand) why? Well, just inspires my more confidence...Anyways, for our friend in doubt, I'd still go the Hioki (or just do like me and get a 87V second hand) but I should confess, this Hioki is sexy!

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:35:36 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on August 25, 2015, 07:31:20 pmNo, not at all. If it is UL listed them I or believe or I must prove it wrong, since I have no intention or desire to do so, why bother?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:06:37 pm
content: While it doesn't hurt to test a multimeter to CAT IV 1000V standards, it is not an industry requirement.Perhaps it was deemed to be too dangerous an environment for a handheld instrument.Mainstream meters are tested to a maximum of CAT III 1000V/CAT IV 600V. That doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't achieve the higher rating.The input jack blanking system is far more useful, eliminating a common cause of accidents, where the user tries to measure voltage with the test leads in the current jacks.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:50:39 pm
content: While it doesn't hurt totestspecify a multimeter toCAT IV 1000V standardshigh accuracy, it is not an industry requirement.Perhaps it was deemed to betoo dangerous an environmentnot necessary for a handheld instrument.Mainstream meters aretested to a maximum of CAT III 1000V/CAT IV 600Vspecified to an accuracy of usually 0.5%. That doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't achieve the higherratingaccuracy.Sorry, I couldn't help myself. If something is better rated, it is better. Anyone can discount the importance to them if they want, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real benefit to someone else or a better capability. They are objective ratings and specifications that an individual can assess for their own needs.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:17:12 pm
content: The meter is not 'better'. All it means is that the meter is deemed safe to use in an environment which is not an industry standard (CAT IV 1000V). The other meters are just as safe (no physical threat to the user) in their planned environment (CAT IV 600V).Your analogy to accuracy doesn't make sense to me.To the average user, a port blanking system is far more useful than a CAT IV 1000V rating. If you can't agree with that, that's the end of the conversation.

author: Fat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 25, 2015, 07:21:56 pmYes, Lightages spent a great deal of time on email with me to provide me options EVEN THOUGH HE COUDN'T SELL ME A METER. He has a high opinion of Brymen, so do I. It's finally the replacement for the Fluke that was stolen from me some years ago. Is it a Fluke, no! Is it a great meter, yes. Lightages provided me a lot of information, and his time, that helped me make the decision even though he wasn't making a penny on it.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 10:46:44 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 09:17:12 pmMy analogy was to show that you are discounting a real and objective safety rating as not being useful to you, just as to some people a higher accuracy specification is not necessarily useful to them, especially if a price is involved. You were implying that the CATIV/600V CATIII/1000V rated meter could meet a CATIV/1000V rating and therefore the CATIV/1000V rating was to be disregarded as superfluous. This would be a dangerous assumption that your meter could meet a higher safety rating, just because it wasn't proven to not, and the same can be said about assuming your voltage reading is more accurate than the specification allows. It might, but do you count on it?How is CATIV/1000V not a standard? It is a made up spec that isn't real? From the Amprobe HD160 specs:QuoteHow about this:http://www.transcat.com/media/pdf/Multimeters.pdfHow is this not an industry standard? Fluke doesn't have anything with this rating so it does not exist? Your favorite meter doesn't have it, so it isn't a real specification or standard?I also believe that the shutter mechanism on the inputs is a great idea and a huge improvement in safety over what Fluke, Amprobe, Extech, Agilent, and many others do not do to protect the user. But if you want to use a meter in a situation where a CATIV/1000V rating is needed, then the shutters don't add that capability. When did I say differently? I hate straw man arguments.Again it is situational, preference, what you want or need for certain functions and features over others and at what price you want to pay. It could be argued that the shutters on the Hioki could save more than the extra cost of the meter in preventing blown fuses and the cost to replace them. That sounds like a good justification for the extra cost of the Hioki right there. How many fuses have I blown in a multimeter in 35 years? One. If a person is constantly blowing fuses, then the shutters could save money.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:28:04 pm
content: The port blanking on the Hioki is a nifty feature to keep dust and other crap out as well, I like it. I also must admit, Brymen is a pretty good value although it's missing some essentials that I think are important like latched continuity, auto hold, and a better battery life.I also don't like the way it looks. The silkscreen color choice is pretty fugly, yellow, red and cyan? eewwk. It looks like they started with a smaller DMM and inflated the case, but kept the selector switch small, just doesn't look right.It's big and not well thought out from the design perspective imho. BM869s is probably one of the ugliest modern DMMs I've seen. I know it's just a tool and a physical look doesn't matter much, but a well designed tool can be an inspiration. I am not picking on Brymen either I think Brymen BM257s looks alright.It does pack some nifty features though and that might be more important to some. Hioki's lack of bargraph is unfortunate, that kind of disqualifies it for me personally.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:33:26 pm
content: The Hioki only has 100 hrs of battery life too.......

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:34:52 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 25, 2015, 11:33:26 pmwasn't aware, thanks.. pretty poor imo.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:49:45 pm
content: I'm well aware of the IEC low voltage safety standards. Talk of a straw manThere is a difference between a safety standard and an industry standard.If the industry had wanted a CAT IV 1000V multimeter, don't you think that the big players, like Fluke, Agilent, Gossen, Hioki, Chauvin Arnoux and others would have tested their meters to that safety level a long time ago? There is just no requirement to do so.Brymen could test their meter to 10,000V, it wouldn't make it any safer than all other UL listed meters, rated for CAT III 1000V CAT IV 600V, in that environment. In all cases, the internal damage is contained, without injury to the user. All we could argue is the size of the bang inside.And please, stop distorting my posts, this is getting insulting. I never suggested that a CAT IV 600V meter could be used in a CAT IV 1000V environment.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:15:22 am
content: I don't know why we keep butting heads over things. I know that we see things basically the same way and I respect you and your opinion. Please don't mistake disagreement with disrespect. I interpreted your post as implying something. I apologize if I read it wrongly and it was never my intention to put words in your mouth. On a multinational forum, semantics are important, and misunderstanding is bound to happen with a mix of cultures and subtleties of meanings for words depending on that."Industry norm" and "safety standard" are the wordings that would make it less ambiguous me. A standard is that by which all is judged, a norm is that which is usual and accepted as the current accepted state of affairs. They are not necessarily the same thing. Semantics can matter when we are trying to be precise.If I ever say anything that is not fact nor supported by evidence, then I expect everyone to jump on me and force me to explain. I hope you have no aversions to the same. It is not personal. No hard feelings here and no insult intended.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:58:28 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 11:49:45 pmAmprobe and Brymen at least see a need for it. Just because someone does not make things a certain way does not mean there is no request or demand for it. If Hioki sees a demand for shuttered jacks, why doesn't Fluke? The opposite is true too also. Just because someone builds something a certain way doesn't mean there is actual demand for that form. Sometimes manufacturers force things to be a certain way for reasons like profit or to make it easier for warranty.Quote from: Wytnucls on August 25, 2015, 11:49:45 pmSo you say that a meter rated at CATIV/1000V does matter when compared to CATIII/1000V when viewed only from the rating of a CATIII/1000V? Wellof course not! It matters when you need a meter that meets the spec, not for some lower spec. So Amprobe, under the same umbrella company as Fluke, are making a multimeter that there is no call nor use for?So there is no call for meters with these ratings, but at least two big companies make them for no reason? I am sorry, but you have lost me with that one. Again, why doesn't Fluke make meters with shutters on the input jacks? With the logic presented, then Hioki is doing something pointless too. If Fluke doesn't see the need, then it is pointless?Again..... Buy the meter that best meets the needs of the situation or use and don't buy the ones that don't. If you are working on something that needs CATIV/1000V ratings, then get a meter with that standard. If you want to buy a meter for someone who is always blowing current fuses, then get something that helps prevent that.The Hioki DT4282 has many things to recommend it over many other meters, including the BM869S. It also lacks some features of other multimeters. If you want those other features and/or a lower price then get the other meter more suited to your needs. It is that simple. Discounting the specs and/or features of a product because you don't care for those specs and/or features does not make them irrelevant for others and their needs.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 04:46:09 am
content: about the jack shutters, how does that work when you want to turn off the meter? say you're in amp mode and want to shut it off, do you have to unplug the lead from the amp jack to be able to turn the dial? if so, that could be quite annoying in certain situations.

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 05:53:53 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on August 26, 2015, 04:46:09 amIf it's how the others with shutters work, you have to unplug the leads from A/mA to turn the meter off. (I guess unless they have "Off" on both sides of the range)

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:08:19 am
content: Quote from: 5ky on August 26, 2015, 05:53:53 amI suspected as much. Wow, that sucks. A simple warning beeper is a much better way to do it IMHO.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:26:40 am
content: As I rarely use current measurement at DMMs, I have plain rubber plug to cover current jacks at my 287s.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:40:13 am
content: It's probably a latched shutter. As in once the lead is in it doesn't prevent the setting change, but it probably beeps at you. When you pull out the lead it closes the shutter.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 07:38:19 am
content: Talking of shuttered Jacks, I have an LG Electronics multimeter and that has shuttered jacks, it will turn to OFF, it beeps if the lead is in and you are on the wrong setting. But it won't let you plug a lead in on the other settings if it's already out.I think I might go with the BM867/BM869 after reading up on meters for too long now lol!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 07:57:50 am
content: Quote from: TheBay on August 26, 2015, 07:38:19 amYou haven't stated AFAIK, so I have to ask... Do you need/want to interface the meter with a computer for logging purposes?If so, the Brymen will be the better value (Brymen makes a fine meter, and the data interface kits are reasonably priced).I just happen to be interested in the Hioki because I don't have one (have Fluke, Agilent, and Brymen).

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 08:17:22 am
content: No not interested in logging really, it's for repair and project work.Nice to have on there, but would be more of a gadget that I may play with one day or may notQuote from: nanofrog on August 26, 2015, 07:57:50 am

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 09:58:04 am
content: I have a solution if you can not choose between them:Just buy both the Hioki DT4282 and the Brymen BM869s! Problem solved!

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 10:58:18 am
content: Quote from: TheBay on August 26, 2015, 08:17:22 amAre you sure you need the accuracy and precision of those meters for that? Have you considered the UT139C? It's quite a good quality meter and probably only half the size of the Brymen.Stay away from Uni-Turd at all costs.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 04:40:26 pm
content: Yes I do need the accuracy, no thanks to Uni-TQuote from: mos6502 on August 26, 2015, 10:58:18 am

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 11:24:06 am
content: I have just blown £221 (plus VAT) on a Hioki DT4282 to replace a very old Hung Chang 7030. My initial impressions are positive with the battery compartment and fuses accessible without exposing anything else. The probes supplied are OK. The instruction manual covers everything that I can think of and the Normal and Common Mode 50 Hz/ 60Hz rejection is specified.Not being Dave I am not brave enough to pull it apart. I don't have access to any calibration equipment so can't tell if it meets the specifications. It's a pity that Hioki haven't sent a meter for Dave for review.The UNI-T looks similar to a Tenma Multimeter that I have used that has rubbish 4 mm sockets which has caused intermittent connections, true after some use. The Tenma sockets appear to be split into two which I presume is how it detects when the probes are plugged in. That's a bad idea because it relies on the plug having many points of contact with the socket of which some are unavailable for conducting current. They also probably rely on the surrounding plastic for support.The Tenma Ohms range has an automatic zeroing function. I like to know what low resistance I am measuring and am prepared to make allowances for lead resistances, not have the multimeter make it's own decision.Another Tenma major drawback (I consider it a fail) is sensitivity to 50 Hz common mode noise when measuring high impedance battery powered circuits.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 01:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: PChi on August 27, 2015, 11:24:06 amPlease do a detailed review, this DMM looks so sexy and great! I believe its a brandy name compare with Fluke and Gossen, apples to apples.Please do a detailed teardown as well.

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 01:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: rvalente on August 27, 2015, 01:00:26 pmI am sorry I just want to turn in on, not take it apart because I don't want to risk disturbing the calibration. I don't have a calibration source or an more accurate meter so can't check the accuracy or reset it if I change it. I can say that the continuity test responds quickly as advertised in the Hioki video.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 02:45:05 pm
content: Ahhhhhhfeeling disappointed here...Well, there is no harm to do a detailed review without open the little Japanese guy...(or you could borrow to Dave for one or two days...)

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 03:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: rvalente on August 27, 2015, 02:45:05 pmDave is too far away. If there is anyone reasonably close to Staines Upon Thames (say 50 miles) with a calibrator or even with a reasonably accurate meter that I can use for comparison then I can check the accuracy claims. It's many years since I worked at a company that manufactured panel meters and had acccess to a Time Electronics Calibrator.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 05:05:49 pm
content: It is pointless and tiresome to verify accuracy claims on new quality meters. It would be more interesting to demonstrate the meter's unusual features, like the low burden voltage, auto hold automatic logging, port blanking system, diode testing, fast continuity and screen viewing quality.None of that requires sophisticated lab instruments.

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 06:20:39 pm
content: The burden voltage on the 10 A range was 230 mV with 6.268 A = 37 mohm (Thurlby Thandar PL330DP current limits at maximum with the channels connected in parallel.) The specification is 10 mohms plus fuse at 0.1 ohm or less. I think that the resistance will increase with time and also at the maximum current of 10 A when the fuses heats up. I am reluctant to run the Thurlby Thandar into a short circuit at maximum current for long to test.The Auto hold works as expected. It's necessary to hold the probes on for what seems like 1s for the meter to decide that the voltage is stable and then beeps when it has acquired a reading. So handy when taking measurements say balanced on top of a ladder but not of much use in the lab.The Port Blanking system operates as expected. If a lead is left plugged into the current range input the lead needs to be unplugged to turn the meter off which is slightly annoying but is needed for protection. I have blown up Fluke current shunts before now (It was a long time ago and the high current range wasn't fused).The diode test open circuit voltage was rather high at 4.35 V but inside the specification of 4.5 V DC or less. I guess that some CMOS parts could be damaged. It's possible to adjust the voltage threshold at which the buzzer sounds. Buzzers interfere with listening to the radio though.The Hioki video shows the fast continuity which I can confirm works well.The Hioki video also shows the screen viewing quality which I can confirm is OK but nothing special. The backlight is pretty good with even illumination (I have crouched under desks in boxes to judge mobile phone backlight performance in the past). Here in the UK testing readability in strong sunlight is difficult at the moment.I could test what effect rain has but it isn't meant to be waterproofI would still like to check the accuracy against another meter or even better calibrator. Have car, can travel.

author: CosPhi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 08:35:37 pm
content: Teardown and reviewhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hioki-dt4281-multimeter-teardown-and-first-impression/I'm still very happy with the my DT4281. Still very like the very stable reading in all kind of environment. But I also handle it with more care than a Fluke 170 or Agilent's U1272a. On the other side there is no contest in the stability and repitivity of the measurment. Even the U1272a also has a resolution of 0.001Ohm this high resolution is almost totaly useless. On the Hioki on the other hand, you always get the same result.About a few messages before"ïf the customer/industry want something, Fluke (or others) would build it"I think that's not really true. Customers often wan't a diffrent product, than you get from any company.For example, I think in theory, on the datasheet, the U1272a is the best meter by far. But in reality it's just a pain because it is so unstable and the digits are unreadable flickering(even with a very slow "rise" and "fall" time). But it has a lot of very good features, great backlight and housing.Gossen's top meters are just rated for max 600VWhy ... Thes days we have high DC voltages everywhere (DC bus on motorinveter, solarsystem) and more will come. The display is just two times per secondWhy ... But they (and Brymen) are the only brands who can faster datalog than once a second. All models can at least log 10 times per second, some even more.Fluke just has the 280 series with datalogging ... no model with LCDWhy ... The funny CNX or how they are named ... I think it's just a kind of a bad joke. I don't think they sell many because they are almost for free.Hioki cannot log by themself at all, just with a PCBut the software workes good and needs just 4 or 5MB on the harddisk. Agilent first software was more than 200MB for my U1272aI think there is still "free space" for a great datalogging meter.I also think CAT VI 1000V should be standart for an industrial meter.Meters who cannot measure at least 700V DC (Gossen) should not be legal in europe (because of 650V Peak+/- on the 3x230/400V AC grid voltage)Sorry because I came a bit of topic ... If there are questions about the Hioki .. I'm open, but I never used a Brymen

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:00:53 pm
content: Thanks CosPhi for making me aware of your review and the tear down pictures.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 03:44:48 am
content: Gossen sells plenty of multimeters rated CAT III 1000V CAT IV 600V, like the 60,000 count 'Extra'.The Uni-T UT71D can log at 10 samples per second with PC datalink.The Gossen 30M can log at 100 samples per second. The Gossen 29S at 2000 samples per second (DC Volt).The Gossen screen display rate can be increased to 5 samples per second (noFiL ON) for most measurements (Extra, E Tech).

author: CosPhi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 05:56:42 am
content: I checked the manual. All Gossen E- series meters can set to 5 times per second. Thank you very much for the info, because I was already thinking about to buy an X-TRA.It seems then the EXTRA does have almost everything how I would like it ... exept the price ...

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 06:18:43 am
content: Another reason the Hioki meter is expensive is that Gossen holds the patent for the input blanking system (ABS, Automatic Blocking Socket) and Hioki probably has to pay royalties to Gossen. Something Fluke and others are not willing to do.http://patents.justia.com/assignee/gossen-metrawatt-gmbh

author: CosPhi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 07:46:51 am
content: I don't know ... Yokogawa does have it too and has lower prices.And somemthing more about the Hioki. The display has almost no scratches even after one year of use. My U1272a had scratches already after one week.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:01:02 am
content: That's interesting, my LG Electronics multimeter also says it holds a patent from the socket blocking.Quote from: Wytnucls on August 28, 2015, 06:18:43 am

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:08:16 am
content: An electrician and a power electronics engineer never use the current measuring ranges in high energy circuits.One always uses current clamps.I doubt about the need of such ABS, Automatic Blocking Socket.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:22:20 am
content: I totally agree, an Electrician would have a clamp meter, however someone who is doing purely electronics may not have one,For example I work with stuff that is not forgiving and almost instant death, such as Valve Linear RF Amplifiers, they can pack a hell of a punch,A clamp meter wouldn't be practical and having the meter on the wrong setting could be very dangerous.Quote from: oldway on August 28, 2015, 08:08:16 am

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:31:22 am
content: Quote from: CosPhi on August 28, 2015, 07:46:51 amLast time I checked, the equivalent Yokogawa/Kyoritsu TY720/KEW1062 costs 500$.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:37:43 am
content: Quote from: TheBay on August 28, 2015, 08:01:02 amWhich one would that be?

author: meeder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:57:34 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 25, 2015, 06:40:52 pmThe magentic hanger is a joke though... It is cheap but if you get a magnetic hanger for a Fluke for example it is much better. The magnetic hanger Brymen sells you is barely able to hold the heavy 869s.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 09:03:43 am
content: LG DM-333http://www.eurekaspot.com/sp.cfm/DMMDVM/LGP/DM-333.htmlQuote from: Wytnucls on August 28, 2015, 08:37:43 am

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 09:07:16 am
content: Quote from: oldway on August 28, 2015, 08:08:16 amWould they use the current ranges in low energy circuits? If yes, the classic mistake is to leave the probes in the current range while trying to measure a high energy voltage later, possibly with dire consequences, hence the blocking system.If they don't use the current ranges at all, there are safer and cheaper meters built without current ranges, alleviating the need for misuse protection.Clamps aren't very accurate in DC mode, especially in the mA/uA range.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 09:17:21 am
content: Quote from: TheBay on August 28, 2015, 09:03:43 amI don't think LG makes their own meters. it says patent pending. Did they ever get it?

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 09:29:29 am
content: Yes they used to make their own, I worked for LG Electronics as a head engineer in the South Wales plant, we were issued with those meters.No idea if they got it, I swear there are patent numbers on the back of it, I threw it out the other day as I left it in the boot of a damp car which ruined it!Quote from: Wytnucls on August 28, 2015, 09:17:21 am

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 09:38:00 am
content: Here is a Goldstar version:I don't see the 10A jack being blocked. Perhaps the blanking system was slightly different.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 11:23:53 am
content: It's exactly the same, the plate is a little lower in the hole, you can't physically put a probe in it.Quote from: Wytnucls on August 28, 2015, 09:38:00 am

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 04:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 28, 2015, 09:07:16 amIn low energy circuits, there is nothing very dangerous to simply burn a fuse...the blocking system does not protect against misuse...you can let your probes on current inputs, your range selector in DC or AC current and try to measure voltage.For measuring low current with a clamp meter, you use 10 turns and you read 10x the current.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 04:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 28, 2015, 06:18:43 amMy guess is that the first company to do this probably could write a pretty strong patent. The others might be able to work around it or they might have paid to use it. With out reading the details of the 1994 patent I'm not sure if it's strong or not. It also is certainly expired by now. I'm not sure how long patents last in Europe (or Germany). In the US we recently changed from 17 years from date of issue to 20 from date of filing. If Europe is like that then we would figure that 1994 issued patent was filed in 1990 or 1991 which means it's been expired for at least a few years. Of course meter development cycles aren't quick. Anyway, the subsequent patents would be smaller add on things and are likely only going to protect the specific implementation.I recall the way LG did their block (I've handled the meter shown above). It used a small tab that blocked the shroud of the plug but not the actual conductive part. I also recall Sears using these covers on some cheaper meters (full covers, not the blocking tab). Either the ODM for Sears figured out how to work around the IP or Gossen was willing to license it for a reasonable fee. Either way, I don't think the shroud would be a big deal to work around.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:23:43 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on August 28, 2015, 04:05:52 pmYou didn't read my post properly. Of course low energy circuits are not the problem. Manufacturers are trying to protect the user with aural signals, visual clues or blocking systems, against misuse withhigh energyconnections.10 turns, really? Try to do that with the existing circuit in situ. If you have to break the circuit to add extra length to the wiring, you may as well connect your ammeter or shunt for an accurate reading.

author: Fat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 12:08:45 am
content: Quote from: McCarthy on August 28, 2015, 10:27:20 pmThat is in fact a nice looking meter.

author: buyman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 07:51:49 pm
content: Are you guys still happy with your DT4282? Unfortunately it's more expensive now (£329,99, so ~430€ with shipping) and so I'm not sure which DMM I should buy myself as a birthday present.Basically a decision between expensive (DT4282, U1272A - both ~400€) to less expensive (BM869 at 240€) to "cheap" (UT71D at 140€).

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 10:47:48 pm
content: The Brymen has 500.000 counts, while the Hioki has only 60.000 counts, still the Hioki is much more expensive. How come?

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2016, 12:00:06 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on August 01, 2016, 10:47:48 pmBecause counts isn't the only thing that goes into coming up with the price.

author: buyman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2016, 01:31:13 pm
content: Quote from: CustomEngineerer on August 02, 2016, 12:00:06 amYes, that's the point. There's also accuracy (which is similar on the above mentioned multimeters), build quality, and also the fact of a "known" brand ...

author: Johnny Electron
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 11:23:17 pm
content: It depends on what you plan on using the meter for. The Brymen is probably more durable if your meter takes a hit how and then. They are both excellent meters and you would be happy with either one. Personally I would get the Hioki because it's truly a slice of multimeter heaven. Lightning fast stable readings and a flawless build quality. (to me anyways..)

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 11:37:32 pm
content: National Museum of The Great Multimeter Collection

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2016, 11:53:33 pm
content: I had looked at the 4282. Was a little concerned with the nS mode's accuracy. Spec'ed at > 20nS. Like the differential temperature measurement on the UT181A and the BM869s. 4282 does not have it. Was surprised they did not have a nice fast high res bar graph like the 869s and 181a but no big deal.I like the little HIOKI. Knew of the brand before I bought it. Pretty much what I was expecting. Very robust top notch meter.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 12:40:13 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 28, 2015, 09:07:16 amI have a Metrix MX57 Ex, a meter designed for use in explosive atmospheres. It has no Amps range, and the Amps jack is blanked off. It does have a µA/mA range. The reasoning seems to be that the Amps range has a low impedance, so touching the probes to any circuit could cause them to spark.Another safety feature, that is related to jack shutters, is the use of split-pin jacks for probe detection. If a lead is plugged into the jack, it completes the circuit between the split pin, which is checked depending on the current mode. If the wrong jack is used (either in Amps when in mode ¬Current, or not in Amps when Current), the meter beeps constantly and shows a "PROBE" error. My APPA meter has that.

author: zaoka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 01:43:29 am
content: Quote from: Johnny Electron on October 01, 2016, 11:23:17 pmYou could do a video review of 4282

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 03:18:42 am
content: For me the price difference is prohibitive for the Hioki. Seems the best deal in the USA that I could find in a few minutes of looking is about $396USD with Amazon being at $495USD. The BM869S, OTH, can be had for a bit over $224USD from TME. So, the Hioki is 2X give or take over the Brymen.Brian

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2017, 07:41:40 pm
content: the Brymen is not a normal 500,000 count, IT is a real 50,000 count dmm WITH an 500,000 count in DCV, Mv, and hz measurements, not in all the ranges ...