Taking that idea from Prototype to Product - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: kizzap
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 09:21:36 am
content: Well, as the title suggests, I have an idea for for something that I am wanting to take from the prototype stage to the final product output, yet I unfortunately have no idea what the next step is that I should/could take.As it currently stands, I have the product idea, and prototypes of said product working, and am working on designing moulds (extremely simple things, something that could be done on a backyard milling machine if it came to it), panellised the PCB design for manufacture (to hopefully use an Aussie supplier if possible), and have gone and done some of the maths to see if this idea would actually be profitable (which thankfully, with no unexpected costs it will be).The next part however is where I start to run into issues. I am quite capable of designing the product, however I have no idea/experience in advertising it, or taking things further then what I have right now. I would love to use something like Kickstarter, but for some reason they only allow US or UK people to actually list products on the website. I know there are also sites like indiegogo (who seem to have a real bad rep for being dodgy as crap, or Pozible(the Australian version of Kickstarter?), and there are ways to get around the whole nationality issue of Kickstarter, but they seem to be based on you being able to get a business name, tax information and the likes for either the UK or the US, which just seems overly convoluted.Well I just had a better read of the Pozible site, and it looks like it might not be purely Australian based. So I might have to do some more research into this.The next major obstacle that I can see is organising Postage and Handling. I fully expect the majority of my customers to be international (specifically UK and US, thus the dream of using Kickstarter, but alas.) Does anyone know any cheap places that deal with bulk shipping orders?Any other pointers or good guides that you can link would be awesome too.Thanks for reading.Kizzap

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 10:10:15 am
content: Is it a product that could be given to a distributor, for example, sparkfun, adafruit or seeedstudio? That way they deal with the customer, marketing and delivery logistics and you just have to deal with them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 05:20:42 pm
content: Find a partner who knows the market the product is aimed at and is willing to take care of the marketing (including financing the advertisments). I'm currently working on two projects where I do the technical part and others take care of the commercial part.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 11:23:43 pm
content: Quote from: kizzap on June 26, 2013, 09:21:36 amCareful with this stuff. Unless you plan on actually molding parts yourself, contract manufacturers are often times very picky about the tools/forms/molds/screens that go in their machines. If you don't make the molds/tools/forms/screens exactly to their specs, then they won't be able to use them. Same goes for things as simple as solder paste stencils. Just because you can get a cheap stencil from china doesn't mean your board house will be able to use it for volume production. If you are talking injection molding dies, the design even for simple stuff isn't really trivial once you start doing things like putting multiple pieces on one die for volume manufacturing.You really should check with whoever you are going to get to make your parts and see what they require as far as specs for things like that. Don't ever assume anything.Taking a product from idea, to design, to production is super rewarding and as I'm sure you are finding out its also a lot of work and details. I don't have much experience with international shipping, but if you are doing small runs of a relatively inexpensive widget the thing that comes to mind is Dave's uCurrent. If I understood it right it was the international shipping issues that made him go with adafruit as a distributor instead of selling direct. Good luck!(what is it you are making? hints?)

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2013, 11:27:42 pm
content: I'm betting an under water fish hunter with flashing lights.

author: jmole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 12:19:13 am
content: Quote from: kizzap on June 26, 2013, 09:21:36 ambig mistake there. you've gotta factor in unexpected costs as a line item. better to overestimate than underestimate, because whatever you overestimated will just end up as profit. don't make the mistake of pricing your product too cheaply.

author: kizzap
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 01:22:05 am
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on June 26, 2013, 10:10:15 amI guess that is an option, however the product is more aimed at a different crowd (in particular the miniature war-gaming scene). I guess Icouldtry some of those stores, but it would mean I would have to go about getting some proper blister type packaging going on (which I would like to avoid ideally).At the moment I am struggling to even find a nice sized cardboard box that I would be able to use in bulk to ship. The closest I can find is something on eBay, and even then I'm not 100% sold on the idea. Add to that the minimum $10 per parcel international shipping that I will get charged, which will be damned expensive, and things start to add up.Quote from: nctnico on June 26, 2013, 05:20:42 pmIssue there is I can be a fairly reclusive person at times, and the fact that I am very slow to trust people. Makes it hard to try find someone to do that sort of stuff for me.Quote from: Smokey on June 26, 2013, 11:23:43 pmAll the manufacturing will be done by myself. Pretty much for the reasons you said. That way, I get to be in full control of everything. The mould I am planning on using is super simple, to the point that it would be extremely easy to do on a home CNC machine (however I don't have one, nor know someone who does, so this will be outsourced to someone local). I probably will end up getting a stencil as well, but I will kinda need it for the IC.I am having fun with the whole taking on the making a product thing, but yeah, it is a lot of details and a lot of work.Quote from: johnnyfp on June 26, 2013, 11:27:42 pmFlashy lights is correct, underwater is wrong, fish finder is close, but not in the normal context.Quote from: jmole on June 27, 2013, 12:19:13 amparts cost about $4 per product, I'd want to be selling for quite a bit more then that...I guess I have kinda let the cat out of the bag here, so I guess I can show you the idea. (for all I know you guys might be able to point out some errors in my planning.)Basically it is just going to be a set of flashy Lights for the Warhammer 40k universe, for those sorts of people who would like it. I know the interest is out there, after watching one kickstarter absolutely blitz it's goal for something extremely simple.The attached image is a render of what I am hoping/expecting to make on bulk, it is a small board, with 10 LEDs, controlled by a QFN20 atmel device (the only reason I want a stencil, the top side I will get away with glue and solder paste to hold the components on.) for the mould plan, I simply plan to have the PCB wedged between two machined aluminium moulds (one for shaping, one for locking the board into place) then simply pouring a clear casting resin into the open top of the mould, which would give me the required height for the final product and be easy to self manufacture. Oh, there will also be a pin on all four corners to aid in mounting, etc.I do also have ideas for other products, but haven't gotten around to board layouts and pricing yet.Feel free to call me an idiot if you want, but I can see that these would end up selling what I plan to make. (only pricing for 170 at the moment, with the ability to go on further if wanted)Any other comments feel free to say something.

author: johnnyfp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 01:29:38 am
content: Yeah, I win! Flashy lights. Everything these days has to have a flashy light. It's the Magpie in us all.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 03:38:37 am
content: Kizzap,Having an idea and taking to market - including conception, design, manufacture, advertising, production, sales, etc, is what I did to start my company 13 years ago, and what I've spent the following 13 years doing. I think I've gotten pretty good at it, but we're all always learningHaving said that, people who are not sales types tend to be afraid of sales, or they don't know how to sell something. Luckily, there are lots of options out there. You can bootstrap your sales effort - aka, do it yourself. Or, there are likely dozens of partners who will happily help your sales effort for a percentage. By partners, I mean stores (online or physical), distributors, etc. There are also web forums that cater to pretty much every interest out there, and there are exhibitions and trade shows for every subject imaginable.Your challenge is that you are new to the industry (I presume), and you don't know which of these methods are effective and which are not. Assuming you don't want to toss a metric buttload of cash into this and see what works, I would advise using the methods that are low cost, and focusing on those that work, and replacing those that do not with other attempts (some of which will work).Luckily you have the intarwebz and Google is your friend. You should be able to identify the places where your customers are (be it hobby shops, forums, exhibitions, local clubs, etc), and then you can investigate selling through those channels.One thing to keep in mind is that new businesses generally lack money, connections/trade-partners (like who the best supplier for widget X is), and such. You have to make up for your lack of experience and money with an extra helping of effort. As such, I would probably avoid trying to get someone else to handle fulfillment until you reach a level where you need that help. Otherwise, you're just giving up $$ (which all businesses need) in exchange for time, which presumably you have in infinite supply (as all business owners do)As for packaging, don't assume you would need to spend $$ on blister packaging... it all depends how your customers buy. If it's in store and they buy off a rack, then blisters are good. If they order your items by word of mouth references, boxes will work fine. There are also many companies that sell off-the-shelf (stock design) clamshell packages in countless shapes and sizes. Many discount online print outfits will print full color professional looking cards for $0.10 each or so... and now you have a very professional package for zero NRE/tooling costs.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 10:31:07 am
content: Well done for trying. I also have directly sold my products to customers for over 20 years, my comments are.Do it all yourself, don't have to buy 1000 of an item made especially for you.Use personal selling, at shows, exhibitions and similar. I would guess you item is for children () so go to the country fairs to sell. Forget about selling through others, they will want to pay you 1/3 of the selling price.Work out the cost of the item, parts and time to assemble, multiply by 3 to get an idea of selling price.Sell locally to start.When selling internationally keep the weight under 2kg, this seems to be an internationally agreed limit over which export documentation is needed. Under the 2kg most parcels will get in without any import duties.Find a good, local, PCB supplier because the whole product is built on it, and it needs to be good. The PCB is the single most expensive item in a small product, and that is just double sided PTH.Use pin in hole components. Yes, I know that is old hat but they are so much easier to position and solder. You cannot hand solder a device with pin spacings less than 0.050". Always use tin lead solder, the failure rate for the tin only stuff is unacceptable.Accept that it will cost you so much money to develop and sell the product, and if it all goes then stop! Then try something else.Record how long it takes to make a quantity of the item, say 20-50, doing all of one job before going on to the next. Things like encapsulating might take rather longer than anticipated and might need multiple molds.Just my thoughts. Bob

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 07:21:26 pm
content: Quote from: kizzap on June 27, 2013, 01:22:05 amCool! Did you time yourself making a production type prototype to estimate out how long it will take to make a batch? I worked on a product that needed to bake in an oven for a while to cure some epoxy. That ended up being the bottleneck of the whole production cycle. With a limited amount of molds and oven space you can only do so many at a time and you have no choice but wait till the previous batch is done before you can do the next one. That sucked,My brother used to paint those little warhammer guys back in the day. There used to be a local big dungeon shop (warhammer figures, magic cards, DnD stuff, dice) where all the people into that would hang out and buy new stuff before it closed down. Are those still around? I wonder if you could go direct to those guys and sell out of the shops.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 01:20:19 am
content: Quote from: woodchips on June 27, 2013, 10:31:07 amAssuming you can sell it yourself. Say you can sell 100 units yourself and make $20 each and someone else can sell 500 and you make $10 each. Now tell me in which scenario you made more money and have time to work on new products. Working together while sharing the load and profit is the way forward.QuoteOfcourse you can hand solder fine pitch but you have to ask yourself if its worth the trouble. First you need to work out what your hourly rate needs to be for your business to be viable. Then for each task you need to work out whether its better to pay someone to do the job or do it yourself. I always have another company do the PCB assembly and metal work. I'm too expensive to solder PCBs together. Same goes for metal work. Laser cutting aluminium has become really cheap. If you need 100 face plates which some holes in them they only cost a few dollars each.QuoteThat is a myth unless you are really bad at soldering (and another reason to let professionals do the soldering). Besides many countries won't allow tin/lead soldered products.

author: kizzap
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 03:13:37 am
content: Quote from: johnnyfp on June 27, 2013, 01:29:38 amIt's the shiney!!!Quote from: Corporate666 on June 27, 2013, 03:38:37 amI pretty much know the areas that I will really need to be going out and advertising, which will predominately be online forums, due to the fact that the hobby is being set back in Australia by a company who is doing itself no favours atm. That leaves my major client base I suspect to be in both the UK and the US, and possibly some other parts of Europe. Which sucks, because I will be facing the "Down Unda" tax in regards to postage quite severely.Looking at Clamshell packaging: While it would be nice, I don't really expect to make/sell enough of these products to warrant going in that route yet. I took an extremely quick look via google and the first ballpark price I came across for something that I would use would be $0.40 per clamshell (this is without tooling costs, using their stock shape, and then I have to go look for the card backing to suit. If the business takes off, sure, I'll invest in that. As it stands, I plan on placing the boards into one of those shielded metal bags, then having that in between some card in a bubble padded envelope folded over so there is a double layer of bubbles and paper. The product should be sturdy in that, and it will only cost me a quarter of the price of the blister pack option.Quote from: woodchips on June 27, 2013, 10:31:07 amThe plan is to do it all myself. I am even currently hacking together a Re-flow oven out of an old toaster oven which I am cleaning up. I can already see where my bottleneck will be when it comes time to make the product, and that will be in the casting process, due to me trying to keep it cheap and will only have one mould (which will do a panel at a time). On the plus side though, If I am smart about it, I can have one panel done with the resin poured, and then start work on populating the next board, so that I don't have excessive downtime for the resin to cure.Weight won't be an issue at all, unless someone decides that they want to buy the entire lot of my stock and have it sent in one shipment (which would be ok by me)I have found a Local PCB supplier, and am going to spend a little time researching more for a backup, for that "oh crap" moment.Ironically, I am going pretty much 100% against your next bit of advice. Only SMD, with a QFN20 package device (with the requisite 0.5 mm pin pitch), and using lead free solder for ROHS purposes. Less problems = more sales. This is the main reason I am going to re-flow the boards, to ensure that it will all work out fine.I will be spending time practising the placement and re-flowing before I start trying to sell these things, and will hopefully be able to sell a fair amount off (possibly at a cheaper rate) to people who would want one. We'll see I guess.With any Luck I will be able to get away with just needing a single mould.Oh, and I don't really see the mini-wargaming group as "children" at all anymore, especially considering the rules, and the prices.Quote from: Smokey on June 27, 2013, 07:21:26 pmI fully know that the bottleneck I will have is the Resin cure time, which, going on the directions is quoted as 12 hours...so I should be able to use the mold every 24 hours, which will give me 85 of the product.As to the prevalence of the independent/chain shops selling the 40k, yeah they are still around. Games Workshop (the big gaming retailer, who my product is designed for) are however throwing around their weight at the moment, and bringing lawsuits to people using/abusing their copyright. I don't see how my product would be in breach however, and I should avoid all issues by stating outright that I am not affiliated with them, and that the trademarks all belong to them. Alternately, I could just completely avoid saying anything to do with Games Workshop, and give myself a stronger leg to stand on.As a last thought, should I be factoring a possible "failure rate" of any of the boards per panel? or is that not as necessary with modern manufacturing? I'd rather be doing my best to err on the side of caution here, rather then being faced with the "oh crap oh crap oh crap" moment.And thanks heaps for all the advice guys, it really does help calm down my worries, and give ideas that I otherwise wouldn't have thought of.-kizzap

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 04:28:25 am
content: Quote from: kizzap on June 28, 2013, 03:13:37 amYa, you get defective PCBs occasionally, so don't skimp on electrical PCB testing from the board house. The PCB houses usually make more than you ordered in case they have any fail test so they can still ship the full amount. If there is a bad one in a panel they put a big X thought it. Especially get the electrical testing done at the board house if you aren't going to do any other testing until the things are fully assembled. You don't want to wait 12 hours to find out you had a short under the epoxy. Since you are getting a significant amount of boards, you can find PCB houses that will have deals for first time customers where they waive the NRE and testing charges, or might just waive it anyway if you give them a call and ask.(You probably already know this, but you can seriously shorten epoxy cure time in some cases by heating it up)All surface mount is the way to go. Stuffing them by hand is a little tedious though. You might be surprised at the professional assembly prices you can get for quantities of over 100 boards, especially if you kept all the components on one side. The bigger the run the cheaper the PCB, components, and the assembly becomes. It's the small batch prototypes that kill you and make you think hand stuffing boards is a good idea

author: kizzap
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 08:43:17 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on June 28, 2013, 04:28:25 amI can effectively remove the issue of finding out about any shorts under the epoxy in one swift move: test the boards before embeddingI do know about the heating resin to aid curing time, and using negative pressure (aka like a vacuum) will remove bubbles from the resin, or use high pressure to cause the bubbles to shrink...options options options, and we will see how it turns out.And I am loving the pricing breaks that occur for bulk. Half price ICs? Yes Thank You.Quote from: nctnico on June 28, 2013, 01:20:19 am