Recreating mod chip designed for the Playstation 1. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2018, 09:24:37 pm
content: So before I begin I apologise if I've posted this in the wrong section and for the size of the attached image. This just seemed the best place to ask from my understanding.I'm looking to recreate a modchip as close as possible to one I bought, and accidentally threw out , from Obscure Gamers a year ago. Sadly that site shut down and the seller pointed people to ASSEMblergames, a site of which the mods and admin have seemingly abandoned making it impossible to sign up to as it requires them to authorise your account after email verification. This has made communication incredibly difficult to purchase a new one and rather than trying to find another seller I've decided to try and recreate the modchip myself.All I know from this image (and from memory) is the fully assembled modchip is a 15mmx15mm (or 20mmx20mm) PCB with 8 solder points(if the image isn't clear enough the 4 on the left are labelled 1 to 4 from bottom to top and 5 to 8 top to bottom on the right) that connect to each pin on the chip used and a SMD component unknown to me. One of the big issues with recreating this chip is trying to figure out what chip is being used(or usable equivalent that is able to be programmed with the right Hex File required for my SCPH-5552 PAL PlayStation), trying to figure out what that other SMD component is and what it's purpose is, and how to program the chip. Having never created a PCB before now, advice on how to create one would be nice not only for this but for also any future projects.My reasoning for wanting to recreate the modchip this way instead of finding one from another seller is solely down to how it's presented. It's nice and elegant and a much better solution than just taking a chip, soldering wire to each leg, then soldering the other ends to the correct points on the PS1's motherboard. Any help is appreciated and hopefully I've made enough sense and if this was posted to the wrong place...sorry.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 12:26:25 am
content: There's 99.9% chance that "the chip" on there is a microcontroller which needs to be flashed with a program you don't have.If the reason you want it is because it is on a breakout board rather than having to dead bug, then you would be better served to buy the mod chip from someone else and put it on a breakout board. You don't even have to make your own. You can buy a breakout board for practically every chip package out there right off eBay for maybe a dollar or 2.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 02:52:51 am
content: I modded my Playstation about 20 years ago, the mod chip was a PIC12 microcontroller using firmware I found online. I'm pretty sure I no longer have that firmware but it should still be out there somewhere, maybe here.https://assemblergames.com/threads/tutorial-making-your-own-ps1-modchips.55904/

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 05:14:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2018, 02:52:51 amI've been looking at that tutorial. It doesn't provide the file I need though I did I look around for a PIC12F508 specifically after taking another look at that tutorial and found what I was looking for from Microchip as a SOIC package. If I get a bunch of those that just leaves me with with the question of what that second component in the image is and what it's purpose is. Does it need to be there? Would I risk damaging something if I forgo using it?

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 05:48:22 pm
content: The second component looks like a MLCC capacitor, probably just 100nF for supply decoupling.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 05:53:33 pm
content: This looks like it should work for you.https://assemblergames.com/threads/ps1-modchip-hex-pack-v2.66568/What second component? It's been a long time, but it seems like there was only the PIC when I did it.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 06:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on November 04, 2018, 05:48:22 pmNice to know my hunch was right on that just on looks alone. Now all that's left is figuring out how it all connects together, creating a schematic then creating a PCB. Any wisdom you can enlighten me with?Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2018, 05:53:33 pmThere is a MLCC capacitor below the PIC. Thanks for the link though. It's got the Mayumi v4 Hex I need for my model of PlayStation.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2018, 10:34:41 pm
content: When I installed mine I just soldered kynar wire to the pins of the Pic, stuck the IC to a convenient spot with a dab of hot glue and then soldered the wires to the proper spots. I didn't use a PCB, there was only one component. A decoupling capacitor is probably not a bad idea but in my case it works without it.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 01:52:40 am
content: So I managed to throw together a PCB using EasyEDA that looks similar to the one I'm trying to recreate. One thing I'm not entirely sure of is where I should be connecting the decoupling capacitor to the PIC12F508. Right now I have it connecting to pin1(VDD) and pin8(VSS). To me it seemed to make the most sense. I am probably wrong as balls though.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 05:58:45 am
content: Yes it goes between the power and ground pins, so that's right. That layout is bizarre though, why wouldn't you rotate the IC 90 degrees so all the pads just line up directly with the pins they connect to? Then you can put the decoupling capacitor directly next to pins 1 and 8 that it connects to and not have those huge long thin traces between the cap and the IC. That's precisely why those pins are used for power and ground. The whole point of a decoupling capacitor is to put it as close to the IC as possible, minimizing any inductance.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 10:46:59 am
content: I honestly have zero idea how any of that even works. I'm just recreating the original mod chip like in the image. It's also the only way things will fit on the PCB. I could bring the location of the microcontroller down a little further if that might help?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 04:49:00 pm
content: Is there a reason the pcb needs to be that exact shape and size? The fact that someone else made it that way doesn't mean you have to. Personally rather than reinvent the wheel I think I'd just buy a SOIC prototyping board, you can get them for under a buck from China.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 06:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 05, 2018, 04:49:00 pmSpace. It's going to be attached to the underside of the PU-18 motherboard around where the EJECT button of the console is when looking it it from above. The smaller the better. The initial square design is much easier to compact if needed where as a more rectangular shape resulting from the pins facing the left and right wouldn't be if I want to make the pads as easy to solder to as possible.11x11mm Modchip PCB design:Funky Space Invader looking PCB(Approx. 14x11mm):The design of the third one is a bit Space Invader looking down to eliminating as much unneeded space. I'm also using a new lib(that is what it's called right?) for the PIC12F508-I/SN I'm gonna be using which appears smaller than the one I used at first. I'll need to update the first and second designs with that one if it is. Considering the size of the entire PCB and given how close things are anyway with the layout I prefer, do I really need to worry about it as much?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 07:00:29 pm
content: Don't make the pads so big. Bigger != better. The size of wire you are going to be soldering to them is probably 30AWG solid. The pad you want is maybe 50 mil by 50 mils. If you have extra space, you are better served to turn it into extra clearance around the pads. If for no other reason, this is easier on your eyes when you install it. Looking at a sea of shiny solder blobs, it is taxing to try to see a tree for the forest.Also in this square design, you have no clearance between pads and traces. This is bad. The soldermask is not going to perfectly align with the copper, and the default soldermask opening is slightly larger than the pad*; you can make a board where you can solder a wire and the end of the wire ends up touching the edge of the trace or plane that is running alongside, peeking under the misaligned soldermask.Around hand solder pads, I try to make clearance at least 20 thousandths on a rigid board, and I like even more if there is unused space.*If your software allows to change the size of the soldermask, and you wanted maximum strength of the pads to reduce risk of delamination through multiple reworking, you could make the pads as large as possible but leave the soldermask openings the aforementioned 50 mil by 50 mils. But not all software allows for that.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 07:05:14 pm
content: You called and they listened. Some background on how it works.https://hackaday.com/2018/11/05/how-the-sony-playstation-was-hacked/

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 07:41:53 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 05, 2018, 07:00:29 pmScotsman here. Not a chuffing clue what mils are. I work in mm. The pads I have are 2x2mm. If that does seem too large I could probably set them to 1.5x1.5mm. Trace width is 0.300mm and I'm not sure what making them thinner might affect. I agree that my trace clearance is shitty. I'm actually in the process of trying to clear it up.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 09:29:24 pm
content: A mil is a thousandth of an inch. 50 mil is 1.27mm

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 09:35:47 pm
content: Another tip, here. If you are going to have this fabbed, 2 layer board costs just about the same as a SS board. So you can play with vias and whatnot if that makes your pad arrangement more logical (less crossed wires over the top of the pcb when installed. In fact, you could put the pads on the bottom and glue the chip side to the motherboard to make the board dimesions even smaller.*Also, the thickness of the FR-4 for a board this tiny does not need to be the standard size of 1.6mm. A 0.8mm board would be plenty rigid enough.*If you wanted to put a silkscreen on the bottom, I would redesign the board so the bottom is the top. And the chip is on the bottom. Manufacturers like the silkscreen to be on the top layer.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 09:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 05, 2018, 09:29:24 pmOkay so I've changed the pad size from 2x2mm to 1.5x1.5mm and I'm in the process of re-tracing everything. I'm sticking with 0.300mm thick traces to save potential headaches. I have the decoupling capacitor connecting to pad 1 and pad 8. Pad 1 connecting to the VDD pin on the IC and Pad 8 to the VSS pin. Is there a better way to connect them together. Like connecting the pads to the pins as is but connecting the capacitor to the appropriate traces or vice versa?Quote from: KL27x on November 05, 2018, 09:35:47 pmI've tried using vias and can't seem to get them wired right so I'm just going with traces on the top layer. As for board thickness I'm settling on 0.6mm though if that's not gonna be rigid enough I'll go for 0.8mm.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 10:01:22 pm
content: OK, well, if you are using the full featured PCB CAD, you typically "route" your traces rather than drawing wires. You change layers while routing and the via automatically appears. But if you're just drawing copper wires, then I guess it can be trickier.Another tidbit, here, and a bit of a pet peeve. Complex routing looks cool, but on a tiny board like this, the routing creates a considerable kerf. If you left the board rectangular, V-scoring would save a bit of money in higher volumes.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 10:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 05, 2018, 10:01:22 pmI'm using EasyEDA and only just figured out how to do what you just described with it a minute ago. I'm just gonna stick with how I'm doing it with this design however. Seems to be the simplest option for now. And I'm not really going for complex routing if your on about what I'm wanting to do with the capacitor. I was just wondering if the way I'm connecting it all(Capacitors to Pad 1 and 8 then Pads 1 and 8 to their respective pin) was maybe unnecessary. What's V-scoring though?

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 10:52:37 pm
content: Somebody already mentioned it near the top of this thread but your PCB is just breaking out the SMD IC pins to bigger pads and has a decoupling capacitor. You can getSOIC 8 breakout PCBsfor very cheap. The decoupling capacitor probably isn't even necessary.If you're doing this to learn some PCB design then that is fine as well obviously.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:04:45 pm
content: The plan is to recreate the modchip I bought initially. I doubt I could buy a PCB exactly like the one I'm trying to recreate. I appreciate the help but sadly at this point it's moot.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:25:36 pm
content: "Routing" has two meanings here. Signal routing in software is the one thing. But in the other post I was referring to the board outline being routed by a CNC milling bit, vs V-score, which is making a V shaped groove partway through the PCB material. The cost for tab routing isn't really anything to write home about, but the kerf can add up when the board is so tiny. That small difference might mean the difference btn fitting say, 12x18 pieces on the stock sized copper clad they use in a machine, vs fitting 13x19, or about 14% more boards to the same size raw material.Not that it matters if you are just making 10 board for yourself. Go nuts.The way you did the capacitor is totally fine, but you could also make a more direct connection for the caps, if you wanted the absolute minimum ESR for your decoupling cap. It really doesn't matter; just a note because you asked.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:30:13 pm
content: A decouple capacitor should always be wired directly to the power and ground pins of an IC, as short and direct as possible. In this application it is probably not critical but in things that really need good decoupling those long spindley traces between the IC pins and capacitor would wreak havoc.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:40:11 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 05, 2018, 11:25:36 pmOh yeah I'm only gonna be making maybe 10-15 of these things since I'll most likely bugger up a few during assembly. Taking what you've said I've come close to what I'm considering the final design. I could probably do with moving the trace from PAD_5 along to the left just a bit but I feel everything else is fine. I could use a second opinion though.Quote from: james_s on November 05, 2018, 11:30:13 pmMate. There is no way in hell I'm getting the decoupling capacitor that close to those pins. I believe I've already said that. I have however connected it directly to the proper pins this time with the pads connected to those traces. I have no fucking idea if it will work but if it does...yay.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2018, 11:47:33 pm
content: It seems you could do quite a bit better than that. As people have stated correctly already, rotating the MCU on the board would probably save you loads of headaches. Decoupling pads need to be connected as directly as possible without unnecessary loops, so even if you're insisting on the complicated design it really pays to connect the VSS_B decoupling pad and the VSS_B IC pad together with a direct path. Just straight from one to the other without looping around.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 12:06:47 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2018, 11:47:33 pmI appreciate you saying I can do better. I know I can. And I do sort of understand why the decoupler needs to be connected as directly as possible just not exactly WHY it needs to be. I haven't the slightest fucking idea what I'm doing and it's great. However. This is a tiny ass 11x11mm board. I've got to factor in the size of the components and the pads and the space in which the fully assembled modchip has to occupy. The thing is only a single layer as well. If this was a much physically larger project then I'd be doing what I can to get the decoupler as close and as directly linked to the VSS and VDD pins as possible. I know that from looking at what I have right now I can make a more direct connection between VSS_8(Not B btw. It's an 8. Numbering the pins/pads to keep track of what goes where.) and the decoupler. But it isn't feasible to make a more direct connection between Pad 1 and VDD_1 with this design. I'd go for a more rectangular design over a square one if I could but due to needing it to have as small a profile as possible, I can't.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 12:14:33 am
content: Quote from: Katcher on November 06, 2018, 12:06:47 amI'm not sure why you'd want to give yourself trouble by using the sideways design. This means traces have to go all over the board, probably requiring more space than would otherwise be the case. Can you explain?

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 12:28:15 am
content: You can see the image right? The traces are running under the IC to connect to each pin once the IC is soldered in place. If I were to rotate the IC 90 degrees to the left I'd then have to elongate the PCB width-wise, IDON'Twant to do that because space(Also see my hilariously poor Space Invader shaped PCB a few posts ago. Looks great, probably isn't ideal). Did I also mention I'm trying to make it asCOMPACTas possible too? An 11x11mm PCB is as small as I can make it without running into issue. And given how damn tiny that is I don't really think the distance between decoupler and pins is a really big deal. I'm not having trouble with this design at all frankly and it doesn't seem the maker of the original design or those who have bought a fully assembled modchip and actually used it had trouble either. Sorry if I sound a bit arsey here. I get you're giving me advice I can use with future projects but there's just no way I can get the decoupler any closer than it is using this design.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 12:51:11 am
content: Okay so here's what I'm considering as the final board design. I'm happy with how it is but I'd still like some suggestions on some quick tweaks I could make that aren't to do with the decoupling capacitor before I generate the Gerber files. I plan on making an alternate design of this board utilising vias but I'd need to know the basics of properly using those first.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 12:59:48 am
content: I admit that decoupling is ugly. But the guys saying "it must" "it has to" are technically completely wrong. Either the chip browns out and faults, or it doesn't. And I guarantee this would work without a decoupling cap, so long as the spot you're tapping power and ground isn't measured in feet/meters. You're not driving any inductive loads or switching large transistors, and the PS board probably has 3x as many decoupling caps sprinkled around as it really needs and rock stable voltage levels.100% A-ok.As a learning point, you might want to check DRC settings and run a DRC check to make sure you have all the proper clearances between traces/pads. Typical fabs can do about 6-8 thousandths of an inch between traces without any additional cost. (Usually the trace width and space between traces is roughly the same for small signal traces; but it's totally fine to have fatter traces and thinner gaps as long as you keep them far enough apart, as stated).

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:06:56 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 06, 2018, 12:59:48 amHow do I use this DRC check? On EasyEDA I'm assuming it's Design Rule under tools? Also can I use holes in place of vias? EasyEDA keeps giving me bloody errors when I try to make vias smaller than default and it's annoying the shit out of me.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:12:05 am
content: Quote from: Katcher on November 05, 2018, 06:35:51 pmLet's step back for a second.The problem you want to solve is how to attach a modchip to your PS1.The reason they're sold with a PCB instead of as just a bare chip is solely so those who have no soldering experience can install them. Does that apply to you?If not, just glue the IC in place and dead-bug it along with its decoupling cap.Problem solved.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:15:50 am
content: Well, check where you are going to make your boards... minimum via size is another "luxury add-on," when you go smaller than the minimum. Same number, here, the minimum hole size is going to be around6-8 thousandths of an inch to not incur special costs.edit, sorry, probably about double that, around 15 mils minimum.Yes, Design Rules is what I was referring to.I'm not familiar with that software, but "holes" are usually not thru-plated, so they are not what you want.If Amyk and Co had bothered to read any of this thread, they would know that OP is embarking on an educational voyage to produce something for his own singular amusement.OP, don't worry, this is just how this forum operates on a regular basis.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:20:35 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 06, 2018, 01:15:50 amEducation isn't supposed to be fun, so correct decoupling it is!

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:24:49 am
content: Is all good. You've all been a wonderful help. I did some experimenting with Holes(HAH!). Seems like they can be used instead of vias. I'll utilise these in the meantime and get 5 boards made. If it works, hooray. If not I'll deal with large unsightly holes. Take that as you will. I get what Amyk is saying about just dead-bugging it but honestly that is messy. It's 2018, imma treat my tech with respect and hopefully not kill it in the process. That said, once I actually have the PCB's and components I think I'll install a new modchip into my SCPH-102 as well with the correct Hex. That thing was modded nearly two decades ago. Before I do order the components though, should I get a 100nF capacitor rated for 16v or 25v? I remember reading somewhere that voltage supplied to the components is between 3.5v and 8v so I don't want one rated at like 100v. That'd be silly.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:34:47 am
content: The 12F508 can handle max Vsupply of 5.5V, so it better not be 8V.I use 10-50V rated decoupling caps. And my main criteria is w/e is cheapest in the desired package and capacitance, esp where it doesn't much matter. There are additional ratings for tolerances and change with temperature, as well, say for example XR7 is some of the "good stuff," regarding temp stability.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:50:03 am
content: How can I go about testing the voltage that will be supplied to the IC? I can assume whatever it is I'd need to use will need to be in contact to where pads 1 and 8 will be soldered to via wire on the PU-18 board?

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:50:35 am
content: If it needs to be small, why not use double sided.Put the components on the bottom.Ignore pin numbers in picture attached. Mock up done in <30 secs.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 01:52:22 am
content: Well, what you're looking for is the nearest 3.3-5V rail you can tap (it depends perhaps on the chip on the mobo you are messing with.. You want to use the same voltage of its Vsupply so the logic levels match), close to where you want to put the chip. Try looking up installation instructions if you have trouble locating a spot, yourself, using say a voltmeter/DMM. But surely you have instructions or else how are you going to install the other connections?^Mr.B's gerber, that was what I was suggesting, before. This gives room for a teeny tiny silkscreen, too.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 02:01:34 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on November 06, 2018, 01:50:35 amI thought about making a double sided variant after recreating the original modchip but was having difficulty using vias in EasyEDA. Kept giving me errors. You mind if I use this mockup you made for the 5 boards that would be double sided?Quote from: KL27x on November 06, 2018, 01:52:22 amYeah I got the installation instructions for my board. Looks like I oughta grab a voltmeter before ordering components.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 02:13:19 am
content: ^Oh, one final.. if you use Mr.B's board design, some of the bottom dollar prototyping special 10 fer's don't do tented vias. And god knows why we have to suffer the term tented/nontented, because it is so damn obfuscating. Tented means covered with soldermask. Untented is nekked copper.So anyhows, if you try to put a silkscreen over a bunch of untented vias, it will remove the silkscreen.Also, be sure to view your soldermask layer to make sure if your vias are tented/untented as you intend them to be.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 02:15:39 am
content: Is there away to import Mr.B's design into EasyEDA or am I just gonna have to eyeball it and recreate that one too?

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 02:57:13 am
content: QuoteI simply posted a PNG into the public domain - feel free to use the idea.QuoteYou will have to eyeball it.I mocked that up in 30 seconds in Eagle and didn't bother to save it. (Would not import into EasyEDA anyway I don't think.)

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 03:04:57 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on November 06, 2018, 02:57:13 amEasyEDA can import Eagle fyi. But no worries I'll eyeball it. What's the outline measurements so I can start from there? mm preferably.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 03:24:43 am
content: Quote from: Katcher on November 06, 2018, 03:04:57 amSlightly bigger than the PIC...(Sorry, had to use that.)If you are happy with your original board outline size...1. just take your original design, rip up all the tracks to wireframe/ratsnest.2. flip the components on to the bottom layer.3. re-rout the tracks, using vias, to look something close to my example.One other side issue to be aware of...Most cheap PCB manufacturers have a minimum board size.The company I use has a 20mm by 20mm minimum.Your board is going to be a lot smaller than 20mm.You may need to lay up multiples and either have the PCB fab 'V cut' your board or cut them up yourself with a scroll saw.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 10:54:12 am
content: I'm using JLCPCB for my PCB's. Uploaded the Gerber files last night before bed and just waiting for approval before I pay. But I think I'll stick with my 11x11mm board initially then maybe tighten things up from there. Now with that out of the way leaves the elepehant in the room...how do I actually program the fucking PIC12F508? And because screw doing it the easy way and buying a programmer, imma fucking build one because it's a learning experience and it sounds fun.I am a great bloody idiot. During the design of my PCB I had "Chungus Inc." on the bottom silkscreen layer as a joke and forgot I made it invisible to help with laying shit out. I've already submitted the gerber files to JLCPCB and now my printed boards will have "Chungus Inc." slapped on the back.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 12:40:11 pm
content: If you really want to...http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41227E.pdf

author: Sudo_apt-get_install_yum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 02:09:21 pm
content: Quote from: Katcher on November 06, 2018, 10:54:12 amI’ve read through this thread and seen the versions of the PIC12 break out your making, for a first board it alright!Since you don’t know much about the embedded world ill help you out, DONT MAKE YOUR OWN PROGRAMMER!!!!Its so much work to do this and its way to complicated for a beginner like you. I dont think you knwo how much work it is to design a programmer. making a break out board is one thing. Designing the board for the programmer, writing the code is a lot of work.If your experienced with PIC's it wouldn’t take more than a few days but if your inexperienced with electronics design and embedded programming then it would be suicide, it would take so much time and you wouldn’t learn much since the difficulty level is much too high for a beginner.It better to slowly build your knowledge than immediately jump on the hard stuff not understanding the basics.Programmer like this is cheap and readily available so it’s just a time waste.I’m no pro but I have done a fair bit of PCB design and µC work.Take what I say with a grain of salt

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 02:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: Sudo_apt-get_install_yum on November 06, 2018, 02:09:21 pmThere's a link to a schematic for one a few posts back along with a program to use. Plus I have the Hex I need for my model of PS1(if that's the code you were speaking about) anyway since it's readily available amongst the modding community. I'd be way in over my head trying to make one completely from scratch. I can use that and make whatever alterations for assembling it on Protoboard. Like replacing the USB cable with a micro USB socket for 5v power. I can assume the PIC can only be programmed over Serial and not USB is due 12v needing to be supplied to the MCLR/Vpp pin? That much I can kinda guess since USB, to my knowledge, only supplies 5v. Even with that said I wonder if there is a way to do it over USB just for convenience sake.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 07:59:44 pm
content: If you have a computer with a parallel port, you can make a very simple programmer called a TAIT programmer. This is supported by free programming software that is probably still around.The TAIT is essentially just a voltage buffer to protect the parallel port with the addition of a voltage translation to 9-13V for the high voltage programming line. The software pretty much does everything through the parallel port, and the only reason it can't program a PIC directly through parallel port is lack of the high voltage Vpp. If you were confident on your wiring, you could literally connect the PIC directly to the correct pings of a parallel port, and for the programming line, take that line, use it to drive a transistor to switch a 9V battery to the MCLR pin.That's how I programmed my first PICs, incidentally. I can't remember the software I used, anymore, though.There was another very simple programmer starting with a J. It was made for the other stupid connector on the back of old computers. D25? Can't remember what that is, even.Microchip publishes the full schematics of their PICKIT2 and I think they host downloads of the firmware for the PIC18F2550. (If they don't, I have it). There are also some people who have made and published schemmies for simplified versions that have only fixed voltage power to target.I have made full versions of the PICKIT2 (with some minor additions), and I didn't even know how to use PCB software as well as you already do. Gottas say it took a few long nights to finish the layout, and even longer to populate all those parts. I was dumb enough to save a bunch of parts as if I'd just make more as needed, lol. I shoulda made them all back when.*software might have been called "EasyPIC." I'm not sure. If you google TAIT, you will probalby find a software. And the 12F508 was a flagship baseline PIC from 20 years ago; it is definitely supported by these old softwares.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 09:00:46 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 06, 2018, 07:59:44 pmOkay so most of that went over my head. What I managed to get though was that there's a a serial programmer that I believe is known as a JDM programmer(of which I have a schematic of) and a parallel programmer called a TAIT programmer. I know of Microchip's PICKIT thingamabobs(Fuck me this is an actual word?) but don't know if I can use it as an alternative to a JDM/TAIT programmer or if it's to be used in conjunction with one. I have neither a Serial or a Parallel port on my PC since it's using an MSI board from 2017 so if there is a way to do this over USB I'll have to go for that. I googled EasyPIC but instead of software I found a PIC development board but it's whatever $150 equates to in GBP. Screw that. I'm a tight bastard.I did a little bit more digging around and came across a USB PIC Programmer.http://usbpicprog.org/Would this be of use to me?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 09:54:39 pm
content: If you don't have a DSUB or Parallel port, then you can't use the simple TAIT or JDM programmers to essentially program the chip with the computer, directly.The USB programmer you linked has the same problem with building a PICKIT. The heart is a microcontroller which itself needs to be flashed.I don't know a way you can make your own USB programmer without having a programmer.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 10:03:47 pm
content: That...does present a bit of a hurdle. I doubt Serial/Parallel to USB adapters even exist or work if they do?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2018, 10:20:34 pm
content: I think when I made my mod chip I hacked together an adapter that plugged into the parallel port on my PC at the time. Now you can buy a ready to use USB PIC programmer for under $7 shipped from China though, there's no point in trying to build one. That is, assuming they will program the part you're using. That's a frustration I've had with PICs in general, seems like I'm always running into a situation where the part I want to use is not supported by any of the programmers I have.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 12:00:18 am
content: I think I just need to buy a PICKIT 3 or the likes for now or even order the PIC12F508's already programmed with the Hex through Microchip. Doesn't even look like my board has a COM header for a Serial port to connect to in the rear of my PC.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 02:34:23 am
content: Quote from: Katcher on November 07, 2018, 12:00:18 amhttps://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PCI-E-PCI-Express-Dual-Serial-DB9-RS232-2-Ports-Controller-Adapter-Card-Gre-G0H6/252875184661

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 07:52:42 am
content: Why buy a serial port and build a programmer when you can just buy a USB programmer for about the same price that will likely support more devices? The problem with a lot of the old legacy programmers is that the software expects direct access to the hardware, which is for the most part a thing of the past with modern operating systems.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 08:29:50 am
content: QuoteThey exist, but they are fundamentally flawed. They will work for some applications but not for this, AFAIK. My vague understanding is that USB protocol introduces interruptions and latency into the equation, so a USB-to-parallel can't do this in real-time.I recommend you buy a PICIT2 or PICKIT3. And if you want a clone, that's fine, just don't buy a Sure Electronics.PICKIT2 lost product support, so no modern devices have been added since I don't remember. Maybe something like 2013-14. So PICKIT3 is "better" if you want to do embedded programming with PICs. But to flash stuff, you have to install and load a bloated Java software and make half a million mouse clicks in a maze of mistakes-waiting-to-happen everytime you use it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 10:03:05 am
content: USB parallel ports also aren't capable of the s/w 'bit bash' manipulation like the old LPT ports used to be. Things like Tait rely on this.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 01:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on November 07, 2018, 08:29:50 amHow can I keep an eye out for ones made by Sure Electronics so as to avoid them? Any telltale signs to look out for? Looking at PICKIT3's on Ebay right now and the kinda just look the same.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 08:22:48 pm
content: They have a solid black case (and are only sold from Sure Electronics seller/store.)Tommy DVP has the best clones if you want to do programming to go feature with 8 bit pics, out of my experience with the genuine and 3 different clones. It's more stable than even the genuine one I have. (They all crash, eventually, needing a reboot. Some clones this happens nonstop. I have multiple copies of 2 non-Sure clones, and this is not a fluke; it is consistent behavior between the different devices, trying every available firmware suite revision a few years back.)The Sure Electronics has had major issues with the Vtarget which I dunno if they have ever fixed, satisfactorily. I'm pretty handy, but I never got mine to work at all, despite there is info out there that apparently fixes some of them.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 09:43:15 pm
content: Well I can't seem to find any Sure Electronic ones on Ebay(good thing I suppose) but I can't seem to find these Tommy DVP ones you mentioned. But even then I guess anyone that isn't a Sure Electronic one is good enough right?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2018, 10:00:17 pm
content: For your purposes, yeah. The black one was the only one I ever found sketchy.I took a quite gander at eBay. I thought there may be a difference because you're in scotland, but I think the problem is I'm giving you 4 year old information.I don't even see the variety I used to. One said "kit3" on the front, instead of "PICKit3." It looks like some of them have died off.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 01:08:03 am
content: Good to know any clone will do me. Well I'll certainly make sure to drop an update on everything once the boards, components, and programmer arrives. Right now the only thing I can do is wait.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 03:58:41 am
content: For a little bit more money you can get the latest programmer/debugger.https://www.microchip.com/developmenttools/ProductDetails/PartNO/PG164100https://www.arrow.com/en/products/pg164100/microchip-technology

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2018, 12:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: oPossum on November 08, 2018, 03:58:41 amThat MPLAB Snap certainly looks interesting. Seeing as it's only £11.48 I might actually go for that.Actually, looking at the datasheet I'd need to create a board specifically for supplying power to the PIC12F508 I'm using since it require's 12v on the MCLR pin. Something I don't know how to do. I'm better off settling with a PICKIT3 clone or a PICKIT4 is I got the cash.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 12:49:53 pm
content: So PICKIT3 arrived and I found a pinout diagram for it. My only question now is how do I connect it up with the PIC12F508 I've chosen to use? I have double sided protoboard if needed.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 06:09:22 pm
content: Code:PK3 12F508-------------------1 MCLR MCLR 42 Vdd Vdd 13 Vss Vss 84 PGD GP0 75 PGC GP1 66 LVP --- -http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41227E.pdf

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 06:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: oPossum on November 10, 2018, 06:09:22 pmSo can I just get a board that will allow me to socket a SOIC package PIC12F508 into a DIP-8 socket and wire that socket up directly to the pin outs?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 06:40:10 pm
content: Yes, or just tack solder wires to the corresponding pads on your mod chip board and connect those to the programmer, what's what I do for this sort of thing.If you were going to make a whole load of them, you'd build a test fixture with pogo pins where you just hold the board down or flip a cover down to hold it in place and flash the firmware, pop it out and put the next one in.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 10:21:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 10, 2018, 06:40:10 pmFirst solution I can do no problem but this pogo pin solution has grabbed my curiosity. The hell is a pogo pin and in what way could I utilise them?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2018, 12:45:20 am
content: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pogo+pins

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2018, 02:18:11 pm
content: Boards arrived. I'm impressed with JLCPCB's quality with such a small 11x11mm PCB. I might need to make a second revision of this design though. 11x11mm is a little too small for me to comfortably work with and I underestimated how thin 0.6mm is for thickness. Maybe go back to a 14x14mm or 15x15mm board with 0.8mm or 1.0mm thickness, keep the pads the size they are too and sort the outline for the IC so I know how to orientate them.In the meantime though I can certainly use these to get things working.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2018, 07:06:58 pm
content: Update time:So the PIC12F508's came today and I have one soldered to a modchip PCB with pins attached to pads 1, 4, 6, 7, and 8 to connect those cables arduino kits have(dunno what they're called) between it and the PICKIT3 clone I have. Trying to use MPLAB X IPE v5.10, everything seems to be working. The application detects my IC and whatnot and it succeeded in programming it but how do I check to see if everything is fine before I install it in my PS1?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2018, 02:16:56 am
content: If you haven't enabled code protection (why would you?) you can do a readback to compare.That of course assumes you know the code works; for testing the latter you're probably better just connecting it to the PS1 and trying it out.

author: Katcher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2018, 06:31:46 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 15, 2018, 02:16:56 amCouldn't seem to find anything to do with Code Protection in MPLAB but it seems to be off. Flashed the made up modchip with the appropriate Hex for the Slim PS1 and used the wires already in place from the old 12C508A that's been in it for at least 17-18 years now. It thankfully worked despite my crappy SMD soldering work. Next item on the metaphorical shopping list, cheap-ish microscope that isn't pish. There is one weird thing that I'm not sure if it's to do with the modchip. The modded slim PS1's output on the TV via RGB SCART(Luma Sync cable) is all wavy vertically and can be barely noticeable or close to a bad acid trip.