Ban of non-rechargeable batteries - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 01:15:01 pm
content: Every year we throw billions of empty batteries in landfills.Many ideas have been discussed over the years, many projects have been drafted (e.g.: AA cells with Micro-USB charging feature), yet still every remote of the planet keeps eating standard AA/AAA cells.In your opinion, why is this obsolete piece of technology so difficult to eradicate? Is the problem on the technical side or more on the political side?Thank you in advance for all your thoughts.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 01:52:14 pm
content: Technical side. Alkaline cells have a long shelf life, great for emergency use. Any kind of rechargeable will "decay" slowly after every charge, there is no guarantee they will be ready for you when you need them. They also have lower output V, and my understanding is that they also hold less power capacity. For example, Alkaline AA will be around 2500 mAh compared to NiMH at 1200-1900 mAh. I'm not talking about lithium because they also have their own problems and special circuitry required to charge cells, monitor temperature, etc..., adds cost and complications.There is a purpose and usefulness for each type of battery. They all need to coexist. I agree that we should try for rechargeable when practical. For example, many toys and radios now use them. Computers and cellphones and now cars on various forms of lithium batteries. Great. But certainly "one-use" should never be banned. Recycled yes, but we need these batteries.If the problem of "throwing away in landfills" is bothersome, perhaps battery companies can incentivize recycling by putting a "deposit" on each battery or providing a credit towards a new pack of batteries, like they do with empty bottles and cans. Right now battery drop-offs (and other eWaste) are found in lots of big stores like Staples, BestBuy and so on.... but there are no incentives to do so. I would love to raid the dumpsters of these eWaste bins... Likely more than half the stuff can be easily repaired or pieces cobbled together from different machines to make a better one. But rather than allowing hobbyists to "refurbish" these and get "down-cycled" (reused by people who don't need the latest and greatest hardware, put Linux on the machines and keep them as plug-in-only laptops, etc), they get sent to China or Pakistan to get picked apart by people without any safety protection and get exposed to all sorts of hazardous materials. I know down-cycled stuff will still end up being thrown away eventually, but it will at least delay things and prevent people from buying even more stuff. Obviously manufacturers don't like that, they would rather see you dump things every few years.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 02:06:38 pm
content: Quote from: edy on June 30, 2020, 01:52:14 pmTechnical eh .. how about reality ... and I have many more other examples posted in this forum alone.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 02:12:10 pm
content: Alkaline batteries still make sense in many applications. NiMH cells, even low-self-discharge types, still discharge quicker than an alkaline in storage or under low load. For example, in a regular wall clock, the batteries will last 5-10 years. Why do we need to use NiMH cells in those? The alkaline cells will cost less and consume less resources to produce, even if the rechargeable can be used a few times. The same deal applies for remote controls.I would say lithium AA cells would be a good place to focus energy on eliminating. Besides some speciality applications like smoke detectors that need 10 year lifespans, these batteries are not really worthwhile compared to NiMH. Most camera kit now uses integral Li-Ion cells, but if it does use AA cells, then NiMH can usually be substituted - most cameras are designed to function from these cells, although some may need to be configured to correctly display battery level and shut off when the cells are exhausted.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 02:30:45 pm
content: If it were necessary to eliminate primary cells from the waste stream, we could mandate a recycling deposit. Right now, it is difficult to find a recycling location for batteries near me.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 02:42:53 pm
content: ^ in our city we put spent batteries (not car batteries) in a zip lock bag on top of our recycling bin. So, the mechanism is already there, just depends on how progressive your city/suburb is in dealing with and collecting waste.Primary lithium cells are still the best solution for emergency equipment such as epirbs and other such devices.cheers,george.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 03:02:02 pm
content: I used to recycle batteries at Radio Shack. Their store locator now has nothing closer than 12 miles, requiring a drive to the suburbs.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 03:07:36 pm
content: I haven't bought any non-rechargeable AA or AAA batteries in the last 20 years or so. I can't actually recall when I last bought some, but it must have been the 90s. Since Eneloops became available, these are more or less the only AA and AAA batteries I'm using (deliberately). The only non-rechargable AA/AAA batteries I own came in remotes and the like. I bought a few 9V batteries as long as there were no good alternatives available. Tried NiMH but the voltage is too low from the start. Some years ago, I replaced all of them with LiFePO4 batteries though which seem to be an ideal replacement. Other than that, Lithium coin cells are actually the only kind of non-rechargable batteries I bought in the last years and only for things like mainboard CMOS batteries where a rechargable battery wouldn't make much sense.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 03:19:41 pm
content: Quote from: edy on June 30, 2020, 01:52:14 pmI don't think I have seen NiMH AA cells sold stores in the last decade or so that had less than 2000mAh capacity. I have several sets of Energizers that are 2400-2450mAh, even the pair of old NiCd cells I still have are 2000mAh.You can certainly find 600mAh cells and similar but those are either cheap garbage or special purpose items, such as cells with reduced self-discharge meant for clocks and such.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 03:32:30 pm
content: Technically, Alkaline cells ARE rechargeable, despite what the package says these days. It used to be a thing back before other rechargeable technologies became cheap enough for the general market. Memories.https://zbattery.com/Recharging-Alkaline-Batteries-Fact-or-Fiction

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 03:41:35 pm
content: Sub 1000mAh NiCd cells are often used in low power solar lamps (here in NA they are actual AA or AAA cells rather than those tiny soldered in button cells you have over there). I keep a little box of them around to swap out when one fails (also has a few NiMH and LiFePO cells). Yes, I know you should not store NiCd cells discharged, but I don't have a charger short of my bench supply, so I just chuck them when they get to 0.0V (they are cheap crap anyway).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 03:46:28 pm
content: This is a huge industry and a source of revenue to the governments. Cant be easily banned i'd think.

author: KrudyZ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 03:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on June 30, 2020, 03:41:35 pmThat is of course the real environmental concern. Buying cheap crap, containing toxic materials and chucking them after a short service life. That's how we turn the earth into a giant landfill...

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 04:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 30, 2020, 03:07:36 pmYou might want to check out this rechargable 9V Li battery that includes charger and switching regulator.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 04:12:57 pm
content: At one point Energizer sold 2650mAh AA Ni-MH cells although I think these were discontinued as their self-discharge rate was abysmal (30% capacity loss per month) and cycle life poor (300-400 cycles.)But they were available.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 04:21:35 pm
content: Alkaline cells have good performance for their price, their materials are relatively non-toxic, and they have better availability than similarly sized primary and secondary cells of other chemistries.

author: M0HZH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 04:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 30, 2020, 03:46:28 pmI think this is completely unfounded.It is much more expensive even in the long term to use rechargeables than disposables.Quick math:8xAA Rechargeable+charger= £22.22 (£2.775 per cell)100xAA Disposable= £21.99 (£0.21 per cell)This means a rechargeable cell costs roughly 13 times more than a disposable.In the most common use for AA batteries (remote controls), batteries last 1-2 years; to get your money's worth out of a rechargeable set you'd have to use the same set for about 20 years. There are no rechargeables with a lifetime of 20 years of continuous duty, even the TV's average life cycle is 7.5 years, the charger will probably break or get lost many times by then. And you also have to live with not using the TV remote for 8-12 hours because the batteries are charging, every few months, for 20 years.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 04:34:57 pm
content: Quote from: KrudyZ on June 30, 2020, 03:54:37 pmAt least with the replaceable types you can fix them by changing the battery rather than throwing the whole thing away (not that the lights last much longer without corroding anyway). But it's what makes those thing cheap, simple, and compact, hence why they are so common. They could make them with better batteries that didn't fail, but then they wouldn't be cheap crap anymore.They do sell replacement "solar" batteries which are a bit better (closer to regular old fashioned NiCds), but agian...the whole thing will rust away eventually anyway. If they made the seal on the panel better so it wouldn't leak after awhile, then things would stop getting corroded as fast and it would be better on the batteries as well so they could have full charge cycles without fighting corroding contacts.In fact, I have a recently deceased patient right here, just changed the battery recently (with a charged one from the box), but it still died. Let's see what part of this POS bit the dust.Ah, insect ingress...get out of there! No? Ok then...*bug spray...water*. Pests removed.Now the battery (I saw a flash of light, so possible just bug crap on the contacts).Of course, battery at 500mV and falling now, negative spring corroded...time for filing.EDIT: The springs appear to be made of cheap steel (ok for inside only stuff, but not outside) which is also part of the problem.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 05:14:33 pm
content: Quote from: brabus on June 30, 2020, 01:15:01 pmThere are safety low power devices that rely on the battery being non-rechargable. Non recharghable batteries have a more gradual discharge curve and can handle extreme temperatures better.For example, avalanche reserach beaconsstronglyrecommend alkaline batteries

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 05:37:02 pm
content: I have a solution.... Instead of batteries in remote controls and other low-energy "on demand only" use devices, just put in a hand-crank generator and a supercap. Give the wheel a few turns to charge the supercap and you will probably have enough power to send a few commands to the TV for the next few hours. No batteries needed, ever!Or you could use a Faraday Flashlight ("Shake a Gen") concept to charge up a supercap. Just shake your remote and never use batteries again:Seriously, remotes today shouldn't need batteries. They are so low power, this would do the trick. Also it would make them easier to find as they would be larger. No more lost remotes!

author: MarkR42
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 06:28:11 pm
content: I have a doorbell with a "kinetic wireless remote". It is basically a heavily weighted springloaded switch which hits a piezo crystal quite hard and generates enough charge into a capacitor (presumbaly + regulator circuit) to run the radio / microprocessor for the fraction of a second required to send the digital signal. Very clever stuff.I have no idea how robust it would be long term, but ideal for a wet environment as there are no batteries to leak or corrode.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 07:07:12 pm
content: Quote from: MarkR42 on June 30, 2020, 06:28:11 pmOr the orginal TV remotes that used audio from plucking metal reeds.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 07:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: M0HZH on June 30, 2020, 04:32:16 pmYou are trolling, right? Because you have picked exactlythe oneuse case where rechargeable batteries are a poor choice because of poor self-discharge behavior and low current requirements. And built your entire argument on thatAA cells are used in tons of other things than clocks and TV remotes - many toys (e.g. Legos, Furbys, ...), some cheap cameras, wireless game controllers (e.g. Xbox, Oculus Quest, Wii ...), some home appliances use them (various mini vaccuum cleaners, electric potato peelers, etc.).If you have kids and they have a game console that uses a game controller powered by AA cells, you will realize the advantage of having recheargeables on hand pretty quickly. E.g. my Quest goes through a set of batteries in the controllers every few days when I am using it regularly. And no, an integrated lithium battery wouldn't be better - AA cell you can swap and continue playing, with a non-replaceable battery you are SOL until it recharges, so Oculus (and Nintendo before them) knew exactly why they decided to use AAs instead.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 07:32:43 pm
content: I use rechargeables in all my remotes, mostly for leak damage avoidance. The batteries in the remote for my TV, which is almost 6 years old, have needed recharging once. I have a lab thermometer that uses a 9 volt battery and is always on. It will use up a standard battery in about a month. I switched it to 9 volt Li-Ion several years ago and that alone has probably saved me well over a hundred bucks.

author: ace1903
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 07:47:47 pm
content: Alkaline batteries if made properly are actually better for the environment. Recently I saw on TV how these batteries are recycled into nutrients for the soil. Iron, carbon, KOH, zinc, MnO2 and other microelements are good for corn and other cultures. Some processing is needed but completely possible. I also recently searched to find a way how lithium-based batteries are recycled and there is no public thesis or other materials.In alkaline batteries recycling the biggest problem is to identify mixed NiCd ones and to separate them(also Hg based but those are rare these days).

author: FriedLogic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 08:07:20 pm
content: One issue with rechargeable batteries is that they often have very high short circuit currents. I get a bit nervous about putting them into cheap junk or things not designed with them in mind.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 08:22:00 pm
content: My Tecsun shortwave radio (PL-310ET) takes 3 AA batteries. You can choose between 2 different modes... either to put in regular batteries or set it to NiMH batteries. When you set it to NiMH batteries, it lets you charge them inside the radio through the mini USB port!Great solution to use standard AA size NiMH (and not some custom internal battery pack). This way I can easily swap them out with a new set of charged batteries if needed, or plug it in the wall to charge them in the radio (while the radio is still on even)! I wish more devices were designed like that!

author: M0HZH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 09:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 30, 2020, 07:15:03 pmRemotes are by far the most common use for AA / AAA cells. Other common uses also have the same profile, low power long life: clocks, thermostats, doorbells, sensors, wireless mice / keyboards etc. The recent game controllers from Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are rechargeable now, digital cameras have made the switch long time ago and all the other stuff is a small market comparatively.The only area where it might be more economical to use rechargeables is with toys. Even if the number of users is low (1 in 10 households ?) the use is quite intense for a few years, so it's probably more cost effective to use rechargeables.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 09:43:55 pm
content: We’ve got a wireless keyboard near the tv pc and it has solar cells on it. Been going okay for maybe ten years. Never have to put it by the window, just leave it sitting in the middle of the room. Might take a bit of extra space, but a remote could also have them.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 10:05:06 pm
content: I think Aldi, in Aus at least, has battery recycling drop off bins. In fact, many businesses do, ie battery stores for old alkaline or lead batteries, mobile phones, auto places for waste oil etc. Maybe something nearby to you has that facility.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 10:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 30, 2020, 02:13:06 pmEven cheap NiMH batteries rarely leak, far less often than even good quality alkaline.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 11:08:59 pm
content: One of the main reasons I switched to rechargeable was damage caused by leaking alkaline cells. Doesn't have to happen very often to wipe out years of cost savings.Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 30, 2020, 10:11:56 pm

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 11:30:20 pm
content: I haven't bought any alkaline batteries for remotes and other low usage locations for years, I use the "worn out" batteries from the ones supplied with new equipment. Imagine the manufacturing waste if I were to tie up rechargeables in such locations. For high drain uses of course rechargeables make sense.There's a bunch of fanatics in a local forum promoting Eneloops for everything without thinking.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 11:34:49 pm
content: Not all rechargeable are the same. The value of using rechargeable is if you can efficiently use up its lifetime vs the one-time-use-battery. For individual use, it is manageable, but when the usage involves other, rechargeable battery can become one-time-use battery oftenly. I have to keep educating and reminding people what batteries are rechargeable, and not throw them off and how to recharge them.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 01:47:42 am
content: On the bright side, portable electronic devices have reduced its power consumption significantly as technology advanced.Other than smallish transistor radios, most devices back then would use C batteries, at least 6 of them. Then they became 6 AAs, then 4, 3 or 2. Nowadays AAAs are the most popular format, with some devices using a single AAA cell.Now, I know, I know. I am comparing apples to oranges.But my point stands: far more capable devices require far less power.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 03:10:50 am
content: Quote from: brabus on June 30, 2020, 01:15:01 pmYou suggest it's "obsolete" yet we go through billions of them? Isn't that a contradiction? I know in my house the number of single-use batteries significantly outnumber rechargeable equivalents and at this stage there are several applications where it's not feasible to use rechargeable batteries. Smoke alarms are one example. NiMH replacements have a lower voltage so you'll find yourself getting up on the ladder a lot sooner to recharge/replace them. Shelf-life and self-discharge is another issue, particularly in devices with a very low or no standby current draw, again, smoke alarms come to mind. Most of them here are hard-wired so they only rely on the battery when the power is out.As for a solution: Perhaps manufacture them from materials which will breakdown and corrode more readily when exposed to the elements (like a garbage tip)?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 03:19:48 am
content: I know many of you are satisfied with your rechargeable batteries, but until the last few years I have not found any that satisfied me. The technologies have changed over time. NiCads were a disaster on life and bad for the environment. NiMH are better on life, but haven't really filled the bill. The Li chemistry batteries used in power tools have finally achieved useful life, but are incredibly expensive. How many of you are totally happy with the rechargeables in your laptops or cell phones. They meet the use case, but are often a primary reason for replacing the machine.For a wide variety of applications the alkaline cell is just more user friendly. In spite of its known faults. Rechargeables do meet a need in some applications. Usually high current, high use things like toys and electric shavers, but the field is wide open for a really good rechargeable battery.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 03:22:21 am
content: its like banning a energy density class of devices. primary cells are always going to be impressive in terms of energy density.how about no. This is LALA land green power shitcoin cells? d primary cells? they are BEASTS. The trick is to design equipment so it can brave a leak. And they offer product designers an easy entry to market. 2$ for 30Wh and it can be sold with no problems in ANY store without any precautions.I actually switched my wall clocks to NiMH and I am thinking of switching them back to alkaline, there is little benefit there.Not that it would hurt the industry to develop more efficient recycling methods, but they are a useful technology.The main problem is that device manufacturers specify the wrong cell or try to use a cell in a system without cutoffs or high off drain (the leaky soft switchFUCKED UPthe battery industry). If you are making a battery device, please read the chapter in Art Of Electronics on soft switches and talk to your OEM distributor about life expectancy from quiescent drain.. you won't be disappointed if you follow the rules.And make the batteries easy to replace with good quality snap hinges or latches (there is a real problem here, if you need to undo 4 screws to change some batteries, chances are the person that is using the device is thinking ALOT more about leaks because its time consuming and annoying to switch batteries. Also, make it so you don't need to use a tool to get the batteries out (the little ribbon that you yank on under the batteries helps so much). Might mean more expensive mechanical design but if you make it easy, and pleasant, those batteries are much more likely to get replaced.Shitty snap hinges that break and lead to fixes with sticky tape coverings are no good either.Alkaline devices have a bad reputation because there are some seriously bad device producers and some seriously bad batteries to go with it, some people get by chance, stuck mixing bad devices and bad batteries and they go crazy. And, with the advent of the soft switch, they can have a defective device that makes all batteries go bad and leaky, because a transistor broke and its drawing unusually high currents when its turned off.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 04:58:46 am
content: I haven't bought disposable AA batteries in at least 10 years, I'm always surprised at how widespread they still are, I consider them obsolete beyond a few niche uses. I don't really like outright bans of anything however I'd be ok with a modest tax on disposable batteries to subsidize rechargeable types. People have demonstrated time after time that most are either incapable or unwilling to grasp the total cost of ownership. Many people even still use "cheap" incandescent lamps, completely oblivious to the fact that the majority of the cost of a lamp is the electricity to run it.My Eneloop batteries have paid for themselves many times over. For every remote or clock there are 10 other devices I have that drain the cells much faster so ultimately it's economical to have a pile of fungible NiMH cells that I use in everything. The only disposable alkaline batteries I ever buy anymore are D cells for my Roomba virtual walls, true D NiMH cells are rare and expensive. Most are just a AA inside a D size housing.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:04:46 am
content: Quote from: M0HZH on June 30, 2020, 09:22:00 pmI have 3 remotes in active use, I can probably whittle that down to 2 if I can be bothered to get my media player working with the same remote I use for my TV. I have loads of other stuff that uses AA's, flashlights, portable test equipment, electric toothbrush, wireless thermometers, weather station consoles (AA's in C adapters), label printer, handheld video games, I'm sure there's some other stuff I'm overlooking. I'm not sure how many NiMH cells I have but there are at several dozen AA and AAA's at least.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:29:36 am
content: look at powerex and tenergy for rechargable D cells (better then those ridiculous adapters). With LSD technology it makes sense to use larger NiMH cells for D and C applications. Those adapters are a serious stopgap measure and for emergencies. I hate how its wasted space.The way to find if a D or C cell is good : look at capacity 4000+ for a C and 8000 for D (less then a primary C or D). The rechargable cell is like a Zinc Carbon without the leaking problems. A bit better I think.The tradeoff with NiMH is that if you put low self discharge technology in it, it lowers the capacity at the benefit of extending life.. most battery manufacturers sell 2 types because it makes sense to (a battery hungry super flashlight thats actually used and not an emergency light will benefit from high capacity higher self discharge batteries)..But IMO, you either go with Alkaline or with NiMH LSD, in most cases, the high self discharge batteries are too frustrating to use IMO. Its like stuff for businesses where you can put a flashlight on a work truck that gets used alot and will also be recharged as a result of employee training), or for calculated use (i.e. keep a set handy for putting into a data logger or such that you know will be used for sure within some time frame). Using batteries right requires planning. Those high self discharge batteries IMO are too situational, when you need them even for a known duration event they will likely be uncharged and it will delay you to use them, so alkaline is great. I am not willing to go into that level of management. They do however serve a purpose...Also for some operations if you consider TIME and MONEY, it makes sense to just throw the things out instead of bothering with recharging them, since its faster and you get more throughput.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:34:44 am
content: Quote from: brabus on June 30, 2020, 01:15:01 pmJust because a product or technology has been around for a long time doesn’t make it obsolete. Wire is an old technology, but it’s hardly obsolete. Jars are ancient technology, and still absolutely relevant today.The fact is, with lithium ion batteries being such cheap, good performers, I’d hazard that most applications where rechargeable makes sensealready ship that way.Infrared remote controls probably make up the vast majority of standard-cell powered devices in my home. Everything with even slightly higher power consumption is already inherently rechargeable, from phones to speakers to flashlights. (The only device I can think of that really uses rechargeable AAs is my old Apple trackpad. I use it with NiMH. But the newer version of that device, the one sold for many years now, uses lithium ion.)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:36:30 am
content: having to recharge stuff in a pinch sucks and it sucks even more for businesses. They will LAUGH at the cost of batteries for the stuff they do. Its debilitating to maintain space and procedures for charging.Basically you are getting into 'fleet ownership' when you go into rechargeable batteries. Disposable keeps things running so long the stores are open. The last thing some office needs is some battery nazi telling people to recharge stuff all the time.So I can come home and I want to cook meat then some batteries need to be charged for a thermometer because I was busy with things and I got to find a charger and plug stuff in and give me a fucking break just put some god damn AA's in the fucking thing and GET ON WITH LIFE.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:39:59 am
content: Yep. And they’re so cheap that for critical applications, they’ll replace them preventatively, dead or not. For example medical devices. But also things like wireless microphones for concerts. Spending $20 for all new batteries is peanuts compared to the cost of having a $200,000 event not go smoothly.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:41:30 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 01, 2020, 05:39:59 amI think your numbers are too high. Delays piss off people in events very quickly. I would do it for a 500$ profit show at a bar. Cost of doing business. Like you want to delay drunk people for 30 seconds so you can put money in your pocket at the end of the night. Think of business like that scene in the movie 'oceans 11'.I think that some people in this thread would pull out a fucking dynamo and spend 30 minutes cranking the thing to fix the detonator for a bank robbery.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 10:36:27 am
content: That made me literally laugh out loud!Reminded me of the people on Extreme Cheapskates who wash their used paper towels with soap and water and then hang them up to dry.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 12:41:57 pm
content: The 'problem' I have at times with 'AA' 'Rechargeables' is in the likes ofsome Camerasetc.Rechargeables are typically1.2vinstead of1.5v. So "Low Battery" comes on tooearly!!!P.S...Re: say 'AA' batteries in general... you can tell when they are 'CRAP' due to their WEIGHT!!!When a pack of4 'Duracells'weighs as much as a12-packof cheapogarbage!!P.P.S...Any company, including 'Eveready' etc, can EASILY make normal 'disposable' batteries last10 timeslonger!, but deliberatelyDONTdue to simple economics for the company!!!

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 03:05:48 pm
content: Quote from: M0HZH on June 30, 2020, 09:22:00 pmThat sounds more like you are extrapolating from what you have at home, not any serious numbers.Quote from: M0HZH on June 30, 2020, 09:22:00 pmUm, nope:New Xbox controllers:https://www.vg247.com/2020/03/31/why-xbox-series-x-controller-aa-batteries/The Oculus controllers I have mentioned already. Nintendo Wii/Wii-U controllers were never rechargeable, Switch's Joycons can use AAs as well in the form of an external battery pack:https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/22775/~/joy-con-aa-battery-pack-faqValve's Steam controller uses AAs too.Only the Sony gamepads use internal rechargeable batteries, as do PS Move controllers (used by the Playstation VR system). Also some XBox controllers were available in a both rechargeable and AA powered versions.Quote from: M0HZH on June 30, 2020, 09:22:00 pmAgain, nope. Granted, most digital cameras use lithium cells these days but not all - and I am not speaking about the various disposable cameras:https://www.ephotozine.com/article/top-10-best-aa-battery-powered-cameras-2019-20942There are also accessories like this battery grip for Canon cameras:https://www.amazon.com/Powerextra-Battery-AA-size-Infrared-batteries/dp/B01NA7J50GThese are quite popular by pros because it is always better to run to a store and grab a set of AAs than to be screwed because all your batteries are flat due to some unforeseen event and something important is about to happen.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 06:10:59 pm
content: Not sure if anyone brought up NiCd batteries yet... they also have benefits in certain applications. While many people think Lithium variants have supplanted everything, NiCd are still used in a lot of devices. They are quite resilient, usually sit on a trickle-charger 24-7 and ready for use when needed. I have NiCd's in devices over 20 years old that I still use, fairly forgiving and have their applications. Many home appliances like shavers, toothbrushes, cordless phones, drills, vacuums, etc... use these. Also one of my old Tamiya 1980's era remote control cars uses a 7.2v NiCd pack, still performing after over 30 years.Unfortunately many appliances use non-standard NiCd battery sizes or create serially-connected "packs" of batteries soldered together and wrapped in some plastic (or hidden inside the device) with some custom wire connector. One of the cells in the middle of the pack may get bad, or need individual reconditioning. If you could separate the pack, or if the device allowed you to insert individual cells you could likely find the culprit, recondition or replace the bad cell and keep using it for much longer.I think we all understand thatdifferent battery technologies exist and persist because each has different applications for which they are most optimal. There is no "ideal" rechargeable yet that fits every single situation, hence the need for both one-use and rechargeable energy sources. Banning is not an option, but educating users and controlling the waste stream is the key.I personally test out all my batteries (especially from the high-drain devices) at the end of their useful life and will typically re-purpose them into lower-drain devices (like remotes) that typically sit on standby. Usually the battery voltage in a high-drain device will tank quickly and not be able to stay above the operating voltage (of a toy car, for example). But put it into a remote or keyboard that uses very little current draw, and the voltage coming out of the "dead" battery is still good enough to last a long time.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 06:30:29 pm
content: "different battery technologies exist and persist because each has different applications for which they are most optimal."Exactly!Is a little bit like opamps. If there was a single device which was the "best" across all applications, only that paticular number would sell.But we have 100s of different opamps, each serving an specific requirement, sometimes very niche.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 06:48:00 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on June 30, 2020, 03:41:35 pmWait a second please ... For NiCd cells, the best way to store them long term is "fully discharged". Even better is to discharge them fully on purpose before storing them, this can be easily done by connecting a suitable resistor across the cell while in storage. A NiCd cell stored this way will be in usable to good shape after many years of storage. If put to storage in charged state, a NiCd cell will degrade to e.g. increased internal resistance or less usable capacity.But ... Don't do this to NiMH cells, it's the best way to kill them quickly. These should be put to storage in fully charged state and checked / recharged at some intervals.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 06:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 01, 2020, 03:19:48 amI think some early--and perhaps current--underperforming products have skewed perceptions a bit. I've likely bought my last alkaline batteries ever, at least in AAA/AA/C/D/9V sizes. Some, especially the D size, may have more capacity than NiMH, but when you factor in the leak risk, there's just no realistic use case for them IMO. Hopefully I've also thrown away my last battery-leak damaged device, which was a nice MagLite ruined by Ray-O-Vacs that were a bit past their marked expiration date (R-O-V are sticklers about the date--no warranty for me...)For AAA/AA, Eneloops will replace every alkaline with minimal inconvenience. They're lasting well over a year between charges in remotes, etc. The only exceptions are those few things that are set aside and rarely used or never used except in emergencies, have zero draw when off and are really needed when you need them--and those get Energizer Ultimate Lithium. Also, one remote I have with an LCD display likes 3.6V much better than 2.4V, so it gets these too.For C/D, Tenergy Centura works perfectly and they hold a charge for quite a while--not a full charge, perhaps, but you can put them in rarely used tool or Scopemeter and it will work when you pull it out a year later. My cat feeder has been going 6 months on a set of these. Just be aware that Tenergy has a bit of a higher defect rate than Eneloop, so you will have to test them all and cull the weak ones. I've only had one slightly substandard C cell, but a few more of the AAA/AA Premium (not Centura LSD) ones were lower capacity and probably defective.For 9V, Energizer Lithium again for anything that is even slightly inconvenient to replace--smoke alarms, DMMs that have screws on the cover, etc. I haven't found any really great 9V NiMH, but I haven't much use for them either.I don't know what the big deal is about charging and storing. Your alkaline batteries need space in a closet to sit there and leak in their packages, so how hard is it to set up a simple charger and rack for your rechargeables? All you need is a few spares and you are just as ready to go as if you had alkalines.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 08:00:44 pm
content: BTW, it is possible to recover (some) MagLites with battery leakage. The hardest part is pushing the cells out by tapping a punch onto the switch assembly, which must then be repaired.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 08:09:27 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 01, 2020, 06:48:30 pmEneloop was the breakthrough that did it for me. Prior to those I would have agreed that rechargeable batteries just could not match disposable alkalines in any application other than high drain toys and other devices that are used frequently and consume batteries quickly. Use old fashioned rechargeable cells in a flashlight and you'd find it dead whenever you actually needed it. Eneloops solved the self discharge problem and suddenly NiMH cells became practical to use in flashlights, radios, label printers, thermometers, and all manner of other low draw or infrequently used devices.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 08:10:17 pm
content: Quote from: helius on July 01, 2020, 08:00:44 pmOh, I tried. I put way too much time into it too. I screwed a slide-hammer puller into each cell and yanked them all out one at a time after a 24 hour soak in water. I needed to do that just to see what cells they were. I actually got it to work, sort of, but the electrolyte had eaten the case almost all the way through and had gotten into the light bulb holder as well--it could not be unscrewed without breaking it. And the switch was eaten up too, even though it still worked. The worst part was the light worked when I put it away 6 months prior and the batteries date expired in the interim. They timed it perfectly.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 08:17:14 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on July 01, 2020, 12:41:57 pmFind a way to do that and you'll be wealthy almost overnight. A tenfold increase in capacity of any battery technology would be a scientific breakthrough that would be front page news. A company that developed such a battery could patent the technology, charge 5 times as much and rake in billions.Frankly I think you're just talking out your ass.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 10:42:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 01, 2020, 08:17:14 pmMaybe he means ten times longer shelf life.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 11:06:22 pm
content: Or ten times longer before they leak.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:06:12 am
content: we had the answer back in the 80's just recharge your "disposable" batteryshttp://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/1989/h142.html

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:30:43 am
content: I have tried some experiments with recharging alkaline AAs (not Duracells, that would be futile, but Hitachi Maxells). Even when using very slow charging at 100 mA, and a very conservative termination of 1.55 V, there was slight leakage on 1 cell out of 4. The alkaline cells that were intended for recharging would have had different geometry to handle gas generation and so on, and even those were prone to leakage, one reason they didn't last long on the market.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:40:07 am
content: I also did some experiments with recharging alkalines with similar results. I recall I was able to achieve reasonable success if I only ran them down to around 90% before topping them off but ultimately it was more hassle than it was worth. I remember the rechargeable alkaline cells that were claimed to be good for about 25 cycles but between the higher cost of the cells and the expensive special charger they required it never seemed economical.As for shelf life, I don't need them to last decades, but it would be nice if leakage prior to the "best by" date was an extremely rare occurrence rather than practically the norm. Back in the 80s-90s I don't remember ever having that happen, Duracells were good quality back then too.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 07:57:42 am
content: I've made my own 10 button Tv remote 8 months ago and replaced it's battery 9v battery with an 18650 after 2 months of use. I have not recharged it since. So a fully charged 18650 lasts 3 times longer than zinc 9v. pretty satisfactory.Quote from: brabus on June 30, 2020, 01:15:01 pmI would sin-tax em if i were a dictator, while forcing companies to make their devices not only with replaceable battery, but forcing them to share a battery type among each other. Imagine, if you could put apple's 4000mAh battery into samsung or vice versa. Who gives a s#*t about phone thicknesses.But the main problem isn't the dispose-ability of battery, but the fact it's quite expensive to collect and separate batteries when there are so many people who know jack-s#*t about emQuote from: janoc on June 30, 2020, 07:15:03 pmKid's stuff are mostly AA powered cause I think, China doesn't have much skill with using li-polys... I've seen far too many "ipod nano" clones rc toys, specially those made by silverlite (pretty popular where I live) with ballooned batteries. And when they die, you need to know soldering to replace em. Thus very few people buy em and go for AA model instead.Quote from: edy on June 30, 2020, 08:22:00 pmSame for fuji cameras, which can work on voltages of anywhere between 3.8-6v. This allows you to power them directly from power bank.Too bad that the company wants to sell you an adapter (a plastic with 2 metal nubs connected to a wire) for allowing you to do so. I said f it to it and i'll be making one out of delrin and bronzeSame goes for their rr-80 remote. I saw it's schematic online and made myself a wired copy and I already have a wireless one in the making.About wall clocks having AA, I'm slowly replacing them with my own PoE IoT (local network) clocks cause the standard quarts clocks are too inaccurate for my taste (they go off by 5 minutes every month, donno why so much deviation.Quote from: M0HZH on June 30, 2020, 09:22:00 pmToo bad. most of those console remotes are with hard to replace batteries, unlike 8bitdo.Quote from: Circlotron on June 30, 2020, 09:43:55 pm10 years? at first I thought did such a thing exist back then, then I realized time moved on and I stayed behind :p.But my 5 year old rapoo mouse is pretty fine for me...even though I had to change the wheel encoder and a button nub (not the whole button, since it wore off from friction of wheel rubbing it) inside of the mouse. I charge their NiMh every 3 months

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 03:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: edy on July 01, 2020, 06:10:59 pmNiCd has been nearly entirely replaced by NiMH for those applications. (They make special ones designed for trickle charging.) And in many cases, even lithium ion.The EU Battery Directive prohibits NiCd in pretty much everything except alarm and medical batteries, so they’re not used in shavers, etc any more.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 04:02:28 pm
content: Just a thought, but I don't think banning non-rechargeable (primary) batteries would be a good idea at all, nor would it lead to something better for the environment. I'm almost convinced it would be the opposite.I think points why have already been made.- Primary batteries, at least the common alkaline ones, now that mercury has been banned in most countries I know of, are a lot safer for the environment than rechargeable batteries.- They also are easier, and consume less power, to manufacture.- Unless very severely abused, they have no tendency to inflate or worse, explode.- Their shelf life is usually much longer. Corollary is, if you can find some that have been stored, even for a rather long time, they are immediately operational. Can be a life saver. Related fact is that rechargeable batteries are likely to be discharged at the very moment you need them. Especially true for less often used items.- (Another related point is that recharging batteries IS an annoying dependency. It may be ok for a couple items (your phone for instance), but imagine you now have to recharge all of your electric items on a regular basis. You're becoming slave of your own gear somehow.)- Related to the above, it's unclear whether the overall net outcome (in terms of environment) is better for rechargeable batteries. May be in some cases, but in the grand scheme of things, I absolutely don't know (and I'm not the only one.) Likelyvery much depends on the application, but replacing all primary batteries by rechargeable batteries for all applications would likely be a problem in terms of environment, and we probably don't even have the resources for that.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 09:37:16 pm
content: try building projects that work on disposable batteries instead of having to put charge circuits in everything, its refreshing. a new EE is like expected to struggle with fucking switching power supplies and shit now..just enjoy linear reg + AA batteries and stop worrying about nonsense

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 11:17:59 pm
content: Quote from: capt bullshot on July 01, 2020, 06:48:00 pmAh, I got that backwards, so they are fine then. Also, when I say I chuck them at 0V, I mean 0.000V and usuallyinternaly shorted/leakyso won't take a charge. This usually happens with the crappy generic chinese cells. Also, the ESR on these cheap cells (the lower capacity ones) is such that they barely charge at over 30mA anyway (they are meant for trickle charging).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 05:04:04 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 02, 2020, 04:02:28 pmThat was true 25 years ago but times have changed. For more than a decade already almost all NiMH cells have been the low self discharge type, they come pre-charged and hold a substantial charge for years. I've left them in a seldom used flashlight for at least 3 years and they still had plenty of charge left. I've had brand new alkaline cells leak faster than modern NiMH cells self discharge.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 05:47:38 am
content: We don't need a ban of anything, once a product's value and utility are gone it will go away by itself--like buggy whips, VCRs and dot matrix printers.Slavery would have disappeared during the "industrial revolution" as machines replaced manual labour--the so-called "Civil War" was just a typical politically motivated government fustercluck to "fix" something that would have gone away anyway; just as automation is eliminating unskilled labour now."Improvise, adapt, and overcome": Human's, like most of nature;s creatures when left to their own devices, are good at that--and quite resilient; government intervention has screwed up more things than it has ever fixed...

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 09:55:52 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on July 02, 2020, 11:17:59 pmLeaky is K.O., but "internally shorted, so won't take charge" is easily fixed by applying a rather high charging current for a few seconds. Good cells are fine again afterwards. A quality NiCd cell is quite a robust thing.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 12:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 03, 2020, 05:47:38 amBuggy whips are still current technology for those that deal with horse teams. Apparently you aren't one of them, so that's your perception.VCR's, true, although my neighbor still uses them for her security system.Dot matrix is still one of the cheapest and most reliable printing technologies. Used in a number of niche applications. Like POS terminals. Or by businesses that need carbon-copy forms or continuous feed paper. Still used enough that you can buy them new, should you want one yourself.As for slavery, if you think it no longer exists, please educate yourself:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_centuryI'd say more about your civil war/politics opinion, but this really isn't the right thread, or even the right forum, for it.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 03:49:52 pm
content: The price of Li 1.5V rechargeable has become interesting. Soon they shall reach your shore, and US shore too (shall depend on Trump). I got some AA and AAA from China Taobao to try. So far is promising.I found those Li AA that has microUSB charging very good for wireless mouse and keyboard usage. Big mAH, and no need to hunt for charger when the batteries run weak.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 11:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: capt bullshot on July 03, 2020, 09:55:52 amThese are cheap garden light batteries. They are not high quality, and physically robust but not sure about electrically. I can try next time a cell fails, but not gonna be happy if a "Xang-dong" or whatever it is cell bursts. I'll have to get an explosion containment pie dish.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 06:55:54 am
content: up next : how to recycle wall paint(this is how you trash devices fucking with gas pressures in cheaply made vessels filled with caustic soda)its not a conspiracy. its thin walled high pressure corrosive materials confinement for under 1$.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 06:58:18 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on July 03, 2020, 05:47:38 amhave you heard of the cubical before? they would just put a bed in one of those and you have functional slavery until .... when?And on a more serious note, you should study the German slave industry during WW2. It was alot bigger then just the famous camps. Study satellite camps. They were quite industrial, and productive. You sound extremely uneducated of history. They managed to make use of slaves in applications as advanced as chemical analysis laboratories and precision machine works. Basically you save on employee pay and OSHA stuff related to long term life expectancy (so expect unsafe work with radiation, poor PPE, bad exposure limits, etc). Anything more complicated then 'it blinded me so I can't work tomorrow' is of no concern at that point.Seriously this is some delusional uneducated shit that makes you sound evil.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 11:43:45 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on July 01, 2020, 12:41:57 pmThat's because the device is poorly designed and depending on the current draw, could be wasting as much as half the capacity of alkaline cells. A properly designed device should operated down to at least 1V per cell. I hate this kind of junk.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 12:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 01, 2020, 08:17:14 pmHello therefriend. I'm actually well aware of what generally comes out of my 'ass'...And it isnot pretty... (Maybe yours is 'special') However, it hasNO relevanceto what I said.For decades, in virtuallyeveryfacet of technology, there was initial ignorance in technological advances.And THAT'S ok mate... as 'we' have learnt a 'shit' (from ones ass) load since then. One FACT remains though, isthat companies/people have learnt to 'capitalize' on such 'inventions' considering minimal input!!ONE of those, is the ability/technology regarding batteries, where it is a FACT that companies could producesuch batteries to last at LEAST 10X longer, but DON'T because it obviously goes against their business acumenthat will result in MASSIVE losses of sales, otherwise...I pose 'my' ASS, against your 'assumed' knowledge any time. Have a 'nice' day...

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 12:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 04, 2020, 11:43:45 amI think it depends what the original cct was designed for. I was talking about a lot of equipment designedfor 'AA' batteries, (ok, often old), that when powered with '1.2v' is quickly underpowered...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 01:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on July 04, 2020, 12:10:51 pmWhat sort of device was it: high or low power drain?I would expect a higher power drain load to work better down to lower voltages, than something with a very low current draw. Alkaline batteries typically have a relatively high impedance, compared to NiMH, so a 1.5V battery will quickly drop to 1.2V, with any significant load. If I remember rightly incandescent torches (flashlight) used to use a slightly lower voltage rated lamp, than the battery voltage, so a two cell unit would typically have a bulb rated to 2.2V, rather than 3V.Lower powered devices will probably do poorer on lower voltages, because the cell voltage should remain higher, at low current draws, but I still hope most will function down to 1.2V, with no problem.I think there's a lot of badly designed products out there, built down to a price. I've seen LM78L05 regulators used in devices powered by 9V alkaline batteries, when a low-dropout regulator should have been used instead. Quite often this increases the cost of ownership, compared to spending a little more on the device itself.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 05:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: Raj on July 02, 2020, 07:57:42 amThat's odd, do you have wide temperature swings in your house? I have a few different quartz clocks and they typically hold to far better than that, maybe a few minutes at most in a year.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 05:47:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 03, 2020, 05:04:04 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–metal_hydride_batteryThe low self-discharge type has been introduced in 2005, so that's 15 years ago, not 25. Those cells are pretty good indeed, although with a slighly lower capacity as a trade-off. But even to this day, not all NiMh batteries on the market are of LSD type, far from it (and the average joe is likely to buy non-LSD batteries, because those are cheaper and because they just don't know... or even just because they will tend to go for the highest capacities, which look attractive, which are likely NOT to be of LSD type.) As an example, a typical capacity for NiMh LSD AA batteries is 2500mAh, whereas you can find NiMh AA batteries up to 3000mAh, which are unlikely to be LSD IMHO.Standard NiMh batteries OTOH still have a relatively high self-discharge rate.I've never seen a decent-brand alkaline battery leak within a couple years. If from a major brand and stored properly, their shelf life is longer than 5 years usually, 10 years is not uncommon.A corollary point, but not directly related to shelf life point I was also making is that, due to our habits and a bit of Murphy's law, random rechargeable batteries stored in a drawer are likely to be depleted when you actually need them (partly because of self-discharge, but even with LSD ones, just because you're likely to have stored them discharged unless you're very disciplined.) I for one have a few primary batteries in drawers (never used), but pretty much all secondary (rechargeable) batteries I have, I've used them at least once (I think storing brand-new rechargeable batteries for extended periods of time would be relatively unusual, compared to primary batteries.) So this point was not just about technology, but about the practical aspects.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 06:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 04, 2020, 01:24:45 pmVery true.Quote from: Zero999 on July 04, 2020, 01:24:45 pmI suppose you're talking about the case where the user uses rechargeable 9V batteries instead? I don't quite remember how low a typical 9V NiMh battery can go for instance? Something like 6V or 6.5V? Then yeah, a 78L05 wouldn't cut it.A better approach (although a bit more expensive usually due to the inductor and more expensive regulator) is to use a buck converter, instead of typically dissipating almost 50% in the regulator itself: (9V-5V)*I. Loosing almost half of the capacity of the battery just to shave maybe one dollar, probably less? Eek.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 06:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 04, 2020, 06:25:28 pmHard to remember because some NiMH 9V manufacturer (TEnergy Centura line for example) use 7 cells and some use merely 6 cells. So you have a mix of nominal voltages.At 7 cells, nominal NiMH cell total voltage is 8.4V. So my 7-cell TEnergy Centura (which is in my UT61E) can happily delivery most of it energy ataround8.4V and it stays around 8.4V until remaining capacity is below 10%. When it does go below, it crashes down like a rock since most of it energy is delivered. That is the behavior I want, keep going till near death.At 6 cells, , nominal NiMH cell total voltage is 7.2V. It is half-dead coming off the gate. I would imagine it wouldn't reach 6V for a while, but 6V to 7V is not a happy range. Too bad 6 cells seem to be the rule rather than the exception.I did a mini-review of the TEnergy Centura 9V long time ago (2013) when the cells were new - it didn't drop below 8V until 94% to 96% of the energy was delivered at 1/10 C discharge. At a higher 1/3 C discharge, it kept above 8V till 92% of the energy was delivered. Once I get my bench cleaned up (and found that two load resisters I used for the tests), I may do a follow up and see how that same 6 years old Centura is holding up these days - it has been in my UT61E since the test so it is kind of an old man of a battery now...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/tenergy-centura-9v-and-tn141-mini-reviewEDIT: Rather than using numbers from memory, I reworded a bit to use the actual numbers I had -- since I found my old post

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 08:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 04, 2020, 05:47:04 pmWhere can you even buy standard NiMH batteries anymore? Maybe random China sellers? I haven't seen them in years, all the ones that the local stores around here carry are pre-charged (LSD), all of the Amazon branded ones, all of the Ikea ones, even the cheap stuff like Tenergy is LSD, albeit not as good quality as the Japanese stuff. It's a complete non-issue, yes I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find garbage, just like if you can easily find junk alkaline cells that leak (Duracell, Kirkland, etc) but excellent quality NiMH cells have been widely available mainstream products for over a decade, I literally have not bought a single disposable AAA, AA or 9V battery in more than 10 years and this has not required any extreme measures or sacrifices. It surprises me that anyone still buys them, I can only assume they are either "penny wise and pound foolish" or they are not aware that technology has progressed.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 08:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 04, 2020, 06:25:28 pmI'm talking about alkaline batteries. If your device won't work at 7.2V, then it's wasting a large proportion of the battery life of a 9V alkaline.Here's some tests showing the discharge curves of some 9V alkaline batteries.https://www.powerstream.com/9V-Alkaline-tests.htmAlways design for a lower cut-off voltage of 6V and not only will the device work off NiMH, but it will also make full use of ordinary alkaline batteries.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 01:28:17 am
content: One does not have the luxury to test or to know how a device going to draw on its 9V battery before owning one. My LSD NiMH 9V batteries are being replaced by 9V rechargeable lithium. Save quite a bit of time and hassle in troubleshooting is it power or insufficient voltage problem.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 05:44:42 am
content: No, he's right, some times there is clearly an idiot involved in the engineering. The cheap TM-904C thermometer that's been around for years uses a 9V battery*. The 9V battery goes to a 3.3V regulator, which then goes to the switch that turns the device on/off. Two problems: a) using a 9V battery for a 3V device is just stupid, and b) the switch is on the wrong side of the regulator, so the battery goes flat in the drawer after a few weeks, even if switched off.The fix was actually quite simple: replace the 9V with 2 AAA batteries (existing battery compartment is large enough) and bypass and remove the regulator from the circuit. Actual draw of the circuit without regulator is very small, so batteries will last for many months, even if left on. Lo-battery indicator comes on at 2.3V*These days you can buy a 3V version instead, but the 9V version is still available. Originally, 9V was the only option.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 06:25:29 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 04, 2020, 05:07:27 pmCould be...I have no central ACSome clocks have direct sunlight falling on them through the window while others are in air conditioned room but they all deviate hugely from the internet based clock. I guess it's as expected with clocks that I actually got for free with heavy appliances.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 05:56:17 pm
content: Sunlight falling on the clock controlled by a quartz crystal will definitely affect the accuracy. The clocks built into large appliances often use the mains frequency as a timebase so the accuracy of those will depend on the electrical grid.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2020, 09:07:24 pm
content: And long term, the electrical grid is extremely accurate.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 05:21:36 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 05, 2020, 09:07:24 pmIt is in much of the world, but not everywhere. Most of the old Soviet digital clocks used a crystal timebase for that reason. The person with the clocks is in India, I have no idea how stable the power grid frequency is there.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 12:19:56 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 04, 2020, 01:24:45 pmHi there, 'Zero999'. Sorry about the delay. Only on forum every2 or 3days!!The main item I was talking about, is myKodak Z710digital camera, which I like....It's not a junk cheap product, (or wasn't..), and has a fantastic proper main lens. I understand that suchrechargeable batteries have better 'current' abilities, even when dropping to 1.2v, especially with repeateduse of the 'Flash', but even new (charged) rechargeables only give me about 15 shots with the flash!

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 02:48:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 06, 2020, 05:21:36 amFrequency stability is very important with systems interconnected in an electrical grid, but is not so important with isolated distribution systems. This situation varies even within individual countries.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 03:12:21 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 04, 2020, 08:55:27 pmI see, and agree with the general idea. Of course always design you power supplies so that they can work over the full operating voltage range of the batteries it's made for.I haven't used 9V batteries in designs much at all, so I wasn't expecting them to still hold a significant charge when their voltage is below ~7V, but thinking about it, it makes sense. I guess they often are made of the equivalent of 6 1.5V cells? And yeah, 1.5V alkaline cells still typically hold a significant charge down to 1V or even 0.9V.Anyway, as I said for this particular example, using a linear regulator is itself a bad idea as far as capacity is concerned. The chunk of the capacity you're going to waste just by dissipating power (6V to 9V down to 5V) will be much more significant than what you're going to waste if it stops working at around 7V or so.Of course if you don't have a choice, it's better to use an LDO. But it's even better to use a switching regulator here, if you can.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 08:59:23 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 06, 2020, 03:12:21 pmYes, alkaline 9V batteries are made of six 1.5V cells.I forgot to say, NiMH has a much lower impedance, than alkaline, so if a device is properly designed, the lower voltage shouldn't be a problem.http://adventuresinarduinoland.blogspot.com/2011/02/easy-nimh-discharge-curves_08.htmlhttp://lipobatterymanufacturers.weebly.com/lipo-battery-manufacturer-blog/lipo-vs-nimh-batteries

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 06:10:50 am
content: Quote from: helius on July 02, 2020, 12:30:43 amI have done a further experiment on somenickel oxyhydroxidecells (Duracell PowerPix, made in Japan). Since the nickel chemistry has a higher open-circuit voltage, I used a termination of 1.7V and 200 mA. Results were okay at first, but the cells spilled their guts after a few weeks in storage. These are definitely not candidates for recharging. Interestingly, the spilled electrolyte is opaque white, whereas liquid leaking from alkalines is clear.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2020, 09:39:25 am
content: I've placed my caliper's the silver oxide battery in my caliper on my bench supply at 1.8v for 1 day around every 2 years now just as the digits begin to fade. It's been like this for around 15 years. Am I doing anything wrong?Also, I just tied 3.6v to my car starter's lithium CR1216 battery for a day once it died. After the day, it actually read an even lower voltage, like 1.9v, however I found a trick. I shorted out the battery for about 5 seconds, and then battery read 3.4v right after. My car starter has been working fine for over a month, so I cannot say as to how long the recharged lithium will last.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 12:19:00 am
content: Got to love a bit of over enthusiastic greenwash.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 01:35:49 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 01, 2020, 05:36:30 amCook your meat by guesswork, as the Almighty intended!

author: MarkR42
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 08:44:00 am
content: Update:The piezo activated wireless doorbell thing has failed after just a couple of years in a moderately dam environment, I have concluded that a primary cell would be more reliable. Particularly as this thing could probably run for many years on a single small cell.Primary cells can be replaced, the piezo thing looks totally unmaintainable (I opened it, but I wasn't able to see any problem, I guess the magic piezo pixies went on strike)

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 08:46:10 am
content: I wish everything would just switch to using lithium ion cells. Basically treat protected 18650 or perhaps a new smaller form factor the same way as AA batteries. They have the advantage of being rechargeable and also having a very low self discharge rate compared to say, Ni-MH. Ideally a new form factor that is also designed to be handled by the average joe would maybe be in order. Something with a built in fuse perhaps so that even if you short it out it's not going to explode. Maybe a poly fuse?

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 01:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: M0HZH on June 30, 2020, 04:32:16 pmI have some Sanyo 1650mAH NiMH from 1999 (before Eneloop) that can still be used. I gave them to my son once I had enough Eneloops and he uses in his Lego motor power box. Some of my Eneloops are 1 years old now and still going.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 02:17:11 pm
content: My father has a rechargeable shaver with a 25 year old NiMH battery pack in it (3 x AAA in a sealed package), that I just replaced last month for him as it was running a little short after a full charge.Not bad at all!

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 04:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: edy on July 01, 2020, 06:10:59 pmTrickle chargers though were a big reason for NiCad's demise. While they are/were the most tolerant of trickle charging it does tend to slow cook them to death. This is why Nicad's lasted over 10 years in my old Makita drill but NiCads in cordless phones and solar lights only lasted a couple years, the Makita drill was a smart charger that would stop charging when the battery was 'full' but the others would trickle charge them to death.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 04:37:19 pm
content: I have some 20+ year old NiCads that are still usable and some other chemistries of similar age also usable. But they are the exceptions, not the rule. Just as there are incandescent bulbs still burning after many decades of use.The reasons for survival are multiple and at least partly unknown to me. Initial quality. Careful storage. Benign usage. Careful charging. .....It would be unreasonable to expect all of these things to line up for the general population of batteries. Some Lithium chemistries are more robust to the ills of battery usage, but I still think it is optimistic to assume 20 year life for the bulk of the population.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 04:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on July 03, 2020, 12:30:58 pmAnd used consensually in the bedroom for certain lifestyles

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 04:43:47 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 04, 2020, 08:43:34 pmI still see non-LSD NiMH sold in grocery stores where the average non-technical person is still likely to buy them. Thankfully I haven't see the Energizer 15 minute battery cookers but still see their non-LSD batteries. Those have done a lot to steer people away from rechargeables over the years.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2020, 04:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 16, 2020, 04:37:19 pmMost of the NiCad's and NiMH I've seen that didn't last very long were due to either too slow (trickle) or too fast (15 minute) charging. Since Li based cells require more precise charging circuits you don't find the bad charge designs like you do other cells. Though its still rare to see a Li based cell more than a few years old. I'd bet your long life batteries had a decent charger.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 04:35:04 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on October 16, 2020, 08:46:10 amYou can buy an AA size protected LiIon today. $8.00I like them, but resisted using them. I think my wife (or myself) will probably get them mixed up and try to stuff two of them into something that expects two 2x1.2V and be blasted with 2x3.7V. Bye bye equipment.Nitecore NL1485 14500 850mAh 3.7V Protected Lithium Ion (Li-ion). I consider Nitecore a reputable brand, but that is an untested opinion only.https://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-nl1485-14500-battery.html?msclkid=2f519302cf2b1fd9a729cc88bc219d36

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 04:43:54 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 17, 2020, 04:35:04 amYeah but I'm thinking make products actually designed to just take straight lithium cells, simpler that way and make it standard. The lithium AA have active circuitry to bring the voltage down so more subject to potential failure. Though I guess the same can be said for protected lithium cells they have active circuitry too, though much simpler.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 05:15:21 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on October 17, 2020, 04:43:54 amIf more products are designed for it, that would be nice.For the 2xAA or the 2xDD, often, I try to just see how it works with a single 3.7V LiIon. My emergency radio (2xDD) is now running on an 18650. The 2xAA emergency radio, well, I could use one of those 14500, but reluctant for reasons I already said in prior reply.If just more products can be made to function down to say 2V, then the 2xAA or 2xAAA can run nicely from NiMH. Or, we should revive Alkaline recharge cells that really put out 1.5V, and rework it to have hundreds instead of tens of cycles, that would help too.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 05:24:20 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 17, 2020, 04:35:04 amRather than Nitecore, just go straight for Sanyo/Panasonic UR14500P 840mAh cell, red one at below photo, bought it while ago together with with my new Lumintop EDC05 AA sized flashlight, capable of using Alkaline/NiMh or Li-Ion cell (with twice the brightness) and won't over discharge either types.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2020, 05:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on October 16, 2020, 01:48:34 pmWe have a Dust Buster from the mid 80s at our cabin that still has the original NiCd batteries in it. It doesn't run very long but remarkably it does still work.