Alternatives to China/JLCPCB PCBA assembly when tariffs increase - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: b177
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 07:56:30 pm
content: Hello,Question, primarily directed to the small-business owners, but interested in hearing opinions for all experienced people here. For small-med PCBA, say 1000/year, what is your current thinking on how you will respond to the proposed increase in tariff on Chinese imported products? Are you looking at moving in-house (ie desktop PNP), US PCB+PCBA shop, Mexico, etc?I have done an initial cost analysis for our BOM if the PCBA was done 'in-house' (in USA), but it isn't comprehensive enough to know if the PCBA equipment cost is justified. So many BOM items are so much cheaper at JLCPCB, particular Chinese branded components (passives, small signal FETs, etc). Even with tariff these parts will probably remain cheaper than the US equivalent. But other items, particular more specialized ICs, JLCPCB isn't a great deal, prices are better direct from the manufacturer, which may or may not have tariff depending on the mfg. And then anything that needs to come through a US distributor, the price is at least 50% more than JLCPCB (and may have tariff passed thru by DK). So a lot of shopping around to find the best deal for each bom line item (i.e. use lower cost Chinese brand + tariff, or more expensive US brand with less tariff).And for folks that are already doing 'in-house' small volume production, have there been additional costs beyond equipment? has solder paste, consumables, maintenance, etc been a significant added costs that changed the profitability of bringing it in-house?thanks,

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 08:55:24 pm
content: Quote from: b177 on January 13, 2025, 07:56:30 pmHave you accounted for your time or floorspace or utilities?Not only do you have the setup costs of the line (and the time it takes to do that), you also have to run that line with man hours and electricity.The space requirement depends on the level of machine you go for. Desktop machines are quite small and only require a desk of space, small draw oven, you can have a whole line on a nice large desk.But if you are doing more complex assemblies, you need a real PnP machine, 4-6 zone oven etc. It quickly adds up to a whole room.If your product brings in enough cash to warrant doing it, go nuts. But you might want to consider trying to find another small business locally that does PCBA as a service who can just handle everything for you.

author: b177
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 09:30:00 pm
content: We are only building one board, with no plans for additional for designs. I've looked at the Neoden desktop machine, as a reference point, it seems capable enough (size, feeds, speed, etc) for the design. Can likely fit a 5x5 panel, 3-4 panels per day ~100/day, so would only need to do assembly just a couple times per year. That is great for being able to do other things, but has the issue of remember where & how everything is done, etc.Yes space is a major constraint for us, and spending my time marketing to increase unit sales by 25% is likely to be more productive than reducing COGS by 25%. But if the tariffs go to 60% or even 80% as being thrown around... then in-house production could be worthwhile.You mentioned utilities. Is this a major cost for a small setup (ie desktop pnp, draw oven, manual stencil printer)?

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 02:03:30 am
content: Your failure rate is very likely to cancel out any tariff savings.

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 03:14:27 am
content: I suspect many Chinese CMs will open shops in other countries to work around tariffs. The mid-sized CM for one of my clients is opening a new factory outside of China and moving some American products there (high volume stuff). I just got an email from PCBCART - whom I have never used - for their new PCB/PCBA facility in Thailand.https://www.pcbcart.com/article/content/Thailand-Factory-Launches-in-March-2025I'll be looking at that and other outside-China CMs if the tariffs appear. I took a look at a bunch of USA-based PCB/PCBA CMs at the end of last year and at least for my personal volumes (~250-1k/year per board-type) there were none that were even close to affordable for me. I wouldn't consider my own setup because I've heard horror stories from friends who tried to setup a small production line themselves. They spent a lot of time getting their process to a reliable point.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 08:08:35 pm
content: I have several products that I get made in China so am watching the tariff thing very closely. If we see a 30% tariff, I will just bump my prices. Starting a production line here is out of the question and I'm pretty sure I won't find a domestic manufacturer that will be less than 100% more expensive.Trying not to devolve into a political rant but I don't see how those idiots think tariffs change the financials. Maybe it works for industries that are at some level competitive but US PCB/PCBA manufacturing isn't even close. And don't get me started on the impact of tariffs on inflation...

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2025, 02:12:35 pm
content: Hard to imagine tariffs actually changing much regarding PCBs/PCBAs. Even with a 100% tariff, it would likely be far cheaper and easier to circumvent via shell corporations and brokers than to actually onshore anything. Just like doubling the price of gasoline or slashing speed limits wouldn't make many people take the train/metro/bus.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2025, 09:58:09 pm
content: It is not just tariffs.Restrictions on certain components will hit harder than even 100% tariff.I have seen an uptick on inquiries just because of stuff being harder to get in China.Geopolitics, increased shipping costs, less trust that your product will stay yours etc, is also not helping either.

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2025, 12:15:58 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on January 15, 2025, 09:58:09 pmAre you referring to sanctions? Yes that's certainly an entirely different issue from tariffs, but AFAIK that's been limited to parts/companies which (supposedly) support Russia's war in Ukraine. I don't think that's going to affect PCB/PCBA manufacturing though.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2025, 06:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on January 16, 2025, 12:15:58 pmThat's the immediate-term case... but there's also the non-zero chances that things escalate in Taiwan or South China Sea and go really sideways. I think there are plenty of voices of common sense who don't want that, but also plenty of hawks on both sides of those issues who seem to be almost encouraging it. Perhaps that's a level of chaos that it's not really possible to plan for, but it seems like it probably is something that is at least starting to factor into thinking around this.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2025, 10:28:31 am
content: You can always look to friendly countries like Australia for tariff free suppliers unless of course we down under are slated for unfriendly treatment ( read subject to tariffs )

author: gwideman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:18:00 am
content: If you're considering some level of in-house manufacturing, your would do well to look into what others have done and published.For example Seon "Unexpected Maker" on YouTube... who has blow-by-blow videos acquiring Pick-and-place machines and discovering their pitfalls, and setting up a complete production line.Stephen Hawes, also on YouTube has numerous videos around their production setup also.Doubtless there are others.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:39:36 am
content: Many PCB shops have setup additional factories in Thailand and Vietnam. This should allow for a bypass of the brainiac tariff scheme.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:48:10 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on January 14, 2025, 08:08:35 pmDon't worry: tariffs can be reversed instantly, on a whim. Gutting scientific services cannot. There is an explicit "flood the opposition" strategy. Politics and science/technology become intimately entwined, and cannot be separated. Grrrrr.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:51:29 pm
content: Quote from: mon2 on February 05, 2025, 11:39:36 amIt is also a standard sales feature of many big companies that primarily manufacture in China. Heller reflow ovens for example are made in China, unless you are American, then they come from Vietnam, US/China tariffs are not new and have existed in some form or another attached to some contentious piece of trade or another for years. We have the same sourcing option for a electronics module we use for a client, if they choose to extend sales to the US, there's another factory in Vietnam (or India) that will supply the module for that market.Economist will tell you a tariff is not in itself inflationary, as apparently a one off price hike doesn't count, it get built in a resettles. A trade war starting with small tit-for-tat tariff broadsides... probably is.

author: gwideman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 08:41:52 am
content: Quote from: mon2 on February 05, 2025, 11:39:36 amWould you mind mentioning a few? Thanks!

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 04:28:54 am
content: We assemble our own designs, which are low volume high value, have since the beginning.Depending on a lot, you can actually start a production line pretty cheap, under $10k USD. Of course, if you have to hire additional staff or make extensive building renovations, that adds up fast. All depends on your requirements; PCB size, component size, how much time you are willing to spend per PCB (you pay for speed, reliability, and automation).We started out on a single Charmhigh desktop PnP (gag. Their hardware is good enough, but their software is flaming hot garbage), and 2 Controleo converted toaster ovens for reflow. Actually, we opted to increase the army of Controleo ovens as they work just as well as tunnel ovens, are faster (when you consider boards/hr and how many ovens we have), and take less power than a couple tunnel ovens as they only cook when needed then shut off, instead of running nonstop all day. If you have 2 ovens per 20 amp breaker (US specs), you won't ever trip a breaker no matter how well they sync up.Because we make the same stuff over and over, we increased the # of Charmhigh machines as we grew. They work, but are finicky and need to be babysat constantly (the built in feeders SUCK). We are currently looking to build a new, upgraded production line. Still researching what option is best for us. Knock on wood, the only problems we have had with the machines (other than their shit software) is a broken pull needed and nozzles wearing out and/or getting bent. We have made some mods to make them much more reliable (simple stuff) and that has helped a bunch.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 09:23:14 am
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on February 26, 2025, 04:28:54 amI highly recommend checking out this thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/yx-smt660-smt880-pp-machines/msg3557816/#msg3557816

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 02:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: gwideman on February 06, 2025, 08:41:52 amSure.QuoteQuoteand contact Daphne Tian (Kingford PCB, CN and also their sister companies below - they are building a large complex in Thailand which may be ready now for production):Quote