EV transition in dense urban areas with public parking, a disaster in the making - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 08:23:55 am
content: Currently people buying EVs either have private parking, can charge at work, have high tolerance for inconvenience, or got suckered into it.In the supposed poster child for EVs, Norway, people mostly have private parking. So less a poster child and more an outlier compared to a lot of other European nations.Here in the Netherlands the current situation for public charging means there is a small amount of parking spaces with chargers, which in the great Dutch tradition of public/private partnerships have hard to predict cost and high fees. You increasingly get charged for leaving your car after it's charged, which is on some level understandable but on another level decreases the amount of public parking because it forces space to be empty more.All this somewhat works as long as EVs are the minority ... but trying to transition this barely thought out hodge podge of charging solutions into full EV is going to run into immense problems. Most people don't have the high tolerance for inconvenience and they will revolt at the ballot box.Any forced transition should be convenient to be politically sustainable. Either most public parking should have chargers (which is only really possible withcurb stone chargers) or the forced transition should wait till all new EVs have ultra-fast charging and the ultra-fast chargers are widespread.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 09:15:04 am
content: Quick question: how would you describe the current situation of public parking in dense urban areas?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 11:53:13 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 08, 2024, 09:15:04 amMostly okay. People in cities know they will have to adapt and eventually regulators in older villages recognize they can't just cause chaos to pester people out of their cars and fix their "for the greater good for thee, but not for me" screw ups (though there's always a new generation of supposed dogooders ready to screw with the peons by allocating too little parking, or as recently happened near here count private parking 1:1 towards the required public parking).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 12:19:52 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 08:23:55 amGood thing kerbs don't have water flowing in/over them, and fortunately rainwater doesn't have mud, sticks, leaves, etc that can be deposited into small holes.Oh.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 12:30:34 pm
content: The sockets presumably have actively pumped drainage and the covers are presumably locked when not in use.Regardless, curbstone is the only available space for sockets. If the plugs and sockets are a problem, make more robust plugs and sockets. Maybe a capacitive blade connector, open on the bottom which can just be flushed with a pressure washer occasionally. The only other alternative for curb side charging is wireless charging, lamp posts are too far apart.The problem has to be solved in a somewhat acceptable manner before the forced rollout of EVs or it will cause problems at the ballotbox.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 12:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 11:53:13 amKinda my point. People in cities are aware that owning a car is inconvenient. Poor EV charging is just another layer on top of that. In small/old villages this problem is smaller, with some people having private parking or garages and squares that could support public charging not too far and inbetween.I find it curious that a lot of technically inclined people panick about charging infrastructure. We build electricity, gas, water, sewage, TV and telephony networks for every house. These days every sidewalk is broken up roughly twice every 3 months for fibre infrastructure. But EV charging? Apparently an issue that can never be solved.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 12:40:01 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 08, 2024, 12:37:02 pmMy panic is that there are no solutions coming from government, only a recipe for disaster.It can be solved ... but they aren't solving it and the dates for the forced transitions are inching closer. They can't leave this to the private sector.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 12:50:37 pm
content: I'm not sure if I agree. Government should make sure good solutions are supported by regulations but I'm not convinced they should do (much) more...

author: unseenninja
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 01:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 08, 2024, 12:37:02 pmThe problem being that while it's simple to pull a fibre cable and terminate it at each residence, adding EV charging cables requires to have the infrastructure in place to supply large amounts of current to each charging point. When I look at the area of Stockholm where I live, it was built in the 40s with no dedicated parking places. The electricity infrastructure for the area was also built in the 40s. To add EV charging to an area like mine is much less about laying cables for charging and much more about replacing and upgrading the entire electricity distribution infrastructure first so that enough electricity is available for EV charging.That's an order of magnitude more expensive and difficult to do. It also has knock-on effects all the way up to the generation of that electricity.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 01:40:37 pm
content: So? We did that for everything I mentioned. But somehow we draw the line when it comes to continue the electrification of society?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 01:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: unseenninja on October 08, 2024, 01:27:10 pmThe cars simply will not charge at peak loads, so it's not so bad. You can also bury some batteries to carry power from day to night without increasing the worst case load on the medium voltage distribution network.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 01:52:56 pm
content: Oh nice, more of these political nutjob threads.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 02:58:37 pm
content: just string a wire between lamp posts and have a pole going up from the car to the wires,and if they put a solar cell on the top of each lamp post they would add to the available charging capacity.Were do i apply for funding now ive solved the problem?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 03:27:04 pm
content: Here in the UK there are plenty of lamppost and standalone chargers for cars parked on-street. not ebvery car need to charge all the time, and low charge rates, say 3kW are fine for overnight charging for most people.There is also probably at least some excess capacity since street lighting transitioned to LEDs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 03:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 08, 2024, 12:37:02 pmYou have to define what are cities first. In most cities most of the people live in densely populated (suburban) areas where there is place to park a car and with good roads to get in & out of the city so there is no inconvenience from owning a car at all. To add some more numbers: on average 70% of the people in the NL can't charge on their own driveway. In cities (defined as suburban areas) this is from 80% to 90%. So all these people will have to charge a BEV car from a public charger.Still, I think the whole street level public charging issue is moot as it is too costly to use / operate anyway and will be rendered unnecessary in 10 to 20 years or so due to being able to charge 400km to 1000km of range in a couple of minutes at a charging station OR run a car on hydrogen.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 03:43:09 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 08:03:18 amFound itThat is far besides the truth in Holland. We own an EV since 2019 and have driven just over 120+ km with it. In Holland you are never screwed for charging, be it destination (on-street, in public parking places, at shops like Gamma, IKEA) or along the highway. Superchargers everywhere, Fastned, Ionity and Shell all over the place. In our country charging is not a drawback for an EV driver.

author: Bryn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 03:43:53 pm
content: Here in Glasgow, promotion about electric vehicles has been a thing ever since a bunch of "green" politicians take control of its city council through a coalition, and let's also mention that it has its LEZ enforced from last year ("low emission zone" for those that don't know), and have been encouraging people to switch to them, including taxi drivers even though they don't have the money to fork out for an electric alternative.Regarding parking spaces with them, should it have so many of them whizzing around by 2029 at least, that would certainly be an issue here given that it's Scotland's largest city by population. Even at that, trying to find a parking space with a diesel-powered car is bad enough...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 03:47:24 pm
content: I need more details on the fundamental premise. The stated problem is that in dense urban areas EV owners who don't own a parking space or charging space can't access "fuel".In those same dense urban areas how do ICV owners access "fuel"? My experience has been that those areas are generally very poorly supplied with fueling opportunities. When I have visited the solution is to wait in an often lengthy line to fuel up or drive to an uncrowded fueling station in a less crowded area.So the real difference is that for those who drive to a remote location fueling is quicker for ICVs. Which may or may not remain true as higher power charging is developed and as shortages develop in the liquid fuel channels.Doesn't seem like a deal breaker, more like a brand preference.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 04:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 12:30:34 pmIn that vein, I presume pixies clean the fine mud/silt out of the locks and connectors.QuoteAnybody else see the weaknesses (plural) in those statements?QuoteWhat makes you think it can be solved?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 04:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 08, 2024, 03:27:04 pmIt is just a little more difficult than thatConsider West London... "It was reported earlier this year that new housing developments in Hounslow, Ealing and Hillingdon would have to be paused due to strain on the electricity network, with no spare capacity for new connections until at least 2035." It looks like that has been overcomepolitically. Cough.https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/west-london-electricity-shortage-housing-hounslow-ealing-hillingdon-b1031501.html

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 04:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 08, 2024, 04:30:46 pmThe little which can get in there in the couple seconds it's exposed will likely get rubbed down by the plug. The socket presumably has drain holes at the bottom of anything which can catch water. Hose it down before the plug starts bottomming out.Rheinmetall is not some sketchy renewable startup, though this is a bit different from the weapon and radar systems I usually expect from them.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 04:51:45 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 08, 2024, 04:41:38 pmHere in the Netherlands the powercompanies were allergic to even consider using grid batteries, even though it's plainly obvious they can massively expand grid capacity if large enough to redistribute a couple hours of load and can be added relatively quickly. They are slowly coming around.Expensive, but only a fraction of the cost of delaying construction for a couple years. Politicians can occasionally perceive such things better than the power companies.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 04:52:40 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 08, 2024, 03:47:24 pmGetting fuel is not a problem in the NL. Plenty of gas stations dotted around. There are at least 10 gas stations in a 5km radius around my home.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 04:57:27 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 04:46:57 pmIf water can go down a hole, floods can come up through the hole.Do you haveanytraining or experience in what is necessary to weatherproof installations?Do you haveanyexperience with the voltages used in chargers?You previously threw out a concept of a different type of connector..Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 12:30:34 pmHave you gotanynumberswhich indicate that would be electrically feasible?Design concepts are easy and cheap. Working designs are difficult and expensive.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 05:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 08, 2024, 03:43:09 pmI shop in 10 minutes, usually by bike or walking and rarely make it to the highway. There's 2 gas stations within 2 minutes of my house and zero fast chargers. Occassionally fast charging for longer trips I don't mind, but if you can't charge at home or work EVs are bloody terrible.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 05:16:41 pm
content: The real problem is that populist parties take fossil fuels for granted.Once you realise the undeniable consequences of fossil fuel use, you should only think about electric vehicles or no vehicles. People who say the governments do a "forced rollout" of EVs mostly act as if it would just be lifestyle decision and like governments would deny them to wear black shirts because they would have fun to repress your freedom. But banning fossil fuels is just a necessity like banning CFCs or leaded fuel.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 05:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 08, 2024, 04:57:27 pmRheinmetall presumably does.QuoteThe voltage is only present when the plug is fully seated. If it's not galvanically isolated there will be a ground fault interruptor, if it is it can only really have leakage current inside the plug. Rheinmetall doesn't seem to think it's a problem.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 05:22:15 pm
content: Quoteplenty of ip67 option for traditional supplies exist off the shelf,even ones that pop up from the under pavement,as used in countless market squares throught the uk

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 05:23:34 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on October 08, 2024, 05:16:41 pmWhat you are saying is to kill-off the excess people. That is not going to happen so use of fossil fuels will continue until the use of alternatives will be affordable for the masses. My estimation is that that will take at least another 30 years across Europe. And much longer on a global scale.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 05:30:45 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on October 08, 2024, 05:16:41 pmThere are still going to be elections and some politicians have no problem just running the country or world into the ground.Make it convenient for the plebs or we will all face the consequences. Even the "our hands are tied, EU is making us do it" argument can run out of steam. NOx emission, nature restoration law and migration have already caused a lot of bad blood.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 05:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 08:23:55 amNice rant but what makes you think that the "public" should be forced pay to provide parking spaces with charger stations for EVs any more than they should be required to pay for fueling stations for ICVs? It sounds to me like you're just whining that the cities aren't providing you with a free parking spot with a built-in charging station. If drivers want to drive EVs then they should figure out a way to charge them at homeorat a charging station that may not happen to be right in front of their downtown destination (and where they might have to pay for charging). If downtown businesses want to attract any kind of driver then it should be up to them to provide parking in some manner (either paid or free). If they want to attract people who only drive EVs then they may also need to be provide charging for them. But either way, I don't see that the "public" should be on the hook to provide charging stations in any shape form or fashion. I'll add that ifcitieswant to drive out the ICVs and only allow EVs into the cities then they will have have to find a way to provide anynecessaryfacilities (and that doesn't mean a free charging station at every parking spot), even if that means taxing the local citizens AND/or businesses to pay for the added infrastructure. But in an democracy they will then also have to answer to the voters.FYI, the city that I lived in as a youth thought that money from parking fees was Easy Money and they added parking meters to all of the downtown areas and the downtown businesses lost a TON of business so a few years later the city them took the parking meters out. But it was too late, ALL of the downtown businesses either went out of business or they moved out of the city limits. And today, 50 years later, there are still no large businesses in the downtown area. The city has done everything that they can to bring back businesses but they just aren't falling for it.Today with the rise of on-line shopping, work at home, and being able to transact business remotely and even to be able to see doctors remotely; the cities really need to think twice, three times and four times, before they do anything that is going to make it more difficult or more expensive foranydriver to get into or out of any city area, or they're going to soon find themselves permanently out of business. That's already happening big time in cities like San Francisco.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 06:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on October 08, 2024, 05:49:12 pmUtilitarianism. I think not doing so will have undesirable consequences.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 06:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 08, 2024, 05:22:15 pmCan you point to some that include provision for connections to be made and removed to (1) equivalent voltages (2) while submerged under water and (3) with silt/leaves/etc in/around the connector, and (4) by unskilled and/or drunk people?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 06:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on October 08, 2024, 05:49:12 pmThe same thing has happened where I live. A thriving shopping center (more like an American strip mall) in a suburb got totally destroyed by charging for parking. Even though the tariff is low, people no longer visit it. Most of the shops are gone now. Also the shops in the city center are in rapid decline.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 08:26:20 pm
content: QuoteThe only thing are relevant is 1 and 4,and there already dealt with existing ev infrastructure.As for 2 the rules already state the minimum height of ev charge sockets is 750mm so if its submerged you got bigger problems

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 08:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 08, 2024, 08:26:20 pmYou have chosen to snip the context in which I made my statement, again. That is bad practice, often used by people who wish to make straw man arguments or deflect conversations.The context is that Marco is claiming that Rheinmetall must know what it is doing, and that therefore it's in-kerb charging points are a good way forward.Obviously their height is 0mm, somewhat short of 750mm, and they make points 2 and 3veryrelevant.Thank you for providingnumericalcommon-sense about in-kerb charging points' failure modes.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 09:28:03 pm
content: I’m going to jump in, though I’m sure I will regret it. Are you aware that connectors exist for use in oil wells, full of oil, water, sand, tars and salts? That these are (obviously) blind-mating? Submerged? Can carry high currents at high voltages? Even optical fibres, if you so choose - and can pay for it. A curbside charging connector seems eminently feasible.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 09:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on October 08, 2024, 09:28:03 pmAnd none of those are type 2 IEC EV plugs? How the f*ck is that relevant? I'm all for curbside EV charging inrfa as an EV nerd, but Rheinmetall's implementation seems DOA to me.If we can't afford a little bit of investment to install proper EVSEs in light poles or dedicated curbside stations to move away from ICEs, we all deserve to die a slow climate change death..

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 09:51:45 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 08, 2024, 01:40:37 pmYou are missing the framing from the OP:"I refuse to pay to store my car along with the benefits of owning/controlling that storage environment (like being able to install a charging point)"which is twisted into fake concern:"I'm so sad that people won't be able to have EV's [while being given for free the benefits which others pay for]"

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 09:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on October 08, 2024, 05:49:12 pmCome on dude... paid parking is not the reason downtown San Francisco has declined, what a ridiculous take. There are various well documented reasons: work from home, homelessness, crime, etc.https://www.spur.org/news/2023-05-10/what-comes-next-downtown-san-franciscoParis is one of the top cities in the world and is smart enough to start charging more for parking to get the cars out:https://urban-mobility-observatory.transport.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/paris-introduces-triple-parking-fees-suvs-2024-02-12_en

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 09:57:41 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on October 08, 2024, 09:28:03 pmThe only time I 've been involved with oil wells was a consultancy study in which I recommended that they keep using hydraulic logic rather than electronics. BASEEFA regulations meant electronics didn't have a USP at the time. I did note the possibility of remote monitoring and controlIn this case there are key differences: small number of connectors w.r.t. in-kerb connectors, small number of skilled highly paid personnel vs. many monkeys, no kids with screwdrivers, no little old ladies, no yahoos, no drunks, no self-proclaimed "I know better" merchants, no rodents, etc. In short, a totally different operating environment.Imagine authorities that can't manage to keep sewers clear or remove potholes, coupled with recently re-skilled miners/steelworkers etc. Shudder!Bulgin connectors vs. Lemo connectors.So, not provably impossible, but mountains of long-term improbabilities.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 10:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 08, 2024, 08:35:37 pm~20cm above the roadbed and sewer gratings, being on the curb, so submersion is only really possible during flooding.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 11:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 10:14:15 pmNonsense:even in the Rheinmettal photos, their metal blocks reach down to the road surface, and some of the electrics will be below thatthe tops of their blocks are flush with the footway, and in the photos that looks like 10cm not 20cmmost kerbs here start as 10-15cm high, but over time are reduced as the roads are remetalledthere has been a (deplorable libertarian-inspired) fashion to reduce kerbs down to 1cm high. Ridiculous.it only needs heavy rain flowing down one side of a road for that kerb to be flooded; that happens quite frequently in my experiencesome of the flood risk maps in the UK are sufficiently detailed that you can distinguish which side of residential streets are more like to have "surface water" floods; then there are "river" floods and "sea" floodHence "flooding" is too inaccurate a term to be used in this context. (I appreciate English probably isn't your first language)

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2024, 11:39:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 08, 2024, 11:35:40 pmElectricity cables are below that even.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 06:06:50 am
content: This is when people say "yes but wireless charging is the future!" and you them have to explain that several kW of high frequency magnetic field is maybe not a good idea.But anyways, EV charging is just cables. Cables aren't difficult, we're doing cables for centuries. We will do cables for centuries.You only need like 3 kW for EV at home charging.The main issue today is that EV charge boxes are too big and require way too much electronics. This will hopefully improve.I think the most common drawback will be cable theft.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 09:34:15 am
content: In Paris many EV chg points, on posts and reserved spaces.Also lots of underground parkingj

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 09:41:19 am
content: The problem will get solved when there is a real need to solve it, not when there is a real need to worry about it.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 09:53:52 am
content: This problem will be solved by "itself" (and the masses in dense urban areas will not care whether tu buy EV or gasoline/diesel one):a) the charging will take 3-5mins at the "electron stations" (the same stations as it is today)b) the EVs will cost the same or cheaper than the gasoline/diesel ones.My guess it will come within next 30-40 years.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 09:58:44 am
content: Quote from: iMo on October 09, 2024, 09:53:52 amThe rules are designed to accomplish it a little faster and EU rules can start living a life of their own (see NOx).If there is no reasonable solution, courts will try to drive through unreasonable solutions.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 10:06:06 am
content: Quote from: iMo on October 09, 2024, 09:53:52 amProbably EV will stand for Electric Vessel by then....

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 11:25:05 am
content: Quote from: iMo on October 09, 2024, 09:53:52 amNah. in 2 Years, and the majority of new cars will be electric in Europe (50% of new cars)Now, to get all the used cars out needs 15 years, but that is not really relevant.Now concerning "dense urban areas": Cars will be slowly phased out of those zones anyway over time, with the cities reclaiming all the lost space to make for a better quality of life.The real huge problem with fossil fuels is to get rid of them in fertilizer, concrete, and steel making, etc....Land transport is a done deal.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 11:38:25 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 08, 2024, 12:37:02 pmWho is saying it can't be solved? I think most engineers think it won't be solved, because politics and NIMBY attitudes won't allow it. Also governments are not stepping up to the one area where only the government can make or break things - the charging infrastructure. Whether the actual infrastructure is public or privately owned, governments are always the key to either placing or removing road blocks for that infrastructure. The UK government, for example, seems to think that fining car makers who can't sell 22% EVs this year is a sane strategy in a country where their assistance to the rollout of charging infrastructure has been pathetic.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 12:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on October 10, 2024, 11:25:05 amThat is something only a youngandfit personcould possiblythink.If you are old or infirm or disabled - or have looked after someone like that - you would realise that statement is naive and ignorant, and/or callous.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 12:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 12:15:38 pmIndeed. Try to take a disabled / mobility impacted person to a hospital on a bike.One of the things that never stops to amaze me is that trainstations are so notoriously hard to access by car (or even a bike). Mobility needs to be combined for maximum effectiveness. Favouring one mode of transport over the other only leads to a total failure.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 12:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 12:15:38 pmThat probably depends on the urban area. In a number of large (for our country) cities in Holland for instance you'll see a movement to fewer cars and more space for pedestrians and cyclists. Forced by increased parking fees, slower speeds (30km/h) and less space for cars in general (one way roads, fewer parking places etc). Popular wisdom is that this is a leftist hobby but ongoing research shows that when this goes hand in hand with accessible public transportation and special initiatives for the disabled, more and more people see the advantages of fewer cars.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 01:43:28 pm
content: The downside is that those people get stuck in such cities. Public transport ends at the city limits and beyond that you are out of luck if you don't have your own means of transportation. One of my older family members has to rely on a shared taxi service and it sucks massively that we try very hard to avoid using it. Fortunately everyone has a car. Those special initiatives for the disabled may look great at the surface but they are pretty crappy if you need to rely on them. At some point we had to pick our family member up from the police station because the person got left at the wrong place, started wandering around and got picked up by the police. Meanwhile family christmas dinner was getting cold...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 02:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 10, 2024, 12:41:38 pmOf course; that probably goes without saying.QuotePeople muttering about "leftist conspiracies" should be ignored.Excellentpublic transport is OK for the fit and able bodied, butnotfor the elderly, infirm, disabled. Or maybe your attitude is that invalidpeople don't count and should be hidden in asylums?There arelarge parts of citiesnear me like this, some affluent, some less so, some houses, some flats, some conservation areas, some not...e like this, some affluent, some less so, some houses, some flats, some conservation areas, some not...So, what about suburban areas? Here's my local council's assessment and predictions...As you can see, the predictions for charging points 2030 arepopulated areas: a significant shortfall, principally urban and suburban but also rural areas. N.B. those area are not the densely populated city areas I have previously used as illustrations; these areas are easiersparsely populated areas: a moderate shortfall(pale yellow areas), principally low-lying farmland with lots of drainage ditchesThat' s not a surprise, and I expect it to be mirrored across the country.The council favours funding public charging points by a concession model, presumably since there would be no capital outlay. There is no indication of the feasibility nor any commercial terms.On-street charging will be required, and they have an objective to investigate the technology.Translation: don't know cost and feasibility.FFI read the full reporthttps://n-somerset.inconsult.uk/gf2.ti/-/1473250/159997125.1/PDF/-/NSC%20Formatted%20EV%20Strategy%20Exec%20Summary%20Numbered.pdfIf you have solid workable solutions to those points, you will become as rich as Croesus! I hope youdobecome as rich as Croesus

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 02:24:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 10, 2024, 01:43:28 pmGood luck finding a taxi that can contain a typical electric buggy suitable for use out of cities.Good luck trying to find a taxi driver that will load a buggy into their taxiIn my experience any such initiatives areverypatchy, and you can't rely on them being present and functional.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5dqxzggleoBaronessTanni Grey-Thompson was forced to "crawl off" an LNER train arriving at London's King's Cross.https://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/24111392.station-staff-laugh-disabled-woman-crawled-steps/Station staff laugh at disabled woman who crawled up steps (lift was out of service)https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-bbc-star-forced-crawl-33789847[Disabled in a terrorist attack person] forced to crawl to toilet [on aircraft] as Polish airline doesn't have wheelchairs

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 04:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 02:13:56 pmI think that was quite uncalled for, but have it your way.Over here we have excellent transportation possibilities (https://www.vitamobiliteit.nl/) for people not able to use public transport, whether they are disabled, wheelchair bound, old, no longer allowed to drive or what not. Cheap, mostly paid for by tax if you need it. They take not only wheelchairs but complete "scootmobiels" (scooters?). There are options for local visits (friends, hospitals) but you can also use them for door-to-door transportation when you want to visit a friend on the other side of the country.Oh, and that city of yours does not look like it is very disabled-friendly. Or child-friendly. Or pedestrian-friendly. Maybe the local attitude is that people don't really count and the sidewalkis for cars?Anyways, I'm off to dinner.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 04:33:59 pm
content: Do you have hands-on experience using it? The taxi service I wrote about earlier offers the exact same services & promises but the reality is not as bright as they make it appear on their website. I get a strong feeling these services basically outsource to local taxi companies and see who has room to transport people. Over longer distances (say 40 to 50 km) they can take quite a long detour already. And planning is rather 'flexible'. When we order such a taxi for the family member I mentioned before, we typically plan for the person to arrive 45 minutes to an hour early to accomodate for unforeseen delays. So what typically is a 45 minute drive by car now becomes a 2 to 3 hour long adventure. Public transport would take the same amount of time (2.5 hours) BTW. Heck, using an electric bike would be faster.And this circles back to having a car makes you much more mobile even if you live in a big city so banning cars from cities is not the answer as this will limit people (and thus force people away who do want/need the mobility). And for sure a bike is much more efficient for short rides (say up to 10km one way). The Netherlands always had a good biking infrastructure in general but during my travels through France over the past decade I have noticed a large increase in cycling lanes which I think is a good thing. OTOH the UK seems to have quite a bit of catching up to do. I investigated going cycling in the UK for a holiday but due to the lack of dedicated cycling paths/roads I let that plan go.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 06:29:33 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 10, 2024, 04:17:29 pmPossibly but I'm fed up to the back teeth with people whopresume other localities are like their owndon't think of less fortunate peoplenaively believe politicians' statements and corporate publicity handoutsthink history is anything beforethismillenniaSee nctnnico's comment.QuoteIt isn'tacity, and it isn'tmycity.Those cities (plural) have both been around for a few millennia, and were rapidly expanding when the only road vehicles were powered by muscles (i.e. horses).Many of our cities are like that.Even modern suburbs aren't immune to history. The shape of this housing estate were defined in 1847, and 1538.https://youtu.be/KjoTkX_H5W4?t=175(I remember that TV programme being broadcast; those bits are a 10 minute walk from my school.)

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 07:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 12:15:38 pmYet, city car traffic in reality is 95% young and fit people commuting in their cars. City design which relies less on cars benefits those who need to use cars the most. But yeah, there is no room for extremism/fanaticism here. Golden middle road works the best. The biggest issue is separation of living areas / work areas / recreational/shopping areas requiring use of cars, which requires more room for streets and parking, which increases separation etc. etc. But this is not completely solvable problem either so cars will be needed anyway. But some regulation is needed, otherwise the positive feedback mechanism makes cities quite crappy to live in.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 08:19:08 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 10, 2024, 07:04:35 pmMaybe, but they could use alternative means of transport.Elderly/infirm couldn't: they have to use cars. I know, based on my mother's experience: during the last 15 years of her life (85-100!) she continually wanted to use public transport so she could be independent. Given how tottery she was (Zimmer frame in the house, 4 story stairlift, buggy outside), public transport was infeasible.QuoteThe separation of areas is an interesting topic: what is the right granularity?The local (green) city council wants to bar cars from the city centre, which would make it a no-go area for people like my mother. The greens refuse to engage with the "awkward questions".The city centre is where interesting things are, so being excluded would significantly reduce their quality of life.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 08:30:12 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 10, 2024, 07:04:35 pmIn which city is 95% of the traffic young? People of all ages are driving, in fairly equal numbers. In many places the unfit get special benefits to enable them to drive adapted cars. So, they aren't even all fit. Our car parks now have substantial areas of larger spaces for people who are unfit, where you need a sticker to park.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 09:11:58 pm
content: QuoteJust like the councils avoid the issue of how the car less are meant to get to the out of town shopping sprawls

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 09:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 02:13:56 pmIn other places people with mobility issues have mobility aids such as walkers or electric wheelchairs use the footpath/active-travel pathways to get to-from their destinations, mixing in accessible public transport.So if people with mobility issues are such a concern to you, perhaps you should be suggesting turning more car parking spaces into "disabled" restricted parking zones? Allocating fixed parking spots for the people who need them right outside their houses?No... you'll use them as a misdirection/dogwhistle to argue for unabated car brain for all.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 09:47:41 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 08:19:08 pmNonspecific hyperbole, unless you want to produce some links to evidence of that. Pretty much all such schemes include retaining access & parking for deliveries and people with a genuine need for motorised transport.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 10:05:45 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 10, 2024, 09:47:41 pmYou really are the most annoying person. People regularly tell you about their local conditions and you basically call them liars.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 11:03:11 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 10, 2024, 09:47:41 pmIgnorant twit. There's no other way to put it. It looks like coppice has a similar opinion of you.They are planning on demolishingtwocity centre multi-storey car parks, and turning them into flats.https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/galleries-demolition-plan-heralds-new-9297371https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-65265542And as for general access for the disabled...https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/labour-councillor-accuses-greens-planning-9563780https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/features/can-bristol-urban-plan-its-way-to-accessibility/https://wecil.org.uk/pedestrianisation-plan-risks-excluding-disabled-people-from-bristol-city-centre/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 11:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2024, 10:05:45 pmSuch ignoramuses' arguments represent the kind of "discourse" seen on Farcebook and Twatter.I hope it doesn't become normalised on this forum.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 11:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 11:03:11 pmSo you're quoting a bunch of political "questioning" that the scheme might in some theoretical embodiment perhaps reduce access for people with mobility issues. Exactly the hyperbole that I suggested.One of the articles points out that such (unfounded) fears of exclusion/discrimination from emissions restrictions were avoided:https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/streets-travel/bristols-caz/exemptions/clean-air-zone-and-blue-badge-holdersIf there was such a plan to exclude or eliminate accessibility it would be rightly exposed and discussed. But you're just pointing to the noise around the issue and no evidence of actual plans or implemented restrictions or harm. Misdirection from the actual issues.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 11:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 11:03:11 pmInteresting idea. The city centre is congested and polluted so they want to house more people there? Turn the place into Hong Kong, with dense housing AND first rate public transport and it might work. In the UK its just asking for more trouble.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 11:29:42 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2024, 11:24:12 pmUnfortunately Bristol is already one of the most congested cities, as measured by the transit time.FirstBus/Stagecoach runs the busses, so no hope there. Unsurprisingly many people want other providers, and some spring up - but StageCoach has a long and inglorious history of extremely predatory behaviour.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:23:03 am
content: Public transport is for the poor, those without driver's license and occasionally leisure.Anyone here denying it drives or drove a car to work. Public transport is best appreciated from the road behind a wheel.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:23:44 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 10, 2024, 11:18:13 pmYou continue toconfidentlymakefalse assertionsabout topics you cannot reasonably be expected to know about (your Australian flag implies 10,000 miles distant). That practice is associated with paid shills (often with disguised payments), "social" media conspiracy theories, trolls, and the Dunning-Kruger syndrome. I see no reason to believe you are the first two of those.What you don't understand is that some of thishas already happenedin the last few years, and central government pressures are such that the others will almost certainly happen in the next few years. For the current state, seehttps://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/planning-and-building-regulations/planning-applicationsThe Galleries is already mostly empty, in preparation for demolition.The Rupert St car park surprises and irritates me, but considering other things that have happened and the political drive for housing, it isveryplausible.My mother liked to go to the quirky stalls (food and otherwise) in St Nicks market. I used to drive her there and park 10 yards away. Now road changes mean that the nearest parking place is ~1000 yards, away and across uneven/broken/patched (with lumpy tarmac!) paving stones and cobbled streets. That is impossible for her to manage; she is denied access to St Nick Market.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:25:48 am
content: Quote from: Marco on October 11, 2024, 10:23:03 amI don't know who you are responding to; hint: use the quote button!In some countries, public transport can be very good and very usable.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:29:13 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 11, 2024, 10:25:48 amDo you drive a car to work/client?I was merely making an observation. Even in Japan, in cities, over half of people still commute by car. The downsides of public transport are almost impossible to overcome without just beating down the peons Singapore style.Maybe some hypothetical personal rapid transport could compete, but mass public transport will always be a PITA if you don't have a lot of time to waste.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 11:10:41 am
content: Quote from: Marco on October 11, 2024, 10:29:13 amI'm retired, but I have used public transport to commute. I found it more civilised than driving: I could sleep or read something.Most people travelling to central London (for work or pleasure) use public transport. Taking a car into central London has long been a excercise in futility due to cost and lack of parking spaces. Besides, public transport isfasterend-to-end!The key issue with public transport is being able to reliabily turn up at a station/stop, and not have to wait more than 15 mins - either because of a reliable timetable or because of frequency of service.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 12:23:11 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 11, 2024, 10:23:03 amClearly anyone who is broke does not have the option of using a personal car unless they are in a special category. Like a broke disabled person, who gets a free car from some government scheme. You can't extrapolate from there to public transport is for the poor. In places like Hong Kong, Singapore, and, I'm told, parts of New York, public transport is the choice of most people, rich and poor. The wealthier supplement public transport in those places with taxi rides, which are a kind of semi-public transport, but the core of their transportation is buses and metro rides. If you don't appreciate that I guess you need to get out more, and see that not every place has the same dynamics as the one you live in.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 12:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 11, 2024, 10:29:13 amHow exactly are the people of Singapore beaten down? They have a really effective public transport system. They do put massive taxes on car ownership, but that helps keep the number of cars low enough for the public transport to flow well. Things work in Singapore. Getting around is quick and easy. No messing around finding a car park spot, or paying parking fees. People in Singapore don't want a car for personal transport. If they have money, using taxis is a better choice. People get cars either for status, explaining the disproportionate number of luxury cars, or for business, to take clients around. Hong Kong is not a lot different. Mass car ownership requires sprawling cities, so that 12% to 25% of the space can be assigned to roads. Singapore and Hong Kong are example of more 3D cities working well for people.Quote from: Marco on October 11, 2024, 10:29:13 amYou need to get out more. Just because you have never seen something work well doesn't mean it can't.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 01:27:31 pm
content: Lets see what google saysReddithas to say on why people desire cars in Singapore.Top rated answer from a poster whose name I won't attribute for reasons :QuoteLauding not having a car is as always easiest done behind the wheel of a car.It's far better to not let cities get too large (by centrally managing the distribution of large employers) than pestering people into the pod, owning nothing and telling them to be happy. The freedom and free time gained by private transport is immense.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 01:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 11, 2024, 01:27:31 pmYou are projecting again. I laud not having a car in a place like Hong Kong or Singapore from the position of having a car for half my adult life in the UK, and half my adult life living without a car in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong I just never wanted a car. They are time consuming, inconvenient and just pointless. In the UK they are a necessity for convenient living because the UK has developed to make life without a car suck.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 01:37:23 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 11, 2024, 01:33:29 pmIt is amazing how narrow-minded and unimaginative some people can be. Especially those that have A Cause.BTW, add London to Hong Kong in that respect

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 01:39:22 pm
content: No I'm appealing to the authority of a top rated Reddit post on a subreddit with Singaporeans. Who by accident also repeated some talking points such as transporting older family members.The half of your life spend with cars was the one with more responsibility for others.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 01:55:53 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 11, 2024, 01:37:23 pmCities I note neither of you live in any more.Public transport isn't worse outside of the most dense cities because of ill will, but because they function even worse and are even more expensive without that density. A level of density most people don't desire.That "sprawl" which supposedly necessitates cars als creates the living space most people prefer. A preference more comfortably denied behind the wheel of a car outside London.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 02:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 11, 2024, 01:37:23 pmLondon is nothing like Hong Kong. I lived in London before I moved to Hong Kong. London Transport or Transport for London is a national disgrace. People only use it out of desperation, because driving in London is so utterly messed. In Hong Kong people generally like the public transport, especially the Mass Transmit Railway network.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 02:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 11, 2024, 02:19:18 pmI'm not in a position to argue, but you make a different point.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 05:16:02 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2024, 08:30:12 pmRead the context, not take everything too literally and then nitpick. My comment was response to the comment that private cars are neededbecause people are physically not capable of usinganyother mean of transport. And I'm quite confidentthatpart is like 5%. Rest 95% are young and fitenough(many 80yo are just fine) to use some other mean,if it is available and decent. The fact that physically capable people "have" to use private cars so much is a sign of poor city design.In this context it is utterly irrelevant if average commuter age is 20, 30 or 50.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:06:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 11, 2024, 10:23:44 amRemoving carparks does not make the area "a no-go area for people like my mother".You start with a sensational claim and cannot back it up with an explanation or evidence of how such an extreme thing will occur. If the area will be so impossible to navigate/move around then what is causing that? Show the map where there will be zero accessible parking or pickup/drop-off or taxi or accessible bus within 1000 yards of some specific point. That claim is implausible and sounds like a wild misrepresentation. If such an extreme plan is in place then why can't it be seen for others to consider? why is your interpretation (I claim flawed/distorted/misleading/lies) the only evidence we should need?Smells like the usual outrage which gets kicked up any time some reduction of public motoring is suggested. My favourite: "but how will the emergency vehicles get there".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:41:19 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 11, 2024, 09:06:49 pmExcellent: please describe my mother's frailties. Start with what you would expect for a 95-100yo.If you can't then you are simply a bloviating troll.QuoteCentral Bristol: look and see.Busses are impossible; she wants to but everybody who knows her (i.e not you) goes "noooooo - you will go flying".Taxis won't take her buggy.Private car is the only option, but that's banned.QuoteYou lack enough imagination to understand what you don't know. That's the principal characteristic of Dunning-Kruger Syndrome (or trolls). I suggest you go and help in an old people's home, to see what old people can't do.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 11, 2024, 09:41:19 pmYou chose that example, its on you to explain it. Your mother could be anything from an international cross country running athlete to a bed ridden quadriplegic, you haven't said. You could have explained this but you choose not to for some reason.Is it really that hard to say something along the lines of "as an example my  uses a walking frame to get around and the [public transport mode] doesn't have flat access so they can't use it".That something is less convenient does not make it banned/impossible.Quote from: tggzzz on October 11, 2024, 09:41:19 pmIts that last line. Show us the banning of private cars.Reduction in parking is not a banning of cars. So far we have evidence of reducing parking. You claim banning of private cars. So please explain and show the scope of where they are banned, not some (possibly edge case) 1000 yards from non-specific location, with no evidence of such.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:02:13 pm
content: How is reducing the amount of parking space different from banning cars?Today I had to visit a customer in the center of Amsterdam. A city which has become notorious where it comes to banning cars. No parking garage nearby although their office is located near a museum (which I guess should have parking facilities for their visitors but appearantly not). Fortunately they have a limited number of parking spaces but once those are full, you are screwed. Street level parking is limited to two hours since a couple of years so you have to hurry through a meeting. Another customer of mine moved away from Amsterdam for the simple reason it was no longer workable to have clients and suppliers over for meetings due to lack of parking space.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:10:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 11, 2024, 10:02:13 pmIt is wildly different, cars are not banned just because there is a reduction in parking. Their use is just less convenient (contention for the limited resource). Activities which actually require a private motor vehicle continue on, usually with dedicated parking/permits.Quote from: nctnico on October 11, 2024, 10:02:13 pmIf you find driving to a location to be difficult/annoying then that was the point, rather than banning outright it was softly made less desirable. People who truely have no choice of alternative are accounted for with access to permits by need.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:18:16 pm
content: Limiting parking is analogous to increasing alcohol taxes to discourage consumption, instead of prohibition.(Compare Sweden and Norway to Germany.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:28:12 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 11, 2024, 09:52:49 pmYoumade the assertion that it wouldn't affect my mother: justify that.I have given made statements about her frailty earlier in the thread.What would a reasonable person expect of a 95-100yo?She is merely one datapoint; there are many others with slightly different conditions.QuoteI was going to show you the gurgle street view for the entry signs. Unfortunately the latest pictures show the road dug up to install the barriers. I wonder if gurgle cars will be able to go past them in the future?In lieu of that, seehttps://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/streets-travel/pedestrianisation-of-the-old-cityand pleasepleasetry to read and understand thecumulativeeffect ofallthe conditions. I know it will be difficult for you, but it would make you look less ignorant.For example...QuoteObviously I can't simply "unload her" or "deliver her". I need to accompany her.QuoteSo she can't eat lunch there. Yes, I know it is stupid.There are serious plans to extend the area.N.B., allegedly the city has made alotof money from people who ignored or didn't understand the rules.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:47:44 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 11, 2024, 10:28:12 pmTook you some time to be specific about the area and the conditions.[big image attached below]Note all the permit parking for people who have a genuine need. If your mother has mobility issues that require a private car as you claim, then go ahead and get that formally recognised so you both can access the infrastructure for that purpose. Not banned, not excluded. Your selective quotes mislead a reader, as you fail to mention the allocated parking spaces which are available all the time to permit holders, in addition to the limited informal parking you take as (your only) example.There is indeed further pedestrianisation proposed:https://travelwest.info/projects/bristol-city-centre-transport-changes/But that is over a maximum distance of 350m, and it is proposed that the number of mobility permit holder parking is maintained (though relocated).As I said from the start, your claim of complete banning and no access:Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2024, 08:19:08 pmIs an overreaction and misrepresentation of a council pedestrianising a few hundred meters of roadway and limiting private vehicle use to some others. While retaining access for private motor vehicles to the city centre, with specific additional access for people with a legitimateneed(as opposed to awant/convenience).

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 04:41:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 11, 2024, 10:02:13 pmA good compromise is to have parking space a bit further away. Actually, the US is where it really needs to be done, having to walk more will help reduce obesity rates that are still out of control.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 09:41:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 11, 2024, 10:02:13 pmI am an ex-Amsterdammer who now lives 60k from that city but still have friends and clients there. Same thing goes for my wife. So this is a locality that I might be allowed to have an opinion on. We manage to get to where we need to be without many problems. Sometimes use a car right to the front door, which is always expensive and time consuming. Other times we park in a P+R site on the outskirts and travel in and out of the center for a limited fee. Alternatively we drive to Alkmaar and take a train straight into the city center. We always get there.Is it easier to get into my car at home and park it in front of my client next to a charging point (to keep this a bit OT) in the center of Amsterdam 55 minutes later? Absolutely. But is it realistic to expect that at the same time tens of thousands of people like me get into their cars in front of their doors and drive to Amsterdam in a reasonable time while being able to park cheaply and close to their destination? I don't think so.Amsterdam is IMO a perfect example of an old city with small streets, crammed full of cars day and night, that will greatly benefit as a place to live and work if cars are pushed way back. And yes, companies that make or shift stuff will move out. OTOH, companies that make or shift ideas might like having their businesses in an a clean, livable city and move in. It will certainly mean that we have to adapt to new ways to getting to and around in the city. Something we humans have a hard time with.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 10:41:36 am
content: Then again, other old cities have managed to take cars away from the street level by having tunnels, streamlining traffic flows and huge underground parking garages. Having tunnels and underground garages are very effective to get rid of cars at the street level and create large pedestrian areas. If you look at Nantes for example, you'll see that the city center is car free with having several large parking garages dotted around it.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 11:08:32 am
content: Going underground might be a good solution for some cities, but if I recall how much money, time and sweat (over damaged buildings at street level) was sunk into one 7k long tunnel in the flaccid clay for the north-south tube line I think that driving / parking underground will lead to tariffs that make the current €8,- an hour look like small change.And yes, parking outside the city and use public transport to get around is a great solution. One that is available at ten locations in Amsterdam.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 11:26:57 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 11, 2024, 10:47:44 pmSigh.You have spottedonecar restriction plan in Bristol. There are many others, some of which have already been implemented.You may think you understand the situation on the ground, but actually you don't. You really don't.You continually dodge questions that would reveal your ignorance; no surprise there, unfortunately.Anyway, I've spent enough time on your idealistic fantasies, nonsense contentions, and complete ignorance of some realities.Coppice was spot-on when he wrote (of you) "You really are the most annoying person. People regularly tell you about their local conditions and you basically call them liars."https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/ev-transition-in-dense-urban-areas-with-public-parking-a-disaster-in-the-making/msg5673633/#msg5673633

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 12:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 12, 2024, 11:08:32 amThat is just one tunnel which was likely mismanaged and given to an uncapable contractor who offered to do the job 'cheap'. There are many more subway tunnels in Amsterdam which didn't had these problems when constructed. Not putting the cars underground when the subway was constructed was a lack of vision. And may I remind you that in recent years part of the highway around Amsterdam has been put in a tunnel; so it is doable.

author: iJoseph2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 02:02:43 pm
content: I think the battery powered EV is a dead end.Whatever becomes the norm for commercial aircraft will make its way to ground vehicles and then all of this becomes moot.(I hope this doesn't come across as controversial)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 08:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: iJoseph2 on October 12, 2024, 02:02:43 pmDo you mean turboprop or fanjet?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 08:38:04 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 12, 2024, 08:32:56 pmI think he means hydrogen. Low pressure, room temperature hydrogen, in large chambers.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 08:59:15 pm
content: I remember an article about design concepts for hydrogen powered aircraft in Flight International. That must have been in the early70s!Remember that the energy in liquid fuels is contained in hydrogen bonds; breaking the bonds releases the energy. Then remember there are far more hydrogen bonds in a litre of avgas than there are in a litre of liquid hydrogen.Consequently the diagrams that remain in my mind are those of an airliner that has the profile reminiscent of a Super Guppy

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 10:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2024, 08:59:15 pmProbably, but that litre of hydrogen weighs about 6 times less. Per unit of mass, hydrogen has 3 times more energy compared to hydrocarbon fuels. I never had airline operators complain about the volume of my suitcase(s), only about the weight.Still, I don't see the relevance of aviation where it comes to cars. For sure one type of infrastructure is cheaper compared to two but since aviation is typically concentrated on a limited number of places (airfields) I don't see how that would map on cars & trucks / lorries which are finely distributed across land.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 10:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2024, 10:06:39 pmYou've clearly never flown with Cryanair, Easyjet etc. Have a look at any of their baggage restrictions, and you'll see the error.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 10:53:44 pm
content: I only fly with real airlines which use real planes landing on real airports. Otherwise you spend more time & money on getting where you are compared to the slightly cheaper ticket.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 11:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2024, 10:53:44 pmOooh. Aren't you superior. And wrong.I'll use whatever airline is going where I want. The last holiday I used remote airports that wereexactlywhere I wanted them to be: Zagreb and Split, closer than LHR is to London. Cryanair and Easyjet.So, what is the volumetric efficiency of hydrogen? Difficult to be specific since there is a wide range of compression possible.The best I can find instantly is from the estimable "Without Hot Air",https://withouthotair.com/c26/page_199.shtml"Taking into account the weight of a cryogenic tank for holding hydrogen, the energy density of hydrogen is reduced from 39 000Wh/kg to roughly 2400 Wh/kg."and table 26.14(a).It would be useful if you could locate more directly relevant information.Time for bed

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 07:26:32 am
content: Lightweight cryogenic hydrogen storage is fairly proven by the Apollo-missions. The second stage of the Saturn-5 was completely fuelled by H2 and O2 - just because it has the best available energy density per weight.In general a turbine engine like in a plane can perfectly run on H2. And for the H2-storage inside the plane you don't need supergood thermal isolation because a lot of the fuel is taken for consumption, so some boil-off doesn't matter. For a commercial plane it seems organisationally possible to always fuel it a few hours before departure, there you don't need the luxury of having a full gas tank waiting in the garage.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 11:29:46 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on October 13, 2024, 07:26:32 amJust so. I imagine (but cannot remember) that was behind the concept drawings in Flight International.QuoteThere are many many videos clearly indicating why liquid hydrogen is a technology that requires a very high level of care and attention to detail - and preferably distance from peopleCan you imagine what would happen to a whole neighbourhood when a plane lands without its undercarriage? Or when a turbine blade pierces a fuel tank/pipe?Can you imagine Boeing fitters using improper greases (etc) or not using the right grade of metal, so that "hydrogen embrittlement" becomes a practical "issue"?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 11:40:10 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on October 13, 2024, 07:26:32 amYou aren't comparing apples to apples, because of the time issue. Apollo fueled up, and got through that fuel really quickly, before it warmed up too much. Space craft have a problem with cryogenic liquids when they need to store fuel for later burns. SpaceX's Starship still doesn't seem to have a solution for managing this on voyages, even though their design appears to be in its final stages. An aircraft needs to fly for many hours, assuming planes don't go hypersonic. 17 and 18 hour flights are now pretty normal for intercontinental flights, and even a holiday flight can be 3 or 4 hours. A lot of low pressure liquid hydrogen will vent in that time. Even managing the venting while in the airport would be an issue. A LOT of precautions are taken with the venting during liquid fueled rocket launches that would not be practical in an airport. The stuff I have seen about powering aircraft with hydrogen seems to be based on pressure vessels, and room temperature hydrogen. Such vessels are big and/or heavy. Look at the ones Toyota put in hydrogen cars.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 11:54:43 am
content: BMW already used cryogenic hydrogen storage for pre-series test vehicles. Technically it can work and it seemed to have been safe, it´s just crazily expensive.For aircrafts the biggest issue is to get things safe and approved. For this reason AFAIK no one expects hydrogen fuelled planes in the near future. But in general, using hydrogen for air traffic would be more an engineering problem than a general blocking point like you see many for other alternative propulsion systems.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 12:03:11 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on October 13, 2024, 11:54:43 amBMW have been playing around with hydrogen storage in cars since the 1980s, with demonstrator cars using their prototype solutions. The ones I remember were based on the BMW 7 of the time. Presumably they wanted the most space they could get for the hydrogen kit.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 12:43:24 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on October 13, 2024, 11:54:43 amToyota invested heavily in hydrogen cars, betting on that rather than "conventional" EVs. ISTR reading they have had to backtrack that decision.Unlike some of the other proposals, many of the problems with hydrogen are in thedetails. That does not mean they are not cumulatively significant.One particular problem is "people", as Boeing have found out. The modern version of an old saying is "If its Boeing Iain'tgoing"

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 01:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 08, 2024, 08:23:55 amI wanted to start my reply with something like "Theproblem is..." but the problem is... well, if only there were only one problem... where do we start?The sole concept of individual cars is flawed and part of what drives us (Humans) into the wall. Switching EVs for as many fossil-fueled cars is not going to solve anything, quite the contrary."Thanks" to machines, resource depletion and exponential exploitation of Earth resources has been taking place (for about 200 years since industrial revolutions) at a rate that is no longer sustainable — even if industries recycled 100% of what they produce. Growth, not to mention exponential as deeply rooted in how humans have been functioning for a while now, is one of the illusions that must be destroyed otherwise life itself will be. Humans are currently exploiting resources at a rate that the Earth is no longer capable of renewing.Survival (not only for humans) is a matter of accepting to share resources and go on a global diet, especially as far as our voracity on energy is concerned. Human civilisation has gone past six of the nine planetary limits, the next one most probably being acidification of the oceans. We're in the red almost everywhere and yet we still hope tomorrow will be like yesterday... Disasters are already happening, they're just being ignored. Or worst: taken/promoted as events to adapt to...Another glaring issue is the way humans are tackling it all gives the other illusion it's all technological problems. We're not facing problems technology alone will solve; it won't. It **is** part of these problems.Really, that EV part is only the tip of the straw planted on the emerged part of the iceberg.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 02:16:26 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2024, 12:43:24 pmWell, hybrids turned out to be a really good choice. Toyota is among the few (or maybe the only) car manufacturer who doesn't need to sell BEVs in order to make EU CO2 emission quotas due to focussing on hybrids early on. So the fact Toyota choose hydrogen over BEV is something everyone should take notice of as Toyota has a pretty good track record where it comes to making cars people buy and keep buying.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 02:22:10 pm
content: Quote from: VinzC on October 13, 2024, 01:19:46 pmThe EV transition an sich I don't care too much about, it not causing massive political upheaval is what I care about. The Davos/WEF fantasy of guiding the plebs into some ultra low consumption lifestyle while slightly well intentioned is completely unrealistic (it's mixed up with rationalization of why they deserve to be neofeudal rulers, so not that well intentioned).For technologically advanced civilization to survive, it first needs to survive another day.

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 02:38:31 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 13, 2024, 02:22:10 pmWell, looks to me like it's massively compromised

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 03:19:05 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 13, 2024, 02:22:10 pmI agree. Affordability is a large factor. Most visitors of this forum likely have well paying engineering jobs so they don't have to care much about cost of transport and energy. But there is a whole lot of people out there doing low paid jobs like policing, medical nursing, cleaning, make the trains & busses run, cashiers & restocking grocery stores, transportation, taking the garbage away, etc, etc. All in all, the jobs that make a country a nice place to live in. But those people get hit the hardest when mobility costs rise. That is something to keep in mind before forcing BEVs onto everyone. BTW, currently BEV sales seem to stagnate (or even drop) in Europe due to subsidies being stopped or reduced while there is a significant increase in sales of (plugin) hybrids.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 03:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2024, 02:16:26 pmI drive a 20yo Toyota Yaris Verso. At the recent annual tests all the emissions were still well below statutory limits.I'm not looking forward to having to find another car. Finding another car with a flat bed boot and where I can make the back seats disappear under the front seat within 30s, is not going to be trivial.Then there's the issue of all of the crap I'm going to have to learn how to live with/avoid. Lights that flash in my peripheral vision while all my attention must be focussed on what's in front of me. Having to store keys in Faraday cages to prevent replay attacks or similar. Ensuring I can use the car without a cellphone. How to play my music in the order in which I want it played. Being able to change ventilation without having to take my eyes off the road. Etc, etc, etc.

author: iJoseph2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 04:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 12, 2024, 08:38:04 pmYup.. that is what I was thinking.The other thing I thought of was this .. with all the push for AI and autonomous vehicles etc and the fact that manufacturers don't want you to own anything any more maybe the future is rent per mile.. although I admit this sounds more like a taxi. You call a vehicle to pick you up and drop you off and it goes and lives in a large car park charging its batteries, but vehicles all move around fully automatically.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 06:28:38 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2024, 11:05:52 pmThat is assuming a cryogenic tank for liquid hydrogen. But it makes no sense to store hydrogen in liquid form. The Toyota Mirai carries 5kg to 6kg of hydrogen at 700 bar which is enough for around 500km of range. And Toyota did over-engineer the tanks to a level where they are litterally bullet proof. For a more practical car, the tanks only need to rupture in a controlled way which would probably make them much lighter compared to the tanks Toyoya is using. People keep thinking hydrogen explodes at the blink of an eye but you can release 5kg of hydrogen in a standard shipping container (33m^3) without ending up with an explosive mixture (and maybe you can't even get it ignited because the mixture is too lean).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 06:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 06:28:38 pmAccording to Wikipedia, that rock solid source of all the world's information, which I guess in this case is probably accurate:The Mirai hydrogen tank holds 5 kilos of hydrogen, and weighs 87.5 kilos. Its is 122 litres. The car's range is 400 miles, so pretty much like an ICE car with a tank half that size, and a similar weight, when you add a metal tank to the gasoline's weight.I'm not sure if that 87.5 kilos includes the 5 kilos of hydrogen. Either way, if the energy density of hydrogen is 39 000Wh/kg, the overall density with its tank is about 2230Wh/kg. Surprisingly close to the figure in Without The Hot Air for a cryogenic storage solution.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 06:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2024, 03:28:17 pmI used similar excuses driving a 25 year old car (Toyota, too), but now after a year of a modern car (yes, EV) there is no going back. Most of these excuses are either made-up, exaggerated or apply to only some specific makes and models of modern cars. While poor implementations of "keyless go" has temporarily increased car thefts, it is still at much lower level than say 30 years ago in "good old days" when you could steal nearly any car with a screwdriver within minutes.I especially love how much easier a modern car (EV specifically) is in winter, because I can remotely set it to warm up and melt the ice while I sip coffee, and I don't need to listen to the engine and smell the crap coming out of the tailpipe.Thanks to adaptive cruise control, my attention is in front of me 99.9% of the time (used to be less than that thanks to speedometer-obsessive culture and legislation). Stuff like dead zone radars help further with safety.And listening to music is easier than ever, because the car audio just connects to the smart phone wirelessly and automagically, you can just keep whatever music player app (including every internet radio in existence) running on your phone.I have absolutely nothing to complain with a modern car. Basically every argument I had against them ended up being either totally wrong or an exaggeration. But then again, poorly designed cars have always existed and I'm sure they still do.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 06:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 15, 2024, 06:53:20 pmFor day to day operation a modern car is great. Most of the automation is a real boon. The problems come as the warranty expires, as they've packaged most of the new technology in ways that make repairs eye watering.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 07:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 06:28:38 pmThat conversation was about aircraft, not cars. Especially for aircraft the weight-volume tradeoff is somewhat important.Table 26.14a lists MJ/l but only for liquids, not H2 gas. Not surprising since the compression pressure can be varied widely.So, to get back to aircraft, what volumetric energy density do you propose, and how does that compare with kerosene? Remember I noted there are more hydrogen bonds in a litre of kerosene than a litre of liquid H2, and you disputed that was relevant.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 07:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 15, 2024, 07:48:23 pmI'm not an aircraft designer. There is an economic optimum between volume, pressure and weight of the tanks which will drive the design of a hydrogen powered airplane. Something to consider is whether hydrogen powered airplanes use propellors or jet engines or a combination of both. Range is also a consideration. For short flights some airlines still use propellor airplanes nowadays.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 07:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 15, 2024, 07:48:23 pmWhen comparing hydrogen and kerosene in airborne applications note that the weight of the hydrogen solution will barely change during the flight, as the actual hydrogen is a small part of the total. Current aircraft can't land with full tanks. They have to circle, dumping fuel through wing tip vents, if a serious problem is discovered just after take off, and they need to return. An aircraft that suffers only a reasonable level of stress landing with its full take off weight would need to be engineered a lot more robustly, which means more weight, which means more problems.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 08:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 15, 2024, 06:58:14 pmFor some modern cars repairs can be insanely costly indeed. From what I've read, LED headlamps can be super expensive as half the front of the car needs to be taken apart on top of the lamp units themselves being super pricey. A generic problem with modern cars is that they are designed to operate trouble free for the first 5 years or so to survive the lease period without much costs and then the trouble starts. So as a buyer of a used car, it is super important to investigate the common problems and -more importantly- how much it costs to fix the problems. This can be quite a bit of work! All in all a car which has some problems can still be cheaper to buy & run compared to a more expensive car with less but (potentially) more costly problems.And for sure modern cars have nice features like rear view cameras to help parking, phone integration, adaptive cruise control, etc but also annoying features like beeping at every speed limit sign and getting it absolutely wrong every time.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 08:09:55 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 15, 2024, 06:53:20 pmThere's some truth there, but I still have to understand, assess, and deal with the new threats.For the keyless idiocies, I have to find a way to determine the deficient vehicles, so that that I can avoid them.QuoteFeature, not benefit.QuoteMy mind would wander. I even prefer geared cars because they give me a stimulus.to stay awake!QuoteWhat's a smartphone?How does using one avoid touch screens and eyes off roads?How do you change radio channel via feel?Screen ventilation by feel while driving? (Tesla salesmen fail hilariously with that! Someeventuallymanage to change seat heater instead !If the effing product demonstrators can't do it, what chance do mere users?! )QuoteThe reliability can be superb.The GUI fashion is so awful that some manufacturers are explicitly reversing away from touchscreensSome car controls will be OK, some appalling (e.g. Tesla). I have to waste timeassessing them all, something unnecessary when controls were standard.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 08:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 07:57:30 pmAgreed; neither am I.You asserted tanks need not be entertainingly enormous. So what volumetric energy density are are you using as the basis for your assertion?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 08:15:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 15, 2024, 08:14:27 pmCome on. If they could build the Hindenburg in the 1930s we can build one today.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 08:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 15, 2024, 06:58:14 pmNever forget changes to the licence terms for your added cost seat heaterWorse: manufacturer bankruptcy...People who bought Fiskers are unsure about how they’ll keep their cars maintained or even whether the software-dependent EVs will continue working.https://www.wired.com/story/fisker-went-bankrupt-what-do-its-ev-owners-do-next/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 08:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 08:02:43 pmDo you know of a source of such vital information?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 08:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 15, 2024, 08:24:51 pm1) Most brand / model specific internet forums have a section with common problems for specific model years / versions.2) Online car magazines tend to have reviews made by owners. Bonus points for sorting reviews by milage. The high mileage review often list the problems people have encountered. Put several of those reviews together and you get a picture of what to expect.3) Car repair forums. Browsing through those for a specific brand / model can give an indication of common problems (and whether they are complicated to fix).

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 08:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 08:39:37 pmIn the US, Consumer Reports magazine has a yearly auto issue where they rate used cars and publish detailed data on experience with different systems thereof (electrical, body integrity, etc.).The information is also online, but you need to join.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:00:26 pm
content: The problem with those consumer magazines is that they tend to be limited to cars up to 5 years, maybe 8 years old. However, the best price point to buy a car used is when it is around 8 years old without about 150k km / 100k miles on the odometer. With a decent car model, you'll be at the sweet spot where it comes to depreciation and future maintenance costs until you drive it into the ground.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 15, 2024, 08:20:27 pmAny small car maker going out of business is a PITA for owners. It always has been. So many parts are specific to a particular model. If Ford collapses there are so many of their cars out there, third parties would step in to make parts that fit. Good luck with a small volume car. It could be the part you need actually came from a high volume car's parts bin, but don't count on it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 08:39:37 pmSo, lots of biassed sources (specific to brand), uncorrelated datapoints (online car magazines) and incomplete anecdotes (forums).Arguably that's no worse than for old and non-EV cars.The best I've come across in the UK is ""Which?" consumers organisation. My normal strategy has been:find reliable brandfind possible types within that brandsit in one to determine comfort or otherwisefind suitable one to buyLooks like 3 will be expanded to "has a tolerable GUI that doesn't require me to take my eves of the road to change radio/ventilation"

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:33:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 15, 2024, 09:14:51 pmEr no.My daughter has a 1972 van for business purposes. It can be an expensive pain, but as the mechanic puts it "anything in it can be fixed for enough money".Not true when (Fiskar's) servers are turned off

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:34:22 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 15, 2024, 08:48:13 pmSounds like the UK "Which?" consumers' organisation.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:35:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 09:00:26 pmThat's one strategy. Another valid strategy is to buy a 2yo car in decent nick, and keep it for a decade or more.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 09:36:21 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 15, 2024, 09:33:27 pm"For enough money" is the key thing here. An expensive customised car repair is just as much a scraping event as any other.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 10:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 15, 2024, 09:35:41 pmBut then you are still hit with a huge amount of depreciation. At about 8 years 70% of the value of the car has gone while you still have at least half the miles / kilometers left. So the depreciation cost per distance driven is super low and you can drive it for 8 to 12 years depending on how much you drive annually. Depending on the state of the car around 200k miles / 320k km you can decide to spend a few k euros/pounds and do a round of replacing shock aborbers + some other stuff (clutch, brake disks) and get another 100k km out of the car. Spread over 100k km, spending a few k euros/pounds amounts to nearly nothing cost wise.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 05:16:51 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 15, 2024, 08:09:55 pmJust like the whole car is a feature, not benefit. Saving 10 minutes thanks to automated warm-up is indeed feature, just like being able to use a car instead of a horse, or use a horse instead of walking.QuoteI remember this being a common discussion over two decades ago when cruise control systems were becoming commonplace. Many were concerned, and I think the opposite was finally shown to be true: doing manual tasks increases awareness short-term, but exhausts the cognitive "energy" long-term, which is exactly why autopilots were invented in aviation so long ago. No one questions their usability inincreasingawakeness in aviation; things like inoperative autopilots are on the other hand attributed as contributing factors to pilot fatigue and accidents. I think this discussion is similar to backlash against seat belts. Some people were genuinely certain they increase risk of injury.And after I transitioned to modern car, I can confirm this myself: I arrive at the same destination more awake.QuoteIt's the thing I got first time a year ago. It is illegal to play with the touch screen on the road. With smart phone, you keep it in your pocket or toss it somewhere. It automagically connects to the car audio and automagically plays your playlist or interwebz radio or whatever you had playing. You can set your playlist at home if you so wish. So you don't have to try to find the correct C cassette while on the road.QuoteI don't know, my modern car has buttons on the steering wheel to change radio channels or skip to next/previous song on the playlist, or answer the phone. Much easier than ever before, and no need to take eyes off the road as before.QuoteMy modern car has classic buttons to adjust air conditioning / ventilation. I'm aware not all do. Manufacturers are finding the correct balance on touch screen vs. traditional buttons and some touchscreen only implementations are notoriously bad. Avoid them.Then again, some cars being crappy is nothing new.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 07:18:41 am
content: One thing I miss in the 'how do I do things on a touchscreen in a modern car' discussion is that (at least in our EV) you can get a lot done with voice commands. Keep your eyes on the road, press a button on the steering wheel and say what you want. This works for simple things like cabin temp or wipers but also for more difficult things like 'play Antihero by Taylor Swift' or 'Navigate to Neverland'I have to admit that this function (when well implemented) might be able to let me forget how much I like tactile buttons over the ubiquitous touchscreens in a modern car.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 07:35:25 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 16, 2024, 05:16:51 amThis is also my observation. Using adaptive cruise control together with automatic lane keeping on long rides makes me a lot less susceptible to highway hypnosis and hence more alert than when I need to keep it between the lines myself. This is especially true when I drive late at night with hardly any other traffic.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 10:37:33 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 15, 2024, 10:24:15 pmThere are indeed multiple reasonable strategies.I tend to prioritise lack of hassle over a few pesos.I'm not sure what class of car normally lasts 200kmiles, unless perhaps they are driven 40kmiles/year. I've never driven more tham 11k/year, and cars have lasted 10-15 years or 120kmiles.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 10:44:32 am
content: Quote from: woody on October 16, 2024, 07:35:25 amI'd be wary about that statement claiming alertness. My guess is that the opposite is true but lane assist makes it less of a problemA long time ago I worked at a research institute where they did experiments with how people drive cars. In one experiment they let people drive on a straight piece of endless road (in a very fancy simulator) and it turned out most fell asleep. It is better that driving requires some brain activity compared to no brain activity. So yes, lane assist is a good feature but it is there to keep you safe when you are down to zero attention to the road. In Europe most highways are somewhat curvy to follow the landscape and go around villages but in the US with some very long and straight highways, staying alert is a problem.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 10:56:04 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 16, 2024, 05:16:51 amHint: not everybody lives in the artic circle; snow is uncommon here.QuoteLet us get this right, you are remotely diagosing me. Yeah right!You completely misunderstand why autopilots were invented.You completely misattribute successes to autopilots.You don't understand the consequences of autopilotsYou don't understand the causes of many modern aircraft losses.The seat-belt safety issue is, of course, acompletered herring.QuotePrecisely.Once upon a time controls were standardised, and it was easy to switch between cars. Now things are so "complexified" that even thebrandsalesman can't use them! (Yes Tesla, I'm looking at your salesman!) Ridiculous.There is an entirely new class of cretinous craptude that has suddenly manifested itself as a result of product designers being kewl.That crapitude has to be investigated, learned, and avoided (if possible).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 11:02:05 am
content: Quote from: woody on October 16, 2024, 07:18:41 amI asked a Tesla salesman in a Tesla showroom to show me how I could adjust the ventilation to clear the windscreen while I was driving down the motorway.His first attempt was "that will never be necessary, Tesla will do it for you". Yeah, right.His second attempt was to use the touchscreen. He spent 5 minutes fiddling with the GUI, moving icons to the taskbar(!) and similar. Ridiculous (doubly so at 70mph), plus he failed.His third attempt was to revert to voice control, which I would have accepted. He failed, but did manage to turn on the underseat heating.Effing bloody dangerous SoCal crap.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 11:12:12 am
content: Having been a passenger in a Tesla (model X IIRC) myself I'd say the operation is an acquired taste. Way too much fiddling with menus & settings if you ask me though. I prefer things to just work 100% if they are automated and if they aren't automated, a single setting which just works in most cases. To me a car is like a hammer. When done I drop it where I am and go on doing more interesting things. When the hammer is needed again, just pick it up and use it. I have always been very prone to not locking a car BTW.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 11:13:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 10:44:32 amPrecisely.Early UK motorways were straight, but they rapidly worked out that gently curved motorways were safer for the reasons you mention.To flip to the aircraft autopilot example, the human factors experience is that:it is far from unknown for all pilots to be simultaneously asleep. Not a major issue over Greenland etc!when control is unexpectedly handed back to pilots, it takes time for them to mentally re-engage and take adequate control.Up to 20s, which is less of a problem at altitude than on the roadsCVR final words are too often "what's it doing now" (The other being "Oh Jesus")there have been too many crashes where the pilots couldn't figure out what the aircraft had started to do

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 11:20:48 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 11:12:12 amFundamental safety isn't an acquired tasteEither you can rely on automation or you can't. If you can't then manual operation has to be available and easy to use.Cars are fundamentally boring: a wheel on each corner of a box. Theywereamazingly reliable, until the recentintroductionof strange, subtle, dangerous failure modes and mechanisms. Back to the 50s, in bad ways.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 11:23:58 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 16, 2024, 05:16:51 amThat kind of makes me wonder what kind of car you where driving before. Most of the smaller cars are quite a handfull (and thus tiresome) to drive while bigger cars tend to stay on the road themselves and need a mild nudge at the steering wheel from time to time. And a lot depends on the type of suspension as well. A sporty & stiff suspension will jump allover the place while a softer suspension system will be more like gliding over the road. My assumption is that you also went a few steps up the ladder where it comes to quality & comfort regardless what is propelling your 'new' car.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 11:54:41 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 16, 2024, 11:02:05 amWell, having driven an M3 for 5 years and 122k km now, I have some remarks to make on this:- What do you need a Tesla salesman for? I never met one, we bought our car online and picked it up on a rainy day on a dock in Amsterdam.- If you do not muck around with the controls but leave the climate control on 'auto' your windscreen will never ever fog. Seems like the salesperson was not wrong.- The voice control works. Depending on connectivity, which is excellent in NL, so no problem there.Nobody forces you into a modern car but hey, some things are better than before. Set and forget climate control is definitely one of them. Voice control another.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 11:58:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 11:23:58 amNah, Finnish speedometer fixating culture is just sick, some can ignore it better than others, I'm not very good at ignoring it. Safety is of course #1, but additionally I want to drive decent speeds (still slow by mid-European standards of course) and not be a roadblock to others, and at the same time I don't want to pay fines. This means pretty accurate control of speed is necessary. Your 90-110 km/h limit is 80km/h here, and 88km/h costs 200EUR, and at 83km/h everyone is taking over you all the freaking time. So I like to drive 86-87km/h.I have been very happy to offload that mental and physical task to cruise control. I'm also happy to offload keeping safe distance to the previous car to the same cruise control system with a simple radar which also sees through fog and is pretty simple, even primitive technology. I can find myself looking much more outside of the front window than before. My task as a driver is to look for anything that is wrong and take control by the long ago standardized interfaces called "pedals" which are the same as always before.Claims that new generations of safety systems decrease safety are appealing, but in the end extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Somehow fatal accidents keep dropping everywhere. Specifically "false sense of security" is a real phenomenon, but also one of the most widely misdiagnosed by kitchen sink specialists. I'm really certain that emergency braking systems, blind spot warning systems, lane warning systems, anti-skid and other traction control systems, adaptive cruise controls etc. allsignificantlyincrease the safety, even though in isolated cases they can do the opposite. People are also notorious of overestimating their own driver skills. "I don't need ABS because I do better job manually" is very unlikely to be true.But it seems these safety improvements areeventuallyaccepted to majority of people. I mean, nearly no one questions the safety belts anymore, it took around 10 years, in early 1980's it was "well known" how seat belts are dangerous, in early 1990's they were accecpted. Same for ABS, "dangerous" in 1990, good in 2000. Now things like emergency braking systems and lane assists are getting questioned, in 2030 they are normal stuff and number of fatal accidents record low.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 12:21:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 10:44:32 amMuch of this is your own choice.Staring at a highway keeping your vehicle between two lines while maintaining a set speed takes a lot of your attention. Offloading these two basic functions to your car frees you to point that attention elsewhere. If this freed attention is used to look at road features, interpret traffic signs, the landscape, the weather, oncoming cars et cetera it will make you a much better driver. If it is used on your smartphone, a good book or a shave it will make you a worse driver.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 12:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 10:44:32 amI'd be wary about guessing without using a more automated car for a while. My car follows the lanes, and adjusts its speed as needed. No tired foot on the pedal for hours. I can look around for idiots doing stupid things instead of concentrating on lane following. I am much more relaxed on a long journey, and observing potential dangers more. If you choose to drive like an idiot, and let the automation do its thing on its own, eventually you are going to smash into some other idiot also not being observant. That's a choice.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 12:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 16, 2024, 11:54:41 amEr. They came with the salesroom, and are gatekeepers to sitting in the car.I then took advantage of one being there as a short-cut to my understanding how to implement obvious use cases. That failed, to my surprise.QuoteDon't believe it. Sure it will work in some conditions, but you'll need cause-and-effect proof before you can claim all conditions.I've never had much luck with speech control (one example made it into comp.risks!). To see how later systems perform and to remove me from the equation, I let the salesman follow their suggestion.The voice control completely failed when the salesman tried it. Can't get much more explicit that that!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 01:00:42 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 16, 2024, 12:43:27 pmYou and Woody appearantly understood wrong. I'm not saying these systems are bad (quite the contrary). They are certainly helpful to avoid swarfing and prevent collissions in (busy) traffic. What I am saying though is that you should be aware that the human brain needs a minimum amount of activity to stay aware of the situation and react to problems.My wife and I do very long trips regulary which includes driving at night on complety empty highways (no other traffic in sight). This is probably a situation where I'd turn lane assist off just to stay focussed on driving (driving with the cruise control alone already makes my brain wander around). There is always a chance a deer popping out of the woods onto the road (or something else unexpected) and you don't have time to come out of a semi-sleep when that happens. Probably the anti-collission system will kick in soon enough but if you are awake, you can try to avoid the deer (anti-skid system in action) and have no damage. Besides that, with little to no traffic staying between the lines becomes less important. It is not uncommon to find people driving in the middle of an empty highway in France. I guess that way they can swarf quite a lot before ending up in the side of the road.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 01:04:53 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 16, 2024, 12:21:12 pmNot so. This has been well studied over the decades.I suggest you read a book on human factors.QuoteNot so.Once you have been driving for a while, it takes a relatively small amount of attention. The rest of the attention can be given for exceptional circumstances.That small amount of attention is useful, since it keeps you alert and focussed on what is around you, outside the cab. It prevents "drifting off" into the music, conversation, etc.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 01:09:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 01:00:42 pmPrecisely.It doesn't take much experience and/or imagination to realise that. I suppose it does require some humble self-awareness, which not everybody has.I don't understand why some people can't accept that technologies (etc) can have benefits and problems, and not seek to recognise the problems and try to ameliorate them.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 01:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 01:00:42 pmThe problem with a drive assistant system is that the roles are backwards. Computers are good at maintaining concentration when little stimulus is present over any amount of time, and humans are not. Using humans as a backup to an automated driving system is backwards, but liability practicality requires it even if the outcome is worse. When immediate emergency action is required, the human is least likely to be able to provide it.My preference would be adaptive cruise control and lane following, which necessarily must include emergency stopping and obstacle avoidance. *I* can handle navigation just fine, and take control for that purpose as needed. But in practice if an automated system can handle adaptive cruise control and lane following, then it is a small step to full navigation except in unusual but not emergency cases, where the human can take over.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 01:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 16, 2024, 12:59:25 pmI am not going to convince you otherwise, which is fine by me.What I fail to understand though is that why I have to believe your one-time experience in a showroom over my own 5 year and many km experience in rain and shine with this very same car. There is a lot to complain about with an M3, but the climate control just is not one of them. And this seems to be not exclusively for an M3; the 2016 Mini Cooper (BMW) I have the pleasure to drive also has a climate control system that needs no setting beyond 'auto' and 19.5º. Fogging windows in cars are a thing of the past, where I had a sponge for this purpose in the glove compartment.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 02:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 01:00:42 pmWhat I'm saying is that these systems work fine but it is your choice how you use them. If you let the car do the scut work this does not mean you can go to sleep or go answer emails on your phone. It means that you still need to actively partake in the act of driving a vehicle doing 130km/h, but you have two less things to worry about. My personal observation is that it makes driving a lot less mentally exhausting on long trips.About the use of adaptive cruise control and auto lane keeping in busy traffic; I would argue that for this these systems are less useful. Adaptive cruise control keeps a safe distance from the car in front of you. Unfortunately on busy Dutch highways this distance fits at least 2 cars whose drivers have a completely different understanding of safe distance. Same goes for auto lane keeping unless you decide that doing 80 behind a truck is good enough.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 02:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 16, 2024, 02:01:46 pmAgain you demonstrate you are ignoring the decades of human factors engineering. You prefer your own preconception of how things ought to work. Unimpressive.At least start by understanding David Hess' statement, and its consequences.Then go find a book on how human factors contribute to and cause accidents. If that is beyond you, read/search the com.risks archive."Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 02:43:39 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 16, 2024, 01:18:57 pmThis does not represent how automated systems in most current cars work. The computers do the mundane stuff, and leave the driver free to look around and maintain maximum situational awareness. What I'd call idiot spotting. When you look at most drivers on a highway they are only looking at two things - the lane markers and the car in front. The exact two things the computers in vast numbers of cars are now dealing with.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 02:45:38 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 16, 2024, 01:18:57 pmConcentration sure, good at dealing with obstacles not so much. Teslas have been plowing into stopped vehicles for a long time.If the manufacturer doesn't want to take the legal liability for level 3, lane keeping should be forbidden in my opinion. That's the only indication I accept that they fixed it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 02:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 16, 2024, 02:45:38 pmI think you have confused 2 things. Automated car crashes have been mostly cars not stopping, and cars changing lanes without noticing obstacles. Lane keeping generally seems to have a reasonable record, even though some cars have odd design decisions. For example my Volvo will lose the lane some of the time. Fine, the lane isn't always well marked, and the system can't always get a good fix on it. However, there is no option for an audible warning when lane following drops out. They allow audible warnings for most other things to be configured. Weird.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 03:05:48 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 16, 2024, 02:50:02 pmHow much notice do they give that you must "wake up and pay attention"?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 04:46:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 16, 2024, 02:43:39 pmIt represents how humans work. Unless actively engaged, the human will become distracted and lose the situational awareness that the automated system is relying on to handle emergencies.Quote from: Marco on October 16, 2024, 02:45:38 pmAnd humans have been plowing into stopped vehicles for even longer. The current data indicates that automated driving systems already have fewer collisions per mile driven.QuoteI doubt that will ever happen because nobody with deep pockets is going to accept liability when it can be put off onto the human, and humans are considered safer drivers whether the statistics indicate that or not.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 04:55:14 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 16, 2024, 04:46:46 pmYou should see the French road service vans that got hit from behind. Sometimes they put them on display at big gas stations / resting areas. Earlier this year they had lined up 10 to 20 of such damaged vans in one place.QuoteAs far as I know the legal framework in use across Europe says that the manufacturer is liable for damage caused by cars which drive autonomously.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 06:04:08 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 16, 2024, 04:46:46 pmCommon sense tells me that lane departure warning will have a lower accident rate than lane keeping.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 06:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 16, 2024, 02:50:02 pmIf you're letting the car drive, you are not going to be very quick at stopping.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 06:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 16, 2024, 06:04:08 pmStatisticshttps://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReportsay different.*edited to link to the English version

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 06:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 16, 2024, 06:14:04 pmTessa is under investigation for false claims, bymultipleUS transportation authorities. Read comp.risks.If Musk told me the time, I would check my watch - firstly to verify his assertion, and secondly to check it was still on my wrist.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 06:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 16, 2024, 04:46:46 pmSure, but currently human drivers are not actively engaged in situational awareness. They are very "car in front" focussed. If you want to increase their situational awareness you need them engaged them on more than the car in front.Quote from: David Hess on October 16, 2024, 04:46:46 pmI think you need to express that more clearly. It sounds like you are talking about automated driving. The figures we have are for driver assistance. Tesla's and information from insurance organisations seem to show an assisted driver has fewer accidents.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 06:40:14 pm
content: The usual misunderstanding is that assisting safety systems "make drivers lazy" and increase their risk taking. There is zero evidence to support this idea.In reality, irresponsible people are irresponsible. For those, safety systems such as automatic emergency braking (rear-end prevention) and lane departure prevention give a big improvement. Then there are careful people. For them, safety systems give a smaller improvement (even careful people make mistakes and lose attention, but it doesn't happen as dramatically and as often). Careful people in reality do not turn into careless drivers when assisted.This also explains the Tesla numbers. Those people who against instructions use autopilot feature as "fully self-driving car" (and to be fair, Tesla has been unclear in their marketing, too) and crash make big headlines, but they are the same kind of people who are totally reckless behind the wheel anyway. I knew a guy who semi-intentionally slept behind the wheel on a regular basis not feeling any remorse about doing that, basically trusting those "audible" lane markings and others to honk if necessary. For him, Tesla autopilot would be a huge safety improvement. For the rest of us, such features help catch those rare incidences when we fail to notice something even when we try to be as careful as possible.And yet, if he ever crashed with a normal car when sleeping behind the wheel, no one would care; business as usual. But if he crashed while sleeping on a Tesla running autopilot, it would be a big headline.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 07:10:56 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 16, 2024, 06:40:14 pmThat is not what I and others are writing about. Nobody says drivers are getting lazy or are taking more risk. OTOH, requiring a minimal mental task load while driving is a very well researched & documented and thus a well understood phenomenon. People simply fall asleep behind the wheel if they have too little to do and this has nothing to do with being reckless, lazy or dumb. It is how our brains are wired. This is why systems which check driver alertness and alert the driver (when the driver is not watching the road) are very good to have.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 07:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 16, 2024, 06:40:14 pmActually, there is evidence to support the idea that drivers compensate for safety systems, or take advantage of them, to drive riskier.This came out of New York city where they passed a law requiring all taxis to have anti-lock brakes after a specific date. They also kept detailed records of collisions involving taxis since they provided a severely regulated service. After anti-lock brakes were required, the number of collisions initially declined. As the taxi drivers acclimated to having anti-lock brakes, they relied on them to drive more aggressively and the collision rate went up to the original level, except now collisions were more severe.A similar observation was made about third brake lights. Immediately after they were required, rear end collision rates declined, and then rose back to the same level as drivers became accustomed to them.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 07:26:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 16, 2024, 07:10:56 pmI had the opportunity to drive a friend's Tesla Model S and besides monitoring alertness, it requires the driver's hands to remain on the steering wheel (yoke) while autonomously driving. I did not however test the autonomous driving for more than a short distance.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 07:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 16, 2024, 06:14:04 pmNowhere does it make the comparison between a car with lanekeeping and lane departure warning all else being equal.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 08:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 16, 2024, 07:15:44 pmI think seat belts were the first time this was observed. Compulsory seat belts seemed to make ER/A&E places quieter for a while, then the casualties built up again until they were comparable with the previous numbers. I don't know how rigorous any of these studies are.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 08:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 16, 2024, 07:15:44 pmA technical term for this phenomenon is “homeostasis of risk”, proposed by Prof G Wilde at Queen’s University in 1982 and subsequent publications.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 08:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 16, 2024, 07:47:58 pmI can't find one right now, but I have seen insurance industry studies that say a car available with and without driver support (I assume that's typically low end vs high end variants) has around 20% less accidents for the driver assisted variant. I think one report also had some information about the severity of the accidents, and found some improve there, too.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 08:27:39 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 16, 2024, 08:25:23 pmThe puzzling thing is people seem to return to the previous level of risk, without receiving input about ER/A&E figures, or other meaningful information to know when they have reached the previous risk level.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 08:28:51 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 16, 2024, 08:27:39 pmProbably “gut feeling”.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2024, 10:17:59 pm
content: Is this really a valid statement?“I’m actually leaving early because my phone is dying and I have a Tesla so I can’t get in. It’s really upsetting, because it meant a lot to be here, and I just can’t get in my car.”What they are leaving is a political rally on Tuesday, so I won't mention it in public here. Those interested should be able to find the source pretty easily. Yes, I am aware of the person that Tesla almost killed due to lack of cellphone reception in the middle of a desert. This is in the middle of a US city.https://www.greenoptimistic.com/tesla-owner-stuck-desert-cellphone-20170126/

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 01:06:43 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 16, 2024, 10:17:59 pmThis has little to nothing to do with electrification. It is a problem of a problematic implementation of automation that could as easily have happened on an ICE vehicle, and also a failure to read the owners manual which recommends carrying the provided key at all times. If the key had been at hand there would have been no problem, and in fact the problem was resolved eventually by bringing a key.There have been many inept implementations of automation. One of my vehicles has "lane assist". It tracks the lane and gently nudges the wheel to re-center if the vehicle drifts off. But to avoid having drivers using the feature to drive with hands off, it monitors steering inputs and issues warnings and beeps demanding that the driver take control of the wheel. All well and good, but I am not a driver that saws the wheel back and forth going down the road. And the system fairly frequently nags me to take the wheel when I have both hands on the wheel and am well centered in the driving lane.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 08:34:57 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 16, 2024, 10:17:59 pmClassic FUD. How this actually works:As mentioned in the article every Tesla comes with two creditcard sized chipcards. You can order more if you need. These cards open the car and switch on the car. This works with NFC and without any connectivity. It does need 12V though. Say for arguments sake the 12V battery is flat. Then there is a procedure that, with the help of a charged 12V battery outside of the car, you can open the frunk. With the frunk open you can access (replace or charge) the 12V battery. After which the car will work again. A procedure like this will exist for any modern ICE vehicle with keyless entry.If you decide to use the über-sexy 'Phone Key' feature you will have to realize that this means you need a charged smartphone and bluetooth connectivity. No network connectivity is needed for this to work, but you do need to activate this feature once using the app on your phone before you are able to use it. If you fail to enable this feature or charge your phone and then find out that you cannot get into your car you're not very smart. But then of course it is much nicer to blame the car for this instead of your own ignorance of new technology. For you Tesla sells a nice keyfob ($200+) with actual buttons to open and close the car to make it behave like any 20 year old Toyota. You still need to change the battery in the fob every now and then, of which the car will give you ample warning.Another way to open and make a Tesla 'go' is to use your app. Via this app you can open the car remotely and start it remotely from a smartphone. For this to work both the car and the phone obviously need network connectivity. This option can be used if you find you lost your key and/or phone. You then lend a phone to call your spouse, who then can remotely open the car and switch it on, so you can make it home and order a new phone and keycard.If I read the desert story this is the way the protagonist started his car in the morning. Why he did that is really unclear. It is more or less the same as opening any modern car with a contactless keyfob, start it, then throw the fob out of the window and drive away. Why would one do that? Furthermore the smartphone in this story was not enabled to use as a key. And, embarking on a desert trip, the smartcard was left at home.As I said before, there is a lot to complain about certain Tesla quirks (a yoke??? automatic windscreen wipers? the way speed is enforced on autopilot?) as well as about their CEO, but horror stories of not getting into a car are user ignorance."Often, the greater our ignorance about something, the greater our resistance to change."

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 09:29:57 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 17, 2024, 01:06:43 amAgreed.It is, however, a startling example of the new kind of idiocy that - when I need to buy another car - needs to be discovered and avoided.KISS is a good principle.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 09:37:45 am
content: Quote from: woody on October 17, 2024, 08:34:57 amI don't know what a "frunk" is, and it doesn't seem relevant.Wow, that's grossly complex and complicated for something as simple as starting a car.KISS is a good principle that Tesla seems to have avoided.You miss the real question about that desert example: why did the manufacturerknowinglyintroduce a lethalnewfailure mechanism.Tesla charges you extra for keys? Wow, that's setting people up to fail.You sound like a Tesla fanbois.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 09:59:55 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2024, 09:37:45 amNot even close. But I find it helps to use facts instead of fiction to separate useful critique from brand-bashing. You might try it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 10:27:00 am
content: Quote from: woody on October 17, 2024, 09:59:55 amThus carefully avoiding my other observations and conclusions., e.g. KISS and keys being "optional extras".

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 12:05:41 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2024, 10:27:00 amI'm confused. You get 2 keycards, every bit as good as an actual key and much more convenient to carry around. If anything, simpler than a physical key. What exactly do you dislike about those?

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 01:03:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2024, 10:27:00 amI must admit find it a bit challenging to fully engage with these observations and conclusions as they seem to rely on a mix of partial truths, common misconceptions, personal anecdotes and oversimplifications. For example, stating:Quotemisses completely that the described procedure is only needed when there is something seriously wrong with the car.Introducing a popular acronym like KISS can never go wrong but, going back to the origins of KISS, do you really think that any car produced in the last 30 years is repairable under combat conditions with only simple tools? Current automotive technology is never simple due to ever increasing demands on safety, efficiency and pollution. In that respect Tesla cars are more KISSable than any ICE, for the simple reason the drive train of any EV is way less complicated than an ICE drivetrain.Feigning ignorance regarding a frunk while using a browser is a cheap shot, as is claiming I sound like a fanboy. Look athttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/feeds/to get a feel how real fanboys soundQuoteNo I did not. I explained to you that you could get yourself in exactly the same situation with any other contactless keyfob system. And I explained to you how you could get out of this situation. The desert example is just showing the ignorance of the people involved or, in a more devious way, is meant to either generate clicks or smear a brand on purpose by acting calculatedly stupid to see if they could f*ck up the system.You have further misunderstood what I wrote about keys. I stated that keyfobs are optional extras. Bloody expensive at that, but only needed for people who are unable or unwilling to adapt to new ways of opening and activating their vehicle. The 'new way' keycards are included. Handier, cheaper and safer than the keys to any old car.For now I would like to leave it at this. We're way off on a tangent here which does not seem to be of any benefit to us, let alone others in this thread. I hope we can see eye to eye in future discussions as I do learn from a number of your contributions on this forum.Kind regards.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 01:22:46 pm
content: Quote from: woody on October 17, 2024, 09:59:55 amProblem with facts is that you need to spend time gathering and processing them, and quite serious mental capacity (working memory) to form coherent opinions based on those facts. It is much easier to recite some ages old oversimplified conclusions usually completely irrelevant to the subject in case, which is what tggzzz does day in day out. Sometimes these principles hit the nail perfectly, by sheer luck, but more often not. tggzzz is completely immune to normal discussion where arguments based on detailed presentation of facts are exchanged and result in increased understanding of the subject. As a cherry on top, this bullshit is marinated with ad hominem: usual case of projection, because he himself is a typical example of strongly emotional fanboy/hateboy, he assumes that others who disagree must be such, too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 01:28:21 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 17, 2024, 12:05:41 pmThe downside of electronic keys is that they don't work when the battery is flat. There is a lot to say in favour of having a physical key which opens a physical lock. At least it allows to open the bonnet / booth / trunk or wherever the battery is located so you can jumpstart a car.BTW: most car keys have NFC tags in them for about 20 years as part of the anti-theft system. The physical key part is mostly a backup in case there is no power.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 03:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 16, 2024, 08:22:20 pmIMHO such a statistic should also be plotted against total distance driven by the population (as a metric for the amount of car use). If the distance driven increases, then it is reasonable to assume the number of accidents will increase as well. And distance driven can also be split by road type to further narrow down possible statistical correlations which then can lead to research into finding causal links.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 05:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 17, 2024, 12:05:41 pmAre these keycards the things that make it easy to steal many types of car?https://fortune.com/2019/01/28/keyless-car-theft-steal/Or note the sardonic last comment inhttp://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/31/5#subj18.1Do the car manufacturers supply (decorative) Faraday cages so that youcanmust put the fobs inside to foil relay attacks?Or the things thataren'tnecessary for a running engine?http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/30/69#subj9Or the things that are easily clonablehttp://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/29/68#subj5.1http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/29/68#subj7ISTR Apple have abandoned their car. Just as well given the quality of their risk analysishttp://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/30/81#subj23.1as per the quoted commentPhysical keys are simple and the failure modes are simple, well understood, and easy to avoid.Keyless car entry systems are complex and not well understood by many people (thieves excepted). The extra features they offer are just that: features, not benefits.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 06:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2024, 03:03:59 pmSure, but seatbelt wearing become compulsory in the UK in 1983, when miles driven wasn't changing rapidly, and there were factors you might expect to actually bring down accidents, like people finally feeling shame about driving while drunk. Something there was far less of in the 70s. The changes in E&R use were far larger than the changes in miles driven.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 09:47:13 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2024, 05:41:41 pmAll valid points, but cars with mechanical keys weren't exactly unstealable either. If anything, I'd prefer a criminal to clone my key from a distance rather than beat me half to death to steal a "real" key :-)

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:12:17 am
content: Rather than Apple wanted to automatically unlock cars at greater range, it's far more likely that they looked at existing tech and said "lol no" and saw an opportunity to just do it right and and give yet another massive advantage to our ecosystem while everyone else is too busy enshittifying.The ability to actively unlock cars at long range can be convenient too, but that they wanted to do ToF means they were more concerned with doing the default right. They didn't invent it, but iUnlock could easily become synonymous with doing it right while "everyone" else does it wrong.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:24:14 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2024, 01:28:21 pmAll the keyless fobs I've seen have a backup method using pure rfid (held next to start button) for starting, and a physical key for entry

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 01:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 18, 2024, 10:12:17 amYou have to give Apple credit for taking security seriously. Some of the products I have designed are to be used with Apple Homekit and Apple requires to embed an authetification chip bought from Apple (under NDA and other scrutiny) in order to make the product able to connect to the Homekit ecosystem. Without the chip it is a no-go.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 01:57:01 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 18, 2024, 09:47:13 amTrue enough - but these are new and unnecessaryextrathreat vectors. Having someone "relieve me" of a key is not something I've considered a threat in the UK, but I can appreciate it might be more of a problem in lawless countries.The other new theft threat vector is via the CANbus, which is apparently stunningly easy to access on some cars via the parking/sidelights.Aside: I see alotof "new" cars with one defective parking/sidelight. Is that because they don't cost £5 to fix anymore?

author: PeteH
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 01:59:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2024, 01:28:21 pmThere is a fairly easy method for getting into the front trunk, in order to boost it, in the event the battery dies and physical access is lost. (Tesla) This doesn't require a physical key.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 02:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 18, 2024, 10:12:17 amNote the sardonic comment to the original article, viz "Awesome! iPhone thieves will now get a free car as a bonus! And if they ask Siri to navigate home they can have all my stuff too."

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 02:58:33 pm
content: The wisdom of putting all your eggs in one basket is orthogonal to Apple implementing electronic locks securely.Anything they put their brand on would probably embarras the rest of the industry by comparison security wise (likely including Bluetooth ToF "secure" ranging, Bluetooth getting security right is exceedingly unlikely).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 04:09:27 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 18, 2024, 10:24:14 amThis is true, but as time passes, and the electronic way to get in has become prominent, they are starting to make the location of the physical key and its receptable less obvious. When you need to know what to do, you might not remember. If its a rental you might never have known. Rentals are becoming a PITA as cars are getting more and more "upgraded" features put in odd locations. It used to just be the unfamiliar lights you had to mess around trying to work out.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 04:27:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2024, 04:09:27 pmI have never rented a car that came with anything like a manual--fun with differently-equipped vehicles picked up after dark.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 04:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2024, 04:09:27 pmI have a related story about a former co-worker: he had rented a car to go to a seminar but forgot the lights. So the battery was flat when he wanted to go back home. As the car had keyless entry, no way to get in to pop the bonnet and jumpstart it. After a long call with the rental company, he learned he had to take the keyfob apart to get the key and stick it in a hidden slot on the driver's door (almost like McGyver used to do on TV). So he got in only to find out the battery was located in the booth and since the booth didn't had a physical lock, he had to crawl into the booth (imagine a somewhat fat, not fit person) from the front seats across the back seats to unlock the booth lid. Once that was done, the car could be jumpstarted. Needless to say this took a couple of hours.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 05:15:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2024, 04:37:33 pmMy Toyota won't let me pop the bonnet unless the key is in the driving columnandturned.I could get in without power, could insert and turn the key, but I'm not sure if that would be sufficient.

author: fastbike
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 06:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2024, 05:41:41 pmOur local paper had an article about the complexity of modern vehicles and how much parts that used to cost a few dollars can now often run to thousands.https://www.thepress.co.nz/business/350454125/45k-car-repair-bill-and-other-reasons-we-need-right-repairModern vehicles have become so complex that simple repairs are often not economic, so otherwise perfectly functional vehicles are scrapped.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 06:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: fastbike on October 18, 2024, 06:17:28 pmThus providing the economic replacement parts for other vehicles, to sidestep the manufacturer overcharging for assemblies. Then you get into the war of being able to program those parts while the manufacturer argues nobody but them should be capable of working with used parts, under the theory that this stops crime.Nobody tell them the criminals are as capable of reverse engineering their half-baked electronics as anyone else, and even more motivated by their profit margins..

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 06:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2024, 04:37:33 pmTo me this sounds like a hilarious design fuck-up. One could guess that the first thing to do when they design such complicated vehicle with such advanced features is to add simple prevention against forgotten lights draining the batteryAnd that is, to my knowledge, the norm. I can't leave lights or anything else on in my car so that it would drain the battery. Either the car is "on" (meaning, traction battery is supplying the 12V battery, equivalent to ICE running), or it is "off". There are no weird states like "forget light switch on and power is still on". In off-state, only the stuff manufacturer designed for very low quiescent current is on. Everything else is simply "off" regardless of any switch position or setting.But clearly that car was different. Mistakes and failures happen. I would like to see more of the blaming properly: show who is doing bad job, and how, instead of generic complaints. And expensive mistakes are also nothing new. For example, certain car makes and models some 50 years ago were "well known" to randomly catch fire, resulting in total loss of the car, and life threatening situation for the driver.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 07:59:59 pm
content: A good reason to leave the lights on is when a car is parked on the side of a dark road (been there, done that). The VW Golfs from the 1980's even/already had the feature that you could control which side of the lights stayed on (with the ignition off) using the indicator handle. But ofcourse you'd need to be wary of the battery drain. AFAIK every ICE car allows to leave the lights on with the ignition off. IMHO a good safety feature in case the car get stranded at a poorly visible spot so other road users can see there is an obstacle (for as long as the battery lasts).

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 08:41:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2024, 07:59:59 pmDon't you think that this is already handled in EVs because this is a feature required by law? The only difference is that an EV can have their hazards run for months instead of days for an ICE.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 08:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 18, 2024, 06:55:46 pmIn which case your car would not be legal in the UK. The Highway code statesRule 249All vehicles MUST display parking lights when parked on a road or a lay-by on a road with a speed limit greater than 30 mph (48 km/h).QuoteBetter not to make a mistake by trying to be too clever/fashionable/different.Better to have a car that works in the ways evolved over a century.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 08:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2024, 08:46:15 pmYep, a car must be able to leave the parking lights on, for at least one side of the car. However, a huge number of cars have allowed you to walk away with the headlights on, with no warning. That is the real battery killer. You could go to work, leave the parking lights on all day, and still be fine at home time. The headlights will flatten the battery. Its annoying how many cars have not warned you as you leave the car that the parking lights are on. A gentle reminder would be nice.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 09:00:35 pm
content: Given how deaf I am, "gentle" is uselessIt is also possible to flatten a battery in half an hour: stay inside without turning the headlights off. Oops.

author: fastbike
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 09:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 18, 2024, 06:28:54 pmToo bad that the original owner has become an unwilling parts donor and has lost big $$ because of the crap economic model underlying the auto business.

author: fastbike
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 09:04:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2024, 07:59:59 pmMy first car was a VW from 1969, and it had that feature. I wonder if it was a legal requirement in West Germany at the time.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 09:10:25 pm
content: Quote from: fastbike on October 18, 2024, 09:04:19 pmI remember spending ages one day trying to debug the 'wiring fault' that was causing one sidelight to stay on [Edit: on my Golf]! That would have been back in the '80s. It did have problems with overloaded solder joints becoming dry in the under-dash fusebox that led me to the conclusion.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:21:54 pm
content: I've been saying that a problem with ML cars (and other ML things) is that nobody can predict when and why they will work and fail. A corollary is that adding more training use cases can make things that previously worked start to fail. Yes, tomorrow's car might not behave the same way as today's car, due to an overnight update.So today's report:https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/18/tesla_fsd_lowvisibility_accident/Myemphasis...In itslatestopeningresume into a Tesla FSD investigation, theNational Highway Traffic Safety Administration(NHTSA) said that it's taking a look at Tesla self-driving systems due to four accidents, one involving an injury and another fatally striking a pedestrian. .... The agency will also review whether Tesla implemented anychanges to FSD that could have worsened its ability to handle such scenarios.Not fly-by-night organisations, but one that has finally woken up and is insisting that car manufacturers account for design defects and inappropriate behaviour.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:39:02 pm
content: Quote from: uer166 on October 18, 2024, 08:41:55 pmProbably. I went by what Siwastaja has claimed.I'm not sure either whether a BEV can keep the hazards lights on for months. As far as my information goes BEVs typically have an auxiliary (12V) battery fitted to run things like lights when the main battery isn't on. I don't know whether the auxiliary gets topped up from the main battery when the car is off in every BEV; it could be implementation dependent. IOW: I'd look it up for a specific car model.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2024, 10:39:02 pmIt's supposed to, but there have been many instances of people getting locked out because, somehow, this fairly simple item on the checklist has been messed up. Repeatedly.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 18, 2024, 10:45:29 pmIs there a way of disabling this recharge behaviour in most EVs? A contactor in the high voltage battery isolates the high voltages when the car is off, so it should be safe to handle. If the contactor randomly engages to recharge the low voltage battery that safety factor would be lost.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 10:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 18, 2024, 10:51:00 pmI would imagine the service documentation covers manual lockout of the contactor. Alas, mere mortals can't even buy that information even when they own the vehicle. Not here, anyway.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 09:20:05 am
content: https://service.tesla.com/docs/Model3/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-A457202A-D5B8-4DAD-A374-C91A41A7B4F5.html

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 02:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2024, 10:21:54 pmThere is some ML in the object detection and lower level path planning, but all the high level decision is within the guard rails of an expert system.Which is a problem, since expert systems are rather fragile. Predictably fragileWaymo&Co have an army of remote controllers who are allowed to nudge the cars through the expert system guard rails, but if cellular goes down it won't take long for those "self driving" cars to all lock down. Low speed urban driving with remote controllers and Mercedes's "follow the duckling" are probably the best you can do for self driving ... and I think Mercedes is still going to plow into firetrucks.The usual leading duck will be trucks and caravans which can't suddenly change lanes, but if the leading duck is say a small van doing a lane change for an obstacle, stopping might no longer be an option and the self driving car faces some very tough decisions full of the false positives and negatives which make the Teslas plow into otherwise avoidable firetrucks.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 02:16:53 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2024, 02:07:17 pmDefine "expert system". The definition has changedradicallyover the past few years, to include "millions of trimpots" MLPromoting an "expert machine learning system" when it is a Mechanical Turk behind the scenes is disingenuous at best and could gain the SEC's attention.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2024, 02:16:53 pmA Rule Check with predetermined rules second guessing any ML route planning. Most likely within statemachines, with relaxed rules for emergency situations. With a common state being"I'm just going to sit here and wait for a nudge".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2024, 03:00:26 pmIO can't be arsed to watch yootooo vids."Expert systems" has never included FSMs within its definition."Rule-based" systems can be of many types, including forward and/or backward propagation, Horn clauses and more. That's the old skool 80s meanings of "expert system". The modern meaning is, regrettably and confusingly perceptron++ with millions of trimpots set by examples.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:19:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2024, 03:16:28 pmI can 100% guarantee you that I can find plenty of 80s paper, including from high impact journals, which aren't as strict about the definition as you pretend it was.But I can't be arsed, because it's way more work than watching a youtube video at a timestamp

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2024, 03:19:10 pmIn the 80s "expert system" was a term quite narrowly applied to a system where knowledge extracted for a bunch of accepted experts in their field was combined with some form of Bayesian reasoning.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2024, 10:21:54 pmBut the same thing can be said about human drivers. These also fail in unpredictable ways. OTOH it is hard to set a good metric for autonomous car performance in terms of driving style and accident avoidance combined. Driving style is hard to put in numbers but severity of accidents is something you can measure objectively though. Autonomous cars could make decissions to limit severity of an accident in ways that may look odd at the surface. Like driving into a fire truck instead of running over a cyclist if that would result in less injuries.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 19, 2024, 03:23:08 pmYou will only use "No True Scottsman" against any example I will ever come up with, so it's not worth my time. I have had this type of discussion too many times before, scientific language is never as well defined as even people in the field believe. Counter examples never help unless it's from someone with unassailable prestige, even those are probably out there in this case.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 19, 2024, 03:39:44 pmOf course you'll find all sorts of people using all sorts of terms for all sorts of things. However, for people working in expert systems in the 80s they used that term very much to indicate that they were NOT using the machine learning approaches which had failed before them. They were purely building decision trees based on formally capturing the knowledge of experts through extensive interviewing, and applying Bayesian reasoning. They got quite annoyed if you tried to use any AI related terms to characterise their work, as AI had become a toxic term they wanted to stay clear of.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:49:47 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 19, 2024, 03:23:08 pmYup.As someone who was active in the area in the early 80s, I have a reasonable understanding of the state of the art back then.Bayesian reasoning wasn'trequired, but was a bolt-on extra attempting (poorly) to break the problems associated with internally semi-self-contradictory sets of rules, and/or to introduce some "fuzziness". The combination of rulesets and Bayesian fuzziness was not a complete success canonical examples were medical diagnostic rules. They could work reasonably well within limits of medical specialisms. When attempts were made to apply them more widely, they ran into problems with too many exception cases. To invent an example, in the context of a brain tumour headache has some specific diagnostic meanings - but outside that specialism it could mean anything and nothing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 03:54:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 19, 2024, 03:45:29 pmYup.The "no true Scotsman" accusation doesn't hold water.AI is one of those terms that mutates every few years (or decades in the case of "AI winters"). I can accept that pure rule-based AI was earlier 80s, and that by the late 80s its limits became apparent so people may well have moved away from them and towards other "investable/publishable" techniques

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 05:44:32 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2024, 08:46:15 pmSorry, I was unclear. I meant: I can't leave the lights on BY ACCIDENT. If the light switch is in either AUTO or ON position, lights go off as the vehicle is turned off. I have to explicitly set in to park light position and even then the car has a very audible warning that lights are on. Similar to the beepers added as retrofits already in 1980's, probably earlier.If one is deaf, then they sure won't hear the alarm. Deaf people on the other hand tend to be good compensating the lack of hearing by e.g. vision. There is an excellent way to see if the car lights are on or not. Guessing what is it is left as an exercise to the reader

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 06:42:10 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 19, 2024, 05:44:32 pmOn more than one occasion I have pulled in and parked, got out and got on with the business of why I drove there in the first place.Broad sunlight, so parking lights were pretty much invisible. Concentrating on other things, so didn't explicitly stop and look at lights. Buzzer always was, um, discrete, whereas I always needed a "wake up from your reverie" alarm.People are complex and imperfect. Systemsmusttake that into account; if not they are setting up failure modes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 07:03:01 pm
content: I'd like to add that IMHO cars should be easy to get going again in case of a mishap. On far trips I always bring a set of tools, spare lamps, fuses, some tape and a real spare tyre. In the Netherlands it is pretty easy to get your car fixed quickly. Abroad not at all. Having a tyre repaired (5 minute job) can take several days and you might need to wait at least week for something simple like having an alternator changed (half hour job for a trained mechanic on my current car).