New hobby lab mega post - thoughts on choices (picoscope, TinySA, microscope) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Skwide
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 05:10:03 pm
content: Hi folks - I've been doing electronics as a hobby since the late 70s (mostly digital).I have a project now that needs some "lab" upgrades. ("lab" = desk in the conservatory with 34" monitor and an Ikea map style storage drawer cabinet with Prusa on top - so space is super premium and keeping things put away and undusty is a factor - we need compact, very compact).I'm after:1 - Microscope for surface mount PCB work.Choice largely betweenAndonstar AD207Sor similar, OR homebrew using a Yizhan true 4K camera and C-mount lens and stand - eghttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007598228847.htmlplus suitable lens with good physical range - 6 inches plus - to get it clear of hot irons, plus stand likehttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005008108772021.html.I would rather just have a camera and my choice of lens which is the thing putting me off Andonstar. But the Andonstar and similar is a one stop purchase that will probably do the job. I'll be hot plate soldering, so this is more for placement and inspection - finest pitch package is a SSOP style.2 - Oscilloscope. Looking very much towards the Picoscope 2000 as it's compact and the software is very featureful. Unsure of which spec to go for,Superficially the 10MHZ/100MS/s 2204A would probably do for a lot of stuff. I am only likely to do audio and looking for ripples and badness on homebrew SMPS circuits with a switching frequency in the hundreds of kHz. However, the sample RAM is only 8kB which seems slim. Would it really be worth upgrading to the 50Mhz/500MS/s 2206B which does offer some other extra features too? Side interest would be serial data decoding, but mostly around I2C and 1-wire. I realise SPI would need a 4 channel scope and I have a cheapy logic analyser already.3 - Spectrum analyser:TinySA or RF signal amp on the Picoscope above? My interest here is purely to see if my SMPS modules are spitting off uncivilised amounts of RFI in the sub MHz and low Mhz range. The SMPS will be supplying tree lights, with long runs of cable both feeding the SMPS and the lights themselves. So measurement accuracy is not a priority - I just want to see any nasty spikes around 320kHz and the first few harmonics, relative to the baseline.I am not well versed with the technical side of RF, so how many dB amplification would I need to interface a simple antenna (eg telescopic radio stick) to say a 20mV or 50mV scope input?All of the above - portability is not a priority - hence I can use both my monitor directly for teh microscope, or indirectly via my linux laptop (microscope over USB, Picoscope and other tools). With the RFI sniffing, I am prepared to carry the laptop and Picoscope and amp outside - this is likely to be a "done once to prove the design and never again" exercise.Money is not super tight, but I don't want to spend needlessly for a hobby.I've done most of the research I can - would be very grateful for any thoughts

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 07:32:11 pm
content: Hi,Everyone will have different ideas, if it were me, I'd do this:(1) Ditch the microscope for SSOP work. A good quality head-mount magnifier is more versatile, a known example is Optivisor. For the times you need higher magnification, see the low-cost handheld Carson magnifiers with LED light; available from Amazon. The price is deceptive, because some of the low-cost Carson ones perform better than some more expensive magnifiers from other manufacturers. I have a couple of microscopes, but they are nowhere near as convenient as the head magnifier.(2) I have a low-end Picoscope 2000 series, but personally I think I would rather go for the 12-bit Rigol or 12-bit Siglent 800-series oscilloscopes; you can power it from USB-C as I understand, which means you can use it outdoors easily if required. Cost would be under £450 GBP including tax, for 4 channels, but if there is more price sensitivity, then the 2-channel version would be £385 including tax.(3) You could get away with neither. If you're using a 12-bit Oscilloscope, then that, plus the processing gain, should allow you to see a lot of noise. You could use a DIY H-field probe and a homemade LISN, and a BNC T-piece and a 50-ohm terminator.All the above would cost under £500 total, including tax, (for the 2-channel 'scope, a genuine Optivisor, a Carson handheld illuminated magnifier, the BNC parts and a few $ for the H-field probe and LISN).

author: Skwide
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:10:58 pm
content: Hi shabaz,Thank you for your very detailed reply.1 - I had not considered a headband magnifier - it makes perfect sense. And less clutter and more portable for other jobs. I see there is one with 3.5x magnification and a light.2 - I did consider a Rigol as they live at a good price point - but the bulk was a concern. Granted they are nothing like CRT scopes of the 80s!Question - do either the low end Rigols or Siglent do FFT/frequency domain display? That was one of the cool things on the Picoscope, being the software has that as an option (I tried it in demo mode).3 - "You could use a DIY H-field probe and a homemade LISN, and a BNC T-piece and a 50-ohm terminator." - Brilliantly useful info - thank you - I can google this.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:25:34 pm
content: On the microscope, the published images look nice. I have a variety of optical ones, including a Nikon dissecting scope, but only use them for very close-up inspection and photography. For assembly work, I only use my Optivisor with 2x lens for 603 and QFN's. I haven't tried smaller.You will notice in pictures of jewelers and so forth, that their arms are elevated relative to the usual working height of 30" bench. It helps. That is contrary to looking through an optical microscope. If it's video, the really cheap ones have a lot of distortion. I have just found it more comfortable with the Optivisor. The most important part of a head-mounted visor is to be sure it has a glass lens. Mine also has a swing down loop, but I rarely use it.No recommendations on the o'scope or SA. I have an old, unlocked, 4-channel Rigol that does pretty good. When looking for noise and infrequent things, I revert to my much older TDS 210, if the Rigol doesn't work, as it has much shorter latency.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:36:35 pm
content: Do you want toys or do you want tools to do actual work?If you want toys then all the stuff you listed is fine. Go have fun.If you want tools (on the low end), then get:1) 0.7-3X stereo zoom microscope with 10x eyepieces (or similar). Any brand is fine (Amscope, used ebay stuff, etc). Digital microscopes are not fun to work under, even for short periods of time.2) Rigol or Siglent scope. Flavor to taste. DS1000z is still more than most non-professional people will ever need.3) Siglent Spectrum analyzer with pre-compliance package. If you want to know if your EMI levels are "bad", then you need to know what "bad" means and have at least a chance of measuring amplitudes accurately enough. This is a deep deep rabbit hole for someone that has no experience, so heads up.All of that should cost under $3500-4000, with the spectrum analyzer being the most expensive by far (and the most questionably useful for normal people).Other stuff:Get a high end soldering iron. Metcal or JBC or something like that. Who cares what microscope you have if your soldering iron is one of those chisel tip wood burning jobs that plugs straight into the wall. You also need some sort of hot air. This can be less high end.Note: Picoscope is a real tool, but unless you plan on scripting a lot of stuff then a real bench scope will make you less crazy as a daily driver.

author: Skwide
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 09:07:21 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 11, 2025, 08:36:35 pmI appreciate the suggestions - but this is very much a hobby- my budget is about 1/10th of that.I am jealous of youtubers with cool labs in an entire room (and I have worked in a cool lab environment once, though my trade was/is software). Sadly I don't have the space of the funds.

author: Skwide
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 09:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 11, 2025, 08:25:34 pmAnother vote for the Optivisor - thank you.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:05:42 pm
content: Quote from: Skwide on February 11, 2025, 09:07:21 pmMaybe change your OP. When you say "Money is not super tight...", you might want to say "I only have a $300 budget".

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:15:59 pm
content: Quote from: Skwide on February 11, 2025, 08:10:58 pmHi, they do support FFT, and it seems quite reasonable from the screenshots dotted on the 'net (I don't have a specific good link, unfortunately). I think the FFT display will work out much better than the one with the 2000-series PicoScope (I can't recall the last time I ever tried that with the PicoScope; the 2000 series is a nice 'scope, but being at a very low price-point, has some limitations).

author: Skwide
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:27:23 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 11, 2025, 11:05:42 pmI guess...

author: Skwide
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 11, 2025, 11:15:59 pmThanks for that - I couldn't see it on the manufacturer's pages, or maybe I missed it... Time to watch some YouTube reviews...I think out of all the stuff I'm looking at, the 'scope would be the one most worth making an effort to choose well and maybe up the budget by a hundred quid... It would always be the most useful bit of gear...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: Skwide on February 11, 2025, 05:10:03 pmI would get at least 20 MHz of bandwidth because standard noise measurements are often specified from DC to 20 MHz. Beyond that, bandwidth is king and there is never enough. 50 MHz would not be wasted.QuoteGiven your application, I would rely on your DSO for low frequency FFT spectrum analysis rather than a separate instrument. Spend the money saved on more oscilloscope bandwidth.If you need greater sensitivity which is unlikely, a small DC to 20 or 50 MHz RF amplifier is not difficult to build now.

author: Sensorcat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 02:18:15 am
content: I agree to what has been written above about using the FFT function of a scope instead of a SA for your application range. Since the scope is the most important instrument, it is wise to invest a bit more, in order to avoid buying twice. Therefore, I would advise against the Picoscope 2204A, because it has too little bandwidth and acquisition memory. The choice between USB or standalone scope is a matter of personal working style, and since you are not a beginner, you can figure out if it is OK for you to not have a one-box solution and to operate the scope via computer.Bandwidth considerations: If the datasheet tells it is a x MHz scope, that does not mean 'good for signals of up to x MHz'. The specified bandwidth is the -3dB point (71%!) of a LP frequency response that is not otherwise specified, so better stay away from x, or as a buyer, have x if your signal goes up to perhaps x/2 or 2x/3. That applies to the highest frequency component, not 1/T_period, since the whole point of using a scope is to see waveforms, i.e. signals with harmonics. That means, for example, the 2204A is unsuitable to check distortion of a µP clock signal of an impressive 1MHz, because it lacks bandwidth to show if the edges are clean.Memory considerations: To some extend, more memory can be a workaround for trigger problems, because chances are better that an interesting signal is captured even if the desired trigger point does not work. For serial decode, it is useful to have enough memory, even better segmented memory, to capture all messages that belong together in a command sequence or the like. And for FFT, it is worth considering that, unilke a SA, it is not possible to select only a small target frequency range to measure. FFT always creates a spectrum from zero to f_Nyquist. You can zoom in, but the resolution will not increase. At maximum, a spectrum from s samples has s/2 points. So the 8KS of the 2204A are a severe limitation, while the 32MS of the 2206B are no limitation at all.

author: Skwide
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 01:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: Sensorcat on February 12, 2025, 02:18:15 amHi,Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. It's a fair point, regarding harmonics and the 1MHz signal. If I ditch the spectrum analyser, I could go to at least the Picoscope 2206B at 50MHz, 500MS/s and 32mega-samples of storage (the first model that makes a huge jump in sample RAM).Whilst it would clearly be cool to jump to the 100MHz version, I don't think I can justify another jump.I think that's that pretty much nailed down then

author: Skwide
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 01:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: Sensorcat on February 12, 2025, 02:18:15 amThank you so much for your thoughts - I've pretty much moved to "at least get the 50Mhz Picoscope" - I think more would be hard to justify price wise, but this model makes a huge jump in the sample RAM and 5 times the bandwidth.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 11:17:59 am
content: the picoscope is good but bought new you'll pay a lot for some models, better buy a real scope with the cash50mhz is very low BW, you should at least get 200Mhz, even a 100Mz is somewhat a minimum nowadays,some 100Mhz model can be hacked into their 200Mhz counterparts. saved $$$ here, just buy the 200Mhz probes on Amazonex: bought a 3406D costed 3400$ CAD, witch could have served to buy a better scope at this price for twice the bandwidth or hackable ones ... but a pico does have it's use ... this model was a minimum for the memory length, and i would say still not enough, would be nice to be able to expand it ... or even return it to pico and hey can you mod it for more memory depht ?the 2000 series are getting old ...sure you have a budget, but sometimes do wait, accumulate more and ... purchase better tools / equipment, check your present needs and mostly the future ones ...

author: xvr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 11:45:08 am
content: Picoscope is a good oscilloscope but it has its own drawback. Small story, based on my own experience - I bought Picoscope 3602B about 5-10 years ago. Almost all this time it didn't leave a table box. Requirement of having PC at working place and connect it to Picoscope was quite uncomfortable. So I ended up by buying handheld oscilloscope JDS2021A and keeping it on hand. It was used heavy, despite the fact that its technical specifications was much worse than Picoscope. Finally I bought Siglent SDS1104 and now I try to sell both Picoscope and JDS (without success unfortunately)

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 04:04:08 pm
content: Here is a pic of rigol (DS1054z) FFT with cheap amp from Amazon and near field probe built following Dave's video. Worked great to find noise sources but I wouldn't trust it to check noise amplitude.I have done this with Picoscope as well but it was over 10 years ago so can't say much about it. At the time, I was impressed with it's FFT and I really enjoyed having access through my desktop. Much easier to control it, measure levels, save recordings and great for longer recordings of battery drain, except when windows forces an update in the middle of one. The firmware guy damaged his computer or the scope at one point, I can't remember which.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 04:20:42 pm
content: If you want small and tidy along with a barn full of tools, check out Digilent's Analog Discovery3.https://digilent.com/shop/analog-discovery-3Click on the Features tab and pay particular attention to the 'Additional Features'. Dave has done videos on this. Google 'eevblog analog discovery 3'. There are some other links that may be useful.Download the Waveforms software and play with the various tools using the 'Demo' virtual device.It's an amazing tool and there are a number of add-on gadgets.