If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: diracshore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2012, 11:56:10 pm
content: Hi all,What is the most capable CAD suite for PCB design ? Regardless of cost and learning curve.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2012, 12:01:27 am
content: The answer is most likely going to be a package that is more expensive than most people's cars. Few people are going to answer what is best of those, as most have to use more reasonably priced packages.I can't justify more that a couple hundred dollars. DIPTrace has the least limitations in free use and reasonable upgrade costs. The board size limitation on Eagle is a killer and the software isn't worth the money they are charging to remove that. I won't pay that much to use a crappy 1980's UI.

author: harnon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2012, 12:17:30 am
content: Quote from: sacherjj on February 17, 2012, 12:01:27 amYeah, having only used Kicad, Eagle and Diptrace, I would have to say Diptrace. It has some annoyances but overall its pretty good and easy to use. Some of the more high end products may be better but until I win Euromillions I'll never know

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2012, 12:41:25 am
content: The "better" CAD packages have so many features that their learning curve is very steep.I don't know that many people get to make this sort of decision. If you're a small company, you end up using what you can afford. If you're (part of) a large company, you end up using something that was picked by someone else. You MIGHT get to voice some opinions if you happen to be somewhere during a transition; the company has clearly outgrown their current system and needs to upgrade to something else. But I suspect that "careful evaluation and comparison of several $10k CAD packages" is a rare occurrence.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2012, 01:00:13 am
content: Quote from: westfw on February 17, 2012, 12:41:25 amActually, it's more common than you'd think.When I was at Altium, it was quite common to hear about companies doing thorough evaluations on the top tier packages. Because they might generally be looking at kitting out entire departments or the whole company with the software etc, so it's going to be a very big expense for them. So you might end up with an evaluation committee and countless reports and comparisons before a decision is made. Would be awesome if companies made those comparison reports available!Dave.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2012, 03:30:14 am
content: has anyone compared which is better diptrace or autotrax? autotrax showed nice 3d render in their site (a hype or truth?) but i wont bother installing (need net4 and sp3) unless someone said its better than diptrace.http://kov.com/Download/DEX.aspxhttp://www.diptrace.com/download.php

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2012, 07:37:56 am
content: if you look at the AutoTrax yahoo group - it seems like interest have fallen sharply (or it is so great no one needs any support) ..But I do not know how great it is....

author: updatelee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2012, 10:55:32 am
content: Im currently using diptrace and wish I learned of it earlier, so much simpler and intuitive then eagle.

author: diracshore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2012, 04:11:59 am
content: How about Altium Designer 10 ? That looks pretty sweet. Does anyone have experiences, opinions ?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 26, 2012, 04:24:18 am
content: Quote from: diracshore on February 26, 2012, 04:11:59 amI used to work at Altium, and have used it for 20 years.The new AD10 software is pretty good, but can be unstable/buggy depending upon your machine configuration.And no bug fixes unless you pay for yearly subscription/maintenance.Altiums big problem is that it tries to do too much, so doesn't do much of anything really well these days.But the core PCB/SCH functionality is quite usable and works well enough. It is hopeless at simulation and signal integrity, and while it's embedded/FPGA stuff is novel and appears attractive at first glance, it's no good for anything serious. The new Vault library system will likely drive you nuts.Support is now questionable given who few good employees are left after the move to China.You have pay for all the features you won't need, it's all or nothing.Dave.

author: ChrisW
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2012, 04:45:43 am
content: I am slowly getting used to Eagle. It has a lot bigger community than Diptrace, unfortunately.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2012, 04:59:33 am
content: Quote from: ChrisW on February 26, 2012, 04:45:43 amI think the tide is shifting. I've only made board through to production with Eagle, but I don't plan on laying out another board in it.

author: diracshore
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2012, 07:02:21 am
content: Thanks Dave,What would you say is the best competing suite for designing and simulating boards with FPGAs,Cadence, Cadstar, Expedition or something else ?For designing enclosures for my products what is the most capable CAD I can invest my time in, again disregarding cost and learning curve ?Thom

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 26, 2012, 07:14:26 am
content: Quote from: diracshore on February 26, 2012, 07:02:21 amThe vendor tools are ultimately the best, and most are free.Altium was a just wrapper around the vendor tools anyway.Cadence, Cadstar, Expedition or something else ?If you want to simulate high speed FPGA stuff at the board level, e.g. DDR3 or something, then Atium is next to useless, and your Cadences et.al are a better bet.QuoteOne of Altiums strengths is it's 3D capability and mechanical integration, and it can do mechanical design rule checking too. i.e. does that connector fit through the hole in my panel etc.Not sure how the other packages compare in that respect, but I doubt you can beat Altium for the price for that.They have demo videos showing off this, and it does mostly work.Sadly though they haven't focussed on refining the practical stuff like 3D stuff off in recent times, their heads have been in the clouds, literally.Dave.

author: harnon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2012, 07:46:53 am
content: Quote from: sacherjj on February 26, 2012, 04:59:33 amI think the biggest issue is still eagle being the defacto standard for open source schematics. I have eagle on my computer just to open up schematics from the web!As far as community, yeah it's still much smaller, but honestly its so straight forward to use I haven't really had to rely on the community. Making libraries is dead simple and The manual is pretty good. Novarm have some simple tutorials on youtube and I've made a tutorial (in the dip trace forum section) around creating libraries and I'm thinking of making another one about hierarchical blocks

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2012, 01:55:38 pm
content: Quote from: diracshore on February 26, 2012, 07:02:21 amI have used Solidworks since its beginning. I can highly recomend it as extremely capable for any level of 3D Cad work. There are also add ons for 3D cable routing in electronic assemblies. They are very customer focused and add hundreds of customer driven enhancements each rev.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2014, 01:28:32 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on February 17, 2012, 07:37:56 amThe user forum has always been active. See the stats inhttps://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Autotrax/infoYou could compare to Diptracehttps://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/diptr/infoAutoTRAXhttps://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Autotrax/infouser group has 2969 users and 29 posts in the last week.However I have now created a new forum athttp://forum.kov.com/This is a lot easier to use and no adsComes with pictures and videos...RegardsIliya Kovac

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2014, 02:14:29 pm
content: There's still people using that ? Wow. That dates back from the dos days.i did many a board wit that. version 1.61. came on two floppies.Very distant ancester of Altium

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2014, 03:24:13 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 23, 2014, 02:14:29 pmSorry, but AutoTRAX DEX has nothing to do with the defunct Autotrax (DOS) from Protel (now Altium)Protel never registered the Autotrax trade mark and many years ago abandoned it.I took out the US trademark 17th. July, 2001 Reg No 2,469,410.Altium then got brassed out and decided to dump their Autotrax on their web site. Why? Spite? Or to cannibalize their sales of AltiumDownload Altium Autotrax fromhttp://techdocs.altium.com/display/ALEG/Legacy+DownloadsDowload AutoTRAX DEX fromhttp://www.kov.com/download

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2014, 01:38:15 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on October 23, 2014, 03:24:13 pmTo be expected.As I've written in the Altium threads a few times, many of us use Altium as it is quite powerful & has become a de facto standard for many medium & large corporations. However many of us actually dislike the software (it has many, many areas that could/need to be improved) & many of us dislike Altium the Company.Even Dave (who worked for Altium) has voiced his views in these threads relating to where Altium went wrong & what they should concentrate on to improve their software.We all hoped that things would improve a lot when the founder CEO Nick Martin was booted from the board. I actually believe that things have improved since his departure, just that the improvements have been too little, too late.I have also noted that the code was well written (as it not bloated) in version 6.9, however using AD14 I note that the code has become much more bloated. Looking at the few new features that have been added, I believe that the code has become more bloated (& subsequently runs much slower) mainly due to poor programming.The move to China was not a good decision. Hopefully the recent decision to move (back) to the USA will go a long way to improving Altium's coding skills.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2014, 01:49:25 am
content: If money is no object then Cadence Allegro with all the bells and whistles, but it will cost you as much as a full time engineer for a whole year. I've seen it but have not used it myself, but I saw our engineers in a previous job do thermal analysis, stress analysis and all kinds of analysis using it. Of course it was at Uni so they probably got it for free or heavily discounted.Not sure how it has evolved since then since this was 20 years ago. But seems like it's the only choice for high GHz range designs.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 03:01:10 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on October 24, 2014, 01:38:15 amI have a belief that as software progresses eventually the 'technical debt' becomes so overwhelming that ‘critical mass’ is reached and it is almost impossible to add stuff without breaking it.The first step on the road to the big bang is the initial development team jumping ship or what appears to be in Altium’s case, made to ‘walk the plank’.So having a new team in a foreign country who speaks a different language can only make things worse.This is when somebody comes up with the idea tore-writethe software.I must admit, that’s what I did when I went from AutoTRAX EDA, written in C++/MFC to AutoTRAX DEX, written in C#, C++, C++/CLI. However, I did this because I thought using C++/MFC was slowing things down and .NET offers huge advantages. Also EDA was designed in the classic schematic/pcb split program mode. I did this as I was learning the trade. But I soon realized that this split is all wrong, so I did some ‘blue sky’ thinking and came up with DEX. I unified data.I have spent a lot of time designing and documenting DEX. Even though it’s just me I use Microsoft Team Foundation Server, Source Control and the Agile scrum method: but no daily stand-up meeting – I would look stupid standing by myself. I don’t want to reach ‘critical mass’.The problem with writing a program that does it all for everyone is impossible. You need to pick a solution that fits your needs. It's no point buying a Ferrari to do the school run. Horses for courses.So there really is no simple answer to 'If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be?' You need to decide what you want to make and then pick the tool.Having worked in 3D for the last 18 years, I see that all animation studios use many different tools. Each one fit for purpose. However in the 3D industry they do not have the obsessive secrecy for the file formats and working with other. Eagle is a rare exception in the PCB industry. The aim is to lock you in. (the Trojan horse - appears free at first but something comes out to bite ya later on ). DEX is open XML for all files.I have not used Altium’s designer much but the brochures are large and glossy. The online videos seem more like video brochures than actual tutorials.P.S. What is Nick Martin doing now; rewriting Altium?

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 12:06:12 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on October 25, 2014, 03:01:10 pmUnless you have some inside info that the rest of us don't know about, I believe he has just retired as a very wealthy (but bitter) old man.Quote from: DerekG on April 30, 2014, 09:16:00 pmWe (me) actually thought that you were writing code for Altium's new product CircuitMaker. Their new ribbon menus look just like your's in AutoTRAX DEX 2020

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 08:49:49 pm
content: Went to the CircuitMaker, looks like they are going to canabalize Altium Designer sales.http://circuitmaker.com/Says its free.Went though several pages of sales stuff (Well that's Altium) filled in download details and see this? Free to start,and extendable through purchased enhancements, so you can expand the software as your designs become more complex and challenging.Then get this is the email...Welcome to the CircuitMaker community! By registering and showing your support, we can keep this thing moving in the right direction and bring you the best tool we can, as fast as possible.Right now,CircuitMaker is in closed beta.Signing up puts you in the group of potential testers for our closed beta. You’ll be notified when you’re chosen to participate.This is what I think...http://kov.com/Info/CancunFree, but no free!Why do they feel a need to write yet another program? They have trashed several. In closed Beta! Maybe not ready for Christmas

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 09:34:54 pm
content: Quote from: diracshore on February 16, 2012, 11:56:10 pmThat's an unrealistic question. The really large and capable packages have learning curves measured in months, benefit from dedicated admin/support staff, and cost more than you earn.What is right for a 10-layer mixed RF/analogue + 10Gb/s digital board isn't right for a hobbyist.For example, by "really capable" I would expect that in the schematic I could annotate "this track is 50ohms, no vias, stubs less than 5mm", and the layout engine would enforce those constraints.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 12:28:22 am
content: If it's regardless of cost, then simply get somebody else to do the design! EasyThe question really is too nebulous.Get the tool for the job. No point in using a NC drilling M/C when a simple battery electric screwdriver with a hex fitting bit will do. Or even a hand powered bit. KIS principle.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 12:57:25 am
content: Quote from: diracshore on February 16, 2012, 11:56:10 pmI've used SMartwork, Tango which became P-CAD, Pads 7.0 under DOS, something that ran on the Amiga, SciCards (which as far as I can tell was the first commercial PCB package?), Pantheon Intercept, Altium, PADS under windows, and Allegro.I'd say overall Cadence Allegro for PCB, warts and all. I'd like to have the choice to use Altium's schematic entry, though.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 09:09:32 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on October 28, 2014, 12:28:22 amActually it is KISS, which in English has two valid meaning depending on whether there is added stressKeep It SimpleandStupidKeep It Simple,youSTUPIDperson

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 11:23:41 am
content: I was trying to be polite. The second S can offend and is often meant to!

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 11:34:09 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on October 25, 2014, 03:01:10 pmYou don't work for Tesco do you?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 07:40:13 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on October 28, 2014, 11:23:41 amYup

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 08:58:48 pm
content: Oops. Freudian slip or parapraxes. However, if we were in France - Um Um

author: cloudscapes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 02:14:56 pm
content: been using diptrace since 2007. it has its quirks but I have no reason to switch.

author: TunerSandwich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2014, 04:27:36 pm
content: It might be worth it to switch to the layout software that your supplier uses, in house. For example, we are evaluating OrCAD (Cadence) right now, because a supplier for our new project uses it in house. This would save us a lot of time and hassle in creating libraries/pads/etc. Especially for completely proprietary parts.A lot of it comes down to raw/total costs. Is it cheaper/more cost effective to payout for licenses, to gain an existing library? I suppose that is to be determined on a specific basis.If the vendor supplied eval board contains the topology you want to implement....it might be worth it?At any rate, I find it useful to talk to applications/engineering at various vendors, to gain insight into these things. Sometimes (for us) it's not about what is "the best" (technically)....the bottom line usually boils down to the bottom line ($).Fundamentally they are all CAD and if a major supplier/engineering firm was able to use a specific package for development, then chances are it does "work"....P.S. if I had to choose one, and only one, it would be whichever one has the largest support packages for the devices I most typically work with.....if the cost was no object and the dev times were infinite....it would be Dassault Systems.....the integration between mech and electrical design is amazing, and their simulations actually work (and integrate into mech physics). Probably OrCAD for layout etc....P.P.S. if the company credit card was fully loaded and the moon was the target......http://www.solidworks.com/sw/products/details.htm?productID=2162

author: Layoutguy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 02, 2015, 02:55:22 am
content: I've used the PADS layout platform for many years in a busy service bureau environment, and I'm very satisfied with the capabilities after nearly 30 years of use. PADS was a low-cost system when first introduced ~1986, but it's a bit pricey these days. I used Racal-Redac systems for 5 years prior to PADS, and most of you wouldn't believe how expensive layout systems were back in the early 1980s! Over the years, PADS software continually evolved and changed ownership several times, and it's now a Mentor product. Of course, PADS has its quirks & limitations, but despite evaluating several other leading brands, I have not been convinced to jump ship. I don't know how capable the stripped-down entry versions are, but the top-end toolset manages the broad spectrum of complex board types we see. Sounds like I'm promoting PADS, but I'll be the first to say that PADS is just one of the many capable platforms available. They all have strengths and weaknesses. You have to make a choice and stick with it for a while, since database conversions between brands can be a hassle.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 06:46:30 am
content: These type of questions....Unless there is a person that has used ALL of them, then that will be the right person to answer, other than that.... well just opinions.David.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 11:51:43 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 08, 2015, 04:03:03 amThis is opinion only, just as the poster immediately above correctly writes.I use for Altium, Proteus & DipTrace, all for work.Proteus is my favourite & Altium my least favourite.I'm currently working through with Novarm (the developers of DipTrace) to truly bring their package into the professional arena.As far as company insight into the future goes, Novarm is number one & sad to say it, Altium comes in last.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2015, 12:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on March 08, 2015, 11:51:43 amIt is nice to hear that. I also like your inputs on their forum.It seems it is a small company with young developers and they should get in touch with some experienced EDA professional. I am wondering if any of those guys has ever designed some professional PCBs (besides hobby projects).Honestly, I must say that after the first positive impression with Diptrace I can not get over some bugs or missing features (e.g. sheet connectors, PCB update from library etc.). There are also some bugs which were reported more than five years ago and still without any fix. For example copper pours and DXF export (for our CNC).

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2015, 02:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: Warhawk on March 09, 2015, 12:53:25 pmYes, the two co-founders are Ukraine graduates with mechanical & electronic engineering degrees. They do rely on users who push DipTrace to its limits to learn what needs advancing next.QuoteI use copper pours extensively & the update 2.4 last year provided significant improvements in this area. Perhaps start a new thread & point me to it & I will assist with working through any problems you are experiencing.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2015, 02:34:37 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on March 09, 2015, 02:01:28 pmThen they better hurry up before their president burns them in the civil war.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 08:31:26 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 09, 2015, 02:34:37 pmLuckily a friendly Russian president may help them. The Czechs have a lot of experience with that from former times

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2015, 11:47:01 am
content: For those who don't know, some of the best of Altium's programmers are also Ukrainian. The universities in Eastern Europe produce some of the worlds best programmers.I've heard in the grape vine that some/a few/many of Altium's programmers are currently wanting to emigrate to the USA.

author: Takto
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 30, 2015, 01:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on March 08, 2015, 06:46:30 amExactly what I was thinking. How does it help to hear all these different opinions? There is no real answer anyway...

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2015, 09:48:37 am
content: If cost is not an issue, I would use DxDesigner and Expedition from Mentor graphics. I have used it when it was called AcePlus, then VeriBest and now DxDesigner.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2015, 10:17:45 am
content: Quote from: Takto on April 30, 2015, 01:04:30 pmOpinions backed by caveats are valuable. For example,"Mental Gruffics is complete and will enable you to do signal integrity planning, but expect to spend 6 months learning it and preferably have a sysadmin to care for it""CrossCAD is used by some large organisations and has an active community which is continually adding new features, albeit in an ad-hoc fashion""Vulture is widely accepted by vendors, but once you hit a limit your pocket is lightened"will enable different people to concentrate/ignore different options, based on their needs.OTOH, "I use X, and so should you" is valueless.

author: jmarkwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2015, 11:13:05 am
content: Quote from: Deathwish on May 13, 2015, 10:42:10 amProtel is called Altium nowadays. It also has a new spin-off called Circuit Studio (and Circuit Maker).