my first (real oscilloscope) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: eukatech
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 04:33:01 am
content: I have done some homework on a good oscilloscope, the Rigol DS1054Z seems a good choice, but i have also seen the siglent sds1104x-e, which i think is newer.Any idea's on what to get for my first real oscillloscope is very much welcome.. thank you in advanceEukatech

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 05:14:11 am
content: There's been lots of discussion here comparing the two:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/is-this-oscilloscope-perhaps-the-best-for-the-beginner/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1104z-vs-siglent-sds1104x-e-any-reviews/(contains discussion of the 1054z and 1104z)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-oscilloscope-for-hobbyist/More can be found using the forum's Advanced Search.I think the general consensus is that both a good choices for a beginner. The Siglent may have a few more plusses than the Rigol. Whether or not those plusses are worth the extra money depends entirely on your budget and how much you value them.

author: eukatech
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 05:37:39 am
content: Thank you for the reply.. more homework to do

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 06:45:04 am
content: Quote from: eukatech on February 25, 2021, 05:37:39 amApparently HPAK will be releasing a low cost scope sometime next month. It might be worth waiting to see what the latest technology can offer in a low costs scope. This assumes that Keysights idea of low cost aligns with yours.It has been sometime since a new scope has been released and technology flys by so maybe the scope form Keysight will be competitive. As far as I know no specs have been released yet.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 12:10:55 pm
content: Most DSOs now have the Trigger Time Reference Point permanently stuck in the middle of the screen. I'm puzzled that anyone tolerates this.At least some Keysight models have a Left, Center or Right setting.

author: sahko123
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 01:35:39 pm
content: The 1054z can be upgraded for free. And in terms of the rigger reference iy can be moved left or right and in the middle by default. Its a scope i highly recommend especially for 4 channel if it helps

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 04:24:50 pm
content: The SDS1104X-E ($499) can be unlocked for 200 MHz and that may be worth the additional cost. The 50 MHz DS1054Z ($349) can be unlocked for 100 MHz and that may be adequate for most hobbyists. The Siglent is a newer design and purportedly has a more responsive user interface.There are reviews all over the place. Google for 'sds1104x-e vs ds1054z' and select videos. Dave has done a review on both units.For my money, now that the Siglent is available and I already have the Rigol, I would spend the extra money for the improved interface and additional bandwidth. You can't have too much bandwidth!

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2021, 09:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: sahko123 on February 25, 2021, 01:35:39 pmSo far, I have not found the setting mentioned in the Ds1000Z manual.With my HP DSO, the "Left" setting causes the trigger point's default position to be on the left side of the screen, where it should be, regardless of Time Base setting.I occasionally set it to the Middle. I could not tolerate it being always in the middle.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 01:57:02 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on February 25, 2021, 09:48:24 pmI have the DS1054Z and the trigger point can be set anywhere you want including off the edge of the screen. The red triangle stops at the edge of the screen but the display can continue to be moved. That makes sense, how could the red triangle be displayed off the screen?Pressing the Horizontal Position button re-centers the display.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 03:04:11 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 26, 2021, 01:57:02 amIf the Trigger Point is moved to the left of the screen for example, will it stay in the same place when the Time Base is changed?

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 03:27:50 am
content: This is from the Keysight InfiniiVision 1200 X-Series and EDUX1052A/G Oscilloscopes User's Guide."In the Acquire menu, press Time Ref; then, select:• Left — the time reference is set to one major division from the left edge of thedisplay.• Center — the time reference is set to the center of the display.• Right — the time reference is set to one major division from the right edge ofthe display."I cant find anything like the same setting in the Rigol manual.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 03:35:43 am
content: Page 1-15 of User Manual here:https://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/DS1000Z_UserGuide_EN.pdfThe Horizontal Position knob moves the trigger point location on the screen. It is not as sophisticated as the Keysight.The idea of moving the trigger point to one full division from the left edge is pretty much how I have been doing it. Moving the trigger point to the extreme left means there is some question about where the trigger really occurred.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 03:59:00 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on February 26, 2021, 03:04:11 amI don't have a good way to set this up. The trigger point attaches itself to the trace and moves with the edge which moves with t/div. The problem is, the waveform is periodic, which edge is doing the triggering, there's a lot of them.I should probably set up a pulse with a width much shorter than the period so that leading edge to leading edge is longer than the display at lowest t/div. Then do a single shot, change the t/div and take another single shot. Something like that...At the moment, the answer is: Yes, my trigger point moves around as the t/div knob is adjusted. That may change when I figure out a way to set up an appropriate waveform. Or, it just may be a fact that the point moves with t/div.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 04:02:43 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on February 26, 2021, 03:27:50 amI can't speak for the Rigol despite having had one, but I don't believe that it had those particular selections. My Siglent 1104X-E does not either, but neither does my Tektronix TPS2024. My old 2221 and 2221A do have those selections.To address an earlier question, on the Siglent there is a REFERENCE POS option under the UTILITY menu that allows you to select what happens when you change the vertical gain or horizontal timebase. If you have that set to HORIZONTAL FIXED POSITION, then if you move the trigger position to the left it will remain there as you change timebases. The other option is HORIZONTAL FIXED DELAY, which works the other way. No idea if Rigol included that option.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2021, 04:08:21 am
content: With my HP, if the Trigger Reference is set to Left and the Trigger Position is set to the same spot, if will stay there regardless of Time Base setting.I always wonder how difficult it is to have this Trigger Reference setting added to budget priced DSOs.Its absence would be a total deal killer for me when comes time to replace my 22 years old HP.A quote from Keysight."The time reference position sets the initial position of the trigger event withinacquisition memory and on the display, with delay set to 0."

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 08:22:16 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on February 25, 2021, 12:10:55 pmBecause it's a DSO and therefore allows display of pre and post trigger waveforms.A Zero s position is the most versatile without doubt however that doesn't limit you to where you place the zero s position but unless you can lock it there when you change the timebase it can zip off the display or move closer to the center.A few entry level scopes allow for locking the zero s position but by no means all.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 04:34:17 pm
content: Just a thought...Suppose I am on the 1us/div time scale and I move the trigger point left 4 us. Then I change the time scale to, say, 100ns/div. In effect, this would require the trigger point to move clear off the screen if it were to remain 4 us to the left. That seems like a bad idea so the programmers just picked a point and dropped the trigger point at that time. At least it's on the screen!I suppose there are two ways of thinking about it: First, you are moving the trigger point by time or, second, you are moving the trigger point by location on the screen. Location on the screen seems more intuitive but I'll bet I can make a case for time. After all, (almost) everything we do with a scope is view some signal as a function of time.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 04:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: eukatech on February 25, 2021, 05:37:39 amYou are going to have to drive a stake in the ground. There will always be a better scope at a lower price coming to market about a day after you buy a different model. The problem is, you won't know if the unit is coming to market this afternoon, this week or even two years from now.The only thing you can do is look at what's available right now.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 05:00:33 pm
content: I am waiting for a new oscilloscope from GW-instek, a company that i trust a bit more then siglent or rigol.Next week or in 2 years i dont care as long as it looks better then the current scopes they have.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 07:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 27, 2021, 04:34:17 pmNo.Consider you are monitoring several channels all somehow related to one another with say some analog signal crossing into the digital domain. Did you set the tigger to the correct channel or any one if it doesn't matter.Let's say it was the last time related channel and you Single shot triggered on it to capture each step in the analog to digital circuit.With a 0s trigger position it is clear all the previous time event signals are captured on the display whereas for a CRO for arguments sake only the event the channel triggered on is visible and not the events that led up to it.Of all the features in any scope the trigger is your most powerful tool and those that move from CRO's to DSO's have to learn this to use a DSO to full advantage where a DSO is the winner without dispute.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 27, 2021, 07:44:01 pmIn no way was I trying to downplay the utility of seeing the pre-trigger signals. In some cases they are vitally important.Rather, I was trying to come up for an explanation for the trigger point indicator moving when the time/div value is changed. I can move the trigger point to the far left (or anywhere else) but when I change time/div, it will move. Unless, of course, it is dead center of the screen. My suspicion is that the designers are setting the trigger point in time relative to the center of the screen. If this is so, of course the location will change with time/div.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:07:57 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 27, 2021, 09:05:19 pmUnderstood and as mentioned before some DSO's allow you to lock the 0s position for it not to move when the timebase is changed. All X-E's and 2kX Plus and 5kX have this feature.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on February 27, 2021, 09:07:57 pmGood to know! Just another reason I drool over the SDS1104X-E. One of these days I'm going to buy one just so I can compare it to the DS1054Z myself.The thing is, my use case is simply looking at squiggly lines. Some of the experiments we did in Charlotte's thread were way outside my normal usage but very interesting. It's amazing how much stuff the modern DSO can do.Just the integration is an interesting topic. I can solve some integral calculus problems on a scope. Who knew?

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 10:36:46 pm
content: I didn't really know what I was looking for previously.This is from the SDS1000X-E Series user manual."Press the Horizontal softkey to select Fixed Delay or Fixed Position.Fixed Position: when the timebase is changed, the oscilloscope will keep the horizontaloffset indicator stationary.Fixed Delay: when the timebase is changed, the oscilloscope will have the horizontaloffset indicator move with the trigger point"

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 11:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 27, 2021, 09:45:48 pmUntil you move to a DSO and see all they can do compared to a CRO most don't know and think a DSO is just for looking at squiggly lines also however once we construct an instrument in the digital domain so many features can be added albeit in menu structures that aren't always obvious to a user coming from CRO's.However whatever we need to access/change/adjust are grouped in menus that encompass the broader subject like Display, Acquisition, Math, Decode and especially Utility where mostly features that don't pertain to actual scope use are added.Some little time is needed to get to know where all features are tucked away but once you realise what a feature is associated with then you know which menu it's likely to be in but so often we just want to get on and use the scope rather than explore the feature set so to know where to find stuff for when we need it and make use of the scope better suited to our needs.Quote from: xavier60 on February 27, 2021, 10:36:46 pmYes because you have been too conservative to fully explore the feature set.We need remember that we have a Default button so when we go exploring the feature set and end up with setting we don't want Default allows us to quickly return to known settings if we've applied something we don't understand or don't like.With the current range of newer Siglent scopes we can also set a User Default so to return the scope to just now you like it instead of the default factory settings which is very useful when a project is completed and you want to get back to your favourite settings. This feature is in the Save/Recall>Save menu.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 11:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: xavier60 on February 26, 2021, 03:27:50 amI just looked up this series of scopes and was surprised at the value. Anybody considering a Siglent, Owon or whatever, should seriously consider what Keysight has on offer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 01:07:36 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 27, 2021, 11:59:43 pmAnd get less for more $ ?It's clear you need to be more than a wizard to comprehend the info in datasheets.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:36:19 am
content: I recently purchased an Owon hand held DSO. I was already aware of the Trigger Referenced being stuck at center screen.I was caught totally off guard by a much more annoying behavior.In Auto mode, it displays a frozen waveform for a full second after loss of trigger.I first noticed it while trying to quickly probe rails for ripple, having to wait a second to show an active trace after first displaying a frozen initial disturbance.So if you think that this behavior would annoy you, then inquire about it.I realize that it's very unlikely to apply to models being discussed here.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 03:17:19 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on February 28, 2021, 02:36:19 amDisplay Persistence turned ON ?

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 03:24:12 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 28, 2021, 03:17:19 amNo, Owon say that it can't be disabled.I realize that a displayed waveform has to persist for some finite time in Auto, depending on Time Base setting.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 04:17:37 am
content: Quote from: xavier60 on February 28, 2021, 03:24:12 amHmmm, like you I'd expect any waveform to disappear as soon as it was removed from an input.

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 05:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 27, 2021, 09:05:19 pmIf what you are interested in what is happening at the trigger point then having the trigger point at a fixed location on screen as you zoom in is what you want. That's not necessarily what you want though - what if you are interested in what happens some time either side of the trigger point? As you zoom in what you are interested in could disappear off screen.For the other method, think "put what you are interested in at the middle of the screen". Then as you zoom in or out it will stay in the same location. Since what is happening at the trigger point is frequently what people are interested in DSOs have a 'centre the trigger' function.Whichever method you use, there's always going to be annoyances (e.g. lots of scrolling) if you're not looking at something it's suited to. Ideally, scopes would support both methods of working and have a way to select your preferred as the default.