ReflowR not delivered after 3 months?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 01:51:27 pm
content: Hi all,I Have ordered an ReflowR 3 months ago and after 3 months it is still not delivered.Anyone else haveing problems with ReflowR delivery?I have ordered an ReflowR on april 25 and july 28 itis still not delivered.I have ordered it on many-maker.com.Anyone experience with this company??Thanks.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 02:18:24 pm
content: They appear to be shipping, but quite slowly - check the comments (and last update) on his IGG campaignhttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/modern-electronics-reflowr-stem-inspiration-kit-technology#/commentsLafras appears to be poor at communicating, and probably shouldn't have started pre-orders on his website or Tindie before shipping all the IGG units - or at least made the potential shipping delays clearer. He is even further behind on his other project (Desktop Injection Moulding)

author: L1L1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 08:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: qno on June 28, 2017, 01:51:27 pmI think the main issue here is that you are living in a parallel universe, one month ahead in the future.many-maker.com does not know yet that you have not received your ReflowR after 3 months, because for them only two months have elapsed.I assume you have been traveling at near light speed. This is a common issue.

author: mboich
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2017, 04:44:56 am
content: I have also been waiting many months. I ordered the unit in December, 2016. I after bugging Lafras, he assured me in April it would ship in a week or so. Then he posted that he'd had some issues (I can understand that), and promised again on May 23 that my unit would ship in a week or so. Now I see that he's taking orders on Tindie, promising to ship within two days. Something isn't quite right here.

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2017, 05:11:03 am
content: Why should he hurry? He already HAS your money.crowdfunding

author: mboich
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2017, 04:55:05 pm
content: Update: I emailed Lafras, and he sent me a picture of my unit, and of a shipping box addressed to me, so I am hopeful that my unit will soon be shipping. I'll update when I receive it. (or when too much time elapses, whichever comes first.)- Mike

author: prof
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 07:02:36 am
content: I also ordered one in May and I it was put in the mail quite quickly. However according to the tracking it is stuck somewhere since May...

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 06:33:39 pm
content: My parallel universe finally has caught up with me.We have passed July 2017 and still no package with a ReflowR.Had news from a friend who spends time in SA occasionally.Infrastructure is slowly but very surly doing down for reasons not to be discussed here.Maybe it is still somewhere in transit?

author: mboich
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2017, 11:42:45 pm
content: I did receive mine on Aug 1. I haven't been done much yet, but it looks like it may work as advertised.Mike B

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 04:06:04 am
content: Seems like it would be easier to hack an electric skillet than start from scratch. Seriously, I don't see complicated this thing can be. Slab of aluminum, heating element and a control circuit.

author: mboich
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 01:55:29 am
content: As Eric Raymond used to say, "Linux is free if your time has no value." You could probably hack an electric skillet, but I have other projects that I want to work on, and my initial experience with the Reflowr has been quite good.I just assembled their little demo project, and it worked as advertised.- Mike B

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 03:51:20 am
content: I disagree with Eric Raymond. I gave up on M$ for a reason back in 1995.The point wasn't so much about what you do with your time as much as it was a commentary on there should be no reason for the back log on a technical/engineering level. At the end of the day it is still an electric skillet.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 06:25:12 pm
content: If you are still waiting for your ReflowR, this might be of interestI did a review video in collaboration with MickMake of an early sample unit

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 09:19:56 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 05, 2017, 04:29:02 amMeh..... A guy quoting the value of time after waiting three months for delivery. After seeing the video I'd be much more comfortable with a hacked skillet. It's one thing to do a postage stamp sized board in the middle and another to do a board that takes up 3/4 of the surface area on that thing. They didn't test to see how even the heat is across the surface.

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 03:22:21 pm
content: Meh, its a poor implementation... Also the pcb in video looks dirty cheap without ground plane, tiny components.I don't see why its better than a T962 or from a hacked oven with an external kickass MPC controller. Its a nice preheater, coffee heater, pie baker, not a reflow device. (For app I have no words...)My final project in uni is a reflow controller and I have studied every reflow controller available on the web! Not finished yet but it will be open source. Some early imageshttps://imgur.com/a/mzya5

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 03:59:03 pm
content: I saw one blog where a small company gave up on their fairly expensive reflow oven and moved to the frying pan because the oven was damaging parts. The control is the easy part. Getting a device to follow that profile is another. Notice the slow ramp down times in this video? The slow shipping could have been them trying to solve the issue because that device should not have been that hard to produce. You could turn an electric iron over and do the same thing. The iron would probably have a worse cool down time since it is designed to hold heat.Your control looks nice and well thought out. Moving to surface mount is probably inevitable for most of us so I've been looking into this. May I suggest you don't stop at the control but continue on to do a complete project? A device that follows the curve set on the controller?

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 04:15:07 pm
content: wow, not too impressed with that sample unit in the vid

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 04:23:46 pm
content: Well there are 2 ways to control an oven with PID:1 is by modeling an oven and hope that it will follow the curve. If you supply the oven too its ok.2 is too make a learning routine in controller, or give customers the ability to adjust PID gains to get a decent result.The trap for young players is that ovens are not linear 2nd order systems, they got an "s" curve at beginning which may cause fast rise up since PID's error goes bigger n bigger and at the end its so hard to remove the heat.My idea was to add many points, each point can have different gain set so you can achieve a nice ramp with high gains and before reaching the limit lower the gains to remove overshoot. So you make a few trials, you build the profile for you hardware and then you are good to go.If it doesn't follow the line you tweak P, I, D on problematic point and its fixed without destroying other phases.Not easy for newbies but for engineers its absolute freedom. So hardware doesn't matter as long as it can heat up quickly.Yea I am gonna make it a complete set (hacked oven, no time to build my own). It may look nice n dandy in custom pcb but its just a atmega2560 with FTDI, micro SD, buck converter, a 3.5" nextion display and 2 max31856 thermocouple readers. Software on Arduino so everyone will be able to make it with modules from ebay. But that's another topic, when its completely bug free and got a perfect curve I will make a topic. I hope in next month.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 05:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: hermit on August 06, 2017, 03:59:03 pmI bought a ramp and soak temperature controller on eBay, and a spool of tiny thermocouple wire. My first run fried the boards because the PC board material absorbed a lot more IR than the thermocouple. So, I poked the thermocouple junction into a through hole on the board, and got excellent reflow, as the controller was actually measuring the board temperature. I use this in a GE toaster oven bought from Walmart that has 4 linear heating elements, two top and two on the bottom. I have done somewhere around 1500 boards in this setup.I also use it to pre-bake bare boards that have been in stock for some time to prevent moisture from causing blisters.Jon

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 06:03:12 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on August 06, 2017, 05:28:20 pmI had wondered about methods for measuring board temp instead of air/surface_plate. This seems too simple to work well.How well does the oven 'lose heat' in following the cool down curve?

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 07:00:14 pm
content: I do the same on mounting holes.In JEDEC standard all temperatures refers toIC bodyplaced as "live bug", so if you want to follow these standards you have to measure at an IC body, according to its dimensions there are slightly differences +-10°C.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 08:20:31 pm
content: I don't see the IC temp being relevant except to make sure you don't exceed the temp IC's are made to withstand. Your solder doesn't care what the temp of the body is. It cares about the board and leg temps. With the hotplate method described here you are probably getting a much lower body temp than in an oven anyhow.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 08:29:44 pm
content: A retired EE I knew bought a PID for his brew system. He finally gave up on it and did an Arduino solution. He used PWM to keep it from overshooting and to maintain a tight control. The closer it got to temp the lower the duty cycle went. Since he was doing 6+ gallons of liquid he could use a nice slow frequency because the system was mostly insulated and the sheer volume helped. With a board the same thing would work but probably at a higher frequency duty cycle that would be based on element output vs heat loss. You would only have to set the frequency according to that. Perhaps a way to set the temps the duty cycles kick in at depending on oven would be good too.

author: mickmake
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2017, 01:47:03 am
content: Quote from: WastelandTek on August 06, 2017, 04:15:07 pmTo be fair this was a 6 month old unit. It's taken me this long to getting around to doing a proper review of it and Kean prompted me to look at it.Lafras is pretty open and transparent about issues to be expected so you have to hand it to him and he's trying to get out a product.This is one of the issues that most makers come across when wanting to make a product - going from bench prototype to "consumer grade" product is a quantum leap.If it's your first rodeo, then you're in for a rough ride.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2017, 01:54:08 am
content: Quote from: hermit on August 06, 2017, 06:03:12 pmThe cool down is too slow. After a minute or two, I open the door just a bit, and then open it more when board temp reaches 180 C or so.Well, too simple sounds good to me! I'm measuring the actual temperature of the board, so the only problem is some areas run a little hotter than others. But, I've found the right settings to get reliable soldering of multiple small boards.I usually do 6 small boards at a time.Jon

author: qno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2017, 10:16:53 am
content: Success,I have received my ReflowR last week 11-10-2017.Works great.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2017, 10:17:46 am
content: Very glad to hear that

author: ArdRhi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 08:27:35 pm
content: I ordered my ReflowR in December of 2016.Still nothing delivered.I've sent emails and polite requests to Lafras. ZILCH.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 02:31:08 am
content: That sucks! Is that one of the ones he was saying got "lost in the post"?His earlier campaign is also in a sorry state - and many backers there pledged $1000 or more.https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/go-from-3d-printing-to-desktop-injection-moulding-diy-entrepreneur#/

author: 8bitgasm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 11:07:29 pm
content: Surprised to see this thread, I ordered a ReflowR in November and it came in ~2 weeks to Canada. Disappointed to see so many people with issues - I wonder what set me apart.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2018, 04:23:05 am
content: Quote from: 8bitgasm on January 17, 2018, 11:07:29 pmSeems to be luck of the draw. But in reality it was probably based on where you bought it, when, and the chosen shipping method.I'm guessing if you bought it in November that was via Tindie?

author: 8bitgasm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 04:31:08 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on January 18, 2018, 04:23:05 amYep via Tindie. I even negotiated free shipping with him.... (to buy the large ReflowR)

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 01:15:11 am
content: Yeah, Tindie customers are getting special treatment over his Indiegogo backers. Just read his latest update (posted by Lafras the day after your earlier post).https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/modern-electronics-reflowr-stem-inspiration-kit-technology#/updates/allThe Reflowr products are OK, and he seems to have good intentions, but his handling of problems has been pretty pathetic and this has unfortunately ruined his reputation.His other Indiegogo project (Many Maker) is in even worse shape. In the comments for Many Maker he basically says he needs to sell 120 more Reflowr units on Tindie to earn enough to send out the outstanding Indiegogo Reflowr units. And if he is doing free shipping deals, then even that isn't going to happen.He doesn't really explain his plan or timeline to fulfil the Many Maker pledges other than...QuoteHe was estimating to ship those in mid 2016, and he still doesn't have a properly working prototype. Glad I was only a minor backer.

author: 8bitgasm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 05:45:53 pm
content: After reading is reply, he sounds sincere and genuinely regretful things have spiraled the way they did. I don't get it though - is there not a UPS or DHL where he is? I didn't even know what EMS was until this order - my bit of research it looks to be some consortium of random shipping companies. The EMS website was also disastrously dysfunctional. I would never trust actual Parcel mail with anyone other than UPS/FedEx/DHL, especially when the majority of his orders were likely not within his native South Africa.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: 8bitgasm on January 29, 2018, 05:45:53 pmI don't know what are prices in South Africa, but here, in Canada, shipping a small parcel with FedEx overseas costs about $200 CAD ($150 USD), and UPS is only slightly cheaper. So, for most normal people it is immaterial whether you can trust other shippers or not.