Siglent SDS1102CML 100MHz Good beginer scope? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 01:55:13 am
content: Hi! I am newbie and i have never used scope but i would like to learn how to use it in terms of servicing vintage solid state audio equipment. I want to learn how to trace the signal and find "problems". Is this good scope for learning but also for good working in this field? Would you reccomend analog scope for begginers? Price of sigilent is very good i think, about 270EUR

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 02:11:08 am
content: We no longer stock them as for 60E more the SDS1202X-E is so much more scope.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 09:45:00 am
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on August 10, 2023, 01:55:13 amWhile it's always the question, what a "good beginner scope" really is, you said you want to learn. That leaves the question: how much do you want to learn? Of course it is easier to start with a simple instrument that doesn't have many features, hence can be learnt quickly, but on te other hand you might soon outgrow such an instrument and want something better.You mention servicing vintage audio equipment as the main use case. In the good old times of analog scopes, I would have said that any scope will do, preferably two channels (but not strictly necessary) and bandwidht isn't important - even just 5 MHz will do.The same is true for digital scopes of course, therefore the SDS1102CML would be more than enough scope for your needs.On the other hand, modern scopes can do so much more than just show a visual representation of a signal. Nowadays these can be signal analyzers, with tons of automatic measurements, advanced math including FFT and even certain applications like Bode Plot in conjunction with a waveform generator.So while a simple DSO can do most everything you could with a good old analog scope, you might want to dive into the word of powerful modern DSOs, where you then will have to reconsider many things you have learnt or got used to with the early digital scopes.My ranking would be (with increasing cost, that is):SDS1102CML: does everything you need - for now. It's an older design that might still have some things that were common on analog scopes, but solved differently on modern DSOs.SDS1202X-E: is the bottom of the barrel entry level model in the modern DSO world. As a big plus it has a sensitive low noise frontend and it does provide a decent 1 Mpts FFT analysis.SDS1104X-E: is 4 channels, which you don't really need; it is similar to the SDS1202X-E, but it has more features and supports Bode Plot in conjunction with an external waveform generator, which can be very handy especially for analysing audio circuits. Think of checking the frequency response of an RIAA equalizer...SDS2102X Plus: That is already some luxury model, with big touch screen. It does everything the SDS1000X-E series does, but has two independent math channels, formula editor, better FFT (2 Mpts), 10 bit acquisition mode, more triggers, more measurements, more everything...Upcoming budget HD scope: Should come soon, would be similar to the SDS2000X Plus series, but lower max. bandwidth (completely irrelevant for audio) and true 12 bit A/D converters instead. Improves the dynamic range, especially helpful for FFT analysis and also squeezes a few additional dB out of the already huge dynamic range of the Bode Plotter.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 02:04:38 pm
content: no, it's very old and has too small features. It's better to search SDS-1102X-E. It has a lot of features which are missing in old CML model, and much better graphics and speed.

author: RiRaRi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 10:01:01 pm
content: Thanks. Unfortunately i am searching for something cheaper for learning. Also, i have to be aware of the fact that i might blow one up. I mean if something with some good function come up that is little more expensive im in.Also i heard that a lot of scopes comes with function generator. Is this the case or?

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 10:08:15 pm
content: Don't forget to add a Bomb Suit to the list.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 10:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: RiRaRi on August 10, 2023, 10:01:01 pmSome do, some don't.Inbuilt AWG's have very limited output drive capability so a standalone is generally much more useful.

author: adam4521
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 06:13:30 pm
content: The other lower cost option that will give you long memory (ability to zoom in on detail, after capture) is Rigol’s DS1102Z-E. In the UK you can get on offer at £229 + VAT (Telonichttps://telonic.co.uk/product/rigol-ds1102z-e-2ch-100mhz-1gsa-s-24mpts-digital-oscilloscope-copy/). Maybe you can get an offer locally. The design is a few years older than the more recent Siglents linked above, main downsides I understand are that it has slower user interface and not-so-great FFT.Lowest cost 2 channel oscilloscope with built-in AWG is Owon’s HDS242S, widely available. The device works, but note that the scope function is much more rudimentary than what people are guiding you towards.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 09:32:47 pm
content: RiRaRi, if you really need to keep costs down there is the SDS1052DL+ too.Not something we normally recommend unless cost is the driving factor.We lent one to Defpom and he thought it rated very well against other cheap DSO's.https://youtu.be/qmBvdRbI_xk?list=PL2z3V9RkHQE0ntjTgr_Nkpv4XRaH_iT2o

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:43:58 pm
content: Gee, that SDS1052DL+ is pretty impressive for such an affordable scope! It's almost like it comes with a free BW upgrade too!Only $289 Yankee Bucks. Amazing. But then again you can get the much improved SDS1102CML+ for only $30 more.Makes me wonder how companies like Fnirsi stay in business.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2023, 11:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on August 10, 2023, 09:45:00 amUntil you do. I'd never willingly go back to not having a 4ch scope again. Especially if your doing anything with computers. Sometimes I'll even connect my SDS1000XE and my SDS2000XP to get 8ch.Not often, but it's been done.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 01:23:03 am
content: If it's all you can get it'll do. But I wouldn't recommend chasing one.I've had one of these for years, though it spends most of its time on a storage shelf because 99% of the time I use analog scopes. It's a pain to trace audio with it, there's so much lag between touching the probe to the circuit and actually seeing a result. Probably totally fine for some applications, but it drives me nuts to trace signals with.Not sure if your function generator question was related to this particular scope, but if so- no, it doesn't have one.I haven't followed used pricing on these, but for what it is I certainly wouldn't pay that kind of money for it in 2023. If you're doing audio you could grab a good quality used analog scope AND signal generator for that price range and you'll be a lot better off.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 02:07:01 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on August 12, 2023, 01:23:03 amOdd.I just tried that on both my Siglent scopes (both different) and with a 1ms/div sweep rate signal trace is visible immediately.Mine are different models, but even with my old cheap UNI-T POS signal is immediate.What frequency were you trying trace and how many cycles did you want to see on the screen?If I try to look at 10Hz and want to see 10 cycles on the screen (a "rare" scenario) it can take a little while (1 sec) to draw the full trace, as it would with any scope, analog or digital, but it triggers right away. Maybe you were looking at low frequencies and had the trigger on "Auto". That might cause a delay, but that is a set-up problem, not a scope problem. In that scenario the trigger would need to be set to "Normal".

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 02:37:53 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on August 12, 2023, 02:07:01 amA few things:- Which Siglent scope? This one, or another model?- Define "immediate". On a CRO, if I even tap a probe on or off a test point I'm going to see it on the display in real time. On this thing there's enough lag that I can often be looking at the DUT, lift the probe off, look up at the scope and see the signal for a split second before the trace disappears. No idea what the actual lag length is, I think it varies, but I'd imagine it's 500mS-1S or something like that? Not the end of the world, but enough to make me second guess probing things on many an occasion, and a huge reason why it was never my daily driver.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 03:23:25 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on August 12, 2023, 02:37:53 amI specifically state they were different than yours. They are an SDS1000XE model and a SDS2000XP model.Quote from: David Aurora on August 12, 2023, 02:37:53 amBy immediate I mean as soon as the signal crosses the trigger level and the scope acquires the data. Again, if you have the trigger set to "Auto" it may delay the display of the signal until the current sweeps completes. If you set the trigger to "Normal" it will begin to acquire the signal as soon as the signal crosses the trigger level then display it. With really slow sweep times (10ms/div or slower) you might still see a short delay, but generally not near as bad as your saying. Unless there is something amiss with that specific model. Is your firmware up to date?

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 07:06:18 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on August 12, 2023, 03:23:25 amYeah, sorry, I saw that you said "both different" but assumed you meant two different Siglent models with one of them being this one as it didn't seem to make any sense for you to be telling me how this model behaves if you don't actually have one.I have the scope in the thread title, I know how to use a scope, and this is the behaviour I get.It's the kind of issue that becomes really obvious when sweeping a signal generator for frequency response checks or adjusting bias and stuff like that- on my Siglent you have to keep in mind that there's a lag, so by the time you see the frequency peak/dip or crossover distortion change or whatever it is you're trying to tweak in real time you've likely already gone past it.Maybe someone who also has one can chime in and confirm if mine is faulty or if this is normal behaviour for the model, but it's been like this from day one and through all firmware updates. I always just assumed that this was normal behaviour for a DSO of that era and price range, it's never been my primary scope so I didn't lose sleep over it. It's fine for observing steady signals, single shot captures and whatnot, but the OP was asking about it for servicing audio gear and as an audio gear service guy who owns one I think mine sucks for that task.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 08:26:55 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on August 12, 2023, 07:06:18 amLike any DSO they have to process the sample points then push them to the display therefore the mem depth set can impact on responsiveness in some situations.However the user is in charge of his/her instrument and need learn how to use it to best effect.Need a long capture then set the mem depth to max.Want faster performance cut it back some.This is the reason midrange DSO's are using PC based processing and custom ASIC's.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 02:04:42 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 12, 2023, 08:26:55 amOr just use a CROThere are definitely great things about DSOs, but it really is hard to beat a CRO for audio work

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 02:12:42 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on August 13, 2023, 02:04:42 amI too like CROs. I have two of them right now and both get used. A Tek 465 and a Heathkit IO4205.I just got the Heathkit a few weeks ago and have just finished getting it working right. It's a very basic scope but so easy and intuitive to use. A perfect learnings tool and at 5MHz, pliantly good for audio and LF radio. It was a nostalgia purchase because I built the single channel version back in the '80s. Since I don't do a lot of Audio work it will probably not see an excessive amount of use, but for $40 I couldn't pass it up and it will be used.