Holy crap!  Can't drill holes correctly! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 03:58:53 am
content: I was never good at this. No matter what I do, drilled hole is not accurately centered at a precisely measured point.I center punch, I use a drill press, I use a small drill and gradually go to larger, but nope! It still shifts. It tends to be better when drill bits are new but it only lasts few dozen holes on aluminum. I am sure I was dead on top of punched mark because I lifted a drill bit and visually checked initial cut was concentric around the tiny punch mark. Then, as I drill, it walks side ways.So.... what's the trick aside from buying a CNC mill?By the way, I am doing this for my electronics project, so this is on topic, sort of, kind of, maybe? Please?

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:03:24 am
content: You didn't tell us what material you are drilling into, what size hole you want, what thickness of material, and what type of drill bit you are using.Drilling into aluminum sheet metal 1-2mm thick let's say, don't use twist drills, use a Unibit.

author: mbless
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:05:21 am
content: I use split point drill bits. I don't have a problem with them walking, even on a 1-2 degree surface that are on aluminum enclosures.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:06:11 am
content: What size holes are you having problems with?A few general tips:Try a short Screw Machine Drill bit. They are shorter and less likely to bend/wander.Make sure your drill press isn't "sloppy" anywhere - it should not be possible to move the drill bit in relation to the work in any direction other than up/down!Always use lubrication (alcohol works fine on aluminum)

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:23:54 am
content: I mainly use aluminum. Occasionally steel, copper, brass, plastic and wood. Basically anything that can be used for my purpose is a fair game.Right now, I am having difficulty with aluminum. Die-cast aluminum is fairly easy but sheet aluminum always gives me problems. I was under impression that for thin (1 mm to 2 mm) aluminum sheet, I don't have to lubricate? But, I'm more than willing to try it. I am using standard drill bits that are available from any hardware store. Not anything special at all.You asked what size.... at 3mm, I already see problems. Larger the hole, worse the problem. My drill press may not be precise but it isn't sloppy. I've never heard of using alcohol as lubricant. Really?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:26:32 am
content: Correct speed and don't push to hard or the drill will flex under load and drive at an angle. Chuck runout can also be an issue depending on the drill press being used some of the cheaper ones are horrid.Also choking down on the drill will help a lot in terms of flex and even look at double ended drills as then tend to be shorter.https://daysindustrial.com.au/1156-cobalt-double-ended-drills

author: paul@yahrprobert.com
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:29:15 am
content: An old machinist once told me that the idea of gradually drilling bigger and bigger holes isn't right. Your pilot hole should be about the size of the "web" of the final bit, where "web" is the thin metal that connects the two flutes of the twist drill together. Also, when you're drilling into your center-punched hole, use some stick wax or cutting fluid, go really slow with the rpms very high, just touch the mark, back off, make sure your mark is good, and use very light pressure until the drill's gone in about a radius or so.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:29:33 am
content: Hi,What do you mean by "choking down"??

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:30:50 am
content: Put the drill as deep into the chuck as you can hence the double ended drills above. The fluted section is generally the bit that flexes.edit just added this shot for comparison much as these ex Chinese drills are a bit fragile they are short fluted and flex very little by comparison. Double ended ones referenced above are similar flute lengths.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:47:07 am
content: Most affordable pillar drill presses with round column and quill are inherently sloppy. Always raise the table so the work is no more than 1/2" below the tip of the bit, to minimize the quill extension required and thus the slop. Also they tend to flex if excessive cutting pressure is used so for good results the drill bit *MUST* be sharp, and you must operate the quill feed smoothly, engaging with the work gently then maintaining consistent pressure until you either back off to clear chips if peck drilling, or have completely drilled through. Exception: Stainless steel and some other metals work harden. You must engage the bit with the work firmly, and once cutting maintain sufficient pressure to get a continuous chip, as if you let it skate even for a moment the surface of the metal can become harder than a HSS drill bit, and it will be impossible to drill without resorting to a carbide bit, which are too fragile for general use in a drill press.Worst case: if you need really accurate holes you may need to use well lubricated drill bushings in a jig to guide the bit.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:52:13 am
content: Quote from: paul@yahrprobert.com on January 12, 2021, 04:29:15 amThat's true for thick material - try doing that on thin sheet material and you'll end up with a hole in the shape of the cross section of the drill.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 06:15:20 am
content: Quote from: paul@yahrprobert.com on January 12, 2021, 04:29:15 am^ This. Also, smaller drills tend to be less rigid, and can't find the punch mark as reliably.To the OP, how are you holding the work? My technique is to freehand the work. If it's very small, I hold it in a drill press vise, but freehand the vise. Rigidly holding the work makes it very hard to ensure the punch mark remains centered. I give it a light touch to check that the drill is centered (the drill effectively chamfers the edge of the punch mark), add a couple of drops of cutting fluid (I use Tapmagic), then drill the hole. I prefer stub-length (aka screw machine length) drills when possible, to maximize rigidity, and get them from a reputable source (the uncoated HSS drills from McMaster are inexpensive and work well in Aluminum; the hardware store stuff is only good for woodworking). Choosing the right spindle speed helps, smaller drills walk when using too low a speed.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 06:23:45 am
content: radar makes a good point.It is complete false economy buying cheap drills.Find a local engineering supply store and buy drills from there. The quality will be high and prices reasonable.stub drills are much better if you aren't drilling deep holes.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:06:04 am
content: I find bullet tip drill bits give me better results, the ones I have boast 'without centre punching' but I find centre punching gives a little bit of an advantage.I'm lucky that I have a machine tool shop walking distance from where I live but my most used set of drill bits came from Aldi, I bought them when I needed a set on a job away from home and they worked so well I'm still using them.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:25:29 am
content: what drill model are you using ? as said above, some brands are well known for a lot of play in the chuck... been there !

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:29:56 am
content: Is your punch hole large and deep enough so the drillbit won't run away.?The penstyle autopunchers are often garbage, better use a metal centerpoint and a hammer.If you get older (as me) and the centerholes are not perfect spot on, use an optical centerpunch, these have a lens with crosshairs and also lens with circle which makes positioning easy, lens is replaced with the centerpunch, ready.Drillbit normal drills are in two tastes HSS and Cobalt drills, the first HSS have a lower angle which makes them more aggressive. Try both and see which work best for you, my guess is that HSS gives a better result on the thin plate. The problem with soft aluminium types is that if the drill becomes to hot the aluminium will stick to the drill which makes it dull. You can remove aluminium from the drill by putting it a few minutes in NaOH solution. Most sink drain cleaner liquids contain this and suffice. Be carefull wear gloves and protection. Afterwards rinse with much water.Also support the plate on the backside to reduce runout.I use to mount thin plates on a piece of MDF. The MDF gives grip to hold the piece in place so it wont move during drilling and back suppport so the drill does not bend the plate.Then alcohol is indeed fine, a cutting fluid like rs50 is even better but for small holes overkill.For large holes as stated above use unibits the larger round drills.Check the drilling angle. Drills are made for 90odrilling.Don't use too much force let the drill do the work.Then very important is the rpm of the drill. Lookup in a table which rpm is recommended for your material and drillsize. I often have better results with lower rpms (<1000) but you will have to experiment yourself to find the best fit. If you have the right rpm then you get a nice curl not chips. Break the curl now and then if you are drilling thicker pieces.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:41:30 am
content: When drilling thin material you need to sandwich it between two pieces of sacrificial material for best results.Also look for aluminium drill bits, they have different grind. If you can't find alu bits, try with bits for stainless steel, they also have less aggressive angle, they are better than normal bits for steel.Drills for stainless steel also usually have some coating, that might help with aluminum not sticking to drill so much.WD40 is really good lubricant for aluminium..

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 09:04:28 am
content: Hopefully you will find some of the ideas below useful:Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 03:58:53 amDrilling in not inherently accurate. Of course that depends upon what you mean by accuracy. In a machine shop high accuracy holes are usually bored. Now givn that you should be able to get the hole to withina few thosands of an inch using manual methods.QuoteThe normal course of action is to use a prick punch followed up with a center punch. The prick punch gets you into position and the center punch applies a divot for the drill to start in.QuoteA drill press will only help with making square holes, everything else depends upon what is done before the drill press is even started. Also in general you want to drill your pilot hole such tat you can go to the full size drill in the next operation. However in sheet metal work you have to be careful as there are considerations that don't come up with thicker materials. In most cases you are better of using single flute step drills (Unibits) for larger holes.QuoteSomething is very wrong here. While likely not the issue in this case, one thing I've observed over the years is that people tend to run drill bis at too high of an RPM. High RPM's should be reserved for the smaller drills that you might use. Not knowing the specifics I can't say what is heppening here but in aluminum you should be able to get hundreds of holes through most grades of aluminum.QuotePossibly too much pressure. the drill not square to the surface or a poor center punch.QuoteA CNC mill would not assure you of on position holes. In either case you need to have the right technique.QuoteDrilling is one of the more common mechanical techniques an electronics specialist should master. So it makes sense to keep it here. Maybe a separate forum topic on mechanical assembly of electronic projects is in order.By the way, a bit of safety advice for people working with sheet metal and drill processors. Please clamp that work down.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 09:10:37 am
content: Either get a CNC ..or.. this quick an dirty manual technique often works well1. Scribe some lines2. Dot punch where the lines meet and you want the hole.3. Use one of those small black mini-drill hand chucks to "start" drilling the hole by hand. Don't go all the way through just start it.4. Re-evaluate your hole position. It will have wandered off the center of your lines.Use the hand drill at a 45degree angle into the half-drilled hole to "walk" the hole in the direction needed to get it back on center. (you're basically widening the start of the hole but in one direction so you can move the center position a little)5. Now finish drilling your hole using either the hand drill or electric drill at 90deg as per normal.6. You should now have a hole that is where you wanted itOh, and use cutting oil if drilling metal. Your drill bits will last much longer and holes will drill faster. win/win

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 09:41:23 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 04:23:54 amLubrication can help. WD40 works surprisingly well on aluminum, however don't use it on other metals. The problem with aluminum is that it can easily weld to the dill bit which can create issues with the drill bit.Drill bits for brass and some plastics, should have an altered cutting edge to prevent cork screwing into the material.QuoteThe majority of drill bits found at hardware stores are complete crap. My best suggestion is to buy from one of the catalog vendors serving the machining industry. A few names here: MSC, Travers, McMaster-Carr or Grainger to name just a few.Now here is the thing; you don't need the high end drill bits though in some cases it might make sense. A quality drill bit will do the job. Even better get the so called screw machine length drill bits for a higher resistance to bending. You can get drill bits coated in variety of materials but be careful here as some of those coatings provide little advantage in the home shop and some don't work with aluminum at all. Bright steel will be fine, though bits designed for aluminum will have some advantage. the problem is it can be difficult to justify a bunch of different drill bits for the home shop so a quality bright steel drill bit with a little lube should be good enough.The exception here to having multiple sets of drill bits is if you are doing a lot of brass or plastic. It really can pay to have a separate set of drill bits altered for this usage. ClickSpring on youtube has a video that explains it:https://www.youtube.com/watch/pAngKHIZgyA.Do enough of these materials and you should have a set of drill bits designated for them.QuoteI wouldn't use alcohol simply due to the fire hazard. However a little bit of the right lubricant can do wonders for the cutting edge on a drill bit. WD40 or kerosene work well on aluminum however you will need different lubes for different materials.large drill bits in thin materials is a problem though. Basically if the diameter of the drill bit is bigger that the sheet metals thickness, you will at the very least get a sloppy hole. The issue is that the bit starts to break through be for the drill bit has a deep enough hole to be supported on the side. One approach is to sandwich the sheet metal between blocks of wood. Another bit of black magic from the machine shop is to get a small square of cloth folded over 2-4 times and to put that small square between the dill bit and the work piece before drilling. That square of folded material only needs to be slightly bigger than the drill bit. A third option that will help some is to buy single flute drill bits.in the end the best solution is to avoid drilling and instead punch the holes.

author: bigredlevy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 11:02:49 am
content: Centre drills are short and so will not wander off the centre punch mark. They provide a suitable pilot for the correct size drill bit to follow.Step drilling is used to reduce the cutting forces required to drill through the material, not for precision of the hole.If you select the correct drill speed, you may not need to step drill the part.Clearing chips by "pecking", and using a suitable cutting fluid (wd40 / kerosene for aluminium) will also help a lot.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 11:37:03 am
content: Quote from: bigredlevy on January 12, 2021, 11:02:49 amethanol is much better for aluminium and it doesn't leave a mess

author: vk3em
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 12:03:27 pm
content: Just an idea - but have you checked the run out of your drill chuck? Some can be really bad (like mine)

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 12:51:30 pm
content: I will try better drill bits (need a new set anyway), use cutting fluid, and possibly a drill guide....Another related question:Is it worthwhile to invest in drill bit sharpening tool? I've only seen one that will do from 2.x mm and up. I often use ones smaller than that. Or, should I better consider bits consumables and replace them often?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 03:57:34 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 12:51:30 pmUnless you have the really expensive $6 a piece and up bits, I would just replace them.Those tools are usually crap, the very good ones to expensive, then you can better let a firm do the resharpening (costs also a couple of $ a piece if you let them do many) but for normal users, you use the bits and when you feel they become dull you replace them.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 05:16:10 pm
content: I don't mind paying $6 for a bit, provided I can reuse it and results in better cut. But I'm thinking those $100 sharpener won't be sufficient. I'm going to have to upgrade my drill press anyway. It's a desktop type and it's too small for my current needs. There just isn't enough depth. I don't even remember where it came from....Can anyone recommend me a brand that are available in US, hopefully less than $500? My setup won't allow me to have a floor standing type so it will have to be a bench top type.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 05:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 12:51:30 pmNot at this stage: you first need to understand what you're trying to achieve while "sharpening" a bit. I put that in quotes because often we're modifying the drill point geometry to suit our needs rather than simply sharpening. A good example of this is dubbed bits for brass or splitting the chisel which is necessary for stainless. Bad drill point geometry is usually what brings down noname hardware store brands. Usually the material is fine but sometimes not.This is the best article I know on the subject:https://www.newmantools.com/machines/drillpoint.htmlOnce that's done, I'll say the $12 sharpener can do 60-70% of what you want while the $100 one does 85-90% (very very slowly for larger bits) but can also do small bits. The way it splits the chisel is OK but timid and removes a lot of material, so I'll hog out most the material on a bench grinder and finish the splits by hand. A dremel with one of those diamond wheels does a great job of fine tuning the split. The main benefit of both those tools is making an evenly ground bit, which is pretty tough to do by hand. The next step up for a sharpening machine is much, much more expensive and very laborious to setup.I drill a lot of stainless, about 1/3rd the time by hand. One of the first things we teach is how to sharpen bits because the very best don't survive long. One day I'll gut the $100 sharpener and hook it up with a big grinding stone, and probably then I'll be a lot happier with it.EDIT: On the subject of drill presses, look sloppy quills and avoid; you'll never fix that. Also avoid anything that is a pain to change speeds on. At $500 you're not going to be into proper quill bearings or anything like that. But *do* find one that's got a taper locked chuck so you can chuck out the junk one that comes with it and get yourself something decent. Something decent doesn't need to be expensive: these ones are excellenthttps://www.busybeetools.com/products/drill-chuck-5-8in-jt3.htmlI'm sure you can find them in the US somewhere.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 06:02:18 pm
content: I understand. I'm not trying to do anything fancy. Changing geometry of bits are way beyond my goal.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 06:12:57 pm
content: Sure, I understand completely. All those drill sharpening tools require you to select your drill point geometry, as does doing them by hand. I think that's why people get frustrated by them. They want a machine that you put drill bits in and get sharp ones out. That machine doesn't exist (and oh how I wish it did!). The only other option is buying new bits as the old ones get damaged.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 06:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 12:51:30 pmIf you buy just the size you need you can get drill bits in packages. The quantity varies with size but for smalls yo can buy 6 or 12 at a time for a bit of a discount. More importantly if you are using certain sizes often you will have spares for when you break one. It is in fact pretty easy to break the smaller drill bits especially if they are hard. You will want to purchase HSS rated steel drill bits, where HSS is "High Speed Steel". M2 HSS is the most common and is a Molybdenum alloyed HSS steel. M35 is a Cobalt alloyed HSS. Even within these classifications the quality of manufacture does matter. I wouldn't bother with any of the high tech alloys or composite drills as they are more expensive than can be justified in most home shops.Drill guides can be of huge advantage when drilling by hand. If you are using a machine such as a drill press it would be better to learn how to layout and drill the holes you want on position.QuoteWell that could result in a massive discussion all on its own. I've had decidedly mixed results tying to use the cheap drill bit sharpeners on the market and almost zero luck on the smaller drill bits. It is far better to buy a bench grinder and learn to sharpen larger drill bits by hand at the bench grinder. Small drill bits are very difficult too do, especially with bad eyesight so some see them as disposable. If you have a large collection of drill bits it can pay to have them sharpened professionally but even here smalls may not be economical.In general you can significantly extend drill bit life by sharpening. If you can get a grasp on doing it at a bench grinder you can dress up an edge in less than a minute on a bench grinder. Oh by the way almost every new bench grinder I know of ships with really shoddy wheels for grinding tools.QuoteAt some point you will either develop the ability to sharpen at a bench grinder or replace worn out drill bits. However you should be able t do far more holes that the few you have mentioned earlier (drilling aluminum). The problem with sharpening small drill bits at a grinder is actually seeing what you are doing, in my case anyways. I get very passable results for larger drill bits so I can't say where the cut off would be for you, but yeah replacement of worn small drill bits is the common approach.As for hand sharpening drill bits there are hundreds of videos and instructional sights covering that on the web. What might end up being confusing is that there are multiple methods and geometries people will put on the cutting edges for various uses. For example some prefer the four facet method:http://modelenginenews.org/meng/smalldrilljig.html.Then you have things like the angle of the cutting edge to split the point or not. The sad reality is this, often store purchased drill bits are not sharpened properly and will not work well out of the box. I've seen this poor sharpening even fro drill bits purchased though professional channels, so it isn't just an issue with "cheap manufactures".That one link above is to a model engineering site. the fact of the matter is that model engineers have the same problem as you, that is dull drill bits, often on the very small size that need to be sharpened. Being model engineers, they have the ability to build fixtures and tools to make that job easier. On really small drill bits you don't even need a bench grinder as you can get an edge against a honing stone. In any event it is worth poking around sites related to "model engineering" to get an idea as to how people have addressed sharpening small drill bits in various ways. In the end they have the same problem and need to solve it in the cheapest way that gives good results. Few people are willing to spend $20,000 on a nice drill bit grinder, so there are some creative ways to get the job done.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 06:40:36 pm
content: I have this very bad habit of "interest creep" that is similar to feature creep. It's a creep of a project goal except it is I that will creep rather than the project itself. It doesn't help that I have an OCD. If I don't stop myself, I will soon have a full featured machine shop.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 06:44:16 pm
content: Drill bushings are the answer but they need some kind of jig to hold them.You might try just making a 'bushing' from a thicker piece of stock. Drill the appropriate size hole through the stock, center it above the desired location, clamp everything in place and drill through the final piece.Yes, it's a lot of effort. I'm basically lazy so when I needed a grid of 60 precisely placed holes for banana jacks plus many other holes for things like potentiometers, switches, LEDs and a panel meter, I built up a CNC mill. It was certainly the least productive and most expensive way to do the job but it came out great!

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:08:56 pm
content: Really? No one?https://www.irwin.com/tools/drill-bits/high-speed-steel-fractional-self-starting

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:31:45 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 12, 2021, 07:08:56 pmUnibits (brand name for step bits) were mentioned a few times in the thread, but thanks for the link and the picture, since it is good for those who are not familiar with these.I used to have the same problem with drilling, even with a nice, old delta drill press with low runout and a lot of mass. There's a lot of good advice in this thread. What worked for me:Use decent drill press.Alwaysfirmlyclamp all work.Use favorite lube.Minimize quill extension.Then:Thin materials: Step bits or unibits.Thicker materials: One pilot bit just bigger than the chisel on your final bit, then go to your final bit.If you practice these, you will make less scrap, and less frustration.John

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:33:52 pm
content: I have the same problem, and I bought a drill press. Now my holes are (almost) perfect.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:52:36 pm
content: Standard drills are "jobber" length, that is, long, about 10X the diameter.Screw machine drills are shorter"Spotter" drills are really short, just long enough to make a hole of the full diameter.And when it comes to plastic, I love my "plastic" drills (of steel) which are pointier and have a zero rake so they won't corkscrew into your precious Radio Shack box!

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 05:16:10 pmBuying a $6 drill bit might not solve any issues at all for you. We really need to understand what is going wrong with your drilling. It could very much be simply that the drill bits you are buying simply are not sharpened properly.As for those drill bit sharpeners, I don't want to completely dismiss them as I've successfully put a good edge on lager drill bits with them. However you can do the same thing by hand at a bench grinder. With really small drill bits i see the devices as worthless. Even a bench grinder with a standard wheel is pretty useless. It is a different challenge from y perspective to sharpen those small drill bits used in electronics.As for drill presses this is where it gets ugly. Large drill presses for small drill bits are a terrible combination. The problem is the lack of feel or feedback with respect to the drilling operation and spindle speeds suitable for small drill bits. If you are doing a lot of drilling with a very small bits you will really want a drill press designed for such use. For many shops this may mean two drill presses, again though there are alternatives. One way to use a large drill press with small bits is to make or buy a sensitive drilling attachment. A sensitive drilling attachment allows you to better feel how the drill bit is feeding and adjust the feed pressure accordingly.QuoteWell one common small drill press is the Servo Products solution:http://www.servoproductsco.com/html/drill_presses.html.These are NOT $500 drill presses new, however you can find them used.As for larger drill presses many of the Chinese imports are not that good. In fact I purchased a floor model from one vendor and a bench type from another and honestly a complete waste of money. If you are trying to save money by buying a cheapish drill press I'm thinking you will regret that purchase (I have). At this point I'd suggest buying a Jet or Powermatic in the hopes that their quality control is a bit better than some of the stuff that is resold in the USA. Here is a Jet that is slightly over your limit:https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/62112008but it is a name brand product. with the hoped for quality control. Many of the bench top drill presses, found in home centers, are just flimsy and are not suitable for metal work in my opinion. The other issue is that wood working oriented drill presses are oriented around higher speed spindles and tables with out lube containment. If you are working with metal get a drill press suitable for that sort of work.Fair warning if you buy a drill press it will end up at some point being too small for what you want to do.Another recommendation, based on my experience trying to put together a small shop, consider a small mill instead of wasting money on a less flexible drill press. Yes that will inflate your budget, however if you are tight on space (who isn't) you will get a far more versatile machine with only a slightly increased foot print. An example here would be something like:https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4190&category=1387807683.You will lose a bit drilling capacity wise but then replace that with the versatility to dill accurately placed holes. It is a mixed bag of benefits and restrictions but the simple ability to position, in an XY way, is a huge advantage in my mind. Not mention the ability to mill (cut outs for your panels) and the ability to make use of collets and specialty cutters. You are looking at easily 2-3X your drill press budget for even a small machine so that is a consideration. Frankly those small machines are minimal and spending even more money gives you advantages.I bring up the mill because honestly buying a drill press didn't really fit my needs. If you are working in metal, many common construction issues for electronic projects would benefit more from a mill than a drill press. Want to drill an array of holes for panel push buttons - a mill makes this easy. The same thing goes for an array of holes for your through the hole components. Want a cut out for a display or meter, again a mill makes this easy. Also due to the mills using an R8 tapers you can use things like drum sander without the fear of the taper breaking loose. So if you already have a drill pres I'd save my money for a more robust mill. Extend that drill presses life by getting a sensitive drilling attachment.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 08:16:25 pm
content: I gave up on those shitty benchtop drill presses and do everything from 1mm to 3inch by cordless/corded hand drills of different sizes, using a reamer tool to finish medium size holes up to 10mm. The only benchtop drill press i use is a small one for occasional PCB driling.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 08:16:38 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 06:40:36 pmAs I mentioned in another post that just appeared, thinking machine shop is not a bad idea. Considering my own experience I would have been better off buying a small mill than spending the $600 plus dollars I did on a floor model drill press. Back then It would have meant waiting a few months to increase the budget allotment, now I'm focused on other things. So if it might make more sense to adjust the budget, even if that means a few months wait, to get the advantages of a mill. Make the right mill purchase and you will have that machine for years maybe even for the rest of your life. The biggest problem with a mill purchase is that even at 2-3X your current budget you are only getting what would be called a minimal mill. Still for electronics related projects, such a machine is often the ideal solution. Bump the budget to $2000 and you start to get into really useful machine tools.So instead of stopping, embrace your future machine shop as it can make doing things that are currently impossible in your shop a breeze. We are lucky in that such tools are currently "affordable" so might as well take advantage of that reality.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 08:22:05 pm
content: But those mini milling machines are not much better made i heard, they use plastic gears, don't they ?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 08:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on January 12, 2021, 08:22:05 pmnot necessarily anything wrong with plastic gears, cheap quiet and a mechanical fuse in case you crash so you don't break anything worse

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 09:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on January 12, 2021, 08:22:05 pmSome might, this one doesn't:https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-7-x-27-1-hp-mill-drill-with-stand/g0704It didn't cost anywhere near as much when I bought it several years ago. The biggest problem is that the spindle speed is far too slow for milling Acrylic. Others have reworked the spindle to overcome that.There are leadscrew kits and stepper kits available and I highly recommend the Ethernet Smooth Stepper as the stepper controller.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 09:42:59 pm
content: At the risk of sounding foolish - I'm no machinist but have done a fair number of aluminium panels (1mm to 3mm thickness).I used to get oval holes, the bit would wander instantly, and because of the thickness of the sheet, and the fact alu is pretty soft, it was all too easy to "mill" the hole. The things that helped a great deal:- Clamp/bolt/fix the sheet to a larger piece, I used scrap wood. This would then get clamped in a vice. I would drill from the back of the panel so the front had a clean hole and no markings.(Sandwiching the sheet between two pieces produced nicer finished holes, but of course made alignment harder)- Split point 135 bits seemed to wander a LOT less. And produced much cleaner holes, with single tendrils. I can't remember where I got mine, but they were all very short (50mm) so only about 20mm stuck out from the chuck.- I never used a punch to start, instead, a pinvice with a 1mm HSSS bit, two turns and it was almost through the sheet.- For holes > 6mm, I found a step drill, made very clean holes, although it wasn't so good at starting. The above 4mm split point was used. It also naturally deburrs a hole - although you sohuldn't have burrs if you're using the right speed and your bits are sharp enough. It's worth getting a half decent one as I used it for every hole >6mm.- No high speed - especially for larger holes. I've have heard that it is both "good" and "bad" to "peck" with the drill bit, but if the piece can't move, I don't see how it can hurt.- Don't use pressure. I know that is obvious, but I have seen people who are fairly experienced force it, which is silly for sheet aluminium. It should be easy.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 10:58:03 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 04:23:54 amOnly for aluminum. It works really well for both drilling and milling and is of course super clean. I get a mirror like finish.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 11:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on January 12, 2021, 06:15:20 amI don't use punch marks at all for the smallest drills for this reason - you are almost asking the drill to flex away from the center (you will never get the punch mark and drill tip perfectly aligned enough to avoid that). Go slow in the beginning and the smallest drills "go in on their own" without wandering.Quote from: radar_macgyver on January 12, 2021, 06:15:20 am+1 for screw machine drills, and +1 for TapMagic for drilling (and tapping, obviously)For aluminum, alcohol is a nice non-messy lubricant. Most electronics guys already have isopropyl alcohol and it works great (for aluminum!).

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 11:14:02 pm
content: Jeez, everyone's eager to re-iterate what they know about drilling holes while the OP's application remains a mystery. Before the problem's even defined let's recommend OP start dicking around with sharpening and re-shaping drill bits to save $4. Great advice.And nowhere has it even been defined what "precisely" means in the OP.Let's start with this: How accurate do you need these holes to be, both position and roundness? What do they do?If precise means "looks OK to me" that's one thing, and your drill press may be just fine for that. I'm guessing that's the case as you're manually marking the hole locations. A CNC mill won't stop a bit from wandering and neither will a fancier drill press. A small drill bit is way bendier than even the cheapest drill press. Don't forget they make sheet metal specific drill bits if that's what you're drilling.A video/picture is worth 1,000 words too if you have one.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 11:34:13 pm
content: Drills will wander. The only way to get an accurately-positioned hole is to use a milling machine, and a CNC spotting drill to start the hole, and then a very SHORT drill bit to bring the hole to desired size.You can do better than center punch and drill by using a center drill and drilling deep enough to leave a 60 degree chamfer on the hole, and then follow up with a standard drill bit. But, if you notice, drilling holes in thin materials invariably leaves a 3-lobed hole in the metal. That's the problem, jobber's length drill bits wander in the workpiece, and whenever they break through the back surface, that's where the center of the hole ends up. That wander can be QUITE surprisingly large.For larger holes, I mill them with a CNC mill, using a program that orbits the cutter to form the OD. That way, if I have a dozen different-sized holes, they can all be done with one tool.You can get "screw machine" length drill bits from the usual machine tool suppliers like KBC, MSC, Travers Tool and such, they are about 1/3rd the length of jobber's length drill bits, and so wander far less. If you center drill with a center drill where the tip is just smaller than the desired hole size, then drill through with a screw machine length drill on a drill press, you should get a fairly accurate hole.If you want to experiment with this, scribe crosshairs on a piece of scrap, then center punch EXACTLY in the crosshairs, then drill with your favorite drill bit.Now, see where the hole ENDED UP! You'll not be happy, the hole will NOT be in the center of the crosshairs.Jon

author: Teledog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 02:09:08 am
content: I agree with BIGREDLEVY, get yourself a small sized "center drill bit set". (Amazon, eBay, WHY)They don't wobble, start your holes, then finish with your bits - you'll be happy!Also, what speed are you using?..don't need a high RPM for aluminum..take your time!Again, clamp your work, if it wobbles, it's your drill press.I use an old el-cheapo no-name drill press, works fine 95% of the time ..for ~0.003" accuracy, the milling machine.G'Luck!

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 03:42:47 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 06:40:36 pmFYI that's what happened to me and it started with a drill press. Ended up with a whole new career out of it.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 04:02:28 am
content: One crucial thing no one has mentioned - feeds and speeds. You haven't volunteered what speeds you're drilling at, or what feed rate you're using, and nobody seems to have asked. Feed rates are really about when you're setting a machine up to do your feeding for you. Perhaps they are a useful guide for manual drilling, to let you know what the ballpark is, but 99.9% of the time you're going to figure out a manual feed rate from experience and/or watching the chips you make.Let's take your 'typical' scenario, 3mm hole in Aluminium. Machinery's Handbook gives a cutting speed of 350-400 linear feet per minute for drilling aluminium, and a feed rate of 0.031 inches per revolution when using HSS tooling. For the metrically inclined that's 106 - 122 metres per minute and 0.78 mm/rev. So to get a round 120 metres/min cutting speed at its edge, a 3mm bit will have to be spinning at 12,700 rpm. That's the optimum or, strictly, a good trade off between surface finish, tool life and productivity.Your drill press isn't going to get anywhere close to that, but my bet is you haven't even consciously set a speed or if you have you've probably gone "best not take it too fast". Well, clearly from the standard feeds and speeds you probably need to crank up your drill press to its maximum. For some reason people always think that the problem is that they are drilling too fast, when for small holes more often than not problems are because they are drilling too slow.If you're getting long curls of metal coming out of the back your drill you're doing well, just lift the drill occasionally to break them off (peck drilling). If you're getting little needles of metal coming out that are about as long as the cutting edge of your drill is wide you're getting chattering at the cutting edge. Chattering is an indication that you've got your cutting speed wrong (either too fast OR too slow), or are using a blunt drill or wrong cutting edge geometry and can be a cause of a drill wandering off.Centre punches. Watch any of the many videos on YouTube of professional machinists at work. When drilling in a drill press or milling machine you'll never see a centre punch used. A spotting drill or a centre drill, certainly, but never a centre punch. (Drilling freehand off the press/mill, different story.)So, my advice. Mark your work up well, clamp it well, and get the markup smack under the drill point - a small XY table is a godsend here. Keep the extension of your drill press quill to a minimum. Basically, get everything rigid.Use lubrication for drilling metal. You can go all out and get pukka cutting fluid, but a drop of good old WD40 works fine for aluminium. ISO 32 hydraulic oil (aka sewing machine oil) isn't a bad cutting fluid for brass and mild steel.Get a proper 90˚ spotting drill, start all your holes with that, it just takes a 'dab' to get a little V drilled that will allow the non-cutting part of your drill (the web) to get below the surface and let the actual cutting edges of the drill engage with the material to be cut. For small holes like 3mm in aluminium crank your drill press up to maximum speed. For bigger holes and other materials - learn how to find feeds and speeds for the materials you're cutting and use the right cutting speed.Use the shortest drill that will get the job done. Use short 'stub' drills aka 'screw machine length' if you can - typical length 15 times the drill diameter (contrast with 'jobber' drills, the ones everyone is familiar with, which are around 20-25 diameters long) - rigidity, again.You don't need any exotic drills, standard HSS DIN 338 drills will do a fine job on anything up to steel, just don't go trying to cut hardened steel with them. Don't be tempted to use carbide bits, they need even higher speeds for optimum performance and they are brittle as all hell compared to standard tool steels. For wood up to moderate sizes, invest in a set of brad point 'lip and spur' bits, nothing beats them for getting a clean finish with minimum tear-out.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 04:45:42 am
content: Quote from: bigredlevy on January 12, 2021, 11:02:49 amI totally agree using Center Drills will help a lot for this problem.

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:27:44 am
content: Are your center punch marks accurate? Is the punched divot where you want to drill? In other words, is the problem not center-punching accurately? Or is the problem that the drill starts walking off center immediately?

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 06:27:35 am
content: Hi all,Heres my tuppenceworth based on my years....Invest in a floor standing drill press. The extra weight gives the job stability and better accuracy. Use clamps etc to hold your metal in place till your confidence builds up.Get an electric drill sharpener, but remember they are only really useful for drill bits say 4mm and above.Learn how to sharpen your own drill bits using a grinding wheel for anything under 4mm.Buy LOTS of drill bits and change them when you notice the sharpness is going......then aside a few hours for drill bit sharpening sessions.Use proper cutting oil/paste. I use a hole tapping oil.Get some of those stepped drill bits, they are great for building up the size of your hole....and you can deburr with them quickly an easily.Make sure your press, grinder area is well lit.Ian.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 06:49:40 am
content: I think OP needs to shed some more light on the application and his/her actual requirements before any more useful advice can be given.Suggesting he invest a ton of money and time into new equipment/processes, is way overblown if he just needs to pop a few holes in something. Talking his ear off about feedrates like that's something anyone with a manual drill press has a hope of controlling is also...interesting."Hey guys I need to drill like 3 holes in a sheet, help.""OK first thing's first, buy a copy of the Machinist's Handbook and a $4000 Dake drill press."Let's pump the brakes a bit. He's drilling a few holes for a hobby project, not starting up a job shop. Presumably.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 07:47:54 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 13, 2021, 06:49:40 amAlso he's drilling sheet metal, 1-2 mm thick. None of the stuff mentioned will help. Only thing that will help is to sandwich sheet metal in two sacrificial layers of some material (wood will do) that will keep sheet metal stable during drilling. It will also help center holes...Or use metal guide on wood backing..

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 07:58:26 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on January 12, 2021, 04:26:32 amEspecially when the chuck is in the lowest position. Some you can wiggle laterally (and literally) 3mm or more. And that's a brand new one still in the shop.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 08:19:29 am
content: That's not runout, that's slop in the quill or spindle bearings. If you want to check runout, you need a precision ground steel rod*you can chuck in place of the bit and a dial indicator with a magnetic base that permits it to be used to measure horizontal movement, to check the runout of the rod right next to the chuck jaws, while turning the drill's motor pulley by hand (obviously with power disconnected). Repeat a known distance down the rod, and both again with the indicator base moved 90 degrees from the first measurement, and you'll have a fairly good idea how accurate the chuck is. Also, to get an idea of the slop, grab the chuck and see how much movement you can get with moderate force at each measurement position, without turning it.If you are dealing with a precision drill press, it may well be worth repeating the runout measurements with different diameter rods covering the extremes of the range of shank sizes the chuck will accept, and also removing the chuck and directly indicating runout on the spindle taper.* An average consumer drill press doesn't really need that good a rod to detect how lousy it is - you can usually salvage one that's good enough from the head carriage mechanism of a failed full size CD or DVD drive, just make sure its got bevel ground ends, not sheered ends.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 03:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on January 13, 2021, 08:19:29 amAre those rods anything special? - thinking about it, maybe they do have to be pretty good...

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 04:14:44 pm
content: They are precision parts but are unlikely to be meteorology grade as the focus and tracking servos can compensate for quite significant deviations from a linear radial path for the carriage. I expressly excluded ones with sheered ends (i.e. from low cost mechanisms) that may be distorted near their ends or even slightly bent! Roll one on a surface plate with a bright light level with the surface behind it and you'll get a reasonable idea whether or not its straight, and whether it is barrel shaped or thinner in the middle. Mike it near each end to check for taper.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 08:15:46 pm
content: You can also use the shaft of a long shank carbide endmill.They are usually ground to below a couple of micron roundness and straightness in my experience.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 08:21:38 pm
content: I'm no fan of Unibits.For bigger holes (and a great fit) use a hand tapered reamer.Ok, on thicker things the taper is noticeable.Just give it a few half-hearted licks with a round file.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 12:47:03 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 06:40:36 pmOH, that's how it happens! First, you want to punch some holes in a chassis, so you get a set of chassis punches. Then you get more tools, and more,and pretty soon you have a Bridgerport milling machine converted to CNC and a 3500 Lb lathe, sheet metal shear and finger brake, and a pick and placemachine. It's a slippery slope, just like the test equipment anonymous, only the equipment is a LOT heavier!Jon

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 12:49:55 am
content: Buy some "center drills" for lathes. Also, use the chuck key to tighten the chuck at all three 120 degree key holes as equally as possible.Steve

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 03:09:50 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on January 14, 2021, 12:49:55 amHmm, I will have to try this. Thanks!John

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 04:00:29 pm
content: Curious to the reason for tightening all three positions on the chuck, is it for slop in the 'gears'?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 07:22:33 pm
content: I bought M42 drills (norseman and drill hog) for numbers and letters and the difference is great compared to hardware store drills on anything tougher then butter. much less noise while drilling.if you don't tighten all 3, it tends to get loose while drilling heavy, in my experience.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 02:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 04:29:33 amLOL, I do not know the origin of the term, but in baseball, when you "choke up" on a bat, you move your hands closer to the distal end of the bat (the part that hits the ball). So in the case of a drill bit, move the bit so that less of it extends beyond the collet. Reduces the runout due to flexing of the bit.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 05:40:34 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on January 14, 2021, 12:49:55 amI hope this is sarcasm. You know the bit that the key engages is one single moving piece, right?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 07:20:15 pm
content: yea but its not perfect, on my drill press if you tighten one hard the other ones will tighten a little still. If you don't do it on a nice ground shaft on a high quality drillbit it tends to get loose when doing something difficult.I don't know if it centers anything better but its a necessity on most drill chucks. I don't know if you need it on a 500$ brand name super chuck, but on a cheap drill press its defacto way to do it.I don't know if it centers anything but it seems necessary to do to actually make a impressive hole.Now on my italian self tightening chuck, it obviously works well with the mechanism it has, but the chuck included on a Lowes 400$ drill press... you think that is actually round?BTW best mod you can do on the shitty drill presses is get a real chuck, so get yourself some jacobs chuck extractor sets and replace it if you can.It's probobly lop sided and deformed or some shit and it just works better if you tighten it on a few points. I never bothered to equally tighten it unless I am doing something the drill press should really not be doing. Usually those implements stop being round and get a hex shank though.And if you don't get a new chuck, spend the money on a bench grinder because you will need to de gall the nasty destroyed drill shanks after you are done with the cheap chuck. The hardware store machines only work when you get everything on display at once so you can cross fix them.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:01:44 pm
content: Quote from: IanJ on January 13, 2021, 06:27:35 amI liked everything in your post but this just needs to be highlighted. If you struggle to see you will undermine yourself when it come to other parts of the job.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:06:15 pm
content: Quote from: mc172 on January 15, 2021, 05:40:34 pmNope it can be shown to make a difference in some chucks. It can impact runout and the chucks grip.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:34:36 pm
content: Three places tightening usually results in enough grip that the bit doesn't slip. Want to be convicted for Contempt of Machinist? Open your case of drill bits, having evidence of scars on the drill shank. 3X tightening usually prevents this on inferior chucks. I work at a university, and trust me, 3X keying is a professional requirement in our shops. It is taught to students in their machine experience class. Not all chucks come from Albrecht, some are loose crap that need the tensioning.Also, woe betide you if we find a drill press that does not have the key chained to it. This results in lots of gossip about the owner/operator's skill set, behind their back. It never ceases to amaze me how many grad students will remove the chain when left alone with a drill press. I realize some people might think the chain is a hazard, so we use light brass links that will sever. I've found using a loose chuck to be a greater hazard then the chain many times.A PHd in Physics who worked his way through undergrad as a machinist, and a former shop foreman of a major local shop were my mentors. I do not want to even think about not symmetrically tightening the lathe chuck in their presence. Especially on the precision Monarch, which would result in loosing privileges on the Monarch. Long ago my then Dean decided I needed to know enough about shop work to reduce the burden I placed on the main shop. While I would not be qualified to go work in commercial service around here, I've worked my way enough up the ladder to be grandfathered in at work. Learning was "Evenings and Weekends" for the most part. That would be followed with a professional critique of my parts on Monday.Academic Machining can have a different culture then what is on a manufacturing floor. Usually we are freehand machining parts from a rough drawing, we have little budget for new tooling, we service our own machines, and we often are using rather exotic materials. We do our own setups. We usually are making just one of everything that passes through. The main shop has CNC staffed with Journeyman or Master, the splinter shops use manual machines staffed by persons with a more diverse technical skill set. I'm the senior instrument tech, and while I fab an immense amount of my own mechanicals, part of my job is to know when to send parts over to the main shop. Main shop Masters also serve as instructors to the undergraduate students as needed.I can attest that I need to join Machining Equipment Anonymous, having a surplus mill, and a highly reworked tabletop lathe.Steve

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on January 15, 2021, 11:06:15 pmIt certainly applies to older chucks with dust/rust/detritus between the collar and jaws. Personally it is good practice be it a Drill or even a Lathe Chuck.Quote from: Wimberleytech on January 15, 2021, 02:36:43 pmUsed in Golf (Choking down on the Club) and in Baseball makes sense it would be choking up. Other meanings may not be appropriate for discussion

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 13, 2021, 06:49:40 amMostly it sounded like drilling sheetmetals for electronic projects. More detail might help but overall he has a common problem that those new to metal working have.QuoteThere is a massive market for used equipment so you don't need to spend big bucks. In any event the OP implied that he is looking at buying new machinery. My point is that another cheap drill press will not offer much in the way of improvement. Improvement would require better technique and tools.QuoteActually this is extremely important. There are all sorts of things you can do wrong at a drill press. One of those is feeding the drill at an improper rate. Another is letting the drill bit rub, especially on stainless steel which can work harden pretty quickly.In this context feeding to aggressively will bend a drill bit and cause it to wanderQuoteA handbook can also be picked up used and would be good for a lifetime.QuoteYes and he is frustrated by not getting those holes where he wants them. It can be extremely surprising how some of the little things mentioned can have a big impact. Good drill bits do matter and dressing the edge differently for drilling in brass can have a huge impact. A sensitive feed attachment can be had for less than $200 and can make a huge difference when it comes to extremely small diameter screws.As for hobby shops, lets be honest here there are electronic labs in people homes as good as some R& D shops. The same goes for home machine shops. I'm not going to say these people are wrong to spend their money this way. However just like an expensive DVM has a place in a home shop so does a milling machine, fancy drill press or whatever.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:57:00 pm
content: A small milling machine (that also acts as a precision drill press) is not even that expensive these days.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 12:30:24 am
content: Eyes and Lighting do matter. The wrong eyeglass prescription can really mess you up in the shop, unless you have a DRO on everything. I like 500-750 Lux for fine work and soldering small parts. Seems like overkill, but it does help.I check my center punching with a loupe these days. I guess I'm old.Steve

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 09:11:01 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 15, 2021, 11:57:00 pmUt a good one still costs money.The cheap ones have bad runout or some aren't even properly squared.But probably good enough for most hobbieists.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 09:24:04 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on January 12, 2021, 06:40:36 pmMan, this is like Freud visited EEVblog and identified, named, and set forth an entire new branch (or superset?!*) of TEA for further clinical application and research.(But this is a very useful thread on hole drilling so thanks for starting it. Now I need a drill press.)*Edit

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 10:27:23 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on January 15, 2021, 11:57:00 pmWow, first you discover you need a drill press: looks like ~$90-$170 could get you started drilling holes with some precision (if you get the first little center divot right where it should be).https://www.amazon.com/WEN-4208-5-Speed-Drill-Press/dp/B00HQONFVEhttps://www.lowes.com/pd/WEN-10-in-Variable-Speed-Drill-Press/1002920870Then you read this full thread and your post and you discover you could have one of these for ~$400?https://youtu.be/YuqTzOpDCEANow instead of just drilling round holes in precise locations you can cut lines and shapes in precise locations!? Kind of like finding Ohm and he leads to Kirchoff and you can only imagine Maxwell is either just around the corner, or at least somewhere over the horizon.This is clearly a case study in tkamiya interest creep (TIC?).- I’m already starting to feel a little sad about the Dremel tool being somewhat demoted...

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 11:31:50 am
content: drill press, milling machine, CNC .... brilliantAn opening to the CNC rabbit hole.fwiw (in an effort to stay on topic) a month ago I got the bug to learn about / build a simple power supply. That turned into maybe the PCB, transformer, pot knobs, meters, banana jacks, etc should have an enclosure, which meant cutting holes as starting points for larger cut outs - which turned into maybe it’s time for a drill press, which was an idea that just happened a few days before tkamiya’s hole drilling thread. So here we are exploring the rabbit hole from hand drills and dremels to drill presses to milling machines to CNC. Who knew a power supply enclosure would lead to full blown TIC?

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 12:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: exe on January 12, 2021, 07:33:52 pmWhat size / model press made that nice hole in that narrow rod? Thx

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 12:16:54 pm
content: Quote from: Renate on January 12, 2021, 07:52:36 pmWhat type of drill do you prefer for plastic boxes?

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 12:42:18 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on January 12, 2021, 07:57:13 pmLot’s of very helpful advice in this thread but this post is super compelling.Why drill holes when you could be drilling and also doing much more? - and will probably want to.So that leads to a milling machine, and it could lead to CNC. CNC is cool but requires CAD input and it looks like a pretty big step up in investment of time and $.So that says a milling machine might be the middle (just right) bear, but what type and size milling machine is right for electronics related work that could potentially span materials from plastic to metal (and maybe wood)?What are the likely contenders for an entry milling machine? Would the Harbor Freight machine suffice or is that too rough and tough? In wood/metal drill presses it looks like you are always on the verge of wanting larger but at some point that looks opposite of what’s needed for micro stuff. Same with milling machines?What’s the Aneng 8008, Rigol 1054Z, Korad 3005, etc of milling machines (or alternatively, drill presses)? And what’s one step up from there? Thx!

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 12:56:58 pm
content: Newspaper headline tacked on Wall in our local machining supply shop:"DRILLING IS THRILLING"Steve

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 04:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 16, 2021, 12:42:18 pmI have an HF machine, and was thinking about converting to CNC. But I found that the only thing you really need is a DRO (digital readout) because otherwise you have to keep track of where you are on the workpiece by counting the number of revolutions of the X and Y axis handles... somehow, I always mess that up!The overhead of doing CAD for every project is unnecessary for what I use it for.Of course, it could be a fun hobby to convert to CNC, but that's what it would be - a hobby, not a necessity.Quote from: Electro Fan on January 16, 2021, 12:42:18 pmThe HF machines are pretty much the same as some of the models sold on littlemachineshop.com - I believe the manufacturer is called Sieghttps://littlemachineshop.com/entry/siegmachines.phpAnd yes, they are more than good enough for electronics type construction projects. I can make things accurate to within one or two thousandths of an inch, if I take care and treat it as a challenge.99% of the time you don't need that level of precision and it is a no brainer to get within 5 thousandths.Good enough for Australia, for sure!

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 05:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 16, 2021, 10:27:23 amYeah, that was me a couple of years ago. Two hobby-grade CNC mills later, and I'm seriously considering a Fadal VMC-15 or used Haas mini-mill. I'll be broke, but at least I'll be making chips!Entry-level manual mill would be something like the HF or Grizzly G0704. Lots of folks do CNC conversions on the G0704. Precision Matthews PM-25 is similar sized, but somewhat higher build quality. You can do a lot with those, like making panels and small enclosures. Next step up might be a Tormach, and then its on to what the pros call a "mini mill", where you need 3-phase power and concrete pads that can hold the weight of 5000 lbs of cast iron.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 06:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 16, 2021, 12:16:54 pmhttps://www.craftics.net/ShowItems.aspx?Category=132&ParentCategory=87https://www.tapplastics.com/product/supplies_tools/plastic_tools_supplies/tap_plasdrill_bits/161/482I bought the first ones locally.On a slight tangent to this subject: I've been looking for a smallish drill press.I want something bigger/better than a Dremel drill press.The special feature that I would like?I want something that the column extends through the drive unit.This way I could build the drill in as to be more stable than just relying on weight to stay put.With a belt drive that would require bigger pulleys and make belt replacement a chore.Or maybe a direct drive? (And not a portable drill clamp thingy.)Does such a thing exist?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 10:41:20 pm
content: Quote from: Renate on January 16, 2021, 06:05:53 pmHave a look at the Bosch PBD. I have had one for about a year and it works great. Two speed mechanical gearbox and a really solid electronic speed control. Plenty of power to drive large holesaws and unless you spend a heap more the runout is good on it too.edit added the modded base I have on mine so I can use it on large panels.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 12:09:07 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 16, 2021, 12:42:18 pmIt wasn't meant to be super compelling, rather just highlight issues I've run into. Everybody's needs are different so you need to consider what you want to do. Personally I have not had good luck trying to buy a quality drill press on the cheap and the realized that drilling is only part of what I want to do. If someone finds a good drill press, (new or used) at a reasonable price, that can often be good enough.QuoteThis is what I ran into, it is surprising how often you want to cut a slot on a electronics project or mechanical apparatus. If you have an interest in robotics that is even more compelling. I at least have some recourse as some items I can take into work but overall a mill is a high priority for me.QuoteCNC doesn't require CAD! CAD might make it a thousand times easier but you can make use of a CNC without a CAD/CAM package. The interesting thing about CNC is that it can actually be cheaper these days to go CNC than to buy or make, all the fixtures required to do everything manually. That said a manual mill is still a very useful tool.Well is it really a big investment in time and money? You look at what people spend on instrumentation around here and it really becomes an issue of personal priorities. If somebody has an interest in making a really unique tube amp, for example, the chassis can be a big part of that. the right tools makes fabrication of that chassis a snap.QuoteWell that depend upon many factors. A commercial machine shop will have many mills of various sizes, most home shops have to compromise as the budgets don't support that. One of the smallest quality mills comes from:https://taigtools.com/and you can go up in size from there.QuoteAlmost all of the low end Chinese mills are considered to be kits. That is they need work to turn them into a machine to do high quality work on. That doesn't mean that they are not useful out of the box. It is simply a price point, even in China labor cost money and you need to be able to charge a decent price to put in that labor.QuoteYes exactly. That is why companies like Taig have been making the same mills for years. The watch and clock making industry for example has had micro lathes available for years, different product a different need.QuoteThere is no perfect answer there. Companies like Precision Mathews and Grizzly in the USA have a range of machines and there are dozens of other importers. In a nut shell a person needs to do some research to figure out what fits his needs.Oh and most importantly a mill is useless if one is not willing to upgrade their machining knowledge. Machining requires a commitment to learn the craft.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 01:00:57 am
content: And yet...OP still has not enlightened us with the tolerances he is seeking. If they are "looks right to me," you can do that with a cordless drill.But we've got a good discussion going about just how many thousands of dollars you need to spend to drill neat holes.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 01:45:54 am
content: I'm sure we will hear further from the OP about his drilling requirements and course of direction.In the meantime, I'm increasingly of the opinion that "why drill when you could also mill?" - but within some budgetary constraints.If a good enough drill press is $100-$200, maybe a good enough mill could be 2-3x? The caveat is that it looks possible that the accessories might take the baseline machine prices up notably. (Accessory Creep.) So with that in mind after reading up on mills, here are a couple that look interesting and that are maybe within or maybe (with accessories) beyond the budget.https://www.amazon.com/Klutch-Mini-Milling-Machine-Watts/dp/B01EGB61FQhttps://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-4-x-16-mini-milling-machine/g8689Precision Mathews looks great but seems to be well beyond the budget.Anyone have any thoughts on these or something you like better that's more cost-effective?

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 02:52:12 am
content: Gotta admit that Bosch drill looks pretty sweet...

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 03:31:56 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 17, 2021, 02:52:12 amI found it rather lightweight and flimsy

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 04:45:49 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on January 17, 2021, 03:31:56 amCompared to 50-100KG Pedestal drill sure but it's not. Mine lives under the bench or on a shelf when not needed and with the modded base does some of the same jobs a Mag base drill can do.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 12:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on January 16, 2021, 10:41:20 pmHa! I was just looking at that one.But it doesn't have an actual quill.Does it wiggle side to side as it goes down the track?My idea was to keep it under the benchanduse it under the bench with the top of the column attached to the underside of the bench.(I don't have a lot of space here and it has to be secured for travel.)

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 02:11:34 pm
content: Steadier than my old 50kg Pedestal drill as far as side to side and very little movement on the track. As far as quill (think you are meaning depth stop?) goes I have done a lot of testing on the digital depth gauge and tend to use that most times as it is very accurate. The Mechanical stop does work well too assuming we are both on the same thought?

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 04:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on January 17, 2021, 02:11:34 pmIsn't the big wheel the only thing that make anything go up and down?Doesn't it move the entire housing/motor/chuck?The chuck doesn't move relative to the housing, does it?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 10:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: Renate on January 17, 2021, 04:59:01 pmCorrect. It is effectively a complete drill driven up and down by the wheel/pinion acting on the fixed steel rack.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 03:28:16 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on January 17, 2021, 12:09:07 amYes, I have a CNC mill, and while I do have a CAD program, I rarely use it. I have written a number of small programs that write very efficient G-code forcommon operations like drilling a list of holes by XY coordinates, boring holes of arbitrary diameter, cutting rectangular openings, etc. These are very fast to use.Jon

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 04:22:19 am
content: That would be really bad for feel when using very small drill bits. It is very easy to break the small drills commonly used in electronics, so you would be back to needing a sensitive drilling attachment.Quote from: beanflying on January 17, 2021, 10:05:36 pm

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 04:35:04 am
content: For those interested on how a machinist would handle manually drilling very small holes, in this case on a lathe, look up Joe Pieczynski on YouTube. He just started a series on building a model lathe and is doing so on a manual machines. This involves drilling holes in a bunch of very small parts.Machinery is only part of the equation, technique can be a huge factor in success. I've mentioned sensitve drilling attachments here but never gave any details, here is an example of one such device:https://www.sherline.com/product/1012-532-sensitive-drilling-attachment/.There are many approaches of course but the general goal is to allow the driller (machinist) the ability to feel what is going on at the cutting edge.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 04:44:07 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on January 18, 2021, 04:22:19 amNot my experience at all. If by 'sensitive' you mean smooth or balanced Rack/Wheel/Spring combo tension against the weight of the head then it is very good.I fail to see how this drill is better or worse than a conventional Pedestal drill and I have owned and used both on small drills over decades. The majority of small drill I have broken over that time is from either Dremel or Hand held drill use where sideways or to much pressure is really easy to make happen.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 12:48:54 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on January 18, 2021, 03:28:16 amI like writing G code too. Usually a profile multi-pass routine and some cut/paste.If you are using somebody else's machine it allows you to maximize your cutting time.I like putting in lots of comments so that I know what I'm doing, "Bottom U cut pass #2".There are online and other G code visualizers so that you can check your work.The worst I hate is that old style graphic design on the mill (like the old Mill-Rite).

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 07:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on January 18, 2021, 03:28:16 amWhat mill are you using? What types of materials are you milling? What is the software that you use for the fast/common operations? Thx

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 09:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 16, 2021, 12:14:45 pmI think it is proxxon tbm 115 (it was a gift) . Tbh, I'm not big fan or proxxon, their tools are too micro. Like, this drill press has only 3cm of vertical travel of chuck. For me this is on the border of being useful. They are also expensive, and quality is not always up to expectations. Overal, I like my drill press, but disappointed with their vices (quality is bad, rubber jaws are easy to fall off) and their mitre saw (it is big, heavy, but it can cut only very tiny things, angle set is not precise due too much slack).

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 11:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: mbless on January 12, 2021, 04:05:21 amThis and a little Tap Magic for aluminum. You'll get perfect round holes with no exit grab or walk.