Ever consider doing an EEVblog forum group build project? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 12:17:49 am
content: I was thinking we all come up with an idea to create something useful that can help people like the "educase" or anything that could be useful. We could all come up with a design and make it modular. Each member would work on one part that we mail off to them then we send it all to one person who hooks it all together. Or better yet we make one for each person contributing so we make five moduals each person making five which will be easy once they make the first one then when its done we send one of each modual to each person for final assembly.

author: sasa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 05:01:50 am
content: Quote from: Beamin on September 03, 2017, 12:17:49 amUnlikely to ever happens...Who are "we" and what is "something useful"? No body will work on benefits to the imaginary "group" or "individual" without exact contract. If you have a fresh, revolutionary idea, make a design, a prototype, estimate initial costs and selling price, target customer group reaction, open a company and get millions over night.Easy as that... or not?Pay attention that using some parts or techniques require to pay fixed or per sold unit fees, regarding patent rights. You should hire bunch of lawyers, which as well will not work for free...

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 06:09:48 am
content: Quote from: sasa on September 03, 2017, 05:01:50 amThat's a pretty bureaucratic view on such an exercise - and I don't think we would stretch any such project into that realm.I'll start off with this thought .... a Rube Goldberg machine with an electronics twist.There's a huge range of possibilities - and it could get really crazy. Just look at the flashing light challenge.I might suggest one idea is to have the most convoluted way to turn on a light when the sun goes down (or the room goes dark).Simply define the interface between modules as a simple logic level - say: an active low will trigger a module that generates an active low when its process has completed. Perhaps use TTL levels as the reference.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 06:26:18 am
content: Another twist .... maybe some modules could have multiple outputs (and use only those needed) and others could have multiple inputs, via a NOR gate for example (tie unused inputs to ground).This could generate multiple "signal" paths - and if several modules are cyclic, with different propagation delays, the resulting "out of step" sequence would result in moments when 1, 2 or 3 triggers are present on a 4 input module for a number of occasions and everybody cheers when all 4 triggers happen at the same time.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 07:16:17 am
content: First problem: finding five users with the same or similar dreams in a country or region with affordable parcel post, competent and active with a soldering iron, and with the spare time and cash to participate.Second problem: getting them all fired up and pointed in the same direction. Hearding hyperactive cats is *MUCH* easier!Third problem: coordinating it all. Unless you've got the soul of a Byzantine bureaucrat, you are *NOT* going to enjoy the experience . . . . .Never the less, collaborative projects do occur here, though the collaboration most often stays virtual rather than shipping hardware around. e.g.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-tester-like-hameg-hz60/

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 01:58:19 am
content: There's very little interest here about actually making things, even just as idle exercises.(On the other hand, there are a lot of professionals here, but as professionals, why bother, right?)At another forum, we briefly had a few rounds of "electronic challenge contest", where participants have some time (a month or so) to design and build a simple circuit that satisfies the relatively simple, often silly, challenge prompt. The results are then judged, and a winner selected. It went pretty well, while there was interest; the problem is keeping it going.Tim

author: buck converter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 02:22:31 am
content: Don't listen to the naysayers. There are definitely at least 5 people on this forum who would go for it. I would be happy to work in a group to make something. I have limited experience and knowledge as a high school teen, but I am competent with SMD and TH soldering. I have a CRO scope, and a passion to learn. I try to get things done without an Arduino because I learn more fundamentals that way. A Rube Goldberg sounds like a good idea. One advantage of this being modular is that say someone is good with HV or Tubes, someone else who is good with Audio, Digital logic, etc could build something awesome.Slack.comis a great way to work together, my robotics team would not work without it. PM me if you want me on your team.

author: cellularmitosis
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 07:39:35 am
content: This is definitely an idea worth trying. A useful exercise, even if it flops.

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 10:41:36 am
content: Well I have seen it and the results were meh...Lets start analyze it a bit. You need a team. The only reason for someone to work with you is because he will earn something like money, experience, fun etc.If you are looking for students, newbies you will find a lot of them because its just an interesting idea.If you are looking for more professional people then you have to convince them that they will earn something that matters to them.For example I am a kick ass embedded developer (Yea I wish for), I would consider joining an audio amplifier project to make IR controller, some bars with FFT etc IF I knew that there is someone who is a kick ass audio engineer and he will make an awesome amplifier. I would earn the schematics for an awesome Amplifier. I wouldn't spend time to do it for someone who tries to build the first schematic that he saw on the google.In that case I would just give some info on a forum.Find an idea, define your goals, introduce yourself and if its interesting people will start to ask questions.Plus it has to be "modular", even different departments in same company can't communicate properly when working on the same thing.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 02:01:27 pm
content: Quote from: sasa on September 03, 2017, 05:01:50 amNot everything is profit or has a bottom line. Some people can work together without legal binding contracts because they are afraid of getting screwed over. I never said anything about making a profitable product to be sold. And yes some people will work together without a "whats in it for me" attitude. Hiring lawyers? What? Have you ever heard of doing things just for fun? I know that's becoming rare this day in age but it still can happen.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 05:15:50 pm
content: Would be a slow process if each person has to wait for the previous to finish before they can even start on their portion.One idea, specify the common connections between each module, then everyone can work on their part at the same time.A further idea is you do the schematic board layout, parts list, but the board gets sent back to another member of the group to assemble, and so on.Everyone gets someone else module to build.

author: sasa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 05:42:41 pm
content: @BeaminYou are still too young and you will learn fast that such concept in electronic is not acceptable.Most useful at least for beginner's is already invented and most of them is available even for homemade. Unless you planing some specific FPGA based project...If you and your team invent something really useful and publish that, I do not really consider you will be please after spending all that time starting from crude idea to polished project that someone else take over all and start to make a profit of. One example of:https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR_TransistortesterAs well you have no exact idea what you want to accomplish and what you expect form your team members, just a wish to do anything useful and expect to each member pay all expenses from his own pocket... And that is clear sign for a waste of time and effort - dead end before begin.Making software this way with even 1000s of team members is common (assuming all are skilled and experience programmers), but making electronic projects according your proposal is another thing. Certainly, you can use proper simulator instead, however that have it's own limitation.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 06:00:29 pm
content: In another thread I just proposed - maybe I wasnt clear enough- but I tried to- that we put our heads together to try to make a better solder fume extractor based on cheap computer parts and the "heat recovery ventilator" principle, ideally one that could be mounted in a window. I actually already have one - an expensive whole house model- and I love it - but its getting on in years.This window mounted- small HRV is something we all could use for solder fume extraction. It's core would require some metalworking perhaps.. (but perhaps not!)As far as what is electronic? The motor controls for one.I suspect that we could figure out a way to make one cheaply, together.It could help a lot more people than just us. We're a target audience that needs one the most however.Disclosure, I got very very sick from indoor air once in the past. And it stole years of my life. So I am a zealot of sorts for these things.I think that the current "fume extractors" people are using are not extracting anything and are misrepresenting the situation. HEPA filtration is good for particles but exhausting all fumes out and replacing them with fresh air is best.See photo of how HRVs work. They pay for themselves in energy savings in just a short time, I think.HRVs are a big part of passive house designs. (houses that use practically no net energy!)

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 07:40:01 pm
content: Crowdsourcing seems like a great idea butit's a myth we should dispel.And instead of clinging to the fantasy it is, we should figure out how to make it successful. The rare project get finished, but the majority fizzle out. I don't see the community/group build concept working.Jeff Howe is big on it, for over 10 years. He wrote ahttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Crowdsourcing-Power-Driving-Future-Business/dp/0307396215]book and numerous articles for Wired Magazine. Mainly trying to get big business to.. ahem.. utilize it. So a business gets to profit from the input of the 1000's in the crowd. I thought it was a gross concept.Local Motorsseemed to have tried it with thehttp://rallyfighter.com/the-rally-fighter/]Rally Fighter car. It looked great to crowdsource a car:https://www.wired.com/2009/11/crowd-sourced-rally-racer-rolls-toward-production/]Crowd-Sourced Rally-Racer Rolls Toward Production... and it fizzled out.We could get into a pissing match about how open-source hardware works or how it does not, or accept that it is failing to thrive.There are dozens of obstacles to overcome. We could talk about them, I'm trying to be realistic as there are great ideas, great needs, great projects but they can't get off the ground or they run out of runway.{mods maybe this thread is best in open source forum}

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 12:25:30 am
content: Aren't open source hardware and"crowdfunding"twocompletely separate,arguably unrelated things?Open source hardware is just one form of cooperative creativity.We already know that cooperation gets us much farther than adversarial creativity. Crowdfunding is still kind of the old model where one person or one small group of people seek funding. It is just a variant of the traditional model that tries to avoid the pitfalls of venture capitalism by having many small investors who seem to have virtually no legal rights.Formal or informal, it doesn't matter what people do, as long as they have fun doing it and LEARN STUFF and fun often equals success. Life is too short to spend it all not having fun.

author: buck converter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 12:42:51 am
content: This thread is not for those who are afraid of failure or don't know how to work with each other. Ever hear of the quote "fail and fail often".Beamin made it clear this is not about money, profit or even a real product. He just wants to work with people with a common goal - To make something, learn something, and work together. Don't have that goal? We don't need to know why. I understand if you don't want me since I am still in high school, but unlike the "professionals", I am not afraid to fail, orto even try.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 09:50:43 am
content: Dunno, the areas of interest here are rather disparate so one single 'idea' would only be attractive to a narrow band of users, for instance, I've a challenge going with another member here to build a <£30 SSB single band transceiver which we've discussed starting a thread on but writing rules, setting objectives etc. and publishing them as a 'challenge' for the wider community seems like an invite for a lot of non productive discussion, plus the transceiver would be illegal to use for a non-ham (and, it has to be said, for me too at the level of licence I have thus far) so by its very definition it's limited immediately to the Ham members hereIf there's to be a group build challenge I feel it needs to be simple, something amusing (flashing light prize for instance) and one that rewards quirky, unusual uses of parts.Keeping that sort of thing going, not so simple.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 10:48:33 am
content: Possibly one of the reason why response has been mixed is that many like to do their own thing in the spare time we get. One is accountable to no one and can progress at our own pace.While not a group project, another possibility could be some sort of challenge based on a very cheap commonly available kit and what you could do with it.I don't know about other areas of electronics but in radio there is a super cheap ($4) kit that's ingenious but gives appalling performance (it's underpowered and oversimplified).But the cost of the kit is less than individual parts and there's heaps of stuff you could do with it. It's cheap enough to buy several and experiment.Challenge participants could then make videos etc of their modifications or alternative uses.Still, as someone before said it might be easier herding cats unless someone (eg the kit supplier who stands to benefit) runs a competition or similar.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 11:01:51 am
content: Sounds like it could be interesting to those who might have the time. Post some of your best ideas for a project and see if they have any hits.Just remember though, this was your idea, so that automatically means that you must be the project coordinator/integrator.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 11:20:07 am
content: Quote from: vk3yedotcom on September 05, 2017, 10:48:33 amThose little Pixie kits are 'adequate', I've heard stories of them having wrong parts or oddball transistors supplied in the packs and documentation is a bit sparse. I'm hoping the one I've just ordered arrives in time as it's going to be the 'practical' part of my intermediate licence assessment (recommended by the instructor)

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 12:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on September 05, 2017, 11:20:07 amThis is true. The ones I've had just have a parts list and schematic. The schematic erroneously labelled what should be 100pF as 100uF and I think the part supplied was different again. Also there is sometimes a mismatch between components supplied and the values on the diagram. For instance 10nF may be supplied rather than 100nF on the circuit. Provided the error is in a non-critical part of the circuit (eg bypass capacitors) you can use different values to no ill effect.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 07:42:54 pm
content: I'm saying there first needs to be a new way to do group builds.There always is excitement, unicorns, rainbows, excitement about building something.... and it fizzles out.Look at the dozens of (open-source) threads here that did not make fruition.OP's idea to make the product modular helps to divvy it up into smaller chunks.But you still need a leader to coordinate and manage everything.Volunteering is limited for personal time/$/energy/commitment. It's like a second job but with no pay, actually losing personal money. What are the limits?Putting a design project as a challenge or contest solves nothing. It does not pave the way for group builds and better organizing them. It's just an incentive, a carrot dangling.Even crowdfunding, to get money for regulatory testing, plastic molds, batch builds etc. still needs a central agent, a coordinator for the venture.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 08:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: sasa on September 04, 2017, 05:42:41 pmHow do you know how old I am? Or how much experience I have managing a business, people, logistics or working on electronics? Seems like an arrogant overly negative statement and certainly not contributing any ideas or solutions. In my younger days I was a political activist and you would be surprised what I was able to accomplish when I got people together and led the group. I was certainly surprised myself. You would also be surprised how much you can motivate an individual by telling them they can't do something. My high school principle told me I would go nowhere in life because I was board with school. A few years later he was a customer of my company but had no idea I founded it. So I sent him a thank you letter on company letter head in the mail for his business and signed the bottom with a "thank you" for motivating me to prove him wrong. Knowing him he was probably pissed that I was making more money then him but I really didn't care. But negativity like that can also work in the opposite direction.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 11:28:26 pm
content: I think the Open Source Motor Controller project (OSMC) was a collaborative project among robotics enthusiasts:https://hackaday.com/2005/12/28/open-source-motor-controller/There was a group wide need for a more capable motor controller so a bunch of people got together (on Yahoo Groups, I believe) and came up with a very nice design.

author: buck converter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2017, 12:39:43 am
content: Why are we even debating if it is possible build something together? I see enough people on this thread who want to try it out. @Beamin - is this happening or not?

author: sasa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2017, 01:42:37 am
content: Quote from: Beamin on September 05, 2017, 08:51:12 pmWhy then ask here anything and pretend that you are absolute beginner and ignorant? I do not appreciate such behavior and manipulation a bit.If you want something, offer the proper amount of money to professionals here and then you will probably have a dream team to accomplish what ever you want. That would be much more fair, instead to play some games around.Indeed it is pointless to debate anything further.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2017, 02:05:08 am
content: Quote from: sasa on September 06, 2017, 01:42:37 amSteady on.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2017, 04:32:05 am
content: Quote from: buck converter on September 06, 2017, 12:39:43 amHmmm... Now I need to think of ideas to build. I like to make tx rx pairs that send telemetry and play around with making the best antenna at the lowest power.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2017, 10:05:01 am
content: That's another great idea that unfortunately has legal problems unless you hold an Amateur Radio Licence or a FCC Experimental Licence. Even if you use an unmodified type approved RF module on one of the bands permitting licence free data transmissions, if your antenna modification increases the EIRP past the FCC limit for that band and class of device, you've just committed a federal offence (seehttps://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/unauthorized-radio-operation). Then its a lottery if anyone notices and complains. Odds are you'll get away with a slap on the wrist or a small fine + confiscation of your equipment, but is it really worth it?Its certainly possible to 'fly under the radar' with home-built transmitters, if you strictly stick to ISM bands and 'play nice' with other spectrum users, but as you would be operating illegally, and need to maintain plausible deniability it would be a *really* *stupid* idea to try to make it a public project.The only remaining fully legal option for everyone would be to use a type approved licence free data transmitter module (not a transceiver) with an antenna that meets the applicable EIRP limit, and concentrate on modifications to improve receiver performance.@The hams amongst us,Would you be interested in an experimental short range datalink project (within your licence limitations)?@The non-hams,Would you be interested in a LEGAL experimental short range datalink project: e.g ultrasonic or optical link, or reciever only mods?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 12:27:28 am
content: I'm pretty sure this won't work. The people of this forum were not any help whatsoever when I tried to get help with my project. I don't think anyone actually knows what they are talking about or they would have helped me. It's not like I was trying to do anything too complicated....https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/i-would-like-to-build-a-mars-rover-for-mars-please-help/?all

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 01:02:03 am
content: The reason there was little interest in your Mars Lander is that it had already been done - in 1997. What's the point in re-inventing the wheel?These days we have Arduinos to blink LEDs and drive Landers. Already done and over with.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 01:42:07 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 09, 2017, 01:02:03 amIt's not a Lander.... it's a ROVER! It's right in the thread title... mars ROVER for mars!... No wonder I couldn't get anyone to help me!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 02:42:17 am
content: Group builds are impossible due to trolls. Adding that to the list.Reddit and Voat use up/down votes to improve the signal/noise ratio of their posted content.It's not a perfect scheme but the forums here don't have that, and I do see threads ending in flames.Instead of anything constructive, or positive.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 07:15:35 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on September 09, 2017, 02:42:17 amIt's also impossible to bring rational arguments to a thread polluted by irrational or poorly-formed ideas. I could try and reply to every such comment in a thread, but the main result will be furrowing of brows, as most people don't know how to accept criticism, either.A true democracy (like Reddit) has the problem that its average opinion can only ever possibly mirror the average opinion of its readers. The tyranny of the masses has never in history been as pure as it is now.Democracy isn't bad. If you want cute pictures of puppies, it works fantastically. The average interest in puppies is very high (sorry, Bront).But the average interest in highly technical subjects, such as are often seen here, is very low. Authoritative posters have no hope of being heard over the clamor of the crowds, and you get mediocre projects like the 30V 3A bench supply meme.Yeah, rational thought is slaughtered upon the altar of democracy. (Do you like that? It's about as dramatic as it is overstated, but it captures the idea in a jarring way, doesn't it?)Tim

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 09:03:56 am
content: What a bunch of negativity in this thread.With these attitudes we would still live in cavesAlso, some people seem to be pretty much brainwashed by the bureaucracy and strictness.Yes, this can easily be done, in fact I have run similar projects like this, and are even running an international project at the moment.It's just a matter of having an idea, finding people that would like to help, divide the tasks and every now and than meet up (via skype, whatsapp, e-mail) to discuss the issues.Similar to this, I have actually done quite some remote work for companies.Never had to touch a soldering iron with these projects, just a matter of working out ideas and designs. 90% can be done on paper or software.For just a hobby project; you never know your luck.Maybe it will end up in nice friendships, a great product or something else.Or maybe you don't get anything out of it, than it was just for the experience and fun.So I don't see why you wouldn't just try it?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 09:39:37 am
content: Quote from: b_force on September 09, 2017, 09:03:56 amI was thinking the same thing.All I can say is that those who see no future with such an enterprise can exercise their right to ignore it.As an adaptation of a statement by General George S. Patton goes:

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 01:14:16 pm
content: I'll choose "Get The Hell Out Of The Way!"For a group project to succeed, you need to find a group - hence the name 'group project' and that's the problem. What project generates enough interest for a sizable group of talented people to get involved?For me, it would have to be an FPGA project and not too close to the bleeding edge. I have no interest in audio. I have no interest in RF or communications - I buy communications. Again, no interest in automotive or even home automation. I buy battery chargers! There seem to be a lot of threads re: building a lab power supply. I bought a lab supply after decades of using wall warts, batteries and open frame 5V linear supplies. I'm of the opinion that it takes too much time and costs too much money to possibly compete with reputable manufactured supplies. Again, an area of no interest.I would be interested in retro computing because, well, I was there when it wasn't retro. But after doing 3 or 4 Z80 projects, it would have to be a pretty spectacular project to bother spending time. And, if the project were interesting enough, why would I need a group? I can do the research and build it myself.The sandbox where I play gets pretty small, my interests are very specific and I don't have all that much talent.As to Reddit, Snapchat, Twitter, Facebook, etc - I have no idea what these are about; I don't have an account with any of them.So, I'll get the hell out of the way and let the others get on with it. Best wishes!

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 03:32:41 pm
content: Dig your head in the sand and hide!Than you're at least sure you won't find anything.You can also just start exploring, see what it brings.Doesn't hurt, and I think (I am sure) you will be surprised how many similar minded people there are!

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2017, 06:06:57 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 09, 2017, 01:02:03 amI have been so desensitized to the lack of humor on technical forums that I totally thought this was serious. The thought of meeting some of the people on Arduino forums in real life makes me cringe. These are the people who you say: "Google sarcasm" and they would google it read the Wikipedia page on it and come back with an error report on things they found wrong with the code on the page then arrogantly question your intelligence for coming up with a response that didn't follow a logical link between the definition and your response.