Ridiculous pcb pricing - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 07:49:15 pm
content: Ok I just placed an order with ElecrowSeven differand pcbsQuantity 10 of each (70 boards)two layer SMOBC6/6mil trace/space15 mil viasmost 10X10 cm0.6mm, 0.8mm 1.0mm & 1.6mm thickDelivery 7-9 days to USADHL charge $21No VAT tax !Total cost $65.01 (what are you kidding)The shop in Colorado I used for many years wants $1300 for qu:10, 0.6mm, 4/4mil, 8mil-via, bla,bla,bla

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 08:16:54 pm
content: The US suppliers seem uninterested in competing for that corner of the PCB business. Low volume, time-insensitive, price-sensitive customers just aren't that valuable to them (or so it appears from their market positioning).Fair enough; I go elsewhere when someone else addresses my market needs better.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 08:53:15 pm
content: I think they are not able to compete with factories that get free energy and ultra low cost employees without pension or other benefits and no laws where to dump their toxic waste.These prices can not be sustainable for the long term.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 09:03:08 pm
content: Apart from what it was already pointed out, most of the PCB houses can not do 8 mil vias, or 4 mil traces, especially the cheap ones.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 09:23:18 pm
content: That just sounds like a "fuck off small orders" price.Some are just uninterested in those orders as they know they can't come even close to the Chinese , so they pump up the price to chase you away and keep the schedule open for companies interested in a more advanced PCBs (# layers, etc.) and reliable service.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 09:30:29 pm
content: The only PCB companies left in USA are the ones doing ITAR jobs, and those doing ultra high end quickturn.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 09:43:53 pm
content: High value added products, to economists. Thats what global value chains are all about..Except the ones they want to keep here, keep getting fewer and fewer.What are all those people going to do. They cant ALL be rocket scientists?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 09:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: BBBbbb on September 11, 2017, 09:23:18 pmThat just sounds like cutting of your nose to spite your face, if that indeed is the case. As actual PCB manufacturing costs have come down (better processes, better automation) I haven't seen any downward shifting in domestic prices. I just think that domestic manufacturers are hoping to have their cake and eat it by maintaining prices at the sort of level that they have traditionally charged. Eventually economics will catch up with them and they won't be in business any more as all the work will have gone overseas. If there is work left that can't, for whatever reasons, go overseas someone will work out that they can do the work at half the price currently being asked, set up to do so and snatch that final bit of work from the existing manufacturers too.I'd happily pay a few quid more to keep the PCB businesses in the UK ticking over, I'm sure that our 'merkin friends are likewise happy to pay a few dollars more to keep the US manufacturing industry in existence. What none of us are prepared to do is pay 10x as much for the warm fuzzy feeling of domestic manufacture.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2017, 10:20:00 pm
content: >These prices can not be sustainable for the long term.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 05:05:24 am
content: What caused the water to go that colour?

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 06:10:19 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 11, 2017, 09:55:43 pmwhy not stay in the mainland instead? i was really suprised when i first asked the prices we pay for getting boards done at work (from all our suppliers). especially the price difference between 2 and 4 layers. especially for 100-300 boards per order.not surpisingly, all of our manufacturers don't have an instant quote feature on their website, you call the guy on the phoneeven less surprising, some of them have the PCB facilities in eastern europe (croatia/romania/poland.. those places) to lower costs but without sacrificing quality (they have them, they are not outsourcing!)I am seeing more and more products going back from being made in "china" to being made in "somewhere east europe", that makes sense. it can still be cheaper, not as much, but you have the control on what they are doing and there's a better chance that the people there will understand you and you them.

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 06:24:37 am
content: There's more things than price and deliver-times that come into play when you're an actual company.How many of the Chinese fabs are ISO14001 certified? I'd venture a guess at "very few".

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 06:30:41 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 11, 2017, 09:55:43 pmThe investments for this kind of equipment are no longer done "here". They are done in the far east. And if they are done, they will be targetted for the high end market, where people will happily pay a hefty premium as long as they can order with 100% confidence. They will not compete on price because its a game they can't win.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 01:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 12, 2017, 06:29:19 amWe usually have 8-12 weeks lead time because of components sourcing, pcbs are usually ready in 1-2 weeks.Then you don't want the cheap (or not so cheap) chinese assembly houses screwing you over by using non-lead free even though you stated you wanted lead free process, or screwing you over because they used lesser-quality or "compatible" or plain different components even though you provided partnumbers and manufacturers they were required to use. Then you receive your boards.. and what are you going to do? many times it is cheaper and/or quicker to flip them off, get another source to make new boards than send the lot back and wait for them to fix the errors.If your assembly house in in your state.. or for us in EU things are simpler because regulations, not needing visas.. and if you just have to ship things back it's not going to cost you an arm and a leg (And having to deal with customs another two times)

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 02:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on September 12, 2017, 06:30:41 amIf they did make the investments "here" then they could compete on quality, "buying British/'merkin/German/whatever" and "a price that isn't as good as china, but isn't eyewateringly high".My two main issues with using China are shipping issues (delays, cost, random and apparently arbitrary customs charges) and getting support (in the broadest sense) in a language that I and the manufacturer both clearly understand. I'm prepared to pay a premium to overcome those, but it's a premium around the 50-100% mark, not a premium in the 1000s of percent bracket.I'm sure that I'm not the only customer for that. There's a niche here.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 03:03:32 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on September 12, 2017, 01:16:06 pmIs there a test for this? How can you know?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 03:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 12, 2017, 02:42:33 pmOnce you get into quantities of several panels, there are some reasonable alternatives - My local UK place ( Screenbond ) is typically less than 2x PCBCART and similar to Eurocircuits, and much more flexible & responsive.But for the 1-off small prototype PCB, only a poolng service is going to be a sensible price, and the manufacturer needs to have the throughput for pooling to be viable, or at least for them to turn it round in a reasonable time.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 03:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 12, 2017, 03:03:32 pmX-ray fluorescence spectrometer, or chemical tests like this :http://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-LeadCheck-Instant-Lead-Test-Swabs-2-Pack-LC-2SDC6/203313743

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 03:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 12, 2017, 03:13:16 pmWell that's the issue isn't it. A lot of "not-chinese" suppliers will make a board for, say, £10, but will charge £300 NRE on it. If you make 1000, who cares that there's 30p NRE on each board, heck I could negotiate the £300 off that £10,300 production run before I'd had my morning coffee. The changes that have happened in process and equipment, like Gerber direct to board, have cut thecostsfor NRE, but haven't been reflected in thepricingfor NRE, except from the Chinese suppliers.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 04:06:09 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 12, 2017, 03:14:37 pmBeware of the latter for testing boards. I can think of two reasons why they may be inappropriate.1) They may be way too sensitive and throw false positives. They are designed for detecting lead at the surface of paint, where the concentration will be perforce quite low. A board that has been through a lead-free process in a factory that also has leaded processes might pick up enough of a trace of lead to have no practical implications but that might still be enough to trigger a positive reading from a test like those.2) Those tests are targeted at, and qualified for, the presence of leadsalts, specifically carbonate and chromate. They may react very differently to elemental lead and lead oxides, which is what one would expect to see from lead based electronics processes.I'd treat those as "not suited to this purpose" unless someone has clear evidence to the contrary.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 04:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 12, 2017, 03:03:32 pmon the top of my head1)board doesn't work.replace mcu.board works2)board doesn't work, bluetooth SOC doesn't respond to AT commands/configuration routinedesolder bluetooth SOC, it turns out it's a very simillar fake/clone, said to be functionally equivalent (it isn't, we can't program it can we?) of which we can't find certifications (so we can't sell the product).solder genuine bluetooth SOC. board works.3)boards use a very specific rotary switch (industrial temperature range, mechanically strong, tall and sealed so it surives potting)boards arrive with a different rotary switch (functionally equivalent, much much cheaper though they were paid the quoted price to use the requested partnumber)

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 06:28:06 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on September 12, 2017, 04:20:29 pmNone of those have anything to do with RoHS/lead-free, though...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 09:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 12, 2017, 04:06:09 pmYour first reason is actually cause for concern. If trace amounts are left behind, you may very well get in trouble when a RoHS check is performed.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 09:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 12, 2017, 09:24:52 pmYes and no. The limit for lead in RoHS is 1000ppm, which is pretty high and would require quite substantial gross contamination to fail as long as it's assayed using a suitable method. Like I said, my concern is a false positive from a (possibly unsuitable) presumptive test. If it isn't backed up by a proper quantitative test you could end up beating up your supplier when there isn't really a problem.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 05:56:21 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 12, 2017, 06:28:06 pmyes, sorry. that was more of a guess: visual differences between joints and different temperature needed for rework between batches and between through hole / smt parts. given the rest (and the fact that sometimes they charge you extra for leadfree, sometimes not) one can get suspiciousi can already read the email in my mind: "the purchase manager told us this was rohs compatible"

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 08:31:57 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 12, 2017, 03:13:16 pmMy experience also. Once you order higher numbers (like, a thousand boards), the EU manufacturers are quite competitive. Pricing is usually higher, but you loose the price advantage at import tax, and delays. Unless you have a very good agreement with a chinese board house, they also want pre-payment, which is a big no-no. Also, corretcting mistakes, the EU board houses are just better.Once I had an order, which had a mistake with the milling. After telling them, Eurocircuits sent me new boards in 2 days, free of charge. Try doing this with a chinese order. In the long run, it is just better to order european.And the development process should handle that few hundred extra.The only part, where the chinese makes sense is small numbers and hobby.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 08:42:22 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on September 13, 2017, 08:31:57 amThe difference will become less but there is still a huge difference.Just use pcbshopper and try a standard 2 layer board 8x8cm and a 1000 pieces.The chinese are shipping them for €0,50 and eurocircuit asks €2.52 a piece (one USA manufacturer even dares to ask >8€ per board).That is still a difference of 5 times! , if you take in the VAT and duties you still have the boards for <€0,70 (3,6x cheaper).Now if I would run production I also would choose the european manufacturer but don't use price as an argument, it is not valid.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 09:28:13 am
content: I did the same calculation, and for me it was 0.5 EUR/EA + 120 EUR shipping (ALLPCB). Customs will charge about 25% for that, so it will be about 780 EUR. Eurocircuits gave me 1180 EUR for the same calculation.So the difference is 35%, not 3.6 times.If you switch on options, like silkscreen both sides, ENIG, IPC600 certification (they actually know what they are doing), .15mm spacing, and search for a manufacturer, which does 100% testing, suddenly it is not that cheap. It was PCBJoint, which charges 1165EUR including shipping. All these is included in the Eurocircuits offer.That being said, I usually dont do 2 layer boards. And the last project I've finished, the PCB was 5% of the total BOM.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 11:07:53 am
content: Not sure you can find publicly stated pricing for high volume from many EU suppliers.I do believe that pricing gets a lot closer to the Chinese once they are sure you're serious and need high volume. Keep in mind that even 2x the price from a local supplier is very competitive, since you have fast delivery (just customs can add several days), good/fast communication, and in a lot of cases available certification that you might be needing to get your end product certified.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 05:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: BBBbbb on September 13, 2017, 11:07:53 amMany EU suppliers source from China for larger orders

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 07:43:18 pm
content: They are giving up lots of business to foreign firms because they don't want low margin business, you're right. the same shifts are happening in virtually all kinds of businesses, both goods and services. The ones that cant be automated and even many that can are being shifted to where they are done the cheapest. Sometimes, thats a vast data center and the businesses become largely virtual, others which still require some human labor shift it to giant facilities built in low wage, low regulation countries.At this point most of those facilities are still owned by local corporations based in those countries, but a plethora of rules involving both goods and services and how corporations are allowed to favor or disfavor local content and ownerships are likely to change soon, allowing them to do basically whatever they want, whatever makes them the most money, maybe within this year, as they are the #1 agenda item it seems atto the Buenos Aires WTO ministerial. Jobs and investment in facilities are like poker chips in a vast international game.It seems as if a lot is on the table. Changes are not always well thought out and whenever a great many longstanding things change at the same time, lasting, irreversible changes occur and those changes are less and less predictable..Arguments are being made that this "global value chains" approach results in everything costing less, and the freeing up of billions of workers to produce more high valued services, but realistically, will they ever find jobs? Most wont. So, its anybody's bet what will happen.Once a business that captures an essential industry becomes the sole provider, its not going to lower prices.Also, the locking down of customers options at that point means they wont get a better value or more choices for their money. they will be trapped.Quote from: Ice-Tea onYesterdayat 00:30:41>Quote from: Cerebus on 2017-09-11, 15:55:43The investments for this kind of equipment are no longer done "here". They are done in the far east. And if they are done, they will be targeted for the high end market, where people will happily pay a hefty premium as long as they can order with 100% confidence. They will not compete on price because its a game they can't win.