(Video) Rigol DSA1030A-TG3 Spectrum Analyzer Review and Experiments - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 05:00:24 am
content: In this episode Shahriar extensively reviews the Rigol DSA1030A-TG3 Spectrum Analyzer. A wide variety of experiments are performed using the Rigol spectrum analyzer to serve both as a tutorial to use the instrument and to demonstrate its capabilities. Some measurement results are also performed using other calibrated instruments to verify the accuracy of the spectrum analyzer. The Rigol DSA1030A-TG3 can be purchased directly from Rigol Inc.The following experiments are performed:1 ) Signal amplitude, frequency and phase-noise measurements.2 ) Low amplitude signal measurements (< -130dBm).3 ) Low frequency measurement capabilities (< 9kHz).4 ) PRBS length calculations and characterization.5 ) Wireless 2.5GHz FM signal transmission and demodulation.6 ) Attenuator and band-pass filter response measurements.7 ) Amplifier bandwidth and output compression measurements.8 ) Calibration and measurements of VSWR using the tracking generator.9 ) Characterization of the tracking generator signal quality.See the video review here: [1 Hour & 32 Minutes]http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/2012/11/19/rigol-dsa1030a-tg3-spectrum-analyzer-review-and-experiments/More videos at The Signal Path:http://www.TheSignalPath.com

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 06:56:39 pm
content: Excellent and interesting review, Shahriar. Many thanks.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 05:37:48 am
content: Quote from: deephaven on November 19, 2012, 06:56:39 pmThank you. I would be interested to hear what everyone thinks about this unit as well.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 06:11:43 am
content: I like the spec an very much, comparably compact when placed next to a Hameg HMS3010the key features i like (But of course ... it's quite expensive but it rocks features you won't find at this price bracket)1) -148dBm DANL2) 10Hz Min RBW3) Proper multiple page datasheet!Rigol's done a very good job i reckon

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 09:28:42 am
content: always informative and "bang per minute" video. the unit (and the price too i believe) is very interesting.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 09:48:38 am
content: Very nice, but you'd expect that for the price, which is 4 times the price of the DSA-815-TG.Different instrument class though, and still better bang-per-buck than the big brands it seemsDave.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 03:05:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2012, 09:48:38 amHey Dave,Yes, I agree with you. If you don't need the -148 DANL and the 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the cheaper units will be just fine. By the way, how is Sagan doing these days? Have you thought him to use the scope yet?

author: RCMR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 08:41:13 pm
content: The biggest feature is the 3GHz upper limit. With increasing amounts of 2.4GHz stuff out there, a 1.5GHz SA is somewhat limiting (for me).

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 08:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: RCMR on November 20, 2012, 08:41:13 pmThey do also offer 3GHz models which are cheaper (they don't offer the built-in pre-amplifier and the 10Hz RBW).

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 08:51:22 pm
content: Thanks, very educational (for me) I understand the value of a spectrum analyzer with TG much better now.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 09:43:18 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on November 20, 2012, 03:05:33 pmOf course!Dave.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 10:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 20, 2012, 09:43:18 pmThat is brilliant! He is on his way!

author: notsob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 10:39:28 pm
content: Can't wait to see him put liquid paper(whiteout) on the screen

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 02:49:33 am
content: Quote from: notsob on November 20, 2012, 10:39:28 pmHe seemed very interested in the lit buttons!

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 09:22:23 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on November 20, 2012, 08:51:22 pmI have an HP unit with an external HP offset tracking generator. The "offset" tracking adds a whole new level of functionality for measuring non-linear circuit behavior (like mixers).

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 10:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on November 22, 2012, 09:22:23 pmSounds like another excellent video for the to do list

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2012, 10:56:46 pm
content: Is the preamp placed before or after the mixer? If it placed before the mixer, what happens to the signal if you have a very small signal, let's say -100dBm or so at 1GHz, and a strong signal that's out of the selected span?

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2012, 06:44:59 am
content: Quote from: Lukas on November 22, 2012, 10:56:46 pmThe preamplifier is placed at the front-end, on the RF path before the mixer. This is the only configuration which lowers the total system noise figure (and thus improved the SNR). An amplifier which is placed after the mixer (on the IF path) can no longer lower the mixer's noise figure. An IF amplifier can be used to boost the signal (in combination with a variable gain amplifier) in order to take full advantage of the IF ADC full-scale input.For your second question, you are absolutely right that a strong imposing signal can cause problems while trying to measure a small tone. It depends on the total linearity of the preamplifier, mixer and whether tuneable filters are used or not. I will check the system block diagram of the Rigol DSA and let you know.

author: billclay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2013, 10:10:08 pm
content: Shahriar, your videos are very educational and I appreciate the time you put into them.However, I was waiting for you to knock over that huge goblet of wine on your test equipment...

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2013, 04:20:06 am
content: Quote from: billclay on January 04, 2013, 10:10:08 pmWine makes everything better!

author: David
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 02:40:04 pm
content: Does anyone know if Rigol offer an "EMI Kit" like they do for the DSA815 for the DSA1030A? I'm thinking of purchasing one for some conducted emissions pre-compliance but can't seem to find an answer on this!Dave

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 04:15:03 pm
content: Shahriar, you have the cleanest, most elaborately expensive electronics labs I have ever seen! If I was wearing a hat, I would take it off for you. One question: where did you get those high quality N/BNC/SMA cables?Also, since you're on the subject of spectrum analyzers, any chance you could make a video on measuring antennas (VSWR etc). I happen to have a Rigol DSA-815-TG sitting at my desk collecting dust... I wouldn't mind learning some new RF stuff.Cheers!

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 06:41:06 pm
content: @ hugoneusCompliments, this is how like a review to be. Good reference sources, solid explanation of what you do and we see. It is not often I have not found one single minor point.I like your lab, very impressive and a very clean, ergonomic set up. I even more like your gear.Is this your hobby lab ? Are you a nerdwork analyser fan tooi'm jalous for your cal kit. I would like a professional one too but I have no acces to a calibrated anlyser so I do not dare to buy a used one because an older prof kit without known parameters can still be not very usefull.I assume you do RF enginering for a living ( and some network analysis)Keep up this good work.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2013, 02:39:33 pm
content: You mentioned that the display wasn't as bright as you wished, can you or anyone expand on this?What other negatives did you find?

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2013, 05:32:48 pm
content: QuoteI'm not sure about the DSA1030A-TG3, but I own the DSA815-TG, and it has a menu option to allow the display's brightness to be increased/decreased. By default, the brightness of the DSA815 is only set to around half of its maximum... perhaps there's some wiggle room in yours as well?Hope this helps

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 12:52:18 am
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on February 06, 2013, 06:41:06 pmSorry, I just saw these messages!Yes, this is my personal lab, 15 years in the making.As for my professional life, I am a technical manager at Bell Labs in NJ.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 12:31:25 pm
content: Quick review.I have had this model with the TG for a couple of weeks to evaluate it to see if I would keep it. Unfortunately I didn't, I wound up sending it back. Briefly;Pros;1. Price (what else can be said here),2. Size & weight,3. Great US support,4. Cost for the TG is more than reasonable unlike most others where you get gouged,5. Preamp included, not a add on,6. Thirty day return satisfaction return policy. They even pay for shipping both ways. I haven't heard of that anywhere before.Cons;1.The screen update rate is only 5Hz!I never heard of anything that slow.2. Input level overload is 10db less than most others causing a problem in strong signal areas as where I am in,3. Only four markers, or four marker pairs. (Sorry, I'm spoiled by having nine),4. Position of the handle needs to be moved forward to balance the unit better. As it is, it leans back at the bottom when you lift the scope up, collapsing the tilt legs which is annoying. (Yes, that may be nit picking, but still a issue if you have to move it often).Regarding the #1 deal breaker; I can't imagine why this was a cost issue. As I stated, even the cheapest consumer LCD monitor can show a display rate of 60Hz. What this means is what my eye sees the equivalent of a 100ms sweep or in same cases 75ms depending on settings. Anything below that, I couldnotsee any difference in the display of the trace even though the sweep rate goes down to 10ms. In other words, what good are those slower speeds if you can't see them??As soon as I powered this up with no input attached, I saw this, but kinda dismissed it for the time until I dug into this further. When I asked about this and was told the rewrite rate was only 5Hz I was dumbfounded. When I inquired about this I was told even the 1030 is this way. I threw in the towel and sent it back. I was ready to step up to the 1030, but no way can that be justified in that price range. I canmaybeunderstand on a $1500 SA, but on a $5k model??This is really too bad as I enjoyed conversing with their technical department.(Corrected & clarified some terms.)

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 12:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: videobruce on August 03, 2013, 12:31:25 pmwtf? seriously, what are you talking about? LCD refresh rate 5Hz?

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 01:23:40 pm
content: The update rate of the display. The scope can sweep faster than the screen can update.(Corrected incorrect terms.)

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 02:56:26 pm
content: of course i know what refresh rate means, i would not say that "you have no idea what you talking about" .. but you know what, go figure !

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 03:01:10 pm
content: The circuity between the actual SA and screen seems to be where the problem is with these scopes.(corrected comments)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 08:16:41 pm
content: Quote from: videobruce on August 03, 2013, 03:01:10 pmIf it has an LCD screen the refreshrate of the display is probably somewhere between 40 and 70Hz. But that is completely irrelevant. The screen update rate is probably 5Hz (200ms) which is more than enough because if something is displayed for only 200ms you'll miss it if you blink your eyes.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 10:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: videobruce on August 03, 2013, 03:01:10 pmI haven't asked what refresh rate is but wtf are you talking about.Fyi, there is no video chipset but an FPGA, the display is directly driven, the refresh rate is definitely 30-70Hz simply because it have to be within the display specs. I bet it runs at 60Hz. And asnctnicosaid, refresh rate have nothing to do with what you observed on screen.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2013, 11:30:39 pm
content: I think what VB means is that the 'rewrite' rate (of new screen data) is very slow.i.e. how often it writes new trace data rather than the native refresh rate of the LCD display itself which could be 60Hz.You can see in the video that the analyser is often very slow even with a 100ms sweep time. Presumably there is a processing overhead that adds a big chunk of time on top of the sweep time it displays. It seems worse on large spans and presumably this is to do with the way it pieces together the large span as individual chunks of captured spectrum. On narrower spans where the whole span fits inside the digital IF the display rewrite speed looks a fair bit faster even though it still says 100ms sweep time.So to me the analyser often looks really slow and I'm comparing against my analysers that are are over 25 years old but can process a 1000 x 1000 point display very quickly using 1980s tech.The phase noise is quite poor on that analyser too. At 21:12 in the video the Miteq phase noise is 'measured' as about -107dBc/Hz at 100kHz offset. I don't know what datasheet is being referred to in the video but I would expect the Miteq test oscillator to achieve -130dBc/Hz at 100kHz offset and NOT -107dBc/Hz.If we assume the Rigol spec is typically -88dBc/Hz at 10kHz offset then it will be roughly 20dB better at 100kHz and this will be -108dBc/Hz which is close to what is seen in the video.I think the 600MHz Miteq oscillator will easily meet -130dBc/Hz at 100kHz offset because it is a fixed frequency reference. My 1980s Advantest analyser has a typical carrier noise of -128dBc/Hz at a 100kHz offset so would get closer to measuring the true noise of the Miteq. But realistically you would need a signal source analyser to measure the Miteq properly. eg an Agilent E5052A.

author: tlu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2013, 10:23:09 am
content: Quote from: G0HZU on August 03, 2013, 11:30:39 pmGOHZU, can you explained a bit more on the phase noise and how it affects a measurements? I'm planning on getting an dsa815-tg and want to understand a bit more before making a purchase.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2013, 12:34:35 pm
content: QuoteI didn't remember the exact term Rigol used, so I used the term "screendisplayrate" instead of the probably correct "screenupdaterate". I also incorrectly used the term "Hz" twice instead of "ms" (which was corrected).On my IFR2399A, when I drop the sweep rate below 100ms to 20ms, Iclearlysee the difference on how the trace reacts. I do the same test here and there is no change below 100ms which means to me the displayed sweep capability only goes down to 100ms, not 10ms..QuoteExactly.Bottom line, that was unacceptable to me even at $1500 and surelynotacceptable at $5k for the 1030 which I would of stepped up to.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2013, 07:26:22 pm
content: QuoteHi tluThe significance of the high phase noise on the analyser will only affect users who want to make high dynamic range measurements on fairly narrow spans or people who want to measure carrier noise performance of local oscillators etc..Usually this means professional users who want to do design or strict verification work. eg they may want to look for very small signals that are very close to very large signals and if the phase noise is high it can hide the small signal in the (Rigol increased) noise sidebands of the large signal. But relatively few people need to be concerned about this.So I think Rigol have targeted this analyser at people who will never want to do these types of measurement and so the cost vs phase noise issue isn't a problem.For my (design) needs the phase noise spoils the analyser performance but I accept why the noise is high because the price of the instrument is so remarkably low.I imagine that many users of this analyser will simply accept what noise they see on the display and will assume it comes from the device they are testing. In many cases it doesn't matter either way because many users will probably use the analyser for basic spurious testing on a transmitter or for looking at the RF spectrum via an aerial or for basic filter response tests using the tracking generator.

author: 1design
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 08:29:55 pm
content: While playing around with the DSA1030-TG I have on test I noticed that there seems to be a internal leek of the 10MHz reference signal into the RF chain. The issue was also forwarded to a Rigol representative, now lets see what do they have to say about that. It would not have bothered me that much if it wasn't such a specific and quite often used frequency.Regards.

author: 1design
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2013, 06:09:37 am
content: Could other owners of this instrument check if they notice this signal on their devices so we can determine if this is an isolated case or not? Thank you!EDIT: Rigol support was very quick and today I already received their answer, as it seems the unit is specified to have a DANL of only -85dBm @10MHz, which corresponds to the position of the spur with the attenuator at 0dB and no preamp. So even though the actual noise floor is around -117dBm they prey prefer to state -85dBm instead of fixing the leakage issue