Oscilloscope Dilemma - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: BassClef
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 11:39:50 pm
content: Remember those cartoons where a person has an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, each telling him what do do? That's how I feel right now.I'm a retired IT guy and a long-time ham radio operator. I'm not an EE. I'm thinking seriously about buying an oscilloscope. I don't know if I truly need one, but am sure that I want one. I already have a TEK DVM (DMM850) an analog VOM, a NanoVNA, a RigExpert 54 MHz antenna analyzer, and an RSP1A SDR receiver.The scope would be used for typical ham radio stuff. Checking signal quality, troubleshooting, adjusting and aligning equipment, plus general messing around and learning things. I operate from 3.5 to 144 and 440 MHz, with an emphasis on 3.5 to 28 MHz. I am focusing on digital storage scopes for "hobbyists." I will probably buy new. I've ruled out old analog scopes because I don't have the space, and I don't want to inherit somebody else's problems. I want reliability. I've already read more reviews and watched more YouTube videos than I can process. Models I'm considering are:Siglent SDS1202X-ERigol DS1054ZHantek DS05102PI'm leaning towards the Siglent because it is has 200 MHz bandwidth, and seems to hit the "sweet" spot for price vs. capabilities. The Rigol is the most expensive and probably overkill, as I don't see needing 4 channels. I'm also concerned about possibly needing to "hack" the Rigol to get full capabilities. People here seem to think that Hantek is a cut below the others. But honestly, any of the three could probably do the job.Then I consider the Owon VDS1022i USB scope and I think, "That's a lot less money, and it would probably be adequate for HF." And then I think "Don't cheap out, get what you really want, and you won't have to buy twice."I read "Oscilloscopes for Radio Amateurs," by Paul Danzer. He seems to like USB scopes. In one section titled "Don't Overbuy," he mentions that one can get useful qualitative information for frequencies considerably above a scope's official bandwidth, just not precise quantitative information. He also advises not paying for features you can't use while the scope is being used a scope (such as a signal or function generator capability).Any thoughts? Thanks!--Peter

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 12:00:37 am
content: Hi Peter,QuoteSooner or later you could regret this...if not, you´re lucky man.USB-scopes...Mhhh...I don´t like them, got several ones but to be honest never the "only ones" from picoscope which would blast away your budget.Forget the hantek thing...It leads you to rigol or siglent, last would fit better as you will need more bandwith for your tasks.Or to say it more correctly, it´s the one which reaches your needs at least.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 12:03:47 am
content: I have an older USB scope that I never use anymore because it's a hassle, a standalone instrument is so much easier to use. Both the Rigol and Siglent are good scopes, I've personally used the former. Hacking it is no issue at all, it's pretty much trivial to do. There have been a few times in my life where more than 2 channels was useful although I got by for many years with a 2 channel scope and generally find that to be adequate.

author: Traceless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 12:13:07 am
content: Not sure if that is helping or making things worse but let me throw in another contestant: TheHanmatek DOS1102. Thats a pretty affordable 2-Channel 110MHz 1GSa/s scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 12:19:36 am
content: Given the use, I think the Siglent would be the most appropriate choice. For checking signals, a 2 channel scope will do just fine and the higher bandwidth will be more beneficial than having 4 channels. 4 channels is more appropriate when doing electronics development work where you likely want to see the signals at more than 2 places in the circuit.Not sure about not over-buying though. My advise would be to spend as much money as you can to buy the best tool you can get. It will definitely make whatever you use the equipment for, a more enjoyable experience.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 01:19:57 am
content: The Siglent will happily work up to 144MHz out of the box. The Rigol will need hacking to get there, but from what I've seen that hacking can be done in a few minutes with no tools needed. None of these scopse can be made to work effectively @ 440MHz. You'll need to spend at least 3 times as much to get there.Put the Hantek down, step back and walk away ..Hantek make half decent USB scopes hardware wise. I have a supposedly 70MHz 6074BE that will gladly work out to 250MHz before being 3dB down, but their software is nothing to write home about. The problem is, they have known their software is in dire need of improvement for 12 years and they have done nothing about it. You don't want to get into bed with a partner that responsive. As for their stand-alone scopes? Just no!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 01:23:08 am
content: If you go upscale a bit you may find things that are useful that you wouldn't have imagined were available at a 'hobbyist' price. This is a scope you can buy for $999 right now, the Siglent SDS2104X+ "upgraded" to SDS2354X+ w/ options. It has 500MHz+ actual BW. This is an FM-Stereo modulated 101.5MHz test signal FFT (spectrum display).

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 01:23:52 am
content: QuoteIt´s the 1202X-E, with 200Mhz bandwith...

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 01:28:53 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 04, 2022, 01:23:52 amAhh, did I say something wrong?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 04:40:22 am
content: Quote from: BassClef on December 03, 2022, 11:39:50 pmWelcome to the forum.Beware the rabbit hole you are staring into.QuoteHonestly, there is no substitute for BW for what you have told us, none !QuoteIt seems Paul Danzer is living in another world compared to the functionality of the modern DSO.Really you just can't let these people guide you today as just in the 10 years I've been selling scopes the world is a different place with the technological rise of the Asians offering us features in scopes unobtainable at reasonable prices just a few years ago.Today we engage with customers to suss out how far down the road they intend to go and where is their current level of competency then suggest a best bang for buck fit for today'sandtheir future needs. Oh of course we could instead sell what meets their needs now and hope within long they outgrow it, as one does after acquiring tools do to one specific job.Instead it's wise to set a budget and nut out the features you need now plus any fruits that will serve you in the future.Right now Peter if you've never had a scope I understand you can't list features wished as you don't know what the modern scope can do having never had one. DSO's today are so feature packed they can do far more than display wiggly lines.20 years back when I got my first it was an old CRO that required fixing before it could be used and fixing again several times in the few years I owned it so I vowed never to have such an unreliable scope again that robbed so much of my hobby time rather than let me progress with projects.Don't get anything too cheap or your twilight years will be frustrated by it instead of gaining the enjoyment of watching wiggly lines previously totally invisible to you.Happy hunting.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 05:42:35 am
content: advise a cheap and simple vintage analog CRT scope,Hameg in EU can be found for 5..100€ 10..100 MHz have several in ParisBest scopes are Tektronix 465/475/B, 22xx series and 2465B, 2467B.100..500$Suggest that you join groups.io forums tektronix, Tektronix2 and instruments FS.WTBThe Chinese scopes have many potential pitfalls and a digital scope is not a substitute for the classic analog scope CRTJust the ramblings of an old retired EEJonIn US the ham radio flea market and ads in ARRL, QST, etc

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 11:44:55 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on December 04, 2022, 05:42:35 amDear Jon,Everybody here has enormous respect for you, so nobody has heart to speak up.Analog scopes today are like vintage cars: thing of beauty but of limited practical value.We all love them, and very few use them for actual work. Or if they do sometimes, they still have digital scopes for "all other"stuff CRT scope cannot do..What little are available to purchase had have prices going through the roof ( they are "vintage") and most of them are not working or have been subjected to unqualified repairs and all kinds of abuse.. They are also getting harder and harder to keep running.Fact is than in last 10 years everything changed..For 500$ you can buy brand new scopes (with warranty) that are very good.Digital scope is not only substitute for CRT scope but a many times more powerful instrument that can capture many things CRT cannot and measure many things CRT scope cannot.And in low end scopes (sub 1000$) likes of Rigol and Siglent make better scopes than "non-Chinese" do for 2-3X times the money.. That also changed in last 10ish years..I hope you don't get offended,Respectfully,Sinisa

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 12:39:52 pm
content: Rebonjour Cher 2N3033/ Sinisa !many thanks for the kind notes, I comprend completely and share your reaction.I am open to use any instruments or tools vintage or new, analog or digital.In the big lab since 1970ss, we have Tektronix 7000 and 465, 475, as well as 246x portable.We can only marvel at the fine engineering and long life of these 1980s..1990s machines.I find great enjoyment from the calibration and maintenance of these vintage scopes.For many applications the digital scopes are much better eg single shot capture and image export to a PC.We have Yokogawa DL1740 and DL7440 via close connection to the Japanese.Certainly, beginners with limited acess to ham radio Fleas and silent keys, the latest digital scopes from China are popular.personally, being burned by some Chinese equipment, I am wary of it in general.The old analog scopes are fine for 95% of use and users.....As mentioned, we have found perfectly working 1 or 2 channel 10..20 MHz Hameg German scopes for €5, €25 in Paris at street sales and fleas. Another source is sites like Craigslist in USA or Le Bon Coin or PAP in France.So, my viewpoint is through the lens of an ancient electronic dinasour, (EE 68') and over the decades, I have accumulated a huge laboratoire of classic HP, Tektronix, Fluke, Genrad equipment.Thus, I have no hands on experience with the Chinese digital scopes popular nowadays.Hope that this note is interesting to you and others.....Back to the lab....working on a valve microphone preamplifier 6SL7 ! see pix of SIGSALY Quantizer....Bon Week-endJon

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 02:12:54 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on December 04, 2022, 12:39:52 pmFor many applications DSO are the ONLY solution, i.e. if you have to take measurements, log data, save screens, make automated sequences and so on.Apart that nowaday I cannot see a single reason to put on the table a bulky, heavy, smelly, uncalibrated, power hungry, etc anchor boat, even if it's for free.It's a lot of time that i do not see one in electronic labs and there is a reason for that.Quote from: jonpaul on December 04, 2022, 12:39:52 pmLatest DSOs from China are a lot popular not only among hobbiest but also in industry sector, they disrupted a market that was dominated by Tektronix, a company that was thinking to be able to sell DSOs with few kpts at whopping prices for ever.Now it's a sinking ship.Quote from: jonpaul on December 04, 2022, 12:39:52 pmSure there is a lot of trash in the market, but if you limit your choice to Rigol & Siglent, in the low and the medium segments of the market you obtain much better product price / quality ratio and service (i.e. it happened that Keysight refused to service final users instrumentation).Coming back to the OP, as a Ham in search of a DSO i would invest in a dual channel instrument with at least 2GS/s and bandwidth "upgradable" to 200-300Mhz, there are nice solutions from both Siglent & Rigol.

author: Andy2
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 02:57:20 pm
content: I've only speed-read this thread, so sorry if someone has already made this point. If you are a radio amateur (like me), at some point you will probably use your 'scope to view your outgoing signal. This is a trivial task for an analogue scope, but for DSO's it can be a difficult job and it will start aliasing and you'll not get the familiar 'AM envelope' display. The way around this is to get one with plenty of screen memory (ie it can store lots of 'points'). My Rigol has 14 million points and will show a good AM display on 160m (1.8 MHz) and up to maybe 10 MHz or so, but beyond this it looks worse than my old Tek analogue. So when you are inspecting the manufacturer's boast-sheets, look for the 'Memory Depth' spec and aim high. Hope this helps, it had me befuddled for ages....

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 04:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: Andy2 on December 04, 2022, 02:57:20 pmI am not sure what you are doing wrong, but my DSO has no trouble at all displaying a typical AM signal. Here is a photo of a 29 MHz (10 meters) signal modulated by 1 kHz at 50%:

author: oldjackbob
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 05:20:06 pm
content: Peter,I'm also a ham and have been struggling with the exact same questions as yourself. A week ago I decided to pull the trigger on a Rigol MSO5074 for $799, it came with the free MSO5000-BND software bundle, I did the upgrade hack (super easy hack, I can send you the 3 small files to put on a USB thumbdrive) and now I've got a 350 MHZ 4-channel mixed signal scope with 8Gsa/s sampling rate capable of extremely high waveform resolution.I know that's a bit over your stated budget but my motto is "buy once, cry once".Mark

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 05:30:12 pm
content: I would say that now we have the proof that third millennium sub grand DSOs are able to provide a fancy view of typical HAM signalsJokes aside, as I was saying a modern medium segment 2GS/s 200MHz BW from Rigol / Siglent fits the puporse, if you look to David's Youtube DSO review you can also spot models that have nicer analog persistence emulation with AM modulated signals.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 07:29:29 pm
content: It's worth remembering that these low cost hobbyist oriented scopes tend to hold their value pretty well, if you take good care of it you should be able to sell it for a substantial fraction of what you paid for it should you decide that it no longer meets your needs, at least that's true of the more reputable brands like Rigol and Siglent. Don't be too paralyzed by indecision, any scope is better than no scope.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 07:35:34 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on December 04, 2022, 05:42:35 amI have a Tek 465B that I've had for many years, it's a great instrument and I have no plans to part with it, but frankly I rarely ever use it anymore since I have a newer DSO. The CRO is as someone else mentioned, a lot like a classic car. It spends most of its time in storage but I pull it out now and then for some nostalgia or when I have a specific need such as XY mode that it does better than any DSO. These days I only recommend analog scopes to beginners if it's very cheap and the only scope they can afford. Even the newest analog scopes one is likely to find now are decades old.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 07:58:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 04, 2022, 07:35:34 pmIMHO one of the $50 pocket scopes from Aliexpress is a better buy compared to any analog scope unless you are desperate for bandwidth. My first oscilloscope was a 20MHz one which costed US$900 in today's money. Even one of the $50 pocket scopes runs circles around it. Most annoying to me was the inability to visualise low frequency signals.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 09:29:55 pm
content: Quote from: markone on December 04, 2022, 02:12:54 pmTektronix was dominating the market when analog scopes were cutting edge. HP/Agilent/Keysight and Lecroy started eating their lunch with much more advanced digital scopes in the nineties, long before Rigol scopes become known in the west.Now Tektronix appears to be catching up, and their latest models are getting decent reviews. Obviously they are not aiming to compete in the sub-$1000 price bracket. So I'd argue reports of their demise are greatly exaggerated.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 09:55:44 pm
content: QuoteLike all other "Global Players", because they simply don´t need it.And yes, the last 10yrs were a technical revolution for hobbyists to get cheap but usable DSOs.But there are still differences between "cheap" and the rest, there are features for example our very old lecroys got, new scopes won´t have.Until you pay for them as much as the old lecroy had cost 25yrs ago.And the enthusiasm goes so far that people complain when a scope for 400 euros can't do everything that a scope for 20 times the price can, which I find sometimes very funny to read..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2022, 10:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: alm on December 04, 2022, 09:29:55 pmNot quite true. Tektronix' TDS210 / TDS220 where real game changers that put 1Gs/s realtime sampling scopes on the desk of electronics engineers as a true replacement of analog oscilloscopes. And designed to a low price point as well. The whole board is like the size of 2 credit cards. I have not seen any of the low cost Chinese brands achieve such high levels of integration.QuoteAgreed. Tektronix still knows how to make good oscilloscopes. And they are not the only ones who have been milking old architectures.

author: JOFlaherty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 12:58:36 am
content: With a modern digital scope, you get an accurate frequency counter and time interval meter built in, and on-screen display of time and voltage values without having to count divisions on the screen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 01:12:54 am
content: Quote from: JOFlaherty on December 05, 2022, 12:58:36 amAnd FFT to see the signal in the frequency domain - very useful for radio work.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 01:47:24 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 04, 2022, 10:22:00 pmGame Boy, this is the name that we gave to those scopes in the lab at the time, the awfullest screen ever seen in my whole lifeQuote from: nctnico on December 04, 2022, 10:22:00 pmFor the simple fact that it was over engineering, two credit cards inside a much bigger case, no need to make use of aerospace tech for a bench scope.China world is still in learning phase, i.e. Rigol has already developed several Asics, i would expect Siglent to do the same soon or later and i can see lot of chip designer / maker take life in the far east, not to mention the "queue" outside the TSMC door ...My Lab is almost equipped with instrumentation from Rigol (DS1054Z and soon HDO1074), Siglent (SDG2042X & SSA3021X), GW Instek (GDS-2072E), if you ask me would say thanks God, China came in this sector otherwise things would have been a lot different, with some rusty & smelly anchor boat on the desk.Quote from: nctnico on December 04, 2022, 10:22:00 pmThey are still milking, it's enough to see how many active 8bit DSO they do have (shamlessy) in catalog with 20kpts @ over 1K USD/EURO.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 02:06:03 am
content: I have an old Tektronix 485 (350 MHz) dual channel scope and it works well. You can sometimes find them on eBay for a couple of hundred bucks. I did...OTOH, even though it has a lot more BW than my unlocked Rigol DS1054Z, it is retired. There is simply nothing about an old analog that can compete with a DSO. Measurements, decoding, triggering, FFT (in some cases), Bode' Diagrams (in some cases) and so on.I bought the Rigol because the Siglent wasn't available. Today I would buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E, unlock it to 200 MHz and call it a day. I need 4 channels more than I need BW.Really, you're into analysis paralysis and it can last forever so I'll give you a hint:Buy the Siglent SDS1202X-E for $399 and call it even. You will be happy you did!https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/That's a heck of a price for a very nice scope. Download the User Manual and see what you will get!Skip the X-U series, they have been designed down to a price point.That said, I don't know how you plan to see much of a 400 MHz signal on a 200 MHz scope but I suppose something will show up on the screen. I don't dabble in RF so I have no idea how it will turn out.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 02:09:34 am
content: Quote from: markone on December 05, 2022, 01:47:24 amNot really. There where quite a number of people (including me) and companies working on low cost oscilloscopes before the Chinese came in and undercut those people / companies. Either way we would have had lower cost test equipment without the Chinese. Take the Welec W2000A as an example (that never got finished).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 02:29:53 am
content: Quotefor the price its still a very capable scope,for some of us the budget is very limited.Quotemy old analogue scope displayed x/y artwork much better than my new digital one

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 02:33:01 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 05, 2022, 02:06:03 amFYI, these are on special until years end:https://siglentna.com/product/sds1202x-e/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 03:06:10 am
content: Quote from: JOFlaherty on December 05, 2022, 12:58:36 amThere are analog scopes that offer that too, although they are less common.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 06:10:09 am
content: I don't know if SDS2202X-E is on sale anywhere, but that one goes to 350 Mhz (more in reality) and would show 432 MHz without problem...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 06:26:06 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on December 05, 2022, 06:10:09 amI did some screenshots for a thread here a while back with SDS2202X-E and pushed to well beyond 400 MHz which is getting close to it aliasing but its frequency counter went a few 100 MHz further if the amplitude was sufficient on the display despite it being well past rated BW......missing my SSG3021X, now sold.Edit to add.Thread link where we tested the BW of a few DSO's and SDS2202X-E here.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dso-bandwidth-test-sds1104x-e-dsox1102g-to1104-gds1054b/msg2391324/#msg2391324Aliasing was not obvious to me however rf-loop put me straight.

author: Andy2
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 08:48:27 am
content: Quote from: baldurn on December 04, 2022, 04:43:13 pmThat's interesting, Baldurn. How many points is the trace memory? As I said, things improve with more memory. My Rigol has 14 M points, which was a decent amount when I bought it, but these days scopes tend to have a lot more.

author: BassClef
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 10:46:40 am
content: Big thanks to all who chimed in. The "analysis paralysis" didn't last long. I was strongly leaning towards the Siglent SDS 1202X-E. You folks gave me the nudge over the cliff... er, edge. I pulled the (pardon the pun) trigger this evening.432 MHz wasn't really a priority, as all I do there is local FM or DMR stuff. My main thing is HF. Followed by using the scope as a tool to fix a few things as the need arises, and learn more about what's going on in those wires. Back when I was a kid, I was aligning and adjusting radios with nothing more than a VOM and a 100 kHz crystal calibrator. So this is going to feel like the electronic equivalent of a luxury hotel.--Peter

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 12:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: markone on December 05, 2022, 01:47:24 amMore likely they keep these for customers replacing / extending their existing equipment in places where it is too expensive to rewrite manuals / modify automated test setups / train people.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 01:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: Andy2 on December 05, 2022, 08:48:27 amThat was actually on the picture, but unfortunately too blurry to read. The scope is an Siglent SDS 2304X which is an older version of the scope the original poster is considering. The scope has memory for 140 Mpts but is only using 14 Mpts at 2 GS/s in the picture.However, someone please correct me if I am wrong, I do believe it is actually the sample rate at viewed timebase that is important here. Because we want to see a 1 kHz amplitude overlay waveform, we need the timebase to be in the range of 1 ms per division. I had 0.5 ms per division in the picture. At the same time we need to capture the RF signal at 29 MHz which means at least 58 MS/s. My scope has 14 divisions and so would need 14 ms of data at 58 MS/s. That calculates to a little less than 1 Mpts.The scope is doing much more than 1 Mpts and 58 MS/s which just means it has data so I can zoom or I could go much higher up in frequency without trouble.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 07:19:11 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 05, 2022, 02:29:53 amThen make a spreadsheet of features on both series -E and -U. Then compare what you can't do with the -U now or forever into the future and see if the savings are worthwhile.When you can get a nice 2 channel 200 MHz scope with an abundance of features for $399, it's pretty hard to complain about the price. SDS1202X-E - Remember, we got along with 2 channel scopes for a very long time.The SDS1104X-U matches the price at $399; you give up 200 MHz for 100 MHz but gain 2 more channels.It would cost another $100 over the -U to get the SDS1104X-E which is only 100 MHz but can be unlocked to 200 MHz (details elsewhere, check them out, don't rely on my memory). This is the way I would go but that's just me. I want 4 channels above everything else. 200 MHz would be nice but I still have that old 350 MHz Tek 485 for the higher BW requirements.It gets to be a bit confusing...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 07:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 05, 2022, 07:19:11 pmUntil you have this image as attached, prepared by rf-loop.Still there are some differences in capability and features between SDS1202X-E, SDS11/1204X-E and SDS1104X-U but it's all in their datasheets and if not in user manuals.4ch X-E's are the premium range in these 3 and to get close the 2ch 2 GSa SDS2000X-E range shares some features with the 4ch X-E's but also has 1M/50 Ohm inputs none of these 1000 series models have.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 08:34:33 pm
content: Quoteno need,think its on siglents own website, theres a comparison tableQuotehorses for courses,i dont have much use for 100Mhz,let alone 200,4 channels is much more use for the sort of stuff i tinker withQuoteAbout £70 difference in the uk,So are you going to give me the extra £70? or do i put off buying for another 6 months until i can afford one,meanwhile the money has slowly been nibbled at and/or the prices have gone up

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 08:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 05, 2022, 08:34:33 pmIf it's this one it's next to useless:https://siglentna.com/application-note/differences_xe_vs_xu/The one I posted done by rf-loop is what it instead should be with the additional features added into 4ch X-E's recently.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 10:42:57 pm
content: I use an Agilent 54820 scope that has the HD upgraded. 2 Gs/Sec and 500 MHz Bandwith. I think this would be categorized as an "older" DSO.I bought the Agilent because there was a bit of confusion about the newer Rigol etc... scopes quality a few years back. Reading now about scopes, it seems that the Sigilent Scopes are really good and probably better than my Agilent.It took me a while to learn to use this digital scope. Bought it used for $ 400. It is physically much larger than the new scopes. I think it is a keeper.My only real disappointment is that it appears to get confused and requires that I use the autoscope feature to get a trace sometimes. Mostly happens at low KHz audio freq.It would also be nice to have an input for an external freq standard. I am of the current opinion that scopes in general do not have a really good internal freq standard. Maybe I am wrong. I cannot find a way to "calibrate" the internal 100 MHz freq standard, if someone knows, let me know.It is a little difficult to learn the features, it takes time. Things like X vs Y take a few steps to set up. But any computer thing with features is a bit more complicated to set up for these features.I still cannot use it to get a decent trace for a transistor curve tracer, which is a snap with my analog scopes.The FFT is OK but I use a spectrum analyzer for my measurements, so I really don't know how to use it to it's full potential.I think that spectrum analyzers in general are better than most scopes with FFT, again I could be wrong about modern scopes. Bdunham's trace looks very nice. Maybe I should poke around a little and see what I can get on the screen.My backup CRT scope is an HP 1980, 100 MHz, cost $ 18,000 with freq counter in 1985. (bought it used and broken, now works fine)It has digital storage for waveforms that is very crude compared to modern DSO. also has autoscope function. And measures rise time and other stuff.By the way I also have a Tek 475, 200 MHz scope that I can part with, if anyone is interested.If anyone buys a used scope, please make sure you get the proper probes for the particular scope.Since using the Agilent, I find it hard to use anything without readouts on the screen and the color screen makes a world of difference. Old CRT scope readouts are not as easy to see at a glance.The big color screens are a blessing for us who have old eyes. Also gotta love the magenta!The video output is nice for using a larger computer monitor also.It took a while but now I find it hard to go back to CRT scopes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 11:23:50 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on December 05, 2022, 10:42:57 pmWhy? High-Z Oscilloscope probes are pretty much standard and basically a dime-a-dozen. The only thing to watch out for is whether the capacitance adjustment range covers the specified capacitance of the oscilloscope input. Beyond -say- 100MHz feeding a signal directly into an oscilloscope using a 50 Ohm coax is a good idea if you want to have something on screen that resembles the actual signal.When I buy a used scope, the High-Z probes that come with it go into the bin unless they are new in a sealed package. Nobody gives away perfect probes with a used scope. IMHO used probes are like used underwear. Really special, expensive probes are a different thing though but these are usually well cared for and nobody has driven an office chair over the cable or let the dog chew them up.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 11:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 05, 2022, 11:23:50 pmIt's hardly like used underwear, nobody has had them in their private bits, hopefully. I have a few very old probes that still work fine, if they're damaged or defective I'll replace them. Most of the scopes I've owned are Tek though and rely on the coding pin to display the correct order of magnitude, most aftermarket probes lack that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 11:44:07 pm
content: I have been 'bitten' by probes that had contact issues and bad cables. YMMV but in general a bunch of known good Testec probes are cheap enough not to take a gamble. Personally I don't care much about the probe ID pin. In some cases I use direct cable connections anyway and have to setup the attenuation manually which is easy to do on the oscilloscopes I have.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 11:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 05, 2022, 11:23:50 pmThat depends on the output impedance of the node you are testing over frequency. Not every circuit will be happy with a 50 or 500 Ohm load at DC. 10 MOhm at DC going down to say 160 Ohm at 100 MHz might be better than a constant 50 Ohm. Of course active probes perform even better, but at a price.I would say that in addition the physical form factor, and accessories to hook it up to things like grabbers, are a major factor. I don't think the old 5mm probe tip size with an alligator clip for ground works very well on SMT boards unless you have test points for all the nodes you want to measure. I quite like narrow spring-loaded tips like the Lecroy PP005 probes. Are those available on the cheap Ali-special dime-a-dozen probes yet?Quote from: nctnico on December 05, 2022, 11:23:50 pmI worry about what you do with your probes. I have bought quite a few used probes over the years, including maybe two dozen common 1x and 10x probes, and all but two have worked well. One was a cheapy with a dodgy switch, and the other had a bad cable. Used active probes are a different story, though.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 11:58:42 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 05, 2022, 08:34:33 pmAlas, I live on a pitiful fixed income...Here's the thing, nobody around here is going to recommend a scope they wouldn't want to use. There is always something cheaper but likely isn't as exhaustively reviewed simply because no serious user would consider buying it.Any of the 3 Siglents will do the job and they have been reviewed extensively right here on EEVblog. Just use the search feature. The Rigol is also a very nice scope (after unlocking) but it's getting old. The Siglents are the new shiny things.If you want to do a more thorough reading, tryhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/starting around Reply 150 where Charlotte buys the SDS1202X-E and we get serious about working through the User Manual. Late in the thread it gets very interesting. The first 149 replies are just a prelude but could be worth reading as they are more like this thread, comparing features and price.Many of the same concerns are discussed in great detail.If price is the primary concern, above all else, drive a stake in the ground and state what it is. Call it an absolute max, no waffling "well, if I can get better for a little bit more...", nope, it's the MAX price. You can always get more features "for a little bit more...". You may not get as many replies if the amount precludes worthwhile scopes but that's the way it goes.Again, we're not likely to recommend something we wouldn't want to use ourselves.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2022, 12:03:59 am
content: Quote from: alm on December 05, 2022, 11:49:56 pmSome manufacturers recognise this and offer relatively cheap products to make our lives easier:http://www.pintek.com.tw/customer/pintek/product/CP-3501R-PRO-b.jpgAt the end of the day it comes down to the Ahole that designs/lays out a PCB to give us the required test points to undertake rework/repair. However this additional effort/cost needs be balanced against providing replacement boards at reasonable cost. Flip the coin.