Is "Windows S" The New Ultimate Fail From Microsoft? (Think Windows RT) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 07:53:02 am
content: "it can only run apps from the Windows Store"Yeaah, because I just can't think of a single piece of software I would like to run on a $2200 laptop that I can't find at the Windows Store.Microsoft is a bottomless pit of bad ideas of how to totally cripple the most widely deployed OS in history. Just like Windows RT, this idea throws out the single basic reason to run Windows, which is the existing library of software.Complete stupidity.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 09:32:57 am
content: "If you build it they will come"

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 10:19:47 am
content: Quote from: JoeN on May 03, 2017, 07:53:02 amyou are not the target customer, for schools, libraries it could make sense to have an OS that is hardwired with those kinds limitations

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 10:26:19 am
content: What is Microsoft's track record when it comes to executing these ass-backwards ideas? Someone at Microsoft must be a true masochist who likes to see project fails. IMHO the biggest problem is that Microsoft sees a movement in the market then tries to re-invent it in their small world way and in the process totally missing the point why people buy the other product.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 10:49:34 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 03, 2017, 10:15:57 amI am quoting from the 2017 Edition 'Ignorant Consumers Digest'

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 11:53:23 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on May 03, 2017, 10:19:47 amThey already shot themselves in the foot for that with system center configuration manager. Central IT admin can push software as required, users can install optional software as required. I.e. School computer. Teacher needs mathmatica or the like, they go into the catalog, push go, and it installs in the background by an admin privileged process.Let alone 3rd party applications for just this sort of thing.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 11:58:49 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2017, 10:26:19 amThat exact business model seems to be doing OK for the fruit people from Cupertino. They are the richest company on the planet and have millions ofsheepcustomers.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 01:40:55 pm
content: Clearly no one here actually read the whole thing, just stopped at the "apps from the Windows Store" and rushed to judge.This comes on the new Surface Laptop. Which despite the ridiculously low base model 4GB RAM, is still priced competitive with other ultra slim form factor laptops, even when you bump up to a more useful model. The limits of Windows S are few - it runs full Office and plenty of other desktop apps, but better sandboxed than in full Windows 10. For a huge number of users, it's more than adequate. It's not just wannabe iOS and Android apps. The daily worker can get anything they need - web browsing, word processing, spreadsheets, email, collaboration, and more.And the part everyone skipped - you can upgrade it for free to Windows 10 Pro. If Windows S really turns out to be a limitation (and again - for a productivity worker no, for a gamer, or a developer, or a graphic artists, well, no kidding), you can turn it in to full blown Windows 10. In that light, the 4GB RAM model is actually probably FINE if you stick with Windows S.Many of us here are FAR from the typical computer user. The average person isn't doing video encodes, running EDA packages, doing circuit simulation, or playing complex hi-res games. If your job is tying up letter an reports, filling in forms online and in spreadsheets, and emailing people, you don;t need any more than this. Full Windows is a liability, a limited sandboxed version is EXACTLY what is needed. This reduced Windows is not nearly as crippled as previous attempts. The apps are no longer limited to what was once called Metro - full applications like Office and Adobe Premier are available in this form. And you can always just crank it u to the Pro version if you just have to. It's not targeted to many, if any, of us. Though it probably can, without going to full Windows 10 Pro, do about 75% of what I do on my work laptop.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 02:12:16 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 03, 2017, 10:15:57 amWhile if he's quoting Waynes World II, it's spot on

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 02:16:16 pm
content: For 50$ extra, you get the full OS on the same laptop. Or have an upgrade button on the one which you bought.

author: Codebird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 02:49:45 pm
content: Microsoft have a fundamental conflict.One one hand, they want in on the very cost-sensitive educational market. Chromebooks just exploded onto that scene - from novelty to to serious player before Microsoft realised. Education is vital, because it determines what users five years ahead are going to be buying for themselves and asking of their employers. To achieve this Microsoft needs to offer their product and services cheap.On the other hand, Microsoft know that if they offer a good, low-cost Windows to compete with chromebooks, they will cut into their own sales of higher-margin windows versions. They know what segmentation is, and they like it.The solution is to adapt the classic: Crippled editions. Lower-cost Windows versions with just enough features disabled to make sure that those who have deeper pockets can't substitute it for a higher-priced tier. Just like Windows Home is unable to join a domain in order to render it useless in the workplace, and Windows Home and Pro both have limits on the number of incoming CIFS sessions to prevent them from being used as fileservers. Windows S limits the applications to make sure it's of no use outside of the target: Students in schools.The big test of MS now is if they can make sure the market has enough educational software to make S useful. If I were a Microsoft executive, I'd be researching providers of well-respected educational software to buy out so I could force them to publish on the Windows store.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 02:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: Codebird on May 03, 2017, 02:49:45 pmI've never ever heard about anyone who seen anyone use a chromebook. Is it really a thing now?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:07:37 pm
content: MS has such a big market share they can get away with stupidities like this. Just look at how horrible windows 8.x is, and 10 has lot of stupidities too like the forced updates/reboots and lack of customizability. Yet most people just take it up the ass since they don't see any other options.MS could really do good if they actually had better ideas and execution but they seem to have a "our way or the highway" approach these days and don't actually care about the user.

author: ynfo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:40:03 pm
content: I remember talking to a Microsoft salesman when RT first came out. He boasted they had a $1 billion marketing budget. I asked him was it really that bad!Turns out it was

author: darrellg
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:07:57 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 03, 2017, 02:57:40 pmChromebooks are huge in schools. The collaborative editing features of Google Docs are tightly integrated into the curriculum in my daughter's school and they have hundreds of Chromebooks. They are much cheaper and easier to manage than a full PC. It's not just the hardware that is cheaper either... Office licenses are expensive. Using the Google alternative is free.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 03, 2017, 02:57:40 pmChromebook is thriving, especially in developing country.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 06:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2017, 10:26:19 amI don't believe you when they are releasing a laptop that starts at $1000 and runs this. They are targeting the higher end, at least with that laptop.https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/2/15507450/microsoft-surface-laptop-announced-price-specs-release-dateQuote from: NANDBlog on May 03, 2017, 02:16:16 pmI read three or four articles and none mentioned this. So, I blame the writers. But, if so, this would be an option I would choose if I bought this laptop. But, if people are choosing this option, then Windows S, by definition, is a failure for the consumer, maybe it is a success for Microsoft since they will get paid. My feeling is that not too many people will be buying laptops with Windows S on it, though, just like not too many people bought devices with Windows RT on it.Quote from: rrinker on May 03, 2017, 01:40:55 pmYeah, but there are still countless people out there that would want to load Office 2010 or an old game they already own onto their shiny new laptop.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 06:24:41 pm
content: Same old story, same old Microsoft. They've been doing this kind of thing since they tried to "dominate" the internet back in the 90s, and they've done it over and over and over again ever since. I doubt the results will be much different this time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 06:50:19 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on May 03, 2017, 10:19:47 amIn which case why run Windows? MS doesn't seem to realize that the only reason Windows is dominant is the massive library of "legacy" software. If it doesn't run the software, there's no reason to run Windows at all. What does it offer over Android? Linux? Chrome OS? iOS? The Windows app store is a joke.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 10:41:20 pm
content: Quote from: JoeN on May 03, 2017, 06:10:46 pmOr an open source application...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 11:20:51 pm
content: Android and iOS are established, they dominate the market the same way Windows dominates the traditional PC market. No competing platform has gained significant traction since DOS/Windows became dominant, MacOS has long been a strong second but even they have trailed by a very substantial margin. Linux has a strong back end presence and is making gains but it's still a small player on the desktop. IMO there is no room in the current market for another mobile platform unless it can offer something really revolutionary and I just don't see that happening. Blackberry was quite good and even offered some unique features but they're essentially gone, there was no room for them between Google and Apple. Microsoft is in the same boat, their mobile platforms have failed time after time to gain traction, Windows Phone is all but dead, even most of the Microsoft employees I know have jumped ship and gone to iOS or Android. The ship has sailed before MS even arrived at the dock, they came into mobile 10 years too late.I really cannot see anyone paying $1k for a crippled machine that cannot run any existing software without spending an extra 50 bucks for the full OS. It just seems like a no brainer, just 50 bucks and you get the fully featured Windows, who wouldn't spring for that if they were buying something like this? If that is correct then Windows S has no reason to exist.

author: Codebird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 07:56:42 am
content: QuoteActive Directory - unless they are stupid enough to decide that S, like Home, is not worthy. That'll be a real deal-breaker.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 06:18:27 pm
content: But still I fail to see why anyone would want such a completely gimped version of Windows. The massive "legacy" software library is a HUGE reason to run Windows, it is absolutely the reason Windows continues to dominate the market despite Microsoft seemingly doing everything they can to destroy it. Given the choice between a gimped version that can only run store apps (which let's face it, are underwhelming to say the least) and a version that costs slightly more but can run all that stuff *and* the full library of legacy x86 software, who outside a very small niche is going to go with the crippled S version? The Windows phones were actually quite nice from a hardware and usability standpoint but the app selection has always had some glaring gaps and that's why most of the guys I knew who had them eventually abandoned the platform. At this point they have the classic chicken & egg problem where app developers have little reason to develop apps for the MS platform since nobody uses them, and nobody uses them because there aren't very many useful apps. I just don't see how they can ever catch up unless Google and Apple both make a long series of HUGE screwups.I'm not really a huge fan of either Google or Apple, but I'm not seeing anything that makes Microsoft look any more compelling. Instead they seem to make one bad choice after another, and when they finally do come up with something pretty good you can just about bet they'll abandon it. Anyone remember PlaysForSure? Zune? Their series of broadband routers back in the day?

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 07:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 05, 2017, 06:18:27 pmMicrosoft's last really good ideas were bringing a modern OS (NT) to the mass market desktop (XP) and the Xbox. That was 2001.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 10:10:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 05, 2017, 06:18:27 pmWhat if I had to support a thousand ESUs (Extremely Stupid Users) and I didn't want them to be capable of loading ANYTHING not already in a known store with known issues. They don't need Autocad, LTSpice, wxMaxima, Matlab. All they need to do is respond to emails and write a few memos.Google Chrome is a lot like this.I can see schools and libraries wanting this configuration. No, the adult end user probably doesn't need to use the S version but there are certainly areas where it will provide a clear benefit.I can actually see a future for something like Linux on a very fast USB stick. Live CDs suck but maybe USB 3.0 would work a lot better. You get a virus, you just reload the thumb drive. Want to keep the kids away from your stuff? Give them their own thumb drive.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2017, 01:58:11 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on May 03, 2017, 01:40:55 pmBetter locked down than normal user managed Windows 10, by only allowing you to install sandboxed apps (and special exceptions certified by Microsoft).Quote from: rstofer on May 06, 2017, 10:10:56 pmI don't see why you trust the store that much, the certification process is almost always lackluster. Android and even iOS stores come with lots of sensitive information leaking software. AFAICS there is nothing you can do with Windows S which you can't do with a centrally managed enterprise/education version of windows, but vice versa certainly isn't true and you can actually lock it down more.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 01:13:12 pm
content: Nobody here has discussed (in earnest)whyMicrosoft would do this. And their primary explanationmakes sense: it's to increase battery life and maintain performance."Full" Windows has tons and tons of legacy APIs that were written without energy efficiency in mind, and which haven't scaled well into the modern era. Highly power-optimized APIs can extend battery runtime massively (compare using Firefox or Chrome vs. Safari or Edge on Mac and Windows, respectively). Microsoft has been trying desperately to wean application developers away from the legacy APIs to the modern replacements, with only very limited success, and this is just another attempt to push things in that direction.For me, this isn't a new concept: it's exactly what Apple did in the Classic Mac OS -> Mac OS X transition, and then again when they forked iOS from Mac OS X. And it worked. Look at how much smoother iOS works than macOS, and in particular how much lower its resource requirements are compared to macOS to do the same things.Unlike Apple, Microsoft knows there are thousands of businesses out there using custom-built Windows applications for line of business, written to old APIs, and often unmaintainable because the application source code is either lost, or undocumented to the point of uselessness. So MS maintains even ancient APIs to keep that old stuff running. But there's no reason mainstream consumer applications shouldn't be maintained to current APIs. That model has worked well for Apple, and there's no reason it won't work for MS. (Mac software devs had to rejigger their programs from Classic Mac OS to run on Mac OS X. Almost all major apps got updated, and most were later more comprehensively rewritten to the better APIs later on.*) So by having in essence a "modern-only" Windows, with the option to add the legacy stuff back in (at the express risk of reduced battery runtime and performance) encourages developers to update their apps to modern APIs, while still giving those who absolutely must run legacy apps can choose to do so.* In the Classic Mac OS to Mac OS X transition, Apple took the Classic Mac APIs, altered them minimally to make them work better on the UNIX kernel of Mac OS X, and called this "Carbon". They then released runtime libraries for Carbon for both Classic Mac OS and Mac OS X. Meanwhile, Mac OS X's "native" APIs, including all the ones inherited from NextStep, are called "Cocoa". When it was time to move Mac OS X to 64-bit, Apple updated both the Carbon and Cocoa runtime libraries to 64-bit, and developer previews of 64-bit Mac OS X included both. And then at the very last minute, Apple pulled 64-bit Carbon.It was already written and tested.They decided that to get developers to move to the generally far superior Cocoa APIs, it became "the future is 64-bit, and 64-bit means you move to Cocoa". Some developers had already updated their Carbon apps to 64-bit Carbon. Including Apple itself, which was delayed in updating many of its pro apps to 64-bit by about 2 years by this. And Adobe, which took a leisurely 4 years or something to update Creative Suite. Yeah, it seemed like an asshole move, but it meant that the old-fashioned Carbon API finally stopped being used by developers. The result is that applications are more stable than ones written to Carbon, and they perform better.In forking iOS, Apple rewrote optimized versions of the Cocoa APIs with vastly reduced resource requirements, supported by dedicated hardware acceleration of those APIs. Most of these optimized APIs have since been back-ported to OS X, and are responsible for modern MacBooks' spectacular battery life under macOS. Run Windows or Linux instead and the battery life plummets.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 05:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 06, 2017, 10:10:56 pmThat sounds like exactly the sort of niche for which I'd consider suggesting a $200 Chromebook, which happens to be an already dominant player in just that sort of application. For those who want something a little classier and don't mind paying an inflated price, the ipad pro is an option. Neither is my cup of tea but they're good for the sort of use case you propose."Windows" has a very specific meaning to most people. If you want to run all the software out there that is Windows-only then you run Windows. Only this version of "Windows" doesn't actually run any of that software. It's WinRT all over again. We all know how well that worked out.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 05:12:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 08, 2017, 01:13:12 pmThen they're doing it in a completely idiotic manner. My Lenovo X250 runs a good 10-12 hours on a charge, real world, depending on what I'm doing and how bright I have the screen. It does that running a full version of Win7 Pro, and with a core i7 it's very snappy and it's only slightly more bulky than this thing. I hear the battery life argument a lot but I'm just not seeing the advantage. Just give me a bigger battery rather than stripping down and crippling the user experience. I don't care if the laptop is 3mm thicker, it just doesn't matter to me, I don't think it matters to most people.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 05:54:23 pm
content: It's little more than Microsoft seeing what they perceive as an opportunity they are missing and doing their usual "johnny come lately" and "jump on the bandwagon" act. It rarely succeeds, and in many cases their eventual solution is simply buying the competition. That's probably not going to work here.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 09:33:53 pm
content: K-2 students are more comfortable with iPads.However at 3rd grade and above it is chromebooks.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 09:54:15 pm
content: Sounds reasonable.So what I want to know is what does Microsoft bring to the table? What is the selling point of a $1k device running a crippled version of "Windows" that can't run Windows software over a cheaper Chromebook or iPad?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 10:46:21 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 08, 2017, 09:54:15 pmLiterally...NOTHING. This basically is an expensive pile of crap that should have a sticker that says "YOU ARE NOT SAFE!". The Windows store is not foolproof, you can still get infected from it if something gets past the store virus scan. There are also still scam apps, memory hungry apps, and even filthy apps on there (including hentai and "Penis Size"). So yeah, all they are doing is a band-aid marketing scam solution and calling it "safety". Trust me, don't underestimate smart school children, they will still wreck the software on these things.In fact, someone please do that. Destroy a Windows 10 S device with nothing but the store and upload it to Youtube. I love how stupid people on other forums are like "no, it's restricted, you can't get a virus". 100%While it is rare, it is still entirely possible to get infected.

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 04:57:05 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on May 08, 2017, 10:46:21 pmtell me more about these "filthy" apps... :lol: