First time gear - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 am
content: I would like to know; what are the best, most reliable, and functional of the following tools for these prices?Oscilloscope for under $300Multimeter for under $150Function generator for under $150Soldering iron for under $150...This is my first time buying equipment, I am just beginning in electronics/electricity.+ Is it miss-guided of me to think that a function generator merged with a power supply is a good idea?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 03:44:07 am
content: Quote from: testtube44 on September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 amRedistribute the money from overpriced mult-meter and underpriced function generator and get Rigol DS1054Z.Quote from: testtube44 on September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 amSome cheap Uni-T or even Harbor freight special will do. They are perfectly fine for beginner use.I use UNI-T UT136B ($16) in my day to day life, and very rarely I see the need for higher-end meter. In the beginner situation, it will be more than enough. They are nice and compact and do everything multimeter should do.Quote from: testtube44 on September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 amYou either need a lot more money, or get one of those $80 eBay cheapies. They have decent parameters, but horrific UI. This is something you will have to deal with, if you don't want to pay $300.Quote from: testtube44 on September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 amHakko fx-888d.Quote from: testtube44 on September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 amCan you even find a thing like that? It is probably a bad idea, since devices have substantially different functions.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 03:55:48 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 12, 2017, 03:44:07 amIt has to be stressed that cheap multimeters only suffice for low voltage work. Imaginary CAT ratings might not cause issues, but may very well.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 03:58:40 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 12, 2017, 03:55:48 amThat is true. But if you are a beginner and trying to work with high voltages without full understanding of what you are doing - Darwin Award awaits.And those Uni-T meters are reasonably build, so that I personally would trust them 100% for household use. Not so much for HF ones.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 04:01:16 am
content: Welcome to the forum.There's lots of options but with the budget you've indicated let's try and suggest the best value of $.DMM, it's hard to beat Dave's if you want something certified and safe:https://www.eevblog.com/product/bm235-multimeter/DSO, I've sold a lot of SDS1102CML+, yes it's just over your indicated spend @ 319 but you might find one on Amazon a wee bit cheaper. Memory depth @ 2 Mpts is considered the minimum you'd want.http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=27&T=2&tid=1FG/AWG, you won't get anything other than very basic for less than 150, ideally 2 channels are best but I think we all started with a single channel unit. WRT PSU/FG combo, the Siglent AWG's allow for LV DC output at small currents that can supply projects, short circuit protected too.http://www.siglentamerica.com/pd.aspx?tid=16&T=1Soldering Iron, it won't be long until you dabble in SMD so I'd suggest a cheap rework station with hot air too.Handy for all manner of things beside SMD. One that takes the cheap 900M Hakko tips are widely considered good value.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 05:07:11 pm
content: I agree with others here about the multimeter, spending $150 is entirely unnecessary for a first meter. Two inexpensive meters will serve you much better overall, and save budget for something else. There will be times when you need to monitor two voltages, or a voltage and a current, and will need two meters. Comparing the readings on 2+ meters is a good sanity check; if they agree, chances are it's because both are still working, as opposed to both simultaneously failing or drifting the exact same way. The second one doesn't need to be as good as the first, just good enough for a simple second measurement. Just don't use cheap meters on high energy circuits. There's a big thread on the AN8008 on the front page. Two of those might be a good start, with a third better meter in the future when you find a need for it.If you can combine the scope and function gen budget, and stretch it a bit, then you can get a decent 4 channel scope with plenty of bandwidth and a built in 2 channel 25 MHz function and arbitrary waveform generator for $660 (Rigol DS-1074Z-S), probably less with the EEVBlog discount at Tequipment. You won't find separate new comparable instruments for that money. The capabilities are probably beyond what you think you need right now, but you might be surprised how fast you grow into them, or how fast you'll outgrow marginally adequate instruments.For soldering, there are plenty of combined soldering and hot air stations that can get you started. Most use a knock-off of a Hakko style soldering iron, and will accept real Hakko tips when you realize that the knock off tips are junk, and want to upgrade the performance of the iron.I have no specific model in mind.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 05:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: testtube44 on September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 amAs a beginner you should start with low voltages only (i.e <=30V). That enables you to use very cheap multimeters that don't have the safety features they claim.The minimum necessary tools are a very cheap multimeter, a few switches, a few LEDs, a couple of potentiometers, an isolated current-limited 30V 1A bench power supply, a 15W soldering iron, diagonal cutters and pliers with a fine point.Those are necessary for any project - but with imagination and understanding, you can do an awful lot with just those! They are cheap, so when you blow something up, it won't cost too much. Youwilloutgrow them, but by that time you be able to articulate what youneedandwhy.Consider an Analog Discovery; it is designed for students, and is a useful scope / function generator / AWG / spectrum analyser / network analyser / digital pattern generator / logic analyser. Try to get the educational discount.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 05:33:46 pm
content: I agree with going a bit less expensive on the multimeter, but don't go too cheap neither. Nobody ever complained about buying quality. You might also want to consider two multimeters. Having two is very useful. It is also not usually a good idea to have two instruments or more combined into one unless space on the workbench is a consideration. If you want to upgrade one instrument, then you are locked into upgrading both or duplicating one function. Also if the power supply or some other common part should fail, both instruments are out of commission.A quick list off the top of my head:Multimeter(s)- Uni-t UT139C, $50 eachRigol DZ1054 and hack it, $400 more or lessOne of the Feeltech Function generators, $70 more or lessGet a power supply or two, GOPHERT CPS-3205 5A 32V as an example, $80 more or lessAnd a Hakko fx-888d as already mentioned, around $100.This would be a good set of equipment for a beginner, and even an advanced hobbyist. When you have this you will learn quickly what the limitations the equipment might have for you and what else you might need.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 05:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 12, 2017, 03:58:40 amIt's not hard to make the mistake of poking it in the mains when the markings suggest that it should survive doing so. People doing that are doing nothing wrong, they just haven't learned about unscrupulous manufacturers marking tools with dishonest ratings.I also think most people underestimate the potency and danger of mains power. They've lived around and worked with it their whole lives without much trouble.Quote from: Lightages on September 12, 2017, 05:33:46 pmThose Feeltech function generators have some issues, like most other cheap options, like high voltages on the neutral lead. I'm not sure that's ideal for a beginner.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 09:53:38 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 12, 2017, 05:39:16 pmThat might be a problem yes. Then perhaps this one:http://www.ebay.com/itm/AE20125-10-MHz-Wobbel-DDS-Funktionsgenerator-Komplett-Bausatz-mit-Gehause-USB-/260883293519?var=&hash=item3cbddb254f:m:maG4eB_x6MGJPQHX9K21Xaw

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 10:40:52 pm
content: As to DMMs, I have several including the EEVblog Brymen and a Fluke 189. I also have a couple of bench meters so I really didn't need another meter.Nevertheless, I bought the AN8008 for $25 and it's my go-to meter laying on my workbench. There are others but this one fits the bill quite well.I ordered mine from China but I now see that they are available from Amazon with 2-day Prime delivery:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072JMBLJSNo, I don't plan to use it beyond CAT II, if that. Realistically, the hobbyist will probably never work beyond wall outlet connected devices. I can't imagine why anybody would be working at CAT III levels (switchboards, circuit breakers, etc) with a DMM. The voltage is either there, or it isn't. A 'wiggy' is sufficient! And, if it isn't, the AN8008 isn't the meter to use.https://www.amazon.com/Knopp-K-60-Cat-Number-14460/dp/B003A7T5KGIf you're setting utility transformer taps, use a better meter.I can buy 4 of the Aneng 8008s for what that Brymen meter cost and get free shipping. Yes, the Brymen is a better meter. I have two of them...We all have to start somewhere!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 10:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 12, 2017, 10:40:52 pmThat's the complicated part. Most people here are able to work with the cheapest multimeter safely. They know where to prod safely and what not to mess with without proper gear. A beginner needs more of a buffer, because he knows less about what's wrong and what's right. However, he has less funds to spend on a properly safe multimeter.I think getting a cheap meter like the AN8008 is a decent option, as long as you can be quite sure the user understands what to use it for and what not to use it for. I wouldn't recommend using it on mains or something like Nixie tubes, which isn't infeasible for a home gamer. If the user understands this, it can be a good option and a lot of value for money to get started.On second thought, I think the lads below me make a good point. The AN8008 is probably not a good place to get started.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 11:45:15 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 12, 2017, 10:53:55 pmI think you've hit on a valid point there.I mean, what about a car battery. Only 12V, must be safe, right? Wrong, it can deliver 100s of amps, and dumped into an inadequately protected meter because some bozo forgot the probes were in the amps socket could result in a big and damaging bang. I can see exactly how a beginner might make that "Ah, it's only 12V" mistake.What, me? No, I'm far too experienced to have made a rookie error like that. And if I did I'd be using my nice big beefy Fluke 25. What was that? Oh, yes the Fluke fuses are expensive. How do I know? Oh, I just do, that's all.The point is that all I got was a momentary scare as the fuse went 'bang!' because it was a big beefy, explosive atmosphere rated, Fluke 25 that I picked over one of the baby meters or bench meters that are around because I knew I was working on a high energy circuit.I'd suggest that as far as a multimeter goes, pick up a second hand professional meter off ebay. If you're patient, you'll pick up a Fluke 27 within your budget. It's basic but indestructible; you could use it to beat off a home invasion and it'd still be in spec afterwards. I'm sure others can pitch in with a list of their own favourite professional meters that go for a song secondhand.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2017, 11:48:18 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 12, 2017, 10:40:52 pmIt isn't a matter of starting somewhere when the OP seems to have somewhat of a good budget to start. If all you have is $100, then the cheapest meter that will work is a consideration. When you have a better budget then buying quality that will last is a better option. IMHO the UT139C is enough of a multimeter for almost anyone who is just doing general electronics with the possibility to measure house circuits too. It is better to spend a few bucks more and have something that won't surprise the general user. Getting a meter that isn't suited to general house use is a possible point of error for a beginner.Ironically, the cheapest meter needs to be used by an expert, not the beginner. An expert will understand the limitations of a piece of equipment but a beginner will have no idea. That is the problem with people recommending cheap meters to beginners. They need the extra safety when they make a beginner mistake.In my experienced opinion, the minimum meter beginners should buy is something like the UT139C, or an Amprobe AM510, something like that. Getting a Brymen BM235 or BM257S is a better idea but not necessary. Getting a $5 meter for a beginner is a mistake. The UT136A/B/C/D is almost OK but really in better hands for those who know what NOT to do with them. This is not the domain of a beginner. Same goes with the Aneng meters IMHO.Buy something f quality and don't worry about it. Buy something cheap and always wonder.....

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 12:31:51 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 12, 2017, 11:48:18 pmI agree. With actually quite a reasonable budget available, safety shouldn't be compromised. I would opt for getting one of the Brymens mentioned. Those should be safe when doing stupid things, with only a fuse and your ego taking damage.I'd also argue that it's better to get a few proper tools, rather than buying a full set of compromises. You can buy something like a Brymen BM257, a DS1054Z and a soldering station from a reputable brand and you'll have a great set that's safe to use and will last you years. You will likely have some money left to spend on a cheap, but otherwise fine function generator that will do the trick for now. There don't seem to be a lot of options for function generators at <$150 that aren't Chinese and a compromise in some way that requires slightly more expertise.My preliminary suggestions would be:- Brymen BM257 with logging capabilities- DS1052E/DS1054Z- Hakko FX-888D- Something like a very cheap FG-100 function generator, JDS-6600 or any other generator on a plugpack from eBay, and operate it from a power bank to prevent any grounding issues.The first three items should last you a long time, well beyond any possible upgrades in the future. The function generator should allow you to experiment without breaking the bank. A proper function generator can be quite expensive, so getting a proper one would severely compromise the other items.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 01:35:21 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 12, 2017, 05:33:46 pmI agree on the following:Uni-TUT139Cas a minimum for something with acceptable safety for mains. Given the OP is in the US, it's possible to get a UT139C for $34.05 from China or $36.09 from the US at the time of posting this. Pennies tend to count, so a pair of these could be had for ~$75.RigolDS1054ZoscilloscopeHakkoFX-888Dsoldering station and say ~5 tips (see other threads for recommendations for a starter set)As per a PSU (preferably a triple channel linear unit), I'd recommend going with quality used gear. Decent units can be had for ~ $100 - $130 shipped on eBay if you're patient.The second choice for a function generator (AE20125) looks decent at a quick glance, but I'd also recommend at least considering used.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 01:45:51 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 13, 2017, 01:35:21 amWhy do you figure Uni-T meters are acceptably safe on mains? Dave doesn't seem to be too impressed by the safety features of these meters. There doesn't seem to be much reason to trust them more than a cheap Aneng meter and that's one of the more expensive models.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 02:41:37 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 13, 2017, 01:45:51 amThe UT139C's protections are more robust than the UT61 or UT71 series'. They're not the most extensive (CAT III, 600V), but they're acceptable.If you're curious on features & specs, here's theEnglish Manualfor the UT139C.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 03:20:28 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 13, 2017, 01:45:51 amDave tried a Uni-T that was reviewed and discredited before on these forums. Why?I have both the UT71E that he reviewed and the UT139C that I recommend. Just like I might recommend one car from Chevrolet and not recommend one from another, I can do the same with multimeters. The UT139C is designed much better. Dave can say what he thinks, I can say what I think. Dave is not god. Ask him!The UT139C is sufficiently well built I have no concerns to recommend it. The Aneng meters, well not so much. The UT136A/B/C, not for total newbies. Brymen anythingFluke is safe and well built but big bucks for less features. I recommend what I know.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 05:58:43 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 12, 2017, 11:45:15 pmYou reminded me of a guitarist friend, who, many years ago, asked me what the best meter was. From my (at that time) limited knowledge, I pointed him to Fluke. Later he went out and spent (what I would have considered) a small fortune on a Fluke DMM. I thought this was complete overkill - but after one of his initial tests with his new meter, I had second thoughts about that criticism. I was keen to see him andcheck out his new bit of kitwalk him through his new acquisition, but he already had some things in mind.....He wanted to check his household mains current."He didn't!!?" You might exclaim.Yes .... he did.All that was to show for it was one very dead fuse - and one rather puzzled owner.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 07:23:34 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 12, 2017, 11:48:18 pmOr tell the beginner to only use it on "intrinsically safe" things, e.g. less than 30V.That voltage is sufficient for many (most?) beginners' purposes, and if they need to exceed it then they have been forewarned that they are heading into less safe territory.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 01:28:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 13, 2017, 07:23:34 amSo, to protect the beginner, we need to recommend CAT IV 1000V meters as a minimum. After all, they just might decide to stumble into working on utility distribution.Nothing is safe! I don't care how good your meter is if you drop your ChannelLocks across the battery terminals of your car. Or, you wear your watch with metal band while reaching up behind a dashboard.I just don't see hobbyists working beyond the definition of CAT II - cord connected devices. On my bench, 12V would be a higher voltage. OK, I do use +- 15V for op amps. But these supplies have serious current limitations.Designing mains connected SMPSs? Why? It's been done and every conceivable variation is for sale on eBay. Think you're going to cut a fat hog? Forget about it, better engineers have tried.I would be willing to bet that none of the folks around here wear the mandated low voltage gloves when working on > 50V. They are required in industry but never used by hobbyists unless the voltage gets crazy high. And even then...The Aneng fuses are only rated 250V and that seems strange for a meter with a 600V CAT III 1000V CAT II rating but the highest voltage I could conceivably work on would be 240VAC and I don't use DMMs for that kind of work.It's funny in a way: There was a time when DMMs didn't have a rating, there was a time when DMMs didn't exist and there was a time when V-O-Ms weren't even fused. But, somehow, we're still here. Amazing!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 01:36:44 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 13, 2017, 07:23:34 amI think the car battery example shows fairly decently why low voltages do not necessarily equate to no issues. Current measurements are more likely to get you into hot water anyway.Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 01:28:10 pmWhy do you think measuring equipment and safety ratings were invented in the first place? Because better men and women than us paid the price for not having them. I don't think anyone expects a hobbyist to work on industrial equipment. However, the gear should be safe with anything commonly and reasonably found inside the home. That includes poking the mains with a meter apparently rated to do so.We should also take into account that people are forgetful. Even if you know a meter is unsafe for anything but low voltage now, will you still know when you pick it up in 5 years, when the hobby has died off but the multimeter is still around? Will a random family member?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 02:34:19 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on September 13, 2017, 05:58:43 amImagine if it had been a drummer... [fx: rimshot]

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 03:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: testtube44 on September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 amA lot of people have put thought out responses, I'm just going to list things.SCOPERigol 1054zMicsig Tablet Oscilloscopewait a while and getSiglent SDS1204x-e(price as yet unknown, maybe $500 to $600Multimeter:I'm not going to suggest a model because so many have so many suggestions, but I will say: perhaps choose a model where you can afford two (or even three!) of them. This lets you do things like measure multiple voltage rails, measure voltage and current at once, or measure the multimeter's behavior with another multimeter (this can be a learning experience). Plus, it's handy to have a spare. Unlike oscilloscopes, where all channels will share the same ground (even across two oscilloscopes), it can be handy to have many multimeters so you can probe anywhere without worrying about blowing things up due to ground shorts (battery powered multimeters are floating by design).Soldering Iron:Hakko 888dTS-100(yes, this is really on par with the Hakko) (needs power supply)Function Generator(oldest to newest, I guess):FeelTech FY3224SMHS-5200AFeelTech FY6600RuiDeng JDS6600You asked for a combined power supply and function generator, and you were rebuffed. There are such things, but good ones are extremely expensive. However, the there is this:MHS-5200PThis will let you take the same arbitrary voltage waveforms you can generate with the MHS-5200A but also deliver current (it says up to 30V 1A). This could be useful for testing some things that you otherwise could not test (transformer saturation comes to mind). As a DC power supply, it's probably not great (see later). But for an arbitrary waveform power supply, it might work and might be worth the extra $50 over the MHS-5200A.Some things you didn't list but you will want or need:Isolation Transformer (protect your oscilloscope!)Transistor TesterDC Power Supply: People will rightly claim that this is not the correct thing to do, that you should get a differential/high voltage probe. The bottom line is that we're not made of money and an isolation transformer affords protection:Isolation Transformer on DUT (Device Under Test) will protect your oscilloscope (you still can't connect multiple ground leads to different voltages, but you can connect one ground lead to any voltage you want), but will present a new risk to your personIsolation Transformer on Oscilloscope (when DUT draws too much current) will protect your oscilloscope, but pose new risks to you (coverallexposed metal on oscilloscope)Floating the DUT will present risks to both you and the oscilloscopeFloating the oscilloscope will present risks to you, and will make measurements more difficult and noisy

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 03:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 13, 2017, 01:36:44 pmI have actually seen the results of using a poor defenseless Simpson 260 on 480VAC with the switch and leads set to either Rx1 or some current range. It was hard to tell since the meter approximated a hand grenade. The tech (an HVAC guy) decided to stay out of the electrical end of the business, like forever. There was a bit of plastic embedded in his chest and the engineer with him needed a change of pants. That's the problem with working out of your job classification. 480VAC with 100k Amps of available fault current is no place to mess around.Fortunately, there was no plasma arc between the phases. That would have been exciting!I don't believe there is an appreciable difference between probing the residential panel and a wall outlet 30 feet away. More often than not, the available fault current is on the order of 5000A and, possibly, but rarely, as high as 10,000A. These are not insignificant numbers! But the CAT ratings are for impulses - lightning being the most likely (since we are not running street cars in our houses).In terms of residential troubleshooting, I don't think I would go out of my way to have a CAT III rating although just about every meter claims to have one. And it's all CLAIMS because, AFAIK, UL listings are fairly scarce. There are a lot of CE marks but those are self-certifying. Maybe true, maybe not... How many of the Chinese meters carry a UL Listing? That Uni-T doesn't AFAICT and the Aneng certainly doesn't. Both are CE marked and both carry similar ratings with the Aneng able to withstand a slightly higher voltage applied to the resistance scales.http://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-dmm/0518-dmm-campaign/dmm/fluke_dmm-chfr/files/safetyguidelines.pdfQuoteAny CAT II meter should be fully qualified for residential (family member) work. CAT II is so low on the totem pole that it is almost always a 'lesser included' with some CAT III rating. Neither are going to survive a lighting strike on the pole at the end of my driveway.I'll concede that the ratings are probably bogus on any meter not labelled FLUKE. If the user measures voltage with the probes in the 10A jacks, things are going to go bad. The very best meters try to signal when the probes are misconnected. But, in the end, if the probes are set to measure current and the dial is set to measure current, the meter won't complain until you measure voltage! But this has nothing to do with CAT ratings. But it does go to fuse type and voltage rating. Will the fuse extinguish the arc or not? Wanna bet?Really, the safe bet is to only recommend UL Listed CAT IV 1000V meters. I don't know if anybody makes one because all I see are CAT IV 600V but still... But it only counts if the meter is UL Listed or ETL Listed. CE Mark doesn't mean spit.Another thought: Just because a person knows a little electronics and is fully qualified to blink an LED with an Arduino doesn't mean they should be working on mains. Clint Eastwood said it best: "A man has to know his limitations!".The problem with multimeters is that they are so simple to operate. So simple, in fact, that many users don't stop to THINK. Meters should power up with THINK on the screen!Not saying it won't happen tomorrow but in 60 years, I have yet to pop a fuse in a meter. Heck, they didn't even have fuses when I started.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 04:32:13 pm
content: Using an isolation transformer is the most patently unsafe thing a hobbyist can do! Period!So, you float your scope and hook up one probe with its ground connection to some elevated voltage difference. Even the ground lead is elevated from earth ground. As is the scope and it's BNC connectors. Now, when you go to clip in the ground lead of the second scope, OOPS!, it isn't at ground when you touch it. It isn't necessarily going to connect to an identical voltage as the first probe. That's the second OOPS! You probably can't take simultaneous elevated differential measurements unless there is a common, but not grounded, reference point.This is a huge accident waiting to happen. At best, if then, this should be done by professionals. As a 60 year amateur, I still don't have such a transformer and I have yet to see a need for such a thing.The scope has an A-B function that is likely to be entirely adequate for differential measurements. And the scope can stay grounded!

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 04:56:40 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 04:32:13 pmWhich is why I made the distinction of leaving the scopes connected directly, and isolating the DUT.I find it amazing that you have worked 60 years and never come across a situation where an isolation transformer was necessary. But I don't know what kind of gear you work on...

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 05:55:09 pm
content: Sharp (and safe) probes are worthwhile.For a new guy to try to probe while looking at the meter - it is neither convenient nor safe to have the probes ski the slopes of the solder pads (and short a circuit).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 06:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: technogeeky on September 13, 2017, 04:56:40 pmI don't work on TVs or vacuum tube audio, I don't work on SMPSs, I buy them. There's a lot of stuff I don't do! Not because of risk but because of a lack of interest.Don't let that fool you, I spent my entire career in electrical up to and including 115 kV distribution, HF6circuit breakers, too many 12kV-480/277V unit substations to count (26 at my last job) and a LOT of motor and machine control.Electronics is not an area where I use anything beyond op-amp power supplies. Maybe the odd robotics project with, perhaps, 12V drives and, or course, my CNC mill with a 48V power supply. But everything is ground referenced.Nixie tubes are cool, I have a Heathkit Frequency Counter that uses them. And I built the 10 MHz Dual Channel Heathkit Oscilloscope. Somehow, I survived!I would try to work around the problem of measuring the voltage drop across some component where one end isn't grounded.If I ever find an application thatabsolutely requiresan isolation transformer, I'm going to be using a lot of rubber. Including voltage appropriate gloves.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 06:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 03:37:49 pmCATII is for use in anything in a house that is farther than 10 meters from the distribution panel. How many outlets are that far in your house?Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 03:37:49 pmYeah right. Amrpobe, Keysight, Brymen, Hioki, etc. are all lying.Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 03:37:49 pmBrymen makes CATIV 1000V meters. The Amprobe HD series are also rated the same. These ratings are not needed. I am happy to see meters having CATIII 600V or even 300V for home users.Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 03:37:49 pmPeople keep saying this, "A beginner needs to know". How does a beginner know? What in the word "beginner" means "with experience to know your limitations"?Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 03:37:49 pmSo you are saying that even non-beginners need some help in their equipment to mitigate harm?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 07:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 04:32:13 pmHere is why

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 13, 2017, 06:20:07 pmQuite a few, actually. The house is 3200 sf with two subpanels plus 2 outbuildings with their own subpanels.I don't recall seeing a meter with just CAT II ratings.QuoteIf they have UL or ETL listings then they are compliant. They have been tested by laboratories and found to comply. I don't know how many of those you listed are UL Listed. Maybe all of them. Maybe none. Fluke has UL Listed models.QuoteGood to know! Then that's what we should recommend. Ultimate safety rating!QuoteWell, they should know that they don't know! In industry, it doesn't matter how good you are, if you haven't been trained by the company, with training records, you are untrained.QuoteActually, yes! In industry, it is the experienced that are getting hurt. Yes, the newbies get hurt too but why the old-timers? There is the idea that this is caused by postprandial somnolence - falling asleep (lack of attention) following a meal. Postprandial hypoglycemia is another issue but it takes a little longer to manifest.In one of our training courses, it was brought up that a high percentage of accidents occur right after lunch. Lack of attention, done it a thousand times, not watching what your partner is doing, all contribute.Safety is a very tough subject. Equipment is part of it, personal protective equipment is part, attitude is part, outside factors (fight with the old lady) is a part but procedures is a big part of the solution. Written procedures for all repetitive operations. It's very complicated...But THINK goes a long way toward safety.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 08:06:46 pm
content: The EEVblog Brymen BM235 is UL Listed to 300V CAT IV, 600V CAT III and 1000V CAT II. But itisUL Listed and the logo is on the face of the meter. Note that it isn't suitable for working on 480V 3 phase switchgear.The Brymen BM869s, for example, claims 1000V CAT IV but shows no sign that it is UL Listed. It has great specs but they aren't confirmed by an independent laboratory AFAICT. Perhaps the logo is on the back of the case. I didn't see anything about listing in the manual. I might have missed it...

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 08:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 08:06:46 pmAll Brymens are UL listed.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 09:19:04 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 13, 2017, 08:57:20 pmYou are correct! I got onto their page from a different direction and they clearly show UL for the entire range. It's odd that they don't put the logo on the front like they do for the BM235.Given the UL Listing, the ratings have been tested and are real.http://www.brymen.com/PD02BM860s_869s.htmlScroll toward the bottom and there is a UL and CE symbol.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 09:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 09:19:04 pmWe should note that there are even less scrupulous manufacturers that put UL listings on hardware that hasn't ever seen a test lab from the inside. Having a UL logo on a product isn't a guarantee it's actually UL tested. Some Asian manufacturers put any and all logos on there that customers seem to like.Obviously, the Brymens are the real deal, but you need to do the smell test on cheaper or lesser known units.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2017, 10:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2017, 09:19:04 pmPrinting space on the front panel appears to be very limited with what's already there to my eyes, so I suspect it would have been too crowded and cause confusion had they done so.

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2017, 04:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on September 13, 2017, 07:16:23 pmSo I think I've made an omission and you've slightly misinterpreted this video.1. I should have said that it's important to buy an isolation transformer anddisconnect the ground strap(aka floating the isolation transformer, I believe). I was taking this step for granted, but that is not the case. If you just buy an off the shelf isolation transformer and don't disconnect the ground, you are just transferring the wiring conditions (hot, neutral <-> ground) from the wall outlet to the isolation transformer. This buys you almost nothing (except re-referencing the hot).2. In this video, Mr. Carlson emphasizes the potential dangers of isolation transformers twice, but in two different ways. When he first shows an isolation transformer (without ground removal), he emphasizes how this is dangerous and is gaining you nothing. But then when he removes the ground, he gives hisstandardwarning when doing something that is useful (or necessary to continue) but dangerous. (although he also says "I am not recommending you do this" which I admit is different from his usual warning). I actually might contact him and ask him to redo this video and include a demonstration of all the available options (including the expensive ones like differential probes).I also wonder if an isolation transformer whose output is a GFCI outlet would pass muster as a standard recommendation around here. This might be annoying if testing devices which operate normally with some leakage current (or devices which are malfunctioning and have leakage current), but it would provide a degree of protection. Although I suppose actual measurements might set it off also...

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2017, 08:01:17 pm
content: OK people, this is getting way off topic for the OP. He/She wanted to know what was good equipment to buy as a beginner for the budget that was proposed. This always happens when someone new gets on here and asks a beginner question. Stop debating videos, philosophy of safety blah blah blah. I did the same but in my defense it was because I was correcting the cavalier attitude toward safety demonstrated by some people. IMHO, we should try to present a united front in what a beginner should not buy, at least. I am going to start another thread about this specifically and all can refer to that instead of thread crapping a beginner's post every time.New thread here, let's get back on topic for the OP please.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/beginners-and-beginner-questions-why-the-disparity-in-answers/

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2017, 08:55:15 pm
content: Really beginners don't want to splash the cash right away. That's a bad idea. You blow it all and you find you need something and you're SOL. Not only that, new stuff depreciates instantly, especially crappy Chinese junk which is in budget. Second hand kit has a potential to profit if you want to upgrade later as the depreciation is already done and pricing is volatile. If you make a purchase mistake your losses are minimal.Scope: second hand analogue unit to start with. Tek/Hameg/anything really as long as it works. 50-100MHz bandwidth. $100. Grab some cheap probes off eBay for it.DMM: second hand Fluke 25, 77, 8020 series, 8050, 8060. $50. Grab some new probes for it.Function generator: second hand analogue unit. Krohn Hite, HP, Thurlby, Global Specialities, GW Instek. Anything will do. $50. Grab a couple of BNC and clip leads for it.Soldering iron: Aoyue 936 or other not to shabby Hakko clone. $50. If you're lucky, grab a Weller TCP second hand.Now you've got enough cash to buy a second hand HP/Agilent power supply!Step one is not to buy any crappy Chinese stuff like no brand DDS's until you understand the limitations. You can get a lot better kit that will do you as a beginner.One thing you NEED to buy are some decent snips, strippers and pliers.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2017, 07:41:58 pm
content: I think it's ok to point out safety issues, even for low voltages; especially current measurements should be well observed; just some days ago I worked on a circuit, the benchtop meter wired for voltage and current - common ground of course; a little bit unattentive, touching the wrong red probe on the wrong place - the probes tip is no tip any longer; the 3A 12V SMPS delivered the maximal possible current. It's going so fast; and I can happen to me as well, after about 30 years working on diy electronic cirucits.And let's not forget the flimsy things on several cheap DMM strangely combined with CAT III or even CAT IV labels: 250V fuses for 600V mesurements, flimsy connectors and cables to carry up to 10A a.s.o.So if you know, what you're doing everything is fine, even with a cheapo DMM; if you're doing really really wrong, I wouldn't rely on the protection measures of a Fluke either.To extend my device park and replacing the 2 lousy old cheapo 1999count DMMs, I ordered a UT61E (@Bang 33$) and a UT136D (@Ali 14$). They're quite ok if you know what you can expect.If you can get somewhere the UT61E for less than usual 50 to 55 bucks, take it.What I have to say about all DMMs I already bought is: forget about the supplied cables and probes; get some decent silicone cables and probes which can be called like that; I personally like Hirschmann probes and cables.Scope go for the DS1054Z + hack.About FG I cannot say much; For HF/VHF I'm using a homebrew DDS with an AD9854 and an AD9951; for LF triangle and square I recently added an AD9833, from long time ago I still own a Gwinstek FG 3MHz which I use for higher signal level needs.Soldering station is since years a simple 80W Weller station; I'm thinking about a hot air station for the constantly increasing SMD based works.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2017, 10:01:01 pm
content: Quote from: HB9EVI on September 15, 2017, 07:41:58 pmDefinitely.Some meters might actually handle 600V on voltage function only, but 250V on all current measurements. The user must pay attention to such details, as some will list this on the front panel in some manner, to not at all (where teardowns really come in handy).Quote from: HB9EVI on September 15, 2017, 07:41:58 pmTrue, as CAT ratings are there to protect the user (up to a point), not the meter.Exceed the CAT specs' transient/surge voltage rating however, and even the best name brands can become a grenade.Quote from: HB9EVI on September 15, 2017, 07:41:58 pmGood advice.Most of my stuff is Probemaster as I find it to offer a better deal than other quality brands based on US pricing, but I'd trust Hirschmann, Mueller, Cal Tech, or Pomona/Fluke as a general rule. Shame Oldaker Mfg. Corp.'s plant burnt down, causing them to fold (nearly identical to Probemaster, down to the Softie probe body; some infohere).FWIW, there'sFluke TL71 test leadsavailable on eBay for $6.99 shipped (silicone insulation & rated for 10A). According the member that initially linked these (and has tested them), they're suspected to be genuine units made for the Chinese market.Here's the lastOldaker Catalog(.pdf) I could find for those interested. No Softies pictured, but its solid red & black ergonomic bodied predecessor is (photo on first page). BTW, Probemaster used this same body prior to the current Softie body on the 8000 series' stuff as well. Perhaps Probemaster was one of their suppliers as Mueller was.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2017, 06:13:09 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 15, 2017, 10:01:01 pmCan you link to the post or thread that mentions those Fluke leads?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2017, 06:32:56 pm
content: I think we all scared the OP away. He posted once and has never responded. I sent him a PM and he has not responded. I tried to get people to get back on track for his original question and even started a thread to divert this kind of argument away from here. C'mon people, why do we always have to dog pile on a thread and piss off the beginners?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2017, 06:51:22 pm
content: I think CAT rating is the electrical engineers' dick size and it turned into a dick swinging competition.He'll be on all about circuits forum now.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2017, 08:17:21 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on September 16, 2017, 06:32:56 pmYou're quite right, but on the other hand, should the people just getting into it not get all necessary information to get to right conclusions? I mean just enter once the term 'multimeter' on Ali, ebay or other platform; already for an experienced electro hobbyist it's not an easy decision to choose; so you start a thread here or elsewhere, you check youtube for reviews a.s.o. and sure you end like in good old latin proverb 'quot homines, tot sententiae', you get every possible feedback, and maybe you get to a decision which is acceptable, or you run away and do nothing - so obviously you chose the wrong leisure time activity...

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2017, 09:56:46 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 16, 2017, 06:13:09 pmFound a post fromFungusin theANENG AN8001, 6000 count true RMS Multimeter for $14.thread (link takes you to his post).

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 10:32:55 pm
content: No I'm not gone. I am trying to read through all this. Thank you for your input!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 03:10:19 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 15, 2017, 10:01:01 pmThey’re not “nearly identical to Probemaster”, theyareProbe Master. After the fire, they started reselling Mueller and Probe Master products:Quote(It makes me sad to see that; even that wording reeks of desperation, trying to patch together something in the face of devastation. I wonder why they didn’t have insurance or something... I have two pairs of Oldaker probes — one came with my old Radio Shack meter, the other with a Keithley 197A — and they’re still pretty nice, even if I prefer other probes more.)