Why brand name electrofusion welding machines are so expensive? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 04:19:19 am
content: Hello.A friend of mine is contractor, doing various plumbing works. His electrofusion machine (George Fischer MSA250) recently went nuts (welding process terminated at random stages with random errors), and since it is an older model, oem service not currently available, so he asked me to have a look, since this device is very expensive (something like $13000 was paid for it when it was new). I opened it and see absolutely nothing inside which can cost that much - there's a PFC unit, CV/CC DC/DC converter and some control logic which controls current and timing. I've checked price of the components used, and even if bought on Digikey or mouser, these won't cost more than $300 altogether. But recent models from George Fischer start at $5000, while chinese models can be bought for around $300.So I have two questions:1. Why these are so expensive2. Anyone had chance for repairing these GF machines? Sometimes it does complete fusion successfully, sometimes it won't start at all, or will terminate in 2-3 seconds, displaying the error "fusion terminated manually or fusion terminated unexpectedly". All output transistors and cirucits are fine, cables were checked, all removable plugs removed, cleaned and re-plugged. No luck...

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 07:02:07 am
content: Why so expensive? Because people are willing to pay that, for whatever reason.Fix it? With proprietary and unknown software, good luck. Do they offer any repair assistance, like a maintenance manual? Schematics? Listing of the code? Parts list? Do they sell parts to any repair technician?If not, you are literally on your own so, good luck.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 08:05:36 am
content: If the error code with that message is either E13 or E22 its most likely the control unit detecting power outage, it may just be a bad solder joint or similar. Doesn't sound like the control unit is faulty.As for cost? Brainwashing customers that your product is in some way better/more reliable/after sales service second to none, and you can charge what you like!We use these types of units to seam pipework for PV panel cooling circuits, but not this make anymore, the promises as featured in the last paragraph were found to be total wank.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 08:20:21 am
content: A bad solder joint does sound quite plausible.Maybe see if moving/shaking the device during a welt makes it more likely to stop.Could also just be aging capacitors.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 08:30:36 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on June 15, 2023, 07:02:07 amSo what? It's quite unlikely to be a software issue. So what if they do not sell parts, the vast majority of parts are off the shelf. People successfully repair stuff with no manufacturer help and even with intentional measures to prevent 3rd party repairs.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 06:53:41 pm
content: Ok, here are the issues.Sometimes it completes fusion properly (E1 or E0 code is displayed), BUT it emits series of high volume beeps for some amount of time, and then won't respond to buttons - have to cycle power.During the fusion, E22 error is quite often, but this happens also if I disconnect the load in the middle of fusion. E13 was never seen so far. As my friend says, there were some other errors, but I never seen anything else than E0, E1, E21, E22.This machine was serviced by officials some time ago, while it was still within serviceable age. It had cyclic power on-power off issue, as friend recalls. As I can see from the PCB, they have replaced capacitors in main board power supply and two of 4 of output transistors were also replaced.What I already tried - to avoid any wiring issues, I've connected reasonable thickness wires directly to the output terminals on PCB (these are heavy duty screw terminals), and also used heavy clams to connect them to the heated element. Issues remain same:1. Fusion is completed, but E0 or E1 is displayed at the end and machine no longer responds to buttons until power cycled.2. Fusion is about to start, but E21 is displayed and again, power cycle is needed.3. E22 error is displayed at various time of fusion - it might be 3 seconds from start, 12 seconds from start - no logic found.Shaking/hitting device produces no results.What I plan to do tomorrow is to check the PCB with better attention - As this device controls the current, I guess, there should be something shunt-like, used to sense the current. So I suspect that something might be wrong there, so detection is loss and machine automatically shuts down.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 08:01:51 pm
content: I think E0 and E1 may be something to do with cooling time, I did ask a colleague and they said something about GF products that attain beyond service support age, inexplicably failing, that I can't repeat here.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 08:04:18 pm
content: Considering it throws random errors, I would first check if everything is ok with logic power rails rather that looking for anything high power electronics related.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 04:44:47 am
content: Well, they are not "random" - it has about 50 error codes, but it displays only these. I'll check that rails anways.The main issue is that no manual available for it, only for SE model, which do not have E0 and E1 listed in manual at all.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 11:07:20 am
content: Question: What happens if you buy these $300 parts and throw them together in a box?10x BOM does not seem expensive at all for a specialized instrument that does not sell in millions of units. Try designing it (electronics, certification, software) and then selling and supporting it and see how many man-hours you spend doing that. Then divide by units sold. Rest is margin.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 03:31:27 pm
content: "No reaction to buttons" sounds like some voltage instability, maybe the PSU is toast.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 04:08:19 pm
content: This is by no means a sophisticated or otherwise advanced device.This is fairly standard, forward converter topology PSU, with output current limiting and on/off time adjustment.Basically saying, this is a modified 1200W 36VDC power supply, which outputs 38.5 volts (+-10%, adjustable) with adjustable current limiting and you can also adjust for how long output will be enabled. That's all.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 06:49:58 pm
content: Most things are quite simple. Try to professionally engineer (for manufacturability) one and selling it (including documentation, paperwork, marketing...) and you will see how much time you need to spend on it, even if everything is simple and trivial.