Taking Audiophoolery to The Next Level... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 03:00:52 am
content: If you thought "audio-grade" power cables and plugs were silly enough...http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-gift-for-music-lovers-who-have-it-all-a-personal-utility-pole-1471189463

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 03:04:44 am
content: Not going to subscribe to read more bull.82, I'd like to see his ear tests.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 03:50:26 am
content: There is one element of such a move that I can accept as valid - and that is the isolation from power pollution from other people's appliances, especially motors and SMPS... at least through conduction along shared power lines.Otherwise .....

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 06:09:28 am
content: I'd be very upset if interference on incoming AC power made it through the power supplies of my excessively expensive audio equipment and affected the sound to the extent that I needed to pay $40,000 to have my own utility pole.But, if the interference really does make a difference, why not just invest in an isolation transformer in a box and feed the room from that?It's just another example of audiophool fashion from the golden ears who have more money than sense.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 06:20:05 am
content: Off all the quack ideas put forth by 'audiophiles' the idea of reducing the noise that comes in on the power lines is the least offensive of them. Of course a good power supply should eliminate almost 100% of such noise, but there is at least the chance that some would get through. But, if that was the idea he'd have been better off making his own power and keeping it isolated from all other users/uses particularly motors and arc welders but even compact florescent lamps are kind of noisy. Have a Stirling engine drive a generator with a HUGE flywheel...So, although the idea of spending thousands to install your own power pole is pretty stupid it is less stupid than 99% of the ideas promoted by audiophiles...Brian

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 06:24:42 am
content: It's good that he doesn't know how bad are devices connected to HV grid (for example water pumps running from 6 kV and so on, not sure what are the exact grid voltages in Japan) and how much "electromagnetic interference" (however he defines this term) he'll get from it;)

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 06:28:23 am
content: The separate power pole idea does something far more concrete than a simple isolation transformer.It, more precisely the utility step-down transformer mounted on it, takes its power from a much lower impedance source. One would expect this source will contain less "hash" from consumer appliances from neighbours, since those neighbours'conductedEMI will first have to get throughtheirpower pole transformer (with its effectively 'choke' action). Once on the distribution supply side, this EMI will then be trying to to drive the lower impedance circuit. I can see the attenuation being rather significant.This attenuated conducted EMI then goes through our Japanese lawyer's pole transformer and is going to be many dB down as compared to pre pole conditions.Quote from: karoru on August 16, 2016, 06:24:42 amDamn.... there goes a perfectly good theory.On the matter of EMI in the lawyer's home, I suspect all SMPS supplies will be physically unpowered during a listening session - and I would bet his room lighting would be old-fashioned incandescent.I would bet the rest of the household keeps the fridge door closed too, in case a loss of cold air causes the motor to kick in....

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 06:32:50 am
content: QuoteThese motors are real beauties. This one works for powering the fan in coal mine, but a bit smaller ones are used for water pumps;)Around 1.3 kA inrush current on start:))

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 06:51:55 am
content: I should have thought a little harder....This also reminds me of the very first full-time job I had. I worked in the EDP department (is that showing my age?) of a company that had several divisions - one of which had a computer program that was used in the design of conveyor belts ... ones 7 miles long carrying coal.Even back then I was in awe of the mechanical and electrical considerations in starting one of those up from stationary.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 06:55:15 am
content: Quote from: karoru on August 16, 2016, 06:24:42 amStill, these spikes might be more tolerable than a constant SMPS buzz.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 07:08:58 am
content: The only way to *really* achieve what he's aiming for would be battery supplies for all the audio gear, eliminating all the transformers and DC-DC converters, ideally using nothing that requires a clock source either.In a Faraday cage designed to exclude all external magnetic/electromagnetic influences.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 07:37:39 am
content: Well, it could, they never said what kind of resonance it isWhen I put a food plate on one of my speakers it tends to resonate badly and make ugly noise, after I use a rubber mat it works just fine. I've got active speaker set so it does exactly as advertised when used on one with amplifier inside.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 08:43:24 am
content: Yet another corollary to Beranek's law. It is the ONE reason to never ever mix loudspeaker engineering (filter theory, power response, optimization, TS parameter control, etc) with loudspeaker marketing (sounding, tuned by ear, cryogenically dipped earwax). It is as if they are not the same product.The same law can be expanded to power supplies, capacitor upgrades, etc. The professor said it best. It is the power of imagination - and he called it sacred.Beranek's LawIt has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 08:48:02 am
content: I hope you didn't mean that it's power of my imagination that poorly manufactured and skew food plate put on loud playing speaker vibrates and makes noises like waiter with shaky hands and tray in busy restaurant:D

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 09:02:52 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 16, 2016, 07:36:43 amI was told by a colleague who was into HiFi that there was a piece of audiophoolery which started as a prank in the 80's.Someone placed an innocuous little ad in a HiFi magazine to sell a miracle fix for hiFi equipment.It was a square of a 'special' material that you placed under one foot of your turntable to improve the sound.It got reviewed positively by the high and mightys of a couple of HiFi magazines and sold like wildfire, helped by the price, it was less than £10.Until the inventor outed himself and told everyone he was selling squares of plastic cut from garbage bags to see how gullible people were.Even after that he still received orders and positive testimonials.There may be a grain of truth in the fabric claim if the fabric is large enough, different wallpapers make a surprising amount of difference to the sound, I don't know if it's better or worse from a technical point of view, I just know from personal experience it makes a difference. (I may not be able to hear the difference any more as I'm 25 years older.)

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 09:41:39 am
content: An utility pole. It will certainly sounds better now...Actually, if I were him, I would also buy a LISN for the amplifier..

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:21:52 am
content: Quote from: karoru on August 16, 2016, 08:48:02 amNot at the least. But it is the power of imagination as to what that means. Surly sans the rattling plate the Stradivari will stand out more. But is that important? A Stradivari is still a Stradivari over AM radio. Sure - not clean sounding. But it is still Yehudi Menuhin playing a Stradivari.But for these guys, a pole made them cry. That is an emotional response - and may not be rational.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:33:04 am
content: I think, we should sell him a power plant. Pure and clean energy with fine tuned electrons for the best audio experience he ever had.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:42:29 am
content: Quote from: madires on August 16, 2016, 10:33:04 amHow about a solar system with dual battery banks.... charge one and use the other. Feed power to the HiFi through a linear pure sine wave inverter - or, better still, rewire the sound gear to run directly off DC.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 10:53:15 am
content: "The only way to *really* achieve what he's aiming for would be battery supplies ..."A dedicated generator powered by a motor off the dirty grid.Basically, his own electric utility.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 11:06:34 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on August 16, 2016, 10:53:15 amNot clean enough.Ask the people on the metalworking forums, apparently you can see the effect of single phase motors on fine metalworking, apparently they leave a 'swirl' pattern on the finish, a three phase motor gives a better finish, I would imagine you could make an audiophool case for that 'pattern' being transferred into the sound.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 11:28:32 am
content: No, it has to be suffciently expensive. A PV system with two battery banks is nice, but too cheap. Maybe it would work with some audiophoolery solar wiring (US$2500 per meter).

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 01:00:55 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on August 16, 2016, 10:53:15 amYou should consider electro-chemical noise of batteries.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 01:13:04 pm
content: I've been fighting these audio crack smokers for years but this one really takes the piss.Edit: a friend of mine bought some stones to tape round his interconnects because from some crazy person. It goes THAT deep. Here I am with the shitty plastic RCA leads that came with it and I'm the mug apparently?!?!?!Edit 2: seriously considering registering audiobollocks.com and dealing with this.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 01:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: setq on August 16, 2016, 01:13:04 pmWell you can buy it but they won't listen. You'll be branded some sort of conspiracy theorist, a competitor or just a plain idiot who can't see common sense.I have had the conversation many, many times in the past when I worked with HiFi gear, one guy even went as far as bringing his own solder to me for a repair, 'while you're repairing it can you take all the solder off and resolder everything with this please, it's audiophile grade'That was 30 years ago when I was a TV/Video/HiFi repair tech so this isn't a recent phenomenon

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 01:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: razberik on August 16, 2016, 01:00:55 pmIt's time we should start educating audiophool people about Johnson noise, so they will start putting their cables in liquid nitrogen.I see new market in audiophile-grade liquid nitrogen delivery.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 02:04:36 pm
content: Hopefully they'll fall in the LN2

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 02:23:48 pm
content: Quote from: setq on August 16, 2016, 02:04:36 pmDipping them in LN2 improves the noise floor immensely.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 02:57:50 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on August 16, 2016, 02:23:48 pm

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 03:26:55 pm
content: "Here comes the sun..."*ZAP* *"sun" burns out**GASP* "NNNOOOOO! My perfect clean-room, climate controlled, faraday cage, artificial outdoor environment for my speakers is RUINED! Must rebalance the electromagnetic feilds!"*replaces blown bulb with magnetic carbon-filament wiggly bulb* (google "carbon filament flicker bulb") *oh, but this one is specially designed to have a pefectly balanced wiggle to ensure the electromagnetic fields are properly distributed throughout the room*

author: tatus1969
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 08:12:24 pm
content: if he wanted clean energy for his amp, he should have run it on batteries! O0

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 09:41:44 pm
content: "I've been fighting these audio crack smokers for years"1. Can you find a better way to use your time?2. Is it healthy for you to be so dedicated to this cause of yours?

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 07:20:15 am
content: 1. This is usually in passing.2. Yes. It's invigorating

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 08:02:06 am
content: Didn't Dave go trolling up some audiophool forum at some time or other?

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 08:36:15 am
content: Interesting. I'd like to see that if it happened.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 11:14:22 am
content: 'Didn't Dave go trolling up some audiophool forum at some time or other?'I wonder what a psychologist would say about that.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 12:01:51 pm
content: Everyone can be influenced, already with words. If someone tells you that this is going to be the best experience of your life, it is breathtaking and beautifull, then pulls out something that looks big and beautifull and shiny you are already being pre-programmed and are not able to do an objective experiment.This was tested over and over. Even with highly regarded audio experts, they were fooled by vision. So the only true way to test something is a double blind AB test without seeing the equipment and switching instantaneously between the two setups.This is never done in audio shows and fails the criteria every time, even worse, since you do not know the acoustic rooms, amplifiers and speakers you have 0 to compare it to.Oh well, the same goes for so many other things in this world, winetasting the same problems and discovered when they mixed a red colour in the white wines of the expert test panel. They all failed.Same in our branch probably, if the equipment has a HP logo on it everyone is starting to drool, if it has a Chingdong logo the mouth stays dry.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 12:09:24 pm
content: Having dealt with HP enterprise and HP calculators over the years, the HP logo makes me sigh and reluctantly get the burned out credit card for another mugging

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 06:41:08 pm
content: According to audiofool physics it is possible to affect a low frequency signal by putting a stone or a piece of wood next to the cable carrying it.If that really was the case, then it would be impossible to have high speed signals like HDMI or USB. Simply moving stuff around the room would be enough to make the device stop working.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 06:56:12 pm
content: Well they sell $100 USB patches to cover that problem!

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 10:01:40 pm
content: Snake oil salesmen never went away, they just moved into audio...Brian

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 07:49:48 am
content: Quote from: raptor1956 on August 17, 2016, 10:01:40 pmand second hand cars

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 04:03:35 am
content: Did you know,that for the price of some of this audiophoolery crap, you can buy an entire...DIESEL LOCOMOTIVE?!(actually some trains are cheaper)So if one had alot of money...You know where this is going right?*HOOOONK!* *CRUNCH!*What good is your pseudo-science now?! Mwahahahahahaaa!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 05:04:47 am
content: FLASHBACKThe Sydney Royal Easter Show is an annual show which is run by the Royal Agricultural Society of NSW. It is the major show event in Sydney and has become quite diverse in what you can find there. Regular attractions include judging of livestock, arts and crafts as well as carnival rides and the obligatory food items of questionable origin. As well, there are exhibitors of all manner of products from the blue stick that keeps your eyeglasses clear - even held over a pot of boiling water - and massive machinery. But one year has a particular memorable moment.....I was walking through the Manufacturer's Pavilion when I thought I heard a train. This was strange as the nearest train line was miles away (at that time). Slowly, but surely, the sound grew more distinct ... and louder. The volume increased to such a level that I was looking around for the diesel locomotive! It built to such a crescendo that you would swear you were standing no more than 20 feet from the railway tracks as it roared past ... and then it faded into the distance.I was drawn to the origin and came across a truly mouth watering sight.Before me was a display of speakers and amplifiers that seemed 30 feet high and 20 feet wide. It was all there ... big bass bins, stacks of midrange, tweeters and horns. Amplifiers galore - all presented in a symmetric stereo stack, like a Manhattan skyline. It was pretty. It was impressive. (It was never seen again at the Show.)How to have your Audiophooleryandtrain .... without the diesel smell (or is that part of the charm?)

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 12:10:32 am
content: "Charm" would be to connect a high power stereo to a steam train. (You'd have to get a 32V DC to AC converter)Then you take a bunch of people on a ride at max speed while you blast them with Ozzy.EDIT: "audiobafoonery"

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 02:00:39 am
content: I mentioned back a bit that if you wanted to generate your own power to have total isolation from the grid that a Stirling engine and a generator with a huge flywheel would be the way to go. Stirling engines have a near perfect sinusoidal power output and the flywheel would integrate transients away.Come on guys, how bout a Kick Starter where we build a, say, a 5KW Stirling generator and sell them to Audiophiles for ... $1M each -- Dr. Evil would approve...Brian

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 06:38:37 am
content: Sign me up.I'm starting to think that the engineers who design this stuff are fully aware they are just laughing the way to the bank. I'm also starting to be annoyed at my sense ethics that stops me joining them

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 06:42:25 am
content: Quote from: setq on August 20, 2016, 06:38:37 am+1The only consolation I take is that one day the universe will get them.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 07:46:20 am
content: Yes, it will. My uncle, a nefarius rip off car dealer was killed delivering one of his own cars when the suspension collapsed on the front nearside wheel and he lost control of it. Rolled it three times and wasn't wearing a seat belt (because it didn't work properly).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 07:51:07 am
content: Ouch.That's Karma with a capital 'K'