Sexism in technical literature - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: skerdzius
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 01:47:24 pm
content: Hello,currently I am reading An introduction to parallel programming book and it's about how to program and stuff, you know, in strict technical terminology. And when author wants to say something like: the user writes this and that, program works like this... And this is writen from a women perspective (in my mind it means like "stupid" first time user of something)QuoteAnd these references are everywhere in the book. I am not native english speaker and I find it funny and sexist I supposeWhat do you think about this, is it common in technical literature? I don't read it much in english and come across it for the first time.

author: AndrejaKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 01:55:23 pm
content: From what I've seen, this is a problem of English language.Back in the old days, he, in sense described in the paragraph, meant both male and female. Then came the "political correctness" and suddenly it was sexist to use to describe some imaginary user. After that, fighters for political correctness came up with several ways of avoiding that. First was to use "he/she' or "he or she" and so on. Another popular way was to mix genders, so sometimes it would be "he" and sometimes it would be "she". Third way used in some publications is to switch from he to she completely.In my opinion this all is very silly and a waste of time, but it seems important for some people.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 02:01:25 pm
content: I've seen a few different conventions:1. Use singular "they". God, this one grinds my gears.I know language evolves and all that... but it just sounds so freaking weird to me!2. Use all "he" - yep, sexist. Most gendered languages unfortunately default to male.3. One that's less common (and I rather like it) is to alternate genders for example people. Story about her, story about him, story about her, etc.4. Use "he/she" or "(s)he".Slightlybetter than "they"...In computing there is the stereotype of the "Grandma" or "Aunt Sally" or whatever. This isn't always a negative stereotype - it's often more of a "normal person who just wants it to work so she can get shit done". It may not have even come from the stereotype of women not being good with technology, but maybe from that of women being more likely to ask for help, or whatever. Of course, one could argue that all stereotypes are negative (in a way, I'd agree). The tendency to use "she" in this position may in fact derive from this.Quote from: AndrejaKo on November 10, 2013, 01:55:23 pmBullshit. Writers write, it's what they do. It's not a waste of time to try to figure out the best way to do it. I don't think it's right to go around bitching at people for following the old style, but there's certainly nothing wrong with trying to avoid it yourself.

author: AndrejaKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 02:16:18 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 10, 2013, 02:01:25 pmWell in my opinion, those that spend large amounts of their time deciding what is the most politically correct way of writing are about as useful as those who spend most of their time debating whether it's better to use electron current flow or traditional current flow.In the end, both are just power dissipated and no useful work done.

author: skerdzius
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 02:23:17 pm
content: Well I learned something new from both of you about writing rules in english literature. Thanks. It was useful

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 02:49:23 pm
content: I'm willing to bet the first draft was written with all "he". Then the publisher sent it back with a punch list of issues and corrections, one of which was, "it's not politically correct..., drop in some "she".Just my opinion.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 04:52:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kryoclasm on November 10, 2013, 02:49:23 pmNot necessarily. The author could be a woman.Or, how should I say this? There are certain men who areeager to pleaseand play silly games like this to show how much they have "learned their historic lesson". One such group that is on the rise are the modern metrosexuals. Sociologists have more categories for them. Funny enough, radical feminism condemn them, because it is not the right kind of feminism. So these guys are just making a fool of themselves.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 05:36:55 pm
content: It has become quiet popular to use different pronouns to denote different roles in a text. I have seen this in Pen&Paper books (gamemaster -> "she", player -> "he"), in technical literature (sender -> "she", receiver -> "he") and even in legal documents (client -> "he", lawyer -> "she"). Sometimes it helps to make a certain personal distinction clearer: Even if you skip some of the text to get to the important part, you'll still know who's doing what. So in a few cases this is actually helpful. In most its just irritating. That being said I fail to see why your example is sexist. It's meant to include women.Personally I think there are more useful things to do than debating about language. It's just a non-issue in most developed countries that we will outgrow naturally over the next two or three generations. My university spent thousands to change their legal documents and websites to say "he/she" instead of the comprehensive masculine form. This money could've been spent to pay women as well as their male counterparts or gone to charities that support victims of domestic violence. Changing the language is just a red herring to make it seem so something has been done so people will be content. Also the craziest people often yell the loudest.Btw., here in Austria it's even discussed to take historical words like "Mohr" (old German word for a maximally pigmented person) or "Zigeuner" (word for people of Romani ethnicity) out of the classical fairy tales because they are deemed offensive. And they do carry a negative connotation nowadays. But that's no reason to change history and deny the past. If you explain to children why these words are offensive, they'll be much better off than just not knowing them.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 05:59:22 pm
content: "he" sexist, racist against she."she" sexist, racist against he."she/he" then she is before he, a problem for he."he/she" then he is before she, a problem for women."they" less respect to both.so...what aboutshemale?Feminists will love it so much!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 06:31:43 pm
content: Quote from: skerdzius on November 10, 2013, 01:47:24 pmI think that sentence has an awkward turn of phrase. It can be made more readable and can eliminate the gender problem at the same time by wording it like this:One of the purposes of MPI_Init is to define a communicator that consists of all of the processes started when the program starts.This is something that a book editor may be expected to advise authors about.(Note that programs don't always get started by a human user; they may be started by an agent such as a script, a batch job or a work queue.)

author: skerdzius
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 07:35:08 pm
content: QuoteWell programmer writing the code could be man or woman. As I read the book all references where as "she" so it got my attention.QuoteI took this as an example, there are more sentences like this where it is inevitable to somehow identify the user as he or she or whatever else.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 07:45:55 pm
content: Use the world "one".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_(pronoun)I've even seen referenced a PCB assembly as "he". It made me laugh outside and cry inside.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 08:09:58 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 10, 2013, 07:45:55 pmI have ahugeproblem with anthropomorphizing electronics and software.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 08:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 10, 2013, 08:09:58 pmSome languages don't distinguish between the personal and impersonal pronouns, so "he" and "it" are the same word. In fact English may be unusual in having a special word for "it".

author: AndrejaKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 08:40:40 pm
content: Yeah! For example here in Serbian we have male female and genderless but not an object pronouns, so a soldering iron, PCB or a probe would be female an oscilloscope, a multimeter, cable or spectrum analyzer would be male. Child or puppy or kitten would be genderless (can't think of any genderless terms).Then we have logical and physical genders as well. So an engineer would be male, but if that particular engineer is female, you'd use female pronouns for her.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 09:41:20 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Political correctness, particularly the militant feminist kind pretty much demands an Orwellian kind of double think. The use of he as an inclusive generic pronoun in English is well known, so it was necessary to pretend that this was not the case, and that grammar itself was sexist. If English is sexist, then German and many other Indo-European languages must be really sexist. Now the practice is to use the word Actor to apply to both sexes, go figure. I am sure you have all encountered the personhole cover instead of manhole cover idiocy.--Gloria Steinem led the fight to require everyone to address all women as Ms (pronounced miz), so that women (sometimes spelled wimin for obvious reasons) would not have to betray their marital status by form of address. This results in constructions like Ms. Rodham-Clinton, using the "Ms", so that marital status is not disclosed and the "Rodham-Clinton" so that marital status will be disclosed, go figure some more.--The general practice of using words like Actor to refer to both sexes, make a certain kind of sense though. After all, somehow an Old Master and an Old Mistress would seem to have somewhat different connotations."The truth is that even if the allegations are true, the President  is not guilty of sexual harassment.Gloria Steinem 1934 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 10:07:05 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on November 10, 2013, 09:41:20 pmUsing actor to refer to both sexes makes as much sense as using he to refer to both sexes--actor/actress, he/she. So we should just go back to "he" and stop with the useless gyrations.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2013, 10:11:05 pm
content: IMO most of the time it is just sloppy writing that leads one to use "he" or "she" in technical writing.QuoteIn addition to the solution IanB proposed, this could just as easily be written as:One of the purposes of MPI_Init is to define a communicator that consists of all of the processes started by the user when the program startsOne of the purposes of MPI_Init is to define a communicator that consists of all of the processes initiated by the user when the program is startedand of course:One of the purposes of MPI_Init is to define a communicator that consists of all of the processes started by the user when they started the programI've never understood why some people have issues with the word "they" in these cases. Is sound just fine to my ear and I can't see why it could be considered disrespectful -

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:13:40 am
content: Some people object to the singular use of they since it's against traditional usage. It avoids the choice between her or his or the use of the ugly he/she. Converting the sentence to the plural is often more elegant (eg. every student should take his/her/their notebook -> all students should take their notebooks), but is not always possible.Alternating use of male and female characters, for example in crypto it's usually Alice that sends a message to Bob, has become fairly common in technical and scientific writing, so it doesn't strike me as unusual. Actually writings that only use male characters seem old-fashioned to me.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:21:45 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on November 10, 2013, 10:11:05 pmNot disrespectful, weird. It's like saying "I'm eating one apples". Singular 'they' doesn't sound singular at all to me, it sounds like a plural word shoved where it doesn't belong.That said, I've given up on being the annoying asshole who has to control other people's grammar (and I've grown a bit more lax with it myself), but I am no more likely to intentionally use singular 'they' than I am to say "one apples". Occasionally it may slip out, as you pick up the speech patterns of those around you, but when I notice myself saying it I feel very strange.

author: Seg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:37:15 am
content: I use singular "they". It's the least ugly, jarring and disrespectful option IMHO. Don't like it? Come up with something I like better.Mind you I'm in the bay area, where gender is a bit more fluid than other places...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:40:48 am
content: Quote from: Seg on November 11, 2013, 01:37:15 amLike I said, I don't care if you use it. It just feels weird to use it myself.As far as 'disrespectful', if people are going to get offended because of the pronoun I chose to use, they can bite me.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:44:34 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 11, 2013, 01:21:45 amQuote from: c4757p on November 11, 2013, 01:40:48 amGlad to see you haven't given up, and don't worry I'll help you bare the load.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:47:02 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on November 11, 2013, 01:44:34 amOK, point taken, maybe that was a bit harsh, but still - if you don't tell me what pronouns to use, I won't tell you what pronouns to use. And for Christ's sake don't be offended by a pronoun.Of course, I never said I've given up on ever being an annoying asshole for any reason, just on being one who corrects grammar! Not that an annoying asshole is something which anyone should aspire to be...And I'm starting to derail yet another thread with a tangent, so perhaps I should just shut up and let people go on not giving a shit whether I use singular 'they'.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:51:16 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 11, 2013, 01:47:02 amNo point was intended, my sarcasm often gets the best of me, I'm happy to bare some of the annoying asshole load.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 01:55:41 am
content: Hehe... I'm still suffering the effects of a concussionearlier today (motherf-ing garage floor, oil change, grumble grumble...) and I really had no clue what you meant by "and don't worry I'll help you bare the load"...Sarcasm isn't usually that hard for me...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 02:14:41 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on November 11, 2013, 01:44:34 amThe mind boggles at that, but perhaps bearing the load might be more appropriate?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 02:16:46 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 11, 2013, 01:21:45 amRe disrespectful - I was referring to Integrated values earlier post.It don't sound weird to me but then I'm weird and often grammatically incorrect...(and not very good at checking for typos before I post..)

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 02:18:19 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 11, 2013, 02:14:41 amAs were making fun of the English language, absolutely not.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 03:17:30 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:Quote from: mtdoc on November 10, 2013, 10:11:05 pm--For this to be proper, strictly speaking, he (I.E. the person referred to) would have to have a mouse in his pocket. Remember in English the male pronoun when used in the general sense, includes all genders and sexes, of which, now there are 6 or more. So now, we can see why this choice was made in the first place, I.E. to avoid ponderous circumlocutions. What do you suppose the PC Word Jihadis are going to do with words like bosun's mate. The newest aircraft carrier in the U.S. Navy is named the Gerald R. Ford, but is still referred to as she by the ship's complement. Ships being ladies.--If we are going to make everything fair and gender neutral, why have Women's Chess? And should not the title "First Man on the Moon" be "First Person on the Moon". Why should the entire language be redesigned according to whether fish need bicycles, or not. Trying to find sexism in linguistic grammar, is like complaining about the fact that in the evolution of sexual differences in our ancestors, the first multicellular animals, the female got stuck with the egg, rather than the sperm. Believe it or not this has been complained about. So far I am unaware of any complaints about the mitochondrial situation, but I do expect them any day now.“In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has. Think what overwrought reverence that shows for the turnip, and what callous disrespect for the girl.”Samuel Langhorne Clemons, Mark Twain 1835 - 1910Best RegardsClear Ether

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 03:20:46 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on November 11, 2013, 03:17:30 amI love this.QuoteAnd this too. That wholeessayauthor is fabulous.Definitelyrecommended reading.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 03:26:41 am
content: I'm not a big fan of the using the "she" or "he/she"word just just to appear politically correct (or human kind instead of mankind etc), but I do catch myself doing it every now and then.When I'm saying high to more than one person, I always use the word "guys", even if it's a group of women.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 04:34:25 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 10, 2013, 02:01:25 pmThe singular use of the word they (their, them) evolved almost 500 years ago, I think it's fairly safe to say, it's here to stay.http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.htmlOxford English Dictionary; They:2. Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by every, any, no, etc., or applicable to one of either sex (= `he or she').1526Pilgr. Perf. (W. de W. 1531) 163b, Yf... a psalme scape ony persone, or a lesson, or else yt. they omyt one verse or twayne.Some more references...ShakespeareGod send every one their heart's desire![Much Ado About Nothing, Act III Scene 4]There's not a man I meet but doth salute me,As if I were their well-acquainted friend.[Comedy of Errors, Act IV Scene 3]ThackerayNo one prevents you, do they?George EliotI shouldn't like to punish anyone, even if they'd done me wrong.Walt Whitman...everyone shall delight us, and we them.Elizabeth BowenHe did not believe it rested anybody to lie with their head high...Lawrence DurrellYou do not have to understand someone in order to love them.Doris LessingAnd how easy the way a man or woman would come in here, glance around, find smiles and pleasant looks waiting for them, then wave and sit down by themselves.C. S. LewisShe kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes.[Voyage of the ``Dawn Treader'' Chapter I]Oscar WildeExperience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 06:06:05 am
content: Sometimes I suspect we get anal about these topics and spend lots of energy on them because the topics are something we can directly address.Things like literal crackheads in political office or similar positions of power, public education systems that no longer teach how to think but instead prepare children to be slotted into specialised job roles and wars based on outright lies and deception which send good people to their deaths are much harder to tackle.I'll refrain from mentioning countries that literally have flying killer death robots that fly and kill actual people; oh, whoops...I actually write all prose using either "they" or "one" because it doesn't bother me much and doesn't offend most people (so they leave me alone).Conversely, I myself am not offended if "she" is used as the primary gender in prose; I'm usually just after the information.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 07:28:41 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 10, 2013, 08:09:58 pmBut we do it all the time,by saying for instance.that a circuit "sees its load as an inductance", or whatever.On the other hand,I remember being told to keep Technical descriptions impersonal,& not using statements like:-"From the above,wecan see that ----------yada,yada,yada."

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 07:33:35 pm
content: I sometimes pretend to be an insensitive misogynist prick if I encounter a feminazi. Just for the hell of it.I can understand the frustration of women if they are treated unequally when it comes to job positions and salaries, but shouting about every little gender-related dilemma just pisses me off. Some things are only a problem because retarded feminists make them.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 07:00:24 am
content: In Greek grammar we always use the "he" to refer to a group of people or to a single person that could either a man or a woman.Alexander.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 07:05:05 am
content: since English likes to mug other languages for their words... they could always add some politically correct genderless pronouns.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 08:12:35 am
content: Yep, a big part of the problem is people who think something is sexist/racist if there's some way to interpreted it as such.The intent of something should be far more important than the reaction to it.Sadly people often get that reversed and find something offensive which has nothing to do with sex or race.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 10:58:00 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on November 10, 2013, 09:41:20 pmWell women are addressed by their marital status while men aren't for historical reasons that are somewhat divorced from gender equality. It's a stupid and irrelevant thing nowadays.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 11:31:06 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 11, 2013, 07:28:41 amI wasn't writing very clearly. I have a "problem" in that I do it way too much! I'd find myself from time to time saying that the circuit sees "his" load as an inductance, and whether or not he likes that

author: tehmeme
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 11:38:07 am
content: Quote from: GK on November 12, 2013, 10:58:00 amIt's a good and interesting point. I wonder if that was historically adopted to curb unsolicited male attention? (similar to a wedding ring?)Case in point, just look at the comments section of any popular technical youtube video by any female (engineer or otherwise).The type of language used by a not-insignificant minority of comments is related & qualified as "good female engineer" and role models as opposed to "good engineers" or the subject of the video.Of course add to that mix the praise disguised as marriage proposals and "looks and brains" comments, which I rarely see on any of the other youtuber's pages. (I may have seen a marriage proposal on one of Dave's older videos, I think it was one of the fundi fridays, made me chuckle)

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 12:10:48 pm
content: You "guys" can debate the smallest point for pages on this forum. (shakes head)

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 12:12:49 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on November 12, 2013, 12:10:48 pmYou must be new to the internet.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 01:30:56 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 12, 2013, 11:31:06 amIf it helps your thinking process to anthropomorphise circuit elements or components, go for it!I myself find this helpful with circuits, formulas, functions, variables, code blocks, machines, test equipment, etc.One can always edit one's prose after the fact, or not worry about it at all if the audience is informal.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 02:19:23 pm
content: I used to reserve that for things I didn't understand or didn't care to understand: black boxes like sophisticated analog ICs sans schematic, proprietary libraries, test equipment firmware, Windows.... Anything that might as well be acting on a whim. Pretty soon it moved to things I was "done" understanding: once I have established how a circuit will perform as an isolated unit, it is sometimes easier to section it off as a black box even if I do know what it does: op amps "try" to maintain their inputs equal, etc. Really helps with high level system design to first prove that a circuit can act as a simple input->output system as designed, then assume it does.I think what I am doing is more or less translating the intentions of the designer onto the object he designed. Seems very common in computing, which is where I was before I saw thelightelectrons!

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 06:37:25 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 12, 2013, 10:33:31 amThose people have legitimate complaints, like you know, actual oppression...

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 11:50:20 pm
content: If someone were complaining that you used the word 'he' as a generic address in your own writing I would understand if you were upset. Writing something of quality and value is hard enough without having to please people with an unrelated agenda. But if you are distressed by another author using the word 'she' I think you might have serious insecurity issues or you are just looking for something to whine about.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 02:50:37 am
content: Talking about a storm in a teacup. Sexism arises when one is talking about unfair discrimination, inappropriate innuendo, or stereotyping a specific gender. The use of "she" or "her" in text doesn't imply sexism. I've seen a lot of literature that used "he" or "him" quite extensively and nobody complained, so what is so different with the use of "she" or "her"? Who cares.Anyway, I think people should just focus more on scientific style writing when it comes to technical literature. Basically fall back on gender-neutral pronouns, such as:"After that, she can proceed to de-solder the component..." -> "After that, one can proceed to de-solder the component..."...and so forth. Unfortunately gender-neutral writing is hard and doesn't feel natural. Just another example of how cluster fucked the English language is.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 03:55:02 am
content: (a group of men, on a forum completely dominated by men, in a profession largely dominated by men, will discuss what should and shouldn't be considered sexist. Right.)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 03:55:15 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on November 13, 2013, 02:50:37 amWhere reasonable I would tend to go with an active or instructional style, for example:"After that, proceed to de-solder the component."Or"After that, you can proceed to de-solder the component."The pronoun "you" is at least gender-neutral. You can use it as much as you like without causing offence.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 03:59:44 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 13, 2013, 03:55:02 amOddly, that seems to happen mostly in EE and software.I was at a major engineering technical conference last week and a very large percentage of attendees were women, from undergraduates, doctoral students through to professors.At work a fair number of my colleagues are women too.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 06:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 13, 2013, 04:07:13 pmIgnorance? I'm not letting you get away with ridiculous comparison, that's all. Nice try though.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 01:16:16 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 12, 2013, 10:33:31 amWell, I really have no way out when you put it like that, do I?Quote from: IanB on November 13, 2013, 03:59:44 amWhen I came to college last year, I was pleasantly surprised to find I have a fair number of female classmates. Not only that, quite a few of them are attractive.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 01:55:08 am
content: When I was studying CS I had many classmates who were women. Not 50%... but "many". (No comment on their attractiveness, that seems a touch crass - but they were a hell of a lot more kind and polite than the men, who were mostly very stereotypical nerds...)In EE, granted, in a different school as well, I don't think I have one single female classmate. I do have a female TA. No female teachers in any of the solid, technical disciplines either.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 01:05:55 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 13, 2013, 10:34:35 pmOh please, that's the best you can do? Stop being so ridiculous.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 09:43:19 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on November 12, 2013, 01:30:56 pmTo be honest, the only time I call a circuit other than it, when she doesn't work.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 10:04:08 am
content: "After that, one can proceed to de-solder the component..."One can,if one is Her Majesty the Queen!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 10:27:50 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 16, 2013, 10:04:08 amThe old tart can solder?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 04:47:38 am
content: To be fair,I've never heard dear old Bess use the term "one",but it just sounds like something she would say!

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 12:54:05 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 17, 2013, 12:44:03 pmDisagreeing is not trolling. You want to debate? Then actually start debating.Links to a wikipedia page on women's rights? Not the best start.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2013, 02:19:45 pm
content: Let it go. You don't have to be right.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 02:46:44 pm
content: Wrt: royaltyKidding aside, using "we" (the non-royal one) is also a nice way to avoid gender-specific pronouns.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2014, 10:58:29 am
content: What this is about is feminism. Those people are super bitchy.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 01:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 02, 2014, 08:09:31 amLol, you guys are a bit harsh ^^'

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 04:13:34 pm
content: Just gonna throw a bit of white gas on this fire and say, I have yet to even meet a female engineer, though I've met dozens of male ones, so the use of he vs. she vs. s/he vs. whatever seems a bit moot. Before you address stupid shit like what pronouns to use, maybe you should focus on getting more women into the field in the first plane.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 11:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on May 02, 2014, 04:13:34 pmWomen are going to have to focus on getting into the field. That's individual choice not a group thing.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2014, 01:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 02, 2014, 08:09:31 amAre you a feminist? That's so cute.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 04:40:57 am
content: I guess pictures of topless peopleis not technical literature, but there is a technicality involved...I had to work with a member of the bra burning feminist militia some years ago. This one was a nasty piece of work, and most blokes steered well clear. Fortunately she was not in my department... I was in engineering, she was in finance. One day, at her desk I gave her a diskette and kindly asked her to copy a file off her PC for me. She snapped, "You put the diskette in! You think just because I am a woman I have to do your dirty work?" Needing the data urgently and not having time for an argument, I pushed the diskette into the drive and copied the data myself. About 3 weeks later I walked past the bra burner's desk and saw a poster with a picture of a topless male on the wall. I ordered her to remove it immediately, else I would lodge a complaint against her for sexual harassment for displaying a photo of a topless man. She had no alternative but to remove it. I gave back her own medicine. Justice had been served.There is no place for sexism of discrimination in the workplace. But reverse discrimination is as bad as discrimination. Race, religion, age or gender should have no bearing on peoples' ability to do work. Unfortunately in Australia, discrimination and prejudice against older Australians getting a job is rampant. Everyone knows it happens. It is hard to prove. But nothing is done about it. To make matters worse, the bastard government will be raising the pension age from 65 to 70. Good luck if you lose your job at 62. I know a woman who is over 60 and needs a job. She is well experienced in the insurance industry. But no one will hire her. She has been looking for over a year and has been to over 100 interviews. There is nothing wrong with her (she is quite friendly and competent), except her age.My guess is ageism is a global issue.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 04:59:26 am
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on May 02, 2014, 04:13:34 pmThat seems to vary with the industry. There are many women in chemical engineering these days, and civil and mechanical seem to have their share.I regularly read how women get treated badly by the males in the software and electronics fields, so maybe the lack of female engineers there is the fault of male chauvinists?

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 05:28:38 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 04, 2014, 04:59:26 amit also seems to be an interest thing.you'll find significantly more female grad students in chemistry over physics and chem eng over EE.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 09:27:44 am
content: probably at least 90% of the females in my EE course are doing a Biomed/EE double degree.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 01:05:54 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 04, 2014, 04:59:26 amThe lack of women in engineering has NOTHING to do with male chauvinism. I have never seen women engineers get treated badly anywhere in this country. How many women design and build circuits at home as a hobby? My guess is almost none. It is nothing to do with chauvinism.There are very few female electronics engineers here and the most of that few are born overseas. There are almost no Anglo-Australian women into electronics engineering. Almost no Aussie women studied electronics 35 years ago and there are almost none today. Why is this when women have equality, equal rights, and heaps of encouragement?I have never met an Australian Aborigine who is an electronics engineer. My guess is they don't exist. Zilch. Never seen one ever mentioned in any electronics magazines either. However there are Aboriginal mining engineers in the Pilbara. So why are there no Aborigines in electronics engineering? You tell me.More likely we have deep cultural problems here that no-one will admit to. Something is wrong when electronics engineering is skewed based upon gender and race. There should be as many women designing and building circuits as men, both professionally and at home as a hobby. And proportionally as many Aborigines doing electronics as the rest of us.The good news is a colleague is encouraging his 11 year old daughter in science and electronics. She is fascinated and loves wiring up kits and the like. Here knowledge in hardware and software is far beyond her classmates and she even leaves her teachers behind when it comes to technology. There is hope for the human race after all.

author: electrolux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 02:43:43 pm
content: I hate it.

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 01:24:33 pm
content: Why are you people too chicken to admit that the female brain simply cannot process the abstract concepts that are part of electronic engineering?They should be pregnant and in the kitchen!Running for cover!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 01:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 05, 2014, 12:15:58 pmYour graph is interesting. Not the same in Australia. In 1977, there was < 1% females starting my engineering degree (Communications/Electronics Engineering). A quarter of a century later, my son started a similar degree at the same uni. Guess what? Still < 1% females. I have never heard a plausible reason why, probably because the law here forbids people publishing such opinions if they are deemed sexist even though they might be completely true. Why women are attracted to software rather than hardware has nothing to do with the poor excuse of chauvinism.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 10:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 05, 2014, 12:13:42 pmThat is a feminist and a natural born leader of the movement.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 10:51:23 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 05, 2014, 12:12:28 pmHow about English? I'm not part of the hip hop generation.

author: denelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 12:30:06 am
content: Men and women are different. Equal but different.And that's a good thing.If women were to have the same interests and the same personalities as men, the world would be an awful place.Some professions will always be predominantly masculine and other predominantly feminine.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 01:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 06, 2014, 09:25:46 amNo it's not feminism or if it is its someone who doesn't understand it, it's like the idea that Everyman hates every women which is sexist in its own right, much of feminism is about making massive sweeping generalisations about men and masculinity (masculinity is not a bad thing like some feminists would argue) it's just like femininity.Here is a feminist I really like:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommershe is a true feminist arguing for true equality between men and women.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 01:41:18 pm
content: Tammy Bruce (Former board member of NOW) on reducing the damage of modern feminism.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 10:30:27 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 04, 2014, 04:59:26 amI doubt that, as most females who would consider electronics likely wouldn't have heard such stories. It just seems that naturally, through whatever social process, not as many girls are interested in electronics as boys.Less females in electronics would likely be a similar reason as to why you don't get many male nurses, or child care workers, or pick your female dominated field of choice.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 10:35:37 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 04, 2014, 01:05:54 pmIn an ideal utopian world, perhaps, and in which case you'd have to even it up for every other profession. But I don't actually see a "problem" with any such discrepancy of gender numbers provided that no one is ever dis-encouraged, dis-advantaged, or discriminated against because of their gender or race (or sexual orientation, or *insert any other minority thing* for that matter) in any field.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 10:37:53 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 05, 2014, 12:15:58 pmPerhaps they are just smarter and saw that market being over-saturated before the males did?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 10:51:26 am
content: I have seen this in action, when I was training. 2 women in the group, and they basically were bussed in in the morning from another place, spent class with us but were segregated, and were bussed out afterwards. No mingling with the rest of the group, based on orders from higher up. I was quite willing to talk, and treat them as equal, but we were actively discouraged from that by seniors. They were capable enough, but gave up in the face of the separate treatment. Me, I was in a room and welcomed all who came in wanting to share, so ended up with all the others who were not welcome elsewhere, as we basically all spoke English. Room with a built in sunroof, and good air circulation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 11:38:25 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on May 07, 2014, 10:51:26 amWhat the hell is this, the 17th century? (or a modern day hard core Islamic country, which is the same thing)

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 12:32:45 pm
content: In primary education in the US, women are the overwhelming majority. Men in that field tend to be presumed to be homosexual or possibly a latent pedophile.Now that I think about it, there were two male teachers I can recall that were suspended for inappropriate behavior around teen aged girls when I went to school. One of them I do recall being a little creepy.There was another time I remember a girl in my 5th grade class telling me a male substitute teacher's hand brushed against her rear end while walking down the hallway and she said as he walked away, he licked his finger.I suppose these stories don't help their cause much.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 12:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: denelec on May 06, 2014, 12:30:06 amWhy? Dare we say in print?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 12:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 07, 2014, 11:38:25 amMilitary, where sex is thought of as something that should not occur.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 12:54:08 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 07, 2014, 12:32:45 pmI think the lack of male primary school teachers contribute to boys not doing quit as well as girls later in life, I remember some male teachers being the most inspirational to me, due to the greater empathy they had with me. Or mabe I was just lucky

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 01:15:25 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 07, 2014, 11:38:25 amSouth Africa. Those guys are still fighting the Boer war.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 01:57:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 07, 2014, 10:30:27 amStrange though. In Austin where I worked in 92/93, I discovered that there was obviously higher percentage of women in electronics than there is in Australia. Silicon Valley, Research Triangle Park and Austin are the biggest tech hubs in the US, and it was considered normal for women to be in electronics design, manufacturing, chip design or programming in those places. The electronics social culture in Texas is outstanding. There is a far greater percentage of female ham radio operators in Texas than in Australia. I think cultural issues has a lot to say for the lack of females who can handle electronics here.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 02:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 07, 2014, 12:47:51 pmBecause man and woman brain is wired differently. Even the sizes differ, the functions differ, and they are bombarded constantly with different hormones. And there is nothing wrong with this.Man is less caring, less empathic, so there are less man teacher and nurse. They also usually don't give birth, at least I was told. Woman are not that good with logic and math, so there are less woman in engineering. And this is not bs, these are scientific facts, probably the result of the evolution. There are exceptions of course (Arnold schwarzenegger, Junior. And I'm sorry that I can speak freely and hurt all those people from the "church of equality".

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2014, 03:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 07, 2014, 12:47:51 pmMale dancers for example. Most women are bad fit for the job.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 12:03:15 am
content: The feminist movement is run by a bunch of women who really don't like being women. Most women who fall for the bull from these bitter people are still going to here the tic tic tic... then all the sister in the struggle stuff goes right out the window.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 12:17:36 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 07, 2014, 12:30:46 pmWhat do you think is the reason then?Surely you don't think it's because women get a hard time in the industry and "word has gotten around" so they are now all abandoning it?QuoteIt's not just that, it is also because through evolution men and women have been wired differently. And this ultimately must manifest itself in some way in the overall career figures. Add in society, perceptions etc, and there is your overall answer.QuoteAnyone male who passionately wants to be in those professions can be, and there is nothing stopping them.QuoteI don't disagree.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 10:53:55 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 07, 2014, 02:50:13 pmI agree, being one of those exceptions myself.It's unfortunate there isn't more balance, but if they just don't have the ability to...

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 12:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 07, 2014, 02:50:13 pmMan, you have guts. In this country, say that in the workplace of a large company and you would risk be reported, despite the probability of it being true. There is too much political correctnessin Australia.I once worked with a female engineer who was very smart and became one of the best project engineers ever. She got things done and never missed a beat. But as dumb of dog**** when it came to practical things. I remember her trying to turn a heat-sink on TO-5 case and saying, "the pot is stuck". She was put in charge of a HP 3065. Her solution to fixing test failures was to remove the test! He electronics knowledge was dreadful. I suggest it was not her gender so much, but a poor upbringing when it came to doing practical things. Parents in Australia by and large gave Lego blocks to their sons and dolls to their daughters in years gone by, hence the girls did not learn much about logic and maintaining cars.Ironically, Lego blocks are designed by all women in Denmark. So I suggest it is a cultural problem, as well as genetic.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 01:16:15 pm
content: http://news.sciencemag.org/math/2014/03/both-genders-think-women-are-bad-basic-math

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 01:26:17 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 08, 2014, 10:41:33 amI'm not saying these aren't issues, but they aren't the only issues. Even if society was completely equal, with no discrimination, no sexism, no bullying, equal encouragement to try and balance the numbers etc, you'd still have the fact that men and women have evolved differently, and therefore on average you are always going to end up with certain male and female dominated industries.That is why I think any industry which tries to artificially prop up male or female numbers because of some perceived inequality is ultimately not going to succeed. Just try and stamp out any sexism and bullying that is left, promote those who are success stories more, and provide equal opportunity for all and leave it at that. If the numbers are unequal, so be it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 01:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 08, 2014, 10:41:33 amYou showed data that said there are now less women engineering graduates than before.Are you therefore claiming that "the culture" of engineering universities used to be unfavorable to women (that's a given back in the early days) and then became more favorable, hence the increase in numbers, and has now become less favorable again, hence the decrease in numbers?If so, I don't buy it. I'd wager that the culture has only gotten better. So I think there is something else at play with those numbers.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 01:43:35 pm
content: I once had this copy of Bernard Grob'sBasic Televisionhanded down to me by an elderly college. This guy was a bit "old school" and had rigid ideas of a woman's position in society and how she should present/conduct herself. Short hair, for example, was unfeminine and offensive, as that indicated lesbianism, which isalmostas reprehensible as poofterism.He modified this offending page of the book accordingly:Incidentally, he also didn't like Americanisms. For example, the workKinescope, rather thancathode ray tube. Now never mind that the book was an American publication - it's still not right to sell it down here with such foul words uncensored, in addition to the picture of the lesbian. So he simply did what was logical, sensible and right, diligently striking out each instance of the offending word as he came across it!So, there you have an insight to the mind of a militant anti-feminist!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 02:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: GK on May 08, 2014, 01:43:35 pmOh my god, that's hilarious.What an odd man.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 02:25:26 pm
content: Did you ever ask the guy why girls who look a little like guys (from his perspective) bothered him so much?I suppose he'd say he found it "confusing".I'm just saying, the man might have lived in a private hell ^^'

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 04:29:47 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 08, 2014, 03:17:05 pmHow do we know more want to be engineers and how do we know they're put off (i.e. demotivated by others and not the subject itself and own preferences)? Do you have any data?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 05:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 08, 2014, 03:14:03 pmI remember high school. There were more girls than boys in the school. At some point, at around 7th grade (~12 year old) you could chose which path you want to pursue. You could chose math, physics, literature, art, biology, etc.. and from that moment you had more classes of that subject, and the group learned separately. I chose math and physics. There were 90%+ male dominance at math an 100% male physics group. Later at university, 5% of the EE students were woman(at start. finish was 2-3%).After this, guess what happened. I had more classes at math, and I become better at it compared to the people who had more literature. Even if we had exactly the same capabilities to learn math, I was better because I CHOUSED to learn more math.There are exceptions, if you feel you are one, good for you. I'm not anti feminist. Mans are not better, they are different, probably there are pictures on the internet explaining the difference.It would be nice if the equality would finally include, that I could also say facts, and not get labels from other people.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 06:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 08, 2014, 03:17:05 pmSo if there is no end goal, why do we care that women are making the choice to not go into engineering? Why are we 'fetishising' the idea of attracting women to a field that has never before been heavily subscribed by women in any point in recorded history? What is the problem with women making the decision to not go into engineering? It seems like there is now this idea that true equality for women is for women to literally become men.Sounds like you buy into the idea that it's not about being 50/50, but in practice, it actually is about it being 50/50. Just like the 'idea' of feminism as a whole is to achieve equality, but in practice...well...let's not go there. Maybe I've not seen the good side...yet.On the subject of teaching, I'm male, and I've worked in schools. I don't do it anymore because it's stressful and kids are difficult. Not because I felt like everyone viewed me as a paedophile or some other nonsense. Why is it so hard to believe that women simply don'twantto go into engineering, just like I don't want to get into teaching?I mean, sure it's got to be true that some people do have sexist views of women. But at the same time, I don't think they're anywhere near prevalent enough to be such a significant factor as certain people like to make out.The problem is, whether you think it's the people on the course, or the upbringing of the woman, or whatever other factors you think might be at work that is dissuading women from getting into engineering, what you're doing is imposing an end goal onto them, because it's something that you think is worthwhile, not giving any thought to what women actually want to be doing. The idea that feminism brought of the career woman who is basically superwoman in a suit is obviously aspirational, but it's an end goal thought up by a group of people trying to dictate a path to others.At the end of the day, true equality is about choice, and women have the choice of going into engineering, or doing something else. So what else is there really to do? A fancy-pants advertising campaign with a catchy play on words? Seen a few of them lately. Or maybe a quota for course intakes. But then you're just trying to achieve the quota rather than finding talented people, and you're going to leave some talented people aside for the sake of political correctness. Maybe the old idea (or not so old if you look around a bit) of just blaming it on men?There are more women in university than there are men. Why do certain people care that they chose the "wrong" course? They're there, aren't they? And they make up the majority.So at the end of the day, an open question is needed: what should we do to solve the problem that is perceived by some certain people to exist, that literally prevents women entering engineering no matter how driven the women are to succeed in the field? All suggestions welcome...I wasn't going to get involved in this thread again, lest my "misogyny" become overbearing. Alas, here we are. I guess I couldn't help myself.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 11:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 08, 2014, 10:13:09 pmOn a side note: Blaming someone else using the straw man, in a post like this... Well that is something. And we want 50% straw woman also. Take it as a joke, I'm not serious

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 08, 2014, 02:25:26 pmNo, he was just a tad loopy.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:11:33 pm
content: QuoteI was at MIT recently and was told that the student body is 55% girls - I was surprised by that.To my eyes, there are indeed lots of girls on the campus, on par with Harvard, I would guess.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:12:34 pm
content: QuoteSuch a sensible / brainy thinking would be too much for our politicians and too timid for their fund raising too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:33:48 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on May 08, 2014, 04:29:47 pmYes, I'd like to see some evidence for that.I don't doubt that it happens, but I do doubt that it's a hugely significant number.I suspect more women would be put off by the simple fact that they don't see many women in engineering, or some other general stereotype they may have, rather than any real discrimination or sexist etc.Personally I don't know, nor have heard of any females who wanted to get into engineering, or did get into engineering, and then quit because they got a hard time, or didn't bother because they "heard stories" about how bad it was, or were discouraged from doing so by the community etc.IIRC Jeri Ellsworth on the Amp Hour told a story about how she was given a hard time at some jobs because as she put it, she was a she.Well, I suspect it could also have included some aspects of the lack of qualifications, and/or just a general personal conflict mixed in there as well. It might not have just been about sexism.Almost anybody can get discriminated against in any job. In my engineering jobs I've seen sexism, racism, qualificationism, ageism, healthism (overweight people), smokeism, clothingism, attitudeism, and probably more, all usually in quite small amounts though. The vast majority of the time people are ranked on their performance and general likeability.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 08, 2014, 10:13:09 pmYou've given no evidence of this "push-back". You have shown some numbers have dropped, but you seem to be just assuming it's "push back" or renewed sexism of some sort. I find that unlikely. As once society heads in general direction toward equality, it usually doesn't fall back into inequality.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 08, 2014, 10:13:09 pmAnd you think we have gone downhill somehow since the 80's and 90's?

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:41:50 pm
content: One aside: people living in places like Oceania, some counties in Western and Northern Europe and North America have a HUGELY distorted view when it comes to equality and political correctness.Go somewhere where there aren't nice authorities that will protect you from the badguys.Go to Japan, or East Africa, Persia or any number of places that are significantly different in culture and you will *laugh* your face off at how over-freaking sensitive we all are in our little bubble, and how people in some of the most progressive, tolerant and fair societies feel that somehow there's still this massive war to fight against unfairness.Surely I'm not saying we should all rest on our laurels, I'm saying there are places in the world that will make one laugh at oneself for taking some of these issues a bit too gravely.It's not 1950 any more and the world is a much tougher, crueler and unfair place than most of us can imagine because we're nicely protected inside our nice safe bubbles.If I take flak for this, then I do, but I'd say that in most places where members of the eevblog live, if there's a gender inequality problem, it's up to that gender to take action to solve it.Neither gender can be considered a minority, and where most of us live, noone is able to stop anyone else from becoming who they want to be. Don't make it someone else's responsibility to put you in the place you want to go, don't define yourself as a "victim of society's: <insert complaint>", that can turn a proactive, problem solver into an armchair complainer who puts the responsibility for their lack of achievement on any other shoulders than theirs.Some food for thought:A greedy evil, cigar smoking, mustache twirling, womanising, baby killing chauvinist CEO (who despite their vile evilness is intelligent) has two potential candidates to run their new research and development department.One candidate is a woman who has a PhD in mathematics from Cambridge, an engineering degree from MIT and has a proven track record of leading development teams in creating top-selling products.The other is also educated, has a BASc from Harvard, plays excellent golf, but has a track record of missing important deliverables and acting irresponsibly.Which does the evil villain hire to service their overwhelming greed and evil?Also, if he chooses the woman, and she doesn't want to work for President Evil, will someone put a gun to her head and force her to? Will this woman be unable to find an employer (assuming she wishes to work for someone else) who isn't like President Evil[edit: grammar]

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 09:54:14 pm
content: QuoteI support equality of opportunities, not equality of outcome. I believe firmly in the notion of competitive advantage: men and women ARE different and there are things in which women excel and vice versa. As a society, we should provide equal opportunities to girls and boys so they can pick whatever careers they desire.Whether there are more women or men in a given career is of no importance.Discrimination on one's gender is wrong. Insisting on equal outcome is a form of discrimination.QuoteWhy waste your brain cells on such hypotheticals.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 11:28:56 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 09, 2014, 03:41:50 pmThat's a trick question.He doesn't interview women in the first place!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 11:35:31 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 09, 2014, 10:22:22 pmWhy?The planet it pretty overpopulated as it is.That thinking belongs to governments who run countries like a business that must show continual growth, it's ridiculous.I would fully support anyone who chooses not to have kids.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 02:02:00 am
content: Of the women I work with only one or two are wanting to learn at all. Most of the others are nowhere to be seen when something needs to be fixed. They are good however at pointing out the gender neutral term for their position. If you need someone to stand around looking all official and stuff while playing the boss we have a few of those too. lately I just tell the worst offender that she can just go get her little tool box and fix it herself.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 02:14:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2014, 11:35:31 pmThe Earth does not have a population problem. What we have a problem with is a lot of petty dictatorships playing games with peoples lives. Every country on Earth is aborting babies all over the place. Warlords in suits in Africa starve the population and bank the money they receive. You don't want continued growth then the last thing we need is engineers. So ladies don't become engineers.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 03:31:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2014, 02:33:48 pmSmokeism? Should be more of it because smokers impact negatively on others. I have no problems discriminating against smokers whose breath stinks like dog manure or their clothes reek in the office. I have seen these drug addicts steal from their employer by going outside every half hour to have a smoke in the company time they are paid for. Don't want them around.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 06:24:28 am
content: Quote"I know: let's make everyone chose their life's path during puberty! I'm sure that's when they're best able to make that sort of decision!"(although this decision point doesn't happen in the US till end of HS, ~18y.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 07:25:43 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 09, 2014, 10:11:19 pmI have only just started reading that, but one thing struck me immediately:QuoteRight there I have a question that need answering before that data should be taken as meaningful:1) Did the 11% figure include the entire industry? If so then you are factoring in a huge percentage of time when the field was male dominated.2) If the 11% figure only includes the recent graduates after they enter the workforce, then I'd say it's not too dissimilar to males.i.e. 50% of women engineering graduates end up in engineering. But based on my experience, the number if not too dissimilar to men. Why? because many people do the degree but go into other fields, or had little interest in going into engineering to begin with.When I when I studied engineering it seems that only a small proportion of students seems to care about the industry at all. They were there because they got the marks and needed to do something at university etc. Or their friends did it, or their parents pushed them or whatever.Then on the next page:QuoteWell, crikey, which reason is it?One reason has nothing to do with sexism, and the other does, so what value is the sexism part? For all we know it could be very small.This report is flawed right there.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 07:32:11 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 10, 2014, 03:31:06 amI hate smoking, with a passion, and it has played a part in my recruiting process. But I have knowingly hired a smoker once because ultimately I liked their attitude and they were a good fit for the job, so that outweighed the negative in that case.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 07:33:59 am
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on May 10, 2014, 02:14:05 amReally?Ok, take the current population and then bringeveryoneup to yours and my standard of living, as I think they should be entitled too. See how the planet copes then.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 07:36:24 am
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on May 10, 2014, 02:14:05 amYou get absolutely no say over that, ever. It is the choice of the couple involved, it's none of your business, the end.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 08:39:22 am
content: Quote from: westfw on May 10, 2014, 06:24:28 amWell I guess you also didn't had the problem to chose a second language to start learning when you were 10, and a third when you were 12. Yes, you read it right, you had to, it was not optional. Maybe we shouldnt compare US education system to others because they are different.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 09:24:30 am
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on May 10, 2014, 02:14:05 amThe Earth does have a population, and it's spelled resources, not land area. Sure, you could theoretically spread people out across the Earth and give everyone their x acres of land, but that's hardly realistic. And to make things worse, it's typically people in the poorest, most arid countries, that insist on plopping out babies to secure their future. In the rish parts of the world, the population growth is declining, and some times even entering a population decline.And I'm curious about your comment "Every country on Earth is aborting babies all over the place." I suspect you are one of those religious folk who secretly (or openly) believe that abortion being legal, means there's an institutionalized genocide going on. Or, you might just have talked about places like China. Feel free to prove me wrong on that point.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 09:32:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 10, 2014, 07:36:24 amThank you, Dave. If you hadn't said that, I would!Btw., I don't think it's an overpopulation problem but rather a priority and.. I'd say we have the means to give everyone a good life, we just rather have a new smartphone or a yacht or two. But that's offtopic.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 09:37:27 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 10, 2014, 08:39:22 amAnd learning languages is a bad thing because?That doesn't change your path in life unless you are talking about programming languagesYeah, Europe is a bit weird, in HS you gotta choose between science or arts, in HS, but that's not at age 12.@westfw, As for choosing your life during puberty, when do you want to make a decision?As for education and comparing the US education to others, well, the education is here for who wants to do it, at least the attitude is different. In Europe it used to be (might still be) that chances were that it didn't matter since it's hard to get to the University because of quotas. So teachers kind of had an attitude if you didn't excel. For those who made it, it's still grim because you can't find a job and you end up working in things not related to your studies because the positions are filled. If you end up working on your field, you make half of your counterpart in the US. And if you happen to be a woman (both in Europe and the US) then expect to be paid even less than your male counterparts.I have a cousin in Germany and she is an architect, she did ask for a raise and her boss told her, and I'm not kidding, "But I thought your husband makes good money, why do you need a raise?"In the US pre-college education is way too frivolous, but the Universities are more accessible and of a higher education, so I agree, let's don't compare the US education system to others. Then again, most people in the US don't try to cheat on taxes, Europe well.. let's say it's different. I mean the IVA, VAT, etc is because the countries couldn't collect enough taxes. A lot of people were paid under the table, etc... Not sure if that is the case anymore. Not saying that doesn't happen in the US, but at a lesser degree. But the taxes help on building Universities.Back to the topic, one thing that strikes me is that from the get go, I did seek part time jobs in programming while my female counterparts worked in restaurants and bars while going to college. So when I had to look for a job I was stuck to my trade and had to wait longer to get a job, but they tended to go back to the bars and restaurants because they had that as a fall back in order to get a job quick.There are many degrees of grey in why things happen the way they do.My best bosses have been female, starting with my mother. Speaking of female bosses, I was involved on some research with Japan, and my boss (female) and I went to many meetings. It was surreal, she will say something and those guys will answer to me. Maybe is a cultural thing and they didn't mean to disrespect her, but it made me very uncomfortable and guilty to be male. She was cool with it because she "understood" the ways things were.I only know one female friend that makes the same as her male counterparts, the rest do get pay way less.So, yeah, the system is way broken. And as far as Engineering in general. well we are pretty brutal with each other, sometimes jokingly sometimes not and being males we just brush it off and call you an asshole. Women can do that too, but they don't get as bitter as we do until a later time so I blame the parents for that, girls have to be sweet and boys will do what boys do.So if you are male and you remember when you were sweet, the smallest critique will make you leave the room in tears, but at a way earlier age, but since it happens to males more often we learn to be bitter then that turns into an oh well, so I did screw up, screw you! attitude.So parents, treat your daughters like your sons, not fair to pay full tuition to the males and make the females work for an education (happens often) Then again parents tend to think that well, she will get married so let's make sure the sons have a chance competing because we can't pay for all of them. (specially at the prices nowadays)Yup, it's beyond broken. And there are more chances to have peace in the middle east than this getting solved.I was raised in what it was considered at one time a matriarchal society but that's long gone, I mean the daughter inherited the farm, not anymore for many centuries. But all the world is like that in a sense.Think about this, if you have to ask for advice, would you go to your mother or your father? regardless if you are a boy or a girl.Edit: One more thing. My wife has told me on numerous occasions that if I was on a situation that I had to choose saving her or the kids, to save the kids. I never asked what she will do if she was the one making the choice because I know she will save the kids before me, and that's what Moms Do!Edit again: And don't forget you US males! this weekend is Mother's day, call them! take them out! and all that jazz.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 11:14:26 am
content: QuoteI have ran teams large (over 50 individuals) and small (just a few individuals). I can honestly say that not in one instance I said "that person should be paid less because she is a female", and I know of no incidents, personally, like that.I have said, in multiple occasions, that "that person isn't as dedicated to his/her job because s/he often left early, declined to travel often, or didn't want to work overtime, ...". It is on those measurements that women tend to trail men, for cultural or sociological reasons. Women are disproportionately impacted by those measurements, but they are held to the same measurements.That's not to say that there aren't aggressive women or hardworking women. Just that some of them have made a conscious decision about their lives and have different priorities. The "disparate impact", as DoJ lawyers tend to call it, is fair as long as the same measurements are applied to both genders and have rational business reasons behind them.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 01:30:28 pm
content: I remember a few years ago on Rage (an MTV show that runs throughout every Saturday night here in Melbourne) there was a retro segment from 1972 with a reporter interviewing a model aged probably around 20. He asked to her in all seriousness,"What are your plans once you find yourself a husband?"How times have changed. Ask that today, and you be branded as a rude narrow minded sexist.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 02:10:16 pm
content: I think it was Mahatma Gandhi who said: "be the change you want to see in the world."I've always found this difficult and humbling; I don't think anyone is pleased about oppression when they can see it clearly.These issues are so complex that I think all one can do is try to be fair and hope everyone else is trying too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 02:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 11, 2014, 02:54:55 pmI don't doubt it. But that has little to do with the global population and sustainability of this planet. You can't use one country with a local problem and <2% of the world's population as an argument here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 02:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 11, 2014, 03:02:10 pmIt's all to do with the percentage!That determines whether it's a genuinely serious issue or it has just been blown out of proportion.Yes, the number should be zero, but this isn't a perfect world.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 02:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 10, 2014, 09:37:27 amNothing wrong with it. But, it can have the biggest impact on your life. The country I was born has some serious issues (well, at least it is not communist anymore). 50% of the population below 30 years old wants to leave the country, and live abroad. Not everyone makes it, but 17% of the said age already did (!).The choice, which language you learned first or at all, makes a huge impact. If you started with german, chances are you end up in Germany, Austria (not Australia) or Switzerland. If you start with english...Well I ended up in Belgium, without speaking any of the local language.Sorry for derailing the thread.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 07:05:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 10, 2014, 07:33:59 amDo you think people who don't work as hard as you do should have your standard of living given to them?I don't think anyone's entitled to anything. I find it very wrong when some people who choose not to work have higher standard of living than some people who work very hard.Governments would rather spend money on people who can work and don't want to than people who want to work but can't find a job.One of the other things that is big in the US now is raising the minimum wage. The argument is "People can't live on the current minimum wage" Well if two adults with kids both are full time employed at the minimum wage, then they are several thousand dollars per year above the poverty line. The majority people who are below the poverty line are the unemployed, not the underpaid.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 07:31:51 am
content: Yup, it's US then themEvery other country sure don't work hardAnd I'm not sure where you've been on the last 5 years, it's been brutal even among US.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 07:41:58 am
content: In general, help those who can't not those who won't.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 09:30:29 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 13, 2014, 07:05:10 amThe earth does not have population problem, it has a consumption problem.We are a species killing its host. Now the communist Chinese are getting wealthier, they are consuming more. Problem is there are so many of them, it is putting a strain of resources and creating rampant pollution. However, the communists say and rightly so that consumers in the west have no right to tell them they have to live in poverty. We set no example.The world needs to stop rampant car manufacturing, learn to fix items rather than throwing them away, stop buying so many clothes and get back on the bicycle. When we see so many commuting cars with only one person in them, so many large 4WD's purchased to save face, people building bigger houses to store more rubbish in them, so many fat people around, there is something very wrong. Governments around the world should forcefully limit consumption. That means the rich and greedy should be controlled as well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 09:33:27 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 13, 2014, 08:47:52 amNo, it's not. Back to my original post - not if everyone has the same lifestyle that you and I enjoy. And I would argue that every on earth should have the same standard of living as we enjoy, or at least a decent one.http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/3_times_sustainableQuote

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 10:28:52 am
content: QuoteWhy? What entitled them to that?

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:23:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2014, 09:33:27 amEquality will never happen. It is a dream and a lie. Most of the worlds's population live under corrupt governments that give persons of wealth more privilege and more opportunity to pocket more loot than their fair share. These countries are run by the rich for the rich. Some preach the lie of communism to control the masses. Others preach lies that they are democratic, but know it is the rich who have the loudest voice.An indiscriminate virus that wipes out most of the world's population is the fairest way to resolve the world's overpopulation problem. Irrespective of race, wealth or status.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:28:17 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 13, 2014, 10:50:57 amTotally agree.But something like 80% of the worlds population live below the poverty line. Not to forget that staggering numbers of them die because of the lack of modern living standards we take for granted, and that's the only thing giving our planet the current appearance of being sustainable if you look at it optimistically.Even factoring in the best efficiencies we can practically hope for, and even if it's applied globally, ifevery personon the planet came up to what we call a decent standard of living then the planet would be totally unsustainable without a doubt, likely several times over as many studies claim. Factoring in those people suddenly having medical care like we do means that very few of them die any more, and bam, you have a population crisis on top of that already unsustainable number, because that's the elephant in the room.But my ideal of every person on the plant having the same standard of living as we take for granted is as unrealistic as your ideal of better efficiency and everybody living more frugally and sustainable.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:50:28 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 13, 2014, 11:23:21 amAs mentioned in my above post, yes, it's an unobtainable ideal in practice.But the percentage of the world population that has a first world standard of living increases every year, that continued trend seems unstoppable. So the burden on our planet continues to grow every year, not just through population growth in itself, but the increasing strain of each human as they reach that first world standard of living.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:51:21 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 13, 2014, 10:51:48 amI was not going to dignify dannyf's question with a response, but

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 12:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 13, 2014, 11:23:21 amFreedom and liberty are some of the first things lost when equality is enforced.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 12:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 13, 2014, 12:43:03 pmI never said nor implied total equally. I was talking about the ideal of bringing everyone up to at least a basic standard of living we take for granted. You know, that stuff real rich people have - like clean water, sewage, electricity, housing, adequate food, medical, basic education etc.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 12:55:35 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 13, 2014, 12:51:53 pmNo, but the vast majority do!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 01:25:52 pm
content: QuoteBingo!It is said that Piketty's book outsells "Animal Farm".Advocating for the poor is a quick way to get rich.They don't mind that the poor get pooer, as long as the rich are less richer.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 01:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 13, 2014, 12:43:03 pmFreedom is not being enslaved or imprisoned. Freedom is lost when there is inequality. Most people don't know what freedom is; especially those who think they have it.Those workers in the US who lost their jobs and then their houses after the GFC, whilst the rich were being rewarded with bailout money, don't know freedom. Those financially destitute workers who have no jobs whilst the super rich have gotten a lot richer in the last 5 years, don't know freedom. People who have to live in fear of some social misfit shooting little children kids in a primary school are not free either. Having 1% of your population in jail is definitely not freedom.As far as speech goes, the American do have free speech to some extent. But more free speech is you are rich enough to lobby Congress, or own the media. No one listens to a poor man.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 01:48:20 pm
content: QuoteWhat is freedom then?

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 05:19:53 pm
content: What a heated debate. I want to ask, how many people talking about third world and oppressed countries have actually been to them and lived there?(And I'm not talking about landing and hiding out in a tourist hotel to be bussed to outtings; it's a great way to see some natural wonders, but will give you the wrong idea).I only mention this because I consistently encounter people who believe they know what's up with these places, but have zero idea of what these places are truly like; watching a documentary or reading websites will not give you remotely the right idea.You can't know until you've been, and honestly, once you've been, you'll be unable to properly describe what things are *really* like to anyone else; they always get the wrong idea because the pictures in their heads come from television, heated debates in lecture halls, or reading studies second-hand.I would say that the majority of poverty is due to tyrannical governments with absolute power, and these governments are SUPPORTED by nations like the USA and China, they are called "democratic" when they are not, and in exchange for this, American and Chinese interests (among others) have carte blanche to move in and pillage the county's natural resources.I've seen this with my own eyes...The effect of the tyranny is that there is virtually no infrastructure (education, clean water, road repair, parks departments) for the people, because there doesn't need to be, all parties with power are getting what they want, and WE are directly benefitting from this setup.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 08:29:46 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 13, 2014, 05:19:53 pmIt's the old blame-america-first routine. A very common narrative by the lefties. Let me guess, those third world countries were flourishing democracies before the US got involved.Take real examples like Italy, Germany and Japan. The US set a democratic regimes and let them go free just as it did in Iraq. It's not the US, it's the political culture of those countries.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:15:51 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on May 13, 2014, 08:29:46 pmThe examples you give are substantially pre Cold War,although the onset of that conflict allowed some War Criminals to escape justice.(Who cares if they are Psychopaths?,They'reourPsychopaths!)During the Cold War period,the USA & the old USSR supported some pretty horrific Governments,including,on the USA side,Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq,&,on the USSR side,that of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya.Of course,the UK & France also got into the act,"white-anting" popular democratic Governments who didn't think giving away their resources for a pittance was a good thing,& in some cases,actively being involved in their overthrow.It was a fine time for Dictators,though,all they needed was to pretend to "tilt" towards one Bloc,for the other one to be there offering all sorts of inducements.All those high tech weapons came in very handy for suppressing internal opposition,too!The USSR even helped the Argentinian Junta in the Falklands/Malvinas War with satellite intelligence.This,at a time when the Junta was murdering Democrats,Socialists,& Communists in their hundreds.Of course,the PRC was there,too,supporting one of the most evil regimes of modern times in the form of the Khmer Rouge---they make North Korea look like a holiday camp!Poor old Saddam didn't realise the game had changed when he invaded Kuwait iprior to the the 1993 war.The USSR just sat back & didn't interfere when Desert Storm erupted.People talk a lot of crap about the 2003 Iraq War-----If Dubya had wanted Iraq's oil,he could have made a separate agreement with Saddam to take all the oil they could produce,& broken the back of OPEC at the same time.George was never that devious a man,though!----I'm sure Richard Nixon in a similar position,would have thought about it!Of course,the biggest mistake was in thinking "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"!All sorts of "spivs" were waiting in the wings to take over in Iraq,whilst the "Heroic Mujihadeen" who fought the USSR in Afghanistan quickly morphed into the Taliban!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:59:10 pm
content: QuoteNot a bad strategy if you are going to start a war.QuoteThe left never understood that war.QuoteThe neocons and the taliban, two diametrically opposing groups, are fundamentally the same: they want to impose their value-system onto others. In the case of Neocon, they believed that democracy is good for the people they are trying to "liberate", no matter if they want democracy or not; The Taliban thinks the same: they think that fundamental Islam is good for the people, regardless if the people like it or not.Neither group truly understood what democracy is, or what freedom is. The taliban is illiterately ignorant; The neocons are literally ignorant.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 12:23:53 am
content: Quote from: zapta on May 13, 2014, 08:29:46 pmActually, I'm not talking about the Middle-East.I also think it's naive to think of people in terms of left or right.Personally, I see nothing wrong with trying to be socially responsible, we are a social species and we share a finite planet.QuoteI've been to Japan, but not Germany. What qualifies as a real example for you? I was thinking of East Africa, and my experience there taught me that, like with many things, nothing beats first-hand experience, if you have some of this to share, it's an opportunity to learn more.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 12:45:44 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 13, 2014, 11:15:51 pmInteresting, in your long rant you blame everybody except for the locals that keep killing and oppressing each other. This is very typical for the left, they stick to their successful-bad-unsuccessful-good narrative while ignoring facts and misplacing the blame.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 02:12:23 am
content: Quote from: zapta on May 14, 2014, 12:45:44 amLeft,my bum!!The "Right" obviously have a problem with comprehension!Right throughout my "rant" the common theme was that of local Totalitarian regimes playing the Major Powers off against each other.Many of these countries did have politically moderate people in charge at times.The West,or the USSR did not think these Governments were in concert with their plans,so theyhelpedDictators into power.This doesnotmean that the Dictators would not have attained power in some other way,just that they knew how to work the system.The Major Powers can't get away "scot-free",though,as their interference facilitated the rise of these people,often for some fleeting.or purely imagined,advantage.There was little or no coherence in the approaches by the Major Powers over the years,whereas all the Dictators needed to do was concentrate on staying in power.During the years leading up to WW2,Dictatorships were common in Europe,as was oppression.Did the people of those countries all "oppress each other"as part of their culture?Did the people of the USSR?No,they were oppressed by Totalitarian Governments,who gained power by violence,chicanery and lies,plus in some cases,help from Foreign Powers.Such help was much less likely to come from the USA than from the European Powers in those days.In fact,the USA was a promoter of Democratic Governments in the very early Post war years.It has now returned,although in a muddled sort of way,to the spirit,if not always the practice of that policy.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 07:43:17 pm
content: vk6zgo, you can bring the donkey to the water but you cannot force it to drink. Some cultures are incompatible with democracy and plurality and it does not help if somebody takes their dictator down, they will keep killing each other and will form of authoritarian government (e.g. see the recent example in Egypt). It's up the locals to establish a lawful and tolerant society but the left typically rush to blame the US.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 06:43:09 am
content: Quote from: zapta on May 14, 2014, 07:43:17 pmThere is nothing inherent in Egypt's culture that causes this behaviour,but over 50 years of Dictatorship does leave its mark.We were fed the same line about Indonesia & the Philippines,but they eventually found their way back to a Democratic form ofGovernment------sometimes a flawed version,but a long way from a Dictatorship!The "left" is a very broad section of society in any country.Of course,you have the "Conspiracy nuts" who see the hand of the CIA or NSA in everything that happens,but most of us know that very few have anything directly to do with the USA.The "right" have the same sort of people,(Especially in the USA) who are sure it's all the fault of the "liberals",but many are sensible normal people.The point we need to make to Americans is,"It's not all about you!"People in other countries do nasty things to each other,& Foreign Nations connive with dictators,whether the USA is involved or not,& by and large,they don't care if you approve or disapprove!If they can manipulate you,that's an added bonus.The dear old "People's Republic" have their fingers in quite a few messy pies throughout the world,but it suits the "left" & "right" in most countries to ignore this,as Chinese trade is so important.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 02:36:36 pm
content: Communism meets extreme capitalism at the lowest common denominator - money, power and privilege in the hands of a few.A good documentary to watch or book to read is Robert Reich's "Inequality For All". It highlights how having large wealth in the hands of the greedy few is the reason for the economic woes such as the GFC.A billionaire only needs 4 pairs of jeans. If that obscene wealth was shared among 10,000 people, you would need 40,000 pairs of jeans.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 02:46:53 pm
content: QuoteI hope those advocates of equality should start taking actions on their own, rather than telling us to cure inequality for them. Warren, Reich and Piketty are a good starting point,QuoteAnd anyone should have no more than 1 DT830 meter; Or no more than 1hr of internet connection per month; Or 10 square meters of dwelling space; Or $2 income per day; ...Comparing to those poor folks in Africa or Asia or Amazon, ..., 99.999999% of the population are effectively "billionaires" and top 0.001%.Let's start bring down inequality there.Those crazy talks of "inequality" have one goal: to make everyone poor. Look at Europe, America over the last 200 years, and Russia / China over the last 30 years. Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than anything in human history. Yes, it is not perfect. But it has been very effective.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 05:26:28 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 16, 2014, 02:46:53 pm+1I definitely agree that for anyone on this planet for whom life has many disadvantages, it's up to that individual to do something about it.In my limited experience in the third world, I've seen a majority people fall into a few groups (this is in an area not currently in crises due to disease or water-shortage), one that learned helplessness and just do the minimum required to exist in their current situation. One that consists mainly of women looking to become the wife or mistress of a foreigner (I don't mean to enrage anyone, I think this causes these people to devalue themselves). And one group that hustles, either by the very definition of the word or by working hard to rise in their jobs and provide their children with a proper education (which costs a LOT for these people vs their income).Of the three groups, the last group worked the hardest, BUT, they were general much friendlier and happy and almost never exhibited racist behaviour (in East Africa, it's white people, chinese and indians who are the "out group").The other groups generally had a more sour demeanour, complained more and blamed foreigners (ANY foreigner) for their problems; surprisingly they also had the largest sense of entitlement and had no qualms about ripping off "mzungus" because we're all rich (I'd say the average North American only has about 3x the spending power of a native, based on the cost of living while there).I see this everywhere, usually the people who complain the most and want the most are the ones doing the very least to change their circumstances.That being said, cultural factors are definitely a hurdle. For example, despite television commercials (and setting aside problems wrt drinking water and malaria) East Africa is teaming with food and the climate doesn't require shelter as in colder countries, so agriculture and indeed the sort of forward planning required to plant, harvest and store food is NOT deeply ingrained in these people. Most people don't have the same sense of urgency for being on time and find planning ahead more than a few days silly. This is NOT lack of intelligence and something you can only understand by dealing with these people, these kind of concepts are literally foreign to their inner world; unfortunately these are the same concepts required to build an infrastructure similar to the first world.Another cultural example is that these people are very big on sharing (this does not prevent some from being very greedy and entitled). There was one woman who had risen to the top of her institution (I can't divulge details) and was making a very good salary; she resigned. The reason? She could no longer afford her rent. Her family demanded that she share her good fortune to such an extent that she was actually poorer than if she were working at an entry level position. You may wonder why she didn't just say "no", and that's the problem, she could no more say "no" in that situation than you or I (or some of us) could expect our more successful relatives to simply give us money.Finally, I want to clarify at least what *I* meant by the interference of first world powers: by giving support, (perhaps mostly financial), to Tyrannical governments in exchange for natural resources or facilitating the installation of other types of corporate international development (which, have no illusions, are usually highly profitable ventures) they not only make it more difficult for these people to take their own destiny into their hands, but in many cases actively act against these forces because at the end of the day it will demolish their bottom-lines.For me it's not about blame, they have to do their part, the part that's under their control, and we have to do ours to, because in the first world, I really do believe we're in *part* responsible for the situation.I guess my final point is that if one truly feels strongly about these issues, one should be taking real action in one's life to help change it.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 07:48:38 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 16, 2014, 02:46:53 pm+1I am tired of the inequality in these forums, both in equipment and skills.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2014, 02:46:15 am
content: Quote from: zapta on May 16, 2014, 07:48:38 pmBack in the day,the Communist agitator was addressing a (dwindling) crowd:-He saw a Rolls-Royce drive by,& saw a "teaching moment":-"When "the Day of Freedom" comes,you ,too will have a car llike that1"One old bloke spoke up:-"I don't like big cars!"The agitator looked around,& there was a nice big house:-"When "the Day of Freedom" comes,you will have a house like that!""I don't like big houses!"& so it went.......Until the Agitator had had enough!:-"Look,Mate,when "the Day of Freedom" comes,you'll do as you're bloody well told!!"Do Ihaveto have a DT830,when I am quite happy with my Fluke 77?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2014, 04:52:49 am
content: I want companies to do well so they'll hire more people and so their stock will go up, so my retirement account will gain value.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2014, 12:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 17, 2014, 02:46:15 amYes, that's socialism.Typically people compare capitalism vs socialism. I see it more as personal liberty vs socialism. Capitalism is just a typical outcome when people are free.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2014, 02:06:38 pm
content: QuoteI am afraid not: a Fluke 77 is so 100-percenter-ish; it is unequal, and unfair to the DT830 owners; it presents an unfair and unnecessary competitive advantage; it discourages the DT830 folks; ...If you insist on using that Fluke 77, you have to make sure that it reads EQUALLY as inaccurately as a DT830.The equality talk is about getting everyone equally poor; not about getting everyone equally better off.As a being, we have been there, we have done that. Yet, some of us are willfully and skillfully blind to that.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2014, 05:06:53 am
content: Quote from: zapta on May 17, 2014, 12:58:36 pmIt's not like being "a little bit pregnant"-----there's a lot of difference between Communism & the type of "Socialism' which was common in many countries run by Social Democrats.Some things were regarded as best run by the Government,& everything else was run by Private Enterprise.In many cases,old style Conservatives agreed to a large extent,& when in power,would just "tinker round the edges".When both sides of politics lurched to the Right,"everything" had to be run by the Private Sector.In pursuit of that objective,public assets were sold off at Fire Sale prices.Of course,the loss making services were now subsidised directly,instead of cross-subsidised from the profitable ones.You don't need personal liberty for Capitalism to exist.It did quite well in a number of Dictatorships for many years.Private firms in Nazi Germany were grateful beneficaries of the Slave Labour campaign.That's why I make a distinction between Free Enterprise & Capitalism.If you wanted to start a business in Nazi Germany ,& were not in with the Nazi elite,you wouldn't stand a chance ,& if you persisted,would probably have ended up in a Concentration camp.So,no personal liberty,no business startup,no Free Enterprise.Meanwhile large Private Sector firms like I.G.Farben prospered.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2014, 05:12:26 am
content: If it's not about Sexism in technical literature, it doesn't belong in this thread.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2014, 06:32:49 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on May 18, 2014, 05:12:26 amSorry,Geoff,but I think that pretty much went "walkies" after Page 5.I was going to bale out,anyway,we've argued everything down to the ground,& will never agree!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2014, 08:57:48 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 18, 2014, 08:17:23 amWhat I find it's really strange is that the OP's post doesn't really show sexism other than his/her view.Quote from: skerdzius on November 10, 2013, 01:47:24 pm

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2014, 10:49:19 am
content: I was told "keep it impersonal",so "he","she","we","you" were out!It is reasonably easy to describe the operation of a circuit,or give instructions on operation,or testing,of a device,but perhaps harder in describing programming.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2014, 11:09:39 am
content: QuoteNot unusual: often times accusations of this nature reflect more on the accuser than the accused.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:44:30 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 18, 2014, 08:17:23 amBy this logic this woman that said that Dave is "so cute" is a sexist person and he has the right to be offended.http://sarahs-muse.livejournal.com/1250167.html

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 05:55:04 am
content: Quote from: zapta on May 22, 2014, 12:44:30 amThings don't happen in a vacuum. If Dave was called cute so often that he'd be conditioned to always act cute as not to break the expectations of his surroundings, then yes, he would have a right to be offended. Finding a single instance of someone calling Dave cute proves exactly nothing.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 22, 2014, 09:09:43 amIt's called acompliment.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 01:14:26 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on May 22, 2014, 12:06:03 pmBingo.And if someone wants to comment on a female blogger "she's pretty", then that is also just a compliment. Nothing more, nothing less.If that's the only thing a commenter says about either a male or female technical blogger as we are talking about, then the only thing they are guilty of is making a pointless off-topic comment in the form of a compliment.Anyone who makes anything more out of it is just being silly.Nowcomes the essentially separate issue of how many times this happens. If a female (or male) technical blogger gets a huge number of such comments instead of the technical comments they are after, then I can understand how that would get quite demoralising.But it's essentiallyno differentthen if I (or even the female blogger) got a majority of comments that said "I love your work bench", instead of the technical or other feedback they are after.Of course, in reality one type of comment is more common than the theoretical (but I do get occasionally) type I just posted.But is "sexism" the right work for it? I don't think so, unless the comments are abusive in some way. I think you'll find that any dictionary definition of sexism involves the terms abuse or discrimination, not "excessive compliments" (to paraphrase from Patch Adams)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 01:46:55 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on May 22, 2014, 12:06:03 pmBut this does not fit the oppressor/victim narrative.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 02:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on May 22, 2014, 01:46:55 pmTo some 'scholars' this is precisely the point, because Dave is a man he can only be an oppressor...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 03:23:04 pm
content: Quote from: 8086 on May 22, 2014, 02:21:30 pmThe sad part is that some fall for it. Around here the grievance industry is prospering.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 03:34:49 pm
content: QuoteBingo!Those 'scholars' would be happy only if we are emotion-less and sex-less droids.They need to be fixed first.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 22, 2014, 03:58:28 pmMojo-chan, I am offended by your post.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:16:21 pm
content: This all started when we gave them the vote, you know.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:27:12 pm
content: I actually took women's studies in university (just one first year course). I think a large problem is that men are afraid to really study these things for the very reason of "machoness." They pretend that there's no real useful applicable information there to be had, to themselves; and to their detriment. I could say that, to a lesser degree, this applies to sociology in general.Being a guy, I think it's important to be tough, to stand your ground, to "be a man." When I say "be a man" what I'm really saying is: be a self respecting, self-confident individual who doesn't let fear compromise their true self; but because I'm a guy, and because I am who I am, I see that as "being a man" when applied to myself; the important thing is knowing who you are and being that person with full confidence."Macho" in the sense I think we're talking about is something almost opposite. It reeks of insecurity because when a man is *acting* macho, they are abandoning their true persona in favour of a false persona which they believe will be more accepted. It's that belief which indicates the insecurity because it's based on their assumption that a demeanour other than their own self will be accepted, but their own true self might be rejected. It's obviously a ridiculous belief, but it requires courage to disprove, and self confidence, the very things that are lacking in the first place.I think everyone including myself is like this to some degree, but I also think life's too short to spend too much of it being someone you're not; I'd imagine it's really exhausting too.Back to the original point: how to encourage men not to be afraid to actually learn about feminism (and not run away in terror when confronted with concepts like separatist feminism).This might help: I studied *psychology* in school, but in fact did not become a *psychologist* nor was ever labelled as such...I formed my own informed opinions and I learned things which benefitted me (selfish man that I am).I think the same applies to any other serious field of study.[edit: typos etc.]

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on May 22, 2014, 04:16:21 pmThat's typical for the grievance industry, playing the guilt card to get special consideration.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:54:20 pm
content: QuoteI hope you didn't mean what I think you meant. If so, that would be wrong on so many levels.QuoteI would say the key is to understand that men and women are equal but different.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 22, 2014, 04:27:12 pmWe don't need to encourage anything. People are free. They can choose what courses to take or what profession to learn. Live your life and let other live their. No need to engineer other people lives.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 05:49:36 pm
content: the problem these days is that you can't win either way, as soon as you recognise a difference your in trouble, as soon as you assume your the same your in trouble for not treating people individually.I haven't forgotten hearing about women winging that they can't have a career and children, i mean lets get real, men are men and women are women, it does not prejudice as to what jobs they can do but as soon as you try to be non sexist and treat a woman like a man your in trouble for not recognizing her needs.Instead of concentrating on the sexist or non sexist debate we just need to all shut the fuck up and treat everyone fairly, forget "feminism" because it's just creating another problem to solve a problem instead of solving the problem: mens attitudes, being militant feminists solves nothing and too many girls just spend too much time trying to compete and outdo boys which just wastes time and effort.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 06:00:05 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 22, 2014, 05:20:27 pmNobody is perfect but I am trying hard. That's why I value personal liberty.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 06:15:01 pm
content: accommodate family needs yes, but pander to women that whinge that they have a right to be a top company CEO AND raise children should be told to get lost and to read a biology book.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 06:23:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on May 22, 2014, 06:15:01 pmSurely you must be joking!Well I'm gald my company offers paternity leave, same term as maternity leave.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 06:28:04 pm
content: yes quite, paternity leave is a good idea, all I'm saying is we take some things too far or at least bother listening to extremist views of people that are just not rational. If we just work on the basis of what works and is fair there is no problem. I'm not going to give air time to a woman that wants to run a large company and get paid an arm and a leg but then moans she can't spend a year or move having a child. Sad fact, women have children, we can't help that, that is the way it is and menfolk should not be made to feel bad over it.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 06:59:19 pm
content: QuoteAnd if you're trying to present useful technical information, and a majority of the comments you receive are compliments of your physical appearance it can get old really fast. Not that people stop at compliments :-(Try to find a Jerri Ellsworth or Lady Ada video on youtube where the comments don't include "propositions" of various sorts. It's embarrassing...QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:01:50 pm
content: yes sadly plenty of men never grow up and as soon they they start using the "lower brain" they start acting like real jerks, sadly so many men use the lower brain most of the time so generally merit the criticism and give the few decent blokes a bad name too.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:04:46 pm
content: well if they keep wihiging like they have been done a personal injustice what are we to assume. Oh men get paid more than me because I chose to have kids..... well darling I get pay rises and advance because i spend time on the job working rather than having kids, both have merit but I'd never dream of expecting to do both.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 22, 2014, 07:05:25 pmSee your not seeing it. Firstly we need to cure the problem like i said, not generate a contrary one to complement it - it takes 2 to argue. I have met girls that spend their whole time trying to outdo men and put them down, that is not a constructive response particularly to a man that is not being sexist and i assume the excuse for this sexism towards men is feminism. My natural reaction could be to be sexist or at least rude and responding in kind (put women down) that immediately make me sexist while the sexist girl will pass it off as banter. It's self perpetrating in some cases. Like i said, if just trust all fairly and just be nice there will be no problems, but humans are nasty animals.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:11:59 pm
content: About CEOs, the boss of the boss of the boss of my boss is a she, and she does an awesome job and handles a vast chunk of a multi billion dollar company. Well not too vast, just about a couple of billion that she is responsible for.And yeah, she makes the big bucks!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 22, 2014, 07:12:19 pmYou are totally putting words in my mouth. Granted pay and advancement are not always directly linked to time and effort spent at work (in my case it is) but if we want to discuss every single social issue then you go first mate! I have every interest in children being brought up properly because children are the future but you again put words in my mouth, if anything my opinion that women should be taken the required time to have children and not have a full blown career at the same time is because of that. My sister used to work at a nursery where children were behind in language skills, you know why ? because their parents worked, picked them up from the nursery after their busy day and work, took them home and dumped them in front of the TV with no further interaction......... their diet was equally crap. When it comes to child care I'm not fussed which parent does it (after a child no longer needs breastfeeding of course) but two full time parents and kids generally don't get you well brought up kids unles they have the money to pay for good home childcare but these days our society that is run by big business does not pay many people very well so both parents have to work, like i say we can discuss all of societies ills if you like!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:28:03 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 22, 2014, 07:11:59 pmAnd has anyone said anything to suggest that this could or should not be ?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:56:18 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 22, 2014, 07:48:43 pmAh, why have we got low wages ? how did we manage years ago when there was one earner only ? what would happen if 25% of the workforce became unavailable ? don't we have more worker supply than worker demand (forget what the government tell you) oh let me guess wages would go up but the individual wants to look after him or herself. Making progress in your career means spending time at work, I'm not talking about overtime or long hours but actually being there, I am progressing by working normal hours or less but I work hard. If a man wants to take time out to look after his kids he can't expect to be gaining experience at work and building his career without being at work. I'm not particularly career orientated, but aim to make the most of my work and progress accordingly.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 08:02:34 pm
content: That's the reason when I was looking for a job last (2009) I didn't even think in going to work in Ireland or Europe for that matter, the pay was really low, cost of living and taxes higher. I rather work in the States and go visit on vacation

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 08:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 22, 2014, 07:48:43 pmYes, women should make decisions about their life choices and so are man and everybody else. That's called being a free adult. Nobody owes us a thing, unless if you are trying to create a communist utopia but we know how it ends.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 09:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on May 22, 2014, 12:44:30 amNo,I think it indicates that "She should have gone to Specsavers"!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 05:37:20 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 22, 2014, 08:29:01 pmAs always you have put words in my mouth again. I will discuss this not further with you because it is pointless if you just make accusations based on things I did not say

author: Köcki
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 09:38:01 am
content: i don´t get the point of this gender formulations. i am no sexist, but for me all these new forms sounds awful and are not easy for a reading-flow

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 04:56:44 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on May 22, 2014, 06:59:19 pmSame for Fran Blanche videos too. Video about original piece of Apollo guidance hardware(so awesome!) ... and people have other things to comment on.Though thats a bigger ball of wax then some people realize.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 05:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: ConKbot on May 23, 2014, 04:56:44 pmCould not watch it for more than a few minutes. She talks slow, pauses between sentences and makes faces. Very bad delivery.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 05:19:11 pm
content: QuoteThat's highly subjective.If someone said that to me, I would be proud - that they like my work. Nothing wrong with people loving me - the more the merrier.I would hate to live in a world where people hesitant to express themselves.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 10:26:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 23, 2014, 10:02:14 pmFallacy alert. One does not need to have outdone someone personally in order to have a valid criticism of that person.

author: Dinsdale
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 11:43:08 pm
content: The serial killer in "Silence of the Lambs" had it figured out:"IT puts the lotion on ITs skin."

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 12:34:56 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on May 23, 2014, 10:26:50 pmFallacy identified and neutralized! Great job 8086 ;-)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 07:01:57 pm
content: and in the mean time you've been going around putting words in peoples mouths so you can run this argument your way......

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 11:36:47 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 24, 2014, 06:38:18 pmActually it was not. I appreciate EE related blogs and also happy to find new ones (iantube, mjlorton, amp hour, Iain Portalupi (great humor), and more). Somebody mentioned that Fran's Apollo video was great and I offered an alternative opinion. Women are also human and not everything they do is great (and pretending otherwise is pure sexism).BTW, my favorite wife is a woman.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 07:49:11 am
content: Quote from: westfw on May 22, 2014, 06:59:19 pmI've had all 4 of those almost exact same example comments

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 07:50:24 am
content: I should take up video blogging

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 07:52:52 am
content: Quote from: zapta on May 24, 2014, 11:36:47 pmWhat about your other wives?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 07:56:10 am
content: Simon, I Love you....In a strictly platonic sense.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 07:57:05 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on May 25, 2014, 07:56:10 amI should bloody well hope so as in any other way you not quite my type

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 08:07:22 am
content: ROFL......

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 08:18:01 am
content: When I did my MR truck license we pulled up on a hill overlooking the ocean. I simply commented that it was a beautiful day, in thoroughly manly way, and the instructor replied, in a rather unmanly way, "yes it is, just like you". I am not joking.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 11:55:10 am
content: GK: I'm guessing that's not a photo of yourself in the avatar...?

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 12:14:09 pm
content: If there weren't a problem with how people acted there wouldn't be a problem with how they spoke."He" would be a gender neutral word if people didn't feel an inherently positive or negative connotation from it. Personal experience colors everything.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 01:16:26 pm
content: Quote"He" had been a gender neutral word until recently.QuoteAbsolutely true.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 02:09:41 pm
content: This sort of thing does annoy me. I don't care if I'm labelled as sexist, I'll put across my opinion anyway and if it upsets anyone, they can ignore it.The problem these days is child care isn't valued at all: jobs in that sector are poorly paid, typically minimum wagePolitical correctness and capitalism have caused people to forget about basic anthropology.I don't believe it's sexist that women have traditionally being involved more in child care and men have had to provide food, goods etc. It's simply the natural order of things. Women are designed to invest more time in child care. They have to carry the baby for 9 months and nurse it for much longer and no amount of feminist propaganda or political correctness is going to change this. Traditionally a woman would have have her husband, to support her financially whilst she raises the children. It isn't sexist, it's just the way nature made the human species. Raising children is a very important role in society, much more important than economic growth and it happens women have evoked to do this much better than men.Of course this doesn't mean women shouldn't be allowed to contribute to economic growth, just as men shouldn't be excluded from childcare but most of the time it makes more sense for women to devote more time to raising children and men to making money.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 02:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 25, 2014, 02:09:41 pmOr in short, promote equal opportunity, not equal outcome.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 02:21:15 pm
content: Amen!what is an outcome ? If a woman chooses to raise a child so be it, no children = no future to the human race. That is of course different from chain-childbearing for the sake of the benefits it brings while not bringing up the children properly - oh dear I just opened another can of worms........

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 01:44:19 am
content: Simon, let's add to that can of worms: two words---tubal ligation. You open the can of worms and I will whack the hornet's nest

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 07:56:09 am
content: what is tubal litigation ?

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 10:39:51 am
content: Quote from: Simon on May 26, 2014, 07:56:09 amThat's when you sue the fallopian tubes for producing eggs. Tuballigationon the other hand is a form of sterilization where you tie the fallopian tubes to prevent eggs from reaching the uterus.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 01:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: nitro2k01 on May 25, 2014, 11:55:10 amCorrect.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 01:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: nitro2k01 on May 26, 2014, 10:39:51 amNo, tubal litigation is when you sue the city for allowing the winos to live in the underground train stations, causing them to reek of unwashed bodies and stale urine, causing permanent damage to your olfactory senses. Thus you can no longer smell your significant others' perfume/cologne/natural pheromones, allowing you to sue for punitive damages.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 02:06:38 pm
content: Regarding female tech-stars/you-tube presenters:I think it's harmless but youtube comments that circle around the theme: "wow, an attractive female who knows stuff", "I'm in love" etc. bother me a bit.It focusses on the persons sexual identity and it illustrates a problem a see amoung some of my techy friends:They all want a girlfriend, they want her to be smart and attractive; fine.They *think* that any woman who's into geeky stuff (or stars in some geek-associated media) is a potential mate and have quasi one-sided crush/romances with them like we all used to do when we were ten.When it comes to real life, if they encounter a smart attractive woman (the world is *teaming* with them; I'm married to one of them), despite all the complaints of never finding a girlfriend, they don't go up and *talk* to her, or worse, they'll talk to her, but not like a guy who's interested in dating, but a guy who's interested in being friends (no doubt disappointing many a woman who was *actually interested* in them).It all stems from a fear of rejection and it reinforces this type of "smart geeky woman on a pedestal syndrome" because these women are both ideal (in the mind of the geek; I'm a geek too so I don't use the word derisively) and also unattainable (no chance of rejection).The problem is that these attitudes swamp comments and leave less room for technical discussion; and I can't help but to think that this makes the presenters feel they aren't taken seriously, or that part of their popularity is only because they're an attractive woman.I think many guys would be surprised at how many very smart, very attractive women are walking around dejected, cold, frustrated and deeply hurt because everyone focusses on their looks or on some false mental image of them while completely ignoring the person they are.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 02:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 26, 2014, 02:06:38 pmSend a few my way then, the problem is that we are all taught in society to have high expectations of a mate because it's all a race and a game to win the hottest partner (either sex) and impress our friends etc so many an opportunity to meet someone is missed as unless the right boxes are ticked it's a no go, instead of just being happy to talk to people and be friendly.When it comes to sad people on youtube that are only interested in fantasizing, sadly one of the things men do wasting time and being assholes, but on the internet they have less inhibitions. I think it's also a given that most geeks in the old sense of the word (not the I'm an apple fan type) are in fact people on the autistic spectrum / have asperges but undiagnosed that find interaction with people difficult and generally find it very hard to impress girls in just the right way to get their interested and will tend to have such online outbursts. Of course you get people from some countries where talking about sex is tabu and they just let all inhibitions go on the internet because they can.Ok let the storms rage against me now.........

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 02:47:17 pm
content: From the dictionary:Sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.The 'you look great' comments from the male geeks do not seem to fit the bill. It's more a one way crush or admiration as Mad Shaman described.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 03:29:04 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on May 26, 2014, 02:17:09 pmOne of these days, your balls will drop and you'll realize how far off you are.You don't fall in love just by looks, that's not love is called something else (lust) so if you are ok to fall in lust, that's up to you, but maybe when you turn 40 or hopefully on your 30's you'll see the light.It's quite alright, we all went through all of this before.Edit: hint, geek it's been "in" for quite a while now.

author: old gregg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 03:42:32 pm
content: QuoteIt's not "nature", it's "society" and "religion", both created "tradition" and that statement that Women should be more concerned about Child thing and let Men do real work.Then comes, maybe, the biological connexion between the mother and child (that she carried for 9 months into her biological system with obvious consequences).I'm pretty sure there're (were) some Human societies that can prove the exact oposite of what you're saying.Regarding youtube commenters, well it's the exact addition of testosterone and stupidity.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 03:48:49 pm
content: Quote from: old gregg on May 26, 2014, 03:42:32 pmTry looking at the animal kingdom if you want an unbiased perspective, and yes I'm aware that male lions look after cubs while mothers go hunting but I'm guessing that is once cubs reach a certain age which is the parallel rational people on this thread have been drawing all along.....

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 03:50:47 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on May 26, 2014, 03:29:04 pmwhenever was i talking about love ? i was infact refering to lust or just sexual drive with nowhere to go...... love never came into it.Yea I don't keep up with the times or fashion being the old type of "geek".

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 04:32:22 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on May 26, 2014, 03:50:47 pmI don't even know what "geek" means, I've only seen them in the movies, well those are "nerds" really.Actually I always loved computers, programming, electronics, math, physics, etc.Would that make me a geek?Not much into geek fashion either, because I never even knew such thing existed back in the early 80s, jeans and t-shirt, and more into ac/dc, sex pistols, bowie and lou reed than the cure and the other pop stuff for example.Unkept most of the year, I mean no regular haircuts or even shave (my wife doesn't seem to mind much).So pretty much I was just another kid like the rest, other than I had an interest in all kinds of things, but that included friends. Our gang of friends grew over 40 people boys and girls, anytime someone will start dating some boy or girl from another group of friends our circle just kept on growing. To the point that we just didn't even call each other, we just showed up at the regular times where we hanged out and there will always be someone from the group.But that was/is very normal in Spain. People just go out, even if you liked computers, electronics, math, etc. was/is quite acceptable and kind of cool.Also we didn't have jocks either, not even nowadays I believe. Some people were good at sports but that whole separation as far as I know only existed in the US.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 04:47:16 pm
content: if you look at a few american or british films/tv programs from the 80's you will see geeks/nerds who are what today would be diagnosed with aspergers/autistic spectrum because the asperges end of the autistic spectrum was only discovered in the early 80's, until then they were nerds and weirdo's maybe the ones that get on better are called geeks.......But all of that does not take away from the fact that plenty of men are just pigs or can't stop thinking with their dicks

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 05:12:57 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on May 26, 2014, 04:47:16 pmWe had here recently a case of an asperger kid that did not get enough attention from the girls so he went and killed a few girls and more popular boys. Play the video here, he is amazingly honest and articulate.http://www.mediaite.com/online/video-suspected-santa-barbara-killers-disturbing-youtube-manifesto/

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 05:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on May 26, 2014, 02:17:09 pmI'll have to check our export laws ;-)I agree that this ridiculous perception that one's significant other is some kind of status symbol or object to show off really damages a lot of relationships or potential relationships.My opinion is that any woman who still wants to play games and doesn't know what she wants doesn't get the most important "tick". This goes for the guys too. Having a real relationship requires both parties to be "real", some people haven't figured out yet how to do that or are afraid.These societal pressures also make people put "my friends will think this guy/girl is hot or not" over "*I* find this person attractive.Sooner or later though, everyone has to grow up (and I don't mean you have to stop playing with toys).Quote from: Simon on May 26, 2014, 02:17:09 pmIt's a tough call, I definitely think having social autism can get in the way.I can totally agree that some find it hard to impress girls in the right way to get them interested. Problem is, the best advice I could ever give is "be yourself." It sounds too simple, and it sounds cliché, but in my humble experience, no matter who you are, that's when you're most attractive to anyone who's naturally attracted to you anyway.When I was in highschool, I was an ultra-nerd and a "loser", along with my loser friends. Girls just couldn't be interested in me, or so I thought.In reality, when I look back, there were PLENTY of girls interested in me, I just didn't have enough confidence to believe it when I saw it.Some guys have to get over the following:1) Someone who isn't into you when you're acting totally like yourself, warts and all, really isn't right for you; how could it ever work? Isn't it stupid to spend energy putting on an uncomfortable act to spend time with someone who wouldn't like who you really are?2) What women really like is a man who is himself with confidence, and the sort of men women like is wide and varied and truly has little to do with what popular media portrays, but the media does make being yourself seem more risky.3) Certain guys also need to learn to recognise when a woman they're into is also into them and BELIEVE IT, while at the same time recognise when a woman's only being friendly and that if a woman isn't into *them* *that way*, it's not because there's something wring with the woman or themselves. Rejection has never killed anyone.P.S. Any woman who has romantic feelings for you, but doesn't engage because of what her friends or peers might think has a lot of growing up to do and wouldn't make a good partner, and *certainly* wouldn't make a good wife.I'm sure a lot of my rambling applies to other gender-combinations but probably not exactly.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 05:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on May 26, 2014, 05:12:57 pmHave no idea what was going through that kids mind, peer pressure is a powerful nasty thing and yes maybe he had aspergers

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 06:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 26, 2014, 05:31:41 pmFix all of that and you have fixed most of societies problems. The media do people down so that they can control them and sell them the goods they want them to buy or get them to pay to read their shitty columnists telling you how to succeed.People always spend more time on trying to be better then their neighbor than being happy and thanks to the media think this is what makes them happy. How many products have you seen advertised that appeal to your self esteam of lack of, how many cosmetics that you are told will get you the man/woman of your dreams, how many cars sold to people who want one better than their neighbor or co-worker, how many other items sold on the promise that they will make you look better in some way and we are conditioned to go around seeking things and ways to outdo our peers instead of having a levelheaded friendly relationship with our peers and then we wonder why we are in the mess we are in and people start singing sexism, feminism ad trying to box out problems and give them fancy names that require fancy solutions so that they can carry on with the rest of their competitive shit lives and ignore the problems.In the UK class is till a big thing, I have a coworker who recently said he likes to thinks of himself as middle class, ya just because he got a few pay rises, upgraded his car from a ford to BMW and thinks he is big (and still can;t see solutions to engineering problems for looking too hard and trying to be too clever and be seen to be clever). If you ask me what class I think i am I'd tell you NONE, class is irrelevant to me!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 07:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 26, 2014, 05:31:41 pmMy son told me a good way to find out and it's actually brilliant. say you are in a place that is moderately crowded and there is a girl you like and you think she might be into you. Without looking at her fake a yawn, then check if she does yawn, if she does, then she was checking you out.Should work on other gender combinations as well.I never chased women, nor I think they chased me, but things just happen when you least expect it, usually is the right type of smile that lets you know, or the playing with her hair wile talking to you and the lack of awkward silences are a good indication. The trick is just be be ok with yourself, it's all about being confident. And just talk about normal everyday things or things you like and listen to her, I mean it's really simple.For confidence, go to a bar and sing karaoke, If you can do that, you can talk to girlsIf you are too shy or feel like you will ridicule yourself, I'll tell you that nobody in that place cares how good or bad you are (in general).Although depending on the age group in the bar they might, I guess trying to do this in a college bar they might make fun of you if you do badly, but you can always find a place where the average age is 35 or more.On rejection and being dumped. Don't be a creep! give them space if they want to move on, don't over do it and try to force them to get back with you, move on as well. Of course I'm talking dating periods of less than say 3 months it's not serious to go crazy, 6 months might start to get serious, a year well you should get married then, 3 years, she will move on because you will never commit.If you find someone and you spend way too much time with "the boys" playing video games and getting high, or drinking, etc, without inviting her over, or never taking her out often and you just treat her like someone that you can call at night after being on a drinking spree to come over after you are done playing with your friends, believe me it won't end up good.Most of my friends while not being married were female (just can talk so much about sports and tits & asses with "the boys" at the bar) so I've heard a lot of the female perspective of things. Funny thing I never dated any of my female friends. I don't mean all guys are like that, I have good male friends that are past the tits and ass conversations, sadly some never went past that.On female friends, women have this ladder and you will be placed in one of the steps, if you are in the friends step, you'll rarely get promoted to a "doable" step. No matter where you are on the steps, you cross them you go into the abyss. If you try to get out of your step and think it's more than friendship, a misstep will push you to the abyss. Also not all females are looking for a long relationship, but you just have to be honest to yourself on what is all about, no harm on playing between consenting adults, as long as you are not misleading. Remember females talk about these things all the time I mean they talk about boys, but more on the relationship aspect with details, males don't (at least not all of us).Guys on the other hand have just one single step and no abyss, well yeah they have an abyss but only triggered if cheated on, or perception of being cheated on.Single women can be mean with each other too "frienemies" since they are really competing with each other, but that's when they are actively looking for someone in the same place. Another important thing, Do Not Ever date one of your ex-girlfriends friends. This opens Pandora's box and you don't want to ever open that box!So single women can be as stupid as single men, and act desperate and funny when trying too hard. Specially on bars.Which brings me back to the Sexism in engineering, woman that are married (or in a relationship) they don't go for drinks on happy hour, also most married (or in a relationship) guys don't do that either, they rather be with their significant others. Also because men don't trust their mates as much as females trust their mates. We (males) are more insecure about letting them hang out with their office mates.wow this went long sorry about that, I guess I just wanted to share my opinion. But you gotta know that at least in the states, single women sometimes think with their genitals too. More often that you know.The problem is more that you find someone that is not looking for someone while you are not looking for someone either.I could write a book with all that I left out, one important thing is to get your mind outside of the high school mind set of always needing some relationship, lucky me (or unlucky) my first marriage didn't last, separated for a couple of years being totally alone and really discovering how I am by myself with not relationships at all. And if you find someone that had time to discover herself without being on a relationship for a while then "bingo". No high school dramas anymore

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 07:28:36 pm
content: Interesting discussion.Here's some food for thought:Death by Political Correctness

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 08:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 23, 2014, 05:19:11 pmWell gee, danny; you should put up an avatar picture of you in a good suit, or maybe showing a little skin (you know what I mean!) (Don't forget to smile!) And perhaps you should be a bit, I dunno, "flirtier" in your postings..

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 09:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on May 26, 2014, 08:46:04 pmEdit: I forgot the crucial start of the sentence (in bold):And while you are at it.Would you be a dearand take care of the office kitchen? it's kind of messy and the cleaning crew won't show up until 6 pm and we have important visits coming in.I know we don't pay you to do this but please just this once.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 10:12:53 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on May 26, 2014, 09:44:08 pmWe may be able to fight our instincts but we still have them and they are as strong as ever. The human body has changed very little since the stone age. Generally men are physically stronger than women, who still have to carry a baby for nine months and are able to breastfeed it.Give one example of a society where women make most of the wealth and men have the main role in childcare? You won't find one because it isn't natural in the human species. When a women is carrying/nursing a child, she's in a position where she needs more calories, yet is less physically able to get food and has less time available to do so. Therefore it makes sense for her to rely on her mate to help her provide for her child.In the animal kingdom, only a small proportion of species have the male as the main care provider for the young and they evolved that way, most of the time the females devote more time to raising the young and the human species is no different.Problems occur when society tries to medal with the natural order of things.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 10:34:23 pm
content: Think of this from the evolution point of view.The reason we don't see wide spread occurrence of the male gender taking care of domestic things and the female gender taking care of hard labor, etc. is that if such a society were to exist, it would be less efficient, more prone to adverse shocks and thus less likely to survive over the long term. Darwin would argue that what we observe today the bifurcation is the result of evolution through millions of years as human and billions of years as other animals. So that extent, Mother Nature has solved the division of labor issue and found the optimal solution.That does not, however mean two things:1) such an arrangement is optimal for a particular male or female. He or she may prefer different arrangements. I think it is an interesting question as to how a society should approach that kind of desire. On one hand, we are equal so everyone should be given the right to do what s/he so pleases; On the other hand, if sufficient number of us prefer the less efficient solution, it could be detrimental to us and our future collectively.A bioethics expert may be able to provide some insight on that but I think it is a politically dangerous discussion in today's "civilized" societies.2) such an arrangement is optimal in the future. It is uncertain how we will evolve in the future. There was a period of time where women were the primary decision makers in our history. There are areas where women are superior to man (and vice versa): endurance, survival, longevity, natural immunity to certain defects, reproduction, .... So it is possible that our evolution could lead us to a point where one gender is more favored against another and you could see our societies evolve quite differently.Take higher ed for example. More and more women are graduating vs. men. It isn't far fetched to see a future society where more women are educated vs. men and a breakdown of families and more political / economic power shifting to women as we compete more on intelligence / education vs. brutal force.How we solve issues like that is unknowably unknown at present time.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 10:41:50 pm
content: I'm just glad our kids have no intentions to stay home until their 30s, actually in Europe it's common for not moving out until married and one child staying at home to take care of their parents later on, therefore inheriting the house.In the US it's kind of weird, usually they sell the house to pay for the retirement home. Not always but often. Then again Europe is more sedentary than the US in general again.Kick them out (not literally) when they go to college/trade school at around 18-19 and hope they do good.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 11:44:08 pm
content: QuoteAnd, of course we now have "child boards" to replace that Politically-Incorrect term "daughter board".And presumably, "main board" replaces "mother board" to maintain Political Correctness and gender equality for all. Huzzah!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 01:49:55 am
content: ..Funny.The boys at work still call me a mother.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2014, 03:08:35 am
content: My only "harassment" experience was on my first job where the boss of my boss did get mad if I didn't get to work before him because that meant he had to do coffee by himself. Well not really harassment, but just entitlement, I was hired as a junior programmer/sys admin not coffee maker.My boss (a her) told me about it and I pretty much just laugh it off, and of course made sure that I would be there about the same time not 15 minutes earlier like i used to (being my first real job and all).Well actually there was another incident at that job:Later on it became even more weird when they (my boss and her boss) actually were dating. So one day I was just hanging over the doorway talking to my bosses boss by his doorstep, well she confused me with him and slapped my ass. Later on I found out that he just thought we had something going on and went through all my e-mails, as in breaking into my account since he had system admin privileges as well. Weird thing is at the beginning I didn't have a car and my boss (her) will drive me home every evening to my apartment (where my first wife was waiting for me) a very jealous first wife at that.Of course he hated my guts from there on even if nothing ever happened, it was just that I was facing towards the door and she confused my build with his from behind I guess. Even if he is way taller by over half a foot.I had other occasions but they were just passing remarks like this girl that was on marketing that she always wore very provocative clothes (like if you try to board an airplane dress like that they wont let you) but she only said to me that our company had really good looking employees. I don't think it was a pass on me but I wasn't interested anyways.One thing if for sure with her and she was proud of it, she will close deals like nothing making the guys she dealt with melt at her feet. And since she relied on her hotness I can say that she really was hot. That was her angle and worked very well for her. That said, she wasn't stupid at all, very smart but she didn't mind using her "tramp" card to get ahead.Do not underestimate females playing their sex card either, not saying it's the norm either, mostly it's not, but it does happen.So one thing I've heard lately and not sure if it's true, there are a lot of applications on the Microsoft Campus looking for vested Microsoft employees to marry.It's a very complicated world out there.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2014, 03:31:06 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 26, 2014, 10:12:53 pmThat is one of the most unreal things I've read in a while.People confuse the "natural order of things" and "my preferred order of things" all the time. Once a social species achieves the ability to do what it wants (as soon as things like recreation become common; there's enough communal safety and time) the society is no longer a slave to natural processes, and a society that uses nature or tradition to excuse modern dumb-ass behavior and thinking isn't really a society with a defensible position. I'm looking at you, middle-eastern cultures.I was in jury duty once over a rape case. The rapist felt it was his right to rape anyone anywhere at any time because that's what cavemen did. We don't know how "cavemen" behaved sexually, for one thing. We don't even know what human sleep patterns were like 200 years ago*, so forget prehistoric humans and their gender roles.The practices and beliefs of the past carried forth to today because "it's natural," or because of tradition, shows a complete lack of understanding in the progress made between the past and the present.* there is evidence that all across the world, sleep patterns were very different just 2-3 centuries ago. Naps during the day were common enough that some businesses closed for 2-3 hours after lunch, and stayed open later. Also, there is evidence that people has "second sleeps" where they woke up after a few hours of sleep, for 1-2 hours, around midnight, then went back to sleep in early morning. There's evidence of that, but no proof. Folks just wrote about their days as if it were common knowledge, and they never seem to go into detail about it. Thus, we, just 200-300 years later, have very little idea how people slept, woke, and went their lives on a day to day basis.So, when talking about human behavior, sexual orientation, or gender roles, saying that something is the natural order of things means that it's really just what you believe in, and you should just say that, instead.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2014, 04:29:29 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 28, 2014, 03:31:06 amIn Spain, store hours are still 9am-12pm, go out have some pintxos (tapas) wine/beer with friends, lunch at around 1:30 or 2, and a short nap, then back to work from 3pm-8pm. Dinner around 9 or 10, go out for a bit, bed around midnight or 1am.Factories schedules are different and you pretty much work your whole shift taking a snack on your 30 minutes break, depending on what shift you work, but then you are home by 3:30pm or 4pm and have the rest of the day for yourself.I'm pretty sure it's been this way for many hundreds of years. Not the factory schedules just the standard one.Although banks did the whole 8am to 3pm shifts and where open from 10am till 3pm. Not sure if that is still the case but I wouldn't doubt it.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2014, 04:49:02 am
content: I often take a nap during the day. Don't tell my boss, for Christ sakes!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 04:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: GK on May 26, 2014, 01:40:19 pmIt's Freema Agyeman.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 05:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 28, 2014, 03:31:06 amFor goodness sake. No one here is justifying rape, which I doubt would've been tolerated by cavemen anyway: you rape my sister and my whole family will beat you to a pulp.This isn't about belief or religion but common sense.I agree with free choice but nature only allows so much of that and if you actively go against nature there will be consequences. If a woman chooses to have children, then she has to carry them for nine months and it's also in the baby's best interests to be beast fed: because it's the way nature made her. If she doesn't do this, then the viability of her offspring is reduced.As far as sleep patterns are concerned: it's just as obvious that humans are designed to be awake during the day and sleep at night. Notice how there's no culture where everyone is awake for the whole night, then sleeps during the day? People who go against this, for whatever reason, are more likely to suffer from health problems. The same goes for children who've been dumped in a nursery as soon as they were born so the mother can go back to work. This is exactly why it's very important for women to be allowed maternity leave and not feel discriminated against so they're allowed plenty of time off.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 05:13:49 pm
content: I still refer to my first wife as my 'starter wife'. Does that make me a sexist?I do believe men came from Mars and women came from Venus, and there will never be a way to have total piece or agreement between them.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2014, 05:20:41 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on June 08, 2014, 05:13:49 pmA starter husband marries a starter wife. Nothing wrong with that ;-)