Free PCBCAD packages. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2021, 12:22:48 pm
content: Had a look around for a free PCBCAD package.1/ Obviously KiCAD already profusely elsewhere on this form so I wont comment on that.2/ JLCPCB EasyEDA doesnt look too bad and is free but online. You can save projects to your local pc though.3/ GNU freeware

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:53:55 am
content: "Free" software is a debatable term.Is free still free if the programmers were paid from grants which comes from our taxes ?Sounds like we already paid for it whether we use it or not ?Clearly if no one was paid its can be said to be free.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 02:19:15 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 01:53:55 amI don't live in Europe. So, yes, KiCad is absolutely 100% zero pounds and zero pence for me.Wow, sore man.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 02:24:09 am
content: DipTrace has a freeware edition (with some limitations). I've been playing with it (and KiCad) and ended up liking Dippy more (smaller, lighter app that was fast to learn).

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 03:38:36 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 06, 2021, 02:24:09 amIts strange how some people like one pcbcad package but not another. One mans wine is another mans poison.kicad got funded $20,000 last year. That's not free coz you paid taxes on the grants.Its just a new way of funding.Not very capitalist as the supplier doesn't get paid.I would love to use kicad but just found it too difficult. Its getting a happy medium between easy to use but still have plenty of features.A million icons might look pretty but I havent a clue what any do.Just a few "worded" toolbar items like "add component" "add track" etc etc would have been enough.KISS.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 03:40:18 am
content: You seem to conveniently ignore the very common situation where free software is replacing expensive paid software. If the alternative was to pay commercial license fees then not only does the organisation save money but the taxpayer does too. And lots of other parties who could not afford good software have something to use. I would say that is in fact a very good use of tax.Sorry but the "Linux is a cancer" type trope is so last century.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 03:49:03 am
content: Quote from: retiredfeline on March 06, 2021, 03:40:18 amDepends on how many competing "paid for" software businesses go bust due to it.Free is great until someone comes along at your work and offers to do your job for free or for much less and your chased out.Been on the end of it myself when a contractor offered to do my job for a lot less and I lost my job.Its a bitter pill to swallow.But I guess all is fair in business and in war.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 03:52:25 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 03:38:36 amWhat grants, what taxes? All of KiCad's funding appears to be private donations.Quote from:https://www.kicad.org/blog/2021/01/2020-Year-End-Funding-Drive-Results/Nigel's just bitching because KiCad is his competition and, as usual, he's not being exactly frank about having a horse in this race.

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 03:57:07 am
content: I would say that more knowledge and capabilities spread throughout society is a better use of resources.How long are you going to carry this grudge for? *7557 protests too much, methinks.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 03:58:55 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 06, 2021, 03:52:25 amI no longer sell pcbcad software.Its a waste of time when other businesses give it away.When it comes to the end of the month and income from it doesn't even pay for website costs its time to give up.My income was killed 3 years ago by someone selling software on ebay for £4.kicad was just the last straw really.Not a problem, as I moved on 3 years ago to hardware based software systems where there is healthy market.Definitely not bitter. The world moves on.Just get a bit pissed when a $3 package is compared to a $20,000 per year funded package.My funding was zero.Cant complain I sold it for 30 years so its well paid for development.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:05:03 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 03:38:36 amAnd when are you going to address the fact that not everyone who has access to it paid any taxes which contributed to those grants?Did Russia contribute to CERN? Australia? The US? China? Indonesia? Iran? Egypt?By the way, would you like to compare that $20k of funding with the £2.6m Boris just spent on a fucking briefing room?

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:16:43 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 06, 2021, 04:05:03 amI agree.But I did, I made a donation.So paid for something I cant use !

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:21:03 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 03:38:36 amWhat makes me like an application:(1) it is not a bloated install package. Diptrace was 10x smaller than KiCad so my "Like" barometer went up before even installing.(2) it installs quickly with minimal BS. Both achieved that.(3) Start the software - can you immediately get a "Hello World" working? That's called "affordance". Diptrace has it, so does KiCad, but Diptrace has more of it!(4) Use the software - does it "feel good" or does it get in the way? Does it use intuitive keyboard shortcuts? Good use of right-click menus?Some programmers get this right, others don't...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:22:55 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 04:16:43 amSo in 2019, the UK contributed approximately £143m to CERN. That's about 16% of their funding. That makes $3200 of the KiCAD funding, to very naively split it. To further naively split that by the UK adult population, that would mean you contributed $0.000064.And it's not that you can't, it's that you won't.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:23:31 am
content: Quote from: retiredfeline on March 06, 2021, 03:40:18 amI agree with that, this approach is better for growing the economy overall even if some will scream "Commies!"Commercial software still has a role where it does some things better than the free stuff.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:25:56 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 03:49:03 amThe hard-line capitalist take on this is that you weren't good enough at delivering value.Which usually is bullshit, if you look longer than the next three-month reporting cycle; also less true than the fact that contractors are more often than not chosen for the non-committal nature of relation to the customer, wherein it is promised that a swift termination is possible. (this is probably more relevant in countries that have some employee protection in place; where the employer can't fire at will.)Now, contractors usually trust corporate inertia to propel them through this, also relying on "if you're not part of the solution, there's good money to be made in prolonging the problem" as a mechanism to sustain income. Both factors effectively result in them losing their competitive edge compared to employees.None of this is relevant to a discussion market for free PCB CAD software. First of all, the contractor did not offer to replace you for nothing, right?Looking at the current market, it's not like Autodesk are going out of business, even though we who have suffered from their products might wish that they would. And the competition KiCAD is up against is mostly the simpler versions from megavendors, not any mom-and-pop small software vendor -- because there aren't any. Not anymore.The big ones offerings, OTOH, have become more and more encumbered as vendors like Autodesk, Adobe, and others effectively are enforcing the "for-hire" model that their license has contained all the time. ("You have a time-limited right to borrow this software and we at any time are allowed to make it stop working, turning your projects into encrypted blobs") This of course thanks to call-home software being practical now that anything is networked all the time.We got in to those relations in the epoch where software was bought shrink-wrapped, when it at most was about not losing the hardware copy-protection dongle to be able to run the product. It felt OK at that time. (No, not really, I hated it.) Now, with call-home, the tables have turned, and convenience and perceived short-run productivity gains have put a lot of people in very unhealthy relations with vendors where the power is most unevenly distributed.Free/Libre software is a very much needed counterweight to this, giving the users control over their work flow, and protecting their intellectual property from hostage situations. It also makes a clear case for competence vs resources, at least in the design phase; it's not about what resources you've got, it's what you know, your experience and competence that makes all the difference.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:29:08 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 06, 2021, 04:22:55 amI do keep coming back to it and get a little further.I just dont have the spare time to do it justice.I am trying to run a hardware/software business not spend 3 days learning a new package.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 05:03:22 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 03:49:03 amHaven't jobs always been "at the pleasure of" the employer? People are laid off for no fault of their own every day. Not sure what that has to do with open source software.If someone is interested in a good board layout package, FreePCB is pretty good. Version 1.359 was what I used some time back to design a board I've make a couple of million from. It may get an upgrade in the next year or two at which point I'll probably use the same 1.359. It has been updated, but nothing that is essential. The nice thing about the original version was it was simple and just worked!

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 08:42:48 am
content: I see no discrepancy between public funding and something beeing considered 'free'. On the contrary.But the confusion IMO is entirely in the interpretation of the word 'free'. It's not 'for free' software. It's 'free as in freedom' software. The 'for free' can be debated ad nauseam. The 'freedom' of free software cannot be debated.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 12:20:16 pm
content: I would wager that CERN investing in KiCAD made it more free than it was before. If they can save money on only a few expensive licenses they saved money for the tax payers. And gave them access to a more capable CAD package in the process.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: bpiphany on March 06, 2021, 12:20:16 pmI fully agree. CERN likely has quite a few Altium and other CAD package licenses. The 20k euro they invested in Kicad is likely insignificant compared to what they pay in license fees. CERN is also very active in the open hardware and software community. This leads to interesting exchanges between professionals like in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/hpm7177-adc-from-cern/Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 03:49:03 amDoesn't have to be. Why should companies write the same software package over and over? It is much more efficient to pool resources & knowledge to make one package which then can be used to make money with. Many open source packages work that way. Money is not made from selling licenses but providing support. You can buy professional support for Kicad for example.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 02:28:14 pm
content: Has there ever been an EEVBlog poll regarding banning someone from the forum?I'm thinking of starting one.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 03:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 06, 2021, 04:21:03 amThis is what people's opinions on what makes one package better than another boils down to.I set about designing my first PCB just before Christmas. I started out with Eagle/Fusion 360. What a nightmare. But it did the job, JLCPCB made the boards and the circuit worked. However, I really wanted the 3D modeling and Eagle/Fusion is p-a-i-n-f-u-l. So, I sat down with KiCad for just one day and completely replicated the design. My second board was a 4-layer SMD affair which I also found is very easy to do in KiCad. For me, the UI very intuitive but certainly understand others find it confusing. Choice is a wonderful thingThe same goes for other kinds of apps. For me, NLEs for video editing are a great example. My favorite is Vegas (formerly from Sony). It's an odd-ball because its workflow resembles a DAW (digital audio workstation) which is because of its roots as an audio editor (Sound Forge). Some people hate it because of that, others find it the best solution.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on March 06, 2021, 03:20:51 pmAgreed. KiCad definitely didn't give me a bad taste in the mouth or anything, and I still have KiCad installed and intend to spend a little more time to get to know it better. The one thing I found disappointing in KiCad is the lack of an auto router... one of the things I liked about Diptrace was being able to generate a "first iteration" automatically, which I could then give a beauty treatment afterwards. I did not use "auto place", I placed the components manually where I wanted them, and let the autorouter have at it. Then I moved some stuff around where connections got a little convoluted.The Diptrace autorouter did get pretty close first time, with the project I tried. I do suspect, though, that the amount of time I used applying make-up to the auto router output may not have been much less than the amount of time it would have taken to route the whole thing manually one track at a time with KiCad's "semi automatic" rule respecting route tool. There is probably no way around moving stuff around and re-trying things either way.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 04:44:08 pm
content: Speaking of auto-routers, did anybody manage to install and use FreeRouting with Kicad:https://freerouting.org/freerouting/using-with-kicad

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 05:54:17 pm
content: I tried Freerouting a while ago, found the results adequate but not spectacular. There is no integration or interaction between Freerouting and KiCad beyond export and import in a compatible file format.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 07:03:13 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 06, 2021, 04:21:03 amIMHO these are not good metrics perse. Some software has a workflow which may seem non-intiutive or even wrong at first sight but can turn out to be very productive once you get the hang of it. You can look at CAD demos all day long but in the end you have to make a few boards with a PCB CAD package in order to tell whether it is good or not.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 10:04:43 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on March 06, 2021, 02:28:14 pmMaybe you need to take a moment and collect yourself? This is a public forum. I can't think of anything that could happen here that would be worth getting at all excited about.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 04:53:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 06, 2021, 07:03:13 pmThinking about it, the best software really does both? - very productive, and very nice to use. Like the difference between two cars - both get you from A to B, but one might be a nicer ride than the other...

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 05:54:46 pm
content: UIs are like religions. Different people like different things. I prefer consistency in interfaces and that means between different apps. So KiCAD falls short in my measure as it works so differently than other Windows apps, especially if you aren't running Windows! lolAt the moment I am mostly using KiCAD for viewing schematics and find the counter intuitive pan and zoom to be a major PITA. Cntl-scroll wheeliszoom. I don't know about Linux or the Mac OS, but it seems to be nearly universal in every app I use... except for CAD. Well, cntl-scroll zooms in LTspice, but so does shft-scroll, alt-scroll and just plain scroll. I can't tell you how often I use cntl-scroll in KiCAD expecting a zoom only to find the page moving.A UI works well when a person does not need to think about it. Back in the days of DOS it was every app for itself. Under the rule of Windows things should be a bit more consistent.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 06:16:38 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on March 07, 2021, 05:54:46 pmYes, the ctrl-scroll to pan is a UI fail, in my personal opinion. Perhaps there is a setting somewhere to alter the behaviour to more familiar UI paradigms?LTSpice is also "weird" but not so weird that you can't get used to it. Ctrl-scroll to pan is one weird too far, like having the clutch and the brake pedals switched in your car... doable, but you'd have to think about it all the time!

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 06:19:43 pm
content: The saving grace of LTspice is the space bar. The UI would be completely obnoxious without it.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 07:03:37 pm
content: I also use ltspice as well as a PCBCAD package.Gets very confusing with functions keys between the two packages.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 07:09:09 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 07, 2021, 04:53:50 pmI'm not sure whether that is possible. A simple example is giving the user an ok/cancel button for every action to make sure whether they really want to do an operation or not. For a novice it can be the saving grace but for a pro it quickly becomes a nuisance.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 07:11:34 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on March 07, 2021, 05:54:46 pmIn the nightlies of 5.99, and in the forthcoming KiCad 6, it finally follows the same selection. drag, scrolling and zooming conventions on macOS with a trackpad as every other Mac application, after you've made a few preferences settings. No longer does it shoot off moving everything on the screen in the wrong way, in the wrong direction, just because you've had the temerity to click somewhere. It takes it from an unusable, annoying pile of crap to a usable product with some quirks (and still quite a lot of bugs). Ipresumethat they've similarly cleaned up the same aspects of the Windows UI.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 07:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 07, 2021, 07:09:09 pmMaking that kind of stuff configurable can go a long way - imagine being able to change the hot keys in any application... E.g. Notepad++ is a good example of how to do it. If you don't care - fine, don't change anything. But if you do care... you can change the hot keys!The same applies to "Show confirmation before <operation>" functionality - make it configurable.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 08:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 07, 2021, 07:09:09 pmI get your point, but this is not a good example. As long as the undo works, novice and pros alike are safe. No need for acknowledgement of anything other than permanent actions.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 08:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 07, 2021, 07:11:34 pmDon't know, but they did deal with the odd origin in the upper left increasing downward coordinate system. They made it programmable. Huzzah!There is also the issue of the origin of zooms. Some use a fixed origin and others use the mouse position. LTspice can't decide so they do it differently when editing symbols vs schematic. Oh, they are very bizarre with symbols using a fixed center which can be OFF THE SCREEN!!!

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2021, 07:54:55 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on March 06, 2021, 01:53:55 amAs far as I am concerned "free" software when talking about software that use GPL (and similar style) licenses, is about the licensing and source code. Free software licenses refer to the freedom to edit and share the source code. That is the true paradigm shift with software with free and open source licenses. It doesn't matter so much for the individual user if s/he can receive and edit the source code, but for the whole "ecosystem" around the software it matters a lot. I don't mind paying something for the software, for services related to the software, or knowing that I indirectly am funding it as long as I know that the source code is free and that there are willing parties (paid or not) investing in development of the software. Tax money is definitely not wasted on large, open source projects. It benefits everyone in society (and that is the point with taxes). The trend is clear. Lots and lots of companies are investing in free and open source software. They have clearly seen the benefit of sharing the work and not having to build everything from scratch, every time. Complaining that companies get out of business, yeah we have heard that one before. What about horse owners when cars become common? Come on. Companies don't have a god given right to eternally get income from some ancient business model (even though some of them try hard to influence law makers to grant them that right). Now I'm not saying everything should be free software. The world isn't black and white. But where it is beneficial, free and open source software will be used. I'm sure there will always be cases where commercial software is needed. But widely used software tend to benefit from becoming free and open source.BTW, "freeware" is just a trap with more disadvantages than commercial software. E.g. it could be a dead product that doesn't receive updates, so one day you sit there with non-working software and a bunch of designs that can't be ported over to other working software.