Older style Multimeters v Newer ones - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:13:50 pm
content: With the massive on going threads devoted to meters that meet specs, those that don't etc, I can't really help but wonder what about those of us who have been in the industry all their working lives and may, like me reached retirement age, or those that are about to reach that age, and are still using older meters? Are we at great risk of personal injury now because the specs have been increased, should we cease using our old type instruments, despite them having served us well and still in many cases continue to do so?I have in my tool kit the following meters, all now used on my electronics work bench.AnalogueRobin Kew Flat Tester Model 1503, my equivalent to Dave's little pocket meter, crappy leads on it so would not dream of using it on a live 230v circuit, but it is 100k per volt on DC and 10k per volt AC. 1000v AC & DCTMK500 1000v AC&DC, 30k per volt DC and 15k per volt AC, good little meter.TMK700 20k per volt DC but only 4k on AC but voltages up to 5,000 on both DC and AC.AVO8 20k per volt DC, 2k on AC 3,000v AC&DC. This meter was the industry standard for many years for electrical and electronic engineers alike and indeed was written in to the service manuals for many pieces of electronic equipment as the meter that all the voltages were cross referenced to.None of the above have any form of finger guards on the probes and the Avo came with uninsulated croc clips to add to the danger but many of us professionals never had any issues using them at all.DMM'sRobin OM 840, 1,000vDC, 750vAC data hold button but has separate ON/OFF switch.Proster VC97 Auto ranging 1000vDC and 750vAC, data hold button.Bside ADMO80A True RMS, 1,000vDC, 750vAC data hold button (manual ranging)Kikusui 1502 bench meter 1,000vAC and DC.Like so many things, it comes down to due diligence when using any piece of equipment and we are all at the end of the day responsible for our own safety.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:56:16 pm
content: HiI would compare it to modern cars and classic cars. Both will get you from A to B.A modern car is more fuel efficient, more comfertable, have more features and has significant safety features over the classic cars.Yes, diligence is essential in staying safe but there is always the chance you are having a bad day.Should you abandon your old meters?They still work.Are they a safety risk?Modern dmm have better safety. What will hapoen to ine of those old meters if you leave it on Ohms and measure mians voltage?You have tha advantage of a lifetime of skill and experience, some beginners will nit so it is better to help out beginners by advising them to get safe dmms.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:56:52 pm
content: People who have been in the electricity industry for a long time were properly trained when they were young. Buying a meter when they were young was expensive so the meters were taken care of and they were careful that they would not damage the meter.Nowadays, any idiot can by a meter for less money than many magazines so they aren't valued. Not only that, the people using it are not trained and are totatly ignorent of the potential dangers. The only thing that then keeps them safe is the inherent safety of the meter they are using - and if they have spent that little on the meter it probably isn't safe at all.Over the interviening time, people have expected things to shrink and get cheaper so there isn't the room for circuit breakers and you don't find meters in cherrywood boxes anymore.

author: switcher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:44:18 pm
content: ^^ This resonates with me. I was (a very long time ago) properly taught how to use a meter, and other test equipment.Wo-betide anyone who stepped outside the correct procedure for taking a measurement. When you had finished making said measurement, the meter range switch(es) were set to the highet ACV range. Always. I still do this now with my Fluke 8060A, its second-nature.Nowadays, anyone and everyone expect to be able to close their eyes, twiddle a meter to any setting, measure the current in the mains (don't try this at home, kids) and be unconditionally protected from evil.And to answer the OP; I prefer older meters, from back when stuff was made properly.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 09:00:23 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on July 20, 2017, 06:56:52 pmI read stories of people saving up their entire first paycheck so that can buy a Fluke 8060A or 87 (depending on your generation) and then carefully reading the manual, following good procedures, etc and taking care of their first meter.Nowadays, people buy whatever and put in on their credit card, making minimum payments and paying 29% interest and then throwing it away when the meter doesn't work.Fluke, of course, today, has a vested interested in seeing you upgrade. See their reasons why you should upgrade.http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/download/asset/2386856_a_w.pdf"What do you mean, my meter’s obsolete?"

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 09:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 20, 2017, 06:13:50 pmThe risk has not changed, except for the age of the meter and user. You might get senile and forget what you are doing, or something might fail in the meter.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 11:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on July 20, 2017, 09:07:10 pmI doubt that the risk has not changed over the course of the last say 60 years. I am sure some things have improved that have lowed the risk in some areas, while it has increased in others.I continue to embraced new equipment. Not so much from the safety aspect but rather from the ability to do things that I could not just a short time earlier.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 11:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 20, 2017, 06:13:50 pmdont listen to those poisonous thread crap, you only listen if you have something you are not happy with your tools or otherwise have extra time to waste. you are the master of your own tools, its sad you have to question this at your own age and got sucked up by those man-yack.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 12:45:00 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 20, 2017, 11:47:46 pm+1Butmanyack ?Searching for a better word..........Suggestions welcome.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 01:02:12 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 20, 2017, 11:47:46 pmWhat I was doing was taking a sideways swipe at that massive thread by posing a tongue in cheek rhetorical question / statement etc or what ever have you. As others have already pointed out quite rightly in this thread, we were taught correctly back in our day and we were taught to always switch the meter back to the highest AC voltage range before putting it away. I purchased my very own meter many years, it was the TMK500 and it is still like new today, in its leather carrying case, as is my TMK700 and AVO8, the first two I purchased new and the AVO8 is recent purchase secondhand and is not in the same condition as my TMK's although to be fair, not bad condition either, but it certainly hasn't been looked after in the same fashion.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 01:02:27 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 20, 2017, 11:35:24 pmThe potential safety has improved, if you use new equipment, but if you use the same equipment to measure the same thing today, and the only thing that has changed is the passage of time, how is that more risky today than it was 60 years ago? (no quibbling about medical life saving advancements)It's like Russian Roulette, pick up the same old revolver you did 60 years ago and spin the cylinder, you have the same risk despite all the new firearms safety regs, no?Has something else in the environment changed to increase the inherent [lack of] safety in the old gear?

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 01:16:51 am
content: Electronics as a hobby have likely become safer over the years than they were back in the day.Tubes have been replaced by transistors, CRTs have been replaced by LCDs, Fluorescent tubes by LEDs (all of which trade high voltage for "safe" voltages).. unless you're working on mains or power supplies, chances are you don't come across circuits with high voltages often.If you're buying a new handheld DMM, there is a lot of choice for little money now days too. So why not get the safest meter you can get for the money.If you prefer vintage test instruments (I get it, I like some of my old scopes too), then by all means use it. When it comes to DMMs, I am just too spoiled by the new features to go back, although I will from time to time use my 8060a just for the kicks.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 01:30:30 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on July 21, 2017, 01:02:27 amIf all things were the same I agree but that is not going to be the case. Aging infrastructure and increase in demand in of itself may increase the risk.Aging equipment (leads drying out and cracking or wires breaking for example) may increase the risk. I just doubt the risk stays constant.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 01:34:06 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 21, 2017, 01:02:12 amFollowing safety procedures like that becomes second nature; similar to how (most) people who drive a manual transmission always use the parking brake. It bothers menotto do that.In any case I own two Simpson 260s and an assortment of other analog meters I use regularly when I don't need high precision measurements. "Enjoyment of use" is something I value a lot in a tool as long as it meets the other basic requirements, and analog meters provide a lot of it.I wouldn't call a traditional analog VOM "unsafe" just because you can blow it by measuring the resistance of a live circuit. That was a mistake I made once when I was younger, using a meter without any instruction. After the leaking battery and awful smell I figured out what had gone wrong and have always since disconnected the meter whenever changing ranges, and likewise have always started at the highest (reasonable) range and gone down from there.Excepting beginners, if you are careless enough to sweep across ohms or current while connected to a powered circuit I think there are many other things that will get you, outside of a meter.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 03:41:18 am
content: Quote from: switcher on July 20, 2017, 08:44:18 pmIf you are a Fluke 8060A owner, you may find this lengthy read and audio recording interesting?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/Also, there is a good chance, despite taking good care of your meter, that the capacitors in the 8060A are leaking or soon to leak and require replacement.http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 06:26:56 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 21, 2017, 01:02:12 amThose who taught back in the day we also respectful as well. Some of us picked up those traits and I guess some did not.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 09:01:51 am
content: I think it is hard to argue that modern quality meters are not safer than old quality meters. Just like how a modern car with safety belts, airbags and crumple zones is safer than a car produced before there features were common. Is this extra safety necessary? I am sure that part of it is due to risk tolerance: employees getting injured/killed on the job is considered less acceptable and more money is spent (or wasted, depending on your viewpoint) to prevent it. Pretty sure OSHA did not yet exist when many analog meters got designed. Knowledge improves safety, but it not linked to a particular kind of meter: nothing prevents someone with a lot of experience from buying a Fluke 101, and someone who picks up a VOM will not magically become more experienced and careful.Are old meters less safe than a few decades ago? Ageing of materials (e.g. insulation cracking) was already mentioned. I would also expect modern mains circuits to be more noisy, lower impedance (breakers are often higher values, heavier wire gauges) then back when mains wiring was designed for lighting and a single fridge. It would not surprise me if the number of transient events are also higher.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 10:51:02 am
content: Building on what alm and other have said, yes moderm dmms are built with better safety features that may not have even been considered back in the day.Look at Dave's old video where he wontally blows up dmms:How would an old style coil meter survive this kind of transient?Can it happen in real life - probably but the likelyhood is low, very low. After all how often are you probing mains before the fuse box?Interresting point about components aging. The worst components are going to be capacitors.The MOVs/Varistors used in modern dmms actually degrade every time they protect the meter.(Someone just posted about a repair to a Fluke87 where the MOVs had to be replaced).At the end of the day, it is up to the end user.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 12:08:00 pm
content: Now here's the thing with analogue moving coil instruments, the only protection that was afforded to them was fuses and maybe a diode across the coil to take care of transients. They never contained capacitors, all resistors were 1% wirewound or equivalent so there was really nothing to go wrong through aging internally. Leads, yes they can and do age with use if not looked after correctly and can crack etc. But Leads can be replaced with new sets every so often to ensure that the insulation properties are maintained. None of my older TMK meters have ever seen an overload, still have the sames fuses they came with leads are all in 100% perfect condition.Out of my main old style analogues, TMK500, TMK700 and AVO 8 (arguably supposed to be the superior meter and benchmark setter of the 3), it is in my opinion the worst when it comes down to user interface and the associated risks in use. Let me explain my reasons for this, firstly leads for AVO's come in 2 types, the first is with open spades that need to clamped under the terminal posts on the meter, the second with push in enclosed 4mm banana jacks which are the better ones. Both of these then have to have a probe or a croc clip inserted into yet more banana sockets on the end of the leads before the meter is usable. These are weak points in the system, worse still these weak points are by the nature of the socket / plug scenario for the final tool selection, in very close proximity to the operator's hands.The TMK's come with very high quality banana plugs and first class plastic grips that offer extremely high insulation values both at the point of meter connection and probes. If you want to use croc clips then you have to source new set of leads fitted with banana plugs and croc clips, no compromises made there.With regard to aging caps on the older electronic digital meters, that is not a difficult job to do is it?Of course modern meters are inherently far safer, just as modern cars are, but they, like cars come with varying degrees of enhanced safety, but like cars, it doesn't mean that the old gear should be confined to the scrap heap or become museum pieces, it means that like old cars, you treat them with the respect that they deserve and use in safe manner just as they have done for years.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 05:54:38 pm
content: For DMM, CAT rating basically defined what is safe from unsafe for particular usage. It doesn't mean the DMM is non-functional, but in the USA if a workplace injury can be traced to the use of a DMM without CAT rating or improper use of a CAT rated device, the contractor can be held accountable by the Federal gov't.As for using old equipment, reduced safety beyond CAT ratings vary quite a bit because components age at different rates, it roughly depends on how often its used, to usage that causes wear and tear [ heat generators, as well as high voltage and current] and to what environment its exposed too. For example, a lot of metrology grade equipment remains useful despite its age, as there are few wear tear elements its exposed too, e.g. the HP3458A.In the USA, 'useful life' determines the lifespan of most gear to an organization and hence a practical definition of lifespan, here as example:https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/omb/circulars/a076/a076sa3.htmlWhich differs from its real life as a useful tool:http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/useful-life.htmlOf if you or your gov't are concerned about whether hazmats exists in your device, then the China RoHS EFUP labels act as guide to its life to the user:

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 06:33:59 pm
content: Quote from: switcher on July 20, 2017, 08:44:18 pmToo bad the Simpson 260 Transit position is the 500 mA range...I have seen the results of testing 480V with a 260 on the wrong range. With around 100k Amps of available fault current, there wasn't much left. The tech survived but got out of the electrical testing part of the business. He was working out of his pay grade anyway...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 11:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on July 21, 2017, 05:54:38 pmUseful life probably pertains to depreciation schedules for tax purposes. As the document states, "physical life or economic life" will probably differ.So, I might be able to depreciate a high dollar scope over 10 years but since the replacement cost is so high, I am unlikely to replace it. The economic life, and the fact that it still works, probably overrides the economic life.What I probably don't do is replace it the day the depreciation amount goes to zero.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 09:07:34 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 21, 2017, 06:33:59 pmWhere we come to the point that the most dangerous part of the DMM/AMM is the center M-letter in the acronym. That is the word multi and that is not changed.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 09:24:06 am
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on July 20, 2017, 09:00:23 pmSimpson 260 in 1946 ...

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 03:52:56 pm
content: If you had to pay out that much today to replace a meter each time it got destroyed, I think you would think twice about what you was doing and take more care?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 03:58:17 pm
content: Was any thought at all given to input protection, etc., in those old meters?I always got the impression they were just bare circuitry and you were supposed to know what you were doing.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 04:15:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 22, 2017, 03:58:17 pmFor example Simpson Series 7 has 2 (two) fuses in series, one is quick acting Bussman fuse, and also a varistor (MOV) parallel with the meter. Schematic and BOM at last page ->Simpson 260 Series 7 Manual (PDF)

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 04:22:00 pm
content: As I indicated in the 'show your multimeters' thread, I tend to tailor my multimeters in use to the task at hand. There's some I like to use for circuits work and some that are suitable for systems&installations. Then of course it is a question of the secondary capabilities, like min/max etc. Basically, I like to have always an analogue meter and a DMM at hand. Often I go for a passive analogue one, as the lower impedance can come handy to avoid falling for spurious signals. That can range from a Soar pen DMM + the diminutive ICE when to my standard fit of the 'T&M-kit' of a Fluke87 and a Metravo 4H. My main toolcase holds a 78-III and a Metravo 2. My Unigor A43 is currently at my working place, as they had only digital meters and it is a instrument made for radio electronics and communications stuff. I could have taken the 6e, but this one being away more than short-term is akin to asking me if you could borrow my significant other!And while the Metravo 'Gang of Fours' (4S, 4H, 4E) and my Unigors aren't exactly new, they are quite well protected electrically.And I already told of the definite high-tech company, where veritable herds of the old, black! Siemens Multizet's are kept and used as secondary instruments in complex setups. They are class 1, completely passive and they won't die. When used with the necessary knowledge, any instrument can do valuable work as long as it is not derelict.

author: Dwaine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 05:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on July 21, 2017, 05:54:38 pmAs someone that has worked at Workplace Safety organization. I want everyone to use the most modern and safety certified DMM. I 100% support Dave on his teardowns and completely regard a meter as utter garbage after 1 second of looking at the piss poor input protection and leads. Once you see the impact of injuries on people lives. Safety design, ratings and certifications are the only thing that matters. Accuracy and resolution important? No. Great display and black light important? No. Cheap price with lots of functionality? No.You have to assume that any existing DMM will someday be hooked up to mains power at some point of time.

author: cjs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 06:11:07 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 22, 2017, 03:52:56 pmNope. A lot of the people I meet wouldn't be taking any care of a multimeter at all because if I told them they need to spend $400 on a meter to get started in electronics they'd just go find another hobby.So whenver you're giving advice like this, just ask yourself, what's the price point where you're going to tell someone interested in trying out Arduino or whatever that he shouldn't do so because he doesn't want to pony up the minimum amount of cash for the equipment you feel is necessary?

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 06:19:53 pm
content: Quote from: cjs on July 22, 2017, 06:11:07 pmFor example I would definitely not be doing anything at all if it was required to have a $400 multimeter. Thankfully, it's not. But the necessary equipment also depends on the project you're trying to make. So, only when you notice you need a function that only exists in an expensive piece of equipment - or the specific accuracy level only provided by such equipment - you have a need to at least think whether or not you could find a way to afford it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 06:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 22, 2017, 04:15:51 pmAt a quick glance of the schematic, connect leads to the +10A and -10A inputs. Apply high energy source....One lead on the 50uA, switch range to 1mA. Set function switch to DC. Second lead to Positive. Apply high energy source....One lead on -10A, switch range to Rx10K. Set function switch to FC+ and attach second lead to Positive. Make sure battery B2 is installed. Apply high energy source....

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 06:46:43 pm
content: The chances of a fused $15 multimeter (eg. the new AN8008) being directly responsible for serious injury in a CAT II environment are very small. Probably smaller than driving a car. If you're mostly working with Arduinos and stuff the risk from such a meter is negligible.There's always people who want to try to eliminate all risk at any cost but they usually aren't spending their own money.That said, if I see you working with mains electricity on a regular basis I'd try to convince you to get a $42 Fluke 101 instead of a $15 meter.$400? That's aluxurymeter, not anessentialmeter.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:46:00 pm
content: Quote from: cjs on July 22, 2017, 06:11:07 pmYou need to read this in conjunction with post #23, to which I was referring. Would you not agree then that a Simpson meter is a class act? Class acts cost lots of money and would you really require an expensive piece of equipment just dabble with some Arduinos that are really cheap and do not pose any threats of likely high energy faults. Therefore you could get away comfortably with a cheap $25 meter or maybe less than that in reality.I would love to own and drive a Bentley car, I'd also love to surround myself with the very latest and best in test gear, full of functions that I'd never need or use and of course by their very nature would be the safest on the market, except for one thing, I couldn't afford to pay for it all so I can't.Dave has a blog on setting up a basic electronics lab for $350 and that includes meters and everything else required to get started, you wont find any high end or high safety rated devices there but with care will get anyone started in electronics and then they can replace with better items as they can afford to do so. I'm perfectly sure that Dave and these other people with these well equipped labs had start off with very basic items in the first instance?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 07:31:46 am
content: Quote from: Dwaine on July 22, 2017, 05:49:15 pmWell, that's a perspective. For a commercial electrician who rarely sees anything under 100 Vac or circuits smaller than 15 A, it's applicable.For someone that works on digital logic where 5Vdc is considered a high voltage and sub-watt power is the norm, it is not applicable, and accuracy and resolution are much more important than safety. I'm not sure what an unsafe multimeter would look like at 3.3V; maybe one with sharp edges?Quote from: Dwaine on July 22, 2017, 05:49:15 pmBeing safety focused is a laudable goal and I am not trying to discourage an active consideration of safety where electricity is concerned, but I think a lot of people go too far and make residential CAT II 120-240Vac out to be some sort of boogeyman. I think it is great that modern multimeters have all this built in protection, but in a non-commercial hobbyist setting, even a somewhat inexpensive multimeter is most likely the safest device in the room compared to all the cheap USB chargers, questionably "double insulated" DVD players, toaster ovens with "value engineered" cords, etc. Most consumer devices have little to no concept of input protection beyond a (usually non-HRC, in North America) fuse, and from design to assembly a lot of the decisions made are not exactly safety centric. According to the multimeter-universe rules people should be dying left and right.Treated respectfully, residential mains isn't too bad; certainly not the monster people make it out to be. With AFCIs and "tamper resistant" outlets now being mandated in code, you even have to go through some effort to scorch things.On the other hand, commercial electric work with CAT III sources and up is a completely different story. 480Vac arc flash is an incredible force, and I've seen the results in person. Not something to play around with. ElectroBOOM wouldn't be able to get away with what he does at 480V; if someone did that sort of thing at 480V or above I think about the best they could hope for would be to lose an arm. But is that really what we are talking about here? I can't see an entry level hobbyist buying their first multimeter and finding some 3 phase bus bar to go probe or trying to grappling hook an overhead power line.I think we're at the level of safety now, more or less across the board, where danger comes from bad decision making rather than unexpected equipment failures. That's the point at which I would call equipment "safe," for my own purposes. Companies can and do make multimeters that protect people from bad decision making (e.g. sweeping across the dial while still connected), which I think is an amazing feat of design. But the only way that would makepeoplesafe is if all they ever did was probe things with a multimeter. I have to expect that people interested in electronics (or working in an electrical profession) do more than just probe things all day. You aren't going to make a wire that protects itself from becoming a short, or a capacitor that stops someone from soldering it in backwards. If people can't be trusted not to try and measure across two 480Vac bus bars on the 10A range, even if it's just because they're tired and having a bad day, I think something is going to get them sooner or later even if it isn't their meter.In the case of 480Vac arc flash I saw, someone just wired a short into a piece of switchgear because they misunderstood the diagram. It blew the 5' front panel off of the switch, and if they had been standing a foot closer it would have taken them with it. They had a perfectly safe modern multimeter, but neither the terminals nor the wire said "sorry Dave, I can't do that" when they were being torqued down.In my opinion, equipment free from unexpected failures and a working mind are what are necessary for safety, and I think many analog meters are capable of serving in that role. If I were doing commercial electric work professionally, of course I would use something explicitly CAT rated for the purpose from a reputable manufacturer. But low voltage hobbyists are in the position of reasonably being able to use whatever they want or can afford.Oddly enough I do have a safety rated analog multimeter, theSimpson 260-9SP, CAT III 600V rated. Orange meter in the orange case below:I would comfortably use anything in that photo to measure up to 240Vac mains, including the small Triplett pocket meter, although it's probably not one I would recommend to someone else for the purpose. I would only use the 87V or the orange Simpson for CAT III work above 240V. The yellow banana in front of the meters is a Fluke C9970 (formerly known as the Western Electric 188A) for checking whether something is live (up to 20kVAC) which is something I prefer not to use a meter for if I can avoid it.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 11:15:24 am
content: Quote from: Dwaine on July 22, 2017, 05:49:15 pmNo, thats like saying that you have to assume that every car will at some point in its life be driven flat out on a race track and so has to be built so that it can survive being driven like a racecar.Before starting work on anything, you should do a risk assessment and part of that assessment is making sure that you have the right equipment for the job and the right skill set.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 02:33:36 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on July 20, 2017, 06:56:16 pmThis analogy falls apart because many newer meters cannot make measurements that old meters make just fine. I keep my old TM500 Tektronix meters around and in good repair because their linear JFET input stages produce no charge pumping making them very useful as a sanity check when my more modern meters return funny results like showing a 10 megohm shunt resistance as a drifty 1 megohm.QuoteMy old DMMs handle line voltage overload on the ohms modes just fine. Obviously old meters are not certified to the CAT standards but the CAT standards did not exist then. They may or may not meet them just like modern meters may or may not meet them despite what they say.I miss having exposed binding posts which could directly attach wires and parts on bench meters. Is that safer than having the user attach an external banana plug which can pull lose?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 02:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 22, 2017, 03:58:17 pmFor analog meters there is not much that could be done simply because their input impedance is so much lower. I was trained to make unknown voltage measurements starting from the high ranges to prevent meter damage.Old DMMs mostly have the same input protection that modern DMMs have. Vacuum tube and JFET input voltmeters can also be well protected for the same reason; the high input impedance input stage allows it.

author: switcher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 03:01:13 pm
content: I really cannot understand why people are so obsessive over CAT ratings, for meters for hobby use.Most DMMs and DVMs, that are used by both hobbyists, and electronic engineers (I count myself in both categories) are used to make DC voltage and resistance checks on low voltage, low energy equipment.Where I work, I am not allowed to work on main switchgear, or on anything 'mains' - I have no need (nor do I want to). The Techs who are; are suitably equipped (and qualified) to do so. They are not allowed to use multimeters of any sort. They have to use a CAT IV tester, such as a Martindale:-http://martindale-electric.co.uk/martindale-vi-15000-voltage-indicator-p-1870.htmlAt home, in my electronics hobby, I have no need, or desire, to measure mains voltage; its either there or its not.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 03:17:55 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 23, 2017, 02:33:36 pmPrecisely and going back to the car analogy again, this is the same sort of thing regarding the mandatory seat belt, stability control, ABS braking etc etc etc, all of these you expect to have a on a modern car by law but you still see loads of classic cars in use all over the world. I don't believe that you would be able to license these classic cars for things like taxi work for example because they don't meet regulations for carrying fare paying passengers.

author: hexreader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 04:03:55 pm
content: Avo 8 is highly desirable to many older repair technicians. If it is in good condition, then either keep it if you like it, or sell it at a good price (no idea what that might be).There are a few handy tricks that can be done with Avo 8 that won't work with a digital meter.Do not bin a working Avo 8.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 06:03:55 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 23, 2017, 03:17:55 pmI *hate* the ABS brakes on my GMC pickup. Not only do they not fulfill their purpose by activating when they should not and not improving control when they do activate, but the design compromises made to include them mean that if the engine dies, the brakes fail (1) once the vacuum reservoir is emptied which is practically immediately. How could that possibly be safer? I am sure the rent seeking is profitable for GMC though. The mandatory power steering is not much better.My previous vehicles which lacked power steering and ABS were much easier to control under adverse conditions.(1) When I say fail, I mean it is no longer possible to even stop motion on an incline and that is with 200+ pounds pushing on the brake pedal. Except for the ABS, they work fine when the engine is running and GMC confirmed that this is normal. WTF?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 06:08:04 pm
content: Quote from: switcher on July 23, 2017, 03:01:13 pmThe situation reminds me of what did companies did before certified X and Y class line interference suppression capacitors existed. They voltage derated existing capacitors, qualified them for line applications, and used them.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 07:59:55 pm
content: Quote from: hexreader on July 23, 2017, 04:03:55 pmThanks, I intend to keep it, although I do feel a bit let down by it after all years of waiting to acquire one, compared to the TMK 700 it seems to so cumbersome and clunky and the lead interface is rather odd and can introduce unnecessary resistance and weak links in the chain compared to most meters.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 08:48:03 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 23, 2017, 07:59:55 pmHave you got all the lead types and all the connection accessories ?The grabber (like a scope probe) is my most valued as it allows hands free use.Much better than the bulldog clips which are next to useless for any compact modern DUT.I've got a few sets of what seem to be pirate leads......stiff PVC, horrible to use compared to the genuine AVO leads which BTW AFAIK were always branded.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 10:45:15 pm
content: No I havent, just got the standard leads (push on type) with 2 sets of probes and a set of the bulldog clips which don't seem to fit the bill IMO. It did come with just one of the scope type grabbers, a red one, need a black one to make a pair though.I think it would be a far better meter if the probes and leads was a single item, but it would make a set of leads so much more expensive but far safer to use.