Rigol DS1054Z rotary encoder mod *works!* - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 02:40:10 pm
content: As we know, selecting values or chars with the rotary encoder knob on the 1054Z and similar is a pain.Can't we change the rotary encoder with one that has these stepping grid? Sorry, I dont't know the correct words for that, I'm german. But I'm sure you know what I mean :-)Update: its working, see Reply #4

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 02:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: Penguin36 on August 19, 2015, 02:40:10 pmDetented

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 02:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 19, 2015, 02:53:26 pmThanks :-)

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 01:35:42 pm
content: Depends on whether Rigol are counting all four edges of the encoder waveform or not.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:23:47 pm
content: So, I gave it a try, changed the rotary encoder with a detented type. This is working without problems :-)Very nice selecting menu options, selecting chars, and NO jumping when pressing the button!I will describe the mod in short time, if you like ....

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: Penguin36 on August 20, 2015, 08:23:47 pmIt would be rude if you didn't.Pics too please.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 20, 2015, 08:26:59 pmSure, maybe a video. Stay tuned please.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 02:45:43 am
content: Nice to know... but...Since I seem to have sensitive fingers ("Safe Cracker Mode") I don't find the stock setup particularly hard to use.Since your modification obviously voids your manufacturer's warranty, I think I'll wait until my warranty period has run out before I change anything inside the scope. (I appreciate your performing the experiment though... it's always better to learn from someone else's mistakes, or successes, before risking a warranty, I say.)But then, I'm not bothered by the fan "noise" either, since I can't hear it over all the other equipment fans running in my laboratory/bedroom. (I even bought a quieter fan for my scope before it was delivered, based on all the complaints I read here. Imagine my chagrin when I discovered the actual fan noise was not bad at all. From all the complaints about the fan, I expected something like a leaf-blower noise. The quiet fan still sits in its original box...)(If I need to enter some long string of information, like the "unlock" code, I do it using SCPI commands via telnet over the LAN connection, and I copy-paste from a text file where I know I have the proper sequence stored.)

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:56:45 am
content: Congrats, I think your the first person to modify the scope. Two thumbs up if it's still under warranty.And seriously I do applaud people who make stuff their own.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 06:36:41 am
content: Sure you will loose warranty!But for me, I don't really care. Its not that expensive to buy a new one. Its not a x1000$ scope!But anyway, the mod is very simple. You just need to get the right rotary encoder. I had some ALPS encoder laying around, different types. The best one for operation is the EC11 with 15 dents. One EC11 with 18 dents is not working with the scope. And a EC12 with 24 dents is working too. One or two downsides of the EC11/15: the bush button is very hard to push, and the shaft is not flat.So I will do some testing.

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 07:56:48 am
content: That's a very nice mod!Another thing that I would do while still in there: increase the value of the current-limiting resistor for the red LED behind the 'start/stop' button - imo it's way too bright and distracting.Actually, I don't mind that encoder at all - while selecting values and stuff is not very comfortable, it's quite convenient for adjusting cursors, intensity, etc. I'm a bit more frustrated with the encoders with detents on this scope that tend to miss a step sometimes. The thing is - you can leave the knob is sort of a 'half-step' position and when you turn it you will actually feel the click, but the step won't be registered.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 10:10:33 am
content: Quote from: Tainer on August 21, 2015, 07:56:48 amFor me, moving cursors with the detented encoder is much nicer and accurate, good acceleration. And I don't like to select menu options using the soft keys. I always 'overshoot' the wanted menu option using the original encoder, like triggers or decoders. And if I got the right option and press the encoder for OK, it jumps one option up or down most of the time.Now thats gone, 1 step on the rotary encoder is 1 jump in menus. Pushing the encoder button for OK never changes the value or option, selected item just stays there. Spinning it faster, steps are bigger. Changing values is better now too.But thats my opinion.BTW, the brightness auf the LED is ok for me. Fan sucksAhh, and yes, I will cover the LEDs for SG and LA. Hey, I can see them for 1-2 sec at boot up

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 10:28:24 am
content: Quote from: Penguin36 on August 21, 2015, 10:10:33 amIn that case I'll definitely consider this mod. They probably should have used a dented encoder for this knob in the first place, price difference couldn't be that significant. Can you give a link for the digikey part?As for the fan - I wonder if it will be good enough to simply slow it down (i.e. put a series resistor with a fan).

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:14:31 am
content: Quote from: Tainer on August 21, 2015, 10:28:24 amSorry, no partnumber for the encoder. I bought mine on ebay some time ago. Description only tells Alps EC11 or EC12 with dents value.I will try to find out what part number matches.But you can measure the original encoder with scope or LA to get the right one.I will change the fan with a quieter one as described in other threads. A resistor will also help, but be sure the fan still starts at lower voltage. I know the stock fan is sucking the air through the scope from right to left, blowing through metal and plastic cutouts in the case. The 'air-noise' is higher than using this fan outside the case. I wonder if it is more quiet when changing the airflow direction.Will try this later.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:36:49 am
content: Nice to know that the knob can easily be replaced if the original one breaks.Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 21, 2015, 02:45:43 amBut "not particularly hard" isn't the same as "easy". I bet you still occasionally manage to turn the knob 0.1 degrees when you're pushing it, giving a bad selection.The whole thing has a ridiculously easy software fix IMHO - just allow people to press the grey menu button to accept a menu choice after you turn the knob.(And bonus points for letting us move up/down inside a menu using the blue up/down arrow buttons).

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 02:44:57 pm
content: I uploaded a quick video on youtube showing some features of the scope after the rotary encoder mod.http://youtu.be/FnQcSKzWOxs

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 05:14:27 pm
content: Very nice, now I want to mod my ds2000 one, but I'm going on vacation so it must wait.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 07:05:01 pm
content: *Awesome* I just did this mod on my MSO1074Z-S, I had some rotary encoders in stock perfect for the job, RS part # 6234237, ALPS EC12E2424407http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mechanical-rotary-encoders/6234237It fits mechanically and electrically perfectly. The shaft is the perfect length too.Took me dead on an hour, I might have saved time had I not tried to start removing the main PCB, that can remain screwed in, once you've taken off the steel cover, just remove the remaining steel structure from the front panel with the eight or so self tappers. You only need to remove one flat flex from the main PCB, the one by the rear BNC(s) to be able to remove the keyboard/knob PCB. Desoldering the rotary encoder's ground lugs will take a decent iron as they are soldered to the board's ground plane. I desoldered the five electrical contacts first with a suction desoldering iron, then eased the rotary encoder out one lug at a time: trying to use desolder braid proved largely fruitless.Again, a great mod, makes a real difference, very effective.

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 07:55:56 pm
content: Nice mod! Can't wait to do this mod when my warranty runs out.Rigol probably saved $0.10 using a non-detented encoder vs. the stock in there right now. That knob always bothered me why it's not detented. It should have been in the first place.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 08:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 22, 2015, 05:14:27 pmThe quick and cheap mod is the infamous "Rigol knob swap".Swap with one of the bigger knobs to gain better control.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 10:01:03 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 22, 2015, 08:28:41 pmI agree this ten second fix does improve the situation somewhat, but it never cured it, this detented rotary encoder mod nails it though.

author: soren
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 11:34:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 22, 2015, 08:28:41 pmAnyone know a source for buying the bigger knobs?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 01:11:06 am
content: Quote from: soren on August 22, 2015, 11:34:11 pmI guess you can try with one of the existing ones, but I would not bother. My frustration is when I press to select something and it selects the next/previous item, not sure the bigger knob would prevent this.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 01:55:04 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 23, 2015, 01:11:06 amExactly this^^^^^^Try it, they just pull off, push on.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 02:14:47 am
content: Excellent mod, the DS1054Z just begs to have this installed.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 03:34:14 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 11:36:49 amLet's see... waste a couple of seconds by not being careful when pushing the knob and having to re-select the correct item.... vs. voiding the manufacturer's warranty, spending _at least_ an hour taking apart, removing and replacing the encoder and reassembling the scope _if_ you are really skillful, and a lot more if you aren't .... You guys crack me up!!How much time do you "pro-modders" actually have, using your 1054z scopes, I wonder? I've used mine for at least several hours every day since it was delivered back in April. I've gotten pretty good at selecting the item I actually want, with the little knob and the detent-less stock encoder. Practice makes perfect!If you want to "make it yours", then put a Hello Kitty sticker on it !!If it ain't broke, fix it until it IS broke !!

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 06:19:54 am
content: Come on, its a thread about modding a knobIt you like it, do it. It not, use the knob as it is!I prefer a Batman stickerBTT, the partnumber I used is Alps STEC12E08.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 06:46:44 am
content: Knob size is critical for the relationship with your scope.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 10:06:14 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 23, 2015, 03:34:14 amPersonally speaking I find it quite an irritation, it's something to get in the way of my workflow.The warranty sticker was liberated the first day I received this scope!Yes, I do like modding stuff, but equally I respect your wish not to void your warranty, and your ability at being able to nail the knob with your safe cracking skills, it's something I've been unable to do consistently I'm afraid. So for me, it was broke enough for me to want to fix it.I'm supposedly semi-retired, so yes, I guess you could say I have plenty of time, but it doesn't feel like it!Live and let live I guess.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 11:19:52 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 23, 2015, 03:34:14 amBoo hoo, he voided he warranty. You seem to be obsessed with this particular scope, to the point that you're taking it personally that he's modifying it. You should try to relax a little. Most of us aren't going to worry about a warranty on a crappy, sub $400 scope. It's practically disposable.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 11:59:36 am
content: Shame on me, I changed the fan of the scope too. For ME the stock fan is way to loud. I changed it with a Fractal Design FD-FAN-SSR2-50 R2. It blows less air, but my scope didn't get warmer the last 10 hours than before. I can still hear the fan, but its much quieter now

author: soren
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 12:33:14 am
content: I just replaced the menu encoder in my DS1054Z with this Alps part, which I suspect is the same that others used:http://www.reichelt.de/index.html?ARTICLE=73923The base is slightly taller than the factory part, which doesn't cause problems except that the knob extends a bit further. Since it's plastic the shaft could easily be trimmed if desired.Even though the shaft is the same nominal size as the original (metal) shafts, the knob doesn't grip it properly. I added a tiny amount of blu-tack and that solved the problem.It gives 24 pulses per revolution rather than the 20 of the original, but that doesn't make it feel "too fast" at all. Also, the detents are firmer than the stock encoders with detents.I'd still like to know if someone has seen a seller of the knobs in case one is needed.

author: Gary.M
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 02:47:44 am
content: That ALPs part looks to be EC12E2424407 . Google returns quite a few suppliers.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 07:26:10 am
content: Quote from: Gary.M on September 03, 2015, 02:47:44 amSee:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-rotary-encoder-mod/msg737852/#msg737852

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 09:16:47 am
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on August 23, 2015, 11:19:52 amLet me address your points one at a time.First, he voided the warranty. When I received my _first_ DS1054z, after several days of operation I found that the scope developed a bad glitch in one channel, and I had to return it for a warranty replacement. Had I done something like changing out an encoder or replacing the fan, I might have been "sol" as they say. I even bought a quiet fan, and had it all ready to install based on the reports from sensitive users on this forum... imagine my surprise when I found out that the scope is actually quieter than my computer, my power supply, and my airconditioner. I'm glad I didn't replace the fan before the first scope started glitching and had to be returned.Second, I am not "obsessed" enough to want to change an encoder simply because I can't control my fingers well enough to select the item I want to select! I use the scope daily and you can look at the screenshot I attached below to see just how I do use it. I have also used it enough to uncover several severe bugs, which I have reported to Rigol. Obsessed? No, just a real _user_ of the scope, who wants it to work properly and who would like to be able to return it under warranty if it does not. And I certainly don't "take it personally"... I think it's hilarious, that's all. I do rather take the accusation of being "obsessed" personally though.Third, "most of us" apparently can afford simply to write off 400 dollars.... well, fine, but I can't. One wonders why these wealthy people have bought this "crappy sub $400" scope to begin with, if they are in such a great financial position that they can risk buying a "crappy, practically disposable" oscilloscope in the first place. Why didn't they buy a "real" scope from Agilent or LeCroy, if the money means that little to them?Hey, it's your scope, modify it if you want. I just think it's pretty silly to spend an hour of your valuable time, plus the cost of the encoder, to change something on your crappy, practically disposable, under $400 scope to begin with, when the fault that is being "fixed" isn't in the scope, but rather is in the user.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 12:49:55 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on September 03, 2015, 09:16:47 amRubbish. I've owned a DS1054Z since release and the rotary encoder STILL catches me out at least once every time I use it. It's not a PEBKAC, it's a design flaw. Rotary encoders without detents just shouldn't be used for menus if the shaft push button is being used for selecting the current item. It's made worse by the menu lag so you tend to 'fly around' until you land on the correct item and then you have no idea if you are right on the edge of a position and some tiny amount of additional rotation is going to make it skip to the next menu item while you press the shaft button in. Sure you can increase you chances of mis-selecting items by rotating it as slow as a snail so you have some idea that you are in the center of a position while you press the button, or be super careful not to rotate the knob while you press it in but either method is more frustrating than if it just had detents in the first place. Adding detents solves all problems entirely.The fact that I have probably wasted all of 3 minutes of my life so far accidentally selecting the wrong thing doesn't mean that it hasn't already cost me 1hr+ in reduced productivity from frustration. Therefore, it is worth spending an hour and a few dollars doing the mod if I plan to keep the scope for another few years. I'm pretty confident that my unit isn't going to die in the arse tomorrow since it has been going well so far, so voiding the warranty is a risk that I and others would be prepared to take at this stage.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 03:26:33 pm
content: I think Rigol could easily fix the biggest encoder-related annoyance (wrong selection because the knob is inadvertently turned while pressing it) in software: Just ignore any encoder changes that occur within xx milliseconds before the button is pressed.But I still like the idea of an encoder with detents, which gives you direct haptic feedback: One detent click equals one step in the menu. I guess I will give the modification a try at some time. Question to those who have already implemented the mod: Do the detents get distracting when you have to spin the knob many times, for the analog parameter selections?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 03:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 03, 2015, 03:26:33 pmEven better: Make it so you can press the menu button to make a selection as well as the encoder.ie. Push 'menu', twiddle knob, push 'menu' again.

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 03:46:35 pm
content: I need to do something like this to my DP832A. It's like the steps on the encoder are about 1/3 of a step out of phase with the detents and makes it impossible to move voltage or current up/down one notch at a time because every 3rd or 4th turn it skips a digit. Really infuriating.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 03:50:01 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on September 03, 2015, 09:16:47 amMany have done. I know I did. But I also wanted a scope for field work, and for that the Rigol fits the bill in terms of portability, features and disposability.QuoteAnd yet you were prepared to spend money on a replacement fan, and a similar amount of time doing the replacement?QuoteExactly, could not agree more! Relax! O0

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 06:07:31 pm
content: Surely the wise thing to do is after a few months of fairly intensive use and you feel confident then pick up the soldering iron and do modifications. If after those original few months of use you no longer feel it necessary don't do any modifications. My view of this modification is that I will consider it for the future as I do agree the delivered encoder could be improved upon. This mod does provide a useful way of avoiding a slightly annoying finger trouble for those of us with larger fingers! With regard to the fan mod, as it was mentioned, just holding your hand to the left side of the scope creates a large drop in noise level if you deflect the airflow to the rear so one could improve things without opening the case. Not necessarily a pretty solution though!Regarding the throw away 'Crap scope' obviously some have money to burn I do not. This scope provides so much for the price range and is not really intended for high level professional use. If you have a burning need for more precision then you pay the price but look at what you can do with this scope and be happy.John

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 10:57:16 pm
content: Quote from: JohnPen on September 03, 2015, 06:07:31 pmI own one of these too. I have twin 16 months old girls. Believe me, I don't have money to burn. It fits what I need at a great price. I'm going to stand by my statement though...it's kind of a crappy scope. If I was back in a real lab, I probably would have flung it across the room on day one out of frustration...much of it centered around how alternately touchy and sluggish the knobs are. They did a TERRIBLE job on that interaction. I can't imagine they can't fix most of this in the firmware. Doesn't anyone over at Rigol know how to do proper velocity/acceleration control interactions? It's really stupid that they behave like this. Sometimes it takes dozens of turns to get to where I'm going, and other times I breathe heavy and the pointer moves. Come on.But for less than $400, it's an amazing steal, especially considering the display which is VERY good IMHO, and for occasional/hobbyist/light/whatever use, there's just nothing else like it anywhere near this price range...but I'm not going to worry about some stupid warranty on it, especially if it makes working with it easier.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 11:08:13 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on September 03, 2015, 10:57:16 pmEncoder velocity control is just a few lines of code in a home PIC/AVR based project. So no, they do not know. And yes, they are stupid.

author: SimonD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 07:37:19 am
content: Hi Bud,because i' m very interested about this application (encoder velocity) and appears to have dealt with it,is it easy to give an example for PIC ? (or the idea behind that ?)Thanks in advanceSimon

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 03:06:26 am
content: I was going to suggest putting an AVR between the encoder and their PCB to add acceleration yourself, but that still doesn't guarantee that their code is polling the encoder fast enough for that to work.

author: michaeliv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 05:33:14 am
content: I replaced my encoder with this one :http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-Arrival-3Pcs-6mm-D-Shaft-18-Position-360-Degree-Rotary-Encoder-w-Push-Button/32338458200.htmlIt's working fine in menus ( selecting triggering source for example ), but works in reverse when modifying values (increasing intensity, I2C trigger address, etc) - as in if I rotate it forward it actually decrements the value. Also, it's quite a bit taller than the original one.Does anyone have a link where a matching rotary encoder can be purchased from ( deliverable to US ).BTW how are people desoldering the rotary encoder ? For me it was a HUGE hassle & I ended up damaging the rotary encoder because I had trouble desoldering it.Tip: Before installing the rotary encoder, I disassembled it and desensitized the clicking membrane to actuate around 180 grams-force instead of the default ~680 grams-force - this made a huge improvement in usability.

author: michaeliv
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 07:56:49 am
content: I also did a fan mod while I had the scope open. I put a 165R resistor in series with it & attached it to the case using double sided tape( as opposed to screws ). The double sided tape makes a huge difference when it comes to noise. The scope is almost completely silent now even with nothing else running.After a few hours of runtime the scope seems 5c-10c hotter. Should I be worried? Could this cause any issues / shorter lifespan ?

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 10:49:32 am
content: Quote from: michaeliv on September 05, 2015, 07:56:49 amProbably nothing immediate, but you're just going to cook the electrolytics and shorten their life. I would get rid of the resistor for sure.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 11:16:32 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on September 03, 2015, 09:16:47 amThe issue here is not one of people being able to afford it and happy to write it off, it's one of calculated risk.What are the odds of something going wrong with your scope within the first 12 months? It's actually pretty low, maybe a few percent tops. That's a low enough risk for most people to take the chance and modify their scope.QuoteSome people just like optimising things. Nothing wrong with that.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 11:21:46 am
content: Quote from: fivefish on August 22, 2015, 07:55:56 pmEncoders with and without detents cost the same.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 06:00:16 pm
content: Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 03:46:35 pmI learned all about how crappy most Asian rotary encoders are with or without detents, they just raise additional problems.I guess as some have stated lots of driver tweaking could probably save the day. However on my arduino experiments with encoders I came across a NOS optical encoder and what a difference. No having to deal with contact bounce. Firm but continuous knob torque. Night and day.So while I don't yet have this DSO (yet, I'm an old analog scope guy) if I wanted to really improve the encoders I would swap them out with magnetic or optical encoders.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 08:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: michaeliv on September 05, 2015, 05:33:14 amThe ALPS EC12E2424407 part I used works in the correct sense for intensity, I2C address etc.The knob extends about 0.5mm further out than the others with he ALPS part: it's a plastic shaft so easily filed down slightly if aesthetically you can't cope with that: if you didn't know you wouldn't notice it, I haven't bothered.It does apparently have slightly less push force than the others knobs too.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 02:51:19 am
content: Did mine today, used Alps EC12E2424407 as previously suggested. I only changed the menu encoder as the others rarely give me grief. I noticed that the shaft was about 0.75mm longer than the original encoder so I filed it down so it was exactly the same length before installing it. What i didn't notice was that the flat side of the Alps encoder shaft doesn't extend as far down as on the original, so the knob sat about 1mm proud. At this point I had the scope mostly back together and decided it was too hard/risky to try to modify the shaft with it mounted in the scope so I ground down the stop inside the knob instead which worked perfectly. It is sooo much nicer to use now, you'll wonder why you didn't think to do this earlier! Even the menu lag issue is mitigated slightly - if you want to go up 3 times then you just need to count 3 detents instead of arbitrarily turning it and having to watch the screen. Obviously, there is a software polling speed so if you turn it very quickly it'll miss some of the detents.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 08:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: TMM on September 08, 2015, 02:51:19 amYes! The far better usability is worth the mod :-)

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 09:21:27 am
content: Quote from: TMM on September 08, 2015, 02:51:19 amFWIW, I measured the knob protrusion difference on mine with a feeler gauge and the new Alps one is 0.55mm (22mil) prouder.Whether it's worth taking a file to it or not I'd guess is up to the beholder, I haven't done it, but never say never!

author: fc12
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 09:08:36 pm
content: Thanks to Howardlong and Penguin36 for finding the part number. Bought it weeks ago for 5 Pounds in UK. Today I finally had the time (and courage) to replace the encoder and it works like a charm. Unsoldering took some time and plenty of leaded solder.Now that the fan is silenced with a resistor (6V instead of 12V) and the menu button annoyance is resolved, the scope is perfect (for me).Daniel

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 10:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 23, 2015, 03:34:14 amAccording to the warranty contract only "Repairedby anyone who is not from RIGOL Maintenance Center or an authorized maintenance branch" will void the warranty. So this means that opening up your scope and making modification to it does not void the warranty, because you are not repairing the equipment, you are making modifications to it. In fact, making modifications is protected under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. They can only deny repair coverage if, they can prove, your modifications are the cause of the problem with the equipment.http://www.rigolna.com/warranty/

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 10:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: fc12 on November 04, 2015, 09:08:36 pmI didn't really do anything other than affirm that Penguin36's mod works, and I was lucky enough to have the right encoders in stock. Interestingly, while using the scope recently I'd completely forgotten I'd done the mod, I'd become so used to it: it'd be interesting to see how I felt about the scope if I undid it again! Equally, I'd not even noticed the 0.55mm additional excursion of the knob either, so as a result I won't be filing it down now I guess.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 08:02:12 pm
content: I guess there's no harm in bumping this thread on a very helpful modification up again... Modified my DS1054Z today, with the same encoder suggested before (ALPS EC12E2424407). I can just second that the rotary knob is much easier to use for me now!It's not just avoiding the sporadic additional step when pushing the button -- I had reasonable control over that, but it did happen often enough to be annyoing. But you also get nice haptic feedback when you want to rotate the knob a defined number of steps, e.g. when stepping down two channels while selecting the trigger input. Registering (counting?) the clicks happens totally unconsciously, but for me is much more pleasant than having to observe the display to see when the right selection has been reached.On the other hand, the detents are subtle enough, so they don't become annoying when one has to rotate the knob several times. Overall, a highly recommended mod!As a side note -- while I had the scope disassembled, I noticed that the screen is indeed protected by a glass plate, not plastic. I recall that this was debated in some other thread a while ago. A decent thickness too (approx. 2.5 mm), so Rigo did not skimp on this. Makes me feel better about having the scope directly on my desk, rather than on a shelf, while working with a soldering iron...

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 11:31:33 pm
content: I also did this mod to a 1074z-s - totally worth doing, especially with the AWG.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 07:54:19 pm
content: Would be nice if someone took the time to include photos of the steps they took to disassemble it and what security bits are required, might be easier to decide if the effort/risk is worth it.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 08:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on May 09, 2016, 07:54:19 pmNo photos, bit I did make some notes herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-rotary-encoder-mod/msg737852/#msg737852Pretty sure there're plenty of video teardowns of this scope (or derivatives) about.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 09:17:32 pm
content: I can add that the Rigol PCB is of very nice quality and that desoldering the original encoder is pretty easy with any kind of solder sucker(including the manual kind).Also, I did file down the shaft on the new encoder 0.5mm so the knob sits exactly the same as the original.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 09:25:04 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on May 09, 2016, 09:17:32 pmI wonder if AvE has done the mod on his DS1054Z with one of his two dozen angle grinders?

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 02:53:24 pm
content: Today I also applied this mod to my 1054Z.Quite happy with the results.While removing the keyboard PCB, I was a bit surprised to see on the back side an ASIC to handle the few keys, LEDs and encoders that are present on the board. I was expecting a more low level uC for that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 03:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: bitwelder on May 21, 2016, 02:53:24 pmI might have a go when my official guarantee runs out. I'd be interested in adding a separate push button for menu selection as well.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 09:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 21, 2016, 03:48:31 pmGive the detented encoder a try first; it does make a big difference! Before the mod, pushing the encoder to select something (without unintentionally rotating it) has always been a conscious action for me. Not to the extent of "hold tongue at right angle" -- but nevertheless it certainly did not feel effortless and automatic.Upgrading to the encoder with detents has totally changed this. I now just rotate the desired number of steps and push; it's quite intuitive and not a conscious exercise anymore. Hence I don't feel a need for a separate button. Wiring one up would be straightforward, of course, but I would recommend trying without it before you drill an additional hole into the front ;-)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 06:16:46 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 21, 2016, 09:24:59 pmDoes the original white knob fit on that encoder?

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 06:29:16 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 22, 2016, 06:16:46 amAbsolutely.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 07:33:26 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 22, 2016, 06:16:46 amAs someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the new encoder axis is about half a millimeter longer than on the stock encoders, so the knob will sit slightly higher. The (plastic) axis can be filed/trimmed down if this annoys you; I did not bother, because the difference is hardly noticeable.On my unit, the knob also does not sit quite as tight on the new axis as it did before. I had originally thought about jamming in a bit of plastic film to fixate it more strongly -- but did not do anything so far, and the knob has never come loose.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2016, 07:41:46 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 23, 2015, 01:55:04 amI might also try the "bigger knob" trick. I've got some really big knobs somewhere.

author: ian.rees
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2016, 10:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on May 09, 2016, 07:54:19 pmI modded mine last night - didn't get any photos, but as others have pointed out it's quite straightforward and teardown videos are easy to find. Required tools are a regular Torx T10 driver, something to remove a 14mm hex nut (around the rear trigger out BNC), and soldering kit. Takes quite a bit of heat to do the soldering, I just cut the old encoder off to make the job a bit easier. Haven't used the scope much since, but like the feel of the new encoder so far. -Ian-

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2016, 12:54:46 am
content: I bought the switch from NewarkStock Number 74M1068Part Number EC12E2424407I wanted parts from a reputable source so these cost $2.27 each.The mod is worth every bit of the time it took to do. It makes menu selection a lot cleaner.

author: Andrew8086
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2016, 08:22:52 am
content: Has someone tried this modification on a DS4000?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2016, 06:52:59 pm
content: Coincidentally I just replaced the encoder on my DS4014. Check the post inthe other thread.

author: Andrew8086
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2016, 07:38:28 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 29, 2016, 06:52:59 pmInfo much appreciated, thank you.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 02:45:33 am
content: I just ordered one of those encoders for my 4014, thanks rsjsouza! The menu selector has been my #1 beef with it, can't wait to replace it.While we're talking about control mods, does anyone know of a source for gray knobs with rubber overmolding like the ones Keysight ships on their newer scopes?https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WhAWwomKRaE/maxresdefault.jpghttp://www.newae.com/sidechannel/cwdocs/_images/scopeknob.jpghttp://www.alauda.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/DSC_0029.jpgI'm sure those particular knobs were custom ordered, but it's a little disappointing that I can't seem to find anything roughly comparable. Even "gray, no markings" seems to narrow the options down to ~0, nevermind the overmolding. Hopefully the problem is with my filter-fu and not the actual market supply, am I looking in the wrong place?http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/hardware-fasteners-accessories/knobs/http://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Knobs-Dials/_/N-5g22/

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 11:33:49 am
content: jjoonathan, I suspect that either Keysight or eBay will be your best bet. Being custom made, I couldn't find them even in a large supplier of knobs such asthis one.This other onehas some near misses.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2016, 11:37:52 pm
content: Sure enough, there's an ebay shop that sells exactly what I'm looking for, just not at a price I'm willing to pay. Ah well.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Main-knob-for-Agilent-HP-Oscilloscope-86100A-86103B-86103A-86105A-86105B-86105C-/152093625388?hash=item23697c8c2c:g:RGAAAOxy4dNSsUhNThanks for those other two links. As you say, plenty of near misses.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2016, 08:23:29 am
content: Quote from: jjoonathan on May 31, 2016, 11:37:52 pmYou do gettenof them and I'm sure there's other ebayers who are looking to buy less than ten, so... see if you can figure out a way to get yours for free.

author: Jasper
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2016, 10:45:43 pm
content: Actually, you get twenty. Ten of each size. But at 80 bucks including shipping for the lot, that's still nearly five bucks *per knob*.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 08:48:56 am
content: Quote from: Jasper on June 02, 2016, 10:45:43 pmOh...Send him a message and ask of they can be sent by ordinary post instead of Fedex. You never know.Quote from: Jasper on June 02, 2016, 10:45:43 pmHe offers combined shipping so you can get them cheaper (per knob) by buying multiple sets.

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 11:18:30 am
content: I asked him about alternative or combined shipping two days ago and he never got back. Ebay will ship 1 for $25, 2 for $45, 3 for $65... so the shipping discount makes the unit cost $75 instead of $80. Given the prices that other Hong Kong dealers manage to ship for, I bet he's pocketing most of that. Which is fine, but it really thins out the margins. Selling $1 encoders for $8 is an excellent business plan, selling $5 knobs for $8 carries a bit more risk if you can't match inventory to demand.Time to see if Agilent directly sells "replacements."

author: StormJunkie
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 05:38:07 am
content: Just picked up a 1054z and would really like to do the encoder upgrade. Does anyone know if all of the rotary encoders on the 1054Z are the same? And any reason not to replace all 5 of them? Thanks!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 05:50:47 am
content: Quote from: StormJunkie on March 02, 2017, 05:38:07 amThe encoders behind the two large knobs (for horizontal and vertical scale) have detents already. The eoncoders for trigger level, horizontal and vertical position are only used for continuous adjustments, not for discrete selections -- so it does not make sense to use stepped encoders for these. Only the menu selection encoder benefits from replacing it with a stepped/detented version, IMO.

author: StormJunkie
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 06:27:53 am
content: Are the detents stronger/more solid on the ALPs enocders? I'd prefer a more solid feel if they offer it...and if I'm going in any way, why not do them anyway. I agree that replacing the trigger and position pots doesn't make much sense. So I should have only asked if the menu select, horizontal, and vertical are the same.Thanks for the help!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 06:45:51 am
content: Quote from: StormJunkie on March 02, 2017, 06:27:53 amThey might indeed be a bit more pronounced on the ALPS encoder. But I can't say for sure, since I have never tried to swap large vs. small knobs: The larger knobs on the horizontal and vertical scale give you a bit more torque, and that will certainly contribute to making the detents feel softer.I would say that the build quality of the stock encoders actually looks better than the recommended ALPS encoder: Metal body vs. plastic, and the axis feels a bit more precise (wobbles less if you wiggle it sideways). So I would leave the scale encoders unchanged. Coming from an old analog scope, I also thought that the scale knobs felt a bit too soft initially, but I got used to it very quickly. The detents are certainly strong enough to give you a clear haptic feedback on the steps.

author: absps
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 09:39:21 am
content: I am also planning to replace the encoder on my DS1054Z. Its behaviour is now completely erratic!I first thought to use the "ALPS EC12E2424407" used by Howardlong (below, August 23, 2015) but, on mouser, the part is obsolete and, on Farnell, it gets two reviews, both bad (http://uk.farnell.com/alps/ec12e2424407/encoder-vertical-24-det-24ppr/dp/1520813).I then tried to find the exact reference of the EC11 which worked for you. There are many choices and I am a bit lost... The best match I found with your description is the "ALPS EC11E15244G1", datasheet:http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/15/EC11-951851.pdfhttp://www.mouser.tw/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=EC11E15244G1The shaft is in metal and it seems more robust.But I am a bit reluctant to buy it (especially because of the shipping cost) without being sure that it will work. Anyone has opinion and help me make my choice?Thanks!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 09:51:54 am
content: Has anybody done a step by step guide to doing this?How many screws do we need to remove, how hard is it to desolder, etc.What's the chances of messing it up?

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 09:59:10 am
content: The EC12E2424407 which people have successully used is 24 detents, 24 pulses.The EC11E15244G1 you suggest is 30 detent, 15 pulses. While 30 vs 24 is not an issue (menus will scroll through slightly faster), the detent:pulse ratio is - unless it is also 1:1, you'll need to turn the knob two clicks per change.

author: tablatronix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 01:53:08 pm
content: I wonder could you 3d print (might actually need laser cut or cnc for the size) a pressfit 2 piece notched slip ring to augment the physical knob, to get around the pesky void warranty issue.I guess you could kludge an existing encoder detent ring onto the knob itself even...edit:indexing detent knobs, hmmhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-Indexing-Detent-Knob-Electronic-Hardware-Corp-EHC-DTM70C2b-18-NEW-/142386536127?hash=item2126e61ebf:m:mCPV97_CzWa1DMxSOBfNDLwhttps://www.google.ch/patents/US20050173232http://www.ehcknobs.com/pdfs/catalog/InstrConsp43.pdf

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 02:06:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 18, 2017, 09:51:54 amIt's not particularly hard, but ISTR I found you need a pretty meaty iron to get the existing encoder off. Chances of messing up aren't high as long as your soldering skills are reasonable and you don't lose too many screws.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 02:42:11 pm
content: Desoldering is where PCBs are destroyed. I don't recall having any problem removing the encoder but I have a vacuum desoldering tool. Where I usually get into trouble is using SolderWick. Too much heat, traces lifting, etc.I just looked up the datasheet and it seems that the pins are all exposed around the perimeter of the encoder. Cut all the pins and the two mounting tabs, remove the body and then unsolder each pin one at a time. Then clean up the through-holes and mount the new encoder.I bought extras but I'll be darned if I can find them and, short of opening up the scope, I can't recall exactly how difficult the encoder was to remove. What little I remember is that is was simple.Work carefully and everything should work out fine.http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/15/EC11-951851.pdf

author: absps
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 18, 2017, 03:05:28 pm
content: Thank you Cowana!I guess that I will stick with the EC12E2424407. I do not see any EC11 part with a 1:1 detent:pulse ratio.The desoldering part is also making me nervous. I will follow the suggestion of rstofer to cut the pins and remove them one by one.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2020, 12:47:24 am
content: Hi there,today I installed my ordered rotary encoder (Alps STEC12E08 24 impulses with 24 detents, which is already used by many) in the DS1054z (Mode to DS1104z).First had to find out that the Rigol button / encoder board was changed.All rotary encoders are now surface mounted. This means that there are no more holes.Ok, modified the new Alps so that it was on the back plan, unsoldered the original and installed the Alps exactly positioned.So far everything is ok, but the detents do not match the impulses.Especially in longer menu lists, you notice that one menu point is often skipped per rest.Could it be that in the last update the behavior on the encoder was changed so that this Alps is no longer read correctly?

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2020, 05:18:11 pm
content: I am trying to find out whether the encoder ordered does not exactly match the one mentioned here.The ALPS EC12E2424407 often mentioned here differs from my ordered, if at all, only a little bit from the mechanical propertiesand dimensions but it should be the same from the electrical side (I hope ...)It is an Alps STEC12E08 rotary encoder, 24 pulses / 24 detents, vertical.Find only a very bad datasheet of this STEC12E08 ...At the moment it is not quite sure whether I might have caught a defective encoder when ordering.As it is now, I cannot leave it. 50% of menu items can only be selected between two stop points ...

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2020, 05:46:46 pm
content: The two should really be the same encoder type. In the STEC08 datasheet, you will find the other model number right on the title page, under „model“.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2020, 07:31:13 pm
content: And I already had doubts because the STEC12E08 is funny to buy only from a single dealer across the countryand this type does not even appear in the manufacturer list on the Alps website ...Not even Mouser or Farnell think of this type.But why do I have the problem that two menu items are jumped per click?Unfortunately I had not tried the encoder with the older firmware.Since the update to 04.04.04.03 I have not come back to the previous 00.04.04.04.02 to test the encoder.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2020, 07:45:33 pm
content: Hmm, my (old) DS1054Z is still at 04.04.04.02. Unless Rigol changed the way their firmware update works, you can't go back to an older firmware version unfortunately. Can anybody confirm that the .03 version (didn't realize it exists) also works with the detented encoder?Of course Rigol could in principle also have transitioned to a different encoder for the latest PCB redesign, and/or flipped the connections to the two quadrature signals in their PCB layout. As you can see in the STEC08 datasheet, one of the quadrature phases is always stable at the detent position, while the other is "right on the edge" there. Maybe it's worth a try to swap the two connections to your replacement encoder (via short bodge wires between the part and the PCB), and see whether the encoder is better-behaved then?

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2020, 09:56:50 pm
content: Unfortunately I only bought one STEC12E08.Otherwise, I could have quickly compared this type with the original from rigol.(Don't want to stress the PCB with lots of soldering now).I found this in the documentaries of these Alps encoders (see picture in the appendix).According to this graphic, the correct parking position would not be given for the EC12 "E", but for the type EC12 "D"?!?

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2020, 10:46:47 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 18, 2020, 07:45:33 pmSure you can! That is very old news ->Here

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2020, 01:46:08 pm
content: It seems to be a problem that the Alps encoder E12 "E" series stops with its rest position on the flank.If you carefully outsmart the detent by hand, i.e. stop at the tip of a detent, then it would work.I'm also not satisfied with the quality of this Alps type.The detent is too hard, in particular for a small button diameter.The feeling when turning is inferior, as is the feeling when pressing the button.No comparison to the encoders that Rigol has now installed (at least to mine in the newer generation of the keyboard / encoder board).They run smoothly with little play and a good pressure point.Looking for a higher quality encoder. Preferably one of the two who rigol uses on timebase and volt / div with detent.So far I have not found the original ones.Rigol will certainly not build it itself, but buy it somewhere in China...

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2020, 02:11:04 pm
content: Quote from: klausES on January 19, 2020, 01:46:08 pmRegarding the functionality problem you experience, it remains a fact that the same type of encoder has been used successfully by many others. (Including myself; mine is a "STEC08" from Reichelt.) You could go back to the .02 firmware to verify whether a change in .03 has caused the problem; see tv84's hints on "downgrading" the firmware. Or you could try swapping the quadrant signals to see whether there was a change in the board layout which now makes the wrong signal critical in the detent position.Regarding the different feel, I doubt that you will be able to identify the exact encoder type used by Rigol. (And if you did, you would have to be quite lucky to find a source for single quantities.) Alps and Bourns are the two major Western brands for encoders, I believe, and are widely available from the usual distributors. You can get types with a metal shaft instead of plastic, which may (or may not) be better quality.But don't make this an endless search for perfection; it's aboutusingthe scope after all!

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 12:19:25 am
content: Tried another Bourns encoder today (PEC12R-4220F-S0024).Its latching is not on an edge (datasheet and measured in real terms).The same behavior can be seen as with the Alps.There are 2 steps in the menus etc. between two screenings.As with the Alps, speed also plays no role in this behavior.The Bourns can be handled better because it does not have the pointy grid as the Alps, but none of this was planned.What else did they change with the newer board besides smd?Actually impossible illogical because these two encoders (apart from standing on the flank at the Alps, the Bourns doesn't do this),if you think away the purely mechanical screening, do nothing else than the original encoder.At the moment I can't think of anything else.Why is this happening?... except converting the original encoder to a grid.I've already started ...Another warning:When unsoldering the Alps (i.e. the 2nd unsoldering process on this board at the point), four of the five soldering pads said goodbye.And i am experienced for smd soldering ...The board looks really nice, but it seems very sensitive here.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 01:41:48 am
content: Could the Actel ProAsic that's sitting on the front panel board and that's probably doing the low-level interfacing of the individuals switches / encoders to the SoC, be configured differently on the new models? This means, the configuration of this "small FPGA" isn't changed during a firmware update. That would be quite a bummer since now, the "easy" encoder replacement isn't an option anymore (even more so due to the new SMD installation of the encoders).But it should be possible to find a suitable, detented encoder with a single phase change between two detents, after all.This encoderin the 9pulse / 18detent version may do the trick -- difficulty will be obtaining it in small quantities.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 10:57:26 am
content: It does not mean that this FPGA could not be changed by firmware,but what good does it do to a user if Rigol does not do this because they do not need to do it.If this is the case (it seems to be so), would the original encoder with its 20 regular changes(A and B counted together measured) cause 40 changes there, or am I wrong?But then how does it recognize the direction of rotation?Then it would still be possible to try an encoder with 30 detents with 15 pulses.There are a few. Also from Alps.Such a crap ... all over again ...

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 11:05:01 am
content: Had already started building the original encoder 20 mechanical detents that takes upso little space that it still fits in the front (it's almost done), but that would be useless.Now I am thinking of building a mechanism that prevents the shaft from rotating when the encoder is pressed.That is the real reason for the whole misery ...All a bullshit.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 11:29:41 pm
content: The "shaft brake when pressing the encoder" works perfectly with the original encoder.Just installed and now tested for an hour.One would have to make an effort (intentionally with force) to jump to an adjacent menu item when pressing.And the feeling (turn and button) is simply better with the originals than with the Alps (sorry, I like the Alps otherwise) and Bourns.If I had known all of this beforehand ... it can be that easy. after that you're always smarter ...You didn't have to remove / unsolder the encoder,With the last brake variant now running, you would not even have to open the housing.It stays that way now.

author: Adrian_Arg.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2020, 11:42:38 pm
content: so these encoders don't work either "Alpes ec12e2424407"

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 12:05:13 am
content: Since this is technically the same as the Alps I tried, probably not.Remember, this only affects the new DS1000Z with the new control PCB (with the SMD encoder) such as with mine.The older versions seem to be running (that would be the Alps type that many used).

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 06:06:31 am
content: Quote from: klausES on January 29, 2020, 11:29:41 pmWhile I am happy with the detented encoder in my older scope, this makes me curious. I understand you have made a mechanical mod?Could you share a photo or a design drawing please?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 07:55:20 am
content: Quote from: klausES on January 29, 2020, 11:05:01 amAdd a push button at the side of the encoder, avoid the problem entirely.Can the PCB be hacked to exchange the "clear" button with the encoder's push button? That would be a huge improvement in the UI and still leave the 'scope pretty on the outside.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 11:30:56 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 30, 2020, 06:06:31 amYes, it is mechanical.The principle is very simple, it depends on the properties of the material and its exact mass.It is complicated to explain with words alone. I'll make a drawing the days.Quote from: Fungus on January 30, 2020, 07:55:20 amAs a mechanical micro button (short stroke) or like the original combs in the layout with conductive rubber(the free surfaces are coated with solid copper underneath the soldering resist, you could mill an area on it).That would be tedious but possible and you would have to work very precisely for the timing to the front panel.On the other hand, one would have to consider whether changing the grip is really worth striving for with every operation ?!?As simple as it is (almost idiotically simple) and to praise yourself (stinks as they say here),I played with it for quite a while yesterday because it is really great to use.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 02:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: klausES on January 18, 2020, 05:18:11 pmQuote from: klausES on January 18, 2020, 07:31:13 pmReichelt is using an extremely old part number.It looks like the part was originally STEC12E08. Sometime in the 2000s, Alps renumbered its encoders, and it became the EC12E2424407. Later, it was discontinued, which is why it's not found on any modern Alps datasheets for the EC12 series.I've attached below an older EC12 series datasheet that includes the EC12E2424407, as well as a 20 year old Alps catalog that lists the STEC12E08.Quote from: klausES on January 18, 2020, 05:18:11 pmNo, it's not broken, it's just the wrong part for your scope.Quote from: klausES on January 18, 2020, 07:31:13 pmFor whatever reason, it looks like Alps used to make lots of 1:1 detent-to-pulse ratio encoders, but little by little moved entirely to 2:1.It appears that Rigol changed from 1:1 THT encoders in older boards to modern, probably 2:1 SMD encoders in newer boards. If you put a 1:1 encoder in a circuit expecting a 2:1, you get twice as many pulses per detent, causing the software to move twice as fast as you wanted.For the original THT board: I'm a bit puzzled by the fact everyone is using EC12 series encoders in a board that clearly uses EC11 series originally. For a given shaft length, the EC12 is 0.5mm taller than the EC11, which explains why the knobs sit proud when using an EC12.---- Edit ---From what I can tell, for everyone with a board using the 1:1 THT encoders, the optimal Alps part number isSTEC11B13(EC11, 20mm shaft, with button, 20 detents, 20 pulses; AKAEC11B20244), and the equivalent Bourns (which is an active part) isPEC11L-4120F-S0020(PEC11L,20mm shaft,with switch,20 detents,20 pulses).For those with a 2:1 SMD encoder board, it'd be one of the following Alps models:EC11J0924411EC11J1524413<-- probably this oneEC11J0925403EC11J1525402Those differ in number of detents/pulses (# of pulses in red) and button travel (in green, 4=0.5mm, 5=1.5mm travel). My guess is that 0.5mm travel is probably the right one, but I don't know whether 9 or 15 pulses is better. AFAIK, either will work, just at different speeds obviously. Given that Bourns only makes this in a 30-detent/15-pulse version, my hunch is that the second one (in bold) is likely what Rigol is using, insofar as the Chinese clones will also probably be of the most widely available type. The equivalent Bourns part isPEC11S-9220F-S0015.As detailed in a reply below, it turns out that they measure the shaft length differently on the plastic-shaft encoders vs. metal-shaft ones.The plastic ones include the body, the metal ones do not, adding 5mm length. Bourns carries both the THT and SMD metal ones in the needed 15mm height, but the SMD one doesn't seem to be in stock anywhere. Alps doesn't even have part numbers for them.So here's the updated info.From what I can tell, for everyone with a board using the 1:1 THT encoders, the optimal encoder is the BournsPEC11L-4115F-S0020(PEC11L,15mm shaft,with switch,20 detents,20 pulses).For those with a 2:1 SMD encoder board, it'd be Bourns partPEC11S-9215F-S0015, which nobody seems to have in stock.--- /Edit ---I've attached the current Alps and Bourns datasheets, too.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 02:15:05 pm
content: Last datasheet, since it pushes the total attachment size over the limit.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 03:17:17 pm
content: Quote from: klausES on January 29, 2020, 12:19:25 amThat, too, is a 1:1 ratio encoder. I think it's highly likely you need a 2:1 encoder. Besides, isn't that a through-hole encoder? Why would you buy that instead of an SMD one? Try one I list in the post above.Quote from: klausES on January 29, 2020, 12:19:25 amWhat do you mean by a grid? And what do you mean by a pointy grid??Quote from: klausES on January 29, 2020, 12:19:25 amWhat?Quote from: klausES on January 29, 2020, 12:19:25 amAgain, grid??Quote from: klausES on January 29, 2020, 12:19:25 amThat sucks.I do find SMD pads to be much, much easier to lift than THT ones, generally speaking.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 05:30:27 pm
content: I still wanted to try a 30 detend 15 impulse encoder,luckily I don't need that anymore.Quote from: tooki on January 30, 2020, 03:17:17 pmI meant detent and whether the detent runs fine and softor mechanically hard and difficult to tackle at the tips.Thanks for your detailed answers.

author: Adrian_Arg.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 10:36:03 pm
content: Quote from: klausES on January 30, 2020, 12:05:13 amWhat version of PCB does your rigol ds1000z have?

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2020, 10:53:45 pm
content: You mean specifically the encoder board ?Mine probably has the latest with the encoders as SMD."Keyboard A V01.02"Mainboard is "V01.04"

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 09:32:07 am
content: One thing that baffles me in this context: As Rigol did change the PCB design and the BOM of the front panel board anyway -- why didn't they introduce a detented encoder for the menu selection knob?! They must havesomeonelistening to customer feedback, including the discussions and advice on this forum?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 09:49:15 am
content: If only... how many years did it take for them to fix the “pluses” typo?It was clearly a conscious (if stupid) decision to use a non-detented encoder to begin with, not a bug, so I don’t see why they’d change it. Rigol definitely does not have a reputation of being responsive to customers.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 10:40:15 am
content: The right choice would be to take one like the two new ones at the bottom left.Certainly the same people as before thought it was right to take one without detent at this point,(or you didn't want to annoy any of the thousands of older buyers now) ?!?

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 11:23:42 am
content: There are two options (outside, without opening the housing).The more effective of the two is the silicone ring on the inside of the shaft.See image.Version inside:It must have an exact mass, then it is put under "pressure" early on, at the very beginning of the pushing, and its deformation(since it cannot leave the V-shaped space) increases the friction between the shaft and the thickening of the shaft aboveand the fixed neck of the encoder to increase the friction from turning while pressing.Version outside:(There it is easier to try different diameter and tensions to test it).The ring may only have a slight tension without pressing (it should dampen the rotation "then" if only slightly)and when pressed it is forced to increase its overall diameter.This more tension also creates more friction and the shaft can be turned brake while pressing.Everything depends on the right dimensions and materials of these sealing rings.If these are selected correctly, braking works perfectly without the normal turning and pressing of the button being impaired.Inside it has to be soft silicone (easily deformable), on the outside there is also a rubber or better a Viton ring.I hope the translator doesn't build too much nonsense here...PS.Silicone Ring inside = yellowRubber or Viton ring outside = red

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 05:40:02 pm
content: This would have been my conversion of the original encoder (20 pulses) to 20 detent (pictures still in the early stages).Unfortunately, it is useless if the software of the new smd encoder board now evaluates the encoder "twice" per step.So work for free ...Before I throw in the scrap unfinished, I wanted to show you.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 06:04:29 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 30, 2020, 02:06:39 pmSo I ordered a PEC11L-4120F-S0020 for my scope, and when it arrived, I was surprised to discover it's 5mm longer than the original. Turns out that on the plastic-shaft encoders, theyincludethe encoder body in the shaft length, while on the metal-shaft ones, they don't!So when I went by the 20mm shaft spec on the 12mm plastic encoder people recommended earlier, it actually required a 15mm shaft in metal.I now have a PEC11L-4115F-S0020 on the way. But for the SMD models, I don't know what to suggest. Nobody seems to stock the 15mm shaft SMD version of the Bourns (PEC11S-9215F-S0015), and Alps doesn't even have a part number for a 15mm SMD version!I'll update the post accordingly.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2020, 06:40:14 pm
content: Also, for what it's worth, the original encoders in my THT board appear to be from a called LJV.I suspect that the original encoders are their "RE11 Low Profile Rotary Encoder". (I must say that I enjoy how the non-detented ones are pine green, while the detented ones are lime green.)

author: smartislav
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 07:08:17 pm
content: TL;DRFor keyboard v01.02 (with 1:2 SMD encoders), these THT panel-mount encodershttps://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/652-PEC11L4215FS0015can easily be converted to SMD. I just did it and it works just fine.The only thing is, it might be a little bit too fast. The controller skips steps sometimes.Another option (with fewer steps) ishttps://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bourns/PEC11R-4215F-S0012but it's only rated for 30000 cycles (against 100000 for the first one). Also, it's not low-profile. Not sure if it fits or not. It's temperature range is slightly different, too. So I'm not sure if it's just estimated within a different confidence interval or something.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2020, 09:53:26 pm
content: The encoder you are using now has 30 detents 15 pulses.This corresponds to the last theses for locking encoders that could work with this board and the software.He also has an overlap of 50% (unfortunately, my first attempt with an Alps didn't have that).What I'm interested in.Is your encoder (30 detent, 15 impulses) when slowly turning now exactly one menu item or two from one detent to the next?My question is, because with the original encoder with 20 pulses everyone is used for jumps,Your current one at 15, whether the software interprets 30 or the real 15 from it.If a brisk turn leads more often to errors such as skipping a menu item (I noticed that often in my attempts)a 24 (or 20) detent with 12 (or 10) pulses would probably be more suitable for this board.

author: smartislav
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 10:06:08 am
content: Quote from: klausES on April 09, 2020, 09:53:26 pmYep, exactly one.Quote from: klausES on April 09, 2020, 09:53:26 pmIt does jump. I'm not 100% satisfied with the replacement.The problem is, after you turn it quickly, the firmware on the board might get confused. Some of the subsequent turns might be missed.But if you only ever turn it slowly, it works just fine.I should've put a scope on the signal traces to debug the issue, but alas. It might be caused by my rework of the PCB pads I tore off. Another possible cause is different signal filtering requirements.

author: klausES
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 10:32:58 am
content: The knob, which is very small in diameter, favors a very fast pulse sequence when it is turned quickly between the fingers.A larger knob would defuse that, but it is not a nice solution.Therefore 24 detent with 12 impulses could probably cause fewer problems.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 05:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 28, 2020, 06:04:29 pmOh yeah, I forgot to update here!The PEC11L-4115F-S0020 is a perfect fit in my THT version of the scope. It works perfectly, too. The only thing is, the detent force is way, way higher than in the detented encoders the scope came with for e.g. horizontal scale/timebase . If I had a vacuum desoldering gun, I’d consider swapping them, since the larger knob of the timebase makes the larger force less noticeable. For example, the strong detents are a bit annoying when moving cursors.With that said, it’s still way better to use than with the no-detent encoder. I’d rather be slightly annoyed when moving cursors than be constantly infuriated when trying to use menus.

author: KK1L
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 09:44:58 pm
content: QuoteWhich one did you use? I am sorry it is not clear to me....the 24/12 or the 30/15? I get the impression it is the 30/15. Did you try the 24/12 and were the results better?I think I have the SMD version, but have not removed the board yet. I am ordering both the TH and SM versions to cover my basesI would like to get an SM one which works or I have no problem converting a TH to SM.What I have in my "cart" at Newark...EC12E2424407 in case board is through hole 30-200 gf-cm torqueEC11J1524413 in case SMD (30:15) 70-170 gf-cm torquePEC11R-4215F-S0012 in case SMD (24:12) 30-90 gf-cm torque73 es God Bless de KK1L, Ron <><

author: KK1L
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2021, 12:18:31 am
content: Quote from: KK1L on January 07, 2021, 09:44:58 pmFolks,I have completed an encoder upgrade on a 2:1 SMD board. I am super happy with the results.I used a PEC11R-4215F-S0012 24:12 converted to SMD by gull winging and clipping the leads. To install I cut the leads on the original to remove it. Then it was easy to remove the leftover and not damage the solder pads/lands on the board. This worked out well and I never felt close to lifing the pads. A normal touch with the iron was all that was needed to solder the replacement on the board.The replacement encoder's shaft sits about 2mm more proud than the original. Ulitmately this is noticable, but not objectionable.The 24:12 works great. I did not notice any skipping and there is one selection per click. To test it I used a digit selection menu. A fast spin (not roulette wheel fast, but what you might normally do fast) got me from "2" to "7" with what my mind registered as five clicks. I tried that a few times and it all seemed to jive. Selection of an item was flawless. The force to turn the knob is really just about right. It is much easier than the 30:15 in my list above.Prior to biting the bullet and switching out the encoder I tried adding some friction between the knob and the scope body as suggested earlier in this thread. That did help, but I still needed to be careful and had a good number of missed selections.While I was in there I added a header to the JTAG port. I have been having a dickens of a time using my SiSpeed debugger (does not dump memory reliablly), so I have an Olimex coming. This will make it that much easier.73 es God Bless de KK1L, Ron <><

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 05:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: KK1L on February 18, 2021, 12:18:31 amThats because the original encoders are low-profile ones (4.5mm body height), while the PEC11R is a regular height one (6.5mm body height). The PEC11L series is low profile (as is the SMD version, the PEC11S), so you’re seeing exactly the 2mm height difference between them.I wish Bourns measured all their encoders the way they do the plastic body encoders like the PEC12R: shaft length measured from the board. On the metal ones, they measure shaft length from the top of the body, which as you see is not consistent...

author: VasinD
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2023, 10:53:34 am
content: Just in case someone is still searching for a replacement for original encoders in DS1054Z, I have replaced my original no detents encoders with PEC11R-4015F-S0024, made by Bourns, and they work perfectly fine! I have PCB ver v01.01. PEC11R is a bit higher than original encoders. If you wish to replace encoders with detents, you should use PEC11R-4215F-S0024. Attention! These part names are only for PCB ver v01.01 as someone have already noticed in this thread!!The reason why I did that, was not to mod my scope, but to repair it. The horizontal scale offset encoder had been dying for several months and finally, in a bad day, when I turned on my scope, I saw no reaction on rotation of horizontal scale offset encoder at all. So I decided to replace all of them at once.Hope this will save a day for someone.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 04:03:08 pm
content: No, you should use the PEC11Las I explain above, so that the height is correct.