Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 08:51:08 am
content: Teardown soon!http://youtu.be/C3YksbvYnKY

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 10:04:33 am
content: Great video as usual Mike, looking forward to see the teardown.Thanks for the tips on breaking up those ultrasonic welded plastics.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 04:28:35 pm
content: Great review. Thanks. I may get one from Amazon. I had concern about the wide angle, minimal distance, and fixed focus. Will be interesting to see what results you will get with the macro lenses.BTW, mm/dd/yyyy date format is very popular around here. It goes well with inches, ounces and fahrenheit.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 07:16:01 pm
content: Mike,Great that your TIC arrived so quickly. I shall enjoy watching another of your excellent video'sFraser

author: Mysion
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 09:17:10 pm
content: Awesome!What a cool little unit.In another thread you said it was likely that most of the cameras used the same sensor but that the frame rate and resolution was reduced in software. Is there any way to verify this now that you have a unit in your hands?Can't wait for the tear down!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 10:09:34 pm
content: Another excellent video Mike. Thank you.Thanks also for your suggestion on opening ultrasonic welded plastic cases....I have eight knackered FLIR batteries to open up !With regard to the poor user interface I am surprised. There is no excuse for sluggish menus in 2013 and the poor control pad functionality should have been discovered during UAT.My FLIR camera has a small joystick whose function changes depending upon the menu function selected. For example, at start-up the joystick controls focus and zoom. If the manual image set-up menu is selected, the joystick controls centre temperature and span. As you state, it is common sense that the joy-pad should have commonly used functions assigned to it during normal use. Hopefully FLIR will consider some firmware updates to correct this oversight.With regard to the 'FLIR Tools' software. It is a universal program for most of the cameras in FLIR's portfolio. It even works with my 1990's TIC'sThe functions that you could not activate in the view mode are for Thermographic cameras that contain a lot of embedded information in the recorded image files. My cameras produce proprietary FLIR .img and standard BMP files but not jpg. The .img files are the only ones that contain the thermographic data that FLIR Tools uses.You can see plots of temperature across a scene and other stuff that Industry needs. I actually prefer Explorer99 that was released in 1999(updated 2007). It does the job without fuss.The real advantage of these software programs is that they can re-process the raw thermal image data, including changing centre temperature, span and the colour palettes may be changed to ones not available on the camera. Various measurements on the image may be carried out post inspection.I am impressed with the improvement in image recognition that the MSX offers. I can see this becoming standard fitment on TIC's in the future. It is very clever that FLIR offers the image registration adjustment. A pretty decent 'budget' TIC.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 10:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mysion on October 09, 2013, 09:17:10 pmPoking around the sensor pins with a scope should give clues as to what the sensor is capable of...

author: iceisfun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 01:22:06 am
content: Awesome, I was considering a Flir I series camera too but that looks great for the price!

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 01:59:15 am
content: If there was a hack available to get this up to 20fps i would buy it right now.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 02:58:02 am
content: Mike, do you have any experience with Flir I3? How would you compare them? Does the I3 has better macro resolution out of the box? They are in the same price range.

author: neggles
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 03:13:50 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 10, 2013, 02:58:02 amThe i3 has been discontinued, the E4 is its replacement. The optics (and probably the sensor) are largely the same, but the E4 has the secondary visual camera for outline overlay.

author: chibiace
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 03:26:04 am
content: just fell asleep half way through this. strangely hypnotic.nice monitor layout you have there.will have to watch the rest later. but very nice piece of kit could come in handy

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 03:35:27 am
content: Quote from: PsiI talked to 3 FLIR / Fluke / "forgor brand" engineers at Electronex, 2 of whom were from Germany R+D.The models they showed me were 50fps !! I was told, IF you buy these out of Germany (maybe Europe? as well),there are NO FPS restrictions, unlike in/out of USA. I feel a hack coming up :-) ?I'm kicking myself for not buying the demo E5 for 1/2 price.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 03:36:59 am
content: Quote from: neggles on October 10, 2013, 03:13:50 amAre you sure about the optics? The viewing angle of the I3 is 12.5 degrees vs 45 degrees of the E4 which is about x4 zoom. *If* they have the same minimum focus distance than the I3 can have > x2 linear resolution (e.g. when inspecting PCB's).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 08:57:51 am
content: Quote from: digsys on October 10, 2013, 03:35:27 amDifferent countries have different restrictions, so there may be places you can buy with fewer restrictions, but a US company would probably not supply via any country that didn't have similar restrictions to US.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 09:24:18 am
content: I sent a link to the vid to Flir, and they replied saying they agreed with the UI issues and had previously had discussions with their engineers about it, and intend to improve the firmware.They do have a soft case option, and looking at the prices of the soft and hard cases on their accessory page, they could sell the unit $100 less with this, which I think many users would prefer.

author: neggles
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 09:48:12 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2013, 09:24:18 amWhen they're trying to make a low-cost product, and there's a way that's this obvious to reduce its price by 10%, you really have to wonder why they didn't do it.Quote from: zapta on October 10, 2013, 03:36:59 amHmm, you're right. I'm not so sure - I do recall seeing that the i3 is hopeless closer than 30cm, and Mike's video seems to show the E4 being usable down to 100mm or so, which might help.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 11:44:22 am
content: Good hardware, but rather disappointing firmware. Unless the sensor needs a long time to initialise (does it need to heat up/cool down to a specific temperature?) I don't see any reason why it should need more than a second to get from cold power-off to full operation, like a regular digital camera.The UI lag is also surprising, given how simple it is and how much this unit costs. I agree with you that this trend of "UI simplification" is getting ridiculous - things like only 3 discrete backlight brightnesses (which can turn into "eye-watering", "too bright", and "too dark"), distances for correction are in rough steps (how hard is it to just have the option of visually shifting the image with the buttons on the main screen to achieve alignment, or better yet, a built-in distance sensor), buttons that are otherwise useless, etc.The OS also appears to be full of unneeded crap which is slowing things down - one of the debug messages is "WlanTask" - does it even have wireless? Also a little amusing that apparently at the end it has to parse XML... another thing that IMHO should never be needed in a device like this.But on the other hand, this "full OS" thing might make it even more hackable. Framerate limits might be stored in XML configuration files, the UI could be customisable, or maybe they even use the same sensor across all their models and just downscale this one to 80x60 depending on config bits...I've noticed these sorts of "enterprisey" design flaws more often in products that are mostly bought not by those who use them... where someone in management will just do it on the "we need some thermal cameras" idea and not have to use them, but give them to other workers so these sorts of issues you pointed out in your review don't make it back to Flir....And the Chinese could be catching up...http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/914920042/DT_9875_Thermal_Imager_Infrared_Thermal.html

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 12:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 10, 2013, 11:44:22 amI wonder if this hints at the clock running slower than was designed in order to limit the FPS

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 12:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 10, 2013, 11:44:22 amNice, 50Hz, @ 160x120, pity it's still at the 3~4K range. Can't wait to see how far the price drops in the coming years.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 01:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 10, 2013, 11:44:22 amStartup from standby is reasonable, given the use of an OS.QuoteProbably due to having a common platform for a wide range of models - The Ex0 series has WifiQuoteI wonder if they actually make the sensors - this is the main cost, and tech barrier - until a low-cost manufacturer can make sensors, these things are never going to get much cheaper.Flir own so much of the market that they can charge £4K+ for 320x240, when I suspect the hardware is identical to the 80x60, with the possible exception of the lens.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 01:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2013, 01:06:48 pmThese guy do appear to make their own sensors:http://www.dali-tech.us/products/dlc160-58.htmlIn fact their starting model is a 160x120 at £1,100.00 ex VAT, that's not much more than the E4!http://www.warwickts.com/te-dali-low-cost-thermal-imager-160x120-pixel-p1314

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 01:39:19 pm
content: Quote from: neggles on October 10, 2013, 09:48:12 amI think it's just a mindset thing -TICs are traditionally expensive things that should have expensive chunky cases, not tools that get thrown in a bag with other stuff.However it is a little surprising that they spend so much on the lowest end - maybe theye couldn't be bothered redesigning packaging etc.I think most people would rather pay $100 less for the unit and then make their own choice of case.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 01:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: Hypernova on October 10, 2013, 01:34:00 pmInteresting - pretty basic, and expensive encapsulation method though - The Flir E4 one has amuchcheaper construction method - video soon!

author: JackOfVA
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 02:17:45 pm
content: It seems that all the Ex series have fixed focus with minimum distance 0.5m and a field of view 45 deg x 34 deg. For the E4 this corresponds to 10.3 milliradian per pixel.At the minimum distance for the image to still be in focus, therefore, (S=R x Theta) one pixel is 500 mm x 0.0103 = 5 mm. The E6 resolution per pixel is 5.2mm, so one pixel at the closest in-focus distance corresponds to a 2.5 mm square.Technical data sheet on the E4 athttps://www1.elfa.se/data1/wwwroot/assets/datasheets/E4_eng_tds.pdfE6 athttps://www1.elfa.se/data1/wwwroot/assets/datasheets/E6_eng_tds.pdf

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 03:39:41 pm
content: The Dali-Tech TIC looks like a Clone of the original 'torch shaped' FLIR E series of many years ago.http://www.americaninfrared.com/ProductDetail.asp?ID=45http://www.alpine-components.co.uk/files/manuals-downloads/FLIR-E4-Manual.pdf

author: LoyalServant
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 03:52:57 pm
content: Great Review Mike.As a programmer myself I agree with you on the UI.To me that just seems like a complete fail in my opinion.I guess we have to wait for the teardown to see if they could have put a better processor in it.I am guessing this is probably an ARM processor?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 04:44:06 pm
content: Quote from: LoyalServant on October 10, 2013, 03:52:57 pm400MHz ARM926I suspect most of the issue is Windows CE - what ARM giveth, Microsoft Taketh away...

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 04:47:30 pm
content: I found a teardown of an Indigo Thermal security camera that may be of interest as the presenter states that the Indigo technology is what resides within the modern FLIR TICs. I found the sensor/shutter and lens structure to be pretty interesting in its simplicity.Lucky chap got given the superb little 320x240 camera for free ........ I am green with envyFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 04:51:02 pm
content: When will manufacturers learn that Linux is the best way to go on such devicesI have never liked Windows CE, or any device that used it. My Tom Tom Go Classic Sat Nav is all Linux and has never crashed or failed me ...... no laggy menus eitherI am not even a Linux 'fan boy' just an equipment user.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 05:38:06 pm
content: As a reference point in time, I have taken some pictures of my FLIR PM570 320x240 TIC optical block. She was state of the art in 1997 and her ancestors went on to be firm favourites in Industry. Little changed in the construction, just the components used. Lots of metal and industrial grade components evident. The 570 is built like a battleship and weighs a hefty 2kg ! I believe the PM570 used what is commonly termed a '1st Generation' TIC Micro-bolometer. My PM695 (Circa 2007) uses a more advanced beast, in the form of a 3rd Generation Micro-bolometer. I am uncertain what Generation of Micro-bolometer FLIR are now up to.These units are the handheld versions of what the police and emergency services have/had mounted on gimbal mounts under the noses of their helicopters. Crim's watch out !In the pictures, from left to right of the optic block, you will see the following components:1. Heat sink and dome mount for the rear of Micro-bolometer module.2. Micro-bolometer module mounted on its support components PCB.3. Micro-bolometer lens and 'light' guide tube4. Optional high temperature filter (motor controlled from software) Fitted in all units but inactive.5. Calibration shutter operated by large solenoid via axle and bell cranks.6. Focus lens controlled by stepper motor via worm drive7. Objective Lens

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 05:55:50 pm
content: E4 insides are as big a contrast as you could imagine from that. Especially the sensor packaging.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 06:05:03 pm
content: The Micro-bolometer sensor in the 570 is huge. I suspect as technology has progressed, the size has been dramatically reduced, as in the video of the Indigo security camera. I believe sensitivity increased as well. The large lumps of Germanium in my cameras makes for very expensive manufacturing costs in terms of both the actual lenses, and the heavy duty mounts required to hold or move them.I am very much looking forward to seeing the thermal engine used in the E4. I expect significant miniaturisation and simplification of the optics/shutter assemblyIIRC FLIR told me that the 570 Micro-bolometer is actually heated and stabilised at a temperature of 30 Degrees C (?) using a Peltier element. I have never confirmed that though.The ergonomics of the E4 case and the lighter weight does appeal. My FLIR PM series are more like heavy camcorders in comparison. BUT they are still gorgeous bits of kit, built to last and provide superb thermal images. Maybe I will sell one and buy a more modern unit for mobile use.

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 09:43:39 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 09, 2013, 08:51:08 amExplanation of reflected temperature (video 00:18:50):http://www.thesnellgroup.com/community/ir-talk/b/think-thermally/archive/2012/11/06/background-temperature-correction-what-it-does-and-does-not-do.aspx"... Thermal reflections are the bane of thermography, there’s no question about that. When inspecting surfaces that have a low emissivity, and hence a high reflectivity, temperature measurements can be much less reliable due to sources of energy, both warm and cool, that can be reflected from the surface and into the thermal imager’s detector. As we state in The Snell Group’sLevel I – Thermographic Applications training, the thermal imager can’t tell the difference between reflected energy from a surface and energy emitted by a surface, so we endeavor to tell it which is which. This is the essential function of the background temperature correction factor in your camera...."

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 10:06:31 pm
content: If you take a look at yourself in a mirror with the thermal camera, you will see a perfect thermal rendition of yourself. This even happens if you look at a shiny surface like a poster. It can make using a thermal camera more challenging but you get to know the issues with regular use. This is why it is recommended to complete a training course in thermography if doing it professionally. There are plenty of traps for newbies to fall into.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 11:42:37 pm
content: ..so how does the camera know if it's looking at a real source or a reflected one?

author: sonnytiger
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 01:03:45 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 09, 2013, 10:04:33 amThat is an interesting way of doing it, I will have to try it next time. I usually just (if I am not worrying about putting it back together or it looking nice) cut into the corner a bit and then pry with a screwdriver. Works really well if you aren't worried about it looking nice after haha.

author: Sar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 01:57:13 am
content: I rented a rather high end FLIR unit and took a lot of pictures with it. The thing was endlessly valuable in finding where the heat leaks out of my house. I appreciate you sharing this review because it's an item I actually considered purchasing. I think the one you reviewed is almost worth buying because it should be handy for quite a while with all of my hobbies. Thanks for sharing the video, I hope they consider your design improvement suggestions

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 04:03:23 am
content: Quote from: StevenWhitney on October 11, 2013, 03:01:50 amFor this kind of photo, use JPG instead of PNG. To maintain "good enough" quality, set the JPG compression above 70%.PNG is good for illustration picture only.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 08:30:36 am
content: Thanks for the pictures of the i7Very interesting. I see little, if any original Agema/FLIR design principles in this unit. The FLIR and AGEMA industrial designs have been multi board with less integration and larger Micro-bolometer detectors. This may be just technology improvements or the influence of Indigo on this FLIR market sector as stated in the Indigo tear down video.For those unaware, FLIR bought Agema, Inframetrics and then Indigo. Effectively absorbing each companies expertise in building such cameras in order to offer the best products in the industry. They didn't stop with TIC manufacturers, they also bought software authoring houses. FLIR has effectively 'Borged' any companies that would help it in developing state of the art TIC solutions. Whether such a powerful company is good for the marketplace I will not say, but they can certainly claim to have some of the best TIC manufacturing credentials in the world.http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/view/?id=55679http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLIR_SystemsFrom the Wiki page it may be seen that FLIR has different divisions for different areas of the market. This may explain the significant differences between my industrial grade TICs and the consumer/commercial units like the i7.This page gives a very interesting insight into FLIR and the change in the companies direction with regard to consumer devices:http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/flir-systems-inc-history/It would appear that we have FLIR to thank for reducing the cost of TICs to consumer budget prices !Thanks again

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 08:56:09 am
content: It appears that FLIR has its 'cross-hairs' on the latest Infrared visual thermometers with a view to showing how poorly they perform.Take a look here:http://www.flir.com/visual-ir-thermometer.cfml[/url

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 09:47:22 am
content: Sneak peek at E4 sensor - and no this hasnotbeen taken out of a sealed can!Some major packaging cost reduction. Datastream suggests raw format is 320x240 at 60fps.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 09:54:11 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 11, 2013, 09:47:22 am:GRIN:Are you actually suggesting the sensor in the E4 is 320x240?If so they're probably sensors with many bad pixels that would otherwise be useless for making perfect higher res units.Few bad spots @ 320x240@60hz is still infinitely better than 80x60@9

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 10:01:12 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 11, 2013, 09:54:11 am... available on some nice big test pads...

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 10:43:41 am
content: Why does it look like a scratch/mark on that black piece?

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 11:15:53 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 11, 2013, 09:47:22 amAnd you intend to reverse it yes?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 11:29:10 am
content: Quote from: amyk on October 10, 2013, 11:44:22 amI called it first!I have a feeling things are going to get ratherhotin this thread pretty soon...

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 12:22:12 pm
content: If you stop and listen very carefully you can just hear the screams of Oh Sh*t ! at FLIR HQ

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 12:28:17 pm
content: A word of warning though....it is extremely easy to prevent a 320x240 micro-bolometer being used above a 80x60 format, and it does not require any electronic trickery, so the possibility of hacking could be quickly removed. Buy standard units while you canIt would be interesting to know what responsibility, if any, FLIR has for preventing hacking of their units to a higher specification.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 01:11:55 pm
content: It'll certainly be interesting to see how this plays out... companies and such are likely to not want to void the warranty on such an expensive device (and probably some hobbyists too), but this might just lead to FLIR suddenly getting a ton of E4 sales. Almost a parallel to the Rigol situation.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 01:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 10, 2013, 10:06:31 pmHave you tried this actually?Normal window class is pretty much non-transparent and reasonably high emissivity for thermal cameras because of the wavelengt, so I would expect pretty much the same from ordinary household mirror, ie thermal camera shows more or less glass surface temperature?For successful infrared mirror you would need first-surface mirror coated with gold or something like that.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 01:58:50 pm
content: Oh, and there's a serial port (winCE debug console) and I2C bus, connected to an eeprom which happens to contain production data like serial numbers. cal dates, both available on an internal connector that needs minimal disassembly to plug into. Of course there could be some robust protection in there somewhere - not played much yet - just been observing.And AFICS no warranty seal. You would need to use the second disassembly method shown in my video though - thoings got a bit violent before I figured out the right way....Still shooting, and a shitload of editing to do, so maybe sometime over the weekend.

author: Sar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 02:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: mzzj on October 11, 2013, 01:53:37 pmThat's not true, attached is a photo I took of myself with a Flir, that is the reflection from normal single pane window glass.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 02:25:09 pm
content: Mike, I was in the market for a low end TIC and your review helped me to make a decision, thanks. Just placed an order for an E4, will see how it goes, I always envied Superman's IR vision. Dave, thanks for the negative VT02 review, it prevented me from buying it.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 02:36:42 pm
content: mzzj,Yes, such has been a regular occurrence in my use of TIC's. You are correct that a surface coated mirror would be most efficient but remember that glass will reflect my body heat quite effectively as well.I attach a picture that I just took looking at my mirror....just for you

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 03:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: nowlan on October 11, 2013, 10:43:41 amDust/dirt/hair

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 03:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 11, 2013, 12:22:12 pmThey haven't seen the vid yet....

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 03:59:42 pm
content: Mike, your reputation for detailed tear downs goes before you ....... they are likely wringing their hands in anticipation of a potential discovery that the whole new E series are actually pretty much the same electronics package with only software config differences !I am not predicting an easy hack of the firmware though.....that may be quite well defended ?It is interesting that the firmware in my PM570 cameras states "Elite Configuration" whilst others show "PRO Configuration" on what appear to be the same hardware. The "Configuration" just adds or removes capabilities. If this was the case in the late 1990's it could still be the case now.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 04:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on October 11, 2013, 09:54:11 amI would say the probability of there being 4 different sensors for teh 4 models is near-zero. However I don't know if all the datastream is as meaningful as its bandwidth suggests, or if the datastream I saw was coming out of the sensor or was a processed stream from the FPGA. However 14-16 bit raw sensor data would be my bet at this stage. This would need some processing to make it useful.Been busy with work all day but back on it tonight. Assuming the Black Helicopters don't get me first.AFAICS they have integrated the ADC on the sensor die, and some unbonded pads that look like they're used for test, so it's not impossible that they could have some fuses on there to cripple it some fairly robust way. there are some rather odd looking structures visible on the die.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 04:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 11, 2013, 03:59:42 pmMaybe, maybe not. Could be anywhere between impossible and trivial from what I've seen so far. Even if the sensor is hard-crippled, there may be scope to enable the options of the higher models. There is also a plausible route to a plug-in mod that makes no permanent change to the device (See Agilent MSOX thread)

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 04:23:02 pm
content: Mike,I suspect you have many of us on the edge of our seatsThanks for your efforts

author: nixxon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 04:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: StevenWhitney on October 11, 2013, 12:39:20 amLet's say you measure the temperature of a polished gold sphere with an emissivity of 0.03. Then 97% of the reading would be of the temperature of the environment, and not the gold sphere.So if the gold sphere was 100 'C and the environment reflecting on the sphere was 0'C, the temperature reading would be way too low, maybe between 3 and 4 'C.If you set the emissivity in the TIC to 0.03 and the Background Temperature to 0'C, I believe the idea is that the reading of the TIC would be correct (100'C). When looking at a circuit board with dozens of different materials, it is not possible to set the emissivity correctly for more than one of the materials. So, I guess the usefulness of the Emissivity setting is limited, and should be left at something like 0.95 normally. Then you evaluate simply put into the equation that shiny metal readings are not likely to be correct, and put a piece of tape onto these objects or paint which has high emissivity.However the shiny metals we may want to measure the temperature of in a circuit (copper trace or - cable) often conducts (by contact) it's heat to nearby materials with higher emissivity, i.e. the PCB or a cable insulation. Then the near by PCB or cable insulation would be close to the real temperature of the copper trace or -cable.The only thing that has an emissivity of 1.000000000 and would give a 100% correct reading on a TIC is a theoretical abstraction called a Black Body.Here is a link to an emissivity table I found after a quick search:http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.htmlI have not checked how close it is to other tables by Fluke/Flir etc.

author: Hamster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 04:54:57 pm
content: i do board repair, and was thinking of picking one of these up, i clearly see it doesn't have a good close up / high resolution that would be needed... thanks for saving me the $$ !

author: azinfrared
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 05:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: StevenWhitney on October 11, 2013, 03:10:09 pmThis is not true. I am a level III thermographier and I can tell you that most of the information I learned is not available anywhere except via training. And the training is vastly different between sources.

author: azinfrared
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 05:26:04 pm
content: New E series as a whole are not great units for most applications.They are super low res, no focus ring, no range and span control. Focus and range/span control are basic functions that are needed for most applications.Find attached 3 images that were taken within 10 seconds of each other. Everything is the same between the images with the exception of the range/span setting.The biggest detail that is easy to notice is between the first image and the 3rd image (cold cup). Note the inside rim of the cup where the water is not touching. Huge detail difference between that one and the image with both cups in it.Low end cameras are just that, low end. You will not produce imagery like the ones shown here with these systems. They really should call these systems, limited IR. They are IR but the details missed would render them useless to anyone doing IR professionally.The FLIR E40 is really the current entry level cam, IMO.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 06:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: Hamster on October 11, 2013, 04:54:57 pmThe lens is adjustable, so should be able to get closer focus - I only noticed when it was apart so not sure how easy when assembled - may just need a tool. May leave this to a seperate vid once I also get the ZnSe lenses to try.

author: azinfrared
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 06:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: nixxon on October 11, 2013, 04:50:02 pmThe problem with this example is your target. Round objects (round in any fashion) appear hotter the nearer you get to the edge of the object (where the deflection of light is the most). Yes you have reflection issues going on as well. Ultimately, this target is a nightmare for IR. Round, bad emitter, etc.Also keep in mind that emmissivity is only for accurate temps. If you have two gold sphere and you know the tolerances for operating temps then you can simply compare the two within an image. A better example is a room full of motors and the motors are exactly the same type, load, etc.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 06:23:56 pm
content: Quote from: azinfrared on October 11, 2013, 05:26:04 pmBut they affordable to a lot of users who couldn't justify the cost of a high-end TIC, and are MUCH more useful than a spot IR thermometer.Maybe less so for evaluating heat loss in buildings, but things like electrical faultfinding and condition checking can easily do without high resolutionthe E4 does have range lock, so you can compare images with the same scaling, but you can't manually set the range.QuoteThat is a ludicrous statement. Tool snobbery even. TICs have many different applications, and for some users, the E4 is more than adequate for a wide range of tasks.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 06:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 11, 2013, 09:47:22 amA less exciting possibility is that the stream is simply a serialised vesrion of the image data it's sending to the SoC for display. Hopefully not though - it will be very easy to determine this once I get back to it.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 06:37:28 pm
content: Mike,I had missed that the unit is not able to be set into manual span and centre temperature mode. I am very sad to hear that as it is important in my experience. As you say, the E4 will suit some users basic needs but the loss of the manual span and C.Temp mode is a great pity. FLIR are protecting the sales of their higher end units as manual mode is purely a software function.

author: azinfrared
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 07:57:21 pm
content: Quote from: StevenWhitney on October 11, 2013, 07:09:24 pmYou seem a little angry.Emissivity is not a resolution scale. Emissivity is a correction to the emittence level of an object. As already stated by an earlier poster nothing emits IR energy at the same rate.As far as training, SNT-TC-1A is widely considered the go to certification for anything related to non destructive testing. Not just IR. Real world engineers (not message board ones) are almost always certified under this standard and it is easily the most accepted throughout all fields of NDT.I do invite you to check outwww.irinfo.org. It has many papers, articles and white papers on emissivity as well as many other resources for thermal imaging systems and radiometers in general.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 08:16:07 pm
content: azinfrared,Thank you for the interesting web link.Fraser

author: azinfrared
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 08:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 11, 2013, 08:16:07 pmNo problem. Super good stuff on there. In addition, it is owned by Jim Seffrin. Jim is probably the leading authority on IR in the USA. When IR litigation happens throughout the country, he is usually the first phone call made to be the expert witness.

author: azinfrared
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 08:23:18 pm
content: By the way. Brenton Ward is down in your parts (AU).He is another big time authority in IR.His company is Industrial Precision Instruments. You can google them. They go by IPI.He teaches all levels of IR, down under.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 08:31:20 pm
content: Just found an interesting image enhancement article by NEC Avio on the IRInfo site. Interesting reading. My PM695 has some image enhancement capability that I have yet to explore fully.http://www.irinfo.org/Articles/4_1_2012_tamura.htmlAnd an interesting article on the less obvious uses for a TIC written by FLIRhttp://www.irinfo.org/Articles/article_10_2003_flir_keane.htmlAnd another article:http://www.irinfo.org/Articles/article_12_2003_stockton.htmlAnd this on the proprietary data formats output by TIC'shttp://www.irinfo.org/Articles/article_4_2006_colbert.htmland finally, an explanation of specshttp://www.irinfo.org/articles/11_01_2012_swirnow.htmlThere are plenty of interesting articles to read on the site. Worth taking a look.

author: azinfrared
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 08:36:51 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 11, 2013, 06:23:56 pmThere is a right tool for the job and a not right tool for the job, not sure how that is "tool snobbery". I don't think you would be doing PQA with a Fluke 116.......does that make the person that owns a Fluke 435 a snob? Sounds more like hating to me.You are correct with the range/span lock. It does it. It isn't just the one thing that makes it a bad cam.Look at the end of the day there are two things to consider here. First, these cams exist because of politics, not necessarily because of the interest of the end user. I invite you to look at the legal history of Fluke and FLIR. These cams are a direct attack on Fluke from FLIR. Second factor. I am telling you to go buy a $4k camera. I am just telling you within the FLIR line, you should either not buy a camera or buy an E40.I am not sure what everyone's time is worth, but as a professional business the time you are wasting screwing around with your lock feature for range and span, someone with a cam that does have it will outperform you over time. If you bill at $80 an hour it only takes 35 hours of your lock/hold range/span savings to be eroded. Once that savings is gone, you are left with a lower resolution, lower temp, no span/range, no focus ring, etc camera, while someone that bought the E40 will have all kinds of time savings features and reporting ability.I am talking strictly to professionals here. If you are buying a cam to look at something homemade or your wife naked, then the E4 will do what you want.....unless it goes over 250C. However, in a professional atmosphere it is a waist of wages and time, in the long run.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 09:36:23 pm
content: Cleaning your TIC lens....it can get ugly if you do it wrong !http://www.thesnellgroup.com/Content/infrared-tip-ir-camera-lens-cleaning.aspx?utm_source=Knowledge+Briefs+from+The+Snell+Group&utm_campaign=55959c1605-IR_for_CM_July_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a53635059c-55959c1605-&utm_source=Knowledge+Briefs+from+The+Snell+Group&utm_campaign=55959c1605-IR_for_CM_July_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a53635059c-55959c1605-99218454

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 09:37:03 pm
content: Quote from: azinfrared on October 11, 2013, 08:36:51 pmYou seem to have a rather narrow view of what "the job" is.QuoteAgain you seem to have a rather narrow view of possible applications.If your job comprises finding shorts on PCBs or wiring, for example, you really don't care much about absolute readings, just quickly locating hotspots. An E4 is more than adequate for this job, and a more expensive cam would not save a significant amount of time in this application, taking into account the proportion of time for whit it gets used.QuoteAssuming you care about absolute temperatureQuoteThere are plenty of professionals in many fields (outside of mainstream/traditional thermography) for whom a $4K cam would not be justfiable, but an $800 one would easily pay for itself.The E4 is aimed as people for whom the choice is between no camera or a low-end one, not thise whose work would be speeded up signifcantly by having a higher end device.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 09:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: azinfrared on October 11, 2013, 08:36:51 pmYou are right - there is a right tool for the job. It displays an incredible ignorance of the field of thermal imaging to think that nothing less than an E40 is the right tool.QuoteA ludicrous statement. Why should someone spend 400% more on a camera if an E4 will do what they need?QuoteI think your understanding of the world of thermal imaging is limited to people who buy these cameras to bill out per hour. There are many many other uses for them besides that use case.QuoteNonsense. Any businessman knows that you buy what you need, not what you would get "if money was no object". Buying what you need allows you to buy more of what you need rather than having a smaller number of tools which have capabilities beyond what you need. I am sure there are video forums where some folks think anything less than a $20k professional video camera are worthless. As Mike said - that is called tool snobbery.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 10:11:03 pm
content: Quote from: azinfrared on October 11, 2013, 08:36:51 pmOk I have to reply now.Yes FLIR the original maker of thermal cameras has now decided to expand their market share into the consumer market. I say why not be closer to the optics sources.Yes the E40 is a great camera but not the only choice. Initially I also thought the A series was my only option. After allot of research and drawing on others personal experience I found out my requirements have been served by an E30. When in manual I can differentiate temperatures of 12mil pitch (4mil trace 8mil isolation). Some users don't need more. The one thing I find I have compromised and the E40 users do too is a mounting method to hold they camera still enough to get any finer detail.I also paid near 4k for my E30 and I find it to be great. I am personally following this tread to find out how well this less expensive option performs. Frankly the sensor in the E30 I have is more than I need for DIY. I use company cameras at work also, which are less capable than mine unfortunately.I do agree with you last statement to a degree. The attitude of pay up or go home is not fair to "professionals" starting to use IR cameras. This is a budget issue not a worthiness issue. This thread has the potential to answer the capabilities questions so a valid cost effectiveness decision can be made.The one thing that makes this camera a possibility is the short focal length. Most others I have researched are more for building inspectors rather than electronics. FLIR has identified near inspection market and I am pleased to see they have included this low cost option in this category.Anyone that wants an instant on IR Camera, you will pay allot more with drastically lower quality. IR cameras use warm or cold detectors to measure IR differentials, then translates them to reference to ambient. Therefore the sensor needs to change its temp to its relative temp with minimal thermal shock. The faster turn on low differential sensors simply can not achieve the accuracy that the optics in these FLIR optics can. With my E30 I can estimate current flow in a trace when set up correctly (no solder resist or conformal, haven't needed to try with coatings yet).

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 10:23:28 pm
content: i was trying to save up money but this E4 TIC is tempting me something chronic.If mikes poking and prodding of the unit yields info that it really has full res/frame rate data coming out of the sensor then i really cant see how i can resist buying one.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2013, 10:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 11, 2013, 02:36:42 pmYeah, You are right, the glass itself works as a mirror, backside coating has little to do with it I guess."Quite effective" in this case is reflectance of 15% or so. Not a very good mirror but plentiful enough to see the difference on thermal camera.85% emissivity gives you 2,4 degree error if your face is +35 degrees Cel and mirror (and the rest of the room) is at 20 degrees. So your mirror-image face should show a temp of 22,4 degrees...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 12:26:53 am
content: This is worrying :Right at the start of theWinCE bootup messages :QuoteFrom the Freescale mcimx257 datasheet :QuoteHowever... the brief datasheet I have states that the 257 version of the processor used in the E4 does NOT include the "Security" module. You also have to wonder why there would be an external RTC...Proceeding with caution.....

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 12:30:57 am
content: Is there complex math involved in processing the image thermal camera sensors?Or is it relatively simpleIf hacking it proves impossible, might be simple enough to solder a new MCU in and write some new code from scratch.Assuming this protection isn't part of the sensor itself.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 01:16:56 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 12, 2013, 12:30:57 amI suspect there are a number of proprietory processes between raw sensor data and nice images. At the very least range scaling, reference level calibration, noise reduction, maybe some edge enhancement, emissivity correction etc. Maybe some geometry tweaking for a cheap lens.I suspect the raw data would be useable visually, but converting to meaningful temperature could be somewhat involved. Definitely FPGA territory and not MCU. However as the data timing is already a very close fit for VGA or an LCD panel, it won't be much work to just throw it on a panel to see what it looks like - scaling the 14 bit value to a colour range is easy enough.As I already have some boards with an FPGA and LCD inerface on them, and there are only 3 pins to connect to the E4, I suspect this will happen at some point.....There is enough space inside that you could even do an internal PCB that could switch the LCD between their output and "yours", which could make for a rather interesting user-installable "upgrade kit", though you wouldn't easily be able to save high-res images without a lot more complexity.Maybe you could even extrapolate some cal data in real time from their imageFunnily enough the abovementioned FPGA boards do actually havetwoLCD connectors on them. Hmmmmm

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 12:03:28 pm
content: Oh Heck, the spectre of tamper protection and IDS in a productAs most will know, Credit Card machines have incorporated such defences for many years. I work in a world where such measures are common but thankfully they had not entered the consumer product markets.For the Hackers and curious amongst us..... imagine consumer grade equipment of the future incorporating tamper traps and IDS in the chip sets. Where removing a screw, opening part of the case, separating PCB's or trying to access a JTAG connector functionality causes a self destruct or disablement routine in the chipsetSuch defences already exist in specialist equipment that the manufacturer wishes to defend against tampering, modification or industrial espionage. It just costs a little more to incorporate into a design and is often made available via chipset features in the more advanced devices. It is hard to interrogate or hack a device if it goes 'poof!' as soon as you open its case or poke it with some exploratory signals/data.FLIR's most significant sales are in the Military arena. It is not surprising that some of their chips or software may show signs of tamper detection and IDS. Hopefully not enabled on the cheaper consumer grade products.It will be a sad day when manufacturers use advanced techniques to prevent you even opening an equipment's case. Imagine the iPad....you would not be able to even replace the battery without destroying the OS or chipset ! The manufacturer may say that it is to protect the consumer or their IPR but I am not sure of the legality in causing someone's product to self destruct if the case is opened.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 03:04:59 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 12, 2013, 12:03:28 pmIf manufacturers really wanted to lock down equipment, there are numerous ways they could do it cheaply and effectively.In practice most don't give it much consideration. Video game consoles and credit card terminal are the only mass-market items I can think of that have any serious attempt at security ( and even those have been mostly broken, though the skills of some of the breakers are breathtaking!)In the particular case of tamper detection and reaction, the risks of accidental deployment must be carefully considered - an unintended shutdown can cause way more damage to business and confidence than losses due to hacking.There are also significant issues throughout the whole production and support logistics process- debug and test functionality often provides a way in, but omitting it can lead to more trouble.Security needs to be designed in from the ground up, and for applications whose core function is not security-focusses, this can easily be neglected at the specification stage, and it is hard to add later, especially as release deadlines approach. Adding a 3rd party OS to the mix only makes things worse.Considering the ITAR issues, I'm surprised that a company selling a product containing a custom made 60FPS 320x240 TIC imager chip with onboard ADC didn't appear to think add even a token amount of encryption or obfucation to a simple binary datastream. Oops - did I give something away there

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 03:10:41 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2013, 03:04:59 pmI like the book and can't wait for the movie

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 03:18:35 pm
content: Oh Mike, you big teaseI am seriously wondering about this whole ITAR issue. It may be a bit like the reverse SMA connectors fitted to Wi-Fi, a deterrent to misuse but by no means an effective measure against such by skilled persons.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 03:39:20 pm
content: Itar is not really effective any more, as the technologies are no longer made exclusively in the USA, and the other players are getting better every year.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 04:06:50 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 12, 2013, 03:18:35 pmI suspect there is quite a lot of interpretation involved, especially when it comes to component parts and what might reasonably be expected to be modified. Sort of like when does a lump of metal become a gun....

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 04:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 12, 2013, 03:39:20 pmBut the people in charge of this stuff move at glacial pace. I think there are still issues with anything that contains encryption, like Bluetooth modules.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 04:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 12, 2013, 03:10:41 pmI'm taking things slowly and carefully.... will be in the next couple of days.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 04:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on October 11, 2013, 10:23:28 pmIndeed. Having a low end thermal imager in the toolbox has been on the wish list for a long time now. The < $1000 price point already was pretty tempting. And now Mike teases us with 320x240 @60fps unencrypted bit streams. How the hell am I supposed to hang on to that tax refund now?!?@Mike:Have you checked what happens to the bitstream if you place a horizontal/vertical grating of hot/cold/hot/cold in front of it? Any totally obvious patterns to be seen in the bitstream?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 04:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 12, 2013, 04:13:10 pmIt's way, way simpler than that. All you need is a slowly moving hot soldering iron, a can of feezer and a scope. Imagine the simplest way you could think of to encode a stream of 16 bit words on a clock+data pair. The only complication is there are 2 pins each outputting 160 words per line - I'm currently hooking up a more mechanically stable probing system to see both streams at once to see how they are are interleaved.Bear in mind that this is raw data - at the very least you'd need to store the reference image during shutter calibration, subtract it out of the live frames and apply a scaling factor.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 04:48:32 pm
content: We can just about read the sensor like some cheap ass 3 wire serial ADCs?!I received my pay check just this Thursday and I'm starting to feel the burn already.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 05:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2013, 04:30:15 pmDamn, that sounds criminally simple. So basically 2 internal ADC's that spit out 16-bit words in SPI fashion? Even taking into account the non-trivial work you'd have to do to get an imagine from the raw data, this all sounds very interesting.Quote from: Hypernova on October 12, 2013, 04:48:32 pmBetter get that E4 to properly image the burn.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 06:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: Hypernova on October 12, 2013, 04:48:32 pmNot quite cheap-ass - it does come out at 75mbits/sec

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 06:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2013, 06:17:54 pmMakes sense: 60*320*240*16= 73.7 Mbps

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 06:57:26 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2013, 06:17:54 pmInterleaved over 2 channels at half that rate, right? Incidentally, what IO standard is it?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 07:29:24 pm
content: A question about the camera I didn't catch an answer to in the video: does it have a tripod mount? It seems like it would be highly useful in many cases to mount the camera on a tripod.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 07:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 12, 2013, 07:29:24 pmI recall mention of there NOT being a mount point, and that being a source of mild disappointment.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 07:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: azinfrared on October 11, 2013, 05:19:26 pmThis is a deep misunderstanding. There are two ways information can be learned: either someone tells it to you, or you discover it for yourself. Anything you or I may have been trained in was at some time deduced by someone who was first on the scene with nobody going before to train them.It's similar to the question I often get asked, "Which book did you learn that from?" The questioner tends to forget that someone had to write the book...In summary, information isalwaysavailable to those who can teach themselves, especially and particularly in the field of science. It is not limited to what you can learn from others.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 08:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on October 12, 2013, 07:29:24 pmNo. The Ex0 range have a tripod mount accessory option but not clear if this fits the Ex range. However the handle is nice and straight, so something 4" long with a tripod thread could be fixed to it with velcro cable ties

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 08:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 12, 2013, 06:57:26 pmSort of - 2.5v levels, 2 simultaneous, pixel-interleaved streams that last for half the line period, the other half is idle.Using a thin hot wire target to test, I am now 100% certain it is really 320x240

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 08:44:31 pm
content: With that information, it is evident that FLIR are charging a somewhat inflated price for the E8 as it is likely a software configuration difference and a slightly different lens between the models.OR it could be that all units are identical hardware (including lens) and the software interpretation of the imager chip output provides the various resolutions. i.e, 4 pixelss combined (averaged) in the E4 creating 1 low resolution pixel, and the single pixels read in the E8.Interesting times indeed. The 320x240 detectors must be getting cheaper to manufacture as FLIR would not waste money.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 08:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 12, 2013, 08:44:31 pmThe sensor design is very interesting - must be hugely cheaper to make. And has the ADC on-chip. I suspect this has been driven by potential future automotive applications.If you look at the specs there is a sudden jump in sensitivity, particularly between E5 and E6 which I suspect it is a lens change.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 09:19:42 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 12, 2013, 07:32:18 pmNow there's a job for a 3D printer!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 09:34:39 pm
content: There is actually space in the bottom of the battery moulding to add a tripod thread, and this is part of the battery so any warranty issue would be avoided by not returning the battery (due to shipping regs of course!)

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 10:07:46 pm
content: This is getting better and better... Flir must be making a huge profit on those sensors! In contrast from what I see about the Chinese cameras, they appear to really be using sensors of the resolution they claim - e.g. Dali make a160x120,384x244, and640x480and they're all physically different sizes.And everything I could find about the i.MX25 series suggests that only the highest end '258 has the security module so the messages you're seeing are probably from the driver they left in the OS (maybe for some higher-end/military model?) --- given they left the wlan one in too, and who knows what else.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 10:32:22 pm
content: I stumbled upon a forum discussing another consumer FLIR offering, the FLIR SCOUT. The chap discovered that his TIC responded to the TAU core controller software and in fact contained the TAU engine.He didn't risk uploading the fully fledged Tau firmware though.http://www.t2iforum.com/47/thermal-imaging-(flir)/http://www.t2iforum.com/47/thermal-imaging-(flir)/15/He refers to a 'document' that details FLIRs usage of common cores across their range, but sadly no link to that document.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2013, 11:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 12, 2013, 10:07:46 pm..and expensive hermetic metal packages.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 07:57:52 am
content: A simple reason for the sensors being the same is the lower cost ones failed final test in some way that made them no longer usable at the full resolution. Like stuck pixels in the outer section, very hot or very cold pixels in the image that will be out of the calibration range at full resolution but will be fine when averaged with neighbours, or dead rows or columns in the outer areas. Averaging 4 pixels to make the lower resolution unit or 16 to make the very low res unit makes sense to use an otherwise wasted chip, bonding, 2 die stack and package that has been up till final test a functional unit electrically but a poor thermal performer.

author: neggles
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 08:22:20 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 13, 2013, 07:57:52 amor, you know, the even simpler reason of "making lots of one kind of chip and changing some settings is a lot cheaper and easier than making four kinds of chip"

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 08:23:38 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 13, 2013, 07:57:52 amI have seen at least one thermal camera with 4x4 dead pixel group, this was "fixed" in firmware by interpolating the nearest pixels on both sides.The dead pixel group showed up really nasty when sharp temperature gradient was over that area, one side white another side blue and red square block in the middle.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 09:22:47 am
content: Quote from: neggles on October 13, 2013, 08:22:20 amI suspect that the simpler simpler reason is very close to what SeanB describes. Indeed make a one size fits all sensor. And then put the best ones in the high end gear, and the ones with a defect here and there in the low end. Then during image processing average/decimate a bunch of pixels and you have your low res result. And they probably truncate the LSBs as well if they really average 16 subpixels for one pixel on the E4. Because the temperature resolution on the E4 is quite a bit lower than on the high end gear. You'd think that with a bit of statistics they could get better temp resolution on the E4. Or is this also a matter of the lens material used?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 09:37:45 am
content: The FLIR TAU core has evolved into the new TAU2Take a look here:http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=60983http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=54717http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=54717&collectionid=612&col=54726You will see that the TAU has electronic zoom, how convenient for producing low pixel count products via software alone !Tau is designed to OEM incorporation into both high and low cost products. It is not beyond possibility that Tau2 micro-bolometer and support chip set lives inside the new E Series. There is also the FLIR Quark to considerController software for the TAU and QUARK is here:http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=51880According to the text, the hardware is fault tolerant and a new firmware does not overwrite the factory firmwareSome interesting reading on the FLIR OEM CORE pages especially under the documents tab.http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=54717&collectionid=612&col=54721Manuals available here:http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=51878

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 09:43:12 am
content: Teardown threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg309199/?topicseen#msg309199

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 09:57:10 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 13, 2013, 09:37:45 amData format I saw is very close to that shown in the Tau electrical spec. I noticed various sync markers, which are probably the same

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 10:58:25 am
content: What's also interesting is in the boot log it says:FVD_Init: Downsampling setting: 0x00...FVD_Init: Downsampling setting: 80 60Right after loading the fpga bitstream. And then further down you have:FVD_Init: Downsampling setting: 0x00FVD_Init: re-read the hardware information x: 80, y: 60And the camera fps settings with "jitterlimit 134mS" is floating around in there as well. Or jitteblimit depending on random errors while grabbing the serial port.Thanks for the tear down! I loved the bit where you stuck a metal plate in front and then slowly heated it. Watch that binary reading go up on the scope.That video may very well end up costing me EUR 995.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 01:49:01 pm
content: Wonder if the I2C eeprom has any checksum

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 09:20:17 pm
content: Quote from: neggles on October 13, 2013, 08:22:20 amI think you are right. It would be very hard, I would think, to manage supply if you were using QC-failed chips in lower end units. You will almost inevitably have too many failed chips, or too few. For a company like Intel who sells their chips to other vendors, this isn't a big deal, as if you have too many, you offer them at a sale price, and if you have too few, the price goes up. Vendors using Intel chips also have a lot of alternatives to choose from. But whereas FLIR uses the chips themselves, they don't really have those options. So I tend to think they just use the exact same chip and I bet most if not all pass the "full" QC check just fine.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 10:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 13, 2013, 09:20:17 pmI suppose it depends on the number and nature of the typical faults that come out of the process. A lot of random bad pixels would be hard to deal with, but Mapping out the odd few bad pixels from a 320x240 when downscaling to 80x60 could probably be done automatically by looking for differences from neighbours.If this is done, then some simple production criteria for numbers of bad pixels and minimum distance between them could be used for selection. Considering the big price difference between models,Ifthey have significant numbers of only-just-bad die it would probably be worth using them.From what I've seen so far there is not enough NV memory to store a full bad pixel map. I doubt it would be in main flash as all other production data (including sensor serial no) is in the eeprom.As & when I get time to look at the raw data it should be fairly obvious. It will also be interesting to see what the output looks like before flat-field correction

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 10:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 13, 2013, 10:14:03 pmHow big is that eeprom? A sparsely populated 76800-bit map with some RLE doesn't take up all that much space I'd think.But as you say, in the end it would depend on the nature of the defects, of which I am blissfully ignorant.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 11:13:51 pm
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 13, 2013, 10:32:16 pm2kbit. Not looked at all of it but there's quite a lot of ASCII strings in there so no room for more than addresses of a very few pixels. Highly doubt it.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2013, 11:47:27 pm
content: Mmmh, that does sound a bit cramped yes. You can do a lot with 1 kbit compressed, but more knowledge required on the typical distributions. Ah well, no doubt things will become more obvious when you take a closer look at the raw data.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 12:50:47 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 13, 2013, 10:58:25 amI suspect this is it telling the FPGA how to do the downsampling - I'm pretty sure the FPGA generates all the display data at the LCD's resolution and framerate, throws it into the ARM's camera interface, and the ARM just plots its text/graphics overlay on top and bungs it out to the LCD. The initial display at startup before WinCE starts may be being done mostly/entirely by DMA

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 01:08:52 am
content: Being a very new product i wonder if this unencrypted 320x240@60 output was a mistake.Its possible they will remove it with a firmware update as soon as they realize.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 01:18:35 am
content: Not much they can do about it if it's the sensor module (microbolometer + ADC) that spit's out this raw data stream. That would require more just just a firmware upgrade to get that data encrypted. Best case scenario it will end up in a "Lessons Learned" document somewhere.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 01:26:23 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 14, 2013, 12:50:47 amThat seems likely yes. One single fpga bitstream for the entire Ex series. And then default the downsampling to a very convenient all zeroes register value. As in even if you don't command it to setting 0x00, it'll already be running at this setting. Mmmh, it would be interesting to see a vid from someone showing the bootup sequence of an E5 or higher. Anyways, it commands the fpga to 80x60 downsampling, and then later it seems like it is reading the register (with downsampling setting) from fpga to confirm if it's correctly set.There's probably an SPI port or something similar between cpu and fpga for commands and such. Can't think of why they would need anything more complicated than that...

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 02:00:42 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 14, 2013, 01:18:35 amUnless the sensor has the option for encryption and they just forgot to enable it when shipping the first units.It would be easy to miss something like that if they were fixing bugs right up until the last minute when sending the production firmware for manufacturing.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 02:16:57 am
content: Quote from: StevenWhitney on October 14, 2013, 01:43:19 amI meant it as: behave like a regular end user (NOT opening up anything), then boot it up, and point a video camera at the E5 display. The point of that excercise being to see what the resolution is juuuuuuust after the fpga bitstream loads, and before windows CE gets another chance to change the downsampling setting. Quite possible there's nothing to be seen, but also possible you see it start up at low res, and then suddenly jump to slightly higher res during bootup.Quote from: Psi on October 14, 2013, 02:00:42 amMmmh, good point. I should hope that's not the case, but it wouldn't be the first time that the new guy forgot to set the CRYPT_THAT_SHIT define back to 1 after debugging.Although thinking some more about it, it would seem a bit silly to encrypt a module like that with a bare die like that. And the module was a 2009 module, right? So the interface to that should be old hat for the Flir people. Anyways, will be interesting to see what the raw data looks like.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 06:31:25 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on October 14, 2013, 02:16:57 amyeah, i think it's unlikely, but i don't want to get my hopes up too quickly

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 08:59:48 am
content: Quote from: StevenWhitney on October 14, 2013, 01:39:46 amProbably avarages pixels - sampling every 16th wouldn't look as good, and would be noisy.It may also be avaraging multiple frames from the 60fps feed to reduce noise.

author: mobbarley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 10:54:07 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2013, 08:56:21 pmHighly likely - Lens coatings make a big difference here, for example umicore's LWIR lenses typically range from ">90%" transmission with their iDLC coating to ">97%" with their HEAR coating.Thermal imagers have a large dynamic range and the FPGA is probably not only doing the flat field calibration but the tone mapping as well - the FPGA could just be truncating a bit or so of the sensor's output in the lower models to reduce sensitivity....

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 11:49:58 am
content: Quote from: mobbarley on October 14, 2013, 10:54:07 amMy guess is it would be a bigger lens, to improve detail for 320x240 mode. Haven't yet found a clear image online of the front of all the versions.There is also the issue of signal to noise ratio - downsampling 320x240 to 80x60 will also reduce noise, but for 320x240 it needs more light to get the same noise level.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 12:11:22 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 14, 2013, 08:59:48 amCould it be that the raw 60fps data is too noisy to be of any use so it must be averaged, dropping the framerate to < 9fps? (This may mean the export-restricted version may need to clock the sensor even higher.)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2013, 10:56:02 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 14, 2013, 12:11:22 pmIt is noisy - you can see it on the scope. Hard to see how noisy till it gets to a screen.It may be that for really useable 60fps you need a much bigger lens - the Ex0 series do appear to have significantly bigger lenses, while the sensitivity at 320x240 is almost the same

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 12:12:33 am
content: Meanwhile, back at Flir..."Why are we getting so many orders for Ex0 series replacement lenses"

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 01:33:58 am
content: Surprised me to see a 40K LE part in there. They could've used a small 30k part but didn't. As I understand it, tone mapping is a lot like dynamic range compression in audio, which requires some competent dsp in 1 dimension, let alone two.If the fpga is wired to the CSI input on the i.mx then it will still need to have some sort of ECSPI/i2c communication for setting parameters. That'd be where I'd start looking. (Assuming the 9fps is capped in the fpga for extra averaging time)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 07:28:50 am
content: Quote from: marshallh on October 15, 2013, 01:33:58 amI'm sure they would have if they could. Bear in mind the hardware may well be the same or similar for the 60fps Ex0 models, and you don't know how much processing is needed between the sensor and a calibrated thermal image. Remember it's also doing the processing of the visible camera data.QuoteYes, but with 2 BGAs on a 6 or 8 layer PCB it could be tough to find.

author: CzokNorris
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 09:29:20 pm
content: Hi,hi Dave, hi mike, your channels are awesome!!This seems to be a thread about mikes last FLIR E4 teardown - bet the folks at FLIR HQ are now really fearfully subscribing :-)I had some thoughts yesterday:Well, I wonder wether FLIR would sell their sensor assembly as replacement part - and if they do, how much it would cost. Getting a germanium lens from somewhere shouldn't be that much of a problem...I have recently done some FPGA projects in VHDL at University and I bet its not very difficult to build something simple and cheap on a Spartan 6 to translate the sensor output to a visible image. VGA on an FPGA is more or less trivial and all the image stuff cant be that hard! Its just 320x240 @ 60 fps... Thats not particularily much data - especially since todays FPGAs contain enough S-Ram to allow for a full frame Buffer.VGA OutputSay we have 256 colors on our output - this is one byte per pixel. One Frame contains 76k Pixels. So we need 76 kilobyte of Ram that is fast enough just for the output buffer.Now lets see the input:We have the AD on the chip which is providing around 16 bits of data per Pixel. So we get double the output data as raw in from the sensor, which is 150 kilobyte of raw AD-output per frame. The fact that its in two lanes which somehow each only cover 160 of the 320 total lines is interesting too, but not a big problem.So our fpga needs at least around 300 kilobytes of Sram or dual port ram.Now lets see how fast we need this ram to be:We get 320*240*60 pixels per second which is a pixel clock of 5 megahertz. Thats a needed ram access time of 200 nanoseconds if the fpga has got a ram bus width of at least our needed 16 bits - no problem for sram which goes down to 50 nanoseconds without any problems...Ok, now lets see how i would build our machine. Please corret me if i am wrong on something:First we pick an FPGA with a little more than double the required ram space to make things a bit easier.First we divide our ram into pieces:ri1: 300 kb of raw input frame buffer 1ri2: 300 kb or raw input frame buffer 2ro1: 75 kb for our output frame buffer 1ro2: 75 kb for our output frame buffer 2sh0: 300 kb of raw input frame buffer for shutter imagesWe use three general purpose io pins on our fpga - one to sync on the clock and two for the two data lines which come out of the sensor.We get our data from the sensor in words, which are grouped into lines, which are again grouped into half frames.We need to load each word into a little buffer made of flip-flops. When a buffer is full, we write it out to ram and fill a second buffer while the first one writing out. We always use one word bufer to fill it with ad data while we push the others contents to ram. This allows us for pushing the data out into ram continuously and letting it sit there for a bit.When ri1 is full after the sensor transmitted a frame and we pused it into our ram buffer pixel by pixel, we continue to fill ri2 while we work with the data in ri1. When we are finished with working with the data in ri1 (translating it into a output frame), we can start to overwrite it with new data, while now working with ri2 and so on...fill ri1work with ri1 and fill ri2work with ri2 and fill ri1 (overwerwrite ri1)work with ri1 and fill ri2 again (overwrite)....We have always got one input ram to work with (translate) and one to write into.Now lets see how we work with data:Our goal is to produce a useful output image for vga which has some sort of intensity information for each pixel. We said we use 256 levels of intensity for the output (colors or just whatever you want).Lets use the same technique as with the raw input buffer rams.we alwas fill one output frame buffer with data from one input frame buffer (by translating pixel by pixel). The other output frame buffer is being red by our VGA code at the same time (for screen display or whatever) and the other input buffer is being filled with raw data from the sensor a the same time. But we dont care about this until we are finished with translating the frame and have to switch buffers.Read from ri1 (while our raw input parser writes into ri2) -> translate -> write into ro1 (while our output core shows pixels in ro2 to the screen)Read from ri2 (while our raw input parser writes into ri1) -> translate -> write into ro2 (while our output core shows pixels in ro1 to the screen)and so on...We have a continuous flow of data through our machine.Now lets look at our translation:Each pixel in the current read-scheduled input buffer (the one which is not being overwritten with sensor data right now) has an according pixel in our write scheduled output buffer (the one which is not being red out to the screen by our VGA core right now).Of course we could just scale down our 16 bit value to 8 bit and display it. But this would not result in a good image because our eyes cant see this fine kinds of gradients and our displays probably cant display them.The information in an average input pixel contains some noise (from surrounding temperature,...) which is completely meaningless, then some valuable data which tells us important stuff about the objects we are looking at and then some range which never gets triggered, because we dont have a hot enough objects in the scene. We need to find this narrow band of meaningful variation in the values of your images.So our 16 bit values of decimal meanings between 0 and 65k each contain information of differnt kinds:Fact: value is >= 65k - never triggered, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 60k - never triggered, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 55k - never triggered, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 50k - never triggered, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 45k - never triggered, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 40k - valuable infoFact: value is >= 35k - valuable infoFact: value is >= 30k - valuable infoFact: value is >= 25k - valuable infoFact: value is >= 20k - almost certainly due to noise, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 15k - almost certainly due to noise, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 10k - almost certainly due to noise, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 5k - almost certainly due to noise, tells us nothingFact: value is >= 0 - almost certainly due to noise, tells us nothingLets find out what the range carrying our valuable info is (in this case the variation of the values between 25k and 40k, since almost all pixels are bigger than 20k, and smaller than 45k. The fact that they are bigger than 25k and smaller than 45k is predicatable and thus carries no information). We need to find the low and high treasholds of valuable information for each frame or pixel.The upper treshhold is no problem: We just reserve some flip flops for values of some statistics work in the fpga and look at the data to find out, what is the maximum of the last few frames for most of the pixels. This kinds of calculations are wehre fpgas get into their really strong side, so no problem for us.Finding the noise is no problem too: We just take a reference picture while our shutter is in front of the sensor and wirte it into sh0, since the variation in noise is big from pixel to pixel. Maybe a general treshold for a whole frame would be sufficient too, but i am not sure about this and ram is so cehap, that we can afford it without a problem.The rest is simple. We pull a pixel from our input buffer and subtract the noise which we know from sh0.Then we adjust our scaling from 65k to 256 by using our upper treshold and scale.This will give us a good image. Not an awesomely perfect image, but a good one and 60Hz and 320x240.We can add stuff like a thermister for absolute readings and more stuff, if we want of course.The question is now, how much FLIR charges for a replacement sensor assembly and lens. An FPGA board for easy use is probably ceaper than 100 USD and when we have the code once, we can upload it to Github and share :-) ?Of course you can also just use half the ram and not my approach of always saving one part of it for writing and one for reading, but the cool thing is, that this design will later be easily upgradable for a shutter wheel that constantly calibrates the sensor instead of an intruding calibration phase which stopps your image. The price of using a shutter wheel will probably be dropping the usable frame rate from 60 to 30 hertz... But yeah, still better than stopping the picutre for more than a second! Plus: You can easily add the visible light enhancements if you start out with a design which simplifies timing and racing conditions at the price of ram.So: Sorry for the wall of text and maybe partially difficult to understand post... Just wanted to share some thoughts - who knows, maybe this helps someone to get a few ideas?Any thoughts?Any obvious missassumptions on my side?Has anyone here ever bought replacement parts from FLIR?Maybe I should give them a call and ask for replacement sensors?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 10:20:18 pm
content: I highly doubt they would sell sensors other than in large qtys to OEMs. And they would probably require an export license to ship out of the US.As the sensor runs at the same framerate as an LCD, you probably don't need to double-buffer anything as the LCD frame sync can be the same as the input rate.You could delay the LCD horizontal sync to cover processing delays if necessary.The minimum you would need is just over 1mbit for the flat-field compensation, unless you got clever and just stored deltas from a global avarage value, which could reduce the bit depth needed - I would imagine flat-field variation is a fairly small proportion of the 14 bit range.And also a line buffer, as the lines come in bursts that last half a line time ( the data comes in a burst of half a line duration - this is so the same format can accommodate 640 pixels wide).As everything is synced and the fill speed is faster than the speed emptying to the LCD, you shouldn't need to double-buffer it.The smallest Spartan 6 to do it in internal RAM would be would be the X45, which is expensive and BGA only, however as data rate isn't too high, a smaller FPGA with external SRAM or SDR SDRAM would probably be much cheaper.It will be interesting to see what the raw uncorrected display looks like.You may need some need some filtering - simplest maybe an IIR filter, which needs a second full-frame buffer.I suspect they downsample from the 60fps to reduce noise due to low output from a small lens - their 60fp imagers use a larger lens.I also wonder if you could use a fast ARM that has a camera interface and DSP core and do it in software, with some carefully crafted assembler and a small CPLD or FPGA to do some preformatting.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 10:26:50 am
content: Not wanting to place a damper on this superb investigation into the E4........ I do have a small concern that FLIR may decide 'enough is enough' and contat Mike via their legal team to suggest he stop publicly reverse engineering their IPR liable product. There may be a very good reason why we do not see such tear downs of FLIR equipment on the internet. One is that few people want to rip apart a very expensive piece of equipment, and the other may be the fear of action under US DoD regulations, ITAR etc. I fall into the later category, as I value my job !Mike, I hope you continue with your excellent work on the E4 operating princiles and high level design. I feel sure you are already aware of the potential interest that may be taken in you activities by the FLIR legal bods.Take care.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 10:33:58 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 16, 2013, 10:26:50 amI doubt Flir could do anything, Mike isnt in the USA

author: CzokNorris
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 10:38:43 am
content: Ok, the double frame buffer was a stupid idea... Waaay to complicated.It seems, that they have lifted some of the regulations for export of sensors most countries in Europe, Australia and to Canada...This is rather interesting:http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=51948They even provide some basic specs and pinouts...

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 10:45:08 am
content: ITAR is international and the UK has signed up to the Wassenaar arranagement. UK authorites may act on an offiial complaint.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassenaar_ArrangementBreach of IPR is also an international law knowing no boundaries between the USA and UK.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 10:46:02 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 16, 2013, 10:33:58 amYou are forgetting this ... "When US gov says jump, UK gov will ask how high ?"

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 11:40:21 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 16, 2013, 10:33:58 amAlso don't forget Mike hasalready torn down (and repaired!)a 320x240@60Hz one from FLIR before,and another one. (Does this mean you havethreethermal imaging cameras now?!)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 11:44:43 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on October 16, 2013, 10:26:50 amFLIR have confirmed they are sending me an E8 for review, after all, it likely costs them no more than the E4But I won't be taking mine apart, not because I fear FLIR or some lawyer bots, but because I fear MurphyIt didn't look trivial to take apart and put back together...

author: tnt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 12:41:12 pm
content: ITAR is about US citizen/companies exporting restricted technologies. AFAIU, They couldn't attack mike ... they could only attack FLIR for not providing adequate restrictions.

author: CzokNorris
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 12:51:07 pm
content: Guys, export restrictions have been lifted on this type of cameras. The ITAR 9 fps rule only applies to 640x480 which is FLIRS "Tau" product line.Refer:http://www.infraredcamerasinc.com/Export_license.htmlDisclaimer: I do not guarantee the credibility of this online sources of course...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 12:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: tnt on October 16, 2013, 12:41:12 pmWithout looking at details, The issue of FLIR selling something which allows access to a high-framerate datastream is potentially a bigger deal that someone pointing it out.I have been in email correspondence with someone at FLIR subsequent to the review, talking about some of the things I raised (and was complemented on my efforts with the FireFLIR). I don't know if he's aware of the teardown yet, and I've not heard anything since (wasn't particularly expecting to) - I'm sure they will be in touch of they have any concerns. Meanwhile I'll keep a lookout for Black Helicopters.The datastream format is actually documented in the Tau spec documents available on the FLIR website.Incidentally the device is labelled as designed in Sweden and manufactured in Estonia.

author: CzokNorris
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 01:06:36 pm
content: Rant time:Why are americans so B*tchy about their export regulations anyway??If someone here in Germany wants to build a weapon, they can simply buy a thermocamera from a german supplier.. For example Jenopick GMBH has got ones with 3.1 Megapixels in thermal resolution and 30 fps. Absolutely no problem - you can say "Jallh, Jallh" and look like a terrorist and someone will be happy to sell a high rated thermocam to you as long as you have a few thousand Euros handy... Its absolutely ridiculous and funny to the point where it isn't funny any more.Its freaking consumer electronics! Even in Nord korea it wont be a problem for them to get their hands on the few cams they might need to "build a weapon?!?". There are millions of this things around and you can buy them everywhere!! Microbolometers are not rocket science!

author: CzokNorris
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 01:29:19 pm
content: Aurora:Thats because its not much more expensive to build a larger quantity of a semiconductor product once you have the production line. The really costy stuff are the light masks and the testing gear.Thats why I am pretty sure, that it would be way more expensive to have four or even two production lines of microbolometers instead of just one. And dont forget, that your firmware will be more heterogenic too - a big problem for a company which uses Windowsin this kind of products.Its clearly a marketing and enterprise market driven awfully hierarchial company.All the high tech Flir has is acquired from Indigo and all they do is provide the packaging...Plus: They may provide software+lens upgrades in the future to turn an E4 into say an E6...Anyway: The sensor is really interesting, because its super compact, has got the AD converters on board and provides pretty direct acces to the data. I am sure you could build a way better and more energy efficient camera in really short time - maybe something like a smartphone accessory similar to the stick on old school cameras that where around back in the days of dumb phones

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 01:31:44 pm
content: Quote from: CzokNorris on October 16, 2013, 12:51:07 pmHard to wade through all the regs but I did come across a reference to total pixel count of 111,000, which woudl be where the 384x288 (110,592) appears to come from.Flir have a page with export info, but nothing listed on the E serieshttp://www.flir.com/cvs/americas/en/view/?id=55418It appears that regs were changed in 2009 to reduce restrictions on devices below 111,000 pixels below 60fps.This is the most readable doc I could findI've not read through it enough to determine what restrictions, if any, apply to cams in this category

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 02:50:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 16, 2013, 11:44:43 amDo you need to return it in working condition?Will be interesting to compare the internals of the E4 and E8. Possibly just firmware differences.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 02:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 16, 2013, 02:50:17 pmThe only external difference I'd expect is the lens - Dave : make sure you do a close-up - I've not found any good pics online.I can send a pic of the E4 lens if you want to show a comparison

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 03:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 16, 2013, 02:50:17 pmYeah, it would be really really awesome if Dave could get a serial boot log just like Mike did. That way we could compare the messages and possibly infer some things.@Mike:Serial port was just ground + an easily accessible TX pad somewhere?Also, how difficult would you rate taking it apartin retrospect. As in, now that you know where the screws are located.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 04:15:45 pm
content: QuoteAn E8 eeprom dump would be even nicer (as would one from another E4) - Happy to send a FFC cable adapter & I think Dave already has a bus pirate... But I suspect he will chicken out of opening it....Quote from: mrflibble on October 16, 2013, 03:41:50 pmIt's on an unused FFC connector which can be accessed after removing only the first 2 screws. Ditto access to i2C eeprom and (if necessary) RTC+NVRAM. CPU Reset and on/off lines are also there so unhindered access to ee should be no problem.There are some other pins yet to be investigated - my guess would be JTAG.QuoteVery easy - see reassembly at end of teardown vid. Lift off a lightly stuck front trim, then a few screws ( all the same as well) and a couple of clips. Trickiest bit was getting the LCD clip back ( a lot edited out of vid!) but I may have started at the wrong end. Rubber cover at top was also a little fiddly to get back in.I didn't see any evidence of any sort of warranty seal. Just be careful you don't lose the spring from the lens cover - see teardown vid for details.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 06:57:45 pm
content: Mike has a video on how to handle those stickers as well..........

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2013, 07:02:25 pm
content: Do the stickers survive the ordeal?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2013, 04:59:39 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 16, 2013, 06:57:45 pmLink?

author: neggles
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2013, 01:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 17, 2013, 04:59:39 amHe doesn't have that many videos, mate - but it's here

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2013, 06:44:00 pm
content: Got yesterday the E4 (thanks Dave and Mike for your reviews) and here is my first impression. This is my first TIC ever and I am not a pro so take this with a grain of salt. The unit is larger than I expected, a little bit on the bulky side but not a problem. It feels lighter than I would expect from a rugged product at this size which gives the subjective feeling of a 'rugged look' but again, not a problem, I don't expect to abuse it. It feels nice in the hand and all 5 buttons are easily accessible and have good feel. Screen size is just right though not very visible in sunlight. Shutter feels 'plasticky' and does not turn the camera on or off (would be nice, will also act as a reminder to close the shutter when turning the camera off).As Dave mentioned, the lens and the screen are not parallel which makes the aiming confusing. Also, the USB port is not in right angle to the camera surface which is strange when you try in insert the charger plug.As Mike mentioned, some common functionalities requires digging into the menu structure instead of being available with a single click. For me the range lock/unlock is the most common function (when you look around a room, you want to have the same color range) but I found that if you open the lock/unlock function, then with a single click you can switch between the modes, while still see a live IR image (slightly obstructed by the menu). Same goes goes for other top menu controls such as color scheme and image mode, but not for the alignment distance setting which is more painful.The MSX function (visible edges super imposed over IR image) works very good but obviously not in the dark (no flash, not even when you take a picture).Image resolution is good enough for my needs and I would not pay 50% more to go to the E5 model. 9fps is also good enough for me, no complain here. One problem with the image is that is very noisy, you see all the time pixel's intensity jumping up and down, like the noise on old analog TVs. I think this happens because of the automatic ranging, for example, if the scale is 19-35C, this is only a small fraction of the dynamic range of the camera. Since internally they scan at 60fps, they do averaging over few frames (or maybe this is already after averaging).The most annoying thing about this product is the frequent calibration, every 10 seconds or so the image freezes and a 'calibrating' message pops up. It would be nice to have a 'relative' mode where it does not show actual temperatures, just the relative colors. If I scan the room or a product looking for hot spots I don't really care about the absolute temperature.Overall I am very excited with this product and it is definitely a keeper. For example, we have in our home a room that gets very hot in the summer. With considered several solutions but a quick scan with the E4 suggests that the hit comes mostly through the glass door and not through the external walls or the roof so we will look for a solution in that direction (tinting, awning, etc).I also found that looking around the house with the camera reveals interesting information. For example, the UPS in the living room is large and hot, that old transformer that hangs on the garage wall is actually live and hot, that the LEDs lights we install are indeed cool, and that the seal on the no-frost fridge is sometimes cold and sometimes hot (must be some defrost cycle).I also notices that reflection is a general problem with IR imaging. i can see an image of myself on the wall and shiny surfaces looks hotter than they are, but in other cases it is useful to measure the reflected radiation, for example, if the sun hits the floor and is reflected and hits the rest of the room, it is useful to see it directly to solve the root cause.Again, overall I am very happy with it. Will be interesting if it can be upgraded to full resolution.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2013, 06:45:36 pm
content: Quote from: neggles on October 17, 2013, 01:18:43 pmThanks neggles, it is very useful. I presume it sticks back on.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2013, 07:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 19, 2013, 06:44:00 pmYes - that's something I noticed, and could contribute to possible damage - at the very least it makes it a little fiddly

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 04:20:28 am
content: Here are few pictures from the E4, all with the MSX mode.The UPS in the living room. Big and hot, wasting energy even in standby mode. The small heater next to it is the cable modem.Color laser printer in standby. Same story.Cordless phone in the charger. Even this little bugger dissipates heat. I am sure it's wall transformer is just as hot.Trying to estimate the amount of gas left in the BBQ tank. BBQ was not on for days. Turning it on may increase the temperature difference.A car after casual ride on the highway. I expected the brakes to be hot but not the rubber. It's a sunny day and the car is dark but the body stayed relatively cool.A closeup on the wheel. The break housing is hot.The living room ceiling. The insulation in the attic has holes. Not good. This explains why it gets so hot. Need to call an insulation guy. Found one on Yelp with good reviews.The no-frost fridge's door seal. Sometimes it is warm and sometimes not, depending on some cycle. In this picture it is clearly warm.A fat cat enjoying the sun on the sofa.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 05:55:10 am
content: Fridge door seal is warmed by the hot gas from the compressor so it does not freeze to the body. this will be hot whenever the compressor is running. Current fridge designs use the body steel of the unit as the condensing coil and thus do not have a flat plate condenser at the back, but all have had mullion heating piping for decades, or in a commercial unit will have an electric heating unit in the door to warm the seals for that purpose.

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 07:01:27 am
content: There does seem to be a lot of noise in the images. I wonder if it's something that can be improved with a firmware change.

author: neggles
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 07:47:22 am
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on October 20, 2013, 07:01:27 amIt looks to me like most of the noise occurs when the temperature lies below ambient, which could be an explanation.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 08:17:12 am
content: Quote from: ixfd64 on October 20, 2013, 07:01:27 amI was told that on the i series, some noise is deliberately added - not sure way - maybe to reduce banding.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 11:27:57 am
content: I remember reading that one of the Chinese microbolometers has a peltier element behind it for cooling, or possibly temperature stabilisation.

author: Strammer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 09:39:51 am
content: Quote from: neggles on October 10, 2013, 03:13:50 amSorry - not quite true......the ix-series has NOT been discontinued...it is being sold alongside the new Ex-Series.(It has however been removed from the catalog, so it's future is probably "uncertain" at best)

author: Strammer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 09:44:55 am
content: Quote from: azinfrared on October 11, 2013, 05:19:26 pmAgreed - I am level II and there's just NO WAY you'd "learn by yourself"....bad advice there. Training supplied at Level II and above is not just about how the camera works (That tends to end at level 1)....most of it is advanced theory on mathematical equations and the whole physics of heat transference and behavior. I say again - you will NOT pick this up from just "using" a thermal camera.The previous recommendations about what is and what isn't an "entry-level" camera were fair...it's not tool snobbery or title-addiction. They were valid points, but perhaps not well made. I personally would not recommend an i-series to anyone (except very basic users - school kids perhaps). Any decent thermographer will want an E40 or E50 minimum - if only for the ability to focus properly...and it's far more likely that they'll not be using much below a T-series. It may be that the thermographer will have an Ex or an I series as a quick spot checker...but it's not likely to be his/her primary tool.The Ex-series are good little tools....no doubt about that (in terms of value!), but they are not the be-all and end-all and any licensed thermographer (ie insurance-company-approved and trained beyond level 1 will most likely NOT turn up to a job with an Ex-Series or below.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 10:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: Strammer on November 11, 2013, 09:44:55 amOut of interest (physics person here), what cooladvanced theory on mathematical equationsdoes one learn when levelling up to level II or III Thermomancer?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 11:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: Strammer on November 11, 2013, 09:39:51 amI'm sure any "Not discontinued" status is only to allow dealers to clear old i3 stock, as even an unhacked E4 is much better value than the i3.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 12:13:03 am
content: Quote from: Strammer on November 11, 2013, 09:44:55 amI doubt Flir have any intention of targetting "Thermographers" with the Ex range - their advertising seems to mostly be aimed at electrical and building people for routine faultifinding type applications.Perhaps one of the Thermographers here can tell us what sort of things they actually do, compared to what us mere mortals can do with their own TIC?How do they apply this "magic" knowledge, and what is the end result. Just curious.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 01:10:25 am
content: Sounds like a couple of "Flir" people have joined the E4 discussions...

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 06:28:03 am
content: An electrician at Tafe today had a Testo unit, which had adjustable focus.He was looking at switch boards to see if any cabling running hot.Think it might be thisone, since he said it was 10 grand. This is better picture of lesser model.

author: Clint
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 01:48:31 pm
content: I want to be a 'Fourth dan Thermograher' !Is there a reason you are a Level II or III thermographer rather than a Level 2 or 3 ?Level I "This course covers infrared theory, heat transfer concepts, equipment operation and selection, standards compliance, image analysis and report generation."Level II "This course covers advanced infrared theory, equipment calibration, error sources, cross-verification with contact thermometers, advanced equipment operation, use of windows and filters, assigning temperature limits and repair priorities, and quantitative report generation."Level III "This course covers advanced topics related to developing, implementing, and managing a successful infrared inspection program. Topics include: latest applications, hardware & software, current industry standards & specifications, OSHA and NFPA safety standards, marketing and promoting an infrared inspection program, thermography as legal documentation, heat transfer analysis software, current industry certification criteria, and how to develop and implement standards-compliant written practices and procedures."4th Dan "This course covers advanced Magic and Thermography Wizardry"

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 04:45:14 pm
content: Quote from: Clint on November 12, 2013, 01:48:31 pmNinja level - we train you to become one with your environment and become so in-tune with your own senses that you can determine temperature remotely without using any equipment at all

author: Clint
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 04:51:49 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 12, 2013, 04:45:14 pmSo ironic you can't do a Degree in Thermography !

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 06:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: Clint on November 12, 2013, 04:51:49 pmGreat! Another degree is born, complete with definitions for BA, MA and PD.Sent from my iPad usingTapatalk

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2013, 10:39:42 pm
content: Quote from: Clint on November 12, 2013, 04:51:49 pmYes, it is. But you guys are making up for it by giving the newcomer the 3rd degree.

author: KingVidiot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 01:14:57 am
content: Does someone have a site (or know of one) with pictures of people and other animals taken with the E4? I work at a zoo, and I think it would be fascinating to compare images from a human, parrot, bobcat, raccoon, snake, etc.I want to make sure the resolution is good enough to yield a decent image of these subjects. Any help on this would be great. If you have a dog or cat, and you could take a pic of yourself and the animals separately that might be good enough.If this looks good I'm buying one immediately.Thanks!

author: csshih
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 04:40:01 am
content: taken with my old FLIR B40..120x120, though.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 05:34:56 am
content: Quote from: mrflibble on November 11, 2013, 10:01:30 pmI lol'ed at "level III Thermomancer"When one of those knocks on my front door I get a saving throw

author: KingVidiot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 09:39:17 pm
content: Very nice csshih, thanks.Hopefully the MSX of the E4 will make up for the lost resolution.Any others?

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2013, 11:26:42 pm
content: QuoteIf the MSX doesn't, maybe the hack will

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 01:28:53 pm
content: Having only received my unit yesterday I have not had much time to play but the experience so far is good.My comments on it so far:1. Very nice to hold and operate one handed. The 'gun' shape works well.2. Very clear display3. Navigation pad OK but pressing the lower side is not as easy unless you use the very tip of your thumb (IMHO)4. USB socket on top is a disaster ! It is too small and fragile looking for my liking. I have been looking for a more compact connector, possibly, right angle, with a more flexible cable. I hope to avoid passing too much leverage onto the socket mount. FLIR could have done this a lot better with larger and more robust socket. Spare leads are easily available though and I have seen a nice flexible flat cable from China that looks a good option.6. The trigger action to capture images is excellent, but can be a bit laggy between shots....I am impatient I suppose.7. The lack of a tripod mount or optional adapter is already niggling me. I sometimes need the camera operating hands free which can't be done with the E4 as supplied, unless it is propped up on something, and it’s then not very stable. Mike has developed a modification to the battery to incorporate a tripod mount. The battery base is pretty small though, so stability isn't great.8. Image quality is excellent with the MSX running. It really does make images more understandable to the layperson viewing them.9. The soft case (pouch) is, IMHO, a must have accessory. It makes carrying the E4 a breeze. It is very well constructed and the finish is good as well.Notes:My unit came from PASS in the UK. I was provided with a Soft case (pouch) for my E4 free of charge. It may be worth asking your supplier if they will do the same. It is worth having it. The soft case that I was given is in fact the one for the Exx range, so I suspect PASS had a few to spare. The difference between the Exx soft case and the Ex soft case is not that great. Both hold the E4 camera perfectly, but The Exx has some more space in front of the camera face (for when people attach an auxiliary lens to an Exx ?) If you look at pictures of the two cases you will see the Ex case is more 'snub nosed' than the Exx. I intend to fit auxiliary lenses to my Ex so the Exx case better suits my needs.Only one battery is supplied. It is my habit to always buy a spare. They are $50 each in the USA so will likely be GBP50 in the UK ! Battery life is supposed to be very good at 4 hours, so there is no urgent need. The external charger for a spare battery is priced at $125.The FLIR tools software seems OK. I was surprised that it does not include the option to save images (that have been modified) as standard formats such as jpg, TIFF and bmp etc. A major PITA for me. The free FLIR Explorer99 (March2007revision) permits me to modify images from my PM series cameras and save them as BMP. Not optimal but at least usable. I tried to access an E4 image with Explorer99(March2007). No dice, it does not recognise the .jpg file type.I will provide further comment when I have had more time with the unit.Update: Soft case / Pouch datasheets added.I just found the datsheets in the Ex and Exx series pouches.Model: Exx Pt No. T911087 (marked on receipt and inside case (on tab) Fits my Ex like a well made glove.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 04:31:35 pm
content: TRIPOD MOUNT projectTo address the issue of no tripod mount or desk stand, I am looking at the possibility of using one of the better quality Golfing umbrella handle holders. With 50mm capacity they are looking like a distinct possibility. I have also looked a Velcro torch mounts for rifles as they use a nice soft and deformable silicon 'double U' shaped spacers. I will advise if I find a useable solution.I am surprised that such an expensive unit does not have a lanyard or mounting for a wrist strap. It may survive a 2m drop, but what about if you are working up a height and drop it....like up a power pole or similar ?Update:I just bought a golf umbrella mount with an extra large tube designed for 'GustBuster' brand handles. Capacity is 50mm diameter but I think I will need 52mm in one direction so hopeful that it is slightly larger diameter than stated. or can be made oval with heating.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181243627573?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649If it works, I will make bench and a tripod mount versions. The same could be achieve using 50mm water pipe and an end cap, but this is quicker and easier for me.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 04:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on November 14, 2013, 04:31:35 pmmaybe the thinking is that with a TIC, you don't need to go up the pole

author: csshih
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 04:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: KingVidiot on November 13, 2013, 09:39:17 pmI don't have pre-hack pictures, but MSX does definitely help with the low resolution.though it does look funny at times.without MSX

author: KingVidiot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 06:31:30 pm
content: Thanks everyone!I'm ordering my E4 right away.This is a very informative, entertaining, and responsive forum. That's hard to find these days.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 06:59:24 pm
content: FOCUS tool.Another thread dealing with the teardown contains the STL file for a lens focus adjustment tool. The work was done by Taucher, so all credit to him. The tool enables adjustment of the lens for close-up working.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg328518/#msg328518As I do not own a 3D printer, I ordered the 3D print from this UK company:http://uk-3d.com/instant-quote/The cost was GBP3 + GBP4.99 for setup and post. I ordered two of the parts and the cost was GBP10.99 delivered.My thanks to Taucher for doing the hard part for me.UPDATE: I have just received a quote from another UK 3D printing company of GBP3 each + postage. They are going to print one for me asap.www.LuneValley3D.co.ukI shall advise the results of the 3D printing that I have commissioned when the parts arrive, hopefully next week.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2013, 09:19:06 pm
content: Exx Case/PouchPictures of the Exx (yes Exx) case mentioned in my earlier post.Note the added room in front of the my E4's lens. The Ex case is unlikely to have this.

author: csshih
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 01:10:33 am
content: Quote from: KingVidiot on November 14, 2013, 06:31:30 pmdo post whatever cool pictures you get!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 11:09:50 am
content: LENS protection / thermal window materialIn case this information is useful to someone else:A question was asked in another thread regarding thermally transmissive 'window' materials.FLIR disposable lens protectors for thermal cameras use the 12 or 25 micron shrink wrap plastic calledPolyolefin, that is commonly found as the WRAPPER on CD cases.I bought a large roll of the plastic very cheaply. IIRC around GBP5 for 1mx20m.Additional info added:I purchased 25 micron Polyolefin from the following company and it works very well. I just tried a piece in front of my E4 and the camera sees through it fine.Bee Beautiful .....www.beebeautiful.org.ukhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20mtrs-Polyolefin-Shrink-Wrap-Film-25-micron-450mm-/350800488552?pt=UK_Packaging_Materials&hash=item51ad56a868#ht_1387wt_1018

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 12:54:32 pm
content: I just asked a FLIR rep why the E4 does not have a tripod socket ?The answer...... what for it........ "its a handheld device"So there you go. FLIR believe that the E series is ONLY to be used in your hand ,and that no other possibilities exist.Yet the Exx series has such a mount option. Go figure ?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 01:16:01 pm
content: I had a phone call from my local FLIR distributor today. I had downloaded some literature and that automatically invokes a call from your local agent to introduce himself.It was an interesting conversation. He was unaware of any delays in the Ex series supply chain but is checking with FLIR. When I advised him that I had purchased from PASS he said that they buy in bulk, and that is one of the reasons that they can discount. He was impressed with the amount of discount I achieve and the inclussion of the free Exx case/pouch.So, in the UK, it looks like it is worth asking PASS for their best price, and see what they can offer. I achieved 6% discount, what can you get ?Another member managed to get an excellent discount, as his company had a trade account with an agent. It may be worth checking if your employer has trade accounts with any FLIR agents or distributors, as some will alow a staff discount as well.

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 02:11:54 pm
content: QuoteThe Ex-Series and Exx-Series are designed differently to accommodate different markets. Having a tripod mount would be more useful, but then again, so would having the ability to add external lenses and manually focus. The Ex-series was made more cheaply than the Exx-Series, and it was designed to be for quick and simple inspections (turn it on, point it at your target, turn it off again).If you absolutely need a tripod mount, see Mike's video on the matter. He shows how to add one

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 02:23:42 pm
content: Yes, but how many expensive cameras do you know of that do not have a tripod mount, if only for a lanyard fixing ? It is so cheap to incorporate that cost is unlikely a factor. As you say, FLIR designed it for a specific role but I was just surprised that they scrapped the socket.I am already pursuing several options for mounting the camera on a tripod and will advise when I have a decent solution

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2013, 11:16:06 pm
content: I would definitely be interested in a way to fit a decent tripod mountAt work we use the Irisys 4010 with a tripod and it is very easy to tilt the tripod mount 90deg and get the camera to look straight downwards at an RF PCB. To do this with the E4 would need something along the lines of Mike's tripod mount plus an angled interface bracket because the E4 can't stare vertically downwards with a 90deg tilt otherwise.I've managed to go over 24hours without turning on and playing with the E4 so some of the 'new toy' effect is wearing offHowever I suspect my neighbours will be keen to have a free thermal survey around their property so it will see a bit of use again over the weekend

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 01:29:18 am
content: I am aware that some members of the forum are interested in the manufacturing to delivery time line.To help, I attach the details of my consignment as tracked by TNT.09 November 2013 - E4 unit s/n 639065xx Calibrated ( FW 1.19.8 )11 November 2013 PM - E4 shipped from Tallinn, Estonia with TNT EXPRESS service12 November 2013 AM - E4 arrives with PASS in the UK12 November 2013 AM - E4 shipped to me13 November 2013 AM - E4 arrives at my doorstepNot bad ! The Calibration is certainly nice and fresh.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 01:51:39 am
content: G0HZU,I will let you know how I get on with mounting options. For a straight down view you may be better off with a plank of wood with a nice large hole in it for the E4's head to rest in. Then place a suitably sized block under the handle to support it. Crude but effective.The adding of a bracket assembly is not as easy as I had hoped due to the handle shape. Velcro retainers look effective if used with a U channel to hold the handle. It will be interesting to see how effective the Golf Umbrella holder is. Much will depend upon the design and quality of the retainer.I even had the local hardware store guys scratching there heads over the problem today, Its an old fashioned shop with Gentlemen who have gathered much knowledge over the years. Their thoughts... its daft to not fit a tripod thread to a camera, even a thermal cameraThey had some ideas but all would have scuffed the rubber on the handle badly over time.Watch this space.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 12:48:33 pm
content: The utiisation of the Golf Umbrella mount idea may be a bust.The unit arrived this morning. Its a really well made item with an excellent finish. The bad news is that, as I feared, the diameter of the tube is slightly too small for the bulbous section of the E4's handle. The undersize is approx 2mm. The plastic wall of the tube is very thick and may not repond to an attempt to oval it using the application of heat. it looks pretty rigid in its design.If I can't use it as supplied I may try more invasive modification of the tube as it is really niceley constructed. My recent experience with 3D printed shapes is not wonderful so the idea of my making a 3D printed mount is presently on hold until I establish the limits of the 3D printing technology available to me in the UK.More updates on this as an when I have news.Update 29 Nov.No more has been done with the umbrella holder as Georges80 designed a very neat adapter to aid tripod mounting. I had the adapter 3D printed and it is far better than the umbrella holder idea that I had. Take a look at the E4 Useful information thread for more info.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 05:21:15 pm
content: Anyone think of scanning in the handle and printing a tripod holder that way?I have a E30 it is likely a biff rent shape I don't know.Besides I am packing for a move so I can't do it now.Is there anyone else out there willing to try?Sent from my iPad usingTapatalk

author: svendsenstefan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 10:12:10 am
content: Hello everyone,I'm in charge of buying the first IR camera for my company and I think about getting a FLIR E-series camera. I saw the very positive review on youtube, now I hope someone can help me determine if it's the right camera for us.Main requirement:We want to be able to check for overheated electrical components (fuses, terminals, power supplies, I/O modules etc.) in cabinets. We have had some overheating issues in the past, so now we want to check all our electrical compartments for our own sake. We do not need to make any official reports on this.Secondary requirements:We would like to be able to use the camera when trouble shooting faulty PCBs.We would like to be able to use the camera when checking for overheated mechanical components (bearings etc.).In the future we would like to be able to offer our customers an actual thermographical report of the equipment we manufacture.We currently have no IR cameras nor any experience with them. We are all electronics/electrical/mechanical techs/engineers.Since we have no experience with this we would prefer a camera that is easy to operate to decrease the risk of "doing it wrong".With these requirements in mind, would there be any reason not to buy a FLIR E-series camera?Thanks,Stefan

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 10:31:18 am
content: Quote from: svendsenstefan on November 29, 2013, 10:12:10 amE4 is ideal - for close-up work you can either adjust the lens with a special tool (or use a cheap additional lenshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/And of course there are the "Upgrade" paths to high-res and more functionshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 10:50:07 am
content: Stefan,If your company is new to thermal camera usage, the E4 offers simple use combined with good performance in its 80x60 standard resolution. The higher 320x240 resolution is useful when wishing to pull out a little more detail of a specific component/part.I use industrial thermal cameras that cost over $50000 (yes $50000), as well as my new E4. I remain impressed with what FLIR is offering for US$1000. Such an investment is a very good way to introduce staff to the technology and its capabilities. The MSX makes it a winner IMHO. Users can more easily interpret the images and content. Easier than on my industrial cameras !Note that FLIR offer some FREE on line training E-learning courses via their training site. Take a look at their web site for details. This training would be useful to you and your colleagues. FLIR provide some useful thermal theory in the back of the full E4 manual as well, There are some free PDF books you can download from FLIR as well.Some may disagree, but you should contact FLIR in your region and ask for a demo of the E4 by a salesman. They may even loan you a unit (they have loaned units to me in the past) As a new industrial customer they are likely to take an interest in you in the hope of future sales. A demo can be worth a thousand words ! Other models and their advantages may also then be discussed with the salesman. I have found FLIR salesmen to be very professional but they will try to sell you a better model if they can (no surprises) . They are not high pressure sales though.

author: svendsenstefan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 08:10:34 pm
content: Thanks guys, that was great information.The E4 seems very attractive.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 10:27:14 pm
content: FLIR On-line image editor with save to desktop functionI just noticed that FLIR are offering an on-line editor for images that allows you to save edited images to your desktop.My only concern would be whether such a program logs metadata to help FLIR determine whether you have 'improved' your E4 as the product ID would not tally with the resolution. That may just be the paranoid part of my brain working overtime though !Here is the link to it:http://flir.custhelp.com/app/utils/fl_webViewer1

author: unicorn5
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 01, 2013, 05:46:02 am
content: Hi, I asked this on the tear down thread but prob off topic there and nobody answered. I'll paste it here.Don't have a sensible reason for owning something worth so much, just used as a toy. I'll be checking wherre aircon air escapes and that will help with me insulating & replacing areas.And as I have no reason to own one, my other idea was to strap the e4 onto my chest attach it to RC FPV video goggles and walk around in pitch black. Based on the lens angle of view would that be possible or is the field of view too narrow and so not really viable. Not wide angle enough and too shakey? Maybe one of you have tried walking around your house or yard using only the e4 as your vision? I have a 4x 42mm night vision device and that works really well but don't know how to relate it's magnification and angle of view to a flir e4.So... would any of you guys take the chance with ordering one now or just too risky blowing $1200US [australia re-ship] For me a stock standard e4 would be a disaster, it looks way too crap resolution wise. Thanks

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2013, 01:04:26 pm
content: The FLIR E4 will not directly drive virtual reality glasses as it does not have a composite or RGB video output. USB video stream only, via a computer.You could use a VGA virtual reality headset connected to the VGA output of a notebook computer that was connected to the camera. Messy but workable.Lens angle of view is 45 degrees. Work out what your 42mm night-vision sight angle of view is for comparison.45 Degrees is pretty wide angle and plenty good enough for foot navigation. It is not a 'zoomed' view. 9Hz refresh is fine for foot navigation but not really good enough for first person view flying of a radio controlled model. Fire fighters use cameras with this angle of view for searching smoke filled rooms. The refresh rate of their cameras is higher, but this is not a major issue in your case. The IRIS fire camera actually had the thermal camera on the side if the fire fighters helmet to provide the same directional view as the eyes. A chest mounted camera would disorientate you somewhat.Thermal cameras only show a differential in temperature, so whether the camera will enable you to see enough to navigate in the dark is dependant upon the temperature profile of what is around you. Take a look on Youtube for examples of thermal camera use at night for hunting.A thermal camera will show you wildlife that a night vision image intensifier may miss due to natural camouflage. That is why thermal cameras are excellent in warfare and in some cases restricted export items.Night vision using a quality image intensifier, with or without an IR illuminator, can be highly effective depending upon the ambient light level and range required. Military pilots use 'Hot Gen3' star light image intensifiers to fly the aircraft, and thermal cameras to hunt for targets. The two needs are somewhat different.By all means buy yourself a toy to play with if you can afford it, but no one else can make this decision for you or will try to persuade you one way or the other. Do some browsing on youtube to get a feel for what a thermal camera can do for you. The situation with improvements is presently unchanged with no sign of new firmware as of builds of 25 Nov. You will not find a better value thermal camera on the market at this point in time, or likely for some time ahead.Take a look here:http://www.optimumenergy.com/top-five-myths-of-thermal-night-vision/http://www.policemag.com/channel/technology/articles/2013/03/20-things-you-need-to-know-about-night-vision.aspx

author: unicorn5
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 03, 2013, 04:14:54 am
content: Thanks for your reply, very imformative. Is there any chance a hack could be developed for this camera to output video files to usbsticks/usb hard drives or just not possible? I know none of the E series do so i'm guessing not.I just can't help thinking I"ll be the first person to get the mythical 1.20 unhackable firmware and be stuck with something I never wanted, and never able to offload it either as i'm sure the first question a prospective customer will ask is 'what's it's firmware?' . The story of the supply line drying up and 3 week delay is a bit chilling. I think I have to wait for the next full replenishment of stock to suppliers, and discover if new firmware is 1.20 & hope this unfortunate forum member can be assisted by the techs here. THEN BUY & get the even newer hardware upgraded unhackable version

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2013, 11:49:07 am
content: Quote from: unicorn5 on December 03, 2013, 04:14:54 amThe hardware is there but it would probably require some nontrivial software effort. I'm not sure if WinCE has DirectShow but I've used that on desktop Windows for video recording. The internal flash is tiny and I doubt the processor is powerful enough to do realtime compression (maybe MJPEG). I don't remember if the USB controller supports host/OTG mode but once again, this is going to be a lot of software development effort. Much easier to hook it to some cheap Android device supporting OTG and have it record the video instead.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2013, 02:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on November 29, 2013, 10:27:14 pmGiven the google lookenpeepers integration as discussed in the other thread, I think a certain level of paranoia might be justified.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2013, 02:49:41 am
content: The E4 is being shipped with free accessories in the UK at the moment :http://www.pass-thermal.co.uk/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-cameraLooks like you get the following free:1. Spare Battery2. Soft Case3. Car charger4. Strap for case

author: mpmitch2000
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 10, 2013, 12:17:26 pm
content: hiI hear you can hack the Flir i3 to be the same res as the i7.I just done this trick and works. I found out about this on the net. But I hear when you reboot it goes back to normal.Does anyone know how to stop this or if there is a way around this . Can anyone help please? can you help Mike.ThanksMichael

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2013, 12:22:05 pm
content: Q. Is it worth providing product feedback to FLIR or their agents ?A. In my case YES(YMMV)I provided product feedback, both good and bad, to FLIR and their agent in the UK. I wrote a short review of my experiences using the E4 camera, but nothing too involved. I highlighted my disappointment with the use of a micro USB connector, lack of a tripod socket, and the non ergonomic feeling when having to press the 'down' pad button with the tip of my thumb due to the moulding below. i.e. It was not 'suck up to the manufacturer' type feedback. I also reported an issue with FLIR Tools that turned out to be user error....I was using it in a 1024x600 netbook and this is not supported. I have never before received more than verbal thanks from, a manufacturer but.......I have received the following items in thanks for my efforts:1. Soft case of value $402. Spare battery of value $503. External Charger of value $1254. FLIR Tools+ of value $400All these items supplied free to me without any strings attached. In my case it has proven very worthwhile to provide feedback on the E4. If you have used the E4 and wish to send FLIR your review of its performance, you may be surprised at their generosity and that of their agents.

author: pomonabill221
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:21:25 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 21, 2013, 12:22:05 pmI noticed that Flir has a form on their website for contact us.... how did you submit your review? I would like to submit a review also, whether or not they "compensate" me isn't important (but would be nice).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 11:25:34 am
content: Hi,There is a card in the box with a message from Andrew Teich (CEO) FLIR, along with his email address. He invites direct email of comments on the FLIR products. I very much suspect that his PA actually deals with the emails thoughThat is the email address that I sent my comments to.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 11:40:26 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on January 01, 2014, 11:25:34 amIt does get to him - we exchanged a few emails after I sent a link to the review video, and I got a soft case. This was before the teardown vid. but he'd seen my FireFLIR teardown/repair vid.

author: pomonabill221
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 12:16:03 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on December 21, 2013, 12:22:05 pmSorry for the late reply...Thank you for the information! I am going to email him as well... not necessarily for the "gifts" (would be nice though), but I feel that since this is a relatively new product, feedback is probably welcome.Thank You

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 11:12:27 am
content: No worriesI should clarify that the UK Agent (PASS) provided some of the free gifts in thanks for my honest feedback on the product. I think they were genuinely pleased that someone took the time and effort to provide such. I appeared to be the first to do so but I know Mike bought from them as well and he may have provided comment before me ?EDIT: some waffle removed

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 11:48:22 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on January 06, 2014, 11:12:27 amThey did offer me a case but Flir had beaten them to it.

author: wilheldp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 05:49:42 pm
content: Did the extra battery come from FLIR or Pass? I'd like to have an extra battery, and I'd provide honest feedback in exchange for one. The rest of the stuff I could give or take.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 09:35:48 pm
content: Battery and charger came from PASS after I agreed to be 'interviewed' on the E4 product for a forthcoming review.I tried to claim a free battery and charger as part of a USA promotion, but they declined to process the claim. Not unexpected but 'if you don't try you don't get'. You just had to buy an E4 in a certain period of time from an Official FLIR agent to be eligible.....but only applicable in USAMaybe you meet the criteria ?

author: pomonabill221
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 10:44:09 pm
content: Well I sent a somewhat detailed email of what I liked and what I did not like, including the micro usb connector, lack of tripod and/or lanyard, and a couple of other things... we'll see what happens!

author: wilheldp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 10:50:53 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on January 06, 2014, 09:35:48 pmI can't find anything about that promotion. Is it already over? I think Tequipment is an authorized reseller, and I'm in the USA...but I just bought the camera recently.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 11:19:15 pm
content: Here is the offer:http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/view/?id=62227I went for the >$1200 spend Ex complete kit as my receipted payment in the UK was GBP900.I suspect you paid less than $1200 so will miss out on the very nice Ex kit that had many useful bits includedYou could get yourself a nice electronic Borescope though

author: wilheldp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 11:24:12 pm
content: Awesome. Thanks for the link, Aurora. You are correct that I don't qualify for the accessory pack. I think I'd rather have the laser distance meter over the borescope (have access to a borescope at work, and limited need for one).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 11:33:43 pm
content: What was your receipted spend ? If you look at the offer, you need to have spent $1200 or more for the Ex kit.

author: wilheldp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 11:36:24 pm
content: It was US$935. I know I don't qualify for the kit, but I'm not going to turn down a free piece of equipment.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2014, 12:04:41 am
content: This evening I replaced the KB Electronic speed controller on my 'new' (to me) Warco 7X12 Mini Lathe. I fitted a new USA made KB controller board that was provided with it by the seller. Out of interest I checked the temperature profile of the KB controller to see what got hot when the lathe was running. I could immediately see that a power resistor used to drop approx. 180VDC to 22VDC was running at 142 Degrees CelsiusIt is designed to operate like that by KB and is deliberately fitted in PCB stand-off tubes to ensure air flow around it. I don't like to see those sorts of temperatures on a PCB though so I will be taking some action to correct matters and increase air flow within the controller housing. I also looked at the external gearbox, motor and head stock bearings to spot any unusual thermal activity. All was well in those areas.The E4 made this such a simple and safe task and gave me immediate sight of a potential long term reliability issue. Highly recommended to anyone who needs a quick and easy view of temperature profiles at a safe working distanceUPDATE:Having slept on the matter, I am now convinced that my E4 has identified a previously undiscovered fault in my lathes speed controller. The resistor that is reaching 142 Degrees Celsius is not rated for such temperatures, so something is very wrong. Most likely an excessive current draw through it. But thats another storyThe lesson here is how useful, and quick, the E4 was in visually identifying areas of thermal stress on the PCB. It has likely saved my new controller board from self destruction in the very near future.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2014, 05:22:43 am
content: If the resistor is a 5W ceramic unit it probably will survive that. I have seen them running at 200C for decades in TV sets, and even Tak had some that needed a special silver loaded solder to solder them in, as they ran at over 300C surface temperature. Only issue at that heat is the board failing, and that the surface of the resistor now is no longer regarded as an insulator. Myself I replace them if possible with a 10W version, did that in a industrial controller when replacing the 1W resistor they had installed there ( reputable EU manufacturer) which had cooked itself off the board. Was fun fitting it in the small case as well, but now it runs barely warm.

author: pomonabill221
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2014, 06:13:01 am
content: Forgot to update about a user review...I sent an email to the address on the card in the box, and received a soft case, sent FedEx standard overnight!!! That must have cost a pretty penny!I appreciate the offer and sent a thank you email... after all it probably didn't cost Flir much, but a thank you just shows the appreciation.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2014, 12:24:57 pm
content: The soft case appears to be a favourite 'Thank You' gift from FLIR. It is useful and well made, so not a bad freebie really. The RRP from FLIR agents is $40. I was given the Exx case (RRP $60) by PASS and later bought a new Ex case for GBP17 from an online supplier. In my case I prefer the Exx case as it provides easy insertion and extraction of the camera due to the extra space at the front of the unit.So it is still worth providing feedback to FLIR.... I am pleased that they are a company that encourages such customer interaction as it will hopefully assist them in improving the product.

author: pomonabill221
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2014, 08:53:37 pm
content: Yes, I did appreciate the case and it is well made!It is a little "smallish" for the E4 though...but still is useful.The feedback I would imagine does help Flir so they can "improve" their product. There are alot of companies that could care less how people feel about their products, and when a company shows their appreciation with a nice "gift", that shows that they care.Andy and I had a couple of nice email exchanges about my "complaints" and he told me why they decided to do the things they did.Nice!