New PC advice for Altium + CAD - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Poe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 08:07:39 pm
content: My existing PC is 11 years old and I'm waiting more than working.Any advice would be great since I don't follow the PC world anymore.The system will be used for Altium, various CAD packages like Solidworks, and typical office stuff like Excel. No gaming.I went to Cyberpower.com and built this thing for $770 (it's only missing monitors)Gaming Chasis: CyberPowerPC X-Sentinel MID-Tower Gaming Case w/USB 3.1, Side Panel Window (Black Color)CPU: Intel® Core™ i5-6500 3.20GHz 6MB Intel Smart Cache LGA1151 (Skylake)CPU / Processor Cooling Fan: Intel Certified CPU Fan & HeatsinkMotherboard: MSI Z170A Gaming Pro ATX w/ Programmable Lighting, USB 3.1, 3 PCIe x16, 4 PCIe x1, 1 SATA Express, 4 SATA3, 1 Ultra M.2RAM / System Memory: 8GB (4GBx2) DDR4/2400MHz Dual Channel Memory (ADATA XPG Z1)Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce GT 720 1GB GDDR3 PCIe x16 (Single Card)Power Supply: 500 Watts - EVGA 80 PLUS Bronze Certified Power SupplySecondary Hard Drive: 500GB Western Digital Caviar Blue SATA-III 6.0Gb/s 7200 RPM HDD (Single Drive)Primary Hard Drive: 120GB Kingston SSDNow V300 Series SATA-III 6.0Gb/s SSD - 450MB/s Read and 450MB/s Write (Single Drive)Optical Drive: LG 14X Internal Blu-ray Burner, BD-RE, 3D Playback DVD+RW Combo Drive (Black Color)Internal Network Card: Onboard Gigabit LAN NetworkKeyboard: AZZA Multimedia USB Gaming KeyboardMouse: AZZA Optical 1600dpi Gaming Mouse with Weight Adjustable CartridgeService: STANDARD WARRANTY: 3-YEAR [3 Year Labor, 1 Year Parts] LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORTWindows 10 homeUnfortunately most upgrades appear relatively small compared to 11 years ago. It kind of feels like a system at half the cost could still get 90% of the performance.So some questions:1. Could I save or better allocate money, considering my use case?2. Any reliability issues with these manufacturers or lack of exotic (liquid) cooling?3. Could anyone recommend sources either to buy the individual parts (Newegg) or buy the entire system like Cyberpower?4. Do you think there's reasonable savings/headaches to be had by building a system myself now-a-days?5. I'm looking at a single 23" or larger monitor for now. Should I focus on 1920x1080 or would 1920x1200 be worth the additional cost?Any help would be appreciated.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 08:22:52 pm
content: Why not 16GB RAM and a 2GB video card? Running one or two virtual machines for special software needs a lot of ram. And a 2 GB video card is the recommendation for a lot of CAD software.

author: Chromatic
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 08:29:53 pm
content: Dear Poe,Moving to a SSD for Altium is a real pleasure. It won't protect you from "catastrophic failure", but it starts the application really faster, and the system is more responsive.With Win 10, Solid works and Office, I would definitely choose a 250GB version. Plus your extra HDD. Check the Samsung 850 Pro, availability and price.And a video card, not the HD4500 of the processor. You are all good with 1GB, maybe a little short for 3D visualisation in Altium, and Solid works but...8GB of RAM is enough for Altium is ok, but I would go for a 16GB for Solidworks.The rest of your configuration seems good.Regards

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 08:33:50 pm
content: My opinions:When was the last time you used a CD? For me it's been two years - you can save a few bucks on the drive.The mouse sounds fancy - too fancy perhaps? Not particularly CAD at all.SSD for program, HDD for bulk -> Good choice.QuoteTry a double monitor setup - it's quite useful for CAD.QuoteI've got an i7, 16GB, 256GB SSD, with a good enough graphics card for around 900 EUR.https://www.alza.sk/hp-prodesk-490-g2-microtower-d2168454.htm(tax will vary). It's a premade device, ready to go, from HP. Couldn't be happier. I do need the extra power for some nasty simulations.QuoteMost of the time you're OK with a 500 EUR machine in my opinion. The only really heavy lifting situations are simulations and really big 3D models as far as you are concerned. If you do not work with such things, you might be OK with a cheaper system (i5, or i3). But DON'T go cheap on RAM and graphics and SSD.Also... wow... 11 years with the same computer? How do you stay sane?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 12:22:31 am
content: I'd get rid of all the 'Gaming' rated hardware because it has crap printed all over it. Since you are not following the 'PC world' I strongly recommend to get a decent 'for business' machine from HP or Dell for CAD work. They are better in many ways: cooling, noise (unless you are at the bottom of the barrel), components better tuned to work together, driver download based on serial number, etc than any PC made from a standard case and PSU. I used to build PCs myself but the last decade I bought 'for business' machines because they just work and keep working. There is also no money to be saved by building a PC by yourself.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 01:37:47 am
content: Quote from: Poe on September 28, 2015, 08:07:39 pm1. Yes you can. For example in the prebuilt you linked. The igpu of the i5 6500 outperforms the GT 720, making the discrete gpu basically useless. Very few (if any) programs can utilize a secondary gpu if it is not in sli/crossfire and it is not the primary display adapter.2. Read reviews.3. Newegg is great. I don't use Amazon because they charge tax in NV.4. Savings are one of the main advantages in building yourself. If you do your research and plan out your parts, your headaches during your actual build will be minimized. Even a three year old can do it5. 1200p is rarer. Unless you specifically need a 16:10 aspect ratio there isn't much of a point to limit your choices. An extra 120 vertical pixels isn't going to give you much more screen real estate.You don't need a monster machine for what you want to run. A quad core skylake should do. A discrete gpu like a gtx 950 may help in some cad programs. If you want you can wait and test if the igpu is good enough before buying the gpu. An SSD is crucial for solidworks, and pretty much everything else if you value time.Quote from: nctnico on September 29, 2015, 12:22:31 amEven after I rendered all your points in the other thread invalid you are still spreading this crap?How can you even comment about the current DIY PC industry if you haven't built your own computer in a decade. The market 10 years ago was nothing compared to present day.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 10:26:11 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on September 29, 2015, 01:37:47 amI choose not to engage in your discussion because you did not render anything invalid. Don't you think I look around before buying a new PC? I have been building & selling & repairing PCs commercially for a long time so I have lots of hands on experience on what works and what doesn't and I have also seen lots of examples of what can go wrong if people put the wrong components together. I was the (expensive) go-to guy if nobody else could fix it or if you needed a PC which just worked. Anyway these potential problems still persist because the crappy hardware and crappy drivers are still out there. Nowadays the easy way is to just buy a readily made 'for business' machine if you want to use a PC for anything serious. One of the great things about Dell machines (HP probably has something similar) is that you can download the right driver for your system based on the serial number. This is alone is major a time saver. No more hunting for drivers on the internet which may or may not be the right version.Note where the topic starter says: 'I don't follow the PC world anymore'. Someone like him choosing a PC from randomly selected components is a recipy for dissaster or at least a big gamble. No offence but I've seen it happen too many times. People going back & forth to the computer shop because their new computer keeps crashing or does other weird stuff. Ofcourse the people in the computer shop lack the knowledge & skills to diagnose the problem (they work in a computer shop!) so they just give it back to the customer with 'problem not found'. If you have such a problem with a 'for business' HP or Dell machine they'll come over and just swap the motherboard or whatever and be done with it. They know it is a hardware problem because the test department has tested the combination of the system's components and drivers thouroughly.If you know what you are doing you can build a good PC by yourself but this takes a lot of experience and it can be a hit & miss in the beginning. This will take a lot of time and saves you no money (especially if you could have spend the time working at the local supermarket). It can be fun but in the end you still end up with a machine which doesn't have the well thought out case and excellent thermal design the 'for business' machines offer. HP and Dell are totally free to place the components on their self designed motherboards and arrange everything in the case they also design from scratch so the airflow (using ducts where necessary) is most optimal. Your self build machine on the other hand will need to consist of parts which have to adhere to some PC casing standard. The wind inside such a case blows in any direction so proper cooling is not guaranteed. No problem for a PC which is on for 3 hours per day but if you need a PC to work reliably for 8 to 10 hours per day straight 365 days per year even when it is very warm you'll start to notice the difference! For example: do you test your self build PCs in a climate chamber and check whether the temperature of the various components are still within safe limits or do accellerated aging tests? You can bet your ass Dell and HP do these tests on their products!@Armxnian: Oh and don't bother to reply. I won't read it. I just let the topic starter decide for himself.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 03:04:45 pm
content: nctnico, I think your reasoning about buying a business PC is good, given the OP's statement about being out of the PC market for years. However, I must warn that not all business PCs are created equal: in my experience I have seen pretty standard cases and inefficient designs when looking at the "bottom of the barrel" business PCs. Therefore, some research is still required.Armxnian also has a point, where "build-our-own" may yield the best bang-for-buck or, sometimes, the highest of the highest performing machines. However, it is an intricate process that will take time and experience, and it comes at a price and sometimes without warranty.If you feel that you can spare the time to do your research, keep in mind that a well-built machine will last for years (and it is fun to pick and choose, IMHO). However, if you have something much more profitable to do (i.e., real work) or researching, choosing and assembling PCs is not fun for you, than by all means to a smaller amount of research and get a good business machine.A few suggestions to the OP, based on my experience and personal preferences:- One or two good quality LCD displays, which are able to survive generation after generation of PCs. Size itself may not matter (I have been using dual 22' monitors for years) and sometimes IPS tends to have better color reproduction - not absolutely necessary for CAD/CAE, but you may see the need.- Comfortable keyboard and mouse. These are your main interactions with the PC, and for someone that had trouble with muscle fatigue I found out that keyboard technology and the size and shape of the mouse matter a lot! If you absolutely love your old keyboard and mouse, keep them. I personally stopped having elbow pain after I got a full mechanical keyboard fromthese guys. I also tend to like a larger mouse - I havethis oneat home andthis other oneat work. I suggest you go to a computer store and see how the different keyboard and mouse models feel in your hand.- Regarding storage, the options are many: if you are building or buying a ready-to-run, check the model of the built-in SSD for reliability and speed (last time I checked Samsung EVO 850 had a good reputation). Also, if you are buying a prebuilt machine, check if it can be expanded to include perhaps two mechanical HDDs for mirroring (or a simple backup). I just lost a bit of data due to failure on a mechanical HDD, therefore this point may be a bit biased by my recent experience...If you plan to assemble a computer yourself, I tend to choose a motherboard first, then go to its manufacturer home page and take a look at compatible memory and CPUs: some have a list of these components that were tested as working. Also, carefully look at CPU and motherboard specs for memory timing and voltage: matching those tends to be a very safe way to avoid trouble. The Memory manufacturer's home page helps a lot as well, since they have lists of memory compatibility with motherboard products.- An advanced graphics card is not terribly necessary to have, but keep in mind it must support multi-monitor setup (if you plan to have one) - more research involved. Of course all this is thrown out of the window if you plan to play games on it.- A case must be carefully chosen and would be best if you can take a look at the different models at a store. I really like the cases that have the power supply at the bottom and shielded from the rest, which leaves the top of the case free to generate and extract its own heat (I havethis oneat home and it has been serving me well).- A power supply is a research on its own. Just keep in mind that most ultra-high-power power supplies cater to the gaming community, therefore you should be fine with a 400~500W reputable power supply - last time I checked brands such as Seasonic, Enermax were reputable and frequently were OEMs for other brands. But, just like all the other components, find a power supply model and research on the internet for evaluations, teardowns and such.All in all, keep in mind that anything you invest has the potential to last for years and years. I have several old (myself built) PCs ranging from a 11yo AMD Athlon 64 to a 7yo Intel E8500 and a 6yo Core i7 920 still running strong without major glitches.

author: thefamilyman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 05:37:30 pm
content: I use a little Intel NUC, i5 with 8gb ram and a SSD.I run Solidworks and Bentley on it without any dramas (albeit I can not do the high quality rendering in Solidworks because the gpu isn't on the approved list.)Also run a VMware virtual machine that runs pretty much like native because of Intel's hardware virtualization.I run two 1920*1200 monitors, one HDMI and one display port and attached the NUC to the back of the monitor using the vesa mount.

author: Poe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 08:14:49 pm
content: Hammy - Surprisingly upgrading to 16GB RAM and 2GB graphics card didn't add too much to the cost. Thanks.Chromatic - Good to know. Thanks.daqq - Unfortunately the mouse/keyboard/DVD are 'free' so I can't reduce the price by excluding them.I love my double monitor at work, but since this is basically coming out of my kid's piggy bank I'll make due with one.nctnico - "Business PCs" look unappealing. Performance is notably worse while more expensive for the same warranty.For comparison... ~$770 on the Dell website:- Mid sized case with what looks like two 60mm fans?- 4th gen Intel i5- Dell motherboard, Q87 chipset, PCI gen ?- 8GB DDR3 1600MHz non-branded RAM- No descrete graphics card- 300W non-branded power supply- 16x non-branded optical drive- 1TB SATAII 7200RPM non-branded HDD- Same 3 year warranty- Windows 10Dell probably makes better quality products than QuanHungLo, but there's no data comparing them to someone like ASUS/Samsung/etc. So the warranty is all that's different...and it's the same. I understand my time is worth something and that's why I don't mind paying someone (a reasonable amount) to build it. Although even in that case, researching components still needs done.Armxnian - The idea was to just connect my single monitor to the GT720. Are you saying the integrated graphics card would be better in this single monitor setup or better if in a dual monitor setup?I looked for benchmark tests, but couldn't find much that translated. You're right about buying it later as/if needed. Using an integrated GPU 11 years ago was crazy talk. Other than for the tax thing, is Amazon good?rsjsouza - Thanks for the great info as well. I didn't know about the voltage thing. Wow people are taking this gaming stuff way to seriously.thefamilyman - NUC? Well that's new. There goes my afternoon.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 09:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: Poe on September 29, 2015, 08:14:49 pmFrom specs on paper that is absolutely true (you are not the first to make that remark). From experience in reality it is absolutely false. In large companies which need hundreds of PCs you'll find A-brand business machines for one reason: they keep working. The buyers in the IT departments already learned that cheaper brands which compete on price like Acer, Asus, etc are all low end consumer crap and the money saved has to be spend many times over to cover down time and inconvenience due to repairs/exchanges.I know Dell is expensive with some of their optional parts so in some cases I just buy a basic Dell machine and upgrade seperately with things like bigger or quieter hard drives, extra memory, etc.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 12:08:34 am
content: I wouldn't bother with nctnico, it's like arguing with a brick wall. Ignores everything you say and just spits back random stuff to justify his purchase and or original point. Childish and annoying. If he posted any of what he's said on a pc forum he would get laughed at by everyone and then banned for being a troll.You should usehttps://pcpartpicker.com/parts/partlist/Gives a list of what parts you need, reviews on said parts, prices, etc...An i5 6600k would be a good buy. If you find you need a GPU, then you can try and find a used quadro/firepro on ebay, since new/high end workstation cards are expensive. Something like a gtx 950 will also do for general 3d acc. but will be slower in the cad programs. I usehttp://hwbot.org/for benchmarks. Just search for some parts, go to the rankings for a benchmark, and scroll through the pages of rankings until you find non or mildly overclocked results and compare them. It is the ultimate tool. Everything besides the cpu and gpu shouldn't drastically affect performance. Just find what you like and read reviews. PCPartpicker will tell you if everything is compatible.https://www.youtube.com/user/LinusTechTips/videosis a great channel for beginners. Spend a couple of hours and familiarize yourself with the current market. You end up wasting money and don't learn anything by buying a prebuilt. Are you going to ship it back every time something goes wrong? With a DIY build, you choose what you want and know everything about your components.Here is something I just made:http://pcpartpicker.com/p/N9MLmGIt's a better system (and higher quality) than what you linked so it's more expensive but a good starting point. Swap in and out components to match your needs and or price range.

author: thefamilyman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 12:56:55 am
content: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/products-overview.htmlI would actually recommend to take a look at an ex-lease busines machine, as mentioned above they are built and designed very well and just work straight out of the box.At work we bought a few ex-lease HP work stations, they were about a year old but had amazing specs for fraction of the cost, and still covered by HPs warranty because their business machines have a 3 year warranty.New business machines are still a viable option too, they are slightly more expensive than if you would buid one yourself from individual parts but they are well designed for exactly what you are wanting from a pc, quite and usually comes with onsite support.I use to also build PCs, last one I build was a dual opteron but it became a nightmare when parts slowly began to fail, then I just stuck with HP and Lenovo, now I use a NUC.If I was going for a gaming machine then no doubt I would build my own, but for an everyday pc or a strong reliable pc I would buy a good model brand name.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 03:07:03 am
content: Quote from: thefamilyman on September 30, 2015, 12:56:55 amThat NUC is an example of a good prebuilt purchase, because it's something you can't really build yourself and save money doing it. Same goes for laptops and offerings from apple. It would be pointless for the average consumer to mimic those designs by themselves.Quote from: thefamilyman on September 30, 2015, 12:56:55 amPrebuilt "business" machines are made from off the shelf components, no brand power supplies, and marked up. There is nothing proprietary about anything in those systems. A 3 year warranty is nothing. Workstation grade components from reputable brands you can buy for yourself have 5-10 or lifetime warranties.I wouldn't trust those crusty looking systems as far as I could throw them. There's about 2000 of them at my school. Cheap components, crap performance, and dust magnets.Quote from: thefamilyman on September 30, 2015, 12:56:55 amFor a high performance and reliable pc a DIY is the only way to go.You buy a prebuilt machine if you have no time to build hundreds or thousands of them, like a business. Otherwise, there is no advantage and no excuse for not building one yourself.

author: thefamilyman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 04:08:15 am
content: I'm just giving suggestions from experience, I'm not here for a flame warm about which is more l33t.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 12:21:57 am
content: For the past decade or so, whenever I've needed a new PC, I've gone into it thinking: I don't want to dick around with picking parts, I'm just going to buy something from Dell or HP. Then I try and find a suitable system from Dell or HP.I quickly get annoyed with trying to make sense of Dell and HPs product line segmentation, and start to suspect I'd spend less time just doing a little research and picking parts. Then I decide to double-down and pick a couple options and see if they'll work for me. Then I get irritated that the available configurations are either overweighted on something I don't need, or come up short somewhere important. Then I end up shopping for parts and putting together my own PC.The only exception is when I bought a $100 refurbished HP Core2 Duo system with Win7 because it was about the same price as a Windows license. Even so, I ended up replacing the fans to cut down on noise.I might do things differently if I were buying for business (my own, or someone else's), because in those situations, paying more for the hardware means being able to pay a little more for guaranteed hardware turn-around times, and the combined extra cost is easier to value against downtime/inconvenience.As for the OP. It sounds like both SolidWorks and Altium benefit most from single-core performance on their own. Extra cores can help in some situations, but not many. Within a given CPU generation, the one with the highest turbo-boost clock speed is probably going to give the best performance. I'd pick whichever i5 or i7 best fits your budget. It looks like for another $150 or so, you can get an i7 that has a 30% higher base clock and ~20% higher turbo clock than the i5 you specced, plus it will have a larger cache, and the option of hyperthreading.The 3D acceleration question looks a little more complicated. Altium uses directX, and so can make good use of gaming class GPUs. SolidWorks, on the other hand, appears to favor "pro" GPUs. In either case, it seems like its a question of good-enough, and what's good-enough will depend on the complexity of your designs and whether various visual effects are necessary.Enough memory is important. 8GB might be enough, 16GB is more likely to be. Don't waste money on faster ram than necessary.I wouldn't buy a spinning disk with less than 2TB capacity these days. At 500GB you are playing more for the metal and assembly than you are for storage. I also wouldn't worry too much about a 7,200 RPM drive, because I'd advise using the thing for backups of an SSD and storing archives and media. Slower drives like the WD Green use less power and generate less heat, which helps with their longevity.As for the SSD, 120GB seems really really small, and probably lacks enough NAND dies to get the best available performance. Look for 256GB or even 512GB. Also, depending on your choice of motherboard, you might be able to use a PCIe SSD, which is the direction things are going for solid-state storage. Not worth paying much/any premium for though.Agree on skipping the optical drive. If you really need one, pull one out of your existing system.A 500W PSU is almost always overkill unless you are running two high-end video cards or a multi CPU-socket (not just multi core) system.If you use this system for paying work, or even if you just plan to use it a lot for hobby use, don't skimp to save a couple hundred bucks, especially if you are going to end up using the thing for over a decade. That doesn't mean paying a premium for high-end stuff, but pretty much nothing I'm suggesting is really taking you out of the sweet spot.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 11:10:47 am
content: I second the suggestion for the Western Digital Green drives. They are very quiet and don't get very warm. I bought a new (higher end) system from Dell in the beginning of this year but I removed the hard drive and replaced it with an SSD (for use) and a WD green hard drive (for backup and temporary storage).

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 12:02:01 pm
content: P505 Pro laptop I7 4720HQ , matte full hd screen samsung 850 pro ssd 965 video chip 32GB ram.3X Dell UM2412 (2 via DP, one via HDMI). Works fine for running matlab, solidworks , vmware and altium at the same time.I also have a main pc with AMD 8 core etc but I only use my laptop now. I find that it is more convenient to have everything on one platform.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 12:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 01, 2015, 12:12:41 pmAnd if you are using really disk intensive applicatios, two SSDs will make a difference, I have three on mine, maybe a bit overkill, but windows+apps on one, sqlserver databases on one, and sourcecode compiling going on the last... there are no delays anymore..

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 03:00:18 pm
content: also have way to much memory and use it as a ramdisk

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2015, 03:33:00 pm
content: What is the use of a ramdisk? A good OS uses the unused memory as a disk cache.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2015, 08:22:42 am
content: I don't think ramdisk is of any use today, better leave the ram available for software, 64bits software today manages to use this pretty efficient.On the ssd theme, the newer M2 drives if there are space, those are supposed to be even faster, can't see any use for slow software trying to manage an ramdisk anymore.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2015, 02:01:32 pm
content: Sure RAM drive is good to have. Any software using temp folders you point to the RAM drive. Graphics editors, video editors, CAD software, etc. Does good job for my Photoshop "scratch" drive as they call it. Very useful.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2015, 12:46:07 am
content: I have my doubts about RAM disks too, especially in a system with an SSD. In general, I'd rather have the OS do a global optimization on RAM usage for application memory vs filesystem cache. I'd rather have applications grab more RAM vs the overhead of going through the OS to use a RAM disk. Old habits die hard for some though, and there is indeed application software that is still stuck in the 1990s.If people want to jump through hoops to try to squeeze a bit more performance out though, who am I to stop them. I've had similarly quixotic quests in recent memory.M.2 Drives aren't necessarily any faster. All M.2 tells you is the basic physical connector. There are multiple card form factors, multiple keyings of the connector, and for any given keying, multiple buses supported, ranging from I2C to USB 2.0 to PCIe 4x. Even among the two best suited for SSDs, PCIe and SATA are both supported. Oh, and being able to successfully insert a card in a given slot doesn't guarantee anything, because, apparently ArsTechnica was able to insert both A and E keyed WiFi modules into a B-keyed slot. They didn't work, but at least nothing got fried. From the point of view of device and system makers, its probably ok thing, but for end-users, M.2 is a complete mess with a high risk of incompatibility or, at least, less than expected performance.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2015, 03:08:22 pm
content: Ok, I was reading about the new Samsung M2 devices (950 pro), which had read/write speed about 4 times higher than the current ssd's, and that article (it's in norwegian.. ) said that the M2 PCIe interface gives more speed.But I don't know more than that, other than I want one.. but my Asus mainboard have an cripled M2 placement, so I cannot use these, only room for an supershort one.. even though it was on the sellingpoint list for that mainboard. (Maximus VII Formula)

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2015, 03:45:29 pm
content: I did try creating a RAMdisk and using it for some of my demanding apps - 0 noticeable difference from normal OS handling, but way too much maintenance and overhead.Don't need a temp folder for Photoshop when you've got enough RAM for it to work out of in the first place, makes little sense taking from that RAM to create a RAMdisk and have it store the same stuff there.CAD software is typically more processing than data. Video editor unless you're dealing with hugely high bitrate files an SSD is enough too, and... if your files are really that high bitrate you'll only be able to fit a few seconds/minutes of it in your RAMdisk in the first place making it pretty useless.I considered the "real" PCI-E M.2s when I built my last PC, but nothing was readily available yet (only the Samsungs scavenged from laptops and sold separately, which were too hard to find or too expensive).Might be better now but too late, just went with 2 normal SATA SSDs in RAID.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2015, 04:47:26 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 03, 2015, 04:39:02 pmMost of what sits in RAM at any given time is already data, so that risk is there at any time you operate a computer. IMO it wouldn't make any significant change to put what you need in RAM for a while while you work on it and then dump it back to disk.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2015, 05:17:56 pm
content: Ram disks are fun to play with, but I haven't found a single real world application that benefits from it. If using an ssd, pretty much everything in terms of load times are going to be bottlenecked by the cpu and latencies.Quote from: neslekkim on October 03, 2015, 03:08:22 pmWhy not get a pci-e add in card?http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167300&cm_re=intel_750-_-20-167-300-_-ProductI have the mini-sas version of the Intel 750 (same drive, just different connector). 2.3GBps reads and 1GBps writes in real world. The 750 has more IOPS. Disadvantage is that it costs a bit more and you get less capacity.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2015, 06:12:55 pm
content: Why would you buy it knowing that it reaches 100c? My 750 stays around 29c. There is a heatsink on the drive itself, and when you attach it to a metal mounting bay, the heatsink becomes even bigger. Plus since most cases have the mounting bays in the front, there is airflow directly on the drive from the front fans. The pci-e version might get hotter since it could be next to a gpu, but there is still airflow and a heatsink. If you're going to make an M.2 drive, you better make sure it doesn't set your house on fire. Seq. reads are not faster than the 750. 750 also has many more IOPS. It looks like the only place you can find an NVME 951 is on ebay, so there's that. Price isn't much more on the 750, which often drops to $350 on Newegg for the 400GB.The 950 Pro is meant for an early October launch, so it should come any day now. Vnand should allow for longer longevity if doing heavy writes. The SM951 is not a good buy anymore. I would recommend the 750 over the competition, including Sata 3 offerings. I was tired of performance drops after a month on evo's and pro's. The 840 was a disaster. Updating the firmware didn't even fix anything. The only disadvantage of the 750 is boot times, but a few seconds shouldn't be a deal breaker.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2015, 12:37:31 am
content: Sata 3 ssds are still a good buy for the price. I didn't go that route because my 840, like many others 840s and ssds, dropped its reads to 250MBps and writes to 125MBps after a few months. I wanted something of higher quality. Although it seems like the 850 doesn't have that problem.The 750 is not a flawless drive. Boot times are slower than Sata 3 ssds, sequential reads and writes for small blocks of data are a bit abysmal, and Intel has a recommended 70GB write per day, which is ludicrous. The IOPS and sequentials of writes are also significantly lower than reads. From those 3 facts it seems the target market was those who consistently access large files, 4k video editors for example.The 950 pro seems to have more durable nand and faster sequential writes, which are two very useful characteristics. We will get more information when it comes out.M.2 is great for notebooks, but I would prefer PCI-E add in or a U.2, as drives with these interfaces tend to be more robust. While the 950 Pro will run cooler than the SM951, throttling due to temperatures can still be a problem in a system with poor airflow.Anyway, you couldn't go wrong with either drives, and I would consider both a replacement for Raid 0 setups. You would want a hardware raid card for a serious setup or configuration, which is an extra cost. You also have a higher risk of data corruption since you are dealing with stripped data. If one drive dies in a 4 unit raid 0 setup, then you have 3/4ths of a file, not very useful. NVME is an added bonus. Disadvantages include less storage space and usage of your cpu's pcie lanes. Performance is however unmatched. You would need 4-5 sata 3 drives' theoretical speed to match the real world speed of one of these pcie ssds.