is this even a calculator ! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 01:51:00 am
content: i lost touch with calculator gear since school days ...but this really open my eyes ...https://edu.casio.com/products/cg/cp2/very expensive too USD199 iirc

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 01:59:31 am
content: It looks like a cell phone with a contact list that has unusual friend's names like geometry and sequence.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 02:02:46 am
content: Looks nicebutare these colorful calculators allowed at schools??? At my high school all graphing calculators were banned, so I had a text-only calculator.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hp's-got-a-new-graphing-calculator/msg231865/#msg231865Maybe professionals use these calculators when working in field??At my university we use Matlab on PC.EDIT: Since September 2009 i have a Casio FX-5800 P and I love it. It runs on one AAA 1,5V cell.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 02:07:55 am
content: http://www.casio-intl.com/asia-mea/en/calc/survey/fxfd10pro/Here is a new model, too.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 02:28:40 am
content: It's about time.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 02:34:18 am
content: Fancy calculators are obsolete. For any fancy calculator you come up with, you can write an app for a phone or tablet that emulates it and runs 100x faster for 1/100th the cost.

author: radiomog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 03:03:42 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 15, 2015, 02:34:18 amas I clicked on this link, I was going to say "go RPN, or go home"...then I proceed to look at the one he linked.pretty cool, maybe there is room for one of these, but as you point out, there are plenty of apps available for 'smart' phones.. probably a better market for the app then a hardware version....but that's me, a guy out in the working world, not at school anymore... so there may be a market for them??

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 03:09:34 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 15, 2015, 02:34:18 amSo much this. I don't want a magic wonder math machine that costs a couple hundred dollars. I already have one, I call it a "computer". I want a pocket device that's very easy to use, very quick to whip out, reasonably cheap, reliable (all my cheap - non-HP - calculators are solar-powered), and until I graduate, satisfies the common exam requirement that I use a non-programmable device.If I have to do anything more complicated, I'll find a computer and save myself the trouble and expense.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 03:13:58 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 15, 2015, 02:34:18 amProblem is, how many people are actually going to take the time to write an app for their phone? And last time I looked, there didn't seem to be an app or even set of apps that provided anything like the features or ease of use of even a fifteen year old graphing calculator. Perhaps that's changed?Anyway, I can see the advantages of a hand-held device with a nice large screen, a proper set of tactile keys, and a solid calculation engine with easy on- or off-device programmability. Add wifi and a good desktop app that can seamlessly move data among the device, Excel, MATLAB, etc, and you'd have something really neat. The question is, is there enough market share to make it worthwhile to bring such a device to market at a reasonable price? Of course if you give up the tactile keypad, you could do all of that on a smartphone--someone just needs to create the software.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 03:27:39 am
content: Don't encourage them, the designers of test equipment to me are using the ubiquity of iPhones and Androids to do the final display /processing and control interface. When in 10yrs time no one will recall what an iPhone 4 looks like, there is going to be a lot of useless stuff.Most high school classes have only one make/model of calculator you are allowed to use.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 05:42:19 am
content: many people don't seem to understand what these calcs are why they are still around.Classes don't want kids to use their phones (if they have one) and run an app that may or may not work this week for whatever technical reason.They don't want kids being distracted by their phone secretly playing Angry Birds.They want something they can write their class plans around and have be them valuable and usable for the next decades.They want something that provides a rich but controlled environment.Why do these exist? The same reason the Tek TBS1000 still exists. Teachers have or can write class plans around a single known platform that know know will still be around in decade.The XKCD comic is funny but also fails to recognise this fact.No one would use this once they leave school, that's not what it's for.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 05:45:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2015, 05:42:19 amI thought the point of the xkcd comic was that they still cost so damned much when they're worth like $5-10 in parts now...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 05:52:32 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on February 15, 2015, 05:45:40 amThe the school's paid $xx for them 5 years ago, why wouldn't they do that again?No need to drop prices as technology improves and Casio and TI know that. Actual calculator hardware has always costs these companies peanuts. But they put massive effort into firmware and apps etc, and that is basically what they are selling.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 06:06:26 am
content: Well of course, they'll sell them for whatever they can. But $100 is a big chunk for a lot of people - not all schools buy them, I had to buy my own.Also it didn't have any better firmware than the ones that were nearly ten years old at the time, and most of us never used any apps on it. It was the same calculator it was before, just with a bit more memory IIRC....To make matters worse, these low-end TI graphing calculatorssuck, so you're paying $100 for a complete turd...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 12:00:59 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on February 15, 2015, 03:13:58 amyes that changed... go to android app store, type "graphing calculator", there are numbers of them free, one from Mathlab with 3d plot paid version. Graph 89 seems to emulate old graph calculator (i havent try yet) and another related Mathway, Mathematics, Algeo Graphing etc etc.now its the time when smartphone is as usefull as computer (except for serious work require extensive typing/gui such as word processor, programming, photoshop). not just app, it can be 3 in 1 too. a camera, handphone and mini computer, all in pocket size bring everywhere anytime 24/7. now its the time to put away ancient mentality of "blaming the tool" (gun is different story which is of no direct usefullnes other than for killing a life), blame should be put on the person who misuse it. let our children bring it to school and educate them on what should or should not be used with them. penalty should be given to the wrongdoer, not the tool. tell them to take care there belongings to avoid dissapearance, tell them, playing Angry Birds, Crush Candy or CoC is ok if you cant do anything else usefull such as when you are in a bus or train or airplane, or to release tension for a moment after heavy study, but its a wastefull thing to do when you are in the house, workplace or school.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 12:29:46 pm
content: Those CAS graphical calculators have a place on my desk. I don't have a symbolic math package on my computer (those are expensive!), so when I need to wrestle with integrals, differentials or just reform an equation when doing it on paper seems like too much a hassle, I turn to the calculator. Used to be mostly the TI-89, but I'm slowly warming up to the HP Prime thanks to its speed and display.As for using calculators on phones, anything bigger than a scientific calculator just doesn't work for me there, because there's not enough screen space. Things become ridiculously small or cramped, or you're constantly showing and hiding panels, or need to type in function names character by character. I much prefer the physical calculator to that.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 06:45:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2015, 05:52:32 amThe schools I went to tried to get parents to pay for them, so only 1 or 2 of the richest kids in the year had the calculator they were told to get. And then the next year they wanted you to get the newest model...Most of the school never got to lay their hands on a graphing calculator, even in the lessons which were basically a sales pitch and demo of them. Always a Casio and always £200+ when bought with a discount through the school.Cynical me, even back then, wondered how much the school got paid to do that.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 07:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 15, 2015, 12:29:46 pmA personal license of Mathematica isn'ttotallyfuck-off expensive, though it sure ain't cheap either ($300 or so); Maple can be had for a bit less. I highly recommend Maxima/wxMaxima, which is free and quite competent.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 07:22:27 pm
content: The standard calculator at the schools around here has always been the TI-30, even back when they had the super cool bubble LED displays. The TI's were also available at a discount price through the school, but you didn't have to have that one. Every scientific calculator was deemed ok as long as it was not programmable.For some reason I got the Casio fx-101 or something very similar, still have it somewhere.I still prefer the real hand helc calculator over software based ones. If there's a proper calculator I'll use that. If not I'm typing calc into Windows.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 07:40:41 pm
content: There's definitely a place for ordinary calculators, especially in the workshop or on the workbench. Though that said, I haven't found a reason to use one in decades.It's the fancy calculators with graphing and symbolic algebra that seem unneeded. Any time I want to do that I am near a computer and it has much better tools for such things.For educational uses, I think they are a luxury. I went through high school before graphing calculators had been invented and we were taught how to do algebra, sketch graphs of functions and solve problems on paper. Even calculators that could do fractions were seen as "cheating".

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 07:50:09 pm
content: I remember the British Thornton slide-rule rep coming to demonstrate their double sided slide rule to us in our maths class when we were about 12 years old. Yeah we were meant to buy one for the future years in school, but only allowed to use them for certain problems. Hand held electronic calculators which became available in the early 70's were banned from the school room except for demonstration purposes and certainly not allowed in exams even if one could afford one.Nowadays for ad hoc calculations I prefer to use a hand held calculator with real buttons rather than any touch screen based offering. I have found that, for me, touchscreens just don't have the required precision and lack appropriate touch feedback.For anything more complex one has spreadsheets, Mathlab amongst many other offerings.Hmm wonder if my Casio fx-8100 still works.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 07:55:18 pm
content: When I was in secondary school/college, the graphing calculators available were slow and rather primitive. I used them, but not for graphing as it would take ages. What I did find very useful is the program I wrote (on a Casio fx-7000GA!) to find prime factors of an integer, using Eratosthenes's method. This made reducing heinous fractions a great deal easier, even when doing all of the algebra by hand.A great limitation of those early graphing calculators, that made them pretty useless for exams, is that they do not show the intercepts of a function precisely. You could spend hours tweaking the graph parameters to get a plot that could be read with enough precision to guess the correct extrema or zeroes.

author: Matje
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 11:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 15, 2015, 02:34:18 amHmm, so you think there are apps out there properly(!) emulating a HP50g or TI-89 that cost single digits?I don't think so. And there are reasons for that - for starters, most app programmers wouldn't even understand what would be required, and those that do would rather buy the existing thing than tackle emulating it. Real maths software is nothing like the typical app.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 11:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: Matje on February 15, 2015, 11:30:00 pmTI-89 and HP48g emulators for Android do exist. They're just not fun to use on a phone.I do agree with what you probably really mean, creating a useful CAS appears to be difficult, much more so than creating a scientific or even graphing calculator. It's not something any programmer can do.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 12:52:37 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 15, 2015, 02:34:18 amAh, you appear to be laboring under the misconception that these calculators are used to calculate.The only calculation they do is how much money is being shoveled from student loans into private hands by lobbying that a specific calculator is *required* for a certain class.Education is a big business.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 01:03:59 am
content: I agree with those who see such a calculator as pointless. I don't think it's the smart phone that makes it pointless, it's Matlab+laptop. Of course you can replace Matlab with any number of other math programs including Excel. Basically the only thing I and most of the people I know (who are doing some complex math stuff) need from a calculator is run the few calculations that aren't worth putting into a program. In that case easy to use is the key thing. I moved from a IT-85 to a $20 Casio (that cost me $4) because the screen was easier to read. I love the equation entry (and hate RPN) setup. I really don't need much more than that. The graphing part was always a bad joke to me. It was bad when computers were too expensive to have in every class room. It's even worse now. If you need to graph it, do it on the computer.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 05:39:22 am
content: anyone know of similar apps for iphone or ipad ? that would be cool. ( not for school, i'm just interested for me)

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 05:52:21 am
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on February 16, 2015, 04:50:27 amIt's the same system, just a question of degree. Names of the guilty have been changed to protect the innocent, I guess.As for 100 hour battery life, that's very useful if you're on the Command Module of Apollo 13.I'm curious as to why you're so angsty about not having a power plug nearby?

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 07:58:35 am
content: looks like MS have a separate advance calculator call mathematics 4https://www.youtube.com/results?q=mathematics+4+microsoft

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 10:42:06 am
content: My high school prescribed the Classpad 300 - was a total turd. I bought a TI89 and had less trouble teaching myself how to use the TI89 than others did trying to follow the prescribed textbook's Classpad examples.I've still got the TI89 some 10 years later and use it almost every dayQuote from: cleaningOut on February 16, 2015, 04:50:27 amI dunno about the current colour calcs, but i'm pretty sure the Classpad 300 was closed at the time i had one and people had ported entire graphical games like Super Mario mere months after release.The only saving grace (if any) was that you could not transfer files/games from calc to calc like you can on a TI8x and you had to jump through several hoops to even download the required PC software to connect with the calc so only geeks could work out how to do it.Classpad 300 was horribly unreliable too. The software had so many bugs which would result in it locking up.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 03:48:12 pm
content: Does anyone actually use those advanced features after school or even in college?Perhaps basic matrix algebra? I was able to avoid buying a graphing calculator for my intro to EE class because my TI-68 could do complex simultaneous equations (ie I could solve AC resistor network problems). The 68 was the first calculator I used with the in line entry of an equation vs RPN or the TI/Casio setup. It really was nice just typing in one line and being able to double check it. As for features and abilities I've never wanted more. The ability to quickly and easily handle complex numbers was great for all the 2D vector stuff I did as an engineer. The down side to the calculator was that the screen was just one line so you had to do a lot of scrolling. The 68 was replaced after 7 years (original battery) when I cracked the screen. The TI-85 replacement had all the ability but wasn't as easy to use. I now use a Casio fx-300ES for most work. It's not as powerful as the TI-68 but it does have a 2 line display which is nice for longer equations. I really wish IT made something like an updated 68. Then again, why would they. Anymore most engineers only need very basic calculators and a PC. That includes me.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 03:56:00 pm
content: Quote from: Robomeds on February 16, 2015, 03:48:12 pmWell, despite not being a fan of these more advanced calculators myself, I must point out that using advanced features like that, and even further, advanced math itself, is more of a choice for most people. I'll happily whip out all sorts of equation-system-solving techniques, derivatives and integrals and partials and Laplace transforms and all that to solve problems that many people would have done in about the same amount of time with a brute-force method or just finding a different way, because I have those tools, I'm used to them, and I like them. I suppose the same can be said for graphing functions on calculators and whatnot, though I personally find them completely useless.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 04:37:54 pm
content: Don't get me wrong, I use the functions but as part of Matlab rather than on a calculator. My thinking is anything that is complex enough to need those functions is something I will put into the computer instead of doing it on a calculator. Since my computer is portable I don't see why I would bother with an overly fancy calculator any more. I guess it's a bit like asking "why would you hand plot a graph when you can do it in Excel?"

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 04:46:13 pm
content: My "fancy" calculator is a HP-67. Still love that thing, hasn't let me down yet!Oh forgot I have the M.E. / E.E. slide pack too.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 05:34:33 pm
content: I'm taking a math class right now that had a recommended calculator of ti83 or 84. My wife still had hers from 13 years ago so I didn't have to buy one.It calculates....

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 10:43:17 pm
content: Well, here's a real life example of where I found my CAS calculator really useful. I was playing with some meteorological data from METAR broadcasts. They give you temperature and dewpoint there, but not humidity, which is what I want to display. But, there's a formula for converting between them:(b and c are constants, b=17.67 and c=243.5°C)I want RH isolated... good luck with that doing it on paper. Or Excel. Or on your phone. But it's easy to whack it into a CAS calculator and have it solve for you:

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 11:08:19 pm
content: I used to be of the Calculators are obsolete camp, but having gone back to uni, I've changed my mind.I have "pocket CAS" on my iPhone and Diverse tools on my PC, but I just get more done on my TI Nspire (or the TI84 that preceded it).I. Like that it's focused, capable, has buttons and a baterry life longer than I can survive without sleep.Not a fan of the Classpad (totally locked system and it's work method is a bit choppy) but Casio's basic scientific models are great.

author: TheEPROM9
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 11:10:25 pm
content: Sod using a phone, can't stand the things, only have one because I drive.There are some really nice vintage ones out there and CASIO make some nice units still one of which got me though my under grad.Plus just about all exams do not allow mobile phones as now more than ever can be used for good old cheating.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 11:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 16, 2015, 10:43:17 pmWell...I can do that in my head without much trouble. Does that count?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 11:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 16, 2015, 11:28:09 pmShow-off.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 12:27:49 am
content: The other thing, they don't want you using your phone during a test because you can google stuff that you should have remembered.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 01:05:54 am
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 16, 2015, 10:43:17 pmThis is exactly the sort of thing I would do with Matlab or Mathematica. Thanks to this thread I'm curious if the MS Mathematics program can do it. It appears that it could but I haven't really messed with it for more than a few minutes. Other than a test when would you need this level of calculation without a computer at hand?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 01:23:22 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on February 16, 2015, 11:31:09 pmIt may seem so, but really doing such simple mental exercises is a way of keeping your brain sharp. If you start relying on machines to do mental exercises your brain will become weak, just the same as if you go by car everywhere instead of walking or cycling your legs will become weak.Neither is it an obtuse or irrelevant thing. Being able to visualize symbols and juggle them around in your mind is related to being able to visualize more abstract concepts and relationships, which improves analytical and problem solving skills. You can look at a circuit schematic and visualize what it should do or even why it doesn't do what it is supposed to do without plodding laboriously through lots of design calculations.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 01:33:29 am
content: Iwaskidding around

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 01:40:47 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on February 17, 2015, 01:33:29 amI know, but I was using your post as a peg to hang a reply on

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 07:39:46 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on February 16, 2015, 07:58:35 amCool!

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 12:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: Robomeds on February 17, 2015, 01:05:54 amOf course I had a computer at hand when doing it, just no symbolic math software for it. A HP Prime is a lot cheaper than any of Maple, Mathematica or Matlab with the syms toolbox. I've since learned that there is Maxima though, maybe I'll give it a try sometime.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 01:32:16 am
content: Well, I just purchased an HP Prime calculator, so I'm going to use it to full extent. Maxlor is right: software is expensive. These calculators now come with USB. It shouldn't be that hard to transfer stuff from and to the calculator. They have memory, spreadsheets, they are programmable. Sure, I cannot do a lot of heavylifting with them, but I surely appreciate a dedicated tool and the readiness of it.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 02:52:06 pm
content: Funny I find it more useful many times to open up Excel when I need to calculate something with more than 2 or 3 parts.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 03:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on February 15, 2015, 03:27:39 amIf they do it with HTML it won't be a problem.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2015, 04:07:28 am
content: Bob Pease “My favorite programming language is solder” and I am sure he meant to add no ASICS. HiHiHTML looks pretty long lasting, so far…….

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2015, 09:11:56 pm
content: HA ! well put VK5RCif numbers is to calculatorthen solder is to soldering irons ! (in an alternative universe ... i would say "is this even a soldering iron?")

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2015, 09:44:11 am
content: New Ti 84 (link to review - use the flag in top left corner to change language):http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=177952#p177952More for students than engineers, but still nice.

author: teddy529
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 05:24:34 pm
content: I doubt these calculators will be allowed in schools. At work?? Not sure if it is that useful to have fancy colorful screens.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 05:32:45 pm
content: Quote from: teddy529 on February 24, 2015, 05:24:34 pmThey are, but due to differences in rules and program, the French version has more capacity than the US version.In any case, it's a far better product for far less cash than the previous generation.Nice, but somewhat limited for non school foolin' around (also know as work).

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 09:43:27 pm
content: That calculator seems like the answer to a question that shouldn't be asked. About the biggest issue I have with my old TI-85 is the relatively low contrast screen. I have a Casio graphing calculator that has much better contrast and thus gets used more even though I actually like the old TI interface better in many ways. The color display seems like a great way to force me to worry about charging a battery twice a week vs changing some AAAs once every 5 years (probably more often if I used it more). My TI-68 went 7 years on its original 2032 cell. The other battery concern of mine is age. My TI-85 is about 20 years old yet batteries are still commonly available. Are replacement batteries going to be around for 20-30 years. The engineers I knew who went through school in the 80s were generally still using the same calculators in the 90s. Today a basic yet pretty nice calculator is $20 or so but still, if I spend $100 on a calculator as I did with my TI-85, I expect it to last for a LONG time. This is not something like my computer where I rather expect upgrades every few years.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2015, 07:17:49 am
content: I agree, colour is overrated, but kids want it... If Ti wanted they could do a monochrome "low power" version.The baterry issue sucks, but I doubt that will be an issue for anyone with a soldering iron.