PCB design price - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sruk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 06:07:47 pm
content: Hi!I ran trough this section of topics and I didn't find any similar topic. If there is one, I apologize, please refer me to it.Story goes something like this. My friend asked me if I could draw a design of a PCB layout for his company. Actually I'm supposed to work on a redesign of an existing board that was poorly designed the first time by someone else.The PCB is a EUROCARD VME 3U (example:http://goo.gl/45X34) with total of 4 signal layers and two power planes (dimensions: 3.937 x 6.299 inches).The card has over 100 SMD elements and contains a power supply section, several MCU's with peripherals and a high speed USB and Ethernet transmission lines.My other, more experienced friend, calculated that it would take me up to 60 hrs to finish this design. The "friend" that offered me a job proposed to pay me a 'per-design' revenue in total of 125 USD, little bit under 100 €.I agreed at first, but now I have some serious dilemmas that I made a mistake accepting that money revenue. I checked out on the ELANCE website and price for a PCB design ranges from 500 USD to as much as 10.000 USD.There is no contract between us and I'm supposed to start my job this Monday. After I finish it there is no certainty that there is some other job or long term business contract for me.My question is, as You could guessed by now:How much money should I ask for this job, and what is the lowest price for this design (per-hour / per-design)?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 06:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: Sruk on March 23, 2013, 06:07:47 pmWait. You agreed to do highly skilled work for $2.08 an hour? Is there a typo here?

author: Sruk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 06:28:55 pm
content: FOR ME!It's not to late to change the deal, I haven't really ever worked for money before because I'm fresh from engineering school (university - master degree).On the other hand, I worked more than enough with PCB's in the last 2 years.Help!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 06:50:51 pm
content: What in God's name would possess you to accept this??I'm not going to suggest a number, still being a student (and not knowing where you live), but a 4x6" four-layer PCB with Ethernet and "several" MCUs is going to be at the upper end of the price range.My suggestion is to look the person in the eye who has so little respect as to even consider paying you $125totalfor such a job and tell him to get fucked.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 07:04:06 pm
content: That's 2 weeks work if you wanna do it right.... provided netlistable schematics are available in machine format. if you need to capture those as well.. slap on another two weeks work.you are looking at a 3k$ job... with schematics it'll be a 5k job...

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 07:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 23, 2013, 06:50:51 pmPlenty of fresh graduates work for nothing so 1/4 the rate you get flipping burgers isn't so bad. The question is how much will doing this work improve your future prospects and have you got anything better to do.They probably paid someone 125 bucks to lay it out the first time - lol.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 07:08:45 pm
content: You'll probably want to be asking for low 4-figures for that.Jesus christ, don't do it for $125.I did a schematic capture and pcb layout for a company I was working for, of similar or perhaps slightly lower complexity than this, and the job (including a couple of prototypes) was in the region of £6,000 cost to the customer.So $2000 is probably not entirely unreasonable to ask for. You just have to decide whether you're prepared to risk losing the work if you go too high. You can always negotiate.

author: Sruk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 07:18:18 pm
content: QuoteMost of their designs were out-sourced so they do have a lack of reliability in their products but they swept their competition with smart management. Based on my case it's obvious the management is good, very good. %-BOn the other hand, my intel confirmed that they are in dispute with the companies they used to work with. In some way they are cornered but have the information of my knowledge in Sch and PCB design.Currently I'm unemployed and they think that is smart to give me peanuts and get the work done. There is no chance that they considered employing me on a longer time scale that I know of.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 07:53:37 pm
content: If you want out just go to the guy and say, with a straight face "I just want to check - you did say $125 an hour didn't you. ..... Oh, sorry, my bad, I misunderstood - well I don't think I can really do it less than $125an hour- it's pretty complicated stuff".Edit: You could use "a day" if you want to keep the possibility of getting the job at better than rip-off rates.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 08:47:37 pm
content: Quote(a) you shouldn't want to work for that sort of company.(b) they're not that smart (or they wouldn't need someone to "fix" the design.)I like grumpydoc's idea. And numbers. $125/day would be at the low end, for an "interesting" project for a "friend" with "additional work" prospects and all equipment/etc provided. $125/hour would be a more typical rate for a professional consultant with their own equipment and a good track record/etc.As a rule of thumb, "per-design" fees should be avoided unless you're doing something like a minor modification to an existing open-source project, when you have other gainful employment. (In other words, a hobby project for "beet money" that you might have done anyway. "Hey Bill, could you spin off a Freeduino board with a switching regulator?") Or unless the fee is substantially large (although that's still problematic. I wrote some SW once in exchange for a computer from the manufacturer of the computer in question, way back when. I suspect it was a good deal for both of us.)You can find a lot of reasonable advice on the net on working as a "consultant." It's ... hard. Approximately, you should be getting paid "typical salary" for your services, PLUS amounts to take into account that you're also doing other jobs (sales, accounting, business side stuff), PLUS taxes, PLUS rental value of any equipment you use, etc...QuoteReally? That's ... sort of pathetic. No summer jobs? No paid research projects? No job interviews that at least gave you an idea of what the going rate for your field is?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 09:04:45 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 23, 2013, 07:04:06 pmAgreed, assuming the 60 hour estimate is about right. It sounds reasonable to me given the description of the board's size and complexity.At $125 you're being insulted and taken for a ride. PCB layout is a skilled job, it takes a lot longer to learn than flipping burgers, and the reponsibility you're taking on is far greater. Skint student or not, you really, really don't have that much spare time that you can expend for so little reward. The job would still be very cheap indeed at 10 times the price.I normally prefer to charge by the hour rather than by the job, though I'm generally pretty good at estimating how long something will take - provided the design is clearly defined upfront and doesn't change. Since it almost always does change during the process, it's prudent to make sure enough time is built in to the quote upfront if you really have to stick to a fixed sum. Take your best estimate and add at least 50%.

author: Sruk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 09:35:11 pm
content: Thx guys, even though You don't know me personally or on any other social level, except this forum, you guys are greater friends than this so called bastard "friend".It's not to late for anything so I have all the momentum I need to turn this chess board around. I could do the job half way through and than put a price on my Shift+Delete key combination over the project files.But I'm totally not that kind of a dirt bag, and if I were I wouldn't get myself in this place in the first time. So I will set up a meeting on behalf of this situation the first second I set my eyes on him.QuoteHere in my country let's see, 125 USD will buy you a 63 liters of gasoline (full tank for many cars), will buy you a Canon Pixma i7250 color inkjet or 14 kilograms of perfect beef meat.QuoteYes I did work on some paid projects (4 or more) while in school and I remember that I got paid about 100 USD for a 100x80 single layer PCB. The thing is that I totally lowered my "business guard" due the fact that this friend was a college of mine for last three years. Not totally the same branch but same University. Also his expertise in the field of the PCB is equal to chance of killing a butterfly with a shotgun from a mile away - sort of speak.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2013, 02:36:28 am
content: It's a two-fold issue... If you are ready fo it, sign up to oDesk. Check out the available jobs.You will find folks in, for example, India to work for an dollar per hour!Of course you can not use that as a genral rule. One problem is the language barrier. You might end up spending a lot of hours to make sure the other side actualy understands what you want. The next issue is when problems arise. Short ways are always to be preferred. There is a hige difference betwwen someone far away, working for a buck an hour, which takes a week or twom or w amonth or two, until he does some changes. Compared to a more local person that does it almost instantly. Consider this: once the job is done, for "him" yuo are expensed. He better spends time on the next 1$/hr job than to fix the bugs he made before for nothing... And if things go south, you have no way to literally kick his&her buttIn any case, anthing below 25 Euors/hr. for production quality stuff is not feasable... You need to pay rent, electricity, water... gas for the car... Food for your cats... and food for you .... Take all these costs, divide it by 30 and you know what to charge for an 8 hour day of work. Anything below gets you kicked out of your rented home, and makes you starve. Everything even means you are jsut getting along, but have no way to get better....Greetings,ChrisEDIT: Meant below 25 Euros/hr instead of 2 Euros/hr as not feasible...

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2013, 06:09:07 am
content: Quote from: westfw on March 23, 2013, 08:47:37 pm+1 for grumpydoc's reasonable fix for the situation. Given your cost of living (based on the gas + beef prices you quoted) the $125 sounds like a blatant ripoff attempt. That alone would make me go "screw you hippies!" in a polite manner. Should you still want to do the work I'd say pick the $125/day route, and better make sure you get paid at least a decent percentage of the sum before you relinquish control over your work.Just to make sure this "friend" doesn't find another way to optimize cost any further by oh I don't know delaying paying for an unspecified amount of time. Because his cat got run over and he needs the money to pay the vet.

author: Sruk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2013, 07:45:04 pm
content: I would like thistopic to be a help for otherswho stumble upon it.Based on your professional experiences till now, how could we create a pricing 'algorithm' or 'calculator' for a PCB design job?Some parameters that are to be included:- number of elements - number of layers - high speed bus count - thermal/power dissipation concerns [TP_dis %]- wireless communication/antennae implementation [W_imp %]- designer's education level - ...You are free to participate as much as You can. Add stuff that You find important or worth to consider.I know that this in the end could not be uniform law for entire planet Earth - as much as We would like it to be. But We can try, and maybe We can set some basic margins for price definition.**at the end there could be some scalar factor based on the Geo-location of the designer etc.

author: embeddedbob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 09:20:54 pm
content: + Density. Im not sure how you would categorize it but if someone wants the moon on a stick, mounted on a 20mm^2 PCB, Its going to be a ball ache.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 09:37:55 pm
content: Another thing that determines how long a board will take to layout is how messed up the schematic is. If you didn't also do the schematic, then you have no idea if whoever did it made connections in any logical places to make the layout flow well. What I'm talking about is connecting digital signals to GPIO of a processor, or multiple op-amps in a package. Stuff that is interchangeable. The tendency while doing the schematic is to just connect that stuff so it makes the schematic look pretty, but that can seriously mess up the routing on the PCB. Make sure you have the ability to reconnect those signals in a more PCB friendly way without effecting the functionality while you are doing the layout.Watch out for schematics that came from people who don't also do layouts.

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 10:46:56 pm
content: The question of how to categorize board complexity sounds interesting. Intuitively, one parameter should be pads/cm^2. A board with a lot of pads in a small space is more difficult. An other parameter should be board speed. Designing for up to 10MHz is less technical than designing for 100Mhz that is less technical than designing for 1Ghz that is less technical than designing for >=10Ghz. Other, probably less important parameters could be the count of pads of components that can't be moved, etc. The complexity of routing a board without taking other things into consideration can probably be seen if you look at the board as a non-directional cyclic graph where every vertex is a pad and every edge is a connection. Then, you can probably define the complexity as the number of crossings of the shortest spanning trees of all the complete subgraphs or something like that. I don't know. I'm thinking off my vodka bottle here!This could be an interesting research question though and more interesting is finding the algorithm for a good solution to the relevant problem of routing this graph. What I'm I saying?Don't talk right now, just read! O0 (nothing to do with the post, just liked his hair)

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 11:29:57 pm
content: Just curious,You do the PCB, what about testing and everything that goes along with a major PCB revision? They are not planning to send it directly into production are they?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 11:43:38 pm
content: Sruk,I don't think you should be too quick to label this guy a "bastard" and be so angry about this.It certainly sounds like he was trying to take advantage of you, but maybe he has no idea how long this work takes. And, on top of that - there is the fact that *you agreed to the deal*. I think you should be careful how you approach this because it's bad form to agree to do something, then become angry at the other party, then refuse to do what you agreed to do. That doesn't mean I think you should do it for $125 - but I think you should consider the reason you accepted in the first place. Was it because you really had no idea how long it would take? Were you too shy to ask for more money? Or were you willing to do it for $125 knowing how much work was involved?I think your best bet is to either tell the guy that you took a look at the project and realized the scope is much larger than you expected and it will take a lot more time than $125 will cover. Or, you could tell a small lie and say you didn't understand the PCB needed redone, and you thought it was just some minor adjustments, or something.There are a lot of people who have no problem using others - this guy sounds like he may be one of them. Personally, I would not offer someone $100 for a 10 carat diamond ring, but some others would do that and think "hey, if they accept then it's their choice and their problem if they are unhappy". You should take away some life experience from this event at a minimum.If this guy has disputes with other suppliers then I would suggest coming up with a price you would be "very" happy with, tell him you got some other work that came along and this is more work than you realized, and tell him you will be unable to do the work unless he can commit to a much higher price.He'll probably be quite upset - especially because his personality is probably the "love to get something for nothing" type, and thinking he just got an amazing deal only to have it disappear is likely to lead to anger.Just figure out your price up front and stick firm to it. In the future, if anyone ever offers you something but you feel pressured to say "yes" to a bad deal, always just tell them you will think about it and get back to them the next day. Then you have time to think it over without the pressure.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2013, 01:05:13 am
content: Quote from: Sruk on March 23, 2013, 06:07:47 pmYour friend is right.QuoteThat friend is exploiting you. That is the worst PCB design deal I've ever heard of. Don't take, that is a pitiful amount of money.QuoteYep, that's what it costs. It's usually done on a hourly rate.Almost no decent board can be done in less than a days work, say 10 hours minimum. So the bottom figure of $500 at a (low) $50/hour is a reasonable lower limit for a simple design.QuoteYou'd be a fool if you did it for a fixed $125.QuoteSee above.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2013, 01:28:45 am
content: Gees the OP posted this almost 2 months ago, bit late to be giving advice. As I said 2 months ago, the OP is a fresh graduate without a job. There are plenty of interns working for nothing on the assumption it will improve their future prospects. That is the only consideration which could and might justify doing PCB layout at less than burger flipping rates.

author: Sruk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2013, 07:44:44 am
content: hi guys, long time no seen!I do have a follow up story based on all of the known facts till now.week after I posted the original message friend and I had a little bit of chitchatwe set new terms on our agreement. also he had some new designs for me to design them on a PCB (far less complicated than the original one).so I figured it out that if I stay, and get paid by the hour than I can work more slowly than I can and still manage to get the fair amount of money.so we both are unfair to each other but what the hex, I'm learning for free, I get my PCB's done and even get some moneyon a weekly scale I earn 200 USD and every day I have a free lunch.is this the best deal ever - NOT - but if I compare current economical situation in my country it is the upper middle class of monthly paychecks.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2013, 01:46:48 pm
content: Collective headslap....We gave this guy advice based on our experience without checking where he's from...He could be from china.... 125$ at 5$ an hour would get you that pcb ...If 200$ a week is upper middle class... Then 125$ for a pcb is 3 days work... 3 days, 8 hours is 24 hours or 5$ an hour.

author: Sruk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2013, 01:53:10 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 16, 2013, 01:46:48 pmfew posts back I wrote total description of my current economical status in the form of typical daily expenses etc.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2013, 06:54:24 pm
content: 25 euro per hour? Maybe in Germany where everything is somehow cheap :-)It really depends on where you live. If you do contract work you should look at what someone makes in a regular job and multiply the hourly rate by at least 2. The problem with taking jobs for a low price is that once you get on your own feet there will be other people working for peanuts keeping you from decent pay. Rule number one is never to compete on price because in the end you'll always lose. Unless you can put a lot of competitors out of business and raise prices afterwards.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2013, 01:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: Sruk on May 16, 2013, 07:44:44 amSorry to be blunt, but it sounds to me like you and the guy who wanted to stiff you on a complicated board design for $125 are perfect for each other.Two people of questionable ethics using each other to the maximum extent they can. I have a feeling he is more experienced and will win this game in the end. Good luck - I think you'll need it.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2013, 02:10:10 pm
content: Without getting into the ins and outs of this particular case, a very common mistake that people make when first becoming self-employed contractors is to under-estimate overhead costs.If you come from an employed background and your used to being paid $X an hour people often cost up jobs at a bit more than $X per hour whilst you really need to cost them up at more like four times $X per hour.If you're doing work on a commercial basis (rather than as a favour for a friend) you've got to account for all the hours it takes to do things that are done by others if you work in a large company such asi) marketing (i.e. spending time finding work and persuading people that you are capable of doing a good job)ii) admin/legal stuff i.e. determining exactly what the job entails, agreeing specifications and some sort of contract and what the position is should requirements change,keeping time sheets,delivering the final product/design and getting it accepted,iii) travel and meeting time and associated costsiv) idle time - i.e. time between contracts when you're looking for the next jobv) holidays/vacationvi) time and money spent on accounts, tax returnsvii) rent, insurance, secretarial services (maybe you need to be in shared offices where there is someone to answer the 'phone though of course you can just use your mobile)perhaps even legal services if you want to get any contracts checked over (insurance might include liability insurance should your design have some major flaw which costs the customer money).If you've not run a small company or been self-employed before it is very easy to under-estimate what it will cost you in time and perhaps other expenses to deal with all the boring stuff.It gets even worse if you start expanding beyond just yourself and perhaps start to employ others even if it is just part time admin help.Of course when you first start out you probably will do things on an ad hoc basis and work from home and not bother too much with contract details etc but it is difficult to put up prices so it is best to charge a sensible rate from the outset.

author: Mengano
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 07:25:22 am
content: Quick question for Sruk:What design software are you planning to use for this potential job?If your able to accept a job for such a low price, then maybe your using some open source software like Kicad or ? Surely, to be able to accept a job at such a low price, you must not have a big software overhead expense to deal with, so just curious. Thanks.