2018 Keysight Scope Month - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 01:44:32 pm
content: As the poll title says, should I be involved in the 2018 Keysight Scope month again this year?They have approached me to be involved in giveaways to EEVblog viewers & Forum members again.But I do recall some backlash to being involved last year? The usual "sellout" thing IIRC.I know I shouldn't care, but just asking...FYI, I get nothing out of it, Keysight get publicity, and viewers get extra chances over and above the usual Keysight website giveaways to win stuff.BTW, it will be shorter this year (not a month), the stakes are bigger, and a wider variety of stuff (think RF).I don't know what they have available for the EEVblog yet.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 01:50:39 pm
content: Consider exclusively for countries that are excluded by Keysight's official one please.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 02:02:40 pm
content: Voting yes, more chance for people to win something to help with their passion/endeavors a good thing.Sell out? Seems to me if that were the case I would see a lot more keysight gear in the videos.Do what you feel is right and good.

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 05:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: imidis on February 01, 2018, 02:02:40 pmAgreed

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 05:31:23 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 01, 2018, 01:50:39 pmChances are they'll be shipped direct by KS so may be subject to the same restrictions

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 05:44:50 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 01, 2018, 01:50:39 pmAgreed! Too many countries are excluded.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 05:53:54 pm
content: How's such giveaway different from legal/tax perspective than done by Keysight?Can'it end up to be much more expensive to winners and would not eevblog need to go through same hurdles as keysight?

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 06:03:28 pm
content: If you are not involved how can you give me a free scope? No-brainer. Also don't forget to get a boat load from R&S for the sake of balance.PSI'm hoping mikeselectricstuff gives me his R&S from last year now he has got a swanky new one.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 08:45:22 pm
content: I voted don't care as I believe my country was excluded last year from the competition. And it's not like The Netherlands or neighboring countries are like not into high-tech.. Guess we have to wait and say what the rules are this year. If it has been unchanged that is a shame, then again maybe some other viewers may win something and benefit from it, so power to them.Oh, and IMHO in this case again, people shouldn't be such a tight arse about one video here and there that's it is not "blogging content". There is always the choice of not watching it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 08:48:54 pm
content: Quote from: hans on February 01, 2018, 08:45:22 pmIt's mot about that, it's particular countries' laws on lotteries etc.

author: hscade
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 09:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: hans on February 01, 2018, 08:45:22 pmTerms and Conditions Keysight Wave 2018:https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2939152&id=2939152Both bundles seem to be huge... to late ... jizzed in my pants

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 12:00:50 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 01, 2018, 08:48:54 pmOr Keysight didn't bother to investigate.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 11:19:10 am
content: Just reading the Ts & CsQuoteCan't quite get my head around "or a DSOX1102G Oscilloscope, or choose not to receive a prize", must be some logic there!QuoteNow that sounds fun!

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 03:57:28 pm
content: I'm also reading the Ts and Cs. Something does not make sense for the RF bundle which would be awesome to get. The bundle states that you get option 211 however looking on that option's webpage option 210 is required for 211 to work. So is this an error or do we just get a working spectrum analyzer and a VNA option we can't do much with? I'd ask on their facebook but I don't want to go on social media at this time.Terms & Conditions:https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2939152&id=2939152Option 211 page:https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2183165-pn-N9918A/vector-network-analyzer-full-2-port-s-parameters?nid=-32348.1028338&cc=US&lc=eng

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 04:03:28 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 01, 2018, 01:50:39 pmIf the exclusions exist for Keysight, they should also apply to any other company or individual, right?

author: AllTheGearNoIdea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 04:04:11 pm
content: Go for it i love free stuff and dont care how i get it. ( Address: Cell Block H - The Scrubs )

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 06:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on February 02, 2018, 11:19:10 amYeah. It's like the page says:If you win, you could choose either:* $100,000+ of oscilloscope stuff* $100,000+ of spectrum analyzer stuff* $3000 worth of scope* $0 worth of nothingReally bizarre, but it's a ton of equipment.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 07:08:10 pm
content: Quote from: technogeeky on February 02, 2018, 06:48:07 pmIt is bizarre, but consider what happens to a USA winner (and there will be USA winners). They have to pay income tax on the winnings of $100k since winnings are taxed like earnings in the USA. They might not have $40k (or so) laying around to pay that! So they may choose the $1000 scope since they can afford the $400 or so in taxes. You might think they'd "find a way to pay" and accept the big prize, but consider that shifting $100k worth of specialized test equipment, when you are just an individual not a dealer, might not be easy or even possible, for better than $0.40 per $1.00 of MSRP. There would be risk of coming out of that owing money after selling the stuff!I'm Canadian, no such laws here, winnings are 100% free and clear.

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:06:10 pm
content: Quote from: macboy on February 02, 2018, 07:08:10 pmWOW no kidding. From the Ts&Cs: "Taxes. All federal, state and/or local income and other taxes and duties, if any, are the winner's sole responsibility."

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:48:45 pm
content: Now all of a sudden, $0 worth of nothing makes sense, doesn't it.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 11:27:58 pm
content: So, in that case, if you win - all you would get is a framed screen shot of your name up on the winner's list. Just make sure that you do the printing and framing yourself ... or you'll get taxed.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 12:01:48 am
content: Quote from: macboy on February 02, 2018, 07:08:10 pmOprah famously gave everyone in the audience a car once, and even with the sales tax and registration paid some people were hit with a gift tax of over $7000, as the cars cost about $28000 each. People could subsequently choose to keep the car and pay the tax, sell the car and pay the tax and keep the difference or forfeit the car. Considering the crew had hand selected people that needed a new car for various reasons, having to then give up a brand new car they needed and could use very well wasn't a great experience, despite ending up with a net profit. Years later a new set of cars was given away, but now there were guesstimates made on what the tax and other fees would be and this was included in the give-away.Note that if the cars were actual gifts from Oprah, the audience wouldn't be on the hook. Instead Oprah didn't pay for the cars, which means it was a promotion and taxes had to be paid by the recipient.

author: chriswebb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 02:33:56 am
content: Quote from: macboy on February 02, 2018, 07:08:10 pmBut surely you are jealous of our superior healthcare's reverse lottery!

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 04:36:14 am
content: Quote from: chriswebb on February 03, 2018, 02:33:56 amTell me about it. Today we are a laughing stock. We need a third party badly. Having binary choices is getting nowheresville.Back on topic here are the numbers I cooked up.N7555A - $5160N9918A-233 - $10114N9918A-211 - $6388N9918A - $24009RF Bundle estimate value:$45,671U1282A - $499E36313A - $170034470A - $2881 or $3828 (configured)33622A - $6689DSOXT3APPBNDL - $2750MSOX3054T - $13166Scope Bundle estimate value:$27,685 or $28,632DSOX1102G - $847Or $0 heheThis is all based on what the T&C described and what each instrument and option's webpage displayed as the price (no configure or optioned out).So if my only income was the RF bundle I'd be looking at a $11417.75 tax bill as per 25% tax bracket. OUCHnot good for the poor student hopeful taking full time courses. Now if you have the wrong income..... OH BOY.Have fun calculating away. Link for tax brackets here:https://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/tax-brackets.aspxEDIT: Forgot to mention those brackets can change for the better or worse depending on income since you'd be filing for 2018 not 2017.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 09:38:40 am
content: There are plenty of ways KS could legitimately reduce the book value of prizes where necessary.Take them out of the box and they become "used".Ship with minimum options and later publish unlock keys for a number of units that happen to include the giveaway units publicly ( so they're not explicitly given to the recipients)And from the recipient's point of view, where is the evidence that they actually received anything?Seems like some engineeering ingenuity is called for..

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 09:45:41 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 03, 2018, 09:38:40 amBig companies tend not to like "cleverness" when it comes to cooking the books, better to avoid an expensive audit and just stick to the laws/rules as intended.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 12:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on February 03, 2018, 09:45:41 amI have to agree. Big companies have alotto lose if they try anything to circumvent laws.They simply cannot afford the risk.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 01:36:35 pm
content: Very big companies push the limits of the tax law all the time. Look at Apple, Google, Amazon etc. It is the middle sized ones who are more careful.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 02:07:37 pm
content: Yeah, once companies are big enough, hardly anyone is ever held accountable for anything.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 02:08:39 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 03, 2018, 12:13:25 pmCompanies take these risks all the time. There's a reason especially large companies pay very little tax percentage wise and that's because they can afford the most clever accountants. Big companies have a lot to gain from even a tenth of a percent. A clever lawyer or accountant is literally worth his weight in gold and then some. If you want to see legal gymnastics, look at the bigger companies. Amazon, Google, Starbucks, Apple, Nike, they all do it and often pay an effective tax of a low single digit percentage. That's not something us normal peasants would get away with.Now, where things go awry is that in this case they would be clever on behalf of the winner of the contest. They don't have much if anything to gain from being clever, so why bother? There's no pay-off. It honestly really surprises me people think that big companies would be the ones to play it the safest.Of course, there is a way around it all. Keysight has done this itself with the power supply give-away. Nobody got taxed there, because it wasn't a lottery but required skilled input from the winner. It's trivial to restructure your give-away in such a way that it qualifies as such, so it surprises me Keysight hasn't decided to do it that way. There's no legal controversy there and they've done it before.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 02:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 03, 2018, 02:08:39 pmI got taxed on that. I was charged 20% VAT as it came into the UK. Probably down to DHL and the fact that I had it delivered to my work address. I'm not complaining about it though. I'm happy to accept that this is my responsibility and I'm just glad that Keysight do these great giveaways.Taxes come in many forms in many countries. Keysight can't be expected to go to huge efforts for our benefit. Complaining about it seems ungrateful and misplaced. All it may accomplish is to convince a competition organiser that it's not with the trouble. Stop moaning, kids! If you can't play nicely we might all get our toys taken away.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 02:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fred27 on February 03, 2018, 02:23:52 pmThat's an import tax or VAT, which is a different tax. You'd have to pay that on your own purchases too. Have you contacted Keysight, however? The discussion in the power supply thread suggests they take care of those taxes for the winners. Very few actually got hit and I think those that did got help from Keysight.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 04:06:47 pm
content: I think Keysight should ask themselves what they are trying to achieve with the contest/giveaway. Are they trying to help electronic engineers progress, which will probably ultimately help them achieve more sales or just benefit people who will immediately flip the item for as much dosh as they can get.If trying to benefit the EE (EEV ! ) community they could use reasonable steps to reduce the perceived value of items. There are bound to be design shows coming up, all they have to do is put a load of kit up on display, it then becomes X-demo, a couple of scratches, etc. It then loses a chunk of its book value and can probably be written off, or sold at a significantly reduced value.I think if I won a unit I would be more happy with the increased measuring capacity I would have, rather than the value of it.Don't forget if you win £100,000 of kit you will have to increase your house insurance to cover it --" Dear Insurance Company, I am a student living in a rented house in multiple occupation and I have £100,000 of brand new test equipment in my room. How much for insurance please ?"Ken

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 05:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: Kilo Tango on February 03, 2018, 04:06:47 pmThey may also like to consider the relative benefits of a few high-value prizes vs. a much larger number of lower ones. Big prizes may make a slightly bigger publicity splash, but in terms of overall goodwill and benefit, more stuf for more people would seem a better approach.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 06:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 03, 2018, 05:06:43 pmYes, I agree totally, spread the goodwill so more engineers benefitKen

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 10:49:43 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 03, 2018, 02:08:39 pmOr you could have gone to the annual reports for Keysight to see they are averaging 10-15% tax basis on their reported income.Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 03, 2018, 02:08:39 pmUsing legal methods to reduce tax liability is the norm for people and companies, but as you say when that is an external cost there is little incentive to spend time and resources to reduce it.Running world wide competitions is difficult, we should be happy there is a special Asia/South Pacific contest to enter which makes a larger change for people who can make use of the equipment to win it.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 11:25:22 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on February 03, 2018, 01:36:35 pmYes, but it isWITHINthe law - and the risks and implications would have been very well researched.

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 09:41:43 am
content: In regards to tax you could legally reduce it by lowering the prices I listed but there will be problems.Look at ebay. That $24,000 USD FieldFox becomes $9,000 something with no options because its used. Overall however, solutions are hard to come by though. What happens to the options? Serial numbers can be tracked as well.Take this ebay listing:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-N9918A-26-5-GHz-FieldFox-HH-Microwave-Analyzer-Agilent/192369837104?epid=805403326&hash=item2cca22c430:g:kGkAAOSws6ZaEq1tYou could legally take this and use it as a prize because its proven to be used via its serial number. However that would trigger an audit regardless. You may come out being truthful in the audit but time and resources will now be spent because of that audit. Therefore overall this will be very difficult to do especially for 16+ winners scattered across the globe. Another thing is you would be denying a potential ebay buyer from purchasing this product.In my opinion, I unfortunately think not much as a whole will happen. Maybe a case by case basis something will work out. For example, proven to be a poor in debt grad student directly applying their won prize in EE or RF engineering. In general however, if you win, you're just gonna have to take it as it is.As for moving this raffle/lottery to "test to impress", I might be on board with that idea.What I love about it is that no reseller can win. I'm absolutely disgusted by some ebay buyers buying at a low price only to jack the price up 5X or 10X after the dust settles. A personal example of one is a couple of AFG3252 I saw being offered for $1000+. I had nearly saved up till some (insert expletive here) bought all three. Many months later, I was still interested and found out thru notifications that they bumped the price up to $5000+ and $10000+. I'm just hoping they are at least renting the units to as many people as possible. I have no problem with reselling but if you're not there to learn or be productive in EE why be that (insert another expletive here) denying resources to the people who need them.On the flip side, the problem I have with this idea is that now this creates a sort of elitist system since hobbists, poor upstarting individuals, or someone whom doesn't fit the prize giver's ultimate view of what an EE is would be potentially denied in favor of an already well off professional EE or someone the prize giver is specifically targeting in order to fullfill their own bias. In short its subjective and I don't like subjective systems. At least raffles do not care for ones wealth or feelings.These may be an oversimplification however and there could be a solution towards these problems. Suggestions?Currently you can still enter the contest and take it as it is. You'll just have to start making really really good friends with someone whom isn't subjected to costly prize laws and ask if you can use their info. lol

author: tox3
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 10:09:14 am
content: Do it Dave!

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 11:04:02 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 01, 2018, 05:31:23 pmDave could ask KS to ship to him, then open it.And then Dave does "something" ... tear it down, or heck, even lick itI don't care, and then declared it as used.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 11:42:09 am
content: As far as I remember that's exactly what happened last year. Dave gave away a used scope he found in the dumpster.Getting back on topic, I'd say go for it, Dave. Considering how much some people expect others (and companies) to do for their own benefit, I can understand why you might be reluctant to do so.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 07:53:14 am
content: I'm not sure this is going down the right path. A common way of avoiding issues with huge taxes is to make it a contest with an element of skill, rather than it just being about pure luck. That changes the category and therefore the taxes too. Games and lotteries based on pure luck generally are the most expensive tax wise.

author: plazma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 08:37:59 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 05, 2018, 07:53:14 amAnd even this varies hugely in different countries.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 08:55:14 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 05, 2018, 08:50:49 amThat's pretty much it.

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2018, 10:06:32 am
content: Is the "wave" thinghttps://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2674667&nid=-32546.0.00&id=2674667&cmpid=zzfindscopemonth.comthe same as "scopemonth" was last year?I do not quite understand...