Atmel is Microchip??? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Harrkev
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 09:43:29 pm
content: Presented without further comment....Exclusive: Microchip is undisclosed Atmel bidder challenging Dialog - sourcehttp://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-microchip-undisclosed-atmel-bidder-201207693.html

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 09:57:36 pm
content: Assuming the story is legit, I wonder what such a purchase would look like. Presumable the memory and other non-MCU parts would get rolled into Microchip's portfolio, but what would they do with the MCU lines? I guess they'd probably keep the Atmel ARM parts, since they don't have any ARM offerings, but would it be worth it to keep producing AVRs, if only to keep existing Atmel customers happy, and if so for how long?

author: FireFlower
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 10:38:41 pm
content: Google definition: A microchip is a term that covers all electronic circuits (like microprocessors) that are printed on chips of silicon and reduced photographically so that the circuits are microscopic. These circuits cover microprocessors, memory chips, display drivers amplifiers and so on."

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 11:02:32 pm
content: *IF* their bid is accepted, Microchip already have some 8051 core devices in their lineup that they got from their SST acquisition, so keeping existing lines going for AVRs would be highly probable. However they seem to be determined to make everyone suffer the suckitude that is MPLAB X, so I would expect a push to support the ex-Atmel parts under that and retire Atmel Studio.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 01:57:44 am
content: Different toolchains, I would think it better for them to keep the Atmel Studio line, the MS VS platform seems more stable than the Netbeans platform they are using for MPLABX, but I guess limits it to Windows users (or emulation).There is the ARM vs MIPS scenario, but they would be foolish to retire the ARM processors.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 02:06:47 am
content: I wonder if by Microchip standards the AVR hobbyist market (Arduino, etc) is even worth purchasing? Some hobbyist might buy like a total of 100 AVRs over his lifetime, but one professional commercial production widget might use hundreds of thousands of PICs over that product life.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 02:08:42 am
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 16, 2015, 01:57:44 amMicrochip CEO Steve Sanghi told me that there is no money in ARM processors and it's a bad business to be in. Whether or not he still thinks that I don't know.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 02:10:08 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on December 16, 2015, 02:06:47 amThe AVR commercial market is just as big as PIC's. And the AVR hobbyist market is just as small and insignificant as PIC's.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 02:18:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2015, 02:10:08 amYep, the tail does not wag the dog in those big corporate mergers and acquisitions. It's all about debt levels and leveraged growth and investment capital availability.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 02:42:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2015, 02:08:42 amIf there is no money in ARM processors, are Microchip getting out of the MCU business? Having any other core doesn't add value, unless its a specialist core, like a C2000 with its CLA addons, which can do things well that current ARM cores do poorly. If ARM MCUs can't make money, the Microchip MIPS based MCUs are also doomed.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 02:45:51 am
content: Were the reasons for Microchip's original bid for Atmel in 2008, and its subsequent demise, ever properly explored in the press? It was canned as the world's economy worsened, but was that the true cause?

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 04:12:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2015, 02:08:42 amSounds like the kind of thing he'll keep saying right up until they unveil their new line of ARM MCUs. I can see it being a bad business for themto get into--what with having to bring up an entire line of ARM parts from scratch and there already being so much competition--but if they buy Atmel they suddenly have an ARM portfolio that spans from M0 to A5 @ 600MHz. I can't see any sense in throwing that away.If anything, I could see maybe trimming the XMega series. With Atmel's newest M0+ parts the XMegas fill an increasingly narrow niche with some really nice peripherals bolted onto the same ol' AVR8 core. And I doubt they have the demand that the lower cost ATMega and ATTiny parts do.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 04:59:27 am
content: Quote from: ajb on December 16, 2015, 04:12:27 amPossibly. Depends upon the financials.Having inspected Atmels books they will know the score on that.QuoteTwo things that are most likely:a) They'll trim anything that doesn't make money.b) There will be much pressure from other Microchip departments to not harm them with competing groups. Whether not that makes financial sense. Doesn't mean they'll win, but there will be a lot of pressure.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 05:04:05 am
content: Well I suppose he would say that since Microchip is a MIPS house. But even if he's correct, ARM seems to rule the embedded applications processor market.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 06:21:04 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on December 16, 2015, 05:04:05 amActually MIPS is/was used a lot by Broadcom but since Broadcom usually only deals with very large volume customers the number of products is limited. I wouldn't be surprised if the MIPS cpus have a double digit market share but ARM definitely has the main stream traction which MIPS lacks.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 06:41:00 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 16, 2015, 06:21:04 amBroadcom and others have been high volume producers of full scale MIPS machines, with MMUs, running full scale operating systems like Linux. A large percentage of WiFi access points and routers, for example, are based on MIPS cores. However, I think Microchip is the only licencee MIPS has so far achieved for their MCU level cores.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 03:52:43 pm
content: From what I can see the Microchip MIPS core is a very cut down version?Nearly everything had a PIC or an AVR in a few years ago, these days, nearly everything has an ARM in it! I can't see a valid argument for there is no money in it, even if you take into account licensing the core, the peripherals and everything they add around the core make the devices much more sellable, not only to professionals, but to hobbyists as well, it won't be long before we see an Arduino with an M0 on it (or is there already one?!)

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 04:00:46 pm
content: One thing's for sure: There will be a great sound of gnashing of teeth from the direction of the AVR/ATmega fanbois and the eternal "Which is better?" flamewar will become even more stupid.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 04:07:41 pm
content: A goodly selection of reasonably powerful ARM SoC devices, with Microchip's track record of keeping silicon in production for as long as the market wants it, would be a strong contender for new designs. At least round these parts

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 05:06:03 pm
content: Let's not fool ourselves by saying Microchip is the only manufacturer who keeps devices available for a long time. Any manufacturer who is in the lower volume industrial business (for example: NXP/Freescale, TI, etc) keep their products active for a long time. For example NXP's earliest ARM device (LPC2106) can still be bought after more than a decade.edit: changed to LPC2106 which was introduced in 2003

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 05:22:20 pm
content: I think what Steve Sanghi is getting at is that he doesn't believe Microchip can compete well with ARM offerings available from TI, NXP, Freescale, etc. What would Microchip's ARM chips offer that the competition doesn't?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 05:25:58 pm
content: MicroMelAtChipAtMicroMelChip

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 08:23:17 pm
content: I'm wondering what such merger would mean from a chip manufacturing point of view.As far as I know Atmel has several fabs but I don't know how they compare feature wise with the microchip fabs. Microchip has a bunch of fabs and as far as I know they're doing pretty good at keeping pics available at distributors.I'm thinking, would they adapt atmel designs (takes time and money for validation i guess) to manufacture them on the lines where microchip makes their mips microcontrollers (to keep their fabs busier, be more efficient, whatever) and sell/kill some of those atmel fabs?

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 09:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on December 16, 2015, 08:23:17 pmIt's been a while but last I recall Atmel got rid of there own fabs several years ago during a down cycle.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 10:56:41 pm
content: Microchip have only ever discontinued a handful of devices over the years as far as I am aware?Of course at present, everybody and their dog are doing ARM, so a different processor core (MIPS) is sometimes a refreshing change, but if Microchip took over Atmel their product line would grow stronger, so I don't think they would discontinue the ARM line, as it just doesn't make sense, they are more feature rich than their PIC32 offering, and can run Linux on some of the higher end Atmel ARM processors.Microchip AVR...Has a ring to itI've never understood the "fanboy" arguments, if you use a particular part whether it is because you were introduced to it by someone/something and continued using it, then you will naturally stick to it, you won't be able to jump to another chip as easily as sticking with the "devil you know", I use both, and I use whichever better suits my application and what other engineers are used to, makes it easier for them to do some debugging rather than all on me!

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 11:27:59 pm
content: Microchip is doing quite well. Go have a look at their quarterly reports. They actually make comfortable net margins for such a large company. There be money in those pics, and bear in mind. Microchip so far has been very good about keeping part numbers around for a long long time. That is actually the main reason we keep using their parts.

author: Harrkev
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 11:41:55 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on December 16, 2015, 09:34:17 pmAtmel still has fabs. I am about 300 feet from one now... O0I actually WORK for Atmel, but I have no special inside information. The financial rumor mill knows more about this than I do.My ownpersonalopinion is that the Dialog merger seems safer for jobs, since there is almost no overlap in the product lines. If we became Microchip there is significant overlap (micros, memories, touch sensors, etc.), so layoffs of one type or another seem almost inevitable. I think that MY job would be OK since I work on a product that Microchip does not have. But, once again, this is myGUESSbased on some common sense. I honestly cannot divulge any company secrets about this since I am as in the dark as everybody else.Still, at the end of the day, as long as I have a job, I don't really care what name shows up at the top of my paycheck. I went through layoff once and don't want to go through another one -- I used to work for Agilent, and got laid off a few months before they announced that they were going to became Keysight.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 10:12:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2015, 02:08:42 amI guess after the catastrophic launch of the PIC32MZ series, they do not have any offering for the upcoming IoT age, but in general, anything for the future. The future, where you need 400Mhz microcontroller with half a megabyte of ram to measure a temperature. That probably changed their mind. They were good with peripherals, PIC32 had more UART SPI and Ehternet before ARM was used everywhere.Actually it would be very interesting to see, where a company actually gets its revenue. I suspect these mergers are happening for entirely different reasons like the main product line.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 06:46:44 pm
content: I sure hope microchip does not by Atmel. I am fast discovering what corporate monopoly means. Take for example TE any company they take over immediately goes down the pan quality of service becomes awful the prices go through the roof and the companies act like they don't give a toss any more. A prime example being Polamco.I will never use a PIC again not after discovering that they actually have a part with a bug in it to the point where you have to ground a certain I/O pin to allow the device to program. I will not stand for such dodgy devices. The AVR is faster than the PIC and yes that could make a difference sometimes. If I need another 10 or 20% grunt why should I have to upgrade my entire microcontroller family and learn a new microcontroller when there is one that would satisfy me from start to finish.

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 07:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 17, 2015, 06:46:44 pmI was about to post the exact same thing. Monopoly isn't good for anyone except the corporation. It hurts the market, the consumers, the necessity to invest in R&D, and so on.Nowadays Microchip and Atmel compete with each other in several fronts, with similar chips (like EEPROM memories, for example). That helps keep the prices controlled. If one of them is taken over by the other, that's one less option in the market, one less reason to keep prices low.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 10:16:09 am
content: Quote from: mariush on December 16, 2015, 08:23:17 pmOne would hope it means Atmel chips won't suffer from terrible stock control and availability. We've had to revisit designs after the 1st round of client deliverables because the supply chain is not up to scratch. At least with Microchip, they have wafers ready to be packaged for every device in their range should they run out of immediate stock.

author: delfinom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 09:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on December 18, 2015, 10:16:09 amBut their own production software at their factory has the magical abilty to crap out on hex files its own compiler generated. Then I am literally the only one capable of somehow telling them their piece of shit is flipping endian on padding bytes. Their support is incompetent.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 01:20:07 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 16, 2015, 05:25:58 pmArizonaMicroMel

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2015, 03:50:06 am
content: Microtel

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2015, 10:13:11 am
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 17, 2015, 07:19:03 pm+1.The only good thing that Microchip could do to Atmel is to kill that terrible Atmel studio.Programming avr's from within MPLABX would be nice.I never understood Atmel's choice to go with microsoft tools only. In a period where more and more companies are startingto support Linux, Atmel decides to go with microsft tools. I guess they have to pay the price for that now.

author: delfinom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 05:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on December 26, 2015, 10:13:11 amWord from a senior Atmel FAE I got is that they wanted to do cross platform but eclipse was giving them huge headaches because contrary to popular belief, its utter shit to debug and develop. Anyway, Atmel isn't that tied down to Visual Studio or Windows. The backend programmer is actually python based. gcc, etc don't require anything windows specific. documentation is generated via doxygen. The majority of Atmel Studio is off the shelf plugins. Atmel just wrote some package management plugins. Microsoft themselves keep Visual Studio patched and working. So eh. They could always switch later on if they ever found an IDE that worked for them.Would be nice if they tried going cross platform again but licensed CLion from Jetbrains because that's a real IDE unlike Eclipse. Netbeans is ok but they seriously need to purge the "folder" is a "file" shit for project settings which makes it annoying to setup new projects. The amount of hardcore rage I get from MPLABX because some coworker committed one of the "local" generated files in the "project settings" folder which then starts fucking me up thanks to the local user based paths!

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: delfinom on January 05, 2016, 05:31:54 pmSo, instead of hiring a capable programmer, they choose not to service the Linux market.After all not too smart I guess.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:16:08 pm
content: most business users will be windows anyway, linux would be great if it was user friendly but I think that is called android and mac os.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 09:19:52 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on January 05, 2016, 07:41:42 pmIt is rare in my experience to see cross platform tools that are not a compromise, particularly when it comes to performance, and for IDEs debugger stability and speed. (In the TE arena, Digilent's Waveforms 2015 is the most obvious exception I can think of which is Qt based I believe).I still much prefer Microchip's old Windows-only MPLAB 8 IDE as it's much faster than the current cross platform Netbeans based MPLAB X when in the edit-compile-program-debug cycle.Supporting multiple OSes is a serious commitment in terms of development and test time, and regression testing a nightmare as you've added yet another dimension to the test matrix. I speak from bitter experience when I was bullied into supporting OSX and Linux on some of my products by a few very vocal souls, but based on the real market share, end user experience and support cost to my company on those platforms, I am not at all sure I will be coerced again as a result I am afraid.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 09:26:27 pm
content: linux is what each user wants to make of it and there are so many flavours that it is just not worth the headache. The compiler is cross platform probably, if someone wants to write their own environment they can do it themselves. In fact i downloaded a generic IDE for C and it had AVR's as a project template, I think that was a cross platform program.My experience of linux after 2 serious attempts at using it as my main OS was that it required a lot of time and work arounds to get even freeware stuff to work and with my lack of linux inside knowledge was just not worth persuing.If the linux comunity want treating like adults and given consideration they need to act like adults in the creation of their software and it's multitude of flavours.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 11:10:26 pm
content: If the merger can help get rid of the microchip teams responsible for its development tools like mplab x etc., I support it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 01:45:48 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 05, 2016, 08:16:08 pmLinux (more specific Debian or Ubuntu) is user friendly but it takes time to get used to and you need to buy compatible (well supported) PC hardware. An earlier poll showed 30% of the people active on this forum use Linux as their primary OS. I wouldn't call that an insignificant amount and hence the need for microcontroller manufacturers to come up with decent development tools for Linux.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 06:52:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 06, 2016, 01:45:48 ambut would 30% of atmel sales be generated by projects developed on these linux machines ? I doubt it. It's not a case of just getting used to it. You can't even use the arduino software on it out of the box. It's hopeless unless you actually love working like that.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 06:53:29 am
content: oh and how many of that 30% have a dual boot with windows and why so they still have windows ?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 07:36:23 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 06, 2016, 01:45:48 amThe stats I use predominently come from how the end user bought the device, ie what OS was used to place the order. It's currently 89% from a Windows OS, although browser usage has varied wildly within that, and IE has lost an awful lot of ground in the five years I've been tracking it.For my products, although they are standards based and run out of the box without needing any drivers or tweaking, by far the best front end software available is currently on Windows. This is much like it's generally accepted that for some creative applications, such as in music, OSX is the OS of choice.While I accept this is a generalisation, when you make a choice with Linux you accept that you're going to have to put some effort in yourself, after all there is no such thing as a free lunch. While I am not saying Windows is a walk in the park (it's not,and neither is OSX) I continually find myself having to dig deeper and deeper with Linux into vast mazes of rabbit holes to fix problems.The version dependencies on several different and separately maintained components are frequently changed by maintainers with little interest in backward compatibility (ie, excessive deprecation and arbitrary functional change). With each distro (and distro version) a given component version might change unexpectedly or be dropped. This makes it exceptionally difficult and time consuming to maintain up to date documentation despite the fact that a hardware product remains stable. I have nowhere near that trouble with Windows I'm afraid, although that aspect has somewhat surprised me as Microsoft hardly have a reputation of developing APIs with a life span not much longer than that of a mayfly!Please keep in mind that I run all three major desktop operating systems on a very regular basis, but I also accept that Windows is my OS of choice probably because I've been developing on it most, since 1988, and DOS since 1986, but Linux only since about 1996. (My first job after college was writing smart terminal emulators for Mac OS System 4 in 1986 at the dawn of desktop publishing, but nobody could seriously afford a Mac at home then).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 07:53:12 am
content: ubuntu and mint are just variations of debian, acess to the system is only via a terminal, the "system settings" is virtually non existent so there is no way of intuitively searching for solutions and solving things, you have to knoew comand line voodoo, if I go through a graphical interface full of settings I can generally understand what I am presented with in windows, in linux the equivalent is a flashing cursor on a text line with no indication of what anything is. So your either a linux expert or your not a linux user. That will not get linux adopted by the masses and I am done with trying, I only have so much time to learn stuff, why should I waste timelearning something that is hard and has little support when it just works on an economical OS, I am no fan of windows but beleive it or not it mostly works out of the box.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 08:35:14 am
content: I recently installed Debian on a separate ReiserFS partition. Unfortunately, it killed my better half (OS X) before wiping itself out as well.Edit: Too soon?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 08:50:08 am
content: You do know ReiserFs is at best a development OS, it might one day get to be stable like EXT3 or EXT4, but it is known to be a little buggy at times. Hass advantages, but has been not exactly improving, and has been mostly replaced by newer filesystems.http://www.linux.org/threads/reiser-file-system-reiser3-and-reiser4.4403/

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 10:28:23 am
content: This thread went of the rails I guess, but it's too late anyway.First of all, Linux is the most used os in the world. Big chance it's running inside your tv, wireless router, cellphone, whatever.Most servers are running Linux. The top 10 supercomputers of the world are running Linux.The desktop is the only place where Linux isn't king.Second, a lot of ee's don't do just hardware, many times they do (embedded) software as well. More and more they use someform of Linux. When they do, doesn't it make sense for them use Linux on their desktop as well?The best environment to develop Linux devicedrivers or (embedded) Linux applications, is ... in a Linux environment.Would you trust a colleague with a task to do (embedded) Linux software development while at the same time he doesn't feelcomfortable with Linux on the desktop?Third, do you really think that companies who have made their tools available on Linux, are crazy?Examples are not only Microchip. What about Xilinx, Altera, Keysight, Zuken, Cadence and Cadsoft.They all offer Linux versions of their design software. They do that for a reason.Fourth, in the past it was difficult to write competitive cross-platform software. Fortunately, those days are gone.The only requirement for this kind of software is: stay away from microsoft tools, solutions and languages.

author: Philfreeze
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 11:38:02 am
content: @Karel there is a Linux version of the Xilinx ISE?Where can I download one?I have to use a VM to run Windows only because there was no Linux Xilinx ISE version (at least on the disk apparently).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:23:28 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2016, 07:53:12 amAbsolute NONSENSE! I can configure everything through the GUI (system settings) of my Debian Linux system. Again: you need to invest time to learn how to use it. Just like you have to learn how to drive a bicycle, drive a car or how to swim. You can't jump in the water if you don't know how to swim. So get a book or a course on how to use Linux first! When I started to use Linux professionally I followed a one day hands-on course.@Philfreeze: Xilinx ISE has been available for Linux for many years already. Maybe even a decade. You didn't look on Xilinx' website?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 01:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on January 06, 2016, 10:28:23 amAnd don't gorget android, all the devices you list don't require the user to change settings or do much in the way of installing stuff, we just use it. PC's are very different with every person wanting it setup their way and that is a challenge in linux. In windows I can fumble around and find settings in the control panel, in linux the control panel is so basic that I have to assume that to do anything else it's comand line only.

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 01:13:48 pm
content: Linux desktops are ok, they work, they are quite usable and they've been possible for several years, but not for most corporate demands.When a company needs its desktops to implement lock-down policies (such as the Group Policies  implemented by MS' Active Directory), Linux doesn't come close to have an alternative to Windows. LDAP can apply certain policies to Linux machines, but it can't even be compared AD's GP.There are many other Windows server and AD features that leave Linux lagging parsecs behind : remote installation, application distribution, user management, integrated DNS, etc.Now, if there is no need for GP or lock-downs, and the applications run on Linux, then Linux desktops are perfectly usable on the desktop, be it on domestic or corporate scenarios.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 03:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 06, 2016, 01:13:48 pmI know at least one large corporation that uses Linux for desktops and OSX for notebooks and does all those things that can't be done.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 04:39:42 pm
content: Quote from: Philfreeze on January 06, 2016, 11:38:02 amXilinx ISE Design Suit 14 for Linux is available here:http://www.xilinx.com/support/download/index.html/content/xilinx/en/downloadNav/design-tools.htmlIt's not immediately obvious from their website, so read the release notes to see which operating systems are supported:http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/sw_manuals/xilinx14_7/irn.pdfAt least:Red Hat Enterprise Workstation 5 (32-bit and 64-bit)Red Hat Enterprise Workstation 6 (32-bit and 64-bit)SUSE Linux Enterprise 11 (32-bit and 64-bit)

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 04:46:43 pm
content: Maybe this gets Microchip to rethink their compiler strategy. Other MCU manufacturers like Renesas and TI teamed up with Redhat to make GCC support their CPU architecture, voilà, free high-quality compiler. Microchip decided that it is a good idea to fork a now dated version of GCC and ask for money if you want do have -O3. They also have their own proprietary libc, whereas the rest of the industry is happy with newlib.That's why PICs aren't an option for me, even if they have very nice peripherals.If Microchip didn't go this odd way, they could have owned the arduino market:http://gerrysweeney.com/microchip-pic-chips-could-have-been-the-power-behind-arduino/

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 04:52:52 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2016, 01:00:31 pmThe same with Linux. For somebody who has never used Linux and windows before, one isn't more or less difficult toconfigure than the other. Ask the same question to somebody who has used Linux for many years but windows only occasionally,he/she will say that windows is more difficult to configure. It all depends what you are used to.Windows, a system build on (artificial) limitations. Linux, a system build on freedom.The interface of windows is designed for non-technical people. One of the many reasons I try to avoid it because I'm a technician.For me, personally, with windows I fight with the computer. With Linux, I work with the computer.

author: delfinom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 04:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 05, 2016, 09:19:52 pmHow could you use something that doesn't even support tab shifting blocks? It's insane. Notepad has more functionality than that turd.

author: delfinom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 05:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on January 06, 2016, 04:39:42 pmYou see, that's the fun part. People have this optimistic impression that if a company is going cross platform they will support everyone's free linux distro. They won't. Xilinix specifically calls out commerical variants of Linux becausea.) the end user will have commerical support if shit goes wrongb.) Xilinix will have commerical support if there's something wrongWorst case is using it on any other system is "use at your own risk" and their tech support won't help or else they would have to hire and train alot more support people.Nothing wrong with that use at your own risk case either since it at least will be available. But people will still moan an incredible amount.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 05:10:36 pm
content: QuoteMicorchip's problems are plenty but mostly not related to their compilers - I have no complaint about the XC8/16 compilers and the C30 compilers are very good.Their problem is with their unwillingness to provide a roadmap for their 8-bit products to migrate to 16/32-bit, and their enormous product offering. Their (8-bit) products were developed for a time when the hardware costs dominated the total development cost. Now, software costs dominates and porting code to / from their 8-bit products is a major pain.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 05:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on January 06, 2016, 04:52:52 pmNo, in windows there are tons of graphical panels with settings, the ubuntu control panel has the most basic of settings only.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 05:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: delfinom on January 06, 2016, 04:59:25 pmErrr, I think you'll find MPLAB 8 does support tab shifting blocks.And even if it didn't, I (and I am sure you) go through about 50 times more edit-compile-program-run cycles to every time a block tab is needed.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 06:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2016, 05:40:00 pmTry Opensuse with KDE. Your experience will be completely different.

author: hamzadis
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 07:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2016, 05:40:00 pmIt seems to me that you are speaking from a position of total ignorance, but displaying the utmost confidence.I took some time to actually install the latest ubuntu just now and take some screenshots. Turns out that yes, there is a control panel, called "system settings", and it has plenty of options to choose from. In fact, the system settings icon is pinned on the big bar to the left at first boot.Here's a screenshot of a fresh Ubuntu installation with the system settings open (notice the big gear icon on the left):Seems like there's plenty of settings there. And here is a screenshot of the network settings options:. Pressing the "Options" button brings up more options than you can shake a stick at.Turns out you can easily search the settings too, in not just one, but two ways. First, you can use the. And second, you can use theetc.Here's the albumwith all the pics above and some more, if someone wants to check them out.So, Simon, please, next time try to not spread FUD about an operating system you seem to have used only once and maybe listen to the people who use it all the time at home and professionally. You may be doing more damage than you think. And I don't even like Ubuntu...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 07:23:12 pm
content: Quote from: hamzadis on January 06, 2016, 07:12:33 pmI took the time to try and use it for some weeks!, you posted images amount to 3 screenshots with more "information" than actual options. That control panel has precious little control over the system. And if you ask for help you will soon find people rattling off comand line commands.... assuming they are willig to help because if you don't know rthis tuff alreadsy they get mad at you. The one spreading FUD is you!

author: delfinom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 09:27:42 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 06, 2016, 05:10:36 pmWow, read the XC8 errata.Using XC8 is a gigantic time bomb. You can't even trust it to do simple math of integers. I am literally too paranoid to use the fucking thing anymore because when you have errata like "When adding an signed int16 to a unsigned int16, the upper msb may be corrupted if the signed int16 was negative". And this has gone on for over two years now. You start to question every single piece of your damn firmware because testing may not catch the stupid compiler being unable to generate math. Don't even get me started on lack of C99 support in the year 2015.I know gcc isn't a perfect compiler either, but it at least doesn't screw up on 2+2The worst part is when there's a compiler bug like I've had where they were inserting their padding bytes in the wrong fucking endian. It took me a week to argue with them to admit they don't even know their own endian. They then refused to provide a fix until the next release which was many months later.It also turns out their ICD3 debugger blindly truncates opcodes in hex files to 14-bit for the PIC16s. Meanwhile the PM3 programmer truncates but then fails agaisn't itself for mismatch. The programming part was a complete hilarity too as microchip's factory couldn't figure out why they were having checksum mismatches with me.In the latest XC8 release, they botched a header for a PIC I was using and duplicated a struct definition which caused their own compiler to barf, it is so so confusing how they are so bad at testing. But them being bad at testing is why the PIC32MZ release was a hilarity to watch.Atmel in comparison provides me fixes to their toolchain on the fly and they eventually package the fix later on.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 09:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: timb on January 06, 2016, 08:35:14 amQuote from: SeanB on January 06, 2016, 08:50:08 amHans Reiser also murdered his Russian bride wife, and for such a smart guy did a really piss poor job of covering the whole thing up.Ian Murdock (theianin Debian) committed suicide last week.You see, in this joke, OS X is like Hans Reiser's wife and Debian is like Ian Murdock.I really shouldn't have to explain this...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 11:05:36 pm
content: Don't quit your day time job to pursue a career in telling jokes. The latter is not going to end well.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 11:32:00 pm
content: QuoteFinding bugs is very easy, especially for newbies.A better approach in cases like that is to provide a piece of code that exhibit the said bugs. So if you post your code here, people may be able to help you identify the root cause and provide a work-around.

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 01:45:21 am
content: Bottom line: there is place for Linux, there is place for Windows XP and Windows 7, but there is absolutely no place for Windows 8 or Windows 10.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 03:41:39 am
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 07, 2016, 01:45:21 amThere is...Illiterate computer users, aka 99% of computer user population. They'll use whatever shit is throw at them and looks "pretty". Been there, seen that and still see itOn the other half, BSD is recovering sanity thanks to DragonFly BSD.I'm a Linux user and dislike the BSD license because it's free lunch for big corps: That nice LLVM and that GPL but that CLA that even Canonical uses.The world is lost, deal with it. My experience with any OS is very awful, not matter what.Linux at least is usable if you keep a proper system if you choose the right flavors:- Gentoo/Funtoo:* Updated system, even to the bleeding-edge. After some experience and frustrations, you stop being scared at it and use certain software to the most updated versions and that makes a difference.* Good development environment: They are forced to have a usable one, because they compile every shit from their system. You can use a good text editor (I don't use vim or emacs, I prefer nano and others) and not those bloated crap like Eclipse, etc.* Crazy compiling every packaging: I understand it may seem crazy at the start but the customization and optimization results are amazing. You need to use CPU cycles to compile your software and deal with their way, but the result is better than the rest. If you have other machines, you could use distcc and make compiling faster.- Arch Linux: I liked it, but started to get insane when needed to use certain software only available under AUR. They are getting too conservative about Pacman and not evolving it enough, I would prefer a mix of the best of Gentoo/Funtoo/Exherbo (this last one has nice additions, but their community is managed by pedantic and annoying nerds).- Ubuntu: Forget about Ubuntu, they are full of shit and Unity sucks. They want to be the Microsoft of Linux, they love CLAs and deriving too much from standardized Linux solutions (Mir vs Wayland). They also put adware on their desktop and bloat it like hell.- - Debian/Linux Mint: Both are a lot better than Ubuntu. Debian runs okay, but generally I find to need to use extra repositories to have certain software updated. The same with Linux Mint (the shinier brother of Ubuntu), needing to get into PPA Hell.- Windows: I use Windows 7 too. I dislike many behaviors and the need to install any kind of shit for functionality considered standard in Linux. There's subtle bugs and they need to be addressed by third party tools, some as silly as the taskbar appearing on top of Windows and that space not being reserved for it. There's lots of interesting software that has no equivalent on Linux, but I have hopes this can change soon when FOSS community wakes up and gets support from big ones (LibreOffice and KiCad are some of my preferred examples).- DragonFly BSD: It looks better than FreeBSD, I need to try it again (I tried it many years ago). But I don't like the BSD license at all.Kind regards.

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 04:37:35 am
content: Quote from: timofonic on January 07, 2016, 03:41:39 amTHANK YOU!Finally I found someone who agrees with me on that: Ubuntu sucks and I absolutely abhor Unity.It's funny how Ubuntu has a legion of fanboysusingdefending it, and dissing everything else. Ubuntu has done more marketing than most other companies in the Linux arena, and I guess that's just paying off now. The huge market share Ubuntu has is more based on marketing than technical merits.I like OpenSuSE and I've been using it since version 9.2. Before that I ran RedHat.BTW, I am from the time we'd order Linux CDs from CheapBytes. I still have about 20 CDs from them, and a printed version of the Man Pages from the early 90s.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 06:57:47 am
content: people forget that OS's are suppost to be usable by people who know little about how the OS work's. There are many trades in the world and people are good at different things, but it seems that using linux requires extra skills that most people don't have and has some pains most people have no interest in. For people just wanting to be able to fire up office and do some spreadsheets linux is no good, for people to live and breath codes it may be a dodle but they can't then claim it's an easy system and ideal for all just because it's easy for them.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 07:20:34 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 07, 2016, 06:57:47 amThat's not even remotely true. As has been stated numerous times, there are Linux distros that install as easily as Windows, with easy to use graphical package management and administration.Add to that things like Android and ChromOS, which are Linux based.Then there's OS X which uses a BSD/Mach hybrid kernel and runs pretty much any *NIX compatible software, including X-Windows based software.So, you could say the various *NIX OS's are in more general use by the public than Windows.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 07:39:22 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 07, 2016, 06:57:47 amYou are repeating your story. Can I repeat it as well?There is no difference in difficulty. It all depends on what you are used to.Most of the windows users are not able to install and/or configure windows. They just buy a pc/laptop with windows pre-installedand when they have some problems (usually within 3 to 4 month's), they call some friend, nephew, neighbour, colleague, whateverto solve the problem for them.And now we have found one advantage of windows. For most people, it's easier to find somebody who can help them with windows problems than for other os's.Once those people have a friend, nephew, neighbour, colleague, whatever that has linux experience, microsoft is done on the desktop.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 08:00:04 am
content: Quote from: timb on January 07, 2016, 07:20:34 amShow me! I have already invested too much time looking for one. Every one I used was good in one thing but had a show stopper elsewhere.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 08:02:16 am
content: Quote from: Karel on January 07, 2016, 07:39:22 ami would like all normally white back grounds (programs, text boxes etc) to appear pale green to make my compter more usable as someone with a dissability (visual stress) can you do that ?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 12:52:44 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 07, 2016, 08:02:16 amYes, I can. I use the KDE desktop, so this is what it looks like:Start -> Configure Desktop -> Application Appearance -> Colors -> Select tab "Colors" -> select: View Background, Window Background or whatever you want and set the color as you prefer.You can also save, import or export new schemes.If you want to pimp your desktop, have a look here:http://kde-look.org/

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 01:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 07, 2016, 08:00:04 amSimon, I agree that the Linux OS installers aren't as simple as Windows, specially since Win7, but this is a tradeoff: simplicity X control. You can't have both, but you can get pretty close with Linux.With the OpenSuSE installer (the one I am more familiar with), if you simply accept all the defaults, and just go "next, next, next... finish", you'll boot to a very good and usable Linux installation in a few minutes.Once the OS is up and running,YaSToffers a complete - and user friendly - system management, including package management. There is no (or very little) need to resort to a shell (aka "cmd line").If you have a spare machine lying around, give it a try.

author: alho
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 05:22:42 pm
content: This thread is way off topic but since moderator seems to approve it I'll jump in.Quote from: Simon on January 07, 2016, 06:57:47 amThis fits me perfectly and thats why I use linux. I just don't want to spend a day disabling windows "features" (I don't have skills needed to disable their spyware), uninstalling manufacturers bloat ware, installing drivers, installing software(registry cleaner? Really???) and after start installing the software that I want to use.Linux has worked on my last 4 laptops out of the box except one wlan card needed a setting changed to get it working. And I need VM to use printer. Epson laser(actually LED) printer doesn't work with generic linux driver. But I don't print much and virtualbox installs with few clicks from software manager so it wasn't big hassle to get it in usable state. I need VM for some programs anyway.Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2016, 05:40:00 pmAfter years of linux use I did try find setting on win8 or 10 and could not do it. Most settings seemed to be useless bling hidden in complex sub menu system that made no sense. Cant say much about linux, haven't had much need to change stuff. I suppose that desktop and distro variant makes a big difference.Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2016, 07:23:12 pmFind out where to click or what to type is there much difference?. I'v grown up using DOS so don't have problem with either. It's a shame that I need to use terminal so rarely I keep forgetting the useful commands.Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2016, 06:52:43 amI haven't had any problems with Arduino on Linux Mint 17.2. Few clicks in software manager to install was all it took to get it working.Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 07, 2016, 04:37:35 am+1

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 06:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 06, 2016, 05:10:36 pmAnother fine PICC bug: A couple of years ago I tried to specify an output name AND path to PICC. It turns out it can't do that. It either supports specifying an output path or an alternate name but NOT both. How stupid is that?

author: delfinom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 09:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 06, 2016, 11:32:00 pmEh? These were NOPs it inserted to align const arrays and this was 2 years ago already. They had plenty of examples given, they confirmed it after much arguing and refusing to acknowledge that 0xFFFF is not a valid opcode and then saying they can't provide a fix immediately because of their precious internal policies. I've long since managed to get my company to ditch the trash micros for something that actually uses GCC. I still have a large list of bugs that aren't fixed in XC8 as I still have legacy projects, at some point you give up dealing with indian tech support which is what they have. Perhaps I'm trying to write too much ~real C~ and I should instead be writing beginner primitive C for a braindead architecture.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 09:58:19 pm
content: QuoteThen it should be breezy for you to post your code pieces showing the top 5 bugs on your list.

author: RogerRowland
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:50:19 am
content: Getting back on topic, more news about Atmel - Dialog - Microchip, if you haven't seen it:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-13/atmel-says-microchip-offer-superior-to-dialog-semiconductor-bid?cmpid=linkedin.company

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:07:58 am
content: Ah so something more concrete than rumors. I'm not sure which is best, the first merger sounded interesting and sounds like microchip are worried, they already have inferior 8 bit micro's

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 10:54:21 am
content: In the best case, Microchip could solve Atmel's supply problems, and Atmel could teach Microchip to make chips that work.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 12:38:17 pm
content: Quote from: andersm on January 14, 2016, 10:54:21 amthat depends on wether Mr D. Head still works at microchip:

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 01:56:45 pm
content: Micromel is coming, buggy chips and proprietary compilers.The end is nigh!Microcontrolypse is coming!http://m.gazette.com/atmel-gets-sweeter-offer-from-microchip-no-word-on-colorado-springs-plants-fate/article/1567709http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-14/dialog-signals-exit-from-atmel-bid-saying-it-won-t-raise-offerHow good are Silicon Labs devices? ST? NXP?

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 02:39:33 pm
content: Peanuts for Atmel?Quote

author: AlxDroidDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 05:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: timofonicExcellent and very good, in that order. TI is very good too.I am dropping development on AVR if this goes through. I am just wondering what this acquisition will do to Arduino, both as a company and as the ecosystem.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 05:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 18, 2016, 05:14:20 pmAlong with stopping a very good partnership I expect they will be pleased to get that one, think of all of those kids learning on arduino's, guess what chgips they will choose when they get into jobs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 05:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 18, 2016, 05:14:20 pmI wouldn't be too worried chips are going away suddenly and isn't the Arduino ecosystem moving towards ARM anway?It will be interesting to see what the merger brings though because the overlap in the microcontroller portfolio is huge.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 05:47:18 pm
content: Hopefully they ditch their own silly micros

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 05:50:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 18, 2016, 05:38:22 pmI'm an Arduino hobbyist type and I'm not concerned. The chips and break-out modules will be available in the low quantities I need for as long as I need. 8 bits is fine for my type of projects and until someone comes up with a ARM IDE as simple as the Arduino IDE I don't forsee an ARM project anytime soon in my future as I'm retired already.Besides I'm not prepared to give up on 5 volt Vcc yet, bigger is better

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 05:53:09 pm
content: Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 18, 2016, 05:14:20 pmWhy not wait to panic until there's something to panic about?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 05:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on January 18, 2016, 05:50:25 pmerr, the Arduino due ?

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 06:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 18, 2016, 05:57:05 pmArduino Due. A failed attempt to stay ahead of the cloners. Again 8 bits supports my needs and the Arduino IDE lets me get done what I need to get done.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 06:41:33 pm
content: I only replied to your commwent about there being no Arduino like ARM IDE, make up your mind which way your going.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 07:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 18, 2016, 06:41:33 pmThe Arduino IDE version I'm using does not do ARM. My point was that the Arduino Due has been no way as popular as the basic 328P based boards. Arduino CC has been continuing to spread to newer and newer products as the Asian cloners have had to taken the 328P based products market away, Pro-mini for $1.77 w/free shipping!Arduino will also never keep up with the 32 bit IDE wars. Arduino's success was never because of the 8 bit AVR hardware board they developed originally, it was rather the simple to use IDE that captured new beginners to the micro-controller world.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 07:21:40 pm
content: QuoteBingo!We have too many specification-chasers who are after the latest hardware, not what uses they can get out of the hardware they already have. Arduino hit that sweet spot of low cost, sufficient functionality / performance, and simplicity.

author: jaromir
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 09:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: andersm on January 18, 2016, 05:53:09 pmIMHO for the same reason why some people love to tell horror stories after midnight, though they know it isn't real.Personally, I can't wait to buy AVR micro with Microchip logo on it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 09:50:31 pm
content: What do you like so much about microchip if you want and AVR with their logo on it ? I just expect the AVR to continue, it's a better design.

author: jaromir
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 09:59:19 pm
content: Yes, AVR will continue, I doubt Microchip will touch a thing - it has still a lot of market potential, they would be silly to stop it. Some people on this forum are acting as if the AVRs are going to disappear and AVR GCC cease to existThe first AVR with Microchip logo is a kind of collectible item for me, no technical reasons there.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 06:57:58 am
content: oh I see. I suppose the first run might be worth money one day.

author: Muessigb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 02:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2016, 01:00:31 pmWell, Linux is actually a lot more configureable than Windows is in general. Especially with Windows 10, Microsoft is just forcing their settings on you and even with Pro versions, many things just can't be changed anymore.I really hope Microchip won't discontinue the AVR line any time soon. Is there any info on that topic?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 03:22:37 pm
content: Microchip would do well to ditch all of their stuff except maybe some 16 bit. AVR is superior in the 8 bit area to microchip and microchip don't even have an ARM solution.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 05:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 03, 2017, 03:22:37 pmI really doubt they are even considering this. It's my impression that 8bit PIC user base is significantly bigger than AVR's, and habit trumps specs.And you might be playing with a discussion pandora box comparing the two MCUs on a forum.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 07:26:17 pm
content: I am aware a comparison about speed and every last bit of performance is pointless. But I think AVR should stay even if they keep the PIC.Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 07:38:35 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 03, 2017, 03:22:37 pmMicrochip would do far, far better not to listen to your advice. They have many more customers than you apparently realise.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 07:40:46 pm
content: Well I'm moving to arm so not my problem.Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 08:41:57 pm
content: Quote from: Muessigb on June 03, 2017, 02:30:29 pmThere was this talk some time ago by Steve Sanghi, Microchip's CEO - I can't access their website now for some reason but it's there - where he addressed this matter specifically. If I remember correctly, he said AVR was the only 8-bit architecture he feared, but now that it's on his side he intends to support and develop it.Whether he'll keep that promise remains to be seen...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2017, 09:06:02 pm
content: I think they may continue to support it as it does have a following. To be honest I think AVR is a newer design than PIC.Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 07:07:15 am
content: I never said that microchip not having an ARM solution had anything to do with the 8 bit families and no I am not making this an atmel versus microchip debate. Microchip clearly bought atmel either because they have good products that they don't want to compete against AND or because they would like to be offering those products themselves. Atmels 32 bit AVR or whatever it was called is a waste of time as the world has moved to ARM based 32 bit chips, so they can go. Microchip in turn also has 32 bit solutions that are not ARM based so they can be replaced by the atmel ARM series. Now as to PIC and AVR they have a following on both sides. I gave up on PIC partly because I was finding it so hard to get a straightfoward pathway into micros (much like I am now with ARM) that I found arduino to the answer and like many others ended up on bare metal AVR. I have used PIC in the past but found life hard and the one time I knew what I was doing I spent a whole weekend trying t program one only to discover it had a silicon bug that was separately documented at which point I lost the [lot with them and started using arduino.There is probably no point in ditching either of the 8 bit families as each have their following but if they wanted to reduce the 8 bit parts down personally I would slowly switch to AVR. They are marginally faster not that this is very important in this type of product and I beleive they are of later design and I've never heared of any having silicon bugs.At the end of the day why did microchip buy atmel ? I hope it was not to ruthlessly remove their products from the market, but then what do companies care about individuals, it's profit and profit alone that counts. Of course if they do rationalise the 32 bit market for ARM and they piss everyone off by ditching AVR they may just find all of the ARM market goes elsewhere as people won't trust them.I am always weary of corporate giants, TE are right cunts but they have all of the good connectors, but some series are so hard to use unless your a huge company dealing in thousands of units because non are stocked. But sadly all they do is buy up all of the smaller connector companies and then they don't have a clue when support is required and could not really care less unless you are Mr Ford.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 07:10:20 am
content: The PIC16 series were the first microcontrollers I ever used so I have a soft spot for them, but the program memory was never all that great and then the compiler situation finally drove me away. Even using Z80 chips would be preferable to dealing with the Microchip compilers again.For 8-bit I find AVR and STM8 preferable these days. I don't have anything against Microchip particularly but the acquisition doesn't seem good for the competitive landscape.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 07:22:46 am
content: Quote from: Simon on June 04, 2017, 07:07:15 amwhich is the reason why three new families came out this year? MK, DA and WK, all with their benefits and in line in price with simillar offerings, while being simpler to deal with documentation-wise and not having a lead time that is starting to become "a year from now" (side note, that is a very scary situation we're heading to)Quotemore straightforward than download the IDE, install, done. download the compiler, install, done. Start coding. I call this being million miles ahead of almost all the competition and when you need to look at the example code you get something that actually compiles and works.Quoteso you found out the existence of the errata documents, with bugs that are not reported in the datasheet. that's not an excuse but everybody do it. and at least the document is right below the datasheet, much harder to find for some other manufacturerIn the meantime, also new ATMEL parts are being introduced.. not only on the ARM side but also in the 8 bit side... almost half their new material is for AVR (marketing, appnote, courses) and now you will even have the assurance on them being produced in greater quantities and maybe "forever" (all improductive lines have been dropped so probably no worries on discontinuing chips)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 07:27:45 am
content: Well I have not been following this closely but from what you say it sounds like microchip will continue to support atmel stuff as well as their own and drop stuff no one buys anymore. That is the best outcome and I hope this is what we get, obviously over time they can rationalise stuff as it's found to be obsolete. I mean seriously the 32 bit AVR looks like the best kept secret, I bet hardly anyone uses them.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 08:57:27 am
content: Quote from: Simon on June 03, 2017, 03:22:37 pm..so they should ditch all the stuff that made them so much more profitable that Atmel had to be bought by them ?To say one MCU is superior is just ignorant - every device has it plus and minus points, making it more or less suitable for a particular application.QuoteSo what? The core just doesn't matter - it's all about the peripherals, memory and packaging.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 11:42:05 am
content: Quote from: Simon on June 04, 2017, 07:07:15 amThat's because you're neither listening nor looking. A few moments of looking at them just found a fun one:QuoteNope, no silicon bugs..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 11:44:11 am
content: Well they have not caused me a problem.Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 01:11:26 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 04, 2017, 11:42:05 amThat has to be an all time classic.... specifically one word, in a random location.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2017, 05:33:36 pm
content: The problem I had that I was helped with on this forum was that on a certain part it won't program at all unless you hold a certain pin to ground. This limits the use of that pin on the part and you MUST know it or you can't use it at all. That was pretty bad and should have been in the datasheet.