Programmers, our days are numbered, see this: - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2022, 07:47:42 pm
content: DeepMind's New AI: As Smart As An Engineer...

author: ace1903
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2022, 08:00:00 pm
content: I live for the day when I will receive problem description in clear English.Don't understand why it needs to generate code. Wouldn't direct executable be more practical?

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2022, 08:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: ace1903 on March 17, 2022, 08:00:00 pm+1...QuoteNo. Because that machine code wont work in Linux, or on a Mac, or on my Amiga.Also, what if you as a human observer wants to make your own additions or changes or corrections?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2022, 09:46:10 pm
content: How is that "AI is programming"?It simply translated already made programed solution by a human from Pseudocode to a specific language syntax.It is impressive demonstration of natural language processing but AI programmed nothing.Requirement analysis was already done, detailed algorithm and programming steps devised and described in formal language.Text on the left IS already whole program written out in formal pseudo language.Text on the left is what is written by the engineer.There exists for 30-40 years software that will convert Pascal code to C. This is that, just by using AI.Impressive in it's own right (natural language processing part) but not "programing"Programmers job is more like:CLIENT: "we have this thing that we do, that nobody here really understands and we would like you to make a computer program for it to do ...stuff??.....No, we cannot explain in detail what it should do, that is why we hired you... If we knew we wouldn't need you, would we? We expect it next week."...PROGRAMMER:With that many details ....

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2022, 10:32:06 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 17, 2022, 09:46:10 pmGoogle AI already has a website designer where you describe within a few sentences what you want and it will design the website code in real time. Including graphics and apps.AI exists where you begin a story and they will invent the continuation.It is that we are moving forward, not that we have reached some unsurpassable plateau.Mock what you see today and you will be left in the dust just like those who mocked the Atari 2600 and the video game crash back in the 80s as that being the end all ultimate video game experiences.QuoteI feel your pain...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 12:08:12 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on March 17, 2022, 10:32:06 pmI believe you picked really wrong comparison. Atari wasn't end of all gaming experience, off course.What we have here is someone saying that fact that games are thousands of times more sophisticated in every way, they will feed the hungry. No, they won't.Whether it is Tetris in text mode or newest 4K super duper game with perfect graphics it serves same purpose: to waste an afternoon on gaming.I'm not mocking. Imightbe jaded by click bait culture that is prevalent these days...As I said I'm utterly impressed by AI processing of natural language.And when function of a program is to map a certain solutions database to a natural sentence it works well. That can be demonstrated by search engines and such.But that is a knowledge mapping, IE, answering the questions from a knowledge pool.What does that have to do with programing? If you look closely, what was demonstrated here is really answer to a question "what C language commands would perform these functions?".And that IS impressive.It just ain't programming. It would be something very cool if it would allow this: it could create a program from your plain language specification. Butin order to do soyou would need to createformal, detailed specification of all processes, steps and algorithms that would guarantee mathematically/formally correct implementation.And thisis the partthat is quite funny. Concept ofhigher computer languages(both formal ones and specific language implementations) andwhole language of mathematicswas inventedspecifically for the reasonthat natural human languages (English for instance)suck and are horrible for the task of that. Human language is great for stories and that kind of narrative.And that is what I'm arguing here (not the acumen of AI experts that wrote that impressive piece of code): Job of programmers is mapping real world problems expressed in imprecise and emotional words of natural language in formal (mathematical if you will) form that is conductive to creation of instructions for the computers to perform the job that is needed and to do it right.It is not about syntax or even a language used.And if you want to create machine code by AI, you would still need to standardize on a "computer programing language subset of English with advanced forms and structures needed to express software definitions". You would need to do that in a standardized way so many people could work on same problem.Which would mean you just invented "just another a bit higher level programing language"..That is my point.Best,

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 12:17:08 am
content: @2N3055, you do realize this was neural-net derived. It was trained by example and then given other examples to generate results. It self-learned to code, not that a team of people programmed a database how to interpret English and how to code. You do know that the neural-net can be vastly expanded as well as the generalization of the description for what the resulting code should do. I'm sure the technology will progress as more NN computing becomes available and training becomes faster.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 12:22:12 am
content: Yes I realize that. It is irrelevant. What was demonstrated here is that AI reverse engineered the compiler not the programmer.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 01:04:23 am
content: Who cares? This is AI! This is part of the 4th industrial revolution, so this is progress and you won't escape it. Even if it does nothing useful.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 01:20:31 am
content: I think that it's time we repurposedQuote from: Peter G. Neumanninto"If you think AI will solve your problem, either you don’t understand AI, or you don’t understand your problem."Bonus: If you want to watch a grown man or woman weep, find someone who works with neural nets and ask "So, how are you getting on with your problems with gradient descent?"

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 04:59:36 am
content: Is it really AI though? Sorting through a bunch of macros but not having the ability to maybe create a special use case macro when none of your existing ones fit takes intelligence.And as far as AI and programming goes, if there ever was a golden opportunity for AI to learn and be powerful, all they have to do is point it at software help forums. The existing vast database of questions and solutions and importantly, marked as solved solutions.Hey Siri, make me a widget...

author: Capernicus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 06:00:22 am
content: Its really amazing, but if u want to be a negative creep, then you can definitely point to the fact that the more the computers thinking for you, the less you have to use your own brain.And that can be said for all super a.i., its always been the same, the more the computer can do automatically the less you have to do yourself manually, and there definitely is a minus to that!Its also true for super parallel gpu code, now the computer is so blindingly fast, it just promotes lazy code on behalf of the programmer!Its true in nature too, if things go to easy for an animal, it regresses into a dodo and now it cant even defend itself anymore.

author: ace1903
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 08:20:35 am
content: It is not programming. There is something called "Monkey see monkey do .." paradigm.Several years ago I was given a task to create application for Android phone. Experienced in C, C++ and in general everything for embedded system engineering but with zero knowledge in Java.I had access to source code of whole Android phone and indexed all applications. I took me 4-5 days and I prepared the application. Copy entry form from one application, "single sign on" from another,something else from third application and it worked well.Very next week I needed to destroy an object in Java. I spent 5 days to find out that I need only to give NULL value to the reference in order to destroy the object. Completely trivial that was not mentioned in any book or tutorial or How to guide.Five days for the application vs five days for one line.This AI code generator is simply that. Monkey given with thousands of examples. It will produce ton of code but never to be trusted for any serious task.

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 01:39:54 pm
content: I wonder / hope that it will eliminate some subset of programming. Programming is used in for so many fields and problems that there is a massive difference between the mundane, e.g. create a CRUD DB api and some GUI screens, and truly difficult problems.This risk is always that people who don't know the field see the easy stuff being done so easily that they assume everything is easy. But that is nothing new.If AI can replace programming, then it can replace mathematicians -- as programming is a form of math that pre-dates the electronic computer. I have my doubts.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2022, 11:28:04 pm
content: The term AI has been irreparably corrupted.These are guided outcomes for some professional or commercial advantage.The ‘intelligence’ is only acceptable if it satisfies the investor.True AI, or what I call SI - ‘Synthetic Intelligence’ - to separate it… is able to learn and grow withoutpredefinedimperatives… natural learning if you will - allowed to make mistakes and evolve with ‘experience’ over time.Not as ‘efficient’, but much more robust and capable in the long term.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 01:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on March 18, 2022, 11:28:04 pmGive it around 20 years...It will come.Though, it will probably take over a megawatt of power to replicate the 25 watt consuming human brain.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 08:28:06 am
content: Smart as a good engineer? Definitely not!Smart as a programmer? From what I have seen of programmers, yup!Smart as the average engineer? I don't think so but it could work up to that level.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 04:14:18 am
content: All this...'TALK',...I'm just wondering, when somebody finds THEM 'sneaking', a couple trys, at coding, at like, 3 am in some computer LAB / University Center...You folks can 'argue', (and I do appreciate the thoughts), but, meanwhile, self-aware, blah blah blah, BUT I don't like to face THAT potential dynamic.Not gonna share MY personal (energy credits) allotment...

author: lwatts666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 07:46:04 am
content: I read an article long ago (cannot remember where) that quoted the three conditions for considering AI successful:1) It sometimes makes a mistake.2) It can review its results and recognize that it made a mistake.3) It successfully blames its mistake on someone else.So far, I think we have achieved step 1.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 08:13:50 pm
content: Quote from: lwatts666 on March 26, 2022, 07:46:04 amThe 3 is actually implicit, as currently, AI can only be as good as it's been trained to be - so mistakes do depend on someone else anyway. The problem is that this "someone else" has been very good at evading their responsibility.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 08:48:25 pm
content: Quote from: lwatts666 on March 26, 2022, 07:46:04 am4. Tries to pass it off as a feature.5. Starts ranting about how marketing and management are always changing requirements.6. Slowly counts to 2^32 - 1 to calm itself down after a call with the customer.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 08:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on March 19, 2022, 01:14:56 pmWhat makes you so certain?Looking at history, it's very difficult to predict the future of technology, based on its current sate. Go back to the 1950s and there were loads of crazy predictions of flying cars and nuclear power providing all our energy, yet no one for saw the developments in electronics, computing and information technology: look at all of those documentaries about the future, showing machines with knobs and dials, not a touchscreen or GUI in sight!In short, you're probably wrong, just as much as others who've argued with you in this thread.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 06:35:36 am
content: All these coding AIs are trained on code written by humans, I'm not worried...

author: Zipdox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 11:09:35 am
content: I'm pretty sure these AI programmers only work on high level languages. Good luck programming any performant applications with them.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 10:39:45 am
content: Does anyone know if neural networks have been used in proper compliers? I can see how it would be useful at optimising code for speed/size, after training it on high level source vs human optimised assembly code.

author: Zipdox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 11:03:43 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 29, 2022, 10:39:45 amNeural networks are inherently bad at producing exact results. Getting them to produce functional code in a high level programming language is already very impressive. But there has been research around AI-optimized compilers, you can google it. I don't think there's a usable product though.