1000 Watt 50KV DC homemade power supply by glasslinger - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 04:20:00 am
content: making a 1000 Watt 50KV DC power supply by glasslingerthis guy doesn't F around

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 08:16:28 am
content: Looking for troubleUsing cutting torch with a lot of paint thinner in the aftergroundCrazy guy

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 09:06:42 am
content: Hmmm. He doesn't seem to have heard of using an angle grinder and thin cutting disk. Much neater results, and less expendables cost.Or leather gloves for handling hot things.I needs to get me a bandsaw.His 1.1 turns per volt on the original primary coil, was with the original iron core geometry.But in his transformer he has a longer magnetic path, and less than half the iron cross section.Would be nice to measure at what drive voltage and load the core starts to saturate.At 39:40 faaaark... Deathwish Man! Holding a piece of what looks like CRT EHT wire by the insulation in bare hands, using it to arc over the 50KV transformer output terminals. I would not do that. Relying on the wire insulation to not break down, and also that the transformer secondary is floating. But even one end of the wire to one terminal arcs thinly - the current is via capacitance of the wire to his hands. Also he's bringing his hands too close to the terminals - looks like closer than the arc draw-out length.This guy takes too many risks, for no good reason. For that test he should be using a long perspex rod to hold the wire.Also that scene with the paint thinners splishy splashy and bare hands had me wincing. Couldn't he do that outside? Gloves? Doesn't care about 'workshop goes boom', or cancer?Then when he's oil filling the tank - "it's old X-ray machine insulating oil, don't know why it foams up like that." Yikes! Also he apparently doesn't know that old insulating oil often contained (or actually was 100%) Polychlorinated biphenyls. The dreaded PCB oil.Still a nice construction project though.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 12:19:28 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 14, 2014, 09:06:42 amX-ray generator oil is pretty much always safe (not PCB oil).I believe the reason is to do with the requirements for medical devices. You wouldn't want a PCB oil leak in a hospital.The foaming is weird though, be interested to know what that means, if anything.

author: I_may_be_drunk_right_now
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 01:33:05 pm
content: Amateur.

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 02:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: I_may_be_drunk_right_now on March 14, 2014, 01:33:05 pm3:22..."The fire brigade is only a phone call away" ... said his tombstone

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 02:41:11 pm
content: Quote from: I_may_be_drunk_right_now on March 14, 2014, 01:33:05 pmThat dude makes me want to get drunk somehow. I don't even drink.

author: I_may_be_drunk_right_now
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 03:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: CaptnYellowShirt on March 14, 2014, 02:13:16 pmThe guy has an amazing setup and his act is hilarious. His setup is probably safer than walking across the street.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 03:18:49 pm
content: I guess the blonde wig and tatty old dress are his version of safety gear and lab coat?

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 03:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: I_may_be_drunk_right_now on March 14, 2014, 03:14:44 pmYeah, it's pretty clear that he knows what he's doing. He couldn't even assemble half that stuff if he weren't a careful bloke.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 03:32:35 pm
content: Why is everyone saying "he" when the presenter has every appearance of being a "she"?

author: granz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 03:35:02 pm
content: That same guy (first one) has an older video where he disassembles a dental x-ray unit, fires it up in open air on the bench and is checking that it is "safe" with an archaic geiger counter (using his hand of course to hold the detector). I'm pretty sure he's not too concerned about cancer etc. Now, I like x-rays as much as the next guy, but at least do that outside with the thing facing away from you....

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 04:08:00 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 14, 2014, 02:41:11 pmLol'd

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 04:15:29 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on March 14, 2014, 12:19:28 pmThe foaming is because he pulled a very strong vaccuum on the case, so all the dissolved air is coming out of the oil and the lower pressures means that there needs to be less surface tension to support the bubbles.Quote from: IanB on March 14, 2014, 03:32:35 pmI get that too

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 04:44:30 pm
content: Gaahhh!! His frequency calculation is completely wrong! To avoid saturation, it needs to be multiplied by 3.7 AND the ratio of core cross sectional area! Fortunately he probably has enough overhead with the 1/16 ratio, since it looks like there's about 1/4th the core in there.Tim

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 06:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 14, 2014, 03:32:35 pmretired electronics engineer, Gender MaleHouston Tx. Ron Soyland or Ronna Saylana, take your pick, and maybe we should leave it at that

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 06:43:03 pm
content: Hey Mr Soyland. Another nutty crazy who makes tubes in his garage.. Its not that hard and I wish more people did it. I believe he is a prof from texas or something like that. I think we all however need to chip in and buy him proper lab attire. As said before, I love the oxy natural gas torch (See his previous videos about that) in front of the paint thinner! Lets give him the benefit of the doubt that perhaps thats not what is actually inside those cans.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 07:01:36 pm
content: people are weird.

author: KarlosVandango
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 07:16:00 pm
content: This was interesting watching!More likely born before the day of the H&S mob moved in! I think he is past the age of caring! He's survived this long...(!) But you got to be careful what you broadcast to people (i.e on youtube) because some won't know or appreciate the dangerous side of electricity!It's funny because of most of the top EE guy's I know (they have years of practice, and qualifications as long as your arm) do the craziest of things without thought about explosions, electrocution, inflammable materials... carcinogenic materials...H&S was beaten into us apprentices when we were starting out!Good watching though... See "Photonicinduction" on youtube for more high-voltage shenanigans!Cheers!Karl

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 01:45:05 am
content: Quote from: Psi on March 14, 2014, 12:19:28 pmNope. Ones made in the last few decades are PCB oil free, butoldones generally do contain PCB oil.I found this out when looking up an old X-ray head I was disassembling. The oil was listed as being PCB. Yes, I treated it very carefully, and eventually disposed of it properly via a local council 'waste oils collection. They got very excited about being presented with that.The foaming is weird though, be interested to know what that means, if anything.Not really. Probably a combination of dissolved air, water and some fraction of more volatile oils. The latter might include age-related chemical breakdown of the original oil components.What's the bet his/her vacuum pump outlet isn't ducted to outside?An interesting point I learned from that video is to include insulating baffles to prevent electrostatically induced oil flow currents. Good point. Even insulating oil can carry some free electrons in oil currents, and those could build up on the surface of wire insulation, etc, eventually breaking it down.Long ago I saw an article in Scientific American's 'Amateur Scientist' section, about building a Van De Graph generator using piped oil as the charge carrier, instead of a moving rubber belt. It worked really well.Somewhere in here, presumably:http://amasci.com/amateur/sciamdx.htmlCan't find an online copy of the article. But I'm pretty sure it's in my boxes of old SciAm magazines.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:21:08 am
content: None of the old timers ever cared about PCB's. I new guys who as late as just a few years ago still used the stuff. My friend Howard Brady who was an engineer of engineers in both chemistry and physics always said there was no real foundation in the fear of their use. Wish he was still alive. He passed away a few years ago after a very long happy life! Never the less, I try to avoid them. DiElektrol is a better product that is as safe as mineral oil and has replaced older oils in nearly all applications.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:29:34 am
content: Quote from: calexanian on March 15, 2014, 02:21:08 amThis kind of exaggerated fear happens more than it should. I once came across a fenced off area of grass covered ground with a sign saying "Danger! Keep out! We found asbestos buried here!" No consideration of the fact that the danger from asbestos presents from airborne dust resulting from cutting or mechanical pulverization. Hardly a danger if it's buried under wet earth where nobody can see it.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 03:11:42 am
content: it's human nature to overreact to the unknown. "I heard asbestos is pretty bad stuff" becomes "asbestos will kill you in a single breath" after a few cycles of The Telephone Game.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 03:22:07 am
content: Quote from: IanB on March 15, 2014, 02:29:34 amCompletely agree, about _some_ hazards. But then there are others that are officially downplayed due to financial interests of powerful lobby groups, and/or deeper reasons. Lies and deception abound, so it's best to make your own judgments. And since with such hazards I don't have the ability to perform any kind of direct experimental analysis, in lots of cases I apply the precautionary principle. ie avoid if at all possible. Mostly this influences choices of foods, re additives like Aspartame and many others.In the case of PCBs in which the chemical family contains thousands of variants, some with similarities to dioxins, I do my best to avoid exposure.Another hazard you'll come across with some X-ray tubes is Beryllium. Often used in pure metallic form for the tube X-ray window. Please don't kid yourself that Beryllium isn't severely hazardous.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 06:27:18 am
content: Beryllium and more to the point Berylliosis can be serious. Generally it is alloyed as in grid side rods in certain tubes, and in electrical contacts and compression diaphragms. In alloy form it is far more chemically bound and less likely to be bio variable, however metallic Beryllium does get used where a coefficient of expansion compatible to that of alumina if required in extreme high voltage tubes and electronics. If introduced to the body can interrupt enzyme functions and really jack you up in a hurry. Fortunately most products use it in alloy form. No need to go stripping out old switches and tubes to get rid of it. Just don't crush old contacts and snort them!! You are far more likely to get sick from the crap a leaf blower blows off the road and into the air than an old piece of test gear!

author: granz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 11:22:21 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on March 15, 2014, 06:27:18 amBeryllium oxide (I believe) is what is used as the insulator on most of the magnetrons I've pulled from old microwave ovens.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 11:52:04 pm
content: Old maggies may be BeO, however newer ones use alumina -- colored with a little bit of chrome. (In other words... polycrystalline ruby!)Tim

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 12:23:20 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 15, 2014, 01:45:05 amSome friends of mine in the hydraulics division of MALS-14 back in 2011 had that problem.They had a 0-50GPM flow rate meter inside a hydraulics test bench. (basically, a few dozen meters, pressure gauges, a few variable speed pumps, etc)Said flow rate meter is a pretty damn expensive pyrex tube about 2.5 inch outside diameter, basically a long funnel, tapered on the order of .25 inches per foot, with three ribs that hold a ~1 inch diameter steel ball bearing centered in the pipe.obviously the more oil you pump through it, the higher the ball slides up the column.well, it cracked when a lightning bolt flashed through it.and a short time later the replacement did too.. same story too.I didn't hear the end of it because i was in transition out of the system at that time but the hydraulics guys were thinking this is major weird shit and were quite a bit freaked out about it.the flow meter was on the order of 18 inches long, basically held in place by o rings on both sides clamped in a fixture, connected with standard hydraulic hoses on the order of 1 inch inside diameter, perhaps a bit larger.I do recall the other variable is there was a switch to a different kind of hydraulic oil.I tried to do a breakdown test, could not get it to break down, I was holding two wires hooked up to a 2.2KVac MOT as close as i could to each other, couldn't see the oil breakdown before i shorted out the transformer.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 12:56:01 am
content: Quote from: johansen on March 16, 2014, 12:23:20 amThat's called a rotameter.Ironically, the better the insulating properties of the oil, the worse the problem becomes. You needed to make the oil conductive (i.e. static dissipative) in order to avoid the problem.If you have a perfectly insulating oil flowing through a system, you are in danger of creating a static electricity generating machine. If you cause a static charge to build up in most systems, you are screwed. In this context, 2.2 kV is trivial. Static charge potentials can easily reach the 10's or 100's of kV. 1 MV is not impossible.This problem is very well known in all industries that deal with pumped insulating liquids such as fuels. A static discharge in the proximity of a volatile flammable liquid can lead to a very damaging explosion. Rigorous safeguards must always be put in place against such an event.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 02:16:41 am
content: Beryllium is used on Alumina and lava insulators in metallic form bonded down to serve as a place to bond other things in ceramic tubes. Beryllium oxide is used as mentioned as an insulator as well. Also let us not forget Beryllium Copper alloys in all of their uses. Contacts, Diaphragms, etc.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 09:58:24 am
content: Thought you might like to see this. It's a water-cooled X-Ray tube from an X-Ray fluorescence spectrometer. The round end window is a very thin foil of pure beryllium. It's slightly concave, since it has air pressure on one side and a vacuum on the other, and isn't thick enough to withstand the pressure if flat.Unfortunately when I salvaged this, someone else had already taken the power supply. Dammit.Speaking of charge carried by fluids, how do you water cool internal components of a device like this that are at 75KV?A: You use super-distilled water, and the plastic hoses carrying the water in and out spiral many times around an insulating central column, immersed in oil. That's why this thing is so long - most of it is there to get enough length in the water cooling spiral inside, to withstand the high voltage.Quote from: IanB on March 16, 2014, 12:56:01 amOh you can get much more than 1MV. It's only limited by the breakdown voltage of the system, no other limit. If using insulating hoses over fairly large structures, many MV are possible.I'd expect preventing this happening would be easy enough - just include metal fittings throughout the hydraulics and wire them all to ground.Btw, related:http://74.63.154.231/here/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Chevalier_electrical_surface_potential-2007.pdfThe Earth’s Electrical Surface PotentialA summary of present understanding (January 2007)

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 02:17:17 am
content: de-ionized water is nasty stuff.dissolves teflon, and other things.could you cool that tube with oil?75KV isn't that hard to make, but how many mA do you need?

author: I_may_be_drunk_right_now
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 02:22:53 am
content: Quote from: staxquad on March 14, 2014, 06:36:08 pm

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 02:25:00 am
content: Quote from: johansen on March 17, 2014, 02:17:17 amHuh? I think your are thinking of something else. Deionized water is simply very pure H20. You can drink it.

author: I_may_be_drunk_right_now
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 02:39:39 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 17, 2014, 02:25:00 amYeah, I have a jug of the stuff here, it's on sale in every pharmacy. Maybe the ultra-pure water they use for IC fabrication, that's another story.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrapure_waterBut it's not that dangerous, I've heard that urban legend before though. I mean they use Teflon pipes for the stuff mostly because they don't want metal contamination in the water.But hey, if you want something dangeroushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acidOr maybe google "stuff I won't work with" for even more fun.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 04:15:29 am
content: no i'm quite serious about it dissolving teflon.but its only a problem when you have de-ionized water on tap in laboratories.i've heard some stories about drinking it, i wouldn't.no, ultra distilled water is not the same thing.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 04:38:07 am
content: Quote from: johansen on March 17, 2014, 04:15:29 amIt is a bit of an urban legend. Deionized water is no more harmful than tap water. It is the same substance as distilled water, made by a different process. If it is made using a food grade process (i.e. guaranteed free of harmful impurities or contaminants) you can drink it as much as you like.Teflon (PTFE) is one of the most chemically inert substances known. It resists acids, alkalies, oxidizing agents and many organic solvents. It is not going to be damaged by pure water.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 05:58:36 am
content: Quote from: johansen on March 17, 2014, 04:15:29 amWhat are they teaching in the schools nowadays??? What next?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:37:03 am
content: Come to think of it, there was that one case of that dangerous H2O melting someone...

author: CaptnYellowShirt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 04:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 17, 2014, 06:37:03 amEat deionized water, you bitch!

author: granz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 05:12:50 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on March 15, 2014, 11:52:04 pmThe few older ones I have have a white insulator, so I would guess those are most likely BeO. I thought I had one of the ruby ones which you speak of, but I can't seem to find it... Anyhow, that's nice to know, although I don't have plans for the near future of taking either type to the bench grinder

author: granz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 05:16:53 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 16, 2014, 09:58:24 amThat's quite the beauty! What's the rated current on something like that? I'm curious what brand/model of spectrometer it came from, if you remember.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 05:41:59 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 14, 2014, 02:41:11 pmyou are compelled to drink by photo induction(edit: oops, spoiler alert, they were celebrating the winner in a competition between a modern Miele motor and an old hand-cranked Singer sewing machine)

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 09:46:36 am
content: Quote from: granz on March 17, 2014, 05:12:50 pmI've never come across a BeO magnetron in a domestic microwave, irrespective of colour. It's pretty easy to tell, the stuff's so thermally conductive it feels cold like a block of aluminium.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 10:52:11 am
content: Quote from: johansen on March 17, 2014, 02:17:17 amI.... what? Reference please? (Polite way of saying I seriously doubt this.)It's just very pure H2O.Which you can drink. But not drink as your only water source, as you rapidly lose minerals. Plenty going out in urine as usual, few coming in. Highly not recommended.QuotePresumably they knew what they were doing in choosing water. I wouldn't experiment.It's 4.2KW. Have not found the exact data sheet.Quote from: granz on March 17, 2014, 05:16:53 pmIt's an OEG 94-J RH, from an old ARL FISONS XRF machine. That sadly had been mostly stripped already.My notes on the tube as found:- Dirty, plus oil leak from emitter end seal.- Lead shield has been cut open, to allow access to broken then bent water pipe end.- One of the cathode cooling water hose fittings was broken off. Probably due to some idiot spannering the pipe fitting without applying holding spanner to the pipe end fitting.The copper tube had been bent up to allow plastic hose to be clamped directly on the copper pipe end.It's repairable. Have all fittings.Grub screws: 1.6mm allen key.BEWARE - delicate thin end window. It's about 0.4mm thick and has vacuum on the inside. DO NOT TOUCH!POISON - the end window is made of Beryllium. Highly toxic & carcinogenic. DO NOT TOUCH!If broken, treat as serious contaminant. Even fine dust particles are hazardous - poisonous & carcinogenic.Target material is Rhodium. Extremely expensive. Don't know qty present.I disassembled tube body, removed insulating oil.Front oil seal O-ring is hardened by X-ray exposure. It does not seal and MUST be replaced if the tube is to be used.Vacuum evacuation copper nipple had heatshrink black sleaving. I cut off. Should replace.To bend out the broken water pipe, someone had cut through the lead shielding wrapped around the tube. I hammered flat and soldered the cuts.The lead shielding was fastened to the metal tube body with double sided sticky tape in three strips. The material of these was very hard to remove from the stainless body near the X-ray source, as the X-rays had hardened it to a glassy substance. Used wire brush bench grinder.Also there was lead foil sticky tape down the join line of the lead shielding.Reassembling, I left the internal cooling pipe couplings to the X-ray anode shaft disconnected.DO NOT operate tube until internal connections are rejoined, and oil replaced.Oil must be replaced under vacuum to ensure no air pockets inside.Small U shaped lead strip goes between cathode cooling pipes. It was held in place with silastic, but I don't think the silastic was original.Rear connector + pipes - removal: remove 3 grub screws around periphery of mounting flange. Push the structure INWARDS. It's designed to remove together with the X-ray core tube, to allow working on cooling pipe fittings.I did not find the power supply for the tube. It had been taken by someone who didn't bother to also take the unobtainium HV connector they'd disconnected from the PS. Therefore they didn't intend to use the PS. Probably copper strippers, dammit! I did get the HV cable with the HV connector on both ends.Apart from the above, tube is very likely functional. The inner tube has been replaced, by Varian at least once before. As the model & serial number tag on the base matches the serial number engraved on one of three retaining strips at the emitter end, BUT... on the other side of the retaining strip there's another, earlier serial number engraved.------It's very appealing to get/build a power supply for it, but I'm resisting the temptation. Seriously a 4KW X-Ray source is something I'm sensible enough to not want to play with.So this is just one of the nicest items in my 'vacuum electron devices' collection. Except that I can't put it anywhere on display to random people, because someone would poke their finger through the Beryllium window.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:08:14 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on March 17, 2014, 04:15:29 amI have deionized water on tap. No, it doesn't dissolve anything, except things normally dissolved by water.All deionized means is that all the dissolved minerals - sodium, calcium, etc. - which exist in the form of ions dissolved in the water have been removed, generally via an ion-exchange system. Distillation produces the same effect, just by a different method. The end result is very pure water, but the water doesn't know how it was made. We have a RO+Ion exchange system, which outputs 15MOhm/cm+ water.

author: granz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 02:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on March 18, 2014, 09:46:36 amAny idea what's a good way to know for sure, not based on color of how thermally conductive it "feels"? (Non-destructively of course.) The few that I have were not from domestic microwaves, but high-power commercial units.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 03:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: Nerull on March 18, 2014, 12:08:14 pmHe might be thinking about superheating it.. Care to give it a try and video the results :-)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 07:25:38 pm
content: No thanks, I value my face.