Power switch - which is right, up = on or down=on ?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 08:49:14 am
content: A Youtube comment on myDynamco vintage 1967 digital meter reviewgot me thinking - which way do you consider to be the 'natural' orientation for a power switch?I've always considered 'down=on' to be normal, this being the case for UK switched power outlets, which as eveyone knows are the best in the world.Circuit breakers tend to be up=on but there are safety/failsafe reasns for that so I'll discount these.Let the fighting begin....

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 08:55:52 am
content: This came up recently on a small project here. The product was for UK and USA as well as other parts of the world. I knew the standard in the USA was down for off, so we decided to side-step the problem (literally!) by mounting the switch horizontally. There weren't any safety issues in this case because the product was battery operated, not line powered. It would be interesting to see a list of which countries apply which standard.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 09:03:10 am
content: i'm in 50Hz country, so down is on!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 09:05:46 am
content: Here in 'stralia, I think our light switches are wrong. Although our circuit breakers in the fuseboxes are the correct way- down for off.The reason that "down for off" is correct is for when you are being electrocuted whilst working on the fusebox, you can pull down on the switch by so doing cut the power as you slide down the wall...

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 09:09:22 am
content: Also, in the UK, many power switches have the upper surface of the switch coloured red (or marked in an similarly visible way) so that it's obvious when the switch is on and the socket is live (I guess that falls down when the switch is above eye-level, but that's rarely the case).If the convention was the other way, that wouldn't work.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 09:23:22 am
content: you dont fall down by electricity. you fall down when either you a kicked away by electricity or when you are dead. many cases i got electrocuted, if somebody stay behind me, i will hit his face with my elbow due to reflex.

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 09:36:57 am
content: Universal solution - use a pushbutton

author: stl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 10:02:24 am
content: If the circuit breakers are On when Up thats probably the convention, there are safety reasons to do so with some equipment (so the gravity won't turn them on by accident) but certainly not for the ones we have at home. What I've learned in school was to set the swithes Up=On and that's what makes sense to me...

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 10:46:04 am
content: I voted ( Down= On ) so to balance the current voting scoreNo no no , its more practical the Down= on , especially if the switch is located in a dark place.(speaking always about lighting switches on the wall )In the control panels , I prefer the Up-On .

author: Wim_L
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 11:00:21 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 26, 2011, 09:23:22 amAlways interesting to see someone describe electrocution as if it is a habit for them.And to me, down=off seems to make sense. Of course, some swithes have the I O markings to make it obvious. If the switches aren't marked, write it on the front panel or add an indicator light to be sure.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 11:44:30 am
content: Missile switches and Switchboard Switches- ON/FIRE=UPEverything else ON=DOWNWhat about Left/Right switches?And wars have been fought over correct LED colours...Dave.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 12:37:47 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2011, 11:44:30 amthat's easy,onis a super bright blue led andoffis an even brighter one

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 01:38:31 pm
content: LEDs should blink, and you can never have too many

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 01:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: Wim_L on May 26, 2011, 11:00:21 amits not a pleasurable habit, its just experience. its better telling/teaching experience rather than talking things we dont have a clue in the real life and will make deception.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 02:27:22 pm
content: It seems simple to me that if the one thing needs to be up for on as is the example of circuit breakers, then everything else should be the same to avoid confusion in an emergency situation.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 02:54:49 pm
content: Analogy:UP = awake, alert, happy, excited, uppers = speed, thus = onDown = asleep, down, sad, tired, downers = tranquilizers, thus = offIn usage:lets start it upOK, we're done, shut it downFor instruments, good to have an annunicator when orientation can change to confirm down or up as in a fighter plane, submarine, or in space.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 04:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 26, 2011, 08:49:14 amIn avionics and aircraft control UP is ON, PUSH is ON, forward is INCREASE, etc.

author: veeev
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 04:37:01 pm
content: At least in Germany, there is no standard how light switches switch on, although I prefer down or a twist switch.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 04:45:32 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2011, 11:44:30 amPeace only came with RGB LEDs with user adjustable colors.BTW - Up = On.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 05:09:47 pm
content: I've got to admit that from a safety point of view on it should be up = on (less likely to be knocked on by accident ie things dropping against it) however by convention in the UK on is down and that is how I implement it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 05:12:42 pm
content: maybe there's semantic confusion here (at least by me). look at the switch below. here, the standard for ON is by pushing the bottom part of the switch, hence protruding the top part. so what actually up and down? pressing "down" = ON, or protruding "up" = ON?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 05:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2011, 11:44:30 amYou just wake up memories 20 years old ,about such switches in Italian cars by FIAT .Long live TOYOTA

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 06:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 26, 2011, 09:23:22 amYou have never been electrocuted. Electrocution = electric + execution.Incidentally, there is a viable argument that says the job of a circuit breaker is to open the circuit, so when they are "on" then the circuit is open. It is designed like this so that something accidentally falling on it cannot activate a circuit.

author: ziq8tsi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 06:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: Zad on May 26, 2011, 06:01:46 pmSimilarly, there is a convention (at least in the UK) that regular taps turn clockwise to open, whereas stopcocks turn clockwise to close. And in this case there is no inherent safety advantage to turning one way or the other, so it would appear to be more about making the "default" position be fully anticlockwise.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 08:06:18 pm
content: Quote from: ziq8tsi on May 26, 2011, 06:29:57 pmLOL Check your sources. And yes, we have two separate taps for hot and cold water. It's less confusing this way!

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 08:12:49 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on May 26, 2011, 02:54:49 pmSo if down was on someone would have to say:Shut that thing up! It's making too much noise!BTW I prefer down - off

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 08:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on May 26, 2011, 04:18:13 pmExcept for altitude. Forward is decrease on altitude.

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 08:31:13 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on May 26, 2011, 08:23:09 pmYes. But even that is very logical. It's like when you push on the yoke to pitch down.

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 09:17:30 pm
content: I vote for down as that is way it is always done in Australia and habit wins over my vote - logic gets no say.The logical method however would be a centre off toggle switch.No, come to think of that won't work, someone will then bitch about centre should not be off.In the end, use whatever methodyouprefer unless explicitly specified.

author: johnmx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 10:00:09 pm
content: I follow two rules conceived by me and both outcome to the same result, Up = ON.The first one applies to the light switches installed in our homes. When we are at home we spent more time in any room with the light ON than with it OFF. Since the switches are more aesthetically pleasing when they are ‘up’, they should be on that position when we are in the room.The second rule applies to electric/electronic equipment. Normally the switches are bellow eye-level and in some situations it’s difficult to know if we left the equipment turned ON without lowering our head. This should be avoided.The attached pictures illustrate this situation. If I’m too close to the equipment, I can’t see if it’s ON or OFF (‘switch_off.jpg’). If it is ON then it should be easy to see, so I can go home without worries (switch_on.jpg).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 10:23:56 pm
content: Quote from: johnmx on May 26, 2011, 10:00:09 pmThat's surely down to the aesthetics of the switch - there are probably some that look nicer when downQuoteBut it would be FAR more obvious, and more visible at a distance if the top surface of the switch was brightly coloured and down was on.

author: johnmx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2011, 10:32:15 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 26, 2011, 10:23:56 pmOf course I cannot apply those rules if the switch already has a natural orientation, like that one with colored surface or with text written.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 01:46:38 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 26, 2011, 05:12:42 pmI agree, these particular kinds of switch are a bit confusing at first sight.Even after I get used to them,I still don't like them!Other than those,it's pretty much a cultural thing about which you prefer.Non-Technical people happily go from one country to another without any trauma about switches.After all, if a light switch is off ,you can't make it more off by operating the switch the wrong way,or vice versa.Technical people have got used to the fact that some switches work one way,& the others the other way.Most equipment has some indication of on & off.I hate it when manufacturers remove the indicator lamps from their equipment & rely on the switch position to show "on".Like Weller soldering irons,the old ones had a light,the new ones just use a red blob on the switch.You don't know if the thing is on until you try to solder & find it's switched off on the wall!!VK6ZGO

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 01:51:23 am
content: Some people must get themselves into all sort of panic when they encounter the hall switching arrangement.Either way can be on - depending on the other switch(es).Seems a bit obsessive compulsive when you consider that.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 02:14:27 am
content: Quote from: RayJones on May 27, 2011, 01:51:23 amIs this the Australian description ,of what we say in Greece as "Aller retour" ( with root, words from France ) ?

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 02:35:39 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on May 27, 2011, 02:14:27 amTo be honest NFI.There are a couple of ways it can be wired, but essentially active comes into the common of a SPDT switch.The two poles are then wired over some distance to the two poles of another SPDT switch, the common of that switch then connects to your load, typically a light bulb, the other side of which connects to neutral.Switches are placed at either end of a hallway, or even large rooms, allowing the light to be turned on/off from either position.The only explanation for Ale Return I have is after a few beers you need to relieve your bladder

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 02:54:13 am
content: Quote from: RayJones on May 27, 2011, 02:35:39 amWell my strong point ( as it goes ) Is English , my weak point the German language ,about France is an unknown territory that snobs the English language.Even so yes , it is the same arrangement , and I edited my message above with the correct spelling,and so no more beers , they are costly this days..

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 04:08:41 am
content: In the US up is on for single pole toggle, rocker, slide and button wall switches and toggle switches have on/off printed on them. I think most equipment also uses the up position for on here, unlike in Europe where many are on-down, like my espresso machine pump switch. It used to really bother me in Europe that there were no standards for wall switches (at least in Poland) - one room would be on-up, another on-down. WTF?!? More modern switches seem to have one or the other visually designed into them nowadays, so it's probably more likely that installers will be more uniform when mounting them.

author: Jon Chandler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 05:12:43 am
content: My switches are labelled OFF and NO. Oh wait. Nevermind.

author: Russel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 05:43:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2011, 11:44:30 amAs I have always understood it:Up / Down switch - Up is onRight / Left switch - Right is onI do have one lamp that is on when switched to the left and it drives me nuts!

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 07:02:27 am
content: Quote from: RayJones on May 27, 2011, 02:35:39 amIt can get even more confusing if it is a long corridor and you have intermediate switches you can then control a light from 3 or more positions so up or down becomes meaningless.

author: RayJones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 07:33:15 am
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on May 27, 2011, 07:02:27 amThe 3 way switching (and more) had me baffled for many years, then it was explained to me and it became so damn obvious.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 08:02:01 am
content: Quote from: sacherjj on May 26, 2011, 08:23:09 pmYou don't pitch down to go down. You pitch down to increase airspeed (forward = increase.)Altitude is controlled with a throttle or propellers pitch controls (forward = increase.)

author: Slobodan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 09:04:38 am
content: It is simple. There is a standard in Serbia which says that UP is ON, becouse in case of en electric shock you can (durin falling down, for example) switch it DOWN (OFF).

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 02:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on May 27, 2011, 08:02:01 amI was referring to the pitch of the entire plane (angle of attack). If you push the yoke or control column away from you the plane pitches down and starts to dive.The vetrical speed thumbwheel on the autopilot of a Boeing 737 is arranged so if it is pushed up (away from you) the plane starts to descend.The throttles don't control the altitude but only the speed. Propeller pitch is a different thing but used in conjunction with the throttles.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 03:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: tekfan on May 27, 2011, 02:30:58 pmThanks for pointing this out. I am sure you know what you are talking about but if you have ever flown a real airplane on a final approach then you'd know that you control IAS with yoke (pitch) and rate of descent with throttle/prop pitch.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 05:11:49 pm
content: As a professional engineer who has been involved in literally HOURs of discussion on this subject I find the answer very easy.What did your customer specify? (If not specified, put it on the diagonal in the most inaccessible place commensurate with any regulations you have to meet and charge them extra when they want it moved)Neil

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 06:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on May 27, 2011, 05:11:49 pmI love your style

author: Ferroto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2011, 09:05:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2011, 11:44:30 amI would imagine someone would be red faced if they screwed that one up.