Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:10:38 am
content: QuoteIn Oct last year I mentioned I won a large (30KVA) UPS in a Pickles auction for $1. Lucky me I thought.This has turned into something of a drama. In my opinion because those still in control of the facility being gutted, are upset about the UPS sale price. Though they pretend their various ridiculous objections have nothing to do with that.My writeup of the saga is here:http://everist.org/NobLog/20180317_ups_drama.htmI'd like to hear any suggestions for how I can get these guys to drop their extortionate obstruction, and just let me come and pick up the unit.Probably the police in Albury would not be interested in turning up with me and instructing Benson Machines to just get out of the way. But I'll be phoning to ask them anyway.Oh and yes, every detail in that article is true. Not making anything up.(Previous mention:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-did-you-buy-today-post-your-latest-purchase!/msg1321392/#msg1321392)It's a Poweraware PW9305-30I-N-O. Web:https://powerquality.eaton.com/products-services/legacy/9305-info.asp?act=smtc&id=&key=&Quest_user_id=&leadg_Q_QRequired=&site=&menu=&cx=22&x=15&y=11

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:18:18 am
content: I strongly doubt any of the people that will reply are lawyers,The strongest case you can place for it is that if a reserve was not set, any price is acceptable.I would say you would have to follow it up with the auctioneer as I presume they accepted your money for there services, (there would probably have been a $30 fee on top of your dollar) As it was auctioned, you won the auction, and would have paid the fee under the assumption the item could be collected.Its never a case of an item not being as described, or not being functional, and you would likely have to read the terms and conditions of the auction house, but I suspect that if an item is auctioned, with no reserve, there is an assumption they want it gone.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:27:17 am
content: IMHO their requirement that a licensed electrician with insurance is doing the disconnect is a very valid one for many reasons. In this case I'd probably hire an electrician myself and go along to move the UPS. Their offer to arrange that for you includes some profit for them ofcourse. They just don't want people making a bigger mess of the building and damaging the building.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:27:55 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on March 18, 2018, 10:18:18 amTrue.QuoteYou really need to read the (rather long, I'm afraid) article to understand the nuances. The auction was not like ebay, but is not in question. I definitely own the item. But am not being allowed access to pick it up.Really I'm asking what others think of the excuses Benson Machines are making, for why not. I think they are utter rubbish, verging on extortion, ie illegal. Others may think them reasonable - or disagree and suggest what I can do to get them to stop this bullshit.Anyone who hasn't read through the article won't understand the situation, so won't be able to usefully comment.

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:40:28 am
content: If you got it cheap, just hire a sparky and get it out.I would not let anyone that's no qualified pull anything out of my property......the risk of litigation these days is way to highGive them reasonable notice, and if they don't comply, take your paperwork to the court and start the ball rolling for recovery of the item/s you now own.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:47:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 18, 2018, 10:27:17 amI would agree, except that it must already be safely isolated. Had to have been, for removal of the batteries.Just needs an eyes-on by me, that the main supply breaker to the UPS really is locked out. And their pretending they 'need to trace wiring' is bare-faced lying - their staff maintained the factory. They know which breaker it is. To be sure, just set the UPS bypass switch on the wall in the UPS room to bypass (sending power directly to the Net server outlets in the adjoining room) and flip the breaker on momentarily with a voltalert next to the cable.Worst case, I could hire an electrician in Albury for half an hour, to stand there and do nothing while I remove the UPS. Or he just does the removal of the 5-wire 3-phase supply cable then leaves the rest to me.But since it's ALREADY isolated, I don't see how they can insist on that. The significance is, that I'm as usual poor. Just the petrol to Albury and back is a stretch.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:55:20 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 18, 2018, 10:47:07 amI would have also thought that would have had to have been stated, before you purchased it. If they realised it needs to be disconnected by a licensed electrician, they should have to cover the cost.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 11:03:54 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on March 18, 2018, 10:55:20 amYes! I think this too. Stated in my article. The auction listing terms are binding on sale. There were no such requirements listed. While for other machines like CNC lathes they did list provisions and charges.I'm glad someone else agrees. Now I want to see if others can see this too. Considering taking this to small claims court to get an order against Benson. No lawyers required.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 11:13:47 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 18, 2018, 11:03:54 amI'd be careful because this can easely go both ways. Benson can simply agree it is your UPS but since the UPS is still connected to a building they are responsible for they require any modifications made to that building to be performed by qualified people.You might be better off cutting your losses. At some point the building will need to be vacated and the UPS tossed out. What might be an option is to write 'property of -your name here- and a telephone number' on the outside. Hopefully the person charged with tossing it out will call you.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 11:25:13 am
content: Considering the value of the item vs. what you paid, the cost of hiring a local electrician doesn't seem like being that big of a deal.I didn't read through all details but seems like they could easily have turned it off at the breaker to remove batteries, but if removal of the unit itself ( and leaving wiring safe) means going into an electrical box and disconnecting wires, and local laws require that to be done by a licensed electrician then seems like they are just complying with local regs.Bear in mind that if you chose to abandon it, first check the auction terms in case there are clauses concerning storage or disposal costs.If it's the case that at some time power to the whole building will be cut off, then just tell them to let you know when that happens and you will come and collect then.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 12:17:43 pm
content: Have you considered contacting the auction company to see what they think of the matter?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 12:20:57 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2018, 11:25:13 amI'd like to emphasize this. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out there is such a clause.QuoteBut any work on the wiring would still need to be carried out by a certified electrician.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 12:29:42 pm
content: I'm thinking the transfer switch on the wall is the issue here, the UPS is disconnected there (or at least switched off). Removing the switch itself, means tracing all the cabling from it.I wouldn't bother with the transfer switch, not worth the time/expense/mess.Just tell you're coming to collect the UPS on xx/xx/2018 xx:xx with electrician (license number 1234567). And you'll both have current Workers Comp. please ensure the office door is unlocked for us.We won't be taking the transfer switch so as to not leave any exposed wiring.No need to write your life's story. Don't leave them an out, if he argues ask if next week would be better. Waste his time by sending him a full OHS removing UPS etc.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 12:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 18, 2018, 12:20:57 pmHave you ever been inside a large industrial site under demolition? I have.There's a point somewhere between 'working site' and 'wreckage' where such rules become moot. I could tell an amusing story about a large establishment in Sydney, where the demolition company had just some heavy wrecking machinery and operators for them, so could not deal with things like heavy copper cables and busbars. Since these just become hopeless tangles when bulldozers are applied. But they were contractually required to not put copper in landfill. It wasn't economical to employ someone specialized to remove the copper first. And so there was a requirement for a very unofficial involvement. It was fun and lucrative.This just makes me laugh even harder at Benson's ideas. But sadly that episode can't be used as a lever here. Ha ha, unless I can make contact with the demolition company before they begin, and they have a similar need. But that's too iffy to leave as the only path.Quote from: Nusa on March 18, 2018, 12:17:43 pmYes. First on my list of Monday chores. I didn't pursue such details before because I wasn't in a position to go get it. Now I am.Quote from: station240 on March 18, 2018, 12:29:42 pmIt sure is! To me anyway. I'm not getting the UPS just to play with, I have an application. And will need such an isolation switch.Btw, it might be an actual switch as in the diagram, but is more likely some contactors and control logic. Makes no difference to the external wiring.Don't want to even think of what it would cost to buy a new one.Also it's actually easiest to disconnect just the supply cable at that point, since that must be done as 'potentially live'. After it's removed, and a quick visual check that all the other cables do just go to wall outlets in the adjoining room, everything gets much quicker.See pic below of how I think the setup almost certainly is. To be checked onsite.QuoteProblems: HOW to arrange one day (hour?) workers comp for myself? I am not having much luck in finding out how to do that.Not that I would be able to afford it I'm sure, or that I intend to do this anyway. I refuse, it's too stupid. Unless it was like $20.This one thing I'm hoping to hear from someone who's done this before. How does one get short term, minimal 'workers comp'?As for the electrician - I likely can't afford this. I'm retired, I currently live on less than $100 a week. Temporary situation, not easily fixed. You don't want to know the details, and it's absolutely certainly not like anything you've ever heard of before. Unless some Albury electrician would give half an hour for $50 (unlikely) it's not possible.QuoteI don't know what that would look like. But I think I would be wasting a lot of my time, writing it. And he'd just bin it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 02:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 18, 2018, 12:20:57 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 03:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 18, 2018, 12:40:07 pmProbably but until then the building has to stay a safe work environment. BTW I did not get to the part of the story where it says the building is going to be demolished.Don't you have any friends who might want to help you out?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 03:06:45 pm
content: In an auction I participated last year, the terms mentioned a very specific timeframe for removal of winning items under the penalty of having to pay disposal fees that were quite hefty.I am not entirely sure if there is such thing in this auction, but since your initial discussion was opened by asking for an exception, that may not have helped smooth your case. I am not sure how Australia operates, but in the US it wouldn't be too difficult (nor expensive) to rent a truck and collect the item. They are most probably holding you on to that and want to release the item on their terms.The terms don't seem to specify the requirements for removal, therefore you have a case there, especially given it seems to be sold as an individual item. However, if there is a more general terms and conditions that states any fixed installation item must follow any local regulations for disconnection and removal, they will have a strong case here - especially due to the fact the item is still connected to a breaker switch with potential risk of fatality.In this particular section of your text there are lots of "should", "would", "likely", which also don't help much your case, especially since you were allowed to look at the item in situ before the auction and (supposedly) had access to the employees responsible for the maintenance of the item. A statement from the employees about the requirements for removal would have been great, but that is gone now.Focusing on the current situation, I would then focus my attention to actually who pays for the licensed electrician.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 04:57:51 pm
content: Afraid you may have painted yourself into a corner here.a) Mentioned illness (bad cold and bacterial infection) - now they wonder if you are 100% well enough to manhandle this thing.b) Complaining about getting your Subaru and trailer capable of the trip - now they wonder if you are going to show upReading between the lines, they could just be saying "please send someone else to collect this".As for the insurance stuff, all I can suggest is to ask your bank. My searching on google just shows insurance as one of those "tell us what you need, and we'll look up the price". One information site said it starts from $200 a year, so $20 for a month might be possible.You'd still need an electrician, given the factory put a lot of people out of work, maybe you can get a local cheap.Let me know if you need advice on how to get this mass o' metal into a trailer, that I can help you with.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 06:00:55 pm
content: To be quite blunt I think the primary issue is that the way you have communicated with them makes you look unprofessional - mentioning stories about car problems, details of illnesses, comments about the selling price etc.They are used to dealing with professional equipment dealers, movers etc. who know what they are doing and can be trusted to get the job done without killing themselves or damaging the building. Your communications will have put them in "better cover our asses in case this guy's an idiot" mode.I'd bet that if you'd have just shown up there promptly with a truck and electrican's tool belt, you'd have been able to go in, disconnect and get it moved before anyone had a chance to check anything.Bottom line is they want to clear the site with minimum hassle to them. If you're physically there with the means to get the stuff out the door it's unlikely they'd do anything to prevent it.It's easer to ask forgiveness after than permission before.TBH I think you should just cut your losses now, citing their failure to notify conditions prior to the sale, and not enter into any further communication.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 06:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 18, 2018, 12:40:07 pmWell, the site is not yet under demolition and the auctioner was tasked to empty the building before the demo crew shows up, therefore this is moot at this point as you don't know if there is a penalty associated with leaving one piece of equipment behind.Quote from: TerraHertz on March 18, 2018, 12:40:07 pmIn your situation I would forget the switch, unless you can get in good terms with the auctioner. You auctioned for one item and may be perceived as trying to get something else for nothing.Quote from: TerraHertz on March 18, 2018, 12:40:07 pmThat is the point you seem to be missing. You will have to look professional and "trouble-free" to the auctioner, otherwise I suspect the barriers will keep mounting and you will have to cut even higher losses.

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 09:59:33 pm
content: Not sure why they would isolate it to remove the batteries...........anyway whatever happens now if you walk away from it , you will be up for the cost of removal, which includes the quoted fee they told you about.I deal with Pickles all the time and have never found them difficult to deal with, but you have to read the terms and conditions of the sale in the catalogue completely and if there is any doubt, ask.There is a passage in the Cat about removal of electrical goods, and you may need a sparky to disconnect the item.For the record, I have seen this exact thing happen before with a purchaser that tried to abandon there purchase of an old lathe they also won for 1 dollar.......which is fair enough.....they could have sold it to someone else to pick it up or include it into the next lot to get rid of it.....Sorry mate, IMHO you are sunk.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:52:14 pm
content: I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but have you considered to ask Pickles if their preferred electrician can be contacted to do the job and at what price?If it's not too expensive, organize to be there on the dayand ask the electrician beforehand what's the best method to get the item out and away from the premises,he may have an easy way to do it from experience,and you can take your time with it outside loading it up properlyFWIW I scored a 300 kilogram monster a while back,agreed on a pickup day and time,confirmed it first thing on the day again, then rocked up with a hired 3 ton truck with 500kg rated rear lifter thingie,and yes I could have done it with a trailer and risked all sorts of unforeseen hassles along the way with such a cumbersome heavy load,but a one day truck hire is not that expensive, especially if you pre-plan to use it for other stuff tooAnyways, when I turned up they had simply cut off both electric feed cables at the switchboard and left about 2 metres still connected to the device and cable tied them to the sides= good show, someone was thinking about the next install!one of the gents helped me heave it on the lifter, I did a quick tie down to secure it and slowly and gently -rolled- the truck out of their driveway and onto the street,there I took my time securing the load properly for the long drive backIt can be easier than you think with large PITA gear, just don't let it go south when dealing with OHS clipboard flexing heros...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 07:11:26 am
content: QuoteYep, in the US, they would have cut the cables with limb loppers, hacksawed any bolts, then moved it with furniture straps and dumped it outside. People don't always treat things nicely...be careful what you wish for...Trust me, I've seen stuff that's obviously been brutally removed from it's location because they want it gone and don't care.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 08:10:23 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 18, 2018, 10:10:38 amYou can ask however you can already probably guess their response. It's not that they aren't interested, rather your issue is a civil matter. Police don't get involved in civil matters such as disputes over property or money.Personally, if it's a simply matter of picking up the unit (no disconnection required), I would completely disregard anything Pickles have told you, arrange a date to pick it up and just go and do it, deal with any issues that arise in person.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 08:33:53 am
content: The way site clearances work is that it would cost the owner $500 to remove and dispose of an item. If they auction it for $1, it's not because they are trying to make money, but save themselves $500, because removal is now the responsibility of the new owner. If you buying an item "ex works", you are responsible for additional costs, you can't expect the seller to throw in extras just because you are a nice guy.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 10:07:02 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 19, 2018, 08:33:53 am..but if you show up and act professionally, and then talk to the people on the ground there, it is entirely likely that they will let you have stuff that hasn't been sold, dive the dumpster etc.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 12:32:20 pm
content: Monday: sorry, no news to report. The morning got chewed (apart from updating the article a bit), then Monday afternoons are when I do regular care stuff for my aged mum. So, discussion with Pickles tomorrow.A few points to clarify:* 'Storage fees'. My very first inquiry post-auction was with Pickles, regarding that issue. There's a clause on their auction sheets about potential fees for 'storage' if items not picked up on time. They say that's a standard form for their usual auctions, where they actually hold the goods. This auction was different - the goods are still on site in Albury (600 Kms from Sydney) and the storage fees don't apply. Also Benson have said there are no storage fees.There were two classes of items - small miscellaneous items, that had a fixed pickup period. Only because Benson don't want to be bothered with that stuff while they do the _other_ class of items. That are huge machines, which they have to decommission and move out of the factory to load on buyer's transport. And they charge thousands for that service - fair enough.I expect when I go there, the offices will still have a lot of junk lying around, that didn't sell or no one picked up.I'm curious to see whether the server racks went. May not have.The UPS is a grey area in between those two classes. Located in the offices, big and heavy but still one-man doable, in a room by itself. They OK'd with no objection, leaving it sitting there till I was ready. They listed it in with the small stuff, but have OK'd it being picked up later during the months it is taking them to shift the big machines. That's all fine.* Auctioneer - Pickles in Sydney just handled the online auction, they have nothing to do with the actual site in Albury. All site matters are handled by Benson Machines. Benson are the ones being awkward.* Whether I turned them off initially - no, they started talking about removal fees right from my first contact. They wouldn't talk about anything else. It's their sole focus. They want to make some money out of the thing, and don't accept that an auction sale price is final and they goofed by not specifying such fees in the listing.* Moving it - I'm perfectly capable of that. Have everything needed to get it up, out and onto a trailer. No problem at all. I've done this sort of thing a fair bit.* Cable chopping - ha ha, yeah if I was in a rush to get it out, that's what I'd do too. Voltalert, OK it's dead, chop. Wire cutters, insulated handle tree loppers, ratcheting cable cutters for big stuff, or angle grinder for steel armored.If I can force them to do the disconnect, I'm pretty sure that's what they'll do.If I do the disconnect I'd be nice, do it professionally, and make remaining wiring safe.* Friends to help - to do what? A two day round trip to Albury, during the working week, and while there according to Benson they must have workers compo insurance. To help me wheel the UPS down a short corridor? Heh. I'm old but not that old.* Electrician - Already have a list of Albury electrician phone numbers to call, if it comes to that. But I'd rather try the small claims court order path first. On principle.* The fate of the empty factory - I'm just guessing demolition. Hunch based on location, surrounding urban development, lack of industry in Albury, etc. I'll be trying to find out for sure.Wish it was closer to Sydney. It's going to be a ace urbex location if it passes through an abandonment stage.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 12:54:56 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 19, 2018, 12:32:20 pmUnless the terms state otherwise, your contract is with the auctioneer, Benson are effectively agents acting for them.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 01:33:22 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 19, 2018, 12:54:56 pmActually, the original auction pages said something like "Pickles, acting on behalf of ASI International" (the company that owns the factory.) Benson are contracted to ASI to actually operate the place - and now to dismantle it.So... to what extent the auction item listings are binding, and on who, remains to be seen. This is why I need to talk to Pickles next.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 01:43:41 pm
content: If you talk to Pickles do yourself a big favour and don't mention your illness, how you feel treated unfairly, etc, etc. It really isn't relevant and it will confuse the hell out of the person you talk to. Just say you are ready to pick the UPS up but it is still connected to mains wiring and ask when it is going to be disconnected. If they don't know when the UPS is going to be disconnected then tell them to contact you when it is disconnected. Make it THEIR problem first in a polite way and see how the ball rolls from there.

author: zzattack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 04:05:30 pm
content: I understand the reasoning behind their uncooperative attitude. You've surely done your due diligence and I have little doubt you'd be able to transport the UPS by yourself with no assistance from the factory maintainer.Let's look at this manner from mr. Philips' standpoint. Your first email starts with a page's worth of text irrelevant to scheduling the pickup including an outside link to a blogpost (I guess, haven't clicked. Who would?), something about a Spaceturn machine, and an anecdote about former employment. Put frankly: what could mr. Philips possibly care?The mail then continues with actual questions about the UPS. I suppose that's fine, but really you should expect 'wysiwig' for every auction that has no reserve set or just a low price in general. You're not entitled to a hands-on demonstration or guidance in using it, so to speak. Certainly I wouldn't expect you to receive any substantive answers to them. And to close, you a) ramble on about that spaceturn machine, b) nag about removal fee's that you find high, c) put an inventory question in there, d) some mild berating on them not setting reserves and questioing their auctioning policy, and e) another question about another entirely unrelated auction.If mr. Philips is indeed busy as he claims, I totally understand his dread for writing up a reply to you. The email you sent announces to me that dealing with you is going to be a massive hassle. I would expect you to be the type of 'customer' who'll be sending support-type questions for months after the actual sale. Quite a pain when you're simply trying to get rid of some inventory and not anything they'd be looking forward to. Am I surprised by the email you got in return? Absolutely not! Sure, you may assume they're trying to make you abandon the whole thing by coming up with the bullshit fees. There's even some merit to the whole litigation part of it.Your reply lacks any form of tact; you instantly switch over to attack mode. You claim to know perfectly well what's involved in the removal. Implicitly that says you feel they do not, which could be perceived as hostile by mr. Philips. Then, "unreasonable", "confirm (...) at no cost", "I'll remind you (...) no note of any charges", "you wish in hindsight", "conditions of sale", "don't think that (...) I take this lightly".You basically announce that you've paid them $1 and you're going to milk that so hard and be such a goddamn pain about it they'll wish the wrecking ball cranes came in yesterday.The whole blogpost just takes it another few steps further by vilifying the guy with, your words, "rapacious attitudes" and "unbelievable stupidity".

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 07:19:17 am
content: Speaking with Pickles today went well. Their rep thinks the extra fees and conditions are not viable. They are going to see if they can convince Benson to release the UPS per the auction conditions, ie none.Ha ha. I wish I'd spoken to Pickles first, right after learning of Benson's intention to obstruct. Because the Pickles guy says they would simply have withheld the *entire* auction takings from the Albury company, till they complied with the listing terms. But since the money has been transferred months ago, their leverage is greatly lessened.At the time it never occurred to me that would even be possible. But, I guess my transport problems would have killed that very nice idea anyway.The auction details said 'for pickup arrangements, contact Paul Philips at Benson. So that's what I did.Re the length of my first reply to Mr Philips - everything spaceturn lathe related is business - I'd bid on one, been beaten, but the machine passed in. I expect all five of them failed to reach reserve. Philips had in his very first contact offered me a chance to still buy one. I was politely letting him know why I probably could not. Asking if the loading fee was negotiable was part of that. I could have just said 'no thanks' I suppose.Benson have been maintaining the machines for years, and I thought he might have been interested to read a potential 'hobbyist' buyer's observations on the machines. Just being friendly at that point. I didn't expect any reply to a lot of that.As for my combative attitude, sequencing is important. Sure, I'm pissed off. I get that way when (after!) someone tries to extort nearly $1000 dollars from me. I suspect you would be too. I was polite up until he started making bullshit, lying claims about the difficulty of disconnecting it. And was evenrelativelypolite afterwards.The web doc was written after I contacted the guy in Albury just recently, and received the same obstruction, making it clear there was no way round it. What's the point of pretending? I've tried polite, it makes no difference.zzattackQuoteHeh. You do realize that after it's clear he wasn't going to agree to just release the UPS, the length and detail of my emails is deliberate strategy?QuoteNo, implying I know he's lying. Which he is. I *intended* it to clearly imply he's lying. Yes, I'm being hostile. He's lying to support an extortionate demand for nearly $1000. By that time there's no use pretending friendship.QuoteDon't be ridiculous. There is nothing they can do in the way of support. I'm perfectly aware I'm on my own with that.What I wish to hear from Benson/Mr Philips is "The UPS is isolated, and access to the Albury office to remove the UPS will be available on ~date~." After that, not a word.Don't even expect to be able to get anything useful from the UPS manufacturer.Anyway, currently waiting to see if Pickles' attempt has any effect. Who knows? In the meantime looking into NSW Small Claims Court procedures, trying to get an idea of the likely costs. The websites are a tarbaby.Yes, I'm the kind of person who'd rather pay a few hundred to win in a way that humiliates the opponent, than pay many hundreds to an extortionist, ie letting them win.PS. Today received a letter announcing an old family friend died recently. Sigh.Everyone grows old in a foreign country.

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 07:28:52 am
content: You just did it again !! what has your PS got to do with this thread !! condolences by the wayI do tend to agree with ZZattack though..........Sorry mate but you do seem like a hassle to deal with....... what you should have done was what you did today instead of going out with all barrels blazing on the original owner, who no doubt has more to do that sort out a $1 sale that may end him up in a lot more trouble than its worth..........this is just my opinion though

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 04:20:17 pm
content: Get all your original ducks in a row, then apply for an order for them to release the UPS.i’d probably go the modern equivalent of the ‘chamber magistrate’ (i.e. VCAT etc) getting an order that allows you to collect the goods on a specific date 7/14 days.They may add a rider that police are in attendance to quell any obstruction by the seller.You onLy get one chance, don’t screw it up.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 07:39:09 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on March 20, 2018, 04:20:17 pmIndeed.I'll be contacting Pickles again tomorrow, to see if that's going anywhere.In the meantime preparing a 'letter of demand' to send Benson if Pickles get nowhere. It's necessary to have done that before initiating legal action.And yeah, it's much more polite than my web article. Brief and to the point.Just because I _can_ write pages, doesn't mean I'm compulsive about it.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 11:49:13 am
content: It WAS 1$, how can you fuck that up so bad?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 01:25:58 pm
content: Quote from: senso on March 21, 2018, 11:49:13 amHey?They started talking about extra costs to disconnect it, from my very first contact. I've been going over my notes, and he was doing that in the absolutely first phone call. He just hadn't come up with a figure yet. I don't think it's fair to say I f*cked it up. Benson f*cked themselves, by not putting any reserve price on an auction starting at $1. Then made themselves look like jerks by not wearing it, and lying to justify their demands.Anyway, we'll see. Worst case, I'm out by nothing. Best case, I have a nice big UPS for $1 (plus a lot of petrol.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 09:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on March 21, 2018, 01:25:58 pmWorst case you didn't read all the fineprint and are indeed supposed to pay for disconnecting the UPS. I'd be careful with threatening with legal action. You simply can't rely on what someone has told you over the phone. Before doing anything else get a written statement with a signature from Pickles that you are not supposed to pay to disconnect the device you have bought.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 06:22:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 21, 2018, 09:17:37 pmDon't worry, that's not the case. The written statement is a good idea though. I'll ask the Pickles rep tomorrow.Anyway, Pickles are being very helpful and friendly, dealing with the holding company above Benson, on my behalf.There are further leverage efforts against Benson ready to go if Pickles' efforts don't bear fruit. Stuff that has to be done before taking it to small claims court. I've not 'threatened' Benson with that, I'll just proceed as soon as all else has obviously failed.One worry is that apparently Benson have only a few more weeks onsite work, shipping out the big machines. What happens to the UPS after that if they've continued to stall? I've asked, hope to find out soon.---------------Edit to add something unrelated...Dammit, I seem to be a SNAFU-magnet at the moment. How's this for ridiculous?Trying to buy a tube of silicone-based high vacuum grease, from a US ebay seller. They ship worldwide, no problems, but I had it sent to my US reshipper since I thought I'd combine it with other packages. But ended up needing to resend it as is. Then this happened...What is the problem with sending this package?03/20/2018Hi, I have twice requested mailout of this package DY. Everything seems fine, but then it goes back to awaiting shipment, I get an email that I have a shipito notification, I log on to your site, can't find any notification. Just the item DY sitting there.Can you tell me what is wrong, please? According to the shipping page, it is OK to go via airmail, which I selected. I have sufficient funds in my account.----------Shipito SupportWhat is the problem with sending this package?03/20/2018Hello GuyPlease always remember to check your notifications on the upper right hand corner of your account. You were notified by the warehouse of the following:This notification is to inform you that your mailout for package(s) DY has been cancelled by our admin for the following reason: (Vacuum Grease) We regret to inform you that we have just learned that the parcel you requested be shipped contains flammable liquid or essential oil which cannot be shipped with any carrier. Your mail out request has been cancelled. Therefore, you must decide between the following two options how you would like Shipito, LLC to dispose of the items in question: 1. Place a special request to have the specified items/parcel disposed. 2. Have the restricted item(s) returned to the merchant. To do this please submit a special request with a prepaid return shipping label and we will return the parcel on your behalf. The special request fee will be $5 USD and there will also be a processing fee of $2 USD applied. If you have any questions or concerns about shipping items in the future, please refer to our website for a listing of restricted and prohibited items or contact our team for additional assistance In an effort to uphold our customs compliance standards, Shipito’s prohibited and restricted items list may be more expansive than individual country or carrier laws.Best regards-------------Mailout of my package DY03/21/2018"contains flammable liquid or essential oil"No it does not. It's a very thick, silicone high vacuum grease, which is specifically designed to be NOT flammable, NOT an oil, and NOT produce any gasses under reduced pressure. It's very very inert.The material safety data sheet is here:https://carleton.ca/mae/wp-content/uploads/Dowcorn-High-Vacuum-Grease.pdfIt's far less flammable than the box it's in. I think you must be mislead by the word 'grease'. The only similarity to normal greases is that it's in a tube, and sticky.Do you ban silicone glue and sealants? It's the same kind of stuff as those.Please let me know whether this sorts out the issue, or not.Best regards,Guy--------------Mailout of my parcel DY03/21/2018OK, I found the 'notifications'. Couldn't see it before.Further to this, I checked your prohibited goods lists. The material is an inert silicone jell-like compound. It is not a liquid, not an oil, is not flammable, combustible or hazardous, and not perishable. It does not flow if spilled. It has the consistency of cold butter. It will not out-gas under low pressure. (That's the whole point of it - it does not contaminate vacuum equipment with any volatiles under vacuum.)It is not an ITAR regulated item.It's literally as inert as a material can be, while still acting as a flexible sealant.The ebay seller ships worldwide, including to Australia. I had just expected to be combining it with other items. Till realizing my shipito paid subscription has expired, so had to send individually.Bought here:https://www.ebay.com/itm/DOW-CORNING-Silicone-High-Vacuum-Grease-976V-Stopcock/271160260617See attached material safety sheet. ( Dowcorn-High-Vacuum-Grease.pdf )It's also quite expensive and hard to find.I've altered the customs declaration to remove the word 'grease' that maybe triggers your ban.Please let me know your conclusion.Regards,Guy-----------------Shipito SupportSafety Data Sheet for package DY03/21/2018Hello Guy,Your inquiry has been submitted to the warehouse for review.Thank you------------------Ha ha ha! Because silicone high vacuum grease is ... a fire risk?After this I tried to burn some. (I have an old tube of it.) It _barely_ can be made to burn in a direct flame. Self-extinguishes. Even burning it does not flow, just converts to an ashy remnant.OK, shipito have to be careful. Fine. Urrgh.

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 08:32:17 am
content: Serious ?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 08:41:44 am
content: Hopefullythe MSDS will ease their concern.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2018, 02:36:35 am
content: Heh. Victory with the vacuum grease:QuoteThe UPS story is progressing very well too, touch wood. I'll have more news next week.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 10:26:38 am
content: OK, I have been informed I will be able to pick up the UPS shortly after Easter. They will disconnect the equipment at no cost to me. Also I found that personal accidental injury insurance is actually very cheap. So took out a policy for myself, that satisfies the site administrator's concerns.The change in their position regarding the nearly $1000 extra cost Benson originally wanted, was thanks to the very kind, helpful and sensible intervention of management in both Pickles online auctions, and the holding company that is effectively the employer of Benson Machines.I'll be informed of a date for pickup once the site electrician has done the disconnect. Which they mention they have discovered can be performed at a small fraction of their original estimate.Looks like I'll only be dealing with Albury site staff, who in my experience are practical and helpful guys.So, hopefully the next time I'll post about this here, will be a 30KVA UPS teardown. Touch wood.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 12:05:05 am
content: Good news mateStocking up tomorrow on popcorn and beer for the 30KVA UPS teardownbefore the Easter shoppers hoard the lot

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 03:24:38 am
content: 'Shortly' is likely to be at least the 2nd week after Easter. So maybe hold off on the popcorn just yet, or it will be stale by then.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 03:36:54 am
content: We'll just make a fresh batch whenever we run out....

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 03:33:55 pm
content: Success! Picked it up in Albury and drove it back to Sydney on Tuesday.Teardown thread here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teardown-poweraware-pw9305-3phase-415v-ups-30kva-21kw/