Kiss Analog butthurt over Dave getting free stuff - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Kanbus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2023, 07:50:07 pm
content: Here is the video where Eddie rants about Dave's video where he claiming Tek scopes is worth the price:In the video Eddie also talks about the other major test equipment manufactures and why their prices are "pure bullshit", don't reflect their real value and should come down in price.In the video he claim he doesn't "owe" anything to the company's that send him free stuff, but insinuate that Dave does because he gets stuff that cost more than the stuff he get's.Some points from the video:He doesn't want to pay Tek prices because they develop and implement educational stuff in their scopes, and as an educator he doesn't want students tolearn from these tools, but use "real equipment" in stead.He had engineers with masters degrees from other countries, working for free at the company he worked for, and taught them to make PSU's for fighterjets. They was not as good as him and he got promoted to engineer before he finished school. Quote: "I know what Im talking about"This I don't understand at all: He says they (Tek scopes I assume) doesn't have industrial grade components inside, but commercial grade. But then hesay's some might have, but he haven't seen it.Tek scopes - I assume again since he never really specifies - is not made in USA, only some of it.When he buys test equipment he doesn't care about supply chains and doesn't look up how they source components. It is only fx. when stuff goes into anaircraft it might come into play.He doesn't care about the life span of the equipment either. If the manufacture no longer offers the product, he'll just buy something better ten years later.He says people doesn't know what they talk about. Then he holds up a fluke and calls it the worst multimeter, and people are stupid blowing their moneyon it.This is in the first 22 minutes of the video. It's an hour long, and i can't write it all up, but it continues in the same manner.I have seen lots of he's reviews of cheap Chinese test equipment. he's especially fond of Kaiweets. This one for example is a review of pen type multimeter:andFrom my watching he seems to seldom go over much more than the claimed specs and test some Ohms and voltages. No real use cases.On this one the only real criticism is that the board is visible through battery compartment and the display is not the best.He measures a 10 Ohm resistor, gets a wrong reading in the slowest continuity mode I've seen in a long time. he's only comment is "that's interesting".You can of course buy it of the affiliate link he has.My thought's on it all is that he doesn't really present the facts, but only talks from own experience. When he reviews products he "forgets" the negatives.The man is fortunate enough to live in a first world country, and it sounds like he doesn't appreciate that the top tier test and measurement equipment manufactures is from the country he lives in, creates well paying jobs and THEIR technology trickles down for hes favourite Chinese company to copy.I don't work in the T&M industry, and don't have first hand experience, but for me it sounds like he's the one bullshitting.I don't hate Chinese T&M equipment. I both have and had some. The stuff i have I consider to be fine and it fills my needs, the stuff I had was either so bad it broke or i just got rid of it.What's your thoughts?

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2023, 08:32:15 pm
content: Scopes are expensive because development costs are enormous and the quantities are relatively small. And apparently, engineers are still going to buy them even at $20k a pop.One doesn't need an MBA to figure this out.Considering how much shit Dave has given various manufacturers over the years for skimping on components and cutting corners, I wouldn't exactly call him a favorable reviewer. But his attitude is exactly what makes him trustworthy in the eyes of us, the buyers of test equipment, so manufacturers will keep on sending him stuff to review/scrutinize.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2023, 08:33:53 pm
content: Dave may well have set some sort of YouTube template, which other EEs might follow but grudgingly.... over 90% of the electronics videos I watch I fail to complete - mostly because they are vague narratives not applicable to the student / hobbyist.teardowns, unboxing, and rants need to be especially well made/considered to cut through.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2023, 08:50:15 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on November 19, 2023, 08:32:15 pmAgreed. The amount of software running in a modern day DSO is mind boggling. For the mid range ones ($2k to $20k) you are likely talking 5 to 15 working years worth of development time. The hardware cost is peanuts in comparison to the software. So much so that you basically get a universal piece of hardware which is made more or less functionalby means of software options nowadays.Where it comes to Dave's videos being more popular is because Dave simply is more easy / pleasant to watch & listen to. From Dave you get a consistent story and he doesn't seem to need a script to do that. OTOH the Kiss Analog guy is tiresome to watch & listen to. So he must be a good engineer

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2023, 10:34:35 pm
content: If you designed / participated in designing a modern scope, you would actually realize that their market price is ridiculously low.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2023, 11:08:20 pm
content: Who's "Eddie"? Never heard of him.I remember "Eddie the Eagle" from the Olympics and "Flo and Eddie".Perhaps I'm too old.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2023, 11:34:30 pm
content: He has a hard time delineating what he knows about and what his opinions, assumptions, and analysis are. It's not ideal to put it mildly.

author: Kanbus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2023, 11:55:59 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on November 19, 2023, 08:32:15 pmYes. That's why the whole video just rubs me the wrong way. He claims to be an engineer but overlook perhaps the most significant cost.Everyone will probably acquire som bias when given free stuff, but dave in my opinion is one of the best at balancing it.Company's can only win by showing their customers that they'r willing to fix stuff after criticism. Like the glowing V-regulator in a piece of Rigol gear. Or was it Siglent? Point is they fixed it.Quote from: armandine2 on November 19, 2023, 08:33:53 pmMore should follow though.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 01:41:02 am
content: Eddie gets free stuff too, including from Kaiweets but also some higher-end stuff, just not as high-end and as much as Dave gets.Eddie did a Fluke rant video a year or two ago, that Dave answered, and then Eddie responded to that one. Eddie owns several Flukes, but like many he feels like they're not a good value for most people. Dave actually agreed with him for the most part, but explained that it's not about the features of the meter, more about the brand and consistency through the years. Especially around government/defense contracts, which Eddie is quite familiar with since that's where he's spent much if not most of his career. It sounds like this scope rant is just a continuation of that same theme -- for hobbyists these brands really don't bring much value, and I have to say that I mostly agree with him. Don't get me wrong, I love all of my Fluke's, but I don't recommend them to hobbyists and amateurs unless they just want to have a Fluke for the brand. I've worked with but never owned a Tektronix or a Keysight scope, and honestly can't say that I ever would unless I just got a great deal on one. I'm perfectly happy with a Siglent. Although if I won the lottery, I'd probably spoil myself with a R&S just because I could.Eddie is actually a pretty accomplished power supply engineer by all accounts, but he comes across as a bit odd and socially awkward. He definitely has an awkward presence on his YT videos. Sometimes I cringe listening to him. But if you watch enough of his videos where he actually talks about design and theory versus product reviews, you can tell he knows what he's talking about -- he just doesn't speak or present himself very well.

author: Kanbus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 02:09:55 am
content: Veteran68Eddie dunking on people for blowing their own money while most of he's career is in government blowing the same people's money too

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 02:58:05 am
content: The perspective of people depending on public money more than others is for sure a bit different.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 01:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: Kanbus on November 19, 2023, 07:50:07 pmHe had posted me a few times about my meter tests confusing it with some sort of safety test. At one time he was reviewing books and I recommended the power supply bible which he later showed. Outside of that, I've not had any interactions with him. Seems like a nice enough guy.Most product reviews I have seen are just unboxing with maybe a few basic measurements. Many people reviewing them were clueless about part identification or they start to try and explain how some simple circuits work and fail. On the other hand, I found many of Dave's early DMM reviews very entertaining. I still watch when he makes a new one. Not for the technical merit, just for the fun of it. I appreciated that Dave would at least do some basic checks, like plugging the meters into the wall socket and running them through all their modes.In the end, there is endless content available. Rather than complain about specific channels, just find something you like. I doubt you will find many reviewers who are going to care what you have to say enough to change their format. So really, what's the point?

author: Kanbus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 03:37:00 pm
content: Have you seen the video Joe?I don't have any hopes that he will change anything, nor do I try to force him too.You're right, there is enough content out there to just pass on what's not interesting. I like your stuff for example. I have never complained about a Youtuber before, but this video just was too much. But I guess there is no real point or end goal.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 04:41:38 pm
content: Having used a few recent Tek scopes I'm not convinced they are worth the money compared to their Chinese competitors. That said, they might have improved, I last used an MDO3000 and whilst the RF functions were impressive the overall software package on the instrument was not that great.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 05:30:18 pm
content: Tek’s market dominance and heyday was during the large CRT era.Tek’s CRTs and video drive circuits were second to none. They were the pinnacle of engineering and black magic.But back to Kiss Analog’s video rant: my feeling is that he is actually jealous of Dave’s blog. He spends many minutes explaining all of his accomplishments, and attempting to put down Dave. All signs of jealousy.If Dave’s blog is more popular, there is a simple reason: Dave is far, far, FAR more enjoyable to watch and most importantly, to learn from. He spices up the conversation with witty remarks: “good enough for Australia”, “winner, winner, chicken dinner” and my personal fave “assembled by nude Swiss virgins”. All without losing track of the technical conversation.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 05:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: Kanbus on November 20, 2023, 03:37:00 pmI have not. I watched a few of his early videos when he first started out after he wrote me. I was curious to see what testing he was going to do. I haven't looked at what he has been up to since his book reviews.Working in the field, I really have no desire to watch videos about anything electronics related unless they are on a subject I know little about. Mostly I watch physics, astronomy, life science. I also follow a few channels on wooden sail boat restoration and steam engines. Of course, Guy Martin's channel. Dave's videos were an exception as I see the entertainment side.Quote from: Kanbus on November 20, 2023, 03:37:00 pmIf I watch my early content, I cringe. That's why I edit down videos so much now. Packing a week of testing into an hour or two is an art that I have yet to master.Quote from: Kanbus on November 20, 2023, 03:37:00 pmI get lots of complaints. Welcome to the world of YT.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 09:54:31 pm
content: I haven't watched the video for longer than 5 minutes.. as I then realized I don't have time to listen for 1hr to someones opinion.BUT, if we're talking about Tek bang/buck in the educational segment -- then I can probably see why they can be - or simply are - overpriced. For many use cases we shouldn't be paying for that.. but it also happens to be the cheapest scopes in Tek's line-up. So if you want to buy quality brand on a budget, then you're potentially paying for crap you don't need.I must say I'm somewhat amazed you can spend almost 2kEUR on a 2ch 200MHz Tek scope with a whopping 20kpts of memory.However, this is similar to one buying a Fluke DMM with Cat IV ratings and whatnot, and then only using it for low-voltage projects.Dave has done a blog on why Fluke DMMs are expensive, and when/why you would(n't) need one. I think this logic can be applied to all brands that build up a reputation from their continued legacy offerings: not in particular chasing bang/buck at every segment of the market. You're not the right customer. So going as far to say that any let alone all products are a bad deal, is cutting it a far too short IMO.For that reason, hobby or a small workshop may be ""fine"" equipped with Rigol scopes, Uni-T meters and JBC imitation irons, while a larger company has strict rules on which brands to buy.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 11:07:03 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on November 20, 2023, 05:30:18 pmTek went downhill when they were bought out by Danaher. Same is happening to Fluke, they haven't really done or made anything "new" since they were acquired by those scumbags. I'd take it a bit further and say that anything Danaher/Fortive touches turns to crap:Leica's microscopy divisionWellerPantone/X-Rite (yes, that was also them)...Basically, fuck Danaher/Fortive/Apex. And that's without getting into discussing Tek's software development practices.

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 12:39:54 am
content: I can't work out the guys surname, all I get is Eddy whohar here!! Anyone know his actual name? So, I think he is highly qualified and seems to know his stuff, just not very good at getting information across in a video. He often seems to get lost in what he's trying to explain then goes off on a tangent. Also quite opinionated, but both these traits are typical of engineering types, not all but typical. Anyway, I would have less of a clue how to make a YT vid so shouldn't pass comment, just glad that some do so I get to learn about stuff I didn't know existed.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 02:02:43 am
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on November 21, 2023, 12:39:54 amEddie Ahohttps://www.linkedin.com/in/eddie-aho/

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 02:54:02 am
content: Quote from: hans on November 20, 2023, 09:54:31 pmBig companies are also interested in value for money and do buy "low rent" brands. Oddly enough there are situations where a small shop is better of with just a higher end item (if they absolutely need some higher end capability, the rest is already "free") as there may not be demand for simultaneous use, where as a big company is more likely to have a diverse fleet of equipment that can be allocated/used as needed across the simultaneous tasks.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 09:08:31 am
content: Quote from: Someone on November 21, 2023, 02:54:02 amA little more and we have the same situation as in Hollywood no? People freelancing are only taken seriously if they are using RED or ARRI. If you are using for example an also capable but less expensive brand as the Z Cam you are not taken as a professional.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 05:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: HalFET on November 20, 2023, 11:07:03 pmHad to look Fortive up. All I can see is that their website is full of undiluted corporate bullshit. Using all the usual hollow but crowd-pleasing phrases: “Making the world stronger, safer and smarter.” “Though we’re spread around the globe, we’re united by a powerful continuous improvement mindset.”There were many more “gems” like these, but I felt that I would barf my lunch if I continued reading.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 08:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 21, 2023, 02:54:02 amYou ain't getting something like a Uni-T over the threshold of a large company, the reality is that you usually have an entire department dedicated to purchasing things and it's not uncommon they actually have a safety checklist for lab equipment.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 10:34:09 pm
content: Yes, but I don't get the whole point anyway. It's not aimed at large companies. The cost of a scope is a concern for hobbyists and maybe very small companies. Otherwise it's an insignificant investment in all expenses that have to be made.Why would you care about saving a few hundred bucks on some gear when the time spent by people to look for cheaper alternatives (with possibly problems looming after purchase) will cost maybe ten times that? It just makes no sense.One can't reason for a company as we would as an individual.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 10:45:39 pm
content: No way I am watching a video over an hour long to listen to some incoherent guy go around.If he can't tell me what he wants to tell me in ten minutes or less then, I'm sorry but I don't have the time.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 11:26:12 pm
content: Quote from: HalFET on November 21, 2023, 08:29:14 pmI have not seen anyone intervene from purchasing for safety reasons. Any of: preferred supplier, cost, delivery method, domestic vs international.Approvals chain is where the time is wasted, good bosses have found smooth ways to avoid that and fit for purpose stuff just gets bought. Cheap things like a Uni-T meter would disappear from oversight through low value or stuffing it within a larger order.Coming from experience of very large organisations that would happily put off brand equipment out in R&D. Some places might have rules, but even those that do can have people who ignore them (and then hide the evidence when it might be noticed).

author: ifonlyeverything
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 11:38:52 pm
content: From one Ramblin' Man to another, he would benefit greatly from a script or at least some bullet points on an index card.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 12:06:46 am
content: Quote from: ifonlyeverything on November 21, 2023, 11:38:52 pmThe funny thing is he HAS notes on a notebook in front of him. He just can’t stay on track. I think there may be some AD(H)D at play here.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 03:21:02 am
content: fuck cheap scopes at work its a total troll especially if you are prototyping you need the best of the best without glitches. the amount of back and forth a bad scope reading can generate is preposterous and it can make any engineer look like a blundering fool that is incapable of evaluating even the most simple matters.with the pay of engineers and how much voodoo they are expected to push and evaluate for clueless bureaucrats the scope price is absolutely justified. Sometimes you get 1 day to have to confidently give the answer to a question which can effect a quarter and a entire sales plan for people that make many millions every month and effect an entire work force.that means bandwidth, trigger, alias, interconnects need to be as good as they can make it. You will still make mistakes but it keeps it down, and there still will be triggering issues.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 09:18:19 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on November 22, 2023, 03:21:02 amThis goes for test equipment in general. If been in situations where a bug in a piece of B-brand equipment caused a couple of weeks of delay and impacted an important demo.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 09:28:40 am
content: but the scope is going to be the one that makes the picture that someone non technical can understandthe other instruments make tables, then they think you are buying expensive furniture, and the spectrum analyzer is not in english (that graph is in ancient egyptian). you don't want to explain the signal power within a bandwidth, ever. how come the signal is not moving?

author: analityk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 11:28:56 am
content: I've worked some time for client from Gas and oil industry and from this point of view everything in this film is true.If in some test procedures some engineer point they use fluke 87 there is always "or equivalent" device and you are free to use siglent as long as it have actual 'papers'.And point out with buying laptop for 20k with fronted worth 2k is gold. If Tek can use Windows on frontline and most important scopes why military can not? It obvious. Tek scope are not need be so reliable as military grade device.Point out with industrial components. There is a few temp. grades category where manufacturers can specified some parameters that will always be in some range. There is also reliability test and data you can study during finding out a new components. But it make senses when you want to sold fucktylion devices. Then MTTF, MTBF and FMECA, which one scope manufacturers do FMECA... BS. Maybe Tek or other overpriced scopes use industrial grade device but it doesn't make sense. Show me your Tek spec and temp range where you can use them. -25 to +85 degree of Celsius? Show me this LCD working under -25 C.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 03:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 21, 2023, 11:26:12 pmThat is my experience as well. If the cost is below a certain arbitrary threshold you can get anything. Above this, if a product is from one of the non-traditional companies, be prepared to back it up with technical and long term maintenance reports to justify the purchase.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 03:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 22, 2023, 09:18:19 amI have seen this lack of willingness to purchase the right equipment hamper development for quite some time. Add to this the engineers' time, RTM delay and other factors, and the initial ~$100k capex was easily offset.OTOH, I also have saved weeks of troubleshooting by using my personally-owned Rigol DS4014 and its deep memory instead of the ancient Tek TDS3054s or Agilent DSO6054As available at work.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 03:38:40 pm
content: even for day to day operations its a benefit towards making people not hate you. if you need to work with someone and you got deep zoom then you can get by doing 1/2 the measurements for zeroing in on specifics, even something simple like a switch.then you have a '45 minute guy' and the 'never ending meeting' guy that a tech or coworker might need to work with. they don't wanna be sitting with you all day because you can't get what you want for them to write down. like if they keep having to redo something on a PC.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 03:39:56 pm
content: Fun story: when visiting a Chinese ODM's design office in Shenzen, they both had high end Rigol/Sigilent and Keysight/Tek testgear.The Rigols and Sigilents were in the cupboard, the Teks and Keysights were on the bench.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 10:50:37 pm
content: In SMEs I saw it get bypassed, in large corporations with a working quality management system that demands paperwork, and fat chance you're getting an actual calibration certificate or traceable safety test paperwork from these cheaper manufacturers.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2023, 11:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: HalFET on November 22, 2023, 10:50:37 pmSure, but how much of the test equipment in a large organisation is inside the calibration/quality system? When that sort of system is in place the equipment I would use day to day (from "A" brands) had big stickers reminding the user it was not known to be accurate and outside the calibration chain.Does a firmware engineer really care about the voltage accuracy of a I2C bus? or just wants to check its roughly correct and the timing between bytes/messages is what was expected? Neither would that have any safety implications on the choice of instrument.Having ready access to sufficient test equipment is better than waiting for something more than sufficient.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 12:06:18 am
content: Quote from: Kanbus on November 19, 2023, 07:50:07 pmThat was quite a bad video overall. I listened to about 75% of it and its SNR is quite low due to his wild tangents and circular reasoning. His presentation detracts a lot from his credibility. The vast majority of claims based solely on opinion and not facts, tied to the excessive use of foul language and the nice beer on the side do no favours - it gave me the image of the slightly drunk uncle talking heated topics on a family dinner.There are several weird things you pointed out, but upfront the wild claim that "all is BS" highlights his lack of expertise with the wide variety of test equipment in use across the industry. Sure, the title of the video is about "Tek oscilloscopes", but his claimed expertise should have taught him that many other types of instruments exist and require more specialized calibration/maintenance services than the typical DSO/DMM/SpecAn trio (protocol analyzers, for example). Not only that but what would a T&M manufacturer do to calibrate and adjust their newly manufactured product? Send it to a third party calibration center? I sincerely doubt it would be more cost effective. Oh well... Perhaps was the beer talking, I don't know...Quote from: Kanbus on November 19, 2023, 07:50:07 pmThat is the worst part of the video IMO. The "holier than thou" attitude does the opposite to add weight to his proclaimed impartiality and credibility - only to see the pop ups and the description of the video advertise units from Owon, Kaiweets, etc. Everyone is hustling their own way and his glass ceiling can bring him some trouble with the shade cast to a fellow youtuber.Quote from: Kanbus on November 19, 2023, 07:50:07 pmThe educational market is one of his strongest points but he wanders in very wild tangents about BNC cables not being probes and land on how schools are not preparing students for real life due to the educational material built into the equipment. I agree with this, but the SNR was quite low there.Quote from: Kanbus on November 19, 2023, 07:50:07 pmWell, another void and circular reasoning. If every IC is made in China anyways, it must all have the same quality and no value is placed in scrutiny of parts selection, proper circuit design and manufacturing refinement. It shows his lack of understanding about whole product design and (disingenuously?) props up the other brands he promotes. Or it might also have been the beer talking again...Quote from: Kanbus on November 19, 2023, 07:50:07 pmAgain lack of experience. He would be surprised at the age of the (excellent) equipment I still see in quite advanced labs... Sure, a TDS3054 or a Flue 8050 are obsolete for a great deal of tasks, but it is not restricted to that. Longevity is king and lowers TCO.At around 43 minutes he talks about UI refinement (valid point) but goes on a tangent about font sizes and the difficulty of adjusting the acquisition settings on an oscilloscope from Tek. Several minutes later he talks about how a few months later they come up with a firmware that addresses the two issues. Who is paying for those engineers to implement this? Certainly not Owon and their SDS1202 advertised on his video.Oh well... I am pretty sure he will have a great deal of views/revenue and clicks due to the title, so all the best on his hustle.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 12:26:18 am
content: It's like people discover the YT business every single day. Fascinating.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 01:01:05 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 23, 2023, 12:26:18 am

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 08:20:20 pm
content: I played it for some background noise. Found it a bit difficult to follow along without paying attention. Not watching Dave's videos he referenced for context didn't help.My only problem with other videos they he made was lack of substance. Maybe the drinking played a roll in how scattered this one was. I found it interesting that he felt the need to talk about his professional background. Personally, I would rank his skills based on content, not lip service and didn't find it adding anything to the video but was rather a distraction.It's been several years since I looked at buying a scope for home. I have only bought one new scope in my entire life. The rest have all been used. My hobby exceeds my budget so my only choice is the used market.He mentions PICO a few times. I had actually written them about sending one of their 8GHz VNAs to make some videos and show it off. No luck though. My channel may be too small to generate any interest. That and with ads turned off and no way to provide funding, they may not like my total sink business model.I'm currently looking at a new scope for work. Normally I have some sort of decision matrix and will bring in a few companies for a demo and try them out for a month or so. While I normally include cost as a metric, it has little weight compared to what functions I need the equipment for. I'm not sure about his comments on calibration. We will send off some of our equipment for calibration rather than using the companies that come on-site. Than again, a lot of it may never get calibrated. It depends.I'm sure his comments and story about poor firmware strike a cord with many of us. The same for the UI. That's part of why I will do a month evaluation.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 11:03:32 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 22, 2023, 11:19:40 pmIn our case, everything is tracked and calibration is kept up to date, even on the office multimeters that get used maybe five times a year. They don't want to run the risk of someone using an uncalibrated instrument for something critical. The liability cost of having uncalibrated instruments far exceeds the cost of calibration.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 11:30:25 pm
content: Quote from: HalFET on November 23, 2023, 11:03:32 pmI can believe there are some businesses taking that approach to avoid people using uncalibrated equipment for a task which requires it, and the need varies wildly depending on market/regulations. Your situation seems to be the minority, if they provide sufficient equipment and its all calibrated that sounds very well supported and a nice place to work.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 11:35:50 pm
content: Don't forget calibration is not just about accuracy of measurements but also means subjecting an instrument to a (limited) functional test.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 04:35:23 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 23, 2023, 11:35:50 pmI would say it's pretty much a full on functional test. Then again, I am sure we all have some horror stories when it comes to calibration houses.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 05:21:27 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 24, 2023, 04:35:23 amFor a meter it is pretty typical to have at least one test recorded against every range. But more complex instruments such as scopes only have some of their parameters verified (and/or listed as warranted in the specifications), say channel to channel crosstalk for instance being unwarranted and untested. Or bandwidth, warranted, but untested in different voltage ranges.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 07:48:56 am
content: Quote from: Someone on November 24, 2023, 05:21:27 amLooking at my last report for my old Wavemaster scope, it looks like 43 parameters were verified by the factory. I would say that's a fairly exhaustive test. Again, the idea is to prove that the equipment still meets the manufacture's specifications. That means all of them, not a few selected ones.From listening to that video, it seemed Dave made a big deal out of calibration where the presenter felt they could just use what ever lab they like. Maybe that's fine, maybe not. As I said, I am sure we all have some horror stories when it comes to calibration. Higher end equipment I would tend to return to the manufacture knowing they have any specialized test jigs, software, equipment required to do a proper job of it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 03:31:55 pm
content: For the bandwidth you mentioned, the factory tests all four channels at nine different voltage levels, not one. Mine is an 8500A which is spec'ed to 5GHz. So they test at 5.001GHz and make sure the signal is higher than -3dB. They also look at flatness. These tests give me some idea how far I can push the scope. For example, a few weeks ago I posted a screen shot from this scope where I excited a 6GHz filter with a pulse:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/msg5163876/#msg5163876During the video, he talks a lot about his background in power supplies. True or not, doesn't really mater but I doubt many people would want a scope like mine for that sort of work. I have a lower end (well, all my scopes are used and very old so...) that I use for the majority of my experimenting. Point being, he may consider $5kUSD a very high end scope and there is no need for anything better. Something like the electrician who wrote me how there was never any need to look at signals beyond 60Hz. That's the world he lives in, even though our voices and ears work at much higher frequencies.****Thinking about reviews, I have not seen this particular person do it, but I have seen others call Dave a snob when it comes to recommendations he makes regarding handheld multi-meters. When it comes to oscilloscopes, this person may view the use of higher end ones being a bit of a snob as well. He may be totally ignorant about their applications.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 04:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 24, 2023, 04:35:23 amNope. There is so much going on in modern digital / software driven test equipment that a full functional test is not feasible for a calibration lab. You'll only know if the hardware works and the software up to a basic functional level.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 06:07:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 24, 2023, 04:42:20 pmIf I knew something worked, it would be the end of the discussion. That word "works" seems to have taken on many meanings. For an ebay seller it may suggest they plugged in the device and no smoke came out. To me, in the context of this discussion, it means the instrument meets all the manufactures stated specs. Calibration is proof of that. I'm not suggesting that all calibration houses provide the same service.I have had a couple of cases dealing with third party cal houses worth mentioning. In one case, they were using a calibrator that was not up to the task. Talking with Fluke, they had a system that could do the job but this company did not want to invest the $$$. Reports are important as the cal house will supply such details.Another case we had a third party calibrate a non-working system. It magically came back in the same non-working condition with a calibration tag on it. In this case, seems their definition of works was a bit lacking. This may be what you are running into and you may consider it acceptable. A common one I have seen is handheld multi-meters where they were returned with a dead battery or blown fuses, but had an updated cal tag on them.A company who designs and manufactures their products may be better suited to re-certify them. You can imagine that they need to verify every product that leaves the factory. Much of this testing may already be automated. Customers may have to pay a premium for that service.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 06:55:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 24, 2023, 04:42:20 pmA well though out OEM calibration and performance test procedure can identify the vast majority of shortcomings without actually measuring a response at each and every possible setting. However, I wouldn't expect the calibration process to effectively validate the firmware so testing the outcome of every possible software test seems an unreasonable goal. IOW, if the device has a design flaw, especially in software, then I don't expect calibration to pick it up.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 07:13:54 pm
content: Eddie has a more democratized and less elitist approach to test equipment and I like it.My only rant is that both Eddie and Dave seems to hoard test equipment they don't need rather than design and build stuff.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 09:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on November 24, 2023, 06:55:50 pmWhich circles back to my original statement: a calibration can also be seen as a limited functional test.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2023, 09:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 24, 2023, 03:31:55 pmDifferent scopes, different manufacturers, have different calibration record/limits/requirements. Not surprising at all.A sticker on a product that says CALIBRATED (even if in date) is the start of assurance, not the end. Taking a blanket approach can leave the end users complacent to the details of what is inferred by "calibration" and what is actually explicit.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2023, 02:08:36 am
content: Quote from: Someone on November 24, 2023, 09:42:29 pmThis is one reason why I request reports. Sure they add to the cost but I can easily tell what tests were performed, what equipment was used to perform those test, when the equipment was calibrated. Of course, how my equipment performed during each test.Like any other job you may contract out, it's not a commodity. It's good to interview the company you plan to use and make sure they can provide the service you require.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 08:07:54 am
content: I would say it is understandable he is just upset he cannot keep up with a fella who lives in Australia that spends a good bit of time outdoors where everything tries to kill you.The insects try to kill you, the birds try to kill you, the wombats, the dingoes, the drop bears and the endless snakes all try to kill you. Even the trees and plants try to kill you. Think the water is safe. Nope, even it tries to kill you.These companies sending stuff in for reviews, know to send it to a country where everything tries to kill you.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2023, 02:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: .RC. on November 27, 2023, 08:07:54 amIt is a miracle that Dave managed to survive into such a really old age there. I bet he is already above 30.Probably because he has that big knife which he can use to kill things day and night.If he would do a video about his way into the office, it would get a 18 years rating. (Because of violence of course.)He is a hero.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2023, 04:07:45 pm
content: Of course! His vehicle’s Roo Bumper has powerful lasers to blind the kangaroos before running them over.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2023, 05:59:02 pm
content: Dont forget the cane toads!

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2023, 11:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 23, 2023, 11:30:25 pmActually, we're volume manufacturing consumer products and penny pinching left and right. But you're not seeing the financial side of this, when you're moving billions of EUR/USD in products each year you want to minimize your liability at the process level. Say there's a fire at a customer premise due to a product, now you have external parties going through your documentation in legal proceedings, the cost of ownership of those uncalibrated instruments is suddenly a whole lot higher in those scenarios because your internal engineering documentation is now at question. Meanwhile, getting a contract in place with the manufacturer to handle the calibration on an on-going basis, having good inventory management, ensuring no uncalibrated instruments can enter the facility through strict procurement processes, and everything that comes along with it becomes pretty cheap in those instances.Meanwhile, when I was working in a highly specialized field with high budgets, they were penny pinching on calibrations - even though the customer explicitly demanded them.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 12:58:48 am
content: Who on earth says “butt hurt”, apart from adolescent Americans? If you want people to take something seriously, refine your articulation.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 01:19:00 am
content: Quote from: HalFET on November 30, 2023, 11:57:19 pmThats jumping to an extreme, all the compliance and product safety work should/needs to be done with calibrated equipment. That work can even be the majority use (in hours of operation) of test equipment with things left on in production and continually used. But as the example above, there are day to day uses in R&D (as separate from manufacturing or compliance/safety) which have no need for any calibration or traceability, just some guidance/informational.The thread has also discussed how calibration does not mean every measurement is covered, there is significant judgement/consideration required by the person using the equipment to be sure that the calibration covers their particular use. Calibration is needed in context, not just a blanket (and blind) "must calibrate all instruments that can be calibrated".... which you can have done for almost any meter/instrument even the low rent brands such. I've seen measurement tools calibrated for a single parameter within a narrow range, because that was all that was required, rather than the expense of a comprehensive calibration.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 04:49:08 pm
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on December 01, 2023, 12:58:48 amSlang mainly stays with the generation it evolved in, though it does diffuse out a bit, and those adolescent Americans are now adults. In context the expresssion is clearly meant to indicate an immature attitude on the part of the subject of the post; a subtle distinction that perhaps escapes a non-native speaker.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 05:20:35 pm
content: Another reason that the big corporations stick with the big name suppliers is that they don't pay list price. I got a brief insight into this one year when I found that my company got a major (more than 25%) kickback of total annual purchases as long as those purchases exceeded some 7 or 8 digit number. I have no idea if or how that kickback was allocated among the business units, or how the many tax implications were handled. Perhaps something in those unknowns made it still more attractive.I know that the price differential between the good, but second tier folks is larger than the number mentioned, but it adds to the other factors mentioned previously.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 07:08:06 pm
content: I know from experience that if you spend lots the sales team can offer you better discounts. Customers willing to spend are good for sales.On the comment about calibration, labs often can only test the elements that make the kit work. But testing the functions as a whole is a bit of a pain unless you have a known working example of what it needs to be tested on and a known failed example. This is not helped by manufacturers that keep things hidden or no manual mode so the manufacturer is where you have to go to get it calibrated fully, or even adjusted.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2023, 11:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 01, 2023, 01:19:00 amAnd where do you draw the line on product safety? Where does the accredited body draw the line? Where does the legal system draw the line? It's easy to make such statements online, but the reality is that in practice it can get very blurry. And that's without considering the cost of having to do product recalls, secondary inspections after you failed an inspection round, or the cost of having a single injured person. So no, it's really just easier and cheaper to keep everything calibrated as a large company, then there's never any discussion. And as many folks above suggested, as a large corporation you get "fleet contracts" and you ain't paying the sticker price. So yes, it's actually really just easier and cheaper to go with this approach once you get past a certain size.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 03:14:17 am
content: Quote from: HalFET on December 01, 2023, 11:20:11 pmWhere have I said to use uncalibrated equipment for compliance/documentation? There are many tasks within R&D (and even in manufacturing) where there is no impact on safety or compliance, indication only. There should be no blurry for the experienced/qualified people doing such work, they should be educated well enough to be able to confidently identify what needs calibrated devices, and what the calibrations should be (not just a sticker on the front).Gong hard on calibrating everything just in case is one way to go, it's not the best/only way to go in every situation. You're imagining some world where policy eliminates thought, which I will suggest is likely more dangerous (through people not thinking through what calibration means and applies to) than putting decision making with trustworthy people.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 08:53:19 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 02, 2023, 03:14:17 amOk, you do a quick measurement, now you write an e-mail with the results, a colleague quickly copies something from it for some design documentation, congratulations you just have data from an uncalibrated instrument in your design documentation. So yes, it really can get quite fuzzy because people are imperfect and make small mistakes. So it's a black and white issue from a quality manager's point of view, uncalibrated instruments have no place on the work floor. And I can perfectly understand why they're doing it, the laissez-faire approach to handling instrument tracking and calibration has filled up a few graveyards over the years. This is literally the point behind quality systems, it prevents small fuck ups from becoming big fuck ups with mindless procedures to catch mistakes that'd get glanced over otherwise. And yes, it's annoying sometimes, it can be dreadful to deal with, but if you're going to do something like stick an electric heater in a plastic enclosure you damn well want those sort of processes to be in place.And as to, "it's fine in R&D", it really isn't. I work in R&D, if something weird happens in the field it's not uncommon for us to go on location to figure out what went wrong. Having to second guess your equipment there just ain't worth the potential cost savings.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 09:04:11 am
content: Quote from: HalFET on December 02, 2023, 08:53:19 amUnthinkingly and unquestioningly trusting the reading on any piece of TE just because of a cal sticker and a brand-name is also not a sensible standpoint. Without knowledge of what a sensible reading might be, in both normal and fault conditions, andwhy, it's just a box-ticking exercise.A cal sticker on a premium brand doesn't guarantee accurate results, it just indicates that reasonable steps were taken to try and ensure them.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 02:07:26 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 02, 2023, 09:04:11 am95% probability with luck.I often suggest customers keep a standard or two they can keep around to check the kit.With scales it a weight, the logic being it's a simple item and means you check regularly that it's still ok. It's a bit like having a resistor or a simple voltage reference about.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 11:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: HalFET on December 02, 2023, 08:53:19 amFor systems I worked in, if there is documentation which requires calibration then the calibration dates+serials/identifiers are recorded against the data. Are you suggesting a quality system that assumes all items are suitable and calibrated but the chain is not auditable because the result is not linked back through traceable calibrations?The entire point of traceable calibration is that if some discrepancy is found, every item in the chain can be checked, and resultant data produced can be marked as questionable until resolved. That should not change regardless of the percentage of calibrated equipment in circulation.

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2023, 11:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 02, 2023, 09:04:11 amCome and see, come and see, we've found another person who doesn't understand the point of calibrations! If you get an odd reading on a calibrated instrument, you have a pretty good chance that what you're measuring is the thing acting up, and not the meter. Meanwhile, if I'm working with an uncalibrated instrument I quite literally have to assume that the instrument could be the thing that's acting up, and I have to pull out a second one to get some degree of certainty. And with a calibrated instrument you can, within reason, assume that the quantity you're measuring won't deviate more than a certain percentage from the actual measured quantity, which means you can actually compare measurements from various instruments over time and have a pretty good idea about what's your measurement error and what's the actual effect you're trying to measure. If you do not understand the value of that when you're debugging or designing something, then I'm at a loss for words, it's a major time and effort saver, and as a large company it's the responsible option.Quote from: Someone on December 02, 2023, 11:06:02 pmAre you a dunce, or is risk mitigation really such a foreign concept to you?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 01:03:28 am
content: Quote from: HalFET on December 02, 2023, 11:20:04 pmCalibration certificates are not magic tokens that shield you from the possibility that your instrument may malfunction. Your test instrument is always part of the circuit and you always have to consider that the instrument may have a fresh or previously unknown defect. For a concrete example, if I observed an unexpected reading using my Fluke 27 (obviously quite old) I would assess the probability of the meter having a problem as extremely low, the possibilty of an issue with the test leads or setup as worth a look and the likeliehood that the anomalous reading is, in fact, correct as pretty high. An 11-month old calibration certficiate stuck on the back wouldn't move the needle on my expectations. Now I have the means to check it myself, something I think every critical use should require.Personally I think the key here is generally to not use other people's instruments and to not let them use yours. That freshly calibrated $5K LCR meter might have just been used by some idiot to test a charged reservoir capacitor in an SMPS. The sticker won't protect it.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 01:09:49 am
content: Quote from: HalFET on December 02, 2023, 11:20:04 pmRisk of what? Are you calibrating everything just so you can always assume the any measurement made in your facility is made by an in-calibration instrument? I suppose that could mitigate certain risks. But part of any calibration program is remediation--when an instrument comes back with an OOT (out of tolerance) report. If you have 100 bench meters in your facility and you don't keep track of who measured what with which one, just one of them coming back OOT means everything you've done for the past year is suspect.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 01:44:54 am
content: As others have said, it is usually a matter of risk mitigation and uncertainty tracking.In my experience, the decision of implementing a company-wide mandatory calibration of equipment depends a lot on the size of the facilty, as larger environments will have people with a wide variety of expertise and inclination to follow procedure. In smaller facilities there is much more control over the user base of such equipment, thus some leeway tends to exist. In these cases the risk mitigation is prevalent.Also, uncalibrated equipment has no place at any station or bench that performs parameter characterization that will be published (either internally or externally). In this case the uncertainty tracking is prevalent. On the other stations it might be a mixed bag due to practicality and cost.One aspect that tends to fall between the two scenarios above is when a unit returned from the field needs to be checked (failure analysis). This usually is tested first at the general station for evaluation and might get back to the fully characterized station depending on the severity, size of customer, etc. This is where having calibration across the board can be beneficial and mitigate risk.Taking back to the original subject of the thread, in any professional circumstance the calibration will be needed at a certain point and some types of equipment will require a complete manufacturer's calibration amd evaluation. So, it is still naïve to imagine this carries no value or does not contribute to the retail price.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 05:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: HalFET on December 02, 2023, 11:20:04 pmAre you an arse, or is common courtesy really such a foreign concept to you?If you can't make your points without resorting to insults, I put it to you that it isyourcalibration that is at fault.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2023, 10:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 03, 2023, 01:44:54 amThat's when you have a choice. When you work in a regulated industry, you are just required to do it, you don't have a say, and it turns out fine (if expensive).

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 07:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 03, 2023, 01:03:28 amOf course, but if the instrument literally hasn't been checked in years, as if often the case with "that office multimeter in the drawer" in most companies, you should honestly automatically get a second one and check if the measurement is anywhere close. If you calibrate all instruments on a yearly basis, you at least have some certainty that it passed a fairly thorough functionality check at some point in the last year.Quote from: bdunham7 on December 03, 2023, 01:03:28 amI have yet to see a place where everyone gets their own equipment.Quote from: bdunham7 on December 03, 2023, 01:03:28 amBut that doesn't change the fact that having mystery instruments that are never checked around the office is a great way to make mistakes, and a good cal lab will in fact make sure that everything is within spec over the entire range of each instrument that passes through their hands. So they have a tendency to catch things that you might not find as easily.Quote from: bdunham7 on December 03, 2023, 01:09:49 amVarious fuck ups that happen in industrial environments: Say Josh from the office takes their multimeter to the production line to check out the first batch of a new product and leaves it there, one of the guys in manufacturing takes it and starts using it to do verification measurements on the products that were rejected by the automated system. If that meter was calibrated and the guy in manufacturing does that, whoopsie but not too big of a concern really, remember everyone why you shouldn't do that. Now repeat that with an uncalibrated meter, and you were checking if a heating element was within spec, congrats massive financial consequences since you now get to recall products. So yes, it's really just part of risk mitigation, I don't get why you guys seem to think it must be some sort of absolute defence against measurement fuck ups, but it's part of a multi-layered risk mitigation strategy.Quote from: rsjsouza on December 03, 2023, 01:44:54 amExactly, we have 1500+ people on site frequently at the same time from all walks of life, so you can't assume knowledge or expertise from everyone on every single topic. And there's honestly no way to keep tools contained to particular areas, folks will just forget or misplace things, and not everyone who uses the tool will be able to identify everything that could be wrong with it. It also means we don't need two separate inventory systems for instruments, which apparently also makes it less of a headache to handle for some of the administrative departments.Quote from: joeqsmith on December 03, 2023, 02:14:11 amYep, it's sometimes ridiculous, but the nice thing is that they also tend to do things like replace oxidized terminals while they're in for calibration.Quote from: AVGresponding on December 03, 2023, 05:51:06 pmCommon courtesy is also not repeating yourself twenty times while failing to understand that the economics of such operations differ greatly for large enterprises when compared to your home lab or a company with ten people.Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 03, 2023, 10:44:19 pmI worked in the medical field at two different companies, both were wild and loose with it compared to a consumer goods manufacturer, which is honestly quite surprising if you think about it. Though the latter probably learned about instrument calibration and maintenance practices things through expensive lessons.But yeah, to get back to the original topic, if you have enough cash at hand in a professional environment, purchasing the more expensive instrument is often surprisingly economical. You just got to be sure you're doing it for the right reasons and don't have idiots ordering expensive things for the sake of prestige, and I've run into the latter type of colleague multiple times as well.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2023, 09:34:20 pm
content: I worked once in an environment that cared about calibration. Basically there was that 'equipment department' that was responsible to have everything complainant and we just assumed it always is, never paying attention to any calibration sticker, nor did we get any orientation or training about calibration and compliance.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2023, 12:59:54 am
content: Quote from: HalFET on December 04, 2023, 07:13:16 pmThis reminded me of one practice used to reduce costs: I know of places where signal generators and power supplies present on the lab are "NCR" and the procedure mandates that these are always checked against a calibrated equipment such as a multimeter, oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer.I personally think this is far from ideal in the case of power supplies and, to a lesser extent, RF signal generators. I personally have seen more than one power supply that was failing to regulate their output properly (HP and their stupid failing encoders) and provided twice the voltage in certain cases. Another potential danger is if an RF generator inadvertently outputs a DC level - fatal for some spectrum analyzers.A regular maintenance or calibration interval would catch these before they could potentially cause any damage due to a distraction, but I understand that these are so evident that they wouldn't go unreported for too long.