Engineering Ethics in an specifc case - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: juanfermed
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 04:19:47 pm
content: So I have made a few post in other section regarding the design of a product using lithium ion batteries. We are familiar with the risks involved with these batteries when not selected and managed properly.I want to know the opinion and position forum members would take if you were in the following situation: You know and have presented the "management" team the safety concerns with lithium ion batteries and how to approach the problem. They say the cost increase of high quality / reliable batteries and the added protection electronics is too much to fit the cost target. They say you must design and manufacture the system with any cell that fits the cost target (no matter its quality or safety, or as good as it can be, even if it is stil bad) and with no dedicated/independent protections, hoping that no issue will ariseWhat do you do? Would you continue with the design? Would you present a resign letter indicating that it is too risky and do not want to be involved in such a project?I want to be clear that I am not in that situation, but examples like the Volkswagen emissions fraud, Toyota sudden unintended acceleration in some car models, makes me think about what would I do in such situations as engineer. I will appreciate your take on this one.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 04:31:08 pm
content: Depends on the situation really, and how much overkill margin there is between your "ultrasafe" solution and a "more realistic" one, whether or not they're susceptible to redesign their product to use a existing commercially available battery pack,etc...Not knowing the application it's hard to comment, but for example if you were asking for medical-grade battery certification for a $50 consumer device then management would most likely be right to tell you to rather look at what other consumer devices do.All of that needs face to face discussion between the parties to understand each one's reasons not to be happy, see if a compromise is possible, if not and they really push for something that is unreasonable then say so and walk away telling them to find a moron who will just do what they want instead of an engineer.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 04:37:35 pm
content: I won't say too much, but I was involved in a li-poly project at a previous company and I saw multiple issues and voiced my concerns about them, hoping they would be at least addressed if not fixed. I never heard back from those that I contacted about this.my contract did not get renewed at the end of the term.read into that any way you want.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 05:09:58 pm
content: Depends on the legal frame work of the country that this takes place in.Depends on whether the person likes working for the company or is not bothered about leaving.From a personal perspective, I would make sure ALL correspondence is in written form (legally acceptable if possible). In particular, all issues to do with safety are presented in a clear and um-misstakeable way. Make sure the correspondence makes clear that it is to people in roles of responsibility. Do not accept any instructions verbally, insist on all instructions in writing.Keep all this written correspondence backed up where it cannot be deleted (while not breaking any company rules on releasing data!).If leaving the company, make sure the backup copies of the correspondence are taken!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 05:37:27 pm
content: A technique used by the UK civil service when they are asked to implement something they think is wrong is to send a paper memo stating their position, and "ask for written guidance"."Written" is obvious. "Guidance" means "tell me explicitly so I (and others) cannot misinterpret what you want".

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 07:38:54 pm
content: I'm doing something right now I think is wrong. Butthe customertruly insists in it happening. And we make big money. Meh. Their lives.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 08:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 05:37:27 pmThat strikes me as a very effective CYA technique, and one that might also get the higher ups to re-think questionable instructions if they find themselves to be at the end of the paper trail.-Pat

author: juanfermed
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 08:21:10 pm
content: Yes Kilrah, I draw it like a black or white situation, and certainly would not be the case. For me it would be hard to say "I resign" because I do like my job and would be sad something like that happened.What you guys have commented is very valuable. I think in the case where, the proposed protection and verifications are the minimum reasonable, and you are being forced to design something without it, I personally would resign. But more importantly, and I think now added to my "best practices" is having written form of any conversations around safety topics, as MosherIV suggests. I like what tggzzz proposes, as it very clear to show "who" is requesting you to do "what" and being very specific about it.Wow, I do like what you guys are commenting since can be very useful steps to do if ever presented in such a situation. Thanks for all your replies I find them very practical in real life.I think I understand Jeroen3 case, because there the actual final user is taking the knowledgeable decision to put in risk their own lives, and paying (big money) for it. I am not going to say I would do it too but, in the case I propose, a management team would be taking the decision of putting in risk other people lifes (customers), so you are probably more in the middle or more "liable".Thinking about this makes me nervous because, how can you be sure your sense of safety is correct enough to make you take the decision of resigning? What if you are being just an idiot and an industry expert would agree? Is this a matter of like a "sixth sense" or something like that? How can you know you are making or not an engineering malpractice?

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 09:41:24 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 11, 2016, 07:38:54 pmQuote from: juanfermed on July 11, 2016, 08:21:10 pmJust make sure you've got triple the usual level of CYA, because those types of people who insist they are right when you clearly tell them they shouldn't do something will insist even more that it's your fault if anything goes wrong, as said they were of course right but you botched it by doing a bad job...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 10:10:54 pm
content: "What do you do? "Anything you have designed can be used somewhere by someone somehow to hurt others. As such, ethics isn't black and white.I think end of the day, you have to live with your conscience. You have to ask yourself if you can sleep at night knowing what you have done.Nobody else can answer that question for you, unfortunately.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 10:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: juanfermed on July 11, 2016, 04:19:47 pmI'd do my best to come up with a solution which doesn't affect/bypass safety but if that is not possible I'd probably refuse to continue on the project. Come to think of it: I sort of did that in the past. But there are tons of people who don't foresee the consequences of what they are working on. I think Dr Oppenheimer (who helped developing the first nuclear bomb) is a good example.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2016, 01:10:09 am
content: Well as the (or part of) engineering part of such a project you should put some effort into finding published standards, best practices, past incidents, and any other documentation that supports your recommendations to help them understand your issues and that it's not just based on your personal opinion.Making risk assessments should be part of any substantial project and safety considerations is probably only one of several risks that should be weighed and decided on. Management does have a role and it's not just to accept whatever you say uncondionally. If it's a team project then there should be team consensus on such decisions.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2016, 01:29:18 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 05:37:27 pmThat really is excellent advice. I have done similar in the past.One good one in particular was when I was working as a maintenance tech in a heavy industrial environment. We had one piece of safety-critical equipment that was damaged beyond repair. Top management said it was too expensive to replace, and insisted we do a bodge-job of a repair. I flatly refused. When it was made clear to me that it was not my decision to make, and this bodgewouldbe carried out, I responded with a very polite email:"As this repair procedure does not appear in the manufacturer's manual, nor in any of our company's DIs (Detailed Instructions), before we undertake this repair, please draw up a clear and unambiguous DI for us to follow, and we will start the job as soon as we receive the hard copy of the new proceduce, signed off by the Plant Manager."The reply came there none.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2016, 07:04:27 am
content: Quote from: Delta on July 12, 2016, 01:29:18 amNicely done.The nearest equivalent I have is when drawing up a contract to develop a life-support machine, I inserted a clause stating I "repurposed" from a National Semiconductor datasheet, and drew the customer's attention to it in the covering letter. The clause stated what we developed would not be suitable for any life support purposes.The customer signed the contract, because they knew where the responsibility lay.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2016, 07:44:42 pm
content: I'd still be very carefull with just signing away responsibilities. That is a bit like having a signed agreement with a rent-a-killer that he is solely responsible for the kill. If a life support machine's only purpose is to do a life support task people may still come after you if something goes wrong. I'd seek legal counsil but my gut feeling says I'd want a lifesupport machine to adhere to all applicable safety standards before it ships out.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2016, 09:07:28 pm
content: I agree, producing a machine that exists for one purpose, then trying to assert in a contract that it's not fit for that purpose, is not legally sound.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2016, 09:35:35 pm
content: It wasn't that simple, of course; I grossly simplified to get the major point across!

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:37:15 am
content: Money.Liability/consequences of your actions to stay or go or to design or not/profit/loss/risk/human life.These all have dollar values and, ultimately, that is how outcomes are measured in most company/corporate situations.In these sorts of cases, even ethics often come down to a choice, and that always has money on one side.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 08:26:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 12, 2016, 07:44:42 pmYou are correct, and I hate myself for saying it, but; fuck them. That's the way they roll, so play them at their own game. Sometimes I was like Arnold Rimmer when we finally got a hold of the Space Core Directive Manual. I had a Plant Manager who would rip us to pieces because we hadn't done the paperwork in accordance with the company's procedures. I spent a quiet nightshift reading though most of the bullshit procedureshehad signed off, then confronted him in the morning meeting. "My team carried out no maintenance last night because we did not have ABEK1 filters that would fit our respirators, as specified on page 47, paragraph 2 of your newly authorised procedure" "Erm, well, erm" "That's the problem Boss, when you preach about your poxy procedures,pricks like me actually read them!"

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 11:07:59 am
content: "The customer signed the contract, because they knew where the responsibility lay."Or he knows that he can still sue your pants off. That language isn't worth the paper it is written on, if you were to ask any lawyer.It's only use is to provide an illusion of protection for the ignorant.Next time, talk to a real lawyer.

author: techie1234
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:55:09 pm
content: Departing the ethics for a second for a trip through the legal: this obviously depends upon locale, but in general what are the requirements for when a licensed engineer is required to stamp a design (and, thus, I would assume, take legal liability for it)?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:03:54 pm
content: I suspect that short of specific professions (civil engineering for example), the liability is with the employer not the employees - the GM ignition key fiasco would be a good exhibit.So generally it is true when the employer tells you that the decision isn't with you, from a legal point of view.Obviously, ethics is totally different.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 01:03:54 pmNot where Health & Safety is concerned in the UK. If I, as an employee, am injured then it is explicitly possible for me to sue my employer and my boss personally - and that responsibility cannot be escaped.Whether any such case would result in a payout obviously depends on the case. However if it is clear that my boss told me to stop doing something dangerous and I didn't, then they are still personally liable. Where safety is concerned, my boss has to stop me doing the dangerous activity, full stop.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:15:08 pm
content: Quote from: techie1234 on July 13, 2016, 12:55:09 pmThe answer is 'it depends'.If I hire someone as a professional engineer, and give that person a job along the lines of "design product X", then that person certainly can be liable in law if product X turns out not to be fit for its intended purpose, and causes damage or harm. Many employees do live in a nice, cosy little world of their own in which they believe responsibility for their actions lies with their employer. They're very, very wrong.Of course, I may be liable too as a Director of the company - but if I can claim I hired someone who should have had the necessary expert knowledge and expertise to do the job safely, and that person subsequently failed to do the job safely, then that may well be accepted as a defence in court.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:36:49 pm
content: If you were to resign or refuse, they'll just get someone else to do it, and in this job market there will be 100 people lining up to do it. So that said I'd try to at least convince them to do some extra testing scenarios, perhaps where they can SEE the dangers for themselves. That may potentially change their mind.At very worse, at least I would call to have plenty of safety warnings on the device. Like if it's something that uses an 18650 cell it could be a warning that says to remove the cell after each use, or to let it cool down before charging, or whatever scenario may be that will reduce chance of explosion.If you just bring up the possibility of lawsuit or bring up an example like those "hover boards" they may simply decide that there is a need for extra safety.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 01:47:57 pm
content: Quote from: juanfermed on July 11, 2016, 04:19:47 pm'I was only following orders'In an ideal world, resign.My conscience would trouble me but I have, in the past, declined second interviews for jobs where I felt uncomfortable with the ethics or business of a company.I have also resigned from jobs where it became apparent that no amount of persuasion would dissuade the board (one of which I was a member) from making the 'wrong' decision.I'm very fortunate that I was proven right in both cases.If it becomes known that you were the designer, no amount of indemnity from the board would stop people looking at you funny when you went to interview or tried to start a business.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 03:21:48 pm
content: In my world, management is not involved in safety critical decisions. When I design something, I implicitly assume that it is supposed to be safe, and reliable. On the other hand, I can imagine a situation where safety is disregarded. Just put a malfunctioning device on the table on the next management meeting, inform them what will happen next. Tell them that this could have happened on their night stand next to their bed, or next to their children bed.Also, the comment "I would not buy this" is usually a good , discreet indicator what you think about the system.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 08:55:52 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on July 13, 2016, 01:15:08 pmYou are right. The same happened with VW/Dieselgate. Hadn't they said a small group of engineers were responsible for this disaster?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 09:39:19 pm
content: "Hadn't they said a small group of engineers were responsible for this disaster?"Absolutely. And only fools will believe that.Pointing fingers down is always wrong. Sure, Hitler's soldiers pulled the triggers that killed innocent people but if your finger pointed stops there, you deserved to be his victim.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 10:27:39 pm
content: Found it, here we are: "To my knowledge this was a couple of software engineers." (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/10/vw_boss_engineers_blame/)The upper management level do not hesitate pointing fingers down. No matter how good the engineer tried to ensure his point of view regarding"safety critical decisions"or any other type of decision.However, others already mentioned it: No matter how good an engineer tries to protect himself, he is always responsible for his actions. Even if no court can judge him ... I could not sleep peacefully in such a case.Cheershammy

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 07:43:51 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 09:39:19 pmNo, I disagree with you there. If the boss is always going to take the blame for whatever goes wrong, the individuals actually doing the work don't need to take responsibility for their own actions. This cannot lead to a greater quality of work overall.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 08:04:22 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on July 14, 2016, 07:43:51 amAgree, pride in your work should always be a thing and that means caring about the end product which implies responsibility

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 11:29:41 am
content: QuoteEven if the engineers were fully at fault - they made the decision themselves to circumvent emission controls. One has to ask who's responsible for such a culture that made this possible, for a lack of check-and-balance in an organization, for a governance failure, ...?If we had allowed the engineers to be the scapegoat here, we have failed to learn a valuable lesson from the scandal.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 12:55:37 pm
content: I'd play CYA and ask politely for an assumption of liability in written form which also states my concerns. That should help the management to understand that there's a real issue. If they don't care, they also don't care about their empoyees. In that case get away ASAP. In some countries you might have to report such things, otherwise you could be made responsible for assistance in a crime when something bad happens (ask a lawyer!).

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 02:03:56 pm
content: Quote from: juanfermed on July 11, 2016, 04:19:47 pmIn the manual I wrote for the product, I replaced "Product X" with "Test version of product X" and the first chapter was about the differences to-be-made to make it a potentially legal product.I combined questions going to several departments, and included questions about the illegal state of the product.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2016, 08:26:02 pm
content: New York state just filed a suite Against vw. The complaint is public so you can read all you want.In short, multiple people were involved in the development, deployment and deceiption around the defeat devices.2, there was a concerted effort to deceive and detail the investigation.3. Vw went so far to perform a cost benefit analysis of its deceiption.4. The involvement went into vw boardroom.Pointing fingers downward at the engineers would have been dead wrong.