Help a beginner to choose an oscilloscope from the limited brands amount! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: IRG7PSH73K10
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 10:11:42 pm
content: Hi!A question from DSO beginner, if you don't mind.I'm choosing a <1000$ scope for DIY power electronics and simplest AVR projects. That's involve up to 16 MHz square signals and some edgy MOSFETs di\dt (up to 50 nsec and less).The models I consider worthy and which I have the access to:Rigol- DS1054 (406$), customs-free, yet not sure if 0,25 Gs\sec. is enough for my FET's observing purposes with 3+ channels active.- MSO 5074 (894$), customs-free, but the ammount of glitches frustrates me. Also, not quite sure is it still hackable, or the recent units became hack-proof?Siglent- SDS1074X-E (777$), could be a no-brainer, but for some reason there is >75% chance my local customs will reject it, leaving me with no scope, and maybe even with no money eitherMicsig- STO1104C (757$), customs-free, looks nice, but besides of it's price, there is a screen glitch if testing HV stuff, which is a huge flaw for me.Tektronix- TBS1072C (804$), customs-free, but... 20k memory. Nuff said.And a bottom of R&S:- RTC1002 (1473$), customs-free, but that's just only 2 channels and 100 MHz for x1.5 of my max. budgetAll prices are including taxes and delivery.WWJD in my situation?Thank you in advance for your help and patience, friends!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 10:34:27 pm
content: Welcome to the forum.Have you considered the SDS1104X-U ?https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-u/

author: IRG7PSH73K10
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 10:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 19, 2022, 10:34:27 pmYup, but as I mentioned above, any Siglent involves a customs controll, which Ireallyneed to avoid. They are awesome scopes, but for a logistics reasons it's too risky to buy em for me.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 10:44:23 pm
content: Quote from: IRG7PSH73K10 on April 19, 2022, 10:41:42 pmOK in USSR they are available as AKIP rebrands, what choices do you have for local supply ?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 10:45:29 pm
content: power electronics ? mosfet gates ? get a machine with ISOLATED channels !Tek TPS2024B or THS3000Micsig MS320ITHantek DSO1152S or 6074BEFluke scopemetersAEMC OX7104That, or be prepared to get a few isolation or differential probes.

author: IRG7PSH73K10
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 11:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 19, 2022, 10:44:23 pmA plastic case with "made in Russia" increases the price of Chineese PCB inside up to 300%...Not sure which part of this 100-200% overpricing goes to seller and buyer, but this things are definitely made for organizations with direct access to the state budget, not for individuals...I'm not kidding, for example SDS1204x-e by AKIP costs 1692$...

author: IRG7PSH73K10
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 11:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 19, 2022, 10:45:29 pmTrue, but my DIY things will be 12-24v battery powered, and 3+ scope channels will be applied on bottom keys with common ground, thus I don't think such set-up requires an isolated channel scope. If I ever need to check a HV output I'm planning to use a single channel mode + diff probe or at least 220\220 transformer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 11:26:50 pm
content: What kind of screen glitch are you getting when testing HV stuff with the MicSig scope? I hope you aren't using it as a floating oscilloscope; it is not designed for that at all.Getting a HV probe (either differential or high-Z with 1:100 or more attenuation) is a good idea.

author: IRG7PSH73K10
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2022, 11:42:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 19, 2022, 11:26:50 pmYou're right, I was speaking about that glitch. I'm not sure, does it happens only during a floating upper key measurements (I'm not planning to do such a thing), or in a noisy environment too.Yup, I'm thinking about Micsig's differential probe.As for Micsig scope - I don't really need a battery-powered one, cause my PCB's already have battery power. The second thing, as for the Rigol DS1054, I'm not sure about 0,25 GSa\sec per channel while observing <50 nsec FET'sBut if you think 0,25 GSa\sec will be fine - I'd probably go for a Rigol cheapie.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 02:03:49 am
content: I saw this on Amazon recently. Rigol DS1202Z-E (200 MHz, 2ch.) for $299. If suitable, the savings could be used for other equipment?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 02:33:18 am
content: Quote from: IRG7PSH73K10 on April 19, 2022, 11:42:26 pmI had a Rigol DS1054Z, and while the Siglent SDS1104X-E I replaced it with was way better in many ways, the Rigol was still a lot of scope for the money, especially in earlier days. Given your particular circumstances and the pricing of stuff, it (the DS1054Z) probably is your best bet.I no longer have a DS1054Z, but as far as a 50ns rise time with 250MSa/s, here is a 500ns pulse with a 50ns leading edge rise time shown (on an entirely different 350MHz + BW scope) at 20MSa/s, 200MSa/s and 2GSa/s. I think you can clearly see that 200MSa/s is 'enough', but 20MSa/s is clearly not. So the sample rate will not be likely be much an issue for you if that is anything like what your pulse looks like.

author: IRG7PSH73K10
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 02:46:03 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on April 20, 2022, 02:03:49 amI'm looking for a 4ch. scope, that's why DS1054z on the list.Main question I'm thinking about: what sample rate do I actually need to observe ~50 nsec di\dt MOSFET's? Rigol1000\Micsig grants 0,25 GSa\sec., and that's just about 12 points. For example, will I be able to detect voltage spikes if the snubbers are not enough?If yes - then I must choose DS1054z or STO1104cIf no - then I must buy MSO5074 despite of it's horrible, ugly design + slow and buggy software and awful FFT.

author: IRG7PSH73K10
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 03:28:00 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 20, 2022, 02:33:18 amThanks alot for this screens' comparsion! Clearly, it's not much differense between 0.2 GSa\s and 2 GSa\s in this case as I can see.So, the conclusion is:DS1054Z = overall best bang for buckSTO1104c = mobility, better FFT, speed, screen, and design for x2 price.MSO5074 = separated knobs, Bode plot, and bigger GSa\s in it's pants for x2.2 price.And all 3 of them will do the job.Must deside now, should I spent another 400-450 bucks for these extra features...

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 05:34:32 am
content: Quote from: IRG7PSH73K10 on April 20, 2022, 03:28:00 amConsidering everything you have said and your situation in this time. Also considering exactly noted the models mentioned in this quoted post: As @ bdunham7 said: DS1054Z(if price / availability situation is different and your current situation in other ways is different but same technical needs overall, my recommendation is SDS1104X-E)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2022, 05:44:58 am
content: Looks like you've done your homework before posting!Quote from: bdunham7 on April 20, 2022, 02:33:18 amYep. It's perfectly capable of doing the job, there's really no need to spend any more money than that.

author: Orion33
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 10:15:25 am
content: Hello!What is the SDS1074X-E model? It isn't present on official site but sells on AliExpress and Alibaba.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 10:22:11 am
content: Quote from: IRG7PSH73K10 on April 19, 2022, 11:04:10 pmIt will not have made in Russia badge though.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 10:27:29 am
content: Quote from: Orion33 on June 29, 2022, 10:15:25 amWelcome to the forum.The 70 MHz models are China only and not marketed in the west however they do have the same specs apart from BW as the 100 and 200 MHz models.All the X-E's are listed here on the China HQ website:https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds1000x-e/If you tell your browser to translate this ^ in will bump you to the English website where not all models are listed.

author: Orion33
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 11:07:38 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 29, 2022, 10:27:29 amThen it should have two software upgrade options: up to 100 and up to 200, right? What probes are included: 70 or 100 MHz?Maybe do you know why the price in China is almost 2 times higher than in Europe? The price in Europe is very attractive, but thanks to fu***g Putin, we have a difficult quest for logistics...

author: Orion33
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 08:21:39 pm
content: tautech, tell please, isthisapplicable for sds1104x-e?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 09:47:10 pm
content: Quote from: Orion33 on June 29, 2022, 08:21:39 pmYes, it's the 25 MHz isolated output AWG that fits a few Siglent models, USB powered so a quite limited output drive.The website you linked is the Netherlands dealer whereas the EU Siglent branch HQ is in Germany.Quote from: Orion33 on June 29, 2022, 11:07:38 amI believe so as the BW is controlled by code to a chip in the input stages. Mr EEVblog did a video on this a few years back.Probes, I'm unsure but I think it will be PB470 for SDS1074X-E if we go by this:https://siglentna.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/Probe_List_01182022.pdf

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 12:20:12 am
content: Quote from: IRG7PSH73K10 on April 19, 2022, 10:11:42 pmA sample every 4 nanoseconds is plenty fast for your application. 100 MHz rise time is only 3.5 nanoseconds.QuoteThe TBS1072C supports a delayed trigger so it can acquire at full sample rate at any point after the trigger despite the short record length. This is roughly equivalent to a dual delayed sweep but without the B sweep and B trigger.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 03:19:26 am
content: Quote from: IRG7PSH73K10 on April 19, 2022, 10:11:42 pmDS1054Z 100Mhz, 0,25 Gs\sec. is easily enough for a 16Mhz rise time.Hacking is a sales tactic. They aren't trying to stop it, it's planned in the marketing department. If Rigols weren't hackable then nobody would buy them.(And the same for Siglent, if they weren't hackable then everybody would buy Rigols)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 03:35:17 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2022, 03:19:26 amIf their licenses and BW upgrades weren't priced so absurdly (the nearly-worthless 350-to-500MHz upgrade for the SDS2000X+ costs more than the scope itself) perhaps some of us would be willing to pay a little more for a legit decked out version. Especially if they made the hacking a little harder or more dangerous.

author: Orion33
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 08:49:24 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 29, 2022, 09:47:10 pmIt's strange that they didn't use a boost converter. Thank you, this is important information.Quote from: tautech on June 29, 2022, 10:27:29 amAbout 1074? Didn't see. So, it means, that a "well-known script" can expand the bandwidth of this model too?I heard that in the 1104 models is using board revision D, while in the 1204 - board revision E. Is this true now? What are their differences?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 09:33:13 am
content: Quote from: Orion33 on June 30, 2022, 08:49:24 amI expect so however as we don't see the 70 MHz 2 or 4ch X-E models in the west we can only presume they will be no problem for the script.If you hunt in this thread there should be script printouts for the 4ch X-E with the BW versions available:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/QuoteYou're overthinking this, of course there will be PCB revisions from time to time as the design is improved or there are changes to componentry for one reason or another.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 09:37:43 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 30, 2022, 03:35:17 amI'm sure they've done the math. Sales of 500Mhz versions to corporate/educational customers is worth more than getting a few extra bucks out of people whomightnot hack it.

author: Orion33
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 10:08:52 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 30, 2022, 09:33:13 amAre you saying these improvements are minor and not worth the 200 euros?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 10:37:21 am
content: Quote from: Orion33 on June 30, 2022, 10:08:52 amPCB revisions have nothing to do with the BW of the model is what I am saying.Eg, from the latest SDS1004X-E firmware release notes:Fixed the problem: The skew of the two ADCs is not accuracy forhardware of 09 version(System Status shows Hardware Version: 09-xx).The other hardware versions has not this problem.HW versions are for many reasons however it is obvious the last is for a change to components (ADC's) due to supply issues or improved performance from another part.Remember, the modern scope is not just a pile of interconnected componentry but a complex array of SW too with which many adjustments to system performance can be made.Personally we thought SDS1104X-U would rob sales from the X-E however that has not proven to be so and SDS1104X-E has remained our best entry level seller despite it being a good bit more expensive and justifiably so, they're one hell of a good little scope.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 11:58:12 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 30, 2022, 03:35:17 amWell, us engineers often have problems comprehending the decisions of the marketing folks. Yet their strategy cannot be all that bad, given the huge success of Siglent as the biggest Chinese manufacturer of oscilloscopes. In professional markets, the rules are very different anyway.Don’t forget that it has been Siglent, who first offered basic features like segmented memory (up to a total of >100 Mpts in the SDS1004X-E) for free, at some point (I think it has been already in 2017) this became true even for all the basic serial triggers/decoders. Today, Siglent is not alone with this anymore, yet I very much doubt the competition would have born that idea without a little nudge from Siglent 😉I bet the average hobbyist has such a low threshold on the price they’re willing to pay for avoiding a certain effort / risk that comes with hacking, that it really wouldn’t pay off to make the options that cheap.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 02:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on June 30, 2022, 11:58:12 amYou can bet they're not losing any money on the sales of hacked units. Any extra money they can squeeze from people who pay full price for whatever reason? That's a bonus. They probably make a lot on support contracts, too.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 03:42:40 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on June 30, 2022, 11:58:12 amAgree, in the professional market, performance is 1st, cost 2nd, and the reverse for the amateur market.Best,

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2022, 07:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: Performa01 on June 30, 2022, 11:58:12 amWell yes, at the current difficulty and risk--at least as of the date I bought mine--the price would have to be pretty low. But the prices now are such that unless there are deals given--which I assume happens--even a mid-sized corporation might just buy the base product and let their people figure it out.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2022, 06:33:28 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 30, 2022, 07:09:18 pmI just think Siglent have learnt from the "big boys". Offer upgrades and options at ridiculously high list-prices and then make your customers feel good by granting a "huge discount", which includes giving them some software options for free.Professional enterprises (not the one-man-shows and small businesses, who often act not very different from the amateurs) usually know their requirements when they acquire equipment for a certain department / task. Once the decision has been made, that 200 MHz bandwidth is plenty (and even 100 MHz will actually do), they will not order 350 MHz. When they know, that they will only ever deal with the CAN busprotocol, they might order the CAN-FD decoder option but nothing else.Hobbyists on the other hand (as well as backyard repair shops or small engineering offices) often lack clear requirements. There "the more the merrier" rule applies. They want all they can get, but can't neither justify nor afford to pay for it. That's where tinkering and hacking might come into play...Manufacturers usually don't mind. They make sure that they won't make a loss even with their cheapest offering.

author: DaneLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2022, 07:23:38 pm
content: Micsig.reason

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2022, 08:55:53 pm
content: Quote from: DaneLaw on July 01, 2022, 07:23:38 pmYeah, the speaker isn't very good.Youcanbrowse EEVBLOG forums on them though.