My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pm
content: Link to my second thread about components:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/purchasing-parts-and-basic-components-for-a-new-lab/I'm in the US. I could use some advice for how to modify my purchase list. I'll share what I have researched so far.My budget for my overall lab I'll say is $1000. Honestly I'm probably willing to spend more than that, but that's the number I'll work with for the moment. If I need to go over that for something special, I'm down.Right now I am mostly looking on Amazon but if there are cheaper-but-just-as-good alternatives elsewhere, I'm all ears.One condition I want to uphold is good-quality stuff. I don't want to waste money on flimsy crap or knockoffs or specs that aren't genuine. I'd still like to buy the real deal, but simply pay the least that I can.The reason I am making this thread is because I'm already starting to creep up on my budget and I feel like I am probably overspending, but I can't tell.I'm a buy-once-buy-for-life type of person, so while some things may be overkill for me now, I'd rather grow into them rather than end up spending more money in the long run buying replacements and upgrades. I'd rather just buy nicer things up front that will last me a long time and cover the vast majority of possible use cases.What should I change? What should I add?**Multimeter:**EEVblog Brymen BM235 Multimeter:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JZ1ADCO/**Oscilloscope:**Rigol DS1054Z Digital Oscilloscopes - Bandwidth: 50 Mhz, Channels: 4:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012938E76/**Variable Power Supply**Really unsure about this one. I assume something that is capable of both AC and DC output?**Wall Wart**ELEGOO AC 100V-240V Converter Adapter DC 9V 1A Power Supply US Plug 5.5mm x 2.5mm 1000mA Power Adapter Wall Charger Adapter for Arduino UNO MEGA with UL FCC CE certificate:https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-100V-240V-Converter-Adapter-certificate/dp/B074BRR5YNNo idea about this one, PSU research is a lot tougher than the rest it seems**Wire Crimper/Stripper:**IRWIN VISE-GRIP Wire Stripper/Cutter/Crimper, 7", 2078317:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JNLUN4/**Helping Hand:**QuadHands Helping Hands Third Hand Soldering Tool and Vise:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GIKVP5K/**Pliers:**Stanley 84-114 3 Piece Basic 6-Inch Slip Joint, 6-Inch Long Nose, and 6-Inch Diagonal Plier Set:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006HVU4W/**Soldering Station:**Hakko FX888D-23BY Digital Soldering Station FX-888D FX-888 (blue & yellow):https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ANZRT4M/(I considered a TS-100 here but I couldn't figure out what tips, station, tip cleaner, to get... Hakko has it all in one package so I went with that)**Flux Pen**SRA Soldering Products PEN_RMA SRA #99-20 Rosin RMA Soldering Flux Pen - Refillable:https://www.amazon.com/SRA-Soldering-Products-PEN_RMA-99-20/dp/B008OC3VMU/**Thin Solder:**DMiotech 50g 0.3mm Rosin Core Solder Tin Lead Wire 63/37 for Electrical Soldering:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CJCY7OM/**Medium-ish Solder?:**Kester 24-6337-0010 44 Rosin Core Solder 63/37 .020 1 lb. SPOOL:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00068IJWC/**Solder Wick:**Chemtronics Desoldering Braid, Chem-Wik, Rosin, 10-50L 0.10", 50ft.:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0019V5MAC/**Desoldering Pump:**Edsyn Deluxe Soldapullt, Heavy Duty, High Vacuum, ESD:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006GOKVKI/**Flush Cutters:**CHP-170 Micro Cutter:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FZPDG1K/**Breadboards:**1pcs Quality mini bread board / breadboard 8.5CM x 5.5CM 400 holes:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-Quality-mini-bread-board-breadboard-8-5CM-x-5-5CM-400-holes/32803112223.htmlI can't tell if that's better orElegoo EL-CP-003 3pcs MB-102 Breadboard 830 Point Solderless Prototype PCB Board Kit for Arduino Proto Shield Distribution Connecting Blocks:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EV6LJ7G/**LEDs:**Elfeland 500pcs x 5mm Light Emitting Diode LED Lamp Assorted Kit 7 Colors White Red Blue Green Yellow Orange Purple/UV Super Bright & Long Working Time:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071GQMLBX/**Diodes:**McIgIcM rectifier diode assorted kit,100pcs 1N4148 1N4007 1N5819 1N5399 1N5408 1N5822 FR107 FR207 electronic components package,diode assortment:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M7S2ROI/**Capacitors:**Elenco Electronics CAPK-150DEL 150 Capacitor Component Kit In Plastic Case:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005I5M67W/**Resistors:**64 values 1280pcs 1 ohm - 10M ohm 1/4W Metal Film Resistors Assortment Kit:https://www.ebay.com/itm/64-values-1280pcs-1-ohm-10M-ohm-1-4W-Metal-Film-Resistors-Assortment-Kit/261374861457This comes with 20 resistors of each ranging from 1 ohm to 10M ohm:https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/79UAAOSwySlZ-uUL/s-l500.jpg**Transistors:**Hilitchi 24-Values 2N2222-S9018/BC327-BC558 NPN PNP Power General Purpose Transistors Assortment Kit - Pack of 840:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y4M6SXV/ref=ox_sc_act_title_7?smid=AYI27JSX7SHMW&psc=1I assume this has everything I need for the foreseeable future but maybe there is a better kit?**Male to Male Breadboard Jumper Wires**High Quality 65pcs Male To Male Breadboard Wires Jumper Cable Bread Board Wires:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-65pcs-Male-To-Male-Breadboard-Wires-Jumper-Cable-Bread-Board-Wires/32800860317.htmlProbably missing several other obvious things...

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 07:21:16 pm
content: A variable 60Hz AC supply you'll likely not need very often; normally you work with a DC supply and variable frequency AC signal generatoras a starter project, you can build your own variable DC supply with an LM317, or if you want with current limiting with the venerable LM723, which actually still has a very good noise figure compared to the LM317

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 07:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: HB9EVI on July 20, 2018, 07:21:16 pmI had always heard though that this was less suitable as a beginner project since I'd have to mess around with mains? Or is that not true?

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 07:28:24 pm
content: You can get a fixed 12V / 15V wall power supply to power the variable LM317 DC supply you will build, no need to mess with mains. Or you can get one of the pre-assembled ones like the DROK Numerical Control Voltage Regulator DC 5-32V to 0-30V 5A Buck Converter. They come assembled with nice LED displays.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 07:36:09 pm
content: That's awfully a lot of things for a $1000 dollars. I'm afraid you are choosing things without knowing much about most of them. (sorry, I'm being honest here) To get into electronics, all you need at beginning is a good soldering iron, and a multi-meter, perhaps along with basic tools you can buy anywhere. Everything else, you can buy and add when you have a need.I bet you won't need a scope for quite some time. De-soldering, I won't even mess with solder wick or pump. I can make do with soldering iron and a swift hand move. Once you really need one, I'd suggest buying something good, like Hakko for $250 or so. TO ME, anything else is just problem. I went through many choices and until I found Hakko, I didn't know how EASY it was.You really don't n need A/C power supply. Initially, you won't be needing anything but say, 5V and 12V DC. You can make, buy used, etc. If you are coming near Orlando, Florida, I'll give you one. (honest!)50Mhz scope, you will probably regret. I'd buy nothing short of 100Mhz and if buying today, I'll probably go for more like 200Mhz, 4 channels. It's not the frequency of what you are measuring that matters. It really has to do with highest frequency COMPONNT of a given signal.I'm not sure why wallwart is in here.... a decent power supply (above) will do just fine. After 30some years, I still don't have a helping hand. I can hold two pliers in one hand and soldering iron on the other just fine. Advantage for being an Asian, perhaps? (Chopstick reference)I'm really afraid you are planning too far ahead. Your needs will grow but depending on direction you take, what you'll need will be different. Quality required will be different. AND.... your taste will be different. I'm more into starting with basics and go from there.I'm sorry, I really don't mean to offend by any of what I said.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 07:42:05 pm
content: Some sort of signal generator might be very useful... I am sure someone will recommend the Analog Discovery 2 (DSO, signal generator, logic analyzer, patter generator, bode plot, etc). It is a nice instrument, but if you like to have knobs and a standalone unit, then the AD2 is not for you. Analog Devices sells the ADALM-2000 which seems to have better specs than AD2, but I have not used, tested or compared it to the AD2.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2018, 08:57:06 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmI haven't really kept up on what's available in lab power supplies, as I have an old Power Designs which works well and we have a pile of HPs at work.But whatever you get, make sure it has a built-in ammeter. It's always good to know how much current your circuit draws, and if it's within your expectations. Too little drawn, maybe something is disconnected or open. Too much drawn (or the thing crowbars) and you've got a short somewhere.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2018, 12:03:31 am
content: Hey!Some comments, from someone who's fundamentally also a buy-for-lifer. I think yours is fundamentally a sound list to start with. (If I don't say anything, assume I agree with either your suggestion, or the comments by someone before me.) Unless specified otherwise, when I say to look for another product, I mean look on Amazon.- DMM: I haven't used that model but it looks great. Also grab a few cheapies (like the Aneng models that have been discussed here at length recently) so you can take several measurements at once. It's really common to need 2-3 meters at once, but they don't need to be expensive since they're not gonna be used on mains AC. (Have one meter that's safe for mains AC, which the EEVblog meter fulfills.)- Oscilloscope: Good choice. I assume you know to, um, unlock its full potential. (I have that one.)- PSU: Forget AC, you don't need it to get started. What you do want is a DC lab power supplywith current limiting. If you're not in a hurry, see if you can find an HP/Agilent one used. (I have a Korad KA3005P, which isn't bad, but also an Agilent U8001A that I picked up used. Loud but really nice.) Having a settable current limit will save you from frying circuits.- Wall wart: Only if you have a specific need. Don't buy it "just in case".- Wire stripper: Look for the Hakko wire strippers. They're cheaper, and verifiably awesome. For electronics (as opposed to electrical) use, I suggest (and own) the CSP-30-1 model. Forget crimping for now.- Holding hands: look at the options from Panavise and/or Hobby Creek. Not high priority IMHO. I've got some, but rarely use them.- Pliers: Forget those and get smaller ones specifically for electronics. If you're looking to buy for life, forget stanley and buy Knipex. You want to have one round-nose (I have the Knipex 34 32 130 ESD) and flat-jaw (35 12 115 ESD), so you can bend round and square bends in component legs. Ordinary pliers with serrated jaws cause damage to many electronic components. Granted, the Knipex are really, really expensive in USA (like double what Amazon Germany charges). Maybe someone can suggest a quality brand that's more affordable in USA.- Soldering station: look at the Pace ADS200 that's been a huge topic of discussion on the forums. It's double the cost the FX888, but it's also much, much nicer, and more future-proof.- Flux pen: it's a matter of taste, but I prefer to use flux paste (I have MG Chemicals 8341-10ML), since it helps hold SMD components in place. I have that flux pen, too, but if I don't want paste, I prefer to apply liquid flux using a brush pen (Bonkote; real ones are not cheap, if it's under about $20 bucks it's a guaranteed fake).- Fine solder: you don't need anything this fine.- Medium-ish solder: either the .020 you've listed, or the .031 (Kester 24-6337-0027) which is appreciably cheaper and is my go-to standard size. I only very, very, VERY rarely use anything finer. (.020 might be too thin for everyday use, but you can always unreel some and twist a double strand of it to double it up — but you've paid a mighty premium for the privilege.)- Solder wick: go for MG Chemicals wick instead. Not only is it cheaper, it's superior IMHO. (Somewhere on the forums I posted a comparison of a bunch of brands. The MG is woven of far finer wire, which I find much easier to work with.)- Breadboards: 1. you can't have enough breadboards. I mean, like… buy a dozen. (Depending on what you do, you might be like me who's better off with more small breadboards, vs a few larger ones.) 2. If you want to buy for life, forget chinesium ones. Buy 3M breadboards which, as I found out, are actually made by a company called Assembly Specialist, whosell them on their own website for 1/3 the cost(!) of the 3M via any reputable distributor. They still cost a lot more than the chinese cheapies, but they're reliable. I still am using mostly chinese cheapies and they're a pain in the ass. Save your ass, buy the good stuff.- Breadboard wires: 1. Buy the bent solid wire ones from Assembly Specialist. The cheap ones are crap, they're too soft 2. Those 65-wire kits are great. But trust me, one kit isn't enough. You will want at least 4 sets. Also buy various "40pcs dupont" ribbons in various lengths, in M-M, M-F, and F-F. They're invaluable.- LEDs: look on ebay, you can find better kits with more colors and/or lower price. Or go on Aliexpress and buy LEDs from molesmell (how the fuck they came up with that name I can't fathom) and CHE LEAD. They carry fun colors like pink and cyan/"ice blue" at good prices.What stands out to me as missing in your list:- Tweezers. Fine tweezers are ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for today's minuscule components. (SMD is unavoidable!) My main tweezers arethese from Wiha, but again, a German product that's overpriced in USA, so maybe someone can suggest a cheaper alternative. To be honest, the 6-for-$10 tweezers from eBay aren't bad. (Just don't go for drugstore tweezers, they're too short for comfortable electronics use.)- banana cables. You'll want a generous assortment of banana to: banana, micrograbber, alligator. (And to breadboard pins, like the jumpers. But you'll have to make these yourself, they're astoundingly expensive to buy premade.) I make a lot of these myself using banana plugs from Pomona, Hirschmann, and Stäubli, using silicone test lead wire from Pomona, Cal-Test, and Mueller, purchased from Digi-Key. But you could certainly use less expensive parts.- hookup wire. You can get nice wire assortments on ebay/ali/amazon. They come in boxes of 5 or 6 reels in a cardboard dispenser box, for each wire type (solid, stranded, stranded silicone) and size you can get them in 2 different sets containing a different 5 or 6 colors (e.g. "A" might contain red, yellow, black, blue, green, while "B" might have orange, purple, brown, gray, and white). Sets likethis. Illustration only, didn't look at prices.For sure, you want some 22 or 24ga solid core and 24ga stranded wire. Old ethernet cables can be a great source for these if you're on a budget: the cable that goes in walls is solid, while the patch cords are stranded.- protoboards. go look on ebay, you can get awesome FR-4 boards for peanuts. Tip: look at various package sizes. Sometimes, it's actually cheaper to get a package of 20 than a pack of 10! (You want the ones that are green with plated through-holes.)- Headers: get some assortments of male and female headers to put on your boards. I find them invaluable for connecting to/from prototypes and breadboards using the aforementioned "Dupont" jumpers. You'll use way more male than female headers. (Accordingly, get lots of M-F jumpers to connect protoboards to breadboards, and F-F to connect protoboards to protoboards.)- cleanup supplies: commercial flux remover or high-% isopropyl alcohol, kimwipes, and acid brushes.- Little component tester, the kind that has a ZIF socket into which you place a transistor or capacitor or whatever, and it not only tells you what it is, but measures it and identifies the pinout. They're under $20 and incredibly handy. There's a shockingly long thread about these things somewhere on here.- Antistatic work mat. Get one that's rubber (not PVC) so that it won't melt when your soldering iron touches it.- Chinese Arduino clones. Get a bunch of Arduino Uno boards for a buck or two a pop. They're great for experimenting. Consider spending an extra $25 on a sensor/accessory kit that has a bunch of parts to play with.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2018, 09:21:28 pm
content: You have a great list but you don't need everything at once. You won't need the scope right away unless you are planning to jump right to microcontrollers (Arduino?). You will also need it when you get to transistor amplifiers. Where you won't need it is learning about basic DC circuits, at least not until you get to capacitor charging circuits.I would argue for 4 channels and at east 100 MHz and, at the moment, there are two candidates that are similarly priced. The Rigol DS1054Z, which I have, and the Siglent SDS 1104X-E, which I don't. The 200 MHz 4 channel variant, the SDS 1204X-E, is expensive and will chew up most of your budget.Really good DMMs (Fluke 289) cost a LOT of money. The EEVblog Brymen is a really good meter as is the new 121GW. They are fairly expensive but not outrageous. As long as you stay away from mains, the Aneng 8008 is a really nice little meter. I use mine all the time in preference to the Brymen, 121GW and Fluke 189. It's just so darn handy!I would get one fairly expensive DMM (Brymen?) and a couple of the cheap meters (Aneng 8008?) because one meter just isn't enough. You need a minimum of two but they don't both need to be expensive. I think Dave did a review of the 8008 and it is really accurate! One of the meters should have a credible CAT rating if you ever plan to use it on mains. I would expect the Brymen and 121GW to be credible. I wouldn't count on the Aneng. OTOH, I started messing with mains LONG before CAT ratings were even invented, long before DMMs were invented (for the civilian market) and long before the current ranges were fused. I'm still here...It can damage your budget but I'm going to recommend a quality lab supply. I like the Rigol DP832 - it's a 3 output PS with plenty of current capability. If you are planning to buy a supply, get a decent unit. Get one where you can SEE what the current limit is set at. Or, don't get one at all! I got along with batteries, wall warts and open frame power supplies for decades. I bought the DP832 a year or so back just because it seemed like a great idea. It was...Eventually, you will want a decent Arbitrary Waveform Generator. I'm going to recommend dual channels up to some modest frequency knowing full well that only the sine wave goes that high. A quality AWG is going to cost a lot. I bought the Siglent SDG2082. I'm not a fan of the Touchy-Feely Chinese brand signal generators, or whatever they are called.I WILL bring up the Analog Discovery 2. It has enormous capability for the price. Dual channel scope, dual channel AWG, 16 channel digital IO/logic analyzer plus an assortment of software gadgets to control it. Yes, it really is fun to get the Bode' plot of filters and amplifiers directly. You can download the software and play around with the Demo device.In fact, I could build a pretty good bench with the DP832 Power Supply, Analog Discovery 2 and a couple of DMMs (Brymen and Aneng?).

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2018, 09:55:36 pm
content: maybe some more remarks:I think a scope is quite a must today, already in early days of electronics; AC is almost everywhere; you have it with mcus, you meet it, when you want to build audio amps, even if it's just a single transistor amp - you want to see, how the amplified signal looks. I fully agree with the conclusion of the thread so far to not go under 100MHz bandwidth, what is achieveable with the DS1054Z.Also I agree with a cheapie multimeter as long as you keep away from mains - of course not those crappy ones for 4 bucks, but one in the range of 30 to 50. But get proper leads and probes to it; those ones coming with the meters are a total pain; I personally like the Hirschmann leads and probes.Don't buy the cheapest tools like screwdrivers, pliers, tweezers. Since they're often used aside from the bench as well, it really makes sense to buy quality - I would recommend the same for the solder iron. I've seen already some of those cheapies; they cannot convince - either the handle gets too hot, the tips are poor quality or impossible to replace, ESD is problem or whatever. It's no pleasure to work with that.I have to admit to not have a good opinion about those common breadboards. The quality is almost always so-so to non-existing. You want to plug a DIP in it and it goes loose all the time, so the circuit doesn't work, all the time you have to verify the packages still properly connect - AND - for everything except DC they are almost unusable because of the big stray capacitances everywhere. they might work still for some analog AF signals, but absolutely no chance even for low frequency logic levels or RF signals. People still use them, but they wonder, why their cirucits don't work, or work erratically - they're a pain in the butt.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2018, 10:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmAs suggested by others, you'll want one decent meter (mains safe), and another couple of inexpensive DMM's so you can make simultaneous measurements. 6000 counts is all you'll typically need, so don't get hung up on that.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmIf you can wait, then do so as something better may be introduced to the market at that time. As per BW, you're wasting your time going with less than 100MHz.In the specific case of the DS1054Z, it can be unlocked to 100MHz, so it can actually fulfill this requirement.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmYou rarely need AC, and you'll know what you need when you get there.As per DC, you'll want one with both constant current & constant voltage capability (CC & CV respectively). CC mode will save you from smoking parts at a frightening rate. And as you're in the US, I'd recommend getting a good quality used multi-output linear supply off eBay.AGW Instek GPC-3020would be one such example that won't cost a small fortune.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmYou can do a lot better than this. Check out Xcelite and see if it's to your liking.Another option would order fromSchmitzin Germany (they make some of the best stuff out there, and is rebranded heavily).Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmAnother vote for the Pace ADS200 instead.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmI'd recommend usingMG Chemicals' 835, and dispense it however you like (brush pen, needle bottle, nail polish bottle w/ brush in the cap, ...).Much more cost effective.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmSkip this. Get a single roll of Kester in say .025" (nice balance for both PTH and SMD). .032" would be the largest diameter I'd go with. Do note the smaller the wire diameter, the more expensive it is (takes additional work to produce).Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 20, 2018, 07:02:43 pmI'd suggest anEngineer SS-02instead.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2018, 10:20:39 pm
content: Thanks for the replies everyone but I feel like tearing my hair out at this point, lol.There are simply too many options and I'm spending hours and hours and hours and hours and *hours* on every little thing and I feel like I'm just spinning my wheels.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2018, 11:45:04 pm
content: Hunt down a free DMM coupon and go to Harbor Freight. Buy a soldering iron, needle nose pliers, side cutters and get the free DMM. PM me and I'll send you a coupon in the mail. Calibrate your DMM using a package of four new 9 V batteries.Build an adjustable linear DC supply. Then design a current limiter for it and add that to the circuit. Or choose a device which already provides current limiting. Do both using the same raw DC supply. Make sure you start with a metal case large enough that everything will fit easily. Use the DMM to set the voltage and current limits and to determine dial settings..Long before I had a scope I built a 5 V supply and repaired a $1 yard sale 12 V supply by replacing the regulator. My first scope was a 5 MHz recurrent sweep Heathkit IO-18 bought at a yard sale for $75 around 1980. You can get a good transformer for your linear supply by picking up an older junk stereo radio-phonograph combination unit.As you encounter the need for better tools buy them, but not before you know what you need and why. Before I got the scope I repaired audio gear fished out of the trash and sold it to make some money in grad school. All I had was a VOM, pliers, dykes and soldering iron.Start by building your own test gear. Read "Max Wien, Mr. Hewlett and a Rainy Sunday Afternoon" by Jim Williams. Build a 0.001% THD audio oscillator. Write a C program to generate a WAV file that sweeps from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. Play that through your PC sound card and record it with the sound card. Calibrate your sound card inputs and outputs using Octave, Then measure the THD of your audio oscillator. You'll now have several things:an analog audio sine wave oscillatoran audio digital signal generatoran audio distortion analyzeran audio spectrum analyzerYou will also have learned the Fourier transform and basic digital signal processing.Or pick some other piece of test gear to build. Build Conrad Hoffman's "Mini Metrology Lab". Pick something you think you understand well and build that. You'll learn a lot in the process. You'll also have more test gear.Electronics is all in your head. Test equipment makes things easier, but they are not a substitute for knowledge and understanding.Mains powered equipment is not dangerous if it is unplugged. If you have to probe something which is powered up, be mindful of what parts of the circuit have 125 V at all times. Don't mess with it if you are tired or have had a drink.

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2018, 11:58:16 pm
content: They're a little old but I found them both incredibly useful for getting together some basics for what I need, everything else I've just been buying as I need it, it's frustrating having to wait but it's better than spending loads of money on things I might never use

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 12:10:53 am
content: Have seen both vids -- unfortunately it led to more questions than answers for me, especially since the video is on the older side.I think what frustrates me is that those vids lack a lot of context / explanation for why certain things are picked. "Get a variety of flush cutters!" does not really tell me what I should be looking for in a good flush cutter, what the tradeoffs are, etc.Focusing on kits and saying "build your own power supply" is not super helpful when half the replies online say it is absolutely not a beginner's project. Other comments involving oscilloscopes are outdated and also don't provide much context for how many channels we might want or why, Mhz, etc.The solder he recommends is similar to the solder I mentioned earlier -- but everyone here has said it is way too thin, for example.Newer solder irons like the TS-100 have come out, and I've seen that video too, but yet again, more questions than answers.(Could go on and on -- I had issues like this with almost every single recommendation he made in that video)Picking parts for a lab is a total nightmare as a beginner, lol. The learning curve is incredibly steep. "Just buy a few x/y/z!" doesn't tell me specifically what to get because there are often so many variants or other considerations to take into account.

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 12:35:51 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 12:10:53 amIt's honestly not, most labs will have multiple scopes, power supplies, dmms, tools etcIt's simply a case of starting off with a few basics and growing your equipment as you grow your skillsDo you know what you're going to use your scope for ? No ? Then you don't need one yet, if you do then you should know roughly what qualities in a scope you need, for instance if you're using scope for audio electronics you're better off with analog over digital due to different things you'll want to be measuring for (distortion in amplifier crossover for instance) that a DSO will be really lacking in showing you over an analog scopeFlush cutters ? They're £3 here for a decent pair, if they break after a year just buy another pair or have spares, you're over thinking things on flush cutters just get one with good reviews and use it until it breaks then buy another because you can't expect mechanical tools to last forever certainly not ones that cut stuff which will dull over time even if they cost £1000 and are made of kryptonite.Engineer make some relatively cheap but terrific ESD safe tools, their range isn't as large as the likes of Knipex but they're just as good and a lot cheaperTS100 is a good iron, there's plenty information if you google, there's even a guide on the cheaper/fake irons on this forum you can look atBuilding your own supply is from what I've been told a great first project, obviously if you don't understand electronics and are still learning how to light an LED without it burning out then it's not a first project but if you're wanting a lab, then you should really have some good grasps of electronics and be capable to at least follow the instructions on the many guides for building a supply, or just buy one with 1 or 2 outputs, nothing fancy just something OVP and OCP with a reasonable range of Vage & Aage to get you startedYou're finding it a nightmare because you're trying to get too much too soon, just focus on the bare essentials and expand as you tinker and find a need for X tool/equipmentUsing google for reviews on stuff is useful too, most of the questions you have will likely have been answered in the past and if you can't find an answer either ask or just learn by trial and error

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 12:41:33 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 21, 2018, 10:20:39 pmIt's known as analysis paralysis! It's pretty common.If you ask 5 engineers for an opinion, you will have 10 results. That's just the way it goes.None of the answers are wrong. I take exception to the GW power supply. Analog meters scaled in Furlongs Per Fortnight are not appropriate when I need 1.8V or 3.3V. Furthermore, I want to know exactly where the current limit is set and I don't want to set it by shorting the output and adjusting the dial until the meter reads something. For decades I got along without a lab quality PS, just to show how unimportant they really are, but when I decided to buy one, I wanted a real PS with all the modern features. Yes, it cost a boatload of money. Dave has reviewed power supplies. Maybe something will turn up in his videos.Start simple and leave out all the high dollar stuff. Get a couple of multimeters and all the hand tools. That Hakko soldering station will be just fine. I bought one for my grandson.https://www.amazon.com/Bundle-Soldering-Station-CHP170-cutter/dp/B00AWUFVY8There are some better prototype boards but they are priceyhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040Z4QN8Just buy the simple stuff and get started. See where the hobby takes you! At this point, you need projects and parts more than you need test equipment. As you move along, you will discover what you really need and then you can do a bit more specific research and make a decision.Waiting for a new scope to come on the market is foolish. It takes at least 2 years before they work out the firmware issues and by then there is another new scope. Which will take at least 2 years to get the firmware debugged. And then there will be another new scope... Better to drive a stake in the ground and buy something that is already known to work. Ask for known bugs over in the Test Equipment forum.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 12:51:03 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2018, 12:41:33 amBut that's just the thing -- if I start with one set of gear and then upgrade things repeatedly over time, I'm spending more money in the long run, compared to if I just bought the right gear right off the bat. I'm trying to minimize overall/long-run cost, because I know once I get past these beginner hurdles this will be a hobby I'll spend a lot of time on.It's also unclear to me what "all the hand tools" includes or what would be considered sufficient.(Definitely right with the paralysis -- I went through this same analysis paralysis problem when I was building my home gym but I eventually got it settled and have been using the same equipment for years now because I bought good/quality parts and not cheap things that will need replacement, so it's a strategy that's worked for me even though it's infuriating while in the thick of it)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 01:16:43 am
content: When you get conflicting opinions, it's hard to say which is correct. Truth is, all are correct and that just further complicates things. Most of us will tell you what we do/use/buy. We can't come to terms with what we don't do/use/buy.Hand tools: xcelite but I'm not hung up on them. You should expect to pay something like what xcelite costs and the $2 Harbor Freight variety probably won't work well. These will probably last a lifetime. There are other good brands.https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dindustrial&field-keywords=xceliteOne diagonal cutter, one flush cutter, one needle nose, one long nose, various driver sets, etc.Search DigiKey for other manufacturers. None of them will be junk, DigiKey doesn't sell junk:https://www.digikey.com/products/en/tools/wire-cutters/234?k=flush%20cutterhttps://www.digikey.com/products/en/tools/screw-and-nut-drivers-sets/249?k=hex%20driver%20setFlush cutters are used to cut leads very close to the surface of a PCB. Diagonal cutters are more general purpose and won't cut very close to the surface. Buy the hex drivers and screwdrivers when you need them.Solder: 0.025" Multicore 0.7 mm I solder a lot of small SMD devices and I simply don't want large diameter solder. I also buy solder paste and solder flux in syringeshttps://www.amazon.com/Multicore-Ersin-Solder-0-7Mm-Diameter/dp/B0001P0GLWhttps://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-8341-10ML-Clean-Syringe/dp/B00425FUW2https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Leaded-Solder-Paste-Grams/dp/B017RSZFQQhttps://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/multicore/386824/82-104-ND/2498902I do NOT mess around with Lead Free so others may choose different products.As to solder diameter, this decision is unimportant because you can always buy another roll of solder with a larger diameter. It's perfectly OK to have two or more rolls of solder. Some people might have 3 rolls. I just have the one... And I buy it in much larger rolls and I think my current roll is about 15 years old. It'll run out some day.I have 3 different widths of SolderWick and all of them serve a different purpose.It is unreasonable to expect people to defend YOUR list when they are using something different. Your choices may be better but they won't know because they are using THEIR choices.Don't overthink things. Get the simple stuff, get started and see where you go.And, no, I can't defend my choices above against anybody else's opinion. Their view is just as valid as mine.

author: Relayer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 01:27:22 am
content: Hello AnyNameWillDo,You're definitely going to need parts draws, as there's nothing worse than trying to find a particularvalue of a component, and in some cases, the working voltage. Get a Dymo labeler as well.Sort by colour. i.e. Yellow for all resistors, white for transistos and MOSFETS etc.Transistors are essential, from the small signal type to the brute power ones.Try sticking to one type of transistor, i.e. 2NXXX USA types, European BC, BD etc, orthe Japanese ones, 2SXXXXX.No point in buying inductors, unless you're into making SMPS or RF work. Just buy to demand.You'll need electrolytic capacitors, ranging from 1uF to 4700uF with voltages ranging from 16V to 160V.Anything higher than 4700uF or 163V should be purchased on demand.A good stock of disc ceramic caps, as well as the MKT or Polyester types. Ceramics from 1pF to 100nF.MKT or Polys from 1nF to 1.5uF.Trimpots from 100Ω to 1MΩ, not the SMD types unless you're going to be doing heaps of SMD designs.Potentiometers, mainly buy on demand, but if doing audio projects, then you'll need a stock of them, notonly linear types, but also logarithmic. And perhaps the dual types as well, but only on demand.A decent multi-meter.A capacitance or LCR meter would be good.An ESR meterA Digital Frequency CounterA DC Lab power supply. Say 0 to 50V @ 5AAn isolation transformer, especially if trouble-shooting SMPS.A good LED type bench magnifier.An ESD mat with wrist strap.But most important of all: A Fozgene RectifierRegards,Relayer

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 01:35:37 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 12:10:53 amWell, I'm 65, maybe things have changed, but building a power supply was a standard beginners project when my Dad was a teenager in 1935 and still was when I was in my 20's. And in my Dad's day the power supply was 200+ volts. Anything you built used tubes and needed several hundred volts. So before you could build *anything* you had to build a HV PS.Yes, you *do* need to learn how to work with mains voltages. That's a great place to start. I've read many tales of woe in this forum because someone had not learned that and then blew up their DSO or other instrument.It's sort of like learning to cross the street. "Don't cross the street by yourself." is good advice for a 5 year old, but pretty ridiculous for someone 10 or more years older.For SMD work I bought a roll of 0.35 mm 60/40 solder. I've got multiple spools of varying sizes. You choose the size of the solder to match the size of the connection you are making. The thermal mass of the solder to be applied to the joint and the joint should be roughly equal.And for God's sake, don't start fretting over building up a stock of parts. That will *really* make you crazy!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 01:57:42 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 20, 2018, 08:57:06 pmIf you have a decent budget having a current limiting power supply is a must. I would consider this a decent budget. The ability to set and read back the current should and will save many circuits and projects. Rather than releasing the smoke you can quickly detect something has gone awry and correct the situation before any harm has been done.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 02:10:09 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 21, 2018, 10:20:39 pmThat's why you need to avoid buying everything at once. You don't know what you need, so start with a solid basic set and use it to learn more. As you knowledge increases, the need for specific tools becomes more prominent. This process allows you to do your research spread out over a longer period of time.That being said, I think your initial list was very decent. A Hakko FX888D, a Brymen BM235S or BM257S and something like a single or dual channel Korad power supply. Add a breadboard and you're all set. If you want to get a little more fancy you could add a DS1054Z.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 02:30:22 am
content: Quote from: rhb on July 22, 2018, 01:35:37 amI'm getting off-topic here but reading this made me tear up, lol. My father passed when I was young, and he was into electronics, but we never had a chance to share the hobby together.Quote from: rhb on July 22, 2018, 01:35:37 amAlright, I'll definitely keep this in mind. Sounds like a fun project, either way.Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 22, 2018, 02:10:09 amWould it be overkill to get the DP832, assuming it's unlikely I'll ever need to buy another power supply?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 02:49:19 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 02:30:22 amI feel your mistake is thinking you can buy things that will eliminate the need to buy other things of the same category forever. Perfect devices don't exist and no device will fill every need or purpose. You just need to get a solid basic set and go from there, adding parts tools and devices appropriate to your projects as you go along.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 02:58:30 am
content: I should like to note that building a linear power supply is a reasonable beginners project. A switching mode power supply is not. Even very high skill MSEEs buy them rather than design them. They are complex and it's easy to make a wrong component choice which results in high failure rates.A linear supply consists of a fuse, transformer, two or three capacitors, an LM317, a pot, power indicator and an on/off switch. A bit more if you add current limiting which *is* very useful.But take a look at:https://www.eevblog.com/2017/10/11/eevblog-1030-20-diy-bench-power-supply/That is certainly a good beginner project.Get an eBay LCR meter and put it in proper box:https://www.eevblog.com/2017/09/11/eevblog-1020-is-a-7-lcr-component-tester-any-good/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/$20-lcr-esr-transistor-checker-project/It's minimal cost, the gear is useful even if you get better gear later. And it gets you started. Putting it in a box is a *lot* of the work of making something. I've put $1 of electronics in $10 of enclosure countless times. Things like switches and jacks add up quickly.I'd strongly recommend setting your initial budget at around $100-150. Go as cheap as possible (within reason) and upgrade when the cheap stuff becomes an obstacle.Learn to repair discarded audio gear. Use the proceeds from selling the stuff to buy test gear.My Dad designed and built a HiFi amplifier from scratch (picked a set of tubes and went from there) back in the 50's before i even started school. His company moved him and then was going to move him again 2 years later so he quit and started speculating in real estate. He never got to design electronics again. He was 91 when he passed away. I still have a truckload of WW II vintage parts.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 05:59:04 am
content: Is there any consensus on multis like the 121GW vs the BM235 multimeter? Or why the Aneng 8008 has been mentioned? This one, yes?https://www.amazon.com/Alloet-True-RMS-Digital-Multimeter-Voltage/dp/B072JMBLJS/

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 06:42:07 am
content: The best advice I can give you, which has been echoed here, is to avoid attempting to get everything at once. The electronics field is vast. You cannot, unless you have an exorbitant budget or know precisely what you'll be doing in electronics for the rest of your life, get everything at the beginning and be done with purchases.Also, except for really high-ticket items, you'll probably have more than one of various tools and equipment because most things are good for some tasks and not others. This is also why you often won't get consensus on what to buy. Experience, personal taste, and specific requirements will steer you toward certain products versus others.So, start small. Gain experience. See what area(s) of electronics you gravitate toward and you'll know what else you need and, if not what will best work for you, what specific requirements you have for a product in order to fulfill a specific need.You can still buy quality, but don't expect that buying once will be the end of it. Even something like a DP832 may not be your only nor last power supply.As for DMMs, if you're down to choosing between the 121GW and BM235, start with the BM235 unless you know specifically why you need the 121GW or spending the extra cash is negligible for your budget.The Aneng 8008 and others (even the free Harbor Freight DMM) are often mentioned because it's useful to have multiple meters. They enable you to monitor different parts of your circuit simultaneously. They enable you to compute power consumption by measuring voltage and current, each with a different meter. Do you need that? If you're not sure, it means you don't right now. When you do, you can grab one of the free HF ones while you decide what your second quality DMM will be (maybe by then you'll know if the 121GW is what you need as a primary DMM, relegating the BM235 to secondary, for example).Avoid analysis paralysis: don't get ahead of yourself with purchases.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 06:59:35 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on July 22, 2018, 06:42:07 amLooks like the 121GW is out of stock anyway -- so BM235 it is!Quote from: bitseeker on July 22, 2018, 06:42:07 amFree Harbor Freight DMM? Does it require going to a store or can it be done online? When I Google past threads apparently a lot of methods were either unintended or cut short.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 07:18:27 am
content: I've only done it in-store, so I'm not certain about online ordering. However, their coupons usually say that they're good for both methods. Double-check the fine print on the coupon.Important: The cheap meters generally don't have much, if any, input protection. So, if you get them, only use them on low-voltage, low-energy circuits. You'll see people say or video themselves sticking these meters in the wall outlet and go, "see, nothing wrong." Yes, indeed, they will work. But, input protection (like a warranty, an insurance policy, or a legal contract) is for the abnormal and unexpected, not the normal case.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 07:39:57 am
content: There have also been a few mentions of Pace ADS200.Is this a better pick over something like the TS100 or the Hakko FX888D?(The TS100 looks interesting but it's hard to find a definitive / official seller and I can't tell if the one here on Amazon is legitimate:https://www.amazon.com/UY-CHAN-Programmable-Pocket-size-Acceleration/dp/B01MDTO6X7/(even so it appears to only be the iron and is missing things like a stand, a cable, tip cleaner, etc) I'd rather get a station that actually has everything you need to use it.Pace ADS200 looks interesting as well but is pricier (no reviews on Amazon + unclear if this has the heater in the tip like the TS100)

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 08:44:29 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2018, 12:41:33 amI.e. let your projects determine your needs. Been doing this for some 45 years now. It is absolutely impossibe to guess what your future needs are going to be. So simply start your project(s) and see what you will need.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 08:53:33 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 21, 2018, 10:20:39 pmPerhaps you are. I get the feeling you are putting too my emphasis on trying to get everything "right" the first time.What kinds ofprojects are you going to work on first? Buy things you specifically need for those projects and those projects alone! Dont try to put together "the perfect" list and then pull the trigger on it all in one go, because honestly, some stuff you dont know you need or want just yet. Components can be sourced easily enough within days at worst from a myriad of suppliers, as well as tools - we really live in the golden age (depending on how you look at it) of hobby electronics now.Some things will become very obvious once you start working on projects and you figure out what youactuallyneed. Other things may take more time to become apparent. You dont want to buy too much stuff too early and then regret it or determine that actually you needed something else, in vain of your "buy once" goal.If youre going to start with digital projects, like microcontrollers, perhaps a Saleae or equivalent logic probe might be all you need. You'll be able to see your SPI and I2C signals just fine, plus any other signals you may be generating to interact with other things. Some of these even have some limited analogue capabilities.If you want to do analogue type projects like amplifiers, radio etc, the Rigol DS1000Z family is extremely popular for an entry level scope, and you may find that,depending onexactlywhat you are doing, it may last you a good number of years if not forever - because at the end of the day, what you are doing determines what is right for the job.

author: Hextejas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:05:03 am
content: I've found that a pair of reverse tweezers are handy, I use them every day. Similar tohttps://www.amazon.com/Hemingworth-Reverse-Clamp-Tweezers/dp/B00BUBP1FC/ref=sr_1_5?s=arts-crafts&ie=UTF8&qid=1532253415&sr=1-5&keywords=Clamp+tweezers]https://www.amazon.com/Hemingworth-Reverse-Clamp-Tweezers/dp/B00BUBP1FC/ref=sr_1_5?s=arts-crafts&ie=UTF8&qid=1532253415&sr=1-5&keywords=Clamp+tweezers

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:20:09 am
content: hmm, just don't try to use the on smd parts. I eliminated all that cheapie tweezer scrap replacing it with one Bernstein smd tweezer - this one I'm using almost permanently. Imo don't bother with those lousy ones for 99 cents

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:04:47 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 12:51:03 amIt’s unavoidable, and it’s completely unrealistic (never mind maddening) to pretend otherwise. I think you’re taking “buy once” far too literally.On the one hand, there WILL be “mistakes”, in that you’ll buy things you don’t use, or where you like another thing better. You cannot know whether you prefer a flux pen, flux brush, or paste flux until you’ve tried them all, for example. But unless you’re fortunate enough to have access to someone else’s lab that’s got every option for you to try, you’ll just have to accept some redundancy.But also your needs will change as you progress in the field and discover which areas of electronics appeal to you more, and which less.Think of it like this: Let’s pretend that every tool, item, etc, is priced the same: $5 for a cheapie and $50 for a quality one. You could buy the $50 version of everything, but some of those things will not get used as often as you think, so an unused/underused thing is wasting $50 a pop, which adds up to a lot of wasted money real fast. Alternatively, you could buy the $5 version of almost everything to start, and then selectively upgrade the things where the $5 version proves unsatisfactory (frustratingly low quality) or no longer meets your needs as your needs evolve. It feels smarter to me to “waste” $5 items than $50 ones.I am finicky, in that I like the feel of good tools. I appreciate — on an ongoing basis — how a good tool feels good in the hand. Cheapness bothers me, even when it has no impact on the final outcome. But I’ve had to realize that since it’s not realistic for me to buy top-quality in EVERYTHING, that it’s better to selectively improve the things that bother me the most. Pliers was one of those things for me. Screwdrivers is another. But often, cheap tools actually do work well enough and feel good enough as to not be problematic. That frees up budget for the things where it does matter.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 12:51:03 amI assume it means the hand tools listed in your list. As I said, your list seems fairly reasonable to me, other than that you need electronics pliers and cutters, not generic handyman pliers and cutters, which are just plain too big for most electronics use.I will add that as you progress, and you start to want to build projects permanently, in nice housings and stuff, you’ll also need to invest in the “mechanical” side of electronics, like tools for cutting and drilling enclosures, operating fasteners, surface finishing, etc. I think those have been considered out-of-scope of this list.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 12:51:03 amElectronics has orders of magnitudes more options than gym gear. It’sliterally impossibleto know in advance what you will need for all your future projects and tinkering. Accept that there WILL be some “waste”, and that you did your best to avoid it where possible.As for some of your specific questions:- Solder: nearly everyone here suggests 0.025-0.032” (that’s about 0.5-0.8mm) solder as a good everyday size. (It’s been discussed to death on other threads.) Dave suggests 0.3-0.4mm, yet in his videos it looks like he’s using thicker. But again, to an extent it’s a matter of taste, but above all it’s also about matching to the job: for ordinary through-hole soldering, .025-.032” is ideal: it needs to be thin enough to give you good feed rate control, but not so thin that it takes you excessively long to feed in enough solder. As for SMD, the techniques are so different that you’ll rarely be feeding in solder the same way. I have 5 or 6 different solders at home (ranging from .015” to .062”), but the Kester 63/37 at .031” is the one I use 95% of the time. The .015” is far too thin for everyday use, it makes most joints take too long, and it’s expensive, so twisting multiple strands to bulk up is a waste of time AND money. My old Radio Shack .062” is what I use the least. I need such thick solder so rarely that I won’t replace it when I finish it up — I’ll just twist a few strands of .031”.- ADS200: Watch some of the videos about it. Yes, it’s a cartridge-style integrated-heater type, and basically the cheapest one yet from a quality manufacturer. It’s far too new a model to have lots of reviews yet and as you might have noticed, it’s not a brand that Amazon really sells — even their models that have been out for years have no reviews on Amazon. The reason the eevblog community is so excited about it is because Pace is essentially a super-premium brand, and this is their first product that’s not priced stratospherically. (Basically, Pace invented modern rework. Think of it like this: when NASA, the US military, or a defense contractor does soldering or solder rework, it’s going to be done using either Pace or Weller gear. But as an American manufacturer, the US military tends to give preference to Pace over the foreign brands.)- Flush cutters: As I hoped, others chimed in with quality pliers/cutters options that are more sensibly priced in USA than Knipex. (I don’t even have top-brand flush cutters, the $20-ish ones from the local shop work well.) As for which ones: for beginning electronics, any ordinary style will do. It’s not critical whether they’re absolute flush or have a quarter millimeter of bevel. The key is that they beelectronicsflush cutters, and not the big ones for electricians and metalworkers. But I do actually have one suggestion, come to think of it: they make ones that grip the component trimmings to keep them from flying across the room. I have one each with and without this feature, and I find myself using the ones with it most of the time. (Without this, you MUST learn to use proper technique to hold the leads, otherwise they do fly everywhere, and that can include your eyes.)- AN8008 (or other Aneng model): People are suggesting them because at around $20, they’re really sweet little secondary meters. The performance is nice, they have great displays, they’re tiny (so don’t take up tons of space, and easy to take along somewhere) and feel good in the hand. They aren’t up to snuff for mains use, but that’s totally OK for electronics. Most $20 meters feel like crap, and this one doesn’t. (The $1 or free Harbor Freight meters will also do the job as far as basic measurements, but man do they feel junky. I suspect you’re like me and will find them emotionally unpleasant to use, even if they do the job just fine.)- The 121GW has more features than the BM235. But either of those is an absolutely respectable primary meter.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:16:43 am
content: Well, if you decide to work for the first to work on low power low voltage circuits, I wouldn't spend too much for a meter. As you go on working on your projects, you'll realize, that all those handheld meters just suck working on the bench only; there is the issue working with device running on batteries. Personally I hate meters, which turn off after some time, and I hate devices, where the battery runs empty whenever I need it.Imo if you're seriously into electronics, you want to change one day to a benchtop meter with mains supply - so the handheld will get automatically second choice only

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:52:48 am
content: Quote from: HB9EVI on July 22, 2018, 11:16:43 amThis has been the case for me. The responsiveness and VFD screen of my Keithley 2015 has made it my go-to meter. The handhelds (an 87V, a U1252B, an AN8008, and some cheapies) and the Keithley 197 get used when I need additional measurements (or ones outside the K2015’s ranges/functions).

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 12:44:25 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on July 22, 2018, 07:18:27 amThe main input to the HF DMM *is* fused. In looking at one, I rather suspect that the big loop of wire on the 10A input *is* a fuse. Just not a replaceable fuse. The meter is marked CAT II. HF is not a small eBay seller. I very much doubt that they would sell an inherently unsafe meter.A very large fraction of my uses of the HF meters of which I have many scattered in various places is checking for line voltage levels. I'd probably use a better meter if I were planning to probe a 440 V line, but I don't have any need to do that. And wouldn't be particularly concerned if all I had with me was an HF DMM. I was using one of the HF DMMs when I discovered that some 120 V outlets that were miswired in a building with 3 phase were actually at 200 V. Unfortunately, *after* it spun my 1/2" HF drill so fast that the fan came apart and punched part way through the side of the drill. I use a clamp on if I need to measure large currents. You don't need a 34401A, of which I have two, to check a battery. So the battery drawer in the kitchen has an HF meter in it. Nor do I need one to test whether a pair of wires is 120 or 240.I've been using the HF meters for 20 years for *most* routine AC measurements. I've never had a problem other than broken test leads. But I've worked around mains electricity for 50+ years, run 6 AWG service lines, installed breaker panels, etc. My Dad used to drive me nuts pulling 10 & 12 AWG into a hot 440 panel by himself. He died of old age at 91. He wore neoprene sole shoes and made sure he was not in contact with ground. And like Dad, I learned electronics on tube circuits. He gave me a 5 tube AM radio kit when I was 12-13.When you buy better tools the cheap tools are great for a desk drawer kit at the office. When I was in grad school I kept a small vise, soldering iron, etc so I could make up or repair RS-232 cables. Most of the HF tools these days are quite good quality. The fit and finish is usually a good indication.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 03:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 06:59:35 amSorry to confuse you a little more, but you may want to consider a minor upgrade to the BM257. It's almost exactly the same as the BM235, but has a bar graph. That's a useful extra, especially in lieu of an oscilloscope.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 04:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: TomS_ on July 22, 2018, 08:53:33 amA lot of my interest is learning and just becoming more familiar with a wide variety of things -- to gain a stronger command over hardware and how things work, to be able to create whatever suits my needs, to be able to repair things if needed, to be able to modify things, etc.I know how to code a bit so it would be fun to make an app that interfaces with hardware I built myself (for instance maybe an app that turns on/off lights in my apartment, feeds the cats by opening cans, etc). Might be fun to make a radio, a clock, a basic computer, light/LED projects, lights that turn on when it detects nighttime, mechanical keyboards, would be really sweet to make a portable SNES player, power supply, maybe a portable movie projector, maybe a remote-controlled toy with a camera so I can play with my cats with it while I'm out on vacation during downtime, make my own computer mouse, a set of headphones, etc.I'm just spitballing most of these and I don't know how unrealistic they are or not as a beginner so they're more on the backburners until I learn more and get a better sense for what's feasible. But overall I'd say I'm just interested in learning and becoming more useful.I'd of course have to start basic and work up way up through a variety of subjects but that's where my head is at, currently, and why I feel the need to get good equipment up front -- because I know that as I pursue projects down the line, odds are I'll be needing good equipment anyway.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 04:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 02:30:22 amNot in my view!There is no way in hell you can build a power supply with the capabilities of the DP832 or any other similarly competent lab supply.As indicated in another reply, some supplies are simply too difficult to build, even for the pros. What you can build, you won't necessarily want to use. OTOH, in a low-bucks operation, any power supply is better than none.The feature I want, adigital display of the current and voltage settings(particularly current limit) simply isn't available in hobby projects. I have never seen a hobby PS with features like a modern lab supply. I want that feature more than I wanted the money it cost. That's the tradeoff!I have used all manner of supplies over decades simply to avoid spending the money on a decent lab type supply. I simply didn't want to spend that much money. Now that I'm retired and spending more time with the hobby, I decided that money wasn't that important, I wanted a reliable supply with features.Here's a link to Dave's uSupply project - a feature rich design. I don't know where the project stands but the Rev C schematic gives you some idea of how much electronics there is inside a modern PS.https://www.eevblog.com/projects/usupply/Every project you build is going to need a power supply. Ordinarily, you will build a small linear supply right on the PCB and feed the board from a wall wart. You can build this PS at the start of the project or at the end. You can use a lab supply for development or not. I went with the NOT option for decades. I built the project specific supply as the first step on the project. Nothing wrong with that.Or maybe the project uses 5V and you just use a 5V wall wart. Many of my FPGA boards are powered from a 5V wall wart because the underlying hardware runs at 3.3V (and 1.8V).The other day I was building a Z80 kit project. I decided to power it from my DP832 because I could limit the current. Good thing! I had an address conflict and two chips were fighting on the bus. The current limit in the DP832 dropped the voltage down to about 1V, no harm, no foul. I resolved the conflict and the system powered right up. It is clear to me that the adjustable current limit prevented the magic smoke from escaping. Wall warts and simple linear regulators would dump at least 1A (more if the PS had high capability) into that conflict and the results aren't always pleasant.Experimenting: Say you're building a little transistor amplifier, perhaps copying something on one of w2aew's videos. It would be ideal if you could limit the output current to 20 or 30 mA, certainly less than 100 mA, just in case there is a little 'oopsie'. You certainly wouldn't want to dump 3A into a poor defenseless 2N2222By the way, the w2aew videos are excellent! His scope series is linked at the top of this forum.Given that money doesn't seem to be a limiting factor and the only reason for building a PS is to save money, I don't see the motivation. If building a PS is a right of passage, fine, build one for a specific project and use a real lab supply on the bench. Given a decent bench, such a project might be fun.Check out the last video in Dave's uSupply series. He is using 3 DMMs to instrument a little test. And that's why everybody is recommending more than one DMM. Three is kind of a minimum. I'm a lightweight with 5 handheld meters and two bench meters. Others around here have a good deal more.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 04:44:41 pm
content: That's a good point: many beginner circuits could have been saved from becoming just magic smoke with a current limiting power supply. Sure, the components don't cost that anymore what the did in my teen days, where every burned transistor was loss of 1-2 bucks; but it's no fun to blow a circuit just because of a rush of current into it

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 05:04:44 pm
content: Thanks, rstofer. And yeah I would likely only make the PSU as a rite-of-passage, not sure if I'd rely on it in the same way as a more serious power supply.Would the Rigol DP832 be a good choice compared to the Siglent SPD3303X? During the Siglent review video by Dave ---- he mentioned he might do a shootout video between the two but this was in 2015 and I don't think he got around to it.Heavily leaning towards the DP832 as it seems to have everything the Siglent does and from what I can tell has more positive feedback online.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 05:17:43 pm
content: I recently bought a DP832 and it's doing what it should absolutely well; compared to Siglent I like the fully adjustable voltage on channel 3 e.g. for 1,8V circuits. I couldn't say anything negative about it.

author: mathsquid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 05:35:07 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 21, 2018, 11:45:04 pmIs that true of a switch-mode power supply?

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 05:43:15 pm
content: the electrolytic cap on the primary side can keep a charge for a while, depending on the bleeder resistor

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 05:59:07 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 05:04:44 pmThe Siglent might be a fine alternative but I didn't watch the video so I won't know about any warts.It has better resolution that the DP832 in that you can set down to 1 mV. To get that from Rigol you have to buy the DP831 which is just a DP832 with s no-cost-to-them option turned on. Like the DS1054Z in that regard.Channel 3 on the Siglent selects from fixed voltages: 2.5V, 3.3V, and 5V It is not infinitely adjustable like the Rigol. Well, shoot, it wasn't long ago that the 3rd output was fixed at 5V because logic families didn't use other voltages. The Siglent hits the important voltages so maybe the infinite adjustment on the Rigol isn't such a big deal.When I have a device that uses 1.8V, it normally uses 3.3V as well and requires a special power management device to sequence the power. This is typical of FPGA devices and I don't build boards for these, I buy them. Then I plug them in to a wall wart.The Siglent is $80 cheaper than the Rigol DP832 and $400 cheaper than the Rigol DP831 (the price is stupid considering there is no cost to Rigol for the enhanced resolution).I think I bought DP832 because I had already bought the DS1054Z. When it came time to buy the Arbitrary Waveform Generator, I bought the Siglent because of a Valentine project presented Feb 14, 2017 (I think).The project is linked in the following post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-bandwidth-confunsion/msg1293461/#msg1293461I can't find my way back to the project but apparently it was in Chat back around the date above.So, maybe brand loyalty just isn't important. I would absolutely buy that SPD3303X-E I'm not sure the infinite adjustability of Channel 3 is worth $80. Maybe it is... I could go either way and $80 just isn't a number that interests me. The better resolution of the Siglent is nice. Not necessary, but nice.Either would work for me...

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 06:38:24 pm
content: Well, I already have some loyality to the Rigol devices; and I think you mean the DP832A which has the high resolution and all other options already included; the 831 has one bipolar channel and a 5V max channel, while the 832 has instead of a bipolar two independend channels.Like with the DS1054Z you can easily activate the additional options of the DP832 and turn it into a DP832A - with the exception of the colour display.One important reason to stuck to Rigol is the fact, that there are 2 suppliers in CH, while there is none for Siglent; and it quite enough to import ham radio and accessories because of missing dealers, so I have no need to go the same way for the lab devices.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 07:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: mathsquid on July 22, 2018, 05:35:07 pmAs noted, in either instance you do need to have the sense to discharge the capacitors before touching the terminals.For pete's sake, this is an electronics forum. People are supposed to either understand electronics and electricity or want to learn it. I very much doubt that there are many 5 year olds with $1000 to spend on an electronics lab.This sort of stuff is what edited books are for. To provide properly refereed information and advice. The annual ARRL handbook is an excellent beginners guide. The internet is a wildly unreliable source of information if you don't already have a significant grasp of the subject.In fact the OP would be well advised to get that and an older edition of "Electronic Principles" by Malvino or Malvino and Baker. You do *not* need a current edition unless you're taking a class which is going to assign a particular problem. Malvino is a PHD engineer who took to writing trade school textbooks. They are beautifully written and he actually builds all the circuits in the book to verify that he got them correct. The current edition is over $200 which is insane. But it has the virtue of knocking down the price of the previous edition.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 07:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 22, 2018, 07:07:19 pmIf you are referring tohttps://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Principles-Albert-Paul-Malvino/dp/0073373885/I did purchase this a couple days ago (along with several others)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 07:55:26 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 22, 2018, 07:07:19 pmMaybe the point is that a person doesn't know what they don't know. If they were to discharge the capacitor, how to do it safely? Short it with a screwdriver? Probably not! OK, then what size resistor? What is the maximum voltage to expect? How long will it take to discharge? How much heat is dissipated in the resistor? And so on...It's one thing to play on the bench with low energy sources. It's quite another to be messing around with higher voltages and lots stored energy.Yes, eventually, all of the questions are answered and the process is quite safe. But it is not the kind of thing that needs to happen day one.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 09:08:48 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2018, 07:55:26 pmWTF?First of all, the shock hazard from a capacitor charged to 35-50 V is non-existent. There are no capacitors on the mains side of a linear supply. We are *not* discussing working on the HV supply for an oscilloscope CRT.You *don't* use a good screwdriver as, if there is a significant charge, you'll damage the screwdriver. I have a junk screw driver with plastic handle that I modified to form a 90 degree pointed tool to reach the addressing DIP switches on the Emulex SCSI-ESDI cards used in Sun shoe boxes. That's what I use. If for some reason I need to use a good screwdriver I just make sure I don't let the discharge hit the tip. Resistors are for bleeders designed into the circuit, not for service safety precautions. If you do a lot of work on HV PSUs you have a screwdriver with an alligator clip that you connect to ground and the first thing you do after opening the cabinet is discharge all the capacitors. For that a resistor is a good idea so that you don't damage the capacitor terminals if they have push on connections.There's a very basic concept here. Before you go to do something with which you have little or no recent experience, you get a book and read it first. There is a *lot* of stuff I did 30-40 years ago that I wouldn't consider doing today without sitting down and reading up on the subject first.And I certainly would not trust the internet or YouTube with videos where people pour cast iron on concrete floors and similar completely insane stunts. Like the guy who had his girlfriend shoot him with a .50 Desert Eagle with a thick book as "protection".I *do* know what I don't know. That is the single most important thing to learn. That makes further learning possible.Novices would have a lot easier time if people explained "what and how" rather than repeating nanny state "don'ts".

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 09:21:58 pm
content: Be sure to check out Tequipment discounts for members, I forgot the secret code. But you can get the10%6% by calling them and tell them you are a forum memberAlso thishttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/from-no-parts-to-decent-stockpile-best-approach/msg734584/#msg734584

author: jrd
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 09:53:03 pm
content: Your test equipment needs are really driven by your interests. I was once a tube audio builder who later in life got interested in Ham Radio. As a result, my test equipment minimum needs changed - moving from a PC plugin oscilloscope, audio card and cheap multimeter over to purchasing a real 200 MHz two-channel DSO, an LCR meter and yes Function Generator. None of my intended original "investments" lasted long.1. Not sure how valuable a 4 channel scope is for you. Dont forget a 50 MHz DSO at 4 channels = 50 / 4 = 12.5MHz max sample rate if all channels are enabled. This means if you intend to use all 4 channels at the same time for Digital Work, its going to be for very slow 1980s type TTL and CMOS speed circuits. You might be better served by two channels at 100 or 200 MHz for alittle less money, and a purchase of some nice high impedance scope probes to go with the instrument.2. In this day and age of I2C and SPI tidbits, a scope that has built in decode of these bus traffic types is *VERY* useful to have handy for troubleshooting and repairing things around the house. Rigol and Siglent scopes have these.3. In lieu of an LCR meter, you can use the scope to accurately perform these measurements. You dont need a Function Generator, but you would need some accurate source of frequency. Learning to use the scope to perform these basic measurements (and calculations) reinforces good habits.4. You need a good set of probe accessories for both your meter and scope. If you are sticking to 24V or less, then a 1x Scope Probe is fine. But you will need Pomona grabbers, SMD tweezer grips and a mixture of snort and wide probe tips for both your meter and scope probe. You should carefully learn about oscope connection discipline with respect to ground and making floating measurements to protect your scope from death. Very important early habits to master!5. A Current Limited Bipolar Supply (+/- 15V) prevents you from blowing up parts, or suffering fingertip burns, when you breadboard. It's incredibly easy to screw something up and get an op-amp to run off to rails, or dump current through a transistor. The current limiting power supply will let you make mistakes without blowing up parts along the way. Some parts are expensive, you will run into $15 op-amps and $8 JFETs that you certainly wont want to loose.For Tube Audio work - I have a Heathkit IP17, that gives me 0-400VDC to 100mA to work with ; more than enough to prototype or troubleshoot a single audio channel be it pre-amp or power amp. Also, a 10x Tektronix probe. The scope probe has nearly never gone to a Plate terminal,connection, I measure at the cathode or the cool side of the coupling capacitor. Ultimately, tube audio work needs a Differential Probe to do it right, but it can be done wiht a x10 probe with extreme vigilance taken to ground reference!-- Jim

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 09:57:48 pm
content: The regular EEVBlog discount is only 6%.Here.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:04:17 pm
content: Should I be getting something better than the Rigol DS1054Z (when unlocked to 100 MHz), then?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: jrd on July 22, 2018, 09:53:03 pmI don't think this is correct. The 4 channel DS1054Z samples at 1 GHz. We divide that across 4 channels and get 250 MHz which just turns out to be the magic "2.5" number that is typical for sampling. You need to sample at least 2x (Nyquist and Shannon) and 2.5x is the industry standard. All 4 100 MHz channels are sampled at 250 MHz. ETA: Minimum of 250 MHz, turn off unused channels for higher sample rate.The actual 3 dB bandwidth of the 100 MHz unlocked DS1054Z has been shown to be around 130 MHz. There a video somewhere...The closest 4 channel 200 MHz scope is the Siglent SDS1204X-E and it is nearly $800. Their 100 MHz 4 channel is competitive with Rigol and their 2 channel is quite reasonable. We have had this discussion almost weekly since the Siglent was released. Had the more expensive 1204 been available, I would have bought it for the bandwidth. Alas, it wasn't so I bought the Rigol. Some day I might buy the Siglent but I'll let them finish up the firmware. I'm not in a hurry. Nor do I know what issues remain in the firmware, if any.In a scope, bandwidth is everything, except channels. I wanted 4 channels for SPI and I already had bandwidth in my Tek 485 (350 MHz).

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: jrd on July 22, 2018, 09:53:03 pmThe DS1054Z will sample a single channel at 1 GSa/S, two channels at 500 MSa/S and 3-4 at 250 MSa/S. I have had a DS1102E for several years which has generally been satisfactory. I was considering the DS1104Z-S, but in the end bought an Instek MSO-2204EA for the better FFT and higher BW.I have doubts about the quality of the calibration of a "hacked" DS1054Z, but no doubts about the instrument itself. It is certainly an excellent choice for a beginner's scope. The sample rate limitations using 3-4 channels. make it a better 50 MHz DSO than a 100 MHz DSO. At 50 MHz you have 5 samples per cycle rather than only 2.5 which is just barely better than the Nyquist limit of 2 samples per cycle. The sharp cutoff anti-alias filter required at 2.5 samples per cycle leads to a lot of ringing on a step response.

author: mathsquid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 22, 2018, 07:07:19 pmBut the person who started the thread is presumably very new to electronics, so I thought that the blanket statement "mains powered equipment is not dangerous if it is unplugged" needed some follow-up.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 10:04:17 pmIf you want to err on the safe side, you could get yourself a 1 GHz Keysight mix signal oscilloscope. Unfortunately, you need about 15 times your budget for that. There's always better gear and it's foolish to think you can buy anything and be set for life. Even that 1 GHz oscilloscope has its limitations. Worse still, oscilloscopes with exceptional capabilities are often not that nice to live with when you want to take some simple measurements. Horses for courses.Look at almost any lab and you'll find a collection of different devices with overlapping capabilities tailored to the interests and needs of the user. You could buy an expensive 6 1/2 digit multimeter and still be out of luck when you need to carry your DMM with you in the field. In that case a good portable unit is what you need. So what to do? Get yourself a solid basic set and start figuring out your needs and wants. Add to the collection when you want to do something that you currently can't do. There's plenty of solid advice on what gear isn't a waste of money for a beginner. As you figure things out, you'll inevitably add to your collections.The DS1054Z is a very solid oscilloscope for beginners and more advanced tinkerers alike. It comes with a stupid amount of functions for a ridiculously low price. Better yet, they keep their value. You could use it for a while and if you really need an upgrade, sell it for a healthy amount of money. You'll have learned a lot for almost no money at all.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:42:30 pm
content: On reflection, the Siglent SPD3303X has a problem with the binding posts. Non standard spacing is inexcusable. Cheap binding posts could be replaced but the spacing problem is forever. I had forgotten about this issue but I was aware of it. I may have watched the video at some point.ETA: I just finished watching the video. I think I'll just use my DP832. I think I made the right choice.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 10:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2018, 10:42:30 pmI think it's a rebadge of a GW-Instek unit, which doesn't have the issue. Who's rebadging who I don't know.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 10:04:17 pmThere are only 3 scopes at the entry level and two of them are the new Siglents. Study carefully the current state of the firmware before going in that direction. I'm not a buyer, I don't know where the firmware stands.This debate comes up weekly and it always ends the same way - a draw.Rigol:Unlocking the DS1054Z and updating to the latest firmware results in a very nice scope for $350 (Amazon). The user interface is slow and it's never going to improve. Accept it or buy elsewhere. I don't have an issue with it but there is an owner around here who really hates their scope.FFT is, at best, marginal. I do FFT with an Analog Discovery 2.Siglent:SDS1202X-E 2 channel 200 MHz for $379. If 2 channels are acceptable (and for me they are not) then for just about the same price as the Rigol you get 200 MHz and you don't have to unlock anything. I have read that the UI is superior but I'm not a buyer. I haven't studied the matter. Look through the Test Equipment forum.SDS1204X-E 4 channel 200 MHz for $740. This would be the upgrade over the DS1054Z but it's twice as much money and then some. Bandwidth is the most important spec right after channels. This one has it all, good UI, bandwidth, channels, decent FFT, everything in one box. But it's expensive. It is also fairly new, check around the Test Equipment forum for the firmware issues.In my view the DS1054Z is a great scope for the price. Had the SDS1204X-E been available, I would have bought it instead. But that doesn't alter the fact that the Rigol does the job and it does it well. It may turn out that my Rigol gets dedicated to my analog computers. If so, I'm in the market for a new scope and that will very likely be the SDS1204X-E. After I do some research.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:35:10 pm
content: Yeah -- for now I think I am going to stick to the Rigol DP832 and the Rigol DS1054Z for the PSU / oscilloscope.Those two things alone eat up a fair chunk of the budget so I think it's probably a good sign to keep things there for the time being, haha.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:38:17 pm
content: You're in america. Have you considered buying a used tank power supply? (HP 662x like the 6624 and friends) They're loud, huge, heavy but get the job done and more, also don't drop one on your foot.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:45:07 pm
content: Yeah, I was about to mention that, but with a different tack. It's good to get some basic gear, such as a DMM and power supply, that are known good and on which you can rely (or at least send back under warranty if it fails).Then, if you're curious about or are already into fixing things, the US abounds in used test gear. You can acquire A-brand equipment at discounted prices that may work perfectly (e.g., seller doesn't understand the gear) or have varying levels of problems and test/fix them using the gear you trust. It makes for a great bang-for-buck way to build out your lab and learn at the same time.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on July 22, 2018, 11:38:17 pmI live in an apartment and only have so much space / ability to piss off neighbors

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:52:22 pm
content: I have an apartment too. If the fan noise bothers you, you can switch out the fan. Plus, you can just stack stuff on top of it. It's really durable.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2018, 11:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 22, 2018, 07:22:26 pmYes. Despite having fooled around for many years, I *really* learned electronics from the 2nd ed. I worked though a lot of the problems in a bound notebook which I still have. I still want to build the basic example circuits on standoffs with a schematic underneath as an educational toy.After Malvino you should be ready for "The Art of Electronics". For that you definitely want the 3rd ed. Too much has changed since the 2nd.FWIW I usually get a minimum of 3 books on something I want to learn.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 12:15:18 am
content: Quote from: rhb on July 22, 2018, 11:55:42 pmI have this one too (3rd edition as well) -- it does seem to get pretty heavy early on.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 12:34:48 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2018, 11:28:54 pmSee attached for real live DS1054Z application - Damped Harmonic Motion (or RLC circuit).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 12:38:19 am
content: Quote from: rhb on July 22, 2018, 11:55:42 pmThere is the companion lab manual "Learning the Art of Electronics". There is a web site.https://learningtheartofelectronics.com/

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 03:15:01 am
content: Thoughts on handheld tools in terms of cutters, pliers, strippers, tweezers, etc?So far I've recompiled the following:**Pliers:**KNIPEX 34 32 130 ESD Precision Electronics Pliers:https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-34-130-ESD-Electronics/dp/B005EXO072/KNIPEX 35 12 115 ESD Electronics Pliers:https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-35-115-ESD-Electronics/dp/B005EXO068/**Flush Cutters:**KNIPEX 78 61 125 Electronics Super Knips Comfort Grip:https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-78-61-125-Electronics/dp/B0048F601Q/CHP-170 Micro Cutter:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FZPDG1K/**Wire Strippers:**Unsure... would something like this be appropriate? (Not sure if this would cover most cases or if I should get a separate wire cutter)Wire Cutter and Stripper, for 8-24 AWG Solid and 10-22 AWG Stranded Electrical Wire Klein Tools 11063W:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BC39YFQ**Tweezers:**Wiha 44501 Stainless Steel Fine Point Professional ESD Precision Tech Tweezer with Static Dissipative Grip and Hypo Allergenic, 130mm Overall Length:https://www.amazon.com/Wiha-44501-Professional-Dissipative-Allergenic/dp/B0009K3IAK/Seems kind of pricey / unsure if there are cheaper but just-as-good options that would also give me a variety of angled tips.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 01:24:09 pm
content: I buy my tweezers from Sparkfun:https://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=tweezerI like my strippers to include 30 AWG since that is a common wire-wrap size and is typical for 'patches'https://www.amazon.com/Stripper-Stranded-Klein-Tools-11057/dp/B000XEUPMQXacto Knife set:https://www.amazon.com/Xacto-X5282-Basic-Knife-Set/dp/B00004Z2UBHandy to have around...

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 01:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 23, 2018, 01:24:09 pmThanks -- I had come across that Klein set as well but was unsure if it was common to need to strip wires of < 20-22 AWG. How often do you find yourself needing to strip wires of that gauge?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 02:53:54 pm
content: All the time. 22ga is about thethickestyou’ll use for most of the kinds of electronics you described!! Fine wire needs a proper stripper, the thick stuff you can strip with an adjustable stripper or even with cutters and skill in a pinch.P.S. did you see I sent you a PM?

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 04:02:28 pm
content: If you are going to work with microcontrollers, then I recommend you add a basic logic analyzer to your list

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 04:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: TK on July 23, 2018, 04:02:28 pmI do indeed (already) own an... Arduino/Elegoo/whichever. Any particular analyzer you consider a good pick? How is this?https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Analyzer-Ferrite-Channel-Arduino/dp/B077LSG5P2/Quote from: tooki on July 23, 2018, 02:53:54 pmI was probably unclear in my post, the strippers linked are for 20-30 AWG solid, 22-32 AWG stranded -- I was curious if AWG less than this is encountered often enough to warrant getting an additional set of strippers for lower AWG.I see the PM, responding privately.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 04:19:51 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 23, 2018, 01:27:59 pmI don't often strip wire larger than 20 AWG. I have more than one pair of strippers so it's not much of a problem when larger sizes come along.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 04:32:15 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on July 22, 2018, 11:45:07 pmAh bitseeker, good on you for recruiting new TEA members.I agree. Especially for PSUs. New, high quality linear PSUs are expensive. But in the US, high quality, perfectly functioning, used ones can be easily found.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 04:44:45 pm
content: Yea, just a pity that the US market doesn't really show interest to sell overseas - if you consider the insane shipping costs

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 05:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 23, 2018, 04:10:28 pmYou might eventually. But strippers for large gauge don’t need to be made as precisely as the ones for thin wire, so if you get to a project where you need to strip thicker wire, you can absolutely get a cheap pair (or an automatic wire stripper) at Wal Mart, Home Depot, or eBay and it’ll be totally fine, whereas cheap strippers for thin wire tend to damage the wire. I have Hakko strippers for fine wire, an eBay automatic one for medium, and for thicker stuff a Jokari automatic stripper.So I’d go with the ones you linked, and then if the need arises for thicker wire, buy some cheaper stripper for them then.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 05:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 23, 2018, 04:10:28 pmIt is OK. It is limited to 8 channels, but most modern protocols are serial (1, 2, 4 wires).

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 05:48:06 pm
content: Quote from: TK on July 23, 2018, 04:02:28 pmNot sure I understand what that means exactly -- but is there a better option you'd recommend?

author: luiHS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 05:54:25 pm
content: Some of my suggestions:Multitester:much better a bench Multitester, I do not understand why those small portable testers are still used to work at home or in the laboratory, they are very uncomfortable. Small, always occupying a space on the work table that is needed for other things, bothering and overturning easily. The ideal is a bench Multitester, located on a shelf, at a height as close as possible to the eyes.This is my bench tester, a UNI-T UT804, since I changed my portable tester, for this bench tester, the work is infinitely more comfortable.Soldering station:The Hakko are fine, but they are expensive, you have good quality alternatives and better prices. This is my Baku 878 L2, a double station, with hot air soldering and fine tip soldering iron. I also have a 100W MLINK S4 for welds that need power.Electronic components:I use almost everything in SMD, which I buy on reels and when I place them manually on PCBs, I store them in these small boxes, there are several colors and sizes, and they can be assembled between them.For large components, use plastic boxes. Now that I have bought a Pick and Place Neoden4 machine, I will stop using the boxes for SMD and I will only have reels to load into the machine.Oscilloscope:Hantek is a good brand and quite cheap. I have this 2x 100Mhz oscilloscope that also includes an 8-channel logic analyzer. Very satisfied with the product.Power Supply:Nowadays I only use these programmable power supply, they are very cheap, reliable and very versatile. I also have a Chinese variable power supply, but I practically no longer use it.Shelves: it is important to have everything more or less ordered. I bought these aluminum shelves some time ago, they were very cheap, if I had more free space I would buy another set of shelves of these.Advanced tools for SMD:As well as everything I design and amount is SMD, I bought a microscope, a Reflow Oven and a Neoden4 Pick and Place machine recently. Also I have a ton of stencils to apply solder paste to PCB.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 05:54:44 pm
content: Pliers:Skip the Knipex and get them from Schmitz. Better quality and lower cost. My order only took 11 days to arrive.4202HS22(long snipe nose, serrated; you'll want a pair of these for gripping parts being removed from a PCB for example.4221HS22* (short flat nose pliers, smooth; great for bending leads without nicking them)4231HS22* (smooth round nose; also meant for bending leads)Shipped, all 3 pairs would run ~$94 (used xe.com for currency conversion), and they take PayPal.* Equivalent to what you linked.Flush Cutters:Erem 670EP(tapered relieved head allows you to get into tight spots). Treat them gently (no steel, so check with a magnet first).Erem 612N(more of a general purpose size, more meat in the jaws = you'll be able to cut a bit larger wire gauge).These ^ are typically $120 & $70 respectively. Definitely a bargain, so keep that in mind.Like the Schmitz, if you take reasonable care, they'll last you decades. Oh, and they can be resharpened by any electronic cutter manufacturer (it's an inexpensive service).Tweezers:0 SA(these would be a substitute for AA-SA, which is the pattern you linked)5 SA(if you need a really fine tipped pair; particularly useful under a microscope)7 SA(curved tip, more ergonomic IME)The first 2 pair are Italian made and of decent quality (just a bit behind Swiss, which is where the Erem is made). Pricing is excellent on these as well. Typically ~$20 per pair for Italian, and $30+ for Swiss made.None of these are inexpensive hand tools, but you seem dead set on decent stuff. The above list will get you that at very decent prices.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 09:54:00 pm
content: Those are some really nice selections, nanofrog -- definitely picking some of these up as well.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 23, 2018, 09:54:00 pmYou're welcome.There's even threads that cover these things in quite a bit of detail if you're interested. It could save you further funds if you dig and have the patience to search eBay. It's also good to help avoid expensive mistakes. Biggest trick IME is finding out who the actual ODM is; this is where Schmitz comes in.Ideal-Tekis another for top quality Swiss made tweezers.You've not mentioned screwdrivers, but that's covered too.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 10:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on July 23, 2018, 10:49:05 pmI came across this fact as well when I was searching for mentions of Schmitz -- I am surprised they don't come up more often in online discussions compared to Knipex, etc.Quote from: nanofrog on July 23, 2018, 10:49:05 pmThose are what I'm looking into now, actually (that and the logic analyzer) before finally pulling the trigger on this big purchase.Edit: Oh, the Analog Discovery 2 is such an analyzer... now time to compare that to others... found this one: Logic 8 (Red) - Saleae 8-Channel Logic Analyzer:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074Q2H3BF/Edit: Nvm still need to get a bunch of leads too, oy!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 11:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 23, 2018, 10:55:41 pmYou need to fully appreciate the entire scope of the Analog Discovery 2. Sure, it has 16 channels that can be either input or output. And, yes, you can code up patterns to be transferred out. Decoding is a given. And all of that is a very small percentage of the capability of the AD2. ETA: It works as a logic analyzer as well.It has dual power supplies. Yes they are current limited but the limit goes up if you feed the gadget with a wall wart instead of relying on USB power. They are entirely adequate for breadboarding small projects like amplifiers and such. If you need more power, use an external source.It has a dual channel scope with 14 bit resolution compare to just 8 bits for the Rigol (and most others). Fine, that's no big deal, it's just a scope. Right up until you use it as a network analyzer (Bode' Plot) or Spectrum Analyzer or dual channel DMM or Impedance Analyzer.Then there is the dual channel Arbitrary Waveform Generator. Sure, there are frequency limits and it won't replace a $500 dedicated AWG but the features are standard equipment for the AD2.Here's the list of capabilities:Quote

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 12:18:59 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 23, 2018, 10:55:41 pmWiha makes decent screwdrivers and offer more patterns than any other precision electronic screwdriver manufacturer ATM. But there are other brands, and personal preference plays a big role (Were's grips for example).For a starting point, you could get aWiha 26190(3 Philips & 4 Slotted screwdrivers + free 6.3" needle nose pliers). Then add profiles as necessary. Another way to go about it would be using theirSystem 4blade systems (can get into deeper recesses than 1" bits) or theDrive-Locvariants.As per test leads, I'd suggest looking atProbemaster. Top quality stuff, but less expensive than Fluke or Pomona.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 12:19:47 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 23, 2018, 11:52:11 pmAlso came across these from the same manufacturer:http://www.analog.com/en/design-center/evaluation-hardware-and-software/evaluation-boards-kits/adalm1000.htmlhttp://www.analog.com/en/design-center/evaluation-hardware-and-software/evaluation-boards-kits/adalm2000.html

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 12:42:04 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 24, 2018, 12:19:47 amNot exactly the same manufacturer. Analog Devices builds the ADALM devices and Digilent builds the AD2 but the project is sponsored by Analog Devices. There's a close relationship... All Digilent products seem to be sponsored, Xilinx, Micron, Analog Devices, etc. In fact, their logos are on the silkscreen of the related boards.I can't find out very much about the User Interface for the Analog Devices gadget. Clearly it is less money but I can't convince myself that they provide much beyond an interface to Matlab and some kind of library. I stand to be corrected on this.Digilent provides the Waveform software and an interface library. The software can be downloaded and the various gadgets used in Demo mode. Not entirely satisfactory, there is no live data, but it does provide a demonstration of all of the capabilities.There are various options and downloading is free:https://store.digilentinc.com/all-products/software/All of these are targeted at students and highly subsidized when you can use the student discount (unfortunately, they don't have a retired geezer discount). I have probably been using their FPGA boards for 12 years or so. I like them a lot!The AD2 is literally a lab that fits in a pocket. Toss it in a backpack along with a laptop and you have all the diagnostic tools you are likely to need. Certainly enough for experimenting in a dorm room which is their target.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 12:55:25 am
content: I may be misreading things but it still seems like the AD2 has more to offer compared to the ADALM1000, ADALM2000, and the Saleae (despite the former two being newer, as far as I can tell) -- and apparently while the Saleae is quite good at analyzing logic it doesn't have all the tools the AD2 offers.

author: Relayer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 01:06:52 am
content: Hello AnyNameWillDo,You need to seriously gauge what you want to do in the field of electronics.What are you main interests? SMPS design and manufacture, working with audioand/or RF gear, Arduino related projects etc.Its the particular thing you're keen on, is what should dictate in what gear youshould get initially.With some of the examples given in this thread so far, just one item may cost youmore than a grand. You need to be very picky, otherwise you'll have items you maynever use or go broke in buying all the wrong thing/s..Good quality tools, soldering iron/s, consumables, and various components, decentmulti-meter/s are aMUST, the rest are just luxuries.An oscilloscope would be the next buy, but that's if you have money left over.Next item should be something you're going to specialise in, and not get an item cozit looks great in the workshop, but you'll rarely use. See below:Regards,Relayer

author: KWKolb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 01:09:22 am
content: The Analog Devices ADALM2000 is not widely available yet. I was told they were waiting on a part and someone got one in shrink tubing instead of a case. At least one person has had one on order for a year.The ADALM2000 uses freely available software called SCOPY.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 01:18:47 am
content: Quote from: Relayer on July 24, 2018, 01:06:52 amI mentioned some examples in anearlier postbut by and large I am just interested in learning, experimenting, creating, etc.I think most of the tools I've focused on so far have pretty wide applicability in any electronics lab (oscilloscopes, PSUs, multimeters, solder, solder suckers, wick, flux, soldering station, flush cutters, pliers, tweezers, strippers, breadboards, etc).

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 02:27:22 am
content: Don't rush to load up, enjoy the process as long as you can. Buy on needs as you likely already know. Those that are needed shall need hot spare set, and unlikely you can get the same expensive one as hot spare. You know what I am leading to, get the best good-enough FIRst. The good enough was barely good enough last time, but now the quality has improved hugely The kick is gone once you are loaded with the "prized" piece, keep it out there and they are improving as you wait. While you slowly choose, your value of $1000 is increasing (dun know how Trump's vs Moore's law going to work out though)

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 02:31:42 am
content: I should like to point out that the Analog Discovery is *very* fragile. It's far too easy to let the magic smoke out. You're limited to 25 V on the analog channels and 3.3 V on the digital channels. I'd be rather nervous connecting one to an Arduino without level shifters from 5 to 3.3 V. I should not want to find out what happens without the level shifters.An MSO such as my Instek MSO-2204EA is 300 V on the analog channels and 40 V on the digital channels. Those ratings seem to be the norm for Rigol, Siglent etc.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 03:24:16 am
content: Quote from: rhb on July 24, 2018, 02:31:42 am?? Not true. The Analog Discovery digital inputs handle 5V just fine and according tothe reference manualthey can tolerate up to +/- 20V. The scope can handle up to 50V or +/-25V.Of course it is more fragile than a stand alone MSO, but it can do more within its frequency and voltage limitations. It’s really an ideal tool for Arduino or almost any breadboard range voltage or frequency projects.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 03:42:59 am
content: Quote from: rhb on July 24, 2018, 02:31:42 amDigilent lists the AD2 With a 16-channel digital logic analyzer (3.3V CMOS and 1.8V or 5V tolerant).I have used my AD2 with 5 volt logic circuits with no problems at all.The Analog Discovery really is the Swiss Army Knife of hobby or educational test & measurement equipment. When I eventually get a stand alone DSO and AWG I expect to keep the AD for its excellent logic, Spektrum, network and impedance analyzer capabilities.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 04:03:02 am
content: Quote from: Old Printer on July 24, 2018, 03:42:59 amYes, it really is. I have a proper MSO (an RTB2004) on my lab bench,but I still use my AD all the time at my desk for quick breadboard or Arduino or TI launchpad projects. It also is an essential part of my travel kit.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 04:29:05 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 24, 2018, 04:03:02 amWhat's your usual travel kit, out of curiosity?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 05:48:55 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 24, 2018, 04:29:05 amFunny you should ask..I put it together for that trip and used it a few times -though not as much as I’d liked to have. I’m taking it with me tomorrow as I’m working a 24 hour shift and I hope to have some down time.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 01:07:23 pm
content: Hi and welcome to the hobby. Best advice I can give is try and resist being sucked into buying a load of stuff on a whim. Asking a general question like this will get you 100 different answers from a 100 different people who have 100 different opinions on what is best for you. Only you know what interests you and there are plenty of things you can do and learn with a breadboard, a cheap DMM and a handful of parts. Keep the $$ in your pocket and a few months down the line, if you get really hooked you will know yourself what sort of things you need. As you are in the US, chances are there is a hacker/maker space or club you can go along to and get involved with some stuff there.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 02:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: Z80 on July 24, 2018, 01:07:23 pmThanks -- I understand and appreciate the concern, however I do try to do some background research on everything being recommended in this thread to get a good sense of what might work for me.At any rate I already pulled the trigger on the purchase of a bunch of equipment so that part is done -- at this point looking into parts and components (leds, resistors, capacitors, transistors, diodes, leads/cables/wires, etc).So far I'm looking at:Resistors:https://www.ebay.com/itm/112341051881(4 of these)https://www.ebay.com/itm/261374861457(1 of these)Ceramic Capacitors:https://www.ebay.com/itm/122542633519(1 of these)Electrolytic Capacitors:https://www.ebay.com/itm/152015420230(1 of these)Diodes:https://www.ebay.com/itm/273315944592(1 of these)LEDs:https://www.ebay.com/itm/391368927437(1 of these)(I'm assuming these are a sufficient amount spanning the usual ranges of values), trying to use some past posts on this forum as reference, but still tricky.Other components, still looking.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 02:43:40 pm
content: they are all doing just fine; don't forget a set of foil capacitors and some small signal transistors

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 02:57:41 pm
content: Quote from: HB9EVI on July 24, 2018, 02:43:40 pmWhen I search for "foil capacitors" I unfortunately don't see many kits of these.Also should I be doubling/tripling-up on any of those kits other than resistors?How about these for transistors (24 types, 35 of each):https://www.ebay.com/itm/840pcs-Transistor-TO-92-Assortment-24-value-NPN-PNP-DIY-kit-2N2222-S9018-BC32/332682436699Edit: Or this one, 15 types, 40 each:https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-value-600pcs-Transistor-TO-92-Assortment-NPN-PNP-DIY-kit/222509491667

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 03:05:08 pm
content: the cheapest are polyester:https://de.aliexpress.com/store/product/180-st-cke-LOT-18value-10-st-cke-Polyester-film-kondensator-Assorted-Kit-enth-lt-2A104J/1815642_32857807794.html?spm=a2g0x.12010108.1000016.1.69a7706da6eAYo&isOrigTitle=truethey are fairly ok for most proposes, but for example not considered audiophilethen there are polypropylen, CBB and other kinds.polyester are doing fine in most cases

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2018, 06:35:39 pm
content: I am in South Florida and I used this company for a lot of basic components when building my inventory. They are geared toward the hobbyist. They run an email only sale every Thursday and rotate through their inventory putting things on sale from 20-60% off. I just look every week and when they have interesting stuff on sale I order. They also usually have a 6.95 flat rate shipping offer. Worth a look.http://www.mpja.com

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 07:08:11 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 24, 2018, 02:57:41 pmProbably not necessary. There will be values that you rarely, if ever, use. So, the kit is good in order to have a little of everything on hand. See what your usage is like and then buy larger quantities of the ones you use often. Some vendors, such as Mouser and Digi-Key, give price breaks at certain quantities (often starting as low as 10 of an item).Quote from: Old Printer on July 24, 2018, 06:35:39 pmNeat site. Thanks (although my wallet will likely not share that sentiment).

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2018, 12:51:54 am
content: This is No. 1 on my List Chttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/a/msg1341170/#msg1341170

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 06:27:23 pm
content: How about magnifiers? Do people really find jeweler loupes useful? I always got the impression that the magnification wasn't that great -- do people often prefer the head-mounted magnifiers? (I wear glasses FWIW)

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 07:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 29, 2018, 06:27:23 pmThere has been a lot of talk here about this and I have tried several types. I keep going back to my reading glasses +4 to +8 (I also wear glasses)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 08:15:45 pm
content: I use the OptoVisor for most simple things but this visor is a LOT cheaper and more featured:https://www.amazon.com/SE-MH1047L-Illuminated-Multi-Power-Magnifier/dp/B003UCODIAI bought it a year or so back and I really like the lighting. It tilts and swivels to put the light right where you want it. Highly recommended.I don't like the loupe, I lose stereoscopic vision and it just seems awkward.I think there is a discussion on microscopes over in Test Equipment (?) and I think the conversation gravitated toward:https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=amscope+se400-zI don't have one...

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 08:27:42 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 29, 2018, 08:15:45 pmWhich Optivisor model do you use? (there are apparently a variety of focal lengths / multipliers)DA-4 seems popular from what I am seeing (2x mag at 10" focal dist)

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 09:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 29, 2018, 08:27:42 pmThat's the one I use. I also bought a more powerful lens and it works ok but the focal length is so short that I hardly have room for a soldering iron.The DA-4 will work for SMD but I prefer a little more magnification. Not enough to buy a micrscope...The one I linked has two lens assemblies of 1.9x each so nearly 4x. One of them flips up inside the housing to get less magnification and more focal length. I have only had it since April so I haven't played with it much but I think it will work a little better for SMD.For $10, it's hard to go wrong. That's about 1/4 the cost of the OptiVisor that has no features.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 10:20:36 pm
content: I have a dumb question that just dawned on me.What exactly is the purpose of buying more leads if we already get some leads that come with our multimeters?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 11:11:07 pm
content: Multimeters come with probes, occasionally with some other terminations (alligator clips, etc). But the pack-ins are usually much too big for fine electronics use. Plus you need leads for other stuff, like connecting to a power supply.I find that I use banana-to-minigrabber cables a LOT for both powering and measurement. Also, banana-to-header ("dupont") cables I make, both male and female, for probing and powering breadboard projects and projects on PCBs. Both of these types of cables are good for powering and for monitoring a value over time, whereas probes are good for when you need to take lots of measurements ofdifferentspots in a circuit. And you can often combine both, for example a banana-to-minigrabber for connecting the negative to ground, and a probe for the positive for measuring all over. Keeps a hand free.Banana-to-banana are also essential.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 11:40:28 pm
content: I use both genders of BNC <-> Banana adapters.Most meters come with cheap cables and probes. It's the cable that is a PITA. It isn't flexible enough and ultimately applies a force to the circuit end of the connection.http://probemaster.com/

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2018, 11:54:07 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 29, 2018, 10:20:36 pmCheap meters, like the 2 Aneng that sit in my company van, work better with a set of better leads. I replaced the leads with a set of Brymen leads that I bought off of Frankie's site--https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-Silicone-Gold-Plated-Test-Leads-Probes-for-Multimeters-CAT-IV-1000V-/171162377470Some like the Probemaster leads--http://probemaster.com/8000-series-test-leads-only/Also none of the used meters I bought came with leads. I have purchased a total of 6 sets of leads from Frankie and am very happy with them.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 12:00:04 am
content: I guess I am just trying to understand the types of scenarios where I'd need to use a different type of lead. For example I can't even tell when I'd need BNC or spade or minigrabber or alligator, etc. I think the Rigol oscilloscope is BNC? Power supplies often banana plug? So for example I'd do banana plug -> alligator clip from the power supply and then clamp these onto the end of a male dupont wire and then stick the other end into a breadboard or something?Like I am really lost as to how I'm supposed to be using everything.And how do I know which ones are worth picking up exactly? I know a few were linked earlier but they either had 0 reviews or were totally out of stock or super expensive.Banana plus to banana plug:https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=banana+plug+to+banana+plugMinigrabber to banana plug:https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=minigrabber+to+banana+plugAlligator clip to alligator clip (I know, I know):https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=alligator+clip+to+alligator+clipMinigrabber to minigrabber:https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=minigrabber+to+minigrabber

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 12:16:41 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 12:00:04 amProbably not useful unless you are working with analog computers where the equations are patched using banana jumpers. You might need 1 to jumper the two outputs of a PS to add the outputs in series. It would need to be a stackable type. Usually this is done with a wire jumper on the binding post leaving the banana jacks accessible for test leads.If the leads from your PS are stackable, you could always use these to tie in a DMM. Not necessary but workable. I'm not sure how this would apply to a real lab supply which already has instrumentation. But maybe...QuoteThis might be useful with a DMM instead of the more appropriate shielded type banana plug. They could also be handy as PS leads. They're stackable so that handy.QuoteI would prefer the minigrabber and, FWIW, nearly ALL of these are junk. They aren't even soldered.QuoteAlways useful for jumping things together. I prefer them to alligator clips.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 12:23:40 am
content: I build my own banana-to-dupont cables, it's far more convenient and reliable than alligator clips to dupont jumper wires. I've done that in the past, and it's hella ghetto, you end up with stuff coming loose, or shorting out… it's OK in a pinch but you'll be happier with properly made cables. Making test leads is a great way to practice your cable termination/splicing/dressing, by the way.Forget alligator clips, everyone here is telling you "I have 'em and practically never use 'em". Go minigrabber instead.I couldn't even tell you when I last used spades on test leads.Forget the no-name ones on amazon. Go with top quality name brand (Fluke/Pomona, Mueller, Probe Master, Cal Test, Stäubli, Hirschmann). There's another thread on here from someone asking about this, because it turns out the cheap banana plugs on his Amazon-sourced no-names are wiggly and caused problems.BNC is for high-frequency (but low current!) stuff, which is why your oscilloscope will use it (as do signal generators and the like). For now, don't buy any extra BNC stuff, the probes with the scope are more than enough to get started.Lab power supplies use one of two things, generally: safety banana jacks (accept sheathed or unsheathed banana plugs), or banana jack binding posts (accept unsheathed banana plugs, large spades, and bare wire, but not sheathed banana plugs).But ultimately don't sweat this too much. Start with the basics (banana-banana, banana-minigrabber, and minigrabber-minigrabber; I suggest 18"-24"), and buy yourself some flexible wire and some quality banana plugs (any of the brands I listed above is great) and make additional cables as you discover the need for them. I highly recommend the Pomona 1825 banana plugs, because they're solderless with a set screw that requires no disassembly, so you can easily and quickly build a custom cable with them for a specific purpose, and later reuse the plugs for some other cable as your needs change. (Many other plugs hide the set screw under a sheath that you have to wrestle off first.)

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 12:44:00 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 30, 2018, 12:23:40 amI mean how else is one supposed to do it? I don't even see banana to dupont on Amazon. What do people do if they can't make their own? (how DO you make your own? Literally take a banana plug cable, take a dupont cable, cut off the ends, strip the insulation off, wrap the wires together somehow, add heatshrink, voila? Or no?Maybe making some of these would be a good experience.Quote from: tooki on July 30, 2018, 12:23:40 amSo these banana plugs, the screw just compresses down so it grabs onto the exposed copper of whatever wire you feed into it? Is this like crimping?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 01:20:01 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 12:44:00 amI've never seen a banana-to-male dupont cable for sale, ever. I find it baffling because I find them so incredibly useful for connecting to breadboards and PCB headers. (The closest you can get is banana-to-pin adapters, but they tend to be costly!) It doesn't help that "dupont" isn't really the official name for those things, it's what the chinese seem to have settled on calling them. (There is no universal name for them, really.) So it is possible thatsomebodymakes them, but under what name? (Banana-to-female dupont do exist, but are nonetheless extraordinarily rare.)So yes, what you'd do is buy some sacrificial dupont jumper cables (for example, a M-F 30cm, so you can cut it in half and get half M, half F of about 6" each), some nice 20 or 18ga test lead wire to whatever length you want, splice those together (soldered and heatshrinked,kinda like this), and then attach a banana plug to the other end. (Or yes, you could cut a prebought banana cable in half and use that.)I've also made some male dupont-to-banana cables by soldering male header pins (the kind intended for PCBs) directly to 24ga silicone test lead wire, and then soldering that to a solder-type banana plug. But the pin is some fiddly soldering, so perhaps not the ideal thing to begin with. I also do some by crimping dupont pins/jacks, but lemme tell you, affordable crimping tools and dupont parts are fiddly as fuck, and it's a rabbit hole I kinda wish I'd never even gone down. I suggest you start with the splicing method for now.Someone totally unwilling to make their own might purchase off-the-shelf banana-banana cables and then banana-to-pin adapters like the Pomona 4690 and 4691 (female and male, respectively). These adapters work well, but their substantial girth really gets in the way, I find. The weight of the adapter and banana plug will pull a small breadboard or PCB on its side! And they're kinda expensive, at around $5 per adapter.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 12:44:00 amIt's not considered a crimp, but yes, the screw clamps down onto the exposed copper, resulting in both mechanical and electrical connection. You strip off like 1/4" or so. This doesn't work well for very thin wire, hence the suggestion above of splicing the thin wire onto a longer thick wire if needed. Or use solder-type banana plugs for thinner wires.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 02:09:48 am
content: Thanks, tooki.I am actually kind of excited at the notion of making my own specialized wires... one more thing to practice / get good at.I also find it kind of crazy that there isn't a banana -> dupont thing by default for sale. I looked around online for some examples of how people connect their bench PSUs to breadboards and had a bit of a laugh: youtube.com/watch?v=VsEzzat6E9s&t=3m15s-- in the comments someone asks what those cables are because they've looked everywhere, and the the author says "I think the search term 'banana plugs' could help. These cables are very old (>10 years) and, moreover, I did not buy them. Therefore, I am not able to give you the exact name :/﻿" (i.e. he likely made them himself, too)Crazy to me that these aren't a standard thing!What crimping tools / crimp connectors do you think are worth looking into? Or are a variety of tools needed for a variety of situations?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 03:18:48 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 02:09:48 amGood crimping requires a really good match between tool and connector, and that's only guaranteed by using name-brand connectors and the official tooling, which ranges between "damn that's expensive" and "jesus h christ is the tool made out of solid gold forged in fires fueled by unicorn blood?".That's an exaggeration for large, reasonably standardized connectors like lugs and spades. Those are fairly interchangeable and OK tools can be bought on a normal budget. The same cannot be said for small connectors. They require precisely ground dies (which you cannot find in a cheap chinese tool), and the slight differences in connector shapes end up requiring different tooling, lest you simply crush other parts of the connector. It's absolutely not worth getting into at this phase of your hobby.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 03:39:07 am
content: Oh nice, I think these are the banana connectors you mentioned, only like $2 apiece on Digikey:https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/p/pomona-electronics/1825-series-banana-plugsAlthough I also need to go figure out what size the PSU would accept just to be safe.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 04:00:17 am
content: Yes, those are the ones!What size what? A banana plug is a standard size (4mm), with a fairly large tolerance for variation since the plugs are springy.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 04:17:40 am
content: Ah okay.I presume I should get a few red/black/green to match the PSU (3 red 3 black 1 green)

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 04:52:04 am
content: FYI take a look at these minishttps://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/pomona-electronics/3782-36-02/501-1324-ND/736657see that the wire enters at 45 degrees. This is a good mini. I once found some on Aliexpress and they were expensive (seems like $3 ea) and I made some mini to mini cables with 18 ga silicone wire. They came out nice.The cheap minis at 90 degrees are POS. I threw all mine away.This is a good way to check quality

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 04:52:32 am
content: You could use the banana to gripper jumpers to power a prototype board by using pin headers in the board. You don't necessarily have to cut and patch jumpers.Just look for 0.025' square pin headers. They usually come with 40 pins and can be cut to length. I can't find them on Digikey right now but I also buy the 6 pin headers from Digilenthttps://store.digilentinc.com/6-pin-header-gender-changer-5-pack/Some gripper clips I have used have a 0.025" opening on the nose for connecting vertically to this type of header. Not necessary but nice...

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 04:58:33 am
content: Regarding all these connectors, leads, etc: How many of these should I probably be picking up anyhow?https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/pomona-electronics/3782-36-02/501-1324-ND/736657looks quite nice (as ez24 linked)... maybe I should just get all my connectors/leads here (haven't ordered any ICs/logic chips/etc yet so I can just pile all of this into the same order and hopefully get free shipping).Or would it be better to get minigrabber connectors similar to the Pomona banana-plug connectors with the screws to make everything even more modular? (not sure if these even exist) -- I do see individuals here though (filtering on Pomona and Minigrabber):https://www.digikey.com/products/en/test-and-measurement/test-clips-grabbers-hooks/620?k=&pkeyword=&v=501&pv183=5046&FV=ffe0026c&quantity=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&pageSize=500

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 05:39:46 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 04:58:33 amI would say 3 sets. One for the PS and one for each multimeter ( two - one for V and one for I )As others have said be sure to check out "Frankie" (actually now it is his brother). Good response from members:https://www.ebay.com/str/99centHobbies

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 05:46:14 am
content: I'll check that out -- thanks.I'm a little lost what the differences are between all these Pomona Minigrabbers...Edit: Ah according to the comparison tool it appears the only real difference is the "Termination", e.g.Solder, 0.090" (2.29mm) Wire Opening vs. Solder, 0.144" (3.66mm) Wire Opening(Minigrabber 3925 vs Minigrabber 4555 series)Although there's also a Minigrabber 4176 that otherwise matches the termination of the Minigrabber 3925 and seems more expensive than just getting two of the previous:(and in fact appear to have the same data sheet). Whaaaaat.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 10:44:01 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 30, 2018, 04:52:32 amFYI, I donotrecommend using square pin headers on breadboards, in particular, not on cheap breadboards. They're too thick and splay the contacts. Machined headers are thinner and work better.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 05:46:14 amGotta read the whole datasheet, man.It's titled "Model 3925 & Kits 4176-02 & 5522"Here's what it says under ORDERING INFORMATION:Quote

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 12:55:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 30, 2018, 10:44:01 amI'm referring to two 3925 vs one 4176 pricewise iirc.At any rate I'm still unsure what to get in terms of quantity / type for all this banana/minigrabber stuff. Better to get the detachables or the full cord? Perhaps additional wire too of a certain gauge?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 04:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 12:55:48 pmMy go to wire is 18 ga stranded silicon. My guess most use smaller wire, ie 20 gaI also use wire assortments from Harbor Freight and Amazon

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 05:02:43 pm
content: Forget wall warts and crimper and helping handsyou'll need a good power supply first.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 06:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on July 30, 2018, 04:46:41 pmI believe your guess is correct (I think) -- the datasheet suggests suggests it's 20 AWG:https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Pomona%20PDFs/3782.pdf"Wire: 20 AWG, stranding 41 x 36 t.c., PVC insulated 2.21 (.087) O.D"However what confuses me is that the datasheet says it's rated for 5 amps:"Current: 5 Amperes Cont. "...and yet when I look up the current limitations (from what I can tell, the "ampacity") for each gauge (for copper) online herehttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htmit says 20 AWG has a max transmission of like 1.3 amps.I'm probably missing something / will have to research more on how to get the ratings for different wires.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 07:24:27 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 02:09:48 amEasy enough to manage if using insulated terminals (red, blue, yellow), as you can decent crimpers for this without blowing $500+ for the tool (die nests use the same color code as the terminals). Some non-insulated too.Otherwise this gets very expensive, very quickly.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 07:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on July 30, 2018, 07:24:27 pmI think I remember seeing something like that here:https://www.amazon.com/Titan-Tools-11477-Ratcheting-Terminal/dp/B0069TRKJ0/Had a red/yellow/blue color marking in the jaws. Not sure yet what the differences are. Is this an example of such a crimper?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 07:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 06:39:23 pmWhen I hear "transmission", I think of 100s of feet. Keep in mind that the current rating of good breadboards is 2 amps. Even at 1 meter, the voltage drop at 2a is very small. Try the calculator.I had no trouble running 5a through 18 inch leads. FYI the AN8008 leads could not.If you going to run higher amps then a thicker wire might be more useful. When I made up my leads, I made a lot of 16 ga with alligator clips. Like someone else said, I have never used them. Mini grabbers with 18 ga is what I use.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 07:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 07:25:53 pmYes, that's one example.Even with that one, you could run into issues due to incorrect adjustment and not able to bring them into spec. QC varies quite a bit.I use aPanduit CT-1550(rebrandedWezagCK 100 with a custom die). I've also aPressmaster MCT(uses interchangeable dies*) that will do these types of terminals as well. In my case, I'm well down this particular rabbit hole.* Requires more skill in terminal and wire placement as there are no locators.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 08:02:11 pm
content: nanofrog: Jesus these get expensive... why ;-;ez24: Do the minigrabbers support a fair amount of current even compared to alligator clips? On the data sheets it suggests 5A continuous, despite the mini-grabber being so tiny. Does that seem to hold true to experience? I can't tell if the 5A rating is more the wire, or the metal on the plugs, etc. I would assume the rating would be set to the minimum of all components involved in a particular product.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 08:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 07:25:53 pmThe colors will match the insulation of the appropriate terminal. Red terminal - red die. The difference colors are used to designate the appropriate wire gauge. Yellow is for big wire - like #12 AWG but you'll have to look up the rest. It will be marked on the box.Quality crimpers will produce a joint that can support 25#.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 08:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 30, 2018, 08:05:07 pmFrom what I'm seeing on a few random websites:YELLOW 12-10 AWGBLUE 16-14 AWGRED 22-16 AWGI guess 13 AWG gets left out cold.It would appear that for the most part we'd likely be dealing with red terminals.Edit: Looks like the colors start cycling a bit:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimp_(electrical)#Wire_gauge_insulation_colors

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 10:32:46 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 08:02:11 pmI have no problems at 5a with mine but I made up my own leads using good grabbers from Aliexpress (cannot find them now). Look at this rating, 10ahttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Silicone-Test-Leads-with-Sprung-Hooks-and-Female-Banana-Connectors-1-Pair/200906287163?hash=item2ec6f2a83b:g:nCsAAMXQq8BQ5cSgIt would be interesting to know if they can do 10aThese might be what I used -->https://www.ebay.com/itm/Copper-Sprung-Hook-Mini-Grabber-Hook-Gripper-Test-Probe-5-Colours/171002587855?hash=item27d08c6acf:m:mNh93a8eMPII-FnWWBJx-lw&var=470238327263I ordered 6 sets of these to make some more leads, I want to throw away my cheap leads

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 11:19:14 pm
content: When it comes to stackable banana plugs, I would prefer to buy them pre-molded rather than side wire them where the wire leaves at 90 degrees to the axis of the plug. Standard spacing on banana jacks is 3/4" center-to-center and it seems to me that the horizontal wire exit is going to get cumbersome. It would be out of the question for my application and less than desirable in even a PS lead (in my view). Or maybe having the power supply on a shelf with the wire running straight down from the plug is a neat feature. I guess it depends...I would rather buy the cables pre-built and, if necessary, buy them long enough to cut in half to make up two cables with dupont ends (or whatever).https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/pomona-electronics/B-4-2/501-1322-ND/737950This Pomona B series is what I have been buying (among other leads).Page 41 here:https://www.pomonaelectronics.com/sites/default/files/Pomona_Electronics_Catalog_2016.pdfThe 1325 series stackable plug doesn't have that horizontal shield where the wire comes out. Page 32. This would be somewhat easier to use but the safety of the shield is gone. For my voltage levels, that's not an issue. But I'm not going to build my patch cables anyway. In any event, Pomona limits their recommended use in either case to 30V when handling.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 11:26:16 pm
content: Test lead holders:https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=holder%20test%20leadDifferent sizes but I suspect the 1508 Pomona will do just about everything. It holds 0.210" dia cables.Mount it high enough to allow scope probes to dangle.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 01:37:08 am
content: Minigrabber 3925 vs. Minigrabber 4555Termination: Solder, 0.090" (2.29mm) Wire Opening, vs. Solder, 0.144" (3.66mm) Wire OpeningAny advice on picking one or the other? Picking the larger opening seems safer but also possibly riskier if it implies more wear and tear. On the other hand I don't know if the other would be too narrow. Most AWG charts seem to ignore insulation.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 02:00:48 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 31, 2018, 01:37:08 amWear and tear? Huh? It simply needs to match the wire. Choose the model that matches the wire you intend to use.I wouldn't bother making minigrabber cables, since they're readily available. Make the ones you can't easily buy.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 31, 2018, 01:37:08 am[crash course in wire]They "ignore" it because theycan'tknow: there isn't ONE size insulation for a given gauge!! (It's like asking "how fat is a bicycle tire?" — well, it depends…)Test lead wire has much thicker insulation than ordinary wire of the same gauge, and high-voltage wire (e.g. the stuff used to power neon signs at 10KV) uses far thicker insulation still. And the differences in stranding means stranded wire of a given gauge isn't necessarily the same diameter (excluding insulation!) as a differently-stranded wire of the same gauge, never mind of solid wire, which will be thinner. The only thing that's the same at a given gauge is the total cross-section.[/crash course]Insulation thickness (that is, the outer diameter of the wire) absolutely is on the spec sheet of any wire you look at. So go to digi-key and look for test lead wire and you'll see what I mean.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 02:05:10 am
content: Figured as much -- I just didn't see any insulation data on the wire I had bought, so I was a little unsure. I could probably go measure a cross-section myself but my ruler isn't here yet.At any rate, considering:3 of these:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1825-2/501-1077-ND/603384/3 of these:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1825-0/501-1076-ND/603383/1 of these:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1825-5/501-1247-ND/736243/3 of these:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3782-36-02/501-1324-ND/736657/Which I presume would cover all test-lead issues

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 03:25:50 am
content: That's a good start. Build from there as need arises.FYI, I'd recommend getting the 24" version of those leads. Unless your bench is HUGE, you'll rarely need 36" and it just becomes a mess. (I actually use a 12" set of those a lot, for measuring things with a handheld DMM.)

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 04:18:02 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 31, 2018, 03:25:50 amI 100% agree, I use 18 inch but 12 would be better. 36 would be a pain

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 05:09:11 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 08:02:11 pmA few reasons:Complianceis a huge one. Using the manufacturer's tool for their terminals helps prove compliance. First off, the dies make specific tool markings to indicate it's made a successful crimp. Further proof is provided by pull tests, but this isn't something that can be done in the field, so the tool marks are incredibly important.Cost of manufacture. Good tooling isn't cheap to make. As previously mentioned, the dies are made to high tolerances = takes longer to make. Proper QC (inspection and so on) isn't cheap either.Profit. It's a low volume product, and they want decent margins on it. So the final MSRP's tend to be rather high.Finding the actual ODM really helps in minimizing costs, but good tooling is still on the pricey side for most hobbyist budgets (hint: Pressmaster, Wezag, Rennsteig/Knipex, Daniels Manufacturing, Sargent would cover most, if not all of the ODM's). There's used of course, and even if they're techically worn just outside of the No-Go spec, that doesn't mean they wouldn't pass a pull test (those that need such tooling can't take the risk as there's almost always liability issues associated with it).FWIW, you can find decent used models of excellent crimp tooling on eBay here in the US/CAN. Just need to know what you need and be patient.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 30, 2018, 08:08:37 pmIn regard to 13AWG wire (or similar situation), you'd have to test fit the wire in the intended terminal/s. If the strands fit without being fouled in any way, then crimp it.As per color recycling, that's quite true. But if you see the wire sizes, it's not hard to figure out (hint: the larger wire sizes will use non-insulated lugs, such asPanduit Compression Terminals).On a side note, the smallest yellow (22 - 26) is sometimes represented by green (i.e. seen yellow terminals in the US on old telcom stuff, and a green nest for this size on one of my Pressmaster dies). One of those strange cases I guess, but also rare that you'd run into it.Couple of references that might be of interest:NASA Workmanship Standards, Pictorial ReferenceNASA Workmanship Standards ProgramThese ^ will cover a lot of stuff, such as crimping to soldering and everything else in between. I'd recommend bookmarking these, the first link in particular.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 05:39:39 am
content: Great resource -- thanks!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 05:50:03 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 31, 2018, 05:39:39 amYou're welcome.In regard to soldering, the Pace series are well worth viewing (they're old, but the information is still relevant).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 09:39:09 am
content: ^^^^ this. Best soldering tutorials out there. After watching those, then you can watch the ones from John. Gammell and eevblog about SMD soldering, when the time comes.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 02:25:17 pm
content: Looks like a very good video indeed.Aside from basic storage, final stage for me is buying some logic chips / opamps / ICs / etc since that topic is vast unto itself.So far, mostly tooki's recommendations (not sure how much of each to get, I'm guessing 3 or so in case I damage any):UA741:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/UA741CP/296-11107-5-ND/382197TL072:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/TL072IP/296-14997-5-ND/563039NE5532:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/SA5532AP/296-16995-5-ND/656520CD4017:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/CD4017BE/296-2037-5-ND/67253555:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/SE555P/296-9684-5-ND/380221IRLZ14PBF-ND:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/vishay-siliconix/IRLZ14PBF/IRLZ14PBF-ND/811728IRLB8748PBF-ND:https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/infineon-technologies/IRLB8748PBF/IRLB8748PBF-ND/2127672Also looking into the following:ATTiny85 or Cortex-M microcontrollers (I already own an Arduino as well but it always felt sluggish to me)LM317 (voltage regulator)LM318 (voltage regulator)LM350 (voltage regulator)LM339 (voltage comparator)LM431 (shunt regulator)74HC595 (shift register)I've sort of put the whole IC thing off to the end because it's a bit daunting. I'm aware there are some "outdated" variants out there but I figure they're still worth having for learning purposes.Apparently there are miniature loudspeakers (was looking at the kits for Make Electronics), crystals, potentiometers, thermistors as well. Will have to tack on missing parts from the Make Electronics shopping list, so to speak.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 02:48:25 pm
content: Using Priority Mail for shipping from DigiKey, I get my toys in 3 days. Even with my short attention span, this is fast enough that there is no reason to stock a bunch of components. I have a large stock I will never use and, inevitably, what I have isn't what I need.With Amazon, it's even quicker! Sometimes I can get things the same day.I would defer buying a lot of this stuff until I had a firm need.I did buy the resistor and capacitor kits from Jameco.com but mostly just to get the cabinets. These days I don't use through-hole components so the kit parts are used strictly for breadboarding.https://www.jameco.com/z/00081832-540-Piece-1-4-Watt-5-Carbon-Film-Resistor-Component-Kit_81832.htmlhttps://www.jameco.com/z/81859-520-PIECE-CERAMIC-DISC-CAPACITOR-COMPONENT-KIT_81859.htmlhttps://www.jameco.com/z/81867-240-Piece-Radial-Capacitor-Component-Kit_81867.htmlThere are other capacitor kits but I haven't needed them. I have had the kits for a very long time and I like having the cabinets with the pre-printed labels. To me, the cost is unimportant. I like having an organized assortment.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 07:36:05 pm
content: If you're new to electronics, what to get can be daunting, but it is a catch 22, you don't know what to buy until you learn what what you bought does, which may or may not be what you want, once you do know about it. For newbies, its more cost effective to a get a learning lab covering the basics of analog and digital electronics to make you an informed consumer. With all ala cart gear and parts, you need a focused curricula on those parts to learn what they do, and it won't be as hand holding as the docs with these kits, which is optimized for its parts count for e.g.:https://www.elenco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SC-750_REV-E-3.pdfA kit offer this all in one, and Snap Circuits include adapters so you can use your laptop as a low end DMM, DSO, and FFT, so its all inclusive, nothing more to buy. You'll expense $150 to get you going to know what to really do with your $850 at a later date or and sell the kit off on eBay, recoupe some of your expense. As you move up, there are more "learning labs", such as pro kits, aka evaluation boards, like those for microcontrollers etc., so the idea of using all-in-one boards isn't just for kids:https://www.amazon.com/Elenco-Snap-Circuits-SC-750R-Student-Training-Program/dp/B000IXMP6Q/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_txt?ie=UTF8Enjoy.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 08:06:27 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 31, 2018, 02:25:17 pmFWIW, I find it better to order what you need and wait a few days rather than trying to keep a large component stock.For the stuff you'd find rather common however, you could look intoTayda Electronics(i.e. Chinese made equivalents of jellybean parts such as 555 timers and such). They're based out of Thailand, so shipments tend to be rather slow; as in more than a month. But you can't beat their prices for small quantities IME either.Just don't get crazy, as major distributors can get parts to you in a few days (Newark, Digikey, Mouser, Arrow, Allied, ... in no particular order).;Besides, when ordering boards from Chinese sources, it tends to work out (i.e. order both the BOM from say US sources and boards via ePacket on the same day). So the wait time is minimal as both sources can have stuff to your door in under a week or so.Keeps you from having to stockpile shit you won't ever need again (wasting precious lab/storage space). Not to say you shouldn't keep *some* stuff on hand, but don't get carried away. Plenty of threads as to what's best to keep on hand or not on this if you search.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 08:12:54 pm
content: How weird! Here in Switzerland, it’s the Chinese shipments (whether ePacket or not) that take 2-5 weeks, while Tayda has consistently arrived in under a week!!!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 08:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 31, 2018, 08:12:54 pmThat's seriously weird IME.Though I suspect it's more to do with actual component availability than actual shipping times (i.e. your order calls for x of Y component they're out of, so they hold the entire order until Y component arrives to them).Just a WAG, but in past threads, this seems to be the case based on other members' experiences.Can't prove this myself, but regardless, I've no issues with ordering from them. I can always watch TV or YT vids while I wait.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 08:38:32 pm
content: Tayda is taking about a week for me (ordered some stripboard there) -- Amazon is always a day or two but they're better for certain equipment rather than component parts. Meanwhile DigiKey has any part imaginable but there are so many variants of each piece that choosing among them is tricky. AliExpress/China/etc so.agonizingly.slow for me here in the States, and I'm much too impatient.At least right now I'm not trying to get too specialized per se, trying to stock up on common jellybean parts/ICs and then trying to see which among the parts at DigiKey these correspond to.tooki is going to kill me (I can see him goingalready) but I also tossed in some alligator clips. I know, I know, I know -- they suck and all, I just want to experience the suckage for myself and then better appreciate the minigrabbers.Otherwise the mystery is going to eat at me.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 08:40:22 pm
content: Talking about kits and ATMini, I found that kits from TronClub to be excellenthttp://tronclub.com/Their website sucks and email support sucks but I took a chance on their Advance course and it was on the ATMini. Last year they only had 3 kits on it but there were many lessons. The biggest surprise was the quality of the documentation, it was very very good. I believe they hired someone to write it. Best kit docs I have ever come across. No PDFs and I think they changed the way they present it. They try to protect the documentation, rightfully so.http://forum.tronclub.com/index.phpWorth trying out a kitEdit: The kits are based on teaching theory, not building something. All my "kits" were built on breadboards, no circuit boards.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 08:55:43 pm
content: Speaking of component sources and speed, lately Arrow has been doing free overnight shipping. Their site search needs replacing, but otherwise, if they have it in stock then there's practically no waiting anymore. Pretty cool.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 09:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on July 31, 2018, 08:55:43 pmI had forgotten about Arrow -- I may need to give them another shot. I had tried to find components there, but found their search feature to be virtually unusable (definitely needs replacing, as you say).

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 03:11:28 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on July 30, 2018, 07:27:24 pmThe maximum Amps for power transmission uses the 700 circular mils per amp rule. 5 amps over 20 gauge is only 8.5% the fusible rating for 20 gauge wire which is around 58.5 amps over 10 seconds. This is set as a standard for safety reasons and longevity of the wire shielding .Its not to say that you can't put more amps through a piece of wire . Wire is generally under rated so 10 amps is around 17% the fusible rating for 20 gauge wire.It will get warm but you could also risk shortening the life of the plastic shielding.Length of the wire isn't really regarded as a factor for lengths under 100 ft. Most banana cables are between 12inches to 24 inches . I doubt you'll find any 100ft banana cables.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 01:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 31, 2018, 08:38:32 pmYou’ll get better at it with time. Part of it is learning how to read datasheets. (As someone who worked as a professional technical writer for years, I think I’m qualified to say that most datasheets suck in some way or another.) The datasheets (either explicitly, or by comparing several) will reveal the differences between component versions. This is something I find excruciatingly irritating and time-consuming, insofar as datasheets aren’t even remotely consistent in their presentation (even within a manufacturer!), sometimes hiding even critical differences as casual comments in the text, rather than in the spec tables. So you have to become expert at reading extremely carefully, and often at reading between the lines (e.g. if it says one version of it does X, then assume the others don’t). And sometimes, honestly, there’s no obvious way to know. (For example, I found that most resistor datasheets didn’t provideanyindication of why you should choose this particular resistor model over the other 5 from the same manufacturer that have seemingly identical specs.)Sometimes the difference is just how it’s shipped, like if it’s loose or taped for things like capacitors or transistors, or in tubes or not for DIP ICs. Resistors, for example, come both loose, taped (and rolled on a reel) and taped (and folded into a box) — and thus, if you’re ordering just 20 pieces, it’s irrelevant whether they cut them from a rolled tape or a boxed tape — it only matters if you want to buy the whole package. Sometimes the manufacturer has tweaked something inconsequential in the packaging (for example, to reflect a change in the company name, or if a product received an additional certification, despite needing no change in the product itself), but this also results in a new order code, and Digi-Key will have both, until the old stock has sold out.The other thing is getting experienced with using the Digi-Key search, so you can narrow down to just the package type you want (by which I mean the format of the component, like DIP or surface-mount), as well as selecting normally-stocked only (eliminates tons of parts that are special-order only and irrelevant to the hobbyist due to large minimum quantities and lead time), and in-stock only if you need it now. (In addition to actual component parameters.) The quality of the search tool is, IMHO, a huge differentiator between vendors. Digi-Key and Mouser do pretty well, whereas others (like Conrad and Reichelt in Germany) are just awful. And either way, it takes practice using a given system.Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on July 31, 2018, 08:38:32 pmEh, I mean, you might use them eventually. I think theyusedto be a lot more important, back when electronics used much larger components, without PCBs, spaced far apart. Today’s stuff is just so much smaller that the alligators are just too bulky and aren’t designed for grabbing small things.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 05:23:11 pm
content: I'm getting a little more used to DigiKey and like it a lot.And yeah the inconsistency in the data sheets is one of the main reasons I find them so painful. Like when I have 6 variants of something and I open all their sheets and each one is several pages in different formats, so I have to try to map and cross-reference which aspects are identical and which aren't, and so on.However, DigiKey has a nice comparison tool that lets you hide common traits which I think is very helpful and at least provides some degree of cutting through the lack of standardization otherwise.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 10:01:29 pm
content: That's exactly it. Even the minigrabbers are starting to seem big and clunky. I've been putting one or two of the smd size on my recent Mouser orders.Quote from: tooki on August 02, 2018, 01:28:50 pm

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2018, 10:17:21 pm
content: Anyone used the8174- SMD Gripperset from Probemaster?I like the look of the stuff fromCal Test, but they're definitely a bit on the pricey side (~$125 - $237 on DigiKey).

author: atmfjstc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 07:31:37 pm
content: I'd like to reinforce what some of the others here have said and, with all due respect, warn the OP against spending a lot of money in the beginning on all sorts of tools and components, all at once. I'm relatively (2-3 years) new to electronics myself, and my experience has been that there is no way to correctly predict what the perfect set of tools for your job will be. You shouldn't be afraid of starting small, with a limited set of cheap tools, strictly what you need for your initial simple projects. As you use those tools more and more, and you take on new projects, you will start to intimately understand what their limitations are, which tools you are missing, and which tools you don't really need. This will help you know what to upgrade and when. Don't worry about "paying more in the long run" if you upgrade tools along the way. You'll spend waaay more than $1000 on this hobby, and high-end tools have such extortionist prices that your initial tools are little more than a rounding error by comparisonSame goes for components. The tools and components you keep in stock should be a function of your project. Building robots, reverse engineering, repairing appliances, radio/RF work, power electronics, teardowns, all these require different sets of tools and components, and if you're just starting off, it'll take a while till you find a focus (which may also change later in life).One final thing, expect some mechanical work to go with the purely electronic side of things. If you're building anything that moves or needs to be mounted in an enclosure, you'll eventually need to have tools for cutting, punching holes in things, and keeping things together (screws, glue etc.).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 01:06:16 am
content: Buy to needs! There are things on this list that I don't have yet and I've been playing with this stuff since I was a kid - say 60+ years. I have some stuff and the majority of it was bought in the last year or so. And then only because I could, not because I needed anything. But my projects have always been digital. When I moved to analog, I needed a +- 15V supply so I bought the DP832 and I bought the DS1054Z because it would do decoding (digital). The Siglent AWG was an extravagance.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 01:47:55 am
content: Quote from: atmfjstc on August 03, 2018, 07:31:37 pmI believe the OP has already bought most stuff, especially high ticket items ?

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 04:16:23 am
content: So, AnyNameWillDo, now that you're all decked out with gear and parts, what's your first project?

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 06:41:35 am
content: Not everything has arrived just yet, since I ordered some of the components/gear through AliExpress -- and in hindsight I should have just stuck to Amazon/Ebay/etc. These long shipping times are b-r-u-t-a-l and I'm far too impatient, lol.As for projects, I'm planning to work through a few project-oriented books first to flesh out the theory and fundamentals. A few of my project ideas are probably too ambitious / out of my reach at the moment so I need to work my way up there.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 04:53:46 pm
content: Sounds like a good start. Have fun!

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 05:09:56 pm
content: Thoughts on a good screwdriver set?I do own a small kit of precision screwdrivers but they're skinny, all-metal, hard to get a good grip on, and hard to get sufficient torque on. They were super cheap but I'd like to toss em out.I see Wiha mentioned a lot in older threads, are they still up there? Is there a kit you might recommend or will any of them be reasonable picks?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 06:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 04, 2018, 05:09:56 pmAbsolutely, and they offer more tip shapes/profiles than any other manufacturer.I'd recommend sticking with the classic handles (26190would be a good starter set, and it comes with a nice pair of standard sized needle nose pliers). The $33.33 (full option) gets you a single set.Wera is right behind them (Czech made), but the grips are unique. Seems to be a love or hate reaction to them. Vessel (Japan) also makes excellent precision screwdrivers.In terms of quality, PB Swiss is even better. But they're also the most expensive and don't have anywhere near the tip profiles & sizes Wiha has. I do have them in standard sized slotted and Phillips though.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 07:04:09 pm
content: What are your thoughts on Wiha sets like these?https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00YBYADH6(Or is it better to go with something like you suggested that are full-on screwdrivers?)

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 07:10:10 pm
content: Check KC Tools for good prices and selection on Wera and Wiha and other quality tools. Get on their email list - They have regular sales with excellent prices -much better than Amazon. Zoro tools also has regular coupon sales and they also stock Wera amd Wiha.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 07:39:16 pm
content: Despite cheap price these are one of my favourite screwdrivers:http://www.longjinn.com/front/bin/ptdetail.phtml?Part=P030&Category=11Not sure where to find in US, in here I can get the 7-pcs set for about 10usd/eur

author: Anichang
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 10:02:58 pm
content: Hi, I'm a beginner same of you, so I don't have experience to share with you. But I'm writing to share my approach to the same problem: the bootstrap.And, as a side note, I tought that this thread could be the right one for my first message on this board, to introduce myself: I soldered my first radio when I was 8yo, but I just received my first (cheap charly) oscilloscope last week. In the while I became an IT guy with 50% e-engeeneering bachelor degree. About 5 years ago I went back studying (myself alone, no uni) where I left (flip-flops, digital networks) in order to fill a gap in the market... and I'm still working on my prototype. The time went so long because I can't spend money on this my little spare time passion.I took the long way to bootstrap my lab: DIY. I've built my PSU, my oscilloscope, my 3D printer, my helping hands ... mostly using stuff I dig out from my scrapyard (20 years of IT rubbish), plus some jelly bean components, some arduinos, some buck-boost converters, some radios, some sensors; all stuff I bought 2 bucks at a time. And, of course, Dave, DaveCad, youtube, github, and all the good stuff you can find online thanks to the good people that share with us their passion.I probably ended up spending more than your budget, and the things I've built are not much more than toys but ... they worked "until the next step". Last week I was building an SWR meter and ... I couldn't make it without an oscilloscope that is a bit more than the arduino-based ones; so I decided to jump my next 3 weeks worth of beers&porn, and I bought a 200 bucks hantek; and soon or later I'll have to drop it in favor of a 1000 one.It's the classical hands-on approach that let you grow together with your stuff.Just to make you an example: I've seen tons of opamp primers (note: I use Dave's docs as a reference, and then iterate around it using other good authors available online), downloaded a couple of opamps books, but I couldn't really grasp the opamps until I had to make my oscillotoy. And I didn't get them yet. But focusing the messy dry theory in my head, with a real project that I had the need of ... pushed me to get those tools, the opamps, in my hands and being able to use them. I guessed. Then I discovered the inamps... and the power opamps... and... I want to use them all! I'm hungry of something to make good use of that theory. I'm really looking forward to make the next step. Opamps are just an example. I got better understanding on how to buy the stuff I need, how to make PCBs: I just attached a purple laser on my 3D printer so that I can skip the idea to turn my old tabletop scanner into a UV lamp, or tweak a laminator, or stealing my wife's iron.And I also learned to schedule the shopping so that I can buy in advance from China and the shipping delays don't interfere with my activities; because I manage multiple projects in parallel and pay attention on the parts I can buy with my little recurring budgets.I'm still using my 15 bucks iron ... but I bought a tons of spare tips for it. Because it will take a will until I find all the parts needed to make a proper soldering station. At the moment I've found a 1000VA transformer, I've an old mini-itx case, a couple of arduino placed in the same 'soldering station box', and the 'soldering station' folder filling with projects I've found around. Once I decide which one to follow I'll put in the project box the proper power silicon, and buy the first JBL tip.Again: you grow together with your stuff. If you don't have a timeline to follow, it is way better than allocate resources and procure all the stuff in advance. In some cases planning doesn't help much. Try, as an example, to make a list of opamps to have in the lab: you'll go crazy. The more kinds you buy, the less proper opamps you have in your lab and have to buy more.cheers

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 11:46:11 pm
content: What do you all do for lighting?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 12:09:02 am
content: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-3-ft-Black-Bright-Light-White-Integrated-LED-Shop-Light-54254141/206028863

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 12:11:10 am
content: My general room lighting is a single 60W bulb in a ceiling fan. There is nowhere near enough light to do anything. So I use task lights. Several... Looking around, I count 5. This is actually an acceptable way to work. When I'm messing around on the Internet, I don't really need a lot of light. When I am soldering SMD, I need a bunch and general lighting would have to be insanely bright to cover the room at that level. And it isn't necessary.Task lighting, that's the answer.I would prefer to replace the ceiling fan with a 4 lamp fluorescent fixture but I have been feeling lazy. Maybe one day...

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 12:30:38 am
content: Should screwdrivers be ESD safe?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 12:35:08 am
content: That Commercial Electric fixture I linked to at Home Depot is almost the same lumens as three 100 watt equivalent Cree LED bulbs. I have three of them hanging from the ceiling in my bedroom over the area where I work. I almost need sunglasses. I don't always turn them on, particularly later at night, because I also have a standard clamp on task light with an LED spotlight bulb in it that's sometimes all I need.Here's a (very underexposed) photo from before I added the third ceiling fixture.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 04:17:28 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 04, 2018, 07:04:09 pmI find bit sets to be too short or too fat (bit holding end) to get into recessed screw holes.To do this properly IME, you need to look at the following:Individual drivers (dedicated lengths to reach deep screws). Such as the set I previously linked.Standard 4mm blade systems (you can set the depth on these, just be mindful they like to slip back into the handle).Example.Wiha's Drive-Loc in eitherSystem 6orSystem 4. These are a variant of blade systems that have dimples in the blades that prevent them from shifting from their set positions. Allows the user to set the depth without it changing, and are suitable for reaching deep set screws. FWIW, this makes up the bulk of my Wiha collection to date.In my case, I've the Drive-Loc System 4 set linked, as well as a significant number of Drive-Loc System 6 blades (started with the Security Torx, and added every single security bit available*).* I've used every one of them on more than one occasion.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 07:07:53 am
content: There’s lots of good options for small precision drivers. I’ve got a big Wiha set but honestly some of the cheaper brands work just fine for most hobby work.But with the bigger drivers, it really does pay to spend the money for quality. My absolute favorite is myWera Kompakt 60 set with the ratcheting handle..

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 12:24:48 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 05, 2018, 12:30:38 amI’ve been little by little switching to ESD safe tools, simply because the difference in cost is so trivial.As for brands: I like PB Swiss a lot, but of course, here in Switzerland they’re omnipresent and not crazy expensive. I’ve heard nothing but good things about Wiha. I don’t like the Wera grips (as someone else said, you either love them or hate them.) But I’ll be honest: my first set of precision screwdrivers was Craftsman from Sears, and I really like them. But I’ve been living out of the States for years and haven’t been to a Sears on any recent visit, so I have no clue whether they still sell them.Not that I ever recommend shitty screwdrivers, but really avoid them for precision drivers, because a bad driver can chew up the screw head, making it difficult to extract later even with a good driver. Similarly, bad Phillips drivers do the same thing, so those are worth buying quality. (And consider later investing in PoziDriv 1 and 2 drivers, because a lot of “Phillips” screws are actually PoziDriv, and a Phillips driver in a PoziDriv screw is even more likely to chew up the screw head.)FWIW, in the non-precision screwdrivers (precision = small + with rotating end cap thingie), I love that PB Swiss has color coded drivers, so that each type and size is a different color handle.As for bit sets vs whole screwdrivers: I prefer whole screwdrivers. But buying a screwdriver for every single screw type you ever encounter is both costly and takes up space, so I use bits for rarely used sizes, but while screwdrivers for the ones I use all the time. For me, that’s Phillips 000-2 (precision on 000-0), PoziDriv 2, 2.0 And 2.5mm wide precision flathead, a 4mm wide flathead (not often used), precision Torx T6, T7,T8, and T9, and regular T10. (I’ve been trying to switch to more Torx so I’ll probably buy a Torx set for bigger ones sometime.) I have a decent quality Bosch set for normal bits and an eBay cheapie set of security bits.For what it’s worth, I don’t much like bit sets for precision screws because bits always have a bit of slop (wiggle), and in precision screws, that slop can be annoyingly large compared to the screw hole itself!! There are other interchangeable systems that don’t wiggle, but swapping tips takes so long it’s annoying.With big screws, bits work well, unless the screw hole is recessed and the bit holder won’t fit!I’d start with top quality whole screwdrivers for the key sizes (Phillips 0-2) and go from there as needed.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 04:35:35 pm
content: tooki: Arrived at a similar conclusion... from what I read, ESD can take place very silently and invisibly, damaging and even ruining components. Maybe it's overblown, maybe it's not (many say they go years without an ESD incident just by using common sense and touching something grounded before they begin), but I figured the cost difference was small enough. I ended up getting the ESD version of the Wihas for now:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AN16QI/Also picked up a magnetizer/demagnetizer, a desk lamp / task light, a small side fan, and a silicone work mat to protect the table from heat/solder.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 04:50:31 pm
content: If you are worried about ESD, you should have an ESD mat and wrist strap. Something like this:https://www.amazon.com/Bertech-Wrist-Strap-Grounding-Cord/dp/B071YLJ487Now that it is common to have protective diodes on chip inputs, the ESD thing is less of an issue. I bought the mat when I assembled my new PC because I was using a high dollar Intel chip. The mat was cheap by comparison.Over the years, I have had no ESD issues of any kind on any chips without taking any particular precautions. I have never destroyed a device. But I won't risk a high dollar chip...My Hakko soldering iron is ESD safe and that's the only tool I worry about. I don't spend any time thinking about ESD handtools.Yes, I think the issue is overblown and based on facts as they were in the '70s.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 10:35:44 pm
content: Keep in mind even ESD compliant tools are only effective when there's a path to safety earth (i.e. operator is "strapped in").

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 10:52:24 pm
content: Might be a dumb question but if I am just sitting at my desk, hardwood floors, fiddling around with components on a table, how do I know if I am grounded or not? Do I need to wear a wrist-wrap connected to something else, e.g. the metal rack next to me? If the rack is just sitting on wood is it even considered grounded? Or do I have to touch something metal that's somehow connected to some other metal in the wall that eventually makes its way back to the grounding metal in the circuit breaker?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2018, 11:14:49 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 06, 2018, 10:52:24 pmThe chair is not grounded and certain fabrics (clothes and the chair) generate static electricity. OTOH, if the humidity is high enough and the fabric doesn't generate static, the chair might be fine. That's the way I have been doing electronics - forever.I visited Minneapolis a couple times and it was possible to draw a large visible arc just approaching a file cabinet. The humidity was probably 0 since it was below 0 deg F outside. I would absolutely wear a wrist band if I worked there.You can just touch the BNC connectors on your scope to drain off any charge on your body. The thing is, it's hard to remember to do that. Not really a workable solution.The humidity around here stays fairly high so I can get along with pretty poor practices.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 03:24:32 am
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 06, 2018, 10:52:24 pmThis.A grounding wrist strap has a resistor (~1M) to prevent excessive current and is connected to earth ground via wire to the ground pin on the power outlet (or a grounded instrument's enclosure, ground jack, etc.). Of course, the outlet would have to be properly grounded as well.If you have a static dissipative mat, it may have a snap or jack to connect a wrist strap to.Otherwise, for working with stuff that isn't very static sensitive, touch the metal enclosure of a grounded instrument, computer, or similar to discharge any static before touching. When the air is particularly dry and static-prone, I do this "equalizing" before I touch anything electronic including my laptop to avoid zapping them.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 03:57:46 pm
content: That 1M resistor is in the wrist strap circuit to protect the user from being solidly grounded should they happen to put their fingers in the wrong place. The mat and the wrist strap need to conduct but just barely. A solid copper work surface would not be a good idea.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:43:39 pm
content: Separate question, but power strips -- will anything pretty much suffice? e.g.https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Protector-INSURANCE-TLP602/dp/B00006B82A/

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 04:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 07, 2018, 04:43:39 pmHas anyone ever heard of someone collecting on one of these "insurance policies"?? I think it's pure BS.

author: llopis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 07:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 07, 2018, 04:43:39 pmI really like power strips that can be screwed on to mount on walls/tables/shelves. It's so much nicer to have those plus screwed on and at a usable height!

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:09:30 pm
content: Quote from: llopis on August 07, 2018, 07:44:19 pmSeconded.I use aTripp Lite 20 outlet.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:10:04 pm
content: Ended up getting two of these:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006B82M/

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 08:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 07, 2018, 04:43:39 pmthis is my go to strip because of the switches - they are handyhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005HTQAK8/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:04:16 pm
content: So for whatever reason the demagnetizer isn't working... and in fact, it seems to magnetize.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:16:32 pm
content: Try using it like so:https://youtu.be/Z0gAdLvlrHAOf course, I assume your goal is to have the screwdrivers magnetized.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:19:23 pm
content: Yeah, the magnetizer area works perfectly fine -- but the demagnetizer does not actually seem to demagnetize. And in fact (as shown in the video), it actually seems to magnetize, i.e. both areas are (ostensibly) magnetizers.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:21:48 pm
content: Are you trying it as shown in the video I shared? You were doing it differently in your video.P.S. I think you mean “apparently”, not “ostensibly”!

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:23:37 pm
content: Yes, I tried it like in the video as well (have done all sorts of variants based on videos I've seen online).Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2018, 10:21:48 pmostensibly = "apparently or purportedly, but perhaps not actually."i.e. I'm allowing myself the possibility of being wrong

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:25:52 pm
content: What I noticed is that you only went in with the tip in the demagnetizer when moving back and forth. Forget the sideways wiggling, just go in and out, full length...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:29:41 pm
content: (The difference between “apparently” and “purportedly” is that the former has to do with what’s actually happening, whereas the latter has to do with what’s beingclaimed. “Ostensibly” doesn’t work in your case because the demagnetizer section doesn’tclaimto be a magnetizer. It appears to be acting as onedespiteits claim to the contrary. Sorry, language nerd here! :p )

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2018, 10:46:14 pm
content: Looked around online, right you are, TIL!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 01:15:46 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2018, 10:25:52 pmHahahaha, I just re-read this and man, does it sound like something Beavis and Butthead would be giggling like idiots to…Did you manage to demagnetize the screwdriver?

author: ocw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 03:15:44 am
content: You previously mentioned getting some old standard parts which you can use as throw-away items. While that is okay, you need to get some cutting edge parts as well so that you know more than what an outdated part to do. You need to know how technology has evolved, not just where it started.I purchased an ADA4530-1 op amp as soon as I saw it, without having any initial plans for it. I experimented and came up with my own design of a current to voltage converter which permitted accurate measurement of down to below one pico-amp DC current with negligible insertion resistance. While not designed to maximize its AC performance, it did a reasonable job in that conversion as well.Long ago, I received a sample NE5534 op amp shortly after it was released stateside. Attached is the New Product Bulletin that came with it. Besides listing its Features and Product Strengths, it also includes a Suggested Sales Presentation listing its benefits over the 741. You can see what they had to do on their bulletin when they couldn't enter a Ω symbol on their bulletin. While not my first NE5534, I also included a look at the oldest one which I still have in spare parts bin. It has a 7924 date code on it. The New Product Bulletin doesn't have a year on it, but I think that it was 1977. I used a lot of those in building audio amplifiers for production rooms which needed their 600 ohm capability. It was the op amp to use for those type of projects for many years. The dual version, NE5532 was released a bit later.Like the 741, things have progressed since the NE5534 was first released and there are better options for low impedance audio use. But, its replacements are not nearly as much improved as the replacements for the 741 typically have been.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 03:42:53 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2018, 01:15:46 amQuote from: tooki on August 08, 2018, 01:15:46 amSadly no

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 03:24:16 pm
content: What's a good pair of strong cutters? Something capable of cutting thicker cords, possibly even PCB boards, maybe steel? Just a nice pair of "cut-anything"s.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 04:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 08, 2018, 03:24:16 pmNo such thing, I'm afraid, since those have totally different needs! For thick cords, you want cable shears. For PCBs (assuming you don't wanna spend 3-4 digits on a PCB guillotine), you want large tin snips.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 04:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2018, 04:02:49 pmI had been looking at stuff like this:Cable Shears:https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-95-11-165-Shears/dp/B000X4MQ8CTin Snips:https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-FatMax-14-563-Straight-Aviation/dp/B00009OYFYAnything better / are these appropriate?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 04:17:09 pm
content: I think it's very unlikely you need cable shears. I've been doing electronics for 30 years and still don't own a pair. The thickest wire I ever cut is AC line cords (3x16ga if you're lucky), and those cut fine, if a tad smushed, with the cutters in pliers, or with diagonal cutters. (Not your delicate electronics side cutters, but the ones like in the cheap pliers set you mentioned in one of your earliest posts.)As for tin snips, probably go bigger, so you can cut a PCB across in one cut if possible. I suggest just going to Home Depot and checking out the options. (Or waiting for others here with more experience to give you feedback. Tin snips for PCB cutting are still on my shopping list.)

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 04:32:24 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2018, 04:17:09 pmYeah, AC line cord is exactly what I had in mind, actually (assuming I understand correctly) -- like if I needed to cut the cord to an appliance or something. I don't think I have a pair of "diagonal cutters" though.Quote from: tooki on August 08, 2018, 04:17:09 pmI was just at Home Depot the other day looking for such cutters and all they had were things along the same size, lol.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 07:56:39 pm
content: Still a bit unsure on what all cutters are good to have.I've already got two flush cutters (the CHP-170's by Hakko and the ones by Knipex), but nothing else. What if I need to cut appliance cords or thicker-gauge wire, etc? Or possibly steel wire?Looking around online it appears that using cutters for PCB is maybe not as ideal as just scoring it and then snapping it off like a Kit-Kat at the edge of the table.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 08:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 08, 2018, 07:56:39 pmAs a general purpose precision pair, get a semi-flush grind in a medium oval head. Please note that about every manufacturer uses their own terms, so read their catalogs very carefully to discern which is which. Then add cutters as needed (different sizes, different shapes, different types,...).For appliance cords and heavier gauge wire, a standard pair of 6" or 8" diagonal cutters would do. For steel (hard wire), you'll need cutters made for this. Cutters have wire size ranges, some larger standard cutters can also do small diameters of hard wire. Check the specifications (will be available on decent brands).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 09:04:02 pm
content: As above, for larger wire use regular electrician's diagonal cutters. For even larger, use lineman's side cutters. Larger yet? Use a hacksaw. Too tiring? Use a Portaband or Sawzall.https://www.amazon.com/Diagonal-Cutters-Klein-Tools-J2000-48/dp/B0006M6Y8Ohttps://www.amazon.com/Linemans-Streamlined-Klein-Tools-J213-9NE/dp/B001TKF1BShttps://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DWM120K-5-Inch-Deep-Portable/dp/B001W0ZIK4https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-2621-20-M18-Sawzall-Reciprocating/dp/B00VV0EF4AI have used all of these over the years.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 10:57:53 pm
content: Quote from: AnyNameWillDo on August 08, 2018, 07:56:39 pmYeah, I use the Kit-Kat method, but it's not a regular occurrence for me. If you're doing a lot of perfboard, stripboard, or etching your own PCBs, maybe a cutter is worthwhile. However, unless you're in a hurry, getting prototype PCBs made for you is so nice. We are spoiled for choice nowadays.

author: AnyNameWillDo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 11:12:13 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 08, 2018, 10:57:53 pmI figure it's good to have such a cutter just in case -- I realize it's cheap to have PCBs made, but it's still a fun learning experience to make your own (at least in theory / I think it sounds fun and I plan to do it anyway...)

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 11:16:08 pm
content: All you need to do is look for the name Klein on it, if it is the appropriate size, the quality will be fine. It may not be the absolute best on the planet, but it will not disappoint you. Sounds like you are expecting to be stuck on a desert island for 50 years??

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 11:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on August 08, 2018, 11:16:08 pmI have a pair of Klein side cutters that I have had for more than 50 years. I bought them when I first started working in the trade back in '64. I suspect they are good to go for another 50 years.