Need help on my shopping list - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: rizek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pm
content: Greetings!I am building my electronic lab for the first time. Mainly will focus on analog audio projects and hopefully I'll dive into DSP in the future. After a long research on this forum, I have decided on these instruments;Siglent SDS804X HD ~ 490€Siglent SDG1032X ~ 350€GW Instek GPP-4323 ~ 700€Agilent 34401 ~ 600€ OR Keithley 2000 ~450€ OR Siglent 3065X ~ 800€I would like to hear your comments on this list. Open to hear any suggestions. Please keep in mind that I need at least 6.5 digit DMM and high resolution on the PSU.Thank you all in advance

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 07:40:14 pm
content: Those are generally nice choices, but I wouldn't buy a used DMM unless you're also going to add the price of calibration to your budget.You might also want to consider the SDG2042X, though I'm not sure what the price difference is for you.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 08:25:03 pm
content: Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pmI’m always curious how / why hobbyists need such accuracy like a 6.5 digit DMM…. component / channel matching?

author: 4thDoctorWhoFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 08:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: TomKatt on July 27, 2024, 08:25:03 pmThree thoughts:1) Why not if it's cheap enough.2) Some confuse resolution with accuracy.3) I can afford it so STFU.

author: rizek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 08:55:12 pm
content: @KungFuJoshThank you for the tip. Just checked and 34401 calibration costs around 170€. I also do not want to buy a used one but found a clean one and seems like its in a good contidion. And the measurements are OK according to the seller.I do not think I need more than 20 MHz. And my budget is limited around 2.2k€ in total :'(@TomKattYou are correct sirI will need it for transistor matching. Btw im an electrical engineer, this devices look great on paper but I am just not familiar with the brands.@4thDoctorWhoFanActually, finally being able to afford them also makes me to buy fancy stuff

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 09:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: 4thDoctorWhoFan on July 27, 2024, 08:52:38 pmMy question was sincere, no disrespect intended. And I guess my hunch was on track. I suspect that resolution may be more useful than accuracy for component matching.

author: 4thDoctorWhoFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 09:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: TomKatt on July 27, 2024, 09:09:00 pmNo disrespect taken. I was just being facetious and nothing I said was said in malice.Sometimes humor is difficult over the internet on a forum.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 09:36:59 pm
content: I wonder how many of us have ears that are matched to within 0.1dB?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 09:51:25 pm
content: Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 08:55:12 pmI have the SDM3065X, and I love it. It's been very stable, even from early use, and they're supposed to get even better after more burn-in time. I generally prefer to get something that comes calibrated with a warranty when I can. If the price is close enough, that will always win for me.Regarding the AWG, compare the datasheets for the two devices. The 1032X has a superior square wave, but is only 14 bits. The 2042X is 16 bits, and really nice across the board. See if the datasheets tell you anything useful. The 2042X in the US only costs $499 USD; I know prices are a little different out there.Thanks,Josh

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 10:00:14 pm
content: I would like to say that every SDM3065X has been “correctly” calibrated, the calibration data is not supplied (but is available), only a confirmation that this is the case.So if you buy a new device, it is “fresh” and “correctly” calibrated (or look at the certificate to see when it was calibrated).

author: Hexley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:15:53 am
content: Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pmQuote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 08:55:12 pmCongrats on setting up your first bench.Some comments...As an EE, you are probably going to want to make automated test measurements at some point. Measuring and comparing transistor parameters, for example, is a perfect application. And you mentioned that as one of your use cases...The scope, AWG, and power supply that you list all offer LAN and USB connectivity, with SCPI control. Very good; that will let you use automation software (see TestController here on this site, for example); or you can do your own programming with PyVISA, etc.If you go for the 34401 or K2000 DMMs, be sure to plan for a GPIB adapter so they can join your USB or LAN setup. Though I would strongly suggest that you go for a modern DMM even if it stretches your budget. Then you not only get native USB/LAN support, but you also get advanced display and logging features. The Siglent is a possibility, as are the Keysight 34465A or Keithley DMM6500 (if you can swing the +3 dB increase in price).

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:23:21 am
content: you could go with 34410a and 34411a are 34401a sucessor, but faster600euro for a 34401a is pure non sense go with otherk2000 okay but if the famous tf245 resistor smd fail ....but as more modern you get schematics become unavailablek2000 (some models) 34401a 34410 34411a are knownothers ..... zit nada niet not leaked

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 09:06:09 am
content: A 4.5 digit DMM is good enough for component matching. With a 6.5 digit DMM, you'll see the values change along with temperature and humidity. For component matching calibration doesn't matter either as the measurements are relative anyway.I'd recommend against getting an old clunker bench DMM. Better buy something modern with nice features like a big display, capacitance measurement, higher current capability, trend chart plotting, statistics, etc.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 09:13:06 am
content: Quote from: 4thDoctorWhoFan on July 27, 2024, 08:52:38 pmSo why go with a bottom-of-the-range oscilloscope? That seems more important.

author: rizek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 10:36:35 am
content: Thank you all for your comments. They are highly appreciated.@FungusI actually could not find any alternative with better resulution and higher samle rates. Rigol MSO5074 was another option with the built in wave generators but the price is almost doubled. But I would like to hear your alternative recommendations

author: 44kgk1lkf6u
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:50:57 pm
content: For audio, the audio ports on a computer are even better than regular oscilloscopes and signal generators in some aspects. A sound card has more bits than an oscilloscope. An oscilloscope measures higher voltage and higher frequency. I once needed to measure the noise and distortion characteristics of an audio circuit. I first tired an oscilloscope. It had too much noise. The audio input on my computer was good enough on the other hand. A signal generator can usually go to higher voltages. But it has a 50 Ω output impedance. That means it can deliver less power than a headphone jack. Just make sure that your headphone jack is not driven by a class-D amplifier. The computer's audio ports are easier to control with a computer. And it is also easier to get isolated channels. Simply get a full-speed USB isolator and a USB sound card. If I were you, I would hold off on buying a signal generator until I need to generate something my sound card can not.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2024, 09:13:06 amWhile the SDS800X HD series may be at Siglent’s bottom range, I’d suggest they are hardly a bottom range scope in the scheme of things. It’s amazing what $400 gets you these days. Considering that the OP is looking at dedicated AWG’s, the only thing that seems like might be improved for his needs would be audio range FFT. And even then a dedicated audio analyzer might be the better option?This kind of goes back to my question about getting more expensive gear than what you need. Granted, having capabilities beyond immediate needs does provide more options for other future or unforeseen circumstances, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: rizek on July 28, 2024, 10:36:35 amIf you've got money then this:https://www.siglent.eu/product/1182111/siglent-sds2104x-plus-4ch-100mhz-2gsa-s-oscilloscopeIt has built-in signal generator so you save on that.Edit: Also note that you might have to wait months to get an SDS804X HD. They're not easy to get.

author: rizek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:50:10 pm
content: Actually I was considering the new SDS1000X HD series but unfortunatelly its over my budget :Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2024, 02:36:59 pm

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:06:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2024, 02:36:59 pmIsn’t the SDS2104X AWG single channel? While the SDG1032 is 2 channel, which might come in handy for stereo audio work.Edit - I guess you could always split the AWG signal to feed more than one channel with the same signal…Edit 2 - I recently got an SDS804X HD from Saelig…. You might check with them about stock, and you can also get an EEVblog discount code.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:14:23 pm
content: If audio analyzing is your main focus, you should look at the QuantAsylum QA403. Maybe wait on the Scope and AWG if that's what you wanted them for.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 28, 2024, 03:14:23 pmTest gear like this is definitely the better approach for analyzing audio. But a scope is obviously more versatile and useful for designing or building audio circuits. In a world without budget constraints you’d have both.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:55:04 pm
content: Quote from: TomKatt on July 28, 2024, 03:25:29 pm100%.The only question is what he needs now, and can budget for later. Or maybe get a less expensive DMM and buy it all. The SDM3045X is a great DMM option too. Depending on the hardware version, it can possibly be upgraded to 5.5 digits like mine.

author: rizek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:47:59 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 28, 2024, 03:14:23 pmAfter seeing the video on The Signal Path channel I said to myself 'I need this'But I have to wait a litle more to get it. Not much European stocks available and also need to save more money ...

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 05:34:45 am
content: €450 should almost buy a Keithley 2015THD, nvm a 2000...

author: points2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2024, 03:13:38 am
content: hi rizek,Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pmFrom scratch you need all these ? You've never own any such devices ?FIY, I do some mods on my hifi gear too. But only on the digital chain. Reinventing the wheel by building your own amplifier is a complet waste of time & money given that you have state-of-art "pro" active speakers at nice price that outperfom like hell any passive "hifi" setup. On the digital chain there is room for improvements ; but creating you own DAC or digital interface is a waste of time & money => doing some mods on the PCB of a DAC is far more efficient. Reinventing the wheel to end up to a square wheel is...Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pmYou'll work on high currents (amplifier), or digital chain (3.3V max on PCBs, tiny current) ?Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pma scope is usefull => +1BUT why this model with low BW ?To me, it's better to put money on the scope (than DMM...) : have in mind that, like said above, you can get a SDS2104X+ at "nice" price, and thanks to nice guys from this forum, you'll be able to "upgrade" it to full option + 500MHz BW !Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pmuseless given that most of scopes have a wav gen included that can help => 350Eur saved !Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pmTo me, this is useless... unless you really need it. You need it ?I say that because for instance in digital interfaces, we have some 1VDC / 1.2V /3.3VDC max (to simplify). Given that, you can use a 5V/2A SMPS (USB charger) to feed a basic circuit with a 3.3V LDO eg => and you have a tiny/efficient 3.3VDC power supply : 1 output only, but cost = few Euro only !=> 700Eur saved !Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pmAs someone mentionned it above : why so much money for that ?A fairly nice & not expensive multimeter (basic DIYer multimeter, <100Eur) will give the info you need ! You need to know the voltage, if somewhere on the pcb we have 1V or 3.3V => to do that, any basic multimeter will do the job (and more of course...).The relevant info is not the dead accurate value, it's more : the DC waveform (given by a scope), the ripple etc...500Eur saved !Quote from: rizek on July 27, 2024, 06:30:33 pmHere my list of usefull devices !- a JBC soldering station : expensive ? not at all because : it will last many years / you'll be able to solder any stuff down to sub-millimeter sizes !- a stereomicroscope => Amscope of course ! I have this one =>https://eleshop.eu/szm7045xt-stl2.html(to add : LED-ring & barlow x0.5 ; useless => a camera)With this scope, the whole world of tiny compoments is wide open to you, dead easy soldering of SMD passives down to 0201. With some tricks, you can even solder this kind of bad boy =>https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/TPS6208833YFPR?qs=fAHHVMwC%252BbgZiei1VAGw0w%3D%3D(I admit I can't do it if I've drunk too much coffee). Ice on the cake : with a microscope, you use only SMD parts, no more through-hole => big saving on parts !Plus these "basics" of any DIYer- a LiteVNA (160Eur)- a TinySA Ultra (125Eur)- a TinyPFA (75Eur)- Shannon Tweezers (140Eur)My 2 cents...rizek, feel free to correct me of coursewe're just talking about a funny hobby

author: points2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2024, 12:14:13 am
content: Oups !no feedback vs my post !?my goal was not to kill this interesting thread of course !Anyone feels free to help rizek, & kick me if I said something wrong

author: rizek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 09:46:40 am
content: Sorry for the late reply @points2. Since I could not afford anything during summer, I postponed my list until now cause it is Christmas bonus timeDuring this week I made a lot of researching and Rigol products has a lot of discounts. So now I am indecisive more then ever :/My alternatives ;Siglent SDS804X HD 480€ or Siglent SDS1104X HD 1300€ or Rigol DHO804 330€ or Rigol DHO1074 830€Siglent SDG1032X Plus 440€ or Rigol DG902 Pro 530€Rigol DM3068 581€ or Siglent SDM3065X 800€ or maybe I should wait for the new Siglent SDM4000A for EU launch??Siglent SPD4323X 850€ or Rigol DP900U 440€ or Rigol DP832A 570€To be honest I have no experience with Siglent or Rigol. My main concern is I do not want to upgrade anything for at least 5 years. So your comments are more than welcomed