Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 06:50:11 pm
content: I have been considering the purchase of a Rigol MSO5000 series scope but it is rather a lot of money to justify for a hobbyist. I could set aside a budget of around £800 and the DSO5074 at the moment is £850 including VAT which I could stretch to, this having been apparently reduced by almost £100. I would have to buy the probe later, or perhaps make one by following one of the two projects on EEVBLOG.Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.I already own a Rigol 1054Z which has been adequate for messing around with micro-controllers and vintage computer repairs and catching transients. However, I also like to work with vintage radio (valve and transistor) as well as other analog repairs. Sometimes an analog scope can be more useful than a digital one so I would like to keep at least one analog scope around for such occasions. As for analog scopes, I own a Tek 468 10MHz storage/100MHz 2CH hybrid digital/analog scope with GPIB (useful for dumping screenshots), a Philips PM3094 200MHz 4CH analog which was my last upgrade some three or four years ago, and more recently I have acquired a Tek 475 200MHz 2CH scope. The Phillips PM3094 is a nice instrument, but seems to struggle at FM radio frequencies. I haven't had the opportunity to compare the Tek 475 in this scenario yet but I would like be able to view frequencies up to the 2M ham band. A scope with bandwidth anywhere beyond that is just going to be way out of my budget.Obviously I will not need all of these oscilloscopes, so I have decided that if I go ahead an purchase the MSO5074, then at least two of the analog scopes or maybe even the 1054Z will have to be sold. Because of the amount of work I put into it, I am the least inclined to sell the 468. I am probably most inclined to sell the PM3094. I do not actually need to sell anything, but I should probably also point out that storage and work space is a significant problem so getting rid of a couple of these large instruments would certainly be advantageous and would help to offset the cost somewhat. I am struggling to decide which ones to sell.I did also consider selling my HP function generator as it is also pretty big and has an awkward deep footprint, but it seems that the sig gen built into the MSO5000 can only manage 2.5Vpp? Is this even adequate to drive a 5V TTL circuit? I do also have a separate RF sig gen for radio servicing purposes as well as an FY6900 function generator so could probably manage without the HP. Still, it is a nice unit.As mentioned, £800 is a lot of money so naturally the question arises whether spending that much is justifiable for mostly hobbyist activities, i.e. I am forced to ask myself the question "do I really need this?". I suspect that the answewr is that it is probably more of a want than a need, although having seen both the MSO5000 and the 1054Z (as well as the Siglent) side by side at the recent Hamfest, I did feel that the larger screen would be beneficial. The Fourrier transforms and pseudo spectrum analyser function and the 16-channel LA also seemed rather useful.Incidentally, I also saw there an example of the HDO series although this does not appear to be available for sale yet. In any case, it is in a much higher price bracket.What I would like to know is:a) is there anything else in the price range that will give me the same value for money as the Rigol MSO5000 series?b) which of the scopes should I get rid of and which one to keep?c) should I simply stick to and be content with what I have?Decisions. Decisions.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 07:01:01 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 06:50:11 pmSDS2104X Plus is a 500MHz design and the 100 MHz model has a -3dB BW of ~185 MHz.Currently the MSO probe, license and internal AWG license are in promo package for just $ 220

author: IAmBack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 07:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2022, 07:01:01 pmWhile SDS2104X+ is awesome (also in terms of its hackability), keeping Rigol 1054z should be considered, because Siglent hasn't filters (hi/lo/bandpass filters are available in Rigol) , that may be handy for some kind measurements. Of course, if any of Your other tools doesn't offer this feature.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 08:41:41 pm
content: For his purposes, he won´t need the filters I guess...Nevertheless the MSO5000 got the filters too.QuoteClearly no.The SDS2104X+ is in several ways "better" but cost more, for the price of the MSO5000 you won´t get a "better" scope.If you are confident with your 1054Z, you should compare both side by side and decide if you really need a new DSO.The pros of the 5000 against the 1054Z are given:- Bigger (touch-)screen, higher resolution- Unlikely more memory- Inbuild 2-ch awg- Bode plot- Power analyzer- Hdmi outputAnd so on, there are more pros but IMHO not interesting when working on analog audio stuff."Old" man as I am, I would never return to a screen smaller than 9"...If you won´t/couldn´t spend more money, the 5000 would be a good choice if not the best.But have also a look at the HDO1000...It will have significant lower noise than the 5000, 12 bit resolution and 10" screen(but no logic analyzer, bode plot).If you don´t need LA, inbuild awg, high samplerate, but needing low noise and higher vertical accuracy, this could be worth waiting for.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 09:06:53 pm
content: With that budget I'd look at the oscilloscopes from MicSig. Big screen, small casing, rock solid firmware and easy to use.Internal function generator is typically not extremely useful especially if you need high amplitudes. There are several cheap function generator options nowadays from Feeltech and Uni-t that offer very good value for money.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 09:34:13 pm
content: QuoteYOU own one ?Now I´m really surprised.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 09:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2022, 07:01:01 pmSo what is your point? Although I had seriously considered the Siglent and its a nice scope, the price is circa 50% above the Rigol and well beyond my budget and therefore not under consideration. I thought that I had made this clear in my opening post. Having to pay an extra $220 for licences is also unlikely to persuade me to change my mind. Let’s not turn this into another Siglent vs Rigol thread.Filters are worth consideration IMHO and have been useful ocassionally.The prices I saw for the Rigol HDO on the Telonic stand at the Ham-fest started at a price point comparable to the Siglent SDS 210x series, although the range does not appear to be for sale in the UK yet. As usual the USA prices are much lower and might even be compelling had they been the same in the UK.Nctnico, I will check out the Micsig. I did also see them on the stand at the Ham-fest but didn’t take much notice. I don’t think any of them were capable of more than 1gs/s or had 4 channels. Not sure whether they had LA capability, at least for serial, SPI, I2C etc. More research required on my part. As regards the function gen, its the Feeltech FY6900 (60MHz) model that I have. Its pretty capable for the price. I guess that I don’t need to worry too much about such a feature being built into the scope.BTW, anyone know what the bit width is on the Rigol MSO5000 series? Clearly its less than the 12 bits of the HDO series, so does the MSO5000 have an 8-bit or perhaps 10-bit ADC?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 10:09:01 pm
content: Hi,"True" 8 bits.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 10:36:48 pm
content: A thread that may be of interest:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mso5000-bode-plotting-capability-is-it-good-enough/Many people stated their opinions about the MSO5K there, and are unlikely to repeat them here once more. Possible alternatives are also examined.TL;DR is that that scope has a noisy fron end, not particularly good for analog work, but has proper MSO integration, and it seems there is "nothing better" under 1K for people who need a MSO.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 03:26:44 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 09:50:35 pmMy post was to point out the great promo with these scopes currently however you've made it clear you can't/won't stretch that far.Anyways, have a look at what you get for 200 Euro:https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 08:59:07 am
content: The MicSig TO1000 series has up to 4 channels, filtering and protocol decoding. On top of that it is portable as well due to the battery. Because it has a 4:3 screen it has about 25% more screen area.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 09:16:30 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 06:50:11 pmThere is someone on ebay selling MSO5000 logic analyzer probes based on one of those two projects' design for $80 US. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/224648789536)Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 06:50:11 pmIf you have the MSO5074, is there a compelling reason to hang on to the 1054z?Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 06:50:11 pmYes the amplitude range on the MSO5000's sig gen is limited. But it does 5Vpp into HighZ, which is cut in half to 2.5Vpp into 50 Ohm. I believe the FY6900 function generator you have is more capable than the MSO5000's sig gen, but I've never used an FY6900.Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 06:50:11 pmAs always, such a question can only really be answered by you. That said - I had a 1054z and didn't really need to 'upgrade' to an MSO5074. But I did anyway, intending to sell the 1054z to offset some of the cost. I might actually get around to doing that one day...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:25:07 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 09:50:35 pmThe point is he's a Siglent salesman.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:35:04 am
content: How much can you get the Rigol MSO5072 for? It's easy to unlock the other two channels and make a MSO5074.The main benefit of paying for the MSO5074 is that you get four probes but in your case you probably have loads of them lying around.Lately the MSO5074 is about the same price as the MSO5072, probably due to the launch of the HDO series, so...Just a thought.Every 'scope has strengths and weaknesses. I love my Micsig but it I'm aware doesn't have the largest feature set.The real question is:What new abilities do you think the MSO5000 will give you?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:40:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2022, 08:59:07 amAnd it also does not have trend plots and even basic statistics on measurements that even DS1000Z does have. In some ways it is a downgrade from DS1000Z if those things are important to OP.A general remark to original question: Honestly, most of the equipment is overkill for a hobbyist. You probably already have more than enough equipment for the stuff you use it for and not even using that to the full.How I dare to presume that ? Because of speculative question. It is simple: whenever I NEEDED a piece of equipment it was really, really obvious. For instance if you want to measure 3 phases voltages and currents at the same time you need at least 6 channels scope. Hence 8 channel scope. When I needed to look at fast signals, there it is, a 1GHz scope. I needed to solder, there is soldering station..Things youneedare usually quite obvious. Everything else is nice to have or luxury. In professional setting you might invest in things that speed up your work. Those are not needed in hobby environment but nice if you can afford it.By definition, people do hobby to entertain themselves, it is something they like to do, not because it is "good business decision". So If you think you will get something "more" out of it (in whatever way that is meaningful to you) then you buy some piece of equipment or a parts for a project, if you can afford it.If you want to be more on a rational side, I would say, spend more time and money on projects and find out what kinds of projects interest you the most. And then, it will soon be clear what tools (tools, instruments etc) you need to work on your topic of interest.Other rational thing is to get rid of unnecessary and unreliable stuff. Also stuff that is too large and bulky and power hungry maybe.. If you want to keep an analog scope, keep one that will be most reliable. These things are on it's last breaths nowadays anyways.Good luck in your pursuit...

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:32:20 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 17, 2022, 03:26:44 amFair enough. The 2 channel Siglent SDS2012X costs €1070 inc VAT from Batronix. Add the option bundle for €244 inc VAT, that takes the total cost to €1314 which is about 1140GBP. The price from Telonic is 945GBP inc VAT plus 220GBP plus VAT for the bundle which comes to a comparable 1165GBP. You are correct. I definitely cannot stretch beyond 850-900GBP at this time.Quote from: Martin72 on October 16, 2022, 10:09:01 pmThat's a shame. I thought it might be 10. Sounds like it could be worth waiting for the HDO series to become available in the UK, although that would depend on the eventual price point. Either way, that's likely to be more than my current budget so any purchase would have to be put on hold pending further information and funds.Quote from: balnazzar on October 16, 2022, 10:36:48 pmThanks. I just had a look at that thread (in addition to the 33 page one I had already digested over the last few weeks) and it does have some interesting points. It also mentions the Digilent AD2 and a GW Instek GDS1054B. I don't think that the AD2 is what I am looking for. The GDS1054B is interesting though.Quote from: mwb1100 on October 17, 2022, 09:16:30 amThat is a fair point and I suspect that I might end up doing the same!Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 10:40:31 amThank you. Useful to note. I do think the Micsig might have a couple of advantages: a) it is handheld so does not have a common ground which might be useful in some circumstances. b) might a decent scope with good stable firmware be better than a jack of all trades with known bugs? Still it has only 2 channels at 200 or 300MHz.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 10:40:31 amAlso a fair point. Generally I have purchased kit on an as needs basis but not always. For example, I haven't used all of the functions of the PM3094, however, I did purchase it because I knew I needed a bandwidth greater than 100MHz which none of my other scope have. Sometimes I might think that a purchase might come in handy for X but then that does not mean that X will ever arise. It just seems like a useful to have just in case. Since I have in mind to sell the PM3094, there would be no point purchasing a GDS1054B 100MHz scope.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 10:40:31 amThat seems like sound advice. I am beginning to think that I should actually put the purchase on hold for now and clear any surplus items first.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 12:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 10:40:31 amMy advise: Either for business or hobby, buy the best you can afford. It will make your life better because the work is easier and the results are better. Unless you need a tool for a one-off project and have time to 'make do' with a sub-optimal tool.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 01:42:28 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 17, 2022, 11:32:20 amThe AD2 doesn't have the bandwidth you need for your work. But if you like USB scopes with good software (generally better than the software accompanying benchtops) there are the Picos.You could also consider the SDS1104X-E. It can do more things than the Instek, it's unbeatable in terms of bang-for-bucks, has two 1GSa/s ADCs, but also has two annoying defects:- It is loud (small fan driven at high rpms)- It can't zoom out (if you stop acquisition and then enlarge horizonally, it will show you nothing).Hope this helps.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 02:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 17, 2022, 01:42:28 pmAnd if you take long memory slow acquistion and stop, you can zoom in into detail... And it is much easier to set scope that way instead of mentally calculating how long will certain memory depth be at certain sample rate...People should stop repeating this nonsense statement. It is not a defect... It is a design decision. Scope captures amount of time that fits on screen and as set with timebase, same as analog scope would.Many other scopes work this way (including LeCroys and Picoscope) and most of the scopes by default work like this also in AUTO memory mode. They have to be put into manual memory mode for this to happen. Some scopes, like Keysight Megazoom, don't do it either, but make a trick that if you stop the scope it takes additional longer capture. So people wrongly think it captured things outside the screen. It didn't, it took separate full memory single capture after you pressed stop...Even on scopes that can manually control memory, most of the people don't use it and use Auto memory mode because setting memory back and forth all the time is time consuming and annoying and if you just set to longest memory all the time, than it slows down scope to a halt...It can be useful in some specific scenarios but same captured data can be achieved by simply setting a scope timebase to long setting, capture and then change timebase to faster..

author: luma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 05:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 09:50:35 pmTautech's schtick is to reply to every thread with a suggestion to buy a Siglent. How well that suggestion matches the actual thing being asked is immaterial, just "reply" and "YOU SHOULD BUY A SIGLENT", no additional thought applied. He gets paid to do this, for some reason we all put up with it, so just ignore everything he says as it won't ever be pertinent to your question.I have an MSO5072 sitting here that I bought shortly after launch. Works a treat, does all the things I need it to do. UI is OK, speed is great, and the bang-for-the-buck is off the chart. I don't know if my use case is the same as yours, but for me it's been a great solution on my bench for the past few years.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 07:57:02 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 02:26:30 pmWhich does affect useability in several very useful workflows. Maybe it is better that you stop pushing your workflow on others. Likely you are working on different problems / projects. IOW: try to understand that what is not a problem for you, can be a huge problem for others. Not everyone lives on your island!Fortunately Siglent has finally seen the light and is now implementing memory management that is common for digital oscilloscopes on their newer models. There is no longer a need to pretend that a shortcoming/limitation is some kind of 'design choice'.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 08:08:34 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 02:26:30 pmGood points but.. I still prefer a scope that zooms out. In absence of this, I'd like at least to have some workaround a-la-Keysight.Anyway, a detailed review about this aspect among various brands has been done:

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 08:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: luma on October 17, 2022, 05:49:15 pmBut isn't the noisy front end a bit annoying?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 08:18:45 pm
content: Not when you don´t need to observe very low voltage signals.It´s always a question of what you need.For me it was a real showstopper and so I gave it away.For him not and he´s happy with it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 08:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 17, 2022, 08:08:34 pmTrouble is Dave's video is outdated as it implies all Siglent scopes are incapable of capture zoom out which in Zoom mode is certainly not the case.Fast forward to 2022 and his claims are just wrong as 2 new model series and the existing SDS5000X series now all have a new memory management mode when combined with deep memory makes for DSO's with market leading zoom out capability.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 09:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 17, 2022, 08:08:34 pmMy point is that you don't understand how it works then. That video is absolutely opposite of detailed review and proven wrong on many points stated in video. But people still watch it but don't read the discussion explaining all the things wrong with it..There is no free lunch. There is no data being captured outside set time. It is only that you can set time by obscure mental calculation (flying blind and calculating sample rate/ manual memory length ratio) or by simply setting proper time base in a first place...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 17, 2022, 08:23:08 pmSo they admit that was the wrong way to do it...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:49:55 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 17, 2022, 08:18:45 pmAnd even when you do, itcanbe made to work (hires mode, heatmap mode, etc).If you're looking at low level signals all day long then it would make life difficult but many (most?) people simply aren't in that category.(and if you are, the new Rigol HD will probably kick Siglent ass)

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:05:02 pm
content: Mh, the SDS5000s at the university cannot zoom out, much to the scorn of my professor, who curses all the time for that. Outdated firmware?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 17, 2022, 10:43:03 pmThat is a false conclusion.. A non sequitur.. But you know that, oh so well.. Your motive is to provoke people while you enjoy the commotion.No, they added it to scopes where it was easily possible so we don't have to listen to these incessant trolling from people who don't even own a darn Siglent scope...How about that unsubstantiated statement, that is pure figment of my imagination...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:17:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 17, 2022, 10:49:55 pmNo you can't, and you should stop proving your ignorance..And from what can be seen so far, new HDO Rigol 4000 is finally with a potential to have decent signal path. 1000 not so much it seems. Better than older Rigols, but nothing special. At the moment it seems there is production delays for 1000 series anyways.But both are limited in functions, and even HDO4000 is not better noise wise than SDS2000X HD, at best comparable at some parameters.It still remains to be seen how well Rigol will actually develop the platform..

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 09:07:43 pm- Detailed in the sense that the reviews looks at many brands. Not in the technical sense.- The scope could and should capture much more data with respect to the screen's window. It has the memory and should have the computational/sampling power to do that without slowing down. Otherwise, even the workaround by Keysight is better than nothing. And according to tautech even Siglent is changing its "design choices" about that.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:21:03 pm
content: I don't damn know why any discussion on this forum has to get inflamed...

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:24:22 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 11:07:20 pmMh, now you are making dubious assumptions.It's much more reasonable to think that they added it because they actually want to *improve* their products, and also they got feedback, and recognized that people consider that feature a nice thing to have.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:32:14 pm
content: Rigol HDO1000. I wouldn't consider it. It's just a bare scope without all the stuff that comes with a MSO5K.Basically you pay 1399 just for the high res front end (999 for the 70 MHz is more reasonable).I know the mantra, "it depends upon what you have to do with it". I'm saying from the point of view of a hobbyst or student who wants a general purpose instrument to grow into.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 17, 2022, 11:18:51 pmWorkaround from Keysight is dangerous trick. If you set Normal trigger mode, wait for a sparse trigger, you get several, you see on the screen something interesting and press stop two things might happen: if there is a trigger within few hundreds milliseconds it will destroy capture from the screen, and get another long capture. Different from the one because of which you stopped the scope. Second option is that if you don't get a new triggerable event in that period, then it will stop and show you your screen. It will not have anything but on the screen in memory. So see, that Keysight trick doesn't work at all, and it's only purpose is to pretend it does... Because of that, and when some of us started to write about it openly, Keysight added manual memory mode to the scopes, so for few years now they have manual memory control. But their trick in normal auto mode does not work and never did.Siglent didn't change design choices, they added additional fixed sample rate/memory acquisition model to some scopes (where it was possible) to simply have that function too. And that, mostly, because being able to fix sample rate is useful for many purposes. Fixed memory mode was sort of free ride with that.. If that was to benefit of some users even better.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 17, 2022, 11:24:22 pmI was sarcastic and made a clear statement of that. See my other post..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 17, 2022, 11:32:14 pmI agree with you. HDO 1000 is basically a DS1000Z with 12bit ADC and big touch screen. MSO5000 is better "all round" scope despite not having best front end, for half a price...

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 12:10:54 am
content: Well, not exactly half the price. The same price for the 70 MHz version, but they give you a bonanza of things with the MSO5K.About the sarcasm, I seeBut I think Fungus was being sarcastic as well...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 12:23:16 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 17, 2022, 11:18:51 pmThe "zoom out" trick is by definition slowing down a scope, all that data around the screen is captured and not seen on the window but is blocking another trigger from happening.Yes, there is use for that, but its an extreme corner case and not the normal/typical use. It requires the user to know what trigger rate they want, accept not seeing any of the "zoom out" data during operation, and for some odd reasonrefuse to use a zoom window.Want no slowing down? use a little memory as possible.Want more information on the screen? Up the trigger rate for overlaid waveforms, or have the full capture length on the screen.Want to see some fine detail in a capture? use the damn zoom window!

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 12:26:11 am
content: Mh, let me reflect upon that... I'll do a few experiments.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 07:56:41 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 09:07:43 pmYou keep on repeating this but it isn't true. In fact for many of the measurements I do, I don't even care about time/div setting. And in some cases (like verifying protocol bitrates which can be off by a factor 100) I don't even know which time/div setting I'd need to use to get the signal on screen. The deep memory simply makes sure there is always enough data. I make a measurement and twist the time/div knob until there is a visible signal. Then I use a measurement and / or cursors to tell me what I want to know. There is zero mental calculation and zero preparation. But we have been around this before. It is like the eternal discussion about automatic / stick shift in cars. The thing is a good DSO offers both so everyone can be happy.Again: suggesting to use the zoom window is just stupid. Especially on the lower end scopes, the zoom window takes away a significant portation of the already small screen. It doesn't help improve the useability especially if you have a bunch of traces and protocol decoding enabled.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 08:25:38 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2022, 07:56:41 amSeriously, you don't even care about timebase on a scope but you are going to tell me I'm wrong.. okkkkeyyy....that IS funny....What kind statement is that..And that kind of grab full memory of something and then sift through it works only for your use case like details of long sequences and decoding.How the f**k do you use the scope like that?You just grab some random signals and then look around? Just stabbing in a dark until you find something by chance? Do you even need trigger function?Do you even use scope as a normal scope?It is not about manual/auto debate. It is more like you insist all cars have to have winch because you like using it to pull wood from the forest. Which makes perfect sense for someone living in forest that does pull wood.. For the rest that is something that will just sit there unused for years...And also zoom debate is also getting old. Rest of the world disagrees with you. Zoom is great function, learn to use it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 08:29:56 am
content: You are not wrong with how you use a scope. I am not wrong with how I use a scope. You are just stuck thinking that your way is the only way AND keep forcing your way onto other people by ridicule without even considering that the use cases may be completely different. Your post above just proves that. On top of that you keep ignoring people stating that they prefer to have the zoom-out feature as if they are idiots. How ignorant can you be? I'm done...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 09:02:16 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2022, 08:25:38 amThis MO is normal when complex use of the trigger suite is required. Hit STOP than do the measurements, zoom in or out on a captured waveform. Why be challenged by the proper use of a scope ?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 09:06:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2022, 08:29:56 amNo, I'm not forcing anything. I agree with you something works for you but you refuse to accept it is not common practice, and that most of the people don't care for your use case... That is all.THere is no zoom out feature.. It is old, outdated practice of using fixed manual control of memory on scope. That you have some use for. Rest of the people hate it and use Auto mode... While I do not mind if scope has manual memory management, I find it completely unnecessary feature in this day and age...That is what I think.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 10:06:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2022, 07:56:41 am"stupid" as your obscure use case only wants to look at the data outside the window after pressing stop.Pretty much everyone else, wants to see both the data at the same time.Screen/UI too small? that's a characteristic to consider far more important to most people/use cases than "zoom out".But do continue trying to justify your personal corner case as some parameter that must be considered as by every one else as some new essential function. We'll just have to keep pointing out how dumb your "argument" is, the OP didn't understand any of the nuance or reasoning, and you still won't back it up or explain it, just keep pushing your nonsense condensed "argument".... more

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 10:19:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 18, 2022, 09:02:16 amNormal (from my experience of having seen many many many different people use scopes) is that users do not expect to collect any data outside the visible window. Trigger on what you want and then inspect as needed.Its this ridiculous leap to a small number of people now saying capturing outside the window is a must have feature, so they can see a slowly triggering characteristic, then stop (before another trigger), and see some other correlated data.A zoom window is pretty much the obvious solution to that, see both, and have fast/direct control of memory size and position.There is NO scope (that I'm aware of) that lets you set the trigger position within the overall captureandthe screen location independently, trigger position is relative to screen (and all that outside the screen is invisible). Which is why the zoom window is so important to explain/discuss, it adds those controls so the user can set every parameter (reducing the size of the view, but now including a view of the entire capture).But I'm sure nctnico will continue shouting over any reasonable discussion of thepros and cons of different methods:Zoom out; pros: bigger picture of part of the signal, cons: limited control of positioningZoom window; pros: see everything and control all positions, cons: smaller waveform sizeThe user can choose what is most appropriate to them, from my perspective it is very hard to imagine common or routine use cases for zoom out, the benefits just aren't there.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 10:29:53 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 11:39:44 pmAs if that's nothing...We haven't seen the firmware capabilities yet but just as some people won't be affected by the noise on the MSO5000, other people will probably kill for the low noise and detail of an HD1000.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 11:09:07 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 11:39:44 pmThank you both for that bit of information. So the HDO1000 has a lower noise floor because of using more bits in its ADC but is a more basic instrument, whereas the MSO5000 has a higher noise floor but is something of an all-rounder more suited to a hobbyist. That is actually helpful to know.I did sort of assume that the HDO1000 would have the same features as the MSO5000 although Dave's video makes it clear there is no sig gen and there are no MSO features. He also says the MSO1000 is "software crippled" and is limited to 1mv, whereas the higher end of the range goes all the way down to 100uV. Finally he also found some bugs.My use is likely to be more general purpose, although I accept that when performing specific and sensitive metrics, then that lower noise floor might make a huge difference. I am not sure of how much benefit a HDO1000 would actually be to me. I don't need a built-in sig gen, but I would view the MSO features as useful.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 11:10:55 am
content: I am somewhat shocked by the rage around the zoom issue. I'll admit I like the ability to zoom out on a stopped acquisition. Sometimes I don't quite know what to expect, start with some setting and then it turns out I need to see more. Maybe thatisjust because I am stupid and don't know what I am doing (always a realistic possibility). But to me it's just convenient that I don't have to start over.If you mostly work with signals that are periodic and easily replicated you may not care anyway. If you are used to Lecroy scopes you are probably used to a different workflow. There is nothing wrong with that. But there are many features on a scope I don't use either and that doesn't mean they shouldn't be there.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 11:36:05 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 17, 2022, 11:32:53 pmHa-ha! So you are telling us that you:(1) watch the screen of an oscilloscope capable of displaying >100,000 waveforms/second (and plotting the result on screen at a rate of at least 30Hz);(2) notice a single rare event;(3) press the STOP button to freeze the said rare event and inspect what’s outside of the curve plotted on screen;(4) get a wave on the screen you can, indeed, zoom out BUT doesn’t show the rare event anymore?(5) … and then you blame Keysight’s “dangerous” work-around that assumes that your reaction time is slower than the speed of light, so any non-naïve user would not do what you describe in the first place?Bad example, doesn’t support your point…

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 11:36:16 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2022, 10:29:53 amWe have seen quite a lot of current firmware capability. There is a full user manual available.It is scope for mostly analog work (and some decoding from analog ch, which might be enough for many people ), but from what we have seen (there are measurements available) HD1000 is worse than HDO4000 noise wise, and on par with some 8 bit scopes Micsig, SDS2000X+ and 10bit RTB2000. Which is a great result for Rigol but nothing groundbreaking. I think it is great technological advance for Rigol, but don't forget that all Rigol "bestsellers" so far where compeeting on price and nominally large featureset (even if implemented in barely usable way) not quality or superior performance. Their best products were DS1000Z (cheapest "real" scope) and MSO8000 (cheapest 2GHz scope).I recommended both on many occasions. MSO5000 at current price is also good value for money despite compromises (higher noise than any competition) for people not doing low level fine analog...HDO1000 and HDO4000 would have been interesting products if they were MSO5000HD and MSO7000HD, i.e. a 12 bit low noise upgrade to current MSO line with new, hopefully better GUI (which it does seem they did much better this time, albeit it looks very new and will have to "mature" a bit..).At the moment, HDO4404 cost some 15% less then SDS2354X HD. SDS2354X HD is a proper MSO and a proper 12 bit scope.In my mind that is 15% less money for 50% less of the scope...And in my measurements on SDS2354X HD, when I apply all the same filters as HDO4000 does on 500uV/div I still get few percent less noise than HDO4000... So go figure, you cannot outsmart physics with firmware...It remains to be seen how many people will choose one over other... But in my mind they do not directly compete... They are not exactly 1:1 products..As for HDO1000 we have yet to see it in sales channel... But HDO1x04 is listed on Rigol shop with MSRP of 1200€ to 2000€.If you compare unhacked versions it is comparable with SDS2000X+ in price per MHz. Hacked, same, except SDS2000X+ goes to higher frequency, has built in AWG, and is MSO.Cheapest HDO1000 is already too expensive for hobby users to casually buy it...So again up to users to decide what feature set is important to them.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 11:55:55 am
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on October 18, 2022, 11:36:05 amYou understood it completely wrong. Did you read it at all or was I so bad at explaining?THIS is exactly what Nico does and people call zoom out.. not me.I was writing it out to illustrate how ridiculous it is..It absolutely IS my point.scenario that is proposed (not by me):1. You are not plotting at 30 Hz because scope is set to max memory and you cannot get more than 5 triggers per second.2. events are spaced every few seconds.. there is enough time to look at the screen and notice something interesting.3. you quickly press stop. Now you have full buffer of 200ms of stuff around that trigger to investigate at will.This is Nico's scenario and it makes sense to me. But this is not Keysight but a scope that has full manual memory mode and 100 times (literally) more memory.I was explaining how Keysight DOES not capture outside screen but only pretends it does.When scope is in Normal trigger mode screen is frozen between trigger events and shows capture from last trigger event.Let's say there is burst every 1 seconds, but there is randomness in period so sometimes it shoot two bursts close...So you're looking at the screen and you see some anomaly.You press stop. here there are two possible outcomes:1. there is no another burst within some short timeout period. In which case there IS NOTHING outside the screen.2. there is another burst from DUT that invokes additional trigger event (in short timeafteryou pressed STOP), which gets captured in full memory and you can see that on the screen. Screen that was on when you wanted to investigate is gone and you are looking at something else...Is this better explanation.. ?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 12:08:31 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2022, 11:36:16 amI have to agree about that.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 12:27:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 17, 2022, 10:49:55 pmUnlike others, I'm mostly talking about the oscilloscopes I know/have owned.And this was my verdict about the 5000 - Don´t believe I didnt try anything before giving it up..And also I said, it depends from the needs you have - Some need it some not, that´s all and make the scope not worser/better in general.And finally, stop this childish "kick ass" thing..There´s no fight, no who got the longest contest..

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 04:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2022, 11:55:55 amI did read it, but I can only read what you write, not your mind (working on that ☺). You just didn't elaborate.So you are saying that the workflow a different user (Nico) has developed on a different scope (non-Keysight), with 100x more memory would not work if Keysight’s approach were implemented on the said scope (which isn't). Is this what you are trying to say? What is the point of stating that?Keysight’s approach seems a neat trick to speed-up the acquisition in normal mode while providing you with extra information in STOP or single-shot mode. Yes, it would not allow users like Nico to use it with their workflow, but it does not matter at all, because they should not attempt to use this particular scope in this particular way. The acquisition rate would be very likely too fast for them to react, anyways, so that scenario is not a real-life one. Horses four courses. Nothing “dangerous” here. That’s my point.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 04:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 18, 2022, 11:10:55 amExactly the point. If you've got it stopped and are looking at something you need to be able to zoom out.Zooming out then recapturing isn't a comfortable/natural way to work and it isn't always possible to do it.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 06:11:37 pm
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on October 18, 2022, 04:31:42 pmI have to work on my explanations and you have to work on understanding...This is second time you extrapolated something that wasn't even suggested.Point is that Keysight is not "capturing outside the screen" like people say it does. It only pretends to do so..So yes, Nico's workflow doesn't work with Keysight but people keep saying it should "because it captures outside the screen". It does not.So users don't know that about Keysight and therefore don't know they should not use Keysight in this manner.If you don't know the difference, then you are the first one who needs this warning about Keysight.You are presuming wrong usage here. This type of use would use a selective trigger that would fire off only occasionally, be it anomaly, or specific level or message. It would be used for non repetitive events. Why you presume 100000 triggers per second and then stop mode? Why did you even think of that? What would be use of that ?? Who in their right mind would think they can stop scope in 100 ns?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 06:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2022, 04:50:56 pmThat is why you start with capturing more in a first place.. instead of relying on magical mind reading memory "that should" capture more...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 08:48:05 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 18, 2022, 11:10:55 amIf nctnico would stop posting inflammatory and misleading comments that make out like this is a issue that affects everyone/everything the "drama" would dissapear almost immediately. Notice how the OP was asking about one specific thing: capturing as much data as possible, but nctnico only want to talk about their "human trigger" use case. So we have:Quote from: Someone on October 18, 2022, 12:23:16 amExplained in context and actually including the explanation, which nctnico then jumps on and makes the ridiculous and unframed/unsubstantiated claim thatQuote from: nctnico on October 18, 2022, 07:56:41 amWithout any clarification or disclaimer that it is "stupid" in their (unstated) very very narrow (almost imaginary) use case, while the rest of us know using zoom is generally not stupid. Its that difference between honest and well communicated situational things, vs nctnico's nonsense generalisation that they insist on pushing (knowingly, intentionally) creating fake drama.... and derailing endless threads.Running extra capture around the visible window slows down a scopes possible trigger rate, this isn't theoretical but has been measured and is well known. That is a true generalisation, and the information that the OP was missing.If the trigger is known/accepted to be slowandthe user cannot use triggers to capture the desired signal so will be pressing stop manuallyandthe detail to trigger on is substantially away from other important detail that must be capturedandthe detail for the human trigger is no longer visible when using a zoom windowthen you might be worried about nctnico's warning, as you see its some obscure corner case, and not a general issue that "zoom window is just stupid". There are many many possible other solutions to that problem that people will have different constraints/values so its not a obvious or necessary solution. Despite asking and thinking about it I have not heard any other real use cases for capturing data outside the display, they all fall back onto people trying to force an imaginary situation.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 08:54:08 pm
content: Meanwhile there are lots of people stating that they like to zoom out. Personally I use it all the time because for some of the measurements I do regulary, I simply can't know what time/div setting to use. Needing to make only one measurement is more convenient. Again: just like several other have stated already. But they are likely corner cases as well.Heck, I even state the earth is a sphere. You'll now try to argue it is flat because you can't see it is a sphere.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 08:54:29 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2022, 06:13:06 pmSo what you're saying is we should never turn the horizontal knob to "max", just in case...?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 08:58:40 pm
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on October 18, 2022, 11:36:05 amThe misleading posts have confused you too! "Zooming Out" requires (is predicated on) that the triggers be slow enough a human is able to press stop and capture the important event. So now you're just adding more confusion and drama.There are scope modes which will do what you are talking about, history/replay mode:But that is not an industry standard mode so segmented/circular buffers might prioritise capturing rather than displaying to the screen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 09:11:36 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 18, 2022, 08:58:40 pmThe level of denial reaches record heights.What's the problem in having a bit of extra memory on either side of the screen? Why wouldn't you want that? Can somebody explain to me why it's a bad thing?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 09:34:34 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2022, 09:11:36 pmGood question. Nothing is wrong. We all do it by using timebase to capture a bit wider than event. That is all.Wrong is to say it is necesary. It is not if you use scope properly. Simple as that.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 09:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2022, 09:11:36 pmAs I have explained over and over, having more memory captured around the screen reduces the capture rate. So for situations with fast triggers you might not ever see some events. That's a significant downside that keeps being hidden by blanket statements like yours, anyone with a reasonable grasp of how a scope works would realise this but you bring up "zero downsides" as a complete straw man.Neither approach is is wrong or incorrect under all situations.What I point to is that a) 90% of the discussion on this matter is confusion (unintentional confusion? we need more discussion, intentional confusion? that's trolling) and b) having worked with many many people and listened to many many discussions on here most people want to have all the captured data on the screen (for all the benefits and downsides that has)Refusing to acknowledge thepros and cons of different methodsis why this topic turns into a dumpster fire each time. I explain them politely, and then people come in and try to argue some ridiculous extreme position.... thread derailed and more noise added.The OP raising the questions they did is evidence of how broken this discussion is, there appears to be no intent from some to help people learn and use their devices effectively, but instead some internet point winning nonsense.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 02:41:43 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 18, 2022, 09:46:13 pmNo it doesn't.As has been pointed out over and over: You only zoom out when the thing is stopped so "capture rate" doesn't enter into it. Memory is a big circular buffer which is constantly being filled. The data is in there regardless of how much of it is being shown on screen.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 03:06:44 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 18, 2022, 06:11:37 pmOf course it does "capture outside the screen". It does it in single shot mode, when it's relevant. The fact that it takes another single shot when you press STOP in Normal mode is irrelevant for the reasons we just discussed (and seem to agree...).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 03:30:03 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 19, 2022, 02:41:43 amYou are (same as nctnico) making this imaginary "argument" with the assumption that the trigger rate and what you want to see (and human trigger on) is slow enough that there is no blind time or missed triggers, and you will be inspecting the stopped capture that is sure to have exactly the information you want contained within it.SO JUST SAY THAT, instead of drawing out endless noise.Right from the outset I have clearly explained the framing/situation:Quote from: Someone on October 18, 2022, 08:48:05 pmWhen the trigger rate is unknown, or approaching/higher than the capture period (on or around the screen) you can end up with missed triggers that may well have been the information the user was interested in. That is the far more common use case of a scope.Your point blank statement that nothing is lost or missed when having the capture extend outside the scope screen in plainly wrong:[data data data data data data data | trigger on screen | data data data **missed trigger** data data]For all the people scrambling to reduce blind time and increase the amount of information arriving at the screen, you are proposing the opposite and trying (unsuccessfully) to argue that there is no downside.People might consider the ability to "zoom out" as a feature the want, that's fine. They should walk into that understanding the use cases and alternatives rather than being bullied by a noisy minority to accept that blindly as the way to do it. But to go around claiming that use "zoom out" use case has no downsides or limitations is going so far out into absurdity its saying an awful lot about either a) your motivations for being here, or b) your understand of how scopes are used/work. They might not be downsides in specific cases, but you need to say that rather than the short generalisation which is so plainly wrong.x1000

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 05:20:44 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 19, 2022, 03:30:03 amGive it a rest.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 06:38:59 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 19, 2022, 03:30:03 amIt's almost as if you believe the screen is refreshing at 120,000 frames/sec and that every one of those triggers is being displayed.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 07:39:12 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 19, 2022, 06:38:59 amI'll call that as I see it, troll post is troll. You know that is not what I said or meant but you keep throwing up more strawmen to fake like I dont know what I'm talking about.Scopes can render multiple acquisitions on top of each other onto the screen, and yes there are scopes that can display 120,000 triggers per second (or more) through to the screen. You know all this, but here is some learning material on the topic:"Application Note for Oscilloscope Waveform Update Rate Determines Probability of Capturing Elusive Events"https://xdevs.com/doc/HP_Agilent_Keysight/5989-7885EN%20English%20_%202014-08-02%20_%20PDF%202.87%20MB%20c20140903%20%5B12%5D.pdfAlso talks about blind time (keeping on topic here). That data outside the visible window in the above example is lost and never seen if more triggers arrive. A serious problem and a reason to not use an acquisition buffer larger than the screen. Which falsifies your unsubstantiated claim:Quote from: Fungus on October 19, 2022, 02:41:43 amSee how that quoted line actually presents the information in context. If you are talking about an entirely different situation with slow trigger rates, yes that's a thing, with many ways to capture and look at the data. You don't lose any data from the last trigger when you press stop, but all those triggers that happened before had data/event off screen that were never seen and couldn't be triggered on ,the reason why people wouldn't always run their scope with "zoom out". The capture rate of a scope is degraded when you increase the capture window, on all current scopes (it is theoretically possible to not do that but it hasn't been implemented) which is why zooming out is often a bad choice.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 08:02:16 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 19, 2022, 07:39:12 amOf course, butnoneof that is incompatible with being able to remember what was outside the screen and allowing the user to zoom out later.Proof: Other 'scopes manage to do it.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 08:34:23 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 19, 2022, 08:02:16 amYou keep moving target and state deliberate controversies..There are scopes that can capture outside the screen and do 1M wfms per second. True.But not AT THE SAME TIME. Proof: Keysight 3000T in Digitizer mode VS normal realtime mode..But that all is a moot point.I find R&S, LeCroy, Siglent, Picoscope type of history buffers (that actually remember 1000s of previous triggers) much more important and useful. That is the feature that I would take into account in purchasing decision. Why nobody speaks about that...?

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 08:45:34 am
content: Given the detailed and somewhat heated discussion, I now understand that there is a difference in the implementation of the Zoom/History feature between oscilloscopes and this may be a factor to consider when making a purchase. I do not require any further information on this subject. Thank you.Let me also take this opportunity to express appreciation for the meaningful and helpful contributions by some members in regards to other matters of concern.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 08:51:05 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2022, 08:34:23 amNobody really cares because everyone understands that you can't have both deep memory and update rates at the same time. So why keep going on about that? In my case I don't need high update rates when zooming-out is most useful because the rate at which the signal of interest occurs ranges from seconds to minutes. This has been explained at length already.And whether history buffers / segmented recording are useful depends on the type of work you are doing. For me using segmented recording has been a useful feature only once in the past decades. But I won't ever say that oscilloscope manufacturers should stop implementing it. Maybe I will need it again one day.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 08:57:44 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 19, 2022, 08:02:16 amProof? Ok, show us a scope triggering 120,000 waveforms per second and the amount of memory around the visible screen that can be captured. Absolute best theoretical possible capture window is 8.3us, less than 100k samples at 10GS/s. Increase the capture depth and that trigger rate drops off, missing/losing triggers.Simple as that. So your "proof" is still absolute nonsense. High trigger rates are incompatible with deep memory captures. Some scopes can do both, but never at the same time. Some times it might be useful to have the capture around the window, some times it won't be. They are competing performance specifications and one of them leads to missing trigger's/data.Quote from: nctnico on October 19, 2022, 08:51:05 amSeems Fungus missed that memo. ^^^

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 08:58:08 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2022, 08:34:23 amI believe that's "history mode" on a Siglent. It's something you can enable/disable and nothing to do with the topic at hand.https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/siglent-x-series-oscilloscopes-sequence-history-mode/In history mode it makes perfect sense to only save what's on screen, it maximizes the number of waveforms that can be stored.When I press the STOP button, or use a single shot trigger in normal mode? It makes no sense at all.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 09:01:40 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 19, 2022, 08:51:05 amExcept every time you bring up this topic youdontsay any of that and make out like this is some universal generalisation that applies to everything. Perhaps in future you can make that sort of reasonable statement at the start instead of being inflammatory?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 09:29:35 am
content: QuoteTopic was/is:QuoteEither it´s all offtopic or not.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 11:08:09 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 19, 2022, 07:03:16 amWhy did you even post this? You are adding zero value.I'm trying to gently nudge the thread back on topic.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 11:09:47 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 19, 2022, 09:01:40 amGuys, take this debate to the existing thread about that exact topic. Don't post about this here again, it's clearly getting out of hand.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 01:55:49 pm
content: Ok, is test device XXX overkill for hobby use?That depends on your income, how much use it's going to get, and what you're trying to build.It also depends on the device, eg. I could live with a $25 multimeter but I probably wouldn't want to live with a $200 oscilloscope.So the answer is: "It depends".

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 04:35:28 pm
content: Thanks Fungus. That the analog oscilloscopes I have cost around or less than that $200 figure you mention. Even though it has some useful measurement functions, I have unfortunately found the 200MHz PM3094 wanting on occasion and I feel it would be usefull to go to the next step. The thought mentioned earlier in the thread, regarding buying one instrument that will last for many years to come and job done, struck a cord and also harmonised with my goal of reducing both bench and storage space requirements.However, it seems going to that next step requires a considerable jump in finance. If money were no object (which sadkly is not the case) then it wouldn't matter. However I did recently see a view on another thread that a causual hobby purchase of 800-900GBP would generally be considered unjustifiable. In any case, if I were going to spend that much, then I would want to ensure that there are no silly gotchas and its the right purchase.I had also been looking at used equipment on eBay thinking that possibly the Tektronix 2465 or 2465A might be a suitable candidate or perhaps a LeCroy if I were fortunate enough to find one for the right price, but as has also been pointed out, these would come with the age/maintenance issue and I don't beleive that either have digital signal capabilities or a bode plot function and I do plan to do some work ewith filters. Neither would do anything for my bench space requirement, although selling the existing analog scopes would certainly reduce storage.It seems, all things considered, that the most practical solution is probably to "bite the bullet" and make this one-off purchase. I noted the comment that there is nothing else in this price bracket to compare with the MSO5000 series. Out of curiosity I compared with Tektronix and Keysight scopes but for thedse we are talking about an altogether different price point. I also looked at the Micsig, and although they are very tempting, they don't quite meets my needs. They have bus decoding, but the 300MHz version has only two channels. The GW-Insteks are considerably more expensive in Europe than they are in the states making a purchase here not worthwhile. Adding to that, they have a much lower memory depth, only 1Gs/sec and none of the advanced features.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 04:52:43 pm
content: Again: it doesn't make sense to set arbitrary limits on what is justifiable or not. Just spend what you think is reasonable. I have spend larger amounts on hobbies because I wanted to concentrate on the hobby and not make do. A hobby is supposed to give you pleasure so having some comfort is okCalculate what some people spend on smoking per year...BTW: make sure to do some tests on the MSO5000 when you get it. Especially if you can live with thick/ noisy traces. I used to own a DSO that had fat traces and that got rather annoying at some point. But this is a very personal preference.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 06:48:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 19, 2022, 11:08:09 amHardly, but below shows why you jumped in rather than some cryptic: Give it a rest.QuoteThank you, it would be beneficial to us all if you made your wishes clearer.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 07:41:12 pm
content: I don't rate the signal generator on the MSO5000, it sort of may do 5V if you can work out how, today it seemed intent on only outputting 1.25V, totally random. Just get a proper sig gen.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 08:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 19, 2022, 11:09:47 amI took the trouble to find it:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-zoom-out-quirk/Maybe you should also consider updating your videos on this matter based on what's available in 2022 and the finer points of discussion in this thread. Do take particular notice of input from members Someone and 2N3055.Then you could also grab a pile of posts from here and dump them in that thread to revitalise it.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 08:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 19, 2022, 07:41:12 pmMax. amplitude is +/- 2.5V at high Z and +/-1.25V on 50Ohms.This it now and this was it when I´ve bought mine in 2018.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 10:34:57 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 19, 2022, 07:41:12 pmHow does that happen?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 10:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 19, 2022, 01:55:49 pmYes, this.A new 4CH $400 DSO provides so much functionality difference to a 2nd hand old scope or a new 2CH $200 cheapie no-name digital that it's a no-brainer to fork out the extra cash.Not so much for say a new $800 scope vs the $400 ones, but it might offer something extra nice like a bigger screen or some specific extra function you really need.Once you get into the 4 digit price category then it can be argued that you are now "overkill" compared to the cheaper models for general hobbyist use.So yeah, I'd draw the line at the $799 MSO5000 as being the upper end before "overkill" kicks in for hobby use.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 10:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 19, 2022, 10:34:57 pmOverlooked my answer ?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 10:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 16, 2022, 06:50:11 pmI missed that you already have a 1054Z. The MSO5000 is a decent step up, but you wouldn't want both, so I'd sell the 1054Z if you upgraded. What is the local ebay market like?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 11:06:35 pm
content: I can't believe all this cluster**ck started because I didn't like that the 1104x-e couldn't zoom out...

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 11:32:18 pm
content: OP already has the FY6900 (50MHz +/- 10V?). So the capabilities of the generator in the MSO5000 may be irrelevant. Unless there was a plan to heavily script the scope to run tests requiring >2.5V.OP seems to want is bandwidth, which they'd get (~400MHz).Sell all the analog scopes, if you can get a decent price for them, if not keep them or give to someone else.Sell the 1054Z (Ebay has it going for $200-300). Then the final upgrade cost for the 5000 will be more reasonable (<$500?).Is $500 spent for 2yr+ use overkill? Its up to you to decide.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 11:43:32 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 19, 2022, 11:06:35 pmIt can in Zoom mode. It may be news to you but several manufacturers use this same design choice.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 05:00:40 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 19, 2022, 11:06:35 pmOf course it can.DIYcourtain mod ideais always possible, also with SDS1xxxX-EIf really do not like to see whole capture and need emulate full screen zoom in mode used in some scopes(1), as is/was also in old Siglent SDS1000CNL/CML.((1)scopes what use this full screen "zoomed in" mode as normal... for make then possible to "zoom out" when acquisition stopped)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 07:47:18 am
content: Ok, PLEASE STOP discussing the zoom out issue in this thread, if anyone does it any more I will delete the post.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-zoom-out-quirk/msg4473289/#msg4473289FYI, I have tried it on the SDS5000X and it DOES zoom out but only in fixed memory depth mode. Discuss ONLY in the thead linked please.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 08:19:25 am
content: Zooming out of OT:My opinion is thata MSO5000 is not "overkill" if you are going to use it! That's the main issue. As nico says, a hobby should bring you good memories and not be a nightmare. If every time you turn it on you'll remember the OLED TV that you didn't bought, then...For me it was definitely OVERKILL because it has been kept in the box for the last 2 or 3 years!!

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 19, 2022, 07:41:12 pmQuote from: Martin72 on October 19, 2022, 08:14:21 pmAh, so perhaps Simon inadvertently has the output on the 50Ω setting. Still, if at Hi-Z one can generate ±2.5V, that means it should be able to generate a 5V square wave, right? I do have a couple of sig gens so the built-in one is a bit of a bonus rather than a must have in any case. It wouldn't matter to me if the scope didn't have it, although it might be convenient for bode plots. The LA features are more important to me.Quote from: EEVblog on October 19, 2022, 10:43:49 pmYes, that again is helpful. Thank you. I have difficulty justifying +$999 for a hobby scope and was/am struggling with the thought of spending $850. However the larger screen would be beneficial as would bode plotting and the LA. Not so much the sig gen as already mentioned. I am already persuaded that forking out for a new scope would be more practical and sensible than looking for old scopes. The Rigol 1054Z was in that $400 bracket when I purchased it and I have never regretted the purchase.Quote from: EEVblog on October 19, 2022, 10:51:46 pmThat's why I asked the question. If I consider it an upgrade, would it make sense to keep both? What would others do? I think that has now been answered. Perhaps like mwb1100, I might also have difficulty letting go, but this has given me food for thought. On the local eBay market (UK) I am seeing these sell used for perhaps 180GBP to 250GBP. Some have sold for a little more. A brand new one costs 354GBP (which is not far off from what I paid for it). I have disregarded the inflated listings priced at > 400GPB, some even over 700GPB!Quote from: nctnico on October 19, 2022, 04:52:43 pmQuote from: tv84 on October 20, 2022, 08:19:25 amBoth of these are good points. There is no point having it just sit in its box, and, on the other hand, constantly regretting not having purchased something that could have been useful and made things easier and more pleasant. I can confidently say that it will get used. The MSO features will certainly see plenty of use, as well as the LA once I sort out a probe pod for it.Quote from: nctnico on October 19, 2022, 04:52:43 pmI know what you mean. When I first got the 1054Z, that was one of the things that initially troubled me, especially when comparing to traces on my analog scope, however I got used to it. Someone also explained to me why that is the case and how to work around it if need be, but I have rarely (if ever) felt the need to do so. Some of the additional functions have also proved to be invaluable and I could not have performed some tasks on the analog scopes. I saw the MSO5000 on display at the recent Ham-fest in Newark (UK) and the traces didn't look any worse/thicker than on the 1054Z. Thank you for pointing this out though.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 10:26:14 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 amA touch screen is a massive plus as well. After owning a Micsig for a year or so I don't think I'd like to go back to using a twisty knob for menu navigation.Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 amOscilloscopes keep their price really well. If you've looked after it you can probably sell it for almost what you paid for it.Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 amI can't think of any reason you'd want both.Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 amIn reality it's the Analog 'scope that's lying to you. They're not capable of showing the noise that's inherent in most signals.The MSO5000 noise willonlyaffect you if you can't make the overall signal as big as the screen. ie. If you're looking at 5V then it's no problem. It's only when you're down at mV level and can't increase the vertical gain any more to fill the screen.If "working at mV level" doesn't sound like you then it won't be a problem.I could live with it and many owners have probably never even noticed it. There's also settings you can apply in a pinch to reduce the noise.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 11:26:43 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 20, 2022, 10:26:14 amEverything in your post is valid statements. The bolded thing is not necessarily untrue but you have to explain what you mean by it. If you mean that by using HIRES then it is also true in a way but with caveats: it works by lowpass filtering signal. Meaning that 350MHz scope BW isn't 350MHz anymore, but 20MHz or 5MHz depending on settings and implementation. OP does work with RF and it is important to say that. You have to be careful when advising other people by informing them partially and/or selectively. It should be their decision, not your or mine...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 12:45:18 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 20, 2022, 11:26:43 amThat's why I say "in a pinch".Quote from: 2N3055 on October 20, 2022, 11:26:43 amThe MSO5000 has 8GHz sample rate to play with:If you're only looking at 1 channel you can do 8x oversampling and still have a 350MHz 'scope.With 2 channels/8x oversampling or 1 channel/16x oversampling you'll still have a 200MHz 'scope.You'll have to turn on a lot of channels and filtering to get down to 20Mhz.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 12:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 amUnless you have two benches or some other scenario where the old one could be used, no, not worth keeping at all. You'll find it will just gather dust.And as someone who uses multiple scopes in the lab, it annoying to swap back and forth with different models with different usability.Better bet to sell it and stick the money into crypto or something as a gamble(or buy some other useful tool for the lab)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 01:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 20, 2022, 12:45:18 pm"In a pinch" comment is hiding data by being cute.The rest of explanation is what I had in mind.8x will yield limited improvements. With it MSO5000 will barely be en par with some other 8 bit scopes and still worse than Micsig STO1104, Siglent SDS110X-E etc.. But user will see positive difference using it and if they don't need lowest noise scope, it might be just fine.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 03:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 amI have world-class procrastination skills. Too bad that's not marketable.Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 amIn my quick look at US eBay, it looks like all the offerings are at or higher than just buying a new one. Maybe any that come up for a reasonable price get snapped up quickly?

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 04:18:27 pm
content: That's how things often work on eBay. Anything that's there for long is overpriced, and anything reasonably priced sells quickly. Try searching for sold listings.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 04:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 20, 2022, 10:26:14 amQuote from: 2N3055 on October 20, 2022, 11:26:43 amIn connection with that, I saw a comment on another thread that mentioned that one can get a $5 amplifier gizmo that can allow one to work around very low amplitude signals by amplifying them to a range that the scope can better handle. Unfortunately the comment didn't go into any further detail. Doers anyone know what this might have been talking about and what would I need to look for?Also, since such an amplifier would be inserted into the signal path. wouldn't have an impact on the usable bandwidth of the channel it is connected to? Might it also affect the signal in other ways that one should be aware of? For example, would a $5 gizmo have a sufficiently low noise characteristic to make a difference?Quote from: EEVblog on October 20, 2022, 12:45:23 pmI do, as a matter of fact, have two small benches. The repair work and heavier duty stuff (vintage radio etc) gets done in the "workshop" (i.e. shed), but mucking about with Arduinos, MCUs and computer stuff gets done next to the PC workstation in a cleaner environment indoors in a small utility room. I have limited space in both areas and didn't want Arduino projects cluttering up the repair workspace. The PM3094 has the greater bandwidth and is much larger, but the 1054Z has more advanced functions. The modern scopes are light and portable enough to move around easily per requirements at each desk which would be an advantage. Hence a bit of a dilema. Of course, I can only be working at one desk at any one time. If I had the one work area then the decision would be that much simpler.Quote from: EEVblog on October 20, 2022, 12:45:23 pmI regularly switch between a digital and old analog scopes so I do take your point on that. It doesn't bother me too much, but thinking about it, I do see that there would be an advantage to sticking to one instrument that one learns to use and knows well.Quote from: mwb1100 on October 20, 2022, 03:28:39 pmYou are not alone! I have some health issues that can sometime furnish me with an excuse, but I can be a bit of a hoarder, not willing to let go of something because it might, just might, be useful sometime in the future. I have to get strict with myself from time to time and have a clearout of "stuff". Acting too rashly can also lead to poor decisions made in haste. I am not sure which is the worse....Quote from: alm on October 20, 2022, 04:18:27 pmalm, I know that was in reply to mwb1100 and that is exactly what I also did. It seems to provide a more realistic estimate of what buyers are actually willing to pay as opposed to what some would like to sell for. There is no shortage of the 1054Z's and its still a current model so there seems to be no reason for anyone to be paying above the manufacturers RRP. I presume there must be a market, otherwise dropshipping would not work, although it seems to me that such tactics are designed to catch out those who haven't done their homework. Anyway, I am wandering of-topic....

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 05:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 04:58:45 pmYeah go back there and read where there is explanation why it is not so...

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2022, 06:41:48 pm
content: Yep, will have another look tomorrow to see if I can find it.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 01:00:32 am
content: Quote from: alm on October 20, 2022, 04:18:27 pmI already gave OP the going rate for 1054Z on ebay uk based on sold listings.$200-300, definitely worth selling.Maybe try to sell locally first if you are patient.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 02:05:13 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on October 21, 2022, 01:00:32 amI sold mine via. the EEVBLOG forum's "Buy/Sell/Wanted" section.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 06:25:24 am
content: Couldn't resist.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 10:04:30 am
content: I think I found it:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso5074-or-siglent-sds2104x-plus/msg3293874/#msg3293874Posts 21 to 23. There's a link to this signal amplifier:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000267287145.htmlAnyone know what that N02 device on the board might be? It doesn't look terribly difficult to make something like that in a small Edison box.Quote from: EEVblog on October 21, 2022, 06:25:24 amDidn't imagine that my humble question would be video worthy, but thank you. :-)Some interesting replies already on YT.

author: trampas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 03:25:30 pm
content: The MSO5074 is good scope. I have one that has been hacked to be MSO5354I now have some python scripts that control AWG and reads data for doing some transducer impedance measurements. I love the scope, number of samples it can capture and so forth. It is a great scope for general embedded.I have the logic analyzer probe, but never used it. The Saleae logic analyzer I have works too well to even try the one on the scope.Over all the only things I do not like about this scope is the bit depth and noise floor. I brought the scope in August and considering getting rid of it and getting an HDO4000 as I am doing more low noise stuff and the old 35670A is showing its age.However for $800 it is a hell of a scope and worth the money.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 06:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 20, 2022, 05:59:08 pmThanks for the reply, but the post I found (see link in the post above) only mentions and gives a link to the amplifier gizmo (so I now know what it looks like at least) but gives no explanation. I looked checked the rest of ther thread and looked for your post. I did find one, but on another topic. If there is another reference somewhere (I am still searching) then I would appreciate some indication where it is please.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 07:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 04:58:45 pmThere's a whole series about building/using amplifiers here:Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 04:58:45 pmObviously any device inserted in the pathway has the potential to do that. It'll depend on the device.Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 amFor "Arduino" I find my Micsig to be perfect in terms of desk space and abilities. Much better than the Rigol DS1054Z I had before that,(Arduino is what I mostly do)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 08:11:45 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 21, 2022, 06:44:57 pmI disagree it is viable strategy...Fungus keeps repeating this all the time...I don't know why.He can explain how he thinks it works.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 08:25:32 pm
content: I watched the video, haven't read this whole thread, but I think it's an interesting proposition.For a friend setting up his lab for 1kEUR a year back, obviously fitting in a 800euro scope isn't going to work. So instead, I recommended him a Rigol 1054Z. I got the quite similar 1074Z-S for about 700euro in 2014 IIRC..The question is, what features make a scope overkill?- >=100MHz BW?- >=1MPts of memory?- intensity graded display and/or >1k wfm/s?- >= 2 analog channels?- mixed signal scope?- serial decode/triggering in software or even hardware?- hi-res mode?- high resolution ADC/low noise frontend?To be honest.. I don't think a lot of hobbyists really need all of this. Well maybe the 4ch analog channels is the one exception.. but other than that.Bandwidth: what signals are you going to measure? Maybe harmonics of digital signals, e.g. signal integrity of digital buses, at best? But is a hobbyist going to design the next-gen high speed serial bus standard? Or route SQI/HyperRAM microcontroller/FPGA boards every day?Memory depth: anything in kpts range is limiting.. but at some point (I'd say around Mpts) the scope can capture such long signals that it's almost impractical to analyze manually on a small screen with a limited user interface. My PC has far more controls and I can use scripts if need be. Similarly, I wouldn't recommended upgrading scope for MSO functions. Just get a logic analyzer instead IMO.Anything acquisition related: intensity grading, update rate, hi-res, low noise.. Sure this is all nice andbetter. It may also catch the very hard to trace bug in your design. But what projects are you working on? Something for fun to keep you busy, or something that is on-par with your professional work?So I do wonder at what level a typical hobbyist is working at. Sure you have a mix people, e.g. professional engineers that work on a whole range of things (from FPGAs to IoT to PSU stuff). Those projects will be quite different. But perhaps also makers that want to test their gadgets or test signals on their drone. But then to summarize: I think a majority will spend time on debugging a MCU board, test some power supplies (sequencing, overshoot, ripple), look at some LF analog signals (<=8MHz), check if a crystal oscillator is running.. and maybe check some signal buses (I2C, SPI) for signal levels and perhaps edges.If stuff is getting more crazy, like digital protocols, there are better tools to intensely work with than a scope.I personally think that, thanks to the familiar asian vendors,cheaposcilloscopes have outpaced the speed at which a typical hobbyists would work with. Designs with 50MHz+ digital signals aren't so straight forward. Or PCBs that need to process sub-mV signals carefully. A scope that has more BW, memory, features and knobs is nice but to some degree more gadget-y IMO.Now don't get me wrong.. I am amazed at the bang/buck available. It seems like 300-400$ is the threshold for which I would consider getting a new scope. It gets you 4ch, 50-100MHz, serial decode, advanced triggers, thousands of waveforms/second, hi-res mode, and USB/ethernet connections. That MSO5000 more than doubles on some specs, so that makes it seem more than worth it.In terms of future proofing.. I don't know. My Rigol 4ch model was also around 800EUR, which seems like a neat price point at which hobbyists are still willing to pay for a bang/buck scope. But don't forget that technology will always move forward fast. Rigol recently released those HDO scopes for a bit more money with a focus on analog while dropping some (read: quite a bit) of the tailoring towards digital designs. Well, when will we see that merge into a general purpose analog/digital scope that say has a 4ch 4-8GS/s 10/12-bit ADC, hundreds of MPts of memory, hundred-k's of wfms/s, for <1k$ (minus inflation)? I bet it's going to happen in 5-10 years time. It's a logical progression of capitalism where competition is going to catch up, so in order to keep retail prices up they need to innovate.In 30 years time we probably will have affordable 1GHz 8ch scopes with 16-bit ADCs and an optional brain-machine interface so that we can see more than 30fps worth of display data visualized in more than 3 dimensions. So much for "lasting a lifetime"

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 09:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 21, 2022, 06:44:57 pmThe first step is to determine what input signal levels & frequencies you are dealing with. The link you copied seems to be an MMIC based RF amplifier. The noise figure of 2dB isn't stellar though.IMHO the whole discussion about what is overkill or not is entirely moot. There are people spending > $5k on mountainbikes, dirt bikes, audio gear or even a BBQ. Somebody I know, spend like 30k euro on an audio amplifier and a couple of speakers.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 09:16:37 pm
content: Hi,Quote from: hansYepp, mostly they´ve been told they needed it.And somekind of funny, it not long ago scopes costs really vaste amount of money, now you can get usable ones for appx 400 bucks.But somehow it´s expected they´re performing as well as the expensive ones.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 10:03:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 21, 2022, 09:05:18 pmNailed it, 100% !None of us can quantify another's spend as overkill, none of us !The hobbyist skier, sportsman, racer, engineer would all look on a $800 scope spend as chump change.Hell, when I was young I spent more on a shotgun just for claybird shooting.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 10:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 21, 2022, 08:11:45 pmI'll explain it right after you explain how "noise" magically stops right at the point where Siglent oscilloscopes run out of vertical gain.But ... you never explained it last time around, and we've already been warned to stay on topic in this thread.The only reason I answered is because amplifiers might make an interesting video topic for Dave. Is a $5 Aliexpress amplifier going to make a difference?(...except he already sent back his MSO5000)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 10:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 21, 2022, 10:03:05 pmSure we can.We've been mocking the $2k speaker cable buyers since at least the 1970s.If a $5k mountain bike doesn't buy much over a $1k bike then we can mock the $5k bike buyers as idiots.Maybe the time of the $800 oscilloscope is here.(for the "hobbyist" user - there's always going to be a small percentage of people who need extra...no argument there, but it's not everybody)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 10:23:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 21, 2022, 10:03:48 pmNot for the internal noise. What you want from an external amplifier is to amplify in a signal that is below the measurement range of the instrument. In addition the amplifier will need to have a low enough noise floor in order not to drown the signal in noise from the amplifier itself. IOW: an external amplifier is not going to make the noise performance of the MSO5000 better. Once noise is added at some point in the signal chain, it cannot be removed (without removing any of the frequency spectrum from the signal).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 10:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 21, 2022, 10:23:18 pmOf course not, but you'll be able to see the signal.What an amplifier does is change a thing called the "signal to noise ratio".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 11:15:55 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 21, 2022, 10:44:03 pmAn amplifier will always add noise and thus make things worse. So yes, the signal to noise ratio will be different but not in a positive sense.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 11:21:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 21, 2022, 11:15:55 pmHow much?Quote from: nctnico on October 21, 2022, 11:15:55 pmYou're saying it will increase the noise more that the signal?

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 11:42:18 pm
content: Hello,For example, if the SNR is better at 1 V/div than at 1 mV/div then a good amplifier can shift the small input signal to the range with better SNR and be quite useful.Best regardsegonotto

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 11:46:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 21, 2022, 11:15:55 pmHow can you make such a blanket statement? Say you have a 10 mVrms signal and a 10:1 signal to noise ratio (so 1 mVrms noise), a scope with a noise floor of 5 mVrms, and a 10x amplifier with also a 10:1 signal to noise ratio. Without amplifier the scope would display a 10 mVrms signal with 5 mVrms noise (1^2 + 5^2 ~ 5^2), a 2:1 signal to noise ratio. That's not very usable.With amplifier the output of the amplifier would be a 100 mVrms signal with 14 mVrms noise, or a 7:1 signal to noise ratio, which is indeed worse than the original 10:1 ratio. But if you then feed it into the scope, the scope will display a 100 mVrms signal with 15 mVrms noise, or a signal to noise ratio of 6.7:1, which is a lot better than 2:1. So the signal to noise ratio on the scope screen is a lot lower. This principle is often used in measuring power supply noise, for example seeLT AN-124by Jim Williams.Treating the noise of a scope front-end as constant is a good first order approximation at high vertical sensitivities. As you decrease the sensitivity it tends towards a constant ratio of the vertical sensitivity.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2022, 11:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on October 21, 2022, 11:42:18 pmIMHO you can't use SNR together with visualising a signal. If you amplify a signal, you'll add noise so compared to the original signal, the SNR will be worse. The fact that a higher amplitude signal is easier for an oscilloscope (or any measuring device) to work with doesn't change that.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 12:48:46 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 21, 2022, 10:13:16 pmYes but no one is an idiot outright and deserves to be mocked,ifa difference exists (audiophiles are out), the person has money, and uses the product. Its simply a matter of diminishing returns.The same applies to almost any consumer product out there.https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_value_available.html

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 01:53:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 21, 2022, 11:59:29 pmI can't believe you are serious.Any amplifier would amplify in equal extent the signal *and* the noise presented to its input, while adding a little bit of noise itself. Of course, it won't improve the SNR of the original signal in any way. However, here the assumption is not that the SNR of the original signal is too low to get a decent representation, but that the sensitivity of the input amplifier of the scope is at its limit (can't discern between signal and noise). So, amplifying the original signal would help presenting to the input stage of the scope a signal with an amplitude high enough so the noise it adds is not that relevant anymore.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:02:32 am
content: A SNR is a ratio. It's unitless. You can have a 60dB SNR for 1Hz signals with thermal noise floor of -174dBm. Then your signal to measure is still -114dBm. That's 4e-15 W of power, or 0.44uVrms into 50Ohm. For sure RF receivers can detect that, but those also use techniques like matched filters and other forms of correlation.(Analog) amplifiers always adds noise, or in other words, each stage has a noise figure which is greater than 1 (0dB). This means that SNR can only go down. The best LNA's may utilize noise-cancellation, but even those still have 1-2dB NF due to imbalances and other noise sources that can't be cancelled.Quantization noise on the other hand is fixed. It's related to Vref and the number of bits. If your signal amplitude isn't utilizing range, then your signal is too weak. If your A/D has more quantization noise than your signal, you should use a higher resolution A/D. Both conditions can also be true, and then you're probably measuring crap. If only signal range is true but not the noise, then it's of no use to amplify further. You could "trade" A/D resolution for amplification given that the signal is noisy enough, especially now that 12-bit A/Ds or higher have become common ground it's a neat trick..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:05:22 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 21, 2022, 10:03:48 pmI did explain to the length. It's just you either have no mental capacity to understand (because there was enough repetitions) or you have an agenda.. go figure that one out..

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:25:04 am
content: Quote from: alm on October 21, 2022, 11:46:16 pmDepends on the way how attenuator and gain stages and their interaction are designed. A 100:1 attenuation followed by 10x gain is certainly noisier than a 10:1 attenuation alone. Some scopes (at least some cheap ones) are not optimized in this sense, but attenuate only in coarse steps (e.g. 100:1, 10:1) and then re-amplify the signal. Then 10V/div, 1V/div and 100mV/div have a similarly good SNRFS, while 2V/div and 200mV/div are 14dB noisier (for example).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 09:41:55 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 21, 2022, 10:13:16 pmOf course you can claim that.Since you routinely take a liberty to make all kinds of decisions for other people including hiding data, recommending stuff you never saw in real life, explaining and advocating stuff you don't understand and such.It is quite a leap from calling an idiot a person that gives 5000 USD for speaker cables that I can buy for 20 USD, and a person that wants to buy 1500USD scope instead of 800USD scope, or 800USD scope instead of 350 USD scope.These scope WILL have measurable differences in specifications and will in fact provide additional benefit for increased cost.Whether that is important to purchaser it is only theirs choice.For instance, my eyesight is not what it used to be.. I realized that I use Picoscope (with 23" screen) and SDS6000A more than my Keysight MSOX3104T for pretty much anything because it is simply easier to see because of bigger screen. So someone might splurge for MSO5000 even if DS1000Z would have been scope enough for them only for bigger screen. Someone will have to go for SDS200X+ if they want 50 Ω signal path in a scope or 500+ MHz BW.OR if they want 50 Ω and 2 ch is enough from them they might go for odl DS2000A from Rigol they might get on sale from Rigol for very little money. Or something else ,whatever...Some will work mostly on small signals and would need a scope that is better there.What we can and should discuss is our opinions as to what we would and would not buy for ourselves and rationale behind our decisions so other people can have a point of reference and as a discussion.I know, for instance, that on hobby stuff I have a sort of limit that is based on social environment I live in. I can justify buying MSOX1104T for work, where it paid off itself with time. But for "it's for playing", it is different.It will be different for each country, and general economic status of each person.I don't think there is a universal rule that would apply to all.In some countries 100 USD is 2 months of food and in some it is pocket change.Not to mention huge socioeconomic spread even in 1st world countries. In USA alone there are tens of millions of people in poverty. I assure you they have different purchasing power than someone earning 100K USD a year..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:23:32 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 22, 2022, 09:41:55 amIt's about diminishing returns, not absolute price.I'm not at the point where I'd call somebody an "idiot" for owning a $1500 Siglent, but I unlike certain forum members wouldn't look down on people who bought something less than that.As Dave's video points out: We live in a time when an $800 'scope isenoughfor just about anybody.Most people would befarbetter off spending that extra $500-$600 on something else than the Siglent. eg. A decent soldering iron/power supply/etc. That's my opinion and theonlything I've ever tried to express here, ie. look at the bigger picture.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:42:54 am
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on October 22, 2022, 01:53:02 amStill, what you see on screen also contains noise from the amplifier. Real world example: recently I did some measurements on low level RF signals that where below my spectrum analyser's noise floor. I used an amplifier that has 20dB of gain in the frequency range I was measuring. This got me about 10 to 15dB extra room. Not 20dB.Again: IMHO you need to be really carefull to throw terms like SNR around for purpose of overcoming a limitation in a device to do measurements on a signal. IOW: 'improving' SNR is not the right term. Better call it amplification or magnification.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 11:05:47 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 22, 2022, 10:42:54 amPlease explain to us how it "made things worse".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 11:10:22 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 22, 2022, 09:05:22 amMaybe some sort of link to that so people can judge for themselves...?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 11:10:48 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 22, 2022, 11:05:47 amSimple: the original signal now has 5dB to 10dB of extra noise on top so SNR got worse.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 11:39:27 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 22, 2022, 11:10:48 amHo do you keep "extra room" and "got worse" in your head simultaneously? I'd love to know.(and why were you using an amplifier if you've already explained to us why Siglents never need one?)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 11:53:24 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 22, 2022, 11:39:27 amIt should be clear that the original signal is distorted with extra noise after the amplifier. Only the strongest parts of the signal remain. The finer details are gone forever.QuoteI never wrote that!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 11:54:52 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 22, 2022, 10:23:32 amThat is exactly what I'm saying. There is a difference. If it matters to particular person it's up to them. I personally recommended on numerous occasions to people to buy DS1000Z or SDS110XX-E instead of more expensive scope, if budget was tight and it was good fit for them. Dropping 80% of all your money on scope when you like tinkering with voltage references is bad decision. It would make more sense to buy 350-400USD decent entry level scope and a good bench multimeter or a two. Also I think people should buy "good enough" equipment and spend their money on projects. Otherwise they are just instrument collectors. Which is also OK, but then all this "rational choice" thing goes out of the window.I disagree with Dave making such a blanket statement. I would say "many" people not "just about anybody". People that doesn't do any daliy practical work can sometimes lose contact with how it actually is when you do some actual work..Point of diminishing returns comment needs clarification: it is only point of diminishing returns if you already accomplished your goals and you are needlessly optimizing.If there is a need that is not fulfilled sometimes you need to pay twice for a single feature. If that is what you need, you can't say "point of diminishing returns".

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 12:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 22, 2022, 11:05:47 amIn an ideal world the only character of a amplifier would be the amplification of the signal and nothing else.In real he got several characters which will be added to the signal.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 12:19:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 22, 2022, 11:39:27 amIt is simple.Scope A has 1mV RMS noise on 1V range (full vertical screen, not per/div to make it simpler) that is dynamic range of 1:1000.Scope B has 100uV RMS noise on 1V range (full vertical screen) that is dynamic range of 1:10000. That is 10x more.Preamp will only shift this intrinsic dynamic range to lower voltages (and it will be little worse for preamps own noise).Preamps will have it's own BW (both lower and upper and linearity of it), phase distortions (group delays), it's input and output impedance that has to be matched to DUT and scope respectively. Also their characteristics have to be characterized and normalized in some way on a scope to make measurements.Like I said many times before, they are useful for specific jobs, require knowledge of preamp, DUT, scope and all practice involving it's use. You will usually have dozens of them for different purposes. Just ask RF people how many amp, preamps, LNA, attenuators and all kind of crap they have if they work with just different frequencies (on 50Ω systems that should be well standardized).Preamps with scopes are specialist equipment that are not replacement/fix for scope bad characteristics. Scope input is marvel of universality. One size fits kind of stuff. That is what makes scope such an universal instrument. From 10s of uV to 100s of volts with just a flick of a button. Fast and easy.Can there be workarounds for specific use. Of course they can. But it gets old fast.Stop inventing stupid excuses how something that is worse is not "if you just do this trick".. It ain't so.In this pathetic struggle to prove you're right by getting yourself involved into topics that are technically way over your head, you didn't even notice there is consensus being made that:A. MSO5000 is noisy. No amount of lying, hiding and delusional thinking can change that. That one you lost.B. For many people it might not be a problem. But they have to be aware of shortcomings and make informed decisions to chose it. In case it is good enough for them it is very good hobby scope. Even good for noncritical pro work.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 01:50:30 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 22, 2022, 12:19:01 pmThis is irrelevant when it comes to observing a signal on the screen. A 8-bit scope will only fit roughly 200 ADC levels vertically, and a 10-bit scope will fit 820 levels (scopes have 20% of ADC range reserved for top and bottom display margins so they are not visible when the signal is centered with zero vertical offset). On 1V range a test signal will look the same for both your 1:1000 case, and 1:10000 case.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 02:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 22, 2022, 01:50:30 pmWell I have 3x 12 bit scopes and a 16bit one.Some of these big screen touch scopes support real vertical zoom where you can stretch signal on the screen..Also that is just neat numbers to illustrate math.But you are making a good point. In real life we have comparison of a scope that has less than 100 points vertically (because of noise) to one that has 200..And when using FFT, because of software gain, much bigger difference..

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 03:17:53 pm
content: This thread has gone round in circles for orbits of the earthFWIW's this is my take on this:I have many scopes personally, some fall into the catagory Dave's video mentioned with rolled eyes (lol), some are what I would consider to be a basic. However they all perform the same job to a greater or lesser degree.You have to ask yourself whatdo I really needin a bench scope & features for my personal EE projects?Look at your budget, look at what other equipment you could obtain for this outlay as well?A well-equipped hobbyist lab will benefit from more than just a 2K usd scope imhoQuality cutters, tweezers, pliers, soldering station, lights, microscope are all used daily along with a good DVM, prototyping board, a PC / Lap top software the list goes on.........keep a balanced view it will pay dividends in the long run. Make life easy for yourself having a good scope is great, but also having a smooth running and easy to use and hassle free (‘ish) free lab imho is more preferable that having a single star item.What are you looking for in a scope, BW, resolution, sample rate, memory depth, probe support, logic analysis, gain accuracy, jitter apps etc.Oh and cost that’s the big one?What we would really like and what reality turns out to be are usually not the same.I use a mixture of Keysight/Rigol/Siglent/Lecroy scopes, each has a place and each is capable of doing the job it has been allocated for.We are power supply (linear & smps)/mixed signal/high speed serial data chaps, so larger BW/12bit/quality apps are essential for ourselves, at home my scopes are 12bit 200Mhz daily drivers with one 4Ghz 12 bit. On the audio repair bench Rigol & Siglent scopes they are also on the project bench. They perform admirably well for cost and feature set.My advice would be to think about what you REALLY need to make your projects fun, meaning and insightful, but also think about how many other day to day tools you could also obtain if you didn't need 20G/s & 2Gp of memory!Also remeber that specilist probes & software arn't always a hack away, and everyone's own level of experinace is different, there are some very clever chaps will special skill sets here who do share their expertise and knowledge.Also remember that your lab is your domain and know and understand your person limitations and aspirations and what your goals are.The question posed is very pertinent and very valid.Prehaps this could be the start of a series of threads (new section Dave?) helping young and upcoming EE's choose quality low cost lab equipment for day to day use, why do you chaps feel?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 03:54:06 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 22, 2022, 03:17:53 pmIMHO those already exist on this forum. Besides test equipment there are also several tool related sections. Still I disagree with tools needing to be low cost specifically. I'd say 'worth spending money on'.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 03:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 22, 2022, 03:17:53 pmThe problem is that newbies never know that.(and the resident salesmen have an easy time going in and spreading FUD as soon as they spot the "what 'scope should I buy?" thread)

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 04:24:51 pm
content: QuoteAt least they know that they need a scope..That´s worth a lot.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 04:56:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 22, 2022, 03:58:48 pmAnd some resident trolls confuse them with false statements. Such is Internet.Who do you address here: a salesmen from R&S, a salesmen from Keysight or a salesmen from Siglent? Or all of them?As for Siglent, Tautech helped many people regardless of what they were buying. Yes he can be a bit enthusiastic sometimes. He doesn't work for Siglent, but has its own company. He believes in stuff he sells and company that makes it. That is how it should be. He is open about selling Siglent and it is in his signature. And what do you think he gains by helping a person from Italy or France? He's from New Zealand, also an public knowledge.Other people From Keysight and R&S work for the manufacturers and might have direct interest, but despite that have been perfectly professional and never crossed the line.If there are any other salesmen here I don't know about them...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 22, 2022, 04:56:44 pmI can show you a couple of posts that prove otherwise. From inappropriate to the question at hand to some that got tautech banned to cool off for a while. On top of that his knowledge seems limited and doesn't exceed what he is selling. Not exactly a source of balanced / unbiased information. He looks like a good Siglent dealer to buy from though. One really cares for his customers and goes above and beyond -don't get me wrong there-.QuoteThere are quite a few on this forum that have undisclosed interests in Siglent.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 22, 2022, 05:05:20 pmI'll take your word for it. I don't exactly follow his every post and he has been here on forum for much longer than I am.As for "undisclosed ones", there are many here that seem that way for number of other brands. People who fight for Rigol DS1000Z with fervor and then sell it and then have same passion for Micsig. You yourself advocate Tek and R&S whenever you can. Do you have any vested interest? Or you just like it and are passionate about your choices?Or what about "don't buy chinese shit" crowd, what is their motivation? Do they get paid to do it or just have strong political motives?Being paranoid is slippery slope.Sure there can be all kinds of people here.That is why we have to fight it with real data and civilized discussion.Dave himself made a problem himself on occasion, with few of his videos where he chose clickbait titles. Not that i blame him for anything, that is the business he's in.Problem with clickbait topics and videos is that clickbait title gets remembered and rational discussion is too long to read. So bombastic statement stays even if it is explained inside that it is the opposite or something third.Not that it is his or anybody's intention to confuse but it happens anyways sometimes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 22, 2022, 05:24:50 pmNope. Read more carefully. I own / have owned & used almost every brand of oscilloscope that is out there. Based on that I try to recommend what I think is most suitable for the given situation. If you read my posts, you'll see I also recommend oscilloscopes from GW Instek, Lecroy, Micsig or Yokogawa. But you'll also find me pointing out what I think are the shortcomings. On top of that, I also like people to consider options that are mentioned less often on this forum where many seem to Pavlov / knee-jerk towards Rigol or Siglent without considering what else is out there. I like to think that it helps people to make a well informed decission taking all options into account (although in some cases it leads to analysis paralysis)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 07:47:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 22, 2022, 05:46:50 pmI know you are not, just saying that you are quite "passionate" about your choices sometimes and that could be construed for something else, when in fact it is simply that you have formed you opinions with time and stand by them.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 08:42:59 pm
content: I kind of draw the line at someone wanting to talk all about one of their peices of equipment instead of the topic at hand, the next time he does that he will be made to stop.

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 10:06:58 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 22, 2022, 09:41:55 amThis. When I bought my first scope in 2015ish, my budget was $200. I could have afforded more but was doing at most one smallish project per year so I knew this was a casual hobby. I am sure there was some $400 Rigol model at the time that was the eevblog-blessed minimum scope, but that would have been overkill for my needs and budget. I ended up with a picoscope 2204a (so was my first signal generator, too) and had enough leftover to also buy my first temperature-controlled soldering iron (fixed-temperature Weller) that was orders of magnitude better than the crappy iron I had been using. I learned so much with that scope, had many hours of enjoyment, and made some projects that I still use frequently.Many newbies looking for their first scope know little about electronics and cannot know whether it is a hobby that will “stick.” And when they state a budget well below the cost of a ds1054z, there are often posts basically telling them to increase their budget. I do realize this is part of the eevblog dogma, along with the belief that a usb scope cannever(!) be a substitute for a bench scope. But for people with fewer resources, or those of us with other priorities for our finances, the party line sometimes makes zero sense.I upgraded my scope this summer, because I am spending many more hours on electronics and wanted at least 100 MHz bandwidth. I went with a 2-channel usb scope. Why? Because of the high cost of 4-channel models (although I could have afforded one if I wanted it that much), and of course because one of those bench scopes canneverbe a substitute for a proper usb scopeJason

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:16:54 am
content: Quote from: jasonRF on October 22, 2022, 10:06:58 pmThat is true. IMHO one of the many cheap $50 mini oscilloscopes from Aliexpress/Amazon can already do a lot. 30+ years ago I would have traded my 20 MHz analog scope (which in today's money had cost the same as a Rigol MSO5000) for one of those devices without thinking.

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:32:56 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 23, 2022, 12:16:54 amSometimesanyfunctional scope is better than no scope!At the same time, I don’t think it would be overkill for the OP to buy this scope, or even one that is significantly more expensive. If they can afford it and will get enjoyment out of it then why shouldn’t they? We only live once!

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:37:16 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 22, 2022, 10:42:54 amTrue, but let's not forget what we are talking about here: would an amplifier help MSO5000 display low level signals which otherwise would be buried in noise? Yes, it would.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:22:51 am
content: Yes, but you can not say that SNR has improved (it has not); that is my point!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:40:29 am
content: Quote from: jasonRF on October 23, 2022, 12:32:56 amAlways!Quote from: jasonRF on October 22, 2022, 10:06:58 pmAlways!One thing that usually isn't added though is that the $400 'scopes keep their value really well. You can probably sell it in a year and it only cost you as much as a cheap FNIRSI (which you won't be able to sell).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:41:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 23, 2022, 02:22:51 amYes, it'syourpoint, and it's irrelevant.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:52:31 am
content: Quote from: jasonRF on October 22, 2022, 10:06:58 pm"Hobby" today usually includes Arduinos, etc., and a Picoscope 2204a can't even show the out put of an Arduino pin going at full speed.Quote from: jasonRF on October 22, 2022, 10:06:58 pmFrom what I can see, USB 'scopes have poor bang:buck.(and something is wrong when you have to think twice about buying 4 channels these days - it's such an advantage...)The other downside of USB 'scopes is that they're USB - you're forced to work alongside a PC. Even a FNIRSI has a big advantage in this respect. Would you want to own a PC-only multimeter?

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:55:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 23, 2022, 02:22:51 amHello,You are right that SNR of the signal has gotten worse. But the SNR of the representation of the signal can get better if the noise of the scope in the sensitive area is to blame.Therefore, a preamplifier can sometimes mitigate the disadvantage of the poor noise behavior of the Rigol MSO5000. Hameg once had the HZ 37 preamplifier for their oscillographs.Best Regardsegonotto

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:14:45 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 22, 2022, 05:46:50 pmFor a newbie? It invariably leads to analysis paralysis, often followed by "I'd better buy the most expensive one, just in case".The thing that annoys me most is the FUD.For example: Every time Micsig is mentioned there's a certain forum member who'll post "Beware the Micsig, it doesn't do statistics!"If you're a newbie, that's FUD.I admit it's weird that Micsig don't add that feature but can you live without it? Of course you can. If I need an average value I can squint my eyes at the jumping numbers and see it's approx. X.XX. If I need more accuracy I could press "single" half a dozen times and add the numbers up on my calculator then divide by 6. It would take me half a minute (heavens above!)Would I throw away the big touch screen, easy-to-navigate UI, etc., just to get a convenient statistics button? Never in a million years!A newbie doesn't see that though, all he sees is that it might be missing a checkbox item that some random EEVBLOG member says is essential.The same goes for MSO5000 noise: Newbies come in asking about the MSO5000 and immediately get hot with the "noise" question. They suddenly have to know how much the noise will affect them and of course they have no idea. The FUD merchants instantly go to work again...I'm not sure I'd even recommend an $800 'scope to somebody who doesn't know if they need to look at mV signals or not. I sure as hell wouldn't start trying to sell them a $1400 'scope instead. Plenty of people here have no problem doing that though.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:33:10 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 02:52:31 amWell, MSO5000 cannot show risetime of Arduino output realistically either.. You really need a 1GHz scope and active probe to see it.. So where we draw the line?As for bang for buck on USB scope, again, you should prefix/suffix your statement with "for my use case" or "in my opinion, although never used one". I can argue they are very good bang for buck, because being PC dependent is not a problem but a virtue because it gains you many good things. 23" screen in full 4k resolution and 32 different viewpoints if you wish is there (even on cheapest hardware) etc etc. They decode more protocols than fully loaded Keysight MSOX3104T... They have great API where within half an hour you can start analysing data, and data transfer is blindingly fast compared to embedded scopes.If your use of the scope is pretty much what you would do on analog CRT (view waveform, maybe use cursors, basic measurements) thenneither Picoscope nor any of the more sophisticated embedded scope make no sense. If you use digital scope as signal analyser than Picoscopes have many advanced features form high end scopes. But if you don't need them, then they obviously are not for you, duh. Simple as that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:54:32 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 08:33:10 amA 16Mhz Arduino can output an 8Mhz signal on a pin. An MSO5000 would show that quite well.Your 10MHz Picoscope? Not so much.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:56:44 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 03:14:45 amAgain, "I don't use it, so it is not important to anybody.." shit.Micsig doesn't do statistics on measurements. If you don't understand why is that basic requirement, that even 100 USD scopes have it and why it is important, than you have no clue how to use scope, have no knowledge about measurement science and should stop posting any "advice" about scopes to beginners because you have no clue. Be an responsible adult and stop.Same with noise. Every instrument have noise floor. Learning about noise floor and noise processes in general is, like, half of the electronics... Some have higher noise floor, some lower. It is something that has to be taught not hidden, so Fungus can sell more MSO5000 to people. If MSO5000 is good enough in that regard (and best buy for money for a hobby users) than that is it, but it didn't make noise go away, it just made it acceptable within circumstances.Noise argument wasn't even mentioned as a problem by me in this topic (i mentioned it because it is true, but I said it probably is OK for OP and said there is no alternative to MSO5000 based on price, especially after last price drop). Noise argument was from other topic (talk about who wants to confuse people to win an argument) where the likes of you tried to argue that when comparing MSO5000 to SDS2000X+ there is no difference in noise level that should bother people. Now, that was different topic from this one, and there we have proven there is huge difference in noise levels and for people who have money they should upgrade to better scope in that regard because it was worth it. And after all your bickering about how noise doesn't matter and we are all shills, Rigol releases 2 new scopes that as primary sales pitch have "we have low noise that makes us great". So you might check with Rigol whether you are wrong, if you don't trust us...All the FUD and uncertainty here is spread by the likes of you who come with blanket statements and opinionated comments founded in lack of knowledge, strong personal opinions that have nothing to do with data and Muttley Snickers persona that just likes anarchy..And yes I do call out people by name not by " some dudes hurt my feelings"...And to be P.C. I am not attacking you and your person. Just commenting on your behaviour.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:57:58 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 08:54:32 amReally ? You really have no clue what I am talking about here ?Yeah, that explains things..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:01:29 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 08:57:58 amThis last post combined with all that SNR crap on the last page?You're trolling. Pure and simple.(page bookmarked so I can point people to it in the future whenever 2N3055 rears his head)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:05:22 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 09:01:29 amReally, you think you know more than a professional EE ?Take a reality checkplease!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:06:56 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 09:01:29 amYou brought up SNR and was wrong.You keep saying all this allegedly technical terms but have no clue how to explain any of it .Then when math proves you wrong you start a debate club, do non sequiturs, and character assassinations.If anybody is troll it is you . Bunch of unverified data, truisms and when called out you shout foul play.You are simply anarchist that like to see things burn...

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:44:40 am
content: Yes! as a hobbyist I would try to keep my oscilloscope costs under $400digital with screen capture, save to USB , two channel or more , over 40MHz self-contained unit.-a bonus would be a inbuilt signal generator, over 100MHzI would avoid a single channel kit of parts. , unless you have another oscilloscope to test it.a two channel 30MHz vintage analog oscilloscope is way better then most kit toy scopes,I would try to save more for other equipment on the work bench, when just starting out in the hobby .IMO

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:51:20 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 23, 2022, 09:44:40 amRigol DS 1000Z or Siglent SDS1104X-E are answer for you but no siggen. Also Micsig ( no statistics, but very interesting scope, big screen portable)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:23:14 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 09:06:56 amIf the signal becomes more visible then the overall SNR improved.Anybody who denies that is either a troll or an idiot.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:36:06 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 23, 2022, 09:05:22 amAppeal to authority?Emperors sometimes wear no clothes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:47:27 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 10:36:06 amOh nice, now you're in denial too !

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:49:01 am
content: QuoteWhen something is not correct in the explanations, you can "correct" them in a way more friendly style then this.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:54:51 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 10:23:14 amAgain you demonstrate complete ignorance.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:57:01 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 10:36:06 amNo. This is not an ethical debate. You are incompetent to speak of electronics as demonstrated by your own responses.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:09:52 am
content: What is 'overall SNR'? How can you improve SNR? The only way to "improve SNR" is using correlation like effects, E.g. by utilizing that E[ N ]=0 while E[ S ] != 0, or even using matched filters to look for particular patterns (which can be sampled optimally with time synchronization).For signals that are too weak too measure, the SNR can still be good as it is a ratio. However, self-noise or quantization noise of the scope swamps your signal. But in that case, the only correct terminology is to say the scope destroys the SNR of very weak signals. It doesn't improve it.You can buy a better scope with better NF, less quantization noise, etc. You can use a preamp to maximize ADC range (less quantization noise). But there is still no such thing as 'improving SNR' in all these circumstances.Maybe you could say SNR is better in setup A vs B, and that's an improvement, but I got the impression that an amplifier will have a SNR gain, which is simply not possible

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:11:50 am
content: Once more, I'd ask: why the discussions on the Test Equipment section always have to drift towards personal? It's a waste of your time and won't help people reading these threads in future.Anyway, I'd like to know your opinion about the 'benchtop vs. usb' debate.Till now, I thought that it was just a matter of tastes. Some prefer having knobs and buttons and an integrated screen because they carry the instrument around a lot, and don't want the hassle of bringing their laptop with them. Some don't, and like to get the comfort of a 4K, 32" UI and generally more carefully crafted software.But then various people here say that benchtops and usbs are not equivalent in their usage possibilities.I'd like to know more about that. What can you do with one that you can't do with the other?And why good usb scopes tend to cost more than benchtop equivalents? I mean, there are no DS1000Z or 1104x-e price equivalents. Not even MSO5000 equivalents. You have to start at SDS2000X Plus equivalents.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:14:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 22, 2022, 03:54:06 pmNctnico, when I first started out on this EE journey my ability to purchase equipment, I wished for was a long way off my starting wages (lol) of 35 euro's a week back in the day when wheels were square and made of stone.The ability to make test tools and fixutres then was no where as easy as it is today or the earning potential. So you had to improvise, beg borrow or scrape together ites required to enable you to work on the projects you wish to.Soldering irons in those days made good thermal lances, so your ability to be 'deft' with them was paramount, now my JBC suite is around 100 light years improved, BUT it costs and my point is that many people staring out on this pathway will not have the funds to obtain the tools & equipment to make life easier and getting it right first time.A lot of folks reading this thread will be at a loss as to why so many of the usual suspects on the TE threads are having a pop at each other over various forum issuesI still it would be worthwhile for a beginner’s section here on the EEV blog with helps tip and hints with regard to not just equipment but materials, sources of parts and materials etc.Yes, I know there are these out there, BUT how about correlating them in a proper format for a beginners section?These days I'm very fortunate our R&D budget runs well into six figures so our choices are not so restricted, but that doesn't mean we'll drop large sums on the latest test gear. It has to be fit for purpose, run smoothly, absolutely minimal glitches, intuitive GUI and actually deliver the performance it claims, what ever the price point.So instead of us bitching about where the new R&S 12 bit is really worth the 35K price when you add on the extra's the question was is $800 to much for a hobby scope?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:33:27 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 11:11:50 amIt is not so much about what you can do but more about the UI. IMHO an oscilloscope is a device that works best with buttons and/or touchscreen. I have used a Picoscope many years ago and quickly got fed-up with needing to move the mouse around and click a whole bunch of drop-downs to change settings and so on.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:43:15 am
content: Quote from: hans on October 23, 2022, 11:09:52 amThe ADC in the MSO5000 has some amount of noise.If you preamplify the signal going into the oscilloscope using an amplifier that has less noise than the 'scopes ADC you'll be able to see more signal on screen.ie. Signal to noise ratio can improveeven if noise is added in the preamplifier.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:53:13 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 23, 2022, 11:33:27 amMh, understood.But I have used in the last few months a lot of benchtops, and among them even ones with a big screen (e.g. the SDS5000) or ones quite fast and with a very well-thought UI (Agilent).Still, I feel using the AD2 is much more comfortable. A 4K big screen is unbeatable. You just see more things. You adjust the cursors with *much* more precision. You don't have to stay half an hour with you arm always stretched and your back bent. Usb scopes are also fanless. Silent. As years pass, they don't become clogged with dust because they have no fan and are completely closed.Take these 'good' low cost scopes.. 1104, mso5k, even the 2000x+. The manufacturers could strip them of the screen, the knobs, and the cpu, and make an usb version at almost zero additional cost, selling them for 30-40% less and avoiding leaving the usb scopes market just to Pico, which is the de facto monopolyst.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 23, 2022, 11:33:27 amAnd my experience is opposite. It depends on person.EDIT: typos.. phone typing, sorry..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:09:11 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 11:43:15 amAgainst my better judgment but anyways:What is SNR ?SNR of what?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 12:07:27 pmTrue, but that's exactly the point. For some people, a USB scope is more natural & comfortable to operate and work with. Say it's a minority of all people, 20-30% just to shoot a random number.That still leaves the USB scope market underpopulated and with plenty of room to compete...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:39:38 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 12:09:11 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratioQuote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 12:09:11 pmThe SNR of a trace on an oscilloscope screen.Imagine you have an oscilloscope with 3mV of noise in its ADC. You obviously can't use it to see a 1mV signal, the signal will be completely buried in the noise.But... if I amplify the 1mV signal to 100mV before it goes into the oscilloscope then the oscilloscope's ADC noise becomes almost irrelevant. I'll be able to see the signal with no problems at all.Even if the amplifier adds 20mV of noise of its own then it'sstilla win - you'll have almost a 5:1 SNR on screen, the signal will be easily visible.

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:48:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 02:52:31 amI will be the first to agree that the 2204a is not a good choice for everyone. Mine has a 25 MHz (-3 dB) bandwidth, which could show an 8 MHz clock but it wouldn't look very square! But for me it was a better choice than doubling my budget to get a Rigol bench scope, then having no budget to buy parts for projects for a long time (and of course having to stick with my crappy soldering iron). That was the point I was trying to make.Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 02:52:31 amFor some capabilities the USB scope does indeed have poor bang-per-buck compared to bench scopes, while for other things they can be better. For example, if my budget had me looking at the FNIRSI and the like, then I would seriously consider the Multicomp Pro MP720019 US. It is a re-branded version of the Owon vds3102 usb scope (2ch, 8-bit, 100 MHz, 1 GS/s, 5 mV/div, 10 MSample memory) that Newark has been selling for $167 delivered for at least a handful of months. Yes, the software is bare-bones, but compared to the FNIRSI it has far better sensitivity, sample rate, memory depth, and bandwidth. I am especially wary (possibly unfairly so) about the FNIRSI after watching the TechCornerTvElectronics youtube video that compares it to a Hantek and an Owon. The voltage measurements were so far off at times that I am not convinced it is even a usable instrument; hopefully new firmware has fixed that. Or, if I really wanted a benchtop scope, would probably look at Owons or re-branded Owons (Hanmatek, Kiprim). As far as I know these are actual 100 MHz, 1 GS/s scopes. I have seen the Kiprim for $152-189 on amazon, and I would add $22 for the Amazon 3-year warranty that includes free shipping. The Hanmatek is much better known and sells for $189-$199. The FNIRSI is $184 right now.But sure, you can take the FNIRSI wherever you want and get some measurements without a computer. The need for a computer for a USB scope will be a dealbreaker for some people and applications. No argument here. For me it is a feature - my eyes are not so great so having a large screen is wonderful.In any case, my point was that my particular case is an example of what 2N3055 was discussing in more general terms in his post.And the real reason I mostly considered usb for my upgraded scope is that I am very sensitive to noise (wear earplugs on planes, rake my yard the slow manual way instead of use my leafblower, etc.) and the affordable 4-channel deep-memory scopes all have fans that I would most likely hate. If I ever need 4 channels for digital stuff I will probably get a logic analyzer, and use my scope to check signal integrity 2-channels at a time. But I can cross that bridge when it happens.Cheers!jason

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 12:49:02 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 12:28:20 pmThey don't seem to be "competing" very well with bench 'scopes in terms of bandwidth/number of channels per $$$ though.They have a lot less hardware inside them (no screen, no application processor, no internal file system, no networking, no USB stick connector, no HDMI output, no knobs, much simpler case/chassis) so what's the excuse?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 12:49:02 pmThis was also explained numerous times: hardware BOM is minor part of development cost. Picoscope software has some features that you need to pay 5 digits to get otherwise..Also since last time I wrote about this Pico added 3 new protocol decodes.. For free.Actually, since I bought my PS3406D MSO few years ago it gained 6-7 protocol decodes, Deep measure etc...I bought fully loaded Keysight MSOX3104T with full bundle. They added 1 new protocol after. And I have to buy it at retail price now.Like it was said if you only need basic CRT replacement, you just buy cheapest scope that works and you're golden.Using phrase price/performance implies performing a function i.e. usage of features. If features are never used than you don't need them.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:31:56 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 01:20:56 pmYou could just take the standard benchtop scope UI and transfer it as it is. It's what they do with LAN/browser access or, in the case of the MSO5K, providing hdmi output and mouse operability.I mean, it's not that if you make a benchtop scope you are free from the obligation of writing the software.

author: trampas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:32:22 pm
content: I worked my way through college as an auto mechanic. I use to get asked if someone should buy snap on tools or harbor freight. I came to realize that this was not a question about the tools.The reality is that the person did not know what they were looking for in the tool. They had no clue what was a good tool or a bad one. I personally did this once. I brought a fluke multimeter for $5 at a yard sale. Did not think much of it, never heard of fluke. I saved up money and brought a protech multimeter for like $300 and gave away my fluke. I cursed so much the protech was junk, slow response, etc. Yes it measured voltage and such but was not the fluke. I had a great multimeter(tool) before I knew what a good multimeter(tool) was, as such I could not appreciate it.So when people ask me about the tools, I tell them that if they do not know what they want in the tool, buy the cheap tool and use it to figure out what you want/need in a tool. The money for the cheap tool is money spent on the education. When you look at this way a cheap scope is a great education.I personally have many scopes purchased over the years and each one gave me a good education. The MSO5074 I got in August was/is a great education in that I need to look at noise specs and bit depth on my next scope. Yes the scope is functional, yes I can work around both problems. It will not be the last scope I buy, heck might buy new one before end of the year. That is $800 taught me what to look for in my next scope and was worth every penny. So now I can sell used and buy better reducing the cost of my education.Buying the perfect scope is not possible, just like buying a quality tool from Harbor Freight. However you might be able to get something done with the tool, and learn what you want in your next tool, which is really all we can ask for with anything we buy.So when you need a scope, buy the best your budget will allow if you are going to use it more than once. If you are not sure you will use more than once, buy the cheapest to get the job done. If you know you need 16bit and world class noise floor, then the cheap scope is not what you need. If you don't know what bit depth, sampling rate, bandwidth, noise floor are then a cheap scope is what you need for the education.Buy the tool to solve the problem today, expense it to that problem. Then keep using the tool to solve future problems until you need a better tool to solve the problem at hand. This is the way it has been and will always be in engineering. If you over think your tool purchase you will stall progress waiting on the perfect tool that will never exist. If you are not buying new tools you are not pushing the boundaries of technology or knowledge and you will be bored. It is just a tool, if you are lucky it will not be your last one.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 12:39:38 pmI know Wikipedia has an article. I wasn't asking for myself. I asked if you read on the topic and understood it..Little hint:Amplifying a signal to bring it into range of instrument input is veritable practice and used all the time.And providing a signal has limited dynamic range itself AND that signal itself has good SNR, you can use preamp with very good results.Meaning, you can measure 100uV 1kHz sinusoidal signal with stable amplitude that has no additional nose from environment and has very low intrinsic noise (good luck with that tough). Then you use very low noise preamp (that is BW limited to achieve needed gain with little noise) and amplify it. In which case if everything is ideal (and at 100uV level nothing is ideal) you will get good representation on screen. Problem is that this presume good knowledge of what we are looking at. A customized preamp with tailored input impedance too.True is that we use scope to investigate signals to gain this understanding. If scope shows nothing in the grass how do we know what are we looking for? What happens when we want to look at detail at 200uV level on a signal that has 20mV peaks in it? Can we use preamp then? No, because of overdrive. That is why I said preamp use is possible (and I already wrote about this it but was ignored) for some specific uses. But it is not a replacement/fix for noisy scope. It is more a specific scenario, in which lower noise scope would still have same advantage...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 01:31:56 pmYou really didn't understand? They have to write the software. It is more advanced than software on those embedded scopes. What do you mean transfer? Steal from somebody? You think few menus are the extent of scope software? All the effort is in the background you don't see, signal analysis, measurements, 25+ decodes.... There is also an API that works really well.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 01:40:56 pmTo answer your first question, no, I'm not understanding.I'm not talking about just the UI ("a few menus"). I am talking about the rest of it also ("signal analysis, measurements, 25+ decodes...").They already did that, didn't they? Yes, otherwise that benchtop scope wouldn't work. Maybe you are talking aboutportingall of that on x86?I don't think it would be so overwhelmingly onerous to port the software they already have written on other archs, but suppose it is.Would you tell me what would be the problem for (as a random example) Siglent to take the 1104x-e, remove the screen and the knobs, enclose it in a smaller shell,leave all the rest untouched, without writing even a single line of new codeand say:"It's identical to the benchtop model. Just access it via LAN/web or via usb with EasyScopeX".I really hope I managed to make myself clear this time.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 01:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 01:52:08 pmWho is "them"? Every manufacturer has to do it for themselves from the scratch. Picotech does not make desktop scopes, only USB ones. And desktop embedded scope hardware and software has different architecture to an USB one.. You can't port it like that.There is porting being done, in a limited fashion, where ARM embedded scope is ported to x86 or vice versa. Then it is basically same architecture but different application processor.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:00:08 pm
content: To discuss the topic further, and if one wants to remove the general purpose process from the scope (and not only the screen and the knobs), if I'm not misunderstanding you, the problem in your opinion would be porting the software from the scope to the computer.That is, you are arguing that transferring signal analysis, deconding, etc etc, to the computer would be too much effort. That is, porting from ARM to x86 (here I'm supposing that the scope has a general purpose arm processor like the one you find in your phone). Now I'm not an expert of that but I think that the difficulties in writing DSP software for scopes lies in the algorithms. Porting these algos to another arch would be just a matter of patience, UNLESS they have been written super low level in some kind of assembly language, which I doubt.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:05:45 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 01:57:13 pmYou seem to have ingnored my example. The whole point of that example was to say they *already* have all it requires. The have web access. They have usb-operating software.Porting on x86 and removing the general purpose CPU from the scope is another thing... I discussed it on my follow-up post, butif they want to make such a product *today* by leaving the CPU on the scope, they already have what's needed.Who are they? Everyone, from siglent and rigol up to tektronix. All of them have web access and usb-operation software.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 02:00:08 pmNO not that. USB scope has different layout/philosophy/architecture to an embedded one. Parts are combined differently, different things happen at different places. Different type of product. Like I said, If you take a destktop scope, you can use one based on ARM and redesign that motherboard part to use x86 (gross oversimplification , but conceptually speaking) and then you could recompile/ port C code for general processor and do that with some normal effort, and even achieve code sharing long term with propper practice.But you cannot port to USB scope architecture and back like that.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 02:05:45 pmHeadless scopes already exist for testing purposes.What is USB operation software? what do you mean by that?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 02:09:37 pmOk,I didn't know that stuff, thanks for pointing it out. I learned something new.But allow me to say that I now have a clearer idea about why all the discussions have to drift to conflict in this outfit.You are inherently aggressive, as it's customary with balcanic people. Don't take me wrong, probably you aren't even aware of that. You are knowledgeable and you want to provide good advice.But nonetheless you behave aggressively. Some people (Fungus, Nico, etc...) are disturbed by that, and feel obliged to rebuke. An so the conversation enters in a spiral of stones threw at each other unitil exhaustion.Please reflect upon that. You can't address people like they are a bunch of idiots. Sometimes one just doesn't know some things (otherwise he wouldn't come here asking stuff...).

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:38:58 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 02:12:46 pmEasyScopeX in the case of Siglent.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:47:42 pm
content: Even my Owon 167 eur 40 Mhz scopemeter can be usb-operated.. All the functions are available on the PC.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:50:57 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 02:38:18 pmHonestly....

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 02:50:57 pm??You mean it's not that? It's that, at least in part.

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:56:39 pm
content: I apologize for derailing this thread into usb scope debates. I was attempting to provide an example to illustrate the more general point made by 2n3055: universal “minimum” or “overkill” thresholds do not make sense given the diversity of readers on these forums. In my case the commonly accepted minimum scope would have been overkill, and I was better served by a usb scope that cost 1/3 as much. But for the OP it seems like the MSO5000 is not overkill.Cheers!Jason

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 23, 2022, 11:14:42 amAnother thing to consider is how much you spend at one time. The little amounts can add up. I have several k euro worth of swim and cycling gear. Except for the bicycle none are really big ticket items. So $800 may look like much for a one-time purchase but it likely isn't much to spend on a hobby. I know I keep repeating myself ad nauseam but aren't we all working to make money to spend on fun things to do

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 02:59:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 23, 2022, 02:57:55 pmAbsolutely true.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:01:13 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 02:47:42 pmThat is a good point. Nowadays many benchtop oscilloscopes have good web interfaces which allows them to be used remotely (even from the other side of the world through a VPN tunnel).

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:08:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 23, 2022, 03:01:13 pmNot only lan/web access. I mean, web access is a very useful thing to have (like you said, you can access the scope over the internet), but very low end scopes don't have a lan port.Nonetheless, you can operate them with a computer and a cable using a software that connects to the scope just via usb. Even the nefarious Hantek I owned previously had it (but lacked the lan port).In the case of the 1104xe, it has both the web operability and the usb operability (I believe the MSO5K, other than these two methods, can also be operated like a desktop computer, via mouse and hdmi video output, which is a nice addition).

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 03:46:01 pm
content: There was I thinking that having an afternoon cup of tea while using my picoscope to look at an interesting side aspect of improving the rail noise on a d2A converter for my brother. Wow didn't realise that offering a point of view on is 800usd to much for a beginners test scope could start a second rate university debating team's discourse over European fragile political eco-social landscape overtones how fickle is me?Humm... think yourselves lucky, look at the shower of shite we having running our country (or not as the case maybe lol)Do I think usb scopes have a place? yes I do, use what you feel comfortable with touch screen Web interface, Maui studio remote working etc.This is an electronics forum chaps play fair

author: trampas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:01:22 pm
content: One feature I want in Oscope is hands free operation. I have thought about doing this with some Python and MSO5000.By hands free I mean I want to use voice commands like "Single Shot", "Hold", "Autoset", "Zoom in", "Zoom out", "Reset Trigger", etc. Wording and functionality might change but I think you get the idea.There is nothing worse than probing something using microscope and trying to stop scope, autoset scope. The worse is when scope probe slips as you try to one handed hold the probe and ground and blow up a chip.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: trampas on October 23, 2022, 04:01:22 pmAgilent made that many years ago.. didn't take.Just recently someone made a separate voice to SCPI translator with external SBC. Sorry don't have a link ready but quick search will find it, I'm sure..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:34:17 pm
content: Is it time to lock this one?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 04:57:27 pm
content: Quote from: trampas on October 23, 2022, 04:01:22 pmIt's a good idea, I think it's doable with any scope that supports SCPI (and python is OK for translating voice into SCPI commands).

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 05:27:20 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 23, 2022, 04:34:17 pmThat may be a good idea, but note, moderator, that virtually *all* the threads in the test equipment section start normally but soon become a fight between the usual people (with one side starting such fights a lot more often, as you may observe). The OPs generally flee away, not to be seen ever again.Other than that, it seems it's forbidden to say "I'd buy this rather that this other brand, because I like/don't like...". You immediately get censored and accused of being an idiot.Finally, I steered the tail of this very thread toward politics, and for that I apologize. But only after reading pages and pages of useless fight.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 05:30:08 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 20, 2022, 09:35:44 am@WaveyDipole - About a preamplifier, I found that a good one (linear from 10 Hz to 500 MHz for ex.) is expensive and not justifiable for this scope. A 5$ one can be found working from few MHz low limit, so you will miss audio range. I have tested one labeled as working from 30 MHz to 4 GHz. See attached photos.The setup was : AWG 2ch - Sinus 8 MHz 2mVpp and scope Ch1 - signal from AWG through cheap amp., and Ch2 direct signal from AWG .Photo 1 - normal aquisitionPhoto 2 - aquisition with max memory (100 MB for two channels)Photo 3 - aquisition using average modePhoto 4 - signals without preamp

author: Hexley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 05:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 04:57:27 pmA good implementation of this idea was made with speaker-independent voice recognition software on a Raspberry Pi. The following link gives an overview -- note that Jim made a number of improvements to improve speed and extend the command set over what is shown in the first video.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-voice-control-for-keysight-1000-x-scopes/I have used this for a couple of years with various HPAK scopes and it is absolutely great for invoking "Single", changing trigger modes, setting probe attenuation, etc.The package supports the MSO5000, so I guess it is appropriate for this thread.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 06:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: Hexley on October 23, 2022, 05:50:33 pmThanks for the link, it will come useful. I'd try and put it to use it as well. You know, if you use a Jetson and neural network based voice recognition, the NN will learn and recognize your voice better and better.. Would be worth a try..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 06:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 23, 2022, 05:30:08 pmYeah, a full-range amplifier is going to be expensive. You'll probably need two for low/high frequency ranges.Quote from: skander36 on October 23, 2022, 05:30:08 pmFor DC-to-audio range you can probably do it with a $5 opamp.(...maybe even from DC up to the 20Mhz bandwidth limiter)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 06:15:02 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 23, 2022, 05:30:08 pmAwesome! Thanks for posting that!PS: Can you name the amplifier?

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 06:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 06:15:02 pmIt is a cheap one from Aliexpress :https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000723079878.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.11751802Z5bnPMIt contain SBB-5089Z. I'm using it a a preamp for a portable spectrum analyzer (also from Aliexpress) but without notable results.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 06:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2022, 06:11:43 pmJust make sure that amplifier has input impedance, amplification and range that is fit for purpose.That is why scope input is special:BW from DC - 500MHzsensitivity 500uV/div to 10V/divInput impedance 1MΩ/50ΩAll in one.You might need more than one or two preamps.. Or as you correctly noted on that one made just for that purpose and that is going to be expensive..

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:20:57 pm
content: Thanks 2N3055 !Yes I made this test just to show how a cheap amp can behave. Of course there are many things that can be improved, by taking account of what you are listed.For me the scope itself is a very good one, best in it's class price, as many said here.It definitely worth buying, if the op does not consider investing in SDS2104X or RTB2K.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 07:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 23, 2022, 07:20:57 pmYes I agree that is the case.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:43:23 pm
content: Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:50:50 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 23, 2022, 06:45:33 pmBut the noise figure isn't stellar. This one has a much better noise performance (0.6dB):https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005001437872322.htmlI actually tried to find a more low noise MMIC to replace the existing MMIC but I couldn't find a suitable one.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 08:43:23 pmWell....Here one of the last pics of my MSO5074..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 08:43:23 pmIt is..That was my point all the time..

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 08:59:22 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 08:43:23 pmIndeed. Actualy the signal is about 2 mVpp but because of the noise anvelope added, scope don't mesure it corectly.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 23, 2022, 08:53:01 pmQuote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 08:55:23 pmThat's not acceptable. Maybe the 20M bandwidth limitation is not active. Here is a screenshot of my Owon 1022i capturing a signal of comparable amplitude (if I set less than 4 mVpp the crappy UNI-T awg outputs wildly distorted stuff). Note that I'm NOT averaging anything. It's a 100$ scope.I don't have the AD2 at hand right now, I left it in the car. Will test tomorrow...

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 23, 2022, 08:59:22 pmIs the BW limitation engaged??

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:14:42 pm
content: Also, may I see the FFT of that noise plagued 2mVpp signal?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:18:14 pm
content: And as a point of reference here is the signal on SDS2354X HD.Before you guys attack me I know it is not a fair fight. It is expensive 12 bit scope.I'm just showing that i can easily achieve those figures without any preamps with just scope inputs while retaining full calibration and accuracy of AC/DC measurements. With a flick of a input attenuator knob.20 MHz BW limit is on, no need for 500MHz BW in this case.No ERES.This is not comparison. I don't expect MSO5000 to be that good (new HDO1000/4000 might be close though).This is demonstration for those who don't know what is and what isn't feasible and what is realistic. My 16 bit Picoscope is even better but that is not a general purpose scope.Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS2104X+ and Micsig STO1104C are not as good as this, but much closer to this than to MSO5000. There are many other that are probably also OK but those I know for sure.But if you are not working on low level audio, sensor technique and mostly spend life over 100 mV, MSO5000 is killer scope for the price...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:19:26 pm
content: QuoteNo, otherwise a "B" will be shown in the channel info box.My pic, the signal is bandwithlimited but also "blurred".

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 09:18:14 pmIf you have these instruments at hand (or at work), please post the same 2 mVpp signal.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:22:18 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 09:18:14 pmSigning this.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:23:34 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 23, 2022, 09:19:26 pmI think it's not acceptable to get such results. Ok, maybe you live above 100 mV, but you may need to get under that every now and then, for a variety of reasons..It's not a 200$ instrument. It's a 1 grand instrument. Ok, the bundle, the bandwidth, the sampling rate and the memory depth.. But how could they put such a bad front end on it? They spoiled their product.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:27:27 pm
content: I tried to make ripple measurement without success or with many tricks to get a plausible signal.Then asking rigol support what about the much more expensive 7000 series, did they got lower noise frontends ?The answer from the support was a killer for me.Frontend is the same...Look at Daves video from the 5000 as it came up.He said "you won´t use this for low level measurements".

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 23, 2022, 09:27:27 pm

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:35:46 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:20:43 pmI don't have SDS1104X-E or SDS2104X+ here. Many others do though. My Micisg is not here so, no, I cannot.But all this was already measured many times and posted many times. It is proven fact. It is only this one guy that keeps repeating it is good enough for everybody and that preamp solves everything. And that it is me who invented all this and noise is not the issue. It actually doesn't exist and we are all shills inventing it...And another point of reference and I will stop then. These specs are reason why our friend Martin72 shelled out serious money for SDS2000X HD:1.63 mvP-P (520 uV RMS) 10 kHz sinewave, at200uV/divin zoom mode. Eres 2.0 enabled (still some 110MHz BW, not max ERES)

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:46:02 pm
content: At work we got SDS2104X+, 1104X-E and rigol ds1054Z and of course lecroy scopes.When it´s interesting I can compare them on 2mVpp in the next week.QuoteExactly, don´t need it now but in middle close future it will be important.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 23, 2022, 09:46:02 pmYes please. If you have A-brand scopes please test them on the same signal too.Thanks!

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:14:42 pmAlready the FFT of the noise floor alone at 2mV/div were interesting.Is it almost flat up to 4GHz, or is a clear downwards step at the max. BW of the frontend (500MHz?) visible?I also wonder how 2mV/div is realized on this scope. Is it a regular analog gain stage in front of the ADC, or does it possible utilize some kind of "digital gain" of the ADC?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 09:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: gf on October 23, 2022, 09:54:50 pmD.S:Note: 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div are a magnification of 4 mV/div setting. For vertical accuracy calculations, use full scale of 32 mV for 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div sensitivity settingThat is also a part of the problem on these ranges

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:08:40 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:47:14 pmI think, a HDO6034A(12 bit, 10GSa/s) and a WR9054(8 bit, 20GSa/s) are A-brand enough...We only payed 26000€ for both(-42% off)...

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 23, 2022, 10:08:40 pmAre they built by Siglent?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:15:49 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:47:14 pmIt was a joke, by the way.(before I get eaten alive...)

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:23:15 pm
content: Nahh you won´t...True facts are, the Wavesurfer 3000Z and the Wavesurfer 4000HD series from lecroy are made by siglent.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:50:15 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 10:15:13 pmIt would not surprise me. Siglent is very good at hardware design and as Martin72 wrote, Siglent is the OEM for several Lecroy scopes. What I've seen from the Lecroy equipment I own and have owned, Lecroy's hardware design skills aren't that good.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 10:57:36 pm
content: Don´t know where lecroy come from, but the 9300/9400 series are made in switzerland.The Wavesurfer/Waverunner in the 2000´s are made by Iwatsu/Japan.WavePro/WaveMaster at that time I don´t know...HDO/WR actually made/assembled in USA.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:11:53 pmNo, look at the ch3 box whereas in the shot from Martin he has the 20 MHz BW limit engaged signified by the B in the channel box.This is the thing with a DSO, especially when users have limited experience with them but more with a CRO where looking at the front panel indicates what settings are made/engaged which is next to useless when sharing display pics online where instead a DSO has so so so much more info on the display plus astute selection of appropriate menus shows more again.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:11:53 pmNo it isn't.Attached are some screenshots from Rigol 5K and other scopes with the same signal but with BW limit 20MHz active.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:17:57 pm
content: The 10bit R&S, no wonder, "wins"...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:22:56 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 23, 2022, 11:17:57 pmSDS2000X Plus in 10 bit mode can challenge it and at much less cost.....remember you had one of those.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2022, 11:31:18 pm
content: Yepp, but this was not part of the "challenge" he posted..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:49:16 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 08:43:23 pmBecause that's what noise looks like in real life.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 09:35:46 pmComplete bollocks.All I ever said was that amplifiers exist (proven) and that "in a pinch" there's settings and things you can fiddle with to see the signal. This is also a proven fact.eg. Here's the signal with averaging on (of course it's not perfect, but youcansee it):If it's not a repetitive signal then there's hires mode, heatmap mode, etc.There's a forum member "tggzzz" with an applicable sig:Glider pilot's aphorism:"there is no substitute for span".Retort:"There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:05:13 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:23:34 pmActually a $800 instrument, but who's counting.Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:23:34 pmAnd the AWG.Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:23:34 pmShort version: It was their first attempt at an ASIC and they messed up.(They're back now though, with a new ASIC and a new OS).Quote from: balnazzar on October 23, 2022, 09:23:34 pmIf it's only "every now and then" you can fiddle with the settings a bit and squint your eyes.Or ... get a $5 amplifier.Or ... use your skill and imagination.The real question is:What do you get in exchangefor having to do that "every now and again"? A nice soldering iron, a power supply, a hot air gun, a thermal camera, some decent cutters, screwdrivers, etc. Stuff that makes life better and that you're going to use "all day long".That'smypoint.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:35:22 am
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 23, 2022, 11:10:40 pmIf we're having a request day: What does the MSO5000 look like with that signal and various hires mode settings?We can end several debates in a single thread.Quote from: Simon on October 23, 2022, 04:34:17 pmTurns out this is one of the most productive threads in a long time.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 09:43:11 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2022, 01:35:22 amYes, I'd like to see the same signal with the HR mode enabled on the 5K, and yes, this thread is proving itself to be quite informative.Tell me one thing, folks.Why the signal on the Keysight appears so sh*ty?? It's no better than Rigol's.And while the R&S wins easily (10 bit), the Micsig fares pretty good..

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 09:47:32 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 23, 2022, 11:22:56 pmThat's why I explicitly requested the same signal captured with the 2x+

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 09:58:06 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 09:47:32 amSorry sold out or otherwise I would oblige.Only the X-E like yours and a SDS6000A in stock until more arrives.BTW, do you want a proper chat about SDS5kX, I have some comments that might be of interest. Email me.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:22:47 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2022, 01:35:22 amWell, Hires mode does not help too much at this level of signals. Neither RTB2k don't do any better. I'm sure that there is an engineering or mathematical explanation but I can't provide it.The best method I use is to do single capture rather than observe the single in real time. In this way i get a clear signal.Another methods for 5K are HiMem, Average, and Color Grading.Also for me there are very rare ocasions when I deal with so low level signals. Even in audio ... But I am just a hobbyist.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:25:22 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2022, 09:58:06 amI will, as soon as I know more about the fate of that scope. I'll go to the lab on wednesday. But you know, it's not my scope, and it's outside of the price range I can personally afford. But I'll ask.As for the 2x+, I think Martin has it, and will test with that signal.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:29:43 am
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 24, 2022, 10:22:47 amIt seems to me that HR did close to nothing in terms of noise mitigation. TBH it did nothing even on the RTB2k (which however provided a very good signal to start with).Averaging it did, but averages are a no-go for non-repetitive signals.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:31:36 am
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 24, 2022, 10:22:47 amI think it should do more than that.You have to turn it onandset the number of oversamples (8x, 16x, 32x, etc). If it's only set to 2x then I wouldn't expect much reduction in noise.(I can't see the number of samples in the screenshot so I'm not sure what it's doing exactly, that's why I'm saying this...)

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:35:21 am
content: I honestly think HR on scopes is overrated.. How many times you have to observe a perfectly repetitive signal upon which to oversample?Many times you don't have a precise idea about what you are going to observe, and turning HR on could mask the real stuff you want to see...

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:42:52 am
content: Hi Fungus!Rigol 5k does not have this setting. Also the others scopes RTB2k, Keysight 2k or Micsig.It is not like Siglent. I had Siglent 1202X-E and I remember.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:48:20 am
content: Quote from: PeDre on October 24, 2022, 10:37:42 amIt is possible. I did not realized the difference. Any advice about setup?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:52:35 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 10:35:21 amHiRes (ERES) is not same as Averaging mode...

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 10:58:23 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2022, 10:52:35 amAFAIK the HR modes are more or less implemented as follows (but please correct me if I'm wrong):Pre-Filter --> Over-Sample --> Average --> Data-Thinning --> Filter

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:02:21 am
content: That's to say, it's more or less a way to perform averaging in a more sophisticated and less simplistic way.Bottom line, HR modes are not going to be real substitute for proper high bit count FE/ADCs.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:05:39 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 10:25:22 amHad, now has SDS2104X HD, cough cough now SDS2504X HD !

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:08:15 am
content: Quote from: PeDre on October 24, 2022, 10:56:13 amThanks! That work.That means you can't use it to measure high frequency signals. I can't even trigger for single capture at this signal level combined with 100us timebase.LE - After some fine tunning on trigger I was able to do a single capture.Rigol 5K HiRes does not have this limit.Robert

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:12:23 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 10:58:23 amNot really.That doesn't explain what is being processed and how.In scope parlance Averaging is averaging same data points from different trigger events. Good only for repetitive signals. It does not lowpass filter signal.Hires is a running average lowpass filter. It trading temporal resolution for amplitude one.ERES is alternative implementation of lowpass filter with better impulse response..There is no "data thinning"(we call it decimation) as a separate step anywhere, nor Pre-filter ..There is also no oversampling but we simply sample as a scope normally would and than apply transformation.On some scopes (LeCroy, some Siglent) ERES is available as a math function, so you retain original data and can apply it after the fact.Search internet for ERES whitepapers by Lecroy. They explain it better than I ever could.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:15:24 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 11:02:21 amFirst sentence no, we cannot say that. See my other response.Bold sentence absolutely correct, HiRes or ERES are no substitute for low noise, high resolution front end.BUT they are VERY useful supplementary tool to use when signal observed permits it and calls for it.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:21:39 am
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 24, 2022, 11:08:15 amThanks for all these tests you are making. Also, that seems to be quite an effective HR implementation, although I don't like that horizontal limitation.Would you please feed a truly arbitrary waveform of your choice to the scope and see how its HR mode fares with it? Thanks!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:23:28 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 10:35:21 amYou're thinking about "averaging". Hires is different.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:23:46 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2022, 11:12:23 amThanks for the detailed explanation. I didn't know that stuff.But the fact that it's a running avg doesn't cause the HR-processed signal to be kind of 'late' with respect to the real signal? (I'm talking about HiRes, not Siglent ERES)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:27:54 am
content: Quote from: skander36 on October 24, 2022, 11:08:15 amRobert,see my previous response.But shortly, Hires and ERES are lowpass filters by definition. So when you enable them you, by definition loose higher frequencies.How much depends on sampling rate and length of convolution kernel in a filter. Some scopes specify improvement in virtual bits of resolution improvements. Some don't let you choose "how much" hires you get..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:29:34 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 11:23:46 amLate according to what reference frame?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:50:08 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 11:23:46 amWell Siglent do both in the DSO range.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:01:45 pm
content: Ok, with the Siggy 1104x-e, BW limitation always enabled.These are 3 groups of 3 measurements. From top to bottom:The groups are:1. Sine2. Staircase3. Arbitrary EEGEach groups is:1. No ERES2. ERES +0.5 bits3. ERES +3 bits (maximum)

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2022, 11:27:54 amAnd indeed my measurements prove that. No staircase at 3 bits ERES.Very different EEG at 3 bits.At least the Siggy lets you select the whole range 0.5,1,2,3 bits.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2022, 11:29:34 amThe real signal's one.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:08:01 pm
content: I'd appreciate a lot if you could make the same measurements with your instruments, when and if you have time to waste.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:51:42 pm
content: Quote from: PeDre on October 24, 2022, 11:53:21 amThis is 10 Khz. My tests was about 8 MHz. But now I have succeed to single capture also at this freq.Thanx!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 12:04:48 pmPut your thinking hat on.A question: what does scope care about that?Scope has one reference frame: a trigger point.Signal you see on a screen is delayed 10s of ms before you see it.Scope can (and does) correct any timing of any transformation before it shows it on a screen..So any filter, ERES or whatever will be shown in proper place in time.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 12:58:53 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2022, 12:56:24 pmTrue. I was forgetting that.

author: trp806mo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:08:52 pm
content: SDS2104X in 10 bit BW20 MHz, one screenshot is "in live", the other in oneshot

author: trp806mo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:13:19 pm
content: same but in 8 Bits "live" & single

author: trp806mo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:19:13 pm
content: and my old TDS3034 (1mV is the lowest sensibility)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:24:08 pm
content: Is this piece of string too long for a hobbyist?

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 01:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: trp806mo on October 24, 2022, 01:19:13 pmFor the TDS3000, try also taking a single shot capture to disable its 'analog persistence', which affects how noise is displayed.I find square waves an easier way to visually gauge noise.

author: trp806mo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 03:48:15 pm
content: TDS in single shot

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 23, 2022, 09:46:02 pmTested on following scopes:Rigol DS1054ZSiglent SDS1104X-ESiglent SDS2104X+Lecroy Waversurfer 3024Z (Waverunner 9054 is on external cal.)Lecroy HDO6034ASource rigol awg, amplitude 2mVpp, Frequency 8MhzSettings on scopes : 1mV/Div., 50ns/Div, BWL 20Mhz, memory default/autoSDS2104X+ 8bit and 10bit mode.Pics attached...

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:11:00 pm
content: Thanks for doing those tests! The Lecroy Waversurfer and possibly the SDS1104X appear to have analog persistence enabled. Can you take screenshots with that disabled?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 06:36:26 pm
content: Can check this tomorrow.Did it quick in a break, because it´s for private joy..

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:44:12 pm
content: If possible, try and set something different than a pure sine (more or less like what I did on the previous page) so you can see how the high resolution modes will kind of flatten the true signal.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 08:51:40 pm
content: Hi,I didn´t use any hi-res modes of the scopes*, the pics showing the "raw" behaviour.But I can play a little bit around with it, when it´s interesting for others.*) the 10 bit mode of the SDS2k+ is somekind special with it´s bandwithlimitation of appx 100Mhz.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 09:44:51 pm
content: Results with my AD2. Tried with its own awg and with the UNI-T awg I used to generate the screenshots with the 1104x-e. Pure sine waves. The results were identical.TL;DR is that the AD2 seems to be incapable of managing signals <~20mVpp. I'd like you to tell me why. It's the too shallow memory? The sampling rate? The FE/ADC is 14 bit...Note that the FFT still spots the frequency at 2mVpp quite clearly, no matter the signal being unrecognizable.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:08:55 pm
content: Hello,The Analog Discovery has only 2 sensitivity levels. Everything else is done using digital zoom. If I remember correctly, only the settings 500 mV/div and 5 V/div have the best resolutionBest Regardsegonotto

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2022, 11:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on October 24, 2022, 11:08:55 pmThat's not a good thing. Even the Owon vds1022i does much better at a few microvolts, no matter being 4X cheaper.500 mV are *a lot*.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 12:42:06 am
content: Hello,1 LSB is approximately 0.5 mV. If you add the noise, it is not surprising that the Analog Discovery performs poorly at 20 mV/div and below.Best Regardsegonotto

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:03:07 am
content: Quote from: egonotto on October 25, 2022, 12:42:06 amBut look at that.. It's a staircase wave at TWO Vpp. It souldn't have problems with it, right?Wrong, the staircase is not even distinguishable.The Siglent had shown it clearly at two *milli*Volt pkpk...That's not acceptable, I'm considering returning this little sh*t.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:04:24 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 11:54:33 pmThe AD2 has a maximum absolute resolution of 320µV when below 500mV/ but the accuracy is +-10mV +-0.5% so it's definitely not great for super low level signals, but the 1022i also isn't great, and definitely not for microvolts. It has trouble with a 2mVpp signal, it can't trigger properly, and at 2mvpp you're already looking at a signal less than 1 division tall, but yeah, for low signal levels, the 1022i is better than the AD2

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:17:26 am
content: Owon vds1022i. The staircase is clearly recognizable.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:19:38 am
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on October 25, 2022, 01:04:24 amThe staircase wave I threw at the AD2 is two Vpp.Not mVpp. It's not a low signal level.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:21:54 am
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on October 25, 2022, 01:04:24 amIn your case the teeth are much more evident.. Did you do something exotic to set the scope? Thanks.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:22:50 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 01:19:38 amoh, that was not about the staircase but about this:Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 09:44:51 pm

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:28:19 am
content: This is quite strange, trying to post this, it tells me it has already been posted, and that changed the image of my previous reply, so posting with this text to see if that changed?:Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 01:03:07 amHow many steps does your staircase have? and what frequency? Here's what mine looks like with 9 steps and at 3.472MHz, really bad, but not as bad as in your screenshot o.o

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:30:52 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 01:21:54 amnope, all the settings are on the screenshot, i replicated the settings from yours, and used a 9 step staircase

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:40:49 am
content: 7 steps rising, 7 falling, 4 MHz.Mh.. Try to set a trapezoidal wave on your AD2, even at the voltages more congenial to the device. Say 500 mV or 5 V.Can you confirm that already at 2 MHz the wave is heavily distorted and at 5 MHz it's no longer distinguishable as a trapezoidal? Same at low frequencies, e.g. 100 Hz.And that no matter the voltage.Did the same with an external awg. Same results. It's the scope.I'm starting wondering what exactly I can observe with it.Not low level signals, OK. But not even high level ones, it seems.In any case, thanks for the experiments you are performing

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 02:31:51 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 01:40:49 amThe fastest I can get it to go is 2.6MHz because of the arb sampling rate, but this is how it looks like. If you look at the FFT there is a lot of content past the bandwidth of the AD2 scope, so it will smooth out at higher frequencies. Here's also what the trapezium waveform from the AD2 generator looks like on the AD2, but that's also because the generator is very limited in bandwidth. It looks smoothed, but it also doesn't look great on a bench scopeEdit: was able to set the stairs up for 4MHz, added a picture of that

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 03:45:05 am
content: Hello,the Analog Discovery has about 15 ns rise time.At 0.5 MHz you can still see the stages well. Not anymore at 2.5 MHz. For comparison with another better generator. The limit is set by the scope but also by the generator of Analog Discovery.A stage then takes only about 28 ns. This corresponds to a rectangle of almost 20 MHz. You can't be angry with Analog Discovery for not being able to do that.Best Regardsegonotto

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 06:43:33 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2022, 12:49:16 amAgree. Your posts are mostly that... Which is a shame really, because you seem to be intelligent person that could do so much better than that.Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2022, 12:49:16 amAnd in this case his sig means: you can try to twiddle and invent all kind of tricks, but you can simply buy a scope that works well in a first place.Did you ever show any of people that asked you any ofyourmeasurements and setups with all the scopes and amplifiers you recommend ?

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:47:51 am
content: Thanks folks for having tested & provided feedback about the AD2.It's a bit more lmited that I thought.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 01:44:11 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2022, 12:56:24 pmNot necessarily. The only thing that is fixed is that the signals are sampled using the oscilloscope's clock source (unless using alternate triggering mode). So you can relate signals to eachother within the accuracy limitations of the clock source. Remember that many oscilloscopes have untriggered roll mode as well.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 02:13:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 25, 2022, 01:44:11 pmI will repeat once again. Scopes time frame of reference is the trigger point. I mean, in internal math of the scope it is literally origin of coordinate system. At least on scopes I know about.You can correlate signals in relation to internal timing resolution that is orders of magnitude more granular than sampling rate.Roll mode is a special mode.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 02:30:16 pm
content: The question of what is overkill is surely highly application dependent. Whether a particular scope type is overkill will depend on by how much its performance and features exceed those you need for the things you actually do, or plan to do.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 04:01:42 pm
content: Wow, didn't realise that many pages had been added since I last looked in!Thank you for all the comments regarding amplifiers. I have learned a lot from the discussion. I can see how an amplifier might help to visualise the signal, but that is different to measurement which would require a knowledge of the characteristics of the amplifier as well as the scope to understand what one should expect to see. I can see that input impedance, amplifier DB gain and SNR all play a part in determining the result. Because, in addition to working with RF in tuner and IF stages, I am also looking to do some amateur radio work involving antennas and building filters etc, I am beginning to look at this noise issue as somewhat more relevant than I might have appreciated at first.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 23, 2022, 01:20:56 pmAssuming money was no object, would you actually buy this PicoScope over the Rigol MSO5000? I have a genuine reason for asking. As I understand it, the PicoScope has the more refined software, yet both are 8-bit. The PicoScope can do Bode plots, although I am not sure whether it can do Fourier transforms. They both have a 16-channel LA and a sig gen, but how would the PicoScope fare with that 2mV signal example?BTW, the comparisons were informative and interesting. Thank you to those who took the time and trouble to provide them. Of course, one might expect to see an improvements when going from an 8 bits to 10 or 12 bits, but even the 8-bit comparisons were quite stark.Quote from: trampas on October 23, 2022, 04:01:22 pmI can just imagine the scene: Alexa zoom in to.... Siri reset trigger.... Cotrana stop scope.... Sorry Dave I cannot do that....Only kidding of course, but I can see how that scenario with a microscope might be a pain. I wonder whether this type of thing might be useful to assist with working hands-free:https://sensepeek.com/

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 04:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 25, 2022, 04:01:42 pmIf2N3055can spare the time, he could test this. I'm interested too.He has 3 or 4 Picos, AFAIK. I'd be interested mainly in the 2000 and 3000 series.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 05:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 25, 2022, 02:13:17 pmYou don't need a trigger point to correlate signals beyond the time resolution of the internal sample interval. And roll-mode isn't special. It is just letting the aqcuisition system run freely (and stop it to examine the signal in more detail). Just think about this for a day before shooting from the hip and missing the point. Even in roll mode, there is a point of origin but this is just as arbitrary as a trigger point.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 06:31:06 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on October 25, 2022, 02:30:16 pmYes and no.How can someone with limited DSO experience really know what they need or don't.One day you might be doing the simplest blah blah blah scope work then the next diving into electronics that is new to you and therefore challenge your and your instruments capabilities.The 'plan to do' you mention is heading in the right direction but doesn't tell the full story of how we grow and in some cases outgrow our scopes/instrument capabilities.How would you address this better, well a better/bigger budget helps but that too doesn't address the an instrument can or can't do which is why the datasheet is our #1 guiding document followed by the User manual then followed by the likes of feedback from EEVblog members that actually own/use the instruments in question.At one time Dave's vids were good guidance however so many are now outdated as new feature set and functionality get added and/or he didn't test the more advanced instrument features.So we come back to this forum and the wealth of knowledge we collectively have.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 08:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 25, 2022, 06:43:33 amAlternatively: If you've got that skill+imagination and it's only for occasional use you can have $600 worth of other equipment for free!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 08:20:23 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 09:44:51 pmIt's very clearly stated in the manual.It has a 5V measurement range and a 14-bit ADC. Resolving single mV is on the limits of its resolution.Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 01:19:38 amBut what's the length of one 'step' compared to one sample interval? Tell us how it's supposed to show horizontal steps with that ratio?Does the Siglent perhaps have a smaller sample interval?Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 01:03:07 amI don't think the voltage is the problem.Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 01:03:07 amBut you were so happy with it a few days ago.This is turning into a comedy.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 08:34:47 pm
content: Hello,few samples from a PicoScope 5243A with a bandwith 200 MHz.Best Regardsegonotto

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2022, 08:20:23 pmAvoiding to quote piecewise..:1. Not single mV. It starts to have problems under 50 mV, and it sucks completely under 20 mV.2. Please elaborate about this steps thingy. I'm not sure I understand.3. What's the problem, then?4a. I didn't test it against the right (that is, wrong) signals. I update my evaluation as soon as I acquire new information & experience.4b. Tragedy, instrumentally speaking.Another thing is that the software is so good that one gets lured by it, not paying enough attention to the instrument itself.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2022, 10:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on October 25, 2022, 08:34:47 pmThese flexible ADCs make A LOT of difference. Maybe you can test it with a more irregular wave?

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 12:35:20 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 10:07:49 pmHello,few new samples from a PicoScope 5243A with a bandwith 200 MHz.Best RegardsegonottoPS: At tpico_16 plus 4_20MHz.jpg, the limit was exceeded. That is no longer possible.

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 04:34:15 am
content: This is mostly repeat, as it is with a pico 5244B. I am only posting it because I think I must have a lower noise signal than used in the other plots. The plots below are made using a tinySA as the source, generating a nominally -50 dBm (1 mV peak) sinusoid at 8 MHz. It is connected to the scope using the SMA cable that came with the tinySA and a cheap SMA-to-BNC adapter. These are single captures using the most sensitive 2mV/div scale (I have zoomed the scales for the images).The first two are with the full 200 MHz bandwidth at 8 and 12 bits, and the second two are with the 20 MHz bandwidth limiter turned on.jason

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:39:38 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 25, 2022, 10:04:10 pmClue #2: I believe what you're seeing is a lack of horizontal resolution, not a lack of vertical resolution.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 11:39:57 am
content: I have been comparing the datasheets for the PicoScope 3406Dand the Rigol MSO5000 series and they seem neck to neck in a number of ways, but there are some differences about which I am curious.Firstly there is the sample rate which is 1Gs/s on the PicoScope with only 250Ms/s per channel vs 8Gs/s and 2Gs/s per channel. For the price point, the PicoScope seems rather poor for a scope costing over 2k?Secondly, there seems to be no memory depth specification for the PicoScope. Is this because of its different architecture, the software running on a PC rather than on hardware inside the instrument? I.e is the memory depth bound only by the amount of PC memory available as opposed to the amount of physical memory installed in the instrument?Thirdly, the probes. Generally the standard for input impedance is 1MΩ. On the PicoScope this appears to be 200kΩ. Wouldn't this mean that probes are not interchangeable and one would have to use only PicoScope provided probes? For example, wouldn't a "standard" 10:1 probe become something like a 50:1 probe on the PicoScope?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 11:52:42 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 26, 2022, 11:39:57 amHem, what datasheet are you looking at?https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/3000/picoscope-3000-oscilloscope-specificationsFirst, current model is 3406D.Just a quick excerpt:Analog Input: impedance 1 MΩ ±1%, in parallel with 14 pF ±1 pF.Digital inputs: Input impedance 200 kΩ ±2% ∥ 8 pF ±2 pFBuffer memory: 512 MS

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 12:44:15 pm
content: The very same datasheet, but I omitted the 'D' in my post. I have also made a mistake regarding the input impedance data. There are two separate tables, one listing analog specifications and the other the digital specifications. I obviously took that from the wrong table.I wasn't sure whether "buffer memory" corresponded to "Max. Memory Depth" or not. One is specified in MS, the other in Mpts and I am not sure whether they correlate with each other. Assuming that a "point" is the same as a "sample" and MS stands for mega samples, then its'500''512' vs '200 (optional)' then this would just be a different way of stating the same statistic. But is my assumption correct?The only thing that would stand out as different then would be the sample rate with the PicoScope capturing 100,000 waveforms/s against the MSO5000's 450,000. I would appreciate a little help in understanding what 'Maximum sampling rate' vs 'Maximum effective sampling rate' in the attached snapshot means please?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 01:17:42 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on October 26, 2022, 12:44:15 pmScope's sampling memory is specified in number of samples not bytes. For instance 12bit Siglent scopes use 2 bytes per sample... So number ofsample pointsyou can fit in internal memory.Samplesandpointsare equivalent terms in this context. Those 500 MPoints are shared between all channels.'Maximum effective sampling rate' is name for ETS sampling Picoscope supports. On repetitive signal you can achieve equivalent of 25GS/s sampling rate. Signal has to be stable and very self correlated for that to work well.Realtime sample rate is 1GS/s total for all channels.

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 01:18:44 pm
content: WaveyDipole,The way to read this specification is:1) They have a single ADC that converts at a rate of 1 GS/s that is shared between the analog channels. They could have four ADC that are sampling at 250MS/s.2) They have the option to interleave the sampling or multiplex the ADC input depending on the arrangement of the ADCs.3) The raw ADC performance determines the ability to capture a single trigger event. The waveform is reconstructed from the ADC samples. Often a sinc function is used.4) If the input signal is repetitive, for example a continuous sinewave, multiple triggering events, shifted in time by a fraction of the sampling interval can be used to obtain more points. This is why the Maximum Effective sampling rate only applies to repetitive signals.Jay_Diddy_B

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:05:06 pm
content: As a matter of fact, the 2K and 3K Picos seem indeed to be overpriced with respect to many bench scopes with similar specs. I don't know why. Maybe it's that they are the de facto usb monopolysts, or that the software is much better than the software coming with benchtops.OTOH the analog discovery pro (4ch) is just 250 MSa/s and costs 1600 eur vat included.Other models do have peculiarities that make them expensive. E.g. the flexible ADCs on the 5K series. All those bits are quite effective, as demonstrated by the tests performed by egonotto and jason.There are others with separately grounded channels.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 26, 2022, 07:05:06 pmA SDS2104X Plus, 10" touch display 2 GSa/a and 200Mpts is a good bit cheaper than that.And you can put on a big screen via its webserver.

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 07:14:36 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 24, 2022, 11:54:33 pmKeep in mind that with 14bit resolution you will get 30.5uV resolution in the 500mV range.The AD2 has about 5mVp2p and 0.63mVrms noise in 2mV/div range (checked using the fly wire, +->gnd and ->gnd) and it's probably affecting your trace.

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 08:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: JeremyC on October 26, 2022, 07:14:36 pmYou missed a factor of 10. The spec says 320 uV resolution. A back of the envelope gives 5V/16384 = 305 uV.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 08:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 26, 2022, 07:12:34 pmThe ADP is 14 bit but... 4 channels at 250 MSa/s in total? No thanks. Of course the Siggy is better in terms of price for specs and features. Even a Pico 2408 is better. Or the HDO1000.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 08:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on October 26, 2022, 08:45:33 pmDon't overlook the SDS2000X Plus 10 bit mode however it does have a 100 MHz limitation.

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2022, 09:23:12 pm
content: Quote from: jasonRF on October 26, 2022, 08:43:58 pmBeing honest, I didn’t check the specs. I was suggested by the “500 mV are *a lot*” comment.My bad, sorry. After reading your comment, I agree with "5V it will be 305uV".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2022, 04:40:26 am
content: Quote from: JeremyC on October 26, 2022, 07:14:36 pmThere's no 500mV range.The AD2 has 5V and 20V ranges, that's it.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 11:31:47 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 24, 2022, 06:11:00 pmSorry, forget to reply...There was no persistence enabled, checked it on the next day at work after your post.Want to check it again if there was any disturbances that causes this "fatty, blurred" lines of the waveform.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2022, 03:34:08 pm
content: Well, the PicoScope is no longer in contention as it has been sold. I did seriously consider it, but had a hard time accepting the gap in specification, given that its brand new price is actually 2.5x that of the Rigol MSO5000 series and it is still an 8-bit scope. I am also not entirely convinced that a scope that needs to be tethered to a computer or laptop is necessarily most practical solution for my usage case, although perhaps it might have been possible to work around that. Given that the price for this used 3406 unit was roughly the same as the price of a the Rigol MSO5074, I figured it was at least worth considering.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 12:52:36 am
content: Picoscope doesn't make sense other than niche scenarios, eg:- you are a youtuber like SDG who can make good use of the on screen display- need to tightly couple it into some PC software (maybe exclusive software programmer and only want to use kb + mouse)- tie multiple units together for many channels, long continuous recording, etc.Its low volume, so the value for dollar can never be great. Whereas lower end rigols/siglents get pumped out by the tens of thousands, margin is lower, value is higher.Theoretically a USB scope could "outvalue" a benchtop unit, if the volumes were high enough.

author: Anding
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 02:58:11 am
content: I’m glad I move from a PC ‘scope to a bench ‘scope. Something about the ‘muscle memory’ of using the real controls. I’ve gotten used to it quickly and enjoy it. Maybe it’s me but I got stressed / confused trying to control everything with a mouse and keyboard

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 09:30:42 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 01, 2022, 12:52:36 amAlso PRO:- really big screen with full resolution. And dozens of different windows all with different measurements.- as many math channels as you like- arbitrary probes with linearization and lookup tables (not only atten. ratio)- more decodes than anything. Does your scope has I3C, 1-wire, PMBus, SMBus, SBS Data PS/2, DALI, DMX512, BroadR-Reach, MODBUS ASCII and RTU, DCC, Quadrature in addition to all CAN, CAN FD, FlexRay, Lin, Sent (fast/slow), I2C, I2S, SPI in several variants, Ethernet, Arinc, Mil1533 and other "normal" protocols. 31 altogether and counting..- Many people put scopes of the desk and use mouse to run it because keeping your hand in the air all the time is not comfortable. That is something happening more and more with new bigger screen touchscopes. So they consider running it by mouse a plus. Go figure, people are different. I think that is fruitless discussion, like one about automatic/manual gearbox in cars. Both work well, car gets you where you need to be, people have preferences.- You can define really fancy stuff in math. Like creating math that uses digital and analog channels together. It is dead easy to create all kinds of graphs where you convert sensor data to show actual physical data a sensor is measuring. Like showing temperature on screen from thermistor voltage. Or stepper angular movement from stepping voltages..- Having a single GUI for all hardware is very interesting experience. I have 3 picos (one 500 Mpts 4ch/MSO 8bit, one 8 ch 12bit, and one 16bit 2ch), and they all drive the same (within BW limits of course).- do you ever document anything or save a measurement and look at it later?On one occasion, my son was helping a friend that wanted to put in a Megasquirt ECU in his car. There were some problems with sensors not working. So he took Pico, went to his garage, then he had im crank the car few times and captured sensor signals one by one and saved them to PC. He brought ECU back with him, and were able to verify all sensors worked ok and then we created simulated signals by feeding captured data in to ECU with AWG and were able to find what was wrong with crankshaft sensor input, and we also calibrated it so when ECU was put back in car it simply started..There is more and more of that..It is simple. Like old saying goes "tool for the job".Some people do only repairs and do stuff that doesn't require analyzing things into details, but you move from one signal to another all the time. Physical controls might be useful for that. But new Pico software uses mouse wheel well, you just go over the control and roll the wheel..I have it connected to 23" touchscreen monitor. That makes it a breeze to control...Other people work on stuff where you look at single signal for hours.. Those don't twiddle the settings all the time.Picos are not the cheapest option there. But they are damn good tools for some jobs and some methodologies. Is it niche tools? I don't think so, but noteverybodyneedsthem and you need to be able to afford them.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 10:47:21 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 01, 2022, 09:30:42 amNo the scope doesn't, but the $10 logic analyzer I bought for the task does:https://sigrok.org/wiki/Protocol_decoders

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 10:47:09 am
content: Just my belated 2 cents.I would sell all my current stuff, and just get the MSO5074 (because of the 4 probes, and the price difference is negligible). But then, 2 upgrades are needed. I probably want to do my own (slightly improved) version ofhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/function-generator-booster-for-mso5000/msg2958594/#msg2958594(with a jumper to take external PSU input instead of USB which limits you to 5V).The logic probe expansion I also wanna redoSee some interesting threadshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso5000-threadlist/msg4029820/#msg4029820here.But as mentioned before, if you care a bout super low voltage measurement, then the MSO5000 are sub-optimal

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 01:41:15 pm
content: Interesting point about the probes. I was watching this comparison video last night:Is it a fair assessment? It does seem to focus on the facts.The Siglent SDS2104X Plus is currently on offer and seems generally to be considered the better scope so I was considering stretching my budget. There is currently around 112GBP difference between them but adding the special bundle including the LA probe to the Siglent adds a further 214GBP so it might still be a stretch of around 326GBP. Total cost with and without LA probe options comes out at:Rigol 5074 only = 855GBPRigol 5074 + PLA2216 LA probe = 1177GBPRigol 5074 + alternative LA probe = 950GBPSiglent SDSD2102 Plus only = 967GBPSiglent SDS2102X Plus + special bundle = 1182GBPSiglent SDS2102X Plus + alternative LA probe = 1030GBPSiglent SDS2104X Plus only = 967GBPSiglent SDS2104X Plus + special bundle = 1182GBPSiglent SDS2104X Plus + alternative LA probe = 1030GBPIt is my understanding that the special bundle is needed in order to unlock the sig gen and LA and it does come with the LA probe. However, there are a couple of matters that I am unsure about, including the probes.Firstly it comes with PP215 probes which are rated to 200MHz. One has to purchase the SDS2354 Plus to get the SP2035A 350MHz probes and otherwise request a quote to get a price on them. If one upgrades the scope licence later, would the SP2035A probes be available to purchase? In any case, there seems to be plenty of 350MHz-500MHz passive probes available on eBay.Secondly, the logic analyzer probe seems to be a passive rather than active probe. How does that affect performance?There is an alternative available on eBay. Anyone have experience of either version from the same seller shown here?https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224808600466https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225024212937There video illustrates the difference in the noise level quite clearly and the difference in the usability of the firmware, but also mentions that the SDS2000x does not support horizontal vernier? How does that affect usage? Does it mean that one can't scroll left or right to view a larger portion of the captured signal?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 01:41:15 pmFacts can be cherry picked.Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 01:41:15 pmYes.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:29:12 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 01:41:15 pmOne of those is a 4-channel 'scope and the the other is only a 2-channel.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 03:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2022, 02:29:12 pmThat is a good point. For electronics development work, I'd go for a 4 channels oscilloscope.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 04:03:13 pm
content: Sorry for the error. I am actually comparing the SDS2104X Plus.Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2022, 02:21:09 pmTrue enough, but what I thought was interesting here is that he acknowledges that he is a Rigol fan, but in this comparison he seems to prefer the Siglent SDS2104X Plus.Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2022, 02:21:09 pmThat would be unfortunate. On my DSO1054Z, when capturing I2C data for example, I can scroll backwards or forwards through quite a bit of data either side of what is currently displayed on the screen and zoom in and out. To me, the ability to do that for digital signals would be essential.Can the LA data on the Siglen be easily exported? On the 1054Z its a slow and problematic process and I understand that the MSO5000 is not much better. If the data can't be viewed on screen, then it needs to be viewed some other way. The SDS2000X is supported by Sigrok so maybe that is one option? How close is this to the SDS2000X Plus? I am not seeing the MSO5000 on the Sigrok supported hardware list though.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 05:43:11 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2022, 02:21:09 pmFacts can be cherry picked, which you abuse at expert level...Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2022, 02:21:09 pmAbsolute and deliberate lie. Because you know damn well that it can.There is adisputeas to what isbest way to get large capture, but you can absolutely scroll left and right and zoom in and out to look at any portion ofcapturedsignal on any of the scopes mentioned....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 05:48:16 pm
content: The problem is that some people want an oscilloscope to just capture more than fits on the screen without extra hassle. Please stop pushing your limited ideas about what is usefull to have onto other people. Nobody cares.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 05:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 23, 2022, 05:43:11 pmHuh?If I press 'STOP' on a Siglent then I only have what's on screen in that instant, there's nothing to left or right.Do I really have to post the videoagain?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 05:58:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 23, 2022, 05:48:16 pmI'm not pushing anything, you abrasive stalker...Read it again...:There is a dispute as to what is best way to get large capture, but you can absolutely scroll left and right and zoom in and out to look at any portion of captured signal on any of the scopes mentioned....

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 06:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2022, 05:55:58 pmNo you don't, you just like being a troll.Read my sentence again. If you and your troll buddy don't understand it I will try to make a version with little pictures...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 06:07:01 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 23, 2022, 05:58:29 pmMore moving of goal posts and more hand waving. Just stop and contribute something that is actually useful to the forum.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 06:11:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 23, 2022, 06:07:01 pmAmazing..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 06:22:33 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 23, 2022, 06:00:07 pmPlease do. Let the entire world see it.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 07:01:07 pm
content: This clearly shows zooming in and out although I didn't notice any horizontal scrolling :Is left/right scrolling the same as 'horizontal vernier'?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 07:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2022, 05:55:58 pmAnd then ?Use a larger timebase, then use the zoom function and see- If YOU would have a siglent.QuoteYou can post it again and again, it makes nothing better/worse/true.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 07:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 23, 2022, 07:05:39 pmYes, we all work at large timebases when we use oscilloscopes.Not.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 07:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 01:41:15 pmWatch out for that "Compatible" Siglent adapter.It seems like the seller did a "China redesign" on the design.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3903845/#msg3903845It's a 2 layer PCB , and OZ2CPU (who made the Original PCB), says it won't preserve the signal integrity , if not 4 layer./Bingo

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 08:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on November 23, 2022, 07:23:17 pmHmmm, thanks for spotting that. The thread also makes the point that the re-design does not give credit to the original designer. They are just selling an inferior copy. I won't be buying that then.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 08:29:42 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 07:01:07 pmHorizontal position is separate button.There is a function some scopes have is that you can have fine tuning of horizontally displayed timebase. So your scope shows 11uS/div or 13 ms/div not only standard 1-2-5-10-20-50-100-200-500 steps... I believe that would be vernier..

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 08:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 23, 2022, 07:05:39 pmThat's exactly what Dave does in the video to work around the problem, but he also compares several oscilloscopes and only the Siglent seems to behave this way. Others that don't support auto memory depth do at least allow the user to manually change it. The Siglent seems to be the only one that doesn't? However, Dave's video was posted 2 years ago, so maybe this has since been addressed by Siglent? Or is it still the same in the latest firmware?Quote from: 2N3055 on November 23, 2022, 08:29:42 pmThanks for clarifying that. Similar to having the timebase set off the CAL position on an analogue scope then. I think it was mentioned in one of the videos that not many digital scopes do that, so perhaps its a high end feature?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 09:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on November 23, 2022, 07:23:17 pmIt's used by LeCroy, Tek, Rigol and Siglent and the current promotional price is probably the best price you'll ever find them.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 09:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 08:39:23 pmSeems is correct but fact is LeCroy and IIRC Pico work this way too.It's a design decision and decades old in some products.No disadvantage, you just use the scope slightly differently.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 09:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 08:39:23 pmNo because it is not bug or problem.On the 2k HD, the 5000X and 6000A you can set the memory manually but not to make some people happy, it will be used for the digital filter functions these scopes got.BTW, on my former rigol mso you can set the memory manually at the highest value at any timebase.But thedefaultsetting is auto for good reasons.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 09:54:40 pm
content: I found a further follow-up video by Dave on the subject here:In it he explains why the Siglent behaves they way it does and also mentions the relationship between LeCroy and Siglent. It is no surprise then, that their design philosophy is very similar. I can't speak to the Pico, but since this is a USB scope and data capture happens in PC memory, the design architecture is bound to be different. Maybe somone with a Picoi can confirm this and draw a comparison?Dave did test this issue on several other brands of scope including Rigol, Keysight, Tektronix, Unit-T and GwInstek. Whether it is considered different way of working, a bug or an unusual design decision, I guess at the end of the day the buyer will have to decide whether they want to work the Siglent/LeCroy way. I won't know until I try, but 1200GBP is a lot of money to buy and try and then find one doesn't like, although I agree that the promotional prices is a good deal at the moment and I probably don't have long to make my mind up.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 10:07:59 pm
content: WD, it's a design decision for a good # or reasons and using Zoom and zooming out can exceed scopes that capture outside the display. Some early and current Siglents still work this way but without deep memory there are limits to how much you can zoom out. Pro's and cons whichever way you look at this and neither capture philosophy is right or wrong, just different.Crippling it certainly is not !

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 12:24:05 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 09:54:40 pmHello,in PicoScope you can not zoom out.Best regardsegonotto

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 09:06:52 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 23, 2022, 10:07:59 pmWell 'crippling' was Dave's description and the video was made two years ago. I am just looking for an update on and clarification of the facts which I now appear to have received. Many thanks.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 10:30:01 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 23, 2022, 09:54:40 pmJust saw this video, i was not aware of this "detail", this thing could kill my current purchase plan for SDS2104x Plus + LA probes at sale price, because i'm a guy that does make use of "zoom out" feature a lot, especially with LA acquisition and if I think to the way i use the single shot operation i can see a huge show stopper.As Dave i do not see a reason why not include a memory management mode automatic switch based on history ON/OFF setting, i also struggle to see it as design decision, i would say instead a "simplification" of the SW module that manages acquisition memory, otherwise we should think at an HW architecture limitation (do not think it's the case).I use in regular basis an MSO5000 at a customer lab (not hacked), the things i'm not happy about are mainly UI odd organization, overall laggy feeling and dull screen, while memory management is in line with my need and the sample rate is nicely high.To put i simple, with Rigol if you set the memory in auto mode you get the Siglent behavior seen in Dave's video, otherwise you are able to select what you want ... i rarely use auto settings.This "discovery" put me back to the point to find an alternative to MSO5000, unless Siglent decide to implement the memory mode "switch" (if i well understood from the discussion it is present in HD models) or i decide that this kind of limitation is worth the superior screen size, the better menu organization, the fast UI operation and quieter analog inputs.Of course a FW upgrade with the desired feature implemented would solve my indecision with an instant Siglent purchase (subliminal message to Siglent marketing).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 12:43:57 pm
content: Like I said before I really hate this "Zoom out "debate.First thing wrong is choice of terms.Few people chose to use term "zoom out" for using a manual memory capture mode and forced it upon us. That is not only wrong and unfortunate but is confusing because it has nothing to do with the actual Zoom mode most scopes have.To add to confusion, this "zoom out" means different things to different people :- 1. You put scope into manual memory mode so it captures fixed amount of time every time (say 10ms) regardless of time base setting. That way you can set timebase knob to 100ns/div but on trigger scope actually captures 10ms every time. Then if you stop, you have 10ms captured always, regardless what you see on the screen. Then you can use timebase knob to change "timebase" on stopped capture and move left and right with horizontal knob. This works deterministically as long as sample rate doesn't change, you don't change numbers of channels etc. And your triggering rate will be very low. This works well for long sparsely repeating sequences with large memory allocated.- 2. Keysight Megazoom scopes have a feature that they capture same as Siglent (auto mode, only screen length) but when you press stop, they trigger of another trigger and then keep sampling full memory. That final sample after you pressed Stop will have more data than on screen if timebase is set to some fast settings (for instance you are at 100ns/div, scope will actually capture 100us of data). Then you can use timebase knob to change "timebase" on stopped capture and move left and right with horizontal knob. Make note that except for that final additional capture, Megazoom scopes don't capture anything outside scope screen while continuously triggering. So, for instance, if your signal makes a burst and stops, you press Stop, there will be nothing outside screen.None of that is using Zoom function.Siglent, Picoscope, LeCroy, uses different paradigm (similar to what a CRT scope does) where data captured is length of the screen. It doesn't mean it uses screen pixels, but that a time length captured always is same as screen width timewise (time/div*N of horizontal division). So, as you would with a CRT scope, you need to fit all the data you want to see on a screen. That makes it hard to see detail though. And that is why there is actual Zoom mode. You press Zoom and now you have dual timebase and position on a screen: one smaller full signal, and one magnified portion with separate timebase that you can position horizontally anywhere you like in larger buffer.It is obviously different way of dealing with things. I find it logical and easy to use. I can see it only being a problem on scopes with small screens or if you want to cram all 20 channels 4 math channels, 4 reference channels and 4 decodes + tables on the screen at the same time. Which will be crowded anyways.Some people don't like it for whatever reason. They insist this is wrong and a bug and retarded or whatnot. It is not. It is different of what they like and they should not buy it if it doesn't work for them. There are many of us who find it perfectly usable and more logical. Go figure, we all are different...But with this bullying campaign, i feel like a lefty being forced to write with a right hand. There is nothing wrong with either way, you just learn how to use it. And to add, I have several scopes from all of the 3 groups and they all work fine. I simply learned to use them as they are meant to be used.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:00:20 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 12:43:57 pmWhy? Because you're not winning?Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 12:43:57 pmMaybe not technically correct but everybody else seems to understand what's being discussed.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 12:43:57 pmLet's put things in this way : Dave's video show the facts plain & simple, the scope worksalwaysin history mode, regardless the menu setting and dedicated button, there is now way to prove that this is a wise design decision which leads to some benefits because other brands offer this mode PLUS "zoom out" feature (i know, wrong term but gives the idea instantly) that it comes in handy in a lot of situations.It would be more coherent to remove history menu ON/OFF setting, otherwise it smell like an unfinished work.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:24:41 pm
content: Quotehttps://youtube.com/watch?v=EdDQOVpIpQA&feature=share

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:28:58 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 12:43:57 pmI hope you see the contradiction in your own sentence. It is you who has been doing to bullying here by trying to take away a feature that many people here find useful. On the contrary nobody ever has been suggesting to remove the auto memory length setting from a DSO. Nobody is taking anything away from the way you like to work. So I don't get why you would even feel people are forcing you to write with a different hand. That is only in your imagination so please do a reality check here. Heck, I don't think anyone (besides the people with a financial interest in Siglent) has ever tried so hard to downplay a feature in a piece of test equipment as you have where it comes to 'zooming out'. Really, the problem is at your end.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 24, 2022, 01:28:58 pmYou have trouble with distorted reality. Anybody that doesn't agree with you 100% is your enemy. It is called paranoia...It is you who DID say all of us that don't agree with you are wrong, stupid, shills, Siglent trolls (despite repeated explanation that it is not only Siglent that has this strategy), that people are stupid to buy any scope that cannot capture with manual memory etc etc... It is you who wants all of us to behave the way youlike us to be. You are telling me I'm all this bad stuff because I said that all of this purported problems you claim are not an issue for me.I never ever said manual memory mode should be forbidden. I never said you should stop doing what you do.I DID say that it is different, explained many times exactly how it works and that if you use Zoom mode it is not a problem.I have been using scopes with this "WSIWYG" memory mode (lets call it that for purpose of this discussion) for 20 years and never found it wanting. I simply adjusted my work appropriately. Not being able to "zoom out" never, ever, in 20+ years was a problem to me. Years before I even heard of Siglent..It is not Siglent related at all. It applies to several other brands.My stance is inclusionary, I say 10 types of brands all work fine. Your stance is exclusionary , you say these 3-4 types of scopes are not worth buying based on this single architectural difference. It is you who wants to forbid people to use Picoscope, LeCroy, Siglent or any other scope that has similar architecture because you don't want to accept it is different and you need to learn different ways.So yeah, it's not me...

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:11:20 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 01:48:17 pmNot true, zoom takes place on the screen and requires additional computation, I would understand if applied to one or max two traces, over this configuration becomes really ugly, especially with LA engaged.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:13:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2022, 01:00:20 pmI thought it was about truth and helping people find the right choice for their hard earned money.Now I see it is a personal vendetta on your side. Oh well, good luck with that... Winning, LOL.. kindergarten stuff, my God...Technically correct is the right type of correct. This is electronics, only technically correct is important. If you want to do philosophy or argue law interpretations, I'm sure there are better places for these topics.And no, not everybody understands it, actually everyday I see people asking confused questions about it. And it seems to me that you personally like that everything is very mudded so you can "win", because facts are not on your side. And like I said, good luck with that.I have quite a body of knowledge and experience on oscilloscopes. Which I demonstrate daily. I have 7 scopes of which only 2 are Siglent. I have Keysight 3000T, 3 different Picoscope and a Micsig STO1004. I had Rigol 1074Z (no I didn't hack it) which I sold. I write about that, from my experience.That is all.And in this last post of mine I did not "attack" "people that zoom out". I wanted to explain the topic because there are different thing different people are pushing under same name..But you are stalker and you "can't let me win"..Lol..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 24, 2022, 02:11:20 pmThat is wrong. On all current Siglent scopes (we are discussing those right?) it hardware accelerated and happens in hardware.As I said, it does get busy. No question there.And you don't have to use zoom mode at all. You can capture 100ms (on 10ms/div), stop and then use timebase and horizontal same way as on those "other type" scopes. Difference is only how you make initial capture.Our user Nico does this thing where he needs to look at certain shorter portion of signal all the time while still capturing lots of it and also having very bussy screen. For him in that case, there is no replacement for a scope that can manually set memory. He is right about that.But I personally never used scope like that, for that particular job I would use different workflow. But for him it is right choice.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:24:33 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 02:21:05 pmFinally you admit the problem.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:39:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2022, 02:24:33 pmNo I have been saying it all the time.. You just kept saying I was wrong without comprehension.In fact is it you finally confirming what I was saying all the time thatafter you capture signal differentlyitsame and both types of scopes behave the same?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 02:21:05 pmIn hardware does not mean zero time, but even supposing so it remains the problem of screen space occupation.Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 02:21:05 pmHere we are : if I capture 10 times (or more) the optimal horizontal scale to eye watch waveform's detail I lose visibility of the details which lead to the need to stop at right moment.I do often this kind of verification on the field, i stop manually when i spot something odd on the waveform that has to be represented on the screen with the proper horizontal scale, not compressed like it happens when i set time scale 10 times more (ie).That's the crucial point, sure not mandatory for everyone, but essential to know before buying.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 03:53:13 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 24, 2022, 02:48:37 pmIn which case you are doing exact thing that Nico does and exactly the way he does it. Which means you should probably listen to his advice.He likes R&S scopes and says they work well for him. Maybe he will be willing to help you in more detail.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 04:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 24, 2022, 03:53:13 pmMen, this is really funny to say the least !I started to use DSO in this way waaaay before this forum existed, nor that i know in person Nico while I work with many people that make the very same thing without having known by me (or Nico).About this matter I feel totally aligned with Dave's thinking expressed in his video and I wonder how a technician who works in electronics cannot know this technique or consider it superfluous.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 06:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 24, 2022, 09:06:52 amOf that I'm very aware.The only thing crippled in this matter is Dave's ability to use a tool in a different manner than he's been used to !Does he call out one of the largest scope manufacturers capture strategy, or the markets leading USB scope manufacturers capture strategy as crippled, NO, he hasn't the understanding to do that.You are missing a few facts which primarily are the costs to performance of providing a zoom out capture strategy using traditional HW. Design choices based on the HW used drive the end result engineers give us.Hence the move by some to ASIC's to help to reduce those performance hits especially when deep memory is required.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 06:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 24, 2022, 06:37:24 pmNonsense. It has been made clear to you many times already that being able to zoom out or not, has zero impact on the performance of any DSO. It doesn't depend on hardware capabilities or resources as all; it is purely user interface / appearance. After all, zooming out is no more than changing the width of a zoom window without having the zoom window active on the screen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 07:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 24, 2022, 06:52:39 pmAnd it's been made clear to you many times that itdoes.There are many events/situations where you can't just zoom out and "recapture but with the data on either side".Not using all the memory when told to do so is also inexcusable.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 07:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2022, 07:35:55 pmNo, it doesn't. You can still select a shorter memory length or use auto mode to increase capture rate if necessary. Being able to zoom out (set a hard/fixed acquisition memory length) only adds flexibility. It does not take any feature away and/or reduce any performance metric. Anyone claiming otherwise does not understand how the memory management of a DSO actually works.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 07:56:15 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 24, 2022, 04:29:32 pmAnd it made sense 20 years ago with 4" screens. We all know about it. We choose not to do it because there are more user friendly ways nowadays. But each person chooses for themselves for its specific circumstances..

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 08:03:26 pm
content: For those that need a refresher:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-zoom-out-quirk/Some facts are still valid others changed as equipment always does along with the way we use it.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 11:00:11 pm
content: This conversation started as a question regarding the Rigol MSO5074 and was meant to focus on that scope. For that reason I didn't comment on, although I noted, some of the points made about the Siglent scopes early on in the thread. However, the recent Black Friday deal on the SDS2104X Plus had me wondering whether it might be worthwhile to stretch my budget bit. If I were going to do so, this warranted a more in-depth consideration of the scope and so after some fact finding and resulting questions, I ended up bringing the SDS2104X Plus into the conversation. However, I am almost regretting having done so! Still, doing so has provided me with an opportunity to learn a bit more.I have even been looking at the manual, and can see why the term 'Zoom' actually means something different on the SDS2104X Plus to what might be considered the conventional meaning of viewing data either side of that displayed on the screen. I am, however, still struggling with the concept of History on the Siglent and what its purpose is? It seems that this since this records a history of captured frames, it ought to display the data that is before or after the current frame, hence something akin to a conventional 'zoom' in effect, but I am not sure? I do find it difficult to accept that the reason why the conventional form of 'zoom' and auto memory depth selection were omitted was for performance reasons of because one might run out of memory buffer space. I also find it incomprehensible that Siglent could not implement a conventional auto and manual memory depth control, utilizing up to the full 200Mpt memory depth when history is turned off. It has been done on other scopes and clearly can be done even if only to provide the user with a choice of how they want to operate. Omitting this feature therefore seems to have the appearance of a philosophical/conceptual rather than engineering design decision. That being said, maybe there are engineering or hardware considerations that have influenced the design. Trying to filter out the facts has not been easy, but regardless of who is right and who is wrong, or the advantages and disadvantages, it is what it is and one has to figure out whether one will be happy with learning to work in a different way to what one previously might have been used to. I have no objection to learning new ways of doing things and possibly this issue has been exaggerated, but this has certainly given me pause for thought. I only wish I could see it in actual operation in some online demo. I did actually look for one that might show and explain this aspect but so far haven't found one.Since there really is no comparable alternative other than the MSO5074 in this price range, the choice seems to boil down to the MSO5074 with its noisy front end, slightly darker screen, less polished UI and unclear channel lights but with a familiar way of working, or stretching the budget a bit to the SDS2000X Plus, which is generally considered to be the better scope, but learn new ways of working and accept that it comes with bandwidth limited probes at this price point. In addition, it appears that the only available and viable LA probe for the Siglent is the official probe that currently comes as part of the bundle deal. Regardless of how good a deal that bundle might be at the moment, the fact is, that by comparison, the Rigol comes with the LA and Sig Gen functions already enabled. Although their 'official' LA probe is expensive, there is a viable and affordable third party alternative.While I have been seriously considering the SDS2104X Plus for the last couple of days, I feel the pendulum beginning to swing back towards the MSO5074...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 11:33:52 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 24, 2022, 11:00:11 pmThe best way by far is to prepare some tests relevant to the kind of work you do and simply try both. There is no amount of reading reviews, forum posts or watching videos that equals to getting some hands-on experience yourself.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 11:36:11 pm
content: Hi,QuoteMe I´ve owned both scopes, so I know what I´m talking about and musn´t repeat something what I´ve heard like a parrot.First the sentence I´ve quoted.There is somekind of manual memory selection on the sds2k+ avaible.But it goes in other direction, e.g. when the timebase allows the full memory, you can decrease it - That is something I´ve used to get it "faster".This is functional at lower timebases, at higher ones the auto memory management takes more and more control about it.On the rigol MSO5000, you can set the memory manually and the setting will stay on every timebase you use.But thedefault, the recommended setting is AUTO...Guess why....Me I always use the auto setting on both scopes.When I want to see "more" informations on the screen I use lower timebase, when I want to see detailed informations, I use zoom or shorter timebase.Doing this way I musn´t make up my mind if I could get all memory at any timebase.Actually I got the "new" Siglent HD scope which allows full control of its memory, when it´s interesting I can do some tasks on it, just tell me what to do.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:09:28 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 24, 2022, 11:00:11 pmThe best path would be to rent both instruments a couple of days and decide after having played a bit.I'm too considering the SDS2104x plus but the memory management kills some of my user cases especially with LA operation, on the other side the MSO5000's UI bored me with its "laggyness" and odd menu organization (i use it a couple of day by week) and i struggle to think it as my next personal DSO.But i'm also considering to drop the DSO's LA in favor to an external device, so i put on order a DSlogic plus to evaluate this solution, if it works as expected, the DSO choice will be easier.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:42:55 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 24, 2022, 06:52:39 pmIf so, it's a really a bad design choice by those who choose not to implement zoom out properly. But then I really doubt people would be so dumb. It's reasonable to think that zooming out poses problems in its hardware or software actual implementation.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:52:09 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 25, 2022, 12:09:28 amI think it boils down to how much you value MSO integration. If you are content with externally triggering a saleae clone or digital discovery, you can spare some money and be less conditioned in the choice of your next scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:21:08 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on November 25, 2022, 01:42:55 amPeople are that dumb. Don't forget Siglent is relatively new to the oscilloscope market so there are a lot of things they still need to figure out and improve. Zooming out is something they overlooked and/or some of their advisors gave them bad advise. Again, all the functionality needed to support zooming out is already there.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:36:27 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on November 25, 2022, 01:42:55 am"properly" is this entire silly argument, I think a scope that overflows the visible window as a normal/routine operation is silly and a downside, others disagree (and post endless noisy misleading posts on this forum about it as quoted above). What is properly? that depends on what you are trying to do! All the choices have downsides, that might be a problem in certain situations.Both methods have downsides, neither are universal. It is a general question of how should a scope select the memory depth and sample rate, two things that can be orthogonal to the horizontal timebase but aren't fully independent on any scope (that I am aware of).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:50:13 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2022, 02:21:08 amGarbage, Siglent have made DSO's that zoom out for years and recently has added it to later product lines asjust another feature, one that's nice but there are performance penalties to be paid for using it.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 08:28:10 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2022, 02:21:08 amAnd there we are...

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 08:59:18 am
content: Quote from: Someone on November 25, 2022, 02:36:27 amAgain ... Rigol with memory set to Auto operates exactly like the Siglent, in addition RIGOL allows you to select a fixed value and make use of the whole amount.So now having more options is a silly downside where having less is a feature ?Come guys, your speeches are getting ridiculous, marketing is a thing, technical speech is another one an this is a technical forum.Please correct me if i'm wrong.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 09:12:02 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 25, 2022, 08:59:18 amYes, having more choice is good. But when you unpick the arguments "for" zoom-out as a workflow it relies on many simultaneous conditions which are not routine/normal/everyday. Do please read that thread linked above, as it covers the entire thing fairly comprehensively rather than going back to unproductive arguing about out of context one liners (pretty much blows up the same every time).... saying there is no downside is rather inflammatory given the history here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-zoom-out-quirk/Back on the Rigol 5000 to keep this thread on track, it lets you do either, choices! great. The zoom mode does not allow adjusting the relative split of the two sides but is a pretty good fixed/default size:

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 09:50:03 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 25, 2022, 08:59:18 amYou are free to use the tools as you like and to like whatever tools you like. You, Nico, Joe and Jane. More power to you!Argument is not about fact that anybody says that having one option less is much better than having one option more.It revolves around argument that scopes that cannot be made to capture outside designated timebase windows (as set by user, who set that exact timebase for some reason) are not worth buying. Because that is apparently most important feature scope can have and scope is useless without it.Argument is also about fact that it is constantly being pushed upon us that this is exclusive "defect" of Siglent (it is not), that it "defect" (it is not, it is valid architectural decision), and that it is "Stupidity" that is reason Siglent does it that way.All those statements are wrong and some are offensive.I just saw an post from Someone who nicely summed it up and I also suggest to read that topic.And yes please let's people discuss MSO5000 in a topic about MSO5000.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 09:57:43 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 24, 2022, 11:00:11 pmThere's been 3 years of using Rigol 5074.From this list, I will retain only "noisy front end", as a real problem, but only at very lower signals (1-20mV). Most signal we visualize in digital electronics will be higher in amplitude.Screen brightness even is less bright than Siglent, is more than enough when working with it. I didn't feel the need of a more bright screen.Less polished UI, well ..., for me this is the reason why i don't buy Siglent scopes. I don't like their UI .... I've had Siglent SDS1202X-E, I dont liked his UI.But I will add 8 Gs from Rigol vs 2 Gs from Siglent.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:33:20 am
content: Quote from: skander36 on November 25, 2022, 09:57:43 amThank you for a good post!I would add that I find all "non touchscreen" scopes awkward to use. And that is not a statement of manufacturers doing a bad job most of the time, but fact that "classic" scope user interface is not best fit for complexity of these devices. There are just too many things inside, and "computer like" interface better handles that complexity.I wonder what would you think of new Siglent touchscreen interface (that is equally different to the one on SDS1000X-E as the MSO5000 is). I find it quite logical to use.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:46:39 am
content: Without using it I can't say much about new interface, but the reason is a subjective one. I'm sure under influence of SDS1202.Clearly is not from a usability perpective. I'm convinced that Siglent did a good job, but visualy it is not appealing to me.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:04:22 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 25, 2022, 09:50:03 amI would add David, in first place, and many thousands of techs that know their job, what i got here is that sales men are far to understand the matter.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:14:44 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 25, 2022, 12:09:28 amI was thinking along similar lines. It seems that an external LA might be a better option than the ones built into these scopes. I was considering the Hantek 4032 as it has 32 channels. I also looked at the DsLogic, but don't like the way that they have essentially taken the Sigrok project work, gave it their branding and passed it off as their own without giving the Sigrok project credit. Still, technically I hear it is meant to be a good option and is affordable.If I went down the route of an external LA, then I might want to find non-MSO oscilloscope that can cover a similar bandwidth range to the MSO5000 or SDS2104X Plus for a similar or lower price range. However, I don't think there is such a thing on the market. I am therefore wondering whether it might make sense to simply save the money I am considering spending on an LA probe and purchase a separate LA instead. Sigrok covers so many more protocols than either of the MSOs. I already own one of those cheap $25 ones, but need something a bit faster. The Saleae might have been an option if the 16-bit version didn't cost more than an MSO!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 25, 2022, 11:04:22 amYou keep implying that those that oppose you don't know their job...At which I will respond in kind: those with limited knowledge see only one way to solve the problem, even if there are many other ways...Ruminate on that.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:01:36 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 25, 2022, 11:14:44 amThis is eternal debate.Some facts.What most people nowadays call LA is not really a proper LA. These are some simplified devices that can record state from digital inputs, coupled with some software that can analyse such streams.Real old school LA had staggering complexity and almost infinite capabilities compared to modern "toy" devices.Problem is that once speeds on certain interfaces went too high, and most of slow data transfer(and some of fast ones) was migrated to on board serial protocol links of all sorts, these old school LA stopped being made. There was not enough demand in industry to keep making them. We came to the point that new DDR4 and DDR5 interfaces cannot even be instrumented directly to connect to some measurement device without destroying the very signal margin you try to measure. FPGA devices are being equipped with internal eye diagraming instrumentation to be able to verify SI..Etc etc..I don't deal with legacy 8 computers or retro computing electronics. So even if I bought ZeroPlus LA (that has both trig in and out and can do synchronous sampling like a proper LA) I used it maybe 5 times total in 5+years.It support literally more than 100 protocols, and is well made device.But for modern electronics it is either what you can do with simple MSO scope or you need 5GHz+ BW and probes that cost as much as my apartment.As I said, many a time this was discussed and always ended the same: everybody should own a 20something $ Ebay LA that can be connected to sigrok. Why: it cost nothing, and while limited it can do a lot of stuff. Sort of a it's better than nothing argument, but in this case way better. It's clunky and stuff but you can do surprisingly lot with it. 20$ Ebay clone with Sigrok will have same rudimentary triggering as Saelae and actually more protocol decodes....For people with more money there is DSlogic and those with even more Saelae.DSLogic actually have much more capable hardware and triggering than Saelae, which I consider an Apple of these LA: deliberately simplified device but what it has works out of the box.Saelae is functionally equivalent to 20$ Ebay clone, so you are paying for software, in this case just works ease of use.DSlogic OTOH is much more powerful.These 3 LA devices all will work very well for decoding and looking into long sequences of serial messages.They are very good to a software person writing software stack on a solid proven hardware.They will not tell you if message was sent wrongly because of software or if it got corrupted by signal integrity issues on the bus. That is very important on multipoint buses and noisy buses.For that you need scope that has to have sufficient bandwidth to look at the communications bus SI in analog domain.And this is how it was made long time ago: with analog scope you were looking at SI, running all kinds of synthetic data patterns (PRBS or specially designed pathological patterns to provoke certain error states) and once engineer doing that was happy, hardware was passed to software guys to do their thing.With time MSO scopes appeared and new stuff was possible: time correlation of analog signals and digital data and messages. Also with decoding from analog channels, you could do both SI and message debug at the same time. One place where that made big change was CAN bus, for instance... Nodes stepping on each other is much easier to spot with MSO, while on CAN message level you just saw an error ...That is a landscape in short. Everybody decide what is important for them.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:48:04 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 25, 2022, 02:36:27 amAgree this is an ongoing "silly argument", thanks for pointing this out!!Reminds of a right handed screwdriver, but I'm left handed, so I can't use the right handed screwdriver, especially CCW, but if one stands on their head does the right handed screwdriver work CCW now, or maybe we just need to get both, a left and right handed screwdriver .Best,

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 25, 2022, 10:33:20 amYep. I wouldn't like to go back to a twisty-knob 'scope after owning a touch-screen one.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 03:21:00 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2022, 02:35:51 pmAgree, but still think best is combined touchscreen and some knobs..

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 04:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on November 24, 2022, 12:24:05 amAgreed, but you can use the zoom function to get around that in some ways. Attached is a screenshot made using a lowly 2204a to show how it works. The main screen is only displaying a fraction of the total samples captured; the inset shows longer waveform you have captured and the window that you are viewing (you can minimize the inset if you don't want to see it). You can scroll around while the scope is running or stopped. But this does take one extra step to setup. I use this a lot with my 5244B that has much deeper memory.I will stay out of the arguments about this, though!jason

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 05:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: jasonRF on November 25, 2022, 04:58:09 pmNoooo, it's even better, on Picoscope singe zoom is only the beginning. You can open numerous scope windows simultaneously with separate zoom settings...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 09:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 25, 2022, 03:21:00 pm

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 25, 2022, 11:14:44 amAll depends how much you can step down from MSO's LA performance (MSO5000 is able to sample all 16CH@1Gs/s with 26Mpts/ch while Siglent SDS2000x Plus datasheet reports 16CH@500Ms/s with 50Mpts/ch) and/or which trigger mechanisms you need.If the answer is "a lot", as in my personal case, it makes a lot of sense to choose a separate USB LA solution with Trigger Output line (as I did) that also works nicely in streaming mode, otherwise it would be better to go with an MSO.If i understood correctly what you need a DSLogic Plus would largely fit your need @ 120-150USD.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:34:37 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on November 25, 2022, 01:48:04 pmNumberOfFarFromUnderstandingTheMatter += 1;

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:59:29 pm
content: more cost & complexity, do we really need more of it. if I'm just a weekender

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:03:23 pm
content: QuoteWhat´s the matter...

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:08:27 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 25, 2022, 11:03:23 pmMartin, You already know

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 25, 2022, 08:59:18 amDepends on the options...You are on the road with your car, when a curve comes you follow it, you have no alternative.Or you arrive at a crossroads, then you have more options.You can turn right, turn left or go straight ahead.Several options, but actually you only need the one that leads you to your destination.Before, you had one option that would take you to your destination.Unless, of course, you got totally lost.Having more options wouldn´t mean you got automatically more enhancements.Sometimes it could mean you got more possibilities to struggle...Therefore, I strongly believe this, the rigol got "auto" as default setting.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 12:00:16 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 25, 2022, 11:40:19 pmIt sounds like : more is less and freedom is slavery

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 12:11:49 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 26, 2022, 12:00:16 amIndeed. And it also sound like 'I have this all-terrain bicycle, the people taking part in the Tour de France cycling race should use it too. I can cycle on it just fine through the forrest so they should just work around the inconveniences of an all-terrain bike when using it for racing on the road'.The reality is: different jobs, need different tools. Even in a restaurant you get different cutlery depending on the type of food you have ordered. Try cutting a steak with a fish knife.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 10:16:12 pm
content: I haven't updated this thread for a while as other matters had overtaken this particular issue. In the end I settled for the Rigol MSO5000. Sadly I missed the Black Friday deals but the scope is currently selling at a reduced price anyway. Weighing up my needs, I just couldn't justify paying an additional 250-300GBP (total cost) for the Siglent SDS2104 Plus.My MSO5000 arrived today and I have barely had enough time to unpack and check a few basic things. Everything with the scope itself so far seems to work as it should. I have yet to run an auto-cal, check networking, external display and other advanced functions such as decoding and math. I won't be able to fully test the LA features until the probe arrives. The screen is a little underwhelming and the brightness control seems to have no effect but it is manageable. A measure of fan noise is present as expected, but I found it to be acceptable not distracting.There are a couple of minor problems though. Of the channel active lights CH 2,3 and 4 are bright enough but CH 1 is rather dim and barely noticeable and remains dim while the channel is enabled during normal operation. The adjustment on the probe I was using seemed not to have any effect although the test square wave seems pretty flat anyway. I haven't tested the remaining three probes yet.If everything is still fine once I complete my tests then hopefully the oscilloscope issue can be laid to rest for a very long time. The two Tek 4xx series analog scopes have now been sold. I have retained only the Philips PM3094 should an analogue scope be required for anything in the future, so everything has worked out as planned. I still have the Rigol 1054Z for now, but may consider selling it once I am happy that everything is working correctly on the MSO5000.Thank you to everyone who contributed advice and viewpoints to the discussion.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 10:34:16 pm
content: QuoteHmm....still a "problem" ?This was known "long time ago" as I´ve got mine (and got no problems).https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2215035/#msg2215035My pics of the compensation(with original and different probes):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2217990/#msg2217990

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 11:15:04 am
content: In my rush yesterday it seems that I didn't set 10x attenuation on the scope. I had also assumed that the probes were set to 10x but the switches on these probes are the opposite way around to those on the DS1054Z and the other probes I have. That is, 10x is in the forward, not rear, position. They are also recessed. That is actually better as they do have a tendency to slip forward to the 1x position sometimes. I re-checked the probe I was using yesterday and all the remaining 3 and they have compensated just fine. No ringing or other issues.After warming up the scope for over 30min I also ran the SelfCal which completed Ok. I also checked LXI and was able to grab screenshots. It also works with Sigrok PulseView and the HDMI output also works. At some point I will do some bandwidth tests.The firmware on this unit is 00.01.03.00.03 and the build is dated 2018. I had a look on the Rigol website and AFAIKT this does seem to be the latest?

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 12:56:00 am
content: The 1X/10X switches on the MSO5000 probes are awful. Black switch on a black probe with the markings being just raised black plastic makes it a real challenge to know how they’re set.

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 07:26:43 pm
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on December 22, 2022, 12:56:00 amWhile I never realized this, you are right! Nothing a little white-out or some other paint won't fix though. Just very lightly put some over those numbers, should be able to only emphasize the digits. Should find me some paint and try it out now!

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 10:06:27 pm
content: Quote from: oliv3r on January 03, 2023, 07:26:43 pmThat's exactly what I did. Except that since my artistic skills are worse than a kindergartner's I have blobs of white on the 10x position (both the switch and the surrounding probe area). I'd post a pic, but there are some things that are too shameful even for me.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 10:25:28 pm
content: I hate switchable probes...But the rigol ones (PVP2350, look at it´s price and you got 4 pcs with the scope..) are clever designed:Embedded switch and the 1:1 position is to switch in opposite directions, you can't accidentally switch to it by slipping your finger - Something that was always the problem with our probes and we had consistently glued all switches back then.

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 02:37:44 pm
content: It really depends on what you want to do with it.I got one of those, plus the logic analyzer, and it's a great tool.But it's not everything I wanted. You see, and this is just out of curiosity and for street credit, I wanted to debug a PCIe 3.0 problem with my PC -- and I can't do that with a 350Mhz scope. What happened, you ask. I own, a PCIe->SATA card. It claims to use as it's chipset the ASM1064 (It's PCIe x4, so I think it's really ASM1166, but I can't tell unless I take the card apart.) When I plug the card into my AMD Zen2 powered PC's PCIe slot, so this is direct to CPU connection on the second x16 slot, the system fails to POST. The BIOS reports an error initializing the main memory, then an error about initializing the chipset, then it reboots. Now, a PCIe card is not main memory, and not at all related to the chipset. However, if I plug the card into the x4 PCIe connector that goes to the chipset, the system boots normally. I returned the CPU, and the MB, multiple times without any change to this. I didn't even know it was the AIC until one day I didn't feel like plugging it in and my PC booted!!!I still need to tell AMD and ASMedia about this. I was holding off hoping that when I got an oscilloscope I could debug it, little did I know how fast these buses differential pairs are.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 09:45:05 pm
content: QuoteOh yes, you can´t:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/busses-serial-links-and-required-scope-bandwidth/msg873252/#msg873252

author: rusoaie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 04:07:34 pm
content: Hello!I see quite a lot of debates about measuring low level audio signals, particularly in the mV ranges using Rigol MSO5000 (or any other noisy scope).For 99% of the audio experiments and repairs I do, the 100mV/div and 1V/div ranges of the MSO5000 are working just fine, but for that single time when I need to see low level signals, there is a workaround / hack that I will share with you.TLDR: Use a balanced, low-noise and high-gain audio preamplifier, and set your scope channel to the corresponding negative attenuation.If you can afford it, the recommended low noise differential preamps to be used in such a situation would be the Stanford SR560 Low-Noise Voltage Preamplifier, the LNA10 Oscilloscope Preamplifier or the Tektronix ADA400A Differential Preamplifier Probe. All these can also work with DC, have calibrated gain ranges, bandwidth limiters, offset adjustment and go up to 1MHz.However, if you are on a budget and doing audio work, you already might have a half-decent differential preamplifier inside your audio interface from Focusrite, Motu, RME, Universal Audio etc. These have low noise, high-gain balanced TRS instrument and XLR microphone inputs sampling at 192kHz and with a linear frequency response up to ~100kHz.Sounds groovy, but show us the proof! Here it is:1. Photo of the contraption setup:Victor's 1kHz oscillator, an additional 1000:1 voltage divider, linear power supplyMotu M4 USB interface powered by a linear power supply (an external power bank will also work just fine)Rigol MSO5000 connected with CH1 directly to the oscillator, and CH2 preamplified through the M4's "IN 2R" microphone/instrument input (using standard 1:1 35Mhz Rigol probes)2. A 200uVrms signal on MOTU M4 using Room Eq Wizard FFT and oscilloscope features (Analog Discovery software also can be used)3. The 200uVrms signal on the scope as a single-shot4. The 200uVrms signal on the scope in run mode5. Nerd bonus: a 128-level-averaged 2uVrms signal on a whooping 5uV/div scale, together with its FFT; to make use of averaging, the signal must be repetitiveRigol MSO5000 scope settings:Restore default settings -> OKTime-base 1ms/divAcquire -> High Res with 10k or 100k memory - this will obliterate the sampling rate to a shameful 1MSa/s and bring the scope bandwidth down to 27kHz - 555kHz (depending on the time base used, for audio work it's usually 500us/div to 2ms/div)Display -> Show Scale and Color Grade -> ONCH1 -> BW Limit 20MCH2 -> BW Limit 20M; 0.005X attenuation - this will map the 500uV/div range to the 100mV/div lower noise range of the scope (corresponding to a 45db or 200x amplification of the preamp)Trigger Menu -> Source: CH2; Type: Edge or Pulse; Noise Reject: On(optional) Measure -> Setting -> Mode -> Precision(thanks to @skander36 for the tips:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-a-rigol-mso5000-overkill-for-a-hobbyist/msg4481143/#msg4481143)As usual in engineering, we have some downsides and limitations of this method:input is AC-coupled, no DC or POWER RAIL MEASUREMENTS possible!measurement bandwidth is limited to ~100kHzpreamp gain accuracy is dodgypreamp output signal phase depends on the signal frequency and is all over the placeA few ending remarks:measurement level was "calibrated" by using the Motu M4 monitor output volume controlthe above measurements were made using a single-ended, unbalanced, ground-referenced signal pathnoise in unbalanced audio signals is manageable above ~2mVrms peak-to-peak (-60dBu); lower signals 'till ~2uVrms peak-to-peak (-120dBu) are the exclusive domain of balanced connections and differential measurementsif you have to measure low-level balanced audio signals, you can try using a 1:1 differential probe or applying the balanced signal at two scope channels and calculating CH2-CH1you can to tweak the noise by using memory depth, time base, trigger, HiRes or averaging, single-shot and channel BW limit settings until you can get this rightyou can also fiddle with 1:1 low bandwidth probes (1Mhz or lower) that might slightly reduce the noiseHappy measurements in the new year to everyone!