Nest: Locked out, no Air Con, and can't use baby monitor - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 05:30:04 am
content: When Google brought Nest in 2014, it made the news here in eevblog.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/wow-just-wow/I was going to tag on to that post, but decided to start a new one instead. News today has some "update" if you want to call it that...News article in FastCompany.com, June 3, 2019: "That major Google outage meant some Nest users couldn’t unlock doors or use the AC"... ... But an especially annoying side effect of Google Cloud’s downtime was that Nest-branded smart home products for some users just failed to work. According to reports from Twitter, many people were unable to use their Nest thermostats, Nest smart locks, and Nest cameras during the downtime. This essentially meant that because of a cloud storage outage, people were prevented from getting inside their homes, using their AC, and monitoring their babies. ... ...Link to article:https://www.fastcompany.com/90358396/that-major-google-outage-meant-some-nest-users-couldnt-unlock-doors-or-use-the-acYou know, I don't particular care for these Internet of Things stuff... But, we now have builders pre-install all apartments with Amazon Alexa before you have even a chance to decide.Article in reclaimthenet.org, June 1, 2019: "Amazon’s Alexa could in your next apartment whether you like it or not"... ... These ‘Alexa-ready’ homes are the result of Amazon's well thought commercial strategy: bypassing consumers' choices, and getting into millions of homes by dealing directly with builders, property managers, and hoteliers. ... ...Link to article:https://reclaimthenet.org/amazon-alexa-preinstalled-apartments/Geez, pretty soon, they would build homes that doesn't even need human residing in it... Fully automated, it turns the lights on and off, AC to perfect temperature, and comes with a robot that is capable of generating the garbage, and noise to annoy neighbors, capable of making artificial poop in the toilet and then flush, so on, fully automated and occupied apartments without the need of any human at all... except to pay the rent.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 06:05:38 am
content: QuoteWires are easily disconnected.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 06:20:32 am
content: The big question is at which point should new technology be feared, and what should be welcomed as not so bad. In life there is no reason why a situation couldn't end up to be a disaster save for the people actively trying to prevent that from happening.This /really/ reminds me of a childhood favourite show Astro Boy (particularly the 2003 incarnation, but in general too), in which a society aided and carried on the arms and backs of smarter and smarter robots moving onto the possibility of them even being sentient now has to deal with effectively a new race of being, with unknown consequences, unknown implications, unknown rights, and unknown threat to humanity. Of course the story always ends on a high note in Astro Boy, but real life isn't a story.I think at the core of /all/ of this, we should, if we engage in it or not, always keep an eye out for two things in our lives. The right to express whatever opinion or feelings one might have about anything and anyone, in almost any possible form, for any reason, and the right to personal privacy. Those two rights, if preserved, are what will allow at least those with the know-how to keep their lives secure and safe.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 07:11:19 am
content: People are surprised that without internet:- theirwireless cloud"""security""" camera didn't work.- their thermostat wasn't controllable from all over the world.- their cloud doorbell suddenly only chimed... without video!I also had to stand up andtouchmy thermostat, like an old person.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 07:18:41 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on June 04, 2019, 07:11:19 amYeah I wouldn't get too mad at Google for this one, if you have critical appliances and tech in your home responsible for keeping it running that requires a constant communications connection (and in some cases even constant power), with no means for working without it, there are few else to blame but the moron who installed it.I don't like IoT except when it's done by hobbyists who know what they are doing, have weekends to spare, and just want to make something neat, and not something expensive that is used to spy on you so long as the servers keep chugging.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 10:42:20 am
content: Quote from: Ampera on June 04, 2019, 07:18:41 amOr maybe even on the design engineers who design such systems with no thought for manual override?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 11:25:04 am
content: It has been my experience that a minimum of 90% of writing software is involved in dealing with situations that are outside the realm of normal operation - everything from range checking to invalid data and mis-matched information and unavailable resources. In other words ... when things go wrong.Not allowing for failure of the infrastructure which Nest relies on - especially for the impact that such failure creates - is shortsighted and unforgivable.

author: DDunfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 12:02:58 pm
content: Having fooled with a bunch of this stuff (my wife loves IOT gadgets - I much less so), I have to say it drives me crazy.I don't understand the idiotic obsession of running *everything* through "the cloud".If you look inside any of these devices, you will usually find an ARM system (often running some variant of Linux) more than powerful enough to run schedules, interact with a UI, perform decisions, control devices etc. (after all, it has to be able to run TCP and encryption), yet it does NOTHING on it's own and only serves at the command of it's master the server.Sometimes even individual outlets, switches and other devices maintain their own TCP connection to an outside server. Any interruption in internet service causes a total outage of sometimes critical systems. It's only a matter of time before your refrigerator runs through the cloud (wouldn't be surprised if some do already).Why not run the basic functions locally, if you really need to check your thermostat while you are shopping (or on the other side of the planet), use the server as a remote access interface.Outages aside, it's only a matter of time before all of this stuff gets gloriously hacked. When that happens, your house will turn against you and there will be nothing you can do about it except replace all the critical controls with manual ones (which you won't be able to get because everyone will be trying to get them) This is an unavoidable inherent risk of the fully centralized approach. Were it implemented as a proper distributed system, all you would have to do is "pull the cable" and it would run fine locally until the servers become secured again. (Or never plug the cable in in the first place which is what I would do).Unrelated but equally disturbing problem: Running everything through servers means that everything you do is tracked. You don't like the idea that someone might collect info on what TV shows you watch?How about how much power you use? What temperature you keep your house? How well you see (how much light do you use)? In which rooms of your house do you spend the most time? What you eat (there are fridges which track your food and "remind you when you are getting low)? How often do you go out (garage door opener) and how long do you usually stay out? How often to you go away and how long do you stay away? When and for how long do you sleep? How about a million other little tidbits of information on things you do on a daily basis without thinking about it?Fundamental rule oflegalized organized crimemodern businesses is "no potential revenue source goes untapped". Some company somewhere WILL buy your information. All the privacy policies and laws in the world won't prevent this because "it's only a problem if you get caught" (see recent data collection scandals). Since everything in encrypted on these server links (or should be!) there will be very little chance that anyone can detect/prove what is being collected. To only way to keep your life private is to keep it off of company servers.But.. as smartphones have already proved, give people a kool toy and they will happily give up all kinds of privacy rights.Dave

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 12:03:46 pm
content: Yes Amyk. Only then with a fancy color LCD and proximity detector.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 12:08:42 pm
content: Alexa send dave a box of widgets to his mailbox

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 12:22:16 pm
content: I am old, then. My touchscreen AC thermostat isn't controlled over wifi or the cloud. I have to <gasp> touch it. No IoT fridge that orders groceries for me. No front door lock that I can open from 4 states away. Does that make me a Luddite?

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 12:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 04, 2019, 05:30:04 amI know of a security system back in the 80's and I have a book for it where each floor had separate control units. It had a central 286 computer running QNX with a rs485 bus for the interface. The controls ran independently on a loop with the configuration of the floors, for pin, card readers and lifts. one of them in a loop is designated the master and another if that fails. If one fails the designated master takes over and I think I was told it bypasses the failed controller.. I am just consulting the book now.30 years down the line and they take away a form of redundancy.Relying on a broadband connection being up just to use a button in your home or for it to operate properly sounds silly.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 12:32:52 pm
content: A Luddite probably not. Just sane person.Last year when buying a schedulable thermostat I was considering building my own Cloudless Smart Thermostat, but that's too much effort. So I settled for a Nest. Maybe I should reconsider.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 01:33:07 pm
content: The home automation systems I've built run fine, just need power, no internet connectivity, no cloud control, no firmware updates for patching security issues every two weeks, manual operation/overwrite if automatic control fails, and easy to fix. The oldest one runs for about 25 or 30 years now. KISS!

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 02:32:32 pm
content: One of the many reasons I hate the idea of cloud based home automation. Zero reason for it to be cloud based. It should have a local web interface and that's it. You can use VPN for remote access. Not only is it more secure but it's also not reliant on a 3rd party. Will the google servers that power that stuff even still be running in 10-20 or 30 years from now? Or will some update break it etc.I just made my own thermostat since I could not find anything on the market that fit my requirements. It's kinda a mess though I want to redesign that whole system so it's more modular.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 02:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 04, 2019, 02:32:32 pmJust like Sonos:eevBLAB #44 - Sonos Deliberately Bricking Products!I know it was supported for a long time but bricking over a battery you can buy and replace is another thing.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 04:10:27 pm
content: We had the local utility offer FREE "Smart" thermostat upgrade to customers 1-2 years ago... The catch, you had to give them your old thermostat. They probably needed it for auditing purposes or for what other reason I'm not sure (I mean it's easily verifiable they have installed them in a home, why would they want to take your old one)??Anyways, I didn't want to give them my original thermotat so I bought the cheapest piece of garbage and stuck that on the wall the day before they came (I wish I could have found a garbage one or bought some cheap thing off eBay but I was pressed for time). They installed an EcoBee (I had a choice of a few, I decided the EcoBee suited me best) and as expected they took away my thermostat even after I begged the installer to let me keep it.Fast forward a few years later, the EcoBee has not really changed ANYTHING in our energy usage patterns at all. My wife still runs the air-conditioner when it is cold outside because the kitchen is getting hot... instead of opening a few windows. We have it set to HOT or COOL and never AUTO, and we have not created any schedule.... People just manually dial it up or down as they see fit (usually I dial it in the direction which will use less energy, while my wife does her best to make our energy bill go up).Other than having a touch-pad that we can play with, and a feature to show us the outside weather forecast, in our hands (AND I ASSUME MOST OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC) this device has not been used anywhere close to it's full potential and simply replaced an otherwise perfectly good "feature" thermostat that was also being under-utilized (we had no schedules set on our original either, which I still have).Fundamentally that is the problem with these things... The energy companies and governments need to spend some budgets (and our hard earned money which we pay to taxes) on these "environmental" initiatives. They used to want to install a thermostat they could remotely take over and adjust your settings on days when power brown-outs were an issue, so they could reduce demand on the grid. Even though you could locally override it, people said no... that initiative went nowhere. A few years later they are trying to push "Smart" thermostats on everyone. Next the insurance companies are going to want to install cameras in your home so they can reduce your premiums (or give them evidence in case something happens to prove it was your fault). Always need to watch out for these hidden agendas.Maybe before they start shoving these smart-things on us, they should figure out why people don't even bother to program their "dumb" stuff.... and keep that 12:00 flashing on their VCR in perpetuity.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 04:33:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 04, 2019, 10:42:20 amOr they thought of it but decided that the owner/usershouldn'tbe allowed to override the system.One thing that comes to mind are the automated "power savers" that allow public officials or a utility company to shut off your AC, water heater, lights, etc when they decide that it's in their best interest. Just think how effective it would be if the power company simply turned off your AC if you forget to pay your bill on time. Or if they turned off your water heater so that you could only shower in cold water!Years ago we had a power utility installed controller that in return for a slight discount of the electric rate, allowed them to turn off our HW heater, heating and AC systems by remote control when the electric system reached peak demand. They were only supposed to turn them off for no more than 15 minutes at a time and no more than 10% of the time. But one summer they began turning it off for over an hour at a stretch. It didn't take me long to rip their controller out and to bypass it! But there again, the number of people that are competent enough to bypass their system is probably less than 1% of the population.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 05:27:07 pm
content: With all the opposition to energy management turning things off, why isn't there more investment in turning things on during off peak hours if doing so saves energy on peak? For example, a dedicated freezer could have a relay added to bypass the thermostat off peak, so that it would run less during peak hours. Or a water heater could be set to a higher temperature off peak and lower temperature on peak.And then there needs to be more investment in thermal storage, the most economical storage technology for HVAC loads.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 06:32:30 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 04, 2019, 02:32:32 pmIf its cloud based we can call it a "service" and drown you in parasite monthly fees.Quote from: edy on June 04, 2019, 04:10:27 pmWe do alot of energy projects and some of these programs are complete jokes. Provide measure X, get paid Y, absolutely no verification of actual savings. The only thing they likely verified is X credits paid = Y old thermostats collected. Personal favorite of mine is adding VFDs to motors, even though the process they may be on requires them to be at full speed. Add a VFD, its running 60hz 24/7/365, they get paid for a solution that consumes more power than when they started.Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 04, 2019, 05:27:07 pmThose systems take up a lot of space and at least here in the US, energy is relatively cheap. They work and properly designed can shift load around quite well. Unless the commercial rates have off/on peak charges that bite, their is little incentive to install them. There are plenty of areas commercial customers only pay for peak demand over a set time window and have no different rates throughout the day. Short term peak avoidance is much easier to deal with vs hours long blocks of time every day.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 07:07:11 pm
content: Quote from: edy on June 04, 2019, 04:10:27 pmThey wanted to take it off the use so you could not install it back. And i recall they even did not hide their intent to remotely control the new device to override trmperature settings.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 07:23:43 pm
content: I've had a Nest Thermostat for almost 5 years now. It has never required an internet connection to work as far as I'm aware. I've also used it for months with no online connection in the past. So, unless they changed this functionality with one of the newer updates, it is not like it needs to be connected to perform the generic functions of all regular thermostats.I honestly might just disconnect mine for good, being able to manually change the temperature only requires a small walk to the unit after all.Edit: Just disconnected the upstairs one from the network. Still fully functional (except the online stuff).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 08:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: edy on June 04, 2019, 04:10:27 pmNot sure why you would expect energy savings when you are not even setting a basic schedule. If you are not able to do this yourself, the installer will usually set one up (ie turn the system off during times no one is around, temperature can be lower at night, etc.).Its also very common in some hotels/apartments to shut the system off once you leave (based on key card), which saves a lot of energy.Quote from: JxR on June 04, 2019, 07:23:43 pmthanks for the dose of reality, as expected, the sky is not falling.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 08:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on June 04, 2019, 06:05:38 amSure, but if they wired the apartment built-in lights without provision for old fashioned manual switches near the doorways to the rooms, then bringing back manual control could involve tearing into the walls to rewire things.If you want to roll your own automation system without depending on the cloud, it's easy enough. Google "Tasmota". It's open source firmware that can be reflashed onto many common wifi enabled switches and other devices. It offers web based control and other options for programming automation. No cloud server needed.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 08:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on June 04, 2019, 07:23:43 pmIt was sensationalist/stupid reporting. The thermostats, doorbells, locks and what not were working, unlike the last years (?) outage where an outage has actually made them lock up. Only the remote control via phones/web didn't work this time.Minor detail but saying that "My AC isn't working!!!" (aka I am about to die from heat!) makes for more clickbait and ad sales than saying "I am too lazy to lift my bum and change the thermostat setting by hand instead of using my phone".That's not to defend Nest/Google, Nest stuff is quite well known for all sorts of high profile issues (and anyone putting their house online like this is insane, IMO), but this outage was blown way out of proportion.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 08:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 04, 2019, 02:32:32 pmWell, I am sure you know the answer already and being too polite to say it - It is cloud base because the manufacturer(s)/provider(s) want to collect and then productize your data.Themore worrisome issuehere is the second article I quoted:that builders are making deals with these "smart home" providers and your apartment/condo/house is embedded with the junk at the get-go. In the USA, most new houses areas are now in a development; a village, sort of. Signing the lease, or a development's by-laws could be the vehicle to "by signing, you agreed to..." For end-user purchases, I am quite sure that this would likely be (or already is) included in the automation product-booklet: "By activating the product, you agreed that..."Companies like Facebook/Google/Amazon already have the power to influence the political processes. As they get more and more powerful, they have the dollars to not just to influence but to control the political processes. They can make deals to legally collect anything and market anything they collect, and likely they are happy to hand over the info to the government as well. With that, comes more and more government control.One can say, privacy is an ancient concept, it is long since gone - live with it and move on. If one accepts that premise, what exactly is the difference between these two scenarios? (1) video of a lady walking in the room, and observed that she first turned on the TV, then the coffee, then check the fridge (ie: product prioritization) verses (2) video of a lady taking a shower. Both are private moments, both are non-pornographic, and both would have buyers willing to pay money for it. Before you say anything, bare in mind during the last administration here in the USA,it was the government's positionthat boys and girls in public schools should be able to use the bath room or changing room of their choice. Schools not allowing that would be against non-discrimination laws/regulations and will be subjected to penalties. So, bare naked body in view of the opposite sex is no big deal to some politicians.Bottom line is, what is the true price for these conveniences?May be some day, those "innovators" of these "wonderful" technologies would be cursed by future people as they eminence the good old days of freedom.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 09:10:36 pm
content: Quote from: DDunfield on June 04, 2019, 12:02:58 pmTo a certain extent blame NAT - though I think it would have happened anyway.Basically most home firewalls are set up to allow arbitrary connectionsoutbut require the user to modify the settings to premit inbound connections. If you add together that fact, plus most users are not tech savvy enough to change the router settings, plus most have been rendered paranoid about inbound stuff, plus there are too many variants of router hardware and firmware to reasonably include instructions - which would, in any case, have to be somehow future proof. Add in CGNAT and non-fixed IP addresses and it's pretty much the only way these things can offer access from off-site/mobile devices - which is what everyone has been brain washed into thinking that they need.The side benefits of capturing registration details, the opportunities to slurp data and being fully in control of designed-in obsolescence are just cherries on the cake (and why it would have been done this way regardless of the technical limitations imposed by IPV4 and NAT).Personally I try to avoid anything which "phones home" somewhere into the cloud.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 01:11:06 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on June 04, 2019, 09:10:36 pmHow would that change with IPv6? Would be a total crap fest if everything was wide open on the internet. There is still going to be a router/firewall between most devices and public internet in all but the most stupid setups.

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 05:17:34 am
content: I remember hearing a story about a family that headed off for a 2 week vacation just before a cold snap. When they came back, the heat was off and they couldn't get the Nest to restart. I understand that it performed an update and then froze. They weren't the only ones because they said the Nest helpline was backed up for days.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 05:53:42 am
content: Quote from: orion242 on June 05, 2019, 01:11:06 amIt won't change anything as far as inbound connections go. I think they are just referring to the reason NAT is required for IPV4, there simply is not enough addresses available for everyone to have a static address. Personally, I do have a static IPV4 address at home, but I still much rather have a service that dials up to a remote server than allow inbound connections to IOT devices. I only have a single server I allow inbound connections on: through single port, on a separate subnet, on a separate VLAN, between two separate firewalls.My IOT devices (very few), also get a similar treatment and are isolated from the rest of the network.

author: DDunfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 08:42:36 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on June 04, 2019, 09:10:36 pmI'm well aware of the difficulty NAT causes for inbound connection, there's also the issue that most customer sites won't have DNS records and will be using non-static IP. In other words, it's hard to find them and if you do, they are likely to move somewhere else.But these are no reason to run "everything" through the cloud. There is no technical reason not to run the "brains" of the system locally, and use a connection to an external server just for remote access.There is in fact several very good technical reasons NOT to:The system would keep working!At one time I did a wind turbine controller supporting remote logging and control via a central server, and it did not require the customer to have anything special for an internet connection, nor did it require him to configure anything in his router. But ... guess what ... when the internet went down, it continued to operate. The turbine didn't shut down, not did it spin out of control. It continued to operate just fine. The local control panel still worked, the big red E-STOP button remained operational.Better response time. Operations between device and local controller are essentially instant. When your switch has to inform a cloud based server that it should turn on your light... not so much!Much less processing and storage is required on the server. This translates to being able to serve more users at less expense.Much less internet traffic. Only remote access requests need be handled, again ability to serve more users at less expense.There are however much more compelling business reasons to make it fully cloud based.If you use the server only to provide remote access, then you can only track what the user does to his home remotely. If you put the brains of the system in the house, and only do communication for out-of-the-house events, then you can only track out-of-the-house events. But... require all of the sensors and switches feed into your server, and you can track *everything* that goes on in the house. The opportunity for data mining is exponentially greater, and it would seem more than makes up for the added cost of providing the services.You might even be able to get away with charging him a few $/month for the "service" (although most people will balk at this long before they have any concern about their personal data being mined).You have much more control over how well it works, can "retire" features in older units, make them operate slower and less reliably, or right-out disable them ... Planned obsolescence is part of every product model, but forced obsolescence works even better! (Not being cloud central doesn't protect you from this as "mandatory" updates can accomplish the same thing, but it's much less obvious if it happens slowly over time rather than right after an update goes out).Dave

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 10:20:05 am
content: This kind of nonsense was memorably nailed by Douglas Adams 40 (gulp) years ago, back when digital watches were nifty things.N.B. this is from the best source, the original radio programme, albeit with visuals that mask the picture in your head...

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 11:53:17 am
content: Quote from: JxR on June 05, 2019, 05:53:42 amI get that. I don't see the logic that NAT / IPv4 is the reason we have this cloud push BS. Its people that are completely ignorant with tech that are the issue. Lets assume IPv6 was everywhere. Who the hell is going to just plop all their devices straight on the internet?? Guessing ISPs are going to supply home gateways with firewall that still prevents inbound connections by default. Not doing so would almost certainly cause a meltdown of the internet with all these shit IoT devices with ancient security flaws, default creids, unpatched PC, etc getting owned constantly.Its takes 5 functioning brain cells, a few hours of time spent learning, and < $20 a year to setup DDNS, buy a domain name and setup a VPN. Secure remote access, done. Most consumers just want to plug this junk in and have it work. That's the problem and why all this crap is moving to cloud when there is little reason to do so. Add in tracking and reoccurring fees these companies can collect, its a match made in heaven.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 01:10:57 pm
content: They actually want to get rid of NAT for ipv6 but I'm not a fan of that. Even if you setup a firewall that can handle pulling multiple IPs from the ISP, you're now at the mercy of your ISP for local IP assignment. Everything gets an external IP. That means every time your ISP changes the IP range that is assigned to you (which can be often on residential connections) you need to completely renumber your network. Yeah you can probably script/automate that but that's still a pain in the butt vs having local IP ranges that never change.I think the best compromise is going to be NPT. It will basically be a 1:1 NAT. That way you keep control of your local IP numbering.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 01:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 05, 2019, 01:10:57 pmI assume the same. Whatever the ISP supplies as the modem/gateway will have this basic feature set and block incoming traffic by default.I have a hard time ever seeing ISP issuing unfiltered publicly accessible IPs to everything within a residence. It would be a meltdown on their networks within days as the miscreants find all the additional junk that just put up the open for business sign. Their support lines would get flooded with end users complaining their compromised junk isn't working, slow, etc. Their peeing partners would be in uproar when this junk starts launching DDOS attacks and such. Internet Armageddon...

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 01:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on June 05, 2019, 11:53:17 amThe biggest reason the distributed model is so popular at the moment is simply cost. Having the heavy computing done externally lowers the cost of the device to the end user. This type of model is hardly new or unique and is how the majority of computing started out. Have a giant mainframe do the majority of computing, with a bunch of dummy terminals that interfaced to it. It is possible in the future that this may change, to where the "mainframe" moves into our own houses and our lower powered devices run from that. Time will tell. Now, moving to a model where each small device essentially has the compute resources to do all its processing internally. I don't see that happening anytime soon.Another reason being that they are guaranteeing a level of service to the end user of the product. The company is making sure the external services that they use to provide data to the IOT device is up and operations. They are facilitating the external communication from other services that may be outside their own networks. A centralized system also helps when it comes to maintenance and administration. Obviously some companies do this much better than others. Some of this will be data collection to assist in improving these services. That collection does not necessarily imply that it is used for nefarious purposes, although it certainly can be used in such a way.Regardless I find all this disdain for the average users being complete morons disturbing. While of course only a few enlightened forum members knows whats up, and how easy proper security is. Computing security is not easy, and is a topic of learning that you could devote your entire life to. After 15 years of professional work in enterprise IT, I hardly know all there is to know on the topic. People specialize because there is honestly too much to learn on any one topic.I'm all for people becoming as knowledgeable as possible, hell I'm back in school at the moment and trying to shift into a new career path because I'm bored with IT. Just because I watch a bunch of Dave's videos hardly makes me now an expert in all things EE. Likewise watching a bunch of videos on IT security won't make users experts on that topic either. Neither are a waste of time though, and both are topics worthy of our time.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 02:30:32 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on June 05, 2019, 01:50:37 pmOn something like a thermostat?!? Its been done standalone for decades now.I have 6x megapixel cameras at home all streaming back to a DVR. The only thing the “cloud” part does is allow for remote access for people that can’t figure it out. It wouldn’t even be possible to stream that amount of traffic over 90%+ of the residential connections. Since I have my own remote access to home, their cloud provides nothing other than tracking and a backdoor into my network as I see it.Turning on the lights needs compute power in the cloud??Outside of speech recognition, I have a hard time thinking of too many cases that require outside help. Even that I assume is nothing that couldn’t be done on a home PC.Quote from: JxR on June 05, 2019, 01:50:37 pmI wouldn’t necessary say morons. Clueless, can’t be bothered, don’t care in general, yep.In the general public, what’s the percentage that have ever applied updates to any of their network connected junk? Single digits I would guess.Quote from: JxR on June 05, 2019, 01:50:37 pmTrue. But just taking the basic measures eliminates a lot of headache. Most these days most put their seat belts on when driving, yet how many keep things updated??

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 02:52:46 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on June 05, 2019, 01:50:37 pmThat's already being done and can be quite cheap with the advent of low cost computing platforms like Raspberry Pi. It's referred to as a "LAN of Things".I recall reading that it's possible to use Tor to do remote access without opening ports. Not sure on the details but to my understanding, it would not put any extra load on the (scarce) exit nodes since both sides are inside the Tor network.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 03:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 05, 2019, 02:52:46 pmYes, I didn't really mean to imply that it is something that is completely new, and cannot be done now. Things like desktop or service virtualization has been around for a while now. Citrix/Vmware View would be a couple of the enterprise level solutions.I haven't used Tor for a while, so I cannot give you an detailed answer on that. There are certainly services you could run on your computer, that would communicate to an external broker. The broker in turn would facilitate external connections to your internal resource. This is pretty common for things like remote desktop type services.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 03:33:59 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on June 05, 2019, 02:30:32 pmI did update the post you responded to to include information I should have in the first place. All I will say to you is if you have the knowledge to run everything internally that you need, awesome! I also do much of my own stuff internally from my completely full 38U server rack. Although, unless you just like doing it for the learning experience, or if you think everyone is out to get you...I pitty your electric bill if its as bad as mine. Personally I'm looking to shut most of my stuff down eventually, its a huge waste of power and makes the room the equipment in basically unusable for anything else due to the heat generation.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 03:40:55 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on June 05, 2019, 01:10:57 pmOf course you can have fixed IPv6 addresses in your LAN. There's the ULA prefix similar to RFC 1918. Changing public prefixes is performed by PD (prefix delegation) and SLAAC. Please read up on IPv6 basics!

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 04:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on June 05, 2019, 03:33:59 pmYou must have a small data center at home. I have a 8U rack with 8 port router, 2x 24 port 250W POE switches, pair of patch panels plus one always on PC that acts as a file server / DVR. Just looking at the PC UPS, its using 2.5kwh / day. Doubt the networking equipment uses more than that. ~5kwh / day @ $0.28/kwh = $1.40 / day in power and another $0.05 / day for domain name and DDNS to run everything I want internally. Only external service required is DDNS. That fails, worst case remote access becomes a minor headache.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 04:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on June 05, 2019, 04:10:43 pmActually I mistyped by mistake, its a 38U. I have a very old post on another forum if you want to see the details. It is not exactly the same as I posted ~4 years ago, but honestly I just don't really feel like going into the details anymore. I'm personally moving away from IT type stuff, and it doesn't hold the interest to me that it once did. Anyways, here is the link:Some of this stuff is over 10 years old...I also attached a snapshot so you know I'm not BSn you.My stupid energy waster cabinet

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 04:47:42 pm
content: Lol, the only thing your missing is the Vertiv CRAC to go with that.My setup very spartan in comparison. Monoprice wall mount 8U rack & patch panels, Ubiquity ER8, ES-24-250Ws, leftover desktop + drobo and a pair of bog standard 1200w APC UPSs.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 04:58:05 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on June 05, 2019, 04:47:42 pmSpartan is smart and the way to go. The problem is honestly that I don't want to dump anymore money into this sort of stuff. But to make it more "spartan" would require me updating the storage to something more compact. HD are much higher density now then when I first built my SAN. Although that unfortunately doesn't mean I can simply move 100TB of data without a serious monetary investment.I've had everything automated for years now, so it is honestly very rare that I have to do anything with the rack day to day. It is also still pretty resistant to any single point of failure. Although honestly unsure why I ever felt that I needed such redundancy in the first place. Because I knew how to build it, and I could I guess...My areas of specialization in IT were: storage, disaster recovery, and virtualization. Probably not hard to see that in my monstrosity that I built.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 05:25:19 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on June 05, 2019, 04:58:05 pmI feel your pain...albeit on a about 1/10th the scale. 4x the capacity of my storage a two years ago now. Was on the drive a month plan for some time.