Electric vehicle uptake in Australia held back by price, infrastructure - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 10:43:54 am
content: http://www.theage.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/electric-vehicle-uptake-in-australia-held-back-by-price-infrastructure-20160610-gpgkn6.htmlQuoteI've kind of suspected the uptake was bad in Australia, but not that bad.Problem is there it no tax breaks for buying them, and due to their cost, many are in the "luxury car tax" bracket.The Super Charger route mentioned in the article is between Sydney and Melbourne. Australia's other capital cities have basically nothing, Adelaide for example has one CHAdeMO fast charger, but only because it's outside Mitsubishi's head office, which used to be an entire car plant.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 12:39:29 pm
content: The dollar figures in that article make no sense, the family went from spending $2500 a year on petrol (for an unspecified distance of travel, probably around 20,000km in an inefficient vehicle) and now plan to spend $245 a year and drive 15,000km. Knowing the Tesla uses at least 15kWh/100km they need to obtain at least 2250kWh @ the current NSW rate of "normal" electricity 22c/kWh is $495, so electricity is either coming from the free supercharger or they're using solar or off peak power (accessing which increases the cost of non-off-peak power). And then this travesty of reporting:Quote from: Lucy Cormack for The AgeThree unconnected measurements, they again add up if its off-peak power at 10c to fill a Tesla 75kWh pack but then you're paying higher rates for overall electricity use.Where the average family is using 16kWh/day and these example vehicle uses would be adding an additional 6kWh/day, using 100% green power you can crunch the numbers:Tariff16kWh household use6kWh off-peak car chargingTotalflat$4$1.5$5.5/daytime of use$4.8$0.6$5.4/daySo if you use off peak power for the car you're taking savings from the other electricity use, the total cost is cheaper but the delta cost of adding a car to the electricity bill remains around the same for these low use examples. Time of use only makes sense for people who can put huge amounts of energy use in the off peak period.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 12:50:06 pm
content: Looks like the government caught up and now provides the Australian consumption figures:https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/Vehicle/ViewMatchingVariants?vehicleDisplayId=27550Tesla coming in with 18.5kWh/100km to 19.8kWh/100km and decidedly average CO2 emissions (check where your "green" power is sourced from before you claim its zero CO2 emission).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 01:00:19 pm
content: When my old bomb died last year I desperately wanted an electric car (as did SWMBO).We test drove several, but the only one that was affordable was a (fairly impractical) 2nd hand Mitsubishi iMiev at about $15kNext closest was a Nissan LEAF at $35k or a 2nd hand Holden Volt at about the same.We eventually resigned ourselves to the fact it wasn't possible and got a used Toyoto Corolla.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 01:04:47 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on June 12, 2016, 10:43:54 amPeople ask me why I don't get a Telsa. The reason is it costs AU$125k

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2016, 01:32:44 pm
content: Same here in South Africa, the best selling hybrid was the now discontinued Lexus LS350H, which was around 20% premium over the regular LS350, but a higher interior spec though, which did help the sales a little. Other than a handful of Prius that are uncommon, there are almost no EV on the roads, as they are very expensive as full import vehicles with full duties and levies applied to them.If govt simply dropped them to zero rate on import duties and Ad Valorum they would be the most popular sellers in a year, as they would be around 40% cheaper than other comparable vehicles.If I could afford one i wuld buy one, mydaily driving cycle fits the EV use perfectly, along with around 60% of the driver profile, as most drive under 100km in the daily drive cycle. Of course having them would cause crippling blackouts as the grid would not have enough reserve to cope with the peak load, and most people would have to plug them in at night to charge at low load times.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 12:30:17 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 12, 2016, 01:15:35 pmThe larger battery pack Tesla cars should be able to do Sydney-Melbourne with a single longer stop, which meets most peoples general idea of the journey. As you say having the chargers available for all that want them will be a challenge once more are sold.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 04:12:02 am
content: The Teslas are superb vehicles. I sat in a Model X recently, trying to prove to myself that I would never fit and could stop pining for something that didn't really make sense economically, and that I couldn't afford. Instead, I found the best vehicle I have found for a very tall person. At 204 cm, in the Model X I could still see traffic signals without craning my neck down, could see things above eye level and didn't feel like I was forced into a tiny box.Now the price is the only defense I have. Even here in the US, with tax incentives it is horribly expensive. The domain of people with more money than they know what to do with. I guess I will get one if I win a lottery.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 05:06:16 am
content: Similar here in NZ. The price of EVs is just too high by the time they get here to be worthwhile generally speaking. Nissan were dumping unsold AU market LEAFs here for a while I understand but even at a real cut-price there were few takers, they have now pulled the LEAF out of the market here totally, no longer even interested in trying to sell it.Renault is going to bring their offerings, but again the price is realistically prohibitive. Especially for a country where the vast majority of people drive used jap imports.I wish we had a VSP system like France and it's territories, I think the Netherlands has a similar - Voiture Sans Permis - small ("micro", 1 or 2 seat) cars, limited speed, reduced requirements... small electric runabout vehicles with 1 or 2 seats that can do 50k's top speed and have a range of maybe 50ks make sense in a city, but by the time you add all the "normal car" requirements the cost benefit ratio just goes out the window (not to mention the power weight ratio).I'd love me a Renault Twizy. But I hate to think what the cost will be if Renault really does start selling it here.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 05:15:34 am
content: It's too bad they are no longer selling the Holden Volt in Australia.I love my Volt. While not purely electric (it's a PHEV) - it is driven electric only for 90+% of my driving and there's no "range anxiety" My current lifetime mpg is 234.My wife is in need of a new car. We really need an AWD SUV type car for kids and since we get snow in the winter (I have a 4wd Toyota truck for those days). Right now there isn't one sold in the USA.The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV is the bestselling PHEV in Europe for several years now. They're supposed to start selling it here this fall. We'll see.

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 08:00:07 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 13, 2016, 12:30:17 amThey have that range if you drive very carefully with airconditioning off.With airconditioning in the australian summer and driving at the speedlimit you probably get around 250km out of a charge.But you'd probably have to stop sooner, because the charging stations are not too comon. You might have 50km left in the battery but the next station is 75km away for example.Greetings

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 08:19:05 am
content: I drive a Prius. To be honest, I have no idea why people would buy a non hybrid car. My next one is either going to be a plug in hybrid or an electric car. The only reason would be that they were kinda ugly, but even that is not true anymore.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 09:00:01 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 13, 2016, 08:19:05 amBecause the economics still don't make sense for the bloated hybrids we have available on the Australian market (very few of them), even the Prius C is a $3000 price increase over the IC only option which would have a payback of 100,000km assuming they have the same running costs.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 09:08:49 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 13, 2016, 09:00:01 amIt is also the convenience of a hybrid. If the payback is your only concern, mind as well drive a 25 year old hatchback that was abandoned at the side of the road. It is more reliable (well, at least these toyotas), it is automatic, absolutely silent (you can hear the AC running). It takes a lot less effort to drive them.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2016, 11:50:13 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 13, 2016, 09:08:49 amI've driven Prius cars, they have substantial road noise just as any other comparable vehicle. The Prius C is built on the same platform as the "regular" Corolla so they are essentially the same car to drive other than the silly hybrid synergy CVT masquerading as a geared transmission (it could accelerate smoothly all the way through). Convenience in this country is a vehicle that can travel further on a tank of fuel, I've topped out at 1900km for a tank in a production car which if you follow world records should give you some idea of my skill and understanding of these fields.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 01:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on June 13, 2016, 11:50:13 amI dont know about that, they dont sell the C in the EU. The HSD means no transmission, so it is not really a CVT, since it is missing the parts. I dont know about australia also, I have 12 fuel station where I live half a dozen where I work, and I can drive through 6 different countries from where I live with a single tank. 1000Km range, with the 40L tank. Plenty.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 10:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 14, 2016, 01:38:02 pmThe hint is in the title of this topic, Australia. Even when there are petrol station "nearby" they may only trade during business hours, or not have a full range of fuels available at them, the attached sign is common throughout Australia even through the densely populated east coast.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 10:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 14, 2016, 01:38:02 pmIt is a continuously variable transmission in that the petrol engine can run at a fixed speed, while the wheels are turned at any speed. They added "gears" and jerks in the acceleration to make it feel like a normal car when it could drive completely smoothly.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2016, 10:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 14, 2016, 01:38:02 pmHow far have you actually driven on a single tank? Rather than the theoretical range (or that which can be achieved by running it empty in a record setting run).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2016, 01:23:53 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 14, 2016, 11:55:39 pmHere is Australia overlaid onto Europe, covering at least 500 million people on the continental land mass, population of Australia 23 million (less than 1/20th).

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2016, 02:36:49 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 14, 2016, 01:38:02 pmHere's what possible in Europe with a Tesla Electric car.The €5 is simply the small charge the motel charged him for using their charger overnight.Oslo to London for €5 | Fully ChargedSame is possible in Australia, but only if you drive from Sydney to Melbourne (or reverse) along the main highway.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2016, 06:58:43 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 14, 2016, 10:34:48 pmPlease dont tell me how my car works. Especially if you have no idea.http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/Understanding/ContinuouslyVariableTransmission.htm"CVTs have been around for a while and at first it doesn't seem that Toyota has broken new ground here. This, however, is entirely false, because the ECVT in the Prius works in a completely different manner from any other CVT put into a production car. It is so different, that calling it a CVT is misleading."

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2016, 04:54:57 pm
content: Australia is big where everything is out to kill you. A hybrid would fare much better than an all electric car also because you dont have to charge it if you have to drive a lot. While an electric car can have very low carbon footprint especially in countries where the entire electricity supply is from renewable the environmental impact of making an electric car is bigger than your standard fuel car. Some people will say that electric cars are easier to maintain as they have less parts and break down less but have you seen how much people charge just to repair car electricals and electronics compared to a mechanical repair? If low maintenance is what you're after go get a diesel as they would cost less than electric and have no spark plugs. A full mechanical diesel would be immune to EMP.Different fuel type cars drive differently. Mixing electric with a fuel type can be fun if you can use both engines at the same time.The other thing with a fuel car is if you have a very long journey you can stock up on fuel to refuel yourself. It would be equally very expensive to stock up on more batteries with an electric car not to mention the weight significantly reducing the range.Europe is very different from Australia, what works in one country wont work in another.

author: roffvald
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 01:26:06 pm
content: That's something Norway has done right, I just purchased a Toyota Yaris Hybrid, i get about 30% discount on road tax, and reduced interest on the loan.Full Electric cars get no road tax, no VAT on purchase, allowed to use the "bus" lane, free toll roads, and free communal parking. (some of these will be ended in 2018 and 2020)

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 03:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: roffvald on June 19, 2016, 01:26:06 pmRight is a matter of point of view. Here in the US road construction and maintenance is largely funded by taxes on fuel. As fuel economy has increased funds per vehicle mile has decreased dramatically. While wear per vehicle mile is somewhat lower due to the lighter weight of fuel efficient vehicles, the reduction in wear is in no way comparable to the reduction in funding. The result is deteriorating roadways.Now various political units are experimenting with usage fees, taxes per mile driven. It is a fair approach, but another demonstration that nothing is free. If electric vehicles don't make economic sense without major tax incentives they just aren't long term viable. (The same is true for hydrocarbon powered vehicles. Deferring the cost of emissions took a while to catch up to them, but it has happened and will continue to happen.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2016, 09:53:06 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 19, 2016, 03:44:10 pmA truck has a magnitude higher wear on the road, than a passenger car. And electric cars make sense with tax incentives. Because a bunch of countries signed a pact that they are going to reduce pollution till 20xx. AFAIK the USA was not signing it, because your politicians are blind folded idiots, like ours, but here green is trendy.So a country needs to reduce its pollution levels, which is easily achievable with electric cars. In fact I cannot wait the day when they put seriously high taxes on diesel.Quote from: System Error Message on June 16, 2016, 04:54:57 pmThat is quite clear. And I dont think anyone wants to have an electric car as their only car, because range, and charge time.Quote from: System Error Message on June 16, 2016, 04:54:57 pmIt is less moving parts. Moving parts break with movement. The current downsized turbocharged hatchbacks sold in Europe break down after 5 years. Usually something very close to the engine. Manufacturers dont care, becuase everyone leases their car for 5 year. I dare you: buy a 5 year old VW and drive 10.000Km without a breakdown.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2016, 09:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 20, 2016, 09:53:06 amAnd at least in the US, trucks pay much higher taxes. In addition to the fuel taxes they pay over the road taxes based on vehicle weight and in some cases mileage.What you are saying about electric cars is that they make sense because of CO2 control, and are justified based on satisfying treaty requirements. So as I said, doing it right is a point of view. Might even make objective sense if two other things are true. One, there is no other mechanism control CO2 emission (like carbon taxes, etc). and two, the source of electric charge is either carbon neutral or better yet, non-CO2 emitting. Both may be true, but are not often a criteria for an EV tax credit. In Norway it is more likely to be true than other places due to the large amount of hydro and nuclear power.