Petrol vs Electric - Mercedes SLS AMG Battle - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 04:29:47 am
content: the conclusion is interesting

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 05:05:33 am
content: If you want to watch a review without the idiot:

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 05:49:15 pm
content: Same conclusion, "too expensive", "not enough range", "too limited", "too heavy""smaller and lighter batteries still a decade away"

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 07:06:26 pm
content: Who cares, for my driving cycle it will work perfectly. Even my friend who is an estate agent will be happy with the battery life as well, as he can always do a charge at work for an hour or two during the day as well. Only issue will be the temptation to beat the snot out of the boy racers in their hotted up cars at the lights. And not being able to go into shopping centras as you will always find some ahole who will dent your car as they open the door. I want cameras to cover the entire car to record that.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 07:29:43 pm
content: Quote from: staxquad on March 24, 2014, 05:49:15 pmSure, if you want to focus on the negative only. On the positive side a very nice technology, with the potential to end up in everyday cars. Until then early adopters can have a lot of fun with it.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 07:58:55 pm
content: I was at a track day last week and someone brought along a BMW i3. It did ok, but the owner took it home after four laps as it was eating up the battery so quickly and returned in his M3, which did much better.They are starting to become practical, but for me there just isn't enough range yet. Tomorrow i'll drive about 300 miles, twice what the i3 is capable of.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 01:05:44 am
content: I thought you Brits already converted to metric ?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 01:09:49 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 25, 2014, 01:05:44 amThat's just what they want us to think.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 01:18:24 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 25, 2014, 01:05:44 amThey make us use calculators for sure. Car odometers read miles, but petrol pumps dispense fuel in litres. So if you want to work out your fuel consumption, whether in miles per gallon, or in litres/100 km, you are going to have to do some unit conversions. Convert to litres to gallons, or convert miles to km.I think the UK government secretly wants everyone to become engineers(Converting between units of measure is lesson 1 in any engineering course.)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 01:22:22 am
content: Quote from: IanB on March 25, 2014, 01:18:24 am, ... no wonder you Brits look sostressfulunhappy all the time.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2014, 12:10:12 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 24, 2014, 05:05:33 ama review with a Boring Puppy instead of a Clown.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2014, 01:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 24, 2014, 05:05:33 amTop Gear is an entertainment show based around cars. Their main goal is to make people laugh. The presentations of cars are not meant to be objective reviews.Chris Harris of /Drive does things more seriously. He also interviews the makers of the cars and gives you insight on how things work.One thing that irritates me in this particular video is Chris' incapability to understand the concept of negative torque. How hard is it to grasp that the inner wheels are braking?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2014, 04:59:27 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on March 26, 2014, 01:52:41 pmReally? Is it? Then why don't the idiot and his two brain-dead sidekicks manage to entertain?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2014, 05:07:44 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 26, 2014, 04:59:27 pmHave you seen how much that show is sold round the world for? International sales revenues for it are huge. It works because it's three intelligent men behaving stupidly.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2014, 06:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on March 26, 2014, 05:07:44 pmYou want to rethink that argument. Justin Bieber has 3+ billion youtube views. That still doesn't make him entertaining in any way.QuoteThen it apparently works for those who are into glorifying stupidity.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2014, 07:48:41 pm
content: It might be a problem with your sense of humour.I find Top Gear funny to watch while dining or when I'm updating freaking linux.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2014, 08:38:30 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 26, 2014, 06:20:16 pmAre you jealous that they have fun at work, and bring a great deal of fun to others, whilst you spend your working days bored?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 07:34:11 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 26, 2014, 06:20:16 pmI'm stupid enough to think it's funny sometimes. Every 2 or 3 months I see a part of an episode, I like it.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 12:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 27, 2014, 11:39:54 amWho ever said that they are objective? Or do you think other humans are so stupid they don't know that.And by fair, relyable and objective, did you compare that to other programs on TV?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 12:19:59 pm
content: It's electric so they should have sent one to Dave to take it apart!

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 02:17:23 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 27, 2014, 11:39:54 amThe 8 year warranty did not cover loss of battery capacity. The warranty in 2013 is 5 years or 60k miles and warrants that the battery (or replacement if required) will have at least 70% of original capacity. You can also buy an ongoing battery warranty for $100/month.Leaf battery wear is a substantial cost, especially if you don't like having up to 30% less of the original range or live somewhere hot.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 05:46:00 pm
content: The Leaf capacity loss is terrible especially in hot weather, pack is only passively air cooled and not while the car is idle. Calendar loss is high for the types of cell Nissan use.Tesla have an 8yr warranty but there's no set limit on degradation - only "failure" - an unspecified limit. Realistically though there are several owners with over 40,000 miles on their cars still getting 255+ miles out of a rated 265 miles. The batteries will decay about 30% over 200,000 miles; from then on the degradation is a lot less steep.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 07:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 27, 2014, 04:14:33 pmPaid for with some of the $40,000 price difference no doubt.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 08:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on March 27, 2014, 07:58:23 pmA larger battery comes with a "free warranty" - on average it'll last more cycles and more miles.Doubling pack size approximately quadruples typical lifetime.Tesla's pack is over 3x the size of the Leaf's 24kWh, so it's lifespan should be more than 9x the Leaf's, all other factors being constant.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 06:10:22 am
content: "When pushed to its full potential, the electric SLS won’t make it two laps around the 12.9-mile Nürburgring Nordschleife."http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-mercedes-benz-sls-amg-electric-drive-first-drive-review

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 06:32:52 am
content: Just curious,how often you guys change vehicle?my friend in England and USA said every 5 year? is it right? so 8 year even 4 year battery is not a problem right?

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 07:18:00 am
content: Quote from: han on March 28, 2014, 06:32:52 amAbnormally short lived batteries might be a problem if you'd prefer a decent resale value.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 08:07:12 am
content: Quote from: han on March 28, 2014, 06:32:52 amI have owned my current car for 10 years and I'm still very happy with it.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 09:14:53 am
content: For my everyday car then I tend to buy ex-company cars with 100,000 miles already on them and drive them until they die, typically around 200,000 miles on the clock.Life expectancy of cars is now above 15 years, I'd hate to see that regress in the name of the environment.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 09:28:08 am
content: Quote from: IanB on March 28, 2014, 08:07:12 amIs the maintenance cost high on there?My friend say, he change car every 5 year because the cost of maintenance is higher then change to new car (5 year free service)

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 09:30:15 am
content: My cars were built in 1974, 1984 and 1968. The 1968 one has just turned 10 years in my possession, the others I've had longer. However I couldn't say that the vehicles have lasted this long. There is hardly an original mechanical part on any of them.Currently building up a 5.7L LS1 for the 1974 one (Datsun 260Z coupe) to make 600hp, but to start with I am lining up a custom camshaft grind to make just 500hp. I'll just see how manageable that will be on the track first. 750hp to a whopping ~2000kg for than Merc could hardly be any fun in comparison. Could it ever fell like you are driving it if there are no gears to shift?

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 09:33:29 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 28, 2014, 09:25:27 amWhich market leaders have 750hp? Driven sedately it probably goes as far as a Tesla.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 09:45:28 am
content: Quote from: han on March 28, 2014, 09:28:08 amThe cost of routine maintenance is vastly less than the cost of purchasing a new car. Even with "free" servicing you have to pay for the replacement cost of wearable parts like oil, brake pads and tires.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 09:49:06 am
content: Quote from: zapta on March 28, 2014, 06:10:22 amBut what a great one and half round that would beGreat car but let's face it, it really needs a Mr. Fusion.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 02:42:52 pm
content: Quote from: han on March 28, 2014, 06:32:52 amScrapping a car because it is not worth replacing the battery every 5 years isn't very eco friendly is it - especially when the tossers buying electric and hybrids are mostly doing it to flaunt their green credentials. My current car is 18 years old and is just about at the point where money spent keeping it running would be better spent on something newer.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 02:49:04 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 28, 2014, 09:28:24 amAnd a 15 year old Pious doesn't have an electric mode or plug in charger or Li batteries. Batteries last much longer when you don't use them, except Li which chemically degrades just sitting there, especially at higher temperatures.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2014, 11:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2014, 08:50:37 pmAnd maybe you will need a new driver's license for trucks.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 12:36:02 am
content: The battery pack of "my" hybrid civic lost almost all its capacity after 4 years, 3000€ if out of warranty, and without the batteries its a gas guzzler.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 12:37:55 am
content: I'm always amazed hybrid batteries manage to last beyond 50,000 miles. If they're used as frequently as they should, they should experience thousands of cycles. I guess they keep them in a sweet spot of SOC to preserve lifetime - like 60 to 80% - whilst not getting much more than a small fraction of their capacity out.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 01:38:25 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 31, 2014, 12:37:55 amIf designed and used properly the battery in a regular hybrid should not experience much change in its state of charge. Much like a bypass capacitor in an electronic circuit, the battery in a hybrid is there to smooth out the peaks and troughs in the load on the engine, allowing the engine to run at its efficient sweet spot without having to speed up and slow down too much. This also means the battery does not need to be all that big, since the engine is doing all the work and the battery is only a buffer.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 01:47:54 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 31, 2014, 12:37:55 amThat's true of all batteries. If you unplug your smartphone at 80% or so and recharge it when it goes down to 40% or so, you'll find that the battery will degrade much less than it would in "normal use". Lenovo laptops even allow you to set a charge level to stop charging at in order to slow battery aging if you normally don't use most of the battery.The optimum charge range is somewhere in the middle for most batteries, the main exception being lead acid which likes to stay as close to full charge as possible. Nickel based batteries with multiple series cells should also be charged to full every once in a while to rebalance it, same goes for some lithium batteries.BTW, the battery in a plain hybrid actually does little for highway MPG. It's the aerodynamics and engine design that matter in that case. Some new high MPG cars are getting much of the hybrid highway MPG.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 10:36:07 am
content: The Tesla and the Electric SLS are great "advanced concept" type cars, they do have serious issues including range, perhaps their biggest attribute is making "green" cars sexy, ultimately a good thing.A really good turbo diesel will give a Prius a real challenge on performance, range, fuel economy and price.I think in a few years the hybrids/electrics will be getting substantially better, I am prepared to wait.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 11:51:20 am
content: The problem is range/time for recharge. If you can recharge in 15 minutes a range of 300km would be a very good practical car. It is good practice to stop each 2 hrs of driving anyway.There are also studies about replacing the entire battery of the car instead of charging, making the battery a kind of loan item instead of a buy/own item. You can (if you are european) compare it with the blue french Butagaz system, you never own the can and you pay for the gaz. This should then at least be standardized per continent which makes it troublesome.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 04:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 28, 2014, 09:25:27 amI heard somewhere that in Formula E they change cars mid race because they run out of charge. Is it so?Will be interesting to require them to charge the same car, this will bring some innovation.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 04:29:18 pm
content: It is true. They also refuel on Formula 1 races, too.However, the one thing I don't like is the lack of innovation between teams -- they could have a Mercedes Formula-E car, a Renault, a Tesla (), etc. But they all drive the same car - it's a driver's championship not necessarily an engineering championship.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 11:19:42 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 31, 2014, 03:32:51 pmThis is the bit people always gloss over with electric vehicles. Let's look at the numbers:The model S with the 265 mile range has a typical energy consumption of 38 kWh per 100 miles, making a full charge about 100 kWh. If this is going to be charged in 50 minutes you need a power feed delivering 120 kW. Put another way, you need a 500 amp circuit at 240 V. This is the output of an entire pole transformer that would normally feed several houses. Once you get to this power level it is more efficient to tap the power directly from the distribution voltage at about 10 kV or so.So nobody is going to have an inexpensive charging solution in their home that can do this.What instead about public charging stations? I don't know what the typical throughput of a gas station is, but let's assume 60 cars an hour. At 100 kWh per car, that means the charging station needs a 6 MW power feed to charge those 60 cars in a single hour. That 6 MW is the average power demand of a few thousand homes.It's not hard to see that the present electricity generation and distribution capacity cannot handle this scenario in any kind of scalable way. It will be decades if not a century before all electric vehicles can be anything other than a minority of vehicles on the road.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 12:14:10 am
content: Quote from: IanB on March 31, 2014, 11:19:42 pmThe model S comes with a 60 kWh or 85 kWh battery. No chance to get 100 kWh in/out. The 265 miles were measured with a 85 kWh battery using some standard range/economy test. They certainly didn't run the battery completely dry in the test, so it ain't 85 kWh charge.As for household connections, in developed countries in Europe a three-phase, 240/400V, 63 A connection to the home can be found, and they are planning to use that for 240/400V, 32 A chargers at home - you can't deprive the rest of the house of all current. 240/400V 32A can deliver about 22 kW. Your model S would need a bit less than four hours for 85 kWh. However, since you won't run a battery completely dry we are talking about maybe two or three hours charging if you drove a long way. Not too bad.For faster charging one plan here is to tap into DC power networks used by tramways. 1 kV and lots of amps. That will likely first happen in parking lots near train stations, not at home.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 12:27:00 am
content: Hmm, how many HP is adequate?lower HP car can save power and live (no speed driving anymore)And when using lower capacity battery there is an option to quickly replace battery then recharge it internal...the car maker can sell it with PV solar panel kit, so you can have one in home and one in office..

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 10:37:13 am
content: Quote from: IanB on March 31, 2014, 11:19:42 pmIn the UK a typical residential connection is 100A single phase (23 kW), 100A 3-phase (69 kW) is common for farms, small industrial units, etc and is available domestically although fairly unusual (people with lathes and other large machine tools tend to get this). 400A 3-phase (276 kW) is normal for a large industrial unit, if a fast-food place wanted a supply like that in their car park they would have no problems.Note that usual practice here is to have fewer and larger transformers and a higher distribution voltage. Pole mounted transformers are only used in rural areas, a suburban or urban area might have 1-2 MW transformers feeding a few hundred homes each from a 11 or 33 kV supply.Quote from: IanB on March 31, 2014, 11:19:42 pmYes it's a lot of power, no it's not insurmountable. I work in a small company of a few hundred employees in a very rural area and we have a 3 MW supply. 6 MW is a pretty typical medium-sized transformer over here as might be found feeding an industrial estate or a hospital, or perhaps supplying a dense residential area in a city.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 11:32:45 am
content: Imagine the grid load problems, everyone has just driven their Tesla home from work and wants a quick boost before they head out for dinner.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 11:57:46 am
content: Quote from: VK5RC on April 01, 2014, 11:32:45 amThat's only a US problem, in Europe 90% of households eat at home

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 12:00:03 pm
content: Quote from: han on April 01, 2014, 12:27:00 amThat is possibly one of the worst things you can say, low power cars are are a drag to use, you want to pass some one, floor it and pray that the road keeps straight, have you ever rode a car with 50 or 60hp?Good luck keeping it under 7l/100km, you are always revving the shit out of that tiny engine, even the civic hybrid only has some wimpy 90hp, at 70km/h with cruise control, yes it can do 4.2l/100, 120km/h straight high-way bump that to 6.2-6.4, typical high-way with slopes everywhere(welcolme to Portugal sir) bump that again to 6.9-7.5l/100.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 12:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: senso on April 01, 2014, 12:00:03 pmDon't use sport car standardI have been try drive this... 50 PS (37 kW).. can do 110KM/Hhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daihatsu_CharadeFirst time i visit US, is total shock.. they Oversize everything.From the food size to the car size...60HP car is capable 120KM/H in straight wayif everybody use USA standard. This world will end soon ...

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 12:28:16 pm
content: My everyday car has 140 horses and I'd not like much less, however there's a difference between the requirements for pootling round town or the rush hour commute when you're mostly travelling slowly and my normal long daytime drives.My other car has about 550BHP/tonne and is a hoot to drive, however my kidneys fall out if I drive it more than 200 miles in a day.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 12:43:56 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on April 01, 2014, 12:28:16 pm140 HP, is it 4000cc engine?in here only rich man and corrupt politician use it.70% use 1000 - 1300cc engine..and no...not much flat land in here,i use 1300 cc car(not mine) and 170KM/h is piece a cake

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 02:22:23 pm
content: Quote from: han on April 01, 2014, 12:08:54 pmStandard American engineering: If it doesn't work don't make it better, make it bigger.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 11:27:31 pm
content: Let's be honest - at some stage oil based products will become so scarce/expensive that they will need to be constrained to plastics based products.Conversely we also have to recognize that the use of current battery technology is not as practical as some like to believe; particularly considering overall recharging efficiency losses and the lack of infrastructure to enable practical recharging in the so called "first world" never mind everywhere else.We will need to use and develop other forms of power which will still, probably, result in electricity generation. If someone discovers something different then that would be Nobel Prize material.It won't be me but!!!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 05:17:26 am
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on April 01, 2014, 11:27:31 pmSee, this is one thing I don't understand. There are supposed to be a bunch of engineers*here on the forum. The whole issues of electric cars is a bunch of engineering challenges. Yet these engineers shit their pants and wet their shoos about the thought of large scale electric driving and come up with all sorts of strange excuses and even stranger math examples.WTF is wrong with these engineers?*Let's don't go into the discussion about self-styled "engineers" who think all it takes to be an engineer is to call yourself one and think you don't need no training.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 05:49:32 am
content: " WTF is wrong with these engineers?"EV car lack of pride...it have kid's car stigma on it...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 07:01:44 am
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on April 01, 2014, 11:27:31 pmIn the eighties they told us that we would run out of oil in the begin of this century. In the mean while everywhere on earth also on more difficult to reach places a lot and i mean a lot more oil has been found. I am not sure what the current estimate is when we run out of oil and that ofcourse also depends largely on the upcoming economies that are using more and more each day but the doomsday scenario has been postponed multiple times. Still one day....

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 07:04:35 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on April 02, 2014, 07:01:44 amIt's been going on since the 1890s with coal, there has never been more than 40 years of fossil fuels left for the last 120 years/

author: KarlosVandango
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 07:48:10 am
content: It would last even longer if China stopped wasting the Earth's resources in making total mass-produced crap! Just look at Dave's tear-down of the worst camcorder in the world.... Complete waste of materials.... <sigh> But they wouldn't make it unless there was a demand for it!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 08:09:45 am
content: Quote from: KarlosVandango on April 02, 2014, 07:48:10 amStop buying that crap!

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 06:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on April 02, 2014, 05:17:26 amThe issue with electric cars is not a bunch of engineering challenges.Theissue with electric cars is batteries are an expensive low density and slow to replenish form of energy storage. You need physicists and chemists to come up with better batteries and my prediction is the future holds nothing more than small incremental improvements.The other issue is the technically illiterate promoting them as being far more green and environmentally friendly than they are which leads to stupid people buying them and politicians subsidizing them.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 07:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on April 02, 2014, 06:04:30 pmJust another set of excuses. Batteries are already good enough for many applications. Getting the most out of them is an engineering challenge. Getting then charged properly and fast is an engineering challenge. Creating the infrastructure to charge them is an engineering challenge. Optimizing the environment friendliness is an engineering challenge.But what do the engineers here claiming and argue instead? It is all just a big conspiracy. Conspiracy my ass.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 08:25:08 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on April 02, 2014, 07:20:52 pmAre you a manager?QuoteBut that does not mean they are already suitable for cars to drive 500 km on one charge without trailer stuffed with additional batteries. The current battery density (Ah/weight+size) prevents a normal looking and safe car with a too large radius on battery only. If you want the extra radius use a hybrid car.QuoteYup but engineers can not break the law of physics, we can not create energy from nothing. And to create more Ah per m3is a chemistry/physics challenge to invent new chemical combinations that deliver new battery generations with higher energy density.The current generation of batteries are just not very well suited for a task like a multi function total replacement of a car that runs on fuel since fuel has a much much higher energy density then batteries. I think that a car like the Mercedes SLS or Tesla cars are cutting edge technology with the current batterie generation.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 10:39:13 pm
content: If you don't drive it like you stole it (i.e. like average UK driver ~50-60mph on UK roads) you can get 450km out of a Model S battery.If only I had £60k lying around...

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 04:20:14 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 05, 2014, 10:39:13 pmIf you don't need to drive something like you stole it you can get 1700km out of a diesel Ford Mondeo fuel tank. And like Clarkson said the price difference would buy enough diesel to drive to the moon and most of the way back.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 09:53:59 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 05, 2014, 10:39:13 pmIf I had a spare £60k lying around for a car, then it would be spent on a Diablo, not a battery pack.

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2014, 02:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 31, 2014, 04:29:18 pmNot any more.They stopped refueling after the 2009 season. In an effort to be 'green', F1 has implemented 'ERS' - energy recovery systems. The tech looks pretty interesting, even if it does make the cars sound like fart-can equipped ricers.http://www.gizmag.com/formula-one-new-hybrid-tech/30560/

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 06:21:26 pm
content: QuoteTopGear is generally about three 10-year old boys in adult bodies squabbling and playing practical jokes on each other. Oh and occasionally they mess about with cars.This is not to say that it isn't entertaining and the global syndication has certainly made the three of them pretty wealthy.But I doubt Clarkson is a moron. He does have an ability to open his mouth and insert his foot but I don't think he's totally stupid - I suspect most of his TG personality is just an act.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 06:05:36 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 07, 2014, 09:06:43 amSo buy a diesel Audi or Beemer if you want to spend more money and need a badge.Quote from: mojo-chan on April 07, 2014, 09:06:43 amNo one needs 1700km range it comes for free because it isn't worth fitting a smaller tank on the more economical versions. The tank costs almost nothing, takes little space and adds little weight, it also doesn't wear out and recharges in seconds - everything a Tesla battery does not. I mentioned the 1700km as an example of just how shit batteries are compared to chemical fuels.As for charging in 50 minutes - where? there are no superchargers in the UK, by the end of 2014 there probably won't be more than 3. Hope they install plenty of 'pumps' because being 3rd in the queue means the guy in the diesel will have had his break and driven another 100 miles before you set off again.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 06:54:27 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on April 07, 2014, 06:21:26 pmI'd say, earning $20.000.000 for a season of tv playing around with the world's most exclusive sportscars is at the border of genius. At least it earns more respect then bankers who rob their salary from their customers

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 07:44:26 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 07, 2014, 09:06:43 amWhat I find amusing is legions of militant "engineers" shouting their convictions that EV's are no good, do not work in real world situations, are too expensive, have low energy density, are inferior to diesels, and blah blah blah.Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people go out every day and buy those very cars.If there was one car that was the "best", then there would only be one car for sale. If people bought what was, on paper, "the best" (as defined by some engineer somewhere), then there would only be a single vehicle sold in every class, because everyone would buy that vehicle.It illustrates the stubborn refusal of many technical types to accept reality, even when it is happening before their very eyes. Like the engineer who designed the titanic hull arguing that the ship is unsinkable, as he descends into the water and drowns.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 09:22:16 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 08, 2014, 07:44:26 amI love to buy an electric car when it is feasible and it is not yet. Same with solarpanels, the time to earn back the investment is still (in our country where the sun does not shine as much as in the sahara) 10 years and then nothing has to break down. Knowing as an EE that solarinverters do break down and that batteries also break down and damages do happen, I am not investing.When the panels have better efficiency and are cheaper I probably will switch.There are green people that fantasize about a clean world without polution that buy an electric car not knowing that the batterypacks inside that car have a worse polution index than if they would have bought an fuel car. It is still a question of calculating and personal interest, it has nothing to do with if you are an engineer or not.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 09:54:15 am
content: Electric cars (with present technology) are not all that green because electricity generation largely still involves buring hydrocarbons.One thing which does bother me about solar panels is that everyone seems to believe that they have no environmental impact - which seems to be a questionable assumption at best.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 02:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 08, 2014, 07:44:26 amThe Leaf is the most popular EV and has sold 100k worldwide in total, Chevrolet have sold about 70k Volts/Amperas in total, Tesla expect to sell 35k Ss in 2014. Americans bought nearly 800k Ford F series pick trucks and more than 700k Ford Focus compacts just in 2012.Someone trying to use EV sales to support claiming they are economical and work in the real world - that I find amusing.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 03:21:13 pm
content: .

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 03:36:00 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on April 08, 2014, 02:07:47 pmWhat? You mean $7,000 cars sell more than $35,000 cars? What nonsense is this? And vehicles practical for the task at hand are bought by people needing them? Crazy talk!I'm pretty sure the econobox cars are going to be petrol/diesel for a very long time; it's hard to get around the low cost of a metal tank of dino juice. Batteries will only break into that market with an entirely new technology.Tesla aren't aiming anywhere near there, neither are Nissan, or GM. Nissan put out a survey recently asking if people would consider buying a $35,000 Leaf-type vehicle which did 150 real-world miles. Tesla have Model E / BlueStar planned which should be $30,000 before incentives (so potentially around $20,000 with incentives) and give 200 real-world miles from a ~65kWh pack, if the gigafactory goes ahead (who knows -- but Panasonic have discussed investment regardless.)

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 04:36:16 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 08, 2014, 03:36:00 pmI was responding to the claim that "Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people go out every day and buy those very cars."Pure EVs have probably been bought by less than two hundred thousand people in total and I would wager that environmental willy waving was a more important consideration than practicality and economy for 2/3rds of them.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 05:13:39 pm
content: No green technology is that green at the end of the day, all these alternative power systems require large quantities of carbon in manufacture producing large volumes of CO2. Whether it's steel or silicon the raw material comes as an oxide and needs reducing, with wind turbines you need far more steel per watt of produced power than other systems such as nuclear or gas.According to what I have just read in the new scientist better batteries will come from the military as half of what a soldier carries in his kit is now batteries which might explain the indicates of the present lithium batteries to explode.If you want to be really green it's on yer bike! shanks pony is even greener as that does not require tarmac roads to be built.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 05:22:23 pm
content: Exactly, no car is truly green, only less damaging than any other particular car. I think Norway has recently banned car manufacturers from saying their cars are green.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 05:30:11 pm
content: Until the world population issue is addressed then tinkering round the edges won't make enough difference. Once all those slaving away in the One Hung Lo factories can afford a car then we're truly stuffed.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 07:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on April 08, 2014, 05:30:11 pmActually China is one of the few countries that really take action now, there is a numerux fixus on new car registrations in Bejing, and it was time with that smog there.The worst country is now India, in their capital people that never ever smoked are diagnosed with lungcancer form of seen in 30 year chainsmoking only because of the finedust that the cars emit.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 10:09:17 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on April 08, 2014, 09:22:16 amYou misunderstand/misrepresent the psychology of sales. People do not buy a vehicle because it is the best at a given task or the best in all categories. They buy what they like. There are various features that consumers find appealing, which is why there are often dozens of cars which all compete against one another for the consumers money. If consumers purchased based on binary tests in single categories, then there would only be one car in any given category, and no other vehicle would supplant it unless it beat the original in a comparative test. That doesn't happen because that's not how people buy cars - yet it is often falsely represented as the way consumer will buy EV's. Nonsense. Consumers will buy EV's just like they have always bought cars. People do not buy EV's because they will get some kind of ROI in a specific time anymore than people buy a new car because they have carefully calculated that the cost of repairs of an older vehicle will be greater than the payment on a new vehicle. It's just now how the real world works.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 10:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on April 08, 2014, 02:07:47 pmThis is a logically fallacious argument - named "argument by demanding impossible perfection". By your reasoning, every vehicle that is not an F-series pickup is a failure, which obviously is not true.And since nobody has stated that EV sales means they are more economical, that is another logically fallacious argument known as a straw man.If the facts were on your side, there would be no reason to resort to such arguments to state your point.The simple fact is that consumers are spending billions on electric drive vehicles. Tesla has a market cap of over $26 billion. That is real money that was created on the design and sale of a totally new type of vehicle that is fully electric. Every single major automotive manufacturer is sinking billions into EV's - including GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW and all the rest. They all either have EV's on the market or have vehicles coming to the market shortly. Market share of electric drive vehicles is increasing rapidly, and only appears set to continue that trend.What are reasonable conclusions to draw from these data points?1) Clearly, the car manufacturers (the ones who are spending their own money on this subject) disagree with the Internet experts who claim that EV's don't work2) Clearly, the marketplace disagrees with the Internet experts also, since consumers are buying these cars3) Clearly, the finance world also disagrees with the Internet experts as well, since $26 billion (around half of it's USA competitors value) has been assigned as the value of Tesla, which is a big P/E premium vs. other manufacturers4) Clearly, EV's are being purchased and the market sees they are the future. Ergo, when someone claims they do not work, or are not acceptable products because they do not fit <insert criteria here>, that person is wrong. It's not really a matter of opinion - TSLA = $26 billion says everything that needs to be said.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 03:14:53 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 08, 2014, 10:24:38 pmNot by my reasoning, by your consistent straw man misinterpretation of arguments to find something you can argue against.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 08, 2014, 07:44:26 amis what you said. You are the one that started using sales as an indication of cars being any good. I said only around 200k pure EVs have been sold ever so your statement that hundreds of thousands buy them daily is just crap.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 07:32:48 am
content: Quote from: Rufus.Sorry Rufus - did you have a source for the 200k figure. The only one I can find quickly is just over 46k pure EV sales in the US in 2013 (with not quite 24k in 2011 and 2012 combined) so it might not even be that high.Even if it is 200k then that represents perhaps 0.1% of the cars in the US so they've got a way to go yet.Another thing which bothers me about EVs is the loss of government revenue. Well, that in itself doesn't bother meWhat bothers me is that the cost of driving an EVwillrise once sales hit significant numbers.Looking at the "fuel consumption" of EV's seems to show a range of 30-50kWh/100ml -- so at UK electricity prices 100 miles would cost perhaps £5, 5% of which goes to the exchequer. My not-that-fuel-efficient Celica would cost me a bit over £20 to do the 100 miles some 70% of which goes to the government.Parliament will want to claw that loss back so EVs in future will not look so good on running cost. Of course the chancellor could put the tax back elsewhere so EVs still "look good" but he will want it back.And, as with many people, although my daily commute is well within an EV's range weekend journey's aren't so I'd wind up needing two cars.When EVs have a 400 mile range, refuel in 10 minutes and have a battery which is good for 150k miles I'll buy one.http://evobsession.com/electric-car-sales-increased-228-88-2013/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_United_Stateshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 01:37:52 pm
content: $30,000 BlueStar is still an expensive car - Musk has publicly stated it should have performance & luxury equivalent to BMW 5 series.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 01:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on April 09, 2014, 07:32:48 amI found 100k total sales for the Leaf, about 35k for Tesla, mistakenly (because it is a hybrid) added 70k volt/ampera sales. There must be a few thousands of obscure EVs sold so I thought 200k was a reasonable/generous estimate regardless.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2014, 03:13:08 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 09, 2014, 01:37:52 pm35K$. zero cost on maintenance apart from tires. free electricity at the supercharger. 8 year end to end warranty.beat that ...There are currently 19000 people in line (that have paid ) to buy the upcoming model X ( still a year away from production) Not a single other car manufacturer has such a waiting list.If Tesla pulls off the 35K$ , 300+ mile on a charge car it will be game over for everybody else.I easily get 300+ miles on a charge of my Tesla S 85, even when only charging the battery to 235. Never want a dinosaur fueled car again.I drove rental for a day while mine was getting the armor plating installed.Car makers are insane. the rental had 43 buttons, knobs and levers... i counted them. 7 settings on the wipers , and not a single speed was right when it started raining. 3 rotary dials, each with 7 settings, and two pushbuttons for the airco. Thats 7x7x7x2x2 or 1372 combinations to find the right cabin temperature. What drunken insane lunatic designed that control mechanism?Get out of the car, open door - beep-. handbrake. try again -beep- . ah shift in park. try again -beep- lights are still on. sighfinally get away only to come back 5 minutes later because you forgot to lock the damn thing.Every time it switched from battery to gas engine ( this was a hyundai sonata hybrid . ) there is vibration, rattling and a jolt when it engages the clutch. stepping on the gas pedal does not make it go faster.. it doesnt drive... it oozes forward. you may as well be stepping on a squeacky toy. releasing the throttel engages the regeneration.. which barely slows the car down. it regenerates barely a few kilowatt.My Tesla dumps 60 Kilowatts in the battery if i pull back my foot. It decelerates fast .Stomp on the throttle and 360+kilowatts is pumped in the motor. You bet that thing moves.If it rains the wipers go on , speed is automatic. When it's dark or you enter a tunnel the headlights go on automatically. The gps knows you are entering a tunnel.if i get home the car opens the gate for me (the gps knows i am in my geofence) operating it is limited to approaching it, open the door, sit down, click forward, reverse , steer and control throttle. when done click park , get out and walk away. Navigation , entertainment and phone is all under voice control. there's no remote, no key , no handbrake , not even a button to turn on the headlights. all automatic. I can listen to the amp hour being streamed live through the intenret and browse eevblog on the big center console.Other cars are dinosaurs using 100 year old control mechanisms. they should go extinct. the faster the better.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 12:16:56 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on April 09, 2014, 03:14:53 amI don't think you understand what a straw man argument is. It is misrepresenting what was stated - or in other words, arguing against something that was never said.What I stated was that the fact that hundreds of thousands of people are buying electric drive vehicles is proof positive that those claiming they do not work, are wrong. Because it is exactly that. You are arguing that something isn't happening that we can all see with our own eyes - is happening.The other stuff I mentioned - like the billions being sunk into EV's by the OEM's and the fact that every single one of them are coming out with EV's, and the value the finance world has placed on TSLA just drives the point home. The people who, for whatever reason, stubbornly refuse to accept that EV's "work" and are here to stay are just pissing in the wind in light of the billions that consumers and manufacturers have thrown at EV's.QuoteYou are counting USA sales of two particular vehicles. Even excluding hybrids using batteries and sticking with vehicles that plug in, hundreds of thousands are buying them every day. Obviously I am not saying sales are in hundreds of thousands each day - but sales are hundreds of thousands (and increasing) and occurring every day. Sales are certainly well below the best selling gas vehicle, but that's no more a surprise than plasma TV's being drastically outsold by 22" color tube TV's when plasma TV's were new.There is no shortage of short sighted folks who are quick to proclaim change as "crap", whether it's my aunt who refuses to get a cell phone, or people who think <insert any product here> isn't made like it used to be.Meanwhile, the market moves on. TSLA is worth $26 billion dollars. Everyone agrees - EV's work and are here to stay, regardless of what luddites think.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 03:20:29 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 10, 2014, 12:16:56 amObviously? So when you said "Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people go out every day and buy those very cars." you actually meant probably less two hundred thousand people have bought those very cars since time began and coincidentally they also go out every day to walk the dog or something?Pure EV sales are a pimple, Tesla is going to sell 35k Ss this year? Toyota sells nearly 28k cars a day.And no I don't count hybrids. They run on chemical fuel and batteries being terribly crap doesn't much effect their utility - just their price.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 05:52:31 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on April 10, 2014, 03:20:29 amConsidering that no car sells even close to hundreds of thousands of units per day, it should be obvious that my statement means that every day people are buying these cars to the tune of a cumulative hundreds of thousands of units.But you're grasping at straws at this point. The industry does not sub-divide their vehicles to the extent you want to in the quest to claim that one of those small divisions represents a small enough number to be considered non-viable.At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. TSLA is valued by the market at $26 billion. Elon Musk, it's CEO, has earned himself a fortune of ~$10 billion (depending on current TSLA share price, which has gone up about 500% since a year ago). Clearly the market believes that EV's are viable. So do the hundreds of thousands of folks who have purchased EV's. So do all the major car manufacturers, who are all (every single one) putting billions into EV's or already selling EV's.Of course, all those industry experts have nowhere near the knowledge and experience of the Internet expertsbut presumably Elon can cry about that from the top of his mountainous pile of ca$h

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 10:41:29 am
content: The Tesla is no average man's car, way too expensive and still a niche market compared to the huge numbers of conventional automobiles being sold. If you discuss that you don't know where you are talking about. Porsches 911's are also sold a lot but also a niche market compared to the cars that really sells in big numbers.Next argument about company stock prices, that says very little about succes or failure on the coming years as the internetbubbles from the 90's learned us.I am absolutely not an electric car hater and do hope that someday they are priced at the same level and can compete with a normal car but that will take yet some years and better batteries with higher energy density, that's all.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 12:08:17 pm
content: The Tesla and Electric SLS have done more for the electric car (hybrid or not) than the Prius; they have made it appealing. The cash boost will allow some good engineering to continue and I am confident the 'trickle down' effect will occur.Currently I am sticking with a good diesel that seats 5 in comfort with serious high end safety, 500NM torque, (only 180kW) but 1200+km on a 70L tank of 'rough Dino juice' (more if I think about it) that I can fill up in 5minutes but I look forward to a silent electric version!

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 12:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 10, 2014, 05:52:31 amOk next time you talk crap I will just ignore it because you obviously didn't mean it.Quote from: Corporate666 on April 10, 2014, 05:52:31 amSpeculating investors are not a market. In the dot com bubble did the same people believe that companies like Broadcast.com, GeoCities, and Lycos were viable? Bought for a combined $22 billion two no longer exist, the third was sold at 2% of its purchase price.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2014, 02:13:26 pm
content: Where EVs and hybrids really excel is getting excellent MPG(e) in slow traffic. On the highway, there's much less of an efficiency advantage, sometimes none when comparing a hybrid to its non hybrid version.What is for sure is that engine technology would improve in order to try to stay relevant. The actual production cost difference between a regular engine and an Atkinson cycle engine is almost nothing (just a slightly different intake camshaft and some firmware changes) but Atkinson cycle engines are mostly restricted to hybrids for marketing purposes. Require all new (non commercial) vehicles to get 30 MPG or more and there would definitely be plenty of Atkinson cycle engines (and other tricks previously reserved for hybrids) in use.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2014, 03:09:33 am
content: I test drove a Model S a few weeks ago - it is a superbly built automobile. Performance that reminds me of the C5 Corvette I bought back in '98 (a little bit faster than the Corvette actually), but the comfort is astonishing. Much better than my wife's new BMW 550 (which is not exactly a hooptie either).So now I have one on order, and it will be ready at the end of May / early June. I went for a performance-tuned 85 kWh with pretty much all of the options. I'm very much looking forward to getting it. I work from home 90% of the time, with a commute of only 20 miles on those days where I actually have to drive in to the office (and there is a charging station there). Other than that, I rarely travel more than 100 miles in any direction. Slow charging stations are everywhere out here... in two months the Supercharger downtown will be completed, and by the fall I'll be able to reach Miami or New York without ever being out of range of one. And by next summer I'll be able to reach my family in New Orleans and Houston as well (if I wanted to drive that far). But even with the occasional holiday travel, I average only 6 to 8 thousand miles per year.For me, an EV makes total sense. I wanted a high-performance car but didn't want the maintenance headache or compromised comfort that comes with typical sportscars.Also (nobody has mentioned it), but they offer a buyback guarantee of 50% of the original purchase price of the car at the three year mark - if you take advantage of their financing (at ~ 2.5% currently). Assuming a 20% down payment and 6-year loan, that essentially insures that you won't be "under water" even if the car value drops like a rock. Effectively, it functions like a lease in that regard (if you choose to exercise the guarantee). Except that you also get to collect the tax credit - $12,500 here in GA - which is something you cannot do with a standard lease contract.Oh - and like all full EV's, it qualifies for an AFV tag in Georgia, which lets you use the carpool lane. This can be a huge timesaver for people who have to regularly deal with Atlanta rush hour.So yeah, EV's are still a bit expensive. The people who are buying them are not looking to save money - they are buying them because they like them and have the means to purchase them. If they didn't get the expensive EV they would have bought an equally expensive gas-guzzling luxury or exotic. But those early adopters are also what drive the costs down and makes the tech affordable for more people. If you remember, there was a time when basic cellphones were a luxury item. And personal computers. And gasoline powered cars.By the way, if you are skeptical about it then just go sign up for test drive. In the US there are showrooms (not dealerships - Tesla doesn't use the "standard" sales model) in many states. They schedule test drives all the time, and they don't really care if you are prepared to actually move forward with a purchase or not - the philosophy of the company is to promote electric vehicle adoption. These are very fun cars to drive - no reason to at least learn about what you are ridiculing first-hand.