Aquarium chiller/compressor/fan won’t turn off/ chills and chills and chills... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 12:58:49 am
content: Hi guys I own an aquarium chiller that I’m using for my tank right now. It is an ecoplus 1/10 hp model from 2013. It is an older model that is not sold anymore and is different from the model you would see on Amazon or elsewhere today. It has worked for quite some time as I bought it from a friend but recently has started to chill well past my set temperature. I’ve done a little bit of testing With the knowledge that I have concerning the relays. There are three LED lights on the control board. Power, chilling, and heater. The heater is an external 2prong outlet located on the back for you to use as an outlet for an external heater that would be dropped into the tank as a failsafe should the temperature be, lower than your set temp. With the relays this is what I have found.So I just went back to it after letting the temperature warm up a bit. I set it to 66 as the temperature was at 68. Just to make a point to you the fan was blowing as soon as I plugged it in. But as the green Chiller light was flashing, as soon as it went solid I definitely heard and felt the relay click. Pole 1 is receiving NO power and 2, 3 and 4 all are. When the heater one clicked, it was poles 1, 2, & 4. so...I just did it again and physically held the probes from the voltmeter on j9 and Pole 1 and as the green light was flashing as soon as it went solid it went straight to zero, I also then turn my set temp up to 69 and immediately that pole 1 received power again and as the red light was flashing once it went solid I heard the click and pole 3 went straight down to zero. So I'm assuming all of my relays are working. It has to be something else?

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 01:07:35 am
content: These poles that I'm referring to are as follows. One and two are the coil of one of the relays and three and four are of the other. This picture shows the relay on the PCB. The solder points closest to the edge of the board are the zenon diodes. J9 is jumper9(DC GND)But I'm not super educated on how this stuff works and I wanted to make sure that from what I've posted here that my relays are working correctly? And if so what else could be keeping my compressor and fan on all the time, even from the second I plug it in, causing my chiller to drop way down past 60 degrees if I left it long enough.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 10:18:48 am
content: Few points:- more board pictures- more reverse eng- more measurement, do you have a scope?99% people here don't have an ecoplus 1/10 hp model from 2013 so it´s difficoult to help.

author: Armadillo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 10:42:50 am
content: Trace the fan wiring to the relay. Of all you know, it may not be relay driven.A photo of the Top and underside of the pcb would be more informative.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 02:47:27 pm
content: Well the controller is 2 boards connected to each other. But you want pics of the solder tracings? So in between them. I'll just take a Boat Load of pics here in a bit for you guys.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 03:33:35 pm
content: Here's what I have.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 03:40:06 pm
content: More

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 03:41:33 pm
content: And...

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 03:46:47 pm
content: And..

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 03:50:44 pm
content: Few more.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 03:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on December 01, 2017, 10:18:48 amWhat kind of Scope are you referring to. I have a fairly nice multimeter.

author: Armadillo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 04:13:19 pm
content: Nearly you get the picture right, but notThe underside of this photo, perpendicularly would be helpful.Edit: We can see live, neutral going in there...... the 2 board are sought of reverse piggy-back mounted, one is the microprocessor board, the other is the relay board...

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 04:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: Armadillo on December 01, 2017, 04:13:19 pmthat's this pic

author: Armadillo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 04:57:02 pm
content: Fortunately my English is not horrible.Underside andPerpendicularNo worries, others maybe can visualize from your pics..hahahaha LOL.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 08:07:35 pm
content: Do any of you happen to have some suggestions on what to be checking that could be causing my compressor and fan to be on all the time?

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2017, 10:54:25 pm
content: Quote from: Armadillo on December 01, 2017, 04:57:02 pmAre you asking for me to unsolder the boards apart and take a picture from straight on so you can see the traces?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 12:11:03 am
content: Having zero knowledge of that particular unit, things I'd check:- Cracked solder joints on either board- Shorted transistor that drives the compressor relay- Bad electrolytic capacitors- Bad temperature sensor

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 12:50:41 am
content: HOw do I test the capacitor?

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 01:41:43 am
content: NVm, i figured out how lol. Just out the probes on and see....capacitors are fine. The bigger one shows a bit more ohms and the smaller one lower.

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 04:13:18 am
content: So, is the relay for the heater turning on at the same time as the chiller?I would be checking the temperature probe. It is most likely a 10k NTC. It should read 10k at about 21°C. Look for a chart for the resistance vs temperature for a 10k NTC and make sure the probe is working at least near to what the charts say.Check for bad solder joints.Try warming the boards up with a hair dryer or hot air gun and see if it suddenly behaves.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 10:26:51 am
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 02, 2017, 04:13:18 ami pulled the temp probe and tested it. It’s good. 10k at room temp, then rapidly climbs after a dunk into ice water.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 10:28:35 am
content: And no the relays click on independently of each other per heating or cooling light becoming illuminated. Remember though, he heating relay simply powers a 2 prong outlet in the back of the unit for an external, separate, heating element that would be placed into the tank as a failsafe to warm the water JUST in case it becomes lower than the set temp. What it SHOULD be doing is reaching the set temp via cooling and then basically shutting off completely leaving nothing but the power light illuminated until the water temp becomes 2* higher than the set temp which at that point, the machine should start up again and start cooling back down to the set temp. But my compressor and fan are on all the time. From the moment I plug it in and stays on and continues to chill the water as much as I’ll let it run for. I’ve seen it go down to 59* with a set temp of 70* before.

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 11:18:29 am
content: Ok, so when the water(or temp probe) becomes cold, does the heater relay switch on at all?If not then the problem is somewhere in the temp sense circuit.It would be really helpful if you were able to separte the 2 pcb's and take a good photo of the solder sides. In my opinion, it would be well worth your effort to go over all the solder joints and add some fresh solder.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 03:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 02, 2017, 11:18:29 amYes, the temp probe always displays the correct temp and the heater relay only triggers when the temp of the water it’s reading is below whatever the set temp has been set at.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 03:52:15 pm
content: I just tested my transistors with my multimeter set at 2000k ohms. When i put the probes, in either polarity on the Base and Emitter, I get a reading. This means they’re bad? @james_s @SMdude

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2017, 03:55:10 pm
content: I can’t tell you my appreciation for your help also, btw.

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 01:51:02 am
content: Quote from: Airwalk1616 on December 02, 2017, 03:52:15 pmGiven that the relays dont click until the light goes solid, I would say that the transistors are fine as these switch the relays??If they were bad, either the relay would turn on immitately when power was applied, or the relay would not turn on at all.What controls the fan?Does the compressor only turn on once the relay clicks?

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 06:42:06 am
content: No, the fan and compressor both, run together constantly from the moment it’s plugged in. The chiller light, once it realizes the set temp is LOWER than the actual temp, is supposed to blink for about 2-3 mins, once it becomes solid, is THEN supposed to kick on the fan and compressor. But that’s not the case. I would think the relay controls them but I don’t think it’s actually how it works. Not sure what actually controls them?This is the diagram for the NEWER model but I assume they’re similar?

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 07:03:58 am
content: Ok,One of those relays is what is meant to switch the compressor and fan on and off.It is possible that the contacts in the relay are stuck together, however, normally when this happens, the relay doesn't click.With everything off and disconnected, do you get continuity from the compressor/fan terminal to the AC input active terminal?So, while the compressor is currently running and the water is colder than the turn off temperature, what is the LED doing?

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 09:59:34 am
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 03, 2017, 07:03:58 amI’m not too sure where to test to find out if there’s continuity between the terminal and ac input terminal? Maybe you could scan my pics and help me do that?As far as the LeD goes, if the temp is above the set temp, once I plug it in, the chilling led (led3) starts to blink like I said then becomes solid at which time the relay clicks. It will chill and chill until it hits the set temp. At this point the machine should basically shut off completely, fan and all with nothing but the yellow power light (Led1) being solidly illuminated which it is all the time as per normal.But of course, this isn’t the case. The fan and compressor stay on and keep chilling further at which point the temperature goes 1* lower than the set target temp, (power light is all that’s on when the set temp is reached) which starts the 3min cycle of blinking of the heater light (led2). Once this has happened and it becomes solid, the relay clicks and the 2 prong outlet in the back of the unit receives power. Like I said, it’s for an EXTERNAL HEATER (which is what is written on the front panel next to the light) that would be placed in the tank at all times, to warm the water back to a higher temperature as a safe guard.

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 11:02:22 am
content: To me it looks like the red wire is the one that supplies active to the compressor and fan and the black wire is live from the ac mains.Disconnect the red wire and test for continuity between that terminal and the terminal that the black wire was on(assuming that the black wire is ac live)It is really hard to tell without looking at the bottom side of the relay pcb.I think it is worth replacing the relay for the chiller as it sounds like everything else is doing what it is meant to be doing.Ps, disclaimer, I claim no responsibility for you doing something that is over your head and causing yourself, others or property harm.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 11:49:22 am
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 03, 2017, 11:02:22 amanother forum I have this question posted on, a guy suggests that I switch the blue and red wires terminals and to see if when I plug it in the compressor and fan are still on. He said that would be a good way to find out if the relays really the culprit."Another easy test would be to swap the red and blue wires. If the cooler doesn't start running right off when plugged back in, the cooler circuit was stuck on. The heater plug should now be hot at all times, and the cooler will only turn on if the temperature is too low, but at least it proves the culprit is just the relay. "Do you think I should try this? And when you say to test the black and red Wires, are you talking about the wires right on the board where they all are in a row with the little soft plastic covers? Because yes, for some stupid reasons the RED wire is cool and the BLUE wire is hot. BLACK is like you said, I’m pretty sure, the hot line in.

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 12:29:01 pm
content: At first glance the wires looked like they are attahed with spade terminals, but I think that they might actually be directly soldered down. If they are spades, then it is easy.Yes, swapping red and blue should do it.And yes, the relays are there soley for switching the high voltage/current to the cooler and heater. 1 relay for the cooler, the other for the heater.If you don't use a heater, you could get away with just swapping the heater relay in place of the cooler relay.It would be much easier to give good advise if we had a photo of the full bottom side of the relay pcb. You are going to have to separate them anyway, so just do it!

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 03:07:03 pm
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 03, 2017, 12:29:01 pmLOL I am just scared if I remove the boards and separate them, I won’t be able to put them back together. There are four separate solder joints holding each side together. How would I heat them all up at once to remove them. Would I just have to wipe off each joint has its in a liquid state? I’m not sure if I have the correct Solder To re-apply them when I do put them back together. But with switching the relay, the same problem would persist because the Chiller would only work if the temperature was lower than the set temperature right? I’m pretty sure they’re spade though.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 03:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 03, 2017, 12:29:01 pm. So I switch them and it seems to have worked. The fan did not turn on when I plugged it in BUT once the temperature rose above my set temperature, the chiller llight started blinking and just went solid, the fan did NOT come on. Hm? The outlet in the back IS Receiving power though. So it’s a relay problem. But why isn’t my fan and compressor turning ON now?:edit:I turned up my temperature to make the heater light blink and once it went solid, BOOOOOOOOM BABY. Fan and compressor on. So I need a new chiller relay it is obviously stuck closed. And just like I thought, it will only chill now when the temperature is COLDER than the set temp so to engage the heater relay. Outlet in the back receiving power still. So we’re finally FINALLY to a light at the end of the tunnel.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 04:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: Airwalk1616 on December 01, 2017, 12:58:49 amso @SMdude based on this post, can you determine which relay is heater and which is cool? I’m pretty sure that the one with the 2 marks on it(in the pic and labeled in post as poles 1&2) is it..?

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 04:11:26 pm
content: Also, Is it possible for me to remove the relay, take off the cover, un stick the contact and give it a good sanding to fix it or do I gotta buy a new one?

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2017, 04:52:06 pm
content: Where the hell do I get this replacement relay? :/HRS4H-S-DC12V 10a 250V 50hz COS.01 10A 120v 10a 24V

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2017, 01:26:45 am
content: Google HRS4H-S-DC12VThey are on farnell, ebay and many other sources.I forbid you from disassembling the relay and cleaning it!!! Just put a new one in and be done with it.Depending on your skill at soldering, it might be worth your while to get the relay and take it to someone who can easily do the job.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2017, 05:01:05 am
content: Hahaha ok my friend, I’ve ordered a new pair of them from eBay. I just have to figure out which relay is the cooling one now......

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2017, 12:45:55 pm
content: I know which one it is, but I'm not going to tell you!You should be able to figure it out once you separate the 2 boards..

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2017, 03:40:47 pm
content: DUUUUUDE not cool! Lol I guess it’ll be good for me to try to figure it out...You can seriously know from just these pics? I thought I’d have to follow the traces to know. But like I said, I’m reeeeally not very knowledgeable with this micro stuff. I understand electricity and how it works but not on a small level like this with micro components... I hope I can figure out which one is the chilling relay to remove and replace it.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2017, 04:17:04 pm
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 04, 2017, 12:45:55 pmLet me guess.... it’s the one with the two marker markings on it because it’s connected straight to the Compressor wire(black) and the heater circuit doesn’t need to use that as it just powers an outlet is all? It’s so stupid that HOT is Blue and COOL is Red...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2017, 11:41:14 pm
content: You can crack it open and free the stuck contacts to get you by for a while, but once damaged they will quickly weld themselves again so it's no substitute for ordering a new relay.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2017, 01:44:55 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 04, 2017, 11:41:14 pmright on, thanks. I ordered a couple of new ones today so I'll probably just hold off until they're here. But I'm still not sure exactly which is which....

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2017, 01:46:31 am
content: Quote from: Airwalk1616 on December 04, 2017, 04:17:04 pmWell for a start, the way I read the board is, red wire is cool which powers the compressor and fan, blue wire goes to the heating power outlet, the black labeled Com, to me looks like it is "common" and comes direct from the power input lead? and then ACN, which to mee looks to be ac neutral, also from the power input lead.But without seeing the full pics and or having the unit sitting in front of me, these are just guesses. You need to trace what is connected to where.Please do that and post a picture or diagram of it.I don't know that unsticking the relay is a good thing to do, when contacts get bad like that, they can easily burn and cause a fire. If you don't need/use the heater, you could always remove the heater relay and fit it in the cooling position.As for which relay is which, when you separate the boards and have traced what goes to where, you will know which relay is for cool.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2017, 01:59:28 am
content: @SMdude it's the one WITHOUT the markings. Labeled on the board as D1. The one that's closest to the thermistor connection on the board. :)e I get it now. I think. ...

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2017, 02:32:15 am
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 05, 2017, 01:46:31 amI have a question for you. I understand how this relay circuitry works a little bit better now. But my question is where the solder joint that is very thick is connected to both commons on the relays, when power is applied to them and the coil is energized to pull the normally open arms to closed, how does each relay get turned on independently when the commons are connected?

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2017, 08:56:04 am
content: Err, well, the common terminal of the relay is where the power goes in and when the relay turns on, the common terminal in the relay is connected to the NO(normally open) terminal where the power goes out.The coil on the relay is completely isolated from the common, NO and NC terminals.One side of the relay coil is connected to either gnd, 0v or V+(voltage from the output of the transformer), and the other side connected to the transistor or mosfet, which in turn is connected to the opposite polarity as the other coil terminal. Then the microcontroller sends out a voltage(0v or 5v) to turn the transistor/mosfet on or off, which in turn switches power/gnd to the relay coil.A picture would paint a thousand words!Have a look at the relay diagram in the datasheet below.You could also look up the datasheet of the transistor, draw the circuit diagram, it will be easier for you to understand.http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1306711.pdf?_ga=2.117155654.1545737691.1512463944-1448507010.1438655257

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2017, 11:10:55 am
content: Quote from: Airwalk1616 on December 05, 2017, 01:59:28 am@SMdude I got the relay correct thiugh right?

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2017, 12:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: Airwalk1616 on December 05, 2017, 11:10:55 amYes, that is my guess going by how the board is laid out.But you must confirm this by looking to see where the trace that connects the red wire to the relay goes, it should go to that relay.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2017, 01:15:35 pm
content: Well, the solder joint connects it directly from the red spade connection to the NO terminal of that relay. Are there smaller printed traces you’re referring to that I need to check?

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 01:41:35 am
content: Nope, that is it. That is the relay you need to change.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 01:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: SMdude on December 06, 2017, 01:41:35 amso I’m a actually right??

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 06:54:52 pm
content: Shown pretty well here.

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 07:31:49 pm
content: Officially fixed guys! Working like it's supposed to! Thanks for all the help!!!!

author: Airwalk1616
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 04:02:16 am
content: @SMdude especially you my friend. You help3d me outnimmensly. It’s so rewarding to diagnose the issue and have fixed it myself. Feels great..

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2017, 12:10:25 pm
content: Awesome, I'm glad you got it working again!It is really empowering to be able to fix stuff yourself, but I would reccomend learning more on low voltage stuff until you really start to know what you are doing. High voltage isn't really forgiving!Cheers!