High Voltage DC supply safety, how do manufacturers do it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Traceless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2024, 10:59:31 am
content: Assume you have a variable high voltage DC power supply, that takes in 230 VAC input on the primary side and outputs 0-1000 VDC on the secondary side. The chassis is made of metal and connected to PE. The output side is fully isolated from PE/mains, in particular there is no connection between the chassis/PE and GND_DC. Now assume an internal fault causes a connection between DC+ and the chassis. Do high voltage supplies provide fail safe mechanisms for this scenario?

author: Harry_22
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2024, 02:37:52 am
content: High!The shassis (GND_DC) of your DUT must be grounded in any case.This is a rule.Probably you will make some measurements on your DUT. Every mesurement equipment has PE connection. Oscilloscope probe also connected to PE.A situation is created where any touch to the device body is fraught with electric shock.But..I use similar DC source to test PFC/SM PS. The both lines were disconnected from the housing so as not to accidentally create a current loop with myself. So I can accidently touch any point including HT line by one hand. If a breakdown occurs, as in your photo, then my safety source will be no different from the regular mains.Unfortunately my PS does not have fail safe mechanisms such as protection or alarm. That's why I always work under the assumption that it's faulty.It must also be said that any decoupled source still has a finite resistance against shassis. Trying to protect ourselves in this case, we will again come to the existing scheme with PE.PSLet's try to theoretically create protection against breakdown of an isolated secondary source on chassis. So we must monitor the slightest current leakage. Since the resistance between the chassis and this source is quite high (we did our best to isolate it), any capacitance change with the chassis will be difficult to distinguish from a breakdown. The protection will be triggered every time the output is touched like a capacitive field effect sensor.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2024, 08:43:42 am
content: You are not describing a detectable fault scenario. If the output is floating, then referencing the positive terminal to earth ground should be a perfectly valid use case. With that said, it is usually safer to leave the output of a high voltage supply floating, since that helps to prevent electrocution in some cases.Any good power supply will specify the maximum voltage between any output terminal and earth ground. Just because the output is floating doesn't mean you can bias the output to 10 kV! Certainly if the power supply has a 1000 V output then its maximum voltage to ground will be considerably higher than 1000 V. A more common 30 V lab supply may specify only a couple hundred volts maximum.

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2024, 06:57:16 pm
content: When you look at a high voltage car battery (which is also floating) there is always a isolation tester included.(DIN EN 61557-8 (VDE 0413-8) / IEC 61557-8)If the test fails on start up of the car: the high voltage DC-relays (Schütze) in the battery containment are not switched on.So a single fault cannot lead to a hazard.with best regardsAndreas

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2024, 10:02:25 pm
content: A common way is to connect the secondary winding (or the rectified DC) to PE. Then there is just one less wire to worry about. This is for example how microwave ovens work.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 05:10:32 pm
content: You'd want to have protection circuits on the input and the output side.Earth protection has no meaning once you've crossed the isolation barrier- the transformer in this case.If you ground the output side you've lost the isolation provided by the transformer.That might be fine insdide an appliance but not for a bit of test gear with accessible terminals.You need to apply common sense and not rely on protective circuits to save your butt.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 06:34:13 pm
content: A fuse?

author: Traceless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2024, 09:06:58 pm
content: Hi everyone,thanks for the answers so far. I have to admit I wasn't really satisfied with "detection is not possible", "DUT must be grounded" and "you just need to be careful". Generally I agree that when working with high voltages being careful and thinking twice before doing anything is the way to go. Still I think it is always good to try and reduce dangers both due to hardware failures and due to user error as well.Quote from: Harry_22 on November 17, 2024, 02:37:52 amLets assume the DUT is a high voltage capacitor that must be checked for leakage. This means it would be referenced to the isolated DC ground but not to PE.Quote from: Harry_22 on November 17, 2024, 02:37:52 amThis might be a way to do it. If this approach can work I'd suspect that there is already either an IC to do the job or a reference design for a monitoring circuit (I'll go into that below).Quote from: macboy on November 17, 2024, 08:43:42 amI agree that it would be possible with the setup above but for what purpose would I use that particular setup. Can you name a use case where it makes sense to reference DC+ to PE?Quote from: macboy on November 17, 2024, 08:43:42 amIs it really undetectable? Assume we exclude the use case of referencing DC+ to PE. Then if everything is in order the chassis should be completely isolated from both DC+ and DC- at all times, however if due to a breakdown somewhere chassis becomes DC+ there is suddenly a potential difference between chassis and DC- that happens to be (more or less) the same as the potential difference between DC+ and DC- minus. So with the right components one could probably cobble up circuitry to detect just that. As a very crude draft I'm thinking of two voltage monitoring ICs monitoring the potential difference between chassis and DC+ and DC+ and DC-, if those are equal we detect a fault. (Sidenote: OFC I'm aware it will not be as simple as in the picture, we need isolation between the voltage monitors and the 5V logic signals, also a simple OpAmp won't do the job. Actually its a weird use case, usually we have low voltage inputs and high voltage outputs in this case its exactly the other way around so we'd need an "OpAttenuator"-circuit if such a thing exists and might even get away without the intermediate voltage monitors.)Quote from: Andreas on November 17, 2024, 06:57:16 pmThanks for pointing out the associated standards and the DC-relay. To trigger the relay on or of we of course must have a way to detect the fault (i.e. sth. like the "ISOLATION_FAULT" signal above). Since you mentioned high voltage car batteries as practical use case I'd assume that reference circuitry/ICs for that purpose exist already. Do you happen to have an idea what I need to look for to find more info about that (i.e. the name of that particular IC type or the detection circuitry involved)?Quote from: Doctorandus_P on November 19, 2024, 10:02:25 pmThat also might be an option.Quote from: Terry Bites on November 20, 2024, 05:10:32 pmAgreed, but no amount of common sense can prevent eventual hardware failure (i.e. isolation breakdown), and sometimes humans make mistakes. So while it is not good to *rely* on protection circuitry to save you, it surely won't hurt to have it in place.Quote from: Marco on November 20, 2024, 06:34:13 pmIs a fuse really going to help here? If insulation between DC+ and chassis breaks down, there is no current flowing. That is unless the unfortunate person in the picture would touch it. Even if the output would be fused with lets say 100mA the little guy would have a *bad* day.Anyhow thinking about that problem feels to me like reinventing the wheel. High voltage DC supplies, SMUs and other high voltage devices exist for a long time. Someone with a lot more knowledge and experience must already have dealt with this question right?For instance in theKeithley 2290 Series datasheetthere is the following section:QuoteI'd be interested in *how* this is done, not necessarily exactly Keithleys solution, but *a* solution on how professional high voltage gear generally deals with security issues. I'd assume that much like with the input protections on DMMs the fundamental principles of protection in those devices will be similar but implementation details may differ inbetween vendors and devices.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2024, 09:38:41 pm
content: how about just having it grounded to the chassis on negative?Unless it can seriously put out some power, fuses are basically out because the current levels are too low.It seems to make the classic scheme of blow the fuse on the chassis ineffective.If its hard wired into the chassis with a reliable connection, it should 100% short out the supply completely if there is a insulation fault.All of the measures proposed so far seem rupe goldberg compared to either a fuse or a grounded chassis.

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 09:31:56 pm
content: Hello,Quote from: Traceless on November 28, 2024, 09:06:58 pmwhen I remember right there was a principle diagram in the standard.Usually you have anyway 2 microcontrollers within the battery cirquit (HV + LV) so one of them also does the isolation test (with the help of high voltage reed relays).with best regardsAndreas