Submerged mineral oil PC - but EE what would say on it? Finally... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 11:16:11 am
content: You know what I'm talking about:Maybe I will overclock my PC in a nasty oil bath... just because I want to see myself how it is.After some google, I found a lot of feedback from IT/Gamer/PC Overclocking Guys/Kids.It would be interesting to see what an EE (like me but I have no experience on this) i.e. the person I trust the most when it gets down to HW stuff, have to say about it...Do you guys have any experience or suggestions?Few inputs from my side I found, (everything to be confirmed)....1) TIM paste on Heatsink will dissolve in Mineral Oil, replace it with thermal padshttps://hardforum.com/threads/thermal-compound-oil.1321446/2) Some Elco Caps rubbed sealed have hard time since the rubber seal is eaten by the oilto prevent that:no way!!!3) Submerged cables will lose flexibility and become hard, here the isolation plastic is not happy in oil. On top of that oil will creep to the top of the cable because of capillarity.Interesting here, seems to work somehow...https://www.pugetsystems.com/mineral-oil-pc.phpThis is the oil I will use: Addinol WX15:http://www.insist2.com/admin/upl/779016_wx_15_gb-en.pdfThe heat capacity should be about (Paraffin) 2.00–2.9 J g-1 K-1... which is OK, of course not like water...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 11:56:06 am
content: While I understand it "works", the practical aspects would frustrate the hell out of me!One further comment is that I would imagine that surface traces on boards designed for specific impedances will be directly affected by the permittivity of the oil, so you may find that under the oil some things won't work, or will negotiate back speed such as on PCIe traces, and in marginal cases something that works in air simply won't work under oil.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 12:58:53 pm
content: I don't see that case doing much for either interference or immunity either.....Many plastics do not do well in mineral oils, so making your cables up out of teflon insulated might be a good idea (Also, watch the fishtank plastic, it may eventually deplasticise and become brittle, real mess potential there).CPU heatink fins run the wrong way for convective cooling (And pull the cpu fan, it will not make an effective oil pump and just blocks the oil flow).If you must use silicone gunk, make sure you get the electronics grade stuff that does not emit acids as it cures.I would be really nervous about the PC DIY crowd pulling the guts out of a PC power supply like that, those things do not take prisoners, and the case is actually quite important to both safety and RFI screening.Also, oil immersed electronics is a messy pain in the arse (The mucking stuff gets everywhere), been there commercially, damned if I am going there on a hobby job, I would almost rather deal with DI water.Also, remember that you still have to get the heat out of the oil eventually....73 Dan.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 01:08:08 pm
content: LinusTechTips has a few videos on this. The case eventually leaked. Also, due to not wanting to be sued, companies don't offer these any more so there isn't as much long-term testing or reliability done as there has been for watercooling.They do look absolutely fantastic though as a showpiece.

author: Codebird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 01:32:19 pm
content: Coolant options, in sort:Mineral oil: Cheap, works, damages a lot of plastics. Will degrade insulation over time, so don't immerse anything expensive in it.Silicone oil: Bit more viscous, so takes more to keep circulating, but also less destructive. Costs a bit more.Perflurocarbons: The coolent supreme. Safe on all components, low-viscosity, cools great. The cray ran on this stuff. But the price is... well, you can't afford it.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 02:11:39 pm
content: Thing is oil cooled PCs are ONLY for the cool factor and thats it.Most kinds of oil don't have very good cooling properties. While yes they do have more heat capacity than air, but its still far from the heat capacity of water and being so thick means they don't flow easily enough. So in the end you don't really gain much cooling performance compared to air, but you gain a lot of pain in the process. As you said things degrade in oil, tweaking components is a pain as everything is messy, if a component dies you can't warenty it back etc....If you want overclocking performance then good water cooling blocks are the way to go. But its still so expensive that it only makes sense to do it on top of the range hardware. Otherwise the price difference is better spent simply getting faster components rather than overclocking cheap ones using expensive watercooling.I don't knock anyone for building one, i think they look really cool too. Just don't do it exclusively for better performance as you will be disappointed.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 02:15:31 pm
content: So a BIG cpu cooler has some 30, very thin sheet metal part, 120x120mm, giving a surface area about 800.000 mm2area.The aquarium has 13.8 x 12 x 7.5 inches (whatever that unit is) dimension, giving 460.000 mm2. The thing is ultimately cooled by air. And there is a video card, etc in your system.So brilliant idea. Also, having 6 gallon (again, whatever that unit is) of 88 Celsius hot mineral oil on your desk, above your reproduction parts, sounds like a good way to get a Darwin award.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 02:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 14, 2017, 02:15:31 pmSure, if you don't pump it to radiators.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 03:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: Codebird on February 14, 2017, 01:32:19 pmVery interesting....Just a little research:Mineral Oil, viscosity @20C 35,3 cSt about 3,45€/Liter Specific Heat @25C 2.0-2.9 J g-1 K-1Silicon Oil, viscosity @20C 350 cSt about 4,50€/Liter Specific Heat @25C 1.46?? J g-1 K-1Silicon Oil, viscosity @20C 100 cSt about 8€/Liter Specific Heat @25C 1.5 J g-1 K-1Silicon Oil, viscosity @20C 20 cSt about 11€/Liter Specific Heat @25C 1.6 J g-1 K-1ah very important, the silicon oil smell a little bit but I read it is not dramatic...Very interesting:http://www.silitech.ch/upload/complement_info_fournisseur_d/32.pdfQuoteMaybe the low viscosity is the real enemy for rubber/plastic?it looks like yes:https://www.shinetsusilicone-global.com/products/type/oil/detail/about/index2.shtml#fushokulQuotehttps://www.shinetsusilicone-global.com/products/type/oil/detail/about/p2401.htmlhttps://www.shinetsusilicone-global.com/products/type/oil/detail/about/p2402.htmlAnyway it looks like silicon oil has less heat capacity then the mineral one... so mmmm...

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 04:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on February 14, 2017, 02:11:39 pmLook at the data, (J g-1 K-1):water 4mineral oil 2-2,9,silicon oil 1,5air 1but do not forget that there are a lot more molecules of oil touching the heat sink than air... and this is not taken in account by looking at the heat capacity number.... so this will also improve drammatically the heat taken away...correct me please, this is just what I got from he web... not at school.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 05:08:46 pm
content: note that those specific heat numbers are per gram, you need a lot fewer litres/second of oil for a given delta T then you do air, because the oils are far more dense.The difference is far more then the specific heat numbers on their own would imply.I would not bother for a computer, but am thinking about a water loop for an RF power amplifier, the power density of modern LDMOS sand makes cooling painful (1,500W in a few square cm).73 Dan.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 05:16:27 pm
content: This double ee would say forget it. Not because of component damage or any of those things. It will probably work fine for quite a while. But the cool factor is small, the trouble factor is big. It is now heavy, has to be right side up, is a royal PITA to service, and doesn't buy much if any on performance.If you want cool, set up a CO2 tank to periodically spray dry ice on the machine, or set up a LN2 spritzer. (be very careful if you do this. It isn't that hard to kill yourself by suffocation. Frostbite also sucks, and too much spritzing will kill your computer.)

author: FrankD
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 06:19:21 pm
content: Don't use skydroll or break fluid.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 06:40:24 pm
content: Yes those heat capacity figures make air seam better than it actually is since a given volume of air at sea level has very little mass, but air does have one large advantage, its viscosity is very low. This is best demonstrated by compressed air plumbing, the tiniest of gaps result in quite a sizable air leak while if you put water at presshure in the same piping it would result in a very slow drip or no leak at all. A lot of gases even when liquefied at low temperature or high pressure maintain there very low viscosity. Liquid helium is even famous for having an incredibly low viscosity. But even water flows a lot easier than most oils.A low viscosity not only means that its easier to push the same amount of fluid trough the heatsink using the same fan but it also makes the fluid not stick to the fin surface as much. Only the fluid that is making contact is useful so if the same fluid sticks around on the surface while the fluid above it moves then your thermal transfer is not very good. The way PC watercooling combats this is by making the fin gap inside the waterblock very narrow and use a decent amount of pressure to force liquid trough them. This makes for a high flow velocity trough the restricted path so it can drag the sticking fluid along as well as not give it much room to flow anywhere but right next to the fin surface. This also allows for a tiny heatsink size so less copper is needed to spread the heat out to a larger area (copper also has thermal resistance, even if its small)Maybe you could get great cooling performance if you use good low thermal resistance heatsinks with high power fans in oil. Those high power server/industrial fans make hell of a racket in air but would likely run silently in oil. That way you overcome the viscosity issue with raw power, get the benefit of a smaller heatsink to reduce the path for the heat to travel and still have it silent.But in the end of the day i think its very hard to beat a properly designed watercooling setup, if you want to go more extreme than that you can always use phase change refrigeration to cool your PC components below ambient, or even deep freeze them for huge overclocking, tho i don't think even an air conditioner compressor would be powerful enough to cool a gaming PC down deep negative and keep it there all day. Also you would need to carefully control it and regulate it as freezing CPUs too cold makes them crash and unable to boot. That is ignoring the practical challenges of needing a outdoor heat exchanger to get rid of the kilowatts of heat, keeping moisture from condensing on your components or the long term reliability concerns of running computer hardware at there very limits continuously.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 06:56:44 pm
content: I've used mineral oil to submerge HV transformers and the stuff is a real pain. It gets *everywhere*, it's almost impossible to prevent all leaks. Anything it gets on is then virtually impossible to get adhesive or sealant to bond to. If you use wires, especially stranded wire in it the oil wicks up under the insulation. I can't imagine what possible advantage there would be to immerse the whole PC. Air cooling works just fine and can even be made very quiet. For those who just have to be different, water cooling with water blocks on specific components is viable.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 07:57:32 pm
content: Why on earth would you want to submerge the pc on oil?

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 08:06:58 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on February 14, 2017, 07:57:32 pmSo you can make a youtube video about it, and ask viewers to comment , like and subscribe.After it leaks, you can make a video about that and ask viewers to comment , like and subscribe.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2017, 08:13:34 pm
content: right....

author: avrishuvorlaz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2017, 03:33:50 am
content: Some folk ought to find something more useful to do with their obvious surplus of spare time... wow...

author: avrishuvorlaz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2017, 03:39:41 am
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on February 14, 2017, 01:08:08 pmI would have thought a more elegant and efficient way to solve this "problem" (that no one except those who can never stop fiddling around inside their PC - CAUSING more problems that never existed apart from in their head - like an obsessive mechanic "boy racer", seems to have) would be to get one's nose down to the drafting table and come up with a custom made airflow and heatsink solution, find a used CNC machine and built it from scratch - a bit like that amazing guy "Tesla500" does with his "Chronos" camera - THAT level of from-scratch engineering is something to revere, not some dude who shoves a load of oil into a tank, dunks a PC in and expects praise.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2017, 06:03:50 am
content: I have a PC with a CPU liquid cooler , i can say it works great, very quiet and efficient, the CPU never gets over 50C. I've been having it since 2012, for 5 years or something, no signs of leaks and the tubes remain nice and soft.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2017, 09:43:19 am
content: Thanks for all the Infos... I probably go for water cooling solution then,I have a ASUS Sabertooth 990FX R2.0, and I will buy replace the stock heat sinks with those:North bridge:https://shop.anfi-tec.de/ucdnano.htmlSouth Bridge:https://shop.anfi-tec.de/ucdsb.htmlVRM:https://shop.anfi-tec.de/pwm068.htmlFeel free to tell me I'm crazy...

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2017, 02:07:30 pm
content: By the time you put everything together it still won't be cheap but it should have amazing cooling performance if done right.Oh and if you go this far the graphics card should really be watercooled too. The GPU burns significantly more power than the CPU when working hard (Unless you are overclocking your CPU to hell and back or running one of those ridiculously hungry AMDs).

author: Codebird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2017, 03:44:25 pm
content: QuoteRecords, mostly. You can overclock on water cooling, but that only does spot cooling on your processor and GPU. As you push the hardware harder in your quest for the ultimate in performance you start to see overheating of the buck converters, memory, then all sorts of glue chips you never thought about before. If you are into extreme overclocking as a hobby and want the bragging rights that come with an eight-gigahertz eight-core monstrosity, you have to look into extreme measures, and immersion cooling is one way to do it. Along with phase change cooling.I don't know about today, but as of a few years back the highest speed record was held by a Pentium 4... immersed in some liquid I can't recall, with dry ice floating in that to bring the temperature down, and with a special CPU cooler that allowed liquid nitrogen to be just poured over it. It'd only run so long as you kept the coolant pouring in, but it was the fastest processor in the world. That's an engineering achievement to feel proud of.

author: avrishuvorlaz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 01:00:05 am
content: What a complete and utter waste of time and resources. By the time ANYTHING has even come CLOSE to burning or wearing out, you will have retired your old PC and bought a new one.There's a reason SUCH a tiny percentage of people would even bother to engage in this nonsense - because it's just DAFT and redundant. If you want a more capable or better designed PC, BUY A MORE CAPABLE OR BETTER DESIGNED PC!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 01:12:01 am
content: I suppose the extreme overclocking is a bit like drag racing. Drag cars are completely useless for anything other than blasting down a straight bit of track as fast as possible, it costs a fortune, it's pointless from any practical aspect but some people find it entertaining. I have no interest in dunking my PC in liquid nitrogen to try to push it briefly to crazy speeds but to each their own.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 08:08:54 am
content: Quote from: avrishuvorlaz on February 16, 2017, 01:00:05 amBOOOM.Sometime someone just need a silent PC. Have a nice day brother... take it easy it is just a forum.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 08:58:12 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 16, 2017, 01:12:01 amI could not have put it any better! Well done sir.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 09:47:52 am
content: The comparisons seem to ignore the real breakthrough in CPU cooling which is heat pipes.Since those use the latent energy of water their ability to move heat is only bettered by a powered heat pump (A/C). And even the unpowered heat pipes can be bettered by using a lower flash point liquid like ammonia (like absorption refrigerators) - which fortunately is not even necessary.When applied properly a decent heat pipe can take a 70C CPU and drop it to Under 40C. That is some massive Wattage...Even water systems don't come close. 4.184 Joules/degree C/gram. Yuck.Compare that with the latent heat of vaporization of water - 2257 Joules / Gram.....

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 12:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on February 16, 2017, 09:47:52 amHeat pipes don't use water for the evaporative fluid. If they did, they wouldn't work below 100 deg C.But yes, heat pipes are cool. Btw, easy to buy too:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DIY-laptop-notebook-brass-cooler-heat-exchanger-tube-fins-efficient-copper-pipe-80mm-300mm-Thermal-conductivity/32291675053.htmlSome interesting heat-pipe-hack photos there.Anyway...Everyone is forgetting the very great advantage of mineral oil cooled PCs.When there's a power failure, you can stick a wick in it and use it as a lamp.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 03:33:26 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 16, 2017, 12:33:42 pmNow THERE you have hit on a real advantage. Days of emergency lighting and a bit of heat for those in cold climates.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 03:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 16, 2017, 01:12:01 amThat may be so until you get interested in quantum computers

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 04:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 16, 2017, 12:33:42 pmIt's possible to build a heat pipe using water that works well below 100C, they have the air evacuated and run at a lower pressure. Water will boil at room temperature in a vacuum.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 04:27:13 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 16, 2017, 12:33:42 pmYou can use water for heatpipes if you reduce the pressure inside to make water boil at room temperature.Indeed heat pipes are used a lot for cooling PCs but it still does not work as well as watercooling. While yes changing the phase of water requires a lot of energy but the heatpipes move around very little liquid inside them because they have to use the wicking action of the internal structures to move fluid around. As opposed to watercooling where you have a pump pushing a large volume of fluid trough so quickly it heats up by only a few degrees by the time it comes back out the other side.Heatpipes do have a big upside tho. They are very reliable and maintenance free since there are basically zero moving parts.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 12:51:16 am
content: Quote from: zucca on February 16, 2017, 08:08:54 amYou still have to cool your coolant, it won't be silent. You need pumps and fans.One of the dangerous of mineral oil submersion is the high heat capacity means an undercooled system can take hours to heat up. You might think you have enough cooling, leave your PC on for a while, and come back to an overheated system. This means if all you want is a neat youtube video, you don't really need any cooling at all - but if you want to have a working PC for longer than a youtube video you're going to need active cooling. And if you follow one of those cool youtube videos, you may not find out until you've damaged something.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 02:03:55 am
content: With thermal protection systems on every piece of hardware you'd be hard pressed to damage hardware even deliberately.With enough radiator space you can have as near silence as background hum without putting 3KG of copper and aluminium hung from the motherboard.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2017, 09:07:15 am
content: Man There is no point in making a mineral oil submerged pc.First of all, you have to get rid of the heat, not rely on thermal mass to cool it, otherwise you won't cool anything, it just heats up.Second, if you use mineral oil in an aquarium or something else, what will happen if your tank breaks? Cleaning it is impossible.Third, Have you ever considered what happens if something malfunction and a fire starts? Tell you this because you are playing with electricity and a flammable fluid.1 square meter of water is about 1 ton. 1 square meter of oil would also be more or less 1 Ton. So, weight is something to consider.Also, another issue, are the fans: fans are made to work on air not oil so your fans are likely to beak up.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2017, 07:53:55 pm
content: +1 for total waste of time. If this is such an issue just buy one of the water cooling systems.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 02:21:02 am
content: Agreed completely that it's a waste of time, but an aquarium that size is not going to be tremendously heavy, not light but it's nowhere near a cubic meter, which I assume is what you meant because a square meter of oil could be a tiny quantity as the thickness is not defined. The flammability is possibly a valid concern, although I think the chances of a malfunction starting a fire are minimal at the power levels involved. You can throw a match into a bucket of oil and it will just go out.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 02:25:46 am
content: Nothing can beat an old good air cooler.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2017, 01:37:29 pm
content: Funny thing about that one is it looks like there will be a big hole in the air flow right about where the CPU is. Fromt he huge hub of the fan.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 05:05:23 pm
content: Old topic, but since I am with EEVBlog for years I will refresh the subject.We have tested silicone oils/mineral oils 5 years ago. They do work but they are not good products for long time.We can provide You best, fully synthetic liquid on the market:https://flameit.io/immersion-cooling/liquid6 cSt @ 40oC with 0,14 W/mK thermal conductivity and best material compatibility list available.Not only we have liquid for immersion cooling but also line of own immersion cooling ready pumps. With parts that were not compatible with our liquid replaced at factoryhttps://flameit.io/immersion-cooling/pumpsWe are also designing and manufacturing own tanks for every project that needs tailor-made solutions.If you have any question do not hesitate asking. I am also onEEVBlog Discordserver[felixd#3276]if You want You can also join ourhttps://discord.flameit.ioRegards, Paweł.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 07:08:50 pm
content: Many oil cooled power distribution and transmission transformers 10 kW..1 MW since over a century have shown a few tips....1/ Oil used in cooling needs moisture and resistance monitoring.2/ The post PCB oils are rather costly. Some are hygroscopic and need drying or other treatment.3/ The transformer is baked out prior to filling with oil to remove all moisture trapped.4/ Oil is circulated thru coolers by a pump or natural thermal circulation (convection)5/ The airgap above the oil may have flammable vapors.My take is that the risk/cost benefits of this scheme should be reevaluated.The great reduction in die area and power dissipation on modern GPU and CPU have generally reduced the need for overclock/water coolingFinally, beware of fire hazard, leaks and void of warranty of critical parts eg CPU/MoBo, GPU.Jon

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 07:11:21 pm
content: Nice necro.It's rather obvious to anyone sane that doing this is just fine for entertaining purposes and making views on Youtube, but makes absolutely no sense for anyone else.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:14:23 pm
content: Bonsoir Jean. Thank You for you great input on the subject.First of all and most important our liquid is fully synthetic product which is not mineral oil nor silicone oil that:* has no smell,* is non-toxic* non-carcinogenic,* non-halogenate,* food grade* free from sulphur, nitrogen and aromatics* with superior oxidation and thermal stabilityOur product has 6 cSt @ 40oC of kinematic viscosity with thermal conductivity at 0,14 W/mK. Our liquid is strictly designed for cooling electronics (highest material compatiblity and best physico-checmical properties).BUT:Material compatiblity is ALWAYS a thing that needs to be considered. We are always edutaction our customer about every aspect of the system and material copmatiblity is always one of first thing we are talking about with customers.That's why we have our own pumps line with material changed in factory to meet our material compatiblity requirements. It was really hard journey to find partner that will do that keeping pump princes in acceptable range. But we have found great partner.Critical pumps parts that had to be changed after 5 months in our liquidMaterials that are not compatible after a day:We have acces to our chemical plant labolatory where we can make better material testing if needed with proper raports after testing:We have a working installation running for more than 5 years already (still working, still heating my house - I have always start experimenting on myself - never ON customer - always WITH customer if we are testing anything)You can read more about our proof of concept installation here:https://flameit.io/assets/pdf/articles/onet-noizz-mines-cryptocurrency-and-heats-house.pdf1/ Oil used in cooling needs moisture and resistance monitoring.I do TOTALLY agree. We are capable of doing that.2/ The post PCB oils are rather costly. Some are hygroscopic and need drying or other treatment.This is true. Our product is not the cheapest one.3/ The transformer is baked out prior to filling with oil to remove all moisture trapped.That is correct as well. Mineral oil and silicone oils with slight ppms of moisture are rapidly loosing breakdown voltage. That's why transformer oils are way much more moisture resistant than mentioned before oils (minerla nd silicone). So is our product.4/ Oil is circulated thru coolers by a pump or natural thermal circulation (convection)In our solution we are using pumps for better heat ciruclation. Hot liquid is circulated thourgh heat exchanger where recovered waste heat from computers can be reused to heat swimming pools, houses, buildings or even farms with 40 000 chickensThose chicks are heated with crypto miners:5/ The airgap above the oil may have flammable vapors.Flashpoint of our liquid is above 150 oC (accepted by industry standards)My take is that the risk/cost benefits of this scheme should be reevaluated.Of course. We always "force" our customers to calculate everything as we are doing so. That's why we have prepared this calculator that helps them understand things a bit better:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K1HBuF4_VlP3kch8rXuhOGlgDsQhomcg0anKSOYG5XA/edit?usp=sharingYou can edit green fields.Also, please take into consideration that we are reusing heat for purpouse.3kW cryptominer (100% load all the time) is capable of FULLY heating 140m2 of newly built house wiht good isolation. 21 oC inside the house with 1-2 oC outside.3kW miner in action:We are already heating hotel swimming pools, houses, farms etc. It is not a problem at all.LEAKS: OH YEAH! We know something about leaks))) But in 5 years of improving of our products we have developed procedures and tested sealing materials that risk of leaks have been almost totaly eliminated (it's still one of our biggest concern of course when we are installating new setup)Regarding warrant voids, that's correct. If you immerse "standard" computer Your warranty is voided but together with our partners we are capable of delivering servers (19/21'') with 3 year minimum warranty.Jean, merci encore pour ton commentaire. Is there any chance we can have a call and talk more about tansformer oils?I can see You have expierience in that filed and it's always great to expand konwledge.If you are open for that I will send You private message.Bonne nuit, Paweł

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:22:45 pm
content: It totally makes sance to reuse heat from servers, cryptominers, rendering farms etc.By removing fans, lowering working temperatures your are lowering resitance which converts into lower power usage.With recovered, sometimes MW of power You have heat source capable of heating towns.Regards, Pawel

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 09:42:00 pm
content: I still think Slydrol is the best stuff to use. It such a finger licking tasty stuff.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:24:15 pm
content: Checking it right now. Looks tastyQuote

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2023, 10:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: felixd on March 17, 2023, 09:22:45 pmWhile it certainly can have some niche applications, and I don't doubt you have a great product here, my point was that it made absolutely no sense to cool down a desktop PC, which was the point of the thread.Even for servers, that's something that would be used with a lot of thought. Not just submerging the whole hardware in mineral oil. The resulting weight would be enormous (causing specific issues for mounting purposes) and, it would render any maintenance a horrific process.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 12:07:50 am
content: Quote from: felixd on March 17, 2023, 09:22:45 pmCryptominers should not exist in the first place, they should be illegal to produce and operate. The amount of energy they consume doing useless busy work is obscene and has completely negated all the progress we have made toward greater efficiency and lower environmental impact.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 01:14:54 am
content: Rebonjour Cher Pavel, j'ai connexions forte à Pologne. BRAVO pour votre efforts et idées nouvelles.I was electrical engineer since ,1968, consultant and manufacturing spécialiste in high voltage, power supplies, magnetics, up to 12 kW and 75 kV. Now long retired!Best référence book on utility transmission and distribution transformers, most oil cooled, since,1925(!) is classic, The J&P Transformer book éd Martin Heathcote.UK,costly but earlier éditions are fine, my tenth ,Ed,in London, Foyles in 1973....was,£25!https://www.amazon.com/J-Transformer-Book-Martin-Heathcote/dp/0750681640/Je suis très heureux pour un vidéo ou appel via Skype, Facetime, Zoom.PM me with contact information.AmicalementJon

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 02:24:52 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 18, 2023, 12:07:50 amMake the busy work not useless, as Curecoin and Foldingcoin do. Or make it something that uses less energy, but that's a harder problem to solve in the long term.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 06:40:07 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 18, 2023, 02:24:52 amIf it uses less power it's not going to be worth as much. If you try to make something that consumes little power, someone will just use bigger hardware that uses more power in order to mine it faster. I don't see any way to make it hard to mine that won't also encourage large amounts of power to be used. The entire concept is fundamentally flawed, and all crypto is useless as currency because it is so unstable. If you can make a lot of money investing in it then it's not a good currency.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 07:13:39 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 17, 2023, 10:32:03 pmI completely agree. Immersion Cooling is not for desktop PC cooling (although You can do it - history of this post shows that.Our installations are achieving PUE at < 1.04 One of the best DCs in my region (air cooled) are proud to get lowest PUE at around 1.2Think about OPEX and savings on cooling (which is one of the biggest parts of OPEX costs for DC).You are removing noise and vibrations - completely. Virtually, there is no noiseMaintenance:That is correct. It's not horrific process BUT requires different approach. I do totally agree in that point. On the other hand keep in mind all the advantages of the instalaltions: lower power usage, no noise, no dust, better cooling and what is MOST important for me - EASE OF HEAT REUSINGLower temperatures is also a field for overclocking if needed or lowering power usage even more - with lower temperature comes lower power useage at same CPU frequency . Paper towels shouldn't stop You from choosing right direction.Once again, I would like to point out that we are not using mineral oils. We havefully synthetic immersion cooling liquid[physico-chemical properties are on our web page]WeightYes - that is a thing to consider. Especially when with immersion cooling You can achievie MUCH HIGHER hardware density per square meter. But hey, we are engineers - everything can be calculated and designed.Paweł.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 07:18:37 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 18, 2023, 12:07:50 amWhile I love crypto (technically and practially) I do TOTALLY agree that amount of energy wasted for Proof of Work crypto projects is enormous.That's why we are NOT ONLY focusing on crypto mining hardware and we are also providing immersion cooling ready 19/21'' servers [warranty included] for AI/ML/Rendering or any other type of HPC projects.Paweł.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 07:36:40 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 18, 2023, 12:07:50 amNot all of them. There's one who used to post in this forum (until the TEApocalypse), and she powers her rig using solar PV, and uses the waste heat to help warm her house.Granted, it's a pretty small set-up in the grand scheme of things, but it does show it's possible.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 07:37:52 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 18, 2023, 06:40:07 amI do totally agree with You James.Now imagine, that there is a project where You can share You computional power and get reward in crypto for doing that. It's already there.But in the end transfering that crypto closes the loop and we are at Your point again. As I have already written. I do love crypto technically but I do totally agree that it's wasting computional power for things that does not require that amount of power. Difficulty for confirming Bitcoin transaction is artificially increased. This is, sadly, how it has been designed.As I have already mentioned, several times, that is why we are not focusing with our technology strictly only on crypto but also on other applicatioins.But since crypto is with us and will stay with us and is using enormous amount of electricity it's essential to lower that power usege and RECOVER and REUSE all wasted energy. That's what we are doing.How much heat is generated by computers that are working?FlameIT - Immersion Cooling: Is this true that computers convert all electrical energy into heat?TL;DR: With fans removed and all equimpent immersed You can safely assume that that with 1kW of electrical power going into computer You are getting 1kW of heatHeat reuse example: We are heating hotel swimming poolThis setup is capable of delivering, constantly 20kW (pumps and heat exchangers were calculated for this amount of heat).With 20kW of heating power You can for example heat 2000L from 10oC -> 60oC in 6 hours. Now keep in mind that 20kW heat source is constantly on.That's why 3kW of heating, constantly turned on is capable of heating 140m2 house to 21oC when there is 1oc outside.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 07:42:00 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on March 18, 2023, 07:36:40 amThis is exactly what I am doing. You can read about my first, proof of conept installation (still working) we have built back in 2018.https://flameit.io/assets/pdf/articles/onet-noizz-mines-cryptocurrency-and-heats-house.pdfNow, my PV installation got a bit bigger. As I have already mentioned, I love to experiment but on myself firstWe can experiment WITH customers and we are doing that, of course, with their full awareness of what we are doing and what we are testing.Regards, Paweł.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 12:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 18, 2023, 06:40:07 amCurecoin and Foldingcoin still use a lot of power to mine, but they do medical research in the process so it's not wasteful.One could also use something other than energy as the limiting factor. There were quite a few smartphone mined coins back in the day which were limited by IP address, with VPN/VPS ranges blacklisted. Most of those failed by greedy exchange operators crashing them. The closed ecosystem they are based on also moderate the value of the coins produced, but introduced many other problems.In principle, there could be a cryptocurrency mined by seeding content. Basically providing an incentive to create a decentralized alternative to Youtube. But nobody has figured out how to make it work yet.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2023, 11:54:11 pm
content: On a more strategic level, Any stats on yearly energy consumption in USA/EU/UK/World forBitcoin/cryptcurreny miningstorage of all data on servers?CPU/GPU consumption of all servers?Power for maint of internet and link bandwidth?I think that 90..99 % off all energy use for internet/comm/mobile energy use is consumed for garbage videos/games/cat photos/porn/fraudeThis the mining system mentioned here is perhsp using 0.000001% of the energy.Can we know how much energy is wasted by government caused bureaucracy, wars, regulations, taxes, corruption?Jon

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 12:30:46 am
content: Beyond what Jon said - indeed a gigantic fraction of the computing energy used worldwide is for spam, shit content, fraud and corruption - a relevant study should compare the overall cost of maintaining cryptocurrencies with the cost of maintaining regular currencies, which is done differently, but also has a gigantic direct, but mostly indirect cost. How much do you think is the cost of "forcing" trust in currencies that would probably have long collapsed otherwise?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 01:16:04 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on March 18, 2023, 11:54:11 pmYou can readily find sources for estimates of those globally , 0.5-1% for all crypto vs 1% for all other data centres, or 5-10% for all computer/IT/network use.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 02:01:39 pm
content: https://energyinnovation.org/2020/03/17/how-much-energy-do-data-centers-really-use/What's most important cooling is around 40% of OPEX with average PUE at around 1.6 in average DC.We are dropping PUE to less than 1.04 with potential to heat recovery and reusage (huge potential)

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 03:19:47 pm
content: What impact does the mineral oil have on optical connections, e.g. SC?

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 07:59:10 pm
content: optical connectors relying on an air gap may have de focusing with oil.Some . fibre connections need a specified oil contact.Wonder if the issues mentioned with oil immersed computer can be solved,with gas,cooling eg use of,hélium ?Largest utility generators,are even hydrogen cooled.Con Edison Ravenswood station has " Big Allis" install 1965, 981 Mwattt-~ 1 GW !now we're talkin power!Jon

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 08:13:22 pm
content: This is the sort of thing that should be happening much more...Quotehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-64939558

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 01:02:29 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 19, 2023, 12:30:46 amI think everyone not directly benefiting from it would love to see spam outlawed and shut down. I fully support shutting down spam and crypto, they're both a complete waste of energy and neither will ever be truly useful outside of criminal enterprise and scammy stuff.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 02:03:51 am
content: thinking of the energy wasted in creating, stories and servingVideosGamesGramblingPornographieso,called "Crypto Currency"JonI bet it's,a,huge fraction of total energy use...

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 04:06:00 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on March 19, 2023, 07:59:10 pmLet's just not let OVH try that!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 01:29:20 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on March 20, 2023, 02:03:51 amI recall that online video uses less energy than driving to the library to rent a DVD even just one mile away. The difference is even greater for audio and text.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 01:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: abeyer on March 20, 2023, 04:06:00 amThat's mean! But since we're talking about fire, wouldn't mineral oil increase the probabilty and severity of a disaster?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 01:53:29 pm
content: You could certainly argue that, at the worst case Oxygen contamination, Hydrogen would just cause 'rapid unplanned disassembly', while oil cause slower but much wider destruction.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 03:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 18, 2023, 12:07:50 amWell, not sure about totally negated the progress, but definitely agreed it's useless work and bad for the planet.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2023, 03:35:48 pm
content: Great way to burn your solar panel excess energy produced on a sunny day.

author: felixd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2023, 07:26:34 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 19, 2023, 08:13:22 pmThis is something we are already doing for a long time. Here is one of our first installations we did in one of polish hotels.