Perpetual Motion - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: niky518
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 12:57:09 pm
content: Hi!Is this possible?watch from 11:48

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 12:59:44 pm
content: No.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 03:02:38 pm
content: Another NUT JOB !! If only he had 5points less IQ, he could be a politician.

author: onlooker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 03:26:15 pm
content: Dave,Can you ban/remove this thread/topic? It is a waste of time for anyone come here.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 04:24:09 pm
content: The guy is an attention seeking crackpot. He is spewing out gibberish and playing the same old card all the fraudsters do: the one simple trick the powers at be want to hide from us. This guy needs to put a bullet in his own head and save the planet the resources he will use up during his lifetime as he is clearly just a waste of space.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 04:46:19 pm
content: Just another charlatan!

author: chrome
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 04:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 05, 2012, 04:24:09 pmYeah that's an appropriate response...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:11:41 pm
content: Quote from: onlooker on August 05, 2012, 03:26:15 pmhow about the snake oil thread? fyi: its now sticky!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 05, 2012, 06:11:41 pmKeep your pants on! I'm putting money on the OP being the crack pot video author. So either he will get the hint or it will get "interesting" probably ending in his banning. At which point the thread will be removed.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:39:54 pm
content: Got the popcorn handy Simon? I have watched some amazing flame wars.......... of course on the boards I monitored they went to the bit bucket, I was the BOFH and only approved posts I liked or wanted sent out. Basically 1 a week to the list............ 999 Spam of course.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:49:08 pm
content: yep popcorn at the ready and sitting comfy, safe in the knowledge I have the row of big red detonator buttons in comfy arms reach

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 06:58:52 pm
content: As long as the popcorn is not Monsanto, and you are using unsalted butter, along with some nice sweet chilli. Also works well with nice toasted garlic in the butter as well, nice big chunks, fried till smoky brown.

author: niky518
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 07:00:37 pm
content: Can someone explain why this is not possible? All just spam and say that is not possible, some explanation plssorry on my bad english...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 07:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 05, 2012, 07:00:37 pmyou english was good enough in the video..... Tell me what exactly was explained in the video. It is not possible because nothing was explained, just a list of "big" words.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 07:10:36 pm
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 05, 2012, 07:00:37 pmThe power companies that generate electricity have to pay money for the fuel (gas or coal) to generate that electricity. The cost of the fuel is huge and limits how much profit they can make. If the power companies could find a way to generate electricity without having to buy fuel to feed the generators their profits would become astronomical and they would all be doing it. Since they are not doing it, there is clearly a bit of a snag in the "free electricity" theory.

author: niky518
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 07:26:06 pm
content: you english was good enough in the videoloool, I'm not made that video!

author: chrome
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 07:26:44 pm
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 05, 2012, 07:00:37 pmThe reason you can't get energy for free is "conservation of energy".You can't get more energy out of something than you put into it.Lets say for example you power a motor using 1kW of electrical energy, if you couple this motor to a generator, it's impossible to get more than 1kW out of this generator.In theory it's even impossible to get close to this 1kW since you have to account for losses (friction in bearings that gets converted to heat, heat because of the resistance of wires, etc etc).The energy has to come from somewhere.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 07:33:58 pm
content: The law of conservation of energy (maybe conservation of mass-energy) is an interesting one.There is no actual proof available, it is just something supported by every experiment ever performed. One has to assume it is true given the weight of experimental evidence, but one day someone might discover an exception. However, such an exception if found would be incredibly hidden and certainly not accessible to anyone with normal apparatus like coils and magnets.

author: benemorius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 08:23:21 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 05, 2012, 07:33:58 pmCareful now. It's dangerous to go around imposing restrictions like that without due caution. A great many apparently magical things (though of course not all) become highly accessible once they're understood. The list of incredible-yet-true scientific principles that can be tested at home is actually enormous.Thousands of years ago, hardly anyone could have guessed that by simply drawing out a length of copper wire and jiggling a bunch of it at one end, one could watch a bunch of it at the other end magically jiggle around in a similar fashion, yet that's exactly what would have happened had anyone been silly or gullible enough to try such a stupid thing.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 09:10:17 pm
content: Let's first separate perpetual motion from free energy. (Nearly) Perpetual motion is indeed possible - the Earth has been orbiting the Sun for over 4.5 billion years - but you can't extract energy from it and still have perpetual motion.Free energy is possible as well, although the devices to extract such energy are not free and there are limitations. Solar energy is already practical in some areas, but not in others. Same with wind energy.

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2012, 11:06:52 pm
content: if you get into the theoretical physics (multiverse stuff) then maybe conservation of energy can breakdown (or seem to break down if somehow the energy is flowing from another universe). Better ask Hawking, hell if I know.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 12:10:04 am
content: Quote from: benemorius on August 05, 2012, 08:23:21 pmIn areas that are not well understood the scope for discovery remains. But the theory of electromagnetism is understood in great detail and has comprehensive experimental verification. There simply isn't any room for someone to find an unexplained phenomenon when playing around with magnets and wires any more. There is no danger at all in saying this. The only people who think there is some "magic" left to find are the people who don't understand the physics.It's absolutely true that you can test many incredible scientific principles at home and everybody should. Don't take other people's word for it just because you read it in a text book. But at the same time, I can predict without fear of contradiction that every home experiment properly performed will attest to the conservation of energy, and every home experiment likewise will verify the equations of Maxwell, Lorentz, Einstein and quantum electrodynamics. The mystery is gone. The way the universe works in this particular area is completely understood and there isn't the tiniest nook or cranny left for anyone to discover.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 12:57:45 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 06, 2012, 12:10:04 amis that means... understood inalldetails?Quote from: IanB on August 06, 2012, 12:10:04 amwhat about higgs bosson? the constituent (at least only predicted) of "everything".

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 01:01:06 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 06, 2012, 12:57:45 amBasically, yes.QuoteThe Higg's boson is not part of electromagnetism. It has nothing to do with free energy from magnets and wires.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 01:10:28 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 06, 2012, 01:01:06 amwhy is that? mass create magnetism. mass is constituted by atoms. atoms are constituted by protons and electrons, down to higgs bosson? am i wrong?anyway i never saw the proof of those Maxwell, Lorentz, Einstein in hard paper, so i musnt have faith in themjk.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 01:21:25 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on August 06, 2012, 01:10:28 amYes.QuoteElectricity and electromagnetism are understoodcompletely, with a capital "C". There is nothing left that is mysterious about it. That is how engineers can design electric generators and hard disk drives and microchips and TV transmitters and radars and microwave ovens and cell phones with fractal antennas and who knows what else, and why all that stuff works. It's a done deal. A solved problem. All wrapped up and tied up neatly with a bow on top.If anyone makes a YouTube video claiming to have some clever discovery with motors and generators and magnets and wires, it only proves that (a) they have not studied physics at university level, and (b) they don't have the mental capacity to study physics at university level.

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 01:57:54 am
content: I made a perpetual motion machine once.Two mirrors facing each other.It'd work perfectly if the pesky light didn't escape or get absorbed.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:23:06 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 05, 2012, 07:10:36 pmBut you don't get it. If we didn't have to work, then our reptilian alien overlords wouldn't have any way to keep us enslaved!Yes, sarcasm. Phew!

author: Obi_Kwiet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:28:35 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 05, 2012, 09:10:17 pmThat's not perpetual motion, it's just motion that lasts for a long time compared to us. However, the universe will still be very young compared to it's total lifetime when the earth stops spinning the sun. The sun earth system has a lot of energy and is very efficient, but it can't last forever by a long shot. It is slowing down as we speak.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:38:43 am
content: I think NiHaoMike was pointing out theprincipaldifference between the terms. Something arbitrarily close to perpetual motion could exist, given an arbitrarily good vacuum with of an arbitrarily big size, with a spinning object in the middle. That's an energy preservation ratio or conversion ratio approaching (but in every practical scenario never reaching) 1. That's theoretically possible.Free energy on the other hand means a conversion ratio >1 which is definitely not possible.

author: niky518
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 02:49:47 pm
content: Did someone try this?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:01:51 pm
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 06, 2012, 02:49:47 pmIt's a motor. Anyone can make a motor with coils and magnets. If you are wondering where the battery is, it is hidden.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:03:33 pm
content: 'hidden' at the end of the wire which is badly blurred out.

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:05:37 pm
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 06, 2012, 02:49:47 pmNope..was too busy doing this:

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:10:31 pm
content: niky518, read a good physics book. All your answers are in there.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:26:51 pm
content: i lost my pack of neomedium magnets earlier now i got another pack off ebay. faith i thinki will figure that out when i dealt with reality.

author: Ferroto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 03:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 05, 2012, 09:10:17 pmFalse stars eventually exhaust their energy and energy lost in the form of light will eventually leave the universe never to be used again. Stars will also loose mass as they age which will cause earth to break away from orbit around our sun assuming we haven't turned into a red giant by then which would cause earth to be swallowed up by the sun.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 05:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: Ferroto on August 06, 2012, 03:38:32 pmyou are contradicting with "conservation of energy" law.Quote from: Ferroto on August 06, 2012, 03:38:32 pmsuch statement dictates (as i translate it) 2 things. (1) there's no such thing as "perpetual", only either the universe or the "***". and free energy is actually... "everywhere"! (for our case is the "sun", thats the obvious one)

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 05:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 06, 2012, 12:10:04 amThe Lorenz condition is under close scrutiny at the present due to some work at the university of Geneva, So any one who can detect the longitudinal mode and the temporal mode of photons might also find the answer to free energy. There is only one small difficulty the aerial will need to be longer than the observable universe.

author: niky518
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 06:20:58 pm
content: Here's anotherwatch from 2:24

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 06:46:27 pm
content: This thread and others like it are proof that perpetual stupidity has advanced from hypothesis to fact.

author: madworm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 07:07:58 pm
content: Looks like a very complicated design.I would at least have expected the most obvious thing to do: put it in a vacuum chamber to eliminate air friction. But maybe that was too expensive, although 10^-3 to 10^-4 mbar would have been enough to get rid of most of the drag.The process of building these mechanisms is surely quite rewarding, the desired goal however is out of reach.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 07:57:54 pm
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 06, 2012, 06:20:58 pmwhy did you want us to skip the beginning showing he is a nutter. There is a contradiction. They say it is 80-90% efficient and then say it has to be 101% efficient to be perpetual.Don't confuse perpetual motion with free energy. Our earth spins and goes around the sun in perpetual motion. If you can build a machine with no loss it will be perpetual, that does not mean you will get energy out of it. as soon as you try to extract energy from the system it stops being perpetual.As far as I know there is a law that says that nothing is destroyed and nothing is created, everything is transformed (goes for matter and energy).What about this secret pendulum in the column of the machine, where there is no room for one to swing. Oh didn't he tell you ? there is a giant spring in there that gives off jut enough energy to overcome the losses due to friction of any kind......

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 08:05:25 pm
content: Did you see this one? It looks far far easier to build and has similar "perpetual motion"I suggest the OP go to toys r us and get some parts and solve the world's energy problems!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 08:14:08 pm
content: erm it uses power and they admit it, no dodgy claims. but I like the spare cog hanging out the back

author: KTP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 08:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 06, 2012, 08:14:08 pmDamn it Simon, you just ruined (and debunked) every single one of these perpetual motion claims.What a spoilsport...

author: niky518
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 06, 2012, 09:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 06, 2012, 07:57:54 pmSo what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 12:16:37 am
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 06, 2012, 09:55:57 pmThen build it and make lots of money out if it!!Why is it that people proposing such contraptions were never successful at going to market?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 12:51:04 am
content: To be fair... a perpetual motion machine cannot exist by definition but a machine could exist which gets its energy from somewhere unknown to current science.Such a machine would appear to be a perpetual motion machine until the source of the energy was identified.This possibility means we shouldn't instantly assume every single claim of perpetual motion is wrong, doing so could delay a major scientific discovery.However, it would be safe to say that the chances of finding a legit machine are less than winning the lottery.And the cost of actually investigating every claim would be stupidly expensive.I guess i'm just saying, keep an open mind.

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 01:03:28 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on August 07, 2012, 12:16:37 amThen build it and make lots of money out if it!!Why is it that people proposing such contraptions were never successful at going to market?I could make a cheap and unlimited source of energy however the government would go after me because it uses fission instead of fusion.Pesky anti-nuclear peasants and big industry.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 01:30:30 am
content: Psi - Look we are not talking about phenomena and theories that are at the cutting edge of particle physics. People who are actually taking part in such discussions tend to be employed by the likes of CERN and are not preoccupied with posting shitty pseudo-science youtube videos.So far, all of these contraptions are built on physics that is easily attainable on a human scale and is well understood. And yet, those devices are supposed to be special somehow and draw on physical phenomena that is beyond our understanding.The last time we succeeded to interact with physical phenomena (in some controlled fashion) that is beyond our full understanding required a machine with a price tag of 7.5 billion euros; manned by 2400 full time employees, 1500 part time staff, many of them backed with with a resumes, PhDs and engineering qualifications that is beyond my wildest dreams.Forgive me if my mind is not particularly open in that respect.

author: Things
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 01:43:29 am
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 06, 2012, 09:55:57 pmDunno where you pulled this from, permanent magnet generators can be a good 80% efficient.What these nutjobs really need to be doing is finding new ways to make green energy devices more durable, such as better bearings. The typical service life of a wind turbine is around 20 years, which, in that time, they well and truly pay for themselves, however if you could tack a couple more years lifetime onto them, then we'd really have something going.Power from the wind, sun, ocean, rivers, geothermal etc is all free after the initial investment costs. Extend the lifetimes of the machines and your operating costs are a heap lower too.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 01:59:13 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on August 07, 2012, 01:30:30 amWe are still discovering new things from common household items.Look at the whole sticky-tape produces X-rays thing.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 02:20:19 am
content: It's not new physics that will rewrite textbooks, nor will it change our fundamental understanding of our world. Triboluminescence has been observed for centuries.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 02:27:43 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on August 07, 2012, 02:20:19 amIt doesn't have to be new physics, just something new that may have applications that could change the world.

author: FlyingBrickyard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 02:50:13 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on August 07, 2012, 12:16:37 amEven putting all of that aside, what does itdo?So a ball goes around a track... BFD. How are you going to get anything useful out of that, even if it were 100% efficient? (which it can't be). Even if that were possible, how would it be adapted and applied into something useful without screwing up the delicate balance that allows it to "work"? In what possible way could it scale into anything worthwhile?This is where the reality of thermodynamics rears its head. In short:1. You can't get ahead (i.e. get out more than went in).2. You can't even break even.And I promise you for the video in question, that "pendulum in the base" wasn't. It was some form of power source that was being depleted to keep the whole thing going. The man is a charlatan at best - if we're being generous.He's built an interesting and rather nice piece of kinetic art, but has crossed the line from artist into fraud by attempting to pass it off as something it is not.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 04:04:59 am
content: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/art.htmScroll down to the deceptions of David Jones. Just the name struck me as funny.My belief, the world is interesting enough. We don't need fantasy, conspiracies or any of that other crap. They just lowered a rover on to Mars with cables and flew a capsule like an airplane. Far more interesting than all this BS....mike

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 05:40:25 am
content: Quote from: HardBoot on August 07, 2012, 01:03:28 amI could make a cheap and unlimited source of energy however the government would go after me because it uses fission instead of fusion.Pesky anti-nuclear peasants and big industry.So you have found some unobtanium material that withstands the temperature ? Better let all these secrets out one at a time or we'll never recover from the shock

author: Obi_Kwiet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 06:25:05 am
content: Quote from: niky518 on August 06, 2012, 09:55:57 pmNo it isn't. It's not an engine, it's just storing mechanical energy in a mechanical system. A proper, high efficiency flywheel would put this to shame. Combustion engines have to convert from chemical energy to mechanical energy, which is a pretty inefficient process.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 06:54:11 am
content: oooh don't be too blunt with him, now he has to go and take all of those videos off youtube

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 07:39:24 am
content: The Earth or any other planet are not perpetual motion. The earth's orbit will slowly decay the energy loss is the slowing down of the spin, days are longer now than they were ten million years ago and they will get longer, there is also plasticity heating where the sun's gravity moves the earth crust just like the moon does and causes heat. All you can say is that the store of kinetic energy is exceedingly large and will take a long time to be used up.

author: niky518
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 08:24:45 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 07, 2012, 06:54:11 amCalm down Simon!I am not saying that this things in videos are revolutionary new technology that will change the world...Only just want to hear opinions of others

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 08:51:12 am
content: Opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.It's also pretty worthless to talk about opinions when the subject isn't really open to interpretation. The question is not "is this random youtube video demonstrating actual perpetual motion?" (the answer is always an emphatic "no" - no 'opinion' necessary) - the question can only be "what kind of fraud is being attempted?", and that's usually not a terribly interesting question as there are so many trivial ways in which it could be done.As to the "perpetual motion" of the solar system (or other celestial bodies), as has been pointed out, while that may be on many orders of magnitude more time than we humans are used to, there is nothing perpetual about it. Look at our own moon - that's moving away from us at a rate of about 3-4cm per-year, the energy being bled-off by dragging our oceans around and creating our tides.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 08:54:50 am
content: Yep, and there are other phenomena, such as tidal locking. Ever wondered why we always see our Moon from the same side, and why its rotation period perfectly matches its orbital period? Over aeons of time geological tidal effects between the Earth and the Moon transferred orbital momentum from Moon's body to its rotation, causing deceleration of its orbit and forced the rotation to become more synchronous.IO is slightly larger than our Moon, and yet it is one of the most geologically active body in our solar system. Normally, such a small body would be cold and dead like our boring Moon, but instead IO experiences tidal heating due to Jupiter's gravity, spewing all sorts of interesting things onto its surface. Basically IO is an extreme example of the aforementioned process. It's quite amazing if you think about it. In a nutshell, the energy generated by gravitational interactions is thermally radiated away; i.e. you have this bizarre, slow, elaborate conversion of gravitational interplay into photons!Saturn's satellite system is very weird. Those collection of moons undergo orbital resonance, creating the bands in Saturn's rings, and orbital periods with integer ratios. Again, all of this incurs loss of momentum within the participating bodies.Oh and gravity waves could also decay orbits.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2012, 04:16:34 pm
content: ok I was trying to make a loose comparison and dupe the op into being convinced that something like perpetual motion is not unheard of but it takes special circumstances.