Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Claus1
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 01:42:31 pm
content: Hey. Since most reviews are few years old already i would like to know your opinion. Whats currently best budget scope for around 1000 euros? Still only Rigol vs Siglent? My only need would be a 4 channel scope and at least 100 Mhz BW. Decoding would be nice too.

author: Adrian_Arg.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 02:09:33 pm
content: I own a rigol ds1054z with 100Mhz, I am very happy with it, I bought it in February 2018, today if I had 1000 euros, I would buy the "siglent sds 1204x", since it is new. But I repeat today I do not sell mine, because it reaches me and left over for hobby, electronic and arduino,in spanishyo pose un rigol ds1054zcon 100Mhz, estoy muy feliz con el, lo compre en febrero 2018, hoy si yo tuviera 1000 euros, compraria el el siglent sds 1204x, ya que es nuevo. Pero te repito hoy no vendo el mio, porque me alcanza y sobra para hobby, electronica y arduino,

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 02:27:41 pm
content: Quote from: Claus1 on December 12, 2019, 01:42:31 pmDSO selection is just not that simple !To hack to not ?Mem depth ?Sampling rate ?Display size ?Good FFT ?Max sensitivity ?50 Ohm inputs ?I/O's ?FRA ?And the list goes on and on........

author: Claus1
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 03:46:20 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 12, 2019, 02:27:41 pmIm aware of that. Just wanna know whats best bang for the buck. I was thinking about not hacking since Siglent has some nice ones which doesn't need to be hacked. Rigol also sells scopes already with free upgrades. Anyway i found out that there's really nothing very decent below 1k so i might consider hacking. Rigol has MSO5000 series which could be hacked. Seems best bang for the buck. To be exact i mean Rigol MSO5074. I have never hacked before, but there's 58 pages long topic about it so i should be able to do it. My only consider is that is it still possible today since firmware has been upgraded. If it is i think i will go for it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 05:11:18 pm
content: if i only need 4 channels 100MHz, i'll buy cheapest bang per buck (i will suggest DS1054z because thats all i know), left over money i'll buy knock off salae logic or/and function generator or/and spectrum analyzer...

author: luma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 05:12:16 pm
content: Current firmware on the Rigol MSO5000 is for sure hackable, and we have good reason to believe it will stay that way forever as there are several ways to recover root access to the system at this point. Patches to enable full functionality have typically been available within a day of each new FW release.I have an MSO5074 and I love it. Incredible value for the price.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 07:42:35 pm
content: For the outlay as Luma mentioned its pretty stunning value especially when opened up

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 08:03:12 pm
content: $1000 buys you TWO portable Micsig STO1104 with battery and decoders.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 02:21:52 am
content: In the first place, in terms of the DS1054Z, it isn’t a hack. It is very likely the same procedure the dealers use to enable features. It is dead simple, go to riglol.com and follow along. The only option code to use is DSERI needed 4 more channels, If I was looking at Siglent I would still want 4 channels. I would prefer 200 MHz so the only question is whether to pay the price or unlock a 100 MHz model.The Rigol or one of the Siglents would be my choice. I have the 1054Z

author: Claus1
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 09:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 13, 2019, 02:21:52 amThere isn't a point to buy 200 MHz Siglent, it costs almost 800 euros and it has only 1 GSa/s. Rigol MSO5000 series costs only a bit more with 8 GSa/s and 350 MHz when hacked.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 10:45:25 pm
content: But be sure the firmware is in an acceptable state and you like the way it works. On paper the MSO5000 may look good but if you dive into the nitty gritty you'll find some issues for sure.If you want decoding then look for scopes like the GW Instek GDS1000B or GDS2000E series. Unlike Rigol and Siglent (which decode only what is on screen) these do full memory decoding.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 08:45:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 13, 2019, 10:45:25 pmI fail to see why this is an issue if you know how to get the best from a tool:Quote from: rf-loop on October 14, 2019, 09:03:21 pm

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 09:11:15 am
content: if it will not be you first scope and you plan in the future to move in directions fast signals, I can sell you this one:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-(eu)-keysight-dso6104l-1ghz-lxi-scope-(used)/bang/bucks hard to beat for 1500 Euro.At the end it depends what you wanna do.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 10:19:37 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 16, 2019, 08:45:07 amThat is because you are not an engineer of electronic circuits who needs a tool which works efficiently. Just admit that Siglent doesn't do decoding in the most efficient way possible. This has been pointed out many times before with just as many examples to show why 'decoding only what is on screen' sucks so bad.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 10:33:43 am
content: Simple no competitionMSO 50748 Ghz samplingcapacitive touch big screen 4 channelsHacked to 300 Mhz with all option with only a Pendrivehttp://www.saelig.com/product/mso5074.htmFind on the forum the Saelig discount coupon, and some extra discount will be available

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 10:41:58 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on December 16, 2019, 10:33:43 amProduct looks great....However .. if you consider the "FILL IN THE BLANKS" (w/more money) options..You end up with a pretty expensive one.. When looking something today.. which will be "OBSOLETE" in just few months.Last thing I want is that "FILL IN THE BLANKS" product.Unfortunately common practice nowadays.I want that thing complete.. at that price.Which in couple of months. will be obsoleted..Damn software things.Paul

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 10:57:18 am
content: The Rigol MSO5074 has all the hardware to be the "best 'scope under $1000" by an order of magnitude but they're dragging their feet a bit with the firmware.I've no doubt it will appear but the "big update" we've been promised is taking forever to happen.(and no, it won't prevent hacking ... "hacking" is the method 'scope manufacturers use to sell the exact same 'scope to home and business users at completely different prices)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 11:00:21 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 16, 2019, 10:41:58 amWhy?

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 11:00:54 am
content: Nao tem "FILL IN THE BLANKS", com um pen drive todas as opcoes sao liberadas

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 11:01:37 am
content: And what about $300 range now?

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 11:07:34 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 16, 2019, 11:00:21 amNew hardware...it is been harder even to mount PCs..When you do have a proper hardware which will lastsome CPU/Bus (PCI) generations... things change..New specifications (like PCI/ATX) and new sockets..few months is just enough to have incompatible standardsThis trend now hits the "software/firmware" based hardwareinstruments. Some months later you see a new hardware/firmwarecombination with far more "features" you realized you paid extras...Matter of "shrinking" "cheaper" ASICs with SSDs and reliableCPU/GPU MCUs - each day cheaper and far more capableI could research some examples in the half dozens years..but folks which spent in the >1000 class price range over yearsalready realized that this year almost same features are under 1000Miniaturization combined with increasing software power...paying a software/firmware only plus is no longer a viable optionin months your investment has gone flushed by new optionsPaul

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 01:54:59 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 16, 2019, 11:07:34 amNone of those changes made existing PCs stop working.The same ismoretrue of oscilloscopes.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 02:12:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 16, 2019, 01:54:59 pmThey "almost" stop working as long as this "accelerated deprecated" hardwareno long is supported by what some bizarre minds call "mainstream".. (whatever)You no longer will have the (paid) (closed source) driverswhich is a main piece for market segments like GAMINGand High-End Workstations like Bench InstrumentsDrivers will only match specific "versions" of particular OSwhich "DEPRECATE THE HARDWARE" whenever they wantor need cash flow..GPUs today are the master piece of such deprecated hardwaretry to find a GPU open source driver for latest hardware...ALMOST SAME THING with OS related firmwarein particular for really really bad choice SCOPES and instrumentswhich use MS crappy embed OS.soon you will find your hardware useless deprecatedby the no longer supported "version" of OSSome ARM and RISC choices bundled w/NIX are smarterbut nevertheless they will not escape the accelerated rateof "new features" each year.Just some couple years ago scopes were noteven close to specs of this entering yearIf you paid 3000 on a TOP BRAND onechances are you have this next month under 1000 classw/FFT, DECODING, UNLOCKED BW and suchI pay for hardware - no problems with thatbut pay someone to "UNLOCK" the hardware I have?Not likely.It is a good precaution to consider the fast depreciationof your hardware today. In just few months you can buybetter cheaper complete one...Paul

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 02:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 16, 2019, 02:12:53 pmIt is not really like that. On the cheaper scopes the specs are only better on paper. It it still worth spending more if you take comfort and productivity into account.QuoteTest equipment depreciates faster than a car. It has always been this way. Now some people will say otherwise but that is A) for equipment which is really old or B) for equipment which was really cheap to begin with.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 02:56:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 16, 2019, 02:43:14 pmI am trying to find this point .. each month harder.It was not like that a decade ago and not even thinkable 2 decades ago.You paid for your hardware - never to UNLOCK the paid hardwaresome exceptions were addon cards - but hardware themselves.Today I find myself trying to find cheapest (and complete) possible choicesso I will not regret 6 or 12 months later.I am always away from that pay to UNLOCKAs I already bought a hardwareI don't want at F*** deliberated crippled oneThere are some choices and fortunately some better and cheaper onesare popping.. But still waiting to see if that "FILL IN THE BLANK" option vanishesPaul

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 01:30:01 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 16, 2019, 02:12:53 pmIt was already pointed out to you that the unlock is free.Stop pressing "enter" key before you've finished a sentence, it makes people not want to read your posts even more.Quote from: ebclr on December 16, 2019, 10:33:43 am*450 MHz measured

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 10:17:04 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 17, 2019, 01:30:01 amWhat you think is bad I actually use to organize my head.It is never between sentences. You may try to group that as I do.And I am aware of the so called hacks to "UNLOCK" ..Thing is: You paid for the whole hardware?You should not pay to "UNLOCK" it. By no means.Paid hardware should be functional 100%each logical <enter> forms a distinct idea - organizedno way to change what I do for perhaps 5 decades..Mileage vary - core forum principlePaulHelp

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 10:37:47 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 17, 2019, 10:17:04 amI wholeheartedly disagree.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 10:42:31 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 17, 2019, 10:37:47 amAnd I can understand that.After all it is just another business model...But I am not willing to pay a locked hardware..twice or more timesPaul

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 11:00:36 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 17, 2019, 10:42:31 amJust relax. Chill. Nobody's asking you to payanything.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 12:02:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 17, 2019, 11:00:36 amQuite the opposite ...Actually after something around 3m of researchthis month I received another one for my ever growing pile of bench stuffComplete - no UNLOCK things - 100% working scopeBut this "border line" where working hardware and bundled software meetsare getting harder and harder to fit a candidate list where you will notregret 12m later wasted moneyOtherwise we will buy "shells" like USB scopes where you canupload (reflash) even third part firmware..I really like this model rather the UNLOCK oneYou buy a SHELL and you may have options toselectable firmware including third part compatible ones(think Hantek 6022 with sigrok - I use it just fine both ways)Empty bit complete shell - better than UNLOCK gizmos IMHOjust my mind speakingPaul

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 12:13:17 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 17, 2019, 12:02:32 pmNow everyone is wondering what you bought... So which scope did you buy?

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 12:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 17, 2019, 12:02:32 pmWhile this would be great, it's just not a profitable business model. Across many markets in various product categories the "Product as a Service" model is becoming the norm. The hardware is commodity and the software will be leased to you. Business wants a continuous income stream, and since they can't force you to buy a new scope every year (even though they try their hardest, planned obsolescence will only be tolerated to a certain point) they can make you continuously pay to use it through licensing or recurring maintenance fees.Get used to it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 01:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 17, 2019, 12:02:32 pmWhy would you regret it later?It works exactly the same on day 365 as it did on day 1. If day 1 was OK then why not day 365?

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 01:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 17, 2019, 01:28:50 pmBecause... in due time due the fast pace of changes..You will buy a pretty better one for less.Border line is getting tight - after over 3 months of researchto do a simple scope purchase I can tell you it was a headacheto decide which model would overdue and provide best cost benefit ratesThis month I got one after such research..I can tell you for sure chances I will regret the choice were minimizedAlthough at the expense of a considerable time inthinking considering and comparing choicesPaul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 01:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on December 17, 2019, 12:53:41 pmNop. While having choices I rather prefer to consider all optionsbest bit for the bucksIn a ideal world people (aka small group of board) would live from rents and licenses.The world I live has nothing related to ideal.The paid firmware for empty shells make more sense (to <me>)rather than paying for a complete dis-functional hardware crippledby design with 25% of options ( although paid in full )Like buying a car where the motor and wheels would be optional...( CAR AS A SERVICE .. or rolling as a service...)My choice for latest bench gizmo was based on that simple ideaI am paying for hardware - 100% functionalEventually I pay for a shell (Hantek 6022) and I can payfor specialized firmware. It makes sense.This border line is getting trickyPaul

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 01:54:46 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 17, 2019, 01:42:59 pmBut you had the value of using an oscilloscope for a year.Just like shoes. They wear out and you have to buy more, that's a 100% loss!We buy them because they add value to our life for some time.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 01:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 17, 2019, 01:54:46 pmThings here are far more complicated than that.Prices you see in EBAY and ALI are easily triplicatedTwice the price the norm triple sometimes due to shippingTaxes are just insanely highSo ... the considerations go far deep into the cost x time x income rate.Not simple - I assure you - I have spent over 3m of headaches like thisHaving to superimpose OVER COSTS on your purchasegoes just as an insane optionPaul

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 02:46:38 pm
content: You just can not compare your situation and condition with the OP.You live in Brazil, where T&M is hard to find, even used and expensive, imported stuffs are even worst, that probably made you ended up with Hantek scope.To be honest, that brand is not very highly regarded among oscilloscope's brands."IF" you have choices like people living in developed country, and with many options in front of you, this will surely change your perspective.The "OP" lives in Germany, presumably German, and also presumably the gap of "valuing" a 1K Euros is quite large (imo) compared to common Brazilian.Imo, you just can't keep forcing your point of view, as its not universally applicable.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 02:54:14 pm
content: BTW, where is the OP? (I think there are a bunch of bots laying around that, from time to time, post the magical question: "what's the best scope option now that we are 7 days and 12 hours away from xmas?")

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 03:11:01 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 17, 2019, 02:46:38 pmTrue. Taxes are 60% + 20% +6% (all 3 required) plus $5 of extra costsMinimum = almost 100% tax - may have insurance and shipping extras.Quote from: BravoV on December 17, 2019, 02:46:38 pmAnd i did not. I just answered with proper relevant argumentsotherwise there is no way to understand.And BTW the HANTEK is the best example I could see.I do own 2 Hanteks aside some other stuff.They do a pretty good job for the value.However the consideration of paying for aFULL DIS_FUNCTIONAL HARDWARE (you pay 100% the hardware)versus100% FUNCTIONAL one. (may be shell + firmware)(with alternatives)is more than adequate and relevantJust keep those 2 things in place:- my reasons with arguments- external factors - like taxes and OVER COSTSYou see .. real-world issues just will not allow that"RENT" or "AS SERVICE" or cloud .. monthly feesNot when the thing - the issue - is really hardware.There are some folks trying to put all stuff into the "AS SERVICE"like rents or monthly fees.. The real-world (across borders) justdoes not function that way - never will.Such rent model is naive idealized and localized visionof owners or tenants - some boss with idealized desired income.Just keep the 2 things in place - my arguments -and the pointshardware should be functional - simple as thisPaul

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2019, 07:48:27 pm
content: OP, did you check Rigol clearance bin? Sometimes they have a good deal here and there.https://www.rigol.eu/clearance/Quote from: PKTKS on December 17, 2019, 03:11:01 pmI am not entirely sure I see your point. The non-tangible part of the product (software) is still responsible for 80-90% of the development effort and is as fundamental to the product as the hardware it runs - you can't dissociate the costs tied to each part. Also, a reputable manufacturer will spend extra time and efforts to develop the product to meet the maximum specifications before releasing it to the market, thus narrowing the difference between the top and the bottom models in terms of product development cycle. Unfortunately the current trend is to release alpha or beta quality products to the market and fix the issues with updates,especiallywith second or third Tier brands.Your feeling that you are paying much more for extra hardware is not considering a significant part of its development cost. Sure, over time the software costs are amortized and hardware starts to become more significant. But that is where we enter the continuum of development efforts, either for new products or for new features (and bug fixes - why not?) to existing products.Cheap microprocessors and FPGAs blurred the definition of how finished a product really is. Nowadays you can't say that you buy a product fully furnished with all capabilities from day one. The tangible part of a mainstream product is usually a quasi generic platform or is comprised of smaller reference designs (usually provided by the device manufacturers) that are tied together to create a product. Some areas of the T&M market are becoming mainstream (oscilloscopes, for example). Sure, the hardware can perform a lot more functions at a faster capacity, but it is far from being dysfunctional. If the software is well implemented, the hardware is fully functional for the capabilities/specs purchased by the buyer. As an example of old days, if you buy a used Tektronix TDS754 and flip a few resistors you convert it to a TDS784. Is the TDS754 a dysfunctional hardware?Also, for a product you already purchased, the continuum also works in your benefit especially in high import tax places like Brasil. Internet is mostly void of borders; you can purchase an entry level model, pay taxes over it, and then purchase the extra options electronically with only transaction fees. I guarantee are much lower than the 100% paid crossing the border.(one aspect is that, if you go through the bureaucratic proceedings, the import taxes for test equipment in Brasil are much lower than the 60% of finished goods across the border - the issue is paying a broker to plow through the paperwork or do it yourself).Quote from: PKTKS on December 17, 2019, 03:11:01 pmI have a four year old oscilloscope that reached maturity (no more firmware updates from the manufacturer) and is a fine instrument without the problems that plagued its early days. That's it: no hidden features left to be discovered, no monthly payments or other upkeep costs, no need to verify compatibility with hardware upgrades, nothing. It is just a means to an end, which is the expected functionality of a tool.

author: Kawakneurder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 04:53:58 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on December 16, 2019, 11:07:34 amI wholeheartedly disagree. Even scopes from 30-40 years ago are perfectly usable now for analog stuff. For digital stuff, scopes 10 years ago are still very usable. Sure, newer models might be slicker, have a bigger screen etc, but I think it would be very unlikely that the scope you buy now is replaced to such an extent next year, that you'd consider it unusable.Staying on topic though, I think I agree with most that the Rigol MSO5074 is the best bang for buck under $1000. If you go lower in price of course the venerable DS1054Z. Rigol just offers unmatched price/performance ratio that only Siglent seems to come close to. There's something to say about Siglent, I think it's mostly personal preference.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2019, 10:23:12 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 18, 2019, 07:48:27 pmApart the support considerations (just to have background floor)..My point is very simple - indeed as explained it took me 3monthsof comparisons and research to "DECIDE" which model brand purchase.The whole <point> summary is:= Trends today of increasing cheaper FPGAs and hadrdware..+ fast pace of new "releases"= lead market products to force you buying a full hardware (paid in full)- (negative) is that this hardware is being more and more LOCKED- forcing you to pay OVER COSTS of "features" (although hardware paid in full)Controversy purchase decision is that:= you (STILL) can buy a fully functional hardware (no UNLOCK)+ positive is YOU WILL NOT MESS WARRANTY using unlock hacks+ positive NO OVER COSTS - hardware 100% functional (no unlock)And 10y ago FPGAs were too expensive for this modelThey are fast becoming cheaper and the software offerseach year a much improved feature and performance floor.That lead the question (border line) which model suityou day by day use - cost x benefit and how fast deprecatedyour purchase will be in dozen months.It took me 3m to match my purchase requirementsDecision being UNLOCKED with no hacks 100% warrantyno over costs and lower price ..But your requirements may be higher...10 or 20 y ago hardware were most likely the decision factorToday the firmware+options are too fuzzy to clear decisionHope it clears the point of decision - it took me 3m of hassle and comparisonPaul