Are FTDI drivers still destroying counterfeit FT232 chips? And FTDI alternatives - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:47:51 am
content: This was a big story a few years ago and I wonder how it ended up.FTDI are currently shafting their customers, like most, but worse than most. You have to pay a bounty / extortion fee of 30% extra to get chips. That's quite a lot of money, because the chips aren't cheap to start with.In the current situation we are likely to see counterfeit chips turning up. It is a perfect time for the chinese to jump in.But if a driver basically destroys your product, that's quite a liability.And there is no second source, or even a compatible alternative that I know of. There is Prolific which is a crap company with crap drivers and no support.

author: Dabbot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:18:25 am
content: IIRC the latest drivers don't brick the chip, but send "NON GENUINE DEVICE FOUND!" via the tx line and refuse to function.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:45:30 am
content: That's interesting.I have for years been shipping my product with drivers on a CD. They are mostly from the 2012-2016 time frame. The 2012 ones are for winXP which is still used in industrial control. But most customers chuck away the CD and use Windows Update, and I wonder what that driver does?What timeframe were the "destroying" drivers?I imagine they just reprogram the EEPROM; they can't damage the silicon. Still, that will stop your product working.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:49:07 am
content: Afair they zeroed the VID/PID in eeprom

author: Robotec
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:04:51 am
content: Well in a recent years one of the things I've doing is changing their chips for CP2104 from silicon labs, costs half and works flawlessly.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:16:22 am
content: Interesting. I have also seen the CH341. It is about 1/3 of the FTDI price, although as with much chinese stuff it is hard to find pricing so I am basing this on Aliexpress.The CP2104 does not appear to be cheaper than the FT232.

author: Dabbot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:42:56 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on August 23, 2022, 09:45:30 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ftdi-driver-kills-fake-ftdi-ft232/The bricking drivers were pulled by FTDI due to the backlash, in favor of drivers which simply refused to work when they detected a counterfeit chip.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:53:00 am
content: You got theses drivers with windows updates too, now i'm not sure if msoft has blocked them from installing? since i use genuine ones, i don't knowPast a certain driver version you had theses problemsLots of people downgraded the drivers and used FTPROG to recover the crippled vid/pidlets not revive this "FTDI discution" please

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:00:41 am
content: I had a more specific question. That 71 page thread is not "readable".Sounds like the 2014-2016 timeframe. The problem is that reverting to pre-2014 drivers (should you get hit with this) is an option only with WinXP and possibly win7.

author: Dabbot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on August 23, 2022, 11:00:41 amMy apologies. For some reason I linked that thread and didn't mention the timeframe, which was my intention in that reply. Derp.I assume the bricking drivers won't be prevalent now, since they were automatically downloaded, then largely replaced by more recent, tamer versions. Even then, if you'd rather not deal with it, your safest bet is an alternative to FTDI.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 01:10:37 pm
content: I also use the CP2104 (and related devices from Silicon Labs), precisely because of the way FTDI tried to use their customers as pawns in their own intellectual property dispute. No way am I going to risk selling a product which works on my desk, using the driver installed on my PC, but doesn't work or even gets bricked when my customer plugs it in to a machine with a different driver version.Fortunately I've found the CP2104 very reliable, and the Windows driver is much better than FTDI's. With FTDI, when I copy and paste a large amount of text to a serial terminal, it gets transmitted in bursts with gaps in between. Silicon Labs' driver doesn't have this problem, which makes for a much better customer experience when transferring things like settings, calibration data, or firmware updates.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 01:34:04 pm
content: QuoteThat's interesting. It must be something in the driver rather than in the chip, because USB isveryfast.What kind of 1k+ price are people here seeing on the CP2104?QuoteThat, surely, is a perpetual risk with anybody's VCP chip. Or any chip which gets drivers via windows update and which gets counterfeited.The basic problem is that while FTDIs drivers don't work with fake FTDI chips (because FTDI are checking for some feature which the counterfeiters failed to emulate) it is just as possible for anyone else to do the same thing in their drivers. Silicon Labs could do the same thing; in fact I would fully expect them to do so! Have they already not done so? Until you build 10000 boards with fake Silicon Labs chips you won't knowYour only salvation will be that Silicon Labs have winXP-win11 drivers right now so you could archive them, but 99% of customers will chuck away your CD and will use the windows update driver which will report your product as dud. If I was in that business I would obviously not trash the customer's product (because that is totally unethical, as well as legally risky) but I would make damn sure my drivers (which probably cost me 6 digits, at Western programmer rates, over the years, testing on all the various versions of windoze etc) donotwork with fake versions of my silicon.The real issue is not the driver writer's action; it is the counterfeit industry.

author: Robotec
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 03:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on August 23, 2022, 10:16:22 amMy bad I was speaking from memory, it was CP2102 In a product redesign, I was quoted 6 dollars per FT232RL, For CP2102N-24 version we paid 2 dollars per unit. 1300 boards batch so 5200 dollars with that change.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 03:17:15 pm
content: $6 - you were totally ripped off. FTDI price is more like $2-3 for a few k and that is via franchised distis. And I see a similar price for Silicon Labs.There is no free lunch. You buy American and pay a few bucks, or you buy chinese and take the risk (absolutely no idea where they come from, real or fake, the political risk, poor or zero communication, no comeback ever) but 3x cheaper

author: Robotec
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 03:51:45 pm
content: well , as anything with the semi shortage that is the official price but good luck finding stock in the thousands, this is where the price went up, CP2102 in the other hand is quite available from Digi key from example.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on August 23, 2022, 08:47:51 amFTDI developed a product so good that others copied it. They aren't shafting anyone. Simple supply and demand says that if demand goes up price goes up...also, if supply goes down price also goes up. Start badmouthing the counterfeiters not the innovators who created the product in the first place.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:20:41 pm
content: CP2104. One less potential problem to worry about!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:40:51 pm
content: Note that (AFAIK anyway) the only FTDI chips that got ever counterfeited were the FT232R. If you're using any other reference from FTDI, I don't think you'd have anything to worry about. This chip got counterfeited both because it was very popular AND simple enough. Many of their other interface solutions are much more involved and thus much harder to clone. Even if all you need is a USB-to-serial interface, I'd recommend going for the much newer FT230X or similar. There is no clone that I'm aware of, they are good and have extra features that you may find useful.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:59:58 pm
content: QuoteI will look at that seriously. It has drivers for XP and upwards, but today it will mostly load via windows update.Believe it or not I have lots of customers who are on site with a laptop and no internet and they want drivers supplied, which means an 8cm CD.I don't think it is cheaper though.QuoteThe FT232RL (internal EEPROM) is being pushed by FTDI as the chip to use, replacing the FT232BL (external EERPOM). Are we talking about the right parts? These two are supposed to be compatible at driver level.QuoteThat is a business ethics debate, and we disagreeI don't kick a man when he's down, or over a barrel, even though technically thatisthe best time to kick a manThere are many sayings e.g. be careful who you f--k over on your way up, because you will have to kiss their bum on your way back down later on.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 11:01:04 pm
content: here we go ..........

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 01:11:01 am
content: Oh and the FT230X is actually available through several distributors. Probably time to forget about the FT232R. Just a thought.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 01:20:37 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on August 23, 2022, 09:59:58 pmR series was superseded by X series more than 10 years ago. X is about 1/2 the price of R. Can't do 5V out, but otherwise equivalent.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 01:21:03 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 23, 2022, 09:40:51 pmTo me it's more that they have proven themselves to be a loose cannon. I don't want to be in the line of fire the next time they go off.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 06:41:46 am
content: This is really interesting.I've been running the FT232BL in 3 products for about 15 years.The UK disti is saying I should move to FT232RL which is the new device. This device is quite expensive.Just looked up the FT230X and it is indeed a lot cheaper than either of the above. No availability until end of the year but that's fairly normal with FTDI currently.So what is going on? Why is the disti not mentioning the FT230X? I also see FTDI have an online shop, showing prices lower than I am paying right now on 4kLooking at the drivers page, it could be that the VCP drivers are the same as for the FT232BL, because they list the 2012-dated winXP ones also.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 06:50:02 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on August 23, 2022, 08:47:51 amProlific is even better than FTDI.They solved the problem of clone chips by completely blocking support for old versions of PL2303 on Windows 8 and later. There is literally an "if" for that in the code, because the same driver binary works with old chips on older Windows, which they apparently have some contractual obligations to support.Of course, cloners updated their products to be protocol compatible with the new PL2303HXD, so...Also funny, some (if not all) of the HXD clones don't even support HXD's highest baud speeds. They just present themselves as HXD, to avoid the driver drama.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 07:47:10 am
content: I have had a product which uses the PL2303 for about 20 years. Last few left... Win7 or lower, indeed. AFAICT the OEM price of it in China is of the order of $0.30. I had the product built in China; something I stopped a few years ago due to the "business practices" there.I never went for the HXD because Prolific never replied to any comms. FTDI offered an easy way to uniquely serialise the product, so it came up on the same COM port whichever USB port it was plugged into.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 08:05:11 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on August 24, 2022, 07:47:10 amMaybe you never used the HXA eitherBTW, all PL2303 still work on Linux of course.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 01:26:25 pm
content: This has been a really helpful thread.Does anyone know if theFT230Xuses the same windows drivers as the FT232 family? It looks like it does, because on the FTDI website it lists an XP driver from 2012.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 08:28:58 pm
content: I got a reply from FTDI saying the FT230X uses the same drivers as the FT232.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 08:44:52 pm
content: Thought so.