can a retaining ring be bootleg 'carburized'?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 09:06:50 pm
content: I have a bunch of retaining rings in something I am restoring.They are this type:https://www.heritageparts.com/Manufacturers/Hobart/HOBART-RETAINING-RING/p/HOBRR-006-23?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtvPjBRDPARIsAJfZz0p5pHFnJMKrAGn05KfzvDcJ_2UlwEVBaCCyCzICCJ4QhBClQU263QYaAlLVEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.dsI don't want to buy more and they are degraded with corrosion. Being as there is no good way to protect them without plating, I thought I would try the blacksmithing trick of getting them hot and dipping them in oil.Now, supposedly its OK to do this for a bolt. These guys are not holding anything, more like position placement of a shaft.A circlip seems to flex more then a bolt.Will this destroy them?They are meant to align shafts on a cheap aluminum jack. I will also be trying anodizing the other parts. It has something like a 20 pound capacity and its not meant for anything safe.I think in the video he heats it too much though, I thought getting it straw colored was enough.After their quench coated, can you maybe reheat them to make it soft again? Will they lose springiness?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 09:41:12 pm
content: Circlips are springs. They are hardened high carbon steel with a spring temper. If you get a spring too hot it will lose its temper, and angry springs don't work, anymore. So an oil patine is perhaps not as practical as say an acid based patina or parkerization or bluing.Also, why do you call this "carburizing?" The circlip is already high carbon. The reason to do an oil patina is to add a protective passivated layer. Not to increase the carbon content. There are surface carburization processes which produce a highly corrosion resistant surface (nitride carburezation), but the carburezation is a red herring to this application. My spelling check is exploding, BTW. I don't know how to spell any of these fancy words.ToT explains the actual chemical reaction, very succinctly, in about as much depth as most human beings need to know.https://youtu.be/cZ93-SlAUeE?t=983linked a few seconds before he flashes the insider secret chemical formula onscreen. Get ready to pause it if you want to write it down for future reference.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 10:29:50 pm
content: i thought someone on this forum said carbon content of the steel increases when its red hot and dipped in oil through migration some howit can't be too much different then keeping it in red hot coal, i mean it might be very thin but stillits not a low temperature reaction, I think you are reacting the hydrocarbon directly to carbon when it meets the red hot surface.when I see people do it, they often keep dipping it back in the oil and reheating. I assume that so long it has a carbon coat you can keep it heated in the atmosphere so long the carbon does not vaporize off. I assume it has very good surface contact compared to heating it in coals. I think the oil gets into all the pores and turns into carbon there and is slightly absorbed.Can you mess with the surface steel composition slightly to give it a bit of corrosion resistance and then turn it back into the hardness required for a cerclip to work?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 10:38:57 pm
content: I called it carburization because thats the term used. I.e. a caruburzing flame can be adjusted on a welder.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizing_and_reducing_flamesThe reducing flame is the flame with low oxygen. It has a yellow or yellowish color due to carbon or hydrocarbons which bind with (or reduce) the oxygen contained in the materials processed with the flame.The reducing flame is also called the carburizing flame, since it tends to introduce carbon into the molten metal.I don't know if it is still introduced when its just red hot for a while. Maybe the video does not show it, but typically they dip it in oil, burn it red hot, then dip it in oil.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 11:05:52 pm
content: Yeah, you can probably get some carbon into the steel with various methods. The old way to make steel was to seal the steel in an air tight box with organic materials, like leather or charcoal. Then heat the box for an extended period of time. If you repeated dip hot steel in oil, you might increase the carbon. If it's high to begin with, I think you might decrease it.Either way you slice it.... go back and read your own OP. What is it you originally (purportedly) set out to do? And why are we here, now?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 11:12:13 pm
content: can getting or removing carbon into a cerclip increase its corrosion resistance substantial with some kind of process afterwards to get it back to acceptable working conditions as a position retaining ring (this thing will work fine without them).I am just going to drill holes in the pins and bend some loops of wire otherwise. This will look a little better. It's shit because you don't have nice set screw based spacers or room to make them. Structurally its complete overkill.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 11:29:33 pm
content: QuoteI don't understand your obsession with carbon content. If you increase or decrease the carbon content substantially, you won't have high carbon spring temper-able steel, anymore. Sure, you can redo the heat treat a number of times, but in a piece of steel this small I think you will leach a significant amount of carbon out each time you heat it to critical in a regular atmosphere. Do you have an oxy acetylene torch? No you don't.QuoteThis is the perfect situation to learn with. Start with no extra/expendable parts. Refuse to buy more, even if they cost 3 cents. Then think up some exotic way to destroy the original parts you have. Then in the end, just obsessively polish them and put the thing back together like we all know you were going to do to begin with.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 11:57:49 pm
content: I am asking if the alloy can be modified to suit my purposes. When the circlip was built it was probably meant for stronger force loads. I am asking if you can trade off its strength some how to for corrosion resistance while still being able to snap it on.And I find it interesting to learn about what will happen. I can buy 10 new complete units if I wanted to.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2019, 02:14:46 am
content: QuoteAs long as you are never going to actually do it, the answer to everything you ever ask is a resounding theoretical yes. Your armchair research already has all the answers you want. You already understand it, perfectly. There is never anything lost in your translation or understanding, or which has practical limitations.If anyone offers experience or advice based on your initial post, they are guaranteed an immediate reply that details the various ways in which they are completely missing the point of your ever-shifting secret criteria and objective, even though you clearly outlined it in the OP. Or an instant followup question that suggests they don't understand the topic at hand nearly as well as you do and just aren't thinking about it on as high a level of understanding and thought.So to cut to the chase, yes, you are intelligent and awesome and it's amazing how your mind works.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2019, 06:15:09 am
content: Dipping a hot circlip in oil will not cause it to appreciably carburize. Even with legit case hardening material (basically carbon powder) the steel needs to be completely surrounded by the carbon and heated and soaked at temperature for the carbon to diffuse to any useful depth. I would recommend that you don't put a torch flame anywhere near a circlip that isn't destined for the garbage can. If you ruin the temper the clip will bend when you install it rather than spring back as it should. A loose circlip is about as useful as tits on a bull. Remove the bulk of the rust with a scraper or wire wheel then drop the clips into boiling water for 10 minutes. That will convert the red rust to black.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2019, 07:09:07 am
content: https://youtu.be/V_Mp1fNzIT8

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2019, 08:55:32 am
content: ^Just like making pigs-in-a-blanket. Don't forget the flour and salt!*self-censored with apologies to the OP for my off-topic antics.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2019, 09:05:11 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on March 04, 2019, 09:41:12 pmThat just made my month!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2019, 05:07:25 pm
content: Lol these rings are so bad i need to fold em over after putting them on the shaft.When everything else was polished rereamed and cleaned and oiled it runs really good so they will stay with the old rings for now.