About "cheap Chinese junk" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:18:17 am
content: Ah… About “cheap Chinese Junk”.At times, I post counter points when I see fellow forum members just dismiss their products as cheap junks off-handily, and did so overly off-handed. Here is an article that made the same point I did and did so a lot better than I did.We dismiss them too easily.“The Far-Eastern firms have a major advantage: established competitors in the West usually don't take them seriously, in some cases until it's too late.” FromDER SPIEGEL“Brand Expansion: China's Race to Conquer World Markets.“ The article by-line is “Chinese firms have embarked on a quest to conquer the world market. Several have already done so, with the help of Western know-how. Established rivals are making the mistake of underestimating them -- until it's too late.”http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/chinese-brands-expanding-into-world-markets-a-942094.htmlI found itparticularly poetichow Pearl River Piano took over the market from Yamaha. The “(1) partnering with established western firm, (2) learn, (3) dissolve partnership, and (4) take the lead” is right from the Japanese play book back when they took over a lot of our (USA/western world) stuff – from electronics to cars.Rick

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:11:11 am
content: Complacency kills you slowly.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 05:18:22 pm
content: I don't see anything here that's news, but I did get a good chuckle out of the line "with the help of Western know-how"

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 05:47:44 pm
content: For high quality items you pay a high quality price.The Chinese are able to make high quality products, but these products will not be cheap.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 07:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 05:18:22 pmYup, standing on the shoulder of giants, one can see far. They were on top for a long time and now we are. It is smart of them to do learn from us.If the legend is true, I am sure Chinese were chuckling too when they see "Italians Cuisine" for without Marco Polo importing pasta and the techniques of how to make noodles from the Chinese, there would not have been spaghetti and Italian Bistro would be rather different today.For so many years, China has led the world in technology and living standard. Forget gun powder, China invented the Cross Bow 1300 years before the west has it. They were living in houses when "people in the west" were running naked in forest.They were on top for a long time. Now we are. They felt from top to near bottom, so can we.Humble is an attribute that allows us to see the ability of our adversaries. The lack there of deprive us the very ability and knowledge to compete effectively.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 07:27:08 pm
content: The Chinese also had decimal multiplication tables when the rest of the Western world was barely capable of counting over 10 without using toes. They had the mathematical concept of zero which was the biggest advance in mathematics in the western world, the Romans could not understand that not having something was a valid number.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:01:23 pm
content: Rigol and Lenovo are two companies I would certainly not associate with "Chinese junk" and an example of what quality companies can make, even though the average quality of products from China is poor.There's an interesting line from BTTF which shows how Japan turned from "typical Japanese junk" (1950s odd) to "Japan makes the best stuff"!In 1955, while fixing the time circuits, Doc sneers and remarks, "No wonder this circuit failed; it says 'Made in Japan'." Marty replies, "What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan."I think that the tide is turning and China is becoming even more important, but they need to nail down the corruption and legislation problems or they will be forever stuck in the "crap" bin.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:02:34 pm
content: What made me chuckle was the innocent way in which "with the help of Western know-how" was expressed. Most of that help was involuntary.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:09:19 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 08:02:34 pmMost of it was given freely by those with short term profit in mind, not actually realising that teaching others to make the goods for you will eventually lead to them cutting out what they see as a very unneeded middle man and go direct to the customer after a while. As well the short term thinking closed the factories and actively lost the know how that they had in a chase for short term profit.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 05:18:22 pmand when they combine that with Chinese know-how, low wages is their trump cardhave you ever been to a Chinese museum? they have abilities, since 5000 yearsand in some sectors, they are improving on Western know-howgot to remember, the Chinese invented the compass, gunpowder, paper money, paper making, printing, the rudder, were in the bronze age while westerners were still in the stone ageif you rely on a supremacy fallacy, or think you're entitled, you'll find yourself on the tail endand for 2013judging by what's happening in education in the USA since 2009, you're even further behind and completely off the mapwow, look at Findland 2009, but dropped since, oh well.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 09, 2014, 08:09:19 pmNo, *some* of it was gotten that way - and I have no sympathy at all for those dumb enough to let that happen for the sake of profit. But much of it was copied directly from products that were never produced in china. And that's why I find the innocent description amusing.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:21:32 pm
content: The education system here is crowing about a 74% pass rate, without saying that the pass mark is 30% to 40%, that more than half of all pupils do not complete school.That some was gotten by observation of what was freely available is another thing.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:24:16 pm
content: Quote from: staxquad on January 09, 2014, 08:14:21 pmI find this argument entertaining too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing the "superiority" of the USA. We're head straight to the crapper in my opinion. But with regards to history to date, if the chinese are so intellectually capable, and they were 5000 years ahead of us (the USA obviously didn't even exist 5000 years ago), why did they not dominate the world for all of that time and still? We should have been the world's sweat-shop while china dominated the planet, but we never were. Obviously there's more to the equation.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 08:24:16 pmExactly. Thank you for the observation.

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:35:12 pm
content: Because some philosophers told them to burn their entire merchant fleet, some 600 years ago. So instead of discovering America, they built walls..

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:37:32 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 08:24:16 pmthe Qing Dynasty (the Chinese built walls to keep them out, the Qing ended the Chinese Ming Dynasty, one of the greatest)imperialists, occupation and exploitation (Germans, British, Portuguese, Japanese, French, Russians)opium wars (British)KMTthe gang of 4sanctions

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:40:39 pm
content: Quote from: Gribo on January 09, 2014, 08:35:12 pmOK, so they shot themselves in the foot. Sounds like a silly excuse to me, but lets give that credit for the past 600 years. Still leaves 4400 years when they should have dominated the world (talking in economic terms here).

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:29:28 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 08:24:16 pmThere's a faulty assumption implicit in this that "progress" of human societies is ever upward without end. But history shows that human societies, empires and technical prowess rises and falls, moving in cycles.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:31:48 pm
content: For 4400 years they were stable mostly....... People were born, lived, died and the centuries blurred into each other, with a few educated people keeping things together and not advocating much change from generation to generation, while looking inward all the time.

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:56:44 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on January 09, 2014, 09:29:28 pmI don't think I used the word "progress" anywhere in my comment. They've had 5000 years to demonstrate their might through all of those cycles. In which did they dominate the world economically (which is the implied topic of this thread)?

author: JoeyP
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 10:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 09, 2014, 09:31:48 pmSo they met the minimum standard for human existence. Congratulations for that. It's exactly in keeping with my experiences with chinese vendors. They (the vendors) have *never* exceeded expectations. Even the simplest quality details must be spelled out, or the quality won't be there. My observation is that there's no intrinsic work ethic which says "do it the best that I can do". It's "do the minimum that will get past the inspector". I'm sometimes amazed at the extreme extent of this philosophy.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 10:52:58 pm
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 08:24:16 pmYou are not wrong. While US congress is treating China as "foe", the old US model is still the big goal that the Chinese communist party trying to achieve and they are progressing slowly there as it is a big country with too many people. Sun and alike particularly like "for the people, by the people, of the people" that was missing in the Old Chinese system.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 12:01:32 am
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 10:02:34 pmOf course they don't do more than is required. When their profit margin is two peanuts they don't sacrifice one of them to do a better job than is required, just the opposite they will constantly push and test the limits of what is required trying to make a 3rd peanut.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 01:35:18 am
content: There was a time when "Made in Japan" was laughed at. There was a time when "Made in Japan" was admired. China is... in between.They had the largest economy in the world from the decline of Rome until late into the Renaissance... probably over 1000 years of economic dominance. No one else can even come close (maybe the Egyptians).

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 01:35:46 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on January 10, 2014, 12:01:32 am+1 , you pay peanut, you got monkey.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 01:58:57 am
content: Quote from: JoeyP on January 09, 2014, 10:02:34 pmfar from that, they had art, literature, philosophy, food, clothing, porcelain, furniture, metallurgy in a refined state for thousands of years and it's still prevalent todaywhat will be the result of their dominance in math and science for a few more decades?manufacturers build according to specificationsgive the Chinese the right specifications and they will land on the moon

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 10:31:59 am
content: QuoteAnd (though I haven't studied any Chinese history) a lovely system for making sure all those luxurious items were owned/enjoyed by the appropriate upper classes. China is big; they probably had their hands full controlling their own people(s), without worrying about conquering the rest of the world.

author: nihilism
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 12:23:05 pm
content: Why does "cheap Chinese junk" exist?The answer is you, the consumer.The number one factor deciding consumer purchases is cheapness.China a capable of doing cheap well.Labor is cheap in China.They are good at the whole "economy of scale" thing.Workplace safety and health is probably not the same priority that it is in the western world.Availability of counterfeit components and willingness to use them.And probably a dozen more reasons.So, you, the consumer, wants cheap? China gives you cheap.If they couldn't sell it, they wouldn't make it. Just like the Australian car industry.

author: Terabyte2007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 01:11:24 pm
content: China is capable of doing cheap, but this does not equal poor quality product. The word "Made in China" has become accepted terminology for "Cheap Junk". This is not always the case. I deal with electronic product made right here in the US and have found upwards of 35% failure rates and very sketchy manufacturing. Some of the similar product being produced in China is far better. It really boils down to respectable companies that consider QA as a big part of their products. These companies exist in China and all over the world including here in the US. Considering the massive amount of product coming from China, more times than not you will find yourself dealing with so called cheap chinese junk. This is inevitable considering the state of the market in China.The old adage, "You get what you pay for". Is true to a point, I have seen this fail a couple times with my purchases in the past on extremely high dollar items that QC has failed to produce a quality product. And on the flip-side, have been pleasantly surprised with a cheaper product from China which has had extremely good QC. There really is not a black & white answer anymore, maybe 10-15 years ago you could be reasonable assured that the product coming from China was sub-standard but not anymore.Many consumers buy on price alone. This is a recipe for disaster, I know many people are on a fixed budget but shopping for gear based on the cheapest price will not always yield a quality product. Buying gear based on reputation, reviews, specifications and QC of the manufacturer is a much better option.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 01:48:53 pm
content: It is changing but the change is especially hard for the Chinese makers that want to compete on quality. It is tough for them at home, and to overseas. I bought my LED tube from an online supplier who tried to brand it as a Singapore product because they find "Made In China" a liability ver difficult to overcome. They gave 3 years warranty, longer than what Philips offers. No drop in brightness after many months now. Don't expect usual low China price.

author: Herr R aus B
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 02:01:55 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 09, 2014, 06:18:17 amInteresting wording... "our western world" = "USA"? :-) or "our" as in "is owned by" as in "the western world is owned by the USA"? well - maybe, Obama, NSA & Co and quite a bunch of U.S. americans might think that way. But it should also not be forgotten, that the USA - at least their economics - de facto are owned by chinese banks meanwhile.. almost the entire "economical prosperity" of the land of the free relies on a significantly vast majority of chinese loans...one better starts taking the chinese, korean and other people rather seriously... which by the way is at all not only a question of economical coherence but of human dignity :-)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 02:55:57 pm
content: My theory is that for many years,there was only one customer in China--the Communist Government.Making things poorly became a way to "have a dig" at the State.A dangerous way,if you got caught!This has carried over into the modern market culture,but is not representative of traditional Chinese values.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 06:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: staxquad on January 10, 2014, 01:58:57 amThat's not true... at least, it's not accurate in terms of Chinese made stuff.Chinese business culture is all about the lowest price, virtually at the expense of all else - quality, longevity, toxicity, etc. It is not simply a result of the Chinese being given low specs, it is something deeply ingrained in their business culture. Must like respect and pride are deeply ingrained in Japanese culture. Expecting a Chinese company to produce fantastic quality is like expecting a Japanese businessman to behave like a drunken California college kid in Las Vegas. It's just not in their culture. It's not that a Japanese man is incapable of drinking or being boorish, it's just far removed from everything they know and have ever known.The Chinese can produce quality if it is mandated upon them and very strictly enforced. There are countless stories of Chinese companies who, when left to their own devices, immediately cut quality dramatically, even if the resulting savings were negligible or even if it risked their whole business.It's like saying "milk containers need to be made from titanium and withstand 100psi". You just wouldn't get why anyone would make such an overdesigned (by your judgement) milk container, and if left to your own methods, you'd say "just make it out of plastic, it will be fine".Same thing.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 06:46:42 pm
content: The Fear of ParanoiaLook at the pictures and dates belowhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Hewell well before Britannia ruled the waves and still no attempt rule the worldthen belowhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_battles#Ming_Dynasty_.281368.E2.80.931644.29Dates again but especially around 1510 , at this time the criminal element in society (a equivalent dockers union with links right to the top) and the good citizens of the China people started the "inner wars" as the criminal element in the expeditions and later was giving the name of China a bad name in the trading missions treating other country traders people badly , notice the previous dates and then after 1510 its that simple imo ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacreand the question would be why was there not retribution , and still not , as just by the masses alone japon could have been swamped .Paranoia of guilt is truly alive and will cause some great mistakes soon and deservedly so I reckon , Paranoia is the tool of the paranoid and a western tool as there is only one place that wants to rule the world with intent in which it is easy to notice when one looks through the smokescreen imo .What Paranoia of guilt can do is Iraq , wrong country wrong person but it had to be him or them as we have been trying to murder them or him for ages and he and them knew it is us so it had to be them or him (search for attempts to remove) , so 500000 dead people later and still counting , illegal , and Oooops wrong person and place lets go over there instead >..Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 07:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 10, 2014, 06:10:13 pmwhat's their potential?the Chinese have low margins, but that doesn't stop the Western companies from still charging exorbitant prices for product manufactured in Chinahow much do you think an iPhone costs to manufacture, and what does it retail for? Apple doesn't know what to do with their mountain of money, but I bet they are still complaining that they want it cheaper stillif Western Companies don't like what the Chinese produce, they can produce it themselves at Western wages and uplift their own economy rather than sinking it to the ground like the greedy bastards they are

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 07:12:28 pm
content: Quote from: GEuser on January 10, 2014, 06:46:42 pmthey knew what they were doing, they were murdering for the OIL"Prior to the 2003 invasion and occupation of Iraq, US and other western oil companies were all but completely shut out of Iraq's oil market," oil industry analyst Antonia Juhasz told Al Jazeera. "But thanks to the invasion and occupation, the companies are now back inside Iraq and producing oil there for the first time since being forced out of the country in 1973.""Oil remains fundamentally a government business. While many regions of the world offer great oil opportunities, the Middle East with two thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies, even though companies are anxious for greater access there, progress continues to be slow." (1999) Dick Cheney.Cheney's Energy Task Force of 2001 solved that in the multitude of closed door meetings with Big Oil brass.And now they are in like Flinn, the original 5 Red Line Agreement Oil Companies, Caltex, Exxon, BP, Shell, and Total.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 11:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: Herr R aus B on January 10, 2014, 02:01:55 pmI can assure you that what Obama thinks has nothing to do with how I think. I am insulted by being lumped together in such a manner.