QSO western europe <=> California, USA ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 05:07:35 pm
content: I'm new to amateur radio; only been doing it about 6 mos or so. My setup is very modest: IC-7300, tuner, inverter vee in a tree. I live in Northern CA on the coast.I've had no trouble making contacts (mostly digital modes) all over pacific rim (Australia, NZ, Japan, Korea, and eastern Russia) and the US (though few on the East Coast -- though I think that has more to do with the time of day I'm typically trying, since I am heard by East Coast stations if I leave my transmitter up as a beacon overnight.)Anyway, I would like to make QSOs with Europe, and am wondering if this is likely/possible with the current setup, and if not, how far down the rabbit hole of antennas and power I'd have to go to get there. I'm really not interested in running 1.5kW, and I suspect it wouldn't help as I never hear anybody from Europe, either. I could make big investments in a fancier, higher antenna, but there are limits.Or maybe this just isn't realistic, especially during this low solar cycle? It's funny: reading all the usual ham sources, it's hard to get a real sense of whether this a realistic proposition given my location/gear.-- dave

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 05:47:17 pm
content: How high up are the ends and middle of the antenna? What bands are you using?

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 06:53:23 pm
content: Good station at the other end, good day of propagation and you should have no issues working a few stations on 20 meters.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 07:11:11 pm
content: Back in the day when 27MHz CB was the thing in the UK a friend of mine used to park up on a high spot and work the east coast on 100W into a vertical whip antenna from South Wales. It would have been 1980 or early 80's so solar maxima at the time. Maybe a 20m dipole antenna would help a bit.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 08:56:49 pm
content: Any improvement in the antenna system will return more bang for buck then any other investment. But of course knowledge of propagation of when certain band opening are most favorable is also worth the time to acquire.

author: voltz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:12:06 pm
content: Well, going the other way, i am located in the UK and I can rarely hear CA. Its normally East coast US like New York etc from here.. But i am just using a simple dipole on 40m..I suspect you're going to need a better antenna. Maybe a beam, probably on the 20m band.And yes, i agree with the others that investment in a better antenna gives you a far better return than any linear amp. For a start, its TX and RX you gain from, not just TX. Pulling stations out from the noise and being able to get back to them.Compounded by the fact that solar activity is fading. We are currently well on the way to a dip, a year, maybe 2, then thats it.Then you need to catch the propagation just right.. Thats the skill part and you may have to get up in the middle of the night or something!

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:55:09 pm
content: Whoops, I should have said. I use mostly 20m and sometimes 40m. Antenna is a G5RVjr that I hacked the the coax section from and continue the ladder line through to my tuner, which accepts a balanced line.Before I converted the G5RV into ladder line feedline, it my MFJ949E would tune it to 1:1, but I did wonder how well the signal was getting out. With the ladder line modification, it tunes up 1:1 on 20m (and the signal is definitely stronger) but on 40m, only to 1:1.5 or so. Still pretty good.Top of vee is about 35 feet up. Ends are about 10 feet up. One side is also folded a bit. It's far from optimal, but my lot is small and the tree doesn't go any higher.I'm thinking of a roof mounted vertical. Not sure if that would make a big difference. It would a major step change in cost, though!

author: whalphen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 04:20:05 am
content: With your setup, you should be able to have QSOs with Europe. I live in Michigan, have a fan dipole and a Flex-1500, and have made contacts across Asia, Europe, South America, Southern Africa, Australia, and the South Pole with 5 watts using JT65 digital mode. I've even had contacts in Europe with only 250 milliwatts. My dipole runs east-west, putting the strongest signals toward the north and south. I get good propagation to Europe over Greenland, especially when the day/night terminator is over the Atlantic. 40 and 20 meters work well at night. 20, 17, 15, 12, and 10 work well during the day. My antenna is about 30 - 35 feet above the ground. I am able to make voice contacts, too. This evening I contacted the Czech Republic and Russia on 40 and 20 meters using SSB and 50 watts.Using digital modes, your power level should get you global coverage. Take a close look at your antenna and its orientation. If possible, borrow or buy an antenna analyzer to make sure it works well on 20 and/ or 40 meters. It may be worthwhile to trim your antenna for resonance on 20 or 40 meters.

author: jopie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 05:50:08 am
content: Propagation from Europe to California is scarce. Get yourself familiar with propagation charts. You might have to get up early hours to reach your goal, but with a bit of patience it should be possible, even with a simple dipole.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 05:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: jopie on August 15, 2016, 05:50:08 amThanks, I will indeed start to understand those charts. MUF, LUF, LPF ... here I come!I built a WSPR beacon from a kit (https://www.qrp-labs.com/) last week and have been quite happy with it so far. I can leave it running all night and see in the morning where I was heard. Depending on how I power the PA, the unit does only up to about 500mW, but it has been heard all over the US, Japan, Oceania. I think this will be a nice additional way for me to probe propagation, too. After a night when I see some European contacts, I can make a date with myself to get up early the next day and try my luck.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 08:52:38 pm
content: It's possible if all three things are working in your favor.I've made it from Southern CA to Azores with a dipole wrapped around my second story roof with 100W on 40m.Propagation, your antenna and "their" antennaJust don't expect it to be a daily event

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 07:09:09 am
content: What are the noise levels you see in your location?I am running JT9 and JT65 at around 20-30W (before someone yells at me, please read on) and according to PSK Reporter I've been received even in Australia and New Zealand sometimes. I am in Spain, Northern Coast. My antenna is a MFJ1788 loop, inside a building, by the window (hence the somewhat high power, the antenna has some losses itself and I'm really shielded by the buildings around).The real problem nowadays is reception, as there are plenty of noisy interference sources around. Back in the late 80's, yes, the solar maximum was great, but electronic noise was much lower. And I could receive plenty of transmissions on a humble ICF-5900W.If your problem is noise, a vertical antenna will hardly help. In case your main noise source comes from a certain direction, a loop antenna can help as it can null it out.Modern digital modes don't need a lot of power. Actually, too much power is very detrimental because increased distortion will make your signal harder to decode.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2016, 04:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on August 16, 2016, 07:09:09 amFrom memory, with the antenna set up as it is now, I am seeing somewhere between S3-S5 on 20m and S1-S3 on 40m. I haven't spent enough time on other bands to remember.Usually when I do JT65 I 5 - 20W, mostly on the bottom end of that range. My WSPR beacon is running on 20m since last night. You can see it (WE6EE) on wsprnet.org. It's doing about 350mW if my calculations are right. Only North American stations heard me over the last 12h.As you suggest, it may make more sense to focus on reception. I've never heard a European signal at my QTH.Speaking of reverse beaconing, it seems that WSPR is obviously set up for that purpose, but pskreporter allows the same with JT65. However, is it considered reasonable operating practice to run JT65 as a beacon? How do you let people know not to try a QSO with you (since you're not there). I ask in part because the beacon radio I have supports JT65, but it never occurred to me before that I might let it free run in that mode without me.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 02:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on August 16, 2016, 04:37:16 pmHow are you receiving? Make sure you have the right gain staging in place. AGC OFF is best, using the RF gain to make sure tat you sample the largest possible dynamic range.In my experience at least, the hard part with JT may be reception. With my indoors antenna I've hit Australia and New Zealand several times but never heard an answer.QuoteI don't think you should use JT65 nor JT9 in automated mode, but there's nothing wrong in leaving it turned on *just receiving* and contibuting data to pskreporter, for example. I think lots of people do just that, and it can be really useful to the community. Nobody will try to complete a QSO with you as long as you don't answer a CQ.And the data will help you see wether you can receive European stations at some time.Maybe Europe-West Coast can be easier just before dawn for us, say around 4 - 5 UTC, when the gray line might help. Anyway if you happen to answer me, yell LOUD!(ie, don´t, using high powers is a problem).

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 05:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on August 17, 2016, 02:34:39 pmNot sure I understand the question. My radio is an IC-7300. It's a direct conversion machine so having the RF gain too high in the presence of a big in-band signal will reduce the sensitivity to small signals, but I have not noticed any large signals in the JT65 (XX.076+) range. So generally, I have the RF gain at full. No preamp on, though. I believe my AGC is on, so I could try turning it off. Some JT signals are nearby, so that could be a factor.Quote from: borjam on August 17, 2016, 02:34:39 pmYeah, I won't do it. I wonder why they put it in a beacon transmitter that doesn't even /have/ a receiver. I do leave my IC-7300 on receiving with pskreporter from time to time. Not religiously, though.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 08:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on August 12, 2016, 05:07:35 pmHave a look athttp://www.voacap.com/prediction.htmlYou can set the two endpoints/QTHs and specify the setup and antenna you use. The chart shows you the time and band a contact should be possible.The prediction is quite good and matches the reality.My QSOs with california, all in CW, are very very rare. I use a vertical with 100watts.The eastern parts of the US and Canada are easy.PST is -9 hours to us. A matching time frame is more likely on a special event weekend, like the WAE last weekend.Have a look for such events on a Contest Calendar:http://hornucopia.com/contestcal/On a normal day we go to work when you fire up your TRX.HTH!Cheershammy

author: voltz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2016, 11:48:04 pm
content: Quote+1 from the UK. Its very difficult to reach over to CA from here.As i mentioned in a previous post, both ends of the link are probably going to need beams. And catching the propagation time would be critical.I can't even remember the last time i heard CA here.. Years ago.. So if you wanted to make contacts regularly, you will need something much better than a simple dipole or inverted V.. Better than a vertical even.Good luck though. Not trying to say you can't do it, just saying its difficult!

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 04:27:37 am
content: Quote from: hammy on August 17, 2016, 08:35:10 pmThat is a very cool site! Thanks for posting it!

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 06:38:44 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on August 17, 2016, 05:40:15 pmThe author (K1JT) makes some recommendations in order to maximize dynamic range. Bear in mind that you are receiving a large chunk of spectrum (in JT terms) so you could receive both strong and weak signals at the same time.I am actually writing an article about this, explaining the whys of the recomendations, because the program manual is just a "do this" thing. In order to maximize performance you need proper gain staging.AGC makes sense when the signal you are trying to receive more or less fills the spectrum you are selecting for demodulation. With narrow band JT or PSK modes it's better to leaveAGC OFF. Otherwise a strong signal may compromise the decoding of weaker ones.The second recommendation is to set up the signal levels so that you have enough headroom for both strong and weak signals. K1JT recommends a noise level around the 30 dB mark in the "thermometer" diagram on the main control window. For the measurement to work, set up the slider to the right of the thermometer just in the middle point. The best moment to set it up properly is the 5-10 second lapse between transmissions. With the noise level there you will have around 60 dB of headroom for strong signals.That adjustment must be done by lowering the RF gain. Remember that you turned off AGC, so it's not that strange to do so. The advantage, your levels won't be jumping up and down.Once done, check if the headroom is fine. If your IC-7300 complains of overload you need further reduction of RF gain. That's the problem with direct sampling SDR reception, if anything saturates the ADC you're toastIn my IC-7200, the sign that I'm going too far instead is the "second AGC" kicking in, a limiter that avoids overloading the A/D converter which is not direct sampling, but in the last IF conversion. The tell tale sign is a slight reduction in gain when a strong signal kicks in. In that case you should reduce RF gain a bit further. You definitely don't want to overload an ADC. Actually in the IC-7200 you can't, that limiter circuit will prevent it.Try these recommendations and see if you can improve reception a bit.Note that the 30 dB noise level recommendation is just an approximate value. If you have high noise levels in your location (my noise level is around S6-S7 on 20m, S8-S9 on 40 m, the joys of an indoor antenna, you won't need such a high dyamic headroom and you can raise the noise level in order to exploit the ADC converter resolution a bit better.But keep headroom in mind

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 06:24:04 am
content: Speaking of the devil, according to PSKReporter, W4UAT from Livermore received last night (22:56 UTC) EA2BHE, my friend and neighbor (he lives 100 m from my home) on 20 m, using JT65.I don't know if he completed a QSO but I can ask. It's a bit unlikely as our location is a urban setting and there's a lot of noise.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 06:43:04 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on August 19, 2016, 06:24:04 amJealous! OK. I'm going to redouble my efforts. I have been away for the past few days, but will spend some time with my RF gain settings.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 09:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on August 19, 2016, 06:43:04 pmMy friend's antenna, to add insult to injury, is not exactly a beamhttp://www.ciromazzoni.com/#!loop-baby/c1fl3

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 10:29:28 pm
content: I got home from a business trip this afternoon and immediately on turning my receiver on I heard someone from Italy (IK4ISR) on 20m JT65. So that is my first European reception. A bunch of people tried to contact him, but no response.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 11:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on August 19, 2016, 09:40:59 pmCirro Mazinni magnetic loop antennas look very cool - kind of pricey but if they operate has good as they look they should be very strong performers

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 10:52:25 pm
content: Ah, disabling the AGC definitely made a difference. I heard Greece, Spain, Italy, and Czech Republic today. I tried to contact them, but nobody heard me, though. Still, progress!

author: Theboel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 06:23:50 am
content: maybe You already done but may I ask,G5RV antenna not really an omni directional antenna, maybe this paper can help :http://www.w5ddl.org/files/Zs6bkw_vs_G5rv_20100221b.pdf

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 02:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on August 20, 2016, 10:52:25 pmThis WebSDR is located in Netherlands:http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/You can check you signal, if there is any reception at all.Search for a free frequency, let it run in a browser window and then transmit. You signal should show up ...Cheershammy

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 06:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: Theboel on August 21, 2016, 06:23:50 amIt's not really a G5RV jr anymore. It's a somewhat oddly cut dipole fed with ladder line, but it is certainly true that I do not know how it is radiating. My installation is not perfect either. The two ends are coming down at different angles, and is bent over a tree branch and turns slightly. So, really, quiet a mess. It does hear pretty well, though!

author: Theboel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2016, 01:36:19 am
content: It's not really a G5RV jr anymore. It's a somewhat oddly cut dipole fed with ladder line, but it is certainly true that I do not know how it is radiating. My installation is not perfect either. The two ends are coming down at different angles, and is bent over a tree branch and turns slightly. So, really, quiet a mess. It does hear pretty well, though!try use antenna simulator like MMana, its can help a bit to predict your antenna behavior and help to find a suitable antenna for Your situation.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2016, 09:12:57 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on August 20, 2016, 10:52:25 pmThe instructions for WSJT-X are somewhat authoritarian, but the author is rightDisable AGC and use the receiver's RF gain control to achieve a good dynamic range. Depending on your location and the amount of noise you receive, you should get an excellent dynamic range following his recommendations.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:18:30 pm
content: please note there are a lot of power line adapter are in use who transmitt on some khz up to 30Mhz (legaly) and inter fear CB, Amateur Radio.Here in my City its very hard to run my CB becouse you hear every sec. that annoying "zap zap zap...." from the Powerline Adapter who People around our Hose are use.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 02:32:41 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on October 17, 2016, 04:18:30 pmI know. But digital modes such as JT can get through in amazingly hostile conditions.I run them using an indoor loop antenna, with S9 noise on 40 m, for example, and I can complete full QSOs with Russia. As faras I know, the other side has been running around 20 W, same as me.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 02:39:07 pm
content: Your Loop Antenna cant block Signals who are transmitt ohne the same Freq with an strong Signal.Thats the problem with Powerline the Transmit for example on CB Frequency. (I dont know where also the Transmit.)

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 03:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on October 19, 2016, 02:39:07 pmOf course it can't. But the low signal digital modes can work even with enormous amounts of noise.