Why does the US provide all  critical electronic  design knowledge to the world? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 08:28:24 pm
content: Why does the US provide all of its critical electronic design knowledge to the world? The question is clear. There are two companies in the world that can make integrated devices such as ADC and DAQ. Analog devices and ti. These companies are the ones that provide all the information from past to present. I'm sure if they removed the information on the internet, most countries would no longer produce technology. It is also clear that there are some key men here. These men are key to producing the technology. Coming to the issue of production in China, the world thinks that it is a Chinese chip manufacturer, but production volume and design are completely different things. The waffer design encryption of the integrated circuits produced in Taiwan is quite complex.It is clear that there is American support behind Europe's Dutch-based ASML company and ST Microelectronics. I'm sure if simple topologies had not emerged, we would never know about them. Is this an illusion?Imagine all the ADCs on the market right now are withdrawn from the market, what happens next?Is China Truly a Technological Power?China manufactures, but doesn't (yet) design at the top levelChina has domestic foundries like SMIC, but 5nm and below nodes are still restricted, because ASML’s EUV lithography machines are banned from being sold to China under pressure from the U.S.China is trying to develop its own ADCs, DACs, and DAQ systems, but their performance, power efficiency, speed, and EMC compliance still do not match U.S. standards.Additionally, China remains dependent on EDA tools for IC design — tools like Cadence, Synopsys, and Mentor are all dominated by U.S.-based companies.https://www.vogon.today/economic-scenarios/chinese-scientists-develop-the-fastest-analog-to-digital-converter-which-will-change-electronic-warfare/2024/08/01/"Please do not go off topic or get into arguments. Just state your opinion on the question. You are free to state whether the question is stupid or makes sense."

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:02:39 pm
content: Crazy question.It is commonly, and falsely, assumed by some that knowledge is somehow "secret", and is stored in locked vaults, and only shared with the privileged few.This, of course, is nonsense.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:16:56 pm
content: Assuming that opamps were hidden for 10 years during World War II, I'm sure technologies we don't know about are being used now.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:23:44 pm
content: Skipped medication today?

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:30:17 pm
content: definitely

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:38:00 pm
content: What a bizarre line of questioning. Has his account been hacked?

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 09:50:24 pm
content: Not yet

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 10:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 20, 2024, 09:38:00 pmBy MEN:Quote from: electronx on August 20, 2024, 08:28:24 pmNot people, MEN, definitely no WOMEN.

author: tridac
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 10:33:21 pm
content: Interesting question. Back in the 60's to 80's, if you bought a Tek scope, all the theory of operation, calibration, service info and schematics, were all provided, and since those guys really understood analogue design, and how to get the best from it, technical prowess of the highest border, it was easy to learn such techniques for other designs, by reading the manuals. Recently took the cover of the lab TDS2024B scope and that has iirc, about 3 large chips on the pcb, and that's about it. No schematics and none of the info that come with the older designs. Same with HP kit, from past to present.Reason ?: Far east, in places, spends much their time reverse engineering and stealing ip of western kit, no R&D cost, so they can copy and sell at a fraction of the price. Don't work in that part of the industry, but would think that it's a real fight for survival for the hp and tek of this world now. Security by obscurity amy not be a long term solution, but it must help...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 10:36:43 pm
content: Uh, no.But that changes from the "all power supplies are now made in China".

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 11:54:59 pm
content: There is no shortage of brains around the world. What the US had for a while was an advantage in investment. Which resulted in a large stock of expertise. Which is nothing which can't be duplicated elsewhere. Sharing of knowledge reduces the investment to achieve that. The US (not any single entity, just a common movement by those directing business investments) that reduced manufacturing costs at overseas locations was a bigger advantage than the body of skills performing that manufacturing and actively shared the knowledge bringing other parts of the world up to speed faster than it might otherwise have occurred.This is almost an exact copy of a process that Great Britain followed roughly 50-100 years earlier.In my mind it is still not 100% clear that that was a bad decision, but many individuals were hurt by it. But an even larger number of individuals worldwide benefited. And the whole world benefits from having a larger quantity of bright, trained individuals. Just a larger scale version of the old adage "Many hands Lighten the load"

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 05:10:09 am
content: plot line to team america, world police II? the team retired into desk jobs at the ITAR offices?put down the bong, go visit a technical library, realize this is not only totally preposterous but also impossiblemaybe you should write a script, it could also work for "american dad".

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 06:29:36 am
content: The points I want to point out. If you collect DAQ ADCs, most likely the company I work for will no longer be able to produce measurement instrumentation.If Ti DACs start selling for 300 dollars instead of 30 dollars, there is no second alternative. This also goes for Holt ic and ddc.Maybe the slogan "the world always produces antimatter" could work. If you don't give it to the world, someone can produce it themselves. But the problem is that they have been trying this for many years. And this job is not child's playI certainly do not give America the father role, but their success in designing a stable system is undeniable. Nowadays, some countries are trying to produce CPUs or MCUs, but the obstacle they face is stability.When the chip crisis broke out, I worked on a simple electric scooter project and the company turned to nuvoton mcu.The problem was stability. When the temperature changed, the things that were supposed to work did not work. The code, which worked once, started to become nonsense in the 2000th cycle. At the same time, it looked like the code written by a high school student, mixed with code libraries and spaghetti.I have also worked with Chinese copies of integrated circuits such as the simple max485. They are definitely not stable.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 06:36:40 am
content: This just seems like word salad.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 06:42:31 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 21, 2024, 06:36:40 am"No Script, No Fear, All Opinion"What I want is opinions, there is no problem in making word salad.Even if my thoughts are wrong

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 06:43:00 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 21, 2024, 06:36:40 amYeah, and as to CPU "stability", I think this is a bad time for claiming that only the US knows how to do it, with all the Intel debacle. But that's just a pile of words as you said.

author: illusive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:07:25 am
content: Knowledge is only useful when shared. What world will you have been living in if ancient Egypt and Greece decided not to share there knowledge of math, philosophy and so on and to all be buried and destroyed on purpose when they fell? I guess the human population on this planet is still too young to start act as one species for the common good.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:17:41 am
content: It´s maybe the best form of optimism we can have today. That sharing knowledge and technologies helps the world getting a better place and may help to solve global problems.My personal attitude: The countries who invent and share these things intrinsically are in a privileged position to lead new inventions and they even profit from the competition that arises internationally. Probably one of the key reasons that the US were and still are leading in so many areas is that they share knowledge and business models to others. Other nations did everything in secrecy and blew up their nuclear power plant because the positive void coefficient was known to the scientists but not to the operators

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:33:22 am
content: Quote from: tridac on August 20, 2024, 10:33:21 pmI believe this is unfounded and comes from conspiracy territory.Decades ago equipment had discrete components as was repairable and serviceable by the technicians who used it.With time equipment became much more complex, with custom chips, and it just did not make sense to include documentation. Even the manufacturer would repair by replacing boards and not by repairing them. The trend has been universal. The first computers came with board diagrams and books detailing the ROMs etc. Today it just makes no sense and would be a waste of expense.Nobody needs or finds use in, say, a diagram of a multilevel computer motherboard or anything of similar complexity.The notion that in the Far East they are back engineering everything western companies do is silly. No doubt some low level outfits may be copying things just like westerners do but I think the notion that western companies should or even can keep their technology secret is just silly.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:36:11 am
content: I think, rather than sharing information, concerns about consumer electronics have made it necessary to share information. Following NASA space technology, we may see opamp promotional brochures appear for consumer electronics in a few years. Maybe because of commercial concerns.While printing unlimited money, you must exchange your money with other countries to prevent inflation, otherwise your money will become a piece of paper. However, assuming that Russian kamikaze drones use the same MCU as those used in Bosch refrigerators, it becomes clear how "fantastic" it is to give the technology directly in exchange for money, It also reveals how practical Russian engineers are.Maybe they want to keep existing technology at a reasonable price range and don't want to wake up the little fishes and realize they're swimming in their little pond.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:39:29 am
content: I have this weird feeling that it's deja vu all over again.

author: illusive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:45:51 am
content: Quote from: electronx on August 21, 2024, 08:36:11 amI think that in the big picture over time a regional conflict or a big war sets back humanity far less then if a technology, science discovery or medical advancement is not shared across nations and kept a secret by default. This kind of thinking is so short-sighed that it gets dangerous if critical mass of people start seeing things this way.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:54:25 am
content: Ok, we get it, your German scientists are better than ours.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:05:03 am
content: I'm probably missing the point, here, but surely companies that invest in a large R&D department do so in order to gain a commercial advantage by creating knowledge (or IP) that their competitors do not have. These companies presumably would prefer not to share that knowledge, because it gives their cheapskate competitors who don't invest in R&D a free leg-up.Or is it that the product of R&D is patents, rather than knowledge? In that case the knowledge escapes, but the originator gets money from licensing the use of it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:16:15 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 09:05:03 amA patent makes public the invention it protects and has a period of time after which it expires. By its very nature a patent makes public what it protects.Or the inventor can choose to keep his invention secret and thus would not be protected by patent rights.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:25:16 am
content: Believe me, for most countries and for most people, patent is just a "word". Maybe these rules can be applied in Europe and America, but they cannot apply this to other countries. Who will be the judge?I do not believe that patents are absolutely protective.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 10:27:40 am
content: Have you ever considered that the real secrets of technology are NOT in the published information. You can publish a schematic. You can publish the code it uses; line for line. But that information is useless without the chips that are needed. And if you follow world news, you will see that countries like Russia and China are buying the chips for their most important military equipment from the West; from the US and our allies.Why would they do that if they could produce those chips themselves. Fact is, they can't! Russia has lost a lot of tanks in Ukraine. Their factories can't build new ones without the chips that come from the West. They can't upgrade the old ones they have in storage without the chips that come from the West.Yes, Russia and China can make chips. But they are decades behind in the technology. They can make 1990's chips, not 2024's. Their equipment is running with their equivalents of Comodore 64s and Apple IIs.So what we give away is not enough if you want the latest and greatest. It is enough for the technology of 20 or more years ago, not today's.And it is not the chip fabrication facilities that are where the real secrets lie. There are hundreds of these facilities around the world.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plantsIt is the companies that make the equipment that these fabrication facilities use that are the real controllers of the latest knowledge.https://www.marketsandmarkets.com/ResearchInsight/semiconductor-manufacturing-equipment-market.aspThat's a MUCH shorter list with less than a handful at the cutting edge. And even within those few companies, I would bet that there are only a handful of people who actually understand things well enough to actually be capable of spreading it. Just copying a computer database would not necessarily be enough to copy the technology.Other fields of technology will have similar situations. The world may have thousands of foundries that produce steel, but how many facilities can produce a space age metal with an "impossible" list of specifications? Aircraft? Petrochemicals? The list goes on and on. Every area of technology will have it's latest and greatest technology.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 10:40:43 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2024, 10:27:40 amEven if this doesn't fully answer my question, yes that's exactly what I mean, I agree with you 100% +999999

author: bborisov567
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 11:26:46 am
content: Quote from: illusive on August 21, 2024, 08:45:51 amI would say exactly the contrary is right. War creates the need for extraordinary technology that eventually get developed, becomes cheaper and end up used by consumers - the GPS system is quite a clear example of that. Also that need allocates bigger budged for R&D which in return leads to scientific advancements. WWII and the Manhattan project is just another example.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 12:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 21, 2024, 09:16:15 amWell, yes, I do understand that. My point was in response to the argument that knowledge is only useful when shared. Also, the notion that western countries can keep their knowledge secret is silly. That led to obvious question: what is the point in investing millions in an R&D department if you cannot gain competitive advantage from it due to everything they produce being shared across the industry?That's why I asked about patents: at least it might be possible to get some license revenue from them.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 12:22:14 pm
content: Quote from: electronx on August 21, 2024, 09:25:16 amI absolutely agree. As far as I can tell, countries outside of the West have zero respect for the West's intellectual property.Of courseChina rips off Western IP!They also have no respect for the West's regulations and safety standards. Watch Big Clive to see how blatantly and happily the Chinese will stamp the CE mark and any other standards marks on anything, with literally zero regard for safety or actual compliance.You can not assign human qualities to a country, but it's as if China has no conscience.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 12:43:22 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 12:22:14 pmThey think differently as the west.I was in the same position as you are now but changed my opinion.You should not judge another culture based on your own culture without learning about the other culture.In a communist country there is no personal property or "mine" "not yours!" it is always "ours".But what happens now has also happened in the past.The US "stole" rocket technology from Germany after the war, the Japanese copied and improved camera's / electronics / cars from the west in the 60s / 70s /80s , and again the US bought the most talented people with money from all over the world to come to the US instead of investing in their own scholing systemAll is relative and should not be taken to seriously, we are in a closed environment called the earth and everything is known to others in a matter of time.Every succesfull company these days have multiple continent investors, factories and personell working for them. Personally I hope we all on this planet realize that we are sharing the same soil and start cooperating more and more instead of competing and fighting eachother.

author: Foodie
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 12:47:21 pm
content: Money talks, you know. It can solve a lot of problems here.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 01:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 21, 2024, 12:43:22 pmThe purpose of technology and knowledge is to make life easier, fairer and sometimes to make it just more fun.And patents are intended to reward innovation, but if they block spreading a good technology over the whole globe it´s just fair to dispute them. Nearly all legislations of the world have a clue that patents can be override in cases of war, medical emergencies etc. And if e.g. today a company finds the battery technology that really helps fighting climate change then all people who try to sell this IP as expensive as possible should be charged for crimes against humanity.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 01:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 12:22:14 pmThis is total BS at the same level as "Jews are bad by nature" or "Blacks are inferior by nature". Total BS born from ignorance and prejudice.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 01:27:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 21, 2024, 12:43:22 pmThe powerful make rules that benefit them and they want everybody to follow them. And when it is convenient for them to not follow them they make an exception or just change the rules.The countries with patents demand respect for patents while countries with few patents cheat with what they can get away with.The USA in the 19th century was notorious for not respecting British intellectual property ... until the USA became a country with lots of patents.China today is the country that registers the greatest number of patents and is most interested in the respect of patents' rights.There is a lot of "but China doesn't respect patents" but there is very little evidence of that. Patent litigation is extremely complex and expensive and difficult to understand by lay persons but I would like to see cases where Chinese or international tribunals ruled unfairly.And it s difficult to claim patent infringement when the Chinese company is ahead in the game, like Huawei, etc.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 03:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 21, 2024, 01:14:32 pmDon't accuse me of racism. I'm not talking about Chinese people, I'm talking about China the country. A country with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world; a country with an appalling human rights record.So how do you account for the flat-out dangerous products they slap the CE marking on, products which have mains electricity on exposed metal parts? Answer me this,@soldar: would you design, build and market a power supply which has much less than 1mm track separation between the mains and the low volt side of the circuit?You know damn well you wouldn't dream of it. You would find out what the standards require and make sure your design met or exceeded them.So what would you call someone who knows what the standards require, but ignores them anyway? Go on, I want an actual answer!Then reread my post.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 03:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 21, 2024, 12:43:22 pmYou've no idea of my knowledge of the Chinese culture.My comment arises from the fact that China knowingly exports products which don't meet US or European safety standards, but still marks them with the statutory markings, knowing that they are bogus.What would YOU call that?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 03:36:52 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 21, 2024, 01:27:41 pmWhy does the US breaking patent law 200 years ago justify China breaking patent law today?I do have an important caveat: I don't know how much patent law gets broken by China, so I am not qualified to speak with authority. My bigger concern, and source of contempt, is about dangerous products being marked up as if they are compliant with US and EU safety regulations.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 03:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 21, 2024, 12:43:22 pmWishful thinking, but I'm afraid that with human nature it is never going to happen.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 03:40:05 pm
content: Coincidence, conspiracy or just Google smarts, but this video popped up:https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bj9JNoFa1asNot everything from USA is best.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 03:51:18 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 03:23:14 pmI never knew a country was capable of doing such things.It is the people in a country that do things, so you can only be talking about the Chinese people in this case, and it will only be a portion of the people there that are "frauds". About the human rights thing, that is the governing part of the people instilling fear on others that make this happen.But don't forget that this same fear mechanism, though subtle, is used to keep all of us under control.Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 03:23:14 pmThat someone in the "western world" does not do this is driven by a similar fear called lawsuit. When I market a dangerous product, I risk being sewed to bankruptcy, so I don't. The people running a Chinese company don't have that fear, because the Chinese government does not aid in such a process.Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 03:23:14 pmA fraud.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 05:03:22 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 03:30:29 pmAFAIK Everyone can put a CE mark on its product when they think it satisfies certain rules.It is the company that imports the products that is liable for checking these safety conditions.When you import a certain product in your country you should make sure it is safe before selling it to another company/person. Just stating it has a CE mark so should be fine is not what is considered the duty to investigate that the product meets the safety requirements.So yes it should not happen, no it is the importer that is to blame if it reaches the public.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 05:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 03:23:14 pmIt is not the responsibility of the Chinese government to check if the goods exported meet the standards of the destination country but rather it is the responsibility of the destination country to control that imports meet their standards. Just like it is not the responsibility of the Australian government to check if the goods exported meet the standards of the destination country but rather it is the responsibility of the destination country to control that imports meet their standards.In Europe some goods are stopped at the border if they are not compliant and other times they are confiscated at warehouses. The Chinese government has zero responsibility in this. If the importer bought non-compliant crap then the importer is responsible. And if the importer was defrauded he can sue his supplier in China. The reality is that importers buy junk because consumers will buy junk and then we all turn around and blame the Chinese government because some Chinese seller sold us junk when we knew full well we were buying junk because we paid junk price.Chinese manufacturers will sell you whatever you want. You ask to buy crap they sell you crap. They will also manufacture and sell you Apple phones, computers, routers, appliances and now automobiles of the highest quality. I have worked with Chinese manufacturers for many years and I have found them to be just as capable and as honest as western suppliers.All this is plain bullshit and I am tired of all this anti-Chinese prejudice which comes up in every thread where China is mentioned. People who have no idea of how commerce works, how things are, and just repeat tired prejudiced cliches which make them feel better. "If the other guys are gaining on us it must be because they are being dishonest."Fuck all that. I'm out of here. Again.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 05:27:43 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 21, 2024, 03:51:18 pmI would say it is actually the Chinese state that sets the culture in which Chinese businesses operate. I'm sure you understood that, really.I think there is a strong sense of "other" in China about the West. Also, probably a sense of resentment about how the West has dominated the world for so long. These, plus other factors, probably let Chinese manufacturers feel empowered, even emboldened, to think of Western customers as people they can treat with a degree of disdain or even derision. I think the Chinese state brainwashes its citizens to think this way, not least because the West must not appear too attractive to the Chinese population, as this could undermine the state's iron grip on power.The power we have handed China scares me. Not because of Chinese people, but because the Chinese state shares none of our hard fought for values of democracy, freedom, the rule of law, liberalism..... If China could it would rule the world and impose its values everywhere, just as Britain did with its empire. But Chinese state values are scary: deep, deep oppression and state control everywhere. Read up about the Chinese state's "social credit", and feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.And now the UK has to go cap in hand to China, begging them to build us a nuclear power station.We deserve whatever comes our way. It was greed, and only greed, that outsourced our manufacturing to China. In the end we want endless new toys, and we want them cheap. The 21st century will be the Chinese century, just as the 20th was the American century and the 19th, the British century.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 05:50:09 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 21, 2024, 05:12:15 pmI don't think this is right, is it? You are talking about self-certification, and it was introduced specifically to avoid the importers having to check every product for compliance. Think of how many products come into the country from China - making the importers responsible for checking compliance of every different product with all the relevant standards is ridiculous. Impossible, actually. Self-certification is based on trust, but backed up by a big hammer: in the EU, at least,the directors of the certifying company are personally liablefor misuse of certification marks. This was innovative law when it came in: up until then, companies were sued, not individuals. It marked a sea change in EU law.Now of course this does not apply to Chinese companies. You can forget fining or jailing the directors of a Chinese company, because their government ensures they are untouchable.I agree that the Chinese government is not responsible for the products coming out of a Chinese factory. But the government DOES set the business culture, and it DOES make it almost impossible to seek compensation or retribution for non-compliant products.I've bought various things directly from China, not via a UK importer. Many times I have a good experience, but sometimes I get scammed and receive a two dollar plastic toy, rather than the 20 dollar product I wanted. And I know, beyond doubt, that there is no chance whatsoever of getting recompense. In fact it's usually impossible to pin down who it was you actually paid. Company names come and go, addresses change, correspondence is invariably ignored, and the supplier is effectively untouchable, assuming you could even find them. The suppliers know this.Of course, it's a different story for big western companies like Microsoft and Apple: their relationships with Chinese suppliers is much more equitable and they do have the power to get exactly what they want from the manufacturers. And it proves beyond doubt that some Chinese companies, at least, are capable of producing top class quality products. Maybe better than we in the west can do.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 05:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 21, 2024, 05:12:15 pmAs I have said, there's no chance AT All of importers being equipped to test every product against the dozens of EU regulations applicable. It's absurd. Think about it - specialist test houses are required to check for electrical safety, EMC compliance, WEEE compliance, etc. That's why the EU introduced self-certification and the CE mark.The original crime isn't an importer buying cheap Chinese power supplies, the crime is someone in China putting the CE mark on something they know to be non-compliant.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 06:14:39 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 21, 2024, 05:12:15 pmI think it's perfectly reasonable to be anti- two things that happen too often with products coming from China: deliberately CE marking unsafe products; and counterfeiting products. They do a lot of both.None of this detracts from the exceptionally good work they can do when a big commercial entity in the West engages with a Chinese supplier. It's a different story then.I have a theory: if a Western company has a brand of value, like Microsoft or Apple, then you know that they will absolutely nail down the suppliers and manufacturers whatever country they are in, and those manufacturers know it, too. But a lot of stuff we buy from China is basically no-brand or never-heard-of-it brand, and that is where the risk of getting non-compliant stuff becomes very real.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 06:31:46 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 06:14:39 pmChina marks products with the "China Export" mark. This says nothing about safety, it simply states the product originated in China.The China Export mark is different in appearance from the Conformité Européenne mark, although it is likely no accident they are similar.I think this says something about Chinese culture. They are taking the piss out of gullible westerners by using a mark that is similar enough that people might be confused, but different enough that anyone paying attention will notice.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 07:10:16 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 21, 2024, 06:31:46 pmI'm well aware of that story, but I don't believe it. I think it was a genuine (but careless) attempt at forgery. I don't believe it ever stood for "China Export" - I think that is a story that has been concocted later on, when it became widely known that it was dishonest. By pretending it stood for China Export all along, it gave them "plausible deniability": "We never meant to mislead you". Also, wherever there's the dodgy CE mark there is also "Made in China", so "China Export" is redundant.However, I might be wrong - it's just what I think - and I agree that it continues to serve the purpose you describe.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 07:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 21, 2024, 06:31:46 pmLet's call it what it really is -- dishonest, deceptive, deliberately misleading. Is that the essence of Chinese culture? I hope not, but it undoubtedly describes the Chinese regulatory authorities, and by extension, the government.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:13:13 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 05:27:43 pmI always have to laugh when someone makes a statement about brainwashing the population in other countries and forget about the fact that we undergo the same process.How is it that you think about the Chinese in the way that you do. Surely it is not because you made up your own mind entirely on your own. It is more likely due to things you were taught in school, seen on the tv, or read on the internet.We are all biased by our upbringing and surroundings and that does mean that what we think is not necessarily true.I don't know how it really is in China and yes there may be a lot wrong in the country, but I can get my toys for cheap and I like that better than getting similar toys from western suppliers at much inflated prices.Further more we westerners should not complain that much, because we indeed gave them the opportunity just because we wanted our toys to be cheap. Capitalism at work for you.Also there are Chinese companies that make good products for competitive prices without some western support. Think of Rigol and Siglent.Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 05:27:43 pmYou should be more scared about your own government craving for similar systems of oppression, or even worse, religious influences in politic parties with the aim of going back to the days that we had to fear for the Spanish inquisition. There will certainly be men who would like it to be the case, everywhere.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:38:33 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 05:50:09 pmone.., no now it's two acronyms CE and UKCA, any product imported must adhere to these standards, or rather the various sets of standards that you have to meander your way through self certifying your product. As you can't really sue anyone in china as the easiest way is to put the onus on the importer. Obviously being a self certifying process with the exception of a few product categories....... the inevitable....

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 08:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: fzabkar on August 21, 2024, 07:34:47 pmWhat does it say? How many manufacturers from other countries put a CE mark (with the right shape) on their products without having checked conformity in any way? Too many to count.Do most other countries not do the same thing when they *can* (ie. sell crappy stuff)? Yep. You should have a look at the kind of products we sell to "third-world" countries, for instance.Business has basically no ethics. It's just all about opportunities. Thiking otherwise is full delusion. China is using opportunities to sell in the West, just like we do. If we accept their products, that means we're ok with it. Business may have no ethics, but it still needs customers.

author: fzabkar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:19:38 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 21, 2024, 08:43:14 pmHow many regulatory authorities deliberately create a "mark" which is designed to confuse the consumer? For example, can you imagine a Canada Export mark with a similar design?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 05:27:43 pmIt probably will be and should be. Look in the mirror, i don't know about your universities and school systems but ours are inflated over the years. Was it 6 years nominal for a masters in the 70s it now is 4 years and the level is way lower than it was. People have become lazy, fat and think they deserve 8 weeks of holidays and 32 hours of work max per week and deserve to earn a salary that is rediculous high for what is being done only because the inflation also rose prices to levels unimaginable before.In the mean time in India there are 100000+ tech masters and bachelors graduating every year. In China probably also something in that order. Pick the 1% top smartest from that bunch and you have more brainpower then the entire continent of Europe produces in a decade willing to work 50+ hours without issue because they were taught so and you still wonder why they are winning ?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:39:34 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 21, 2024, 08:43:14 pmIf you are a manufacturer here in Europe you don't actually have to check every product you make because there are constructional standards (eg track spacing, PCB materials, insulation material and thickness) which are deemed to satisfy the electrical safety standards, for example. Same with EMC: follow the manufacturing rules and you don't have to test the EMC performance.I don't know how many other countries put a CE mark on the product knowing it's a lie (like China does, although it is technically misleading rather than an actual lie). We aren't talking about ineptitude or laziness here, we are talking about a deliberate and blatant intent to mislead. It's a pretty shit practice, if you ask me.I feel I cannot support a country that treats its customers like that, nor one that jails citizens who express disagreement with the government, nor one that imprisons ethnic minorities like the Uigurs. It's a pathetic gesture, I know, but whenever there is a choice I buy from somewhere other than China. That means switching to Samsung for my phone and laptop (sadly their laptops don't tick the boxes for me, so I made a reluctant purchase of a Surface laptop). Sadly, for many, many products it's Made in China or nothing.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2024, 09:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 21, 2024, 09:33:25 pmWell said: I agree with every word. Our time is past.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 02:47:20 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 09:39:34 pmIt's not healthy to engage in deeply political threads but..What? You don't have tocheckthat something is safe to prove that it is safe? Follow some rules and you're exempt from testing EMC? Hmm, what's the saying again? "If you didn't document it, then you didn't do it" or "If you didn't test it, then it doesn't work"?So you're saying is that it's OK for European companies to blindly put their un-verified products on the market because..."trust me bro, it's fine bro"?Yes, some components/materials have safety certifications (nothing to do with being in Europe), but does that make your product safe? If I go to the hardware store and buy some lumber, siding, and roofing material, am I guaranteed to make a structurally sound, waterproof house?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:18:41 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 21, 2024, 06:31:46 pmThe china export mark is a myth, it's just that some people are not good at copying it or care. Look you can't touch anyone in the country. China does not recognize any court outside of china so you would have to sue in china where unsurprisingly you will probably not win. Therefore why bother with the china export mark? if they want to say that it is china export then legally they still have to put the actual CE mark so the china export mark still does not help, the products either comply or they do not and if it comes out of china then you won't trust it as a consumer you expect the importer to do their homework.CE is basically useless anyway. It's self certifying and until someone is hauled into court nothing will be done about the dodgy product.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:42:58 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 22, 2024, 06:18:41 amSo anyone want to speculate what would happen if a chinese product is unrightfully marked with UL or TuV compliance when it has not been tested by such standards/companies ?Also some part of the chinese "it belongs to everyone" culture does make sense.I personally hate the ultra expensive ISO and NEN standards that only can be bought by large companies while hobbieists as myself also would like to know them and follow them where possible.Anyone tried to get a copy of the HDMI standard ? Unobtanium for normal persons. At least patents are open although kind of legally encrypted with their patent slang. I could not even recognize my own invention when I got the paperwork back from the PA.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 07:18:41 am
content: As a reminder, the importer is responsible for the conformity of goods they import and resell. Not the exporter.So it's whoever imports the good who should check conformity. Either via enough proof (documentation) from the exporter if they can obtain it, or having the product tested in a lab before selling it.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 09:21:44 am
content: Quote from: TimNJ on August 22, 2024, 02:47:20 amAlmost. The importer is responsible for the safety of the product, but most of the time it is OK to do that by inspecting the test certificates. The manufacturer can self-certify and then produce a Certificate of Conformance, plus the test certificates and other mandated documents.I've just found out that for certain "high risk" products, including medical devices, a Notified Body gets involved and does conduct tests to determine the product's compliance with the relevant standards. Most products do not require this.The point being that most of the time products don't need to be subjected to the full suite of relevant tests to ensure compliance; most of the time the importer can just inspect the paperwork.To be fair, I don't think many non-compliant products find their way here through the big importers, because they definitely don't want to get mixed up in legal action. I think the system works, by and large. Rather, I think most of the non-compliant stuff comes direct from China via eBay, Aliexpress, and the others. In effect, the purchaser is the importer. If you watch Big Clive's channel, most (not all) of the non-compliant or outright dangerous stuff seems to come in that way.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 01:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: electronx on August 20, 2024, 09:16:56 pmThe "Op Amps" used during WW2 were discrete modules using 12AT7 tubes or their equivalent.In any case, Op Amps as such were not always the best or even the easiest way to perform a particular task.In the Years between WW1 & WW2, large Electronics manufacturers tried to "Patent everything", but were singularly unsuccessful.Various new forms of circuitry as they were developed, found their way into the "Public Domain", often via the multitude of "Radio Magazines" which popped up like mushrooms throughout the world.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 01:54:56 pm
content: I have another angle on so-called "Chinese crap".Before the PRC underwent a "startling metamorphosis" into a quasi capitalist society, everything factories made was for the government.People often chafed under the strict regime & the idea of producing rubbishy products became a way of "sticking it to the man".Getting away with it was gratifying, so it became embedded into the work culture.With the onset of "privatisation" we have become "The Man".

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 02:28:04 pm
content: Quote from: fzabkar on August 21, 2024, 09:19:38 pmZero. To this day there is no credible evidence of the actual existence of a “China Export” mark. Just of poorly copied CE logos. (Bearing in mind that nonconforming CE logos have also been found on genuine devices from western manufacturers.) The big problem is that some Chinese manufacturers slap the CE logo (with either correct or nonconforming logo geometry) onto products which plainly do not meet CE requirements.Quote from: Kjelt on August 22, 2024, 06:42:58 amWith UL, TÜV, and Intertek, and presumably others like them, let anyone search the certificate for a product. At minimum, this makes it a lot easier for customs officials to figure out whether a product’s UL/TÜV/Intertek certificate matches the object in front of them, and if it does, to know who needs to be contacted to verify authenticity of the products.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 02:42:15 pm
content: The Chinese people went through famines directly caused by the government and due to hi they have the attitude of doing everything they can to earn money and make as much profit as possible and if this means cutting corners they do so.The Chinese government also imposed production quotas which had to be met so again corners are cut in order to do so, The Russians used to be as bad, there used to be stories of tractor and vehicle factories where in order to keep the quotas up finished products rolled of the production line only to be taken round to the back of the factory where they were dismantled, very similar thing is happening in china today with graveyards of EV's produced because the Chinese government has provided funds to make them but they cannot be sold.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 02:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 22, 2024, 01:16:34 pmThe first WW II "op amp" used 6SL7 octal dual triodes in a military application. The later Philbrick commercial op amps derived from that design used 12AX7 miniature dual triodes. EDN once had a younger person refer to those tubes as "high micron" triodes.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 03:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on August 22, 2024, 02:42:15 pmSimilar things occurred in non-communist societies.My brother bought a Holden "One Tonner" ute. (actually, a small flatbed truck).All was well until the clutch died, & Bro took it in for repair.The mechanic was a friendly chap & was quite happy for my brother to join him in doing the job.After the usual stuff, they got the gearbox out & proceeded to unscrew the pressure plate from the fly wheel.The new "guts" was sitting on the bench, & a comparison revealed that the existing pressure plate/driven plate assembly was smaller, being in fact the one from the sedan.Digging around, the mechanic found the remains of a cardboard tag attached to one of the clutch cover bolts.It appears that GMH used the "just in time" parts system, & unfortunately, the "One Tonner" clutches had failed to arrive "just on time".No worries, just fit a sedan clutch, tag it & when the QA guy saw the tag, it would be taken to one side & the correct clutch fitted------ a polished procedure.Again unfortunately, this time the tag was inadvertently torn off, except for a tiny piece.Around the same time, I got into the habit of reading a British auto magazine which had a "blunder of the week section" which called out various hilarious stuff ups by UK carmakers.One I particularly remember was the one where the upmarket version of a Hillman Imp didn't get the holes drilled for the special badge, so was tagged in the same way as the Holden vehicle above.The QA guy duly pulled it off to one side where one of his minions drilled the holes & snapped the badge into place, then off it went to the dealer, who had an eager customer "champing at the bit".That worthy finished the paperwork & drove off in his new "Pride & joy", noticing as he went that the dealer had only put a small amount of fuel in the tank, so rolled into the first petrol station he saw & proceeded to "fill 'er up".To his consternation, there was petrol everywhere as soon as the fuel level reached the two neatly drilled holes in the tank.The bloke who drilled the badge holes had used too long a drill bit.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:24:44 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 22, 2024, 07:18:41 amPrecisely, the only time CE is really a barrier is when the product is exported, at any other point, no one cares, they just trust this self declared useless logo.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 11:52:44 am
content: About the CE marking in particular, some are saying the CE can mean either:- 1. C E (Conformité Européenne) when written with some space between C and E, or- 2. CE (China Export)The CE committee from EU has a post on their blog, saying they do not know any "China Export" label, but the fact that the graphic is different might as well mean that the given product with "CE" instead of "C E" is not really certified for the EU market.Right now I can't find again that wordrpress post from the CE org blog seen a week ago, so I'll let other links instead:Full article:https://ada.pt/en/cemarking2/Full article:https://www.westwoodsourcing.com/en_GB/blog/services-14/ce-marking-china-export-differences-83

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 12:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 24, 2024, 11:52:44 amPeople repeat that urban legend, but that doesn’t make it any more true. If anyone is going to be aware of the existence of a China Export mark (by which I mean the existence of some standard or certification that defines it), it would be the CE committee, but their position on the matter is clear: it doesn’t exist.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 12:33:55 pm
content: 'CE' never stood for China Export - it was either an inept copy of the genuine 'C E' logo, or it could have been cleverly designed to fool consumers without technically being in breach of the rules around the real 'C E' mark.The fact that we still see it on products - including non-compliant ones* - shows the level of disdain and contempt the Chinese have for the West.*Look up Big Clive's channel on YouTube.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 12:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 24, 2024, 12:33:55 pmAs I stated above, we have also found CE logos with incorrect geometry on compliant products from bigger manufacturers, so “inept” is a very likely source, and it may have been ineptitude at a western manufacturer, and then the Chinese counterfeiters copied the inept logo!Quote from: SteveThackery on August 24, 2024, 12:33:55 pmI think everyone on the forums is already well acquainted with bigclive.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 03:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 24, 2024, 11:52:44 amThat's what I said, and if it is not C E marked it cannot be imported. So the china export thing is bollocks as either it is a C E mark that has been done incorrectly because the manufacturers could not care less because their products are non compliant anyway or if they try to say they meant it as china export then they are literally saying that their product is illegal to import because it is not C E compliant. So the china export mark has no reason to exist, it's just a silly rumor someone started after maybe just one person in the great photocopier of the world got wrong and all the others copied.I used to know a Spal salesman. He told me that the chinese copied their fans so blindly that they molded in the shape of the impellor the missing bits taken out to balance that one impellor.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 05:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: electronx on September 01, 2024, 05:16:35 pmI thought that claim turned out to be BS.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 07:06:37 pm
content: Xilinx XC4028XLA, tech from 1999.Edit: The little weasel has deleted some of his posts, among one with a picture that showed a PCB with a Xilinx XC4028XLA on it.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 10:14:28 pm
content: Quote from: electronx on August 21, 2024, 08:36:11 amD. Quixote's brain dried after reading so many novels about knights errant. But your's evidently dried after watching TV so much. Just make yourself a favor and throw the TV out the window.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 10:50:54 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery link=topic=437591.msg5613219#msg5613219 date=1724242934+Chinese IP: Paper, compass, powder, and so on and on and on... when did the UK pay the chinese for their intellectual property? By the way, you could also pay to us basques. You copied your ships from us in the 15th century, look athttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport_Ship. These things were as secret as todays F35s (but they worked fine) Also you didn't know how to hunt whales until some basques were hired. Look athttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bay,_Newfoundland_and_LabradorMy point is: IP wasn't a thing until english speaking oligarchs decided they needed a way to remain rich and enforced that idea with weapons. The very same weapons that were previously used to steal IP (and anything else) from others. It looks now that these weapons made by rotten oligarchs are becoming obsolete, thus that IP rules couldn't be enforced in the near future. Not a so bad thing. I wonder what Wilbur Wright would say about IP laws after knowing anyone with enough money could aid Curtiss to manufacture airplanes violating his patent.And please don't speak about China conscience. Each time I have a problem with some Ali seller, I tell him I know I'm just a white man, but please realize I'm the kind of white man that traded with China from the 15th to the 19th centuries and never occurred to us we could pay our purchases with opium. Works wonders each time. Where was british conscience back then?

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 11:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 03:23:14 pmYeah, too much western TV. What you need, my friend, what you need, my son, it's a holliday in Cambodia... or in Gaza right now, or in south africa in the Boer wars when concentration camps where invented, or in Kenya where MauMau were emasculated in interrogation, or in India where you blew rebels firing guns with them tied to the muzzle, etc, etc.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 12:23:36 am
content: Quote from: electronx on September 01, 2024, 05:19:59 pmNo, it isn’t. Forget generalizations.The specific instance you posted a link about has been discredited. Nobody has ever been able to corroborate even a single one of the specific claims in that article. If there were special components added to those boards, someone else would have been able to acquire such a board and find said special components. In the tech journalism world, that article single-handedly ruined Bloomberg’s reputation.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 07:10:03 am
content: Quote from: electronx on September 02, 2024, 07:08:56 amDeep fake onesEdit: The quoted post has been deleted along with some other posts of the member, claiming things about back doors. Luckily tooki quoted that one post.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 11:04:47 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 02, 2024, 12:23:36 amThat specific example was fake. However, I know multiple examples where silicon has been compromised. The ones I know of were not security related. They were commercial things. However, they could just as easily have been security compromises, if that was the tamperer's goal. Few people know about these examples, as nobody who was a victim wants the failure to be known about. It could have reputational consequences. I'm certainly not going to detail them. Overall there must be a lot of engineers out there, who have worked in silicon vendors, who have seen an example or two like I've seen, that show what someone determined could achieve. The key reason TSMC got so big was not technology. It was a commitment to uncompromising integrity from day one. Even there, it looks like people have left TSMC to go to other foundries, and taken things with them. Many foundries have a poor track record for screwing around with their own customer's IP. It can be a very leaky industry if you aren't careful.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 11:50:29 am
content: Quote from: tatel on September 01, 2024, 11:11:52 pmThis is known as "What about-ism". All human beings used to be savages, and gradually, over the millennia and the centuries, humans became more and more civilised. Progress was patchy, and several times progress went backwards.Like all countries - including China - Britain has a dark past. But what mattersright nowis whether Britain has a dark present. The present is the only thing that is important, because none of us can undo the past. And no, Britain does not have a dark present. Britain embodies the principles of freedom, equality, democracy, the rule of law, freedom of expression. Yes, it is flawed and imperfect, but those are its principles.In contrast China right now is imprisoning it's own citizens just for expressing disagreement with the government. Britain doesn't do that. China subjects the Uyghurs to mass imprisonment and the systematic destruction of the Uyghurs' racial and cultural identity.* Britain doesn't do that.I won't go on - this is not a political forum, but my conviction remains as strong as ever: the Chinese state oppresses its own citizens, and oppresses Uyghurs and Tibetans even more. The Chinese state makes no effort to stop the widespread faking of products designed in Japan or the West, nor the theft of intellectual property. The Chinese government is explicitly opposed to the freedoms enjoyed by citizens in the West.Because of those policies I believe that the Chinese state is a force of evil in the world, and one which imposes severe threats to Western values and freedoms.So, my dear@tatel, mock and laugh as much as you like. My skin is plenty thick enough. And when you've finished, read the following. If you think Wikipedia is biased, check out the extensive references (I've provided a link for you). See if you can keep an open mind - you might gain some new insights. And if you have any human compassion inside you, prepare to be horrified.------From Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China?wprov=sfla1In 2014, the Chinese government announced a "people's war on terror". Since then, Uyghurs in Xinjiang have been affected by extensive controls and restrictions which the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the Chinese government has imposed upon their religious, cultural, economic and social lives. In order to forcibly assimilate them, the government has arbitrarily detained more than an estimated one million Uyghurs in internment camps. Human Rights Watch says that the camps have been used to indoctrinate Uyghurs and other Muslims since 2017.Leaked Chinese government operating procedures state that the main feature of the camps is to ensure adherence to CCP ideology, with the inmates being continuously held captive in the camps for a minimum of 12 months depending on their performance on Chinese ideology tests. The New York Times has reported inmates are required to "sing hymns praising the Chinese Communist Party and write 'self-criticism' essays," and that prisoners are also subjected to physical and verbal abuse by prison guards. Chinese officials have sometimes assigned to monitor the families of current inmates, and women have been detained due to actions by their sons or husbands.Other policies have included forced labor, suppression of Uyghur religious practices, political indoctrination, severe ill-treatment, forced sterilization, forced contraception, and forced abortion. According to German researcher Adrian Zenz, hundreds of thousands of children have been forcibly separated from their parents and sent to boarding schools.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 02:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 02, 2024, 11:50:29 amYou can believe what you want. Things will continue this way no matter what we believe.Ancient mayas wounded themselves in the penis to offer a sacrifice to their gods. It seems, blood coming from the penis was much more appreciated by the gods. That way, a drought could be avoided. At the end of the day, it didn't work, and a drought terminated maya civilization, but I'm as fine with that maya belief as with yours -as long as my own penis remains safe.As for your sources, remember, we evil Spaniards maliciously and deliberately broke that battleship in La Habana harbour. This was proven beyond any reasonable doubt in the impartial investigation carried out by the US. It was the "undisputed truth" for about 100 years, until suddenly the US recognized that it was all bullshit. The same things can be said about the cause of a couple wars where, first Cape Town, then the gold and diamonds, were stolen from the boer, the germans raping nuns in Belgium in WWI, the Gulf of Tonkin incident that led the US to Vietnam, Gaddafi, Assad, whatever. Fact is, as soon as native english speakers put the bullseye on some country, a lot of evidence suddenly appears demonstrating these people is a vicious as Richard III, who as we all know, was not only a murderous hunchback, but also farted like a buffalo, fornicated with toads and, when he got the pedophile streak, with tadpoles.Saddam's weapons of mass destruction was the funniest of all. They hanged him after carefully putting all the WMD on tribunal's table, true? It was right then when I understood that "justice" is the same everywhere and that the indispensable country had became the same that 1938 Germany.Do you realize that at least some of us have not brown, but grey matter between the ears? You have perfect right to any beliefs you want, but you can't expect I will accept your beliefs/prejudices/propaganda as the revealed-by-God truth. Please wrap it all in barbed wire, and stick it up your you-know-where, while taking a deep breath so it can reach really really high.As you said, this is not a political forum. Then why are you and the OP and others putting this bullshit here? I think the mods should lock this thread right now.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 03:41:17 pm
content: Quoteuntil you post something online disagreeing with the establishment,and i reckon under under the current regime its only gonna get worse.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 04:16:57 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 21, 2024, 09:05:03 amMany (most?) patents are obtained to make it more expensive for competitors to compete, and not to publish the actual key details which are kept as trade secrets instead. Filling uppatent pools, for example. Quite the opposite to the original purpose of patents, really.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 04:33:54 pm
content: Legally, a patent must give enough information for "one skilled in the art" to duplicate the invention, but clever applications try to avoid that.Before retirement, I found that a main purpose of patents in a competitive field was that the leading companies would negotiate patent-sharing agreements with each other, and each company needed a pool of good patents to get a strong negotiating position.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 04:43:47 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 02, 2024, 04:33:54 pmThe frustrating thing is that in this context a "good patent" is not one that results from extensive research, or brilliant creativity/inventiveness. Its one that is a good road block. Companies often have a slew of brilliant patents, but the ones that make them money are often the ones that were probably put together in an afternoon to land grab a new application area.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 08:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on September 02, 2024, 02:56:42 pmI've posted my references. Instead of boring us with what-aboutery, let's see your references.Quote from: tatel on September 02, 2024, 02:56:42 pmWooh hooh! Some serious ad hominem stuff going on there! Not a good way to persuade anyone to your point of view, old chap.Quote from: tatel on September 02, 2024, 02:56:42 pmSo a thread should be locked when you feel offended? Good heavens, we've brought up a generation of entitled snowflakes.I case you missed it, the very title of this thread has a distinct political slant to it, so it's natural that the discussion will have some political content. I'm mindful of not pushing it too far, but of course it's a judgement call.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 08:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 02, 2024, 03:41:17 pmHey, buddy! Good to hear from you.Of course Western countries like the UK are far from perfect, and I fear the spread of wokeism might indeed lead to the oppression of free speech.But yes, compared to many parts of the world, we in Britain are lucky bastards. We have democracy, for one thing, which is precious and to be defended. Just look how many countries around the world endure elected dictatorships.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 09:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 02, 2024, 08:14:59 pmIn case you didn't noticed it, my points are 1) your allegations can't be taken seriously, and 2) If this is not a political forum, then any thread with a political slant on the title should be locked ASAP.That would spare us quite a few deluded rants.Hegemony is gonna be on the other side of the world anyway, no matter if you, and others like you, like it or not.I have already stated what I think, so no need to waste more time; please feel free to rant all you want. Not my business.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 10:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on September 02, 2024, 09:30:35 pmWe agree on that! The UK is circling the drain and is, in my opinion, unrecoverable. The West, and democracy in particular, are in decline. China will emerge as the world power, although the US won't go down easily. The hard-won Western values of freedom, equality, tolerance, privacy, democracy, will all be lost and the Chinese oppressive dictatorship will spread across the world. It will be the greatest loss to humankind in history.Quote from: tatel on September 02, 2024, 09:30:35 pmThank you, but I don't need your permission to post, and it never was your business.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 02:35:48 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 02, 2024, 10:33:25 pmDon't worry, be happy. China doesn't give a shit for any kind of political regime in the UK. They will be happy just trading, and will happily see the UK going down the drain, while doing nothing, neither to help nor to flush the toilet.After looking at the news coming from the UK, I think that guy Starmer is actually the real threat for all those Western values you mention. Just ask Julian Assange. Or just look at the newspapers.At the Vietnam war we were told, if communists win, all asian countries will become communist one by one. As we all can see now, that wasn't true. About 50,000 US guys died for nothing. Not to mention millions of Vietnamese that had perfect right to organize his country as they saw fit.The current wave of yellow peril isn't true, either.Trankimazin, anyone?QuoteOf course not, we agree on that too.QuoteYou are wrong here. After you post in a forum, the rest of forum members are who decide if it's their business, and have a right to answer in any way they want, or not. You are the champion of -among other things- free speech, aren't you?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 03:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on September 03, 2024, 02:35:48 pmTotally agree - the UK is an irrelevance to China. That doesn't mean we shouldn't worry. In decades to come, the UK will be a third world country, whilst China's influence around the globe will be as powerful and widespread as America's was in the 20th century and the UK's was in the 19th. Being a third world country, and being under China's thumb, are two really bad things. We will be poor, and we will be oppressed. Of course we should worry.Quote from: tatel on September 03, 2024, 02:35:48 pmQuite right. I am happy to stand corrected.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 03:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 02, 2024, 07:10:03 amDefinitely,in your eyes, everything is a conspiracy theory,

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 04:32:49 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 03, 2024, 03:42:05 pmGet with the times man. The UK is a third world country, if you exclude London, and London won't take long to reach the status of the rest of the country. The UK is already poorer than the poorest state in the US, and appears to have been for about 2 decades. The reason so much immigration to the UK is unskilled is that for any professional migrating to the UK it was last choice after all other avenues for emigration had failed.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 05:00:22 pm
content: I guess this is not true, even though I can develop PCBs high speed design and write firmware , they asked me for 10k US dollars for a work visaand I was beginning to believe that everyone passing by in UK was an expert in hardware and software and that I was inadequate.I think it's a place full of talented people.or they are just looking for warehouse personnel.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 05:16:05 pm
content: This thread is more full of shit than a slurry tank on a pig farm. For the love of sanity, please close it, Mods

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 05:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: electronx on September 19, 2024, 05:00:22 pmThird world countries just don't have a big demand for highly skilled people. They do, however have warehouses full of imported stuff that needs distributing. That $10k is something everyone has to pay to legally get into the UK. Its disgusting that a British citizen can't even bring their own spouse in without a large expenditure. The various costs for that add up to something like $10k.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 05:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 19, 2024, 05:16:05 pmWhy? I think this is a perfectly good conversation that is still broadly in line with the topic title and opening post.Yes, there is a political element to it, but that's OK in moderation. Electronics doesn't exist in a vacuum, or in a world where everyone is an electronics geek. Electronics is part of a bigger, infinitely complex world, so discussions around the geopolitical context of our industry is legitimate and fine for grown-ups.If you are as offended as you appear to be, stop clicking on this thread!!!

author: Squarewave
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 06:03:03 pm
content: This is very Quora.....

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 19, 2024, 05:27:16 pmI'm not offended, I'm just dismayed by the appallingly poor SNR. People talking utter bollocks neveroffendsme.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 08:06:38 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 20, 2024, 06:58:22 pmIf it doesn't offend you, then leave the thread open.As for poor SNR, perhaps it's time to upgrade your receiver with a better noise filter?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 04:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 20, 2024, 06:58:22 pmThe thing is, you are defining what constitutes "noise" or "bollocks". You don't have the right to impose those on anyone else. If you think there is too much noise or bollocks for your taste, then stay away.I think there is some useful and interesting stuff coming through. It is the height of selfishness and arrogance to lobby to switch it off just because you are "dismayed".I'll repeat what I said earlier: if you don't like it, don't click on the bloody thread!! Is that a difficult concept for you?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 06:33:47 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 21, 2024, 08:06:38 amIt should be closed because it's a nexus for trolling and flamebaiting, which was inevitable from the start, given the title and tone of the OP. Whether I as an individual am offended or not is irrelevant.Quote from: Andy Chee on September 21, 2024, 08:06:38 amThe problem is with the transmission, not the reception.Quote from: SteveThackery on September 21, 2024, 04:14:59 pmAnd yet you are reserving the right to do exactly what you accuse me of doing. You want me to "stay away" and "don't click on the bloody thread", and call me "selfish and arrogant", and imply I am lacking in intelligence: "Is that a difficult concept for you?".I am not seeking to impose anything on anyone; I made an honest and open request, stating the facts as I see them - the OP is a troll and flamebaiter - and asked the Mods to act.

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 06:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 21, 2024, 04:14:59 pmAnd now he's actively working to get the thread closed; for this kind of behaviour he's sitting on my ignore list.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 09:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 21, 2024, 06:33:47 pmYes you are! You are seeking to impose your will - to get the thread closed - on the rest of us. It's a clear case of "I don't like it so I'm going to spoil it for everyone." If that isn't selfish and arrogant, I don't know what is.There is no logical reason for you to ask for it to be closed, because you can be entirely free of this thread BY NOT CLICKING ON IT.The fact that you seem unwilling to behave reasonably, and just stay away, raises all sorts of questions about your integrity and your real reason for being here.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 09:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 21, 2024, 06:33:47 pmI agree. There is an annoying troll in this thread. Goes by the name of AVGresponding.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 11:27:12 pm
content: Anyone likes the font he is using?I do not read his posts because of that idiotic font.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 04:34:04 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 21, 2024, 06:33:47 pmYou're correct. Your choice of transmission frequency (i.e. font color) has low SNR and is difficult to detect from the background.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 06:54:16 am
content: Alright calm down people.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 08:23:14 am
content: I have to say, I'm with AVGresponding. As said before, if this is not a political forum, any thread with a so clear political slant, right from the start, should be locked ASAP.Apparently OP doesn't know 5G was first developed by Huawei in China, or magnetron in occupied Europe in WW2 time, or the volt in Italy some hundred of years ago... Just to give a couple examples of the delusion.Then we go with these evil chinese. They can be framed for "appalling human rights record", but if you speak about the much more appalling -and certified by history- record of the British/US Empire, that's "whataboutism". Yeah, whatever. Let alone that matter doesn't have anything to do with electronics.Then we go on the fonts used in the posts. Obviously, should AVGresponding be on the other side, using that font wouldn't be a reason to dismiss him. Ludicrous.I don't agree with "libertarians" that ask for other people not to click on their echo chambers. Particularly if that echo chamber is being built in a "non-political" forum. Their deluded rants would be better on Twitter, Reddit, Quora, etc. Their "reasons" can't be taken seriously anyway.So yes, I think, if this is not a political forum, any thread like this one should be locked ASAP. Even in the hypothetical case when the mods agree with any hypothetical policy. Any political matter should remain out of this forum. Any.Or should we all be allowed to put up here our own -deluded or not- political rants? Then shit would hit the fan.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 08:42:12 am
content: The reason we don't generally allow politics is not because of politics but because when it comes to politics most people can't debate in a civil way or refrain from the worse of behavior. That is the only reason why we don't generally allow it. We will often leave discussions that remain civil.So you think that pointing out Chinas current human rights record is bad form as in the past the Europeans have been just as bad. That is a weak point to be making and I can tell you that without calling you names. once upon a time in European countries slavery etc was just the order of the day and perfectly normal. But in time we realized that this was not a moral way to carry on and went to the extent of making laws banning such behaviours. As societies we "grew up". We also stared the problem squarely in the face and said, we currently enslave people, we have decided that this is not good and we won't keep slaves anymore.China on the other hand still has this culture but it is not even about slavery, it is about basic human rights to practice the religeon these people choose and to treat them fairly despite being of a different culture. Buet they don't even amid that. They say that these people are in reform camps.So we have:intolerance of others cultural originintolerance of others religionenslavementand claiming that these people are criminalsdenial of what is happening.I think you will find that even in Europe of old the last two were not happening. You can't just make unnuanced blanket statements to justify your point, but then that is also why debating politics becomes impossible as every single tiny matter of fact becomes a matter of dispute and its a mess.A"s for eco chambers they are a serious problem in todays societies. At least on here there is half a chance people may get a different view that may take them back to a more sensible path than if they were on some closed group on facebook or on X.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 08:42:52 am
content: Quote from: tatel on September 22, 2024, 08:23:14 amI would think that we would be mature enough to police and "self-censor" our own posts, rather than relying on an uber moderator to micro-manage every single thread on this forum

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 08:43:52 am
content: Quote from: electronx on August 20, 2024, 08:28:24 pmYes, this is an illusion. National borders are artificial. All countries are essentially colonies controlled by local regimes, which in turn are influenced by a global mafia elite. These artificial borders exist primarily to maintain control over the population of slaves.Therefore, it would be more accurate to ask: why do the big mafia players plan their global business in such a way that electronics production is spread all around the world, rather than concentrated in one place?I think the answer is very simple: they don't want to put all their eggs in one basket. With such a business structure, it's easy to lose control over the entire world - not just due to inter-mafia conflicts, but also because of random natural disasters.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 08:44:06 am
content: Exceptionalismis delusional, and not good for you.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 09:08:08 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on September 22, 2024, 08:44:06 amYes, exceptionalism and patriotism are often used as powerful tools of manipulation by those with harmful intentions. They create a sense of superiority and blind loyalty in people, convincing them that their country or group is inherently better than others. This belief is a form of mass hypnosis, making individuals more susceptible to following orders without question.Those in power exploit these emotions to push their agendas, including actions that would otherwise be seen as unjustifiable. By framing wars as "defending the nation" or "spreading exceptional values," they mask the true motives - often involving control, resources, or political gain.In reality, this is a dangerous manipulation of human psychology. By tapping into deep-rooted feelings of belonging and pride, these bad actors can turn ordinary people into instruments of violence, all while hiding behind the facade of patriotism and exceptionalism.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 09:10:57 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 08:43:52 amSo you quote someone out of context to give your own ramblings a reason to exist.Local regimes: you mean local governments but regime sounds more sinisterNational borders are artificial: in what context, what do you mean by artificialWhat is this mafia elite? mafia's are fairly well defined as a type of organization, what do you mean by mafia here?So which mafia's own which electronics businesses?Is the electronics production spread around the world? can you provide information on these groups and what they manufacture and where, just so it is clear to all of us what you actually mean.Or did you simply copy and paste all of that from another "eco chamber" ?

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 09:21:10 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 09:10:57 amI think the word "regime" is more close explanation for nature of these structures.Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 09:10:57 amIn the same context in which a fence is used to restrict the movement of a flock of sheep.Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 09:10:57 amThe "mafia elite" means the global financial corporations and powerful entities that control the majority of businesses and resources around the world. These are not traditional criminal organizations, but rather massive conglomerates and financial institutions that exert significant influence over economies, governments, and industries. Through their vast wealth and strategic control over key sectors, they shape global policies and markets, often prioritizing their own profit and power over the well-being of people or nations. This concentration of power in the hands of a few can resemble a form of modern-day "mafia" where the global elite manipulate systems to maintain control and dominance.For the mafia elite, national borders hold no real significance. In their view, the world is a single playing field, where country borders exist merely to maintain the illusion of independence and control over the masses. In reality, these elites operate as a unified international structure, for whom national differences or laws are just obstacles to be bypassed through capital, influence, or manipulation.They are not bound by any one country or its interests, their goals are personal profit and the expansion of power. By using international financial and political institutions, they set the rules of the game, paving the way for their interests through any economic, political, or cultural barriers.This approach allows the elite to maximize their gains from different countries by manipulating politicians, governments, and resources. Investments, trade, and production may be spread across the globe, but real control remains in the hands of a small circle of individuals for whom the world is a single arena, and countries and their people are merely tools and resources for achieving their objectives.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 09:53:13 am
content: Quote from: quince on September 22, 2024, 09:32:08 amAmerican Empire? America by any definition of what it is now or where it came from is no 1000 years old, unless you mean it as simply a continuation of Europe that settled it only relatively recently less than 1000 years ago.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 09:57:47 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 09:21:10 amSo actually not mafia, you just mean capitalism, but to call it mafia instead makes it easier for you to follow on with your other fanciful claims.QuoteMafia's are relatively recent, the definition has not changedQuoteOK, how small exactly is this circle of individuals.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:19:44 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 09:57:47 amWhile capitalism itself is not inherently criminal, the actions of this mafia elite often blur the lines between legal business practices and illegal activities. This elite is willing to engage in any means necessary - whether through corruption, exploitation, or outright criminal behavior - to expand their business interests and maintain control. They manipulate markets, evade regulations, and sometimes resort to violence or coercion to eliminate competition and consolidate power. Moreover, they have been known to organize wars for their own selfish interests, profiting from conflict while disregarding the human cost.By framing their actions in the context of capitalism, it can obscure the morally questionable and often illegal methods they use to achieve their goals. This isn't just about economic competition, it's about an entrenched system that prioritizes profit over ethics, usually at the expense of individuals and societies.Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 09:57:47 amWhile the term 'mafia' may refer to relatively recent organized crime groups, the essence of what constitutes a mafia remains consistent. It fundamentally involves entities that engage in illegal activities for profit, often through violence, intimidation, or exploitation. Those who use slavery and violate human rights to achieve financial gain fit this definition perfectly. Such actions demonstrate a disregard for human dignity and ethics, aligning them with the core characteristics of organized crime.Whether in traditional criminal organizations or in powerful corporate structures, the exploitation of individuals and the violation of their rights are hallmarks of a mafia-like mentality, illustrating that the concept of 'mafia' extends beyond mere historical context to encompass any entity that prioritizes profit over people.Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 09:57:47 amThe exact size of this circle is difficult to determine, as it consists of a network of highly influential individuals and families who control vast amounts of wealth and resources. Some estimates suggest that it's a relatively small group, potentially numbering in the hundreds or even fewer, concentrated in leadership positions within major global corporations, financial institutions, and political organizations.These individuals prefer to operate in the shadows, avoiding public scrutiny while wielding significant influence. Their impact is amplified by their control over key sectors of the global economy, making their effect far greater than their numbers suggest.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:26:22 am
content: Anyway, to repeat what I think is a pertinent point.....Electronics - as a profession, a hobby, or as a student - is why we are here. Most of the time we don't talk about politics because they aren't relevant to the particular topic being discussed.But we must remember that electronics doesn't exist in a vacuum. Human society embodies almost boundless knowledge, activities, skills, relationships, intentions.... and what we do as electronics geeks does affect people; it makes a difference.When you buy a PCB from China you might well be putting food on a Chinese family's table. You might also be shoring up a repressive regime that jails citizens who express disagreement with government policy. You might need to protect the patent rights and intellectual property of your employer, in which case selecting a trustworthy supplier inevitably involves making political judgements.The OP asked an interesting and pertinent point about why so much IP seems to reside with one country, and I - amongst others - find this an interesting and intriguing question. It might have important lessons for the future; it might be relevant when deciding how to maximise your income from the innovative work you are currently doing.So of course this is not a political forumper se, but to argue that we should ban all mention of politics is arguing for a singularly repressive moderation policy. The fact that we electronics geeks don't live in a vacuum, but as part of human society, means that some of the time politics (and morality, come to that) is relevant to the topic being discussed.Not always, maybe not often, but sometimes, definitely.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:36:47 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 10:19:44 amWow. This is surely the mother of all conspiracy theories! It's an interesting read, though.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:37:05 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 22, 2024, 10:26:22 amWe don't talk about politics usually because it is pointless trying to debate someone like radio listener there. I have literally not the time or energy to unravel all of his redefinitions of everything which are specifically concocted to scare people into listening whilst providing 0 actual information regardless of it's veracity. This is not the place people come to debate like that. You can't talk about electronics like that, but politics you can wrap up in layers of jargon and redefinitions to try and hide the fact that you are simply a conspiracy theorist or that you just have a chip on your shoulder or that you are just a bit off the rails.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:47:52 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 22, 2024, 10:36:47 amYour words reminded me of the comedy movie 'Idiocracy', where people in the future have degraded to the point that they struggle to understand basic concepts and label obvious logic as conspiracy...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:52:19 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 10:47:52 amI did not say that any of what you say does not go on. It took a lot of time to just unravel what you are actually saying before debating it and by the time it is unraveled I have run out of energy, you therefore conclude that I am "sheeple" and that you are right, and that is called an eco chamber, either you will think you have "won the argument" because no one proved you wrong despite you making your argument so complicated that it took too long to figure out what you meant and the fact that you presented 0 actual information to debate.To put it in electronics terms, your message was all protocol overhead with no data payload.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:57:32 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 10:37:05 amThe meme of "conspiracy theory" has been deliberately promoted to justify censorship by totalitarian regimes. By labeling dissenting views or criticism as conspiracy theories, these regimes create an environment where free thought and open discussion are stifled, allowing them to maintain control and suppress opposition under the guise of protecting the public from misinformation. This tactic undermines legitimate discourse and reinforces their authoritarian grip on power.With the same intent, these totalitarian regimes use their controlled trolls to promote a multitude of absurd theories, such as flat Earth and other nonsense. By doing so, they create a obviously false narrative that equates legitimate open discussions with these ridiculous ideas. This strategy allows them to dismiss genuine criticism and alternative viewpoints as mere conspiracy theories, undermining serious discourse and reinforcing the notion that questioning the status quo is irrational or foolish. Ultimately, this tactic serves to maintain their power by diverting attention from real issues and stifling meaningful debate.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:59:49 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 22, 2024, 10:26:22 amYes. And also that human behaviour that is explainable by lack of ability and intelligence should not be attributed toevil.Exceptionalism is at the core of this. It is what allows people to justify to themselves why certain rules should apply to others but not to themselves. You see it equally across all politics, too; it is not more or less prevalent on the "left" than it is on the "right". It is often confused with "might is right" and "mafia" and criminal organizations, but the point is, these people truly believe they are doingrightby everybody. That is what makes it a delusion, too, because it observably isn't.(On the left, the most typical example is"X wasn't genuine Y [because I wasn't in charge]"; on the right,"we wouldn't be here if we weren't exceptional, so these protective measures are morally well justified"ignoring context and history.Nobodyis free of this.)Quote from: SteveThackery on September 22, 2024, 10:26:22 amAnd yet, we do not actuallyknowwhere said Intellectual Property originated, how it was germinated, and what sustains it.For example, the financial advantage the US has for enforcing the US dollar as the worldwidereserve currency(arguably backed by US military forces especially to enforce its use in pricing oil), cannot be overstated. It is the financial equivalent of having a monopoly on a critical commodity. Furthermore, it is not common for anyone to become filthy rich via invention and production. Most of those who do become filthy rich, do so through commerce and banking. So, is gathering of IP a sign of successful innovation or successful commerce and banking, or successful investment?Compare to, for example, how most international companies have their EU headquarters in Ireland, purely for tax reasons. If you didn't account for that, you might equally ask"Why is Ireland superior in technology to all other EU countries?"Essentially, the thread was derailed from the get go, by stating as a fact something that may or may not be true, and then constructing questions and discussions on top of that. I am not sure a discussion can be "saved" –– re-railed to be useful to many reading the thread, rather than stoking their delusions of exceptionalism –– after that kind of thing has happened.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 11:10:56 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 10:52:19 amIf you find yourself angry at someone for expressing views that challenge your beliefs, perhaps instead of placing the blame on your opponent, you should take a moment to reflect on your own beliefs. Engaging with differing perspectives can be uncomfortable, but it might offer valuable insights and opportunities for growth. Isn't it?It's easy to create a worldview that you find appealing, but if you avoid criticism of your model and impose it on others through authoritarian methods, you lose the opportunity to test and refine your ideas in the real world. This lack of scrutiny can lead to distorted and harmful ideologies, such as fascism and other oppressive regimes, which enforce their beliefs and reject any form of dissent.By shutting down critical dialogue, these systems become rigid and unyielding, ultimately failing to adapt to the complexities of reality. Embracing open discussion and constructive criticism is essential for developing robust ideas that can stand the test of time.I believe that emotions in discussions are acceptable, but descending into personal attacks, labeling others (like sticking "conspiracy theory" labels to inconvenient answer), and resorting to insults as a means of manipulation to avoid addressing questions or masking the shortcomings of one's ideas is an inappropriate tactic.This approach undermines the integrity of the conversation and stifles genuine dialogue. Instead of engaging in meaningful debate, it creates an environment of hostility and defensiveness, ultimately preventing any real understanding or progress. True strength lies in confronting ideas with respect and openness, allowing for growth and a deeper exploration of differing perspectives.Do you have any objective objections to my statement that the global spread of electronic technologies all around the world is a strategy through which the world mafia minimizes its risks by avoiding putting all its eggs in one basket?Investing all one’s assets in a single country carries the risk of losing complete control over that country and potentially losing everything in one fell swoop. In contrast, when their business interests are spread across the globe, the risks are significantly minimized. Even if major countries slip out of their control, it does not lead to an overall loss of everything. This diversified approach allows for greater stability and resilience, ensuring that they can maintain their influence and profitability despite regional challenges or changes in political dynamics.In other words, this is basic risk management, which is an important aspect of managing a large business.

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 02:21:51 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 09:57:47 amQuote from: Encyclopedia BritannicaThe rise to the power begun at the beginning of the 19th century, when the British Navy started to purchase significant quantities of lemon(scurvy), bringing pretty big capital influx.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 02:55:31 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 08:42:12 amWithout calling any names: please go to Gaza and try to say again we have "grown up" and we are now the champions of human rights. And that any others should do as we say, not as we (still) do.When I was on my 20s, the city where I live was called "Little Belfast". Even the police used that monicker. Have you heard about that wall all along Shankhill Road? My parent's home would have been just at the other side of that wall. I have seen how both sides murdered and were killed each other for about three decades. I have to say it: radiolistener speaks like somebody that knows how easily politics and politicians can make your life miserable, and why is that. Which side he's on, at the end of the day doesn't matter. Neither does matter how he tries to put his ideas in writing. He knows.The people supporting the "western" talkpoints made here, sounds like Adam before getting the apple instead.It would be very easy to put up quite a few threads that would be as injurious for native english speakers as this one is for more than just me. Remember, Spain is one of the most visited countries and most of our visitors are native english speakers. We know the worst of that people. We could speak about electronic devices from the house of those stupid british immigrants that voted for Brexit. Or from the room of that dumber-than-dirt guiri that got so drunken he thought jumping from the balcony to the pool would be a good idea, getting himself crashed against the concrete instead.But I bet anybody putting up that kind of thread would be banned. So, yeah, this would be just an echo chamber. As said before, it doesn't matter: deluded rants don't change the world, economic and technological power do. These powers are not in western hands anymore. Waging war against the countries that have them now is just suicidal.Lastly, to address OP question: that knowledge spread around the world because it earns more money for owners and customers. No matter if it's about electronics design in the last decades or about ship design 600 years ago. You can make that knowledge top secret if you want. Yet it will spread anyway, and owners would get only a fraction of the money.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 04:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 11:10:56 amThe only objection I have is to the lack of information in all the fucking noise you are making! you are just ranting about stuff without actually saying anything and getting pissed off when someone tries to make a start at understanding what you are saying, you are angry that I am trying to talk about what you care about because you are incable of talking about it. You have prepared statements and that is it.SHOW ME THE DATA. UNTIL THEN I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER TO YOUR NOISE.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 04:09:04 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on September 22, 2024, 02:55:31 pmWho elects the politicians? every society gets the government it deserves. Yes many governments prefer an ignorant and malleable people and great care must be taken that things don't go in that direction as once it starts and is allowed beyond a certain point it becomes unstoppable.In this day and age there is little excuse for ignorance. Unfortunately most people do not understand their own ignorance or lack of intellectual faculties. Over half the population will say that they are above average.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 05:22:24 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 04:09:04 pmWell I'm not sure I'm getting right what you mean. This isn't about ignorance. The guy in charge of radiolistener's country was elected after a campaign promising to have the thing resolved peacefully with the russians. The socialist party that was elected on 1982 Spain had promised 800.000 jobs, self-determination for those regions wanting it, and no NATO membership for Spain. Of course, right after the election, unemployment got through the roof, we got into NATO, and self-determination suddenly was only for ex-colonies like, say, Zambia.Then they pretended to be surprised they needed bodyguards like the outright fascists that preceded them.I could give more examples of politicians lying through their teeth and I'm pretty sure you could also give some more.Watch out, man. Quite a few people look like taking outright lies as truth in this very same thread.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 05:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 11:10:56 amCharlie Munger: "The idea of diversification makes sense to a point - if you don't know what you're doing"In case you do not know who Charlie Munger is, he is easy to google.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 05:25:28 pm
content: Relevant to the thread, nations that copy things assume they have the technology - despite not doing the work. When even that approach fails..."The notorious Hanxin digital signal processing (DSP) microchip scandal in 2006 destroyed the reputation of indigenous CPU chips and the IC sector in China. It is a typical case that revealed some serious problems existing in China’sbureaucracy-standard S&T research system, such as lax standards for assessing the authenticity and originality of research findings and widespread academic cheating and fake findings. This explains, in a way, why the catch-up strategy for quick success would not work in the IC field.""Hanxin 1, the so-called first DSP chip wholly developed in China, turned out to be a totally fake one. It is a Motorola DSP 56800 chip made by Freescale, the semiconductor sector of Motorola, with the original identifications and logo of “Motorola” sanded away and replaced with “汉芯一号” (Hanxin 1 in Chinese"sourceNot relevant to the thread is the Central Party School study of Western Democracy and all of it's flaws and reasons it will fail.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 05:56:25 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 04:09:04 pmConsidering that the people have no way to influence what the government does, blaming them for the government's actions is pure fraud. It is foolish to think that someone who cannot influence the processes of the state bears any responsibility for its actions.The responsibility for the actions of the officials lies with those officials who have the authority and carry out those actions. And it is certainly not the people, because people don't have authority and force to control it.Even if the people had the ability to influence the limited circle of candidates in elections (who are selected by the elite based on who is willing to serve the elite loyally and on whom the elite has compromising material about crime to control them), the people would still be powerless if the elected candidate breaks all their promises and begins committing crimes against their country and the people.If you think you're lucky and that what’s happening here won’t affect you because you believe you’re an exceptional and smart nation and we are just the aborigines who are to blame... I can say some people here thought exactly the same way as you do and many of them are died...I think this picture well explains the process of election

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 06:20:04 pm
content: Boy oh boy, what a load of shit is going round here.It is that I already posted before in this thread, otherwise I would not have bothered.There is certainly proof that education is falling short for some members, or at least history is not their strong suit.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 07:29:22 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 04:09:04 pmUsually a minority of the adult population.Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2024, 04:09:04 pmIt just gets ones of the governments on offer. People generally deserve better, but public life has become so toxic few decent capable and well meaningful people want to touch politics. We chose among a bunch of self serving scumbags, trying to work out the least harmful of the bunch on offer.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:48:04 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 22, 2024, 07:29:22 pmEvery adult has the right, they choose not to, therefore they cannot complain. In the UK a spoilt ballot is counted. Because the results are rounded to whole percentages they normally fall out in the wash, but people do spoil their ballots. The problem is that most people think that not voting is the protest. they have never been told that to protest you still have to go to that booth and spoil the ballot, then you have protested. What will happen when significant percentages spoil their ballots? it will make headlines and spark conversations about the bad system we have in the UK.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 11:11:02 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2024, 06:48:04 amThe true meaning of elections is not in who gets elected, but in the act of people coming to vote. By casting their votes, they consent to being deemed incapable and relinquish control of themselves to the person appointed through the elections. The essence lies in people accepting the election results, rather than simply voting for someone.Who you vote for does not matter. What matters is your voluntary acknowledgment of incapacity and your trust in letting those elected manage your fate.The essence of elections is your voluntary consent to being governed by the official appointed by the elite.Currently, there are no issues organizing voting on every matter so that each citizen of the country can make a decision. Modern technology allows this and it does not require deputies or representatives of the people. Everyone can participate in resolving all state issues themselves directly. But no one does this. Instead, the elite appoints representatives, and you must come and participate in the elections to demonstrate your consent with the appointed candidate.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 12:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 23, 2024, 11:11:02 amAs a somewhat large expert on elections and polls, having had a rather senior position at a major pollster, I can tell you that you're at least partially smoking some fine old crack there.The paranoia around separation of the elite and the people is where the crack smoking is. Your peers are mostly stupid morons. Probably stupider than you and they are eager to prove how stupid they are. They are easy to manipulate and swing votes. On the left you have absolutists, on the right you have absolutists and in the middle you have a floating pool of people who are barely capable of holding an opinion. The elites are mostly stupid morons as well. That doesn't mean you shouldn't accept the result and that doesn't mean by casting you are relinquishing control to someone else. Large populations of stupid people tend to average out to one reasonable outcome.On that last point, you have no control. So get over it. You don't have to accept the votes or not. They just are.Now there is a good point in there, under the crack smoke, which is that we should be voting on individual issues and not parties. That means you don't have to accept either of the absolutist positions which are always nuanced. But you can't expect objectivity from a society that can't even spell it.Improve education is the answer. Vote for that next time.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 01:16:04 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 22, 2024, 07:29:22 pmOne part of the statement is doubtlessly right, being a politician in the partially really toxic public life is no joy. But that´s why I mostly respect these people. I wouldn't like to swap with them, even if they for sure have some privileges in everyday life. Maybe you need to be kind of scumbag in this environment, but I prefer anyone who tries his carrier there compared to people who just complain how bad everything is without taking responsibility for anything.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 01:20:20 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 23, 2024, 12:09:12 pmThe Greeks tried that and found it to be totally unwieldy. The citizens end up having to familiarise themselves with every issue in order to make an educated choice. Also, it leads to voter fatigue so the turn-out drops off steeply.That's why (almost?) all modern democracies are representative democracies, whereby we elect our preferred representative and they do all the grunt work on our behalf.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 01:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 23, 2024, 12:09:12 pmAnd that is what caused the brexit. Allowing the population to vote on a single issue.I think it is a bit to simplistic to assume that having the population vote on every single issue would work any better than what we have now. The time it would take to make a well informed decision on a given issue, would mean that for all the issues that need voting on, you won't be able to do anything else. So votes will be cast with the heart instead of the brain, and that will get us nowhere either.We have to do with what we got, until some very clever group of people comes with the ultimate solution based on a benevolent dictator. One that knows what is really good for us. Don't see it happening in my remaining lifetime though.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 02:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 23, 2024, 11:11:02 amNo, you do not have to vote for someone. You spoil your ballot / vote for no one. So you show clearly you are not happy with the system and do not accept the result.As for each individual voting on all national matters, no, just no. Also the next conspiracy will be vote rigging if you use electronic means. The UK system is 100% paper based with the possibility of observation and monitoring at all stages, so we trust it.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 02:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 21, 2024, 09:42:59 pmI don't spend as much time on the forum as I did a few years ago but before you delude yourself that you speak for "the rest of us" be assured you don't speak for me.This was a more common style of thread 4 or 5 years ago and I took a closer look at the threads back then and found the top 10 posters within would take up over 50% of the threadspace. Sometimes well over. They were hardly representative of a majority of members since the vast majority stayed well clear.I thought then, and still do, that they are best avoided on the forum entirely.One thing stands out as different is Dave isn't so active yet in this thread.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 03:36:59 pm
content: Perhaps the problem is actually rooted more deeply.Konrad Lorenz, a zoologist who lived in Germany during the Nazi time wrote in one of his books that regardless of the political system, it's exactly the same type of people who wants to be a top dog.When I was a kid, my parents convinced me to join the ski club. It was not about a weekend recreation, it was a sport, all round the year activity. The club operated a kind of summer camp at the Black Sea resort, and in summers we were sent to there for intensive training. The club fee was nominal, so there were a training days and a working days, when we were doing an agriculture work at the local collective farm, usually in the field. It was considered a part of endurance training, because the soil there is baked by the sun and it's really hard to dig it with a hand tools. So it required motivation. That was the main problem. It's hard, sometimes it hurts because it's sport and all the enormous efforts with the only purpose to prepare for the competition, when the winner will have a good day while the looser will have a bad day. Essentially, it's all about how to arrange a bad day for someone. There were many boys who were enthusiastic in doing so. But something inside you must resonate with that, otherwise, no inspiration. So my sport career was short. Still have no idea why so many people liking to be in the huge crowd, accepting the risk of dying in stampede, willing to pay the ticket price to watch a competitive game and to play apes together. That only benefits those in the box office.Later, with the military, I took responsibility for the small team, call it a motley crew, because of its multi-ethnic composition. There were three guys from Western Ukraine, one Latvian, one Belorussian, one mixed blood Gipsy from Karelia and me the only Russian. From time to time, I reminded them that it'll be better to obey my orders with no hesitation because I'm not happy to issue an orders and always thinking about how to issue a bare minimum amount. So if they will not comply then I'll be replaced with another commander, who's of different attitude (a lot of examples around) and they will have much more work to do. It's like in prison. No of us wanted to be here. Usually, that worked well except for one individual who was just stupid and preferred to play rebel regardless of the circumstances. Bit that was more of personal feud. There is always at least one such guy in any team. It's interesting the Gipsy guy had served one real prison term prior to the draft (and one more after the discharge, AFAIK), but he was my best friend there. Probably because he was also not happy with the social system and tried to fool it, he just took wrong approach. Anyway the barrack is a perfect place to watch the human social behavior. It was amazing to see how a humble scared boy quickly develops or reveals his dictatorship nature when he's given the right to tell others what to do. Frequently, it was hard to predict.So if the Galactic Gremlins are going to do the great cleanup here, one possible plan would be to help people to construct several huge stadiums in Cyprus. This island has a warm climate and is of enough area to accommodate a crowds comprising all billions of human population. Let them all to voluntarily flock there to watch a free sport show. And then a limited number of nuclear explosions above will finish the species. A minority that survived by missing the show is likely less social and competitive and therefore less harmful.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 03:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 23, 2024, 02:18:46 pmI don't think so. By merely participating in the elections, a person shows their agreement with the outcome, regardless of whom they voted for. In fact, this is exactly why the elite needs elections - to legitimize the power of their appointee.Perhaps that’s why ballots with votes are thrown into a bin, symbolizing that the voter is throwing their own vote into the trash bin.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:03:10 pm
content: You can't change a system by not taking part. You also ignore the facts that you are being told when they don't suit you.In the UK, if you don't vote no one cares, you have proved nothing to anyone other than the fact that you don't care. The percentage of winning votes is not calculated based on those that are eligible to vote but based on the total number of people intelligent enough to understand how this voting things works and to go and have their say.If you spoil your ballot this is counted. So if 1000 people vote 600 for one side and 400 for the other the winner got 60%. If 590 people for one side, 400 for the other and 10 spoil their ballets then the winner got 59% and the other side 40%, this adds up to 99%, the other 1% is spoilt ballots. And indeed if the number reaches 1% is becomes an official statistic and the winner is 1% down on where they may have been.Now if 40% spoil their ballot and the two parties get 31% and 29% who wins?.In the UK there are at least 5 parties, so it can take less votes for a vote for no one to actually win. Then what? You say that spoiling your ballot does nothing, you don't even understand basic maths it seems.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:42:32 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 23, 2024, 01:20:20 pmThat’s totally unscientific. You can’t compare a culture that old with any model today.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:43:45 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 23, 2024, 03:49:36 pmSymbolism through sacrifice solves nothing other than teaching yourself you’re an idiot quicker than the next person.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:46:10 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 23, 2024, 01:26:36 pmNo it was us. And a number of conservative politicians heavily buying out advertising space based on our findings. And that lot at Cambridge Analytica.You humans were merely a passive tool for which to achieve the desired outcome.Lots of people got rich. Not me as I dumped all my stock holding on ethical grounds and fucked off out of there.Large groups of educated people tend to produce sensible outcomes. It’ll be fine. If we fix education.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:56:22 pm
content: Quotemaybe another of the greeks ideas would work better,get rid of elected politicians and replace them with a team selected by random,bit like how jury service in the uk works.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 07:17:40 pm
content: For those who dream of Utopia, here is an AI-based account of the classic "A Ticket to Tranai" by Robert Sheckley (1955).https://wordcloud.app/books/a-ticket-to-tranai-by-robert-sheckley#:~:text=About%20this%20book&text=The%20story%20follows%20the%20protagonist,adds%20depth%20to%20the%20storyline.A badly formatted pirate version:https://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/149381/8/robert-sheckley-citizen-in-space.html

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 09:31:45 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 23, 2024, 02:49:11 pmHonestly, I didn’t presume to speak for anyone other than me, and I don't understand why you believe I was doing so. I was making the argument that the thread topic is a legitimate thing to discuss, and if anyone objects to the topic, not clicking on it is the brain-dead-obvious solution for him/her.What sort of person repeatedly clicks on a thread they find objectionable? Isn't that a bit weird? There are loads of threads I don't click on, because they don't interest me. I definitely do not join those discussions and complain about how uninteresting they are!I remain steadfast in my view: if you don't like a particular thread FOR ANY REASON, then just DON'T CLICK ON IT. If you click on it anyway, and find yourself unhappy, then you know what to do, right? I can't believe this needs explaining.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 03:17:34 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 05:56:25 pmWhich of those types of animals is an endangered species?

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 05:18:33 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 23, 2024, 06:42:32 pmBased on the scientific premise that human brains have not biologically evolved over the last 3000 years, I beg to differ.Yes, culturally as a group we may differ from our ancestors, but our individual instincts for preservation of self are the same as Neanderthals.I believe it was Richard Dawkins who coined the term ‘selfish gene’.It’s important to distinguish the individual from the group (and vice versa). Ostensibly, voting appears to be an individual action. But make no mistake, that individual is most definitely influenced by the group.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 06:18:28 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 23, 2024, 06:46:10 pmAnd based on what I see in the news and other media, human kind is failing at that big time.To me it seems that what is taught, is that if you shout the loudest you will be heard. Does not matter what you shout, as long as you are the loudest.Watch TV commercial and you can feel your IQ points drop by the minute.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 07:20:12 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 24, 2024, 06:18:28 amBecause they are targeting your amygdala and / or the area around the hippocampus / amygdala region to switch off your frontal cortex.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 09:51:05 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 23, 2024, 06:42:32 pmIn the UK Parliament, MPs vote on legislation typically multiple times a week when Parliament is in session. During a typical sitting week, MPs may vote on legislation or other matters two to three times a day when major bills or issues are being debated. Votes are held after debates on legislation at various stages, including second readings, committee stages, report stages, and third readings. Overall, while the number of votes varies, MPs are typically called to vote dozens of times each month when Parliament is in session.Do you seriously think we can dump the MPs (the "representatives") and engage the 47 million individual registered voters to take on that workload? In addition to their day jobs? And it's not just voting - individuals must inform themselves on each subject sufficiently, mostly by listening to and partaking in the debates. It's just not feasible.We do, very rarely for this reason, adopt a direct democracy model known in the UK as a referendum. The last one was for Brexit - a single issue which took up the entire political agenda for months before the vote, which suffered blatant lies by both sides of the debate, and still resulted in most voters being woefully uninformed as they entered the voting booth.Setting up online voting, with all the appropriate security checks, for 47 million people will be a big job, but doable. It will pale into insignificance compared with the task of managing those voters through the process, continuously, in addition to their day jobs.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 05:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 24, 2024, 09:51:05 amIt's not about the technical feasibility. If we had online voting how long before conspiracy theories start about the votes being tampered with ? how long before we have riots because people are still dumb whilst voting on issues if they do at all.Our current system is literally paper based for a reason. In the UK when you cast your vote you do so in a room with several people present. That box is never left unatended or with one person only. From my experience in the smallest polling station there are 4 official people before you count anyone else.Those boxes are sealed and multiple people take them to be counted. The seals examined in the presence of the candidates or their representatives before opening.Then every paper is counted to make sure that they are all there according to the checklist of papers handed out. This is called the verification any many particularly the new kids on the block from the media think that this is it. No this is not it, we have at this stage only counted each piece of paper whilst unfolding it and putting it in a pile with the papers all the same way up to make it easier. This is all done in the presence of multiple observers from any party wishing to be there and they all are.When this has been done for all the boxes the count can start. Again this proceeds under the observation of the candidates and their representatives. If the outcome is close, the candidate that came second may well ask for a recount. And so it all starts again in the presence of everyone until every side agrees that it has been done.Then the result is announced. The whole thing is open and transparent in a way that even the average unintelligent person could agree is free from tampering. You just can't do that with a computer system.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 05:58:22 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 24, 2024, 09:51:05 amThe silly thing about your Brexit referendum is that it still used voluntary voting.Australia has compulsory voting, the concept of which freaks out people from other countries, but my argument with voluntary voting isn't about normal elections, where if you make a mistake, you can fix it at the next one.You cannot do that as easily with a referendum on a radical & fairly permanent change to how a country interacts with its neighbours, which seems a bit too important to leave to those who will bother to turn up to the polling booth, instead of the football or the pub.It is not just for four years, but potentially forever.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 09:13:16 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 26, 2024, 05:58:22 amThat's why I said direct democracy - everybody votes on everything - can never work in reality. Brexit was far too complicated an issue for the average voter to inform themselves adequately on, especially in the torrent of lies and misinformation being thrown about by all sides, as well as making time to go to work and have a life. Brexit should never have been put to a referendum - it was a terrible decision to do so.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 10:52:49 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 24, 2024, 09:51:05 amIt's not rocket science.I literally helped build a company that does that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 12:20:18 pm
content: The consequences of a failure of electronic voting (especially in terms of security) are tremendous compared to most other computer security issues. Let's say a foreign adversary wanted to tamper with UK elections. And let's say their candidate won, is that candidate going to support any investigation into tampering in the vote? Of course not.Most computer security specialists are agreed that there is no safe way to do internet-based voting that would be understandable by the majority of the population. It is possible to come up with all sorts of chain-of-trust methods where e.g. Alice and Bob sum their keys together and hand them over to Clive who counts the result but when your average member of the electorate isn't clued up on what a private key is - and crucially, how important it is that the key remains totally secret - failures will occur. Remember the average voter probably puts a post-it note on their monitor with a password or hint on it.Paper voting is the only secure way - it's impractical to tamper with the ballot in any measurable way given the number of people who would need to look the other way - all the counting can be done in public - and it's impossible to tamper remotely.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 12:39:43 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 26, 2024, 12:20:18 pmSure there is. Vote online, print the ballot on paper, send the ballot by snail mail post to the ballot counting centre. If your paper ballot fails to arrive, your online vote is voided. If duplicate paper ballots arrive, your online vote is voided.But I agree with the general sentiment, that online voting alone is a recipe for conspiracy theories. Paper ballot counting is easily observed by anyone, no IT security training required.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 12:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 26, 2024, 12:39:43 pmOK, but what would be the advantage of something like that? You might as well just have mail-in ballots and just dispense with the online part.Also, what happens when the vote online and vote on paper disagree? You might be able to influence an election by compromising the online part of the vote, forcing election officials to discard votes for some p eople. In some races, that could swing the vote in favour of a preferred candidate, if you targeted areas known to e.g. vote red or blue preferably.There's also the risk of a DDoS attack... on election day it would not take much to take down government infrastructure, which is usually run on a shoestring budget.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 06:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 26, 2024, 12:20:18 pmAs a computer security expert, this is complete bollocks.There plenty of non-repudiation based models around this.As for ballot tampering, in areas with proportional representation, discarding or intentionally miscounting entire wards of ballots is common.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 07:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 26, 2024, 10:52:49 amYou literally set up a company that does online voting, you mean. I already said it was doable. That is not the issue. Educating and engaging the electorate to vote several times a week (or even once every 30 years) is the issue.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 07:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 26, 2024, 06:28:29 pmThat's one hell of a statement. To have any credibility you'd have to say which country you are referring to, and what you mean by "common".I think you misspoke in haste.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 07:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 26, 2024, 06:28:29 pmWell, I am familiar with computer security though I work on the embedded side more. Please cite resources that claim you can provide secure elections over the internet. Numerous experts in the field have concluded that there is no safe way to do country-scale balloting this way.Just one example -https://www.aaas.org/epi-center/internet-online-votingRemember the key characteristics of a voting system. It must be:secure - cannot be tampered with by a third partyverifiable - the chain of trust must be clear, it must be possible to see that a vote has not been tampered withsecret - no ballot can be associated with any voter (to prevent bribery or coercion)understandable - an average-intelligence person must be able to vote without complex processes being involvedSo far, no system has managed to achieve all four objectives.Remember, any voting system will be subject to attack by adversaries with incredible resources, nation-state level.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 08:10:06 pm
content: But if it's written in Rust, it will be safe.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 10:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 26, 2024, 07:52:38 pmSecure -> paper votes are not secure. There are various attack vectors involving stolen and disposed of ballot boxes, miscounting, misreporting.verifiable -> paper votes are not verifiable. There is no chain of trust at all. None.Secret ->https://www.businessinsider.com/occupied-ukraine-forced-vote-gunpoint-russia-elections-putin-reports-2024-3Understandable -> Statistically speaking, throwing some noise from idiots in doesn't necessarily change the outcome. My aunt even voted for the wrong party at the general election because she got confused.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 10:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 26, 2024, 08:10:06 pmfn main() {const LOL: *mut u64 = 1 as *mut u64;unsafe {std::ptr::write(LOL, 0);}}

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 10:31:43 pm
content: Quotewrong.next time you go to vote watch the process from handing over your polling card to receiving your ballot papers

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 10:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 26, 2024, 10:31:43 pmI literally posted an example of that not being the case.You think all elections are fair?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 11:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 26, 2024, 10:47:39 pmI think the vast majority of elections in Western democracies are fair, yes.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 08:25:58 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 26, 2024, 11:18:15 pmYou are completely mistaken then. They are extremely easy to manipulate to an outcome.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 09:02:29 am
content: Why this type of self-abandonment?Western society is not fair and life itself was never fair. But justice and life in general was always better in states that trusted in democracy and followed the principles of the "age of enlightenment". Everyone is free to doubt this, but then please also deny all other progresses of modern society for you: That means: No internet, no antibiotics, no industry, no police, no easy food supply.But as long as you profit from these things you should also pay some respect to the principles of modern society and peaceful cooperation. And that does also mean to *contribute* to the political system instead of just destroying everything. It´s really easy to destroy democracy, but history has shown it really was never a good idea.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 09:41:08 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 26, 2024, 10:04:31 pmSecure - Yes paper votes are secure, because multiple people are present around the ballot box, it is never left alone. There would need to be collaboration that went undetected. Ballot boxes are sealed with unique tags that the returning officer can check. Ballots have serial numbers on them which can be correlated with the book they were issued from. And, because there are thousands of ballot boxes for just one constituency, tampering with just one is unlikely to swing the vote, and it becomes impractical to tamper with more than a few even with significant resources.Verifiable - As above, if you have knowledge of where the votes came from, it's verifiable. The chain of trust is the people in that chain that will attest to the votes being in their custody and the box not being tampered with. It's a basic and primitive technology but it's actually rather hard to 'break' this.Secret - What goes on in authoritarian or captured states is not relevant to this discussion, since there is no way to secure any type of election if the state is corrupt. In the UK it's very difficult to associate any ballot with any one voter, and this is the case in most free countries. Since ballots do have a serial number it is technically possible to do so, but this association requires the intervention of the courts and electoral commission.Understandable - OK, we can't stop people voting for the wrong candidate. But if someone wants to vote for 'team red' or 'team blue' they should be able to do so without having to understand cryptography, secret keys, or other mechanisms. They should just be able to mark a box or press a button on a screen. There is no secure digital method that allows the latter to happen at present.Your turn. Show me how an electronic system can meet these four requirements. The closest I am aware of is ThreeBallot, but it fails to fulfil the last category.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 09:59:44 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 27, 2024, 08:25:58 am"Completely", "extremely"...... these are meaningless words. Let's see someactual dataonreal world election fraud, otherwise it just sounds like a bee in your bonnet.*Also, of course, online voting doesn't have to be perfect, just better than the current paper system.*Just to be clear, I'm not saying there is no election fraud, I'm saying it is trivially, vanishingly small in most Western democracies.Oh, wait a minute - I've just clocked what's going on: you're a Trump supporter!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 01:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 27, 2024, 09:41:08 amThere is a big problem there. What you say should be how it works, and it used to be like that in the UK, at least in my experience. There used to be representatives from at least 2 of the major players watching over the handling and counting of votes at all times. However, it doesn't seem to always work well any more. We seem to have a rising number of incidents of dodgy vote counting coming to light. In the US they basically have only 2 parties, and they still don't seem to have representatives from both sides watching the handling and counting like hawks.As for tampering to swing the vote, that's a lot easier than you suggest. Most votes in democratic countries are won by a modest margin. You only need to swing a few ballot boxes. The different communities that form a constituency let you know pretty much which boxes you need to tamper with to tilt the outcome the way you want. Things are rarely homogeneous.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 02:09:46 pm
content: Of course, everyone with any imagination can conceive of ways of swinging a vote by physical tampering - including theft of the ballot boxes.Having stood for election in local government myself I can tell you it requires a collusion of criminals to carry it off undetected. But that aside,of courseyou can break any system if you try hard enough. The only meaningful question is: how much does it actually happen, really?All the evidence in the UK at least suggests that it is a vanishingly small problem. Furthermore, I challenge anyone to prove beyond reasonable doubt that other forms of voting - including online - meet or exceed all the necessary criteria listed above.From what I can tell, the only people in the democratic West who think it's a serious problem are people who, funnily enough, voted for Trump last time.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 04:06:18 pm
content: Quotejust make it difficult for part of the population to vote.like making photo id a requirement to vote ,sell it as solving a problem (that the electoral commission said wasn't a problem) ,job done .

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 04:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 27, 2024, 04:06:18 pmI think it is patronising to assume that "part of the population" find it difficult to get a photo ID. Do you think they are too dumb, or something?

author: HuronKing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 04:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 27, 2024, 04:21:38 pmIt's not patronizing though, it's a well documented fact that a significant part of the population in the USA lacks photo ID (can't comment on the UK if that's the context though!).If you're homeless, you will have a hard time getting a photo ID.https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-105435More nefarious voter disenfranchisement efforts involve requiring photo ID, and then closing the offices in neighborhoods that would issue these IDs (or reducing the business hours such that no one who actually works can go), putting the nearest issuing office 10 or 20 miles away. In a country without public transit, this effectively stops voting in those areas.https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/challenge-obtaining-voter-identificationhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.htmlhttps://cdce.umd.edu/publicationprofile/1137Has nothing to do with people being dumb - but everything to do with actual, evil people.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 04:47:24 pm
content: Quotego ahead and try without having the means to provide the photograph,you'll be told to use the nearest photobooth, costs around £5,but voting is meant to free from charge.Then you have to get to the relevant office,for me thats an hour walk each way or 2 bus journeys and half a day wasted,but only during office hours so loose half a days earnings.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 05:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 27, 2024, 04:47:24 pmMost people need photo ID for a variety of purposes. So, when it comes to voting most people already have something they can use. I'm required to show photo ID when I vote in the UK. What security do you have in the voting process without that? Signatures? Good luck trying to validate with that approach. Its why so many places ban mail in voting, or heavily restrict it to the small number of people genuinely out of the area on election day.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 05:41:29 pm
content: Quote from: HuronKing on September 27, 2024, 04:36:01 pmI frequently see this kind of claim. I also see lots of people debunking those claims, showing how there are options for people who don't have widely used forms of photo ID, which are not as troublesome to obtain as the ones in the claim. I don't live in the US. I don't know how much trouble ID causes people, and how large a number have such trouble. I do know people making claims like this usually exaggerate, and what they claim needs to be carefully scrutinised.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 06:00:21 pm
content: I would say perhaps 1% or less of elections could be fraudulent in "Enlightened" countries and that ballot system doesn't matter because anyway:a) candidates have all been approved by the oligarchs,b) those approved by the oligarchy have a their disposition all sort of means to deliver any messages they want to the masses, while others are effectively censored, andc) as always they lie trough their teeth.So what's the point in debating about fraudulent elections? I don't think the problem is there.

author: HuronKing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 06:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 27, 2024, 05:41:29 pmI provided you several independent links, some of them even from the non-partison GAO that says this - easily findable with a few seconds of searching. Like, the US Federal Government itself is saying that homeless voters are disenfranchised by the system of obtaining photo ID.I live in the USA - I've had friends go through homelessness and I can tell you, anecdotally, that the government is hostilely designed against obtaining photo ID.... even as they require it for accessing so many services. Its a systemic problem.Not to mention that just handwaving and saying "well, MOST people can get photo ID..." can still leave upwards of 5 to 10% of eligible voting populations without the means to participate in the electoral process. This data has been available, studied, and repeatedly found to be consistent over the last 15 years:https://www.npr.org/2012/02/01/146204308/why-millions-of-americans-have-no-government-idMost people aren't in wheelchairs... but we still require ADA-compliance in public buildings.I can only imagine if ADA-compliant services were treated like photo ID services."Oh yes, you can use the wheelchair ramp on the 4th Wednesday of the month between 10 AM and 2 PM. But you have to use the ramp in the other county 20 miles from here."https://www.texasobserver.org/lawmakers-killed-a-plan-to-shut-down-87-drivers-licenses-offices-thats-good-news-for-voters/https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-ELECTION/VOTING-RESTRICTIONS/znvnbdjbkvl/

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 07:48:48 pm
content: Quote from: HuronKing on September 27, 2024, 04:36:01 pmYou provided one hopefully impartial link, from the GAO, and that specifically applies to the homeless. I expect the homeless to have a hard time over all sorts of issues. Often its hard for them to even demonstrate that they are eligible for things like ID, because they lack the basic documentation needed to even prove citizenship. They are a special case, and probably need to be treated as such.The claim that's usually made is the problem with ID is widespread among lower income people. Your other links are people trying to create a story. Their claims are the ones needing to be more seriously researched.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 08:59:03 pm
content: Quoteseems the old system worked well enoughQuotemeanwhileQuoteandQuotesourcehttps://www.electoralcommission.org.uk

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 09:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 27, 2024, 08:25:58 amBut they are fair. And Rust is secure. How dare you.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 10:28:47 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 27, 2024, 09:59:44 amLOL you don't know me if you think I'm a Trump supporter. I have plans to buy a cake if someone shoots him. That said AmericadeservesTrump, but the rest of us don't deserve the consequences by proxy.As for election fraud, let's put it this way. I was heavily involved at a company related to the whole Cambridge Analytica group scandal. Voters are modelled in three pools: red, blue, transient. Our job was to measure the effect of electoral probability based on sentiment analysis through advertising and media channels so that effective manipulation of the transient voters could be made through the same channels. This was heavily demographic and ward targeted. We literally had people cranking terabytes of sentiment data and one of the largest panels in the world. That went back into decision analysis tooling which produced effective advertising, political and media campaigns.It doesn't matter if you use electronic / paper or if you have ID or not. People are thick as shit and are easy to manipulate.So that's why it's easy to manipulate an outcome.An opposite case here is if you look at how terribly Reform UK did in the last election comparing votes to seats. They had no analytics or mathematical model behind their operation. Mostly because I suspect they are thick as shit.I would like however to point out that once I learned the structure, the nature of and the operation that was going on at a bunch of legitimate looking analytics and statistics companies, I walked the fuck out of there and didn't look back. My life would be different now if I didn't as I lost out on about £2m worth of stock from it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 10:33:50 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 27, 2024, 08:59:03 pmWorth noting that due to the relative insensitivity of FPTP to statistical anomalies which are widely distributed and relatively insignificant like that, the change of an outcome is utterly improbable.People really need to do a stats course or something...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 10:39:56 pm
content: In Al Gore's 2008 memoir "The Assault on Reason", he mentioned that in one of his senate races a consultant told him to do a certain thing, and it would raise his poll results by a certain amount.When that worked, he became worried about the process.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 10:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 27, 2024, 10:39:56 pmExactly that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 11:26:24 pm
content: Well, why would anyone think parties spend tens of millions of dollars on campaigns if there was no way of influencing the votes? Just for fun?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 02:28:29 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 23, 2024, 01:26:36 pmWhat is the answer to the problem of people who don't agree with the "benevolent dictator"?Benevolent Gulags?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 02:52:17 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 23, 2024, 06:56:22 pmWas that the Junta?---but they self selected!But, joking aside, neither the ancient Greek Democracy, or the Roman Republic, where the names of both simply signify rule by the the people, rather than a Monarch, but don't identify "which people" would pass muster as "democratic" under the modern definition.Numerous people were prevented from voting for various reasons which seemed right & proper to the "clever people" of the time.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 03:51:25 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 27, 2024, 08:25:58 amAustralia has a number of things which make vote tampering messy as hell to perform.(1) Compulsory voting---if you don't vote you are fined (it isn't a very big fine at all, but it seems to do its job).Everybody who is on the Electoral roll for that electorate is expected to vote, so just "losing" a bunch of voting papers will set off an alarm.As voting is both a right&a duty, it follows that anyone who willfully prevents another person from voting commits a crime.This latter was probably because the Founding Fathers of Govt in this country had a poor view of human nature, & could envisage various"interested groups" employing thugs to stop people who were likely to vote against their favoured candidate.Next we come to substituting your candidate's votes for those which were on the original papers, which is much more time consuming.(2) Preferential voting, which means a voter must select candidates in order of the voter's preference.This means that the substituted vote papers must all show a spread of preferences----a whole swag of identical ones would probably look suspicious.As well as that, the votes are revisited multiple times as each unsuccessful candidate has their vote transferred to the voter's second, third, etc., candidate---again anything weird is likely to stand out.(3) Just as in the UK--"single member electorates" so you will have to tamper with multiple polling booths in multiple electorates to be sure of an effective result.(4) The Australian Electoral Commission----- elections & votes is all that they do, & they do it very well, indeed.All things considered, it is more economically viable for "bad actors" to spend their money on adverse propaganda against the candidates they don't favour.There is, after all, no law against bullshit!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 04:48:42 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 27, 2024, 05:33:07 pmIn Australia, if you are otherwise eligible, when you turn 18, you automatically go on the Electoral Roll.On voting day, you "front up" at the polling booth, where the worker has a book in front of them, with all the voters for that Electorate.You say your full name & address, the polling booth worker asks "Have you voted elsewhere today?", you say "No."They rule your name out in the book & hand you a voting slip.You take the slip to a booth, fill in your vote, carry it to a sealed box & place it in the box.The only people who can vote are those on the Electoral Roll, so once their name is crossed off, nobody can vote in that name.It an imposter turns up & tries, they will be rejected, & if they got there first the true voter will later be rejected, complain, & the Commission will start an investigation, which will invalidate the imposter's vote.As to Postal voting, in this country, the voter obtains an application for a Postal vote, fills it out & sends it to the Electoral Commission, who, in turn, send back a voting form, the voter fills it out, places it in a provided unmarked envelope, which is the placed in another envelope & mailed back to the AEC.There are a lot of people that a Postal vote is convenient for, particularly those who with mobility problems, or even just bad arthritis, where standing in a queue at the polling booth would be very painful.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 05:01:20 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 27, 2024, 11:26:24 pmThe thing is, those things are legal, if utterly unethical.Actually tampering with the vote can make you end up as Bubba's "new special friend".

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 12:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 27, 2024, 10:28:47 pmYour arrogance is disgusting. "People" doesn't include you, of course - apparently you live on a higher intellectual plane than everyone else. The reality is that "people" have an average IQ of 100 (by definition), with a distribution either side. Some of these people you consider to be "thick as shit" are doctors, scientists, academics, as well delivery drivers, carers, shop assistants. All of them are equal in the voting booth, whether you like it or not.Quote from: bd139 on September 27, 2024, 10:28:47 pmHey, wait, maybe you are dumb after all if you thought you could get away with that one. Nobody's talking about "manipulating" the outcome - you've just brought that up. The whole point of campaigning is to manipulate the outcome. We were talking about election FRAUD - totally, totally different.Quote from: bd139 on September 27, 2024, 10:28:47 pmAgain, you come across as an insufferably arrogant prick, talking like that about your fellow citizens. What about the members of your family - mum and dad, etc: are they "thick as shit", too?

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 01:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 26, 2024, 10:04:31 pmJepp. Example:https://youtu.be/14yaFU-0wXs

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 03:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 28, 2024, 12:50:26 pmSo you don't have a problem when campaigning resorts to outright lies and deceit? People on the whole are poorly placed to vote in their own interest which is generally equal to that of the nation. This is why politicians run around promising the earth because essentially most people, yes the vast majority want everything they can get for free without paying for it. This is why creative accounting exists. people will use any loophole to get out of tax. Meanwhile I have often heard the sort of people who have to fill out a tax return side with high people who get caught being too creative and getting exposed in the media because they jolly well know that if they could do that they would too. But wait until they can't get a public service that they now deem their right? Wait until you hear them tell you all about how they have to pay 40% tax on their earnings to make it sound like they are hard done by or more entitled because in reality like everyone they get a £12.5k or whatever it is now tax free, then they pay 20% on anything up to whatever it is like £45k and then they will pay 40% on what could be the last £5k. Oh no, in their heads they pay more tax than they get to keep. These are the sort of totally unobjective people that cast votes in the UK and anywhere in the world. And that is what political campaigning panders to. And the fact that people can lie that hard to themselves before they do it to anyone else is why distorted campaigns hurt us all.I think the paper exercise will tell you that the best form of government is a benign dictatorship. The problem is that power corrupts even the best intentioned people and so there is no best solution and we sure work hard to make it even worse for ourselves.This last election I thought to myself that I would just vote for anyone that would stand on a mandate of doing the right thing without all the promises. But of course everyone was going to give us this and that. I mean take doctors, no political party can promise in good faith more doctors. Where will they come from? Firstly it takes at least 5 years for a doctor to do university, so that is this parliamentary term out. And before you do that you need to increase the university places in what is a privately run university sector. And before they even start looking for the extra tutors they will need to convince students to take the courses, stick with it, qualify and enter practice etc. Give it 10 years at a squeeze if the start the day they get into office. But you have to promise the voters something.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 03:17:25 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 28, 2024, 04:48:42 amHow well maintained is that register? Are all the dead, emigrants, and others who are no longer eligible to vote removed in a timely manner? In some places poor management of the register seems to have been used to enable false voting in significant numbers. If pollsters track who never votes, someone can vote in their name, without risk. A lot more than you describe needs to be catered for to keep things clean. Billions are spent in major elections to persuade people. There is always money around to get the unscrupulous to do unscrupulous things.Quote from: vk6zgo on September 28, 2024, 04:48:42 amIts really hard to ensure you get a freely chosen vote from the actual registered voter in that kind of setup. Its an open secret that many clannish groups all vote for whoever deals with their mail in votes. These are usually at a family level, and probably don't have much effect on outcomes, but there are cults who can make a big difference. However much this problem is discussed, nothing gets done about it. If you issue mail in votes only to those registered as disabled, or who can show evidence of being out of area on voting day, that should put your system in a fair and balanced place for mail in voting, without serious risk of the process being corrupted.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 03:19:38 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 28, 2024, 03:08:43 pmWho gets to arbitrate what is true?

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 03:55:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 28, 2024, 03:17:25 pmThe second component of Australia's compulsory voting system is what ensures the register is maintained, that component is the penalty issued for failing to vote.If a dead person is issued a penalty notice, the deceased estate can reply with a copy of the death certificate.If an emigrant is issued a penalty notice, the emigrant can reply with their citizenship documents.In both cases, the registry is updated and voter removed from the roll.In other words, the Australian government will pursue you for failing to vote, and it is through this process that the registry is maintained accurately.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 04:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 28, 2024, 03:55:01 pmI like the idea of compulsory voting with a "None of the above" box. Does Australia have that? How well does it work in practice?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 04:29:23 pm
content: Quotethere are lies, damned lies and election manifestos

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 04:45:15 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 28, 2024, 03:08:43 pm"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others which are even worster." A benign dictatorship is an appealing idea, but as you say human nature prevents dictatorship from remaining benign.Back to what you said before: are your own mum and dad "as thick as shit"? And your mates? Your GP? Are you the only person you know who isn't "as thick as shit?"

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 05:20:03 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 28, 2024, 03:19:38 pmSome of what is said does not need arbitration. a fact is a fact. There are plenty of programs already that take claims apart and find that in all reasonableness, this was a total lie. Politicians will literally make anything up when desperate. All ya have to do is ask for the reasoning or evidence and you will just question evasion. When that happens they are lying, simple.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 05:39:43 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 28, 2024, 12:50:26 pmQuotation marks change it to a straw man.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manPeople are thick as shit, first they whine how thing are and then go and elect the same old faces.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 05:51:51 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 28, 2024, 04:45:15 pmSadly there are very few of us that just want things to be right, too few to make a difference. Most will be voting on some personal or ideological issue and ignore everything else.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 06:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 28, 2024, 12:50:26 pmMy domain of knowledge is literally this. I could be called a domain expert. Other things not so much. You want to see my surgery! If I was commenting on that then I would be an idiot.I’m well aware that IQ is normalised around 100. As for relating profession to intelligence I wouldn’t do that. There are plenty of people in academic and medical positions with little critical reasoning ability. Might want to read some psychotherapy papers and check out their sampling methodology for example. Also any idiot can pass an IQ test. It’s a poor cognitive test really. You can learn how to answer a standardised test.Anyway you missed the argument, which suggests something perhaps. The argument is that whatever boring methodology you use, the outcome bias is independent to the methodology and is mostly the counting and influence. The vote itself is at this point mostly pointless.And yes at least half of people are below average, to use your own gun (assuming a sufficiently large population is normal, which it mostly is). You’re at the mercy of them. If it wasn’t effective, marketing as a field would not exist.As for my parents. My father was a Musk simp. My mother was a calculator. She was the brains of the operation they are both dead. And we are mostly a result of nurture which is why my early point stands that education is important because without it, people do not develop critical reasoning and are easy to manipulate.As I have done here by triggering your emotional response.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 06:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 28, 2024, 05:51:51 pmThat is the travesty of it all. I figured a while ago that it’s done for and I’ll look after my immediate family and friends as best as I can and that’s it. If I can protect my kids from society by helping their education then they’ll last through any change.(Unless there is a socialist uprising and they kill the educated people again)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 07:07:57 pm
content: Oh I got one step ahead of you and decided not to have children. They won't be my own anyway, they will be the children of society or they will have a shit childhood and grow up to be misery guts like me. I think my generation will be the last to not have it really rough.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 07:16:21 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 28, 2024, 07:07:57 pmI think it depends on how many and what capacity you have to provide for them and how much influence you can have and what sort of influence. I try to motivate mine to be educated and leave them to it, which is working so far fortunately.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 07:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 28, 2024, 04:24:56 pmNot exactly.When the voter is issued the ballot paper (either postal or in person at the polling booth), the voter can leave the ballot unmarked, or more often than not, deface it with graffiti and other rude words and/or rude drawings. The ballot is inserted into the ballot box to be counted along with every other ballot.An improperly marked ballot is declared "informal" and does not count towards any candidate, but is tabulated for statistical purposes.Unfortunately the catch-all category of informal ballots cannot be broken down into further classifications, for example, someone who chooses "none of the above", someone with unclear handwriting, and someone who uses ticks/crosses or circles the candidate's name (the correct technique is numbering boxes).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 08:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 28, 2024, 05:20:03 pmA fact is rarely simply a fact. For example, A says B said C. The fact checkers go to work and say "A IS A LYING PIECE OF HUMAN GARBAGE, BECAUSE B DIDN'T SAY C". Then you look and find B said essentially what was claimed, but worded slightly differently, or some slightly wrong terminology was used. That's fact checking in 2024.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 10:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 28, 2024, 08:51:59 pmYes there is certainly plenty of that. I am ignoring what a fact is entirely, as that's debatable, past is it verifiable or not. I mean I'd expect some formal proofs but it's pretty difficult conceptualising human concepts which are so abstract from any proof system.So keeping it high level, fact checking is often built on poorly contrived inductive reasoning. That breaks down due to generalisation failures and bias in the fact checkers themselves. But again and I have to divert the topic to a higher level: that isn't even the thing. It is extremely difficult to verify large quantities of bits of information so if you want to sound credible, say lots of things which are feasible and the odd insane thing here and there . People will concentrate on the insane things and defend the other stuff you say even if some of it is bollocks. The fact checkers will also have limited bandwidth and will concentrate on the fringe statements and insanity.And now you know how Boris Johnson works... (think about the news today about invading the Netherlands and why that was really a thing)This is incidentally a good strategy if you wish to force a hand in a decision. If you make an extreme point, then retract it, your other arguments sound more reasonable. Unless you're Trump who appears to be meat ChatGPT fed on a corpus of street crackhead ramblings. Sells books!

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 10:31:35 pm
content: There are several well-regarded fact-check websites in the US, such as Snopes.com and PolitiFact.com.Typical results are when a candidate says inflation during his opponent’s term was the worst in history, but the data shows it was much higher in 1980, and in the 1970s.Sometimes, this is due to confusion between cumulative and annual inflation, and sometimes just from saying something without research that sounds good to the audience.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 10:33:16 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 28, 2024, 08:51:59 pmScientists/engineers and politicians differ in their treatment of facts. The former can (generally!) accept when they're incorrect, the latter must always be correct.It's also interesting to note that some contributors to internet discussions & debates on Twitter/X, Facebook, or EEVblog, must always be correct as well.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 06:06:59 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 28, 2024, 04:24:56 pmYes, the "none of the above" option is called "voting informal" which is where you simply do not make any marks on the voting slip, but just place it directly in the box.There are very few informal votes, as with a fair number of smaller parties there is usually someone to vote for as the first preference, who will meet the expectations of the voter.Preferential voting gives the voter the opportunity to effectively "vote against" whatever of the large parties they dislike the most, & there is always the outside chance that the small party candidate will win.Mostly, it ends up being a playoff between the two big parties.Some countries have a series of "playoff" elections over many weeks---"Preferential voting" achieves the same end in one election.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 08:09:24 am
content: Quote from: coppice on September 28, 2024, 08:51:59 pmyou mean because we have social media it's always and impossibly long trail to get to why what is said may be wrong, and who has the patience for that. but the masses want rampant social media because once again willing to live under a delusion they feed to themselves they dream of being more popular than the others so we have to have social media. Then the president of the united states tells us that all he knows is what he "reads" on the internet. In other words, pick the lie you want, there is a ready supply and you can claim it has a source. Basically circular referencing.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 09:51:00 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 28, 2024, 06:04:07 pmYou are still asserting that the counting is corrupt but you haven't offered any objective evidence to back that up. Without evidence, you are simply arguing by assertion. And I repeat what I said: the evidence for election fraud here in the West is vanishingly small. You seem unable to separate in your head the difference between bias and influence (which is legitimate campaigning) and fraud (which isn't).Quote from: bd139 on September 28, 2024, 06:04:07 pmNot sure of your point here. You are simply pointing out one of the shortcomings of democracy, which has never been disputed. The challenge for you is to find something better.Quote from: bd139 on September 28, 2024, 06:04:07 pmYou're a bus ride away from triggering an emotional response in me. Pointing out your arrogance is intended to raise questions about your argument. Maybe you need it explaining: the only arguments worth making in a debate like this are rational ones; arguments based on personal arrogance have no value and so waste everyone's time.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 11:01:35 am
content: Quote from: BU508A on September 28, 2024, 01:18:32 pmIn Oz, the AEC & its State counterparts run the Elections, the former for Federal elections & the latter for State elections.Mayors, or other local government officials have no say in the matter.Again, as I said before, compulsory voting implies that trying to prevent people voting is illegal, & those that do try will find themselves "up before the Beak", just like any other common criminal.Australians are bemused by the US system, particularly how Elections are held on weekdays when most people are at work, & to add insult to injury, employers can prevent their workers from leaving work to vote without incurring any penalty.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 12:21:44 pm
content: I am bemused by the moderators’ tolerance for political discussions. This one has been going on for days, and the mods, who are usually quick to shut down any thread criticizing Russia’s war, whether political or not, are surprisingly turning a blind eye to this thread. Have the forum rules changed?PS. Should I throw a wrench into this discussion, by describing how elections are held in Russia, to get it locked promptly?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 01:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: vad on September 29, 2024, 12:21:44 pmThe reason the thread is still running is because it's not harming anyone. A few people objected to it and asked for it to be locked, but when it was explained to them that they didn't have to click on it in the first place they said "Oh, yeah - duh!" and went elsewhere.FWIW I think it might, at last, have run its course, but the normal treatment is to let such threads die a natural death. Euthanasia is rarely required.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 01:11:10 pm
content: Quote from: vad on September 29, 2024, 12:21:44 pmThe thread has largely avoided complaining about any one real world implementation of voting, and mostly talked about the engineering aspects of what makes them more or less trustworthy. That means its on topic for an engineering forum.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 01:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 29, 2024, 01:06:40 pmI respectfully disagree. This thread, at the very least, instigates distrust in the political system (representative democracy, that is) and the electoral processes in the country named in the subject of this thread during elections. At most, it could be considered direct election interference, as it names some of the candidates running. The outcome of such direct or indirect interference could harm people, including, for instance, the many thousands of Ukrainian children kidnapped by Russia.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 01:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: vad on September 29, 2024, 01:20:59 pmYou are SUPPOSED to distrust a political system, even if it is currently functioning well. It will only continue to function well if distrustful people keep scrutinising it. Well constructed constitution documents, like the US one, call upon the populous to distrust the government, and keep it under continuous scrutiny.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 01:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 29, 2024, 01:25:48 pmI could be wrong, but it seems like you’re confusing the government with the political system.The technical discussion ended many days ago. This thread should be locked, in my opinion.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 01:44:23 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 29, 2024, 11:01:35 amIt's a pretty old system.Wednesday is a market day and Monday is a travel day.1st day shop keepers do their books and November is after harvest.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 01:49:06 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 29, 2024, 09:51:00 amI have learned over the years not to continue arguments with lower primates.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 01:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 29, 2024, 01:25:48 pmCorrect.Verify, do not trust.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 02:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 29, 2024, 11:01:35 amThe US is a federal republic, and elections are run by the States. This question varies from State to State:https://www.maynardnexsen.com/publication-an-election-year-reminder-to-employers-know-your-states-voting-leave-lawsHowever, the Federal Government does mandate the date for elections to Federal office: the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November.In many states, there are other election dates for State and local offices only.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 02:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: m k on September 29, 2024, 01:44:23 pmMost people worked 6 days a week, and Sunday was out of the question when that was very sabbath focussed.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 04:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 29, 2024, 11:01:35 amAs long as provisions are made to allow for voters reasonable time to cast their ballot beforehand (i.e. postal voting, pre-poll voting), then even such weekday voting should be no unusual impediment. This is of particular importance for voters who work overseas, a phenomenon that didn't exist when election day was first constituted/legislated.Even the Australian system allows for a mechanism for voting before voting day. Admittedly, the Australian system likely gets abused heavily (the Australian system requires the voter to proffer a reason for being unable to vote on election day, but the reason is never tested, examined for truthfulness).

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 04:44:44 pm
content: Quote from: vad on September 29, 2024, 01:20:59 pmOMG, that is the most ridiculous post in the whole thread!Do you SERIOUSLY think that discussing the shortcomings of democracy and the voting system ACTUALLY CONSTITUTES ELECTION INTERFERENCE?? That is the most extraordinary claim I've ever read and it just shows how utterly twisted out of shape some people's reasoning is.You think that us clowns chatting about democracy could put the lives of Ukrainian children at risk? Do you seriously think anyone gives the tiniest flying fuck what we say between us? Do you seriously think Putin's men are watching this thread and - thanks to the arguments put forth - have begun thinking they need to kill some schoolchildren? SERIOUSLY?I'm so glad I don't share a planet with you, because you're obviously not from Earth.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 05:06:30 pm
content: An interesting recent overblown controversy in American elections is the use of mail-in voting.Several features:--A famous political candidate fulminated against mail-in ballots because he thought those results were probably against him.--Meanwhile, the head of the US Postal Service implemented policies that did not improve timely delivery of mail.--Prior to that, the State of Utah had already gone to a mail-in procedure for voting, where every registered voter is sent a ballot (in person voting is still allowed).https://vote.utah.gov/securing-your-mail-ballot/--The State of Utah has voted solidly Republican for decades, and almost nobody there has complained about the current procedure. The last Democrat to win Utah's presidential vote was in the landslide of 1964.Some say that "It depends upon whose ox is gored" dates back to Martin Luther, but others claim a Roman or Hebrew Bible origin for the now-ancient phrase.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 05:08:40 pm
content: QuoteAre they also bemused by the uk ,that always hold elections on a thursday (unless theres a world cup),but the polling station is open fro 7AM -10PM so plenty of time to get in and vote.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 05:12:26 pm
content: In Illinois (US), the polling hours are 6 AM through 7 PM (13 hours) to allow working people to vote.(Early voting and mail voting are also allowed.)

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 05:34:20 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on September 29, 2024, 09:51:00 amWhile I believe that the percentage of fraudulent votes is extremely small here in the USA, our Electoral College method of counting the presidential vote (each state gets a certain number of votes, somewhat proportional to population, but weighted to give smaller states less of a disadvantage), as well as the "winner take all" method used in some states to allocate their Electoral College votes makes it easier for what fraud there is to influence the election. Even though we seem to be ridiculously polarized here the popular vote is often very close, so small "errors" can make a big difference. This why we talk so much about "swing states". This is also one reason that we are skeptical of these new election policies where ballots that arrive long after election day can still be counted. This (in theory) gives bad actors time to direct fraudulent ballots to where they will have the most impact.Note that I'm not saying that Trump didn't legitimately lose the election, but there is a rich history here of being concerned about fraud. Here's a quote (fictional?) from the movie "Nixon":QuoteThere were plenty of well-documented cases of the Chicago "machine" (and elsewhere) submitting "graveyard votes" from long-dead residents and similar chicanery.A pure popular vote would solve some of this sensitivity to fraud, But I do appreciate the value in giving the smaller states an edge. Otherwise California and New York would always determine the winner, and there is a significant difference among the states when it comes to political and social philosoply.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 05:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 29, 2024, 05:12:26 pmWhere I live (on an island between Washington State and Vancouver Island) we have no polling place, but instead everyone mails in their ballot or drops it off in a box in front of the "city hall". We get the ballots in the mail several weeks ahead of time and can submit them up until election day. There's probably a grace period to allow for slow US Mail delivery.I'm happy with this method, and doubt that there is significant fraud, but I am concerned that the voter rolls aren't purged effectively. I believe that if you don't vote in a few sequential elections your name should be dropped from the rolls. But my daughter used to live there and voted, but moved away over ten years ago and we still get her mail-in ballot. I could vote twice if I wanted and I doubt that it would be caught.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 06:24:23 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on September 29, 2024, 05:45:04 pmYou should really watch this video:

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 06:58:14 pm
content: I once had to explain to a "wingnut" co-worker that the election reporting on television the night of the election were not the official results.In each jurisdiction, there is a "canvass" some time after the polls close.https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/electionofficials/QuickStartGuides/Canvass_and_Certification_EAC_Quick_Start_Guide_508.pdfThe deadlines vary from State to Statehttps://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/canvass-deadlinesAgain, our former President moaned that the reports on TV shifted from candidate to candidate as the informal results were reported from jurisdictions of different populations, obviously a plot against him.My memory shows several elections during my lifetime when the informal result was not known before midnight on Election Day.The results in the extremely tight contest between Bush and Gore in November 7, 2000 were not final until a Supreme Court decision on December 12.Post-mortem analyses by different academic groups showed different results in Florida, where the results determined the final electoral count.If Gore had won his home state of Tennessee, the Florida vote, with a reported margin of 327 votes would not have mattered.The final result, including Florida's 25 electoral votes, gave Bush a 1 vote margin in the Electoral College.Gore did not fight the case after the Court decision, but he did win the popular vote.In 2000 and 2016, the popularr vote winner lost the Electoral College.The court case actually was to stop a proposed recount of the Florida vote, and is widely considered to have been political in nature.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 07:02:46 pm
content: Quote from: BU508A on September 29, 2024, 06:24:23 pmIf you find that video interesting, try watching a few more about people manipulating US voting. Both parties have a dreadful history of playing the Gerrymandering card. This could be a really major issue for democracy going forwards. There is now software which will model an area, and figure out how to redistrict it to achieve pretty much any desired outcome. The only time it appears to fail to find a solution is when the area is so small it lacks enough diversity to mix things up in a suitable way. The problem is redistricting is a necessity. Some areas grow in population, and some decline. You can't set districts in stone for all time. You certainly have problems keeping it fair and reasonable, though.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 07:03:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 29, 2024, 07:02:46 pmThat's exactly what was being done in the UK.Also fortunately why Farage just about scraped shit hole Clacton and some shit hole in Lincolnshire. He wasn't using anything like that.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 07:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: BU508A on September 29, 2024, 06:24:23 pmSpeaking of odd, I do find that ballot drop boxes a bit silly and redundant. What's wrong with using the conventional postal mail system? If the existing postal system is inadequate, then measures should be taken to improve them, rather than create a parallel system!

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 07:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 29, 2024, 07:02:46 pmIn Australia, we have an independent body that redistricts new boundaries. Our boundaries are never drafted by the incumbent party (or opposing party) alone.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 07:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 29, 2024, 07:09:24 pmThere is no such thing as an independent body. Its full of people, and people are partisan. The best you can hope for is a body made up of people from all sides, and hope there aren't too many of them gaming the system, by expressing views they don't really hold, to get in and manipulate the outcome.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 07:27:52 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 29, 2024, 07:05:18 pmAlthough the Post Office is a feature of the main body of the US Constitution, recent trends have been to eliminate public subsidies thereof.The current Postmaster General of the US Postal Service (no longer a cabinet post, as held by Benjamin Franklin back in the day) is from the private sector (logistics and freight) and a heavy political contributor.His former companies hold contracts with the USPS.His cost-cutting decisions, including scrapping many high-speed sorting machines, were controversial and did not speed delivery.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 07:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 29, 2024, 07:14:15 pmThat's exactly what I mean by independent. Our redistricting body is indeed made up people from all sides. Definitely NOT one sided like US gerrymandering.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 08:01:40 pm
content: Quote from: vad on September 29, 2024, 12:21:44 pmmaybe try starting at the beginning? why are political threads usually shut down? What has not happened in this thread that usually gets a topic locked quickly? Why are you so intolerant of people expressing an opinion?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 08:18:33 pm
content: In the US, decennial redistricting has been mandated since several Supreme Court decisions in 1962 to 1964 about States that hadn't bothered to re-district since 1901 or so.However, since redistricting is done by State legislatures, clever partisans can achieve numerically reasonable districts that favor the political party in power in the legislature.The original "gerrymander" was done in 1812 when E Gerry was Governor of Massachusetts (he pronounced his surname with a hard G, but the portmanteau word is normally pronounced with a soft G).It can be considered an original sin of US politics.Recent academic work has proposed algorithmic redistricting, such as "minimum isoperimetric quotient", while other academics have generated algorithms to optimize the gerrymander for the party in power: until recently, Wisconsin had perhaps the most complete gerrymander mathematically possible, based on work by academic consultants, using similar mathematics to those who analyze existing districts for gerrymander.This is further complicated by court decisions that invalidate districting that reduces minority representation, but not districting that reduces political party representation.The former consideration has resulted in geographic districts that are more extreme than Gerry's original one.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 10:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on September 21, 2024, 11:27:12 pmI've asked him multiple times to stop, since it reduces legibility. He insists it improves it, but it's again him imposing his taste on others, rather than allowing every reader to choose the font settings that are best for them.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 11:22:21 pm
content: Quote from: m k on September 29, 2024, 01:44:23 pmYes, I have heard the back story, but it is still silly.Even if they kept the current days & made it an offence for employers to penalise employees for taking the time off to vote it would be an improvement.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 11:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 29, 2024, 07:14:15 pmIn any group in this country, around 50% are partisan for one side, & 50% for the other.Decisions are made on a strictly population basis, with no idea of who votes for one party or the other.If a redistribution favoured one party against the other, the "injured" party would scream long & loud!We don't have "primaries" which is a step back from the "grass roots democracy" aspect of such contests, but has the advantage that there are no voters "registered' for one party or the other, so in a large area there is no real way of "carving out" those areas that vote against your favoured party.When I walk into a polling booth, nobody knows who I vote for, unless I care to tell them.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2024, 11:37:59 pm
content: The United States contains various religious groups whose members observe the Sabbath on different days.I'm not aware of any who keep Tuesday as a sacred day.Which group should we offend?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 05:42:09 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 29, 2024, 11:37:59 pmThose who hold Saturday sacred don't seem to have a problem with it in Australia.After all, voting is a duty, & soldiers from those groups don't abandon their duty on their sacred day.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 11:02:22 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 29, 2024, 10:09:45 pmYou are free to choose whatever fonts settings you like, for any post you read. This is not altered by my choice of formatting. I will not be bullied into changing how and where I post, by you, or anyone else.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 11:05:13 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 29, 2024, 05:08:40 pmAdditionally, in the UK, if you are in the queue to vote, by 10pm, even if this queue is a mile long (exaggeration for effect), you will be allowed to vote, no matter how long it takes to actually get to marking your ballot paper.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 11:51:23 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 30, 2024, 11:02:22 amYes it is - because your text will override the stylesheet. AFAIK there's no way to override the rules you've applied without manually editing the HTML.From my perspective I don't mind, but it is a little odd to me. If you want teal-coloured Trebuchet text you can add your own stylesheet to the forum attached to the 'post.inner' element. This can be done using many browser plugins that are freely available. That would make everyone's text match that, besides users who have set their own text colour/font/etc.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 01:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 29, 2024, 11:35:55 pmThis seems like a very reasonable argument, yet really twisted districting happens a lot across the planet, and there are numerous articles and documentaries about how messed up it is, yet little really changes.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 02:16:27 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 30, 2024, 11:05:13 amSimilarly, in the US, to vote in person you only need to be in the line by the closing time prescribed by local statute.In some locations, where one party is desperate to minimize voting, it is now illegal for third parties to give water to those standing in line.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 06:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 30, 2024, 02:16:27 pmWhile this may sound terrible, it is probably in line with prior statutes that prohibited serving whiskey within 200 feet of polls and other similar restrictions to restrict small bribes (I'll give you a double shot of Old Stomach Killer if you vote for my guy"). No doubt all such laws are abused, in both directions, but the intent is not always evil.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 07:17:50 pm
content: QuoteA similar idea is supposedly one of the reason the uk don't vote on friday. Most people were paid on a friday and the call of the pub was greater than the call of the polling booth

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2024, 07:22:04 pm
content: Illinois used to have a statute forbidding the sale of alcohol (both on- and off-premises) while the polls were open, but lobbying from the baseball teams and liquor retailers resulted in its repeal.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 01:38:21 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 30, 2024, 06:26:00 pmThere would be a lot of empty bottles of "Old Stomach Killer" & a lot of happy liars then, as who knows who anyone voted for.It's not like you could repossess the grog if your guy lost.It could also be a deciding factor for some otherwise wavering teetotalers to vote against your candidate.Meanwhile, Australian polling booths actually have "sausage sizzles" run by various non-political organisations.The advantage of Saturday voting is that most people are able to get to a polling booth sometime during the day, or they can vote early at a couple of nominated sites, have a postal vote or if they are away within this country, vote as an absentee at any other polling booth.If they are in another country, they can vote at the nearest Australian Consular office.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 03:42:10 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 01, 2024, 01:38:21 amNone of the vote steering things are very effective. But when votes are close, sometimes a tiny fraction of a percent difference, even marginally effective methods work. In my state all voting is done by mail, with the minor exception that once the ballot is mailed to you, you have the option of physically depositing the ballot in a collection box instead of mailing it back in. There are loud complaints about the possibilities for abuse, but so far the investigations have found only a handful of questionable ballots. But as one Senate race in Minnesota demonstrated, one vote can be the difference.In my state the real opportunity for shenanigans is in the registration process, but even here there has been little demonstrated problem. That is probably mostly because there aren't large scale problems, but it hasn't really been thoroughly and effectively investigated.

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 07:49:49 pm
content: I sure hope after 12 pages you guys are close to discovering whether the US provides all critical electronic design knowledge to the world.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 07:53:00 pm
content: Perhaps we should vote on that.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 09:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: Echo88 on October 01, 2024, 07:49:49 pmMaybe the population is just, on average, smarter than others. I've heard it argued that most people in Europe during the 16th to 19th centuries lived in abject poverty, but only a subset of them had the balls to walk away from everything they knew, get on a ship to an unknown land, and hope it all turned out alright. Maybe these particular qualities are more prevalent in the US for that reason.Also, like Australia, the US is tremendously lucky. A relatively small population (for the size of the place) surrounded by vast resources. It must have been easy to generate wealth, and with a small population to share it over, everyone gets rich. Look at Australia: 27 million people sharing a continent bigger than Europe. Dig up some coal and minerals, sell it to the Chinese, and we're all living like royalty.Something special happened in America after WW2. Their aerospace industry went supernova and achieved some truly astonishing things. Justten yearsafter the end of WW2, and justtwo yearsafter being proposed, Lockheed was flying the U2 at 70,000 feet.A mere 7 more years passed before the A12 took to the air, and two years after that the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird began flying. Nineteen years after WW2 the Americans had produced the fastest ever operational aircraft in the world, and the highest. It cruised at Mach 3.2 - faster than any other aircraft could sprint - at an altitude of 85,000 feet. It was astonishing, magnificent, extraordinary, glorious, and we're still in 1964! Several crashed in service or testing, but not one was ever lost to enemy action. It's worth pointing out that - prototypes aside - no operational aircraft has matched or exceeded the altitude and speed records set in the 1960s by the Blackbird. What an amazing achievement.And of course there's the other thing: the Apollo programme. In less than a decade the US went from a statement of intent to placing a human on the moon and bringing them back again. Wow.So the US had one hell of a technological golden age in the decades after WW2. It was more than just unlimited money. There must have been something special going on - a culture of "can do" like we haven't seen before.I don't know exactly what, or why, it happened. But it was a hell of a thing. As it happens I think the US has peaked already and is now on the way down. My own country - the UK - peaked about about a hundred years earlier and remains about a century ahead of the US in its downward curve. America is still riding high on that extraordinary wave of achievement, and that is why it provides all the critical electronic design knowledge in the world.Except it isn't really "all" about the US. Widening the remit to include technology in general, we have: graphene* (UK), Maglev trains (UK, then Japan), 5G (China, South Korea), World Wide Web (CERN), lithium ion batteries (Japan), digital photography (Japan).*Graphene: a solution looking for a problem for the past 20 years.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 11:13:33 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on October 01, 2024, 09:18:42 pmWhile there may be something to the genetic selection argument, and definitely is truth in the population to resources ratio, I really think there was mostly a cultural thing going on in that golden age. The US was part of the side that came out on top in a massive war, leading to the confidence and can do attitude, along with a comfort in breaking a few eggs to make an omelet. Most of the population and all of the leadership had survived the pre-war economic disaster and so had a firm grip on the difference between needs and desires. And the desire to never have to do big war again from scratch led to an intensity in competition with potential rivals.Most of those drivers have faded into memory. The few survivors of the depression are no longer leaders. Same with those who remember the horror and hardship of WWII. And there was a significant lull in the non-economic competition from abroad. So now fairness, cleanliness and comfort are the leading values. Which may be a good thing, but doesn't lead to rapid progress. Exhibit A is SpaceX being punished for discharging "industrial waste water" which was actually drinking water. Several months delay will occur in the next Starship flight because of concerns which wouldn't even occurred to the developers of the SR-71 or the Apollo program.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2024, 11:53:23 pm
content: "genetic selection argument" my arse.A lot of the success started with a giant mountain of (gov't and industry) money sucking talent from the rest of the world starting withOperation Paperclip. Once through the meat grinder it all becomes American made.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 04:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: Echo88 on October 01, 2024, 07:49:49 pm

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2025, 01:25:27 pm
content: I'm pretty close

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2025, 03:02:56 pm
content: With Respect-To-Semiconductor-Electronics, where were these first invented/developed:Point Contact TransistorMESA TransistorJFETMOSFETICOp-Amp ICSRAM ChipDRAM ChipVoltage Reference ChipLinear Regulator ChipDAC ChipADC ChipMicrocontrollerMicroprocessorImaging ChipI'm sure the list can go on and on.And also the facilities/companies behind these like:Bell LabsFairchild SemiconductorIntelNational SemiconductorTIADIand so on.Anyway, folks can create their own list and research the origins, and draw their own conclusionsBest

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2025, 08:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 01, 2024, 11:13:33 pmIf one is looking for a single plausible explanation of American hegemony in technology, I don't think you can do better than this one.While arguably the entire 20th century was something of an American century", WWII signed, sealed and delivered top-dog status in the field of technology to the Supreme Victor.Sure, there may have been other drivers of this phenomenon, but they were all secondary to this one.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2025, 09:06:35 pm
content: Besides having its territory and infrastructure essentially unscathed by the war, the US financial situation at the end of WW II was in much better condition than both the winning allies and the losing enemies.With the resumption in trade and production, and the rebuilding of infrastructure, the other parties after the war eventually recovered, and in many cases with more modern infrastructure due to the destruction of the old during the war.Of course, all parties suffered serious loss of life. History, as taught in schools, almost never mentions the financial details of WW I and WW II.