Resolving transit damaged TE - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: MoreTEAplease
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 07:48:21 pm
content: Hello world… my name is Jim and I am a TE Addict…Long time lurker, first time etc. I’d love for my first post to be delivering some sage advice but alas not…Issue:HP 5372a Freq & time interval analyser - significantly damaged in transit US to UK. Pictures had shown it to be in good condition; sold as ‘parts not working’ but shown as passing built in tests (Seller quite fairly saying could guarantee nothing as unfamiliar)Current situation:Have sent seller pictures of unpacking and description of main damage seen so far. No internal inspection yet. No response yet from seller but 100% positive of c200 sales; no reason to suspect they’ll be a problem.Short request:For learned members’ advice on what is a reasonable and fair resolution to request from seller.Background:TEA weakness led to eBay purchase pre-Christmas. Sent via Global Shipping Program so was £££ postage but evidently I was keen. Tracking number provided showed no movement for several weeks - a 'feature' of GSP I thought initially. Seller responded quickly to message and suddenly it started its journey - hurrah! Bit of a pain but whoever it was we’re all human and it’s a very first world problem.Received yesterday. On shifting into house found two instrument rear feet sticking through well established holes in single skin cardboard box. Opposing face (thus front of instrument) better shape but two smaller holes. Became apparent due CoG shift that instrument was free to roam within box on one axis.Got the phone out and took a load of pre-unwrap pictures. Then took video of unboxing (if I work out the posting of pics I’ll upload)Opening up found:- top panel protected by single sheet of soft foam, 2 in thick one end, 1.2 in other end. Compressed under moderate thumb pressure on callipers to barely 1/4 inch- Instrument wrapped in two layers of large-bubble wrap done around sides, top and base- Two layers bubble wrap orthogonal to first around front and rear of instrument.- No further packing beneath instrument- Sides packed out from box by good thickness of brown paper- Nothing more than two layers of bubble wrap over front and rear panels with no attempt to better protect front panel corners , edges, connectors or screen- No padding to prevent instrument from sliding within box on fore-aft axisOlder / longer players of the game will have anticipated:• Front panel severe damage left hand edge around screen as it has been shifted down and left, such that it is now recessed beneath chassis top and partly to left of chassis right hand edge - overall entire front panel is warped (I’m touching nothing at this stage)• Ext Arm BNC minor dink; Channel A BNC ok; Channel B BNC major impact damage from 4 o’clock• Channel C’s type N is ok superficially but hole in box says it’s definately taken hits so damage behind unknown. Further hole in box correlates with upper right corner of front panel where most pushed in• Screen was unprotected standfast two layers of bubble wrap. Somehow front glass externally intact, whether what is behind has survived is anyone’s guessMiraculously, rear panel intact,bar upper rear right foot came adrift during unpacking and upper left foot is AWOL, I think by traumatic amputation but as with one of the bottom feet, this might have been missing to start with.Rest of top / bottom / sides appear superficially ok; handles intact. There is something small running around inside, maybe a fuse, maybe something more problematic.Summary:Significant damage. I can and have lived with broken feet and even the odd mangled BNC or minor crack to plastic (even if one maybe should not). I’ve only ever PM’d sellers to encourage better packing next time in these cases because life is short and worse things happen at sea.Here however I have received pretty battered something which was advertised in good condition, albeit fairly ‘parts not working’ (description outlined it did fire up and pass built in tests)What I have may be repairable but even if I don’t find obvious damage upon opening up, I worry there could be all manner of shock damage, (some life shortening?) which goes well beyond connector reseating etc. It’s already going to need several hours work. Wasn’t looking to sell on but some reasonable resale value is normal should the need arise – also part of the TEA balance I feel! – yet this is barely scrap in present form and questionable even when ‘fixed.’Question: - What would you suggest in your opinion / experience (perhaps as a seller too) that resolution ought to be please, and why?Constraints / considerations:• Please be fair to both parties (as I’m sure you would be – not precluding ‘full refund’ if that is where I ought to head, just want to avoid any knee-jerk pile-ons that stories of woe can invoke, be it in the pub or on the internet)• I’ve necessarily paid VAT / Import duty on total cost (item + significant postage) – is there a mechanism to recover any of this, or is it a cost of playing the Import game? If irrecoverable / nails to recover then I need to factor this in.• Unless persuaded otherwise, postage back across the pond is going to be excessive – though I guess this is sellers call.• An agreed resolution pause pending a repair attempt is not realistic – I have no reliable capacity for this for many months at best (and given past history, several years..).• Bonus: I don’t need its capabilities immediately (did I say I am an addict?)Thank you for reading so much guff… any thoughts gratefully received - Jim

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 07:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: MoreTEAplease on January 17, 2023, 07:48:21 pmI don't know if they've changed anything but: Last year I bought a laptop for £400 that came with the wrong charger. Seller agreed to refund me £25 so I could buy a new one and eBay refunded me the £25 plus all the import taxes (which were about £100).Win!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 08:02:07 pm
content: Who did the actual packaging?

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 08:03:27 pm
content: 1. Please consider in future posts being more concise. For such a simple issue this is a long post that is challenging to read.2. You're allowed to attach pictures here and as they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words" :-)It's hard to really tell from your description much about the sellers packaging but it doesn't sound terrible to me.Bottom line, eBay guarantees you'll get the item in the condition shown in the listing. It's not your job to worry about being fair to the seller. They can stand up for themselves.Also I doubt the seller will have to cover it. eBay's seller page for GSP (https://www.ebay.com/sellercenter/shipping/ebay-labels-services/ebay-international-shipping-services/ebay-global-shipping-program) states"Although you’re responsible for getting the package safely to the Global Shipping Center, in general you won’t be responsible if the item is damaged or lost during international shipping"Whenever I've raised questions like this on eBay community I've found there are two very different schools of thought. One is to message the seller and give them the courtesy of fixing. The other (majority) advocates just opening a dispute.I believe customs fees are included in the total the buyer pays eBay for GSP transactions. I believe they are returned on any refund. I had a really bizarre GSP sale to the UK (where the item was "lost", buyer was refunded in fullincluding customs feesbut then the item got relisted on eBay by a UK seller who claimed he'd bought it from an auction I guess run by whomever runs the GSP). I stopped offering GSP after that.EDIT:My suggestion - especially since it is a GSP transaction - is to open a formal dispute and let eBay not the seller handle it. Click on "return this item" and select "arrived damaged". Attach the pictures. I suspect you'll get a full refund.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 09:15:48 pm
content: Quote from: MoreTEAplease on January 17, 2023, 07:48:21 pmThat doesn't sound too bad to me...

author: MoreTEAplease
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 09:29:55 pm
content: Thank you all for rapid and helpful gen...dorkshoei- Yes, it is a bit 'war & peace'Aiming to be shorter; thanks for persevering! Agreed re pictures, I'm just having a Win7 / iphone HEIC format faff - couldn't find an obvious route to upload direct from phone?Fair point about fairness and seller. I also hadn't realised GSP covers such things - thanks for digging out that quote (maybe explains the cost too) and the encouragement to go formal; I'll likely go that way tomorrow.Re your GSP experience I did read something while 'researching' this where someone mentioned buying some bit of machinery from such an auction (not GSP... some logs / parcel company I think) that required specialist movers it was that large - how that got 'lost' is anyone's guess. To be fair (there I go again...!) I expect all companies do similar things - not that I like it, especially for the more unique / irreplaceable things.bdunham7: Packaging done by seller or one of their people by the look of it. No 'Fragile' stickers, not that conveyor belts or all humans will take heed.Fungus:Sounds like a decent outcome!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 09:37:41 pm
content: There is always a risk when buying equipment from non-professional sellers. It is surprising how many people don't know how to pack stuff properly. I always tell people that an item should be packed well enough to survive rolling of the stairs between 2 floors. That is how bad packages are handled. Test equipment in a 19" casing needs at least 10 layers of bubble-wrap.Anyway, I'd return the item for a full refund. Should teach the seller a lesson.

author: MoreTEAplease
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 09:46:40 pm
content: Fungus:Yes, in general ok though I thought two layers of bubble wrap alone on the base with only a thin cardboard box beyond was asking for it - that said, it survived on that face unscathedI'm not convinced by two layers only over the front and rear panel - that might be what many packages use but to me thats asking for trouble, especially when there was ~2 inches free space for a 50-60 Ib instrument to accelerate into whatever is beyond that thin cardboard wall. Considering even the most careful handler would be unaware of this arrangement, I'm not sure they can be expected to prevent such a thing sliding within the box and thus hitting the floor?

author: MoreTEAplease
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 10:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2023, 09:37:41 pmYes, it is for sure. A common as muck PSU for example I'd be less upset; having waited quite some time for something less common I guess I'm now reluctant to lose whatwasa decent bit of kit. I have on occasion pleaded for decent packing - but not considered giving such a 'scary' description... though all too easy to imagine. I think I may develop my own standard request to ping to sellers

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 10:32:24 pm
content: Quote from: MoreTEAplease on January 17, 2023, 09:29:55 pmGSP isn't run by eBay, rather by Pitney Bowes.https://www.ecommercebytes.com/2018/05/01/ebay-global-shipping-program-keeps-pitney-bowes-on-board/As I said, the seller is responsible for shipping to Pitney Bowes US location (Kentucky IIRC) and it's inspected there which is where the sellers damage risk ends. Back when I used the service, the feedback from buyers was that the items were forwarded as received (in terms of packaging) but I don't believe that's guaranteed, Pitney Bowes can repackage, consolidate or whatever to suit their needs.This is why for GSP it's best to leave it to eBay (dispute) rather than informally contacting the seller. Most sellers know very little about GSP and may presume they're on the hook for return shipping etc which may impact how they respond.QuoteMy experience is that sellers either know how to pack or they don't and being told by the buyer how to do it just goes in one ear and out the other.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 11:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 17, 2023, 08:02:07 pmIt doesn't matter. The seller is responsible for insuring that the item is adequately packaged. "adequately" being somewhat of a relative term since I've seen UPS drive a fork lift prong through packages.The amount of packing described by the OP is totally insufficient IMO, even for shipping within the US. For overseas shipping the seller should have put in a LOT more packing. Just for shipping within the US, UPS requires that items be double boxed (box within a box) AND at least 2 inches of packing between the boxes and all of the way around the item.OP you need to contact the seller immediately and try to resolve the situation. If he delays more than a day or two or if you can't resolve it, then immediately file a complaint with E-bay/PayPal. Do Not Delay!!! Many sellers are notorious for delaying any resolution until it's too late for the buyer to file a complaint.Pictures are your friend! If the item is Not As Described or didn't arrive in the same condition that it was shown to be in in the ad listing then you're due a full or partial refund, regardless of weather the ad said "as is" or "no returns" or "parts only".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 12:00:16 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on January 17, 2023, 10:32:24 pmYep. Some people just don't grok packaging. No amount of hinting will change that, their brains just aren't interested.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 12:30:33 am
content: You can contact the seller as a courtesy, but they are unlikely to be able or willing to handle this on their own. Back in the days when sellers were terrified of bad feedback, I would get an occasional seller that would provide an immediate refund at the first communication of a problem and then not even want the item returned. After a few years of crooked sellers learning to abuse the system, you don't see that very much anymore.So the answer is that you need to register a case and be ready to part with the item.

author: MoreTEAplease
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 12:40:08 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on January 17, 2023, 11:59:15 pmAck all - inc detail on packaging - good to know, thank you. Further reading suggests GSP sees some things re-packed to save space, typically very badly. It may be the Seller is thus innocent in any case. Thankfully I have plenty of before & after opening photos.From earlier encouragement have submitted a 'return' for damaged on arrival (or whatever the wording was). Seller has also just messaged to offer partial refund - I have suggested, again thanks to everyone's help, he follow the GSP refund route which I outlined: Fingers crossed...

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 04:11:41 am
content: eBay global shipping guarantees safe delivery.A couple of years ago I bought a $5000 trombone from Hawaii and it arrived with some damage. I put in a claim to the Global Shipping Program and they refunded every penny including shipping. I would have been happy with a repair, but they checked the serial number with the manufacturer and were told that the model was obsolete and some parts were no longer available. There is more to the story, but that was the important thing WRT their decision.It's worth the try as your item is also listed as obsolete and likely Keysight would be unwilling to repair it.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 04:49:37 pm
content: Quote from: MoreTEAplease on January 18, 2023, 12:40:08 amGood. It sounds like you're on your way to an acceptable resolution. I'm glad to hear that you did take pictures of the as-received item! Those will help tremendously if you have to resort to filing a claim with Ebay or if you or the seller has to file an insurance claim. FYI; in the US, the seller NOT the buyer, is usually the one that has to file a claim with the shipper. The seller should refund to you and then file a claim with the shipper. That's just part of the headache of selling on E-bay and with selling overseas.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 04:57:54 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on January 18, 2023, 04:49:37 pmAnd absolutely none of the above applies to the GSP.

author: BMK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 05:09:30 pm
content: 100% push eBay GSP. If the seller knows what he's doing, he won't offer refund until that avenue is explored. Like others have said, It's probably between eBay and Pitney Bowes.Had an issue couple of years ago with ~£2k industrial label printer, Front panel housing busted off. Box was well packed, but looked like it was kicked the whole way across the Atlantic. I complained and in 24hours 100% refund for me, seller kept his money and I kept the printer and patched it up.I would have been happy with them paying for repairs, still feel like a cheated someone. I guess for the more obscure items they just can't be bothered dealing with repairs etc.