Biden invokes Defense Production Act for printed circuit board production - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 11:10:35 am
content: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-invokes-defense-production-act-printed-circuit-board-production-2023-03-27/QuoteQuote

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 04:05:53 pm
content: When the government offers to come and help... RUN!I'm trying to figure out how the RESTRICT Act will affect those of us ordering PCB's from China. Technically, this could run afoul of the act, as written.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 04:31:30 pm
content: We certainly don't want defense related PCBs manufactured in China. They have already stolen the chips, now all they need is the wiring. In fact, we shouldn't have ANY military products constructed offshore. Same for code...Doesn't seem like much funding. Last I heard there was a joint $50B wafer fab under consideration, $50M for PCBs is chump change.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 04:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 29, 2023, 04:31:30 pmI fully agree... Still...

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 05:46:37 pm
content: I find these knee jerk reactions are the dying embers of the North American electronics industry. It's been aggressively taken by Asia - chips, components, engineering, pc boards etc. with subsidies, grants etc. by their governments.china is dumping PC board fab, much to our delight. For many years now causing mass extinction of PCB houses.A North American fab I used closed down saying they couldn't even buy the raw materials for the costs of a finished product offered by competitors overseas. But, that they charged ridiculous $300+ setup fees and minimum panel runs, common to NA fabs, good riddance to that old cash cow. We were getting ripped off and the industry didn't want to lower costs, so I think they brought their demise upon themselves to an extent.Where is that laminate and prepreg made exactly? What's the point of having the boards made in America with Eastern materials?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 05:49:26 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 29, 2023, 04:05:53 pmThe article states that this gives the Defense Department priority for PCB fab in the US and Canada.The US government is helping itself for armament purposes--do you have a problem with that?

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 08:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 29, 2023, 05:49:26 pmYes, I do. All the military funding and all of the national laboratories and we're making boards overseas? Of course, move it home!Regardless, when "national defence" or "national security" is uttered by government officials, things can get really weird and really difficult fast.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 09:27:23 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 29, 2023, 05:49:26 pmWhile I agree with the more general statement MarkS made ("When the government offers to come and help... RUN!"), it looks reasonable in this case.Actually anything related to national defense should be made locally unless there is a major reason why it can't be done. IMO.What would be problematic would be to make using PCB production from China completely illegal, or even just very difficult and costly, for all US companies.But if it just applies to defense stuff, that sounds reasonable.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 09:33:14 pm
content: In Canada, we use to have AP Circuits for somewhat affordable quick turn 2 layer boards, they could not compete with the dumping, long gone.Having access to low cost, quick turn boards spurs development.I would love to send my PCB money to someone local, I hope it happens, they need to loose their old ways of small run setup fees and two week delivery unless you pay a premium.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 09:38:49 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 29, 2023, 05:46:37 pmWe still use local manufacturing for low quantity high density PCBs, as they can turn a PCB around very quickly and the quality is excellent. We can get fully assembled BGA PCBs with blind and buried vias in our hands within a week if we're prepared to pay the price.But like a lot of things for volume it doesn't make sense to do it locally, because it's too expensive.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2023, 09:58:23 pm
content: For a period of 12 years, perhaps longer, I designed and built dozens of small projects and prototypes utilizing PCBexpress boards.Then someone in this forum suggested EasyEda, and I haven't looked back since.It is not only the outrageous price difference, but the larger amount of board ordering options. And EasyEda's CAD software is significantly better. With a gigantic parts library.But for a MILITARY application? Definitely should be built in-country. Electronics is as important for a country’s defense establishment as steel was during the Victorian era.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 01:58:56 am
content: Oh yeah when national security is a concern, only then the government cares about an industry lol.Politicians fail to realize these supply chains are very complex and losing manufacturing (ref. Detroit) it's like the rainforest, chop it down and it's never growing back.They do nothing to protect the industry as far as dumping, but now US and Canada offer a token $0.05B ?Canadian government $billions tosubsidize GMetc. towards having us assemble cars. The parts are from Asia and Mexico and assembling them really counts for FA, it's just union labour tightening screws. Gotta keep the votes.Who manufacturers the PC board laminate, solder mask, pre-preg etc. ? Hint: pretty much nobody in North America.Rogersis entirely Asia,Taiyo Americaimports a lot from Shanghai. Hmmm.So even if a NA PCB fab pops up to make some boards for missiles and radar equipment etc. the (pcb) ingredients are from unfriendly countries like it or not.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 08:19:01 pm
content: That's what you get when you favor ideology over pragmatism.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2023, 09:08:30 pm
content: no one replied to my post about advanced circuits getting bought. I guess no one really gets domestic boards anymore?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/apct-acquires-advanced-circuitsI wonder which state they will pick to put all the "dirty" manufacturing like this? I heard CA is banning chrome plating too.https://jalopnik.com/california-wants-to-ban-chrome-plating-1850035824

author: Fgrir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 30, 2023, 01:58:56 amTrue, but you don't have to send the gerbers for your latest missile or radar design to China to buy laminates.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2023, 09:33:14 pmOnshore PCB fabs are parasitizing off defence contracts (and other cases when PCBs are lerally or otherwise mandated to be made domestically) when customers don't have a choice and will pay any price because at the end of the day they are using taxpayer's money, not their own. Which is why those fabs have zero insentive to innovate aiming at reducing their costs.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 02:45:50 pm
content: Quote from: Fgrir on March 31, 2023, 02:30:20 pmIf suppliers restrict your ability to procure those laminates, those latest missile or radar designs will only exist on paper.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 08:04:57 pm
content: Globalism has no nationalism. Profit and lowest price are the priority.... until... it's needed for military defense.Unfortunately I see the industries going extinct can take years to build, or are never coming back. Those days are long gone of building technology 100% America.It's the same situation with semiconductors - the chemicals, epoxy, machines etc. made overseas. So all these new fangled fabs in Texas, just ordering stuff from elsewhere and as dependent as always, despite the (late) $$billions on subsidies and hoopla to keep votes.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 08:25:19 pm
content: For years even in the UK we banned the use of chemicals used for the manufacturing of products. So they moved elsewhere where the rules aren't followed as much. Now the UK is crying becuase they don't have the businesses to make the stuff anymore.I do enjoy they way the fat cats made money as they sold off the business abroad, now they get to make more as they setup businesses to do the work they used to do.One trick used to be buy lots of new kit with grants from the government. Never unpack it, send it over to other places and setup there with the money offered. Close the UK site down.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2023, 08:35:01 pm
content: There used to be a PCB fab less than 2 miles from my house, it outsourced all that work to China around 15 years ago though, the business is a shell of its former self, the building is mostly empty with just a couple of guys working in the front office.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 08:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 31, 2023, 08:35:01 pmThat's another problem - all the money is made in sales/distribution, not in manufacturing. The latter tend to operate on extremely low margins. Those couple of guys likely add more to the cost to PCB than what PCB were actually manufactured for in the first place.Even looking at my own experience, I make the most money in custom R&D, production typically has a low margin. The only time I make some decent money on production is that when production run is so small and devices used are so expensive, that I can charge extra for manual assembly and actually get away with it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:15:05 pm
content: This raises an interesting general question though.Does the US really use chinese fabs for their defense gear? What exactly does "defense" encompass though, it's a pretty wide term?In most european countries, anything military/aerospace/safety or security-critical stuff usually uses "high-quality" fabs, either on their own ground or with what is considered the industry-standard of quality in Europe, which is basically Germany or Switzerland. While not that many, we DO have a number of very high-profile PCB manufacturers in Europe. And they sure have business.There are certainly a few in the US as well.Of course, that's expensive. But cost is not really supposed to be a parameter for these applications in general.So I'd be surprised that this would even be a question in the US. I'm curious.I personally wouldn't even have the idea of having any military equipment made even just partially in China.I'm not talking about your consumer mobile phone or a gadget. Military equipement.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 09:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 02, 2023, 09:15:05 pmI think you are confusing high quality with expensive. My military designs were always produced in expensive PCB fabs, but the quality was highly variable. A number of times I have had iffy quality samples made in Europe, and people say "Ah, don't worry. The production boards will be made in Asia".

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 10:03:35 pm
content: I think it's the GHz RF radar designs, striplines that are the IP to keep in house. It might not be about PC boards so much as calling for more "advanced packaging".That is some kind of multidevice mounted on a single... die? or maybe it's COB. The PCB Act wasamended2023-03-31 and really has no details.Over threshold of $50M requires Congress to sign off so this explains the token amount. There is also some strange use of the Act:May 18, 2022 "Biden invokes the Defense Production Act for the baby formula shortage"June 6, 2022 "Biden will authorize the use of the Defense Production Act to accelerate manufacturing of solar panels in the United States"They are no substitute for a national strategy with oversight. Without Taiwan there will be no US military electronics, the ability to make all the components at home is long lost I would say.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 10:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 02, 2023, 09:35:09 pmNo, you are. A small logic problem as it seems.High-quality fabs do exist, they consistently deliver great quality and I can name a few (although I'm not endorsed so I don't see the point of free advertisement) with which I had absolutely zero issue. And they are definitely expensive.That doesn't mean that all expensive fabs deliver high quality (ah, logic.). Sorry to hear about your bad experience but certainly the fabs you mention do not qualify for some reason. Don't hesitate to mention names (that wouldn't be free advertisement), that certainly could help a few avoid the shaky ones. Also, do not necessarily assume that all issues were coming from the manufacturer. Sometimes even the greatest fabs can't deliver reliable results with bad designs. (But in that case, the good ones will definitely warn you.)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2023, 10:59:07 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 02, 2023, 10:29:40 pmYou completely missed my point. These are the places where military customers go for their PCBs. I won't mention names. Its some years since I did any military work. My specific experiences would no longer be relevant.