Refusing delivery from AliExpress? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:09:07 am
content: Has anyone here (I’m in USA) refused a delivery from AliExpress? I use the term “refused” because that’s the proper terminology the Postal Service uses. Apparently any addressee can refuse delivery and the package will be returned to the sender.I don’t have to pay for this service, it’s a right of all domestic addressees as long as the package is not opened.I’ve changed my mind about a power supply I ordered. The product description says returns are accepted providing return shipping is paid by the buyer.I haven’t contacted the seller yet, I thought I’d get a little history from the EEV group first.Does refusing delivery result in a no-cost (for either of us) return trip back to the seller? If so, this saves me a lot and meets the seller’s requirements.Looking for the benefit of anyone who’s been here before.Thanks.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:37:50 am
content: You can refuse and it will be sent back to the sender (may be, it is not clear what USPS does with the packages like that), but you won't get a refund. You still need a valid reason to request a refund, and "I changed my mind" is not one of them.The reason they accept returns as long as you pay shipping is that they know that you won't do it, since shipping anything from the US to China is prohibitively expensive.

author: uski
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:38:18 am
content: The major possibility of problem here comes from the return address on the package.If the return address is not correct, and if the package gets lost, and if you did not coordinate with the seller, then it might be your faultReturns possible does not mean you can return at the wrong address or without discussing firstBeside that, yeah it should work.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:42:17 am
content: Quote from: iXod on October 20, 2020, 04:09:07 amBottom line is, you are aware that this, oneway or another, will cost you something, right ?

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:52:08 am
content: QuoteWhat makes you say that? I will have to contact the seller, but if they are agreeable why should it cost anything?Or are you just having a laugh?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:53:51 am
content: Quote from: iXod on October 20, 2020, 04:52:08 amSure, but why would they agree? They will lose at least what they paid for the shipping. Plus they risk that it will be lost on a way back. There is no reason for them to agree to that.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:55:20 am
content: Quote from: iXod on October 20, 2020, 04:52:08 amNot laughing at all, its just this made me wonder, who will bear the s/h cost back ?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 04:58:33 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 20, 2020, 04:55:20 amIf you refuse the delivery, it in theory will be shipped back to the sender. Postal service will cover the cost of that, it is already factored in as a part of the original shipping fee.But that is a theory. It works for domestic shipments, for sure, but I'm not sure it works for international shipments at all. Especially if the thing was shipped with no real tracking number through strange shipping companies to optimize the cost.

author: uski
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 05:01:21 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 20, 2020, 04:58:33 amYes this is exactly my point above. Many shipping companies consolidate the packages and the return address you see on the package WILL NOT return the product to the seller.If that is the case and if the package is refused, the package can get lost and yes it will obviously be the fault of the buyer. No refund and no product !

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 05:02:43 am
content: QuoteHence the reason for my post. Hoping to find someone who has done this exact thing...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 05:06:12 am
content: It is also not clear how exactly you will refuse it. The only way to do it is to have signature requested. And I don't think anyone has ever requested a signature shipping from China.Otherwise USPS will just drop off the package at your doorstep and be done with it.There won't be anyone who has done this, since the whole scheme makes no logical sense. There is zero reasons for the sender to agree to this, even if you'll find a way to refuse the package.

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 05:14:03 am
content: Enough philosophy. I can do that.If you haven't returned an Aliexpress shipment (via "Refuse shipment"), please don't contribute any more speculation. It doesn't help.Thanks.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 05:28:32 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 20, 2020, 04:58:33 amEven it works for international shipment, the matter of shipping it back just because of the buyer changed his mind, only applicable when the seller already factored into the purchase price such as big online shops in US.Pretty confident the typical Aliexpress sellers that probably making just cents in the deal, capable to absorb that.

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 05:34:12 am
content: I don't need any help speculating.If you haven't returned an Aliexpress shipment (via "Refuse shipment"), please don't contribute any more speculation. It doesn't help.Thanks.

author: tmbinc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 06:04:50 am
content: I have not yet returned an Aliexpress shipment (via "Refuse shipment"), but I will still contribute.The issue is that international returns are not free. In Germany, for example, you have the choice to select what happens if an outgoing intl. shipment is being rejected at the recipient:1. It will be destroyed/auctioned (free)2. You agree to pay fees. (blanket)(2) can get very expensive, usually 30EUR+ even for small shipments.Bottom line - "Refuse Shipment" will not result in a free return for international shipments. It does, as you say, typically work well for national shipments.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 06:33:59 am
content: You might find a USPS information line, call them, and ask them your question. They should have the actual skinny on what happens to your particular scenario on the US side.Remember that Aliexpress already has your money as an escrow agent, and they are the final arbitrator as to whether you get a refund if you and the seller don't reach an agreement. They are fair in resolving disputes, in my experience, once you get a real person involved. The initial rulings are clearly automated and designed to make sure you and the seller have jumped through the required hoops first. I do not think they will be impressed with your plan as a valid excuse for a refund, unless the seller agrees. Also, don't be surprised if the return shipping cost exceeds the cost of the item if it actually is returned or equals the cost of the item if it's destroyed in lieu of return shipping approval -- in which case you also don't get a refund.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:13:02 am
content: I have had a packet returned to a Chinese shop, not due to refusing it, but because I never got the custom invoice.When I contacted the shop to ask about the packet they told me it was returned and they would refund some of my money (They deduct shipping and a bit more). The refund was not to my account, but simple to my account in the shop and would be deducted from my next purchase.The key items:1) I had to contact the shop to get a refund2) I did not get all the money back3) The money was not really returned, but could be subtracted from the next purchase.Other vendors may, of course, do it different.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:17:16 am
content: I don't know why you think that if it's returned nobody has lost money on the deal?Do you think that the postal carriers say "oh well, the recipient didn't want it, so we brought it all the way back to China at no cost, and here is all your money back you paid for the shipping too".When I ship stuff out internationally the form requires a tick to indicate if the package should be destroyed or returned at my cost if it can not be delivered.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:21:19 am
content: The discussion is all about exploiting this kind of loophole, lets see how the OP ended up.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:47:46 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 20, 2020, 07:21:19 amIt is not a loophole, it is mandated by law in the EU. As a buyer, you have30 days2 weeks, to change your mind for an online purchase, and to send back, or refuse the delivery of something. And there cannot be "restocking fee" or "we wil lstill make money on your purchase fee". It would be nice, if other countries would follow, and you all wouldn't slander OP.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:49:36 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 20, 2020, 07:47:46 amWho pays the shipping on that? The buyer? The seller?Because in this case you also have the right to pay the shipping and return the item.OP tries to get out of paying the return shipping.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:51:18 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 20, 2020, 07:47:46 amI guess you're not realizing that most EU merchandises have "higher" price tag from the mark up to accomodate that ?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:56:35 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 20, 2020, 07:49:36 amQuote

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:56:52 am
content: OP, RTFM:https://sale.aliexpress.com/__pc/v8Yr8f629D.htm?spm=a2g0o.ams_81407.1000001.2.7e63TXhETXhEiDPersonally IMO you have entered a contract and to break it is not without cost, may it be monetary or some bad feedback.YMMV

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 07:58:05 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 20, 2020, 07:56:35 amThis is for the original shipping to you. Who pays for the return shipping?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 08:06:38 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 20, 2020, 07:56:52 amThis is a wonderful read, I wonder if it works like this in practice.I recently had somewhat expensive order not delivered, so I decided to use the AliExpress buyer's protection program and requested a refund. This was justified, since the tracking number they provided never left the country of origin, so local post was not to blame.Well, it did not work out exactly as expected. I've got a refund for about half the order. The system for some reason asks you to enter the amount you want to refund (all of it, always), and does not let you enter the number higher than some random number. Without doing that you are not even getting the request in, and once you do that number you are essentially committed to it.I tried to ask where did this number come from, and they quickly went into the language barrier mode.I just agreed to get whatever I could and moved on with my life. But I can't say I was entirely satisfied with the process.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 10:04:23 am
content: Quote from: iXod on October 20, 2020, 04:09:07 amThat doesn't mean the post office has to send a heavy package all the way back to China for free.The key word is: "domestic". For domestic mail the cost of the returns is built into the price of the postage stamps.International? Not a chance. Most likely they'll dump/destroy it.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 10:59:46 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 20, 2020, 07:47:46 amYeah, I'm sure that the random Aliexpress seller in Shanghai is real worried about about any supposed EU law. Their concern about right-to-return is probably right up there with their concern about CE compliance.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 11:08:41 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 20, 2020, 08:06:38 amAliexpress is pretty good, far better than poxy Epay where a seller can cancel your purchase if they feel like they might have sold it for more. Some Ahole seller did that to me a little while back on a P6021 current probe that I'd sniped for a what I thought was a fair price but instead the hungry Ahole pulled the plug and wouldn't go through with the sale. Prick !Had stuff not turn up from Aliexpress but the resent item was received and I particularly like the concept of how Escrow holds your funds until you confirm receipt of goods.IMHO the Aliexpress platform is too good to abuse.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 01:31:58 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 20, 2020, 07:58:05 amI'm not sure. By the looks of it, you have to pay for the shipping back yourself.Quote from: sleemanj on October 20, 2020, 10:59:46 amI'm sure they dont care. As 95% of the people of the world doesnt seem to care, that we are actively making living on this planet more and more miserable for everyone.

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 01:53:08 pm
content: Reply from seller: “Return item to AliExpress US warehouse and initiate a dispute. Your money will be returned to you.”A lot of questions in that statement, but also several answers.

author: evac
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2020, 10:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 20, 2020, 11:08:41 amI've had the opposite experience and recently mostly switched to eBay for all my "far-east" purchases.Bought an item worth ~€70, which was shipped by some generic Chinese shipping service that included tracking.At some point, the tracking showed the item as delivered, although no package ever arrived. Checked with neighbors, was not left anywhere near the entrance, I receive countless packages at this address and never had an issue.The tracking number is only valid on the company's tracking page, and is not recognized by the local post so I had no way to investigate what happened on my own.Opened a dispute, seller stated that he would check with the shipping company but did not reply after several days (was expecting that), Aliexpress stepped in and after review sided with seller without even waiting or pushing the seller to provide additional information.On one hand it's sort of expected that with the amount of orders they process they don't care too much about such types of complaints, but this wasn't exactly a cheap throw-away item so I was hoping for a bit more effort put into the review process.eBay certainly has issues and for some items I can't find any other source than Aliexpress, but this experience left me quite scared of ordering anything of real value from there.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2020, 12:31:26 am
content: Quote from: iXod on October 20, 2020, 01:53:08 pmAs you can see, the seller and Aliexpress do everything possible for you. But usually when returning a parcel in a transaction with other countries where there is no Aliexpress warehouse, the money is returned only after the parcel is received back to the seller and the amount of non-return is deducted from the amount of delivery in both directions. I do not know the laws of the United States, I think they are similar to the laws of Russia, and we can return the product within 14 days without any reason, but at the expense of the buyer and if it was not unpacked. For the return of unpacked goods, the reason specified in the law is required.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2020, 12:43:51 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 20, 2020, 08:06:38 amIf you do not receive the parcel, Aliexpress returns the money in full, but you should pay attention to the seller's obligations icon on the product page. Not all sellers agree to guarantee a full refund. By paying for the order, you automatically agree to the seller's terms and conditions. I have never been refused a full refund if the product is not delivered. But I very rarely buy something expensive on Aliexpress. You need to understand that the seller on Aliexpress can work as a builder or janitor, for example, and in the evening process orders, go buy them 2-3 times cheaper in the Chinese market and send them to you.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2020, 12:49:23 am
content: Quote from: iXod on October 20, 2020, 04:09:07 amI'd suggest you review Aliexpress rules on refusal and buyer protection. I know that on eBay, refusing a package is the very worst thing a buyer can do. No product and no refund is a common result. Whether or not the return trip costs someone money isn't the question, it is whether Aliexpress is going to refund your money. Or, if you are going to try to get a chargeback from your CC, whether being banned from Aliexpress is worth it.

author: iXod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2020, 05:49:14 am
content: What say all you nay-sayers just cool it with the doom-and-gloom? Every message from the seller has been guiding me to wait for the package and file a Dispute (and I can’t do this until 10 days have passed from the ship date). He is showing every sign of willingness.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2020, 06:39:00 am
content: Quote from: iXod on October 21, 2020, 05:49:14 amNaturally! You can't return something before you receive it! If for any reason you never receive the package, then this whole plan is moot and you must file a dispute for not received instead.For now you can only wait until it either arrives or the shipping window is about to end. Which is anything from weeks to months, depending on what was promised.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2020, 08:20:55 am
content: we can pick a brain... or the law (of what is possible), this can be a lesson to whoever want a lesson, buying from 1000 miles away is not the same as buying at the shop next door, esp anything that weigh more than say 100g or costs more than $50. more energy and work and tireness will be taking place. do very in depth study about the item, and pray 5x to ask for guidance and firm decision before hitting "buy it now" button, or else be ready for some calculated risk. but then we are free to not pick a brain. btw, any big and better online shops i registered will provide refund/return request reasons in the form of 2 types (1) item not received (2) item DOA or not as described, there is no (3) such as "i changed my mind". most sellers will try to fullfill the buyer's request personally however irrational the reason is even if they have to accept some loss. some buyers wont care some will do, that will depends on to what extend theIdiocracyconcept developed or diminished inside one self. if i will advice to my younger self, or to my other young links... dont do that as a habit! you can make your first mistake, but take a lesson and do better next time, cheers.

author: Demoratics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 10:34:40 am
content: I stopped ordering from there when the delivery took 6 months to complete...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 01:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: Demoratics on June 08, 2021, 10:34:40 amYeah, because AliExpress is a single seller and every person who ever received their AliExpress order safe and sound within a week was lying about that.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 02:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 08, 2021, 01:14:24 pmIt's rare, but that actually that has happened! I once received an order in only 4 days. Most likely that vendor had stock in a FTZ warehouse, which meant there was no ocean to cross.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 03:46:43 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on June 08, 2021, 02:20:15 pmAliexpress has been really fast for the last three or four months.eg. Last Monday I received something that I ordered the Wednesday before. That's 5 days China->Spain.They also have a new system where they combine lots of packets into a single one that arrives faster because the postage costs get combined. eg. Order three things on the same day and they combine it into one upgraded packet.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 07:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 08, 2021, 03:46:43 pmSame here. The last 2 months shipments from Aliexpress have been pretty quick in general. Say 2 weeks on average.

author: gtm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 07:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 08, 2021, 07:07:16 pmI hope so, I've just done a batch of "last minute orders" from Aliexpress before the new VAT rules come into force on 1s July and I'm getting a bit anxious. I'm checking the tracking twice a day and I only placed the order yesterday!.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 07:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: gtm on June 08, 2021, 07:36:38 pmOh, I hadn't seen those...!So from next month every last parcel will have VAT applied?Time to get ordering!It might not be so bad though: There's a provision for the seller to add VAT during the payment process so they won't be able to sting people an extra 25 Euros per package for "handling fees".They also won't be able to charge me 21% then ship it through Ireland and pocket the difference (eBay). I also might be able to get VAT invoices out of companies like Amazon. Win-win!So long as I get a proper invoice then it's no biggie for me.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:04:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 08, 2021, 03:46:43 pmQuite the opposite here in NZ.6-7 weeks is the new norm where once it was 2-3.That our border are still closed to many parts of the world is the reason so the lack of airfreight space for parcel delivery so everything must come by sea and then put in the local postage system by local Aliexpress receivers.

author: gtm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 08, 2021, 07:53:55 pmActually it's not so much the VAT that worries me. It's the big handling fees on 3€-5€ valued items: silicone grease, enammelled wire. Once the new system gets into place it probably won't be so bad. But if you can't wait and need to order don't delay, do it today!

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 08, 2021, 03:46:43 pmMore likely it was shipped out of their Spanish warehouse (they do have one there).I am still waiting for a package ordered in March that is showing that the "package is ready for shipping". I guess something that never got sent but as the delivery window is until end of June, I have to wait with the dispute ...I have had packages arrive in about 2 weeks the fastest, the usual time is about 3-4 weeks. Paradoxically it is worse if the is shipped from their French warehouse. Go figure ...And re Ali and disputes - usually no problem and got things refunded when I (rarely) needed it but then recently I got sent "new and genuine" ICs that still had the original content from their previous application in them and were the wrong type (obviously relabeled). Ali rejected the dispute because apparently a dump showing that the chips are not the right size and contain someone else's data is not a sufficient evidence that the item is not as advertised and counterfeit ...So it can be a crapshoot. I would hesitate to buy more expensive items from there, even more so now when the VAT on import rules in the EU are about to change from July and everything will have to go through customs and have VAT paid (looking forward to that chaos!).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:09:57 pm
content: Quote from: gtm on June 08, 2021, 08:05:28 pmThe VAT is not an issue for most things people order from China, that's pennies. The problem will be the aggravation with the extra paperwork and the filling fees slapped on it by the shippers if you let them handle it for you. E.g. DHL is charging about 20 euro custom filling fee, regardless of whether any customs are actually due. Simply for submitting the paperwork. So something like a box of PCBs from JLCPCB could suddenly get a heck lot more expensive ...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:26:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 08, 2021, 07:53:55 pmProbably not. Aliexpress will ship to the EU from a warehouse inside the EU. I already had several items shipped from a EU warehouse which got rid of dealing with VAT and resulted in faster delivery as well. If collecting tax on Chinese parcels was intended to help 'local' EU webshops then it failed miserably. Aliexpress seems to have adapted quickly and swiftly.

author: gtm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:27:44 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 08, 2021, 08:09:57 pmWell that's the thing, we don't really know how it's going to play out, at least I don't. I've heard it was going to simplify things and that you would pay VAT to the seller, in this case Aliexpress, who would collect it on behalf of governments and slap a "VAT paid" label on the package, so no customs processing and no handling fees. But there's too many unknowns.

author: gtm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 08, 2021, 08:26:10 pmYes, Banggood does the same. But it's usually expensive and medium-valued items, not the 5€ stuff.In the case of the Spanish warehouse they take advantage of a loophole in the spanish system, which allows them to ship it in bulk and declare it as for intended sale outside of the EU, hence without paying any VAT. The goods spend a couple of days in storage in some facilities in whatever port, and after that they're retrieved after paying some storage fees (which is much less than VAT) and moved to Banggood's or Aliexpress own warehouse. That's how we get stuff VAT free from Aliexpress.But even that loophole could eventually get closed.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 08:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: gtm on June 08, 2021, 08:27:44 pmWell, yes - but that assumes that Ali will actually be interested in playing ball because this means a very non-trivial investment on their side in order to track which purchases were for EU customers, they will have to register for VAT within EU (fairly complex matter and imposes a lot of financial constraints and EU law on the company) and will have to periodically pay it. That's an enormous task and it is well possible they will just shrug and not do anything, leaving it up to the recipients to deal with the issue on package per package basis.Quote from: nctnico on June 08, 2021, 08:26:10 pmAliExpress, Banggood and others had EU warehouses for many years - and it had nothing to do with "adapting" to these rules but with faster and cheaper shipping for bulkier but popular items (like 3D printers or tools).Also, only a very small fraction of goods available on AliExpress are available from EU warehouses - the seller has to sell enough of the widgets to qualify for it and I even believe they have to pay Ali for the privilege of having the goods "prepositioned" in EU (or elsewhere - like US) because the warehouses cost money and are not unlimited in size, unlike stuff that is shipped directly from China where it is often the seller themselves taking care of any logistics (stocking, packing and shipping the order), no AliExpress. So it is mostly only the larger and more expensive items sold in large quantities that are found there, nothing else.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2021, 09:17:57 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 08, 2021, 08:05:40 pmNo you don't. Just send the seller a request to cancel it then order from someone else.Quote from: janoc on June 08, 2021, 08:09:57 pmThe new rules specifically allow companies like Aliexpress to collect the VAT at the point of sale then ship things pre-paid. No more hidden fees, no paperwork at the border.https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/oss_en

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 09:10:51 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 08, 2021, 09:17:57 pmOnce the item is showing as "sent" in the AliExpress system you can't cancel (or rather that would be dependent only on the good will of the seller - I did contact them already and they just told me to "wait a bit longer"). And it is showing as "sent", it is the tracking info that is stuck at that message. It could well be some problem with the shipping company or a package forgotten/dropped somewhere in a warehouse, who knows. But as far as AliExpress is concerned, the seller has fulfilled their obligations.Ali's system shows that there is "No updated logistic information" and 17Track shows this:https://t.17track.net/en#nums=LT696220165NLQuote from: Fungus on June 08, 2021, 09:17:57 pmYou have completely missed the point. The issue is not whether the rules allow it but whether the seller (or AliExpress in this instance) will actually bother with it because it is a huge extra expense for them. See what happened when UK has introduced similar rule in January post brexit - a lot of EU companies have rather refused to serve their UK customers because they don't want to have to deal with such onerous obligation (collecting UK VAT and submitting to UK tax rules).My guess is that the large majority of online stores from outside the EU certainly won't bother.Banggood maybe will because they are acting as a single company (the buyer deals only with Banggood) and they have an EU presence already, AFAIK (which you need to collect VAT). AliExpress is just a marketplace like eBay and I can't see how they are going to rope the millions of small sellers there to submit all the tax paperwork, issue proper invoices, etc so that they can collect EU VAT on behalf of the EU buyers (but not others). Maybe they will do it but the chances aren't high.And the likes of JLCPCB, PCBWay and similar - extremely unlikely. Or heck, even Digikey - that's where I have been regularly hit by those 20 bucks filing fees from UPS or DHL (don't remember which one they use now).

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 09:47:08 am
content: They invented the three letters RMA for this exact reason.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 10:06:14 am
content: Quote from: janoc on June 10, 2021, 09:10:51 amI don't think AliExpress can affordNOTto do it - their European business will disappear overnight if we have to pay 25 euros extra on every order.Quote from: janoc on June 10, 2021, 09:10:51 amSimple: Aliexpress processes the payments, not the sellers.They don't have to pass the paperwork along (that would be stupid!)

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 10:14:30 am
content: Around here both eBay and Aliexpress collects the VAT on behalf of the seller.I.e. the sellers doesn't have to do anything. And when they do it for a smallmarket like this, I would be very surprised if they don't do it for most (all?)european countries. The alternative is paying VAT at entry and a handling fee,~18us$ if handled by the postal service.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 10:17:28 am
content: Quote from: janoc on June 10, 2021, 09:10:51 amThey voted to separate themselves, so...(...it's up to them to figure out a way to fix all the problems they just created)

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 11:55:01 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 10, 2021, 10:17:28 amYou are really really trying hard to miss the point I have made, don't you?I don't care about who is to clean up any messes, the point was that when companies are faced with such bureaucratic obstacle and can afford to avoid having to do it, they will. Even if it costs them part of their business.Quote from: Fungus on June 10, 2021, 10:06:14 amWell, the filling fees won't be that high (most people don't use DHL to ship their 5 EUR widgets, or even none if people do the paperwork themselves) but yes, it will be certainly an extra aggravation and if the governments within EU implement the various declaration portals (most seem to be going with online solutions for it) poorly, it will certainly harm their business.Quote from: Fungus on June 10, 2021, 10:17:28 amIt is not about "passing paperwork". But e.g. I have seen the Slovak portal where you will be declaring these packages from the 1st of July and it is asking about things like invoice numbers, seller's addresses, etc. Where can the recipient of the package find those? Normally on a business invoice - and good luck getting that from one of the Shenzen sellers on AliExpress (or AliExpress itself).And re collecting the tax - sure they can do it, but in order to do so they have to be registered within EU for paying the tax - and thus will be also liable for other related things (including e.g. tax audits - there are tons of frauds around VAT, so audits and checks are strict and frequent). And if they are collecting tax they will need to give you also a receipt/invoice otherwise when your package arrives you will have no way to prove to the customs it has been paid.None of that is the case yet.Oh and they will get GDPR too - which they are subject to already but if they are not incorporated in EU they are unlikely to get issues with it. Once they start remitting the tax and will be under some EU jurisdiction, it will be different ... (and Ali collects and tracks one heck of an amount of data, even compared to Facebook ...)Quote from: tunk on June 10, 2021, 10:14:30 amThat's cool, there is hope then. eBay does it within EU too but then they are also incorporated for Europe in Luxembourg, I believe. AliExpress isn't, so I am curious how they are going to handle this.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 12:00:33 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on June 10, 2021, 09:47:08 amDid you miss the "AliExpress" part in the title of the thread? Or have never bought anything from there? Good luck trying to get an RMA from a seller on AliExpress ...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 12:45:18 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on June 10, 2021, 11:55:01 amAnd you seem to be missing the point that these are NEW rules so comparing with old/existing/imaginary procedures is pointless.Quote from: janoc on June 10, 2021, 11:55:01 amAgain, Aliexpress will either have to come up with a way... or go out of business. I'm betting on the former.The people who make these rules aren't 100% stupid. They don't want Aliexpress to stop selling things in Europe, there'll be a way for Aliexpress to do it.Quote from: janoc on June 10, 2021, 11:55:01 amYes, eBay has been "pre-collecting" VAT for for years now but getting a VAT invoice out of them isimpossible.Let's hope that changes with the new rules.(my theory is that eBay charges me 21% Spanish VAT, pays 3% VAT in Ireland (where the goods arrive), then pockets the 18% difference...)

author: LazyJack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 01:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 10, 2021, 12:45:18 pmNo, it does not. As soon as the 21% is collected, they need to pay that to the state, but they can subtract or claim any VAT they payed as a buyer. Hence the name Value Added Tax.It's not like collecting VAT in one country,then paying it in a completely different.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 01:47:24 pm
content: Quote from: LazyJack on June 10, 2021, 01:14:46 pmMy question is: Which state do they pay? Spain or Ireland?Quote from: LazyJack on June 10, 2021, 01:14:46 pmThey didn't pay any VAT as a buyer.Quote from: LazyJack on June 10, 2021, 01:14:46 pmWhy not? If I import goods in Ireland I'm then free to move them around Europe anywhere I want to. It's a common scheme, lots of companies do it.Anything else requires you to explain why it's impossible to get a VAT invoice out of eBay for the things they import on your behalf via eBay global shipping.https://www.google.com/search?q=eBay+global+shipping+vat+invoice

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 02:36:48 pm
content: QuoteHere the seller is supposed to add "VOEC NO:xxxxxxx Code:Paid"to the address label to say that VAT has been paid. This does notalways happen, so I've added it to the "address field 2".More info about this:https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/business-and-organisation/vat-and-duties/vat/foreign/e-commerce-voec/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2021, 02:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: tunk on June 10, 2021, 02:36:48 pmI imagine that any new system will allow a bar code to be added to packages that will allow them to sail through customs.(and hopefully download an invoice from the central European database that will need to be created for all this to work)

author: krisgian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 04:56:49 pm
content: So what are you gonna do after refusing delivery on AliExpress? Going by yourself in China and get your parcel? HAHAHA! Of course, the delivery from AliExpress takes a lot of time, but there is always an option for faster delivery. You will need to pay additional money, but at least you will get your parcel sooner. You can also use the package tracker to know where your parcel is and estimate how much time it will arrive approximately. Also, I don't think that there is an option of refusing delivery in AliExpress.___________________________https://www.packages24.com/carriers/yanwen-tracking

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 10:25:11 pm
content: Quote from: krisgian on June 11, 2021, 04:56:49 pmIf the delivery takes more than two or three days to provide a working tracking number (ie. one that says "accepted by airline", not just "tracking number created") then you're doing it wrong.

author: blurpy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 07:02:44 pm
content: Quote from: tunk on June 10, 2021, 02:36:48 pmHave you heard of that having any effect, adding VOEC to the address yourself?Not sure why the postal service would care about a message in the address, when the paperwork is missing.Last I ordered, I had to pay VAT to Aliexpress, and they shipped the package like they always did before with a fake $10 value on the label and no papers. I've heard others in Norway who also paid VAT to Aliexpress, and got a fine from customs for faking the price, as well as having to pay VAT again and customs fees. So VOEC for me seems risky with Aliexpress.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 10:53:52 pm
content: For me the main point is how the carrier behaves.Long time ago, Correos (spanish postal service) used to send a message to you warning your items were at the customs. Then you asked them for the documentation, they gave it to you, then you were able to do that paperwork and VAT payment online in some 5 minutes.Last year, the item I bought from the US arrived to my city without any warning, then at the post office I was told that, to do the paperwork myself, item would have to be returned to customs first (probably a lie), so I paid their 20 euro fee.This week, at the same postal office, I asked about the situation after July, 1st, the said to me that, should the parcel arrive to the office, I would have to pay the fee anyway. They don't have a clue about sending any warnings when the parcel is at customs, and don't seem to care about, frankly.Things are already much worse with private carriers. Two months ago, TNT/FedEx fucked me bad. After I asked them for the documentation, they splitted my shipment in three, never gave to me any list of goods included in each of these three saparated shipments, declared fake weights so to deduce these list was impossible, declared an unknown country of origin in the third shipment... so to have it all passing through customs has been a more-than-45-days nightmare. Goods were released from customs, 10 kms from my door, past Monday, yet they have to be delivered to me. Very fine people in TNT/FedEx. Really.So, for me, it's going to be "wait and see". I'm quite upset with the carriers right now. So much that I could even pray for them to get a Vlad Tepes treatment.