Brushless motor controller, required certifications to enter the market - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: tusior
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 05, 2018, 09:31:40 am
content: Hi everyone!Me and my friend came up with an idea to design brushless motor controller. We have couple of years of experience with electronics design and software and we realized similar projects so construction will be no problem for us.We already have concept of device: max voltage 45V, max current: 40A, couple types of inputs, usb interface, aluminium enclosure etc. Controller can be used for e-bike, e-longboard, cnc etc. We almost started to design a schematic but a doubts appeared: is it worth to create a product when we are not sure if we can sell it fully legally in global market due to regulations. I started this topic in hope to get answer to following questions:1. Can you help with specifying which certification we need to pass to put this kind of product on the market? (and how much full range of tests can cost).2. Already we knows that in Europe we need to declare CE and for US need to pass FCC, but I found that motor controllers are excluded from some regulations, is it true?3. Our product will be a bit like:- FOCBOX (new vesc)http://www.enertionboards.com/electric-skateboard-parts/FOCBOX-programmable-brushless-motor-controller/or- Odrivehttps://odriverobotics.com/#odriveAnd on those products or on their website I don't see any cert signs, do you think they can sell it legally without it? (or maybe they have those certs but I don't see it).Best Regards!Tusior

author: Amper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 07:46:16 am
content: Well, first of all its very very, very , very difficult to do it properly. If you really want to sell them you need to do so as a component, not as a finished product. The biggest problem is emi compatability. You need to test for that or you will not be allowed to sell them. If you do sell them and some competition decides to sue you you will go bankrupt faster than you can blink. Fulfilling emi is not possible anyways with simple setups similar to rc controllers.I dont want to ruin the fun for you, but i know, why even though i have many things that people buy i dont sell except to friends that i know and trust.

author: tusior
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 09:19:48 am
content: Thanks for response. I suspected that legal regulations will be difficult to pass, unfortunately I don't have enough assets and knowledge to fulfil all emi tests.But what you think about FOCBOX or Odrive projects that I mentioned, are they selling their products legally?I think selling product as an component will be best option, but what you think: if I sell pcb board with programmed uC and some enclosure for it, can I say that it is still a component? (in this case hobbyist are main target for product).

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 02:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: tusior on May 09, 2018, 09:19:48 amODrive will not be legally selling the product.but the reality is that nobody cares. It's not massive volume, and its not going to end users.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 07:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: tusior on May 09, 2018, 09:19:48 amUnless your products are aimed at specific regulated markets (medical devices, automotive, etc.), you usually just have to give self-declarations on compliance.Of course, if you claim to be compliant to CE or FCC and haven't properly tested the compliance, it's your responsibility. But you're not legally forced to test it. You're just forced to take responsibility for the compliance. One way of approaching this when you have limited cash is to test the maximum you can either in-house (when it doesn't need expensive equipment) or in university labs (some universities have labs for EMC testing) that can do that for cheap or even for free if you know someone there. That will give you confidence in the compliance, it's usually called "pre-testing", and may be enough to release you product to market. Then when/if it sells well and gets a lot of traction, you can invest in testing in accredited labs.Now if your products are modules and not end-products per se, you may not even have to deal with any compliance. In this case, the end-user is responsible for what they do with it. Your products would just be considered as modules or spare parts.

author: Amper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 11:04:46 pm
content: The biggest problem is that you will not be able to meet the specs. im not aware of any hobby grade motor inverter that comes even close to whats necessery to filtering electromagnetic radiation sufficiently. You would need a metal enclosure, an input filter and shielded connections to your motor and still its very very difficult. I was an inturn working in a mid sized company doing exactly this and even they had trouble getting their stuff compliant.Looks like the boss just did a video on this topic:

author: tusior
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 11:23:14 am
content: Thanks for all of your responses. I will make some pcb board then I will contact my University to check if they are can use they emc chamber cheaply.I understood that:- to put CE mark on product on device I need to declare that it is EMI complient (and fullfill other requirements that CE re quire).- for FCC tests I need to send my device for tests, and thats is only when I want to use some radio frequencies, or I accidentially emits it, and its obligatory only for US and Canada markets.- certificates like UL is a premium insurance for companies that want to be extra safe for consumer complaints.Do you think that all that 10$ hobby ESC controllers that have CE and FCC marks on its heats shrink tube enclosure are properly tested? I have couple of them I see that they are very simple constructions.Can you recommend me some book that will dispel my doubts about certifications, and legal requirements?

author: Amper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 10:48:21 pm
content: Not a single one of them is tested ; ) Chinese manufacture them and the importers take the risk, as simple as that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 11:22:29 pm
content: Again, I'm not certain that a module which is not usable as a stand-alone product, but is meant to be integrated in a stand-alone product (which you don't provide), requires a CE mark (I don't know FCC as well so that may be different for the FCC). For some types of products, an "accessory" has to be CE marked, but I don't think your modules would be considered accessories; they would rather be seen as "spare parts".Some of the logic behind it is that your controller may pass the EMC requirements of the corresponding directive (EMC directive) when tested in the particular, restricted setup you would test it with, and not pass them once it's integrated in the user's product, which can have a significant influence over EMC, so as a module, it's usually not relevant to test it for EMC (IMO). What would be more relevant IMO (although probably not required either) would be to test it for safety (heating, risks of short-circuits, risks of fire...). This testing would reassure your customers and they could use it in their own CE mark file. This is why you can see UL certifications for some third-party modules or spare parts: this doesn't make them "CE marked" or FCC compliant per se, but it certainly helps the customer that will be able to claim those tests. Safety-related tests are usually much more relevant when done on separate components/modules than EMC tests.You may learn one or two things there:https://emcfastpass.com/ce-mark-guide-electronics/To get a definite answer for your products, you should ask a test lab. They are usually proficient and up-to-date with those legal matters. If you ask nicely enough, they will probably answer you for free based on a quick description of your devices.And as Amper said, don't get fooled by CE marks that you can see on a whole lot of devices, especially when they come from China. They are usually fake.

author: tusior
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 12:22:47 pm
content: Thanks all of you for answers!, it help me a lot not to overcome my possibilities.To be honest, it's sad when I see that many people don't care at all about EMC or ESD tests in products that they import from china, it's hard to be competitive with those products.But finally I need to start work on my project, if I get some new information about certifications I will write it here.Regards

author: Bigkim
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 06:09:54 pm
content: If its an electronic motor for a Scateboard, or a way to propell a Scateboard, Ill bet you dollars to donuts that there ai aleady something like it on the market.As far as your legal requirements...if Johnny trips over his Boy-Bun while using you product, better stand by to be sued into the next century....which is what I would be concerned more about, rather than meeting a bunch of technical requirements.There are MANY reasons why MOST products come outta Asia.....Ok #1 is price, but in that list of reasons, is the fact that its almost impossible to sue an Asian based company.There are only sooo many ways that you can control the speed of a motor, and if you happen to have stepped on anyones Patent doing so...even not knowing you have done it...again...you will be sued beyond belief.Before renting out your EMF Chamber...or sending ANYTHING off for any sort of certification, I would suggest paying a Lawyer for a complete patent search, and while you are at it, have a chat with him regarding liability.

author: tusior
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 07:46:35 pm
content: Bigkim, I don't think that law is so cruel for contructors and manufacturers, that they need to feel theratened from every side. There are already small companies that are seeling e-skateboards and I didn't hear about any court case in this area. People buy many dangerous stuff and need to take danger into consideration when they use it.But e-skateboards are not my target, I rather thought about e-bikes.I know that there are some patents covering motor steering but it is not cutting-edge technology so most of them should be already outdated, but thanks about pointing possible obstacles.