Lasered uVia for Prototypes expensive? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2020, 02:54:33 pm
content: So I wanted to do a quick prototype and realized that using lasered uVias I can get a much more efficient design.Being used to uVias in Series production and this being a simple 4L Board I did not believe this would suppose a much more elevated cost.When going to Würth to order the PCB costs 10x as much nowalso Chinese manufactures prices also increase about 10x (much cheaper than Würth direkt still).What makes this Process so much more expensive during Prototypes when it is barely a change during series production?Or am I missing something completely? Everything else is so much cheaper now...(I will pay the 10x higher price in case someone wonders).

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2020, 03:21:48 am
content: Volume my manWith prototypes you are going to get what, 5-10 boards? This is bugger all for fab houses who prefer to deal with high volume orders, otherwise it's just not economical firing up a machine that deals with uVia's

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2020, 06:49:14 am
content: µVia are in multiple dimensions and types. I expect it to be 0.1mm and not copper filled.For low volume this is quite often a very expensive option. Low volume companies must already be specialized more to the high-end PCB fabrication to have the right equipment or they will be outsourcing these steps. Outsourcing will up the cost.The cost of µvia is mostly depending on your stackup. For a good connection the depth of the hole is the diameter of the hole. 100µm hole has 100µm depth.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2020, 07:45:50 am
content: I've always thought this was nonsensical. Why on earth is firing a lasermoreexpensive than wearing out drill bits? You'd think the board houses would want to encourage laser microvias whenever possible.I guess it has to be done at an awkward stage in the stackup assembly process, unlike through-hole vias...

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2020, 07:57:06 am
content: As soon as you want a laser drill your board is moved from the cheap PCB production line to the HDI production line because it has the laser drill machine.A HDI production line is more expensive because all the machinery is super expensive and the fab needs to recover setup costs and maintenance. HDI probably also has more steps and additional setup time required.The kind of customers who need HDI can usually can afford the higher prototype cost. So there will be a bit of "charging what people will pay" going onWe might, at some point, see cheap production lines with a laser drill machine, but i've not heard of any.I think the laser drill machines probably have higher running costs than a simple CNC drill press + bit replacements. Though i'm not sure why. Maybe the laser has high running costs or short lifespan at the speed/power-level needed.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2020, 12:30:06 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 04, 2020, 07:57:06 amOne guess would be that plating the microvias is substantially harder. I'm not sure how that works but I'll bet it's more expensive. Just hard to believe that it's more expensive than drill bits.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2020, 08:14:33 pm
content: The largest microvia is 0.010", so you are still taking the board through the normal drilling and plating process for all of the larger holes. That means, microvia is just another process added on, so more cost.If you could somehow design a board with only microvias, then consumables might be lower. But keep in mind the up-front cost of a high power laser is a lot higher than a CNC router, and lasers also don't last forever (tube will need replacement after a while).A $1 carbide PCB drill used for small vias might last 1,000 times, 1/10th of a cent per hole. Not sure how that compares to laser.https://www.we-online.com/web/en/leiterplatten/produkte_/microvia_hdi_leiterplatten/herstellverfahren_/Herstellverfahren_HDI.phphttp://www.ysbackupboard.com/news/PCB_drill_industry/pcbdrillingcost.html

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2020, 09:57:05 pm
content: The other thing could be speed. Regular holes can be drilled in stacks of boards, for large runs even using multiple drills that all come down at once. So very high throughput. AFAIK lasering is a lot slower in comparison, and that alone would increase cost.

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2020, 07:23:18 am
content: Thanks for all your Input, I probably underestimate how much of a process uVia still are for small runs.I use them a lot however and I find that many designs these days would take to many compromises without.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2020, 10:42:34 am
content: anyone know what type of laser they use for uVia's is it a CO2 tube laser or a diode block?

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2020, 12:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 05, 2020, 10:42:34 amAccording to the link provided by thm_wQuote from: thm_w on August 04, 2020, 08:14:33 pmShadow mask / CO2 laser or UV Laser / CO2 Laser or plain UV Laser

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2020, 01:52:56 pm
content: I feel like it's the same situation as was few years ago with multilayer PCBs, or 0.1 mm traces and 0.2 mm drills, which were a "premium" product. I remember complaining about it on this very forum few years ago. And look where we are today - these (and even better!) features and nowstandard, with no extra charges required! I suspect (and hope) that laser uVia is going to become a commodity tech in a coming years the same way.