SUGGESTION: First Oscilloscope / Function Generator - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Zopsi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 07:41:18 am
content: Hey guys,I am looking to create my test bench. I am currently about to graduate with an electrical and computer engineering degree. I would like to buy an oscilloscope and I had a few suggestions from people.At first I was looking at the Tektronix 2014C (NEW), but then I thought that might get outdated too fast for the price (~1950 USD). So I went on to look at the Rigol DSDS1102E, which has nice specifications but looks very cheap (very cheap price-wise as well). I have already purchased a very cheap Tektronix 465b as I wanted an old analog scope in addition to a digital one. As for the function generator I have no clue what to get I was looking at the Rigol 1022 in addition to the Instek AFG-2100 series (has to have arbitrary waveform). I am mainly looking for a NEW oscilloscope as I already have an old 465b.Currently I have an Instek GPS-4303 DC power supply for my bench and that is all.I am also in the market for a fluke meter. My buddy has a Fluke 287 and loves it. Would that be suitable for electronics work?Is there anything else you could suggest for my bench other than a soldering station, dc power supply, oscilloscope, arbitrary waveform generator, and some hand tools?Any suggestions would be welcome.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 08:09:24 am
content: OF course the 287 is suitable for electronics work ... it was designed for !Anyway, if you'd like get a UT61E as a backup meter ... it's good for it's price.You need a good vise, not neccesarily the panavise sort, bright torchlight for locating things and also bright lighting in which the ikea tertial plus a 22W fluoro would doYou also need a hot air rework station but mostly ... OH i forgot the fire extinguisherA boatload of components, heatshrink, desoldering station if you want to do (REAL) plated through hole desoldering easily,You can buy a Hantek DDS3x25 as a arb gen instead, cheap and really powerful ( 50MHz sine wave... 100MHz using mecha's software )A dremel or clone or similar, can be very usefulIC extractor, PLCC extractor, i use a wire crimper as a wire stripper and that's even better then those automatic wire strippers.Flux, nibbling tool, desoldering braid, big nylon brushThe best solder you should get and i love to use is the Kester 58 plus my favourite kester flux pen is the 951

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 08:26:10 am
content: Quote from: zopsi on May 20, 2012, 07:41:18 amDon't touch the Tek 2000 series, one of the worst bang-per-buck scopes on the market.It might be worth holding out for the new Rigol 2000 series scope coming soon, that looks really slick for rumoured to be around the $1K mark.QuoteYes, certainly, but it chews the batteries and pretty big. Not the best choice for an everyday use meter for the basic tasks. The 87V is better for that.QuoteMore power supplies, and a 2nd good multimeter. I've shown in some videos how 4 meters is useful, but I'd say two is pretty essential in any decent lab.Dave.

author: bigboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 05:22:51 pm
content: I think Rigol DS1102E + DG1022 suite should be your best choice.DS1102E is the augmented edition of DS1052E, its bandwidth reach 100MHz, but DS1052E is 50MHz, and the newest firmware of DS1052E can't be cracked to 100MHz, so if you need a 100MHz digital oscilloscope at a good price, DS1102E is your choice.DG1022 waveform generator is Rigol's HOT product, It is no exaggeration to say that DG1022 is the supreme cost performance function generator, and DG1022 + DS1102E is Rigol's recommendatory suite.You can find it through the following links:DS1102E:http://www.diyertool.com/measuring-equipment/oscilloscopes/rigol-ds1102e-digital-oscilloscopes-100mhz-dual-channels.htmlDG1022:http://www.diyertool.com/measuring-equipment/function-generators/rigol-dg1022-function-waveform-signal-generator.htmlDIYer Tool ship goods fast and their service is very responsibly.Hope this can help you!

author: Zopsi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 06:05:43 pm
content: Thanks for all your great replies.DaveXRQ,The Hantek DDS3x25 looks very nice, but I would prefer to have components that do not plug into my computer. Currently I only have the Hakko FX-951 soldering station with a heat gun. I think I also might have a very cheap ayoue hot air rework station but it is put away somewhere. I also have a host of wiha precision ESD safe screwdrivers and some lindstrom cutters and pliers. I appreciate the recommendation on solder though I never knew what to buy.Is the UT61E good? From what I can see it is great for its price.Dave (EEVblog),Do you have any idea when the Rigol 2000 series will be out? I was hoping to get some of this equipment for my birthday.The Fluke 287 would be something I work with on the bench and as needed. I would not travel with it. Any other recommendations would be great though.Any recommendations on a function generator?Bigboy,I will not buy from diyertool because they are overpriced. Your recommendation has been invalidated as I have seen you recommending them constantly (possible a representative?).Thanks for all your responses guys.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 07:47:47 pm
content: I wouldn't spend as much on a scope as on a function generator. You will probably use the scope much more. Why do you need arbitrary capability? Do you need bandwidth beyond say 1 MHz? You may consider going for a cheaper function gen (eg. basic few MHz DDS thing like the < $200 GW-Instek SFG-1003/1013) and a nicer scope (Hantek/Owon, Agilent DSOX2000 series, maybe the yet unknown Rigol DS2000 series).The UT-61E seems to get decent reviews, though I wouldn't put it in the same league as the Fluke 287/87V. Input protection was lacking as I recall (though not as bad as the UT-71 series). There's a long UT-61E teardown thread. I believe the conclusions were that it's decent given the price. Should be fine as second DMM.Other high-end DMM's to consider are the Fluke 87V that Dave already mentioned, the Fluke 28-II (not worth a large premium over the 87V for lab use, but in some regions the price is almost identical and it has some minor improvements over the 87V), and the Agilent U1250 series.

author: Zopsi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 07:55:36 pm
content: I was under the impression that Hantech and Owon were of slightly lesser quality than Rigol. I have no doubt that Agilent is much greater than all three except I have used a Tektronix at work and at school so I am more accustomed to that.To be honest this was just going to be a temporary scope for a couple years until I determine my true needs and get enough money to buy a nice Tek or Agilent scope. I do not necessarily need arbitrary waveforms, but it would be a benefit. I looked at the newer instek stuff, but it looks so cheap compared to the stuff they were doing 5-10 years ago.I wish I knew when the Rigol DS2000 series was coming out.In terms of the DMM I think I am going to go with a Fluke 87V and 287. The multimeters I don't plan on replacing any time soon.I heard Agilent was slacking on some of their newer stuff and also uses Windows XP on some of their stuff.Thanks for your reply.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 09:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: zopsi on May 20, 2012, 07:55:36 pmQA seems somewhat worse, but features and specs are definitely better. The Rigol DS1000E series is getting kind of old. For Tektronix look at the DPO2000/3000/4000 series. The TDS 1000/2000/3000 series are essentially 10+ year old designs. The TDS 1000 and 2000 are based on the TDS 200 (late nineties?) and the original TDS 3000 is from around 1995. The only changes have been some software changes and connectivity like USB. They don't really have anything competitive with the Agilent DSOX series, but at least the DPO series have more memory and better waveform update rates.Quote from: zopsi on May 20, 2012, 07:55:36 pmThe GW-Instek stuff won't fool you into thinking you bought an Agilent function gen, but you're not paying Agilent prices either. If you are getting an arbitrary waveform / function generator, check out the software that comes with it. Last time I checked, Rigol software had quite limited features, and the recommendation was essentially to download the Tektronix software, use it to create the signal and import it into the Rigol software. At that time, a used HP function gen seemed like a better deal. Documentation was also quite limited for the Rigol.Quote from: zopsi on May 20, 2012, 07:55:36 pmI'm curious why you're considering the Rigol DS2000 but not the Agilent DSOX2000. Price appears to be fairly similar. I haven't compared the specs, but the Agilent scopes have the advantage of not being vaporware at this point.Quote from: zopsi on May 20, 2012, 07:55:36 pmAll of the big scope vendors use Windows on their higher models these days. Not on the low-end models like the DSOX2000 series, however. Quality may not be like in the old HP days, but neither are today's Tektronix products. I would still take Agilent over Rigol. Rigol has had some minor QC issues (rotary encoders dying, cracking knobs, excessive noise). I haven't heard any complaints about the Agilent DSOX scopes, although there are of course much fewer owners on this forum.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 09:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: zopsi on May 20, 2012, 07:55:36 pmWinXP ? You meanWinCEAnyway, Owon has better components internally compared to Rigol.

author: Zopsi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 09:47:12 pm
content: Alright so here is the deal guys. I don't think you guys completely understand my reasoning.If I am going to spend somewhere between 1500-3000 USD on a nice DSO by Agilent or Tektronix I want it to last a little less than a decade at least. I chose the Rigol one because it was only $400 and I would buy a nice scope in a couple years from now when I (hopefully) have a nice job.If I were to spend that much it would be something like the Agilent DSOX2024A or DSOX2014A or even the Tektronix DPO2014 (or similar).What are the major differences between these products?How is the Agilent and Tektronix service and support on those products?What would be the cheapest agilent function generator if I went with them so that the scope and function generator are of the same brand?Thanks for your replies. I just need a little bit more help before I make that leap.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 12:27:44 am
content: I understand your point about buying a cheap scope for now or buying a better one for the long term, and I'm not recommending against the Rigol DS1102E. I was just confused by your interest in the Rigol DS2000, while rejecting the Agilent scopes. The cheapest Agilent DSOX2000 series scope is a little over $1000, and I believe the Rigol DS2000 series is expected to be somewhere around $1000, so neither would be a cheap scope.If you consider the Rigol DS1102E, then I would recommend a second look at the Hantek and Owon scopes. Especially the Hantek scope appears to be a fairly decent scope with better specs in some regard (eg. screen size, update rate). The Owon scopes are a mixed bag in my opinion. Good hardware, especially memory depth, and in many aspects comparable or better than the Hantek (except update rate). Software is clearly inferior, however, and Owon doesn't appear to be working very hard on fixing it. The Rigol DS1102E is definitely the safest, a proven performer compared to Owon and Hantek.The major banner spec for the DSOX2000 series is the extremely fast update rate, 50 k/second. Something like an order of magnitude more than the Tek DPO2000, and much more than the Rigol DS1102E. Record length is a bit on the small side with 100 kpoints, not as bad as the old 2.5k Tek scopes (eg. TDS2000), but less than the 1 Mpoints of the DPO2000. Cheaper scopes like the Rigol DS1102E will also do 1 Mpoints if you ignore the fastest sweep speeds. The Owon has even more memory. Another cool feature of the Agilent scopes are the ability to upgrade bandwidth or other options. This allows you to buy a 70 MHz scope now and upgrade it to a 200 MHz MSO later (you probably will have to send it to Agilent to have the bandwidth upgraded).If you're looking for a function generator, you might also consider the Wavegen option for the Agilent scopes. I believe they have only unlocked the arbitrary waveform ability in the 3000 series so far, not in the 2000 series. I don't think the price ($500?) is very attractive compared to a separate function generator, especially without the arb feature. It does make for a nice compact package.My impression is that Agilent's long term support is better than Tektronix these days, although I wouldn't count on either supporting the instrument for ten years.The Agilent DSOX 2000/3000 series have been introduced fairly recently. The Tektronix DPO2000/3000/4000 series has been out for a while (DPO2000 was introduced in 2008) and is due for an update to compete with Agilent, but when this is going to happen is anyone's guess. I haven't heard anything concrete, and Tek has an history of underwhelming updates. eg.:1998: TDS200: 1GS/s, 2.5kpoints, QVGA monochrome display2002: TDS2000: 0.5-2GS/s, 2.5kpoints, QVGA color display2006: TDS2000B: 0.5-2GS/s, 2.5kpoints, QVGA color display, adds USB2010: TDS2000C: 0.5-2GS/s, 2.5kpoints, QVGA color display, adds some automated measurements and other software featuresThe cheapest Agilent function gen is the 33210A, but arbitrary waveforms are an option that costs another $400. The next higher model is the 33220A, which includes arbitrary waveforms as standard. These are great performers, but quite expensive.

author: Zopsi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 01:07:23 am
content: QuoteI don't really care about them supporting it for that long, but would they be able to repair it (for a fee) within 8 years. I also would like it to be durable enough to last that long (with good care of course).So if I bought the cheaper 4 channel DSO from Agilent I would be able to upgrade it to the more expensive one? The sampling rate is the same for the whole series correct? Say a DSOX2004A to the 100 MHz version or can I go from the DSOX2004A all the way to the 200 MHz version?By the way how old is the Agilent DSOX2000 series vs. the Tektronix DPO2000 series?

author: mAJORD
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 01:33:20 am
content: I have the MSO version of the tektronix 2000 (mixed signal) here at work, and while its a quality unit, its hardware and software are dated, and outclassed in every way by the new agilents. Not even a contest. I wish I could make this one disappear so I could get one instead.The fact you can upgrade the base model to a higher spec AND to an mso through software just adds insult to injury :p

author: mAJORD
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 01:35:33 am
content: Quote from: zopsi on May 21, 2012, 01:07:23 amThe agilent launched earlier this year. The tek 2000 launched in 2008 irrc.Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 01:58:31 am
content: The Agilent DSOX 2000/3000 series was launched a little over a year ago. You can upgrade from 70 MHz to 100 MHz, and from 100 MHz to 200 MHz, so I don't expect 70 MHz to 200 MHz to be an issue. The DSOX 2000/3000 series were discussed extensively on this forum when they were introduced, those threads should be easy to find.I just noticed that Agilent currently offers the Wavegen option for free, at least in the US. That would make for a very attractively priced function generator, even though it lacks arbitrary waveform abilities (for now, at least).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 02:22:51 am
content: Quote from: zopsi on May 20, 2012, 06:05:43 pmLast I heard it was not going to until the 3rd quarter, it seems very up in the air.I'm supposed to be getting a Rigol 4000 function gen this month for review, but haven't heard anything...Dave.

author: Zopsi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 04:27:51 am
content: Looks like I'm going to buy the four channel Agilent since they seem the best. I will probably upgrade from the 70 MHz to 100 MHz at some point.QuoteWow that is pretty good. They are also offering a free voltmeter upgrade. I wish they would have offered the function generator and MSO upgrade for free though that would have been absolutely perfect.