Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 02:58:47 pm
content: Have you noticed that slowly but surely, un-civilized discourse across most, if not all internet forums has increased?It doesn't matter the topic being discussed, although certain forums (history, for instance) are the proverbial powder kegs waiting for an errant spark.But even highly technical discussions are not immune, and we all have witnessed (or participated) on some which quickly degraded into the political realm, which is very polarized and ugly right now.There are also specific instances in technical forums, made by newbies with preposterous questions: "Can anyone draw me a schematic for a 10,000w sinewave inverter? I have a 741 and a pair of 2N3055s that I would like to use." And when someone knowledgeable attempts to reason with them, they reply with a variation of "Are you going to help me out or not?"And I know, I know.Flame wars have existed since the beginning of time, back when users were lurking at text-only, monochrome displays.

author: chriva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 03:08:10 pm
content: Could also be the rona'Lot's of people at home, dissatisfied and bored with things

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 03:14:40 pm
content: I think that trend (if real) is due to the also increased amount of Users overall.For example I personally find the amount of active Users on this Forum pretty amazing but it obviously also brings a lot of people together who disagree strongly on subjects with only a little spark needed to let the tempers take over...Maybe look on the brighter side more and be happy we have so many engaged people trying to learn and do things + the ability to do so not only here, but overall.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 03:16:16 pm
content: There are several "boomer rant" style threads going around. It seems people can't do anything about the current situation so they need something else to get pissed off at, even if illegitimate/illogical.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 03:48:54 pm
content: I don't want to put any judgement here, so I'll share my experience from moderating one forum which I don't want to mention here.I used to be a moderator on a relatively popular forum. It was quite offensive and personal from the beginning, but it was a small community, people used to know each other, so that was an acceptable situation. Sort of a "friendly" unfriendly place. Then the forum became popular, many new people joined, newcomers adopted the culture they way they saw it. The result was/is quite a few users who have no respect whatsoever, personal insults, lots of drama, etc. A few people develop anxiety and other issues, which made them perfect targets for other trolls. The forum became a very toxic, although I'd say it's only 5 or 10% of people were responsible for the majority troubles. Same drama queens again and again.I observed how people behavior changed over years. Quite a few people became impossible to communicate, they became very offensive yet very sensitive, and with enormous ego. They really got troubles with communicating other people in a calm and constructive way. I'd say they needed a help of psychologist. Worse yet, this culture went far out of the forum. Many members brought the same culture and same problems to other places too.I attribute this to the way the community was managed. One of the rules was is a user seems to be a valuable contributor, s/he could do everything. This policy re-enforced certain behavior among people.I believe mutual respect is far more important in the long run than anything else. My advice would be to just erase offensive messages, this worked quite well on our forum. Trouble is, we were not able to find an agreement what was offensive, and was not, part because users learned how to write offensive messages in a way that it's hard to judge if it's offensive or not. So, moderators were too busy discussing these matters instead of doing anything. Unfortunately, some people became very skilled at ruining communities so it's hard to see what damage they cause until too late. Offensive behavior is also "contagious", I saw normal users turning into trolls.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 04:07:42 pm
content: It's about egos. It can all be traced back to egos. For the most part, people come to forums not to learn but to act smart, because it builds their egos and makes them feel good. It's the same in youtube. People want entertainment and feeling good, not learning.People love to give their opinions and sound smart and above everyone else. Facts are irrelevant. The want to hear stuff that agrees with what they've chosen to believe because it makes them feel good. And when others challenge or correct them, they get labelled as "trolls". Forums are good when everyone agrees. Forums are bad when outsiders come in who disagree. Who's right or wrong is irrelevant.And I think the culture has promoted that. The "push a button to like or dislike" mentality has helped isolate people into their own little universes. They can quickly avoid anything that doesn't agree with them, and be shown only those things they "like". And they actually get reinforced to believing that they are experts if they watch a 4 minute video on any tech topic. They have no clue the vast universe of stuff that's out there that they don't even know exists. And they don't want to know. They've made up their minds and facts are irrelevant. If not, they just click to dislike and go elsewhere.They want only good stuff that makes them feel good and they want it NOW and if they don't get it NOW they click to go somewhere else. Learning is far too painful. And moreover they're now ENTITLED to get what they want, for free, right now, and if not they dislike it and go elsewhere.So yeah, real cranky. And it's only gonna get worse.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 04:08:39 pm
content: Indeed, the COVID-19, the economy, the desperate situation in many corners of the World, the political characters who gained power thorough insults and disrespect....everything starts fermenting inside one's brain.And let's not forget about newscasts. One is bombarded 24/7 and 360/360 (what I call 24/7/360-squared) with terrible news from around the World. And with so many news outlets competing for your limited time, they have to provide more terrible and outrageous news. Every day.The only way to "dissipate this excess negative energy" to borrow an electronic term, is by overheating an stressing your immediate "components".BTW: I've stopped watching or reading newscasts almost completely.I call it self-psychotherapy.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 04:30:19 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on May 25, 2020, 04:08:39 pmSame, many years ago. I used to be "challenged" by friends with question like "how I am remain connected with the world if I don't follow news", etc. I think this is called a "fear of missing out".I also noticed how some people consume news almost 24/7, and react on pretty much everything. Then they feel the need to spread the news, but really they only project their fears and anxiety. It's almost never good news, it's most of the time something bad happened on the other side of the globe, and they are worried about themselves and their relatives. "Funny" thing is, they almost never asses if the information they got is likely to be true or not. Critical thinking is not there. I tried to tell them that news bring them only anxiety, and they don't have to react on everything, especially to things not involving them anyhow (which is ~99% of news, as news are very rarely actionable), or about things that they cannot even verify anyhow (fake news, etc). They don't understand me.Anyway, I feel like discussing this raises my anxiety too, so I better shut up for my own sake.

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 09:42:30 pm
content: Here and everywhere else too.I mean, I'm not exactly not becoming younger for nothing.Besides hyper-inflated egos here in my peer of groups the younger ones seem to be less or not prepared to deal with failures and people with a different mindset or do not take a no for answer.And there's no way to convey that by saying no we might be rejecting a premise or proposal but not the person itself. (in general...).Gosh, I miss the tantrums between blakeyrat, nagesh and spamcourt.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 09:58:33 pm
content: I would say, personally, I find it entertaining to play devils advocate regardless of where I find myself on the subject. I like debating, real points not imaginary things, and I partake more often when I've got nothing much to do. It's not trolling either, I don't try to rile people up but rather get them to think about their positions and justify them the best they can. The only real problem is some people can't justify their positions and get angry instead lashing out. I typically give up when people get like that because it's not fun when people are just getting angry and irrational.I look forward to being able to be around more real people since on the internet people are far more likely to skip a debate and go irrational or argue non-points from the get go. There is of course the issue with people getting older and more attached to their positions which makes it a more emotional argument than it should be so it's probably multiple things. Of course you could also be on forums more often now and just see it more often. Who knows?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 10:20:13 pm
content: In the old days, it was about discussing a topic to hash it out, learn and have some fun.Now, many Internet forums are all about ego, fending off trolls and arguing with people that are contributing nothing but discord or playing the contrarian to gain attention and feel self-important.It takes a lot of time and energy to argue with people that don't have the same knowledge and are incapable of learning anything because they take it all personally and go hostile- instead of figuring it out, learning, adapting.As I've said a few times, upvotes or likes are used on some sites to improve quality on posts- but they can be brigaded or corrupted by bots, so they are not much of an answer. Karma or points did not seem to work either.Internet forums need to evolve and somehow keep the S/N ratio decent. The Arduino forums are hilarious, the old dogs there give shit to arrogant, vague, lazy posters all the time. You don't see that here.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 10:26:41 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on May 25, 2020, 02:58:47 pmNo, not really. You couldn't get away with the level of personal attacks seen on comp.electronics in the bygone ages here.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 10:33:13 pm
content: Lazy posters....exactly!People who ask basic questions like:what is the RDSon of this particular Mosfet?And when told to read the datasheet, because RDS0n is a function of several other parameters, and BTW what are your operational parameters? They become belligerent with replies like:Can you give me a value or not?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 10:48:46 pm
content: I'm guilty of a lot of this stuff. I'm sure I'm on a few radars for being an old crank, in general. Not particularly political, but on technical matters (or reality, as I like to see it; though realities are a bit flexible, these days).One of the worst things about the modern world is YouTube. It's completely evil. 15 years ago, when you wanted to research something on the internet, you got words. People shared information in text. You could collect a lot of info and absorb it. Today, that is on the verge of extinction, because of high speed internet and YouTube. Today, the same info is gone and moved to videos. To get that info from a video, you have to watch the entire fucking thing and in most cases listen to someone else drone on and on... and listen to "and if you like this video, smash the like button and subscribe." And because of of search algorithms and up/downvotes, popularity is more important than the info.Modern internet is not very useful anymore for sharing information. It's for sharing experience/entertainment. I don't know if it's purposeful move by our puppet masters, but it's a major shift I've seen and lament.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 11:14:16 pm
content: I 100% agree on YouTube. Almost any technical video is a waste of time(I'm exaggerating, plenty of good on TI, R&S and other channels). Even Dave's videos he has multiple corrections in text which is good, but not as good as clear concise text on the matter. Luckily I have plenty of books I've read but I worry which information people actually remember in those cases. The words or the text? Maybe the only latched on to the tangent and missed all of the technical data.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2020, 11:15:01 pm
content: TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything- it's like watching a video with someone explaining how to do a math exam. You don't actually experience the pain and learn the math, instead it's someone showing you the answers.Society has some weird avoidance around "not knowing", as if it equals being dumb. The ability to figure out and learn things is what matters, that is where the gold is. "Not knowing" is a great place and piles of fun in electronics.Some developing countries seem to feel entitled to our knowledge, instead of putting in the effort to learn the craft. When you do help them, they scold you about something and then change the info or requirements.In extreme cases, there are posts commanding their entire design they need - "provide sample schematic, firmware and total explanation of circuit theory and operation" etc.As if they are an outsourced contract employee... and clueless about how to live up to their fake resume claims.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 12:01:56 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 25, 2020, 11:15:01 pmI can't argue against this but I, pre-shutdown, belonged to a robotics club(actually a couple). So many of the members would use youtube videos to learn things and when you'd ask them about things they'd refer you to youtube. Years ago when I started going it really annoyed me especially when I'd actually watch one and find it was useless or even worse inaccurate/wrong. These weren't young people either, retired engineers, working engineers, doctors, ex-air force... They all seemed to get a large amount of their information from youtube. So even though WE know it's not very good a lot of people do it and that's what, I think, makes it so bad.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 12:07:22 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on May 25, 2020, 02:58:47 pmI had to step back, think for a moment, and wonder if you serious when you say "becoming" - BECOMING? HAH! DOUBLE-HAH!! TRIPLE-HAH!!! EEVblog forum members seem to be grumpy, miserable, nit-picking old gits BY DEFAULT - if ever I've seen grumpy, EEVblog magnifies this a billion fold to another level. So, yeah, I am not sure about the "becoming" part - I've always known of this forum as a place where arrogant, know-it-all, miserable saddos with no life hang out (and where they make it VERY CLEAR, very quickly that they have no life outside the "community" they kid themselves they're "part of".)It's almost as if you're "expected" to put up with it, and be grateful for membership, and that it's "par for the course" - like this pedantic arrogance is worn as a "badge of pride" by many (not all, naturally).Have you EVER heard such a flaming crock of shit as the concept of ANY online forum being a "community"? The term is bandied about ad nauseum, but it doesn't make it any more true. Whenever I see this bollocks about intermet "community" online, I wonder if those proposing that this spirit exists, have forgotten what REAL COMMUNITIES are about - people who are physically living within close proximity to one another, usually have known each other IN THE REAL, PHYSICAL WORLD for many years or decades, have been to dinner with one another, gone for days out together/holidays together, know one another's family members REALLY WELL and could be trusted to be left in those people's houses with their family and their private sanctuary... I dare not expand further - the utter FANTASY of text on a website, being anywhere REMOTELY close to a REAL communtiy, is beyond words delusional.If I am out for a walk and get caught short, and need a sh## and you don't bat an eyelid when I knock on your door and ask to use your WC, *THEN* I know you're a real friend.Anyway, you got my view - take or leave it, it's no skin off my nose, but "becoming" grumpy? LOL.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 12:59:00 am
content: QuoteIn my mind, you're describing me. Except I have no illusion I'm a part of a community, other than this is a place where some people are compelled to occasionally read and respond to what I post.Personally, I have never felt a part of a community what you describe, and I'm not sure I want that. My friends are few. Most of the "friends" I've had in life were more liability than asset.Humans are self-interested, egocentric, and have ulterior motives and agendas. That's why we're above animals. That's why we suck. Half my posts on this forum, I am not there for that. I'm just there to tell you that you're wrong. In case you were curious how things really work.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 01:18:15 am
content: QuoteTalking is just not a good medium for conveying some things. I used to get infuriated by some of the responses I would get to questions on the Microchip PIC forums. The two top active users answering my questions, they invariably responded pretty much verbatim what I already read (and was not quite understanding) in the manual. I actually honestly suspected that these guys didn't fully understand everything they were saying, so they would look things up and copy it right from the datasheet.Fast forward years later, when I understand a lot of PIC architecture and assembly, I realize there's quite often a very limited way to state something without being wrong or misleading in some other way. And when you understand this complex thing, it's hard to understand where the missing connection is in someone else's head. Thus, the technical parlay. This nuanced and exacting technical parlay is bad enough in text. To watch a video would be horrible.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 01:24:29 am
content: Quote from: eti on May 26, 2020, 12:07:22 am

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 02:03:05 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on May 26, 2020, 12:59:00 am*Keyword "personally" - maybe they thought the same of you, but were too forgiving or kind to say? Never mind. Your OWN, 1-in-~7BN people life experience doesn't mean one having friends is always "a liability" - that's you seeing your past through the lens of YOUR experience, nowt else.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 09:36:11 am
content: You guys grew up sheltered in radicalized liberal safe space echo chambers and gotta be new to the Internet in generalQuote from: eti on May 26, 2020, 12:07:22 amYou have to be reading some garbage threads, most technical discussions are high quality here. Yes, people post occasional nitpicks and irrelevant tangents, but your mouse has that wheel thingy on it, learn to use itQuote from: eti on May 26, 2020, 12:07:22 amYeah, maybe

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 11:43:59 am
content: The world has become awash with all the noisy few percent that make a ruckus linking up and finding each other. I saw a good article on this somewhere awhile ago but more or less comes down to that mass media information used to be funneled and filtered due to being like a newspaper and now with the internet, everyone is interlinked directly. Now the unruly are linking up and finding each other to promote their low value information to each other.For a long time now I've thought that the series Firefly / movie Serenity actually nailed it pretty close that we will merge into a hybrid system of Euroamerican / Chinese meeting in the middle. The main issue being out of control anything usually isnt a good thing and this particular topic directly a result of freedom to publish garbage.The real question is where do you find the balance to advance society?---Now as far as technical discussions, there are plenty here i find to be high quality. Also youtube has a lot of good content if you know where to look and able to consume it in that format but you have to wade through the 98% garbage to find it which is its main problem

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 12:02:12 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 25, 2020, 11:15:01 pmMy response to those pleading 'contractors' is, do your own friggin college project, just like everyone else on your course who are hard at work figuring this out. Hang on, I did actually post that once to a freeloader who wrote, I understand how the circuit works, I just need to know what a resistance is. Google "people per hour", it's full of 'homework opportunities'.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 12:39:10 pm
content: It's ALWAYS the "other guy" who's at fault. Always.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 03:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 25, 2020, 11:15:01 pmI tried saying exactly that in another thread recently – that looking for tutorials at Youtube is not sensible – and all I achieved was getting Dave mad, and calling me a troll who has a psychological need to get the final word.I love good criticism. You know, the kind that has a sharp point that forces you to think, but a well founded, helpful argument behind it: poking at the argument, and not at the person. That stuff gets lost when people are too terse. Then again, I personally am way too verbose, with lower signal to noise ratio than I'd like. Workin' on it, though.Because of the above, I like text for references, tutorials and background information, and videos for demonstrations, examples, and work logs. Mixing the two seems to work even better. Having a grumpy, cranky old-man tone isn't a negative there, as long as there is useful information and a bit of humour there. Just look at AvE or KeithAppleton on Youtube. In my opinion, of course.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 04:40:00 pm
content: Youtube is free. Complaining about it is bordering on insane. Youtube creators spend a ton of time producing stuff, and the vast majority of tech youtubers get little or nothing in return. Except for complaints and 357 variations of "oh, you should have done it THIS way". And people expecting you to be their private tutor for free. And give them all the code you write.Absolutely insane. A lot of selfish, entitled people out there.Instead, you should be thanking every single freakin' one of them for what they do, and hitting the like button so often it breaks your freakin' mouse. And subscribe to EVERYONE. Because that's the only way they get a few measly pennies in return for their many hours of work.And if you really think their stuff sucks and you can do it better, then do it. Show the world how freakin' brilliant you are and how much better you are. Start your own channel, and learn what it's really like.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 04:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 26, 2020, 04:40:00 pmI agree with that. It also looks like the more you give, the more people are expecting from you.Of course, if you manage to make good money out of it (which is not trivial), it can be worth it, but otherwise, it can be pretty frustrating.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 04:52:28 pm
content: It's funny how the threadthat supposed to be a rare example of group consciousnessis slowly derailing

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 04:59:20 pm
content: Actually, thank everyone who contibutes to this vast digital universe of ours for free. The wiki editors, the open source coders, the web site builders and graphic designers, content providers, bloggers, vloggers and I guess, even the moderators.Where were we 25 years ago? Not here.Thanks Dave.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 05:07:08 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 26, 2020, 04:40:00 pmHey, if that was intended for me, my point was that in my experience (learning, teaching, and tutoring), written text works much better as an information source (especially if interspersed with demo/example/experiment/worklog videos) thananytutorial videos I've ever seen. I am NOT saying that the videos suck; I'm only saying it is a poor medium for tutorials: like boiling water in a plastic bag. I am also saying that that there already are cranky scrooges doing good demo/example/experiment/worklog videos on Youtube, with AvE and KeithAppleton as examples. I'd include BigClive and Dave too, but I haven't seen either of them cranky.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 05:26:29 pm
content: QuoteI have a fairly long list of subscriptions. I hit like everytime I most of the videos I watch defacto. But... in some cases you will likely never even find the video that contains the information you want to see. Because you only have a few search terms and the few words in a title and w/e other info algorithm YT uses... besides view count/likes. YouTube is not as searchable the way text is. When you search and find text, you can scan it to see if it's what you want. You can quickly compare one text source with another to determine where they agree, where there are differences of opinion or differences in the stated facts. When you search YT you get a list of titles, viewcount, like/dislike. The only way to see what's in it is to stick the fork in it and start eating w/e is at the top. What good is that? Furthermore, if you have your tinfoil hat on, tight, you might start wondering what other criteria YT is using to feed you your results... e.g., politics?QuoteI think you're mistaking what anyone said, here. There are great entertainers. There is great information. The two don't often mix. For some subjects/topics, it really doesn't even make sense. YT is free, but the effect is beyond YT. Since YT, large percentages of text websites and text blogs have gone extinct. You could say it's indirectly because of YT, and I don't think that would be a stretch.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 05:44:49 pm
content: Yes, video blogs have largely "killed" text blogs. I find that annoying.Sometimes, the entertainment value of videos makes them fun and easy to follow (and they give you an opportunity to see things working "live"), but when I'm looking for some info, I often wish it were available as pure text instead of a lengthy video (which may not even contain the info I need.)So yeah, complaining to the authors of these videos is pointless, but complaining about the fact video content has sort of overtaken the web is something else.Videos are more made for "immediate consumption", and tend to make you waste a lot of time if you're actually looking for more than entertainment.Some people manage to make "good" videos, but there are few out there IMO.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 05:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 26, 2020, 04:40:00 pmYouTube is free TO US, but they get paid for doing it (as the incessant, cheesy, crass begging for likes and subscriptions, etc, demonstrates) - they are duly rewarded for their (sometimes) hard work. TV is free in the UK, apart from a meagre fee for a TV licence - but TV is generally tens of orders of magnitude more well researched, shot, edited and narrated - and they have the benefit of DECADES of experience, on-hand experts and VAST archives of past material to go on.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 05:57:01 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on May 26, 2020, 04:59:20 pmYou're right - we we BETTER OFF that way, as too much "information", too much choice boggles and tires the mind. People had marginally, but measurably more patience, more respect and self-control, more manners and exponentially less narcissism than today. I'll take the 90s over this ANY DAY.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 06:12:12 pm
content: To those who are convinced that the average youtube tech creator is "duly rewarded" for his hard work...- The facts are that it typically takes about 1,000 views of a video for the creator to receive $1 US. Yes, that's right. Only $1 for 1,000 views.- And if anyone is thinking about starting a tech youtube channel today, it would likely take you years of regularly posting videos before you could get to the point where you have enough subscribers to be able to get paid any money for your videos. I recall you need something like 1,000 or 2,000 subscribers.- Your videos don't show up when people search for topics unless they are already popular, which means they've received a lot of "likes" and subscriptions. So you can't get popular unless you're popular. And you can't get money unless a lot of people watch your videos.I could go on and on, but the facts are that the average tech youtuber gets very little, if any money, and has to put in years of work to get to that point. There are some exceptions of course, but those are people who have been very consistent and tenacious over the years, and have found the right niche. And they've also accepted the reality that their viewers are more interested in entertainment than in pure tech, and are willing to bend to those demands. Those are the people who realize that the average viewer will only watch the first 4 minutes of a video then click off to go watch a video of a cat playing piano.For those who don't believe this, again I encourage you to start your own channel. You'll be amazed.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 06:21:59 pm
content: Saying there isno goodlearning materials in Youtube is a generalization that borders idiocy. Even if you dislike Dave or find it minimally deep, pick how many people someone like Louis Rossmann helped get into the business over the years, or how many useful tips and theoretical/practical things w2aew shows in his videos. Sure, it may not be the best and most efficient way to deliver specific content but, at the rate of 300h of video uploaded at every minute, there is no humanly possible way to evaluate everything. Throw into that the vast number of different languages and you reach places that never had anything close to that knowledge.Sure, I prefer to learn via a structured way presented on a book or an online article, but with the diminishing returns of printed media (especially in languages other than English) the authors going to an "easier to create" media such as Youtube are still a very reasonable vehicle of content distribution.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 06:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on May 25, 2020, 02:58:47 pmYes and no. It is not as if humanity changed at all, a wider audience just got more exposure. I'd say from the many reasons, a few stick out:- it is too hard to write lengthy posts on mobile devices, which has several effects on peoples' behavior (attention span when on the way, incomplete explanations and such)- social network habits kicking in, as most people probably started interacting online via social networks, not usenet, mailing lists, forumsI'd also say the topic title ("Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums") focuses too much onwhowrites instead ofwhat is written. This makes a huge difference in any topic - because it ignores the topic and gives rise to putting people in categories, which then becomes the topic. The latter is one of the biggest mistakes that can happen in a conversation, it is impossible to argue about pure existence or immutable properties without going extreme. Examples are plentiful in this thread.QuoteThe nice thing about these questions is: give them as much effort as put in the question, in such cases it wasn't much. Works with any member on a forum, no need to make a distinction of newbie/old fart/political orientation and such.Quote from: floobydust on May 25, 2020, 11:15:01 pmDepends what kind of knowledge and from which end you approach the problem: from proving of having understood/applying/delivering a solution or from the process of learning. People are usually opposed to learn the same things a second time - maybe they need to refresh it once in a while. But that opposition is stronger than watching someone applying it.There is knowledge which i could not learn from a textbook, i need to see how it's done and there are exceptionally good teachers on youtube showing their bag of tricks (or just plain basic knowledge) to anyone willing to watch it. Of course i think they should get more in return than some opinionated comment rant, but well - it is how it is.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 07:58:19 pm
content: There's tons of good data in YT, of course. But it's like having the Homeland Security's vault of metadata. It's not practical to sort/search data in video format.QuoteEveryone knows that. People don't need a reward to share info. They do it because they want to. You can't do that on YT, though, because YT doesn't work that way. Because the contents of videos are not indexable/searchable very easily. But somehow our modern search engines will offer 100's of video hits, which are highly based on a title and key words and popularity/trends (and.. marketing bots are part of that), because... that's what is practical for a video. YT is a business. You could say this business is detrimental to the sharing of knowledge and beneficial to large marketers and media companies. And that it could have a larger effect on the entire internet.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 08:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 26, 2020, 06:21:59 pmYou cannot teach somebody complex technical subjects by feeding them video and audio only; it just does not work. Every human learns in a slightly different way, and have a slightly different knowledge base, and need to dynamically adjust their focus to their personal needs. This is why video and audio alone are not suitable for tutorials. This is also why just sitting in college or university classes and only listening won't get you far: you need to delve into the material on your own, and get a somewhat intuitive grasp on it, so that you can apply the knowledge as a tool. Being able to recite information but not apply it is useless.Experiments, tips and tricks, showing details and "traps for young players" that often is gained only via real world experience, and so on, are not tutorials. They are much less information dense, and are structured much more like a story. The high points are often easy to note, and their conveyed details easily integrated; but only if the surrounding story supports it. The viewer/listener is a passive participant, "experiencing" the story; in the best case, like watching over the shoulder of a seasoned professional. It can be a very important part of the whole machinery of learning, but it alone does not suffice.It is sheer idiocy to believe videos and/or podcasts alone could suffice. Humans do not work that way. You can learn a lot of stuff that way, for example languages, but not everything; and especially not complex creative tasks or technical subjects. Those require more fundamental changes in the human mind than mere passive observation can induce.You can glorify quick-and-easy media as much as you like, but the simple fact is that if you base your technical learning on Youtube videos, it will be superficial and poor indeed. And it is not because the videos are poor, it is because they are unsuitable for the task because of how human learning works.If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, so I guess it is easy to think videos alone work, if they make you forget all the other work you've done to learn.It is true that pure text and pictures is not as effective as text and pictures with an occasional story highlighting an important point, or explaining a crucial detail in another way. Having those as videos with a much less dense information content, with a story-like structure, really REALLY works. Most of you have also read old-style books, with interesting anecdotes or snippets sprinkled in, making the material much more approachable and sometimes even enjoyable; and those without, like reading an old phone book. Or have wondered about a specific type of circuit, and have found an EEVblog video exploring it, and had the overall picture just "click" together.Yet, while those videos and anecdotal text snippets and stories can be critical for learning results, they aren't the whole matter, only the highlights.I'll try not to try and belabor this any further; probably shouldn't even post this... If anyone is interested in exactly why I believe the above is true, feel free to delve intopedagogyandlearning theory.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 08:39:51 pm
content: Quote from: eti on May 26, 2020, 05:57:01 pmAs a programmer back in the pre mobile Spice World era, you know what I mean, Foyles Bookshop in London was my goto library of up to date programming text. I still have here on the shelf a Wrox Press HTML book, a 90s developer bible. The dialup internet, aka AOL, arrived, but we still needed our O'Reilly paperbacks and computer magazines as they were usefull. Now it's just an information avalanche. One we've created all by ourselves.Alexa! So tell me what you want what you really-really want?

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 08:50:26 pm
content: Well.... things were bad 15 years ago when I was in automotive forums. I carry a habit from those days.When conversation turns illogical and uncivil, I just leave the thread. This year is quite special in that Covid-19 virus has placed enormous stress on everyone. That's probably the main course if it's suddenly happening. There were always agitators who purposely try to start an argument. I can usually see right through them. Except for few occasions, I am enjoying relative calm and civility in THIS forum.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 08:55:34 pm
content: Quote from: eti on May 26, 2020, 05:52:29 pmNo, YouTube is NOT free TO US. The cost is hidden from us, that doesn't mean it is free.According to The Verge, youtube annual sales is $15 billion. It all came from advertisements and product prices are inflated cumulatively by $15 billion dollars that we the consumers paid to keep youtube around.This is exactly like the tax the employer paid tax on each employee. Take Social Security for example, the employee and the employer each pays half. (Randomly picking $100...) It looks like you are paying only $100 while the other $100 came out of the employer's pocket. But to the employer, the employer takes that $100 from the budget for your labor and give it to the SSA instead of giving it to you. It matters not to the employer that you didn't get it directly -- It still is what it cost them for your labor.You paid by getting $100 less what the employer actually paid for your labor.They (government, SSA, Google) are counting on most people think it is free because it is hidden - you paid, and your payment is hidden from you.Reference: Youtube revenue ("turn-over" for some of you) from The Verge:https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/3/21121207/youtube-google-alphabet-earnings-revenue-first-time-reveal-q4-2019EDITed: for typo only

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 09:15:21 pm
content: I see a link between OP noticing more discourse in forums, and TV and youtube.Plopping kids in front of a TV for many hours, does damage their brains. This isprovenand the younger generations are products of this kind of parenting. Aggression was an interesting side effect. If TV could really teach, classrooms and teachers would be obsolete.My point- the brain doesn't store the content, just try to remember a TED Talk you've watched... it's just a little dopamine buzz that effects your psyche. I had Lego and books and a tiny bit of TV as a kid, which makes a person different. Then the prevalence of more TV, videos, video games, Internet... generations are more and more affected by all this content flowing into our children like a drug.On the forums, troll food is also a little dopamine buzz from derailing a thread or shitposting, feeling important and powerful. You may notice angry bear members who hate the people here, but stick around for some reason, what's in it for them.There are no means to stop people from derailing a thread, trolling, going into personal attacks, shitposting etc. Mods can shut down a thread as only a last resort.But relying on common courtesy and respect is very noble but I don't think it's enough because one troll can kill a thread with 100's people in it.The very smart people I know are just no longer participating in Internet forums because the S/N ratio is poor, it's hostile and draining of energy.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 09:20:55 pm
content: Rick Law, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but since the beginning of time companies selling products add the cost of advertising to the price of the product. Youtube is no different. They're an advertising agency.The issue was raised that creators get little or no money for all their work, but users don't pay them for it. Instead they act entitled to get what they want. Whether we pay for advertising when we buy products seems a bit irrelevant doesn't it? We also pay for shipping, and manufacturing, and employee benefits, and so on when we buy products.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 09:23:57 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on May 26, 2020, 08:50:26 pmI believe that you hit the nail in the head.Not only the lockdown itself, but the economies are tanking and many (myself included) have lost or will lose their jobs. The incessant bad news, the outrage between groups about how to deal with the fallout.....all these factors take its toll.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 10:52:00 pm
content: Already two entirely separate conversations."cranky scrooges" vs low post count demanders. There is an endless supply of eager/optimistic young people who will answer questions feeling like they are contributing. This group strongly overlaps with those with little to no real experience or ability (Dunning–Kruger etc). If left to run you end up with a forum full of questions and rubbish answers, which encourages more of the same behaviour. Combine that with a trend for people to expect extremely specific advice (that is for their profit/advantage, e.g. find me a lower price on this $10 widget) for free, having come through the internet and its seemingly endless free sources...Youtube has sucked up content producers because it was paying the best, simple as that. Encapsulating information inside a video is a soft form of paywall. If they provided a text version it would reduce the views and cut their income.Quote from: KL27x on May 26, 2020, 07:58:19 pmThink for a moment, youtube has automated captioning and the comments for a video. They have a huge text resource behind each video that is poorly presented to the public but well structured in their database. Google search has no interest in you always finding the "most correct" or "best" information, rather the links that they profit most from. Well structured search queries return their "are you a bot?" captchas, because the vast majority of users are not there for reliable information. Facebook amplify this x1,000,000 and take it to the logical extreme.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 12:05:31 am
content: ^Exactly. I agree. YT computers or workers can search and scan the automated captions or w/e you call it. They have access to the text data. We don't get that. We get w/e YT wants us to find.That amount of power is absolutely frightening. It would be bad enough if they were using this power solely to maximize profits. But we know that's not how people work. Frightening.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 12:12:25 am
content: Computer services were helping us first. Then became center of our attention. Then some took it to obsessive level. Then they became their life itself. Some people are afraid of AI taking over us. It's already happening and without AI.How scary is that?You tube and forums and everything else on Internet has its place. But developing unhealthy obsession is, well, unhealthy. Same thing can be said about any social media. Some people has been attacked in social media. Why can't they just leave that site? I understand for celebrities, it's not that simple, but for most of us? It isn't essential.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 02:55:33 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 26, 2020, 09:20:55 pmThe point I was making is in the very first line of my reply:"No, YouTube is NOT free TO US. The cost is hidden from us, that doesn't mean it is free."

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 04:56:04 am
content: Frankly, if the entire Youtube goes to Hell, i would not give shit. It is not that essential as some people here tell me.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 08:27:51 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 26, 2020, 04:40:00 pmI'm half with you on this.I recently got a 3D printer, watching a recommended YouTube vid on how to assemble it, helped a lot, and I really can't understand how people down vote such helpful vids (then again I've read 1 star amazon reviews where their comments are things like "bought wrong product/size). There are a lot of very useful YouTube vids out thereBut there are some youtube vids where the title bares little resemblance to the content, or you've got loud thumping music and/or some guy acting like he's a world famous comedian etc when in fact he's not funny, he's nauseating . Only yesterday I was searching for info about something in particular, found what looked like the perfect vid, he waffled on for about 20 mins telling me what could have been written in about 10 lines of text, and his solution wasn't what his title suggested. His video rightly imo had down votes and a ton of comments complaining (although I never downvote anything), Had I not been watching on my TV, I could have saved 20 mins of my time by reading the comments and knowing he was talking rubbish.While I understand when you say there's people that want you to be their personal tutor or give the code you have written, there's also many YouTubers out there whose videos are copies of other YouTubers (and in some cases the people copying others have many more followers). But there are youtubers who make their vids simply to help others, youtubers that have a passion for whatever, youtubers not trying to make big names for themselves or not trying to make money from the platform. Often these people are more than happy to help others in the comment sections (but I do know what you mean about people putting zero effort into things and demanding you do it for them)I can't draw to save my life, if I did a drawing, most 3 year olds can do better, recently we were watching portrait artist of the year (UK) and both I and my wife sometimes wondered what the judges were thinking, or how particular artists made it that far. All of them can paint 100000000 times better than we ever could, that doesn't mean I cant look at another adults painting and think it's absolutely crap (12 artists drawing people, one of them looking nothing liker the person). Same as a pottery program along similar lines. When one of the contestants result looks nothing like what they were asked to make, just because they are good at their craft while I wouldn't have a clue where to even begin, doesn't' mean I cant see they are obviously going to be the ones getting chucked out that round as what they produced was crap.In other words, just because I can't do something better (or even at all) doesn't mean I can't have a valid opinion of what I think something looks like/works like etc etc etc.I don't make YouTube vids, last thing I would ever want is my face on TV or YouTube, doesn't interest me in the slightest. I see a ton of very very useful and helpful youtube vids, I also see a ton of vids where the watcher would need to be on acid to even get through it. If someone wants to enter the world of youtube, doesn't matter how hard it is, doesn't matter how much time they take, if they make a 20 min vid that's almost impossible to watch due to the thumping 'not my taste' music in the background, or they don't know what they are talking about, or they take 30 mins to say what can be said in 2 mins, then a viewer has every right to tell them what they think regardless of whether the viewer could do any better themselves. Often comments save me the bother of watching certain ones as the comments show clearly the vid isn't going to answer the question it claims to answer.My (adult) son was having problems with his PC overheating and I suggested he apply new thermal paste as a starting point. I sent him a link to a YouTube vid that showed how to remove his exact fan etc, really really well. But I also said in big letters "do not apply the paste as he has done as he's done it completely wrong" (he spread it on about 4mm thick like most of us would put jam/jelly on bread), and of course the comments were a mixed bunch, many saying it's the best instructions they've seen for removing their fans, while others saying you should never put thermal paste on like he has done etc.If somethings is totally useless, whether it's being given away totally free or whether it costs £10,000, people have the right to let others know they are wasting their time using/viewing it.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 10:07:51 am
content: Quote from: Bud on May 27, 2020, 04:56:04 amI wouldn't be surprised if much of the small time tech youtube world goes to hell in the not-so-distant-future. It's clear that the vast majority of humanity just wants free entertainment. Only a microscopically tiny minority is actually interested in tech and learning. And even then they want it packaged in an entertaining way. Cuz learning gives people a headacheThey want to become experts in a quick 4 minute video.And I think as people get more and more sensitive to being offended by even the slightest negativity, the already tight restrictions on youtube creators will get worse. And at some point (and I think we're almost there) anyone who's not getting some very serious income from youtube is going to shut down. Which will mean that youtube will become only for music videos (which is already the #1 draw to youtube across the board) and women's makeup and cats playing piano. The folks who do tech for a hobby will figure it's no longer worth it. Everyone wants flashy, perfectly edited videos by a team of professionals, and anyone who can't give that will fade away. It happens all the time to small tech youtubers.BTW, for those who haven't seen the requirements that creators have, you might take a look. Prior to posting a video you need to answer a bunch of questions where you verify that a whole list of possibly offensive things are not in your video. And since what people find "offensive" is different for each of the billions of people on this planet, it's somewhat ridiculous. And now you're even liable for huge fines if your guess on what constitutes offensive is wrong. But it will only get worse.Personally, I'm a visual learner. And I love videos as a learning tool. And I always learn something in just about every video I watch. Or I get an idea to investigate something I hadn't thought of before. I love it. But I'm finding it's tougher and tougher to find videos where the creator hasn't buckled to the majority who just want 4 minutes of entertainment.As a matter of fact, I fully expect to see a video at some point where the creator is talking some tech stuff, and in the background he places his cat playing piano.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 10:12:18 am
content: Quote from: Bud on May 27, 2020, 04:56:04 amSeriously?https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_L._Jones_(video_blogger)

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 11:00:29 am
content: The whole issue of people having a "right" to comment on stuff like youtube videos I find kinda funny.Imagine you're walking down the street and someone comes up to you and says "Couldn't you find something nicer to wear? That looks like crap". Or you spend weeks/months building a cool RC airplane from scratch and bring it to a club to fly it with a bunch of other RC'ers, and someone tells you "Are you freakin' kidding?? That's not realistic at all. That's just crap".Nobody asked for your input. And I hate to break it to you, but nobody cares about your opinion, or my opinion, or anyone else's opinion. If someone wants to design their videos so that they appeal to certain viewers, and they ASK for your opinion, then fine.Just like in tech forums. Opinions are everywhere, but are often irrelevant.So yeah, next time you write a negative comment or do the ridiculous downvoting, imagine it's no different from coming up to the same guy on the street and, in front of his family, telling him he's an a-hole. But in this case you're doing it in front of the world of other viewers as well as his family and friends.Good on ya'.

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 11:53:35 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 27, 2020, 11:00:29 amI do not agree with that Argument.You have a right in real life to do that and actually such things happen quite often. As example imagine it were not allowed to or people would not tell someone is a jackass when he parks his Car occupying 2 slots.Most people just do not like to bother strangers or say negative things to people they know. Conflict drains energy... The difference is that doing that behind a screen removes seeing one another face to face and people feel Anonymous -> removing the shame in doing so completely.What I absolutely do not get is why people just are not able to Ignore toxic/bad comments and recognize valid criticism/material of discussion(that is hard) and MOVE ON. Man,don'tfeed the troll it is that easy... and why is there always this desire to destroy the other Party or have collective punishment. Jeez.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 12:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 27, 2020, 11:00:29 amExcept it's completely different and incomparable.If I'm walking down the street minding my own business and someone tells me that what I'm wearing looks crap, that is one thing.If I end up on TV or youtube, that's a completely different situation. You cant have both fame and anonymity. No matter how small the fame.I've posted probably 5 or 6 under 2 min YouTube clips in my time showing problems I'm having with something, a problem with my keybed on a synth springs to mind. Each time instantly showing the problem, no talking, no vid of me. And I posted links to the vid in the relevant forums.I couldn't give a dam if someone wants to down vote it, I couldn't give a toss if someone want's to write stupid comments. I didn't post them, to try and make myself feel good.But when someone does a youtube vid, starts off by showing themselves thinking they are cool (when they usually aren't), asks us to like their vid etc etc etc (and most tell you to post any comments down bellow etc), then you can't complain when people post comments.If I want to find out how something works, and there's 30+ YouTube vids, glancing at the comments and seeing 10+ people complain about the annoyingly loud music, or seeing 10+ people saying that the author could have said everything in 2 mins instead of 20, they are very very valuable comments in my opinion. It doesn't matter whether the poster asked for such comments, by reading such comments, I know not to waste my time watching that vid. Therefore I do care about those comments, and many other people care too. It's by reading such comments, we know not to waste our time.I do understand there are a group of people that seem to lack brain cells, people that down vote for ridiculous things, people that make the stupidest of comments. But likewise comments often open debate, comments can lead to interesting discussion. Comments can (and I've seen this often in this type of forum) lead to the original author changing or adding something to their original post, saying xyz pointed out in the comments that it does do abc, all you have to do is......What you seem to be implying is you want to be able to post a youtube vid, you are happy to have positive comments or upvotes, but anything else is uncalled for and out of order. Life on youtube simply doesn't work that way.I hate facebook. I am on it, have about 20 friends from where I grew up, just to keep tabs on my old mates, not interested in the rest. But a few month ago I joined a few local buy/sell groups. When the lockdown in the UK started, people were posting on those groups that if any elderly person wants shopping done etc, just leave a whatever in their window, or feel free to contact xyz. I politely pointed out that while I commend such helpful people, they are infact putting the elderly at risk, there will be people who offer to do their shopping who will simply steal their money etc.I got called all the names under the sun (including c word) and got told I'm the sort of scum that emptied the shelves of toilet paper etc etc etc etc. Nothing rude in what I originally said, I was just trying to prevent the elderly being scammed (wife has a lot of elderly clients and people are always trying to scam them) . What I said has been proven to be totally true as that's exactly what happened (and to me, it was obviously going to happen) .Did their stupid vile comments annoy me, yes they did. Did part of me feel like trying to justify myself to them, trying to show I wasn't like they thought I was, yes part of me did (it's human nature, some people can ignore criticism, others, even if they don't want it to, find criticism grating away at them to differing levels). Did I bother to do that though, no I didn't, I simply left all the local buy and sell groups and am back to just my friends and a few lathe, electronics, and 3d printer groups.People are always going to spout crap when they are anonymously sitting behind their keyboards, they aren't worth arguing with. Even though I know it's stupid to let them annoy me, they still did, hence I left those groups. But I do think that's different to warning fellow viewers that the post has a ton of loud background music or takes ages to get a simple point across.Sure people can post their vids in what ever style they want. But unless they let us know in advance their vids are say aimed at people into both electronics and loud death metal music, then they shouldnt be surprised when numerous people point this out in the comments.And as I said on my previous comment, the vid I sent my son had the completely wrong way of applying thermal paste on. There's thousands of vids that show different ways of applying thermal paste, a pea sized blob, an X, even (although I dislike this method) spreading a tiny amount over the CPU with an old credit card. But none of them say plaster the cpu with about 4 mm of paste. The author didn't ask for comments, but I'm glad others took the time to tell people he had put on far far far too much thermal paste, as it saved me the bother of commenting. However, it was one of the best videos I've seen showing how to get off the stock intel fan and put it back on again. Nobody ask for the comments from these guys, but I do care and I'm glad they pointed out he was applying the paste completely wrong.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 12:51:17 pm
content: Some, (a lot!), of the posts here, are the epitome of exactly what the O.P. asked about!!YES, people can 'Google' a lot of things, but it's like someone treating 'Google' as a Doctor for medical probs!A 'FORUM' is supposed to be more one-on-one, and getting more into individual specifics though.YES, there are people in any Forum who ask seemingly silly questions, and DEMAND answers.However, there is always an equal amount of 'technical' people who have elevated themselves totheir 'Ivory-Towers', and almost seem to gain enjoyment out of ridiculing & belittling some people?A few pages back, take 'eti' for example! NOTHING positive said... delusions of Grandeur... relishingthe put down of others thoughts, beliefs, the 'system', and anything else he can ever think of!!!It's no wonder 'some' people a bit more 'reserved', slink back into their shell !! and ask no more!It's usually OBVIOUS when someone is new, or a beginner... and it quickly becomes obvious too whoare the typical members who understand that, treat them with respect, and guide them.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 01:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on May 27, 2020, 12:51:17 pmI think there has to be some sort of balance.I was a systems manager in a UNIX environment in the mid 90s, and ended up with a lot of both experience and 'instinct' on where to go to find an answer to a problem.Roll on 10 years and I was heavily into Linux and active in a few Linux forums.Often people would ask what to me was a very very simple thing, BUT it's only simple for me due to my years of experience. Others would tell them things like "there are 'man' pages you know" or "use the search button" .The thing with those sorts of thing is that it's fine to use the 'man' pages if you know what command you want to use (and understand the 'man' pages description), it's fine to search if you know the exact term you are searching for, but most newcomers don't know that.Having post after post pointing out the search button (or linking to google) is simply unwelcoming and drives people away.I've asked some stupidly simple questions in my short time with this forum, I don't regret any of them.Then there's the other sort, which do annoy me. One of the facebook groups I currently belong to (though likely not for long) is "Electrical and Electronics technology Learning Group"Some of the posts there simply amaze me. here are a few examples of recent questionsOr posts in say an Arduino group asking if someone can write the entire code to make a robot etc etc etcPosts where the person has zero intention of learning, or a 1 sec google of PCB will give you the answer, far far quicker than making a huge graphic.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 01:15:16 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on May 27, 2020, 10:12:18 amSo what? I am old enough to remember life without Youtube. There was nothing wrong with it.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 01:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on May 26, 2020, 10:52:00 pmThose are predicates that can be attributed by anyone to everyone. All it needs is the feeling of superiority. So ... we close the forum because "you should read that up by yourself" is the proper answer to all questions? Of course not, because referring literature, leading to the proper search terms, sources and such is also an important part of conversation. To understand that all you need to remember is that it took you time, effort of teachers/instructors, the need to solve problems to learn things too. Btw.: self-proclaimed experts that bemoan lack of quality in the question usually do not drive such efforts, their effort consists of ridicule, which effectively makes them the toxic trolls, not the newbies.A translated german proverb is "no master ever fell from the skies" (came from nowhere into existence), which for some reason seems to be the expectation here.I mean such movements are nothing new, i only wait until someone proposes the super-secret insider club/owner of x-y-z club as the solution to all these problems.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 02:22:49 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on May 27, 2020, 01:23:08 pmI know what you are saying... but as a Musician & a lover of certain 'Verse'... you brought back memorieswith your"no master ever fell from the skies"line!!...It's to do with (our) feelings about sharing/passing-on knowledge musically, but in all other aspects too!..."May those who soar in the sky,Walk, back down the mountain,& teach those with leadened feet to Fly! "What a beautiful phrase!!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 02:54:55 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 27, 2020, 11:00:29 amWell. I do not entirely disagree with you there. Sure, some people will tell you (and they did) that it's different, because by publishing videos on Youtube, you're becoming like a public personality or something, and then you can't complain about getting comments. In other words, by publishing, you are expected to get comments, whether you want them or not.I think there's a way around that though. You can disable comments for any of your Youtube videos, can't you? If you don't want comments, just disable comments. Some viewers may feel "offended" by that, but if you're not looking to get a lot of viewers, who cares. OTOH, if you want a lot of viewers (possibly to make money), then you'll have to accept comments.If you only want to share stuff but not get any comment, you can do so by hosting your content on your own website or something. Text or videos. And don't include any comment functionality, or any way people can otherwise contact you.But do most people feel like they are entitled to comment on anything just because they can? Yes. Very true. Does that add tremendous value? Not necessarily. I do think this minimal "interactivity" is what keeps people interested though. Remove that, and I guess many would stop watching/reading. People love to be able to express themselves, at least as much as consuming content.Point is - this is part of what makes Youtube (and otherwise social networks) attractive IMHO, so you pretty much have to deal with it - or go see elsewhere.

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 03:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 27, 2020, 02:53:27 pmMaybe it is a cultural difference but this Thread so far is the furthest from a heated debate until you joined in with that nonsense. However having had the honor reading previous posts of yours on life and how to live it before I fear it is more due to your bitter personality.Or Maybe I underestimate how much to a CCP Drone any disagreement between adults must seem like a heated Debate.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 04:10:01 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 27, 2020, 11:00:29 amThat actually happened to an RC enthusiast acquaintance of mine.He built one of those WW2 German fighters....not the ubiquitous ME109 or FW190, even myself can recognize those, but something a little more obscure.To my un-educated eyes, the plane looked marvelous.But when he took it to an RC meet specializing in WW2 planes, he actually got sh!t because a pair of decals were not correct for that particular airplane.Something along the lines of: "Even a troglodyte knows that these planes were only used on the Eastern front prior to the Battle of Stalingrad, and your decals are of planes that fought exclusively during the London Blitz."

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:00:09 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 27, 2020, 10:07:51 amErr, no, how so exactly would that happen?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:07:04 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 25, 2020, 11:15:01 pmSo the entire set of MIT lectures available on Youtube, not to mention the countless other tutorial videos on Youtube don't teach you anything? Theexact same lecturesthat get you an engineering degree from MIT are useless?Really?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:10:47 am
content: Quote from: eti on May 26, 2020, 12:07:22 amJust say the word and I'll happily lock your account so you won't accidentally come here again and subject yourself to all of us here

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:12:28 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 26, 2020, 03:49:11 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:19:59 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 26, 2020, 05:07:08 pmI have no idea who Keith Appleton is, but AvE is hardly an example of good concise information. Sure he really knows his stuff, and thereisa ton of great stuff in the videos, but his videos are a classic example ofinfotainment, and very verbose one at that, the very thing you seen to be complaining about.If you think people mostly watch AvE for the information, you are kidding yourself, they watch for the entertainment, as people watch most Youtubers for. This is the reason why people watch a certain content creator, they continue to watch it primarily for theperson, not primarily for theinformation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:24:26 am
content: Quote from: Someone on May 26, 2020, 10:52:00 pmYoutube existed for 6-7 years before anyone really made a cent from it. No shortage of creators then, in fact the entire platform was build by these creators earning nothing.Creators like me started because we wanted to share information and make a name for themselves doing so. For me personally, it was an extension of doing the same thing in print form with my magazine project articles and then my web site.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:42:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 05:19:59 amEh.. not everyone but im weird and go for channels like TSP / Altium content with multi hour long discussions and breakdowns in the more conference style formatThe other half is made up of channels with indonesian men digging in the dirt and making mini houses and if you havent seen them.. well you shouldJust wish it was easier to hit the solid channels that have more teaching content to them.. if you dont know what to look for half the time you would never find them but they do exist and well worth watching a few times.. i actually like how Altium posted a bunch of their Altium Live sessions.. makes it super easy to rewatch / take notes / etcI doubt Microchip does Masters this year with the choas going on in the states.. I hope they do something similar to what Altium already started doing for their conference

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 06:15:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 05:07:04 amI can watch Mario Andretti videos on race car driving and will that make me "learn" to be a great driver?I can watch videos on climbing Mt. Everest and will that make me "learn" to be a great climber?Watching MIT/Youtube/TED talks and lectures etc., soaking up content - it's not the learning process. Giving someone answers, doing all the thinking and work for them- does not teach. This is just my opinion. The homework, the thinking, the lab assignments, are where and when the learning takes place.I ripped apart a computing science instructor in class, for pissing around with pointers in C for two weeks. Such a waste of time. I demanded a refund for the course tuition fee. His response to me? "The purpose of university is not to teach you anything, the purpose of university to show you how to learn"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 06:49:50 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 28, 2020, 06:15:31 amSure, but you mad the specific claim that "TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything". The problem with making general statements like that is that you only have the find one example to prove you wrong.Let me give you a better example. Let's say you want to learn how to tie a knot, or fold a paper airplane, or some other such manual dexterity thing like say doing a stakeboard trick. What is better, a textbook instruction with 2D diagrams, or someone physically spending a minute actually showing you "live"?You can guarantee there are countless example that will demonstrably prove you wrong.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 06:54:11 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 28, 2020, 06:15:31 amHe's not wrong. Much of the specifics you learn in college will be obsolete by the time you're 10 years into your career, you may well find yourself in a job that your degree doesn't even apply to, but having been through the process you'll be equipped with the ability to learn what you need as you go along.Watching a video of race car driving or mountain climbing can teach you the basics, it gives you the information you need, then the rest of the process is using that information to practice actually doing it.It sounds like you're a bit impatient and want to just skip the information and cut to the chase, maybe that works for you but in most cases it leads to glaring gaps in one's knowledge. So yeah, you're not going to become a champion race driver by watching a bunch of videos, but you're not likely to do so by just jumping into a race car and hitting the track either. This is why nearly any training consists of study followed by hands on activities.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 07:04:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 06:49:50 amI can say with certainty that youtube has been a lifesaver for my mom. Normally I'm her IT guy, handyman, car mechanic, etc, she's intelligent but completely helpless with technology. I live close by so any time something isn't working she calls me and usually I drop by and take care of it. Now due to the Covid quarantine I have limited my visits to emergencies like when her refrigerator crapped out where I couldn't possibly have talked her through diagnosing the failed starter on the compressor however I've been really impressed at the other things she has managed on her own. By watching youtube videos she has been able to figure out how to fix all sorts of little stuff, set up video conferencing to continue tutoring sessions with her students, set up an ipad someone gave her and get it connected to the WiFi, get the printer going when it stopped responding, install and configure things on her Ubuntu laptop, all sorts of stuff that normally would have meant a house call she has figured out on her own after watching youtube videos.I've also found youtube invaluable on numerous occasions myself, particularly when I've been working on my car and am not sure how to get something apart, I really hate it when I find the hidden clip or screw by breaking it off when there's a simple procedure that takes just a few minutes to see in a video. It has also been handy for seeing carpentry techniques and other home repair tips and tricks, I'm capable of figuring out most of that stuff on my own but it sure is nice to have access to countless videos demonstrating how the pros do it. For a lot of things I'd rather read a set of instructions but there are many situations where a 5 minute video showing someone actually doing something can make something clearer than thousands of words.Then there's the eevblog videos that got me to this forum in the first place, I learned all sorts of stuff from those. Occasionally it was something new, often it was something I was familiar with but not in depth and I walked away with a much deeper and more clear understanding of the subject.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 07:39:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 28, 2020, 07:04:59 amAnother example from one of my videos, my most popular one, the opamps basics video, 50min long.The number of people who have contacted me thanking me for the video and how they now understand opamps better than any teacher or textbook ever taught them has been incalculable.Sure, it's not every for everyone, but for countless people (possibly 1M+ people) it's been what they wanted and they learned something.Everyone learns differently, and whether it was my approach and video style, or a combination of things, what I'm pretty certain of is that it would have been more effective than the exact same material presented in a boring PDF. Don't underestimate the role of the enthusiasm of the host etc when presenting information. This is as true on Youtube as it was in the days of live public lectures.For many people the key to learning is to be engaged by someone enthusiastic about it and essentially presenting it in an entertaining style.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 07:53:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 05:24:26 amI've been around long enough to know that, and was there in the days of easy monetisation. Youtube aggressively built a monopoly by attracting the best content away from competing platforms with a simply better deal. Now with little competition the rates for content are too low to support building an income around it. Why that changed is multifaceted and not any single force.You've shared quite some detail on the economics for yourself, and why other platforms don't work.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 08:01:38 am
content: Quote from: Someone on May 28, 2020, 07:53:13 amErr, no, they didn't. They created anentirely new platformwhere you couldBroadcast Yourself.Most creators didn't come from "competing platforms", they simply saw a cool new way to express yourself so they decided to do it for fun. Remember, all the early Youtubers didn't earn a cent, anddidn't even knowthere was a future making money on the platform, they just did it for fun.There wasneverany competition for Youtube.You are completely wrong on the monetisation. Except for certain demographics like political or social justice type channels, and kids channels, revenue has never dropped. In fact you used to have to wait to beinvitedinto the partner program to earn money, now it's instant from day one.The reason for as you say "rates for content are too low to support building an income around it." is because of the massive expansion of platform itself and the number of people joining.I've done a video on this and how my channel has grown continuously for a decade, non-stop, yet my channel ranking hasdroppedbecause of natural platform expansion.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 08:02:02 am
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on May 27, 2020, 01:23:08 pmWhen the value to experienced people sharing interesting knowledge is gone, they leave too. So you're left with just the low rent material easily answerable with some basic research. Different people will value their time differently, at some point wading through the constant flow of content no longer becomes worth the effort. As experienced people leave its a positive feedback that increases the noise over time if not managed.There are boards I avoid on this forum, some that are outside my area of interests/knowledge, but some that are full of inane and repetitive questions.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 08:33:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 08:01:38 amYou come with it from your (quite unusual) perspective, and plainly incorrect claims. Right now youtube is not allowing monetising of every account right off the bat:These things are constantly in flux and the rules change all the time.Payment rates are all over the place, your experiences are not typical of most content producers. Even if you maintained CPM rates that isn't true of others (or new entrants, or the majority). As an established and volume content supplier you are seeing quite different mechanisms than "regular" smaller channels.There were (and still are) many different video platforms with a range of different monetisation methods, youtube was never the only choice. There has been continuous competition of those platforms to retain content producers.Lols for putting up a video response.... right back to the discussion of trying to push chunks of off topic content rather than taking the time to present the relevant bit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 09:11:20 am
content: Quote from: Someone on May 28, 2020, 08:33:14 amForgot about that, that's very recent, but the threshold is still very low,waylower than it used to 7+ years back when itwasn't automatic, you had to beinvited.QuoteThat's always been the case, nothing has changed.QuoteNo, I'm not. Smaller content producers making the same content can expect similar CPM rates to me. It's not profitable, not because of what you claim, that monetisation has dropped, it's because of what I said that the market and competition is vastly bigger now, and that's not Youtube's fault, it's natural growth.QuoteNo, there hasn't for all practical purposes Youtube have retained a 99% monopoly since they started.That has changed in the last couple of years with Twitch for live streaming.I'm done discussing this.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 09:40:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 09:11:20 amPure hyperbole, 3rd party firms put youtube around the 70% share range (when excluding adult content). For a language neutral basis that share may be even lower.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 09:55:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 07:39:26 am+1 for this... thanks Dave... this or one like it was how i found you as well like a decade ago lolI like your videos.. easy refresher content and yeah that opamps video is probly the best explanation of them i've ever seen.. I still send people to go watch it to this day

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 10:03:43 am
content: Quote from: Someone on May 28, 2020, 08:33:14 amNot wrong about that... this actually goes back further than this, my own company got bought by doubleclick which then became google adsense when google bought them.. I've had the pleasure to watch monetization of the internet from the get go and google has been all over the place. Thing is they adjust rapidly depending on market conditions.. no more no less and thats how they survive / dominate

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 10:16:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 05:00:09 amCOPPA

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 01:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on May 28, 2020, 10:16:54 amForgot about that, but it's essentially going to be a nothing-burger. Not something an individual creator has to worry about in practice in terms of a fines. And certainly not anyone who's not a US citizen.What it has destroyed entire genres of content creation like kids content.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 06:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 07:39:26 amI’ve learnt a ton of stuff from your vids (and a few other people’s) Even watching your vids that are too advanced for me, the way you present things are very easy on the eye and very watchable, and more than once as I’ve learnt something else, I’ve rewatched a vid that was too advanced , and it’s all clicked into place.I was a bit of an idiot at school (70s and 80s), in that I was more interested in messing around than learning. Algebra is one area I didn’t bother studying, and YouTube has been brilliant in teaching me what I missed.Sure there’s a ton of crap on YouTube but there’s also a ton of very very useful educational content.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 12:40:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 05:19:59 amMy entire point is that trying to convey too much information via a video is futile! The bulk should be in some random-access medium, and the few key points, insights, experiences, or other stuff that maybe gets lost in the sea in the random-access medium, highlighted in a video.Putting all the necessary points into a video makes for a bad video. Good videos are stories, logs, key insights, et cetera.I like your videos. You yourself very often mention"but that's for another time"because you are fully aware of how little complex, dense information you can put in a video and still keep it watchable. You often highlight the things people get wrong, because they do not truly understand the subject. That is excellent, and your videos are important.Keith Appleton runs mainsteam.co.uk, and makes videos about miniature steam engines, typically less than ten minutes long. He doesn't curse, but grumbles about idiotic comments and keeps a (plastic) skeleton in his acid bath (actually just descaler). He calls his videos tutorials, but they are closer to something like examples and highlights, that are useful for other hobbyists learning machining or making miniature steam engineson their own. If you look for his videos for machining tutorials, you'll be mislead, because as he himself says, he is a musician with a calibrated eye, not an engineer. But for working with or machining miniature steam engines, they contain practical experience that you just can't read from a book. It is like shop talk with a seasoned greybeard.What I call a tutorial is a complete package of information encapsulating the basics of some subject.I seriously dislike the idea of pointing people to only Youtube videos for tutorials, because all the necessary information is not there.As I've mentioned, there is a lot of videos thatsupportthose learning some thing, subject or art. But as the sole (or even main) source of information, they are insufficient. If you put all relevant and necessary information in it, it will be dull and/or too long. Humans cannot acquire new knowledge very efficiently that way.The reason I keepis not that I want the final word on this. It is because the amount of information available to us is orders of magnitude larger than any human can acquire in their lifetime, and it is increasingly important to help others learnefficientlyandsufficiently, instead of just enough to fake it. Pointing others to a good Youtube video explaining the typical misconceptions or traps for young players is excellent, but such videos alone do not suffice as the key source of information.The real trap here is related to the Dunning-Kruger effect: when you watch those videos where the "uninteresting details" and background information are omitted, one easily starts to believe theyknowthe subject.In the past before the Internet, people were more aware of the difference between "book knowledge" and "practical knowledge". (Though, a lot of people believed that if they read a book on something, they knew that subject.) Nowadays, "TV knowledge" is even worse, and very, very common. People see something on TV or Youtube, and they believe they know the subject. Here in Finland, you don't have Miranda rights, or a right to a phone call when arrested, yet those are exactly what the crimiyoungsters always shout about, because they've seen it on TV so it must be true... I'd hate a version of that to happen with technical information and Youtube too.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 02:10:31 am
content: I still don't think much of youtube beyond entertainment.youtube doesn't vet or check credentials, so you have tons of non-qualified people giving instructions and explanations. Medical advice, unsafe advice etc.If video educating truly was effective, it would obsolete the classroom and lectures. We'll see this fall, as there may be no school this september due to coronavirus. Imagine paying to go to university but you're at home watching lectures. If you had more money, you could buy the Harvard or Princeton engineering lectures and be really smart. Uni's are worried about enrollment this fall session because people want to go to school and not watch TV.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 05:02:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 28, 2020, 07:39:26 amThat's one in particular that comes to mind. I'd used op-amps successfully for years before seeing that video, but everything was a lot clearer afterward.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 05:12:29 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 29, 2020, 02:10:31 amBullshit. Cars are effective for transportation but they have not obsoleted bicycles or buses. Apartments are perfectly suitable for living in but they have not obsoleted houses.The fact that something is not a 100% be-all replacement for something doesn't mean it's not effective or lacks value. Getting a complete education from nothing but youtube videos is likely to be challenging under the most ideal of circumstances, but that doesn't mean they are not an effective teaching medium.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 05:20:23 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 29, 2020, 12:40:18 amYou can't just make an absolute claim that a "good" educational video is blah blah. People learn in different ways.Just like there is no one perfect electronics text book, what works for one person does not work for another. Videos are no different.QuoteThere is a way to help fix that, make your own content. Send us a link when you have your first video up. Seriously.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 01:58:54 pm
content: Quote from: SerieZ on May 27, 2020, 03:13:48 pmWhat the hell happened since my obviously trouble instigating but loving mantra, about...Love & Sharing knowledgeThere seems to be a big 'gap' with a bunch of responses?Oh, yes.. I think I remember now!!I'm only online here every 3 or 4 days, so I seem to miss a lot, but it doesn't take Einstein to read betweenthe proverbial lines!!'BlueSkull' & 'eti' don;t LOVE me!!!!!! Oh... Boo hoo...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 02:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 26, 2020, 08:19:07 pmYou said it yourself; every human learns in a slightly different way. However, by carefully editing my post you left out the part where I highlight my biggest concern: the generalization of your argument.Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 26, 2020, 08:19:07 pmGeneralizations. Tutorials cater to audiences with varying degrees of depth - not everyone cares or needs to cover the fundamentals of something but instead need to solve a very specific and narrow problem.Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 26, 2020, 08:19:07 pmDon't put words in my mouth.Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 26, 2020, 08:19:07 pmAnd yet you make the case they have their place and are not useless. The goalposts are quite mobile in your argument.Quote from: EEVblog on May 29, 2020, 05:20:23 amExactly. The generalization is the problem.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 05:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 29, 2020, 05:20:23 amIdidn't!A good video can be better than a lecture on the subject. At best, they can be as good as talking one-on-one with an expert on the subject.Your opamp video is one of these (among the best examples). I have a written post aboutthe very basics of perspective projectionthat would work much better as a video, and would only be a minute or two, tops. So I'm definitely not saying that educational videos are blah blah, I'm just saying that videos alone do not suffice for us humans to truly learn. If one relies on videos (or in-person lectures, just as equally), worst case, we get the impression that we do, while we don't.Let's say that your claim is that videos suffice for learning stuff. If you were right, schools and colleges and universities would be wasting untold amounts of money in books and exercise sessions.I disagree. I believe the vids could replace the parts where the teachers read from their own notes in front of people, definitely! but not the background information nor the practical exercises. (The best lectures I've sat in, have been where the lecturer makes sure the key concepts are correctly understood, and people have a working intuitive grasp of the matter, and even point out a few typical misunderstandings people can have – and get asked and answers good questions about the topic. So very much like your opamp video, and many other good Youtube lessons.) For Youtube videos, I think we can safely assume people will do the practical stuff on their own. It is the importance of background information and reliable references that I absolutely hate to see being ignored, because it leads to the false sense of "I know this stuff" when you really don't.If you look at that text of mine about perspective projection, you'll see that most of it is actually references to related key information; I wouldn't include those in the same video. One could make a nice video lecture about unit quaternions (also known as versors), and how they can be used instead of Euler angles or Tait-Bryan angles; and another how you can use them in e.g. space simulation – each thruster would correspond 1:1 to a versor. Interesting stuff! But what about the basic linear algebra needed – matrix-matrix multiplication, matrix-vector multiplication, vector dot product, and vector cross product? Hamilton product? Correspondences between versors and rotation matrices? I guess you could make a series of video lectures from those, too.But, how would you tie them all together? Would you make a video that tells you what other videos to watch, or leave it for people to discover for themselves? Or would you have playlists for suggested viewing for each topic? You'd soon have more playlists than videos.Please do not confuse me with those who don't think the videos have educational value; I say they have, just as much as in-person lecturers or poster sessions or similar. And that's definitely not blah-blah.In the first thread we discussed this, I objected to "go find tutorials about this on Youtube". That doesn't work for two reasons: one is that a newbie cannot tell good videos from the bad – view count or popularity isn't a reliable measure, because most people are stupid and wrong. My main point in that thread was that because people have different knowledge levels, you cannot fully describe the basics of an entire subject – even something as simple as how to 3D print "right", avoiding typical problems – in videos; you need some random-access background or reference information to go base the video on.(As a counterexample, Myfordboy has a couple of good videos about fixing issues with e.g. Creality Ender 3. But that's not a tutorial, that's a lesson or session or whatchamacallit on fixing issues with the Creality Ender 3 3D printer. The difference may feel like nitpicking, but think of yourself as the newbie on the receiving end: the difference is huge.)You asked me to do a better video. I can't, because there is nothing wrong in your videos; they're very good, some absolutely excellent. That's never been in question with me. (And as to the topic of this thread, I mentioned AvE and KeithAppleton as "old, cranky scrooges" who make good, useful videos one can learn from – but not something I'd call "tutorials".)What would work even better,or suffice for tutorials and deeper learning, would be if something like The Art of Electronics was published on-line, with relevant chapters and sections linking to your videos, and your videos linking back to the text. So, not me making new videos, but you teaming up with Paul and Winfield, or something like that. See?The weakest point in my argument, I think, is that people should be expected to find that background and reference information on their own. My defense to that is that I see them fail to do that in real life, either from Dunning-Kruger (they not realizing they need to), laziness, or not being able to tell reliable information from hogwash. I've seen first hand at StackOverflow and StackExchange that even in narrow fields, popularity or view count is no measure of reliability or correctness.I do realize this entire argument is mostly due to my failure to properly express the problem I see occurring. Some may feel it is irrelevant, but I am seeing it creep in in real life. The key "sign" I've noticed is odd use of technical jargon; in electronics, the equivalent would be if somebody says "voltage flows ...". And I know I write too much, but I don't know how to do better. Sorry.Also, I could be wrong. If you or anybody else know I'm wrong, I would really appreciate if you'll tell meexactly how.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 07:08:50 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 29, 2020, 05:09:41 pmNo one is arguing that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 07:16:41 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 29, 2020, 05:09:41 pmYou said, and I quote:QuoteYou are demonstrably wrong.QuoteThe exact same thing can be said for text books or text blogs. Just because say Floyd, or Art of Electronics are popular does NOT automatically make then the right text for you.Same for my opamp videos, many will no doubt find it crap and much prefer say Great Scott's opamp video, or they might prefer the MIT lecture, or one of countless of others.What is "good" for one person, may not work for another person, and vice-versa, and this also spreads across media types just as much as different styles within one media type.QuoteNo, your weakest point is trying to argue a point no one else is talking about. No one is saying videos are the be-all-end-all replacement for anything else.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 01:26:53 pm
content: ... And this last page has 'what' to do with "Cranky Old Scrooges" ??Except tohighlightwhat the O.P. was initially talking about !!Maybe if I say...Live & let live, orDo unto Others, orHelp those in Need, orJust do our best, orLove thy Neighbour...Surely that will trigger another DEFCON-2, resulting in'deletion'... Sigh...It always depends on the 'individual' one seems to offend, or has the bigger 'head'.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 08:09:50 pm
content: One major difference is that text is easily edited. (I know I'll get flack for this; I edit 99% of my posts). Videos can be edited and reuploaded, but that's a lot of work and is often impractical. A video is a finished product unto itself. Sometimes the uploader will add some corrections in the description, I suppose. Sometimes they issue followup vids to make amends. Sometimes people just leave a bunch of BS on the net, because they never realize it or they simlpy don't care that they're misleading newbs. They are putting inordinate amount of care into the number of views and likes beyond accuracy and correctness of the content. Why would you take that down and put up a new version, when YT algorithm has made the original video a huge success, and replacing it with a more accurate video will be starting new with more competition? You wouldn't do that. In this case success leads to less clarification.Text websites/blogs are easily updated. Forums are great because a thread can just grow and be added upon. I love that necro threads happen, here. Vs on reddit, it's more like twitter; after so long, you can't post to an old thread. The signal:noise is an issue, but text can be easily scanned. Interpersonal BS can be ignored/avoided or simply tolerated for what it is. Marketing responses are often easy to spot (of course it's impossible to tell if a post is from a marketer or a victim of marketing "education.")

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 01:40:36 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on June 05, 2020, 08:09:50 pmThere is also the fact that lots of people have put effort into comments, and as a creator I hate to delete a video and reupload because you lose the comments.Very rarely had to do that though, if I goof up something so serious that warrants to pull the edit and edit then it's usually within 10's of minutes of uploading that the comments will starts pouring in pointing it out. In which case I'll sacrifice some comments to make the correction.