What "mains conditioner" actually do? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 12:40:15 pm
content: HiI see tales about "mains conditioner" for HiEnd audio?Is it myth or real impruvement? Is it simple filter or some magic gear?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 01:10:54 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on December 16, 2018, 12:40:15 pmWhat research have you done?What are your conditions/circumstances that make you ask the question?Indicating that would enable you to ask a better question, thus avoiding the problems illustrated inhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/good-questions-pique-our-interest-and-dont-waste-our-time-2/

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 01:21:36 pm
content: frankly, there is no need for anything more than generic, decent voltage regulation and filtering in high end audio power supplies.Good current capacity and very low (inaudible) ripple.Speculating here:Perhaps they are trying to eliminate all pops? (as in blip in power from a power cord being whacked) Since thats the same thing that would cause a PC to reboot, a PC power backup unit and/or solid power cords / good power cord placement would do that. (In my area, the power is very reliable)

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 01:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 16, 2018, 01:10:54 pmI google for itAnd answers was so strange

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 03:07:58 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on December 16, 2018, 01:54:13 pmSo, nothing of anysignificancethat is worth mentioning.Do have a look at the reference/link I gave. Until then I can't be bothered to try to help you. Maybe others will; good luck.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 03:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on December 16, 2018, 12:40:15 pmIn high end audio, mains conditioner means pretty much anything that can extract cash from suckers. Real mains conditioning is something city dwellers don't normally need, but people in rural areas with unstable mains might. Its about keeping the voltage stable. I've seen the mains voltage in some rural locations surge to spectacular levels that can blow the input circuitry of a lot of electronics.Other mains filtering, such as click and pop filtering, should happen inside the audio equipment. If the equipment can't cope with normal city mains, it isn't really high end.

author: Harvey17
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 07:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 16, 2018, 03:07:58 pmGotta love these - "I can't be bothered to reply, but I still need to tell the world that I can't be bothered to reply by replying"

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 11:08:25 pm
content: In short, just get a used rackmount UPS, replace the batteries (or use supercaps if you don't actually need power backup for more than a short glitch), and call it done.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2018, 11:28:01 pm
content: the so called audio goons basically take some concept that is only applicable to RF or similar and try to extrapolate it to give people the mistaken impression that it applies to audio.Here's what matters, in my opinion. Low distortion and low noise in an amplifier. Quiet power supply and good amplifier component choice and design.Adequate bandwidth. Adequate power to control the speakers, which also seems to me to demand a low voltage drop in the speaker wires. basically it means "use thicker wire". Ive always found thicker wire to sound substantially better than really thin wire for sound at any volume. *The speakers must be connected in phase*. That means they must work together and not against one another. Observe polarity.Those are the most important things.Proper speaker placement is really important. Having a room that has the proper balance of reflective and sound dampening materials is also important. (furniture or carpeting will do this)I have a decent, if fairly old (20 yrs plus) 50 watt per channel integrated preamp/amp/receiver. Ive had it for most of that time. I got a deal on it because one of the binding posts for speaker output terminals had broken off. An easy repair.It has exceptionally good sound. Including phono performance, its that old. No Av features at all. A quiet preamp, solid amp, and exceptional FM tuner with awesome capture ratio which translates to quiet FM in my fairly spectrum-crowded area.With really cheap but exceptionally value bookshelf speakers and a not properly matched subwoofer it sounds really good.In terms of value per dollar I think I would be hard put to improve much on it without spending a ridiculous amount of moneyon things that did deliver an audible improvement. Which do exist.(The speakers could be improved a lot but - to get really substantially better sound I would have to spend several hundred dollars. I would rather spend that money on something else.I do have an additional very old, huge (15 inch) speaker I've thought about adding as a subwoofer but its upstairs in the attic and its very heavy. It is a corner design and it dates back to the mono era. Its a historic relic. It still sounds great. If I had two of them I could have my own concert system. Its that efficient. But I don't, so one would do best as a subwoofer.So much of what we see in the audio world is fluff. People who don't know better are just being conned into it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:29:28 am
content: Those mains conditioners were useful for computer equipment back when it was expensive and power supplies had poor regulation. There's not much reason to use them anymore though unless you have particularly dirty power. If you have periods of sustained under or overvoltage then a constant voltage transformer is more help than a UPS. For audio it's quite pointless though, audio amplifiers are very good at rejecting supply variation, normally the power supplies in amplifiers is not even regulated because it doesn't have to be.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:54:50 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 17, 2018, 02:29:28 amThe problem is, many of these goons, went thru DIY pre-amp or amplifier circuit from a decent design, or even good design, but they sort of sloppily built the power supply part with crappy design and parts, and the most funny part is sometimes they used what those people called "audio grade for golden ears" bulk caps and etc for the bulk caps on the stepped down rectified mains, wishing it will do magic.At least here locally, the term "dirty electricity" was used oftenly when this kind of problem arise and put the blame on the mains line.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:59:46 am
content: Quote from: 001 on December 16, 2018, 12:40:15 pmmaybe you can get one and tell the story of what your ears tell you what colors?... someone tried to make a measurement device for it but as usual as most of the rest... a dead end thread (no conclusive finding)....Would this work as an AC probe?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 07:59:30 am
content: Quote from: 001 on December 16, 2018, 12:40:15 pmOne answer to rule them all. It's bullshit, wankery, bollocks, fraud etc. discussion over! If you like you can buy some gold plated wire and mains plugs, but then you would be really stupid. Happens to the best, my sisters father in law has "superior" cables and thinks they make a difference. More fool him, he has the money to waste clearly.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 12:56:34 pm
content: why is CVT better then a tapped transformer for long duration?or did you just mean a UPS without a tapped transformer? Even so arent they always converting so why bother? or do you mean its more harmonically clean?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/cost-of-big-ass-constant-voltage-transformer/they appear not to be something you want to specify off the cuff or as a 'good measure'. If you absolutely do not give a shit about any of the ridiclous downsides it might be a good solution for really high survivability. I am not even sure its durable on the long term or anything but I am pretty sure it will be a beast if you turn it on just before it needs to be used in a really dirty environment.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:14:29 pm
content: People, please don't feed the trolls...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: macboy on December 17, 2018, 02:14:29 pmits a reasonable question I was mistifed by them too before I had a firm understanding of filters and stuff. They just seem like a cool accessory thats magical since you don't get some kind of bode or PSRR plot with them. And it just seems cool because you get to plug some high tech shit into your already high tech shit to make it better.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:19:37 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 16, 2018, 03:35:39 pmspot on.like the trend of "surge protection" plugs to pc owners a while back.probably it's just a few VDR's in a big case.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:20:19 pm
content: whats a surge protection plug thats snake oil?keep in mind on some low low low low level of academic interest it probably does something.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:26:36 pm
content: Coppercone2, stop talking bullshit! you know very well that we are not talking surge protection devices but audio phoolery. If you are that ignorant then shut up, sit down and learn something. If you want to go to extremes you can do what the guy in japan did and pay for a second mains hookup to get the purest of power unpolluted by other things in his house.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 17, 2018, 02:26:36 pmno I don't know what you are talking about I don't follow it I assume its a little expensive CVT in a little box that consumes 200W to give you 10 more dB of PSRR on something that already rejects 120dB by defaultThere is literately no links or specs or measurements or anything concrete in this thread, its just a bunch of people angry at some industry effecting some sub sector of consumer electronics. The opening response is literally some ragelord and you are bringing up my post that is asking a real question about some ghostly reference to a product.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:48:50 pm
content: if by power we are talking mains then there is nothing that you can do to it that will affect the quality of sound.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 02:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 17, 2018, 02:48:50 pmuhh the transformer has a bode plot, the rectifier does some stuff to RF, then you have some filter caps and then a linear regulator. All those things have different zones of attenuations at frequencies due to their nature and the regulator has a PSRR thats based on DC voltage.If you put something on mains you can filter out RF frequencies or even low harmonics of mains or you can stabilize the AC level into the unregulated DC supply which will lower the variation of voltage in the regulator so its PSRR will stabilize it even more.if you look at some app notes they defiantly do specify beastly isolation transformers to act as filters before lab supplies that are further connected to ultra high PSRR regulators.I never saw something metrological specify a CVT for any reason but it could theoretically work if your power is ultra bad. Audio equipment does not come with a spec and someone could have made something on very clean power that barely works and when you put it in a farm house it will not work well. Like if someone decided to run a power rail off a zener connected directly to the capacitor after a rectifier for the sake of elegance and simplicy or lack of know how and did not use a real regulator.Or if you do something weird like run it with out the mains transformer because you have a high impedance 48V AC line on hand (filters here, not a cvt), but weird situations come up. Like running to remote lighting some where on a property. The circuit would not expect 400 feet of wire after the external transformer which used to be directly connected to the rectifier inside the chassis.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 03:01:46 pm
content: You are dreaming. Any decent power supply will provide perfect audio. RF frequencies are inaudible and frankly no one cares for harmonics in the power supply. the best power supply if you are paranoid is a decent bench power supply. SMPS followed by a lineal regulator just in case your delicate ears can hear the 100KHz switching frequency. After that quality is down to the audio amp itself.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 03:05:59 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 17, 2018, 03:01:46 pmyou can hear RF like CDMA because the low pass filtering effect combined with the RFI rectifiction effect of the amplifiers ends up acting like a envelope detector so your low frequency burst transmissions end up looking like pulse waves in the audio range some times.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 03:07:59 pm
content: And you get RF from 50Hz mains..................

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 03:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 17, 2018, 03:07:59 pmmake an adapter to plug into an outlet for a spectrum analyzer (like four series CR HPF at 100KHz) you will find many things there.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 03:16:45 pm
content: sure, turn you multimeter on in AC volts and wave the probe around..... if you can't hear it who cares? It's like you saying that you have to breath pure oxygen with no nitrogen.....

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2018, 03:18:32 pm
content: http://www.ursi.org/proceedings/procGA05/pdf/EP.4(01267).pdfits going to get worse too.What you can;t hear is continuous tones because they will manifest themselves as a constant DC offset and stuff is AC coupled. If you modulate it you get AM radio (envelope detector) with the RC networks and rectifiers in the equipment.A high power RF tone can maybe saturate a high gain stage with the resulting DC offset or bring it closer to saturation on high amplitude signals but if you modulate it you just get another signal you don't want in the band of interest. CDMA is encoded in such a way that the envelope it makes ends up being audible and unpleasant.Amplifiers also have different characteristics at different bias levels (even though they stabilize it as much as possible) so you get different distortions and things with RF induced bias errorsDifferent communications protocols may do something else like modulate a bias with some kinda weird high frequency envelope but when enough things effect other things in a complicated network you might get some kind of audible modulation from all the mixings.