A car battery tale - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 07:06:22 am
content: A little battery tale I thought worth sharing.For about six years, I owned a classic Volvo that I used on my daily commute. December 2001, I bought a special type of battery for it. It was about three times as expensive as a regular car battery but it could muster quite a bit more cold cranking amps. It was also said to have three times the lifetime. "We'll see", I thought as the CCA was what I was buying it for.The battery, an absorbed glass mat type wound in spiral cells made by Optima Batteries, went in my next Volvo, a 240 Polar that I bought in 2005. Not until now has it worn beyond the point that starting was no longer be possible. I usually only drive weekends with this car and then longer distances. I know that may be easier on a battery than many short trips, but still, almost 15 years is an impressive achievement for an SLI battery.Without wanting to sound commercial, if those batteries are still manufactured to the same standards today as they were back then, I'd say they're well worth their money and I would recommend them over standard automotive batteries.Unfortunately, as I need my car today, I had to go out to the shop around the corner and buy what they had available. So, back to the regular battery...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 07:34:56 am
content: IMO there is little doubt Optima batteries are "top of the heap".Just love their Red Top range.Yep, ten years+ is a realistic service life and weight for weight and their compactness against competitors and ability to be placed in unusual positions are other plusses.The "off road" guys like them too as in rollovers you won't get dripped on with acid.One of Optima's features is the long shelf life, perfect for vehicles that don't get regular use.Shame they're so bloody expensive.......

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 08:03:52 am
content: I can buy them here in South Africa from the place I normally buy batteries from, just they are expensive. What helped your long life is that Volvo puts the battery in the back of the car, away from the killer engine soak that boils the regular battery in the engine bay. Adds expense to the manufacturer, as they need a long run of very thick copper cable in a heavy protective sleeve, and this is expensive, so they use the front, a thinner cable and just hope it lasts past the mandatory warranty before failing.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 08:46:22 am
content: Optima batteries are great -unless you are in a HOT country.There they break down very quickly. Temperate climate fine - but I went through 6 Optima batteries in my boat in a short time. LifeLine batteries are better for boats in hot climate - but they are marine batteries. BlueTop life - about 2 years - LifeLine 9 years in same boat - same charger.And btw they are not true AGM batteries and have quite low capacity / lbs - and low charge rate compared with real AGM batteries. Optima batteries have about 90% LA and 10% AGM characteristics

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 11:19:46 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 19, 2016, 08:03:52 amDunno which Volvo you're looking at, but the OP was talking about a 240, and all RWD Volvos have the battery up front.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 11:56:31 am
content: They are good for high vibration, but people I know who have bought OPTIMA have been disappointed in them. Personally, I go to a local battery distributor and get a blem returned battery at way less than half the cost and I usually get 4 years out of it.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 11:58:17 am
content: Quote from: BradC on June 19, 2016, 11:19:46 amCould be, i do not see many Volvo's here, they are uncommon. The few I have seen ( and jump started for a flat battery because the doors were open all day at the dam with the radio on) had the battery at the back. Same for some models of BMW as well, and for the original VW Beetle, which had it in the cabin under the rear seat ( fun times with the inadvertent electrically heated rear seat there at times)

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 03:12:21 pm
content: Optima Red batteries are NOW utter crap. They shifted manufacturing so Mexico some years ago and quality has gone down down deeper and down....Read any of the 4wd forums, they are now just very expensive bad batteries. I went through 2 in 2+ years, fortunately they were not toooo expensive at a local store here (maybe $120 or so each). I've replaced them with standard SLA batteries again and the SLA in there is already 3+ years and going strong and was maybe $50 new. Do the math...There are much better AGM batteries out there now, Optima I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. The worst is that both failed over night, dead and no crank in the morning with no advanced notice. My story is repeated often in 4wd forums. They USE to be great batteries, not any more.cheers,george.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 03:19:30 pm
content: I had only good experiences with Optima batteries and never had a bad one so far.Even in my lab I have a red top optima battery for some high amperage 12 V stuff, that was a few times really empty and always recharged without any problems.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 03:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on June 19, 2016, 03:19:30 pmUnfortunately that is the rare situation now (a good red optima), way too many failures in 4wds in recent years (last 5+ years). They just don't survive well in real world/vehicle use. Obviously some do survive, but too many folk have them fail where a regular SLA lasts easily 4 - 5 years for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost. Better AGM batteries are out there too. Optima 'name' is living on its past reputation.cheers,george.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 06:36:20 pm
content: I'm not sure if or when other car manufacturers have done it, but my 2008 cobalt has a 2-3 stage charger system. After starting, the voltage goes up to ~15v, then drops down to 13.8v for a float charge. It still has the original fla battery in the trunk. No engine heat also helps as mentioned earlier too.Though I do keep a 4s4p A123 LiFePO4 jumper pack in the trunk, with enough grunt to start most gasoline engines even without a starter battery. But given that the main battery in the car doesn't owe me a thing after 8 years, I'll call that a reasonable preventative measure.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 09:10:05 pm
content: Quote from: georges80 on June 19, 2016, 03:12:21 pmReading this, in a way I'm not so disappointed that I had to buy a regular battery. Yes, the Optima I just replaced proudly says that is was made in Aurora, Colorado. But it also is a bit of a strange one with an orange top. Even back in 2001, I could not find any in this colour on Optima's website, though apparently it may have something to do with reversed terminal polarity to suit European cars better. Now they just supply the Red Top with both normal and reversed terminals.In my 240, the battery is way up front and to the side, right behind the left headlamp. Heat soak will probably be limited when compared to batteries placed closer to the engine or further back in the engine compartment. But time will tell if the new 62 Ah VMF battery will last. I wonder if this will be one that will fail in the winter as its CCAs are "only" 540 A compared to the 800 A the Orange Top had.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 01:28:05 am
content: My personal experience is that the original-equipment batteries that car manufacturers supply with their vehicles are some of the best. I think perhaps they hold their suppliers (who may actually be some of the same as you find on the shelf of your auto parts store) to higher levels of quality, materials or specification. But for batteries produced for the aftermarket, I think price comes first, and it shows.The OE battery in my current car, made by Panasonic, lasted 7 years of all-season daily use. And yet, the aftermarket replacement, despite having better specs, is on its way out after only 3.Amazingly, my father's car, a Volkswagen, still has a perfectly healthy original battery that's 15 years old now.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 04:28:51 am
content: I think it's a quite reasonable assumption that OEM parts are going to be up there with the best. Maybe not the absolute best, but surely they will have a very good price/quality ratio. The big car brands have a reputation to protect, and some OEM isn't going to ruin that. And in those cases that they neglected to keep stringent controls did we see recalls, so it doesn't always go according to plan.A VW battery will likely be something like Bosch or Varta underneath. Same stuff goes for other parts like (e.g.) oil filters. On an old Volvo getting an original Volvo oil filter is always recommended, but I found out that Mann is the actual OEM, and you can find the same filter rebranded as Bosch, but they are all identical. FRAM is something to steer clear of. I tore one open and found they were inferior inside, yet they cost the same or slightly more. And I know the horror stories of the cardboard-ended filter elements inside American FRAM filters.In the aftermarket, the to me unknown battery brand "VMF", seems to be the choice that the car parts stores stock over here almost by default. Perhaps they have cornered the aftermarket battery market?Hopefully that means they also have some decent quality, but time will tell. The absence of a looking glass to see the state of charge probably means I have a bargain basement model... so, who knows?

author: djQUAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 05:16:49 am
content: No experience with Optimas as I see them as too expensive for what they do. Plus the online comments regarding their life.I usually run through a battery every 2.5yrs in my car doesn't matter if it's an expensive car audio battery or a regular FLA.This time though, I tried something different. I installed a used AGM battery from large UPSs. It was quite cheap and still measured good with a battery analyzer so I tried it.Was installed March 2015 and has clocked thousands of km already but still too early to say. Dad was hesitant at first but since it was cheap, he also had a couple installed in his cars too and are still good. Should it last the same 2.5yrs then I will say it is a good deal for the same life from a much cheaper (used) battery.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 06:36:11 am
content: Quote from: jitter on June 21, 2016, 04:28:51 amVW uses Moll & Bosch batteries usually with own VW branding - but Bosch batteries are a lot better than the Moll ones. Porsche only uses Moll. Bosch are better in hot climates. If you have car on extended warranty - changing to something not original - they might claim warranty not valid... (any excuse...).Most LA batteries die early due to lack of full charge which is why all the big German car companies actually sell CTEK trickle chargers in their accessory shops - to maintain your battery. And CTEK does a really good job of it - one of the best trickle chargers out there. It will pay itself back within 4 years for certain IF you remember to plug it in and charge your battery fully once every 3 months or so.

author: FreddyVictor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 08:16:16 am
content: myrecommendation12 year old car still on original battery used typically 2 times a week & still going fine.well, actually, about a month ago, went to start it & it only just started...Checked the wiring on the charger to find it had come apart inside the cigarette plug due to poor strain-reliefA quick re-solder & a month later all's fine !

author: wiss
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 08:33:39 am
content: My 1 year old V40 has the battery in the front, I thought it was mostly Audi and BMW that had the battery in the trunk...In my older cars the battery usually lasted at least 10 years.From what I read on the swedish volvo forum the original batteries now seems to last about 3 years for many users, I think this is because here most people use the built in heater that drain the battery some and then only drive a few km, not enough to top it up...

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 09:22:30 am
content: The battery in my wifes car (Mazda MX5) is from Panasonic and it is now almost 17 years old ... still working without any problemThe next battery will be Panasonic again

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 10:45:25 am
content: My automotive battery topic on EEVBlogQuoteI did check thepricing of comparable Optimaon a local market (EU) and the investment cost ratio was 4.6:1 in my case.So, expecting same overall cost (ignoring maintenance and replacing of FLA each 10 years and bank discount rate) Optima should last for 46 years to be worth considering. Well it apparently does not.So one wonders, why not investing in a Li-Ion automotive battery? Would cost 20x the FLA and last even more, maybe 20 years. IIRC airplanes have Li-Ion batteries (but for Wh/kg, not A/$).I do understand that some niche applications benefit from AGM batteries. M1 Abrams, Airbus 380, FedEx vans, start-stop vehicles, cars with huge idle battery load driven occasionally etc.IMHO that is 1% of the starting battery market.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 12:27:26 pm
content: Semi off-topic...What's the difference between a car/truck/van battery and the rest? Any good source explaining the differences between battery technologies and up-to-date evolution of them?Are car batteries based on a classic principle? What's the energy density? How to measure and what magnitudes to use? Amp must be related to voltage or Watts in order to be useful, right?Why can a UPS battery be used in a car? Are they the same technology?If batteries are so bad at heat. Would putting them in cooler places reduce accidents and make cars safer?Why aren't LiPo or related technologies used in car batteries? What about electrical combustion hybrid cars?What about batteries used in very heat places? Do they exist? Are there some handicap about these technologies?Ya, some would think to say me to find myself and read about is . These days I just check random stuff and try to get motivated again (health issues, long story).

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 06:09:18 pm
content: I went through a couple Optima Red Tops. I bought the first one maybe 15 years ago, and the second about 7 or 8 years ago. Only the second one still works.I am now using Optima Yellow Tops. Even though the initial CCA is lower, it seems to be better after some amount of time. I like deep-cycle because it seems to take only 1 or 2 complete discharges to really damage the regular ones.I will have to look into the Panasonic batteries next time. I had good luck with those in non-auto applications.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 07:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: timofonic on June 21, 2016, 12:27:26 pmCCA capabilities and Reserve capacity.QuoteWikipedia?QuoteMostly the same for at least the last 50 years, flooded cell LA.QuoteA/Hr and the stated above CCA capabilities and Reserve capacityQuoteSome can, some can't. In short the alternator in most motorised vehicles supplies is capable of supplying charging currents far in excess of the capabilities of Gel cell/SLA type batteries.QuoteThey don't like extreme cold either, CCA is dramatically affected. Most battery placement is perfectly OK for highway use, round town and traffic jams less so.QuoteProbably cost.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 07:39:33 pm
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on June 21, 2016, 06:09:18 pmRed tops are a starting battery, they won't like deep discharge and I'm surprised you obtained the service life you did.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 07:42:51 pm
content: Quote from: timofonic on June 21, 2016, 12:27:26 pmBattery University

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2016, 08:51:33 pm
content: My Honda Civic Type R is almost 14 years old and I just replaced the original battery earlier this year, because I noticed it was getting slower to crank, though it still started ok. The OEM battery was aBoschYuasa (getting old, memory failing). Very impressed by that, never had a battery last that long before.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2016, 07:09:38 am
content: Perhaps that is obvious but the internet is flooded with posts where people think that automotive FLA are worn out when the voltage of unloaded battery drops below some low level, lets say 10VThe problem is that this never happens. Proper (designed) battery wear out mode is by loosing the active material from the grid and that does not change the open cell voltage even by a tiny mV. You cannot test that with smell or voltmeter.So when the FLA case is being broken, or terminators sheared off, or is left to power muted radio for a weekend, or when one cell gets open circuited, or when electrolyte level drops exposing plates then thisis nota standard wear out process of FLA! Could be called "abused, exploited beyond rating, crashed against concrete floor, production flaw, improperly maintained" anything but not worn-out IMHO.However in all above cases it gives similar symptoms - won't crank. Trying to resurrect abused FLA is IMHO pointless and economically unjustified. It may give some temporary results but I'd suggest replacing it anyway.BTW, when I read in some sources that 100mA idle load is normal in a family car I wonder how come people write such utterly stupid things. With 100mA discharge a 3 weeks of no driving (holidays) kill even >60Ah FLA. If one drives regularly only during weekends then this means 52 discharge cycles 20% deep, each year. That is abuse for FLA.

author: nikodean1
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 22, 2016, 08:41:05 pm
content: I wish I knew about this. My ordinary SLA (i'm using it in my solar system) is showing signs of a significant capacity reduction after 4 years of usage.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2016, 09:58:41 pm
content: "It was about three times as expensive as a regular car battery but it could muster quite a bit more cold cranking amps. It was also said to have three times the lifetime. "Doesn't seem to be a good deal to lag 3x of the cost for 3x of the life, unless putting in a new battery is that bug of a deal for you.Last battery I replaced was on a 2009 Toyota so 7 year old, for 300usd.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2016, 04:44:12 am
content: And I also wrote that the high CCA rating was what I had bought it for. The other characteristics like longer lifespan, really maintenance free and universal mounting position were not my primary reason for buying the Optima. But despite the price, I still think it was money well spent. The type of driving that's common in this country (short trips) means the average lifespan of a standard battery is 4 years, if you're lucky. They also tend do die from one moment to the next, without the slightest warning.The regular 62 Ah car battery that I now have has a CCA of 540 A, while because of the lower internal resistance the smaller (52 Ah) Optima Orange Top could do 800 A. I bought it originally for a classic Volvo that I ran on LPG, which could be a bit tricky to start. Starting on petrol was out of the question, BTW, running a SU-type carburettor on LPG for years meant the needle had worn the venturi which meant in turn it was even harder to start on petrol than on LPG.