Best Oscilloscope for complete beginner? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: David Cutcher CEG
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 05:04:18 pm
content: I am developing an online course, for the complete beginner.In the second module, as I introduce digital, I also introduce an oscillating circuit and oscilloscopes to visualize what's happening. In my book,Electronic Circuits for the Evil Genius2nd ed 2010 - I use an online freeware and we build our own probe.BUT . . . prices and size have plummeted. Now some scopes are less expensive than an adequate soldering station.What can this audience recommend - for beginners, introducing concepts, ideally 2 channel. Inexpensive.Discussion ended up with GYRO referring me to this EEVBLABhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-vds1022i-quick-teardown-(versus-the-hantek-6022be)/all about the OWON VDS1022i. Looks good.And I've ordered one.David Cutcher "Certified Evil Genius"

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 05:50:49 pm
content: This is debated every week, give or take a couple of days. Here in the Beginner's forum and also in the Test Equipment forum.The Rigol DS1054Z usually heads the list as it is more mature but the Siglent 1104X-E is gaining ground. Personally, I would look at the 200 MHz version, the 1204X-E but it is expensive. The 1104X-E can be unlocked to get 200 MHz bandwidth, details elsewhere.I have the Rigol and it works fine for me. There are complaints about the speed of the UI (and they're valid) but I don't spend all that much time twiddling knobs compared to watching the display. So what if I save 50% time on a 1% operation?The Siglent is supposed to be much more responsive but I don't have one.However...I think a better solution for a newcomer is the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 because it has 2 AWG channels, 2 differential scope channels, a dual power supply (very limited current) plus 16 digital IO pins that can be used as a logic analyzer with protocol decoding. Digilent has a course (Real Analog) based on this gadget.The AD2 is an electronics lab in a small package and, no matter what, a 27" display is bigger than a 7" display.A newcomer can get a lot farther into electronics with a much smaller investment if they consider the AD2.Check the specs:https://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 07:06:57 pm
content: Whatever rstofer mentioned, with an addendum:If the target audience is severely cash strapped and you are working with audio, you can also check one of the toy oscilloscopes on the web:TheJyeTech DSO138is dirt cheap and comes both assembled and in kit form. May be a great path to also introduce soldering.TheJyeTech DSO150has more or less the same characteristics as above but in a more compact form.TheDaniu DSO188with 1MHz and 5MSPS is a much upgraded version of the previous one. I couldn't find a kit form, but it is still quite cheap.What do you lose when using one of these? Apart from the performance features themselves, you lose the look and feel of using a real tool. On the other hand, assembling your own tool gives some extra reward points (for the DSO138).

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 07:28:41 pm
content: In that case, I'm going to throw the VDS1022 into the mix - you get two channel, 25MHz, 100Msps, low cost and the 27" (pc) screen.P.S. If you're introducing digital then don't forget the $10 ebay 8 channel USB logic analyser.

author: David Cutcher CEG
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 08:16:57 pm
content: Thank you for this,but for my audience, these tools would be like giving them a Fluke DMM and then showing them how to do continuity.My expectation is that they will get better tools if they choose to progress.David Cutcher "Certified Evil Genius"

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 08:17:59 pm
content: Well you're setting us a pretty hard (impossible?) challenge to compete with freeware!Current ebay prices:- 8 channel logic analyser <$7 US, use with freeware Sigrok Pulseview.- rsjsouza's suggested single channel DSO138 kit, <$15 US- Owon 2 channel VDS1022 (non isolated version) <$70 USAll shipped from China of course but I'd say that's pretty good value!The Rigol DS1054Z, Siglent 1104X-E, and Digilent Analog Discovery 2 are, of course, considerably more expensive but you get what you pay for.

author: David Cutcher CEG
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 08:23:41 pm
content: These are interesting, but I need 2 channel. Audio Signal. Simple.And from experience, it can't be a kit. In a classroom, I can help fix a bad solder that ruins a project. Can't do that online.I'm looking now at he Owon VDS1022. Any experience with this tool?David Cutcher "Certified Evil Genius"

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 08:26:58 pm
content: Yes, sure...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-vds1022i-quick-teardown-(versus-the-hantek-6022be)/The galvanically Isolated version (I) is preferable for a few more $.I agree, the DSO138 can be a bit of a bugger to solder (pad size a bit small).P.S. There's the Hantek too, but it has issues (performance and S/W), there's an "Open Hantek" s/w initiative to resolve the latter.

author: David Cutcher CEG
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 08:29:42 pm
content: Owon VDS1022This looks perfect. Do you have experience with it?It has seriously mixed reviews online.But so does my text. For example . . .Worst reviews from tech and engineers, saying my demonstrations and my graphics are too simple.Best reviews from those who are complete beginners, never held a DMM before.DAvid Cutcher "Certified Evil Genius"

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 08:38:05 pm
content: QuoteSee above.

author: David Cutcher CEG
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 08:51:35 pm
content: AH! Yes. And I'm very impressed, reading past posts from a general search, and your connection.I'm ordering the VDS-1022 this afternoon.Thank you for your attention to this.David Cutcher "Certified Evil Genius"

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 09:02:36 pm
content: There's also the option of the cheap used analog scope. For visualizing what an oscillator is doing virtually any scope will do the job. Often times the best scope is the one you can get your hands on.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 02:22:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 18, 2019, 09:02:36 pmI also support the idea of an analogue scope as being thefirst contactinstrument - for one very basic reason: They represent the most straightforward operation that is based on the physics of scanning a CRT. This gives two benefits:1. The response to control changes is instant. This is really important in the early stages to make the connections "this switch does that". DSOs aren't always as responsive.2. The controls and their function are easily connected to the physics - which is not as apparent with digital scopes. This also explains why the basic operation of DSOs is the way it is.Once there is understanding, then the argument for continued use of an analogue scope diminishes.Edit:Of course, the appropriateness of this will depend upon the course objectives.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 03:06:52 am
content: You might also look at the PicoScopes (starting at $139 for 10MHz minus their EEVBlog discount).https://www.tequipment.net/Pico/2204A/PC-Based-Oscilloscopes/?v=7404I believe their software is more mature and is used for their entire product line.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 04:20:04 am
content: That doesn't seem like much of a bargain when you can get an older standalone 100MHz DSO for around that price range. PC based instruments never really lived up to the hype IMO, they were supposed to be much cheaper since they could use a PC as the display and processing hardware however in practice I never really saw much if any savings. Especially now when displays and computers are cheap as dirt.

author: Peabody
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 04:21:59 am
content: JYETech has a new 2-channel kit, the "Wave2". They sell it for $79 with free shipping, which is less than Banggood's price. But you would also need a battery - about another $9.https://jyetech.com/wave2-2-channel-oscilloscope/

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 05:24:31 am
content: I don't think there are special scopes for beginners, for professionals, etc. Just buy a good one, and learn how to use it. For complete beginners there is often "autosetup" button and "reset settings" buttons. Of course approach only works for people who a willing to learn. Also worth watching videos on safety, there are quite a few pitfalls due to common ground on probes.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 05:30:57 am
content: Quote from: exe on April 19, 2019, 05:24:31 amWhoops ... Yes!Here is the obligatory viewing material:

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 06:04:19 am
content: BTW, I'd just go to a local hackspace and asked somebody to teach how to use an oscilloscope. Like, triggering, ac/dc coupling, vertical controls, horizontal controls, probe attenuation, compensation, sampling rate, measurements, math (differential mode, fft, ...), etc. May be even serial decoding.I also agree on the point that it's quite easy to screw measurements and even burn the DUT. So, sanity check is needed at all times.An analogue scope and a demo board can be a nice first encounter.The way I learned how to use scopes is I went to an industrial fare, and a representative of GW Instek was happy to show their equipment, as well told me how to use it, and even gave me a few tasks like to setup trigger on an unstable signal, etc. Then I connected it to their signal generator and played with that. It was super nice experience. Then I went to LeCroy booth and played with equipment I probably will never buy for myself. It was also interesting to compare ui of different brands. In a few hours I got hands-on experience with Rigol, Siglent, GW Instek, Keysight, R&S and Hameg and Teledyne LeCroy. Although at the end I bought Micsig. Each scope has own strengths and weaknesses, but frankly, for a typical use it's not that important which one you have. They all let the job done.One thing to consider is analog discovery 2 (ad2), this is the oscilloscope, signal generator and logic analyzer for my daily use (partly because of differential input). I have much better equipment than ad2 in terms of specs, but it collects dust most of the time.PS I'd also watch a video "how not blow up yourself when using an oscilloscope". Hint: it's quite a tricky subject.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:13:51 am
content: I think this thread is loosing track of the fact that the OP - the author of "Electronic Circuits for the Evil Genius", is looking for something low cost to standardise on foran online course, that that has current availability. He can't really do that with a mixed bunch of miscellaneous second-hand analogue (or digital), or the more expensive stuff that might normally be applicable to single users.If you look at a copy of his book, you'll see that he hand-holds the readers quite closely.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 03:12:28 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 19, 2019, 09:13:51 amThe selection has already been made in Reply 10 - the Owon VDS-1022 - available at Amazon for $79 (about $100 for the isolated version, the VDS-1022i). This is about as 'entry level' as it gets and can probably reach a wider audience.There is an Oscilloscope Training Class as a sticky at the top of this forum:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/oscilloscope-training-class-(long)/The Owon might be interesting for one of my applications. I play around with an analog computer and some form of graphic display is required. The required bandwidth is quite low and it might be nice to have a unit dedicated to the purpose. I don't want to tie up my AD2 and moving my DS1054Z between the bench and analog computer is kind of a drag. Maybe I'll give the Owon a try. It's not like I'm risking a lot of money.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 03:37:07 pm
content: An early EEVblog review of other USB Scopes:Here is a review of the OWON VDS1022i specifically:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-vds1022i-quick-teardown-(versus-the-hantek-6022be)/

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 05:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 19, 2019, 03:12:28 pmQuote from: rstofer on April 19, 2019, 03:37:07 pmErr, I know.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 10:13:05 pm
content: I have bought both the "DSO138" and the "DSO SHELL" and I find them very dissapointing. The buttons of the 138 are a pretty bad user interface. The "Shell" has a rotary encoder and the user interface itself is usable, but some other limitations are too big to call these usable instruments.First, they pick up way too much noise. The STM32F103... used in these 2 toys are 10 bit converters, but they do not seem to manage to get more then 6 bit of usability out of them. This may be a PCB layout issue or maybe it's simply bad software, for example using the least significant digits of the ADC instead of the most significant digits.Another issue is simply bad overall software. Especially the way triggering is implented. You can somewhat change a trigger level to get a stable signal on the LCD, but the triggering itself is always off screen and you can not see the point on which thescopetoy was actually triggered.If those issues were resolved the DSO Shell would have been a nice and usable instrument, even with it's limitations of small low resolution screen, limited functionality and small bandwith. Those are acceptable for an EUR 20 instrument.The "DSO Nano" and "DSO Quad" are also jokes. Horrible User interfaces (they may have improved on that) but they're too expensive. Just add EUR150 and buy a real scope.The "expeyes" may be interesting. It has been designed in India with the goal of education in mind. It can be combined with a PC or a phone for a UI, which keeps the price low.I also recommend to search for "gabotronics". On his website he made an overview of about 50+ scope like gadget things.If you're designing a coarse about electronics you also can go hardly around microcontrollers nowadays. For microcontroller debugging a Logic Analyser is a very usefull tool and I can highly recommend the very cheap (EUR 7 !!! ) LA's from Ali / Ebay / China. Just search over there for "24MHz 8ch", and use them with Sigrok / Pulseview.I have a Rigol scopoe myself, but when working with microcontrollers I often find the EUR 7 Logic analyser more usefull. On the AVRfreaks forum there is an old thread that is an introduction into using a LA for software debugging on small uC's.https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment/2421756

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 10:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: exe on April 19, 2019, 05:24:31 amThe "autosetup" button is the most anti-learning button on the DSO. Students should not be permitted to use that button until they already know how to capture a signal manually by setting appropriate vertical and horizontal and trigger settings. In fact I note that some "entry level" scopes that might be found in classrooms have this button disabled, deep in a menu. You can even disable it in the Rigol DS1054z.I am of the school of thought that says absolute beginners should absolutely begin on an analog scope. Hopefully it will last long enough for the student to figure it out. Then when it goes wonky, get a decent DSO to help fix the analog scope.

author: David Cutcher CEG
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 12:12:28 am
content: Exactly!Course will be up on Udemy on July 1st.Those who take the second module will either usethe freeware, and probe that they make (1 M ohm : 100 k ohm voltage divider, input no more than 9 volts)orthe Owon VDS-1022 if they choose to purchase.I might be able to help those who have varying 2nd hand stuff, but for the number of problems that can happen, I will limit my responses to those who choose to use other devices.David Cutcher "Certified Evil Genius"

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 01:10:11 am
content: Clearly, it will be difficult to deal with all the myriad scopes students might use. But there are tutorials all over the Internet so pushing the problem off to Google seems like an adequate response.There will be a gigantic difference between the GUI interface of the Owon and the physical knobs of a real DSO.I take the counter position on the Auto button (where fitted) because I might not remember how I left my scope the last time I used it. Same for a student, they don't have a clue how the settings were left. With the benefit of power-on using the last settings, the scope could be in some truly bizarre state. Suppose they had labeled it "Reset" as in reset the settings to something reasonable.Although I have a Tek 485, I take the counter position on buying and trying to maintain an analog scope. Sure, they're cheap enough but if it breaks, a newcomer is in no position to fix it. And shouldn't even be working inside the case!I don't know what to think about the Owon and the isolation feature available at significant additional extra expense. For the purposes of a course, I think I would go for the low bucks solution and skip the isolation. Although I would constantly worry about frying my computer... I need to think about this!Down the road the student will be better served with a real DSO.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 01:28:00 am
content: The best scope is whatever they have or can afford. The Rigol DS1000E series is fairly cheap, but in the bang for the buck category the Siglent SDS1202X-E looks very good. My Owon XDS2102A is great as a DAQ, but rather wretched as a bench instrument. At the moment I like the Instek GDS-2000E line best, but it's a lot more money. I'm going to be getting a Siglent SDS1000X-E for a head to head comparison of Rigol, Siglent, Owon and Instek entry level DSOs.I'm old and cruel. I will be trying to break all of them.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 01:29:44 am
content: I guess the ideal situation is that the student has a mentor who can help them pick out and maintain their analog CRO. I do strongly agree that beginners ought to have "first contact" with an analog CRO if at all possible. Decent CROs are very intuitive to use as mentioned above and will teach them a lot more about running a scope manually. However, students on their own probably are best served by avoiding the pitfalls of old test equipment.If it were me, I might couch something along the lines of "We recommend getting your first scope experience with an analog scope <and here's resources on how to find one to either buy or use, e.g. local hackerspaces etc.>, but do not open the case or attempt any sort of repair because there's voltages that will kill you in there." Then provide recommendations of modern equipment for everyone else.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 08:30:45 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 20, 2019, 01:10:11 amWho knows, in the future we may find that the knobs become an anachronism (particularly if they keep using cheap Chinese encoders), and GUI becomes the norm when they start fitting them with decent sized screens, tablet style. Everything else seems to be heading that way.QuoteFrom my review, I think the isolated version is worth the (not so significant on ebay) difference. Yes its purpose is to break the ground loop rather than floating at elevated voltages (although the isolation components have decent rating). Trashing your PC isn't the best way to experience early stage learning, although they will have to understand the issue / danger of ground loops at some point. It also usefully reduces noise levels in some circumstances.

author: DDunfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 01:15:28 pm
content: Just to chime in...I have the VDS1022I (in my portable kit), as well as several bench scopes (incl DS1054Z) and a couple scopemeters.I agree that physical knobs and switches are better on the bench that fiddling with a mouse, but the VDS is actually not too bad in this respect. They don't use idiotic "virtual knobs", the settings are just displayed, with drop-down menus when you click them. Easy to see the current setup, and easy to change things. I expect the newbies who've been using computers/GUIs "their whole life" will not have any problems with it.As for starting with an analog scope, I do agree that for your very first exposure to a scope, and analog is simpler and the functions it performs tend to be more clearly understandable, but you don't have to go far in electronics (especially digital) before you want a DSO. Add to that that the VDS1022 is not a complex DSO and certainly can be used with just the basic functions in a manner almost exactly like an analog scope, and I don't think it's a bad starting point at all for a student.Having all the students using the same thing will be a benefit, and the VDS1022 is probably a very good fit. It's new, so everyone can have the same one, it's inexpensive, and it works (going much cheaper gets you things that don't really work).As far as the 'I' version, I would highly recommend it. I've seen it for as little as $10 more than the non-I. As far as the class goes, it won't make a difference as the function and software is exactly the same, those who really can't afford the difference would be able to use the non-'I' with no problems.Dave

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 05:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 20, 2019, 08:30:45 amI sure hope not. I loathe touchscreens, fingerprints everywhere, yuck. I tolerate it on my phone because it's not practical to have real input devices in my pocket but controlling a scope that way sounds painful.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 06:13:14 pm
content: I agree, but I'm 'of an age'. Who knows what the next generation will want... "Knobs aresolast year"Edit: Just spotted case in point...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheapest-touchscreen-oscillorscope/

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 05:45:48 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 20, 2019, 05:36:59 pmThe choice of my first scope was heavily influenced but opinions like this. There is quite a bit of resistance from senior and experienced engineers who push back to have buttons on equipment. Now, looking back after more than one year of having to1104, I clearly see that most people who object touch-screens haven't even tried it. I'm not going to convince anyone that touch screens are "not that bad", "less evil than people think", etc. At the end It's a personal thing. But what I find not right is saying that "it must be bad because it sounds bad".In my opinion touch control is superior to knobs because the user can directly manipulate the waveforms. It's hard to explain it, but when I work with my scope I feel like I can "touch" the waveform. I can zoom in and out (even though pinch zoom is not implemented, but there are buttons in the right place on the screen to do it), change sensitivity, offset, do measurements, all in a very intuitive way. Like, when I do measurements I just point on the screen right in the place where cursor should be, etc. It feels very intuitive. Not everything is ideal, there is a learning curve ("damn, where is my math function?", "how to adjust trigger??", "how to do fine adjustment?", "what if two waveform overlap, how to select the specific one?"), but after using my scope for a while I don't want to go back to knobs. To me bad experience with touch devices is a UI/UX problem, not a fundamental problem of touch screens per se. Not to say this opens opportunity to new form-factors.I tried knobs, it was not up to my expectations. For example, on a four-channel scope I wanted dedicated controls for each channel because people say it's a way to go. In practice for me it was quite hard to get to the right knob. Dunno why, but I prefer single control for all channels with buttons to select active channel (sure it's a matter of practice, but still). Or cursor positioning. A good velocity control makes it easy to fine positioning, as well doing big adjustments, but I found that just dragging by a finger is more convenient.Sorry for the long rant. I promised myself not to get involved in discussions like 'what's the best oscilloscope for beginners", "analog scope vs dso", "touch vs buttons", but at the end broke my own rules. By no way I'm saying that I'm right and you are not. I just want to provide an alternative opinion so potential buyers do not remove touch scopes from consideration. There is also a place for hybrid controls, that's the way most if not all higher-end scopes do nowadays (even though knobs seems to be the primary way to control it).

author: DDunfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 03:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: exe on April 21, 2019, 05:45:48 amFWIW, I don't mind the touch screen on my phone or tablets, but I dislike them on test equipment for the same reason I don't like them in my car .. you can't operate them without looking at them.When I'm holding a probe on with one hand, and trying to glance at the screen from time to time, the last thing I want to do is have to focus on my other hand to make sure it hasn't drifted over to another control (which Murphy sez will really screw things up, and I won't know which one it was because I wasn't looking at it). Once I get my finger planted on a knob, I can pretty much keep them there without having to check.Dave

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 03:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: DDunfield on April 21, 2019, 03:00:12 pmWhy would one want to operate the oscilloscope blindly?It's the tool to visualize in the first place, I do settings in trial-n-error approach, when I have to use vert/horiz controls and trigger until I see a satisfactory capture. There is more than one knob to adjust on a good scope... Anyway, I'm gonna say you how you should use your scope... Just I feel like we are discussing an imaginary scenario, not based on actual usage of a real touch-screen oscilloscope with a UI optimized for screen controls.I personally found it more convenient to use virtual controls because they are closer to the waveform. I have my "adjusting" hand and the waveform in the same view, so no problems for me.Of course, one may say that touch screens are glossy, they collect fingerprints, don't work with wet hands, etc. But I suggest just try micsig, it really has a good UI in terms of usability. A little bit slow to respond, but that's not an issue with a touchscreen.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 05:21:25 pm
content: You don't operate it blindly, you change the setting you need to change, capture the event you want to see, then you look up at the screen.I've been using touch screens on various equipment since they first started to get common around 30 years ago when I was just a kid. I hated them then and I hate them now, I've always had problems getting touches to register, or I bump it and end up with accidental touches. They get sticky and gross, they don't work well if your fingers are too moist or not moist enough. There is no tactile feedback, they're just irritating. I tolerate touchscreens when there is no better alternative but they are inferior to buttons.I don't even want to get started on cars, whoever decided it would be a good idea to bury functions in nested menus that you have to try to operate while watching the road should be shot. All necessary functions in a car should be controlled by physical buttons and switches that I can operate by memory without taking my eyes off the road to look at them.

author: DDunfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 05:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: exe on April 21, 2019, 03:43:05 pmWho said anything about "operating blindly" ... It's perfectly ok to not agree with another opinion, but why feel the need to ridicule it?I can think of lots of cases where I use the controls without looking at them. (Just to be clear, I don't want to look at them because I'd rather focus on details of the waveform).A few examples:- Trying to capture an elusive event - repeatedly hitting the "Single/Arm/etc." key (ok, it's a key not a knob, but it has physical borders) - On a touch screen it's very easy to get "off" from the button, Just try to backspace character by character over a long line on your phone without looking at it. Once I decide to try again, I don't want to waste time making sure my finger is in the right spot. Since I can feel the button under it, I know it's in the right spot.- Positioning the cursors .. I want to focus on putting them exactly where I want, not back and forth to the side of the screen for a "virtual control". Yeah, you might be able plant your finger on the screen, try not to cover up what you want to see and move them with the resolution afforded by a finger sliding on glass, but I happen to prefer a precision encoder.- Getting just what I want on the screen, usually involves adjusting Horizontal scale and position .. two knobs right above/below each other on my scopes, easy to move between them by feel. Not so much if all you feel is a flat surface. For that matter, it's pretty easy to move back and forth to the vertical without looking.. use a scope enough and you will be able to operate much of it by "feel". And, yep, I recognize that for some UI's you can pinch and slide but again, I personally find it easier to perform precision adjustments with "out of band" rotary knobs than "in band" fingers on glass,Another aspect of touch controls for bench instruments (not as significant for hand-held) is that you either have to rest your wrist on the bench, fingertips elsewhere on the device, or deal with a long "lever" (your arm) when making precision adjustments. The rotary motion of knobs provides better precision (for me at least) when my arm is unsupported than sliding side to side.That's not say I wouldn't use a touch-screen scope, I feel the same way about having to twiddle controls with a mouse on PC based instruments, but I do it for my portable kit because a USB scope is the best compromise between size and functionality. That being said, given a choice, I prefer knobs and buttons I can manipulate by feel. I can have that luxury on my bench.This is my opinion/experience, given to provide counterbalance to other welcome opinions presented in the discussion. In the end, the choice is up to the buyer.Dave

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 06:56:14 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on April 20, 2019, 08:30:45 amI run my Analog Discovery 2 through a powered hub. It doesn't break the ground connection but the hub, rather than the PC, provides the power.Believe me, I think about the possibilities of destruction every time I use a PC based 'thing' including uC boards connected to off-board things. All run through the hub.https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VDVCQ84/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1Breaking the ground connection is a better plan, no doubt. I don't work on high voltage <anything>, +-15V is about my limit. No real reason, I just don't work on things that operate at higher voltage. If I want an SMPS at running off mains, I buy it!I'm getting old and I have been using analog scopes for 60+ years including the one I built from the ARRL Handbook back around '58. So, I have a wee bit of time in grade!I don't see where spending any time with an analog scope teaches anything that can't be learned equally fast on a DSO. There are only 3 elementary controls and they are identical: Volts/div, Time/div and trigger level (polarity). Yes, there is AC vs DC coupling and that is just as easy to change on a DSO as it is on an analog scope. Tap the channel button and the selection button is at the top of the list. Every single thing you can learn on an analog scope is equally easy to learn on a DSO. Well, 'delayed sweep' might be a challenge but that's for the advanced user anyway. I have NEVER used the feature on my Tek 485. Not once!If an analog scope was available, sure, use it! If not, don't spend $5 buying one if the intent is to buy a DSO. Well, maybe $5. But certainly not $100. I like my Tek 485, I got it cheap ($200) and it works well. It sits, unused, under my bench since I got the DS1054Z. The DSO has features the analog scope couldn't even dream of. Measurements comes to mind! How about Single Shot? Try that with an analog scope (other than a storage scope). Single Shot is the biggest feature of the DSO and it is truly important.Want to get started with a DSO? Connect the probe to the calibration output and press "Auto". Then look at the screen to learn about Volts/div and Time/div. Twist the knobs, see how the display changes. Now progress at your leisure. You know how to get the trace on the screen - something they used to have to put a "Beam Finder" button for in the old days of analog scopes and all it did was verify that the scope could provide a trace but didn't help find it (think high voltage DC coupled with V/div set at some low value).I'm not sure what to think about a USB scope. Sure, my AD2 is USB based and the UI isn't horrible. I don't know how the VDS1022I UI works. I watched a short video but I can't say I was impressed. So, in the near future, I'll buy one just to test it out. They're cheap enough and I have an application so why not?There are a lot of people taking the position that a new user should start with an analog scope. Fine! But tell me exactly WHY? What are they going to learn that isn't nearly identical on a DSO? I started with an analog scope (by definition) but now that I have had a DSO for a couple of years, I can't think of a single valid reason to recommend such a thing UNLESS the issue was bandwidth. Price wise, a used high bandwidth analog scope is going to be a LOT cheaper than a new high bandwidth DSO. But it's used... And what about measurements? Decoding? Single Shot? The analog is about as useful as a '55 Ford.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 07:11:26 pm
content: Quote from: DDunfield on April 21, 2019, 05:57:40 pmAnd the market will decide...I like knobs and buttons. The modern DSO has too many adjustments to use physical knobs so I suppose the soft menu thing is here to stay. I don't think I will rush right in for a touch screen unless I can use it with a mouse.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 07:15:22 pm
content: Why wouldn't a '55 Ford be useful? It would get you around just as well as a modern car and with a lot more style. It's easy to work on and can be repaired with basic tools.I wouldn't say it's worth spending a lot on an analog scope but even after using a DSO for years I find there's something more "real" feeling about analog. You can turn down the sweep speed and see the beam moving in real time. I think there's some benefit to using one early on.Likewise I think proficiency with a manual transmission should be mandatory to obtain a driver's license. It makes people better, more attentive and more engaged drivers.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 08:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 21, 2019, 06:56:14 pmOperation becomes a lot easier once you start using the, mostly undocumented, shortcuts.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-vds1022i-quick-teardown-(versus-the-hantek-6022be)/msg827103/#msg827103Don't forget to expand the image, which highlights the items numbered in the list.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 12:08:08 pm
content: I hear you guys and I see really nothing against touch screen, but just personal taste, which is fine. Again, the discussion itself doesn't really make any sense, as no "thought experiment" can replace real hands-on experience with a particular device. The potential problems mentioned here with touch ui, I simply have almost none of them. May be because UI on micsigs works not the way it is assumed. Sure thing, if it was missing touches, had too tiny controls, hands were obstructing screen, etc, that reasoning would be valid. But those are just assumptions, not standing true *in my typical operation of the scope*. And it's not just me, you are welcome to read reviews and discussion in the relevant thread on this forum, including from reputable members:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/(old version of firmare, but still representative) .It's fine to like knobs, just don't generalize bad touch experience too much

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 02:38:09 pm
content: One thing I would mention with the USB scopes is the software, it can make or kill the usefulness of the hardware. The Picoscope and the Analog Discovery are the more expensive of the entry level USB scopes and their software gets great reviews. The Owons' and Hanteks' not so much. A few of the Hanteks are supported by Sigrok and i would investigate those and be wary of any low budget USB scope without Sigrok compatibility.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 04:15:44 pm
content: Courses should not be made around some specific scope model.A basic course about electronics shoul of course have some fair bits of info about oscilloscopes and how to use them, but it should not be dependent on a particular brand or model of scope.So don't write, "push this or tha" button" ( with a screenshot), but write " Put your scope into AC-coupling mode."It may seem easier for you to teach which button to push, but if your students do not learn what they are doing or why a particular measurement mode is preferable for the measurement at hand they won't learn much.Even if your students can not afford them (yet), a chapter about some more advanced measurement modes of oscilloscopes and some differences between brands will help them make educated desicions for themself.I've got an old Rigol DS1052 myself and tought about upgrading to a 4 channel Siglent. Then I realised that my old Rigol already is more scope than I actually need. I hacked it to 100MHz, but almost always limit the bandwith to 20MHz because I don't want to see the noise, and decent probe setup for that bandwith is too cumbersome to setup anyway for most measurements.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 10:50:44 pm
content: That's a good point, it may make sense to recommend one of several popular hobbyist scopes and provide a bit of general scope information and instruct people to read the manual or consult a forum for specific details. Most scopes have roughly the same controls and work in the same way.

author: David Cutcher CEG
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 12:05:20 am
content: This is exactly why I have requested input from the larger community.The course will not be "plug & play." Not my style. Check out my text. [Electronic Circuits for the Evil Genius - McGraw-Hill 2010 2nd ed]This course, like my book, is for the complete beginner. My expectation is that many have never used a multimeter before and that's where I start in lesson 2, right after inventory. When they get to lesson 30 - we need the scope to visualize a NAND gate RC oscillator. It is simple enough to see using freeware scope and home made probe. But there are always those who want more. It's not standardized, but when I'm asked the question, I want to honestly recommend one item as an entry level scope. Just like I'd recommend a quality entry level DMM for $30 usd, not a Fluke DMM.It's my expectation is that they will use whatever is available, whether it has Sigrok compatibility or not. And if nothing is available, the freeware is an adequate introduction, even if it is limited to audio AC. It's all about concept.David Cutcher "Certified Evil Genius"

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 01:20:40 am
content: Perhaps write:Appendix A - How To Use An Oscilloscope, A Short IntroductionThroughout the text just give hints for Time/div and Volts/div and perhaps trigger type and level. Leave it to the student to peruse Appendix A and/or browse the Internet for tutorials. All of human knowledge is on the Internet and Google knows where.Or refer them to video series linked as a sticky at the top of this forum.