Fake power cord, WHY? It came with a hard drive reader kit. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:01:46 pm
content: Hey folks,I needed a power cord to wire up something for a test and looked in my scrap bin and grabbed the old cord that came with my hard drive reader kit (whose power supply broke after 2 days). The kit looks something like this, about $7-10 on eBay:Anyways, I had the cord laying around because the power supply died after a few days of use. Now I wonder if it was related. Anyways, I cut the cord (which looked very thin) and to my surprise it contained only 2 wires in it, even though it appears to be a grounded 3-prong cord!!! The markings on it make no sense... e.g. what is 3x0.5mm^2 supposed to mean? And the 300/300V... is that supposed to be a fraction saying it is 1V?What about 10A/250~ ?BOTTOM LINE:I'm not really upset that they used a piss-ant cord for this hard drive reader kit. It probably doesn't need a ground for the power supply, and probably draws nowhere near the current it would take to overwhelm the power cord. My concern is, why didn't they just use a 2-pronged cord with a smaller or non-standard connector to their power supply? Something that you would NOT CONFUSE with a regular power cord? Someone may grab this FAKE cord and plug it into another device that DOES need ground and DOES have a current draw that will overwhelm the cable. Why did they not just choose a crappier cable? I have to look now at the power supply that it came with and see if the ground was even utilized, and if so, could lack of a grounded power cord cause that original power supply to fail? If the power supply didn't need grounding, why waste money on all the fakery?Here's a video I made cutting it open and comparing it to a normal cord, maybe others can be warned to prevent some fire or safety risk in the future:It boggles the mind, I mean they made the kit and I assume could have obtained a power supply that used a proper cord. Why not just use a supply that clearly has no ground and therefore use a cable with a lower rating and 2-conductor and just keep everything legit? Why mix and match and fake everything if they are selling a KIT anyways with a cord that is clearly supposed to ONLY be used with their hard drive reading kit?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:17:46 pm
content: Quote3 core 0.5mm squared ,rated at 300v DC and 300v AC

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:18:23 pm
content: Yup. I have several of those kits which I use to make backups on old ATA HDD of which I have many, extracted from old machines. I have had to repair several, and replace capacitors.As you say, most cords are fake 3 and only have two conductors. I don't know why they put a three prong plug instead of just two.I do test them and make sure only grounded cords have a three prong plug. If not I will cut the third prong and leave it as a two prong plug.I have used the prongs I cut off for other things like banana jacks.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:22:43 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 31, 2019, 04:17:46 pmYES!!! That's what I thought... but they must be using an invisible 3rd wire.Quote from: soldar on July 31, 2019, 04:18:23 pmHey great idea! I may start doing that!By the way I found the original power supply that broke after 2 days in the hard drive reading kit... Have a look at the photos, notice that the ground lead is not even soldered to the board and even the PCB doesn't have any use for the ground anyways. It doesn't even seem to be there for extra anchorage of the socket/plug.So why did they not just use a different plug and power cord to avoid confusion with the real thing, and have to fake this? Nobody would care if it came with a 2-pronger and a 2-prong AC cable. It uses under 1A current draw, just label the freaking cord properly and use a normal 2-prong cord. Why make it easy for someone to confuse the power cord with a real one, so it fits another device that may actually NEED ground and NEED higher current draw?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:31:58 pm
content: The marking with 3 x 0.5 mm² should already be a warning:This is to thin to reliably trip the mains fuse in case of a short. At least in the EU such cable that may be used on things that take up to some 10 or even 16 A must be good for those 16A. So some 1.5 mm² minimum for extension cords or similar. Even with smaller (e.g. 2 pin) plugs for lower power equipment 0.75 mm² is essentially the minimum for main wiring, unless there is a smaller fuse in the plug.Even the 3x0.5 mm² marking is obviously fake.Those dangerous thin cables from China are a real problem - so either scrap them right away or measure the resistance to check the wires before use. Beside to thin copper there are also reports of copper clad iron wires and similar crap.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 04:32:44 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 31, 2019, 04:17:46 pmNeg. Voltage markings are Uo/U - voltage to earth, voltage between lines.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 05:59:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on July 31, 2019, 04:31:58 pmOn cheap Chinese wires like this, the ² term associates with the 0.5, making for a 0.25 square mm wire...

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 07:27:11 pm
content: You get what you pay for and all that jazz.I have had to repair several of mine in different ways. One is so patched up it is barely recognizable. I had to change the electrolytic capacitors and then I added some filtering because the output voltages had a lot of noise.All my cords of any kind are carefully tested. I will never put a grounded plug on a 2 wire cable.Regarding conductor section, yes, many are marginal.I have the practice of keeping cords of all types with their devices. Power cords, USB cords, VGA cords, each one is assigned to its own device. One USB cord works with one device but not with another. One power cord works with one device but not with another. One PSU (SMPS wall wart) will work with one device but not with another. I got tired of all that. I try to match things and keep them together after that. It saves a lot of trouble.The PSU for the hard disk drive adapter has its own two wire power cord.If you assign the power cord to the device then it does not matter if the cord is weak as long as it is good enough for the device.As you say, in this case the ground is neither needed nor used. The whole thing is floating and the output side and the disk drive will be grounded through the USB cable to the computer (assuming the computer is grounded).

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 07:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 31, 2019, 07:27:11 pmYes that is a good idea! As you can see from this example, even though the power cord is marginal and has fake information on it, for the specific use intended (used with this particular power adapter that is made for the hard disks) it is suitable. The power adapter doesn't make use of the ground anyways, so that it doesn't matter that the cord doesn't have one. And the current rating on the power supply says it is < 1A, again well within the miniscule amount of copper in those 2 conductors.I just don't like that they chose to use the "format" of a normal 3-conductor power cord that fits the IEC C13 connector, and then decided to fake the label on it (or use one from a faked supplier). Many people would not follow your practice of keeping cords with the devices they come from. That is a wise move!But most people might just "bin" the extra cords (like I do) into a scrap bin... and then when I need to use it for something, grab it and plug it in. That's not going to happen anymore! I've learned my lesson! Especially since it uses a C13 connector which is widely used on many other devices, and I have lots of legitimate C13 power cords, I never thought to check. Now I'll have to.Look at all of these other connector types they could have used:I'm not sure if these would be any better, but for example if they used something like a C7, they are not grounded so right away that would eliminate one possible misuse. Second, perhaps they pick one typically used on smaller devices so even if someone decides to re-purpose the cord, it will go into something that doesn't draw much power (like a little portable radio, calculator or something like that). Now I'm making excuses for them... but there is no excuse. Maybe they have in the factory a machine that churns out IEC C13 type 3-prong power cords by the millions... and it is the cheapest possible option if all they change is the wire, it is cheaper than if they try to re-tool the machine to make other type ends? No, another excuse... I can't come up with any legitimate reason here. Cheapness of the power cord contents I understand... but the terminal ENDS of the cord I still don't get why they chose IEC C13 type with a ground connection when it is useless. Seems like it would cost more to do that than using 2-prong ends.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 08:33:12 pm
content: The only reason I can think of is that the same case is used for other PSU models.Again, when I buy at such really low prices I do not expect much in the way of quality. If I need quality and reliability I expect to pay more.With repairs and modifications I have had mine working for many years now.I have also bought enclosures with adapters to convert an internal drive into an external USB drive.Old drives are pretty much free and make good backup storage. The more the better.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 08:43:39 pm
content: Caveat emptor, especially when buying cheap stuff from China.In this case it's an obvious fake. For less obvious cases, you can check the content of the wire. Use a magnet to see if it's copper coated steel. Use a cigarette lighter to see if it's copper coated aluminum (solid copper wire won't be affected by the flame, aluminum will melt and droop).

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 08:57:46 pm
content: You should only buy brand names of recognizable quality:

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on July 31, 2019, 08:43:39 pmJust measure resistance. Non destructive and tells if cable is good or fake crap.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:19:44 pm
content: Typical Chinese shit products, the only reason they get away with it is its sold over the net and people think they are getting a bargain because it's cheap. Golden rule is don't buy cheap Chinese smps, power cables or mains powered products unless it's made to spec in a known name brand factory. If you absolutely must then inspect it and test it, but don't trust it.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 31, 2019, 09:00:56 pmThat works in theory but you need a meter that uses a Kelvin connection and is accurate down to fractions of an ohm. You'd be surprised at how many people think that they can measure low resistance like this with an ordinary two wire meter. The lead resistance of my kick-it-around work-a-day meter is 0.8 Ohms each so trying to measure something like this would be pointless.You have to wonder why the Chinese do things like this? How much money can they actually being saving by leaving out that tiny amount of copper?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 09:57:29 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on July 31, 2019, 09:19:44 pmStrongly disagree. I have bought several of these disk to USB adapters and enclosures for anywhere between $2 and $7 or $8. Even though some have needed repairs they are all working fine after several years of use. It's not that I thought I was getting a bargain. It WAS a bargain. It may not be for people who want better quality or who do not have the knowledge I have but they were definitely a very good bargain for the prices I paid.For me they are better value for money than the equivalent bought in Amazon which would cost twice as much.It is no more "shit" than flying cattle class when you can fly first class. You get what you pay for.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2019, 11:33:13 pm
content: China keeps making super cheap products because that's what a lot of people want... when push comes to shove, few can afford the best of everything......you have to prioritize!

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 12:15:29 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 31, 2019, 09:57:29 pmIf I was flying economy I would not expect to buy a defective or dangerous product. The fact you admit to have to repair things yourself is justification alone, most people won't and just bin it. I'm not saying cheaper products shouldn't exist though. It's the fraudulent, dangerous and defective ones that are being sold is the issue, where it ends up after being thrown out is another issue.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 12:31:19 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 31, 2019, 09:57:29 pmThat is true, I am still using the actual DATA-Connector cable part of my original kit that hooks up to hard drives. It has USB on one end, and the other end is this funny looking multi-port-adapter block that connects to SATA and 2 kinds of IDE connectors. When I read a laptop hard drive I don't need any power, it runs it off the SATA connector alone which gets power from the USB 5V. But when I plug in a normal PC hard drive that takes either a regular SATA power or one of those Molex 4-pin cables (requiring both 5V and 12V), I need to have an external power source.... and since the one in the kit died I have been resorting to using a scavenged PC PSU with pins shorted to trick it into turning on.So other than the power supply, that cheap $7 Chinese Hard Drive reading kit actually has been doing very well and I'm happy to pay for another one... knowing the PSU is garbage and I have to use my own, the rest of the kit is actually worth it. I would probably buy another kit and chuck the power cable/supply straight into the garbage.I got tired of dragging a PC PSU around every time I wanted to power my drives, so I was able to recently pick up one of these for next to nothing at Sayal:http://www.sayal.com/STORE/View_SPEC.asp?SKU=228644They are on sale for under $6 Canadian... I had to wire up a grounded mains input and a few Molex connectors on the output to bridge to a standard 4-pin like you'd find in a PC, and I have a Molex-to-SATA power cable that came with the original kit. So now I have no problem powering my larger drives. I may end up picking up a few more of these power supplies... they output 3.3, 5, +/-12V and are good for powering a drive but not enough to run a PC (they are only about 100W... maybe some thin PC's these days with SSD and very low power needs may work). This power supply is built well, has good quality caps, it is simply a superb deal but needs a bit of work to build an enclosure and wire up the pins to some connectors. But for such a low price for a nice supply like this it's worth it.Here's my hack job so far (my first time crimping ends and constructing Molex cables):

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:12:48 am
content: Quote from: edy on August 01, 2019, 12:31:19 amI have repaired a couple of them, the others are still going good. The ones I repaired needed (IIRC) output capacitor replacement which is simple to do. No reason to throw them away. The cases are glued together and you have to cut them to open them. After the repair a couple of nylon ties hold them together. This is a very common form of failure in many SMPS and I have repaired countless numbers in all sorts of electronic devices as well as stand-alone PSUs. You can buy expensive consumer electronics which can fail the same way. It is an easy repair and no reason to throw things away.The PSU of the computer I am using right now developed a similar problem of needing output capacitors replacement. To confirm the diagnosis I thought I would experiment and connect some capacitors outside the PSU, at the output cables. This way I did not have to open the PSU, just connect the capacitors to a free PSU connector. After doing this the PSU worked flawlessly ... and has been working like that for like five years because I never got around to doing the permanent repair. ... Oh, man, I just checked and it is there, indeed, but the amount of dust inside the computer is astounding.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 11:10:49 am
content: Quote from: edy on August 01, 2019, 12:31:19 amIt seems that not a single wire is crimped correctly, insulation is not crimped at all.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 11:49:14 am
content: I'm pretty sure you can get usb-sata adapters without a power supply but with a barrel jack for 12V in. What I did was just buy an unpowered usb-sata adapter and solder on two wires for 12V input.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 11:55:30 am
content: Quote from: OwO on August 01, 2019, 11:49:14 amI use them mostly for IDE-ATA drives where you need 5 and 12V.Yes, there are many ways to do this. For the price I paid for my adapters and their PSUs I think I got very good value for money.For people whose time is worth a lot they have more expensive solutions better adapted to their needs. Probably those people are not messing with this kind of thing anyway.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 12:10:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 01, 2019, 11:10:49 amYes it's pretty bad... I need to redo this... I had no idea what I was doing. Fortunately I have a few more connectors around so I can practice!

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 02:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on July 31, 2019, 04:31:58 pmYou ignored that the length of the wire plays an important role, next to cross sectional area regarding the current rating. There are downgrades possible based on length.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 06:10:26 am
content: What I find weird about stuff like this is that it seems to me it would actually be MORE effort for them to do this. They are already running factories to make legit cords, why not just run a bunch of extra batches for their own use? That's basically how they make off brand stuff like iphones etc. I mean, why not. The tooling is already setup and everything.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 08:26:31 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 03, 2019, 06:10:26 am"Legit"? I don't understand your question.The factory makes cords to order and quotes prices according to materials used. A cord with less copper is going to be cheaper than a cord with more copper. That is true in China, in America and everywhere else in between and I don't see how that raises any questions."Already running factories"? This is like saying "hey, since you are already roofing my neighbor's house you might as well roof mine for free. Just keep on roofing."

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 02:47:26 pm
content: It is still odd they add a cable that is not legal in most countries - they could as well sell the unit without any cable. At least in Europe or the US there are plenty of such cable around and they are easily available if a spare is really needed.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 03:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on August 03, 2019, 02:47:26 pmMost people in western countries have not the slightest clue regarding how grounding works. What makes you think some guy in China has any more clue? All he knows is that three prong looks better and makes the product look better while using two wires, something you can't see from the outside, saves money. Who knows if the guys making and selling the USB adapters are being swindled by some guy selling them the cables. It's not like the last guy in the chain is the one necessarily doing the swindling.

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 04:56:28 pm
content: @edyI have an almost identical HD adapter as yours. I just checked the power cable for the PSU and it does have a proper ground.I think the real issue, as you mentioned in you post. is not that the PSU actually need the ground pin or not, but that the cable could be used in another application that actually needs it for safety.It is negligent and unsafe to allow these on the market. Similar to my power cable on a Lipo battery charger where the PSU stopped working due to a break near the middle of the cable. Highly unusual.... Once opened the "copper" wires were the thickness of a hair... Just imagine using it one a higher current device.These should be stopped at the border or banned unless they have proper UL/CSA type certifications. I now try very much to buy stuff that is not from China these day but it is not obvious how to avoid it, including counterfeit PSU.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: richnormand on August 03, 2019, 04:56:28 pmNon-compliant items would not be allowed to be imported commercially but if a private person wants to buy something and import it themselves, what are you going to do? Set up a procedure to inspect every little packet and every little item on every little person who comes into the country?You wanna buy crap you can buy crap. You want quality and warranty? Then buy from a reputable importer.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:32:36 pm
content: What I hate is that this stuff is allowed to come from China, but if someone made this here, it would not be allowed. Then to add insult to injury stuff from China is tax free and shipping is also free. The government literally encourages to buy stuff from overseas instead of locally because of how things are setup. If I make an electronic device here and try to sell it it needs to meet all sorts of very expensive and complicated requirements and certification, will cost a lot to ship, meanwhile China can ship all sorts of garbage here for free. They are also protected from any liabilities if anything goes wrong which is not true for someone who sells stuff locally.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 06:45:31 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 03, 2019, 05:32:36 pmWhy are you buying stuff you don't like? Why don't you just buy quality products and quit complaining?Your post is very misinformed but I don't want to get, yet again, into the whole political China thing. You can lobby your representatives to start a commercial war against China if you feel like it.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 06:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 03, 2019, 05:32:36 pmIt's the importer of the product that's responsible for following any product quality regulations or required certifications of the destination, NOT the exporter. If you buy directly from China, YOU are the importer, and it's on YOU to make sure your contract with the seller includes meeting quality requirements. And if you happen to be a local reseller, YOU may be the one they'll come after if your product burns down someones house.

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 07:08:52 pm
content: @soldar"Non-compliant items would not be allowed to be imported " Period.Once reported the shipper should be banned. Killing people for profit attitude."YOU are the importer," This is NOT what I wanted to import, it is misrepresentation."You can lobby your representatives to start a commercial war against China if you feel like it. " Funny how many countries are leaning that way these days....@Nusa"It's the importer of the product that's responsible for following any product quality regulations"Yep and this is why I pretty well stopped buying that stuff from China. Nearly impossible to return (prohibitive cost/barriers and last time they denied they ever got it) and cheating on product description seemed to be rampant.

author: stevelup
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 08:14:12 pm
content: There is absolutely no defence for manufacturing a power cable with a three pole plug at both ends, but only using two core cable.It's just indefensible. I cannot understand how anyone could argue otherwise. It is just plain dangerous.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 08:33:54 pm
content: Quote from: richnormand on August 03, 2019, 07:08:52 pmI am not sure I understand the concept of blaming others for your own transgressions. If it is unlawful to import non-compliant articles into a country, the responsible party is the one doing the importation, not the party who made an item in another country.Some people do not understand the concept of sovereign country. Other countries are not subject to the laws of America or Canada. They have their own laws and their own enforcement. How about that? Huh?America wants to punish some Chinese guy in China? On what grounds does America have jurisdiction?In any case, good luck "banning" eBay shippers. There are millions and they could burn eBay accounts one after another. You'd just have to ban international sales on eBay.Would people at the border also be subject to strict scrutiny? When I travel to China can I bring some crap back? Or do I have to file for an importation license and prove the crap meets all relevant standards?While we are at it we could forbid people making their own cables at home. (Have you seen some of the crimping going on? They should require a crimping license.)Or working on their own home electrical systems or working on their own cars. People doing their own work results in worse crap than importing a bad cable from China.Good luck prohibiting stupidity.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 03, 2019, 06:45:31 pmHow am I suppose to know those details until I have the item in hand? I would gladly buy products made here that are of good quality if I could, but almost everything is made in China and quality is usually questionable even on the stuff found in local stores, which will tend to be slightly higher quality than what you find online. You really have to go out of your way to try to find something that is true good quality, you won't find it in a normal store either. Of course it really depends on the product, some products will be easier to find of good quality than others. Vehicles for example will generally use decent quality parts and meet standards. But if you need some oddball device sometimes you don't even have a choice and have to order on ebay or amazon because it's not something common enough.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on August 03, 2019, 06:59:04 pmWhich is crazy that it works that way. It should go on the one who makes it. It only seems to apply to china though, because if you try to make a product here and sell it here, nobody will let you unless it meets all the safety standards. But someone from China can export it here and then even drop the liability on me to add insult to injury. The system is designed to discourage local manufacturing.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 03:54:16 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 03, 2019, 10:19:24 pmAs the importer of the product you are supposeD to know what you are importing. You are shifting your own responsibility to others. If you buy bad stuff locally you have rights as a consumer which you do not have when you buy direct from China.Still, did you try to return it? Because I am sure eBay would allow you to return such a faulty item. If you did not return it I am guessing you were satisfied with your purchase.When you buy from an importer it is the importer's responsibility to make sure the imported items meet all requirements. Often they can be fooled too but they take the hit as a business, not the final consumer.Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 03, 2019, 10:22:15 pmYou are just repeating stupid, ignorant rants. No. What you are saying is NOT true. An importer is just as responsible as a manufacturer for the products complying with all regulations. Please stop repeating ignorant, hateful misinformation.People in a position of privilege blaming others worse off for their perceived problems. China is not the cause of your problems. Stop whining. If you don't like Chinese goods then just don't buy them but quit whining and saying you are forced to buy them because you can't find alternatives.You can buy similar products at your local computer store or on Amazon, etc. It will cost more because they are responsible for the quality of the product. You just want the quality assurance without paying for it. No, you want something then you pay for it. But you can't expect to check into a Motel 6 and get the service and amenities of a five star hotel. It doesn't work that way.A merchant has to warranty the products he sells comply with certain standards, are fit for purpose, etc. Whether the products are imported from China, imported from France, or made around the corner, is totally irrelevant. Let us just stop spreading misinformation that there is somehow a conspiracy to favor China.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 11:05:44 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 03, 2019, 10:22:15 pmIt is really, really difficult to make consumer goods at a low price point, and still make money off it. All retail stores / distribution chains in Western countries add enormous markups to all products in order to cover costs including wages, taxes, real estate, medical insurance, etc. etc. as well as skimming a profit. The "cut" that the manufacturer gets is typically only a minor part of the retail price.The "secret" of China is based on not having all those costs loading their products, so they can sell stuff at prices much closer to the real cost of manufacturing. We can't resist the bargains... but they come at the cost of hollowing out our own societies which depend on being able to load retail prices with extraneous costs.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 11:30:47 am
content: Buying such stuff from China without proper UL or similar testing is a risk. Without the proper marks (or if in doubt the marks a legit) one has to essentially test such item before use. If enough people would do that and complain about it chances are there would be less crap coming in. With a unsafe item this may not need to actually send them back - just a complaint / case at ebay or similar should be all it takes.Usually it is the importer who is to blame, either for stupidity or intentionally importing unsafe goods. In this case the power supply without any marks should be a warning not to use it untested.A cable marked 3x0.5mm² with 3 pole plugs and actually having only 2 wires and no ground connection should be illegal even by Chinese standards.The stupid thing is that shipping from China (or similar) is so cheap, partially because of old postal treaties. The actual costs tend to be much higher, for transport inside the US/Canada alone. Higher (more reasonable) transport costs could already reduce the odd direct imports of cheap items by users. So maybe Mr Trump should think about some minimum $5 customs fee for such packages instead of tariffs on other goods.At least in Germany customs sometimes has a good look at imported products - if it's know unsafe or missing requited markings as the CE label they sometimes actually stop things coming in, even if just private buys. This is a reason why you sometimes find notes that a certain product does not ship to Germany - that usually has a reason. So even in another country I would think twice before getting such items.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 12:21:54 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on August 04, 2019, 11:30:47 amUm, no. ePacket is something negotiated and implemented relatively recently by China with 39 different countries.https://magenticians.com/what-is-epacket-shipping/https://epacketexpress.com/epacket-shipping-countries-how-long/https://www.quora.com/What-is-an-ePacket-delivery-from-Chinahttps://www.oberlo.com/blog/what-is-epacket-deliveryFast, cheap and efficient shipping is something crucial for commerce and economic prosperity. In America Fedex, UPS, etc. work very well. China has recognized this and is doing its part to promote fast and efficient shipping. In the meanwhile the EU is a mess in this respect. And the same can be said about payments and banking.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 01:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 04, 2019, 11:05:44 amFrom manufacturing to distribution to retailing to the consumer the economy is much more complex than most people realize. It is easy for the simplistic, ignorant and politicians to identify easy solutions to very complex situations.I never get tired of quoting H. L. MenckenQuoteChina and other developing countries have an advantage in manufacturing because of lower labor costs. But manufacturing is only a part of the cost of the final product sold to the consumer. Distribution and retailing are areas where America and Europe are far ahead of China. You can often buy a pair of made in China sneakers cheaper in America than in China precisely because distribution and retailing are much more inefficient in China. The big importers and distributors in America and Europe have this down to a science.Apple products are made in China but the value added in China is minimal. Most of the price paid by the consumer does not go to China, it goes to America. Development, design, distribution, etc.Another issue, as you mention, is taxes and other compulsory costs. We all want to enjoy the benefits of the welfare state but for that the State has to collect taxes.It is just easy to blame China, or Germany or a certain company. People mostly are talking out of their asses and have not the slightest clue about the issues.In Spain we have LIDL stores, a large German company and a lot of people like to bitch and complain. The issue seems to be a generic "prices are too high, they are taking advantage of us".One guy was complaining that they sold a certain item cheaper in Germany than in Spain, which he said was unfair. I reminded him that "freedom" means they do not have any obligation to offer the consumer any product at any price. They offer what they think will work for them and you as a consumer are free to take it or leave it.I suggested that if Lidl is charging more in Spain it may be because they incur higher costs in Spain. Rentals, taxes, energy, etc. who knows. They should be free to run their business as they see fit and we, as consumers, are not entitled to demand they set their prices to our satisfaction.I get really tired of people whining and moaning that the world is a bad place because of some company, some people or some country. No, we live in the best world that ever existed. We have products and services at our disposal that were unthinkable just a few decades back. And instead of appreciating it and being grateful we bitch because we are afraid poorer people might want a fairer share of the pie.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 03:19:02 pm
content: Take, for example, the cost of mail/package delivery, as @Kleinstein mentioned. In the West, we load the price of sending a package with a lot of extras that are not related to the actual underlying cost of delivery. Our mail services are priced as high as possible, to the point just before too many people stop using the service and hire their own courier instead. This is why it costs USD20+ to send a small packet to China, but less than a dollar to send it the other way.We can safely assume that out of the $20 you pay to send something to China, less than $1 of that is actually paid to the Chinese postal service based on the international agreements...It is not realistic for any of us in the West to compete with that, the playing field just isn't level. So, we have to hide behind customs walls, quotas, rules of origin, quality conditions imposed by the importing country on the exporting countries (as we are discussing in this thread), sanitary and phytosanitary conditions, packaging conditions, labeling conditions.... and so on!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 03:37:21 pm
content: I don't know much about the issue but it could well be that ePacket is subsidized because I find it hard to see how shipping could be so low.And shipping inside the USA, by UPS, Amazon, Fedex, etc. I find quite efficient and is quite cheap for big accounts.Inside Europe it is the worst of both worlds: complicated, inefficient and expensive. Same thing with payments and banking. These are things that need to be resolved.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 05:52:34 pm
content: Yeah there is subsidies for epackets from China. Some kind of agreement basically to make it free. It's not right though, if anything there should be subsidies for LOCAL products to encourage makers and local manufacturing, but the government does not want any of that.It's also not worthwhile returning something you bought from China because it will cost you more to ship it than what you paid for it. Heck the majority of people who do buy won't even know there is anything wrong with the product. Most people don't take anything apart they just buy it and use it. We are kind of an exception to that rule. The free shipping, and the fact that they don't need to follow any safety standards, only works 1 way. If you wanted to sell to China (or any country) not only would the shipping be high but your products would need to meet any standards they may have or it would get stopped at the border. The whole system is designed so that China is always at an advantage and it's flooding the market with dangerous goods.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 09:16:16 pm
content: The postal rates are agreed via the Universal Postal Union - the third oldest international organization and run by the UN these days.On the face of it, the UPU has failed to respond quickly enough to the development of cross border e-commerce. The United States have resigned from the UPU effective October 17, 2019... so we can expect significant postage increases from China to USA are already in the pipeline (in addition to the tariffs). An era is probably coming to an end...

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 10:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 05, 2019, 09:16:16 pmThat remains to be seen. This is another example of Trump-style international negotiations, which comes down to change the rules or we hit the highway. And when it comes to actually hitting the highway, he backs off at the last minute at least half the time, while simultaneously declaring victory in some lame fashion. A lot of the unintended consequences are very easy to see coming, such as disrupted mail and packages to overseas troops this Xmas, and ongoing economic issues throughout an election year.But IF it does come to pass, expect USPS international mail to and from EVERY country to get more expensive, since they'll no longer be able to use the UPU infrastructure for postal services, and will need their own parallel system. Never mind requiring independent agreements with every country they deliver to, assuming they're willing to deal at all. The alternative services (Fedex, UPS, etc) will be in hog heaven, of course, since they have their own networks. The military will likely end up having to handle APO and FPO addressed mail themselves, but expect lots of problems there as they get up to speed.And yes, this branch of the subject has the potential to get very political. I'd advise sticking to facts in evidence if you discuss it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 11:41:28 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 05, 2019, 09:16:16 pmI don't understand this. Can you provide some cites? Because it seems ePacket was negotiated and agreed by China and the USA. Why would the USA pull out of the ePacket agreement? I am not saying they wouldn't behave erratically, unpredictably, arbitrarily and capriciously, because that seems to be the order of the day. I am just saying I have not heard anything about America withdrawing from the ePacket agreement. Any cites?ETA: Found some news myself:https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/10/trump-changes-terminal-dues-and-epacket-rates/573337/https://www.ecommercebytes.com/C/blog/blog.pl?/pl/2019/1/1547085738.html

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 01:32:52 am
content: Look at the label. Do not buy me is written all over it ! What are Chinese using ? Google translator ?Hazardousarea, Servilceable, Zonedangeruse, Personal.Mother of God !

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 02:09:26 am
content: Words won't kill you... but look at the strain relief broken from the case exposing the wires.... extrapolate the rest for quality.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:27:40 am
content: There will always be buyers, if the price is cheap enough!I recall taking apart a Chinese USB charger and finding a single transistor handling everything... - it didn't meet its 500mA spec, but the fact that it actually worked at all (it delivered 100mA at 5V reasonably competently) was nothing short of amazing!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 10:21:13 am
content: Quote from: richnormand on August 06, 2019, 02:09:26 amExtrapolate nothing. There are no strain reliefs in the world which will hold up to some people and that includes my wife and her family. They just say the cables are bad quality and break in no time while the same cables will last me for years. Some people just need military grade, bombproof devices.I see people carrying a PSU like that hanging from the cord and then say it is bad quality when the cord breaks. I spend a lot of time repairing cords and the fact that they were bought or even made in America has little to do with how easily or often they break.I recently replaced my wife's USB mouse cord with a heavy duty USB cable because the nice, thin cables just couldn't stand up to the rough treatment.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 03:34:41 pm
content: Quote from: M4trix on August 06, 2019, 01:32:52 amI always lol at this stuff. I remember when CFL lights inside your computer was a big thing and I bought some lamps to put in there. There was a small inverter to power the lamps and it said "Caution this device is working correctly"And a bunch of other chinglish.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 08:27:04 pm
content: Wouldn't a 2-prong IEC C7/C8 coupler cord or even IEC C1/C2 (even with the same miniscule amount of copper) have been cheaper than to produce a 3-prong "faked" C13/C14 type cord? Not to mention the use of a 3-prong C13/14 type coupler on the power supply itself (that doesn't even hook up to the ground on the PCB)?Seems like the C13/C14 solution used in my cheap fake would cost more to make simply because of the ends... use the same cord with almost no copper in it... just tack on a cheaper connector. I would think the cheapest option would have been to use a C1/C2 or C7/C8 if cost is an issue.... save the cost of an extra pin on the power cord, and less rubber/plastic. Have a look here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320C1/C2:C7/C8:Also with the above cord couplers (especially C1/C2) may be less likely to be used on something with higher current draw capability. Seems C1/C2 are typically used for charging up rechargeable shavers which likely do not draw too much current when charging.Whereas I would be able to plug in the C13/C14 in so many more high-current draw devices (computers, servers) and expect ground as well:It's obvious that this product I bought is cheap and I don't expect a high quality cord. I am just curious as to why use a C13/C14 when it is completely unexpected and unnecessary, only to fake the label on it, when a cheaper cord like a C1/C2 or C7/C8 would have sufficed, even with as tiny piss-ant amount of copper in it also.Why bother to fake something that is not relevant at all to me buying the product? Was it to try to show that there is more "quality" because people assume a C13/C14 cord-powered device is more legit compared to a C1/C2 or C7/C8? Who thinks that?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 12:01:59 am
content: Quote from: edy on August 06, 2019, 08:27:04 pmCord you received most likely was included by seller because China uses different plug. Just as most of other stuff which was originally made for Chinese but is sold worldwide by ebay and aliexpress sellers.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 12:13:47 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 06, 2019, 03:34:41 pmThat's not Google Translate, it's someone who doesn't know a single word of English trying to copy the forms of the characters and getting it (mostly) right... I wonder if the German on that label is just as broken.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 03:19:08 pm
content: The German part is a little better but not much: under should be unter and Umstanden should be Umständen. However not getting the ä right is not so rare as it's a special letter. The use of upper case is correct.It could still be something like a web translation and than do a manual typing, missing some spaces.For me the odd thing is: why add a crap cable if one could sell the unit without a cable nearly as well. The plug at the power supply looks pretty standard - the input side differs between countries.AFAIK the smaller C7/C8 plug could get away with a little thinner cable, but at least in Europe still 0.75 mm² minimum.