booties in boeing fuel tanks - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 06:22:08 pm
content: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/02/22/0812248/after-inspecting-50-airplanes-boeing-found-foreign-object-debris-in-35-fuel-tanksI did hear this is a commonish problem for people scared of label makers and excel

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 06:57:24 pm
content: Nice.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 06:58:13 pm
content: 400/50/35 (planes waiting for delivery/inspected planes/contaminated planes), that's just pathetic. Makes you wonder about the rest of the worldwide fleet (~400 planes delivered).Heads should be rolling.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 07:31:08 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on February 22, 2020, 06:58:13 pmthis is actually a common problem with aerospace, like satellite thrust systems often have wadding from pipe work cleaning left in them that causes problems.But its 100% a management/accountability problem. You simply need detailed inspection and high wages (employee satisfaction) to do this job right. Ancient Egyptians can do this (ok maybe they need a boroscope) if they wanted to. All you need to do is send ANOTHER guy to look at it after the first guy comes out covered in sweat that did all the work etc. Yes, to see if there is a fucking piece of cotton or scrap of caulk left behind, for 30$ an hour.I read the main complaints are that its uncomfortable angles, pain in the ass work, etc.. all that means is that you need more people to do inspections. Shorter work times, more breaks, time off, more people. Aerospace is supposed to be good at doing this! It's a 'simple' job that requires more care then terrestrial work.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 08:17:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 22, 2020, 07:31:08 pmOh, yes, certainly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the workers. I'm blaming the system where there is not someone whose job is to count the tools at the end of work day and pester everybody to return the tools at their proper place as soon as they're done with it. And not allow anybody to leave the area without their boot covers (if they are supposed to have them).I know it's hard sometimes, and I will admit I'm guilty of that myself, but I know where all my tools are (somewhere on the workbench, of course, probably). Also, my work is far from life or death serious.Yes, this sort of stuff can happen (and does with surprising frequency) even during surgeries where a piece of equipment or gauze is left in the patient.http://www.asaabstracts.com/strands/asaabstracts/abstract.htm?year=2013&index=8&absnum=4400That's why they use (or at least there is the tech that allows the usage of) barcode counting system. What goes in, must come out. Why is Boeing not using something like that (or if they do, why is it so ineffective?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 08:20:47 pm
content: I was promised booties. This thread is a disappointment.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 09:19:34 pm
content: this probobly happens because someone got too little supplies or thought they are good for longer (if you work with edge tools alot like scrapers) you can see they often get gummed up, burred,.. same with rags you lose 'cleaning power' in a rag.. so it might happen they underestimate how much stuff they need for a job , then there is a shortage of labled equipment and it has to go out and it seems ridiculous to wait hours for stuff to be inventoried so they just throw extra supplies at the problem.I notice this ALOT with stuff like polishing pads, cleaning pads, wipes, brillos, scotch brite, sand paper, etc.^ in addition to everything else.. inspection should cover this ANYWAY. But you know how people are with things like pens, paper towels, etc.. there always seems to be a shortage and use criticism. Either someone wearing down sand paper to optical flat or someone replacing it after 2 swipes. Trying to define it its stupid because its mostly cheap and can be easily cleaned up. But management is going to try to start a 3 billion dollar work study program to see how many times you can use a piece of sand paper rather then hire a guy to look at stuff left on the floor............... you know because ts supposed to be like your kitchen (in reality, they have 3 maids come by because they have bonus money from doing a 6 man job with 3 people with some overtime sprinkles). And the guy using the knife worn down to a 1mm blunt tip and 80 grit paper worn down silk smooth is going to get the best treatment too................ I can see these guys running a hospital with masonry dimensions on the scapels lol

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 09:35:24 pm
content: How about burning down everything and a trial for the managers that made it such a mess?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 09:51:52 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on February 22, 2020, 09:35:24 pmgood time to do it with the downtime from the virus and china flight.. unfortunately its usually not easy because there is billions of dollars of cash going through these people and systems, and there are multinational interests and economies depend on it.. you could shut down a country if you shake things up too much at onceon the other hand, its air travel............. and you can take out a plane possibly with a fucking paper towel and razor blade pretty stupid, very bad things happen because of flow problems and chipped pump gears, particulate filter is not meant to seperate razor blade from kerosene

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2020, 10:10:10 pm
content: It's not unusual for other businesses to discard everything from the same lot if enough fails on inspection. Says me, with roles in both in the manufacture and the inspection of such goods to be stuck into humans.)Doctors kill single persons, technicians tens, managers hundreds.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 04:32:07 am
content: sounds like everything with a fuel tank is vulnerable, I don't know if you can just say one boeing plane design has some kind of insane fuel tank design that induces fear in mammals so bad that it makes technicians run away screaming with booties flyingSo, rejection of boeing products in general does sound good (not just one plane). Unless they managed to make a ghost trap by accidentDrop your tools and run/crawl so fast that you loose your shoes in a tight vent. Where have I seen this scene before? I believe its a scene in one of the old james bond where he gets chased by the robowelder in the oil pipe. He might have literally lost a shoe.. Maybe some shoes were lost in the prometheus, the nostromo and the auriga.In reality though, its probably sticky crap on the ground yanking the booties off. I do wonder however if there are any reports of ominous growling and other spooky noises.I will say, if I see shoes left on the ground in odd places, I do get a bit concerned. Thats something that should make the hairs stand.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 08:25:38 am
content: I too attended this post for the booties thinghoping to beat any Moderator 'Imperial Entanglements'Sounds to me boeing have either disgruntled competition, suss employeesor old school 'other peoples money' using ratbags that want to buy them out cheap, after they get a bad repSo what else is new in 2020 ?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 08:46:22 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on February 23, 2020, 08:25:38 ami don't think its anything malicious, this happens at NASA all the time but no one cares because its satellites and no one dies (maybe congressmen's heart rate is elevated). They have to clean a bunch of complicated pipe work after testing rocket engines and end up leaving cleaning wipes in them. it's easy to fix it with inspection (they cannot leave the flushing fluid in the pipes because of corrosion and apparently heating them does not work for some reason). I think its still gummy or something after the flush and you just need to scrub it a bit.IRRC there is a prelaunch test, and it tends to die during that phase, when a specially woven cleaning wipe and possibly bit of stainless steel rod hits a turbo pump or somethingthink the andromeda strain where they are looking for contamination on the satellite

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 10:23:57 am
content: The good thing it is not intentional as it was in the early 70s carmakers where bored pot smoking assembly line workers put rocks in the most expensive cars fuel tank.But human mistakes do happen, even surgeons leave sometimes instruments and wipes behind per accident

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 10:28:46 am
content: After having worked for several of these large companies, I see the same general pattern. Managers constantly trying to cut costs. Older employees who know how to do things properly are steadily lost, and the skill set of the company is eroded. The culture becomes entirely focused around reducing cost, managers seem to hope that quality happens by some sort of "magic".However, I think it is inevitable in a free market. The rule says that in a free market, product cost reduces to that of the the lowest cost producer. The corollary is that the quality reduces to that of the lowest cost producer. This is driven by consumers, in this case airlines. They can't charge a premium simply because they use Boeing, because their customers (the passengers) don't care, and will buy the cheapest seat.I have spent many days in meetings battling with managers to persuade them their latest brilliant idea will not save time or money in the long run, and will probably make it worse. I nearly always lose, and then of course are part of the team trying to pull the project out of the shit at the last minute. The managers busy themselves writing reports, which they can bias towards blaming the workers for having done a bad job (aka "poor execution"), or the customer for providing inadequate requirements, whatever the reason, it's never the fault of the managers.Boeing pushed their luck and got caught out. But whatever the fallout from that is, it is going to do nothing to change the industry trend.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 04:37:18 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 23, 2020, 10:23:57 am?

author: frogg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 04:57:34 pm
content: The lead author of that story is someone whose full time job right now is to basically crap on Boeing:https://muckrack.com/andrew-tangelBefore that, he was a media shill for Caterpillar. Before that, he was working as a beat reporter about the NYC MTA.Keep in mind that in the first year, 737 MAX's flew 41,797 flights, logged 118,006 flight hours, and flew 6.5M passengers.Booties notwithstanding, it's good to take journalists with a grain of salt. Theyalwayshave angle.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 05:03:51 pm
content: you probably need to hire someone because who the hell is going to form a attack on giant industrial companies like caterpillar and boeing? especially when all their customers are probably locked into decades long service contracts and they are in bed with the government? Not exactly easy to fight a company that has ties to national defense and the nuclear program. The air force is talking shit about them its so badshoes in a fuel tank? thats like sneakers on a telephone pole its GHETTO. and caterpillar is not a great company either, listen to what old employees have to say about that place.. most people are happy to leave

author: frogg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 05:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 23, 2020, 05:03:51 pmRTFA, mate.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 05:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: frogg on February 23, 2020, 05:12:55 pmMaterials left behind include tools, rags andboot coverings, according to industry officials familiar with the details...Boeing also twice had to halt deliveries of the KC-46A military refueling tanker to the U.S. Air Force aftertools and ragswere found in planes after they had been delivered from its Everett factory north of Seattle.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 07:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 23, 2020, 10:28:46 amWhat do you do for a living then? Are you some kind of an owner's representative?Subordinate by definition must be less competent than a superior.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 08:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 23, 2020, 05:24:40 pm<willynelsonvoice>Good old shoe, good old shoe</willynelsonvoice>

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 08:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: Alti on February 23, 2020, 07:17:08 pmSuch youthful optimism!I wish it were so.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2020, 09:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: frogg on February 23, 2020, 04:57:34 pmRegardless Boeing does appear to have an issue with cutting corners and agencies trusting the Boeing name too much. It all reminds of some of the NASA disasters.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 12:06:07 am
content: I hit on Youtube Booty Zone to see what a Booty Twerk isand this is what I got"Content Warning,This video may be inappropriate for some users."Maybe better luck with booty planking?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2020, 12:42:34 am
content: its when a fat ass shakes so it decouples from the bone and each butt cheek has its own axis or rotationthink pronounced two joint pendulum system

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2020, 03:23:35 am
content: Quote from: Alti on February 23, 2020, 07:17:08 pmWhere on earth did you get that idea?!? Google the Peter principle.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2020, 10:47:30 am
content: D'oh! I think you're right, my sarcasm detector must have been on the fritz!

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2020, 11:15:19 am
content: The trend I see is described by Putt's Law:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putt%27s_Law_and_the_Successful_TechnocratQuoteBack in the old days, senior managers in an engineering company were former engineers, and often very good ones. If needed, they could go to the lab and actually do real work and teach younger staff. The problem with those guys is that they were not trained business managers, and often had little idea of finance. At one company, they had these engineering trained managers, butthey literally didn't know the cost of the products they were making. That was something for finance to "sort out". To stay in business you gotta know margins, ROI and all that other stuff. That is before "optimising shareholder returns".So what happened is that senior managers were recruited from business trained managers, who were on top of the finance from day 1. Unfortunately, these guys and gals know f*** all about engineering. As the old engineer-turned-managers retire, that leaves the engineers with no one to guide them, and no one to back up their decisions (aka "top cover"). Almost no one above had an engineering background, all the way up to the CEO.As we know, engineering is about details, but all the managers want to do now is reduce time and cost, regardless. They are completely unable to offer any advice about what a good solution should be, nor how to achieve it. They will always pick what has the lowest immediate time/cost. They reject anything that exceeds time/cost, until you propose a solution that cuts all the corners and has a high risk.Old IP is milked for far longer than it should, and the current generation of engineers struggles to maintain it, let alone generate a new design. All the knowledge has been lost as engineers are moved around and/or retire.I've also found that management are quite unable to diagnose poor management structure, or improve it. All they can think of is moving a project manager sideways, and pulling in someone new. You end up with a revolving door of managers, multiple managers fighting over the same people, new managers who know less about the project than the last one.Once the spiral of decline sets in, it seems unstoppable. Profitability continues to reduce until the business collapses or is sold off.The pattern at Boeing is exactly the same I've seen at other large engineering companies which trade on reputation and some good legacy products. It might take a decade or two, but you end up with Putts Laws. The engineers who know their stuff are routinely overruled by management, even though the managers don't have the knowledge to make a proper decision.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2020, 01:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 26, 2020, 10:47:30 amMe fail English often, here too...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2020, 01:34:55 pm
content: And sometime you miss the person that can oversee the entire (bigger) picture instead of the details.True story: a glass product was sold at the millions but the management wanted to reduce the cost. The question was put to the manufacturer who could reduce 25% of the glass volume by re-engineering the design without changing the look, in laymens terms: change the thickness of the glass on places where the mechanical strength can be lowered.Perfect and 1000 prototypes where flown in in flycrates packed in foam to the testlab, where they were tested rigourously for weeks and found to be OK.So the company ordered start of the production and the millions of products were being manufactured, packed and shipped to the customers, and >80% arrived broken.To cut the story short: They forgot to change the carton boxing packing material to compensate for the changed product.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2020, 05:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 26, 2020, 11:15:19 amThank you for the story, that still does not explain your attitude:Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 23, 2020, 10:28:46 amDid you battle with incompetent managers as an engineer or as a stock owner?I assumed that the former.It does not make sense for a subordinate engineer to battle with manager or playing game of persuasion. This is not a marriage. A superior assigns you to a project and you follow the assignment the best you can. Whether this is a brilliant idea or not is not a subordinate engineer's concern.Quote from: Alti on February 23, 2020, 07:17:08 pmAs for superior being more competent than subordinate - of course in the above case this is limited to managing, not engineering. Manager does not have to know or understand engineering to be better in managing than a subordinate engineer is in managing.However, just to be clear, if a manager makes engineering decisions without understanding the consequences of theese decisions, well, then again this is not a subordinate engineer's concern. I am sure the pesky manager has his own well paid boss and it is the boss that isthe only personqualified to deal with it.