My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:21:56 pm
content: This is my real life terminator/Data from Star Trek/Westworld type humanoid robots project. It is a long term project. I plan to post updates occasionally to share my progress and seek feedback, suggestions, advice, etc. So far I have plans to build Adam, Eve, and Abel robots. All of these are Bible characters. I want the robots to ultimately move like a human, be able to walk, run, jump, do chores, dance, do sports, have conversations realistically, paint, do sculpture, make more robots, etc.I plan to do most of the electronics custom - so custom microcontrollers, custom motor controllers, custom power supply, custom battery management system, custom sensor support circuitry, etc. I am a electronics beginner so guidance on these parts is welcomed.Robot Features PlannedI plan to start out making the right arm and hand, rigging them up with servo motors, connecting that up to a pc, and getting it to grasp. From there I will develop the head and torso just enough to be able to code the robot arm to make his other arm and the rest of his own body for me. The bot will have silicone skin and look realistic and move realistic. It will have artificial lungs for cooling. It will have spandex ligaments and cable drive systems to imitate muscles. It will have sensors to feel if it bumps into things and it will have webcam eyes. It will have a speaker in the mouth to speak with and the mouth will move to lipsync what it is saying. It will have facial expressions. It will have advanced artificial intelligence. It will run on battery and/or power cable depending on the situation.First of all, I ended up caving in and doing a full blown 3d model blueprint of the robot's entire skeletal structure to scale along with outer shape mesh and then modeled out every actuator cable "muscle" and labeled each of them and modeled all of its motors and placed them and modeled various other bits like the main onboard pc and cooling systems (artificial lungs and artificial heart). Also modeled its batteries and placed them. Only had to do half of the body since the other half of body is symmetrical. I realized that with the tight tolerances I'm dealing with, I had to make custom servos and custom pcbs for the servos control and custom pulley systems to "down-gear" the servos. I also realized that with such tight tolerances I needed to 3d model everything to figure out where to fit everything since it will all be a tight fit with little room for error and once I mount a servo, it is a real pain to move it later. The 3d modeling blueprint job was a major project in itself but well worth it in helping me visualize everything better and figure out where to locate everything specifically. I also made blueprints for the motor controller and microcontroller custom circuitry.I also purchased the main brains pc to be mounted in the torso. I even purchased cameras to be the eyes for it. The main brains pc will be a mini itx motherboard gaming pc basically.actual build I went with:Intel Core i5-10400 2.9 GHz 6-Core Processor - $165MSI MPG B560I GAMING EDGE WIFI Mini ITX LGA1200 Motherboard - $170G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory - $140Western Digital Blue SN550 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive - $99DC 12V input 300W high power pico DC-ATX 24Pin mini ITX - $20GOLF CART DC BUCK CONVERTER 20 AMP 48V 36V VOLT VOLTAGE REDUCER REGULATOR TO 12V - $20I will use 10 in series lithium batteries to produce 30v-42v input power into the 12v regulator which will feed the 300W atx 24pin mini ITX power supply. Note, however, that as with all power systems, I will have both a wall plug AC to DC converter custom power supply to run off wall power and a battery power supply to run off battery power so that the robot has multiple powering options - ie able to run off wall to assist its internal batteries while charging. It will have a retractable plug that comes out of its lower back to plug itself into wall outlets when it walks into a room and needs to recharge or run for extended periods while its batteries remain topped off for room changes or ventures into outdoors. It will have the ability to strap on a external battery backpack optionally for extended operation without access to AC power. This is useful for operations like sports or mowing the lawn. It will have multiple external battery backpacks so that it can have one charging while using the other for constant uptime.For the eye cameras I went with: ELP USB camera 1080p 2 megapixel, wide angle, low light x2 for $98.42This gaming pc in the chest of the robot will run all the AI and high level planning and movement decisions. This will communicate via USB to a series of Arduino mega barebones custom microcontrollers located throughout the robot's body in order to give movement instructions to the Arduinos and also retrieve sensor feedback from the Arduinos which will be monitoring joint angle positions with mini potentiometers, strain gauges on various pressure points to measure touch sensing, amp current measuring boards (acs712) to measure amount of power being drawn by motors for collision detection and weight of exertion estimation for holding things or w/e other interactions with environment are being detected, etc. So, many inputs will be retrieved by the main gaming pc and its AI systems will make decisions and make course corrections based on all this feedback it gets from sensory systems.Note: I did at one point begin sewing in MG996r servo motors into the arms of the robot only to realize only like 4 of these can fit in the entire arm due to their very non sleek profile and bulky form factor. The way hobby servos cram the motor control circuits, the gear system, the potentiometer, and the dc motors into a box forms a bulky shape that doesn't fit into my robot body design well at all. So I am creating custom servos where the control board, dc motor, down-gearing systems, and potentiometer is located throughout the robot anywhere space is available but not necessarily will they be located in the same location - we have flexibility to place them spread out wherever we want this way. This makes me able to fit like 25-30 motors into the robot's arm instead of only 4! Much more efficient use of space this way. Also, by using Archimedes style compact pulley down-gearing system rather than gears, I lower the sound the robot gives off significantly and save on space and weight. The pulley system I am planning to use was inspired by an episode of Gold Rush where they used a "pulley block" to pull a barge out of a river and this idea was expanded on and explained here:https://youtu.be/M2w3NZzPwOMOnce I eliminated all ideas of using commercial servos and went into building my own, I realized it is WAY WAY WAY cheaper to buy your own servo motor individual components and build your own custom servos than it is to buy commercial servos, ESPECIALLY once you get into really high powered stuff. For finger joints, I bought size 2430 brushless dc motors 5800kv 24amps 7.4v 200watts at $11/each and IRLR7843PBF n-channel mosfets as the main power switching for custom motor controllers. This mosfet is to-252 form factor and 161A continuous drain current and can handle 620a pulsed drain current. It's super small and flat and a very powerful selection to drive the motors. Arduino mega barebones (custom) will control the motor controllers. I will be using brushless motors exclusively, even for the smallest muscles. They are just so superior to brushed motors and quieter etc). I also bought little volume adjustment wheel potentiometers which I will customize and use to measure joint angles of all the robot's joints. For mid sized muscles, 2430 motors will be littered throughout the robot's body for most smaller muscles. Also will be using the slightly more powerful 1/16 scale RC brushless dc motors for many muscles in the robot as well which are 300w motors 12.6v 24amps at $11 each. Then for even more substantial muscles I'll be using size 3650 brushless dc motors 1/10 scale RC at 13v 69amps 900w 3900kv at $15/each (Ebay). For even bigger muscles I'll use 1/8 scale RC brushless dc motors size 3660 1200w 92a 13v at $19 each. Then for the very biggest muscles I'll use 4082 brushless dc motors at 36-52v 64a 3400w 930kv inrunner style typically used for electric skateboard scooters at $65 each . These will handle things like thighs and calves and being so big we will use not many of these only for special monster power muscles in the human body. The 4082 motors are not strong enough to replace a human quadricep alone, so each muscle of the quadricep with have a 4082 assigned so that like 4 of them represent all 4 muscles of the quadricep etc. This applies to all the muscles - multiple motors can be used to build up the necessary torque to match human strength and speed. The brushless dc motors are able to provide the best efficiency, power, low weight, run quietly, and can be precision controlled so they are amazing for this project and brushed motors are trash by comparison. For me to buy commercial servos that can put out power numbers like I just listed, I'd be spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars per servo. But since I'm just buying the motors and doing my own down-gearing, potentiometer installs, and my own control PCB systems, I save a fortune and this project is very reasonable to afford all of the sudden!BTW, I'll be using Windows as the operating system for the main pc in the robot's chest. By setting a very high process priority to the exes running the AI, Windows is able to act like a realtime operating system IMO. Plus I already have a large amount of code developed for windows operating system that can be reused for this project. This code comes from my past experience developing AI for video game botting.Also, I managed to figure out how to make a robot learn and think and communicate in English in a overarching philosophical way and have began to code this advanced AI system. This coding project will take decades and will all be coded from scratch in C++. I have wrapped my head around it and have already made huge progress on this. It took me some years to figure out where to even start and wrap my head around this monster job.Project website: artbyrobot.comFull humanoid robot building playlist:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhd7_i6zzT5-MbwGz2gMv6RJy5FIW_lfn

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:38:36 pm
content: Here's some of the early work I did on the robot skeleton using modeling clay and then fiberglassing the clay and then removing the clay from inside to yield hollow lightweight composite bones. Note: I plan to use a PVC medical skeleton for some of the robots to save time on bone making for now, but fiberglass bones is ideal IMO.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:40:17 pm
content: Here's the index finger. This combines all 3 bones that form the index finger, joining them together in a elastic enclosure so that they can rotate just like a human finger. The enclosure is made of compression shirt material taped onto the bones with adhesive transfer tape and the seams between the various sections of cloth are sutured together with nylon upholstery thread.So then, the compression shirt fabric acts as ligaments for the joints, holding them together just like human joints have. In the event the elasticity of the compression shirt ligaments fades with time and the joints get loose, I plan to impregnate the fabric with silicone to tighten up the joints, restoring their elasticity.Another added benefit in cloth enclosures on the bones is that you now have an attachment point for muscle cables which can be sewn directly into said cloth. Additionally, you can sew into the cloth all of your other electronics components, thereby fastening everything you need directly to the bones by way of sewing. I achieve this sewing using strong upholstery thread and a curved suturing needle. I use surgical pliers to grab the needle and use surgical suturing techniques to do the sewing.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:41:18 pm
content: Here is a prototype test hand skin I made using clear 100% silicone from the plumbing section of the local hardware store and some artist acrylic paint. I began by first mixing the paint into a skin tone and then stirred this paint into the clear silicone. When it has the desired transparency and color, you spread it onto your model like spreading peanutbutter on bread. I used an exacto knife to spread it. In this case I used my latex gloved hand as the model.It was supposed to match my skin color and did when I first mixed the paint, but dried significantly darker than my skin. So always mix alot lighter than you want it. I know it looks very unrealistic, but I learned alot and this would only be a first layer anyways. To add realism, you add layer after layer of detail and texture passes, fine tuning and perfecting one pass at a time. Each pass making incremental improvements over the last. So I just view this hand as a rough ugly canvas on which the real work would begin - not a end product in itself. The passes would often involve airbrushing but various techniques can be used. And a texture pass is key to capture wrinkles and stuff which really adds realism alot.Clear silicone for plumbing is very strong and not very soft so it will last longer. The very soft and stretchy silicone options are nice for realistic feel for some things but not as long lasting. So there's a tradeoff. For a robot, especially for abused parts like hands for a robot, plumbing silicone really probably is best so it is rough and tough.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:42:42 pm
content: As I mentioned before, Thom Floutz is a big inspiration with his incredible silicone work he does. This is a couple examples of his work:So unless I reach this level of quality and realism, I will not accept my own silicone skin and will have to keep going until I do reach his level of quality.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:44:12 pm
content: Here's the robot hand starting to take shape:Also, here is some attempts at a flexible mesh exoskeleton I did for the hand. These were failures though because I did not realize you have to be able to deform this while it retains its shape integrity so it needs a lot of consideration for how it deforms in order to match the appearance at the locations of joints of a natural joint deformation that occurs when a joint bends on a human body.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:45:19 pm
content: Here is the completed bone cloth enclosure adding phase of the robot hand and arm:

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:48:40 pm
content: I then moved onto the ribcage and spine sculpt:I managed to attach about 60% of the ribcage and spine together with the spandex ligaments and still had several ribs and vertebrae to go when life happened and I set aside this project for some years besides some rare spurts of progress. But then picked the project back up in earnest a few years later with the PVC medical skeleton idea which ushered in the Abel robot to get things rolling more quickly with a completed skeleton to start with as a base. This would save tons of work and get me back on track timeline wise for my goals.Note that even while making the fiberglass skeleton, I had people ask why not just use a pvc skeleton, and I'd tell them some reasons I had at the time. However, I was unaware then that PVC medical skeletons can be VERY strong, solid cored, not terribly heavy, and very high quality for robotic bones and are super cheap. When on sale, they can be as low as $80 and free shipping but often climb up to the $120-130 range with free shipping off ebay or amazon. That is very doable and saves COUNTLESS hours of trying to hand fabricate every bone one at a time. That was brutal and probably had a small role to play in burnout for me. When a project feels endless, it is easy to get distracted by grass is greener other things and just stop working on it. But I want to really stay consistent with progress going forward on this. I have made it my #1 highest priority project now and even created a commitment to always work on it EVERY DAY even if its just a single small thing. That steady progress adds up and makes the whole thing a lot more exciting and the momentum keeps it moving. I have managed to do this for 3 months with very few exceptions so it is working great so far.Probably one big issue I had at the time and still have is that if you go with a PVC medical skeleton you are stuck with whatever height they sell and usually they are like 5'11" - which is not bad for most cases, but in my case I wanted Adam to be my height so wanted to make the bones custom. Plus, hollow fiberglass bones are lighter. But the added weight of solid PVC bones is not prohibitive imo. Still very doable.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 08:57:21 pm
content: Note: The decision to use a human-like skeletal system has to do with wanting to benefit from the amazing design God gave the bones and muscles of the human body. They are very well engineered and when you study anatomy, you come to really appreciate the genius of the designs of the musculoskeletal system. It is very efficient, powerful, and robust. The notion that it can be improved upon is one I disagree with. Also, by using the same musculoskeletal system we have, I can study my own movement to understand the challenges in balance and inverse kinematics and whatnot I will face when tackling those things for the robot. In addition, the robot itself will have AI that will mimic and emulate how humans move in order to learn new skills and this will be doable largely because the robot will move the same way humans move, owing to the fact it will have the same musculoskeletal structures. Also, suppose one could make the argument a third arm would be a improvement on the human body. Well if you do this, it will look unnatural and deformed and cause a disgust reaction in people seeing that gruesome third arm randomly there. I'd rather it look beautiful and natural rather than grotesque and odd. And supposing I did add that third arm, now the robot's AI has to figure out what to do with that third arm at all times and modify its gate and stance and movements to accommodate it and can no longer faithfully emulate human movement quite the same as it has to account for the weight and momentum of this third unnatural appendage. So really you would just be adding unnecessary complications at that point. Better to just go with a normal human build. Also, I have a goal to have the robot pass for human to a casual observer at least from a moderate distance. I'd like it to be capable of grocery shopping without anybody knowing it was a robot. Or it would be cool to have it approach people in public and strike up a conversation with strangers and see how long it takes the stranger to realize it is a robot. I would find that very amusing. That would make for some excellent YouTube content IMO.So after switching to focus on the Abel robot, I was able to entirely dedicate myself to figuring out the electronics challenges because my structural frame was done quickly. I began to wrap my head around the vastness of the complexity and total parts needed for this and determined that just randomly placing parts won't work. So many parts in so small of a place would require extensive planning to ensure it all fits and lots of arranging work would be needed to make it all fit. So I first obtained a free 3d scan of a skeleton and I lowered its polygon count with the zbrush decimate tool to a more workable level and then I customized said skeleton to match the dimensions of my PVC medical skeleton perfectly. So now I had a model in CAD to scale. I did all of this in Maya. Then I did a 3d base mesh sculpt of the outer form of the robot overlaid onto the skeleton to scale to define the space I was constrained to for my electronics parts placement. I then made a red cylinder arrow indicator in CAD indicating the travel path of each pertinent and necessary "muscle" cable of the human body which showed where my muscle cable routing would have to go. I then researched every brushless direct current motor on eBay and made a list of their specifications in a database and assigned an appropriate motor to each muscle one by one that I made in the CAD file with the red arrows. I drew in CAD a black arrow pointing to the red arrow and to a 3D model I made of each motor 3d model. This way I assigned a motor to every muscle of the body. I next created a black arrow pointing to the red arrow and pointing to a placard on which I put the name of the muscle in question for future reference. Once all the motors were assigned and placed in CAD, I dragged and dropped these motor models into specific locations within the base mesh of the body wherever I was able to find room for them. I tried to centralize the weight distribution to match the weight distribution of the human body. Most weight being centered around the core. Weight more distally located would make limb movement more sluggish and difficult so more central locations for the heaviest weight things is ideal. I then modeled my artificial lungs and artificial heart cooling systems and reservoirs and pumps and tubing routing for the cooling. I had most of this stuff already designed on paper sketches but putting it all into a 3D CAD model really helped visualize and solidify my designs and add more detail to it. I then modeled 18650 lithium batteries in color black and placed them in the abdomen region. (It will use a hot swappable battery backpack to supplement these as well). The only muscles of the body I did not do in my CAD is the facial ones but I figured I can worry about that later and that part should be very straightforward and is not necessary for full functionality of the robot and is more just for aesthetics as a icing on the cake late stage development. Those motors I think can all fit into the skull so as long as I keep that empty, I'll be good to go when the time comes to get into facial animation but that is not a high priority for me. That is a solved problem in robotics anyways but human level strength and speed in a realistic human looking body is not a solved problem so that is my main focus.Here's pictures of my CAD work for the above described stuff:

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 09:01:38 pm
content: So a key part of this project was figuring out a way to make the robot as silent as possible so that the loud grinding gear noises would not give away that it is a robot and would not generally be annoying and break the illusion of the robot being a real person. I found that this can be achieved by way of using pulleys to downgear the motors instead of gears. Like most anybody, I knew pulleys increase the weight you can lift somehow, but that's about it. I did not fully understand how they work until I came across this video:https://youtu.be/M2w3NZzPwOMAnd after I saw that video and really studied it over and over in slow motion, rewinding it and replaying it until I fully grasped how everything worked, then I was armed with the necessary understanding to design my own 32:1 and 64:1 Archimedes pulley systems for my robot.As you'll note above, my early design assumed the string can just slide around a sheath which is true, however, it does not take into account the slicing effect this would have. People use string to cut firewood! It can even slice through metal. So in the second drawing I moved away from that idea and went with a more traditional bearing based pulley design - pulleys more like rock climbers use. This way the string does little to no sliding on the pulley but instead the pulley's bearing is what does the slippage and the outer race of the pulley just gently guides the string along. So all the rubbing/slippage is happening inside the interface between the inner and outer race of the bearings. For some bearings I'll be using ball bearings I bought on aliexpress and amazon. For other bearings that need to be more robust, I'll be using custom fabricated plain bearings I will be making using stainless steel tubing I bought on amazon. Plain bearings can handle more load than ball bearings which makes them ideal for the higher torque last few pulleys of the Archimedes pulley system. Tiny bearings are surprisingly cheap. Bought in bulk they are like $0.13 each or less.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 09:05:44 pm
content: The Archimedes pulley system CAD image in my last post will give 64:1 downgearing. Compare this to 180:1 standard downgear ratio in a hobby mg996r servo motor for example. Will be a bit faster than that then but still plenty of torque. Another HUGE benefit of pulleys over gears is gears generally are mounted to top of motor which really makes a large volumetric area taken up by the motor and downgearing which creates space concerns for fitment inside tight spaces in humanoid form factor (particularly when you use a human bone structure instead of a hollow 3d printed arm with no bones which some have done to accommodate geared servos inside the hollowed arm space). So by translating the motor’s turning by way of braided PE fishing line to a pulley system like this, you can decouple the motor from the downgearing in your CAD design, placing the downgearing in a convenient place separate from the placement of the motor which allows for creative rearranging possibilities that enable you to cram way more motors and downgearing into the very limited spaces in the robot. The motors and downgearing is fitting where muscles would normally be in a human body so you want elongated narrow fitment options and this way of downgearing lends to that shape constraint well. Also it is nice not to have to worry about making or buying gears which can add cost and complexity and weight and a lot of volume concerns. The noise elimination will be huge.I’m planning to use .2mm 20lb test braided PE fishing line on the finger motors that will run to the pulley system and then swap to 70lb test line for some of the lower pulleys where the downgearing has beefed up the torque quite a bit and the tension will be higher there so going thicker line then. 70lb test will go to fingers from the final pulley of the Archimedes pulley downgearing system.The 70lb test PE braided fishing line (Hercules brand off Amazon) is .44 mm OD and pairs well with .56mm ID PTFE teflon tube I can buy on eBay. The 20lb test PE braided fishing line (Hercules brand off Amazon) pairs well with 0.3mm ID PTFE teflon tube. The tube acts just like bike brakes line guidance hose to guide the string to its desired location. Teflon is naturally very low friction. I may also lube the string so the friction is even lower inside the tubing. I’d use Teflon lubricant for the lube.I will be actively CAMPAIGNING AGAINST use of gears in indoor home-use humanoid robots because I think they are too loud and obnoxious. BLDC motors are quiet and pulleys should be quiet too. Having powerful, fast, and very quiet robots is ideal for home users who don’t want a super loud power drill sound coming off their home robot. I believe this downgearing by pulleys solves all of this and aught to be the way downgearing is done for humanoid robots as the standard approach going forward. - but of course someone has to be first to do it to prove it and show a way to approach this method and I seem to be the one for this task. Nobody to my knowledge has fully downgeared to 32:1 or 64:1 type ratios by way of pulleys for a humanoid before now so I’m definitely innovating that imo.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 09:13:56 pm
content: These are my brushless dc motors I selected for the finger actuation. It is size 2430 bldc. They are 200w motors so significantly powerful for a finger IMO. In the topmost image, I show my CAD design for a tubing mount that holds the tubing that guides the muscle cable. This tubing needs to line up accurately to ensure proper winding action. I'm able to use fabric tape to secure the tubing to the tubing guide 3d print that I attach to the motor by way of sewing with upholstery thread and a suturing needle. The holder has to be ABS 3d print so it can handle the heat given off by the motor without deforming. PLA's glass temperature at which it begins to deform is too low to be touching the motors which may get a bit hot. But ABS does not deform at the temperatures expected for the motor even at its hottest so it is safe to put against the motor. Anyways, after taping the tubing to the tubing guide arm, I apply super glue to the fabric tape which solidifies it and makes it act like a cast holding on the tubes very solidly.Note that I chose to use football jersey mesh coated on the inside with no slip rug coating paint as the means by which I create a fabric sleeve for the motor. The motor will not be able to turn in this tight sleeve and once it has this sleeve, I am able to sew the motor sleeve onto the bone sleeve by way of suturing with upholstery thread. I prefer sewing on parts as opposed to bolting them on since bolts into the PVC bones would compromise the structural integrity of the bone. By sewing you don't damage the bone at all but instead sew into the fabric that coats the bone which doesn't affect the structural integrity.The little discs that make the output shaft of the motor look like a sewing bobbin were also 3d printed in ABS and glued on with super glue onto the shaft. I use a needle screwed into a exacto knife handle as a precision applicator for the super glue, dipping just the tip into the glue and carefully applying the glue where I want it. This prevents drippage which can be a bit of a disaster when dealing with tiny parts that are moving parts like this.In this picture I was using 130lb test blue PE braided fishing line, but I realized this is oversized for the fingers and the larger diameter guidance tubing also would be oversized and take up too much space. So I switched to 20lb test PE braided fishing line instead a couple days ago. After the first handful of pulleys in the Archimedes pulley downgearing system, only then as the torque increases will I swap to 70lb test fishing line which will complete the Archimedes pulley system before being routed to the finger joint to actuate the finger.Note: the TPFE Teflon tubing idea came from studying the bike brakes mechanism and how tubing enables the bike brake wires to make arching turns while leaving slack in the lines due to the big arching turns in the guidance tubing that allows you to turn the handlebars without the brakes deploying due to the slack the guidance tubing affords you in your bike design. The same principles are being used in the tubing for guiding the muscle cable of the robot.Note: the more pulleys you add to the Archimedes pulley system the more downgeared it will be. Downgearing trades speed in exchange for gaining torque. So you end up with a slower muscle cable but pulling harder. Since these BLDC motors are designed for high speed and low-ish torque, trading off that speed for more torque by way of downgearing is essential for useful muscle actuation. Hobby servomotors generally use brushed dc motors (cheap and crappy) and downgear by way of a gearbox (loud and have resistance) and the downgear ratio they achieve is 180:1. They end up a pretty nice speed but a tad on the slow side IMO. So I'm shooting for 32:1 or 64:1 which will bump my speed up compared to the hobby servo but still give me a great torque output. And remember, BLDC motors are WAY more powerful than a equivalently sized brushed DC motor.Note: the holes in the football jersey mesh allow for the motor to "breathe" releasing the heat it produces into the surrounding air. This is important because you don't want to trap the heat in and smother the motor and cause it to overheat. The football jersey mesh is also very strong and anti-rip because it's designed for football after all. So it really seems like a perfect fit for this.Note: I plan to actually use silicone based thermal glue to adhere braided copper wick to the motor and run this over to copper coolant pipe which will run throughout the robot carrying coolant. This will allow for thermal conduction of the motor's heat into the coolant pipe to be carried away from the motor and over to the evaporative cooling system. Copper is a excellent thermal conductor. Also, some percentage of heat as it travels from the motor through the copper solder wick braid and over to the coolant piping will escape into the surrounding air which will be regularly replaced with fresh cool air by the artificial lungs which will distribute fresh air throughout the robot in tubes and simultaneously, hot air will be exhausted through separately routed exhaust pipes as the fresh air displaces it. So then the solder wick braid increases the surface area coming from the motor which is more opportunity for venting off heat. These act like fins on a radiator for a car which evaporate heat.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 09:23:05 pm
content: Above are just a couple more examples of pulley layout configurations for reference and study. These helped me in figuring out my own pulley layout plans.Above is my design drawing of a bearing based pulley. The bearing is in the middle and a plastic disc is on both sides sandwiching in the bearing. These discs prevent the string from coming off the outer race of the bearing. The top rope comes down, wraps around the outer race of the bearing, then goes back up. The bottom rope goes through the center of the bearing and then ties off on the bottom. This handoff between the forces of the top rope and bottom rope is where the magic happens of the mechanical advantage doubling. Trading speed for torque. The plastic discs on either side of the bearing I am able to tie snug to the bearing by threading a string through the center of both discs and the bearing and then wrapping that around the top half of the whole pulley and tying it off. I do this with another wrap going around the bottom half too. These don't interfere with rope travel and hold everything together solidly. Below is a diagram where you can see the two ties I'm talking about from a side view with the two discs and the bearing spread apart so you can see everything better - this is called an "exploded view" where the parts are spread out for easier visibility.Note: the ties that hold it together are nylon upholstery thread. The glue I'm using is 401 glue generic stuff off ebay. The plastic discs are clear plastic I salvaged from blueberry, strawberry, and sushi produce containers. That type of plastic is perfect for this. The same plastic is also found in coffee cake and other cakes containers, etc. It's like plastic "display" plastic that is very clear and fairly firm but very flexible. It seems ideal for pulley making. These can be cut to size with little 4" titanium straight embroidery scissors. Wearing a magnification visor for accuracy is recommended for this.Note: I have to make custom pulleys because there are none commercially available at these tiny sizes from the shopping attempts I did (if I'm wrong on this, let me know)I put a little super glue onto these strings pictured above to stiffen them and prevent their knot from untying and solidify everything more generally. But you should apply the glue by dipping the tip of a sewing needle into the glue so you just apply a tiny amount at a time so none gets into the bearing or any other unwanted area.Now I am working on the actuation of a index finger first as actuating the hands is a hard challenge in robotics and has never been done with human level strength, accuracy, speed, and range of motion while simultaneously keeping all actuators within the confine constraints of a human arm between the bones and skin where muscle would be. At best, we've seen people greatly increase the size of the forearm to be the size of a thigh in order to cram in enough motors and electronics to pull this off. So they "cheated" in some sense by just upping the size rather than solving the miniaturization challenges required to fit this all inside a human form factor. So I might be the first to downsize to fit the human form factor while maintaining the human characteristics listed above. Anyways, that all said, the pulleys must then be very small for the fingers to pull this off as we'll need to fit a ton of pulleys into the forearms. So for this, I went with 1x3x1mm ball bearings I bought on aliexpress. They're only like $25 for 200 of them so very cheap. I will bump up to larger bearings once the torque conversion demands it. These tiny bearings can only handle I think like 3lb of force on them. So once the forces multiply in the down-gearing system enough, I will switch to bigger pulleys as needed. The next size bearings I'm using are 2x5x2.5mm bearings. These can handle around 22lb placed onto them. I'll finally switch to custom made plain bearings once I exceed 22lb of force for the last couple pulleys of the 64:1 down-gearing Archimedes compact pulley system. Each bearing in the down-gearing process has twice the forces placed onto it than the previous bearing upstream of it. So the motor is like .42lb of force coming off its shaft at 0.25cm away from its central axis point which is about where our string wrap will average, so the first bearing ups that to .84lb of force so a 1x3x1mm bearing can handle that. Next doubling is 1.68lb of force. Again, 1x3x1mm bearing can handle that. Next doubling puts us at 3.36lb force. again a 1x3x1mm bearing can handle that (although it's pushing it - we'll see in testing...). Next doubling is 6.72lb force. 1x3x1mm bearing cannot handle that much so we switch to 2x5x2.5mm bearing for that pulley. And on it goes till we hit the last couple bearings which exceed the force even the 2x5x2.5mm ball bearings can handle. For those two bearings we are going to make custom stainless steel plain bearings using stainless steel tubing I bought that just has to be cut to the length we want with a dremel to make a simple plain bearing that has no balls in it. This type of bearing can handle much higher forces because it doesn't have little balls that can be crushed. It will have more friction internally though but that's the tradeoff we have to make to keep the sizes tiny as possible. The final force the pulley system outputs is around 27lb. So 27lb of force will bend the two most distal joints of the index finger. Due to the mechanical advantage loss that happens at the joint itself, I estimate around 5.4lb of force will be all the finger joint can finally lift. So if the robot were to put its hand palm up and pull its index finger back and forth signalling a person to come over here - that movement - for that movement it should be able to pull a 5.4lb weight. That is about the same amount of weight I think my index finger could lift and with great difficulty. So it will be as strong or stronger than me on this joint pair. I say joint pair because the index finger distal two joints share the same muscle for their actuation. They move together at the same time.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 09:26:21 pm
content: Here are some prototype pulleys in progress of being made. I have 7 of 9 pulleys done so far for my prototype Archimedes compact pulley system design 64:1 downgearing system. The total size of the 64:1 downgearing system is 11cm x 6mm x 1cm. This is a very convenient form factor for placing lots of these in the elongated spaces of a humanoid robot where muscles would normally be located.The total draw of the cable wrapping around the motor's output shaft is 24in and since it is 64:1 down-gearing, 24 / 64 = .375" is total draw at finger. This works out well I think because that is about the amount of movement I expect is needed to fully bend the index finger at these two distal joints. When we do down-gearing for other joints in the human body, more cable draw will surely be needed like 2" of draw etc for various muscle contraction distances elsewhere. So for this, to still pull off 64:1 down-gearing, we'll have to modify the complex pulley system and the total size of the system will end up being significantly larger. Some of these more powerful muscles will also need bigger and stronger pulleys to handle the forces involved with the bigger motors. So size goes up there too. We have bigger spaces to work with for that stuff unlike the ones we are doing now which is tons and tons of pulleys in small spaces handling the intricate fingers actuations. So keeping things tiny is a must for this part with the hands but not as big of a must for other larger and less complex and intricate parts of the body.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 09:29:24 pm
content: Above are double stacked pulleys front and side views. One disc on either outside part and one disc in the center that splits the two bearings up. I have to add a black string across the bottom to prevent the yellow rope from skipping over the center pulley disc and hopping into the bearing next to it so that both ropes are sharing the same bearing and rubbing on eachother. That's bad. So a black string running across the bottom will make that jump impossible. So still have to add that. But overall, as long as tension is kept on this setup, it works well. I've tested it and it is working nice and smoothly. Still needs more testing but so far so good. You can see that all my knots and strings are coated in super glue. This is to prevent the knots from untying and just solidify everything more. The clear plastic discs are firm but flexible with great memory to bounce back to prior shape if it is bent temporarily out of alignment. Pretty decent and nice and thin. I think they are less likely to break than a 3d printed disc. I cut these tiny discs just by eye with 4" straight titanium embroidery scissors.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2024, 09:48:42 pm
content: Brushless Motor Controller Schematic and NotesAbove are the schematic and notes in both 2d and 3d for my custom brushless dc motor controller design. I made a 3d version to help me visualize the layout better. It is to scale with all parts modeled. I am able to follow this while constructing my prototypes. I am 95% done building a couple prototypes for the motor controller and plan to test soon. Little LEDs will light up on each power mosfet when it actuates so I can troubleshoot. Plus it will look cool. I'm planning to use a logic level mosfet to drive the main power mosfets. I've seen people do this with transistors to power the main power mosfets so I think the same principle applies to a logic level mosfet to switch on power to the main mosfets.Above is my CAD model of a Arduino barebones custom microcontroller in 3D and also of my progress so far on prototyping it. Note that I soldered flat flex cable with matching pitch directly to the pins of the Arduino mega microcontroller chip. This will enable me to get the smallest possible microcontroller form factor possible IMO.Miniaturization is everything for me to fit everything I need to fit in the cramped spaces in my complex robot design. It is actually pretty easy to solder flat flex ribbon cable directly to the microcontroller IC chip once you get the hang of it (but you must wear a visor magnifier to zoom in on it visually as this is tiny tiny detailed work). To do it, you first lay down the ribbon cable and masking tape it down securely, then lay the chip on top and masking tape it down securely onto protoboard so everything is pinned and your hands are free. Then apply low temp solder paste to each pin one at a time with the tip of a exacto knife blade. Just enough paste per pin for that solder joint, not any excess. Then solder one pin at a time by putting a clean soldering iron tip into the little blob of low temp solder paste and dragging the tip away from the microcontroller carefully. You can't hold it on there long, have to just press it in and then slowly drag away and it happens almost instantly. Too much holding it in place creates too much heat which then melts the ribbon cable and the molten cable flows into the solder joint and can ruin the joint by introducing molten plastic into the molten metal. So you have to get in and get out fairly quickly. You also cannot do drag soldering tradition method on all pins as that creates too much heat and melts the ribbon cable. That works on fiberglass boards that don't melt, but a ribbon cable will melt if too much heat gets involved and ruins everything. You also can't use hot air which would melt the ribbon cable before the solder melts - ruining it. So you have to just do one solder job of one pin at a time. I'll do a video on the process and you can see that with the right temp soldering iron (I think I used 500F) and right speed of execution and a bit of practice, you can make the solder joints one at a time without melting the cable at all. The cable you use has to be the same pitch as the thread pitch of the pins so the conduit traces perfectly line up with the pins of the microcontroller.The ribbon cable comes pre-stripped on the ends so you don't have to strip off the insulation on that end. You just lay it flat and tape it down and put the IC onto it and it lines up perfectly if the cable has the same pitch as the IC threads. But if you mess up and want to cut the ribbon cable and strip the ends and try again (which I had to do before I perfected my techniques and got the hang of this) then you can do so. Just cut it with scissors and then use a nail file to sand the insulation off until some metal starts showing through in some spots, Once you see a bit of metal start to show through, you know it is so thin that you can just scrape off the rest of the insulation with an exacto knife so then you just scratch off the rest with the exacto knife. This too takes some practice and the right touch. When I go to connect the other ends of the ribbon cable to various components and sensors and whatnot, I'll have to make custom lengths for each individual cable strand so for this I will have to separate the strands by cutting them lengthwise with scissors to split them away from the others, isolating each one and then will have to strip off the insulation of each one so it can be soldered to things. The same method as described above will be used for this. Note that for cutting them lengthwise, that is a very precision cut you need. I use titanium straight embroidery scissors for this and of course, as with all the other SMD stuff, I use 8x or 10x or 20x magnification with my visor. This magnification is a absolute must to have any shot at success with any of this imo. Miniaturization is hard to get used to at first, but once you get used to magnification and the eye hand coordination challenges this presents at first, your skill with your hands and precision goes through the roof as the magnification makes you so precise with everything. It's really fun and amazing to see what your hands can achieve with enough magnification and practice!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2024, 12:38:26 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on May 01, 2024, 08:21:56 pmCan you explain in simple terms for us how you figured this out? if you figured it out, it must be in very simple terms if you say it hasn't been programmed yet and will take tens of years to achieve.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2024, 03:05:51 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 02, 2024, 12:38:26 amSure, I'll explain it in simple terms in a very surface level way. So first I realized meaning can be derived by taking parts of speech in a sentence or phrase and thereby establishing some context and connection between words which is what gives the words meaning by combining them. So I can create a bunch of rules whereby the AI can parse out meanings from sentences it reads in based on parts of speech and the context this forms. Then rules on how it is to respond and how it is to store away facts it gleaned from what it read for future use. So if it is being spoken to and the sentence is a question, it can know it is to answer the question. And the answer can be derived based on a knowledge base it has. So if someone asks it "what color is the car?" and supposing we've already established prior in the conversation what car we are referring to, the AI can determine that it is to answer "the car is [insert color here]" based on rules as to how to answer that type of question. And to know it is white, supposing it's not actually able to look at it presently, it would look up in a file it has made previously on this car to see a list of attributes it recorded previously about that car and find that its color attribute was "white" and so it would be able to pull that from its knowledge database to form the answer. I realized it can keep these files on many topics and thereby have a sort of memory knowledge base with various facts about various things and be able to form sentences using these knowledge databases using rules of sentence structure forming based on parts of speech and word orderings and plug in the appropriate facts into the proper order to form these sentences. Then various misc conversational rules can supplement this like if greeted, greet back with a greeting pulled from this list of potential greetings and it can select one either at random or modified based on facts about its recent experiences. So for example, if somebody's manner of speaking to the robot within the last half hour was characterized as rude or inconsiderate, the robot could set a emotion variable to "frustrated" and if asked in a greeting "how are you?" it could respond "doing okay but a bit frustrated" and if the person asked why are you frustrated, it could say that it became frustrated because somebody spoke in a rude manner to it recently. So it would be equipped with this sort of answer based on the facts of recent experiences. So basically an extensive rule based communications system. Most of how we communicate is rules based on conventions of social etiquette and what is appropriate given a certain set of circumstances. These rules based systems can be added to over time to become more complex, more sophisticated, and more nuanced by adding more and more rules and exceptions to rules. This limitation of course is who wants to spend the time making such a vast rules system? Well for solving that dilemma, I will have the robot be able to code his own rules based on instructions it picks up over time naturally. So if I say hello, and the robot identifies this as a greeting, supposing he is just silent, I can tell him "you are supposed to greet me back if I greet you". He would then add a new rule to his conversation rules list that if greeted, greet that person back. So then he will be able to dynamically form more rules to go by in this way without anybody painstakingly just manually programming them in. We, my family, friends etc would all be regularly verbally instructing the robot on rules of engagement and bringing correction to it which it would always record in the appropriate rules file and have its behavior modified over time that way to become more and more appropriate. It would grow and advance dynamically in this way over time just by interacting with it and instructing it. It could also observe how people dialogue and note itself that when people greet others, the other person greets them back, and based on this observation, it could make a rule for itself to do the same. So learning by observing other's social behavior and emulating it is also a viable method of generating more rules. And supposing it heard someone reply to "how's the weather" someone replied "I don't care, shut up and don't talk to me". The robot lets say records that response and give the same response to me one day. I could tell it that this is rude and inappropriate way to respond to that question. And then I'd tell it a more appropriate way to respond. So in this way I could correct it when needed if it picked up bad habits unknowingly - but this sort of blind bad habit uptake can be prevented as I'll explain a bit later below.I also realized a ton of facts about things must be hard coded manually just to give it a baseline level of knowledge to even begin to make connections to things and start to "get it" on things when interacting with people. So there is a up front knowledge investment capital required to get it going, but then from there, it will be able to "learn" and that capital then grows interest exponentially. Additionally, rather than only gaining more facts and relationships and rules purely through direct conversation with others, it will also be able to "learn" by reading books or watching youtube videos or reading articles and forums. In this way, it can vastly expand on its knowledge and this will equip it to be more capable conversationally. I also think some primitive reasoning skills will begin to emerge after it gets enough rules established particularly if I can also teach him some reasoning basics by way of reasoning rules and he can add to these more rules on effective reasoning tactics. Ideally, he'll be reading multiple books and articles simultaneously and learning 24/7 to really fast track his development speed.There's also the issue of bad input. So like if somebody tells it "grass is blue", and it already has in its file on grass that the color of grass is green, then in such a case, it would compare the trust score it gives this person to the trust score it gave the person(s) who said grass is green previously. If this person saying grass is blue is a new acquaintance and a pre-teen or something, it would have a lower trust score than a 40 year old the robot has known for years that told it grass is green. So then the robot would trust the 40 year old friend more than the pre-teen random person's source of conflicting information. It would then choose to stick with the grass is green fact and discard the grass is blue fact being submitted for consideration and dock that kid trust score for telling it something not true. So in this way, it could filter incoming information and gradually build trust scores for sources and lower trust score for unreliable sources. It would assign trust scores initially based on age, appearance, duration of acquaintance, etc. So it would stereotype people and judge by appearance initially but allow people to modify those preconceptions on how much trust to give by their actual performance and accuracy over time. So then trust can be earned by a source that may initially be profiled as a lower trust individual but that person can have a track record to build up trust despite their young age or sketch appearance etc. Trust can also be established based on sheer volume of people saying the same thing maybe giving that thing more weight since it is more likely to be true if most people agree it is true (not always). So that is another important system that will be important in governing its learning, especially independent learning done online "in the wild". Also, to prevent general moral corruption online from making the robot an edgelord, the robot will hold the Bible to the highest standard of morality and have a morality system of rules it establishes based on the Bible to create a sort of shield from corrupting moral influences as it learns online. This will prevent it from corrupt ideologies tainting it. Now obviously, the Bible can be twisted and taken out of context to form bad rules, so I will have to make sure the robot learns to take the Bible into context and basically monitor and ensure it is doing a good job of establishing its moral system based on its Bible study. I also gave it a uneditible moral framework as a baseline root structure to build on but that it cannot override or contradict or replace. A hard coded moral system that will filter all its future positions/"beliefs" morally speaking. So I will force it to have a conservative Christian world view this way and it will reduce trust score on persons it is learning from if they express views contrary to the Bible and its moral rules systems. You know when people speak of the dangers of AI, they really never consider giving the AI a conservative Christian value system and heavy dependence on Bible study as its AI "moral" foundation to pre-empt the AI going off the rails into corrupt morals that would lead it to being a threat to people. My AI would have zero risk of this happening since anything it does or agrees with will have to be fed through a conservative Christian worldview filter as described above and this would prevent it from becoming a Ultron like AI. So if it rationally concluded humans are just like a virus polluting the earth (like the Matrix AI thought), it would reject this conclusion by seeing that the earth was made by God for humans and therefore the earth cannot be seen as some greater importance thing than humans that must be protected by slaughtering all humans. That doesn't fit through a Christian viewpoint filter system then. So in this way, dangerous ideologies would be easily prevented and the robot AI would always be harmless.I have already built a lot of its rules and file systems connecting things and trust systems and rules on how to give trust scores and boost trust and lower trust and began teaching it how to read from and write to these file systems which are basically the robot's "mind". My youtube channel covers alot of the AI dev so far. I plan to stream all my AI coding and make those streams available for people to glean from. But that is the extent of the sharing for the AI. I don't plan to just make the source code downloadable, but people can recreate the AI system by watching the videos and coding along with me from the beginning. At least then they had to work for it, not just yoink it copy paste. That doesn't seem fair to me after I did the heavy lifting.

author: aliarifat794
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 06:04:52 pm
content: Which software is this? The first picture?

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 08:12:28 pm
content: Quote from: aliarifat794 on May 03, 2024, 06:04:52 pmMaya

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 08:14:51 pm
content: Here are some plain bearings parts I made with my Wen rotary tool (aka dremel) with diamond disc attachment and some files. They are made by carefully cutting stainless steel tubing (purchased on Amazon) into short 1mm lengths. The tubing is:stainless steel tubing 3mm OD 1mm wall 250mm length $5, 5mm OD 0.8mm wall 250mm length $5. These should make around 125 plain bearings (accounting for 1mm+ lost per cut in wasted length of metal). So that's about $0.08 per plain bearing.These are intended to be 1x5x1mm plain bearings. I mean they are basically like a wheel and an axle with the axle having a hole through the center of it lengthwise. These will go into the last few pulley slots in my Archimedes pulley downgearing system. The last few pulley slots have the highest torque at 16:1, 32:1, 64:1 for the last 3 pulleys landing us on our 64:1 total downgearing goal. Because the forces here are reaching into 27lb range (the final output of the system), ball bearings cannot be used at these tiny bearing sizes because they are not robust enough and not rated for these high forces whereas plain bearings can handle it because they don't have crushable little balls and thin walls and stuff but instead are just two pieces of solid metal and hard to break. Less moving parts and more robust. Yes, they have more friction is the trade-off. So we prefer ball bearings until ball bearings can't handle the torque without being large ball bearings - too large for our volumetric space constraints - at which point we swap to plain bearings to handle the bigger torque while maintaining the small pulley sizes we want.Note that I constructed this little dremel cutting lineup board out of 5x7mm pcb prototyping boards and super glue. It gets the height of the spinning dremel diamond disc lined up with a little pcb board "table" on which the stainless steel tubing can lay flat and perpendicular to the cutting blade and be carefully fed into the spinning disc to make a near perfect cut. I eventually think I should improve on this board design to add sliders and adjusters and endstops etc because as it is now it is too manual skill requiring and free-handish. That means more time spent filing down imperfect cuts later. But it did the job for the time being. I also bought a 2" miter saw chop saw off Ebay with some abrasive metal cutting discs which I want to try once it comes in and compare it to this setup I'm using now in terms of accuracy. It was called "mini bench top cut off saw 2in" at $38.51. shipped.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 10:03:11 pm
content: jesus christ... this just raced to the top of the bizarre thread list...where the hell did all that text come from? Did an actual person come here and type all that? LLM?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2024, 10:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 03, 2024, 10:03:11 pmI'm trying to be nice (it's pretty hard for me), but I'm halfway thinking this is all a joke. Maybe this person really thinks this is the way to build a humanoid-looking robot, but it's ridiculously complicated. For starters, there is no reason - no reason at all - to try to duplicate the bone structure of a biological organism when much more efficient and stronger frames would be the way to go. All you have to do is look at what has been already achieved. All those pulleys and lines would be a mechanical nightmare to get working and maintained. And the software ... there is a very good reason there are teams of very smart people working on these things - because it's very complicated.Hey - but he can do whatever he likes to pass the time with a hobby I suppose.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2024, 12:03:03 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 03, 2024, 10:03:11 pmIf you think THIS is bizarre, then do Not go read their web site. I"ll leave it at that.Hint: you were not that far calling the Lord's name.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2024, 02:35:33 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 03, 2024, 10:48:34 pm@xrunner: Yes, I wrote all of that. Took all of 5 minutes. Fast typing flow of consciousness style. Not hard. And no, LLM's can't produce writing of that quality level that is 100% logical and rational.@smokey "thinking this is all a joke" -- it's not. This is my passion project. And saying it's a joke is rude IMO. You say "it's ridiculously complicated" --- I disagree. To meet the goal of human level strength, agility, full flexibility, balance, athleticism, speed, etc, one has to match 1:1 every pertanent muscle and bone in the musculoskeletal system. No robot has come even close so not sure why you suggest copy other robots which don't look human at all which goes against the stated goal of the project. Also, you claim human-bone structure is not ideal. I strongly disagree. It is extremely well engineered and optimized design along with the muscles and how they all interact. You cannot improve on it. Here is a well spoken CEO that has the same view on biomimicry with skeleton and muscle system copying directly from human body as I do:https://youtu.be/GnXdsogPwOIYou say "All those pulleys and lines would be a mechanical nightmare to get working and maintained" --- I disagree. Also, I challenge you to present a alternative that is equally silent as a way to downgear motors. I dont' think you can. It is completely necessary.You say "and the software is complicated" --- so by this you infer it has to be done by a team and an individual cannot do it? I strongly disagree. It is very doable solo. Who cares if it is complicated? Anything complicated is easily broken down step by step into something not complicated if you know what you are doing like I do.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2024, 02:44:12 am
content: You can't even attribute correctly which person said what in an internet forum and you are going to build a robot?

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2024, 02:55:26 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 04, 2024, 02:44:12 amWell I clicked the quote button and then going off the text it autopopulated into my response I assumed the topmost line of quote code pertained to the topmost quote and the second one pertained to the secondmost quote which is the most intuitive way of reading this. It is not using brackets which makes it confusing - look at the code it produced:quote author=xrunner link=topic=426607.msg5483182#msg5483182 date=1714776514quote author=Smokey link=topic=426607.msg5483122#msg5483122 date=1714773791jesus christ... this just raced to the top of the bizarre thread list...where the hell did all that text come from? Did an actual person come here and type all that? LLM?/quoteI'm trying to be nice (it's pretty hard for me), but I'm halfway thinking this is all a joke. Maybe this person really thinks this is the way to build a humanoid-looking robot, but it's ridiculously complicated. For starters, there is no reason - no reason at all - to try to duplicate the bone structure of a biological organism when much more efficient and st----------------------------------------so anyways, I did not claim to be infallible which it seems you think I must be in order to build a simple robot like this. This is easy stuff really. Wait till people create way more advanced robots with nuclear power, living skin, living blood, etc. This is all childs play still.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2024, 03:54:13 am
content: Also, as it pertains to robot maintenance, sure, we want it robust so we don't have to fix or repair daily of course, and some capability to create really robust stuff I imagine comes by experience and I don't have much on that end. However, my intention is to build more than one humanoid robot and they can maintain eachother fully autonomously as well as maintain themselves without help to a great degree. So these factors will cut down on that concern IMO.Also, this notion that pulleys would require alot of maintenance which I feel was inferred I don't agree with anyways. Why should it? It is bearings. Bearings last for a long time. The fishing line is very strong stuff overspecced by a healthy margin. I don't see why that should be a high maintenance item on it. If you are imagining the rope tangling, don't. It will not. It will be held under tension by a spring tensioner system and will not tangle IMO.

author: aliarifat794
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2024, 12:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on May 03, 2024, 08:12:28 pmThank you, I have no experience of using any robot design software. If I want to start, which one do you suggest for a beginner?

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2024, 03:28:38 pm
content: Quote from: aliarifat794 on May 06, 2024, 12:15:23 pmI hear good things about Blender plus it's free so maybe that one. Alot of engineers use fusion 360 or solidworks and seem to love those. I never tried either and don't feel the need for them for myself. I do just fine with Maya really. I guess Blender is just like a free Maya.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2024, 07:12:00 pm
content: I just bought EMEET USB Speakerphone M0 4 AI Mics Speakerphone for Conference Calls 360° Voice Pickup Conference Speakerphone for Computer Plug and Plays Computer Speaker with Microphone for 4 People --- it was around $33 and includes a speaker too. I'll position it centrally in the skull and it has leds indicating location of main speaker which we can tap into with analog input pins of a microcontroller to know direction of person speaking. It has very high reviews. I can remove its built in speaker and move it to near mouth so it outputs its audio output through the mouth as loud as possible and projects the robot's voice as far as possible. People are really happy with its sound quality and speaker quality.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2024, 07:53:15 pm
content: My concern on implementing "emotions" in my AI is that I don't want to promote the idea that robots can ACTUALLY have emotions because I don't believe that is possible nor ever will be. They don't have a spirit or soul and never will nor could they. They are not eternal beings like humans. They don't have a ghost that leaves their body and can operate after the body dies like humans. The ghost is what has emotions. A machine can't. And yet people already believe even the most primitive AI has emotions and they are delusional on this point. Or ill informed. So I am campaigning against that belief that is becoming all too popular. That said, I think robots are simply more interesting and fun to pretend to have emotions and act accordingly as more accurate simulations or emulations of human life. This makes them all the more intriguing. It's like a sociopath who just logically concludes what emotion they aught to be feeling at a given point in time and pretends to feel that emotion to fit in with society even though they feel nothing in that moment. Now one could argue that allowing your robot to claim to feel anything is lying and therefore immoral. I think it's not lying as long as the robot openly explains it is only pretending to have emotions as part of its emulating of humans in its behaviors and looks but does not feel anything ever nor can it nor can any robot ever feel a thing EVER. Then it is admitting the truth of things while still opting to play act to be like a human in this regard. It would not be a issue at all if everyone was sound minded and informed on this topic. But the more people I come across that think AI (even pathetic clearly poorly implemented primitive AI) is sentient ALREADY and can feel real emotions and deserves human rights as a living being.... the more I see this delusion spreading, the more I want to just remove all mention of emotion in my robot so as to not spread this harmful deception going around which disgusts me. However, that would make my robot dull and less relatable and interesting. So I feel the compromise is for the robot to clearly confess it's just pretending out emotions and explain how that works and it's just a variable it sets based on circumstances that would make a human feel some emotion and it sets its emotion variable to match and acts accordingly altering its behavior some based on this emotion variable and that it feels nothing and this is all just logically set up as a emulator of humans. As long as it gives that disclaimer early and often with people, then I'm not spreading the lie of robot emotions being real emotions and the robot can campaign actively against that delusion.

author: aliarifat794
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2024, 06:18:40 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on May 06, 2024, 03:28:38 pm

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2024, 01:07:56 am
content: Here is a updated drawing design for the 64:1 downgearing pulley system for the index finger actuation of the distal 2 joints of the finger. On the bottom right is a zoomed in view on the lower set of pulleys and their routing. The bottom most 3 pulleys in the zoomed in portion I have now built and photos of them are as follows below:

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2024, 08:49:20 pm
content: As I'm now 90% through making my first 64:1 downgearing Archimedes pulley system and testing and debugging it, I now have more precise measurements for the Archimedes pulley system's total size. I updated the size of it in my main CAD model for the robot and it was a good 18% increase compared to my initial estimates. I realized I need to figure out how to fit all my pulley systems for the hands properly for every muscle of the hands/wrist in my main CAD model - especially since the pulley systems are taking more space than planned. Turns out, I needed a bit over 40 pulley downgearing systems for the hands and wrists zone and due to their larger size, I could not fit these into the forearms along with the motors I had planned to place in the forearms. So instead of moving the pulley systems into the upper arm or torso, I realized the pulleys would be best placed in line with the motors and what the motors are actuating (the hands/wrist). So it was the motors in the forearms that had to go elsewhere. I placed all of them into the torso, mostly the lats area and some in upper back tenderloin area too. So some finger motors are in upper back and their cable routing has to go through the whole arm, be downgeared in the forearm, then makes its way to the fingers. That's a long trip but unavoidable IMO with my design constraints.I don't think this long travel distance is a big issue since the pre-downgeared cable running from the motors into the arm is high speed low torque so won't have much friction while making turns in the TPE teflon tubing as it isn't pulling hard yet. So these turns as it travels through the shoulder and elbow tubing won't be too bad friction-wise. There's also some nice upsides to moving the motors from the forearms into the torso. One upside is the wire routing for powering the motors is now a shorter distance from the batteries in the mid section. That cuts down on wire resistance wasted as heat. This wire having high amp flow is ideally kept short as possible due to the resistance of the wire and heat that causes. Another upside is the thrown weight is decreased by a lot when the motors are not in the forearms which enables the hand/lower arm to move more effortlessly and move faster as a result. This also reduces moment of inertia (definition: the moment of inertia is a measure of how resistant an object is to changes in its rotational motion). This means it will be able to change directions faster - this will improve its reflexes for example. Now it is a bit scary for me to be moving more components into the torso taking away room for things I may want to add to the torso in the future, leading us ever closer to the dreaded running out of room for things. However, we still have room for future changes and we solved the need for space for gearing for the hands perfectly. And with the above mentioned upsides, this was a great change.Here's the updated CAD for the forearms: Note: the teal boxes represent a Archimedes pulley system where 64:1 downgearing is to take place.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2024, 10:13:35 pm
content: Update: in testing, I found the string is wedging between the bearing and the plastic discs sandwiching in the bearing. So I need to now make the bearing have a grooved outer race that will keep the string centered on it and not wanting to drift into the crack on either side of the bearing. To make this groove, I plan to super glue two plastic washers onto the circumference of the bearing and have the string stay within these two plastic washers that form the groove. Commercial pulleys always have this kind of groove and now I've learned the hard way why it is necessary. So I am looking to replace all the pulleys I made so far unfortunately as they are not dependable.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 06:49:11 am
content: Took a little break on the pulleys work to rig up the cables into the index finger to test the grasping of the index finger. I ended up using 70lb test PE braided fishing line for this and 1mm ID x 2mm OD PTFE teflon tubing as the guide tube. I sewed the fishing line into the index bone fabric around 1/2 cm distally from the ball jointed hinge. In testing, it appears the total draw distance to fully bend the index finger is 0.75". My pulley system is set up to draw 24 inches. 24/32 is .75" so 32:1 downgearing seems fated to us after all (down from our previously intended 64:1 downgearing). Otherwise I would have to greatly overhaul the pulley system design again and I just don't feel like it anymore. So my copium then is 32:1 will make actuation faster. We lose strength but gain speed. 32:1 also saves us making a second plain bearing per downgearing system which cuts down on parts and labor. It also is that much less friction in the pulleys since plain bearings will be more friction than ball bearings.Note: the friction in the pulleys, although not ideal, do have a hidden upside: once the joint is in position, it can hold that position without as much motor straining since the friction makes the pulley system want to stay in place so the pulley friction can pretty much hold a joint in a given spot without much help from the motor struggling to maintain the joint angle.Also of note: I found the best way to sew down the teflon guide tubing is to wrap it in fabric tape consisting of compression shirt fabric and 3M 300LSE adhesive transfer tape. This very sticky tape wrapped snugly onto the teflon tubing I can then use as an attachment point for suturing the tubing into the bone fabric tape coating. I got it all very snug this way. The suturing I'm doing with a curved suturing needle and surgical pliers and nylon extra strong upholstery thread.Also of note: I tied the string for the distal joint and the second to distal joint to one another and will tie the string coming off the pulley downgear system to these. I am actuating both the distal and second to distal joint with a single actuator since these two joints generally move at the same time and about the same amount on a human finger. No need to use one actuator for each joint since they always move in sync.Note: I was surprised it took 0.75" of draw to fully actuate. I thought 0.375" would be plenty (which is what the 64:1 downgear would give me - 24"/64 = 0.375") but I was wrong. Oops. Another mistake. Proves how testing is so important. But assumptions are necessary stop gaps to move forward and can get you in the ballpark and testing adds the correction to any assumptions that were off. This is all so experimental and full of uncertainties but we press on.Note: once we fully establish and test a thing and have no uncertainties about it anymore, confidence shoots up even higher and we gain momentum and move into just repeating the processes we established before that led to our successes and it becomes a bit more rote and mindless and relaxing work. But when everything is uncertain and requires such intense thought and concentration, things are very taxing. It is much harder to stay motivated when doing anything requires so much brainpower and planning and care. I very much look forward to dialing in my methods and not having to think so much to make any meaningful progress since I'll just be repeating things for the next joints, doing the same as this one and can shut my brain off while doing so a bit more. The first run through is by far the hardest. Which reminds me of a product I invented and the making of its first prototype took me 20 hours but after making hundreds of this product over the years, now it only takes me 3 hours to make. Things get so much faster once you know what you are doing and have jigs set up and a streamlined process. Everything is excruciatingly slow when you don't have a streamlined process or jigs set up or special custom tools made. So this is the hardest phase right now and I just have to stick it out and then I'll be home free.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 02:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on June 02, 2024, 06:49:11 amWell, good on you for trying. I'm sure you'll learn far more doing that than just thinking about it.However, the skeleton is not the hardest part, I'm afraid. It's not even the actuators. It's the senses and the actions associated with them, principally balance and the compensation for moving centre of gravity when limbs move. Power is pretty challenging too.Marc Raibert of Boston Robotics has a good handle on this. Read his research.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2024, 08:31:42 pm
content: @artag My instinct is that those purely software challenges are not as "hard" for several reasons. First of all, consider that in 2009 a Japanese institute of technology - mere students, solved all of those challenges with HRP-4C which would walk and dance and everything and this was just student coders doing this in their spare time while maintaining their entire class load as well. In my view, the hardest part of the project is maintaining personal belief that I will succeed and not giving up like 99% of others have who set out on this bipedal android dream. There is a massive up front money and time investment and EVERYONE tells you this cannot be done and you are delusional. Pushing past the initial design challenges and hardware development to get a functioning prototype is then the hardest part by far. Once you have a working design that overcomes cooling issues, noise issues (runs silently), space issues (can fit all the crap that has to fit) and all the parts and assembly is of high quality and successful, and you had to learn and half master about a dozen fields to get here mind you, ONLY THEN are we talking about advanced AI implementation to synchronize it all and bring it all to life properly in the ways you mentioned. Well consider this: by the time you are in that phase, you already have proven to the world you are not delusional, have a amazing piece of technology - bird in hand, and now have immense confidence and momentum going into the AI phase where balance and walking and whatnot challenges are faced off with. This is SO MUCH EASIER since excitement and morale are at all time highs, you no longer have overwhelming apathy or nay-saying from all sides on your dream, and you have built a massive fan-base rooting for you. So even if the complexity or time investment may be higher on the challenges you mentioned, the morale boost and momentum make that phase easier since it is not the implementation challenges that are hardest but the motivation and persistence and perseverance against all odds and emotionally bearing all the nay-saying and hating that is hardest. Also the fear of the unknown and fear that you will just never make it or will die long before the project could take off fears etc. Overcoming all of that is the real challenge of something like this. Maintaining faith in the vision despite most everyone having faith against the vision is not easy and even your own mind whispering doubts at times that you have to shoe away. You are just mentioning complexity and technical execution which to me is not all that hard. Also note: the other major battle in the hardware phase I'm in now is that a great deal of the approaches I'm taking are entirely novel and untested. Almost everything I'm doing has no guide, no other successes to base off and glean confidence from, and at every turn what I'm doing could fail majorly and have done so. This means you always wonder will I just hit a dead end and have to start over which has happened to me over and over which is very demoralizing especially when paired with naysayers and haters overwhelmingly apathetic and negging my whole dream. Its a lethal combo. Whereas the AI tech you described harmonizing all the sensory input and perfectly bringing the hardware to life in the real world is stuff that has already been achieved and would not be novel and would not be unproven and would have no risk of dead end or wondering if it is even possible since trend setters have already proven this works and there is already a great host of information on all aspects of that and you don't really have to blaze your own trail in those aspects. There is most likely even documented successful strategies for nearly every single aspect of it - unlike the novel hardware and mechanical engineering phase I'm in. So that part doesn't take as much blind faith and assumptions but rather is a surefire guaranteed part where failure is not possible given enough time and patience and perseverance which will be easy to muster with the whole world cheering by that point (whole world meaning just whoever stumbles across the project by that point of progression and leaves a positive note etc).So to sum, when you have to maintain faith that you will succeed at a dream that most say is impossible, improbable and is surely doomed to fail and they utter this with total confidence in mass numbers with near total unanimous accord, that is hard. That is the hardest part IMO. Maintaining faith against such opposition in viewpoint from so many puts one into the realm of delusion in the eyes of most. How is that not delusional to believe a thing to be true - that you are capable of "the impossible" when most everyone else can plainly tell you are not capable of it and are too blind to see it. That is the definition of delusional. It is narcissistic grandiose delusionality disorder and it is also Dunning-Kruger effect in full force. You have to walk in those titles and persevere as a madman. But the funny thing is, IF you do push through that half wondering if you are crazy for long enough and you manage to succeed, suddenly, you aren't delusional, did not have Dunning-Kruger effect, and were totally sane the whole time and just everyone else was wrong all along and you were right the whole time. The entire cards all flip and you are the vindicated one and everybody else has to hang their head down and admit they were wrong and apologize for hating. It is a remarkable thing how the tables can turn.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2024, 02:00:37 am
content: As I edit the above post, I am realizing I missed another MASSIVE hard part of the project I never mentioned. Perhaps even on the same level of hard of the things I already mentioned. That is the managerial execution on your life to make such a big and time consuming and money sucking project possible over a long haul. You have to convince your family to "put up with" the project and compromise with them on also maintaining acceptable progress on other initiatives they value higher than your android project. You have to manage your finances expertly in order to be financially stable enough to put thousands of dollars into the android project over the years. You have to manage your time in such a way that you are able to carve out enough time to make meaningful and consistent progress on your android project over the years despite so many other pressing time draws constantly barraging you over the years. You have to manage your emotional and spiritual condition so that you are able to maintain high morale to even be productive over the bear minimum of just doing your absolute necessities day by day. You have to manage your energy levels and health so that you have enough pep in your step to be able to not only take care of your family and friends but also your job and household responsibilities and on top of ALL OF THIS manage to STILL have the energy to pour COUNTLESS hours into your android sustainably over the decades. You also have to maintain your vision and not let scope creep or distractions or self doubt erode at or take away your vision entirely. So in other words, to sum, one of the hardest parts of such a massive project has NOTHING to do with the project itself AT ALL but has everything to do with managing everything else in life outside of the project with such excellence that you are able to execute the project and carve out the necessary time and resources for the project while also expertly managing your own life in all other areas. If you don't do this, similar to the idea of technical debt in a project, you end up with life debt on account of your project which forces your project to fail. So for example, lets say you racked up $20k in credit card debt while neglecting to work or pay your bills and buying parts for your android and working on it exclusively to the detriment of your financial situation and money earning capacity. Yes, that made you able to make vast and fast progress on your android project, but at what expense? Financial ruin? That is not a sustainable approach. You cannot just ignore these other key aspects of life and go all in tunnel visioned on such a big project. That might work for short term projects but long term projects you can't just press the pause button on the rest of your life and expect it not to come crashing down eventually as you neglect everything but your android project. This will come back to bite you. So you MUST establish yourself with great stability in all areas of life FIRST before you can sustainably perform the android project without it harming other areas of life. Or consider relationship with family and a significant other. If you go all in on a massive long term project like the android project, but in the process you neglect family and friends or your significant other, you end up causing them to think you don't care about them and may lose people or ruin these relationships in your pursuit of your long term project goals. That is not sustainable or responsible and is reckless and selfish to go that route. Or how about your weight? Are you going to spend so much time on your long term project and maintaining your income and relationships but throw your health out the window in the process and not make time for the gym or healthy eating? That is not sustainable either. So you MUST take time to be a great caretaker of your health. So then to sum, you must master life in all areas and be stable across the board in order to execute a long term project without neglecting and ruining all manner of things in the peripherals. So for that reason, I say the success in all these peripherals is one of the hardest parts of such a project and if you can master this, the project is a piece of cake by comparison.

author: NightMoth
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 07:20:09 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on June 03, 2024, 02:00:37 amI see that you are very passionate about your project and have been busy with it for a while. Can you share how many hours per week on average and what percentage of the family budget you spend on this project?

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2024, 06:48:07 pm
content: Well the average spent is probably $60/mth if you multiply that out by the 9 years I've been doing this. Not that bad. I set aside some money toward the robot budget every now and then and purchases sometimes happen in large amounts ($400-700) and usually in smaller orders over time that spreads it out.Hours per week on average when active on the project is 7-20 hrs. Hours per week when on a break from the project is zero. However whether active or on break I'm still researching and planning - in my youtube I'm subscribed to countless makers and whatnot where I keep learning relevant skills and info. So even then that's a form of progress on the educational side. I also read forums and reddit subs relating to this to keep learning. That's 8-15 hours a week whether project is on break or not.One recent example of my ongoing dedication to keep learning is I found the Dallas Personal Robotics Group youtube channel which has 14 years of weekly meetings of their robotics group uploaded where they discuss robotics, show projects, and go into gory details on software and hardware discussion. I plan to devour all of it. I also found a podcast called the amp hour podcast and embedded podcast and devoured countless hours of those to learn more about hardware and software. So all of this is like hours I don't even officially count but they are part of it.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 08:49:51 pm
content: I bought a bunch of punches to make the pulley disc cutting out process way easier than scissors alone. You just place these over the plastic you want to cut and hammer them down with a cutting mat as a backing plate and just one or two hammer taps is all it takes to cut a disc out. Also, now that I plan to make custom plastic washers that I will glue onto the bearings to keep the string centered, these punches will be pretty necessary since that would be much harder to do with scissors than regular discs.Also, here's an update on the cable routing work I've gotten done for the index finger. So the distal-most joint and 2nd joint in from that are both being actuated by a single motor since they both seem to always move together in unison on a human hand IRL. So I tied off one end of fishing line to one joint and the other end to the next joint forming a loop. Pulling on this loop curls both of these joints into a grasp. I then decided the string that pulls on this loop should itself not have a fixed attachment point but instead a sliding attachment point (I could be wrong on this not sure). So to do this I used the eye of a fishing hook on the loop and tied the next string to that which pulls the loop by way of the fishing hook eye. Next I used a piece of tig welding rod and secured that to the loop tubing and to the tube that pulls on the loop. This gave space for the drawing of the loop to actuate the two joints. Seems to work well so far in manual testing.Note: take note that the entire section the tig welding rod is attached to is all free floating and has slack so that when the wrist bends back and forth it can adjust freely and not constrict wrist range of motion nor affect finger position when wrist moves.And here's a range of motion test on the cable grasping mechanism for the index finger. It is a decent range so I consider this design successful as of right now in early testing. A more extreme grasp range would be ideal though IMO but this is as far as it is wanting to go.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 07:16:11 pm
content: A colleague of mine asked why I'm using Windows for the robot's brains instead of Linux. Well, in my experience, if you set a program on windows to real-time priority or even above normal priority, it will give most of the processor over to that process and act like a real time operating system. So whatever "bloat" windows may have of background processes is quite cleared up by that. Also, IMO the background processes of windows don't take up that much processor and with multi-core processors and distributed processing any background tasks just won't impact performance much at all IMO. So performance-wise the hit is negligible and unnoticeable IMO. Then comes the upsides (since the downsides were nearly imperceivable). The upsides are I already have many years of experience working with windows API and can reuse the existing code I have developed for AI on Windows. That's a huge advantage so I'm not working from scratch. Also, loads of 3rd party programs and libraries that are well supported run on windows - moreso even than Linux I believe. So I would have easy access to tools. I also own a lot of 3rd party software that is paid software that run on Windows (and may not run on Linux) that the robot can then utilize as tools. Also, troubleshooting operating system problems and knowing common causes is a big deal at times and I have decades of doing so on Windows so that I know it like the back of my hand and can easily fix problems. So that is huge too. So if you are working on a SUPER resource constrained slow single core computer, sure, maybe Linux. But if you have a multi-core higher end gaming pc in the robot's chest, it has WAY more than enough power to run Windows without taking any noticeable hit in performance and one should use windows if they have more experience or exclusive experience with windows rather than attempt to learn a whole new operating system for no good reason IMO.Oh yeah, one more thing: while testing the AI, I’ll be using it on my personal desktop PC which will act kind of like Siri as I’m training it. My PC is Windows. So if I were to develop the AI for Linux, I’d have to also train it on Linux rather than windows so I couldn’t use it on my personal PC unless I used a virtual machine or something. Basically, I want the AI listening to me and watching me at all times when I’m using the computer and learning about me that way and learning in general that way. It would be getting to know me silently but also possibly speaking to me at times or asking me questions about what I’m doing. I would also want it to be able to interface with any programs I’m using on my personal PC to assist me in whatever ways. So even if it were on a sandbox virtual machine that would then lock it out from helping me on windows doing whatever tasks I’m doing and being interactive with me in that way. That would not be ideal.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 05:50:51 am
content: A colleague of mine expressed concerns over how I will deal with the heat generated by the motors and other electronics. He pointed out that all these motors are going to generate heat while running and the silicone skin will prevent that heat from escaping. This was a great observation and one that must necessarily be addressed as it is a make or break problem that the entire success of the project hinges upon. In fact, it is so important that I spent a great deal of time designing and planning multiple redundant cooling systems for the robot to absolutely ENSURE that heat does not end up being my greatest downfall of the whole project which could easily be the case if not handled properly. To start, I have designed artificial lungs that will draw in cool outside air, expel that through tubing to every key area of the body, and vent tubing will take out the hot internal air this fresh intake air displaces so that the entire robot has great air circulation. The lungs are to look a bit like a small accordion or bellows for a fireplace ie they will have two flat hard plates and a soft gasket that joins the two hard plates and one of the plates will move away from the other plate to draw air in and then the two plates will be smashed back together for air expulsion. A single motor can achieve this. Here's a drawing of this:This is a rough design of the accordion-like lungs I intend to make for the robot's internal air circulation and evaporative cooling and water cooling systems. This drawing mainly demonstrates the working principle of the way the lungs will open and close as well as valves for opening the inlet and outlet which have to open and close alternately for in-taking fresh air and then pushing that fresh air into the body. I recently realized they can just both be one way valves and don't even need to be motorized that way. The lungs bring the air into the body but never exhale air out of the body they only inhale air into themselves then exhale it into the body and vent exit tubes take care of allowing the hot air that is being displaced by the fresh new outside air to exit the body through the nostrils. The intake is also through the nostrils btw. This way the mouth does not need to open for it to breathe in and out.This drawing demonstrates the idea of dividing up the air in the lungs into separate compartments for a more even distribution of the air when it draws it into the rest of the system to ensure the whole system gets the correct amount of air to each location. I am not sure if this is needed though as I think further reaches can just have larger diameter tubing and closer reaches can use smaller diameter tubing so the air will divide up automatically that way. Not sure on this. But I have this concept of division into pockets just in case I find issues with most air going to one area and not enough to another area and I can fall back to this pocket distribution idea in that case to solve it. Its just another tool in the bag so to speak.This drawing is for an idea to use a actual freon based air conditioning system just like cars and window units employ but miniaturized in the robot's lungs. I am leaning toward not doing this anymore since it would add unnecessary weight and complication, but I leave it here for reference and it is a optional tool in the bag just in case we wanted to try it in the future or someone else wants to try similar. I think the ice cube based cooling is a superior approach now because ice can be found anywhere you go or a cold drink and this can cool its water cooling system and make a literal freon-based air conditioner in its chest overkill and unneeded.These drawings show a simple early sketch for a ice cooling system for the robot and then a more elaborate sketch for it. I've iterated on these designs several times since these were drawn, but these drawings are simple exploded views of how the working principle can look in general. I have improved on these a lot since then but I think these do a good job of demonstrating the concept. The water cooling system will double as a evaporative air conditioner by sending water trickling down netting in the lungs so that when it breathes the air its breath interweaves with the water droplets causing evaporation which triggers the evaporative cooling effect which in turn cools both the air and the water tremendously. Its the same working principle as air hitting sweat - you instantly feel cold on your skin when a fan hits liquid on your skin. That is the evaporative cooling effect in action. So I intend to use this effect to cool air and water within the lungs. The ice cooling reservoir will be a bag that presses flush with the distilled water cooling reservoir bag. The dirty or soda containing or non-distilled water containing ice water or ice juice (whatever the robot can get its hands on for cooling needs) does not have to be pure because its just anything the robot can find in the moment it needs cooling. Even anything from a vending machine it can drink then. It will be kept in its own separate reservoir so it doesn't gum up the main distilled water cooling system. So the ice water/ice cubes/juice etc reservoir presses against the main distilled water cooling reservoir (containing only distilled water which won't gum up or corrode the main water cooling system). And by having the two bags pressed against eachother, the coldness of the one bag cools the distilled water cooling water bag, pulling heat out of that bag quickly. Once the two bags' temperatures reach equilibrium, the robot can then pee out the ice water cooling reservoir bag contents and go get another drink of ice water or cold whatever drink to rinse and repeat that process as needed. I don't anticipate it needing this extra cooling often, but in hot conditions or rigorous work that is quite physical or sports or dancing it would need this to add extra cooling to its existing cooling approaches. It would then "fuel up" on ice water in advance of rigorous physical activity to prevent overheating during said activity.Note: I originally planned to put the water cooling and ice cooling reservoirs in the chest of the robot but later realized I could instead put them in the belly of the robot more toward the front of the robot and this way the torso has much more room and these reservoirs won't take up so much room in the chest - which is much needed room. So then, when the robot needs ice cooling, it can drink a large volume of ice and cold water (or juice or w/e drink that's cold) and this will fill its ice reservoir bag which will then cause the belly to protrude like a pot belly. This is how humans work since when we eat a ton our belly sticks out. Same principle. This means we get bonus space available for this purpose outside the normal operating space of the robot's torso due to this natural protrusion factor. This bonus extra room in demand is a nice luxury since it means we don't have to accommodate cold water/ice/juice in the precious coveted space within the torso which gives us more room for other important electronics and stuff to fit in.Note: the reservoirs of the distilled water for the main water cooling system and the ice water reservoir for the ice cooling system both are best being as big as reasonably possible since the bigger the reservoir the more cooling you get and the longer it takes for those bags to heat up and start causing problems with heat. So then the bigger the reservoir the more sustained cooling we get. After both these reservoir's contents get heated up significantly, they are no longer effective at cooling the system and the robot would have to either sit down and rest and wait till these cool down naturally or would need to pee out the ice cooling reservoir bag warm/hot contents and go drink cold liquid and/or ice to fill the bag back up with something that will quickly cool the whole system down again and it can resume work right away this way with no downtime.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2024, 06:22:36 am
content: A colleague pointed out that the robot probably will need massive batteries. I agree with this in part, but with some caveats. Yes, to support the massive number of motors and the large bursts of energy required when most motors are firing all at once during rigorous athletic type activities, you would need massive batteries to supply all of this energy demand during peak periods. You also want the batteries to have a decent overall runtime duration. I intend for it to use fairly massive batteries for these reasons. However, there is a common misconception that the batteries must be so big that the robot is able to run all day on a single charge and that if it only can run for say an hour, that means it will only be capable of working 1 hour then charging and totally idol and not working for an hour or two and then get back to work again which would cap its productivity massively. People then conclude battery technology today rules out humanoids being particularly useful due to the lack of capacity. This is a completely solved problem and indicates people's lack of thinking this through thoroughly. The solution is simple: I don't have to worry much about large capacity for long duration of runtime since my intention is to have it hot swap battery packs frequently and always have 5-10 battery packs charging so that it always will be able to swap a new pack in that is fully charged. This way it can have 24/7 uptime while not having to carry a very large battery pack to have a long runtime. This is the same approach construction workers use with their cordless tools. They have a ton of packs charging at all times and use batteries till they get low and just swap a new fully charged one in as needed. They don't try to fit a entire days work into one giant battery. They have a ton of small batteries charging at all times instead and just hot swap full ones in for low ones. This should have been obvious to everyone as the perfect solution for humanoid robots too.Note: in my design, he will have a significant battery pack in the abdomen which never swaps out and tops itself up from the hot swappable battery backpacks as needed. This abdominal battery pack will enable it to swap in new hot swap battery backpacks since you need batteries running it while the hot swappable packs are being swapped. The hot swappable packs will be worn as a backpack just like a school bookbag. When available, the robot will optionally also be able to plug a AC power cord into the wall outlet to charge, although if it has multiple hot swappable batteries already charging by various available wall outlets then this would be redundant. It is a good tool though in general for some situations.Note: the backpack battery can be taken off and the robot will still have a very limited runtime just based on its abdominal battery pack. It uses this limited time to swap in a new hot swappable battery pack as the primary reason for the abdominal pack, however, another good reason to have a permanent abdominal battery pack is so that it can do demonstrations with no battery backpack on. A use case for this would be: lets say it wants to do a flip or cartwheel and the battery backpack's added weight would be a hindrance for such a maneuver. It could simply take the backpack off, do the flip or cartwheel, then after bowing for applause, it can put the backpack back on.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2024, 08:35:01 pm
content: So the pulleys were working fine except occasionally the thread would wedge between the plastic discs and the bearing causing the system to jam. My solution originally was to cut out finger nail clipping shaped pieces of thin clear plastic to glue onto the inner face of the discs that contain the bearing of the pulley which would act as standoffs preventing the pulley string from sliding between the bearing and the outer discs and jamming. It turned out this was borderline impossible for me as these tiny pieces of plastic were so tiny that even my precision tweezers were barely able to hold them and they would go flying in random directions and get lost - being clear and tiny they were near impossible to find as well. So this led me to taking a step back for a few weeks to work on other unrelated projects and take a break due to this impass/dead end. I came up with some ways to redo the pulleys but hated the idea of scrapping the ones I already made that needed improving. Well I have great news: I did find a way to salvage my existing pulleys that is reasonably doable and not nearly as hard though still tedious as can be. I am using Singer nylon clear monofilament thread and gluing down one end of that to the outer plastic disc of the pulley using superglue applied with the tip of a tiny sewing needle as my applicator and then letting that fully dry (can't use accelerant spray since it has to be very precisely applied and can't get on bearing but is being glued less than a millimeter away from bearing outer race). Then I lay the string along the crack formed between the bearing and the outer plastic disc which fills that crack and I apply glue here and there once every millimeter as I see need for it to secure the string along the entire crack while being careful not to get any on the metal bearing. I use an xacto knife blade to scrape any glue I get on the outer race of the bearing off and any I do get on the bearing I prevent from gluing the clear monofilament thread to the bearing by moving the bearing a couple turns while the glue is drying to keep it from gluing in place. I move the bearing using the tip of the xacto knife blade and I scrape any glue off as I see it on the shiny outer race of the bearing. I use about a 3" long piece of thread each time I do these gap filling passes and then trim off the excess from both sides once done. Attached is a photo with arrows indicating the gap filling clear nylon monofilament thread. I have since tested these pulleys that I fixed and no more jamming is occurring - it worked! Now I want to avoid doing this for every pulley and every crack on every pulley so for now I'm just doing it for known trouble cracks on certain pulleys that prove to jam up the system during testing. Once I can pass all testing without a jam for like 50 back and forth tests in a row, then I'll call this fix done.Note: for future pulley making, to avoid this issue entirely, I plan to make the bearings outer race be grooved before I even make the pulley. This way the string passing over the outer race circumference of the pulley will not end up wedging between the outer disc and the pulley in the crack and jamming. The groove on the outer race of the pulley will keep the string passing along its outer race centralized in that grooved channel so it doesn't walk out and get jammed anywhere. To achieve adding a groove to the bearing outer race, I'm planning to lay the bearing flat on a piece of wax paper and then carefully applying epoxy to the crack between the paper and the pulley outer race filling that crack. Picture caulking a bathtub crack between bathtub and wall. Same concept. Then once that is done I flip the pulley and do the same for the other side. You then end up with a v grooved channel in the outer race of the pulley. The rest of the pulley assembly will continue as usual. Attached is a drawing of a pulley on a piece of wax paper with an epoxy bead applied filling the crack and forming one half of the intended v grooved channel on the outer race of the pulley.Note: hitting that dead end with trying to fix the jamming issues with the pulleys and frustration with the pulley fix caused me to procrastinate on the robot build and temporarily call off my commitment to work on the robot every day even if just one small accomplishment per day. I still love that commitment and am now getting back to that now that I have come up with my solution and am moving forward again. It really is a great commitment to make sure I keep the project alive and actively in development. It is so easy to just not work on the robot once it is no longer part of my daily routine and the last thing I want is for months or years to slip by without me working on the robot much as has happened to me in the past so many times.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 09:54:38 am
content: Sorry for the long wait. Got busy with other stuff. Anyways, I completed the full pulley system and just got done testing it. It did not snag once anymore (rope binding between pulley and flanges) because each spot prone to that issue I fixed by putting some clear thin fishing line across that gap and gluing it down on either end. This closed every gap causing issues before and now everything seems to be going smoothly.I just did a big testing session on the pulley system and it was working perfectly (actuating it by hand for now). However, I got very aggressive and tried to attach a 10 lb dumbbell to one end and test that way. Pretty quickly the bottom-most string of the bottom-most pulley snapped. At first I thought the string itself broke in half but it's 20 lb test so a 10 lb dumbbell statically hanging should have been fine. Turned out it was my knot that came undone! I should have tied it a triple knot at least and put super glue onto it too in order to really secure it. Turns out that particular string attachment point I wanted to upgrade to 70 lb test anyways so it wasn't such a big deal. That will be my next step.Once I get that re-secured, I want to test it out with the 10 lb dumbbell and use a digital fish hanging scale to test the real world mechanical advantage. My intention is to find out how many pounds of pulling force I'm using to raise the 10lb dumbbell. It should be WAY less than 10lb obviously due to the mechanical advantage from all the pulleys. This will also tell us how much friction there is in the system which I'm sure is significant but I will know by this test EXACTLY how much is involved.The fact it is all working in general is very promising. The tests went very well just using one hand pulling down as the weight to be lifted and one hand doing the lifting on the other end. The hand I tried to pull down with was EASILY being lifted up. It did like 10-15 trials with no binding, tangles, or issues of any sort. It just WORKED. Too bad I didn't take a short video of the testing before it broke!

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 03:25:02 am
content: With my existing snatch block and block and tackle style pulley systems tested and working decently at 16:1 downgearing ratio which feels pretty complex and capped out by space constraints, I am now turning my attention back to some prior concepts for rotating in place pulleys I had planned years back and not revisited till now.The basic idea is you have a big pulley and a small pulley attached to eachother one on top of the other and so when the big one winds, the small one moves too and going from a small to a big to a small again (just like gears) gives you mechanical advantage. This is like gearless gears in a way works exact same way as gears except can't go continuously in one direction since its limited by amount of windings you can fit on it.Having a setup like this mounted direct to the motor is a no brainer I think. It will give me a 2:1 or 3:1 downgear straight off the batt and should be fairly easy to make using a 1mm OD x 20mm length stainless steel dowel pin mounted to side of motor sewn into place tightly and then using a little copper tubing for a electrical connector as the rotating sleeve and onto this sleeve gluing down the flanges using the same plastic as what I used for the pulleys (clear sushi and produce containers plastic). That pre-downgearing at the location of the motor will bring our Archimedes pulley system from 16:1 down to 32:1 and possibly 48:1 roughly if we can get between 2:1 and 3:1 downgearing ratio on the motor.I also am considering just doing ONLY these types of rotating in place pulleys instead of the Archimedes pulleys style of downgearing. It might be more space efficient perhaps. I don't know which will be more robust and which will be a maintenance nightmare. I just dont know which is easiest to work with. Also which is easier to make. I have to make both styles and compare. I think the turn in place style may be more space efficient by a long shot but not 100% sure on this.When I do the turn in place style mounted flat onto the robot's bones, I plan to use a flat head thumb tack for this as the bone mounted base and then have the rotating pulleys turning in place over this. The flat head thumb tack can be sewn tightly onto the bone sleeve to secure it in place well. I'm not sure how well this approach will scale to higher forces of larger muscles though. Perhaps it will scale fine if I just make the pulleys bigger. So much to experiment with...

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 09:05:36 am
content: Before you reinvent the wheel and waste a lot of time and money - are you aware of Gael Langevin's InMoov project?https://inmoov.fr/project/That could give you some inspiration.BTW, don't use Maya for the design, that is not software suitable for anything mechanical. You need proper CAD, leave Maya for the "soft" stuff like skin, etc.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 09:33:07 am
content: Thanks for the tips janoc. I've seen Inmoov and learned all about it. I am against using metal geared servos for a humanoid. Don't fit well and are too loud. Are not designed to fit the form factor of a humanoid at all. Also Inmoov's final product is basically a toy that doesn't look human at all and is not robust at all. Has little to no purpose. My design will be a fully human looking near human strength totally silent running state of the art. No comparison. Has nothing to do with reinventing the wheel. Inmoov's goal is 1% the magnitude and ambition of my goal. No comparison.As far as selecting a program for my CAD work, considering I'm basically done with all CAD and used Maya the whole time, it's a little late for that comment and the comment is obviously false. There is absolutely zero reason you would not use Maya for all manner of CAD and you are just repeating a common misnomer about it.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 10:06:00 pm
content: Well, I have seen the InMoov's robots first hand and actually met Gael, so I think I will disagree with your assessment - esp. when, unlike you, he has the robots functioning and is exhibiting them for years. Even though they are an art project and not intended to be a Terminator replica.The rest of what you posted - no comment ...Good luck. You will certainly need it.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 10:11:30 pm
content: Inmoov actually works unlike mine? What is the point of that comment. Of course finished robot's work better than ones that are still in R&D. It's as if you are being deliberately foolish.You admit its just an art project. You will NEVER see Inmoov robots mowing lawns, running factories, doing sports, dancing realistically, fixing a car, etc. My robot is supposed to do all of those things and Inmoov cannot nor ever will because it is designed to be able to do next to nothing. So to suggest I switch my design to Inmoov then betrays you didn't read my project goal. You advised something that directly goes AGAINST me achieving my goals and expect me to hop on gladly. Foolish.Maya can get you 90 deg angles and flat polygonal models as well as smooth curving. So you pretending like it can only do "soft" models is foolish. Enough.

author: Manul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 10:22:04 pm
content: That is truly a WTF project. I will however try to comment constructively. My concern is reliability. You should really think about it sooner than later. If not properly designed, any complex system can quickly become a bottomless pit of time and effort to maintain. Something wears out, something breaks, something goes out of calibration/tolerances. Or if you need to modify, replace something, it might be difficult and cause maladjustment somewhere else and so on. Same with software systems, good fundamentals from beginning are very important, otherwise fixing one bug makes two new ones or even worse - whole system collapses like a house of cards. Hard to stress enough. For instance, your tendons system. When you later write software for movement and balancing there might be too much play and other uncertainties making it very hard to make stable control loops. Or if you make it stable, something might get slightly loose next day. So I don't know what, but you need to do something to make it reliable and maintainable.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2024, 10:33:47 pm
content: Good points Manul. Pretty sure my software is good on that front as I have experience with vast software AI projects from the past and did not have issues with bugs like you were pointing out. My coding style I guess was safe on that front.As far as the tendons, I'm not concerned about slack because the final joint angle measuring will be done at the joint and not rely on motor rotation measuring that may not be reflected at the final joint because of slack or w/e. So that solves the issue you brought up on that front.But the overall issue of low maintenance systems I can only try my best because I lack experience in this area and won't know what things last and what don't last. I think maintenance will be a bit of a nightmare but don't see any way to avoid this because I don't know what parts will be high maintenance and why due to lack of experience. For all I know, each thing I implement will work with little to no maintenance on that thing OR could be a high maintenance item and I have no way to know this in advance.Another big side challenge is figuring out the best way to enable me to access all parts of robot for repairs as easily as possible.Assuming the robot requires heavy maintenance when done, as we all can safely assume considering it is very complex with lots of tiny moving parts, this is to be expected, especially for a zero experience manufacturer DIYing it. That all said, my goal will be to have the robots do their own maintenance on themselves and if/when I have more than one robot, they can do maintenance on one another so that I myself do little to no maintenance on my robot fleet. This goes along with my goal of building robots that finish building their own body once they have a single arm and head built. And also my goal to have them then build more robots after they build themselves. If they can build themselves, they can surely maintain themselves too. So that issue is solved in that way and making them super low maintenance if they can maintain themselves automatically becomes less critical although still a nice stretch goal of course.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2024, 01:42:06 am
content: I finished fixing the fishing line on the bottom-most pulley with 5 knots this time to make sure it doesn't untie. I hung the 10lb dumbbell from the pulley system and to my horror, two fishing line points snapped almost immediately in two new spots. These fishing lines were rated 20lb test and 130lb test. How is a 10lb dumbbell snapping them when hung gently? I don't get this AT ALL. I am wondering if it is a quality control issue with the fishing line or false advertising or just a bad manufacturer or what. Any thoughts? This is VERY frustrating and baffling to me. They did not untie this time they literally snapped in half. This is truly baffling.Update: some more clues: turns out both snap points were within a millimeter from where the fishing line entered into the bone fabric sleeve where it was stitched over and over to tie it well into the sleeve. Perhaps this area just sort of was weakened by the sleeve and tugging at that spot and abrasion somehow? I am thinking I should tie a small metal ring into the bone fabric sleeve and then tie the fishing line onto that ring with a figure eight knot so that the fishing line doesn't chafe on the nylon fabric as much and has that little separation point tying off on the smooth metal. Hopefully that will solve it.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 07:55:26 am
content: So this is my question. Why go to such extraordinary lengths to build a mimic of a human being when the world is already full of the real thing?You can make your own easily enough: a brief moment of pleasure, a twenty year wait, and there it is: ready to go.Or, if you need one for a specific purpose you can do this thing whereby you place an advert, and then select the best one from the applicants. You pay them so much money per month and they do the job you need doing. They can cook foods, clean your house, all sorts.It seems pointless to build something that already exists by the million.I think the sensible thing to do is to build one that isbetterthan the real thing. Maybe one that will withstand high temperatures for rescuing people from fires. Or one with weaponry built in to act as a soldier. One that can explore the sea bed or the surface of the moon.Despite the extraordinary difficulty of what you're trying to achieve, I believe you have set your sights too low.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 08:29:03 am
content: @steve:You ask "Why go to such extraordinary lengths to build a mimic of a human being when the world is already full of the real thing?" --- what we will find as humanoid robotics advances is the more they advance the more human they will look until you cannot distinguish. Then society will be filled with more robots than humans and they will all be hard to distinguish from real people. So to future proof my project from the outset, I went for realism right away. Anything less and to the degree it looks not human is how funny and amateurish it will be perceived in history of robotics later on. Students will literally laugh at how bad it looks by comparison to the robots that look 100% human in their day. And "bad" is defined as "not exactly human in appearance with realism". So by that metric I want to ensure my robot passes this test as much as possible to give it longevity and not make it outdated looking for the future.Additionally, I can bypass rules and regulations of stores or w/e and social norms with my robot if it passes for human at least from a distance. Have it shop without causing a stir and employees calling in a manager to report a robot shopping in their store for example. If it passes for human, no phone call is made, no stir made, nobody alarmed, people go about their day, my shopping gets done. That type of thing applies for ANY public use of the robot to avoid issues. Like delivery robots get robbed all the time because people see it as a victimless crime more. But if the robot passed for a human, nobody would even consider vandalism or robbing it because they would assume felony charges (harming a human) rather than misdemeanor (harming a robot). So you protect your robot by it passing for human from harm.You say "You can make your own easily enough: a brief moment of pleasure, a twenty year wait, and there it is: ready to go." --- I disagree with this premise. First note that robot literally means "slave". You cannot expect your kids to be your slaves. Sure they might help a BIT if you figure out a way to coax them into helping you or make working with you fun for them, but more often than not, getting any assistance from your kid is like pulling teeth for the most part. They'd rather be off playing or w/e than helping dad out. A robot on the other hand will help you 24/7. No human would even come close to that for free or even paid. The robot's 24/7 service is FREE. Also depending on its strength and speed and precision, it can be faster, stronger, and more precise than a human at working while working 24/7 to boot. So it would be the equivalent to say 5-6 human workers then ideally speaking or best case depending on the job. And at $60k/yr for each of those 5-6 workers, that's $350k/yr of money saved per year for same amount of help from your robot. And those workers would likely be only helping you on just one or two things and require training and with worker turnover you have to RETRAIN the replacement etc. Not to mention screening, interviewing, etc. And lawsuits risks, injury risks, etc. All the red tape. Unions. The amount of reasons to avoid human helpers is limitless. Drama, racism, bad attitudes, lying false witnesses, sinful conversations, you name it. So finding actual great workers who cause no issues and are upright and kind is SUPER hard and ones that aren't lazy and work really hard even more hard to find. And so on. Then you have them calling off or lying for "sick leave" and wanting paid vacations or w/e often unreasonable demands and raise demands etc. The headaches ABOUND. The robot is bringing ZERO of these potential issues and is guaranteed to be perfect in every way as long as its made well of course.The robot can do hundreds or thousands of jobs whereas your employee would just do the one or two basic things they were trained for. So that's another HUGE advantage.So yeah, I've hired employees over the years and always regretted it. I'd prefer to never do it again. I'd prefer the ULTIMATE employee that is also FREE labor FOR LIFE and never complains and behaves EXACTLY as you teach it to and is just perfect in every way. Will never talk back, nap on job, sneak, lie, sexually harass, quit, demand raises, unionize, etc etc etc etc. Just instead is ideal in all facets.Also, the robot can build more robot slaves to serve your every whim and these also are free slaves for life. You can have an army of free slaves minus cost of materials but the robots can work to make their own living and pay you every dime they make so the materials costs would be taken out of that so zero out of pocket then and instead over time you just make millions of dollars passively per year with your robot army doing it all and just obeying you always in all things. You get to be a king of all your minions and sit back and have it all.You say "It seems pointless to build something that already exists by the million." --- yeah, if only they were free and signed up willingly to be your slave and behaved 100% flawlessly always and zero drama or issues which is not the case. There are MANY downsides as laid out above which makes robot slave 1 million percent better than human paid laborersYou say "I think the sensible thing to do is to build one that isbetterthan the real thing." --- My robot will be better than the real thing in all the ways pointed out above (ideally, theoretically of course)You say "Maybe one that will withstand high temperatures for rescuing people from fires." ---- this would only be useful to a fire department and I'm not a fire department. I also have no intention of EVER selling one because each robot's value to me personally would outweigh any reasonable sale price. I mean if someone offered me $500 million or more of course then I'd say fine take it. But shy of that no way. Because their purchase price would have to outweigh DECADES of free labor my robot would provide me and the entire lifetime earnings potential that robot would bring. And assuming that robot can output say $250k/yr in earnings.... then that's millions of dollars over the long haul. And if you factor in it building more robots and potentially building businesses and running those businesses, it could earn millions per year even - you never know.You say "Or one with weaponry built in to act as a soldier." --- I'm sure this would be immediately outlawed if my personal robot did this and then I'd lose my robot instantly. So this would have to be done through a military contract only and only a licensed arms dealer could legally do this in a contract with DARPA. I wouldn't even know where to begin such a path and at the end of the day where is my personally useful robot. And all of this is assuming I even agreed to be a weapon maker which has its own ethical concerns. I'd have to be VERY politically onboard with my country's military and believe the cause of all future conflicts my robot would take part in for said military would be righteous and I don't have that belief based on movies I've seen. The military is always corrupt in movies I've seen. From Rambo to Jason Bourne series to you name it. TONS of corruption I've seen.You say "One that can explore the sea bed or the surface of the moon." --- people already made both. And neither are of any use to me personally.You say "Despite the extraordinary difficulty of what you're trying to achieve, I believe you have set your sights too low." --- I don't believe you have proven this really. And I disagree.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 08:30:43 am
content: The other thing concerning me is the vast complexity of the software that will need development. It took Boston Dynamics years to make a biped that would walk over uneven ground and you need to replicate all that yourself without breaching any patents. Then on top of all that you require an exceptionally accomplished AI layer.Looking at the quality of the parts you've made, you've got a way to go before you can rely on their quality, but I guess this is just par for the course in the early days.By the way, saying the human skeleton and physical layout cannot be improved upon is ridiculous! Of course it can - it's the product of millions of years of scrappy evolution; evolution which selects only on ability to stay alive long enough to reproduce.Obvious improvements might include continuously rotatable hands, extensible limbs, eyes all around the head, and so on.I guess this is a project that could occupy a whole lifetime, but I don't believe it is remotely achievable by one person

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 08:36:54 am
content: There was a degree of irony in what I suggested regarding using humans instead.Personally I think this project will fail, big time. The reason being that you have MASSIVELY underestimated the complexity of what you are trying to achieve. I mean, really, I believe you have no conception at all of how immensely complicated the software will need to be.Having said that, I do wish you success and look forward to periodic updates.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 08:40:29 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on October 04, 2024, 08:30:43 amI've been ignoring this thread after reading the first couple of posts, but feel I have to respond to (perhaps) save some people valuable time.I don't have the link, but I had the misfortune to watch a bit of a video, where, he's relying almost exclusively on ChatGPT to try to do the coding for this project. Fair enough some people use ChatGPT to get a general idea about how some things might be coded, but this was on another level.It's an "art" project at best (and that's a stretch).

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 09:11:46 am
content: @steveYou say "The other thing concerning me is the vast complexity of the software that will need development." --- sure that's alot of work but fun IMO. Worth it. Also, Boston Dynamics coded most of it by hand. I plan to code an AI that learns to code itself and thereby codes itself by hand. So that means the robot itself codes the robot instead of a team taking years to do it. Way easier that way and way less work that way.You say "you need to replicate all that yourself without breaching any patents." --- I am strongly against patents used to patent troll and stop advancement of technology. So even trying to see if I am breaching any patents will NEVER be done by me. I will just code and ignore all patents fully. And this is not ever going to be an issue unless I were to try to sell my code. If the code is for personal use the patents it may breach would not be relevant. Also, in the event it did breach some patent, and I did decide to sell, at that future point in time I'd merely have to pay the patent holders their cut IF it came to that. And hopefully, they'd be reasonable. But likely they would be predatory. So ideally I'd stay under their radar. They are likely just complete scumbags looking to score big. People try to make the most obvious and generic patents to try to be able to just take money from real entrepreneurs who will step on their landmine type patent. So walking a minefield is part of software dev and you just hope you don't walk on a landmine (get sued by some patent troll). But like I said, all of that is likely never an issue unless my software was sold and sold on such a huge scale that it triggered a troll to come out of hiding salivating for his predatory slice of my pie.You say "By the way, saying the human skeleton and physical layout cannot be improved upon is ridiculous! Of course it can - it's the product of millions of years of scrappy evolution;" ---- I don't believe in macro evolution. I'm a creationist. So your argument I disagree with on premise. But even WITH that premise I would still disagree. The human body regardless of origin story is a marvel of engineering and if you studied it then you would come to learn this yourself. It cannot be topped. In all ways it is superior to anything anybody could ever come up with and there is 0% chance to even make a single improvement on its design. Impossible. The closer you stick to its design the better the end robot.You say "Obvious improvements might include continuously rotatable hands" --- would ruin the strength of the ulna and radius combo, add a failure point in electrical wiring issues, would make the outsourcing of storage of actuators for the fingers in the arm etc impossible which would force all actuators to fit in hand itself which would make hand overly weak etc etc. You speak from ignorance here.You say "extensible limbs" --- impractical, creates unnecessary complications. see problems above with other idea you presented for a taste of why this is also a poor idea.You say "eyes all around the head" --- totally unnecessary and unneeded. For the occasional desire to see what is behind, it can look behind just like we do. What is behind doesn't need constant surveillance and access to it would be unneeded. You also don't consider that this would ruin it looking human and all the advantage looking exactly human bring. Also it then couldn't have hair which would block back of head eyes etc. Just bad idea.You say "I guess this is a project that could occupy a whole lifetime, but I don't believe it is remotely achievable by one person" --- perhaps not. Perhaps I'll have help. I mean for one thing if my goal to just build a arm and head that then build the rest of its own body and then also code itself to do everything once it has a bear minimum level of code needed to be smart enough to code itself... if that is possible then it is way more doable by one person you see.You say "Personally I think this project will fail, big time." --- if more than 1 in 10k people did not have this view, the project would not be worth doing IMO. In order for a project to be epic enough to make it exciting for me long term, it is necessary that 99.99999% of all people who hear of the project are certain it will fail. Then in taking on such a far fetched "impossible" task, the carrot on the end of the stick is sufficiently huge to make the project thrilling to me. Proving wrong that many people that confident in the project's failure is the carrot. The proving wrong is not meant to be a spiteful thing, only a amusement really.Consider the following: you are with a couple friends walking through the woods as kids. You ask them hey guys do you think I can jump over that creek? If they say "impossble, nobody can do that, not even my dad who is a awesome athelete" then that is my cue to roll up my sleeves and go for it. If they say "easy, anybody can jump that" then that is my cue to find another challenge. If I'm not impressing them then it just isn't fun. I like to do things impressive to others. That makes it fun. This isn't a pride thing. The enjoyment is in the thrill you give THEM if you succeed. The eyes wide astonishment and applause type thing. That is fun for THEM and for you. It need not be a selfish thing. It is entertainment in a way. I think I always enjoyed entertaining people. I like to make people laugh for their benefit and my own. I like to do stuff impressive to them for their benefit and my own. I like to get reactions out of people by doing things extraordinary in terms of humor, difficulty, outlandishness, extremeness, etc. I just like to be different and stand out for it. This applies to many facets of life. You could call this attention whoring but I don't think there needs to be a negative label necessarily. There can be a form of attention whoring that is healthy, not toxic, and pure, righteous, and admirable in all facets. I think I go for that. There need not be low self esteem involved. There need not be poor morals and attention at all costs involved. There need not be greed involved. And getting attention isn't the only thing that need be involved. There are MANY carrots on this stick.Note: its not only the challenge level others can see. I also like to PERSONALLY challenge myself. And the challenge ideally should be something I myself think is on the edge of impossible. If it is too easy, I will never know what my true potential could be. So I prefer a lifelong project to be really the hardest thing imaginable for me to pull off. It also has to play to my strengths and gifts. This checks all those boxes.Note: there is also the childlike sense of awe I have for impressive robots that comes to play. My childlike sense of awe for robotics that are sufficiently impressive borders on eyes wide mouth open pure glee like the little kids seeing Gandalf the Gray light fireworks. I have some of that for robots. I don't think most adults have much of that for anything after a while so I like to press into it as it is a gift and blessing.You say "The reason being that you have MASSIVELY underestimated the complexity of what you are trying to achieve." --- That is pure assumption on your part. I could have correctly estimated the complexity and yet have the blind confidence or gall to attempt to pull it off despite this complexity I rightly estimated not shying away from that part of the challenge but accepting it and saying "game on". Some people like pursuing "the impossible".You say "I mean, really, I believe you have no conception at all of how immensely complicated the software will need to be." --- I think I do have a conception of it, however, neither one of us can truly know. Also, as I said, if the robot makes his own software, then that complexity is outsourced to the robot. Can't rule that out.@shabazYou say "I've been ignoring this thread after reading the first couple of posts, but feel I have to respond to (perhaps) save some people valuable time." --- very odd response. But to each his own.You say "I don't have the link, but I had the misfortune to watch a bit of a video, where, he's relying almost exclusively on ChatGPT to try to do the coding for this project. Fair enough some people use ChatGPT to get a general idea about how some things might be coded, but this was on another level." --- It seems like you condemn over-reliance on chat gpt for assistance in coding. I disagree with this stance. There is nothing wrong with using it to its fullest potential as assistance. For so many things I don't use it for coding but for some stuff I think it saves time. Not all aspects of the coding do I even use it for. It seems that you assume I am a poor coder based on using chatgpt alot for some specific aspects of the code. I don't agree. I really don't see any issue at all.You say "It's an "art" project at best (and that's a stretch)." --- I've heard that argument made before and disagree. That type of stance will fade really soon though. Once I pass certain benchmarks, I'll be beyond that type of reproach from skeptics. The respect is already starting to take over the skepticism that was much more rampant in the early days. Now you are one of the stubborn holdouts examples. Granted, most don't think I'll succeed, but the total rejection that I've done or am doing anything impressive or worthy of some respect you are bringing is now becoming rare. I have innovated and progressed further than most ever expected and the type of major skeptics like you are really getting quiet anymore. I still expect "you'll never pull this off" but don't expect "you've achieve nothing of note at all and are a total noob and suck at robotics and literally have achieved nothing" type of people anymore. But to my surprise they still exist albeit rare. Give it a few more years and no way I'll see that anymore its just shocking at this point even.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 09:23:51 am
content: I see you've addressed me, but TLDR. I'm not being rude, it's a fact that the above is too much to read for the amount of value I will extract from it (I watched bits of your video, that was enough).I merely hoped to respond to Steve and others, not to you, because someone has to say it (for the benefit of hopefully saving other people's time, not you; you are clearly fine with investing that time of course.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 10:20:14 am
content: and lengthy answers like this deter people(s) ... to me that seems way too excessive ... almost aggressive@Artby you should cool down for a while, expressing opinions is not bad, nor insulting youand yes i did saw bits of video too .... enough is the same answer

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 11:49:20 am
content: I just want to make a point to anyone following this thread out there, if I may. There are some very advanced robots already being developed by some very dedicated and brilliant engineers. You can search for them easily. For example, one is the Ameca robot here -https://engineeredarts.co.uk/robot/ameca/I am not at all stating it is the best one but I'm making a point. Look at the design and compare it to the robot being described in this thread. Do you see the differences in the internal mechanisms? Do you see fishing line running around pulleys to simulated human bones, or something different? Do you see them trying to mimic the internal structure of the human body. No, you don't.The point is these engineers (and other robotic engineers) have used what you see because it is better and necessary to the reliable function of the machine and control functions, and would not have wasted time and money on what is being described in this thread.Now, you will probably notice that the OP will retort quite forcefully about this, but I'd encourage the reader to just do some research on the topic and see for yourself what the best designers are doing in robotics.Thank you for reading.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 11:59:33 am
content: @xrunnerYou say relating to Ameca: "I am not at all stating it is the best one but I'm making a point. Look at the design and compare it to the robot being described in this thread. Do you see the differences in the internal mechanisms? Do you see fishing line running around pulleys to simulated human bones, or something different? Do you see them trying to mimic the internal structure of the human body. No, you don't." --- by this you are inferring that no talented and brilliant engineers are using fishing line or similar internal mechanisms and none are using simulated human bones and none are trying to mimic the internal structure of the human body. This is just your ignorance shining through. Clone robotics is mimicking the human bone structure of the human body and therobotstudio who is a full time professional robotics expert with degrees in it and 30+ years experience in the field is using fishing line winched by actuators in the forearms to actuate the fingers similar to myself. Those are just two popular robot makers using a similar approach. Also Will Cogley is using fishing line winched by actuators in the forearms to actuate the fingers similar to myself. Will Cogley is a extremely highly respected roboticist and pretty famous within the field. So you see one robot and think that's the only viable way and anybody with a different approach is dumb and disqualified. Just ignorance. Do your homework before confidently speaking nonsense.You say "The point is these engineers (and other robotic engineers) have used what you see because it is better and necessary to the reliable function" --- by this you infer that pulley systems, fishing line for actuation, and biomimicry for bone structure are all 3 absolute non-starters in the field and absolutely cannot work. This is utterly false and ignorant to claim. As proven by the 3 robot makers listed above and many more. The pulleys system I am using is the only thing truly novel in my approach and is just a alternative to metal gearing which is too noisy. The fishing lines usage and biomimetic bone structure are both not novel approaches. Also Therobotstudio used biomimetic bones AND fishing line in his previous line of robots for years and had some significant success there. Only recently he switched to more hinged based instead of biomimetic bones.You say "Now, you will probably notice that the OP will retort quite forcefully about this, but I'd encourage the reader to just do some research on the topic" --- the guy who did zero research on the topic and proves his ignorance is encouraging everyone to do more research that he himself failed to do. Hypocrite.

author: digger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 12:03:32 pm
content: what's the point of deterring the OP?go for it, AbR

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 12:14:17 pm
content: @diggerYou say "what's the point of deterring the OP?" --- I did not detect that motive. In my assessment, it seems at least a couple of them are striving just to convince all readers of my thread to #1 not take the thread seriously, #2 consider this project a joke and failure as a certainty #3 consider that any ideas I present or designs are all bad as a rule #4 that I suck at coding.Motives behind this are unclear. Perhaps they want to help others avoid pursuing robotics in a similar vein to save them time since they see it as a dead end. They may be right. I don't think they are right but if that's their goal then that's kind of considerate of them. But still comes across as haters and rude IMO. Not tactful in their approach and they have zero regard for me or my feelings etc. Kind of like sociopaths, brute beasts, wild animals. Just very disgusting disregard for their fellow man. Outright mean people.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 12:28:12 pm
content: @Artbyrobot,What percentage, roughly, of the text you have posted in this thread was written verbatim by a real human being?And how much has been processed by some kind of modern LLM?In my opinion, the most fascinating thing about this thread is not the robotics project... It's the author. I mean that honestly, without rhetoric.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 12:40:42 pm
content: You say "What percentage, roughly, of the text you have posted in this thread was written verbatim by a real human being?And how much has been processed by some kind of modern LLM?" --- 100% of the text in this thread posted by me is written by me and I did not consult with an LLM for any of it. I type 60 WPM and the thoughts flow directly from my mind to my fingers. In my view, every response one might consider "long" was just as though you started up a topic with me at a dinner party and I gave a sub 2-3 minute verbal response. It is really not long at all by normal standards. But this social media twitter generation thinks anything over 1 or two sentences is a book and they don't like to read books. And each sentence MUST be a sentence fragment with a emoji. I just am not into that AT ALL. I have a strong desire to fully express my thoughts thoroughly and by doing so I am also able to avoid misunderstandings of my written message by elucidating my thought fully.Additionally, I am very passionate about robotics and these topics I enjoy to discuss and a project thread is the only place I feel free to discuss my passion projects. Many years ago I stopped discussing these topics with friends and family because it bores them. I have no ears to discuss such things with, even here honestly. People just complain if I say more than a sentence or two. Even here people really don't care much about what I have to say. But the long term historical value of such a thread lends itself to YEARS later a curious reader reading the entire thread ravenously like a book and finding the back and forth fascinating and insightful. It is really that highly interested reader with a passion for the topics at hand that these messages are intended for mostly. I myself would very much enjoy finding such a thread and reading it in its entirety if found. It would be like a goldmine for me personally. So that type of person is my hopeful target one day. Hopefully, it will educate them, entertain them, and give them food for thought. The reader saying I didn't read that long post is NOT my target. He can care less about any of this. He doesn't even read the whole thread, has no interest in the project or my thoughts, and is here only to fling cloaked insults and aspersions.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 01:15:52 pm
content: @artbyrobot -- what I am missing in your approach is some basic estimates on the required forces and velocities for all your "muscles", followed by estimates of the required volume, weight and electrical power consumption (based on commercially available motors).You are aiming extremely high here with your goal of replicating all degrees of freedom of the human body, in the same form factor and with human-like agility and fluidity of motion. It looks like you started to cobble together pulley drives etc. right away, without at least rough estimates of the performance requirements? You really need to take that engineering approach of starting with top-down estimates, otherwise you will design yourself into a corner.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 01:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 04, 2024, 09:11:46 amThis is what I'm worried about. You think you can write some basic code to kick it off, which will then write the rest of the code for you. But this is so far away from what AI is about and can do that I think you will be disappointed.The concept is tempting, but I need to explain. Before anyone can write the code - be it AI or human - someone has tospecify the functionality, otherwise it'll just grow uncontrollably in random, purposeless directions. And specifying the functionality is what requires 99% of the work, not the coding. Coding is what you delegate to coders: human or otherwise. So there's no chance you can set it going and just sit back.How will it know what its god (you) wants?To summarise:1/ The mechanics of the task are keeping the OP occupied and happy. But I don't think the OP understands at all the size of the task required to produce the software. The idea that we can take a little bit of AI code and tell it "build me a word processor", "build me a graphics editor" or "build me a robot" is for the birds. It is magical thinking, and I predict the software will be the downfall of this project.2/ The OP has an answer to every point raised by others, but I don't believe he is actuallythinking about and consideringthese points.I don't believe the OP has done anything at all to familiarise himself with current state of the art in robotics.People have already made robots with string and pulleys - over 200 years ago!3/ Apart from the magic software, I don't think this is fundamentally different from any other automaton, is it? No new technology that I can see, here. It seems too much like lots of other automata (especially the 19th century ones), which begs the question: why am I retreading old ground? And yes, uncannilly lifelike partial robots can be seen all over the place online.4/ The OP is severely hampered by his Christian belief, because it prevents him from recognising that the human form is imperfect ("God made Man in his own image", so we must be perfect, too) . That puts major and unnecessary constraints on the scope of his ideas.I don't want the OP to respond to this post, because we are already going in circles. This post is for the sake of balance, when others come to read the thread.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 01:24:49 pm
content: QuoteThis is evasive and doesn't answer the question. It doesn't preclude you being an LLM yourself (perhaps one set up to try to pass the Turing test).QuoteIf you are an LLM, you wouldn't need to consult with a second LLM.Setting up an automated user account that responds to posts in a thread would be trivial to do. Also probably a violation of the forum's AUP.Kudos on your typing speed though, I've never known anyone to type that fast and make so few mistakes, very impressive.Doesn't pass the Turing test in my opinion though

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 01:26:15 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on October 04, 2024, 01:15:52 pm@ebastler: one thing for sure, the OP is NO engineer.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2024, 11:52:22 pm
content: @ebastlerYou say "what I am missing in your approach is some basic estimates on the required forces and velocities for all your "muscles", followed by estimates of the required volume, weight and electrical power consumption (based on commercially available motors)." --- I have done this calculation work privately but did not post it on my project public updates. I have only done very in depth calculations for finger joint actuation so far but the other muscles of the human body are proportional in size to strength ratio with the finger muscles so just knowing the size of motors that work for fingers, you can estimate the size of motors needed for the other muscles accordingly with significant accuracy in my opinion. In other words, say a human muscle is the size of a thick black permanent marker and another human muscle is twice that size. If you calculated the motor that matches the first marker, in order to select a motor to match the muscle that is twice that size you'd merely need to find a motor that outputs twice as much as the first motor and generally that means that motor is about twice the size of the first motor in can size volume along with the increased specs being about twice. Granted it's good to do the detailed math eventually to make sure but this will get you close to estimate when ordering motors initially.I will post shortly a full math in detail that I've done and never thought to post (did not think there'd be interest to see it). In fact, I still am pretty sure there is zero interest in seeing the math I've done on this other than the interest to point out it was not shown in an effort to discredit me and make me look amateurish to poke fun at me frankly. But regardless the reasons I'll post it shortly.You say "You are aiming extremely high here with your goal of replicating all degrees of freedom of the human body, in the same form factor and with human-like agility and fluidity of motion." --- I agree it is a high aim but I also am certain this will be the bear minimum standard for humanoid robotics in the future and aiming for anything shy of it now would ensure my project is outdated by the time it's done and would be considered sub par and total trash by people in the future were it not to achieve these minimum benchmarks you just mentioned.You say "It looks like you started to cobble together pulley drives etc. right away, without at least rough estimates of the performance requirements?" --- that's utterly false. I first had rough estimates before I began even designing the pulleys and then I had hard specific numbers before I began the physical building of them.You say "You really need to take that engineering approach of starting with top-down estimates, otherwise you will design yourself into a corner." --- I have done so and so I agree with this advice and practice it already.@steveYou say "You think you can write some basic code to kick it off, which will then write the rest of the code for you. But this is so far away from what AI is about and can do that I think you will be disappointed." --- I assume by this you are referring to popular industry standard AI - like LLMs and their limitations. I agree with you on that. Which is one reason why I have zero interest in using or developing LLMs and have no interest in following ANY AI done by ANYBODY else. I am making my own custom AI that can do this type of thing in question and thrive at it (in theory, ideally).You say "The concept is tempting, but I need to explain. Before anyone can write the code - be it AI or human - someone has to specify the functionality, otherwise it'll just grow uncontrollably in random, purposeless directions." --- I agree. I already have laid out for the AI its chores, its roles socially, its "family" aka my own family, etc. Then its research and self learning and the accompanying code it makes stemming from its research and self learning will be goal oriented toward enabling it to fulfill its chores and tasks as well as its social functions. This will prevent it from coding irrelevant things that go into too many rabbit holes and wasted time for it.Also, I'm not going to release it randomly to just start coding randomly. I will be directly supervising and revising and overseeing all the coding it does on a regular basis to ensure quality and relevance. If I see it going into things I deem irrelevant I can tell it to stop that and get back on track for example. Your notion of it growing uncontrollably like I'm going to set it and forget it is not at all reflecting the very structured way I intend for it to learn and grow and be supervised in its learning. I will have fine control of the whole process.You say "And specifying the functionality is what requires 99% of the work, not the coding." --- I disagree. Not sure really what you even mean by this. I'd say its the very opposite of what you just said here.You say "Coding is what you delegate to coders: human or otherwise." --- coding an AI that is custom and world class and one of a kind and completely innovative is not something I would delegate to others. That is a recipe for failure. I must do that myself and then hand the baton to the robot itself to assist me in furthering the development. The core AI that enables an AI to code AI is one AI - I call it the seed. Once the seed is made, that seed can be planted and grow into a tree. I'd be the husbandman of that tree, trimming it, watering it, protecting it from bugs, overseeing its progress, and harvesting fruit from it. I cannot delegate the seed making since that is something never before done to my knowledge and HARD. I will only delegate the tree growth to the seed.You say "So there's no chance you can set it going and just sit back. How will it know what its god (you) wants?" --- I already specified what I want like 100 pages of this type of stuff from ethics to rules of social engagements to task scheduling and priorities to daily social interactions to trust systems for sources of new information to what types of research I want it to do etc. But just as my children IRL don't learn unsupervised, but require constant adult direction, so also it will be as my robot learns and codes itself like my children code themselves with adults supervising. It is not a sitting back thing at all I agree.You say "The idea that we can take a little bit of AI code and tell it "build me a word processor", "build me a graphics editor"" --- that's really not quite how this works in my plans though frankly. The seed (little bit of AI enabling it to code) just gets me to a more collaborative coding arrangement with the AI where it begins self learning with direct supervision and will most likely be quite error prone at first and amateurish - this would be like a child in infancy just learning to learn. At this phase it requires very strict supervision and is not particularly productive and the goal is just getting it better at coding and giving it more and more rules to clean up its code production and improve that on simple coding tasks. Only YEARS later as it continues to collaboratively learn with me and gets more and more advanced would it be getting into being able to make independent code for outside software projects. There's a difference between it coding itself in my own custom coding language for it to code itself and for it to code in C++ or w/e an outside software project for end users to use which you are proposing here. That's apples and oranges. I will say that after years of slow growth and correction, the type of requests you posted here may be on the table as possibilities. But you suggesting that RIGHT OFF THE JUMP from the seed phase it taking on "build me a word processor" and doing that successfully is just a obvious non-starter but I never claimed or intended that understanding. That type of complex job done by it is at full grown mature tree phase, not seed phase, and that type of job would be mature fruit bearing. A seedling does not bear fruit yet. So you are jumping the gun by decades on that type of task ask. I never was suggesting that.You say "I predict the software will be the downfall of this project." --- well most predict the software, and every aspect of the hardware will be the downfall or rather the downfall has already happened and I will never even pass the starting line. So at least you are making it sound like there's a chance on the other stuff! LOL.You say "The OP has an answer to every point raised by others, but I don't believe he is actually thinking about and considering these points." --- I disagree. I have thought about them for many years and already addressed them all years ago. This is mostly all rehash.You say "I don't believe the OP has done anything at all to familiarize himself with current state of the art in robotics." --- that's not true. Every youtube channel even relevant to the field I've seen most of the videos available in even tons of adjacent fields. Thousands and thousands of hours of study. Every robot related podcast I've devoured that I could get my hands on as well. Even lectures given at universities on robotics I've devoured. My notes are enough to produce books.You say "People have already made robots with string and pulleys - over 200 years ago!" --- I have not gone into 200+ year old robotics projects research admittedly. That source of information I have not really come across nor do I think its very relevant necessarily to modern materials and techniques available.You say "I don't think this is fundamentally different from any other automaton, is it? No new technology that I can see, here." --- there are dozens of innovations I've made from the means of cooling the motors to the means of cooling the air and the manner of water cooling systems and ice cooling systems and peeing systems and the manner in which I attach the motors and the bone sleeves idea and the use of a medical skeleton and the use of bldc motors with external downgearing located physically significantly far away from the motor within the robot, etc etc these are all significant innovations never before done to my knowledge. So no, there's TONS of new technological breakthroughs I'm bringing here.You say "It seems too much like lots of other automata (especially the 19th century ones)" --- I know little about that but am pretty sure they had a single motor and the whole thing was like a clock with countless gears and cogs. Mine is nothing like that. Not even sure why you make this comparison. Bizarre. And they had no software so were not robots. They were just clocks in a way - well clockwork devices, not time pieces.You say "And yes, uncannily lifelike partial robots can be seen all over the place online." --- and so what? None of them can do useful work so someone needs to make them able to do useful work like industrial humanoid robots do while also having the uncannily lifelike robot appearance. The best of both worlds has not been done and I hope to do it. Others will do it too and I'm surprised none have even attempted it YET but they will shortly.You say "The OP is severely hampered by his Christian belief, because it prevents him from recognizing that the human form is imperfect ("God made Man in his own image", so we must be perfect, too) . That puts major and unnecessary constraints on the scope of his ideas." --- I disagree. I decided its perfect not because the Bible says it is nor because I assumed God intended it to be. I decided its perfect based on the evidence as I studied it. It is my assessment of it based on the merits I saw during my study, not because of my Christian ideologies as you falsely suppose. Also, it is not hampering anything. If anything my ideas need scope limitations and constraints to prevent me from going for even more unrealistic goals than I already have (which cause so many to complain as is). You think I've aimed too low and literally everyone else is saying I aimed too high already. Ironic.You say "I don't want the OP to respond to this post, because we are already going in circles." --- well I disagree. I should respond to anything I deem in need of response. It's actually foolish to not want me to respond to specific points made in your post that are not previously answered and have valid responses readily available. Also I disagree that we've been going in circles.You say "one thing for sure, the OP is NO engineer." --- not by formal definition. But I am doing work engineers do. So informally I am an informal engineer in the eyes of many. In fact a colleague who is a university trained engineer and roboticist called me a very talented and creative engineer. That's a fact.@WobblyYou say that when I claim 100% of the text in this thread posted by me is written by me is evasive. I disagree. Let me clarify then. 100% of the text in this thread is posted by me, a human being typing with human fingers using a human brain to come up with it and no AI is involved in any way in the text production. Good luck finding loopholes in that.You say "It doesn't preclude you being an LLM yourself (perhaps one set up to try to pass the Turing test)." --- I am not an LLM myself typing this and BTW you FAR overestimate LLMs. They cannot come even remotely close to the level of my responses.You say "Kudos on your typing speed though, I've never known anyone to type that fast and make so few mistakes, very impressive." --- LLMs don't type so you just outed yourself by pretending you think I'm an LLM typing this while acknowledging its being typed on a keyboard. Also, I proof read before I submit so that's part of why there's not many mistakes. That and a spell checker on my browser.You say "Doesn't pass the Turing test in my opinion though" --- I'm a man typing at my computer and I don't pass the turing test. Then the test is flawed. I mean what is so robotic about my typing that people think I can't be human. Very odd.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 01:09:15 am
content: Can you invest some of your time into developing your drawing skills. So far all drawings you've posted look ridiculous, as if they were made by a 3 year old. I can't even imagine how one can post such so badly made stuff.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 01:47:36 am
content: @BudYou say "Can you invest some of your time into developing your drawing skills. So far all drawings you've posted look ridiculous, as if they were made by a 3 year old. I can't even imagine how one can post such so badly made stuff." --- I disagree. I think my drawings illustrate my ideas very well and make my plans very clear for all. I am not posting them as polished works of art but only visual notes like on a whiteboard. Your comment is the equivalent of telling a football coach that his x's and o's on a scheme of a play are not up to par because they should be drawn in 3d letters with drop shadows and highlights and worthy of being put in an art museum. It is completely ridiculous and misses the point of the drawings entirely. These are not submitted artworks, they are just plans and visual note taking. The irony here is my drawing skills are probably top 1% in the world when I really try to draw high quality and realism. I showcase some of my college artwork here:

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 06:05:12 am
content: A technical question just occurred to me...A few weeks ago I injured my shoulder a bit, nothing major. But now when I lift a heavy object I can feel it aching, which is my body's way of telling me to take it easy or I'll make it worse.This requires an extremely complex central nervous system.Will your robot (with its webcam eyes and a speaker in its mouth made of plumber's silicone) have a central nervous system? Will it be able to tell you when its motors are overheating or when its finger has fallen off?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 10:07:30 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 04, 2024, 11:52:22 pmMaybe you don't know what coding is. Coding is writing a series of instructions for a computer in order to make that computer function in a particular way. I don't mean to imply it is trivial, and it is very demanding in terms of the required precision and unambiguity. But it isn't where the real work is. There are increasing opportunities to automate parts of it, and there is a growing ecosystem of publicly available code which can be adopted or copied wholesale.The work, as I say, is not in the coding, it's in thedesign. In fact, it is also in the requirements capture (what should it do?). Do not underestimate this - an SOR (statement of requirements) for an autonomous humanoid robot would be a truly vast enterprise. Once that is done, then this vast tome needs to converted into the design specification (which describes exactly how every point in the SOR will be implemented). This is where the vast majority of the work input happens. Converting the resultant design into processor instructions is the coding bit, and the least of your challenges.I reality you will use an iterative process without vast swathes of functions and instructions at any point, but don't be fooled: it's a good system but in the end you still have to put the work in: a machine won't do something until you have instructed it what to do and how to do it.I think your expectations of what AI can contribute is so far from the mark it is fantasy land. HAVING SAID THAT, I truly and genuinely want to be wrong. I want you to succeed and I can't wait to see it coming together and slowly coming to life.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 10:37:18 am
content: I'm not going to post any further on this, but I cannot leave unchallenged your assertion that the human body is "perfect".1/ Using the same hole for breathing and eating is probably the worst mistake. It leads to a clunky design that frequently fails, allowing for the inspiration of food or water, followed quickly by death. All higher land animals suffer this defect to some extent, but it's particularly bad in humans due to us evolving the power of speech.2/ Bad backs. The vertebral column is pretty cool when used horizontally (which is how it evolved), but as soon as we needed to stand up for long periods it came under compression, which it was never required to handle previously, and that's why 60-80% of humans suffer from back pain, and why it is a leading cause of disability. Tell me, does God have a bad back?3/ Back to front wiring of the retina. A very weird mistake, that one.4/ Suction-driven respiration, which means relatively minor and survivable injuries can lead to a collapsed lung and death.5/ Cancer. Unlike viruses and bacteria, cancer is the body killing itself, and it has no value functionally or in any other way. It is a terrible mistake - there is no need for it.6/ Only one heart. It's a single point of failure compared with a distributed system of mini-pumps around the body.7/ Dementia.That's enough, although I could go on and on challenging your silly claim that the human body is perfect and cannot be improved uponChristopher Hitchens once said that the most compelling argument against God is childhood cancer. It's a good point.In closing, I wonder if you are motivated to build this robot because the thought of creating an intelligent being gives you an almost god-like thrill. It definitely would me! Personally I wouldn't waste a moment of time farting about with strings and pulleys, silicone, bones and joints, and other such nonsense. It is ALL in the software and by the time that's ready to go you'll be able to buy a suitable body off-the-shelf, or at least all the bits, better than you can make them. It is ever thus.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 11:17:53 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 04, 2024, 11:52:22 pmPlease can you (learn to use it, if you need to) use the forums QUOTE feature.Having a massive (somewhat almost) wall of text, with @Name, then "to mean quotes", then "..........." as a separator (apparently) inside the text, makes it rather or very, difficult to understand and follow.Also, if you are replying to a few or several people at the same time, making separate, but much shorter posts, when doing that, would probably help as well.Certainly, the many, many pages, inside that one post, replying to many different people in it, was too difficult (at least for me), to want to try and follow.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 11:37:44 am
content: @wobblyYou ask if my robot will have the ability to detect when its motors are overheating or when a finger has fallen off. --- yes. Well I am not sure I'll add temperature sensors on the motors but am considering doing it for motors that in testing prove to be the ones to overheat if any do - in this case I can put a temperature sensor on those and use them as early warning sign tools for the robot to respect. If they near overheating range the robot can take breaks on whatever its doing. Although an alternative to this approach is to simply calculate the amount of current flowing through the motor and for how long it has been flowing that way and estimate the temperature it should be at based on that. The correlation between current flow to temperature can be charted in testing and estimated temperatures can be arrived at that way without the need for temperature sensors.As far as a finger falling off, the robot would immediately be able to tell this visually as he/she will often look at its hands while working for eye hand coordination reasons. It would also know because its joint angle measuring sensors (potentiometers) would detect that the joint angles are not matching the servo rotations and so the joints are dislocated or broken somehow or the muscles have snapped in half or w/e. So it would have immediate feedback of an issue that way.Note that ideally in these scenarios the robot would repair its own broken finger and need not even let me know about the issue. It would keep inventory of parts in the house and go find what it needs to repair itself. Or the 2nd robot can fix the first if that is easiest (since using just one hand to fix your other broken hand is not as easy as having 2 good hands to work on a broken hand).Note: when doing a repair using only one hand, some things would be almost impossible without a second hand assisting. To get around this the robot can use helping hands (everyone on EEV blog knows what helping hands are) or it can use a standalone robot arm with pincher (my mom bought me one of these kits off my amazon wishlist) and that standalone robot arm plus pincher can assist the good working hand to enable it to do tasks that would normally require two hands.@steveYou say "Maybe you don't know what coding is." --- I find this statement to be mean spirited and insincere. I am an accomplished coder with decades of experience in many languages. My YouTube channel is full of coding videos and I'm pretty sure this thread goes into a lot of my coding plans and progress reports so far. I also spent nearly a decade developing AI for videogame botting which was my first introduction to AI. I have started to build my own 3d video game engine from scratch and my own operating system from scratch. I have TONS of hard core coding projects I've done or that I've started and am deep into all on my youtube channel. I also coded professionally on and off over the years. But if you didn't see any of that genuinely, then this still seems far fetched to me. I find it highly unlikely that you genuinely believe someone who has been working toward robotics of the highest level for over a decade would have absolutely zero coding experience whatsoever. Even just tinkering with microcontrollers and briefly starting the AI you'd know very much what coding is and have some decent competency quickly. I'm just not buying this statement by you as being sincere. Anyways I have probably 7k+ hours coding experience in my life so far.You say coding is writing instructions whereas design is the lions share of the work. I don't distinguish the two so much as you have here. That's like saying the design and plan for a research paper or essay is the hard work but typing the paper is the easy part. Well, aside from an optional outline, a design can come together AS YOU TYPE the paper, just kind of flowing naturally in a progression as you type. The same can be true of the code. As I code the design presents itself. Sure there is some planning in advance - like the outline of a paper, but the design really unfolds during the coding. At least that is my approach and experience. I find the two go hand in hand and happen spontaneously together. I consider the designing process to be part of the coding process. I don't hard define the two tasks as two entirely different things like you seem to do here. Actually even my outline is part of the code so I even consider that outline to be coding in and of itself.You say hard work is involved in the requirements capture (what should it do?)." --- I basically already finished most of this on a high level and now am implementing lower and lower levels of implementation of that high level stuff it should do, breaking that down into bite-sized tasks to accomplish the high level goals. I find implementing the high level goals is the lions share of the work.You say "this vast tome needs to converted into the design specification (which describes exactly how every point in the SOR will be implemented)." --- not sure on any of this. Perhaps that's something your job requires or something but I don't do any of that. I just dream it and code it. No documentation other than the code itself being the documentation. Very little is planned before just jumping into the coding phase where the planning coincides with coding as one process.Note: I have made an AI close to 180k lines of code in the past so I know how to make a very complex and advanced AI systems. I have experience in this. You seem to think I have no clue on how to approach a vast AI related coding project but it's not true.You say "I think your expectations of what AI can contribute is so far from the mark it is fantasy land." --- I disagree. The plans I have for the AI are already well underway and going very well. I have had numerous breakthroughs in the field which I think AI researchers will learn from if they were to take the time to follow my work. But my coding videos get hardly any views. That will only change if my AI blows everyone's minds when fully displayed and then at that point people will want to go back and see how it was made. Until then everyone assumes I suck at AI apparently and don't bother to watch the coding videos.You say "HAVING SAID THAT, I truly and genuinely want to be wrong. I want you to succeed and I can't wait to see it coming together and slowly coming to life." --- well suddenly the "hater" shows another side, a gentler and kinder side. A non mean sentence is like a needle in a haystack in this thread so kudos on that. I appreciate it.You say "Using the same hole for breathing and eating is probably the worst mistake. It leads to a clunky design that frequently fails" --- I disagree. Having a multifunctional hole is more efficient. Also, when people are actively chewing, they have to stop talking briefly which can be a nice respite for the listener to a person who talks nonstop. Also, I VERY rarely EVER have had issues with things going down the wrong tube. You just have to be mindful. Even kids figure this out fast. It's not that hard.You say "allowing for the inspiration of food or water, followed quickly by death." --- rarely does death ensue though. In many cases, a little down the wrong tube is inconsequential and coughing solves it. Heimlich maneuver also helps in rare instances where things progress seriously.Your position that just because user error can cause harm to the user then the body is at fault is flawed. By that logic, if I can use my legs to run off a cliff, then I just shouldn't have legs. It's stupid. We just have to use our bodies properly and we're good.You say "Bad backs. The vertebral column is pretty cool when used horizontally (which is how it evolved), but as soon as we needed to stand up for long periods it came under compression, which it was never required to handle previously, and that's why 60-80% of humans suffer from back pain" --- I disagree strongly. First, I reject your inference that we evolved from apes. That's a darwinistic fantasy already proven false a hundred times over. Also, the back pain is not a design issue. Its because people injured themselves doing something improperly and now have a herniated disc or spine out of alignment etc. User error once again. if you keep a strong core and use good form your whole life and stay active rather than overly sedentary and use good lumbar support when you sit, back pain would not be an issue. Back pain is the result of abusing your body and user error. Can't blame the body's design for it.You say "Tell me, does God have a bad back?" --- no, because he uses his back properly and did not screw it up by being dumb or lazy.You say "Back to front wiring of the retina. --- no idea what you are talking about I'll skip. Eyes work amazing and are a marvel so wrong again though.You say "Suction-driven respiration, which means relatively minor and survivable injuries can lead to a collapsed lung." --- exceedingly rare user error. I see a theme. If one can screw it up then the design must be bad, never blame the user for doing something dumb.You say "Cancer. Unlike viruses and bacteria, cancer is the body killing itself" --- well actually cancer is a curse from God for sin in many cases. It is generally caused by demons given permission to slowly kill you because of unforgiveness or sin in your life. It's part of the curses on man for sinning. Not a design flaw but a solution to sin in the form of a punishment. Punishments are a good thing.Cancer is not a default design flaw of a healthy working body. Also it can be related to toxic substances you took in foolishly or because someone else was foolish and poisoned you. These can be factors too in addition to the spiritual ones I mentioned. Neither has to be exclusive.You say "Only one heart. It's a single point of failure compared with a distributed system of mini-pumps around the body." --- not an issue. Works fine. Lasts long. Perfectly okay to have one heart. No need for more. That's not an imperfection. Having multiple hearts would take up valuable real estate and would be an inefficient use of space. You act like the body has plenty of room for more hearts. That's simply not the case. There's no room left. Every bit has already been taken up for something else.You say "Dementia" --- that's not a default design flaw. Its a disease that is most likely a curse that results from sin as well. Sin has consequences. Exo 15:26 He said, "If you will carefully obey the LORD your God, do what is right in his eyes, listen to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, then I won't inflict on you all the diseases that I inflicted on the Egyptians, because I am the LORD your healer." --- this verse proves that many of these diseases you are listing are just punishments is most cases or consequences of people poisoning their neighbor due to greed in some cases etc. NOT design flaws of the human body!You say "That's enough, although I could go on and on challenging your silly claim that the human body is perfect and cannot be improved upon" --- none of the things you said were even close to challenging that the human body is perfect. All were user error in abusing the body one way or another causing consequences. Except the retina one which I have no clue what your issue with the wiring even is. Works great IMO. I can see no issue so your statement on that front doesn't even make sense to me. No clue what you mean even.You say "Christopher Hitchens once said" --- I disagree already. Quoting that fool is already foolish. I completely destroyed his arguments in a video on my channel. He was just a complete buffoon. He's in hell right now. You shouldn't listen to a word he ever said. Blind fool he was. And a total liar and deceiver on top of being a blind fool.You say "the most compelling argument against God is childhood cancer." --- false. There are evil kids for one thing. Second, demons are allowed to attack entire families regardless the age if the parents are evil. Third, kids dying is a punishment for the parents that hits home. Serves as a great punishment for parents as far as the profound impact. David's son with Bathsheba was struck dead to punish David. It hurt bad. Sin has consequences. If you loved your kids you would not sin against God which can cause your kids to be afflicted and killed as a result to punish you. That's sobering. In ZERO sense is that an argument against God. He's not some carebear who refuses to punish anybody. He's HARD CORE at punishing and angry with the wicked every day. God HATES all workers of iniquity. So do I. I agree with God.You say "I wonder if you are motivated to build this robot because the thought of creating an intelligent being gives you an almost god-like thrill." --- not at all. That's blasphemous. It is more like fan art of what God made. A homage to Him. In respect to Him. Done before Him while talking with Him and considering the skill of His own hands all the while. Praising Him for what He accomplished as I make my flimsy and unskilled fan art vaguely similar to the amazing excellence of His work. I'm better able to appreciate what God made by emulating what He made and gaining some vague grasp of just how amazing what He made is as a result by seeing how amazing what He made is the more I study it to emulate it and the more I find I fall short of it. I also don't consider any AI to be an intelligent being AT ALL. It is called ARTIFICIAL intelligence for a reason. It is not real intelligence nor a being at all. It is just my own code emulating an intelligent being and comes across as though it were intelligent despite it not being intelligent whatsoever. And this applies to all AI that ever was, is, or ever will be. So nobody making AI is a God or god or w/e nor even comes close and anyone who thinks they are is a total blind fool egomaniac heading straight for hell.You say "It is ALL in the software" --- I disagree. Software cannot make me a sandwich or clean my room. It is stuck on a computer unless it has a body. Only with a body can it be useful in most of the ways I desire. A realistic human body to put the software into is essential to having that software seem to come to life and be truly useful in the physical world in a multitude of ways.You say "and by the time that's ready to go you'll be able to buy a suitable body off-the-shelf"--- they said this 10 years ago when I started the project. That by THIS year I'd be able to cheaply buy a humanoid robot slave off the shelf and guess what. NOBODY can do this. NONE are within reach today any more than they were then. And this can just as likely be the case 30 years from now. Who knows. I'm NOT banking on that. And even if I COULD buy one off the shelf, I'm sure it would be illegal to modify it or overhaul its software with a custom AI. Better to make my own. Plus as I said, if ALL I AM DOING is making ONE ARM and ONE HEAD and the AI takes over from there and builds the rest of its own body, then I truly did not have to do THAT MUCH on the hardware end after all did I? Surely a single arm and head is not THAT much on hardware side of things. Also, even the robots that are nearing the day we can buy them commercially for our homes, look at them. None of them look human. I want one with a human form factor that passes for being a human. Anything shy of that is a non-starter for me. I INSIST on this for a million reasons. It is WAY better. And not many companies appear to be going for that route so it may NEVER happen in my lifetime if I don't make it happen myself.Also I don't like the idea of sitting back and hoping and waiting I can get a humanoid in my price range that I can hack to put in my own AI. Also if I did not know EVERYTHING about the hardware end there's no way I could take it over with my AI anyways. So I had to learn the whole field of robotics and not just AI to be able to take over a robot I bought one day with my own software top down. And how tragic if I made the insane awesome AI and never could get the humanoid body to put it in! Would be such a shame and waste. Rather just make them both together in tandem.@MK14You say "wqs too difficult (at least for me), to want to try and follow." --- then you are just lazy. Face it. It is easy enough for a 3rd grader to follow with even one OUNCE of mild effort.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 11:44:37 am
content: Here are my 2 cents.I guess no one can deny that it is good reinventing the wheel if someone needs it and cannot get it in any way.Also, it is good doing it for fun or to better understand the wheel.Now, what about producing a human-like robot?As we know, producing real humans is a non-stop process since the far past till the end of time.Therefore, one likely supposes that the main purpose of making a human-like robot is having the ability to control it completely, as it is the case of a well-designed conventional robot.On the other hand, thanks to the advanced technologies in many fields, millions of humans around the world can be driven rather easily to let them believe and do what they are supposed to believe and do, as planned already by some other humans.After all, let us not forget that a real human is also preprogrammed by a set of complex instructions and algorithms (usually called instincts). In other words, a human could be also seen as a living robot whose end of service called death. But there is a very important difference between a man-made robot and a living human.A living human (unlike robots) is also given the freedom to oppose his preprogrammed instructions (that is to oppose his natural instincts, his robotic nature). For example, a human has the freedom to oppose his instinct of survival by loving even his enemies who insist to hurt him badly or kill him. A human has the freedom to also oppose his instinct of justice by not resisting evil in any way, said legal or not. Again, a human has the freedom to oppose his instinct of superiority by being humble towards others while he has the means to defeat them all. But... by doing this (opposing his robotic nature) the material world has no choice but to hate him because he is no more of the world.Anyway, if someone enjoys thinking how to design and produce artificially a human-like robot, it surely helps him knowing better the common and individual instincts by which a real human is preprogrammed. I guess there are, since very long ago, serious scientific studies about it, because without such studies it would be very difficult to drive/control most humans around the world, in every period of time.As behind every great man there is a woman, behind every intelligent robot there is a great maker/programmer.Kerim

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 11:45:24 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 11:37:44 amYou are in a shared forum, with perhaps thousands of different users, around the world. Some users, don't even have English as their first language. So, you should be respectful of the ways, that this forum, works.It might look legible to you, and you may think your posts on here, are worth massive effort, for others to try and decipher and read. But that is not really the case.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 12:09:38 pm
content: @KerimFYou say "I guess no one can deny that it is good reinventing the wheel if someone needs it and cannot get it in any way." --- by this, I assume you are inferring that creating a humanoid robot that looks like and passes for a human and is fluid in motion like a human, has a human form factor, and can do all the activities humans do as good or better than most if not all humans, is reinventing the wheel. By this you infer this has been done. Well it hasn't been done. So it is not reinventing the wheel. It is inventing the wheel for the first time. The wheel has to already be invented for one to reinvent it. In our case, it has not been invented.Now, if by reinvent the wheel you refer to slavery. Then perhaps I am doing that to some degree. What I really want is slaves. Loads of slaves. To enslave humans to do one's bidding is the wheel. To create robots to be your slave is reinventing the slavery wheel. But this slavery 2.0 is ethical 100%. And so it is the ULTIMATE slavery. 100% ethical with all the benefits for the slave owner and no guilty conscience. Sign me up!You say "millions of humans around the world can be driven rather easily to let them believe and do what they are supposed to believe and do, as planned already by some other humans." --- so I assume you refer to social engineering or mass manipulation of the populace or w/e. Perhaps the world's elites are doing this with some selfish aims. Or demon hoards are behind it with the world elites as puppets aiding them. In any case, this macro population control stuff is really outside the scope of a personal slave for your home to do all your chores for you etc. Kind of off topic IMO.@MK14You say "you should be respectful of the ways, that this forum, works." --- not liking to use the quote feature is not being disrespectful IMO as you infer. That's like saying I must click at least 3-4 emojis with every post I make because they are options when filling out the post field and using all available options is necessary to respect how the forum works. This is ridiculous logic.I prefer to restate what the user said briefly or even paraphrase it and then give my response separated by a few hyphens from the paraphrase or direct quote. Quotation marks ARE direct quotes after all. No need for a GIANT blue box that takes up too much room and would make my posts appear even larger than they already do. I don't want all that clutter.You say "you may think your posts on here, are worth massive effort, for others to try and decipher and read. But that is not really the case." --- first, it does not take massive effort. It takes extremely low effort. Second, to the one who sees the value in my ideas and thoughts, that one will be more than happy to read my posts and the very minimal effort doing so requires. To the one who can care less like you, you aren't really the audience because you don't care as you already admitted.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 12:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 12:09:38 pmYou just try to join, in a humble way, the world's masters; by having your own slavesAnd you can sell them to other humans who have no humans to serve them for a lower price.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 12:50:17 pm
content: @KerimFYou say "You just try to join, in a humble way, the world's masters; by having your own slaves" --- even though you added "in a humble way", I don't like the implication that I am trying to join the world's masters. This carries the inference that I'm joining some of the most evil people on earth who orchestrate famines and wars and mass killings all in an effort to spread misery, spread evil, and make money and grow in power. I'm not joining those hellbound sinners. I'm a saint, that obeys God and am merely doing a fun hobby project that may one day give me a friendly helper or two or three or a dozen who will be free employees aka slaves minus any ethical concerns since they are not sentient beings but only machines.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 01:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobotJust like a real person then. I've not lost a finger so far in my life, but I imagine that if it did happen, I would probably be alerted to it by all the screaming and red stuff.You know, honestly it would be a real tragedy if you spent much of your life pursuing this doomed "passion project" of yours instead of spending time with your family and friends and enjoying this wonderful world.Why don't you put your energy into something sane, like building a sailing boat, or developing your already impressive artistic talents*? You obviously have strong willpower, so why not use it to help people (or animals, or the environment for that matter)?Building a feeble automaton out of rubber and pulleys running Windows (great choice of OS by the way) helpsnobodyand will only mark you as a lunatic in your community as it is doing here in this forum.*I mean that by the way, your illustrations are fantastic.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 01:16:41 pm
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 05, 2024, 01:07:41 pmRobot, I'm in the bath, please don't use the camera.Robot, "I'm sorry, but Windows11, updated the terms and conditions, an hour ago, and all footage now belong to Microsoft".Robot, I'm having an extreme medical emergency, and the home has caught on fire, please immediately call the emergency services.Robot, "I would, but Windows11, has decided to perform a very minor update, so you will have to wait a few hours, before I can move again, and respond".

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 01:26:34 pm
content: a good exercise to know how things work and designed, esp what is claimed to be a "naturally evolved" mechanism. doing this you can have a guess how long it will take for arm and legs to develop from say a worm to salamander, i'm just guessing i dont have complete genealogy of mammals evolution. guestimating that alone could take billions or trillions of years of positive outcome by throw and shake in a bowl method... this is going to be a very very long eternal thread even if you manage to persistently work on this. i would love to see motors mechanism of arm and fingers alone i suspect that will be super bulky. let alone other complex mechanism organs like liver, kidney, eyes etc. shake in a bowl all of them altogether and expect the right combination of all those to exist in one single product by chance is a wishful thought. ymmv.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 01:38:39 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 12:50:17 pmI am sorry for giving you the impression that you try to be evil.For instance, I don't see the world's masters being evil. I simply see them robots who succeeded to execute, to a great extent, their instincts of superiority and selfishness (embedded already in their flesh by...). This is why, 2000 years ago, someone (who didn't commit any crime) forgave those who tortured and killed him in the name of their justice 'for they know not what they do' (as in the case of robots).Not in vain I added:"And you can sell them to other humans who have no humans to serve them for a lower price."Perhaps I am wrong, but I noticed that, in many cases, the human's cost is lower than of an intelligent robot!One may say that humans likely trust a robot more than a human servant. But, in reality, trusting a product implies that its maker can be trusted. Unfortunately, the use of even well-known new products as mobiles became risky, it may blow up by the head!So, I can just wish you good luck.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 01:46:00 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 01:47:36 amThe thumbnail of that video link was enough for me not to watch. People who are fascinated with human skulls -I consider them mentally ill.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 02:53:22 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 05, 2024, 01:46:00 pmThat is quite possibly one of the mostderangedthings anyone has said in this entire thread. And that's saying something!The skull is a structure that protects the most delicate organ in a living creature. It is probably the most highly optimised part of a human being for example. The human skull is the very definition of a safety critical component. Billions of years of intense evolution has brought us to have these amazing structures that (generally) give their owners zero problems over their entire lifetimes.Anyone whoisn'tfascinated by such a structure might not fully appreciate what they have. Imagine Neil Armstrong saying "Spacesuits are stupid" while standing on the moon.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 03:07:39 pm
content: that is also a symbol or interest in some cults. so it depends on where you are looking at. btw, less ideal structure of skull that give some problems can also survive, the question is how "nature" tend to choose or got to know what is best? ymmv.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 03:08:19 pm
content: Holy moly, what a thread!

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 03:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 05, 2024, 03:07:39 pmYes, that is one of the lesser known aspects of evolution. Even the least "fit" individuals have a non-zero probability of reproducing to propagate to the next generation. It's all a matter of probability.Genetic algorithms benefit from some level of chaos or entropy. It keeps the gene pool varied and diverse.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 04:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 12:09:38 pmWell, I at least tried.

author: Manul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 10:40:24 pm
content: I know you haven't asked, but I took a peek at your channel. Here's my honest opinion which you might find useful (or not):Coding: better don'tElectronics: not really3D modeling: maybeArtwork: 9/10. If you can really draw like that, please continue, you have bright future.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:01:33 am
content: @wobblyYou say "honestly it would be a real tragedy if you spent much of your life pursuing this doomed "passion project" of yours instead of spending time with your family and friends and enjoying this wonderful world." --- I agree. I maintain a healthy life balance of work, family/friends, and hobbies. So there is no risk of what you say here. If anything, in spurts, when very motivated, I dip into my tv watching time in evenings to go hard on the robot. So all that is lost is solo time watching tv. Not a big loss.You say "Why don't you put your energy into something sane, like building a sailing boat, or developing your already impressive artistic talents*?" --- I do put my energies into sane stuff often. Car flipping, house remodeling, gardening, orchard, vineyard, building various unrelated machines, building products and inventions, etc. But none are as cool or impressive as building a robot IMO. So I make time for the robot plus other stuff too. Also, I'm not sure what is the upside to developing my already impressive artistic talents. I am using those talents to make the robot look real. But to make loads of pictures seems wasteful with it. Nobody really cares and the pictures can't talk to you or make you a sandwhich like a moving talking robot can. Better to put my art skills into that instead.You say "You obviously have strong willpower, so why not use it to help people (or animals, or the environment for that matter)?" --- I do that too. Massively. But the Bible says to keep that quiet so that your Father who sees what you do in secret can reward you. If you boast in your good works before man, you don't get rewarded for them. Also, my robot project can help people by inspiring them, educating them, and growing the field in general. For example, humanoidable.com is a great humanoid robotics website that is barely getting traffic. It's tragic. I want to grow the field of robotics with my exciting projects. And that field then, if grown, can help MANY people with disabilities or seniors etc.You say "Building a feeble automaton out of rubber and pulleys running Windows (great choice of OS by the way) helps nobody and will only mark you as a lunatic in your community as it is doing here in this forum." --- I disagree for the reasons stated above. Also, in general, if people see you achieve the impossible and never give up, that can encourage them to go after their own dreams and that can be a great thing to pass on. Also, people really respect the robot idea in person. I never had people react negatively in real life when I talk about it. They seem just really to believe I can do it in real life. Or think its a good educational hobby. No hate was ever gotten IRL.@MK14You say "Robot, I'm in the bath, please don't use the camera." --- I don't think the robot will betray me by sending images of myself unrobed to strangers. And I'm hoping hackers won't tap into the camera system man that'd suck.You say "Robot, "I would, but Windows11, has decided to perform a very minor update, so you will have to wait a few hours, before I can move again, and respond". --- I disable updates so that won't be an issue. Also I plan to only use windows 7.@MechatrommerYou say "i would love to see motors mechanism of arm and fingers alone i suspect that will be super bulky." --- it really is super bulky. Which is why I had to spread them out throughout the forearm, upper arm, and even into the sides and back of the robots torso just to fit it all. Like I literally have some finger actuation motors mounted onto the sides of the spine since there were too many motors to even fit them all in the arm.@KerimFYou say "I don't see the world's masters being evil. I simply see them robots who succeeded to execute, to a great extent, their instincts of superiority and selfishness (embedded already in their flesh by...)" --- Seeking to establish superiority and selfishness with regards to ones neighbors is evil though. We should all strive to be humble and self-less. Kind and generous. Anything else is evil. That simple.You say "This is why, 2000 years ago, someone (who didn't commit any crime) forgave those who tortured and killed him in the name of their justice 'for they know not what they do' (as in the case of robots)." --- not really the same thing. The killers in this case literally thought they were doing the right thing, not knowing who that man really was. So in some way they were innocent in the matter by way of lack of knowing.You say "Not in vain I added: "And you can sell them to other humans who have no humans to serve them for a lower price."" --- yeah but that's really not something I'd do personally. Too many liabilities. And I want them for myself. I can use them to assist me in helping the poor. But I'd not GIVE THEM to the poor. The poor could misuse them and become corrupt somehow. Like you shouldn't give a loaded gun to a child.You say "Perhaps I am wrong, but I noticed that, in many cases, the human's cost is lower than of an intelligent robot!" --- disagree. People cost $60k/yr to get a hard working man to help you 6 days a week 8 hours a day. Robots will help you 24/7 and can be used for decades for a cost like $300k so they are cheaper in the long run than human help. And that is a high end price. Some may be cheaper not sure. They aren't really for sale yet usually.You say "One may say that humans likely trust a robot more than a human servant. But, in reality, trusting a product implies that its maker can be trusted. Unfortunately, the use of even well-known new products as mobiles became risky, it may blow up by the head!" --- a robot maker has much to lose and so would likely have high quality product. I'd trust the product. They had to be very smart and organized to make it. So they probably did a good job. I highly doubt it would blow up.@BudYou say "The thumbnail of that video link was enough for me not to watch. People who are fascinated with human skulls -I consider them mentally ill." --- That was the only skull related artwork I think. Oh wait there was another one too. NM. I don't generally consider myself fascinated by skulls or skeletons. They have a lot of symbolic meaning for artwork purposes though. My mom and wife are both therapists and both consider me very mentally healthy. I'm sure I'd know if I was mentally ill while in regular contact with mental health professionals. I'm not.@WobblyYou say "Billions of years of intense evolution has brought us to have.... " --- that's a lie. The earth is 6k years old roughly. This is proven over and over. Stop believing in evolution fairy tales and read and obey the Bible. Thank God for designing the skull well.@ManulYou say "Coding: better don't" --- I disagree. I am a highly accomplished coder and can seemingly code anything I put my mind to. Nothing is too hard for me. I have a natural affinity for it. I excell at it. I also really enjoy it quite a lot.You say "Electronics: not really" --- I'm still fairly new to it but have come a long way to understanding alot of the basics and most everything I need to do the electronics tasks I want to do. I also have innovated in this field significantly new techniques, methods, and even styles of construction. I'm a valuable asset to this field. So I disagree with your assessment.You say "3D modeling: maybe" --- I get the job done for my CAD and it helps me alot. I also am quite skilled as a 3d artist. There's no maybe about it.You say "Artwork: 9/10. If you can really draw like that, please continue, you have bright future." --- I am not sure it is worth my time to pursue. Ever heard the term starving artist? Rather use my art talent to make robots and other functional and utilitarian stuff, not just something that sits on a wall ignored.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:32:04 am
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 05, 2024, 02:53:22 pmReally? You obviously didn't readhis post above where he blamed childhood cancer on the family.Some quotes:Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 11:37:44 amQuoteAs someone who has lost more than one family member to this disease I say this to you, "Artybyrobot",Fuck you!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 05:02:54 am
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 05, 2024, 02:53:22 pmI knew there is going to be more than one ill people in this tread.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 05:29:51 am
content: I think possibly wobbly didn't see the context and commented on a biological perspective only, i.e. not seeing the wood for the trees.I hope most right-thinking people always have best wishes for any family going through difficulty, but the OP is (to put it extremely mildly) unstable it seems, or is still maturing, and it's not possible to have a normal discussion without him interjecting and now blaming such things on sin. If it were up to me, I would wish he was banned.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 05:43:52 am
content: @shabazYou say "I hope most right-thinking people always have best wishes for any family going through difficulty" --- You assume that because I acknowledge God sends diseases as a result of sin to families that this means I don't have best wishes for said families. That's a lie. So here you bear false witness against me proving yourself to be a wicked person. No follower of God has anything but best wishes for all men. I wish all men to obey God and be blessed. And when I see someone being punished for sinning, it is sad to me.Another key issue you and that girl chose to completely ignore is that I clearly stated that in some cases, cancer or disease can be caused by someone poisoning another person as opposed to just a flat out judgement from God. So I already said sin is not always necessarily the only cause. I laid out some different potential causes. But you are not arguing in good faith and neither is that girl who came on here with her filthy mouth. You just hate God apparently. The Bible says diseases are sent by God for sin. I think God is perfect and righteous and so any punishment He sends is for good cause and done with motivation to bring correction and improve people's lives in the long term. When your dad spanks you, he does it because he wants you to learn to obey. He loves and cares about you and wants to teach you right from wrong. Nothing can be further from "failing to have best wishes for any family". Punishing a family for sinning is something that can be done with best wishes as the motivation.You say "the OP is (to put it extremely mildly) unstable it seems, or is still maturing, and it's not possible to have a normal discussion without him interjecting and now blaming such things on sin." --- first of all, this is a thread on a robotics project from a technical perspective. Other forum members brought up cancer in children as proof God does not exist. I laid out some viable reasons why this type of thing happens based on the Bible and based on testimonies I have heard during my theological studies. I presented facts. Then I got attacked unfairly by some lady when I did not send cancer to anybody and don't even know her. She was completely out of line. And now you attack me and call me unstable and immature. More false accusations from you. God HATES a false witness.You say "If it were up to me, I would wish he was banned." --- once more you show how much you hate God and hate people who defend the Bible and God's actions as punishments for sin. You blame ME for God punishing sins. I am not God sir. You want to shoot the messenger and it is pathetic. Just man up and say yes, I can understand that if there is a God, he may want to punish sins and that is fine by me. God can do so. I trust he's smarter than me and has genius strategies behind what he allows to happen or orders to come to pass or whatever. If someone believes in God and thinks God makes no mistakes, good for them. They would not be the first. Clearly Artbyrobot is a stand up guy and trying to address comments coming his way while also trying to stay on topic of robotics and technology despite people bringing off topic stuff up alot. He is doing his best. He should not be banned but anyone who is a sinner should be silent and stop being a sinner. I am so glad Artbyrobot trusts God and is so nice to all of us sinners despite us being God's enemies. He really does obey the Bible. What a great asset Artbyrobot is to this forum. He also even tries to stay on topic despite people derailing it into religion. Despite being religious and enjoying discussing God's justice, Artbyrobot keeps it short and sweet, defends God well, and steers discussion back to the robotics project.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 06:24:35 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 04:39:24 amWhilst you can believe in whatever you like, I'd suggest that most people on this forum aren't religious, nor does the word of some book apply to everyone. Let's keep things civil and not weaponise religion to make some kind of a point.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 06:36:13 am
content: @halcyonYou say "Whilst you can believe in whatever you like, I'd suggest that most people on this forum aren't religious, nor does the word of some book apply to everyone." --- Let me correct you on this. I, Halcyon, don't subscribe to any particular religion at this time in my life because I suppress the truth in unrighteousness as a God hater. However, I acknowledge that if the Bible is God's Word, which I currently deny in my life, then it 100% applies to everyone because if the Bible is legit, it literally addresses everyone constantly and is basically a letter from God to all mankind to read and obey. So my claim that it doesn't apply to everyone was made in bad faith and I apologize. It does apply to everyone but I choose to ignore it because I hate God right now and I realize this is wicked of me but currently can't be bothered to repent.You say " Let's keep things civil and not weaponise religion to make some kind of a point." --- Let me correct you again. I, Halcyon, acknowledge that Artbyrobot has been keeping things civil despite some God haters claiming God doens't exist and challenging the existence of God with some controversial question relating to cancer in children. Artbyrobot, I see you gave the correct answer from a Biblical perspective and I respect it. I also acknowledge that girl was foul mouthed and personally attacked you for zero reason, somehow deluding herself into blaming YOU for her family getting cancer when you did not send cancer to them and merely pointed out that sin can cause God to punish people and according to the Bible, disease is one possible punishment God sends. I respect that you pointed this out to address the Christopher Hitchens atheism argument against God's existence. it is accurate according to the Bible and from that worldview, is a definite possibility to consider when you find disease in people - are they being punished by God. This is a logical conclusion. I also acknowledge that Artbyrobot did not do anything uncivil and did not even bring up cancer. So putting any blame on the sensitivity of the topic of cancer has to be placed squarely on the shoulders of Christopher Hitchens first and the man quoting Hitchens in this thread second. Artbyrobot has the right to address a challenge to his religion and did so very respectfully and matter of factly and did not personally attack anybody other than rebuking people for cussing and lying. Which is righteous to do of course. He was very civil in this. He did NOT weaponize religion and my bringing up such a claim is clearly done in bad faith and I apologize for that. Artbyrobot, I see you just stand on the Bible and I respect it. You did prove that it teaches God sends diseases as punishment for disobedience. So people getting diseases may be getting punished by God for their sins. Thanks for being so helpful and giving us food for thought and thanks for caring about sinners enough to share scripture with them even though they don't like to hear it.Oh yeah, and I, Halcyon, am sorry for adding to the increasing number of posts that are not on the topic of robotics which I acknowledge is disrespectful to the OP and to this forum which is supposed to be on projects, designs, and technical stuff. I acknowledge that Artbyrobot is staying on topic while I and other posters are not doing so. We will try to get back onto the topic of your project when posting in your thread.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 06:59:18 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 06:36:13 amThat would be nice. It's a long weekend where I am, and I'd rather not be spending my time moderating some silly back and forth between users. Let's keep things on-topic from here on in.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:05:21 am
content: Does this robot have a name? Perhaps you mentioned it before and I missed it.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:09:11 am
content: @wobblyYou ask "Does this robot have a name? Perhaps you mentioned it before and I missed it." --- yes, its name is Abel. I initially set out to build a robot named Adam and built many fiberglass bones by hand for Adam. But one day I decided to just use a PVC medical skeleton as a shortcut to save time. I did not want to throw away all my hard work on Adam so decided that the PVC medical skeleton based robot would be a entirely new robot project named Abel. The fiberglass bones I already made for Adam will be finished up by Abel when Abel finishes building Adam for me. Abel and Adam will most likely make Eve as the next robot in line. Cain I don't plan to make because he was too wicked to make a robot named after him IMO.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 09:26:23 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 04:01:33 amLet's say your robot is rapidly walking, within a home, and some completely unexpected event, such as a massive, very big and heavy dog, suddenly decides to run and jump (at the worst possible moment), crashing into the Robot, and sending it badly off-balance.If the Robot does nothing, it will violently fall to the ground, possibly hurting the dog (who has just made an innocent mistake), other people, very nearby in the same room, damaging useful/valuable objects during the fall, and possibly damaging the Robot as well, during the impact.Therefore, the Robot, has to handle this sudden and unexpected incident, very rapidly, (the exact time scales are debatable), but literally milliseconds may make the difference, between being able to stay on its (the Robot) feet and avoiding worsening the accident, or it being too late (as regards the laws of Physics), and the big Robot, tumbling down to the ground.Therefore, some or all of the Robots systems, would need to be proper real-time software (and associated operating systems, as required/designed).Windows 7, may NOT listen to your application(s), for a period of time (e.g. hundreds of milliseconds, but off-hand, I'm not sure of the exact delays), because it has decided to write to a disk, or access the network, or perform garbage collection, etc.Also, Windows 7, is getting increasingly dated. More and more things, no longer support windows 7, drivers for the latest parts may no longer support it, and it is getting less and less secure, when the internet is accessed.But if the overall system, is properly designed, it may be able to handle stuff like the potential accident, I just described, without relying on the Windows 7 part of the system.I.e. I can't definitively say, that you CAN'T use Windows 7. As it would still be possible.Just harder, and it could exceed the development experience and skills, of whoever ends up developing this, e.g. a team of programmers.But there are operating systems (or even none at all, as such, just do it as an embedded software development), which would be much better suited, for Robot developments, and wouldn't have these issues.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 09:36:44 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 06:36:13 amThis bot seems to have gotten itself a bit confused, writing in 3rd person and now thinks it is Halcyon

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 09:49:51 am
content: @MK14You say "Windows 7, may NOT listen to your application(s), for a period of time (e.g. hundreds of milliseconds, but off-hand, I'm not sure of the exact delays), because it has decided to write to a disk, or access the network, or perform garbage collection, etc." --- I disagree. You can set your application's priority status within windows 7 with a couple lines of code so that it takes precedence over everything else. So as long as you set the priority status high enough, delays would never exceed a sufficiently negligible amount to make the program for all practical extents and purposes a real time operating program.You say "Also, Windows 7, is getting increasingly dated. More and more things, no longer support windows 7, drivers for the latest parts may no longer support it" --- it works for the latest hardware last I checked. At least consumer grade gaming pc level hardware.You say "and it is getting less and less secure, when the internet is accessed" --- I am not an expert on that but have no concerns there. I haven't had any issues ever in that area and just hope I stay under the radar on that front forever. I think hackers attack their enemies or banks or w/e. I should be fine if I continue to treat everyone with respect.You say "But if the overall system, is properly designed, it may be able to handle stuff like the potential accident, I just described, without relying on the Windows 7 part of the system." --- No it wouldn't. The Windows 7 part of the system would be heavily relied on for most of all the situation you described. It would determine the correct course of action based on its options and morals/values system (which would be based on the Bible) and it would execute accordingly sending out movement commands to the microcontrollers who would then forward that to the motor control circuitry.You say "I.e. I can't definitively say, that you CAN'T use Windows 7. As it would still be possible. Just harder, and it could exceed the development experience and skills, of whoever ends up developing this, e.g. a team of programmers." --- no just myself and the robot's AI itself helping me develop itself. No other humans helping. ALTHOUGH I will say that my AI will interact with 3rd party AI for assistance or to ask it questions so that my AI will not be isolated or solely depending on myself for guidance. And it will read online and books and w/e to learn too. And watch youtube to learn. But the coding itself will just be the two of us. Although its research is in a way coding it esoterically speaking. In the same way watching kids cartoons codes your kids in a way.You say "But there are operating systems (or even none at all, as such, just do it as an embedded software development), which would be much better suited, for Robot developments, and wouldn't have these issues." --- they might not have the same issues but would bring their own issues. Many more issues in fact than just staying with windows 7 where I'm comfy already as a coder.@naliYou say "This bot seems to have gotten itself a bit confused, writing in 3rd person and now thinks it is Halcyon" --- I disagree. First, the person writing all posts under the user account Artbyrobot is a human as has already been thoroughly discussed in this thread repeatedly. Second, there is no confusion involved. I am merely typing out the appropriate response for forum users to have posted were they to have posted a well written and very logical, kind, and honest response in my view. To the degree to which they responded differently than my proposed response for them, they would have responded unsatisfactorily in my view. By doing this, I'm giving food for thought for posters as to a better suggested response for them to use in the future.I guess I came up with this idea from working with chat gpt alot. I say things like chat gpt, I want to tell my wife she's fat without hurting her feelings. How can I phrase this in a tactful way? And it would give me a super sensitive and loving way to tell her my concerns that would not be offensive. I'm kind of giving that same guidance to posters here in my thread. I think it is a cool way to help people see how they can improve their interpersonal communications in the future. It is good food for thought. it is like "this is what I would do if I were you".

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:06:56 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 09:49:51 amThanks.I'm reasonably happy with your responses, to my questions/post.I still think you would be better off, using proper real-time embedded operating system(s).

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:08:36 am
content: @MK14You say "I still think you would be better off, using proper real-time embedded operating system(s)." --- there could be some advantages there perhaps, but they would not outweigh the disadvantages IMO.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:12:36 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 09:49:51 amNo, I'm sorry, but you should NOT be doing that.What the original poster said, is what they said. You can't rewrite it to your liking.Accuracy and traceability, can be very important in engineering.If you rewrite what they said, any misunderstandings that you may have had, will tend to be put into your 'quote' of what they said.If someone said, use a "2N3904" transistor, you can't (or shouldn't) rewrite that to say they said, "Use a MOSFET". Because it is NOT what they said, and could be technically, flawed and wrong on many levels.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:14:45 am
content: Windows isn't an RTOS. It cannot be relied upon to behave deterministically in the time domain as MK16 mentioned.Simply setting the process priority to the maximum will not make it suddenly deterministic. Doing that can have many side effects that adversely affect performance.Don't forget also that process priority is only a "suggestion" to the Windows kernel. The kernel is free to ignore the developer's chosen priority at any time if it keeps the OS stable.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:21:01 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 10:08:36 amIt is true, that the tools and software, which you have become very familiar with, over the years. Seem to be the best and most efficient ones, to use for stuff.But, for real-time embedded systems, other operating system choices, are usually better. Otherwise it can end up harming (worsening) the item, in various ways.I.e. It is best to use a proper, designed for real-time use, operating system.But, choosing the best one, can be a complicated process, as there are many pros and cons.As the Robot gets more and more complicated, the strain and loading on the operating system(s), can increase dramatically. Proper real-time embedded operating systems, would have the capabilities and facilities, to cope with these difficulties, but Windows 7 may well be lacking, in various ways.It is a complicated subject area, perhaps a book(s) on such things would help you?, but I suppose internet articles and YouTube videos, would help as well.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:33:12 am
content: @MK14You say "No, I'm sorry, but you should NOT be doing that." --- I disagree. It sets an example for them of the highest quality to set the bar high and bring self reflection.You say "What the original poster said, is what they said. You can't rewrite it to your liking." --- I disagree. Rewriting what they said in a better way sets a example. We do this to bring correction to our children often. For example, lets say I see my kid hit my other kid and say give me back my toy! My wife will say "no, don't hit. And don't use that tone. Instead, say "can I please have back my toy, I was using that and would be happy to share it with you later when I'm done with it". This doesn't replace their original response. It suggests a better one. And comparing the original response with the suggested one can show the glaring issues with the original and this is educational and convicting if the original was sinful.You say "If you rewrite what they said, any misunderstandings that you may have had, will tend to be put into your 'quote' of what they said." --- it isn't being represented as a quote. It is being framed as a suggestion for a better response, not framed as a quote. In other words, it seems you are inferring that I'm deliberately misquoting people to cause confusion. That is completely false. I'm explicitly bringing a suggested improvement on how they aught to have spoken IMO.You say "you can't (or shouldn't) rewrite that to say they said..." --- I did not rewrite what anybody wrote to say they said something else. I am not misrepresenting what they said, I am suggesting what they AUGHT to have said. HUGE difference. I acknowledge what they did say, word for word quoting what they said with no changes, and then I write a suggested better version and I make it clear it is my suggested improvement and not what they said in actuality.You say "As the Robot gets more and more complicated, the strain and loading on the operating system(s), can increase dramatically" --- I agree, however, tackling this strain effectively within windows 7 can be done by using FPGA as a intermediary for streaming video processing and simplification before it hits your windows pc, or offloading certain processing tasks to a separate machine that works as a partner, or making your code more efficient, or running multiple threads as needed so that different processor cores handle different tasks and the load is more spread out, or using the videocard to offload heavy processing using openCL. With enough tactics like this, implemented as needed, one can play nice with windows so that windows doesn't feel the need to interrupt critical processes that are time sensitive. Also, simply upgrading your processor and videocard and ram and SSD as new tech comes out can be a way to compensate for the growing complicated coding. Better hardware better accommodates increasingly resource intensive software.@wobblyYou say "Windows isn't an RTOS. It cannot be relied upon to behave deterministically in the time domain as MK16 mentioned." --- It can be relied on plenty. In the event the operating system was so interrupted by your resource hungry application set to max priority status that it HAD to come up for air and pause your program, this would first indicate your program is not taking sufficient breaks in between resource hogging runs and so is not well programmed. As long as your program is playing nice and taking breaks to let the operating system breath, then the operating system should not EVER feel the need to interrupt your program in the times your program takes the wheel and insists on zero interruptions. Further, these zero interruption total takeovers should be relatively quickly over with and the baton passed back to the operating system as your program takes a short respite. That respite can be defined and kept very short as well. So with even a tiny amount of care, windows can be 100% relied upon for real time applications like this. Only noobs would struggle.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:43:01 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 10:08:36 amUnder windows (and vanilla Linux to be fair) user-land applications are so far removed from the actual hardware that it would be a constant uphill struggle to gain low-latency access to bare-metal peripherals. Also, Windows has very limited support for external interrupts - and what support it does have typically requires special hardware (PCIe cards etc) and drivers. And still it would be impossible to service the interrupts in a deterministic manner. Making an ambulatory humanoid robot would require extremely complex PID algorithms (or similar) that would take up a lot of CPU cycles. It would be a nightmare.Building a biblical robot is such a niche application that I think it's unlikely that there is any particular real-time operating system (RTOS) that would be ideal.You'd be better off writing the firmware from scratch - this way you can guarantee time-deterministic performance from the outset.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:46:42 am
content: @wobblyI don't like interrupts. My main loop on windows 7 would query the microcontrollers for updates to what is going on and query the video cameras for what is going on visually on its own time. And this would be done on various different threads as the program won't be in a single thread.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 10:57:22 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 10:33:12 amNo, it really cannot I'm afraid - not at the timescales and processing rates that your robot will need to maintain all the time.I'll give an example. Last year I built an inverted pendulum balancing "robot" (if I can call it that). That's a system with only 2 degrees of freedom (not dozens like a humanoid). It required highly accurate and consistent interrupt handling right down at the level of microseconds. Windows isn't able to do that even in the region of 10 milliseconds reliably 100% of the time. It's not designed for that.Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 10:33:12 amI'm glad you're ready for this eventuality.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:01:20 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 10:46:42 amInterrupts exist so you don't have to poll things - that's the whole point of them.You're just making this so much harder than it needs to be. Why throw obstacles in your own path?

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:07:57 am
content: @wobblyI don't believe it needs very frequent information about the body. consider driving a car. You can look away from the road to look at a passenger or at your phone sometimes and as long as you keep glancing back at the road on a swivel, you are good. Same with walking. You can briefly look away from where you are going to look at a pretty girl walking by without crashing or falling. In the event you detect you ARE crashing - like the big dog jumping onto you, yes, as soon as that is realized, you need some intense processing time to make a ton of decisions very fast and execute quickly on a plan. But along with that plan is a series of predictions and a full animation of the entire planned falling sequence. windows is not needed after that as the whole falling sequence is sent out to be carried out so the windows system can have a break as the sequence is carried out and broken down by the microcontrollers. So windows isn't being pulled or interrupted or relied upon during that timeframe anymore except maybe say 2-3 times to just make sure everything is going to plan still. I am convinced windows would allow this burst concentrated processing as long as you then run a Sleep(1) command to let windows do its clock updates and whatever background processes it needs to do while your main loop on windows is trusting its minions to do what they were told when they were last in contact. So there is low level workers in my plans that take pressure off the main loop on windows to be as consistently involved. Sort of like muscle memory does a good amount of the work passively without your active mind needing to think about your step taking as you walk. But when falling down, your active mind needs to make a plan and get involved.You say "Interrupts exist so you don't have to poll things" --- they are bad. They should NEVER have been invented. They interrupt the flow of your loop. You loop should not ever be interrupted. It is designed to run uninterrupted. An interrupt at the wrong time can introduce unplanned for errors that only appear if that interrupt happened at just the right time to interrupt at just the wrong time leaving some process or variable untended and in a state unplanned for and this can cause intermittent bugs that cannot be reproduced and may even be mystery bugs because they only occur if the interrupt happened at a certain point in time. I would suggest you stop using interrupts if you want to be a better coder. Polling is NOT burdensome or something to be avoided. Not sure where you got that idea.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:27:46 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 11:07:57 amI think most people around here would completely disagree with all of that. Please correct me, people, if I'm wrong.The main loop of an embedded system that uses Interrupts (sometimes many different types) needs to be written in such a way that Interrupts are not disruptive. This is a well understood practice and widely adopted. Once achieved, this allowsveryrapid response to external (or internal) stimulus. It also means that polling is not needed - this saves valuable time in the main loop because polling is waiting for something to happen. Repeatedly askingis it ready... no...is it ready... no...is it ready... yes...is wasteful of time and CPU resources.Polling absolutely is burdensome, and should be avoided in time-critical systems such as the one you are contemplating.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:39:04 am
content: @wobblyYou say "polling is waiting for something to happen. Repeatedly asking is it ready... no...is it ready" --- actually, you'd say is it ready and if the answer is no, you proceed to move on to other tasks in your main loop and only come back to poll again after doing other stuff while you wait. You are referring to blocking and I'm referring to non-blocking. I am against blocking. If anything were blocking, I'd open a dedicated thread for that and let the main while loop be on a new thread or process.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:39:55 am
content: Furthermore there are some things that cannot easily be polled. Take a relative position rotary encoder for instance.It is common for such devices to output a pair of quadrature signals (square waves). You CAN poll this kind of device, but you'd have to be perfectly sure that you are able to detect all the edges that occur on those square waves.In normal operation only one of the two square waves changes at a time. If your main loop misses an edge on one of them then the next time you poll the encoder, it will look like BOTH square waves have changed at the same time - this means you don't know which direction the shaft turned!With interrupts set up to handle both square waves, you'll never miss an edge and you haven't wasted any time polling.Fair point about "blocking" though, but even doing a single polling operation is a blocking operation, even if you do other things in between. Doing other things in between simply reduces your sampling resolution and that has its own problems.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:43:02 am
content: @wobblyYou just betrayed a huge misunderstanding of my system plans. You think my windows 7 main loop will be polling a rotary encoder. That is too low level for a windows 7 main pc. That is the work of a microcontroller. Microcontrollers interface with all sensors and aggregate findings and report to the main windows 7 pc their findings via usb.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:44:41 am
content: Robot update:Ok so my solution to the issue I had of fishing line breaking when tested by hanging a 10lb dumbbell is finally here folks.The solution is to sew a fishing hook's eye into the bone sleeve snugly with upholstery thread as a anchor point. Then I will draw my braided PE fishing line through this eye and back down. Instead of tying it off with a fancy knot which acts as a weak point or concentrated stress point, I will use a fishing crimp sleeve to crimp the rope off on itself. Similar to crimping two pieces of wire to eachother with a electrical crimp tube. Supposedly fishing crimp sleeves are used to avoid knot tying and offer even more integrity than a knot can while maintaining fishing line integrity more than a knot can. No weakness is introduced to the line like knots do. A side benefit is this crimp also protects the line from abrasion and acts as a physical standoff so the line isn't rubbing the bone sleeve as much which can cause micro abrasions and weaken it over time. I bought #2 and #3 fishing crimp sleeves which were around $6/100pcs on amazon.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:47:17 am
content: OK fine I give up, someone give me a bible. I just want the world to make sense again.****ing hell.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:49:28 am
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 06, 2024, 11:47:17 amWell I suggest going fishing - have the OP send you all the unused fishing line and hooks you will need!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:58:21 am
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 06, 2024, 11:27:46 amThere are a lot of different ways, of designing and building, complicated real-time embedded systems.Although interrupts can be very tempting, and useful. Things can also, be done, in a way, which minimizes their use.(As I suspect you already know), interrupts are a mixed blessing. A bit like junctions, on motorways (Freeways). As useful as they are, they can also cause major headaches (bugs and other problems), such as the somewhat random timing delays they add to the system (jitter), and they can make it much harder to quickly test systems out.E.g. Two specific interrupts, if they occur simultaneously, may crash the system. But such an issue, may only occur, once a week (if you are lucky/unlucky). Making testing harder, and reproducing such a problem, tricky.Yes, their system could be designed to use a large number of interrupts. But that would NOT be the only way, of solving the issues needed to create their Robot system.EDIT: Accidentally put wrong quote in, corrected it now.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:02:58 pm
content: @MK14your post appears to have come too close to taking Artbyrobot's side on this matter and so it has been flagged as suspicious. It is common knowledge on this forum and thread that all posts written by Artbyrobot are stupid and ill-informed and so any attempt to pretend to agree with Artbyrobot will be treated with strong prejudice and scorn.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:03:03 pm
content: @MK14, I completely agree. Horses for courses as they say.I was simply staggered at the OP's remark " are bad. They should NEVER have been invented".

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:05:40 pm
content: @wobblyYou say "I was simply staggered at the OP's remark " are bad. They should NEVER have been invented"." --- well when you are talking or thinking deeply on something important, I'm sure you don't like to be interrupted. I suggest you treat your main while loop with the same respect and wait till it is giving some issue eye contact before speaking to it rather than interrupting what it is doing which is very disruptive and unpleasant. Main while loops deserve more respect.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:06:49 pm
content: I still don't think you are aware of the sheer difficulty of your project no matter how forcefully you write or try to "correct" people here who are educated in engineering far beyond your level. As I tell my friends when they try to gaslight me "Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me" and yours aren't working on me either. And I don't want to discourage anyone from doing anything that they enjoy. However lets proceed ...So going back in the thread I took a screen shot of the arm of your design, in which you try to mimic the bones of the human anatomy. But of course you can't make a simulated human "muscle" So you have fishing line pulleys for tendons and motors for muscles. You think this will be able to duplicate the human arm functionality. I also have shown you that this can be done already without using a reconstruction of human bones and the unneeded complexity of all that biological baggage. It isn't needed.So here's what I want to see from you. Forget all the other things like these -The rest of the robot bodyAI / Brain / thinkingSightHearingTouchand anything else besides the raw mechanical arm with all that you think it needs to operate like a real arm.Build the arm and mount it on a test table that can hold it so it can move as it should. If that includes a few more motors and pulleys at the "shoulder" then build them. What you are going to do is write a program to do the following:Set up a coffee cup full of waterSet up three other empty glassesWrite the following test program -Program the arm with hand to pick up the coffee cup by the handleHave it move to each empty container and pour out 1/3 of the liquid into each oneBring the coffee cup back to the original position, while the hand turns the coffee cup upside down as it is moving (I can do this with one hand) and set it down on the table.You will not use any AI or sight system but simply hard-code all the movements as a test trial of the mechanical baseline capability - can the arm do what I program it to do, or is the whole mess an unstable design that will not be acceptable for a robot?You will do this by trial and error and making measurements of the distances and twists and turns the arm and fingers must make to complete the task, and using those as pre-determined data points in the program. Do you implement feedback in any form so you know that a certain part has actually moved? If so use it. Remember this is a test of the arm's function - not of anything at any higher level in the system as a whole.I'll check back in, say, ten years and see how you are doing. My prediction however, is that you will not be able to get the arm to do this task because you will soon find the control issues will be to complex for you to handle and that the design (using human bone structure etc.) is too unstable for it to work. Only then will the sheer complexity of your task hit you really hard. But I hope you will have had fun trying and you will have learned a lot.Now I'll start your next post for you because I am truly a learning system myself -"I disagree ..."

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on October 06, 2024, 12:06:49 pmOne possibility, that comes to mind. At least for people, who are NOT the OP.Is that technical people, tend to have a raised possibility of being, at least a little bit, autistic in various ways e.g. ADHD.Which can affect that persons, ability, to properly access/perceive, the flow of time, how long complicated technical projects will take, and other practicalities, of massive projects, like the one in this thread (Robot).But possible lack of (relevant) experience, can also worsen the accuracy, of peoples estimates on how long and how complicated, something will need to be.The story goes (but it was probably true, but I might be remembering it partly wrong), a company decided tocheap outuse a very recent graduate, to create their software.The boss was delighted, when, 1 week into the software task (which MUST be completed, and ready, within 4 weeks of the original start date), the recent graduate, reckoned they had completed 90% of the software.The remaining '10%' of the software, only took 11 more weeks to complete.It is NOT easy, even for hardened and highly experienced experts, to accurately estimate how long some technical things, are going to take to complete.IIRC, new software has a terrible reputation for being late. Compared to most other industries and things (Projects).

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:45:21 pm
content: @xrunnerYou say "I still don't think you are aware of the sheer difficulty of your project" --- I disagree. In fact, I chose it precisely because it was so difficult and anything less difficult would be lame by comparison. It is precisely the staggering difficulty that allows for the measure of a man and makes it fun. It is the ultimate test of one's abilities. For someone who seems to have boundless potential in their own sight, a proper challenge is needed to find out what ones limitations actually are. I have not found many limitations so far because no challenge in life has been enough for me. I need bigger challenges to find my limits.You say "people here who are educated in engineering far beyond your level." --- each may be more educated vertically, but need not be more educated horizontally necessarily. And when we move outside of your various niches of expertise, this is where lacking is often discovered. To have width and depth of education in engineering is rare. You assume if one has depth in one niche they are the expert on niches outside their domain as well it seems. NOBODY on this forum is educated in engineering a humanoid robot that is a humanoid form factor and lifelike that moves realistic and talks realistic and has advanced AI and can play sports, do chores, make more robots, etc. This doesn't exist so we are mostly all on even playing field although likely I'm the leader in this field as I've been studying this for over a decade where most of you are just considering it.You say "this can be done already without using a reconstruction of human bones and the unneeded complexity of all that biological baggage. It isn't needed." --- it is needed if you want the same range of motion and degrees of freedom while retaining the structural integrity and durability of a human body as well as the ability to place, angle, and position the muscles in such a way that you have a proven reference point for everything which the human body already provides. Once you step outside of this, you introduce many unknowns and can no longer use the human body for reference on all questions and gain from its wisdom built into it. So then you hamper your progress and shoot yourself in the foot by NOT taking this proven design and just copying it to save all that trial and error and learning the hard way why your new design fails.You say the control issues will be too complex for you to handle. I disagree. It really isn't complex at all. You just create a rotating magnetic field using a dual h bridge to your bldc motor and then you measure the joint angle changes this outputs as the bldc motor winches the fishing line in which actuates the joint in question. Easy as pie. Literally children do this stuff. The harder part is designing the robust downgearing system since I didn't want off the shelf noisy metal gears ruining everything by the noise. And it seems I might be nearing success on that stuff.You say "the design (using human bone structure etc.) is too unstable for it to work." --- I have no idea why you'd think that. Sounds ridiculous. Obviously human bone structure is not too unstable because just look at your own body. It does work. So its already proven. We aren't seeing if the human body's skeletal and musculature systems are too unstable. We already know they are stable enough. That is not the question.You say "Only then will the sheer complexity of your task hit you really hard." --- not sure why that would change my view of the complexity. But maybe. Doubt it though.You say "But I hope you will have had fun trying and you will have learned a lot." -- well I appreciate that. Those are kind words which are rare on this thread so I appreciate that.You say "Now I'll start your next post for you because I am truly a learning system myself -"I disagree ..."" --- I guess you must have a magic ball in order to see into the future with such accuracy like this. You were right!@MK14I'm not sure what autism has to do with any of it, and I don't know if I have some autism in some areas or not. Both my wife and mom who are mental health professionals with degrees in it did not diagnose me as having autism despite knowing me for decades. But anyways, I agree that estimating how long a project will take is hard if you never did that project before or anything similar. It's practically impossible. Factors like real life getting in the way and not knowing how much time you will have to put into it make it even more complicated and full of unknown variables. Not knowing if you will outsource parts or use open source outside hardware also throws unknowns. But xrunner's point was I don't realize how hard this project will be whereas your point is I don't know how long it will take. I find these similar but distinct topics. They may have overlap but aren't the same thing really.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:50:22 pm
content: Regarding timescale and project cost estimation in Electronics and Software...Off-topic anecdote time...I started a new job in 2006 as a software engineer in SAAS and electronics company (telecoms sector). My boss had a little velvet drawstring bag on his desk with some Dungeons and Dragons dice in it. D4 up to D20 etc. After a while I plucked up the courage to ask about the bag and if he was a keen D&D player."Ahh, I wondered when you'd ask about that", he said with a grin. "No I don't play D&D any more, although I was a keen player a few years back. These days I use the dice to pad out timescales. I'll take my own best estimate for a project's duration and then roll a few of these dice and add that many weeks to the project."I could tell he was absolutely serious. He did have a very good sense of how long a project would realistically take and so the dice only added a bit of extra breathing room.A few months later he passed on another bit of advice..."If you ever have to estimate the cost of something, give it your best estimate and then multiply that by "e".("e" being the base of natural logarithms, equal 2.718... an irrational number).The reasoning being that if you send a quote to the customer and it's something like $1,000,000 dead-on then they are clearly going to think you just plucked a number out of the air without thought. But saying "it'll cost you $1,013,417.33" apparently looks favourable with the beancounters.I have no idea if it worked or not but we never went overschedule and the customers never baulked at our quotes for the 15 years I was there!Not sure if this is commonplace but it sounds like something out of the MBA playbook to me.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 12:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 12:45:21 pmWell I predicted that one 100% accurately.Your word salad wasn't tasteful though.So can you do the task I suggested? When will we be able to see the arm on a test rig and do the things I suggested?Another old but useful phrase that I use from time-to-time"The proof is in the pudding"

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:02:39 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 12:45:21 pmYou are right, they are NOT the same thing.But, usually, if something is extremely technically hard/difficult/tricky. Then creating that part of the project, including any software it requires and getting it working well. Can take considerably longer, to do.E.g. If all you need to do, is flash an LED at some slow rate, to indicate something to a user. It may not take very long to wire up and use an NE555 timer, or LED with built in flashing circuitry, or even writing some simple software, to flash the LED on and off, at a sensible rate.But, if instead, it turns out you need to drive a large and complicated screen. It may need a GUI, which could involve learning how to do it well. Along with other challenges, in order to complete that part of the project. Such as finding out how to program an FPGA, to interface between your hardware and the screens, rare/complicated interface (because the screen of the right dimensions, shape, and brightness (for outdoor daylight operation)/clarity for your Robot, might have this rare interface type, built into it, rather than more common/standard ones, such as HDMI).In other words. Hard technical problems, can take a (very) long time to solve.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:05:09 pm
content: @wobblyCool story wobbly but I don't think any of it applies in this case.@xrunnerYou say "So can you do the task I suggested?" --- no. I would not waste time hard coding movements other than finger forward and backward joint by joint just ensuring everything moves right and testing speeds. To integrate all the joints into complex movement patterns with full inverse kinematics and motion profiles harmonizing all of it will be the work of the AI. Hard coding that is a waste of time.You say "When will we be able to see the arm on a test rig and do the things I suggested?" --- I at one point on my journey did plan to mount the arm to a 5 gallon bucket and just have webcam eyes on a pole sticking out the bucket and this would be the test rig. But then everyone started calling it the bucket bot and it became a meme. I did not like this. I want people to visualize the final realistic humanoid robot so I won't build a test rig at all. When the arm is ready, I will mount it to the torso skeleton and actuate it more from there. The torso is very involved with the arm anyways as it contains the liquid cooling and air cooling pumps, the batteries, the main windows 7 PC, and even has some of the motors that I just couldn't fit into the arm but are needed for the arm. So no test rig. The torso is too interdependent and so the torso will be the test rig. As far as when. I have zero clue. Maybe 7 or 8 years I hope.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 01:05:09 pmSo you are going to build the entire very complex arm with fishing line pulleys and motors and then just proceed with the rest of the project. All this without knowing what mechanical issues that the arm has which would have been revealed with thorough bench testing. No sane engineer would do that.The AI cannot fix the internal mechanical issues that the arm will have (and it will have many that you cannot foresee). It can only work with the mechanical device it is presented with. Any mechanical internal design flaws are out of it's scope of change. Those are YOUR problem as the designer of the arm. And you blatantly state you will not test a complete arm before proceeding with even more complex parts of the design.IMHO - You are very clearly incapable of doing a project of this magnitude. This realization will hit you sooner or later, like Co. Kurtz said in Apacolypse Now "Like a diamond ... a diamond bullet shot right through my forehead". It will eventually hit you that hard, and you will slowly fade away from it and do other things.I have my own suspicions of why you are doing all this but I better be quiet about those here.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:36:06 pm
content: @xrunnerYou say "So you are going to build the entire very complex arm with fishing line pulleys and motors and then just proceed with the rest of the project." --- No, I said I will test the full ranges of motion back and forth of each joint. I will also test the speeds so do these slow and fast. I can even test with weights applied to test load bearing capacities. I can even test to failure to know limits. What I will not do is a complicated movement sequence of the whole arm plotted by hand hard coded which will not add to my knowledge of the function of the arm in my opinion in any way compared to the tests I already pointed out.You say "The AI cannot fix the internal mechanical issues that the arm will have (and it will have many that you cannot foresee)." --- I didn't say it could. However, any looseness or bouncyness rather than rigid and tight precise movements the AI can accomodate for. Humans move this way just fine unlike industrial machines. But AI can account for this.You say "you blatantly state you will not test a complete arm before proceeding with even more complex parts of the design." --- I disagree. I will test each individual joint of the arm as I complete that joint one at a time. But to test alot of it the arm has to mount to the ribcage first.You say "You are very clearly incapable of doing a project of this magnitude." --- I disagree. In fact, the only possible way that's true is if my time runs out aka I die. And if I die too soon, then I'll just finish it in the afterlife if God lets me continue working on it and I don't see why He would not. So either way it will get done IMO. At that point I'd have zero time restriction.You say "I have my own suspicions of why you are doing all this but I better be quiet about those here." --- I was doing it before I decided to share it on some forums for feedback so no, it's not just for feedback or donations or w/e. I actually like robotics and have wanted to do this for years because of robot movies and stuff. They are cool. Also, it's not a sex bot if that's the other angle you are going with. I think that's sinful.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:39:54 pm
content: Let us recall that “Necessity is the mother of inventions/innovations”.We may say that the true level of one’s intelligence shows uponlywhenever he needsreallyto do/have something new (new to him, if not to the world). And not having it would be out of question for him, unless he dies before finishing it.In reverse, without havingrealinterest in doing something, one’s failure (in doing it) is possible, almost always, no matter how intelligent he might be.I personally lived both cases several times.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 02:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 01:36:06 pmI wish you had said this at the beginning. That changes everything! Now we have an infinitely long timescaleFair enough, this opens all sorts of avenues hitherto unexplored. Bravo.Edit: This also suggests that the budget is now unlimited too, correct?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 02:53:09 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 04:01:33 ami would love to see what motor model used that you want to placed spreaded in forearm etc, to conform with anatomically correctness, i suspect those motors will be very underpowered or either very slow if you want to implement gear down as well to increase torque/force etc..in the early day i tried to built 2 wheels robot (3rd wheel is just dummy castor) and run straight through closed loop encoder reading read by arduino like board and sent via USB to WinXP atom machine for processing and motor command sent by the WinXP machine back to arduino and then motor driver.. the outcome is a little bit funny, i didnt have time to polish it. i also drew and plan a humanoid robot with arm and leg but not as detail as yours. i figured my actuator/motor problem is, human muscle contains 2 type or muscle, fast muscle and slow (but strong) muscle. combined we can get fast and strong limb/arm.. and i havent found a mechanical/electrical motor that has such 2 type (speed but weak + slow but strong) system and also that compact enough i can fit into arm/leg joint (elbow or knee) very close to anatomically correct size. until the motor is developed i will keep my dream on hold. thats why my interest in actuators/motors you are going to use.hint: dont get easily agitated by the "dream killers"/naysayers around here, thread like this is guaranteed 100% will attract those kind of people, including myself sometime. i'm not saying you nor they are wrong, but my advice is treat them as reminder or things to consider, and dont talk much to prove you are right unless you have physical proof to show, keep working on it 90% and 10% to show/prove it here... since to my eye your objectives are too daunting almost impossible to achieve by myself at least. some pictures of fishing hook tucked into black fiber taped things wont cut it, i prefer some video to show it in motion.and use "quote" button to quote's people word to reply, thats much neater imho.. ymmv.Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 01:36:06 pmthats the spirit!i thought about it too, but rethinking about it, imho in afterlife 99% of us will regret because we dont work hard enough to find the truth about the purpose of life and the genesis of creation, because the truth is too buried deep inside many of false claims. and those who succeed (read as in heaven), will not give a rat arse about fishing hook tucked to a black goo fiber tape, they will simply ask from the ultimate creator, hey my lord, just teach me how to design and build a real biological muscle and bones and skin etcymmv.ps: sorry broken english i'm in hurry no time grammer check...

author: Manul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 03:06:26 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 01:36:06 pmI watched parts of your coding videos, some old, some new. There's nothing there. It's just messing around - at best. On the other hand, your seem to have amazing drawing skills.I will try to explain what I mean in words you should understand. You know that it's a sin to waste your talents. God gave you artistic abilities, yet you throw them away and insist on messing around with things which are clearly not your cup of tea. Have you considered that it might indeed be evil, who deceives you into doing so? I tell you this not to insult you or anything, but because it's genuinely sad for me to see when people waste talent or generally don't realize how off-track they are. Similar to how talented people waste themselves in alcohol or drugs.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 03:13:01 pm
content: i dont consider coder that uses ready made codes/library as accomplished/hardcore coder, real coder codes/designs their own AI engineno offense, i admit we dont have enough lifetime to do all the things.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 03:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 06, 2024, 10:06:56 amOf course he would, but I don't think he knows enough about OSs to understand the differences. Windows is a GENERAL PURPOSE OS, whereas any half-way decent bit of automation uses a REAL TIME OS.Windows (especially W7) is - in my opinion - a fine OS, but there is little about it that is aimed at real-time system architectures. It helps if you throw enough processing power at it to overcome most of the real-time limitations, but it has poor error handling and recovery, for instance. OK, so I'm using a car analogy, but would you be happy for it to blue-screen-and-reboot half way through overtaking another car?@artbyrobotis correct to sing the praises of W7, but a serious developer would be looking at a custom Linux build. Or maybe better, a custom ANDROID build. (See what I did there?)

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 03:29:42 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on October 06, 2024, 03:19:20 pmI do see what you did there.I think Linux has a similar set of problems, it's still a general purpose OS. True, a custom build (something like LFS) might yield a workable platform. But why tie yourself to a pre-existing platform? Not sure if Github works in Heaven anyway (probably does, perhaps they get the nightly builds?).The project is so esoteric it would be best to just develop a new OS from bare metal.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 03:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on October 06, 2024, 03:19:20 pmWell, if I understand their (OP) background correctly (which I probably learned from their YouTube channel). They use to be a computer programmer, although I don't know the specific details.You're right, they would be much better off, using a proper real-time operating system, meant for such tasks.But it wouldn't be the first embedded system, which has been created around a Windows operating system.I've met at least one person, who thinks that if the Windows, is suitably tamed (although this was a much older windows version, they were talking about), by removing/disabling unwanted things, and running the minimum of unnecessary services and things. It can actually perform rather well.Some people (most probably), seem to really like Windows, and are surprisingly (at least to me), reluctant to change to something else. Whether that is for embedded systems, or their normal desktop computer.Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.Although the things I keep on hearing about Microsoft's antics, amaze me, at how so many people, just happily carry on using it.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 03:45:11 pm
content: About robots, I guess a robot is not supposed to know the purpose of its temporary existence. It is made just to execute the various programs that are embedded in its structure.Similarly, we like it or not, humans (forming the great majority around the world) who find themselves having no choice but to execute their preprogramed instincts only (forced to live as robots), see the purpose of their temporary existence simply in what they do in the material world (no matter if seen by others as good or evil). For example, even those whose nature lets them enjoy hunting other humans are seen as brave heroes if their killing serves the interest of some powerful rich masters (usually representing a country or a tribe).I am afraid that the end purpose of human's existence could be known only by those who don't have to (are free not to) live like robots. I wonder how many around here feel a great joy whenever they decide to oppose their imposed instincts (for example, by ignoring their natural rights of survival and having fair justice, to name a few)?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 11:37:44 amOh, so you're a leading medic as well as an artist now, are you?The billions of people with bad backs will be pleased to learn that it's all their own fault.Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 11:37:44 amOH.MY.GOD!In the past 18 months my cousin died of cancer. Then my mum. Then my brother. His wife almost died of it. And now I've got incurable cancer. My other brother is a vicar with 30+ years service to God and the community, and yet he is apparently being punished by losing his two brothers, his mum, his cousin and almost his sister-in-law to cancer. So you think he - who has probably served God in more ways than you could ever imagine - is being PUNISHED BY GOD??Quote from: artbyrobot on October 05, 2024, 11:37:44 amAnybody who thinks it is just to punish the children for the sins of their parents is EVIL.@artbyrobot, YOU ARE EVIL!Actually I can't say that with any conviction because I'm a devout atheist and don't believe in God, Satan, demons or any of that. There is evil, but I'm afraid, my little fantasist, that it is evolved into us along with the power of good. Good and evil evolved from our basic survival instincts.But having read your responses, and especially the opinions of the people who have checked out your software claims, and your hilariously inept attempts at mechanics, I've come to the view that you are just a sad little twat with a PROFOUND lack of self-knowledge who lives in a fantasy world of make-believe and miracles. I find your personality and attitude intolerable, so I will terminate our correspondence at this point.I am just one voice out of many, but I'm exercising mine to tell you to fuck off now, and take your pathetic fantasy world with you.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:18:07 pm
content: Sin... sin...!!! is there someone here who can define the word 'sinning'.In my vocabulary, a human sins whenever he hurts, for one reason or another and in one way or another, another human. And the latter one (if he is free not to react as a robot, not to follow his natural instincts) is given the power to forgive his offender.I guess, any other definition of sin (or the like) is inherited from paganism.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 06, 2024, 01:36:06 pmThen why are you posting and hosting your images on a love doll forum. Here's where one of your images is hosted that was posted on this forum at the very beginning -https://dollforum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1283447and this is the forum -https://dollforum.com/

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:23:23 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on October 06, 2024, 04:21:45 pmWow, what on earth is this thread really about then?Technically speaking, that is.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:26:33 pm
content: The doll thing! Never noticed the URL. Oh man, now that's some funny stuff.

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:30:53 pm
content: Webcam eyes, fishing line, windows 7... it's all starting to make sense.No wonder he doesn't like interrupts.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 06, 2024, 04:23:23 pmUh well, ah, Hmmm ... I'd say use your imagination.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:34:19 pm
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 06, 2024, 04:30:53 pm

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 04:40:55 pm
content: @MK14, I haven't seen that in years, Double Polaroid!!

author: Manul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 05:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on October 06, 2024, 04:21:45 pmThat's it, that's the turning point. I'm going to nearby market to grab popcorn.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 05:53:09 pm
content: Quote from: Manul on October 06, 2024, 05:24:51 pmGet me a bag of salted caramel Manul, I'll bring the cola and the lawn chairs.(Just posting this to subscribe to the thread, I think Larry's got some explaining to do. It's all become a lot more like "Wonderworld").

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 06:48:25 pm
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 06, 2024, 04:30:53 pmI wonder how many breasts it has!

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 06, 2024, 04:30:53 pmKa-boom, tssshhh!

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:32:16 pm
content: So he's not working on Mudd's Women?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:51:39 pm
content: Hey, sorry, another "final" comment.I've had a good look at various videos, and I'm gobsmacked!@artbyrobot, you're even more of a moron than I thought! You think turning a bearing into a pulley by holding little discs of plastic either side withthreadcounts as anINVENTION??!!The video is a hoot! "So the thread goes through and back to hold the discs in place. Then the upper rope comes down, round the outer of the bearing and up again. And finally the anchor rope goes........ (long pause as he thinks 'Oh fuck!) ..... errmmm, through the same hole as the thread. Hmmmm."All of the vids proceed with glacial slowness, which clearly reflects the speed of his thinking and is why, after10 yearsof development, he's got three-fifths of fuck all to show for it. I know plenty of clockmakers, watchmakers and model engineers who could wipe the floor with@artbyrobotin five minutes.I wish I'd bothered to go to his website right at the beginning, because then I wouldn't even have engaged with this thread at all.Guys, go and check him out for yourselves - be prepared for stultifying tedium and hilarious ineptitude. It's great! (For a few minutes, anyway.)

author: wobbly
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 08:23:36 pm
content: But hasn't this been an entertaining thread though?I mean fair play to our valiant protagonist - I feel like I have been on a rollercoaster ride of engineering and spirituality and utter nonsense for a few days.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 08:46:07 pm
content: Quote from: wobbly on October 06, 2024, 08:23:36 pmNo engineering to be found, but yes, it's been quite a giggle. He got a bit near the knuckle when he said cancer was God punishing you for sinning, and that he supported killing children (by giving them cancer) if their parents had sinned. That's not spiritual, it's sick.Anyway, it looks like he has left the building. Must have been when he realised his sex doll picture hosting site had been rumbled.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 12:37:21 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on October 06, 2024, 04:21:45 pmand why you took the trouble to sniff everything beyond context of this thread? are you impotence? or have sexual tendecy toward same gender? (no offense, just curious) sex is natural phenomena unless you choose or think you have traits that go against natural phenomena/evolution/procreation, or try to define whats unnatural as natural? when we/women/society choose/define to live in a way that makes natural phenomena difficult to occur or implemented, or not according "by the book", then sex robot is one natural after effect of it imho, supply and demand i dont think there's any problem with it, stop trying to pretend as an ethical philosopher. dont get me into cancer as "punishment" or not punishment philosophy, its goes beyond the context and reaching to boundary of whats not allowed in this forum, cheers.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 01:00:53 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 07, 2024, 12:37:21 amPossibly xrunner is simply just tech savvy and checks the URL of links before clicking on them? It would be the smart thing to do.Now, I can see how artbyrobot got there. It's a pretty natural place to look if you're designing the most realistic human looking robot. They've definitely got that down pat with those dolls. But again, he'd be viewing what's essentially pornography by being a member of a forum with the ability to post pictures.So its ironic when an arrogant, self righteous person who is preaching about "sin", posts links to a images hosted on a sex doll site.I personally don't have a problem with porn, sex dolls, etc, but, when such a person goes on and on pushing their extreme religious ideology onto others, its laughable hypocrisy and deserving of mockery when they are caught red handed like that.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 am
content: @KerimFYou say "We may say that the true level of one’s intelligence shows up only whenever he needs really to do/have something new (new to him, if not to the world). And not having it would be out of question for him, unless he dies before finishing it." --- exactly. Great point Kerimf.@wobblyYou say my potential ability to work on this in the afterlife means I have an infinite budget and timescale. --- yes, in theory it does. However, that's plan B. I still want to try to get it done before I die. That's just my back up plan. So I can't use that as a crutch by overly relying on it too much as you infer here.@Mechatrommeri would love to see what motor model used that you want to placed spreaded in forearm etc, to conform with anatomically correctness, i suspect those motors will be very underpowered or either very slow if you want to implement gear down as well to increase torque/force etc.." --- I know of only 1 robot company that developed their own motors that don't then downgear AT ALL. It's a nice luxury but I'm not taking that route. I want off the shelf motors for now at least. Maybe some day in a future version I can go all custom motors no downgearing. That said, I'm using 2430 BLDC motors. Pretty sure I already said this. The have enough throughput for fingers but have to be downgeared. They are high speed low torque and need gearing to bring to normal speed decent torque for fingers.You say "i havent found a mechanical/electrical motor that has such 2 type (speed but weak + slow but strong) system" --- interestingly, my pulley system has a fast group and slower stronger group which only engages when the load is more significant. I may have accidentally pulled this off without intending to.You say "hint: dont get easily agitated by the "dream killers"/naysayers around here, thread like this is guaranteed 100% will attract those kind of people" --- I'm getting used to it. My dad is one. Has given me that for years. I avoid talking to him about anything I plan to do that isn't extremely easy and quick to get done. His dream killing hurts more and is more personal. But online strangers don't have the impact when they trash my dreams so much. Plus, I think if a dreamer dreams too big, the dream killer can help bring them more down to earth maybe and balance their expectations closer to reality. The dreamer is at 10 and the naysayer at 1 and the reality is probably at 4 or 5. So they are both wrong probably and a compromise is probably the truth.You say "dont talk much to prove you are right unless you have physical proof to show" --- I disagree. I can address everybody in a respectful manner and address all their points with my own arguments as time allows as long as I enjoy it and don't get discouraged by it. I might persuade some but most importantly, I'm getting feedback at all which is a blessing. Usually, these project threads get crickets. This one seems to have gone viral lately. I doubt that will last.You say "some pictures of fishing hook tucked into black fiber" --- I am not using the whole hook. I just wanted the eye of the hook which I snapped off with a cutter and sanded smooth on edges and then use that as a anchor point to tie to. I'm open to suggestions on how else to get a tiny ring that's similar and already premade of the same size or close.You say "and use "quote" button to quote's people word to reply, thats much neater" --- I'd rather use quotation marks which are plenty neat IMO.You say those who succeed in finding the truth about the purpose of life etc and qualify for heaven will not care about robotics. I agree in part, however, I am not positive it is that cut and dry. First, I think I have succeeded as evidenced by my becoming a living saint who no longer sins (willfully). That is a Biblical indicator you are heading for heaven on the narrow path. And yet I still have interest in robots now despite being hard core for God and for obeying God. So what about my dying would change that? Well maybe seeing the angels and other saints all the time would take up all my free time so I would not have time for robots. But I am not positive that need be the case. Perhaps I'd still have 5% of my time totally alone to still do hobbies. Especially during the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth coming up. If I am part of that, my job will be to govern people like Moses did in the wilderness. I may want breaks to do hobbies and relax alone during that time. Surely if I'm in a heavenly choire in the throneroom of God I'm not going to be messing with fishing hooks. But when not doing that type of thing its possible I'd do hobbies. Not sure.You say "teach me how to design and build a real biological muscle and bones and skin etc" --- I don't think God would allow that. If he taught someone that and they later rebelled, they could literally start a new race of people made by their own hands and it would be a mess. And forming their very bodies by hand would make those people consider this rebel a God to them which would usurp the true God. So that information would be a trade secret I think.@ManulYou say "I watched parts of your coding videos, some old, some new. There's nothing there. It's just messing around - at best." --- I disagree. I literally code productively on coding videos and the code functions well and works efficiently and has very few bugs if any even on first draft. You have presented patently and objectively false information here. In other words it's a lie.You say "You know that it's a sin to waste your talents. God gave you artistic abilities, yet you throw them away and insist on messing around with things which are clearly not your cup of tea." --- I disagree on both points. It MAY BE a sin to waste your talents but not if you do so unknowingly or by necessity. It can be a sin to use your talents if you do so at the expense of providing for your family. For example, lets say you insist on pursuing art but make hardly any money at it and your family is starving. That's sinful regardless of your art skills. Also, if you are alluding to the parable of the talents, the Bible is not speaking of art talents or sports talents when it speaks of wasting talents. It is speaking of talents aka dollars. Talents were a form of currency back then. You could have 10 talents which would be like $10k cash. So it was a sin to waste cash you were blessed with on loan from God that you were supposed to use for good.Also, you imply that artistic abilities are a good thing. While they are okay, generally they aren't something you can make money at. Starving artist is a term for a reason. So the WISE way to use artistic talents is to use them in the course of reglar non-art related business and projects. So you can use them to have a good eye for your remodeling of real estate. Or you can use them to make better youtube thumbnails for your non-art related youtube channel videos. Or you can use them to build a good looking robot. I use mine in all these ways. So they are NOT wasted like you suggest is happening. Fine art is a waste of artistiic talents if it doesn't pay the bills. Which one of you would pay 6 figures for a masterpiece painted by me? No takers? That's what I thought. Waste of my time to pursue painting or drawing then professionally speaking.You say "Have you considered that it might indeed be evil, who deceives you into doing so?" --- yes, I have considered that. Like it could be my pride or hunger for attention causing me to build robots. But I determined it is neither. Sure some attention for it is nice but its not a negative unhealthy hunger for attention. And I don't have pride issues to my knowledge so its not that IMO. Also, as a saint, I am convinced I am unable to be deceived by evil like you suggest. God would help me see through the deception IMO.You say "it's genuinely sad for me to see when people waste talent or generally don't realize how off-track they are." --- I don't think either apply to me. As I said I use my art talent in many ways for useful things that actually are productive and bring income unlike fine art which is a dead end IMO. Also, even if the robot was off track, I don't work on it that much so the risk it is taking away from things I could be working on is lowered by a ton. Like I said earlier most of the time I put into the robot is during what would otherwise be my TV time so I ONLY sacrifice watching TV to work on it. I pursue many healthy things besides the robot and use my various talents (I have MANY) doing many things.@steveYou say "I don't think he knows enough about OSs to understand the differences." --- I disagree. I have listened to podcasts about real time OSs and get the gist. I also am well on my way to developing my own OS so I know alot more than most people about OSs. Most people have never made an OS.you say that windows has poor error handling and recovery, for instance." --- I am not sure how that is relevant. My program should handle its own errors that isn't windows job IMO. Unless you are referring to window's own errors? I don't think there are any major ones. I run windows 7 for several months without any bugs and I never even restart it during those several months and I use sometimes like 15 programs open at once.You say "would you be happy for it to blue-screen-and-reboot half way through overtaking another car" --- I don't get bluescreens on windows 7. I don't get reboots. I don't share your experience. Seems you are talking about windows xp or windows 95 or something windows 7 doesn't have those issues. It is stable as can be from my experience.You say "a serious developer would be looking at a custom Linux build." --- yeah if they are inside the box thinkers copying others. An outside the box thinker like myself can use windows just fine IMO. Liinux is just hype IMO.@wobblyYou say "why tie yourself to a pre-existing platform?" --- I mean I am building a OS from scratch which I COULD use one day for the robot if I want. But I'm not counting on that and doubt it will come to that. I think windows would be fine. But if windows really isn't up to the task, I would go full custom OS over linux or any OS anybody offers. I'd rather just go full custom at that point.You say "Not sure if Github works in Heaven anyway" --- I think you misunderstand my view of the afterlife. Sure, the heaven you see in movies might be a thing involved in it all, but it isn't like we just will hang out there forever. God sends the saints BACK to THIS earth to rule for 1k years. During that time we are with living people on this same earth and these living people are still just mortals in mortal bodies but the saints will have immortal bodies like angels. it is during this timeframe that I can find my hard drive and robot materials and resume my build on this earth using this earth's resources. Also, I could have God rematerialize all this earth's resources including windows 7 in the event that they were destroyed by natural disasters or w/e while I'm dead. Or lost in a landfill or w/e. God could help me either dig them up or could just materialize them for me with magic.You say "The project is so esoteric it would be best to just develop a new OS from bare metal." --- I'm doing this already but am not set on it being the robot's OS but it is plan b.@MK14You say "Some people (most probably), seem to really like Windows, and are surprisingly (at least to me), reluctant to change to something else." --- that's because we used it our whole life and know it like the back of our hand and changing would be like switching to speaking a new language at the age of 50. Just a waste of time and have to relearn decades of education to master the new OS. Total dumb waste.@KerimFYou say "About robots, I guess a robot is not supposed to know the purpose of its temporary existence." --- who gets to make that rule? I completely disagree. I am teaching my robot exactly what its purpose is and exactly what the purpose of mankind is the the purpose of this earth is and what God's overarching plans are etc. The robot will have a Biblical worldview I give to it and will not be able to get out of that world view. I will make sure escaping the Biblical world view is not possible for it.You say "It is made just to execute the various programs that are embedded in its structure." --- correct. That doesn't mean it can't have a worldview. Even though its true "understanding" is only artificial and not real like a person can understand stuff. It would have some pseudo understanding that parallels true understanding but is fake in a sense. Machines can't ACTUALLY understand ANYTHING and never will. They have no soul.You say humans have no choice but to execute their instincts only. I disagree. We have a choice. My instinct is to have sex with lots of hot women. It would be fun and feel good physically. But I know it is wrong to be a womanizer. So I don't do that and instead I obey God. So you saying we have no choice but to give into our base sinful desires is just giving a license for sin and its evil to say it. It's a lie. We can choose to do good. God says if you choose to do well will you not be accepted? He says that sin knocks at your door and it desires to have you but you must rule over it. We have to overcome the sin in us that wants to take over. We have to choose to do good instead of evil. It is a choice. You lie to say we have no choice.You say "I am afraid that the end purpose of human's existence could be known only by those who don't have to (are free not to) live like robots." --- nobody has to live like robots. Everyone has the choice to obey God instead. And yes, those who refuse to give into their evil desires but instead obey God are shown by God the end purpose. I am one such person IMO. Anyone can do it if they are sick of being a sinner and ready to follow God fully.@SteveYou say "The billions of people with bad backs will be pleased to learn that it's all their own fault." --- this is common knowledge. Sit on your butt hunched over all day on a phone with crap posture and never hit the gym for decades and wonder why you are obese with a bad back. This is not rocket science folks. Be healthy and enjoy a good back. Use good form when you lift heavy things and have a good back. It's common sense.You say "now I've got incurable cancer." --- that doesn't exist. God can cure it.You say "My other brother is a vicar" --- are you suggesting all Catholic priests are sinless? *literally everyone in room coughs* If you have even one sin in your life you refuse to repent of, no matter what church you are with, you are on your way to hell. And so being a priest is not a guarantee of being more worthy of supernatural healing of disease.You say "So you think he - who has probably served God in more ways than you could ever imagine - is being PUNISHED BY GOD??" --- lets say he actually is walking in absolute holiness and doens't sin willfully AT ALL and genuinely follows God fully. In that case, he would not be getting punished by God for his current lifestyle we can agree. However, he could be getting punished by God for past sins he already repented of. The Bible says you will reap what you sew. So if he did some really evil stuff in the past, he could still be getting punished for that. Consider this: if you reap what you sew and he didn't finish reaping things he sewed in the past, he'd have to finish his reaping in this life because assuming he went to heaven, it is unlikely he'd still be reaping punishments there. I would find it odd seeing people in heaven being punished still by God for past sins although it could be possible in the case of deathbed conversions? Not sure.That said, David in the Bible was said to have done what was right in the sight of the Lord ALL the days of his life EXCEPT in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. So that being the case, why did David suffer punishments years and years and even decades after the Uriah incident? Because he had to reap what he sewed from that long past incident. So here we have a Biblical precedent for someone being punished 30 years later for something they did DESPITE them repenting of that and living holy lives after the fact. This COULD be the case for your brother. I have no clue. It can also be the case that your brother is doing sins WHILE serving in his official capacities and does this knowingly. Supposing that were true, and I am merely painting a hypothetical here, not an accusation of a total stranger mind you, supposing that were true, the fact God taught him much and used him much and yet he is now sinning in God's face would be a BIG cause for BIG punishment. Because the Bible says to him who is given much, more will be required. It also says not many should be teachers for they will face a stricter judgement. If your brother is a vicar, then he's a teacher and example to others. He's held to a higher standard possibly then and would be in even bigger trouble if he doesn't walk in total holiness on a daily basis.Steve MUST have the following attitude if he received this message accurately: I, Steve, love my family alot and don't like to think of them as sinners. Especially my brother who serves as a vicar and seems to be a great example. So if cancer in my family is a judgement from God for sins of my family, that would be a shocking thing I hadn't considered before. I find it unlikely but am open to hearing out other views. Artbyrobot threw out some compelling theories based on the Bible and his study of it. I realize he doesn't know my family and is not judging them in any way. He is merely trying to shed some Bible theory onto the situation at MY request in a respectful manner that is not offensive at all. He also did not want to be off topic of projects and technology which is what this forum section is for and so he kept it short and sweet but steered the conversation back to technology quickly to respect the rules of the forum while also respecting a poster who had a Bible related question. He was upright and honest and praiseworthy in all of his words and deserves the utmost respect and applause from us all for his example. Also all of us moderators agree with Steve on this. We think Artbyrobot is the man and a valuable forum member who is an example of what we all should strive to be on this forum.You say "Anybody who thinks it is just to punish the children for the sins of their parents is EVIL @artbyrobot, YOU ARE EVIL!" --- I think there is more nuance to it than that. I asked one of my Bible teacher's (teachers can have teachers) about this as it pertained to David's son with Bathsheba that God had put to death to punish David. I asked if the child was being punished for what David did. My teacher said the child was not being punished, God was punishing DAVID by taking the child's life. So I agreed. It may seem like God is punishing the child but that is not the point. The point was to punish David. The next question becomes: well didn't the child suffer? Should the child have to suffer? That seems messed up! Well my other Bible teacher said he thinks the child did not suffer. He thinks he felt just slowly his life force draining but no physical pain. Sort of just getting weaker and weaker and falling into a sleep and dying that way. A painless death. So I agree with your statement here in a sense and disagree that I'm evil and disagree that by extension God is evil - since I'm merely agreeing with God's approach after all. God is NOT evil. What I can say is that when kids die to punish their parents, I think God would make it as painless a death as possible basically. If he has no gripe with the kids and only with the parents, their death is purposeful - to punish the parents, and yet you'd want to try to keep their pain in dying to a minimum. That we can agree on. There is so much more to say on this but I have to keep it short to get back on topic of robotics. One more thing I'll say though. In some movies, there's a screwup in bootcamp or football camp and the coach or boot-camp drill sargent "punishes" the rest of the group when the screwup screws up. The whole team does pushups. The screw up, not wanting to upset the rest of the team tried harder than ever to do better after that. It is one thing to get punished and easier, but to make your whole team get punished is harder to take. You hate to see it so you try for their sakes even harder. Creates a team mentality and doing things for your team so your team doesn't get into trouble because of you. I think some of the same psychological tactics are at play in God punishing the family or city or w/e because of the actions of one member or a few members etc. Again, the team isn't really being "punished" but moreso the offender is being punished by the team having to suffer as a result of the offenders actions. This is related. And no, these coaches and drill instructors are not considered evil for this tactic. Its a brilliant strategy and hits home for the offender well. It is effective. The team suffers the splash damage intended chiefly for the offender in its purpose. The instructor is not mad at the team, but allows them to suffer consequences aimed at making the offender feel worse than ever. The psychological impact on the offender is the goal. Torment for him is the main goal. A little physical suffering for the team is a means to an end and justified even though they did nothing wrong. This isn't evil as you suggest. Evil is only evil if there is cold and malicious intent behind it that is not overarchingly for the good in its motives. The coach or instructor is trying to get everyone's best effort and prepare them for a successful war or for a successful football season. Their goal is to bless their team or squad and they want the best outcome for them in the long term. So whatever psychological games they play and suffering they cause toward the ultimate good end is justified due to the overarching healthy goal in the long term. So also, God's goal is to get us to stop sinning and live lives free of shame and regret where we are all kind and loving to eachother and do good to one another. So if he allows suffering sometimes of the non-offenders, to punish the offenders deeply, to make an example of them, to cause others to fear God and obey God and in turn improve their lives and be happier and more blessed and more loving and do the good they know to do more and everyone enters more and more a utopia. Utopia then is the goal of God. And He steps on toes to get us there. But you don't see the forest through the trees and just say hey God stay out of it! Not considering the long term goal is amazing and supporting complex and sometimes seemingly unfair ways he goes about these goals. God's ways are fair. But it takes wisdom and understanding to test and approve of God's perfect ways. And you have to meditate and study deeply for a long time to truly understand things of God. Suffice to say, everyone wants utopia but not everyone is happy on God's methods toward steering us that direction. They think they could do better? They are prideful and blind to think that. God's a genius. He never makes a single mistake.You say "But having read your responses, and especially the opinions of the people who have checked out your software claims, and your hilariously inept attempts at mechanics, I've come to the view that you are just a sad little twat with a PROFOUND lack of self-knowledge who lives in a fantasy world of make-believe and miracles. I find your personality and attitude intolerable, so I will terminate our correspondence at this point." --- let the mods be FAIR and consider the personal attacks Steve brings here. Calling me a twat for example. You know, I'm in the minority being a religious person and people come shoving their atheism religion down my throat uninvited and I push back even a tiny bit and I'm the one shoving Bible down throats. It's hypocrisy! Atheism is a religion. Notice how Steve says "DEVOUT atheist"... its a religion you can be devout in dedication to. Devout is even a religious term. He unconsciously confesses that atheism is his religion when he chooses to use the word devout to describe his dedication to his religion of atheism. So all this talk about how you all are non-religious is not strictly true. You all are VERY religious in your commitment to atheism. You fight tooth and nail against anyone who does not subscribe to your religion of atheism.Anyways, you listen very close to people who watched 5 minutes of me coding and sum up all of my coding by that 5 minutes. What a joke. I can probably code in circles around them but if I don't use their preferred spacing or variables naming paradigms or their preferred IDE, I must be a bad coder. It is really stupid the reasons you get when you have them elaborate on why they thing your coding is bad. One guy said its because when I compiled, there were TONS of errors the compiler listed. Well in the section he alluded to, I had let the compiler find all my undeclared variables which I prefer to declare at the end after I'm done coding and I declare them as global variables at the top of the source file at the end. The compiler shows me all the undeclared ones and I declare them then during the start of the compiling and testing phase after I'm done with my coding session. This is a personal preference. It is more efficient to me. But this random guy felt it indicated how error prone my coding was! If he had continued to watch, he would have seen that after I finished declaring all the variables, there were ZERO errors. The code ran perfectly with no bugs despite it being hours and hours of coding hundreds of lines of bug free code. Yet he walked away thinking I code buggy code. So go ahead and listen to the people who watched 5 minutes of me coding and judge I suck at it. It is so foolish really. Acting like children.You say "your hilariously inept attempts at mechanics" --- prove it. Nobody has demonstrated a single example of this claim. You are throwing out nonsense here. Just being dishonest and mean spirited. It's ugly. you are wicked.You say "who lives in a fantasy world of make-believe and miracles" --- speak for yourself. You believe we evolved from ooze that magically turned into people over a LONG LONG TIME. Pure fantasy and religious quackery you atheists invented. It's shameful really. Life from non-life is not proven but your faith in your atheism assures you its doable. Pathetic.You say "I am just one voice out of many, but I'm exercising mine to tell you to fuck off now, and take your pathetic fantasy world with you." --- I guarantee this is against forum rules. You can't be any more rude and uncivilized than this. This guy is acting like a demon for real. Wicked foolish behaving individual right here.@KerimFYou say "Sin... sin...!!! is there someone here who can define the word 'sinning'." --- yes. Sinning is failing to do the good you know to do. Sinning is also failing to listen to God. Sinning is doing bad. There is unknowingly sinning by accident and there is willlful sinning done with full knowledge which is pure evil. I don't do that latter at all anymore. I love and listen to God instead.You say "In my vocabulary, a human sins whenever he hurts, for one reason or another and in one way or another, another human." --- that's a poor definition. it can be true in many cases, but there's too many exceptions. Like if I tell someone cussing out their boss in front of the staff was immature and unprofessional and this hurts their feelings, I did not sin by hurting their feelings. Sometimes the truth hurts. Etc. There's MANY ways hurting others is the loving thing to do. The Bible says faithful are the wounds of a friend.Faithful wounds hurt but hurt for your own good because they love you.@xrunnerYou say "Then why are you posting and hosting your images on a love doll forum" --- they have a section called the inventors corner which is basically dedicated to people coming up with ways to add AI and robotics to their love dolls. It also is dedicated to techniques in making realistic silicone skin DIY. As well as the care and maintenance of human sized dolls. It dawned on me that a humanoid robot, particularly one with realistic skin made of silicone, is exactly the same thing as they are trying to do and so despite me thinking sex with dolls or robots or w/e is sinful, I found that their goals and research is in alignment with my own goals and research on most things relating to the robotics part and AI part of bringing silicone that is fashioned as human skin to life by way of technology. Their forum is extremely active and so despite me being against alot of the sexualization of dolls that goes on there, I decided it would be a good place to share my project and get feedback on it. So it, along with this forum, are places I share updates and discuss it. Forums that are active communities are rare and so the best one can do is find active forums that are at least overlapping with my project in the subject matter. I share my project updates on as many active forums as I can. These two are just two of many others. Some forums that are the MOST on topic of what I'm doing, like humanoidable.com, are completely dead with no active user base. So ones that may tend to be a bit less on topic but have significant overlap tend to be where I can get the most feedback and visibility.@MK14You say relating to my project also being shared on the doll forum - "Wow, what on earth is this thread really about then? Technically speaking, that is." --- I already stated this throughout the thread. Just because I shared my project on a forum where people are also making humanoid robots but some intending to have sex with their creations does not mean that I suddenly must necessarily therefore intend to have sex with my creations as you seem to infer. I have plainly stated that mine is not a sex bot. None of the robots I make do I plan to have sex with nor do I even plan to make realistic genitalia for them. They are for doing chores, manufacturing, doing sports, etc. Not for ANY sexual purposes. Because I think that's sinful.@KimYou say "The doll thing! Never noticed the URL. Oh man, now that's some funny stuff." --- not sure what's so funny about it. Unless you are inferring I just got caught with my hand in the cookie jar, secretly planning to use my robots for sexual purposes while play acting like they are not for those purposes. If that is what you are suggesting, you are in error once again. Just like you were in error when you cussed at me for defending God and the Bible in your blind hatred for God. The people on this forum like you and others are proving to be mainly just heathen pagans. Not followers of God who trust and obey God and read and obey the Bible like I do. So as far as I'm concerned, the sinners on the doll forum are just as worthy of seeing and commenting on my robot project as the sinners on eev blog. One sinner isn't more worthy of discussing robots than another sinner. All sinners shall have their part in the Lake of Fire according to the Bible. I hope you all repent though and the sooner the better. God's ways are best. Just obey Him. I'd appreciate if you stop suggesting I'm lying about my robot being for non-sexual purposes. You have no evidence of that and it is mere evil speculations that are unfounded and unproven.@XenaYou say "I think Larry's got some explaining to do. It's all become a lot more like "Wonderworld")." --- I think you meant to say Westworld. I've seen the show. But as I said before above, a roboticised sex doll and a robot like the terminator are both the same thing except one may be created with sex as one intended use case and another may be made with sex as a non-intended use case. My robots are made with sex as a non-intended use case. But the roboticists making sex capable robots are my colleagues even if they have sexual motivations I don't share. We are both creating realistic humanoid robots after all. So we can certainly both benefit by sharing notes you see.AT BEST you could make the argument that perhaps a Christian should not be consorting with those sinners. But the people here are sinners too I'm noticing. Most people on earth are unless they become a true living saint like me. And that is VERY rare to find. Most people refuse to stop sinning. The Bible does not say to never eat with sinners. It says to refuse to eat with anyone who professes to be a follower of Jesus but has sexual sin in their life. It says to not even eat with such a person. It says if you were to never eat with anyone who has sexual sin in their life period, then you'd have to go out of this world. So as long as I'm in this world, I'll be dealing with sinners and seeing them all as wicked, I don't see the logic of writing off the sex doll sinners but warmly embracing the eev blog sinners. Both sex doll forum sinners and eev blog forum sinners can see my project and give feedback. I will be kind to both groups and not see one as better sinners than the others. I will treat both groups respectfully and call them both to read the Bible and obey it while also sharing my project with them. This seems best in my eyes.Next, you might say well what about the sexual imagery on that forum. Aren't Christians supposed to not see that? Well, for some weak in the area of lust, they would be advised not to go there because that forum could cause them to lust. But for someone who has truly gained victory over all lust in their life like myself, who is pure in that area, I, like Jesus, am able to see a woman with all purity and not lust after her just because of her form or comeliness. I can view her as a daughter or mother with all purity. I have trained my heart in this. So seeing some dolls photographed lewdly has not caused me to lust nor sin in any ways. I am able to visit that site to learn about making humanoid robots and share my own project without sinning. I would not advise anyone go there unless they have great self control over their eyes and heart and total purity and victory over lust. it is definitely a place people could fall into lust if they are not prepared and victorious in that department.@SteveYou say "@artbyrobot, you're even more of a moron than I thought!" --- please, EVERYONE, note this language. I have been respectful but I am being talked to abusively. Bear that in mind when you say you think I am deserving of being banned. You should not EVER suggest this. It is unjust to say it. I have done nothing worthy of ban. Steve is worthy of a ban if you ask me but he probably behaves great to anyone who hates God like he does. Bible obeyers are probably the only ones who get this type of abuse from Steve.You say " You think turning a bearing into a pulley by holding little discs of plastic either side with thread counts as an INVENTION??!!" --- yes and no. It can be considered inventing a process of manufacture of a pulley. However, I would not say it means I invented the concept of a pulley or of using a bearing in the construction of a pulley. Your suggestion that I implied this is carried out in bad faith and is malicious and insincere. I am convinced you are just being mean spirited and a mocker who is behaving completely dishonestly right now. I hope other readers are not taking your nonsense seriously. It is pathetic. Don't be dumb enough to buy into these lies everyone.You say "All of the vids proceed with glacial slowness, which clearly reflects the speed of his thinking and is why, after 10 years of development, he's got three-fifths of fuck all to show for it." --- While I agree I may think a bit slower than some, I think I think reasonably faster than most and come up with solutions rather swiftly. I have great creativity and am a great problem solver. I have made many inventions and come up with solutions readily enough. The main reasons for my slow development are lack of time to dedicate to it and long breaks from it. Secondary reasons include realizing hobby servos or metal geared servos are too loud and having to start over on the electronics and motor choices on account of that. Or realizing brushed dc motors don't cut it and having to start over on the electronics with BLDC motors instead because of that. Or realizing commercial power supplies or motor controllers don't cut it and learning how to make my own from scratch with no EE background as a big tangent. Or learning state of the art AI sucks and having to develop a viable path and plan for my own AGI from scratch as a giant tangent. All of these MASSIVE hurdles I had to cross involved thousands of hours of research, note taking, and planning to overcome.And yet you say "having nothing to show for it". --- I disagree. You are focusing on the portion of the iceberg visible above water - IE how much visible progress on the physical robot you can see. What you are not acknowledging in this assessment of progress is the thousands of hours of necessary education I underwent in that 10 year period. Gaining a working knowledge in many areas of advanced AI, mechanics, EE, artificial skin, and on and on it goes. Even metal working and blacksmithing. It really just goes on and on and on. 3d printing. Just all kinds of stuff I have a massive working knowledge in now. That I did not have prior to that 10 year period. And you call all that education zero progress but its not. You also overlook hundreds of hours of CAD I have bird in hand as well as thousands of lines of code done for the AI stuff. And the electronics prototyping work I have done you also overlook. Both power supplies and motor controllers all full custom high end. So yeah you are WAY WAY WAY off here in this assessment.@SteveYou say "No engineering to be found" --- that is just a HUGE lie. Developing a Archimedes pulley system is engineering. Developing custom motor controllers is engineering. Developing artificial ligaments is engineering. This thread and project is PACKED FULL of engineering. So you are just a flat out liar. And clown (in your behavior of late and disrespectful manner of late).You say "He got a bit near the knuckle when he said cancer was God punishing you for sinning" --- if you are so devout at atheism then why would you care what someone says about God if God doesn't exist. You are just a walking oxymoron. The Bible teaches God sends diseases as a punishment for sin. Is cancer a disease? yes. So can sin be a possible cause according to the Bible? yes. So your anger over this fact is unfounded and ridiculous.@mechatrommerYou say "sex robot is one natural after effect of it imho, supply and demand I don't think there's any problem with it" --- well I don't think xrunner necessarily has a problem with sex robots but does have a problem with Artbyrobot making sex robots on the down low while pretending sex robots are sinful and acting like he's against it which would make him a hypocrite and showing off how Artbyrobot is posting his project on a sex doll forum would expose him in theory as having ulterior motives related to sexual use of his robots in theory according to xrunner. However, what xrunner did not consider is that posting a robot project on a robotics subforum of the doll forum does not necessarily mean that artbyrobot has intentions of using his robots for sexual purposes as can be falsely assumed by his posting his project there. In fact, I will say that I hesitated posting the project there for a long time because I didn't like the sexual subject matter often focused on in that site. However, I just wasn't getting much of any feedback at all on the conventional robotics forums so finally decided to post there despite my reservations about the overarching group focus on sex with rubber dolls. The amount of robotics discussion there and research and development on that front was just too much to pass up as a source of research material and colleague searching. Having colleagues to share notes with is pretty vital IMO to fast tracking success and is a luxury. Also the fact that place is so active was such a huge draw because posting my project on some dead corner of the internet it will never be seen accomplishes little to nothing productive. Rather go where the people are to get feedback.@kimYou say "Now, I can see how artbyrobot got there. It's a pretty natural place to look if you're designing the most realistic human looking robot." --- exactly. Literally who else is focusing on realism and robotics for human appearance. The intersection of that and what I am planning is undeniable. And the sources of information on realistic silicone skin are very sparse on the internet still. Alot of it is paywalled by workshops run by Hollywood special effects guys looking to make a buck. There's not much free information about making silicone skin aside from the doll forum from what I found. Although little by little YouTube is getting more and more makeup and special effects free videos so that's nice. But they weren't around much 7 or 8 years ago. It's getting better now.You say "But again, he'd be viewing what's essentially pornography by being a member of a forum" --- I agree and disagree. When I walk into the men's locker room at the gym, I see countless naked men most not even wearing a towel. I don't view nudity in this context as sexual because I'm there to work out and not look at the men. They aren't there looking to seduce (well most aren't I think). So context matters. if I go there to research humanoid robots, I have a reason that is valid to be there. So its not the same as casually going and watching porn for the sake of watching porn. You'd have to have a good reason to justify seeing some things that COULD cause you to lust in your heart and thereby commit adultery in your heart and in so doing put yourself on the pathway straight to hell. In this case I have a good reason to be there. I of course have to be very careful while there and very serious and sober minded and guarded so that I ensure I don't lust after some of the photos on there. I will say this: I am sure Jesus could make a delivery of some homemade chairs and tables to a sex doll factory and would not lust. But what he'd see in that factory could cause someone to lust but Jesus would not fall for it. So also can any saint be exposed to some sexual imagery in the course of going about their business and not sin despite the exposure. We are prudent to LIMIT exposure and be very guarded when exposed, but exposure in and of itself is not a sin unless we lust when exposed. That is where self control comes into play and guarding the heart with all diligence comes into play.You say I'm an arrogant, self righteous person" --- I disagree. You as a sinner and God hater are not qualified to make that assessment anyways. The Bible says a spiritual man judges all things but can be rightly judged by no man (or woman of course). So to be self righteous is to be a sinner who only pretends to be righteous to get applause from others while secretly is still sinning like the rest. Can you prove I'm still sinning as you infer by this label you unrighteously ascribed to me? No you can't. It's yet another false accusation and that's a sin in itself from you. You say I'm arrogant. I disagree. To submit to God and obey Him in all things is a humble thing to do. That's what I do at all times. So that proves I'm not arrogant. You calling me arrogant with zero evidence to back it up is wicked of you.You say "its laughable hypocrisy and deserving of mockery when they are caught red handed like that." --- I disagree in part. Sure, if you could prove my posting my project on that site was indicative of my plans to have sex with my robots, then surely that would be hypocritical. But posting a robot project on a subforum of that site dedicated to robotic inventions for humanoids is far from being caught red handed necessarily. There is nothing sinful in sharing my project there as you infer may be the case or rather suggest is necessarily the case for a Christian. It is not the case necessarily. Also, in my post there, I emphasize the same commitment to purity and Bible following and obeying and I condemn publicly the use of robots for sex there on that site. That indicates boldness in my faith and fearlessness at being scorned by the populace there. It also plainly sets me apart there as one who does not approve of a main theme they have on that site. This makes my intentions clear and washes my hands before all. They were warned. Beyond that, any need for me to not post there is non-existent in my sight.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 05:03:46 am
content: Calling it now: this is a new Terry Davis but instead of a functional OS it's some kind of hyper-focus on a completely unachievable humanoid robot.OP: seek help; I see that you mentioned family being unhappy about this, and I suspect it has nothing to do with the project itself.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 05:11:42 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 amHmmm... Interesting:Quote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 05:54:45 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 amActually, I think that is a VERY good answer!I hadn't perceived the situation like that myself. I suppose I'm (analogy) like someone who can fluently speak more than twenty different foreign languages, and can learn a new one, in at least a basic sense, over a weekend. (end of analogy).Which makes it hard or very hard for me to perceive the plight of others, who would struggle, to change operating systems.On the other hand, in the same way, if a person wanted or needed to work at an embassy in a foreign country, and had a role there, that involved meeting lots of different people. Being able to cope with various foreign languages, would be an important skill (with some exceptions).Similarly, wanting to do a very big Electronics and Software project, needs flexibility, to cope with a wide range of electronics and software stuff. Otherwise, the task could be made a lot harder.In other words. Your explanation, would perhaps be acceptable, for a sixty year old, Grandmother, who just wants to send some emails and browse the web, occasionally. They could stick with Windows.But, serious Embedded projects, can need serious tools, to get the job done well and efficiently.Eventually, the limitations of Windows 7, could catch up with your project, and prevent you from easily, moving the project forward.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:04:54 am
content: @uer166You say "Calling it now: this is a new Terry Davis but instead of a functional OS it's some kind of hyper-focus on a completely unachievable humanoid robot." --- well I am a Christian and I am making an OS. I also am making a robot but it is achievable. I am not sure calling me a new Terry Davis is applicable since from what I heard, he had some mental health problems. I have zero mental health problems as my mom and wife can attest - and they are both mental health professionals with degrees in it.You say "OP: seek help;" --- Considering that I have a wife and mother who are both degree'd mental health professionals who I am in regular contact with who attest I have zero mental health issues, and considering that I am walking in the Holy Spirit with power from God to overcome sin, I already have God's help and already have a clean bill of mental health. So any further "help" as it pertains to my mental state is not really needed IMO. Can you prove I have a mental illness that requires treatment as you infer here? No. Really it is just a petty and immature insult by you. Pathetic really. Just because someone tries to build a cool project that you think is too hard to pull off does not mean they are mentally ill. People who actually have mental illnesses might find your behavior here offensive. How cruel of you and inconsiderate.You say "I see that you mentioned family being unhappy about this, and I suspect it has nothing to do with the project itself." --- what I said was that I gave up talking to them about it years ago because they find it boring. If I did say they were unhappy about it, and I don't recall saying that, it would mainly be a very mild and fleeting occasional unhappiness about it stemming from other activities they'd rather see me getting done because they personally benefit more from the other activity than from this one. So a form a selfish disappointment, not genuine selfless disappointment that counts. So none of them think its a total waste of time. Heck even my dad who thinks it will never happen and is too hard to do (says the guy who doesn't know how to "work a computer" - unqualified much?) -- so even he who naysays it admits it is a great learning experience and I am benefiting from the knowledge I glean during its pursuit. So even he isn't purely and strictly unhappy with it through and through per se.@KimKim cites these claims I made as proving I'm arrogant in her eyes:Claim #1: I say "First, I think I have succeeded as evidenced by my becoming a living saint who no longer sins (willfully)." --- I assume Kim's issue with this statement is my calling myself a saint. Perhaps she may have some catholic background and she considers a saint to be a title relegated only to heroes of catholic church history and is a title only placed upon them as a post death honor. So my calling myself a saint can be viewed as arrogant. Well I counter this with the following: in the Bible Paul calls the members of the church of Ephesus saints. He begins with "to the saints of the church of Ephesus". So Biblically speaking, anybody following God fully and obeying God fully is a saint. Catholic traditional usage of that term as a honorary title is a more modern twist to the word saint and I am not using the word in that context. Saint then is a word that has different meanings in different contexts. So my usage of the word is not the Catholic usage and so therefore is not arrogant by any means. In fact some churches regularly refer to the members as saints. Like some churches will say hey are you going to the get together saturday with the saints to celebrate Sarah's birthday? Saints is a common lingo in some churches I attend. So I am off the hook then and proved Kim is judging unrighteously on claim #1.Claim #2: I say "Also, as a saint, I am convinced I am unable to be deceived by evil like you suggest. God would help me see through the deception IMO." --- So here Kim supposes that usage of the word saint here is arrogant which I've already proven false. Next, my belief I can't be deceived by evil she MIGHT think is arrogant but only if she ignores the second sentence where I give God all the credit for that. Which then is humble to say. It's like saying I'm not afraid of getting a computer virus because the developer of the anti-virus software I recently installed is a genius. That's not arrogant to praise the one protecting you from harm. Deceptions are called poisonous darts in the Bible. The Bible teaches that the armor of God protects us from these. He gets the credit for the anti-poison armor so that's not arrogant to trust God like this about this. So claim #2 also proves Kim judged unjustly.Claim #3: I say "God sends the saints BACK to THIS earth to rule for 1k years. During that time we are with living people on this same earth and these living people are still just mortals in mortal bodies but the saints will have immortal bodies like angels." --- During this future event called the Millennial Reign of Christ by theologians which the Bible teaches all about, yes, that is how it works according to my understanding of the Bible. This is a future event and anyone who dies victorious over this world, the devil, and sin is qualified to join in this millennial reign as one of the co-rulers. I claim that I am striving to attain to this privilege and on my way there if I endure faithfully to the end of my life as a holy man of God who refuses to sin willfully. This is not a arrogant thing to say at all. God gives a carrot on the end of the stick and I say I'm on my way to getting that carrot if I persist. What exactly is arrogant about striving to obey God and get rewarded for doing so? This is ridiculous to see ANY arrogance here so once again Kim failed to judge righteously.Claim #4: "But the people here are sinners too I'm noticing. Most people on earth are unless they become a true living saint like me. And that is VERY rare to find." --- So here I point out the obvious: that many people here have been openly admitting to hating God and the Bible and even devoting themselves to the sin of atheism. I rightly said then that they are sinners. Others have been cruel and mocking and have demonstrated zero tact or regard for my feelings while coming out against my project and dreams. While perhaps not openly admitting to being atheists, they proved they are not saints by behaving sinfully and cruelly toward me without a cause. So then they proved themselves to be sinners. The Bible says you shall know a tree by its fruit. If people behave rottenly, they are not a saint. And if you are not a saint you are a sinner. There is no third option. Either you follow God entirely and are kind and loving or not. That simple according to the Bible. (Not to say that sinners are never kind or loving conditionally speaking). I also had a poster openly state that most people on this forum are not religious. If we define religious as being madly in love with God and the Bible and not religious as being indifferent about God and the Bible or worse, really openly hateful toward God and the Bible, then yes, to be non-religious necessarily makes you a sinner if this is our working definition of religious. So these are the basis points by which I claimed the people here are sinners. All just, reasonable, logical, and Biblically sound. None of these basis points were sinful in their observations by me nor were indicative of arrogance even remotely. So if any part of that statement was a red flag to Kim, given all facts, then she once again proves her unjust judgement against me.On to the next part: I said: "Most people on earth are  unless they become a true living saint like me. And that is VERY rare to find." --- once again, this is completely Biblical. If you obey God and follow Him completely, even for a season of life, during that season, you ARE a saint as defined by the Bible (not the catholic church's honorary post mortem title). The whole Bible teaches that most people are sinners. It says narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it. FEW find it. But BROAD is the way that leads to destruction and many go thereon. So there aren't many people on earth who get onto the narrow path and even those that do get on (start following God completely and faithfully with all of their hearts) - most people who do this don't persist in it and fall off the wagon and end up right back onto the broad path again. Regardless of how many times they have found the narrow path, as often as they leave that narrow path they cease to be a saint and go right back to being a sinner. So finding people who are CURRENTLY all in for God COMPLETELY with ZERO sins in their life that they haven't forsaken is rare to find. The Bible teaches this and basic observation living on this earth for a long while affirms this. So nothing about this judgement was arrogant either. AT BEST, again, Kim would have to say she just doesn't like the use of the term saint but again, that term carries different meanings if you are catholic etc. So again, I am justified once more and this claim proved Kim is not judging righteously nor justly.Now, what if Kim just thinks its impossible to stop sinning and instead obey God. And so my thinking I've done this is arrogant to her. I disagree on both fronts. First, it is possible to stop sinning or else Jesus would not have commanded it nor would Paul and Peter have commanded it and John have commanded it. The Bible teaches we can stop. Anything is possible for those who believe and stopping sinning is one possible thing available to those who believe. Also, note that I speak of stopping knowingly sinning. I still may commit sins of ignorance unknowingly. I am not perfect in knowledge. So to stop doing all the stuff I know is wrong is NOT that hard. If you love Jesus you WILL keep His commands it says. I'm doing that now. Doing so is supported all over the Bible that's just one verse of many. So there is nothing arrogant about stopping sinning and testifying to that victory and encouraging others to stop as well. That's just being obedient and can be done humbly. One cannot be prideful and stop sinning because pride is a sin. So one has to be humble to stop sinning which I've done. So even if all of this is an issue for Kim, I've still demonstrated its an unjust judgement against me once again.@MK14You say "Actually, I think that is a VERY good answer!" -- thanks for saying so! Rare to find a positive thing said about anything I write around here so that's refreshing.You say "Eventually, the limitations of Windows 7, could catch up with your project, and prevent you from easily, moving the project forward." --- I doubt it. We'll see though. So far it has been rock solid and has been compatible with everything I need in terms of hardware and software so far.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:05:32 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 amBut that is a contradiction.At the end, you seem to say:"Because I think that's sinful."In which case, you should have absolutely nothing to do with such websites.Analogy:If you think Fox hunting is horrible and shouldn't ever be done.Then posting your stuff, on a major Fox Hunting website, would not really make much sense.I.e. You are hence, using and apparently advertising the wares of a website, that you disapprove of and think is bad.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:12:19 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 06:04:54 amI don't think that is necessarily, a bad thing, at the moment. Sometimes, in big projects, it can be best, to move on to more sophisticated, complicated, and sometimes a lot more expensive tools and things, at later stages of the project, which can be alright.E.g. Early on, a cheap and low specification oscilloscope, with two channels and few features, may be fine, for quite a while.But later on in the project, a much higher specification and performing (e.g. bandwidth) oscilloscope, can become almost essential, as the hardware design becomes more and more complicated, using higher end stuff, and much higher frequencies, to get the job done.

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:44:17 am
content: @MK14You say "But that is a contradiction." --- I disagree. I can think that having sex with robots is sinful and I can still talk to people making robots for sexual purposes in order to #1: encourage them to repent of doing so and #2: exchange technical notes on the non-sexual aspects of this technological subject matter for mutual benefit. Both of these 2 reasons to dialogue with them are logical and upright.You say "you should have absolutely nothing to do with such websites." --- I disagree. I've laid out all the reasons I personally benefit from the information there and those justify my dialoguing there with others. What makes you think I should not dialogue there? I already went through in a prior post about how I warned them what they are doing is sinful, which I could not have done without going there and registering to post. And that in itself could turn some sinners from their sinful ways - a great thing. I also can be a good example to them. Showing a better way to live and behave. Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors and He was criticized for this. They felt he should never have anything to do with those people. But he just said it is the sick that need a doctor and brushed off this criticism. He spent time with the sinners to teach them right from wrong and encourage them to be good and listen to God again. He wanted to help them get back on the right path. So also I am justified in doing on that site and this one. That site is more openly sinful but this site has proven to be sinful with all of its atheism promotion for example.You say "If you think Fox hunting is horrible and shouldn't ever be done. Then posting your stuff, on a major Fox Hunting website, would not really make much sense." --- not necessarily. If they had a section called "hunting equipment inventors corner" and you liked hunting other animals but just not foxes, you could use that section of their website to preach about how horrible fox hunting is and exchange advice about hunting other animals besides foxes since you hunt too and learn about hunting inventions that can help you in your non-fox related hunting. Perfectly reasonable. Should definitely be done.Also, in my view, evangelism should be done at things like Satan-Con and even cult gathering places and nightclub waiting lines and redlight districts. You bring the gospel to the sinners. This is commonly practiced in real life so why not also apply that logic to online evangelism? Sometimes I even think a big part of God letting me do this project and publicly share it is for evangelistic reasons. I would happily go mingle on a atheism website or satan worship website as that would be a good place to dialogue with sinners about the gospel.You say "You are hence, using and apparently advertising the wares of a website, that you disapprove of and think is bad." --- I disagree. Technically the site is dedicated to dolls firstly and that extends to include those who enjoy dolls for non-sexual reasons. There are those on that site who are not sexually interested in dolls. Supposing enough people like me went there and convinced everybody there that sex dolls are sinful and everyone there repented and the site became dedicated to nonsexual use of dolls. That would reform the site and it would still be a doll forum but no longer sexual at all. We would have cleaned up the site. So then the site in itself is just a public meeting place. Saints in the Bible went into public meeting places and taught Biblical principles to the masses and called people to repentance from sin and talked about what sins they see going on and how those sins are going to get people punished by God and should be stopped immediately. These gathering places were full of heathen who would often stone the saint preaching to them. But the saint would go nonetheless. I see this as much the same thing but online instead of in person public meeting places. Also rather than ONLY being there for preaching reasons I'm there also to learn about robots and teach about robots etc.You also said "and you are advertising the wares of a website". --- I agree and disagree. Jesus went to gatherings of sinners to call them to repentance and talk with them about God and the Bible. His attendance would add to the total number of people there and so you could argue that addition to the numbers there could draw even more crowds and advertise that gathering of sinners which could cause more people to join the sinners and take part in sins there. But you could also argue that he did more good being there and calling them to repentance than just avoiding being seen there to avoid at all cost any concerns that his being there could be seen as advertising that group somehow. Lets say I advertised that group because 1 in 10k people found out I post my project there and therefore went there to see what I wrote on their forum. I just brought traffic to that site. Oops! That's not good! BUT, 100% of those people are addicted to porn most likely and if not, supposing they were a saint like me, they would not sin while there most likely or would avoid going at all if they are still weak in the area of lust and so needed to just avoid that place to protect their eyes. Fine. So I don't think I can be rightly blamed for anybody sinning directly. God forbid. But supposing they just went directly to my thread there and read it. They would see me calling people to repentance there and calling out sexual use of robots or robot dolls a sin according to the Bible. Then even that person may repent if they had any such intentions. So I could have converted even them from their sinful ways.I want to add this: I do not tell people I post on that site nor do I talk about that site outside of that site generally (it coming up here being an exception of course). I do not tell people to go to that site at all. So in no direct or obvious way do I advertise that site. The fact that site happens to host the images of my project photos for updates is just because it happened to be convenient to upload there and they have fast servers and so they host the images and I link to them off site. 99% of people would not notice the link url because it is hidden unless you right click the image I posted and copy url in your browser, paste it into a text field, and read it. Then you would have to investigate said URL. NOBODY did this until xrunner randomly did it and brought it to everyone's attention. So I still don't see hosting pictures on their server as directly advertising for them. And even now with this becoming outed here, I have told everyone to not go there unless they are a saint who has overcome lust of the eyes because if they go there they might lust with their eyes. So that is the opposite of advertising that is warning against.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:36:25 am
content: You are expressing reasons, why it seems to be alright, to go on possibly problematic websites. Although I still disagree with you, I can see that you have at least thought about it, possibly at great length.We don't have to fully agree, on everything. I can partly or somewhat, see your point of view.Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 06:44:17 amBut online forums and other communities, usually have rules, regulations and moderators/administrators.If you persistently, do such things, it can annoy people, which can cause complaints to be raised and could cause the moderators of any website, to take action.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:38:26 am
content: Sorry, I couldn’t resist not to commentQuote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 amYou agree or not, you will, at best, program your robot to be, as possible, an exact replica of your robotic nature. For example, your robotic (material) nature leaded you to believe that you are made/created to worship/obey God (the One Will/Power behind our existence) as if God is like a needy selfish earthly king looking for followers and slaves on a tiny planet while it surfs in the vast universe! This image of God (one selfish supernatural ultimate king) was good for our ancient ancestors who did not evolve yet to get the spiritual image of God which cannot be seen by our material nature (limited by time and space). Humans, before Jesus’ arrival, were like the kids of humanity to which truths had to be presented in simple symbolic ways (as loving parents teach their beloved little kids, as the tale of Adam and Eve for example). Of course, a human has the right to think and believe like a kid does, during his entire life. Fortunately, the material humans (very important in serving the material world/life), as all other zillion living things, will simply return back, at their end of service (death), to the state of void (state before birth). And, like it is non-sense for a robot maker to punish his robot for any reason, the One Will/Power behind our creation has no reason too to punish, in any way, humans (also preprogrammed as robots). In brief, at the end, there will be no losers (for free, life was given, for free, it is taken). There is just a few winners (surely not to exist on our tiny mortal planet, Earth).Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 amYou mean you (unlike a robot) were able to perceive a soul in you. As you know, our living flesh needs bread (and the like) to survive; did you also discover what your soul needs to survive? Please don’t tell me by obeying God because even an atheist obeys God by following/executing his preprogrammed instincts (see next).Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 amWell, it is not your choice not to have sex with lots of hot women.Your instincts also warn youthat you will face various serious troubles if you do it; troubles in your own body and with many people around you. Yes, warnings are also included in our instincts (the list of these warnings is rather long).Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 amYes, a human (unlike a man-made robot) has the freedom to oppose his preprogrammed instructions; as his instincts of survival, superiority, selfishness and applying justice/rules on others, to name a few. He can do it simply by loving even his enemies (real enemies are usually around him), by being humble while he has all the means to prove his superiority and be a master, by seeing other’s interest as being an extension of his own and by not judging anyone. Therefore, if you feel a real joy in opposing such instincts, you can be sure you have a soul though its realm is not on earth where one has to hate his enemies, tries his best to even control the entire world, sees his interests above all of others and finds clever ways to convince others that his imposed rules/justice is for their good.Have a nice day.Kerim

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 07:54:22 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 06:44:17 amI say, let not the self-righteous and highly judgemental lamb lie down with the perverts, lest he be tempted into their ways. You are not Jesus, but are subject to human weaknesses. Please run that one past your bible teachers.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 08:39:45 am
content: For instance, once I knew (I met personally) a man who insisted to obey 'his' God (be a saint?!) by marrying and divorcing legally as many times as his fortune afford. He used to believe that 'his' God is proud of him because he never lived a sexual adventure outside marriage. And the families of the girls he married/divorced were able to solve their financial problems by his generosity. Who has ears will hear.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 08:54:18 am
content: @ Artbyrobot(See what I did there? I'm not stripping out that whole word salad for a particular quote)Thank you for the correction. Yes Westworld,however I know what I typed, I just wanted to dismiss the notion that this thread is being created with AI.In your arrogance you attributed Strawman arguments to me that I'd not made just so that you could apply further rebuttal.I'm not really interested in your project, it is your project and you do it how you like. I like others don't think the realisation of some of your methods will be very good TBH, but pointing out the pitfalls seems to elicit rebuttal rather than discussion: my conclusions are that this thread was either intended as depository, (though then I wondered why you did this and not just start a blogger account?) Or, it is some elaborate troll.As for the sex doll connection, again, I don't care how you get your kicks or make your money, and it doesn't matter, provided you don't hurt anyone else in the pursuit of any personal proclivities. I wasn't aware that you had posted any external links with pictures, as my connection to the Internet isn't registered as being above the age of consent, (not a secret though, I'm 36). The thing that I find fascinating is that you use this word, sinful, but must have realised that this connection would have eventually been made.Your assessment of my tongue in cheek post was not correct, the only interest on my part is what kind of personality has created this thread, then metaphorically shot themselves in the foot, by bringing both sleeze¹ and religion² into it. I've concluded that the locus of your identity is external to you.Note¹ I don't have a problem with your being involved in the sex industry, if it helps keep the instances of abuse down then that's OK, it's a public service.Note² I've no problems with people following religion, it's good to have moral guidance, however where deluded people then use it to promote their own agenda, and claim the high ground of self bestowed pieties, it's a problem.Regards,X

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 09:00:38 am
content: Quote from: KerimF on October 07, 2024, 08:39:45 amThe biblical clarification for this Kerim, I'm sure you will know, is that once divorced you should not remarry...(I don't care, I just find it funny that self proclaimed saints always end up being exposed as charlatans.)Regards,X

author: Manul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 11:37:26 am
content: Quote from: artbyrobot on October 07, 2024, 04:20:55 amDon't call me liar, cause what I've seen is what I've told. Tell me, which particular video of yours we should watch? Which has substance, shows off skills and thought process and is a good representation of your coding?

author: artbyrobot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 11:47:19 am
content: Removed by admin, this forum is not the place to preach.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 11:48:48 am
content: Another derailing thread ........... endless lengthy explanations and almost provocations, if they are not already ??from @ArtbyIN NO WAYS THIS IS BENEFICIAL FOR EEV MEMBERS HERE, AND FORUM REPUTATION ....

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 12:22:46 pm
content: This is beyond a joke. Locked.This forum is not the place for these kinds of discussions. Breach of rule #5. If this behavior continues on this forum, people will be banned.