Line Conditioner Wiring - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: vidarr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 04:14:53 pm
content: This 120 VAC Power Conditioner has its transformer disconnected and it needs to be reconnected. My skill level isn't quite there yet to be 100% certain on the wiring, so I'd like advice please connecting wires. This should be pretty easy for an experienced person.I know where all the cut wires go except the transformer and one black wire. There is also a TVR 10271 thyristor that I am pretty sure where it goes; I'll get to that later.The pics will show all.edit: in the pic with the numbered black wires, the numbers are Only for the black wires.THANK YOU(Back story: Another device at my wife's lab that she needs fixed. All the parts are working. A guy cut the transformer off to replace it and it turned out it was good. He didn't put it back together. Brazil/Bolsonaro has cut, and is cutting, funding for the Universities. So, they don't have money to replace this (or pay me).)

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 04:26:05 pm
content: This does not worth your time...Just 2 cents of advice - IT WILL NOT PROTECT A THING..Use your time to get some better stuff (affordable)APC just bought Microsol ... the best line conditioners in Brazil.Very smart move they now have monopoly of both in BrazilGo to ex-Microsol site (now APC) search for an ISOLATED line conditioneraka MIE-G3 models - very affordable - they DO PROTECT YOUR LINEbasic stuff which I always recommend to every bad mains..they can protect your hardware from several eventsPaul

author: vidarr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 04:46:07 pm
content: So, this thing does nothing? It was used on non-critical equipment, a bio reactor for growing algae, like the heating device, or the lights for the incubation.They have zero money to buy a new one. The whole UFBA is shutdown because coronavirus, so everyone is at home. I have time to do this, but if the thing does nothing at all, I will just wire it to be an extension power strip bar.Thank You

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 09:10:50 pm
content: It looks like missing a major component. (like a transformer)....With something like this, I wouldn't guess on wiring. At least draw a partial circuit diagram and go from there. But to me, it really looks like it's missing a transformer.

author: TheMG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:31:12 am
content: This type of unit basically contains an auto-transformer with a few voltage taps, automatically selected to try to maintain the output voltage within a certain range as the input voltage goes up or down.Pretty much only useful in the rare case that you have a piece of equipment that is particularly sensitive to AC input voltage and have a poor quality electrical distribution system where the voltage fluctuates up and down too much depending on time of day.Such "power conditioners" have a very limited range in which they are able to step-up or step-down the voltage, and as it is based on relays selecting different taps on the transformer, they are slow to respond and won't do much or anything for short lived (less than a few seconds) voltage fluctuations.The unit also contains MOVs for some transient surge protection but nothing more than what you'd find in an average surge protected power bar.So basically these "power conditioners" are useless in over 90% of use cases.

author: TheMG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:37:48 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on March 19, 2020, 09:10:50 pmMy understanding is the OP has the transformer and intends to wire it back in, even though it's not shown in any of the pictures.Looks like one of the relays was also removed from the PCB and bypassed using a glob of solder. That would need to be replaced as well, otherwise, well, this unit is even more useless.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 10:48:53 am
content: Quote from: vidarr on March 19, 2020, 04:46:07 pmAs far as I can see for the pictures this unit has no microprocessor.This design dates from 80s hardly 90s. Typical when uPs were tooexpensive for this. Not the case anymore.The board probably uses a comparator or similar thingto switch transformer wire taps. Not reliable for todayfast switching modules.If I were you ... I would ditch that board...Measure the wiring taps and select the best onefor your mains. With 2 options:- in BIVOLT units. I would rather try to operate at higher- in MONOVOLT units I would select the most capable TAP- and USE IT AS AN ISOLATOR ONLY.you can even try some modern post device likethose cheap line stabilizers - via the ISOLATED input.Alternative as I said is to buy a modern MICROP. basedline supervisor. Microsol (now APC) uses STM32 withdamn good firmware to supervise the mains events...including not voltage only but also WATTAGE in a veryclever arrange (see picture) which include opto coupledsensors as well as a high power PCB based SHUNT..Affordable uP based modern solution in this caseThis design handles more than 1.5KVA not even warm...Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 01:26:04 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 10:48:53 amFix typo (bad habit of using STM32 everywhere)This controller is indeed an 8-bit dedicated MCUwith a dedicated EDGE connector for servicesorry.Paul

author: vidarr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 01:15:44 pm
content: OK, Thank you guys.Paul, you convinced me plenty. I just have another question about our power here. When there is a storm, or a transformer blows, we go to "half phase". When this happens, some things can continue to run and others are not able, like my computer. For this bio reactor, it stays on, able to run on this "half phase". Does it need some kind of device you are talking about above to run better, smoother? Will it prevent damage from the power fluctuations?This "half phase" issue has always confused me. I can never get a good answer from anyone. You understand this more than anyone I ever talked with. Can you advise about this "half phase" and what it means for this equipment? Is it causing harm? Is it better to unplug? Is it like running a 220V grinding tool on 120V and it ruins the motor?If you can explain this I would truly appreciate it!Thanks!PS For those wondering about the transformer... I forgot to put its pic up.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 01:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: vidarr on March 21, 2020, 01:15:44 pmYou are welcomeQuote from: vidarr on March 21, 2020, 01:15:44 pmI can not say with 100% sure *WHY* because Brazilian territory is too vastand it does vary from point to point the way the mains power is delivered.we know how bad hard expensive is to deliver that in far regions...What I can tell you with 100% sure is the following:- We have regions where the mains is "fixed" at 120VAC- We have regions where the mains is "fixed" at 220VACOK. That said we all know power is delivered in 3 phases.In that case EACH PHASE contains that RMS voltage ...It is **VERY** common for several reasons .. to have deviceswhich be powered by 2 or 3 phases. They are not MONOPHASICthey are BI- ot TRI- phase devices.Now regions where the mains power fixed at 120VAC selldevices that can be powered by 2 phases**UNFORTUNATELY **A VERY BAD HABIT CALL THESE DEVICES 220V/240Vreferring that they REQUIRE 2x110 or 2x120 PHASES to function.The phase RMS voltage is still 120 but the device only worksif two phases of 120 are present - they don't even require the neutral.Now **REAL** 220/240 devices operate in SINGLE PHASEat that RMS mains grid.Under that bad terminology a 2xPHASE device in these areaswould be called or aliased as 440V . ...tendeu ?In both cases the device IS NOT RATED TO OPERATE ABOVE MAINS GRID.Under 2 phases but still requires the mains grid area voltage ratingThis is a very bad habit (and wrong) to alias those sales...eh isso.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 02:22:29 pm
content: before i got too busy let me put a last piece of jambo...Areas in Brazil with lightning storms are pretty severe.If you have such problem and you have IT or medicalequip. to maintain... you are in trouble.First the best piece of advice depending on HOW MUCHthe equip. costs (like antenna array, radio links..) youmay need to find the best guy to setup a proper "PARA-RAIO"Actually if the region is rural YOU DO NEED A GUY with lot ofpractical expertise in that area to ground the tower.Second piece:- spare money to buy a good ISOLATOR UNIT- a bit more to put a good line conditioner on that too- UPS 3rd option in series...The 3 items will hold the mains problemsand safe your hardware (medical or IT based)basic the core of the business ..They are required to be easily and affordable replaceablebecause they are the active folks for that job.Not your PSU or equip.Worth every cent.Paul

author: TheMG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 03:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: vidarr on March 21, 2020, 01:15:44 pmI guess that explains the missing relay... that transformer has only one tap.Even more useless, really. That means, depending on how it's wired and considering the small size of the transformer, the device can either boost or buck the output voltage by a very small amount only. It won't do anything against any serious voltage fluctuations.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 03:08:55 pm
content: 2xIt may be a small unit - but even so - that thingwill not protect against real mains surges.A modern cheap unit will do a better jobMOVs and some modern parts...

author: vidarr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 03:54:38 pm
content: Paul, thank you so much. I am always confused when working with the electrical engineers and mechanical engineers (I am an architect). I only know that some things require this phase, or the other, but there is No Way I could figure out why, or know which one where. I only knew the difference between 220/240 and 120/110 -- if an outlet says 220, do not plug in a 120 equipment or tool, and vice versa. None of them explained as good as you did right here. I have a way better understanding know. Thanks!

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:39:45 am
content: @ vidarrThere are those few times that electronics/electrical noobs and professionals need to reluctantly bin or scrap a piece of equipment, for too many reasons to list hereThis is one of those few timesFor your expectations, if it does not have a large, heavy isolated transformer in the metal box, it is useless and a no goIt looks like someone jacked the transformer out of it and left the dregs