Lecroy support versus Tek and Keysight. Tek/Keysight should step up to the plate - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 10:08:28 pm
content: I've been meaning to write this post for awhile now, and after repairing a Tek TDS784A CPU board today (see the repair boards), this finally prompted me to do so.It's no secret that Lecroy has slowly but surely been releasing schematics and service data for their older scopes such as the 93XX and LC series which are now about 20 years old or so.EDIT: I forgot to mention - a high-five to Lecroy and Sam from the Yahoo Lecroy group for this!!I think that it's high time that Tek and Keysight do the same for their respective 20 year old scopes such as the TDS68X, and TDS700 series (for Tek) and HP/Agilent 545XX 548XX series (for Keysight). I highly doubt that there is any real super-secret IP in scopes of this age... and if there is, it's buried in their custom hybrids/ASICs and A/D converters.Most, if not all of these scopes are now in the hobbyist domain. I know that Daniel from Keysight reads this board, and have never seen anyone from Tektronix around here (please correct me if I'm mistaken)So what up?This is a call to arms for those manufacturers who really support their customers (no matter how old the product!)Step up to the plate guys/gals!Sigelent/Rigol/whatever need not apply. Nobody expects anything from you, and that's exactly what we get.Jay

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 10:27:38 pm
content: For the TDS500/600/700 series there is the '520B component level service manual' which has shows at least the outline of how everything works. The CPU boards are very similar but have a different component arrangement.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2016, 10:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2016, 10:27:38 pmYes, I've seen that one (and I suspect that was leaked by Hakan from Yahoo Tekscopes group. But compare the ACQ boards and they're of no use at all; and minimal to no use use even for the CPU board.The HV board schematics (also from Hakan, I believe) are pretty much spot on.Thanks.Jay

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 05:27:06 am
content: Quote from: Jwalling on May 03, 2016, 10:08:28 pmAnd which are still repaired by LeCroy on a "best effort" basis.QuoteI doubt that Danaher lets any employee waste time on something mundane as a web forum. After all, DBS is all about efficiencyQuoteDon't hold your breath. Tek already struggles to properly support their current products, I doubt they care at all for hobbyists. And Keysight, while full of helpful people, often suffers from the 'very large enterprise' syndrome, i.e. documentation that is no longer needed might get destroyed/deleted.The other thing is that LeCroy scopes are mostly build from COTS parts (there are very few LeCroy proprietary components in it, aside from the ADC hybrids) because in these scopes a commodity CPU does all the processing. In Tek and HPAK scopes, proprietary ASICs are used for pretty much everything, and one of them dies then it's pretty much game over.Still, having schematics would be nice, especially for things like the power supply.QuoteWell, they don't even have proper maintenance manuals for most of their products, so I guess asking for proper service manuals with schematics would be a bit muchBut I agree, they do satisfy expectations.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 06:36:15 am
content: Keysight provides what info they can for the most part, but in a lot of cases they actually lost some of the original documentation in the HP-to-Agilent transition period. It never hurts to post an inquiry on their customer forum, as they have some very helpful employees who will go the extra mile for you.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 10:06:53 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 04, 2016, 05:27:06 amThey should. There's probably a lot of hobbyists at home that specify equipment in their workplace. Goodwill can go a long way...

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 11:10:21 am
content: Quote from: Jwalling on May 04, 2016, 10:06:53 amMaybe, but it's rare that they have a large influence over notable investments.In addition, a lot of hobbyists (especially older ones) have already fond memories of Tek scopes from the old analog scope days back then when Tek was the go-to brand for scopes. But even this hasn't helped much in the last 15 years or so where Tek's business has been in constant decline. And the simple reason for that decline is that Tek never managed to make the real step into a more and more digital world, and since the end of the analog scope era only came up with DSOs which were mediocre at best.QuoteApparently goodwill can't compensate for lack of attractive products.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 11:42:45 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 04, 2016, 11:10:21 amYou never know. Some hobbyists can be actually pros who happen to enjoy their work and they like to tinker at home as well, while other hobbyists can eventually graduate to professional status. There are some benefits to reap from being nice to your users, even when "your users" are using a Nth hand product from 20 years ago. Which, anyway, is your product.The thing is: is it actually expensive for LeCroy to offer that kind of support? Are they losing money by being nice to the members of the Yahoo users group and "liberating" software keys for old models? I don't know how many high end oscilloscopes they can sell in a year, but if their support has at least some influence on one sale of a high end scope every year, I guess the "ROI" as business people like to say, has been very good.I've always said that scientific calculators helped the old HP to become the brand of choice for so many engineers. Having a place in your shirt pocket is a very valuable beach head!

author: pxl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 12:11:01 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on May 04, 2016, 10:06:53 amI even did not get quotes from my official Keysight distributor at all, because I am a hobbyist. (Okay, the main reason was, as he said, that I was not willing to give my address in prior. So it seems, I won't have any Keysight devices in future. I am so sad.)

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 12:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on May 04, 2016, 11:42:45 amMaybe. But would you pretty much bet your career by recommending or buying what very likely will be an inferior product for your employer just because the manufacturer is 'nice' to hobbyists? If your answer is 'yes' then I can tell you that it's unlikely you'd be put into position to make such decisions in the future.If you buy for work your decisions should be based on product qualities, manufacturer support (for now, not for when the product is obsolete!), and price. "Being nice to hobbyists" has zero relevance here.QuoteYou're right, and don't get me wrong, I think it's great if a manufacturer is supportive towards hobbyists. But my point is that this only works to your advantage if everything else is up to scratch, i.e. your product portfolio and the support you provide in the main support phase. If Keysight would decide tomorrow to never ever support any hobbyist tomorrow, do you really believe that would put a notable dent in their sales? As long as the products are as good as they are and the support is as good as it is, stopping support for hobbyists wouldn't matter, and businesses would still buy tons of Keysight gear.The reason companies like Keysight, LeCroy and (to some extend) R&S are friendly towards hobbyists is that many of their employees are engineers themselves, they are often quite proud working for their employer, and want to spread a positive image of the company they're working for. And as long as management doesn't put in artificial blocks they'll continue to be helpful.Tek has obviously decided that the education sector is a much better way to try to hook up future engineers to their brand, so Tek gives huge incentives to schools and universities in an attemp to get their kit out there. I'm not sure it's very helpful as every engineer will come into contact with various instruments throughout his career, and it only takes one contact with a different brand scope for him to realize that scopes don't necessarily have to be slow, locking up or even crashing, or a general pain to use.QuoteNo, but that is because it's driven by certain employees in their free time, and the software keys and the permission to dublicate them was given to someone outside the company, which means the burden on the business is pretty much zero.QuoteNo, not really. As I said above, if you buy for business then friendliness towards hobbyists is pretty irrelevant. What counts is performance, functionality, support and price. No-one in his right mind is basing a decision to buy a $250k+ scope on hobbyist support. Companies buy LeCroy because they need the performance and functionality, and for a lot of stuff LeCroy is pretty much the only source.It's easy to forget when most discussions in this T&M forum are about a Rigol $400 scope but even for larger businesses buying a mid-range or high-end scope is a serious investment, and like all investments there needs to be some business justification for buying it. Getting schematics or free option codes in 20 years isn't part of that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 01:40:15 pm
content: Still having some support information out there can help brand recognition/installed base and help instruments to keep some resale value.IMHO Tektronix, Keysight and Lecroy are all doing a reasonably good job in making infomation available but none of them has a complete collection of service manuals or firmware for all of their gear on their website. Asian TE firms (including the Japanese ones) do much much worse. A user manual or even a datasheet for discontinued products is nowhere to be found.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2016, 02:01:27 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 04, 2016, 12:27:58 pmOf course I'm not saying it's the only factor. But as a minimum familiarity gives a brand a head start.QuoteBut long term support can make an investment more attractive. I'm not talking about large companies that routinely scrap equipment due to silly accounting decisions. Small/medium companies can be using equipment for a very long time.QuoteI agree of course. And how much would it affect their sales? Is it affecting them positively now? Hard to know. But anyway Marketing is even less scientific than culling hens to gain the favor of the gods. How can you really know the impact of an advertising campaign? You can only guess.QuoteYes, that makes sense of course.QuoteNot that it would cost a lot anyway. Having some service manuals available for download has a negligible cost. Again, maybe something to win out of this policy, very little to lose if anything.QuoteIndeed, that friendlyness won't be the only factor. But, two alternatives considered roughly equivalent, which one would you choose? The manufacturer you know well or the other? We are still social apesQuoteHowever, for small businesses and start-ups a higher resale value can be another factor. And, of course, environmental responsability. Which is not satisfied by putting pictures of cuddly panda bears on a web page. But trying to minimize electronic waste by keeping kit healthy and reasonably well maintained in the long term is, for sure, a good policy.And yes, for my personal tinkering I've purchased a Rigol. But maybe one of these days I will decide on some Lecroy LT, who knows.Note that I've tried to acquire a high end Lecroy, but I've been unsuccessfulWe have a high end server from IBM which turns out to have an intermitent defect in the storage subsystem. IBM pretty much refused to help (and now they are in my ban list, no IBM/Lenovo hardware will be welcome here, ever) and I had to finally find the faulty component (a SAS HBA) and replace it.At some time, when arguing with the service rep, I offered to try to diagnose the problem. They refuse because the machine diagnostics don't detect anything, and they say we are using "unsupported software" (FreeBSD). Of course they are unable to understand that I have 5 more of those servers, same model, working without flaws using the same software.So I explained that there are intermittent faults (this is some signal corruption happening like, with a 70% chance within 90 minutes when you put a lot of I/O load on the disks) that no diagnostics software will detect. "Just send me a high end Lecroy and the appropiate SAS testing pods and I will send you the screenshots eventually. Of course I will keep the scope as a payment for my effort, though". Needless to say, no LeCroy crate has arrived so far

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on May 04, 2016, 02:01:27 pmSure, but brand awareness mostly comes through marketing, product demonstrations and familarity through existing instruments on the job.QuoteTrue, but long-term support is not giving schematics to hobbyists. Long-term support is offering repair services and spares for an extended period of times, like LeCroy still offering repairs for the old 9300 Series.QuoteHardly. Simply because how a manufacturer treats hobbyists using obsolete gear has no relevance for the purchase of new mid-range or high-end gear.QuoteAs stated on other occasions, I'm buying a lot of test gear professionally (and I mean really a lot!), aside from the occasional purchase for my humble home lab, and I have been doing this for most part of roughly two decades now. Working with customers and manufacturers in the procurement phase gives you a very good insight into what's relevant and what's not, and what goes and what doesn't. And I can assure you that friendliness towards hobbyists is not even on the RADAR when professional purchasing decisions are made. Not only because what a manufacturer does now is pretty irrelevant 20 years down the line.QuoteIt's not that simple as to just put schematics on a web server. You have to make sure stuff is releasable first, doesn't violate the law or 3rd party IP. For example, the schematics of faster scopes are unlikely to become available anytime soon as they fall under US export regulations (ITAR/EAR). Then there's 3rd party IP, i.e. for information about some components which are bought in the instrument manufacturer has merely a right to use, not right to distribute/publish. A good example are industrial power supplies made by Lambda or Eaton which are used in some HPAK gear. Keysight can't give the schematics away because they are property of the PSU manufacturer.In addition, there's the risk to get sued, as making the schematics public can be interpreted as condoning end users fiddling in the inside of their instrument which might contain lethal voltages, and if an end user gets electrocuted then the manufacturer might well become liable.There's a whole rats nest of things that go along with it, and dealing with them costs money. Often a lot.Which is why manufacturers like Keysight don't give away schematics, and leave it to individuals working there making them available to some hobbyists where possible, this way avoiding direct liability.QuoteIf the choice is between two instruments of equal performance and functionality then there are things like support, price, commonality with existing equipment, user (which isn't necessarily me) familiarity, lead times, potential incentives, and a whole raft of other parameters to make the decision.Familarity with the brand is a non-issue as I know all major brands pretty wellOn the other side, if I didn't then I wouldn't base a decision on familarity with a 20+yr old instrument from that manufacturer, which can be wildly deceiving (just look at Tek, which 20yrs ago was still great, while today it's pretty much the bottom-of-the-barrel amongst big brands).QuoteYes, but for most instruments the resale value is pretty much gone once they have been out of manufacturer support. Of course You can always get a couple of hundred dollars on ebay for some antique instrument, but that isn't much resale value and nothing worth considering when buying a new test instrument.QuoteYes, to some extend. One thing that is ignored is that operating old gear indefinitely isn't environmentally friendly, just look ad fridges (the higher power consumption of a 30yr old fridge can easily exceed the environmental cost of the production of a new one where the old one is recycled properly).Also, old kit is that, old. Take analog scopes for example, which are pretty much useless for most of today's tasks (even hobbyists stuff), and lack the most basic functionality that is expected from a scope today). So keeping one in working condition isn't generally worthwhile, unless you do it for fun/learning/you collect antiques, but certainly not from an economic or ecologic point of view.QuoteSounds like IBM hasn't changed a bit. I doubt they ever heard of LeCroy, these days you can count yourself lucky if the assigned technician even knows what a scope is for.Thank god everywhere I work servers and workstations come from HP

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 01:37:04 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 05, 2016, 01:25:53 pmYes, that's true. But manufacturing electronic components and disposing of them has ahugeimpact on the environment.QuoteI was kidding of course, I doubt even IBM uses such tools for development. LSI Logic/Avago, the manufacturer of the HBA, SAS expanderand their chips, indeedQuoteThen I won't tell you how I witnessed an expensive EVA storage system failing in a craptacular way, so nasty that the HP technicians were unable to recover it. The good thing is, it was a demo unit so no real data was harmed.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 03:53:17 pm
content: Apart from the liabilities Wuerstchenhund mentioned, I think strategically this equation is a bit difficult to reconcile: from one side the manufacturer wants to sell the newer models, but from another side it would be desirable to maintain the bottom of the market somewhat loyal and not lose it to "disposable gear" manufacturers. Giving away the bottom of the market opens the gate to capitalize these brands that can start eating at higher branches of the food chain (something that has been discussed at large in other threads).All that said, I would love to see schematics for older test gear.