Have we all been seduced by digital? Aren't analogue scope nicer? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 09:23:57 pm
content: I have a £1000 DSO then picked up a small analogue scope which is just so much easier to use for amplifier and similar repairs I found myself using it more often than the much more sophisticated DSO. Today I went to collect a 20MHz dual trace analogue scope and ended up picking up a second 50MHz scope, a Tektronix 2555. After a big helping of TLC the 2555 is working great. The trace is smoother and nicer, the controls stay where they were, the controls are not shared, it's less complicated with things you don't need etc etc......Are we all being seduced by functions we are not using? I've only used the logic analyser and the current to voltage convertor a few times. I've not actually found the USB connection of any use and the storage of waveforms etc is a rare use.How often do people actually USE these functions?I'm not about to get rid of my DSO but I'm finding the analogue one far more convenient. What do people think?

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 09:28:52 pm
content: I use measurement functions and storage modes basically every time I use my scopes, so yeah, I use capabilities not afforded by an analog scopeYeah an analog scope doesn't have all the menus (though hybrid ones with automatic measurements and storage modes sure do!), but if the UI is thought out, for basic analog-scope-capable kinds of functions, you don't really need to use menus much - the basic stuff is supposed to be the easiest stuff to navigate to.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:03:14 pm
content: All things being equal, DSOs are smaller and weight a lot less. That alone would be enough for me. Obviously things are not otherwise equal, and I personally have no use for the analog scope. Literally, you would have to pay me to take one.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:06:18 pm
content: Short answer to OP's question: NO! We went through this same discussion a few months ago. And a few months before that. Etc.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:10:03 pm
content: We just had one of these threads many pages long. Trolls be gettin' lazy. Maybe I should start a new metric thread.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:11:50 pm
content: It took me a long while to adjust to using a digital scope when I got a good one. I'd still turn on the analog one first and it seemed and easier quicker to use.I got used to having the extra features of the digital, and sufficiently familiar with it that I now tend to go to it first. But I haven't taken the analog off the workbench and I'd always recommend someone learns on an analog unless they can afford a _very_ good digital. There are a lot of jobs where it really doesn't make a lot of difference and analog still has a nicer feel to it (Tek 465 vs Agilent DSO7014A).I think the 4 channels on the digital and the big screen are the killer features for me - neither exclusive, nor always present, on digital. 4 channels all in green on a 5" screen would be hard to use.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:27:19 pm
content: Quote from: cowasaki on December 02, 2019, 09:23:57 pmIf you were repairing digital circuits, or anything with a µC, you'd be missing very much the D and the S of the DSO I'm afraid!

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 10:36:57 pm
content: Sorry I hadn’t seen a similar thread (yes I should have looked). We can just let this one die offI have both but was just thinking that for a lot of things analogue is simpler and easier. Just thought some other people might be in a similar position. I’ll go and look for the other ones :-)

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2019, 11:16:25 pm
content: I too echo that it is easier for a newcomer to use a basic analogue scope and then progress onto a DSO later, as you rightly said, the controls stay put and by reading their position it is easy to understand what is happening. I have now upgraded to a combiscope (analogue and digital in the same case which switches mode at the press of a button) and I also have 2 DSO's as well. These being a DSO138 (battery powered) kit scope perfect for audio work as it has a very low bandwidth, a Tek TDS210 60MHz DSO and a Fluke PM3390B 200MHz combiscope and these fulfil my requirements nicely.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 12:24:36 am
content: What makes digital scopes harder to use, is the fact that manufacturers pack them with features that not everyone uses (or rarely uses).In the higher end digital camera world, you can often customise the physical buttons on the back of the camera to quickly access settings that you, the photographer (scope user!) need most often. Many photographers program the buttons to behave like their older cameras, making it quick and intuitive to use. This, it seems to me, is what the OP is actually talking about - quick and intuitive to use!Do any DSOs have the ability for users to permanently assign functions to its controls/buttons this way?

author: porker1972
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 12:38:44 am
content: Not as a rule, but there's one "quick action" button on Keysight which can be programmed to save, screenshot, etc.The main issue on digital scopes is the balance between buttons -v- menu and the user interface. Analogue scopes had buttons and switches for everything, and I found them confusing 30+ years ago when I first started using even the most basic 2ch analogue scope. Digital scopes got busier with more buttons, then went to a deep menu format with fewer buttons, now they are mostly back to more buttons and knobs. I think it's followed the design philosophy of cars - the dashboard was simple, then got busier, then BMW made a stride with the iDrive (which most copied) to de-clutter, but now we are back with more buttons as it was just a PITA. However you do get familiar with the button layout quite quickly and get to know the few buttons you use on a regular basis; again, I see a parallel with a car - you use the radio volume and indicators much more than fog lights, in the same way you change the V/div and timescale more than the trigger type, and you'll find the frequently used buttons easily but have to look for the trigger set-up somewhere in the menu.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 02:35:40 pm
content: Perhaps in the future, the car sales department will personalise your vehicle by assigning a set of physical buttons just for you and your preferences!

author: colorado.rob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 03:43:59 pm
content: I use the digital features of my 'scopes all the time. Whether for decoding I2C, SPI and UART signals, deep memory, remote control via SCPI, or just simple screenshots. I learned on analog scopes. They are no match for what we have today.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 04:04:23 pm
content: It may be that the DSO that the OP has doesn't have a decent user interface, either in terms of usability or in terms of performance.I had both on my bench for very many years, a Tek 2465B and a Tek TDS2024B.It wasn't until I got my hands on a 54642D Megazoom scope I quickly completely switched over to using a DSO, although I'd used several others before then. This was almost entirely due to the UI.

author: cowasaki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 04:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on December 03, 2019, 04:04:23 pmPossibly as I've had my DSO for years. It's a UNI-T 4102C which was not a cheap device in it's time. I've used others but grew up on analogue and now I'm messing with amplifiers and music equipment the analogue ones just feel right.I am looking for a new four channel scope in the new year for the more complex stuff so maybe I can get something with a better interface. Even using the UNI-T constantly and having the manual I couldn't find things I was looking for.... Simple things like persistence has just three options. When I bought the UNI-T I was on my own diving through specs, features etc and it seemed to do everything I wanted. I have a budget of £600-1000 for the scope next year plus maybe some from selling the UNI-T and some other gear. Maybe that needs to be another question for another time. I'd love something with an analogue feel with the versatility of a DSO. I like the analogue display but the size and weight is an issue. I would probably still use the 2225 for amps unless I can find a nicer analogue scope...…. However if the DSO is just right maybe I will use it for everything.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 04:42:44 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on December 03, 2019, 04:04:23 pmI have the same scope, and I agree with you - it has the "feel" of an analog scope, plus all the DSO/MSO goodies. I hope Keysight has kept the same type of UI on their newer scopes. It is such a pleasure to use.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 04:48:38 pm
content: The extra functions of most DSOs can make the usage a little less intuitive. However things also get easier as finding the right trigger is usually less important. With analog scope there usually is not that much choice to make things different. So switching models was easy and one hardly needs to read a manual. The younger ones may not have experience with an analog scope - so the use may not be that intuitive to them either. With digital scope the user interface can be quite different between units.For many tasks an analog scope may be sufficient, but there are a few function one can really miss:Single capture, the measurement functions, pre-trigger and getting a flicker free picture even at low frequencies.I don't think there are any new analog scopes available anymore. So the choice is limited.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 05:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on December 02, 2019, 10:06:18 pmPeople seem more than happy than to rehash the same damned discussion yet again.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 05:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 03, 2019, 05:04:48 pmLike a good song - you can listen to it again, and again, and again!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 05:40:10 pm
content: Like in the Metric vs Imperial topic, people seem to enjoy it.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 05:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: cowasaki on December 02, 2019, 09:23:57 pmNope.I’m using both, digital and analog. The DSO for serious work and the analog to show my scope clock...Edit : Actually there’s one mode that DSO really sucks.... X-Y.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 06:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: cowasaki on December 02, 2019, 09:23:57 pmPeople think, you use your feeling too much in scoping, try use a bit more of brain.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 06:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: cowasaki on December 02, 2019, 09:23:57 pmThe ability to show pre-trigger data and to capture and display a single shot make analog scopes paperweights or curiosities for collectors in my book. Memory, waveform explorers, measurements, protocol decoders, complex triggers, and so on are just icing on the cake, and yes I use all those features frequently.If all you are doing is looking at sine waves from a signal generator then all you need is an AC voltmeter and then yes a DSO is overkill.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 06:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on December 03, 2019, 06:32:53 pmMany analog scopes can show pre-trigger data :-)

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 06:56:30 pm
content: I absolutely love the nostalgia feel and the incredible user interface of analog oscilloscopes. It also shows audio and those Lissajous curves in a much nicer way. Apart from these factors, my Rigol DSO DS4014 wins my heart on everything else and is my daily driver.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 07:14:02 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 03, 2019, 06:55:32 pmUnless it is a repetitive waveform................How?This is not a sarcastic question. I'm sincerely curious.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 07:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on December 03, 2019, 07:14:02 pmWith a delay line:http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Delay_lineQuote

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 07:51:10 pm
content: One function I like of DSOs is definitely the history function when available. Just yesterday I needed to collect and analyze some data in different ways. The problem was it was 4000 seconds of data. So I set it up to record data and came back later to do math, fft and check portions of it. Using history lets you do this on all the data or only the portions you're interested in.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 08:13:11 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 03, 2019, 06:56:30 pmThe former is why I have a labful of analog scopes at home. The really nice ones are simply a joy to use. I personally enjoy a "back to basics" approach anyway. It forces me to actually learn about what I'm doing. Besides, half a century or so of electronics were developed and repaired using exactly none of the DSO niceties we enjoy today. Heck, I believe that Tektronix 465 was practically designed to IBM's specifications as a scope that traveling repairmen could bring as a carryon item on commercial flights for work travel to fix Big Iron computers.I will not deny, however, that DSO features are very nice for working with bus protocols and stuff. I do mostly analog stuff at home though, so it's really not a huge worry for me right now.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 08:18:21 pm
content: Analogue scopes are much better.If you like fixing analogue scopesSeriously though 99% of what I do I can do with my ancient Philips PM3217 and the rest a NanoVNA and a Aliexpress logic analyser. The Rigol may depart soon.As for protocol decoding, digital scopes are horrid for that. A scope is a jack of all trades instrument. They have too many poorly implemented features and quality issues these days IMHO. That includes all the bricked high end units with $1000+ repair bills I keep hearing about.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 08:23:35 pm
content: I also have a Tektronix TLA series logic analyzer with way more channels than any MSO will ever dream of having,as well asthe ability to interface directly with contemporary Tek TDS and similar series digital scopes. That will probably be what I look for in a digital scope whenever I get round to looking for one, simply because I can use it with my existing LA.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 09:43:24 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on December 03, 2019, 05:40:10 pmPeople enjoy listening to their own inane drivel and feeling they are the smart one. I think we can count the number of people who were actually swayed by arguments in all these threads on one hand. It's all about self gratification.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 10:36:47 pm
content: I don't really know why people talk about "Best to learn on an analog scope" etc.A scope takes only a few minutes to learn how to use regardless of whether it is digital or analog. (obviously, advanced features take longer, but if you aren't advanced, you won't be looking for them)It's not like a scope is a complicated piece of gear. There are only 4-5 controls that matter to a beginner and a quick 5 min tut should have you up and running in no time.People here talk as though using a scope is like learning to pilot a nuclear sub or fly a space shuttle.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 10:40:13 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 03, 2019, 07:44:42 pmNo where near enough when you need to look at something ms before the trigger event.DSO's handle such requirements with ease.Must be a bunch of old codgers here that can't get their heads around DSO usage.Really it's little different to driving a CRO as the basics are identical, you have an input attenuator, timebase and a trigger, albeit a very limited limited trigger selection in a CRO.I'm 60 and ya can stick your CRO's where the sun don't shine such is the power of a DSO.Sure, I started with CRO's and dual delayed timebases ......A intensified by B and all that BS.....which DSO Zoom handles with far less forking around.I think I still have 5 CRO's of which only one works and I really can't be bothered getting the dead ones going.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 10:41:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 03, 2019, 09:43:24 pmI think it’s a little more complicated than that.It’s people looking for kinship in the realm of “good enough” when the world’s ideologues are constantly pushing “better” marketing for a small price by proxy of an irrecoverable piece of your life and soul. Better is only different and not objectively true depending on your actual non-corrupted requirements.Thus I suspect most people, at least amateurs like myself, really aren’t objective with their requirements and are purchasing digital scopes This is because they like a shiny toy and an apathy bridge rather than it delivers a net benefit to the purchaser who may just want to casually observe and do limited measurements of repetitive signals and can put up with some minor inconvenience for the edge cases.This problem applies to many problem domains across different interests, fields and hobbies.Talking of which - if anyone wants to buy my DS1054Z for £300 shipped UPS let me know(boxed as new with all probes - strictly U.K. delivery only!)

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2019, 10:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on December 03, 2019, 10:36:47 pmFor the main part analog scopes are very similar to use. So once you know how to use an analog scope you should be able to to use mode models. For the basic part most DSOs also include controls similar to the old analog world. So knowing the analog scope usually also helps with most DSOs. Most DSOs have different options to for control, e.g. old style knobs and menu function - the menu way can be quite different between brands / models. So if one starts with an DSO, one may end up learning the model specific parts and ignore the more universal.Anyway no need to get a real CRO - just looking at that type of manual could be enough. A good DSO manual should also show this - but good manual are rare and RTFM is no very popular.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 06:56:06 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 03, 2019, 10:41:30 pmI'd like to think it's more complicated than that and then I look at the metric thread, the endless OS threads or any of the many other ceaselessly recurring threads. People love petting their own vomit.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2019, 08:06:21 am
content: Quote from: cowasaki on December 02, 2019, 09:23:57 pmWell, that depends on the DSO. Especially the UI can be totally crap on a DSO because it's all software. Personally, my first DSO was a Tek TDS220 (which I still have), this one gave me the real look and feel of an analog scope regarding the UI, is small and lightweight, has a reasonable update rate and fast response to user action plus some handy menus. If I don't need the sophisticated analysis funtions of e.g. a full blown LeCroy, I prefer this one over may modern DSOs.