Designer/assembler looking for reasonable pnp machine - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: liudr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2022, 03:52:20 am
content: First post on this forum! I have been designing and hand assembling circuit boards with SMD components for almost a decade now. Building batches of boards has become boring and tiring and I am willing to invest some time and money for a pick-n-place machine. I'm looking for some advice to help me make decisions soon. I know some principles of how it works from online reading and watching videos. If it comes to price vs. work it takes to build and maintain, I would probably pay higher price to reduce my time to build the machine and maintain it.I know amazon is probably not the best place to buy such thing but here is something I found as a reference or starting point:https://www.amazon.com/shipping-machine-CHMT36VA-feeders-mounter/dp/B08S3CW7ZB/I don't know the company or what software it's using, probably not open source. It looks pretty much pre-assembled. So this is my reference for almost ready-to-go systems requiring least time to get it going and more expensive.I also looked at openpnp, which is like you build your own machine:https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp-openbuilds/wiki/Build-InstructionsThis seems to require the most time and the least money to build and is customizable but I currently don't have a lot of free time.So my current need is simple:My current bom has about 25 chip components, mostly 0805 because I could easily place those. I have some 0603 for tight spaces. Resistors, inductors, capacitors, diodes, fuse, ferrite beads. I also have a small number of ICs, small qfn, 24-32 pads, and also I need ESP32 module (maybe different nozzles?). I think it would be great if I could expand capabilities with say swappable reel carriers (is that a thing?) or additional reels say on opposite sides of the machine etc.I would like to have enough space for an IC tray. I could probably saw one tray in half so one half has some different size ICs than the other half, say some TQFP on one half and QFN on the other half.Board size I want a minimal size of maybe 4in by 4in (smaller would be better) and max size hopefully a panel of 9in by 9in or at least 4.5in by 9in with spare space for IC tray. I don't design large boards. I'm currently limited by my reflow oven as well but that's a cheaper device to upgrade to larger size I think.So if you have some directions for me to look at, regardless of the specs of the machine you recommend, please feel free to share. With the uncertainty of covid and lockdowns, and the price hikes of overseas fabs, I think it's time for me to invest in-house small batch assemblyThanks for reading!

author: lutkeveld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2022, 10:05:37 am
content: I have the CHMT36 (without vision) and it's great for small runs.If you do small in-house runs, also be sure to have a good stencil and reflow step.Those quickly become the bottle-neck, both in quality and through-put, once you have a pick and place.Good paste application is especially important if you have smaller devices like QFN's.Rework, or even worse: rejection, takes a lot of money and time if you are running batches.And once you hit around 30-50pcs, you probably still want to switch to an outsourced assembler.Even though a pnp greatly reduces time spent per board, it still takes up more time than you think:Stencelling, machine setup, reel swaps/jams, placement, post-placement inspection, reflow, post-reflow inspection, THT insertion, soldering etc.

author: liudr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2022, 03:13:42 pm
content: Thank you for sharing @lutkeveld!I hope with vision included, the placement will be better because if all components are placed, then checking qfn parts will be challenging. I usually hand place them first so I can look all around them to make sure I have good alignments.For stenciling, I order stainless steel stencils with boards from JLCPCB, which is good enough for small batches of small boards. Solder paste still find its way under the stencil eventually. I reflow up to 16 boards at a time (small). So far after say 16 uses on the stencil in one run the bleeding and smudging isn't too bad. I have so far not rejected a qfn since switching to qfn on some ICs due to TQFP out of stock (1 use for each board since I'm not panelizing boards yet). I may panelize in the near future so I can apply paste less times per the same number of boards. If I have a panel with 4 boards, I only need to stencil 4 times to get 16 boards done so less bleeding of paste to the bottom. I'm currently using a crude way of setting up old PCBs as guides around a new PCB and taping the stencil over the PCB to apply paste. I may have to get a good printing machine and framed stencil for more serious batchesSo far qfns are good with hand placement. If I discover that they are off, after reflowing, I can use a hot air rework station to fix them. You have to push "hard" enough to click them one pad to the right or left once solder melts. I did some of that during the early days of using qfn.About the CHMT36 you're using, does it run the openpnp software or some older proprietary software? I'm reading on their website that they have openpnp but not sure if they produce parts for people to build their own openpnp or their pnp are running openpnp.Time-wise, yes the time saved from hand placing parts isn't ALL the manual labor as you pointed out already, inspection, repairs, flashing firmware and tests, then thruhole component soldering and packaging. I think this can all be done by an assembler although it will be more costly and takes time to properly communicate. If I have a product that I don't need to update, say due to chip shortagethen I can try that route. Right now I'm thinking about hiring an intern, college student, so it will be their time mostly, if I find a good intern. This way I can save my own time to do designs, updates, and a lot of firmware development.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2022, 04:19:38 pm
content: I started in 2007 with a Philips CSM84, very old school machine with no vision, it used mechanical centering jaws to center parts on the nozzles. No auto nozzle changer. I replaced it with a Quad QSA30 (made by Samsung) with flying vision and an auto nozzle changer. The programming is more complex, but it has a LOT of self-diagnostic capability. It was apparently not stored in a conditioned space and had a lot of things break down shortly after I got it, so that was a downside. But, I'm happy with my choice of getting a used, high-end commercial machine instead of a Chinese low-end machine. I have had no problem getting parts for the Quad as it is based on a fairly popular Samsung base machine that was used widely in the East.So, if you have the room, a used production machine might be a good choice. Both of these machines I had could handle a WIDE range of part sizes, from 0603 up to 21mm FPGAs.Jon

author: liudr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 02:35:38 am
content: Thanks for sharing @jmelson. I'm not ready to purchase retired production quality machines. There's too much I don't know about pick and place machines. This first machine will hopefully be a positive enough experience so I can forge ahead with learning more and maybe eventually go for production quality stuff, used or new. I don't know if "Juki" means anything in the world of pnp machines. This low-end table-top system claims to use these nozzles.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 07:56:39 am
content: @liudr have been following your work in the past on Arduino especially. So I know what type of components sizes you play with.Just a couple of important aspect for you to look at in deciding what would suit your requirements.- vision system: there's no running away from this as this gets parts aligned properly on the board. Just don't bother with those that doesn't have a vision correction system.- feeder system: as you are looking at smaller machine you will probably end up with a built-in feeder system. At this lower end of the price, you get what you pay for. Most of them are either pull or drag feeder can be very fiddly and frustrating to work with. These type of feeder often snap your cover tape and will stop your on-going work.- number of head/nozzle: with 2 nozzle supported on a machine, you probably can't go below 0805 and that will require more nozzle type to cover the tinier components and also on the larger ones and anything in between. If the machine comes with a nozzle changer, it would be great. Then you don't have to stop in between run to change the nozzle. I think minimum is 4 and 6 would be great but of course most of the smaller machine comes with 2.I think that is probably the 3 most important aspect to look at. Of course there are various other things to look at like software, size, support, built quality, etc. Read my post of my journey of buying a P&P machine and you will know what you are getting into and hope you can avoid certain mistakes I have made in the past.It is also worth checking out 2nd hand machine like those tiny desktop that comes with vision like the CHMT36VA and the likes. If they come in for few hundred dollar only, why not?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 04:06:20 pm
content: Quote from: liudr on May 05, 2022, 02:35:38 amThese machines with square-end hypodermic nozzles seem like they can't work very well. I have a nozzle that is about 8mm diameter with a rubber seal to hold vacuum on larger parts. I have had cases where even larger capacitors would slip on the nozzle unless I used a nozzle that was about half the long dimension of the part. Now that I have experienced using a machine with an ANC, I can't imagine going back. My QSA30 has line-scan cameras that sight across the part for rotational alignment and centering. There is one camera per nozzle (my machine has 3) and the cameras ride along on the head so that the alignment is performed as the head moves from the feeders to the board. So, it can accurately measure parts from 0603 up to 21mm square FPGAs.Also, the production machines have conveyors so that you just put the stencilled blank boards in one end and the finished boards come out the other end. No reaching into the machine to put a board into a fixture.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 04:13:53 pm
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on May 05, 2022, 07:56:39 amYup, even my old Philips has a "beam sensor" to find the fiducial marks on the board. That compensates for slight difference in the routing of the edge of the board relative to the pads.QuoteYes, good feeders are REALLY what makes or breaks the machine. I had to constantly fiddle with sticking feeders that didn't peel the cover tape properly on my Philips machine. The Quad feeders on my new machine do a LOT better. Having to go in and fiddle with sticking feeders kind of spoils the whole idea of automation!QuoteYES, either ANC or a selection of different nozzles is a must. I kept 3 different nozzles on my Philips machine all the time. One for passives, one for SOIC and one for big parts like FPGAs.Jon

author: liudr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 07:04:33 pm
content: Thanks @48X24X48XI used to have the same forum handle @liudr on arduino forum but some years ago they merged forum and store users and my handle was force-changed. Anyway, I've not been very active on Arduino forum lately, just a lot of work, fun though!So it sounds like maybe I should get a used unit so I could learn enough about these machines without paying too much "tuition" on a new unit. Is there any place where I can get some used machines?So 3 main things: nozzles, feeders, and vision.Here is what I think I could do on the nozzles: only have 2 at a time like jmelson described their setup with 3 nozzles, passive, small, and then big ICs. I could use just two if I hand place large parts like ESP32 modules. I use 0805 mostly because I can reliably do it by hand. I have a few 0603 so if a single nozzle can't handle both, I only need a few moments to hand place 0603, or even change my design to unify the sizes for single nozzle operation. Then the other nozzle could possible do both SSOP-20 and some QFN-28 and QFN-30. Maybe the small nozzle can also do SOT23-3 and -5, -6 if I use a large enough nozzle to cover 0805 and SOT23? The big nozzle for IC, will it handle SMB diodes and some inductors? Hope I can find some online reference for thisI will definitely go with vision since I have some small qfns.About feeders, I can't tell how the cheap feeders work. I see one belt driving the whole assembly. I can't tell how they can advance individual reels. For more expensive systems, I think each feeder is a separate plug-an-play device with reel in the feeder. I see that each one of these feeders can cost a few hundred or more. Probably too expensive to start with.

author: liudr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 07:13:47 pm
content: Thanks @jmelson! You're definitely running a sizeable operation, maybe assembling for your own projects and lending a hand to others as well? I imagine myself doing assembly mostly for myself or projects I work on but ANC sounds very appealing as my ultimate machine! As a designer I often have the freedom to choose what parts to use so if I design things using parts similar to what I have on my own products then I will likely only have to maintain a reasonable BOM for myself and my clients. Then it would make sense to have a good machine and nice feeders that more or less stay in place and only very few need to be swapped if I need new parts. Summer dreams I guess. And thanks for your response to @48X24X48X! I think even if I go with a cheap machine, you guys have set me up for an appropriate expectation so I won't be disappointed or more frustrated than I have to

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2022, 12:04:39 am
content: Quote from: liudr on May 05, 2022, 07:04:33 pmWell, I got hooked up with the seller of my first machine through posts on SMTnet. That was a "motivated seller" he had new machines coming in in 2 weeks and had to get rid of the old machines. That machine was not accurate enough for the parts I started using, SSOP and 0.5mm pitch FPGAs, it was just FINE for SOIC parts and passives. So, I had to upgrade. I went to a local auction and feel in love with a Samsung CP45, but it went really expensive. Then, I put in a bid on a Quad QSA30A, built by Samsung, but using Quad feeders and alignment cameras. I got it for the starting bid, but then had to scrape up all the accessories. Luckily, Quad feeders are quite inexpensive on the used market. Then, the bad news. Apparently, my machine must have been stored in unconditions space in Austin TX, for at least 6 years after it was last run. And, it was worked over by monkeys who damaged parts and replaced things with the wrong parts. The machine fired right up when I received it, but then, just 2 DAYS LATER, boards started going out. Fortunately, the base Samsung model was quite popular in the East, so I had no trouble getting affordable spares from Korea and such.Another issue was learning to use it, I did get copies of the manuals from other users, but the manuals were REALLY awful! I got put in contact with the guy who traned customers at the factory, and he has been enormously helpful!I did get the original machine that was close to 20 years old, and it ran with practically no issues for 13 years, just an occasional cracked hose and a sensor that went out. So, what happened with the Quad machine is QUITE out of the ordinary.Note that many machines need 3-phase power and a lot of compressed air. I have a 2 (REAL!) HP compressor and it is pretty marginal. The Philips CSM84 and Quad QSA30 run on single-phase power. Also, my CSM84 was 1700 LBs and the Quad is 2600 or so.They are both about 5 x 6 feet of floor space.There are "Chip shooters" that are designed for placing small passives at astounding speeds, but for just one machine, you want a "flexible mounter" that can handle a wide range of part sizes.QuoteI will mention that I had never even SEEN a P&P in person until I got my first machine. I was up and making boards on it in less than a week! (I had no idea how good I had it, as the manuals were actually quite good!)

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2022, 12:08:10 am
content: Quote from: liudr on May 05, 2022, 07:13:47 pmNot so sizeable! It is a one-man shop. I mostly make my own line of boards in relatively small batches, but have placed a few boards for others.(Note: ANC is Automatic Nozzle Changer, not a specific brand of machine.)Jon

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2022, 08:44:56 am
content: I have a samsung CP-60L for sale in Chicago. If anyone is interested PM me. I recommend name brand machines over chinese ones all day.

author: doppelgrau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2022, 12:47:26 pm
content: I'm a hobbyist and bought a slightly used and readily assembled liteplacer and converted it to openpnp withHeapFeederfor passives..Now I have a quite flexible machine for my prototypes / very small batches.https://www.formann.de/2021/03/pick-place-6-n-halbwegs-fertig/(Picture, text in German, no legacy IPv4)But takes a bit time to understand the setup.

author: liudr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2022, 04:09:37 am
content: Thanks though @Reckless! Just looking to get my feet wet, not trying to reach the new world yet!

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2022, 01:04:47 pm
content: There is a world of difference between the super entry level Chinese machines and the larger (but still "desktop") models that take actual feeders - with upgrades to both drive train & build (although not universally true or easy to establish). A lot of these machines are pretty small which limits them in so many ways, there are plenty of threads in here (and vids on YT etc) with opinions on specific platforms, issues/quirks etc. I'm not sure there's a clear winner, there is certainly some vocal advice on who not to buy from (YX because its actually a rebadging reseller) and a very damning experience with Charmhigh. Kayo may have an edge on some bits of the software but if it applies to all models or just the A-range.. who can say.I have watched a few videos of people working or demoing these machines and I'm not sure you'd transfer much of what you learned on one to a more established brand, all of them seem to invented their own very unique workflows and little bits of terminology. If you were thinking it might be a step towards something better in a few years this is something to consider, although the basic raw data will of course be portable at some level. That's not to say every established brand out there works the same way, but most have much stronger interface design and logical bits of automation.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2022, 06:48:10 pm
content: I was in same position as you. Unfortunately the chinese machines are super junk. They don't do what they are supposed to. If they did I would have gone that route. I truly hope someday they make reliable and viable machines as I prefer their manufacturing philosophy on pick and place machines which are small and light. They need to make it fast too. I don't see them reaching this for 10+ years.Now established machines like Samsung, Assembleon, Yamaha, etc are what really work in the field. Its nice to have an ACTUAL machine that works and will last 10-20 years if properly maintained.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2022, 09:57:37 pm
content: I run 2 Charmhigh 48VB machines.They are quirky for sure, you fiddle with them a lot. Still, probably around 99.5% good (but keep in mind that you WILL most likely have to tweak something on every board/panel with more than 200 pieces), and their converter software is flaming hot garbage. Seriously, it is nasty.Luckily for me, these machines run the same boards over and over, so I don't have to mess with their converter software much at all. For small count boards, it is actually easier to print off the PnP list from your board design program and program the machine at the machine.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 01:38:12 am
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on May 11, 2022, 09:57:37 pmThank you for sharing. A lot of people don't quite understand what the TS needed for his application and harped on big huge machine that he's not looking for. Sometimes people just add too much noise into the forum without actually helping or understand the question that TS ask.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 10:11:10 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on May 12, 2022, 01:38:12 amI think every comment is fair enough really, everyone has their own value they set on their time & physical space, the OP indicated a lack of time and perhaps some reluctance to do a lot of fiddling. If those are important criteria, arguably a 2nd user big machine is the better option if you can physically accommodate it, and that's especially true if you have a suspicion you might get the manufacturing bug and start slightly larger scale production. If those larger machines are not an option, smaller European machines like Essemtec will be more user friendly, again saving on time and fiddly frustration. Otherwise dodging drag feeders (Kayo A4/ CHM-T560P4 etc)is in IMHO always the way to go if you can stretch to it, and gives the OP that swappable reel carrier ability they think they might like, altho' the sourcing is not perhaps as simple as Amazon with free shipping.

author: pan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2022, 10:26:17 am
content: I was in somewhat similar position as threadstarter some time ago. I got a lot of good input from this forum.Because of cost and my requirements at the time (mostly prototyping and very low volume) I bought a p&p machine from Kayo; chinese brand. To make a long story very short. The machine works very well after proper setup. Software is easy to use and stable. I have received software updates on a regular basis. Support is professional and very good. Since I was a newbie I had lots of questions not only about how to work the machine, but also related to other process issues. Every time a fast and prompt answer. Kayo has a range of different machines with different price and capabillities. So has other chinese brands, but others have to give more info on this. But, if a chinese machine is considered I think good support is of the essence. I do my own service and calibration after initial guidance from Kayo. I place 0402 fast and reliable (one board I assemble has about 350 of them). I have not placed 0201 yet since I have not had the need for it, but have the nozzles and eager to try:-) I would have liked shorter setup and change over times and also a nozzle changer would help.So for me it has been a very good purchase, and it opened up for growth. It was not my original intention. I just thought about my current "problem" at the time. So now I have ordered a new machine; Hanwha SM482 plus. I hope to decrease overall setup time and also be able to support even finer pitch IC's, better support for asymetric patterns and also some other "goodies". The machines will be in a line and they can both do what they do best.For threadstarters current component types I think there are a good selection of inexpensive machines (new and used). However, take a moment to think about what comes next with regards to new designs and new requirements. Also do not only consider machine cost, but also add a proper amount of feeders into the equation.

author: jayx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2022, 03:55:24 pm
content: I have experience with Autotronik (sold by/as Manncorp in the US) and can say that they are quite good. Even 10 years old machine (for example BS384V) can do a large range of component sizes from 0402 to 50x50mm BGAs with all nozzles for them and anything in between in the machine. It can even do 0201 components, but accuracy is not great and some may need manual tweaking afetr placement. It has a camera based component centerig and a camera for finding fiducials / setting up component pick position.Feeders are not bad too, changing tape is quite easy and it takes under a minute per tape (excluding dealing with the tape itself, like re-reeling of the old one and unreeling a new one).Software could be better, but it's not that bad either. It takes about two hours to prepare the producion which will be picking components from a 100 tapes (excluding teaching new packages and correction of potential placement rotation errors).Machine is quite compact with the feeders loaded on all 4 sides or two if you use a PCB conveyer, but it would limit the feeder capacity quite significantly. It requires single phase power supply and compressed air. Overall I think 2nd hand machine would be better than a new Neoden etc. In Europe you can find this kind of machine for 5-10k Euro, 8mm tape feeders for 100-200 Euro.