LG Battery BS - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 05:39:36 pm
content: Corporations really have no fucking clue...Next they might as well say buy our electric equipment not because "you should go green" but because "gasoline is dangerous, consumers should never handle a jerrycan of gasoline, IT COULD EXPLODE!"

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 07:23:51 pm
content: For almost decades, to me at least, LG stands for "L"ame "G"adget, enough said.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 07:55:47 pm
content: If they said unprotected batteries, I would probably agree. Stupid bastards buy unprotected batteries"because they can supply more current"(stronger smoke). Then put them into mechanical mod vapes which directly connect heater across battery, no electronics, no protection. Then batteries explode in their stupid face and then they sue battery MFG, which is probably why this ad exists.https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/paynter-law-sues-lg-chem-over-allegedly-defective-lithium-ion-batteries-300785610.html

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 08:02:33 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 01, 2020, 07:55:47 pmI agree. I think the commercial is right to warn the common public against the dangers of unprotected lithium cells / lithium cells from shady suppliers. This has nothing to do with dis-allowing people to fix their own stuff.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 08:05:13 pm
content: That video shows that sleeve of bare LG 18650 cell can be easily damaged in noncompliant charger (having no spring-loaded contact). Sony sleeves are as fragile BTW. Yes, people actually *are* that dumb as shown in the video, they happen to put bare cells into pockets (facepalm). Seems, Louis missed main message - "don't put damaged or not, cell into pocket together with metallic objects, keys".I do not see anything wrong when LG warns to not (mis)use cells that are not intended for consumer use. Everybody before facepalming are suggested to read commend underoriginal video: "LG Chem manufactures and distributes Lithium-ion cells to industrial and business purchasers only."

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 08:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 01, 2020, 08:02:33 pmIMHO more like covering their ass in case of lawsuits. They can now show that we warned consumers not to use them.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 08:34:41 pm
content: Accidents happen and will happen due to vaping epidemic. Reportsat end of the doc, scary stuff. No wonder manufacturers are putting legal safety pillows all around.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2020, 10:43:37 pm
content: It's just blanket scaremongering though. They make no attempt to explain that protected cells are safe and unprotected cells are not, just "ooo...batteries are bad!". There are plenty of devices that run on replacable cells like powerbanks, flashlights/lanterns, even that fan they show in the clip. All perfecty safe with proper protected cells. Not just idiots with vapes buy lithium batteries.With the same analogy, if someone tried to make a PSA about how to properly handle fuels, but instead just showed someone doing everything wrong and blowing up without explaining anything and just saying "gas is bad!", that's not a PSA, that's just making a stupid video spreading misinformation. Also the fact that they won't sell even protected cells just gives people more incentive to buy shitty Chinese garbage.There will always be idiots who do stupid things. Do people who smoke a pack a day care about anti-smoking ads? No, of course not, no more than dumbasses who do vape mods would listen to that crap. All they've achieved is frightening John Doe who just wants to change the aging cells in his LED flashlight into thinking "oh no, batteries explode if I change them! Maybe I should just throw this otherwise perfectly working device away and buy a new one."PSA's should be to inform, not misinform. In the same runtime they could have easily explained, in layman's terms, that people should only buy protected cells.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 01:52:17 am
content: Direct link to the original LG video (unlisted)The message could be:1. Don't buy cheap cells from China.2. Use protected cells, they are safer.3. Store loose cells in a protective plastic case.4. Don't keep your keys/other metal objects, in your pocket with 18650 cells.Nope, instead we get pure marketing BS, scare mongering.Some of those battery fires shown in the video are samsung phones, stock footage fail.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 02:11:58 am
content: AnotherLG PSAfearmongering video from LG. Starts at 14:00.https://youtu.be/pS11TNmUGiA?t=840

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 04:06:54 am
content: Quote from: ogden on February 01, 2020, 08:05:13 pmI know alkaline and rechargeable batteries in the common sizes all have this warning on the package, and have had it for a long time. NiCd and NiMH can also output huge amounts of current when shorted.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 05:17:07 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 02, 2020, 04:06:54 amBut they don't explode in fire when overloaded.

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 06:07:21 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 02, 2020, 05:17:07 amThis is not true. I have seen NiCd sub-C cells shoot out flames about 5 inches long. This was in a radio controlled race car which draws huge amounts of current. Who knows how the owner treated the cells.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 08:59:37 am
content: Quote from: Gary350z on February 02, 2020, 06:07:21 amTelco battery banks alsoburst into flameswhen shorted. It does not disprove ANYTHING. Li-Ion cells contains flammable electrolyte and are suspect to thermal runaway when shorted. Sorry about repeating myself but those who say "scaremongering" are advised to read more about 18650 Li-Ion cell failure modes and statistics of accidents in US alone:https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/electronic_cigarettes.pdfAffected individuals most likely are suing manufacturers out of their money and mind, this is main reason of disclaimers and warning videos. I don't mind that they are dumbed down because many people are indeed that dumb while using dangerous stuff.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 10:10:04 am
content: It’s common knowledge among electronics experts that lithium ion cells have insanely high short circuit currents, far more than NiMH, and are much, much, much more susceptible to catastrophic damage resulting in fire. (Fire is NOT a common failure mode in NiMH cells, even if it’s possible.) I don’t think it’s fearmongering in any way to warn consumers away from bare LiIon cells, since most consumers have no idea just how badly a mishandled LiIon cell can behave.As for Rossmann, I don’t understand why people give him so much attention. He’s a whiny windbag with a chip on his shoulder. I do agree with him that the USA has become cripplingly risk-averse, but I don’t actually see this particular instance as being evidence of this.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 12:12:25 pm
content: 18650 cells are internal parts of electronic devices only to be bought and assembled by professional designers and manufacturers. They can't be compared to NiMH, alkaline, etc. batteries sold to general public.Abuse of such cells in direct consumer applications is common, and acceptable IMHO, because I'm all for "do whatever you want", but there is a problem if peopledo not knowthey are abusing a product for a non-intended purpose. This isn't good. You need to do it on purpose, not by accident."Protected 18650" is an afterthought concept, and because they are originally designed for a fairly small "hobbyist" segment, the quality varies. The form factor is limiting; it cannot grow in size much, or it won't fit. Because the protection PCB requires access to both electrodes, they must run anunprotectedmetal strip along the side of the cell. The quality of isolation of this strip varies.18650 cells do incorporate PTC self-resetting fuses in the cap construction, but power tool cells naturally have higher threshold. A mid-ohmic "almost short", or overload in general, is very problematic because it bypasses such fusing but can still cause damage.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 02:17:38 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 02, 2020, 12:12:25 pmStop justifying their fearmongering tactics. If a customer was to accidentally short out a car battery, the bang is going to be bigger than the best a 18650 cell ever could accomplish. Are we now going to weld shut engine covers?For safety, of course!So there are currently about 100 e-cigs-related fire incidents per year in the US, with the majority resulting in no or moderate injury. More people arekilled by lightning strikesin the US than severely injured by an e-cig catching fire.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 02:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: m98 on February 02, 2020, 02:17:38 pmI'd like to see you put a car battery in your back pocket. Besides that car batteries are covered by plastic shields nowadays.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 03:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 02, 2020, 12:12:25 pmThere are far more devices than just e-cigs that have replaceable lithium cells. Protected cells are NOT designed for "just hobbyists". And if you advicate that all cells should be non-replaceable you are just as bad as the corporations that push that shit.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 08:18:16 pm
content: Looks like this thread has quite a few corporate shills too.For an extra bit of irony, look at the datasheets for LG's own 18650s and particularly at the "safety" section:In other words, according to the datasheet, their cells should not be exploding or catching fire when subjected to those abuses, and those that do are defective....

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 08:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on February 02, 2020, 08:18:16 pmCells in the video are green, LG cells are brown:https://www.18650batterystore.com/18650-p/lg-hg2.htm I had to be corrected later. LG 18650 cell colors are all over the place, including greenU never know...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 08:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on February 02, 2020, 08:18:16 pmIgnorance is bliss.QuoteWell... these are the results for testing new cells according to the UN38.3 regulations. These regulations also have requirements for the battery management systems. If you are going to use unprotected cells in a device designed for use with protected cells you are in big trouble. Overcharging and severe discharging will cause cell damage / deterioration which eventually can lead to the cell self-igniting.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2020, 10:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on February 02, 2020, 08:57:08 pmLG makes cells of different color depending on model.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2020, 10:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on February 02, 2020, 08:18:16 pmI wonder if there is any difference in spec, those are 3000mAh INR8650's which should have higher ESR. Vapers tend to use unprotected, high current capacity cells. Although 20mR I see in the datasheet seems very low.They are saying short with a 100mR resistor so:100mR + 20mR ESR => 4.2V / 0.120 = 35A peak current.Some vapes are in the hundreds of mR, but I believe its rare, as the power would just be ridiculously high.Who wants to measure the resistance of their keys?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2020, 10:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 02, 2020, 10:10:04 amBoth Lithium Ion and NiMH are exothermic, so are essentially equivalent in their ability to have runaway thermal effects.NiCd is endothermic.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2020, 10:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 01, 2020, 08:06:52 pmYes, it's just basic (but pathetic) arse covering with the proliferation of 18650 in consumer gadgets. Although LG don't sell them direct to the consumer, their cells will be used by suppliers and even marketed as such. Nothing at all to do with repair as Louis is focusing on.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2020, 10:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on February 03, 2020, 10:14:04 pm20m Ohm is not out of the ordinary for 18650 Li-ion cells. I've come across other Li-ion cells which have an internal resistance of less than 1m Ohm.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2020, 11:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2020, 10:35:28 pmIn what sense pathetic? Much better than Samsung video in theirbattery safety page. Amazing that nobody here blames manufacturers of inherently unsafe vape devices.Why just LG?Samsung disclaimer: "Samsung SDI’s RLIBC are not designed or manufactured for use in ANY vape or e-cigarette device.".Sony disclaimer: "Sony has great concern for the safety of our consumers. We recently became aware that some people may use our cylindrical lithium-ion VTC battery cells ("Li-Ion Cells") in a way that Sony does not intend for them to be used: in eCigarettes and vape pens. Sony has not tested Li-Ion cells in eCigs and vape pens." Speaking of pathetic arse covering - attach

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2020, 11:51:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2020, 10:41:08 pmSo the fact they they test with a 100mR shunt seems very relevant then. Lets say you have a 20mR cell:Dead short test theoretically its dissipating: 882W in the batteryWith 100mR added, its dissipating: 25W in the battery and 123W in the shuntIn the case of a 1mR cell that would be even worse.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2020, 11:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on February 03, 2020, 11:11:39 pmDunno why you think so. Maybe you judge by artistic value. Samsung video actually says about unprotected cells and explains why. LG video is simply scaremongering with little information.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 12:39:44 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 03, 2020, 11:53:15 pmSufficiently enough information is said/shown after timer reaches 00:00 (quote): Handling bare cell places you at risk of severe injury. Consumers should never handle bare cell. Don't buy it, don't sell it. Only necessary information to remember. Samsung video is too long and boring considering attention span of target audience

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 01:30:04 am
content: Quote from: ogden on February 04, 2020, 12:39:44 amSuper ambiguous information which people won't trust and the reason why Louis made that video with zero understanding why that ad exists to begin with.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 01:34:36 am
content: -There's almost 2x more energy in an alkaline D cell (more than 20Wh) than in the best 18650 li-ion (less than 12Wh).-Alkalines contain hydrogen that's flammable/explosive.-Li-ion short circuit current is much higher due to its slightly lower internal resistance (*) and 2.5x higher V.-Metallic lithium (in the anode) if in contact with (humid/moist) air oxidizes quite violently (catches fire/self ignites).(*) It's the Li-Pos that haveextremelylow internal resistances, most canned 18650s are similar to alkaline D cells in that respect.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 01:46:52 am
content: Quote from: ogden on February 03, 2020, 11:11:39 pmSony didn't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a highly produced scaremongering info-mercial that actually contains no real info.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 02:16:06 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 02, 2020, 10:10:04 amBecause he's right? (Right to Repair!)In that 1984 commercial Apple was the beautiful woman but nowadays, Tim is the bad guy on the big screen. You'll change your mind wrt that company you love so much. It took me 29 years no more no less.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 02:50:58 am
content: It was Jobs who introduced that tradition of appearance in a sloppy outfit in front of a gigantic screen with a single word displayed, wasnt it.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 04:26:36 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 02, 2020, 08:58:35 pmBMS has nothing to do with those tests, which basically say that you can abuse the cells that much, and it may damage them, and they might even set fire to something else (something that can happen withanyhigh-energy cell) but they should still not explode nor ignite themselves. If LG's cells don't pass those tests then they have some serious explaining to do.Quote from: ogden on February 03, 2020, 11:11:39 pmIf those vapes all used C or D cells, would companies like Energizer or Duracell write such disclaimers or produce fearmongering videos about it? LG brought it on themselves by trying to tightly control what should really be none of their business. Safety warnings and instructions for handling, yes. "stay away from our batteries", no.Observe that Samsung and Sony's disclaimers are more level-headed and specifically targeted towards vapes, and that's likely only because of the threat of lawsuits mentioned before. Unlike LG, they still want you to buy their products.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 07:38:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2020, 01:46:52 amIf you think that message "Our _bare_ cells are not for consumer use" is not real info - fine. Let me ask: as an EE do you think that everything is fine with bare 18650 cells and products like vape devices that are designed to exclusively use such?Quote from: amyk on February 04, 2020, 04:26:36 amRight.Sony quote: "The Sony Li-Ion Cells are sold to manufacturers and meant to power products like power tools that contain certain safety precautions and mechanisms which meet our quality standards.".Samsung quote: "DO NOT charge individual, cylindrical Lithium-Ion Batteries if you are a consumer or end-user."

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 09:52:24 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 04, 2020, 04:26:36 amDid you actually read the UN38.3? If you did you'd know that the BMS is an integral part of battery pack safety testing. Testing whether the cells withstand physical abuse is just one part of it.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 03:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on February 02, 2020, 08:18:16 pmYes, the modern cell-level safety features are quite remarkable; in fact, I have "verified" all of the listed conditions on a few cells, and I haven't been able to produce a fire on a good-brand 18650 cell, ever. Including over-charging a cell with 30V, 10A supply for an hour or so. A bit of electrolyte smell is all I get.However, there is something you miss: it's the rate ofriskgoing up, as the layers of safety are being bypassed. These cell-level safety layers are good, but not perfectly reliable. They only exist for the worst case (BMS failure, mechanical failure of external case), and need to be cheap on production level. If you have thousands of cells being abused outside normal specifications, some may catastrophically fail, even if the datasheet specifies it shouldn't happen. You may also hit some strange combination of corner cases which isn't covered by the few standardized tests; the cell might comply to the standards, and still fail catastrophically, using a modified test with different parameters.I'm against scaremongering, quite the opposite, I want to say, do whatever you want, the brand cells are quite robust against abuse. Just be aware that you are doing something not originally intended to be that way. Do it on purpose, understand there is a risk, however small, and be safe.Also understand that a manufacturer needs to take a strong stance for such non-intended purpose, for legal reasons. Another option would be to provide protected cells and give consumer support for them; clearly, it's outside their core business.Of course, producing an expensive PR video seems stupid at least, but companies do such things, maybe don't take it too seriously, keep using the cells as you wish.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 04:15:25 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on February 04, 2020, 07:38:19 amTo the technical persion, "bare cell" does mean unprotected and people shouldn't use unprotected cells unless they absolutely know what they are doing. However, LG make 0 attempts to explain "bare cell" vs "protected cell" to the layman, whereas Samsung do. The proper, informative message should be "don't buy unprotected cells" not "don't buy batteries, batteries bad, batteries explode, OMG, SCARY!" which is exactly what they say when they don't provide any explanation. That blankets all other devices besides vapes which are perfectly safe, whereas other companies are targeting vapes.You know what can provide a hell of alot more current and can fit in your pocket (well, if it's big enough)? Those damn car jump packs, the cheap ones of which do have unprotected battery power straight to the output (through some diodes). Where's the scaremongering on those, huh? Don't tell me Joe Public aren't dumb enough to blow them up.QuoteWhat companies should do vs what companies actually do. Their "core buisiness" is "SOLDER IN ALL THE CELLS, EVERYTHING MUST BE DISPOSABLE!" They don't like stuff like powerbanks, lights, and other devices with replaceable cells because it stops them from selling cells to the companies that make tons of disposable crap.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 04:18:40 pm
content: I’m a bit baffled at the sheer number of people here who are anti-safety. LG isn’t stopping you from buying cells. But this might help an electrically ignorant person avoid injury.I think, frankly, that you should be ashamed of yourselves.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 04:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 04, 2020, 04:18:40 pmAn electrically ignorant person is gonna stick their finger in a light socket anyway.Mains is way more dangerous than batteries.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 04:55:59 pm
content: I'm going with IECEX and ATEX. It applies for equipment, which can go into a oil refinery for example.They dont allow most Li-ion, because it is exothermic.If the battery passes IEC 62133-2, IEC 60086-4 or UL 1642, then it is safe to use (there are other 3 criteria, but thats not the point). Most batteries dont pass these tests.The "no explosion no fire" means the battery was probably leaking. I dont think average Joe should handle lithium batteries. For some cells, just dropping it on the floor can cause an internal short circuit, and setting itself on fire, or spit hidroflouric acid into your eyes. Over discharging can damage the internals, and it can burst into flames when charged again.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 05:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 04, 2020, 03:58:11 pmYou have been lucky. Over here the TUV banished battery testing to (disposable) portable units outside the main building after a battery pack caught fire during an overcharging test (their technician connected it wrong so the BMS couldn't prevent it).

author: mark03
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 05:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 04, 2020, 04:18:40 pmAren't they? I mean, it sure sounds to me like they make some effort along those lines, and if the issue of unsafe vaping devices "blows up" (pun intended) sufficiently, it may become more difficult to buy them. As a hobbyist who has legitimate uses for unprotected 18650s, that does concern me.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2020, 06:08:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2020, 10:41:08 pmTo get into the range, a "typical" power-optimized 18650 cell (for example, Samsung INR18650-25R) is around 25 mOhm and an energy-optimized one (e.g., Samsung INR18650-29E) is around 40 mOhm. But, this is at room temperature. As the cell heats up, the resistance drops even further, so for worst-case analysis, the current and power dissipation can be higher.Larger cells of similar technology naturally have lower resistance and a truly large cell (in 50+Ah range) can indeed be sub-1mOhm.QuoteExactly the point; me testing a few cells doesn't prove much. These safety layers are not supposed to always save the day in 100% of cases. The cells have to be inexpensive, lightweight, etc. It's risk management, not ultimate minimization. Most things we do carry a risk of some magnitude.