What do you think about dreary humdrum in datasheets? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 08:58:17 pm
content: Some datasheets have many pages of stuff that is so vaguely related to what an Ic does that my mind goes,andI especially find the TI datasheets atrocious in this regard. Take for example the attached 68 page! datasheet of an TL431. After the description there are a bunch of graphs and application examples and I like all those. Page 25 has a revision history, and that should have been the end of the datasheet. But then, pages 26 though 68 (Yes, that is 42 pages) are filled with dreary humdrum.In the past I've edited many of such datasheets to remove such crud.NXP is another example. They nearly always put a page in front of the datasheet with not more info then "this is a datasheet of chip xxx.Another example are those datasheet collection sites. some of them put one or more pages with advertisements for themselves in front of every datasheet you download from them. For me it is enough to avoid such sites whenever possible.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 09:09:36 pm
content: I can skip waffle, my biggest peeve is data sheets that truncate their graphs, so that you cannot see the whole operating region.LDO vendors often do this to hide nasty spikes, but I'd rather see the issue, than find a surprise later.They may think they tricked the buyer, but I simply then skip their part, andmove to a better datasheet.

author: srb1954
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 09:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 26, 2023, 08:58:17 pmUnfortunately, it is often necessary to have to go through all the dreary humdrum in the datasheet when you are preparing a design for production. In that case it is better to have it attached to the datasheet rather than having to find it from multiple data sources.However, I do agree that the TL431 datasheet has a ridiculously large number of tape and reel packing options for such a simple 3-pin chip.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 09:40:23 pm
content: I had no idea what you meant by "humdrum", thought maybe sales faff or a huge application section. But...the device/package options list and packaging information? I guess if you're doing hobby/prototype/one-off tuff, or you're an ivory tower engineer that's all just humdrum. But if you're actually making things in volume and trying to do a good job of it ALL of that information is important. There's only so much of it because that part has so many packaging options on top of device variants. You need the electrical engineering data, but the people doing the manufacturing design, purchasing, and programming the placement and inspection equipment need all of that other stuff, so the right parts are selected and bought at the right quantities, and they can get loaded into the machines and put on the boards correctly. Yeah, you could separate it out into separate documents, but for such a relatively small amount of data it's way simpler to have one source of truth shared by all stages of the process. Sure, removing the "humdrum" would shave a bit off of the 2MB pdf, but that's just not an amount of storage worth fighting for in this day and age. Especially now, when Samsung has all of that memory lying around and SSDs are so cheap.Now if you want to talk datasheet pet peeves, ones that don't have bookmarks......

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 09:54:30 pm
content: Where's the problem? A datasheet should provide all kind of technical details to fullfill every possible scenario.So because you don't need that, it doens't mean it shouldn't be there.What are you going to achieve adding this drama? Send a requirement to TI to provide custom datasheets for every customer?Just take it as it is, the most useful information you need is at the beginning. Rest is packaging, footprints, ordering codes...Then you have those 2-page chinese datasheets where they barely say "Hi, this is a LDO. Bye". Now that's a problem!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 12:22:30 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 26, 2023, 08:58:17 pmNot to me, I often need that stuff.When buying off Mouser, LCSC, et cetera, I don't trust they always get the footprint right. I take the manufacturer product number, and check the package and the footprint in the datasheet, in the part you call "dreary humdrum".When using EasyEDA, I often create my own footprints (mostly combining or adjusting several options into one). For example, I like to use a 0603+0805 footprint for capacitors and resistors when hand-soldering one-off boards, which matches the 0805 outline, but the gap is the same as for 0603. A quick check over the capacitor and resistor datasheets (specifically, recommended footprints in the "humdrum" parts) verifies everything should work.This has saved me from my own errors a couple of times already, so even if one were to trust the vendors implicitly, it does seem to be useful for hobbyist uncle bumbleforks like myself anyway.Even the Mouser product number page Mouser adds to the datasheets they host, does not bother me, because there are cases where having said links available could save me some time.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 12:39:07 am
content: (disregarding the original post, as it is a "humdrum" on itself attempting to generate unnecessary drama...)Quote from: srb1954 on August 26, 2023, 09:31:31 pmAlthough it seems excessive, such part is so commoditized and old that there are probably a huge variety of customers in full production already using one variant or another... In this case, there is no option other than put all that in the document.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 12:52:52 am
content: Quote from: ajb on August 26, 2023, 09:40:23 pmI find that part in TI datasheets great. I can look into say Digikey or Mouser catalog and easily figure out what exactly particular suffix means, and if it's what I need. I really hate when there is no straightforward way to figure out difference between similarly looking parts with different suffixes. Often it's exactly the same part in exactly the same case but in different factory packaging. But you never know without actually verifying that. Not to say factory packaging is quite important for manufacturing, you don't want to assemble thousands of boards with reels of 250 for example.

author: Konkedout
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 03:17:30 am
content: As a design engineer, I do not give a rat about all of the packaging (tape and reel and cardboard box dimensions) information, nor about the myriad of minor variations in part numbers of the TI datasheets. Also I do not need the disclaimers. "Do not use this in brain surgery!...." etc. If I am buying 10 pieces on cut tape for myself, I select based upon the IC package and distributor stock. If I am selecting for my employer, those details are someone else's problem. I keep a lot of datasheets on my HDD and to save disk space (and get rid of those extra pages) I use pdfresizer.com to exorcise the unwanted pages. Doing that might cut the file size by 30% to 50%.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 03:25:48 am
content: You can say that again!Quotecomplaining about DATA on a DATAsheet might just be a humdrum post in itself!

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 03:27:41 am
content: Quote

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 05:58:19 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 26, 2023, 08:58:17 pmThe front page for the NXP datasheets might date back to the era of faxes when it was important to have a title sheet. The packaging info and related part numbers are important for your PCB layout and ordering. Since we don't have to print them out anymore it's not a big deal.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 07:31:10 am
content: My pet hate is when seemingly comprehensive datasheets comment: See App Note #****FFS, include it !Many sparse datasheets have been culled from my records in favor of more complete ones.Then there are devices that can be used in multiple design modes......all of which need have full info for each mode of use/application.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 11:16:12 am
content: Quote from: Konkedout on August 27, 2023, 03:17:30 amLiterally a recipe for anti DFM (design for not manufacturability). Like you don't give a rat that it causes ambiguity and cost increase further in chain.QuoteUntil it bites you in the ass and many thousands of boards get assembled with a wrong part.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 11:26:45 am
content: Indeed. Not only that, but this can come back to the "design engineer" if the specific BOM item is not available in one or another supply packaging (tray, reel, tube, etc.) and your fabricator either does not support the chosen variant or charges a hefty extra for that. Then the "design engineer" keeps groaning about how "the clueless management keeps asking me to re-qualify parts and re-design old projects while I need to be focused on the next big thing".

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 11:34:46 am
content: Ha! It's seems there're somehingeneersfrom my work here!(They're still arguing there's no problem for applying -15V to a npn b-e junction, "It's just a diode, it'll block it ").Edit: It's because we have no R&D department, the previous boss (Who got fired few months ago) obliterated it years ago and fired everyone.The remaining ingeneers are that kind of snob people, taking coffee and working at snail speed. I catched some making drawings in Paint, WTF!And the drawing was still wrong! How the f** am I seeing 10V here if the diode is... oh wait it's reversed in the schematic!They're probably having difficulties to breath while also reading a datasheet, I would understand they need a coloured version with kid-oriented language, presented by Barney or the TeleTubbies.

author: Konkedout
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 09:32:47 pm
content: I have been engineering since 1975 and trimming .pdf datasheets as soon as I could, and never run into the problem you describe. Details such as cardboard box dimensions are relatively new and we got along without them OK for many years. I do not want to deprive that info from anyone who needs it, but I do not need to keep it on my HDD. It is vaguely like describing the wholesale pallet with which your grocery store receives its corn flakes. I do not care and you probably do not either. If it does not pertain to me designing with it, I do not need it. I have never needed that information in 45 years of design engineering.

author: aeg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2023, 02:46:25 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2023, 07:31:10 amHow about...The information you need is in App Note #****, but the datasheet doesn't mention the app noteThe datasheet says See App Note #****, but App Note #**** is unobtaniumThe datasheet for the current generation part doesn't have theory of operations, that's only available in the datasheet for the predecessor part from 15 years ago, which is a scan of a fifth-generation photocopy, and all the diagrams are solid black blobsThe datasheet for the current generation part doesn't have theory of operations, that's only available in the datasheet for the predecessor part from 15 years ago, which isn't available online and the only way you'd even know about it is if you have the right paper databook and think to check itThe information you need is only available from a post on the vendor's web forumThe information you need was in a post on the vendor's web forum, but the vendor "upgraded" their forum last year and purged all the old messagesThe datasheet says "contact us for information on mode X" and you have to sign an NDA and wait a month for a responseThe datasheet says "contact us for information on mode X" but the guy who knows how the part works retired 6 months ago and nobody at the vendor can help youThe datasheet says "contact us for information on mode X" and the vendor gives you an answer that is prompt, confident, and totally wrong

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2023, 03:32:51 am
content: Quote from: aeg on August 28, 2023, 02:46:25 amAnd some look at me funny about the 10's of GB of datasheets on my hard drives.....all those old onesarevaluable.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2023, 08:57:29 pm
content: >"doctor" in username.>Complaining about datasheets having information in them to make a footprint and for correlating a part number to a package/topcode/etc, and packaging specifications so you can know what size feeders are required.Big shocker here.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 10:47:05 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 28, 2023, 03:32:51 amAnd databooks! Lots of older databooks that have been purged from the internet are still existing in my personal archive.

author: eutectique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 04:42:47 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 26, 2023, 08:58:17 pmNo, that is 43 pages.