Pace ADS200 vs Hakko FX-951 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2023, 02:40:57 pm
content: I have a FX-951 head circa 2007 in very nice shape that I got a good deal on years ago, without the iron or stand, so I have never used it. I have a Hakko 888D that serves me well for the basic hobby soldering I do, but I like my tools/toys so always looking for something a bit “better”. It will cost me about $130 for a new iron and stand for the FX-951. I recently saw that the Pace ADS200 is on sale for $300. Could I get some opinions on the two units vs each other? I think it’s time to move up my soldering station a notch and I have an interested grandson who I could give my 888D to stimulate his interest. Thanks.

author: BlackICE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 02:15:50 am
content: The Pace is better than the 951 but will cost you. Another choice would be to get a clone handle and stand to use with genuine Hakko tips and have the better performance of the 951 vs the 888 at the faction of the cost of a Pace.https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802332669709.html?gatewayAdapt=gloMsite2usaPcglo2usa4itemAdapt

author: Arhigos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 02:38:23 am
content: Pace:+ Better ergonomics, especially when soldering small stuff+ Better performanceHakko:+ Faster tip changing time.+ Cheap aftermarket accessories.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 10:26:58 am
content: Quote from: Arhigos on July 10, 2023, 02:38:23 amWhy would Hakko be faster? You pull out the tip and stick a new one on Pace. On Pace you don't need plastic collar for the tip...

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 12:52:38 pm
content: Thank you all for the comments. I assume by better performance you mean better temp control when extra heat is needed?? Both would have sleep function active, does the Pace come up to temp from sleep faster than the 951? Without an iron I have not used the 951 yet, but my 888D is fiddly to change temps on and I am guessing the 951 is similar. The incremental up and down temp on the Pace looks closest to an analog station. I would have bought the 888 in analog but could not find one new at the time.Cost is not a big issue, though $300 is pretty much my upper limit for a tool like this. As I said I could get the 951 running for $130 plus a couple tips, not a big fan of clone products to save a few bucks unless I am really sure the item is 98% as good as the OEM piece. So for me the Pace should be worth the extra $170 it would cost me over the cost to get the 951 running. If anyone cares to comment on that and the difference between the two, that would be good. I know its tough to assign a dollar amount to an intangible. Thanks again, Dave

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 02:23:00 pm
content: Didn't have a 951 but did have a 888D. I bought the ADS200 a couple or so years ago, and the Pace is far superior. It's not even in the same league. I highly recommend spending a bit extra for the ISB stand so the iron goes to sleep in the stand.Tip changes are going to be just as fast as any other friction-fit, cartridge (i.e. T12) formats. You just pull the old one out and stick the new one in.The ADS200 is really overkill for most hobbyists. I just got tired of dealing with the 888D and I like nice tools, so I definitely over-bought. Have ZERO regrets about it though.If I were budget constrained I'd look at some of the T12 and JBC clones from the likes of KSGER and Aixun.

author: Arhigos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 02:56:13 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 10, 2023, 10:26:58 ambecause you can pull the tip with your bare fingersOn pace you will need a tip removal pad, or special soft pliers

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2023, 03:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: Arhigos on July 10, 2023, 02:56:13 pmOn Hakko that would need a plastic insert for every tip you change.You have funny definition of faster..And I don't use silicon pad but tweezers you get. Pull, insert..

author: Arts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 02:26:07 am
content: Unless you are planning ahead for soldering situations that involve really high thermal mass, ie multilayer boards or boards that use large areas of copper as heatsinks, the extra wattage of the Pace will not be needed. The whole FM-2027 conversion kit for $130 seems like quite the bargain:https://hakkousa.com/fm-2027-conversion-kit.htmlI have the Hakko FM-203, which supports two irons; the FM-2027,70Watts with T15 tips (same setup as used with your FX-951), and the FM-2030, 140Watts with T22 tips. I rarely need the high-powered iron.I have always found it odd that the FX-888D, Hakko's entry-level soldering station, allows for five temperature pre-sets. At least that way you only have to go through the set-up procedure once, then you can just do a "one-button-scroll" to access your desired temperature. Very quick and convenient, when you consider how abysmal their user interface is.Neither the FX-951(nor my FM-203) have this feature. A questionable oversight on what are otherwise excellent stations.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 03:02:56 am
content: After I had my Pace ADS200's a few years I brought a couple of dirt cheap FX951 stations and a handpiece. Only redeeming Hakko feature is their stand is made from metal.The Pace heating profile is less aggressive than JBC near set temp which leads people to underestimate it's performance. The fastest tips will heat up in 3-4s from room temp to 300C/570F+. From standby they take about 2s, it's almost double the power of the FX951 station.In my opinion Pace beats out Hakko and JBC for robustness, reliability, integration, ease of use and setup flexibility. It gets near enough performance to JBC and doesn't have their tip life problems and cost (being almost half the station/cartridge price once the Pace is setup).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 10:03:33 am
content: Quote from: Shock on July 11, 2023, 03:02:56 amThe Pace stands are all metal, too, aren’t they?!?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 11:08:38 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 11, 2023, 10:03:33 amEVERYTHING is made of metal: case, stand and handle... It is a tank...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2023, 04:15:13 pm
content: That’s what I thought. I have a Pace desoldering station and it is, like you say, a tank!

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 05:30:01 pm
content: I don't have an ADS200, but I do have an SX-90 desoldering handpiece with a Pace PS unit, and also a KSGER clone that allows me to use Hakko cartridge tips. Also, a Hakko FR301.A couple of thoughts from that standpoint:The cartridge tip is a night and day difference to a passive type, period. There's just no comparison. This alone completely changed my soldering life. So if the question is whether you should upgrade from the 888 unit, the decision is a no brainer, regardless of which unit you choose. The KSGER I have is great - there's a bunch of mods and stuff available, though my only real concern was a grounded tip and mine has that - and it provides you the great functionality of the Hakko tips for a very low price so there you go. Also, it has great features and functionality in the SW (I'll never understand why Pace has the mechanical switch shutoff; the KSGER handpiece I have does that pretty well with a motion sensor). I personally use Pace accessories for changing the tips, so I'm not sure how that'd differ between the Hakko and Pace (pull out/insert...), but I'd be surprised if there's a substantial difference in practical terms. May take two seconds instead of one, maybe.The SX-90 is a fantastically designed and working unit. It made desoldering fun, uneventful and predictable - it reduced damaging events of sensitive boards and parts to zero. It just works 100% of the time, exactly as you want it to. I also do have an FR301 unit, but in my opinion, the latter is for massive ground planes and... plumbers. It's completely unfit for anything resembling fine work (which is all I do in rework).On a general note on the Pace stuff, this far I am very impressed with the quality and heft of all of it. I love the solder collection cartridge on the SX-90 too, the tips seem to last a long time, and parts and consumables are not really expensive if you factor in how well they work and how long they last (the latter pending more data collection in my case...). Some parts are actually surprisingly cheap. In the case of the Hakko, judging by just my experience of the FR301, it's been very disappointing. I had a heater failing within warranty, tips getting clogged - just a bunch of minor and major inconveniences from what initially felt like a very rugged and solid unit. That, combined with the absolute lack of finesse in use - I'll never understand how having a heavy hammer in your hand is conceived as giving you the dexterity absolutely necessary for this type of work - is a strong deterrent for me in trying more Hakko stuff.That said, their T12 tips are amazing, seems to last forever, and nothing you throw at them seems to expand the reaction and melting effect in any observable manner. A+ on that! There's no reason I have to believe the ADS200 + their tips are not similar. If anything, probably stronger with heavy soldering jobs.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 05:55:24 pm
content: Not to highjack the thread - this may help the OP with some perspective points - but I'd be very interested in thoughts on whether I should upgrade my KSGER + Hakko T12 setup with an ADS200 at this reduced price, which is very tempting... I'm not unhappy with the former, just so impressed with the Pace stuff so far and a strong fan of good tools, that I feel I need to give very careful consideration to biting this bullet before the sale expires. BTW: does anyone know when that may be?...One thing I'm not so happy with the Pace stuff is their confusing systems - SensaTemp, IntelliHeat, AcciDrive... HTH?!... Their only common denominator is the way they assemble these words together. It's then difficult to combine and build actual systems to do work and rework to serve all needs. For instance, the only true system with a cartridge type for soldering seems to be with the AccuDrive system (which doesn't work with any "forced air" handpieces - pushing or pulling air, so to speak). So one cannot really have a single PS with one system on it that can work with all possible handpieces and type of work (except, to my knowledge, one: MBT360, which combines AccuDrive and SensaTemp connectors).I think they could have easily provided more consistency and coherence to their systems and have easier continuity through time. But the fact that they support essentially all systems relatively recent (and not so much) absolves them of much fault in the great scheme of things.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 08:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: Rax on August 06, 2023, 05:30:01 pmRax, please say more about the night vs day difference and how your soldering life completely changed. What are the top ~3-5 biggest differences? Thx

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 09:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on August 06, 2023, 08:40:59 pmHere are some thoughts:The most important difference is the instantaneous and very strong response to the request to melt a certain amount of solder. All passive tips have thermic inertia - take time to ramp up to melt the solder. The moment you touch them on the job spot, their temperature initially drops. They have much higher mass, and the heater - which is much further from the heavier tip, and is physically separated from the tip itself - has much slower response to a request. Fairly frequently, I had a passive tip start melting to just after that get affixed to the mass of solder for a while until it could accrue more heat to work the whole blob. During the time it'd stick I had to keep it steady so I won't lift the pad or worse.The cartridge tips instead do it almost instantaneously, and almost regardless of the size of the request. You'll never have a sense of this initial drop in temperature. If you either apply solder to the tip and pad, or try to reflow a pad with its already existing solder (which could be a large ground plane with massive amounts of old, "unwilling" solder), you can count on extremely quick, effortless delivery of heat to the tip. The ease with which it does that is quite stunning at the beginning. There's just no sense of limited supply of heat to the tip.The tips are essentially indestructible. I have not yet had to trash a Hakko tip, and I did give my current favorite type some long hours of work. I switched to this three or four years ago.I believe they all are hot swap capable (the T12s for sure). Makes it so easy to switch the work to a different task, etc. Very, very convenient.The tips cost - given the service length - is, in effect, a savings opportunity, while you get far better quality of service from them. I have not had Pace tips in my hand or bench, but I assume they're pretty similar - the Hakkos are rugged, ceramic body, and with minimal care they seem to essentially not degrade in time.These are just some quick thoughts, but I'm certain I can come up with more.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 09:43:22 pm
content: Sensatemp - older handpieces/stations (currently still sold).Intelliheat - introduced cartridge based handpieces.Accudrive - newest cartridge based handpieces at 120W.Intelliheat had backwards compatibility with Sensatemp. Accudrive it seems will have a dedicated Sensatemp channel if it's included. Largely the Accudrive series replaces the functionality of the dedicated Intelliheat tools. The Accudrive tools so far TD200 soldering handpiece and MT200 tweezers are aluminum bodied to increase operator comfort. Pace also released an Intelliheat version the TD100A.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 10:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on August 06, 2023, 09:43:22 pmSensaTemp is indeed a very old system, but I wouldn't call it obsolete. In fact, I've seen signs IntelliHeat is being phased out.But everything that's "air-based" is either of these two. AccuDrive only exists on this tipped soldering system that ADS200 is.I don't know where they're heading with all of these, but I'd currently count on AccuDrive to stay with the cartridge tip systems and SensaTemp for eveything else.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 10:34:17 pm
content: Also, AFAIK, cartridge tips with Pace can only be had with AccuDrive systems.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 11:15:09 pm
content: Not all brands seem to support hotswap. Per the manual and operation some seem to be standby, channel off, power off to swap (JBC, Weller, Metcal). Pace and Hakko's T12/15 (at least) seems to be designed for it. Pace stations seem to have the ability to hotswap their handpieces as well, which is quite unique.From my experience Pace tips have good longevity, though I tend to baby mine after losing a few tips on other brands. Aside from the chinese knockoffs the only two brands I've seen having plating issues are JBC and certain Weller models.Fairly sure there is more Accudrive models to come.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 12:50:36 am
content: Quote from: Shock on August 06, 2023, 11:15:09 pmI agree. I think for now, they're keeping the SensaTemp active for everything other than tipped/cartridge soldering. I assume they'll eventually roll every other system to AccuDrive.One aspect where the FR301 wins easily against the FX-90 + PS is precision of tip temperature. After I replaced the heater on the FR301, I got new tips and a proper thermometer (not a high end one, so grain of salt with this) and the FR301 stayed essentially dead on, within a few (very few, like maybe a couple or less) degrees. The SX-90 is not anywhere as dead on, which may be a sure sign of the age of the SensaTemp system. This doesn't preclude the SX-90 from performing as outstandingly as I described it. Also, my Pace rework system is patched together from different parts and units, plus fixing a problem or two, and then getting new tips and filters and other consumables for it all, so I can't really vouch for how a brand new SensaTemp system performs.I don't have confirmation of this, but I think AccuDrive essentially implements some level of true feedback temperature control of enhanced accuracy, precise enough to adequately serve the cartridge type of tip.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 02:41:25 am
content: Quote from: Rax on August 06, 2023, 09:21:25 pmThanks for the description.I'm sure that overall, cartridge tips are much than better than passives at avoiding temp drop - but just to clarify...Does the big difference you describe apply to lead solder as well as no-lead solder? Or in your experience is initial melting followed by temp drop with passive tips mostly something that occurs with no lead solder?Also, I can believe that a large ground plane with massive amounts of unwilling solder can present a challenge but the specific use case I'd most like to understand is a typical through hole component (for example a half watt resistor) with no-lead solder. Is the the improved resistance to temp drop of the cartridge tip in this case (typical through hole component with no-lead solder) really noticeably better?Thx again.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 04:22:15 am
content: Quote from: Rax on August 06, 2023, 10:34:17 pmAmong current models, yes. But as Shock said, there have been two other series with cartridge heater tips: the old HeatWise systems and the later IntelliHeat systems, both using the TD-100 handpiece. (There's even a second-edition IntelliHeat TD-100A using the same milled aluminum grip as the TD-200.)Quote from: Rax on August 06, 2023, 05:55:24 pmSee this snippet of a post I made in a different thread a while ago:Quote from: tooki on June 27, 2021, 01:12:45 pm

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 04:31:01 am
content: Quote from: Shock on August 06, 2023, 11:15:09 pmFWIW, Ersa also allows hot-swapping handpieces.Quote from: Rax on August 06, 2023, 09:21:25 pmI wish people making these blanket statements about passive tips would try an Ersa i-Con series first. They use passive tips, but through good heater design and precision manufacturing, they get you probably 90% of the performance while retaining the advantages of passive tips. In practice, the i-Con series performs the same as JBC. I've used both i-Con and JBC extensively, and both are excellent. (While tip swaps on JBC are faster, I prefer the i-Con handpiece and station ergonomics. Neither has a decisive performance advantage or disadvantage.)

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 06:23:56 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 07, 2023, 04:31:01 amI'm not sure this is helping the OP at all.If their choice is between numerous options offering them 100% of the performance of cartridge tips on a very wide range of prices (including extremely affordably, and some on a deep and infrequent discount for a premium station) vs. one very expensive and singular option for a passive tip that's offering 90% of that performance...??I heard good things on Ersa - when I was looking for an alternative to my prior station it was one on the short list - but once I looked at the fundamentals of cartridge tips (as a radically different concept), and definitely once I tried that concept, I have found no reason to look back. Engineering-wise, I find no contest on this concept being better along the points I made.But I'd be interested in hearing your take on the advantages of passive tips.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 05:40:23 pm
content: The OP already has a cartridge based handpiece/station so discussion on conventional soldering tips is a bit off topic.Ersa is an exception as they have decent performance due to trying to eliminate latency in the thermal response. Low cost tips since they have no integrated heater, but stuck using the screw on tip collar system to fasten tips. On larger tips the collars come preinstalled.This video 21m10s shows Ersa Icon Nano tip swapping. In the manual it says to switch off and let cool to approx 40C/104F. So while you could assume this model is technically hotswappable the tight coupling could cause issues.Heaters and collars getting stuck to tips is generally inherent to the coupled design, so best to read the manual first in each case. For instance it says in the Pace PS90 manual which is a "heater over tip" style iron to swap while hot (rather than cold). Ersa Icon1 says to let it cool down. Hakko FX888/936 doesn't mention it but as it's a bare ceramic heater you need to be careful. I suspect that is why Hakko made them so loose fitting.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 08:18:58 pm
content: FYI, the I-Con Mk II line just released no longer use the separate screw collars, but integrated bayonet collars (first introduced with the I-Con Trace). One of the stands enables one-handed swapping.For what it’s worth, regardless of what Ersa says, everyone hot-swaps I-Con tips anyway. You just have to tighten the new tip, give it a second to heat up, and then tighten it again to account for the tip’s thermal expansion.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 08:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: Rax on August 07, 2023, 06:23:56 amIt wasn’t a suggestion for the OP so much as a gentle condemnation of the people who always insist that passive tip systemscan’tbe good. The I-Con series is excellent, not the terrible stuff of older passive tip systems.As for the advantage: it has the potential to be cheaper. Most I-Con tips are quite affordable. In Switzerland, for example, a basic chisel tip is around $10, vs $30 or more for JBC. (And that Ersa tip is more durable, too.)In USA, there is absolutely no point in looking at Ersa because their North American pricing is insane. (In Europe, the prices are competitive and availability is excellent.)

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 08:56:18 pm
content: Here is the tip in turn video. Hopefully they won't discover that it wears out later. But that is about as easy as it gets. Handling them like that is still a bit too close to the hot part, but hey it beats unscrewing it and burning yourself anyway (not that I care much about being burned).You're right about pricing in the US crazy expensive, good looking chassis design though.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 03:00:09 am
content: The video including the Ersa reminded me of another advantage of the cartridge tip types (typically! I haven't tried them all):the tip is very short, which makes the distance from the hand to the spot under work also very short. Additionally, the tip assembly is very light. All of it making for great dexterity, enhances quality of the work, and makes soldering more fun. It seems the Ersa has a relatively short tip too, so it does well in that department. Probably explains the excellent overall performance as reported by tooki (not only for the reasons just above, but likely also providing good heat transfer from heater element to the tip).I've never had that specific Ersa, but it looks like tip changes are not very convenient. Not sure why they use that system, and while it seems overly complicated to me, I've no doubt it's backed by excellent engineering. And I'm sure practice works that out pretty well too.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 03:08:21 am
content: Quote from: Rax on August 08, 2023, 03:00:09 amYep, the Ersa has an extremely short tip-to-grip distance, better even than JBC’s cartridge heaters. I think Pace might be a tad shorter still. (The Ersa handpiece is extremely comfortable, I prefer it over JBC’s. Haven’t held the current Pace.)

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 09:38:50 am
content: Pace's TD200 is fairly slim, has a mild taper near the grip. Less bulky up front than handpieces with external grips. Does not taper off to the back, well balanced. It weighs about the same as other slim cartridge based handpieces but slightly shorter.Where it's unique is the whole body is one piece of aluminum, designed this way so it stays cool, close to body temp. The strain relief is in the handpiece and everything can be dismantled, cleaned or accessible for repair. While the aluminum design is about 5 years old the general design is about 20 years.Here's the SDG finger measurement (in imperial).

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 01:32:31 pm
content: Here are a couple of pictures with my T12 handpiece (I believe it's aluminum with a rubber grip).Mind you, I've used this single tip primarily now for years, so there's some oxidation and it's not the best looking tip I've ever seen, but there's zero loss of functionality even after so much time and plenty of long, intensive jobs. Diligent cleaning - wet sponge and brass wire ball - keeps it operating optimally work session after work session.