Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 07:52:23 pm
content: I have been using the Dremel 4000 and Workstation for around 2 years. I have been using it with ordinary drill bits.The problem is that these bits go blunt very quickly and require excessive force to drill through.Recently I bought a range of CNC drill bits which all have the same stem 3.2mm diameter with various drill sizes. These cut very well, do not go blunt, they go on like forever.However recently those CNC drill bits have started to snap, today I snapped around a dozen! I had to revert to using the old style drill bits.I am wondering what the problem might be.I am guessing:1) the collet has defirmed and allows the bit to wobble.2) the Dremel 4000 itself has got unbalanced and wobbles.3) the Workstation does not plunge down truly vertically and goes in at an angle thus snapping the bitsConsidering that after I snapped around 6 CNC drill bits on as many holes, and then reverted to using the old style (thin) drill bits, and did not snap any, would the problem be on the collet?

author: DmitryL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 07:55:53 pm
content: Dremel Workstation is a plastic wobbling garbage.I bought a proxxon drill and stand (slightly more expensive than dremel) and have no problems at all with 0.5mm tungsten carbide drills.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 08:13:42 pm
content: I'd definately strip the collet and clean it in case grud has got up there and is responsible for non concentricity. The Dremels are made to a price and I'd also check the arbor bearing for play, invert the Dremel and float a little thin lubricant into that bearing. Something like Inox or sewing machine oil.Do you use it at full speed, for HSS bits I use slow speeds but I only use Phenolic PCB's that are much easier to work with than FR4.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 08:19:01 pm
content: Quote from: DmitryL on July 03, 2015, 07:55:53 pmcompletely aggree !search on this forum, claims against dremel stands are not rare ...

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 08:23:30 pm
content: Yep, the dremel workstation quality is worse than low.It really is more like a kids toy drill than something usable.Any angle misalignment or wobble will break carbide drills and the dremel workstation has so much play in the system I'm surprised you weren't breaking normal drill bit too

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 08:30:16 pm
content: Get rid of that plastic piece of junk! That drill stand is semi-usable for drilling wood only.If you are using CNC bits, they are very brittle and a slightest amount of play in the stand that would just flex the normal bit will snap these - as you have discovered.If you want decent gear, buy one of the Proxxon drill stands, that is really a piece of machinery and not a plasticky toy. Or build a proper, stiff drill stand for your Dremel, even though Dremel tends to have quite a bit of runout, especially if you are using it for other things than drilling too.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 08:55:56 pm
content: I have found the "Proxxon BFB 2000" and the "Proxxon MICROMOT MB 200" - I am not sure I can attach my Dremel 4000 to either of these two. There is £100 difference between the two.Also this: Bosch 2608180009 Drill Stand DP 500http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-2608180009-Drill-Stand-500/dp/B0014180RO/ref=sr_1_5?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1435953613&sr=1-5&keywords=drill+stand

author: adranp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 09:17:08 pm
content: Same problem here... I was also trying to use a Dremel 4000 and 220 stand to drill into FR4 pcb's using HSS bits... Broke a couple of 0.8 and 1 mm while doing no more than 20 holes...I'm also looking into Proxxon tools though I've seen a couple Proxxon tools dying without any real reason..Was thinking of a Proxxon MF 70 tool with the CNC automation kit for it... Any experience with it? Or any recommendation?

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 10:08:34 pm
content: I know nothing about the proxxon, but when thinking of using a mill for a drill press don't forget that the spindle to column distance is smaller on a mill for rigidity. A little googling suggests this is 82mm on the proxxon mill, which will practically limit the size of the boards you can drill to 16cm wide.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2015, 10:30:09 pm
content: Well, I've got one of these POS 220 stands and a Dremel Multi-pro and NEVER broken a bit, even 0.6mm. Got it only for PCB work, although it is infrequently used.The POS homemade unit it replaced would make the drills whip around uncontrollablyso I replaced it.You might find lubrication of the bottom bearing will help reduce any play and bit breakages, remember TCT won't bend at all.EDITThe throat measurement of a Demel 220 stand is 105mm

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 12:07:58 am
content: Quote from: akis on July 03, 2015, 08:55:56 pmOne is a mill/drill stand, the other is a drill stand.You can get an adaptor collar (e.g.) that replaces what Dremel call the 'housing cap' & fits the Proxxon stand.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 02:11:21 am
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on July 03, 2015, 10:08:34 pmYeah, I have one and without measuring I'd say that's about right. The TBM 115/220 drill press has closer to 140mm throat depth and is perfectly adequate for drilling pc boards. That's mainly what I use mine for.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2015, 05:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on July 03, 2015, 10:08:34 pm16cm is column to spindle for the Proxxon Micromot stands, e.g. the MB140/s so you can drill up to about 32cm max. I don't know how it is for the TBM and TBH dedicated drills, but they are about the same size from what I remember.Proxxon has also a vertical milling machine - the MF70, perhaps you were thinking about that one?

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 06:05:14 pm
content: QuoteYes, I was replying to the post directly above mine rather than the OP. Probably should have used a quote.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 06:08:45 pm
content: I had a look at the proxxon drills and at my Dremel 4000 and my Dremel is quite the beast. I am not yet ready to bin it. I hope it has not lost its balance.Would anyone suggest a way to measure the "balance" of the drill (for lack of a better technical term)?

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 06:18:57 pm
content: As other says, Dremel is plastic garbage. I've tried to use Dremel for PCB drilling and had the same problem as you.Something that loose its balance after two years it's not using ball bearings as Proxxon does. Or the force you applied has stressed the gears.Also the Dremel drill stand is quite a plastic toy.I switched to Proxxon some years ago and it's another world. There is not even comparison. I understand that you don't want to toss that, but IMO, it doesn't worth the effort to fix it: I fear that you will never have a perfectly balanced drill with a Dremel chassis/stand.Quote from: akis on July 05, 2015, 06:08:45 pmHmm, no.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 06:22:17 pm
content: Clamp in a vice and use a dial gauge on a magnetic stand to measure the chuck end ( place a 3.2mm drill in the collet, a broken one will do as you just want a round surface) play as you press the chuck from side to side, and then again measure as you rotate the bit one full revolution. The side to side pressure tells you the play in the bearing and the rotation tells you the eccentricity of the shaft.If it did before and is breaking drills now the bearing at the chuck end needs to be replaced. Have fun with the adjustable reamers, I will be doing so tomorrow putting in a new shaft into a bush. Old one bent for some reason, and the easiest was to have a new one machined from a block of stainless steel. The reamer cost 10 times what the shaft did, though it does have other uses in the machine on other shafts. Should only take me about 5 hours to get the 0.2mm shaved off the bushing in there and align the shaft properly.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 06:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: akis on July 05, 2015, 06:08:45 pmOnly if you compare it by sheer size.Quote from: akis on July 05, 2015, 06:08:45 pmLike this, using a dial gauge:Just use a the smooth part of a drill bit (or thin rod) as the shaft against which you are measuring. You can get the gauge from some hardware stores, otherwise you can get a cheap one from eBay.BTW, the classic video demonstrating the difference between a Dremel drill stand and the Proxxon ones is this one:

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 06:55:39 pm
content: Could be a wiped out collet or gunk between the collet and shaft too. Hopefully that's the case because it looks like the front bearing and armature are an assembly on the Dremel 4000.EDIT: I should point out that this is some wishful thinking, but easy to check and cheap to fix. It is more likely the bearing that is shot or the bearing is somewhat loose in the housing.If you don't have a dial gauge you can rig up something like an uneven see-saw to amplify the shaft movement by an order of 10 or so. You should be able to see .02mm movement easily that way if you back the long end of the see-saw with a marked card or something like that.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 07:24:41 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on July 05, 2015, 06:55:39 pmIf you check out the video I have posted comparing the Dremel stand to the Proxxon one, you will see that even brand new Dremel has a lot of runout and is vibrating like crazy. That could be enough to break thin bits, IMO.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2015, 07:38:39 pm
content: I couldn't agree more, and have had nothing but bad experiences with Dremels. However the OP reported being able to use his setup successfully until recently. Maybe his was on the good side of the bell curve.

author: FrankT
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 02:39:42 am
content: The dremel collets are soft aluminium. Tighten the nut by hand - don't use the spanner or you will deform the collet.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2015, 08:40:30 am
content: Quote from: adranp on July 03, 2015, 09:17:08 pmI CNC converted the MF70 and think it's excellent with one caveat - it's small. If that's not a problem then it's a very capable mill.https://0xfred.wordpress.com/category/cnc/mf70/Getting back to the OP's issues, I went for a Proxxon TBM 220 drill press. I've not used it for PCB drilling yet, but have abused it at the upper end of it's capabilities (4mm holes in steel and stainless angle iron) and was impressed how well it coped.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 07:59:12 pm
content: I bought the Proxxon FBS 240/E drill (mains powered, 100W, up to 20,000 rpm) and the Micromot MB 200 drill stand.There was an "accusation" made in this thread sometime ago that the Dremel 4000 was breaking my carbide drill bits because its ball bearings had some play.Here are my first impressions of the Proxxon FBS 240/E and the Micromot MB200 drill stand.The Proxxon drill makes less noise than the Dremel, and also promises high torque at low revs. However so does the Dremel 4000. I suspect both drills are the same quality except the Dremel is almost twice as powerful and much faster (35,000 rpm vs 20,000 rpm).The Dremel Workstation drill stand has a lot of plastic and a lot of play. This was suspected to be a major contributor to broken drill bits.I am always talking about steel carbide drill bits with a common shank diameter of 3.2mm. I have been using these in preference to any other drill bits, because they do not wear off. They make perfect holes time after time.The Micromot MB 200 is visibly much smaller than the Dremel Workstation. However it looks to be made of metal parts without any plastic, where it matters. For example the Dremel Workstation has a plastic drill holder, a plastic attachment to the drill pillar, and finally a plastic pinion for the plunger action (which gave me additional problems).The Micromot MB 200 has all metal parts and very good reviews, however here are the (terrible) faults even when compared to the silly Dremel Workstation.1) The drill base hole, where the drill bit plunges into, is misaligned and positioned a few mm forward (towards the user) so that the drill bit barely misses the metal! How can that even be possible?! Even if I had made this out of clay I'd have positioned the base hole more accurately.2) The little torsion screw that secures the drill onto the pillar is too small and requires considerable force to lock the drill in place. At the same time you are trying to hold the drill stable so as to adjust the height and center it over the tiny base hole, so the process is hard, much harder than the Dremel Workstation which has a large lever screw which you can easily turn with one hand while holding the drill steady. Every time an adjustment to the height and/or centrering needs to be made, it is a pain.3) There is no easy way, no practical no way, to twist the drill horizontally. On the Dremel there is a large knob which you turn to release the angular movement, and then you can turn the drill horizontally in one smooth action. This allows you to change drill bits and collets easily and painlessly because the bits do not fall off in the horizontal position. On the Micromot it is a nightmare. As the drill does not turn you have to firstly raise it on the pillar, which has its own challenges, then hold the spindle lock in while with the other hand you are tightening the collet in place. Except you need a third hand to hold the drill bit in. A practical solution is to place the whole drill stand on its side so as to change the drill bit using only two hands. Someone forgot to tell the Germans that humans generally come with two hands.4) The drill base is unecessarily narrow, really narrow, and it is all too easy to rock it from side to side as you are working on the job. You could bolt it on the workbench, but then you'd not be able to lie it sideways to change bits. WHy the base is so narrow I do not know. The Dremel Workstation's base is almost twice as wide.5) Even though all metal, there is still considerable play on the drill, because of the plunger mechanism. It is rack and pinion but there is play in the rails it slides through. Almost as much play as the all plastic Dremel Workstation.6) At the top position the plunger's handle is completely loose, rattles, with considerable play and makes you think it has not been put together properly. I may have to open it to see.7) The rack and pinion action is terrible. It is anything but "smooth" and there is a spring that attempts to return the drill to the top position, but the spring is too weak, so the action feels kind of jerky, incosistent, and most importantly the drill does not return to the top. Applying generous grease did not improve matters. The "solution" is to set the drill higher so that the spring is well tensioned at the bottom position.I bought special Proxxon collets to use with my carbide steel drill bits (and other bits). The Proxxon broke two 1.2mm drill bits in two holes. Just like the Dremel did, as soon as the drill bit is 1 mm or more past the hole, you can feel the vibrations of the tip, and milliseconds later it snaps. This might also indicate that the drill bits are not straight in which case it is neither the Dremel's or the Proxxon's fault.9) I replaced the carbide steel bits with the more common HSS or whatever drill bits, and used the appropriate Proxxon collets. I was able to drill two PCBs that way. Compared to the Dremel Workstation the base is so narrow and the assembly feels so light.All in all I am not that impressed with the Micromot MB 200 drill stand.

author: adranp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 08:10:16 pm
content: Because I was having the same problem as you :akis I went on with Proxxon MF 70..Overall, I'm extremely pleased by the quality of the mill...I have already transformed it to a CNC (and I can control it very easy manually now) and drilling down to 0.6mm is now a super easy job...I've made a few hundred drills with my MF70 mill - with 0.6mm and 0.8mm carbide steel bits and no broken bits till now..I highly recommend this even if it's not very easy to drill with it as long as it's not converted to CNC.Best regards..

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 08:38:09 pm
content: Akis,I agree the return spring is weak in the stand. Also, there is some play, but it sounds like yours has more than normal. I would suggest you go over it carefully to check all of the proper screws are tight. I had similar issues with mine (MB140) until I did so.I find the easiest way to change drill bits it so remove the tool from the stand. With the carbide bits, you don't even need to change the drill height. Just put the drill back in and lock it down. (The mysterious problems you are having locking the drill in place, notwithstanding).I have bought three of these presses, and they are all good. I have two Proxxons and two Dremel tools, and I use them all! No brand loyalty, here. The Proxxon drill stand should be better than what you're seeing. I rarely break a carbide bit (and I use the adjustable chuck).I have the mains and the 15V Proxxon tools. For Dremel, I have a Li Ion and a 35,00 rpm mains unit. Runout is no contest on my units. Proxxon is miles ahead. They are good enough for orthopedic surgery, IMO. I still use my Dremel tools just as much, or maybe more. Li ion is plain handy, and the mains Dremel has more speed/power. It just depends on what you're using it for.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 09:01:11 pm
content: "The mysterious problems you are having locking the drill in place, notwithstanding"You tighten the screw in and it feels "sufficient". But it is not, and it needs much more tightening. The lever is too small and awkard. The Dremel's lever is twice or triple the size."Also, there is some play, but it sounds like yours has more than normal. "I have gone over it, and it is not terrible, but not what I'd expect from the MB 200.Now the question is why do the carbide drills break like this? Where did you buy yours from? It may be mine are crap.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 09:03:05 pm
content: Why do people attempt to using these drill bits in the wrong equipment ?Real PCB drill bits are supposed to be run by a spindle designed for them. Typical drill speeds are 80.000 to 200.000 RPM with very specific feed and retract rates.Using a Dremel to drive that ? bonkers !

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 09:10:59 pm
content: I would never use one in either of my personal Dremels. (I'm sure some are better than others!). My Proxxons are a different animal, altogether. I have even used small carbide pcb bits for milling (very carefully) in my Proxxon tools. No idea on the brands. I just buy mine on Amazon.Favorite thing about using carbide bits on a hand press, the FR-4 comes off in long strands that fly off, so it doesn't obscure the view of your next hole.QuoteOdd. I have looked at the 200, and the lever doesn't look functionally different than the 140. I find the lever too big on mine. It gets in the way. I grind the end off and remove it. I just use the nearest screwdriver to torque the tool holder. And it's not hard, at all. "Finger tip tight" and done. Something sounds off with your combo. Tool made on Monday, tool holder made on Friday?

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 09:43:42 pm
content: Quote from: FrankT on July 09, 2015, 02:39:42 amBetter toss the collets altogether.My Dremel 4000 ate drill bits for lunch like there was no tomorrow with this soft aluminium crap.But since I replaced it with a Chuck (Dremel 4486), I've never had a broken drill bit that wasn't my own fault.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 06:49:01 am
content: I have aluminium, brass and Proxxon's own steel collets.What has been very puzzling for me is that for a period of time I used the tungsten carbide drill bits, with 3.0mm shank and 0.8, 1.0 and 1.2 mm tips, and they were perfect. They cut very accurate holes, very neat, and they do not wear off.Their quality was miles ahead of any other drill bit I had ever bought, be that HSS or "cobalt" or whatever else.I was using them on the "plastic" Dremel Workstation using the Dremel 4000 drill and aluminium/brass collets.Then, suddenly one day, they started to snap, one after the other, and I started investigating the reasons.It could be the collet that had worn off, or somethoing wrong with the drill itself, eg the bearings, but this does not explain why the brand new Proxxon drill with brand new steel collets broke two tips instantly.It might be the drill stand. After all the Dremel Workstation is plastic and the tip wanders under the best circumstances. But this again does not explain why they also broke on the Micromot MB 200.Another suspision is that neighter the Dremel Workstation nor the Micromot MB 200 are truly vertical. By that I mean that while the plunger moves the drill vertically, the tip is at an angle, so the lever action pushes the tip sideways and snaps it. I do not know how to examine whether the drill is 100% vertical in relation to the base and in relation to the up-down action. It could be at an angle in all 3D directions, eg backward, or forward, or a little sideways.I will have to experiment more.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 06:59:22 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 08, 2015, 09:10:59 pmOK, so firstly the level as I said is half or less the size of the Dremel's lever. In addition "finger tight" will not do at all, it requires significant force, I doubt for example my wife would be able to do it, while at the same time trying to hold the assembly still.And please look at the drill hole at the base of the stand. It is NOT centered with respect to the drill! I can see no adjustments. It means that hole was drilled in the wrong position at the factory?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:31:47 pm
content: Look at the base from the bottom. It's die cast. If the hole is finish reamed off-center, it will be obvious. The hole goes where it goes. They probably use the same mold for the 140 and the 200, but the dimensions of the press head are slightly different. The 140's are centered as well as my eye can tell.As far as the tool holder goes, that might be different, too. FWIW, the tool collar should measure 786-790 mils in diameter, per my experience. Were it me, I would return that press and buy the 140. It doesn't matter how short the lever, I could tighten the holder with a 1" section of flimsy wooden Q tip.If you suspect a bad batch of drill bits, you could check by examining them carefully while rolling them on the edge of a flat surface.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:52:55 pm
content: I have complained to Proxxon about the offset hole and they have replied that it happens sometimes !!!! and they are sending me a "spacer disk".

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 08:57:06 pm
content: Quote from: akis on September 09, 2015, 08:52:55 pmYikes!