Is this really likely? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 06:09:14 pm
content: News article states that cell phone connected to it's charger fell into tube with 14 year old bathing and electrocution resulted. That just seems like some strange bad luck.What do others think? If the charger was outputting lethal voltages wouldn't the phone itself havefailed long before talking a bath with the phone?http://abc7ny.com/news/14-year-old-girl-electrocuted-when-phone-drops-in-bathtub/2205378/

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 06:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on July 11, 2017, 06:09:14 pmHappened in the UK a few months ago. We didn't know what charger it was though; knock-off or legit, safety marked type then. The link on KCBD doesn't say yet either.So, is it really likely? Two people in a few months that have hit the news (and here), so yes, it is likely (if you use a cheap knockoff!).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 06:18:18 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on July 11, 2017, 06:09:14 pmNope. The phone only cares that there's only 5V difference between the two wires. It doesn't care if they're both going +/-120V AC, so long as they're doing it in unison with 5V difference between them.That said: Chargers aren't supposed to be doing that. This must have been some cheap-ass knock-off charger if it wasn't fully isolated from the mains.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 06:23:11 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on July 11, 2017, 06:15:35 pmTeenagers using the phone in the bath? It's more likely than you think.

author: amirm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 06:26:03 pm
content: It says that her hands were burned which says she did not drop it in the but but rather, the shock came as she was using it. Maybe there was water splashing on the charger itself, creating a path for high voltage AC to carry to the tub.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 06:30:14 pm
content: 99.9999% chance they were using a POS knockoff charger. Don't cheap out on anything that plugs into mains.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 06:30:31 pm
content: Quote from: amirm on July 11, 2017, 06:26:03 pmWe don't know the details. But we know from BigClive (and others) that some chargers, especially really cheap cap-drop, have the chassis at mains potential.Burned hand though can mean anything from a blister to charred flesh :/

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 07:16:50 pm
content: Since when do you have an electrical outlet near the bath or in the bathroom at all?In my bathroom, there are no electrical outlets at all.I have never seen a house with one here at Israel.But anyways, this is also her fault. You really can't leave your phone for 15 minutes?

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 07:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: ZeTeX on July 11, 2017, 07:16:50 pmIt's standard in the US to have outlets in the bathroom. How else do you use hairdryers, curling irons, electric shavers, electric toothbrushes, etc.? Usually they're GFCI-protected though, I'm not sure how she got around that.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 07:22:43 pm
content: Quote from: ZeTeX on July 11, 2017, 07:16:50 pmYou don't even have shaver sockets?In any case, in a world where every teenager can't stay off Instagram or Snapchat enough time to shave their armpits, is it any wonder people are bringing mains adapters into places they shouldn't? Especially since many phones are coming water-resistant.This is a fault of parents and the education system but at 14 it should be reasonable to think that people have a respect for electricity. Then again, some don't when it comes to guns...

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 07:35:20 pm
content: almost Darwin...almost

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 08:18:48 pm
content: Must be a pretty old house, GFCIs have been required on bathroom outlets since 1971.If the charger came with the phone, there's some really deep pockets to go after. Go, lawyers, go!

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 09:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 11, 2017, 08:18:48 pmOur house was built in 1989 and didn't have a GFCI on the bathroom outlet. When we remodeled our master bath, we installed one. Got a funny look from the inspector when he came to check the new plumbing as if to say, I don't think that was there before. We didn't say anything, we didn't want to pull an electrical permit for installing it. It is wired correctly and works as it should, at least it passes the self test.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2017, 10:04:37 pm
content: This is their fault, if it was fake, for buying shitty pink USB chargers...from China, but then again outside of Bigclive how many PSAs are there warning about those things? They are even dumber if they don't have any sort of RCD in the bathroom such as an in-socket GFCI or one one the whole circuit. However, it could have failed, most people don't test them. It could also have been a total ground failure to the house and current flowed back through neutral, if they had a shitty cheap breaker too, reverse current may not have tripped it.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 12:24:49 am
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on July 11, 2017, 07:20:10 pmWell, I guess you can get an outlet but I have just never seen a bathroom with one.Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on July 11, 2017, 07:22:43 pmNever heard about shaver sockets, had to google it. No, we don't have such things as far as I know, or at least never seen one.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 01:29:07 am
content: Nowadays they need to make bathrooms with places to hold your tablet PC so you can see it while washing up/shaving. Thank God all these devices use batteries, thats all I can say.(makes mental note to check if electric toothbrush charger might be creating RFI)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 01:35:26 am
content: Thats the way people are when they are that age.I know I was addicted to talking on the phone when I was 15..Quote from: ZeTeX onTodayat 13:16:50

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 01:51:59 am
content: The US doesn't have anything like a shaver outlet. We have standard 120v15A sockets in our bathrooms, and they should be GFCI. Not to mention most appliances intended for use in wet places (Hair dryers, shavers, air conditioners) have GFCIs built into the plugs.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 02:42:52 am
content: In response to the OPs question no it is not likely. It is quite rare and requires a combination of bad equipment and dumb actions. That is why it made the news. The rarity and stupidity of the event won't keep people from proposing new layers of rule and regulations to make it even rare and require an even higher level of stupidity.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 04:12:47 am
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on July 11, 2017, 06:30:14 pmIts possible cheap 3rd party chargers are a part of it, but even the OEM/top tier/original/expensive chargers have their limits. Although they don't advertise an environmental specification as we are accustomed to with professional equipment you can be sure there are limits to the humidity and temperature which will prevent the device operating and possibly cause a hazard.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 07:52:32 am
content: Quote from: ZeTeX on July 11, 2017, 07:16:50 pmYep, common in Australia too, I've never seen a bathroomwithoutpower outlets.But yes, I agree, people are way too attached to their phones these days. I have areas deep inside my building at work with no reception on any carrier and it's rather soothing.

author: buck converter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 03:10:59 pm
content: https://www.quora.com/A-14-year-old-girl-in-Texas-was-electrocuted-in-her-bathtub-The-cause-was-a-cell-phone-charger-Is-this-reasonable?share=36228f94&srid=uDC7t.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 03:52:13 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on July 12, 2017, 04:12:47 amStill wouldn't explain why the safety breaker didn't work. So either it was faulty (checking is important), or missing entirely, in which case it was the homeowner's fault for having obviously dangerous electrical in the house.

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 04:17:08 pm
content: at some point we just have to take the safety labels off everything and let nature take its course

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 04:26:04 pm
content: I thought at least one of these cases involved a mains extension cord, where the charger and the live end of the mains extension went into the bath.Should definitely have a GFCI... and test those often!Actually NOT having an outlet in the bathroom could be more dangerous, since that might lead to extension cord use, and would likely not have a GFCI.I use hand held electronics in the bath, but normally take showers, which preclude their use. I would never use anything plugged in, though.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 04:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on July 12, 2017, 03:52:13 pmNot at all unusual. My house was built in 1956. All the outlets are two prong with no ground wire running to the outlets. The bathroom outlets were replaced with GFCIs. But several outlets in the kitchen where just replaced with regular 3 prong outlets (not GFCI) with the grounds not connected!So yes, people do stupid things.Several articles mention an extension cord:http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-looking-teen-s-reported-electrocution-cellphone-bathtub-n782011QuoteShe could have grabbed the phone and pulled the extension cord and charger into the water. Any number of things could have happened.

author: Hensingler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2017, 04:39:51 pm
content: The reporting and conclusions drawn from this event are appalling.A cell phone charger with that kind of fault doesn't need a bathroom to kill you, it only helps. Hard to believe such a fault occurred while she was in the bath and evidence of such a fault would remain and was not mentioned in any report I saw.IMO the most likely event was she leant over the side of the bath to plug the charger into an extension lead and touched the live pin on the crappy US mains plugs. A solid metallic contact with mains live and a good contact to earth through the bathwater and plumbing.The conclusions to be drawn have nothing to do with phone use (which is about the only thing the crappy reporting talked about). They should have been on the value of GFIs and to be very careful plugging things into the mains while in the bath and preferably don't.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 01:31:57 am
content: Additional details about this sad story:https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/07/17/texas-teen-electrocuted-in-bathtub-final-text/23033903/

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 01:42:19 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 18, 2017, 01:31:57 amAhah. So, she did use an extension cord and it was frayed. It wasn't the phone or charger at all.I can only assume she plugged it into the hallway instead of a GFCI outlet in the bathroom (or it was an old house without GFCI outlets in the bath).Very said.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 03:01:13 am
content: Quote from: timb on July 18, 2017, 01:42:19 amYes, it was an insulation problem indeed, but not from inside the charger.Well, ultimately if one is really desperate for charging (which they shouldn't), perhaps use one of theseportable chargers.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 04:04:17 am
content: This is not about phones or chargers. This is more about the safety hazards of mains electricity near grounded plumbing. There should be PSA about ensuring that you have ground fualt breakers near plumbing and make sure they pase safety inspection. This would have happened whether she was using a charger or any appliance, the fact is the house was either unsafe or she was stupid and bypassed the GFCI with another plug (a cord could have just been from the sink to the tub though). People need to be taught better or win the Darwin award!SIDE NOTE: If you want to see the dangers of phone use, read the related article.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 02:06:19 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on July 18, 2017, 04:04:17 amIt could have been. However, even without knowing any additional details people jumped to conclusions and made all this to be about chargers, crappy US plugs, etc. The opportunities to bash/rant are limitless.Quote from: Cyberdragon on July 18, 2017, 04:04:17 amIn the world of Youtube and DVRs, PSAs really don't work as well as they used to. Besides, IMO she had a hint of danger awareness by putting the connection in a dry towel, but forgot that mistakes happen when you are distracted, tired, in hazardous places, etc. Also, as far as we can tell from the tweet, she could have plugged the cord anywhere in the house, through GFCI or not.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 04:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 18, 2017, 02:06:19 pmWhich is not unfounded, because it's not the first time somebody has been electrocuted from a crappy knockoff charger. It might not have happened this time, but it's happened before and it'll continue to happen in this race to the bottom.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 05:08:12 pm
content: Back to the original question: Is it likely?According to this report from US Consumer Product Safety Commission:https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/2009electrocutions.pdfQuote0.228 deaths per year per million population.You are more likely to die from (...) than by electrocution using a consumer product.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 06:49:32 pm
content: Electroboom's take on it:

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 05:48:29 am
content: Quote from: rfeecs on July 18, 2017, 05:08:12 pmThat is an impossible question to answer, since it can be qualified in several ways - and the definition of "likely" is unspecified. I would tend to respond with something like: "It would bemorelikely in situations where people make no consideration of basic electrical safety."This is much better...Quote... but it still has a high degree of "user influence" on the outcome probability. Far more so than, say, the chances of dying in a plane crash.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:30:22 am
content: Darwin awards, here own fault etc, come on, this is a 14 year old, she does not deserve dead penalty for being not educated about the risks and GFCI etc. We have 230 socket in the bathroom and it is not a shaving outlet. I told my wife and son about the dangers and what not to do.The problem is partly in the system, with all that over regulating and warning for everything, people stop thinking about safety and assume it it safe. It must be because it is not covered with stickers that say not to use it in bath.Electronics is such a big thing today that schools should educate kids about electricity basics and safety. What to do and what not, dangers etc. When I was young (60's) I was learned not to do stupid things like poke a screwdriver in a wall outlet. Instead we now try to make it impossible to do stupid things instead of teaching our kids to think about dangers.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 11:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 20, 2017, 06:46:19 amShe didn't grab a wall plug.She grabbed an extension cord that was already plugged in. When I say extension cord, I mean one of those cheap brown, two prong cords designed for lamps, fans and other low current appliances. There's virtually no insulation to speak of (about as much as a standard US lamp cord) so it's not hard to knick or fray, exposing the copper. (Plus, it's hard to spot bare patches of copper on a brown colored cord, since they blend together so well).That is unfortunately what happened here! The cord was frayed and she touched the exposed copper wire. She obviously was aware of the dangers of water and electricity, because she wrapped the head of the cord and charger in a towel, to keep it off the floor and dry. (There's even a picture of this that she tweeted minutes before she died.)Read the articles that have been posted.Anyway, teenagers are impulsive. They will always be impulsive. This will never change. I think quite a few of us did stupid stuff as teens and by all rights shouldn't be here today.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 01:04:14 am
content: ^^^^^^^^Everything you saidQuote from: timb on July 20, 2017, 11:08:41 pmTell me about it. I still remember as a teenager when I grabbed a lamp socket + plug + cord + a standard carbon track 100k potentiometer to make my own dimmer without "all this Triac rubbish" (DaveTM). Soldered everything as it should and, with all connections exposed and holding the pot on my (bare) hands, I could only hear a ZZZZAAAAAP! when the pot reached perhaps 100~200 ohms. Threw the pot in the trash can and only told my parents years later... I almost turned myself into one more statistical datapoint.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 05:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 21, 2017, 01:37:34 amWhy should her parents be held responsible?They might have never noticed that the wire had a cut in it.In my opinion, there is nothing really to blame.shit happens.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 12:27:06 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 21, 2017, 01:04:14 amHaha, I hear you!When I was about 12 I decided to take apart a broken Polaroid Impulse camera. For whatever reason I decided to take it apart while sitting on my bed. Did I mention I had a bunk bed and slept on the top bunk? So, I managed to get the thing partially disassembled, down to the circuit board with the big ass flash capacitor exposed. Now, I *knew* those caps could be dangerous, but I wanted to see how the film eject mechanism worked. So, I inserted an empty film cartridge (the film packs contained batteries too) and hit the shutter a few times while observing the motors and gears.Anyway, during my poking and prodding I must have touched one of the terminals on that flash capacitor, because I woke up on the floor, with blood running down my face and shattered camera parts all around me. Nearest I can figure, the shock caused me to instinctively push away, which unfortunately meant off the bed and a 6 foot drop. I think my head hit the edge of the dresser on the way down, causing the cut and loss of consciousness.That's just one of the many stupid, dangerous things I did in my youth that nearly killed me. Honestly, it wasn't until my mid 20's that I started to realize I wasn't actually invincible.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 01:49:56 am
content: Quote from: timb on July 22, 2017, 12:27:06 amThat's another thing forgotten by people: physical fatalities caused by electrical accidents are not uncommon.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 04:21:58 am
content: Seems to me it should be common sense to avoid electronic use in water by now. Knowing enough about electricity we here can more or less figure what situations are safe (an isolated 5v adapter, or unplugged phone etc) but you would think the average person would know enough to just avoid it altogether. Sadly not the case.If anything I would not want to use my phone in the tub as I would not want to get it wet. How long is a typical bath, less than an hour, can some people really not handle being without their phone for a short time like that? lol

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 12:34:09 pm
content: Quote from: rfeecs on July 18, 2017, 05:08:12 pmYou have to take that with a big grain of salt...Conditional Risk. By raw numbers you're also more likely to die by getting eaten by a shark than by jumping out of a plane without a parachute. That doesn't mean if you jump out of a plane without a parachute you'll be fine, it means that nobody does it because it's stupid. I'd like to see what those electrocution numbers show when you calculate the percentage of deaths compared not to the entire US population, but to the number of people actively handling mains AC while in the bath.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 01:07:03 pm
content: Good point on conditional risk, but you are asking for a number that is not available to my knowledge, and near impossible to obtain.Conditional risk works both ways. This forum is full of people horrified by handheld meters with improperly marked CAT ratings. Which generate no risk for the vast majority of users who don't use them for high energy circuits.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 05:08:15 pm
content: Try and watch this without cringing

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 09:51:00 pm
content: For those who haven't seen the video, the phone and charger aren't guilty. She used an extension lead with a damaged cable, plugged into a non-GFCI socket, which caused her to be electrocuted.On another note, I'm shocked that the US plugs don't have plastic guards at the top of the pins and that it's possible to get a nasty shock when removing them. I don't know about other countries but the UK plugs have had them since the mid 80s.

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 10:05:49 pm
content: our mains plugs are pretty low on the list of dangers of living in the US...lol

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 07:49:29 am
content: Let's just cut out all the faffing around.Keep the charging gear out of the bathroom. That will make it safe.Then just drop the phone into the bath.... It's going to happen eventually.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 11:15:12 am
content: I don't remember the exact term, but I remember coming across a type of cable which will show a different colour if the outer insulation is damaged.