OT: RSI due to my mouse - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 10:53:11 am
content: I've gotten pain my my forearm and elbow recently, and have (as you do) medically self-diagnosed myself with RSI due to my mouse.I'm now using the mouse left handed until I can get some vertical mice to try out, and will do a few weeks trial to see what happens.Anyone else had RSI due to their mouse, and did the vertical type make a difference?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 10:56:26 am
content: Mouse pad with one of those padded gel palm-rests may help.A new mouse (different brand) may help just because the different shape requires different muscle groups to be used.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 11:07:55 am
content: I occasionally get it after a heavy week of oing multiple PCB layouts - goes away after a day or two

author: Strada916
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 11:08:32 am
content: Yes it was temporary though. mine happened because my arm was not supported and was using the mouse at the very edge of the desk due to bad posture.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 11:15:46 am
content: I got mouse-induced RSI about ten years ago, and switched to a Logitech optical marble mouse, which worked well and fixed the problem. Nowadays I use a cordless air mouse left-handed at home for casual browsing, and a normal right-handed mouse in the office.You need to be careful with gel wrist pads, which can actually make the problem worse. They shouldn't be used when actively typing or mousing.

author: notsob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 11:20:07 am
content: Here ya go dave, cursor control sans hands:http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9540-brainimplant-enables-mind-over-matter.html#.UpSDdCfiS8c

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 11:21:07 am
content: I had a bubble in a tendon form on my right hand but I think it was keyboard related. After I got a laptop it went away and never returned even years later when using regular keyboards again.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 11:30:59 am
content: keyword: massage therapist, get one! i prefer spot massage where they will push trigger point in my body and feel the pain, after that strain will be relieved (if done correctly). if RSI can self-relieved in one week its not so serious. regular body massage can avoid pain as serious as carpal tunnel where hospital will end resolve to amputation (good for their skill enhancement esp noobs doctors). depending on location i guess body massage is quite archaic but... your callas always YMMV.edit: i dont know of anybody around me or here, that spent more time with mouse than i am, all i got so far is darker bruise/mark bottom of my palm where it supports my hand when mousing. yes i dont use fancy hand support or pillow, it just land hard on the desk. yes i occasionally experience this so called RSI? all i did, just as everybody i guessis self-massage. hint: from experienced massagers, i know forearm and hand are connected to upper arm, so you might want to massage from there down. if self-massage wont do it, i'll find a therapist. no no hospital no no amputation. how can they so barbaric like that?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 11:57:37 am
content: If yourelbowis hurting from mouse use then you might be moving your hand much more than necessary. Turn up the resolution so you don't need more than the movement of swinging your wrist left and right and extending/retracting the fingers to cover the whole screen.I have mine setup so that from left to right (across 2 monitors) is approximately 5cm of mouse movement, and up and down 2.5cm.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 12:03:41 pm
content: I've got it all, Dave....carpal tunnel, cubital tunnel, tennis elbow....in both arms. Between the computer, guitar building, and the instruments I play (guitar, piano, bass and percussion), I was pretty much living in a state of constant injury. The tennis elbow is actually flaring up this past week...I can barely lift a gallon of milk with my left arm. Anyhow, some things I did that really helped were:1) Switch mouse hands2) Switch mice...I have 2 different mice in my shop that are COMPLETELY different, and I swap them in and out3) use pads in front of the keyboard and mice...different sizes...sometimes remove them.4) Change the angle of your arm/wrist....raise/lower the arm rests, etc...5) Cut out vibration...wear vibration reducing glove anytime you use yard equipment or do anything else that introduces constant vibration and shock. Bicycling comes to mind. I have some nice, cushy bicycling gloves.So on and so forth. The pattern that's helped me the most is just constantly change what I'm doing and getting rid of any sources of vibration.FYI: the elbow/forearm pain sounds more like tennis elbow or golfers elbow. Does picking up a gallon of milk hurt? Lifting your jacket up from the chair? It's that motion.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 12:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on November 26, 2013, 12:03:41 pmCertain weight movements at the gym hurt, like standard dumbell bicep curls, but hammer curls are fine, it's the rotation of the arm that makes the difference.The gym is where I am really having the problem.

author: Six_Shooter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 12:29:47 pm
content: I had never heard of a "vertical mouse" until reading this topic, I'm going to need to look into this a little more.

author: Dataforensics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 12:40:07 pm
content: Used computers with mice virtually my whole career and did end up being diagnosed with carpal tunnel. Most annoying as this was shortly after taking early retirement. I did not mind the test, not really an electric shock, just a mild tingle.However still in some pain from the surgery that was two months ago.I too noticed pain in my wrist and elbow, however there were also period of numbness in the fingers.Good luck and hope a change of pointer or some rest/massage cures yours Dave.Tony

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 01:20:21 pm
content: I wonder how many people in the thousands of years past got some sort of RSI from chopping wood, cutting grain, fishing, hand washing clothes, and the list goes on and on...I also wonder how many of those folks got free money from the gov't for it too...

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 01:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2013, 12:20:06 pmI'm not a doctor, I don't play one on TV and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...but I would bet dollars to donuts that's not an repetitive strain injury. You should probably see your doctor and figure out what's going on. What you're describing is more like a standard injury...maybe a ligament or something like that. You may need to take a break from the gym to give it some time to heal.

author: fluxcapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 02:10:56 pm
content: Ive got nerve damage atm in my left shoulder,from lifting a 32" crt tv on my own.I`m kak handed (left) but luckily ive always used a mouse with my right hand.For typing ive been using windows 7`s onscreen keyboard a lot,its one of those programs often overlooked but does a great job.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 02:43:35 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 26, 2013, 01:39:59 pmAll true, and ya, a couple weeks ago I got out of a wheelchair/cast from a gravity induced rapid deceleration aluminum contact injury (GIRDACI?, fell off a ladder, then fell on the same ladder, then fell off the ladder, broke right wrist, broke rt pelvis in 5 places, bruised every available right side rib, good times! GREAT meds! but hand and pelvis are likely permanently hosed, at least I'm a lefty), ~6 years ago another gravity induced rapid deceleration concrete contact clavicle injury (GIRDCCCI?) due to a loss of available locomotive traction while traversing an area of freshly precipitated solidified dihydrogen monoxide (e.g. slipped on the ice, shoulder no move so good no more at least not without a yearly-ish injection which helps bunches), not to mention the atypical rotten discs in the low back common to most every male on the planet. Point being, I retired from the USAF a couple years ago. Damn near everybody I talk to in the same-ish situation says something to the effect of "well, why didn't you claim X injury and get your free money?". Well, 'cause that's not the way I roll. So, when I see these wussy office weenies walking around with that phonyass wrist brace on because they're typing and mousing makes there little arm hurt, well, they're likely immediately discounted as drags on the bulk of society.Are there folks out there with obvious problems? Sure. Are there folks out there with obvious problems that are actually trying to make do and get on with it? Sure.But these shit-sticks running around claiming their pussies hurt, well, grow a pair...Diagnosing an issue is one thing. Taking advantage of it at the expense of everybody is another thing entirely.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 02:48:08 pm
content: I had what I thought was RSI, it just got worse and worse, then I developed it in the other (left) hand (all due to using heavy vibrating machinery ie 9 inch angle grinders and such) and it got so that the pain would wake me up at night and the only relief was to sit in a chair to sleep rather than lie down. At this point I decided to see the doctor, it turned out that I had a bad case of bilateral carpel tunnel syndrome, I ended up having both hands operated on. It's a really bizarre feeling having that done under a local anesthetic, after they pump you full of happy juice you can feel them sawing or scrapping away at the tissue but no pain and due to whatever they give you, you don't give a damm.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 03:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2013, 10:53:11 amYes; I used to get dull pains in my right forearm from using a mouse on the edge of a desk, I now use a large hard-backed book in my lap with my mouse, and now my arm is better supported which seems to help a lot.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 03:08:51 pm
content: I had the same problem a few years ago. I switch to using a trackball. Makes a BIG difference. The wrist doesn't move, only the fingers do the walking. Now, I'd never go back to using a mouse again.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 03:20:14 pm
content: Try a Logitech M570 Trackball. If it is mouse related, the pain should vanish after some days.

author: Six_Shooter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 03:50:57 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on November 26, 2013, 03:20:14 pmI'd have bought that years ago, if there was a wired version.I know Logitech has a wired trackball mouse, but the design is very different and doesn't have a scroll wheel. I use the scroll wheel often, so it's a necessity.Seems silly to buy a wireless track back just to convert it to wired, even if the wired part is only for power.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 04:20:32 pm
content: The wireless M570 has a scroll wheel. And so far, I've used the battery daily/extensively for about 10 months now and works great. I don't even bother to turn it off anymore.Having said that, the damn battery will probably die tomorrow.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 04:39:48 pm
content: I use two of them, at work and home, since roundabout 2 years. I don't remember that I ever changed the batteries. I also don't turn them off.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 06:10:01 pm
content: Try wearing a pair of jeans for a week ( just need the fabric to below the knee) and use the mouse on it instead while sitting down. Keeps the arm in a natural position and relaxed, so there is less stress on the wrist. Worked for me, as I have nerve damage from MVA where my hand went through the dash from the gear shift. Still have a loss of sensation on the side of some fingers from that, nothing much that can be done about that, just makes for an easy place to draw blood if needed. A good therapy is to get a foam ball ( or 2 new kitchen sponges) and do regular squeezing of them to improve the muscular strength of the whole hand.

author: Waifian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 06:32:42 pm
content: Dave,I have the same issue. I posted about it when it started on here. It has been on going since then(2 years).Pain in the forearm and elbow. You may also occasionally get a form of pain in the last two fingers.It seems to have to do with the Ulnar nerve that runs past the funny bone area of the elbow. Pain pattern is consistant with golfers elbow(attached).What helps is to try keeping the arms straight and relaxed. Another thing to try are nerve glides and trigger point therapy as mentioned above.This book was somewhat useful:http://www.amazon.com/Its-Carpal-Tunnel-Syndrome-Professionals/dp/0965510999I also have to take very frequent breaks from pc use or I can get terrible flare ups that can last for well over a month or so.If you find any good solutions I would love to know. Especially if they fix it completely not just keep it somewhat at bay.It's a depressing situation to be in having to limit or eliminate things from your life that you love doing but can't any more. I hope it gets better.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 06:38:48 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 26, 2013, 11:57:37 amThis. I use Microsoft Intellimouse which are one of the bigger mice out there (I have big hands).http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Comfort-Mouse-6000-S7J-00010/dp/B00A1702Z0/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385490900&sr=8-1&keywords=comfort+mouse+6000I have tried to use Logitech mice. FAIL.The damn logitechs are so tiny your fingers get bunched up just trying to grab 'em. Even worse, some moron designer decided they should have the optical sensor offset, not in the center of the mouse! It's completely impossible to draw a freaking circle (It comes out as an ellipse).Because of using one Logitech for 15 minutes, I had severe RSI for several days afterwards.Not everybody is the same, but I haven't really ever had RSI from my intellmouse.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 06:52:05 pm
content: A few colleagues at my office had trouble like that, and they all blamed it on the mouse. We gave them this:and although I personally hate to use it (luckely there is still a normal mouse attached to their system), it worked very well for them and the problem disappeared.

author: arekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 07:02:28 pm
content: I'm also a big fan of wireless Logitech Trackball M570 (previously I was using wired Logitech TrackMan).- battery last very long (like 6-10 months using 10h/day) and m570 uses single AA (rechargable here), so wireless is much better option than wired (that why logitech stopped selling wired TrackMan). Don't even consider looking for used wired version.- tiny usb wireless receiver; I have it plugged in into laptop all the time. No point in disconnecting it- took about 1-2 weeks to get used to it but after that I'm not using mouse anymore- doesn't require much space on the desk; comfortable in use on other surfaces like sofa or own chest (when lying on the bed with laptop)- my wirst is happy for all that trackball usage time (there were sporadic problems when using mouse)- ball gets dirty sometimes which annoys but well, you can take it out and clean supporting rolls with a finger- logitech also sells trackball for forefinger usage but M570 (so thumb operated) is IMO much nicer- easily repairable (typical omron switches)

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 07:30:03 pm
content: Quote from: arekm on November 26, 2013, 07:02:28 pmyes and no. You can use it without much precision after one or two hours. After one or two days you use it intuitive without thinking. After one week everythink works.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 07:48:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2013, 10:53:11 amget a mouse from contour designs. we have several employees that have RSI due to mouse. one even had carpal tunnel and needed operation.Company paid for a contour design mouse. problems all resolved.These mice are available in different sizes and left or right handed !http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Contour-Mouse-Medium-mouse/2562435.aspx?cm_mmc=ShoppingFeeds-_-GoogleBase-_-Keyboard/Mice/Input%20Devices/Mice%20and%20Trackballs-_-2562435_Contour%20Mouse%20Medium%20-%20mouse_COT-CMO-GM-M-L&gclid=CLzzns6bg7sCFaHm7AodKioABgi personally swear by Logitech M500 mouse :http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/corded-mouse-m500fits my hand perfectly.

author: Six_Shooter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 08:00:06 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on November 26, 2013, 06:52:05 pmI've wondered how something ike that would work as a mouse... Might need to try that.Ok, this has always bugged me:How is a wireless mouse (or keyboard) "better" than the wired counter part?In my opinion, based on experience with wireless devices that could easily be wired, I have pretty much always preferred a wired version, since there are no batteries to discharge or re-charge, less wight in the device typically, due to lack of batter and related voltage regulation hardware, and have more stable communications with the target device.In the case of my PC stuff, my tower sits just to my left currently (might change it to the right...), and my wired mouse is plugged into it directly, along with my keyboard. I haven't had to replace or recharge any batteries in the 4 or so years I've had my mouse and in the year that I've had this current keyboard, I never have to wait for comms to "wake up" or re-initialize, they are always connected and work instantly.There are just somethings that really, really do not need to be wireless.That being said I do see that there is a need for wireless PC input devices for specific applications, but sitting more than a few feet from your computer is rare. Most computer work (programs) is designed as a 3 to 5 foot interface, and rarely is the PC itself remotely placed from the screen(s) and input devices.I was trying to find a wired mini mouse to put in my back pack to use with my laptop while at school, and it took me a couple of months to find something I was happy with, and even then it turned out to be a used Microsoft mouse I found at a pawn shop. I didn't want wireless because I didn't want to take the risk of losing the receiver, and didn't want to deal with a dead or dying battery when I wanted to use it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 08:13:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2013, 10:53:11 amSure it is not a tennis arm?Anyway, I always put my arm flat on the table. My mouse pointer is set really fast so I only use my fingers to move the mouse pointer. My arm and wrist are almost still. Never had problems.Another option is a tablet from Wacom. One of my former bosses thinks anyone not using such a tablet is a complete idiot.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 08:37:51 pm
content: Wow, long thread already.I think I would echo the other comments that if you have some kind of painful injury then the likely cause is the more strenuous things you do rather than the lighter things. Thus, you may have developed and aggravated the injury at the gym, and later you feel it when using the mouse (because of the quiet environment and lack of adrenalin the pain will be more noticeable).As far as mouse and keyboard use are concerned, I think different mouse and keyboard designs can only go so far. I think it is more important to avoid staying in one position for too long. For instance I never leave my hands resting on the mouse or keyboard when I am not actually typing or mousing. Every time I pause (like at that last full stop) I move and stretch my arms and wiggle my fingers.Similarly, I don't use a fully supportive office chair. I use a chair more as if it were a stool: I perch on it and use my back muscles for balance. I spend a lot of time twisting, turning, stretching and "fidgeting".

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 01:58:54 am
content: Sometimes.. lately I hve had nasty pain at the underside of my left arm when using mice and witing on keyboard.. between elbow and wrist. Lowered the grip strength, so it's not nice at all.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 02:10:32 am
content: As mentioned in another thread, my favorite mouse at the moment is the Microsoft Wireless Mouse 5000. It requires a feather touch to move it so that it only needs finger tip pressure. I use the mouse on a cushioned mouse mat so that my wrist is not resting on a hard surface. And most importantly for me, my hands are never resting on the keyboard or mouse unless I am actually typing or mousing. As soon as I pause, even for a moment, I move my hands into my lap, or I fold my arms, or I stretch them.Possibly, it helps to be a fast typist. I spend far more time thinking about what I am going to write next than I do actually writing it. So my hands spend only a small proportion of time on the keyboard.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 03:29:07 am
content: I use an articulating under desk keyboard mount. the mouse tray also tilts up or down allowing you to get everything in the most comfortable position. It might be worth a look-see.Tom, NW0LF

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 04:26:29 am
content: Personally, I use one of these:http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/performance-mouse-mx?crid=7and occasionally switch it out for one of these:http://www.bestbuy.com/site/steelseries-sensei-laser-gaming-mouse-gray-black/3940521.p?id=1218443134203&skuId=3940521I also upgraded my keyboard to one of these for pretty effortless typing:http://shop.daskeyboard.com/collections/products/products/das-keyboard-professional-model-swith the MX-Brown switches.It's all helped to some extent.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 05:05:09 am
content: Just got myself a Logitech M570 trackball. Feels pretty good and works well. Will compare with the vertical mouse...

author: Six_Shooter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 05:46:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2013, 05:05:09 amSubject of a VBlog?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 05:53:56 am
content: Quote from: hammy on November 26, 2013, 07:30:03 pmI was productive with it almost immediately, but then again I did use a thumb trackball almost exclusively about a decade ago.Still has a bit of overshoot after a few hours of use, but very usable.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 06:09:53 am
content: It still needs a bit of work but I thimk Ben Krasnow might havejust the thing for you..You just need to hold it at the proper angle...

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 07:08:56 am
content: I've had a nice bit of RSI in the past both on the keyboard and on the mouse. Mostly mouse though. Using a gel pad pretty much solved it for the keyboard. A gel pad for the mouse turn out to be too annoying, so after some experimentation I eventually settled on a microfiber cloth folded a few times (to 6 layers in this case). That seems to work for me. It's springy enough that my wrist nerves are happy. It's insulating enough that the desk (which can be pretty cold( isn't uncomfortable. And it's thin enough that mouse movement is easy.And regarding mouse movement ... like someone else pointed out already: turn up the resolution so you don't have to make large movements to get your mouse pointer across.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 07:10:49 am
content: Oh yeah, and keyboard shortcuts for everything!!! Why move your hand allllll the way to the mouse when you can activate feature XYZ with just a keystroke. Personally I use fvwm2 on linux because you can configure the hell out of it, but no doubt the functional equivalent will exist on windoze.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 12:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2013, 05:53:56 amGood! The benefit of the trackball is: you can relax the whole arm. Use it exclusive for some days and then you will know if it helps or not.With a mouse, even if you reduce the movement with a higher resolution, you have muscle contraction in your arm up to your shoulder. And, I don't know, maybe you make it more worse, when you contract your arm more or less at the same point without much movement.I don't know, I'm not a doctor. It is just a "five engineer and eight opinions"-thing.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 01:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on November 27, 2013, 12:47:29 pmThat's a pretty low opinions per engineer average. That must have been a really really polite engineer sample set.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 04:31:40 pm
content: What about some form of eye tracking device, something along the lines that Steven Hawking uses. That with verbal command would be really cool. I would love to be able to just say "computer log into EEVblog" or whatever and it just did.

author: Galaxyrise
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 05:20:34 pm
content: I actually switch mouse hands somewhat routinely now, that's a pretty good strategy by itself.But what really did it for me was removing the arms from my chair. Turns out that leaning on my elbow was the prime culprit. The giveaway symptom was numbness in my pinky finger.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 05:29:39 pm
content: Quote from: Galaxyrise on November 27, 2013, 05:20:34 pmDOH!How could I forget about that one. Yes yes YES remove the arms from your chair. I totally forgot about it since I have removes all arms years ago now. Oddly enough the telltale for me was a strange tingle in the elbow itself, not wrist or hand or anything .. that always came later. But removing the arms helped healing. As in, even with no typing/mousing the problem would remain (after I got RSI). And then I kicked out the armrests as well, and that seems to have helped.Sooo, remove armrests + gel pad + folded microfiber cloth for your mouse hand + keyboard shortcuts to minimize mousing ... yeah, that should do the trick. Or when your mouse hand is really fucked right now, switch to a Wacom bamboo pad or something. That also helped.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 06:10:05 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on November 27, 2013, 12:47:29 pmThis part I don't understand. When I operate a mouse I have almost exactly the same muscle movements as when I operate a trackball. My arm is perfectly relaxed, my wrist is resting on the mouse mat and my fingers move the mouse. The only difference I can tell is that the trackball rotates under my fingers whereas the mouse slides under my fingers. My arm is equally relaxed either way.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 08:35:31 pm
content: The Logitech M570 wouldn't work for me. I have arthritis in both thumbs and that much moving my thumb hurts. I have my resolution as high as it can go and have the keyboard/mouse tray adjusted to just the right position that I can mouse all day without any problems. I do rest my arm on the arm of my chair but the mouse tray is in line with the chair arm so the pressure is even across the arm. I also find that the laser mice are easier to use than the ball mice, at least for me.Tom, NW0LF

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 09:22:28 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 27, 2013, 06:10:05 pmok. Interesting. When I use a mouse I never have a relaxed arm. When I move the mouse I always move my arm also a little bit. This means I use muscles in my arm. I also have some muscle contraction in my shoulder.Anyway, it seams we all have some different habits to use a mouse.

author: elliot42
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 10:18:57 pm
content: I had (self diagnosed) RSI in my wrist a few years ago from work. I tended to move my hand side to side a lot without moving my arm while using the mouse. I got a Logitech Trackman Marble and haven't had a problem since. I use my index and middle finger to move the trackball and my wrist and arms stay straight and relaxed. I also got myself a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 that's similarly great, it keeps my wrists raised and in a more natural position - straight and relaxed.My dad has tendonitis in his wrist and we got him one of those 3M vertical joystick-like mice a few years ago for use at work; I think he's been pretty happy with it.And, like others have said, I use my keyboard at work for as much as possible. I use either Vim or Netbeans with a Vim keybindings plugin for most of my editing (I'm a software programmer) and avoid the mouse where I can.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 10:52:12 pm
content: CTS diagnosed in both hands after nerve conduction testing. Issues with both keyboards & mice. Needed surgery then, but due to my age at the time, and the chances of paralysis at my current age (surgery needing to be repeated ~5 years or so), the surgeon recommended skipping it and gave me a list of what to get/use to improve matters as well as different habits. Scared the crap out of me of course, as I'd already experienced paralysis at this point (wasn't fun; R wrist down & entire L arm), so I heeded the surgeon's warning.Switched to ergonomic keyboard, chair (very adjustable arm rests that extend & swivel to support my forearms to the table), adjustable height table, and switched to a trackball. Still have issues from time to time, but frequent breaks do help a lot to keep flare ups to a minimum of occurrences. Have managed to avoid surgery for 22 years so far this way.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 11:00:17 pm
content: One thing I notice about my use of a mouse is extensive use of the scroll wheel. The finger tip movement is similar to using a trackball and avoids the need to make extensive arm movements to scroll a page up and down with the scroll bar.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 11:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: elliot42 on November 27, 2013, 10:18:57 pmI tried one of those a couple of years ago, but just couldn't get used to it.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 11:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on November 27, 2013, 10:52:12 pm+1 for the split keyboardsI've seen several studies now that indicate that reclining is the best posture for sitting for long periods of time. I use a elevated Lazy-Boy with the ergonomic keyboard in my lap. Might be a little hard to do when at the bench.QuoteI.e.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 11:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on November 27, 2013, 11:41:49 pmHow does it work? Do you have to physically pick it up and move it? Or just flex the handle?http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ergonomics/home/products/ergonomicmouse/

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 12:23:27 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyGringo on November 27, 2013, 11:50:16 pmIt didn't operate like a joystick. Pretty much a mouse with a different grip position.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 12:26:56 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on November 28, 2013, 12:23:27 amSeems like it will still require flexing your wrist (laterally).

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 12:27:05 am
content: I know someone who has a real problem with mice, he has tried pretty much everything on the market. He seems to have stuck with the evoluent vertical mouse for well over a year now, so I guess he likes it.Edit. He also bought & tested the 3M vertical ergonomic mouse - I reckoned he looked like something from a fat-boy slim video using it:

author: tealsuki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 02:44:25 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyGringo on November 27, 2013, 11:42:03 pmI moved my computer to my little coffee table last year because my office chair broke and I decided to use first a lounge chair and then ultimately my couch instead. Best decision I've ever made, I don't get strain in my arms anymore, and with wireless keyboard and mouse, any position where my arm is natural (including a full on sprawl-out) I can use my mouse comfortably. Keyboard is certainly a bit awkward though.Unfortunately, the office bound folk can't exactly haul a lounging chair to work, but at least I hope we can all practice good computer usage at home.PS, is there anyone here still using a ball mouse?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 02:52:04 am
content: Just laid out my new uCurrent PCB with the trackball. Not as efficient as the mouse yet, but pretty close.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:28:50 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyGringo on November 27, 2013, 11:42:03 pmPossibly, possibly.I think perhaps it is better to keep your core trunk muscles well toned, which means balancing rather than reclining. For instance, sitting on a yoga ball with your legs beneath you for balance rather than stretched out in front.The trouble with a "supportive" chair is that your muscles switch off and your body goes into a relaxed mode. It's OK to do that at night while you are sleeping, but if you do it during the day as well you will lose the ability to support your weight and it will put more strain on your joints and ligaments.I think Dave works standing up, which is sensible. It keeps his back straight and his muscles active.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:43:18 am
content: I use a wrist rest pad and adjust the chair to leave just enough legroom (or as high as it goes). If the chair is a fancy one that tilts, I adjust it so that the front of the seat is lower than the back.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 05:07:59 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 27, 2013, 08:35:31 pmDitto, I have a Logitech G9x Laser here. Set to the second to highest speed (very small wrist movements required) works well for desktop work.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 08:50:38 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 27, 2013, 08:35:31 pmYou can actually buy a mouse with ball these days? I haven't seen one in years.Using a mouse that's a good fit for you hand size can help too.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 12:19:31 pm
content: After looking up "vertical mouse" (I had imagined this was a mouse that you used in the vertical plane, against a wall) I can't say I'd want to use one -- I guess it's very dependent on what you're comfortable with, which people vary on. For me, the natural position when I'm resting my hand on the desk is with the palm down; a vertical mouse seems more comfortable to someone who rests his hands with their palms facing sideways.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 12:25:46 pm
content: I think Dave just needs to.........

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 12:58:04 pm
content: I was affected with serious Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, and 10 years ago I was treated surgically at the right wrist.Now sometimes I feel some pain in my right arm, but it is sufficient to held the arm in an upright position to stop the pain in less than one minute.This reduces blood pressure in the carpal tunnel, and the movement was useful even before surgery.At those times I tested every mouse, trackball and tablet+pen combination I could find, and opted for a Logitech mouse that is out of catalog by almost 10 years: a big, triangular one, made in two versions (one for right and one for left-handed users).I'm ambidextrous (or better, I was left--handed when I was a child, was writing with the left-hand but had to learn writing again with my right hand at the elementary school: in 1956 that was the rule, here), but I feel very uncomfortable using a mouse with my left hand.I think Dave should see a doctor: self diagnoses need a professional confirmation better with some instrumental tests.Best regards

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 01:36:24 pm
content: How did we get from "I've gotten pain my my forearm and elbow recently" to carpal tunnel syndrome?Maybe it's a tumor!

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 01:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 28, 2013, 01:24:24 pmWell, actually it's the swelling in the "tunnel" that encloses the nerve which causes the pain. It can lead to nerve damage if you don't abate the source of the swelling.http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/carpal-tunnel-syndrome/DS00326/DSECTION=causesQuote

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 02:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: GK on November 28, 2013, 01:36:24 pmIz nat ah tuumooor!

author: keithu
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 02:44:38 pm
content: I highly recommend trying a graphics tablet with a pen stylus. Something like the smaller wacom models with an active area about the size of a postcard is fine and personally I wouldn't go any larger unless you would actually use it for digitizing drawings or with a custom menu system.The hand position is exactly the same as using a normal pen and is less strenuous than using a mouse as the wrist isn't rotated out of its natural position. It's also more precise for CAD-type applications and image editing. I used to do tech support for a CAD office using lots of different pointing devices and for PCB layout I would definitely want to use a graphics tablet and pen.