5 V CPLDs. What's recommended today? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 09:23:47 pm
content: I have a standard logic design (74HC) that I'd like to "compress".It's no big deal, a 16-bit counter and an 8-bit counter, an additional handful of FFs plus an amount of combinatorial logic. Low pin count.But looking at the major suppliers (Altera, Lattice, Xilinx), the offering is 3.3 V and below, and the 5 V offerings seem to be on the way to obsolescence.Am I seeing this right or am I missing something?5 V is amustin my case, together with a simple tool chain.Suggestions, anybody?Thanks in advance.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 09:39:50 pm
content: https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/ATF2500CNow whether it has enough logic resources for your need is to be checked. But it's even available at the moment...

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 09:42:39 pm
content: Lattice iCE40HXProviding its non-commercial.The data sheet says its 3.3v but it's actually 5v tolerant and will interface to 5v TTL levels.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/ice40-hx-a-5v-tolerant-fpga/msg3580451/#msg3580451

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 09:48:26 pm
content: There is no functional development environment for old Atmel CPLDs. They are not a good choice foe new products. You will probably have to install Win98 in a VM to work with them.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 10:07:45 pm
content: Thank You.First, I'm not talking about "5 V tolerant". I'm talking about 5 V. Period. That means 5 V supply.I'm also leery of Atmel devices under Microchip control.MAX7000 from Altera looked technically promising, but seems to have been put on the back burner at Intel.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 10:10:33 pm
content: An often cheaper and simpler alternative is to use a micro and write code for it in a tight loop to simulate a CPLD's actions. It's weird, it's inefficient and it's unsettling; but economically it works out.(Albeit micro prices are crazy at the moment, so this advice might not still hold)

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 10:14:00 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on December 28, 2021, 10:10:33 pmIrrelevant and not what I asked.The current solution is hardwired and propagation times on certain signals need to be below 40 ns.No MCU could do that. I'm fully aware of what an mcu can andcan notdo.Please stay on topic.Thank you.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 10:33:15 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 28, 2021, 09:48:26 pmhttps://www.microchip.com/en-us/products/fpgas-and-plds/spld-cplds/pld-design-resourcesA note says:QuoteHaven't tried myself, but worth a try. Anyway, if anyone can find a better and available option, no problem!

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 11:01:25 pm
content: It is possible that they updated it. I have tried it at the time when Win7 was the most recent version of windows, and the software was from 1997 and would not even install on Win7. We have a bunch of olf CPLDs in the storage room, so I thought to play with them to see what it is all about, but got stopped pretty fast by the software.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 11:10:04 pm
content: The project is dead.Seeing the current consumption of CPLDs has put me in a state of shock!The relevant Atmel/Microchip parts (ATF750/1500 and older Altera equivalents) sucking 130 mA just in stand-by is just...well... I don't know.I'll stay with my 74HC-design (which pulls perhaps 5 mA in full action), and do a bit of layout optimization instead.But Thanks to All for you feedback.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 11:18:29 pm
content: There is the XC9500XL series from Xilinx (https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/xc9500xl/14975) - but that is only 5V tolerant, not 5V powered (it is a 3.3V part). The old XC9500 (non-XL) was 5V but that one is long obsolete and discontinued.The current consumption depends on the clock frequency and what exactly you have enabled inside - and yes, it is going to be higher than a single 74HC chip. Which is to be expected, given the complexity of those ICs.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 11:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on December 28, 2021, 11:18:29 pmWhat am I reading wrong in this data sheet p.6?https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/doc0776.pdfOr in this p.6?https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/doc0759.pdfI'm not talking about "a single 74HC chip", but about 18. And they consume around 10...15 mA running in the application. Not 80 or 130 mA in standby.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 12:06:41 am
content: Back when 5V logic was the norm, power consumption of CPLDs was rarely more than afterthought and battery operation was not really considered.e.g. in the ATF1500, there is a "manual" standby or powerdown pin, which takes 1uS to power up again, and a mode on the -AL version that, as far as I can tell, engages the same powerdown mechanism (presumably with the same delay) based on lack of input transitions.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 01:18:32 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 28, 2021, 11:01:25 pmOh yeah. It's much more recent than 1997 for sure.And yeah, power consumption is unimpressive. Unfortunately, not much choice there...Since you said it would be "low pin count" (define low), would using a much more recent CPLD/small FPGA and level shifters completely out of the question? Might still save a few ICs?

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 01:38:15 am
content: I've seen that nobody mentioned GreenPak:https://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/products/greenpakMaybe you could find something suitable in their product line, we use them in our company and are definitely low power.Cheers,DC1MC

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 03:45:58 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 29, 2021, 01:18:32 amyeh, and if the CPLD is 5V tolerant only the outputs need level shifters

author: Foxxz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 03:49:50 am
content: Would it be possible to implement at least part of your design into a ROM chip? I have seen them used as basically a look-up table - taking inputs on their address lines and throwing various outputs on their data lines.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 10:05:10 am
content: Quote from: Benta on December 28, 2021, 10:14:00 pm(yes it's like the big flame on Youtube about a Gameboy hack, when someone asked to use a CPLD to create their own cartridge logic, and people said "why don't you use an ESP32 for that?!?" ... well because even with interrupt an MPU cannot handle synchronous bus signals and even if it did, it would be 100% busy on thatIt's annoying, ... they somehow insisted with ESP, and as result the Gameboy needs to "try" to read/write something several and several times before getting the IO operation correctly done.Total project failure, but still people "why don't you use a *faster* MPU for that?" ... sure ... let's put a RPI@1Ghz or something like that to manage 1Mhz bus signalsfunny people)I am using QuickLogic's (1992, CPLD, true 5V) and Altera' Max10K (2001, FPGA, true 5V) stuff.If you can access the old Xilinx 95xx logic, it's the best solution here (regarding the software side).

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 10:20:16 am
content: To be fair, RP2040 made possible a lot of those bus interactions that were previously not viable on an MCU. Not all, of course, but more than we had before.

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 03:03:37 pm
content: Do you need 5V TTL outputs from the CPLD? If not, a 3.3v regulator off your 5V supply opens the doors to current 3.3v CPLDs.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 03:37:43 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 28, 2021, 09:23:47 pmMay we ask what this is for?

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 05:07:02 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 29, 2021, 03:37:43 pmEnd application is video processing, but that's not really relevant (no, there are no ready-made ICs available).It's an existing design that would be nice to make smaller.@foxxz: I considered the ROM idea and discarded it. No 5 V ROMs are available, and they would be too slow (fastest part 70 ns), so it would not solve my issue.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 06:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 29, 2021, 05:07:02 pmyou can also consider an "segregated" design where you use a modern 3.3V CPLD coupled with some voltage level shifter chips around the CPLD.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 06:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 29, 2021, 10:20:16 amTrue! That can be an option for a range of applications. But it's not 5V either.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 06:24:02 pm
content: Why the objection to using 3.3v parts and level-shifters?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 07:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 29, 2021, 06:24:02 pmYeah, he didn't say. Unless the number of IOs to level shift is very high, it will still take a much smaller number of ICs. I get it he wanted a single-chip solution as a replacement, but one cannot always have exactly what we want.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 08:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 29, 2021, 06:24:02 pmBecause it wouldn't save any space. Level shifters plus additional voltage regulatorion would save nothing and add additional propagation delays. Plus making it more expensive. Lose-lose-lose situation.You can't beat 74HC on price.Like I said, I've put this project in the grave and will keep the circuit as it is.Thank You for all your suggestions. It was an eye-opener that 5 V is dead, except for 74xx.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 08:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 29, 2021, 08:13:02 pmI'm surprised that you've just realized that, as it's been as good as dead for quite a while now. Now 3.3V standard is slowly going the same way 5V went.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 08:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 29, 2021, 08:13:02 pmReally. Again we don't know how many IOs you'd need to level shift. But saving space compared to 18 (isn't that what you said?) 74HC ICs doesn't look like very far-fetched. But yeah, it's all in the number of exposed IOs, which we don't know.Quote from: Benta on December 29, 2021, 08:13:02 pmYou'd just need an additional 3.3V regulator. And a pretty small one. As for the level shifters, yeah, we don't know how many IOs, so...Quote from: Benta on December 29, 2021, 08:13:02 pmUh yeah. a 74HC compared to a modern small FPGA and some level shifters? Let me have some doubts, at least doubt that it would be higher enough to matter. But if you have a few cascaded 74HC, I can't see how it could be true.Quote from: Benta on December 29, 2021, 08:13:02 pmWe again apparently are missing a key information, the number of exposed IOs. But the cost of 18 74HC ICs? I dunno where you buy them. On common distributors, say the are $0.5 on average for small quantities. That would amount to about $9 + all required bypass capacitors. Let's round that to $10.One example of small FPGA here could be something like the smallest iCE40 LP, which can be had for something like $2 (or less if you keep looking).But just saying. We'll stop trying to convince you because you are sure it's not going to cut it. (And if you need to level shift several tens of IOs, it sure would not. OTOH, if it's 32 or less, you could use 16-bit level shifters such as the 74ALVC164245 or similar, organized in 2x8 bits which can be used each on a different voltage domain. About $1 to $2.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 09:02:33 pm
content: You don't necessarily need level shifters. Many 3.3V devices can run up to 3.6V which will satisfy the logic levels needed for 5V CMOS. You can add pull-up resistors as well for an extra bit of margin. However, if you are lucky the circuit uses HCT logic which uses standard TTL logic levels and you won't need level shifters at all.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2021, 09:48:45 pm
content: OK.I now have a major pile of opinions about using level shifters, LDOs, FPGAs, and and and. Everyone riding a hobby horse.That was not my question.I've been down that road myself before I asked about 5 V CPLDs.That was my question! Nothing else. And it's been answered:there areno5 V CPLD solutions any more.Good! Then I know and will plan future projects accordingly.I Thank You all for responding, but it got a bit out of hand at the end.I wish you all a Happy New Year.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 06:03:19 am
content: TheATF16V8BQL-15PUdoes not meet your requirements? The static power consumption is specified as 5 milliamps typical.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 11:01:51 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 30, 2021, 06:03:19 amIt's too small. I need more than 8 FFs.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 11:31:26 am
content: Well, 10 is a number which is more than 8 I suppose.ATF22V10

author: up8051
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 11:38:15 am
content: How many macrocells do you need 32,64,128?Arrow has many ispLSI20xx chips on stock (discontinued but avaliable).But licence for ISPLeverClassis cost 590$.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 12:42:13 pm
content: BTW if you're trying to reduce board area on your HCMOS design, NXP do HCMOS in tiny QFN packages.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 04:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: up8051 on December 30, 2021, 11:38:15 amStated in my original post.

author: up8051
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 06:38:23 pm
content: ISPLSI 2032A-80LTN48 32-macrocells, TQFP48, fMax 84Mhz, 21000pcs in stock, price 3.23$ (100+)

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 07:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: up8051 on December 30, 2021, 06:38:23 pmFunctionally a candidate, but far too power hungry. I think mikeselectricstuff's suggestion for smaller packages is the way to go.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 08:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 30, 2021, 07:20:19 pmAnd of course don't forget the 1-gate HC devices for any odd gates

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2021, 09:34:43 pm
content: Depending on how the 16-bit and 8-bit registers are used, you could use an AVR or similar micro's timer/counter peripheral to do the logic. The AVR firmware would just configure the timer/counter and go to sleep.Another option: if you can find any, use the logic blocks in a PSOC5 (those have 5V I/O).

author: EverydayMuffin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2022, 11:02:22 am
content: Microchip/Microsemi have the ProASIC PLUS and they have an App Note on Interfacing ProASIC PLUS with 5V Input Signals.WouldAPA075-TQG100meet your requirements?https://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_download/129848-ac199-interfacing-proasic-sup-u-plus-u-sup-fpgas-with-5v-input-signals-app-note

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 02:34:59 am
content: I had the same problem just few months ago. These are my notesAltera MAX 7000 / Xilinx XC9500 - old 5V devices. Obsolete but still can get from China (aliexpress, taobao, ebay)Altera MAX3000A - 3.3v but 5V tolerant inputs. Obsolete but still can get from ChinaAltera MAX V - 3.3v, 5V tolerant inputs but need external resistors - still in productionATF2500 - 5V devices still in productionATF22v10 / ATF16v8 - 5V devices, still in production, lot of packages available (dip plcc soic tssop)I managed to fit my design into 3x ATF22v10

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 08:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: c64 on January 03, 2022, 02:34:59 amThanks for your findings. But at 70...130 mAstandbycurrent per CPLD it's waaay beyong my power budget.74HCxx in smaller packages is the way to go. Sorry.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 11:07:39 pm
content: Here you go, plenty of 5v MAX7000s available:https://www.findchips.com/search/EPM7032https://www.findchips.com/search/EPM7064Careful, the there are 2.5v, 3.3v and 5v versions.The 5v versions are usually the most expensive.IE 7032: 3.3v = 95cents for 1 at Avnet, 3.5ns core.3.3/5.0v = 2.21$ for 1, 20ns core.5v prices get worse for the 7064 and completely ugly for the 7128.In fact, I can find cheaper 50kgate/2megabit FPGAs than the 7064s which can probably replace your entire system.

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 06:49:39 am
content: Quote from: Benta on January 03, 2022, 08:59:29 pmI used ATF22V10CQZ, 100uA standby current.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 08:48:34 am
content: Yep same here,Had to redesign some of our boards, we used Xilinx XC9536 and XC9572 (plcc84), now they are dead, and had to switch to ATF1504 series to do the job, did lost an printer port but heh, it work fine up to this day 5v logicThe cpld is / was used as an i/o chip as a Keyboard and lcd port decoder.At first the ATF1504 it was put on an plcc84 pcb adapter to physically mimick the XC9572 plcc84 size, and when it was proved right, we changed / re-did the board design and killed the board with the smaller XC9536Found some XC9536 on the gray market, and oh yes they where clones, they mostly failed in the pcb oven, some survived if they where put later on the boards ... on a qty of 100x 35% of them diedEven had to recover some Xc9572 and xc9536 on some boards to help us getting out of some bad situations ...

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 05:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: c64 on January 04, 2022, 06:49:39 amAs soon as the device is clocked, it rises to 70...130 mA. A sleeping device is of no use to me.

author: up8051
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 10:42:51 pm
content: PEEL18CV8ZP obsolete but avaliableVCC=5VIcc Standby 10uAIcc 2mA at 1MHz, 20mA at 10MHz

author: Beta_vulgaris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2022, 01:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 28, 2021, 09:48:26 pmMicrochip WinCUPL and POF2JED software works well on Windows 10.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 08:08:27 am
content: ATF150x parts (specifically those ending in AS) are 5V and are generally as available as anything can be at this moment in time from the usual places. They are still currently manufactured and come in speed ratings down to sub 10ns. Maximum macro cell count is 128, though.The native toolchain is a bit ancient (WinCUPL) and has some frustrating quirks, but you also have the option to use an older version of Quartus (yeah, Altera) and an Atmel provided tool called pof2jed. This allows you to write Verilog or VHDL for an equivalent Altera part and then convert it to run on an Atmel part.It's not entirely ideal, but if you don't want to be buying CPLDs of questionable origin, it is perhaps worth a try.EPM7032 = ATF1502EPM7064 = ATF1504EPM7128 = ATF1508

author: lfldp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 09:58:09 am
content: Quote from: TomS_ on January 10, 2022, 08:08:27 amhiif this is enough for yours project and you dont need complex cpld you can try avr da, db , and latest atmega series it have custom logic implemented and can run from 1,8V - 5V but maximum 8 LUTs available in one IC