Massive Li battery fire in Korea factory kills 22. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 12:41:43 pm
content: Aaaand now, eevblogs favourite, Mr Candongan!

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 12:57:56 pm
content: Do we actually know for sure it was an accident with a single defective cell that kicked it off?The timing is suspiciously soon after Putin's visit to North Korea and South Korea announced a switch from neutral to supporting Ukraine. There have also been suspicious factory fires in Germany recently.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 01:36:06 pm
content: Video of the fire breaking out.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cgllkjexkrgoIt's a tragedy for sure. It looks like there were very limited controls over where cells were placed. If these cells are as volatile as the video shows, why were they not kept apart, in an area with fire protection and extinguishing equipment. The staff are trying to extinguish lithium ion batteries with a regular fire extinguisher, it is a fools errand. There is cardboard and plastic all around.Also a bit of a mystery how 23 died (updated death toll) in what was a relatively common type of factory fire - I could understand the factory fire propagating but how on earth did so many manage to get trapped - were fire exits blocked? Did the fire alarm function appropriately? Were drills run regularly to ensure staff knew where to evacuate?

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 01:56:53 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 25, 2024, 12:57:56 pmDo you have any sources? The only larger factory fire i can think of is where a group of activists burned down a power tower supplying Tesla's Gigafactory.Otherwise i am not aware of anything out of the ordinary.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 02:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on June 25, 2024, 01:56:53 pmThis, for example:https://www.dw.com/en/germany-fire-breaks-out-at-berlin-metal-factory/a-68992842

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 02:38:04 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 25, 2024, 12:57:56 pmWhile I agree with the first statement, automatically suspecting Putin because some mishap happened is ridiculous.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 02:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on June 25, 2024, 01:56:53 pmIt's a small factory, not even close to the largest factory fires that happened. As of people who died, I suspect it's not due to the lack of exits but due to intoxication and inability to find the exit due to smoke.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 03:08:57 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 25, 2024, 02:38:04 pmIt would be ridiculous to come to an automatic assumption, but it would also be ridiculous to not consider it as a possibility. The Russian leadership considers itself to be at war with the entire West, whether we take that seriously enough or not (we're not).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 10:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 25, 2024, 01:36:06 pmAnd even if it were a “normal” fire with the correct type of extinguisher for the type of fire, the video is a master class in hownotto use a fire extinguisher: the worker is shooting it off from a large distance, towards the top of the fire.FYI, the correct way to use one is to get fairly close and aim at thebaseof the flames.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2024, 11:59:17 pm
content: @brucehoult maybe you should re-read the Forum rules on posting politics and wars. Unless you deliberate on having this topic locked.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 12:14:46 am
content: Quote from: Bud on June 25, 2024, 11:59:17 pmI'm just stating facts here, not taking a side. Unlike most here, I've lived and worked in Russia for a few years (more time than I have in the USA), and would be happy to do so again if/when the current situation ends. I talk regularly to a number of friends in both Russia and Ukraine.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 12:56:07 am
content: As battery farms will become more common and larger, there will be some fun times ahead for sure.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 01:22:53 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 25, 2024, 10:29:44 pmI wouldn't want to get close to a jet of flames like that. They should have either had a better powerful fire extinguisher, or a panic fire button. Not that either of those would have necessarily helped either..Wonder what charge state the batteries are shipped at.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 06:54:34 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 26, 2024, 01:22:53 amOf course one shouldn’t get excessively close. But you’d think that in a company that deals in lithium batteries, they’d have established procedures which they’d train employees in. Including when to just evacuate. They certainly wouldn’t/shouldn’t teach people to delay evacuating in order to uselessly discharge an extinguisher from a distance where it couldn’t do anything, at the wrong part of a fire it is categorically incapable of fighting!

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 07:25:45 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 26, 2024, 06:54:34 amYou could think so! When I was dealing with building li-ion battery packs - and I had, at most, only some 5000 18650 cells at my site, I, just for my own mental health, already come up with some procedures which were more effective than what these guys had. It was as simple as having a large container of water next to the welding robot station, designed as such that the pack being welded will physically fit in said water container, so that I can just push the whole pack into the water within seconds. And coming up with such process cost me justa few minutesof my time.It is well known how ineffective regular fire extinguishers (foam, powder or CO2) are against li-ion (or primary lithium, too) battery fires since the cells have internal oxidizers, but on the other hand it's also well known how effective using large amounts of water is, because thermal runaway stops by effective cooling.Heck, even some fairly small fire brigades have been coming up with ways to submerge whole vehicles in a massive container. Submerging just packaged cells at a factory isorders of magnitudeeasier.Just basic separation of areas stuff; not too many cells in one spot. Companies can successfully manufacture ammunition, explosives, explosive reagents and whatever without these factories blowing up right and left. Just borrow some of the same strategies.EDIT:Note the above comments of water were assuming li-ion, which in this case seems incorrect speculation. As they were dealing with primary (non-rechargeable) lithium batteries, which contain lithium metal, which reacts with water, using water might be problematic.

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 07:26:30 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 25, 2024, 01:36:06 pmIf this is similar to how a lot of QC/packaging factory in the area are configured, factory floor tend to ends up compartmentalized. Either into actual rooms for sections offices, or into mazes due to large equipment, racks or even stacks of products.Combine that with how quick the fire develop, how late emergency/evacuation appears to be declared, and most importantly: smoke. It almost always smoke.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 07:36:56 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 25, 2024, 03:08:57 pmThis is not the place for your considerations on this matter.And it is not the place for my considerations either so I will refrain from posting them.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 07:49:49 am
content: Did the sprinklers not work or was the smoke that poisonous?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 08:54:41 am
content: Biggest fire hazard is organic solvents used, in fluid an aerosol form, and biggest health hazard are released various fluorides like HF (Hydrogen Fluoride), especially in closed space. Not that solvents used are safe anyways.In a battery factory fire could have spread to solvents not yet put in batteries, if that is present on site.Basically Li batteries burn because they are full of "gasoline". Electrolytes provide exothermic reaction that ignites the battery, but it is mostly the organic solvents that are fuel.Explosion is mostly gas pressure, but if it creates solvent cloud then you can have what is basically an aerosol bomb. It is lucky that it is not easy for that to happen. But a solvent aerosol cloud conflagration can happen and that is not much better.Pouring water on burning battery not only cools the ignited material, but also absorbs hydrogen fluoride, forming hydrofluoric acid. If plenty of water is used, acid is weak and not very harmful.If you get exposed to gaseous hydrogen fluoride that is very bad news. It creates horrible injuries.So yeak, Li battery is quite a vile cocktail of dangerous...As someone said before, factory should be constructed with that in mind..

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 01:00:31 pm
content: It seems the fire started on the second floor and there were only a few staircases where evacuation would have been possible. The heavy smoke would have quickly incapacitated people.I would have thought a smoke extraction system would be mandatory for a facility like this. Obviously it won't stop the fire spreading but makes the escape time a little longer.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 01:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 25, 2024, 12:57:56 pmThe fire at Diehl in Berlin happened in the electroplating shop for car parts. They make a lot of stuff, not just defence products, e.g. T&M.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 02:27:12 pm
content: Most of the dead were Chinese nationals.https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/about-20-bodies-found-after-fire-south-korea-battery-plant-yonhap-reports-2024-06-24/HWASEONG, South Korea, June 24 (Reuters) - A lithium battery factory in South Korea was set on fire after multiple batteries exploded on Monday, killing 22 workers,most of them Chinese nationals, fire officials said.The fire and a series of explosions ripped through the factory run by primary battery manufacturer Aricell in Hwaseong, an industrial cluster southwest of the capital Seoul.The victims likely succumbed to extremely toxic gas within seconds of the blaze getting out of control, the officials said. It was unclear what caused the explosions and the fire was largely extinguished in about six hours.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 03:52:26 pm
content: Apparently those were lithium-thionyl chloride batteries, and it does not look like they made any rechargeable batteries.

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 04:17:55 pm
content: If you have ever met a bipolar patient prescribed too much lithium, and have seen the effects of it in the body, you wouldn't want this crap in your environment. Its in the air, in the ground water, its everywhere now. And just like recycling, it goes straight in the ground after the cells go bad in just a couple of years. The cheap plastic packaging will ensure everyone gets an effective dose in them before they have a chance to get mad about it too.What I want to know is why the lithium push happened before the infrastructure to recapture this crap was established and proven. The potential for lithium fires don't scare me nearly as bad as everyone ending up antisocial, uncoordinated, and drooling on themselves. Soon, landfills will catch fire from one dented battery and that fire will simultaneously release all the lithium contained in said landfill forming water soluble lithium salts that go straight into our ground water. Just like the tetraethyl lead problem, another tsunami of problems is on the way. Everywhere there is freedom, another country sees a landfill.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 04:26:51 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 25, 2024, 01:36:06 pmVideo indicates these Chinese was just imported dirt cheap uneducated labour. They had no idea whats in the battery and how dangerous the whole factory was.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 04:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: antenna on June 26, 2024, 04:17:55 pmImagine if you applied this philosophy to computers. We'd all still be using 8086 or 6502 based computers with CRT displays, no progress would be made until e-waste could be safely processed.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 04:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 26, 2024, 03:52:26 pmThose are usually very docile products, used by the billion, with very little to be concerned about.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 04:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 26, 2024, 04:40:36 pmApparently not so:https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19870007963Google "lithium-thionyl chloride batteries fire"

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 04:57:46 pm
content: Still dont get it why gov regulators allows LiPo on planes!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:03:20 pm
content: Quote from: MT on June 26, 2024, 04:57:46 pmIf you ban LiPo on planes, you ban anyone carrying a phone, tablet, or notebook. The kind of thing every business traveller needs to make travel work for them. Its not feasible to ban them. They have to be managed. There are controls on batteries in checked in luggage. They try to stop people travelling with large amounts of LiPo batteries.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:17:59 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 26, 2024, 05:03:20 pmNot just business travelers. I'd estimate that on a typical flight, greater than 100%* of passengers have mobile phones. It's not as though having a mobile phone is some kind of an extravagance these days, they're a basic utility for everyone -- it boggles my mind that anyone would think that categorically banning lithium-ion batteries on airplanes is a sensible idea, never mind a practical one. (And before they say "well just take another mode of transport!" -- there are routes that are either nearly impossible to do by any other mode of transport, or categorically impossible. And since not every flight taken is a vacation trip, "just don't travel" is not a useful option, either.)We'd also have to ban Bluetooth earphones, e-readers, digital cameras, vape devices, power banks, flashlights, and other obviously useful things. Oh, and we'd have to ban the Boeing 787 and Airbus A350, too.*Because many people have two phones, especially business travelers.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:28:06 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 26, 2024, 05:17:59 pmI said business travellers because most holiday makers would probably still travel if you banned all their LiPo batteries. Taking them away from a business traveller usually wrecks the whole purpose of the journey. Its business travel the keeps the airline industry going.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 26, 2024, 05:03:20 pmThey try, yeah thats hilarious! 10 or 100 lipos, is the limit on a whim?Well, dont tie your life to smart phones, tablets etc or make special bissniss traveler rides to they can die on their own.What about a fire proof box on every flight where travelers are required to place the battery before flight? Is that to much of a safety requirement?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: MT on June 26, 2024, 05:30:15 pmSeveral planes have had emergency landings due to problems with LFP batteries in the plane's systems. I am unaware of an emergency landing related to the LiPo batteries in people's personal electronics. Maybe you should focus on the things causing real world problems.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 26, 2024, 05:33:21 pmIm focusing on real problems but you seams just apologetic for reckless human behaviour , 9 years ago it was a real problem then.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 26, 2024, 05:28:06 pmI don't think that is evenremotelytrue. Not to mention that, as I said, not all non-business travel is for leisure.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:42:14 pm
content: Quote from: MT on June 26, 2024, 05:30:15 pmWhat would be eminently doable, though IMHO completely unnecessary, is to require every device to be inside a fireproof lithium batterypouch. (Edit: apparently they're known as "thermal containment bags".)However, I think that's really overkill. What isn't overkill is what airlines are already doing, which is to carryemptyfireproof pouches, into which an overheating device can be placed as needed, using the fireproof gloves they also carry.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: MT on June 26, 2024, 05:37:52 pmThat does not support your point. At all.It says a pallet with thousands of batteries in the hold of the airplane could explode if it caught fire. It does not say my cell phone is going to bring down an airplane.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2024, 05:46:12 pm
content: Quote from: MT on June 26, 2024, 05:37:52 pmCoppice said people's personal electronics (as in, the electronics carried with them).Newsflash: cargo aircraft don't carry passengers.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2024, 05:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 26, 2024, 05:03:20 pmAin't going to happen but let's suppose they were banned when the problems first became apparent. Would business travellers have stayed home? The most likely workaround would have been removable batteries - you leave your battery at departures and just grab a new one from the arrival airport. Since they'd be being sold by the million they would be cheap, and there might even have been trade-in at departures to provide the supplies for arrivals.OK, so what about the 8 hours in the air when you can't browse pron? Surely it wouldn't have been beyond the wit of an airline to provide 19V power points (or USB or whatever). After all, you ain't going anywhere other than sitting in that seat the entire time.Bonus: Apple would have had to conform or suffer a drop in revenue - fate worse than death for them. And if you can replace the battery the chances are other repairs would have been much easier too.Too late now, though.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2024, 07:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 26, 2024, 05:46:12 pmBut passenger aircraft do carry a lot of cargo. I wonder what, if any, controls they have against this type of incident in a cargo bay threatening hundreds of passengers?

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2024, 07:16:43 pm
content: What will happen if you ban batteries on planes is that people will drive instead. Congratulations, your death toll just went up by 10x or more.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2024, 07:22:01 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on June 27, 2024, 07:16:43 pmHere are my flights from 1-October-2017 to 30-September-2018 (12 months). Which ones should I have driven instead?https://hoult.org/trips1.pnghttps://hoult.org/trips2.pngThat year was a bit excessive. Since March 2020 the only flights I've taken were to Fiji on March 30 this year and back home on May 31. Not really practical to drive that one either.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2024, 07:37:34 pm
content: Obviously not all air trips are replaceable with car trips. Many are.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2024, 07:51:34 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 27, 2024, 07:05:18 pmFor all intents and purposes, they are not allowed as cargo.https://www.iata.org/contentassets/05e6d8742b0047259bf3a700bc9d42b9/lithium-battery-guidance-document.pdf

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2024, 08:29:31 pm
content: QuoteIf you picked the right season you could drive across the Bering Sea, so that would be half of them

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2024, 08:35:03 pm
content: these are lithium primary cells of the lithium thinoyl chloride type.Useful for cold temp low current, i.e. D cell "xenos". About as safe as a xenomorphTheir used for high rel big shelf life and hermetically sealed. More then likely this was a dodgy seal, combined with maybe a sliver of metal to short it out, or simply a internal short to blow the top open.They are built robust, its designed to survive a autoclave or antarctica.They contain a corrosive reagent, which is lithium thinoyl chloride. Its like sulfuric acid tantalum capacitors but for batteries.I suspect that basically they use these for medical. People want cheap medical and its driven down to a cost because whos paying for that stuff anyway, its not like you can't pay in a civil society. Medical devices are often extremely cheap (one use), i.e. a single use surgical related device. I suspect this battery was built to a cost.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2024, 10:14:24 am
content: Quote from: MT on June 26, 2024, 05:30:15 pmThere is a limit, yes. 100Wh per battery. Up to two spares per device carried. And then there's the overall 10kg weight allowance.Presumably this limit has been set by experiment, a 100Wh battery fire can be extinguished on board the aircraft or propagation of the fire is not so rapid as to prevent the aircraft from landing.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2024, 10:34:32 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on June 27, 2024, 08:35:03 pmI remember a fair sized metal drum arriving, addressed to me, in the lab one morning, much to the mirth of the other engineers. It turned out to be a Lithium Thionyl Chloride cell sample that I had requested from Tadiran as a memory backup in a military radio prototype. The drum was full to the brim with Vermiculite with the little (approx 2/3 AA) cell wedged in the middle! This was back in the early '80s though.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2024, 10:36:07 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 28, 2024, 10:14:24 amAnd AFAIK, there have been zero accidents, and zero seriously close calls (by all means correct me if wrong). (By "accident" I mean something endangering all of the lives on board. Not counting e.g. a case where your phone sets on fire causes some burns on another 1-2 passengers; that can happen in a bus or on the street, so we would need total ban of everything, everywhere!)The limit is working as intended; small fires that are easy to detect and contain early are not of a huge concern. Since consumer li-ion batteries such as used in phones or laptops very rarely set on fire, it's a very low-risk, medium consequence problem, allowing people to carry their mobile phones and laptops is well worth it. (Very low risk but high consequence; or medium risk, medium consequence problems would need different thinking).

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2024, 10:50:33 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 28, 2024, 10:14:24 am100Wh would be 20,000 mAh at 5V, which is a figure I've seen elsewhere.A gf carries around a 30,000 mAh power bank e.g. on flights Chisinau - Istanbul - Singapore - Nadi in late March, and the reverse in late May and has not been questioned doing that. (I didn't know about the power bank, or research the limit, until she arrived in Nadi with it)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2024, 02:00:21 pm
content: Whenever I have flown with my larger power bank the security staff at the airport have checked the printed rating on the power bank.I don't think they check laptops, etc. but those limits are probably set by other consumer laws (i.e. you can't sell a laptop with >100Wh if you want people to be able to fly with it, which is pretty important for a laptop.)And yes, the consequence of any battery fire is quite high but the likelihood is very low so I think it's fine. Note that you're not allowed to charge li-ion batteries during takeoff and landing stages on a flight, which is one way to reduce the risk as cabin crew would be seated during that time and it would be a lot harder to tackle any fire.The biggest risk is things like vapes which use 18650s. These batteries are not really safe for general consumer use, as the plastic wrapping that isolates the positive and negative can be easily damaged (the shell on most 18650s is connected to negative IIRC.) So it only takes a bit of metal in the wrong place to cause a short and those can be extremely dangerous. I don't know if they are restricted or not.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2024, 02:01:08 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on June 28, 2024, 10:34:32 amthings get interesting when its like "if we don't do this, we get people with broken bones dying from infection because the epoxy pump is not sterile". The doctor might not care about the dangers because he has alot in the hospital, unlike a high end R&D department.its kinda scary but I think basically these batteries go right out to allow someone to do the impossible in a pakistan hospital or something.