I like repairing Analogue Electronics because ... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2017, 12:33:24 pm
content: Quite often the faulty bit shows its self.Its a Tek 465B with the dreaded arcing sound. I first thought I would need to pull the tube out, but a shield underneath labelled “ high voltage” was the clue. A pretty arc from one of the 2450V smoothing caps. It works fine with it removed, but I found replacements easily enough. They are only 5KV rated, small stuff !!!.Ken

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2017, 12:49:55 pm
content: That's a nice easy one fortunately. The same is not the case when you get a slight performance degradation which is what I have on both my 465B and 475 units. Also if it's the HV multiplier, enjoy getting that out and replacing it. Have to take the interface board out which is one of those jobs I just don't want to have to deal with. You can see the two mounting nuts for it in your pictureMake sure you clean all the black crud off everything when you replace it with some IPA or something - it can arc out to that as well.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2017, 01:09:58 pm
content: Yes I know what you mean. I also have an old tek 422 that works fine except the trace is fat. Its as if the triggering is jittering and so traces are landing slightly delayed or advanced over. Yet scoping the trigger signal it looks absolutely rock solid, no jitter at all. That will keep me busy for a while !.Ken

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2017, 01:11:36 pm
content: Tek 422 is a nice piece of kit. Post some pictures if you crack it openKeep failing to win them on ebay

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2017, 04:50:08 pm
content: Or it can be rephrased - i like repair analog electronics because i dont know how to deal with digital.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2017, 05:21:18 pm
content: Digital can be a real pain sometimes. I used to (try to ) repair a small control board that comprised 6 Lattice FPGA's, that ran very hot normally. They would sometimes start behaving strangely, and it was a guess as to what was wrong. Of course the bloke who wrote the code, (on a compaq laptop that was new when he did) had long since left the company, so there was no one to work out how these damn things worked, or didn't.At least if it blows there is generally a hole in the top !.Ken

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 12:57:10 am
content: Agree, didital systems has higher density and complex behavior. And if you facing software loss like micro controller with mask rom inside, You almost screwed.And failures are not so obvious like in analog devices.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 05:19:15 am
content: Quote from: Samogon on October 28, 2017, 12:57:10 amHave you repaired much analog stuff?Subtle faults in analog equipment are more the rule than the exception.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 07:33:24 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on October 28, 2017, 05:19:15 amNot much, nowadays electronics in most cases hybrid of digital and analog parts, like transceivers forInstance even they have tendency to become mostly digital.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 07:53:49 am
content: In general electronics tends to last a very long time, if it has been designed properly.I use to repair control boards and displays that were made in 2000, a mix of analogue channels and digital processing, generally the faults were components being shaken off the board or a certain CAN driver used to fail occasionally. Not bad for 17 years 24/7 operation.Ken

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 11:01:57 am
content: I like repairing Analogue Electronics because:-Im so old Iv been to the 1893 world fair and met Tesla in person-dont like learning new things-get off my lawndid I miss anything?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 11:26:02 am
content: Everything is analogue under all the abstractions

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 01:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 28, 2017, 11:26:02 amActually it's digital under all the abstractions. The test gear gets expensive though when you start talking quantum voltage levels.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 05:02:53 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on October 28, 2017, 11:01:57 amThe fact that I'm 21 and repair tube circuits...

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2017, 10:32:14 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 28, 2017, 05:02:53 pmoh yeah, forgot one indeed-hipsterthanks

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2017, 01:51:50 am
content: I like it because the parts are so much bigger for a start and if you have big hands and poor eyesight thats a real bonusAlso of course the circuit is a little bit easier to trace out and the parts are normally clearly labelled with their part numbers, modern SMD sucks because its the opposite of the above in every sense.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2017, 02:14:05 am
content: I like to repair analog electronics because i don't know, or want to know, how to deal with obvious digital throwaways and their bugs.I don't need or want a retool or cumbersome microscope rig to play with and hog bench spaceThere's NO MONEY in itMore'because'to follow, watch this space...

author: Armadillo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2017, 03:00:01 am
content: I like it because it is the easiest and cheapest to repair, it's plain old vanilla, without digital, no scrambling, no encoding hence no need decoding, no secret keying, at most its inverted, that's it.No need to know all those protocols. No need to buy all those interfaces, debuggers, emulators, programmers. Save a lot of money.One Channel we call it mono, Two Channels we call it stereo, things are that simple, no bits, bytes, words, floating points etc... hence single sided circuit board is easy to trace.No need to use microscope and don't even need to wear a loupe, no need bright lighting, candle light will do.Even if one day my soldering hands vibrate to a span of +/- 10mm, it will still be right for the job.

author: flowib
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2017, 09:29:24 pm
content: You're not alone, I'm 22 and got more boatanchors then i can count... Nicest is perhaps my tek 585A.Analog is by no means a forgotten art, however the curriculum for EE students has in my opinion moved too far away from analog circuitry, its all software and signal processing theorem atm.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2017, 09:48:50 pm
content: It was like that when I went to university. First lab was building a successive approximation ADC. Second lab was Pascal. Third lab was poking VHDL.Lecturers were like: Transistors, in 1994!?!?!? Those dirty cheap legged whores can be replaced by a £20 Linear opamp don't you know!!!! Want to turn something on and off? Buy a Darlington IC and behold the pin count!!!!!

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2017, 10:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 29, 2017, 09:48:50 pmAnd thats what they call progress, basically building a lot of good useful stuff but when it goes wrong, throw it away and buy another with all the pollution that all of that entails, never mind global warming' lets just keep churning out parts because the factories want them even more with builtin obsolescence

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2017, 10:51:10 pm
content: Yes it gets a bit wasteful of stuff.I got a faulty 28" Cello TV that was being chucked out and the fault was the soldered joint on the DC connector had broken down. If they had used lead solder, it would have filleted the joint so been a lot stronger mechanically and would have lasted.The push is to "buy new electronic stuff" when the old stuff is still working fine, where will it end ?.Ken

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 09:30:40 am
content: I'm doing ok out of fixing stuff headed for landfill so I'm not complainingLast year was the best win. Dead Samsung 40" OLED TV, about £500 retail. Buyer listed on ebay "Dead. Makes burning smell when turned on" and "buyer collects only" with 85% positive feedback which is pretty shit. So low risk as I could see if it was nicked or the guy was an idiot first, put a £50 bid in and won it for £0.99. One capacitor later and it's sorted... total expenditure £2.20 and a 5 minute drive. And the £2.20 was only because RS only sold the damn capacitors in packs of 5.He nearly cried when I said he could keep the change from the £1 coin I gave himGot receipts as well for it. You know the stupid thing? He had no idea that it was still warranty returnable after a year.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 10:00:42 am
content: Yeh, I keep hoping that I'm going to find something like that but all the things I go after, everyone else decides that they want it as well and it ends up in a bidding war and either I decide that I'm pulling out or I get the bit between my teeth and keep going and end up paying more than I really wanted toOther times I watch it and decide that I'll bid on it at the last minute and normally one of two things happen, either the seller pulls it from the sale, or I forget to bid and it never sells

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 10:12:27 am
content: Yeah that's a killer too. Been there a few times.The winning formula for a seller is:1. Low feedback2. A least one negative3. Unsociable hours listing4. Doesn't know what it is.5. Can't spell6. General dumbass (fortunately we live in the UK so there's plenty of them!)7. Collection only.I'll always set alarms for when they finish

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 10:40:32 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2017, 10:12:27 amSearching "spairs or repair" gets a lot of those.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 11:09:21 am
content: That's genius

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 11:21:42 am
content: There's a program called Fat Fingers that you can use for looking duff spelling options.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 11:44:03 am
content: I've actually written my own version of that. I wrote a parser in python that breaks words down into phonemes and then a visitor builds an alternative tree and writes them all out. Basically does stuff like this:te-k-tr-o-n-ix -> te-c-tr-o-n-icsAlso handles missing sounds which people forget a lot like S on the end.My sister was a consultant on that project because she was a speech therapist

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 02:01:20 pm
content: Ever thought about either selling it or making it available as a download?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 03:04:19 pm
content: Yes and the answer was no. Never reveal your secret weapon

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 02:36:31 am
content: ...no one ever painted their DS1054Z like thishttps://www.ebay.ca/itm/Tektronix-545A-Oscilloscope-Powers-Up-Responds-W-Type-CA-Plug-In-SR256/311944221773

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 01:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on October 28, 2017, 01:03:17 pmNO !!Digital is a subset of analogue.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 01:51:34 pm
content: No he means at the electron level,so we are counting electrons now are we ?. Certainly beats counting sheep to get to sleep !.1 electron, 2 electron, 3 electron, 4 elec …...zzzzzzzKen

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 02:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: Kilo Tango on October 31, 2017, 01:51:34 pmYou are of course correct. I didn't read the post fully.I award myself the

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 02:28:11 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 30, 2017, 09:30:40 amWhy didn't you just use the warranty?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 03:14:34 pm
content: Samsung warranty isnt worth shit after the first year. It’ll go to a third party repairer who will wreck it further or send another screwed up unit out as a replacement.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 04:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2017, 03:14:34 pmWell I have loads of Samsung stuff and have yet to have any problems, 3 TV's 1 monitor, 2 mobile phones and a tablet....

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 05:26:09 pm
content: Check out their trustpilot:https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.samsung.com/uk/Their stuff is ok while it remains working. I wouldn't buy anything of theirs new now. We've had a fridge fail in under two years, a washing machine die and several dead handsets that have been dumped after 6-9 months of updates and then the hardware fails. Not really impressed.Oh and the dead TV but that one went in my favour

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 05:36:40 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2017, 05:26:09 pmI'm not sure where those people on Trustpilot come from, but EU consumer law dictates you don't have anything to do with the manufacturer. You buy from the seller and as such, he has to ensure you receive a working device within the obligatory warranty period. If the device kicks the bucket, you take it back to the seller and he has to repair or replace. After that, it's between the seller and the manufacturer. Sellers often try to evade this by redirecting you to the manufacturer, but that's just a cheap trick to save costs.Then again, most people don't have the faintest idea what their rights actually are. They tend to claim rights they don't have, and not use rights they do actually have. Most things can easily be found with some Google savvy and a spare evening, but somehow people just won't.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 05:47:41 pm
content: I think to be honest that if you check on most companies these days, customer service is something that they really don't want to do which in part why the correct thing in the UK is take up any warranty issues with the seller as your contract is with them firstly and manufacturer if the seller is no longer in business.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 05:51:58 pm
content: The seller will usually refer to the manufacturer.Also it’s 2 years in the EU of statuatory warranty. In the UK it’s 6 years under CRA and the bit that people don’t realise is that it’s up to the buyer to prove that the defect was present after 6 months has elapsed or accept a repair by the retailer or manufacturer. This requires paying for an expensive independent report in most circumstances. The repair will be done by the lowest bidder. It’s not uncommon to find your phone which wasn’t water damaged come back with the water detection stickers activated because it’s cheaper to wet them and blame the owner with a handling fee than actually fix it.You’re best only buying things you can afford to sling in a skip every 6 months.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 05:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on October 31, 2017, 05:47:41 pmIf I'm not mistaken, that's actually how EU consumer law is constructed. In some cases, you might even lose the warranty the seller is obliged to give you, and become dependent on the warranty another party voluntarily gives you. That's obviously usually the manufacturer warranty, but much more can be excluded than a seller ever could.However, a lot of people somehow tend to seek out the manufacturer. He's not under any obligation to help you, unless they explicitly promised they would. Anything printed on the box would be considered such a promise.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 05:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2017, 05:51:58 pmIf a seller refers you to a manufacturer, you know to take your business elsewhere next time. They can try, of course.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 06:08:28 pm
content: Yes of course. This is why a large chunk of the retail electronics sector has gone down the shitter in the last decadeApple are the only ones I’d consider reasonable. My wife cracked the screen on her 6s and they just gave her a whole new handset for the £25 premium. Headphones died, walk in walk out and sorted.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 06:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2017, 06:08:28 pmDon't let Louis Rossmann hear you

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 06:22:35 pm
content: Rossmann is a crazy person. It’s really not practical to repair some things these days past FRU swap out and having done rework in the defence sector, I wouldn’t trust any of the repairs. The only niche it fits is when someone can’t afford to replace whatever they bought and that his Labour is marginally cheaper.What don’t factored into any of his videos is repair longevity. Track rework and bodge wires on some of them have a lifetime of weeks. Long enough to get paid.Buy shit you can afford to replace or can be repaired if you can’t. Stuff that’s easy to repair costs an order of magnitude more. Your Tektronix 465B is about £15,000 in real money or a £370 Rigol. Hmm. Finances don’t add up.Also what’s your time worth?

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 06:50:50 pm
content: Its all well and good buying what you can afford to skip should it fail, but for most people their income doesn't allow them that luxury. Most people will expect to get at least 5 years of work out of a product and even then, it's still a struggle affording a replacement.Yes SMD stuff does not lend itself to easy repairs, but it does not have to be that way. It is still perfectly feasible to use modern manufacturing techniques and still be repairable, it just takes the makers a little effort to put together some decent service manuals with some typical failure modes and what to look for to determine what has failed and then to make these parts available at a sensible cost and timeframe.It is not good for the planet to be skipping so much stuff simply because manufacturers can get away it in the name of profits and no government is going to bring in laws to change it because the politicians often have vested interests in these large companies for their own personal gain.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 07:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on October 31, 2017, 06:50:50 pmAnd that is the truth.I would add that local councils shout the "environment" language but won't let you take stuff from the skips at the dump. You can see brand new Dysons, you know the mains lead is broken because they used cheap wire but will they let you have it? Not in a million years. Lip service is all it is.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 07:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on October 31, 2017, 07:02:42 pmAmen to that.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 07:07:53 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2017, 06:22:35 pmI won't pretend to have any experience with his services, but he has a 90 day warranty on board level repairs and says to work with people outside of that period, which seems to be true. Yelp reviews also seem generally favourable.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 07:55:59 pm
content: For reference I agree with you both (or I wouldn’t be buying old scopes all the time). The problem is a practicality one really. We demand things which are smaller and faster with better battery life and that drives innovation and decreases size. Eventually we get to a level of integration where specialist repairs are required or it’s a write off. Louis is riding the twilight zone between the two sides of the fence. He has good reviews because the alternative for people is to by again because they can’t afford to. They can’t afford to own what they have.Conversely we’re actually starting to build things that can be recycled (look at WEEE) which is unlike the situation previously where we’d be burying nasty mercury, lead and beryllium oxide filled crap.There’s good and bad.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 08:02:16 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2017, 07:55:59 pmTo an extent, you have a point there, but the other side of the coin also says that there is commercial value to the extraction of certain materials, the cynic in me says that take the commercial reward away and see just how quick that service, like the products are confined to landfill again.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 08:23:09 pm
content: Of course there is. That’s the entire point of the recycling industry. You can’t incentivise the human race to do anything unless there is some selfish gain. So the recyclers take in a skip full of LCD televisions and outcomes pelletised plastics, glass, metals which they sell to foundries who make them back into products because recycled materials are cheaper than raw refined ones.Some does inevitably go to landfill which is unavoidable at the moment but reducing that is happening all the time as we learn how to process it all.One thing I did find funny a few weeks back is I dropped my tape dispenser, a cheapy from amazon. And you know what I found in it? It was jammed packed full of Recycled metal. Cheeky buggers.Anyway all of this pales in comparison to the ridiculous packaging everything comes in, particularly foods. Most of it is non recyclable films.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 11:18:33 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 31, 2017, 06:22:35 pmLongevity isn't factored into the videos, it's factored into the reviews we've accumulated over the past 8 years.https://www.yelp.com/biz/rossmann-repair-group-new-york-2https://plus.google.com/105789485864924206597?gl=US&hl=en-USOur license number with the NYC department of consumer affairs is 1418138. We have not had a single claim filed.Running a wire beats letting a rotten trace be trusted to carry a line over the lifespan of a device. We do not leave suspect junk on the boards we work on or repair what should be trashed.Our track record and reputation is public for anyone curious. Whrre is yours? Please, speak for yourself!I think most companies that talk about Recycling and being good to the environment our virtue signaling. Example, Apple forcing recyclers to shred their devices before we get our hands on them while claiming to care about sustainability. That's all the pile of crap to keep government Regulators at bay. I also find many screaming about environmental benefits only doing so to excuse giving more power to the government when they themselves don't care at all.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2017, 11:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on October 31, 2017, 08:02:16 pmAs soon people start realizing there is no waste, but all resources being thrown out, things will turn around. Right now it's cheaper to dig it out of the ground than to reclaim it out of old electronics, but that obviously can't last forever.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 12:01:38 am
content: It’s really not. Look at commodities markets. Transporting things is a big cost.Quote from: vze1lryy on October 31, 2017, 11:18:33 pmI have watched your videos and process and I can’t agree with the long term viability. Reviews, fine. I don’t get any negative feedback even if I don’t successfully fix something. I’m paid to throw a life ring out.The problem with the bodge wires is that they affect both mechanical and electrical reliability. For example if you look at bus lines, relflections and termination are important. Fundamentally that alters the characteristics and the designed in parameters such as trace length. While the general case may appear to work in he short term, mechanical stress caused by expansion and contraction on a solder joint can kill it dead again. Even if you anchor, epoxy it afterwards it will fail and fail quicker than the rest of the board. On top of that if it screws a bus transaction 1 in a million times, is the user going to notice their data getting hosed? Not until something crashes. Not like the machines have ECC in them. If you’re reworking power, less important.What you’re doing is a sticky plaster. Albeit a decent one. It’s always temporary. It’s better than leaving the status quo but that’s it.My argument is about scrapping the FRU entirely instead of repair. The reason people pay for your services is that they either (a) screwed up the hardware themselves so aren’t covered by warranty (b) out of warranty (consumer protection is shit in the US) or (c) the cost is lower than an FRU replacement. You’re in that twilight zone of helplessness where the user didn’t pay for an extended warranty and can’t afford a new device ergo they run a risk assessment trivially and go for repair. . On that basis, could they afford to run the device to start with? Probably not. And that’s a cultural problem.My reputation comes from reworking and QA’ing milspec flight hardware for a defence contractor. Not something I can demonstrate publicly really unfortunately. That stuff was designed to be reworked though, not shitcanned like most consumer electronics. The parts that were disposable usually blew up intentionally.Please note that I’m not for scrapping stuff and I think for what you have to work with you do a wonderful job but fundamentally I think this repair approach is a symptom of a larger problem in the industry. You’re in a niche that exists because of that. I don’t think it’s the best answer or the best solution.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 12:13:44 am
content: You seem quite sure about people having things repaired because they don't have any other recourse. Or because they can't afford the device they own, in your words. I don't see any reason why someone who can actually afford a new device wouldn't save a few hundred to thousand bucks to get his device repaired. It being a last resort seems mostly dependent on it being obviously inferior. If you have a repair that's going to last the useful life of your device, and is cheaper than replacing, it could well be a viable option. Of course, there's more than just board level repairs too, like simply replacing a screen.Obviously, you view repairs as very temporary at best, but I'm hesitant to agree without more to go on. As you say, military hardware is quite different, so I'm not sure that's the best source of information. Louis Rossmann seems to be in a privileged position in the sense that he has a large dataset to work with, even though he obviously also has a stake in the viability of repair.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 12:25:05 am
content: If you read my comments, you will see the distinction between board and FRU level repairs. FRU repairs are less likely to result in decrease in reliability. Apple glue all the FRUs together which is a problem these days. Ergo my point is if you spend money on premium hardware, that should be their problem. If you can’t afford to make it their problem, should you pay for that hardware to start with? Vote with your feet. Buy a shitty acer instead.I’ve repaired 100 or so laptops (Lenovo, HP, Apple) over the last few years for ref. I’ve dealt with smoked and burned MagSafe connectors, water damage to MBPs, coffee and shit encrusted thinkpads. I wouldn’t go near board repair because I wouldn’t be able to guarantee what i kick out afterwards.There has been a decline in maintainabiliy recently. I only recommend thinkpad T series to people now as you can predict the maintenance cost going forward.I myself use a 2013 15” i7 MBP which i paid a metric shit ton of cash for at the time. That was covered by Apple care. After that expired I expected to sell it for parts. It’s still going. I can walk in an Apple store and afford to buy another one tomorrow. That’s how you should run your IT. Or refurb thinkpads where you can drop a ubiquitous FRU in and carry on.Edit: you can see this just by walking down a street. Everyone you see with a smashed phone screen. Think about why it’s still smashed.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 12:37:17 am
content: Again, I can't really agree with the notion that these people wouldn't be able to afford a new device and that that's the only reason they opt to repair. It's more likely to be a matter of choosing not to spend it, for various reasons. Even if a repair is bound to be temporary, if it buys you 12 or 15 months, it might very well be a good deal.I must admit, I took apart a Thinkpad for someone the other day and I was pleasantly surprised. Those things are designed with maintenance in mind. I've seen similar modularity before, but only on devices now considered ancient. You don't even sacrifice that much, as they're still fairly spiffy devices. I could even find a maintenance guide to see what part I needed to order. That's neat.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 01:08:09 am
content: I was asked by a computer shop if I could repair computers and I said yes if it was FRU's and the like but they wanted board repairs at that point I said no way, they are way to complicated and unpredictable and even if I was able to fix them, there was a high chance of the same issue reoccuring again or something else. Its cheaper to replace the board. Laptops fill me with dread as everything is custom made, desktops, the board can replaced easily with another and back in business again. Its a shame that laptops weren't made in a similar fashion, I can't vouch for Thinkpads having never seen inside one but I do know that are well made as they have the look and feel of well engineered product.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 07:14:42 am
content: I pretty much stopped mending laptops but that was just me being bored.It would be interesting to know the failure modes. For my part there were always a lot where a capacitor had gone short circuit somewhere in the power system. Hard to find without a Toneohm or similar but for sure absolutely no effect on reliability after repair. Much much better than buying a new one be you rich or poor, green or not.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 07:38:27 am
content: When a thinkpad FRU is less than an hour’s wages, costs and expenses you have to look at the economics.I’ve found that the two niches of utmost reliability and maintenance are buying 2-3 year old ex corporate stuff where there’s a large spares inventory on the market or new stuff with a warranty that is worth something (basically Apple).You know the most reliable devices though: iOS. Literally unless you pulp the thing they just go on and on.I was thinking last night as well. The reason Apple shred their devices is twofold. Firstly they don’t want them appearing on the grey market because they tend to end up in the hands of shitty repairers (market stall phone repairers for example) who do a low quality job and then increase their baseline support cost by dragging them back to an Apple store. Secondly, if shit is broken, and we learned this from Bob Widlar, you take a hammer to it. There’s not a failed inventory sitting around waiting to screw you. We used bag all failed QA parts and get them out of the building pronto.

author: vze1lryy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 02:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 01, 2017, 12:01:38 amThere is a difference between a bad review for something not being fixable and a bad review because something broke repeatedly months later. The former, you would have to be a real douche to leave. The latter would be common.Quote from: bd139 on November 01, 2017, 12:01:38 amThat we are even discussing ECC shows how convoluted this conversation has become. We have to differentiate lines. We're not advocating for a 9" bodge wire being run from the memory to the CPU. We're talking about a 0.05mm wire being run for LCD power feedback or current sensing, which is not going to have any practical affect throughout the usable lifetime of the device. Further, you are welcome to drop any board with this wire on it off a building and check the joint's continuity when dropped.If we were soldering 22 awg speaker wire to a 0201 resistor, fine. But 50 awg magnet wire on a 0603 with a good joint is sticking on there just as fine as the rest of the board.Quote from: bd139 on November 01, 2017, 12:01:38 amThis honestly doesn't surprise me. One of the people that taught me much of what I use today as a diagnostic mindset, used to shoo away any idea of modern repair."that surface mount stuff isn't made to be fixable, and it's too damn small!"This seems to be a common attitude amongst people who are used to working on devices that were designed to be worked on, and it is totally understandable -"I spent my career working on devices where the manufacturer helps you repair them. Now they are designed intentionally to NOT be repairable - "fuck that!"I get it, but if i had listened to many of these naysayers I might actually BELIEVE that board repairs failed because of bodge wires.Most things that come back for warranty are because a CPU mosfet flinched and sent too long a spike of 12v to a CPU, which was part of the initial damage. This has nothing to do with bodge wires, or signals "stopping short" 1 in 100k times due to a wire. These are the devices we deem unfixable from the get go. If a high side MOSFET going to a microprocessor is destroyed, it's probably going into a bin, not worth the hassle for us or the end consumer.Quote from: bd139 on November 01, 2017, 12:01:38 amFixing your phone is a chore. You have to find someone trustworthy, make a trip out of your way, wait in line, etc. A cracked screen if the image is still visible, to many, is not worth adding it to their chores list. Same reason people don't go to the gym two weeks after New Year's.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 03:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: vze1lryy on November 01, 2017, 02:44:15 pmThat's me and the 50 weeks before.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2017, 03:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 01, 2017, 03:29:18 pmCount me in that as well

author: flowib
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 11:59:26 pm
content: Board level repair could be very economically viable if someone took the time to cobble together some in circuit test modules for the mainboards.most if not all the hard to detect failures show up as shorted or out of median resistance nets in a in circuit test for a PCB MLB repair would be a breeze.There are still companies doing component level repair on their products and this can be viable, all through any high energy product will blow up quite violently rendering repair unfeasible.