Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 05:09:49 am
content: Can the DS4000 100 MHz version be hacked to 500 MHz? I've heard conflicting reports on this, and Rigol only officially sells bandwidth upgrades on the 200 MHz and up versions. However, the 100 MHz version does come with four very expensive 500 MHz probes.I was debating the MSO2072A vs MSO4014, if it can be 'reliably' hacked to 500 MHz I was ever so slightly leaning towards the MSO4000. I don't really need 500 MHz of bandwidth, but the extra two analog channels, VGA video connection, 4GSa/s, and higher wfms/s would be nice to have.I've actually already bought a MSO2072A for $929.25 yesterday, it's in transit right now. However, I just learned that the MSO4014 is also 25% off, so right now it's selling for $2594. I can afford to spend that much on a scope, cost is not the issue, I just don't know if it's actually worth the extra money. Realistically electronics is only ever going to be a hobby for me, I make my living in IT. Any help on this decision would be appreciated.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 05:49:41 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 15, 2015, 05:37:31 amBecause the DS4024 doesn't have a logic analyzer built-in. Although, with 4 channels I suppose you wouldn't need that for things like SPI. Also it's not on sale, psychologically it doesn't feel like I'm getting a good deal.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 05:58:41 am
content: QuoteYes from personal experience it can be done and is reliable. AFAIK it is still possible.The scope itself has an inbuilt 500ps risetime calibration signal which can be used to test it.Historically it was thought to not be possible a couple of years ago. Later a custom firmware was developed to do it (MrKrabs), and later it was discovered be doable simply with keys. My theory is that Rigol released a firmware that permitted bandwidth upgrades, hence the change.The 4GS/s is useful as the analog bandwidth is quite wide - signals well above 1GHz can be seen with reduced amplitude.Be aware that the MSO seems to have some timebase limitations around its decoding which I don't see on the DS4014. There was a conversation here a while back on this with some tests done on the MSO. I did the same test on my DS and found it didn't have the same issue. My casual observation is that MSO owners are quite critical of their scopes, whereas DS owners are generally satisfied.So perhaps you would be better off with the DS and a standalone logic analyser.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 05:17:11 pm
content: Well I bought one, so now I have a MSO2072A and MSO4014 coming, I think I have a 30 day return period so perhaps I'll play with both. I totally just blew my budget for an AWG... but I think for this it might be worth it.I've been playing with an Analog Discovery and it's been really helpful in highlighting why I need four channels. Especially while you're still learning, it's really important to get a full view of everything that is happening inside a circuit, because changing the value of a component can completely change the functioning of a circuit. I've only had the Analog Discovery for about two weeks, and I've already gotten frustrated on like 20 occasions with the fact that it only has 2 channels. And that's just playing around with a simple homemade buck converter circuit. 1 channel for the square wave input, 1 channel on the coil, 1 channel on the capacitor, 1 channel on the diode, and 1 channel on the output... err wait, that's five channels... see my point?The other thing the Analog Discovery has taught me is that dealing with a general purpose desktop computer user interface is really quite cumbersome, I'm really glad I followed everyones advise and did not get a high end USB scope. The lag of the USB interface is also very frustrating, you change a setting on the screen and takes like 100+ milliseconds for your instrument to catch up, all the while you're not seeing any output on the screen. It also has very slow wfms/s.The last thing the Analog Discovery has taught me is that I don't 'trust' its readings. When you're a beginner, and have no teacher, you have little clue about what you should be seeing in your circuit traces, so you really have to put a lot of faith and trust that the readings your instrument is giving you is correct. Things like aliasing and bad software math calculations can totally screw up your measurements. On my Analog Discovery I'm seeing all these weird reading that I don't think should be there, but they are there, and I have no clue if they should or shouldn't be there. I have no 'faith' in the instrument, and knowing what I know now I don't think I could have faith in the DS1054Z ether.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 06:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on October 15, 2015, 05:58:41 amDid you just set the AuxOutput to Fast to get this signal?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 06:56:18 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on October 15, 2015, 06:52:51 pmYep

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 07:12:48 pm
content: Curiously what did you measure it with to find out it is 500ps?Also, I don't notice that changing the output impedance between 1M and 50ohms makes any different in what it outputs.It is also odd in that the top of waveform is near 0V and the bottom is negative.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 07:22:21 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on October 15, 2015, 07:12:48 pmHmm, I believe I found it in a spec, I'll see if I can find it again. On my scope the rise time measured at around 780-850ps from memory.It was quite good for playing around with TDR type measurements.QuoteYep I found both of those happened on my scope too.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 07:25:00 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on October 15, 2015, 07:12:48 pmFound it, its in the manual:http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/MSO4000_DS4000_UserGuide_EN.pdf"2) Fast: the oscilloscope outputs a fast edge signal with 500 ps rise time whichcan be used in the self-calibration of the oscilloscope"

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 08:03:09 pm
content: Thanks for pointing it out - I don't know why I didn't notice it before, but it is handy.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 09:27:17 pm
content: Where do I find the 1-to-5 BNC male cable that is recommend in the DS4000 Performance Verification Guide (link below, page 13) to do the self-calibration after I upgrade the bandwidth? Is this step even necessary after a bandwidth upgrade?DS4000 Performance Verification Guide

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 10:24:02 pm
content: http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/Calibration-Kit/General-Accessories/?v=0

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 10:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on October 15, 2015, 10:24:02 pmThank you. Given that the Rigol RP3500A is a $220 probe (4x = $880), I would like to pickup a second set of cheaper lower bandwidth probes for everyday use. Any recommendations? I was thinking 200 MHz probes would be enough for day to day use.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 08:37:03 am
content: What could a DS4012 be hacked up to?its 2 channels but it looks like its actually got 4, ( 2 are not funcitonal? )having 500Mhz would be pretty handy for a few things i want to do.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 08:54:59 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on October 29, 2015, 08:37:03 amCheck the product number on the picture you are looking at - Rigol NA site has a picture of a DS4054 on the DS4012 page. (same pic on all of the DS4k pages by the looks of it)

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 09:24:57 am
content: They sure do! Found an actual 4012 and its only 2 ports. Thats pretty poor.. but anyway... theres a 4012 avaialble at a very resonable price. Two channels will be enough for what i'm doing anyway.If the 4012 coul be hacked to ta 4052, then i think i'd do this rather than buying a 2072.. The higher quality probes woudl be handy as well...

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 12:45:13 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on October 29, 2015, 09:24:57 amScroll up to the second post in this thread for the answer

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 01:26:46 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 15, 2015, 05:37:31 amThis was the 2nd post?? However i can buy a DS4012 ( 2 channel ) for a very very resonable price, but i cant' get a 4024, or 4014 for anywhere near that. ANd for what im doing, 4 channels wont' help me much anyway..So, can the 4012 be "upgraded"

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 01:41:59 am
content: Serves me right for being a smart-ass - it was the 4th post...AFAIK there is no difference between the 2 and 4 channel scopes in the DS4k range in that regard.Need someone with a 2 channel 4k can confirm, but it's highly likely that you can.

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 03:14:20 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on October 30, 2015, 01:26:46 amI would presume so, the option code RZ99 should unlock everything...http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/some-rigol-scopes-are-25-off-at-tequipment/msg776961/

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 05:07:22 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on October 15, 2015, 05:58:41 amThis only refers to teh 4014, and not the 4012.... I'm guessing its ok, but its hard to know.. Has anyone done the 2 channel versions?

author: nbritton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 06:46:12 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on October 30, 2015, 05:07:22 amI have not done it on a 2 channel 4012, but I'm about 90% sure it will work. The DS2000 and DS4000 share the same private keys, and the DS40x2 would be the ancestor of the DS2000 series. Worse case you can always open it up and dump the memory via the JTAG header.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg782647/#msg782647

author: bozidarms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 04:26:25 pm
content: Hi,can somebody, please, finally tell is it possible to convert DS4012 into 500MHz scope?Tnx

author: nil
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 20, 2017, 07:08:11 am
content: I can at least confirm for the DS4024 that I just received Friday, putting in my serial and RZ99 into the url above in the thread did give me the "Bandwidth 500M" upgrade listed in the installed options after entering the code into the utility options setup.

author: Leon23
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 02:17:42 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on October 15, 2015, 05:58:41 amBump! Could you provide with exactly which model did you succeed with the hack?Personally im looking for this on either DS4014 or DS4024 --> DS4052//Leon

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 02:43:52 pm
content: There's always that tiny risk that you'll be the first one buying a scope in which they've somehow prevented the hack but as far as I know it's still possible. Like hendorog I was initially running MrKrabs special firmware and then switched to the official version from Rigol and unlocked it to 500MHz bandwidth using the available keygen.My scope is a DS4014 (2012 vintage), there are those who believe there are (or MIGHT be or CAN be) hardware differences between a DS4014 and a "real" DS4054 but no one has, to my knowledge, been able to say for sure and given that bandwidth upgrades thru software is now a common thing it's highly unlikely IMHO.It would be a waste of Money buying a 4024 if your goal is to turn it into a 4054 (if you don't happen to get a BETTER price on the 4024 obviously).

author: Leon23
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 03:04:52 pm
content: Thank you for quick response and clarification.Yes if it's possible to do 4014-->4054 obviously it seems to be the better deal. If it's possible it seems to be a huge cost save and a good option to get high-end scope features without paying ~$10k USD.I've seen much enthusiasm from Dave regarding the 1054Z scope and some comments about the hack. It would be interesting if he had anything to say on this, possibly even get hands on these models and perform a teardown.It would also be nice to get some more clarification if there is any hardware differences between DS4014 and DS4054 :-).//Leon

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 03:23:52 pm
content: Both reviews and teardowns are available on Youtube, just not by Dave and there's plenty of information on this forum. Just keep in mind that issues discussed years ago may no longer be a concern (like for example the various decoder issues).What would be interesting (and it might just missed it) is what can be done with the new DS4000E series, it's even less money, question is if it's STILL the same hardware, limited even further thru software.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2017, 05:53:27 pm
content: I received an ad for July 4th sale at tequipment that is 30% off Rigol right now (JULY30). I did try it to see if it would work in my cart, but it didn't for me. It says something about member pricing tiers excluded, but they have online chat today so anyone interested in pricy Rigol would be wise to chat with them and try to work it out. That is the biggest savings I've ever seen on Rigol.

author: Leon23
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 08:37:44 am
content: From what I could see on testequipment.net, it seems like this only applies to the MSO2202A which seem to be 30% off.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2017, 12:08:24 pm
content: I suppose it makes sense"30% OFFALLRIGOL*""Excludes ds1054z, open box, demo, b-stock"...*Applies to Select Products Only.Lame....

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 08:40:03 am
content: From today there is a new promo which extends the BW of the MSO/DS4000 100MHz to 200MHz plus all decoding for free ( I2C, SPI, RS232, UART, FlexRay, LIN and CAN).There is a note from RIGOL which says that for those units the future BW upgrade to 350 and 500MHz is NOT possible.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 08:57:27 am
content: Quote from: simone.pignatti on August 24, 2017, 08:40:03 amIIRC there has never been an official BW upgrade from 100MHz to 500MHz.

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 09:28:36 am
content: I just wanted to be clear and precise, thanks

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 10:02:18 am
content: Quote from: simone.pignatti on August 24, 2017, 09:28:36 amSure, however to be perfectly clear - what you said could be misunderstood by people to mean that they cannot hack their scopes to 500MHz.AFAIK there is no such limitation and somehow people think there is despite no proof - so I didn't want your comment to start another round of it.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 10:18:48 am
content: The 100MHz DS4000 is certainly intended to be upgraded to 500MHz. Why else would it be delivered with the expensive 500MHz probes?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 10:24:09 am
content: Quote from: glarsson on August 24, 2017, 10:18:48 amUnfortunately they started shipping the 500 MHz probes after I got mineI only got 350MHz ones...Still can't complain, I got a lot for my $$

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 10:31:42 am
content: Yeah,not possiblein this case probably translates tonot availablemeaning that you won't be able to PURCHASE another round of bandwidth. The free way of getting the full 500MHz will most likely work exactly as before.The official upgrades, according to Batronix website are:BW2T3-MSO/DS4000 Bandwidth Upgrade from 200 MHz to 350 MHz for models MSO/DS402x (2/4 channel)BW2T5-MSO/DS4000 Bandwidth Upgrade from 200 MHz to 500 MHz for models MSO/DS402x (2/4 channel)BW3T5-MSO/DS4000 Bandwidth Upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz for models MSO/DS403x (2/4 channel)So, all they're saying is that you'll pay for 100MHz but you'll get a 500MHz unit limited to 200MHz without the option to purchase any furhter upgrades even if you wanted to...(I got mine in May 2012 and I've got the 500MHz probes)

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 10:38:12 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on August 24, 2017, 10:02:18 amGot it thanks !

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 10:55:24 am
content: Small update here, unlike current upgrades, when ordering a MSO/DS4012 or 4014 the customer will receive a real MSO/DS4022 or 4024.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2017, 09:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: simone.pignatti on August 24, 2017, 10:55:24 amIs this a sales promotion like Siglent run on the SDS2000X models....pay the 200 MHz price and receive the 300 MHz model ?

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 06:52:12 am
content: There is onlyonemodel, the DS4000, what you're paying for is the front panel sticker.Those not feeling comfortable with liberating the power available in the unit or those who mightstillbelieve there's a difference between a DS4000 with a 500MHz sticker on it (I suppose that's what defines it as "real") and a DS4000 with a 500MHz option code punched in might consider this a good deal. Going by the list price it's a massive ammount of money you're saving.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 06:59:07 am
content: Yes, there is a 500MHz bandwidth software unlock option in addition to just the machine claiming to be a DS4054 (not an unlock key, some other inbuilt software toggle).That said... I'm not 100% sure it makes any difference except for the time scale zoom level. I haven't actually looked for the -3dB point on the scope (maybe I should), but hooked directly into a 50 ohm line from an RF generator, the unit lost trigger stability at around 1050MHz - on my DS4024. Now the signal was significantly attenuated at that point and visually looked to have some kind of secondary amplitude modulation which was not enabled - but the front end could keep up. There is certainly not a hard dropoff in response above the stated bandwidth. There's also no difference in the measurement functions above the stated bandwidth.I think the base 500MHz probes have a pretty good bandwidth as well.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 08:16:42 am
content: Previously there was a patched firmware which changed the bandwidth AND the reported model number (which must be how Rigol turns a DS4000 into a "real" model.Then the option codes was found and reverse engineered and the special firmware no longer needed. Now, if you unlock a 100MHz DS4000 to a 500MHz it still says DS401x but has the 500MHz bandwidth option enabled - even though Rigol choose not to SELL you that particular option.Using Leo Bodnars pulser I've found the bandwidth of my DS4000 to be 725MHz (0.45/risetime), another user reports the same numbers.

author: bozidarms
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 08:56:31 am
content: QuoteBetter one cannot say!

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 09:28:35 am
content: Quote from: H.O on August 25, 2017, 06:52:12 amI the DS4014E also the same?

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 10:35:27 am
content: AFAIK it's still not determined what (if any) hardware differences there are between the E-model and the standard one.However, with the normal DS4000 all "models" have the same samplerate (4GSa/s) and the same amount of memory (140M) so there's been no "option codes" for unlocking anything to that effect. The E-model has 2GSa/s and 14M memory so even it IS the same hardware the option codes to possibly unlock it is AFAIK not known at this time and would require new efforts from the people knowing how to do that magic.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 10:47:18 am
content: Strange that no one has yet opened an E and compared.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 11:10:18 am
content: The reason is probably that noone active on this forum, privately owns a DS4000E model. Actually, at 20% price difference to the DS4014 it doesn't make any sense to buy the "E" model, considering the certain option to "improve" the DS4014 to the full DS4054 capabilities. I guess when spending this amount of money privately, there are few people who want to be guinea pigs. Moreover, in comparison to other oscilloscope manufacturer's offers, the Rigol DS4000 series doesn't appear as attractive anymore as it may have three or four years ago.Cheers,Thomas

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2017, 12:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on August 25, 2017, 11:10:18 amI don't know. Who else offers a 4 channel scope with the DS4000 performance/dual ADC's at a price anywhere close to it even now? You can run 2 channels at 4 GSa/s or all 4 channels at 2 GSa/s.

author: Steff_electronics
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 08:26:10 am
content: Hi,even if it is an old topic I would like to ask why I could have problems doing the upgarde?I have a DS4014 with decoder upgrade already done, but I am not abe to do the BW upgrade.It is using SW version 00.00.04 and HW version 1.2Thanks for any help

author: extronic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2018, 02:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: Steff_electronics on February 17, 2018, 08:26:10 amWhat exactly problem do you have?I'm about to buy MSO4014 and need to be sure if I can upgrade it or not

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2018, 03:35:37 pm
content: The latest version of the SW (and the version I have been using for the last ~year with 500MHz option) is 2.3.0.3. This is significantly newer than 0.0.4, maybe they added the option between the two versions?

author: mrbk
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2018, 04:05:16 pm
content: Hi!I upgraded my brand new mso4014 just two weeks ago.Using latest firmware.And it works beautifully.So unless they changed something in the last days you're probably fine./B

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2018, 04:06:10 pm
content: The latest S/W version for the DS4000 series is 2.3.1.1, apparently published in October, 2017.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2018, 05:31:21 pm
content: Does anyone have the latest list of fixes for that latest firmware?

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2018, 06:57:34 pm
content: I don't see 2.3.1.1 on int.rigol.com and the form on int.rigolna.com gives me a zip of 2.3.0.3 when I put in my serial number. Where did you spot it?

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 07:04:56 pm
content: Hi,if someone got time and info..i could need some help,got a MSO4024, how can i uppgrade/hack this to 500Mhz?/E

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 06:24:52 pm
content: I moved my question to :https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds4000-option-and-bandwidth-hack-251434/msg3200358/#msg3200358The thing I did not know, was that the system info screen will still say it's a MSO4024 after it's been hacked... 😆