Soldering standards on YouTube - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 02:01:22 pm
content: It can't be just me that twitches and is developing a nervous tic watching some of the soldering in repair, build or refurb videos on youtube surely?I've been sat here today watching two different channels and one is telling me, while soldeirng abominably badly, that they solder like that to prevent dry joints, the other, yeesh, we used to call it pigeon shit soldering when I was a telly tech...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 03:32:33 pm
content: Nope, not just you. It seems to me that soldering, for some reason, is a thing that everyone wants to do a tutorial on, no matter how poor their skills are — and despite the presence of some excellent tutorials already (PACE, Dave, John Gammell).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 03:48:58 pm
content: Also when you mention that their soldering skills are crap, you get treated by others as if you are telling blasphemy. I once made a comment on this forum about Louis Rossmann soldering skills after he was mentioned by another member as example to learn from. Basically I told you could learn to repair but for soldering look somewhere else. It resulted in shitfest.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 04:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 11, 2018, 02:01:22 pmDepends on what your expectations are when watching such videos and if they match the intention of the creator. Of course this is different from learning a trade, there is plenty of content not mentioned and not put on a scale to know where it would be.You could take them as one example, showing a few bits here and there, but not being a 100% art of the trade explanation. They don´t have to be that, as watching a video on youtube does not qualify you to do anything serious. It is not the same as passing an exam and knowing why this or that makes sense. An instructor might be able to judge if one might fail an exam by doing it as shown.If you care about the broader implications of such videos... i reckon only people interested in the subject will watch them, and as such are usually not your concern, as they will try to improve their skills to meet the minimum criteria a job asks for - from an educational point of view. It is the ones that are not interested at all you need to be concerned of.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 04:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on December 11, 2018, 04:14:54 pmIt spreads bad soldering habits. It does not take that much time and effort to learn soldering properly. Yet most of the people, many of them professionals with ton of experience, do completely shit soldering job.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 04:20:21 pm
content: The bad habit I see all the time is cleaning the tip before putting it back in the stand - old solder should be left on to prevent the tip oxidising.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 05:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 11, 2018, 04:18:51 pmSometimes while repairing stuff that was made according to the art of the trade and then failed? Therein lies the catch of it. Even the million-$ Research and Development, the purchasing and the production make mistakes. The mistakes look different, but are still there. It wouldn´t need repair otherwise. Ok, and then there is abuse by user...I agree, sometimes it looks ugly... in my job such work should not hit serial mass production of course, it would introduce new problems, give less predictability and as such would cause huge issues regarding the liablity. Because my requirements are half way obvious to me, it would simply be inacceptable. But anyway, i am not working in low voltage consumer electronics - their customers might be happy to have the device working again at a certain price, the rest is their liability. Shit soldering jobs that do not fail... are... still shit soldering jobs? I guess from an economic point of view they know how many customers come back. Aesthetics and functionality are two separate things anyway.Thats why expectations matter when watching such videos, how obvious are the requirements of such a job to the individual viewer? The disclaimers at the beginning of the video should be warning enough.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 05:45:26 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on December 11, 2018, 05:03:37 pmThis is not about the price. And actually doing shitty soldering job usually takes more time than doing good soldering job. And I've seen enough of bad hand soldering failing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 05:53:47 pm
content: I've seen some hideous shit going around on YouTube.I've seen some hideous shit going around in my short spell in industry a well. Straight off the wave soldering line and into the hands of a monkey to stick the rest of the parts in, burn and delaminate the board then try and toss it over to the conformal coating dudes and hope they won't notice. If it fails final test who gives a shit as long as you're down the pub at 12:00... my job to fix that shit for 3 months. In a bad week I could write my annual salary off!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 09:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 11, 2018, 03:48:58 pmFanbois see their favourite YouTube stars as superhuman role models. We even see hints of it on EEV blog, but it's not so extreme. Of course when someone bursts their bubble, fanbois get defensive, calling the person a troll, twat or whatever. The conversation goes like this.Quote from: FanboiQuote from: Mr RealityQuote from: FanboiQuote from: Mr RealityQuote from: FanboiQuote from: Mr Reality

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 09:47:07 pm
content: Sometimes it’s an personality cult problem. I actually had some shit on here from Rossman directly for criticising a repair rationale and approach. How dare I threaten his revenue stream with logic“Dude throw the MacBook in the trash and get insurance next time, not spend $300 on BLR which fucks with the bus timing with bodge wires. You will NEVER know if it’s trashing your data quietly. Your life’s photos are worth more than a new MacBook”

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 10:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 11, 2018, 03:48:58 pmwhich is old since it seems to me Louis himself jokes about his soldering skills

author: stevelup
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 10:20:26 pm
content: The bizarre US pronunciation of soldering as soddering makes my brain hurt. I mean, that L is most definitely there...You don’t hod something, you hold it. You didn’t sod something when you sold it. So why do you sodder with solder.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 10:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 11, 2018, 09:47:07 pmFWIW he quite often says his soldering skill is shit. IMO far from bad but certainly not to take example from. Tons of flux and a lot of unnecessary operations when things can be done much easier and with better result.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 10:31:17 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 11, 2018, 10:20:14 pmYep, I said that too. But it did not help.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 11:34:03 pm
content: Quote from: stevelup on December 11, 2018, 10:20:26 pmToo right matethe solder vs sodder thing has been brought up a few times at this forum,with 'Team Sodder' standing their ground no matter what grammar logic presentedfwiw I've never heard the word soldier spoken as sodier in defence speak

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 11:52:16 pm
content: It's strange how English has changed as it's spread around the world. I wonder when the l sound got dropped from solder? The Australians clearly pronounce the l but do the Canadians say it the US way?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 12:12:09 am
content: look at:https://www.google.com/search?q=solder+etymology&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safariThe wordsoldercomes to English from the French wordsoudure, with no L. As is usually the case where British and American English differ, American English tends to retain the older form.Anyhow, the people still trying to lord their supposed superiority over Americans because of this can take our silent L’s and shove them where the sun don’t shine.Or are you going to argue that L’scannotbe silent (or any other sound but L), in which case you’ll have to amend your pronunciations ofwalk,talk,colonel, etc??Quote from: stevelup on December 11, 2018, 10:20:26 pmHave you listened to British English?!? Many, many, many British dialects (like Cockney, and a few American ones, like NYC) have theL vocalizationshift, where the L becomes a vowel or semivowel. (Like “hold”->”howd”, rhyming roughly with “rowed”.)P.S. guys, don’t try to argue with me on this. I’ve vowed to take NO shit about American English from snooty Brits (or Aussies or Kiwis or anyone else who tries to condescend on this topic), because 99.999% of the time, their attacks are based purely on disdain for USA, not on any kind of linguistic accuracy. (Did I mention I studied linguistics?) I’ve had these arguments with linguistically uninformed non-Americans too many times, and I won’t stand for them.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 12:16:40 am
content: British English is totally screwed up. Even regionally.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 12:24:47 am
content: Thank you!! Perfect example of why it gets my blood boiling when anti-American armchair linguists start proclaiming (with steadfast conviction, as Electro Detective demonstrated here) that letters in English must be pronounced, when in fact English (including posh British) is chocked full of silent letters!!!

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 12:42:04 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 11, 2018, 11:52:16 pmFWIW I clearly remember Mr. Carlson's Lab on one of his Youtubes bringing up the point,and how he as a Canadian says it as soLderAs an Australian that has always said (and used a lot of) 60/40 solder with an L on the roll, if it was spelled sodder and brought to my attention by anti or non anti Australian armchair linguists,I would happily pronounce it as sodder and lose the L = hey, no problem

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 01:02:25 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 12, 2018, 12:12:09 amCount me in that other 0.001% then

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 01:30:41 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 12, 2018, 12:12:09 amInteresting. . .Yes various dialects of English miss sounds out. In some parts, Paul, pool and pull are homophones. Dropping consonants is also fairly common, so hair becomes air, butter, bu'er, people, peo'le, backwards, ba'wards etc. There's also some overcorrection going on, where people will strongly pronounce the letter t in words, where it's silent or weak in perceived pronunciation i.e. button, Britain (in PR the t is silent), little, hospital (in RP the t sounds more like a k, but much softer) etc. or say the letter h twice, so Southampton becomes South hampton, rather than South ampton.Don't get me started on language snobbery. Some Brits think they own English, when in reality no one does. It may be one of the most widely used languages, but as soon as it left old Blighty it changed and morphed on its travels so something else.I don't think destain for US English is purely due to anti-Americanism. I've heard people describe the Australian accent as stupid and not proper English and the same is often said about Manchester dialects, by those living around London. I think a lot of is people prefer to listen to their local dialect and an admiration for the Queen's English.Note, I've not studied linguistics, I just find it interesting.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 01:31:07 am
content: Try recording yourself soldering first. Then talk.(so long as the soldering in discussion is being done on camera).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 01:42:50 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 12, 2018, 01:30:41 amThank you. I’ve literally had Brits bark at me that “English is  language” and that I speak “American”, not “English”... it’s maddening, both from just how factually ignorant it is, but also just the sentiment behind it. (Note to non-linguists: if you have high mutual intelligibility in both spoken and written forms, it’s the same language, even if you do use different dialects. English absolutely meets this basic criterion, so American English and British English are simply dialects of “English”.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 01:44:12 am
content: Quote from: @rt on December 12, 2018, 01:31:07 amIt’s hard, no question. But if you can’t do it well on camera, then don’t post it. A beginner won’t know that it’s a bad example.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 01:47:22 am
content: Quote from: @rt on December 12, 2018, 01:31:07 amOne thing is when you embrace camera from both sides and solder in awkward pose. Another when you do ridiculous things which are wrong by their nature. And doing wrong is much more often than simply not getting it right on first try.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 01:56:27 am
content: What I found (with a hand iron) is you don’t get the angles you want to hold the iron because the camera is in the way.The video might not be about soldering. In my case, how to make a certain thing, so the soldering looked awkward.But I wouldn’t say that was a lesson in soldering, but how to make the thing.Quote from: wraper on December 12, 2018, 01:47:22 am

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 02:24:06 am
content: Quote from: stevelup on December 11, 2018, 10:20:26 pmFrench must really give you a headache.The L is clearly silent in the American English version of the word.https://www.dictionary.com/browse/solderLanguage evolves, different regions have different dialects, doesn't make one superior to the other. Even different regions of the UK have strikingly different accents and pronounce words differently.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 02:31:51 am
content: Holy shitballs, batman, the sodder/solder debate still rages on here like code/no code on the ham bands.Why does someone always have to whack the hornet's nest. Are they bored? Really, everyone should just let it go.As for the videos, the only videos I have watched are the Pace videos. I learned proper soldering techniques in school where you lost points for bad soldering. I will not bother to watch youtube videos on soldering. They way I hear it, they are like a train wreak. You are too horrified to turn away but you can't help but look. Can't be bothered with fanbois on anything, they just raise the noise floor.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 04:03:23 am
content: If it stopped at 'sodder' it would be bearable,but there are other variations too I hear creeping in, like Sata and Sardur (Lord Of The Universe? fast acting migraine killer?)Sorry gents, the sodder vs solder debates may rage on as they will with no truce in sight, but it does say SOLDER on the packaging not SODDER.Soddering iron and soddering tips and techniques doesn't sound quite right either.May I add further I don't care to be in that 99.999% club mentioned earlier,I get along super with all brits, yanks and cauncksthank yoll very much.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 05:32:03 am
content: I never knew there was any debate, it's a stupid thing to debate. If you pronounced every letter in every word in nearly any language you'd sound like an idiot. French in particular is chock full of silent letters and a good number of English words are of French origin. American English is different than British English, it just is. Proper pronunciation of many words differs, it's silly to whine about it. If you speak English with an American accent and you pronounce the L in "solder" you're saying it wrong, that's just a fact.

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 06:15:26 am
content: I have found a truth in my life. Not everyone can solder a electronic component. Or a copper pipe fitting, or some wires together, or weld with tig, mig, stick or even spot weld.Some cannot do ANY of it no matter how hard they try or train. Some can learn a lot of it. Some can learn it all.It is when the idiots try to say they can do something that is obviously bad, and they won't admit how bad, that scares everyone.Just look at the welds on a typical utility or boat trailer sometime. If you know what you are looking at, sometime they can scare you stiff thinking this thing is on the road. Especially if it was repaired sometime by 'It can't be that hard hold my beer" BillyBob welder.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 06:41:56 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 11, 2018, 04:20:21 pmare you sure the differential contraction of the solder bead on the soldering iron tip is not actually stripping the coating off by sheer force?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 06:45:08 am
content: I had to LOL at the number of posts it took to get to pronunciation. A variation Godwins lawFYI, from the blogger side of things, it's actually quite hard to capture your best soldering quality on camera. Buy yeah, no excuse for really poor stuff.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 06:51:50 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on December 12, 2018, 02:31:51 amthere are still things to be learned

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 06:54:46 am
content: Quote from: Housedad on December 12, 2018, 06:15:26 amah my trip to europe. I see six men standing by a fence to weld some posts (repair)Welding mask on floor, three men by a bottle of vodka , 2 very close to welder and welder looking at the bottle (not at his work) with welding mask on the ground and him kinda doing some kind of hypnotic poking of the fence with a mig. It looked like his wife made him finger her while he was trying to watch foot ball or something. It was literary the most horrible work performance I ever saw from a individual.they were working about 20 minutes to total darkness, basically in the dark as well. No paint or rust cleaned and they were still at the same bracket after I finished something like a 20 minute walk (should take 15 seconds). I almost thought it was one of those old neon signs with a cow boy lifting his hat in a infinite loop, but instead with men drinking and someone poking a bracket with a mig welder. Yes he was still sparking in the same place, illuminating the group with little bursts of light.I thought perhaps the men are getting a tan or trying to fool a home owner across the street with welding light.They did use lincoln electric though IIRC

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 07:07:31 am
content: Quote from: Housedad on December 12, 2018, 06:15:26 amThis is something I've really never understood either. I can solder very well, it's something I can rightfully claim to be an expert at. I started soldering when I was about 8 years old and it didn't take me too long to be able to do a passable job even with the crappy firestick I had at the time. I can MIG and TIG weld reasonably well, not expert by any means but I can stick something together that I'm not embarrassed to show off. Welding has taken a LOT more practice and I can't fault someone for not being able to weld well, there are a lot of variables and it takes a very steady hand. Soldering though, you touch the iron, wait a moment, feed in a bit of solder, wait a moment, lift the iron away and you're done. It seems like anyone who can hold their hands halfway steady should be able to get the hang of it within an hour or two.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 09:56:12 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 12, 2018, 06:54:46 amThis is one of the advantages of MIG though, you can get a rough as guts but seviceable weld with minimal preparation of the surfaces, sure it's not great and cleaning the workpiece gives you far better results but MIG is agricultural engineering level, simple and serviceable.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 10:15:56 am
content: Since we have drifted slightly off topique...I'm a noob at welding, got interested in it a few months ago after having some inverter and transformer welders and associated VERY suspect cablingdumped on the bench (and floor) for repairs,safety checks and performance testing, and had to get up to speed with the trade, techniques and consumables very quickly.Big thanks to Youtubers WELD.com, weldingtipsandtricks.com, WeldTube, Eastwood, ChuckE2009 and many many others that know their stuffWhilst I am a very persistent 'hobby' welder now, there is no way I would attempt structural stuff like trailers, bridges, ship hulls, aircraft landing gear etctill I'm actually good at it and able to test and verify my welds to specI get shocked when I see DIY trailer welding that's been done by beer swilling neanderthals,how do they get a roadworthy cert for such slag infested, porous, spray painted bird sh!t beads ?Welding 'properly' and signing off on it is a LOT more difficult to master than soldering at any level.This is MY humble observation thus far YMMV...TIG, Stick and MIG is a different ball game folks, soldering is childs play after having a fair go at welding.BTW: There's is no simple 'oops' in welding, most stuffups mean burns, arc flash/flying particle eye injury, shop FIRES, breaker trips, magic smoke...and a lot of yakka to start over and re-work a bad welding bead/joint.BIG RESPECT from me out to good welders !BTW: all the US based Youtubers I've had the good fortune to watch, from Canada through to the USA/Texas/Mexico pronounce it 'weLding'AFAICT they are fusing metals together, not getting married,am I correct?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 11:50:08 am
content: I am 3 until I am angry at which point I turn into 1

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 02:17:35 pm
content: Talking to an American some time back he said that their schools tried to standardize English pronunciation, and the general idea was that all letters should be sounded. Which is fine in principle until you encounter a word like 'buoy' which commonsense says is the same as 'boy' but which some Americans really struggle to turn into 'beuuiieuy' or something.Recall seeing a Canadian lecturing in the USA do this once and then go back to a sensible pronunciation.Though it's certainly not just English that has pronunciation woes. How do you pronounce "L'Occitane" for example?Actually 'Lox-e-tan' which seems like nothing you'd find in French. But, this is Southern French, not Parisian.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 05:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 12, 2018, 11:47:51 amHe's very talented. He should study languages.His natural accent is interesting. He's clearly from an area with a high immigration as, although he's a native English speaker, there are hints of foreign accents in his normal speech.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 06:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 12, 2018, 10:15:56 amwell to be fair I have seen complete garbage be pretty strong but what I recommend is getting a sledge hammer, making a weld on something you actually want to weld with sacrificial metal with all the same lever lengths of torque and giving it a test till you are winded.I was kinda freaking out about my braze strengths but I decided the strength was reasonable for the loads I was expecting. ChuckE has videos on how to do a test but its not the same as getting a few extra bars and making a duplicate partial piece of something like a welding table and giving it a one over with a heavy sledge hammer and being generally mean to it (throw it at some rocks, bash it on some trees) just be careful of springs and wear goggles and a helmet when you do it. I found it was pretty difficult to destroy and I had to be creative to actually break something structural.Now the experts can get away with using less metal and making it lighter then someone that does not do it 100% right but they are plenty usable. But I also 100% recommend trashing something of similar quality to what you are making so you understand how it goes wrong and what it looks like and what it does... you will get a better idea doing demolition like this then any youtube video can show you.It kinda puts it in prospective. For instance I was not sure what quality I was getting with an aluminum weld (I was making long brackets like an angle iron). It looked kinda bad (it was oxygen/hydrogen tanks not HHO and it looks kinda scuzzy) so what I decided to do is get a anvil, flatten it out with a hammer, then put it in a vise, bend it back into the correct shape but inverted (so the weld turned inside out) with a heavy hammer, then flatten it again, then bend it again.Doing this made me realize the weld, while not pretty or ideal, can take a shit load of abuse (I managed to do it a few times until I was really tired and it was kinda fucked up and tearing in some places and I kinda thought that if it gets THIS bad I will probobly notice (it was still strong but looked like it came out of a meat grinder).A few hours of metal torture will give you more confidence in the work but still follow good work practices related to hydrogen embrittlement etc. IMO structural stuff is actually easier to do then something like a pressure vessel. The idea of pipe welding just makes me paranoid. Pipe brazing with high silver seems OK so long you do all the prep work right because it kind of takes care of itself and you can check if it flowed.. but something like tig welding stainless high pressure pipe would give me the heebie jeebies unless I had someone verify it with x-rays and shit.Also what will make you feel better is wailing on the joint with a chizzle or some kind of puncturing high force tool (pick axe maybe, but keep in mind its not going to like it too much). You learn something physically destroying metal and 'breaking into things', not sure what it is but its something..Spending a day doing this will quell some non sense that builds up in your head from reading too much about it.. my idea of what temper is was not very close to reality for instance, neither was fracture, as I proved to myself with a bit of labor.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 06:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2018, 09:56:12 amand when BillyBob welder fires up his underpowered Ebay special MIG he might think the result looks ok but it is barely held together

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 07:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 12, 2018, 05:55:57 pmHe got some of them absolutely nailed. The American dialects sounded 100% authentic to me, the Russian and Indian accents sounded exactly like some people from those countries I work with. Overall surprisingly entertaining, I don't think I could emulate most of those accents if my life depended on it.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 10:28:41 pm
content: Sod the soddering. Why do many people pronounce "idea" as "i-dear" or "i-dee-ar"? I heard Dave and Big Clive saying it like that. What's the "IDR" behind the "r" at the end? Not judging or criticizing - just genuinely interested.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 10:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 12, 2018, 06:09:24 pmSame deal here, but please allow me to share my humble story about weld integrity going south...I've had the A frame of a professionally made box trailer snap at the body weld join, going over a slight road hump whilst going downhill in the main city at peak hour, quite the adventure!A scene Hollywood could use in the next Avengers or Justice League installmentSafety chains won't bail you out of that worst case towing scenario, because they are joined to the A frame and tow vehicle, with the fully loaded runaway box about to partake in free flight...Luckily the bottom welds(TOTAL RECALL CORRECTION: the bottom of the unwelded square tube)just barely held enough for me to drag the fully loaded trailer (upturned 75 degrees and scraping ground!) slowly down the hill to level ground and into a side street,where I managed to level it up by jumping on the top front whilst jacking up the rear, empty the contents and jerry rig secure with rope,well enough to get the sucker to a local trailer fabricator who pointed out the obvious weld error that should not have been done that wayHe re-welded it at the snapped join for aesthetics and welded on a matching extra tube bar under the A frame to the mid section of the box,in a way that offered maximum support and no weld area to flex or snap,and it looked cool and original once spray painted over, with that 'never happened' vibeNeedless to say, any trailer or tow rig I get in the future, no matter how well built, will be getting that mod done to it,and chains strung inside the tubing from mid box to mid A frame,just in case too many zombies hop on top during the next Z apocalypsei.e. if a trailer snaps at the A frame it's SOL City, someone will be hurt, dead, bankrupt,most likely all three !That was a lucky day for me when I think back about how it could have been a lot worse, had I been driving uphill or going 100kph on a busy freeway.fwiw: the trailer load was balanced perfectly with a slight bias toward the tow vehicle, but how can you forecast a disaster like that?on top of that the weakened weld points had a nice even coat of paint so even a concerned owner's regular inspection is a waste of time and investment in false securitySo yeah, whether it's a good looking bead with obvious penetration burns, or stringed along bird droppings that have 'held solid for years',all structural welds should be checked and rechecked for flaws and wear and tear stress.Same deal with soldering, I've sorted out a lot of 'good looking' and 'shiny' joints that were actually dry, cracked, or just sitting pretty on an oily track and or component leg, on cheap and expensive gearto know better and always assume nothing.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 10:49:57 pm
content: well a solder joint is hard to measure and stuff because its small. You can't set it up right easily (for instance look at braze joint strength vs spacing, it peaks around 0.004 inches filler gap.What percent of nominal failure force at that application did the weld fail at? Like weld size in reference to its say, 75% of nominal for quality amateur work, derated of course, tensile strength. ?

author: grbk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 10:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: Zbig on December 12, 2018, 10:28:41 pmThis is called the "intrusive R"

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 11:35:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on December 12, 2018, 10:49:57 pmTwo top side 50mm wide horizontal beads, right where the A frame joins the box (a big no-no!),total failure on both at mid joint and toes,with perfect crack-age on the paint too,so with the trailer levelled back up again, you could not tell there was any cracks, till rocked a bit.Talk about bad news, the weld failure caused the left and right sides of the solid square tube to sheer,but luckily for me the bottom of the square tubing held on and flexed with the entire trauma.I wouldn't wish this on anyone... I think

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 11:39:57 pm
content: I am not sure what exactly that means. I was interested in finding out what the overlap area or weld area is (in square units) so it can be calculated how much would actually need to be required to work in that joint, theoretically, then the percent strenght of your weld vs theoretical.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 11:54:40 pm
content: Unfortunately I can't assist there, it was a few years back and I was clueless about welding back then.The chap that repaired it stated the weld beads were properly done but in a high flex spot,he grinded down and reworked them with stick rod so they looked the same,even though they no longer had to play a major support role.The scary thing is I see a few new trailers and caravans getting around with the same handywork, and they are not DIYOne can only imagine how bad the DIY MIG-ified ones are, hopefully only used on farm land till they expire due to rust or flood...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 11:57:09 pm
content: i think if you make it thick enough its OK no matter where it is. Keep in mind regular metal will eventually crack too with enough bends. If you make it real thick it wont flex much and even a weld in a bend point is OK but obviously it might look ridiculous etc.I think its basically amplitude vs time ratio to crack ratio is worse in welds, but if thicker you can match it to a 'perfect' bit of metal so long its not pourous etc.I don't know where it stands when its properly thermally softened and rehardened .

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 09:49:18 am
content: Thick enough (and ugly) works as long as the heat goes in deep in a few spots and the sides get a good cooking.If running a gas MIG indoors it's do-able. With stick and gasless MIG it may get tricky.How well 'thick enough' holds out in a few years time is anyones guess or gambleWelding is pretty complicated (to get 100% right) compared to the usual soldering routine (clean, flux, solder, clean, inspect, done)Once you zap metal and filler metal with an arc it will expand and not contract back where you want it, and parts of the metal grain structure may weaken or distort etc even if the bead/joint looks good.A solder joint you can blow on to cool it off faster and move on to the next one.Not so with welding, you have to watch the work subject temperature on a larger project, otherwise amperage settings go out the window if the work piece gets too hot.As you stated earlier, the only way to verify weld integrity is to trash a sample and see what the real deal is.Hey, who says it can't be fun too...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 11:31:55 am
content: Most of the times I've seen welded joints fail they've failed at the side of the weld, I.E. the original metal tears, the weld is usually intact with a piece of the structure attached to it. That would indicate to me the design was placing undue stress on the frame and/or the welding process has somehow softened the material it was intended to 'join'

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 03:51:11 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 12, 2018, 04:03:23 amThe words “could” and “would” also contain silent L’s, in every dialect of English. Do you still think spelling must 100% correspond to pronunciation?I realize that in the UK, the curse verb “sod” exists, which is why the “soddering” pronunciation sounds so funny to you. But this fact simply does not make the American pronunciation wrong!

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 03:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 12, 2018, 10:15:56 amHere is the thing in Florida. You can build a trailer in your garage, take it to a weigh station, get your slip and then go get it registered and receive a plate for it. That's it. It may be different in other states. Not every state has vehicle inspection either. Florida doesn't. Here is a quick synopsis:Q: Why did Florida do away with annual vehicle inspections?A: In 1981, then-Gov. Bob Graham and the Legislature halted motor vehicle inspections after complaints about long lines at state-run inspection stations.Graham was quoted at the time as saying the nearly $20 million spent annually by the state to run the stations could be better spent on law enforcement. The idea was that the job of inspections would fall to officers on patrol that could stop cars on the road if they saw faulty equipment.Additionally:As a side note, back in the 1990s, Florida required emissions testing in major metro areas like Miami, Tampa and Jacksonville.Governor Jeb Bush did away with the program for two reasons: the $50 million cost and because Florida met federal standards for air quality.I do maintain my own brakes, tires, lights and windshield wipers. Not everyone does.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 04:40:32 pm
content: We have an inspection here when licensing a new trailer but you don't have to keep getting it inspected. We have emissions testing for cars more than 3 and less than 25 years old, thankfully mine are old enough to be exempt. I remember going through the tests years ago and wondering if the pollution of all those cars idling in line and driving on the dyno all day long was offset by fixing the few cars that failed the test. The worst failures often got away anyway because after spending a certain amount having the car repaired you could get an exemption if it still failed. I think the emissions testing made a lot more sense back when cars were a lot dirtier and required regular tuneups. Modern cars don't have to be adjusted and will warn you if there's a fault that affects emissions.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 01:06:19 am
content: Quote from: CJay on December 13, 2018, 11:31:55 amClearly what happened to my rig, bought it new and professionally made, the company made loads of them, fuel station hires etc, common bog standard model, built for work.Did a lot of haulage and mileage with no issues for a few years, then the two welds joining the A frame to the box failed big time,and basically would have been screwed and on the TV and Newspapers if it separated totallyThe 6x4 fully enclosed box trailer was well looked after btw, no rust and fitted with steel rims balanced light truck tyres, bearings and springs checked etcyou would not know you were towing it on a flat road.Anyways, it won't fail at that point again...Take the time for a good looksee on your trailer and caravan weld work folks,check for rust, paint cracks, DIY bird dung welds looking suss etcPut a bit of force on the stress points, better they crack, break or reveal themselves in the driveway than on a highwayMy experience is a drama you don't need

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 01:51:56 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 13, 2018, 09:49:18 amIts a bit strange because the people that I do see stuff never bother calculations and do a deload estimate.For brazing I estimate my contact areas and distances and get a force estimate as to what is happening in that location. Same for epoxy. Then I subtract ALOT because of unforseen factors, low quality materials and shoddy work practices.For anneling I will cite something interesting I saw: they measured rebars tensile strength after getting it to red heat for bending and other processes. I thought holy hell its gonna be butter. The measurements showed like a 3-5% loss in strength only.I feel a little crazy unless I can do some basic math to figure out whats going on. I wonder how much time it would take to simulate that trailer as a extreme basic example accurate to like 30% in solidworks or something to see .For structural stuff I kind of imagine what a bolts and brackets replacement solution would look like, if you can convert the two in your head it might be a good learning tool.I am curious what a good primer on proper weld design would be before trying to watch 40 hours of indian technical institute videos;the only cool thing thats unique and interesting about doing welding engineering online, is that when they solve a problem, you can actually go to the garage and weld it up like pretty quickly so long you have basic materials available and test the math out. The stocking requirements for doing your own lab I think will be MUCH MUCH less then say trying to do the same for electronics, but usually if you have that much with electronics your a engineer or equivalent independent. I may try. ITT is actually really good but you need to adapt to the accents.https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbMVogVj5nJSjLB85-HKhw1aCIBxn3pWj

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 06:08:49 am
content: I was not aware of that Youtube channelhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbMVogVj5nJSjLB85-HKhw1aCIBxn3pWj"40 hours of indian technical institute videos" may save one countless hours of weld frustrationThe gent's accent is ok, a lot better than some others on Youtubemumbling and sporting flip flops, cheaper than cheapest tools, exposed HV wiring and unfed petstry slowing down the sound slightly, should help, or kick in the Subtitles which aren't too bad.After having watched many USA based videos already, it's a given I will never be a real welder,it takes a lot of commitment and time to study and learn the craft PROPERLY,as well as hit the books on Metallurgy, AC and DC electricals, maintaining and servicing the equipment, choosing consumables to be compatible with the work materials, gases and regulators,strength and failure testing, X-Ray analysis etcbasic blowtorch and blacksmith skills, and let's not forget the most important > eye protection and big time PPEI'm talking about gaining a skillset come expertise level where one gets good money for welding, does it easier and signs off on it with confidence, and no comebacks.That's how I roll with my humble activities, and sleep better at night.As a hobby come DIY repairs with ability to knock up some metal bracket or gadget from scrap metal, that's where I am.I may be way better clued than the average DIY or tradie that buys a shiny rig from a big box store, gets frustrated, upgrades, then sells off the lot dirt cheapperhaps to someone like meThe welding turf is best suited for an apprentice who likes to assemble metal and burn rods, and can soak in a lot of information, so that in 10 years time they can make serious money,assuming automation robots by then don't push the skilled and learned apprentices into hospitality jobsserving booze topless to frustrated women, married to 'busy'? husbands that own the automated factories...Anyway, soldering/soddering/sardurrring has always been the go for me, and the entire rig fits/crams in a fruit box if I need it packed to take to a job,...to sort out a welder's dropped TIG/Stick inverter

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 10:59:43 pm
content: QuoteIt's a trade/industry. There are a few hoops to jump thru, tuition and respect/dues to be paid, ladders to climb. Just like any other source of income which doesn't really require much special talent.Yeah, it's harder than soldering. If you want to tackle something truly difficult, try sewing.The trailer thing wasn't a welding thing. It is a structural engineering conundrum. And the guy knew a good way to fix it because he was an experienced "trailer fabricator." Not because he had mystic knowledge of welding, lol.As for OP, I think this applies to most skills on Youtube. It's a matter of monkey see, monkey do. In the old days, if you wanted to share knowledge, you wrote a book. Today, you can record something and upload it the same day. There are a few people who make a good living doing this, and there are a heck of a lot of other people trying! It's not a matter soldering standards. The only standard that matters is views.I remember watching a wranglestar video a few years ago. He was demonstrating a skill. I can't even remember what it was. Let's just say he was building something relatively small but useful. Let's call it a widget. He was dropping all kinds of knowledge bombs on why this was the best way to build the widget. Then 10 minutes into the video, he drops the little nugget that this was actually the first time he was building a widget, but he was an expert because he watched all the other Youtube vids and used Google search.If this makes him an idiot, I'll gladly be an idiot for several hundred thousand $ a year.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 11:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on December 14, 2018, 10:59:43 pmwhat are you talking about, he means the physical action of being able to perform a weld to the theoretical limits of what is possible and possibly to be able to evaluate where a joint should be made, like you might want to consult a welder after you draw a schematic in case he sees something wrong based on experience, including ease of construction (it might be much cheaper, faster, or the process might be more reliable if its done in a particular way that depends on the equipment available). I see it a welder as a kind of field engineer / technican combo.. thats what you get with guys doing their own work out of a company. If you get to a bigger company where you can put several people on a single project then you might have people that just do the fusing process and other people that do the thinking and process development steps.. but in terms of learning it by yourself its a combo of engineering/technician/production of the welding field.Say you need to cut metal quick in the field and the welding company or tradesperson has some specific jigs that work fast and are available, he should tell the engineer that this is available and if its OK that his stuff is used rather then following the design to the T which might call for expensive tooling being purchased for a one time job that is not really necessary.Because really you can't predict how the welder will do the steps like clamping, cleaning, cutting, beveling, measurement accuracy etc unless you really design the crap out of what you are making, which is possible, but this makes you a weld engineer. Otherwise you are trusting the welder to do that part for you. Same with machine shop stuff, you can give them something to work with or you can try to micromanage it.. unless you really really know their workflow you might end up paying heavily for stuff you don't need (like if you specify a surface finish to something rather then just leaving it as the 'default' of what the shop thinks is reasonable).Then you get something like a 'good shop':stuff is reasonably deburred, they take some cosmetic steps that end up improving performance and making it usable (i.e. removing big rust patches)but if you start specifying tons of shit, you might end up with 3 hours more labor on your part because you said the corners need to be mitered wheras normally the machinist might just run it over with a file real quick and you get a decent free and proud solution that does not really effect their work flow or machines. If you do alot of business the dynamic changes but thats where the whole 'good craftman' thing can play to your advantage as a manufacturer or designer. And this has a side benefit of freeing up their management and your engineering since you don't have a bunch of communications to establish a whole bunch of stuff that kinda comes out decent based on trade expectations that are loose. Then you can do more R&D and other fun stuff and they don't get hassled and everyones stress level is lower.If everyone starts being super anal about everything and counting ever step and every finger they lift, it might seem like you are getting more money but eventually you end up with a ton of 'modem people' that just communicate stuff between companies because everyone is doing the least amount of work humanely possible. Then you are just paying for modems. And its unpleasant as fuck to work with that where you end up getting hit with ridiculous bullshit all the time.Like if you buy things that come shipped covered dripping with dirty oil or have literary razor sharp edges or just unfinished stuff that you think a reasonably intelligent decent human would do before sales you realize that people who 'just know how to do it' are important.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 08:57:45 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on December 14, 2018, 10:59:43 pmI've watched a few of those, and others as well that pop up on the links right side of the browser (Essential Craftsman, Buckin Billy Ray Smithetc),they are pretty good 'Christian orientated' Homestead lifestyle videos, TBH my crusty tools and skills have improved watching these gentsYou can sense competition amongst them and mild b!tchin,they should chill and thank Youtube for the lack of cash they were sorta expecting.You won't see too many useful welding videos from these tubers, maybe some 'good enough' Lincoln Tombstone repairs,and advice for battling farmers etc that need to fix metal tools, gates, frames and machinery on their usual sub zero budgetTheir soddering skill needs serious WORKmaybe a few PACE and EEVblog videos to understand what the go isThat said, I'd rather buddy up with wysiwyg Homesteaders that I find are generally low on BS and not scared of work,and lose the urban thing if the choice had to be made,or time for a sea change ( aka no decent money to be made in the big smoke,and too many eyesores)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 09:05:10 am
content: i dunno man I spent some time with farmers and their kinda aggressive and mean to be honest, its not what you think so much. They are extremely frugal with every thing to the point where its annoying to talk to them (almost everything seems to turn into a financial discussion) but on the other hand they do like making stuff.. but I noticed alot are often really pissed off.The older ones seem to be in worse physical condition then city folk often for some reason, I think stress.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2018, 11:04:17 pm
content: Different countries have different farmer shafting levels imposed on themfrom the mansion housed crooks controlling the money supply and tradeThe rural people here do it tough, but haven't been run into the ground yet afaict