Company loads malware into their product to stop you using it! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 10:59:28 pm
content: I was lazy surfin on some HIFI forums and noticed a company called Sonos Inc have in one of the prior software updates of their products in secret implemented code that shuts down and disables your product from working in an atempt to make you buy their new things. Now isn't this illegal in your country?They are trying to construct an argument based on their products have old lithium batteries.Quotehttps://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/save-the-cr100-6800510/Which reminds me of another story about John Deere Tractors who refused to start unless Ukrainian farmer/ownerspaid for an system update , instead they rented hackers to bypass the US malware/extortion practices , soon to follow was US farmers.The origin i recall was that Deere blocked huge number of Ukrainian farmers in 2016 just when they where about to harvest the yearly crop.https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 11:03:51 pm
content: This is all a very disturbing trend.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 12:52:38 am
content: Reply to them with something like this.QuoteSay stuff like this enough, maybe it will cause a company-wide investigestion for posession of malware. That would be hilarious! It would be even funnier if it actually happened!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 01:11:19 am
content: The problem is that it's trivial to construct a product in such a way that it's totally dependent on the manufacturer. Only when laws start demanding these devices to be maintained by the manufacturer a couple of years, the risk reward might start shifted towards not doing it like that. Until then, harvesting data and having full control over your customers is way too appealing. Meanwhile, there's more and more stories of products simply becoming expensive paperweights because the manufacturer pulled a server, sometimes mere months after the product release.It's becoming harder and harder to even buy a television without it being smart. And it's not as if the firmware of these devices is reliable and mature. I just saw an $8000 screen get stuck in a boot loop the other day and that wasn't the first time that happened. That's far from a rare story.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 01:15:20 am
content: I have never used any product from that company and with that move, I probably never will.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 01:21:49 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 10, 2018, 01:15:20 amA lot of big brands have done similar things by now. It's becoming hard to avoid.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 01:33:05 am
content: Time for someone to get hacking

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 02:37:50 am
content: Glad I sold all my zone players last year. Batteries are easy enough to replace in the CR100s, but not intended to be user replaceable. These controllers were much better than the app. It really blows my mind when companies do this kind of thing. It's such an admission that they're products are not built to last. Sonos trying to frame this as being done for some safety concern is basically them saying that they sold you some dangerous garbage from the start.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 03:00:52 am
content: A friend of a friend had to put a time bomb in his software once (for a good reason) and thank goodness he did it. All ended well and he doesn't regret it, it was the right thing to do.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 03:11:54 am
content: Norton Antivirus comes close to meeting the definition of malware.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 06:09:06 am
content: QuoteComplete and utter bullshit. All that happens with old batteries is a gradual loss of capacity... and eventually you replace them.I think it's all the more reason to buy products with easily replaceable batteries from the start.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 10, 2018, 01:33:05 amMIKE: Just Undo It!

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 06:19:37 am
content: This is why I am completely skeptical and untrusting of all-in-one solutions like this. The closest thing to a Sonos I use is a Chromecast, and I would actually love it it was straight up wireless HDMI with wide device support. Instead it's a lightweight media consumption device that will one day stop working when whatever services that it relies on are discontinued or somehow changed.For me, if I were to set up a digital home music system, I would take one of two approached. Low price, or high quality. If I went with the former, I would buy a Pi 3, load it up with all the music I listen to (which are all files anyways) and if I wanted to get fancy add a few buttons and a display, and then just have all the audio play through SDL2.If I wanted to put a bit more care into it, I would wire it up to my HTPC with an external DAC. WinAmp, drag it all over an SMB share, and done.I can understand the want for a cheap and easy all in one solution, but my philosophy, even as a lazy man, is put the easiest, LCD to work, and it will probably work for years to come. Heck, if I were to set up a true home hi-fi system, I would be interested in making it a physical media system, using a variety of dedicated hardware to play music. The reality of it, is that I don't much listen to music besides sitting on a YouTube playlist and some headphones while working or whatever.I can get as frustrated as everybody else here even though I don't own a Sonos. Needlessly bricking a device with the paper thin INSULT of an excuse that the BATTERIES are too old (you know, like Apple) is unacceptable, and I believe is, and if not should be completely illegal. The weak comment that you can just "not upgrade" is of little comfort to anybody.I just want to say this. In the same way that early computing required people to put a level of satisfactory work into getting things done, I believe people can derive enjoyment of setting things up themselves, and not have it take too much time. After all, something done right once, will be done right forever. I'm aware people don't have time to blow on some of this stuff, but I can throw together a RasPi to do this in around two hours flat, probably around 30 minutes if I used my HTPC. This is my opinion, one that I hope some people share, but I can understand if some people don't.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 07:40:02 am
content: I know stuff like this sucks, but to play devils advocate, from what I can gather, the CR100 is about13 years old.That's an eternity in the connected product tech world.How long do people expect them to keep making updates for it?When did they actually discontinue sale of it?

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 07:42:47 am
content: From what I can gather, they aren't dropping support, so much as they are making the devices unusable.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:10:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 10, 2018, 01:21:49 amCount them up by name and product please?Devils advocate dont tell his clients they are (video):QuoteJohn Deere that-s the real dicks, putting a whole country on its brink to starvation!....again!

author: Falkra
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:14:49 pm
content: More ideas here :

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:20:13 pm
content: Yeeeeeeeeees and self driving cars with half arsing autopilots is going to need ""how many firmware updates"" did you say?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:29:42 pm
content: I personally avoid anything that requires the internet to work... other than things that are actually to do with the Internet, if you know what I mean.Buying a Wifi lightbulb that has it's control application on a website... Nope. No thanks.The whole IoT is full of devices hooked up to dodgy cheap or free websites which I would give 2-3 years at best before they get shut down, change the APIs or start charging money. Bricking millions of gadgets.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:33:23 pm
content: Quote from: MT on February 10, 2018, 05:10:47 pmYou only need to do some cursory searching to start finding loads of them.Sonos CR100Logitech Harmony LinkJuicero PressNest RevolvVarious big brand smart TVsIt's happening everywhere. Someone pulls the server and your device is a brick. If you're lucky, it'll keep functioning with severely reduced functionality. Of course, there's always the distinct possibility of someone else hijacking your devices and recruiting it for their botnet, because the S in IoT stands for security.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:39:25 pm
content: Happen with my smart TV. Youtube app popped up a box to say they were withdrawing support at the end of the month. Bang, no YouTube app.Smart TVs are a bit useless anyway. The software on them has a life expectancy similar to a mobile phone. In that the software gets bigger, fatter, slower as the new models of TV get bigger and faster, but I don't know about you but I would expect to keep a TV for 10+ years, where as I can accept swapping my mobile every 2 or 3 years when it grinds to halt and runs out of memory.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:43:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 10, 2018, 05:33:23 pmA juice blender? Seriously? It needs a firmware update?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:52:37 pm
content: Quote from: MT on February 10, 2018, 05:43:04 pmIt wasn't a blender, but a press. But it's even worse than you imagine. You needed an internet connection for it to work at all. No internet meant no juice. Of course the company went tits up, so people have $700 paper weights now. Apparently there was a promise of refunds, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 05:53:26 pm
content: That was dicussed extensively here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/silicon-valley-invests-$120-mill-in-$400-juicer-that-works-as-well-as-hands/

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 06:00:37 pm
content: If we're bringing IOT scam products like Juicero into this, we can't forget Sony's auto-dying robot dog.(someone find that thread)

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 06:30:47 pm
content: This one?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sony's-newest-robo-dog-comes-with-a-mandatory-monthly-fee/

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 07:33:00 pm
content: Somehow I fail to see end-of-life battery issues on the Sonos product though a malware lens. Sure, there are stupid companies doing stupid things and they get raked over the coals for it. Their reputation suffers (example is this thread). Let's not over reach on this and just call it for what it is - bad product design, product management and customer support. Ham-handed is probably an appropriate term here.And by the way, I have a CR100 in a box somewhere. The system that it went to was incredible for the time. But times have passed it by. And that CR100 as a remote control - it is a monster compared to what is available now. I'd rather use a smart phone or tablet. My CR100's battery gave up a long time ago and I lambasted the company over their replacement plan (none). To be fair, it lasted about 4 cell phone generations. I don't know how many years that is in dog's lives but in tech that's pretty long.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 07:35:13 pm
content: Smart TVs.If it was so friggin smart, it wouldn't take 20 seconds to turn on.If you want to be smart about a TV, have it turn on the moment I hit the button, not take 20 seconds to load up your useless Linux kernel I'm not going to use anyways, and that I don't even want on there for security reasons.IoT started off as people who generally knew what they were doing making neat gadgets. It's now exploded into a bullshit array of companies trying to make the future today with shit that's just a security hole waiting to be exploited. IoT should remain where it started off, and no further. The sad part is no matter how many times I say this, or how many times anybody says this, it's just pissing in the wind.I want a TV that is actually just a dumb monitor, and devices that don't get bricked by software updates.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 07:56:28 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on February 10, 2018, 07:35:13 pmThis. It's like all-in-one PCs. Lets put a display on the same obsolescence curve as a CPU. Doesn't pass the sniff test.I have a Samsung smart TV that has a number of internet features built in. Straight out of the box, none of them were as good as the current version on something else (like android or a PC) and they really didn't get upgraded anyway. Mostly just a collection of orphans. But honestly, I didn't buy the TV for it's smarts, I bought it because it had the best price for a TV that supported HDMI-CEC in the size I wanted. So, smart was a "bonus" that I never used and never felt ripped off over. And while we are at it, the UI on that Samsung TV. Well, let's just say they didn't put the A team on it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 08:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on February 10, 2018, 07:56:28 pmThe downside of buying smart devices when you don't intend to use the smart part is that you're typically still forced to agree with the terms and conditions and all sorts of data sharing. By virtue of how things are designed, it's barely possible to opt out, if at all.Not to mention the Samsung smart TVs that turned out to be listening all the time, despite having to hit a microphone button if you wanted to use voice recognition yourself. They beamed all your information back to the mothership. There are now so many stories like these that if you only stick to commonly accepted stories you still sound like a total nutcase. Yet the stories are true, independently confirmed by main stream news outlets. Even when you stick the what can be regarded as well documented and uncontested stories, you still end up sounding like some doomsday adventist. Yet it still doesn't seem to be enough.Apparently we need to hurt ourselves badly before we will finally take action, and I fear it will be a very painful way back once we do.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 09:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on February 10, 2018, 07:33:00 pmAgain, apples and oranges. We're not talking about natural failure due to unreliable design and then failing to support it. This has nothing to do with actual battery failure at all! We're talking about DELIBERATE destruction of the software on otherwise fully functional devices!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 09:23:44 pm
content: QuoteThere should be public list of all these scam products, and soon to be scam products.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 09:26:31 pm
content: If you don't need to access the Internet from the Smart TV to use say iPlayer or Netflix you can always firewall it. See if it still works though.Sky for example have for years demanded you connect their boxes to the phone line. First thing I did when the engineer left was disconnect it.I use iPlayer and Netflix, but the laptop is much faster. The YouTube app was diabolically slow anyway.If it had a more open OS and you could get custom apps like an X11 client or VNC it might become useful. DLNA just doesn't cut it. And F Google for closing and open protocol with the Chrome Cast. It's just DLNA hacked to so google apps only work with the google version. Chrome won't cast to my DLNA TV, why not? YouTube used to but it uses a youtube URL opened with the YouTube app which no longer works.My dream digital/wifi media set up is true centralisation and interconnection. The ability to send the program/app/desktop/movie/dvd you are viewing to a different screen in the house or to your phone or tablet.... or pull a remote screen to your current device. Same with audio... which sort of already exists.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 10:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on February 10, 2018, 07:35:13 pmIoT is a broad term that is useful in some applications, like monitoringbigbuildings for smarter energy management, or perhaps indicating live parking lot usage on digital signs.But pushing IoT towards households makes no sense to me. What automation does one need extra in the household? Or rather, do we need to complicate the household even more?Last week I read an article about a machine that can fold you clothes, for just 800$ if I recall. Great stuff, I spend a whopping 20 minutes a week folding and hanging my clothes. What a huge time saver! Not only that; it's not like you could grab the pile of clothes out your dryer and drop it into this machine. You had to do it 1 by 1, in a rather neat way for the machine to work. So, I doubt you would be saving any time at all.In the end, one could look up how to fold a T-shirt in 5 seconds, and learn how to do it on the spot, and then fold and store a week worths of T-shirts in 2 minutes.Shit like this gives a particular bad name to IoT, even though large-scale industry applications can be of use..Smart devices in particular, like SmartTV's, are often mediocre implemented. Features sell, user experience can be sold at a premium price, and electronic security is invisible to consumers so why bother.I've a Samsung SmartTV, but the number of bugs on this device that are directly related to the "Smart" interface, is unbelievable. I would almost wonder if I can make a guarantee claim for "broken" software.Even though I like electronics, software and automation faciliting making our lives easier, the poor applications and implementations has made me starting to hate and be sceptical about any new 'invention'. I would rather have a minimalist household, de-complicate things.This Sonos is a classic example of that. Why don't they just sell replacement batteries? Did they already design a non-replacable battery product 13 years ago? Good job - they out-revolutionized Apple /s. Or does Sonos not want to bother with the "legacy business" 13 years after the product was launched? After all.. if those old customers had no intention of buying a new product from you, you can't actually "lose" them as potential customers right?

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 11:17:55 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 10, 2018, 09:19:29 pmSo they are evil plotters. Scheming how to ruin a perfectly good experience for the customers? Why not just insert a trojan horse that wipes the entire system? Why settle for garden variety malware and not go for the full monty? sheesh.Don't get me wrong, I wish they would provide replacement batteries for my CR100. But I'm not surprised they don't. I would bet that they know exactly how many CR100s are actually in use (the internet is funny that way) and would further bet that it's a very small number. So, they made a business decision but handled it poorly. Do you actually own a CR100 that actually works?

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 11:19:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 10, 2018, 07:40:02 amThe mobile phone i use on a daily basis is like 11 years old my spare one is 10 years old, i do have a 2015-16 Huawei smart phone that i dont use because its a remote spying central.(no i didnt buy it i was given). Just because a electronic product becomes old does not mean the manufacturer later has the right to kill things i paid for. I dont ask for manufacturer to support it/them, the so called support is forced upon me.Are the problem that people expect to get updates and why so? Is the situation such that engineers deliberately construct products with such bad firmware marketing say; hey, we can use product support as an sales argument?If people are morons enough to pay and sign under an agreement, legal or not for a IOT juice press that deliberately get shut down, well.... but if the societal situation becomes that anything you buy are shut down by the manufacturer then we are in a serious "oligarchic fascist situation" and its your fault because you allowed it to happen, you might be the engineer behind it to!(devils advocate, like buying from aliexpress and then complain about Chinese child labor or arguing that child labor dont exist and all rivers in China are crystal clear).Manufacturers who deliberately conduct these terrorist acts by later kidnapping a sold product are infact destroying the market for them self's!Sonos and Juice press examples but what about John Deere tractor disabling? These tractors arenot 13 years old! Nor do they seam to be IOT'ed, here the situation is different with more devastating result! A tractor of that calibre is very expensive!

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 11:26:23 pm
content: If you want to fold shirts really fast you cut flaps into a piece of carboard, place the shirt on it, then flip the flaps really fast. If you wanted to build a folding machine you'd base it on this principle with actuators (pneumatic?) to flip the flaps that fold the cloths. You'd place the clothes flat on a conveyor, and when they reach a sensor a bar with grabber comes across and pulls the clothes onto the folding platform, the acutators trigger, then it tilts to slide the clothes down into a bin in about a second. If you wanted a manual version it would just be the flipper board with a foot switch.Oh dear...I think I've proven something we've known all along...the average EEVBlog member is smarter than the average CES exibiter

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 02:00:01 am
content: Sonos has not sold this for 8 years, but they are still having to pay developers to maintain it. As a business, at some point you just have to do this.Has anyone tried their G2 phones lately?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 03:02:51 am
content: Based on the ops link to the sonos discussion on it, it appears that the end users are more upset that there is no similar replacement for it, not using the phone applications,I can understand from a developers point of view after a decade the hardware may never be able to do all they want, but it seems odd to me that they are updating it to no longer work, I can understand things like a server API change meaning old hardware is no longer supported, but I struggle with why a device update would kill it. and not updating it leaves it working.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 03:41:08 am
content: Quote from: JustMeHere on February 11, 2018, 02:00:01 amDropping support or service is one thing. Destroying a product to force upgrade is another.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 04:36:49 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on February 10, 2018, 07:35:13 pmYou and most other people really, I read somewhere that fully 50% of smart TVs sold are never connected to the internet. I want a big screen with a great picture and a load of HDMI inputs, nothing else matters to me, most additional "features" are actually of negative value.My friend got a new OLED TV recently, didn't want the "smart" features but didn't have a choice. The thing took at least 5 minutes to boot up the first time and go through all the setup steps even though we never connected it to the network or hooked up the tuner. Like most TVs these days it's simply a monitor connected to his receiver.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 08:19:56 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 11, 2018, 03:41:08 amAnd then lying about it by claiming it's about safety of a battery that's easily replaced. If there is a danger then it's a fault in their charger design. At worst it should stop working until the battery is replaced

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 09:48:42 am
content: I think there is a bit of "grumpy old men" resisting change in this thread.The IoT concept isn't that bad, in itself. I'm all for Internet connected things if they can do something functional and helpful by being connected to the Internet. The Amazon buttons, while a bit cheesy are a fairly good idea. Although they kinda steal the show from the orginal idea of a fridge/cupboard that could reorder stuff for you. Instead of heavy banded advertising buttons that only order one thing.Folding clothes has nothing to do with IoT.The home automation category of devices seems to be drifting away from where I expected/hoped it would go and it's being dragged by the current "Cloud" trend. What the home automation space needs is a defacto home central hub. A server which becomes so popular that many manufacturers are forced by popular demand to write their automation logic for it. So instead of your automated curtains having to go online to a proprietary website to determine if it should open the curtains now or later it would have the logic locally and only periodically update it's daylight times and weather predictions.For so many automation devices it seems companies believe it is in their interest to put the entire control logic into a REST API on an Internet hosted website. The local device is just a dumb terminal that has to phone home to do anything. There are many reasons they do this, but few are palatable to me. It takes care of the remote access problems of configuring stuff so you, yourself can contact it remotely from your phone etc. However most people fail to realise that having the devices poll the Internet for commands and sending information is still effectively remote access, it's just remote access that is now outside of your control and... who uses that device/data and what for? What about the people who aren't meant to be using it and what will they use it for?It is why, armed with 20 years of software development and ... err.. 6 months of electronics learning I intend to make my home automation self sufficient. It will run on my LAN, use my logic and only present what I want it to for remote access or upload to cloud.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 11:59:49 am
content: Quote from: JustMeHere on February 11, 2018, 02:00:01 amLike what support? It is a remote controller afaik. It connects to the system through it's API and does stuff. Dont tell me they NEED to change the API and cannot leave the old one there. Usually this support means, that from the x size software team, 2 guys in 10% of the time has to work on the legacy system. You know what this "dropping support" usually means? That two guy left the company, because management didn't bother listening to them, and nobody knows anymore how the device works.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 01:15:54 pm
content: There are considerations. Things change server side which has an impact on software. Sometimes it is imposed through data centre security requirements, such as "You must upgrade your Java stack to 1.7" or "You must now support SSL encrypted database connections. Non SSL connections will be firewalls by end of <month>". Sometimes the company wants to reduce it's tech stack overhead and shift software towards a common stack.So the maintenance of these legacy systems is usually not small and often, but large and infrequent. Moving a 13 year old API from Java 1.5 to 1.7 or to support the companies new database version (upgrading the driver) could be weeks of work. The analysis might reveal there would be knock on effects which would require much more work and it would be simpler to re-write the whole thing.These kinds of estimates float back up to management who decide bricking all those products will probably cost them less in the long run.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 04:14:12 pm
content: Do not forget that HP did this as well sneakily, making a firmware upgrade with a timer in it, so that after a certain date the firmware would reject any aftermarket refilled cartridges as faulty.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 07:06:16 pm
content: Not sure this would be considered “malware”, but I was not happy to find that my Epson printer/scanner had some kind of ink pad, or total life printed page count TIMER software. While this model is “old”, it has not been heavily used, still works fine, and ink cartridges still available.One day you just get an error code, and can’t print. Upon researching online you find Epson’s built in firmware/software decides that the printers ink overflow pads or sponges are now full and “end of life”. This area of the printer absorbs ink overflow when you or it runs the inkjet cleaning process for example.More research finds online reset software available from various hack sites. I found a popular one, Russian site I believe, and paid the one time fee of $10 via PayPal for the little program that resets the internal timer shutoff, and printer is working fine again. There was really no other option as replacing the ink pads cost more then a new printer. I believe Epson was sued or took a lot of flak and had to offer a one time reset program, but I believe that offer was time limited.So the internal hardware “time bomb” was a shock to me. I don’t need to buy a new printer right now, though the hack solution might not appeal to everyone, assuming they even learn about the solution.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 07:24:23 pm
content: I deal with this issue by avoiding products with pointless complexity or certain keywords such as SMART, MICROSOFT, APPLE, LITHIUM, LENOVA, SAMSUNG, HP and now SONOS! Usually sensible alternatives can be found quite easily

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 09:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on February 11, 2018, 07:24:23 pmand usually...CHEAPER prices!if not that much cheaper, you still save save money onless-gadget rage- collateral damage,anger management visits,and prescribed medications...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 09:50:14 pm
content: Quote from: MacMeter on February 11, 2018, 07:06:16 pmMy friend ran into that same thing with his Epson printer, I think it was about 8 years ago. For that reason I will never even consider buying anything from Epson, I can hold a grudge for a long time and have zero tolerance for this sort of hostility toward the customer.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 09:57:08 pm
content: If I understand correctly, Sonos is leaving the option open not to upgrade your Sonos ecosystem and keep using it 'as is'.Not sure if I want to nail them to the wall for no longer supporting a 13 year old product whos functionality can now easily be taken over by any phone, tablet or computer in existence today.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 10:01:25 pm
content: I understand why they want to disable support for the device but had they done nice object oriented interface - it would not be an issue to maintain even with reduced functions. So stupid back-end design is forcing them to remove support.But reg IoT and all the other stuff. There are still so many things that has not been considered. None of the companies have ever done use cases over product life-cycle use cases. Questions like "how do I hand this over to a tenant?" or "How do I transfer control to a new owner?" are on the top of "stupid issues" you have to deal with on most home control systems. I have a few z-wave devices in my walls but not too many as I do not want to be in a situation where I have to take switches out to "repair or re-pair" them to a new owners system or disable them.The only system so far I have seen anything close - is Danfoss DeviSMART - where I can "mail" the whole configuration to someone else and they can become masters or just normal users. But DeviSMART forgot about Winter time this year and still have not updated it - and no way to force an update.So yes we are still in the very early ages of "IoT & (not so) SmartHomes".

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 10:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 10, 2018, 12:52:38 amWell, Sony Music was investigated in US because they distributedactualWindows malware with their CDs.The CDs had a "copy protection" program that once loaded itself in memory used rootkit techniques to evade detection and removal. It was installed without any consent from the user.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 10:06:58 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 11, 2018, 11:59:49 amThat assumes that the original software was written by Sonos. I bet it was outsourced.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 10:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on February 11, 2018, 09:57:08 pmThe problem with audio equipment is, sometimes (or often, depending on the particular piece of equipment) you buy it because of some unique properties (namely, you like the sound).I have a 40 year old Sennheiser MD441 microphone. And also a discintinued 10 year old CAD e100 that works wonders recording double bass. It't not like I can just replace them with a random microphone taken from a box. No piece of audio equipment is perfect. Each one has some compromise, and turns out that certain compromises match certain audio sources (speaking of microphones for example).The thing is, if you manufacture premium stuff to be sold at premium prices you should be ready to offer a lasting experience.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 10:10:07 pm
content: Don't get me wrong, I've loved Sonos up until recently but two things have annoyed me:Firstly, their recent changes to the controller software absolutely suck. The old software worked, the new versions are glitchy and complicated to use.Secondly, they now force you to sign up for a Sonos account just to be able to add a speaker to your system. Some say it's due to the new Sonos One needing this, but the old speakers don't. Why the hell should I be forced to sign up for and link my system to an online account?I'm seriously considering ditching all my Sonos gear and going down a different route. They just don't seem to be listening to their customers and a lot of them are pissed off.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 10:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 11, 2018, 09:50:14 pmWhile I’ll be hesitant regarding Epson printers in the future, it’s possible all brands have similar hidden programming. As mentioned by someone in an earlier post, HP has had issues as well.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 10:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: borjam link=topic=103826.msg1424045#msg1424045And they do? It's just an old controller that doesn't work anymore while everyone and their dog has a phone that will do the job just as well... And again: you're free to freeze the SW in the state it is and continue using it.Even though I'm pretty sure that within two years you'll get a message like 'yeah, well, if you wanna continue using Spotify with Sonos, you gotta have the latest SW, dude'.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2018, 11:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: MacMeter on February 11, 2018, 07:06:16 pmDo remember that if the waste ink pads do overflow, you'll have some rather messy cleanup to do, so along with resetting the counter you should probably clean those out --- or fit anexternal waste ink tank..That doesn't excuse the difficulty of resetting the counter, but there is good reason for providing one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 12:15:07 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 11, 2018, 11:50:21 pmThere are two things that they could have done to make the counter forgivable. One is make it easy to reset, maybe you have to look up in the manual to see what buttons to hold down for 10 seconds. Along with that, the waste ink pad should simply pop out the bottom via a battery holder type snap on lid. There is no excuse beyond pure greed for a replacement pad to cost more than $19.95 and that's being generous.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 01:21:13 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 12, 2018, 12:15:07 amNo, it should cost about $1. Just use a piece of kitchen sponge.

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 02:40:54 am
content: Quote from: imidis on February 09, 2018, 11:03:51 pmThis post is the best post here. I'd like it more than just once. Also as others have mentioned, this is not an isolated incident.Here is the why in my opinion from a business perspective.As you know businesses exist to make money. They always have and they always will. Consider that a business can keep the money flowing by gaining consumer trust and innovating. Traditionally most of that money was always meant to be used to innovate. One day you decide to pocket most of it while letting R&D get the crumbs instead or R&D under performs or you fail to set out a vision to innovate.What happens when you create public mistrust by doing stuff like this? Imho its going to lead to a market downturn.Heres how.Great old product loved so much that people buy or over use it than intended ---->Opt to develop a way to shut down said product use so a newer product can take its place. Even though the old product can still work. ---->Product while new, isn't that much of a jump in innovation. More like a mod or add on to the old product. ---->People find they can't afford another product and find an easier way to make their old hardware product work again ---->Time and resources wasted on trying to shut down the old when you could have just had ad/sales make a case on the new one and/or offer a redesign with more features a.k.a invest more into R&D. Basically something to regain trust and confidence. ---->Can't do that now because you've spent so much time and resources investing into business practices mentioned above. ----->Choose to double down on said practices and/or offer a very soft refund---->More people get upset about said unethical business practice because its a waste of resources both their time and yours ----->Consumers collectively refuse to buy new product (voted with their wallets) even though it may include more consumer friendly gains because you lost their trust ---->Watch as your business slows or even closes because you've wasted the potential earnings you could have had if you had just done this right the first time.Its a slow process and a very oversimplified one. Plus there are stops here that could fix this or unfortunately make it even worse (CEOs become more dependent on making the investor happy as a source of income). It just seems to me this flowchart shows what has been happening over the span of decades. It wouldn't surprise me if we find ourselves with an economic slowdown in the future.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 03:18:07 am
content: It's called "How to Kill a Reputation".Businesses that actually survive these challenges by NOT bricking products do so through innovation and/or diversification.Resting on your laurels is only good for retirees.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 05:21:44 am
content: One of the major root causes is that a lot of stuff these days is so ridiculously cheap that companies have to use the razor blade model and price the product below what is necessary to sustain a business, this means that they have to find another way of extracting the needed money from customers. I hate it, but it is the consumer's fault as much as anyone else. Price something such that it can be sold once, use reasonably priced consumables and be expected to last 10+ years and everyone will buy the piece of junk on the next shelf over that costs 1/10th as much out the door. The average consumer is too ignorant to understand the concept of total cost of ownership.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 07:36:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 12, 2018, 05:21:44 amThat's partially true, but the same things happens with electronics in the higher end markets where margins are a lot less stringent. If you can get away with it you do it, it seems.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 09:25:59 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on February 11, 2018, 10:01:25 pmLOL. You either don't work in software or you are a follower of the Emperor's new clothes.To elaborate:Exception: Unsupported major.minor version 51.0Because the new version of a library you needed is compiled with a more recent version of Java. You can't find one compiled with your old version. So you upgrade you JDK/JRE.Then you have dozens or hundreds of the same as you old Jar files don't link up with the new. So you start trying to upgrade your jars and each one knocks another dozen over.Opening a small, and I mean small, Java application here in work I have around 83 depenency jars. Even with Maven a cross the board upgrade would cause chaos.Upgrading a Java project that is multiple years old is not, at all for the faint hearted and can take weeks of developer time.As to OOP, The Emperor is Naked. It has failed to provide the magic be-all and end-all solutions that it promised. It has solved some complexities, but usually by adding different complexities. Today it is being used well outside of it's intention in ludicrously complicated ways. It is still not flexible and still requires code changes and because of those complexities it makes those changes far, far harder to do. This is why companies shelve support for older applications.You try and rewrite a Strutts application to be Spring Web Flow or a JSF application to be Drop Wizard or Play.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 01:31:48 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on February 12, 2018, 09:25:59 amNice. But still it doesn't explain why bother to release a new firmware that prevents the device to turn on again instead letting it incapable of interoperate due old firmware.Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 02:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: Naguissa on February 12, 2018, 01:31:48 pmWell it doesn't. I'm not sure of the particulars but does this Sonos device not require phoning home to work? So they send an update to make it clear that it can no longer phone home and therefore no longer work. I donno.I am in no illusions that this kind of practice will happen and in an increasing fashion. Software like devices is becoming more and more disposable. Rapid application frameworks which make developing fairly functional applications in a matter of weeks are very popular today, along with the Agile methodology. The downsides are that the frameworks themselves move on rapidly or go out of fashion and die as quickly as they became the new best thing.So the life expectancy of applications server side will shrink in the coming decades. The practice of bricking old hardware devices when server side upgrades will become even more common."Sorry we bone you, but just buy a new one, here's a token discount voucher", will become the norm.Just avoid them if you can.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 03:27:19 pm
content: A troubling trend though is this "that's the way it is" or "everyone else does it" "just accept it". NO, we don't need to accept this behavior. I don't have any sonos products but I understand their predicament. It's one thing to phase out support, it's another to brick it. If I had one I could understand the reasoning. I know it's not the norm but we have one cell phone, it's a phone we use it, it's mobile we take it with us. So if we used it to control things whoever was home would be hooped.As to printers, those cheap inkjets are ripoffs. Do the math on ink. You are better of paying a higher up front cost and getting a serviceable laser printer for most printing. If you need photos done it's way cheaper to have them printed by a company that can do it. Also, if you print and only need BW print in BW in options otherwise it uses all the colors! (in most cases)

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 03:46:41 pm
content: On 1st post:https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/save-the-cr100-6800510/QuoteSo, brick if update, no brick if not update.Quote from: paulca on February 12, 2018, 02:01:04 pm

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 08:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: imidis on February 12, 2018, 03:27:19 pmIndeed, I hate the "But <insert trendy tech company> does it and you're ok with that?!" argument. No! I'm not ok with that, it pisses me off and another company jumping on the bandwagon makes it even worse!I got fed up with inkjets and got a color laser printer about 10 years ago, never looked back. Inkjets do print much nicer color photos though.

author: jasonbrent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 01:47:59 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on February 11, 2018, 10:06:58 pmi'm under the impression it was in house. .... at least, I used to know an engineer who worked on the original design of the product in question, and that's what I took away from old conversations.... but the grapevine is ultimately just raisins.

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 11:53:03 am
content: My networked HP printer stopped printing. After an hour of checking this or that I found the problem. It was an advertisement to buy a given brand of printing paper on the printer server computer. If you do not acknowledge this advertisement you do not print. Only after clicking the " not interested " button can you print. How could a big company like HP allow such malware to be packaged in with their software?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 12:14:26 pm
content: I think the term there is invasive adware, not malware.HP wrote the book on adware.When you buy an HP printer, put the CD it comes with absolutely nowhere but the microwave.Drivers installed from the HP disc: 527Mb. Drivers downloaded from the website, <50Mb. The disc contains all manor of ad supported and ad producing non-sense.

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 05:44:04 pm
content: If I put the CD in a microwave it will heat up and worp. I would not be able to add aggressive advertising software on my computer but on the other hand there is the danger that the CD would catch fire? I should write HP and ask if they could delete the aggressive advertising software to reduce the possibility of my microwave starting a fire.What gets me is HP was a giant and leader in technology not that long ago. How could they have fallen so low? What happened and who let it happen. Is there no pride in the USA to allow this to happen to one of their shining jewels. HP is a historical center of silicon valley. Its like pissing on the statue of liberty and no one cares.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 05:50:30 pm
content: Have not heard of Carly Fiorina??

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 06:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 13, 2018, 05:50:30 pm+1

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 07:02:47 pm
content: Those bastards don't understand the world out there is smarter than their R&D, users will posts in forums the device stopped to work. The internet information shit Tsunami will then hit the fans and they will get their asses kicked by angry customers.Fuuu them.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 08:51:30 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on February 13, 2018, 07:02:47 pmOr we could just wireshark their shit and block all their adware, spyware, and update IPs, then tell everyone else what they are to block them.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 09:23:05 pm
content: Wait... wait... wait...Youhaven'tput a CD in the microwave yet? Seriously?Man, go do it. It's awesome fun. Creates a very pretty light show, makes a weird ozone mixed with burning plastic smell and creates a beautiful pattern, which if you are like me, leaves you wondering why the pattern is the shape it is.No longer than 5-10 seconds. Put it, on high, hit START and wait until you see the first light show, say, 1000, 2000, and hit STOP.Your CD is ready.If you want to freak people out at a party, try this one...Fill a glass of water half way. Put a normal incandescent bulb in the water, make absolutely sure the water covers the metal fitting completely, but only the metal fitting. Put it in the microwave on high, hit START and the light bulb will light up. It even works with blown light bulbs.It's100%mostly safe.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 10:52:58 pm
content: You don't even have to cover the metal base, a light bulb sitting in a microwave will light up like a plasma globe on steroids. Just don't leave it in there for too long or it will pop and get glass everywhere.