New handheld DMM in town... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 01:43:13 am
content: It's a Kaiweets KM601 available on Amazon for $50 USDAny thoughts?I see it's making the rounds of test benches:https://www.youtube.com/user/TheBreadboardca/videoshttps://www.youtube.com/user/TheDefpom/videos

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 01:58:47 am
content: All those big colorful display meters look great on 3D renders and they all look like shit in real life. Too dim and even dim visible only when you look at them at one angle.I also don't understand the appeal of those buttons. Never in my life I thought "boy, turning range switch is such a downer". And auto function is the last feature I want on a meter. Who is this even for? How often you are not sure what you want to measure?

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 02:07:00 am
content: I guess it would be okay for a beginner or non-engineer.I'll just stick with my Fluke 87V. (whole different ballpark though.)

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 02:20:13 am
content: What I look for first is spacings and protection. The PTC trace run is pretty close to COM, and then worse at the header pads- tiny HV spacings I would call a fail given the Cat. III 1,000V/Cat. IV 600V claims that are obviously fake.There's no stand for it, oddball 6x30mm fuses (pic taken from review), likely poor contrast with so much on the LCD, and 9.999mA is the lowest current range I think. Same as Hobotest HT116.USD $50 is way too much. More of the cellphone motif, no I'm not holding it in my hand forever.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 05:52:06 am
content: Quote from: MarkF on December 08, 2021, 01:43:13 amAt that price? No way in hell.Quote from: MarkF on December 08, 2021, 01:43:13 amKaiweets are well known for sending "free samples" to youtubers.The previous version of that meter got plenty of glowing reviews on youtube but was garbage in real life.eg.

author: MiroS
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 01:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: MarkF on December 08, 2021, 01:43:13 amMine is - ignore and drain the water ...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 02:01:48 am
content: Apart from a curiosity, IMO $50 is too much for this multimeter.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 02:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2021, 05:52:06 amI think KISS recently received some free products from Hioki and Omicron as well. I've watched a few of his videos. He's one of the few reviewers actually doing something with the products they send him. Compared with the open box, show the bits, blab for a half hour about how great it is, point to the PTCs and call them MOVs, point the the op-amps and call them LCD controllers, give it 5 stars, rinse and repeat.He should do very well.I suspect you won't find too many reviewers getting free samples calling the products garbage.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 04:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 09, 2021, 02:32:58 pmI wonder if you could succeed with a YouTube channel where you actually do trash products, the idea being that the 'free samples' would be sent to youby competitors.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 05:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 09, 2021, 02:32:58 pmIt's true that he does more than simply open the box and point at them.He also openly admits that they're free samples.I haven't heard him say anything bad about them though. The only thing that I've seen him trash is Fluke.(not that I've watched more than half a dozen of his videos)

author: wn1fju
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 12:51:27 pm
content: I just received my Kaiweets KM601. I paid $43.50 with free shipping on eBay. Or at least that is where I thought I was buying it from. It came via Amazon delivery two days later. My thoughts....The specifications, of course, are pretty mediocre. Best case is DCV at +/-0.5% (+ 3 counts). My unit consistently reads about 0.3% low on DCV and ACV. The Ohms, DCI, ACI, Frequency, and C values are much closer to nominal, comfortably exceeding the specifications.The specifications are given over an 18 to 28 degree Celsius range. Since my lab is usually about 17 degrees, I put the unit in the oven for a few minutes and raised its displayed internal temperature to 23 degrees. Against my 10 VDC standard, the voltage reading went from 9.970 V to 9.978 V.The buttons and user interface are OK, but it can be annoying to keep pressing the button to march through the functions. Also, the ambient temperature is displayed in Celsius and doesn't appear that it can be changed to Fahrenheit (it will show F if you are in the temperature function). The test leads are pretty much junk as one would expect at this price point.Although I have metrology-grade equipment, I didn't have a portable DMM. What I like most of all about the KM601 is its size - it will fit in your pocket. It's a nice piece to have if you need to check things around the home and aren't concerned about ppm accuracy!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:01:02 pm
content: It appears he has a few Fluke rants now. This is the one I had watched. He had written me about the tests I run and he mentioned safety. I attempted to clarify what I was showing but that doesn't always sink in. 7:14 it's clear that he didn't grasp it but that's fine. The only reason you don't see me with a new Fluke is they don't offer a meter that suits me. He talks about the cost but I look at the Fluke 189 that my friend had gave me. Say it cost $700 new and is 30 years old. Can I afford the $25/year? I tend to look at the longer term and as long as I buy a tool that I know I will use for the long run, I don't have a problem. Funny is just two days ago, friends UNI-T was acting up and they asked for help. Bad switch contacts. Then again, the free meters from HF are about as robust and accurate as my first Fluke.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2021, 05:52:06 amAnd they are bloody persistent. Banggood levels of persistent.I think I have another one on my mailbag bench even though I told them not to send it. I don't think I'll open it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: wn1fju on December 10, 2021, 12:51:27 pmIf size is what you want, get a proper pocket meter. I've done a two part shootout.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:23:34 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 10, 2021, 01:01:02 pmThey are expensive. And they don’t send free meters. Baaad Fluke.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 10, 2021, 01:01:02 pmI thought this video was new so I commented. Turns out it's a year old.Here is my comment on his rant about Flukes being overpriced:Fluke meters are expensive for many reasons, none of which has anything to do with protection:1) Lifetime warranty2) Build quality and proven measurement confidence. Those that don't understand the concept of measurement confidence have never work in a professional field that takes metrology seriously.3) Longevity of production. What other maker still has the same model available after almost 30 years? For many clients, e.g. military, this is a BIG deal. Again, if you don't know why that's important then you've never worked on military stuff.4) Made in the USA5) They pioneered the field the field of digital meters and became the defacto standard. They don't *have* to make cheap meters, they have a massive professional client base that demand their meters.6) They maintain world class calibration labs and standards.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 03:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2021, 01:29:40 pmHe's right about the crappy "standard" leads though.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 04:27:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2021, 01:29:40 pmIIRC some fluke meter production is outsourced to china?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 05:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on December 10, 2021, 04:27:14 pmYes, they're a global company. They build a line in China for the Chinese market, they have Brymen OEM some of their clamp meters in Taiwan and their 113-117 line is made in Malaysia. But most of those products aren't really all that expensive. Their premium industrial line is made in the USA (at least assembled still) and has the 10 year lifetime warranty, those are the ones generally regarded as 'expensive'.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 05:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2021, 01:29:40 pmI think he's simply butt-hurt because Fluke doesn't mail out free samples to random vloggers.

author: Algoma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 05:45:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2021, 01:07:18 pmDave needs an small industrial shredder in the bunker for safe destruction of sub-par products that dont meet safety standards.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 06:06:58 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 10, 2021, 05:16:28 pmI'd love to know how much is actuallymadethere these days. Is it just putting the PCB in the case and screwing the back on or are the PCBs and individual components manufactured and assembled there? It's hard for me to imagine them manufacturing things like resistors and LCDs in the USA but I'm a huge ignoramus.Any insights from the forum?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 06:11:01 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2021, 01:07:18 pmWasn't there a device where you did a terrible review of it and they put it on their web site anyway?ie. They didn't even look at the video they just went with"As reviewed on EEVBLOG!"

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 06:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on December 10, 2021, 04:27:14 pmThere are a range of China ONLY models too.Good sound basic DMM's they are too and at reasonable prices.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 06:38:57 pm
content: How strange a low-end DMM takes us to a Fluke discussion.Effective 8/2021 FTC updated the definition of"Made in the USA"to stop deceptive/unqualified claims. I would expect Fluke marketing/products to be affected.1. Final assembly or processing of the product occurs in the United States;2. All significant processing that goes into the product occurs in the United States; and3. All or virtually all ingredients or components of the product are made and sourced in the United States.Although final calibration "processing" I think is done at Fluke Everett WA- which would wash the origin of the components. Taiwan prices are too seductive, and the Brymen shipments to Fluke show they're capitalizing on that.We've already had this flame war, and how much of Fluke multimeters is actually American content nowadays is not known, but their prices command 100% and the quality is still well worth it, so suck it up. They are King of the Hill.The approach of giving out free samples and creating an ecosystem of fake reviewers, seems to be free candy for making propaganda about how sweet the lemon tastes.

author: Twoflower
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 06:39:05 pm
content: I think I saw a very similar multimeter on a Youtube-Review but with another branding. The Show was called "Mailbag" or something like thathttps://youtu.be/J7kBzYX1NvA?t=1215

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 06:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2021, 06:06:58 pmFluke 116 says "Made in Malaysia". Fluke 323 clamp meter says "Assembled in Malaysia".The FTC has rules about the claim "Made in the USA" but I don't know of any significant enforcement. Under those rules, the final assembly, assembly of the PCB, the case and display would probably all have to be of US origin. I'm sure individual minor circuit board components could be sourced globally without issue.https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 06:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 10, 2021, 06:38:38 pmYep. And the components inside them aren'tverymuch different from the far more expensive occidental meters.Maybe $15 difference in BOM. Go figure.(Yeah, we know: The lifetime guarantee, etc.)

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 11:01:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2021, 01:29:40 pmI find points 3 to 6 kinda ... stretchy. Why would one want to pay extra for that? Ah, yes, military... Well, no wonder that doesn't appeal much to youtubers.Anyway, I can continue the list:7) they have yellow colorcheap flukes don't have current range to make it safer9) certain models were equipped with leaky super-caps so you can exercise life-time warranty...

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:08:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2021, 01:07:18 pmDon't turn it on, take it apart! And leave it apart. You might even be able to salvage some useful components out of it...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:19:15 am
content: Quote from: exe on December 10, 2021, 11:01:35 pmIt isn't just military, there are lots of customers that want the models not to change all the time. And when they finally have to change because all of the parts are hopelessly obsolete, they want the new model to replace the old one more or less directly, or in the case of bench DMMs, have an emulation mode so that automated systems can continue on without interruption or too much reconfiguration.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:02:44 am
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on December 10, 2021, 04:27:14 pmYes, they are the cheaper models deliberately marketed at the lower cost and asia specific markets. Those don't have the lifetime warranty.But all the meter they are famous for like the 70,80 and 20 series are all made in the USA.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:04:44 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 10, 2021, 06:38:57 pmWhat do Brymen have to do with Fluke?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:10:30 am
content: Quote from: exe on December 10, 2021, 11:01:35 pmFluke's market is not hobbyists.It costs money to maintain older products, and in the case of Fluke, in the 27II they actually produced a new dumbed down average responding meter to cater for those companies and institutions that didn't want to change their documentation and procedures and move to an updated RMS meter. No other company that I am aware of does that. This is why Fluke is the prefered choice for many, and they are happy to pay for it. Just because the price point of Fluke isn't right for you or your industry, does not invalidate them as an industry leader for others.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:11:25 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 11, 2021, 01:19:15 amYes, Fluke did this with the 27-II, and Keysight famously did it for their bench meter replacements.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:18:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2021, 02:04:44 amBrymen OEMs certain Fluke products, like clamp meters and some multimeters sold by Fluke under the Amprobe brand.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:21:25 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 11, 2021, 02:18:36 amYes, but not actual Fluke branded stuff?Fluke ended up with that deal as part of the Amprobe acquisition by Danaher.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:23:49 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2021, 02:21:25 amI'd have to look up a previous thread, but I thought we'd figured out that certain Fluke-branded clamp meters were Brymen.Edit: here it isAnd here is a picture of the back of one with conflicting (maybe?) statements of origin:

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:32:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2021, 02:10:30 amPrecisely. That was something I think I commented in one of his videos as well. Having a reliable and known piece of equipment in your hands is very valuable for many industry segments, not only military. Also, they still have so much functionally sound details buried in their MSP430 firmware that it becomes hard to compete, especially with several of the new chipsets that are lacklustre here and there.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 07:14:33 am
content: Quote from: exe on December 10, 2021, 11:01:35 pmI find points 3 to 6 kinda ... stretchy. Why would one want to pay extra for that?Big organizations make internal training videos and stuff like that. They don't want the meter to change.Companies with product liability might need to demonstrate in court that they only use trusted equipment, that they maintain it, and they have the paper trail to prove it.Bottom line: Fluke makes meters that are aimed at a particular customer profile. If you're not in that profile then Fluke isn't the best brand for you and you shouldn't be considering one*. You can get much better value for money with other brands.(*) Unless you can somehow score a good used meter on the cheap, eg. an 87V for $200 or a 289 for $300 shouldn't be turned down, but that's unlikely in most of the world.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 08:15:40 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 11, 2021, 07:14:33 amYes, those who don't understand this have clearly never worked in an industry that demands this. These people will think all this stuff is pointless, and it can be hard to convey how spending a few hundred extra on a meter and traceable metrology may actually save you thousands in incidental costs, or even more, like contract non-compliance. This is a big deal to a lot of companies that Joe Everage Engineer may never work at.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 08:17:20 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 11, 2021, 02:23:49 amOk, seems like it is.AFAIK there is no multimeter under the Fluke brand made by an OEM though?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 10:58:24 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 08, 2021, 01:58:47 amThis. To me, using a meter at a bench with great lighting is the exception not the rule and frankly quite a luxury. The rest of the time I see what ppl pull out to measure the great unknown with compared with my Fluke. These meter designers crap on about how it does this and that. But they forgot to bother taking the damn prototype outside or into a dark room. [Jackie_Chan_Why.jpg]

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:20:42 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 11, 2021, 10:58:24 amThey're not all like that though. My Fluke 189 is a tiny bit lacking but I don't have any problem seeing my Anengs or my Brymen.The only meter I've seen that was 100% "nope" in my lighting was the black/white version of the Kaiweets meter shown at the start of this thread. The display on that meter was just awful. I'd buy another meter rather than use it.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:21:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2021, 08:17:20 amThat's a grey area in a lot of cases and I don't know the nature of their arrangements in having their stuff manufactured in China, Taiwan or Malaysia. There is contract manufacturing of a product you designed entirely, there's rebadging a product someone else designed and everything in between. I'm pretty sure that there aren't any Fluke meters--even the Brymen-made clamp meters--that are rebadged products designed by someone else. So Brymen's role would be quite different than it is with Greenlee or Amprobe. Typically if Fluke wants to sell someone else's product, they buy the company.Here is an interesting example of a very early Fluke contract manufacturer in China (for the Chinesee market):https://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/digital/collection/imlsmohai/id/15336/

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 08:44:12 pm
content: Quote from: exe on December 10, 2021, 11:01:35 pm3 is very important for the industry as many production lines have to quantify why they use that meter. They have to do R&R studies etc and get approval from customers and even higher up. A change or upgrade can cause a nightmare of issues.For me 2 is the main one. If handed a fluke to calibrate I know 9 out of 10 times it makes a decision on the reading and sticks to it. Often within a digit or so. But with the cheap ones, a battery running low can cause it to become a random number generator. But even with a full battery it can just wander all over the place and give out some rather crappy readings, making very good use of the Specifications handed down with it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 07:23:22 am
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on December 11, 2021, 08:44:12 pmI've yet to see a $20 meter that does this.(unless the leads are broken)

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 02:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 10, 2021, 06:45:25 pmassambled could mean there is some restriction to sell or make or something related to taxUSA army contract cant buy made in china or north korea

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 07:38:04 pm
content: One thing Fluke are not good at is customer service, at least here in the UK. I have a Fluke DMM needing a new case back due to battery corrosion and a Visual IR thermometer needing a new front housing part. The DMM is apparently a RTB repair only (!) and they want £850 for that!!! Almost the cost of a new meter!! With the VIRT I just cannot get them to either advise the P/no and supply, or provide a service agent contact to do that. The part is a simple 2 screw remove and replace job. Just trying to talk to them is like they don't speak the same language and they have never come back to me despite saying they would. The service agents are the same. Maybe it would be different if they were dealing with a multi national corp or government, but they do not state anywhere that they only deal with such.Their products do have merit but I think they have become an institution for big commerce now and have little relevance to humble single user geeks.We do have alternatives though, personally I like Brymen and Flir. Keysight, stupid name, are also very good but should be at the price and are becoming Fluke like in their self perceived status.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2022, 08:33:53 pm
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on January 04, 2022, 07:38:04 pmYep. We're not their target market, we can get a much better deal elsewhere.(and as you've seen, the famous Fluke service/support can lacking if you're outside the USA so there's not even that)

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 12:16:57 am
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on January 04, 2022, 07:38:04 pmSo (assuming your experience isn't an outlier) Fluke isn't good in the UK, when dealing with individuals, and Keysight apparently won't even talk to you as an individual anymore.That makes me wonder: is thereanytop-tier T&M manufacturer that's any good with individuals in the UK? Because if not, then I'm convinced that the problem isn't with the companies, but rather with the UK itself, and it would lead me to believe that the UK has managed to regulate itself into irrelevance as regards individuals, and might well be going in the same direction for everyone else.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2022, 12:29:24 am
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on January 04, 2022, 07:38:04 pmWhat are the model numbers of the two meters? The DMM wouldn't happen to be a 28EXii would it?