Rechargeable Alkalines? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2024, 08:41:49 pm
content: When I was a child, I discovered that regular store-bought alkaline batteries could be recharged, and reused multiple times. I recall having a laptop back in the 90s which had a rechargeable battery pack that was alkaline not lithium. It lasted well over 10 years, much longer than any lithium battery pack.Then, I guess it was in the 80s, I saw a TV commercial for an alkaline battery recharger. The inventor said he was a college professor who had invented a charger, so you could "save a lot of money by not buying new batteries all the time." Well, a few months later, I don't recall, but I think it was less than a year, when another company took it's place. I think it was called, "Pure Energy." The rechargeable alkaline batteries now cost several times as much as the regular store-bought kind, and the chemistry had changed in the store-bought kind, making them no longer rechargeable.I'm going to sound a bit paranoid here, but it looks like industry conspired to get rid of a potentially positive contribution to the public good, which was sacrificed in the name of greed and profit.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2024, 08:50:00 pm
content: You can recharge alkaline cells to some extent, with some caveats. You can not let them discharge fully, the smaller the discharge before charging the better. You can only charge them at a low rate and the capacity drops pretty quickly with repeated charging cycles. Also there is the ever present risk of leakage.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2024, 08:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on December 27, 2024, 08:50:00 pmYeah, no, I found it a waste of time doing that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2024, 08:57:18 pm
content: I don't think laptops ever used rechargeable alkalines.Where they did exist they were a fairly novelty product. I think the one that I remember using was only rated to around 10 recharge cycles. The novelty was they weren't much more expensive than a conventional alkaline and they had 1.5V output.Most likely you had an early laptop with a NiMH battery, those definitely existed (and some even had lead acid batteries, like the Apple PowerBook 100).

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2024, 10:04:56 pm
content: You could always recharge alkalines to some extent with the right charger, but only a few times. And the risk of leaks was a real problem.Purpose made rechargable alkalines were designed to recharge more, often claimed up to low 100s of cycles. They had a nice niche for a few years in the 90s and early 2000s before low self discharge NiMH batteries became widely available and inexpensive. But they were only usable in low drain or occasional use applications because of their low cycle life.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2024, 10:28:55 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 27, 2024, 08:51:33 pmWhether it'spossibleto recharge them is not open to question, you absolutely can and I used to do it pretty regularly as a young, penniless teen. Whether it is worth doing given the limitations and risks is another question.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 03:35:00 am
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_alkaline_battery25 full cycles, no wonder they fell out of popularity.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 08:56:00 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 27, 2024, 08:41:49 pmYou just remember wrong, probably both the battery type and how long it truly lasted.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 10:06:10 am
content: The recharging of alklines was only a few cycles and the recharge was only to a fraction (like 50%) of the capacity. On the positive side the batteries where not really more expensive than regular alkaline. The big issue was more the risk of leakage than a limited number of cycles.Voltage wise they should be the same as regular alkaline: some 1.6 V when full and going down over time to maybe 1.2 V usable. When the 1.25 V from NiMH or NiCd were not enough, the useful capacity of the alkaline cells also goes down.

author: jogri
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 11:04:11 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 27, 2024, 08:41:49 pmNo, it's just a truly horrendous system without many benefits but with a bunch of problems.-Your electrolyte (water) breaks down and releases hydrogen while charging -> that has to vent, and less electrolyte automatically means lower performance-The mangan oxide on the cathode side is VERY prone to irreversible side reactions -> massive decrease in capacity per cycle-The zinc anode is the worst offender of them all, it will never grow into a useful rod again and instead form dendrites everywhere -> lowers capacity, if you're lucky it just short-circuits the battery during chargingBetter to just drop it entirely and avoid having to sort out yet another type of batteries for recycling.For reference, metallic Lithium anodes have the exact same dendrite problem. Even today, this is not solved at all, which is why every commercial Li battery uses Lithium in graphite instead. We would very much like to use Li metal, but it just kills the battery after a few cycles.And the main reason for Li was energy density, you'll never get close to that with a chemistry that relies on heavy atoms (Manganese, Zinc) in your cell.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 12:22:03 pm
content: I'm always a bit mystified by the way some people step up to defend planned obsolescence.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 12:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 12:22:03 pmI'm more mystified how some people see malice where there clearly is none. Planned obsolescence is pretty much real but mostly dealt on software side today. But battery technology has improved so much in all respects that you need to be pretty delusional to think it was somehow better in the past.I had a NiMH laptop in 1990's, too. Battery last 60 minutes of actual use and after 2 years of use it was dead. Good riddance.

author: jogri
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 12:38:29 pm
content: Me? In my dayjob i'm a chemist doing research into the behaviour of Li metal anodes...It has nothing to do with planned obsolescence or sinistre cabals, we just don't know how to do it, even 30 years later in research (for reference, the current Li batteries were developed in labs in the 80s).Back then, everything better than a lead acid was a success, but that wasn't a particularly high bar so of course some weird "yeah, it somewhat works for five cycles with horrendous efficiency" was okay, but with NiMH there just wasn't a reason to continue.The beauty of alkaline batteries is that they are dirt-cheap to manufacture, re-engineering them into something better suited for recharging probably would've taken a ton of time (we don't even have a solution for the major dendrite problem 20+ years later) and driven up the price, for a chemistry where it was plain obvious that it would still suck. Just not worth it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 12:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 12:22:03 pmMaybe because:a) Not everything that involves a product's life is planned obsolescence.b) Those people actually know what they're talking about, as opposed to your constant approach of knowing very little (often entirely wrong) and somehow thinking that is equivalent (or even superior!) to someone else'sactualexpertise.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 12:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2024, 12:46:14 pmIndeed. There are clearly some examples of planned obsolescence. But in many cases, people blame planned obsolescence when there is a better explanation, which is that cheap things only last a short amount of time. ("Buy cheap, buy twice")Most brands** do not get repeat customers if they produce crap. So there is really no economic incentive to making a product deliberately fail, because they will not make additional sales from that customer. Put it this way, if someone goes and buys a Samsung TV that dies on them out of warranty, are they then going to buy a Samsung fridge or dishwasher? Probably not, as their image of the brand will be tarnished. And, they are also unlikely to buy another Samsung TV. So where is the incentive for Samsung to build a product that fails quickly? There isn't one. However, there is a big incentive to get the sale price of that TV down below $499 so they can ship as many as they can.**There are some obvious exceptions, I think Apple is the biggest one, where people like to 'upgrade' every year or two for whatever reason. But even then I think there is not so much a built in obsolescence, as an unwillingness to provide endless support for a once-sold product. iPhones get software updates for 7 years, but the phones aren't useless after that date. It just becomes a money sink for the company to continue providing updates, since the updates would need to be progressively stripped down to maintain compatibility with older architectures and processors, and some devices simply won't keep up with the software changes.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 01:23:46 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 27, 2024, 08:41:49 pmI did too. I recall breadboarding a pulse charger for them when I was back at school. This worked brilliantly for things like my walkman until the day one "went off" in the charger and sprayed electrolyte all over my desk and carpet. About 5 cycles seemed to be the limit (from distant memory) until the sealing surfaces were compromised to the point they let go.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 01:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on December 28, 2024, 01:23:46 pmYeah. In one case I can still recommend recharging alkaline batteries today: it's the case you run out batteries, don't have replacements, and stores are not open to go buy replacements. Then just take the dead cells, and slowly (like at C/10) charge them from a lab supply for a few hours. Maybe you are able to recover 30-40% of charge quite safely, enough for the batteries to work again until you can go and buy replacements. I have successfully done exactly this a few times.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 04:35:54 pm
content: This appears to be another troll thread.I've tried it before and it was never good enough to be worth it. I recall seeing a special alkaline charger in a mail order catalogue back in the 90s. It was a stupidly expensive price and probably consisted of a transformer, bridge rectifier and resistor, like trickle charge NiCad chargers did back then.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 05:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 27, 2024, 08:41:49 pmThose batteries would have been NiCd or NiMH.Yes, you are sounding as if you latch onto unlikely conspiracy theory ideas. If you want to avoid that happening, I suggest you do something conspiracy theorists conspicuously avoid: decent recearch + Occam's Razor.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 05:41:48 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 12:22:03 pmThat is something a troll would say.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 05:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 12:22:03 pmThere are not a lot of defenders of planned obsolescence here! Lithium batteries and charging techiques have gotten vastly better and laptop batteries can and do last 10 years. My phone battery is 7 years old IIRC and hasn't degraded noticeably. I use rechargeable 9V/AA/AAA batteries in almost everything now (Li-ion for 9V, NiMH Eneloop for AA/AAA). I even have Tenergy C and D cells for flashlights. Rechargeable alkalines were an idea that just didn't work out due to competition with better products. I'm just imagining life if my smoke detectors used rechargeable 9V alkalines.An uncited passage from the Wikipedia page:If they are discharged by less than 25%, they can be recharged for hundreds of cycles to about 1.42 V. If they are discharged by less than 50%, they can be almost fully recharged for a few dozen cycles, to about 1.32 V. After a deep discharge, they can be brought to their original high-capacity charge only after a few charge-discharge cycles.That doesn't sound particularly useful and certainly not better in any way than NiMH.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 06:12:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 28, 2024, 05:40:46 pmI may have been a child, but I certainly knew what types of batteries I had.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 06:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 06:12:22 pmThe individual cells, sure. The laptop battery pack, I'm not so sure. That sounds improbable, but if you could cite the specific model that might help.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 06:32:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 28, 2024, 05:40:46 pmIt depends what he is remembering. If laptop includes some of the very simple note taking machines, he might be remembering alkaline non-rechargeable cells. If he is remembering a more conventional type of laptop, that would have been NiMH from the early 90s, with some NiCd ones before that. Most of the early portable machines only operated from mains power.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 06:38:07 pm
content: I've rechearged a couple of times some alkaline batteries. Once did an experiment out of curiosity, with a handful of AA/AAA taken from an EE waste, various brands. It mostly worked, but with various results. Here's a chart while charging 2 different brands of AA under the same charging current (and these are two close results, other batteries were differ much wildly):Chart fromhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/why-the-beak-like-shaped-v-then-the-wiggling-while-recharging-alkaline-at-ict/Once I've even did a fan-less constant current chargerhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/recharge-non-rechargeable-alkaline-batteries-with-a-broken-leds-light-bulb/so I could try more brands without the fan humm of my DP832 power supply.My conclusion, most of the times it is possible to put some charge back into alkaline batteries, but:- definitely not worth the effort- some might not take charge at all- what's worst, ABOUT HALF of the AA/AAA alkalines WILL VENT AND LEAK a few daysafterrecharging!Not kidding, many of the AAA/AA I've fooled around with (about 20-30 pcs.) did vent somewhere in the first 2 weeks. I'm talking about batteries that were recharged then left sitting on the workbench, indoors, no temperature stress, no load. They vent and leak out of the blue. A few of them happened to vent and leak while I was at the PC, so I could hear them: a soft pop, short hiss, followed by small visible bubbling/leak of the corroding thing at the negative end.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 06:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 28, 2024, 05:41:48 pmIt's funny how readily some people throw out that term, expecting to "win" something in an online discussion.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 06:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 12:22:03 pmIf anything, "rechargable" batteries that are only good for a few dozen cycles and lose capacity rapidly are the "planned obsolescence" option. They have been completely replaced by LSD NiMH batteries that don't leak and last for thousands of cycles. There is no conspiracy here, just a better product replacing one that was a niche use even when it was most popular.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 06:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 06:39:39 pmWhen there's a troll in a discussion there are no winners, only losers.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 07:06:07 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on December 28, 2024, 06:38:07 pmRecharging a battery is a bit like running time backwards. We can tell from real life that some things are physically able to be reversed, and some things are not. If you pull down a window blind, you can reverse that many times and the window blind remains as functional as ever. However, if you drop and break a vase, you cannot reverse that. Once the vase is in a hundred pieces the damage is irreversible.Something similar happens with the design of rechargeable batteries. When a battery system discharges, there are physical changes that happen internally. The art of a good rechargeable battery is to arrange matters so the physical changes on discharge can be reversed on charging and leave things looking the same as they were before. Some battery systems do this well, and some don't. A primary alkaline cell (or zinc chloride cell) is an example of a system that does not physically go backwards. Sure, the chemical reactions could in theory be reversed, but the physical changes inside the cell cannot be undone.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 09:07:08 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 06:12:22 pmState the laptop manufacturer and type. Then we can verify your unlikely statement.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 09:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 28, 2024, 12:56:20 pmExactly!!!Making things shoddier to save money is not the same thing as targeted reduction of a thing's lifespan. I don't know why so many people refuse to accept this. :/Quote from: tom66 on December 28, 2024, 12:56:20 pmExactly!Quote from: tom66 on December 28, 2024, 12:56:20 pmWell that's a bizarre take. Apple is the best in the industry in the exact things you're criticizing them for.For one, Apple owners do not upgrade every year or two, statistically speaking. On the contrary, Apple devices havelongeraverage service lives than competing products, and this has been the case since the turn of the millennium. The devices are well-made and so they last. Of course there are some individuals who like to have the latest and greatest every year, but those people exist for every brand.It's outright insane to criticize Apple for "an unwillingness to provide endless support for a once-sold product" for their7 yearsof iOS updates, when everyone else struggles to provide3 yearsof updates to their phones. Heck, this is something even many Android critics praise Apple for.I'm not in any way saying that Apple is perfect, but everyone else is worse. Or much worse.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 11:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 28, 2024, 06:12:22 pmExcept that you are, with practicallyzerodoubt, mistaken. You did not have a 1990s laptop with rechargeable alkaline batteries because such a laptop did not exist. Exactly 4 kinds of rechargeable batteries were used in laptops in the 1990s: sealed lead-acid, NiCd, NiMH, and Li-Ion. That's it.It's also comparatively unlikely that you had a laptop at all, given that laptops were still very expensive through most of the 90s, which is why people mostly owned desktops back then.There were some dinky little portable computers like the 1983 Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 which ran off of normal AA batteries. Those could have been powered by (externally charged) alkaline, NiCd or NiMH batteries, but they were hopelessly outdated by the 90s.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2024, 11:54:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2024, 11:33:41 pmMy understanding (and recollections), are there were lots of AA battery powered, laptop and hand-held computers, around in that era.As you said, typically they were expecting 'standard' AA batteries, and didn't charge the batteries themselves.(I could be mistaken), but I think the issue, was that they needed, close to the full 1.5 volts of Alkaline batteries, rather than the 1.2 volts or so, that Ni-Cads and NiMH (if readily available then), offered.Here is a webpage, covering some of these computer types:https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4952673/laptops-powered-by-aa-batteries-seriouslySome examples:QuoteQuoteThe following, might be a bit too small, to count as a proper laptop, more of a hand-held device:QuoteQuoteMore recent/modern example (2009):Quote

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 12:07:23 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 28, 2024, 09:47:14 pmI don't think he's criticizing Apple at all. I had to reread what he wrote twice to be sure.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 12:19:03 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 29, 2024, 12:07:23 amI reread it multiple times before responding, and reread it a few times again after your reply, and Istillcannot find a way to parse it as anything other than criticism."Most brands do not get repeat customers if they produce crap" is the claim, and Apple is listed as anexception. Apple has above-average brand loyalty (=lots of repeat customers), and the claim would predict that a company that produces good products should have lots of repeat customers. If Apple is anexception, then that means they have lots of repeat customersdespitemaking crap. And the rest of the post seems to be criticizing them.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 01:27:05 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on December 27, 2024, 08:41:49 pmAre you sure? Do you recall the make/model? Even in the early days of PC-compatible laptops, models which used standard Alkaline primary batteries were extremely small in numbers.The only examples I can think of were the Amstrad NC-series (although the NC100 and NC150 were notepad style machines rather than notebook/laptop) and the early HP Omnibook series. Most laptops used NiCd, then later NiMH rechargeable batteries, before eventually moving onto lithium packs. Some early laptops may have used AA batteries for CMOS backup, but not to operate the machine.I realise there were a lot of handhelds, like the Apple Newton, electronic organisers (Sharp, Casio etc...), PocketPCs and alike, that did use regular primary batteries, but those are a different category of machine.As for longevity, if you took care of your batteries and discharged/recharged them properly, they would easily last 10+ years.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 01:34:13 am
content: I recall some rechargeable alkaline batteries approximately 30 years ago that advertised having the full 1.5 volts.They were branded 555 and were blue in color, they required a special charger. A normal charger would damage them.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 01:39:26 am
content: Quote from: Psi on December 29, 2024, 01:34:13 amI remember them too. There was a period where rechargeable Alkalines were a thing, but they didn't last very long. They went under all different brands. Some Jaycar stores still sell them:https://www.jaycar.com.au/rechargeable-1-5v-alkaline-batteries-to-suit-xc0346-48-weather-stations/p/XC0343

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 01:47:20 am
content: A lot of battery powered portable devices had a socket for an external power adapter to avoid draining the batteries when you were close to a power outlet. It would be easy to mistakenly think this was a charging socket.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 06:52:25 am
content: Note that market for "1.5V rechargeables because NiXX has too low voltage", while it sounds great to a layman, is bogus.Devices that die at 1.2V are unusable with normal alkaline cells, too, because 1.2V is completely normal operating voltage for an alkaline cell. To get even nearly full capacity out of alkaline cell, it must be discharged down to 1.0V. And with cutoff of 1.0V, you also get full capacity out of NiXX. Only starting voltage is lower with NiXX.In other words, devices that use AA cells and don't work with NiXX "because of low voltage" are broken by design and work so poorly even with alkaline cells that they were lost in normal market evolution, where customers abandon crap products and favor those that work.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 07:16:05 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 29, 2024, 06:52:25 amThat's true, but that's unfortunately many devices on the market. Yes, they should be able to operate down to 1V per cell, or even 0.9V is still a safe cut-off voltage. I bet many EEs have never bothered opening a datasheet for alkaline batteries, though, so they work on (false) assumptions. Looking at a datasheet for a typical AAA alkaline (Duracell), there is approx. 38% of the total charge left between 1.2V and 0.9V (depends a bit on the current draw of course, but that gives a rough idea). Up to consumers, I guess, as long as they were informed.... to consider whether losing 30-40% of battery capacity is a good idea if that makes the engineers' life slightly easier.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 07:49:52 am
content: As I wrote in another similar thread here, I used to recharge carbon-zinc cells (AAAs) for use in a TV remove. I had the guts of a NiCd charger that I mounted in an electrical "handy box" with a 2-AAA cell holder, a power switch and LED, and a switch to short the cells to discharge them. It worked pretty well, and I never had any problem with leakage.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 08:34:51 am
content: In theory, yes, a device should still work with 1.2V rechargeable batteries instead of 1.5V alkaline. In practice, not always, and this is not necessarily because of bad design.- The 1.2V nominal is for new rechargeable batteries, but after some months/years of use, the internal resistance start to increase.It happens that I've measured the last month many AA/AAA recheargebles. Here's the typical voltage when discharging wear-out rechargeables (some have seen 10+ years of use). While they still can hold 50-70% of their nominal mAh, the internal resistance is too high, which makes the voltage stay at less than 1.2V (at a typical discharging I of 0.2 nominal C).This chart is for 3 of AA Tronic 2300mAh batteries, age 10+ years. Usable, but not in a good shape, less than 1.1V, and in the second half they show less than 0.9-1V:This is for some 5+ years age Varta 2100mA discharging, better, a little above 1.1V most of the time:And this is for brand new Tronic 2500mAh batteries manufactured this summer, much better but still under 1.2V at room temperature:Typical failing example for rechargeables, a photo camera might work with them, but will show low battery or even shut down when trying to use the flash, because the high current needed to recharge the flash capacitor will make the voltage drop under 1V per cell.- Another problem, both NiCd and NiMH have memory effect. (NiMH has less of it, but still has some memory). Unless they are fully discharged once in a while, in practice they might have a much shorter running time than expected.- Yet another problem for rechargeable batteries is the temperature. In cold weather they behave very poor (high internal resistance, lower than nominal capacity). The device they try to power might not even start at freezing temperatures.- And yet another (sideways) problem might be the self-discharge rate. Where alkaline batteries might need replacing once a year or even rare, a rechargeable might need to be recharged every 3-6 months, depending on its self-discharging rate.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 08:57:32 am
content: I remember it used to make my 2x AA torch noticeably brighter for longer having 2x 1.5V alkaline than 2x 1.2V nica

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 11:37:57 am
content: Quote from: Psi on December 29, 2024, 08:57:32 amThat's odd because I've had the opposite experience with old incandescent torches, which I found to be brighter with Ni Cad. The only difference is the light would go dim very quickly with Ni Cad and slowly fade with alkaline.Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 29, 2024, 07:16:05 amYes, I've had similar problems. I have a smoke alarm which starts beeping when the voltage is just below 8V.Also note that alkaline cells have have an open circuit voltage as high as 1.65V, when fresh, but I've seen products which take four cells and have 6.3V capacitors. I suppose it's not so bad with aluminium electrolytic capacitors, but tantalum is too much of a risk.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 04:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 28, 2024, 11:54:31 pmI still have a working HP95LX. Nice little thing (unless you grafted a Nokia cellphone onto it to make it mobile!).I had an Omnibook 600 (and later an 800). Nice little thing, could run Transport Tycoon continuously from London to San Francisco using only two rechargeable battery packs; made that commute tolerableI also really liked the pop-out mouse (especially compared to red "clit" buttons), but that must have been suboptimal for left-handed people.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2024, 11:57:11 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 29, 2024, 11:37:57 amIt depended on how powerful the lamp was vs what the cells could supply. NiCa does very well at high currents giving less voltage drop under load than other cells did, so you got more light even though the cell voltage wasn't quite as high.But with a lower current lamp the extra 0.3V different between rechargeable alkalines and NiCa dominated the brightness.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 12:40:47 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 29, 2024, 12:19:03 amIt's not a serious criticism of Apple, I own an iPhone, iPad and watch and have bought several over the years (though never new - I think new Apple hardware is a bit foolish tbh). But the incentive clearly exists for a company like Apple to build obsolescence into their products because they have unusually high brand loyalty compared to other manufacturers. Take for instance something like "Apple Intelligence". It will not come to older devices like my iPhone 13 despite the processing being cloud based, because Apple can decide to not support those older devices as they will not generate new revenue for them. So effectively they have made those devices obsolete - in one small way - by deliberately not supporting a newer feature on those devices. (And in many cases, hackers have managed to enable these functions; older iPhones have been updated to newer iOS releases, Siri functions enabled, etc.) But that's Apple's prerogative to do so; they don't make any money from the base software on iPhones, so why should they give new features away for free?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 12:49:51 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 30, 2024, 12:40:47 amSo… because Apple has strong brand loyalty (which, I will add, may be theresultof their design decisions, not because of fanaticism), it gets held to a higher standard than its competitors?!?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 01:10:41 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 30, 2024, 12:49:51 amWhere did I write that? I just wrote that their high brand loyalty allows them to take more liberties when it comes to building in obsolescence through software. You can argue whether it is moral or not independently of that.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 01:23:04 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 30, 2024, 01:10:41 amWell it is what you argued in the original criticism. How come you criticize Apple for only providing 7 years of phone software updates, when everyone else struggles to deliver 3 years? That is a huge double-standard.Perhaps those 7 years of support are a reason Apple has such brand loyalty.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 07:47:08 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 29, 2024, 11:37:57 amAre you sure and how did you measure?Smoke alarms use integrated circuits that do ESR analysis on they battery, basically with short current pulses every now and then. This is crucial to their operation because the only thing which really consumes power in a smoke alarm is the alarm itself, and it only activates in real emergency, and ithasto work. But batteries have two orthogonal aging mechanisms, capacity fade and ESR increase. In very low power application like smoke alarm the ESR increase dominates. But open-circuit voltage of the cell is relative to loss of capacity, you can't see the ESR increase with the 10Mohm or 1Mohm input impedance of the multimeter. You need to measure under load to decide if the battery is decent for the smoke alarm. And this is exactly what smoke alarms do.I found this out 20 years ago as a smoke alarm started beeping low battery alarm and instead of just replacing the 9V battery, I measured it with a multimeter and it was readingmore than 9 volts, so I was quite confused first. Yet, replacing with a new battery fixed the issue. Took some thinking to figure out what is happening.You really need to measureunder loadto see what is the actual voltage at which the device stops working.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 11:32:22 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 30, 2024, 01:23:04 amI didn't criticise Apple for providing 'only' 7 years of updates because it was not a criticism!!I simply pointed out that some companies have very high brand loyalty and this allows them to build other forms of obsolescence into their products, like not supporting new features on hardware that can support them, because they don't sell iOS.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 07:21:12 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on December 29, 2024, 08:34:51 amMemory effect is overblown. Yes, it technically exists, but it wasn't a major problem except after many cycles with equal discharge depths. The problem with NiCd batteries and incomplete discharge was that at the time they were popular, the cheap charging circuits that most home users bought were slow chargers that were strictly timer based. They would charge at something like C/10 for 8 hours then reduce to a maintenance trickle charge at C/50 or something like that. If you didn't discharge fully before putting them back in the charger, they would overcharge. At these charge rates, NiCd batteries are more tolerant of overcharging than other chemistries in that they won't explode, but it does cause degradation. That's why the advice was always do to a "complete" discharge, to avoid capacity loss from overcharging on cheap chargers.NiMH battery chargers by contrast almost always use peak voltage detection and/or temperature rate of rise. This allows accurate charge termination, and in turn both faster practical charge rates and avoids dependence on the starting state-of-charge.QuoteAlkaline batteries also lose performance when cold. In both Alkaline and NiMH, performance starts to degrade at 0C and has lost significant performance at -20 C. It's not really a significant difference. If you want cold weather performance, lithium primary cells are generally better.QuoteLDS NiMH (which are almost all the cells on the market now) last for several years. They still don't have the shelf life of an unused alkaline cell (7+ years), but it's enough to not really be a problem for the vast majority of cases where there is any significant load. I even use NiMH batteries in remote controls. There are still a few non-LDS cells on the market. However. they are now the specialty item targeting high power devices like camera equipment.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 11:42:54 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on December 30, 2024, 07:21:12 pmI've replaced all my batteries from AAA through to D cells completely with Ikea AAA and AA NiMH cells (for C and D size applications, I use Panasonic battery adapters; Part No. BQ-BS2E8SA and BQ-BS1E8SA respectively). To charge, I have a Powerex MH-C980.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 01:52:16 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 30, 2024, 11:42:54 pmI found those battery adapters to be of less use than I expected, since many devices taking C and D cells expect the full size positive button of a regular D cell, rather than just the smaller AA size button. Some spring contacts slip right over an AA button without touching it.There are, however, genuine NiMH C and D cells, from Tenergy, for example. I have bought their Centura brand and found it to work reliably. The downside is that it takes a long time to charge an 8000 to 10 000 mAh D cell (charging current is limited to about 3.5 A, if you even have a charger that can do that).

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 02:07:01 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 31, 2024, 01:52:16 amThese particular adapters have their own terminal to mimic the size of the D cell. (the C-cells don't, they literally just "pass through" the terminal on the AA cell itself, via a hole). The AA positive terminal connects internally to the D-cell adapter itself.The only reason I went with adapters was because: (1) I only have one product that uses C cells (that's a kitchen scale). I don't have any use for D cells at the moment, so rather than holding onto batteries, might as well just have adapters on-hand. (2) I don't have a charger capable of charging C or D-size cells, and I probably won't buy one anytime soon as their use is rare.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 02:27:18 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 31, 2024, 02:07:01 amThat's interesting. I might have to look at them again.QuoteI don't have a charger for C or D cells either. What I do is put them in series and charge with a constant current from a bench supply. If I use a low enough current I can just leave them for several hours and watch the voltage until they are charged.I bought the C and D cells to use in lanterns in case of a power outage, for which the high capacity is a definite advantage.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 02:48:01 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 31, 2024, 02:27:18 amThat's the obvious trade-off, particularly if you're in an area where long power outages occur, the higher capacity might be worthwhile. However, you could also argue that buying more AA batteries would give you the same capacity, but whilst they are not being used for emergency power, you can cycle through them in other devices.I have 2 containers, one which contains fully charged cells, and another for used or depleted cells. Once I need to change batteries, I go for a fresh set and the empty ones go into the box for charging once I have accumulated enough to throw them on the charger. That way everything eventually gets used and exercised.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 03:40:01 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 27, 2024, 08:57:18 pmWell, I don't appreciate being called a liar. The battery pack said "rechargeable alkaline" right on it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 04:38:41 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 23, 2025, 03:40:01 amNobody called you a liar. You can be mistaken about things, and that's OK. Perhaps it isn't what you thought it was.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 11:04:55 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 23, 2025, 03:40:01 amWow.You pop up after almost a month, and make a comment like that.Looks liketwopeople's prior assessment is correct:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rechargeable-alkalines/msg5763473/#msg5763473https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rechargeable-alkalines/msg5763541/#msg5763541

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 11:36:34 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 23, 2025, 03:40:01 amOK then dude. Send us a picture of this mythological battery. Till them it's your word against ... well, battery science, for one.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 11:57:23 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 23, 2025, 11:36:34 amWell..Lithium is alkali metal...And he is right. There was, some years ago, a period theremarketingterm "Rechargeable alkaline" was used. I have no idea how it mapped to real life/science.It didn't last long though...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 12:23:35 pm
content: As has been established, rechargeable alkalines did exist, but really, no one made a laptop with such a battery in it, because it wouldn't have survived more than 10-20 cycles in use. They were primarily sold to consumers as a cost-competitive alternative to non-rechargeable alkalines where you could get around 10 uses from the cell before it was disposed of. Each use could expose considerably less capacity, like the second use would be 70% of the capacity, then 50%.It only made sense as a battery in disposable form because you wouldn't be able to commercialise a product where the battery pack had to be thrown away in its entirety and replaced less than a month later, when other battery technologies existed with far better cycle life.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 01:24:54 pm
content: I recall having a Toshiba laptop with a non-chargeable battery in the early 90s. I can't remember what chemistry is was, only that I always ran it from the mains because it was dead when I bought it second hand from an auction.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 01:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 23, 2025, 01:24:54 pmIntended as being non-rechargeable (single use) or just failed from too many charge cycles/being too old?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 01:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 23, 2025, 11:36:34 amIt is valid to call the OP's bluff, but just indicating the manufacturer and model would be sufficientMight be difficult to take a photo of a laptop that's been thrown out long ago, e.g. my OmniBooks 300 & 600.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 01:49:59 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 23, 2025, 01:26:59 pmSingle use I believe, although it's possible I'm mistaken, as it was over 35 years ago.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 06:21:44 pm
content: I can entertain the notion that some company did in fact have a rechargeable alkaline battery for a laptop-style computer back then. Yes we can agree that rechargeable alkaline is not a good technology, but it could hypothetically be economically viable. Some people may be stuck thinking of rechargeable batteries as we know them in contemporary products... that is, an internal, permanently installed, and generally irreplaceable part of the whole. This is the way modern cell phones, laptops, Chromebooks, etc. treat the battery. It wasn't always like that. Think back to your oldest Nokia cell phone (if you are over 40). It had a battery door, as did every single other battery powered product, rechargeable or not.Imagine this: the hypothetical laptop-type device runs from (for example) 8 AA primary/disposable alkaline batteries, or you can buy the rechargeable pack. Those 8 AA's might cost approximately (example) $8. Single use. Imagine that the company offered its rechargeable pack for $24 (3 times the cost of standard alkalines, just for the sake of argument). Maybe they promised 10 to 20 charge cycles. Let's say a person could actually get 12 cycles from it. Then it costs the end user $2 per cycle. That sounds like a bargain compared to $8 for disposable batteries. If the cells were properly vented (like the "Pure Energy" brand rechargeable alkalines I remember from back then) and the pack itself was sealed well enough to mitigate any eventual leaks, then the concept could work. This rechargeable battery is not designed nor intended to last the entire life cycle of the product. It is a consumable item, but it still saves the customer money. Just consider that this is a possibility.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 08:04:33 pm
content: Along these lines, I could imagine a device that was alkaline or rechargeable. Either you put alkaline batteries in it, or you put the (optional) rechargeable battery pack in it. The rechargeable battery pack could easily have been NiCd as was common early on.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 09:08:13 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 23, 2025, 04:38:41 amOr perhaps you are wrong.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 09:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 23, 2025, 09:08:13 pmYou're the one making an extraordinary claim and therefore has to carry the burden of proof.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 09:25:05 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 23, 2025, 09:08:13 pmThe person making the claim is the person that has to justify it. Attempting to reverse that is a classic troll tactic.I claim (1) the moon is made of green cheese and that (2) only 363 angels can dance on the head of a pin. You prove those wrong.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 10:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on January 23, 2025, 11:57:23 amThe electrolyte in NiCd and NiMH is also alkaline of course (KOH).... Although I doubt the OP will concede that it was either of those.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2025, 11:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on January 23, 2025, 10:00:26 pmI only concede to facts. I know my alkaline batteries.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 12:07:28 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 23, 2025, 11:00:22 pmIn that vein...I concede only to facts. Which manufacturer, which model?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 12:08:01 am
content: I suggest we leave OP to his land of faeries and mythical battery technologies that don't exist.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 12:12:21 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 24, 2025, 12:08:01 amFTFY.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 01:18:45 am
content: *sigh*How is it that some people manage to derail a thread about batteries?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 07:34:04 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 24, 2025, 01:18:45 amIn what way is it being derailed? The OP has made an unusual claim, and the respondents (with varying degrees of politeness) have requested some evidence to back this claim. Since the OP refuses to provide any evidence, the respondents are rightly sceptical (with varying degrees of politeness) of the claim.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 11:18:30 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 23, 2025, 11:00:22 pmAll you said is that you saw a laptop battery pack with alkaline written on it when you were a child. How do you 'know your alkaline batteries' in this case. Did you disassemble it and examine the cells? Did you measure an individual cell voltage, charged and discharged? I think not.What Idothink is that it was a NiCd pack and you have no credible evidence to the contrary.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 11:38:19 am
content: Apparently, there use to be Alkaline Rechargeable Battery Packs, for electronic items.Here is a 13.5 Volt example (from here:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264325490939):It is probably from the 1950s to 1970 era, for things like small and portable TVs.But internet sources, seem to say that they stopped making those batteries, around that time. So, too old for laptop computers, which didn't appear, until later, as I understand things.EDIT:I accept, my calling it a 'pack', as in battery pack, could be disputed. As it could simply be called a battery, as in PP9 9V etc.But it at least seems to show, that at least at some point in time, in the past. Such 'packs' or batteries, did exist.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 12:33:38 pm
content: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-04633-1_10https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_alkaline_battery

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 12:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on December 30, 2024, 07:47:08 amI measured it with a meter with a 10M input impedance, but I don't buy into the battery being dead due to high impedance. I managed to use it to power a high power mechanical buzzer., which is louder than the smoke alarm, without a problem. Next time, I'll do some more in depth measurements.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 01:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 24, 2025, 12:46:50 pmIIRC (for this entire post), the smoke alarms, are considered somewhat, or fully safety critical, which is more important than trying to squeeze the last drops of life, from batteries.There is some type of specification, the smoke alarm is trying to meet, once the battery, potentially (excuse the pun), will no longer be highly likely to reach, then that is what the smoke alarm considers the battery 'spent', at least as regards smoke alarm use.The specification, is something on the lines of the smoke alarm must be able to keep the siren/alarm buzzing, at full (or near it), volume, for at least some continuous time period, such as 45 minutes, and/or needs to regularly beep, at some interval, such as 45 seconds, between very short warning beeps, for a minimum period of time, such as 2 months (as the residents may be away, on a long holiday or something), to warn users that the battery needs replacing.So, the battery, needs to have quite a lot of capacity and reasonable ESR (max current drive ability), to meet those tight specifications.Hence, a battery which has just caused a smoke alarm to trigger its low battery alert, may have a reasonable amount of life left in it, for other applications.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 01:11:31 pm
content: I used to design smoke alarms, it's a surprisingly short period. At the point where the low battery indicator is first present, the alarm must be capable of sounding for 4 minutes only.It is acceptable in the documentation to say "only use Energizer such-and-such batteries", and have the product give a substantially worse battery life, or even not perform correctly, if other batteries are used. Even if that battery is really hard to get hold of or expensive. We used Energizer L91 to get the best life (Lithium AA).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 01:51:20 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 24, 2025, 01:02:11 pmQuote from: tom66 on January 24, 2025, 01:11:31 pmHow dare you shills defend planned obsolescence and a conspiracy between smoke alarm manufactures and battery companies to make people buy their expensive brands, when the battery is perfectly good and I can get them from AliExpress for much less.In case you've missed it, this is satire. ☺ Yes, I've been involved with safety critical design, although not smoke alarms and can see why they're designed that way. It's no problem, since I reuse the battery in another device such as my kitchen scales.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 02:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on January 24, 2025, 12:33:38 pmAs has been repeated many times in this thread, nobody disputes the existence of rechargeable alkaline batteries. What is being questioned is OP’s claim of having a laptop computer that used them in its battery pack.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 03:45:34 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 24, 2025, 01:11:31 pmIt has been the case in the past that if you asked the local fire service in your town (in the UK), they would provide free replacement fire alarm batteries. The would happen especially if you asked for a fire safety review. I don't know if all areas would do this, or if it still happens, but I have known it in the past.

author: Hr_Satch
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 06:07:40 pm
content: Yeah, thanx Connecteur,I did tried this also, but they burst, there is No Vent valve for pressures to escape.and recharged Alkaklines are only good for Low power applications like remote controls.I tried this with sort of a voltage amplitude limited pulsating AC-wave.Transfo + Bridge -very small Cap - and followed by a Lm317 set to around 1,65Vdc.Nowadays, there exists a genius solution in the form of Panasonics ENELOOPs rechargeable NiMh'sThey nearly go upto almost 1,49Volts close to the Alkalines end voltage ;-?Just for your interest, will lookup some schematics I collected during those years ofCharger ideas for Alkaline recharge attempts, . . . But their on an other Kompioeter.To my experience, bad batteries are those that charge up almost instant to their end voltage.Good batteries are the ones that slowly charge-up, and don't heatup too much.I just try to avoid unchargeable batts, and use in almost all my appliances rechargeables.Even a DMM goes for months on a single charge.I have Legion of them.And if the 9V rechargeable isn't just enough :a small trick for those 9V rechargeable batts would be to put one AAA-cell in series with them.The 9V rechargeable goes only upto 8,4Volts Nominal [only 6 to 7 internal cells, depending Mnfctr]Just adding one additional rechargeable AAA raises this end voltage upto 8,4+1,43=approx.10Volts.You just need some additional space, inside ;-?a 9V bat is just a pack of small 1,43V max. cells in series.This only goes up for low power & small charging appliances, to avoid unequal charge distributions.Now Spring is kicking in overhere, so time to hunt for some foods in the Fridges

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 06:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 24, 2025, 01:18:45 amSo the troll OP reported posts and you didn't feel like it would be a good idea to read the thread at all?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2025, 10:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 24, 2025, 06:48:23 pmAren't the moderators aware of his posting history?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/will-ac-power-distribution-become-obsolete/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/the-future-of-grid-power/

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2025, 07:31:13 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 24, 2025, 10:26:18 pmHe's just a 250-post basic troll. This forum has a lot of traffic, moderators here are well known not to have very good context understanding. They operate based on reports and place a lot of trust on the report itself.This pattern has been seen a thousand of times:* Press "report to moderator" button* Moderator (usually Simon) pops up, reads nothing, and writes random comment or deletes a random postI'm not suggesting getting more resources into better moderation, but I could really suggest the opposite, stop this theater and simplydo nothingif you have no time to do it even semi-properly, i.e., just start ignoring reports other than simple spam.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2025, 06:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 23, 2025, 08:04:33 pmThere were definitely some early portable computers and other electronics that could take single use alkaline batteries or had a NiCd battery pack option. NiCd worked well here because a crude trickle charger circuit is so simple and cheap that it could be included with the device. By putting it in a pack (which was just a shrink wrapped bundle of AA NiCd cells) you avoided problems with mismatched cells.You could certainly put rechargable alkaline cells in any device that takes AA batteries, but mostly this approach was uncommon by the time rechareable alkalines were popular. However you wouldn't make a dedicated pack out of them due to the short lifetime and finicky charging required.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 03:48:08 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on January 24, 2025, 07:34:04 amBecause it started descending into a back and forth tit-for-tat in a way that I would expect from a group of high school girls, not grown-up engineers. I'm not pointing the finger at any particular person either.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 04:33:45 am
content: Back in the 90s, the most popular phone seemed to be the Motorola StarTAC. It had a nickel metal hydride battery (or something similar) but several of my friends said their batteries were only lasting about a month. I believe it's because they were using 'fast chargers" which were intended only to be used briefly to give the battery a quick boost. When they left them permanently connected, they would overcharge the battery and ruin it. I doubt they had the charge controllers that are ubiquitous today in nearly every rechargeable device.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 04:37:04 am
content: I get that most people haven't heard of rechargeable battery packs for laptops.But incredulity is not falsification, and what I had was a laptop with a rechargeable alkaline battery pack.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 06:16:15 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 04:37:04 amWho made that laptop?, model number, details such as CPU etc.When was this, exactly?What did the battery pack look like?, how big was it?What further details can you give about it?

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 08:31:27 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 26, 2025, 06:16:15 amWho the hell knows? I got rid of it over 20 years ago. You may as well bark at the moon.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 10:22:14 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 08:31:27 amFinally, a response.Q.E.D.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 12:54:32 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 04:37:04 amIt is practically impossible to prove a negative. But you could easily prove the existence of such a laptop by finding documentation of it: an old ad or datasheet or review or something. Even without knowing the model name, you would find some sort of evidence that somebody once made such a thing.*Youare the one making the extraordinary claim, so the onus is onyouto prove it.Meanwhile, the characteristics of rechargeable alkalines (low cycle count, poor high-current performance) make them unsuited to laptops, making it exceedingly unlikely that anyone would select them for that application.*I did search (Google, archive.org, Google patents) and came up with absolutely nothing supporting the existence of such a laptop. I did, however, find evidence supporting its nonexistence. The company that developed rechargeable alkalines, Battery Technologies Inc of Canada (founded 1986), had the following item in theirFAQ on their website in April 2003:QuoteIf they had already produced laptop batteries, they would clearly have said so.Regardless, they never got the chance to make any, because April 2003 is also the same month the companywent out of business.(The persons involved in BTI alsomoved onto other companies in 2003.)Anything later than this is too late for your timeline of having disposed of it 20 years ago, so BTI was responsible for the entire rechargeable alkaline technology during the laptop era through 2003. (Prior rechargeable alkalines were only on the marketbriefly in the early 70s, much too early for any laptops.)So I’d call your claim “busted” absent actual proof of its existence. Whatever your laptop used, it wasn’t rechargeable alkaline.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 01:36:19 pm
content: Once again, the fallacy of incredulity attempting refutation.It was definitely an alkaline battery pack. I took it to a battery specialist, and they offered to rebuild it for me. There is no question what it was, outside your mind.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 01:45:42 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 01:36:19 pmIf they offered to rebuild it for you. Then why didn't you go ahead and get it fixed/renewed, especially given your (implied from the original opening post of this thread), interest in 'green credentials', rather than disposing of something, still viably working.Also, normally the original supplier/manufacturer, of the laptop, would be a good (or best), source of new/fresh battery packs. How come, you didn't use that option?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 01:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 01:36:19 pmIt is far, FAR more plausible that you are simply misremembering the type of battery used in that laptop. If that isn’t the case,prove it.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 02:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 26, 2025, 01:45:42 pmI sold the computer to a computer repair store guy. He was quite surprised that the battery still worked on a laptop that old. What is your problem?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 02:52:12 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 02:21:48 pmHave you ever made, a powerful (enough) battery, yourself at home?Was it really easy?

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 05:10:27 pm
content: Technically, a "battery" is an assembly of cells. I have made several batteries by spot-welding together cells, usually to replace faulty batteries. I have a UPS that had a lead-acid gel-cell battery that had failed. I replaced it with a battery of 18650 lithium cells. The capacity before was 9 mAh. With the lithium battery it was 33 mAh.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 05:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 05:10:27 pmThanks for your answer.The reason, I said what I said, was because. There seem to be a number of 'these' threads, as in this actual thread.In some case(s), the starting (opening) post, is identical or extremely similar.In other case(s), the words are different. But on reading the opening (and early) posts, by the OP, it would seem to be pretty obvious, that they are actually the same thread, as well.In the earliest or earlier (as in years ago), version(s), the OP (thread starter), seems to indicate, that they have built such batteries, themselves.They also seem to say (and/or indicate by titles and information lines), they are heavily involved and/or interested, in battery technologies, and/or especially rechargeable Alkaline cells.I have NOT read all the available information, so may be missing some of the details, and/or misunderstanding what is going on.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 05:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 01:36:19 pmQuoteI'm trying to imagine the circumstances where you would take an old laptopwith a working batteryto a battery specialist.https://youtu.be/QXrPLIF4S2U

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 05:50:54 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 02:21:48 pmEveryone, literallyeveryone, remembers the brand name of a device that they owned, if they are of a technical mindset.Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 05:10:27 pmImpressive. That UPS must have had a really long run time.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 05:57:51 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 05:10:27 pmWhat UPS has a capacity of just 9mAh? A single 18650 lithium cell a greater capacity than that. Even assuming you're talking about Ah, not mAh, 9Ah is still pretty small.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 07:41:29 pm
content: Don't you guys realize this is modern art, surrealism? We are all part of this piece of art. The more we hear "details", the more obvious it gets, like:* Remembering battery type of your first laptop with 100% certainty, with no idea whatsoever about anything else of that first laptop* This magical rechargeable alkaline pack still working after many decades, despite the fact everybody knows alkaline cells leaking in < 5 years,* This magical computer being recently sold, yet still no remembrance of any details about the computer,* 9mAh UPS battery,and so on.Other threads by this OP are all similar. It's surrealism.And I don't agree this is derailing the thread. This thread is an artistic installation. My observation of it being art is part of the art itself, hence not derailing. We are all workingforthe OP here. "Report to moderator" was used by the OP also as a part of this installment, with the expected result, it produces the usual EEVBlog moderator response which only underlines the artistic effect.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 08:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 26, 2025, 05:36:22 pmImagine this then: He wanted to see it, and he bought it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 08:52:16 pm
content: Let's start dropping, links then.Anyone else noticing similarities here?QuoteQuoteSource for above quotes (bold done by me):https://www.reddit.com/r/batteries/comments/qzpykn/what_happened_to_rechargeable_alkalines/Quote from: Connecteur on December 27, 2024, 08:41:49 pm

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 09:11:15 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 08:05:20 pmDid it have one of these batteries by any chance?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 09:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 08:05:20 pmWho bought it--the battery specialist or the computer repair shop?

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 09:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 26, 2025, 09:12:32 pmNow you're just trolling.Face it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2025, 09:51:52 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 26, 2025, 09:46:59 pmYou seem to have admitted or hinted, to being possibly concerned with the EEVblog forums, reactions, to a previous thread.Quotefrom here:https://www.reddit.com/r/batteries/comments/vuect8/the_freezer_treatment_works_for_old_lithiumion/Which is a user that seems to have created, almost exactly this thread, elsewhere.Are you disappointed with us, and trying to get your revenge?

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2025, 01:20:01 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on January 26, 2025, 09:51:52 pmHow exactly could that be possible?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2025, 01:50:30 am
content: Quote from: Connecteur on January 27, 2025, 01:20:01 amThere does seem to be a tendency (and a rumor that we do this here), to jump in with (often) technical engineering, criticism/disagreements/arguments, against what some people create threads about.It can come across as being unsympathetic, harsh and even nasty.Even if that, is NOT intended.In theory, a person could be annoyed by such apparent arrogance, even if it is not really the case, if you can see and understand it, from an engineering perspective.But some people, can take it the wrong way.E.g. Free-energy (especially, initially disguised ones), threads. Created by OP's (posters), who will absolutely ignore all arguments, against a video, purporting to demonstrate free-energy, and it is mind and soul destroying, 2 hours long, and so scientifically incorrect, it can be very tedious to watch, even for a minute or so.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2025, 12:12:46 pm
content: Giving the benefit of doubt...Could the "laptop" have been something like this?It looks like it uses C cell alkalines, so might have been a worthwile target for rechargable alkalines.