EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 01:57:04 am
content: Also, nice like shout out to Dave around 7:45

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:03:58 am
content: Much like with the Amazon situation, I have to wonder if trying to steer the major companies using legal means is really the way to go since they have made it 100% clear the direction they want their products to go in in terms of repairability, security and the concept that their customers actually own their products.However I don't know much in the way of alternatives. About the best I'm planning to upgrade to is a Google Pixel loaded with GrapheneOS, or something lower end with LineageOS.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:07:23 am
content: And to provide the typical wet-blanket response that nobody asked for:Except that the replacement batteries are shit and the brand batteries are just expensive re-branded shit.Tell us this. When they say mandate, does that mean the entire phone battery supply or just a port with a removable battery? Can you still produce a phone with a fixed battery provided you provide removable battery? And does it extend all the way down to, say, a RTC battery?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:08:59 am
content: But I invested in all the disassembly tools!

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 03:10:50 am
content: No fan of governments/ groups of governments mandating anything, but forcing phones to have replacabale batteries is very sensible indeed, it should not have taken them so long to start insisting on it. However they probably should go further to, force phone manufacturers to have a fully standardised form factor for pouch cells, the way AA is a standard for alkaline and NiMH cells, and 18650 is a standard for hard cased lithium cylinder cells... Its actually very hard to find two pouch cells from different manufacturers with the same dimensions and capacity, makes it tricky to mechanically design things when you can't be sure you'll always have the same cell type available, let alone with the complexities phone manufacturers add by having different connector pinouts and contact shapes even on the same sized cell. A proper standardisation would be very welcome, and that way you'd be able to find decent quality replacement batteries made to that standard form factor from many decent generic manufacturers and the same sort from the official manufacturer, rather than the curent situation where there might be just one sketchy sounding manufacturer making copies (or sketchy manufactuers making doubly poor quaity copies then fake-marking them as official brand) of that weird shaped cell which the official manufacturer hasn't made for years. Would be helpful beyond hpoens too, if puch cells staretd to have proper standard designs it would make it much easier for designing things like small RC cars much easier(obviously high powered packs for higher performance RC are far bigger than phone related standard would help standardise).

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 03:19:21 am
content: I wonder what the tradeoff will be? Smaller capacity batteries? Lower quality so the manufacturer can sell more replacements?I do agree though, the whole water restiveness argument is moot. There were several phones with removable covers/batteries that were water resistant, if not water tight. I had a Motorola Defy back in the day which was fully submersible. How many people got their old Nokia's wet and they were perfectly fine (although they weren't meant to get wet).

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 03:21:47 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on June 19, 2023, 02:07:23 amHave you looked on E-bay or Amazon? I've been able to buy batteries for ALL of my devices on there for a fraction of what the OEMs want for them. Replacement batteries for my DLSR camera were about $60 from Olympus but about $6 from Amazon. One website tested them and found that they actually held a longer charge than the factory batteries. Factory batteries, like the factory tires on new cars, are shiit anyway.But yeah I agree. The GOV needs to mandate that all batteries be a standard form factor and not just some standard battery in a custom propriatory shell that cost 20x as much.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 04:14:34 am
content: You're maybe missing a major point here.I don't think there's anything in that mandate that says the phones should be priced identically to what they were before. In other words, it might not be a bad deal for manufacturers.They'll sell new phones at a +30% premium with all the free green advertisement that goes with this.But let me know if I missed it in the mandate, I'll be pleasantly surprised.News at 11.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 04:23:01 am
content: I disagree with the legislation and Rossmann's arguments.I replaced the batteries in old iPhones with $20 kits that included both the battery and the tool. It takes me an hour. They last just fine.Regarding replaceability, for the iPhone anyway it's a few screws, the tape that is removed using by pulling on the special tab, and then it comes out. It actually isn't that hard do to.Here is a technical detail that I would like to see addressed:The battery in an iPhone (not sure about Android; perhaps they are similar) uses a couple strips of double-sided tape to hold it to the aluminum back panel. This provides both a secure physical bond and, more importantly, a securethermalbond.With high usage or high charge-rates those phones can get hot. The heat from the battery is primarily dissipated to the back case. If the battery is replaceable, it would likely (due to other EU safety standards) require an enclosure of some type. This will require a low thermal-resistance path to the case. Certainly this could be done with a battery thermally potted in a thin aluminum housing, which is then thermally connected to the case using something like a compliant thermal pad. What will this cost compared to having a shop do it? How much thicker will it make the phone?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 05:58:37 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on June 19, 2023, 04:23:01 amIt is not hard to do for you and me, and many of the readers on this forum. But it is beyond imagination for 98% of the larger population of phone users. So there clearly is room (and need) for improvement.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 06:13:42 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on June 19, 2023, 04:23:01 amthis was true for older phones (and iphones) it's not true anymore for actual iphones.the battery becomes a nightmare to replace, even for people that have the skill AND the tools to do ityou need special tools to heat the device and actually be able to unglue it.and you must glue the device back once you changed the battery.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 06:54:35 am
content: They should go even further with power tools and domestic appliances like vacuum cleaners having a standard off-the-shelf compatible battery pack. Then you could go to the shop and buy a replacement from about 5 or 6 different ones. No more throwing away perfectly servicable tools (or batteries) for want of an easy reasonably priced and readily available replacement.You wouldn't need a drawer full of chargers, or a bench covered in different chargers.Ultimately I'd like to see EVs with replaceable battery modules so that when a secondhand vehicle is sold you can upgrade the very expensive and probably no-longer available battery to get another 10 years life. EVs ought to have longer life due to lack of a complex mechanical drivetrain.With what goes on with ink cartridges, toner cartridges, razor refills. and any number of replaceable wear items like mower blades, filters and so on, mandated standards could have been done 50 years ago. If a drill bit can fit a drill made 100 years ago it shows it can be done.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 08:55:13 am
content: Without looking at the video, would two screws (of a standard type) and a normal PCB connector be acceptable for a 'removable' configuration? It would allow manufacturers to create thin, water-resistant phones (no need to build e.g. plastic clipping backs with complex seals) whilst complying with the spirit of the law.Generally I'm in favour of giving private industry a 'push' in the right direction. It's worked well in the past, see for instance vehicle safety requirements. ADAS cameras are now standard, they used to add 1,500 euros to the cost of a car but because they're fitted to practically every medium size car upwards they have plummeted in price. They're only fitted because Euro NCAP won't give you five stars if you don't have lane departure and pedestrian avoidance.Quote from: wilfred on June 19, 2023, 06:54:35 amYes! This! Why does every power tool maker create their own 18V battery system? I should be able to use a Makita battery on a Bosch drill if I damn well want to.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 09:40:21 am
content: I'm sure you can use an adapter if you want, but in any case I don't think power tools are really a problem. If the battery I happen to be using on my DeWalt drill fails, I can just buy a new one and swap it in seconds. The battery isn't such an integral part of the drill that I have to throw away an otherwise serviceable drill, nor is it so expensive that it makes sense to buy a new drill kit including a battery anyway.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 09:41:31 am
content: I don't know how they do it, but 500 pages rambling about batteries.https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237_EN.pdfFrom the looks of it their main focus is the growing EV and other e-mobility markets which is a rampant problem with a lot of high capacity batteries with a short lifetime. Sometimes irremavable or flammable.Quote from: page 177So, that applies to phones right, right?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 10:00:53 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on June 19, 2023, 09:41:31 amNo, that exemption doesnotapply to mobile phones. It does not exemptall"products that collect and supply data as their main function", but only those where continuous operation is required for data integrity reasons. Gotta brush up your Legalese...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 12:29:11 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 19, 2023, 09:40:21 amThe advantage of a universal battery system would, however, be that you could buy a good OEM third party battery. Bosch might sell a cheaper battery for your Makita drill, and it'll still last a decent amount of time because Bosch have a reputation to keep.It would also help if systems go obsolete. A friend of mine is trying to buy old batteries for their Bosch battery lawnmower made in 2008, but Bosch doesn't support the slightly weird 22V system it used any more.Admittedly this kind of thing is a lot harder to standardise upon, you'd need a range of battery options for professionals and high power tools, and no doubt some tools would need entirely proprietary batteries due to special applications (I'm not going to put an 18V battery in my battery-powered hot glue gun, after all.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 12:55:50 pm
content: Why would you want battery operated tools anyway? For construction workers that have no outlet available it may make sense but for around the house a corded tool is easier. A couple of years ago I bought a Makita electric screw driver with a cord. I find that way more convenient than dealing with batteries all the time. And it has more torque while being lighter to handle.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 01:17:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 12:55:50 pmI don't understand. Why *wouldn't* you want a battery operated tool, all else being equal? My drill, impact driver and jigsaw are all battery powered. I'm usually just doing short jobs, so it's enough to keep the second battery on the charger if I expect the first to run out. And the impact driver has more than enough torque. That way I don't need to worry about where I'm plugging it in, tripping over the cord, or keeping the cord out of the way of anything.Sure, I wouldn't want a battery powered SDS hammer-drill for going through brick or the like*, that kind of has to be mains powered for endurance, but a lot of power tools work fine on batteries for 'home DIY' levels of usage and given their proliferation in the professional market it seems like tradespeople agree too.*That said I know an electrician who has one because he's not sure if the job-site will have power available when he needs to drill. But I can imagine their endurance is not great given my one pulls 1200W at full speed. I guess buy a few spare batteries if you expect to need that.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:09:46 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 19, 2023, 05:58:37 amI don't see this as a problem. Almost nobody that I know (except me) would replace the battery in their car themselves, or even change the oil. How about watch batteries? Everyone takes them somewhere that will do the job while the wait.I don't know actual numbers, but I'm willing to bet that more cracked screens on smart phones get replaced than batteries. Should the government mandate that touch screens be user replaceable too? I hope not; it'll drive up the price of phones.Honestly, I don't know what the issue is anyway. I typically keep a phone for two or three years and have never had to replace a battery.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 19, 2023, 06:54:35 amRyobi already did it, you can use a new battery on a 15 year old drill or an old battery (if you somehow still had one that works) on a new tool.Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 12:55:50 pmYou answered your own question, extend that to any situation where it's bothersome to run a cord. That said, I really want to see a lot more combo corded/cordless tools.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 12:55:50 pmFor the same reason that I haven't bought a desktop computer in at least 15 years.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on June 19, 2023, 02:09:46 pmThat's the issue right there.Discarding a phone after only two or three years is wasteful. Why do you replace it after such a short time? I have not observed rapid technical progress over the past decade which would justify that. Weakening battery performance or lack of software upgrades seem the likely candidates -- and both are entirely due to the manufacturers' unwillingness to support their products through a decent lifecycle.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 02:43:34 pm
content: You make a good point. I typically replace phones that often because they're beat up by then and need replacement. I don't like those thick rubber cases since I carry it in my front pants pocket.Phones could be made more durable so as to last perhaps twice as long, but then they would cost twice as much.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 03:41:38 pm
content: "two screws (of a standard type) and a normal PCB connector be acceptable for a 'removable' configuration?"Definitely ought to, always more maintainable than things which try to have a tool-less snap fit connection. The sort of people who don't own even basic screwdrivers are the sort of people who'd never even imagine thinking about fixing (or doing anything at all) anything for themselves.Whilst at it, ban snap fit connections on the housing of electronic devices, screws everywhere so you can open and close them without risking shattering them.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 05:25:44 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 19, 2023, 03:19:21 amIf you listen to the manufacturers, the result will be dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on June 19, 2023, 02:07:23 amThat is my experience. I have three phones with removable batteries, a Samsung from 2020 and two Alcatels which are newer, and in no case does the manufacturer sell batteries so I have to rely on questionable third parties.Of course manufacturers use the excuse that people will buy questionable third-party batteries causing fires and whatnot, while not supplying the correct batteries themselves.Quote from: Tomorokoshi on June 19, 2023, 04:23:01 amMy batteries can be replaced by using a fingernail inserted into the notch in the rear cover to remove it.Quote from: tom66 on June 19, 2023, 01:17:20 pmMy corded power tools are more powerful, run continuously, and do not require a costly battery and charger. I have many cordless power tools, but I only rely on them for light duty tasks.Quote from: ebastler on June 19, 2023, 02:28:24 pmUnfortunately even if the battery is replaceable, there may be good reason to discard the phone.I have changed the battery in my *unlocked* Samsung Galaxy XCover Pro, however fucking AT&T blocks firmware updates to their unlocked phones. By law they must unlock their phones so that they may be used with other carriers, but nothing requires that they do not cripple them.So great, phones will be required to have user replaceable batteries, and the manufacturers and carriers will find some alternative way to enforce planned obsolescence.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 05:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: John B on June 19, 2023, 02:03:58 amYes, it absolutely is. The consumers have absolutely no way of swaying large corporations in matters like this. Think of the USBC mandate solving all kinds of issues with chargers. I still have these multi-adapter cables with 11 different eds for Alcatel, Nokia Sony, micro, mini Iphone and other connectors. It was an absolute mess. I have a phone, it's like 3-4 years old and the only reason to replace it is the battery. Disassembly is super inconvenient with a heat gun, removing glue and so on. As near as 8 years ago we were still making phones that had replaceable battery.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 05:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 19, 2023, 01:17:20 pmThat is the problem right there: you use these machines too little to always have a full battery when you start the work. So you'd have to prepare the night before by putting the batteries on the chargers and hope the chargers can keep up with your job. Especially when batteries start to wear out (after 5 years or so due to under-use) you'll see that needing batteries is becoming a nuisance. Been there, done that. No more battery powered tools for me! A tool with a cord just works immediately when you need it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 06:32:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 05:44:59 pmNot really. I use the tools probably once every few weeks, and the batteries keep plenty of charge. Maybe your experience with older Li-Ion batteries or NiCads has skewed your opinion, but a good modern Li-Ion stored at 80% charge should still have 20% charge left after about a year, when stored at room temperature.As for a replacement, well, that's just a fact of life with batteries, but I can get a genuine replacement for £30 - hardly the end of the world given the batteries power multiple tools. For what it's worth, the drill batteries are going on for five years old now, and I have no complaints with their longevity yet. I'd love a more universal system but for now they're fine.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 06:36:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 05:44:59 pmIf you don't use them professionally (as I suspect is the case for most people here), that is unlikely to ever happen.Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 05:44:59 pmAs long as you don't accidentally cut the cord with that tool. Or stumble over that cord and cut something <important> from yourself or others. Or somebody else stumbles over it in the exactly wrong moment of time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 06:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on June 19, 2023, 03:10:50 amReplaceable or removable? I would like phone batteries to be replaceable, as in the phone is held together by screws and the battery is not glued in place and can be replaced without great difficulty or significant risk of destruction of the phone. I don't want to go back to the old clunky snap user removable battery packs though, that results in a phone that is more bulky than necessary and less water resistant. In general I don't think politicians should be legislating stuff like this though because most politicians are technologically inept and have no clue about engineering.I've replaced batteries in older iPhones a number of times and found that to be acceptably easy, I think the latest was an iPhone 4 though so I don't know what modern ones are like.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 06:54:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 05:44:59 pmI haven't found this to be an issue. Even my old Bosch NiMH powered drill batteries will hold a reasonable charge for several months, I've had them rebuilt once so far because I like the drill so much. My reciprocating saw, string trimmer and leaf blower all use Li-ion packs and those hold a charge indefinitely. Yes batteries can be a nuisance, but cords are FAR more of a nuisance. It was a happy day when I got my cordless blower and didn't have to drag an extension cord around on the roof, being sure not to trip over it, having it snag on the corner of shingles and roof vents, or worse, something on the ground forcing me to climb down off the roof to untangle it then go back up and finish cleaning out the gutters and blowing leaves off the roof. Same with my drill and saw, what a nuisance to drag a cord around in an attic or crawlspace, it tangles, it snares on things, or it's not quite long enough. A cord on a string trimmer is a pain, sometimes it's not long enough and when it is you still have to constantly be careful not to drag it over fragile plants and go un-snag it from shrubs and landscaping. Corded electric lawnmowers are even more hassle because you have to be careful not to mow the cord. I gave away all of my corded tools years ago except for my big circular saw, power miter saw, rotary tool and router. I hate cords, they're a hassle every single time I use the tool, batteries are only a hassle on occasion. Cordless has been a vastly superior experience for me, I can't imagine ever going back.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 06:55:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 19, 2023, 12:55:50 pmBecause I want to be able to use my drill/screw driver/jigsaw in the garden, in the attic, on the roof or in my boat without having to find an extension cord and a working outlet. Because I hate standing on a ladder mounting plasterboard to a ceiling and having to make sure all the while I do not trip over the bloody cord every time I move.I find the expression 'best invention since sliced bread' very much applicable to cordless electric tools. And since the NiCad/NiMH batteries made way for LiIon I find that I am able to use these cordless tools forever. They just keep going between charges, do not lose their charge while sitting on a shelf for months and they do not seem to wear out at all.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 06:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 19, 2023, 05:40:29 pmThere are only a couple of different connectors on phones now for around a decade, Apple has their lightning connector and everything else is micro USB or more recently USB-C, and all of these cords terminate on the other end with USB A or C. The government didn't need to mandate anything here, the market already settled on something and as usual the government is a decade behind. At some point in the future when USB-C is long obsolete it will still be mandated by these laws which will still be at least a decade behind.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 07:39:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 19, 2023, 06:58:31 pmI'm not familiar with all of the devices that tszaboo mentions with odd connectors for charging. Everything handheld that I've purchased in the past decade or so has had micro-B, and then increasingly C type USB connectors for charging. It took me a long time to realize that the EU mandating USB C was in reality all about forcing Apple to toe the line. Is there a similarly unspoken motivation behind the replaceable battery mandate?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 07:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 19, 2023, 01:17:20 pmActually, I have a battery SDS specifically for drilling brick - it's a lot more capable than a combi, no more duplication of bits, and I don't have to drag a giant case and 25m extension any time I want to drill a hole. I wouldn't go running a 40mm TCT core with it, of course, but I wouldn't go drilling a 250mm diamond core with my corded SDS, either.The only people who find corded tools more convenient for light duty are the ones who leave them in a drawer 360 days of the year - which is where my corded SDS lives. And my corded combi. And my corded circular saw. And the corded angle grinder. All of these I have cordless alternatives for, all of which have been out and about several times this month just for odd jobs at home.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 07:44:42 pm
content: Not sure how (why) the discussion drifted to the relative merits of corded vs cordless hand tools, but the only important point I see is that the choice is entirely mine. No overfed lawmakers are mandating how the manufacturers builds their line of tools. Maybe it's a US vs EU thing, but I find it baffling.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 07:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 19, 2023, 06:58:31 pmThe EC has been pushing for a common charging standard for a long, long time now:https://www.engadget.com/2009-06-29-nokia-apple-rim-and-others-agree-on-micro-usb-phone-charger-st.htmlIt is certainly possible that the market would have converged on USB without political pressure and the threat of legislative action (I have doubts). You can also argue that they have mostly succeeded already and the mandate is not necessary. EC probably would have preferred that but the "soft" approach will eventually lose its power if you let a big player (Apple) get away with doing their own thing and never follow through on your threats.In any case, the narrative that they are somehow "a decade behind" and just jumping in on this is frankly preposterous.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 08:43:47 pm
content: Even with micro USB or USB-C, there are multiple charging standards. Some of my devices are just dumb and try to draw 2 amps from either connector, while my phone and 18650 charger look for the QC standard, and my laptop only works with the PD standard. So now we have fewer physical connectors, and multiple incompatible charging standards.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 08:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on June 19, 2023, 07:44:42 pmI agree with this for the most part, but don't think the US will be immune to that. It's coming to the US too. The days of historical american freedom are IMO counted. But that's another story.Regarding the discussion, I don't think this is a drift. Actually one of the main current issues with rechargeable batteries is that we just put them everywhere just because it's trendy and looks cool, even in gear than doesn't even require to be cordless to begin with. This has a gigantic environmental and financial cost.Then the point becomes, if we are not able to act responsibly but just consume stuff as if we were kids, then we end up getting what kids get when they misbehave, orders and punishment.You can't act a a kid and expect to be treated as an adult.That aside, obviously some devices do require rechargeable batteries, like smartphones. The (relatively) short lifetime of current Li-ion batteries is a concern, although one could argue that by the time the battery of a typical smartphone needs replacement, usually said smartphone has itself become "obsolete" by the software ecosystem. So the underlying problem is much wider than just batteries.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 09:36:55 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 19, 2023, 06:58:31 pmYou might be mistaking the cause and effect. They have been talking about this for more than a decade, originally it was microUSB they were targeting:https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization-bodies-formalize-micro-usb-cellphone-ch.htmlThey standardized because the initiation of the EU Commission, not by themselves.Long time ago, you could find Nokia BL-5C batteries in more than 50 different phones. Nowadays they seem to fart out 12 different phones every season with a slight difference in screen size (only 6 inch and up of course), with slight variation in the chipset and camera. Man camera bumps are so ugly nowadays, and it's only getting worse.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 09:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: woody on June 19, 2023, 06:55:16 pmYeah, batteries make sense for power tools. I usually draw the line wheter or not I buy something with a battery (Bosch, so it's compatible with the rest) if I use it less than 1x a year or it's a power hungry tool like an angle grinder or a hammer drill. They exist with a battery pack, but I would rather have a 1000 W power drill than something underpowered. Those 18650s top out at about 80W each, and that's at 10C rate.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 10:13:37 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on June 19, 2023, 06:13:42 amI’ve swapped batteries in a half-dozen modern iPhones (X through 12) for family members, buttons in my XSMax, and a few screens (X through 13).The heat source I used was an entirely ordinary hair dryer. The replacement glue/gaskets usually center with the part or are about $0.80 from China. I order a stack of them to cover every phone my family uses.IMO, it’s not even difficult, let alone “nightmare”. At worst, it’s slightly time-consuming (a battery might take me 30 minutes start-to-finish).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2023, 10:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 19, 2023, 07:39:58 pmMy house is made of bricks that are approximately as tough as hardened diamond. I have spent a good 15 minutes drilling one 15mm hole with the 1200W SDS. When my electrician friend came over, he offered to use his DeWalt SDS with a 4.0Ah battery to get the 6mm^2 SWA through for the EV charger. After the first battery was exhausted I just suggested we get the circuit in the garage up and running and drill carefully with the corded SDS. That still took a while, but no battery to run out.If you live in a house made mostly of engineering brick, rather than a 1930s build, you may have better experiences, but for me, a corded SDS is about the only corded power tool I'll have.This probably should be the last diversion about power tools, we are way off topic.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 05:24:36 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 19, 2023, 05:25:44 pmWho you gonna call? !!

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 06:37:49 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on June 19, 2023, 10:13:37 pmI'd rather not carry my lab with me in outdoor trips when I have 2 additional batteries with me.For some reasons I prefer them over a 0.5 Kg power bank.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 06:47:31 am
content: Any way you look at it this law is a clash between EU Stalinists and US Trotskists.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 06:52:50 am
content: Quote from: rteodor on June 20, 2023, 06:47:31 am

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 11:41:07 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 19, 2023, 08:54:24 pmHaving visited the US for the first time recently, I get the feeling that the US focusses on different areas but has just as many rules that could be perceived as overzealous. Like California where the restaurant menus need to show the calories of every portion. Or intersections with stop signs.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 12:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 20, 2023, 11:41:07 amSTOP! Accelerate violently for 400 feet STOP! Accelerate violently for 400 feet STOP! Accelerate violently for 400 feet STOP!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 01:09:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 20, 2023, 11:41:07 amThat's a good thing, it gives an incentive to not go overboard with added sugars and fats as is infamous for pretty much all of the US.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 02:20:48 pm
content: Well, if this conversation is about cordless tools, ten I want to say that I love my electric lawn mower. It seems to be as powerful as the Honda gas mower it replaced, but is quieter, light in weight, and obviously requires much less maintenance. If this isn't the future, then I'm not sure I want to go there.As for mandating replaceable batteries in phones and similar, I recognize that moving forward lithium ion batteries will be a big problem that needs to be dealt with, both in terms of manufacturing and recycling. If the mandate is intended to help handle and recycle used batteries, then I am all for it, at least in concept. On the other hand, if the mandate is about adding a convenience feature then I am less enthusiastic.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 02:34:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 20, 2023, 11:41:07 amThere is considerable variation between and within the individual states of the United States. For instance some areas are aggressively replacing intersections that have stop signs and traffic lights with roundabouts.On the other hand, we have the most lawyers per area and the most lawyers per capita.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 02:55:34 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 20, 2023, 02:34:41 pmYes, that seems like the fundamental difference in compliance philosophy: In Europe, and especially in Germany, it is "Regulate every single step a company may take." While in the US it is "Let them do as they please, and sue the hell out of them if they get it wrong."

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 03:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 20, 2023, 02:55:34 pmFixed that for you.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 03:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 20, 2023, 03:09:33 pmThat's not correct to my knowledge. Negligence will be quite enough to get you into hot water.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 04:27:02 pm
content: Anyone else remember all of the fake cellphone batteries that littered the market when batteries were replaceable? No? just me?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 04:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on June 20, 2023, 04:27:02 pmMaybe that was a regional thing? Batteries for Nokia, Siemens, Sony Ericsson, ... phones were stocked by all the major electronics chains here, both from the original brands and from well-established independent accessory manufacturers. I don't recall "fake" batteries being an issue here.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 05:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on June 20, 2023, 04:27:02 pmIt is not just you. A battery (likely not original) in my wife's phone decided to inflate and emit some smoke. But this was a long time ago.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 06:49:20 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on June 19, 2023, 06:13:42 amYes, you have to replace the adhesive because it’s how they achieve the waterproofing. (Like every waterproof phone.)The adhesives aren’t there to artificially make repair harder, but to make phones waterproof (which has dramatically reduced the chances of water damage), as well as to eliminate rattles and vibration/resonance. It’s a pain in the ass to deal with, but it’s there for good reason.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 06:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on June 19, 2023, 07:39:19 pmLoads of early mobile phones had proprietary charging connectors, flip phones and feature phones up through 2010 or so, but this hasn't been an issue for a long time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 06:56:02 pm
content: Quote from: rteodor on June 20, 2023, 06:37:49 amI have a power bank that fits in my pocket and will recharge my phone numerous times. I keep a larger one in my backpack that will recharge the phone dozens of times, even that one is not very heavy. Best of all it doesn't just charge my phone, it will charge my bluetooth headphones, Kindle reader, and any other USB devices, it has enough power that I can share with friends and charge their devices too. Way easier than carrying around a bunch of spare batteries.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 07:00:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 20, 2023, 11:41:07 amCalifornia is a nutty place, Prop 65 that results in cancer warnings on absolutely everything is the poster child of this craziness. They even banned ordinary screw base light sockets which now has the effect of forcing people to use obsolete compact fluorescent bulbs instead of modern high efficiency LED bulbs, or to use sketchy adapters from China or bring in proper light fixtures from other states.Calories on menu items are convenient though, we have that here, I don't know if it's required but I find it useful. Stop signs on intersections too, how could you drive safely without those? Uncontrolled intersections are fine in residential neighborhoods where traffic is very light but it would be very dangerous to have a street like this intersecting a busy arterial without a stop sign.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 07:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 20, 2023, 07:00:27 pmCalifornia is a nutty place, but I see restrictions on unapproved screw base light bulbs being sold in California, I don't see restrictions on screw base light sockets. (And I see thatthis plain socketis for sale in Home Depots in California, which suggests they aren't actually banned.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 07:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on June 20, 2023, 07:06:52 pmMaybe something has changed? I know for a while houses all had to have light fixtures with those GU-something or other bipin sockets for CFLs, they never really caught on anywhere else. Maybe it specifically applied to built in fixtures in new houses, I don't know the specifics of the law but it's possible they had the sense to get rid of it eventually.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 08:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 20, 2023, 06:51:04 pmExactly. Reminds me of an old saying... something about closing the barn door after the horse has gotten out.Next there will be mandates about indoor gas lighting having approved chimneys and plow horses receiving proper nourishment.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 08:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 20, 2023, 07:16:03 pmCalifornia is a nutty place. Actually, with the deep bifurcation splitting the country neatly in half, I'd say all of America is nutty.But, most laws like this apply only to new construction. When there was talk about outlawing gas stoves it raised hysteria in some of the population that the government was going to come and take their gas stove away. In reality, the proposal would have applied only to new home construction. Under the proposal, people that already had a gas stove would be able to continue using it, and could even replace it with another gas stove when the time came. Some people are stupid. I know that to be the case in America and assume it to be true everywhere else.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 08:32:08 pm
content: To quote Dijkstra:Quote

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 10:21:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 20, 2023, 07:00:27 pmEr, well, there's the whole 'yield' concept, which is what you all do anyway because coming to a complete stop over and over again for nothing when you have enough visibility to see the curvature of the earth is totally pointless.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2023, 10:26:50 pm
content: I see the California-cancer warning label on lots of products that are exported from the US.I keep thinking to myself "Wow, California is a dangerous place for getting cancer. Who would ever want to go there??"

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 12:47:09 am
content: Quote from: eugene on June 20, 2023, 08:11:48 pmWhether it applies only to new construction or impacts existing homes makes little difference to me. I love my gas stove and will accept no substitutes, and if I ever choose to buy a different house it had better have a gas hookup. I can completely see why people were upset about this law, whether the government comes and takes their gas stove, or makes it so when they decide to build their custom dream house somewhere down the road and are not allowed to have a gas hookup makes little difference, the outcome is the same. Also outlawing gas stoves in new construction has the effect of greatly reducing demand and turning them into a specialized (very expensive) item for replacement uses. Not to mention the whole thing is completely stupid, natural gas burns very clean, it's plentiful and relatively cheap, and if you want heat, it makes so much more sense to burn the fuel right there in your home than to generate electricity and use resistance elements. You can't cook on a heat pump.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 12:51:46 am
content: Quote from: John B on June 20, 2023, 10:26:50 pmThat's due to Prop 65, which was a law created on good intentions but extremely poorly implemented. As the law is written, there is no threshold under which something is declared safe, so even the most minuscule quantity of some substance gets it flagged as being there. The list of substances is absolutely huge and covers a wide range of stuff, much of which is not really even known to be harmful. On top of that, you can be penalized for not applying the label to a product that contains some substance on the list but there is no penalty for applying the label to products that do not, so generally the safest approach is just slap the warning on absolutely everything just in case. A warning that is on everything tells you nothing, it is completely useless.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 12:57:52 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 20, 2023, 10:21:02 pmWe have yield signs too where it is not readily obvious who has the right of way. But stop signs are most often used where a lightly trafficked street intersects a much more heavily trafficked street, you don't want to make everyone on the busy street have to slow down and yield at every intersection, so they're allowed to just blast through and anyone wishing to enter traffic must stop at the stop sign and wait until it is safe to proceed. Usually there is not sufficient visibility, that's the issue. At least where I am is very hilly and heavily forested, the roads twist and turn due to geography, there is absolutely nowhere anywhere close to me that you can see the curvature of the earth except for the coast where you can look out over the Pacific Ocean. Failure to come to a complete stop at a stop sign is an offense, you'll get pulled over and issued a fine if a police officer sees you do it. People get killed by someone running stop signs, I know a guy who lost a leg because somebody ran a stop sign and t-boned him on his motorcycle.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 01:16:33 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 21, 2023, 12:51:46 amInforming people is a good thing - although here it seems extreme and thus, pretty useless - but OTOH, by constantly exposing people to the idea of almost anything potentially causing cancer, I would think that it could cause constant, if low-level stress to people and possibly even end up actually triggering cancer for some.If you leave in constant awareness, and fear of some deadly disease, that's not all that great for your health.Just saying.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 01:26:17 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 21, 2023, 01:16:33 amThat's why I say that the law was based on good intentions, I agree, informing people is good. But when the list of things you are informing them "may cause cancer" is so broad, contains zero context and is written such that it's safer to just slap it on everything then it's not really informing anyone. For a warning to be useful it needs to be selective, warn people when something contains more than a certain threshold of substances KNOWN to be truly dangerous, that could be useful. A warning that applies to everything doesn't really inform you of anything.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 01:31:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 21, 2023, 12:51:46 amRelated in poor outcomes from an incompletely thought-through policy is the new FDA policy in 2023 requiring extensive cleaning to avoid cross-contamination of allergens between products. Compliance is expensive and fraught with peril so companies elected instead tomake the allergen an intentionally-added ingredient, thus allowing them to list it on the label and avoid the cleaning and risk of accidental cross-contamination.So now a policy ostensibly intended to protect consumers from an allergen is causing them to have a harder time avoiding that allergen and still feeding their family.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 02:25:21 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 21, 2023, 12:57:52 amThat doesn't need a stop sign, and the through road doesn't need to slow down to yield whenthey aren't the ones with the yield sign.QuoteIn my admittedly relatively limited (and yet apparently somehow more comprehensive) personal experience on US roads, I've yet to see a single stop sign which made sense as a stop sign. Many of them I can tell if it's clear or not a good five or six seconds before arriving, to such a degree I could entirely avoid slowing down if it weren't for the unnecessary obsession with stop signs.By the way, when you ask questions like "how could you drive safely without those", you might want to look at the relative safety of, uhm.. every other developed western nation. Yes, your roads are a real bug bear of mine.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 09:15:39 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 21, 2023, 02:25:21 amNo, the yield sign is on the lightly trafficked side street, drivers on the busy street have a right of way and can just blast through.I didn't know it was an obsession, everywhere I have ever driven in the US and Canada have stop signs, but if you think you can do better, maybe you should move here and show us all how it's done.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 09:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 21, 2023, 09:15:39 pm*sigh*QuoteMake up your mind.QuoteWell there's a grand total of one stop sign I know of in my town. I have to think hard to think of examples of stop signs, because they're only needed in very specific places.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2023, 10:00:11 pm
content: In Chicago, approximatey 3,000,000 population, a flat area with a very Cartesian street grid, stop signs are ubiquitous.The scale factor for the grid is 100 = 1 furlong (800 = 1 mile).In normal areas of the city, every 400 units is a "through street" that normally are controlled with traffic lights.The other "side streets" normally have a stop sign when they encounter a through street, and often when they encounter another side street.A good design change was eliminating "3-way stop" or "4-way stop" signs under the octagon, substituting "all way".The property density would not allow roundabouts at side-street to side-street junctions, and would be difficult at through-street to through-street junctions.I once did some work in Telford (Shropshire), which many British subjects told me had too many roundabouts for their taste.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 05:57:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 21, 2023, 09:15:39 pmWell, it does seem that Stop signs are often used in the US where a Yield sign would do in Europe. I believe the rules for traffic signage in the US also state that Stop should only be used when needed for safety, but the threshold for that seems lower in practice.And then there are the "four-way stop" intersections, which we don't have at all in Europe. Over here, we would either rely on the default "priority to the right", without any traffic signs; or have a sign-posted priority road intersecting a road which has to yield (but typically not stop). Of course I am biased since that's what I am used to, but I do consider that the better approach: Minimize signage clutter by default, and define a clear priority where the default rule does not work well.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 08:44:41 pm
content: Four way stop intersections are typically used where two heavily trafficked roads intersect, often in the vicinity of other intersections where only the less trafficked side street has stop signs and in the other direction cars can just blast through without slowing down. There's not really any perfect solution, but I don't see what we have as being particularly problematic, it's one of those things where it's always been done this way and if you try to change it now it's going to be a disaster because people have already learned that if there's no stop or yield sign they can just blow through without looking. We have started getting some roundabouts around here in the last decade or so and they do work pretty well but as was mentioned there are space constraints that make them impractical as a retrofit in many places. The signs are cheap and unobtrusive and they've been around for a century or so and everyone just expects them to be there. There are uncontrolled intersections that have no signs but that's typically low traffic low speed residential streets in the suburbs and you do occasionally have problems with people mistakenly believing they have the right of way and blowing through, causing an accident.I don't have a particularly strong feeling over which system is "better" but it does annoy me when random twits in other places imply that we're all a bunch of idiots for not using the system they use. I guess it's just a subtle form of nationalism.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 09:23:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 22, 2023, 08:44:41 pmAnd nobody but you is talking about uncontrolled intersections. And you can't just blow through anything without looking.QuoteLet me just quote you again:Quote from: james_s on June 20, 2023, 07:00:27 pmIt does annoy me when random twits in other places imply we're all a bunch of idiots for not using the system they use.Here's an example of a four way stop which need not be a stop of any type:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@35.7299002,-78.3515073,3a,90y,190.73h,87.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEeU7zX7bJ4pstVlYt-LEsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttuAnd nearby, here's a two way stop which need not be a stop of any type:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@35.7236995,-78.3480657,3a,90y,233.28h,97.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seTxyY_cdm-8lnhTjpO7Nsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttuThis is before dealing with the absolute madness which is stop signs every few hundred feet in grid layout cities and even modern suburbs. You simply can't keep a car moving no matter how little traffic there is on the roads.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 09:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 21, 2023, 12:51:46 amMost regulations related to food content define specific allowable amounts of a huge range of weird things. People are grossed out by these regulations. "You're allowed to have fly wings in food products!". Well, its not encouraged, but zero is not something one can test weekly in a lab for compliance.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 22, 2023, 09:31:09 pmI once had to correct a co-worker who wanted to put a spec of "0" on an electronic parameter.I said that was not a valid spec (like +/- 0.1% or +/- 0.1 mV), but a "pious wish".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:20:22 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 22, 2023, 11:08:03 pmSo, he specified 0 +/-0.1%?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:28:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 22, 2023, 09:31:09 pmThat's quite right, but not what james was talking about exactly.He was precisely pointing out that no threshold at all was defined, and as I take it, expressing that the result was to flag absolutely anything detectable. Which in turn is arguably counter-productive as the inability to determine what's a problem and what isn't that comes with it makes it pretty much useless.I would just reply to james with the following: 1. For many susbtances, we actually don't have a clue what the safe level is. If regulation states that some given level is safe, and it turns out that it isn't, then it has misled people, potentially with very bad consequences, 2. Although a minority, there are some people with very weird allergies that can get triggered even from just traces of some substance. If a company fails to mention its presence, even in insignificant amounts, while it provably has the ability to detect it, then affected people can sue for not having been informed.So as to the "zero", that's a slightly different matter.While there is no "zero" in the physical world indeed and having zero as a target for some known value is absurd, here we are talkiing about the presence or absence of some substances inside a product.That's related, but a bit different: obviously current, state-of-the-art lab equipment can't detect given substances under a certain concentration, and not detecting them doesn't mean there isn't any.So to be completely rigorous, we should list all possible known substances in the universe (or at least on Earth) and put a '< xxx' (with xxx the limit of detectability with current equipment) rather than omitting them altogether, but obviously it would not be practical.So when a given substance is not listed, it should just be assumed that it means "below the threshold of detectability with current equipment", if a higher acceptable threshoid has not been defined.All obvious, but just to say that from a regulatory POV, as long as a minimum safe threshold hasn't been defined, you either list the substance if it's detectable (with the currently used equipment with performance defined by said regulation), or omit listing it altogether.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:33:59 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 22, 2023, 11:28:06 pmWhat I said is exactly what James is talking about. You can't have compliance with meaningless goals. Sane regulations have to set goals. If they turn out not to be as tight as is needed, they can be amended, but you can't comply with zero, or something unstated. You can only devise a workaround, like listing pollutants as ingredients, or withdraw from the market.