4K Video Editing PC Build - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 08:46:47 am
content: Dave builds a new i7 7820X based 4K video editing machine into an old Fractal Designs dumpster case.Benchmark comparison with the old dual Xeon machine.4K GPU vs CPU renderingIntel Core i7 7820X X-series socket 2066 CPUhttps://amzn.to/2tvtgTZMSI X299 SLI PLUS MotherboardG.Skill Trident Z RGB PC4-24000 (3000MHz) DDR4 memoryhttps://amzn.to/2K4fGCkCooler Master Hyper 212X CPU Coolerhttps://amzn.to/2yxvS9CSamsung 970 Evo M.2 SSDhttps://amzn.to/2MSzh6nSilverStone 650W Essential PSUGTX-1050 GPUhttps://amzn.to/2MNYnmy

author: jazz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 09:52:00 am
content: Are you sure you want the CPU fan to blow the warm air INTO the case?Usually you'd want the warm air out of the case ASAP.The way you have it now, CPU fan and rear case fan are basically working against each other.It can be easily changed though by mounting the CPU fan to the other side of the CPU heatsink.

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 11:03:15 am
content: Your RAM isn't running at 3000Mhz, it's running at 2133. You need to go into the UEFI setup and select the XMP profile to enable it. You should find this in the Overclocking section.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 12:07:46 pm
content: You should have bought a Threadripper cpu... more future proof.Other than that, yeah, memory was set as default 2133 like another said.And... if you have a high core cpu, it would make sense to use the cpu to get higher quality encoding... the nv enc would use the video card to encode while the cpu would just waste time doing minor work like potentially decoding video, applying some effects like overlay subtitles over image frames, rendering images on the preview window in Vegas etc.May want to check into converting all your videos into an intermediary format that's known to be decoded in hardware for faster video preview and jumping in timeline, i forget now the format, i know it's been recently standardized ... that blackmagic codec , i forget the name.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 12:35:55 pm
content: 1. Yes, Threadripper 1900x is pretty much useless as it is still an 8 core CPU like a Ryzen 7 1700(x) or 2700(x), the only advantage is more PCIe Lanes and quad channel memory.And also Threadripper would make for a better video because you could show how to insert the CPU into the socket. Yes, that is special. And you need a screwdriver for the installation (According to AMD, comes with CPU).But you had to get at least the 12 Core (1920) - wich wouldn't be much more expensive but give you 4 Cores or 8 Threads more than you have right now. The 1950x is at around 763€ and has 16 Cores, the 12 Core 1920x is at around 526€The i7-7820k is at around 450€ so around double the Price of an older Ryzen 7 1700. The 2700 (NEEDs 400 Series AMD Board or a BIOS Update for wich you need an older CPU) is at around 275€ right now...2. Best Bang for Buck would have been a Ryzen 7 2700 or 2700x - with a decent board that one would be around 200-300€ cheaper than what you got.The i7-7820k is just eating electricity and runs hot as hell while only being an 8 core/16 Thread CPU - the same as a Ryzen 7 wich would cost almost half of that.3. I think storage could be important and a higher end Board could make sense - because of the m.2 Slots it comes with.What I'd do for a high end Video Editing thingy would be two 512GiB NVMe SSDs, maybe 1TB _AND_ an additional S-ATA one. With the latter only looking for good price/size ratio. A 128GiB is totally OK for it. It only needs to boot Windows. Working you should on the NVMe Drives. And use one as the Source and one as the Target. Like in the good old days with the 3 HDDs: One for Windows, one Source, one Target.4. THe Power Supply doesn't look too good either. I think its an old, group regulated thingy.For a System like that you should looked at 80plus Gold or better Platinum units with DC-DC (well, almost all do that) with an LLC-Resonant mode converter. The nominal efficiency of a somewhat decent PSU these days is 90% and voltage regulation is in the 1% area, 2% is considered not that great. And Ripple we are talking about something like 20mV or less on all rails with really good PSU...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 01:30:34 pm
content: Should have got the YUV RAM, not the RGB.YUV RAM is optimized for video editing.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 01:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 23, 2018, 01:30:34 pmDual ported YUV RAM. With full colour gamut.

author: TuxKey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 01:59:22 pm
content: @Stefan Payneyou do raise a couple of good points..i found the vid funny as hell.. every few min hearing Dave state “i don’t care” and “everyone is an expert” ahahah..guess he has bin bombarded with suggestions by now..My first thought was finally a subject where i don’t feel like the blond girl in the room.i have bin watching Dave for years now, with 0 to little knowledge about electronics.Just recently i started to get in to electronics and soldering. Because i wanted to be able to assemble my own mechanical keyboards..it’s about time being 42yr old..There is no such thing as the best computer.. it’s always a matter of use case..interpreting performance graphs is as much of an art form as knowing what your’e doing.being an it professional for the most part of my life one thing i can tell you nothing isas simple as it looks..points you made are valid..my thinking was along the same lines. Like“why is David comparing a 8-core cpu with the threadripper and not the ryzen 2700 or the 1700”When i saw the 1700 thermal profile vs performance a year ago i was so impressed and i still am.i do think the improvements to firmware mem management not to mention the iommu makes investing in the new 2700 worth it.i usually don’t meddle in the choices someone makes when it comes to hardware hahaha..Like Dave everyone seems to think they are experts.. i think there are levels of experts..like electronics there are the amateurs , the fancy hobbyists, and then there are does that make a living doing it work. ;-) wink,wink...in your case i think fancy hobbyist or it pro ...my compliments on your comments all valid points..CPU heat, and power supply all good points..Only thing i would add to someone ELSE looking to build himself a new rig.1) compare pricing AMD vs intel + look in to cooling performance core’s2) if you have specific needs concerning memory keep in mind AMD does a bit of fiddling when it comes to mem.it has to do with inter-core communication and the infinity Fabric.Basically the speed of the infinity Fabric is linked to the memory speed.Also i was told that the newest gen cpu’s are still going to be supporting Quad channel memso only two of the CCX modules are going to have direct mem acces the other two will have to go through the infinity fabric..my good youtube friend “Thinkering With Terrius” raised that good point in his Computex Keynotes..Really smart guy you should checkout his channel folks..(don't forget Intel has to deal with the same problems when it comes to core communication)3) power supply only settle for full modularity , and a good name brand..last thing you want is to have to fiddle with cables if you power supply fails on you.. Plug & play is the way to go..Just unplug the old send it for warranty work plug in the spare one you bought and rock on.. (happend to me once)..4) cooling nothing beats Noctua yah it’s more expensive but noise vs airflow .. stop waisting your $$ buy good fans..5) i have yet to find a batter case then the Fractal Design series.. i want silent and good airflow..only better options would be the high end customisable cases..Were talking several $100..only thing i miss is the use of nice 200M fans to run in front of the case..6) don’t bother with fancy cooling paste.. if you buy a high end cpu cooler from Noctua they have tested their coolers with the paste they provide..Don’t mess around with other stuff.. (it’s a whole world in it self don’t get lost in it..) being able to repast your cpu cooler every 5 yr or so would probably be of more benefit. not as much as you would think but still better then all the fancy compounds would give you..7) And finally only install Windows if you need it for a specific reason.. simple office work like word,excel,mail plus browsing can be done with a nice linux operating system..i’m a linux admin and like most Good linux folks we love to help people transition to OpenSource software..

author: woox2k
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 02:21:15 pm
content: I'm an expert and you're doing it wrong!Motherboard goes into the case first because it needs the metal shielding in the back when you plug other stuff in. Leaving it on the table makes electrons able to escape from the backside and possibly take some magic smoke with them.

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 02:38:13 pm
content: @EEVblogYou really should dial down the "i dont care" attitude. Yes there are those ppl who just want you to make decisions according to their tastes, but not all of the posts saying you chose the wrong thing('s) is written by them. BTW just done some digging around and it turns out a 1700X would've been better if we take into account the huge premium on intel boards.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 03:09:41 pm
content: Ryzen 2700x would have had very similar performance for fraction of the cost (heck you can even get a Ryzen 1700 for even less if you don't mind overclocking for similar performance). Basically you could have gotten a similarly performing Ryzen system Motherboard + CPU for less money than the x299 motherboard cost you.7820X does have twice the memory channels (4) but I recon with only 8 cores, memory bandwidth isn't tasked during encoding, because encoding is more CPU intensive than IO intensive in general.So you can build a much cheaper system (half the price or less) with very similar performance for the use case going with AMD. Even going with Intel's own consumer CPU 8700k would have made more sense.. yes two less cores but the core speed makes up the difference and you don't have to pay the premium for a HEDT motherboard.Or.. Threadripper 1950x.. would offer same 4 memory channels, which this time would actually make a difference since we're talking twice as many cores and threads. Threadripper would be almost twice as fast for about $200 extra.I would have gone with Threadripper, because this is exactly what it's made for. It's also a new platform with longer term support AMD introduced with their brand new Zen architecture.Perfect example of why AMD struggled for so long. Because even when they have superior products in every single way, people just don't do proper due diligence and research.

author: firehopper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 03:15:20 pm
content: this is just a whole big can of worms, everyone has their own favorite parts, we have amd and intel fanboys trying to push their own favorite part, just go with what you want dave, dont listen to them.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 03:16:39 pm
content: Quote from: firehopper on June 23, 2018, 03:15:20 pmnonsense, we're engineers. Threadripper is objectively a much better part for a video encoding machine.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 04:50:31 pm
content: In his use case, the intel platform would be better, and the main thing I would change on that system, is the heatsink. He should use at minimum, a NH-D15, especially since he will need to overclock that CPU to get the most out of it.GPU encode needs the fastest possible single threaded performance or the GPU encoder will get stuck waiting on a single thread to feed it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 05:37:56 pm
content: Hard to believe it takes 16 CPUs running at 60%+ just to feed the GPU with data.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 05:46:46 pm
content: 32 Core TR2 2990X is rumored to be out 3rd quarter of this year!

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 06:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: Razor512 on June 23, 2018, 04:50:31 pmHe's not using GPU rendering. Besides GPU rendering is limited (in terms of supported settings) and the lower quality of the final product compared to CPU rendering.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 06:12:36 pm
content: FAQ: How do I speed up rendering, exporting, or encoding?https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2122549

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 06:37:45 pm
content: If all the 4K encoding is done by the graphics card... would it not have been enough to upgrade the graphics card in the old machine, and get similar performance?

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 06:39:46 pm
content: Well, we've found the guy who LIKES Windows 10 anyway. Knew there was supposed to be one, but wasn't sure where.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 06:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: firehopper on June 23, 2018, 03:15:20 pmFanboys or not, 7820X + x299 mobo is a one piece of turd performance/system cost wise.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 08:28:17 pm
content: As for the PSU:http://www.realhardtechx.com/index_archivos/SILVERSTONE_Essential_series_ET650_B_650W_4.htmlIts as bad as it gets. 8pin Protection IC -> usually no OCP on any rail, no UVP on +12V either.Capacitor Choice doesn't look that good with JunFu/CapXonSince I don't think there is any AVL from Silverstone for Cost Reason, it is possible that some units might even have ChengX capacitors - like my CWT GPS-750V has...Quote from: Muxr on June 23, 2018, 03:16:39 pmExactly.And there is one thing I forgot to mention:In the early 2018 there was a huge bug found on Intel called Meltdown and the similar Spectre ones.The Problem is that the Fixes of that hammered the I/O Performance.And with those Bugfixes, you can't compare the performance from last year to now because they cost Intel quite a bit of performance.And to make it worse: More is in the Works...And with Video editing, we are talking about something that really uses I/O transfers...

author: aqarwaen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 08:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 23, 2018, 08:28:17 pmjust dont install meltdown and spectre updates.you probaly wont need theys patches unless you use darknet or unless you download pirated content.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 08:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: aqarwaen on June 23, 2018, 08:47:52 pmIs this even possible? There was a major update since then, so it should not even matter which patches were installed before.QuoteHow this is even related, all you need is some JavaScript running in an ad you see while you are visiting some website including eevblog.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 09:03:51 pm
content: 4K camera to go with the PCwill do more then your phone camera. a camera crew on a selfie stick.its ulterior compact with interchangeable lenses.https://www.idolcam.co/see specificationsChinese-American INVENTOR makes the perfect camera?

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 10:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 23, 2018, 08:57:35 pmIt is possible if you killed windows update. AFAIK only possible on anything below spy10....Quote from: wraper on June 23, 2018, 08:57:35 pmNoScript FTW...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 10:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 23, 2018, 08:28:17 pmI was surprised by the PSU, it looked bargain-basement level to me.Dave's normal obsession with quality capacitors seems to have gone out of the window on this one.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 11:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 23, 2018, 06:00:47 pmhttps://youtu.be/APvuMPGswug?t=1640If he is doing what he did in the video that he made and recorded, then a higher clock speed will increase the encode speed, and like in the video, he did see an improvement.Nvenc only has 1 thread that prepares data for the GPU to render, thus everything will get held up by that single thread. The application will use multiple cores, but the task that is most important, is left with just 1 core. If he could control which core that nvidia encoder thread fell on, and overclock that 1 core to 5GHz,he would see a large speed increase.If he is relying purely on a CPU encode, then threadripper would offer better encode times, but other aspects of editing will suffer, especially if he does tasks that are traditionally single threaded, such as camera tracking, or if he tries to do a special combination of color grades that cannot be GPU accelerated.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 11:07:52 pm
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on June 23, 2018, 10:17:19 pmPossible if you killed updates completely. Which means you don't care about security at all.Quote=NoYoutube and NoManyMore. If you leave scripts enabled for any single website, you are not safe because you can stumble on malicious ads anywhere.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 05:21:45 am
content: Where did the video go? I watched 1/2 of it a few hours back, came back to watch the rest and it's gone. Who's copyright was offended this time?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 07:22:27 am
content: Dave may have done some further editing and is uploading the new version.I suggest trying again over the next couple of hours or so...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 08:12:40 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 23, 2018, 11:07:52 pmNo, but you're a lot safer.(and the web is a whole lot less annoying)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:07:12 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2018, 08:12:40 amDisabling updates is compromising safety to begin with. Then NoScript to somewhat half-assed solution.QuoteAnd much more annoying, not less (for less annoyance there is adblock). You'll find like half of the websites don't work or work incorrectly. And every time you'll manually enable scripts, you'll compromise security. I disable scripts myself sometimes against very annoying news sites which want you to pay subscription but allow reading the thing with scripts disabled. But every time I disable scripts, I find that almost any other site is broken.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:17:38 am
content: Calm. 99.999999999% of the browsers are NOT vulnerable. Check yours here:https://codepen.io/internweb/full/XVZmQW/If you disable the javascripts, might as well just stop using your computer.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:29:54 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 24, 2018, 09:17:38 amWhat a BS claim, 99.999999999% pulled out of from thin air, there are not so many people on the earth for that figure to make sense. And this tool does not test against meltdown which is the most dangerous.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:59:41 am
content: Seems like the video is up again at the EEVblog2 channel..I think there is little point to go the i9 series processors on the Intel platform. Then at that point I think a threadripper is way more cost efficient. The 7900x is literally 2x more expensive than the 7820x, for only 2 more cores (which are also clocked a bit slower).This benchmarksuggests it's a pretty linear increase in speed of about 20%, for 100% more cost (but less on total system cost though).In terms of comparing it to AMD offerings, see same benchmark. The AMD 1800X is nowhere close in h265, the 2700X is an incremental improvement (add a generous 15%), so same. The 1920X is 22% quicker in h264, but about on par as the 7820X in h265. So it's about even I guess.I assume this is also Dave's workstation at the office, in that case the faster single-core performance of the 7820X should also be taken into consideration. There the 7820X scores 194 in Cinebench single-thread, vs 167 for 1920X/1950X..I think that in terms of buying equipment as adesktop, then this is key. Although multi-core performance is nice to have for that 22% h264 boost, this is something you could fix with a next gen upgrade or getting a more expensive CPU. The single core performance for daily tasks is something different altogether. However it's hard to guess where CPU land is going to be in 2 or 3 years time. It probably won't be making much improvements in single-core performance though, so it's nice to maximize what's available.Threadripper gen 2 is already announced for launch end of this summer I think. Flagship is going to be a 32 core 64 thread monster, but I doubt that will be priced as competitively as the 1950X was. Personally I think they will extrapolate the current pricing scheme, i.e. you will still get more cores for less money than at previous gen launch, but I doubt that they will put out a 32-core chip at 1000$, such that the other skews (12, 16, 24?) will be priced accordingly..I'm planning to upgrade my workstation somewhere this winter, and key for me would be to see what the ST/MT performance vs pricing vs core load will be..But if you're only doing GPU accelerated rendering, then probably the i7 is plenty..

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 11:34:28 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 23, 2018, 10:44:42 pmThat's just popular entertainment for the crowd.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 11:40:44 am
content: Daft CPU, silly flashy RAM, and cheaping out on motherboard and PSU.Oh well. Lead a horse to water and all that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2018, 11:40:44 amAnd does the job nicely, thanks for asking.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:16:53 pm
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 23, 2018, 08:28:17 pmApart from the fact that the CPU is not doing the encoding.

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 23, 2018, 11:07:52 pmI do care about security, but i want to decide when to update and i do not like my PC restarting on me. Usually i put my PC into sleep mode with a ton of stuff open, i would be pretty pissed off if it would restart because "security".... BTW just because you dont install updates it does not mean you are not safe, the last updates i installed are from 2015 on my win7 partition and interestingly i didnt got any kind of crap on it(it was my main OS up until a few months ago). Contrary to what you believe the reason for disabling updates is not the lack of care for security, but because i care. MS used the update system to spread ad and spyware onto older versions of windows, and they fallen so low that they marked some of them as security updates.Quote from: wraper on June 23, 2018, 11:07:52 pmYou can enable them on a per domain basis, and with adblock you can do it even on per script basis.... Its not convenient? Yes, but if something is more secure its always less convenient....

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:22:10 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2018, 12:16:53 pmThen why bother with that monster at all?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 23, 2018, 03:09:41 pmNo, it's not. It's made for instances that can make use of large numbers of threads, and that isn't the case in my workflow. The CPU isn't doing the rendering. And Vegas doesn't really make use of it in general.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2018, 12:22:10 pmThe CPU is still decoding the source and funneling the 4K data to the GPU.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2018, 12:26:58 pmWhen did that become a 16 thread problem? Decoding is fast and, well, DMA.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:29:31 pm
content: Quote from: Razor512 on June 23, 2018, 04:50:31 pmCPU runs at under 60degC when rendering (overclocked). 70degC on 100% all cores loaded. I wouldn't say that's something that needs fixing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2018, 12:28:53 pmI never said it did. In fact I believe it's a single thread operation in Vegas. Hence why Threadripper is not the best tool for the job here.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2018, 12:29:31 pmDon't mind the Noctua fanboys. The Hyper 212 is, although not the best, almost without doubt the best value air cooler on the market. Unless you're using one of the old AMD 220W space heaters it's an easy choice.Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2018, 12:31:00 pm.. well I asked you specifically why you picked the monster 16-thread i7, and that was your answer. Note I never suggested Threadripper, either..

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 12:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on June 24, 2018, 12:20:48 pmSo many websites will be broken, it does not even matter. Websites are not controlling what ads they show, so leaving some websites with scripts enabled makes this practically meaningless.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvertising

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 01:10:07 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2018, 12:28:53 pmFrom the video:Average CPU use is well over 50%.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 01:34:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2018, 01:10:07 pmThat's not a good screenshot. Couldn't you spend a minute or two to go through the relevant video segment frame-by-frame to find one with the most typical CPU utilization?Do i have to do this myself? Yes, i do:Joking aside, 50%...60% seems to be indeed the average encoding load. When the encoding finishes (a few seconds later in the video), one can observe the rather miniscule CPU load caused by the screen-capturing (and other background processes), which is far less than 10%.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 01:48:40 pm
content: Digital Video Editing Terminologyhttps://www.manifest-tech.com/links/video_terms.htmdecoding (input) != rendering (timeline/effects) != encoding (output)The GPU can (usually, but only for common in/out video formats) help in decoding and encoding, BUT "help" does not necessarily mean a GPU can do it faster than 16 or 32 cpu cores would. It depends on a variety of factors.The GPU partially helps in rendering ("accelerated" effects).When/if the GPU can't help, the CPU will have to do it, some tasks in some programs will spawn multiple threads, others won't and do it single threadedly. For example, vintage QuickTime could only encode using one thread, and didn't use the GPU. Idem for vintage HandBrake. Etc.Vegas isn't Premiere nor Final Cut nor iMovie nor xxxx, that's why -I think- there's plenty of different but equally valid answers to the question of what's the best PC video editing configuration: you need to know well the editing software, and then flip the knobs in the settings to find the optimal workflow for your particular software/hardware (and input/output formats/codecs) combo.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:15:34 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on June 24, 2018, 01:34:35 pmYou want me to do your homework?I don't know the average but it's obviously more than 50%.Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 24, 2018, 01:48:40 pmWe've been through this many times in other threads.Sony Vegas doesn't appear to use thehardware video encodinginstructions that are built into Intel Chips.Encoders that use them can getmuchfaster encoding on the CPU, but... Dave likes Sony Vegas and he's told us he's not interested in changing.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:29:39 pm
content: The encode in his video takes so long it almost seems a transcode. I've seen FC do that much much faster in lesser Macs. Also, I wonder where does Vegas put the intermediate/cache/render files? Because he's got such a tiny SSD... are these going into the RAID? If so, that's bad.

author: meeder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:38:31 pm
content: He stores all video files on a NAS raid array with both network interfaces connected.A local cache would be better I guess. The 250GB M.2 is enough for Windows and applications but I would get a couple of SATA SSD's in RAID-0 to create a fast local cache.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:49:22 pm
content: Quote from: meeder on June 24, 2018, 02:38:31 pmSothat'swhy the Ethernet usage is so high in the video. I wondered about that:Quote from: meeder on June 24, 2018, 02:38:31 pmDoesn't look to me as if that's the bottleneck though, the bottleneck appears to be the graphics card.(and probably using theNVENCunit on the card, not general CUDA)

author: AmericanLocomotive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:57:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2018, 12:31:00 pm...and that's why your build makes absolutely zero sense. You went with the expensive X299 platform, who's major benefits are the ability to use high core count processors and massive amounts of IO. Then you absolutely gimp it with with a low end, but expensive 8 core processor, that doesn't even allow all of your PCI-E slots to operate at their rated speed. Finally you topped it off a low-end budget power supply and a GeForce 1050. It'd be fine if you had actually gone with a CPU to justify the x299 platform (The HCC 10+ core parts), but you didn't.You could have moved "down" to the Intel Z370 platform, gotten an MSI Z370 A-Pro, an i7-8700 and saved $300. You would have retained 85% of the multi threaded CPU performance, with much better single threaded. That $300 could have gone towards a better power supply, and a GeForce 1060, which might actually have tangible benefits for someone using GPU acceleration.Or, you could have gone with the AMD X370 platform, an ASRock x370 PRO4, and an AMD Ryzen 2700X. The 2700X has 95-100% of the i9-7820x's performance. This combination would have also saved you well over $300 compared to what you bought, while offering near identical CPU performance. Once again allowing you to spec out a better GPU for encoding, and a more robust power supply within the same budget.It's not an AMD vs Intel thing, or a low vs high budget thing, or a favorite-brand-fanboy thing. You're a respected part of the electronics community, and many people take things you post very seriously. You post a video with a poorly researched, poorly planned PC build with a component configuration that just doesn't make sense given what you're trying to do. You spent way more money than you had to for your given performance. People are rightfully calling you out for it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 02:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: meeder on June 24, 2018, 02:38:31 pmWhich is pointless because only one will get used without a lot of trickery.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 04:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2018, 02:58:11 pmWhy would getting channel-load-balanced LACP require a lot of trickery?Are you referring to Windows 10's patented behavior of "Yesterday I did, Today I don't", or rather about some constraints with the particular NAS (Synology?) and/or network switches Dave uses?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 04:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on June 24, 2018, 04:28:23 pmNeither - just general networking constraints. Effectively, traffic from host 1 to host 2 will always take place over the same link in the bond. There are ways around this, not involving using LACP, but in most cases they will end up incuring painful penalties due to out of order packet delivery.Switch to switch this isn't usually an issue, and I'm sure various manufacturers have proprietary hackarounds, but as a general rule, between just two hosts you're limited to the speed of a single link.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 04:49:57 pm
content: Is that 1 Gb ethernet in Dave's new mobo? If so, how is that better than SATA?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 04:50:40 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 24, 2018, 04:49:57 pm.. well, it's not. Except it can go outside the case. And it's a completely different thing.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 05:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2018, 04:35:30 pmDoh! Yeah, with SMB protocol only using a single TCP port, load-balanced LACP with L4 hashing is out of the window.SMB Multi-Channel would provide a way for making use of multiple links, but it is only available in Windows Server. Well, at least Dave's system has some failover capability if one of his kids trips over one of the network cables.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 05:06:36 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on June 24, 2018, 05:01:47 pmAnd that's assuming you have a direct link or at least a layer 3 switch. Really is just easier and cheaper to go with 10GigE.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 06:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on June 24, 2018, 05:01:47 pm<pedant>...and Windows 10 Pro for Workstations.</pedant>

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 07:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2018, 04:50:40 pmPerhaps it's one of those synologys that do themselves the video transcoding.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 08:14:05 pm
content: The recordings are something like 60-100mbps bitrate, XAVC-S or whatever, so 1 gbps network speed is perfectly fine. The latency will suck though, i mean each time data is requested it's gonna be some time until it's read by the nas and the first bytes come... unless the nas storage is SSDs.It sucks that DDR4 memory is expensive. If it were cheaper, a solution would be to buy a few 8 or 16 GB memory sticks and fill that board with memory. then use ImDisk Virtual Disk driver (this one I use because it's open source) or some other software to create a RAM disk and load all the footage into the ram disk when you start editing on a project. Then you won't care if you use SSDs or regular mechanical drives, everything's in RAM.For example, a 8 GB stick is 75$ and 16 GB sticks are 150$.Dave, you have that dual xeon machine, which should have plenty of memory slots. If it accepts unregistered DDR3, you could just fill those slots with memory and set up FreeNAS with a ton of RAM caching, so once Vegas starts requesting data from a file, Freenas would cache the file to RAM and then you'd have very snappy timeline, faster rendering etc.8 GB memory sticks are cheaper as well, something like 50$ each. And registered ecc ddr3 is cheaper on ebay, i see for example 16 GB (2x8) for 92 australian dollars on ebay , here'san exampleorthis one for 63$for 2 x 8 GB DDR3 1333 mhz registered eccIf anyone cares, here's the overkill solution LinusTechTips has ... though they record their Youtube videos and other projects for various clients in 8K 60fps with RED cameras:

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 09:03:46 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 24, 2018, 12:46:34 pmNot really if they calling them on a external domain(meaning even if i white-list the site the external stuff still gets blocked), and even if they dont adblock takes care of the rest.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2018, 11:32:34 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on June 24, 2018, 08:14:05 pmI have been in the movie business for decades.....that may be the silliest thing yet. Here in Hollywood.... 4k is overkill for most everything. Beyond that, it is only useful for bkg plates and visual effects elements.YouTube videos? Just plain funny to bother.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:10:46 am
content: Quote from: mariush on June 24, 2018, 08:14:05 pmNo need, it works perfectly fine from my Synology NAS.And yes I have tested the difference between a super fast M.2 drive and the NAS, and it's practically nothing in terms of rendering speed.Bottom line, having a fast local drive makes practicallyno difference. This is not speculation, I have tested it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:24:04 am
content: Quote from: AmericanLocomotive on June 24, 2018, 02:57:28 pmI don't need the other PCI-E slots.QuoteAnd a more expensive PSU would have gained me what exactly?QuoteBefore you complained my processor wasn't fast enough, now you are complaining that I bought too high end a processor. Do make up your mind.Quote1) I *already had* the GTX-10502) The GTX-1060 would have made no difference. The encoding is done using the NVENC hardware in the Pascal chipset which is identical on all the GTX-10xx boards.QuoteYou can "call me out" all you want.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:26:11 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on June 24, 2018, 11:32:34 pmCountless people have said it's a big improvement in video quality. Not just in 4K but in 1080p and lower.

author: AmericanLocomotive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:48:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:24:04 amThen why in the world would you use the X299 platform, if you don't need or want the I/O? Why would you choose a 4-channel RAM system, and then put a processor in it that doesn't even have enough cores to utilize all of that RAM bandwidth?QuoteYou bought a garbage inefficient 80 plus bronze budget PSU, with garbage no name caps, and garbage group regulation. Literally another 40 dollars would have gotten you 80 plus platinum efficiency, Japanese capacitors and excellent independent voltage regulation. You constantly complain about garbage capacitors and garbage power supplies in your videos - yet you put a garbage power supply in your own video editing system.QuoteThat's not what I said at all. I said you bought a slow expensive processor, on a high-end expensive platform. You bought into an expensive processor platform (X299) and then paired it with the 2nd lowest end processor you could have put on it. As a result, your system is not any faster than a Ryzen 2700X rig that would have cost over $300 less, and is only marginally faster in multi-threaded loads compared to an i7-8700 system that would have also cost $300 less. Looking at Australian parts prices puts that difference realistically over $400 cheaper.The X299 and Threadripper platforms only make sense with high core count processors that justify the added expensive. You bought into the X299 platform and paired it with a low end (for the platform) CPU that gimps your I/O and offers no extra performance compared to Intel and AMD's low-end "consumer" platforms.QuoteThe 1060 runs at a higher clock speed, so the video encoder should also run faster as well. Either way, it doesn't matter. The extra money saved could have been put towards more storage, more RAM, better PSU, etc...QuoteI will. Someone who's in the business of educating people about electronics should probably be doing educated PC builds.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:51:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:24:04 amGreater reliability, lower power consumption.QuoteThere is a difference between single thread performance and price tag.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:55:19 am
content: Quote from: AmericanLocomotive on June 25, 2018, 12:48:12 amBecause it was available in stock, and was one of the cheapest LGA2066 motherboards they had.QuoteI didn't have the time nor inclination to research teardowns of a dozen different PSU's.You seem deeply offended by this entire thing, too bad for you.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:03:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:55:19 amHe asked why you went with the platform, not the board.

author: AmericanLocomotive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:10:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:55:19 amYou're dancing around the question. I didn't ask why you bought that specific motherboard, I asked why you chose theX299 platform. Why chose an expensive platform who's primary benefits are Massive I/O, High-Core-Count Processors and 4-Channel RAM if you'renot going to utilize a single one of those features?The far less expensive Intel Z370 or AMD X370 platforms have processors that allow you to achieve essentially the exact same performance at amuchlower cost.QuoteYou don't have to. TomHardware and JonnyGuru have already done all the legwork. TomsHardware even has a handy ranking guide for their PSUs. You should have made the time, because the PSU is one of the most important parts of a PC. I've seen many computers killed by cheap power supplies that grenaded.QuoteAh, ad hominem attacks. Why bother addressing my points in this argument, when you can just attack me personally instead?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:19:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:55:19 amThis should answer a number of the critics - but I fear there will be some who are far too high and mighty to concede some fundamentalpracticalities.Some people have limited time that they wish to throw at a project and 'optimal' solutions can take far more time than they can justify. What's available "here and now" has value that offsets the "optimal". The MOBO allows for future upgrades, if necessary. That's something I would do.Dave has a practical solution that does what he needs. While he did get some relevant detail, he didn't spend weeks chasing down every last little nuance and tweak. And even if he did - by how much more would the performance improve? Considering some opinions strongly expressed are based on erroneous understanding, I don't imagine there would be much, if anything, in it.I may be speaking out of turn, but I would think Dave has better things to do with his time.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:20:55 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 25, 2018, 01:19:10 amTo my mind, this is the key question.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:23:24 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 25, 2018, 01:20:55 amProbably not by much.How much would the price improve? How much would the reliability improve?Is a half hour of research worth saving a couple hundred dollars? Is it worth saving several hours of lost productivity because the power supply decided to crap itself early?But none of these questions matter and there is nothing to be learned, apparently.

author: AmericanLocomotive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:35:43 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 25, 2018, 01:23:24 amExactly. Dave and Brumby are acting like it takes some kind of monumental effort to do basic research for building a PC. It took me less than aminuteto find a power supply within $30 of the one Dave bought, that's 80 Plus platinum with good capacitors and independent regulation.A 5 minute search shows that the Ryzen 2700 and Intel I7-8700 (and motherboards to match) are in stock at many different Australian retailers - including UMart, CPL, MegaBuy, Aus PC Market, mWave, PC Case Gear, and even Amazon Australia.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:56:43 am
content: I didn't comment much on the power supply because honestly, I don't think it's so big of an issue.Yes, it's a "budget" psu, with not so great components, but at the same time it's not going to be heavily used, so it's gonna last a long time anyway.For example, while he's editing the videos in Vegas, basically just the cpu will be used a bit, so the power consumption will probably idle at around 50-80 watts. When he's rendering for a few hours, maybe the system's gonna use 2-300 watts.So basically the power supply will barely warm up at those 50-100w of power consumption (10-20% out of those 650w) during most of the time it runs, and then it will "sweat" a little for a few hours every 2-3 days or so, when a video is actually rendered.Could you do better? Yeah. It would only take maybe 10-20$ more, to go with a Gold efficiency psu from a good brand ( Seasonic, EVGA, Corsair etc) but if the use of the computer is like I say above, it really won't make much of a difference.I agree with what others say about the platform though. x299 is not a great choice. It's practically already outdated, whatever Intel's gonna release is probably going to require new chipsets, so not much upgrade choices other than what's now... you'll find cpus on eBay.Then all the exploits for Intel and the ton of Windows updates to fix various exploits in Intel cpus, and patching some of those exploits requires microcode updates, which must be performed by updating the bios - and if that motherboard is on the cheaper end of x299 boards the board maker may be slow at releasing bios updates...Ryzen processors and the Zen cores don't suffer from so many exploits as the Intel cpus and whatever was found to be vulnerable was fixed through simpler Windows updates, without much stress. With AM4 socket from AMD you'd also have future upgrade choicesRight now I also have to agree with everyone, this x299 board with that cpu is like pairing a Threadripper motherboard with a 8 core 1900x, a shame... the 1900x is available as a choice in case user needs lots of memory (8 slots) or lots of pci-e slots (since cpu has 64 lanes if i remember correctly)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:20:41 am
content: Quote from: AmericanLocomotive on June 25, 2018, 01:10:08 amBecause when I searched the local suppliers website for LGA2066 motherboards, the X299 wasliterally the only option.Are you done now?QuoteAgain, you seem personally offended by all this. Must be really hard being on the Internet?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:26:36 am
content: Quote from: AmericanLocomotive on June 25, 2018, 01:10:08 amNot an attack, an observation. You do seem genuinely deeply offended that about choices I made.Do you want me to say you are right? Ok, you are right. You win the internet, congratulations.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:27:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 02:20:41 amYou're still failing to understand the question.Why did you pick the silly 7820X over say, an 8700K, which has two fewer cores (boohoo, you've already said you're dealing with single threaded loads), a higher clock, more L3, lower power consumption, a lower price, and goes on a lower cost motherboard?Hell, you could've gone with an 8086K if you can find one and gone even faster.

author: AmericanLocomotive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:36:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 02:20:41 amThe LGA2066 socket is part of the X299 platform by definition. Why would you chose the LGA2066/X299/Intel HPC platform if you're not going to use any of the features of benefits it provides?Once again, you constantly criticize other companies and people's projects in your videos for not doing basic research, for wasting money on unnecessary features, etc... And here you go, doing exactly the thing you criticize. You did zero research, used expensive components you're not even going to use the features of, that do not provide any performance benefit over much cheaper components and then cheaped on important things you shouldn't have.You constantly criticize the power supplies of products you look at it, and yet you didn't even do 1 minute of research to chose a decent PSU for your own system. Literally 1 minute and an extra $30 would have made you go from an 85% efficient PSU with no-name caps, to a 92% efficient premium PSU with Japanese capacitors.QuoteMore ad hominem personal attacks against me, Dave? For someone who criticizes so many others on the internet and strives to be professional, I really expected you to be able to take more criticism yourself without resulting to personal attacks.What gets me is that you strive to be professional, you always emphasize doing research and speccing out good components for a given budget projects, and openly criticize other people's and companies products. Yet, you then do this PC build with no research, no forethought, and get all bent out of shape when people rightfully criticize it. Instead of actually addressing mine (and other people's) points, you just reply with snide remarks or just straight up ignore them. It's really unprofessional and off-putting.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:38:34 am
content: Quote from: mariush on June 25, 2018, 01:56:43 amAgain, here goes the merry-go-round.On one had people are "sad" that my powerful X299 chipset is being "crippled" by this "low end" CPU.Yet they also say the X299 is outdated.Look, this is really bloody easy - I decided to go with the i7 7820X (rightly or wrongly), that uses an LGA2066 socket, ergo I had to chose an LGA2066 motherboard, and theonly option availablewas the X299 chipset. I needed a cheap and available PSU to go with that so I chose a reasonable priced option that was in stock and had a known low noise fan. I have used "cheap" PSU's before and never had a problem. In 5 years time you either get to say "I don't you so", or I get the say it, until then get so emotional about it?People seem so deeply deeply offended that I didn't consider every single thing, and that I didn't go with a less powerful system that was slightly better "bang-per-buck". Seriously

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:40:05 am
content: Quote from: AmericanLocomotive on June 25, 2018, 02:36:32 amThey are not personal attacks, it's an observation.Saying someone "seems deeply offended" is so far from a personal attack it's not funny. If you don't understand why it's not then I don't know what more to say.I could have ignored you entirely, yet here I am answering your questions, yeah, so unprofessional...But I won't engage with you again on this, I'm done.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:40:15 am
content: Or perhaps some of us are just trying to understand your thought process and perhaps in the process everyone can learn something.So far you seem to be the only one upset.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:43:42 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 25, 2018, 02:40:15 amI just explained it.This was not some deeply researched system design exercise, please try and understand that. I had PC problems and needed a new PC literally that day. I ordered the stuff, went and picked it up, and had my system up and running that afternoon.

author: AmericanLocomotive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:46:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 02:38:34 amHere you go again, with snide and rude remarks. No one is offended by anything Dave. We questioned why you went with the hardware you did, when it made no apparent sense. Instead of answering the questions and responding to the criticism, you either avoided the questions entirely, replied with non-answers, or just replied with snide and rude remarks.Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 02:43:42 amAlright, You didn't do any research at all and just went out and bought whatever. Gotcha. Fair enough. You should still be more open to criticism though.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:47:50 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 02:43:42 amSo you just pulled the most expensive i7 you could see out of a hat and went with it.Fine. Okay. 10 minutes research would've saved you some money - and four pages of this.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 03:01:14 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 25, 2018, 02:40:15 amNot at all.But let me explain something to you about what happens with videos like this. I get countless emails, comments, messages and whatnot all telling me *something different*. I could literally spend the rest of this week as a full time job responding to people's questions about this and explaining every little thing.There is no best decision on something like this, as much as many people think there is, it's an unwinnable game.So I spent a bit more money than I could have, the world isn't going to end.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 03:08:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 03:01:14 amI'm well aware. I can see a large portion of them you know. But you only seem to reply to comments which push your buttons.

author: AmericanLocomotive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 03:23:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 03:01:14 amYeah, that's fine and I get that. I get that there's no "right" build, and I don't particularly care as long as you have some justification for what you purchased and why you purchased it. I was getting frustrated with your non-answers of my questions (apparently unintentional, do to a misunderstand of the term "x299 platform" - fair enough). Like I said, there were many different ways you could have skinned this cat, but the way you chose was very bizarre to me, and I could not understand why. As an educational content creator, I feel that you more than anyone should explain the reasons behind your decisions and choices as it relates to electronics.But if the answer is, there is no real reason behind the choices - it was just a bunch of parts thrown in a cart quickly and checked out - that's fair and adequate enough explanation.QuoteThe snide & rude remarks you made like: "Must be hard being on the internet?" and "too bad for you." are attacks on my character Dave. They're completely irrelevant & unnecessary to the topic at hand, and were meant as an attempt to get under my skin, aggravate me and start a flame war. But I don't bite for stuff like that anymore. Argue the points the person makes - not the person himself.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 03:39:52 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 25, 2018, 02:47:50 amNot quite.It was faster than the 8700K, not nearly as expensive as the i9's and others, it was on special at my local store, and by all accounts I could find is a pretty decent CPU and had good benchmark results.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 03:41:49 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 25, 2018, 03:08:40 amIt only seems that way, but that's not true.I'll let you in on another Youtuber secret and why a Youtuber might respond to question or comment in what might seem like a harsh way;When you ask a question, you are often not aware that a dozen or a hundred other people might have asked the same question, or made the same comment. So it's often not the first time the Youtuber has seen that question or comment, it could be the 10th time, or even the 100th time. That can be kinda frustrating sometimes.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 04:21:57 am
content: 8 core 8 thread processorhttps://www.itwire.com/security/83347-openbsd-chief-de-raadt-says-no-easy-fix-for-new-intel-cpu-bug.htmlTLBleed means every OS will have to disable HT on pretty much every Intel CPU, because Intel decided 0.5% more IPC was more important than security, at a time they had pretty much 40% IPC lead over AMD, bravo!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 04:27:26 am
content: As I said earlier, time is a factor in these decisions for some people - and it turns out it was more of a factor than I had anticipated.How about we just say that Davemaynot have made the best choice, but he didn't make a bad choice (especially considering the circumstances) ... and move on.Please.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 04:33:19 am
content: Quote from: AmericanLocomotive on June 25, 2018, 01:35:43 amI often do that, too, but whenever I go to a power supply shop they never have that one in stock and I end up getting something worse.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 04:55:07 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 25, 2018, 04:27:26 amCan anyone actually tell me, ignoring "bang-per-buck", if there is anything fundamentally "wrong" about my build?Could I have gotten *better* performance (for my needs) for a *lot less* cost?Is my CPU or motherboard or memory or drive or cooler fundamentally *unfit for my purpose* in some way?Because I have yet to hear this in any of the comments.The arguments all seem to be based on "bang-per-buck", with, at least on the forum here, advocating for an essentiallylower performancesystem.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 04:58:31 am
content: I don't have a problem with your build, Dave. I was just trying to couch some way of phrasing the current "thoughts" so that we could get over this.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:00:30 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 25, 2018, 04:58:31 amYes, I was just using your post as springboard comment to all.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:02:22 am
content: Fair enough.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:02:37 am
content: BTW I just tried an experiment to see if having a 2nd video card made any difference. i.e. having one card (GTX-750ti) running the three screens, and the GTX-1050 doing just the rendering. Zero difference.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:05:58 am
content: I have no idea if the CPU/motherboard was a good or bad choice, I'm not up to full speed there and I'm guessing you're not either.The final PC seemed to work and all the "advice" being presented here about better choices will be outdated in a few months anyway.Iwasa bit disappointed by the power supply though. It works, yes, but I'm sure you'd point and laugh if a power supply like that appeared in a mailbag.(...and it seemed like the PSU you took out was better. What was the problem with it, missing cables?)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:11:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 05:02:37 amYep. The NVENC encoder won't affected by stuff like that. You might get a bit faster performance with a higher clock speed graphics card but you're probably better off trying to overclock the 750Ti.(and that's theonlytweak that could make any difference on your current setup, IMHO)

author: encryptededdy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:31:35 am
content: Yeah I'm a bit confused - if you preferred the modular PSU that was already there why not just use that?You could do a test to see if it's louder, but I doubt it would be.Also please enable XMP so your RAM runs at 3000Mhz

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 06:12:54 am
content: Quote from: encryptededdy on June 25, 2018, 05:31:35 amI have another use for it, and it's old, so not the best choice for a new machine, so I got a new one.QuoteI did, the before-after result is in the video.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 06:14:13 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2018, 05:05:58 amI would have no clue at all unless I opened it and inspected it. It'sthathorrible? Like so bad it's going to fail in a year when fairly lightly loaded?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 06:14:59 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2018, 05:11:00 amThat's what I suspected, but you don't know until you actually test it.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 07:05:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 04:55:07 amThose RGB DIMMS have to be the tackiest memory I have ever seen. :-)Do they do anything else apart from what we saw?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 07:58:09 am
content: Quote from: Towger on June 25, 2018, 07:05:24 amNot that I'm aware. Does anyone know if they can be modded in some way to just stay red or at least do something useful?EDIT: It seems you can, using an SPD writehttp://www.gskill.com/en/download/view/trident-z-rgb-control

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 08:07:51 am
content: Isn't RGB all the craze because you can control them via software?Maybe it says something on the box of the memory dimms. It probably suggests you to install some kind of app/bloatware to control a few LED patterns. Perhaps it can show CPU usage or something when you're in Windows, at least that's somewhat useful.Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 04:55:07 amThese kind of discussions are the same for when people buy 2nd hand cars. Some would buy German, other Japanese, and finally some people get a French car because they are usually quite cheap.You can't say what was the right choice at the moment of purchase. You can find out how the car drives, search online for approximation about how reliable the car is and the fuel economy. But that's about it.Some people have great luck with their French purchase. Others can get top brand model and have endless problems. Some people are strongly opinionated about the subject, and will always say "should have gotten ....".I think the extra $ you paid for this build, is mainly for the platform. The 7820X dropped pretty severely in price due to the competition offerings (including 8700K, probably). The 7900X is what I would still call an overpriced CPU. Also, mid to high-end X470 boards aren't exactly cheap neither.You're using quad channel memory, unfortunately can't find any benchmark that correlates memory bandwidth with performance in video workloads. My guess is that it does make some difference, since video processing is usually quite cache size dependent..Whether the X299 platform is "outdated" or obsolete; that could also be the point. 2700X and X470 is out for only 2 months. Although Ryzen and AM4 as a platform is pretty mature by now, you could still have frequent BIOS revisions on these boards. Something you don't want for a daily production machine or workstation. From the video it seems that this build was plug'n'play and just worked. You could potentially have done a lot worse if you struck on some memory incompatibility issue or something.So IMO there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the build. It works and it performs according to the review figures. With AMD vs Intel competition now going on, this build is probably "last gen" in about a years time anyway, so what gives.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 08:38:51 am
content: Quote from: hans on June 25, 2018, 08:07:51 amAnd that's another thing, for those who want to know more about the decision making process.Last I looked at the AMD offerings was about 6 months ago when I was considering a new machine, so I didn't know much about the new 2700X.Then when I desperately needed a new machine the other day I looked at the high end CPU benchmark list among other thingshttps://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.htmlI had an idea of what I was looking at paying for a CPU, and the 8700X and 2700X were both somewhat below the 7820X, and the 7820X was on special at the local dealer and was within my budget, so it seemed like the best performance for the money I was willing to pay. The i9's were too pricey, as were the Threadrippers. The 8700X and 2700X seemed a bit like "skimping" in terms of performance a just a bit. The 7820X had been around a long time and it had good writeups, so after checking a few more things the 7820X it was. Decision made.Some may think that's a wrong decision, but to me it was a perfectly acceptable and reasonably thought out one given the last minute decision. And given that no one is saying that the 7820X is not a good performer, again the only argument that seems to be left is bang-per-buck, and I was deliberately not really shooting for that as the absolute driving requirement, I was shooting for the best processor for a given price bracket. So if anyone want to continue to discuss based on that methodology then feel free to do so.Once the processor was chosen, the motherboard was the best reasonable price one they had in stock to match.Memory likewise, but no one seems to be complaining about that choice, or the SDD choice. A few grumbled on the cooler but my test results say it's just fine as I expected.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 08:47:08 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 25, 2018, 02:47:50 amI could have saved money, at the expense of performance. Please show me an overall more powerful CPU than the 7820X for the same price.I'm having a hard time seeing it:

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 09:51:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 08:47:08 amYou could buy a machine with better performance foryour workloadfor much less. 6 core i7-8700k when using GPU encoding as it has much better single thread performance. Or you could get around the same overall performance for much less with Ryzen 2700x, GPU encoding speed might hurt a little bit because it has lower single core boost clock. That screenshot is pretty much meaningless, passmark is one piece of useless benchmark.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:04:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 04:55:07 amCPU fan mounted incorrect way and working against cooler on the back and crappy PSU for a machine this expensive.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:17:44 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 25, 2018, 10:04:07 amI fixed the fan, and it cools just fine, data in the latest video.Ok, so it's probably a crappy PSU, the world won't end.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:35:04 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 25, 2018, 09:51:04 amPerhaps, please quantify "much better".It seems not.The 7820X has higher fps in 4k encoding, AES encryption, ZIP, and WinRAR as examples.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:43:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 10:35:04 amNone of those use Vegas and/or GPU for video encoding. As said before, you need good single thread performance as how you do things right now, therefore 8700k would perform well. Also those are not recent enough, there is no Ryzen 2700X.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:51:19 am
content: Some other tests:

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:03:54 am
content: Should also keep in mind that you don't really know if they updated those scores in the last months.Since the vulnerabilities and exploits for Spectre and all those other, Windows shoved lots of updates to fix those and there's a bunch of bios updates that in some cases can lower performance by 5-20% on Intel processors. AMD is not that affected, if at all.Also HEVC encoder (used in the pictures above for handbrake test) uses AVX512 if present and benefits from it. Ryzen processors can process AVX 512 instructions if I remember correctly, but there's some quirk, like having half the bus width or something that basically results in half the avx512 performance more or less. AVX512 instructions are not a huge part, i don't know, maybe 20-30% of overall cpu usage when encoding hevc , but they do give the Intel cpus a boost on HEVC encoding.h264 doesn't use this AVX512 that much, so that hevc benchmark may not paint a good picture for you as you're encoding h264.Oh, and also note those avx512 instructions do help but they also use a ton of power so the cpu may have to throttle down its frequencies if those instructions are used. Ryzen processors don't suffer from that.At performance / price paid for mb+cpu , AMD wins. At performance / electricity used, amd probably wins or is neck and neck, depending on encoding settings.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:06:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 04:55:07 amThe Ryzen 2700x has roughly the same performance as your CPU. Some wins, some losses as can be expected.https://www.anandtech.com/show/12625/amd-second-generation-ryzen-7-2700x-2700-ryzen-5-2600x-2600You would save about 150 on the CPU, 50 on the cooler and perhaps another 50 on the motherboard or so. Not better performance *and* price, but price gains for sure.If saving some 250$ or so is of little importance, you could have gone the other way, got yourself a 12-core Threadripper and wipe the floor with that 7820x.Asking us to beat *both* price and performance is just dirty fighting IMO

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:12:29 am
content: I think these benchmarks only tell half the story. They are done with proper coolers on high-end motherboards.Intel is better in H265/HEVC because of AVX2 instructions. Good cooling is required in this workload, because the CPU can't reach max turbo under AVX2 workloads due power and thereby temperature limits. Another funny note: I believe the TDP on a chip is measured at base clock, so if you want good turbo's you need a decent motherboard with great power deliveryandgood cooling. The boxed cooler Intel supplies is crap (but I don't think these X/K parts ship with one tho), especially with these higher core count chips.Although Ryzen parts ship with better coolers, the chip it self will need to fall back on less powerful SIMD instructions ([although I stand to be corrected how it works exactly]), which explains why the 2700X lacks 15-20% behind in HEVC tests, but is on par in 7zip etc. Thereby IF you I would need to choose anything else than a 7820X, I would probably choose the 8700K for this workload, in the event that some circumstance forces CPU transcoding instead.But all these benchmarks are multi-threaded workloads. Post some Cinebench ST results. I think there is only a 5% difference between the 7820X and 8700K. The gap to 2700X is bigger (, albeit AMD has closed the gap compared with the 1800X. But for a general purpose workstation, high single thread is also nice to have (e.g. last time I used Altium, it was mostly single threaded).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:13:37 am
content: Quote from: mariush on June 25, 2018, 11:03:54 amYou'll get no argument from me, I agree.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:18:06 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on June 25, 2018, 11:06:43 amCould save more than $100 on motherboard if go for B350 chipset.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:20:52 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on June 25, 2018, 11:06:43 amAnd both the 2700X and 8700X have only 16 PCI lanes, somethign which people have taken me to task about in the 7820X choice that has 28 lanes.QuoteThat's the point, there is nothing wrong with my choice apart from it's not the best overall bang-per-buck.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:23:11 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 25, 2018, 11:18:06 amMy appologies. When I looked up the price of his Mobo apparently the first hit was a used board. So, yeah, 100 if not 150$.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:32:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 11:20:52 amRyzen has 16 PCI-E 3.0 lanes available from CPU to directly connect GPU, 4 PCI-E 3.0 lanes for NVMe SSD + additional lanes from chipset.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:39:35 am
content: BTW threadripper has 64 PCI-E lanes if that's what you are after.

author: AmericanLocomotive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 11:45:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 11:20:52 amNo one "took you to task" for choosing a processor that only has 28 lanes. We critiqued the choice of buying a processor that only has 28 lanes, on a platform designed for a processor with over 40 lanes. Putting that CPU in an X299 board gimps a bunch of the PCI-E slot - which is one of the reasons why you'd buy the platform in the first place.QuoteIf saving close to $400 is not worth doing 30 minutes of basic research, then so be it. Your time is clearly far more valuable than mine.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 03:41:49 amNot a secret. Yes, that's right, I'm not a big Youtuber but I do have a clue.Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 08:47:08 amYou've already admitted your main workflow is single threaded and you're comparing multithreaded performance - and the improvements are mostly marginal anyway.You don't do 4K HEVC encoding on the CPU, you don't have fast enough storage or networking to take advantage of the faster compression or encryption.. and with the CPU you're really limited in adding both.Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 11:20:52 amBecause you've used a crippled CPU which limits the platform, not because you need the lanes. The entire purpose of that platform is to allow very high multithreaded performance and/or I/O capability - neither of which you need or use.Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 06:14:13 amNo, it's just not the class of power supply you'd expect for a machine like this. It's the type of PSU I'd compromise on for a $500 all-in build, or keep as a spare, not what I'd put in a working machine with a CPU which costs more than the average PC.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 12:55:07 pm
content: New video coming on the main channel, with commentary on my decisions and reasoning so that people (will hopefully) stop asking.Ok, they won't stop, but it should be less volume.I'm done discussing this, I want to get on with other things.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:08:14 pm
content: In my comparatively limited video editing experience, recently mostly with PowerDirector 16 at 4k50p, performance depends on:(a) Software (different s/w, and different versions, support different h/w better than others).(b) Hardware (hardware my support encode/decode, but limited codecs, resolutions, hybrid?),(c) Workflow (effects-heavy workflow such as transitions, PIP, text etc is very different to assembling simple cuts).My Youtube videos are almost all simple 4k50p cuts re-assembled (i.e. transcoding rather than rendering). On PD 16, use of a Kaby Lake Quick Sync is the fastest method to produce by some distance, being about 1.2x to 1.3x faster than real time on either an i7-8700k or i7 7700k.NVENC on a GTX1070 or 1080 I found was about the same speed, being about 80% of real time on PD 16 for the same production.Similarly, running a 24C/48T dual Xeon E5-2696V2 software encode on PD 16 was roughly the same speed on the NVENC on GTX10xx hardware. I found that a Ryzen 1800X software encode was of similar speed.So, in PD 16, for 4k50p, simple cut re-assembly with no effects, iGPU Quick Sync on a Kaby Lake processor with iGPU came out about 1.5x faster than software or NVENC rendering.I'm not aware of any socket 2011 v1 to v4 processors supporting Quick Sync as it's an iGPU function, and as far as I know no socket 2011 processors have an iGPU.I also find that NLE on PD 16 is a very, very much better experience on a machine with an iGPU as it doens't necessarily need to transcode content to a lower resolution for editing.[YouTube recommends h.264 at between about 53 and 68Mbps variable bit rate in 4:2:0 for 4k50p, and so I use a pre-baked PD 16 AVC preset that presents at 50Mbps, close enough, and upload the produced video without further transcoding. The source files are mostly at a significantly higher bitrate, 150Mbps 4:2:0, but at the same resolution and frame rate.]

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 25, 2018, 01:08:14 pmI have got PowerDirector and it's reported to be quite fast rendering, but haven't tried it on the new machine. IIRC is was quite a bit faster than Vegas. First impression usability wasn't that great, but better than other editors I've tried. No plans to switch editors though, just from a productivity point of view, but I'm always curious.QuoteYou don't want to have the extra step to transcode to a smaller size just for editing, at least not if you are doing it every day.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 01:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 01:20:28 pmI've used PowerDirector and itisfast at rendering. It uses the Intel Quick Sync video compression instructions and should be very fast on your new 16-thread CPU.Usability is OK for splicing bits of video together. Some functions are quite well hidden though, be prepared to use google search until you figure out where they are.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 02:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2018, 01:34:00 pmOh, it looks like SkyLake has quicksync, I didn't think it had it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 04:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 02:37:16 pmafaik it's part of the GPU, which you don't have.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:30:17 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 25, 2018, 04:58:44 pmWikipedia says:Certain low-end and high-end parts (including multi-socket Xeons, and some Extreme Edition CPUs expected to be used with a dedicated GPU) do not contain the hardware core to support Quick Sync.Because ... servers shouldn't be expected to compress video?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:26:11 amThe most popular camera in TV and Features is the ARRI Alexa - a 2k camera (the 'k' arguments are best left for another forum altogether)The reason it has been so remarkably successful when Sony had the F65 (8k) and RED was pushing 4k and 6k, and for the past few years Panasonic has been offering 4k in the Varicam.....the Alexa still outnumbers them all put together. Why - because it looks good to the end user. The colorimetry and the delicate handling of its dynamic range results in a pleasing image that is also easy to work with in post-production.As far as I know....watching screenings in laser projection at the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences with ASC cinematographers...I have never once heard a comment that sounding anything like - "I wish they would have shot this on a higher resolution camera" when speaking of 2k acquisition on the Alexa.Netflix and Amazon is the primary driver of 4k acquisition since they arbitrarily made it a requirement. To managment....more K's is better. So they pushed a lot of shows into Panasonic, Sony, and RED cameras to the overall detriment of the final product.No matter how you slice it.....your content is not judged on image resolution. It is first judged on the message or story followed by editing, followed by color and contrast, followed by audio, followed by spacial resolution. I have no issue with high-resolution of course....I just don't think it should slow down or negatively impact any other element. Personally - I would never spend the money when .0001% of the audience can even tell the difference.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2018, 05:30:17 pmBecause in say 8700K GPU takes around 30% of the die area. Also Quick Sync encodes in crap quality. When it comes for free with iGPU, it's OK. But I doubt you would want Quick Sync instead of a few CPU cores. Moreover, I think most people would want 8700K with 3 additional cores instead of iGPU they likely would never use.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:49:06 pm
content: I just want to say to Dave. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. I think we all need to take it down a notch.It's awesome that you did a new PC build, and you really don't need to justify yourself to anyone. I only brought up AMD Threadripper because I think it's an amazing product (price/perf wise) for workloads similar to yours, and since you influence many people's decisions I think it was important to bring it up so that those watching know there are other [potentially better] options out there, that's all.That being said PC building is about choice, and you can build your computer from any components you want. It really doesn't matter in the end as long as you're happy.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 05:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on June 25, 2018, 05:37:33 pmYeah, I don't get it. Who cares if Dave's videos are in 4K? I don't need to see the pores in his skin or the length of individual nose hairs. Circuit board details? Those are best left to high resolution still photos. 1080p (or even 720p!) is more than adequate for any Youtube video IMHO.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 06:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on June 25, 2018, 05:58:44 pmPosterity.In 100 years time people will look back at Dave's 1080p videos and think how low resolution they are.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 07:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2018, 06:40:56 pmSo they say.....in reality only a tiny percentage of motion picture content value is locked in its resolution. IMAX is a good example - the most marketable part of the end product IS resolution and the controlled display of it.I would argue that Dave would lose close to zero subscribers if it was entirely 720p end-to-end with everything else remaining the same. Even cinematography nuts like me would not even notice. I am here for the content which is only marginally enhanced by increased resolution. To take advantage of any 4k content, I have to have a 4k display AND I have to very close to it. That is a big ask for YouTube viewing. For me personally - the majority of my YouTube consumption is on a 1080p monitor and far enough away that it is effectively 720p or 480p.I get nothing more out of the videos at the higher resolution. It's not Blade Runner.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 07:58:25 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 25, 2018, 05:39:12 pmAfter about a year of pain trying to settle on my daily driver desktop, I went through many iterations, in an effort to find THE ONE machine where I could do my development work, day to day business, and 4k video editing, in approximate order...E5-2670v1 x2I7-6800kI7-5820kE5-2696v2 x2I7-6700kRyzen 1800XRyzen 1700I7-7700kI7-8700kBy quite a way, the best processors for 4k video editing for my workflow were the two Kaby Lakes with iGPUs. They aren’t bad dev boxes either, particularly the i7-8700k with its 6 cores.In the end, I have ended up with two day to day machines, the dual E5-2696v2 for development and admin chores, and the i7-8700k for video editing.The Kaby Lake i7-7700k is now in my NAS that doubles up as one of my VM servers, and occasionally I use it remotely to produce videos if the 8700k is busy.The Skylake i7-6700k just doesn’t seem to have the right iGPU to do h264 4k encoding like the Kaby Lakes chew through on PD 16.The main down side of the dual Xeon is the boot time, but wow do 24c/48t speed up your dev builds! Its mobo also has a uefi bios that takes months to figure out. The retail i7-8700k on the other hand boots in about 4 seconds and is the most snappy machine I have.The Ryzens I’ve found really a little disappointing. They are slower to boot compared to their mainstream Intel counterparts, and there’s something about them that simply makes them feel not as snappy as the Intels. Like the Intel socket 2011s, there’s no iGPU in the two Ryzen 7s I use. Both Ryzen builds live in a cupboard switched off if that’s any testament.Unlike the dual socket 2011 Xeons, the two socket 2011 i7s, 6800k & 5820k, both 6 core, turned out to be a lot of trouble. They are both power hungry which makes a really compact ITX solution pretty much impossible, plus you need an external GPU. For my work, I found no real performance benefit of an external GPU for video editing, but handy for a bit of mining. I did try an ITX build with the i7-6800k, after thinking it was THE ONE, but with just two weeks in the role, it just stopped working, it powered itself off and couldn’t switch it on. I now believe that the VRMs blew the processor as it wouldn’t work in another board I had. Trouble was, in trying to diagnose the problem, I put the 5820k into the mobo that stopped working... and I’m pretty sure it blew that up too. Now neither worked in my spare board anymore. A bloody expensive mistake.One other thing. Beware of overclockable CPUs and the temptation to overclock! You’ll end up burning days and weeks of your life on it, when you could’ve been productive instead.For testing, all of these machine builds were populated with at least 32GB RAM in XMP profile on Intel platforms, and used either Samsung 850 EVO SATA-3 or 950 PRO NVME drives, I couldn’t tell any difference but I didn’t time it. I did try a hybrid drive a couple of times, frankly I wouldn’t bother unless it’s all you have and are desperate, they’re very disappointing.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 08:20:17 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2018, 06:40:56 pmFor me the jury’s still out on whether I prefer 1080p50 or 2160p25. The 50fps I find to be more “real”, and for me that 50p has always been a differentiator particularly for technical and factual content.I realise you have more options in post with 4k like cropping, zooming and panning, but realistically I wonder how often that’s going to be used.The videos I do nowadays are 4k50p, with mostly 4k50p sources, in an effort to cover all bases. There’s also a school of thought that says for Youtube there’s some benefit to upconverting higher bit rate 1080p to Youtube bit rate 2k or 4k to improve streaming quality. It’s also noticeable to some 50fps vs 60fps when played on a different refresh rate momitor and particulalry if the content is panning. I learned from a forum member this can be mitigated by choosing the right shutter speed/angle, but this limits correcting options for low light conditions often found inside. For the factual content done here, I can’t say I particularly notice it.A downside of 50p is that you need more light, or higher ISO, or larger aperture. Some like the bokeh effect of a larger aperture, but frankly it adds little value in the kind of factual content we’re talking about, and is detrimental when trying to maintain a large depth of field on a close up.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 09:49:20 pm
content: In our studio of about 20 people, I think I am the only person who prefers 50/60fps content.I can't stand the juddery artifacts on 24p. It makes me think that it might be a difference in perception. Not just a preference.Regarding what RX8Pilot said about Arri Alexa, Another big attraction for us is how well everything is documented. As far as we are concerned, there is no "secret sauce" or other proprietary nonsense when it comes to their colorimetry etc. They publish all their matrices and transfer curves etc, which makes them a dream to work with from a VFX point of view. RED and Sony aren't so forthcoming and it makes it not so nice to work with.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on June 25, 2018, 09:49:20 pmIt seems like it is a generational thing (not exclusively, but generally)24fps was chosen as a compromise between reasonable perception and practical reality. It makes a surreal motion where your brain is required to fill in the gaps.25 and 30 fps were defined at the early stages of TV, but then we got interlaced as yet another technology inspired compromise. That gave us far more real motion that we perceived as 50fps and 60fps, albeit at half resolution.Now that we are in the mega-bit-rate-mega-pixel world.....60fps at ridiculous resolution is totally possible. It is perceived as hyper-realistic. The surreal dreamy look is traded for a bombarding of visual information. For some content it works well....other stuff it is simply distracting or otherwise ruins the show. For example....I would not even consider seeing a feature film that was shot/displayed at 30-48- or 60fps. It looks like a soap opera on daytime TV.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:47:23 pm
content: >I would not even consider seeing a feature film that was shot/displayed at 30-48- or 60fps. It looks like a soap opera on daytime TV.And this is where I seem to hold an extremely unpopular opinion. I would LOVE it if feature films were 50-60fps. I find low framerate artifacts incredibly distracting and disruptive to the photography and story.Don't ask me to do vfx at 60fps tho!

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:52:35 pm
content: Interlaced 50i and 60i are a disaster for fast moving objects, much worse imo than 30p, 25p or even 24.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2018, 10:56:13 pm
content: I hate the look of interlaced video. It's a nasty fudge and I'm glad it has mostly disappeared. At least as far as I am concerned.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 12:03:05 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 25, 2018, 08:20:17 pmI shoot and upload in 2160p30 not 25fps

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 12:07:40 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on June 25, 2018, 07:14:31 pmActually, no, you get a benefit without even realising it. Uploading in higher bitrate 4K to Youtube allows Youtueb to produce better quality 1080p downsampled content.You don't have to watch in 4K to get the benefit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 12:14:15 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 25, 2018, 04:58:44 pmDamn, I think you are right.The 7820HQ/HK/EQ have it, but the 7820X does not

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 12:20:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 12:14:15 amAnd those are Kaby Lake, and mobile units. The 7820X is a Skylake-W Xeon W-2145 with some of the PCIe lanes chopped off.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 12:33:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 12:14:15 amDon't bother with that. It's only good if you are OK with making video files with sub par compression/quality ratio. Also quality wise CPU encoding still is better that GPU, so if you are primarily after quality, CPU encoding on threadripper is the way to go.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:08:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 12:07:40 amThis is true, but small and depends on the entire chain from camera to end viewer. For example, my phone will record 4k video but an 18 year old Sony 1080p HD camera still looks considerably better in almost every respect.Human vision is VERY sensitive to temporal resolution, interlacing, color, dynamic range compared to resolution. In fact, the resolution is so hard to perceive that Sony's HDCAM tape format sampled 3:1:1 meaning that 1920 pixels were only recorded at 1440 and no one could see the difference outside of VFX processing. Many feature films were recorded on that tape format and only a tiny number of industry professionals can see the difference when compared to full resolution 2k.VFX are still done in 2k, even on 4k movies because it saves time ($CASH$) and almost no one can see the difference. There is an inside joke that if the viewer is worried about low resolution - you are doing everything wrong.When the biz was all analog SD - we still shot commercials on 35mm and 16mm film. Most people could quickly point out 16mm over 35mm even when seen on 270i VHS tapes. So I fully understand the concept of oversampling. Just wanted to point out that other elements tend to drastically drown out the benefit of high resolution.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:12:13 am
content: One area where high resolution really helps is when Dave shows on-screen material like datasheets, graphs etc. It's nice being able to read them properly.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:25:31 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 26, 2018, 12:33:16 amI've heard that but not tested it myself.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:36:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 04:55:07 amThere is nothing fundamentally wrong, The only major bottleneck you will run into is on the side of single threaded performance. It is a fast CPU, but with a modern intel CPU, nvenc really shines when you can get the CPU to around 5GHz. The issue is that with that CPU, it is difficult to keep from throttling when pushing over 1.3V.The ultimate issue is that nvenc is still not taking full advantage of many CPU cores, and thus gets a larger benefit from higher single threaded performance over overall multithreaded performance.If using NVMe storage, then having more PCI express lanes is a must to get the full benefit. While the bandwidth to the chipset is decently fast, it is also heavily shared with a wide range of IO, thus you will see noticeable speed drops when trying to use the NVMe SSD while also doing something like running a 10GbE adapter or multiple SATA hard drives. Additional lanes = you not having to share the DMI3.0 as much.The CPU is a good tradeoff between single threaded performance, and multithreaded performance for video editing, especially if you decide to try davinci resolve for certain post processing.The power supply should be fine, I had a thermal take branded one with worse components last about 10 years.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:44:22 am
content: Wanted to also ask, when will we see 8K 60p videosRED has a decent 8K camera and the video clips are rather small thanks to a rather low data rate of around 270-290MB/s, a mailbag episode would only use up about 800-900GB of storage.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:46:46 am
content: What about HDR? The camera supports it. It is often said that HDR gives a more obvious improvement in quality than 4K does. (I don't have a HDR display so I won't be able to take full advantage yet.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:52:34 am
content: Quote from: Razor512 on June 26, 2018, 02:36:40 amNVENC is in the GPU, not the CPU"NV" stands for NVidia

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:26:26 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:24:04 amThen why go for the LGA2011 Plattform? With that darn inefficient CPU?Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:24:04 amworking protection against overload for instances or that it won't go out of spec when loaded.Higher quality Components, better efficiency...You are the Electronics guy. And you bought an old double Forward, Group Regulated PSU when the LLC-Resonant Mode Converters are only around 20 bucks more...Things I'd get (don't know if to get in Australia:be quiet Pure Power 10, 400Wbe quiet Straight Power 11, 450WBitfenix Formula 450WBitfenix Whisper M, 450WCougar GX-F 550WQuote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 12:24:04 amNo, we are complaining that you bought a processor that doesn't make any sense or benefit at all.Its the same with the Ryzen Threadripper 1900x as well. That processor makes little sense for I'd say 95% of all people.The ONLY Reason to go for entry level High End Desktop Processors is:a) you need the Memory and populate all 8 Socketsb) you need the PCIe Lanes (wich is around 64 for Threadripper and only 28 for the Entry 2011 but 44 for the higher end ones)No other reason to go HEDT with an 8 core CPU exist.So to be blunt:A Ryzen 2700x would have had about the same or better performance for half the price.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:34:57 am
content: Quote from: AmericanLocomotive on June 25, 2018, 01:10:08 amARGHThe THG List is garbage. As far as I remember its totally outdated and puts an ancient, almost 10 year old, group regulated unit that isn't any better than what Dave has here, just with better caps into Tier one.And that is the best way to see if a PSU Tier List is good or not. Look for Seasonic S12II-Bronze or the M12ii_Bronze variants with 620W and below.If they are somewhere at the top, the guy making the list doesn't know what he's doing.The List at Linus Tech Tipps is much better...Oh and Dave:YOU don't have to do any Research.You have US!You could have just asked, Link to a shop, set a price and tell people to build something for you.If you had a Forum that allowed for "Thanks!" Postings, you could have said something like "I take the configuration with the most votes". And be done. Why do the research YOURSELF when you have people here that know their stuff around PC-Hardware in their sleep??

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:41:38 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 03:34:57 amBecause they all give me a different answer. Seriously, I've been asking for help in various computer and other fields as a long as I've had an audience and the result is always the same. All the "experts" have different opinions. Be it computer hardware, video editing/encoding, networking, web and server stuff etc. There is almost never a consensus.I spend just as much time if not more reading, digesting and investigating other peoples opinions.Your spat with AmericanLocomotive in this very post is classic example.Oh, and I can't stress this enough, it's fun to do it myself.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:43:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2018, 06:14:13 amDave, I linked you a Review with Pictures of the Insides of the Units. With a bit of Capacitor Manufacturers.It uses JunFu WL and WR Capacitors as well as CapXon GF.Has _NO_ OCP on any Rail and UVP on +12V is probably also not there.UVP on +5V is something like 3,5V or so, if I remember correctly.I haven't seen a decent 8pin Supervisior for ATX PSU. They are either bad or worse.And there is Voltage Regulation.Try loading this PSU with 1A max on 5V and everything else on +12V. YOu'd probably get something around 11,6V on 12 and 5,5V on 5V...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:44:20 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 03:43:06 amI'm done in this, I'm not going to argue.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:53:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 03:41:38 amYes and if you had a Plugin for your Forums that Allows people to thank other for Posting something, you don't need to have that Problem. You just get the one with the most votes/thanks and misuse that feature for other things.As for your Question for the Problem with the CPU/Plattform:doesn't support ECC -> corrects 1bit errors and detects 2 bit errorsdarn high Power Consumptionhttps://www.anandtech.com/show/11550/the-intel-skylakex-review-core-i9-7900x-i7-7820x-and-i7-7800x-tested/8But the Biggest Problem is the Spectre/Meltdown situation.In short to somewhat fix that, some OS crippled the I/O Performance drastically. Like 50% less than intended or way higher CPU Load when accessing LAN/Drives.the old Ryzen 7/1700x is at 82,5W and your 7820 is somewhere around 150W.An i7-8700 would have been around 100W as well (they aren't that great these days).And about the PSU:http://www.realhardtechx.com/index_archivos/SILVERSTONE_Essential_series_ET650_B_650W_4.htmlThe big black ones on the secondary side should be CapXon KF, the green ones with the cross CapXon GFAnd the blue and green ones with the thre cuts JunFu WG (blue) and WL (green)And one thing we missed:The FAN!On good quality PSU you have an advanced Sleeve Bearing like those Fancy Fluid Dynamic Types that are also used in good old harddrives for years.Those should last for forever. And outlast the PSU in some cases as well...While the one in your PSU will die sooner rather than later.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:54:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 02:52:34 amThe issue is that nvenc does not rely 100% on the GPU, it still has a CPU aspect to the process. If needed, use process explorer to view the threads that it launches. The encoder can only do the heavy lifting as fast as the CPU can feed it the prepared data.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:59:28 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 03:53:52 am.. have you actually used this forum? Like, ever? Looked around?QuoteAnd Ryzen doesn't have validated ECC.Quote from: Razor512 on June 26, 2018, 03:54:28 amNow awaiting reputable benchmarks showing nvenc is held back by a high end CPU when the entire fucking purpose is to offload the CPU for other tasks.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:00:29 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 23, 2018, 05:37:56 pmThis is often misunderstood, high CPU load doesn't mean the CPU is actually busy with processing anything useful. For example, lets look at the OpenGL call `glFinish` on NVidia hardware. This API asks the driver to finish the current frame, and blocks until it is done, normally games etc do not call this as they don't care about when the frame is done as when it's done the card will just automatically flip buffers and put it on screen, however when rendering or encoding, the CPU needs to know when the "frame" is done to read it back from GPU memory to local system RAM.Btw, I know that I am using OpenGL as the example here and the application likely uses DX, but under the hood the driver implements these primitives the same. For the sake of simplicity I have used glFinish as an example, but there are other synchronization primitives such as sync fences that operate the same at the driver level.So lets imagine the render pipeline.Application reads a frame off disk into RAMApplication feeds the frame to the GPU to encode itApplication waits for the GPU to finish encoding the frameApplication reads the frame from the GPU RAM to local RAMApplication writes the encoded frame to diskFor the application to wait the application needs a mechanism to synchronize with the card. I know for a fact that on NVidia hardware the glFinish and glSync calls, while blocking perform what is called a "SpinLock", which is essentially this:Code:while(frameNotReady) {}Run that code and your core jumps to 100% usage as it is spinning in a tight loop polling for the completed frame. There is no event for this because windows is not a real time operating system (RTOS), even the shortest of sleeps would be too long (the OS scheduler wouldn't wake the process up again soon enough) and performance would suffer. For example, say you're rendering 1080p, the card will complete the frame extremely fast, and the CPU will not spin for long, showing lower CPU usage, however with a 4K frame, the CPU will spin for much longer, doing nothing, but reading high CPU usage.I hope this makes it clear, that high CPU usage doesn't mean the CPU is actually doing much at all, 60% load seems high because it's just spinning for 99% of the time, likely the other cores that are seemingly not doing much are the ones writing to disk, etc. In reality they are doing more work then the CPUs that read high usage.Btw, I have noted that AMD hardware behaves differently and seems to have better wait logic, likely using hardware interrupts rather then polling.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:03:54 am
content: Quote from: Razor512 on June 26, 2018, 03:54:28 amI beg to differ, I have extensive development experience with the NVAPI, NvENC and NvFBC, the CPU spends 90% of it's time waiting on the GPU to complete each frame. A faster clock will just let you spin faster.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:09:16 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 26, 2018, 03:59:28 amno, tbh.I'm more used to vBulletin and know my way inside and out of that Software.Invision I sadly also use. Its kinda cancer...Anyway, a bit of Electronics porn. Something I can link and don't care about Copyright. Because I made those pics myself.Something not that awesome but still somewhat OKish:

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:29:58 am
content: For the thread that is actually responsible for prepairing and feeding the processed frames over to the GPU, how much CPU time is it using. It is not hard to end up with a CPU bottleneck while having task manager report a low overall CPU usage. On a CPU with 16 threads, a single thread just needs to use a little over 6.25% overall utilization to be fully occupying the time of a single core.This type of behavior is why you will see behavior like the CPU usage in fallout 4 dropping when you spawn a ton of NPCs, the AI is single threaded and the engine waits on that thread before doing more work.Beyond that, other bottlenecks can arise if in your editor timeline, you have effects or adjustments that are not multi-threaded. Not sure how many of those limits sony vegas has, but adobe premiere, as well as after effects, have many effects and adjustment options that are computationally expensive while also being single threaded.Those limits are at least the case when using the nvenc plugin for adobe premiere pro (though it has gotten really unstable as adobe premiere has been updated).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:40:24 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 03:53:52 amThe forum does have that feature.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:47:11 am
content: Quote from: Razor512 on June 26, 2018, 04:29:58 amYes, with filters/effects there is certainly a correlation with CPU clock, but for the final encode via NvENC there is little to no gain in having a faster CPU clock.As for your assumption that the effects may not be multi-threaded, video processing (not encoding) is an extremely SMP friendly computing paradigm. You have thousands of concurrent jobs you can do at once, one for every frame. The only part of that process that must be ordered is the final encode as mpeg uses motion prediction. Most effects are performed on the GPU anyway using shaders, again bringing us back to synchronization spin locks.Without actually profiling the application, it is impossible to determine if you have high CPU usage, or high CPU wait in spin locks, CPU load alone is no indication of overall system load or performance with this computing paradigm.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:54:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 04:40:24 amSee, Problem solved.Should use that next time you need to know something

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 05:06:00 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 04:54:18 amI remember you Stefan, you are that person that decided toargue that my ATX motherboard was incompatible with my ATX standards compliant PSU. People like you are exactly why Dave doesn't consider "advice" from people like you reliable. Too much of it is conjecture, opinion or speculation as to how things work, and are not based on empirical evidence or understanding.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 05:42:29 am
content: Quote from: gnif on June 26, 2018, 05:06:00 amYes because I have such a situation here. And it happens in some very rare occasions.I have a perfectly fine Corsair HX750i that works with like half a dozen ATX Motherboards.And I have a Gigabyte X79-UD5 that also works with half a dozen other ATX PSU.But the Corsair HX750i does not work with the Gigabyte X79-UD5...And its the same thing that people working in the industry say, that it can happen, though its a very uncommon occurance.And replacing either of those component solves the Problem.And they don't really know what caused it.Yes, I've talked with people of the industry about that stuff and that is what I know. If you don't believe me, fine. You don't need to. But insulting me for something that you don't believe, is that really necessary??

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 05:59:49 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 05:42:29 ambut you argued that a missing signal is just a "incompatibility". It wasn't just slightly out of spec, it was completely dead.In your example, did you measure the PSU to verify why it was "incompatible"? Did you obtain another HX750i to verify it wasn't at fault? Did you perhaps think that the Gigabyte board might be slightly out of tolerance and was playing it safe by refusing to start with a possible faulty PSU? My point remains, you have no empirical evidence, just your assumptions.QuoteI wouldn't have said a thing, but when you started telling Dave how to use his forum, and your condescending attitude I felt it was time to speak up.

author: pkplex
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 06:17:49 am
content: Dave really called it.. so many people with their nickers in a twist about a damn computer.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:32:04 am
content: Quote from: pkplex on June 26, 2018, 06:17:49 amBecause there is so much Misinformation, Bullshit, Lies and Fairy tales in this area you can write books about that...And now a highly regarded electronics person does all the things those People are fighting against...That's one of the reasons people are posting here right now...Epecially in the PSU area. Like the lie of "Single Rail is better, Multi Rail is garbage*", bigger fans equal lower noise (no it doesn't!), Efficiency equals quality (well, there is a bit truth to that -> there are no good quality 80plus Bronze or worse PSU right now. The best bronze ones are just somewhat OK right now because Gold is like 2,5€ more in manufacturing), that the manufacturer is the most important thing...Or stuff like you need a 750W PSU for an office PC (well, in ATX Formfactor, there are no really good PSU under 400W), should be loaded only up to 50% (when the good PSU are rated at continuous power at higher ambient temperatures, usually 40°C, sometimes 50°C. The Cheaper ones are only rated for like 30-35°C Ambient).When we come to Graphics Cards and CPUs, it doesn't get any better.The worst thing I've seen is that people believe that nVidia Cards are for Intel and don't work well in AMD Systems or vice versa with AMD Cards -> people believe that they only work well in AMD Systems...*That is essentially Multi Rail in a PSU:(Pic of a 14.95€ PSU)A Shunt Resistor or a coil per Rail, a wire per Rail to the supervisior (or something like that like an LM393). And just some way to limit the current for a certain set of cables. And switches it off, if it is over the set limit.PS: For the Electronic Nuts who want to learn about Power Supply Stuff and are pretty bored, google Texas Instruments UCD3138A.And that thing is already used in some higher end Power Supplys today. And has has a 31,25MHz ARM7 Core...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:40:07 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 05:42:29 amDunno what is with Gigabyte but I stumbled on several of their motherboards (most I had) which had issues with PSU compatibility. Like not starting at all or starting with all or most of USB ports not working. Or Voltages displayed in bios being random crap, not just off but complete nonsense. Really weird, the weirdest part is that if I switched incompatible PSUs between such 2 mobos, both started working fine.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 08:13:26 am
content: Quote from: gnif on June 26, 2018, 05:59:49 amI might have been wrong in that case.And might have my mind at the Corsair <-> Gigabyte Situation because as far as I remember that was a fairly recently occurance for me at the time.Quote from: gnif on June 26, 2018, 05:59:49 amNo, because I don't have no warranty on any PSU I have here right now.What I remember is that a somewhat similarlish PSU, though a bit different Plattform worked -> Corsair RM650iAnd I have talked to people who were at the time responsible in PSU Development at a PSU Manufacturer. And they told me that that stuff might happen. They said that it had to do with the with the Tolerance of the PSU and the Board, if both are a bit borderline "in the right way"; it doesn't work.And I think I've seen a similar configuration by someone else in a Forum in their Signature. So its not a general incompatibility just something that happened with the Board and the PSU I have.I have two other PSU that use a similar Infineon LLC-Resonant mode Controller as the Corsair, both don't have that Problem. Though the Supervisor is a different one...Those things are less common these days and probably something like winning the lottery (in a bad way).The usual Failure rate of a decent PSU should be at 1% or less.A 2% Failure Rate is considered bad and a major problem.And you need "the right" motherboard as well...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 08:29:28 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 07:32:04 amBecause I deliberately bought a cheaper PSU instead of some high end one?Wow, what a crime!Although I know jack all about Silverstone, they at least look like a legit company, Taiwanese instead of Chinese, legit presences in the US and EU, been around a long time etc. The supply I got has been independently tested to meet the Bronze 80 standard, which without knowing much about the world of PC PSU's sounded at least OKish. It's got to better than some OneHungLow no-namer from ebay? I just needed an OKish PSU, yet people seem to think this is some sort of crime against humanity

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 08:47:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 08:29:28 amSilverstone has some decent PSU, the Strider Gold ( ST55F-G) seems OK, below that, they could do better - much better.The Strider Platinum Series is pretty nice, though the Casing is on the cheaper side.Here some Pics of a Strider Platinum:https://img.tweakpc.de/album/lTMade by Sirfa, all Japanese Caps (made in China of course because of the Import Tax China has, it has to be manufactured there).Best thing is the pretty beautiful soldering (except for the hand made part of course)...No polymers though...80plus is totally useless though because many companys (if not all) do send in golden samples...Some even totally different units than they sell...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 08:54:17 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 08:47:41 amOk, so Mr PSU expert now admits that Silverstone make some decent PSU's. I can sleep better tonight, thanks.QuoteSo are you accusing Silverstone of doing this?, or just floating this theory to somehow back up your stance that my choice of the cheaper PSU was complete shite?BTW, the 80 BRONZE series is not the cheapest supply they make, that's the 80 BASIC.So according to you I at least chose a decent PSU brand name, and I went one level one form their entry level offering. Do you still have a problem with my choice for cheap PSU?a)one level up.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 08:57:57 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 25, 2018, 10:52:35 pmAll of that isveryrelative. Raw frame rate tells you nothing, it depends on the persistence of the display.eg. I used to use 50Hz monitors all day long, no problem, because the phosphors were designed for no flicker at 50Hz.Then cheap-ass, low-persistence PC monitors came along and anything less than 75Hz was unbearable.Cinemas project at less than 30fps but nobody complains of headaches.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:04:58 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 08:54:17 amIt's probably fine. The problem is you've published hundreds of videos criticizing PSUs in one way or another. It creates expectations in the viewers.Solution: Get it opened up on video (alongside the one you took out....)

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:11:06 am
content: @EEVblog: Get the MASTERWATT MAKER 1200 MIJ or nothing!< goes on a rant about Dave's bad component choices because I'm an AMD fanboy and you should have gone with Ryzen >

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:15:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 08:54:17 amWhy so Agressive Dave?!As an Engineer, shouldn't you want any information you can get about anything?!Yes, they do some good stuff.But your PSU is not one of them.QuoteNo, I'm saying that 80plus is useless you overrated it and only, at most, tells you that the efficiency should be around that area.You can't trust whatever there is written further than you can throw it.And they don't do realistic testing...Because with modern Systems, you have something like 1-2A on each minor rail.And if you're lucky like 5A on +5V at most.QuoteBrand is irrelevant as everyone has equal oppurtunity because everyone has access to many of the contract manufacturers and can order whatever they want - as long as they are willing to pay for it.All that counts is what you (as a manufacturer) wants and what prices you can get or make. If you want a group regulated unit that is rated for 25°C room temperature, you get that.If you want an independently regulated 80plus Titanium (94% Efficiency at 50% load) that is rated at 50°C you get that as well. Just a question of Price.Point is:If you don't cut cost on a good quality PSU, you're not able to deliver a competitive priced 80plus Bronze unit.The difference in Cost between Bronze and Gold are negligable these days.And that is why you still see the "System Integrator Level" units with Double Forward Topology and Group Regulation for 5V and 12V. 3.3V always was regulated independently...That is the reason why all the good stuff these days comes with at least an 80plus Gold Label. And at worst some decent 80plus Bronze units are as expensive as entry level Gold units.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:21:02 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 26, 2018, 09:04:58 amWanna bet the Thermaltake Toughpower has bulged caps?If it is the one I think it is, it should come with Entry level SamXon Caps...If I'm wrong, it is one of the newer ones with€dit:It is the Tough Power XT that comes with DC-DC but only has Teapo Entry Level Caps (SC Series, rated for 2k, not 3k because DOWNSIZE Caps or rather custom size wich makes a recapping almost impossible because you need 10mm 3300µF/16V Low Impedance Caps), Review from good old Gabriel Torres ->https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/thermaltake-toughpower-xt-775-w-power-supply-review/2/Similar Plattform to the old Corsair HX750 and 850, the ones that were officially 80plus Silver.But its around 10Years Old or so.The ironical thing is that its better than the new one. As far as I remember they were always independently regulated -> Dual Mag Amp at the timeOnly the newest ones had DC-DC.Problem is the age, it can fail any second now and its not that great by todays standards either.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:38:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 08:54:17 amThey don't make anything. Just order some already available PSU design with some minor customization from several actual PSU manufacturers. That's why one PSU model they sell does not say anything about another model. They may be made at completely different places.

author: pkplex
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:58:05 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 26, 2018, 07:32:04 amAnd you felt it necessary to add to the heap?

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 10:10:11 am
content: Quote from: pkplex on June 26, 2018, 09:58:05 amWas never my intention.I did just say what I think is what people thought about this stuff.So I can understand why some People are not amused by this public video on youtube.IMHO this Video would have been better as a Bonus for the Patreons, maybe unlisted on Youtube...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 11:23:36 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 26, 2018, 09:04:58 amI did, a teardown is in the video, it's exactly what I'd expect for the price, and a surprise of a Japanese main filter cap.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 11:32:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 11:23:36 amThere's a new video? Ok, let's see.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 12:24:25 pm
content: That's right, the more the persistence the worse... for fast moving objects.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:15:28 pm
content: JeepersAll this angst over a pc build.I think this whole discussion is a great example of Perfect being the enemy of Done!The new PC renders videos to Dave’s satisfaction, we get more videos to enjoy. Win win.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:12:29 pm
content: Dave,As much as I enjoy your exploits in various avenues, might I suggest the next time you do a PC build you limit your publication of the fact to a level of detail along the lines of this: "Just built a new PC. It does what I want really well and was within my budget ... and, NO, I'm not discussing it."Cheers

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:25:10 pm
content: Discussion and interaction is always good, Look at the activity on the siteBeyond that, PC building is something that will never result in all users being happy with every choice.A cooling setup like this would net you half of the users complaining that you have inadequate coolingThe best you can hope for is to avoid things that would be a clear money waster, e.g., those addressable RGB fans, custom sleeved cables and other things that adds tons of money to the cost while not improving performance. I have seen many builds where a user goes with 16GB of RAM instead of 32GB just so they could budget in more RGB.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on June 26, 2018, 04:12:29 pmIt's all fun and games. We get to see what priorities various people have. We get to learn a little about real things as well as myths and PC build voodoo.PC build discussions are like politics and religion. There is no end and there is no solution and many times there is no rationality.The last major PC build I did personally was guided very similar to what appears to be guiding Dave - practicality and a sensible pre-planned budget. It is STILL my primary workstation. I am typing this post on it right now. A 9-year-old PC that is still effective for my needs....SolidWorks, MasterCAM, Adobe Premiere PRO, etc, etc......crazy.If you pick the parts that are suited to your needs, you can go the distance and get a lot of bang for the buck. If I listened to the masses on forums at the time, this PC would likely be in the trash heap by now.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 05:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: Razor512 on June 26, 2018, 04:25:10 pmWTF?I know of somebody who went with a PowerMac G4 overclocked and cooled ~ like that... asking Apple to fix it under warranty. The matter ended in court.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 06:13:34 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on June 25, 2018, 07:05:24 amYou don't seem to have seen the latest and most tackiest of trends in the world of RGB memory DIMMS: Getting rid of the memoryhttps://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/6/5/17425330/gigabyte-color-changing-ram-aorus-rgb-led-ddr4-controllable-computexQuote from: Razor512 on June 26, 2018, 04:25:10 pmAnd the other half of the users might think that this is a still from an ad for sanitary pads. So much blue fluid...

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 09:59:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2018, 11:23:36 amIDK what you payed for that but you got ripped off, my PSU (XFX Pro 650 Modular) was sub 100€ but its light years away from yours:/EDITFixed some e typos...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 10:43:23 am
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on June 28, 2018, 09:59:45 amFWIW your PSU severely is outdated, dunno when you bought it for sub EUR 100. For EUR 80 you can get a very good 650W 80+ gold rated psu. Hatsinks inside it will be tiny as in Dave's PSU. But that's because heat dissipation is much lower.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 11:02:13 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 28, 2018, 10:43:23 amDave's budget PSU is 80+ Bronze, not Gold as your comment seems to imply. As what i could tell from a cursory Google search, the XFX PSU mentioned here is also 80+ Bronze certified (might be wrong though, because i don't know whether XFX would sell different PSUs under the same model name). Given that and the same power rating of both PSUs, you cannot really argue that one PSU is better because it has smaller heatsinks. Nor can Lockon Stratos argue that larger heatsinks are automatically an indicator for a better PSU design. (One could say with larger heatsinks the thing can run cooler, or possibly quieter with regard to fan noise.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 11:23:45 am
content: Quote from: elgonzo on June 28, 2018, 11:02:13 amI did not say that Dave's PSU is good (it's not). What I was meaning is that XFX on the picture is severely outdated and is nothing to brag about (especially mentioning EUR 100 for a bronze rated PSU) or taken as example how PSU should be built.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 11:46:07 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 28, 2018, 11:23:45 amWell, on the other hand, the manufacturer of this XFX PSU seems to be SeaSonic (the two sources i found mentioning the manufacturer for this PSU - KitGuru and Tom's Hardware - both agree on it being SeaSonic). So yeah, based on this datapoint alone i tend tobelieve thattrust the XFX PSUis indeed bettermore than Dave's budget PSU. And how could you brag these days without having a full gamut christmas lighting illuminating the things you want to brag about...?(Not that i would trust XFX or any of those other brand-only vendors that much, even if the OEM of some of their PSUs is SeaSonic or another of similar reputation. They could mix and switch OEMs on a whim across product families and series, and it would take effort to keep track of whether a certain version of a product from those brand-only vendors is good, okay-ish, or a turd.)

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 09:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 28, 2018, 10:43:23 amIts maybe old(i bought it 4 years ago) but its a whole other league compared to the one Dave got. Exposed point-to point mains wiring vs a separate board for mains input, cheapest possible one sided PCB vs double sided normal PCB........Sorry but that PSU is just so crap i cant even understand how Dave can trust it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 10:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on June 28, 2018, 09:50:04 pm4 years ago it already was 4y old model. That PSU probably will work just fine unless put under high load for prolonged times. Which won't happen with his current hardware unless he does some extreme overclock. What I mean is that good modern 650W PSU does not look like yours. It actually more likely to look like Dave's in regards of amount of empty space inside. My old 1kW 80+ bronze PSU I bought in 2008 looks about the same as yours, except it had longer case and somewhat denser component population. My current 1kW platinum is quiet different.Here is how even 5y old model of 650W platinum PSU look like. Recent models more likely to have polymer caps instead.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2018, 11:50:54 pm
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on June 28, 2018, 09:50:04 pmOh no, that's horribly unsafe and it's going to fail!!! Except no, that's the way it's been done for decades and is fine. Welcome to low cost equipment.QuoteHave you never looked at consumer electronics before?QuoteIt's not that crap. Really. It's nothing I'd spec for a machine like that, but it's better than what the majority of us used for decades.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 12:22:57 am
content: QuoteIt's a pc power supply. It's not going into space, in a boat nor an airplane.When it dies or acts up, you replace it; Done.

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 06:49:36 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 28, 2018, 10:44:39 pmIts stable under prolonged high load too. 4670k@4,5GHz 1,33V+R9 290X(i changed this one out for a rx vega a few days ago), when i got them the first thing was to fire up stress test on bot the CPU and GPU and run them when i was awake for 2 days.... (Followed up by a full day Unigine bench run to make sure that the VRAM is fine too.) Same thing when i watercooled them and OC-ed the CPU, and it handled it without stability issues.@Monkeh, @DimitriPIt is crap, there is a reason why proper PSU's look like what i linked(and its not because of its age). Those rock bottom cost ones lack everything that does not required for them to work, including all of the things that prevents damage to your PC.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 08:15:08 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on June 29, 2018, 12:22:57 amUnless it destroys the rest of the PC before finally catching fire.(nb. I'm not implying it it willorthat other PSUs won't, just that it's not always a single component that fails)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2018, 08:57:36 am
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on June 29, 2018, 06:49:36 amI wrote that about Dave's PSU, not yours.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 12:41:32 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 28, 2018, 10:44:39 pmUrgh, FSP Aurum. God I hate that design.Because its probably the only group regulated 80plus Gold/Platinum thing there is.I really didn't like it when be quiet used the Aurum to replace the E8, I don't like it more now.As for Efficiency, 80plus Platinum are just optimized Gold Designs most of the times (alway exceptions to the rule there are).The Reason why Polymers are more often seen these days is because they probably became cheaper and also bigger sizes are available.Until a couple of Months ago, I've only ever seen the 8x8mm 470µF/16V Types.But recently I see other dimensions more.Here another somewhat OKish and the cheapest 80plus Goldish on the Market. 230V Only of course.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 01:00:53 am
content: Quote from: Stefan Payne on June 30, 2018, 12:41:32 amReally? Are there left any ATX PSUs without wide input voltage range? It certainly has PFC, so should work from 100+V as well.

author: Stefan Payne
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 01:58:18 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 30, 2018, 01:00:53 amYes there are, but mostly in the lower price region.Because you can cheap out on the PFC stage as you need less current to go through that. But most of the 230VAC ONLY units are to be avoided, only a couple are somewhat decent. And the list is rather short.We are talking about be quiet System Power 9, Xilence Performance A+ und X. And that's about it.And there are also some Super Flower PSU that are, obviously, 230VAC only. But you can look it up yourself. Because it should hit you like a truck when you see it ^^With that you can spot a 230VAC PFC pretty easy, if you know what you are looking for.For example, look at this enormous PFC Coil of another 230VAC Only unit (Cougar STX350W)So you can use a smaller PFC Coil, lower amperage full Bridge Rectifier, PFC Diode and also PFC MOSFETs...

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2018, 06:43:06 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 29, 2018, 08:57:36 amWhoops, sorry. BTW if a PSU looks like Dave's on the inside you better get real PSU and throw that junk to where it belongs.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 04:39:24 pm
content: I get it now. I decided I wanted to start posting some videos on YouTube, so picked up a copy of Vegas, and rendered what would be 35m of video. 8hrs on this old clunker. Luckily I was able to source a six-core CPU to swap for the dual (plus it's a bit faster to start), so it's down to 2 now, but yeah, I get it.