Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 04:31:14 am
content: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11945406Apparently the charger in question...

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 04:57:00 am
content: Anyone want to guess at how this could have happened? Failure in the mains isolation in counterfeit charger + frayed cable?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:10:02 am
content: Even if this was direct mains, I don't see how you can electrocute yourself with this.And, obviously, don't "fix" cables with packing tape.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:11:21 am
content: I'm not buying into this one quite yet.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:38:57 am
content: Quote from: hermit on November 18, 2017, 05:11:21 amYep, she could have had a reaction to peanuts for all we know, speaking of which I find the article headline somewhat misleading and borderline click bait considering that in the article it declares the police are yet to determine whether it was an Apple branded charger or a dangerous copy.I'm no fan of Apple product but in this instance I believe that they do deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, if they are found to be negligent then by all means broadcast it to make others aware but If it wasn't their product then somebody else needs to be held to account for the defamatory statement.

author: PTR_1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:44:14 am
content: I'm remembering a click bait news article a while back about a bloke getting electrocuted while using his phone in the bath and charging it. Turns out he had the charger plugged into a extension cord and that fell into the bath or something.I saw the charger in this case and thought its not a genuine one. I'm sure the investigators will open it and see, but the news reports probably won't change. It also looks a bit burnt where the cable is plugged into the charger, or are my eyes deceiving me?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:46:44 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 05:21:56 amReal cables fail on the connector too, those nice design end connectors are terrible when it comes to the forces it's exposed to.However, if you use a cello-taped charger cable, you're pretty much on your own, even if that should only mean exposure to 5 volts.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:47:22 am
content: I'm having trouble visualizing the current path for electrocution...Is there something else that they haven't mentioned - like exposed, earthed, conductive surfaces or fittings in the vicinity?Quote from: PTR_1275 on November 18, 2017, 05:44:14 amYes, something like that. You know, just an insignificant little detail...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 06:16:12 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 18, 2017, 05:47:22 amYEP, what they describe so far is 100% physically impossible. We already had a girl die earlier this year from grabbing a frayed cord while in a tub. But that's current through the body to ground. Even if there was a current path in this case it would have to be across the body which I don't see happening in a bed. So unless Darwin was hungry and her family believed in "Earthing" meaning she had a grounded plate in her bed or grounded bed frame, their report is total bullshit and something else killed her.GOOGLING IN PROGRESSEDIT: EVIDENCE:Quote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:53:25 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on November 18, 2017, 04:57:00 amCable insulation does not matter. When cable connected to iphone, it's enclosure becomes under the same potential as well. If it isn't connected to anything, you have exposed connector anyway.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:10:15 am
content: You all seem to think that the ground connection on the phone will be ground of the house. How can that be? Any exposed metal will sit firmly half way between 0 and live voltage which is probably 110 volts or so.I am not sure it can carry enough to kill you but it is certainly enough to give me a shock on several occasions.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:21:18 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 09:13:52 amI think "would not normally kill someone" is closer to the mark. Too many variables to say never.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:32:31 am
content: Why arent these chargers fully isolated from the mains? I thought they were?

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:36:01 am
content: Power and ground wires short due to damaged cable -> isolation transformer (or lack of) in counterfeit charger overheats and breaks down -> mains makes it's way to the low voltage output -> no GFCI/RCD because vietnam -> person gets electrocuted and dies

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:37:30 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 18, 2017, 09:32:31 amThey are as fully isolated as you can make something that is not polarised and has two connection, one at 0 and one at supply voltage. Any metal work will sit between those two levels until you connect ti to anything that is referenced to something else.Measure it yourself. Take anything that plugs into the mains by a two pin plug and measure with a voltmeter between a known ground and any metal on the thing that is plugged in. It will measure half supply voltage if your meter is high enough impedance.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 10:15:15 am
content: I understand the Y cap but I don't see why they are merely investigating the cable, they should investigate the charger, analyze the root cause for failure and if indeed it is a genuine charger and the y cap is the cause issue a recall action. BTW if someone can afford a $600 phone why would they not buy the genuine charger it riddles me.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 10:20:09 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 18, 2017, 10:15:15 amA charger is not a status symbol.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 10:22:00 am
content: QuoteIf I may be so bold:A charger is not a perceived status symbol.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:08:04 am
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 18, 2017, 10:22:00 amThat's the same by definition.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:35:21 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 18, 2017, 05:47:22 amAt least one other article about/with this story, seems to be saying (including my own INTERPRETATION) that if she was indeed electrocuted (I will try NOT to speculate, until a proper investigation has been carried out). It was between the charger (which had a damaged/exposed partly open case) and the charging lead. Hence providing the two contact paths for possible electrocution.Disclaimer:Since the details (even in the link below), are somewhat vague and not really detailed enough, to know for sure at this point in time.http://cote-ivoire.com/2017/11/17/teen-14-electrocuted-after-rolling-over-phone-charging-cable.htmlN.B. I'm NOT sure if they mean that both the chargers case and the charging cable, had exposed "metal". Or only one of them. My "INTERPRETATION", is that they mean BOTH were faulty/fake. Hence providing the two electrical contact points.Alternatively, two different points in the cable were exposed, and again, that gives the two conduction paths.EDIT: Clarification:What I mean is, I am technically speaking "speculating". But I would really like to wait until the official reports come out, before reaching any firm conclusions.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:38:07 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 10:23:16 amNot lived but visited some.But this has nothing to do with third world countries, I see colleagues with $1 cables from Ebay instead of the $15 original cables and probably also the cheap chargers, it is a global phenomenon where people don't want to spent more money if theythinkthey get the same goods for less money but bring in a deathly device in disguise in to their homes and expose them to their children.Actually it is very simple no mains connected electronic device should be allowed to be imported without certificates that this product complies to the safety regulations for that country.Or ban mains connected devices from being imported by consumers just as other illegal products such as animals, meat, drugs, etc.Let manufacturers build DC devices and let the consumers buy a certified dc power supply in their own country.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:48:18 am
content: Sorry, my previous post was too long. Summary:Well worn cable frayed/fake/faulty in two places, hence providing two conduction points/path for electrocution.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:51:54 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 18, 2017, 11:38:07 amFew will think it's a similar quality. Again, it's not a status symbol.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 01:27:25 pm
content: It actually takes a very small amount of current applied in the right place on a person to kill them and this case we don't have all the facts. For instance, was she sleeping on metal bedstead and if so, was that metal in way grounded, so if the braid on the phone wire was connected to live because of a 2 pin plug then she may have been contacting both live and ground with her body? Its possible that her mattress was damp or had exposed coil springs contacting her and earthed metal?Fact is we don't actually know for real, what happened or the conditions at the time. Point to take away from all this is that its best not to take a phone or any tablet etc to bed with you at all and it should always be left on something incombustible, especially if its on charge and away from anything else that could catch fire should anything untoward happen We all know that these batteries can (fortunately not very often), explode in a small fire ball.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 01:49:58 pm
content: I read ebooks on a tablet in bed but I will never ever consider using it in bed while connected to anything. If the battery is flat I go to sleep and charge it the next day.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 02:07:05 pm
content: I use phones / tablets in bed as well, but never charge them at the same time. But even then, they recommend that do not leave a phone or tablet on, in or under the pillow, even switched off while you're asleep either for fire safety reason.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 03:46:47 pm
content: RIP Le Thi Xoanhttp://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11945406

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 04:56:34 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on November 18, 2017, 11:48:18 am...and those two places happened to be connected to different sides of the mains by a faulty PSU that failed exactly in such a way that both sides of mains were connected to +5V and GND, respectively of the USB output? That sounds extremely implausible. More likely is that one terminal of the PSU output was connected to mains active via the failure, and she contacted both the cable and another grounded object in the vicinity.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:03:51 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 18, 2017, 04:56:34 pmI completely agree with you.But in my original (big) post, I linked to the Local Police (via a news site), who seem to be saying that the fake charger, provided the electrocution paths.Bigclive's videos, often show potentially dangerous items, like these. So I can imagine some kind of poorly designed/made adaptor and cable, which can provide both electrical mains connections and hence electrocution.But you are quite right, a path to Earth is also a very likely explanation as well, I agree.As my original (big) post tries to explain. What I am saying here, is HUGE on speculation and TINY on evidence/details.So I could very easily be completely wrong indeed!Maybe she wasn't even electrocuted, maybe it was some other cause. Etc etc.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:08:33 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 18, 2017, 04:56:34 pmThe chance of either scenario are pretty remote but I suspect that if you stick the number of mobile phone users that have died / total number of mobile phone users and compare it to the probabilities of either of those two possibles named then you would not be far from an equals sign in the middle.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 18, 2017, 05:08:33 pmI was thinking, similar things. There must be so many millions of potentially dangerous fake chargers around. It is surprising this sort of thing, doesn't happen more frequently.I'm not sure what the figures are. But some of the time, even when you get what could have been a fatal electric shock. You live to tell the tale. But, sadly, sometimes luck or whatever is not on a persons side, and unfortunately, it does not go well.Different sources, seem to give differing accounts, as to electrocution. But some seem to say, that it depends on where in the heartbeat cycle (or whatever the proper medical term is, ask a doctor), it is, when the mains electric shock occurs. If you are unlucky, it then stops or changes rhythm or something. Which is really bad, unless you are given immediate treatment (which ironically means more electric shocks, but in the correct way, to restart the heart).

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 05:28:35 pm
content: Many years ago while on a course for LV operations (certification to work, live on 240 AC networks) we were shown a video in which a doctor said " If you are brought to me having suffered a severe electric shock then I will do my utmost to get your family here before the inevitable happens". Boy has that stuck with me. The sight of those cooked meat autopsy pictures sure teach you well.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 06:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 18, 2017, 05:28:35 pmI have heard, that electrical burns, can do terrible damage beneath the surface. Somehow, the huge respect that at least some of us, had for electrical safety, many years ago. Seems to be in decline, when you see many of the cheap items (often originating from China).I try and avoid them, for fear of them burning the place down, electrocution or just plain being short lived and unreliable. Especially anything which plugs in the mains.To be clear, I mean I avoid Chinese branded items (e.g. for sale on ebay) and/or fakes (such as chargers).A western manufacture's branded item, even if made in China, is usually safe and well made. So I use things like that, such as the original chargers, which come with quality branded mobile phones.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 07:29:39 pm
content: I think amyk spelled out the most plausablesingle faultcondition, thanks. It's most likely that the charger is going to be a primary regulated flyback with a single isolation barrier across the transformer and therefore no need for a second barrier across the opto coupler. Saves a lot of board space and money. It could have been a badly wound transformer that didn't meet creapage and clearance. For example, somebody posted a picture of a badly wound flyback where a secondary turn had slipped of the bobbin and was touching a primary pin, either eevblog or bigclive I don't remember, but I do remember that the seconary wire was just plain enameled copper rather than T.I.W. if it had been tripple insulated it would have been less of a problem. Another scenario could be a failed Y cap connected between primary and secondary to reduce emissions. We won't know until the supply is examined to find the failure mechanism.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 07:52:32 pm
content: Quote from: PTR_1275 on November 18, 2017, 05:44:14 amHe had the end of an extension on his chest whilst lying in the bath so that the charger could be plugged in. The fact that it was a phone was really pretty irrelevant. Socket was basically on his heart and all he had to do was exhale deeply to have it get wet and electrocute him as he was the direct path to earth. He deserved it, what a prick.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:14:41 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on November 18, 2017, 07:29:39 pmIf both sides of the mains failed to the output lead, 1. how did the wires get across her body? (is a very short current path still fatal?) 2. the phone would have probably exploded from mains. I don't see any exposed metal on the charger itself, so she must have either contacted the frayed mains cable itself, or her bedframe was grounded.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on November 18, 2017, 08:14:41 pmThe latest and most accurate reports, I have been able to find (in approx the last hour). Seem to say that the Police have said that there were TWO faults.The open (and hence dangerous), fake (suspected to be) charger and the frayed wire. They also seem to be talking about black burn marks, between (presumably), these two potentially live contact points.One example of the many internet articles about this:QuoteI.e. it makes no mention of Earth being involved, at this stage.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/teenage-schoolgirl-electrocuted-iphone-cable-sleep-died-le-thi-xoan-vietnam-apple-hanoi-a8056831.htmltl;drReleased EVIDENCE seems to suggest a two point contact electric shock (i.e. two of the mains wires, made contact, two of live, neutral, Earth, whatever they use in that country), rather than live to ground (something Earthed) type of shock (unless the Earth, came from the exposed mains cables/connections, themselves).But it is still allspeculation, at this point. Best to wait until the proper information (if ever), is released.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:35:44 pm
content: This story is a good argument for why we should include some basic electronics and electricity in the curriculum for everybody at the elementary and middle school level. In the last year Ive probably read at least seven or eight of these kinds of stories, both here and elsewhere. This problem with phone chargers appears to be fairly common.You know it would probably be possible to test chargers in a non-invasive manner by capacitance somehow. Then bigger stores that sold after market chargers could be required to have a little kiosk with one of these testers so people could test theirs. If there was some way of testing their likelihood of failure of causing shocks, people would bring their chargers in and test them.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on November 18, 2017, 07:29:39 pmAs I said before, I also agree with that. Because the early information is sometimes WRONG, and because some kind of Earth connection, can be involved in Electric shocks.But so far, the released reports, don't mention Earth at all, so it is just speculation at this point.Summary:The released (early) information, seems to point to a to point contact electric shock (or whatever the proper terminology should be, I'm NOT a doctor, also that is MY interpretation, which also could easily be WRONG and others may have their own opinions of the released information). But speculation that it could be an Earth related issue, is also highly plausible.I guess we just don't really know for sure, yet, either way.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:40:29 pm
content: What we could do with is more product inspection and enforcement of standards as well. Ebay has been a brilliant vehicle for cheap dangerous rubbish to travel all over the world. the chinese company put CE on it, you buy if from them, ebay don't know or care about CE marking so your left to deal with a foreign seller, well you just don't bother.No amount of training will help people spot dodgy products and to be honest we all know that water and electricity don't mix so the giuy that killed himself in the bath tub fully deserved it.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:44:56 pm
content: Some people believe it or not DON'T know that its dangerous to use electrical appliances in the bathtub/bathroom.The generation who were at least informed by Hunter S. Thompson's work have aged out of the system.----I think pressure should be put on companies like Apple to both lower the price for replacements for the original charger and make them using substantially more robust (thicker) components like cables AND add really good strain relief, both so they last longer and so that imitators will be forced to use thicker cables too.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:48:49 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 18, 2017, 08:40:29 pmThe UK, should really enforce the laws, and make sure that items, which people commonly buy. From bricks and mortar shops, and mail order (including abroad). Should meet all the regulations (and especially be safe).I'm NOT sure what the best solution going forwards, is going to be. But something should really be done about it.EDIT:Maybe the solution, is to make a law, so that only items that meet the regulations (certification etc), are allowed to be imported. I.e. they don't electrocute people, catch on fire, contain hazardous substances, pay all taxes (including VAT, import dties etc) and meet other sensible regulations.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 08:56:28 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 18, 2017, 08:44:56 pmI agree, that improved safety education, is a good idea.But putting the blame on Apple, because people buy dangerous fakes, of their (presumably) perfectly safe devices, seems to be a bit unfair and harsh.Maybe create a law, which forces companies to allow third parties, to produce "official" releases of compatible chargers (and stuff), which are then checked to be safe by Apple or other entities.A bit like the Original IBM PC and the "official" compatibles/clones we had, of it.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:07:52 pm
content: Even the official Apple cords are as thin as they can make them. They aren't that robust. I have lots of them and Ive had lots of them fail on me. Ive stopped buying Apple products pretty much now. Thats one of the reasons.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 18, 2017, 08:44:56 pmYes, in third world countries, electricity is still relatively new. The general public still doesn't fully understand how to use it properly and need to be educated.Did you seroiously ask Apple to lower their prices?That will never happen.Second, Apple's cables are good, but counterfeit products will always be garbage since that's their whole point, to scam you.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:14:06 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 18, 2017, 09:07:52 pmThose squared design connectors aren't great too. We've figured out how to do proper strain relieves years ago, yet for the sake of looks functionality suffers.Both Apple and Microsoft do this, by the way. Apple leads are renowned for failing and Microsoft had to do a recall on their Surface charger leads.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:26:43 pm
content: If MK14's information is correct then there are either two faults in the supply which is highly unlikely but still plausable but I suspect they might count the frayed USB cable as a fault, it's common sense. In that case the second fault is primary/secondary breakdown. The breakdown could be either from the +400V or 0V from the "HOT" mains connected primary side or maybe from the drain connected switching node. If that is the case that opens up a whole can of worms.If you divert current from the switching node to ground what is the controller chip going to do ? It's going to increase the primary ON time to put more energy into the primary widing to get regulation and where does that energy go ? it goes through the unfortunate victim in this case and NOT the secondary side. Switching frequency is likely going to be 100kHz or so to get the transformer size down and the human body would not detect the current because it's high freqency AKA small Tesla coil. It could result in a serious RF burn perhaps. It's another single condition fault that could occur.EDIT: You don't need a direct ground connection for current to flow at 100kHz just capacitance.EDIT: One of the corner pins on the primary side of the transformer is going to be "HOT" and if you've got a splipped seconary turn it could well short to a corner pin. Could be rectified AC mains or could be HF switching you just don't know.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on November 18, 2017, 09:26:43 pmSadly, what you just said, does make a lot of sense. Because they seem to have gone through the incident, without releasing themselves from the shock (not always possible, because your muscles, can be held rigid by the shock(s) ). Also, the reports seem to say that she was alive, and taken to hospital (where she later died). Tending to imply that they were badly injured (burned etc), rather than somewhat rapidly being killed by heart failure and/or loss of breathing function.If your theory is right, maybe because it was a "fake" charger, it was missing (or had badly designed) safety circuits, could have contributed to this incident. As a properly designed one, may have tripped out, If the victim was lucky.I guess there are many, many factors here. Use of fakes, poor equipment maintenance (frayed cables, open mains connected cases), poor habits (using chargers in bed), lack of RCD/GFCI protection and probably many other things.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 09:50:36 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 09:44:09 pmProperly designed, reasonable/good quality items, which are safe (especially as regards electric shock and fire hazards), can and do cost more money, to make and buy (common sense).But given the huge expenses (in both money and irreplaceable loss of human life, when it does go horribly wrong, such as in this thread), it should be well worth the extra cost. Hopefully, everywhere in the world.But it maybe could be said that the "third world" countries, can't afford such quality and safety. But discussion of that, would soon become too political, and hence not advisable on this forum.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 10:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 10:00:39 pmI'm not trying to say, anyone is safe or unsafe.What I am trying to say, is that safety, should be a much higher priority/concern than the item price. because the loss of human life is irreplaceable and very sad.It could mean that societies, have to accept that things cost more, and hence they can't afford to have as many items, as they would perhaps like.I.e. all things for sale (ideally), should meet a minimum level of safety standards, probably everywhere in the world.But such safety standards, can cost quite a lot of money to pay for, and payment for the regulations to be checked. Usually leading to higher product costs.EDIT: tl;drIf making it locally (the Neverlands or wherever), costs a lot more, but is the only reliable way to make things safe. Then that is what we may need to do.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 10:15:37 pm
content: We will need more safety because services like fire and ambulance response and health care will all likely be less available and more costly.Also, people may not call them, even when they need help, because of externalities (cost)http://www.bilaterals.org/?emergency-services-turn-life

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 10:53:09 pmBrute force rarely works, if ever. If that were to be true, countries with very severe penalties would be virtually crime free, while countries with more relaxed judicial systems would be crime riddled. If you look at the numbers, the opposite seems to be mostly true, with some exceptions on both sides.Even though the primal urge to be harsh is understandable, we really need to stop giving in to it if we want to improve society. What feels right and what actually turns out to be effective aren't necessarily the same thing.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 09:44:09 pmProbably not but that is beside the point. A good decent designed and built and certified psu can be made in Asia on a large order of a local company that will certify it to the real EU norms and be sold by that company locally. What we do not want is unsafe mains powered devices of any sort being bought by consumers without any knowledge and blindly shipped and delivered to such consumers.This is not only about mains connected devices, we have here those terrible green lasers with 100mW power blinding pilots on landing aircrafts and schoolchildren some lost their vision in their eyes for life. It is highly illegal here and is not allowed to be sold but on the internet you can buy them and they will be shipped. Same for illegal fireworks, tasers, guns and so on.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 10:53:09 pmThat and/or similar things would work, and to a large extent, already exists and is carried out in practice. I.e. If a bricks and Mortar Shop, tries to sell illegal/unsafe goods/items/services, the authorities will often, soon crack down on them. Shut them down and potentially imprison the orchestrators of the bad organisation.But in some less well off, parts of the UK, there can be these run down shops, who sell very cheap items. Those items can be illegal to sell in the UK (as in they have not been electrically compliance tested and do not meet the EU rules and regulations for items that can be sold). E.g. Fake chargers (potentially unsafe ones).From time to time, the Authorities (such as the Police), handle/crackdown such organisations.But the thing which seems to get easily onto the UK market, WITHOUT any real checks. Is ebay (and other methods), mail order parcels, from (often) China. These can easily be fakes, unsafe, poor quality, etc etc.They are usually extremely cheap, which probably makes UK buyers, buy them like crazy.At least I can truthfully say, I never, ever buy such items.Ok, some of the electrical goods, are so temptingly priced, and if they don't connect to the mains, or have potentially fire hazard lithium batteries in them. It can be worth a try, for some, otherwise very hard and expensive items to get hold of.E.g. I recently bought a USB to midi adaptor for around £3.36, including postage (at that price, who cares if it doesn't work, but reviews, mostly say it will work).

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: cdev link=topic=98864.msg1352759#msg1352759side date=1511039272Even without any internal faults, I often worry about chargers plugged into a power board along with a lot of other devices.It would not be hard for one of these skinny leads to be caught under another plug, with the soft, low voltage insulation breached by the Active pin of (particularly), an Oz plug ( the corners of the pins of which are quite sharp).It shouldn't happen with modern plugs where the first cm or so is covered in insulation, but Australian plugs are very durable, & there are plenty of the older ones still in service, not to mention the very similar Chinese ones, which (correct me if I'm wrong), don't have the insulation on the pins.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 11:23:54 pmYou're right, of course. But human nature is such, that many people will buy such things, in practice.If in Vietnam, a real Apple charger is $89, and the (might be fake) one, but which looks similar, and seems to work ok, is $8.99 . Also, if the country, tends to have limited amounts of money floating about.I can understand why many people, will buy the $8.99 ones, rather than the official Apple $89.99 ones.N.B. Prices are made up, as I don't know the prices in Vietnam. But I bet the fake chargers are a fraction of the price of the real ones (or there is some horrible product scamming going on there).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on November 18, 2017, 11:35:51 pmMy brother lives in Argentina and he mentioned how impossible it is to find original/official chargers for his iPad and S5 phones. The ones he was able to purchase were utter garbage to the point his iPad stayed unusable for a few months until I got some chargers from the US.As someone else pointed out, some countries do not have the good or even average stuff sold in the aftermarket.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:56:58 pm
content: Also many people would not buy an $89 charger "on principle".

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2017, 11:59:42 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on November 18, 2017, 09:10:24 pmIn first world countries, the general public have forgotten that electricity is dangerous.In the past, if you wanted anything more serious than a pocket transistor radio, you knew that the device had to be plugged into the Mains, as batteries just couldn't "hack it".Now, all the "devices" people play with are portable & battery operated, so there has been a mental disconnection with the idea of Mains power.Even when they use a charger, it still doesn't quite "sink in" there is a source of major grief on the other side of that power socket it is plugged into.This disconnection with the real world is seen in other areas, too.Young people believe they have a "God given" right to wander across roads, or even up the centre of them, & scream blue murder if they get hit by a car.Another thing is candles:-Everybody of the older generations were told by their parents that youneverleft a candle burning unattended for more than a few minutes,never, everput them near curtains or drapes, &never, ever, ever( yes, they were very repetitive) left little children alone with them .These days, every winter, we read about house fires caused by candles left unattended by people who couldn't pay the electricity bill (spent it all on drugs?).At least the third world people know how dangerous fire is!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 12:02:05 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on November 18, 2017, 11:41:05 pmThat sounds, really, really horrible.I guess that if there is very little market, for the more expensive stuff. Then only the really cheap (and nasty) stuff, gets sold on the market.Part of the issue, is that things like mobile phones, and Apple products, are seen as "MUST HAVE" items, by the younger generations. So they will obtain such things, even if the country can't really afford such items, and even if they have been sold, fake/dangerous, poor quality items.I guess part of it, is the modern, globalised world we live in today.In the 1900 .. 1960's, people lived perfectly well without, many of the modern things, like mobile phones, microwave ovens, and even TVs (especially colour ones), before the 1970s (most people around the world).In the UK recently, I was disappointed, to see a person, walking along, continually looking at their mobile phone. Then stopping for a few minutes and (apparently), sending texts. Why can't they just walk to where they are going, and leave the phone alone.But yes, your relatives (and friends), should be able, to buy reasonable quality and safe, chargers in Argentina. The fact they couldn't, is disappointing.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 12:14:22 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 18, 2017, 11:56:58 pmThat's true. I probably chose too high a price for that example. But that was to try and emphasise the concept of how expensive the real items are, and how cheap the fakes can be.This thread, seems to be highlighting, so many things which are probably wrong with modern, global (world wide), societies. Safety training, rich/poor ratios (as in available spending money, per person) being possibly too big on a world wide scale, fakes existing, unsafe practices in some countries, exploitative global companies (I'm not mentioning names here,Apple), and probably most importantly (as regards this thread), proper certification of items, so they are safe, on a world wide basis . Also many other things, I expect.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 12:19:32 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on November 19, 2017, 12:02:05 amGet off the lawn, gramps. You're in the way of progress.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 12:32:54 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 19, 2017, 12:19:32 amI was just asking for a richly deserved comment like that.But I don't really like the concept of "Every one must have everything, now", even if they live in North Korea, and haven't got a job or anything.I.e. I partly put the blame of this incident on some modern trends. The girl, must have been overly obsessed by the phone (facebook maybe), to be having it, along with the charger in her bed, with her. If you understand what I mean.At least in my case, the oscilloscope helps keep the bed warm, the multimeter is nice to look at if I get bored, and the signal generator, makes nice soothing noises, which help me get to sleep faster

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 12:34:06 am
content: From what I've seen, those cheap Chinese chargers often get nearly everything right; and would be perfectly fine, if it weren't for some tiny flaw which compromises the safety (like a track routed right across the isolation clearance.)Perhaps it would be a good idea to design a minimal PSU with very low cost yet sufficient isolation/safety and in the same style as the Apple ones, with the explicit goal of getting as many of the Chinese manufacturers as possible to clone the design 100%, thus solving most of the problem withhorrible isolation clearances. Transformer isolation is a different matter, but we could at least fix one problem at a time...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 12:57:01 am
content: Quote from: amyk on November 19, 2017, 12:34:06 amQuote from: amyk on November 19, 2017, 12:34:06 amNo, all of the components are bad too. non-Y capacitor, cheap PCB, poor regulation, cheap filter caps...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 01:06:51 am
content: Quote from: amyk on November 19, 2017, 12:34:06 amConsidering the talent some manufacturers have for eliminating safety features to shave a few cents, I think that might actually backfire. People know the good units, and don't realize their units doesn't have proper isolation or filtering because the manufacturer didn't want to pay for something like an optocoupler or properly constructed transformer.You see this happening in a lot of products, like the cheap LCR units, or some multimeters. They start out being properly designed and specced, but slowly some manufacturers start changing out parts that are often vital for safe, accurate or proper operation. The price difference is negligible, but competition fierce and the pressure therefore huge.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 01:29:50 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 19, 2017, 01:06:12 amWatch some videos on Youtube. They use the cheapest ceramic cap where the Y cap is supposed to be. Is it the right voltage? No, probably not, but if it doesn't explode instantly it's good enough for them.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 02:02:13 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 19, 2017, 01:40:37 amYou don't even need to watch videos, the link I put in my previous post has an example - it's #7 there:http://lygte-info.dk/pic/USB%20PS%20test/7/DSC_1477a.jpgThe back also shows the situation I mentioned earlier --- decent isolation except, for want of a Y cap, someone put the trace for it right in the middle of that isolation:http://lygte-info.dk/pic/USB%20PS%20test/7/DSC_1478a.jpg...although if you look at the summary table at the bottom of the page I linked, that one did pass a 2.5kV hi-pot (but not the 5kV, which is technically already slightly higher than the safety standard requires, so don't read too much into that.)

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 02:20:27 am
content: It's hard to find the exact videos where I saw them, but here's one.I remember others with even smaller caps, sometimes even sticking up on spindly long leads.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 04:34:37 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on November 18, 2017, 08:48:49 pmI think if you look, you will find that those laws already exist - certainly in Australia (as I understand it) and quite likely in the UK and the EU, I would guess.The problem is the that these laws apply to the importer - and for the online shopper buying overseas,theyare the importer. So, strictly speaking, they have accepted the risk. IANAL, but my understanding is that as far as prosecution is concerned, if they try to re-sell non-compliant merchandise, then they will fall foul - but I'm not sure where self use falls.Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 10:53:09 pmYou could be lining up tens of thousands of people for the courts.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 08:23:42 am
content: Not exactly safety related but a good example of Chinese design.Spot what they did at this ultrasonic cleaner PCB to convert it from 110 volts to 230:

author: wasyoungonce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 09:27:07 am
content: Gotta say...something is not right here. The Charger is 110V version straight pins NZ is 230V AC. Yes some motels have 110V sockets but usually in the bathrooms.Did she plug it into 230V? Yes I know many chargers are mutl-voltage input ok but hell that looks to be a very cheap charger unit.Edit: Ahhh it happened in Vietnam. Explain the 110V charger but apparently Vietnam is generally 220V.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 11:03:32 am
content: It is a multi input voltage charger. I have an identical one here in the UK.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 11:40:17 am
content: Check out Ken Shirriff's blog for a teardown of the iPad and iPhone chargers. A very good read. I really like the Dialog Semiconductor controller chips iW1691 and iW1699B.http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pricey.htmlhttp://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html#ref12https://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/iw1691_datasheet.pdfhttps://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/iw1699b_product_summary.pdf

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 04:53:38 pm
content: Expensive and overengineered, not uncommon for Apple. I'll go so far as to say if they used a simpler design with fewer components they might have gotten even better creepage distances and not require such a high density to fit in the same space.Twooptocouplers, seriously...

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 05:10:22 pm
content: I've been shocked by mains before, usually within the same hand, like two fingers. Even 120 can pack a punch and "throws" your hand away.Can a shock that covers a small part of the body even kill someone, I would figure you'd wake up well before it starts to do any real damage if you got shocked in your sleep. Given it was a frayed cable even if there was 120 going through it due to an isolation failure it would have been concentrated to a rather small area of the skin. But I guess circumstances can vary, like was her feet touching a metal part of the bed that happened to be in contact with earth ground and maybe only the hot wire touched her etc. Shocks from arm to leg can be dangerous.Either way it seems this happens a lot and I don't want to be doubting someone's death. It's sad that she died due to something preventable if it was better designed, if the story is in fact true. I'm thinking a lot of these either arn't isolated or are poorly isolated.

author: Twoflower
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 05:42:12 pm
content: I don't think that on the end of the cable you had the 120V (230V) voltage difference. That would be a huge surprise to me. Rather the bed was the return path. of the current. And this will probably cause enough current going through important body parts.The burning of the cable was puzzled me at the beginning. The USB cable is probably rated at least 1A. I don't think it would burn that bad running 2-3A through it. But you can't drive that much to a human body with 230V. My assumption the burning came from a 5V shortage. Which probably was there at first. The overload caused to make a) the leads of the cable accessible and b) damage the charger due to overload. If the cable looked that bad, how would the transformer insulation look like?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 06:18:41 pm
content: I wonder if a short could have been bad enough to cause the transformer insulation to melt, then it causes the isolation to fail. Kapton tape has a pretty high temp rating though... but who knows if they even bother with cheap units.It would definitely be interesting to see a tear down of such PSU to see what went wrong. I think these incidents happen enough now that it should be investigated more if the stories are real.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 06:31:00 pm
content: Who could / would do this?Quote from: amyk on November 19, 2017, 12:34:06 am

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 06:38:54 pm
content: The biggest problem with Apple chargers/power supplies is inadequate strain relief, they fail on both the charger end and the device end. A slight change in the plugs to spread the bending over a longer distance would make them last longer.Increasing the cable thickness would also go very far towards increasing the original chargers durability.Since the clone chargers try their best to look like the original chargers, changing the look of the original charger would result at least in the use of thicker wire in the clones as well. Again this would improve safety significantly. The materials apple users are likely pushing the current limits for that size wire, the clone makers are notorious for using even thinner wire.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 07:31:20 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 19, 2017, 04:34:37 amI agree with you (I am also not a lawyer, and haven't spent ages researching the issue online). There probably are existing laws, to attempt to deal with the issues.But I think those laws, worked reasonably well, 20 or 30 years ago. But in todays market place. Where Chinese manufacturers and suppliers, can easily place adverts on ebay, to sell potentially dangerous items. Without having to worry about expensive certification, paying EU/UK taxes, obeying any EU/UK laws, and pretty much without the slightest worry, about possible prosecution. Even if lots of people, die, because of a highly unsafe product.So we might need new (modern) laws, designed to deal with the modern market places (especially internet ones).E.g. Create laws, which put far more pressure on the internet auction/deal/sales making websites. Such as ebay.Unfortunately, what I have just suggested, is opening up a giant can of worms. E.g. Governments or the EU, can sometimes make a bad job of creating new such laws, and they can end up impacting on the wrong people, big time. Yet they don't really deliver on making the market place safer/safe in the UK/EU, either.Anyway, I'm rather short on answers/solutions, at the moment.Finding out exactly what really happened in this tragic case, would probably help, in getting to the root cause(s), of these possible safety issues, with fake chargers from China (probably).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 07:55:28 pm
content: The problem is that the law has no kept up with technology and the rules pretend that everything is bought via a UK importer that is satisfied with the product and resells it at their own risk.To be honest I would prefer it is buying from places like china was only possible if your a company importing and you have to be satisfied with the product and prepared to take the rap if it kills someone. There are too many people putting their fingers in their ears because it is convenient.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:12:02 pm
content: The problem is that it cannot now be policed at all.When items arrived from another country in boxed of 10,000 of the same item then a random sample could be physically checked, a single set of approvals and other relevant import forms could be checked but when you have thirty parcels from thirty different addresses in China going to thirty different addresses in the UK of which perhaps twenty-five are as they say, with the relevant CE mark backing it up the five that slip through could never be stopped.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:19:12 pm
content: To make matters worse, local stuff IS policed, you and me can't make something and sell it without there being tons of red tape, but China and other countries can dump all sorts of stuff here with zero repercussions. If people like us could actually put products to market without all the red tape it could stand a chance at competing with China while putting out superior and safer products.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:35:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 19, 2017, 10:12:02 pmBe aware that anyone can and indeed do, print the CE logo/mark on products but that does mean that the product is both safe and meets all the regulations and in fact in many cases, items would not require the CE marking / approval are still printed with it, which I believe is in the hope it will convince people that the product is qualityhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:43:39 pm
content: A CE mark done properly proves very little.Self certifying and creating the build file is absolutely the bane of my life, it is far and away the worst part of any design, prototype and build route.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2017, 10:48:18 pm
content: Precisely and it does fool the general public at large, they see it feel reassured that the product is safe to use.

author: KNSSoftware
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 12:09:03 am
content: I have no idea how many people die or are seriously injured due to hardware that has failed due to insufficient or counterfeit QA/QC, but there is an argument that it is probably a very small fraction, otherwise it would become the impetus for change. With so many things out there that do make us, sensitive bags of blancmange, meet a premature end, left right and centre, they are going to take priority when it come to remedying a bad situation at a legislative level. You can't fix the whole world; you just got to firefight starting from the worst of the worst.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 12:42:35 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 19, 2017, 07:55:28 pmI like the idea, that you are coming up with. Usually, if you buy something from a conventional distributor, in the UK, it is at least, basically safe, meets the regulations and usually works, reasonably well (but not necessarily, brilliantly).E.g. Farnell (Element14), Digi-key, Maplins, PoundLand (UK equivalent of US $dollar stores), Amazon (where they are the seller, NOT third party sellers) etc.Then somehow, ban/limit/control stuff coming in from abroad. I think it would have to be a much wider net, than just China. Otherwise, they might just import via other countries. E.g. China exports the dodgy/unsafe/semi-illegal items to a different country (e.g. Thailand), who then post it to the UK, to avoid a new rule, heavily restricting Chinese imports.But the above rule(s), cause a number of practical difficulties, introducing such rules. Such as, a Chinese company, might want to send initial product samples, to someone in the UK, to consider. Which don't meet the regulations (yet), because it is an early pre-release product.There are other major problems, with Chinese stuff. They seem to have no respect for copyright, patents, intellectual property etc. The items, can not only be complete and utter fakes. But they can be such poor quality ones, and so unsafe, that they can be serious hazard, in waiting.As someone else mentioned, Green lasers can blind (innocent) people and/or cause disruption to aircraft and helicopters. Yet they can be (imported), relatively freely (I believe).Unless the item, is an out and out, banned item and highly illegal. Such as real guns and explosives (which I presume are scanned for using X-ray machines and maybe other techniques). The item(s), usually pass through, probably without even receiving the appropriate customs charges (tax, VAT/duties etc).On the one hand, I also admit I like the opportunity to buy/obtain extremely cheap but nice/interesting (often small), bits of electronic kit. Such as DDS frequency generators or meters, for a few pounds or maybe £10, rather than spending £200 .. £1000, on the proper test equipment, for doing it.It is saddening to come across threads like this, where it has gone horribly wrong, because a poor quality or fake item, has ended up setting somewhere on fire, or electric shock hazards etc. Resulting in serious injuries or even death(s), such as in this threads main topic.I guess this is probably like in past, many, many decades ago. When people could just buy any chemicals they like, regardless of high strong/poisonous or highly dangerous they were.Then lots of people started to die, from being accidentally poisoned by these substances, or burn by them (acids etc) or explosions because they were incorrectly/unsafely stored etc.Hence tough new regulations were brought in, making it illegal to sell dangerous chemicals to the general public, etc. Hence the modern law/rules system, that we live in today. E.g. Explosives can only be bought with an appropriate (highly regulated) licence, for public safety (except small/medium sized fireworks, in the UK).

author: pstemari
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 04:12:13 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 18, 2017, 05:47:22 amLots of dodgy crap on eBay without proper isolation from mains. It's easy to imagine a power supply that outputs +5v referenced to the hot side of the mains if you plug it in the wrong way.Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 04:29:57 am
content: Quote from: pstemari on November 20, 2017, 04:12:13 amThat's not the problem. You can grab a 10kV power bus with your bare hands and not get electrocuted. The danger only exists when there is a closed circuit - a return path that allows current to flow.The problem with this scenario is that such a return path is not defined.As a result, we have oodles of hypothesis and speculation due to a lack of information.For all we know, it may not have been electrocution at all - but an allergic reaction to toxic smoke released from the burning insulation around shorted or arcing power wires.

author: pstemari
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 05:02:26 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 20, 2017, 04:29:57 amPretty easy to get a path to ground. Yes, you can grab 10kV if you're well insulated, but even a fairly high impedance to ground can be enough to carry a lethal current.Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 06:36:10 am
content: Quote from: pstemari on November 20, 2017, 05:02:26 amYeah, well, let's get back on topic:Just how easy would that be for a teenage girl in a bed?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 07:34:51 am
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 19, 2017, 10:12:02 pmthat is why buying on ebay from china should be shut down, harsh yes but how else do you control the quality of goods, the chinese will print CE on stuff galore, they probably don't even consider it breaking the law any more. Good should be imported by a company based in the country of import and be liable for the quality of what it imports and checking out any so called tests. I know it sounds like a big block on global trade but if it means stopping dangerous products made to undercut locally made products that ARE lawful then that is exactly what we need.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 07:36:32 am
content: Quote from: KNSSoftware on November 20, 2017, 12:09:03 amThings never used to be like this though, not until we started importing crap from china on mass. If you keep an eye on your local trading standards (and every county has their own) you will find a number of ongoing cases of imported goods with safety problems.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 10:52:15 am
content: Seems unlikely.Here's the cable I've been using to charge my phone at work for years (now iPhone 7, other previously). It's been like this for about three years, with no further apparent deterioration. It's the original cable that came in the box with my iPhone 5s. As far as I can tell, those ones all break. Contrary to popular opinion, I've never had any other Lightning cable do this.Maybe I'm going to die, but it's only plugged into a USB port on a PC so it seems unlikely. The braiding is gone, but the wires all seem perfectly happy.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 11:57:47 am
content: Quote from: KNSSoftware on November 20, 2017, 12:09:03 amIt's a small enough fraction to be a news item and provoke discussion here whenever it happens... so indeed I'd say this was a freak accident. To put that into perspective, a few orders of magnitude more people die every day in motor vehicle accidents...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 06:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 20, 2017, 06:36:10 amDon't forget that it is quite common for the Vietnamese to sleep on the floor. Making some kind of path to Earth, much easier and more likely. None of the information I've seen so far, seems to clarify if her sleeping arrangements were in a raised bed or on the floor. But a quick google search (very quick read, so details may be wrong or misunderstood) seems to say they often sleep on the floor, which causes westerners problems when they stay there in local hotels. Fortunately, many hotels there have western type beds, for just that reason.So by "bed", it seems to mean what we would more likely call a mat or sleeping mat.But as others are saying, it is still just speculation. But maybe "educated" speculation.There was another similar case (if I remember correctly), and they were (also ?) sleeping on the floor, and hence potentially (ignoring the pun), grounded/earthed.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 06:02:41 pm
content: I could have been a metal frame bed in which case same difference.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 06:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 20, 2017, 07:34:51 amSo you propose to buy this stuff from gas station at 10x markup? Before shutting down eBay, a very robust import quality control system must be put in place. Otherwise you end up buying the same garbage, but way more expensive.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 07:18:07 pm
content: I don't know whether even more regulation is the solution.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 07:32:04 pm
content: Years ago I talked to a man that had a fire in his mobile home. He told me weeks before the fire he had called the power company to complain about wires sagging onto his roof. They did nothing. Then the fire. The power company was there before the firefighters left and moved the lines. The fire inspector listed the cause as a faulty television.The guy said to me, "Look at the roof. See that black spot? That's where the lines touched. It's obvious that's where the fire started. The television they say started it still works and isn't damaged at all."For all we know this girl could have OD'd and the local officials are hiding that and at the same time giving her parents an avenue to sue someone. I remain skeptical.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2017, 08:01:41 pm
content: Quote from: hermit on November 20, 2017, 07:32:04 pmI think they had a woo-woo "earthing" plate in her bed "for her health" and that was the return. That would also explain the burns on the sheets if the arc jumped through them to get to the conductive sheet. Chinese shit + voodoo beliefs = DEAD

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 07:37:02 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 20, 2017, 06:43:25 pmYou seem to completely miss the point. What is wrong with buying from a "gas station" if it has been through proper checks? The problem is that when an individual buys something from ebay and china they have no idea of what they care buying. So buying should only happen within your own country of goods that have been imported and inspected or otherwise declared fit by a local importer that will be held legally accountable if that product does not meet standards. So yes if your local gas station has over priced products that have been formally imported and checked and your silly enough to pay over the odds for what is still a good product them so be it.....Obviously if your buying say within the EU where standards are upheld and there is legal recourse in the event of problem across boarders then yes you could buy from a neighbouring country that has the same standards that are trusted. The elephant in the room here is that checks on goods do not happen until it is too late and companies concentrate on churning out more and more "new models".

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 07:38:12 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 20, 2017, 07:18:07 pmWe have regulations, they need enforcing. It's become quite a topic in the UK with cut backs particularly to trading standards, sure make new laws, but there is no one to police them so it's pointless.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 07:40:57 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 21, 2017, 07:37:02 amThat's the problem. There is no real reliable system for this. All sketchy stuff. where there is any risk of getting caught and prosecuted, goes through fake companies registered on mysterious islands.The reality is, in the US gas stations sell the same Chinese junk. I have not heard of any precedent of them being held accountable for anything.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 07:47:12 am
content: In the UK I am told we used to inspect stuff on import, obviously we didn't buy as much crap from china. No I'm not talking dodgy companies. An importer needs to be locally owned and the company needs to come back to locally resident directors, no camen islands bollocks.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 08:01:13 am
content: Unfortunately and more often than not it is the regulators themselves who regularly drop the ball and put the public at risk due to their negligence, incompetence and oversight, dangerous stuff simply gets through the net until somebody gets hurt and then the finger pointing begins. I don't trust anything or anybody as being gospel and never did.Recalls Australia.https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 08:04:16 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 21, 2017, 08:01:13 amI haven't forgotten a health and safety visit to our company, they made a fuss over nothing and missed very obvious things...... Jobsworths.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 08:05:06 am
content: They could achieve a lot by stopping the Chinese government form subsidising the postage. The only reason that these things can get here for the low low prices is that the seller pays nothing to ship.That would involve our government doing something useful which is extremely unlikely.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 08:15:21 am
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 21, 2017, 08:05:06 amVery easy, very large import tariffs, or a ban on imports to private individuals. genuine importers can get given a suitable import rate, you could even have a system where the import duty goes up if the goods are not locally certified but I'd just ban non certified goods.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 08:18:21 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 21, 2017, 08:04:16 amIt is a responsibility of the company, ergo the people that work there to check on their own setup AND of his colleagues. We do have two checks a year from four designated colleagues, but that does not stop me from telling another colleague if I see something potentially dangerous going on.To take it a step further, as an EE it is my and your duty to warn anyone in this world when I /you see a potentially electronic related safety issue.As you know electricity is the most dangerous of threads since we have no senses to detect it. Gas, fire we can smell. Bad food we can taste. Electricity .......

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 10:25:14 am
content: I have a relationship with some ebay and Amazon sellers whereby I take their returns and mend them or bin them then pay them some money if and when I get some so I probably see the absolute worst of it and a lot of it truly is absolute pish.The thing is though that a lot of the stuff is shipped from the UK. There are three (that I know of) huge warehouses, Plymouth, Birmingham and Leicester. Certainly one of these is owned by a Chinese guy and his company have been prosecuted on more than one occasion, last time it was for power bricks that were not certified.These warehouses are stocked by ebay sellers in China, I am not too sure what that relationship is but the warehouse owner does not seem to own the product, he just rents space out and provides packing and local (Europe) shipping. He does not have a returns policy hence me being onto a good thing by getting stuff very cheap from the Chinese that I have a relationship with.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 10:29:12 am
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 21, 2017, 10:25:14 amYes that is the thing and why I said that any importer must be locally based with UK based directors legally responsible for the legality of what the company does. The problem with a foreign owned company or one where the owners/directors are not UK citizens is that it can become a bit fluid when it comes to trying to prosecute them.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 02:17:45 pm
content: Let me put it in another context:what do you think happens when some company in the EU imports and sells cars made somewhere in a 3rd world country that do not comply to the safety and environmental norms in the EU,lets say no airbags, inappropriate braking power, no crumplezone on the cars front, no height and material used in the bumper to lower damage to pedestrians and oh yeah it emits 20 times more C0x, NOx and whatever toxic stuff than the european norm. It will never ever get an official registration, right? Selling it or driving it without registration would be severely punishable in a court of law esp. when there are lethal accidents with that car.But now we are talking about mains connected electrical equipment, that can kill people that do not know better like children and it is suddenly ok ?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 02:25:34 pm
content: Quite, if you want to make an automotive device you are hauled over the coals before you have even made it, but so long as you print a worthless CE mark on anything else you are good to go until you get caught

author: iainwhite
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 03:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: Mjolinor on November 21, 2017, 08:05:06 amNot only the Chinese govt provides subsidy... the Universal Postal Union rules mean that destination countries pay much of the internal cost of delivering a packet from foreign countries e.g. China. Some of that money is reclaimed from the foreign countries, but not all. So effectively, we too provide a subsidy.

author: Bashstreet
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 03:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: iainwhite on November 21, 2017, 03:11:14 pmYeah why not stop farming subsidies too tax subsidies to companies etc etc big can of worms.

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 03:41:12 pm
content: Quote from: Bashstreet on November 21, 2017, 03:34:18 pmWell why not.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2017, 07:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 18, 2017, 08:44:56 pmApple’s prices for replacement chargers (US$19) doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. The cables are another matter...Your point about the counterfeiters is a really good one, though. Apple may be able and capable of engineering a top-quality charger in a 1” cube, but the counterfeiters aren’t.Quote from: MK14 on November 18, 2017, 08:56:28 pmI don’t think he was blaming Apple as such, but rather just saying that Apple is in a unique position to be an influencer in this situation.Apple itself already has a similar program: the MFi (made for iPhone/iPod/iPad and Mac) program. And indeed, buying an MFi-certified accessory ensures it will work properly, since it has been tested by Apple, IIRC. Of course, you will pay more for that than for an uncertified accessory, but the price needn’t be exorbitant. For example, the AmazonBasics Lightning cables I love are still a fraction of the price of Apple’s, and they’re better quality.Quote from: cdev on November 18, 2017, 09:07:52 pmAs an Apple fan (though not necessarily fanboi), I agree with you about the cords. Part of the reason is the switch to environmentally friendly PVC-free cables (at least, the switch to PVC-free coincided with the insulation becoming much more brittle; that said, a cable lasting only 1/4 as long is hardly environmentally friendly in the end). For Lightning cables, my current favorite are the aforementioned AmazonBasics ones, which are great. I hear the ones from Anker are excellent, too.Quote from: MK14 on November 18, 2017, 08:48:49 pmIsn’t that what CE certification is already supposed to do?Quote from: Cyberdragon on November 18, 2017, 09:10:24 pmApple has reduced prices on products many times. Heck, they’ve even been known to retroactively refund customers after a price drop (this happened early on with Aperture and then with the original iPhone).Don’t forget that on this very specific issue of phone chargers, Apple has already had a program where you could turn in a third-party charger and exchange it for a genuine Apple one at a deep discount. I wouldn’t be surprised if this incident triggers another exchange program.Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 18, 2017, 09:14:06 pmI couldn’t agree more. I’d rather a functional, durable cable over a crazy-styled one. Third-party accessory makers (including MFi ones) have made many cables that are both stylish and durable. It’s not rocket surgery.Quote from: MK14 on November 18, 2017, 11:35:51 pmI’m guessing you see a few things happening at once:1. The Apple charger probably costs the same or a bit more than in USA, where it’s $19. So let’s say it’s $30. This is typical for countries where Apple relies on a local distributor, as opposed to having a local subsidiary. (I’m well familiar with this because Switzerland used to rely on a distributor, and the markup was huge. Later, Apple bought that distributor’s Apple operations and turned it into a local subsidiary, and the prices went down to near parity with USA.)2. Some resellers will then sell genuine chargers for those $30, and various cheaper ones for $20-25. Because the wholesale price of the cheap ones isfarlower than that of the Apple charger, they will heavily push the cheap ones, since their profit on them is way higher. (You see this in Switzerland, too!!)3. Discounters like corner shops will only sell the cheap chargers, at whatever price they want, because they’re not authorized resellers for original Apple, and have no desire to become one.I don’t blame the corner shop folks; they don’t have the knowledge about chargers anyway. But the resellers like #2 there, I really hate that, because they know they’re selling inferior crap. (Here in Switzerland, I see some resellers selling cheap-looking cheapies for CHF19, the same as the Apple! But unless a customer asks for the Apple specifically, they’ll hand a customer the cheapie since it’s more profitable.)Quote from: rsjsouza on November 18, 2017, 11:41:05 pmYep, exactly.Quote from: rsjsouza on November 18, 2017, 11:41:05 pmTouchscreens are sensitive to power quality, so cheap, noisy chargers often cause trouble. Most people have forgotten that early Apple USB chargers (the ones labeled ‘iPod USB Power Adapter’) were too noisy for the iPhone and caused touchscreen issues. The ones introduced with or after the iPhone are labeled “ USB Power Adapter” and output cleaner power.On the iPads, the additional issue is that many cheap chargers are wildly overspecced, so an iPad needing 10W will bog down a charger that claims to be 12W but is actually 5W on a good day.Quote from: amyk on November 19, 2017, 04:53:38 pmThey would have performed this analysis, obviously. If the complexity is there, then it’s needed for some reason.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 09:41:15 am
content: A fake charger is obviously less safe, but doing a sellotape bodge on any charger, genuine or otherwise, could render it dangerous. If the bodge caused a short it may have overheated the charger to the point where the insulation failed. A better quality product might have failed in a non-hazardous manner, but by my reckoning the accident was not primarily the charger's fault.We had a case years ago where a customer had a small fire with an audio system due to bodged speaker extensions. The guy was screaming foul play at us, but shut up when we asked to see the speakers and their leads."As you know electricity is the most dangerous of threads since we have no senses to detect it. Gas, fire we can smell. Bad food we can taste. Electricity ....... "Not so, electrocutions are extremely rare. When they do happen it's more often due to someone doing something extremely silly like dropping an extension lead into a bath. Fire is actually a more serious electrical risk.The irony here is that in spite of the morass of regulations surrounding electrical work, the main cause of fires is screw terminals which have not been properly tightened, and this can arise regardless of whether regulations have been complied with or not. The mass of paperwork the typical UK electrician has to do may actually contribute to such incidents because you can't be working and writing at the same time, and if perforce you must spend a lot of your time writing then you spend less working. Rush, rush, rush.. terminal left loose. Fire six months later.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 12:25:45 pm
content: Any decent SMPS will have short circuit detection.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 06:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 22, 2017, 12:25:45 pmSo should decent audio systems for that matter.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2017, 06:25:16 pm
content: I seem to remember seeing fuses on speaker outputs on kit from the 80's

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 01:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on November 21, 2017, 07:59:46 pmSorry for the very late response, but your post does seem to be rather long, complicated and refers to a number of different posters. So it is not easy to reply to, properly.There are existing laws and certifications. But the thing is, that the existing laws/certifications are not necessarily enforced, when items are received (imported), as a small single parcel from China.Anyway, I guess it is the laws/certifications in Vietnam, which really count as regards this thread.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 01:39:41 pm
content: The problem is that the sort of crap sold in Vietnam and kills people WILL make it to the UK and other EU countries whose governments are willfully ignoring the problem. My local trading standards has been cut back, it is about to be cut back again, we might as well just give the country to a bunch of criminals... no wait?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 02:05:54 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 24, 2017, 02:01:03 pmIt's very simple really. No business to consumer imports. All packages must clearly display the sender and any business to consumer imports get returned/scrapped or examined at the buyer/sellers cost. Only business to business imports with proper documentation to be allowed and the importer will be legally responsible for any regulatory infringements. Importers to be based in the country of import and citizens of that country and subject to it's laws and judicial system.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 04:53:12 pm
content: Well yes that is why some of us fight for laws that protect the public. Like i said individual to individual posting fine, business to individual no, or you cap it. I dearly hope that it is not against WTO rules to ensure that goods are safe ? as it is China only gets away with it because EU countries are so lax at enforcing any import duty and those tariffs are set by the WTO. You can't examine and process every package for quality and customs, it is impossible. So you make sure they are imported by agents, they can then pay the correct duty on the whole container and are responsible for ensuring the products conform to CE standards.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 05:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 24, 2017, 02:05:54 pmWell that’s just stupid, a return to distributor-centric fiefdom where distributors charge absurd markups.I, for one, am really fucking glad I can order from Amazon Germany or USA, or Digi-Key (USA) and get it shipped to Switzerland.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 05:02:17 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 24, 2017, 04:53:12 pmHow would you ever distinguish between individual to individual and everything else without suspending privacy completely, or even by doing so?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 05:10:03 pm
content: To be honest I don't know but there must be a way. I'm thinking mainly ebay sellers where most of this slips under the radar (or rather customs and trading standards throw a great big blanket over it and pretend they can't smell what is under there because it's too big to deal with). genuine established companies could register and have their goods approved. but then even Rigol has European distributors, but if the product is good and properly certified it could be given automatic clearance. What needs to be stopped is all this shit that costs 99p ships for free and is either useless or worse dangerous.so say either the goods are certified by an european agency before they can be imported or they have to go through a locally based importer that takes the can for the product. This would induce importers to step up their pressure on manufacturers and stop them just passing the stuff on.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 06:43:52 pm
content: I recently bought some Li-Po batteries from China. These are supposed to be shipped in a specific controlled manner aren't they?.They arrived via normal mail in a jiffy bag marked Ni-mH.How about all packages from far east have to pay an inspection charge of say £2. And they are all checked. And if not as described or dangerous, the buyer has to pay say £25 for disposal. They could be made to pay the £25 plus £2 up front before goods are shipped to them, and they get a refund if all OK.Thoughts ?Ken

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 07:31:24 pm
content: the easier solution is not to deal with china other than known approved manufacturers and exporters, if they ship one dodgy item they pay a huge fine and can't export any more until it's paid or just have their licence revoked. My idea of regulated importers could be turned on it's head and regulate the exporters or manufacturers, if your big you register as an approved exporter and face consequences if you break the rules, if your small you take your goods to an exporter who is charged with certifying the goods and is responsible if they are found to be be unfit when they arrive at destination. Naturally that does not stop people setting up one exporting company after another but it does add hassle at the point of breaking the rules.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 10:36:46 pm
content: Or hold Ebay/Ali and sorts acountable esp. in cases of death, I might be mistaken but they are the intermediairy in the transaction, they profit from it , they can be held accountable in cases of fraud where they soon remove a seller from their marketplace.. They are not allowed and do not offer a marketplace for obvious illegal and dangerous products as guns or drugs. So why not hold them accountable for products with potential safety issues?

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 11:09:42 pm
content: Trouble is Ebay/Aliexpress provide an easy conduit for stuff into the country, for people wanting something they will buy it if its cheap enough, and the far east sellers excel at offering it at prices so cheap they sell by the bucket load. The recent sign gen with the dodgy power supply, how many do you think have been sold world wide ?. Probably >10,000. Cause they are all under the radar, so cheap they get thro customs, who aren't really concerned with electrical safety.Hence my idea of slapping an investigation charge on everything, and if the seller looses the £50 they paid for a sig gen plus having to pay another £25 for disposal, they will soon stop buying crap and look for better quality stuff. The word will soon get around the various forums. If you remove the customers the far east will have to change tactic, hopefully make better quality stuff.Ken

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2017, 11:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 24, 2017, 10:36:46 pmLet's say there is a specific type of mains to USB, 5V/500mA charger/power supply. But which has been poorly designed and is unsafe. There could easily be twenty, similar Chinese sellers of it on Ebay (and other outlets).So we wait until some unfortunate person, dies from the device. E.g. In the UK (or Europe or the rest of the world).So Ebay, then ban that specific seller, from selling again on ebay.I can just see that working out just great. (warning: sarcastic response from me).The other 19 sellers, can carry on selling the dangerous charger, throughout the world. The one banned ebay seller, can change their email address and ebay ID, and starting selling the same poor quality nonsense on ebay again.Until another poor unfortunate is killed by the dangerous charger, again.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2017, 07:42:09 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 24, 2017, 10:36:46 pmbecause they are unaccountable as they reside in offshore jurisdictions. That is why I keep repeating that the importer MUST be LOCALLY based with citizens of that nation as directors. The reason this hit goes under the radar is that the importing countries are incompetent - particularly the UK - in not enforcing the law and it's done in small transactions.A classic example is Daves uCurrent. Germans can't buy one from Dave because the German authorities are fierce in enforcing the rules and no CE mark means it gets returned to sender. The UK don't give a shit, so Dave ships them to me by the box. Not only is neither of us asked about CE marking, I have not been charged import duty on the last two boxes that came in on DHL. Now you can of course reasonably argue that expecting a simple circuit board like a uCurrent to be CE marked is silly and it is, in fact self certification is probably possible with no need for an external lab. But if it was a mains charger or something things would be more serious. Who is at fault here? I blame the UK authorities for not even checking that it is not a mains powered device, and they can't be assed to charge me import duty that should go towards paying to check all of that chinese shit we would not even be letting in.What happens with the chinese shit is that someone will have to get hurt or someone like me get hold of one, know the law and ring a charity because a consumer can't ring trading standards anymore. If I make a good case to the charity workers that don't know the law themselves they will pass my report onto trading standards (I have had to explain the law to them in the past because they did not know or care for it). Trading standards will then have to come and get the thing off me and details of where i got it. If it came from a shop they will trace the shop and the importer and try and get them removed from circulation the hard way with product recalls etc and the shop/wholesaler/importer may get held accountable. If the item came from ebay the charity worker won't even take any details and all I can do is complain to the seller who is conveniently protected by ebay who not being a legal entity in the UK are out of reach of the law.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2017, 09:52:24 am
content: Well to get this moving, why do't we all write to our MP ?. As Engineers our voice must carry some weight, and there are plenty examples to put forward, then let them work out a way of stopping the c**p coming in.We pay a lot for government, time they did some good.Ken

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2017, 12:49:42 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2017, 07:42:09 amMaybe we (in the UK and probably the EU as well), need to INSIST that anything which has a mains plug and/or connects to the mains (e.g. a mains voltage LED bulb), MUST be officially certified. Otherwise it is NOT allowed to be imported, unless marked as prototype/sample (or historic collectors item) via official businesses and documentation (to minimise cheating).I don't know how this could be easily implemented, but would look at the German system, to see how practicable their system is, for use in the UK/EU.Maybe other things (such as dodgy Lithium batteries, over-powered Laser pointers and other potentially dangerous items, should be included as well).It really needs reasonably simple/straightforward rules/laws, so that this can be implemented, in a fast, efficient and cost effective manner.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2017, 08:11:42 pm
content: I think in Germany basically if it comes from outside of the EU you need a CE mark. Which is how it is supposed to be. Of course the what needs a CE mark could be debated.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2017, 08:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: Kilo Tango on November 25, 2017, 09:52:24 amHave you ever tried writing to a UK MP? My dishonorable member for wellingborough and rushden is an old asshole that spends more time working out how to line his own pockets than give a rats ass about what his constituents concerns are. He has no technical background at all and only pays attention to headline grabbing stuff so that he can look good in the papers. That is why we are in the mess we are in, because politicians and not technical people run the country.A country is a system and needs system engineers to make it work. Instead though we have a bunch of upper class people that never really achieved anything only thinking about what tomorrows headlines will be. and if that is "goods now more expensive to import because of more stringent controls" they know they won't be popular. Unfortunately running the country properly is about doing unpopular things like making people pay for their services and stopping bad people harming society which comes at a cost to society but benefits everyone all round if you look beyond the 5 second decision to buy a good quality device that won't kill you versus one for 1/10 the price that is quite likely to kill you or you might have got lucky this time......

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 03:37:59 am
content: ...as if we should get the government to control even more how we should live...I don't want to make this political, but seeing those in the UK advocate for more regulation is a little disturbing. Heard of 1984?Just let Darwin take care of it.Besides, don't forget that this happened in Vietnam, and many more die in car accidents every day. The fact that it makes the news when someonedoesget electrocuted already says a lot about how dangerous these "unsafe" chargers actually are in practice.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 07:06:57 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2017, 07:42:09 amWith the way things are going they will all need the British Kite mark in a couple of years. If they start in forcing that it will really limit the import of shoddy electronics.Btw, when you talk about duty do you mean VAT + Duty or just Duty alone?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 08:45:02 am
content: Quote from: amyk on November 26, 2017, 03:37:59 amUnfortunately that is the typical attitude of the ignorant UK citizen and no doubt the ignorant citizen of any country. So you want the liberty of buying something dangerous off ebay from someone in china and killing yourself? sure go ahead. Like you say Darwin awards at the standby. I don't see how the government would be controlling how you live if they say they are going to stop you buying stuff that could cause your death or the death of one of your family members. they are not saying that you can't buy a phone charger, they are saying that for you benefit and that of those you may subject the phone charger to it must be safe. You are basically arguing to have your life put at risk.And no I don't know what you mean by 1984, I was born the year before that.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 08:59:21 am
content: Quote from: Towger on November 26, 2017, 07:06:57 amI don't think there would be a problem with maintaining current CE standards and marking. it is not unusual for standards set by one country or group to be adopted by others. How many different logos are there on anything decent you buy these days? I designed a wiring loom for a low volume commercial vehicle, the customer insisted wire was used that has certifications from other automotive manufacturers, why? because those standards are adopted the world over by car makers and therefore accepted by all importing countries. it would make no sense for them to have their own approvals and get that ratified in any other country, they simply piggy back on others standards who in turn meet or exceed the standards of any nation importing their goods and have already been cleared and declared as such. If the UK wants to come up with their own standards that meets or exceeds CE marking they can do that, I doubt they will as CE is already in depth enough and has protected us so far as we check the CE printed on that dodgy Chinese item is not just part of the standard silk screen and is backed up by certification.By Duty I mean either i suppose, any method for the government to raise money to fund the service that checks incoming goods for suitability. Duty in itself is a charge of it's own, you can have VAT levied on top. So typically if something is bought from abroad where VAT is not paid to the seller the importing government will levy it instead. On top of that they can charge duty which is i think a discretionary charge and basically dissuades people from buying too much from abroad and circumventing local distribution and manufacturing in order to unfairly cut costs or at least I hope that is it's function.If we truly want to put this country back on it's feet we should levy significant import duty on all goods from china and give UK manufacturers a shot at making the same stuff properly.The way VAT works in europe is that if you buy in any EU country VAT is charged at YOUR local rate (yes sorry ebay had to put their prices up because UK VAT is more than luxemburg), thast is then passed to YOUR government, or if you are VAT registered you can not pay the VAT and save the intercountry dealings. Ifyou are dealing outside of the EU then you are not charged VAT by the seller but customs should intercept the goods and charge in the case of the UK 20% on the declared value.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 09:00:44 am
content: oh and of course the chinese are really generous as not only do they sell at rock bottom prices but apparently they don't take the money and everything shipped is a "gift". Perhaps the UK and other countries customs need to wake up to the fact that the Chinese are actually not so generous.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 12:39:53 pm
content: BigClive could figure this one out.So for this to electrocute yourself you would have to1. have something fail in the charger that connected the hot side to one of the wires in the cable2. Touch one of the wires with bare skin - normal if you are sleeping3. Touch something that was grounded- She might have a heater or base board or pipes by her bed.Seems like 1 in a million or less odds. The article did say electrocution.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 12:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: iainwhite on November 21, 2017, 03:11:14 pmDoes anyone know how this works in the US? So a epacket from china lands at a port or airport how do they pay the postal system for delivering it to your house? Knowing this country the taxpayers probably foot the bill (under the guise of jobs or free trade or other BS) but I would hope not. Those epackets alone must cost millions to ship but yet you just paid 99 cents for everything including profit and postage. No such thing as free money. We should put a 5$ terrify on these things. I know I used to sell things on ebay but now my ads are just buried under 100 pages of crap half the price with free shipping. You could actually make a living just buying things on ebay then reselling them. Not anymore unless you are Chinese.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 01:33:15 pm
content: I too pulled out of ebay. Usually a destination country has a so called "reciprocal" arrangement, we deliver yours for free, you delivers ours for free. Of course no one actualy sells anything to china who incidentally have a 100% import tariff.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 02:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2017, 01:33:15 pmThat's just obviously not true.New Zealand for example in 2016 exported US$9.4 billion of products to China, while importing US$10.3 billion. Imports from China doubled from 2007 to 2016, while exports to China QUADRUPLED in the same time period.It is likely that NZ will sell more to China than it buys soon, if not already in 2017.China is New Zealand’s second-largest trading partner for exports and only third-largest for imports. In the year ended June 2016, 17 percent of NZs goods and services exports went to China while 16 percent of NZ's goods and services imports came from China.NZ, incidentally, have had a Free Trade Agreement with China since 2008, so your 100% tarrif point is not true either.The UK would be free to do the same if and when it leaves the EU.

author: iainwhite
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 02:47:26 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on November 26, 2017, 12:49:11 pmIt is a complex system but in simple terms, the Chinese postal service pays what are called "Terminal dues" to the US Postal service to deliver packets.The problem is that these dues are not a flat rate - they are calculated based on categories assigned to each country - Industrialized countries (e.g. most EU countries) are in the top group and pay most. China is categorized in (I think) the third group as a 'Transitional economy' and pays much less. This is because historically China was considered to be deserving of a subsidy on its mail to help it develop.Even though China is now a strong economy, they understandably lobby to keep rates low. The rates are set by an international body called the Universal Postal Union (an agency of the United Nations), not by the USA.If you are a glutton for punishment, read more here:http://www.jcampbell.com/UPU-TDs/index.html

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 03:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2017, 08:45:02 amIt is a book/movie(s) (by George Orwell) about what can happen, if rules are taken to crazy extremes and the resultant society.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Fourhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four_(1984_film)

author: iainwhite
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 03:09:27 pm
content: China - EU trade figures are here:http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/china/About 2:1 in China's favor for goods but services are EU-positive. So not quite as lopsided as some might think.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 04:11:04 pm
content: While a given country's overall trade with China may be somewhat in balance, how much of those exports to China are sent by mail?

author: iainwhite
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 04:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on November 26, 2017, 04:11:04 pmProbably very few, as the mail/'terminal charges' issue creates a huge distortion in the market for small-packet size items.It is cheaper to send a packet from China to the US than for me to send a packet from my home in CT to a US address in a neighboring state.My comment about trade was more to counter the perception that the trade with China is all "one-way" - it generally isn't, although it certainlyisfor small packets under 4 pounds.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 06:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: iainwhite on November 26, 2017, 03:09:27 pmSo like i said we don't sent as much mail to china as they send to us. Chinese imports from other countries at not of the same type they export to us.

author: 6PTsocket
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 06:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 18, 2017, 06:05:01 amJust how do you ground a non conductive plastic case? I have never seen a ground connection on a charger, they are all 2 prong. That is hot and neutral in North America and 220( both sides off ground) in most of the rest of the world.Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 07:42:52 pm
content: OMG! "Ban this, forbid that"What you need to ban is idiots who do stupid sh*t with mains-connected gear. No amount of technical measures will prevent determined enough idiots from doing stupid things!I'm really sorry to hear about what happened, but the reality is out there for everyone with eyes to see - if you do enough stupid sh*t with dangerous things, it's only a matter of time until you get hurt. It applies not just to electronics, but to other things as well.

author: orin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 07:51:01 pm
content: Speaking of conterfeit junk, this came over "The Hacker News" email list today:https://thehackernews.com/2017/11/counterfeit-product-websites.htmlOver 20,500 domain names seized...

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 07:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: orin on November 28, 2017, 07:51:01 pmBetter do a quick check and see if fleabay is till on line.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 09:14:10 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on November 28, 2017, 07:42:52 pmNot really. I just got a notification from our trading standards about basically anything and everything and be careful and be your own agency for checking what you buy conforms to the rules because oh my god shock horror unsafe toys are being sold for people to buy for xmas and we are talking about wheels that will fall of toy cars and trains and can be ingested because it is muck from china that should never have got here. There are no more standards because there is no more control over the import of this junk.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 09:40:05 pm
content: I agree, you can only go so far with these things, but people will take unnecessary risks with things even if you warn them about the dangers. In the end it has to come down to a mixture of sensible measures to prevent any accidental contact with potentially lethal voltages in normal day to day to use. The user also has to take sensible precautions as well when using anything that is plugged into a live supply and using leads with frayed and exposed conductors is a risk that need not be taken as charging leads are inexpensive and apart from the personal injury point of view, there exists the potential to damage the their expensive equipment due to short circuits etc, be it an iPhone, iPad or anything.Common sense should kick in, of course this was a tragic incident and my heart and feelings go out her friends and family, but that does not alter that she took a risk, along with many others I suspect who go to bed with their phone under the pillows etc even though it is a well known fact that these devices can and have been known to overheat and burst into flames, the same has been know to happen with e-cigarettes as well.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 09:50:45 pm
content: The problem is the wire is carrying a low voltage, the connector is made of exposed metal, the contacts are not exactly made inaccessible. The tragedy is in the fact that clearly the insulation between input and output has broken down. There in fact a reason why a transformer is in there in the first place, it's for galvanic isolation..... and there are standards for these things. Not all standards were dreamt up to make manufacturing stuff impossible.... some of them are basic common sense that must be followed no matter the cost.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 09:44:21 am
content: In America its always somebody elses fault. Who do we blame? It's not the fault of the florida shooter it was the cop that didn't go inside. The story isn't that we got caught doing something bad it's that someone leaked the story and that person is to blame.The result is everything gets restricted and taken away because one person died being stupid. Unless it's guns, then the solution is more guns.I made toast with my toaster in the bath tub to save time getting ready in the morning (10 youtube Life hacks that will save you time! )and I'm going to sue the electric company, youtube, and the maker of the toaster for not a having the warning in big enough font. Also the water company and the bathtub maker and the people that installed it. It's everyone else's fault but mine.For once I want to see a headline : "Man dies from being stupid" or the "Dangers of being willfully ignorant or uneducated"-Instead the news reads:The parents of the man (the makers of his brain) commented "It's not our fault it's evolutions fault for not making our DNA grow a bigger brain. It's also gods fault for not performing a miracle and saving him" God could not be reached for comment. The great grand children of Charles Darwin assured the public "We are looking into the problem and the conversation needs to be about Edison vs. westing house electricity. We need to start having a conversation" Republicans responded "Our hearts and prayers go out to the victims since this is caused by Obama's job killing regulations. JERBS: TEY TOOK OURS" We also interviewed an average American what he thought of the issue: he just started shouting "911 BUILD THE WALL! LOCK HER UP LOCK HER UP JERBS!!!" he was then arrested for being drunk in public.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 09:56:23 am
content: You have resurrected a three month old thread to have a political rant ?

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 10:08:29 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 10, 2018, 09:56:23 amMy "show new replies to your posts" button has no concept of time. To it this is new. I blame the programmers of the software for not putting a warning up that this could happen. I thought my "God could not be reached for comment" line was funny. Nothing? Not really politics but the media coverage which is what this thread is all about. Old threads need love to!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 10:18:20 am
content: haha, yes your post is somewhat humorous but I'm sure after 3 months no one is really interested anymore or this thread would be 50 pages long by now.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 09:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 10, 2018, 10:18:20 amI've seen a a lot of threads necroed and people start replying to the old posts (sometimes so old the poster they replied to could be gone) instead of the post that necroed it. It's like they don't even look *cough-cough*.If it's not caught within the end of the page, it's fully resurrected.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 09:27:42 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 10, 2018, 09:10:48 pmNot like I'm trying to debate with someone who's last youtube post was 7 years ago about a topic that has come gone came back and died again.I wonder what happened with the thread about someone trying to make a payphone into a MP3 player. I saw that thread when I was searching for daves video about taking apart the yellow telephone today. Some people in the thread told a total n00b who's never used a soldering iron that they could build that in 5 minutes easy with an Arduino or something ridiculous. OKI wonder what the first thread was that wasn't rules or a sticky. I like reading posts from the people who have been doing this hobby for a few months and think they know everything because they have no idea how complex things are. Worst offenders are 20 year old kids on youtube that get an SDRdongle and think that its a 800$ hackRF and how they can just start making their own GSM base station with it and start "hacking because its cool". Then people start asking real questions and instead of saying "I don't know" they start using terms they read on Wikipedia telling them "everything is hackable". OK hack an old VCR into your own TV transmitter since they both relate to TV. Should only take five minutes while you learn how to solder.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 09:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 10, 2018, 09:10:48 pmHahaha... Yes, necroposting is something recurrent around here. I think the lead in resurrections was the FTDI thread - folks posting there months after to rehash the same beaten arguments...

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:02:41 pm
content: Over on the Microchip forums, the oldest thread resurrection I have personally witnessed was nine years later:http://www.microchip.com/forums/FindPost/808632

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:06:03 pm
content: That is possibly understandable as people use keywords to search for specific problems and turn up old threads. On here after 6 months there is a warning before you post that the last reply was over 6 months ago.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:21:29 pm
content: And this is a good thing. One forum usually auto-locks threads older than "X" - this can be good for sanity but sometimes detrimental.For example,this threadI opened several years ago keeps being reopened but still with relevant information.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:23:29 pm
content: yes but the thread we are in now serves no purpose anymore and has gone completely off topic.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:16:38 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on March 11, 2018, 09:27:42 amJust plug an antenna into the RF output. No soldering needed. The range is going to be very short but it would transmit.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 08:32:07 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 11, 2018, 10:21:29 pmI never quite understood the problem with necroposting, as long as it's about the same subject. It's a lot better than to spawn the same thread endlessly, repeating things ad nauseum. It seems to be a lot better to have an older thread resurrected and extended than to have a plethora of partial threads.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 09:57:01 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 12, 2018, 08:32:07 amOne of the issues I see is to keep the "updated threads" queue free from discussions such as this one that have gone completely off-topic - the title becomes quite misleading for the passersby.I don't see anything wrong is posts are still relevant.On that note, I will go on radio silence on this thread.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 11:48:00 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 12, 2018, 08:32:07 amSome people forget that not everyone reads every single thread on a forum and they might find a subject interesting because it's the first time they have read it. I will often not post for a month then comeback and press "new posts to your replies". Whats good about forums is that it keeps all the old stuff. Or they call you a troll if you talk about a subject that someone already covered a week ago, but you have never seen it because you don't read the forum all day every day. Its also impossible to read all the posts in a 30 page thread in a reasonable amount of time.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 11, 2018, 10:23:29 pmThen lock it, you're the admin