That gap... (between university and real world electronics) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 04:12:26 pm
content: Lately I've come to realize that 4 years of EE in university teaches you a lot of things except real world experience and real world design decisions. I get the reasons behind the study program, but that still leaves me frustrated. ()It’s like you know a lot, but when it comes to real world design you know nothing. Yes I can read, I can acquire all information I need. But when it comes to the actual design I find myself lacking the knowledge to make practical decisions. That’s still without talking about real world design experience which is another gap to fill. An example is the tantalum capacitor topic I just started. And another will be shortly about circuit protection in a USB circuit. The thing is that I want to know why I should do what I should do. I think that only then you can make educated decisions about for example circuit functionality, protection, etc vs. costs. Otherwise you’re just following rules of thumb with either the risk of over-engineering something out of precaution or simply not knowing what you’re doing at all.So for step one "just design something” is the key here. That’s something I’m getting on to, yet due to personal circumstances I am unable to spend much time on electronics outside study and/or work, the latter being restricted to a few days a week. So the experience must come during actual design and that’s precisely when I feel myself lacking something. I know this forum exists also to ask those kind of (design) questions, but it does leave me feeling like I cannot really contribute outside theoretical knowledge and only just read or ask lots of questions.I wonder how many of you have experienced the same thing. How did you grow past that? Any advise maybe?Sorry for the personal rant. This frustration creeps up on me big time lately, so I thought it's time to turn it into something useful to get forward

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 04:32:32 pm
content: I think the gap is between higher education and the real world in general, not just electronics.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 04:44:46 pm
content: As a student I also think that the gap between uni and real world electronics design is to big.You can educate yourself by reading application notes , looking at the schematics (and manuals) of development boards and going to seminars that are given free of charge by TI , Analog Devices , ST , Xilinx etc.. Watching electronics youtube design video's are also a great resource.My way of learning is by doing electronics projects / designs and post them on this forum , you get great feedback on how to improve it and thing to watch out for.Most of the seminars in the Netherlands are @ the High Tech Campus (NXP / Phillips) in Eindhoven.Good luck.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 05:07:42 pm
content: A four year college prepares you to get your Doctorate and then to teach in college.I have met new engineers who have never soldered in their life.A 2 year community college is a better real world learning experience.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 05:08:22 pm
content: This is one of the reasons I am a big proponent of co-operative education. School for 4 months and then work, real work, for 4 months. It takes longer but you graduate with over 2 years of relevant work experience and, depending on the work you did, some real world skills. Its also a great way to make some money during the lean student years.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 05:41:01 pm
content: gap …They're not even in the same solar system… in fact they may reside in another galaxy altogether ...

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 05:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 04, 2014, 05:41:01 pmNormally I'm not a fan of, qft, or ^ this, however, ^ this ^ 100000 is appropriate in this case!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 06:09:47 pm
content: the result of too many pan-galactic gargle blasters...

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 06:57:17 pm
content: Degrees are used as filters. If you don't have one on your CV, most companies will throw it away as they simply don't have the time to filter through stacks of CVs and do interviews from people who "feel" they are qualified to their own personal experience and "passion" which is objective and haphazard to say the least. Smaller companies may have the time or inclination to do so but I haven't found this to be true. Most are far too busy.Most part-time tech jobs are usually taken by certificated techs or EE students. Large companies will not let you near their labs without some proper certification or at least the promise of one (as in an internship of some kind).

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 06:57:50 pm
content: All the technical people who I go to for help have the same qualities. In fact it is the same quality that Dave Jones mentioned in one of his videos. That is they got involved in electronics at a young age. It was their passion. Maybe they were a ham. Maybe they picked up radios and TV from the curb when they were walking home from school. Maybe they were introduced to it from a parent or a relative.That is what filled in the gap for me between a 4 year University education and the real world. I was ahead of the average grad when I started work.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 06:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on January 04, 2014, 06:48:20 pmI think the second paragraph is the main problem. If you go to uni and do not have the common sense to have planned some sort of future and looked at your options by then then it's not rally the uni's fault for no telling you what you should be doing with your life and how the real world works.I have worked with far too many people who have several degrees but are completely inept. Most of the people I would choose to work with on a preferential basis have no degrees and have not been near a university. The problem with the companies asking for applicants to have degrees is that the people writing the job notices have a degree and feel it is important.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 07:13:54 pm
content: I'm only in 3. semester, but I feel the same. My topic:Learn EE at university.

author: BBQ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 07:38:05 pm
content: I present to you, the gap!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 08:01:58 pm
content: What is education for you? Something you buy, or the process of studying1, deliberating, and finally understanding?If it is something you buy, then well, good luck filling the gap. The other kind of education requires you, and no one else, to perform the process. A university provides the environment to start that process.1study: "the activity or process of learning about something by reading, memorizing facts, attending school, etc." --http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/study

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 09:44:11 pm
content: I will have to agree with this thread. I have a degree in electrical engineering but when I got out of school, did I really know much practical stuff? Not really. Only more recently have I begun really filling in this knowledge gap. At the end of my degree, everyone suggested more programming was needed to be taught, but I now think that more practical design experience is whats needed.I grabbed this quote from somewhere once:QuoteAlthough I have to say that they werent particularly the end all of teaching problem solving either. I furthered what I knew on solving problems on my own.On a good note, the engineering students at the school I went to were actually more proficient at writing compared with the english/literature students. On another note, while I was at college, I didnt see many people I knew from highschool, even though it was local. I was then once sitting in the building for language and arts and kept seeing people I recognized from highschool. I suddenly realized where they had all gone. haha

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 10:23:12 pm
content: Guys, let's not turn this into another 'university sucks'? thread since we already have a few of those. Instead I'd like to find out what to do and were to go from where I am now.Let me elaborate:I'm currently 29 years old; it took me a few failed attempts to find a field of study that fits me before I got into a burn-out like situation for about 3 years. Incidentally that turned out the best thing that happened to me since I was able to turn my life around and in a direction to become the real 'me'. I crawled out while starting EE at the 'applied sciences' university level. Within a few weeks I was hooked and when I found the EEVblog in my second year the virus hatched completely: I've found my passion! So now here I am, only able to work about 20h a week, with no prospect of that getting better thus also limited in my ability to do things next to university stuff. I'm starting my graduation assignment in February and will spend the next year on that.So, again, here I am:- hardly any experience, but a big passion for electronics and eager to gain experience- a head full with two years spend on following technical topics here and reading up on application notes and other stuff to gain a better insight. Yet I don't want to just know stuff, I want to really *know* stuff if you know what I mean.- a few instruments on my bench and a new scope coming my way shortly, yet limited in ability to spend time /energy on projects- eager to learn- did I already say hardly any experience but a big passion for electronics?By the way, yes I got turned down for an internship by a company that wanted someone who was into electronics as a child already. I figured it?s their loss since I don't fit in that picture. Nevertheless my passion isn't any less.In the very old times one would learn by becoming some master?s apprentice (like a carpenter for example). If that were to be possible somehow today I'd go for it.@Spikee: thanks. I'm already trying to learn a lot from (web)seminars, application notes, good books etc. Incidentally do you know how to get info on what seminars are planned when at the High Tech Campus?@DigilentMinds.com: I hear ya. Thing is that a 20h R&D job isn?t the easiest to find. I've got half a mind just starting as free lancer just seeing where that gets me. Yet that lack of practical experience holds me back since I figure that me getting that experience in the meanwhile will lengthen the design time a lot (if any) and that might not lead to happy clients (if there are any) at all.@Tinkerer: sounds familiar. that quoteI can agree with.So what now?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 11:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: Christe4nM on January 04, 2014, 10:23:12 pmWhen you have to eat an elephant, do it one bite at a time.If you've only got limited time to work on projects, chose something that's achievable. The other thing I'd do is some reading on production engineering. Lack of knowledge about that is the biggest gap i see between what is taught at uni and what is needed in a design engineer. Being able to talk with production about capability, capacity and maturity of processes is a huge advantage. Without that knowledge I don't believe it's possible to create a genuinely good design.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 11:32:42 pm
content: This is one of the golden gems of application notes, and will teach you an excessive amount of practical considerations, (you have been warned)http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slod006b/slod006b.pdfAnd here is a good place to find question / answer type responses to specific issues including parasitic effects, RF, and many other good bits of info (quite long though)http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialogue/archives.htmlnow just there alone is probably 1-2 weeks of reading,And finally for when you do start your own projects, build something for yourself, if you dont quite know how to, then that is how you learn,

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 12:00:43 am
content: In mechanical engineering you learn by screwing up.I doubt however that the unwarrented self importance persons here will ever admit this. Such people never screw up.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 12:15:18 am
content: Quote from: FJV on January 05, 2014, 12:00:43 amThe sign of a good lab is a large and full "failed projects" bin.

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 01:13:55 am
content: Same situation for me. I always convince myself to focus on the college study in order to get good grades and to later focus on projects whenever I've the time and energy like in vacations. Whenever a good vacation comes, I think about a project that I'm interested in regardless if I know where/how to start because eventually I will have to learn something new. This helps in avoiding frustration as I don't like putting a big load on myself as this can lead to some serious depression and boredom.Where I was raised and where I studied pre-college, there wasn't actually any source of inspiration or influence for me, or for anyone else in my area, to get started tinkering with electronics. I didn't know about breadboards until I took the first course in electric circuits analysis. The first time I was exposed to the physics of electronics was in high school; one of the chapters was about electricity and electronics. However, we weren't doing any experiments or anything useful; just remember the equation and pass the exam.Where I lived, there was no access to any source that may guide you to find passion in electronics or any technical/practical area, nor any human being that may inspire you. I didn't haverealaccess to the internet until mid 2007, so this adds to it. Before that time and starting from 2006, I had an expensive and slow dial-up internet access. My access was limited for a few hours of translating video games-related articles from English to my native language and that's actually what aided me in developing my English language skills. From late 2007 to 2009, my internet activity was maturely widened by the new lustful interest of reading and translating lectures and articles related to origin of the universe, evolutionary biology and the origins of religion. This greatly reshaped my mind, thinking and aspirations. It was in 2009 when I started university life and by early 2015 I should be graduating with a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering.I just wanted to show the contrast between my experience and the experience of most of the people on this forum. You, the OP, come from a country that has an advanced economy with, what I think, a dedicated industry for electronics design. Most of the people here, including you, have been having the edge over people like me who come from countries with primitive industries, specifically oil-driven and chemicals-dominated markets, and where the government is led by a royal family like in the middle ages of Europe. This is just me blowing some steam off.

author: nuhamind2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 03:17:16 am
content: That's why I hang around here a lot, hoping someone experienced in the field accidentally leak some knowledge

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 11:04:18 am
content: Quote from: Christe4nM on January 04, 2014, 10:23:12 pmSo lets be a bit more realistic, yes? Oh, by the way, before I continue. I am only delivering the bad news. I am not responsible for how things are. I am just telling how they are.You will be 30 years old when you have you Bachelor degree. That is too old, compared with the other people fresh out of university and which you have to comped with.And you are disabled. Excuse me if this is not the political correct term of the day, mentally substitute the term with what is correct today. The thing is, in the industry you need to perform. Sure, there are laws to protect you, you probably have laws that companies must provide jobs for disable persons, and whatnot. But in the end the industry is brutal, really brutal. And, not the least because of the widespread neo liberalism and globalization ideology it gets more brutal every year. You must perform, despite all the legislation that protects you. And you must perform under pressure.It would be the same for some master apprenticeship. Trade jobs are also about making money.Passion is no substitute for performance. And to also be honest, it can really go on the nerves of a team if you have a passioned member who makes a big fuss about everything. A bit like annoying dog owners who make a big fuss in public every time the dog managed to shit.Fine! Oh look how fine you did that! Good dog, good dog!. Thanks, but no thanks. It is a job.And by the way, passioned people are easier to exploit. Pay rise? Why? He is so passioned about it he'll work for free. You get the idea. That's the real world of electronics.There are at least two alternatives to the industry. The government (local or the EU), and self employment. The government typically has the tendency to adhere to the rules when it comes to disabled persons, while most parts of the industry try to circumvent them, and self employment means you set your own rules. But there will also be pressure when being self employed.So if you want to know what to do and where to go, see above.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 04:17:26 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on January 05, 2014, 11:04:18 amI had two classmates who were over 40 when they graduated (both ex-electricians!). They went on to rewarding careers, one in primary industry (a sawmill), the other in academia. That was 25 years ago, however. Personally, my favourite time was when I was self-employed.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 05:01:15 pm
content: Quote from: Christe4nM on January 04, 2014, 04:12:26 pmThe most important advice to give is not to think there is anything unusual or unexpected about this. The situation is quite normal.You can't know everything, and frankly it is very difficult to know even a lot. You could spend a lifetime learning and still not be finished.So in that context, how much can you possibly learn in a 4 year university degree? In that period your learning has to be prioritized and many, many things deferred until later.To give you a personal view:I have been working as an engineer now for about 30 years in my field since I graduated with my shiny new degree.After the first decade I looked back in amazement at how much I had learned to do compared to the day I graduated.After the second decade I had learned a whole bunch more. How little I knew ten years back!Today, thirty years later, same story. I've learned a whole lot more yet again. The learning never ends.If they tried to teach you "real world experience" in university it would be a waste. For one thing, universities are not the "real world". And secondly you would not have experienced it yourself while doing a real job, so you wouldn't really learn the lessons.The best thing to do in an academic course is learn the fundamental theory and scientific principles as best you can, and let the practical application of those come in good time.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 05:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: FJV on January 05, 2014, 12:00:43 amMy biggest screw up cost about $1.2m US. I've seen far far bigger screw ups made too. Dealing with the fall out from that really is a learning experience that doesn't get taught at uni.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 07:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on January 05, 2014, 05:23:45 pmI know people have screwed up far worse. Such as leaving tools to get sucked into the intake of a very expensive aircraft. Gotta wonder the overall cost of screw ups.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 07:55:08 pm
content: Been there, seen that...........Had a bad day once hunting a dropped screw. Found it eventually, along with around 2 dozen other ones, washers, wire clippings, terminal pins, nuts, split pins, bolts, dagga, metal shavings, a whole lot of dead insects and feathers.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 08:19:02 pm
content: There should be a free market in the education industry... It would improve things for everybody...... everybody who deserves it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 10:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on January 04, 2014, 06:57:50 pmBingo. That is the most precise and concise explanation i have ever read.It was a passion long before it became an 'official field of study' and it remains a passion until death.'It' just being a 'job' is a setup for failure.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 10:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: don.r on January 05, 2014, 12:15:18 amThe experience of a designer is measured in the amount of destroyed components and test gear.

author: coodoo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 10:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on January 05, 2014, 05:23:45 pmWhat happens with you after something like that? (That is about 110 years of EE starting payment in my country.)

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 11:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 05, 2014, 10:54:38 pmThankfullyEVERYONEscrews up. I once tripped off a unit at almost full load, ~500MW, which never happens without breaking stuff, not to mention the massive costs of getting it back online. Everything is relative, but your personal achievements, reliability and how often you screw up determines the outcome when something bad happens. When you're good at what you do and rarely mess up, accidents are accidents, assuming no injuries, and of-course some magnitudes are not ignorable.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 11:51:44 pm
content: IF you work for a decent company then procedures will be reviewed and a procedure will be installed or altered to avoid such disasters in the future.I have seen a few stinkers in my time ... (and done a few myself)- cleaning people have one of these big wet/dry machines to clean the floor. They are instructed to clean the service hallway behind the diffusion ovens. So the guy dutifully steers the machine to get the most coverage possible. the handlebar of the machine is at about the same height as the breakers for the ovens. ... clic click click ....Operators see the ovens shut down one by one ... by the time someone reacts and can run to the service hallway in the back and yell STOP , half the ovens were aborted. thousands of wafers scrap ...result : plant and facilities installs a plexiglass hsield over all the controls protruding form the rear of the machine. problem solved.- water leak on an ion implanter -> liquid spill alarm trips -> put a bucket under it... bucket overflows - > trips alarm againplant and facilities guy arrives, dumps bucket , brings along kneadable iron mending material to close the leaky seal. now this is a cleanroom. those coveralls aren't exactly the most enjoyable garments out there. the guy pulls up the pants and bundles some of the loose fabric before he hurks down. the belt of the cleanroom suit grabs the big lever of the mains breaker ( one of theose rotary brekaers with a big handle sticking out. - KLONK - pieeuuuwwwwwwww .. ( motors spining down ) . pop klonk whoosh ( valves popping open , vacuum tubes beeing flushed , whatever was hovering in the intake is beeing sucked into the beamline and pulverised.The guy panics , spins around and pulls the lever back to 'power on'. Boom , bang, klonk, lights dim ... game over ... it took weeks to get the machine back working.result : procedures are reviewed, the breaker is switched to a different type and relocated . nobody is allowed to work on the machine whiles they are running (meaning vacuum is on). Machines need to be taken down controlled and powered off or in a -safe- state (cryo pumps in lockout and isolated, beamline off and flushed with nitrogen, no wafers on machine) before ANY work is to be done. Only machine operators are allowed to do the takedown , powerup. Machine operators are made responsable for signing off the work order before any work can take place.Nobody got fired, nobody got a firm talking to. Shit happens , investigate,analyse,correct.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 12:13:22 am
content: Quote from: KJDS on January 05, 2014, 05:23:45 pmTraining is expensive. You'll never do that one again.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 12:18:16 am
content: Quote from: coodoo on January 05, 2014, 10:54:38 pmI got yelled at. I yelled back.i then spent 1 month clearing up the shit and 13 months rewriting the entire New Product Introduction procedure so that the entire company worked much better. From a clean customer spec arriving to volume production, that fell from 9 months to 3 months, mostly because everyone involved knew that things would run smoothly.That procedure has been copied by a lot of companies, albeit with some tweaking so that it fits their own requirements but the basis is still there.I've also seen people shown the door for £20k mistakes, but if they weren't much good and weren't improving then it's an easy excuse to ensure that they explore opportunities outside the organisation.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 12:36:27 am
content: Having taught a whole lot of EEs going through university:I'm not really sure why people have the impression that they are going to be master engineers by the time they graduate? I appreciate that it would be great to learn everything in four years, and perhaps the value of a degree is overblown by society as a whole, but if you want to learn how to achieve a specific task with current industry methods, for the most part I would recommend that you just go to a vocational/trade college/TAFE. I didn't quite appreciate this while I was an undergrad, but where I am the universities get stuck between a rock and a hard place.For example: the university needs to produce people who will move up the academic ladder (masters/phd/postdoc). That's a no brainer; they need to exist for the uni to exist. But of course, they need to teach people to become "engineers" too. Trouble is that every industry (or even every company) has a different idea of what an "engineer" is, and of course the stuff they want in an engineer is much more important than what the company next door wants. Some companies don't care about hand skills, they just want management abilities. Some want engineers to be able to hand wind RF coils. Some want students to be able to interface with suppliers so that production never stops. You get the idea: if you listen to a few select companies, students are great at a few things but they don't know not to grab the hot bit of the soldering iron (which is a skill I personally think is important).So the next suggestion people make is to just teach a little bit of everything, sounds reasonable right? Well then you have the problem of "jack of all trades, master of none". Students know just enough to be dangerous in a great number of areas.Ultimately, the approach that seems to be taken (and to be honest, I think its the best idea so far) is to try to teach foundational mathematics/physics/technical thinking. In my mind, the idea of university is to learn how to learn in your field. Nothing more. You don't get to learn what you need to learn, but rather the university is trying to prepare you todo that on your own. aka: give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach him to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.Graduation means you are about to start engineering, not finish it

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 01:41:04 am
content: Quote from: jeremy on January 06, 2014, 12:36:27 am... and you get paid to do it! How good is that!

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 01:04:30 pm
content: Everyone, thanks for tuning in.Summarizing what I read in your replies is: it’s quite normal to experience a gap between university and real world electronics design. Take one step at a time for you’ll be learning your whole life. Also start/keep designing things, fail a lot and learn by doing.Quote from: KJDS on January 04, 2014, 11:23:05 pmThanks, that puts things into perspective. I guess part of my frustration comes from wanting to swallow the elephant in one bite.Quote from: Rerouter on January 04, 2014, 11:32:42 pmThanks, I’ve got the printed 3rd and 4th editions (the latter is pretty lame compared to the previous editions) of Op Amps for Everyone and the Analog Dialogues is in my browser’s favorites taskbar.Quote from: Abstr7ct on January 05, 2014, 01:13:55 amHey, thanks. It’s good to hear the other side of living in a 1st world country from time to time and realize that others might have more reason to be frustrated. Puts things in perspective too.Quote from: Bored@Work on January 05, 2014, 11:04:18 amThat’s a fair reply B@W. I realize that at least 90-98 percent of the electronics industry in my country is probably ‘out of my league’ for the reasons you state. It’s that other 2-10 percent I try to aim at and otherwise I will just start my own business. But I’ll see how my graduation assignment works out first.Also, don’t worry, I know how to be at 'the right amount of passionate’. Hit my nose a few times during university projects before I got it thoughQuote from: IanB on January 05, 2014, 05:01:15 pmThe more you know, the more you don’t knowQuote from: don.r on January 06, 2014, 01:41:04 amWell, I guess future will tell how it'll work out for me

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 01:18:01 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 05, 2014, 10:05:47 pmAlthough I get where you are coming from, I think that view is a bit narrow to say the least. I agree completely with "'It' just being a 'job' is a setup for failure." That applies to all fields of study in my opinion. Still I think there is a generation growing up that doesn't get involved into electronics engineering until late in their teens (at least here in the Netherlands). Does that make them less able engineers beforehand since they didn't get into it as a child already? OK, compared to the latter they lack practical experience. Yet if they find that electronics engineering is what they like doing for the rest of their lives they can catch up to a certain amount.In my case there are personal reasons why I wasn't even able to think about electronics engineering before I decided to go for that field of study. Yet to me it has become more than just a job. If I make money with it, fine, but I'll be doing it nonetheless. So maybe I'm just the one exception to your 'rule of thumb', but I think the 'rule' should open up at least a bit.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 09:14:05 pm
content: Quote from: Christe4nM on January 06, 2014, 01:18:01 pmThat is still 'child' in my perspective. starting with real interest at 14,15 is still ok to fit my definition. starting with real interest at 25 ... that's a bit late...By the time you roll into your BSEE or MSEE you should already have made multiple circuits on your own. whether arduino based or others. I mean you should be able to take a few building blocks, deing some circutiry around it , write some code for it and make it work. it doesn't need to be a spit and polish mulitlayer pcb desinged like a pro. my first contraptions were also hairballs ( although i etched my first circuit board when i was 10 ..)Point is that byt he time you are 16 you should know how to solder and put some stuff togehter and make it work. you don;t need to be a wizard but the 'spark' needs to be there.

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2014, 10:08:28 pm
content: I was naturally having fun opening and checking the inside of electronics. I remember opening the cover of my Playstation 1 console to check for a lens-related problem; the console wasn't able to read any compact disc. After some minutes of looking and admiring the green circuit board and after some cleaning here and there, the problem was fixed. I also remember a time when I was tuning a radio receiver I suddenly was able to catch the signal transmitted from our cordless telephone when a relative of mine was talking to someone. It was at that moment I was amazed at what I just did! that made me addicted to the habit of tuning the radio hoping to catch the voice of my next unaware prey.This was all during pre-teens/teens years and I would argue that all I was needing is some kind of guidance, just a click, that might have got me started seeing the world of electronics, but there was none. Given what I've taught my self in the pats 7 years and the skills that I've developed regarding my linguistics, scientific and engineering knowledge, and given the environment that I've come out from, I'm not worried about the gap between the university curriculum and the practicalities of electrical engineering and electronics in particular.I look one year back and I see that I've really learned much more about the world of electronics and my understanding has widened. This is a sure sign for me that by keeping on this track and by coupling it with projects from time to time, each year will pass with more accumulative knowledge and skills. It's a gradual process, so why would I bother myself too much to the degree of frustration? I see most experienced people here have no less than 10+ years of hands-on experience with electronics. I wouldn't look at them for comparison at this point.More steam off...

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 10:03:20 am
content: University degrees are worthless. Yeah, I have one, MSc EE from a respectable technical university. An you know what? It's worth shit. I realized that after maybe 3 semesters, but decided to finish it as otherwise that would be a year and a half wasted. I showed up at uni only when i absolutely had too, meaning only exams, laboratories (mostly worth shit) or some rare cases when the lecturer actually checked the presence of students. I studied for like 1 week every semester to pass the exams. At the same time I worked full time as a pizza guy to support myself and devoted the rest of the time to learning practical electronics.And you know what? Turns out that at the company that I work for most of the guys come for technical advice to me (and I'm only 26 yo). And those are guys much older than me, with PhD's and all that stuff.On the other hand I might be a bit biased towards electronics, being a product of a marriage between a nuclear physicist (dad) and an energetic network systems engineer (mom) who met at a HAM radio club.

author: swingbyte1
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 02:14:30 pm
content: Univierstiy may have changed since I went through, but if its as shit as you say there is something wrong. EE should be great fun to hobbyists as one gets to learn how and why it works. A lot of hobbyists and techs can be very knowledgable - but usually only about what they like. Uni should equip one with a broad range of tools and fondation knowledge to start on a career as an EE - even if they don't find that area interesting.I have met a lot of people with the university chip on their shoulders - this is unwarrented and will only hinder themselves. We have all met dills with degrees - and they end up where they do - the market sorts it out. I have been amazed at how some graduate engineers can know so little about practicle electronics - but thats only a small area of engineering. Many more areas such as project and systems engineering are just as important - so don't get too hung up on it. This blog is slanted towards the practical creating electronics - but don't discourage others from engineering as engineers are required to do many non practical tasks as well.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 02:55:00 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on January 07, 2014, 10:03:20 amYou may have been kidding but the fact is we are all a product of our up ringing and environmnet. Expose a kid to tech ical stuff early on and there will be an advantage if the kid gets interested.I got an uncle that designed fire detection systems. He was frequently fixing radios or tv's. As an 8 year old that fascinated me. He thought me to etch circuit boards with a decon-dalo pen and fecl when i was 10 years old. After that.. All hell broke loose.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:38:51 pm
content: In reply to the OP, I think the "gap" is in the university teaching system itself, the curriculum in particular. Many people are brainwashed to believe they are taught the basics at uni to get started. In fact it's only the first few courses are basics and then later you are thrown into very specialized pure theoretical courses that you will never ever understand what they talk about until you start working in a relevant job. And this is the big gap, it's the jump from very elementary subjects to very advanced topics, for the sake of finding more theory to teach.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 03:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on January 05, 2014, 11:04:18 amWhich's something good, maturity!QuoteI agree, employers are going nuts, and employees now are under slavery.QuoteA better employee is someone with higher motivation. There are many "high performers" and "work machines" who "produce"...but what's the quality of their work? However some employers kill the motivation of good employees.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2014, 06:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 07, 2014, 03:53:12 pmWell, you can of course dream how it should be in an ideal world. Unfortunately, the reality is different.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 09:20:47 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 07, 2014, 02:55:00 pmActually, I was not kidding. First time I recall having soldering iron in my hand was when I was like 5 or 6 or thereabouts. My dad built an audio amp for me, but he let me do some basic soldering. I guess everybody can imagine how this looked like, but I still have that amp and it still kinda works (one channel dead and missing an antique IC).As for the university: IMO the main problem is that lecturers no longer see teaching as the main part of their work. This is not a purpose, as it should be, but rather an annoying necessity in order to still be seen as educational organizational and get research funding from government or otherwise. It's mostly legitimate research and I do not have anything against it of course (well, frauds happen same as they do everywhere else, but that's not a big issue) but teaching seems to be sort of a side activity. This means that most courses are not updated for several years. For example I went through various courses on semiconductor and VLSI engineering, but none of them contained ANY practical informations or skills that would get you a job at ON Semi, Atmel etc. Similar thing with circuit design - yea, they taught me about how opamps are built (well, up to a level of 6 transistors...) and how does the equation for diode I-V curve looks like, but not how to use those in actual circuit. Basically everybody expected you to memorize some stuff, replay that stuff at the exam and go to hell. There were a few lecturers who actually tried to teach us something, and they had huge respect amongst students. the other 98% were either incompetent or didn't give a shit.After doing freelance design work for about 5 or 6 years and working in a big company for 2 I can safely say that 99.8% of what I know about electronics and other technical areas is totally self-taught, not much contribution from university...

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 09:28:24 am
content: I'm not sure if other countries have this, but we have "lecturers" in addition to professors (actual job title, ie you'll find it on their business card) which are teaching-oriented instructors, who are *not* tenure track professors or researchers.additionally to clarify, lecturers have doctorates.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 09:59:36 am
content: Around here, it is unfortunately a similar situation to what poorchava describes. There are absolutely no teaching-only staff, last guy I knew who wanted to do that got sackedAustralia is very publish-or-perish at the university level. But the cherry on top is at a lot of unis, the KPIs for teaching and research staff don't include anything to do with teaching!! It's research only. I think you'll find that those highly respected teachers are either god professors (been there so long that they can ignore some of what the higher ups say) or staying up until 4am all week to write papers. you'll get in trouble for teaching poorly, but you'll be fine by doing a mediocre job.Keep in mind that teaching well doesn't really lead to promotions, while researching well sends you all the way to professor. I'm not saying that is how it should be, but that is how it is at the moment.A good chunk of the people I know are well aware of this problem (mostly engineers). But no one really has the power to change things. Only the MBAs at the top can do that, and frankly they seem to not care (industry and academia are not so different)Not trying to excuse the behaviour, but I think it helps to know the other side. Also: there is no requirement to have teaching qualifications to teach at university. But there is for primary schoolEdit: in AU, lecturers are people who are trying to work their way towards professor. The way you advance is by "making a significant contribution to your field" (notice: nothing about teaching). Lecturer -> senior lecturer -> associate professor -> professor

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 03:09:40 pm
content: In Poland it's similar: after you get your BSc and MSc done, you may apply for PhD studies. And part of PhD studies is teaching. But in reality what happens is that professors and phd's use PhD students as free work force. This means that for example we had a lab on Programming Languages (generally - Java) tought by a guy who openly admitted that in best case he knows same as much as we did about Java, and probably even less because he hates programming. Similar stuff with Signal Processors lab - it was taught by a guy (who by the way was a great specialist on x-ray difractometry and crystalography and a respected lecturer in general) who on the first class said "i suck at DSP. You can download the instruction, but I doubt it'll get you enywhere, as i have tried for some hours and couldn't get through any lab. Please don't ask me questions as I don't know much about that topic at all. Everybody has a 'B' for starters, you get 'A' if you get anything from lab instruction to work"University also makes money dirty way on students. In general public universities are free to attend (aside from some formal fees for making ID's and the like). If you fail a course you do not get sacked, but rather have to re-do the course another semester, and that is definitely not free.There are about 6 thousand 1st year students on my university alone and statistically >30% of them fail Mathematical Analysis, which costs about 40€ or something to re-do. The system where person's or organization's decision is a sole factor deciding whether this same person/organization gets paid again is kinda sick :/

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 03:30:01 pm
content: You are lucky there. Here it is $3k per annum, and only going up each year, and this excludes extras like accommodation, books, lecture materials, lab sessions and anything else. Still more applicants than places, and with the school sytem meaning a lot of students have to do a bridge year it gets expensive real fast.

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 05:06:12 pm
content: In my country, we're paid money when studying in university. A payment of 265 USD is transferred to our bank account by the end of each month. We don't pay the university anything, so we don't have to worry about debts or financial plans for enrolling into a university program. Actually, if you're not extravagant, you can come out of university with enough money to buy a new car.

author: ju1ce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 06:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: Abstr7ct on January 08, 2014, 05:06:12 pmYou must be living in a cheap country then. The Finnish study grant (with housing supplement) is about 500 € per month. After rent and food I am left with something like 50 €. In 30 years I would have made enough money to buy a car!

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 07:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: ju1ce on January 08, 2014, 06:33:41 pmThis is news for me. A European, western in general, country with free higher education in which you're paid a good money. Do food and rent cost that much to leave you a 50 € by the end of the month? if I'm paid that amount of money while studying university in my country, I would be able to leave 350 € untouched by the end of the month.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 07:27:19 pm
content: What country is that?

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 07:29:58 pm
content: Saudi Arabia. The Arabian Peninsula as I like to call it.

author: ju1ce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 07:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: Abstr7ct on January 08, 2014, 07:01:57 pmYes, with good money comes "good" prices. 500 € is enough to stay alive, but the standard of living leaves a lot to be desired so many students have part-time jobs. I think that's quite ideal; it's not up to the taxpayers to pay for students' boozing and luxury items, but by not having to flip burgers in the evenings one can focus on studying and start paying taxes quicker. You can get enough work experience during the summer months.

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 07:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: Abstr7ct on January 08, 2014, 07:29:58 pmThis country is wealthy. But how's life there compared to living in Europe? ;-)

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 07:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on January 08, 2014, 07:46:34 pmWealthy is a small word, thanks to the abundance of petroleum. Unfortunately, you can't get everything running perfect. Wealth is there but there's always a royal family running the whole show and enjoying most of the wealth for nothing. It's really a complicated historical and political story, which better be avoided here. If this wealth is combined with the political freedom of Europe, then we would finally create an almost utopian place.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2014, 08:12:16 pm
content: Quote from: Abstr7ct on January 08, 2014, 07:01:57 pmStats regarding salaried workforce in Finland Dec 2013: average gross income per month: € 3206, median salary € 2853 (ie half got less, half more ). While this may appear low(ish) compared to some other European countries (think e.g. Switzerland), it should be remembered that many things are supported by the state such as education i.e. there is considerable redistribution of income in the form of taxes. Still, the 2010 statistical reference cost for a single person renting an apartment in the capital (Helsinki) was 654 €/month (for a family this easily doubles). So you can see that saving 350 from 500 "income" is a non-starter. For just 500 € total per month it is not possible to live a "normal" life in Finland where you basically pay all your own costs.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:32:05 am
content: Quote from: JoeO on January 04, 2014, 05:07:42 pmJoeO, serious question: are you joking, exaggerating, or for real? An EE major graduating without ever soldered? If this is for real, then our schools have achieved new lows.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:46:48 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 09, 2014, 06:32:05 amIf the final year project was waveguide based, or implementing some IIR and FIR filters on a generic DSP platform then why would you need to solder?

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:27:05 am
content: Yeah, we have those too. I was the last year to go through one-part studies (10 semesters/5yrs after which you get masters degree in engineering). At third year we had a lab/project course where we had to design a circuit, design a pcb, etch it, assemble, test and write a report. The stuff was generally on blinking led / audio amp / ne555 / linear supply level. I recall half of the people not having soldered anything in their life. There was also one girl, who designed a star-shaped array of blinking smd white leds (doh!). After soldering all of them statistically half didn't workShe couldn't figure out why for a few days. After that someone became merciful and enlighted her about diodes conducting in one direction only... That was 3rd year. In 2-part-study system you get an engineer title after 3 years... So there would be an electronic engineer in the wild who doesn't know how what the diodes does...As for costs, I happened to be born and living in a big academic city (700k citizens + 5 or 6 major public universities), so I simply lived with my parents and just drove 6km to the campus. Obviously for people from other areas, there are some additional costs like renting a flat or a dorm room, food and all that. There are countless ways to get subsidies and scholarships from government programs. If you live in region X, if your family makes less that X money per person, if you went to particular profile of high school, etc. Obviously there are also scholarships for good grades (IIRC highest rank was equivalent to ~110€ unless you got Prime Minister's Scholarship which was about ~400-500€).That is true only for full-time studies. If you want to study part time, in the evenings, on weekends etc this is typically not free. Certain fields (like medicine) are expensive as fuck, in the order of 5k€ per semester - you can only afford that if you are a particularily untalented (or stupid) kid of a particularily rich doctor.

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 11:15:28 am
content: The first time I touched a breadboard was two years ago when the instructor of the first circuit analysis course asked to search for a schematic on the internet and build it on a breadboard. He wanted something clever, not just blinking LEDs. I didn't know about breadboards before, so I took a ride searching on the internet and found a tutorial on Youtube that explains what it's and how to use it. I knew the place of the market where electronic components and spare parts are sold. After searching on the internet looking for a schematic in which I can recognize the components, I found this one:(Water Level Detector)Of course, a first course in circuit analysis will not tell you about diodes, transistors and ICs. Nothing about how they physically look like, neither how they operate or how they look on schematics. It wasn't hard to recognize the transistor and the light emitting diodes after searching. However, the funny thing is that neither I nor my colleagues were able to know that each switching block, that's physically realized by the CD4066 IC, are parts of the same 1 IC; we thought that we need 4 ICs. Then again, searching and reading more clarified a lot about ICs. We built the circuit and it worked fine and dandy.In addition to get it physically working, he asked for a computer simulation. It was my first time to get to know about Multisim, Spice and Proteus. I found an existing model of CD4066 in Proteus, so I built the circuit there and got the simulation working fine and dandy, too. As for soldering, the first time I learned how to solder a circuit on a perfboard happened in a compulsory workshop for taking a PIC-based Microcontroller course. The workshop is instructed by an old and experienced engineer who has been working in department for years. He should be retired by now as a university employee, but it looks like that the EE department doesn't want to lose its experienced workforce, so they kept him in contract. Personally, I'm afraid of purchasing a soldering station because I'm too careful about what goes inside my lungs. I'm sure that soldering fumes are not respiratory system-friendly.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:48:32 pm
content: @Abstr7ct, only a problem if you're doing leadfree and/or with (possibly, depends on the exact type) no-clean flux. even then, just suck or blow the fumes away with a fan.if you stick to leaded solder and rosin-based flux, you're basically safe, but ventilation is still recommended.