EEVblog 1591 - MORE Colas Wattway Solar Cycleways in the Netherlands! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 10:31:32 pm
content: Colas attway is back with the two 1000sqm solar cycleway installations in the Netherlands!https://electrek.co/2023/12/18/dutch-riding-bikes-solar-cycle-paths/Just 4 months ago!Some FAIL articles:https://nos.nl/artikel/2484255-innovatief-zonnefietspad-bij-maartensdijk-levert-bijna-niets-ophttps://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/07/solar-bike-path-fails-to-meet-electricity-targets-again/https://www.wattisduurzaam.nl/37168/energie-beleid/utrechts-zonnefietspad-op-koers-voor-40-van-beoogde-opbrengst/https://www.wattwaybycolas.com/en/references/photos.htmlhttps://www.colas.com/en/media/press-releases/commissioning-two-wattway-photovoltaic-cycle-paths-netherlands/www.colas.com/cdn/ff/t-EqIdIPRtCiY46vASJDMezejJHibBO8DoRPk9njM5Y/1702047018/public/2023-12/20231211_pr-colas_wattway-in-the-netherlands.pdf]https://s.[url=http://www.colas.com/cdn/ff/t-EqIdIPRtCiY46vASJDMezejJHibBO8DoRPk9njM5Y/1702047018/public/2023-12/20231211_pr-colas_wattway-in-the-netherlands.pdf]www.colas.com/cdn/ff/t-EqIdIPRtCiY46vASJDMezejJHibBO8DoRPk9njM5Y/1702047018/public/2023-12/20231211_pr-colas_wattway-in-the-netherlands.pdf

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 10:39:23 pm
content: At this point, this is just criminal misappropriation of public funds.

author: Sparks
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 11:06:47 pm
content: People just won't quit wasting money on horrible ideas.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 11:47:02 pm
content: As long as money will keep flowing in for this kind of projects, they will happen. You can't fight an opportunity, however wasteful it turns out to be. That is basic entropy.The only way it will stop is if we stop funding projects altogether unless they have been thoroughly proven to be viable. Which is definitely not the case these days, and no, producing a few Excel sheets and some shiny Powerpoint pitches is not proving that a project is viable. (Saying that for the serial dodgy-publicly-funded-projects entrepreneurs.)But some people claim that it's all good anyway because it makes money "circulate", so what do I know. By that account, scamming and crime in general is also good, I suppose. As long as it all circulates.

author: WizardTim
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 05:41:41 am
content: At 13:02 you dismiss a comment about 200 - 400 Wp/m2, don't forget it's been almost a decade since your initial debunking calculations,realPV technology has come a long way since and bi-facial panels are just now being mass produced and somewhat economically feasible, those panels are perfect for solar canopy projects and are starting to be installed in them, they cantheoreticallyreach that 400 Wp/m2(realistically like 300 Wp/m2equiv.) in the same way this project can probably do 148 Wp/m2in a lab so imo it's a fair comparison. And to top it off panels embedded in roads or paths will never be able to take advantage of bi-facial panels and are instead stuck with mono-facial panels that are already very close to the Shockley–Queisser limit. It was a waste of silicon when this all started but now it's an even worse waste despite those companies having a decade to improve their tech.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 09:32:40 am
content: Oh, you are going to love this, Germany is doing the "same":https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/16/1st-solar-bike-path-in-germany-is-now-live/Notice any difference?Back to the Dutch project:The last project costs 1.3MEUR, this is probably more expensive. Instead of spending it on these useless roads that fall apart after two year, and fail to meet basic requirement: You break the money down into 1300 projects, and give incentive to the people to install panels on their roof. With 1000 EUR each, they install the panels. All you have to say: We will give you 1000 EUR to install panels on your roof."The generated energy from the road is enough to cover the power consumption of 40 households." With the incentive, you cover the energy consumption of 1300 households. 1300/40 = 32. As I said, this is criminal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 10:12:46 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 08, 2024, 09:32:40 amI showed that in the video.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 10:15:21 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 07, 2024, 11:47:02 pm"I'm just a good citizen doing a public service Your Honor."

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 11:15:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 08, 2024, 10:12:46 amI have a confession to make, I haven't watched the full video.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 09:36:41 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 08, 2024, 09:32:40 amThe tall netting fence on the side is a bit how you doing. Probably there for all the netting fence aficionados (tragic for me I notice in that photo it is hinge joint netting, while in the eevblog2 it was ringlock netting)At least I can not see any goats?I know, I know, back in my box.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 10:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 08, 2024, 09:32:40 amIf you are a regular cyclist, you'll spot the reason why this isn't a good idea immediately. Way too prone to cause serious injuries in case of an accident. It is also too low to drive under with a truck to spray the path with salt, cleaning and do other maintenance.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2024, 11:29:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 08, 2024, 10:47:37 pmHow is it different from a cycle path in a forest in terms of injuries?And I know this will be a shocker, but people in other countries don't use bicycles during the winter because they are not suicidal. And they don't salt cycle paths.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 04:45:32 am
content: I find it's functional but looks so ugly, way too many poles (unless there is expected significant snow load) and where does the rainwater drain? As a bird, I'd like to walk around on it and poopIf they applied some industrial or architectural design to it, I'm sure it would be more popular. Maybe a cantilever or concrete pillars etc. used, why can't it look less primitive?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 10:44:35 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 09, 2024, 04:45:32 amIt's not nice, it is functional.I think I geo-located the path:https://www.google.com/maps/@48.0144253,7.8370139,3a,75y,180.81h,87.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sp3ntgxZS7-vIVzsoVArq3A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttuSo it's in between Freiburg Messe, the airport and the local Football stadium.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 12:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 08, 2024, 10:47:37 pmThere are small "trucks" available to salt and to clean the path if neccessary. These are already regularly used where i live to salt cycle paths that are not directly adjacent to roads. Those would easily fit under this canopy.Regarding birds: Why would you as a bird walk on a slippery - and in summer also hot - surface where you can't find anything to eat, if there is a nice lawn nearby?Sure, some bird poop and other dirt will accumulate, as on almost every other solar panel. How much effect that has would be interesting to observe. On my roof system dirt has no noticable effect on the output of the system, and the panels are visibly dirty.Quote from: floobydust on January 09, 2024, 04:45:32 amThere is a small ditch on the left side. On the left side of the canopy there is also what looks like a raingutter, evident when you compare the two sides. Now, how they get the water down i don't know. The poles are likely hollow, maybe they use them directly instead of additional downpipes?And regarding the number of poles, well, i think thats a german thing, especially if this was publicly funded. Some "paper warrior" somewhere likely took the most extreme snow in the last whatever years, added a nice safety margin to that, and thus calculated the number of poles required. Maybe add a couple more for the case that some are knocked down by an accicent as well. And from the perspective of the architect, this is actually sensible, as there can be personal liability if this thing comes down, but there is no liability if it is uglySome months ago, there was a pilotproject for covering an Autobahn with solar, very similar to this covered path. That looked even more overengineered.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 06:36:17 pm
content: I think it's done a little too basic and complain because these things need to be commonplace, widespread acceptance. Not just a token project.Solar roadways is much prettier and that's what people prefer, cosmetics.You'd have to do the math for weight of the panels, snow load, wind and the crazy number of poles and I-beams etc. Then there's proper drainage.How does the snow get cleared off or the panels cleaned? I don't see any lighting underneath it, gotta be dark at night.Solar is stuck in a mechanical infancy it seems, Tesla Solar Tiles appear to have been a flop.If Tesla car batteries can be structural, then why not solar panels?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2024, 10:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 09, 2024, 06:36:17 pmlol what... just leave the snow if you want it will eventually melt. You can see street lights on the right hand side, and you can see mounts on the poles where in the future they could add lightning to the path. Front bike lights to light the road are legally required in Germany as well.If you don't bike commute don't bother commenting on something you don't understand.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 09:08:44 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 09, 2024, 10:36:14 pmRight now, OP's North Holland,North Brabant and the Freiburg Messe sites are below freezing."the snow will melt" line of bullshit is a narrative here so they don't have to design a way to clear or brush them off.I laugh at solar installs covered in snow, nope it doesn't melt, less than -20°C lately and right when you need solar power. It sublimates in weeks if you are lucky.Commuting through winter here is for hardcore cyclists. One or two wipeouts on the snow and ice, maybe skid into a pole and the lesson might be understood.I've tried it before realizing, it's just too cold here to safely ride.So this path is for bicycles only? Where do you walk then? I expect pedestrians on it but all that signage /s saying bikes only, so easy to read.Here we have homeless people pushing their carts, summer has skateboarders, e-bikes, e-scooters etc. in bike lanes.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 09:56:32 pm
content: You get more solar power in June than all of Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb so depending on the cost of labor/heaters/etc it may be worth just waiting for it to melt.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany#/media/File:Solar-energy-factsheet-germany.jpg

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 10:54:34 pm
content: When it's really cold, after a cold front moves in temps drop and snow falls, really when you need that solar energy the most. I am used to designing solar for use in remote areas, forest, off-grid situations.I am trying to say these solar platforms need better engineering and design to make them widespread. A bot that drives along and brushes the snow off, or cleans panels, or tiltable panels- is not so absurd or expensive. A few less poles please. Give the rain somewhere to drain off please.Solar roadways look pretty and are of course absolute rubbish but laypeople don't understand. I've learned it's not about the project actually working. People get some press, attention, and collect a paycheque. They are quite happy. That it doesn't work- reality sets in much later but who cares, nobody to blame but the unicorn.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 11:49:00 pm
content: But this is not a remote area, it probably just feeds directly into the grid. If they pay back in ~10 years and it lasts 20+ it was probably worth the installation, regardless of if the power is present in the winter or not. Current payback time in Germany is as low as 1-2 years due to high energy rates (40c/kWh).Someone can calculate how much 287kW gets you in the winter, if its worth sweeping off or not. Might be.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2024, 12:55:18 am
content: ClickCondid the German solar bike path civil design. Their projects seem overdesigned, big I-beams are expensive and space truss is what I would expect instead of so much steel. They can use a cantilever or make them a bit prettier if you check their portfolio, mostly car ports, charger stations, parking lot stuff.Ha it has LED lightingmore pics.