Tesla rear-ends a stationary Fire Engine with its lights flashing at 65mph  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 03:02:45 pm
content: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42801772https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/23/tesla_autopilot_crash/https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/22/tesla-on-autopilot-slams-into-parked-fire-truck-on-freeway/http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/17892/tesla-driver-slams-into-fire-truck-at-65-mph-blames-autopilotThe driver is blaming the Autopilot but to quote Mandy Rice-Davies "well, he would, wouldn't he".Either way, imho, the driver is a long way up the proverbial creek as he's still responsible and after the 2016 incident Tesla has been constantly repeating that Autopilot isn't really an autopilot and the driver must be alert and ready to take over.IFit was in Autopilot it will be interesting to see what Tesla release of the logs.Side note 1: The BBC article also details a GM autonomous car moving back into its original lane after a lane changed was aborted and coming into contact with a motorbike which then crashed.Side note 2: This idiot was caught drink driving letting his Tesla drive him home whilst over the limithttp://fortune.com/2018/01/22/tesla-drunk-driver-autopilot/

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 03:16:31 pm
content: You cant fix stupid. I see people reading books while driving, others have no idea how to to drive a car.90% of my coworkers dont know how much following distance you need. 1 out of 10 actually said, it depends on the speed. Congrats to her, best answer. I see people going into situations where there is obviously no way of coming out, if there is something unexpected on the road. Like another car. That's OK, you can always just slam on the breaks and crash into everything slow.Honesly, I think level 2 autonomus driving is just not safe. Level 1 is fine, also 3. But 2? You can release everything, but still need to pay attention. I dont think humans work that way. You cannot blame the autopilot, you were driving.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 03:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 24, 2018, 03:16:31 pmExactly! I have aliteralautopilot in my airplane.If the airplane crashes, there's a >90% chance that it's pilot error and not machine error.The autopilot is just another  control on the airplane. If I crash it with the yoke or crash it with the autopilot, it's still on me.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 04:38:01 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 24, 2018, 03:16:31 pmmillennials the generation that think's technology will do everything for them,including drive the car. and maybe wipe there butt too!

author: expinkolator
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:41:50 pm
content: It wasn't 65 mph. I doubt it was 20. You don't walk away from rear ending a truck at 65 mph.Presumably the 'autopilot' was set to 65 and the question is was it the autopilot or the driver that only managed to shed 45 mph before crashing.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: expinkolator on January 24, 2018, 05:41:50 pmQuote

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 24, 2018, 03:16:31 pmIt depends more on Speed Derivative.No need for distance when both cars are accellerating :-)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 07:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 24, 2018, 03:16:31 pmTime is better than distance, partly because it is more practical.In the early 80s there used to be a public information film in the UK for >40mph: "only a fool breaks the two second rule". That takes two seconds to say, and the film showed how to let the car pass a fiducial mark, say that phrase, and if you hadn't passed the mark your distance was OK. A damn sight easier than trying to estimate 165ft @ Xmph, which was the earlier recommendation.http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/126Stopping Distances.Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear. You shouldleave enough space between you and the vehicle in front so that you can pull up safely if it suddenly slows down or stops. The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance (see Typical Stopping Distances diagram, shown below)allow at least a two-second gap between you and the vehicle in front on roads carrying faster-moving traffic and in tunnels where visibility is reduced. The gap should be at least doubled on wet roads and increased still further on icy roadsremember, large vehicles and motorcycles need a greater distance to stop. If driving a large vehicle in a tunnel, you should allow a four-second gap between you and the vehicle in front.If you have to stop in a tunnel, leave at least a 5-metre gap between you and the vehicle in front.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 07:42:13 pm
content: I worry that this sort of technology is breeding complacency and acting as a crutch enabling people to forget how to actually operate the machine. Car manufactures keep adding more and more distracting gadgets and then add yet more gadgets on top of that to try to mitigate the distraction. I'm of the opinion that someone behind the wheel should be focused on *driving* the car, not playing with toys. If you don't want to drive the car, then call a cab/ride share or take mass transit.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 08:04:00 pm
content: A simple reflection, in today's modern age in 2018, still , trains that are running on afixed rail, are crashing every year throughout the world ...->List of rail accidents (2010–present)... yep, there are entries in 2018 already.Suddenly I lost the appetite of discussing autopiloted car ... let alone riding it.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 08:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on January 24, 2018, 04:38:01 pmIn Japan, their toilets have several wash cycles, heated seats, and blow dryers... but I think you have to push a button or something.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 09:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on January 24, 2018, 04:38:01 pmThis will be about shifting the responsibility to deeper pockets. Proportioning the blame, becoming a victim is a integral part of the US justice system, insuring that someone else is responsibly for your own stupidity so you can continue your life unabated by costly financial problems.I'm only surprised that the driver is not suffering from sever, crippling, unexplainable neck pain. I'm sure if autopilot is confirmed 'on', latent pain will develop.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 10:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: expinkolator on January 24, 2018, 05:41:50 pmNot entirely convinced it was 65mph from the crash picture neither. These are some crash tests for the same model car:Okay, half-side crashes are perhaps one of the nasty ones in terms of the construction, but consider this was only 40mph and not 65mph.Does Tesla have an collision avoidance systems, like evenVolvo truckshave? Sure that truck wasn't doing 65mph (only 38), but considering that a Tesla has a dozen few more sensors for autonomous driving in general, I don't see why emergency stopping at highway speedswouldn't be part of that design.Question then is, why did such an emergency system malfunction? Or did the user turn it off (if that is even an option)? Was it not updated yet?Or was is still turned off after a "calibration period" after updates?Doesn't sound very nice if you say the car has emergency braking systems, but then put temporal constraints on them.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 10:33:07 pm
content: An offset collision is FAR more damaging than a straight on collision into a wide, flat surface like the back of a fire truck.I've always thought that crash tests are fairly pointless, many cars are engineered to perform well in the specific mandated tests, sometimes at the expense of real world safety. By far the best source of crash safety data are the inevitable real world accidents that occur as soon as a vehicle is sold to the public.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 10:33:28 pm
content: QuoteBummer - I would not want a car that cannot be steered by my knees. Sometimes I just need both hands for something else.Regarding the 20 MPH theory - from personal experience it was more than 20 MPH

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 10:52:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 24, 2018, 07:38:29 pmYes, of course. It is 2 second at least, 3 second recommended.Quote from: Galenbo on January 24, 2018, 05:58:45 pmI'm just gonna ignore this comment for now.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 10:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: hans on January 24, 2018, 10:21:44 pmNeither was I and I'm guilty of copy and pasting too lazily even after reading the articles which say some braking had happened but the final collision speed was unknown."At 65mph" removed from title.QuoteAn update that can be fooled by an orange providing off-centre pressure

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 11:30:29 pm
content: From now on the investigators should search for oranges at tesla cars crash scenes.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 11:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: hans on January 24, 2018, 10:21:44 pmAnd the energy of impact at 65mph is 2.64x times more than at 40mph.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 03:09:51 am
content: I also doubt the impact happened at 65mph (105km/h) --- at that speed, I'd think the passenger compartment would have lifted and then half-buried itself under the butt of the truck. Something like this:http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-decapitated-slamming-corvette-semi-article-1.1283650Here's a 30-40km/h:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Underride_guard_full-width_impact_test.JPG40mph (64km/h):http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/side-guard-on-semitrailer-prevents-underride-in-40-mph-test

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 12:09:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 24, 2018, 07:42:13 pmThat's exactly what will happen with this systems that are good enough 90%+ of the time. People want autonomous cars to bugger off and do anything BUT drive the car. When cars system craps out for whatever reason, the driver is off in lala land.I think this is going a key reason these systems will not be taking over for some time yet. Even if they go the Tesla route and force you to keep your hands on the wheel, will the public adopt this "autonomous" car at a premium no less? Unless its 100% autonomous 100% of the time, I don't see them being safer or mainstream adopting them. Even then, the liability is sticky. 100% autonomous, public will expect 100% of the liability is on someone else. Car manufactures sure as hell won't want to take it on.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:30:59 pm
content: I think the word "Autopilot" is generally confused by the idiot masses.An autopilot is just a procedural element which follows directions given to it by either the pilot or the flight management system.In this sense the Telsa system IS an autopilot.If you tell a planes autopilot to fly a heading of 180* and hold a shallow descent of 500fpm, it will continue to do that until it hits a mountain. Some of them might disconnect when the terrain alarm goes off as they don't want responsibility of hitting the mountain.If you ask an autopilot to do something stupid it will. It also requires constant supervision.It is the general masses who have this belief that an autopilot will replace a pilot and fly the plane full autoymous that are now driving tesla cars it seems.Caveat: There are autopilot systems that will control a plane from just after take off to just before touch down automatically, but they require that every step of that flight is programmed into the FMS. I have not yet seen "auto takeoff" and usually "autoland" as a minimum requires the radios be tuned to a CAT III ILS system. Usually the FMS vertical mode (VNAV) is limited to the procedure missed approach point. I believe there are systems that will automatically switch over to autoland mode on ILS, but these would be very, very recent.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 02:57:29 pm
content: Its Teslas fault. There are very few solid stationary objects in air compared to many solid stationary objects on the ground.noun: automatic pilot; plural noun: automatic pilots a device for keeping an aircraft on a set course without the intervention of the pilot.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 03:08:49 pm
content: Quote from: MT on January 25, 2018, 02:57:29 pmThat's a bit out of date, by about 100 years.http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=771551(only because I can't find a working link to a 737 operations manual)

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 03:12:58 pm
content: Still teslas fault. "Temporarily stationary object" in 4 dimensions. Tesla should not label it "autopilot features" , its made to be understood wrongly .

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 03:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: MT on January 25, 2018, 03:12:58 pmNope. Drivers fault. It is not an antonymous car. It's an autopilot which requires driver supervision.Also, regarding stationary objects in the air there is exactly one, a very large on we call the Earth. A plane autopilot will happily and diligently fly you into that object if you ask it to. If it doesn't disconnect and wash it's hands of it. Point in hand, the recent suspected suicide CFIT (Controlled flight into terrain) in Europe by a 737 pilot was commanded on the autopilot descent hold mode.Does the Tesla system actually report support for collision avoidance with stationary objects in the middle of the road?

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 03:34:50 pm
content: The absolute minimum I expect from driver assist technology is collision avoidance,especially for stationary objects in the direction of travel. Whatever you call it, Tesla's Autopilot doesn't meet minimum requirement.An assist feature which turns off when the driver is inattentive is monumentally useless. If I am incapacitated due to illness or some other reason, I want the car to take over and safely stop, not run into the back of the car in front!Sorry, back to the drawing boards guys

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 03:42:19 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on January 25, 2018, 03:34:50 pmRailways have this feature called DAWS and a bunch of other things. Basically if the driver has not moved a control in a while it sounds a buzzer or bell. The driver has about 3 seconds to respond to that buzzer by pressing a reset button or the train engages emergency brakes and locks the controls until it comes to a complete stop.It sounds similar buzzers for passing yellow signals or approaching red ones.A full emergency stop in the middle of a motorway might be a bit extreme and create other hazards, but maybe it should reduce speed gradually and maybe even attempt to make it to the hard shoulder.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 03:57:16 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 25, 2018, 03:42:19 pmThat's what these "assist" systems should be required to have to keep the driver attentive. Of course by the time you do that, who's buying?

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 05:21:48 pm
content: There was a proposal that Tesla may have been following another vehicle that changed lanes at the last minute to avoid the truck, and Tesla had less time to react and stop in time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 05:59:17 pm
content: Which is precisely the sort of thing a human driver would easily be able to see and avoid, if they're paying attention. Regardless of what you tell them, people are going to assume these various driver assist features are infallible and rely on them. We are going to see a lot more incidents like this occurring.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 06:24:34 pm
content: "Autopilot is intended for use only with a fully attentive driver,"Tesla told The Register in a statement today.Tesla would also recommend that drivers stay sober, something one owner seemingly forgot over the weekend.On Saturday evening, a bloke was arrested after he passed out at the wheel on San Francisco's Bay Bridge, which runs between the city and Oakland, and his motor had come to a stop.The cops found the guy with twice the legal limit of alcohol in his body.Cashed up dumbass w@nkers still in playground modemost likely flogging ice or pimping HOs for a buck,or rich parents keeping mentally ill Junior 'happy' lest he pop a tantrum at one of their galah parties in front of influential friends

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 06:48:49 pm
content: Statistics on autonomous vehicles indicate they are already roughly as good as human drivers. This is not an indication of how good the autonomous vehicles are.Numerous drivers, including more than one of my acquaintance, have achieved high speed collisions with the rear of a truck. The human driving machine is unlikely to improve rapidly. If we want safer roads we must push for better "autopilots".

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 07:17:58 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 25, 2018, 06:48:49 pmAnd that based on how many AV driven miles and whats the total non-AV driven miles in the same time period? Cherry picked stats based on the early adopters, not the general public and all the stupidity that will come with them.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 07:52:58 pm
content: What it comes down to is that used as directed, these "autonomous" features are virtually useless. If you have to be fully attentive with your hands on the wheel then why not just drive the car yourself? We have a big problem with people trying to drive cars while focusing on anything but the driving, and trying to solve that with technology is not the right approach IMO. People need to be heavily pressured to PAY ATTENTION rather than conditioned to further rely on band aids to do the attention paying for them. Driving a car is a privilege, and one that should not be taken lightly. There are alternatives for those who are incapable of handling the responsibility of piloting a big heavy machine at high speeds.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 08:17:04 pm
content: I seem to remember this same type of discussion when cruise control started to become a popular factory and after-market add-on for 1970's cars. It's standard equipment these days, of course. It's all about making sure it's used correctly.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 08:21:05 pm
content: Cruise control is a lot different than autonomous control though. It allows you to relax your feet and pay attention to the road instead of the speedometer. It's not a substitute for paying attention.That said, I hardly ever use mine. It works well on wide open highways but this area is so crowded that it's rarely useful.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:44:27 pm
content: Cruise Control is a MUST HAVE where I amotherwiseRevenue Raisers Inc.currently trading as 'The P0lice' here, will have your pockets cleaned out in no time for exceeding speed limits by 3 kilometers in confusing 40 - 60 - 50 -80 -100 -60 ever-changing zonesfilled with fixed, hidden and mobile 'safety' sCAMERASInstead of patrolling and catching the drunks, donut loving hoonTards and unlicensed dangerous turds, they target Jill and Joe Citizen on their way to and from work or picking up the kids/shopping instead,doing 53 or 54 in a 50 - 60- 50 zone (formerly 60kph everywhere)on clear wide semi-deserted roads with great visibility,roads originally designed for 60, 70 and 80 kph, and never an accident nor a remote chance for one...even if F1s dragged there with no one at the wheel

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:04:42 pm
content: Quote from: orion242 on January 25, 2018, 07:17:58 pmThe stats are very questionable now. It's why I said roughly. But they are probably within one order of magnitude, with the sign uncertain. It remains that the "auto" side of the equation will improve, while there is little reason to think people will. Within a decade I think you will start seeing statistics that suggest people should never be allowed to drive. It will probably be two or three decades before that actually starts to happen.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:23:35 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 25, 2018, 10:58:53 pmWe have that shit in Madrid too.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 25, 2018, 03:23:05 pmYESQuote

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:52:58 pm
content: Initially I was not opposed to speed/red light cameras because speeding and red light running really is a problem. Unfortunately in practice they are all very clearly set up not to improve safety but to maximize revenue. The thresholds are too tight and there is no wiggle room when it comes to getting tickets. What really firmed up my opinion is when a citizen initiative attempted to shut down the red light camera system in a city near me the first comment from the city was "we need the revenue!" Ok, at that point they are not serving their intended purpose and they need to go.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 01:02:38 am
content: Quote from: paulca on January 25, 2018, 01:30:59 pmThey understand it exactly as how marketing intends it.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 01:13:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 25, 2018, 10:58:53 pmManual cars/trucks also have cruise controls, unless they're antiques. The main difference is that using the clutch pedal also turns them off and of course they can't change gears. Gear changes are infrequent at highway speeds, so there's really no difference from an automatic most of the time.If you really want to make sure you won't be tempted to use it, you can pull the fuse for the cruise control. Your right foot may get tired after a while. There's always the awkward cross-over technique where you use your left foot to get some relief.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 01:15:57 am
content: If you guys are worried about cameras, you could always use some sort of wide beam infrared laser pointer (if it's bright enough to get through the window).

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 01:24:05 am
content: Quote from: paulca on January 25, 2018, 03:23:05 pmThats "why" its Teslas fault. See your argument from a Tesla marketing point and you see why.QuoteNot as long you fly above it. However firetrucks are known not to fly.QuotePlanes/autopilot usually have a front radar (as you mentioned earlier, terrain alarm) giving the pilot a suggestion a solid object is in your flight path and that you do something about it. But its the argument firetruck + aeroplane = crash with solid stationary object, whats wrong.Can it possibly have anything to do with some software dudes again?QuoteYes but why not ask Tesla driver who dont understand the implication of the meaning of Tesla autopilot!But its not car autopilot system unless it does. Or more properly it should be labeled "driver assist" rather this autopilot BS.Im looking forward to fully autonomous cars driving around!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 01:44:23 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 25, 2018, 08:17:04 pmIn US perhaps but not in Europe.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 01:54:14 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 26, 2018, 01:13:28 amMy nearly 30 year old daily driver car has a manual gearbox and cruise control, it works exactly like having a cruise control with an automatic. There's a combination vacuum valve/electrical switch on the clutch pedal in series with an identical unit on the brake pedal that both disengages the vacuum solenoid on the throttle and signals to the controller that the clutch has been pressed. When you depress either pedal the cruise control automatically disengages, so if you need to downshift on a steep grade for example you simply shift normally and then hit Resume. As was mentioned above though, shifting is rarely needed in the situations in which one would be using the cruise control, namely long trips on wide open highways.The thing that gets me is almost invariably when I engage cruise, some idiot passes me and then slows down. I don't understand why they don't just stay behind me if they don't want to go faster than I was going. That is one advantage those fancy newer auto adjusting cruise controls have.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 01:55:56 am
content: Quote from: paulca on January 25, 2018, 03:23:05 pmAn even bigger difference is that autopilots in aircraft are operated by highly trained professionals in most cases, not distracted soccer moms or teenagers absorbed in their mobile phones.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 02:08:20 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on January 24, 2018, 10:33:28 pmYes, like watching a porno on the cars entertainment system and masturbating with right hand while opening a can of cola with left hand! I do the same here but only on outback roads!

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 02:09:55 am
content: Quote from: MT on January 26, 2018, 01:24:05 amForward radar in civilian airplanes is for weather, not for object/obstacle avoidance. It's true that it will pickup returns from the Earth (and that's how you set/verify the tilt for your current flight regime), but that's not useful for terrain avoidance and is completely useless for other obstacle/airplane avoidance.Source: I'm a pilot and have weather radar in one of my airplanes.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 02:42:40 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 25, 2018, 10:58:53 pmThey do something even worse where I’m at in the US (Virginia): They monitor your speed via aircraft! On the interstate, you’ll occasionally see white lines painted across the road. The purpose of them is so a spotter in a small plane circling overhead can time you to determine your speed (if it takes you less than X seconds to pass two white lines, you’re going above the speed limit). The plane then radios the details of your vehicle to a cruiser that’s ahead of you, who then pulls you over.Think about how insane that is.We’re one of the few states left that prefer LIDAR instead of radar as well (which is one of the reasons VA requires ugly front license plates, so there will be a flat, reflective target for the laser).

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 03:10:44 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 26, 2018, 03:06:18 amJust be aware that driving over 80mph (*or* 20mph over the speed limit) *anywhere* in VA will automatically net you a ticket for reckless driving. You got lucky that cop either had another target or was on a call.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 03:34:34 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 26, 2018, 03:23:10 amBe sure to do that when you go under the 11' 8" bridge. It will really be great if you do it in a rental truck. I wonder if you can start a Kickstarter to pay for the truck? I am sure it would get millions of views(hope you do not get hurt).When are you going? Thanks

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 04:32:48 am
content: Quote from: MT on January 26, 2018, 02:08:20 amLMAO!!! And this is why these need to be 100% accurate, 100% of the time or its just a train wreak in slow motion.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 06:05:51 am
content: Quote from: timb on January 26, 2018, 02:42:40 amThey used to do the aircraft thing in Western Australia, & had warning signs to make this known.On one, some joker had graffitied "Pigs in Space!".Another sign which is still common is the one which says " Local Police are now targeting ........",with various motoring sins replacing the dotted line.A somewhat more sophisticated pranker had modified one to say:-" Local Police are now targeting Volvo drivers."

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 06:53:02 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on January 24, 2018, 04:38:01 pmThe Japanese already perfect the latter, and a fine invention it is!

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 04:20:04 pm
content: Interestingly a driving instructor also has to be sober. You cannot let a learner drive you home from the pub. I guess that sets a precedent for the autopilot case.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 05:02:36 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 26, 2018, 04:25:05 pmReading this, the gears in my technical mind instantly started turning, trying to come up with how an autonomous masturbation machine would be constructed.It only took a few seconds to come up with a design. I’m picturing an armature connected to an off balanced rotating disk (like an oil well). Attached to the end of the armature is a Fleshlight(TM).The Fleshlight(TM) would have a small hole drilled in the top, into which a small tube would be inserted. The tube would be attached to a small vacuum pump, allowing additional negative pressure to be created for the user’s pleasure (in addition to extracting the final deposit). You could even back feed a liquid through it so it would be self cleaning!Hmmm... Patent, here I come. (No pun intended.)

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 08:24:42 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 26, 2018, 04:25:05 pmI seen that video too.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 08:39:16 pm
content: Reminds me of an article I saw probably 20 years ago. Apparently "teledildonics" is an actual thing. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by this.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 08:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 26, 2018, 08:39:16 pmWhatever you do, don't ask how I know this.http://www.lovelifetoys.com/OhMiBod-BrandHave we suitably derailed the thread for a Friday evening or so we need to try harder?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 08:46:37 pm
content: Huhuh you said "harder"

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 08:49:08 pm
content: Tools for that enclosure?(I'll get my coat.)

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 08:55:28 pm
content: I think there is another post about a DUI. According to my local paper, (that quotes the Wash Post) this is the same story. The driver was twice the legal limit and had "tenuous relationship with consciousness" when the car hit the truck. Nothing about speed. The driver said he wasn't driving, the car was. The driver was arrested, the article did not say if the car was arrested.Does the Tesla use any fluids? If so maybe there was alcohol in the fluids and the car was driving under the influence?Can you have a beer with your T?Drunk cars - whats next. Right now I see a white one parked across the street. It is not rocking.If the engineer who wrote the software was under the influence - does this make the car become under the influence?

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:03:22 pm
content: Appears to be a known "feature" that Tesla's (and Volvo's) don't recognise a stationary object directly ahead if the vehicle in front changes lane. Which appears to be what happened when a large pick-up truck changed lanes to avoid the fire-truck.https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-firetruck-crash-details/As stated in Tesla's owners manual (page 77):“Traffic-Aware Cruise Control cannot detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead.”https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_s_owners_manual_north_america_en_us.pdf

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on January 26, 2018, 02:09:55 amThats why telsa autopilot and front radar is crap, should be able to see flying firetruck besidesCessna pilots like yourself are not licensed to fly 747 nor can afford one.The famous phrase: Pull up...Pullup.. should have been...Pull over.... Pull over... in Tesla autopilot system!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 12:14:45 am
content: Quote from: Avacee on January 26, 2018, 11:03:22 pmAnd this is just the beginning. Over time evolution will ensure that there as many gotcha's in the autopilot specification as there are in the C & C++ language specifications.Language lawyers (will) love all three.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 12:36:20 am
content: I just heard that Teslas autopilot system was developed with ST HAL.....

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 12:59:01 am
content: Quote from: MT on January 26, 2018, 11:51:53 pmAssuming facts not in evidence. He never said he had a Cessna, only that he had multiple planes. And considering an old but flyable 747 can be had for as little as $10 million these days, I wouldn't automatically assume it's out of his reach either. Operating and maintenance costs will add up fast, however.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 01:07:28 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 27, 2018, 12:59:01 amPeople are argumentative today i see, your getting hooked on the wrong issues here. It's about Tesla marketing ideasnot correlating with Tesla engineering.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 01:07:59 am
content: An private individual flying a 500-ton plane would be uninsurable.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 01:56:54 am
content: Quote from: helius on January 27, 2018, 01:07:59 amExplain Trump's personal 757 then (he used it up until the inauguration, anyway). If you can afford to buy, maintain, operate, and pay for training and qualified crews, you can afford to insure it.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 02:25:51 am
content: You look to have a particular talent for obfuscation and misdirection. A 757 is not a 500 ton airplane, and no one has ever asserted that it is flown by its major shareholder. He does not own the plane as a private individual:http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=757AFSo your response contained not a single relevant word.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 02:40:51 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on January 26, 2018, 02:09:55 amPeople you are getting planes mixed up. sokoloff is not flying a 757. He is flying a 747

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 02:55:47 am
content: Well, if you're going to get technical, a 747 isn't a 500 ton airplane either. The AN-225 would qualify, but there's only one of those. I doubt you can buy it.And I stand my statement about insurance...if you can afford everything else, the insurance isn't going to be a problem.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 04:36:09 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on January 27, 2018, 02:40:51 amNeither, though I have a handful of hours logged in United's 737 level-D simulators.Beech 36 and Beech 58P. The 58P has weather radar.My only point in posting was to point out that civilian aircraft have weather radar, not fighter radar, the weather radar is not for obstacle avoidance and is not integrated with the autopilot, and so irrelevant to the Tesla crash situation.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 05:30:05 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on January 27, 2018, 04:36:09 pmDon't think that would help either. They are funny things fighter Doppler radars. The minimum track and scan range would be well beyond what was useful for collision avoidance.What IS used for collision avoidance is TCAS.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 05:55:22 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 27, 2018, 05:30:05 pmIndeed. That system relies on other aircraft being equipped with transponders.Transponder-less aircraft are invisible to TCAS.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 06:14:05 pm
content: Someday I hope I can get TSS-P

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 08:15:19 pm
content: When a human screws up it's a lot easier to assign blame to the individual. When the AI screws up, manufactures are gonna get real tired real quick of being blamed for every incident.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 09:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 27, 2018, 07:21:59 pmThe point I was originally trying to make is there is no AI. It's just dumb procedural goal seeking circuits with feedback. They are typically formed from smaller simpler "modes". Bank hold mode, attitude hold mode. More complex modes just use the basic modes, heading hold, altitude hold, climb/descent, IAS hold etc. The flight management system is simply a remote interface to selecting the right modes at the right time.Personally I would like to see procedural autopilots in cars. Similar to cruise control, but just a basic "lane hold" would be nice. However the Tesla shock stories suggest the public are not ready for it. Give them an "auto" anything system and they assume they can have a kip in the back seat!Allegedly there was someone who sued a motor home company because they thought cruise control was an auto pilot and went to make a cup or tea and obviously crashed. That could be an urban myth though.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 11:02:52 pm
content: Few people even remember, but there was once a disagreement over whether "AI" was even a coherent way to talk about autonomous systems (AS).The countervailing science was calledcybernetics.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 11:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on January 24, 2018, 04:38:01 pmWipe as in cleanse mechanically?I think that the casualty rates will be comparable for both applications!So we should be prepared for newslines like 'Man punched in nether parts by robotic toilet'.When they start building things like those, you'll have to take a crowbar and a wirecutter to the loo!Just imagine sitting in your stall when you hear the whine of overdriven servo motors somewhere along the row, followed by >Thud< OW! >Thud< OW! >Thud< OW!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 11:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: helius on January 27, 2018, 11:02:52 pmWas cybernetics ever ascience? It always seemed more like a philosophy to me.The more I tried to understand the core principles andpredictionsof cybernetics, the more it seemed like an amorphousidea/concept.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 12:00:00 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 27, 2018, 11:45:39 pmI'm not sure I can properly defend that word. Also the boundaries of different camps have drifted over time as they try to co-opt the others' discoveries, or define away their objections. Some researchers definitely seem to have switched sides: compare Terry Winograd's SHRDLU thesis with his later views inUnderstanding Computers and Cognition, which are much closer in the embodied-cognition space and flatly reject the idea that intelligence is a data-processing problem.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 08:10:28 am
content: The litmus I would use for AI is, learning and adaption. If it has neither it's not AI. If it has one but not the other it's debatable.Feedback control systems, even complex ones are not AI, they will do the exact same thing, no matter how wrong giving the same set of inputs.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 10:04:26 am
content: The term "Artificial Intelligence" was coined 50 years ago when we had a very naive idea of what natural intelligence is. The idea of AI is "whatever it is that humans do so well, we want to do that with software* (but leave out the faulty parts)". So the initial idea was to encode a set of rules into a computer, job done.Decades later we are still trying to work out exactly what natural intelligence does, let alone how it does it. Some people argue that we can never make computer software intelligent on principle, others argue that super-intelligent computers that far outstrip us are just around the corner. Personally, I think the truth is close to the first option, software can be better than humans in some very specific domains, but "general intelligence" will elude us for decades. They call it "the hard problem" for a reason...Moving back to Tesla... when I drive I am not just looking at the vehicle in front, but all the traffic (and other hazards) ahead. The question is how can car software implement that? If all vehicles had transponders, they can relay information to each other. However, you still need to deal with legacy vehicles, vehicles which have broken down, as well as many other non-vehicular hazards which won't have a transponder. It seems like you could never have a truly autonomous vehicle, unless it goes so slowly it can always stop safely for unexpected obstacles.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 11:46:24 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on January 28, 2018, 10:04:26 amThis is what I was thinking. Self driving cars sharing information about the road conditions and traffic. It would almost completely remove traffic snarl ups which are usually caused by human "pack" behaviour to bunch up in groups. That and people travelling well beyond the average flow rate. Accelerating to 40mph just to get to the back of a queue and stop for 10 seconds then repeat. If they just sat at 20mph they could sustain that speed the whole way.Legacy cars is why I will not get into a driverless car for a long long time. The random human element will just through the AI curve balls it's not expecting and doesn't have a solution for.Also... I expect driverless cars will be trolled very easily. All it takes is one cocky little teenager to stick his foot out and your car will stop. He can stand there and wind you up for ages until you get out and lamp him.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 12:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 28, 2018, 11:46:24 amBut can that information be trusted? It's only a matter of time before some bright guy decides to sent out false traffic data to manipulate their local situation. One transmitter can easily pretend to be many vehicles, so resolving conflicts may not be so easy. And since the system has to fail in the direction of safety, even conflict resolution can be manipulated.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 12:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 24, 2018, 03:16:31 pmThe worst offenders are people darting in front of trucks and semi trailers thinking they have the same stopping distance of a car. Totally inconsiderate driversAuto pilot or driverless vehicles won't ever work until all vehicles in close proximity are networking together and this is a can of worms in itself.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 01:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 28, 2018, 12:05:08 pmIt's annoying that so many ideas are excluded because we have dick heads in the world.That said, there is nothing stopping me smashing the neighbours window and stealing their TV. Of course it's a crime and if the police catch up to me I might go to jail for it.My point is, there are many examples of things which we can't stop people doing, but rely on police to catch wrong doers and put them somewhere they can't wrong do again. But that opens up a can of chicken regarding the mostly broken legal systems we currently have and (in the UK) the near total lack of police numbers to actually enforce the current laws never mind new ones.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 04:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 28, 2018, 01:57:23 pmThis is a good point.In fact, most traffic control systems in urban areas (in the US at least) use extensive automation. Rows of stop lights synchronize down a road, the timing changes depending on time of day, one side of an intersection will stay green until a car pulls up to the red side.Most importantly, these traffic systems use sensors to turn the lights green for oncoming emergency vehicles. You can see the sensor on top of the traffic light (or on the pole next to it). The white strobe lights on the emergency vehicle flash in a specific pattern and/or frequency, which the sensor picks up and sets the light green (and all other lights of the intersection red).Now, you can hack these sensors with nothing more than an off the shelf party strobe light, some simple electronics and a large IR filter (which allows you to place the unit on your windshield without visible flashing). Of course this is against the law and can land you in jail, which is a pretty good deterrent for most people.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 06:20:25 am
content: In the UK almost all traffic lights are automated and have been for 30 or 40 years. They use coils embedded in the road to sense cars via the current they generate in the wire.They can be hacked by using a bucket filled with old nails. Which incidentally is what they use to test them.Usually the presence sensors can measure not just that a car is there, but if there is 1, 2, 3 or 4 cars waiting. On top of that the lights have a minimum cycle which varies at different times of day.Unfortunately they have issues. I owned a motorbike with an aluminium engine block. The only bit of iron/steal was the small frame. Lots of times if I was coming down the "lesser route" the lights would remain red for me until a car came, or I took the change and went through the red.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:13:48 am
content: Quote from: paulca on January 27, 2018, 09:38:57 pmIt's an urban legend that nobody has been able to back up with any documented facts. It wouldn't surprise me if someone was stupid enough to try such a thing though if the system was called autopilot.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:46:26 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on January 24, 2018, 04:38:01 pmYep the Japanese have a toilet that does that

author: tatus1969
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 09:44:04 am
content: Do I get this right that the Tesla went into a fire truck? Maybe this was by intention, because the responsible software engineer knew that the batteries will sooner or later self-ignite. Which safer place could the car have chosen?

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 01:17:49 pm
content: I wonder how well the Tesla deals with obstacles if there's some other vehicle in front. Maybe the Tesla was behind another vehicle that swerved around the truck at the last moment, leaving it with not enough space to actually do something. I don't think the current autopilot actually avoids obstacles by swerving into another lane, afaik it just tries to brake as hard as possible when it's about to collide.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 05:48:42 pm
content: The problem with any auto pilot will be firstly humans, secondly human stupidity and theirdly humans not obeying the road rules and lastly any situation not attributed to the former 3 but still difficult to translate into a rule. There are so many times that road regulations are ignored and I see it getting worse. Once you had to make sure no one was overtaking on your right when pulling out, now you have to make sure your not being undertaken on your left when you pull back in. Roundabouts are a no mans lanes of do whatever the fuck you want. As previously stated it's all auto pilots or none and the machine will always be blamed when there is an accident.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 06:41:20 pm
content: Regarding those 3 problems (which I agree with) TheAA (large UK-based vehicle breakdown and insurance company) commissioned a survey amongst drivers they insure and 70% considered themselves to be an above average driver and a whopping 0.8% regarded themselves as below par.Or as I read that: 99.2% see little to no reason to try and improve their driving skills.http://www.theaa.ie/blog/70-of-drivers-rate-themselves-as-above-average/This one made me laugh: 86.8% of 17-24 year old males rated themselves above averageI wouldn't be surprised if Tesla's AutoPilot is better than the average young male driver.

author: David C
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 06:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 25, 2018, 10:58:53 pmEveryone is different behind the wheel. In my case, I get easily distracted however I do not get sleepy even on 10h+ drives. I enjoy cruise control usage because it allows me to pay more attention to the road and to maintain a steady speed and it's also easier to tell if a car is closing in or keeping a similar speed in the distance, especially at night. I get most distracted from looking at things down the road than anything else, that's why not having to worry about maintenance speed allow me to dedicate more of my focus on what I should be looking at and what I shouldn't be staring at too long. I drive automatic and music is my way of staying alert, as singing along isn't gonna make you fall asleep or dizzy. However my coworker who drives the same car as I do needs to always have a coffee or soda can in his hand because he easily falls asleep on highway drive. Having something that can be a mess to drop in his hand is his way of reminding to stay alert and focus on the road. Driving manual on the highway isn't gonna save you from sleepy head, unless your clutch is slipping when going uphill.Rich or poor, money doesn't mean you're good or bad behind the wheel. Still I agree that the bigger or more expensive car you have, the more you expose the "bad driver" side of your personality.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 06:53:04 pm
content: Quote from: Avacee on January 29, 2018, 06:41:20 pmHm, depends on what you consider driving skills. I'll admit that I'm not a stunt driver but i know my limits and the limits of my car, I'm quite happy to have a female friend in the front seat that alerts me to something I have missed, more so than friends that can't drive. I'm going to guess that in the UK people consider the measure of their skill to be inversely proportional to the distance in which they can affect an overtake and directly proportional to the speed at which they can do it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 06:58:48 pm
content: I realize most people rate themselves better than average drivers but I've got data to prove that I am. More than 20 years of driving and I've never gotten a ticket, not even so much as a parking ticket. Never had an accident of any sort except for people rear-ending me while I've been stopped at a red light. I was pulled over by the police just once in my life because my license plate light was burned out. I don't personally know anyone else who can claim such a squeaky clean driving record. I'm well aware of the limitations of the machine and of myself and stay within those limits.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:05:31 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 29, 2018, 06:58:48 pmBasically you are saying "I must be a good driver because I never got caught being a bad one".I love speed cameras not only does it stop people speeding it stops them driving like assholes. As soon as the camera's are gone they go back to harassing people on the road.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:11:43 pm
content: Surely if I were a bad driver I'd have been caught by now? Or I'd have hit something? I mean I don't avoid the police, I don't own a radar detector, I don't drive differently when I think nobody is watching. You're welcome to ride with me if you want a demonstration. I watch where I'm going, I never play with my phone, eat, or do other non-driving things while I'm behind the wheel. I do all my own mechanical work so I have a solid understanding of how the car works, I have a good understanding of physics, I have excellent vision and good situational awareness. I obey the laws generally and am not aggressive. I am absolutely confident that I'm a better than average driver and would challenge anyone observing to point out a deficiency. Around here probably 70% of the population can't even drive a manual gearbox, something I consider a fairly basic measure of competency.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:15:08 pm
content: ok I'll believe you, it's really not worth coming over for a demo...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:19:17 pm
content: I probably just jinxed myself anyway. By now I'm overdue to do something horrendously stupid.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:26:56 pm
content: hahahaha

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:31:55 pm
content: It's not just nasty aggressive drivers, there are plenty of people that just don't seem to have a clue what they are doing. I could not pull off a roundabout a few weeks ago because some stupid person had undertaken me to take the same exit, I had to go around again and then remembered why i always hog the curbside lane...... Luckily i was looking and i did not particularly want to end up in dispute about the rules of the road having been hit by someone that did not know them.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:41:21 pm
content: I would have to say that the dashcam is one of the best advances in road safety of recent years. The fact that the rager doesn't know who has one, is a good deterrent.As for speed cams, not all speeding is dangerous but dangerous drivers almost always are speeding. Therefore they do help to clear the dangerous ones off the road.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:44:43 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 29, 2018, 07:11:43 pmI actually enjoy driving a manual gearbox. I feel that I have more control and, besides, they are fun to drive. Alas, neither current vehicle has one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:47:54 pm
content: I see it every day, jackasses who are simply not paying attention at all, or driving aggressively and weaving through traffic on a busy highway, usually to end up stuck in traffic only one or two cars ahead of me later. Speeding (within reason) is not inherently a huge problem but driving too fast for conditions is, as soon as we get a dusting of snow around here there is no shortage of examples. An inch of snow and there are wrecks everywhere and dozens of cars in ditches, usually it's the 4WD SUVs that are the worst. People who have them seem to think that 4WD makes then invincible, I guess it doesn't occur to them that all cars have 4 wheel brakes. Even just rain, people will blast down the freeway at speeds appropriate for a dry sunny day, and follow ridiculously close.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:53:58 pm
content: Don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but here in the US the "rules of the road" are highly variable. Each of the 50 states has their own variant. While any states drivers license gives the full right to drive in all of the other states.The examples that follow will have to be translated for those who drive on the left side of the road, but I am sure the same principals apply worldwide.Things like- When you are making a left turn into a multi-lane road with a center turning lane can you turn into the center lane and then merge into traffic as it clears? When at a traffic light making a left turn, is it legal to enter the intersection, and then finish the turn during the yellow light as the traffic clears. Is a right turn allowed at a traffic stop after completing a full stop and evaluating traffic. On a multi-lane controlled access road, can someone temporarily using a higher speed lane impede traffic in that lane while passing a slow vehicle?These questions and many others have different answers in different jurisdictions, along with passionate supporters of each of the positions. Problems arise from this, both for human drivers and any developmental autopilots.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 07:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on January 29, 2018, 07:41:21 pmYes and no, there are not enough of them yet and no driver has been made an example of yet using evidence from one. Someone attempted to road rage me. Decided to used a T junction to do a 180 and I had to slam my breaks on due to the unexpectedness of the maneuver so i hooted at him. He didn't like that but being the driver of this massive BMW 4x4 with wheels that probably come up to my waste he reversed again and chased me, overtaking me and stopping right in front of me. So I just sat there pointing at the camera, it took him a while to twig through his sexy tinted back windows, but when he finally realized that I was pointing at a camera and not giving him "the finger" (while his better half was probably trying to convince him not to "do it") He sped off once again breaking the limit and took an exit off the roundabout that took him far away.Sadly the camera was a piece of crap and did not record the events or would have taken it to the police.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 08:04:23 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 29, 2018, 07:53:58 pmsteady on there, what is a multi lane road ?I see problems here when dual carriage ways merge with little warning, or you ext a roundabout with a dual carriageway exit that then quickly narrows to one in like 3 car lengths. A new one off what was once a single lane roundabout has just been put in a mile down the road. They took the one lane roundabout, made it slightly smaller to take their idea of 2 lanes and now instead of a small single lane roundabout with 3 exits it's a tiny roundabout with 3 exits one of which is flanked by a narrow bypass lane with the two merging into one lane after the aforementioned 3 car lengths after exiting the roundabout. I would defy an autopilot to negotiate this with ease. Here in the UK road builders seem to think they can squeeze more lanes into the same space to save the cost of land or rebuilding the junction as 30 years later it is no longer fit for purpose.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 08:05:59 pm
content: The old "Don't be a dick" rule can solve so many of the issues out there. That applies to a lot more than driving.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 09:29:42 pm
content: Hey Simon, I know you guys have multi-laned roads. I have seen the dashcam footage. I am sure that you have far more narrow secondary routes than we do. Except in unique areas like Boston and in mountainous areas.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 09:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 29, 2018, 09:29:42 pmI'd love to know how they cope with the currently fashionable "shared spaces" a.k.a. "reduced demarcation zones", where the distinction between the roadway and footway is deliberately minimised.Ashford:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1468147,0.8700198,3a,37.8y,110.49h,91.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqZy91oBFr5EdueEpNeuFKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656London:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4965359,-0.1736953,3a,75y,347.28h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sab_YuaaALzAgKHfCRNdYsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656Gloucester:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8645614,-2.2469583,3a,36y,212.92h,89.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOCffbeKTLD393-DCcyvBxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 11:25:04 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 29, 2018, 07:53:58 pmActually, that rule has been the same in all 50 states since 1980 -- it's allowed unless there's a sign disallowing it. But it was a real gotcha when I was a young driver....my state and the states on either side had different rules.Another one is "what do the curb colors mean?". California is a bit unique in that respect, with red, blue, green, white, and yellow all being used.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:32:06 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 29, 2018, 11:25:04 pmThere are still variations. It's illegal in New York City. It's legal in some states against a right red arrow, but not in others. Most states allow left on red one-way to one-way. Some don't. Some states allow left on red two-way to one-way. Most don't.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:40:23 am
content: Just on the news. Tesla is now selling flame throwers (and a lot of them).And of course California is trying to outlaw them.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 07:34:42 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on January 30, 2018, 06:40:23 amCalifornia outlawed actual flamethrowers years ago. Some politician is in a snit because the product, despite it's name, isn't a flamethrower in any legal or military sense (the CA law defines it as devices that throw flames more than 10 feet). It's a common propane blow torch dressed up to look like a gun. Lots of people use blow torches for legitimate tasks, so I suspect someone will get a clue after a while.I have to hand it to Elon on this one. He's taken something that cost maybe $50 per to make in quantity and sold them for $500 each. That's a chunk of change!I'd get the $30 Harbor Freight model if I wanted a blow torch:https://www.harborfreight.com/propane-torch-with-push-button-igniter-91037.html. It does everything Elon's does, except for looking like a gun.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 07:50:05 am
content: I'll just leave this here:

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 07:53:03 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 29, 2018, 09:29:42 pmYes we do but by the sounds of your descriptions not on the scale we have, as I said in my response there is a cohabitation of single and dual carriageways where the merging of the two is hairdressing at best.The problem in this country is that if you don't drive up someones arse someone else over/under takes you to fill the gap as though they will get there quicker so slowing down properly for junctions is a total waste of time.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 07:54:21 am
content: Quote from: paulca on January 30, 2018, 07:50:05 amyour joking right?Edit: A collegue assures me it's actually great.....Near him is this one:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4248772,-0.7299517,230m/data=!3m1!1e3 It's a roundabout with a dual carriageway going through it........ thing is it used to be just exits off the dual carriageway. Couple of months ago someone got killed there..... Trying to turn right off the dual carriageway that has lights on it, it's bonkers.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 08:13:01 am
content: There are 3 lanes approaches to roundabouts a lot around here. Usually the roundabout has only 2 lanes, but there is a left turning hand filter lane.In Malaga Spain they have roundabouts with 3 lanes in and only two lanes on the roundabout, there wasn't even a right hand exit! I picked the middle lane and approached cautiously to go straight on. I had Spanish drivers coming down both sides. I had to wait on a gap in the mayhem to get into the roundabout. Stressful!

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 08:14:13 am
content: Surely he was driving on the wrong side.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 09:18:49 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 30, 2018, 07:54:21 amOn the few occasions I have accidentally found myself in it, I find the Swindon "magic roundabout" is easy and intuitive to use.QuoteThere are many examples of such junctions; a couple I'm aware of areBicester:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Bicester/@51.8928222,-1.1623758,207m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4876c32cd3273725:0xb3ce1aea8934b1a1!8m2!3d51.899603!4d-1.1535899Oxford Park&Ride:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Oxford/@51.7280982,-1.2479509,207m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48713380adc41faf:0xc820dba8cb547402!8m2!3d51.7520209!4d-1.2577263I doubt they are any worse for an autonomous vehicle than generic city roads.OTOH, there are many places where the road/footway boundaries are deliberately obscured by removing kerbs (which makes it impossible for blind longstiock and guide dog users, but who cares about them).

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:56:27 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 30, 2018, 09:18:49 amI wonder how my compatriot Hans Monderman who thought up the concept of shared space for all traffic unites his philosophy with the need of those signs. Maybe he didn't anticipate how mobile phone use is turning all foot traffic sight impaired? At least put some stones with a raised relief on the kerb ...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 12:36:03 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on January 30, 2018, 11:56:27 amHe didn't, of course. He took some interesting observations and extrapolated them a little bit further than was sensible. Arguably that's Clarke's Second Law.The followers that came afterwards saw they could make money from the ideas, and turned the observations into a libertatian dogma with many religious overtones. All ideas had to be applied to the maximum; where they "weren't" and there was trouble, the dogmatic salesman claimed it was because they had been prevented from doing a complete job. Specific examples: Poynton, and Exhibition Rd in London.Does that remind anyone of XP (Extreme Programming)?QuoteThat would be against the dogma.They were told repeatedly about it crippling blind people, and a typical reaction was "we'll retrain the guide dogs" - despite being repeatedly told that was impossible.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 01:50:02 pm
content: Bluetooth kerbs.(I will patent that. Don't try and beat me to it!)

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 02:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 30, 2018, 01:50:02 pmThis is a common sight in Northern Ireland:Do Blue White and Red kerbs count as an early version of bluetooth?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 05:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 30, 2018, 07:54:21 amThree questions:1st. Language - Is a carriageway what we call a freeway here in the US?2nd. Can you imagine the chaos if someone actually followed the arrows all the way around on the small outer circles in this picture?3rd. There are lots of pedestrians shown on the various islands. Is it as terrifying to be on foot as it appears?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:00:43 pm
content: 1. A carriageway is a lane2. That is probably why it is called the magic roundabout3. I can't even work out why they are there, perhaps they are sightseers

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 30, 2018, 06:00:43 pmIt's probably a while since most people studied the Highway Code...A lane is a lane, a carriageway is more complex. A single carriageway (aka road) is an undivided set of lanes, which may be single direction or opposing direction. A dual-carriageway is a divided set of lanes, but not necessarily a motorway. A motorway (aka freeway) is a type of dual carriageway, but with special rules.By "divided", they mean a physical barrier not just white lines.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:36:57 pm
content: Yes You are correct. I totally forgot about the other side of the road

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on January 30, 2018, 06:12:12 pmMethinks someone may have taken up the 'offer' of some 'additional training' recently.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:41:44 pm
content: hahahahahaha

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:43:42 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 30, 2018, 05:27:48 pmYes, I can easily imagine it. There would be absolutely zero chaos.It is likely that it would take longer to get off the roundabout, but that is all.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on January 30, 2018, 02:29:08 pmI'm actually from Co. Down.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 02:53:00 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 30, 2018, 06:43:42 pmMaybe the folks in the photo aren't using this traffic control method properly, but chaos seems the right description of what would happen if people on the right circle tried to follow the arrows. The inner lane is going exactly the other direction. The next circle up and left is almost as bad. The other three with the current traffic don't seem to be a problem, but it seems likely that different traffic patterns occur at different times of day.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:52:27 am
content: I suspect it might look more chaotic from above than it does when driving on the ground. Also the fact that it's somewhere that drives on the "wrong" side of the road compared to what I've done my whole life makes it look even more chaotic.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 08:45:18 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 31, 2018, 02:53:00 amYou are in the US and are therefore unlikely to have much, if any, experience of roundabouts - unless you live in Boston.It is traditional for Americans starting to drive in Europe to be apprehensive of roundabouts. After they have gained experience, they usually think they are work well without problems.A key observation is that with "mini" roundabouts, their mode of action is mainly to signal who has priority. Yes, you are supposed to go around them, but people are sensible and take that with a pinch of salt.EDIT added: In the case of Swindon, all that is needed is to follow a few blindingly obvious rules:point the car towards the exit you want; standard behaviourfollow the painted lines; standard behaviourgive way to cars on a roundabout; standard behaviouravoid collisions, doh!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 08:59:46 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 31, 2018, 08:45:18 amRoundabouts don't work anymore. The one near me on a dual carriageway is a nightmare and it's not because it's a roundabout it's how people use it. Most people these days treat roundabouts as an inconvenience that needs taming into being just another part of the road and as such are known to take it in a straight line crossing lanes at will in order to get from one side to the next without going "around" it. This means that someone on their left that could otherwise use the roundabout cannot as these ignorant lazy bastards take up both lanes or more. Speeds on roundabouts are no longer those suited to a junction as once again people treat them as a mere inconvenience and go as fast as they can again making it impossible for anyone to get onto the roundabout until they have finished having their way with it. On this particular roundabout I make a point of going around slowly to hold up the traffic from the dominating dual carriage way (that just go there at 70-80mph undertaking other drivers despite the 50mph limit) so as to give the smaller lanes from town a chance.A mini roundabout not far from where I work is indeed placed in such a way that going around it is very awkward and most of us actually take it on the wrong side, as you say it simply allocates priority.As much as i hate traffic lights I am tarting to become a fan because they make people do what they are supposed to do, because as soon as you give people a little credit for being intelligent and you give them a roundabout they make other peoples lives a misery.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 09:17:23 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 31, 2018, 08:59:46 amOh, that's overstated; don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!Similar statements could be made about specific examples of just aboutanyroad architecture. For example, keeping it to "roundabouts", the M25 is a pain therefore all motorways should be abandoned! Ahem.QuoteWhat I object to is not-roundabouts like this one in Poynton shared space:The designer, the fragrant Ben Hamilton-Baillie, repeatedly and explicitly states that is not a roundabout and there is nothing to indicate it is. However, woe betide someone that tries (as I chose to once) not use it as a roundabout - other drivers (rightly) look aghast. It is unclear how insurance companies regard it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 09:21:54 am
content: the problem I have is that when you give a driver a choice between driving like a cock with impunity or being nice they often chose the former, so anything that allows such a choice quickly has any benefit eroded. Things that say "do this and if you don't you are breaking the law and may be prosecuted" are sadly all that some people respond to.The situation is exacerbated by the fact that law enforcement is hardly carried out on our roads anymore unless it's a speed camera put up due to outcries from multiple fatalities or to make money.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 10:21:47 am
content: Myth busters tested this, for what that is worth. Roundabout versus 4 way stop. Roundabout provided around double throughput.However at busy times when one particular route is much higher volume the other routes get completely stuffed. Around here several roundabouts have resorted to traffic lights placed at 2 or 3 locations around the roundabout.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 11:32:55 am
content: Roundabouts work in moderate traffic, in heavy traffic they become completely useless, when people use them with no consideration for others they just become a source of accidents.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 02:26:56 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 31, 2018, 11:32:55 amIn heavy traffic everything becomes fraught. I live in one of the UK's most congested cities and the roundabouts are theleastof the problems. as measured in the only sensible way: based on queuing theory. Let tfastbe the time a journey when there is no other traffic, and tslowbe the time taken when there is congestion. The measure of congestion is (tslow/tfast)-1, i.e. the extra time taken due to congestion.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 02:42:53 pm
content: Fluid dynamics says the less lanes there are the faster you go :-)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:21:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 31, 2018, 02:26:56 pmMy 10 minute journey takes 20 minute because i constantly run into junctions. The aforementioned roundabout is not fit for purpose as there is a constant stream of a dual carriageway through it and the smaller roads are left quing. The roundabout therefore does not work. It should have been turned into a proper fly over but that would have cost too much.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:22:10 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on January 31, 2018, 02:42:53 pmFaster, maybe maybe not. But nobody with any sense cares aboutspeed(any more than they care about miles per gallon).The only sensible metrics are journey time (and gallons).For the challenged, I like to point out to people that whereas their urban journeys average, say 40mpg, I could increase that to 60mpg. All I would have to do is make go between the same endpoints via motorway to and from a city 100 miles away, at 45mph. Similarly, a 25mph journey could be turned into a 50mph journey by driving along the motorway at 70mph.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 31, 2018, 03:21:10 pmAnecdote != data != information.In my case a 10min journey can turn into 40 mins at rush hour, without roundabouts. (And even worse when the principal bridge isn't there, but they try not to do that at peak hours!)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 31, 2018, 03:25:56 pmWhat on earth does that mean ? it's not anecdote for starters. It's a simple measured fact for a particular route I take the same as yours is in response to your point.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:43:35 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 31, 2018, 03:25:56 pmShit I bet you're a load of fun in the pub!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 31, 2018, 03:43:35 pmIt is true that anecdote does not mean data, but i don't see where the anecdote was in the first place.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 05:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 31, 2018, 03:45:22 pmor were data was required or who by.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 05:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 31, 2018, 05:06:23 pmThere was an anecdote about a particular roundabout.There was assertions that need data, since they were about the relative effectiveness/desirability of roundabouts and traffic lights.That kind of thing reminds me of when I was a kid. O-level comprehension multiple choice exams had 5 options likestatement A is false and statement B is falsestatement A is true and statement B is falsestatement A is false and statement B is truestatement A is true and statement B is true, but B does not follow from Astatement A is true and statement B is true, and B does follow from AThe first 3 were relatively simple, but a higher proportion people were confused by 4 and 5.I'm not sure whether GCEs had or GCSEs have such questions.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 05:53:21 pm
content: roundabouts are a common feature that mostly work in the same way.IF one entry to it is continually queued up with carsTHEN the lane to it's left can go effing whistle for a look in and will never have right of way.ELSE some other high use entry must in turn be present to it's right making it give way now and then thus allowing the aforementioned blocked exit to get a look in.I think the conception of roundabout was probably originally for junctions where each entry was of equal size/importance and traffic was not heavy, it only takes a brief analysis of the highway code and consideration of the circumstances whereby a busy dual carriageway feeds into one or more entry points to understand that in such a case the roundabout ceases to function as intended.There is a reason why to become a motorway an A road must get rid of it's cheaper "in line" roundabouts and replace them with flyovers of one sort of the other depending on the landscape.If you look at the A1(M) you find that the "(M)" means that it aspires to become a motorway and if you look at it over the last few years you will see (particularly if you use an outdated satnav) that many in line roundabouts have been replaced by flyover roundabouts that don't obstruct the dual carriageway thus speeding up the flow of traffic on the whole road.On the roundabout in question there is a few hundred metre approach with a 50mph limit, obviously no one observes this so the traffic from the dual carriage ways is constantly on the roundabout.The only way to make this roundabout work is either traffic lights OR speed cameras on the dual carriageway approaches because like i said people only obey the rules of the road if breaking them gets them into trouble, roundabouts rely more on human intelligence and respect than, I'll behave because otherwise I'll get caught. It's not just this roundabout, I see the same behaviour on any roundabout.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 06:44:56 pm
content: And if you want more data a chief police officer has just opened his stupid mouth without engaging his brain. He is proposing to fine people for breaking the speed limit by just 1mph, this apparently is in response to 3x the amount of speeding drivers. Oh dear, how to stop speeding? reduce the threshold so that anyone driving reasonably also gets caught. The link between an increase in speeding and reduced enforcement particularly visible police presence escapes this one man..... The best driving I have ever seen is between average speed cameras even if the odd idiot think that they can break the limit by 30mph only to slow down right in front of the camera......

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 07:02:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 31, 2018, 05:53:21 pmHere they tend to have traffic lights on large busy 'off a' motorway roundabouts.Another trick used is to design medium size roundabouts with blocked sight sightlines (Christmas Trees in the middle etc) This causes drivers to slow down/ stop before they enter, as they cannot see traffic already on the roundabout, untill about to enter it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 08:32:45 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 31, 2018, 05:53:21 pmEverythinghas dysfunctional aspects; it isn't difficult to find "suboptimal" behaviour with traffic lights. For a start they were probably originally for junctions where the relative traffic loads could be predetermined, and when the estimates were wrong people had to queue unnecessarily. Traffic lights aren't very adaptable.There are some around here where I have to stop from 40mph even when there is no traffic waiting on the other roads.So, choose your poison; don't mention that X is poisonous without also mentioning that Y is poisonousQuoteI wouldn't dream of thinkingyourexperience onthatroundabout was anything other than you describe. But that doesn't generalise to other roundabouts.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 08:34:46 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 31, 2018, 06:44:56 pmI've watched the local elected Police Commissioner decline to answer the question "will the police enforce the council's new 20mph speed limits".

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 01:00:13 am
content: I'm not going to say that roundabouts are *always* the solution but there are two intersections near me where 4 way signals were replaced with roundabouts several years ago and it was a HUGE improvement. The roads used to back up for miles every morning and evening, now with the roundabouts they generally flow pretty smoothly. Of course there were some teething problems, the first time I encountered them was at night, they hadn't installed the streetlights there yet and I was looking for the traffic signal when suddenly I saw the roundabout directly ahead in the dark and had to slam on my brakes. Had I been driving that route regularly and known about the project it wouldn't have been an issue. It took people a while to get the hang of them but now they work well.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 08:05:24 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 31, 2018, 08:32:45 pmPlain old traffic lights are not perfect by any means but in an age where people have to be made to follow strict rules or they will just take the micky they look attractive. Traffic light technology has also improved over the years and they now have sensors. If you really want to get smart a sensor can also be mounted further up the road to perfectly regulate based on demand. That way the traffic is known and controlled on a case by case basis.They recently replaced the lights on a single lane bridge with smarter ones, things are now much batter as the lights don't go red until there are cars on the other side.I have lost count of the number of times I would have been found to be at fault in the event of an accident in a situation I had no control other than to stay home that day. The system works when people obey the rules, people in driver-less cars will soon find themselves frustrated in the UK at the cars will not get very far very quickly as they constantly have to take evasive action or just stop to avoid being hit. and of course people will realise this and come to abuse the situation knowing the driver-less car will take evasive action if they say pull out in front of it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 09:00:05 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 01, 2018, 08:05:24 amI suspect so, and the results could be amusing - along the lines of the old SF stories where people incapacitated robots by getting them to solve an insoluble conundrum.But there arefarmore issues with CAVs (connected and autonomous vehicles) than that; it is averyactive research area. For some of the issues being considered, seehttp://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/29153/1/UWE%20autonomous%20vehicle%20interactions%20literature%20review%20June%202016.pdf"Understanding interactions between autonomous vehicles and other road users"This review draws on literature relating to the interactions of vehicles with other vehicles, interactionsbetween vehicles and infrastructure, and interactions between autonomous vehicles and cyclists andautonomous vehicles and pedestrians. The available literature relating to autonomous vehicles interactionsis currently limited and hence the review has considered issues which will be relevant to autonomous vehiclesfrom reading and evaluating a broader but still relevant literature.Even the summary lists 17 different questions, and that's only in a small part of the subject space.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 10:18:03 am
content: Autopilot driven cars can be bullied easily, I just can't wait to try it :-) the only problem is, how do you know the tesla next to you is on autopilot?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 10:26:14 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on February 01, 2018, 10:18:03 amDriver asleep at the wheel ?I'm sure it will become apparent.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 11:24:21 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on February 01, 2018, 10:18:03 amSee your one of the people that should not be allowed to drive

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 01:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 01, 2018, 11:24:21 amSo:a) he has a point. You don't think it will happen?b) Your really telling me you won't try it?Trolling AI cars will become a sport, not just for other cars, but pedestrians and cyclists too.I can tell you one thing; an auto driving car would have sat at one particular junction I went through this morning for at least 15 minutes. I only got through by being rude, cheeky and barging my way through the constant queue of Mums trying to get the kids into school blocking a roundabout constantly."COMING THROUGH!"

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 01:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on February 01, 2018, 01:03:03 pmSo basically you see my same problem

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 06:53:50 pm
content: I don't plan on trolling them myself, but 20 years ago I probably would have and I certainly know plenty of people today who would get great amusement from it. I have little doubt there will be loads of people out there messing with them just because they can. It will be interesting to see what happens.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 07:05:54 pm
content: Yes well unfortunately with great freedom comes great responsibility. If you're too stupid to use societies systems responsibly perhaps you should go back to walking across country without access to roads

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 08:50:04 pm
content: Trolling will be a risky proposition. All of the data from the autopilot will be recorded, and in the event of a crash, responsibility will quite possibly land where it is due. It will depend on the type of data collected and recorded, but the liability lawyers will probably get that covered pretty quickly. It also won't be long before non-crash trolling will be detectable and will result in a further level of deterrence.That won't stop trolling, but it should keep it to a minimum.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 09:01:44 pm
content: Well I gather that extensive use of video is made in autopilot cars, so all they need to do is what current dash cams do and keep the recordings of and that lead up to the accident. The problem is that as self driving cars will be so good they will avoid accidents, but at the consequence of making slow progress themselves.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 09:22:27 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 01, 2018, 08:50:04 pmIt can be done anonymously when there are no autonomous vehicles around. Consider these techniques, which might be thought of as "geek cow tipping"https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/08/confusing_self-.htmlResearchers found that they could confuse the road sign detection algorithms of self-driving cars by adding stickers to the signs on the road. They could, for example, cause a car to think that a stop sign is a 45 mph speed limit sign. The changes are subtle, though

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 10:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 01, 2018, 09:22:27 pmAnonymous is an interesting concept in your country, which is reputed to be the country with the most dense video camera coverage in the world, with more cameras coming. People will still be protected by the difficulty of backtracking and identifying on these cameras, but it is already being automated and that protection will get pretty thin as time goes on.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 11:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 01, 2018, 10:14:32 pmOn the US news a few days ago (NBC), they said the US government can track where ALL cars have been for the last 5 years. Because there are 100s of billions of license plate numbers on file. In my city the police drive up and down streets recording the numbers of moving and parked cars. There is one beach community that records ALL numbers as people enter their city in real time and will go after anyone that is flagged or "monitor" them (whatever that means). This is done with cameras at all intersections that lead into their town.In my downtown area, they put cameras up and down every street, funded by our Climate Action Plan!Personally I think we should just to the chase and make everyone get a GPS implant. That way we could track them also

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 01:11:43 am
content: I'm sure people will think of ways to mess with autonomous cars that are technically not illegal. Especially when you consider the trolls who aren't complete dicks won't be out there trying to cause accidents, only messing with the cars in ways that cause annoyance. You can't arrest someone just for being annoying.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 03:19:30 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 02, 2018, 01:11:43 amI would guess that you are right, that a lot of the trolls are going to be looking for entertainment instead of mayhem. But I am also sure that the law of unintended consequences is fully applicable to this as it is to all other things.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 06:37:37 pm
content: Just curious - how do self driving cars deal with traffic signs?thanks

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 06:43:22 pm
content: presumably they use a video camera and do recognition on the video

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 06:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on February 02, 2018, 06:37:37 pmHave you noticed how many "prove you're not a robot" tests tell you to click the squares with (strange) cars/signs/shops/etc in them?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 08:13:55 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 02, 2018, 06:43:22 pmIf this is so, someone will change a "Dead End" sign to "Speed Limit - 60 MPH". In my area there is a Dean End sign on a street that leads to a cliff over a beach. Once a woman ignored the sign and drove over the cliff and died (DUI). I can just see it - someone puts "60 MPH" over the sign and a pile of Teslas end up on the beach. Even worse, a sign that reads "Teslas Turn Here"

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 09:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on February 02, 2018, 08:13:55 pmUnnecessarily crude and liable to prosecution.Thisis, according to the source I gave earlier, misclassified as 45mph 73% of the time.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2018, 10:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on February 02, 2018, 08:13:55 pmBacked up by GPS data.....

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 12:35:53 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 02, 2018, 10:48:30 pmLike that can be relied on... I regularly see news articles where a driver has followed their GPS into trouble.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 08:54:23 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 02, 2018, 10:48:30 pmThere used to be regular NOTAMs near Aberystwyth stating times when GPS should not be relied on. I haven't looked recently to see whether or not they are continuing.Consider that GPS can be and is suddenly disrupted by illegal GPS jammers in trucks. Or look at ship's positions near Sochi.Over-reliance on GPS is a serious problem, to the extent that there have been reports and trials investigating the possible consequences to infrastructure and services. NOTAM: notice to airman, a written notification issued to pilots before a flight, advising them of circumstances relating to the state of flying.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 08:59:48 am
content: Quote from: Avacee on January 24, 2018, 03:02:45 pmHe may well be right: they are designed to "ignore" stationary objects that suddenly appear, e.g. when a car pulls out around a parked vehicle.https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/"Tesla didn't confirm the car was running Autopilot at the time of the crash, but its manual does warn that the system is ill-equipped to handle this exact sort of situation: “Traffic-Aware Cruise Control cannot detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead.”"and"Volvo's semi-autonomous system, Pilot Assist, has the same shortcoming. Say the car in front of the Volvo changes lanes or turns off the road, leaving nothing between the Volvo and a stopped car. "Pilot Assist will ignore the stationary vehicle and instead accelerate to the stored speed," Volvo's manual reads, meaning the cruise speed the driver punched in. "The driver must then intervene and apply the brakes.” In other words, your Volvo won't brake to avoid hitting a stopped car that suddenly appears up ahead. It might even accelerate towards it."QuoteThe insurance and liability situation is far from clear. Those are actively being investigated by research projects in the UK.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2018, 09:48:49 am
content: Quote from: Don Hills on February 03, 2018, 12:35:53 amare you referring to shitty sat navs sold by companies that just want your money? obviously there can be genuine technical problems.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 01:10:07 am
content: And the companies selling autonomous cars don't just want your money? I'm sure the GPS navigation on those will be better, but it's still going to be prone to errors just due to the vast complexity of the road networks. I also strongly suspect that the only viable way for the system to keep up with the continuous changes made to the roads will be to require an ongoing subscription service.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 08:32:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 04, 2018, 01:10:07 amElectric cars already have an ongoing subscription quite often as the manufacturer wants to collect performance data. No GPS alone won't guide nothing but it's another tool to back up or disprove what the car thinks it's seeing on camera. If the car has GPS that knows where the car is not allowed to go it might help avoid things like signs being misread.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 08:51:17 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 03, 2018, 09:48:49 amNo. Life critical ones in aircraft and on ships can be (and are) affected. Hence the official, legally important NOTAMs I mentioned.Foir example, a friend of mine reported that his GPS indicated he was directly over the Boscombe Down (military) runway, but he could see it was at least a mile away off his starboard wing.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 09:01:32 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 03, 2018, 09:48:49 amNo, I was referring to incorrect road databases. For example, leading heavy truck drivers down cart tracks or roads with hairpin turns or low bridges.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2018, 11:11:59 pm
content: Which electric cars require subscriptions to operate? Various friends of mine have a Chevy Bolt, a couple of boxy Kia things, and a couple of Nissan Leafs and none have any sort of subscription.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 01:10:11 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 04, 2018, 11:11:59 pmI think its a reference to the non-optional reporting of usage data, up to and including mapping and imaging data:https://electrek.co/2017/05/06/tesla-data-sharing-policy-collecting-video-self-driving/https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopilot-fleet-data-sharing-policy/Supposedly anonymized but pattern matching can always undo that if needed.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 07:38:16 am
content: That's not a subscription. I don't personally care about telemetry, my mobile phone already provides all that. I just don't want anything else that comes with a monthly bill.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 08:04:39 am
content: it would come as part of the car you would not pay monthly for it but the datalink is probably there is what I am saying so there is an easy route to updating navigation systems. You would think that an autonomous vehicle would need to communicate at some point.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 11:41:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2018, 07:38:16 amYou are fine with it, until your insurance increases, because you use higher "than average" acceleration in your car.And wallmart starts sending you ads, because you shopped there last month.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 12:38:28 pm
content: Don't worry your phone can do that for you

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:17:29 pm
content: The ads would be a deal breaker. The insurance could go either way, as a more careful than average driver I would expect my insurance to drop. Many insurance companies now offer a discount if you connect a logger to your car to record such things. I'd be willing to do so but my 28 year old car lacks OBDII.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2018, 09:55:45 pm
content: in the UK young drivers can have a logger to help but strangely it is not available to older drivers

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 12:50:16 am
content: Not strange. As a rule the accidents of younger drivers can be prevented by behavior modification. Older drivers accidents tend to be from other causes, and unfortunately our behaviors are more firmly fixed.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 01:03:59 am
content: As far as I know, the ones that offer the loggers here do not have age restrictions. I believe the reasoning is that the logger capturing data immediately up to the collision potentially can save them a great deal of money investigating when it is not immediately clear who is at fault in an accident.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 01:24:05 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 05, 2018, 09:55:45 pmLucky you. Here in the US, this can be used against the driver. Like if they were going 36 MPH in a 35 MPH zone. I would bet there is no "grace" speed. In other words doing 36 in a 35 zone is illegal.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 08:01:36 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on February 06, 2018, 12:50:16 amIt was done to help drag down prices for responsible young drivers. at 18 you can easily be paying well over £2000 for a small car, insurance in the UK has become a huge racket, my prices have been going up steadily and I'm about to tell my insurer to stuff it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 08:02:42 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on February 06, 2018, 01:24:05 amWe have a +10%+2 rule here so if your done for speeding you definitely were speeding no if's or buts....

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 09:27:39 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 24, 2018, 08:04:00 pmLatest additions since my own post above ....- 31 January - United States - 2018 Crozet, Virginia train crash: A chartered Amtrak train carrying Republican Party lawmakers from Washington, D.C. to a retreat in White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia collides with a garbage truck at a grade crossing near Crozet, Virginia.One person on the truck is killed and six people are injured.- 4 February - United States - 2018 Cayce, South Carolina train collision: Amtrak Silver Star train #91 traveling from New York City to Miami collided with a CSX freight train early Sunday in Cayce, South Carolina,killing at least two people, injuring at least 100 others, and spilling thousands of gallons of fuel.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 09:56:59 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 06, 2018, 08:01:36 amThat was therationalefor its introduction.Would you bet against there being feature creep?Would you bet that any info collected couldn't be used against a driver after an accident?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 10:05:16 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2018, 09:56:59 amYou mean like my dash cam could? As it is I use a dash cam fully aware that it witnesses what I do as well as other drivers. I personally prefer to have the monitoring to prove what actually happened than not so that I can deny driving like an asshole which I do not.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 11:25:02 am
content: Quote from: Simon on February 06, 2018, 10:05:16 amIt is your "after the event" choice to use a dashcam, or not. That's fine.With the recorder that ability could be taken away from you, and they (corporate or state) could state "you have been driving illegally, were not complying with the terms of your insurance, and are therefore uninsured".Insurance companies can and do use any technique to deny liability. Here's a surprising (to me) one:you park your car legallysomeone else drives into it causing severe damageyou get the perp's detailsthe perp is insuredpolice inspect the scene; there isno doubt the perp is 100% to blamethe perp's insurance company denies the claimyou have to claim on your insurance, thus affecting your record and increasing your re-insurance price next time aroundSo, how does the perp's insurance company escape unscathed? The perp had a heart attack, and that caused the crash. The escape clause is "automatism". It means that accidents that occur after a heart attack (or other medical conditions) are generally found to be out of the driver’s control and, as a result, the perp's insurer is not liable.Still trust insurance companies to behave honourably? I don't.https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/mar/12/driver-heart-attack-wrote-off-my-parked-car-lost-no-claimsP.S. Looks like that can apply in the US as well:https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/car-accidents-caused-medical-emergency.html

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 12:50:54 pm
content: I supposedly get an insurance discount for declaring I have a camera, I'm not aware of the details but always assume that uninsured if my camera is not on.Insurance companies need cracking down on because they have become a racket as you would expect from any aspect of banking that involves so much money going around.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 02:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 06, 2018, 12:50:54 pmI wouldn't touch such a policy with a bargepole. While I can tell whether a camera is on, I can't tell whether it is working properly and storing the video on the card. Hence it is conceivable that I would beunawarethat I'm not insured.To get back to the topic title, considerThe VENTURER trials go hand in hand with developing an understanding of the insurance and legal implications of increased vehicle autonomy.http://www.venturer-cars.com/Autonomous vehicles will also create new challenges and opportunities for automotive and IT sectors insurance firms and will require new legislative framework.https://www.bristol.ac.uk/engineering/research/csn/projects/current/venturer/The trial is being funded by Innovate UK to investigate the legal and insurance aspects of the new technology ...http://www.atkinsglobal.com/en-gb/projects/venturer-driverless-cars

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 02:32:59 pm
content: "Insurance companies can and do use any technique to deny liability. Here's a surprising (to me) one:you park your car legallysomeone else drives into it causing severe damageyou get the perp's detailsthe perp is insuredpolice inspect the scene; there is no doubt the perp is 100% to blamethe perp's insurance company denies the claimyou have to claim on your insurance, thus affecting your record and increasing your re-insurance price next time aroundSo, how does the perp's insurance company escape unscathed? The perp had a heart attack, and that caused the crash. The escape clause is "automatism". It means that accidents that occur after a heart attack (or other medical conditions) are generally found to be out of the driver’s control and, as a result, the perp's insurer is not liable. "Many years ago, my Ex and I had a brand new car-6 months old, that was parked in front of the house. There was snow on the ground. A truck was coming around the corner and slid into the car, pushing it up onto the sidewalk into a tree. The police gave him an at fault ticket. The insurance company took care of fixing the car and then dropped us. I hate insurance companies.Fast forward to last year. We bought my old company van, 2013 Ram CV, basically a Dodge Grand Caravan without seats. I will say that the van is VIN'ed as a commercial vehicle. Progressive refused to insure it as a private vehicle, even though I stated that what the use was going to be. We would not get the multi car discount and they wanted to charge commercial rates. Allstate said, no problem. Multi car discount and insured as a private vehicle, though it does cost more to insure a van than a car, from past experience we knew that. We were with Progressive for 17 years and poof, gone.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 04:17:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2018, 11:25:02 amFunny, you mention, you've been driving "illegally". I find it on a daily basis, that it isimpossibleto drive legally here. I give you examples.Truck stops on a road where there is a continuous centre line. They are moving people, and they dont give a damn about everyone else. You can either break the law, and go into the other lane, or wait until the truck magically evaporates.Speed limit signs only on right side of a 4 way highway. Like, how am I supposed to even see that through a truck.Roads that are not wide enough.Idiot peugeot drivers doing crazy things. The only way to avoid them is to get out of your car, and hide behind a tree, and hope they dont hit you. - by Jeremy ClraksonIntersections, where you are supposed to give way, but you only see 5 meters of the other road, where cars go 50kph. Yeah, sure, two roads supposed to meet at od angles, and you definitely need a house built right next to the road.Roundabouts in citys like Bussels or Paris, where it is a damn free for all elimination game. There is a roundabouts in Brussels, which has 4 lanes turning LEFT from it.Cyclist on a 90kph road with continuous centre line for kilometers.Speed limit set way too low.Idiots driving 1m behind you.Construction workers leaving their signs in your lane. I've seen once, they dig some holes next to the road, so they placed a signs on the road. The holes were behind a meter high concrete posts. Like, you need to total your car to drive into the hole and still, they had to force you into the other lane.I find it, that maybe 20% of the time I can drive somewhere, without breaking the so called law.Good luck with self driving cars.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2018, 04:49:58 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 06, 2018, 04:17:39 pmDon't read too much into the words I thought up on the spot.Nonetheless, where someone can save the corporation money (and therefore get a bonus), their Ts&Cs will be interpreted to their advantage.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2018, 06:42:02 pm
content: It's also impossible here to drive without putting yourself in a situation where you could be blamed for an accident. I do in fact loath driving

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2018, 04:18:55 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 06, 2018, 04:17:39 pmThat's my main issue with this absolute fantasy of self driving cars. Urban driving requires human level AI AND the intentional breaking of the law.If you aren't willing to do both you will cause gridlock and AI won't be able to do either.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2018, 04:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on February 08, 2018, 04:18:55 pmthat is pretty much what I said a way back, the AI car will just sit at a junction and won't be able to move.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2018, 10:45:07 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on February 01, 2018, 11:09:37 pmYep. And also exploding cortical implant for anyone with a security classification. Should prevent anyone going Snowden.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2018, 08:16:32 am
content: Orwell was right.