Pursue legal action to a product that could potentially harm you severely? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:10:50 am
content: Hey guys, I'm about to do a "tool" review on youtube for a product that I purchased from a reputable company,alongside having already notified the manufacturer, and distributor of the product in order to get the word out - editThis "tool" is an electronic tool a vehicle battery jump starter and personal power supply for usb devices, laptops, and other 12 volt devices.Luckily the one that I got was defective and did not work, and thankfully so, because being a member of this forum and a Dave Watcher™ , you can probably safely assume that I'd take it apart. I should have taken it apart before I used it, but I will do so from now on, I promise™.So, onwards with my question, and further story about this thing.If it had worked, and I used it to the manufacturers specification, to jump start a 12v vehicle or a 24v big truck, It very likely would have caught fire and exploded, or just outright exploded. If I had used it to power a 12v 10A device, it would have caught fire and probably exploded as well. or hell, even the 19v laptop output would have caught fire and then exploded the thing.Why?Well,I attached two pictures of the insides of it. The two lithium polymer batteries could not possibly ever deliver the 600Acontinuous and 1200A burst drawclaim posted on the box, and survive forANYlength of time. Hobby batteries of the same 3s and with a 50c rating at 5000mAh could maybe push 250Aburstratings and not be damaged. Try a dead short and see what happens to even the best of them and.... BOOM!The batteries inside this product are very clearly cheaply made and if subjected to the same burst "dead shorts", they would definitely not survive.The traces on the PCB for ANY of the rails are nowhere near large enough. Am I wrong here: 12v 10A load on a pcb would require .1 inch wide traces amiright? Nowhere on the board are there any.The 8 gauge wires that supply the LiPo load to the vehicle are also only rated for about 200Acontinuous drawfor the length,with a 5% drop.The relays that are used to click the load from the batteries to the main relay are rated for 100A continuous load each, and there's only 2 of them. The 3rd relay inside is unknown, but considerably beefier, perhaps rated for much higher loads.My subject question is basically this: Couldsomeonenot mepursue legal action against a company that creates a dangerous device like this? Just because someone hasn't been injured yet by it, does that make it better? The potential for this thing to cause harm should be enough, especially if used as directed clearly in the instruction manual!?Compare it to this: Handing a REAL handgun to a person disguised as a TOY and telling that person to point it at his or her head and pull the trigger. Just because the trigger just happened at that one moment to not work, does that NOT make it attempted murder?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:19:51 am
content: -Pursue legal action to a product that could potentially harm you severely? -You will need to show damage to file a suit.A product that could potentially harm you is a product that has not harmed you.So fat chance if you can even find a competent lawyer to represent you.

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:24:53 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 14, 2016, 02:19:51 amThat's really sad. I guess illgive it to an enemy of mineand fix why it does not work, let him light himself on fire and destroy the vehicle he is working on and request a percentage of the millions in return.#ItsAJoke

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 05:53:23 am
content: If you are really concerned, pass a report on to the Consumer Products Safety Commission. They seem very good at worrying about dangers. The last I heard they wanted to ban blinds and drapes which have cords on them because it is possible for a child to hang themselves on the cord. You might also check to see if they have any of the safety labs markings on the device. If so, report to the labs. They don't like having their mark used in vain.

author: Grayfox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:43:32 am
content: If it has a design defect you can lodge a recall notice on recalls.gov.au or what ever your local one is website under the "unsafe product"I heard they may ban those "hoverboards" as they caught fire and burnt down someone's home, and with stories in the US of these things catching fire as well.Personally I don't think any of those Li-ion jump starts are really safe.If the batteries can handle 250A of current draw, How long will they last if your car battery is on its way out or your car has a parasitic draw issue and you need to use it often?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:24:25 am
content: Quote from: kingoftaurus on January 14, 2016, 02:24:53 amThen you could be charged with manslaughter or murder and the company and the enemies family could also sue you as well and instead they would all likely succeed. See how the law works now, it's not the system.There is already probably plenty of federal and state laws that will pull the product off the shelf you just need to alert them to the problem.You being the electronics specialist your inaction could have already lead to a death or injury that could have prevented earlier if instead of messing around waiting to do a "review" of the tool, you notified authorities immediately. That is if the tool is unsafe as you claim.So instead of trying to spin a buck how about you get on with it and call the company involved?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:40:17 am
content: Your assessment of this product seems to be based on the 'ratings' of various components.It would do no harm to go into more detail about where these figures come from, what criteria were used to calculate them, and whether they apply to continuous operation or just the time it would take to start an engine, ie. just a few seconds.For example: you say "The 8 gauge wires that supply the LiPo load to the vehicle are also only rated for about 200A for the length."Does that mean they instantly fail at 201A? Of course not. There will be some voltage drop and some power dissipation per unit length, and if in this application it's acceptable to have greater values for those losses than whatever figures were used to assign a "rating", then they may be perfectly fine. Without actual testing, or at the very least, sight of the criteria and test results that were used to assign that 200A figure, all you have is a basis for concern, not evidence of wrongdoing.

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:42:15 am
content: Quote from: Shock on January 14, 2016, 07:24:25 amThat was a joke. Sure I did not indicate it better.I did however, notify in email, phone and by posting a review of the product on their page outlining the safety failures.What I do not like is their complete lack of communication towards me and towards other potential buyers of the product. It has been over 48 hours. The tool distributor and I are friends. He has notified me that there has been no communication between him and his supplier about the product and has continued to sell them despite my warning. He does trust in my opinion, but he, like the company in question here, are trying to make a buck.This is where criminal negligence comes in and something further needs to be done about it. The creator of the device needs to learn that such disregard for human safety is completely unacceptable.You are right, if I knowingly gave this to someone and let them use it, I am the "bad guy". But I did not, I won't, but it seems with the legal system, something has to happen first in order for action to take place. Does that sound fair and just? Someone literally has to DIE or get INJURED in order for action to take place.I came here for advice and I thank the other posters for giving me relevant information.

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:49:04 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on January 14, 2016, 07:40:17 amSure of course they will not fail instantly, but very close to instantly. I had previously purchased a very similar product with the same gauge wire, but far shorter. By the time I had connected the device to the battery of the vehicle, sat in the car and attempted to start the car, and manage to get back to the jump starter, the wire had melted the coating off and dead shorted to the frame of the vehicle. The jump pack had expanded to twice it's previous dimensions before I was capable of whacking it off with a spanner.I did that knowing the danger of using the device in the first place. I moved quickly and with purpose, and it still nearly exploded on me due to the failure of the wire in just a short amount of time, maybe 20 seconds or so.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:02:42 am
content: Quote from: kingoftaurus on January 14, 2016, 07:42:15 amRisk of serious injury or death, why not call them and speak to their technical support? Email is a good way of noone taking notice.You should be careful what you joke about, you would make a nice defamation win for them if you could make it worth their while (however, unlikely and even more so if you're correct).BTW if you were serious about your handgun analogy, that is also flawed, I'll let you work out why.

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:15:26 am
content: Quote from: Shock on January 14, 2016, 08:02:42 amThat's the problem with analogies isn't it? They are never perfect because they are not the same. Apples to oranges.But it's MORE like designing a laptop computer that with normal usage, on your lap, and without manufacturers warning you *will* be either burned, or have your house catch fire... but that didn't happen already... or wait...That's the problem. If someone had just taken the time to at least post a warning label that just stated "use of this product is extremely unsafe and precautions should be taken for when catastrophic failure with normal usage occurs".or "If you smell burning while using this product, run"I have, since the beginning of this thread, notified everyone possible.I edited the original post for clarity on things that have been discussed in the following posts -

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:33:15 am
content: Quote from: kingoftaurus on January 14, 2016, 07:49:04 amI'm not sure I believe this. A cable that's actually capable of carrying 200A with a moderate, safe amount of self-heating will not fail suddenly at 400A. It's unlikely that it will fail *at all* at 400A.On the other hand, a cable that's capable of carrying 50A, but which has been arbitrarily "rated" at 200A by a dishonest or incompetent manufacturer trying to save money on copper, probably will fail at 400A.Either way, any "rating" is just a guideline, with important information about the criteria that were used to come up with it being frequently omitted.QuoteSounds as thoughthatproduct was definitely a dangerous piece of crap, no question.QuotePost of the year, right there

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:40:50 am
content: As others have mentioned, notifying your equivalent of Trading Standards etc would be a better option than suing.But personally, I think you should test it (whilst taking safety precautions) and post the results here. That way, if there is any catastrophic failure, it will be there for us all to see.

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:50:08 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on January 14, 2016, 08:33:15 am

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:52:19 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on January 14, 2016, 08:40:50 amI wish I could. I will be sending the product back for a refund (AFTER I COMPLETELY DISARM IT). I will take high resolution pictures and post them whenever I can remember how to post pictures here in the forum to begin with. I tried in my original post, but for some reason it kept failing.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:52:39 am
content: Yeah, sue them! That is how you solve problems, lawyers and more guns!

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:58:32 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 14, 2016, 08:52:39 amWhat elseare you to do when they just literallydo not care?They made a dangerous device, sold it knowing it's dangerous and intend "so far" to do nothing about it.Just watch people use it and get maimed or killed?What would YOU do? Mr. Smart a**

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:14:48 am
content: I did this after a product almost killed me:

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:16:44 am
content: Should we play the video?

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:45:01 am
content: Quote from: kingoftaurus on January 14, 2016, 02:10:50 amOk, I've done that (by mistake) a few times, and I'm still here. Nothing exploded, my house didn't catch fire, nor did the sky fall.While I'm acutely aware of the dangers of Lithium-based batteries, you're basing your panic on heresay and deductions based on an incomplete facts.So, here's what happens if you dead-short a 3S 5000mAh ROAR approved RC battery-pack:There's a bright flash and a "pop" from inside the pack, then nothing. No smoke, no heat, and no fire. The flash and pop is completely contained inside the pack.But, "how come?", you might think. LiPo batteries are supposed to burn down your house..Thing is, while 1250A @ ~11V (~14KW) might sound like a lot, that nothing compared to what they'll push during a dead short. It's probably a factor of 10 higher. The 50C rating is what they can push at peak (about 10 seconds) without any damage to the battery. They're capable of way more.So, what happens when you push 140KW through a thin copper sheet (what connects the cells to the outside terminals) ? It _disappears_.It acts as a fuse..In fact, the ability to safely handle a dead short is part of the ROAR approval process for batteries. As is how they deal with punctures, bending, overcharging, swelling, etc.Now, please note that I'm only disputing the alleged lack of safety of RC batteries here in the scenario you described. While traces might act as fuses as well, I can't really be bothered to do the math on that right now.Of course, there's no way this product would actually perform the same as a proper booster-pack, but I'm quite certain that the LiPo wouldn't _explode_ or even catch fire.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 10:28:21 am
content: Quote from: kingoftaurus on January 14, 2016, 08:58:32 amYou allegedly claim, that an unnamed product can kill people, call me names, and use the functions of the forum for a rant. Chill out. First, maybe they overspecced the product. You dont know, whether or not it is capable of the spec. We dont know, because we only have your description.I've seen Mike herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/pocket-sized-12v-300a-battery-pack/questioning such product feasibility, year later, he jumpstarted a car with a Makita battery packhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/starting-a-truck-with-a-makita-drill-battery-(and-a-glossy-official-video)/So chill out, and test the actual product. It might just work.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:29:20 am
content: The talk about lithium ion batteries exploding from short circuits is nonsense. I have a pair of batteries (18650s) from a Tesla Model S P85, a battery nominally rated at 320kW/400V (100%SOC) with each cell rated to 12A peak.Guess what, I can short them together continuously and they don't explode. They get pretty hot pretty quickly (and there's a lot of smoke from the contact area evaporating), but there's no explosion even after 10 seconds.I'm pretty sure three or four of these could jump start my diesel car with no ill effects.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:33:16 am
content: "That's really sad."What do you think it should be? Throwing people onto jail just because their potentials to commit crimes, not the actual crimes them may have committed?Guess what, each and everyone of us have the potential to be criminals. Does that mean we should throw you in jail too?" I guess ill give it to an enemy of mine and fix why it does not work, let him light himself on fire and destroy the vehicle he is working on and request a percentage of the millions in..."If you do that, I am sure you will be pinched.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:59:51 am
content: "What would YOU do? Mr. Smart a**"That's totally uncalled for.You seem to have a very high opinion of your ability to assess product quality, detect fraud and predict the future. And I'm sure you are well qualified on them all.Still, it pays to be humble. Because if you don't know what you don't know, you often end up making a fool of yourself.

author: kingoftaurus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:50:17 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 14, 2016, 11:59:51 amThank you for the constructive feedback.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:52:19 pm
content: QuoteLike it or not, a party (or the state) must have 'standing' to bring forth a suit. There must be a real actual victim. It is one of many fundamental concepts of our legal system, most likely to cut down on time and work for the judicial system. The wheels of justice turn slowly enough without a lot of claims from people not directly effected by an action or product.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 05:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on January 14, 2016, 04:52:19 pmSome exceptions apply. It is illegal to drink drive or speed, yet you may not injure anyone doing those actions, you are simply increasing the risk.However I do believe it is not possible to sue someone over potential losses. So you cannot bring a civil suit to a court if you speculate on possible harm. Actual harm must be shown.

author: MikeW
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:42:02 pm
content: I'm thinking it would come more under negligence laws.Until someone actually gets hurt the best you can do is convince the people selling it in your country that it is dangerous and hope they pull it in fear of getting sued after the fact.

author: donmr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on January 14, 2016, 07:40:17 amIn fact these small wires may act as current limiting resistors and prevent the batteries from exploding.That would make it a deceptive/defective product which cannot perform its intended function, but not dangerous.Of course if they get too hot...I agree that such products should be brought to the attention of the regulatory agencies like the CPSC here in the US.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:50:00 pm
content: Each year, there is an estimated average of60 electrocutionsassociated with consumer products. The three most common product categories associated with electrocutions are small appliance, power tool, and lighting equipment.Every year in the U.S., more than 2,600 people are killed in home fires.32,675 people killed in car accidents. (2014)...Looking at this forum it sounds like whole human population is about to go extinct due to electrocutions whenreality is completely opposite.Total 170 deaths in industry, and only 6% of that (~10 ) industries outside construction/mining etc. Your chances of being electrocuted are far less than winning a lottery.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:02:41 pm
content: So what have you done to actually prove it's dangerous, rather than just expressing some opinions based on untested assumptions?Have you actually measured the output current?If it hurts or damages you or your property then you can sue. Otherwise it's down to the enforcement authorities of the countries it's imported into.Speaking of dangerous things, how about this one...http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391288917634Looks similar to this delight , but aimed at babies not coffee....

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on January 14, 2016, 07:50:00 pmSince this thread is about a 12V jump starter, there's no risk of electrocution, just fire.The original poster should report their findings to the organisation responsible for safety.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 07:42:04 am
content: QuoteAn emergency jumpstarter does not necessarily have to output enough current to start a car to be useful. There's presumably a pretty decent battery in the car, already, or else you wouldn't STILL be using a jumpstarter; you would have replaced the battery.I have jumped my car with20AWG24AWG (I still have the roll) wires. And no, I didn't even double them up. Hooked them up, made sure the wires weren't cooking, and then waited for the battery to take enough charge from the running vehicle to start itself. If the wires don't get dangerously hot in the first minute or two of charging, the current will just drop off from there.