Battery options for test meters (Brymen) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: monkey_magic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 11:41:05 pm
content: I know this topic has been discussed before, and I've watched Dave's experiments on leaky alkalines with interest - but I was just wondering what the collective was using thesedays for batteries in their meters?I've got a Brymen 257s DMM and 079 Clamp meter - both take AAA and currently using Alkaline, but they can sit for long periods unused and I'm dreading the day I find they have leaked.Swapping the cells in and out every time you go to use it gets old after the first few times. It seems that all the brands are probably equally bad for leaking with the only certainty being when it happens it will obviously be in the most expensive item you have.I've tried Eneloops, which seem to work OK for the 257s despite the specification of a min of 2.5V. Unfortunately the clamp meter requires a minimum of 2.85V for Capacitance and Frequency and displays low battery.I was considering Lithium, but I have read posts on here that they need to be discharged slightly otherwise the meter displays an error. A few people seem to have had issues with one cell randomly dying as well.I've seen at least one recommendation for using zinc-carbon, but I was under the impression they were just as-leaky as alkaline, especially given their construction.Assuming making a reliable leak free battery is simply beyond our current technology (although strangely didn’t seem to be 30 years ago)I was curious as to what others were using and their experiences? – or even if anybody was all that bothered at all. Am I just being paranoid?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 11:53:02 pm
content: The overall quality of alkaline batteries eroded severely in the past two decades - my guess is that it is quite deliberate.I point to some of my experiences in the link below:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/disaster!/msg3449330/#msg3449330I currently use Panasonic and Maxell without problems - although I know from others this is just a matter of time I will have trouble.Lithium Energizers are 100% used in very expensive multimeters and other sensitive equipment - I lost too many good vintage and expensive stuff to risk them.I also tend to avoid the ones that promote the maximum amount of energy packed (the ones with "max" or "ultra" or whatever marketing foolery in their names) as they might carry more punch they can handle safely inside their housing.Ah, and Duracells go to the trash as soon as they arrive.

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 12:12:08 am
content: Quote from: monkey_magic on November 08, 2022, 11:41:05 pmYou are not paranoid. I am personally extremely fed up of finding leaking Energizer and Duracell alkaline batteries in my devices.I simply stopped buying them. I now use Lithium Energizers and Eneloops.It seems that Brymen 257 does not like the higher voltage of the Lithium Energizers, but my BM319 accepts Lithium Energizers without any issues.An alternative is to open up all you devices often, to check the batteries. Often is every months.:-)

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 06:14:58 am
content: Ni-Zn rechargeable.

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 08:25:29 am
content: Excuse my ignorance but what is the issue with the batteries? It's the first time I hear this. I got a brymen 869s a few months ago and I use it occasionally. Should I worry about leakage?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 08:58:20 am
content: LSD NiMH like eneloop or IKEA LADDA. If there is battery level indicator, you may not get full level indication on freshly charged batteries but otherwise there are no problems in 99% of equipment. Yes they start at lower voltage than alkalines but have much flatter discharge curve and are considered empty at about the same voltage. Ni-Zn are unreliable, have high self discharge and may damage some equipment due to too high voltage. Do not forget that 1.2V for NiMH and 1,6V for NiZn is nominal voltage, not fully charged voltage which is significantly higher. While 1.5V is a nominal voltage of a fresh alkaline (may be up to 1.55-1.6V).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 09:00:55 am
content: Quote from: pope on November 09, 2022, 08:25:29 amThey leak.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1508-we-finally-got-alkaline-battery-leakage!/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 09:03:24 am
content: Quote from: pope on November 09, 2022, 08:25:29 amYes, for example I had alkalines leaking in my Agilent U1272A twice. After second leak I got rid of alkalines in all of my equipment and now use mostly IKEA LADDA instead, which are Japanese eneloops in disguise. First leak totaly destroyed half of the battery contacts and I needed to order a whole back cover. Money I paid for it would buy me like 30 rechargeables I'm now using. Not to say all of the time wasted.

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 09:36:07 am
content: Thank you. I'll look into it. So, the IKEA LADDA are suitable for the brymen 869s?EDIT: Just saw that the 869s needs pp3 9V battery. Any recommendations?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 09:58:22 am
content: Znter Li-ion. I use them in all my PP3 meters, they last well. Other brands are available.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 11:50:55 am
content: Quote from: pope on November 09, 2022, 09:36:07 amDespite 9V batteries can leak as well, they have much less risk of leakage as they have more shielding around them (the external housing is an extra layer of protection.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 12:05:01 pm
content: Quote from: monkey_magic on November 08, 2022, 11:41:05 pmWhere did you get 2.5V figure? Specification says it displays low battery <2.3V, which is OK for NiMH as voltage drops below 1.2V only after >80% of the capacity was spent.EDIT: I guess you took it from BM079 spec which has 2.5V and 2.85V (capacitance and frequency) low battery spec. WTF Brymen was thinking? 2.85V low battery is a broken design not suitable for alkaline batteries. OK-ish for lithium primary cells which cost about the same as NiMH but are single use.QuoteThat's just stupid. It's 1.425V per cell, which means alkaline batteries will be out of spec after 5-10% discharge from full capacity.

author: multiJ
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 12:41:03 pm
content: Also some good info on multimeter batteries in this threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/which-multimeter-should-i-get/msg4493059/#msg4493059

author: monkey_magic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 01:26:51 pm
content: Well it is good to know it is not just me that worries about such things!Thanks for all the replies.For those using Lithium Energizers, have you encountered any of these supposed issues of cells suddenly dying?I've seen the rumour on several forums now, so I'm unsure if there is anything to it. For me they work out about the same price as the eneloops, so pretty pricey option for a disposable cell, especially if you don't actually get to use it.Showing my ignorance here, but I'd never heard of Ni-Zn - sounds like they could have been the ideal solution, but on further research it does seem like they can be quite fragile.I believe the IKEA LADDA are either the Eneloop Pro or Lite - for me they work out the same price as the original white eneloops, so I just buy them instead.The 2.5 and 2.85v figures are taken from the Brymen spec sheet. I haven't tested the threshold at which the low battery warning comes on, so I have just assumed the figure they quoted is correct.However, the 257s didn't show any low battery running on two eneloop cells @ ~1.28V so that may be the best option for it.The 079 did show low battery warning with Capacitance and Frequency modes on the same eneloop cells, so I assume it does actually need >2.85V

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 01:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: monkey_magic on November 09, 2022, 01:26:51 pmBecause it has 2.3V low battery spec in the datasheet (1.15V per cell), not 2.5V.http://www.brymen.com/images/ProductsList/BM250s_List/BM250s_Catalog.pdf

author: TopQuark
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 01:52:16 pm
content: I realise the OP was asking about AAA batteries, but for my Brymen 869s and Fluke 87V, I exclusively use these rechargeable 9v batteries, which are basically 2 LiPo packs in series, packaged with balanced charging and protection.- They don't leak (they might explode, but that's another story)- They don't have any voltage regulation (no smps noise, battery charge indication works)- They are protected against shorts and over discharge (I've tested it)- They can be recharged through USB, which is available anywhere these days- They offer great energy density, the multimeter simply works longerI like these batteries so much, I use them everywhere, not just multimeters, but for any circuit that needs a clean safe rechargeable floating power supply.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 02:01:36 pm
content: How about the BM786? It uses 3-AAA cells and turns on a low battery warning at ~3.7V. Ni-MH cells don't last long before the low battery warning comes on.Do these multi-hundred dollar meters not have some sort of regulation on them? Would Lithiums really be that big of a threat?It seems I'm either recharging Ni-MH cells every few weeks or taking the risk of destroying my meter by having alkalines leak in it. You'd think these geniuses that design these things would either choose Ni-MH, 1.5V Lithium or an easy to find Lithium rechargeable battery pack like a D-90. Are they just plain stupid?I think I'll resort to modifying my BM786 and put a diode in the circuit so I can use the Lithiums safely. This is just madness.

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 02:33:25 pm
content: My main calculator, TI-85, runs on 4 AAA cells and it won't work on NiMh Eneloops, so I've had store brand alkalines in it. I've got in the habitof checking for leaks on a monthly basis. Well, yesterday I saw a tiny amount of the crusty white build up around the neg. end of one of the cells, so they went in the trash.I found some LiPo AAAs advertised as 1.5 Volt, so I've got them on order. Hopefully their fully charged voltage is not as high as the single use lithiums, (1.65V).

author: monkey_magic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 04:10:22 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 09, 2022, 01:31:33 pmSorry I must have misread that - you are quite correct 2.3V min on the 257s, it is the 079 that has the minimum of 2.5V for "other functions" and 2.85V for Capacitance and Frequency.I was also just looking at another of their meters which has a 2.6V minimum, so it does seem to very much depend on the series.I think i read on here Dave stated that the maximum voltage for the 235 is 3.6V – not sure if that applies to all of them.It has to be said it isn’t the most convenient operating window for battery choices. I know it is a minor complaint but it is a shame as I really do like my Brymen meters.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 04:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: monkey_magic on November 09, 2022, 04:10:22 pmIt's not a minor complaint. It's so bad it should have never left R&D and go into production. What's the point of functionality which requires that alkaline battery charge must be above 90% full. 2.5V spec is a total garbage too as it makes you toss alkalines which are 50% full. I actually have BM037 for some time and it has the same battery voltage spec. But have never before looked at this spec as I have barely used it and almost entirely on a clamp meter functionality in times of occasional need. I installed LADDA and did not see an issue as did not switch to capacitance/frequency and batteries were still at almost full charge. Now I'm mad at Brymen. They should effing use 3 batteries instead of 2 in their design, not make ridiculous spec. Even if using low power LDO to reduce the voltage to 3V, you would need to buy lower amount of batteries long term since you would use their full capacity. IMHO if EU busybodies were aware of this shit, they would ban it for sale because it's "not green" and makes you throw out batteries which are still good.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 04:44:08 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 09, 2022, 08:58:20 amQuote from: monkey_magic on November 09, 2022, 01:26:51 pmI use Ni-Zn in my Fluke 289 with no problems. Fresh primaries can be as high as 1.65V/cell open circuit, Ni-Zn as high as 1.85V/cell. With a multimeter like the 289 which has a constant drain to maintain the RTC, this probably drops off quite quickly, other meters may vary. Been using them in it for over a year, had to charge them twice, no failures so far.I would say, first try Ni-MH LSD, and if you get low battery warnings far too soon, try Ni-Zn. It's not a massive investment to buy two or three. I use Turnigy brand, as ever, other brands are available. The main inconvenience for me is the dearth of chargers for this chemistry; I just use a bench psu but ofc this might not be available to everyone.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 05:05:35 pm
content: Quote from: monkey_magic on November 08, 2022, 11:41:05 pmI think modern zinc chloride cells are less likely to leak. Reasons:- they have a very dry internal formulation- they do not generate internal pressure- they have a sealed steel shell on the outside- I have samples of ZnCl cells that are over 20 years old which still work and have not leakedThe main downside of zinc chloride is the much lower capacity, so they are only suitable for low drain devices.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 05:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on November 09, 2022, 12:12:08 amIndeed.I just recently pulled a Duracell from a valuable item that was just starting to leak. It was still at 1.3 V and working fine. Apparently I caught it just in time.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 05:53:19 pm
content: I tried lithium AAA batteries in my BM786.A full set of fresh alkalines measures at 4.85V and a full set of fresh lithiums measures at 5.4V. That's only 11% more so I went ahead a tried them No complaints from the meter. That will be my solution going forwardI also investigated and found a reversible mod that can easily be done to the battery holder for anyone that is leery about using the lithiums due to voltage concerns. It involves adding a small diode (1N60 will drop the voltage about .3V or a 1N4148 would drop it about .65V) and can be undone as easily as it can be done. There is a thin plastic label/sheet onto the bottom of the battery holder. Removing this reveals connection running from one side to the other. It incorporates two of the battery contacts and is easily removed. Solder to the middle section of this the diode (in the correct orientation of course) then cut maybe 1mm out of it between where the diode leads attach. The replace it into the holder. Reversal is just as simple. Remove the contact assembly, solder a short wire across the gap, then remove the diode and reassemble.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 06:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on November 09, 2022, 06:14:58 amThese are not only expensive but the voltage on them when fully charged is the same or higher than the Energizer litiums. Plus, they have a fairly high self-discharge rate so if you are not using your meter often they can be useless when you do and require a re-charge before proceeding. Add to that if they get too low for too long you can throw them out.Nice thing about lithiums is the 20 year shelf life. Even if you don't use your meter for a year or 2 it will likely still work fine.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 06:24:45 pm
content: Another problem with Ni-Zn is that they require a special charger. Also they have capacity rates in mWh, not mAh, and there is a good reason for that, their capacity is rather low and it's a way how make it appear larger.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 08:04:57 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 02, 2022, 06:11:06 pmUse whatever suits youI use Turnigy brand ones from HobbyKing, they are not particularly expensive, and they last months between charges in my Fluke 289, which is my daily driver at home.Quote from: wraper on December 02, 2022, 06:24:45 pmThey probably use mWh for people that are either too lazy or too stupid to do the maths. The 1500mAh ones I use have only 20% lower mWh capacity than the 2550mAh LSD Ni-MH AAs that I also use.It's a fair point about the chargers; I've not found one I like yet, and I've been looking a while, so I just use a bench psu.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 04:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 03, 2022, 08:04:57 amTo make use of that mWh capacity switch mode converter is needed. Otherwise it will be wasted, since device will not cunsume less current at higher voltage, and it will be only 58% of usable capacity of NiMH with example above (given that device can use full capacity of NiMH).

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 05:33:35 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 03, 2022, 04:59:16 pmThat depends on the device. If it uses linear or no regulation, then yes. If it uses a switcher, then no. Again, I get months of daily use in a Fluke 289, I can't see how that is "poor capacity".