Hidden survailance cameras - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 08:15:05 am
content: So I've done a bit of "consulting" and electronics work for a small family business, I life next to. Their hallway is a short cut for people on the way to the bus. Lately a few thinks in this hallway went missing or were "decorated". Now they asked me to find and install two or three hidden security cameras for them. The offers they got from local security companies were ridiculously overpriced seeing that they don't need anything fancy. It's not that big of a problem to justify a whole security system and they actually don't mind people taking their hallway as a shortcut. The budget is € 500 - 1000.I don't know the first thing about security cameras. If any of you have experience with security cameras I'd be thankful. They need something that can be installed, configured and hidden easily (by yours truly), works in low light and isn't too expensive. Their WLAN extends to the hallway and there are plenty of light fixtures that could power the cameras.What I'm looking for is the typical "traps for young players" sort of thing. Also I want to avoid building the electronics myself. An off the shelve solution is preferable to me. The business owner is not very well versed in electronics and computer stuff, so it should be easily manageable by himself and his wife. He will rarely if ever look at a live-feed and only look at recordings when something happened.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 08:35:02 am
content: Number 1 rule for security cameras is placement. placement. placement.They need to be in a location that gives a nice face shot of the person stealing things while also showing them actually stealing it.It's no good just getting their face if you don't also get proof that they did or took something.Number 2 rule for security camerasYou can't see shit with standard definition video. If the goal is to identify people faces at distance you need HD.eg, SD is useless for monitoring an entire room, all you get a smearing of pixels for their face.That's not to say SD is bad, it's good for close up shots (1-2 meters), or if your only interested in what people are doing rather than who they are.I've used the small sony Effio-V board camera and they're really good for the pricehttp://www.surveilzone.com/sony-960h-ccd-effio-v-800tvl-ultra-wdr-camera-cc1526Number 3 rule for security cameras:Don't cheap out on the recording system. The cheap ones tend to crash after they've been running for a while.You need a recorder that is rock stable and can be left running for weeks.

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 11:23:16 am
content: Also, use an auto iris lens to compensate for changes in ambient lighting conditions. Definately worth it.A polaroid filter helps if you have a large smooth flat reflecting surface in the field of view.

author: nihilism
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 11:36:12 am
content: Megapixel IP cameras are the way to go these days. If you want something affordable but reasonable quality, i'd be looking at HikVision. Search on ebay or aliexpress.

author: geppa.dee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 11:38:26 am
content: Sorry for slightly OT, this hits not the technical but the legal aspect of your question.Here in Spain (and I presume things are relatively similar in other EU countries), the "hidden surveillance" is a big legal NO NOif you are a private business.Hiding the actual camera,I believe, you are allowed but apart from that you have to be registered with the Spanish Data Protection Agency, stating what you're recording and storing, what you'll do with the data, how are yousecurelyprotecting it and so on. A formality, but it costs some money and ensures you're liable if anything bad happens. I have an online store and I had to pass through this registration process for the personal data that I collect for order fulfillment purposes.Also, for video surveillance, a standardized poster, likethishas to be placed in a visible place. It contains the administrative identification of the business as well as a way to contact them for deletion of said data. You also have to ensure that your cameras are only recording your private areas (I believe incidental recording of public space is OK but not sure). You can't have your cameras incidentally recording someone elses private property (like having it mounted high on a wall and looking over a fence).All this, like I said at the beginning, has little to do with the technical side but if ignored, can have devastating consequences for a small business.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 12:02:47 pm
content: Just hanging some camera's on the wall does not help much. (your camera's wil eventually be wrecked or stolen)What does help is some expensive looking signs, along with some inexpensive (but professional looking) dummy camera's.The reason this works wel, is because when the warning signs (like stickers) are cheap, the camera's will probably be considered to be cheap and have useless images.If the owner of the property has invested in expensive signs, the camera's wil most likely capture high quality images.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 12:14:08 pm
content: Thank you guys very much for the replies. Keep the good stuff going!@Psi: Rule 1 and 2 are the sort of traps I was looking out for. Now I'm definitely going to place a camera right at the entrance, under shoulder height, just to catch peoples faces.Quote from: geppa.dee on August 18, 2014, 11:38:26 amLuckily that's nothing I have to deal with, but that was my first question, too. He will check with his lawyer about the legality. Despite not being locked, there are doors on both entrances of the hallway. And both doors have a clear sign "private property - do not enter" on them. Basically everyone in there is trespassing. It's not even the shop and customer part of the property. I can't imagine hidden cameras being illegal in there - at least not in Austria. But as I said, he will ask his lawyer.Quote from: nihilism on August 18, 2014, 11:36:12 amThis is the sort of thing I was looking for. WLAN connectivity and browser configuration would be a big plus though.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 12:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on August 18, 2014, 12:14:08 pmThen check out the raspberry pi camera. Or if you can live without the wifi, the mobius actioncam can record HD in a loop up to 32GB and has motion detection and autoiris and etc. and is cheap and has great image quality and can work from the built-in (rechargeable) battery for an hour or so.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 03:08:13 pm
content: Raspberry Pi with camera module. Easy enough to add a USB hard disk. (I have one in myweather camera)Low light could be an issue though.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 04:05:51 pm
content: Thanks guys but the camera should be able to stream video elsewhere, where it can be recorded. So the moebius action cam is pretty much ruled out, USB is not known for its encryption nor for its long transfer range.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 05:35:28 pm
content: Check out DropCam. High-rez, with audio, wireless (WiFi), remote viewing, online recording/storage/review. Remarkably inexpensive vs. commercial systems.https://www.dropcam.com/

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 05:58:02 pm
content: Dropcam looks like the perfect solution. Everything I want! But it doesn't seem to be available outside of the US.

author: kingofkya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 06:10:10 pm
content: Over kill, buthttp://www.zoneminder.com/Also sd camera can be just fine for face reconision provided you have proper lenses , quality equipment and placement.Manny ip cameras can just upload to ftp server so you could just have filezila or some other ftp software installed on your clients pc.The ZM wiki is a pretty good place to start searching for good ip cam.http://www.zoneminder.com/wiki/index.php/Hardware_Compatibility_List#Network_Cameras

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 06:19:30 pm
content: The Raspberry Pi camera has a pretty narrow field of view, only 45 degrees, I think. If you can make it work, though, it's an excellent solution. Given that the RPi is a networkable computer, it can store the video it captures anywhere else that is networkable, and it can use openCV to only record video when there is motion or a recognizable face, or you can add sensors that trigger video recording, etc. It's a remarkably functional solution, and for the price it is OUTSTANDING.What is lacking in that system, though, is all the gluey bits that make it a system rather than a set of components with some potential.If you're (or you know) someone with the know-how, the RPi would make an excellent solution.Another thing often forgotten in security cameras is lighting. The light has to be sufficient for the camera to capture the details you are wanting to capture.Hell, even just adding a lot of light to the hallway will likely prevent 90% of the unwanted activities, besides making the video easier to view later.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 06:51:05 pm
content: Putting the camera in a place that it can't be damaged is always a problem. Not only the camera but the wires running to them. Things to keep in mind.- A standard 4 channel recorder box is cheap and easy, many can stream video over the web but that can be difficult to rig and requires a good connection. Motion detection with email notification is also included with most systems but that is more annoying than anything. It's easy to allow viewing to other users pcs on the same router. Most systems are Windows and Android only.- Showing that the area is being recorded is good. A useful system in an area that is unattended is to install a couple cameras in the walls (hidden) and a couple more camera (fake or working) that can be sacrificed. Also a display that allows persons passing by to see that they are on camera. In this case your hidden cameras need to mimic the placement of the other camera.- If you have other cameras that can be used elsewhere, encourage the shop owner to place a monitor in a back room, even the bathroom and show an image of the inside of the shop. They will get daily use from this if running the show alone and it will encourage them to check it for failures.- You can hide a small camera inside of a decoy camera. Mount a decoy then break it, leave wires hanging perhaps a part of an old pcb, mount a small bullet cam inside the carcass, drill a hole through the side and use that as the peep hole. It's a great way to hide a camera.- Lighting is critical, if possible a couple ir lights, or just proper general lighting will do.- I'd have no problem hiding a camera when also mounting decoy cameras and signs.

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2014, 11:29:39 pm
content: Lots of useful tips and tricks hereOne question though, Is it not possible just to lock the doors ?. (certainly going to be cheap and simple).Otherwise maybe as suggested, just lots of bright light, some good signs and professional looking dummy cameras might be all the deterrent that's needed.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2014, 02:15:50 am
content: Remember -Serious crooks will RF jam WLAN cameras.Power security/integrity is important: Pull the plug = pull the camera.If cameras are visible - they should in some way 'protect' each other - so that if a feral thinks he can disable camera 1 from behind to gain access to the good stuff- he should be visible on camera 2 (and vice versa). Cameras on trains & buses are placed this way.Record elsewhere - not to SD card in the camera! No camera = no footage!!Also depending on the availablke lighting and sensor technology - keep in mind the mains frequency to avoid flicker and 'hum bars' in the image.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 11:31:32 am
content: Quote from: con-f-use on August 18, 2014, 08:15:05 amQuote from: con-f-use on August 18, 2014, 08:15:05 amHow dare you say that they are overpriced if you are even not a beginner?Quote from: con-f-use on August 18, 2014, 08:15:05 amQuote from: con-f-use on August 18, 2014, 08:15:05 amSo you want an off the shelf self-configuring system that withstands manipulation of a group of technical noobs?You need to install the most fancy system to do that.Quote from: con-f-use on August 18, 2014, 08:15:05 amAnd when he discovers 14 days later that something happened, he will only want to see the video of 14 days ago, and only wanting a clear image when it happened at night, and only want a system that isn't crashed a week ago, and only wants a Wlan network that is working. He also only wants a camera that still gives images when someone plays around with a pocket light.Time to make a full detailed list of what he wants, with numbers.Attention: What's not on the list, is not wanted. Like a self-restarting camera after network trouble, like a recording system that sends an alarm email when it doesn't get new images, like a battery powered recording system,...

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2014, 12:21:10 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on August 21, 2014, 11:31:32 amNo need to get aggravated.I know it was overpriced, because almost everything in Austria is. Besides, I looked at the prices for just the hardware (not including their wage, mind you) and saw that they probably bought it at 25% of its price. Finally, a friend of his in Germany came out at much less than what they estimated for a similar thing and is satisfied.Luckily you don't have to be Caesar to understand Caesar.He will know when something happens the next day, at the latest, and look at the recordings. The incident rate is about 3 times a year and mostly just minor vandalism. So its annoying but nothing he loses much money over or would justify taking much effort. I don't worry much about people jamming the WLAN or cutting the power, not even playing with a flashlight. Its mostly just dumb kits who don't have anything better to do. Smearing on the walls, stabbed bike tires, a stolen bike. This sort of thing. The cameras should be hidden because otherwise they'd be damaged too. I will be putting up obvious decoys as well as the hidden cameras.As for what he wants. Most of the requirements are flexible. I already said something like dropcam would be perfect.Hard requirements:- Two or three cameras for a narrow hallway for under 1000 €- Recording onto something remote (ftp, a computer in the local network, cloud, etc.)- Easy to use- Easy to hide (e.g. in box of less than 20x20cm that's already wall mounted and has a cable duct)- Reliable as in reconnecting on lost connection and rebooting on power loss (though that will rarely happen)Soft requirements:- Easy to install (I can setup a raspberry pi as a web server and have it send notificatons or do similar stuff if necessary but that's additional work and cost)- Low light capable (I could install motion activated lights, but see above)- WLAN capable (I can install ethernet cables, but see above)As I like Linux and know my way around it I'm currently looking into zone minder and IP cameras that work with it.Its not rocket science. I've found tons of WLAN-IP-Cameras. I'd just really like to know which of them is the least pain in the rear to use. I figured some of you might be able to help me and most of you did. Thanks.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2014, 11:07:35 am
content: Quote from: con-f-use on August 21, 2014, 12:21:10 pmSorry, that was a side effect of the way I saw a huge gap between the-user-only-wants and the way to technically archieve this.You are right about the huge price difference, and for 1000 euro for 3 cameras you have a product that really can make the videos that are used in their commercial.Quote from: con-f-use on August 21, 2014, 12:21:10 pmQuote from: con-f-use on August 21, 2014, 12:21:10 pmThese two not-requirements make it a right decision to not go to a professional security company, and buy a camera on Ebay/Amazon/aliexpress/...Quote from: con-f-use on August 21, 2014, 12:21:10 pmAttention on this. The power loss thing is the easy one. But there are systems that "sometimes" shortly fail, constantly try to reconnect, and this way make the network unusable for all camera's.So you need someone that takes a look from time to time, and restarts the system if anything goes wrong. And it will go wrong. If the user is aware of this possibility, it's ok, but don't make him expect he has a bullet proof system for his 1000/3 dollars.Quote from: con-f-use on August 21, 2014, 12:21:10 pmEvery cheap IP cam I know is easy to install for someone with your profileQuote from: con-f-use on August 21, 2014, 12:21:10 pmDay/night cam with IR-cut is all you need. For outdoor, buy an outdoor model because otherwise condensation will blur the images.Quote from: con-f-use on August 21, 2014, 12:21:10 pmI don't like Wlan for this, it's an additional source of problems, with lower bandwidth, but sometimes it is not possible otherwise.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2014, 06:39:21 pm
content: I imagined some hood running off with a lamp from a lobby and taking a leak in a potted plant