HELP to choose camera just for detection in daylight. No photos/video need - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nikoum
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 06:20:49 am
content: Hello everybody I am new to the forum and completely ignorant on the subject of thermal imaging and I would like your help to choose the right camera with a budget up to 1000 euro.As the title says I would like a camera just for detecting birds in daylight condition in the countryside in an environment with thin bushes, leafs, grass and small trees up to 4 meters high, up to 10-15 meters away from me.I have read extensively through this forum and other (infrared-birding.blogspot.com, etc) and I have come up with the following, unless you can suggest others within the budget.Therm-app 9hz 19mm f 1.1 (999 euro)Thermal expert te q1 plus 9hz 13mm f 1 (there is a limited special offer for 999 euro where you get the te q1 body with two lenses 6.8mm and 13mm and the accessory kit)Flir e4 upgraded (1050 euro)Xinfrared xtherm ts3, but no idea where to buy and at what price (probably between 700 and 900)Seek compact Pro (430 euro) but not sure if it will be sufficient, although I have seen 2 videos with small bird detection at close distance in forests at nighttime.()This video shows a similar environment and is very close to what I intend to do in daytimeChinese HT-18, HT A1 , HT A2 (around 300 TO 400 euro) but not sure they can do the jobI do not care for taking photos or videos, I just want something that is adequately sensitive and will detect and show on camera the hot spots where the birds are in daylight.From the above I am more close the te-q1 because I can get two lenses and the accessory kit, but if I could do the job with compact pro, I would prefer to save the extra money.Thank you in advance for any suggestions/opinionsNikos

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:17:53 pm
content: The FLIR scout series of monoculars and binoculars is made for outdoor spotting and hunting. The TK is he very entry level, but you might be able to get a 240 or similar used for the price of your budget. You get 30hz and FLIRs DDE. Best is to visit and hunting store and ask for a demo to see if it works for you.

author: nikoum
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 03:23:51 pm
content: Thanks for your suggestion but i am not sure if the small resolution (160x120) will be adequate for small birds to register in the screen. Also i think that its rather difficult to inspect an area that close (up to 15 - 20 meters all around) with a monocular, rather with a mobile phone screen of 6 inch size or a tablet screen. Anyway from your experience do you have an opinion of which of the above alternatives would be more adequate, or maybe all or all excluding the Chinese ?

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 12:01:19 am
content: It will be difficult no matter the camera. Foliage blocks thermal radiation pretty effectively. In the daytime with heat from the sun on the foliage it will be doubly bad. I've got a very large wooded yard and have a tough time seeing birds in trees unless they're in branches right on the edge of a clearing. Sometimes if you get closer tiny little bright spots can be made out through the leaves then investigated further to find animals. But ID'ing them at distance is virtually impossible without a tele lens.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 01:48:35 pm
content: In order to see birds as you want, I think you'll need a camera where you can set the low and high temperature points (or at least have a 'highlight hotter than' function).The big problem, as has been alluded to, is that there is a very wide dynamic range in worst-case conditions, ie sky (which might read -20°C even in daylight) and foliage or branches, which are likely to be up to 25-30°C in some conditions. Birds, which are well insulated by their feathers, are going to appear very close in temperature to their surroundings and therefore will be difficult to differentiate from foliage.I have done some experiments on this with a ThermApp 384x288 camera and decent lenses and found, generally speaking, birds behind foliage are not an easy target. Even when there are no leaves to hide behind they can be a challenge - see below (click to embiggen and learn more about each image).Even when you're up-close and personal with a bird it can be relatively hard to see because their feathers provide such a fantastic layer of insulation. The outer layer generally adopts ambient temperature, whatever that may be (and is likely to be the same as the trees & foliage), keeping their owner warm or, in some cases, shielding them from heat.(You can alsosee a thermal video of this birdwhich further demonstrates the point).Sometimes, though, you do get lucky and birds stand out like the proverbial sore thumb. But my experience to date is that it's rare to get good detection if there is much in the way of vegetation.Sorry I can't offer any really good solutions. I suspect all the thermal cameras mentioned by the OP will have more or less the same results as I got with the ThermApp used for all the images posted here. A good 'Night Vision' modemightwork better but I have yet to try that: once I realised I couldn't generally see the birds in the trees in my back garden I sort-of lost interest in them and moved onto other things.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 01:56:40 pm
content: Even things you'd expect to be pretty easy to spot using a thermal camera can blend in to their surroundings. Even the body of a sheep can be pretty hard to spot in the thermal range because they come wrapped in such good insulation. That's probably why woolly jumpers are so popular.

author: nikoum
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 02:28:16 am
content: Thank you very much eKretz and Ultrapurple for your time and replies. I can see the difficulty of detecting birds because of their feathers and the foliage they are hiding, but the use of thermal camera in my case, is much better than not having it. From the video above and also Ultrapurples photos ( great photos) and others i have seen i get the general idea of how things are for my situation. I hope though that the use of thermal will assist me greatly in detecting at least bright spots in the environment and the distances i mention in my initial post.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 02:48:26 am
content: Even though you stated that your aren't looking to capture any video or photos, software is also important for you. You would want something that can lock a palette in min/max and scaling as we as give you an alert or a marker for the hottest pixel.Something else to thing about is refresh rate. 30hz will give you a huge advantage over all those limited 8.7hz devices because looking around is smoother.I advise you to find a high-end hardware store or outdoor/hunting supplier and demo a few devices. Or rent a device for a day and see if it even works for your task of detecting birds easier then with normal binoculars and a little bit of patience. Most people go out to use their thermal cameras or scopes because you can't use your eyes and the majority of birds sleep at night.Phone dongles always require s phone, they trade ruggedness for price in most cases but also allow for more software to play with. It is also important to have a good phone with you. Your price range allows for the only reasonable suggestion to be a phone dongle with 30hz and a lens option that gives you a more narrow fov of 32° diagonally(that would be ~13mm lens for a 384*288 17µm sensor)- this allows your tiny birds to be more then a few pixels but needs you too look around a little more.Take a look at the example images you can find on the manufacturers website and here to see what internal post processing you like most.Other options would be a used FLIR scout or rifle scope to have a dedicated device that is rugged and can be used in rain for example. They have dedicated software made for detection with palettes, enhancements and sometimes even alarms. Or a used and hacked E4, that can sometimes be found at lower pricepoint. You have to consult the various threads on the libration to try and figure out if you found a willing model.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 06:23:32 am
content: I agree with Ultrapurple and Vipitis - if you do want to do this, it's absolutely crucial to get a camera that has manual temperature range adjustment. That will give you the best chance to detect the small amounts of IR radiation you'll need to see to detect a very hard target. I think I have a few images on my computer that might give you an idea how difficult it will be, let me check.

author: nikoum
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 09:34:25 am
content: Unfortunately vipitis in my country (Greece) stores that sell such products, they usually do not have them in stock and even if they have they do not open the boxes and also sell only a few high end models at thousands of euro prices. Regarding the models i mention in my first post only the seek compact basic is sold here at 380 euro and the seek reveal basic at 500 euro but these are not considered by me.So my only resource is Ebay UK hoping that i find something from a European country so that i do not have to pay import taxes here which are almost 60% of the price. For instance i cannot buy the Therm-App in eBay as it is only sold from Israel (non EEC). I live in a beautiful country but otherwise it sucks. So as you see i do not have many options.Just an hour ago I got an offer from an Austrian reseller for a TE-Q1 PLUS for 700 euro, Demo model in new condition with 2 year guarantee which i am thinking about, but i am a bit hesitant because of the 13mm lens compared to the 19mm of Therm-App and the lack of other software except the stock. Now concerning the higher 30hz I thought that it matters mostly on moving targets but maybe i am wrong. So actually i am only left with this choise and the seek compact pro but i do not know if it will be adequate for my purpose.@ eKretz Waiting to see if you find these photos and maybe tell me which camera was usedThank you all again for your interest and advises

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 12:22:05 pm
content: Quote from: nikoum on January 04, 2019, 09:34:25 amYes you can buy a Therm-App very easily in the EU, including Greece. You will have to pay the import costs (VAT or other local taxes) but you can definitely buy any of the 9Hz cameras with no formalities. The 25Hz cameras require you to sign a single piece of paper to say what you want it for - "hobby use" is good enough.Please send me a personal message (PM me) if you need any help or other guidance on this. I am not a representative of (or paid by) Opgal but I have been using the ThermApp cameras for a long time and find them very good. I have purchased three so far. I have a good relationship with some of the key people at Opgal.

author: nikoum
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 05:08:02 pm
content: Yes i know i can buy the Therm-App in ebay but as i mentioned before, i will have to pay an extra 60% (600 euro on top of the price) in import taxes and vat, which is well over my budget. Anyway what do you think of TE-Q1 PLUS which from what i have read in this forum is almost as good as the Therm-App, but lacks in software.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 03:38:29 pm
content: I am running an upgraded FLIR E40, I took a look for those images but didn't find the ones I was thinking of. I'll look further later and see if I can find them. The images are of birds in a bush, and not far inside, but they're still barely visible even from close up.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 04:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: nikoum on January 04, 2019, 05:08:02 pmSend me a PM.

author: Thermal_Enthusiast_01
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 14, 2019, 11:41:31 am
content: Hello,I connect the Ht-a1 thermal sensor to my PC and it is the same signature as the Seek thermal sensorUSB \ VID_289D & PID_0010 & REV_0100 & MI_01USB \ VID_289D & PID_0010 & MI_01but zadig have no driver for com.thermal.pir206.1why not ?Have any on the com.thermal.pir206.1 driver for my ......Many Thanks !Inthu